# Kashmir | News & Discussions.



## foxhound

Salaam!

News update: 

Ref:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6243946.stm

*Indian soldiers 'paraded naked' *
By Altaf Hussain 
BBC News, Srinagar 



Two Indian soldiers have been paraded naked for allegedly attempting to rape a girl in Indian-administered Kashmir, police say. 
Angry residents in Kunan village near the northern town of Bandipora beat up the soldiers, stripped them bare and paraded them through the market. 

*Police have charged the soldiers with attempted rape.* 

An army spokesman said the charges were baseless, and that the villagers had been incited by "hardliners". 

Reports quoting local residents say that the two soldiers, dressed in civilian attire, forcibly entered a house in the village of Kunan on Tuesday evening. 

The soldiers are said to have posed as militants and asked the family for food and shelter. 

'Gathering intelligence' 

The reports said that the soldiers allegedly attempted to rape a teenage girl in the house. 

When the girl raised the alarm, neighbours rushed in and joined by the family, beat up the soldiers, stripped them, shaved their heads and smeared soot on their faces, witnesses say. 

The soldiers were then paraded naked through the local market by the angry mob, who also shouted slogans against the army. 

Police fired tear gas shells and fired in the air to break up the demonstration before taking the soldiers into custody. 

Army spokesman Colonel Manjinder Singh said that the soldiers had gone to the village to collect intelligence. 

He said some "hardliners" had levelled false allegations against them, and incited the residents.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Adux

Serve's them right if true, as you can see Police have already registered the case

Reactions: Like Like:
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## foxhound

Further Update:

Ref:http://www.dawn.com/2007/06/27/welcome.htm

Rapist Indian soldiers caught red-handed in occupied Kashmir SRINAGAR, occupied Kashmir, June 27 (AFP) &#8211; Police in occupied Kashmir had to fire shots in the air to rescue two Indian soldiers accused by furious villagers of trying to rape a 17-year-old Muslim girl, authorities and residents said Wednesday. The two plain-clothes soldiers had their scalps shaved and faces blackened after being overpowered by villagers in Kunan, near the town of Srinagar. &#8220;The two army men in civil dress entered our house demanding food and shelter. They asked my mother to leave and tried to rape me,&#8221; the unnamed victim of the alleged assault was quoted as saying by a local news agency. &#8220;I resisted and screamed and my neighbours rescued me,&#8221; she was quoted as saying. Police used batons and fired shots in the air to rescue the two while they were being paraded in a nearby town late on Tuesday. &#8220;The two are with us,&#8221; local police officer Khalid Ahmed told AFP from Bandipora town, adding police had also registered a complaint of sexual assault. &#8220;The two soldiers were on an information gathering mission when they were taken hostage by militant sympathisers,&#8221; army spokesman Colonel Manjinder Singh said. An 18-year-old insurgency and freedom movement has left more than 42,000 people dead, a third of them civilians, in occupied Kashmir, according to official figures. (Posted @ 11:50 PST)


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## Bull

If there were intention was to rape and was to do so dressed up as militants then how come they were not armed?


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## Adux

There are always two sides to a story..Trump charges for government compensation is routine thing in the valley, but yes we also have our bad apples; the story doesnt add up. But any ways I hope the girl gets out of her trauma fast and get on with life. If she deserves justice, hope that is done quick. Which has been the case now a days, especially last weeks sentencing of army personnel by the army JAG court


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## Neo

If guilty I hope somebody castrates these bashtards! 
Na rahe ga baans, na bajay gi baansuri.


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## Adux

Hey hey, There are people over here who dont understand Hindi/Urdu, can we please stick on to the Queen MOM's english


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## Bull

Neo said:


> If guilty I hope somebody castrates these bashtards!
> *Na rahe ga baans, na bajay gi baansuri*.



I just hope it means 'nasty punishment to those culprits'.


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## Neo

You speak urdu don't you?
Ask Malay to translate it for the Mallu's.


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## Bull

Neo said:


> You speak urdu don't you?
> Ask Malay to translate it for the Mallu's.



ok..i speak hindi...urdu those common words i can understand.


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## Adux

I do, but i cant trouble to actually decipher it...lets all go back to our mother tongue english..lol



Neo said:


> Ask Malay to translate it for the Mallu's.




Worst joke of the century goes for this,

Its official now , Neo aint getting any action now a days


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## Neo

You'd be surprised....don't forget that I wear an airline uniform every day which does half the work....


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## Adux

Neo said:


> You'd be surprised....don't forget that I wear an airline uniform every day which does half the work....



THose skirts you wear are pretty nice aint it love...


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## Bull

Adux said:


> THose skirts you wear are pretty nice aint it love...



lol.....owned.


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## Neo

Seems like somebody's developped a crush on me...


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## Adux

I need reps for post#13...hehe


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## akzaman

*A brief history of Kashmir and the cause of the conflict*

According to the instruments of partition of India in 1947, the rulers of princely states were given the choice to freely accede to either India or Pakistan, or to remain independent. They were, however, advised to accede to the contiguous dominion, taking into consideration the geographical and ethnic issues.

In Kashmir, however, the Maharajah hesitated. The principally Muslim population having seen the early and covert arrival of Indian troops, rebelled and things got out of the Maharajah's hands. The people of Kashmir were undoubtedly demanding to join Pakistan. The Maharajah, fearing tribal warfare, eventually gave way to the Indian pressure and agreed to join India by 'signing' the Instrument of Accession on 26th October 1947. Kashmir was provisionally accepted into the Indian Union pending a free and impartial plebiscite. This was spelled out in a letter from the Governor General of India, Lord Mountbatten, to the Maharajah on 27th October 1947. In the letter, accepting the Accession, Mountbatten made it clear that the state would only be incorporated into the Indian Union after a reference had been made to the people of Kashmir. Having accepted the principle of a plebiscite, India has since obstructed all attempts at arranging one.

Heavy fighting took place in 1947-48 between the Indian and Pakistani forces over Kashmir. On 1st January 1949 a cease-fire was declared which created the first Line-of-Control.

In 1957 the state was, in effect, incorporated into the Indian Union under a new Constitution. This was done in direct contravention of the standing UN resolutions and the conditions of the Instrument of Accession. The article was rushed through by the then puppet state government of Bakshi Ghulam Mohammed; people of Kashmir were not consulted.

Heavy fighting broke out again in 1965 between India and Pakistan over Kashmir. A cease-fire was established in September 1965. Indian Prime Minister, Lal Bhadur Shastri, and Pakistani President, M Ayub Khan, signed the Tashkent agreement on 1st January 1966. They resolved to try to end the dispute by peaceful means.

In 1971 civil war broke out in East Pakistan and Indian forces again fought the Pakistani forces in Kashmir. This resulted in a new cease-fire and the signing of the Shimla Agreement by Indira Ghandi and Z A Bhutto. The Shimla Agreement basically reiterated the promises made in Tashkent.

Since the 1971 war, the situation may have been described as stalemate with India in control of much the larger part of Kashmir, and doing everything to emphasis her claim de jur. However, the dream of freedom from India never died; it was only suppressed from time to time by the Indians by using puppet state governments.

Guardian on 14th July 1970 reports that it is "ironic that India's position in Kashmir should be increasingly challenged from within at a time when Kashmir's status as a major unsettled international dispute is declining".

Hindustan Times of August 1970 reports, "In the Kashmir People's Convention held in Srinagar in the summer of 1970, but for a few feeble voices in our [India's] favour, most of the delegates favoured either accession to Pakistan or creation of an independent Kashmir".

The close of 1989 saw the beginning of the renewed struggle for freedom of Kashmir. The Kashmiris started to arm themselves to resist the Indian occupation. The then state government, headed by Dr Farooq Abdullah, was dissolved and the state placed in direct control of the governor. Since then the struggle for freedom and democracy has intensified.

Source: http://www.ummah.org.uk/kashmir/history.htm


Kashmir belongs to the Muslims, not Hindu India.

Why should it go to Hindu India when it is a Muslim majority state so it should in all fairness go to Pakistan? Why does the Indian government avoid a plebiscite to decide where it should go?

One hypocritical act by the UN (at that time called The League of Nations) was to allow Gujarat to go to India, it was hypocritical because the ruler of Gujarat was a Muslim and he chose to accede his state to Pakistan yet Gujarat was given to India, but using that logic of giving a state to a country by way of it's religious majority (Gujarat is a Hindu majority state) should have seen the British or the UN (League of Nations at that time) unilaterally giving Kashmir over to Pakistan because it was a Muslim majority state! This was the genesis of the problem which continues today. It is the desire for this freedom from India by Kashmiri groups which gets condemned as terrorism by the UN or nations such as the US, who provide India with support for it's stance on Kashmir. Before Kashmir was invaded by India, the conditions prevalent in Kashmir before it's illegal invasion were:

"During the uncertain times surrounding partition in 1947, an entirely indigenous revolt against the rule of the Maharaja broke out in the Kashmiri town of Poonch. Starting in June 1947, two months before the Transfer of Power, a no-tax campaign began which evolved rapidly into a popular secessionist movement. We may note that UN mediator Sir Oxford Dixon records that the movements of external forces into the region occurred in October 1947, and later in May 1948  long after the popular indigenous protest movement of June 1947. As is noted by both Alastair Lamb and Michael Kolodner then, this revolt began indigenously, rooted in the sentiments of the majority of Kashmiris. As the Poonch troubles continued, Pakistan was faced with three options to deal with the Muslim uprising - in Lambs words: to ignore what was going on and leave the Poonch Muslims to their fate, to assist the Hindu Maharaja in suppressing the rebellion, or to permit (be it overtly or covertly, officially or unofficially) some degree of material assistance to reach the rebels from or over Pakistani territory."

- The rape of Kashmir by Nafeez Mosaddeq

India then invaded in 1947 after Pathan tribes from Pakistan infiltrated into Kashmir to defend Kashmiri's who were apparently heavily burdened by the ruling Hindu Maharaja:

"In Summer 1947 the Hindu Maharajah of Kashmir started a provocative campaign of oppression, banning pro-Pakistani newspapers, applying onerous new taxes and burning down villages." - Sue the British Bandits, by John-Paul Leonard.

After India invaded and Kashmir's ruler decided to join India irrespective of the wishes of the people of Kashmir, a war started between India and Pakistan, to which the UN proposed the resolution:

"A - RESTORATION OF PEACE AND ORDER 

1. The Government of Pakistan should undertake to use its best endeavours: 

(a) To secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purposes of fighting, and to prevent any intrusion into the State of such elements and any furnishing of material aid to those fighting in the State; 

(b.) To make known to all concerned that the measures indicated in this and the following paragraphs provide full freedom to all subjects of the State, regardless of creed, caste, or party, to express their views and to vote on the question of the accession of the State, and that therefore they should cooperate in the maintenance of peace and order. 

2. The Government of India should: 

(a) When it is established to the satisfaction of the Commission set up in accordance with the Council's Resolution 39 (1948) that the tribesmen are withdrawing and that arrangements for the cessation of the fighting have become effective, put into operation in consultation with the Commission a plan for withdrawing their own forces from Jammu and Kashmir and reducing them progressively to the minimum strength required for the support of the civil power in the maintenance of law and order; 

(b.) Make known that the withdrawal is taking place in stages and announce the completion of each stage;" - UN document

Even this was not fair as point 2. (a) of the document calls for the Indians to maintain a minimal presence in Kashmir, even though the only claim it had to Kashmir at that time was the signing of a treaty by it's non-Muslim ruler to give Kashmir to India, which flew in the face of the natives who wanted to go to Pakistan. Furthermore this treaty violated the UN principles of the right to accession based on the wishes of the majority. It was also a major piece of hypocrisy because the ruler of Gujurat was a Muslim, and he chose to accede to Pakistan, yet India invaded and annexed Gujurat on the basis that it was a Hindu majority state and the people overwhelmingly wanted to go to India, the UN and British approved of this, yet when we saw the reverse happen in Kashmir with the ruler opting to accede to a state which the majority of his subjects did not want to go to, we saw that this was tacitly approved by the UN and British by their accepting of Indian sovereignty over Kashmir with their decision to refer to a plebiscite even though overwhelmingly the people already wanted to accede to Pakistan. So at one point (Gujurat) the British and UN (then the League of Nations) chose to uphold the principle that a state of a certain religious majority should go to the nation with that religious majority (Hindu majority states go to Hindu India and Muslim majority states go to Muslim Pakistan), otherwise known as the "two-state policy" when India invaded Gujurat (with it's Muslim Prince deciding to go to Pakistan which prompted the Indians to invade) with no condemnation either from the British or the UN, but at another point (Kashmir) they chose not to uphold that very same principal that a state goes to the nation with that states religious majority, even though the parallel with Gujurat is the same only reversed, and yet they somehow legitimised India's rule over Muslim Kashmir. British hypocrisy is well documented in this case, I refer you to this link; click here.

The above UN resolution is criticised as UN complicity:

"What look like olive leaves on the UN seal really come from a fig tree. UN resolution #48 from 1948 calls for Pakistan to remove irregular guerrillas BEFORE India removes its regular army - although Kashmir is Pakistani by British and International rules, and the irregulars may or may not be from outside Kashmir: they are just a convenient red herring. Such conscience-numbing mumbo-jumbo resolutions are merely a guarantee of eternal military occupation, a license for progressive ethnic cleansing and eventual complete absorption by non-Muslim invaders." - Sue the British Bandits, by John-Paul Leonard.

This British complicity is further elaborated by way of highlighting certain errors in the Partition Plan:

"For most Princely States, it was a foregone conclusion that they would join Pakistan or India, whichever their population dictated. Otherwise, they would have been surrounded by territory of the opposite state. In Jammu and Kashmir, however, this choice was not simple or straightforward: the Maharaja was a Hindu who ruled over a predominantly Muslim population. Just as in Palestine, the British role appears to have been deliberately designed to bypass the right of the indigenous Kashmiri population to self-determination. As has been noted by British historian and Kashmir authority Alastair Lamb, whose research on the Kashmir issue is the most complete and impartial, Lord Mountbatten, the British Viceroy, engineered Partition in such a way that Jammu and Kashmir would inevitably go to India regardless of the sentiments of the indigenous population. At the very least, it seems evident that he tampered with the process sufficiently to leave that option wide open. By allocating the Gurdaspur district of the Punjab to India, even though it ought to have gone to Pakistan by the logic of partition, the possibility of Jammu and Kashmir joining India was left open. Had Gurdaspur gone to Pakistan, there would have been no land-route connecting India to Kashmir. The evidence, as Lamb observes, suggests that Mountbatten meddled with the proceedings of the Radcliffe Commission, whose job it was to assign territories to either Pakistan or India, intending India rather than Pakistan to be the guardian of the Northern Frontier because he had more trust in Indias secular leadership. In this respect, the parallel between Palestine and Kashmir is quite obvious. In both cases, British colonial manipulation resulted in the violation of the right of a people to self-determination, and the blocking of the emergence of a legitimate independent state." - The rape of Kashmir by Nafeez Mosaddeq

With regards to the legality of India's occupation:

"As Alastair Lamb records, included in the Instrument of Accession itself was a special clause requiring a plebiscite to determine the wishes of the people once law and order had been reestablished. The Governor-Generals further confirmation that the question of the statess accession should be settled by a reference to the people, actually concords with the Independence Act of 1947: An Indian State shall be deemed to have acceded to the Dominion if the Governor General has signified the acceptance of an Instrument of Accession executed by the Ruler thereof. For the Governor General Lord Mountbatten did not accept the Instrument of Accession unconditionally. Rather, in Lord Mountbattens very letter signifying his provisional and conditional acceptance of the Instrument of Accession signed by the Maharajah, we find the following:

My dear Maharaja Sahib,

Your Highness letter dated 26 October has been delivered to me by Mr. V. P. Menon. In the special circumstances mentioned by your Highness my Government have decided to accept the accession of Kashmir State to the Dominion of India. Consistently with their policy that in the case of any State where the issue of accession has been the subject of dispute, the question if accession should be decided in accordance with the wishes of the people of the State, it is my Governments wish that as soon as law and order have been restored in Kashmir and her soil cleared of the invader the question of the States accession should be settled by a reference to the people.

Unlike other states, therefore, Kashmir had acceded to India conditionally and that conditional integration was accepted without much serious misgiving by Indias post-Independence leadership. Human Rights Watch describes the process as conditional accession to India. Thus there is no other choice for the leadership in New Delhi but to come to terms with the historical legacy of the unique nature of the social-contract with the people of Kashmir. But India has refused to do this. Consequently, the accession to India was and remains illegal. Michael Kolodner thus concludes: There is some question as to the chronology of the accession and of Indian intervention, including the fact that the Patiala brigade, officially troops of the Indian Union after that states accession, was in Jammu and Kashmir prior to the accession of Jammu and Kashmir. These questions of timing and the need for a plebiscite lead to significant doubts about Indias claim to the absolute legality of the Maharajas accession in 1947." - The rape of Kashmir by Nafeez Mosaddeq

The rest is history, to this day we see no UN intervention in this, which has been described by the CIA as the most likely place in which a nuclear war will be fought over, this should of course speed the process of forcing India to hold a plebiscite but of course it has not, mainly due to UN and Western inaction over this while they repeatedly condemn the guerrilla groups who emerged who want to get rid of the Indian occupying forces (a desire supported by UN resolutions which allow for groups to oppose occupying forces) as "terrorists".

Atrocities committed by the Indian army on Muslims and Sikhs in Kashmir:

Not a new problem. During 1947 Partition 500,000 Muslims were evicted from (Hindu) Jammu; 200,000 "disappeared". 

The international human rights organisations, medical relief, humanitarian assistance and the media have been officially denied access to Indian-occupied Kashmir but serious abuses by the Indian security forces are nevertheless well-documented

What the human rights organisations say:

Amnesty International: The forces use torture as a matter of daily routine. ...Amnesty believes that thousands of prisoners have died as a result over the past decade. Rape is frequently used. The Indian government could stop torture if it tried

Asia Watch: In efforts to crush the militant movement, Indian government forces have violated the laws of war protecting civilians, engaged in summary execution of suspected militants and reprisal killings of civilians. Some 200 extra-judicial killings by government forces since the beginning of 1990. Torture is widespread

International Federation of Human Rights Groups (France) Indian security forces operate with complete impunity. Rule of law has broken down completely. Draconian legislation only serves to encourage brutality and violence by security forces much of whose conduct is in flagrant violation of fundamental human rights and international law - and India's own constitution

What the media say:

Times 12 August 1993: "Indian torturers fail to break Kashmir's will". 
Times 16 August 1994 (editorial): "Kashmir may be territory disputed by India and Pakistan - and the UN regards it as such - but its people are entitled to be consulted in the simple matter of their own future"

Observer 13 Nov 1994: "While there is no doubt the army is involved in some of the grisly extra-judicial executions, New Delhi has also created special commando units licensed to kill" 

Source: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/wkfm/hr_abi.htm

India: Use of the Public Security Act in Jammu and Kashmir


The arbitrary arrest and detention of those peacefully voicing dissent is continuing in Jammu and Kashmir, India, with the Public Security Act (PSA) increasingly being used to punish those who criticise the government, Amnesty International warned today.

Political activists were detained and beaten last week following public protests over the killing of six women. Amnesty International is calling for the immediate release of those who remain in detention and considers them to be prisoners of conscience, held solely for the peaceful exercise of their right to freedom of expression and association.

On 8 June 2001 an unidentified attacker threw a hand grenade at a group of women picnicking at a shrine in Chara-e-Sharief. Four women were killed outright and two more died later of their injuries. Local observers believe that the attacker was a member of the Special Operations Group [SOG] which is a division of the police created to deal with militancy. Amnesty International urges the government of Jammu and Kashmir to immediately initiate an independent, impartial and transparent inquiry into this incident.

Several associates of the Human Rights Front, including their patron Mr Untoo, were taken from their homes at around 4:00am on the 9th June and held in detention until that evening. At the same time members of the Islamic Students League were also picked up and placed in preventive detention. A two year detention order was issued for Shakil Ahmad Bakhshi, a student leader under the Public Safety Act.

Dr Hubbi, a leader of the All Parties Hurriyet Conference (APHC) and vice Chairman of the Jammu and Kashmir People's Conference, and his wife attended a demonstration on Saturday 9 June. At the demonstration the couple were beaten by police and Dr Hubbi was taken into preventive detention. A two year detention order was issued against Dr Hubbi who is now being held in Kotbalwal jail. There are reports that the home of Dr Hubbi's brother, Abdul Kabir Hubbi, was also raided by the SOG on the night of 12 June. Dr Hubbi, who has no connections with the armed opposition, has served earlier periods in preventive detention, including eight months in 1999- 2000 along with 25 other leaders of the APHC.

Other APHC leaders including Shahidul Islam and Javed Ahmad Mir were also arrested. Amnesty International has also seen reports that APHC leader Sheikh Abdul Aziz was stopped from attending the demonstration by the police at Awantipora and that, together with activists Mukhtar Waza, Zahoor Sheikh and Khalil Ahmad Khalil, he was beaten by police.

Amnesty International is concerned about the widespread use of excessive force by the police when detaining activists. In March 2001, Syed Shah Geelani, who is known to the authorities as having a serious heart disease, was pushed to the floor and beaten unconscious by police when he was being released from detention.

Amnesty International is also concerned that the PSA continues to be abused in Jammu and Kashmir to detain opposition politicians. AI is aware of many cases of activists being held for years without recourse to the judicial process. As most people detained under the PSA are denied access to lawyers and family members, they also run a high risk of being subjected to torture or ill-treatment.

The Jammu and Kashmir Public Safety Act of 1978 is the main law relating to preventive detention in Jammu and Kashmir and permits administrative detention without trial for a period of up to one year if a person is deemed likely to act in a way "prejudicial to the maintenance of public order" or up to two years if their actions are likely to be "prejudicial to the safety of the state". Source: http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/ASA200...RIES\INDIA 

A Brief Catalogue of Indian Atrocities in Kashmir 

Source: http://www.jamiat.org.za/whatsnew/kashmiri.html

This is a documentary testimony of horror in Indian Occupied Kashmir; of atrocities perpetrated on a people wanting to end foreign military occupation of their homeland. Since the beginning of the recent uprising in January 1990, the Kashmiris have been demanding and end to 48 years of Indian forced rule. What is depicted here is only part of the reality of Indian atrocities since no journalists, human rights and humanitarian organisations, or tourists were allowed to enter Occupied Kashmir until very recently. The real story will be told only when Indian occupation forces have left Kashmir.

The extent of torture, killings and rapes perpetrated on Kashmiri people by Indian forces are already creating a new record of atrocities. Gouging of eyes, cutting off of men's genitals, use of ever new methods of torture and endless curfews would shame Hitler's SS death squads. The Indian occupation army's deviltry such as gang-rapes, burning of entire villages and crops, destruction of economic life of whole communities and genocide of the Kashmiri people in defiance of international human rights laws, are everyday affairs.

(Dr Ayyub Thakur, President-World Kashmir Freedom Movement).

TORTURE AND CUSTODIAL DEATHS TORTURE

Indian armed forces have let loose a reign of terror and are pursuing with the policy of unabated killings, torture and brutal methods of killings in Kashmir State since 1989. Despite the fact that international community and Human Rights Organizations all over the World have registered constant protests against this policy of Indian Government in Kashmir, no change is visible in the acts of repressions and suppression at the hands of forces. In fact the death due to torture and in custody have alarmingly increased.

Many such incidents go un-noticed due to severe restrictions on the movement of people, constant crackdowns, curfews and other repressive measures by the forces. However, the Forum has been able to collect details about some such incidents which are based on personal information, print and electronic media and data collected by Human Rights activists. The officials and armed forces are in the habit of naming such killings as the result of so called encounters. But the fact of the situation is that most of such arrests are made during crackdown operations where people of the area are collected first, bodily searched before their entry in the specified area and then subjected to identification. The arrests of the people are made when such persons are totally unarmed and there is no possibility of any encounter with the forces. Such fake encounters are carved out by the forces in order to save themselves from the wrath of international community and over all public resentment.

Since 1989, an estimated 40,000 Kashmiris have been killed by the Indian forces stationed in Kashmir. For the last five years the people of the State have intensified their efforts in order to invite the attention of the world community towards the "Kashmir Dispute", though the people of the State had been fighting for their just cause peacefully for the last forty eight years. Indian Government throughout these four decades has been suppressing the people by illegal use of force, putting them into the jails/ Interrogation centres etc. under draconian laws. Whenever any person demanded holding of " Plebiscite", he has been put behind the bars.

The Indian Forces, stationed in Kashmir, have been given a free hand to kill any person they choose. These powers have been given to them under the draconian laws like "Disturbed Areas Act of 1990" and "Indian Armed Forces Act of 1990". Indifference shown by world community to the miseries of people, have encouraged and given a free hand to armed forces, to deal with the people, as they like. In October 1992, the Indian Armed forces started to intensify the killing of people immediately after their arrest. These operations have been carried out under the code name of "Operation Tiger", "Operation Eagle" and "Operation Shiva". Now the armed forces have resorted to another policy of "Catch and Kill" which means that no sooner a person is taken into custody, within minutes he is brutally tortured and killed. The dead body is then thrown into the street. In other cases, innocent civilians are arrested and taken to border areas where they are shot. The Indian government then publicises that these people were militants killed in armed encounters with the troops.

It is common practise for the paramilitary forces to walk into a quiet village/town and start shooting indiscriminately, killing innocent and unarmed civilians - all under the pretence of crack-down operations against the Freedom-Fighters. In most cases, innocent civilians are being killed, women gang-raped and properties set on fire.

Testimonies of Young and old women of Kunan Pushpora Kashmir

Gang rape victims

It was one dreaded night when the village of Kunan Pushpora was attacked by a unit from the Indian army camped about ten miles from the village. All the men of the village were rounded up and locked away in a room of an empty house. The soldiers carried bottles of alcohol in their hands and were drinking, swearing and shouting. They had been in the village before, looking for militants.

They turned the lights off and used torches to enter all the homes. When the carnage was over, around 60 women were found lying in their homes either unconscious or weeping in anguish and pain. They had been raped. The victims were old women as well as very young female children who will now be facing problems for the rest of their lives, if they live this foray by the Indian army. Please read the rest at: http://www.kashmir.demon.co.uk/rape/index.htm

A catalogue of Indian atrocities with pictures:

http://www.ummah.net/kris/atrocities/index.html

After all this and the Western governments still say "India is fighting terrorism" when India it self is committing far worse crimes, plus Kashmir is meant to be a part of Pakistan, so why the hypocrisy? Recently in December 2001 the American government named all freedom-fighter groups in Kashmir as "terrorist" groups. Why? If it is because these "terrorists" (according to India) kill innocents then why does the US not name India as a terrorist nation when human rights groups have proven that India commits acts which are defined as terrorism and on an even larger scale?

Indeed, most of the massacres have been attributed to the Kashmiri militant groups yet no evidence has been given to prove that, and what is given by way of bodies has come under doubt with startling new revelations:

"The government in Indian-controlled Kashmir has acknowledged that DNA samples taken from five men blamed for the masscre of 35 Sikhs two years ago were tampered with. Samples were taken from the men only after protests in Kashmir by local people who insisted they were innocent, and were deliberately killed by the security forces in a stage-managed encounter. At the time, the authorities insisted they were foreign militants from the Lashkar-e-Toiba and Hizbul Mujahideen groups - although the groups themselves denied any involvement in the Sikh massacre. But allegations were made that they were in fact five local men picked up by the security forces and killed in a stage-managed encounter so they could be blamed for the massacre. The Indian authorities have in the past been accused by human rights groups of summary killings and other abuses in Kashmir - charges the government always denies." - Kashmir massacre sample "faked"; BBC report.

There is another report, though slightly lacking in historical oversight as the author misses some crucial facts about this conflict, nevertheless he highlights some interesting issues:

"This dismal story of state violence and deception is by no means unusual in Kashmir. Two weeks ago, a report in the Indian Express described how three so-called "militant infiltrators" who had been killed at the Kashmir border by Indian soldiers were local civilians. Such accounts show that while it is important for General Musharraf to end all Pakistani sponsorship of violence in India, the Hindu nationalist government of India has to do a lot more to earn the trust of the majority of Muslims who live in the valley of Kashmir." - The Guardian

This raises the possibility that Indian claims with regards to massacres being done by Kashmiri groups, even when they present "evidence" such as bodies and weapons cannot be taken as fact due to these reports which discredit Indian claims.


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## dabong1

Let me guess its "a few bad apples" in the indian army.


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## Bull

phuq whats the purpose of that enromous article. Post your comments man.


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## Adux

exactly!!!!


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## Bull

dabong1 said:


> Let me guess its "a few bad apples" in the indian army.



yes 2 to be precise.


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## joey

Conflicting reports, if true police has registered a case, a job well done, the locals forgot to put some buckets of mud at them..
If not true like the case of Army beating police in new year party in Calcutta fiasco, lets see.

Skull Buster you might want to check the talk with me and Neo on Pakistans one of the biggest triumph card over Kashmir, in indian mil section.

azkaman, How much you get paid for all this?  j/k.


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## akzaman

*Look at the atrocities of the Indian forces in Kashmir:*


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1...20338&q=kashmir


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## Bull

akzaman said:


> *Look at the atrocities of the Indian forces in Kashmir:*
> 
> 
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1...20338&q=kashmir



Much better. Post the link, if interested let the members go and read it.


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## Bull

this is a shame.


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## A.Rahman

Bull said:


> this is a shame.



if he had any self respect he wouldnt have tried to rape the girl in first place

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Bull

A.Rahman said:


> if he had any self respect in first place he wouldnt have tried to rape the girl in first place



So who said otherwise.?


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## Chrome9

Yeah sad stuff...


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## Adux

Bull,

The bugger doesnt get it that we could actually spit at our people who acts like this idiot above, they are used to have women delievered no justice like muktar mai.
We have army men, court-martiled, jailed and even hung for their crimes committed. While Muktar mai's rapist (A major in PAK army) walks scot free somewhere in pakistan and the president accuses the woman(victim) of cooking up a story, so that she can get a canadian passport. 
As usual this msg will get deleted, and this message undelievered. Pakistan as a society has a lot to do. But then again I am an Indian and what do I know


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## Bull

Adux said:


> Bull,
> 
> The bugger doesnt get it that we could actually spit at our people who acts like this idiot above, they are used to have women delievered no justice like muktar mai.
> We have army men, court-martiled, jailed and even hung for their crimes committed. While Muktar mai's rapist (A major in PAK army) walks scot free somewhere in pakistan and the president accuses the woman(victim) of cooking up a story, so that she can get a canadian passport.
> As usual this msg will get deleted, and this message undelievered. Pakistan as a society has a lot to do. But then again I am an Indian and what do I know



They can delete it but cannot deny it.


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## Bull

A.Rahman said:


> if he had any self respect he wouldnt have tried to rape the girl in first place



Whats the pt of a mod coming and trying to ignite a thread.


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## A.Rahman

Bull said:


> Whats the pt of a mod coming and trying to ignite a thread.



how am I igniting thread? Its a saying that If you cant face the consequences then don't do the act.


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## Neo

Bull said:


> They can delete it but cannot deny it.



Bull you're out of line here! 
You're challenging the integrity of the forum here and I take it as an insult!


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## Adux

Neo said:


> Bull you're out of line here!
> You're challenging the integrity of the forum here and I take it as an insult!



Neo, 

Who said that you are part of that "they"... You are never part of that group, never has been in my view. But that doesnt mean, there arent others.


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## A.Rahman

Adux said:


> Neo,
> 
> Who said that you are part of that "they"... You are never part of that group, never has been in my view. But that doesnt mean, there arent others.



Dont act smart; read the post again. It says "They" and Neo is in Moderators team; therefore he is included too


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## Adux

A.Rahman said:


> Dont act smart; read the post again. It says "They" and Neo is in Moderators team; therefore he is included too



Dont put yourself in Neo's shoes, i dont think you are worthy of it


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## akzaman

*DENIAL OF FREEDOM AND HUMAN RIGHTS:A REVIEW OF INDIAN REPRESSION
IN KASHMIR*

AN OVERVIEW

Indias unabated repression of the Kashmiri freedom struggle has entered its seventh year. For the past six ears, Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) has been one of the most troubled areas of the world. Life in this land, once widely regarded as an earthly paradise because of its unsurpassed natural beauty and the peacefulness of its mild mannered people, has been a nightmare since India unleashed its repressive machinery in 1989 when the Kashmiris, asserting their internationally-recognised right of self-determination, stepped up their demand for freedom from nearly 50 years of Indian colonial rule.

The suffering of the Kashmiri people has been traumatic. Many thousands of them have been killed, wounded and permanently disabled by the Indian security forces over the past six years. Hundreds of school children and others have been burnt alive, while thousands of women and young girls have been raped, and a greater number of men have been sexually incapacitated through torture. Well over 100,000 Kashmiri Muslims have been forced to flee their homes or have gone into hiding. Similarly, thousands of houses and shops have been either demolished or destroyed by fire, while hundreds of schools and hospitals have been burnt. Food stocks, crops and forestry worth several billion rupees have been burnt or destroyed.

The grave human rights situation in IHK has been documented and commented upon by numerous human rights groups and organisations. Such regional bodies include the Committee for Initiative on Kashmir (New Delhi); the Peoples Union for Civil Liberties (New Delhi); the Human Rights Commission (Srinagar, IHK); the International Human Rights Organization (Ludhiana, India); and the Institute of Kashmir Studies (Srinagar).1

International human rights organizations such as Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch/Asia. Federation Lnternationale Des Ligues Des Droits DelHome, Physicians for Human Rights have also issued alarming reports concerning the happenings in IHK, despite the difficulties these organizations have faced in monitoring the situation because the Indian government has denied them access to IHK.2

Back in 1990, the Committee for Initiative on Kashmir, an Indian human rights organization, found during their visit to IHK that "indiscriminate killings, arbitrary arrests, unlawful searches, unprovoked assaults on peaceful demonstrators and the complete dislocation of normal life due to the imposition of prolonged curfews and the blatant violations of human rights were not isolated instances but operative extensions of an official policy which was evident to the team members when they met senior administrators".3

A year later, Bahauddin Farooqi, former Chief Justice of Jammu and Kashmir High Court, put it succinctly, by saying: The abuse of human rights here is unprecedented... We have dealt with only the tip of the iceberg... In theory we are governed by the constitution, but in practice we are governed by methods unknown to law, unknown to any civilized society".4

More recently, alarmed by the "huge" scale of human rights violations in IHK, Amnesty International decided to publish its human rights reports on that disputed territory separately from the rest of India. By the end of December 1995, the Human Rights Watch/Asia catagorised IHK as among five territories with the worst human rights situation in the world.

Although the India-Pakistan dispute over Kashmir is among the earliest international problems to be introduced into the agenda of the United Nations Security Council, it is now the only major dispute that remains unresolved and unaddressed. While other significant issues (Palestine, Bosnia. Cambodia, Northern Ireland, Angola, Korea), have been resolved or are being resolved through sustained international efforts, Kashmir continues to burn against a background of international neglect.

Thousands of men, women and children continue to perish every year, while there seems to be no end in sight to Indias inflexible policy of subjugation which are in open defiance of several UN Security Council resolutions that stipulate a UN-supervised plebiscite to determine Kashmirs future. India has also reneged on its earlier commitments to seek a plebiscite to resolve its dispute with Pakistan peacefully.

The intensity of Indian repression of the Kashmiri freedom struggle and the scale of its military presence itself belie Indias claim of legitimacy in IHK. The methods employed by India to perpetuate its colonial rule and the magnitude of human rights violations that continue to be committed there are more gruesome than can be witnessed today in any other region of the world.

Indias policy of virtually cutting off the outside world from the happenings in IHK, the methods used by its security forces and the virtual collapse of the local administrative machinery, make it exceedingly difficult to gauge the full extent of the atrocities being committed there and the brutalities that have already taken place over the past six years.

Nevertheless, it is amply clear from the information painstakingly gathered by various human rights groups and international organisations, as well as from the limited information available from the Indian electronic and print media, that India is engaged in a repression of terrifying proportions in IHK and that, for humanitarian reasons alone, the world community should urgently undertake efforts to defuse the Kashmir crisis, just as it is engaged in defusing other major trouble-spots of the world.

Continued international neglect will only encourage India to persist with its policy of subjugation, in utter disregard of the human rights of millions of Kashmiri people and in contravention of its obligations under international conventions, just as it has done over the past six years.

INDIAN MILITARY PRESENCE IN IHK

IHK is the most militarised area in the world. Kashmir is also among the oldest disputed territories in the post-Second World War period. It is even older than the Arab-Israeli dispute over Palestine. As in the case of Palestine, Kashmir has been the cause of two wars between India and Pakistan in 1948 and 1965 as well as the scene of another armed conflict in 1971.

Grim resistance to Indian repression extends beyond the Vale of Kashmir into Jammu, especially its districts of Doda, Rajauni and Udhampur. The epicentre of the freedom struggle, however, Is the Valley which lies In the heart of Kashmir and which is historically the political and cultural centre of Kashmir.

Approximately 600,000 Indian security forces (both regular army soldiers and paramilitary personnel) have been deployed in IHK which covers an area of about 54,000 square miles and contains a population of around 7 million. An overwhelming majority of them are settled in the Valley which is predominantly Muslim, as well as in Jammu where Muslims are also in an overall majority.

Nowhere in the world are force concentrations in a disputed territory as high as they are in IHK. There is one Indian soldier for every 11 Kashmiris if an average is taken out for IHKs entire territory. Similarly, there are 11 soldiers for every one square mile of IHK. But such averages conceal the actual concentration of forces. The Ladakh region in IHK bordering China and Himachal Pradesh is virtually uninhabited for the most part, while more than half of IHKs population Is settled in the Valley which is merely 84 miles long and less than 25 miles wide, roughly totalling 1,900 square miles.

In Srinagar itself, approximately 77,000 security forces are deployed, while in the Valley as a whole there are over 100,000 army soldiers and about 138,000 paramilitaries, making an overall total of more than 2,40,000 security forces. Thus, in the Valley, there are more than 100 security personnel for every one square mile of territory. The deployment in Jammu exceeds 225.000 security personnel, consisting of more than 160,000 paramilitary forces and over 62,000 regular army soldiers.

New Delhi unconvincingly rejects lslamabads claim regarding the size of the Indian military presence in IHK even though this has been substantiated in detail by Pakistans Foreign Minister, Sardar Assef Ahmed Mi, at a press conference on July 14, 1995. He identified the various army and paramilitary formations as well as their manpower strength and deployment sites. (See, Annextures-A, B & C). He put the figure of regular army troops deployed in IHK at 3,22,510. This represents more than 25% of the total strength of the Indian army which is the fourth largest in the world (after China, Russia and the United States).

The combined strength of the more than six different paramilitary forces that have been deployed in IHK has been estimated at 2,40,950. This means that more than 50% of Indias total paramilitary force is engaged in LHK. In addition, there are approximately 40,000 personnel belonging to the IHK police force.

As disclosed by Pakistans Foreign Minister, India also inducted an additional force of about 43,000 security personnel in June-July 1995, consisting of about 5,000 regular army soldiers and some 38,000 paramilitaries. (See, Annex-D).

In denying the Pakistani estimate, India also overlooks the statement by one of its former Intelligence Chiefs, M.K. Narayanan, who reportedly said that the level of Indian security forces in IHK had skyrocketed to anywhere between 500,000 to 700,000 in 1994.5 Similarly, Voice of America has recently mentioned that India has deployed more than 500,000 security forces in IHK.6

CASUALTIES IN IHK

The full magnitude of casualties in IHK is difficult to determine. A major impediment are restrictions on the freedom of the press, especially denial of access to areas of military activity and civil disturbance, as well as continuing abuse of journalists by the security forces. As observed by the Committee to Protect Journalists, a New York-based organisation, in its report of July 1995: "Put simply, there is no freedom of press in Kashmir".7 As a consequence, newspapers reporting on IHK rely mainly on official press releases and coverage by state-sponsored news agencies.

There are various estimates of casualties in IHK, some more varied than others. For example, according to Asia Watch and Physicians for Human Rights, 6,000 people were killed in IHK during the initial 1990-92 period, while the report of the British Parliamentary Human Rights Group puts the casualties during that period roughly at somewhere between 10,000 and 25,000.8

In any case, such figures do not provide a complete picture because of the difficulties of monitoring all the casualty-causing activities of the Indian security forces. An obvious problem, for example, is that killings in remote border areas go almost completely unnoticed or they are not fully disclosed.

As reported by the Srinagar-based Jammu and Kashmir Bar Association, many innocent people are taken to border areas where they are shot dead in alleged encounters. To cover up such acts, it is then reported that some people were killed while attempting to cross the border to the Pakistani side to allegedly obtain training or to the other side as trained militants seeking to infiltrate IHK.

The full extent of custodial killings are also not known. For example, Ashok Jaitly, advisor to IHK Governor Gen. (Retd) Krishna Rao, admitted in an interview that he could not trace 81 Kashmiri youths who had disappeared after being arrested because the Indian security forces were not prepared to help him.9

Similarly, it is not known how many Kashmiris listed as "missing" have actually succumbed to so-called encounters with the security forces. Nor is it easy to separate the "missing" from those who are in hiding to save their lives and families. The total number of people reported as "missing or gone into hiding" exceeds 90,000, according to a pamphlet released by the All-Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC), which represents the Kashmiri freedom struggle).10

Of the various estimates of casualties, the lowest has been given by AFP which says that more than 12,000 people have died in IHK since 1989.11 Despite the continuing conflict in IHK, AFPs figure has remained somewhat static. VOA has mentioned a slightly higher figure of about 15,000 fatalities.12 Reuters estimate however differs greatly from both AFPs and VOAs. Citing local police and hospital sources, it says that over 20,000 people have perished in IHK over the past six years.13

Reuters estimate, too, can be considered to be on the low side partly because it relies on local police and hospital sources. While the local police, which has been sidelined by the security forces, would not be privy to all the killings, the local hospitals would only be able to count those who were brought to their premises. The functioning of hospitals has also been adversely affected by the conduct of Indian security forces who have shown little regard for the medical profession.

The Physicians for Human Rights, for example, reported that the security forces frequently force themselves into hospitals, beating patients and doctors, and preventing ambulance drivers from carrying the injured or dead. The patients are dragged from hospital beds while the medical staff are detained and assaulted during raids. Doctors and other human-rights activists who had kept record of such violations have been shot to death.

For example, Dr Abdul Ahad Guru, a leading heart surgeon at the Sher-Kashmir Medical Institute who had kept record of thousands of victims was shot dead in April 1993. Similarly, Harde Nath Wanchu, a human right activist who claimed to have proof of at least 150 killings by the Indian security forces in detention centres, was also shot dead in December 1992.14

Any estimate of killings must also take into account the admission by Indias former Chief of Intelligence. M.K. Narayanan, that 70% of the Kashmiri youth (or 35-40.000 young men) who allegedly sought training in Pakistan had been "neutralised".15

The figures mentioned by AFP, VOA and Reuter are also significantly lower than the ones given by some Indian journalists who claim a figure of 30,000 deaths or more.16 Over 30,000 deaths could mean any level above a minimum of 30,000 but less than 40,000. Indeed, even figures of more than 50,000 deaths have been mentioned. For example, Dr Farooq Abdullah, leader of the pro-India National Conference, has been quoted in an interview with BBC on November 4, 1995, as saying that 50,000 Kashmiri have been killed.17 This excludes casualties among the Indian security personnel.

The APHCs estimate of over 40,000 fatalities provides a more appropriate scale of killings in IHK since 1989. This also corresponds more closely with the estimates cited in the local IHK media.18 The estimate by Masood Hussain, an Indian specialist on human rights violations in IHK, lends further credence to this figure.19

As far as injuries are concerned, more than 20,000 Kashmiris have been wounded over the past six years on an average of over 3,500 injuries each year. A particularly disturbing feature of such casualties in the Kashmir conflict has been the injuries sustained by the civilian population. For example, according to the data compiled by the Jammu and Kashmir Council for Human Rights, more than 1,600 civilians were wounded in 1992 which is higher than the known incidence of injuries suffered by the Indian security forces or the freedom fighters in that year. This pattern has been fairly consistent over the past six years.

More disturbing is the number of people who have been disabled by injuries sustained by Kashmiris during torture at the detention centres or by indiscriminate firing by Indian security forces. According to the All-Parties Hurriyal. Conference, the number of disabled people totals more than 30,000.20 This is in addition to many Kashmiris who have been sexually incapacitated by torture, which APHC says exceeds 6,000 people.

A major cause of sexual impotence among the tortured Kashmiri youths is the use of electric shock on detainees for extracting information during interrogation. According to Masood Hussain, an Indian human rights specialist, at least 50 percent of those detained have been subjected to this inhuman treatment.21

ARRESTED AND DISPLACED

Over 25,000 Kashmiris have been arrested over the past six years, at an average rate ranging from 10 to 15 a day.22 Most of them have been civilians who have been predominantly young people. Masood Hussain, citing a survey, says that those in the age group of 10-35 years form nearly 80% of all the Kashmiris who have been detained. Many of them have been lodged in jails outside IHK.

At a press conference on January 8, 1992, the IHK Governor G.C. Saxena disclosed that about 10,000 people had been arrested by the security forces.23 According to the Executive Committee of the Jammu and Kashmir Bar Association, based in Srinagar, the number of arrests averaged at over 5,000 a year during the period 1990 to 1993.24

According to the Islamabad-based Institute of Policy Studies, over 2,000 Kashmiris, mainly civilians, were arrested during the course of 1994.25 An Indian daily has, however, reported a higher estimate of 2,270 arrests of only freedom fighters in 1994.26 Even this figure presents an incomplete picture as it does not cover the large numbers of people arrested arbitrarily and kept in illegal detention. For example, according to Sunjay Guptas investigative reports, there were more than 500 cases of i1legal detention in 1994 in Jammus Kot Balwal Jail alone, where there were 28 such detentions in 1992.27

While a spokesman of the Indian Ministry of Defence has given a figure of over 5,000 Kashmiris being held in pointed out that "some civil liberties groups have estimated that four times that number were being held without trial", some of them for "many months or years".28

The number of people who have been forced to leave their homes or those who have gone into hiding out of fear for their lives, as well as those who have been reported missing, exceeds 100,000. According to APHC, the figure totals 1.35.000 Kashmiri Muslims.

TORTURE AND CUSTODIAL KILLINGS

Torture

One of the most appalling features of Indian repression is the high incidence of custodial deaths resulting from torture. As stated by Amnesty International in its 1995 report, thousands of allegations of torture and deaths in custody have been reported in Jammu and Kashmir since early 1990.

In areas where the security forces are engaged in counter-insurgency operations, the entire civilian population is at risk of brutal torture. "Women, middle-aged men, elderly people and children have all suffered torture and ill-treatment at the hands of Indian soldiers and members of the BSF and CRPF", says Amnesty International.

The Amnesty International also says that "torture is a daily routine for the vast majority of thousands of men and women who have been arrested In connection with the campaign for Kashmirs independence or for the state to join Pakistan". The torture meted out to detained Kashmiris "defies belief", says Amnesty International. It leaves them "mutilated and disabled for life".

The Paris-based Federation International Des Ligues Des Droits DelHome, which conducted investigations of torture and ill-treatment in 1993, also discovered that "the Indian security forces commonly use torture and other cruel and degrading practices In their interrogation centres on all those whom they suspect of terrorism or of collaboration with terrorists".29 Such violent repressive measures have the clear purpose of terrorising the population, it added, sparing "neither women nor children". This was in flagrant breach of international commitments to which India is bound, the report said.

A report in the Far Eastern Economic Review says that there are 50 or more detention centres run by Indian security forces in Kashmir.30 (Also see Annexures E & F). In October 1994, Human Rights Watch/Asia published a list showing 63 centres in IHK. Two of the most notorious detention centres in Srinagar are a former palace known as Hariniwas, which is run by the Central Reserve Police Force, and a camp called Papa 2, which Is run by the Border Security Force. As noted by FIDH, the methods employed by the Indian security forces at these centres are barbaric, inhuman and imaginatively vicious."31

The report elaborates:

Detainees are beaten with rods or lathis. They are whipped with flexible cable; they are subjected to electric shock treatment, often to the testicles and ######, rods are thrust violently into the anus; hot iron rods are applied to the flesh, in a manner similar to the branding of animals; irons are used on the backs and legs of men strapped to tables, sharp needles are inserted into eardrums and ######; the ruler treatment is administered, whereby a man astride two iron bars rolls the bars back and forth over the legs of a recumbent man; cigarettes and bidis (local cigarette) are stubbed into their flesh; heads are submerged urinate into buckets of ****** water, repeatedly over long periods of time; detainees are compelled to drink quantities of muddy water till they vomit, the process being repeated ad nauseam, as it were; soldiers urinate into the mouths of bound suspects; and men are slashed with razor blades or knives, chili powder then being rubbed into the wounds. Mental torture is frequent, and meted out in the form of abuse, verbal humiliation and remarks offensive to religious sentiments....

As a result of sustained international pressure. India agreed last June to allow the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) to have access to detention centres in IHK. But the ICRC, which wanted to station its monitors in Srinagar and be able to carry out medical relief efforts based in IHK, has only been allowed an office in New Delhi. More importantly, ICRC cannot make public the reports of its monitors or its findings, which will be sent only to the Indian authorities concerned. By its conduct, the National Human Rights Commission of India has already shown itself to be more of an appendage of the Indian government than an independent human rights watchdog, at least as far as IHK is concerned.

If New Delhi has grudgingly allowed a limited role to ICRC, it has not yielded to external pressure for permitting international human rights groups to investiage the situation in IHK, as urged by the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. New Delhi has only gone as far as granting visa to the Executive Director of the Human Rights Watch/Asia to visit India while keeping IHK out of bounds.

Besides severely restricting international access to 11-1K, the Indian government has also pursued with vigour its parallel strategy of deterring locally-based civil liberties groups from documenting human rights abuses. This it has done by arresting or even attempting to kill those considered as posing a serious threat to its objective of maintaining an "iron curtain" on happenings in that disputed territory.

Some of these acts have been mentioned by Human Rights Watch/Asia in its 1995 report. Notably, such acts include the attempt on the life of Mian Abdul Qayoom, President of the Jammu and Kashmir Bar Association in April 1995 which caused him serious injury, and the arrest in June of Sheikh Mohammad Ashraf, Baramulla district head of the Bar Association.

Custodial Killings

Of the numerous people arrested every day, a large proportion succumb to torture at the various interrogation centres set up in every locality. Because of the high incidence of fatal torture at the detention centres, they are commonly known as death cells. It is the severity of torture that accounts for the "appalling" number of custodial deaths, according to Amnesty International.

While the full extent of custodial killings remains a mystery. Human Rights Watch/Asia estimates that there were 200 such deaths in the first half of 1994 alone.32 More alarming is a recent investigative report by six Indian civil liberties organisations which mentions a rate of 300 killings per month in IHK as a result of encounters and custodial deaths.33

In order to avoid custodial death due to torture, the security forces do not produce the arrested person before the magistrate as required by law. If the person arrested is alive after torture, he is handed over to the Joint Interrogation Centre in Srinagar. To conceal the fact of his prolonged arrest, the detainees date of arrest is shown to be the day when he was handed over to the JIC. In this way, the actual dale of arrest is covered up in the records. This is done deliberately so that the state can avoid liability for his death in case he dies soon after his transfer to the JIC.

Custodial killings have attracted some attention in the Indian print media. For example, in 1993, the Times of India said that such killings had become a "daily phenomenon" over the past six months,34 while the Kashmir Times cited police records as showing that 132 people had died in custody over the previous one month alone.35

The Indian government has been a party to such killings by the security forces manning the detention centers. Rather than ensuring that independent investigations are carried out and the perpetrators are brought to justice, the government has sought to cover up torture and deaths in custody, says Amnesty International.

While the local governments in other Indian states responded to Amnesty Internationals concerns about custodial deaths in their respective territories, the IHK administration simply denied reports of custodial killings and dismissed all allegations of torture.

CURFEWS AND CRACKDOWNS

For the past six years, curfews have been a daily feature of life in IHK. During most of this period, the Valley has remained under constant curfew at night while curfew has also been imposed during the day. For example, from January 17, 1990, to June 15, 1994, the curfews added up to 19,249 hours out of a total number of 38,624 hours. If account is taken of the fact that people out of fear of harassment by the security forces start their routine business at 7 a.m. and close their business at 10 a.m., then the period effectively under curfew would amount to 24,490 hours out of a total of 38,624 hours.36

Crackdowns have been the order of the day in IHK over the past six years. Typically, when the Indian security forces engage in a crackdown they cordon off an entire village or locality under the pretext of conducting a search operation. This is usually done at night and when the people wake up in the morning they are asked to gather at a particular spot.

The authorities have lost faith in the local police which is suspected of being sympathetic to the Kashmiri freedom struggle. The role of the local police has thus been reduced to the procedural task of registering cases. Likewise, the people have lost almost all faith in the judicial system which has been rendered ineffective as court orders are flouted by the authorities.

Perennial curfews and frequent crackdowns have greatly hampered the timely collection of information regarding human rights violations. According to Amnesty International, "curfews and search operations inhibit the ability of lawyers, civil liberties groups and journalists to follow up reports of human rights violations which often occur in remote villages that are difficult to reach".37

RAPE AS AN INSTRUMENT OF REPRESSION

Bosnia is not the only place where rape been used as an instrument of war by the aggressor against a beleaguered population. Kashmir is another case where this despicable method has been employed on a massive scale.

The rape and sexual abuse of women have been widely reported in IHK since the Indian security forces began counter-insurgency operations in 1990. It should be noted, as pointed out by Amnesty International in its 1995 report, that "the stigma associated with rape and the fact that it often occurs in remote places means that this abuse is under-reported" (emphasis added).

The Report goes on to say:

"Rape has been systematically used as a means of punishing women suspected of being sympathetic or related to alleged militants (as well as) a weapon in the security forces efforts to intimidate and humiliate the local population".

According to the All-Parties Hurriyat Conference, more than 4,000 women and girls - ranging from the ages of 7 to 70 - have been raped by the Indian security forces. Cases of rape involving women of older age have also been reported.38 The most horrific sexual attacks take place when a family member is believed to belong to an armed militant group. Young, unmarried women are sometimes taken away for days to the military camps. Some of them, after becoming pregnant, have committed suicide, preferring to die rather than dishonour their families.

An example of rape being used as an instrument of repression is an incident that occurred on 23 February 1991 in the mountain village of Kunan Poshpur. As investigated by the Paris-based Federation Intemationale Des Ligues Des Droits DelHome (FIDH), more that 800 soldiers of the Rajput Regiment surrounded the village and rounded up the men outside before breaking into houses in search of arms. Between 23 and 60 women were raped in the course of that night.

It is certain, says FIDH, that army officers are turning a blind eye to the catalogue of sexual attacks and that the security forces are acting with impunity.

Astounding as it may seem, Bal Thackerey, leader of Shiv Sena, a Hindu fundamentalist party, spoke approvingly of rape of Kashmiri women by the Indian security forces. In response to Amnesty Internationals damning reports, he is quoted by AFP to have said: "Amnesty says our forces raped women in Kashmir. They (Security Forces) are right. They should rape (Kashmiri women). What else should be meted out to them? Should we Invite them to a five course meal?"39

LEGALISATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES

A major factor behind the daily acts of wanton arrest and torture of Kashmiris by the Indian security forces are the extraordinary repressive laws that have been in force in IHK for the past six years, namely, the Jammu and Kashmir Public Safety Act (PSA) and the Terrorists and Disruptive Activities (Preventive) Act (TADA). Another law which legalises brutality Is the Armed Forces (Jammu and Kashmir) Special Powers Act of 1990.

According to Amnesty International, many provisions of TADA "contravene important international human rights standards, especially the right to liberty and security, to a fair trial, to freedom of expression, and the right not to be tortured".

All the three dreaded laws render the security forces immune from prosecution for acts committed under them. "Thus", as the Amnesty International points out, "they are encouraged to act with impunity". And to make matters worse, "there appears to be little awareness among the security forces that they should abide by the law or observe human rights standards in Jammu and Kashmir".

Although the original PSA obliged the authorities to inform an arrested person of the grounds for arrest, normally within five days, the Act was amended in 1990 to remove any such obligation. According to Amnesty International, this is clearly incompatible with the requirements of Article 9(2) of the International Convenant of Civil and Political Rights. (See, Annex- G for full text of ICCPR).

Another aspect of the 1990 amendment to the PSA Is the removal of the words "in the State" from Section 10 of the Act, which allows the authorities to detain people in any part of India. As a result, thousands of detainees from IHK have been held in other Indian states.

When areas are declared to be "disturbed", as has been done to a number of areas in IHK, the army and paramilitary forces are granted sweeping powers under Section 4© of the Armed Forces (Jammu and Kashmir) Special Powers Act, to:

arrest without warrant, any person who has committed a cognizable offence or against whom a reasonable suspicion exists that he has committed or is about to commit a cognizable offence and use such force as may be necessary to effect the arrest.

Under Section 6 of this Act, all arrested persons are required to be handed over to the nearest police station expeditiously, but Amnesty International says that this provision Is "routinely violated by the army and paramilitary forces".40 Section 4 of this Act also permits the security forces to shoot to kill, which gives them virtual immunity from prosecution.

TADA is a tougher version of the May 1985 Act of the same name which it replaced in 1987. Amnesty International says that "wide powers of arrest granted to the police under the Act, combined with the absence of fundamental legal safeguards for detainees, creates a climate which encourages abuse of power and facilitates illegal and secret detention".41 It cites an editorial in The Indian Express of October 13, 1993, which spoke of the "blatant and widespread violation of civil fights that TADA has come to represent".

In particular, Section 4 (2) of this Act permits people to be arrested on suspicion of having committed disruptive activities" broadly defined as:

 any action taken, whether by act or by speech or through any other media ... which questions, disrupts or is intended to disrupt, whether directly or indirectly, the sovereignty and territorial integrity of India; or which is intended to bring about or supports any claim... for the cession of any part of India or the secession of any part of India from the Union

In its 1993 report, Amnesty International dismissed the Indian governments claim that those in judicial custody under TADA were being held on valid and bonafide order of a competent judicial authority. It said emphatically that this "is not in fact the case".42 Amnesty International also said that it does not know of a single case of disappearance in IHK in which the perpetrators have been brought to justice.

In May 1995, TADA ceased to be in force after the Indian government decided not to renew it. According to Human Rights Watch/Asia, this decision was apparently influenced by domestic political considerations linked to the general elections in 1996.43 The objective was to win back the sympathy of Indias large Muslim minority whose support the ruling Congress(I) now badly strapped for votes had lost in the 1991 Lok Sabha elections.

The non-renewal of TADA does not mean that New Delhi has given up the idea of substituting it with another criminal law that will retain much of the offensive features of TADA, as reflected in a draft bill that lies with parliament. More importantly, the absence of TADA will not have any significant effect on legalised brutality since other repressive laws remain in place.

Although TADAs prohibition of any legal action against acts done by officials "in good faith" are spelled out in clearer terms, legal proceedings also cannot be instituted for similar acts under Section 22 of the PSA, as under Section 7 of the Armed Forces (Jammu and Kashmir) Special Powers Act, thus providing virtual immunity from prosecution.

The paramilitary forces themselves tend to regard abuses as inevitable. Amnesty International cites a report in The Pioneer of April 18, 1993, in which a BSF officer was quoted as admitting:

The militants are not easily identifiable which compels us to use a heavy hand ... Frankly, given the situation, wherever forces are deployed excesses are inevitable. Whenever one of our boys gets killed, the others become very difficult to control.

The 1994-95 Annual Report of the National Human Rights Commission of India, established to appease growing international criticism, betrays its designated role as a human rights watchdog. Curiously, the number of cases of human rights violations in IHK registered with the Commission (131), the number of cases considered (117) and the number of cases pending consideration (15), fall far short of the cases entertained by the Commission from most other Indian states.44

Similarly, cases of custodial deaths admitted by the Commission show a marked difference when IHK-related cases are compared to those admitted from a number of other Indian states, despite the much graver human rights situation prevailing in IHK.45

While saying that NHRC has been playing a useful but limited role in investigating charges of custodial killings by police officers, Human Rights Watch/Asia has been less fettered in commenting on the commissions broader role. Thus, more significantly, it says: "In other cases, however, the commission appeared to accept at face value official accounts of alleged (human rights) abuse (by Indian security forces), despite contradictory reports by local human rights groups".46

ADMINISTRATIVE BREAKDOWN

The appalling state of the human rights situation in IHK is partly a consequence of the collapse of the administrative apparatus in that territory. As observed by Amnesty International, "there is a total breakdown of the law and order machinery (in IHK)". One example of the breakdown is that many detainees continue to languish in jails and sub-jails without any legal authority. The High Court in IHK has been made virtually powerless to redress such a situation. Particularly hit by the anarchical conditions are the poor people for whom the cost of litigation to help their relatives is already too high. The trauma of the common man is even greater for those living in far away districts, who have to travel a distance of more than 500km to Jammu.

SUMMARY

Indias repression of the Kashmiri freedom struggle has been taking place on a staggering scale since 1989. Freedom House has categorised IHK as among the five worst territories in the world in terms of human rights violations. IHK could be better described as being the worst among them (East Timor, Kosovo, West Papua, Tibet) since the situation in none of the other areas can be reasonably compared to that in IHK.

According to Voice of America, Indian military operations against the freedom fighters is costing New Delhi $3 million a day.47 Before 1989, the repression was pursued by political means. This was done from the outset by rigging elections and manipulating the political process in partnership with the pro-India National Conference, an autonomy seeking political party which Increasingly lost Its credibility.

Indias political strategy ended in a debacle when most Kashmiri Muslims boycotted the last Lok Sabha election in 1989 which saw a voter turn out of less than 3% in the Valley, as widely reported by the Indian media. That event, together with the blatant rigging of the last state-assembly in 1987, led Inexorably to a groundswell of anger, triggering an all-out struggle for azadi (freedom).

New Delhi continues to commit all kinds of grave human rights violations in its unmitigated attempt to physically liquidate that struggle and break the will of the Kashmiri people. Despite its implacable efforts, however, India has not succeeded in its aim. As reported by an Indian daily, for example, acts of militancy have been increasing in IHK.48 The repeated postponement of the highly controversial elections which New Delhi has been seeking to hold in IHK since 1994 is another indicator.

Yet, India has shown no sign whatsoever of recognising Kashmir as a disputed territory that can only be resolved through negotiation. Nor does it recognise the Importance of settling this long standing dispute for normalising India-Pakistan relations and strenghtening regional stability and security.

The Indian government continues to Insist that Kashmir is an integral part of India. In saying this, it continues to ignore its international obligations and the pro-freedom sentiment of the Kashmiri people whose lives it has traumatised. According to a recent public opinion survey conducted by an Indian magazine, the first opinion poll to take place in the Valley, a mere 2% of the respondents believed that the crisis could be resolved within the Indian constitutional framework.49

Yet, the world communitys reaction to the Kashmir crisis has been distinctly milder than it has been to similar repression taking place In other trouble spots of the world as observed by Human Right Watch/Asia In its latest report. In large measure, it is the absence of a strong international concern that has emboldened India to persist with a militaristic approach to the Kashmir crisis.

REFERENCE

See Tapan Bose, Dinesh Mohan, et al, "Indias Kashmir War" Economic and Political Weekly (India), March 31, 1990; Human Rights Situation in the Kashmir Valley, A report of the Kashmir Coordination Committee reproduced by the International Institute of Kashmir Studies, London, May 1992: Kashmir Bleeds, A report by the Human Rights Commission, Srinagar (New Delhi, 1990); Kashmir Imprisoned, An Indian Human Rights Report reproduced in The Nation (Lahore), August 19, 1990.

See, for example, Kashmir under Siege: Human Rights in India, Asia Watch Report, Washington D.C., May 1991; Kashmir 1991, A Report of the Physicians for Human Rights, UK; and Asia Watch 1993 Report, reproduced in Dawn (Karachi), April 10, 1994.

See Tapan Bose, et. a1., "Indias Kashmir War", Economic and Political Weekly, March 31, 1990.

Quoted in Bob Wylie. Khalid Hasan, ed., "Valley on Fire", The Guardian (London), August 3, 1991. Also see, Kashmir Holocaust: The Case Against India, Lahore, 1992.

Gautum Navlakha, "Caught between the Army and Guest Militants", Economic and Political Weekly. August 26, 1995, p. 2106.

VOA: "Kashmiris fight against India enters seventh year", Radio Monitoring Report, Pakistan Broadcasting Corporation, No. 351/95, December 17, 1995, C-20/21.

See The Muslim, January 14, 1996, for excerpts of the CPJ report.

See the reproduced reports of Asia Watch and Physicians for Human Rights in The Muslim (Islamabad), May 29, 1993. For the report of the British Parliamentary Group, see Tim Gopsill, "Heaven on Fire", The Nation, November 20, 1992.

The News (Islamabad), February 12, 1994.

"We want freedom from India: Appeal by Kashmiris", APHC, Muzaffarabad, Azad Kashmir, 1995. The APHC represents more than 30 political parties and groups engaged In the freedom struggle.

See, for example, AFP report, "Greater Autonomy for IHK Shocking: BJP", Pakistan Times (Islamabad), November 6, 1995.

VOA: Kashmiris fight against India enters seventh year", Radio Monitoring Report, Pakistan Broadcasting Corporation, No. 351/95, December 17, 1995, C-20/21.

See, for example, Nelson Graves, "Series of blasts leave Kashmiris shaken", Asian Age (India), September 9, 1995.

Tahir Amin, Mass Resistance in Kashmir, Institute of Policy Studies, Islamabad, p. 116.

The Hindu. November 18, 1994, as reported by Gautum Navlakha, Caught between the Army and Guest Militants, Economic and Political Weekly, August 26, 1995, p. 2105. Neutralised is understood to mean either killed or incarcerated.

See, for example, Ajit Bhattacharjea, Tiny window of opportunity in Kashmir", Pioneer (India), April 21, 1995. Bhattacharjeas figure takes 1990 as the starting point, thereby excluding 1989 when there was already considerable instability in IHK. Also see Prem Shankar Jha. "Ending the paralysis in Kashmir", The Hindu (India), April 22, 1995.

Shabir Shah, a Kashmiri leader, has also been quoted in an interview as saying that more than 30,000 people have died over the past six years. See, Vijaya Pushkarna, "Quest for peace", The Week (India), April 2, 1995.

Dawn, November 6, 1995. However, Dr. Abdullah has not been clear about his reference to 50,000 fatalities. He was later reported to have said that About 50,000 people in Kashmir have been killed in various terrorist attacks". See, Hindustan Times, January 17, 1996.

See for example, Prem Shankar Jha, "Ending the paralysis in Kashmir", The Hindu, April 22, 1995.

Masood Hussain, Torture Causing Sexual Disability", Radiance Viewsweekly (India), December 24, 1995, p. 20.

"Atrocities committed by Indian occupation forces in Indian held Kashmir", APHC, 1995, Muzafarabad, Azad Kashmir.

Masood Hussain, "Torture Causing Sexual Disability", Radiance Viewsweekly (India), December 24, 1995, p. 20.

Shabir Shah, one of the Kashmiri leaders, has been quoted as saying that 15,000 Kashmiris are languishing in Indian jails, in an interview to Vijaya Pushkarna. See, The Week, April 2, 1995. According to South Asia Human Rights Documentation Centre, a non-governmental body, there are between 10,000 to 20,000 Kashmirs in "administrative detention". See, Hamish McDonald, Open Door. Red Cross allowed to meet Kashmiri detainees", Far Eastern Economic Review (Hongkong), July 6, 1995.

Recorded by the Executive Committee of the Jammu and Kashmir Bar Association, Srinagar.

Data compiled from information collected by the Executive Committee of the Jammu and Kashmir Bar Association from the Indian electronic and print media. The IHK media had reported about 7,000 arrests from July 19, 1990 to January 1, 1992.

Data compiled from Kashmir Watch, a periodical of the Institute of Policy Studies, Islamabad. The data collected by Kashmir Watch is derived from various international news agencies, including Reuters, AFP, DPA, BBC and VOA.

The Tribune (India), January 16, 1995.

See The Statesman (Calcutta), January 21-23, 1995.

"Torture and Deaths in Custody in Jammu and Kashmir", Amnesty International, January 1995.

"Violations of human rights committed by Indian security forces In Jammu and Kashmir", Federation International des Ligues des Droits de LHome (FIDH), Report, Hors N 172 Serie, Paris, May 1993.

Hamish McDonald, "Open Door: Red Cross allowed to meet Kashmir detainees", FEER, July 6, 1995.

See Patanjali Varadarjan, "Kashmir: A People Terrorised", FIDH Report, January 1993.

Cited in Hamish McDonald, "Open Door: Red Cross allowed to meet Kashmiri detainees", FEER, July 6, 1995.

The Statesman, December 31, 1995.

Times of India. March 12, 1993.

Kashmir Times, April 26, 1993.

The data has been collected and compiled by the Executive Committee of the Jammu and Kashmir Bar Association, Srinagar.

Amnesty International, 1995 Report, p. 18.

See, for example, Ibid., p. 28.

The APP report was not carried by the Indian news media. Shiv Sena governs Maharashatra, Indias biggest Industrial state, where It exploited communalism to dislodge the Congress(I) from power In regional elections last year. Buoyed by its success In Maharashtra, Shiv Sena now aims to become a bigger player in national politics. It also enjoys close links to the Bharatiya Janata Party, another Hindu fundamentalist party, which is a serious contender for power when federal elections are held. Both BJP and Shiv Sena advocate a more militaristic policy than has been adopted so far to crush the freedom struggle and they also want to bring IHK more tightly into the Indian union.

"An Unnatural Fate: Disappearances and Impunity in the Indian States of Jammu and Kashmir and Punjab", Amnesty International, December 15, 1993.

Ibid.

Ibid.

Human Rights Watch/Asia, 1995 Report, p. 154.

See, National Human Rights Commission, Annual Report 1994-95, Annexure-IV, (Para. 6.11), p. 60.

Ibid., Annexure-VI, (Para. 9.6), p. 64.

Human Rights Watch/Asia, 1995 Report, p. 155.

"VOA: Kashmiris fight against India enters seventh year", Radio Monitoring Report, Pakistan Broadcasting Corporation, No. 351/95, December 17, 1995, C-20/21.

The Tribune, January 16, 1995. Militant actions refer to those cases which the administration sends to the Crime Branch for special investigation.

The survey was done by Outlook. For a report of its results, see The News, October 12, 1995.

ANNEX A



FACT SHEET ON INDIAN FORCES IN INDIAN
HELD KASHMIR

STRENGTH OF TROOPS DETAILS AT

1. Army 
a. 15 Corps 134800 Annex B 
b. 16 Corps 129200 -do- 
c. Other Including Command Troops 53800 -do- 
d. Total 317800 
2. Para Military Forces (165x units) 203000 Annex C 
3. Additional Inductions in the garb of electionduties (over two months) Annex D 
a. Regular 4710 
b. Para Military 37950 
c. Total 42660 
4. State Police 40000 
5. TOTAL FORCES IN IHK 603460 


Source: Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Islamabad, August 1995.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5517722702246333713&q=India+is:free


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## A.Rahman

Adux said:


> Dont put yourself in Neo's shoes, i dont think you are worthy of it



you are not worthy of this forum but we are tolerating you.


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## Adux

The Admin, the mods are welcome to ban me if they think i am not worthy of this board, that i dont suck up to the views of people like you


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## A.Rahman

Adux said:


> The Admin, the mods are welcome to ban me if they think i am not worthy of this board, that i dont suck up to the views of people like you



your ranting will be more productive if you write a letter to your PM to provide psychiatrist for Indian soldiers; who abuse civilians in occupied zones.


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## Bull

Neo said:


> Bull you're out of line here!
> You're challenging the integrity of the forum here and I take it as an insult!





A.Rahman said:


> Dont act smart; read the post again. It says "They" and Neo is in Moderators team; therefore he is included too:



neo how many times have you deleted any of our posts. I dont remember any case. Now answer how many times have Rahman deleted, ooops.

Neo dont come into this, its a request. It was never meant at you. Its a request.

If you found my words insulting, im sorry, sincerely.


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## Shabaz Sharif

Adux said:


> Bull,
> 
> The bugger doesnt get it that we could actually spit at our people who acts like this idiot above, they are used to have women delievered no justice like muktar mai.
> We have army men, court-martiled, jailed and even hung for their crimes committed. While Muktar mai's rapist (A major in PAK army) walks scot free somewhere in pakistan and the president accuses the woman(victim) of cooking up a story, so that she can get a canadian passport.
> As usual this msg will get deleted, and this message undelievered. Pakistan as a society has a lot to do. But then again I am an Indian and what do I know



Muktara bibi rapists are hanged unlike many bramins who rape Dalits girls on daily basis and get away with it. Dehli is famous for being rape capital of India.


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## Adux

shan said:


> Muktara bibi rapists are hanged unlike many bramins who rape Dalits girls on daily basis and get away with it. Dehli is famous for being rape capital of India.



Please provide me a link, doll..really would like to read it...I am a Bhramin and I take offence at your statement...


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## Adux

A.Rahman said:


> your ranting will be more productive if you write a letter to your PM to provide psychiatrist for Indian soldiers; who abuse civilians in occupied zones.



Our Army is doing a good job, those who arent getting their punishments handed out to them, unlike in a country where the Army runs the country, rapes of its economic as well as female wealth


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## A.Rahman

Bull said:


> neo how many times have you deleted any of our posts. I dont remember any case. Now answer how many times have Rahman deleted, ooops.
> 
> Neo dont come into this, its a request. It was never meant at you. Its a request.
> 
> If you found my words insulting, im sorry, sincerely.



Did Neo ever restored the post that I deleted? ... ooopps...


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## A.Rahman

Rapist Indian soldiers caught red-handed in occupied Kashmir SRINAGAR, occupied Kashmir, June 27 (AFP) &#8211; Police in occupied Kashmir had to fire shots in the air to rescue two Indian soldiers accused by furious villagers of trying to rape a 17-year-old Muslim girl, authorities and residents said Wednesday. The two plain-clothes soldiers had their scalps shaved and faces blackened after being overpowered by villagers in Kunan, near the town of Srinagar. &#8220;The two army men in civil dress entered our house demanding food and shelter. They asked my mother to leave and tried to rape me,&#8221; the unnamed victim of the alleged assault was quoted as saying by a local news agency. &#8220;I resisted and screamed and my neighbours rescued me,&#8221; she was quoted as saying. Police used batons and fired shots in the air to rescue the two while they were being paraded in a nearby town late on Tuesday. &#8220;The two are with us,&#8221; local police officer Khalid Ahmed told AFP from Bandipora town, adding police had also registered a complaint of sexual assault. &#8220;The two soldiers were on an information gathering mission when they were taken hostage by militant sympathisers,&#8221; army spokesman Colonel Manjinder Singh said. An 18-year-old insurgency and freedom movement has left more than 42,000 people dead, a third of them civilians, in occupied Kashmir, according to official figures. (Posted @ 11:50 PST


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## dabong1

A.Rahman said:


> your ranting will be more productive if you write a letter to your PM to provide psychiatrist for Indian soldiers; who abuse civilians in occupied zones.



LOL good advice


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## dabong1

Adux said:


> Bull,
> 
> The bugger doesnt get it that we could actually spit at our people who acts like this idiot above, they are used to have women delievered no justice like muktar mai.
> We have army men, court-martiled, jailed and even hung for their crimes committed. While Muktar mai's rapist (A major in PAK army) walks scot free somewhere in pakistan and the president accuses the woman(victim) of cooking up a story, so that she can get a canadian passport.
> As usual this msg will get deleted, and this message undelievered. Pakistan as a society has a lot to do. But then again I am an Indian and what do I know



When did Muktar mai's rapist (A major in PAK army) walks scot free ?
As far as i recall she was raped by some feudals in a village.Nothing to do with the army.
Mukhtaran's attackers, and the Mastoi of the so-called panchayat that conspired in her rape, were sentenced to death by the Dera Ghazi Khan Anti-Terrorist Court.


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## Adux

Musharraf and the Business of Getting Raped
By Wajid Shamsul Hasan
September 19, 2005


LONDON: Pakistan's commando president General Pervez Musharraf has stopped enjoying the concession extended to a military man that they are not gifted with virtues of wisdom. Since they belong to the trigger-happy clan of sons-of-a-gun, they believe that their might is right.

In short, in his interview to Washington Post, he justified as to how and why Pakistan under his so-called rule of "enlightened moderation" has become "Rapistan" where a woman is raped every two-and-half hour -- described by him as the on-going lucrative business among Pakistani women to seek "Canadian passport" and to make money. 

To add insult and injury to the national honor, his propagandists claim that traumatic victims such as Mukhtaran Mai, Dr Shazia Khalid and Sonia Naz, who have bravely dared to expose the rapacious crime against female dignity, are nothing but pawns in the hands of NGOs with foreign links who allegedly receive enormous funds from abroad and are accused of working for the "enemies" of Pakistan to give the country a bad name. 

Obviously, in this allegation inference was towards the so-called "Hunood-and-Yahud" (Hindu-Jewish) conspiracy. Now the government sponsored "Hunood-and-Yahud" will go out of fashion since the General is hands folded on bended knees, tooth-paste ad smile on his face, seeking good relations with India and Israel mostly for his personal gains. 

He must have understood the message in President Bush's praise for India in his UN address without mentioning Pakistan which has become the front line state for American war of terror under its Knight Templar. He had reasons to grab the "historic" handshake opportunity with Israeli Prime Minister Aerial Sharon since he has the key to many vitally important doors in Washington.

The General also explained to Washington Post it was vital for both national and international interests not to denude himself of his Khaki. It facilitated him in successfully conducting the affairs of the state and that "he had not ruled out keeping it on past 2007". 

Ominous conditions such as that within and outside Pakistan dictate that: "I keep it on until 2007 ... the regional and international environment demands that I keep it on. So why should I be bothered to remove it now?"

Moreover, it was of least concern for him that the majority of the people in Pakistan wanted to see him without his uniform, what mattered most with him was what Bush Sahib wanted of him. The man whose uniform prior to 9/11 had made him a pariah military dictator, boasted openly that never in any of his meetings, private or official, President Bush on any occasion asked to see him without his Khaki. 

I am sure the man in White House has enough Texan wisdom not to demand of his man Friday to be without clothes when it is known that Khaki to him is like hair were to Samson. 

Coming back to Musharraf's "Rapistan", I agree with the vast public reaction in Pakistan to his Washington Post interview that whatever the General said about getting raped is a most brazen and sickening manifestation of a degenerated male mind. Musharraf told WP correspondent: 'You must understand the environment in Pakistan. This (rape) has become a money making concern. A lot of people say if you want to go abroad and get a visa for Canada and citizenship and be a millionaire, get yourself raped.'

Since the WP interview many innocent, naive Pakistanis and columnists have asked the question why General Musharraf thought it fit to make such a horrendous statement. They must realize that it is typical of the Praetorian mind set. Musharraf's explanation reminds me of late General "Tiger" Niazi who broke all previous records in genocide and massive rapes in erstwhile East Pakistan. He indulged, patronized, encouraged and defended rape of Muslim women (since majority of people in East Pakistan were more religious Muslims than their West Pakistani counterparts) with the view to changing the ethnic complexion of the population.

It is part of the method in the madness that military dictators employ to terrorize and subdue the civil population. Remember General Zia's time when tik-tikis, a wooden structure raised from ground to expose the posterior of a man to be administered lashes in public. To make its impact more gruesomely effective, whipping was done in a public place-mostly in sports stadiums. Besides public lashing to thousands of political dissidents, General Zia also indulged in execution by hanging to mute democratic voices. 

Although under international pressure, the General tried to retract his words and blamed the Washington Post, his supporters cannot describe such sadist utterances as slip of his tongue. Instead of sympathizing with the rape victims, he has been going out of the way to prove that they themselves were the villains of the sordid piece. 

Mukhtaran Mai's case who was stopped traveling abroad by Musharraf himself since he feared that she would bad mouth Pakistan in foreign lands. He showed indecent haste to rush to issue a public statement in Dr Shazia Khalid's rape case where an army Captain Hammad was allegedly the principal accused. The General said he was sure the accused was innocent. He had subverted and jackbooted justice by declaring Hammad above board even before investigations could start.

Gang-rapes, parading of women in the nude in public and increasing number of karo-kari cases spread like epidemics during military rule when the dictators talk of good governance but practically do the opposite.

Moreover, since dictators are not accountable to any one, it is the free for all sponsored by them that becomes the order of the day. Sonia Naz's case highlights over indulgence of police personnel in heinous crimes including rape. It is a sordid story of rape and extortion by a police officer that is protected by the high ups in Musharraf regime and it shows what happens to a society where poachers become gamekeepers. 

Indeed, Pakistan had never sunk so low morally as now. The deepening apathy, social degeneration and decadence, breakdown of law and order machinery, all are sure signs of a state tethering on the verge of collapse. And with rulers like Musharraf around any longer, it could, may Allah forbid, mean swan song for Pakistan.

The writer is a former High Commissioner of Pakistan to UK


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## dabong1

Do you want me to list all the rapes done by the indian scum army on the population of india?


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## Adux

dabong1 said:


> Do you want me to list all the rapes done by the indian scum army on the population of india?



Third time you have called indian army as scum, flamebait boy. And you can expect the same about PA from me. Which I have never did till now.


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## akzaman

*India: A legacy of Violating International Agreements/Treaties*

Shireen M. Mazari

The downing of the unarmed Pakistan navy surveillance plane by India on August 10, 1999, was yet another example of Indias readiness to violate its international commitments made under Treaties and Agreements/Accords.

In this instance, India clearly violated the bilateral Pakistan-India Agreement of 1991 on Prevention of Air Space Violations and For Permitting Over Flights and Landings By Military Aircraft - specifically Articles 1 and 2(b):
Article 1: Henceforth, both sides will take adequate measures to ensure that air violations of each others airspace do not take place. However, if any inadvertent violation does take place, the incident will be promptly investigated and the Headquarters (HQ) of the other Air Force informed of the results without delay, through diplomatic channels.
Article 2.b: Unarmed transport and logistics aircraft including unarmed helicopters, and Air Observation Post (AOP) aircraft, wil! be permitted up to 1000 meters from each others air space including ADIZ.

However, India has been violating bilateral and multilateral treaties it is a party to since it came into being as an independent state in 1947 - where we take the term "to violate" as meaning "to fail to observe duly; to abuse; ..."

Violations of agreements at bilateral (Pakistan-India agreements) level

In 1947, India began its membership of the international comity of sovereign states by violating the agreed-upon Partition plan. It usurped the princely states of Hyderabad and Junagadh through the use of force and tried to do the same to Jammu and Kashmir. It also refused to hand over to Pakistan the agreed division of assets, both financial and military. 
In 1972, India began violating the Simla Accord, relating specifically to the Line of Control almost as soon as it was signed. Despite a commitment by both Pakistan and India not to alter the LoC unilaterally and to refrain from using force "in violation of this Line", India crossed over the post-1971 LoC and set up 6-8 posts on Pakistans side of this Line.
[In order to initiate the process of the establishment of a durable peace, both Governments agree that: ... ii) In Jainmu and Kashmir, the LoC resulting from the cease-fire of December 1971, shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognized position of either side. Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally, irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations. Both sides further undertake to refrain from the threat or use of force in violation of this Line". Simla Agreement, 2nd July 1972] 
In 1984, India not only violated the Simla Accord but also the Karachi Agreement of 1949 which defined the Cease Fire Line between Pakistan and India in Jammu and Kashmir as prevailing after the UN-brokered cease-fire of January 1949. Indias violation was termed Operation Meghdoot whereby it air lifted forces to occupy the Siachin Glacier and its two key northern passes - Bila Fond La and Sia La. The Karachi Agreement had stipulated unambiguously that beyond NJ 9842 the Cease Fire Line would run northward to the Chinese border - with Siachin Glacier forming an integral part of Baltistan in the Northern Areas of Pakistan. And this was reflected in international maps as well as in the fact that all mountaineering and trekking expeditions to the Siachin area had to apply to the Pakistan Government for permission. 
In 1988, India violated the Simla Accord once more by crossing the LoC and establishing twelve posts in the unoccupied Qamar sector. 
These almost habitual violations of the Sirnla Accord really call into question the validity of this Accord today.

India has also violated the Pakistan-India 1992 Joint Declaration on the Complete Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. Through this Declaration, both sides declared that: 
1. They undertake never under any circumstances:
a) to develop, produce or otherwise acquire chemical weapons;
b) to use chemical weapons;
c) to assist, encourage or induce, in any way, aim one to engage in development, production, acquisition, stockpiling or use of chemical weapons.

At the time, both Pakistan and India showed that they did not possess chemical weapons stockpiles. However, when India ratified the international Chemical Weapons Convention in 1996, it declared what were a large stockpile of chemical weapons! This showed that India had deceived Pakistan into signing the bilateral agreement on chemical weapons in the first place. So, according to the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties (1969), Pakistan could renege on this agreement. [Article 49 of the Vienna Convention states: "If a State has been induced to conclude a treaty by the fraudulent conduct of another negotiating State, the State may invoke the fraud as invalidating its consent to be bound by the treaty.]

The latest violation of a bilateral agreement with Pakistan by India has, of course, been of the 1991 Prevention of Air Space violations and For Permitting Over Flights and Landings By Military Aircraft agreement. 
Nor has India only sought to negate bilateral commitments entered into with Pakistan, as and when it suited its interests. India has been equally cavalier with its multilateral treaty commitments.

Multilateral treaties violations by India

It transgressed the UN Charters letter and spirit when it invaded Goa in 1961 and expanded Indias geographic contours. 
Its amalgamation of Sikkirn within the Indian state - from the status of Protectorate - certainly violated the spirit of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties (1969) which upholds the sanctity of international treaties and conventions and inter a/ia states that successor states (which India was after 1947 to British India. and gained its UN seat on that basis) inherit treaty obligations of the predecessor stare also. 
Post the 1971 war with Pakistan. India violated the Geneva Conventions relating to the conduct of war, specifically the 1949 Prisoners of War Convention, on the issue of Pakistani POWs which it continued to hold on to long after the war had ended and Pakistan had returned the Indian POWs. 
Article 118, Sec. II of Geneva Convention Ill states:

Prisoners of war shall be released and repatriated without delay after the cessation of active hostilities.
In the absence of stipulations to the above effect in any agreement concluded between the Parties to the conflict with a view to the cessation of hostilities, or failing any such agreement, each of the Detaining Powers shall itself establish and execute without delay a plan of repatriation in conformity with the principle laid down in the foregoing paragraph.
In either case, the measures adopted shall be brought to the knowledge of the prisoners of war.

By testing a nuclear device in 1974, India certainly violated the spirit of the Partial Test Ban Treaty of 1963 to which it was a party - even though it may not have violated the letter of this treaty. The preamble to the Treaty states that the signatories in:
Seeking to achieve the discontinuance of all test explosions of unclear weapons for all time, determined to continue negotiations to this end, and desiring to put an end to the contamination of mans environment by radioactive substances ... 
Indias denial of the right of plebiscite to the Kashmiris is a constant violation of UN Security Council resolutions. Yet, India, as a member of the UN, has agreed to abide by the UN Charter which includes Article 25:
The members of the United Nations agree to accept and carry out the decisions of the Security Council in accordance with me present Charter. 
India also violated the UN Convention on Law of the Sea (1982) during the height of the Kargil crisis when it held up a North Korean cargo ship that was carrying a cargo of 300 crates destined for Pakistan, at Kandla port, on its Western coast. The captain and crew were arrested and the cargo confiscated. 
Article 24 of the UN Convention on Law of the Sea states:

1. The coastal State shall not hamper the innocent passage of foreign ships through the territorial sea except in accordance with this Convention. In particular, in the application of this Convention or of any laws or regulations adopted in conformity with this Convention, the coastal State shall not:

a. impose requirements on foreign ships which have the practical effect of denying or impairing the right of innocent passage; or
b. discriminate in form or in fact against the ships of any State or against ships carrying cargoes to, from or on behalf of any State.

And India also declared a blockade of sorts against Pakistan which is an act of war. Given that, India had not declared war on Pakistan, legally it had no ground on which to carry out any of these acts in peace time.

With such an abysmal track record on bilateral and multilateral agreements and treaties, one wonders how and why India continues to escape international censure. It really negates the relevance of international commitments and shows that international relations are premised purely on national interests and only where they coincide with more altruistic concerns will the latter be addressed/protected.

Interestingly, India itself has been very harsh with weak states with which it has forcibly imposed bilateral agreements to make them compliant to Indian policy goals. For instance, land-locked Nepal suffered the wrath of India when it purchased a few antiaircraft guns from China (a defensive weapon system in any case). Referring to the 1950 bilateral Treaty of Peace and Friendship with Nepal, which includes a clause relating to the regulation of arms imports by Nepal, India choked Nepal by withholding transit facilities.

This lends further credence to the belief that at the end of the day it is force and power (primarily military) that define international politics - even today. The notion that the post-bilateral global era is one of peace needs to be qualified, for it is an era of imposed peace where military might continues to hold sway. That is a lesson the Indian state has imbibed well - and imbibed it since the times of Nehru. After all, it was Nehru who laid the nuclear foundations of Indian militarism and, as an avid admirer of the Soviet Union, he opted to fashion the post-1947 Indian polity on similar lines - centralised planning and a massive weapons-industry infrastructure. He talked peace while planning Indias physical expansion through military means - be it the Princely states of British India or Goa or Sikkim.

And it is the same duality Indian leaders have adopted since. For instance, India seeks a global power role through a permanent seat in the Security Council even as it continues to violate the UN Charter with impunity. Because the major powers, as a result of their own politico-military and economic compulsions, continue to ignore Indias transgressions of its international commitments, India is fast becoming the global brat rather than the responsible global power it wants to.

http://www.issi.org.pk/comments/1c.htm


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## con

dabong1 said:


> Do you want me to list all the rapes done by the indian scum army on the population of india?



Would you too like to have a list of "good things" done by PA on the population of East Pakistan?

Both the nations have their hand dirty.Hence I suggest you to stop waving moral flag and pointing finger.


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## dabong1

con said:


> Would you too like to have a list of "good things" done by PA on the population of East Pakistan?
> 
> Both the nations have their hand dirty.Hence I suggest you to stop waving moral flag and pointing finger.



Please do go back check the post and you will that adux posted "Musharraf and the Business of Getting Raped" and you expect me not to respond.
"Army runs the country, rapes of its economic as well as female wealth" just a sample of what your indian friend keeps coming up with.


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## dabong1

Adux said:


> Third time you have called indian army as scum, flamebait boy. And you can expect the same about PA from me. Which I have never did till now.




Oooohh so when it upsets you its flamebait and when its the other way round you want to bring free speech into it.
You can call the freedom fighters scum but i can not call the indian army in kashmir scum......... INDIAN ARMY IN KASHMIR IS SCUM FREE SPEECH


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## akzaman

*KASHMIR AND EAST TIMOR: A COMPARATIVE CASE STUDY*
Shireen M. Mazari

The UN committed itself to the right of self-determination through plebiscite for Kashmir and East Timor. In the latter case, the UN finally fulfilled its commitment in 1999. In the case of Kashmir it still has to do so. Why? Is religion the deciding factor?

If one looks at the history of East Timor and what led to the UN calling on Portugal and Indonesia to allow the Timorese their right of self determination, one has a terrible sense of deja vu - except that, on Kashmir, the UNs call to allow the Kashmiris self determination has been consistently ignored not only by India but by the rest of the world community also. Why? A brief history of post-colonial developments relating to East Timor and Kashmir will make the answer clearer.

East Timor is a half island a few hundred miles north of Australia, which was a Portuguese colonial outpost until 1975. Interestingly, while the Dutch laid colonial claim to Indonesia, the Portuguese held on to this small half island of East Timor. When at the end of World War II, the islands under Dutch control as well as the Western half of Timor, declared their independence (1945) to form Indonesia, East 

Timor remained under Portuguese control. The Dutch of course did not recognise Indonesian 
independence until 1949, but Indonesia also did not claim East Timor as a part of it, after independence. 

When the Portuguese dictatorship was overthrown by the military in 1974, the new regime declared its intentions of letting go of its remaining colonial territories including East Timor. So in 1974 the Timorese were allowed to organise their own political parties and two main parties emerged: The Timorese Democratic Union (UDT) and the Revolutionary Front for an Independent East Timor (FRETILIN). 

Initially the two parties formed a coalition in anticipation of independence but the JJDK allying itself with Indonesia broke away from the coalition and in August 1975 it seized power. As civil war broke out, with FRETILIN gaining the upper hand, the Portuguese fled. Indonesia intervened militarily claiming that it did so at the request of local leaders; and this was followed by the elected Peoples Assembly of East Timor submitting a resolution to the Indonesian House of Representatives petitioning for incorporation.

However, FRETILIN and its supporters went into the mountains to conduct a guerrilla war against Indonesia and because the world by and large believed that the majority of the East Timorese supported FRETILIN and independence, the UN and all the Western countries except Australia refused to recognise the annexation - recognising East Timor as a Portuguese possession instead. In the ensuing 23-year struggle for independence, 200,000 East Timorese are believed to have died (the Indonesian figure is 100,000) as a combined result of fighting and famine.

Meanwhile, Security Council Resolution 384 (December 1975) recognised the "inalienable right of the people of East Timor to self-determination and independence in accordance with the principle of the Charter of the UN " and called upon Indonesia to withdraw its forces from the territory (Article 2) and on the government of Portugal to cooperate fully with the UN "so as to enable the people of Fact Timor to exercise freely their right of self determination"(Article 3). And in 1976, Resolution 389 of the Security Council once again reaffirmed this position.

Backed by these resolutions and support from most of the Western powers, the pro-independence Timorese continued their struggle, which gained public notice when Indonesia adopted a policy of Glasnost in 1989 and opened up East Timor to the outside world. The Pope was also allowed to visit. All these developments also lead to further violence and increasing international support for the freedom movement. This reached a peak in 1996 when the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to Timorese liberation activists Jose Ramos-Horta and Bishop Carlos Ximenes. However, it was the fall of Suharto and deteriorating economic conditions that finally altered the situation for East Timor. In August, Indonesia evolved a plan to grant East Timor greater autonomy and on May 5, 1999, Indonesia and Portugal formally agreed to allow the UN to conduct a referendum on Indonesias autonomy proposal. 

The choice in the referendum was between greater autonomy within Indonesia or independence. And this referendum has finally been held.Now, this case of East Timor bears a startling likeness to the Kashmir issue: A colonial territory it was annexed forcibly by Indonesia just as India attempted to annex the whole of Jammu and Kashmir by force. The UN reaffirmed the right of self-determination for both the Timorese and Kashmiris. In the case of Kashmir the key UN Security Council Resolution was dated 21st April 1948 - this resolution delineates the UN position on the Kashmir dispute: inter alia, it states: both India and Pakistan desire that the question of the accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India or 

Pakistan should be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite.
Just as the Timorese fought Indonesian annexation, the Kashmiris have been fighting Indian 
occupation, despite Indian efforts to end this through a carrot-and-stick approach - elections 
accompanied by military repression. And the death toll for the Kashmiris has been worse than the Timorese in the fight against occupation: In the latest freedom struggle alone almost 71,200 Kashmiris have died, 29,561 have been wounded and 50,491 have been forced to leave home (figures collated from published sources). And, unlike in East Timor, the use of rape as a weapon of war by the Indian army has been established and documented by foreign NGOs and human tights organisations - and the figure for this Indian-government-sanctified deed stands at 7,613.

In fact, the case of the Kashmiris before the UN is even stronger because the occupying power itself took the dispute to the UN under Chapter VI (Pacific Settlement of Disputes) rather than Chapter VII, which deals with aggression. So, both Pakistan and India agreed to have UN intervention and to the plebiscite - as stated in the 1948 UNSC resolution cited above.

Moreover, unlike the fleeing Portuguese, the British had laid the criteria for deciding the future of the Princely states of British India: Geographical contiguity, majority of population, economic dependence. Under all these conditions Kashmir naturally would have been a part of Pakistan.While the factor of geographical contiguity is strong in the case of Indonesia, in Indias case, it had to be contrived by a distortion of the original Radcliffe Award. Again, unlike in the case of East Timor, where a sizeable minority supported Indonesia, and still does, in Kashmir baring a few handpicked loyalists, Kashmiris have rejected India and continue to do so after over five decades. That is why, successive elections by the Indians in Occupied Kashmir have become so farcical - with Kashmiris having to be dragged out by the military to vote!

Yet, the world has allowed East Timor the right of self-determination even as it continues to deny this to the Kashmiris. Why? What was it that led the West to give recognition to the Timorese leadership in the form of a Nobel Peace Prize? After all, the Kashmiri struggle against Indian occupation has continued longer and been bloodier; and the UNSC resolutions on Kashmir go further back into time. So why should the UN force Indonesia to allow self-determination to the Timorese, and allow India to continue to ignore its own commitment to the UNSC resolution?

Whichever way one looks at it, it appears religion has a lot to do with why the Timorese have had their referendum and the Kashmiris are still being denied their plebiscite. East Timor is Christian while Indonesia is a Muslim country. Hence the annexation was so distasteful to the West. After all, Indonesia was not the first to annex a contiguous colonial territory. In fact, India had annexed the Portuguese territory of Goa as early as 1971 - using the anti- colonial argument. No one talked of the right of self-determination of the Goanese people!

Now, because Kashmir happens to be predominantly Muslim and may well choose to opt for Pakistan - another Muslim country, and a nuclear one at that now - the world is willing to allow India the liberty to repress and maul the Kashmiri populace at will. Religion has become a major factor in global politics, whatever the secularists may say. Not in the sense of spirituality but in terms of defining global alliances - in terms of ideological preferences. It may be secular Turkey or the Islamic Republic of Iran or Indonesia, to the world the bottom line is that the populations of both these countries are predominantly Muslim as are their rulers.

The hypocrisy prevalent within the UN is simply a reflection of global realpolitik. The only way to assert ones rights in this milieu are through indigenous struggle that makes its way into the global consciousness - not so much because of moral principles but because vital interests of the major global players are threatened over the long term. And one critical factor now needs to come into play: A coalescing of the forces of the Muslim world. This is in the interests of all those who claim any affiliation at all with the Ummah - and as these forces coalesce, the Ummah itself will need to re-form and re-cast itself in a progressive mode. The ideological divides now forming at the global level mean that the Kashmiri struggle is not simply a problem for South Asia - rather it is an issue that strikes at the heart of the Muslim world. We must learn from the East Timor example and redefine our global perceptions.

http://www.issi.org.pk/comments/3c.htm


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## Skull-Buster

*INDIA: Rape victim and her child auctioned for six rupees in Jharkhand*
(Asian Human Rights Commission)

http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2005/1234/


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## Skull-Buster

Hardly a day passes without a case of rape being reported in Indian newspapers and media.*Women belonging to low castes, and tribal women are more at risk*. What is sad about rape in India is the lack of seriousness with which the crime is often treated.Statistics from 2000 showed that on average *a woman is raped every hour in India*. Women's groups attest that the strict and conservative attitudes about sex and family privacy contribute to ineffectiveness of India's rape laws. Victims are often reluctant to report rape. In an open court victims must prove that the rapist sexually penetrated them in order to get a conviction. This can be especially damaging. *After proving that she has been raped, a victim is often ostracized from her family and community*. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that rape laws are inadequate and definitions so narrow that prosecution is made difficult.

http://www.indianchild.com/sexual_harassment_india.htm


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## Bull

A.Rahman said:


> you are not worthy of this forum but we are tolerating you.



You get what you deserve. You want to se the betetr side of us then clean up your house.


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## Bull

A.Rahman said:


> Did Neo ever restored the post that I deleted? ... ooopps...



What a **** answer was that. Im sure he has some other job that earns him well.


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## Bull

dabong1 said:


> Do you want me to list all the rapes done by the indian scum army on the population of india?



Yes pls..go ahead.


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## dabong1

Bull said:


> Yes pls..go ahead.


Okay lets start with a few and i will keep adding so that my post is not to long.

Indian Soldiers on a Rape Spree in Tamil Nadu
Usha Ramanathan

When an enemy army occupies conquered territory it is common to hear of soldiers raping local women with no fear of punishment. But Tamil Nadu is not a conquered territory and the Indian army is not an occupation force. Then why are Indian naval personnel, soldiers and Central Reserve Police men stationed in Tamilnadu allowed to rape Tamil women with impunity?

Attempted Rape at Daylight

According to reports, a navy man from the Rameswaram Naval Base tried to rape a local woman taking bath. She cried out. Neighbors rushed to her help and beat the navy man. Though a complaint was filed with the Indian Navy, he was not punished.

Attempted Rape at a Refugee Camp

Here is another incidence involving the Rameswaram Naval Base again. Five drunken navy men, including an officer of the rank of Lieutenant Commander, went to a nearby refugee camp to rape the women there. A brave Tamil watchman at the gate tried to stop them. The Hindi-speaking navy men beat the watchman. The Deputy Collector in charge of the camp came to inquire what was happening. The navy men attacked him also. As more people came to see what was happening, the scared navy men retreated and left the camp. Though a complaint was filed, not a single one of the five culprits was punished.

Attempted Rape at Night

A Central Reserve Police check point is located in Vedaranyam, with 9 central reserve policemen posted there. On of them named Ramkishan (a typical Hindi name) went to the house of a local resident, Mr. Pakkiri Swamy, at night when he was away and tried to rape his wife. She shouted for help. Villagers from nearby houses came and chased him away. Soon he returned with eight other central reserve policemen carrying guns and threatened the villagers. Next day the villagers complained to the local politician and Tamil Nadu police. The matter was taken up with the Central Reserve Police. Ramkishan and the 8 other policemen were transferred to another area. None of them was punished.

If the Indian government cannot stop the soldiers, central reserve policemen and navy men from raping our women, Tamil Nadu state government should ask the Indian government to close down all army, navy, air force and central reserve police bases in Tamil Nadu. If the Indian government believes that such bases in Tamil Nadu are absolutely, positively necessary for the security of India, they should staff these bases in Tamil Nadu exclusively with Tamils. We do not want soldiers raping our women


Indian Army And The Legacy 
Of Rape In Manipur


By Shivali Tukdeo


In the Indian narrative of progress and development, the North East has always remained in footnotes. While mainstream media rarely takes notice of the violence caused by Indian Army in the North East, recent outpour of extreme resentment at the military forces did shake both the media and the state as forty Manipuri women --twelve of them naked-- stormed the Army headquarters in Imphal, holding signs that read Indian Army, Rape Us! Thanglam Manoramas brutal murder by Army personnel was the source of anger for the protesters. Manoramas murder is far from being an exceptional case in Manipur where rape, abuse and murder are everyday realities. In their brave protest, Manipuri women 
shamed Indian army by parading the very female body that brought humiliation and death to their sisters. With their raw anger and amazing mobilization, these women refuse to get knocked down by the rape culturethat enables the victor to demoralize their victim. 

INDIAN ARMY RAPES IN SRI LANKA
(Kanwar Sandhu reporting in the Indian Sunday Observer, December 18-24, 1988)
"After its forces entered Sri Lanka on 30 July, the IPKF was increasingly accused of raping Tamil women and of deliberately killing dozens of unarmed Tamil civilians, among them elderly people, women and children...in several cases there was eye witness evidence that the victims were non combatants shot without provocation... 

Several dozen Tamil women, some of whom needed hospital treatment, testified that they were raped by IPKF personnel. A local magistrate in the north reportedly found the IPKF had been responsible for seven cases of rape in December." - Amnesty International Annual Report, 1988 for period January to December 1987 

"The Indian Army has court martialled four of its men serving in the Jaffna peninsula for rape, a senior Indian military officer said here yesterday...He also conceded that several complaints of theft had been made against Indian soldiers. 'The Indian army are not angels. We are not devils either. We are just human' Brigadier Kahlon said when pressed for details. 'Rape happens even in the West'." - Sri Lanka Sun, 15 January 1988

"Two Indian soldiers serving in Batticaloa are to be court martialled for rape, authoritative sources in Batticaloa said yesterday... The two soldiers to be court martialled, allegedly raped two girls during a cordon and search operation at Ariyampathi on Friday" - Sri Lanka Sun, 19 January 1988


KASHMIR

At Sheerpora One Shakeela Banoo and her mother were raped by the forces. Shakeela who had delivered a baby recently was also beaten ruthlessly by the forces in the month of March 1994.

On 5-5-94, one girl Jameela D/O Gh. Mohd. Shah R/O Islamabad, was gang raped by Army posted at Khrewah and the locals protested against the barbaric act.

One Shaheena D/O Ab. Aziz R/O Pulwama Tral, was raped by the armed forces on 5-5-94 and the people came on streets to demonstrate against the barbaric act.

At Wanagam Kukarnag, Dewalgam Islamabad, ladies who were collecting fire wood in nearby forest were molested by the forces during crackdown operations on 9-5-94.

At Manigah Kupwara, three ladies were raped during crackdown operations in the house of Shah Khan on 14-5-94. In this regard an FIR stands registered in the Police station concerned and the Dy. Commissioner was also informed about the incident. The locals protested and demonstrated against the brutal act.

At Prang Kngan 4 girls were gang raped by the forces and due to continuous bleeding one girl later died on 14-5-94. 

One women was tied with ropes against a tree and she was raped in presence of her minor children at Manigah, Qazi Gund, Islamabad on 15-5-94. She was wife of a hospital employee and when the matter became public, the employees protested against the brutal act committed by the forces.

On 18-5-94, at Dangerpora, Baramulla, one lady namely, Perveena W/O Late Khursheed Ahmad and Mst. Taja, were molested. The locals protested and band was observed in the area against the barbaric act.

On 2-6-94, an attempt to rape one Haseena Banoo D/O GH. Ahmad R/O Harwan, Chandpora, Kupwara, was made by two members of the forces and due to the timely intervention and cry her chastity was saved. 

On 8-6-94, forces deployed at Rinawari, Srinagar, during late hours entered the house of one Mst. Mugli W/O Gh. Ahmad and molested her. Due to hue and cry her chastity was saved.

On 28-5-94, at Koil Tral of Pulwama a girl was molested by the forces during crackdown operation. In this regard an FIR stands registered.

At Keller Pulwama, Mst. Ashiys wife of Gul Mohd., wife of Gulzar Ahmad and Suriya W/O Bashir Ahmad, were molested by the forces during crackdown operations on 29-5-94.

At Khushipora, Qazigund, Islamabad, 20 ladies including two pundit girls were molested by the forces on 29-5-94 and forced to dance in a forest when they were collecting fire wood.

On 10-6-94, locals of Saidpora, Shopian came on streets to protest against the gang rape of two girls at the hands of forces. 

As per the media reports dated 17-6-94, the forces during late hours on 11/12-6-94, the Army entered into Hyhama, Batapora Kupwara areas headed by Mj. Ramesh and Raj Kumar of Raj Rifles where they gang-raped and molested seven ladies. Names of the ladies gang-rapped are, Mst. Hajra W/O Abdul Ghani, Bakhtawar W/O Gull Mohammad and Sarwara W/O of Alam Beig. The forces also arrested one Number Dar of the locality so that he would not be able to report the matter to the authorities. The forces also molested other ladies and their clothes were torn. The locals next day proteted against the incident.

The Indian Armed Forces molested the wife of one Nazir Ahmad Dar at Aluchabagh, Srinagar on 6-2-93. Two members of the forces during late hours forcibly entered into the house dead drunk under the pretext of search operations with the intention to rape but on making hue and cry the locals of the area raised cries due to this reason the forces did not succeed in their ill design. The next day when a complaint was registered in Police station Sheergari, some officers of the forces and local administration came for on-the-spot inspection and assured the people for taking an action under the law against the culprits. The local Police has not taken any action till date against the culprits and the case is under investigation.

At Trehgam of District Kupwara in the first week of February 1993, at Tangwadi two jawans of the Indian Armed Forces forcibly entered into the house of one Mohd. Ramzan Khan and the husband of the lady, namely Mohd. Ramzan Khan was out of home. The forces raped the poor lady one by one. The poor lady with folded hands requested the brutal forces for not committing such an act as she was pregnant but the brutal forces did not relent. The next day when the matter became public, SP. and D.C. Kupwara, visited the spot. The lady identified the BSF personnel in presence of the officers. They were handed over to the concerned officials of BSF and they simply apologised and assured that action under law will be taken against the culprits.

Three ladies namely Fahmida, Zamrooda and Bitti of village Saida Bani resident of Kulgam, Islamabad were raped by the forces on 27-5-93 (BSF 78 Btn.) during late hours. The forces of the said BSF Btn. entered their houses and raped them in separate rooms. Their mother was confined to the lawn and despite the cries of her daughters, she could not help the innocent girls. Fahmeeda a teen-aged woman having one son, her virgin sister Bitti aged above 15 years and Zamrooda aged 14 years were raped; this matter was reported to the concerned Police station where FIR No: 3 of 1993 P/S Kulgam was registered on 5-6-93. The poor lady was told by the brutal forces that in case it will come to their notice that this incident has been reported to the authorities, they will set her house ablaze and burn them alive. Also her husband namely, Jalla Sheikh was not present on the date of incident and due to the reason that her daughters may earn a bad name, she did not report the matter to the authorities immediately. Their mother Muneera was confined to the lawn. On 12-6-93 the victim ladies were medically examined at Paripora Hospital; the medical report was positive about the gang-rape. On this date the males had left the village. Fehmedia was taken in a room, her clothes torn and then gang raped by many personnel. Biti's were clothes torn and then after beatings raped by forces due to which she fell unconscious. Zamrooda 's breasts were pulled and cheeks kissed and and then raped by the brutal forces. She some how managed to jump from a window and later when the forces had left her mother brought her from a nearby place. The matter is still in the shelves of the authorities and no challan or charge sheet has been presented before the court. 

One Mst. Fatima an insane woman was raped by some uniformed persons while she was moving on the road at Lal Bazar, Srinagar. Medical examination of the woman was conducted and the case stands registered with Police Division Lal Bazar, Srinagar. No challan has been presented against anyone as yet. 

On 19-9-93 the personal of 19th Regiment Army entered into the house of one Mst. Fatima at village Karna and gang raped. The names of the personal have been reported as Puran Singh Hawaldar, Choty Lal Las Naik and Surinder Singh. The matter was reported to the Police concerned where a case under section 302, 376 and 360 RPC was registered against them. After gang rape the woman died. A charge sheet in this regard was produced before the competent court at Kupwara where these persons applied for bail. But the Sessions Judge, Kupwara refused bail. The local Police officer who had investigated the case namely Shabir Ahmad Shah was transferred as a punitive measure.

On 22.11.93, the forces during crack-down operation at Warplora Sopore gang raped Mst. Sara W/O Mohammad Rajab Genaie; later when the crack-down was lifted, her dead body with head injury and other multipal injuries on various parts of her body was seen in the nearby area. In this regard the people of the area demonstrated and observed strike; also the local Police started investigation under section 174 CrPC. After conducting the post-mortem doctor Rehana and other doctors reported that marks of violence on the neck , extensive vegina tear on left latrel side, vulval edema. Positive signs of rape and her cause of death due to plhysis due to legature pat on neck and constant power applied. In this regard the investigation is still in progress without any arrest of the culprits

One Mst. Saja aged 55 years of village Batengo Bijbeara, Islamabad was raped by the forces on 15-12-93 after the forces cordoned the village and dragged her into a room of her house. The assailants belonged to Rashtariya Rifles. Later, a case was registered in Police station Bijvbeara and is under investigation. Dy. Commissioner Islamabad is said to have written a note to Divisional Commissioner under No: D/C/Camp dated 17-12-93 wherein he has mentioned that Mst. Saja of Awarihal Gundi Hajnipora was medically examined and the report indicates that she had been raped. 

At Gundi Banihal of Doda district Jammu, Two ladies Sada and Hassina were molested and raped by the forces in the month of December 1993 when the forces after a hand grenade attack cordoned off the area under the pretext of search operations. One person was also arrested.

On 10-7-91, one lady Shara Khatoon an employee in a private firm "Ansari Motors' Zero-Bridge, SGR., was raped by three armed personnel during late hours. When her brother tried to save her from the hands of the forces, he was beaten. He managed to jump through a window due to which his arm was fractured. In this connection an F.I. R has been registered in Police Station Kothibagh, Sgr. 

On 26/27-91, during crackdown operations at at Kalaroos, Kupwara, woman folk were molested by the forces. 

In Arizal Berwa, Badgham District four ladies were raped by the forces during search operations on 12-8-91.

On 3-9-91, at Safanagri, Neloora, the forces entered into the houses of the helpless ladies and raped two ladies.

On 17-10-91, wife of one Gulla Gani R/O Arigham, Badgham was raped by the forces and when she made hue and cry, the forces shot her died. 

On 25-9-91, two army personnel raped an Australian lady, namely, Hadeson at Ladakh; later she reported the matter to the local Police and after the registration of case, the victim identified the culprits. 

On 18-11-91, one woman was raped by the soldiers of 142 B.N (B.S.F.) at Islamabad. On investigating the lady identified one soldier Jawan namely, Bomic.

In Hilar Bahi Village of Islamabad District on 5-12-91, the forces cordoned off a number of villages and started indiscriminate firing due to which 20 persons were injured and out of 20 persons five were seriously injured and two persons killed. The forces entered into the houses of the locals and raped four married ladies, including a six months pregnant lady, who later reported the matter to District Authorities Islamabad. An F.I.R has been registered in P/S Dooru Islamabad, which is under investigation. The ladies were medically examined, which established the fact that the said ladies had been raped. The forces in order to harass the people set ablaze 46 houses. After two days of incidents the pregnant lady gave birth to a dead child. Due to the threat of the forces ladies of the locality took shelter in the house of one Gh.Qadir Rather after the forces started setting ablaze the houses of the innocent people. One married lady was dragged out of a room in the said house and on gun point taken to third floor of the building where she was raped by a Sikh armed personnel.The poor lady tried her best to save her chastity but the brutal forces did not pay any heed to her request. She requested them not to commit any inhuman act because she was pregnant but the armed personnel raped her. An another lady aged about 25 was taken into the second floor of the same house and was raped by one more armed personnel. The poor lady offered her wrist watch as a bribe for not committing the inhuman act but the armed personnel raped her and other armed personnel were standing as watchmen on the door.The forces later took the said wrist watch along with them. An another lady who had come to save her house and movable goods was raped in her own house. One more lady who had also came from the field to save her valuables in the houses which the forces had set ablaze, was also raped by the forces. The whole area was under seige for number of days. Later few voluntarily organizations including local journalists, visited the area confirming the incident. A Band was observed in whole of the valley for one day as a mark of protest against the inhuman acts of the forces. Their are number of F.I.R.'s lodged in different Police stations of the state against the forces in which no action has been taken so far by the local Police. The government authorities and their stooges are deliberately avoiding to hand over the paramilitary forces wanted in the said F.I.R.'s. The local Police is helpless. On 8-1-92, the Governor in a press conference which was later reported in the local news papers on 9-1-92, admitted the incident of rape. The people believe that the Government of India is doing all this under a plan to suppress the people with the sole intention that the people of State will give up their the demand of freedom. 

On 27-12-91, the forces entered into the a house of Gh. Mohd R/O Shilwat, Baramulla and failed in their attempt to rape his wife, on the intervention of her husband. The forces while leaving the house fired at him and he received bullet injuries on his arm

At Pulwama three ladies namely, Zooni, Mehtaba and Ashia residents of Malun, Pulwama were molested by the forces on 3-1-94 during the crackdown operations.

At Pattan Mst. Shahzada W/O Gh. Ahmad Khanday was gang raped by three jawans of Raj Rifles during search operations in her house on 13-1-94. In this connection the people demonstrated and an FIR was lodged against the personnel in the concerned Police station Pattan. 

At. Bijbehara Pazwalpora, four ladies, namely, Saleema, Shah Mali, Wazira Mir and Rafiqa a minor girl were raped and molested by the forces during crackdown operations before some days of Bijbehara incident and the matter was reported to the concerned Police but till date the culprits have not been brought to book.

At Bahu, Gund and Sheikh Mohalla of Shopian of Pulwama district eight ladies namely, Shakeela 14 years, Saleema 13 years, Fathehma 13 years, Mukhti 26 years, Zeeba 45 years, Khatija 43 years, Khatija 55 years, Haleema 20 years were raped and molested by the forces of Rastria Rifle Jawans on 3-2-94 during crackdown operations in the area. One Shahzada said that four ladies were taken to the house of Gaffar Shah's house and four ladies to Hassan Sheikh's house by the forces. The male members were taken out for identification parade. She was raped three times by the forces. W/O Gh. Hassan R/O Mallapora was also raped by the forces according to a medical examination in the district hospital. One officer called Major Gill who was heading the forces said that he will marry them with his forces. There were multiple injuries on the chests of ladies. The leg of one minor boy namely, Bashir Ahmad was fractured due to the ruthless beatings of the forces. Number of persons, namely, Ab. Gani Mir, Noor Mohd., Nazir Aga, Ab. Gani Wani, Imtiyaz Aga, Manzoor Mir, Jahangeer Ahmad and Noor Mohd were arrested by the forces. In this connection an FIR No. 7/94 U/O 302 in P/S Shopian stands registered on 3-2-94.

At Tulla Mulla, Srinagar, the forces molested 4 ladies on 16-2-94 during crackdown operations and one lady due to extra bleeding was admitted in Lal Deed Hospital for treatment.

At Badgam Khriwan Mallapora two ladies Shakeela W/O Gh. Hassan Najar aged 26 years mother of three kids was raped by the forces in a room of her house on 17-2-94 during crackdown operations after a hand granade attack. Most of the villagers left the area as they knew that forces will cordon the area but she, her three minor children and her old aged father-in-law could not leave. Her father-in-law was beaten ruthlessly, her children were also given ruthless beatings and she was taken in a room and gang-raped. She was later medically examined and matter reported to the concerned Police. 

One Mst. Hajra actively resident of Bihar, had married 8 years back Gull Mohd. Sheikh at Wanabahoo Islamabad. She has a 7 years daughter and on the day of incident her husband was there. She was ill and she was molested in her compound; she later died and the happening known to her were also buried with her. Three more girls, namely, Sheeraza, Mehmooda and Sakeena daughters of Gh. Nabi Matoo residents of Wanapoo, Islamabad, were also molested by the forces during crackdown operations and an attempt was made to rape them but their brother namely, Gulzar Ahmad Shah did not allow the forces to do so and was beaten ruthlessly. Mehmooda fell unconscience and the force also looted an amount of seven thousand during search.

Two girls namely, Mst. Hamida Akhtar and Sameena 20 years old, unmarried daughters of Gh. Mohi-Ud-Din residents of Wachi Anchi Doora, Islamabad; the forces during crackdown operations after beatings kept them in one room on 25-2-94. When their mother cried and made efforts to save them, she was locked in the other room and her two daughters were raped by the forces. Their brother Syeed Ahmad Pandith was taken into custody. The forces also molested the ladies in the house of one Ab. Gaffar on the same date.

on 1-3-94, the forces entered the house of one Ab. Ahad Ganiee R/O Sikhreg, Ganiee Mohalla, Badgam and molested 4 ladies and and their attempt to rape was foiled due to their cries. Mst. Taja and her daughter were later hospitalized. In this regard protest demonstrations were made by the locals and employees. 

On 20-3-94, the forces entered into the villages Khudwani Islamabad and started beating the locals. One Lady aged about 20 years namely, Dilshada Akhter R/O Khudwani was molested by the forces during crackdown operations and in this regard a report was lodged in the concerned Police station.

On 5-1-92, the forces during late hours entered in a house at Barbar-Shah, Srinagar and committed rape. When it came in the press that an old lady who was mentally upset, has been raped, the public was moved and condemnation came from all quarters. In this regard an F.I.R. stands registered in concerned Police station. After an F.I.R. was registered, the lady was sent to hospital for medical examination; the medical report confirmed the rape. 

On 13-1-92, at Tul Bugh, Sopore of District Baramulla, the forces entered in to the house of one Gh. Mohd. Bhat and, in the absence of male members, forcibly tried to rape a lady. But upon hue and cry raised by the said lady, the locals came out and forces fired some bullets in air and ran away. The locals later came out in a procession. An F.I.R. for attempt to rape stands registered in the concerned Police station. 

On 1st August, 1992, two British girls (sisters in relation) namely MS. Stevenson Jenet and Stevenson Joane bearing passport numbers 731038/92 Tv. 324663/92 and 1630668, Tv. 32463/92 respectively went on a Shikara Tour through river Jehlum which passes through the main city. These ladies had arrived at srinagar on 31-7-92. They left in the morning, along with two boatman and a guide. On reaching near Zainakadal bridge located in downtown city, the forces stopped them and took them in a houseboat along with the two sikara drivers and guide. The forces had in a routine matter cordoned off the area under the pretext of search operations. As reported the forces asked them to lie down as the militants were just to attack on them. The forces took the two sikara drivers and guide to some unknown place. When the two sister's asked the forces to leave them as they were tourists, nobody would listen . Then the forces attempted to rape them but as per the ladies, they managed to escape when they jumped into the sikara which was nearby . The people came for their rescue and a pressman namely Qaiser Mirza also interviewed them. When the news came to public and the pressman in an interview on Voice of America heard the news, the government came with a handout that no molestation of these two young ladies has taken place and it was reported in the press that in the army handout the ladies had manipulated the story at the behest of militants in order to defame the forces. In this connection an F.I.R No. 168/92 U/S 376/511 and 354 stands registered in P/S M.R.Gunj, which is pending investigation. In our previous report one lady journalist was raped by the National security Guard Personnel and a final charge sheet had been presented against those culprits as reported. The Government authorities said that one person namely Mohd. Ayub Badyari who was the guide in the sikara, was declared as a Pakistan Trained Militant. The government has everything in their own hands in order to declare a person as a militant or an innocent but after their goal is over. A person after arrest is released half-dead due to the third degree torture and that released person may or may not recover is a question of luck. The government played a master card in order to avoid humiliation at the hands of world community, when they declared M.Ayub. Badyari as militant and the poor , innocent person is still in custody. The two ladies cancelled their tour and left the valley next day. Now they are in their own country and truth can be ascertained form them.

At Batakote, Handwara of district Kupwara, the forces had been attacked at Achkote about two kilometers away from the place of incident. The forces had suffered some causality; the forces in order to take revenge, entered the area, and dragged out the locals out of their houses. When the innocent old aged people wanted to inquire about the behavior, the forces fired on the young people. The brutal forces entered into a house and killed three women who tried to intervene after their kiths and kins were shot at by the forces. The forces molested and raped four ladies. When the people came to know about the incident, a number of human right activists and journalists reached the spot and in this connection a case was already registered in the concerned Police station. The lady victims were referred to a doctor for examination in order to ascertain the presence of semen and marks of violence on the victims. The case is under investigation and the local Police in almost in all the cases which have been registered against the forces, have not proceeded under law because of the helplessness better known to the them.

On the intervening night of 10/11-10-92, the forces entered into the village of Cheek-E-Saidpora, Shopian in district Pulwama, under the pretext of search operations and asked all the male members to assemble at a particular place for identification purposes. The forces in absence of the male members forcibly raped an 11 years minor girl and five other ladies. On hue and cry of the ladies, the forces were compelled to lift the cordon and the people after entering the homes were narrated the tailful story by the female folk. When the news came known to the public, some of the human right activists went to the spot and were first stopped by the forces but later they entered the village. The victims were taken to hospital for medical check-ups; a lady doctor Safia after medical examination gave a statement that there were positive signs of rape and on the minor girl marks of violence were also seen. This examination was done in presence of Dr. Bashir Ahmad and Dr. A.N.Butt. One lady had given birth of child just some months back. One Doctor namely Dulat Hussain has been arrested by the forces and his whereabouts are not yet known. His mother has complained that he has not returned home after the arrest and all doctors have a reasonable belief that the government is deliberately causing harassment to the doctors to stop them giving honest opinion.

On 24-12-92, one shepherd lady was raped by the Indian Armed Forces (BSF) and after registering a complaint in the concerned Police station at Uri of District Baramulla, some jawans of BSF reportedly kidnapped including her kids and husband. The forces have been continuously harassing the people during crackdowns in case somebody complains against them before the authorities. 

Chanapora - 7-3-90 CRPF personnel raided the house in the locality-one woman aged 24 years was taken out of the kitchen and raped by 20 CRPF personnels. Another woman was also raped . Two minor girls of the age of 14 and 16 were molested.

Badasgam Village - During the intervening night of 17/18th May,1990, bus #1317 carrying 27 persons holding valid permission from BSF, of a marriage party, was stopped near Badasgam village, district Islamabad crossing about 23.30 hours by BSF patrolling party . The BSF personnel opened indiscriminate firing upon the bus. M. Abdullah S/O Gani Malik R/O Lisser died instantaneously. Bridegroom and eight other persons accompanying him received injuries. Bride and her chamber-maid were gang raped by the BSF personnel . The bride was taken away by them leaving behind chamber-maid and subsequently released after 48 hours . The bus was removed to district Police lines; it had seventy-eight bullet-hole marks. A case was duly registered in the concerned Police station and an inquiry was conducted by the then DIG Kashmir and a medical report also obtained duly proved the lady was raped. However despite the assurances given by the Government from time to time for taking necessary action against the culprits, Government authorities have failed to bring the culprits on record. The normal trend of the Government during these years is to hide the atrocities committed by the Indian armed and paramilitary forces in order to dodge the Amenesty International and the world Human Rights Organizations. This normal trend of dodging is still continuing. 

PANZGAM DISTRICT PULWAMA - One woman during serch operations at Panzgam was raped on 9.6.1990 at 7P.M by the Army personal. Males were tied to a tree and a 18 year-old unmarried girl was gang-raped by the forces. 

One woman who had delivered a baby only 30 days earlier was gang-raped by the Army and Paramilitary Forces.

A lady was raped by the armed forces of 268 Bn. In this episode 48 personal were involved including an officer.

On 14-6-90, 68th Mountain Brigade while combing operations at Threggam, Haigam and Dalipora, molested young ladies and a daughter of one person was subjected to rape. Her body was found full of bruises, flesh of left cheek had been carved-out and the woman folk was compelled to be nude.

On 17-6-90, 68Bn Mountain Brigade during crack-down, raped one lady and the act was carried out by six Army Personnel in her own house. The poor girl tried to commit suicide after the brutal attack and has lost her mental balance.

On the same date i.e 17-6-90, young ladies were molested and the daughter of one inhabitant in order to save her chastity jumped from the 2nd story; both her legs were fractured and had to be given a plaster cast.

On 22-6-90, at Panzipora, one young girl was forcibly made nude, assaulted and compelled to make a nude parade in the village. During this process, Army Personal were scratching flesh from her nude body.

On 17-6-90, scores of women were molested by the Army Personal. Markes of tooth bites were visible on the cheeks of the women. Their clothes were torn and forced into nude.

On 17-6-90, B.S.F. personnel entered into houses, compelled males to come out of their houses and forcibly raped two ladies at their residence. Again on the same date, at Machter, Chokibal, a couple was arrested and taken to Army camp. Husband was tied and his wife was subjected to rape by six Army personnel. Again on the same date, wife of one person was raped in presence of her husband. Again on the same date, one woman was compelled to take off her cloths in presence of her father. The poor girl was subjected to rape by a number of Army personnel and was left unconscious in a nude condition. Father of the girl was beaten severely and his arm was fractured.

On 19-5-90 at Ladervan, one young girl was hanged up side down for four hours on a tree. She was given electric shocks due to which she became unconscious.On recovery, again she was beaten severely. The body of the girl was full of bruises and has lost her mental balance. On the same date, one woman mother of four kids was physically tortured and molested . She was hanged upside down on a tree and then locked in a room where she was given electric shocks and later she was left, believing her dead. Again on the same date, a woman was physically tortured. Cigarette burns were visible on her body and was also subjected to electric shocks.

LAL-BAZAR,SRINAGAR - Three unmarried daughters of one respectable family were picked-up by the Indian Armed Forces to Cantonment Area, Srinagar. They were released after two nights, after being subjected to sexual assault. They were released after lot of persuasion by the Director General of Police J&K.

ISLAMIA COLLEGE, SRINAGAR - One girl, while she was walking during the period of curfew relaxation was forcibly taken into college premises by the Paramilitary forces and released after two nights during which period she was subjected to sexual assault. It should be pointed out that the College was being used as a picket and an interrogation center by the forces.

WADVAN DISTRICT BADGAM - In this District 14 women were gang-raped by the Army and other Paramilitary forces on the intervening night of 25/26June,1990. One of them died at S.M.H.S Hospital, Srinagar(Emergency Ward) on 11-7-90.

HANDWARA DISTRICT KUPWARA - 12-7-90, B.S.F Personal cordoned off four villages Chogal for search. This also included the village Saghipora. They ordered all inhabitants to come out of their houses except females between 16 to 22 years age group. They then entered their houses and raped 12 girls.

In the month of August,1990, one Chowkidar along with his daughter was going to village Chokibal, Kupwara District; six army personnels tied the father of the lady against a tree and raped her. 

In village Lushhat, Kupwara, which is close to the line of actual control, a sixteen year old girl and her mother were raped by the forces in the month of August,1990. The District authorities went to the spot immediately after the incident and recorded the statement of witnesses and made the inspection The officers reported the matter to the Divisional Commissioner Srinagar for taking necessary action under law against the culprits involved in the rape incident. The government transferred the officer to some other place, in order to punish him for reporting the matter for action. 


Theres a few to get you started


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## Bull

thanks.....'Indian soldiers allowed to rape in TN'...wow.....!!!


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## Adux

dabong1 said:


> Oooohh so when it upsets you its flamebait and when its the other way round you want to bring free speech into it.
> You can call the freedom fighters scum but i can not call the indian army in kashmir scum......... INDIAN ARMY IN KASHMIR IS SCUM FREE SPEECH



can never get as scum as terrorist supporting PA


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## Skull-Buster

Adux said:


> can never get as scum as terrorist supporting PA



ooh...how about staging fake encounters for medals? and raping innocent women and girls? mass murdering? conducting state terrorism??? IA is not even worthy to be called scum....it will be a disgrace to the word "scum"...


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## Skull-Buster




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## Contrarian

edited......


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## akzaman

*India 'admits to Kashmir abuses*

A US-based human rights group says the Indian army has admitted to killing militants as a matter of policy.

The Human Rights Watch report on the situation in Indian-administered Kashmir also criticises the militants and Pakistan for abetting violence.The report says the situation in Kashmir has improved over the past two years, but it is still severe.Since 1989 when militancy began in Kashmir, the report says more than 50,000 people have been killed.

*'Summary executions'*
Releasing the 156-page report, Everyone Lives in Fear, the Asia Director of Human Rights Watch, Brad Adams, said extrajudicial executions by Indian security forces were common.
"Police and army officials have told Human Rights Watch that security forces often execute alleged militants instead of bringing them to trial in the belief that keeping hardcore militants in detention is a security risk," he said.

"Most of those summarily executed are falsely reported to have died during armed clashes between the army and the militants," he added.Mr Adams said the immunity given to security force personnel deployed in Kashmir encourages them to commit violations.

"It is absurd that the world's largest democracy, with a well-developed legal system and internationally-recognised judiciary, has laws on its books that prevent members of its security forces from being prosecuted for human rights abuses," he said.

*Critical of militants*
Human Rights Watch is also critical of the militants who are fighting Indian rule for attacking civilians."Indian security forces claim they are fighting to protect Kashmiris from militants and Islamic extremists, while militants claim they are fighting for Kashmiri independence and to defend Muslim Kashmiris from an abusive Indian army," says the report.It adds that, "in reality, both sides have committed widespread and numerous human rights abuses and violations of international humanitarian law."

The report says the militants "have attacked religious minorities such as Hindus and Sikhs as well as ethnic minorities such as the Gujjars whom they believe to be government informers".
Many of the militant groups currently operating in Kashmir have become increasingly unpopular, says the report. But, it adds, "the people are afraid to speak out against them."

*'Pakistan backing militants'*
Pakistan's role also came in for criticism.There is considerable evidence that over many years Pakistan has provided Kashmiri militants with training, weapons, funding and sanctuary," Mr Adams said.

The report says that under pressure from the US after the attack on the World Trade Centre in New York in 2001, Pakistan has banned some militant groups like Jaish-e-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toiba.But these groups continue to operate after changing their names, says the report.

Mr Adams says the militants and their backers must end the bombings and the targeting of civilians."Continued abuses ensure that the cycle of violence will continue. And these abuses only add to the suffering of the people in whose name the militants are ostensibly fighting." he said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5338158.stm


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## Bull

akzaman said:


> *India 'admits to Kashmir abuses*
> 
> A US-based human rights group says the Indian army has admitted to killing militants as a matter of policy.



Well two lines say two different stories.


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## dabong1

Bull said:


> thanks.....'Indian soldiers allowed to rape in TN'...wow.....!!!




I can carry on it you want?
Have you just found out about your army was raping woman in TM,what about manipur.
http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/mag/2004/07/25/stories/2004072500420300.htm


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## akzaman

*International report documents repression in Indian-controlled Kashmir*

By Parwini Zora and Daniel Woreck

A recent report by the US-based Human Rights Watch (HRW) documents the systematic human rights abuses carried out by the Indian security forces in the state of Jammu and Kashmir with the protection of the Indian government and legal system. 

HRW conducted research for the report, entitled "Everyone Lives in Fear: Patterns of Impunity in Jammu and Kashmir," from 2004 to February 2006 in Indian-controlled Kashmir. It was the first time since 1989 that the Indian government had allowed an international human rights body to visit and report on the state. HRW also conducted research in Pakistani-controlled Kashmir in 2005 and 2006. 

The report provides detailed accounts and interviews implicating the Indian security forces in torture, disappearances, arbitrary detentions and summary executions, which are concealed as "encounter killings".

The report stressed that the estimated 700,000 Indian soldiers and paramilitaries in Kashmir carry out widespread repression with impunity. Indian laws protect members of the armed forces and civilian officials involved in crimes against Kashmiris. Soldiers responsible for murders and torture are rarely investigated or held accountable for their crimes. 

The Asian director of Human Rights Watch, Brad Adams, told the press in September: "Human rights abuses have been a cause as well as a consequence of the insurgency in Kashmir.... Kashmiris continue to live in constant fear because perpetrators of abuses are not punished. Unless the Indian authorities address the human rights crisis in Jammu and Kashmir, a political settlement of the conflict will remain illusory." 

The report also covers in significant detail the massacres, bombings and political killings committed by various armed groups opposed to Indian rule of Kashmir. While HRW equates the violence of the Indian military and that of the militants, the outbreak of the armed conflict in the late 1980s resulted from decades of oppressive, anti-democratic Indian rule of the majority Muslim state. 

The continuing conflict in Kashmir underlines the inherently reactionary character of the 1947 partition of British India into the current Muslim Pakistan and a Hindu-dominated India. The division of the subcontinent along artificial boundaries that cut across national, ethnic and language groupings laid the groundwork for future conflicts and wars that resulted in some 2 million deaths, turned millions more into refugees and divided the Kashmiri region into Indian and Pakistani-held areas. 

Subsequently, successive Indian governments have proved incapable of meeting the aspirations of the Kashmiri Muslims for genuine democratic rights and decent living standards. Seeking to ensure Indian domination over Kashmir, the Indian elite rescinded an agreement to give more autonomy to the state. Kashmiris began to take up arms in the late 1980s after the Indian government blatantly rigged state elections in Jammu and Kashmir 

Since 1989, at least 20,000 Kashmiri civilians have been killed as a result of the armed conflict and tens of thousands more have been injured according to the HRW report. About 300,000 Hindu Kashmiris have been internally displaced and another 30,000 Muslim Kashmiris have fled to neighbouring Pakistan as refugees. 

The report cited evidence of summary killings of suspected militants. Police and army officials told HRW that detained suspects were often executed rather than being brought to jail, on the grounds that "keeping hardcore militants in gaol is a security risk". The deaths were often falsely recorded as the result of "encounter killings". One example was the case of five men shot supposedly in an armed "encounter". While the army and police claimed the men were responsible for the massacre of 36 Kashmiri Sikhs in 2000, forensic tests later showed the men to be innocent local villagers. 

Indian security forces have extensive powers under the Jammu and Kashmir Disturbed Areas Act and the Armed Forces (Jammu and Kashmir) Special Powers Act to use lethal force against anyone "who is acting in contravention of any law or order for the time being in force in the disturbed area". The report cited an incident on February 23, 2006 in which soldiers in Handawara shot at a group of people playing cricket because they suspected that a Kashmiri separatist was among them. Four boys, including an eight-year-old, were killed. 

Kashmiri human rights defenders estimate that over 8,000 Kashmiris have simply "disappeared" since 1989. Most were last seen in the custody of Indian troops, who in turn denied holding the person. Many were tortured and then executed. 

One case involved Manzoor Ahmed Mir, a 37-year-old state employee. A group of soldiers accompanied by three masked men took him away on September 12, 2004. Manzoor's brother recognised the men as a police sub-inspector, with whom Manzoor had quarrelled, and the sub-inspector's two sons. Manzoor's family filed a habeas corpus petition in the Srinigar High Court but by February 2006 the police and army had not responded. 

The HRW report stated that thousands of Kashmiris have been arbitrarily and illegally detained. One of India's Additional Advocate Generals recently stated there were 4,500 suspected militants awaiting trial in jail. Many have been held for 10 years or more without being brought before a court. Indian authorities often detain Kashmiris under the Jammu and Kashmir Public Safety Act, which allows for detention without trial for up to two years, because they have no evidence of guilt. 

Many people have been detained beyond two years by simply rolling over preventative detention orders. Amnesty International reported on the case of Farooq Ahmad Dar, who was detained in November last year under his ninth consecutive PSA order. He has been in continuous detention since 1991. 

Based on information from Mian Abdul Qayoom, president of the Jammu and Kashmir High Court Bar Association, HRW reported that individuals had filed at least 60,000 habeas corpus petitions since 1990 to contest detentions or "disappearances". However, according to HRW, there are few, if any, cases in which "officials have been held responsible for failing to respond in a timely manner to a court order in a habeas corpus case or for failing to release a detainee pursuant to a court order in Jammu and Kashmir". 

Those in state custody are commonly tortured. "Relatives of militants are also taken into custody and tortured, either to discover the whereabouts of a suspect, or as a way of forcing the militant to surrender," the report stated. The brother of a wanted Kashmiri told HRW that Indian forces had beaten him and given him electric shocks while in custody to try to force his brother to surrender. The torture only stopped when soldiers killed his brother. 

Legal immunity
Most cases of serious human rights abuse in the Jammu and Kashmir region are not officially investigated. In the rare instances where abuses are probed, there has not been a single individual in the Indian army, paramilitary or the police convicted of a criminal offence. In fact, since 1989 only 134 army personnel, 79 members of the Border Security Force and 60 policemen have been subjected to "disciplinary action". 

There is no civilian control over the proceedings of the military justice system. In addition, the provisions of the Criminal Procedure Code of 1973 protect any member of the armed forces from arrest for "anything done or purported to be done by him in the discharge of his official duties except after obtaining the consent of the central government". 

Section 197(2) of the Criminal Procedure Code is a sweeping immunity provision that applies throughout India. In the words of the HRW report, this code "makes it mandatory for a prosecutor to obtain permission from the federal government to initiate criminal proceedings against public servants, including armed forces personnel". According to Amnesty International, the Jammu and Kashmir government had made almost 300 requests for permission to prosecute last year, but none were granted. 

Security forces have used the Jammu and Kashmir Disturbed Areas Act and the Armed Forces (Jammu and Kashmir) Special Powers Act to justify firing indiscriminately on peaceful demonstrations, including protests in January and October 1990 in Srinagar and in 1993 in Beijbehara. 

The HRW report is one more account of the widespread and sustained use of repression for over a decade in Jammu and Kashmir. There is no reason to believe that the current Congress-led government in New Delhi will take any more notice of its recommendations than any of the previous calls for justice. 
The report underscores the fact that in India, which is commonly referred to as the world's largest democracy, the systematic abuse of basic democratic rights is widespread.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/nov2006/kash-n30.shtml


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## imiakhtar

akzaman, thankyou for all you sources regarding the atrocities commited by the IA in IOK. You seem to be unaware of the human rights abuses by the PA in waziristan and balochistan.


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## Adux

imiakhtar said:


> akzaman, thankyou for all you sources regarding the atrocities commited by the IA in IOK. You seem to be unaware of the human rights abuses by the PA in waziristan and balochistan.



SHHHHH, those are not be spoken, _"They never happened"_


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## Bull

dabong1 said:


> I can carry on it you want?
> Have you just found out about your army was raping woman in TM,what about manipur.
> http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/mag/2004/07/25/stories/2004072500420300.htm



I didnt know they were allowed to!!!

And pls carry on posting, somebody might be reading it.


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## akzaman

*VIOLATIONS BY INDIAN GOVERNMENT FORCES:ABUSES BY UNIFORMED INDIAN SECURITY PERSONNEL*

Extrajudicial Executions and Reprisal Killings

The systematic, summary execution of suspected militants by regular Indian forces in Kashmir has been a hallmark of counterinsurgency operations in the conflict. After escalating sharply in 1992-93, when military authorities in Kashmir launched a "catch-and-kill" operation against the militants, these killings have only declined to the extent that some have been subcontracted to irregular state-sponsored forces. There has been no change in policy about the practice. Army and BSF forces have continued to execute captured militant suspects routinely, in violation of international human rights and humanitarian law. In six and a half years of war, such executions and disappearances in Kashmir number well into the hundreds, if not higher. 

Most extrajudicial killings carried out by Indian security forces in Kashmir occur after "crackdowns" cordon and search operations during which all the men of a neighborhood or village are called to assemble for an identification parade in front of hooded informers. Those whom the informers point out are taken away for torture and interrogation, and some are simply taken away and shot. Officials in Kashmir routinely claim that the detainee was killed in an "encounter" with the security forces, or was shot trying to escape. Human rights groups in Kashmir have documented hundreds of such killings . In its annual report covering events of 1995, the U.S. State Department stated that "[H]uman rights groups consider credible reports that dozens of such killings occur every month."58 Detainees have also disappeared in the custody of the security forces.

Since 1994, there have been fewer incidents in which government forces engaged in reprisal killings of civilians or used lethal force on a large scale against peaceful demonstrators. However, incidents in which the security forces have opened fire on civilians during crackdowns have continued. In the two cases described below, those who were shot were clearly identified as civilians. As with other summary executions, the authorities generally claim that civilian casualties during such operations result from "cross-fire."

Security legislation has increased the likelihood of such abuses by authorizing the security forces to shoot to kill and to destroy civilian property. Under these laws, the security forces are protected from prosecution for human rights violations.59

The Killing of Mohammad B. and Sheikh Y. 

On January 20, 1995, Indian army forces of the 2nd Grenades unit conducted a crackdown in Batmaloo, Srinagar. At least two men taken into custody by the soldiers were summarily executed. Ghulam B., forty-eight, described the killing of his brother, Mohammad, a forty-two-year-old businessman.
At about 10:00 am on January 20, 1995, I was in my house in Batmaloo, Srinagar, along with my mother and father, Mohammad and his wife and children, and a servant. Mohammad was on the phone to Delhi when we heard gunfire outside, and we all went into a single room. Fifteen minutes later, there was a knock on the door. Four uniformed army soldiers of the 2nd Grenades came inside and pulled my ninety-year-old father, Mohammad, the servant and me outside. The soldiers were accusing us of being "terrorists." They accused Mohammad of being Afghan. 

Leaving the father at the house, the soldiers took the men with them, along with a nephew, G. Some twenty-five soldiers were gathered around outside. They ordered the men to get shovels and shovel snow for half an hour. Then four of the soldiers took Ghulam and broke down the door of a nearby house belonging to Ghulam's uncle. Ghulam and Mohammad were made to search some six other houses; the soldiers were looking for guns and militants.60 The search went on for half an hour. Ghulam told Human Rights Watch:

From time to time, the soldiers would hit me and point their guns at my head and tell me they would kill me. Several times while I was with soldiers, they came under gunfire [from militant forces] and they would force me to stand in front of them as they ran and returned fire. 

At 11:30am, the soldiers completed the searches of six houses and took Ghulam to a more populated neighborhood in the same area. At that point, he saw the soldiers take Mohammad away. An announcement was made through the loudspeakers at the mosque that everyone in the area should come out of their houses and assemble outside the graveyard. Ghulam continued to search apartments in the area with the soldiers and six other civilians.

At about 4:00 pm Ghulam was with the soldier when they again came under heavy gunfire. The soldiers fired back, again using him as shield. A number of soldiers were injured in the fire, and Ghulam and other civilians were ordered to carry the wounded soldiers to army vehicles at the main intersection. As they began to do so, one of the civilians, Hassan Shah, a retired policeman who was over sixty, was shot in the arm. 

We asked permission to carry Shah to the SMHS hospital, half a kilometer way, on foot and by auto rickshaw. Mohinder Singh, commander of the 2nd Grenades, allowed us to do so. I ran away to mysister's house and phoned my mother. She asked me, "Where is your brother? I told her I did not know. I stayed at my sister's house that night. 

The crackdown was on a Friday. On Saturday, in Nagerwal, residents reported that two bodies had been thrown out of the window of a nearby school at 4:00 pm on the day of the crackdown, and that the bodies were riddled with bullets.

On Saturday, Ghulam went to the Ram Munshi Bagh police station and found Mohammad's body.61 He described the condition of the body:

There was blood around the mouth and blood on his hands. There were two other bodies there as well. I asked for the body back, and the police had me sign a paper for it.

A neighbor, Sheikh A., was with Mohammad after the soldiers took him away. He told Human Rights Watch that the soldiers came to his house and ordered him and his nineteen-year-old son, Sheikh Y., to come with them. 

At 9:00am I was in my house with my wife, son and daughter. Sheikh Y. went outside to buy some food, but returned to say that the army was nearby. All of us went upstairs to the second floor. The soldiers knocked on the door, entered the house and yelled for all of us to come downstairs or we would be killed. The soldiers took me and my son outside and took us in the direction of the government middle school in Lachmanpara, which is commonly used as an interrogation center during crackdowns. Before we arrived at the school, the soldiers told me to go to the graveyard nearby. I went and found twenty-five or thirty other people sitting there. I could hear the soldiers questioning my son. They were accusing him of firing on soldiers. My son denied it. Then a soldier took him inside the school. As I sat in the graveyard, I could hear cries from my son inside the school. I stood up, but Mohammad, who was with him in the graveyard, warned me to sit down, as the soldiers were nervous and might shoot me.

A short while later, the soldiers came up with an informer who surveyed the group of men seated at the graveyard, then pointed at Mohammad and said to the soldiers, "Take him, he is a militant." The soldiers told Mohammad to stand up and called him an "Afghani [sic] militant." Mohammad told them he had a grinding machine and was a businessman, not a militant. The soldiers took him into the school. Then the soldiers took Sheikh A. and the others in the graveyard and made them sit in snow. They were kept at the graveyard until 9:00 pm

In the afternoon some people were taken from the cemetery and were made to carry metal pipes. When they were brought back to the cemetery, they told Sheikh A. that the soldiers had used the pipes to spray kerosene on the mosque in the area, which the soldiers had then burned down. Later in the afternoon, Sheikh A. was also made to carry pipes, and he saw the mosque burning. Then he was brought back to the cemetery. At 9:00 pm the men were allowed to go home. Sheikh A. returned with a gas lamp to search inside the school, but was unable to find anyone. Later that night a neighbor told him that two bodies had been thrown from one of the school's windows. He examined the site and found blood on the snow nearby but no bodies. Later that night, at Jammu and Kashmir, he learned from a police officer that three civilians from Batmaloo had been killed earlier that day in "crossfire" between the army and the militants. Sheikh A. told Human Rights Watch/Asia:

The following day, in the morning, I went to the police station at Ram Munshi Bagh, but I was told that the bodies were not there, but were at the Joint Interrogation Center, Sonawar. I went there, but they were not there. I went back to the police station where I saw trucks with the bodies of my son, Mohammad and a third man. After that I went to the police station to file an FIR against the army for the deaths of my son and Mohammad. But I was told by a friend, who is a police officer, that he hadbeen told not to accept any FIRs against the army or security forces. Then I went to the district magistrate, who ordered the police to accept the FIR. So the police registered the FIR on February 7, 1995.

The Killing of Ghulam Ahmed Bhat

Ghulam Ahmed Bhat, eighteen, was killed by troops of the Seventh Battallion of the BSF on December 21, 1995. As a result of a childhood illness, Ghulam had been unable to hear or speak since he was four years old.

At about 10:00am on December 21, Ghulam was standing in a lane in front of the house in Bulbulankar, Nawakadal, in Srinagar, along with his mother and a number of other people. The neighborhood was unusually crowded because a procession was planned in honor of Kurshid Ahmed Bhat, chief of the Al Jihad Force who was killed on December 17, 1995.62 A crackdown was just beginning, and BSF troops from the Seventh Battallion, under Commander "Peter" Sharma, entered the neighborhood. Seeing the BSF soldiers running, Ghulam started to run and his mother ran after him to protect him. 

After running along a long, narrow lane, Ghulam stopped and tried to show the soldiers that he was deaf and ****. Then he started running again. Ghulam's mother told Human Rights Watch/Asia:

Three soldiers came after him, and one fired a machine gun burst, killing him. One soldier then kicked the body to make sure he was dead. I began crying, but the soldiers would not allow me to take Ghulam's body. About half an hour after he was shot, two or three BSF soldiers came to the area. One put a pistol on Ghulam's chest; and the other one put bullets in the pocket of his pheran. At 2:00pm, the crackdown was lifted, and the Jammu and Kashmir police arrived. They screamed at the BSF that the boy was not a militant and that they should not have killed him.

The police took the body to the police station. At 5:00pm, the body was brought home by neighbors. There was a bullet wound in the back of the head. At the time the body was handed over from police, the mother's brother, Mohammad Siddiq, was made to sign a blank paper. The next morning, two shopkeepers and a neighbor came to the mother's house and said they were coming on behalf of Commander "Peter" Sharma and said that he would pay her Rs. 200,000 not to bring a case against the BSF in court. She did not accept, and filed a case against the BSF.

The Killing of Khurshid Ahmed Bhat

Khurshid Ahmed Bhat, alias "Khalid Javeed," former head of Jihad Force, was killed after being taken into custody by BSF forces on December 18, 1995. At 9:30pm, a patrol party of several BSF vehicles came to the neighborhood of Butyar, in Srinagar. From his upstairs window, N.D., a witness, saw BSF troops encircling the house of one of his neighbors. At 10:30 pm, they entered the house and N.D. heard cries coming from the house. N.D. told Human Rights Watch/Asia:

The BSF brought my neighbor and his son out of the house and into the inner courtyard. They beat them and asked them where Javeed was. They said they did not know. One of the soldiers knocked the father to the ground, and when his wife came out and pleaded with the soldiers not to beat her husband and son, one soldier ripped off the top portion of her pheran and struck her on the chest. When the daughter came out the soldier did the same to her. At this point, Khurshid Ahmed Bhat walked out of the house. The soldiers immediately hit him with their rifles on his thighs and on the back of his head. Blood came out of his mouth. The soldiers then took hold of the daughter and told Khurshid to ""engage in nasty acts with her." He refused and said "I am the man you want, that's it."

The soldiers put Bhat into a truck and drove away. They left at midnight. The next morning, BSF soldiers came to the area and fired shots into the air for more than half an hour, and then withdrew. Shortly after that, the Jammu and Kashmir police came and told the residents that a dead body had been found, and they needed someone to come and identify it. N.D. went with others from the neighborhood to see the body at the local police station. N.D. described the condition of the body: 

There was a lot of blood and several wounds on the forehead and nose, a cut in the mouth, wounds on the back and chest, cuts on the legs and arms, and a broken elbow. 

Human Rights Watch/Asia saw photographs of the body. There was a bullet wound in the forehead, a bullet wound on the nose and a large open wound on the back of the head. There were also scrapes and cuts on the chest and mouth.

In an official report of the killing, the government claimed that Bhat died in an encounter with security forces.

Bhat's relatives have stated that they were approached by BSF Commander "Peter" Sharma, whose troops were responsible for the murder, and offered money not to bring a case in court. The family refused and has registered a case against the BSF. To Human Rights Watch/Asia's knowledge, no investigation has taken place.

The Shooting of Ghulam M.

In some cases, the security forces have opened fire on civilians even after the civilians have identified themselves. Ghulam M. was shot and injured by BSF soldiers outside his home in Ganderbal, thirty kilometers north of Srinagar, on December 6, 1995. 

At about 8:00pm, I heard gunfire near my house. An hour later, I went outside to my shop to make sure that my two sons, who worked there, were safe. I was accompanied by a cousin and another son. We were carrying a gas light. As we reached the shop, we saw a soldier wearing white military boots lying on the road. He called out, "Who are you?" I replied that we were civilians. Then shots rang out. I was hit by a bullet in the right knee. My son cried out, "You've shot my father," and the BSF soldier yelled abusive language at him. 

Ghulam M. was taken to the Bone and Joint Hospital, and his right leg was amputated from above the knee.

Torture

Torture has remained a constant in Kashmir. In his report of January 9, 1996, U.N. Special Rapporteur on Torture Nigel Rodley stated: 

[The Special Rapporteur has] received information that torture was practiced routinely by the army, the Border Security Force (BSF) and Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) against the vast majority of persons arrested for political reasons in Jammu and Kashmir. Official investigations into allegations of torture, including those that resulted in custodial deaths, were said to be rare. On the few occasions when such investigations had taken place, they were carried out by the security forces themselves, rather than by an independent body.63

There is no evidence that the government of India has taken serious steps to curb the practice of torture in Kashmir. Most detainees taken into custody by the security forces in Kashmir continue to be tortured. The methods that have long been practiced in the state are fairly crude, and the security forces have demonstrated little concern fordisguising injuries caused by torture. These methods include prolonged beatings, electric shock, burning with heated objects and crushing the muscles with a wooden roller. Detainees are generally held in temporary detention centers, controlled by the various security forces, without access to the courts, relatives or medical care.

Although the government has made some effort to publicize courts-martial and punishments of security personnel who have committed rape, many charges of rape continue to go uninvestigated. As with other methods of torture, rape has been used to punish suspected militant sympathizers and create a climate of fear. 

Detention Procedures that Facilitate Torture

Torture usually takes place in interrogation centers operated by the security forces, and it almost always occurs in the first hours or days after the victim is detained. Every security force has its own interrogation centers in Kashmir, which include temporary detention centers at BSF, CRPF and army camps, hotels and other buildings that have been taken over by security forces.64 Detainees are first interrogated by the detaining security force for periods of time which may range from several hours to several weeks. During this time the detainee is not produced before a court or given access to anyone outside the interrogation center. Those suspected of being militants may then be interrogated at Joint Interrogation Centres (JICs) at which each security force is represented. Detention at the JIC may last for months.

Indian security personnel routinely ignore procedural safeguards designed to prevent torture when taking persons into custody. Although Indian law requires that everyone taken into custody must be produced before a magistrate within twenty-four hours, in fact, detainees are rarely produced at all.65 Prohibitions and safeguards against torture in the Indian Penal Code (IPC) and the Code of Criminal Procedure (CCrP),66 which prohibit the use of coerced confessions and prescribe inquiries into deaths in custody and prison terms for officers guilty of torture, are also routinely disregarded. To Human Rights Watch/Asia's knowledge, the government has never made public any action it has taken to hold security personnel responsible for torture in Kashmir criminally liable for their actions. The U.N. Code of Conduct for Law Enforcement Officials (Resolution 34/169, December 17, 1979) states, in Article 5, that "no law enforcement officials may inflict, instigate, or tolerate any act of torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment nor may any law enforcement official invoke superior order in exceptional circumstances such as . . . internal political instability or any other public emergency . . . as justification for torture."

Lawyers in Kashmir have filed more than 15,000 habeas corpus petitions since 1990 calling on state authorities to reveal the whereabouts of detainees and the charges against them. However, in the vast majority of cases, the authorities have not responded, and the petitions remain pending in the courts. A large number of bail applications are also pending. Even when the High Court has ordered state authorities to produce detainees in court or release those against whom no charges have been brought, state and security force officials have refused to comply. Lawyers have also filed petitions charging officials with contempt for non-compliance, but these petitions have also received no response.

Under pressure from the authorities, the courts routinely grant government officials extended time to respond to petitions. Detainees who have been held for up to a year have not been granted access to legal counsel. The Jammu andKashmir Bar Association has a list of 100 persons held as of October 1995 in one joint interrogation center in Kotbalwal, near Jammu. They have been held there without charge after they were first detained for one year under the Jammu and Kashmir Public Safety Act. In some cases, after a year had passed without formal charges being brought, the security forces filed another FIR to hold the detainee on the pretext of a new investigation. Fearing reprisals, judges have been reluctant to challenge the actions of the security forces.

In response to a petition about the mistreatment of detainees in the state, in October 1994, the Jammu and Kashmir High Court ordered that in each district a committee be created of district judges, district magistrates, senior superintendents of police (SSPs) and district medical officers to visit every jail and interrogation center and submit a report to the High Court about the conditions and facilities every two weeks. In May 1995, the state government appealed the order, and a Division Bench made up of two judges of the High Court affirmed the initial ruling, with the amendment that the reports be submitted every two months. However, the security forces refused to provide lists of the detention centers, so that as of January 1996, the court had received only four reports in total from the thirteen districts in the state in the eight months since the court's ruling. 

In December 1995, the district judge in Anantnag complained that the army had not provided him with a list of detention centers, and as a result he was only able to visit the JIC in Anantnag. He reported that at the JIC, many detainees were detained "not pursuant to any law." He noted that fifty-two detainees were housed in "five small cell type rooms... Patently, the accommodation is too short to lodge dozens of persons ... [A]ll ... complained about the lack of medical facilities." 67One year earlier, he had documented torture by the security forces, including forcing detainees to sit for extended periods of time in cold water, electric shock, pulling the legs apart at a wide angle, and suspending detainees upside down . In his December 1994 report, the judge noted that marks of violence on the detainees were "quite visible." 68

There is no question that civil and security officials in Kashmir are aware of the widespread use of torture. Petitions pending before the Jammu and Kashmir High Court provide ample documentation, including medical evidence, of the systematic use of torture.

Torture of S.K.

Human Rights Watch/Asia interviewed S.K., a student, who was arrested by Commanding Officer Joshi of the 81st Battalion of the BSF on January 25, 1995. 

Commanding Officer Joshi accused me of being a Pakistani national. At the BSF base camp I was brought to some other Kashmiris to speak with them so they could check my accent. They kept me in base camp until January 27. On the morning of January 27, my hands and legs were tied to the bed, and I was made to lie back on a steel bed. Uniformed BSG soldiers put a piece of cloth in my mouth. Three of them leaned on my chest and head. Then they pumped water into my nose. I was suffocating and choking. I started bleeding from my mouth. Then the soldiers turned me over and beat me on my back and feet with a long iron rod. They also hit me with a leather belt which they had dipped in water. My back was bleeding. There was blood splattered on the wall in the room. Then they made me lie down face up on bed again and tied my hands and feet to bed. They applied electric shock to my feet, genitals, chest, and tongue for twenty minutes in all. Two wiresone on either side of my bodywere attached to a generator with a crank which one of the soldiers turned. If he turned the crank fast, the shock was severe; if he turned it slowly, less so. 

The following day S.K. was shifted to the BSF Papa II interrogation center in Srinagar where he was interrogated by a BSF officer who had "SP"[superintendent] on his uniform and was called Vikas by his subordinates.

He told me that if I spoke on the telephone with my uncle in Karachi, they would not torture me. I have no uncle in Karachi. He said if I would not admit to being a Pakistani national, they would torture me. He said, "First we will destroy your kidneys, then your lungs, then you will die." I was tied to the bed with my legs spread out at nearly a 180-degree angle. For the next thirty minutes, I was again given electric shock to my legs and genitals, and they took lit matches and burned my beard, and finally they applied shocks to my head until I fell unconscious. At one point during interrogation, Vikas, the BSF officer said, "No one knows you are in our custody; we can just throw you in the river and no one will ever know."

When S.K. woke up, BSF deputy inspector general Rajinder Mani, the BSF chief interrogator, began questioning him about public opinion in Kashmir. On the evening of January 30, a doctor examined S.K. because he had not urinated in thirty-six hours, had swelling all over his body and bloody stools. He was given some medicine, but the swelling continued. On February 2, S.K. was transferred to the Badami Bagh Cantonment army hospital, where he described how he had been tortured. He was given penicillin. However, S.K. was afraid to tell them that he was allergic to penicillin, and the swelling worsened. On the evening of February 2, S.K. overheard a doctor tell a BSF officer from Papa II that his kidneys had failed, that his liver was failing and that he had only six hours left to live. The doctor advised the officer that S.K. "should be thrown on the roadside because it would be a custodial killing if he were to die in the hospital." 

That night, the officer came to me and said they would take me to the Soura Institute. Instead, BSF soldiers took me from Army hospital to the police control room in Srinagar. The BSF officer who took me there told me I should not tell anyone in the press what had happened to me. He also said, "if you want to save your life, go to Soura [hospital] yourself." I was at the police control room for two hours. At 8:00pm the Jammu and Kashmir police took me home. At 1:30am I started vomiting pink fluid. The morning of February 3 I was taken to SMHS hospital, where I stayed for two days. My condition worsened. On the morning of February 4, I was taken to the Soura Institute where I remained for eighteen days. I was given five sessions of dialysis so my kidneys recovered. Since then that terrible experience is always on my mind. When I see a BSF officer, there are no words to express what I feel, because that whole episode -- what happened to me -- comes to my eyes. I am still very weak. I tire easily. I feel eighty years old.

Torture of E. 

E. a government employee from Srinagar, was arrested by the BSF during a crackdown on November 2, 1995.

At 10:00am I went outside with my sister and asked a BSF officer to allow me and my sister to leave so that she could take an exam. She was allowed to go, but I was not. When I returned home, I discovered that the BSF had already searched the house and left. At 11:30 am several dozen BSF soldiers surrounded the house. Six soldiers entered the house and asked for me by name and said they had to conduct a search of the house again because they had specific information that I had connections with some militants. After they searched the house, they ordered me to come with them. They accused me of knowing the hideout locations of militants. I said I did not. Then they said that militants had been coming to my house. I replied that they did come to my house and to other housesthey enter any home at will and there is nothing we can do to stop them. But since January 1995, no militant had entered my house. 

The BSF took E. and one of his neighbors to a nearby BSF camp. Outside one of the buildings, he saw five civilians sitting on the lawn with their pherans pulled around their heads. Some of them were moaning as if in pain. E.was taken to a room where six BSF soldiers were waiting. In the room was a chair, some clothes, and a telephone that is used to send electro-magnetic signals.

I was told to remain standing. They asked me my name and when I told them, several of them cursed me. One asked me,"Tell me where the militants are." I said I don't know. Another said, "They come to your house." I said yes but not since January 1995. Then one of the officers said, "You will not divulge information, so take off your clothes." I hesitated. Then one of the officers struck me on the head several times while another kicked me in the back and said, "Take off your clothes." I took off my clothes. They told me to sit, and I sat on the chair. Then one of them kicked me in the back and said, "You are not an officer here. This chair is for an officer." Then I sat on the floor with only my undershirt on and they told me to sit in front of the chair and put my hands behind me on the chair. Then one of them sat on my shoulders so that I could not move my head or arms. Another one grabbed my legs and forced them apart at nearly 180 degreesas far as they would go. I began crying. 

The soldiers continued to ask E. for the names of militants, and he replied that he did not know any. While the two soldiers were still holding his legs apart, and the third was still sitting on his shoulders, two others stood on his thighs, causing him great pain in the groin. After two minutes of this, one of the soldiers, an officer, asked, "Why do you want to die? Why don't you tell us the names?" E. again denied that he knew any. Two other BSF soldiers came into the room, and they were told to "get the telephone." E. described what happened next:

One soldier then picked up the box and brought it over, and the other pulled two wires out of the box. While the first soldier rotated the crank on the box, the second touched my genitals and thighs with the wires. I cried out. This continued for two or three minutes. Then the officer asked me, "Will you now reveal the names?" I said I don't know anyone. He asked what connections I had with militancy, and I said none except I am a social worker and a Kashmiri. Militants come into our homes as you do; how can we stop them? Then the officer signaled with his hand to the two soldiers holding the telephone apparatus. They again applied the wires to my thighs and genitals for three or four minutes. I was crying at each shock. After that the officer told them to stop. Throughout this the other five officers continued to sit on me and hold my legs apart. The one sitting on my shoulders was pulling my hair. The officer asked if I was married. I said no, and he said, "We will render you impotent if you do not cooperate." 

The soldiers gave E. electric shocks two more times. The fourth time one of the soldiers placed a green chili on one of the wires, which increased the pain. E. fell unconscious, and when he came to, a soldier told him to stand up and helped him walk around the room. When he came outside he saw the soldiers who had interrogated him questioning the neighbor who had been arrested with him. E. was told to sit with the others on the lawn, and the neighbor joined them a short time later. At about 3:00 pm, they were taken to BSF headquarters in Srinagar, one kilometer away. On the morning on November 3, they were taken to the Papa II interrogation center, where they were separated. E. was made to wait on the lawn where more than ten other persons were being held. He was not tortured there, but most of the other detainees were called up one by one, questioned and then beaten with canes and leather belts. E. told Human Rights Watch/Asia:

Two detainees were stripped and forced to climb a wooden pole about twelve feet high. Then a BSF soldier would apply shocks to the man with wires. When the man would slip down, crying, they would beat him with lathis [canes]. I also saw at least two persons in Papa II on November 4 who were not able to walk. I talked to one of them. He identified himself as Badshah Khan, district commander of the JKLF in Kupwara, a border district in northwest Kashmir. He told me his back had been burned after kerosene oil had been poured on it. He identified another person there as Alam Khan. 

In the evening E. was taken back to the BSF camp. On November 6 he was again taken to Papa II where the soldiers told him he should work for the BSF as an informer. E. refused. That evening, when he was brought back to thebase camp, the Jammu and Kashmir police were called, and he was handed over to them. The police took E. and his neighbor home. Since his torture, E. has suffered numbness in his ###### and impotence. 

Torture of Feroz Ahmed Ganai

Feroz Ahmed Ganai, a twenty-eight-year-old contractor, was arrested by the BSF on November 29, 1995. On December 12, he was brought to the Bone and Joint Hospital with a gangrenous broken leg and acute renal failure. According to doctors in the emergency ward, Ganai had been brought in by the commander of the BSF 1st Battalion who claimed that Ganai was a militant and that he had broken his leg trying to escape.69 However, Ganai told the doctors that the BSF had broken his leg on the first day of interrogation. Ganai pleaded with the doctors, "Keep me hereotherwise they will kill me."

A doctor who examined Ganai stated that his leg had been broken about fourteen days earlier. 

It had become gangrenous, with secondary blistering. The leg below the knee was entirely black at the time he was admitted and had to be amputated. The patient had received no medical care for the injury prior to his admission. Both kidneys had failed because of the gangrene and because of the beatings. The patient was in a state of shock; his blood was infected. He had contusions all over his body and face. 

It took the BSF three to four hours to arrange for blood transfusions. But the doctors did not use that blood because upon screening it was found to contain sexually-transmitted diseases. Instead they used the hospital's blood bank and amputated Ganai's left leg from above the knee. On December 13, he was sent to Soura for kidney treatment. 

While Ganai was under treatment at the Bone and Joint Hospital and the Soura Institute, he remained in BSF custody. Since his arrest, no family member or lawyer had been permitted to see him. In response to a petition filed by the family, on December 19, the High Court ordered that the family be permitted visits and that one person nominated by the mother be allowed to sit with him at the hospital. However, the BSF ignored the order. 

When Human Rights Watch/Asia visited the Bone and Joint Hospital in January 1996, we observed six uniformed BSF soldiers accompanying Ganai, who was walking on crutches, out of the hospital. We have been unable to obtain any further knowledge of his whereabouts or condition.

In response to a letter from Human Rights Watch/Asia, the National Human Rights Commission requested information from the BSF in Kashmir about Ganai's case. BSF Commander S. S. Kothiyal responded with a statement claiming that Ganai, who was a "chief of Jamat-ul Mujahideen [a little-known militant group], was arrested on November 29, 1995, and that when he had tried to escape in heavy snow, he broke his leg. Because Ganai "did not observe proper precautions as advised by the doctor and kept on moving his leg" the leg became gangrenous and had to be amputated. The BSF commander also claims that family visits were permitted.

The BSF statement is flatly contradicted by the testimony of doctors who treated Ganai and by the High Court's December 19 ruling on family visits. According to a statement by the NHRC, as of May 1996, Ganai was in custody at a Joint Interrogation Centre in Srinagar.

Torture of S. 

S., a doctor from Tral, a village about forty kilometers south of Srinagar, was arrested by the BSF and tortured. He told Human Rights Watch/Asia that on May 15, 1995, he was arrested by a local BSF commander, "Jamil Khan," whoaccused him of treating a militant who had been injured escaping from Charar-e Sharif.70 He was taken first to a BSF camp in Tral, and then to Lathpora, a BSF camp in Pulwama district. 

I was questioned by Intelligence Officer Sharma for about an hour at midnight and for an hour the next morning. On the morning of May 16, I was taken to the BSF camp at Bunar, still in Pulwama district. The BSF commander questioned me, then he put me into a cell in which there were several basins of water, several ropes, several cricket bats, and some electric equipment. About five BSF soldiers were in the room. They kept me there for one hour. First they made me take off my clothes. Then they forced my head five or six times into a basin of water. Then they covered my head with a plastic bag so that I could not breathe. Then they made me sit down with my knees raised and a rod inserted behind and under them while my hands were tied against my legs. 

S. was then sent to the Papa II interrogation center where he was questioned further. He was released at 3:00 pm.

Torture of Mohammad I.

Mohammad I., a seventeen-year-old student, was arrested by the 163rd Battalion of the BSF in April 1995 from the old town neighborhood of Srinagar. Along with ten others, he was taken to the local interrogation center at Baramulla. He was kept there for three and a half months. He stated:

I was interrogated six days a week, all day, for the entire time. The interrogation room was a small room with no windows, only a door. There were ropes and wooden clubs and wires and a car battery. On the first day, I was separated from the others, my legs were tied and I was beaten with clubs and a wooden stick with nails in it, usually on my legs, but sometimes on my hands. They repeatedly accused him of being a militant. I told them I was not. They also tortured me with the roller. They made me lie with my legs tied while two soldiers rolled the roller over my thighs until I fainted.71 

One day a soldier extinguished cigarettes into Mohammad's right hand to form the letter "F," saying, "You said you wanted freedom." When Human Rights Watch/Asia interviewed Mohammad I. in January 1996, his right hand was still grossly disfigured from the burns. 

Mohammad I. stated that he was given electric shock to his testicles for sixteen days. The shocks were given consecutively, lasting two or three minutes, until he would go into convulsions and faint. After the first three and a half months he was shifted to the Baramulla JIC, where he was not tortured. He was held there until December 20 when the district sessions court in Baramulla ordered him released on bail on the grounds of his medical condition.

Mohammad I. had no medical care while detained. According to a doctor who treated him in Srinagar, he has suffered episodes of manic-depression and needs psychiatric treatment. He has also lost 50 percent mobility in his right hand, passes blood in his urine and has become impotent. 

Sexual Assault/Attempted Rape by Rashtriya Rifles Soldiers in Wurwun

On the night of December 30, soldiers from the Rashtriya Rifles unit of the Indian army entered a house in Wurwun village, district Pulwama, seventeen kilometers south of Srinagar, assaulted several family members and sexually assaulted and attempted to rape three women. Rahti Akhtar, forty-five, testified that she first heard dogs barking at 11:30 pm When she looked outside, she saw about eight soldiers enter the courtyard and encircle the house. A few approached the door and knocked. The soldiers asked her to give them some food, and she said that she would send it to the camp.She recognized some of the soldiers as ones she had seen in the area. Fahmeela Akhtar, fifteen, told Human Rights Watch/Asia that at 11:30pm, she was awakened by her mother telling her that the army had come. Her mother then tried to call out to their neighbors, but the soldiers yelled at her to keep quiet. 

Then Fahmeela's sister, Mubera Akhtar, seventeen, opened the front door of the house. Three army soldiers entered and stood at the door. One said , "Keep quiet, " then bolted the door from the inside. The soldiers were all in uniforms bearing the Rashtriya Rifles insignia, and they were wearing white boots. All three were drunk. Mubera said to one of the soldiers, "If you want to search, please let us go outside, and you search for what you want." The soldier told her to keep quiet and then at gunpoint forced the men into one room and the five women and three children into another and closed the doors. One soldier remained inside the room with the men. Two soldiers were inside the room with the women.

Nazir, twenty-two, and Mohammad, twenty-four, heard their mother's cries and came downstairs. When the soldiers said that they wanted to search, Nazir asked them if the family could wait outside. He told Human Rights Watch/Asia:

The soldiers refused and forced us at gunpoint into one room. One of them hit me with the butt of his gun. They were carrying Kalashnikov rifles. They smelled of alcohol.One soldier stayed outside the room; the door was not bolted. I could hear my sisters' cries from the other room. 

Fahmeela told Human Rights Watch/Asia:

First the soldiers forced Mubera and Amira to the floor and lay on top of them and molested them. One soldier pulled off the top portion of my clothes. I opened the door and tried to run, but the soldier caught me and pulled me back and started to molest me. I was screaming. 

Nazir and Mohammad managed to escape from their room. Nazir told Human Rights Watch/Asia:

I climbed out the window and went to the front door, where I saw three soldiers standing. I could not enter the house, but I managed to get into the corridor. Mohammad came into the corridor at the same time. Then the soldiers grabbed us and took us outside. I got hold of a congri and threw it at one of the soldiers and slipped away. 

The soldiers had bolted the front doors of the two neighbors' houses, but when the residents went to the second floors of their houses and screamed, other residents of the village came and unbolted the doors and the soldiers ran out of the Akhtar house. The crowd pursued them. As they ran, the soldiers fired their guns in the air. The neighbors followed the soldiers to the entrance of the camp. The soldiers had been in the house for about fifteen minutes.

The next day, when the residents noticed that a soldier's cap was scorched, they yelled, "He is one of them!" The soldier claimed that he burned his cap while ironing it. 

On the following day, December 31, residents of the village gathered to protest the incident, and soldiers from the army camp attempted to disperse them. The next day, the commanding army officer came with some of the soldiers to the village along with a local officer. Rahti told Human Rights Watch/Asia:

The commanding officer told us not to tell anyone what had happened. He said that in exchange, the army would not search houses in the area or conduct a crackdown in the area or arrest any young men. He said, "We are already involved in two cases of this kind. Please don't involve us in a third case."

Despite this, the residents lodged a formal complaint with the local police. Afterwards, soldiers from the camp came around warning people not to talk about the incident.

As Human Rights Watch/Asia was conducting these interviews, we observed fifteen to twenty soldiers walking rapidly down the road with three young men from the village in their custody: Nazir Ahmed Dar, twenty-six; Khurshid Ahmed Malik, twenty-six; and Javeed Ahmed Rathore, twenty-four. The three were among the leaders of the gathering in the village the day after the attempted rape. As this report went to print, Human Rights Watch/Asia was unable to determine whether the men were detained for any length of time or released. 

58 U. S. Department of State, Country Reports. The citation used was printed from a file made available electronically; the quote appears on the first page of the India chapter in the report. 

59 On July 5, 1990, the governor of Jammu and Kashmir, Girish Saxena, promulgated the Armed Forces (Jammu and Kashmir) Special Powers Ordinance, 1990, which in September was passed by the Indian parliament as the Armed Forces (Jammu and Kashmir) Special Powers Act. The act authorizes the governor or the central government to declare the whole or any part of the state to be a "disturbed area" if it is found that disturbances in the area are such that "the use of the armed forces in aid of the civil power" is necessary to prevent "terrorist acts" or activities directed towards bringing about secession. In a "disturbed area," the act empowers"any commissioned officer, warrant officer, non-commissioned officer or any other person of equivalent rank in the armed forces" to:

after giving such due warning as he may consider necessary, fire upon or otherwise use force, even to the causing of death, against any person who is acting in contravention of any law or order for the time being in force in the disturbed area prohibiting the assembly of five or more persons or the carrying of weapons or of things capable of being used as weapons or of fire-arms, ammunition or explosive substances....

Also on July 5, 1990, the state government promulgated the Jammu and Kashmir Disturbed Areas Act which similarly grants the security forces enhanced powers to use lethal force in the "disturbed areas" of the six districts of the Kashmir valley and a 20-kilometer belt in the border districts of Poonch and Rajouri in Jammu region. Both acts provide, "No suit, prosecution, or other legal proceedings shall be instituted except with the previous sanction of the State Government against any person in respect of anything done or purporting to be done in exercise of the powers conferred [by the Acts]." The provisions in both of these acts on the use of lethal force directly violate the U.N. Code for Law Enforcement (Article 3).

60 During crackdowns, the security forces routinely order a number of men from the locality to accompany the soldiers searching houses s to act as shields and to ensure that the soldiers will not be accused of molesting women in the houses.

61 The army and other security forces usually hand over dead bodies to the police.

62 See account of the killing of Khurshid Ahmed Bhat below.

63 United Nations Economic and Social Council, Report of the Special Rapporteur, Mr. Nigel S. Rodley, submitted pursuant to Commission on Human Rights resolution 1995/37 (E/CN.4/1996/35, January 9, 1996), p. 18.

64 Some of the interrogation centers which have been used are: Old Airport (BSF), Hari Niwas Interrogation Center (CRPF), Papa I (CRPF), Papa II (BSF), Red 16 (BSF), Badami Bagh (Army Cantonment), Gogoland -- between the old and new airports (CRPF), Bagi Ali Mardan (Nowshera) (BSF), Lal Bazaar Police Station (BSF), Hotel Mamta, Dal Gate (BSF) and Shiraz Cinema, Khenyar (BSF).

65 This provision is routinely disregarded by police throughout India. Under Article 9 of the ICCPR, "Anyone arrested or detained on a criminal charge shall be brought promptly before a judge or other officer authorized by law. . . and shall be entitled to a trial within a reasonable time or released."

66 Sections 330 and 331 prescribe prison terms and fines for officers guilty of torture. Section 176 of the CCrP requires a magisterial inquiry into any death in custody. The Indian Evidence Act and the CCrP also prohibit the use of coerced confessions. 

67 Report of the District Committee Anantnag constituted by the High Court in Public Interest Petition Jalil Andrabi v/s State," December 1995.

68 Office of District and Sessions Judge, Anantnag, Jalil Andrabi vs. State of J&K and others, H.C. petition no. 850 of 1994: Preliminary Report.

69 Having publicized Ganai's arrest as big catch, the BSF apparently did not want him to die in custody.

70 On May 10, 1995, a two-month standoff between the army and militants who had taken refuge in a Sufi shrine in the town of Charar-e Sharief in western Kashmir ended in disaster when the shrine and much of the town burned to the ground. 

71 Soldiers usually stand on the roller, thereby increasing the pressure on the leg muscles.


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## Bull

*Rape by Bangladeshi Military and Paramilitary Forces in Refugee Camps in Bangladesh*

For many Rohingya refugees, the ordeal of violence and intimidation did not end with their arrival in refugee camps in Bangladesh. During visits to three Bangladeshi camps of origin (Gundhum I, Dechua Palong and Balukhali II) and one transit camp (Jumma Para) in April 1993, Human Rights Watch compiled evidence of verbal, physical and sexual abuse of refugees at the hands of Bangladeshi military and paramilitary forces in charge of the camps. Many incidents of human rights violations occurred in the context of sustained efforts by the Bangladeshi government to repatriate Rohingyarefugees to Burma amidst widespread allegations of force and coercion.23 Bangladeshi government officials have suggested that much of the violence in the camps was the product of Rohingya "terrorist" or "fundamentalist" organizations' pressure on the refugees to remain in Bangladesh. There is no question that Rohingya militants were responsible for some incidents of violence, which, on at least two occasions, may have included murder. But there is also ample evidence to suggest that security forces engaged in a systematic pattern of abuse and torture as a means of coercion, and that they have not been held accountable for their actions. Other abuses appeared to have been committed with impunity by camp authorities to satisfy greed or for sexual gratification.24 The following testimonies were taken in April 1993.

J.S.K., a thirty-nine year-old resident of Balukhali II, left Barchara village, Maungdaw, Burma in early 1992.25 She went to Bangladesh as a widow with two children. Her husband, a porter for the Burmese army, was taken about six months before she left. She later heard that he had died. 

On April 20, 1993, between 11:00 a.m. and noon, a Bangladeshi camp official named Iddris entered her shed. The official touched the aluminum roof of her shed and said, "It's not hot, it's cold. If it's not hot, you will not return to Myanmar." Then the official grabbed her breast and said, "You are Urdu but you have a big stomach." J.S.K. used her arm to push the camp official away. He told her he wanted to have intercourse with her. J.S.K. said she had come to Bangladesh to save her honor. The official said if she did not have intercourse with him, he would take action against her. Then he left.

The following morning, April 21, two Bangladeshi policemen came to J.S.K.'s shed. She was standing at the entrance when she saw them approach, and she went inside. One of the policemen came inside after her and shouted at her, "Take your knife and cut down the trellis!" Then, as J.S.K. went to get her knife to comply with that order, the policeman struckher with a stick on the back and then pushed the stick hard against her groin area. J.S.K. got her knife and started cutting down the trellis in front of her shed. The policeman then began to take firewood from J.S.K.'s shed. She protested, saying she was a widow. The policeman then asked if she would marry him, and asked how many children she had. She said two. The policeman said he would arrange a man for her. When interviewed two days later J.S.K. still had difficulty walking from the pain in her groin area.

K.K.B., approximately nineteen, is a resident of Balukhali II. She left Tambezar village, Buthidaung, Burma in 1992 with her brother and father and sister-in-law, and arrived in Balukhali II in February 1993. Previously she was in the Ukhia transit camp for one month.

On April 19, 1993, at about midnight, several Bangladeshi policemen and three local villagers (not refugees) went to her shed and called out for her twenty-year-old brother, M.K. He came out, and two policemen took him to a nearby water pump. Then three other policemen came into the shed and forced K.K.B. into the woods near the camp. K.K.B.'s mother and sister-in-law protested. In the woods, the police grabbed a piece of jewelry from K.K.B.'s pierced nose, as well as a watch she was wearing on her wrist. Her nose was bleeding. The three policemen then each raped her. Two of the policemen had a knife, which they showed to her while telling her that, if she attempted to resist, they would use the knife against her. K.K.B. was also told that if she told anyone about the rapes, they would use their knives against her. After raping her, the police left K.K.B. in the woods. She cried out for help, and her brother came for her.

L.N.Z., twenty-eight (mother); S.K., fifteen (daughter); S.K.II, eighteen (neighbor), all originated in Khar Khali village, Maungdaw, Burma, and sought refuge in Balukhali II camp. On April 20, 1993, the Bangladeshi Camp-in-Charge (CIC)26 accompanied by several camp officials and police, went to L.N.Z.'s shed, and asked to have the family sewing machine. At the time, L.N.Z., S.K. and S.K.II were inside the house. L.N.Z. refused to give them the sewing machine. The officials shouted at her, calling her names, and hit her once. They asked for her ration book. L.N.Z. said she would not give it to them. One official called the CIC over. The CIC then grabbed S.K.'s wrist. Another camp official said that the family ration book was hidden in S.K.'s clothing. The CIC and the other official put their hands inside S.K.'s clothing and touched her all over her body, including her vagina.

The CIC and the other official then tied L.N.Z.'s arms in front of her, and did the same to S.K. S.K. asked S.K.II for another cloth to cover her head. When S.K.II came to give her some cloth, one policeman fondled S.K.II's breasts and struck S.K. on the back of the neck with a stick. The police then brought L.N.Z. and S.K. to a nearby latrine at the bottom of the hill on which their shed is perched. L.N.Z. and S.K. were told that, if they did not give up the sewing machine, they would be tortured. L.N.Z. then said that the sewing machine was in the house of a local villager (not a refugee) who lived next door to L.N.Z. and S.K. The police then went to the house of the local villager and repeatedly struck the thatched roof with sticks, damaging the roof. The police took the sewing machine from the villager's house.

Z.H., twenty, was a resident of Balukhali II camp in April 1993. She had arrived in Bangladesh in 1992, with two children and her mother and brother from a village in Buthidaung, Burma. Just before crossing the border to Bangladesh, she had previously been arrested in Burma and spent eighteen days in jail. Her husband had been jailed in 1991 in Burma for murdering a village leader who had confiscated the family's property.

In mid-March 1993 a Bangladeshi police inspector went to her shed in the Balukhali II camp and told Z.K. that he wanted to have sex with her. The inspector told her that if she did not have sex with him, he would jail her or deny her food rations. Some time thereafter, Z. was called down to the CIC office by the same police inspector, who repeated his threats. When several other refugees came to the office, Z.K. was let go. The inspector threatened to shoot Z.K. if she repeated his threats.

23 In a letter to Bangladeshi Prime Minister Zia on December 22, 1992, U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees Sadako Ogata wrote that there was "strong evidence to suspect refugees are being coerced [by Bangladeshi authorities] to return, in some cases, having been physically assaulted, their ration cards confiscated, with several hundred persons detained in jail."

24 For further information on treatment of Rohingya refugees, see Asia Watch, "Bangladesh: Abuse of Burmese Refugees . . ."

25 The following names are withheld by Human Rights Watch unless otherwise indicated.

26 The Camp-in-Charge is the highest Bangladeshi authority in each refugee camp.




Human Rights Watch 
350 Fifth Ave 
34th Floor 
New York, N.Y. 10118

http://www.hrw.org/about/projects/womrep/General-71.htm


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## dabong1

Bull said:


> I didnt know they were allowed to!!!
> 
> And pls carry on posting, somebody might be reading it.



Hahaha.... i think i have proved point beyond any doubt.


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## dabong1

Bull said:


> *Rape by Bangladeshi Military and Paramilitary Forces in Refugee Camps in Bangladesh*
> 
> 
> 
> Human Rights Watch
> 350 Fifth Ave
> 34th Floor
> New York, N.Y. 10118
> 
> http://www.hrw.org/about/projects/womrep/General-71.htm



Try checkin the bit about india before you start on b/desh.


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## Bull

dabong1 said:


> Try checkin the bit about india before you start on b/desh.



I dont read, i cant read, i can only copy & paste...Im a bot...lol.


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## HK-47

where there is warfare and conflicts involved things like killing of innocent civilians,rapes,etc _will _ happen,no matter who are involved in conflict.
I know this is a movie quote but it's also true:war brings out the beast in every man.


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## akzaman

*Genesis Of The Kashmir Dispute*

By Syed Ali Safvi

The last fifteen years have proved so painful for the poor Kashmiris. They are getting crushed between the two estranged neighbours of Asia; India and Pakistan. There is no escaping the fact that it is the common masses that have to undergo stiff trials and tribulations every now and then. The queries that frequently strike the mind of every common Kashmiri in general and particularly the wretched new generation of the valley, which has never witnessed peace in their native land, are that why are we being treated as slaves? Why don't we have the right to speak for ourselves? And many more.

Much has been written over Kashmir, particularly in the last fifteen years. Kashmir has been an ideal subject matter for the writers to sell out their books. But the question, however, is how far the information provided by these authors, often biased, is accurate and relevant. To understand the intricacy of Kashmir, we have to re-operate the chest of history in order to scrutinize the facts, but being impartial. There are, albeit, many factors responsible for the dispute over Kashmir, but some are indeed very substantial and merit attention. Let's explore the key factors precisely responsible for the dispute over the vale of Kashmir.

The debate concerning the future of Kashmir gained ground particularly from the days of transfer of power and the partition of British India way back in 1947. The last Viceroy of British India, Sir Lord Mountbatten's rather friendly relationship with Jawaharlal Nehru and the latter's sympathetic attitude towards Sheikh Abdullah and strong affection to what after all was his ancestral home, Kashmir was the root of all crisis, which remains very much alive nearly sixty years on. Around this emotional 'triangle' revolves the history of the Kashmir dispute. Nevertheless, many other famous personalities of the past too played their part, but these three men ultimately were to decide the future of Kashmir and its people. The brutal and anti-Muslim regime of the Dogras, particularly the reign of Maharaja Hari Singh, who was instrumental to slay thousands of Muslims in the Poonch uprising facilitated by the Armed bands of extremist militant Hindu party in India, the Rashtrya Sevak Sang (RSS), was responsible for the splitting up of public opinion with regard to the choosing of country and the exodus of over one lakh Muslims from Poonch. In 1946, majority of the Kashmir people wanted an independent state. The two major political parties at that time, National Conference headed by Sheikh M. Abdullah and the Muslim Conference, however, had kept other options open in case the dream of independent Kashmir was not realized. Sheikh's National Conference had opened its doors for Indian accession (Sheikh Abdullah's decision might have been triggered out of his indifference towards M.A. Jinnah), while Muslim Conference, owing to its links to the Muslim League in British India, was ready with accession to Pakistan. One of the prominent writers of the contemporary world, Alastair Lamb writes, " It is to be regretted that during the crucial weeks prior to the Transfer of Power Sheikh Abdullah remained in prison and was unable either to keep in touch with the march of events or to make his own views widely clear ".

To Sheikh Abdullah, the idea of independence to Kashmir appealed above all. Sheikh was virtually 'worshipped' by the people of the valley. Although, the main objectives behind Sheikh Abdullah's "Quit Kashmir" movement was the removal of Dogra rule and its replacement by an independent Kashmir, but later on he had developed strong affection towards India, or to be more specific, towards Jawaharlal Nehru, who was after all responsible for his release from the Maharaja's prison. When Jawaharlal Nehru realized the special position of Sheikh Abdullah in the state, he accordingly used Sheikh's influence as a tool in his policy of Jammu and Kashmir. This was indeed the reason why Nehru urged the release of Sheikh Abdullah and the latter's radical change from his policy of Independent Kashmir. Nevertheless, If Sheikh Abdullah would not have been in prison at the time of the Transfer of Power, even then there would not have been any change in his stand over the accession to India, since he strongly disliked M.A. Jinnah and his Muslim League. Sheikh Abdullah, nonetheless, proved
to be a profitable investment for India in the long run.

Anxious Indian leaders, in Delhi, used all the political tactics to make Kashmir a part of India. The policy of India has always been to dislodge the anti-India elements in the valley. Pandit Ram Kak, Maharaja's Prime Minister, was expelled in 1947 owing to his policy of non-Indian future for the state. Even the Indian loyalist Sheikh Abdullah was not spared. Sheikh was put behind bars for his constant demand for the 'promised' autonomy. Augmentation of Pro-Indian elements in the administration supplemented the interest of Maharaja Hari Singh to accede to India. However, before he could have realized his ambition, Indian leaders were quick enough to grab the opportunity of 'invading' Kashmir.

Jawaharlal Nehru played a rather controversial part in the Pathan invasion in 1947. The purpose of sending the forces to Kashmir, as Nehru himself declared in the telegram to British Prime Minister, Attlee on 25 th October, was only to encounter the advancing Pathan forces and not something designed to influence the state to accede to India. Although Nehru and Mountbatten had declared that the decision of accession must be decided according to the wishes of the people, but pragmatically that was not to be the case. There is no escaping the fact that the decision of accession to India was taken against the will and wishes of the majority of the population of the state.

There is a big controversy with regard to the 'Instrument of Accession' and it has not been clearly stated by several biased Indian narrators. The conspiracy of V.P. Menon, who drafted the letter offering Accession (which was almost certainly drafted in New Delhi without the prior consent of the Maharaja) as well as the letter of Acceptance and who along with M.C. Mahajan actually gave birth to the Accession Crisis, is hardly paid attention to. Menon and Mahajan were supposed to fly to Jammu in the afternoon of 26th October 1947 and bring the Instrument of Accession duly signed by the Maharaja to enable Indian troops to be flown to Kashmir. However, neither Menon nor Mahajan had left Delhi for Jammu on 26th October. In the words of Alastair Lamb " Menon certainly contributed to the widely held conviction that the Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir had indeed signed up with India some hours before the first Indian regular soldiers set foot on Kashmir soil." (Incomplete Partition). It may be noted here that the then Governor-General of India, Lord Mountbatten had made Accession a prior condition to any sort of Indian intervention in the state. However, the fact is that, Indian
troops were flown to Srinagar well before the state of Jammu and Kashmir formally acceded to the Indian union. It now becomes apparent that India was determined to manipulate the state of Jammu & Kashmir even at the cost of the wishes of its natives. Many Indian narrators have not considered this act of extreme treachery by some egocentric Indian bureaucrats and
their mentors. Nonetheless, no evidence is to be found whatsoever in the history about Maharaja's signing of the 'alleged' instrument of Accession (at least prior to 27th of October 1947, which is claimed).

Indians have always been effective at spreading rumors and cashing on it (at least in case of Kashmir). Indians, very skilfully, held Pakistan responsible for whatever was happening in
Kashmir. Indian leaders and media have perfectly attested the truth in Joseph Goebel's sayings, " frequently repeated lies have the potential of being acknowledged as the truth". Even the Governor-General, Mountbatten appeared to have accepted without question every rumour hostile to Pakistan. On the contrary, it was India which was intervening in the internal affairs of what was to all intents an independent state "in the throes of civil conflict". However, the British Government (Prime Minister Attlee's letter to Jawaharlal Nehru on 26 October) and Commonwealth Relations Office had recommended India to restrain from accepting the document of Accession and discuss the question of Kashmir's future with the Maharaja and the Prime Minister of Pakistan, nevertheless the Indians, backed by Mountbatten, who was deeply committed to a policy of Indian military activity coupled with accession, made negotiations quiet impossible. It is an admitted fact that if India had established contacts with Pakistan when the former recognized the latter's role in aiding the Azad forces, the dispute over the future of Kashmir would not have stretched so far. But, it was a conspiracy on part of Indian leaders for not consulting the Pakistan Govt. prior to dispatching forces to Kashmir. This proves the fact that the Indian side was committed to legitimize its stand on the state by hook or crook and at the same time it didn't want Pakistan to be a party to it.

All the efforts made by the United Nation Security Council (UNSC) in holding the plebiscite in the state of Jammu and Kashmir proved futile. Although, India had repeatedly pledged that the question of Kashmir's accession would be decided in accordance with the wishes of the Kashmiris, but the pledge is still to be honoured. India has denied the right of self determination to the people of Kashmir. The question is what it is in the resolution that irks the Indian side. Omkar Razdan writes " The will of the people of Kashmir has been held supreme in these resolutions. If this "will" is with the state of India, as the Indian media would want Indians to believe, then why do we fritter our energy in fighting a bloody proxy war in the state. " (The Trauma of Kashmir).

However, with the passage of time, India has transformed Kashmir into a military camp and all the promises made to the Kashmiri people by Nehru and Mountbatten have been forgone by the successive regimes of Indian politics. More has been said than done for Kashmiris. Kashmir has, particularly in the last more than a decade, witnessed scores of soul-deadening incidents. All methods of human rights violation have been adopted by the Indian troops and the militant outfits. The brutality has put to shame the likes of Hitler and Chengez Khan. Ruthless interrogations, illegal use of forces, disappearance, rape, and custodial killings have become regular phenomena in Kashmir. Meanwhile, death of thousands of young men is upsetting the sex ratio, economy is in depression, education has gone down, child labour has become rampant, and many other social evils have cropped up. The paradise of Kashmir has not just been lost but ruined and peace in the vale has been broken into 'pieces'. Ironically, the electronic media of a democratic Indian state portrays the situation in Kashmir as 'normal'.

Common Kashmiris die a thousand deaths each day and nobody pays heed to their miseries.
On the contrary they are treated merely as slaves who have been deprived of their fundamental rights. The concern of the army and militant outfits is to keep Kashmir; the means are not their concern. The militants lob grenades at security personals and in the bargain the blood of innocent Kashmiris is spilled over the green valley. Kashmiris are, as Arundhati Roy once said, " sandwiched between security forces and militants." It is a high time for all the Kashmiris, particularly the new generation to wake up and think about the prospect of Kashmir and Kashmiris. What Kashmir requires today is a leader who has no attachment with money nor the lure for power; a leader, who would be committed to bring peace to the grief-stricken valley. Unfortunately, at present there is hardly any leader worth the name and that has added to the miseries of Kashmiris.

There have been innumerable direct bilateral negotiations between India and Pakistan, on or including Kashmir in the last five decades, but unfortunately all these discussions have not yielded any result, and rightly so. Robert G. Wirsing has rightly stated that " India and Pakistan are far from free to settle the Kashmir dispute in their own terms." (Kashmir in the Shadow of War).

Despite the fact that Kashmir was never a property of either India or Pakistan and there can be no question of deciding the fate of Kashmiris without their consent, Kashmiris were, ironically, ignored in the dialogue between New Delhi and Islamabad to resolve the Kashmir dispute. However, it is a good gesture that both the countries have realized the importance of Kashmiris representation in the dialogue process.

The problem of Kashmir would only be resolved through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite. But holding of Plebiscite with only two options (union with either Indian or Pakistan) is not now acceptable to the bulk of Kashmiris. The ideal solution for Kashmiris, as Prof. Pervaiz Iqbal Cheema of Pakistan asserted, would be an "independent status for the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir". Steps like starting a bus service from Srinagar to Muzaffarabad, laying down railway lines, or giving hefty economic packages won't solve the problem of Kashmir. Both India and Pakistan should make U.N Resolutions the basis of solving the problem. U.N. resolution, after all, was responsible to ultimately solve the international disputes in South Africa and Angola. India and Pakistan must keep the interest of Kashmiri people paramount and take serious and resolute initiative in order to make things better for the common mass of Kashmir and settle the Kashmir issue once and for all.

(The author can be reached at syedalisafvi@gmail.com)
http://www.countercurrents.org/kashmir-safvi210207.htm


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## Adux

Why do we have so many Pakistanis dressed up as Indians, real sad....lol

Nero, if indeed you are an Indian, pack your bags, leave to some ummah country. Thank YOu


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## A.Rahman

Adux said:


> leave to some ummah country. Thank YOu



Which country is that ?


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## intruder

Adux said:


> Why do we have so many Pakistanis dressed up as Indians, real sad....lol
> 
> Nero, if indeed you are an Indian, pack your bags, leave to some ummah country. Thank YOu



Adu, they are afraid ..... pissed about there real identiy .....


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## Awesome

Rape is an official tactic to break the Kashmiri morale for separation. Pretty much all occupation forces throughout history have employed Rape as an official tactic to do so. Cases are only registered for PR purposes to keep the center's image clean.

They are all guilty.


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## Awesome

intruder said:


> Adu, they are afraid ..... pissed about there real identiy .....



You won't survive for long by mocking the Pakistani identity.


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## Bull

Asim Aquil said:


> Rape is an official tactic to break the Kashmiri morale for separation. *Pretty much all occupation forces throughout history have employed Rape as an official tactic to do so*. Cases are only registered for PR purposes to keep the center's image clean.
> 
> They are all guilty.



Is that why PA soldiers raped the bangla's back in 71?

Official tactic. Absolute rubbish. There are suicides being committed by Jawans, there is a serious need for a HR drive in the IA and Para Mili forces.


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## Awesome

Bull said:


> Is that why PA soldiers raped the bangla's back in 71?
> 
> Official tactic. Absolute rubbish. There are suicides being committed by Jawans, there is a serious need for a HR drive in the IA and Para Mili forces.


I did say all.

But the situation as we have it today, India has an occupation force whose raping statistics speak for themselves.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Asim Aquil said:


> Rape is an official tactic to break the Kashmiri morale for separation. Pretty much all occupation forces throughout history have employed Rape as an official tactic to do so. Cases are only registered for PR purposes to keep the center's image clean.
> 
> They are all guilty.



 

Got what I mean, Asim?


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## Awesome

Salim said:


> Got what I mean, Asim?


I _doubt _it .

Welcome back!


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## Samudra

Asim Aquil said:


> I did say all.
> 
> But the situation as we have it today, India has an occupation force whose raping statistics speak for themselves.



You're right about the Punjabi Pakistani Army raping Bengalis. But you're lying about the Indian army and a statistics that does not exist. Hell, the state is open to tourists even from abroad.


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## akzaman

*Trauma Of Daily Violence In Jammu And Kashmir Telling Upon Mental Health*

Ravaged by conflict, traumatized by lack of accountability and strangled by social taboos, people in Jammu and Kashmiri have been both witness to and victims of violence which has had a significant effect on their mental health. While a sustainable political solution to "K" problem seems far away, psychological wounds inflicted by violence and impunity on the Kashmiri society continue to increase and go well beyond socio-economic problems. 

Studies and survey's conducted by various reputed organizations and institutes have confirmed that Psychological problems have been increasing in Jammu and Kashmir. According to one survey conducted by state mental health society (SMHS), around 80,000 people from Kashmir valley visited various mental health professionals during the year 2005-2006 and nearly three-fourths were diagnosed with serious psychological disorders. This represents an over twenty percent increase from 2005 and reveals that the emotional and mental damage caused by the conflict continues to surge. 

A survey report on Jammu and Kashmir by a Holland-based humanitarian group Mdecins Sans Frontires (MSF) maintains that a third of its respondents suffered from psychological distress. Nearly one in 10 people reported having lost one or more members of their immediate family due to violence in the period from 1989-2005. The survey reported that almost half ( 48.1%) of the respondents said they felt only occasionally or never safe. 

It also indicated that violence or the threat of physical violence seems to have had a significant effect on the mental health of people. It revealed that respondents suffered from high levels of anxiety such as nervousness, tension and extensive worrying. 

The survey stated that a substantial number of people interviewed by them admitted to having thoughts about ending their life (33.9%). "Such a high percentage of suicidal tendencies within a population holding strong religious beliefs that condemn the act of suicide, is a worrying indicator of the level of despair and hopelessness in which people in Jammu and Kashmir are living," stressed a neurologist. 

The survey also indicated high rates of physical complaints including headaches (23.5%), body pains such as joint and back complaints (20.5%), and abdominal complaints (16.9%). It reported that poor health placed a substantial burden on the area's health facilities, with most people saying they visit health clinics frequently ( 63.9%); some even four times or more. Medicine consumption was also high, with over one-third taking six or more medicines in the previous 30 days (37.9%). 

According to MSF, Interviewees reported witnessing (73.3%) and directly experiencing themselves ( 44.1%), physical and psychological mistreatment, such as humiliation and threats thus causing extensive damage to their psychological health. A shocking finding of the survey was that torture appeared to be widespread suggesting that a strategy of intimidation and fear has been employed by army and paramilitary forces. 

Maintaining that sexual violence has impinged upon the mental health of people in Jammu and Kashmir more than physical violence, the survey reported that sexual violence has been used as a common strategy to intimidate people in conflict. 11.6% of interviewees said they had been victims of sexual violence since 1989. Almost two-thirds of the people interviewed (63.9%) by MSF had heard over a similar period about cases of rape, while one in seven had witnessed rape. 


The worst hit have been the children among whom the major effect of the violence reported in this survey has been fear (24.6%). School-related problems also scored highly, such as being unable to attend school ( 15.5%) and having problems studying ( 16.3%) due to the lack of professional teachers and study material. 

Respondents told the surveyors that people deal with stress by isolating themselves (22.3%) or becoming aggressive (16%). They further informed them that talking confidentially to someone they trust is helpful when confronted with tension ( 89.4%). It is essentially this survey which brought out the real picture of the mental health of people in Jammu and Kashmir. The findings of the survey revealed a bleak picture of the mental health of people in the conflict-afflicted region and raised important questions about the government's failure to adequately provide mental health services to the population. 

Overburdened, understaffed, and in-demand, this is the state of mental health care in Kashmir. The Psychiatric Diseases Hospital at Kaathi Darwaza is the only refuge for mental patients in Kashmir, and its doctors, facilities, and supplies have long been grossly inadequate. According to one report, records from the out-patient department (OPD) of Srinagar's Hospital for Psychiatric Diseases show that more than 300 people arrive every day. 

It stated that most self-admitting patients are women aged between 16 to 25. Because of the social stigma associated with psychological disorders, doctors believe that no more than 10 percent of those in need of psychiatric care are actually approaching the hospital. One outcome of this under-treated trauma is an increase in teenage girl suicides. 

According to another report published in a local daily, 19-year-old Jameela witnessed her aunt being killed while working in the kitchen and later also witnessed a shootout in her locality. With no history of psychiatric problems, she began suffering from post-traumatic stress disorders: recurrent, intrusive and distressing recollection of the events, marked irritability, outbursts of anger, difficulty in concentrating, sleeplessness, sadness, and disinterest in all social, domestic and college activities. Following a minor altercation with her sister, she consumed pesticide and ended her life. 

A statistical report of the state health and medical education department revealed that on an average, two to three cases of attempted suicide are admitted into Srinagar's two main hospitals on regular basis. A large number of people from the villages die on the way or in local health centers. 

Psychologists maintain that people living at a place ravaged by conflict are often faced with a number of Psychological problems. They say that the physical environment in which people live and survive has a direct bearing on their mental health. "Stress caused by feelings of insecurity and dependency can deplete physical and psychological buoyancy leading to varied mental problems, this has happened in most of the cases in Jammu and Kashmir," said Dr.Adarsh Bhargav He maintained that crackdowns, frisking by security forces and round-up raids in villages have a deep impact on the mental health of the people. "When you find yourself in the middle of a situation where your movement gets restricted, where you have to follow orders, where you are abused and humiliated, where your imaginations fail to take a flight and where your identity always remains a suspect, you are bound to suffer from Psychological disorders," added the young practicing Psychologist. 

A young neurologist Dr.Nida who is presently doing her masters from a reputed institute in Delhi maintained that since 1990, the number of mental patients in Kashmir Valley have increased from 1500 to nearly 1 Lakh in 2006. 

"Around 60 to 70 percent of these patients are suffering from depression, bipolar disorder or schizophrenia; all of these disorders are of serious nature, apart from these problems, there are many other psychological complications associated with violence which can be easily noticed among the people in Kashmir valley," added Dr.Nida. 

She maintained that situation has come to a stage where people feel so unsafe that they prefer staying in hospital than going home. Increasing psychological and neurological problems among the people in Jammu and Kashmir begs further discussion of the continuing situation of impunity in Kashmir for those who perpetrate acts of terror and violence without any fear of being caught and held accountable. Until this atmosphere of impunity is not addressed, psychological problems are bound to increase. 


Writer is a journalist, presently working with jammu and kashmir's largest circulated daily and highly reputed daily "The Kashmir Times". He can be contacted at syedjunaidhashmi@gmail.com

http://www.countercurrents.org/hashmi200607.htm


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## akzaman

*Simmer Discontent*

By Syed Ali Safvi

The sun of July 13, 1931 confirmed the truth in Margaret Mead's saying, "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." 

On that fateful day, thousands of Kashmiris had gheroed the Srinagar central jail demanding an open trial of a youth, Abdul Qadeer, who was tried for 'sedition'. His crime: pointing his finger to the Maharaja's Palace in protest against the desecration of the Holy Quran at the hands of Dogra troops in Jammu. 

The Dogra governer, Ray Zada Chand, in order to disperse the crowd, ordered his soldiers to open fire. The scene that followed was no less horrific and horrendous than the Jallianwala Bagh Massacre. In a matter of few seconds, twenty one protestors were left lying in a pool of blood and many more were seriously injured. 

Kashmiris have, throughout their history, been at the receiving end only. The history of Kashmir is replete with incidents of inhumane and tyrannical oppression of the dejected Kashmiris by the rulers. Be it the Mughals, the Afghans, the Sikhs or the Dogras, a common Kashmiri has never found solace. 

These rulers treated them merely as scapegoats and any voice of dissent would be severely strangulated. During the reign of King Unmattawati (939-944 AD), the king ripped the abdomen of a pregnant woman to see the foetus. One of the Afghan rulers, Azad Khan, raped, plundered and killed the innocent Kashmiris like a maniac.He slit the stomach of a doctor when the latter failed to cure his eye ailment. 

When Zulchu (Zulfi Khan or Zulaji) invaded Kashmir, his soldiers resorted to indiscriminate killings, bloodbath, plundering beyond all limits. They carried out wholesale massacre of Kashmiris, killing everyone who fell into their hands. One of the Dogra rulers, Ranjit Singh, never visited Kashmir, but solicited women and taxes from the valley. 

The Dogra rule, arguably, was the darkest period in the history of Kashmir. Such was the degree of oppression that Kashmiris were skinned alive for speaking against the Maharaja. The incident that took place outside the Srinagar Central jail on the fateful day of July 13, 1931 was nothing new for Kashmiris but it provided the much-needed impetus to the anti Dogra sentiments in the valley. 

However, most of the freedom fighters who fought for the complete freedom of Kashmir from the tyrannical, oppressive and autocratic rule of the Dogras have remained by and large unsung in the pages of history. Courtesy: The Successful regimes of Kashmir Politics and the so called political interest of their spin doctors. 

It's a travesty of justice that we do not have a single building, road, hospital or any other public infrastructure named after any of our freedom fighters who laid down their lives only that we could breathe in the ambience of freedom, peace and tranquility; where we would not be forced to pay tax to live on our own soil. Instead of commemorating them, we have roads, colleges, public parks named after the Dogra rulers who had been cruel and savage.In their rule, Kashmiris simmered in the smoldering fire. in return, that is what our state has given to the martyrs! It is, nonetheless,'never less than mortifying and humiliating both the denizens of the state and for the state itself. 

In 1983, the then chief minister Farooq Abdullah inaugurated a bridge at Rambagh named after one of the freedom fighters, Mohammad Sultan Khan alias Sula Galdar. Unfortunately, during the heydays of the armed struggle, a rocket hit the stone plaque on the bridge and completely destroyed it. The administration did not deem it necessary to replace the stone plaque.Instead, the hole, caused by the blast, was plugged in with cement.

If every nation would 'honour' its freedom fighters the way our governments do, sincerely,the world would no longer produce the likes of Mandelas, Gandhis, Khomeinis, etc. Every year on July 13, we remember our martyrs, but are we really doing justice to their memory and role? Do we respect and honour their neverlasting sentiments and resilience towards saving our motherland. 

(The writer can be reached at syedalisafvi@gmail.com)

http://countercurrents.org/safvi300707.htm


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## akzaman

*'Instructor in the art of killing' *

A young soldier recently stationed in Indian-administered Kashmir describes the feelings of soldiers braving the cold at high altitudes as they wait to intercept militants. We have to go out, again. It is not easy going out night after night but I cannot really help feeling the debilitating effects of the cold. 

Our group comprises two different sets of people. One has the newcomers in it, the load carriers, who are being introduced to this kind of terrain and this way of operation. They are young boys from 18 to 22 years old. Then there are the old timers, men who have served their time here and are familiar with the surroundings and must be good since they have survived this long. 

Tedious 
I am a newcomer, not to this kind of operation but to this kind of terrain. 

I slowly become accustomed to the cold, devise methods to ward off sleep, and have also begun to decipher shadows in the night, separating the real from the imaginary. When we do kill somebody, we rejoice and dance and hug each other 

It is quite tedious going out in the cold waiting, hoping for him to come out of nowhere... So that we can kill him. Every experienced soldier has a young one with him as his buddy. I also have a young boy with me. He is just a few months older than 19, comes from a family of farmers somewhere in central India, and joined the army to provide them with a livelihood. 

I teach him the tricks of the trade: what to carry, what not to carry, how to wear his shoes so that they do not cut him, how many layers of clothing to wear so that we can remain warm and still not hindered when we want to move fast, what position to wait in so that we do not tire very fast, how to aim and fire so that the enemy may not escape... And many other seemingly trivial details. 

But when you are in a life and death situation, attention to detail can save lives - it could be the difference between this young man retuning home to see his family again or him returning home dead. 

I had always thought that I would enjoy teaching - but that was when I was thinking about teaching English literature. Here I am, teaching a young boy barely out of his teens how to kill - without fear, without pity, without remorse - just the way I was taught. 

'Art of killing' 
After sometime the higher cause becomes obscure. After sometime you just start accepting the fact that every night we go out like primitive hunters hoping for a kill - it becomes a very natural thing to do, part of the routine. 

When we do kill somebody, we rejoice and dance and hug each other and pose with the dead body as if it was some trophy to be shown off. But we stop being human. Soldiers have to be ever-watchful for militant attacks As I sit there in the night, waiting... I think to myself 'how did it all come to this?' 

From a young boy who wanted to teach English literature, how did I end up becoming an instructor in the art of killing? 

Since when did death stop affecting me, when did I become so numb? I do not know... No answer comes. 
What I do know is that somewhere along the line I made decisions in life which have resulted me being here... In the dark, in the jungle, in the cold... Waiting... 

The soldier wished to remain anonymous. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6660951.stm


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## Tiki Tam Tam

A good story.

No wonder the BBC was called *B*luff *B*luster * C*orporation!

This is hardly the sentiment that is displayed. It is the usual journalistic ploy of writing fiction that appeals and stating that the source wants to be anonymous!

There is no doubt, it is a sad task. Who likes killing anyone? Not me I assure you. But when it is someone else killing me, then maybe I can overcome the distaste and take action necessary even if it is day in and day out.

It is cold. It is lonely. But then the Army life is no bed of roses! Ask those SSG chaps at Lal Majzid. Did they like doing what they did? NO. But then, if they did not do it, their country's stability would go for a six. And the enemies of Pakistan would rip its innards!

A tough decision. But a decision where the love of one's country (and thus all citizens of the country) is pitted with the basic instinct being a human being with love for all including traitors and the enemy!

The Lal Mazjid chaps were traitors to the stability of Pakistan!


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## akzaman

*INDIAN GENOCIDE ON MUSLIMS OF KASHMIR*

http://server1.aswatalislam.net/Audios/Vid...ole Truth.ram


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## akzaman

*Kashmiris want Peace, Azadi*

by Amit Chakraborty

Almost all Srinagar residents want peace, azadi, and an end to the authoritarianism of Indian forces. AMIT CHAKRABORTY, who observed the recently-concluded elections in J&K, explains why the polls were a farce, and how the will of the people is being muzzled 

The results of the Jammu & Kashmir assembly election were declared almost a fortnight back. But as yet the state government could not come into being. The major parties like NC, PDP and Congress, none having the absolute majority in terms of seats won under their banner; claim that they have the mandate from the people of Jammu & Kashmir to form the government. Yet despite their claims, they all know in their hearts that it is far from the reality. 

During the third and fourth phase of election, I had the opportunity to be a watcher in the election arena as a member of the team of 'independent election observers' formed by the J&K Coalition for Civil Society. During my stay in Srinagar, for more than a week, I conducted a survey on the basis of random sampling spread over all the 10 constituencies of Srinagar district, commensurate with the demographic composition of the population of Srinagar district as per the 2001 Census. The result that I gathered diminishes the claims of all the frontrunners, staking their claims to form the government, to naught. In Srinagar the NC enjoys the support of only 2.54 per cent of the voting population (i.e., people over the age of 18). The figures for Congress and PDP are respectively 1.70 and 0.85 per cent only. 

How can that be when the establishment claimed that average polling in the J&K election was over 42 per cent and these major political parties mostly shared the votes polled? Well, in Srinagar district, 78 per cent of the population is urban. Because of media and election observers' activism, the urban voters could not be herded to polling booths to cast their votes. 

But as has been reported about rural voters of Srinagar, and as we have witnessed ourselves in rural areas of Anantnag and Banihal Tehsil of Doda district, the voters were really made to vote by the Rashtriya Rifle forces. They used to enter the village on the pretext that they would provide security to the voting people against the alleged threat of the militants opposing the election. But it was the precise task of the RR personnel to herd people to the polling booth under the threat that if they could not show the indelible ink mark on their fingers they would have to face the music. We came across many people more interested in getting the mark on their fingers than in casting in votes. Thus the high polling percentage was reached. However, for Srinagar district, especially in the city area, even official records showed that the voter turnout was far below the general average.

Why were the people so averse to the election process? Of those interviewed for our survey, 89.84 per cent said the Assembly election was not the true process of choosing the representatives of peoples of Jammu & Kashmir. Only 6.78 per cent looked at the election in a positive manner and 5.08 per cent had any expectations from the electoral process. 

Are not the people of Srinagar aware of the problems of Jammu & Kashmir? With the bruised heart and scar all over their body resulting from army and militants' excesses how can they close their eyes away from the day-to-day realities! To conduct the survey I went from place to place to meet the people in all the 10 constituencies of the district of Srinagar, including high-risk security zone areas. Nowhere was my identity challenged as I am from "India". But that of Gawhar Amin, a student from Kashmir University accompanying me through the survey exercise, was challenged on almost all occasions and frisked. Not was not I but he who was treated as an alien in his own land. 

The Indian army picked up Shakeela Banno's husband some three years back. He is one in the list of disappeared persons running into thousands. She is hoping against hope for his return. Her husband was an auto driver. Before his disappearance, the couple led four years of conjugal life and had four children. Shakeela manages to maintain the family by fixing wrappers on the chocolates of the local vendors and labouring for household work door to door. When we asked her about the root cause of the problems of J&K she had hardly opined that it was the 'authoritarian, undemocratic and oppressive role of the Indian Government' in Jammu & Kashmir, before bursting into tears, murmuring, "all these things now bear no meaning in my life". 

However, 25.42 per cent of the people interviewed also think in Shakeela's way. Of the rest, 22.03 per cent feel that 'it is the dispute between India and Pakistan over the possession of J&K'.' Another 26.27 per cent feel that the root cause is the 'contradiction between aspirations of the peoples of J&K and the possessive attitude of Indian government' while 17.80 per cent think that 'poverty, unemployment and illiteracy are the root cause of J&K problem'. 

It is interesting to note that not even all the Hindus (Kashmiri Pandits) interviewed (4.24 per cent) consider 'subversive activities being perpetrated at the behest of Pakistan' as the root cause. Only 2.54 per cent of the total people interviewed think in that way. 

How do Kashmiris believe the 'peace, prosperity and progress of J&K will be ensured and the democratic right of its people will be guaranteed'? Only 5.07 per cent consider merger with Pakistan as the solution, while 9.32 per cent believe the state should remain an integral part of India. But the vast majority - 83.90 per cent - look forward to sovereign and independent state of Jammu and Kashmir as the only solution. 

What do these people mean by independence or 'Azadi'? A six-year-old boy from Safapora village in Baramulla district elucidated the term very nicely in his mother tongue. He said, "Azadi is the situation where there will be no military or militants, where the houses are not burnt, people are not killed and the women are not molested ('Aauraton ka sath badsaluki nehi hoti')". But to others, Azadi has a different meaning. The infuriated young people of Danwhadpora village in Kokernag constituency in the district of Anantnag were chanting slogans right before us when we went there to observe polling: "Hum chahtehen Azadi, Kashmir banega Pakistan".

It is the total alienation of the common people from the Indian state that has made the slogan of Azadi so popular. One of our friends, a lawyer from Srinagar said, "Set aside Pakistan, if there will be a cricket match between India and Israel, the No.1 enemy of the Muslim world, the people of Kashmir will support Israel, but not India". Such is the alienation!

The vast majority of the people (almost 90 per cent) are against partitioning Kashmir between India and Pakistan as per the actual Line of Control or of transferring Muslim majority areas to Pakistan while integrating the Hindu majority areas with India. An even larger segment - 91.53 per cent - of the people interviewed abhor the path of militancy or war as a solution of the Kashmir problem.

They are in favour of a peaceful movement and dialogue and they feel that the dialogue should be between governments of India, Pakistan and the peoples of Jammu & Kashmir. But interestingly, 57.63 per cent of the people interviewed have no faith in any of the political organisations active in Kashmir including the Hurriyat Conference. Hurriyat Conference enjoys the support of 35.59% of Srinagar residents who were interviewed. The majority of those surveyed opposed the election, as did Hurriyat; a majority of the people are also in favour of dialogue, as is Hurriyat. Even then Hurriyat does not enjoy majority support. 

The problem is that Hurriyat is not a single political entity but a conglomeration of 23 political entities. Seven of them, as the executive members of the Conference, wield maximum control over the organisation. The political agenda of all these political outfits are not much particular and clear before the common people. When 83.90 per cent of the people are in favour of azadi, five of the seven executives of Hurriyat are in favour of merging with Pakistan. Though they have some faith in Hurriyat but the people are confused about the political mission of Hurriyat and know little about the parties that it comprises.

Finally, and foremost, the people of Srinagar strongly demand for restoration of normalcy. If normalcy is to be restored in Srinagar the issues raised by the peoples of Srinagar have to be addressed to by all the parties concerned.

(_The author is national committee member, Pakistan-India Peoples' Forum of Peace and Democracy, and joint secretary, West Bengal chapter of the Forum_.)

http://countercurrents.org/j&k-amit.htm


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## akzaman

*Xenophobia, Kashmiri style!*

By Arjimand Hussain Talib

09 August, 2007
Kashmir Times

It is a Catch 22 kind of situation hardly ever seen in Kashmir's chequered history. Even as both militant groups as well as Syed Ali Shah Geelani have toned down their call to migrant laborers to leave Kashmir, hundreds of laborers and small business holders, most of whom are from north and north-eastern India, are packing up their bags for home. To the outside world, Kashmir today represents an addition to the long list of nations and ethnic groups that have engulfed themselves in the fires of xenophobia. 

For a place like Kashmir, anything close to xenophobia, if not xenophobia per se, is a tragic irony in itself. For a tiny and powerless nation witnessing the worst kind of oppression and repression since ages now, the transformation of its image from the subjugated to the tyrant is cruelly unjust. 

Kashmiris have always been thought as the last ones to be chauvinists. But why are today flocks of migrant laborers being driven out from the Valley? How did a people who are celebrated and cherished throughout the world for their warmth and hospitality are today feeling insecure and reacting? 

If one were to remove one's jingoistic spectacles for a while we would see two simple but profound reasons. From a majority of 72.41 per cent in 1941 to 64.19 per cent of the total population as reported in 2001 census Muslims in Jammu & Kashmir are gripped by the constant fear of "demographic engineering" which might well reduce Muslims in Kashmir to a minority. The rate at which non-State subjects - Article 370 of the Indian Constitution notwithstanding - are able to get J&K's citizenship and have been able to dilute the original demographic medley here to the people of the State is alarming too. Although in theory Article 370 was supposed to be a guarantor of J&K's identity after its assimilation into the Indian Union, the ease with which non State-subjects can get land or other properties on a 90-year lease has also been a source of disquiet too. 

But why is the anger directed towards poor laborers who will neither get a Permanent Resident Certificate (PRC), nor buy land on lease or become part of demographic engineering? 
People today in Kashmir ask the question why did they come in such huge numbers in the first place? 

The answers lie much beyond where most of the people are looking for today. The answers lie between the lines of the larger context of Kashmir 's political economy. Let us call spade a spade.

Since my childhood my father has told me interesting stories of Kashmir's former Prime Minister, G M Bakshi, who coincidentally was our close neighbor in our old family house in Srinagar's Chattabal area. What one understood from his stories and the history books is that after the imprisonment of Kashmir's popular leader - Sheikh Muhammad Abdullah - and the installation of Bakshi's puppet regime, the latter was given one single mandate: ingrain corruption into the blood veins of the Kashmiri people by first bribing them with government jobs and contracts, then dividing them and subsequently "winning over them." 

So once during an on-the-spot compensation drive to houses being dismantled during a road widening operation in Srinagar city, when a Kashmiri Pandit got lesser compensation and asked Bakshi Sahab why it was so when his Muslim neighbor got better compensation, Bakshi's reply is said to have been more than an expression of his humorous wit, "Listen my dear! You are already an Indian. Your this neighbor demands Pakistan and my task is to make him an Indian. That is the reason he gets more." 

More than four decades down the line, the same blood having been injected into Kashmiri veins is running in the veins of another generation of Kashmiris even today. What one could understand from history books, those were the times when the policy makers on Kashmir would find Kautilya's Arthshastras very handy in creating situation of "stability" here. 

Apart from subsidies, the ruling political class was mandated to assimilate dissenting and the discontented voices into government services. That is what has actually happened. Living with a government job became the sole objective of an ordinary Kashmiri's life in both urban as well as rural areas. In the process all creative thinking and private enterprise was destroyed. A culture of mediocrity and workless ness took deep roots. Whenever some critical and creative thinking tried to take shape, the conditions so created in the whole political economy made them end up in the government system with a premature death note. In nutshell, it was a political economy which was designed to kill creative private enterprise and breed dependency. That is what explains why lakhs of skilled and unskilled laborers have flooded Kashmir as our own people wait for a government job until death and do not work. That is the reason that despite injecting this kind of government spending, Kashmir ends up back injecting more than double of the financial resources into the Indian economic system in the form of imports than what it gets in the form of so-called subsidies and liberal financial assistance. 

In economics, it is said that when a society's living standards reach a certain degree of prosperity it sheds low income yielding jobs, explained by a backward slope curve. Is Kashmir on that curve now? 

The vacuum created by the Kashmiris in the low-end odd-job segments was just all natural to be filled in by migrant laborers, because a vast majority of our educated and low educated segment was waiting for government jobs. Kashmir has a vibrant construction business. Did we have enough people to do the jobs there? Is the migrant inflow driven by demand or it is the supply which is driving the demand? 

When Europe was in the midst of an economic boom after its industrial revolution, it opened the flood gates for immigrants - a huge chunk of whom were Muslims - to fill in the low-end jobs. Then it was mostly about having cheap labor, sparing the Europeans from doing the kind of low-end jobs which they abhorred. Several historians have written that then the Europeans - who were historically and culturally very conscious of their racial distinctiveness - would hardly bother about who and where the immigrants belonged to. Then it was hardly a concern that the immigrants were coming into Europe with a big cultural baggage and belief systems, which finally went to alter Europe's cultural and religious mosaic to a good extent. Many radical European parties and ideologues - like the British Nationalist Party (BNP) in Britain - today deplore the open-gate policy to the non-European immigrants. These immigrants - mostly Muslims and South Asians - are today a significant racial and religious grouping in Europe. 

But no matter what, the cultural costs, the economic imperatives in all countries and the inevitable realities of globalisation make almost all societies accept immigrants today. Although countries like Australia have taken very radical positions on immigration now, on occasions even letting ship loads of immigrants and refugees vanish in the seas, the fact is that legal immigration to Australia is a reality today. 

The gruesome rape and murder of a 14-year old girl in north Kashmir in July precipitated the call for all migrant laborers to leave Kashmir. This has come after years of simmering discontent with the migrant laborers bringing in crime, diseases and moral practices which are seen not in conformity with Kashmiri culture and values. Yet, the compelling need of migrant laborers has been making the Kashmiris bear them out in spite of the simmering anger. 

There is no doubt that migrant laborers have brought in many social ills to Kashmir which were not part of Kashmiri traditional social set up. There is also no doubt that both society and local administration needs to check the criminal activities of migrant laborers. But in economic and moral terms, can we afford to lose them going back for good? What would happen to thousands of Kashmiris living in India and other parts of the world if they were to be sent back home on similar grounds? 
From barbers to brick kiln workers, from laborers on paddy fields of Kashmir's countryside to the workers building border roads in Kashmir, migrant laborers are there everywhere. Jingoistic bravado apart, what would happen if overnight we would have no workers to work in low-end jobs? Do we have enough work-force to fill in the demand? What would happen to the construction activity? 

The fact is that there is a profound economic dimension to the presence of the huge number of the migrant laborers in Kashmir. The major reason being that they are coming here because there is a huge demand for them. Despite a raging conflict, what attracts them are higher wages, good working conditions, friendly employers and pleasant weather here. There is another simple economic explanation to this: it is the demand which has been driving the supply of laborers to Kashmir and not the vice versa. 

What an outright outflow of migrant laborers would do is make Kashmiris as oppressors in the eyes of the world, no matter the subjugation they are going through themselves. Political and social awakening is required to address greater ills: ethnic and demographic engineering, lease out of land for 90 years and other macro issues. These poor laborers are not going to get Permanent Resident Certificates of our State. 

Let us do not lose sight of the manner we Kashmiris are projected today. Beyond the misleading news coverage of India's national media on Kashmir there are a million stories of our hospitality and peaceful co-existence which have remained shrouded somewhere. For instance, there are nearly 3000 non-Kashmiri students - mostly females - getting their education training in dozens of education training colleges in Kashmir. They are here since years, even in the midst of the conflict. Srinagar's National Institute of Technology (NIT) has a students union whose head is a non-local and two-thirds of its body is comprised of non-locals. Dozens of roads of border areas, being maintained by the Border Roads Organisation (BRO), are constructed and maintained by non-Kashmiris. The multi-billion rupees fruit trade of Kashmir is done through non-locals who visit the nook and corner of Kashmir in search of contracts. All of India's major private companies, mainly telecom giants like Airtel and Aircel have non-Kashmiris at their helm. Almost all central government undertakings, including public telecom company, BSNL and railway construction company - IRCON - in Kashmir are run by non-locals, who are living side by side with their local hosts peacefully. Almost all our sweet shops are run by non-locals. The goal gappas are a reality in Kashmir because of these migrants. The kiosks selling variety of roadside snacks from baked pulses to samosas are all run by non locals. 

To send all of these back would be a blot on our rich traditions of hospitality, tolerance and peaceful existence. Kashmiris would do better by not letting their enemies paint a greater demon out of them. We live in an intense world of inter-dependence and let us continue to create examples of peaceful co-existence and tolerance. But the response to Census reports surely need people put their heads together. 

(The columnist can be e-mailed at arjimand@gmail.com).


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## akzaman

*Kashmiri Students In India Face Discrimination*

By Rama Lakshmi

The Washington Post
18 June,2003

MUZAFFARNAGAR, India -- Three months ago, Ejaz Husain Jaan was just another Kashmiri student living away from home, nervously studying for his finals and taking short breaks to catch the World Cup cricket scores on television.

Now, he is in jail, facing terrorism charges for allegedly aiding a 
plan to blow up important government buildings, an accusation he 
vehemently denies.

"I came out of Kashmir to study, not to be a terrorist," said Jaan, 
23, looking tired and bewildered as he stepped out of a crowded 
courtroom in Uttar Pradesh state recently. "In Kashmir, there is 
always a threat of the gun -- the army's or the militants'. I wanted 
to escape the climate of fear and violence.

"But now all my career hopes are destroyed. I could not even finish my tests," he said, starting to cry.

According to human rights groups in New Delhi, scores of Muslim 
students, traders and professionals who quit violence-wracked Kashmir for other parts of India in search of education and job opportunities have faced increased harassment and discrimination in the past three years.

A report by the People's Union for Democratic Rights said Kashmiri Muslims in New Delhi suffer from "a deep sense of insecurity and vulnerability" and are victims of police harassment, humiliating searches, intimidation, arbitrary detentions and demands for bribes by local policemen under the pretext of fighting terrorism.

The climate of suspicion, many said, has sharpened since December 2001, when gunmen suspected of being Islamic rebels fighting for Kashmir's secession from India attacked the Parliament complex in New Delhi. Kashmir, India's only Muslim-majority state, has been ravaged since 1989 by a separatist revolt that has claimed more than 35,000 lives, according to official estimates.

"The last 14 years have been a dark period for the people of Kashmir. Many people have tried to escape the violence and come out to study and work, but they face suspicion wherever they go," said Mehbooba Mufti, the chief of Kashmir's ruling People's Democratic Party. "The stereotype is that every Kashmiri holds a gun. Do Kashmiris have to rip open their hearts each time to prove they are not militants?"

Indian officials said there is no campaign to harass Kashmiris 
because of their religion or their roots.

"We have to be vigilant," said a senior police officer who asked not to be named. "We don't pick up Kashmiris at random, we follow our intelligence inputs and phone tapping. We cannot always wait for the attack to take place; we have to prevent it also."

But human rights activists argued that the police often act on the 
basis of flimsy evidence and that the process lacks accountability.

"We are not saying India should be soft on terrorism, but the state's coercive powers must act like a surgeon's scalpel rather than come down like a hammer," said Ravi Nair, who heads the South Asia Human Rights Documentation Center. "With every case of harassment of an innocent, the gulf between Kashmiris and the rest of India widens."

Discrimination and harassment are a simple fact of daily life for 
many Kashmiris living outside their home state, said Afshan Gul, 23, a film student in New Delhi, who complained of innumerable searches and questioning by police.

"The searches and questions do not stop when you show your identity card," she said. "For a Kashmiri Muslim, it usually begins after you show it. They don't just search you, they rip off your dignity, too."

More than a decade of violence by Islamic militants has hardened 
perceptions about Kashmiri Muslims among some Indians as well as the police. The bias, Kashmiris said, permeates everyday activities from finding an apartment to finding a job.

"The moment the landlords got to know I was a Kashmiri Muslim, they would make excuses to say no," said Khursheed Ahmed Qazi, 38, a businessman who spent several months looking for an apartment in the capital last year. "The bias against us was clear."

Abrar Ahmad Dewani, 24, a computer student from Kashmir, said that when he interviewed two years ago for a job as a Web site designer for a New Delhi company that makes bathroom fixtures, the questions had nothing to do with his skills.

"The man looked at my [résumé] and said, 'Are you a Kashmiri? 
Kashmiris are terrorists,' " recalled Dewani. "I said . . . 'I don't 
want to work for you.' I felt humiliated."

At another job interview, a prospective employer told him he was 
"very scared of Kashmiris."

The circumstances surrounding the arrest of Jaan and three other 
students in March shook the small group of Kashmiri undergraduates studying in Uttar Pradesh, who said they came under increased surveillance from the police and became the target of public suspicion and scorn.

"The police searched all the rooms of the students. My professor told me not to call him or visit him. Everybody in college looked at us with suspicion," said Abdul Rashid, 26, a graduate student who lived in the room next to Jaan's. "The neighbors would look at us and say, 'Look, the terrorists are coming' or 'What are you bombing next?' "

Jaan said he was interrogated in dark rooms for nine days without a lawyer. He said the police forced him to sign several blank pages that he feared could be used as confessions.

Police said they found maps of India's "vital installations" in 
Jaan's possession and that phone records show he received calls from a leader of the banned militant group Jaish-i-Muhammad.

Despite the perils, young Kashmiris say they will continue to leave 
home because of the lack of jobs in their state.

"I have no choice but to leave Kashmir," said Tanweer Sadiq, 25, a recent computer science graduate who is applying for jobs in New Delhi. "There are no jobs in Kashmir. I knew I would have to battle a stereotype when I [went] there, but it is still worth taking a 
chance. It's a question of my career."

© 2003 The Washington Post Company


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## BATMAN

*Indian army officer rapes a minor girl in Banihal *
Kashmir Watch :: Exclusives


> Jammu, August 20 (NAK): Jammu and Kashmir police has registered rape case against a low ranking Indian army officer for allegedly raping a minor girl in Banihal area of Ramban district.
> 
> Sources claimed that the family members of a minor girl, who is resident of Sarbagni village of Banihal, lodged a written compliant in Police Station Ramsoo alleging that their daughter has been raped continuously by an army solider.
> 
> The complainants, sources told a local news agency News Agency of Kashmir that the *girl was threatened by the army officer not to disclose the matter to anyone. *
> 
> The family came to know about the rape only when the girl was declared pregnant by the doctors, sources said adding the family immediately informed the police about the alleged rape.
> 
> The *accused solider has been identified as Lance Naik PK Sarkar of 23 RR. Though he has not been arrested so far*, sources said a case has been registered against him in the police station.
> 
> "The officer allegedly had a physical relationship with the minor girl for last two to three months", sources said.
> 
> Meanwhile, an Indian defence spokesman said that the army authorities have taken strong note of the allegations leveled by the family members against the solider.
> 
> "Army authorities have taken cognizance of a complaint filed in Ramsoo Police Station, a minor girl against Lance Naik PK Sarkar", defence spokesman Col Goswami told the news agency.
> 
> _[Note: In the 18 years of conflict in Indian occupied Kashmir, there have been many allegations of rapes and molestations particularly against the Indian troopers. A 1994 United Nations publication (E/CN.4/1995/42, pp.63-69) says that 'during 1992 alone, 882 women were reportedly gang-raped by Indian security forces in Jammu and Kashmir'.
> 
> According to the Kashmiri-Canadian Council, more than 6,300 Kashmiri women have been raped. According to a report by Human Rights Watch 2001 "Rape is used by the Indian security forces to attack Kashmiri women suspected of sympathizing with Freedom Fighters."
> 
> Women separatist leader Aasiya Andrabi attributes the absence of rape in the report to "well entrenched Indian policy". _
> "Basically India uses rape as a war crime and they don't treat it as a HR violation. So it employs all curbs and other tactics on the rights groups to pressurise them to desist from publishing it".]


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## HAIDER

Srinagar, occupied Kashmir, March 2 (PPI): In occupied Kashmir, Indian troops have been armed with Israeli made Travor assault rifles to crush the Kashmiris righteous struggle. The TAR-21 Travor rifle costing around $6500, is one of the most modern assault rifles available in the world. According to Kashmir Media Service, the rifles are part of India's strategy to use them during siege and search operation in civilian areas in the disputed territory. (Posted @ 22:42 PST)
- DAWN - Latest Stories; March 02, 2008

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## ImranKhan

Well common sense really, using weapons developed by a country which is plagued with constant multiple insurgencies since it's creation, kind of a specialty of Israel. Makes me wonder why they didn't bought Israeli weaponry years ago, might have prevented 1/4 of their territory to fall into the hands of naxalites and their maoist affiliates, well I guess better now then never.


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## mujahideen

Honestly as far as the weapons part is concerned, I personally think that India has the right to use weapons from anywhere. We also use weapons from other countries, so I personally think this is a internal matter of India. Just like they shouldn't tell us what weapons we should use we also shouldn't tell them what weapons to use.

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## ImranKhan

mujahideen said:


> Honestly as far as the weapons part is concerned, I personally think that India has the right to use weapons from anywhere. We also use weapons from other countries, so I personally think this is a internal matter of India. Just like they shouldn't tell us what weapons we should use we also shouldn't tell them what weapons to use.



Totally agree with you, but to be fair both sides feel uncomfortable at each other's military purchases and quiet rightly so.


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## su-47

what bothers me about those pics are that the soldiers arent wearing helmets and their body armour is minimal. in a place like kashmir, i'd expect indian soldiers to wear full battle gear

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

The price should be $650.00 and not $6500.


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## Bill Longley

*the reasons i think are

1] india is an imperial colonial power, just look at whats happening in northeast,jharkand and other maoist infected areas.

2] india is an evil empire ,in disguise of seculerism, govt of india is helping fanatic terror groups like shivsina,dharmasina,rss etc to eliminate all the minorities and make inda a hindu rashtra. one should remember the present govt of congress known to be a SECULER PARTY WAS THE REASON FOR DEHLI MASSACE AND OPERATION BLUE STAR

3] any concession to kashmir means ,indians have to give the same to other more than 14 states who are fighting for their God gifted right. so KASHMIRIS SHOULD FORGET INDEPENDENCE BECAUSE THEIR INDEPENDENCE MEANS DISINTEGRATION OF INDIA EMPIRE.

4] the attitude of indians clearly REFLECTS THAT THEY ARE NOT INTRESTED IN KASHMIRI PPL AND THEY CAN ARRANGE A NEW GENOCIDE TO ELEMINATE ALL MUSLIM KASHMIRIES SO THAT NO ONE SHOWS DISSENT. FROM INDIAN VIEW POINT KASHMIRI LAND IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE POOR MUSLIM INHABITANTS.

5] the indian GOVT THINKS IT IS A BIG MARKET AND GREAT POWERS HAVE GREAT INTREST IN ITS MARKET. SO THEY CAN EASILY GET AWAY FROM GENOCIDE OF KASHMIRIES AND GROSS HUMAN RIGHT ABUSES AGAINST POPULATION.

6.] THE KASHMIR FREEDOM STRUGGLE HAS CAUSED GREAT LOSSES TO INDIAN EMPIRE. INDIAN ARMY AND PARAMILITARIES ARE TURNING MENTAL CASES. ACCORDING TO INDIAN CHEIF 100 SOLDIERS ON THE AVERAGE COMMIT SUSIDE EVERY YEAR AND 250 ALONE COMMITED SUSIDE OR KILLED THEIR FELLOWS IN 2005. SIMILARLY DUE TO MENTAL BANKRUPSY INDIANS ARE ACQUISEING NEIGHBORS EVEN SPREADING AIDS IN THE RANKS JUST TO HIDE THE SHAME AND DISHONOR OF THEIR ARMIES ACTS AND CONDUCTS.THERE FORE ITS QUITE VISIBLE THAT INDIA A HOLLOW NUCLEAR POWER WILL NEVER GIVE KASHMIRIS WHAT THEY WANT. IT WILL ELIMINATE THEM ALL IF THEY KEEP ON ASKING FREEDOM BUT WILL NEVER COMPLY WITH WISHES OF REPRESSED PPL

india is illegalay occuping kashmir. it want to occupy azad kashmir and our northern areas also so that
1] it could have link to central asia, remember the wakhan belt[afghanistan] which is only few km between us and cental asia

2] india want to cut the link between us and china

its a realist world where strategic and national intrest are more precious than low of morality or religon.

pro peace propoganda by indians is only a time gaining and diverting tactics.

do you think if we agree on loc as permanent boarder. peace will prevail and kashmir issue will end?????????????

no it will never
read the indian history read how indians occupied independent states of sikkim, jnagarh, hyderabad etc.

the problem with us is that although we have 1000 year of experence we still fail to understand enemies thought process and how he acts*


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## Tiki Tam Tam

What makes you feel that Kashmir is of Pakistan?

Why will Pakistan never leave Kashmir can be a legitimate question too!

Now, go reinvent the wheel that has been done here as also in many other forums.

Even the GoI and GoP has not found an answer, but maybe you are clever than them, who knows?


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## Bill Longley

sir then
go for what kashmiri say[:p]

i mean ask them what they want a for God's sake have mercy on ur sena which is committing suicide due to sence of their guilt


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## Awesome

Going for what Kashmiris say is once again echoing what Pakistanis say. There was a brief period where Pakistan's demand for Kashmir and Kashmiris demand for Freedom was in secondary contradiction. Of course both did however agreed that they need to get rid of India out of this equation first.

However these days more and more Pakistanis are content with letting go of the part of Kashmir we control, so long as India does so too. It is the only solution. It is acceptable to Kashmiris, it will be acceptable to Pakistanis too. Only India would not agree due to some of the reasons you mentioned above.

Especially the fact that once India let's go of Kashmir, all of it's imperial impositions would stand up in arms as well.

It's quite evident that India has no love for Kashmiris and there's only hatred vice versa. The level of animosity meted against India can be measured in the fact that India has done a lot of development in their part of Kashmir compared to what Pakistan has done in AJK. But there's no substitute for freedom.

It's actually kind of silly on the part of Kashmiris too. They would get a lot of freedoms if they quiet down their rebellion. But we Muslims just cannot be ruled. 

And there lies the problem for the Indian choice for Kashmiris. Even if you see the current Muslim population of India they generally are a disgruntled lot. Some even mock India, some hate. India has done a lot for their appeasement, but they still are an uncontrollable bunch.

India is no saint either. When it's pinned into a corner, it chooses the option of massacre to passify any and all rebellions. Indians have been committing massacres of minorities at the rate of once per decade. The thing is Indian Muslims will always try to rule over the rest of India or such is their reputation. 

You do remember that when Pakistan was made a significant Muslim population didn't want a separate homeland. They were in the hopes of one day overpowering the Hindus and ruling over all of India. That is the Indian Muslim's mindset. By comparison, the Pakistani only wants Kashmir.

So it's a lose-lose for all three parties if Kashmiris are asked to become part of India. The only way forward is total independence for Kashmir.


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## genmirajborgza786

Asim Aquil said:


> Going for what Kashmiris say is once again echoing what Pakistanis say. There was a brief period where Pakistan's demand for Kashmir and Kashmiris demand for Freedom was in secondary contradiction. Of course both did however agreed that they need to get rid of India out of this equation first.
> 
> However these days more and more Pakistanis are content with letting go of the part of Kashmir we control, so long as India does so too. It is the only solution. It is acceptable to Kashmiris, it will be acceptable to Pakistanis too. Only India would not agree due to some of the reasons you mentioned above.
> 
> Especially the fact that once India let's go of Kashmir, all of it's imperial impositions would stand up in arms as well.
> 
> It's quite evident that India has no love for Kashmiris and there's only hatred vice versa. The level of animosity meted against India can be measured in the fact that India has done a lot of development in their part of Kashmir compared to what Pakistan has done in AJK. But there's no substitute for freedom.
> 
> It's actually kind of silly on the part of Kashmiris too. They would get a lot of freedoms if they quiet down their rebellion. But we Muslims just cannot be ruled.
> 
> And there lies the problem for the Indian choice for Kashmiris. Even if you see the current Muslim population of India they generally are a disgruntled lot. Some even mock India, some hate. India has done a lot for their appeasement, but they still are an uncontrollable bunch.
> 
> India is no saint either. When it's pinned into a corner, it chooses the option of massacre to passify any and all rebellions. Indians have been committing massacres of minorities at the rate of once per decade. The thing is Indian Muslims will always try to rule over the rest of India or such is their reputation.
> 
> You do remember that when Pakistan was made a significant Muslim population didn't want a separate homeland. They were in the hopes of one day overpowering the Hindus and ruling over all of India. That is the Indian Muslim's mindset. By comparison, the Pakistani only wants Kashmir.
> 
> So it's a lose-lose for all three parties if Kashmiris are asked to become part of India. The only way forward is total independence for Kashmir.



but why should we let northern areas and azad Kashmir go too in a totally independence for Kashmir solution Pakistan cant afford to loose any more land after siechen the best option is to be realistic and let India have her part of Kashmir and Pakistan have her part of Kashmir with if possible some minor adjustment here and there in favor of Pakistan i think India might consider it as a good will gesture but an independent Kashmir will be a totally lose-lose situation for both India and Pakistan why go for it my saying is this to break India if Pakistan will also has to let 83,000sqkm of territory's secede then better for us India not break. imo


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## Bill Longley

sir 
Gilgit and baltistan is seprate story
they fought for their independence and freed thir area from dogra bullies and requested Government of Pakistan to Join Federation

so they are our part
where as kashmir is other story with different back ground and history


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

You people are forgetting one of the most important issues---whomsoever controls kashmir---controls the source of water.

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## solid snake

Asim Aquil said:


> However these days more and more Pakistanis are content with letting go of the part of Kashmir we control, so long as India does so too. It is the only solution. It is acceptable to Kashmiris, it will be acceptable to Pakistanis too. Only India would not agree due to some of the reasons you mentioned above.



Pakistan's northern areas, which form our border with China is a part of the original princely state of Kashmir. I highly doubt Pakistan will let go of such a vital area.


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## Awesome

genmirajborgza786 said:


> but why should we let northern areas and azad Kashmir go too in a totally independence for Kashmir solution Pakistan cant afford to loose any more land after siechen the best option is to be realistic and let India have her part of Kashmir and Pakistan have her part of Kashmir with if possible some minor adjustment here and there in favor of Pakistan i think India might consider it as a good will gesture but an independent Kashmir will be a totally lose-lose situation for both India and Pakistan why go for it my saying is this to break India if Pakistan will also has to let 83,000sqkm territory's secede then better for us India not break. imo


AJK is not Pakistani territory to begin with.

Pakistan should let it go for the sake of settling the Kashmir issue with India.


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## Awesome

solid snake said:


> Pakistan's northern areas, which form our border with China is a part of the original princely state of Kashmir. I highly doubt Pakistan will let go of such a vital area.


That is debatable.

The Northern Areas were forcibly occupied. The people living there are more or less Pashtun than Kashmiri. Historical Kashmir and Northern Areas never had anything common.

Anyway, we'll put that case up with the Kashmiris. Let them decide.


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## solid snake

Asim Aquil said:


> That is debatable.
> 
> The Northern Areas were forcibly occupied. The people living there are more or less Pashtun than Kashmiri. Historical Kashmir and Northern Areas never had anything common.
> 
> Anyway, we'll put that case up with the Kashmiris. Let them decide.



It is not debatable that the northern areas were a part of the state of Kashmir. That means if AJK is going to be let go, then the northern areas must also be let go.

How will this referendum be implemented? Will all the areas forming Kashmir in 1947 vote over independence, or just AJK and Indian occupied Kashmir? And what happens if the northern areas vote to stay with Pakistan but the rest of Kashmir votes for independence? Will the northern areas have no choice but to join the new independent Kashmir?

It is just not worth it for Pakistan to let Kashmir be independent. Only scenario acecptable to me and I'm sure the government is that all of Kashmir becomes part of Pakistan. India is too scared to ask the Kashmiris, because they will probably vote to join Pakistan.


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## ak56

Why do we worry so much about Kashmir. If you read some history, the hindu king who ruled over most of Kashmir wanted to join with India, fearing a pakistani intrusion. 

The princly states that wanted to join with us are with us and those who wanted to join with India are with them. If you see it legally, Kashmir should belong to India. 

I dont know why people of our country are obcessed with Kashmir. Let it go and let the rest of pakistan develop. Development should be the first priority, to enable atleast our future generation have access to the life style that the western people enjoy.

Peace!


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## indiapakistanfriendship

> Going for what Kashmiris say is once again echoing what Pakistanis say. There was a brief period where Pakistan's demand for Kashmir and Kashmiris demand for Freedom was in secondary contradiction. Of course both did however agreed that they need to get rid of India out of this equation first.
> 
> However these days more and more Pakistanis are content with letting go of the part of Kashmir we control, so long as India does so too. It is the only solution. It is acceptable to Kashmiris, it will be acceptable to Pakistanis too. Only India would not agree due to some of the reasons you mentioned above.
> 
> Especially the fact that once India let's go of Kashmir, all of it's imperial impositions would stand up in arms as well.
> 
> It's quite evident that India has no love for Kashmiris and there's only hatred vice versa. The level of animosity meted against India can be measured in the fact that India has done a lot of development in their part of Kashmir compared to what Pakistan has done in AJK. But there's no substitute for freedom.
> 
> It's actually kind of silly on the part of Kashmiris too. They would get a lot of freedoms if they quiet down their rebellion. But we Muslims just cannot be ruled.
> 
> And there lies the problem for the Indian choice for Kashmiris. Even if you see the current Muslim population of India they generally are a disgruntled lot. Some even mock India, some hate. India has done a lot for their appeasement, but they still are an uncontrollable bunch.
> 
> India is no saint either. When it's pinned into a corner, it chooses the option of massacre to passify any and all rebellions. Indians have been committing massacres of minorities at the rate of once per decade. The thing is Indian Muslims will always try to rule over the rest of India or such is their reputation.
> 
> You do remember that when Pakistan was made a significant Muslim population didn't want a separate homeland. They were in the hopes of one day overpowering the Hindus and ruling over all of India. That is the Indian Muslim's mindset. By comparison, the Pakistani only wants Kashmir.
> 
> So it's a lose-lose for all three parties if Kashmiris are asked to become part of India. The only way forward is total independence for Kashmir.



You see mate the problem lies herein ,Pakistanis have sentiments for Kashmir and wish its independence but our view is different, here we believe all Indians have rights over Kashmir just like Kashmiris themselves so why would we let go of something we believe is rightful to us and are not under pressure to do so? Frankly we dont care bout AJK we would not even mind if it joins with Pakistan but we Indians have lived with Kashmir for long and believe that every Indian including Kashmiris have righjt over each and everey territory of India , the same sentiment shared by you and many Pakistanis on Baloch issue holds true for us too


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## solid snake

I agree with ak56. It is time to let it go or at least put it on the backburner. Let the rest of Pakistan develop, we have 40&#37; of Kashmir and it is proving very beneficial to us because of our border with China.

Let us not shoot ourselves in the foot by asking for a referendum in Kashmir over its status.


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## UnitedPak

While certain members seem to be concerned about Pakistan only, you have to remember that Kashmiris are prisoners in their own homes. I dont know about you, but living in a tiny state with 700 000 Indian troops cannot be their ideal lifestyle decision. I guess I wouldnt be bothered about this if India hadnt turned Kashmir into a massive prison.
India has more troops in Kashmir than Pakistan has in its entire army.
Anyone with a brain can see its nothing to do with fear of invasion, its more about oppressing Kashmiris.

I for one am not bothered who Kashmiris decide to join, as long as the decision is theirs entirely. If they want their own state, Pakistan should back them up.
But its obvious they would vote for Pakistan, hence India has blocked any attempts at a vote taking place in Kashmir for 60 years.

I guess a big thank you is in order to the UN, who were meant to enforce this vote. The UNs strategy is all too familiar, cause trouble and bloodshed, then leave without restoring order.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Read the UN resolution!

Again, we go off reinventing the wheel!!

As far as Kashmir being a huge prison, some could say the same for NWFP, FATA et al?

Perceptions.


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## IceCold

Its useless to debate whether india would let go or would not or perhaps what are motives behind india not letting kashmir go? The fact of the matter is that we pakistanies need to realize that the time when we could do something about it is long gone, and we did not do a damn about it thanks to our internal politics, now its a different story specially after 9/11. The only solution to kashmir issue was by means of force, since now this option cannot be materialized, to expect that india will accept any solution other then kashmir being part of the indian federation would be like living in a fools paradise.


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## dabong1

Asim Aquil said:


> AJK is not Pakistani territory to begin with.
> 
> Pakistan should let it go for the sake of settling the Kashmir issue with India.




Why should it.........why dont we have a vote and see if the people of AJK want to join the federation of pakistan,the union of india or if they want to free of both.
I am certain if a vote was carried out the people of AJK would join pakistan.


----------



## dabong1

indiapakistanfriendship said:


> You see mate the problem lies herein ,Pakistanis have sentiments for Kashmir and wish its independence but our view is different, here we believe all Indians have rights over Kashmir just like Kashmiris themselves so why would we let go of something we believe is rightful to us and are not under pressure to do so? Frankly we dont care bout AJK we would not even mind if it joins with Pakistan but we Indians have lived with Kashmir for long and believe that every Indian including Kashmiris have righjt over each and everey territory of India , the same sentiment shared by you and many Pakistanis on Baloch issue holds true for us too




You a mistaken if you think kashmiri people think that have right over india.....no we dont....you have no rights over us and we have no rights over you.

If we loved india so much why have over a 100'000 people been killed fighting for there freedom from indian oppression.

Sorry we have never been with you indians and never want to be in the future.

JEHAD FOR PEACE.....


----------



## dabong1

A cross between hamas and hezbollha is what is needed in kashmir.
Targeted killing of indian occupation officals in kashmir and attacks on indian proper are what are needed.
A few well placed attacks on the indian military are the call of the day.

The indians can back and fund suicide missions in pakistan,i am sure we can do the same.


----------



## ak56

UnitedPak said:


> While certain members seem to be concerned about Pakistan only, you have to remember that Kashmiris are prisoners in their own homes. I dont know about you, but living in a tiny state with 700 000 Indian troops cannot be their ideal lifestyle decision. I guess I wouldnt be bothered about this if India hadnt turned Kashmir into a massive prison.
> India has more troops in Kashmir than Pakistan has in its entire army.
> *Anyone with a brain can see its nothing to do with fear of invasion, its more about oppressing Kashmiris.*
> I for one am not bothered who Kashmiris decide to join, as long as the decision is theirs entirely. If they want their own state, Pakistan should back them up.
> But its obvious they would vote for Pakistan, hence India has blocked any attempts at a vote taking place in Kashmir for 60 years.
> 
> I guess a big thank you is in order to the UN, who were meant to enforce this vote. The UNs strategy is all too familiar, cause trouble and bloodshed, then leave without restoring order.



I am talking about the fear of the Hindu king who joined the princly state or Kashmir with India, not the current GOI.

Yes, even most of our Army is also located in Kashmir.

India has indeed conducted vote, whether it was rigged or not we can never know.

What I mean to say is, let India do whatever it wants with the IHK. We are not only spending more money for defence but even our vast pool of demographic resources in terms of huge army and scientists who if worked for a cause of developmnt can transform Pakistan into a developed country with first class trains, transport, world class farming, and companies who will generate us lot of foreign exchange. But all this will not happen if we dont change our views about Kashmir and enimosity with India. This also should be reciprocated by India, which I am confident will happen if we declare IHK as part of India and strike peace before war strikes us.


----------



## ak56

UnitedPak said:


> While certain members seem to be concerned about Pakistan only, you have to remember that Kashmiris are prisoners in their own homes. I dont know about you, but living in a tiny state with 700 000 Indian troops cannot be their ideal lifestyle decision. I guess I wouldnt be bothered about this if India hadnt turned Kashmir into a massive prison.
> India has more troops in Kashmir than Pakistan has in its entire army.
> Anyone with a brain can see its nothing to do with fear of invasion, its more about oppressing Kashmiris.
> 
> I for one am not bothered who Kashmiris decide to join, as long as the decision is theirs entirely. If they want their own state, Pakistan should back them up.
> *But its obvious they would vote for Pakistan*, hence India has blocked any attempts at a vote taking place in Kashmir for 60 years.
> 
> I guess a big thank you is in order to the UN, who were meant to enforce this vote. The UNs strategy is all too familiar, cause trouble and bloodshed, then leave without restoring order.



Why do you think so.

The bangladesis supported the Indian army to fight against their own mother country to get the so called freedom.

But did the kashmiri's fight for us during 1965 or 1971. They were just mute spectators when our brave soldiers sacrificed their lives because they thought they are saving kashmiris. This is one more reason why we should stop bothering about the Kashmiris. Let them decide their own fate, whether good or bad.


----------



## indiapakistanfriendship

> You a mistaken if you think kashmiri people think that have right over india.....no we dont.



Its your call either exercise your rights or dont , no one can force you.



> .you have no rights over us and we have no rights over you.



Oh yeah , hell yeah we have rights over you and the land you are sitting in(IHK) , it belongs to the federation of India and any citizen of India has rights over it, if you want come south and settle down in Tamilnadu , who bothers , start business here who bothers we have rights over each and every bit of Indian Kashmir irespective of person being Telugu or Tamil of Bihari to Naga to Assamese. Period and we wont bother to shoot down anyone taking our rights away . period here too.




> If we loved india so much why have over a 100'000 people been killed fighting for there freedom from indian oppression.


Well then you are the laziest bunch of freedom fighters I have ever seen, have you for petes sake seen the freedom and liberation struglle in major conflict zones, you guys are not even close.
Fight your war instead of sacrificing Pakistanis as lambs for your freedom struggle, why should they die or why should their nation spend millions for your sake.



> Sorry we have never been with you indians and never want to be in the future.
> 
> JEHAD FOR PEACE.....



You have a choice dont you , If you are isgruntled you can either leave India, live here disgruntled all your life or realise the reality and move on.



> A cross between hamas and hezbollha is what is needed in kashmir.


What prevented this deadly combination from becoming true for fifty years or a good decade ago when the conflict was at its peak.


> Targeted killing of indian occupation officals in kashmir and attacks on indian proper are what are needed.
> A few well placed attacks on the indian military are the call of the day.



Blah blah .. tried and tested for a long period and failed miserably.



> The indians can back and fund suicide missions in pakistan,i am sure we can do the same.



Why would we fund suicide mission in Pakistan(if true), why should we give horese arse to what is happening in Balochistan or NWFP, we do it as a counter measure or tit fot tat for Pakistans involvement in Kashmir issue. Pakistani leadership has begun realising that it is futile supporting your cause and sacrificing its people for you and has shed bellicosity and has started talking peace, so only in your whims and fancy would Pkaistni government up its ante. Frankly Kashmir is the sick man of Asia and I hope we two nations can solve it and move on .


----------



## dabong1

indiapakistanfriendship said:


> Its your call either exercise your rights or dont , no one can force you..



The only "rights" we want are the ones promised to us by the UN.




indiapakistanfriendship said:


> Oh yeah , hell yeah we have rights over you and the land you are sitting in(IHK) , it belongs to the federation of India and any citizen of India has rights over it, if you want come south and settle down in Tamilnadu , who bothers , start business here who bothers we have rights over each and every bit of Indian Kashmir irespective of person being Telugu or Tamil of Bihari to Naga to Assamese. Period and we wont bother to shoot down anyone taking our rights away . period here too...



So can you as a non kashmir resident buy land in kashmir...?
A kashmiri on either side of the LOC can buy land in india and pakistan but non kashmiri can not buy land on either side of the border in kashmir.







indiapakistanfriendship said:


> Well then you are the laziest bunch of freedom fighters I have ever seen, have you for petes sake seen the freedom and liberation struglle in major conflict zones, you guys are not even close..



Well we had over a half a million indians tied down for over a decade and made you spend billions......you should thank osama/bush that the 9/11 took place and the influx of afghan/arab/punjabi veterans of the afghan war did not flood into kashmir.
We had a decade of conflict and and then the peace process under mushy that has led to nothing but backtracking from the indians.
Between 15/20 years of conflict with actual military struggle in its proper sense over a 10 years period.
How long did it take the vietnamese,chinese ect to win there war against occupation forces..?
We have not even reached half way yet compared to the above.







indiapakistanfriendship said:


> Fight your war instead of sacrificing Pakistanis as lambs for your freedom struggle, why should they die or why should their nation spend millions for your sake....



Becauce where brothers and one nation......pakistan can only be complete once kashmir is part of the pakistan federation.





indiapakistanfriendship said:


> You have a choice dont you , If you are isgruntled you can either leave India, live here disgruntled all your life or realise the reality and move on.....



Choice.......i also have the choice to fight for my freedom.




indiapakistanfriendship said:


> What prevented this deadly combination from becoming true for fifty years or a good decade ago when the conflict was at its peak......



The thing that prevented the palestinians from having hamas since the invasion of israel is the same reason kashmir did not have a hamas like organisation over the same period.
The kashmir freedom struggle was drawn down to see if the peace process could work and also the 9/11 attacks was not a good time to be backing military movements.....things have changed.




indiapakistanfriendship said:


> Blah blah .. tried and tested for a long period and failed miserably.



How wrong you are....it just started to get going before the 9/11 attacks and then the "peace process" kicked in.





indiapakistanfriendship said:


> Why would we fund suicide mission in Pakistan(if true), why should we give horese arse to what is happening in Balochistan or NWFP, we do it as a counter measure or tit fot tat for Pakistans involvement in Kashmir issue. Pakistani leadership has begun realising that it is futile supporting your cause and sacrificing its people for you and has shed bellicosity and has started talking peace, so only in your whims and fancy would Pkaistni government up its ante. Frankly Kashmir is the sick man of Asia and I hope we two nations can solve it and move on .



You have had your chance to be fair and reach some sort of an accord with the pak govt.....mushy offered you almost everything including putting the UN resolution to one side......india did move inch.
It shows to all of us that the only way to get kashmir is through a military struggle.


----------



## indiapakistanfriendship

> The only "rights" we want are the ones promised to us by the UN.



As I said its your call, the UN does not seem to care , again its your call , frankly we don't care.



> So can you as a non kashmir resident buy land in kashmir...?
> A kashmiri on either side of the LOC can buy land in india and pakistan but non kashmiri can not buy land on either side of the border in kashmir.



A stupid rule and an archaic one, I dont give horse crap as to what Nehru and his foolish policy has to say maybe you would have been happy if we changed the demographics of the region like the way Chinese do to Tibet.

Anyways I dont plan to buy land in Kashmir , too far away from home but I can visit srinagar, go for trekking or mountain climbing in ladhak and I dont need your permission do I?



> Well we had over a half a million indians tied down for over a decade and made you spend billions.....



Its a huge tract of land with lots of water flowing and we dont mind spending millions or keeping a million men on standby , we have the money, the resource . Its my tax money and I am happy to spend it.

Before thumping your chest those good men and billions spent are in response to Pakistani millitary threat of invasion so dont dream that your Jihad has achieved it. Lets see where your jihad heads the moment support from Pakistan ceases.



> .you should thank osama/bush that the 9/11 took place and the influx of afghan/arab/punjabi veterans of the afghan war did not flood into kashmir.



Even befor 9/11 Kashmir confilt was what I would term "low intensity" one when compared to major international struggles, so it would have not made difference.

Also India has upped its ante aginst the insurgency starting from fencing the border to actively engaging the millitants and their support infrastructure so 9/11 would not have made mush of a differnce.



> We had a decade of conflict and and then the peace process under mushy that has led to nothing but backtracking from the indians.



Nope a lots of Indians are happy so are a lot of Pakistanis , why should we die for your cause which is dead anyways. 



> Between 15/20 years of conflict with actual military struggle in its proper sense over a 10 years period.
> How long did it take the vietnamese,chinese ect to win there war against occupation forces..?
> We have not even reached half way yet compared to the above.



Yes true , they were willing to fight and fought their own war , they rose up to the ocassion and fought for it not sacrificing other country men for their cause. Again and again I repeat , the conflict in Kashmir is not even close to the likes of major regional conflicts elsewhere so comparing with them is a moot point when you are lazy to fight in the first place .



> Becauce where brothers and one nation......pakistan can only be complete once kashmir is part of the pakistan federation.



Hmmmm, whatever , let Pakistan do whatever it wants with AJK who cares whether it is complete or incomplete. Maybe you should say this to Pakistani establishment who sadly dont share your view.

I think the major break came during the Parliment attack which resulted in India mobilizing its troops for a full fledged war, something whaich Pakistan tried to avoid( and never expected) but keep India engaging through insurgency ,but after operation Parakram saner minds there realised that a full blown conflict is simply not worth it especially in this nuclear age.



> Choice.......i also have the choice to fight for my freedom.



Yup fight for it , I dont think you shall be quiet successfull , history supports me , anyways all the best to ya.



> The thing that prevented the palestinians from having hamas since the invasion of israel is the same reason kashmir did not have a hamas like organisation over the same period.
> The kashmir freedom struggle was drawn down to see if the peace process could work and also the 9/11 attacks was not a good time to be backing military movements.....things have changed.



Only wishes , eat this Pakistan has realised that they will not simply keep fighting for your cost , their cost benifit analysis does not allow them also they have several problems in their backyard . Thy have realised that it is best to maintain status quo and live with peace. It s a winwin situation for both Pakistan and India , we get to keep IK, Pakistan gets to keep AJK plus we can divert our resources to other fruitful things and ordinary Kashmiris can study , eat and sleep happily.



> How wrong you are....it just started to get going before the 9/11 attacks and then the "peace process" kicked in



Dont blame 9/11 for your failure , insurgency was at its peak agood decade ago and all you mentioned happened before but failed to achieve nothing.



> You have had your chance to be fair and reach some sort of an accord with the pak govt.....mushy offered you almost everything including putting the UN resolution to one side......india did move inch.



Nope completely wrong, we have moved from claiming AJK to recognizing LOC as border.


> t shows to all of us that the only way to get kashmir is through a military struggle.



Whatever bring em on I say.


----------



## UnitedPak

@AK56

This is about Kashmiris being oppressed and refused their freedom. Historically Kashmir, Punjab and Sindh have always been Muslim majority states with a distinct identity different from the rest of Indians. Kashmiris are living in a police state, and its our responsibility to make their voices heard.

Not to mention how their land is currently being used to threaten the rest of Pakistan with threats of blocking the major rivers to Pakistan.
If you were in any doubt before, just understand that this is a major survival issue for Pakistan. We cant afford to let this go.

One way or another, Kashmir will be settled. Either the UN can decide to enforce the vote they promised 60 years ago, or we fund more separatist movements in India so Kashmiri separatists are the least of their problems. (Assam, Khalistan, Mao etc)

I am not the one to throw around religious fundi remarks, but Muslims are being oppressed by a foreign Government (hope you werent in doubt about that), its our duty to help them out especially when they are our own people. Fighting is Fighting, through a 700 000 troop army or Militants. There is no "unjustified" way of doing this.
If anything is Unjustified, its the mass graves they find in Kashmir, the Rapes and Murders of women, and the terrorising of the population.

Regards.


----------



## Vinod2070

UnitedPak, i depends on what history one is looking at. For you, history may start at a certain point, but others may have much longer memories.

The history of the lands that you talked about is much older than the history of Islam and it was a glorious history.

There may be people who want these areas to revert to that pristine (as per their thinking) glory before these lands were invaded by invaders coming fro the west.


----------



## genmirajborgza786

Asim Aquil said:


> AJK is not Pakistani territory to begin with.
> 
> Pakistan should let it go for the sake of settling the Kashmir issue with India.



salam sir
NO SIR with respect
sorry chief but the above mentioned theory is highly dangerous for the very sovereignty of Pakistan my family had fought for Pakistan and we saw '71 with our own wet eyes so no more land let going for Pakistan no never Pakistan from makran to Karakorum be it Punjab, Sind, Baluchistan , NWFP , Northern Areas & Azad Kashmir , ( Pakistani control area in siechen near the actual ground position line ) all of the 880,000 sq km is here to stay .

Pakistan Zindabad


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## Vinod2070

The time for redrawing of borders is gone. The earlier it is realized, the better it would be for all.

Pakistan is in no position to force a border change and India is not interested. The realistic option is to give Kashmiris the autonomy they want without trying to change the borders.


----------



## genmirajborgza786

Asim Aquil said:


> That is debatable.
> 
> The Northern Areas were forcibly occupied. The people living there are more or less Pashtun than Kashmiri. Historical Kashmir and Northern Areas never had anything common.
> 
> Anyway, we'll put that case up with the Kashmiris. Let them decide.



no sir, but how can one let them do that pakistan needs the border with China i mean this is not only about land but it is also one the most important strategic links that Pakistan has how can one let them decide what if ( God forbid) they decide to leave, what then ? Pakistan have only to lose & nothing to gain it will be a total strategical disaster.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

> The only "rights" we want are the ones promised to us by the UN.



Indeed feasible if Pakistan withdraws its troop as per the UN resolution.

The UN resolution has been reproduced many a time on this forum.

Read it.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

The people of Northern Areas are not Kashmiris per se, even if they were a part of the Kashmir Riyasat,

The religious affiliation was with Afghanistan, Central Asia, Kashghar, Yarkand of China and Kashmir. The first person to spread Islam in this area was Syed Shah Afzal of Badakhshan, Afghanistan. He entered the state of Yasen and spread Islam among the people of Yasen in 725 AD. The people of Yasen were the first to embrace Ismailia Islam in this region. Shah Salim spread Islam in Hunza in 1800-21. The people of Tangir/Darel embraced Sunni Islam after 1890. Syed Mohammad Noor Bux came to Khapoolo Baltistan in 1464, and preached the Noor Buxi Islam. Syed Ali Tusi and Syed Nasir Tusi came to Baltistan, and spread Shia Islam in 17th century. The last people of this area to embrace Sunni Islam were the people of Chilas, in 1868.

The ratio of different Islamic sects in this region is: 45 per cent Shia, 25 per cent Sunni, 20 per cent Ismailia and 10 per cent Noor Buxi. Sunnis are in majority in Dardistan (Diamar), Shia in this area and Nagir, Noor Buxi in Baltistan (Ghanchhe, Khapoolo) and Ismailia in Brooshaal (Yasen, Hunza, Pooyaal, Ishkomen and Goopes).


----------



## UnitedPak

Vinod2070 said:


> UnitedPak, i depends on what history one is looking at. For you, history may start at a certain point, but others may have much longer memories.
> 
> The history of the lands that you talked about is much older than the history of Islam and it was a glorious history.
> 
> There may be people who want these areas to revert to that pristine (as per their thinking) glory before these lands were invaded by invaders coming fro the west.



One shouldnt have to go back 1300 years to allow Kashmiris to vote. That was a very nonsensical statement. Kashmir is Muslim majority and you are proposing looking at their pre Islamic history to settle this?


----------



## Vinod2070

UnitedPak said:


> One shouldnt have to go back 1300 years to allow Kashmiris to vote. That was a very nonsensical statement. Kashmir is Muslim majority and you are proposing looking at their pre Islamic history to settle this?



First you claimed the "historical" Muslim nature of the lands. For many Indians this is a result of forced invasions and hence not a valid basis for any decision of this nature. We remember the cruel murder of Guru Teg Bahadur for trying to stop the forced conversions in Kashmir by Aurangzeb.

Then if India can have 150 million Muslims even after partition on the basis of religion, there is no reason a "Muslim majority" Kashmir (which has a very significant Hindu and Budhdhist populatio too) can't be a part of India.


----------



## UnitedPak

Vinod2070 said:


> First you claimed the "historical" Muslim nature of the lands. For many Indians this is a result of forced invasions and hence not a valid basis for any decision of this nature. We remember the cruel murder of Guru Teg Bahadur for trying to stop the forced conversions in Kashmir by Aurangzeb.
> 
> Then if India can have 150 million Muslims even after partition on the basis of religion, there is no reason a "Muslim majority" Kashmir (which has a very significant Hindu and Budhdhist populatio too) can't be a part of India.



I should have known you still hold a grudge over something which happened 1300 years ago. The North West of the Subcontinent is Muslim. You should seriously learn to deal with it.
And *they are still Muslim*, which is why its important in todays Politics.

Do you realise the absurdity of holding a grudge against something which didnt happen to you? I get the impression that you think you own the people of Kashmir since you are so absolutely devastated by their conversion to Islam.

If you are hoping for them to convert back to Buddhism/Hinduism, I wouldnt hold by breath on it.

These events are 1300 years old. Let it go.


----------



## Vinod2070

I didn't say that I hold these views but there are people who may justifiably hold these views.

Don't we hear Muslims talking of their "historic" Caliphate empire? And they are talking about areas forcibly occupied by Arabs!

the Indians who think so are only talking about their own lands not far flung occupied areas.

But yes I agree with you that partition can not and should not be undone. Just no more bloody partitions based on hatreds and separatism.


----------



## IceCold

dabong1 said:


> A cross between hamas and hezbollha is what is needed in kashmir.
> Targeted killing of indian occupation officals in kashmir and attacks on indian proper are what are needed.
> A few well placed attacks on the indian military are the call of the day.
> 
> The indians can back and fund suicide missions in pakistan,i am sure we can do the same.



I dont know about the hamas and hezbolla thing but the rest can surely be done and should have been done, too bad the gop is too pussy to do anything, infact i was amazed to see the attitude of the parties pre election, So much shift in the foreign policy made me wonder, what the bloodly hell are we going towards? Damnn it


----------



## Vinod2070

Why don't you two gentlemen enrole for this noble task at the nearest LET recruitment centre. Or may be get your brothers/sons to join them.

Are you waiting for someone else to do it? May be some poor youth from far flung areas!


----------



## IceCold

Vinod2070 said:


> Why don't you two gentlemen enrole for this noble task at the nearest LET recruitment centre. Or may be get your brothers/sons to join them.
> 
> Are you waiting for someone else to do it? May be some poor youth from far flung areas!



Thanks for the unwanted suggestion.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

If being Mo.slem is the criteria for the whole issue, then there are lots of Mos.lems in India.

Are you suggesting they should all go to Pakistan?

The Indian Mo.slems do not share your view!

A flawed argument.


----------



## dabong1

Vinod2070 said:


> Why don't you two gentlemen enrole for this noble task at the nearest LET recruitment centre. Or may be get your brothers/sons to join them.!



Do my friends,cousins and uncle count..?




Vinod2070 said:


> Are you waiting for someone else to do it? May be some poor youth from far flung areas!



Well my uncle was born in IOK and my cousins where from AJK,all educated and well to do.
My friends from the UK fought for the taliban and one of them did a tour of kashmir.......they i will agree "where from a flung areas"....but two of them had degrees.


----------



## dabong1

indiapakistanfriendship said:


> As I said its your call, the UN does not seem to care , again its your call , frankly we don't care..



But you do agree that UN wants a vote on the issue.
Let democracy prosper.....what are you scared off.
If india is that good and caring then surely the people of kashmir will be in favour of staying with india......wont they..?





indiapakistanfriendship said:


> A stupid rule and an archaic one, I dont give horse crap as to what Nehru and his foolish policy has to say..



Okay whatever....but it disproves your point.




indiapakistanfriendship said:


> maybe you would have been happy if we changed the demographics of the region like the way Chinese do to Tibet...



Go ahead....you have scared all the pandits out of kashmir.



indiapakistanfriendship said:


> Anyways I dont plan to buy land in Kashmir , too far away from home but I can visit srinagar, go for trekking or mountain climbing in ladhak and I dont need your permission do I?



you go anytime you want.....just as long its not in a indian military uniform.





indiapakistanfriendship said:


> Its a huge tract of land with lots of water flowing and we dont mind spending millions or keeping a million men on standby , we have the money, the resource . Its my tax money and I am happy to spend it.



good....carry on spending 




indiapakistanfriendship said:


> Before thumping your chest those good men and billions spent are in response to Pakistani millitary threat of invasion so dont dream that your Jihad has achieved it. Lets see where your jihad heads the moment support from Pakistan ceases..



Pakistans support will never end.....you can wish though







indiapakistanfriendship said:


> Also India has upped its ante aginst the insurgency starting from fencing the border to actively engaging the millitants and their support infrastructure so 9/11 would not have made mush of a differnce....



A couple of hours of shelling and those fences are bye bye.




indiapakistanfriendship said:


> Nope a lots of Indians are happy so are a lot of Pakistanis , why should we die for your cause which is dead anyways.
> Yes true , they were willing to fight and fought their own war , they rose up to the ocassion and fought for it not sacrificing other country men for their cause. Again and again I repeat , the conflict in Kashmir is not even close to the likes of major regional conflicts elsewhere so comparing with them is a moot point when you are lazy to fight in the first place
> Hmmmm, whatever , let Pakistan do whatever it wants with AJK who cares whether it is complete or incomplete. Maybe you should say this to Pakistani establishment who sadly dont share your view.
> I think the major break came during the Parliment attack which resulted in India mobilizing its troops for a full fledged war, something whaich Pakistan tried to avoid( and never expected) but keep India engaging through insurgency ,but after operation Parakram saner minds there realised that a full blown conflict is simply not worth it especially in this nuclear age......



I just hope all your wishes come true....thats what they are airy fairy wishes...keeping fooling yourself into thinking that pakistan does not care for kashmir.





indiapakistanfriendship said:


> Yup fight for it , I dont think you shall be quiet successfull , history supports me , anyways all the best to ya.......



Thanyou for support





indiapakistanfriendship said:


> Only wishes , eat this Pakistan has realised that they will not simply keep fighting for your cost , their cost benifit analysis does not allow them also they have several problems in their backyard . Thy have realised that it is best to maintain status quo and live with peace. It s a winwin situation for both Pakistan and India , we get to keep IK, Pakistan gets to keep AJK plus we can divert our resources to other fruitful things and ordinary Kashmiris can study , eat and sleep happily........



Thats what you want......india keeps IOK and pakistan keeps AJK and LOC as a border.

Thats not what we want.......you want to keep the status quo we dont.




indiapakistanfriendship said:


> Nope completely wrong, we have moved from claiming AJK to recognizing LOC as border.
> 
> 
> Whatever bring em on I say.



You had your chance to reach a settlement with mushy but your arrogance got the better of you.......taste the bitter friuts now.


----------



## UnitedPak

Salim said:


> If being Mo.slem is the criteria for the whole issue, then there are lots of Mos.lems in India.
> 
> Are you suggesting they should all go to Pakistan?
> 
> The Indian Mo.slems do not share your view!
> 
> A flawed argument.



If you had read anything in this thread you would know its not.

Firstly its about what the Kashmiris *themselves* want. 
Secondly, the water issues for the rest of Pakistanis. 
Thirdly, A Muslim majority state will suffer in India. Not that 1984 and 2002 didnt show the world what India does to its minorities, but you have already turned Kashmir into a police state.

And why dont you write "Muslims" instead of evading the word censor with a questionable spelling? Really shows the level of maturity of some of our members.


----------



## Vinod2070

dabong1 said:


> Do my friends,cousins and uncle count..?



They do but two will be counted as one. 



dabong1 said:


> Well my uncle was born in IOK and my cousins where from AJK,all educated and well to do.
> My friends from the UK fought for the taliban and one of them did a tour of kashmir.......they i will agree "where from a flung areas"....but two of them had degrees.



Illustrious family, I will say. Does the British police know of the activities of this Jehadi in their midst? As a law abiding citizen, you must inform them.

Did your friend come back safe an sound and in one piece and not as a handful of gravel?


----------



## indiapakistanfriendship

> But you do agree that UN wants a vote on the issue.
> Let democracy prosper.....what are you scared off.



UN wants a vote and in this day and age who gives crap to what UN says . The days of UN as an effective political institution is over. 

Yup let democracy prosper .. why not Kashmiris here are voting so let it prosper better.

If according to your argument democracy should prosper then every Indian has a right to vote on the issue , its after all our backyard.



> If india is that good and caring then surely the people of kashmir will be in favour of staying with india......wont they..?



When was the last time muslims were happy about being under someone( refer to asim's post)..



> Okay whatever....but it disproves your point.



It disproves nothing , whether I can own land in Kashmir or not is immaterial , I have rights over it as equal as rights over Bihar or Andamans.



> Go ahead....you have scared all the pandits out of kashmir.



Nope we dont do cultural genocide like China does . Hmm when did we scare the pandits out?



> you go anytime you want.....just as long its not in a indian military uniform.



Yup I shall go anytime I will want.. Uniform? Not necessary there are plenty there already.



> good....carry on spending



Sure , call me arrogant but we have the cash and we shall spend, no if's and but's about it.


> Pakistans support will never end.....you can wish though



Its happening as we talk right now ... prove me other wise.



> I just hope all your wishes come true....thats what they are airy fairy wishes...keeping fooling yourself into thinking that pakistan does not care for kashmir.



Pakistan will never risk a full blown war for your sake anymore . period. 



> Thats what you want......india keeps IOK and pakistan keeps AJK and LOC as a border.
> 
> Thats not what we want.......you want to keep the status quo we dont.



Err when was the last time anyone from both the side cared about what you want.



> You had your chance to reach a settlement with mushy but your arrogance got the better of you.......taste the bitter friuts now.



BS anyone wishing that India will let go of IK lives in fools paradise.. war or negotiations it shall never happen, the price is simply too high ...

Bitter fruits? Yeah yeah whatever .. boolocks and rhetoric will never yeild any fruits in the first place ..


----------



## dabong1

Vinod2070 said:


> Illustrious family, I will say. Does the British police know of the activities of this Jehadi in their midst? As a law abiding citizen, you must inform them.?



There was bbc tv programme about one my friends....so yeah i would expect the british govt knew about it.
And my other two friend had newspaper articles about them in the national press




Vinod2070 said:


> Did your friend come back safe an sound and in one piece and not as a handful of gravel?



One got caught by the NA and then was released after his brother flew from the UK with a BBC crew and paid a ransom.
The other two died fighting in afghanistan.
My two cousins wher killed in kashmir but others have returned safe and well.

I hope that stops your comments about me sending my own family/friends to the battlefeild first before asking others to join........


----------



## Vinod2070

dabong1 said:


> There was bbc tv programme about one my friends....so yeah i would expect the british govt knew about it.
> And my other two friend had newspaper articles about them in the national press



Good show.

So are they in Gitmo now? 



dabong1 said:


> One got caught by the NA and then was released after his brother flew from the UK with a BBC crew and paid a ransom.
> The other two died fighting in afghanistan.
> My two cousins wher killed in kashmir but others have returned safe and well.
> 
> *I hope that stops your comments about me sending my own family/friends to the battlefeild first before asking others to join*........



That was always a second choice. The first choice of course would be the person demanding continued violence and suffering for other human beings. So there...


----------



## Flintlock

dabong1 said:


> One got caught by the NA and then was released after his brother flew from the UK with a BBC crew and paid a ransom.
> The other two died fighting in afghanistan.
> My two cousins wher killed in kashmir but others have returned safe and well.
> 
> I hope that stops your comments about me sending my own family/friends to the battlefeild first before asking others to join........



Holy moly....if all this is true, then you better watch what you type on open forums....


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

> Do my friends,cousins and uncle count..?



My experience with the terrorist, including signal intercepts, is that the unemployed and those in jail and promised amnesty for a tour of J&K counts.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

> My two cousins wher killed in kashmir but others have returned safe and well.



Dabong,

Purely from the academic standpoint can we know the social, economic, religious background, the motivation and payment for sustenance of your relatives who were killed and who escaped?

Why did some die and why did some live?

What was the tenure?

And if you are fro such a _jihadi_ family, why are you not there?

Purely academic since it fascinates that people are ready to be die for an abstract cause while other loll in the background merely to cheer and exhort in the name of religion!!


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Salim said:


> Purely academic since it fascinates that people are ready to be die for an abstract cause while other loll in the background merely to cheer and exhort in the name of religion!!



But thats the case in almost all freedom movements - and the "cheering" is over more than just religion Salim, you know that.


----------



## roadrunner

1) Northern Areas are not part of Kashmir. They are Pakistani areas

2) Azad Kashmir is part of Kashmir and is independent of Pakistan, so Pakistan doesn't really control any part of Kashmir. 

3) The water supply to the Indus is only partly through Kashmir. The Kabul River is the source of some of the Indus as it enters Pakistan, as is the Swat River and Gilgit. Even if for some reason water supplies were turned off from Kashmir (and the Tibetans or Chinese could simply divert the supply away from Kashmir if they wanted to, as a favour to Pakistan), there'd be enough of a water supply from the other river flowing through the Indus Valley.


----------



## Energon

Nobody is "turning off" the water supply to anywhere. India would be foolish to think that there is any benefit in turning Pakistani agricultural areas inert by diverting the water supply. This would cause a humanitarian disaster of epic proportions which will only spill over the border. Likewise, China has far too much stake in a good economic relationship with India to do the same. Each party will build dams to establish reservoirs and ensure a steady flow of water to desired areas in both nations.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> But thats the case in almost all freedom movements - and the "cheering" is over more than just religion Salim, you know that.



I know it and I pity the people who die and nothing happens!

Only the fat cats back home in air conditioned comfort profit!!


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

roadrunner said:


> 1) Northern Areas are not part of Kashmir. They are Pakistani areas
> 
> 2) Azad Kashmir is part of Kashmir and is independent of Pakistan, so Pakistan doesn't really control any part of Kashmir.
> 
> 3) The water supply to the Indus is only partly through Kashmir. The Kabul River is the source of some of the Indus as it enters Pakistan, as is the Swat River and Gilgit. Even if for some reason water supplies were turned off from Kashmir (and the Tibetans or Chinese could simply divert the supply away from Kashmir if they wanted to, as a favour to Pakistan), there'd be enough of a water supply from the other river flowing through the Indus Valley.



Absolutely right!

Howver, one has to check the cusecs of water that flows!


----------



## ejaz007

The first question to the solution of Kashmir problem should be about the political will of the two countries political leadership. This problem shall not be solved unless the two countries leadership rise above stated policies and tackle the issue on humanitarian basis. The question is does the two countries have that leadership that can rise above their countries stated policies. I know Mr. Musharaf put forward a lot of proposals and according to a lot of observers this damaged Pakistan's cause. However these were not reciprocated by Indian Leadership. Here lies the problem. Unless and untill India produces a leader with such chrisma and ability to rise to the occassion of addressing the issue on political and more importantly humanitarian basis the issue won't be resolved.
In the near future I don't see that happening.


----------



## IceCold

Energon said:


> Nobody is "turning off" the water supply to anywhere. India would be foolish to think that there is any benefit in turning Pakistani agricultural areas inert by diverting the water supply. This would cause a humanitarian disaster of epic proportions which will only spill over the border. Likewise, China has far too much stake in a good economic relationship with India to do the same. Each party will build dams to establish reservoirs and ensure a steady flow of water to desired areas in both nations.



Building dams over the water in kashmir is in itself a violation of the indus water treaty. If india can violate one thing what makes you so sure that it wont violate another?
And besides its not about running pakistan dry, its about the leverage that india will get over pakistan, a leverage that india could bring at any time on the negotiating table to force its will on pakistan.
One has to be pragmatic addressing these issues and that is exactly what pakistan is doing at the moment.


----------



## bhangra12345

IceCold said:


> *Building dams over the water in kashmir is in itself a violation of the indus water treaty*. If india can violate one thing what makes you so sure that it wont violate another?
> And besides its not about running pakistan dry, its about the leverage that india will get over pakistan, a leverage that india could bring at any time on the negotiating table to force its will on pakistan.
> One has to be pragmatic addressing these issues and that is exactly what pakistan is doing at the moment.



Nope it is not. Pakistan *"thought"* that it was a violation, but the judge "decided" it was not. 
The judge was agreed to by both the countries.
So what violation are you are talking about?

Please dont give some abstract and from your thoughts answers, give me the clause and subclause of the IWT which we violated and where?, then let us discuss. If you need, get yourselves some lawyers.


link


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Pakistan's objections relate to the deign of the dam, not the dam itself, and apparently Pakistan has not objected to several other dams that have been constructed.

From Wiki, a brief overview:


> After construction began in 1999, Pakistan claimed some design parameters of Baglihar project violated the Indus Water Treaty (full text) of 1960. Indus Water Treaty had provided India with exclusive control to three eastern rivers while Pakistan with exclusive control to three western rivers, including Chenab River. However it contained provisions for India to establish river-run power projects with limited reservoir capacity and flow control needed for feasible power generation. Availing the provision India established several run-of-the-river projects most of which were not objected by Pakistan. *However in case of Baglihar and Kishan-Ganga projects, Pakistan claimed that some design parameters were too lax than needed for feasible power generation and provide India with excessive ability to accelerate, decelerate or block flow of river, thus may give India a strategic leverage in times of tension or war.*


----------



## Vinod2070

roadrunner said:


> 1) Northern Areas are not part of Kashmir. They are Pakistani areas
> 
> 2) Azad Kashmir is part of Kashmir and is independent of Pakistan, so Pakistan doesn't really control any part of Kashmir.
> 
> 3) The water supply to the Indus is only partly through Kashmir. The Kabul River is the source of some of the Indus as it enters Pakistan, as is the Swat River and Gilgit. Even if for some reason water supplies were turned off from Kashmir (and the Tibetans or *Chinese could simply divert the supply away from Kashmir if they wanted to, as a favour to Pakistan*), there'd be enough of a water supply from the other river flowing through the Indus Valley.



The trust that Pakistanis seem to have in China that it would do anything for them is so touching. I am not really sure it is based on any kind of facts. Of course the verbiage is there but what is the real substance? Will China get into war with India (or even US?) for Pakistan's sake? Is that what is believed in Pakistan?

I have heard comments from a highly respected Chinese poster on WAB (AM/NEO will know that I am talking about OOE) that China will fight India to the last Pakistani. I am just curious how this is looked at by the Pakistanis.


----------



## roadrunner

Vinod2070 said:


> The trust that Pakistanis seem to have in China that it would do anything for them is so touching. I am not really sure it is based on any kind of facts. Of course the verbiage is there but what is the real substance? Will China get into war with India (or even US?) for Pakistan's sake? Is that what is believed in Pakistan?
> 
> I have heard comments from a highly respected Chinese poster on WAB (AM/NEO will know that I am talking about OOE) that China will fight India to the last Pakistani. I am just curious how this is looked at by the Pakistanis.



Well, why not? If horticultual genocide can be committed by India or Kashir in Pakistan (and it only would affect Punjab to an extent with a couple of rivers - the Indus would be unaffected to a degree), why would such a genocide not be acceptable for India? It would make such an act more possible, and the Ganges could be dried up at will.


----------



## Vinod2070

roadrunner said:


> Well, why not? If horticultual genocide can be committed by India or Kashir in Pakistan (and it only would affect Punjab to an extent with a couple of rivers - the Indus would be unaffected to a degree), why would such a genocide not be acceptable for India? It would make such an act more possible, and the Ganges could be dried up at will.



Of course, we understand that it is a hypothetical discussion. I don't believe anyone in India wants to do any such thing.

The question here is not what is technically or morally possible. The question is: Do Pakistanis believe that China will take such a step for them if that means getting into a war with India (or even USA)? 

What is the basis of such a belief? Are you absolutely convinced that you are not being used as a tool to contain India? Or may be you are a perfectly willing tool?


----------



## indiapakistanfriendship

> Of course, we understand that it is a hypothetical discussion. I don't believe anyone in India wants to do any such thing.
> 
> The question here is not what is technically or morally possible. The question is: Do Pakistanis believe that China will take such a step for them if that means getting into a war with India (or even USA)?
> 
> What is the basis of such a belief? Are you absolutely convinced that you are not being used as a tool to contain India? Or may be you are a perfectly willing tool?



Vinod I think this has been argued to death in another thread dedicated for water issues between India and Pakistan.


----------



## waz

Asim Aquil said:


> AJK is not Pakistani territory to begin with.
> 
> Pakistan should let it go for the sake of settling the Kashmir issue with India.



Bro You do realise that after Azad Kashmir lies the federal capital and the strategic heartland? Its mountainous terrain and warlike people have always acted as natural barrier to Indian incursions. Giving the region away will cut Pakistans strategic depth massively, something they can ill afford to do as they already are at a disadvantage against India in this regard. Also letting go off the region will that mean the dismantling of Mangla dam what about the Neelum-Jhelum hydroelectric dam that is being built in Azad Kashmir? Pakistan will not let go of this land and has never had any intention to and nor do the people want to be apart from it as they very much consider themselves part of the fatherland. 

Pakistans federal government also forbids independence parties from standing in the AJK elections which is clear sign that Pakistan wants the region to remain with it now and the future. 




Asim Aquil said:


> That is debatable.
> 
> The Northern Areas were forcibly occupied. The people living there are more or less Pashtun than Kashmiri. Historical Kashmir and Northern Areas never had anything common.
> 
> Anyway, we'll put that case up with the Kashmiris. Let them decide.



They are not Pakhtun at all and are a completely different people of Dardic origin who speak khowar, shina and balti. There has been tension between Pakhtun settlers in and the Northern people in the past.


----------



## Vinod2070

indiapakistanfriendship said:


> Vinod I think this has been argued to death in another thread dedicated for water issues between India and Pakistan.



Thx. May me I have not seen that thread.

Anyway I am not discussing the water issue here. I wanted to get an understanding of how and why Pakistanis trust that China will put it's security or growth at risk for them.


----------



## waz

ak56 said:


> Why do you think so.
> 
> The bangladesis supported the Indian army to fight against their own mother country to get the so called freedom.
> 
> *But did the kashmiri's fight for us during 1965 or 1971. They were just mute spectators when our brave soldiers sacrificed their lives because they thought they are saving kashmiris. *This is one more reason why we should stop bothering about the Kashmiris. Let them decide their own fate, whether good or bad.





Are you talking about the people in the valley etc [occupied Kahsmir] or the people of Azad Kashmir? The men of Azad Kashmir and their exploits in battle are legendry......Where do you think the Azad Kashmir regiment came from? You should read about their valour in 65 and 71.


In the news recently you might have heard the story of this man from AZAD KASHMIR





Siphai Maqbool Hussain premieres at Army Auditorium

* Play narrates true story of Pakistani soldier taken hostage in 1965 War 
* Hussain was incarcerated in Indian jail for 40 years, subjected to torture by his captors

By Sajjad Malik

RAWALPINDI: Siphai Maqbool Hussain, a play that narrates the true story of a Pakistani soldier, Maqbool Hussain, premiered on Tuesday at the Army Auditorium.

*The premiere of the play was attended by a large number of people from all walks of life. Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Ashfaq Kayani, the chief guest of the event, applauded Hussains story for its portrayal of his valour*.

Co-produced by the Inter-Services Public Relations and Interflow Communications Limited, Siphai Maqbool Hussain touched the hearts of the spectators, as the play delineated the suffering and inhumane treatment of Hussain and the cruelty of his captors, who brutally cut his tongue.

*40 years: Hussain, who was injured and taken prisoner by the Indian Army in the 1965 war, spent 40 years in Indian jails. He was released as a civilian prisoner in 2005. During his imprisonment, Hussain was subjected to terrible human rights abuses.*

*Hailing from Azad Kashmir*, and engaged to Naseeran before joining army, Hussains *aging mother kept waiting for his return*. When she died, Hussains mother was buried at the entrance of the village at her request, so that she could meet her son when he returned.

Haider Imam Rizvi directed the play, while the cast included Raja Haider, Batin Farooqi, Riaz Mastana, Hassan Niazi, Reeja and Ghazala Butt. Shafqat Amanat Ali Khan sung the plays theme song. Siphai Maqbool Hussain will also be telecast on Pakistan Television as a weekly serial.

*As the story unfolds, Hussain, bearing army No 335139, is shown being hit by enemy fire on the Line of Control at the start of the 1965 war. Subsequently, he is taken prisoner by the Indian army, who deny him Prisoner of War status. Trained in the traditions of the Pakistan Army, Hussain faces all the suffering and refuses to share any information about his country with his captors  so much so that when they cut out his tongue, he writes Pakistan Zindabad (long live Pakistan) in his own blood. Hussain also becomes mentally ill during his four decades of incarceration.*

*
When the real Hussain was brought on stage at the end of the performance, he had a blank look on his face and was unable to recognise the army chief, who went on stage and shook hands with him*.


Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


While they are men like him around Pakistan will never die.


----------



## indiapakistanfriendship

> Thx. May me I have not seen that thread.



Sure no problem Vinod here's the link. The debate was regarding water resource and also includes arguments on the length Chinese hall go.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate.../10584-pakistan-survival-without-kashmir.html


----------



## indiapakistanfriendship

> Are you talking about the people in the valley etc [occupied Kahsmir] or the people of Azad Kashmir?



I think he is referrinng to people on the Indian side of Kashmir. Operation Grnd slam and Gibraltars primary players were supposed to Kashmiris on Indian side, it was assumed that they would rise as they did during 1947 , however it never materialized.


----------



## roadrunner

waz said:


> They are not Pakhtun at all and are a completely different people of Dardic origin who speak khowar, shina and balti. There has been tension between Pakhtun settlers in and the Northern people in the past.



Waz or AAquil, I'm not sure of the ethnic composition, but surely it's irrelevant. Should the Dardic lands of Northern Afghanistan be part of Kashmir because they are Dards (a very broad term, perhaps without meaning). Or should Eastern and Southern Afghanistan be part of NWFP because of racial/cultural similarities? 

What's important are treaties, history etc. Whether the racial/cultural makeup of lands is "Iranic" or "Dardic" doesn't matter one bit. From what I know of the Northern Areas situation, the Dogra Armies had invaded and forced the annexation of the Northern Areas as part of Kashmir princely state. Prior to this time, I don't think there any evidence of the Northern Areas as being part of Kashmir. 

the literature suggests, Kashmiris are just one of a number of ethnic groups living in the area - Baltis, Shains, Yashkuns, Moghals, Kashmiries, Pathans, Ladakhis and Turks speaking the dialects of Balti, Brushaski, Khawer, Wakhi, Turki, Tibeti, Pushto, Urdu and Persian.


----------



## roadrunner

Vinod2070 said:


> Of course, we understand that it is a hypothetical discussion. I don't believe anyone in India wants to do any such thing.
> 
> The question here is not what is technically or morally possible. The question is: Do Pakistanis believe that China will take such a step for them if that means getting into a war with India (or even USA)?
> 
> What is the basis of such a belief? Are you absolutely convinced that you are not being used as a tool to contain India? Or may be you are a perfectly willing tool?



India would not get into a war with China..it learnt that in 1962 not to do so.. Even if China somehow turned off the tap to the rivers.


----------



## Vinod2070

roadrunner said:


> India would not get into a war with China..it learnt that in 1962 not to do so.. Even if China somehow turned off the tap to the rivers.



You presume too much.

India will not start it of course but will give back as good as it gets.

1962 was a different story and the Chinese know that even if you don't. They have had many recent experiences which tell them that it is not the same unprepared/credulous India they are dealing with now.


----------



## indiapakistanfriendship

> India would not get into a war with China..it learnt that in 1962 not to do so..



India shall never wage an offensive war with China nor will China wage one, give the terrain which shall offer maximum advantage to the defender.



> Even if China somehow turned off the tap to the rivers.



If China turns off the tap India shall not go for war as most of the water flowing from China ends up in Pakistan ...


----------



## ak56

waz said:


> Are you talking about the people in the valley etc [occupied Kahsmir] or the people of Azad Kashmir? The men of Azad Kashmir and their exploits in battle are legendry......Where do you think the Azad Kashmir regiment came from? You should read about their valour in 65 and 71.
> 
> 
> In the news recently you might have heard the story of this man from AZAD KASHMIR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Siphai Maqbool Hussain premieres at Army Auditorium
> 
> * Play narrates true story of Pakistani soldier taken hostage in 1965 War
> * Hussain was incarcerated in Indian jail for 40 years, subjected to torture by his captors
> 
> By Sajjad Malik
> 
> RAWALPINDI: Siphai Maqbool Hussain, a play that narrates the true story of a Pakistani soldier, Maqbool Hussain, premiered on Tuesday at the Army Auditorium.
> 
> *The premiere of the play was attended by a large number of people from all walks of life. Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Ashfaq Kayani, the chief guest of the event, applauded Hussains story for its portrayal of his valour*.
> 
> Co-produced by the Inter-Services Public Relations and Interflow Communications Limited, Siphai Maqbool Hussain touched the hearts of the spectators, as the play delineated the suffering and inhumane treatment of Hussain and the cruelty of his captors, who brutally cut his tongue.
> 
> *40 years: Hussain, who was injured and taken prisoner by the Indian Army in the 1965 war, spent 40 years in Indian jails. He was released as a civilian prisoner in 2005. During his imprisonment, Hussain was subjected to terrible human rights abuses.*
> 
> *Hailing from Azad Kashmir*, and engaged to Naseeran before joining army, Hussains *aging mother kept waiting for his return*. When she died, Hussains mother was buried at the entrance of the village at her request, so that she could meet her son when he returned.
> 
> Haider Imam Rizvi directed the play, while the cast included Raja Haider, Batin Farooqi, Riaz Mastana, Hassan Niazi, Reeja and Ghazala Butt. Shafqat Amanat Ali Khan sung the plays theme song. Siphai Maqbool Hussain will also be telecast on Pakistan Television as a weekly serial.
> 
> *As the story unfolds, Hussain, bearing army No 335139, is shown being hit by enemy fire on the Line of Control at the start of the 1965 war. Subsequently, he is taken prisoner by the Indian army, who deny him Prisoner of War status. Trained in the traditions of the Pakistan Army, Hussain faces all the suffering and refuses to share any information about his country with his captors  so much so that when they cut out his tongue, he writes Pakistan Zindabad (long live Pakistan) in his own blood. Hussain also becomes mentally ill during his four decades of incarceration.*
> 
> *
> When the real Hussain was brought on stage at the end of the performance, he had a blank look on his face and was unable to recognise the army chief, who went on stage and shook hands with him*.
> 
> 
> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
> 
> 
> While they are men like him around Pakistan will never die.




Well, how much terrotory did we redeem during 1965 or 1971. Not more than350 square miles.
Azad kashmir is what was formed/captured during 1947-1950 when it was nobodys land.

Unlike the infidals Mukti bahini fauj-that "liberated" the dirty part of Pakistan, who lost the entire East Pakistan.


----------



## waz

ak56 said:


> Well, how much terrotory did we redeem during 1965 or 1971. Not more than350 square miles.
> Azad kashmir is what was formed/captured during 1947-1950 when it was nobodys land.
> 
> Unlike the infidals Mukti bahini fauj-that "liberated" the dirty part of Pakistan, who lost the entire East Pakistan.




Hailing from the region myself, no it was not "no man's land". The region was under occupation from the Dogra Raj which was supported by the British. The Azad Kashmir militia liberated it. The amount of territory &#8220;redeemed&#8221; doesn&#8217;t even come into the argument as there was plenty of other errors in the conflicts fought. As for 65 yes the valley population did not rise up as we had expected but after the crushing they were given after the religious riots earlier who would blame them. Anyhow I&#8217;m talking more about the Azad side. 

The Mukti's did not do things by themselves and were a spent force after operation searchlight. It was the intervention of the Indian army that turned the tide. Also how could they go wrong with that part being cut off from us, hundreds of miles apart and entire population against the Pakistan army.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Asim Aquil said:


> AJK is not Pakistani territory to begin with.
> 
> Pakistan should let it go for the sake of settling the Kashmir issue with India.



Are you suggesting ceding AK to India, or something else?


----------



## waz

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Are you suggesting ceding AK to India, or something else?




No he is suggesting it becomes a separate state along with the valley, kargil etc [Muslim majorities]. But will India ever let go of the side it controls? The answer is never. Strategically why should they? They control more land, have the sources and course of Pakistan&#8217;s rivers within that land, have numerous hydroelectric projects planned and existing ones they have built etc. The area is stunning and ever so scenic and they could make a killing out of tourism as well. They are not going to roll over and say &#8220;here you go Pakistan for the sake of our eternal peace we will grant independence to our side whilst you give it to Azad Kashmir&#8221;. What is the benefit for them? They can cope with the Kashmir insurgency, as since the taps were turned off a few years back it has dwindled greatly. 

If they did grant freedom to the people what they would end up with is a state which is a Muslim majority and which will have immensely close ties with Pakistan. Many also state that if they do let go the whole region will simply go with Pakistan especially with the influence of the people in Azad Kashmir who overwhelmingly see themselves as Pakistani&#8217;s. Plain and simple they will not let go of it and heck even *Musharaf said himself that independence is NOT AN OPTION for Kashmir *and he is known to have made the greatest headway in the dispute and talked of concessions. 

SRINAGAR - Muslim separatists in Indian Kashmir on Tuesday said they were dismayed at an interview by Pakistan&#8217;s president in which he said independence for the region was not an option in peace talks with New Delhi. 
President Pervez Musharraf said in an interview to New Delhi Television made available late Monday that he was opposed to independence for Kashmir, and India and Pakistan would have to compromise over the disputed territory.
&#8220;Yes, we are against independence&#8221; for Kashmir, Musharraf told the Indian NDTV news channel.
Khaleej Times Online - Musharraf U-turn bewilders Kashmiri rebels

some more links

Musharraf opposes Kashmir independence

Pakistan willing to drop Kashmir claim - Boston.com


As for Pakistan &#8220;giving their part up&#8221; well firstly like I mentioned before strategically you will be cutting your own throat. Also more importantly what the hell are you going to call the nation then? *The &#8220;K&#8221; stands for KASHMIR! *Are we going to have a grand renaming? What is the nation going to be called after that *Paistan?*



What of the great quaid and his saying that &#8220;Kashmir is the jugular vein of Pakistan&#8221;. What of the great Alamah Iqbal who was a Kashmiri and was one of the great thinkers and motivators behind the theory of Pakistan. How would these great personalities feel that we just spat on them and &#8220;gave up&#8221; our part of Kashmir. Shall we also get into the two nation theory as well? Some say that the independence of Bangladesh showed the flaws in this, with Kashmir going I&#8217;m pretty sure that will be the final nail in the coffin. Also what guarantee do we have that with Kashmir going similar sentiments might not erupt across Pakistan? What if the Northern folk want to go their own way, the Jaye Sind movement gains ground in Sindh, the Baloch want out and FATA's tribal&#8217;s break away as they joined for a UNITED Muslim homeland. This is also the reason India dreads a break as it could give rise to similar sentiments.


----------



## bhangra12345

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Pakistan's objections relate to the deign of the dam, not the dam itself, and apparently Pakistan has not objected to several other dams that have been constructed.
> 
> From Wiki, a brief overview:


All I see are "claims", which I wrote as "thoughts".

At the very least, you agree that we do have the right to build run-of-river dams. Pakistan took its claims on Bagilar to the world bank and the neutral commissioner overuled three of its claims and made a minor modification to the fourth claim.


----------



## bhangra12345

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Are you suggesting ceding AK to India, or something else?



AM,
You cede something you have. But technically speaking, "AK" is not a part of Pakistan, which is why the nomenclature for its head is Prime Minister.
So his first statement is correct.

When you dont have something in the first place, what are you leaving? Read along this lines.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

bhangra12345 said:


> AM,
> You cede something you have. But technically speaking, "AK" is not a part of Pakistan, which is why the nomenclature for its head is Prime Minister.
> So his first statement is correct.
> 
> When you dont have something in the first place, what are you leaving? Read along this lines.



Bhangra and Waz:

Leave the technicality of AK not being part of Pakistan alone at the moment, the fact is that it falls under Pakistan's sphere of influence - our military is stationed there

"Ceding" AK was meant to imply that Pakistan would withdraw its military, which would inevitably result in India occupying the region.

Waz's explanation makes sense however, and presents a face saving solution for all sides, but specifically allows the Kashmiris to unite and govern themselves, while retaining trade and cultural ties with both India and Pakistan.


----------



## dabong1

Vinod2070 said:


> Good show.
> 
> So are they in Gitmo now? ...



You wish...





Vinod2070 said:


> That was always a second choice. The first choice of course would be the person demanding continued violence and suffering for other human beings. So there...



i have done my little bit......put how do i prove it...?

Ask salim who was in signals intercept if he has heard of the chamb sector in kashmir


----------



## dabong1

Salim said:


> Dabong,
> 
> Purely from the academic standpoint can we know the social, economic, religious background, the motivation and payment for sustenance of your relatives who were killed and who escaped?



Well my UK friends where degree holders in i think it was accounting and law.
Both where from wealthy familys and where muslims.
If you are killed then your family is given certain foodstuffs every month and few thousand rupees a month also........the ones from the UK do not get any payment of any kind to there families.



Salim said:


> Why did some die and why did some live?



Luck...gods will...fate.



Salim said:


> What was the tenure?



3 months if your in kashmir....i dont know about afghanistan




Salim said:


> And if you are fro such a _jihadi_ family, why are you not there??



I was talked out of it by an al badr commander......they want us to raise money and create awarness.
For every 1 freedom fighter on the field there are 4 people behind him to keep him going.
Who drives the cars,cooks,raises money ect.......every person can not go and fight.
Out of a million indian soilders how many actually fight and how many are behind them in supporting roles.



Salim said:


> Purely academic since it fascinates that people are ready to be die for an abstract cause while other loll in the background merely to cheer and exhort in the name of religion!!



Freedom may be an abstract idea for you but when you do not have it its aright you are willing to die for.
Make yourself happy into thinking there all brainwashed fanatics....its makes our job easier.


----------



## dabong1

Salim said:


> My experience with the terrorist, including signal intercepts, is that the unemployed and those in jail and promised amnesty for a tour of J&K counts.




I will not deny there are crimminal elements involved the struggle........i case i recall is where "freedom fighters" where swapping herion with certain memebers of indian army who giving them alcohol in exchange.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

> dabong1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well my UK friends where degree holders in i think it was accounting and law.
> Both where from wealthy familys and where muslims.
> If you are killed then your family is given certain foodstuffs every month and few thousand rupees a month also........the ones from the UK do not get any payment of any kind to there families.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most commendable.
> 
> What religious fervour.
> 
> Does the UK intel know about them?
> 
> 
> Luck...gods will...fate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3 months if your in kashmir....i dont know about afghanistan
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Totally wrong info.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was talked out of it by an al badr commander......they want us to raise money and create awarness.
> For every 1 freedom fighter on the field there are 4 people behind him to keep him going.
> Who drives the cars,cooks,raises money ect.......every person can not go and fight.
> Out of a million indian soilders how many actually fight and how many are behind them in supporting roles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That must be real disappointing to be just a support staff for such a great cause!
> 
> Must try again!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Freedom may be an abstract idea for you but when you do not have it its aright you are willing to die for.
> Make yourself happy into thinking there all brainwashed fanatics....its makes our job easier.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed!
Click to expand...


----------



## dabong1

Salim said:


> Most commendable.
> 
> What religious fervour.
> 
> Does the UK intel know about them?






As i have said before...theres was tv programme about one of my mates and the other two had articles about them in local/national papers........so yes the UK intel know all about them.






Salim said:


> [Totally wrong info.?







And you would know would you...?
It shows you really are a internet warrior.....read a couple of articles on the net and your an expert..






Salim said:


> That must be real disappointing to be just a support staff for such a great cause!!.






Yes it was.....would have loved to teach some indian soldiers a lesson in how to fight.

How i would have loved to have met you on the battelfield and taken a couple of pot shots at you.....





Salim said:


> Must try again!.?






No need.......i wonder how much bullets you can buy for a pound


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

I think that exchanges along the line that have been going on so far need to stay civil and not reduce to underhanded attempts at denigrating the other side - be it Indian soldiers or the Kashmiri Freedom Fighters.

That would only result in a flame war with each side pointing out the cowardice and atrocities of the other.

Dabong has given a very personal account of how his family and friends have been involved in the struggle. I think that given there are two sides to the issue, one must respect that and proceed in a civil manner and conduct discourse along lines that encourage the sharing of information that broadens our perspectives and understanding of the other side, rather than mere point scoring.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Dabong,*

What do you make of the accusations that there are certain groups in IK who are killing civilians?

Are these people not Kashmiri, and of the "Taliban/AQ" bent, or do you not believe that any of the groups involved have committed atrocities against non-combatants?

I think the sorts of militants I am talking about have tarnished the Kashmiri movement, and have allowed everyone to be painted by the same brush.

That said, I personally think that the time for fighting is over. It is time to spend our resources and commitment on building roads, schools, hospitals and colleges so that we can tangibly show everyone that a Kashmir not controlled by India has a better quality of life for its residents.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

AM,,

You could not have summed it up better!


----------



## Energon

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *Dabong,*
> 
> What do you make of the accusations that there are certain groups in IK who are killing civilians?
> 
> Are these people not Kashmiri, and of the "Taliban/AQ" bent, or do you not believe that any of the groups involved have committed atrocities against non-combatants?
> 
> I think the sorts of militants I am talking about have tarnished the Kashmiri movement, and have allowed everyone to be painted by the same brush.
> 
> That said, I personally think that the time for fighting is over. It is time to spend our resources and commitment on building roads, schools, hospitals and colleges so that we can tangibly show everyone that a Kashmir not controlled by India has a better quality of life for its residents.



At the same time India must be given the right to do pursue active progress on their own side. This will only happen when article 370 is withdrawn. The entire Indian economic gravy train needs to be unleashed upon Kashmir as it has for other states of the union.


----------



## dabong1

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *Dabong,*
> 
> What do you make of the accusations that there are certain groups in IK who are killing civilians?.



Certain elements or to use a often indian used quote....a few bad apples have killed innocent people,i am not going to deny that but it is no different to the number of "bad apples" in the indian army.




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Are these people not Kashmiri, and of the "Taliban/AQ" bent, or do you not believe that any of the groups involved have committed atrocities against non-combatants??.



The main period i can refer to is during 1999/95 at that time as far i am aware the was no taliban/AQ....i did come across a few pathans but i think they where pak military.
The main culprit in kashmir but also in my opinion the most effective from a military point of view would have to be Lashkar-e-Tayyiba.
The problem with these guys was that where hardcore wahabbis and took things to a extreme.
I remember passing through a small town near the border where a large crowd had gathered,when i inquired about what was going on i was told two indian soldiers had been captured by LeT.
I found out later on that instead of handing the prisoners to the pak army LeT had killed one soldier by a shot in the head and the other was kicked to death.
The quran says you can not harm PoW.......now if the LeT cant follow a simple instruction like that then i pretty sure that they would have commited crimes on the civilian population....






AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I think the sorts of militants I am talking about have tarnished the Kashmiri movement, and have allowed everyone to be painted by the same brush..



A few bad apples.....like you get in all organisations and groups....but it has to be stamped out!





AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That said, I personally think that the time for fighting is over. It is time to spend our resources and commitment on building roads, schools, hospitals and colleges so that we can tangibly show everyone that a Kashmir not controlled by India has a better quality of life for its residents.



I dont know if you have been to AJK but let me assure you of one thing we have a better standard of living then our relations in IOK.
My mums cousin came a couple of years ago and the first thing he noticed was the higher standard of living we had in AJK then those in IOK.
If the pak govt feels the way you do ,then i think its time to merge AJK into the federation of pakistan.


----------



## dabong1

Energon said:


> At the same time India must be given the right to do pursue active progress on their own side. This will only happen when article 370 is withdrawn. The entire Indian economic gravy train needs to be unleashed upon Kashmir as it has for other states of the union.



The "economic gravy train" you talk of needs to be "unleashed" on the numerous millions of indian poors who live in slum city's and abject poverty.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

dabong1 said:


> I dont know if you have been to AJK but let me assure you of one thing we have a better standard of living then our relations in IOK.
> My mums cousin came a couple of years ago and the first thing he noticed was the higher standard of living we had in AJK then those in IOK.
> If the pak govt feels the way you do ,then i think its time to merge AJK into the federation of pakistan.



Thank you for the responses Dabong.

On the issue of merging AJK into Pakistan, I am all for it, though I suspect that Pakistan would not want to take such a move without some sort of movement towards a final resolution of the dispute with India.

Whats the sentiment in AJK about merging with Pakistan?


----------



## Vinod2070

dabong1 said:


> The "economic gravy train" you talk of needs to be "unleashed" on the numerous millions of indian poors who live in slum city's and abject poverty.



Yes. A great suggestion.

All that is needed is to provide proper connectivity and education to the poor and they will lift themselves out of poverty. Unfortunately the governance and delivery systems leave a lot to be desired.

The hope is that more and more of education and infrastructure becomes independent of the government, so that like economy, the social development becomes independent of the corrupt and inept politician-bureaucrat nexus.


----------



## Xeric

I think the following are the options available to us to get the Kashmir Issue solved...you may like to add more..

*OPTIONS FOR THE SOLUTION OF KASHMIR PROBLEM*
The options for solution, discussed in succeeding paragraphs, offer ample food for thought to the concerned parties. They are not absolute in nature and will generate varying responses from different quarters. However, these should be seriously viewed as one of them would eventually become the reality.
*# Option 1 &#8211; Plebiscite Option*. Accession of entire Kashmir to India or Pakistan through the right of self determination by the Kashmiris on both sides of LOC, as stipulated in UN resolutions.
a.	*Consequences for Pakistan*
> Sole option recorded with the UN, which had the consent of both India and Pakistan when formulated.
> Upholds the official position of Pakistan.
> Will be in line with the partition plan thus fulfilling the aspirations of people of Pakistan and Muslims of Kashmiris.
> The possible accession of Kashmir to Pakistan can remove her strategic vulnerabilities, besides offering security to the Silk Route between China and Pakistan.
> Plebiscite proposal is in sympathy with the historic aspects also, as Bengal and Punjab got divided on this basis.
> Accession of Kashmir will tremendously boost the economy of Pakistan.
> Will remove the economical and military vulnerabilities of Pakistan forever by putting the rivers flowing through Kashmir under the control of Pakistan.
> Will help to create a balance of power in the presence of already estb nuclear parity in the region in case Kashmiris opt for Pakistan.
> Demographic changes in Indian Held Kashmir and use of force by India may tilt the opinion of the majority in favour of India which will further weaken Pakistan. In case of its materialization, it also entails that:-
> Pakistan will have to loose AJ&K, Baltistan, Gilgit (Northern Areas).
> Pakistan will be deprived of its only land link &#8211; the Silk Route, to China; her only traditional ally in the region.
> Pakistan&#8217;s economy and defense will be sooner in shambles by India having the control of all the rivers flowing through Kashmir and Northern Areas.
> It may also result in large scale communal disturbances and riots destabilizing the whole region.
> Will establish Indian hegemony in the region beyond doubt.
> The proposal may require the demilitarization of the whole state: to be placed under UN troops for some time.
> Plebiscite may also entail certain rehabilitations and border adjustment problems.
*b. Consequences for India*
> In the prospect of Kashmir&#8217;s accession to Pakistan India will be deprived of entire state.
> Indians authorities are firmly of the opinion that giving Kashmir the right of self determination, let alone its accession to Pakistan in the wake of any such exercise, will spark off similar demands from other states of India thus threatening the very integrity of Indian Union.
> In case India is successful to manipulate the plebiscite, the problem will still not be solved due to resistance of Muslim population.
> In case of Kashmir going to India, the already disturbed balance of power will tilt in favour of India permanently.
*# Option 2 - Partition Option.* Division of Kashmir along Muslim /non-Muslim majority areas. In practical terms, it would mean; accession of Northern Areas, Kashmir valley, Azad Kashmir and Muslim majority areas of Jammu with Pakistan and Laddakh and Hindu majority areas of Jammu with India:-
*a.	Consequence for Pakistan*
> Pakistan would retain Azad Kashmir and Northern Areas and also acquire additional territory in Kashmir valley, Northern Areas and Jammu district.
> From defense point of view, it will result into a stronger Pakistan.
> Pakistan&#8217;s strategic vulnerabilities will also be addressed to a certain extent.
> Valley and other fertile areas coming to Pakistan will strengthen Pakistan&#8217;s economy.
> Link with China will be maintained.
> A sizeable population in Pakistan and Kashmir will oppose it as in reality; it will be a step back from the original position from Pakistan&#8217;s view point.
> The chances of future escalation between Pakistan and can not be ruled out permanently.
*b.	Consequences for India*
> India will have to give a portion of area under her Control to Pakistan and this could result into similar Kind of reaction from Indian population as in case of Kashmir&#8217;s accession to Pakistan as a result of Plebiscite.
> All the disadvantages of Kashmir&#8217;s accession to Pakistan (in case of plebiscite) are applicable in this Option to a certain extent.
*# Option 3 - Independent Kashmir Option. *  It envisages an independent and sovereign state consisting of all parts of Jammu & Kashmir. This option is being very vigorously propagated by Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) and has also found favour in some western countries. Implications of this proposal are:-
*a.	Implications For Pakistan*
> In case this option is coupled with plebiscite option, it will divide the Muslim votes into three choices; accession to Pakistan, accession to India or Independent Kashmir. Whereas non-Muslim Votes are likely to be caste in India&#8217;s favour. This may ultimately tilt the result of plebiscite in favour of India thus paving the way for Kashmir&#8217;s accession to India. 
> It would further accentuate the strategic vulnerabilities of Pakistan both in economic and military terms.
> Pakistan will have to give up not only AJ&K but also Northern Areas. 
> Hindu population is likely to start the movement for integration of Hindu majority areas with India.
> Negates the very basic nature of Indian Independence Act.
> May be accepted by India as a &#8220;worst case scenario&#8221;.
> Pakistan will come under greatest pressure, it wills not only have to loose AJ&K and Northern Areas but also the Mangla Dam (situated in areas of AJ&K) and thus the future of the water of Rivers Jhelum and Chenab (flowing from Kashmir) will become uncertain.
*b.	Implications for India*
> India will have to loose both Jammu and Laddakh.
> It may result into similar demands from other former princely states also.	
> The Hindu population in the state will be left without any safeguards.
*d.	Viability of an Independent Kashmir.* It will also be not out of place to analyse the viability of Independent Kashmir:-
> Independent Kashmir without solid economic aid from outside is not feasible.
> Kashmir will be land locked country and it will have to have equal relations with both India and Pakistan. In addition, there is a very strong likelihood of an independent Kashmir becoming a hot bed of International intrigue.
> In its historical background also, it is divorced from and an affront to the history and realities of the problem.
> The demographic realities are also diametrically opposed to the idea of independence especially in the absence of a movement for independence in Jammu, Laddakh, Northern Areas of Pakistan and AJ&K.
*# Option 4 &#8211; Converting LOC Into Border.* Present LOC becoming the international border with some minor adjustments. The idea has been proposed by India many times but rejected by Pakistan. The implications are:-
*a.	Implications For Pakistan*
> The proposal ignores the ground realities, since de-facto partition in vogue has been equivocally rejected by the people of Kashmir.
> Amounts to compromising the principled stand on Kashmir for almost 55 years, besides betrayal to the Kashmiri struggle.
> It would leave a large Muslim dominated territory in Indian Control. Similarly, Pakistan&#8217;s strategic vulnerabilities will not be addressed.
> Pakistan&#8217;s economy and defense capability will always be under a constant threat.
> Kashmir problem will continue to linger on constantly being a threat to the security of the region.
*b.	Implications For India.* India will be at a much advantageous position in case this option materializes as she has the control of more than 65&#37; area of the state besides establishing her hegemonic role in the region beyond doubt.
*# Option 5 &#8211; Military Option (War With India).* There are certain groups in Pakistan who favour this option. However, it is neither in Pakistan&#8217;s interest nor Kashmiris, that their struggle for self determination should be side tracked by Indo-Pak war. Implications of this option are:-
> The Kashmir struggle would go in the back ground.
> It could lead to nuclear confrontation between the two Countries.
> Pakistan&#8217;s economy does not warrant under taking this option.
> Indians may prevail due to their long hold in held Kashmir and military might.
> Pakistan would be condemned internationally for initiating the war. Hence, whatever support we have mustered so far would be lost.

*Recommended Option*
The only viable option in light of above study is the &#8220;Plebiscite Option&#8221;. A UN supervised plebiscite in the state to determine the will of Kashmiri people is the only way to decide the question of state&#8217;s final accession. South Asia today stands on the precipice of a nuclear catastrophe. Let the international community assert its will through the UN to find a lasting solution to the dispute.


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

2EMAEmJ8Cys[/media] - KASHMIR - THE INDIAN MILITARY'S SLAUGHTER HOUSE

There is no chance for peace in kashmir through talks, people will forever be scarred. The only way is to help these people get independence.


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

*Kashmirs new headache: Hindu militants *

By Iftikhar Gilani in New Delhi 

The recent arrest of some Hindus for allegedly abetting and funding militants in Jammu and Kashmir, coupled with the killing of a Hindu commander of the Hizbul Mujahideen, has thrown new light on militancy in the state. 

Although the association of Hindus with militancy in Kashmir is not new, this became apparent with the arrest of a Hindu doctor S K Pandita, who was charged with sheltering militants, followed by the arrest of a Kashmiri Pandit Dalip Kumar, who was involved in financing them. This came in the wake of the killing of a Hindu area commander of the Hizbul Mujahideen, identified as Uttam Singh alias Saifullah, in Doda district.


Intelligence agencies have so far identified 40 to 50 Hindu youth who have taken up arms in Doda, Rajouri and Poonch. According to Rajouri Senior Superintendent of Police, J P Singh, the police have already identified three of the seven top Hindu militants from the Rajouri-Poonch area. 

Of the three, Sham Lal and Kirpal Singh belong to the Hizbul Mujahideen and Sanjay to the Lashkar-e-Toiba. Singh claimed all of them have crossed the Line of Control (LoC) for arms training. 

One of them is also an area commander of the Hizbul Mujahideen. He added that the police had trapped Sham Lal two months ago, but he escaped while five of his accomplices were shot dead. 

A senior police officer believes that the idealism associated with militancy, hunger for power and opportunities to extort money are the factors that lure Hindu boys into it. Unemployment and poverty, especially in the remote areas, are also catalysts. 

"However, their number is very small and we are holding interactive sessions with leaders from both the Muslim and Hindu community to stop their youth from committing acts of violence," he said. 

Almost three months ago, a teenage Hindu girl, Neena, was arrested from Rajouri for assisting militants. Police later said that she had fallen in love with a Hizbul Mujahideen district commander, Shamshuddin. 

According to police, she facilitated the passage of several Hindu and Muslim militants, and had arranged for food and shelter for them. 

The involvement of Hindus in insurgency dates back to 1992, when a youth was killed while trying to throw a grenade in a busy Jammu chowk. The association became more evident when, in 2001, security forces killed a Hindu militant Kuldeep Singhalong with seven other in a fierce encounter at Chatter Gali in Doda district. 

His elder brother Randeep Singh is still a commander of the Hizbul Mujahideen in Doda district. 

According to police files, Lal Chand, the son of a local farmer, had crossed over to Pakistan occupied Kashmir (***) in 1997 and returned to Doda in 2001, after undergoing arms training. In the following year, security forces arrested Bharat Kumar from the Satwari area of Jammu city with arms and ammunition. He had received military training for four years in Pakistan and Afghanistan. 

The police also arrested another Hindu, a noted smuggler from the border town of RS Pura, who was found involved in Jammu's Raghunath temple attack in 2002. In November 2004, Manoj Kumar Manhas, a Hizbul Mujahideen activist, was among the 47 militants who surrendered before the Army. Manoj Kumar had revealed that another Hindu militant, Baldev Singh, who is still absconding, lured him into militancy. 

The recent arrests of a doctor and a financer have added a new dimension to the whole saga. Earlier, authorities would blame unemployment, hunger and remoteness for this phenomenon. S K Pandita, was said to be heading a state government dispensary at Gund Thethar in Doda. 

He was arrested when it was found that he had treated a Hizbul Mujahideen militant injured in a blast on August 10. Pandita confessed that he had been harbouring militants of the Hizbul Mujahideen and the Lashkar-e-Toiba for over a decade. 

According to Garib Das, superintendent of police, Banihal, the doctor disclosed during interrogation that he had also been acting as a courier for the militants, carrying their messages and ammunition. 

The editor of a local weekly Sada-e-Kohsar, Haq Nawaz Nehru says that besides romanticism, it is police atrocities that force Hindu youth to join militant ranks. 

However, police officials said most of those who have joined militants are criminals. 

Ghambir Chand, father of Hindu militant Baldev, claims that some gunmen had abducted his son when he had taken cattle to the nearby forests for grazing. 

"When he escaped from the militants' custody and reached home after 10 days, I personally took him to the nearby Army camp for questioning," he said. There they detained his son for two months and later handed him over to the Bhaderwah police. 

"A week later, he was released. But he was picked up again, this time by the Special Operations Group [SOG], immediately after we reached home," Baldev's father said. The SOG tortured him, but he escaped from their custody after a month and later resurfaced as a militant.

Kashmirs new headache: Hindu militants - Sify.com


----------



## dabong1

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Thank you for the responses Dabong.
> 
> On the issue of merging AJK into Pakistan, I am all for it, though I suspect that Pakistan would not want to take such a move without some sort of movement towards a final resolution of the dispute with India.



Bro no disrespect but the "final resolution" you talk of is what we have now.
The indians want "peace" just as long they have total control in IOK...which they they have at the moment.
If musharaff had banned the kashmiri military groups before 9/11 under no pressure ,things in the peace process might have different.......i think we might have reached some sort of fudged peace.....i little bit of give and take.
But the circumstances in which musharaff cut off the freedom movement was from a point of weakness.......thats why the indians will budge 1 inch on the issue.

There is only one "final resolution" and that is for kashmir to join pakistan.

Musharaff could have got the US to "turn a blind eye" to the kashmir struggle in some sort of a deal for helping the US against the taliban.




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Whats the sentiment in AJK about merging with Pakistan?



If you asked the question on the street ,my opinion would be that at the start of the conversation they want an independent kashmir,but once you go deeper most people end up wanting to join pakistan.


----------



## dabong1

Vinod2070 said:


> Yes. A great suggestion.
> 
> All that is needed is to provide proper connectivity and education to the poor and they will lift themselves out of poverty. Unfortunately the governance and delivery systems leave a lot to be desired.
> 
> The hope is that more and more of education and infrastructure becomes independent of the government, so that like economy, the social development becomes independent of the corrupt and inept politician-bureaucrat nexus.


----------



## dabong1

asaad-ul-islam said:


> *Kashmirs new headache: Hindu militants *
> 
> By Iftikhar Gilani in New Delhi
> 
> The recent arrest of some Hindus for allegedly abetting and funding militants in Jammu and Kashmir, coupled with the killing of a Hindu commander of the Hizbul Mujahideen, has thrown new light on militancy in the state.
> 
> Although the association of Hindus with militancy in Kashmir is not new, this became apparent with the arrest of a Hindu doctor S K Pandita, who was charged with sheltering militants, followed by the arrest of a Kashmiri Pandit Dalip Kumar, who was involved in financing them. This came in the wake of the killing of a Hindu area commander of the Hizbul Mujahideen, identified as Uttam Singh alias Saifullah, in Doda district.
> 
> 
> Intelligence agencies have so far identified 40 to 50 Hindu youth who have taken up arms in Doda, Rajouri and Poonch. According to Rajouri Senior Superintendent of Police, J P Singh, the police have already identified three of the seven top Hindu militants from the Rajouri-Poonch area.
> 
> Of the three, Sham Lal and Kirpal Singh belong to the Hizbul Mujahideen and Sanjay to the Lashkar-e-Toiba. Singh claimed all of them have crossed the Line of Control (LoC) for arms training.
> 
> One of them is also an area commander of the Hizbul Mujahideen. He added that the police had trapped Sham Lal two months ago, but he escaped while five of his accomplices were shot dead.
> 
> A senior police officer believes that the idealism associated with militancy, hunger for power and opportunities to extort money are the factors that lure Hindu boys into it. Unemployment and poverty, especially in the remote areas, are also catalysts.
> 
> "However, their number is very small and we are holding interactive sessions with leaders from both the Muslim and Hindu community to stop their youth from committing acts of violence," he said.
> 
> Almost three months ago, a teenage Hindu girl, Neena, was arrested from Rajouri for assisting militants. Police later said that she had fallen in love with a Hizbul Mujahideen district commander, Shamshuddin.
> 
> According to police, she facilitated the passage of several Hindu and Muslim militants, and had arranged for food and shelter for them.
> 
> The involvement of Hindus in insurgency dates back to 1992, when a youth was killed while trying to throw a grenade in a busy Jammu chowk. The association became more evident when, in 2001, security forces killed a Hindu militant Kuldeep Singhalong with seven other in a fierce encounter at Chatter Gali in Doda district.
> 
> His elder brother Randeep Singh is still a commander of the Hizbul Mujahideen in Doda district.
> 
> According to police files, Lal Chand, the son of a local farmer, had crossed over to Pakistan occupied Kashmir (***) in 1997 and returned to Doda in 2001, after undergoing arms training. In the following year, security forces arrested Bharat Kumar from the Satwari area of Jammu city with arms and ammunition. He had received military training for four years in Pakistan and Afghanistan.
> 
> The police also arrested another Hindu, a noted smuggler from the border town of RS Pura, who was found involved in Jammu's Raghunath temple attack in 2002. In November 2004, Manoj Kumar Manhas, a Hizbul Mujahideen activist, was among the 47 militants who surrendered before the Army. Manoj Kumar had revealed that another Hindu militant, Baldev Singh, who is still absconding, lured him into militancy.
> 
> The recent arrests of a doctor and a financer have added a new dimension to the whole saga. Earlier, authorities would blame unemployment, hunger and remoteness for this phenomenon. S K Pandita, was said to be heading a state government dispensary at Gund Thethar in Doda.
> 
> He was arrested when it was found that he had treated a Hizbul Mujahideen militant injured in a blast on August 10. Pandita confessed that he had been harbouring militants of the Hizbul Mujahideen and the Lashkar-e-Toiba for over a decade.
> 
> According to Garib Das, superintendent of police, Banihal, the doctor disclosed during interrogation that he had also been acting as a courier for the militants, carrying their messages and ammunition.
> 
> The editor of a local weekly Sada-e-Kohsar, Haq Nawaz Nehru says that besides romanticism, it is police atrocities that force Hindu youth to join militant ranks.
> 
> However, police officials said most of those who have joined militants are criminals.
> 
> Ghambir Chand, father of Hindu militant Baldev, claims that some gunmen had abducted his son when he had taken cattle to the nearby forests for grazing.
> 
> "When he escaped from the militants' custody and reached home after 10 days, I personally took him to the nearby Army camp for questioning," he said. There they detained his son for two months and later handed him over to the Bhaderwah police.
> 
> "A week later, he was released. But he was picked up again, this time by the Special Operations Group [SOG], immediately after we reached home," Baldev's father said. The SOG tortured him, but he escaped from their custody after a month and later resurfaced as a militant.
> 
> Kashmirs new headache: Hindu militants - Sify.com



I knew that the other kashmir freedom fighting groups had hindu/sikh members but i never thought LeT would have hindu members.............


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

dabong1 said:


> I knew that the other kashmir freedom fighting groups had hindu/sikh members but i never thought LeT would have hindu members.............


you'd be surprised, i don't know why it happens either? I guess they've had their share of humiliation from indian soldiers.


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

dabong1 said:


> If you asked the question on the street ,my opinion would be that at the start of the conversation they want an independent kashmir,but once you go deeper most people end up wanting to join pakistan.


same here, any kashmiri muslim I talk with whether they're family or friend would rather opt for joining pakistan. Kashmiri's are too embedded in our culture. My guess is they would rather say independence to appease indians.

Musharraf should have never cut off those groups. india hasn't budged and has only caused more problems for us in balochistan. The moment we let go of the offensive, we are wide open to attack. Stability comes before economy, which some people unfortunately still don't understand.


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

in my opinion, the best option is to let the inhabitants of the Kashmir Valley hold a plebiscite. Convince India and Pakistan, that they can keep Northern Areas and Ladakh ( and other hindu majority parts). 

Pakistan should also give up AJK, which they've already done in essence. AJK and the Kashmir Valley, compromising muslim majority areas should be independent.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

asaad-ul-islam said:


> in my opinion, the best option is to let the inhabitants of the Kashmir Valley hold a plebiscite. Convince India and Pakistan, that they can keep Northern Areas and Ladakh ( and other hindu majority parts).
> 
> Pakistan should also give up AJK, which they've already done in essence. AJK and the Kashmir Valley, compromising muslim majority areas should be independent.



I would agree with that as being a feasible solution.

The Kashmir Valley gets to become independent, or autonomous/jointly administered, while Jammu, Laddakh and Northern Areas get integrated into India and Pakistan respectively.

I believe its one of the proposals Musharraf floated, and going by an article I read, a RAW chief was in favor of looking at solutions outside of India's stated inflexibility. Advani apparently took umbrage at that idea and shot it down.



> In his recently published book, &#8216;My Country, My Life&#8217;, Advani wrote that his approach to dealing with the separatists had been significantly different to that of Brajesh Mishra, National Security adviser, and AS Dulat, former RAW chief. He said he had become upset at the impression doled out by Dulat, who was serving as an adviser in the Prime Minister&#8217;s Office (PMO) on Jammu and Kashmir, that the government was prepared to look at solutions to the Kashmir &#8220;issues&#8221; that were not within the purview of the Indian constitution.


Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


----------



## Flintlock

^^^I don't see that happening anytime soon, unfortunately or fortunately.

Kashmir is indeed showing signs of integrating with the rest of india. Massive infrastructure investment is being done in kashmir and the govt. is going all out to woo kashmiris.

So, its a rather delicate situation. If Pakistan resumes terrorism on a massive scale, then it will lose its credibility in the international media.

On the other hand, if Pakistan sits back and watches, Kashmir will normalize within the next decade.

So, the most practical solution is making LOC the border.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Stealth Assassin said:


> ^^^I don't see that happening anytime soon, unfortunately or fortunately.
> 
> Kashmir is indeed showing signs of integrating with the rest of india. Massive infrastructure investment is being done in kashmir and the govt. is going all out to woo kashmiris.
> 
> So, its a rather delicate situation. If Pakistan resumes terrorism on a massive scale, then it will lose its credibility in the international media.
> 
> On the other hand, if Pakistan sits back and watches, Kashmir will normalize within the next decade.
> 
> So, the most practical solution is making LOC the border.



It has to be a solution that is acceptable to Kashmiris. 

Given the continued lack of desire to hold a plebiscite in the region, I rather doubt that India is making any headway in terms of "hearts and minds". The presence of relatives and other Kashmiris living according to their own choice in relative prosperity in AK is always going to be a reminder of what could be.

However if the Kashmiris decide to stay with India, all power to them.


----------



## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It has to be a solution that is acceptable to Kashmiris.
> 
> Given the continued lack of desire to hold a plebiscite in the region, I rather doubt that India is making any headway in terms of "hearts and minds". The presence of relatives and other Kashmiris living according to their own choice in relative prosperity in AK is always going to be a reminder of what could be.
> 
> However if the Kashmiris decide to stay with India, all power to them.



You must remember that Kashmiris weren't always hostile to India. A big reason why Kashmiris grew hostile was because the '87 elections were rigged.

Before 1980s, most Kashmiris were pro-India, and with time, things will change again.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Stealth Assassin said:


> You must remember that Kashmiris weren't always hostile to India.
> 
> Before 1980s, most Kashmiris were pro-India, and with time, things will change again.



I am skeptical of that - India would have been begging for a plebiscite the entire time if that were the case. 

You cannot simply flip a switch to make millions of people suddenly dislike a nation they supported. It takes typically takes generations, or some cataclysmic event or series of events, to achieve that sort of change.

The only way such a dramatic change could have happened is if the atrocities and destruction attributed to the Indian Military were indeed on as large a scale as claimed, and that ended up alienating the kashmiri population from India, and causing this 180 degree change in sentiment.

If the latter case is true, that the atrocities by the Indian Military caused the shift in sentiment, then I agree that over time, and moderation of that sort of behavior by the Indian military, the Kashmiris will experience another shift in sentiment.

But if not, then the only explanation is that they never were pro-India, and then there is far less historical cause to believe that there will be a shift in sentiment (though it doesn't rule it out either).

*P.S: *I noted your edit referring to the rigged 87 elections, but I still maintain my argument. Rigged elections are not the sort of cataclysmic event that cause the sort of change in sentiment that you see in Kashmir. Pakistan has only had about 2 "free and fair" elections in its history, you would think every province would be hostile to the idea of Pakistan by now. 

A lack of representative government and a lack of autonomy has caused tensions, but it has accumulated over generations, and not some sort of instantaneous change as you suggest happened in Kashmir - if it was instantaneous, coinciding with the rigged elections, then there were already resentment and undercurrents of hostility present, which implies that they never truly accepted India to begin with.


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## Flintlock

*Anti-India rhetorics in J&K poll campaign*

Sunday, April 20, 2008 (Srinagar)
Elections in Jammu and Kashmir have often been seen as a matter of choosing between separatists and pro-India parties.

But ironically, in the run up to the assembly elections scheduled to be held later this year,* its the mainstream parties that are using separatist slogans in their campaigns.*

At a rally in Budgam*, National Conference leaders blamed New Delhi for every problem in Kashmir.*

In fact, they even extended an olive branch to militants.

''God willing, and if you people support us, National Conference will form the next government. We will again announce a ceasefire with militants and initiate dialogue with them. There will be no conditions for talks,'' said Omar Abdullah, president, National Congress.
*
Even the Peoples Democratic Party, an ally of the Congress-led government in the state, is talking of self-rule and demilitarisation.*

They also want to share a currency and legislative council with Azad Kashmir.

''Is this a sin, if PDP is demanding that there should be representatives for the Upper House from other side of Kashmir also? And what's bad, if PDP is demanding Pakistani and Indian currency here and other part of Jammu and Kashmir?'' asks PDP president Mehbooba Mufti.

So far, most separatist groups here have not mentioned anything about boycotting the polls.

And now, the mainstream parties have actually given them a handle to justify their cause.

''The way current political landscape has been set up now, the situation has become very difficult. If you boycott, it's a boycott against Indian state and if you vote, it's a vote in favour of secession. Either way it represents the sentiment somehow,'' says Sajad Lone, Chairman, People's Party.

In their ambition to conquer the separatist constituency in Kashmir, the pro-India parties have ended up adopting soft separatism. And all indicators suggest that 2008 assembly elections will be contested mainly on anti-India rhetoric.

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080047380&ch=4/20/2008%2011:24:00%20AM


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> They also want to share a currency and legislative council with Azad Kashmir.



I still say - autonomous and jointly controlled. Even parties (national Conference) that used to be openly hostile to Pakistan, welcomed Musharraf's proposals, and apparently still do. 

Its a win win for everyone, and in fact sets the stage for a larger confederation between India and Pakistan down the road.


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## Flintlock

These are pro-India parties.

As the article says, they are using "Soft Separatism" in order to garner votes.

Basically, this approach is being used to reconcile the separatists with the mainstream political parties and work out a consensus.

In reality, the Indian Army isn't going to leave Kashmir in a hurry. To a large extent, it depends on the militant situation. 
If things calm down, then the army will begin moving out. However, if the terrorist activities continue, it will simply give a reason for the army to stay put.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Stealth Assassin said:


> ^^^Don't get your hopes up. These are pro-India parties.
> 
> As the article says, they are using "Soft Separatism" in order to garner votes.
> 
> Basically, this approach is being used to reconcile the separatists with the mainstream political parties and work out a consensus.



I know they are pro-India, I remeber the NC's anti-Pakistan rhetoric, but years ago when Musharraf first floated these proposal of joint control and shared administration - currency, legislature etc. - they were welcomed by the NC leadership. So while this may be an attempt to bring in the separatists, you have to remember that if what is promised is not delivered, you end up with people even more bitter than they were before.

So there will be at least some movement towards what they are promising, otherwise it'll merely discredit the mainstream political parties.


----------



## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I still say - autonomous and jointly controlled. Even parties (national Conference) that used to be openly hostile to Pakistan, welcomed Musharraf's proposals, and apparently still do.
> 
> Its a win win for everyone, and in fact sets the stage for a larger confederation between India and Pakistan down the road.



They have to. If they support India and hate Pakistan openly, they will never get votes. 

The point is, that irrespective of what the politicians say, things aren't going to move on the ground unless GOI wants them to.


----------



## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I know they are pro-India, I remeber the NC's anti-Pakistan rhetoric, but years ago when Musharraf first floated these proposal of joint control and shared administration - currency, legislature etc. - they were welcomed by the NC leadership. So while this may be an attempt to bring in the separatists, you have to remember that if what is promised is not delivered, you end up with people even more bitter than they were before.
> 
> So there will be at least some movement towards what they are promising, otherwise it'll merely discredit the mainstream political parties.



Dunno...as I said, these parties don't have any real say in the matter. If the elected party tries to implement anything on a unilateral basis, immediately Presidents Rule will be imposed on the state. 

So, all I can see happening is that there will be dialogue, and they will try to drag things on until the anti-India sentiment fades with time.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> In reality, the Indian Army isn't going to leave Kashmir in a hurry. To a large extent, it depends on the militant situation.
> If things calm down, then the army will begin moving out. However, if the terrorist activities continue, it will simply give a reason for the army to stay put.



Joint legislature and currency is the long term solution -what you will have initially, if the GoI does not get cold feet, and insurgency under the new GoP does not spike, is movement on the proposal to allow trade and travel between the two Kashmir's. If that goes off successfully with a continued lull in militancy, the we might see movement towards such a solution.

Greater trade and exchanges between the Kashmir's will lead to prosperity and hopefully a damping of hostility the Kashmiris feel towards India (which should cause militancy to dry up on its own), and in turn successful trade between PAK and IAK will lead to greater trade between India and Pakistan.

You have to realize that neither side is getting what it wants here. Pakistan has already shown a huge amount of flexibility by moving away from its position of "Implement the UN resolutions". If we were only interested in perpetuating the militancy, we would have stuck to our guns on the Plebiscite as well.

India needs to look at the long term and get off its high horse and actually indicate that it is interested in bringing about an end to decades of hostility by showing flexibility.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> So, all I can see happening is that there will be dialogue, and they will try to drag things on until the anti-India sentiment fades with time.



That is why Pakistanis don't trust India - here is an opportunity to actually bring about an end to decades of hostility - it is a solution that is a compromise for either side, no one actually gets Kashmir, yet the Indian Government, according to you, would still rather just drag the hostility along for years in the hope that perhaps the anti-India sentiment will die down, all at the expense of thousands of families split apart, and a people separated.

Doesn't really jive well with India's moral grandstanding on other issues.


----------



## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Joint legislature and currency is the long term solution -what you will have initially, if the GoI does not get cold feet, and insurgency under the new GoP does not spike, is movement on the proposal to allow trade and travel between the two Kashmir's. If that goes off successfully with a continued lull in militancy, the we might see movement towards such a solution.



In the long term, perhaps.

As of now, if the insurgency dies down, Kashmir is going to remain firmly in India's hands.
India doesn't gain anything by joint legislature. Why would it adopt such a scheme?



> Greater trade and exchanges between the Kashmir's will lead to prosperity and hopefully a damping of hostility the Kashmiris feel towards India (which should cause militancy to dry up on its own), and in turn successful trade between PAK and IAK will lead to greater trade between India and Pakistan.



Perhaps, it all depends on how the situation pans out.

As of now, massive infrastructure projects---dams, bridges, railroads, airports are being constructed.
A railway is getting built right upto Srinagar...and an all-weather highway is being planned.




> You have to realize that neither side is getting what it wants here. Pakistan has already shown a huge amount of flexibility by moving away from its position of "Implement the UN resolutions". If we were only interested in perpetuating the militancy, we would have stuck to our guns on the Plebiscite as well.



All that is thanks to Musharraf. 

With Zardari and Sharif in power, it seems that militancy is being revived, and maybe they might pump-up the rhetoric as well..lets see.

If that happens, then India will simply clamp down harder and nothing will move forward.



> India needs to look at the long term and get off its high horse and actually indicate that it is interested in bringing about decades of hostility by showing flexibility.



That's the whole point. India doesn't want to give up its hold on Kashmir, because it is taking measures to integrate the valley with the rest of India.

If things don't work out in the long term, then maybe India might change its stance.


----------



## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That is why Pakistanis don't trust India - here is an opportunity to actually bring about an end to decades of hostility - it is a solution that is a compromise for either side, no one actually gets Kashmir, yet the Indian Government, according to you, would still rather just drag the hostility along for years in the hope that perhaps the anti-India sentiment will die down, all at the expense of thousands of families split apart, and a people separated.
> 
> Doesn't really jive well with India's moral grandstanding on other issues.



Well, that's politics for you.

India isn't just standing by and stifling Kashmir btw, it is doing a great deal to improve their lives. 

As I just said, massive amounts are being spent on infrastructure, schools and colleges in the valley right now.

So the idea is to increase interaction of kashmiris with the rest of India, and encourage commerce and trade. This, India hopes, will thaw the hostilities.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

I think I will give a personal example to show Indians and Pakistanis don't hate each other!

It is only the national psyche generated by self seeking politicians on both sides who keep the flames burning instead of the fires of the hearth and home!

After the 1917 War where I carried out a raid well inside Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (during the War), I met my opposite number during the delineation of the Line of Control.

We showed them Pakeezah on the LC as desired by them since it was just released or so and also gave them Rum which they wanted. The Officer however did not want it since he was a true Mos.lem.

We met regularly, practically every day. Ate lunch together on the banks of the stream that divided us! No hassles of Jhatka or hallal.

We are still friends and we will continue to be so, no matter what is our govts' policies. 

He know that I did not raid his area because I hated him and I know that he did not mortar me while I was exfiltrating because he hate me!.

He was doing his duty and I was doing mine.

And yet we remain friends till today!!

I know it will be funny for you people who are so filled with hate, Indians and Pakistanis here!


----------



## Flintlock

Look, as far as "Moral Grandstanding" is concerned, India does have the moral upper-hand over Pakistan.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

And the Pakistani officer should have hated me since I was a Bengali and Mujabir Rehman and his Bengalis were the cause of the war!!

Yet, he did not!!

Says much about those who experience the realities of war compared to the jingoist cyber warriors in air conditioned comfort pontificating for causes that they will not leave their comforts for!!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Stealth Assassin said:


> In the long term, perhaps.



Thats what I said.


> As of now, if the insurgency dies down, Kashmir is going to remain firmly in India's hands.



The Kashmiri supported insurgency won't die down, even if the GoP stops materially supporting them. As it is the majority of the funds come from private sources anyway I believe.



> India doesn't gain anything by joint legislature. Why would it adopt such a scheme?
> 
> Perhaps, it all depends on how the situation pans out.


Pakistan gains nothing either, why do you think we are advocating it? SO that we can put violence and hostility behind us and move ahead. For all the finger pointing at Pakistan "inculcating hostility against India" you Indians do, its amazing that when it actually comes to resolving issues, you are all for perpetuating the hostility. 

It indicates which side is actually sincere about resolving issues.



> As of now, massive infrastructure projects---dams, bridges, railroads, airports are being constructed.
> A railway is getting built right upto Srinagar...and an all-weather highway is being planned.



None of that really resolves the conflict, none of it reunites families or a people.



> All that is thanks to Musharraf.
> 
> With Zardari and Sharif in power, it seems that militancy is being revived, and maybe they might pump-up the rhetoric as well..lets see.
> 
> If that happens, then India will simply clamp down harder and nothing will move forward.



I disagree - you are basing your entire comment of "revival" on one article that talks about hoardings and small meetings in Karachi. 

Did you know that the attacks in Baluchistan have gone up as well since the new government took charge? That doesn't mean the new Govt. is supportive of Baloch Militants blowing up infrastructure and murdering people. 

What you have is a power vacuum as bureaucracy is shuffled around and no one knows what the new Govt.'s policies are going to be on these issues, especially as it remains distracted by the judiciary issue. 

Its premature and flawed to come to conclusions about future Kashmir policy on the basis of such reports.

If Militancy is resurrected, and India clamps down harder, then you also lose any hopes of ever winning the Kashmiris over - so its not a preferable option for either side. 



> That's the whole point. India doesn't want to give up its hold on Kashmir, because it is taking measures to integrate the valley with the rest of India.


You cannot integrate the valley so long as the Kashmiris themselves remain forcibly divided. And while you may dismiss the rhetoric of the political parties as mere "vote grabbing" the fact that they are resorting to such rhetoric is itself symbolic of the fact that there is overwhelming sentiment in Kashmir in support of that rhetoric - and the more it is repeated by even pro-India parties, the more the Kashmiris will take it to heart, and the more devastating the shock if it is not implemented at all.

You cannot make promises and never fulfill them.


> If things don't work out in the long term, then maybe India might change its stance.


Quite sad and unfortunate really.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Wonderful account Salim.


----------



## dabong1

Salim said:


> After the 1917 War where I carried out a raid well inside Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (during the War), I met my opposite number during the delineation of the Line of Control.!



How old are you?.......98



Salim said:


> We showed them Pakeezah on the LC as desired by them since it was just released or so and also gave them Rum which they wanted. The Officer however did not want it since he was a true Mos.lem..!



are you trying to tell me a pakistani officer did not accept a bottle of rum......court martial him


----------



## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Thats what I said.
> 
> 
> The Kashmiri supported insurgency won't die down, even if the GoP stops materially supporting them. As it is the majority of the funds come from private sources anyway I believe.



That entirely depends on things such as unemployment, job opportunities and education.

If India can improve the Kashmiri economy, which went completely bust all thanks to the terrorists, then the insurgency will fade.



> Pakistan gains nothing either, why do you think we are advocating it? SO that we can put violence and hostility behind us and move ahead. For all the finger pointing at Pakistan "inculcating hostility against India" you Indians do, its amazing that when it actually comes to resolving issues, you are all for perpetuating the hostility.



Oh please...which Pakistani politician has agreed to give up Kashmir? 




> None of that really resolves the conflict, none of it reunites families or a people.



Dude, the valley has around 4 mn people. I don't think any significant number of them have "divided families".

Far more families were divided during Partition.



> I disagree - you are basing your entire comment of "revival" on one article that talks about hoardings and small meetings in Karachi.
> 
> Did you know that the attacks in Baluchistan have gone up as well since the new government took charge? That doesn't mean the new Govt. is supportive of Baloch Militants blowing up infrastructure and murdering people.



No I"m not. Ive read atleast 3-4 reports which indicate that recruitment of fighters has begun, and the terrorist infrastructure is being re-activated.

IT means that the new govt. is taking a soft stand with terrorists. 

Of course, its early days, but this is the trend anyways.



> What you have is a power vacuum as bureaucracy is shuffled around and no one knows what the new Govt.'s policies are going to be on these issues, especially as it remains distracted by the judiciary issue.



Maybe..lets see.



> If Militancy is resurrected, and India clamps down harder, then you also lose any hopes of ever winning the Kashmiris over - so its not a preferable option for either side.



Obviously..it'll be very bad. 

If attacks step up in the valley, once again all the trade, construction and business will come to a grinding halt...



> You cannot integrate the valley so long as the Kashmiris themselves remain forcibly divided. And while you may dismiss the rhetoric of the political parties as mere "vote grabbing" the fact that they are resorting to such rhetoric is itself symbolic of the fact that there is overwhelming sentiment in Kashmir in support of that rhetoric - and the more it is repeated by even pro-India parties, the more the Kashmiris will take it to heart, and the more devastating the shock if it is not implemented at all.



Lol...that depends really...politicians in India ( politicians in general) tend to promise the moon to voters. 
Usually very little gets done.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Stealth Assassin said:


> That entirely depends on things such as unemployment, job opportunities and education.
> 
> If India can improve the Kashmiri economy, which went completely bust all thanks to the terrorists, then the insurgency will fade.


Speculative - assuming that the insurgency is based solely on the demand for jobs - which it isn't.




> Oh please...which Pakistani politician has agreed to give up Kashmir?


Given India's complete inflexibility on any of the options presented by Musharraf, the opinion in Pakistan is that India does not want a solution to the issue, and unlike Musharraf the politicians are probably not going to go out on a limb and give up the moral position of a plebiscite - unless talks between the two sides show flexibility from the Indian side.



> Dude, the valley has around 4 mn people. I don't think any significant number of them have "divided families".



I think I specifically mentioned "thousands" not millions. And ask Dabong whether the division impacts the Kashmiris or not.



> No I"m not. Ive read atleast 3-4 reports which indicate that recruitment of fighters has begun, and the terrorist infrastructure is being re-activated.


Regurgitations and embellishment of the same report most likely.

But still, links and non-Indian please.


> IT means that the new govt. is taking a soft stand with terrorists.
> 
> Of course, its early days, but this is the trend anyways.



It means nothing at this point -as you said - "its early days". 


> Lol...that depends really...politicians in India ( politicians in general) tend to promise the moon to voters.
> 
> Usually very little gets done.



There is a difference between promising jobs and addressing seperatist concerns and assuaging sentiments of a people who view themselves as occupied. 

In Baluchistan for example, the new government will have to actually move on its promises of greater autonomy and development if it wants to win the people over. It can't just do the same old political dance.

Don't confuse the politics of elsewhere with politics in a region with strong seperatist sentiment.


----------



## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Speculative - assuming that the insurgency is based solely on the demand for jobs - which it isn't.



It is to a large extent based on the frustrations of poverty and lack of opportunities. 
Don't take my word for it...ask any social scientist.



> Given India's complete inflexibility on any of the options presented by Musharraf, the opinion in Pakistan is that India does not want a solution to the issue, and unlike Musharraf the politicians are probably not going to go out on a limb and give up the moral position of a plebiscite - unless talks between the two sides show flexibility from the Indian side.



So basically neither India, nor Pakistan are interested in changing the status quo at the moment.

So why blame India? 

Kashmir is relatively peaceful after a long while. India wants to take advantage of the situation to make living conditions a little better for Kashmiris. This is not the time for talk, but for action, as far as GOI is concerned.

Please, don't take the moral high-ground. Don't forget that Pakistan has been killing a dozen Kashmiris a month since 1989 by blasting bombs in public places.



> There is a difference between promising jobs and addressing seperatist concerns and assuaging sentiments of a people who view themselves as occupied.



As I said, these sentiments are usually tied to standards of living. 

The extremist fringe (The ones who take up arms) are usually religious fanatics, and they don't deserve a hearing anyway.

You must remember that Kashmiri identity isn't being damaged by India in any way. 

Kashmiris have religious freedom, democracy, and access to the resources of the Indian state.

Any smart kashmiri will retain his kashmiriyat and achieve progress in such a climate.



> In Baluchistan for example, the new government will have to actually move on its promises of greater autonomy and development if it wants to win the people over. It can't just do the same old political dance.



Really? I'd love to see that happen....but I don't believe for a moment that Balochistan is going to get autonomy.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Stealth Assassin said:


> It is to a large extent based on the frustrations of poverty and lack of opportunities.
> Don't take my word for it...ask any social scientist.



Not true at all, because the dynamics and cause behind the unrest to begin with were not poverty and lack of opportunities, but ideological.

The social scientists argument works in some cases, where there is no ideological seperatist dynamic to the alienation of the populace. For example in Baluchistan, though some groups (an extremely small minority) are in favor of a "Greater Baluchistan" including the Iranian and Afghan Baluch regions, the majority are alienated because of a lack of development and opportunities, and too much central control. But the ideological basis, for the majority, is still very much for achieving this as a part of Pakistan, since the Baluch willingly chose to join the Pakistani federation through referendum and Sardari consultations to begin with.

If "lack of opportunities" was all that mattered, then you would have had similar unrest in every state of India before the economic boom. There are other factors that make the Kashmir situation unique - the internationally recognized status of the region as disputed territory. The presence of Azad Kashmir. 

This could be possibly compared to the Kurds, who as a nation divided have never forgotten their hopes of being a nation united - and that is despite no champion for their cause, while the Kashmiris have Pakistan pressing for their right o self determination and their fellow Kashmiris exercising the right to live as they choose in AK.



> So basically neither India, nor Pakistan are interested in changing the status quo at the moment.
> 
> So why blame India?


The only reason the Pakistani politicians will back off is because Musharraf's proposals were rebuffed. Pakistan was willing to cede control over its part of Kashmir under the proposals presented by Musharraf. It was India that refused, and in the process created distrust over its intentions to seek a resolution to the dispute. 

Therefore India is the only one to blame, after the Musharraf overtures.

Let me also remind you that the position of "Joint Adminsitration" or "kashmir Valley independence" is a losing proposition for Pakistan as well. The status quo in fact allows us to integrate Gilgit and Azad Kashmir into Pakistan as provinces, thereby increasing our area, whereas the other does not. So don't mistake the intent to come to a solution with weakness and the intent to save whatever we can - Pakistan loses territory by going this route, but is able to satisfy Kashmiris and its Citizens that a just and acceptable (for the kashmiris) solution was obtained.


> Kashmir is relatively peaceful after a long while. India wants to take advantage of the situation to make living conditions a little better for Kashmiris. This is not the time for talk, but for action, as far as GOI is concerned.
> 
> Please, don't take the moral high-ground. Don't forget that Pakistan has been killing a dozen Kashmiris a month since 1989 by blasting bombs in public places.



For the first part -see my first few paras.

I don't have to _try_ and take the moral high ground. 

A plebiscite is a self-evidently moral. 

Pakistan is not the one arguing for continued military presence and subduing the local population over a number of years and (per Energon) seeking demographic changes ala China by revoking Kashmir's special status.

In terms of the options for solutions offered, India doesn't even come close to being on moral high ground.

As for "bombs", even there the casualties are far fewer than what the Indian Military has inflicted. How else do you explain the continued alienation of the populace from India - so much so that even pro-India political parties are having to spout "soft-separatism" rhetoric to get votes and participation.

No sir, if your nation had any shred of a "moral position" in Kashmir, you would not be so disliked by the Kashmiris, and would not be so allergic to a self-evidently moral UN mandated Plebiscite.


> You must remember that Kashmiri identity isn't being damaged by India in any way.
> 
> Kashmiris have religious freedom, democracy, and access to the resources of the Indian state.
> 
> Any smart kashmiri will retain his kashmiriyat and achieve progress in such a climate.


It doesn't matter. Kashmiris will progress, take advantage of whatever India has to offer them, and the presence of Azad Kashmir, the reality of history, and the reality of their brethren living as they chose will always be in their hearts.

The Kurds have never given up, neither will the kashmiris - the modus operandi may change however.

Now if you controlled all of kashmir, it would be a different ball game, and I would be tempted to agree with you.



> Really? I'd love to see that happen....but I don't believe for a moment that Balochistan is going to get autonomy.



It won't probably get autonomy outside of the Pakistani constitution, which is not something I support anyway. What the PPP and PML-N have both indicated they want to do however is take the subjects in the Concurrent List (that is the list of fields the Central and provincial government are responsible for - currently a large part of those fields fall under the central government) and transfer a large number of subjects to all the provincial governments, leaving things like defence, foreign affairs etc. in the control of the central government.

This is something every province has been demanding, even Punjab.

We will have to wait and see if the PML-N and PPP coalition can get through the judiciary issue intact. They have both indicated support for reducing central government control, so a united coalition of the two might be able to do it.


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

Stealth Assassin said:


> You must remember that Kashmiris weren't always hostile to India. A big reason why Kashmiris grew hostile was because the '87 elections were rigged.
> 
> Before 1980s, most Kashmiris were pro-India, and with time, things will change again.


Yeah, in Bollywood movies. Kashmiris opted to join Pakistan before and after Hari Singh signed for accession. 

Even if Kashmiris were "only" anti-india after the 80's, things will not return to normal. Things will never be the same again, no matter how much of an economic uplift is given to kashmir.


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## asaad-ul-islam

As always, Agnostic, you have a nice way to end the discussion. Yet, I have to disagree with Musharraf's proposition for a autonomous joint rule of Kashmir.

I can't think of any example of where this might be happening. india will not budge, even though we have eased the pressure on india. The solution has always remained the same, to hold a plebiscite, whether it's by politics or fist.


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## Flintlock

asaad-ul-islam said:


> Yeah, in Bollywood movies. Kashmiris opted to join Pakistan before and after Hari Singh signed for accession.
> 
> Even if Kashmiris were "only" anti-india after the 80's, things will not return to normal. Things will never be the same again, no matter how much of an economic uplift is given to kashmir.



Not necessarily....

At the time of Independence, South India was anti-Delhi. That has changed completely, since today South Indians claim to be the representatives of India 

Punjab was anti-India in the 80's, thanks to some help from Benazir, but now is completely pro-India....and Punjabis are the most enthusiastic campaigners for India abroad...especially in the US.


North-East had anti-India groups, but things are changing there because of development, esp. in Assam.

The biggest hindrance to the integration of Kashmir into India is probably relgion. If hardline Islam takes hold in Kashmir, then it will be bad news for not only India, but Kashmir itself.

Remember, Kashmiris had a very unique culture. They had folk dances, wore colourful costumes, coexisted with Hindus and Buddhists and were generally a very laid-back people.
That changed, once the extremists began to exert their influence. 

Today, the traditional dresses have been largely replaced by burkhas, and anecdotal evidence says that mosque attendance has exploded...

So lets see how it works out...


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## mujahideen

Stealth Assassin said:


> Punjab was anti-India in the 80's, thanks to some help from Benazir, but now is completely pro-India....and Punjabis are the most enthusiastic campaigners for India abroad...especially in the US.



My friends how did Benazir get into all this. She was under house arrest during the 80s, then went into exile. I think you need to do research. The fact is she did not want to harm India in any way because India was funding her movement against President Zia. Her brother Murtaza was being trained by RAW. RAW helped him to form his terrorist group Al-Zulfikar, RAW recruited members for him. Benazir had nothing to do with the situation in Indian Punjab, it was in fact President Zia who was funding the Sikhs. We funded the Sikh and in return India funded the Bhuttos.


----------



## Flintlock

mujahideen said:


> My friends how did Benazir get into all this. She was under house arrest during the 80s, then went into exile. I think you need to do research. The fact is she did not want to harm India in any way because India was funding her movement against President Zia. Her brother Murtaza was being trained by RAW. RAW helped him to form his terrorist group Al-Zulfikar, RAW recruited members for him. Benazir had nothing to do with the situation in Indian Punjab, it was in fact President Zia who was funding the Sikhs. We funded the Sikh and in return India funded the Bhuttos.



Oops....my mistake....

India funded the Bhuttos? Really? I am finding it rather hard to believe that...


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

*Pakistan has the legitimate claim to Kashmir*

by Steven Meurrens


At the beginning of 2002, Pakistan and India appeared to be on the verge of a nuclear war. This was the latest stage in over fifty years of conflict between the two nations. The greatest issue in their relationship has been the disputed province of Kashmir. The hostilities began in October 1947, when the Hindu ruler of Kashmir signed a treaty giving his Muslim province to India, which is predominantly Hindu. Pakistans rejection of this agreement would lead to a war with India shortly thereafter. The province would be partitioned between India and Pakistan in 1949, and the established border remains today. Both nations still claim all of Kashmir. The situation has been complicated by the religious differences in the region between Muslims and Hindus. Further exemplifying the problem are the various versions of history that both sides present in their arguments for ownership of Kashmir. When the previous and current situations are analyzed, it is clear that it is Pakistan that has the legitimate claim to Kashmir, as Indias claim is based on fraud and violence. 

Kashmir is located in the northern part of the Indian Subcontinent, occupying an area of 220,000 km². As per the United Nations cease-fire agreement that partitioned Kashmir on January 1, 1949, India occupies a majority of the disputed region. India has organized its territory as the state of Kashmir and Jammu. The capital is Srinagar. Pakistani controlled Kashmir is referred to as Azad (free) Kashmir. The capital is Muzaffarabad. Historically, the significant districts of Kashmir are the Poonch, Srinagar District, and Mirpur. The current population of the entire region is thirteen million, of which approximately sixty-four percent are Muslim. The demographics have barely changed since the dispute began in 1947. In 1941, of the four million people living in Kashmir, over 3,200,000 practiced Islam. Though a clear majority of the citizens were Muslim, the region was ruled by a Hindu prince.

The Maharaja Hari Singh presided over Kashmir during the end of British imperialism in South Asia. During the British partition of the Indian Subcontinent in 1947, the princely states were supposed to accede to either India or newly created Pakistan. Hari Singh wanted neither, and delayed his decision. Both Jawaharel Nehru, the leader of India, and Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan, urged the maharaja to join their respective nation. In early September, a Muslim rebellion seeking unity with Pakistan erupted in the Poonch district. India accused Pakistan of sending Pashtun fighters into the Poonch to sabotage the pending decision of Hari Singh. By mid October, the rebel army was only four kilometres away from capturing Srinagar. It was at this point of desperation, that Hari Singh reportedly signed the Treaty of Accession with India. The Indian army would enter the province the same day, and would be at war with Pakistan within a month. The validity of this treaty would be the basis of both nations claim to Kashmir. 

Historians often disagree with one and other about the interpretation of the dispute in Kashmir. There are three main concepts that are used by supporters of India to justify Indias occupation of Kashmir. The first is that because of the Treaty of Accession, Indias actions and claim to Kashmir are legal. A.G. Noorani, a lawyer in New Delhi, whose Indian bias has clouded his judgment about the Indian claim, and author of The Kashmir Question, summarized Indias long-standing stance regarding the treaty in his books introduction:

 Kashmir is legally [because of the Treaty] a part of India, Pakistan is therefore an aggressor and must be asked to vacate her aggression; having become a part of the country, Kashmir cannot claim self-determination; her accession is final and irrevocable as there is in law no such thing as a provisional accession. 

The appeals India has made to the United Nations all reflect this attitude. As Nehru argued in a complaint issued to the UN in 1948, because India has a document that states Kashmir belongs to India, all Pakistani claims and actions in the region are void and aggressive, as well as demonstrating a blatant disregard to international law and procedure. 

In an effort to gain public support from the international community, India has rallied behind two popular slogans. These are: democracy and multi-culturalism. As an article in the January 19th, 2002, edition of the Economist indicated, these have had considerable success in brandishing Pakistan as an evil, rogue state. After all, India promotes itself as a secular democracy. India embraces its minorities. Pakistan, on the other hand, has always been an Islamic State, has been ruled by successive military governments, and tarnished by civil war. The Kashmiri people, India argues, would be better suited in a secular nation that embraces the rule of law. Legality. Democracy. Multi-culturalism. These are the three concepts that form the basis of the Indian claim to Kashmir. The relevance and truth of these ideas are questionable. 

Historians supportive of the Pakistani claim believe that the Treaty of Accession is void because of the conditions and historical discrepancies pertaining to its signing. India acted aggressively and irresponsibly in forcing the agreement with a leader that did not represent the majority of his population. The Maharajah was a Hindu prince. During the time of accession, seventy-seven percent of the Kashmiri people were Muslim. Indian historians, on the other hand, have debated even the importance and truth of this fact. Prem Shankar Jha, editor of the Hindustan Times, and author of the book Kashmir: 1947, writes that the figure is exaggerated and misleading because the Muslims of Kashmir belonged to at least three frequently antagonistic sects, two-thirds sharing a strongly synergetic tradition of Islam that had a good deal in common with the Bhaki tradition in Hinduism. Mushtaqur Rahman, author of the brilliant analytical Divided Kashmir, counters the relevancy of this claim by stating that while the Muslims consisted of different sects, their beliefs separated from them other Muslims no less so than the differences between Kashmiri Hindus and Indian Hindus. Indeed, these Hindus possess their own dialect, dress, and food. In response to questions over why the demographics of Kashmir have changed (Kashmir is now estimated to be 64% Muslim.), he reminds readers that it is estimated that over 4 million Muslims have fled Indian occupied Kashmir since 1947. Despite the exodus, civilians in Indian controlled Kashmir still have great ethnic similarities to Pakistan, as noted by famed historian Richard Reeves, in Passage to Peshawar describing his experience in the region: When I crossed from Azad Kashmir, in Pakistan, to Kashmir in India - across the disputed northeastern border established after the countries 1948 war - the people looked the same. They should have, because many of them were cousins of Pakistanis and practiced the same religion. In the end these discrepancies and arguments pertaining to how Islam is divided into many types is merely nitpicking by supporters of India, highlighting facts that have no significance to the larger picture. In a census taken in 1941, of 4,021,698 people living in the entire region of Kashmir, 3,101,247 of them were Muslim. In the turbulent Kashmiri Valley (site of most of the recent violence in Kashmir) 94% ( 1,615, 478 to 1,728,705) of the citizens were Muslim. Under the provisions of the divisions of the Indian Subcontinent, regions that were mostly Muslim were designed to accede with Pakistan. Thus, in the natural course of history, if had India not acted irresponsibly, and the Kashmiris' had a leader that represented their interest, Kashmir would have gone to Pakistan. 

The Maharajah Hari Singh never represented the will of his subjects, creating tension between the Hindu rulers and the Muslim population of Kashmir. Muslims in Kashmir detested him, as they were heavily taxed and had grown tired of his insensitivity to their religious concerns. The Dogra rule (the name of the municipal governments) had excluded Muslims from the civil service and the armed services. Islamic religious ceremonies were taxed. Historically, Muslims were banned from organizing politically, which would only be tolerated beginning in the 1930s. In 1931, in response to a sermon that had tones of opposition to the government, the villages of Jandial, Makila, and Dana were ransacked and destroyed by the Dogra army, with their inhabitants burned alive. A legislative assembly, with no real power, was created in January, 1947. It issued one statement that represented the will of the Muslim people: After carefully considering the position, the conference has arrived at the conclusion that accession of the State to Pakistan is absolutely necessary in view of the geographic, economic, linguistic, cultural and religious conditionsIt is therefore necessary that the State should accede to Pakistan. 

This is one of the rare instances that an elected block of the people of Kashmir had been given the chance to speak. Representing the subjects who elected them, they sought accession with Muslim Pakistan. Prem Nath Bazaz, founder of the Kashmir Socialist Party in 1943, a reliable primary source of history, reiterated that a majority of Kashmiris were against the decision of the Maharajah in his book, The History of The Struggle of Freedom In Kashmir. He writes, The large majority of the population of the State, almost the entire Muslim community and an appreciable number of non Muslims was totally against the Maharjah declaring accession to India. This statement, and the decision reached by the legislative assembly are important because they dispel any belief that the Kashmiris' religious ties with Pakistan did not necessarily indicate a will to unite. Indeed, the ethnic bond between Kashmir and Pakistan influenced a majority of the people to seek accession with Pakistan. The Hindu Maharajah would not listen, and continued to delay his decision about which nation to join. Still, even though Hari Singhs actions were wrong, they do not compare to the deplorable pressure and tactics applied by India to capture Kashmir. 

India relentlessly pressured Hari Singh to accede to India. While Pakistan agreed to sign a standstill agreement that would continue trade, travel, and transportation with Kashmir, India refused until the Maharajah did as they wished. India encouraged neighbouring provinces to pressure Kashmir to accede to India. Nehru said that if Kashmir joined Pakistan the chances of resuming any diplomatic or economic relationship with India would be remote. Pakistan took no such action. While the traditional view has been that Nehru sent his army into Kashmir only after the Treaty of Accession, there is growing evidence that this is not true. Alaistar Lamb, author of a series of books on Kashmir, has discovered evidence based on declassified military papers that India had Patalia gunners at the Sringar airport by October 17 1947, and has scoffed at the Indian apologists who propose that Indias invasion of Kashmir was the triumph of improvisation. Instead, he states that India had troops mobilized for an invasion of Kashmir by October 25th This would mean that Indias army was in Kashmir before the decision of the Mahrajah. With Indias army already in Kashmir it is obvious why the Maharajah would hand his country over to India. Because of the injustice displayed by India, the Treaty of Accession, if it was even signed, is nullified and void. 


India claims to represent democracy in the dispute with Pakistan over Kashmir. If upholding democracy was indeed Indias motivation in their actions over Kashmir, one has to question why a plebiscite has never been issued. The Kashmiris have always demanded one, and India has always resisted. Even Nehru has conceded that Kashmiris do not want to remain under Indian occupation. When asked about never holding a plebiscite in Kashmir in 1965, Nehru responded, Kashmir would vote to join Pakistan and we would lose it. No Indian government responsible for agreeing to a plebiscite would survive. This logic is more fitting for describing an autocracy, not a nation claming to represent democracy. As for the issue of whether Pakistan is a theocratic state, it certainly cannot be, as its political power is not held by priests and religious heads claiming to represent a God. Islam may be the only official religion of Pakistan, but that does not warrant the title of a totalitarian theocracy. The historians supporting India have no grounds for saying that India has behaved better because it states itself to be the only democracy. 

Apologists for Nehru and the successive governments of India have also made the peculiar claim that if Kashmir were to vote to succeed from India, it would lead to other revolts and demands for independence in other dissatisfied regions of India. Victoria Schofield, author of the comprehensive Kashmir in the Crossfire, has researched and analyzed the response of Kashmiris bewildered that a secular democracy would use this argument. Kashmiri independence groups have pointed out that it is the only region in India that has already been granted a plebiscite (that never materialised) in a United Nations Security Council Resolution that was actually approved by India. Even if politicians are worried about the possibility of India disintegrating because of losing Kashmir, this does not warrant the suppression of the Muslims in Kashmir, and the Kashmiris are indeed oppressed. Amnesty International has repeatedly decried atrocities committed against separatists in Kashmir, and they estimate that 34,000 civilians have been killed. 

India basing its claim on adhering to diplomatic rule of law and the decision of a nations leader is made even more laughable because of its actions in Hyderabad and Junadgh. Hyderabad, located in central India, was the opposite of Kashmir. There, a Muslim ruled over a Hindu majority, and did not want to join India. The Indians did not accept the leaders wishes and invaded Hyderabad in September of 1948. In Junadgh, the situation was similar. Nehru forced the ruler of Junadgh to hold a plebiscite after the latter claimed that he could not make the decision because he did not represent his people. That Nehru agreed to the principles of self-determination and ethnicity when it served his interests, and not in Kashmir, illustrates the hypocrisy of the Indian claim to Kashmir. As Mushtaqur Rahman reiterates in his book, it even renders the Indian claim illogical: 

Their arguments were that it made no sense geographically, that a ruler had acceded to a region of different religion then his people. Logically then, India should have supported the Muslims majority of Jammu and Kashmir and let them join Pakistan.
Mr. Bazaz was also mystified by the hypocrisy in Indias actions, as he writes:

Obviously in accordance with the basic principle governing the partition the consideration of the religion professed by people in different parts the Jammu and Kashmir State, whose population is preponderating (77 percent) Muslim - almost the same as is the ratio of Hindus in Junagad and Hyderabad to the total populations of these States - should legitimately and unconditionally belong to Pakistan and must in fairness go to it.342

What the hypocrisy and determination of India to take Kashmir at the expense of logic and the will of Kashmiris does illustrate is the underlying motivation of India to serve Nehrus interests. Nehrus family heritage originates in Kashmir. This appears to be one of the only two possible reasons India has so forcefully demanded it be given Kashmir. The second cause is that of deep resentment over the creation of Pakistan.

If one were to base Indias claim on Kashmir on actual principals that are present in its actions, they would be: pride, resentment, and aggression. The government of Indias desperate attempt to validate its hold on Kashmir is merely just India rejecting the concept of Pakistan in general. Nehru and the government of Indias rejection of Pakistan is well known. Liaquat Ali Khan, the vice-president of Pakistan during accession, reiterated this in a telegram to Nehru when he wrote, India never wholeheartedly accepted the partition scheme but her leaders paid lip service to it merely in order to get the British troops out of the country. India is out to destroy the state of Pakistan . Indeed, this attitude would explain why India visibly rejected the mandate of the creation of Pakistan, as well as the common sense of ethnicity in Kashmir. The Indian resentment of the creation of Pakistan is not just a rumour started by Karachi. Even A.G. Noorami, sympathetic to the Indian claim to Kashmir, writes, We are a secular State and we do not believe in the two-nation theory. But is it necessary for that purpose to retain Kashmir in India against the will of her people? Perhaps most telling of this pride and hatred towards Pakistan is the response given by a representative of the Indian government to peace talks offered by Pakistani President Jinnah, which was, for the prime minister to come crawling to Jinnah, when India was stronger would be a step which the Indian people would never forgive. With such sentiment, it is little wonder that peace in Kashmir has been hard to achieve. 

India continues to use its military superiority over Pakistan to resist negotiating any terms of peace with Kashmir. Unfortunately, as noted by Time correspondent Edward Desmond, the international community shows no signs of challenging Indias claims. No country was willing to risk its entire agenda with New Delhi over the Kashmiri cause, especially when it was clear that New Delhi had no intentions of backing down. 

Due to the contradictions and falsifications that India has used to present its argument towards ownership of Kashmir, and its inaction towards holding a plebiscite in Kashmir, it cannot reasonably be argued that India has the more legitimate claim to Kashmir. In reality, India has kept its army in Kashmir to maintain hostile relations with Pakistan because of the formers rejection of the two-nation theory that created Pakistan. India cannot claim to represent the interests of the Kashmiri people and their democratic rights because it refuses to let them decide their future. Its relentless pressure on the Maharajah, as well as Hari Singhs inability to properly lead, nullifies the relevance and significance of the Treaty of Accession. That the Indian army landed in Kashmir even before Hari Singh had conceded his nation to India proves it never intended to respect his decision anyways. India has ignored the rules set out in the partition of the sub-continent, dividing the region by ethnicity. Instead, the leaders of India have sought only to use Kashmir to illustrate their superiority in the subcontinent. As long as India continues to act on flawed and aggressive notions, the Kashmir conflict will not be resolved. 



Bibliography

1. Alastair, Lamb. Kashmir : A Disputed Legacy. Hertingfordbury: Roxford Books, 1991. 

2. Bazaz, Prem Nath. The History of the Struggle for Freedom in Kashmir. New Delhi. Kashmir Publishing Company. 1954. 

3. Noorani, Abdul Gafoor Abdul Majeed. The Kashmir Question. Bombay: Manaktalas, 1964. 

4. Rahman, Mushtaqur. Divided Kashmir : Old Problems, New Opportunities for India, Pakistan, and the Kashmiri People. Boldour, Colorado: Lynne Rienner Publishers, 1996.

5. Reeves, Richard. Passage to Peshawar : Pakistan: Between the Hindu Kush and the Arabian Sea. New York : Simon and Schuster, 1984. 

6. Jha, Prem Shankar. Kashmir 1947 : Rival Versions of History. Bombay: Oxford University Press, 1996. 

7. Schofield, Victoria. Kashmir in the Crossfire. New York: I.B. Taurus, 1996

8. The Standoff at the Roof of the World. The Economist. 19 January, 2002.

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## asaad-ul-islam

Stealth Assassin said:


> Not necessarily....
> 
> At the time of Independence, South India was anti-Delhi. That has changed completely, since today South Indians claim to be the representatives of India
> 
> Punjab was anti-India in the 80's, thanks to some help from Benazir, but now is completely pro-India....and Punjabis are the most enthusiastic campaigners for India abroad...especially in the US.
> 
> 
> North-East had anti-India groups, but things are changing there because of development, esp. in Assam.
> 
> The biggest hindrance to the integration of Kashmir into India is probably relgion. If hardline Islam takes hold in Kashmir, then it will be bad news for not only India, but Kashmir itself.
> 
> Remember, Kashmiris had a very unique culture. They had folk dances, wore colourful costumes, coexisted with Hindus and Buddhists and were generally a very laid-back people.
> That changed, once the extremists began to exert their influence.
> 
> Today, the traditional dresses have been largely replaced by burkhas, and anecdotal evidence says that mosque attendance has exploded...
> 
> So lets see how it works out...


it's nice to see your points on the other "separatists" hotspots, yet you basically have nothing to say for Kashmir, except that Islam is the problem.

Muslim Kashmiris resented the dogra rule which went against their religious rights. From this, we can most certainly assume that the Kashmiri people wanted to retain their religious ideology. 

This is exactly why India will not hold a plebiscite, based on the fear that Kashmiris will not only break away, but will join Pakistan.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

asaad-ul-islam said:


> it's nice to see your points on the other "separatists" hotspots, yet you basically have nothing to say for Kashmir, except that Islam is the problem.
> 
> Muslim Kashmiris resented the dogra rule which went against their religious rights. From this, we can most certainly assume that the Kashmiri people wanted to retain their religious ideology.
> 
> This is exactly why India will not hold a plebiscite, based on the fear that Kashmiris will not only break away, but will join Pakistan.



I also disagree with Stealth's analogies because none of the other "hot spots" has the same historical background and dynamics of kashmir - they do not have another sovereign nation arguing in favor of the separatist cause, another nation in favor of their right to self-determination ostensibly providing that right to other Kashmiris on land that it controls, another nation that has the backing of the United Nations in arguing for self-determination.

Ideologically and historically Kashmir is very different from the other situations mentioned.

Again, were India in control of the entire Kashmir valley, it would be a different story.


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## Flintlock

asaad-ul-islam said:


> it's nice to see your points on the other "separatists" hotspots, yet you basically have nothing to say for Kashmir, except that Islam is the problem.
> 
> Muslim Kashmiris resented the dogra rule which went against their religious rights. From this, we can most certainly assume that the Kashmiri people wanted to retain their religious ideology.



On what basis are you saying that Kashmiris resented Dogra rule? 

Obviously, Kashmiris want to retain their religious ideology....which is Islam...and India isn't stopping from doing that, is it?



> This is exactly why India will not hold a plebiscite, based on the fear that Kashmiris will not only break away, but will join Pakistan.



Well, the official reason is that the plebiscite applied to all of kashmir, including the Pakistani part....so if Pakistan isn't ready for it, why should India bother?


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## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I also disagree with Stealth's analogies because none of the other "hot spots" has the same historical background and dynamics of kashmir - they do not have another sovereign nation arguing in favor of the separatist cause, another nation in favor of their right to self-determination ostensibly providing that right to other Kashmiris on land that it controls, another nation that has the backing of the United Nations in arguing for self-determination.
> 
> Ideologically and historically Kashmir is very different from the other situations mentioned.
> 
> Again, were India in control of the entire Kashmir valley, it would be a different story.



I"m arguing that in the long run, Pakistan will agree to make the LOC the international border. 

Btw...when did Pakistan ask its kashmiris if they want to be a part of Pakistan?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Stealth Assassin said:


> I"m arguing that in the long run, Pakistan will agree to make the LOC the international border.
> 
> Btw...when did Pakistan ask its kashmiris if they want to be a part of Pakistan?


Even the solution of an "autonomous" Kashmir does pretty much that since Laddakh, Jammu and the NA's would remain in India and Pakistan respectively - but we shall have to wait and see how things work out.

We haven't made them a part of Pakistan. Its all about perceptions. We haven't integrated Kashmir into Pakistan (despite the criticism of many Kashmiris) because we hold to the policy that there needs to be an independently held plebiscite in the *entire * Kashmir region. We are not interested in solutions that divide Kashmir (which is what holding a plebiscite solely in AK would entail).

Officially Pakistan is ready to allow self-determination to *all* the Kashmiris, if India agrees - until such time they are free to live in the autonomous entity of Azad Kashmir.

From a "winning hearts and minds" perspective, India doesn't hold a candle to Pakistan's position.


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## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> We haven't mad them a part of Pakistan. Its all about perceptions. We haven't integrated Kashmir into Pakistan (despite the criticism of many Kashmiris) because we hold to the policy that there needs to be an independently held plebiscite in the *entire * Kashmir region. We are not interested in solutions that divide Kashmir (which is what holding a plebiscite solely in AK would entail).
> 
> Officially Pakistan is ready to allow self-determination to *all* the Kashmiris, if India agrees - until such time they are free to live in the autonomous entity of Azad Kashmir.
> 
> From a "winning hearts and minds" perspective, India doesn't hold a candle to Pakistan's position.



Really? Is Pakistan ready to give up its "Jugular Vein"?

I seriously doubt it. 

If anything, Pakistan would want to keep its part, and hence its leverage, over india, as well as its border with China.


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## asaad-ul-islam

Stealth Assassin said:


> On what basis are you saying that Kashmiris resented Dogra rule?


are you trying to imply here, that kashmiri muslims lived peacefully and obediently during the hindu raja's rule? 



Stealth Assassin said:


> Obviously, Kashmiris want to retain their religious ideology....which is Islam...and India isn't stopping from doing that, is it?


It's not only islam that scares india, it's the ideology that muslims should unite with other muslims. Kashmiris would have joined Pakistan, if given the chance.




Stealth Assassin said:


> Well, the official reason is that the plebiscite applied to all of kashmir, including the Pakistani part....so if Pakistan isn't ready for it, why should India bother?


See, Pakistan is ready for it. that's why we request a plebiscite because we know that kashmiris will undoubtedly join us.


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

Stealth Assassin said:


> Really? Is Pakistan ready to give up its "Jugular Vein"?
> I seriously doubt it.
> If anything, Pakistan would want to keep its part, and hence its leverage, over india, as well as its border with China.


even if pakistan gave up the northern areas along with india giving up ladakh and so forth, it would in no way harm us. An independent kashmir would also fall into pakistan's interests. through our influence, we would have access to the chinese border and the indus river.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Stealth Assassin said:


> Really? Is Pakistan ready to give up its "Jugular Vein"?
> 
> I seriously doubt it.
> 
> If anything, Pakistan would want to keep its part, and hence its leverage, over india, as well as its border with China.



Its not about what you "think" Pakistan will give up -its what our official policy is, and that is what the Kashmiris have been hearing us advocate for years, without any major change, that the wishes of the Kashmiris must be respected, and that is the view that is projected, not analysis about jugular veins - which by the way is a self defeating argument since ceding Kashmir would only occur in case of some solution to the Kashmir dispute, which means there won't be any hostility between India and Pakistan, and hence no question of "Jugular veins".

And we are only talking about the Kashmir valley here (AK from Pakistan's side) - not the NA's or Jammu and Laddakh.


----------



## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Its not about what you "think" Pakistan will give up -its what our official policy is, and that is what the Kashmiris have been hearing us advocate for years, without any major change, that the wishes of the Kashmiris must be respected, and that is the view that is projected, not analysis about jugular veins - which by the way is a self defeating argument since ceding Kashmir would only occur in case of some solution to the Kashmir dispute, which means there won't be any hostility between India and Pakistan, and hence no question of "Jugular veins".



As far as I know, different Pakistani leaders have taken different stands over the years.

The policy has changed from all-out invasion, to militancy, to cover terrorist acts, to assertions that Kashmir is an integral part of Pakistan. 
Musharraf had his own policy, but he didn't last long enough to put anything into practice.

What India says is this: As long as Pakistan supports terrorism in Kashmir, India doesn't trust the sincerety of Pakistan. 
Remember, Pakistan tried to (covertly) invade Kashmir as recently as 1999. In sucha scenario, how is India supposed to trust her?

Maybe I'm not updated as far as the official pakistan policy is concerned. 
Can you tell me what Zardari and Nawaz Sharif have to say on the issue?


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Stealth Assassin said:


> As far as I know, different Pakistani leaders have taken different stands over the years.
> 
> The policy has changed from all-out invasion, to militancy, to cover terrorist acts, to assertions that Kashmir is an integral part of Pakistan.
> Musharraf had his own policy, but he didn't last long enough to put anything into practice.
> 
> Maybe I'm not updated as far as the official pakistan policy is concerned.
> Can you tell me what Zardari and Nawaz Sharif have to say on the issue?



Prime Minister Gillani (not Zardari or Nawas Sharif)



> May 1 (Bloomberg) -- Pakistan wants ``result-oriented'' talks with India on the disputed Himalayan territory of Kashmir, the main issue of dispute between the South Asian neighbors, Pakistani Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gillani said.
> 
> ``We want friendly relations with all countries, including India,'' the official Associated Press of Pakistan cited Gillani as saying during a visit yesterday to Muzaffarabad, capital of the Pakistani-controlled part of Kashmir.
> Bloomberg.com: Worldwide



Regardless of the tactics Pakistan has utilized, Pakistan's position has always been the same:



> A settlement to the Kashmir issue won't be viable unless it addresses *the aspirations of the Kashmiri people*, he said.



That position articulated above has been constant, and that is where we win the battle over "hearts and minds".


----------



## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And we are only talking about the Kashmir valley here (AK from Pakistan's side) - not the NA's or Jammu and Laddakh.



BTW, wasn't the plebiscite supposed to apply to the entire kashmir, including 

Ladakh, Jammu and Aksai Chin?


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

Stealth Assassin said:


> As far as I know, different Pakistani leaders have taken different stands over the years.
> 
> The policy has changed from all-out invasion, to militancy, to cover terrorist acts, to assertions that Kashmir is an integral part of Pakistan.
> Musharraf had his own policy, but he didn't last long enough to put anything into practice.


Pakistan's policy has pretty much been the same, support for a plebiscite or just plain independence. 



Stealth Assassin said:


> What India says is this: As long as Pakistan supports terrorism in Kashmir, India doesn't trust the sincerety of Pakistan.
> Remember, Pakistan tried to (covertly) invade Kashmir as recently as 1999. In sucha scenario, how is India supposed to trust her?
> 
> Maybe I'm not updated as far as the official pakistan policy is concerned.
> Can you tell me what Zardari and Nawaz Sharif have to say on the issue?


I seriously doubt pakistan would have invaded kashmir in kargil to annex the entire region. No air support or naval battle occurred, it was far from a full-out war which would really determine the fate of kashmir.

India forced junagadh to hold a plebiscite, they pretty much got what they wanted. Is it not hypocrisy, india does not apply the same to kashmir?


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> What India says is this: As long as Pakistan supports terrorism in Kashmir, India doesn't trust the sincerety of Pakistan.
> Remember, Pakistan tried to (covertly) invade Kashmir as recently as 1999. In sucha scenario, how is India supposed to trust her?



I think this question of trust is an essential one to address. Pakistan has taken "non-diplomatic" measures because it believes India doesn't really want to address the issue. 

You said it yourself, "we will stay in Kashmir until we can integrate the population, and then if we fail we might come back to discuss" (paraphrasing your comments). 

With positions like that, there really is no reason for Pakistan to trust India's sincerity, and it obviates the need for diplomacy and dialog since your position indicates that you are engaging in diplomacy only to waste time, not for finding solutions.


----------



## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Regardless of the tactics Pakistan has utilized, Pakistan's position has always been the same:



That's not true. Pakistan used to insist that Kashmir belongs to it...I'm not sure about how and when the position changed, but it did change.

Also, regardless of the name "Azad Kashmir" , AK isn't exactly free in any sense of the word.
Technically, Indian kashmir is a lot more free than the Pakistani one.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Stealth Assassin said:


> BTW, wasn't the plebiscite supposed to apply to the entire kashmir, including
> 
> Ladakh, Jammu and Aksai Chin?



This is one of the solutions advocated, that seems more feasible than a full plebiscite, since amount of territory that would be potentially lost by either side will be minimal, and not bear any major strategic implications.


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

the point is stealth, as you and some other indian members have mentioned before, India will not let go of territory. It simply comes down to plain force, yet the point of this discussion is to brush off any ridiculous bollywood claims that kashmiris are in favour for india.

for the future I see ahead, Pakistan and India will continue to support insurgencies against each other. the question arises, "can pakistan take over kashmir?"

Well, we'll just have to see in the future. pakistan is now in danger against a far more powerful force on our other side of the border. Will pakistan be able to withstand the pressure?


----------



## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I think this question of trust is an essential one to address. Pakistan has taken "non-diplomatic" measures because it believes India doesn't really want to address the issue.
> 
> You said it yourself, "we will stay in Kashmir until we can integrate the population, and then if we fail we might come back to discuss" (paraphrasing your comments).



Well yeah, its a perfectly reasonable position.

If Kashmir returns to normalcy and development takes place, then there is no need to change things.

However, if things don't work out as planned, (and Pakistan isn't involved in any of the trouble) then India will consider a different option.

Its a far better position than "We'll pretend to care about kashmiris while we covertly send over Afghan fighters to bomb them"



> With positions like that, there really is no reason for Pakistan to trust India's sincerity, and it obviates the need for diplomacy and dialog since your position indicates that you are engaging in diplomacy only to waste time, not for finding solutions.



The fact is, that all the while when India was "wasting time", so was Pakistan.

I ask this: If Pakistan was so sincere about giving freedom to Kashmir, why didn't it apply these principles to iAK?

Besides, by creating unrest and distrust in the valley, it didn't allow India the chance to integrate the valley at all.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Stealth Assassin said:


> That's not true. Pakistan used to insist that Kashmir belongs to it...I'm not sure about how and when the position changed, but it did change.
> 
> Also, regardless of the name "Azad Kashmir" , AK isn't exactly free in any sense of the word.
> Technically, Indian kashmir is a lot more free than the Pakistani one.


When did the UN resolutions first mandate a plebiscite? I can't remember off hand.

I refer to AK as "autonomous", which it is to a large part - and your argument over "free Indian Kashmir" is one of technicalities, since the population regards any control under India as "occupation". 

What they have are "rights", not freedom. But this discussion (anout which side is more free) is somewhat tangential - it is the perception and official position of each country that matters.


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

i think i should leave now, i'm started to look like a freak who has no life. Look at how much posts I have.


----------



## Flintlock

asaad-ul-islam said:


> the point is stealth, as you and some other indian members have mentioned before, India will not let go of territory. It simply comes down to plain force, yet the point of this discussion is to brush off any ridiculous bollywood claims that kashmiris are in favour for india.
> 
> for the future I see ahead, Pakistan and India will continue to support insurgencies against each other. the question arises, "can pakistan take over kashmir?"
> 
> Well, we'll just have to see in the future. pakistan is now in danger against a far more powerful force on our other side of the border. Will pakistan be able to withstand the pressure?



The point is, that Pakistan doesn't want Kashmir to be a part of India, and it has tried to wrest the region by hook or crook. 

As far as I'm concerned, India hasn't supported any insurgencies in Paksitan to any appreciable degree.

If Pakistan continues to terrorize Kashmir, as I said earlier, India will simply clamp down harder and all opportunity will be lost.

Do you realize, that at this moment, formally pro-India parties are actually talking about separatism? This is true freedom of speech. I wonder if Pakistan has been able to offer this to any of its insurgency-ridden territories.

You have to realize that Pakistan can't "wrest" kashmir from India. India is too strong for that. 

So IMO, the most viable option is to move towards making Loc the border.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Stealth Assassin said:


> Well yeah, its a perfectly reasonable position.
> 
> If Kashmir returns to normalcy and development takes place, then there is no need to change things.



Its disputed territory tat has divided a people - there needs to be a resolution to this dispute, You can't pretend it doesn't exist.


> However, if things don't work out as planned, (and Pakistan isn't involved in any of the trouble) then India will consider a different option.
> 
> Its a far better position than "We'll pretend to care about kashmiris while we covertly send over Afghan fighters to bomb them"


You can "improve things" once the kashmiris vote to be part of you. Till then why should we accept illegal Indian occupation of disputed territory, where India refuses to implement UNSC resolutions?




> I ask this: If Pakistan was so sincere about giving freedom to Kashmir, why didn't it apply these principles to iAK?



They are applied to an extent, they have autonomy and we are committed to giving them the right to self-determination as soon as India agrees. We cannot however pull out troops since that would mean that India would simply takeover.

Withdrawing troops and giving Kashmiris true freedom has to be part of a negotiated move between India and Pakistan.


> Besides, by creating unrest and distrust in the valley, it didn't allow India the chance to integrate the valley at all.


We don't recognize the territory as Indian. What we saw was a forcible attempt by the Indian military to subjugate the population and we were supporting a freedom movement against that subjugation.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> Do you realize, that at this moment, formally pro-India parties are actually talking about separatism? This is true freedom of speech. I wonder if Pakistan has been able to offer this to any of its insurgency-ridden territories.



Actually yes - Baluch and Sindhi nationalists are now also voicing similar "soft separatism" (provincial autonomy only - so a little different from Kashmir) claims.

But this argument is getting circular Stealth.

The trust issue remains on both sides. Eventually two democratic governments will have to get together and decide what policy to pursue in the greater interest of the Kashmiris and South Asia.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

asaad-ul-islam said:


> i think i should leave now, i'm started to look like a freak who has no life. Look at how much posts I have.



lol - that doesn't say much about me ...

I should leave too 

A week off before classes start again so not much to do.


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## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> When did the UN resolutions first mandate a plebiscite? I can't remember off hand.



Neither do I....but this isn't about UN resolutions.

I vividly remember watching the "Jugular vein" speech by ZA Bhutto, which is why I don't buy the idea that Pakistan has always supported Kashmiri freedom.



> I refer to AK as "autonomous", which it is to a large part - and your argument over "free Indian Kashmir" is one of technicalities, since the population regards any control under India as "occupation".



Oh and wait...you forgot a technicality:

"Azad Kashmir" is only a tiny part of the Pakistani region. The other huge part, called Northern Areas is directly under Pakistani rule.

Also there's the Trans-Karakoram tract, which Pakistan has gifted to China, further weakning its moral standing.

Maybe you are right...the Kashmiri separatists perhaps consider Pakistan the more favourable party....but that is only because of religion. Not because of any ground realities.

Here's a quote from Wikipedia:



> The Freedom in the World 2006 report categorized the Indian-administered Kashmir as "partly free", and Pakistan-administered Kashmir as well as the country of Pakistan "not free".






> What they have are "rights", not freedom. But this discussion (anout which side is more free) is somewhat tangential - it is the perception and official position of each country that matters.



That is perhaps the perception in the kashmir valley. But I believe that is mainly due to the rise of religious extremism, and the pathetic and unsafe conditions in the valley.

I think if Kashmiris are allowed a period of peace and development, they will change their minds.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Hari Singh appealed to the Indian government for military assistance and fled to India. He signed the Instrument of Accession, ceding Kashmir to India on October 26.

Indian and Pakistani forces thus fought their first war over Kashmir in 1947-48. India referred the dispute to the United Nations on 1 January. In a resolution dated August 13, 1948, the UN asked Pakistan to remove its troops, after which India was also to withdraw the bulk of its forces. 
A brief history of the Kashmir conflict - Telegraph


----------



## mujahideen

Salim said:


> Hari Singh appealed to the Indian government for military assistance and fled to India. He signed the Instrument of Accession, ceding Kashmir to India on October 26.
> Indian and Pakistani forces thus fought their first war over Kashmir in 1947-48. India referred the dispute to the United Nations on 1 January. In a resolution dated August 13, 1948, the UN asked Pakistan to remove its troops, after which India was also to withdraw the bulk of its forces.
> A brief history of the Kashmir conflict - Telegraph



Hyderabad and Jundagh also aceded to Pakistan, we mustn't forget this when talking about this conflict. Now as far withdrawing troops. Pakistan is partically outnumbered by Indian troops. The ratio is probably like 10 to 1 in India's favour(numbers of the top of my head). It must be noted Pakistan did start to move its troops back but in return India made no witdrawal. Now we or anyone else cant leave the field open, especially in a situation like this.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

Acceded?

Any Instruments of Accession?

As far as Junagadh is concerned, have you read the Dewan Bhutto's letter?


----------



## mujahideen

Salim said:


> Acceded?
> Any Instruments of Accession?
> As far as Junagadh is concerned, have you read the Dewan Bhutto's letter?



You cant deny it. Jundagh had officially acceded to Pakistan. Hyderabad was on the verge of agreeing to accede to Pakistan when India invaded. Hyderabad put in a complain at the U.N. which till date is pending their.
Would you like to post this letter you talk of please, I would just like to read it before further advancing my arguement.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

mujahideen said:


> You cant deny it. Jundagh had officially acceded to Pakistan. Hyderabad was on the verge of agreeing to accede to Pakistan when India invaded. Hyderabad put in a complain at the U.N. which till date is pending their.
> Would you like to post this letter you talk of please, I would just like to read it before further advancing my arguement.



Instrument of Accession is what each princely state gave.

Hyderabad and Junagad only expressed intent.

Hyderabad put in a complaint to the UN?

The letter, by the Dewan of Junagad, has been posted earlier on this forum. Google and you shall find.


----------



## mujahideen

Salim said:


> Instrument of Accession is what each princely state gave.
> Hyderabad and Junagad only expressed intent.
> Hyderabad out in a complaint to the UN?
> The letter, by the Dewan of Junagad, has been posted earlier on this forum. Google and you shall find.



Hyderabad expressed intent, but Jundagh's Instrument of accession was recieved signed and officially it was a part of Pakistan.
Hyderabad made a complaint that its territory was under attack by India. But when the government fell their was no one their to defend Hyderabad, but nonetheless the resulotion is still pending their.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

It may interest you to know that the Nizam signed the Instrument of Accession to India.

Junagad's signing the Instrument of Accession to Pakistan is news to me and Goggling has thrown up no indication that such an Instrument was signed.


----------



## mujahideen

Salim said:


> It may interest you to know that the Nizam signed the Instrument of Accession to India.
> Junagad's signing the Instrument of Accession to Pakistan is news to me and Goggling has thrown up no indication that such an Instrument was signed.



Looks like both of our informations are wrong. So where do we go from here. Continue to repeat the same thing or do something about it. Continue to fight. Continue to use the same old arguments over and over again. What is done is done, now how do we fix the mess, we have made?


----------



## Neo

Mujahideen,

Could you please support your Junagarh claim by official documentation?
Its new to me aswell and I'm curious to to hear your findings.

Thanks


----------



## UnitedPak

- Letter of Accession



> The International Commission of Jurists (ICJ), based in Geneva, recently passed a resolution proclaiming Kashmir's accession to India as null and void.



IHRC - Briefing: The Killing in Kashmir and the Terrorism Act 2000



> Moreover, further shedding doubt on the treatys validity, in 1995 Indian authorities claimed that the original copy of the treaty (letter of accession) was either stolen or lost.



SJIR: The Fate of Kashmir : International Law or Lawlessness?



> Alastair Lamb (in his book, Kashmir - A disputed legacy 1846-1990) points out that the Instrument of Accession could not have been signed by the Mahrajah on 26th October as he was travelling by road to Jammu (a distance of over 350 Km). There is no evidence to suggest that a meeting or communication of any kind took place on 26th October 1947. In fact it was on 27th October 1947 that the Mahrajah was informed by his MC Mahajan and VP Menon (who had flown into Srinagar), the the Instrument of Accession had already been negotiated in Dehli. The Mahrajah did not in fact sign the Instrument of Accession, if at all, until 27th October 1947. This sheds doubts on the actions of the Indian regime.



India's False Claim on Kashmir

Its a well known fact, the Maharaja of J&K was barely in control of the state. At best, he was in control of Jammu and Ladakh. (Link) So signing the Letter of Accession on behalf of the state that he barely controls is not recognized.



> Finally, there is some doubt as to whether the treaty was ever signed. International law clearly states that every treaty entered into by a member of the United Nations must be registered with the Secretariat of the United Nations. The Instrument of Accession was neither presented to the United Nations nor to Pakistan. While this does not void the treaty, it does mean that India cannot invoke the treaty before any organ of the United Nations.



SJIR: The Fate of Kashmir : International Law or Lawlessness?



> In his broadcast to the nation over All India Radio on 2nd November, 1947, Pandit Nehru said, "We are anxious not to finalise anything in a moment of crisis and without the fullest opportunity to be given to the people of Kashmir to have their say. It is for them ultimately to decide ------ And let me make it clear that it has been our policy that where there is a dispute about the accession of a state to either Dominion, the accession must be made by the people of that state. It is in accordance with this policy that we have added a proviso to the Instrument of Accession of Kashmir".



http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/misc/pledges.htm

Another blow to the Letter of Accession theory. So actually letter of accession validates Pakistan's stand that the people should be left to decide their fate.

Therefore, letter of accession is lost, if not lost, null (declared by ICJ, UN Resolutions and PM Jawaharlal Nehru), if not null, void by the very people its supposed to serve. Even if its not void, the provision of the letter of accession lets the people of J&K decide their fate (according to PM Jawaharlal Nehru).

- UN Resolutions

Before I discuss this, common sense says, both parties need to firstly, admit that they bind by the resolutions and are willing to implement it. Pakistan, wants a UN sponsored plebiscite. India does not, as yet. So there is violation by India in the first step itself.

- Acceptance of UN resolutions on J&K by India & Pakistan
- Implementation on the modalities of resolutions by India & Pakistan



> The London Economist stated that "the whole world can see that India, which claims the support of this majority [the Kashmiri people]...has been obstructing a holding of an internationally supervised plebis-cite."32



http://parep.org.sg/dangerinkashmir/unreps.htm



> Sir Owen Dixon, the United Nations Representative to the UNCIP, reported to the Security Council that,
> 
> In the end, I became convinced that Indias agreement would never be obtained to demilitarization in any such form, or to provisions governing the period of the plebiscite of any such character, as would in my opinion permit the plebiscite being conducted in conditions sufficiently guarding against intimidation, and other forms of abuse by which the freedom and fairness of the plebiscite might be imperiled.



SJIR: The Fate of Kashmir : International Law or Lawlessness?

This is the opinion of top UN officials on how serious is India in implementing UN resolutions.

Once India, agrees to adopt UN resolutions on J&K, Pakistan will remove its troops, while India needs to do the same.

Please look up, the beginning of the UN Resolution 38 (1948) adopted by the Security Council at its 229th Meeting held on 17 January 1948.



> RESOLUTION 39 (1948) SUBMITTED BY THE REPRESENTATIVE OF BELGIUM AND ADOPTED BY THE SECURITY COUNCIL AT ITS 230TH MEETING HELD ON 20 JANUARY, 1948. (DOCUMENT NO. S/654, DATED THE 20TH JANUARY, 1948)
> 
> A. A Commission of the Security Council is hereby established, composed of representatives of three Members of the United Nations, one to be selected by India, one to be selected by Pakistan, and the third to be designated by the two so selected.Each representative on the Commission shall be entitled to select his alternates and assistants.



http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc20jan48.htm

Here is the second resolution in J&K, as the first resolution contains nothing worthwhile. Has India adopted that resolution? This is just the first clause. There's no point getting to a second clause when the first one is not agreed to.

To sum it up:



> In his telegram to the Prime Minister of Pakistan, the Indian Prime Minister Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru said, "I should like to make it clear that the question of aiding Kashmir in this emergency is not designed in any way to influence the state to accede to India. Our view which we have repeatedly made public is that the question of accession in any disputed territory or state must be decided in accordance with wishes of people and we adhere to this view". (Telegram 402 Primin-2227 dated 27th October, 1947 to PM of Pakistan repeating telegram addressed to PM of UK).



http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/misc/pledges.htm


----------



## dabong1

Some sort of reply back to UnitedPak post would be good salim.....the indian side of the argument.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Alastair Lamb is a well know India baiter.

Further, it is juvenile to claim that A or B Maharaja had barely any control of the State.

It is like saying the Federal Govt of Pakistan has no control over FATA and NWFP and so it is not a part of Pakistan!!

If one has to go by anything, then it is the UNSC Resolution!

Read that!!


----------



## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Its disputed territory tat has divided a people - there needs to be a resolution to this dispute, You can't pretend it doesn't exist.



The same can be said about Punjab, Bengal, Balochistan, and FATA as well.

They are all single-ethnicity territories divided up among 2 nation states.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Stealth Assassin said:


> The same can be said about Punjab, Bengal, Balochistan, and FATA as well.
> 
> They are all single-ethnicity territories divided up among 2 nation states.



None of those examples fits the situation of kashmir.

Indian Punjab had its separatist movement, but it was based on grounds that Pakistani Punjab had nothing to do with - in essence Indian Punjab and Bengal are for all intents and purposes not the same provinces anymore. I feel no kinship with Sikhs I meet - I feel a lot more Kinship with Pakistani Muhajir and Pakistani Pashtun. Islam has essentially created its own unique identity.

The people of Balochistan and NWFP both willingly joined the Pakistani Federation - and I pointed this out earlier, that the dynamics behind the alienation amongst the average person (not the Sardars) are due to lack of development and too much central control.

Kashmir is disputed between two nations, it is divided between two nations (during the lifetime of the dispute, which forms a powerful narrative for the people).

Kashmiris were never given the chance to decide which nation they would be a part of. The solution endorsed by an independent and neutral body of great repute, the UNSC, and endorsed by Pakistan (and India at the time) is of letting the Kashmiris determine their own fate (this validates the separatist sentiment, since India denies this right that she endorsed herself). 

You cannot ignore the dynamics behind the issues, and just make comparisons.


----------



## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> None of those examples fits the situation of kashmir.
> 
> Indian Punjab had its separatist movement, but it was based on grounds that Pakistani Punjab had nothing to do with - in essence Indian Punjab and Bengal are for all intents and purposes not the same provinces anymore. I feel no kinship with Sikhs I meet - I feel a lot more Kinship with Pakistani Muhajir and Pakistani Pashtun. Islam has essentially created its own unique identity.
> 
> The people of Balochistan and NWFP both willingly joined the Pakistani Federation - and I pointed this out earlier, that the dynamics behind the alienation amongst the average person (not the Sardars) are due to lack of development and too much central control.
> 
> Kashmir is disputed between two nations, it is divided between two nations (during the lifetime of the dispute, which forms a powerful narrative for the people).



Then how do you explain:

Separatist movements in Balochistan

The fact that the Durand Line is virtually non-existent for the people on either side of the border.

The fact that Karzai recently said that the Durand line is invalid.


I say, Pakistan can easily put the Kashmir issue to rest if it wants to. If Pakistan stops its propaganda/ moral support campaign, the separatist movement will die down.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Stealth Assassin said:


> Neither do I....but this isn't about UN resolutions.
> 
> I vividly remember watching the "Jugular vein" speech by ZA Bhutto, which is why I don't buy the idea that Pakistan has always supported Kashmiri freedom.



The question of UN resolutions and what they advocated as a solution, has direct implications for what its policy has been.

If the UN resolutions early on recommended a plebiscite, and Pakistan agreed, then that indicates that for all intents and purposes, Pakistan has always supported the "moral solution".

I am unsure why references to a "jugular vein" by any leader until such time as there is peace between the two nations, should surprise you.

As I said before, the "jugular vein" argument exists because there is hostility between India and Pakistan - there is hostility between India and Pakistan because of kashmir - if Kashmir is resolved, so is the hostility - if there is no hostility, there is no need for a "jugular vein" argument.


Oh and wait...you forgot a technicality:

"Azad Kashmir" is only a tiny part of the Pakistani region. The other huge part, called Northern Areas is directly under Pakistani rule.



> Also there's the Trans-Karakoram tract, which Pakistan has gifted to China, further weakning its moral standing.


In terms of how it affected _people_, we did not lose our moral standing, since the estimates I have come across indicate that the population in Aksai Chin was less than 10,000.

The other part "Gilgit-Baltistan", considered ethnically distinct from Kashmir, and here is what they have to say:



> *Provincial status sought for Gilgit, Baltistan*​
> By A Reporter
> 
> RAWALPINDI, April 30: The government should declare Gilgit-Baltistan the fifth province and announce holding of fresh and transparent elections for the Northern Areas Legislative Assembly and the local bodies.
> 
> Historically, geographically and politically, Gilgit-Baltistan deserves to be a province. The people of the region should have the right to send their representatives to the National Assembly and Senate of Pakistan, of which they have been deprived for the last 60 years, said speakers at a seminar organised by the Balawaristan National Students Organisation here.
> 
> Pakistan Peoples Party leader Naheed Khan, nationalist leader Mirza Wajahat Hassan, secretary-general All Parties National Alliance Arif Shahid, Prof MARK Khaleeq, leader Balawaristan National Front Shujaat Ali Khan, Dr Sharif Astori, Amir Taimoor Aazam, Zafar Iqbal and student leader Zakir Hussain were among those who spoke on the occasion.
> 
> They urged the government to provide the basic human and constitutional rights to the people of the region immediately. The 18,000 square-kilometer area, with a population of two million, could not be left out of the national mainstream any longer, because it was against the solidarity of the country, they said.
> Provincial status sought for Gilgit, Baltistan -DAWN - National; May 01, 2008





> Maybe you are right...the Kashmiri separatists perhaps consider Pakistan the more favourable party....but that is only because of religion. Not because of any ground realities.


Theoretically one could argue that many small states should just offer to become part of the US - after all, think of the economic benefits that would accrue - but that is not happens, because peoples desire to determine their own identity and destiny.

Therefore whether or not the people in AK are more prosperous than those in IAK has little to do with how people view their identity.


> That is perhaps the perception in the kashmir valley. But I believe that is mainly due to the rise of religious extremism, and the pathetic and unsafe conditions in the valley.
> 
> I think if Kashmiris are allowed a period of peace and development, they will change their minds.


So long as the Kashmiris of AK want to maintain the role of the Pakistani State in defense, the perception will always be, among Kashmiris, that Pakistan stands for freedom of the Kashmiris. So long as the identity of the Kashmiris is estranged from the idea of "Indian" (which it will through the presence of a "free Kashmir" in Pakistan, and the fact that they were never given the right, established by the UNSC, to determine their identity), no number of Jobs will change how kashmiris view their identity.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Stealth Assassin said:


> Then how do you explain:
> 
> Separatist movements in Balochistan
> 
> The fact that the Durand Line is virtually non-existent for the people on either side of the border.
> 
> The fact that Karzai recently said that the Durand line is invalid.
> 
> 
> I say, Pakistan can easily put the Kashmir issue to rest if it wants to. If Pakistan stops its propaganda/ moral support campaign, the separatist movement will die down.



Stealth - I already explained the reasons behind the Balochistan movement, and the differences between that and Kashmir.

In Balochistan the ideological cause, of an independent Baloch Nation, is a secondary one - there was a referendum and Baloch Sardar consultations prior to its joining the Pakistani Federation. The primary cause is the lack of development and the perception of "Punjabi domination". 

The primary cause can therefore be addressed using the methods being utilized by India in Kashmir, and now by Pakistan in Balochistan.

The problem for Karzai is that there really isn't a separatist movement worth its salt in the NWFP or FATA (not to join Afghanistan anyway). The most popular Pashtun nationalist party, the ANP, declared that it would struggle for providing equal rights to all the provinces and remain part of the Pakistani Federation.

Again, the primary cause for gripe is the lack of development and the perception of "Punjabi domination", and the people of the NWFP also voted overwhelmingly in a referendum to join Pakistan.

There are indeed some in Afghanistan who want a greater Afghanistan, but the sentiment itself is not supported in Pakistan, and the people they want to join Afghanistan voted themselves to join Pakistan.

So in both those cases your comparison with Kashmir is flawed, for a variety of reasons.


----------



## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The question of UN resolutions and what they advocated as a solution, has direct implications for what its policy has been.
> 
> If the UN resolutions early on recommended a plebiscite, and Pakistan agreed, then that indicates that for all intents and purposes, Pakistan has always supported the "moral solution".
> 
> I am unsure why references to a "jugular vein" by any leader until such time as there is peace between the two nations, should surprise you.
> 
> As I said before, the "jugular vein" argument exists because there is hostility between India and Pakistan - there is hostility between India and Pakistan because of kashmir - if Kashmir is resolved, so is the hostility - if there is no hostility, there is no need for a "jugular vein" argument.



Pakistan has periodically said that it supports the moral solution, while its actions have been anything but more. However, that's besides the point.

Assuming that Pakistan is willing to let go of the strategic advantage offered by occupying Kashmir, and also the fact that Kashmir probably makes up more than 10% of its territory, will Pakistan be willing to engage China in resolving the dispute regarding the areas under its occupation?




> In terms of how it affected _people_, we did not lose our moral standing, since the estimates I have come across indicate that the population in Aksai Chin was less than 10,000.
> 
> The other part "Gilgit-Baltistan", considered ethnically distinct from Kashmir, and here is what they have to say:



That is a good move. So now with Northern Areas as a province of Pakistan, the validity of the LOC has inched one more step towards validity as the border.

As a side note, do the people of NA even want to be a part of Pakistan?




> Theoretically one could argue that many small states should just offer to become part of the US - after all, think of the economic benefits that would accrue - but that is not happens, because peoples desire to determine their own identity and destiny.



That's absurd. The US is on the other side of the planet. It can't effectively administer any territory here.
Moreover, the cultural difference is too great.

Also, if Pakistan is being so idealistic on the Kashmir issue, why not display the same idealism in dealing with its own separatist movements?



> Therefore whether or not the people in AK are more prosperous than those in IAK has little to do with how people view their identity.



I would argue that the prosperity and freedom of Indian Kashmiris is far more important than where their loyalties lie at the moment.
If they are happy as Indian citizens, their loyalties will change.

[/QUOTE]
So long as the Kashmiris of AK want to maintain the role of the Pakistani State in defense, the perception will always be, among Kashmiris, that Pakistan stands for freedom of the Kashmiris. So long as the identity of the Kashmiris is estranged from the idea of "Indian" (which it will through the presence of a "free Kashmir" in Pakistan, and the fact that they were never given the right, established by the UNSC, to determine their identity), no number of Jobs will change how kashmiris view their identity.[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]

I say that if Pakistan will stop its propaganda/moral support campaign in Kashmir, the problem will resolve itself.


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Indian Punjab had its separatist movement, but it was based on grounds that Pakistani Punjab had nothing to do with - in essence Indian Punjab and Bengal are for all intents and purposes not the same provinces anymore. I feel no kinship with Sikhs I meet - I feel a lot more Kinship with Pakistani Muhajir and Pakistani Pashtun. *Islam has essentially created its own unique identity.*


couldn't have said it any better myself. Believe me when I say, we have found no similarities between my family and hindus even in UP state. Of course, I am a descendent from arab migrants.

as for your balochistan issue, well, here you go...

YLRG9vvdc8o[/media] - New Era of Pakistan province Baluchistan
(P.S. notice the map)


----------



## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Stealth - I already explained the reasons behind the Balochistan movement, and the differences between that and Kashmir.
> 
> In Balochistan the ideological cause, of an independent Baloch Nation, is a secondary one - there was a referendum and Baloch Sardar consultations prior to its joining the Pakistani Federation. The primary cause is the lack of development and the perception of "Punjabi domination".



I'll get back to that. Let me learn more about the issue.



> The problem for Karzai is that there really isn't a separatist movement worth its salt in the NWFP or FATA (not to join Afghanistan anyway). The most popular Pashtun nationalist party, the ANP, declared that it would struggle for providing equal rights to all the provinces and remain part of the Pakistani Federation.




Dude, these areas aren't even under the control of the Pakistan govt. They have never been...they are lawless areas where tribal laws reign supreme.

I think that itself shows how much a part of Pakistan these people want to be.

The only difference between these areas and Kashmir is that Kashmir has got a hostile country creating problems, and the state is more or less non-existent. Oh, and the Kashmiris are far more peaceable.



> There are indeed some in Afghanistan who want a greater Afghanistan, but the sentiment itself is not supported in Pakistan, and the people they want to join Afghanistan voted themselves to join Pakistan.



Current situation doesn't exactly validate that...


----------



## EagleEyes

> Dude, these areas aren't even under the control of the Pakistan govt. They have never been...they are lawless areas where tribal laws reign supreme.
> 
> I think that itself shows how much a part of Pakistan these people want to be.
> 
> The only difference between these areas and Kashmir is that Kashmir has got a hostile country creating problems, and the state is more or less non-existent. Oh, and the Kashmiris are far more peaceable.



Dude, i read your first line and it tells me how much you know about the situation in Balochistan (yes please do read non-separatists based websites once in a while ) Pakistani government has full control over Balochistan.


----------



## Flintlock

WebMaster said:


> Dude, i read your first line and it tells me how much you know about the situation in Balochistan (yes please do read non-separatists based websites once in a while ) Pakistani government has full control over Balochistan.



I'm not talking about Balochistan


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

AM,

There are too many post to address individually.

It was a wise move of Pakistan to not include the Northern Areas as Kashmir, even though they are a part of Kashmir. his ensured that it was not 'disputed' and beyond the purview of the UN.

On the issue or religion and _ummah_ I have a different take.

Religion and ummah is an exercise that only the rich and those who have guaranteed two square meals a day can have the luxury to subscribe to.

In today's world where there is economic disparity, people are more concerned about their well being. It does not mean that they have forsaken religion, it is just that they have upgraded survival of their family over religion, even if marginally!

Religion can feed the soul, but not the stomach and when the stomach growls day in day out and when the mind becomes weak with the lack of food, then religion does take a second seat!


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

Pakistan has a notional control over Baluchistan, Northern Areas, FATA and other such areas of rebellion.

To feel that there is total peace is misplaced.

The greatest input to divide Pakistan is the Punjabis and their false superiority complex. Even Nawaz Sharif, who has hardly enough to save his 'face' is acting as if he runs the govt!!

His demand over the judges has been accepted! Who is he?


----------



## IceCold

Salim said:


> Pakistan has a notional control over Baluchistan, Northern Areas, FATA and other such areas of rebellion.
> 
> To feel that there is total peace is misplaced.
> 
> The greatest input to divide Pakistan is the Punjabis and their false superiority complex. Even Nawaz Sharif, who has hardly enough to save his 'face' is acting as if he runs the govt!!
> 
> His demand over the judges has been accepted! Who is he?



Just one question here? all the places that you just mentioned having a freedom struggle, you might have forgot that india too faces the same in many of her parts, but what is the connection of all of this with kashmir is simply beyond understanding. How can you compare an area that india itself took to UN and accepted it as a disputed terrority with what is going on inside pakistan and also within india. If we go by your theory about the freedom struggle in baluchistan fata, falsely trying to relate it with kashmir, then those indian parts like Assam etc should also be brought under the same category.
Also when you claim about punjabis having false superiority complex, lets say for your argument sake, do you think indians dont have the same, specially upper class hindus like the brahmins towards their low class shudras.
NS has won seats in punjab and because his and PPP are the two main collation parties in forming the government, therefore its obivious that he will have a say in the politics. As for the rest in restoration of the judiciary, zardari is consulting everyone even with the PML(Q).


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

Salim said:


> Pakistan has a notional control over Baluchistan, Northern Areas, FATA and other such areas of rebellion.
> 
> To feel that there is total peace is misplaced.
> 
> The greatest input to divide Pakistan is the Punjabis and their false superiority complex. Even Nawaz Sharif, who has hardly enough to save his 'face' is acting as if he runs the govt!!
> 
> His demand over the judges has been accepted! Who is he?


not so fast, there's no need to wet your pants. Pakistan has full control over Balochistan and where did Northern Areas come from? *MOD EDIT: Inappropriate language*

FATA has always been traditionally under the control of the tribals, as the name suggests. that was our agreement with them then and is still now.


----------



## UnitedPak

Salim and Stealth have missed the point entirely and gone off topic again. This discussion is not about Baluchistan, but why Kashmiris shouldnt be able to decide their own future.
The argument is simple really: Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris, let them have that vote, and stop speculating on what they will vote for to deny them the vote altogether.


----------



## roadrunner

Salim said:


> Pakistan has a notional control over Baluchistan, Northern Areas, FATA and other such areas of rebellion.
> 
> To feel that there is total peace is misplaced.
> 
> The greatest input to divide Pakistan is the Punjabis and their false superiority complex. Even Nawaz Sharif, who has hardly enough to save his 'face' is acting as if he runs the govt!!
> 
> His demand over the judges has been accepted! Who is he?



the difference between balochistan, fata, northern areas etc, and kashmir, is that the instrument of Partition was followed for balochistan, fata, and northern areas, but it was not followed for Kashmir. This would make Kashmir occupied by international law. 

Even states in India have rebellions of the size going on in Balochistan, bigger in some cases. This does not mean the majority of the people want separation necessarily. The Baloch joined Pakistan fair and square under the rules of Partition, the Kashmiris did not join India though of their own free will (or even legally) as it was a land grab. Plus, they obviously don't want to live under India (and perhaps not Pakistan, but pakistan has already given them independence).


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

only the khan of Kalat, who controlled a part of balochistan wanted independence. what people don't reveal is the fact that the same Bughti tribe we know today went against this and joined pakistan. there were many other baloch tribes that chose to live as a part of pakistan, against the khanate of Kalat.


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

UnitedPak said:


> Salim and Stealth have missed the point entirely and gone off topic again. This discussion is not about Baluchistan, but why Kashmiris shouldnt be able to decide their own future.
> The argument is simple really: Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris, let them have that vote, and stop speculating on what they will vote for to deny them the vote altogether.


it's because they have no argument for your posts, so they always play it off by bringing in balochistan. of course, salim mentioning northern areas is laughable.


----------



## Flintlock

asaad-ul-islam said:


> FATA has always been traditionally under the control of the tribals, as the name suggests. that was our agreement with them then and is still now.



Yeah, India too made such "agreements" with the Maharajas about autonomy and privy purse and separate laws etc. etc. 
Everything was scrapped when Patel decided enough is enough, if India has to survive as a single entity, it will need a single code of law, and a single code of governance.

The inability to bring FATA under rule of law isn't because of some time-honoured agreement, but because the Pakistani state was unable to do so.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Stealth Assassin said:


> Pakistan has periodically said that it supports the moral solution, while its actions have been anything but more. However, that's besides the point.
> 
> Assuming that Pakistan is willing to let go of the strategic advantage offered by occupying Kashmir, and also the fact that Kashmir probably makes up more than 10&#37; of its territory, will Pakistan be willing to engage China in resolving the dispute regarding the areas under its occupation?


You don't have to assume - as long as Pakistan has advocated the UN resolutions as a solution to the dispute, Pakistan has essentially put on the line the territory under its control. You may think its a bluff, but then India has never had the courage to call that bluff.


> That is a good move. So now with Northern Areas as a province of Pakistan, the validity of the LOC has inched one more step towards validity as the border.
> 
> As a side note, do the people of NA even want to be a part of Pakistan?



Stealth, that isn't the governments position - those were opinions of locals belonging to local and national organizations and political parties - so I would say that while a small snapshot, they are an indicator of what the people of the NA want.


> That's absurd. The US is on the other side of the planet. It can't effectively administer any territory here.
> Moreover, the cultural difference is too great.


I merely mentioned "small states", not where the states would be - and my point is that if "economic benefit and prosperity" were the only thing people cared about, then why not simply merge with the US (even if halfway around the world) - you get to be citizens, get a share of budgetary funds, all that expertise in every field, and the US is an open society, welcoming of everyone regardless of "cultural differences".

Thats essentially the argument you are advocating - that to win over the Kashmiris to supporting India, you will offer them jobs and development- but that approach does not address the underlying "estrangement of identity" - 

Why don't they want to be part of India in the first place?


> Also, if Pakistan is being so idealistic on the Kashmir issue, why not display the same idealism in dealing with its own separatist movements?


The root cause of Kashmiri separatism is the ideology of Pakistan and the identity of the Kashmiri - the root cause of Balochistan's issues is the lack of development and too little local control. 

The people of Baochistan and the NWFP voted freely to join the Pakistani federation, and as RR pointed out, the instrument of partition was followed correectly, so I would say we did implement the "idealistic solution" at our conception. 



> I would argue that the prosperity and freedom of Indian Kashmiris is far more important than where their loyalties lie at the moment.
> If they are happy as Indian citizens, their loyalties will change.
> 
> 
> I say that if Pakistan will stop its propaganda/moral support campaign in Kashmir, the problem will resolve itself.


I think that while India is controlling IAK, it should ensure the prosperity and rights of Kashmiris - my skepticism is entirly over whether "jobs and development" can change the inherent identity problem that arises in Kashmir due its status, the claim of Pakistan, the presence of AK and the UNSC resolutions.

My argument may be completely wrong, since I can see into the future, but that is how I view the situation based on the reasoning in my posts.

I agree with you that were Pakistan to stop supporting the Kashmiri cause you would have a far stronger chance of "winning hearts and minds". Pakistan's support and claim on Kashmir, and support for Kashmiri self determination bilaterally and internationally, contributes a large degree to the continuation of the alienation of the Kashmiri identity from India.

But then that is why the two sides have to get together to work out a solution that does not affect the strategic position of either to any great degree, nor results in any great territorial loss.

I would say separating the Kashmir valley from the NA's, Jammu and Laddakh, and moving towards joint control achieves all of that, and also sets the stage for a much greater cooperation and a larger confederation down the road. But thats just me.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Stealth:

The "lack of sincerity" on the part of India to do anything to resolve the Kashmir issue, and essentially waste time, summed up quite well in this article:



> No nation regards Tibet as disputed territory, while every country, India included, places J&K in that category. (These days we are not allowed to refer to it as &#8216;disputed', but the Simla Agreement as well as our commitment to the United Nations makes clear it is).
> 
> Though we accuse Pakistan of occupying a chunk of our turf, we do nothing about that, apart from marking every imported atlas with a stamp saying the borders of India as depicted are inaccurate.
> 
> If Pakistan brings up Kashmir at multilateral forums, we complain it is contravening the Simla Agreement. But when it presses for bilateral talks, as recommended by that Agreement, we insist J&K is an internal matter. We parrot the slogan about the valley being an integral part of India, in the face of the fact that all nation-states are provisional entities.
> 
> During times of terror, we insist violence must cease before talks can be held. In periods of relative calm, we complacently conclude there's no need to rock the houseboat.


http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/11277-free-tibet-what-about-kashmir.html


----------



## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Stealth:
> 
> The "lack of sincerity" on the part of India to do anything to resolve the Kashmir issue, and essentially waste time, summed up quite well in this article:



There is no question of "lack of sincerety" as far as India is concerned. 

India's official position is that Kashmir is a part of India. I don't think that line has ever changed.

You might consider that insincere, but from a nationalistic point of view, it is the only sincere position.


----------



## UnitedPak

Stealth Assassin said:


> There is no question of "lack of sincerety" as far as India is concerned.
> 
> India's official position is that Kashmir is a part of India. I don't think that line has ever changed.
> 
> You might consider that insincere, but from a nationalistic point of view, it is the only sincere position.



You denying the problem is never going to solve anything. That in itself is a "lack of sincerity".

Kashmir has been disputed *from Day 1*. And there is no reason for not treating it as such.
Simply throwing across statements like "Kashmir is an integral part of India" are meaningless to Pakistan and the world. They wont change the fact that the territory is considered disputed. Such approaches just confirm that India is not sincere with any kind of progress in the region.


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

why are we waisting time with this guy, he's going around in circles?


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Stealth Assassin said:


> There is no question of "lack of sincerety" as far as India is concerned.
> 
> India's official position is that Kashmir is a part of India. I don't think that line has ever changed.
> 
> You might consider that insincere, but from a nationalistic point of view, it is the only sincere position.



That position is insincerity and double speak, because as the quote indicates, you are committed by virtue of being part of the UN and recognizing its charter (and being the one to take the dispute to the UN) to the solution proposed by it. 

You are committed via the Simla Accord to resolving the dispute bilaterally - yet your nation merely snivels and backtracks from one position to the next, when it becomes clear that adherence to any agreement, international or bilateral, will not result in what India wants.

Its _Real Politik _- every nation does it, but don't attempt to keep up the charade that India has a lick of a moral position in Kashmir, or that it is any better than Pakistan in "advocating peace".

You want to refuse to come up with any solution with Pakistan that takes the Kashmiris wishes into account, and simply attempt to cajole and force them with a combination of development and military force into eventually accepting India, then say so and leave the rest aside.

We have nothing to discuss at that point, war is not going to resolve the issue, and if India wants to be short sighted enough to perpetuate this hostility for ever, than that is your choice. 

We know where each stands,and it is unfortunate that is your nation's position.


----------



## Flintlock

UnitedPak said:


> You denying the problem is never going to solve anything. That in itself is a "lack of sincerity".
> 
> Kashmir has been disputed *from Day 1*. And there is no reason for not treating it as such.
> Simply throwing across statements like "Kashmir is an integral part of India" are meaningless to Pakistan and the world. They wont change the fact that the territory is considered disputed. Such approaches just confirm that India is not sincere with any kind of progress in the region.



Listen dude. Learn some english. Also open a dictionary and look up the meaning of the words "context" and "perspective".

I am merely stating India's official position, since that particular article accuses India of being insincere in solving the Kashmir issue.

The rest of what I am arguing, regarding making LOC as international border, splitting up Kashmir along ethnic lines, etc. etc. is all just speculation on my part.


----------



## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> You are committed via the Simla Accord to resolving the dispute bilaterally - yet your nation merely snivels and backtracks from one position to the next, when it becomes clear that adherence to any agreement, international or bilateral, will not result in what India wants.



Simla Accord?

Alright, here's the Simla Accord:_

Most importantly, it bound the two countries "to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations". It also cemented the Line of Control as something close to a permanent border.

"In Jammu and Kashmir, the Line of Control resulting from the cease-fire of December 17, 1971 shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognised position of either side.

Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations. Both sides further undertake to refrain from threat or the use of force in violation of this Line." 

The agreement also paved the way for diplomatic recognition of Bangladesh by Pakistan. As a gesture of goodwill India decided not to try 93,000 (80,000 military and 13,000 civilians) Pakistan prisoners of war for war crimes and released them._


Pakistan has continually tried to alter that border since then, by either waging a proxy war, or by force. 

In the Times of India article, the author says that India has tried to avoid resolving the issue whenever there has been peace in the region.
I ask this: Name one year, one month or even one week, which hasn't been disrupted by terrorist activity sponsored by Pakistan.

From a nationalistic point of view, despite having gained a decisive victory in '71, was a bit to magnanimous. It should have asked Pakistan to cede territory.

A more practical solution would have been to declare the LOC as the international border and be done with it.




> Its _Real Politik _- every nation does it, but don't attempt to keep up the charade that India has a lick of a moral position in Kashmir, or that it is any better than Pakistan in "advocating peace".



Of course, India has to secure its strategic interests. 

But India is also bound by some moral obligations, which most of the world recognizes that India has tried to adhere to as much as is practically possible.


----------



## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That position is insincerity and double speak, because as the quote indicates, you are committed by virtue of being part of the UN and recognizing its charter (and being the one to take the dispute to the UN) to the solution proposed by it.
> 
> You are committed via the Simla Accord to resolving the dispute bilaterally - yet your nation merely snivels and backtracks from one position to the next, when it becomes clear that adherence to any agreement, international or bilateral, will not result in what India wants.
> 
> You want to refuse to come up with any solution with Pakistan that takes the Kashmiris wishes into account, and simply attempt to cajole and force them with a combination of development and military force into eventually accepting India, then say so and leave the rest aside.




Hey, calm down dude. I am not the President of India. I am merely speculating on what happens in the corridors of Delhi.

Yes, I have said that earlier too. India wants a period of peace and development in the valley to see if that changes the sentiments in the valley.

However, I think, that Pakistan knows that it can't afford to let Kashmir settle down. lest it turns pro-India.



> We have nothing to discuss at that point, war is not going to resolve the issue, and if India wants to be short sighted enough to perpetuate this hostility for ever, than that is your choice.




Gimme a break.

If Pakistan is sincere in resolving the issue, she should stop the proxy war, let conditions normalize in the valley, and then get on the moral high horse.

Only if that happens, will the world trust Pakistan's good intentions. Till then, you can prepare to be "snivelled" at by India and the world.


----------



## roadrunner

Stealth Assassin said:


> Simla Accord?
> 
> Alright, here's the Simla Accord:_
> 
> Most importantly, it bound the two countries "to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations". It also cemented the Line of Control as something close to a permanent border.
> 
> "In Jammu and Kashmir, the Line of Control resulting from the cease-fire of December 17, 1971 shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognised position of either side.
> 
> Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations. Both sides further undertake to refrain from threat or the use of force in violation of this Line."
> 
> The agreement also paved the way for diplomatic recognition of Bangladesh by Pakistan. As a gesture of goodwill India decided not to try 93,000 (80,000 military and 13,000 civilians) Pakistan prisoners of war for war crimes and released them._



The UN charter and resolutions supercede Simla Accord. It doesn't matter what Simla says if the UN resolutions say something else. And the UN resolutions do call for a demilitarization of Kashmir, to which India does not accept. 



> I ask this: Name one year, one month or even one week, which hasn't been disrupted by terrorist activity sponsored by Pakistan.



Not a good argument. I would make the argument in return "Name one year, one month, or even one week, which hasn't been disrupted by terrorist activity sponsored by India". Which country has incorporated Kashmir into their Constitution, when the UN resolutions call the land disputed territory that must be settled by plebiscite. This is illegal, illegal acts are terrorist acts? In that case everyday for the last 40 years or so since India incorporated Kashmir into its Constitution, it would have been acting as a terrorist? 

I would also disagree that Pakistan is sending freedom fighters into Kashmir. It's acknowledged Hizbul faction are Kashmiris from the Kashmir Valley, not Pakistanis. 



> But India is also bound by some moral obligations, which most of the world recognizes that India has tried to adhere to as much as is practically possible.



If it was moral obligations that India is bound to, why does it flaunt the UN resolutions, and ignore plebiscite? This is the moral right of Kashmiris is it not, to have the choice of self determination, that was denied them? 

Another thing imo, one cannot say this is a proxy war being fought by Pakistan. It is universally acknowledged that the people fighting in the Kashmir Valley are Kashmiris - interesting point - India with its millions of troops cannot secure a border around a quarter the size of the Afghan-Pak border, whilst Pakistan is expected to be responsible to seal the whole of the Afghan-Pak border..impossible I would say.


----------



## Flintlock

Doesn't the Shimla Accord overrule the UN Resolution?


----------



## dabong1

Forget about the UN and the Simla Accord..... Jihad is the only way forward,we need the pak govt to go public and say that the peace process has failed to yeild any positive results and that only an armed struggle will set kashmir free.
All the freedom fighters....LeT,HM,al badr,JKLF need to be combined as one fighting unit under the command of the pakistani army.
The command structure should be along the hezbollah lines.......with the "kashmir hezbollah" being trained in pakistan the way hezbollah is funded and trained by syria and iran.
Past mistakes like fundraising being allowed to be carried out by anybody must be not be repeated.
The "thousand cuts" strategy must be repaced with the "body blows" strategy where attacks are carried out on indian bases and attacks on large formations of indian troops.
The fidayeen would be perfect for this sort of attack.
The media must work together with the freedom fighters and start a blitz on the internet and tv....get the top pakistani artist to do a global tour and raise awareness about kashmir..ect ect.

I think AgNoStIc MuSliM got it spot on about india.

If Pakistan brings up Kashmir at multilateral forums, we complain it is contravening the Simla Agreement. But when it presses for bilateral talks, as recommended by that Agreement, we insist J&K is an internal matter. We parrot the slogan about the valley being an integral part of India, in the face of the fact that all nation-states are provisional entities.

During times of terror, we insist violence must cease before talks can be held. In periods of relative calm, we complacently conclude there's no need to rock the houseboat. 

We need to negotiate from a postion of strength!!!!....thats if you really think the indians are sincere when it come to it.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

Lets take it point by point.

Who says that India is an island of peace?

You say. I dont.

And I am not a tonga horse with blinkers on as some out here maybe!!


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

UnitedPak said:


> You denying the problem is never going to solve anything. That in itself is a "lack of sincerity".
> 
> Kashmir has been disputed *from Day 1*. And there is no reason for not treating it as such.
> Simply throwing across statements like "Kashmir is an integral part of India" are meaningless to Pakistan and the world. They wont change the fact that the territory is considered disputed. Such approaches just confirm that India is not sincere with any kind of progress in the region.



Are you serious - Day I?

Afghans are Kashmiris?


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

AM,

Have your read the resolution?

Read it. Check.

Personally, it is a waste of time - Kashmir.

Give it to the Pakistanis and they wiull give it to the Chinese as they have done for Saksgam!

End of story!

China is more important to Pakistanis than Pakistan as is being displayed on this forum!!


----------



## UnitedPak

Salim said:


> AM,
> 
> Have your read the resolution?
> 
> Read it. Check.
> 
> Personally, it is a waste of time - Kashmir.
> 
> Give it to the Pakistanis and they wiull give it to the Chinese as they have done for Saksgam!
> 
> End of story!
> 
> China is more important to Pakistanis than Pakistan as is being displayed on this forum!!



Its simply pathetic how you avoid to bring justice to Kashmiris by bringing in hundreds of completely unrelated arguments. This is not about China, Baluchistan, Afghanistan or the Americans.

The only thing you need to focus on is the UN resolution and the Kashmiri people. Frankly nobody on this planet cares that an Indian from Delhi thinks he personally owns some land in Kashmir.

The only people who should even be having a say here are the Kashmiri people themselves. All of them. We dont need all knowing, self proclaimed experts on Kashmiri opinions to tell us on their behalf.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

United Pak,

Have you read the UN resolution?

Read it and then talk.

In fact, it is neither Pakistan or India who are pathetic. You are.

You don't read and then take off like an unguided missile!


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> You are committed via the Simla Accord to resolving the dispute bilaterally - yet your nation merely snivels and backtracks from one position to the next, when it becomes clear that adherence to any agreement, international or bilateral, will not result in what India wants.



My apologies to any Indians who might have been offended by my use of the term "snivel" - it was uncalled for.


----------



## Flintlock

To sum-up what I've been saying:

1. India hasn't been dilly-dallying over kashmir any more than Pakistan has been doing for any of its separatist movements, or India has been in Mizoram or Manipur.

2. The UN Resolution, as Salim said, applies to the whole of kashmir. Technically, it cannot be used in its original form. 
It would seem more ethical to have a referendum in Kashmir Valley, but India atleast would be unwilling to do so, since it blames Pakistan creating the current anti-India sentiment.

(Officially, India has maintained that the majority of kashmiris are pro-India. This was in fact the case a few decades ago, but surveys done by media companies suggest that kashmiris are not too sympathetic towards the current administration.
The reason is probably a combination of religious sentiment, anger against the inefficient and corrupt government and years of violence.)


3. The only viable solution, in my opinion, is for status quo to be maintained for now
.
There are several separatist parties in Kashmir, none of which enjoy much popularity. 
If such a party can participate in elections and get the popular majority, then perhaps there can be a solid reason to implement their agenda.

As long as the separatists as well as the foreign militants continue to employ violent means, I'm afraid that their credibility will remain zero.


----------



## ejaz007

Unfortunately when Indians run out of arguments they link one issue to another completely irrelevant issue. For example on this thread Balochistan, FATA and NA issue has been linked to Kashmir.
Balochistan and FATA are not disputed territories and not claimed by any other country except Pakistan. So that settles the issue. Balochistan joined Pakistan by a decision of the grand jirga and no one even those leaders who are considered separatists have said they want independence. All they are demanding is teir rightfull share of the revenue and development of Balochistan to bring it at par with other provinces of the country. That is fair enough and present government intends to do exactly that. Also foreign hand in Balochistan is also at work, however BLA has almost been crushed and shall not be a meanigful threat in future. As far as FATA is concerned the situation has deteriorated due to war on terror. At the time of independence Quaid-e-Azam has assured the Tribal leaders that army shall not be deployed in the area and their present status shall be maintained. This existed for almost 60 years and we did not had much problem. But come war on terror and due to only easy land route to Afghanistan US involvement increased and tribal people consider them ani islam and thus became involved and we had to deploy army. However the issue hopefully shall be dealt with politically and present government is taking steps to involve political leaders to deal with the problem.
Now coming to Kashmir I believe in 1947 the political force of the Kashmir had made it clear their intention to join Pakistan. The maharaja signed an insrument of accession that was brought to him by an Indian official and perhaps did not even properly read it. The instrument of accession had a flaw as the date of signing was typed wrong and was changed at the time of signing. The Maharaja clearly knew the will of the people but acted against it and as per the rules of partition the will of people had the final say and not the ruler. The same principle was accepted at UN by both India and Pakistan. Nehru during his speaches had said that India did not want forced marriages and those who do not wish to remain part of India should choose their own path. Well why dont you let people decide. One more thing it was India who took the matter to UN and not Pakistan. So the issue became disputed the day you took it to a third forum and requested for a resolution. If you were not requesting for resolution then what were you doing at the UN?
Please stop distorting the facts and face the reality. Whatever Kashmiris want today one thing is for sure they do not want to live with India not after 90,000 sacrifices.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

ejaz007 said:


> Unfortunately when Indians run out of arguments they link one issue to another completely irrelevant issue. For example on this thread Balochistan, FATA and NA issue has been linked to Kashmir.
> Balochistan and FATA are not disputed territories and not claimed by any other country except Pakistan. So that settles the issue. Balochistan joined Pakistan by a decision of the grand jirga and no one even those leaders who are considered separatists have said they want independence. All they are demanding is teir rightfull share of the revenue and development of Balochistan to bring it at par with other provinces of the country. That is fair enough and present government intends to do exactly that. Also foreign hand in Balochistan is also at work, however BLA has almost been crushed and shall not be a meanigful threat in future. As far as FATA is concerned the situation has deteriorated due to war on terror. At the time of independence Quaid-e-Azam has assured the Tribal leaders that army shall not be deployed in the area and their present status shall be maintained. This existed for almost 60 years and we did not had much problem. But come war on terror and due to only easy land route to Afghanistan US involvement increased and tribal people consider them ani islam and thus became involved and we had to deploy army. However the issue hopefully shall be dealt with politically and present government is taking steps to involve political leaders to deal with the problem.
> Now coming to Kashmir I believe in 1947 the political force of the Kashmir had made it clear their intention to join Pakistan. The maharaja signed an insrument of accession that was brought to him by an Indian official and perhaps did not even properly read it. The instrument of accession had a flaw as the date of signing was typed wrong and was changed at the time of signing. The Maharaja clearly knew the will of the people but acted against it and as per the rules of partition the will of people had the final say and not the ruler. The same principle was accepted at UN by both India and Pakistan. Nehru during his speaches had said that India did not want forced marriages and those who do not wish to remain part of India should choose their own path. Well why don&#8217;t you let people decide. One more thing it was India who took the matter to UN and not Pakistan. So the issue became disputed the day you took it to a third forum and requested for a resolution. If you were not requesting for resolution then what were you doing at the UN?
> Please stop distorting the facts and face the reality. Whatever Kashmiris want today one thing is for sure they do not want to live with India not after 90,000 sacrifices.



It is a misconception that Indians running out of argument use the other areas where there is a bone of contention.

Balochistan joined Pakistan and within no time the separatist movement took birth.The first one was in 1948, led by Princ Karim Khan. There have been such rebellions on and oft and I don&#8217;t think I should narrate that history to you. Therefore, it is somewhat similar to what you wish to claim for Kashmir. 

Pashtun nationalism is nothing new. The poetry of the warrior Kushal Khan Khattak and the Durrani Empire, the Red Shirt (Khudai Khidmatgar), the removal of the Chief Minister Dr Khan Sahib should be an aide m&#233;moire to indicate the undercurrent and the turbulent equation. 

They are not disputed in a sense and yet they are emotionally not in synchromesh! 

The foreign hand? Indeed! It is also seen in Kashmir. I presume if there is the foreign hand, then the adage fishing in troubled waters is given credence.

Anti Islam seems to have become a catch all for any event that is uncomfortable. If the WoT was indeed anti Islam, then the last Pakistani govt and even the current one would not have played ball. It is just that it is being used as an emotional sop to wish away the ground realities that is beyond religion. I am told that it is anti Islam for a Mosle.m to fight and kill another Mos.lem. Therefore, should I also accept that those who do so are anti Islam? If that was the bottomline, then would you like me to believe that the GoP is as anti Islam as Mehsud? And that Mehsud is not a terrorist? Am I to believe that the GoP is to allow such terrorists like Mehsud a free hand to subvert Pakistan just because he is a Mos.lem and Mos,lems (PA) should not kill Mos.lems (terrorists like Mehsud)?

What I am pointing out is that the tendency to use the word &#8216;anti Islam&#8217; loosely and as a catch all only obfuscate the reality and real ground situation - the bareboned reason behind issues.

Now coming to Kashmir. The sole political force was Sheik Abdullah, who was fighting the King and feudalism. He was the main force that made the King sign the Instrument of Accession, when the King was dithering and hoping that he would remain separate and rule his Kingdom! Therefore, the contention that the political force was on joining Pakistan is a bit fuzzy and not real.

Now, as I have repeatedly requested, read the UN Resolution. It categorically states that Pakistan is to remove its troops before a Plebiscite takes place and India should remove the bulk of its troops.

So, why not remove the Pakistani Army from the area held in Kashmir by Pakistan.

Then you will be on a more moral and solid ground.

Then India will have no excuse to not allow the Plebiscite and since you feel that Kashmiris want to join Pakistan and is being prevented by the presence of the Indian Army, don&#8217;t you think it will be ideal to remove the troops and hold the Plebiscite so that your contention that Kashmiris want to join Pakistan would be proved?

I would only remind you that it was the Kashmiri who alerted the Indian Army in 1965 and again during Kargil!!


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Stealth Assassin said:


> To sum-up what I've been saying:
> 
> 1. India hasn't been dilly-dallying over kashmir any more than Pakistan has been doing for any of its separatist movements, or India has been in Mizoram or Manipur.



That is nothing but a straw man argument.

The cases of unrest in Balochistan, FATA and the East of India are unrelated. Pakistan is not asking for plebiscites in Eastern Indian States.

I have explained in detail the ideological and fundamental differences between the Kashmir dispute between India and Pakistan, and the internal unrest in Pakistan (and India), and you haven't rebutted any of the distinctions I made.

Mentioning Balochistan and FATA is merely a canard brought up by Indians wishing to distract from the argument. 



> 2. The UN Resolution, as Salim said, applies to the whole of kashmir. Technically, it cannot be used in its original form.
> It would seem more ethical to have a referendum in Kashmir Valley, but India atleast would be unwilling to do so, since it blames Pakistan creating the current anti-India sentiment.
> 
> (Officially, India has maintained that the majority of kashmiris are pro-India. This was in fact the case a few decades ago, but surveys done by media companies suggest that kashmiris are not too sympathetic towards the current administration.
> The reason is probably a combination of religious sentiment, anger against the inefficient and corrupt government and years of violence.)



That too is a flawed argument since it does not answer why India was averse to holding a plebiscite when the insurgency was not at its height, assuming that the Kashmiris were at that time "pro-India", which I highly doubt. 

The UN resolutions, more than anything, provide for how a moral and just solution to the issue can be worked out - a plebiscite - let the people decide their destiny.

I would argue that rather than the list of excuses you have come up with (which probably play a role as well) the alienation of the Kashmiris is precisely because Pakistan is seen as championing this cause of "self-determination", principally and practically (Azad Kashmir), while India is seen as opposing it.



> 3. The only viable solution, in my opinion, is for status quo to be maintained for now
> .
> There are several separatist parties in Kashmir, none of which enjoy much popularity.
> If such a party can participate in elections and get the popular majority, then perhaps there can be a solid reason to implement their agenda.
> 
> As long as the separatists as well as the foreign militants continue to employ violent means, I'm afraid that their credibility will remain zero.



"the status quo should be maintained" is essentially the position India has always had - and then we are to believe Indian arguments that they have not "dilly dallied" and are interested in actually resolving the issue. You essentially contradicted your first argument again where you accused Pakistan of equally "dilly dallying" - Its all India.

Now, as expected, another yardstick and another condition is being snuck in - not only must the separatist violence stop (and it has gone down dramatically during Mushrraf's tenure), but the separatist parties must contest elections and then India will consider there "agenda". 

More dilly dallying and obfuscation is all it is.

Again, that writer could not have summed it up better:



> If Pakistan brings up Kashmir at multilateral forums, we complain it is contravening the Simla Agreement. But when it presses for bilateral talks, as recommended by that Agreement, we insist J&K is an internal matter. We parrot the slogan about the valley being an integral part of India, in the face of the fact that all nation-states are provisional entities.
> 
> During times of terror, we insist violence must cease before talks can be held. In periods of relative calm, we complacently conclude there's no need to rock the houseboat.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

On the UN resolutions.

There is an entire thread devoted to them.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...es/7904-kashmir-resolutions-explanations.html

I often quote RR's starting posts to point out that when it came to the UN resolutions, Pakistan was not at fault for "not withdrawing its troops" as Indians often claim.



> "Pakistan had to withdraw all its troops from Kashmir as per resolution 47". Nonsense. Here's resolution 47 in the flesh.
> 
> Resolution adopted by the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan on 13 August 1948.
> (Document No.1100, Para. 75, dated the 9th November, 1948).
> 
> (1) As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw itstroops from that State. CHECK - Pakistan agreed
> 
> (2) The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavour to secure the withdrawal from theState of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident thereinwho have entered the State for the purpose of fighting. CHECK - Pakistan tried
> 
> (3) Pending a final solution the territory evacuated by the Pakistan troops will be administered by the local authorities under the surveillance of the commission. - CHECK - Pakistan awaited the following
> 
> When the Commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistani nationals referred to in Part II, A, 2 hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistani forces *are being* withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of its forces from that State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission.- CHECK - "are being withdrawn", when Pakistani troops ARE BEING withdrawn, then India must agree to reduce its troops.
> 
> But did it? Answer is next.
> 
> Onto 1952, and Pakistani troops were being withdrawn, now UNCIP asks India to reduce its troops as per resolution 47 above.
> 
> UN resolution 98 of 23RD December 1952
> Urges the Governments of India and Pakistan to enter into immediate negotiations under the auspices of the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan in order to reach agreement on the specific number of forces to remain on each side of the cease-fire line at the end of the period of demilitarization, this number to be between 3,000 and 6,000 armed forces remaining on the Pakistan side of the cease-fire line and between 12,000 and 18,000 armed forces remaining on the India side of the cease-fire line, as suggested by the United Nations Representative in his proposals of 16 July 1952, such specific numbers to be arrived at bearing in mind the principles or criteria contained in paragraph 7 of the United Nations Representative's proposal of 4 September 1952
> 
> But oh no, did it agree to reduce its troops? Here are those words again
> UNCIP representative: "in the end I became convinced that India&#8217;s agreement would never be obtained to demilitarization in any form or to provisions governing the period of plebiscite of such character, as would in my opinion, permit the plebiscite being conducted in conditions sufficiently guarding against intimidation and other forms of influence and abuse by which freedom and fairness of the plebiscite might be imperiled."
> UNCIP chief representative



I am not arguing that the resolutions can be implemented in their entirety at this point in history, but that it is flawed to suggest that Pakistan was the one the caused the lack of implementation due to a refusal to withdraw its forces.

The problem isn't even the UN resolutions, but the fact that for all the noise of "bilateral this and that", when time comes for bilateral negotiations, India merely attempts to play out the clock.


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

india claims to have lost or been robbed of the instrument of accession in the summer of 1995.

india took the kashmir issue to the UN in 1948 under article 35 of chapter VI which outlines the means for a peaceful settlement of dispute, not under chapter VII which relates to acts of aggression committed by pakistan as claimed by india. 

therefore, india recognized kashmir as a dispute which nullifies the instrument of accession.


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

Salim said:


> It is a misconception that Indians running out of argument use the other areas where there is a bone of contention.


then why do you keep on bringing up the same issue with balochistan and NWFP, they are not disputed areas. is it because you are running out of arguments or that you can't defend your stand on kashmir?



Salim said:


> Balochistan joined Pakistan and within no time the separatist movement took birth.*The first one was in 1948, led by Princ Karim Khan*. There have been such rebellions on and oft and I dont think I should narrate that history to you. Therefore, it is somewhat similar to what you wish to claim for Kashmir.


the key figure is Prince Karim Khan, the Khan of *Kalat* claimed independence in 1948. he was not in control of the entire landmass, only Kalat. The Bughti and Mengal tribes contributed to the cause of the federation because they rejected his rule.



Salim said:


> Pashtun nationalism is nothing new. The poetry of the warrior Kushal Khan Khattak and the Durrani Empire, the Red Shirt (Khudai Khidmatgar), the removal of the Chief Minister Dr Khan Sahib should be an aide mémoire to indicate the undercurrent and the turbulent equation.


like i said, "look at how far the pashtunistan issue got? no where." More literally, it didn't even start at all. these pashtunistan fanatics ALWAYS come from afghanistan. 

You need only go to Peshawar or any other tribal area for independence day to see for yourself. Is Bacha Khan remembered or eulogized at all, no! Pashtuns have always been at the forefront of this country and always will be. They form the increasing bulk of our military and practically run our intelligence agencies. 

The Sikhs whom you claim to be so loyal caused more problems for you and actually went against the state for independence. Even if we consider Baitullah Mehsud, who by the way *is disowned by the tribals, taliban, and even the other pakistani taliban factions*, was fighting against the writ of the state, we must note that he did not at all fight for independence. None of the taliban(imposters in pakistan) want independence, rather they want control over our govt. As long as they do not break away from us, they are still OUR miscreants.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

If Pakistan agreed to withdraw its troops, so be it.

Why the reluctance?


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

asaad-ul-islam said:


> then why do you keep on bringing up the same issue with balochistan and NWFP, they are not disputed areas. is it because you are running out of arguments or that you can't defend your stand on kashmir?
> 
> 
> the key figure is Prince Karim Khan, the Khan of *Kalat* claimed independence in 1948. he was not in control of the entire landmass, only Kalat. The Bughti and Mengal tribes contributed to the cause of the federation because they rejected his rule.
> 
> 
> like i said, "look at how far the pashtunistan issue got? no where." More literally, it didn't even start at all. these pashtunistan fanatics ALWAYS come from afghanistan.
> 
> You need only go to Peshawar or any other tribal area for independence day to see for yourself. Is Bacha Khan remembered or eulogized at all, no! Pashtuns have always been at the forefront of this country and always will be. They form the increasing bulk of our military and practically run our intelligence agencies.
> 
> The Sikhs whom you claim to be so loyal caused more problems for you and actually went against the state for independence. Even if we consider Baitullah Mehsud, who by the way *is disowned by the tribals, taliban, and even the other pakistani taliban factions*, was fighting against the writ of the state, we must note that he did not at all fight for independence. None of the taliban(imposters in pakistan) want independence, rather they want control over our govt. As long as they do not break away from us, they are still OUR miscreants.



Come come.

Answer my post in detail and not in obfuscation.

Sikhs have not caused problems to India. Bindranwala is not the only Sikhs. Notice and rebellion amongst them?

Can't say the same for certain parts of Pakistan.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

> ndia claims to have lost or been robbed of the instrument of accession in the summer of 1995.



You are from the Indian govt to be so categorical?


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

asaad-ul-islam said:


> then why do you keep on bringing up the same issue with balochistan and NWFP, they are not disputed areas. is it because you are running out of arguments or that you can't defend your stand on kashmir?
> 
> 
> the key figure is Prince Karim Khan, the Khan of *Kalat* claimed independence in 1948. he was not in control of the entire landmass, only Kalat. The Bughti and Mengal tribes contributed to the cause of the federation because they rejected his rule.
> 
> 
> like i said, "look at how far the pashtunistan issue got? no where." More literally, it didn't even start at all. these pashtunistan fanatics ALWAYS come from afghanistan.
> 
> You need only go to Peshawar or any other tribal area for independence day to see for yourself. Is Bacha Khan remembered or eulogized at all, no! Pashtuns have always been at the forefront of this country and always will be. They form the increasing bulk of our military and practically run our intelligence agencies.
> 
> The Sikhs whom you claim to be so loyal caused more problems for you and actually went against the state for independence. Even if we consider Baitullah Mehsud, who by the way *is disowned by the tribals, taliban, and even the other pakistani taliban factions*, was fighting against the writ of the state, we must note that he did not at all fight for independence. None of the taliban(imposters in pakistan) want independence, rather they want control over our govt. As long as they do not break away from us, they are still OUR miscreants.



Come come.

Answer my post in detail and not in obfuscation.

Sikhs have not caused problems to India. Bindranwala is not the only Sikhs. Notice and rebellion amongst them?

Can't say the same for certain parts of Pakistan.

If Mehsud is disowned by all, then why is he causing so much brouhaha?

Indeed the Pashtuns are the backbone. Maybe they want to run the country in addition to other important things they are doing!


----------



## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I am not arguing that the resolutions can be implemented in their entirety at this point in history, but that it is flawed to suggest that Pakistan was the one the caused the lack of implementation due to a refusal to withdraw its forces.
> 
> The problem isn't even the UN resolutions, but the fact that for all the noise of "bilateral this and that", when time comes for bilateral negotiations, India merely attempts to play out the clock.



Well, can you convince me that Pakistan has tried its best to get a result out of the negotiations?


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## Tiki Tam Tam

If indeed India is playing out the clock, what stops Pakistan to do otherwise?


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## UnitedPak

Great going Salim and Stealth.

You lose an argument and you flood the thread with one line replies asking for detailed explanations and lengthy convincing.
And its almost cute how you divert the attention away from Indias role in this, and focus on everything else.

I will wait for your amazing comeback insulting my English like you did before, and we can return to running in endless circles.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

I warms the coc'lkles of my heart that someone is amazed.

You leave me speechless as you are speechless!


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## UnitedPak

Salim said:


> I warms the coc'lkles of my heart that someone is amazed.
> 
> You leave me speechless as you are speechless!



Yet another thought provoking argument from Salim.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Salim said:


> If Pakistan agreed to withdraw its troops, so be it.
> 
> Why the reluctance?



The answer is in the post with the UN resolutions Salim.

And also note my comments at the end.


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

Salim said:


> Come come.
> 
> Answer my post in detail and not in obfuscation.



it's nice how you're trying to advance your diction in your posts, I bet your teacher encourages you to do that. however, it's important you learn a bit more about syntax and most importantly, when to use these words.

I explained things to you in a more simple way so that your over-inflated ego would not be humbled in this discussion, likely by agnostic muslim.
I've come to realize that you have nothing left to throw at me, so you insist on running around in circles with insults.



Salim said:


> Sikhs have not caused problems to India. Bindranwala is not the only Sikhs. Notice and rebellion amongst them?
> 
> Can't say the same for certain parts of Pakistan.



If you insist on drawing comparisons between kashmir and balochistan based on tensions, I'm for the opinion that the 1984 Golden Temple incident says different.



Salim said:


> If Mehsud is disowned by all, then why is he causing so much brouhaha?



I don't think you properly grasped my point, "*is disowned by the tribals, taliban, and even the other pakistani taliban factions*" You're not implying that the tribals fully support Mehsud, let alone the Mullah Omar? Mehsud bombed tribal jirgas, I don't think he could have done anything more stupid.

he's running on the short supply of men from his own tribe, who fear execution for treason. Mehsud has beheaded his own men who were accused of treason. the tribals residing in Swat do not want the Fazlullah version of Shari'ah law anymore. they're put up with their women being slaughtered for ridiculous reasons.



Salim said:


> Indeed the Pashtuns are the backbone. Maybe they want to run the country in addition to other important things they are doing!


This is really pathetic, I'm really dissappointed with you Salim. Quit wasting everyone's time. if you can't handle a mature discussion, you might as well as leave this forum. I've had enough with minors under 18 and people who resort to cowardly insults when their arguments are torn apart.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Stealth Assassin said:


> Well, can you convince me that Pakistan has tried its best to get a result out of the negotiations?



I don't have to Stealth - when you admitted yourself so many posts ago that India is merely interested in perpetuating the Status Quo, and trying to "integrate" the Kashmiris by force and/or development.

When you admit that is India's policy, a policy of "dilly dallying" essentially (WRT to resolving the issue with Pakistan), then there is no need for me to show anything about what Pakistan has done.

Notice which nation keeps calling for ignoring the Kashmir dispute and moving on to trade and other issues.


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## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I don't have to Stealth - when you admitted yourself so many posts ago that India is merely interested in perpetuating the Status Quo, and trying to "integrate" the Kashmiris by force and/or development.
> 
> When you admit that is India's policy, a policy of "dilly dallying" essentially (WRT to resolving the issue with Pakistan), then there is no need for me to show anything about what Pakistan has done.
> 
> Notice which nation keeps calling for ignoring the Kashmir dispute and moving on to trade and other issues.



But then I can retort by saying that Pakistan has sabotaged Kashmir by alternating between proxy war and open war....thus making it impossible to conduct any negotiations....

...so we're stuck, aren't we?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Stealth Assassin said:


> But then I can retort by saying that Pakistan has sabotaged Kashmir by alternating between proxy war and open war....thus making it impossible to conduct any negotiations....
> 
> ...so we're stuck, aren't we?



Not at all - the support for the insurgency, and the insurgency itself, is a result of people believing that India is not sincere about resolving the issue through diplomatic channels, hence the resort to violence. 

So even here I argue that India is to blame.

And notice that even with the dramatic drop in violence in Kashmir, there is no movement by India on resolving the issue. 

In fact you argue that an end to violence is not enough, that then the separatist groups must "participate in elections" and then India might consider their "agenda".

So essentially more of the same, regardless of what the situation on the ground is - continuously shifting goal posts - a lack of sincerity in resolving the dispute with Pakistan.


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## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Not at all - the support for the insurgency, and the insurgency itself, is a result of people believing that India is not sincere about resolving the issue through diplomatic channels, hence the resort to violence.



What came first...the chicken or the egg?



> And notice that even with the dramatic drop in violence in Kashmir, there is no movement by India on resolving the issue.



Dunno...there seems to be a lot of movement...J&K CM just held a meeting with Manmohan over greater autonomy....Pakistani PM seems eager to solve the issue...official Indo-Pak talks are being held on May 21st...trade across the LOC is being discussed.

I'd say things are moving pretty quickly...

Of course, it depends on how things behave over the summer...since summertime is peak militant activity...with melting snow, infiltration jumps.



> In fact you argue that an end to violence is not enough, that then the separatist groups must "participate in elections" and then India might consider their "agenda".



I'm just speculating...I have no idea what is going to happen.

Jeez...please...and this applies to everybody on this forum...try to differenciate between the word of Manmohan Singh and some jobless student.



> So essentially more of the same, regardless of what the situation on the ground is - continuously shifting goal posts - a lack of sincerity in resolving the dispute with Pakistan.



Lets see...personally, I feel that India will hold on to kashmir as long as it can, for several very clinching reasons.

However, if the current Indo-Pak momentum continues, you might just see some significant changes in the valley.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Gentlemen - Please take the tangential Balochistan and FATA discussion to an appropriate thread, there are several.


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## roadrunner

Stealth Assassin said:


> Doesn't the Shimla Accord overrule the UN Resolution?



The UN resolutions overrule Simla Agreement according to International Law. 

"The Charter also embodies certain principles of international law, including those on the peaceful settlement of disputes and the use of force, as well as the right of self-defence. And (and this may be its chief constitutional element) it provides that in *the event of a conflict between obligations under the Charter and obligations under any other international agreement, the obligations under the Charter prevail*" 
http://www.law.leeds.ac.uk/leedslaw/webdocs/leedslaw/uploadeddocuments/cfig-wood.doc 

However, even Simla Agreement says the UN resolutions will be followed.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Stealth:*



> eez...please...and this applies to everybody on this forum...try to differenciate between the word of Manmohan Singh and some jobless student.



lol.

I thought you got into something a few months ago? 

I agree with you on how there are certain improvements taking place, and I also agree with you that if militancy remains at the levels it has with a democratic government in place in Pakistan, it might be interpreted as a lasting change.

Trade and travel across the LOC is an extremely important step, and I think that if it blossoms, and reduces the sense of "division" and alienation among the Kashmiris, it might result in more support (from the Kashmiris) for some sort of solution that looks at the LOC as a solution, with perhaps both Kashmir's enjoying the special status they have currently, but within each country.


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## roadrunner

Stealth Assassin said:


> But then I can retort by saying that Pakistan has sabotaged Kashmir by alternating between proxy war and open war....thus making it impossible to conduct any negotiations....
> 
> ...so we're stuck, aren't we?



Even if it were a proxy war being carried out by Pakistan, isn't it justified? If Bangladesh invades India (imagine), then says "we're waiting for every Indian terrorist to stop fighting us, then we'll leave", you'd be outraged I'm sure by such reasoning. Why then apply a different standard to Kashmir? India invades Kashmir, then grabs Kashmir by force, incorporates it into the Indian Constitution against the will of the Kashmiri people, and then complains when Kashmiris fight back! Where is the logic to what you say? 

(Btw, Pakistan isn't involved in the proxy war in Kashmir. It is a home grown rebellion).


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## Flintlock

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *Stealth:*
> lol.
> 
> I thought you got into something a few months ago?



Yeah dude...my uni project is going on...don't worry, I"m doing brilliantly


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## Tiki Tam Tam

roadrunner said:


> (Btw, Pakistan isn't involved in the proxy war in Kashmir. It is a home grown rebellion).



Amusing!!



> Beginning of a new trend
> 
> 
> By Dr Tariq Rahman
> 
> THE last fortnight has seen about half a dozen bombings leading to violent deaths in the country. The pattern followed is that of suicide attacks which were common in Palestine/Israel and then in Iraq.
> 
> Pakistan has seen a lot of sectarian violence in the last 20 years, attacks on the military leadership during the last five years and some suicide attacks. However, with so many incidents coming in a row, one fears that this may be the beginning of a new trend, a grisly beginning to an ending nobody knows.
> 
> While the sectarian nature of some attacks may be conceded, most are attacks on the symbols of the state or its ruling elite. Indeed, with the women students of Islamabad&#8217;s religious seminaries up in arms and the Jamaat-i-Islami condemning Musharraf&#8217;s Kashmir policy openly, the ongoing confrontation between parts of the state and the radical Islamists seems to have entered a new phase.
> 
> Whether we will be unsafe when we leave our homes, whether our children will be threatened with death in their schools or whether the state will descend into anarchy &#8211; these questions remain unanswered. But what has created such conditions can be given some partial answers. This is attempted below.
> 
> *One answer is that the ruling elite of Pakistan itself dug the hole in which it finds itself. First, it passed the Objectives Resolution which did away with the theoretical basis of democracy (rule by the people &#8211; &#8216;demos&#8217 by declaring that sovereignty lies with God. This looks fine on paper but, if you think about it, God&#8217;s will or intention or the meaning of His sacred texts will be interpreted by human beings. And, of course, these interpreters are the ulema &#8211; that, at least, is the claim of the religious forces in the country.
> 
> 
> In short, without saying so, our founding fathers laid down the basis for a Sunni version of the Velayat-i-Faqih. However, being hypocritical, the ruling elite always denied real power to the ulema in the apparatus of the state.*
> 
> The power rested with the bureaucracy and the military &#8211; later the military dominated other elitist groups &#8211; and they co-opted the ulema as well as the feudal landowners.
> 
> *In order to curb ethnicity and to keep ruling East Bengal, Balochistan, Sindh and the NWFP, the military elite, which was predominantly Punjabi, kept using the symbols of Islam and Urdu.
> 
> 
> However, when symbols are used by the education system, the TV, the radio and the press, they tend to become homogenised and widespread. Thus, the ordinary Pakistani became pro-war, anti-India, anti-Israel and anti-West.
> 
> 
> All these positions were couched in the idiom of religion. Hence, purely secular, nationalistic endeavours &#8211; like ruling East Bengal and winning the whole Kashmir state for Pakistan &#8211; were made to appear as Islamic endeavours. That is why the resistance to General Musharraf&#8217;s deviation from some previous policies seems to be against Islam itself to some of his opponents. This is one of the many holes the ruling elite dug for itself.*
> 
> During 1971 Yahya Khan&#8217;s government used the idiom of religion to suppress Bengalis. The militant organisations Al-Shams and Al-Badar were created and supported by the military. Then, during the Afghan war the American proxy war against the Soviet army was also called a jihad. Pakistan participated enthusiastically in it and militants fighting in the name of Islam came to Pakistan and some settled down here.
> 
> The effects of the Mujahideen victory in Afghanistan and the earlier Iranian revolution soon became visible in Pakistan where Islam was of the Barelvi type. It was mixed up with the veneration of the saints and was not of the hard, puritanical type. However, American and Saudi money increased the Deobandi and Ahl-i-Hadith presence so much that a harder, more radical and inflexible interpretation of Islam gained prominence at least in the NWFP and Balochistan. The Iranian revolution raised political consciousness and also gave Islamists the idea that they too could gain power in the modern world.
> 
> *Then, most significantly, the Pakistani state (through the army and the intelligence agencies) began to use Islamic militants to fight a proxy war with India in Kashmir . Many of these militant groups were also anti-Shia. Thus, one fallout of the proxy war in Kashmir was the violence against the Shias which started during Ziaul Haq&#8217;s time and has not come to an end till now.*
> 
> The organisations, trained in the battlegrounds of Afghanistan and Kashmir and brought up on the doctrine of hatred, challenged the state several times. When General Musharraf took power even earlier than 9/11, the journal Sahifa Ahle Hadith (Karachi) condemned him as a stooge of America. This position is reminiscent of Sayyid Qutb&#8217;s (1906-66) theory of &#8216;jahiliyah&#8217; &#8211; that modern culture as well as the ruling elite in Muslim countries are like the pre-Islamic Arab society (i.e. sunk in ignorance).
> 
> Before 9/11, such vitriolic condemnation was unusual in Pakistan. After that event, when General Musharraf reversed the policy of proxy war in Kashmir and banned some Islamist organisations, it gained more currency and popular legitimacy.
> 
> General Musharraf sought to co-opt the clergy and created such a political vacuum (mainly by eliminating Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif) that Islam-oriented political parties came to rule the NWFP and Balochistan.
> 
> At the same time, he fought against the Taliban presence and influence in Waziristan and militants who were after his own blood in the country. Now that the Taliban influence has increased in the Pashtun areas in both Afghanistan and Pakistan, the government finds its writ no longer running in much of the tribal areas.
> 
> Not all the policies which have backfired are those of the opportunistic Pakistani ruling elite. Some are those of foreign powers. For instance, Israel&#8217;s unjust policies towards the Palestinians and America&#8217;s support of them, America&#8217;s occupation of Iraq and threat to Iran, Britain&#8217;s enhanced vigilance of its Muslim population, Europe&#8217;s mistrust of Muslims and, of course, Muslim resistance and intransigence to western values &#8211; all of these are contributing to the hardening of attitudes.
> 
> One of the lessons of the Iraq war which the militants seem to have learned is that indiscriminate violence and that of a highly ruthless kind, pay dividends. This is what is happening in Pakistan. The militant Islamists are striking out at targets which will spread terror. Low-paid employees are dying. One hopes that they do not become so disheartened that they lose heart in defending sensitive places.
> 
> There are several other related problems which may strengthen the militants further. First, our common people have been given a diet of nationalism and jingoism in the idiom of Islam for a long time. They may reject policies to create peace with India in relation to Kashmir with such intensity as to revive the proxy war in that region. This would strengthen the militants.
> 
> Second, there may be functionaries of state who still believe in using the militants in Kashmir. They may be biding their time in the hope that their previous policies will be revived some day. They too will keep militants powerful.
> 
> Third, General Musharraf, in order to eliminate the threat of Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif, will reduce the strength of the moderates and, indirectly, strengthen the Islamic forces as a whole.
> 
> Fourth, the United States may attack Iran, or let Israel do so, which will create more Islamic militants in Pakistan and elsewhere. And, lastly, the Americans will perpetuate such horrors in Iraq that its only response will be increased Islamic militancy all over the world with spillover effects in Pakistan.
> 
> As we can see, the ruling elite of Pakistan can change some of these variables but not all. Even those it can change it may not, because changes will be against powerful sections of the elite. Moreover, changes such as reducing the contents of textbooks which are anti-India and pro-war will be seen as playing into the hands of the US and will be resisted.
> 
> However, if changes are not made -- such as encouraging the genuine participation of all political leaders and parties in the political process, giving pro-peace messages through the media and incorporating these in textbooks, abandoning all forms of militancy in Kashmir &#8212; this country will slide into mayhem and anarchy.
> 
> Our airports, railway stations, bus stops, schools and hospitals will become unsafe. We do not want that to happen. Can we stop it from happening? Perhaps not, but we can at least understand what is at stake and oppose policies which make us so unsafe.
> 
> DAWN - Opinion; February 13, 2007



This is from DAWN.

There is no proxy war and they are talking out of their bonnet?

Why live in a state of denial?

But, of course, if you are ignorant of the issue, then that is a different matter!


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## roadrunner

Salim said:


> Amusing!!
> 
> 
> 
> This is from DAWN.
> 
> There is no proxy war and they are talking out of their bonnet?
> 
> Why live in a state of denial?
> 
> But, of course, if you are ignorant of the issue, then that is a different matter!



Newspaper journalists tend to be not so bright or accurate "dude". Anyway, it is acknowledged that the major militant movements in Kashmir are the Kashmiris themselves - Hizbul..Even the Indian government admits this. There might be some degree of cross border infiltration by some smaller groups, but the big groups are Kashmir grown.


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## roadrunner

Salim said:


> And if you are fro such a jihadi family, why are you not there??





dabong1 said:


> I was talked out of it by an al badr commander......they want us to raise money and create awarness.
> For every 1 freedom fighter on the field there are 4 people behind him to keep him going.
> Who drives the cars,cooks,raises money ect.......every person can not go and fight.
> Out of a million indian soilders how many actually fight and how many are behind them in supporting roles.



Without intentionally derailing this thread. This was an amusing exchange  I would have to agree with Salim, and his "why are you not there" line of questioning 

Being "talked out of it by an Al-Badr commander  Else no doubts our resident Rambo would have been making the armies round the world bleed! Lucky for the armies! Instead he wants other people to die for a cause he isn't prepared to fight in himself! What heroism! Quelle h&#233;ro&#239;sme!


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## Vinod2070

On the same lines, I once saw a good post by a Pakistani member on this forum where he lamented that the only person who needs to die in a terrorist attack is the terrorist himself. All others in the chain who are bigger culprits roam around freely and they are free to replace the dead terrorist by brainwashing the youth. They even get to chose which widow to marry after the terrorist becomes a "martyr"!

Of course he was talking about the Pakistani Taliban terrorists murdering innocents in mosques and market places, but I guess the same is true for all terrorist organizations, at least those operating in Kashmir. 

Hafeez Sayeed does not worry about his personal life being at danger when he sends crazed fanatics to die in India. So do the others in "support functions".

Once they are made to feel a constant danger in the "support" and "motivation" roles, I am sure many of them will be "talked out" of that role too by someone!


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## roadrunner

Vinod2070 said:


> Of course he was talking about the Pakistani Taliban terrorists murdering innocents in mosques and market places, but I guess the same is true for all terrorist organizations, at least those operating in Kashmir.



I would agree that terrorists murdering innocents in mosques and market places is wrong, and firmly believe the Indian Army stop commiting such acts in Kashmir  

Document - India: Impunity must end in Jammu and Kashir | Amnesty International
Thousands lost in Kashmir mass graves | Amnesty International 
Human Rights Watch Report (1999) 
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/kashmir/1996/India-09.htm#TopOfPage 
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/kashmir/1996/India-07.htm#TopOfPage 
Behind the Kashmir Conflict - Threats against Human Rights Defenders (Human Rights Watch Report, July 1999)


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Stealth:*


> What came first...the chicken or the egg?


IIRC, the insurgency started in 1989, so I would argue that Indian "dilly dallying" caused the insurgency - you had 42 years of no movement towards a resolution.

As far as Pakistan was concerned, Indian aggression in 1971 and on Siachen cemented the view that not only was India not interested in resolving the dispute diplomatically, but also in weakening Pakistan as much as it could. Within that context, Pakistan cannot be blamed for supporting the insurgency once it started (or even helping start it).


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Actually, the cross border terrorism in India has gone on for so long that it has become a part of life.

There appears to be no light at the end of the tunnel since it is a three way perception at play - India, Pakistan and the terrorists.


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## Captain03

US-based Kashmiri girl protests against HR violations in IHK | Kashmir Media Service
Srinagar, January 03 (KMS): A Kashmiri girl, Raheela S Narchoor, studying in the United States, marched alone on the streets of America to protest against the gross human rights violations perpetrated by Indian troops in occupied Kashmir.

Raheela, a human rights student in Indiana University School of Law, in a sub zero temperature marched without a sweater or a jacket to express solidarity with the Kashmiri women who had been raped or molested by the troops during the past 19-years. Her march attracted much attention in Indiana and was later joined by the other students holding placards at Sample Gates that read, &#8220;stop human rights violations in Kashmir&#8221; and &#8220;Kashmir in Tears.&#8221;

Raheela gave a brief speech about how political events have shaped up in occupied Kashmir. She said, &#8220;I grew up in conflict which brought an inner determination in me to contribute towards social change that would provide the freedom and peace to each human being,&#8221; Raheela told Srinagar media men over phone from the US.

&#8220;My neighbour was subjected to enforced disappearance by the troops in 1996. He left four daughters and a half widow. He was the only breadwinner of the family. His disappearance left an impact on my mind and I studied various disappearance cases, which prompted me to pursue human rights subject,&#8221; she said.

Raheela hoped that the people of Kashmir will one day be able to live in peace. &#8220;People should live with dignity and there isn&#8217;t dignity in Kashmir,&#8221; she added.

*damn if theres a protest in nyc for kashmiri independence i would join, but i honor the girl for making a stand  *

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## roopesh

I know in Pak forum this going to be HOT TOPIC. If she has any problems she has every right to protest, take the case to supreme court. I believe atleast Indian Muslim community will stand for her. I will tell you guys breaking the country is not a joke; even similar protests happen in India daily not only about kashmir its about states. Border villages claim that they wanted to be part of neighbour state etc etc. Govt is responsible for their social life but not their comfort. Take ur butt out of the state and live where ever u want

Same goes with this gal. If her social life getting screwed either she can relocate anywhere in the counry or take it to the right place for her personl problem. Kashmir belongs not only to her; it belongs to 100 crore Indians. Today Indian Home Minister told that we are addressing all the issues in the country and we will listen to anyones protest if its toward Integrity of the NATION. If not *&*&* off.


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## UnitedPak

roopesh said:


> I know in Pak forum this going to be HOT TOPIC. Today Indian Home Minister told that we are addressing all the issues in the country and we will listen to anyones protest if its toward Integrity of the NATION. If not *&*&* off.
> Even this GIRL if she has any problems she has every right to protest, take the case to supreme court. I believe atleast Indian Muslim community will stand for her. If she does all these drama of KASHMIR story no one will listen and we cant give KASHMIR for these fake drama even 100000 more ppl join.



Yes, Kashmiris have a problem, a very big problem at that, and last time they protested peacefully, they were fired upon by Indian troops.
No vote or protest can be carried out in the presence of 1 million Indian troops. Kashmir is a police state in the truest sense of the word. The sooner you admit this, the less humiliating the justice to Kashmiris will be for India.

And dont ever call it 'fake drama' again. I know you would rather want your opinion on Kashmir to matter, but only the Kashmiri people themselves should be given the spotlight on these matters. Dont discourage when they finally have a chance to protest in a neutral zone without 1 million Indian troops.

Indian Muslims cant even eat beef without fearing another massacre, any comments regarding Kashmir will be disastrous. Arent they still seeking forgiveness for what happened in Mumbai?


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## roopesh

Captain03 said:


> stop human rights violations in Kashmir and Kashmir in Tears. I studied various disappearance cases, which prompted me to pursue human rights subject, she said..


You better join the team of LET or some terror gang and teach them about HUMAN RIGHTS dear. 


Captain03 said:


> Raheela hoped that the people of Kashmir will one day be able to live in peace. People should live with dignity and there isnt dignity in Kashmir, she added.


Yes we hope to. But Not unfortunately till they kill every TERRORS.


Captain03 said:


> damn if theres a protest in nyc for kashmiri independence i would join, but i honor the girl for making a stand



Well you can also start One bhai; Not just kashmir add few more states. No Problem.


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## UnitedPak

roopesh said:


> Yes we hope to. But Not unfortunately till they kill every TERRORS.



If your troops are so damn terrified, get them out of Kashmir.


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## roopesh

UnitedPak said:


> Yes, Kashmiris have a problem, a very big problem at that, and last time they protested peacefully, they were fired upon by Indian troops. No vote or protest can be carried out in the presence of 1 million Indian troops. Kashmir is a police state in the truest sense of the word. The sooner you admit this, the less humiliating the justice to Kashmiris will be for India.



Dear UnitedPak, I know Kashmir is very emotional to every pakistani as well as Indian. OK. Both the countries are emotionally attached and I dont expect any solution in near future. Pakistan govt should achieve normal life in pak controlled Kashmir (PCK-Again pak ppl wont agree with this word). Indian govt should achieve normal life in Indian controller Kashmir (Indians might kill me). . 



UnitedPak said:


> And dont ever call it 'fake drama' again. I know you would rather want your opinion on Kashmir to matter, but only the Kashmiri people themselves should be given the spotlight on these matters.



First is internal peace. Now there are so many terror camps inside the Indian kashmir that need to be destroyed. The terror might be kashmiri, Indian, hindu Islam, Pakistani anyone ,,,,he should be killed first. No one is allowed to take GUN against the govt according to Indian law. Thre is no compramise.



UnitedPak said:


> Dont discourage when they finally have a chance to protest in a neutral zone without 1 million Indian troops.


I think you have got a point here. * They have right to protest pecefully anywhere and even within India. I agree with u.*



UnitedPak said:


> Indian Muslims cant even eat beef without fearing another massacre, any comments regarding Kashmir will be disastrous. Arent they still seeking forgiveness for what happened in Mumbai?



I didnt get your view on Mumbai. Could you pls explain. When it comes to BEEF i dont know the facts. I need to do some RnD. 800 million ppl feel its a god. Again it might be another controvertial issue betwen Hindu and Muslim. But as I understand you can get BEEF in India. but with some regulations.


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## roopesh

UnitedPak said:


> If your troops are so damn terrified, get them out of Kashmir.



LOL you are talking about taking the INDIAN troops out of Indian Kashmir? DO you think its ever going to happen? Indian troops just backed off for cold and u know resulted in Kargil....
The day Indian troops are out of kashmir within 10 mins it doenst belong to India anymore. 



UnitedPak said:


> I know you would rather want your opinion on Kashmir to matter, but only the Kashmiri people themselves should be given the spotlight on these matters.


Who is Kashmiri? The terrors gangs? Today Kashmir assembly dont have single represenatative from pandits group. Do you know several decads back pandits are major population there? Many families including muslims are relocating to different parts of the country. Do you know what would have happened if its USA? They would have relocared the whole kashmir ppl to some other place and declared its a military state.


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## ju87

Pandits protest `communalisation` of Amarnath land issue
PTI
New Delhi, June 29: Scores of Kashmiri Pandits on Sunday took to the streets in the national capital to protest the "communalisation and politicisation" of the Amarnath shrine land issue.
-
The protestors under the aegis of 'roots in Kashmir' blocked traffic at Jantar Mantar for some time and criticized Governor N N Vohra for deciding not to pursue the transfer of forestland to the shrine board for developmental activities.
-
The activists also burnt the effigies of Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) leaders Mehbooba Mufti and Muzaffar Baig and JKLF'S Yasin Malik for allegedly communalising the issue.
-
Criticising the Governor, who also heads the board, the protestors claimed that the transfer of land benefit locals as well as pilgrims.
-
Jammu and Kashmir has witnessed violent protests over the past few days after the state government decided to transfer forestland to the shrine board for developmental activities.
-
"The ongoing crisis in the state is a well crafted exercise by separatists and some anti-national forces. It comes at a time when the pilgrimage to the shrine is in progress. The furore that has been created over the simple transfer of land clearly reveals the real agenda of these forces," Amal magazine of 'roots in Kashmir' said.
-
Jantar Mantar, New Delhi

Roots In Kashmir: Kashmiri Pandits Protest against Communal Propaganda over Amarnath Shrine

There are two sides to the issue.


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## Communist

roopesh said:


> I know in Pak forum this going to be HOT TOPIC. If she has any problems she has every right to protest, take the case to supreme court. I believe atleast Indian Muslim community will stand for her. I will tell you guys breaking the country is not a joke; even similar protests happen in India daily not only about kashmir its about states. Border villages claim that they wanted to be part of neighbour state etc etc. Govt is responsible for their social life but not their comfort. Take ur butt out of the state and live where ever u want
> 
> Same goes with this gal. If her social life getting screwed either she can relocate anywhere in the counry or take it to the right place for her personl problem. Kashmir belongs not only to her; it belongs to 100 crore Indians. Today Indian Home Minister told that we are addressing all the issues in the country and we will listen to anyones protest if its toward Integrity of the NATION. If not *&*&* off.



Yes breaking the country is not a joke. True. Also killing over 80,000 people including 75 years' old as well as 6 years old girl is not a joke. 

And Kashmiri hindus? Had they ever tried to accept the Kashmiri Muslims as human beings with same dignity and social prestige? Had they ever talked about peaceful co-existence? Look, Kashmiri Muslims are not like those rural downtrodden Muslims of the Murshidabad district of Bengal. Those are converted Muslims who had earlier been hidus, but later due to the Upper caste particularly Brahmin hindu oppression, got converted into Islam where there is no caste and no race based discrimination, according to the Shariya. Anyway, Kashmiri Muslims were not ready to be treated like slaves under the hindu rule. So they want freedom. Thus, hindus are historically responsible as the Congress hindu leadership made Muhammad Ali Zinnah, who had earlier been a secular, modern and western educated person, realize what it means to be a slave. 

And Supreme Court? She would have been killed in a fake encounter, had ever she tried to push an appeal file in the Supreme Court. Either you are deliberately suppressing the facts or you are ignorant about the true nature of indian judicial affairs. 

Yes Kashmir not only belongs to her. But her home, her memories, her near and dear ones belong to her and you 100 crore indians cannot snatch that away from her. NEVER. She may not care for the whole Kashmir, but she cares for her home and her family members. She is much more courageous than us. RED SALUTE to her. 

Kashmir will surely get Azadi. AZAD KASHMIR ZINDABAD.

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## Communist

roopesh said:


> LOL you are talking about taking the INDIAN troops out of Indian Kashmir? DO you think its ever going to happen? Indian troops just backed off for cold and u know resulted in Kargil....
> *The day Indian troops are out of kashmir within 10 mins it doenst belong to India anymore.*



It is called occupation. Get the definition of the term from a good dictionary. 

brutal oppressive occupational forces

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## Captain03

roopesh said:


> I know in Pak forum this going to be HOT TOPIC. If she has any problems she has every right to protest, take the case to supreme court. I believe atleast Indian Muslim community will stand for her. I will tell you guys breaking the country is not a joke; even similar protests happen in India daily not only about kashmir its about states. Border villages claim that they wanted to be part of neighbour state etc etc. Govt is responsible for their social life but not their comfort. Take ur butt out of the state and live where ever u want
> 
> Same goes with this gal. If her social life getting screwed either she can relocate anywhere in the counry or take it to the right place for her personl problem. Kashmir belongs not only to her; it belongs to 100 crore Indians. Today Indian Home Minister told that we are addressing all the issues in the country and we will listen to anyones protest if its toward Integrity of the NATION. If not *&*&* off.



seems like u dont know much about kashmir or kashmiri people


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## Captain03

roopesh said:


> You better join the team of LET or some terror gang and teach them about HUMAN RIGHTS dear.
> 
> Yes we hope to. But Not unfortunately till they kill every TERRORS.
> 
> 
> Well you can also start One bhai; Not just kashmir add few more states. No Problem.



kashmir is not a state of india


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## Captain03

roopesh srry to say man but it looks like u dont know much about kashmir or kashmiris
u have the right to comment on anything u want but u should have stayed out of this conversation because ur statements are really making ur sense of knowledge look bad


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## roopesh

Communist said:


> Yes breaking the country is not a joke. True. Also killing over 80,000 people including 75 years' old as well as 6 years old girl is not a joke.



Do you have a count after Independece years and except in war situations how many ppl killed in Kashmir who are common citizens. Do you have idea how many ppl army is loosing them daily. 



Communist said:


> Anyway, Kashmiri Muslims were not ready to be treated like slaves under the hindu rule. So they want freedom. Thus, hindus are historically responsible as the Congress hindu leadership made Muhammad Ali Zinnah, who had earlier been a secular, modern and western educated person, realize what it means to be a slave.



The issue of upper caste/slave existed all over the country. The poor would be a slave. The society has changed and the issues have solved. Take west bengal in this case. Still slave system going on. Protests are going on. But never with Kashmir. Do you know Hindu/Muslim population in kashmir today? Do you know mulsim population in the assembly? NO Where in KASHMIR HINDUS are ruling now. Show me the statics and explain how. 

Do you have any idea *why ppl entering kashmir from the borders and their relation to kashmir. Do you know how many ppl in anti-nationalism against India in kashmir region *. 



Communist said:


> Yes Kashmir not only belongs to her. But her home, her memories, her near and dear ones belong to her and you 100 crore indians cannot snatch that away from her. NEVER. She may not care for the whole Kashmir, but she cares for her home and her family members. She is much more courageous than us. RED SALUTE to her.


Totally agree with you. She has every right to protest against her personal damage.



Communist said:


> Kashmir will surely get Azadi. AZAD KASHMIR ZINDABAD.


It will get from Terrors. True Azadi. Not from the fake ppl entering the region in the name of fake kashmirs and trying to challenge India. NEVER EVER THEY CAN GET IT.


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## rubyjackass

Communist said:


> Yes breaking the country is not a joke. True. Also killing over 80,000 people including 75 years' old as well as 6 years old girl is not a joke.
> 
> And Kashmiri hindus? Had they ever tried to accept the Kashmiri Muslims as human beings with same dignity and social prestige? Had they ever talked about peaceful co-existence? Look, Kashmiri Muslims are not like those rural downtrodden Muslims of the Murshidabad district of Bengal. Those are converted Muslims who had earlier been hidus, but later due to the Upper caste particularly Brahmin hindu oppression, got converted into Islam where there is no caste and no race based discrimination, according to the Shariya. Anyway, Kashmiri Muslims were not ready to be treated like slaves under the hindu rule. So they want freedom. Thus, hindus are historically responsible as the Congress hindu leadership made Muhammad Ali Zinnah, who had earlier been a secular, modern and western educated person, realize what it means to be a slave.
> 
> And Supreme Court? She would have been killed in a fake encounter, had ever she tried to push an appeal file in the Supreme Court. Either you are deliberately suppressing the facts or you are ignorant about the true nature of indian judicial affairs.
> 
> Yes Kashmir not only belongs to her. But her home, her memories, her near and dear ones belong to her and you 100 crore indians cannot snatch that away from her. NEVER. She may not care for the whole Kashmir, but she cares for her home and her family members. She is much more courageous than us. RED SALUTE to her.
> 
> Kashmir will surely get Azadi. AZAD KASHMIR ZINDABAD.



Please know the facts before you comment. Look at the number of muslim candidates and Hindu candidates in the State Assembly in the recent years. 
And people have very wrong idea of brahmin domination and stuff. I mean you are still living in history like in the ages of kings when bramhins were said to be respected. And other caste people are much less orthodox.
Count the number of brahmins in national cabinet and all state cabinets. You will be surprised. Also I wont be surprised if I found that this forum has no brahmin members at all.
And yes she has every right to protest of any human rights violation. Nobody prevents her from protesting in India.


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## roopesh

Captain03 said:


> roopesh srry to say man but it looks like u dont know much about kashmir or kashmiris...u have the right to comment on anything u want but u should have stayed out of this conversation because ur statements are really making ur sense of knowledge look bad



Might be TRUE! I am not most knowlegeble. ARE YOU? As a pakistani you said Kashmir is not a state of India. What is it then? 

From the day India and Pak got seperated where was Kashmir? who controlled it till the India/Pak war. ? Even today Nehru who agreed for todays LOC critisized for his action.

Can u give more details pls for everyone understanding. Also explain when Kashmir was part of Pakistan and when did India occupy it?


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## Communist

DR Roopesh and Rubyjackass, Please do not expect the jawans of indian army to be people of good hearts and remain sensitive and merciful when dealing with a deprived community. There are many evidences, personally I have one banned documentary film in a CD format which one of my JNU friends gave me one year ago. I would feel glad if I could show that to you. And I am sure, it would also change your minds. Well, you can watch this out for an idea just... 

YouTube - History of Kashmir


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## Keysersoze

Mr "communist" please change your flags to the appropriate country. You are not from China


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Poor Raheela - marching in a nation whose government only cares for UNSC resolutions so long as they advance her interests, and support her and her allies warmongering.


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## Captain03

roopesh said:


> Might be TRUE! I am not most knowlegeble. ARE YOU? As a pakistani you said Kashmir is not a state of India. What is it then?
> 
> From the day India and Pak got seperated where was Kashmir? who controlled it till the India/Pak war. ? Even today Nehru who agreed for todays LOC critisized for his action.
> 
> Can u give more details pls for everyone understanding. Also explain when Kashmir was part of Pakistan and when did India occupy it?



Im 100&#37; KASHMIRI
my family lived in kashmiri for centuries [we were nobles [landowners]] and became muslim when islam first came to the region [look up how long thats been]
the only reason my family came to pakistan was to avoid violence and suppression by the indians
we kashmiri people always wanted to be a part of pakistan and 60 years later the situation hasn't changed much
as far as documents and the world view is concerned, kashmir is a DISPUTED TERRITORY not a state
who controlled kashmir?
forget who controls kashmir and will control kashmir, have u ever thought of what the kashmiri people want????
kashmir has been controlled in history by leaders that didnt care what the kashmiris want [still going on 2dayy except for azad kashmir where we have a voice]
we kashmiris were never wanted to be a part of india and inshallah never will be
ACCEPT IT OR U'LL BE LIVING IN DENIAL LIKE THE REST OF THE INDIAN POPULATION

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Captain03 said:


> ACCEPT IT OR U'LL BE LIVING IN DENIAL LIKE THE REST OF THE INDIAN POPULATION



I don't think many of them can - its this irrational, almost evil, expansionist desire, that flies in the face of their legal and moral obligations. Think of the conditions from the Instrument of Partition Indians leaders agreed to - the UNSC resolutions that her government agreed to, that at their core recognize over all else the principle that the Kashmiri people have the right to determine their future status - the right to determine which nation they belong to.

To expect such decency and respect from them for their own governments obligations, agreements and respect for human dignity seems to be asking too much - they bask in the glow of the 'One United Indic Civilization', even if it be based on a mountain of skulls of a peoples who reject it.

You only hear of outrage when 'the symbol of India's economy is attacked', the Taj hotel. The superficiality and egotistical placement of material things and a desire for just grabbing more and more and clinging on to it, the immorality and illegality of their position be damned, is astounding.

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## roopesh

See Guys, I have a Hindu friend from Kashmir. ZUTSHI family. He told most of the Kashmir Pandits had a problem with and they are trying relocate, Ofcourse we wanted to be at Indian side. 
Several decades passed after Independence. PAKISTAN and INDIA both made this as a national issue. Biggest alligation today is Pakistan Controller Kashmir has terror camps. (U agree its wat projected in media) and the violence in Indian controllerd Kashmir is not low. Kashmir is getting fourign fighters every day to fire against Indian Military. 
I dont think Never its going to be a solution to this. If they love pakistan they have to migrate like your family. Samething goes to otherside. 
BUT PEOPLE TAKING A GUN AGAINST THE GOVT IS UNACCEPTABLE. But I doubt peace is not the idea of Kashmir ppl. 

Why does so much violation happen at pak side kashmir?


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## ahmeddsid

Kashmir is a Part of India, and It will Remain so. The time has come to rub off the stupid concept of dividing regions among religions which was left by the British to Divide and Rule!

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## Omar1984

ahmeddsid said:


> Kashmir is a Part of India, and It will Remain so. The time has come to rub off the stupid concept of dividing regions among religions which was left by the British to Divide and Rule!



You're crazy. The entire world sees Kashmir as a DISPUTED TERRITORY, NOT part of India, only India sees it part of India..no other country does.
The Line of Control is not an international boundary.

I know it'll be the worst nightmare for you Indian "Muslims" when Kashmir gets Azaadi because Kashmir is the only Muslim majority state your country CONTROLS.
Yea the only Muslim state, a disputed region all the way up north far away from hindustan and so close to Pakistan, and the people in the region would never call themselves Indian, instead they march on peaceful protests aginst Indian rule while your troops shoot them and you Indian "Muslims" still smile and watch.

India needs to stop living in dreamland.


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## ahmeddsid

Omar1984 said:


> You're crazy. The entire world sees Kashmir as a DISPUTED TERRITORY, NOT part of India, only India sees it part of India..no other country does.
> The Line of Control is not an international boundary.
> 
> I know it'll be the worst nightmare for you Indian "Muslims" when Kashmir gets Azaadi because Kashmir is the only Muslim majority state your country CONTROLS.
> Yea the only Muslim state, a disputed region all the way up north far away from hindustan and so close to Pakistan, and the people in the region would never call themselves Indian, instead they march on peaceful protests aginst Indian rule while your troops shoot them and you Indian "Muslims" still smile and watch.
> 
> India needs to stop living in dreamland.


Muslim Majority, well talking about Majority then we should Divide India right from the state Districts, For Eg: In my State, 2 districts are Muslim Majority, so they should be declared as Muslims Countries or ceded to pakistan right? Come on, stop living in la la land and come down and look. The Day, Pakistan gives up right to indian held Kashmir, then the Indian Army will move back and Total Peace will dawn! Atleast in Kashmir there are no suicide bomb attacks at present like in Lahore or The Marriot Incident! Kashmir is actually more safe than rest of India, due to the Indian Army! God Speed


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## Omar1984

ahmeddsid said:


> Muslim Majority, well talking about Majority then we should Divide India right from the state Districts, For Eg: In my State, 2 districts are Muslim Majority, so they should be declared as Muslims Countries or ceded to pakistan right? Come on, stop living in la la land and come down and look. The Day, Pakistan gives up right to indian held Kashmir, then the Indian Army will move back and Total Peace will dawn! Atleast in Kashmir there are no suicide bomb attacks at present like in Lahore or The Marriot Incident! Kashmir is actually more safe than rest of India, due to the Indian Army! God Speed



I dont think youre Muslim. Even Indian Muslims I've talked to in U.S. say Indian army shouldnt be in Kashmir. Indian army have done so much harm to Kashmiris for the past 61 years. And India just controls ONE Muslim Majority State, I dont know about districts, and the only Muslim Majority State India controls is a DISPUTED REGION all the way up north far away from hindustan on the border with Pakistan. Even Pakistan's Punjab is more north of India's Punjab, take a look at a map...Kashmir is more closer to Pakistan than India, and Pakistan doesnt care about your districts in hindustan. The whole world, including Pakistan, accept tht hyderabad is india and we dont want hyderabad. Kashmir is a disputed region recognized by the entire world as a disputed region so Kashmir is a totally different story. 

A british reporter goes to Indian Occupied Kashmir and finds this:

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## ahmeddsid

Omar1984 said:


> I dont think youre Muslim. Even Indian Muslims I've talked to in U.S. say Indian army shouldnt be in Kashmir. Indian army have done so much harm to Kashmiris for the past 61 years. And India just controls ONE Muslim Majority State, I dont know about districts, and the only Muslim Majority State India controls is a DISPUTED REGION all the way up north far away from hindustan on the border with Pakistan. Even Pakistan's Punjab is more north of India's Punjab, take a look at a map...Kashmir is more closer to Pakistan than India, and Pakistan doesnt care about your districts in hindustan. The whole world, including Pakistan, accept tht hyderabad is india and we dont want hyderabad. Kashmir is a disputed region recognized by the entire world as a disputed region so Kashmir is a totally different story.
> 
> A british reporter goes to Indian Occupied Kashmir and finds this:3GTxykMdzvw[/media] - Indian Army and Police Implicated in Kashmir Killings.01


You are the Nth Pakistani here who has cast doubts on me Being a Muslim!!! Please for Gods Sake, a Moderator checked on me to verify If I was a Muslim and he is satisfied! I too want the Indian army out of Kashmir, but If IA leaves Kashmir now, Pakistan will surely annex it, and we are not dumb to do that. When pakistan gives up claim to Indian Kashmir, IA will pull back. Besides, the Violence level in Kashmir is much lower than in the Lawless NWFP!!!!!


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## Communist

ahmeddsid said:


> Muslim Majority, well talking about Majority then we should Divide India right from the state Districts, For Eg: In my State, 2 districts are Muslim Majority, so they should be declared as Muslims Countries or ceded to pakistan right? Come on, stop living in la la land and come down and look. The Day, Pakistan gives up right to indian held Kashmir, then the Indian Army will move back and Total Peace will dawn! Atleast in Kashmir there are no suicide bomb attacks at present like in Lahore or The Marriot Incident! *Kashmir is actually more safe than rest of India, due to the Indian Army! *God Speed



It is not correct in any way to confuse other indian Muslim populated state districts with Kashmir. The story of Kashmir is different altogether. And Azad Kashmir is not Pakistan. Kashmir is Kashmir. Even if it is Pakistan, then let the inhabitants decide whether they want to see their homes in Pakistani soil or indian soil. They are the inhabitants and so they have the right to decide. Why should other indians (whether indian Muslims or hindus) forcefully occupy their home land, I simply do not understand. 

And Kashmir is safe due to indian army!!! 
Yaar yie kya ho raha hai??

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## Omar1984

ahmeddsid said:


> You are the Nth Pakistani here who has cast doubts on me Being a Muslim!!! Please for Gods Sake, a Moderator checked on me to verify If I was a Muslim and he is satisfied! I too want the Indian army out of Kashmir, but If IA leaves Kashmir now, Pakistan will surely annex it, and we are not dumb to do that. When pakistan gives up claim to Indian Kashmir, IA will pull back. Besides, the Violence level in Kashmir is much lower than in the Lawless NWFP!!!!!



Pakistan will always support Kashmiri people's right for determination and will never accept Kashmir as part of India unless theres a FAIR plebiscite, and when I mean FAIR is no India or Pakistan interference in the plebiscite.

Let Kashmiris hold a fair plebiscite monitored by neutral parties who both Pakistan and India will agree are neutral parties, and lets end this 61 year old dispute by letting Kashmiris decide for themselves what they want for their land, in both sides of LOC.

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## ahmeddsid

Communist said:


> It is not correct in any way to confuse other indian Muslim populated state districts with Kashmir. The story of Kashmir is different altogether. And Azad Kashmir is not Pakistan. Kashmir is Kashmir. Even if it is Pakistan, then let the inhabitants decide whether they want to see their homes in Pakistani soil or indian soil. They are the inhabitants and so they have the right to decide. Why should other indians (whether indian Muslims or hindus) forcefully occupy their home land, I simply do not understand.
> 
> And Kashmir is safe due to indian army!!!
> Yaar yie kya ho raha hai??


For a referendum to happen the all of Kashmir should come together, that means *** should be joined with Indian Kashmir.

There are a sizeable population of Kashmiris who want Independence from Pakistan and India, but Pakistan has already said it cannot accept an Independent Kashmir. Anyways I believe kashmir is Indian. 

Indians cannot migrate to Kashmir and set up homes, And Kashmiris can migrate to anywhere in India!!! Kashmir is given Special Status in Indian Constitution! More Money is pumped into Kashmir than the rest of India! Understand that please. No one can occupy a Kashmiris home!


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## Omar1984

ahmeddsid said:


> For a referendum to happen the all of Kashmir should come together, that means *** should be joined with Indian Kashmir.
> 
> There are a sizeable population of Kashmiris who want Independence from Pakistan and India, but Pakistan has already said it cannot accept an Independent Kashmir. Anyways I believe kashmir is Indian.



I never met a Kashmiri who said he/she is Indian, and if majority want their own independent country they should be able to. Who said no to that idea? Zardari?


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## slugger

ahmeddsid said:


> Indians cannot migrate to Kashmir and set up homes, And Kashmiris can migrate to anywhere in India!!!



Also a Kashmiri woman [irrespective of religion] who chooses to marry a person who is not a domiciled in the the state of Jammu&Kashmir automatically gives up any claim to her parent's property in the stste.


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## ahmeddsid

slugger said:


> Also a Kashmiri woman [irrespective of religion] who chooses to marry a person who is not a domiciled in the the state of Jammu&Kashmir automatically gives up any claim to her parent's property in the stste.


this is the amount of special treatment Kashmir enjoys!


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## Omar1984

ahmeddsid said:


> this is the amount of special treatment Kashmir enjoys!



Yep the special treatment of being tortured and beated by Indian army/police.

Here watch the 2nd and 3rd part of the British report on Indian Occupied Kashmir.

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## Vinod2070

The display of sanctimony by Pakistani members while talking of Kashmir is breathtaking. While you may have convinced yourself of your moral position, the reality is far from it. You tried every dirty trick in the book to grab Kashmir, from war to terror, sent tribals and soldiers to grab Kashmir when it was defenseless and they indulged in massive repression and loot (as is their wont), sent terrorists of all hues and nationalities. All this without a care in the world as to how it effects the average Kashmiri!

When everything failed, you try to preach morality to others!

After your actions all over the region that resulted in massive atrocities in Bangladesh, devastation of Afghanistan, breathtaking misuse of religion that resulted in global terror and Pakistan becoming a hub of it, massive domestic fallout of that heinous policy of state support of terror, the destruction of the civic society, the sectarian gangs, the ISI becoming a rogue agency that the world recognizes now.

Any talk of morality coming from a country with such a background is hypocritical in the extreme!


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## beetel

Omar1984 said:


> Pakistan will always support Kashmiri people's right for determination and will never accept Kashmir as part of India unless theres a FAIR plebiscite, and when I mean FAIR is no India or Pakistan interference in the plebiscite.
> 
> Let Kashmiris hold a fair plebiscite monitored by neutral parties who both Pakistan and India will agree are neutral parties, and lets end this 61 year old dispute by letting Kashmiris decide for themselves what they want for their land, in both sides of LOC.



According to you the wishes of kashmiri people has to be fullfilled ..
Then why pakistan does not agree with the third option ie independence to kashmir in plebiscite..(correct me if I am wrong)
What about those thousands of square km of land of kashmir state which pakistan offerred to china to keep its ***cool..


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## Omar1984

beetel said:


> According to you the wishes of kashmiri people has to be fullfilled ..
> Then why pakistan does not agree with the third option ie independence to kashmir in plebiscite..(correct me if I am wrong)
> What about those thousands of square km of land of kashmir state which pakistan offerred to china to keep its ***cool..



No one in Pakistan's Kashmir is protesting against Pakistan, but in Indian Occupied Kashmir, its a different story. I think you need to refresh your memory on what happened in Indian Occupied Kashmir this past Spring and Summer.

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## beetel

This wont explain my questions..


As far as demonstration is concerned..

basically it was demonstration against land allottment....
Here I dont want to say that anti India people are not there few may be there and India should tolerate them there is no other way..Very much Idea India is nothing but Unity in diversity..and we allready moved in that path long ago..These are challenges on that road where we cant fail...and cant look back...


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## roopesh

If KASHMIR has to become independent state it will become. Why pakistan is involved in it. CAN pakistan declare its controlled kashmir as Independent and get out of there? I dont think so

If pakistan has a favour for kashmir ppl why dont thy announce free citizenship to kashmir ppl and assure peace in pakistan. Show your real ISLAMIC face to the world

See guys kashmir is very stratergically very imp area as it connects russia, china India nad pakistan and rivers. NO country would loose an inch. It directly reflects to whole nation,
SO no matter who does what KASHMIR will be with India.


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## Communist

roopesh said:


> See guys kashmir is very stratergically very imp area as it connects russia, china India nad pakistan and rivers. NO country would loose an inch.



Congrats!! You are growing..!! Now also understand how this strategical position brings disaster to a community, how this Kashmiri Muslim community has been victimized by your own country.... Just a bit of self-criticism and you will realize the facts...


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## indiapakistanfriendship

> Poor Raheela - marching in a nation whose government only cares for UNSC resolutions so long as they advance her interests, and support her and her allies warmongering.



True AM, but then most of the major and regional powers do follow the suit. Saudi and GOP were happy to recognise the Taliban government which was not recognised by the UN. So the question that beckons is at what price does one have to pay.


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## indiapakistanfriendship

> Im 100% KASHMIRI
> my family lived in kashmiri for centuries [we were nobles [landowners]] and became muslim when islam first came to the region [look up how long thats been]
> the only reason my family came to pakistan was to avoid violence and suppression by the indians
> we kashmiri people always wanted to be a part of pakistan and 60 years later the situation hasn't changed much
> as far as documents and the world view is concerned, kashmir is a DISPUTED TERRITORY not a state
> who controlled kashmir?
> forget who controls kashmir and will control kashmir, have u ever thought of what the kashmiri people want????
> kashmir has been controlled in history by leaders that didnt care what the kashmiris want [still going on 2dayy except for azad kashmir where we have a voice]
> *we kashmiris were never wanted to be a part of india and inshallah never will be*ACCEPT IT OR U'LL BE LIVING IN DENIAL LIKE THE REST OF THE INDIAN POPULATION



Err incase you are in IOK you are free to leave to somewhere else. Every inch in IOK equally belogs to me as every inch of mys state belongs to any Indian citizen. To sum it up Kashmir also belogs to Indian citizens as it belogs to Kashmirs themselevs. You can howl abd growl but that is the ground reality. What the heck, we have the bigger gun anyways.

IPF


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## Jihad

You sure that gal isn't our very own ilovef16? 
I seriously respect her actions, good going girl, *KEEP IT UP!*


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## Captain03

roopesh said:


> See Guys, I have a Hindu friend from Kashmir. ZUTSHI family. He told most of the Kashmir Pandits had a problem with and they are trying relocate, Ofcourse we wanted to be at Indian side.
> Several decades passed after Independence. PAKISTAN and INDIA both made this as a national issue. Biggest alligation today is Pakistan Controller Kashmir has terror camps. (U agree its wat projected in media) and the violence in Indian controllerd Kashmir is not low. Kashmir is getting fourign fighters every day to fire against Indian Military.
> I dont think Never its going to be a solution to this. If they love pakistan they have to migrate like your family. Samething goes to otherside.
> BUT PEOPLE TAKING A GUN AGAINST THE GOVT IS UNACCEPTABLE. But I doubt peace is not the idea of Kashmir ppl.
> 
> Why does so much violation happen at pak side kashmir?



unlike my family most kashmiri people will not move
and if i had the choice i wouldnt either
our [kashmiris] fate would have turned out to be like the palestinians if every one of us moved.


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## Captain03

ahmeddsid said:


> Kashmir is a Part of India, and It will Remain so. The time has come to rub off the stupid concept of dividing regions among religions which was left by the British to Divide and Rule!



and india is supposed to be a democracy??
isnt a democracy for the people? why cant u guys let the kashmiris decide like u promised? u know y... CAUSE U KNOW WHAT THEIR ANSWER IS GONNA BE:
ANYTHING BUT INDIA!!!!


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## linkinpark

Scrap article 370 and let people from other parts of India resettle in Kashmir and then we will see what will happen. Just see what China has done with Tibet and Xinjiang, they resettled Hans from Mainland to these places and now the majority became minority. Should follow china in this matter.

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## Captain03

indiapakistanfriendship said:


> Err incase you are in IOK you are free to leave to somewhere else. Every inch in IOK equally belogs to me as every inch of mys state belongs to any Indian citizen. To sum it up Kashmir also belogs to Indian citizens as it belogs to Kashmirs themselevs. You can howl abd growl but that is the ground reality. What the heck, we have the bigger gun anyways.
> 
> IPF



KASHMIR NEVER BELONGED TO INDIA AND NEVER WILL
what part of we kashmiris dont want u in kashmir dont u understand?
bigger gun? ab aey na apni okath par


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## Captain03

roopesh said:


> If KASHMIR has to become independent state it will become. Why pakistan is involved in it. *CAN pakistan declare its controlled kashmir as Independent and get out of there? I dont think so*
> 
> If pakistan has a favour for kashmir ppl why dont thy announce free citizenship to kashmir ppl and assure peace in pakistan. Show your real ISLAMIC face to the world
> 
> See guys kashmir is very stratergically very imp area as it connects russia, china India nad pakistan and rivers. NO country would loose an inch. It directly reflects to whole nation,
> SO no matter who does what KASHMIR will be with India.



there are kashmiris all over pakistan and the only reason pakistan is in kashmir is to free it from india
we have no intrest in the land but its people
jinnah was angered when he found out about the negligence of the maharaja of kashmir
when the maharaja joined india instead of favoring the kashmiri people

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## Omar1984

Captain03 said:


> there are kashmiris all over pakistan and the only reason pakistan is in kashmir is to free it from india
> we have no intrest in the land but its people
> jinnah was angered when he found out about the negligence of the maharaja of kashmir
> when the maharaja joined india instead of favoring the kashmiri people




Very true. Anyone who been to Pakistan knows that there's many Kashmiris living all across Pakistan not only in Azad Kashmir and they are very patriotic Pakistanis.

Watch this woman's story of leaving Kashmir to Lahore when Indian troops invaded Jammu and Kashmir.


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## ahmeddsid

Kashmir is an Integral Part of India and It will Remain so. We dont want to hear about Human Rights from a Country that Installed the Taliban in Afghanistan and Recognized it when the UN didnt!!!! Stop Interfering in Indias Internal Matters!


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## Omar1984

ahmeddsid said:


> Kashmir is an Integral Part of India and It will Remain so. We dont want to hear about Human Rights from a Country that Installed the Taliban in Afghanistan and Recognized it when the UN didnt!!!! Stop Interfering in Indias Internal Matters!



Give it up man..how many times do I have to tell you only India sees Kashmir as part of India, the entire international community sees it as a disputed territory between India and Pakistan, so Kashmir is as much as our business as its yours. 
Even Kashmiri politicians want Pakistan and India to talk about Kashmir, but India puts its hands on its ears and dont want to hear anything about Kashmir instead they've been committing atrocities against the Kashmiri people for more than 61 years.


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## ahmeddsid

Kashmir is more peaceful nowadays than the rest of the Pakistan, for eg a Suicide bomber killed 10 in pakistan right? Well Infact Kashmir is more safe than some parts of India! What does that say??? The Indian Army is doing its job. In the Fight against terrorism, some rights have to be given up. Do u see any attacks in the USA after 9/11???? (stop saying 9/11 is an inside job!) Again the whole world didnt Recognise Taliban, Yet Pakistan did!!! what does that say?


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## Omar1984

ahmeddsid said:


> Kashmir is more peaceful nowadays than the rest of the Pakistan, for eg a Suicide bomber killed 10 in pakistan right? Well Infact Kashmir is more safe than some parts of India! What does that say??? The Indian Army is doing its job. In the Fight against terrorism, some rights have to be given up. Do u see any attacks in the USA after 9/11???? (stop saying 9/11 is an inside job!) Again the whole world didnt Recognise Taliban, Yet Pakistan did!!! what does that say?



This thread is not about Taliban or suicide bombings its about KASHMIR, a 61 year old disputed territory.
If you want to talk about Taliban go to the "war on terror" thread, thats why its there.

As for Kashmir being safe, Kashmiris in general are very peaceful people...I have many Kashmiri friends. Indians, however, are a bunch of hypocrites.
You need as much Indian army in Kashmir as there are Kashmiri people living there to make Kashmir a peaceful place?
Even foreign reporters have seen what kind of horrible crimes Indian army commit on the Kashmiri people.


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## ahmeddsid

Omar1984 said:


> This thread is not about Taliban or suicide bombings its about KASHMIR, a 61 year old disputed territory.
> If you want to talk about Taliban go to the "war on terror" thread, thats why its there.
> 
> As for Kashmir being safe, Kashmiris in general are very peaceful people...I have many Kashmiri friends. Indians, however, are a bunch of hypocrites.
> You need as much Indian army in Kashmir as there are Kashmiri people living there to make Kashmir a peaceful place?
> Even foreign reporters have seen what kind of horrible crimes Indian army commit on the Kashmiri people.


Please, do us all a favour, declare *** as Independent, then India will be ashamed of all its actions and India too will declare its Kashmir as Independent!!! what say? can u do it? Oh sorry, I forgot you are not the ones making the Decisions, its Zardari and sons Corporation I guess. People sitting outside Pakistan and India can make all sort of comments. If Pakistan keeps *** and India keeps its Kashmir then alls solved! But No, you guys want the water sources and strategic importance! Why was a part of Kashmir ceded to china? Please enlighten me, as i want to know the reason!

Well Please dont bring in Human Rights, I will bring in the taliban, because India was not the one supporting and financing all the human rights violations in Afghanistan!


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## afriend

Both people from india and pakistan are no saints when it comes to Kashmir..!!! People want a unified kashmir.. and thats a fact..!!! But i belive pakistan have more control over the political and military affairs in *** rather than IN IHK where it is only controlling the security of the state, why *** is peaceful as many of pakistan friends say is because indians dont send terrorists to blow up the people there. But i believe a Kashmir would be well off under a democratic india, and should be given full autonomy under indian federation, as kashmir is more important to the concept called india than pakistan, and i hope pakistan allows it without any prejudice. If such a solution can be worked out then i guess India PAK can have a relation ship such as India and CANADA, as i believe Kashmir is the only issue between india and pak.

Its being starred out so don't try to get around it. It is Azad Kashmir, also referenced as AK. You could also use PK or Pakistani Controlled Kashmir etc.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

ahmeddsid said:


> Please, do us all a favour, declare *** as Independent, then India will be ashamed of all its actions and India too will declare its Kashmir as Independent!!! what say? can u do it? Oh sorry, I forgot you are not the ones making the Decisions, its Zardari and sons Corporation I guess. People sitting outside Pakistan and India can make all sort of comments. If Pakistan keeps *** and India keeps its Kashmir then alls solved! But No, you guys want the water sources and strategic importance! Why was a part of Kashmir ceded to china? Please enlighten me, as i want to know the reason!
> 
> Well Please dont bring in Human Rights, I will bring in the taliban, because India was not the one supporting and financing all the human rights violations in Afghanistan!



The UNSC resolutions do not allow for 'independence', nor did the plebiscite condition associated with the Instrument of accession, therefore the argument of giving AK independence is incorrect.

The UNSC resolutions call for the referendum in J&K so that the Kashmiris may determine their final status as part of India or Pakistan, resolutions that Indian agreed with and supported.

That is the issue here - not whether India holds elections or makes movies there, but that the UNSc and instrument of accession both declare the territory to be disputed until the Kashmiris can determine what their final status will be.

After final determination of status, the Indians or Pakistanis can impose martial law on the territory if they want, as long as it conforms to their respective constitutions, because it will be sovereign Pakistani or Indian territory.


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## Omar1984

afriend said:


> Why is


Well the girl in the article came from Indian Occupied Kashmir not Pakistan's Azad Kashmir.

Well there has to be a FAIR referendem in all parts of Kashmir, but as I said before no interfernce by India and Pakistan and we have neutral parties monitoring the referendum, and when I mean neutral I mean both India and Pakistan will agree theyre neutral parties.

Kashmir is a disputed territory, no one asks what the Kashmiri people want and they have suffered the most in these past 61 years.
Its time the dispute be solved but I doubt India will ever listen.


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## civfanatic

beetel said:


> This wont explain my questions..
> 
> 
> As far as demonstration is concerned..
> 
> basically it was demonstration against land allottment....
> Here I dont want to say that anti India people are not there few may be there and India should tolerate them there is no other way..Very much Idea India is nothing but Unity in diversity..and we allready moved in that path long ago..These are challenges on that road where we cant fail...and cant look back...



Realy ....This demonstration was held 1 year before amarnath land row . This was welcome rally for Geelani sahab when he came back to kashmir valley after his surgery . Looks we kashmiris are realy smart and started protesting for land 1 year before government order .
You perhaps didnt hear or understand those slogans .Let me clarify 
One slogan was 
"Aaw Aaw ha geelani Aaw ha" which means was geelani has come back . 
other prominent slogan was 
"Syed ali geelani ka paigaam Kashmir banega pakistan "
which means 
Slogan of Geelani is kashmir will become Pakistan .


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## Captain03

ahmeddsid said:


> The Indian Army is doing its job.



massacaring thousands of kashmiris?? if thats their job their doing great!!!



> Again the whole world didnt Recognise Taliban, Yet Pakistan did!!! what does that say?


the taliban was created by the u.s.
what does that say?!?


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## Captain03

ahmeddsid said:


> Kashmir is an Integral Part of India and It will Remain so.



we kashmiris dont want u
get over it


> We dont want to hear about Human Rights from a Country that Installed the Taliban in Afghanistan and Recognized it when the UN didnt!!!!



the taliban was supported and installed by the u.s with some supports by pak
and the un didnt recognize it because of its personal motives



> Stop Interfering in Indias Internal Matters!


as far as i know kashmir is a disputed territory not an indian state so its not an internal matter


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## ahmeddsid

Kashmir is Indian Anyday Anyhow.

Why was Khuda Baksh's posts regarding draconian election laws in (P.O.K) Deleted???? Wasnt it reported by the So called free Press too???? Was it deleted because it said the Government of so called Azad Kashmir is a puppet???


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## beetel

civfanatic said:


> Realy ....This demonstration was held 1 year before amarnath land row . This was welcome rally for Geelani sahab when he came back to kashmir valley after his surgery . Looks we kashmiris are realy smart and started protesting for land 1 year before government order .
> You perhaps didnt hear or understand those slogans .Let me clarify
> One slogan was
> "Aaw Aaw ha geelani Aaw ha" which means was geelani has come back .
> other prominent slogan was
> "Syed ali geelani ka paigaam Kashmir banega pakistan "
> which means
> Slogan of Geelani is kashmir will become Pakistan .


oh sorry
geelani came back from delhi where he has been treated
Why to single out this one..have you seen people yesterday when omar abdullah came back from delhi..There are hundreds of cases if you want to see without glass..


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## beetel

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The UNSC resolutions do not allow for 'independence', nor did the plebiscite condition associated with the Instrument of accession, therefore the argument of giving AK independence is incorrect.
> 
> The UNSC resolutions call for the referendum in J&K so that the Kashmiris may determine their final status as part of India or Pakistan, resolutions that Indian agreed with and supported.
> 
> That is the issue here - not whether India holds elections or makes movies there, but that the UNSc and instrument of accession both declare the territory to be disputed until the Kashmiris can determine what their final status will be.
> 
> After final determination of status, the Indians or Pakistanis can impose martial law on the territory if they want, as long as it conforms to their respective constitutions, because it will be sovereign Pakistani or Indian territory.


UNSC resolution says according to will of kashmiries ..where it mentioned independence is not in will of kashmiries???..According to koffi annan himself it does not hold lot in present
as far as UN is concerned read this
UN Resolution On Kashmir Irrelevant - Kofi Anan The Kashmir
as far as kashmiri will is concerned in 1972 shiek abdullah rejected plebscite option and favoured to join Indian state...not to mention he won the next state election with overwhelming majority...

UN resolution does not says go for war ,send militance,,acquire some part of kashmir,give some part to china
When all these things done without UN now want to remember resolutions!!!!!


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## afriend

afriend said:


> Its being starred out so don't try to get around it. It is Azad Kashmir, also referenced as AK. You could also use PK or Pakistani Controlled Kashmir etc.



Ha.. so much for so called freedom of speech..!!! Well P.O.K is what we call and I.H.K is what you call about our kashmir..!!! So.. its different terms used in each side and why can't you digest that..!!!


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## civfanatic

beetel said:


> oh sorry
> geelani came back from delhi where he has been treated
> Why to single out this one..have you seen people yesterday when omar abdullah came back from delhi..There are hundreds of cases if you want to see without glass..



It was in response to someone who said this demonstration was for amarnath land row . Also dont compare geelani sahabs rally and omar's welcome . omar had no more than thousand people while as gelaani had above 200 thosand .


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## Captain03

afriend said:


> Ha.. so much for so called freedom of speech..!!! Well P.O.K is what we call and I.H.K is what you call about our kashmir..!!! So.. its different terms used in each side and why can't you digest that..!!!



no ihk is what the whole world calls kashmir 
us kashmiris dont want to be a part of india
u cant u digest that!!!


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## Captain03

ahmeddsid said:


> Kashmir is Indian Anyday Anyhow.



us kashmiris dont want to be a part of india
accept it!


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## indiapakistanfriendship

> us kashmiris dont want to be a part of india
> accept it!



Yes Accepted you don't want to be with India. Fell free to move out. Also we feel that the land is ours. Now what do you plan to about that.


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## Captain03

indiapakistanfriendship said:


> Yes Accepted you don't want to be with India. Fell free to move out. Also we feel that the land is ours. Now what do you plan to about that.



we arent palestine and u arent isreal
we will never leave our homeland
do u people even know the meaning of democracy?!?


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## Omar1984

indiapakistanfriendship said:


> Yes Accepted you don't want to be with India. Fell free to move out. Also we feel that the land is ours. Now what do you plan to about that.




Kashmir is land for KASHMIRIS, thats why Kashmiris are called Kashmiris and you Indians are not called Kashmiris. They've been living in their land forever while your forefathers were from bombay or utter pardesh.
The language, religion, culture, people of Kashmir are nothing like the people of India.
The people belonging to Kashmir should decide their own fate not people like you who had no one in your family coming from anywhere near Kashmir.

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## beetel

Omar1984 said:


> Kashmir is land for KASHMIRIS, thats why Kashmiris are called Kashmiris and you Indians are not called Kashmiris. They've been living in their land forever while your forefathers were from bombay or utter pardesh.
> The language, religion, culture, people of Kashmir are nothing like the people of India.
> The people belonging to Kashmir should decide their own fate not people like you who had no one in your family coming from anywhere near Kashmir.



The name kashmir came to existence because of maharshi kashyap..and about religion and culture we have very diversified culture through out history and at present also..We dont want to loose it for sake of some religious fundamentalists..
If a kashmiri is finding it is difficult to make a living in his place then he is free to move anywhere in India and it is constitusionally binding to all the citizens of India..
In other words "every Indian has equal rights in my state as I have equal rights in remaining states"


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## dabloo

Captain03 said:


> we arent palestine and u arent isreal
> we will never leave our homeland
> do u people even know the meaning of democracy?!?



Dear,

You speak like Hurriyat Conference, the bastards, who don'y haven even guts to face the election, because they knew "BAND MUTHI LAKH KI, KHUL GAYI TO KHAK KI".

If they really care for Kashmiris, should take part in election, win and then talk on behalf of Kashmiris.

Dabloo


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## Captain03

dabloo said:


> Dear,
> 
> You speak like Hurriyat Conference, the bastards, who don'y haven even guts to face the election, because they knew "BAND MUTHI LAKH KI, KHUL GAYI TO KHAK KI".
> 
> If they really care for Kashmiris, should take part in election, win and then talk on behalf of Kashmiris.
> 
> Dabloo



y participate in a government that doesnt care about your people
y participate in an election that is already fixed
review kashmir's true history b4 u call anyone a bastard


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## UnitedPak

We have Obama and Omar Abdullah to thank for throwing the international spot light on Kashmir, and recent threats from Indian media on what Obama can and cant do will sure tempt this issue up again.
The concept of democracy will surely win the support of the world sooner or later. Add a few UN resolutions, Nehru promises to the Kashmiris, Pakistani backing so we can focus whole heartedly on the WOT, Chinese backing for UN resolutions, and some diplomatic stunts, and India will be struggling to explain its position as a lover of democracy.
Heck, might even throw in a few cases of Junadagh hypocrisy for good measure.

I am sure ground breaking Indian suggestions of 'doing nothing', and 'doing more nothing' will be ignored like they rightfully deserve to.


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## Vinod2070

Once the terrorists have been taken care, there is really nothing to do.

Kashmir will develop like any other state of India.

Obama is not going to get you what war and terror for decades couldn't. Don't say I didn't tell you when the disappointment comes.

He will be doing a surge in Afghanistan and making sure that Pakistan does what it is meant to do.


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## dabloo

Captain03 said:


> y participate in a government that doesnt care about your people
> y participate in an election that is already fixed
> review kashmir's true history b4 u call anyone a bastard



Yeh my dear friend, sitting on my laptop, I can also say politician do nothing, government officers don't work, I can say what i like., but it doesn't make sense until and unless you are part of it, how would you know how the system works.

And election in Jammu & KAshmir are held under International observer, till date no country has said the election were rigged.

One terrorism stops in Kashmir, everthing will be in place. We face much more severe terrorism in Punjab and we get over it and Insaallah we will get over terrorism in Kashmir also.

Why does it hurt you when I called Hurriyat Leaders BASTARDS, they are.

Also I will like to post your signature again "Speak The Truth Then Let The Dogs Bark"

Regards
Dabloo

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## Captain03

Vinod2070 said:


> Once the terrorists have been taken care, there is really nothing to do.
> 
> Kashmir will develop like any other state of India.
> 
> Obama is not going to get you what war and terror for decades couldn't. Don't say I didn't tell you when the disappointment comes.
> 
> He will be doing a surge in Afghanistan and making sure that Pakistan does what it is meant to do.



plz note that kashmir is not a state of india

and pakistan has done more than other other country in the wot including usa


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## Vinod2070

Captain03 said:


> plz note that kashmir is not a state of india
> 
> and pakistan has done more than other other country in the wot including usa



States and territories
Administrative divisions of India, including 28 states and 7 union territories.

States:

1. Andhra Pradesh
2. Arunachal Pradesh
3. Assam
4. Bihar
5. Chhattisgarh
6. Goa
7. Gujarat



8. Haryana
9. Himachal Pradesh
*10. Jammu and Kashmir*
11. Jharkhand
12. Karnataka
13. Kerala
14. Madhya Pradesh



15. Maharashtra
16. Manipur
17. Meghalaya
18. Mizoram
19. Nagaland
20. Orissa
21. Punjab



22. Rajasthan
23. Sikkim
24. Tamil Nadu
25. Tripura
26. Uttar Pradesh
27. Uttarakhand
28. West Bengal

Union Territories:

1. Andaman and Nicobar Islands
2. Chandigarh
3. Dadra and Nagar Haveli
4. Daman and Diu
5. Lakshadweep
6. National Capital Territory of Delhi
7. Puducherry

List of state and union territory capitals in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Captain03

dabloo said:


> Yeh my dear friend, sitting on my laptop, I can also say politician do nothing, government officers don't work, I can say what i like., but it doesn't make sense until and unless you are part of it, how would you know how the system works.
> 
> And election in Jammu & KAshmir are held under International observer, till date no country has said the election were rigged.
> 
> One terrorism stops in Kashmir, everthing will be in place. We face much more severe terrorism in Punjab and we get over it and Insaallah we will get over terrorism in Kashmir also.
> 
> Why does it hurt you when I called Hurriyat Leaders BASTARDS, they are.
> 
> Also I will like to post your signature again "Speak The Truth Then Let The Dogs Bark"
> 
> Regards
> Dabloo



if the system worked there would never been a rebellion
if the system worked more voters would have shown up
if the system worked there wouldnt be protests
if the system worked there would be separatists
and terrrorist are made not born
today there are hundreds of palesntinian terrorists being made because of the isreali strikes
today and for the last 60 years there have been terrorists made from the massacres of the indian troops and the injustice of the indian government
and it doesnt hurt me when u call them bastards but in order to judge or label someone u have to understand their point of view and what they stand for and how they support their ideas.
there is a major flaw in ur thinking
i recommend you fix it b4 u embarrass yourself again


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## Captain03

Vinod2070 said:


> States and territories
> Administrative divisions of India, including 28 states and 7 union territories.
> 
> States:
> 
> 1. Andhra Pradesh
> 2. Arunachal Pradesh
> 3. Assam
> 4. Bihar
> 5. Chhattisgarh
> 6. Goa
> 7. Gujarat
> 
> 
> 
> 8. Haryana
> 9. Himachal Pradesh
> *10. Jammu and Kashmir*
> 11. Jharkhand
> 12. Karnataka
> 13. Kerala
> 14. Madhya Pradesh
> 
> 
> 
> 15. Maharashtra
> 16. Manipur
> 17. Meghalaya
> 18. Mizoram
> 19. Nagaland
> 20. Orissa
> 21. Punjab
> 
> 
> 
> 22. Rajasthan
> 23. Sikkim
> 24. Tamil Nadu
> 25. Tripura
> 26. Uttar Pradesh
> 27. Uttarakhand
> 28. West Bengal
> 
> Union Territories:
> 
> 1. Andaman and Nicobar Islands
> 2. Chandigarh
> 3. Dadra and Nagar Haveli
> 4. Daman and Diu
> 5. Lakshadweep
> 6. National Capital Territory of Delhi
> 7. Puducherry
> 
> List of state and union territory capitals in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



it makes no sense of india doing that because the world including india acknowledges that ihk is a disputed territory.
i guess india believes strongly in the thinking that if u tell a lie a million times it finally becomes the truth
but newsflash to india it hasn't changed for 60 years and it wont change in the future.


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## Vinod2070

Captain03 said:


> it makes no sense of india doing that because *the world including india acknowledges that ihk is a disputed territory.*
> i guess india believes strongly in the thinking that if u tell a lie a million times it finally becomes the truth
> but newsflash to india it hasn't changed for 60 years and it wont change in the future.



That is factually incorrect. See any map of the world published in any country and the Indian part of Kashmir which legitimately acceded to India is shown as such.

Frankly no one cares about this pet peeve of some people. Even Pakistani establishment has well understood their limitations in this matter.

You can't get Kashmir. With force or without. With terror or without. All you can do is make the life of the average Kashmiri tougher by sending the terrorists. Even this has it's limits and has almost run out it's course.


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## Captain03

Vinod2070 said:


> That is factually incorrect. See any map of the world published in any country and the Indian part of Kashmir which legitimately acceded to India is shown as such.
> 
> Frankly no one cares about this pet peeve of some people. Even Pakistani establishment has well understood their limitations in this matter.
> 
> You can't get Kashmir. With force or without. With terror or without. All you can do is make the life of the average Kashmiri tougher by sending the terrorists. Even this has it's limits and has almost run out it's course.



it doesnt really matter what the maps of the world state
as per documents kashmir is a disputed territory
and when u make some land urs without the people's choice and care its called an invasion not acceding
junagadh was acceding since the people were hindu and didnt wanted to be with pakistan but kashmir was purely an invasion on ur part
but as always india has double standards on things
as per kashmir matter goes
india will eventually have to let go of kashmir and if it doesn't it will be taken away from them
its as simple as that
us kashmiris dont want to be with you and there is nothing in the world that can change that.


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## roopesh

UnitedPak said:


> Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris and no one else. Remember this the next time you mock Kashmiris right to their own lands.




How many ppl in Azad Kashmir speak Kashmiri language? Is pakistan ready for the survey and kick all the non-kashmiri speaking ppl our of the comple kashmir before we start the election.
Samething goes to Indain kashmir too. Only kashmiri known ppl will participate in the voting...


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## Omar1984

roopesh said:


> How many ppl in Azad Kashmir speak Kashmiri language? Is pakistan ready for the survey and kick all the non-kashmiri speaking ppl our of the comple kashmir before we start the election.
> Samething goes to Indain kashmir too. Only kashmiri known ppl will participate in the voting...



hahahah then you're going to have to kick a whole lot of people out from Azad Kashmir, but no one can do that only Isrealis kick out people from their homes.

Ethnic Groups
Main article: Ethnic groups of Azad Kashmir
Azad Kashmir is predominantly Muslim. The majority of the population is culturally, linguistically, and ethnically related to the people of northern Punjab. The article Ethnic groups of Azad Kashmir gives a breakdown of all the major tribes in the state.


Languages
Urdu is the official language of Azad Kashmir but is spoken by only a minority of people. The dominant language spoken in the state is Pahari, which is very similar to Pothwari and Hindko.

Azad Kashmir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## roopesh

Omar1984 said:


> hahahah then you're going to have to kick a whole lot of people out from Azad Kashmir, but no one can do that only Isrealis kick out people from their homes.



Omar they are all immigrants and dont have voting rights....lol...hey today we have fun at orrissa temple thread man..! post couple there too


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## Omar1984

roopesh said:


> Omar they are all immigrants and dont have voting rights....lol...hey today we have fun at orrissa temple thread man..! post couple there too



They're not immigrants...Gujjars (Punjabis) have been living side by side with Kashmiris for thousands of years.

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## UnitedPak

roopesh said:


> How many ppl in Azad Kashmir speak Kashmiri language? Is pakistan ready for the survey and kick all the non-kashmiri speaking ppl our of the comple kashmir before we start the election.
> Samething goes to Indain kashmir too. Only kashmiri known ppl will participate in the voting...



They are not immigrants. Those parts of Kashmir have always been Punjabi (Pahari) speaking. Just like Ladakh and Jammu are not Kashmiri speaking areas.

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## dabong1

roopesh said:


> How many ppl in Azad Kashmir speak Kashmiri language? Is pakistan ready for the survey and kick all the non-kashmiri speaking ppl our of the comple kashmir before we start the election.
> Samething goes to Indain kashmir too. Only kashmiri known ppl will participate in the voting...



Maybe we can use your example on india also....those that speak hindi must be indian and the ones that cant speak hindi must not be indians.
Your argument is flawed......my family came from the indian side of kashmir but after a couple of generations they now speak pahari-urdu-goujri english.....does that make us less kashmiri?

Plus the only people that can vote are people that where kashmiri from day one....people that have moved to AJK from punjab ect are not allowed to vote.

Please get you facts right before jumping to indian made conclusions.


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## dabong1

Omar1984 said:


> They're not immigrants...Gujjars (Punjabis) have been living side by side with Kashmiris for thousands of years.



roopesh......What about the Bakkarwals,will they be allowed to vote?
YouTube - Bakkarwals (part-1of4)


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## civfanatic

roopesh said:


> How many ppl in Azad Kashmir speak Kashmiri language? Is pakistan ready for the survey and kick all the non-kashmiri speaking ppl our of the comple kashmir before we start the election.
> Samething goes to Indain kashmir too. Only kashmiri known ppl will participate in the voting...



Azad Kashmir always had majority pahari speaking people .They have been living there for centuries. It is their own land. How can Pakistan kick them out. Going by your logic then India should kick out dogri speaking people from Jammu (they dont speak Kashmiri) and laddakhis from leh .

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## SSGPA1

STAFF WRITER 17:43 HRS IST
Srinagar, Aug 14 (PTI) Police lobbed teargas shells and used batons to disperse a group of youths who set ablaze a tricolour and hoisted Pakistani flags at a few places and raised slogans in favour of the neighbouring country on the occasion of its Independence Day today.

Securitymen swung into action after over 200 youth took to the streets outside Jamia Masjid in downtown Srinagar shortly after Friday prayers, burst crackers and clashed with police personnel, official sources said.

Chanting "Long live Pakistan" and "We want freedom", the youth pelted stones in retaliation to the teargas and cane charge triggering clashes, they said.

As the situation became tense, security reinforcements were rushed to the spot to check violence from spreading to other areas.

fullstory

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## SSGPA1

For how long the educated, intelligent and open minded Indians are going to deny facts??

Please open your eyes and see what Kashimiris want.


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## Spring Onion

*Pak flags hoisted in IHK; Hurriyat leader arrested *

Updated at: 1725 PST, Friday, August 14, 2009
SRINAGAR: *The green flags of Pakistan were hoisted in various areas of Indian held Kashmir on the Independence Day of Pakistan; while, Hurriyat leader Yasmeen Raja has been arrested.*
According to Kashmir Media Service, *people took to streets in various Sri Nagar areas including Habba Kadal, Raj Bagh and Khanqa-e-Mualla and raised slogans of &#8216;Pakistan Zindabad&#8217;, &#8216;Jeway Jeway Pakistan&#8217; and &#8216;Hum kia chahtey hein&#8212;azaadi&#8217; with Pak flags raised in the air.*

*Kashmiri youth resorted to fireworks in happiness on the Independence Day of Pakistan.*

Meantime, Hurriyat leader Yasmeen Raja was arrested when she attended a ceremony held to celebrate the national day of Pakistan. Raja also hoisted the national flag of Pakistan on her office.

*Indian police arrested some other women as well.

Various separatist organisations on Thursday congratulated people of Pakistan on its 62nd independence day and also appealed masses to observe complete shutdown on August 15.*

Congratulating people of Pakistan, Hurriyat Conference (M) in a statement said, &#8220;We all pray for the peace and stability of Pakistan.&#8221;
Hurriyat (M) appealed masses to observe complete shutdown on August 15 against what it termed continued Indian occupation in Kashmir. 

Tehreek-I-Hurriyat Jammu Kashmir spokesperson in a statement said: &#8220;Pakistan is the result of sacrifices of lakhs of people. Pakistan is the centre of hopes of Muslims throughout the world. Every Muslim is concerned about the safety and security of this great nation.&#8221;

The spokesperson further said: &#8220;Pakistan is battling against odds. Muslims around the globe are praying for peace and stability of the nation.&#8221;

THJK has appealed masses to observe August 14 as prayer day and August 15 as black day. 

The party also condemned the fudging of DNA samples of Shopian rape and murder victims.

&#8220;It is a clear indication that the government is continuously trying to hide the real culprits and just lengthening the case by involving CBI,&#8221; the statement read.

In a separate statement, Muslim League said: &#8220;Pakistan has always been our friend and helped us at all crucial junctures. The support of Pakistan is still necessary and we congratulate the nation for its 62nd independence anniversary.&#8221; 

Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (R) chief organizer Farooq Ahmad Dar alias Bitta Karate said: &#8220;We express greetings to people and government of Pakistan and pray for peace and stability and integrity of the nation. We wish for a strong and vibrant Pakistan backing Kashmiris in their just struggle for independence and right of self-determination. We hope that Pakistan will continue with its moral, diplomatic and political support to Kashmiris.&#8221; 

Dar also appealed masses to observe August 15 as &#8216;black day&#8217; and observe complete shutdown.

Meanwhile, JKLF (R) has strongly condemned the fudging of DNA samples in Shopian case.

Jammu Kashmir Salvation Movement also congratulated Pakistan and appealed masses to observe strike on 15 August. 

Tehreek Wahadt-e-Islami has also called up for making Youm-e-Pakistan a success. 
Wahadat spokesman said, &#8220;The Youm-e-Pakistan would be observed across Kashmir as Youm-e-Dua for Pakistan.&#8221; 

Pak flags hoisted in IHK; Hurriyat leader arrested - GEO.tv


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## arihant

So, what is different. There are lot of Anti-Indian, lot of Anti-US. So what. Are you crazy with this. 

We are always open minded, those who want to burn the flag let them burn. Burning doesn't hit our hearts.


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## asq

Atrocities in kashmir must stop, freedom of assembly and of expression must not be abused by India, amnesty international must be allowed to enter Kashmir to assess the false claims by India about peace in Kashmir. 

India must allow people of kashmir the right of self determination, if not than we the Pakistanis on this forum should boycott all Indian who support the occupation of Kashmir and stop discussions till they agree to support the choices of kashmiris about Kashmir.

All Pakistanis, if you agree sign yes for me. remember this is a non violent way of us telling Indians to put their money where their mouth is. And that is to allow Democratic and God given right to all Kashmiris to choose their destiny freely or stop claiming to be the biggest Democracy of the world.


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## gubbi

SSGPA1 said:


> For how long the educated, intelligent and open minded Indians are going to deny facts??
> 
> Please open your eyes and see what Kashimiris want.



In all honesty - its a hard pill to swallow for us Indians - Kashmiris want FREEDOM! Not India, surely not Pakistan, but total Freedom! I know its hard for some members to digest, but that's the (ugly)truth!
I really find it hard to reconcile Kashmiri Pundits and Kashmiri Sufi Islam existing peacefully within Pakistan society, as of today. (not a flame bait, trolls refrain please)
And trust me, I know!


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## sensenreason

I feel sorry for the folks who are burning flags of India. It seems not only an 'old fashioned' way of protest but kind of shows no progress since late 80s despite the events of last 20 years.They were doing the same at that time...

The reason could be the main people of the movement are the same.If I was one of them, I would want to join China and not Pakistan. Joining Pakistan would not uplift them except for a short honeymoon period when they would bask in their new found brethen's ethnic and religious similarities with themselves.Pakistan has almost imploded due to its support to the Kashmiri cause.Eventually, economics matter more than anything else...

This is what I admire about China, they have focussed on building their strength before they go head up with the US...The lesson being, the way to win against a bigger opponent lies in building your strength and not dissipating it in useless protests and dharnas.

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## Spring Onion

arihant said:


> Double Standards.
> 
> When Indian Muslim burnt Pak Flags, they called it "Protection from India" - link
> 
> Some says Indian Media never show truth about Kashmir. - Indian Link on this story
> 
> Baloch burnt Pakistan Flag - Link




*No double Standard. If the comparison was between India and Pakistan then we would have happily accepted your link about BLA terrorist burning Pak flag Vs Indian Muslims burning Indian flag.

But as a matter of fact. In case of Held Kashmir its not Indian Muslims rather its KASHMIRIS.

Kashmiris are Not Indians nor Kashmir is part of India.*

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## Awesome

gubbi said:


> In all honesty - its a hard pill to swallow for us Indians - Kashmiris want FREEDOM! Not India, surely not Pakistan, but total Freedom! I know its hard for some members to digest, but that's the (ugly)truth!
> I really find it hard to reconcile Kashmiri Pundits and Kashmiri Sufi Islam existing peacefully within Pakistan society, as of today. (not a flame bait, trolls refrain please)
> And trust me, I know!


freedom is fine by me as long as thats what Kashmiris want.


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## SSGPA1

MilesTogo said:


> I would say, let us also see what Balochis want...



Less then 2 yrs ago Balochis paticipated in the most free elections in the history of Pakistan and voted for a party supporting Pakistan. 

Can you say the same about the recent election drama in IHK?

Yes, there are elements who are looking for independence but fact is that majority rules and majority of Balochs support Pakistan.

*One can't compare Indian Held Kashmir with Balochistan because in IHK, majority either want independence or a merger with Pakistan.*


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## sensenreason

SSGPA1 said:


> Less then 2 yrs ago Balochis paticipated in the most free elections in the history of Pakistan and voted for a party supporting Pakistan.
> 
> Can you say the same about the recent election drama in IHK?
> 
> Yes, there are elements who are looking for independence but fact is that majority rules and majority of Balochs support Pakistan.
> 
> *One can't compare Indian Held Kashmir with Balochistan because in IHK, majority either want independence or a merger with Pakistan.*



....this is what you claim!!! How do you know that for a fact?


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## SSGPA1

sensenreason said:


> The reason could be the main people of the movement are the same.If I was one of them, I would want to join China and not Pakistan. Joining Pakistan would not uplift them except for a short honeymoon period when they would bask in their new found brethen's ethnic and religious similarities with themselves.Pakistan has almost imploded due to its support to the Kashmiri cause.Eventually, economics matter more than anything else...



In that case you should let fellow Indians know that India is standing in the way of a wake up call for Kashmiris.

Let the Kashmiris learn that lesson, atleast this time it will be their own choice.


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## Peshwa

What &#37; of a billion is 200 peeps? Hmm......thats what we call chicken feed....

Besides I hardly think burning the tri color and chanting anti-India slogans will get them anywhere......3 wars, armed militancy, attacks on civilians and government institutions could not "free" Kashmir.....what makes anyone think this will do the trick?


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## Spring Onion

sensenreason said:


> ....this is what you claim!!! How do you know that for a fact?



The presence of thousands of Indian forces with latest equipment, the extra judicial killings of Kashmiris, the raps of Kashmiri women, the killing of Kashmiri youth in fake encounters. and so on.

After so many decades still India failed to curb voices of freedom rather its not freedom its strugle for getting back their own land which was occupied by India.

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## Khajur

SSGPA1 said:


> For how long the educated, intelligent and open minded Indians are going to deny facts??
> 
> Please open your eyes and see what Kashimiris want.



Facts??
There are several facts and several versions of of same facts .

Yes,we can see what kashmiris of Srinagar wants and also hindu Kashmiri pandits who are driven out of Srinagars wants....what ppl living in jammu and Ladakh want.

We know they want freedom to start a new country .So what??

Some sikhs in indian punjab want free khalistan.So what??

Some Assamese want free Assam.So what??

Now those who dont know india is already a free country with every citizens free to live the way they want to.I dont think u get more freedom in a new separate country.


But just because u say 'Allah hu Akbar'and wear turban or u look mongolid that doesnt give the right to demand a separate country.

If india start paying attention to every trivial voice of separatism and making new countries then it would break in to 400 hundred pieces.

And Those banana republics will probably be ruled by some stooge dictator with US or chinese oversight making them hardly free and barely a country.

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## SSGPA1

sensenreason said:


> ....this is what you claim!!! How do you know that for a fact?



I can ask the same ... how do you know that Kashmiris want to be a part fo India??

If Kashmiris were in support of India then trust nme this issue would have been killed by the West a long time ago. 

US envoys and EU leaders all talk about this as a dispute because they know this is a dispute and they understand the support Pakistan has in teh IHK.

Do you see similar demand from Kashmiris in Pakistan??


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## SSGPA1

gubbi said:


> I really find it hard to reconcile Kashmiri Pundits and Kashmiri Sufi Islam existing peacefully within Pakistan society, as of today. (not a flame bait, trolls refrain please)
> And trust me, I know!



Musharraf regime offered 7 different options to teh Indian govt. keeping all issues in mind but Indian leadership couldn't react fast enough and Musharraf faced political issues at home.

Solution for Kashmir can't be one sided and it will certainly not be a win win for anyone BUT it will be a solution which will bring peace to this region.


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## SSGPA1

Peshwa said:


> What &#37; of a billion is 200 peeps? Hmm......thats what we call chicken feed....
> 
> Besides I hardly think burning the tri color and chanting anti-India slogans will get them anywhere......3 wars, armed militancy, attacks on civilians and government institutions could not "free" Kashmir.....what makes anyone think this will do the trick?



Good to see that eductaion didn't do much demage to your brain 

200 human are not part of the billion population. Pls show some decency and avoid arrogance in your posts as your arrogance and rude behaviour will not take India anywhere either.

*This is very important becasue at this point violence is very low in Kashmir ... this is the face of Kashmiris who were born and brought up in Srinagar and that didn't change there point of view either.*


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## Peshwa

Jana said:


> The presence of thousands of Indian forces with latest equipment, the extra judicial killings of Kashmiris, the raps of Kashmiri women, the killing of Kashmiri youth in fake encounters. and so on.
> 
> After so many decades still India failed to curb voices of freedom rather its not freedom its strugle for getting back their own land which was occupied by India.



Violence breeds violence.....Had there been no militancy sponsored by Pakistan in Kashmir, we probably would not need to spend our hard earned money on maintaining military in Kashmir......Why was the face of Kashmir so different before the 80's? 
Its very easy to point fingers.......

And about the killings....Im quite sure some there are some atrocities being committed by some "indisciplined" members of the armed force.....happens everywhere....please read about the occupation/seige of Berlin post WWII.....
Im not going to justify it.....
But frankly there is an insurgency.....there will be blood and unless we root out all militants....this will continue......The way Pakistan and its citizens are fighting in NWFP to save their people and their land.....
Indians will continue to protect Kashmir's, kashmiri's and their soverignty......


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## HAIDER

Kashmiri people hold a flag of Pakistan and shout freedom slogans during celebrations marking Pakistani Independence Day in Srinagar. -AP Photo

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## SSGPA1

Khajur said:


> Yes,we can see what kashmiris of Srinagar wants and also hindu Kashmiri pandits who are driven out of Srinagars wants....what ppl living in jammu and Ladakh want.
> 
> We know they want freedom to start a new country .So what??
> 
> Some sikhs in indian punjab want free khalistan.So what??
> 
> Some Assamese want free Assam.So what??



There is a difference between 'some' and 'most' - Do you honestly believe that only *SOME* Kashmiris want to part with India?

There are options on the table which will adress the concerns of Kashmiri Pandits as well *BUT* Indian people need to support the Indian govt. for any resolution and that starts with people like you.


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## Peshwa

SSGPA1 said:


> Good to see that eductaion didn't do much demage to your brain
> 
> 200 human are not part of the billion population. Pls show some decency and avoid arrogance in your posts as your arrogance and rude behaviour will not take India anywhere either.
> 
> *This is very important becasue at this point violence is very low in Kashmir ... this is the face of Kashmiris who were born and brought up in Srinagar and that didn't change there point of view either.*



I agree with you here.....In retrospect, it might have been rude of me to call these people "chicken feed".....but frankly my aim was to say that 200 people do not represent the entire Kashmir.....Many members here try to post these reports to almost prove that every Kashmiri wants freedom....and that I dont agree with.....

People who dont respect their motherland dont deserve my respect.....


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## SSGPA1

Peshwa said:


> But frankly there is an insurgency.....there will be blood and unless we root out all militants....this will continue......The way Pakistan and its citizens are fighting in NWFP to save their people and their land.....
> Indians will continue to protect Kashmir's, kashmiri's and their soverignty......



That insurgency is at the lowest level and yet you have a hisgh support for Pakistan. Indians need to see this with oopen eyes and understand this with open minds.


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## Peshwa

SSGPA1 said:


> That insurgency is at the lowest level and yet you have a hisgh support for Pakistan. Indians need to see this with oopen eyes and understand this with open minds.



Sir let me be as blunt as I can be....with no disrespect to anyone.....

Kashmir's land belongs to India.....you cant claim something that was never your's.......similarly....Kashmiri's have every right over Kashmir....but so does the rest of India and Indians......
I definitely believe that India needs to do more to keep Kashmir safe and win the confidence of Kashmiri's....but thats about it....
Being anti-India and chanting slogans is just going to make these people the outliers among the billion strong India.....

My suggestion to these outliers would be to quit the "freedom" movement and start a movement to restore Kashmir pre-insurgency with development, infrastructure, education, jobs etc for the Kashmiri's.......Isnt that what every human wants?

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## Khajur

SSGPA1 said:


> There is a difference between 'some' and 'most' - Do you honestly believe that only *SOME* Kashmiris want to part with India?
> 
> There are options on the table which will adress the concerns of Kashmiri Pandits as well *BUT* Indian people need to support the Indian govt. for any resolution and that starts with people like you.



"There are options on the table which will adress the concerns of Kashmiri Pandits as well "

What options are u talking about??

Do u think its easy carve a new nation out of exitsting boundries??

Last time while Bangladesh was created few milions lost their lives.
Before that several more millions of lives were lost while india and pakistan separeated.

To be very blunt and honest,if there going to a separate kashmir then pakistan would have to take few crore indian muslim refugees along with as its communal repercussions would be too dangerous to pathom...we already have the examples of earlier partitions.
Can pakistna handle that??No not at all.

So lets stop living on day dreams whose bigger multitude side effects would be too hard to accept. So i wont pay much attention...
If some kashmiri youth spend time chanting anti india slogan at the behest of his leader after friday prayers.

*I think pakistan better stop seeing the future of its country on redrawn borders as there is no future in it.*


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## advaita

SSGPA1 said:


> STAFF WRITER 17:43 HRS IST
> Srinagar, Aug 14 (PTI) Police lobbed teargas shells and used batons to disperse a group of youths who set ablaze a tricolour and hoisted Pakistani flags at a few places and raised slogans in favour of the neighbouring country on the occasion of its Independence Day today.
> 
> Securitymen swung into action after over 200 youth took to the streets outside Jamia Masjid in downtown Srinagar shortly after Friday prayers, burst crackers and clashed with police personnel, official sources said.
> 
> Chanting "Long live Pakistan" and "We want freedom", the youth pelted stones in retaliation to the teargas and cane charge triggering clashes, they said.
> 
> As the situation became tense, security reinforcements were rushed to the spot to check violence from spreading to other areas.
> 
> fullstory



Look these guys are Pakistanis in heart illegally living in India.
If 5 lac + muslims went to Pakistan in 1947 and and equal number of Indians came from there why dont these guys move over to rawalpindi etc....

After all Sikh and Hindus are still coming over from Pakistan. This option should be there for those kashmir muslims that want to burn the flag and boycott the election and terrorise the majority muslims in the valley to do the same.

See how tolerant we are.....


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## SSGPA1

Peshwa said:


> My suggestion to these outliers would be to quit the "freedom" movement and start a movement to restore Kashmir pre-insurgency with development, infrastructure, education, jobs etc for the Kashmiri's.......Isnt that what every human wants?



I respct your emotions and love for your country but fact of the matter is that *MOST* Kashimiris don't want anything to do with India.

Don't think from an Indian point of view byut think from a Kashmiri point of view ... Kashmiris have been struggling since the last 63 years and if Kashmir issue is not resolved then there will be another war.

Why go to war when this issue can be resolved peacefully?


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## s90

advaita said:


> Look these guys are Pakistanis in heart illegally living in India.
> If 5 lac + muslims went to Pakistan in 1947 and and equal number of Indians came from there why dont these guys move over to rawalpindi etc....
> 
> After all Sikh and Hindus are still coming over from Pakistan. This option should be there for those kashmir muslims that want to burn the flag and boycott the election and terrorise the majority muslims in the valley to do the same.
> 
> See how tolerant we are.....



Always point towards Pakistan,i aint surprised.These boys are your citizens.


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## advaita

Khajur said:


> "There are options on the table which will adress the concerns of Kashmiri Pandits as well "
> 
> What options are u talking about??
> 
> Do u think its easy carve a new nation out of exitsting boundries??
> 
> Last time while Bangladesh was created few milions lost their lives.
> Before that several more millions of lives were lost while india and pakistan separeated.
> 
> To be very blunt and honest,if there going to a separate kashmir then pakistan would have to take few crore indian muslim refugees along with as its communal repercussions would be too dangerous to pathom...we already have the examples of earlier partitions.
> Can pakistna handle that??No not at all.
> 
> So lets stop living on day dreams whose bigger multitude side effects would be too hard to accept. So i wont pay much attention...
> If some kashmiri youth spend time chanting anti india slogan at the behest of his leader after friday prayers.
> 
> *I think pakistan better stop seeing the future of its country on redrawn borders as there is no future in it.*



Khajur, you dont have to be defensive. The question of new partition does not arises because these guys have no case (they didnt have any even the last time round but they had enough venom then and we were week. but now situation is different ..........)


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## advaita

s90 said:


> Always point towards Pakistan,i aint surprised.These boys are your citizens.



Read again.
I said in there heart they are pakistani that is why they burn Indian flag and hoist Pakistani flag.

Quite OK there are Indians by heart coming over to India still.

Jazbe se Desh aur Deshwasi bante hain residential address to change ho sakta hai ......... after all Mr. Jinnah ka bhi yahi khayal tha.


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## advaita

SSGPA1 said:


> I respct your emotions and love for your country but fact of the matter is that *MOST* Kashimiris don't want anything to do with India.
> 
> Don't think from an Indian point of view byut think from a Kashmiri point of view ... Kashmiris have been struggling since the last 63 years and if Kashmir issue is not resolved then there will be another war.
> 
> Why go to war when this issue can be resolved peacefully?



OK then every single one of these *MOST* kashmiris can move over to Pakistan. That would also bring about India Pak peace.......


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## TOPGUN

These people have clearly spoken out from there hearts to bad there voices never get heard!

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## advaita

SSGPA1 said:


> Good to see that eductaion didn't do much demage to your brain
> 
> 200 human are not part of the billion population. Pls show some decency and avoid arrogance in your posts as your arrogance and rude behaviour will not take India anywhere either.
> 
> *This is very important becasue at this point violence is very low in Kashmir ... this is the face of Kashmiris who were born and brought up in Srinagar and that didn't change there point of view either.*



Arre to birader lete jao in sabhi ko....... who is stoping anybody.

So many Indians take up US citizenship every year because US is an advanced country unlike India. Some can also take up Pakistani citizenship.

Actually you guys just want to spite India and these flag burners are just your guys (illegally staying here in India just like Kasab).

See this is the real democracy. Change of residential address is ok with us anyday.


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## SSGPA1

Khajur said:


> What options are u talking about??



One option is to have regions identified for Pundits and others. There are other options as well which range from non-military zones to joint control.



Khajur said:


> Do u think its easy carve a new nation out of exitsting boundries??
> 
> Last time while Bangladesh was created few milions lost their lives.
> Before that several more millions of lives were lost while india and pakistan separeated.



Paksitan was at fault and paid price for it just like India was at fault in 1948 and India is still ignoring the realities on the ground. This time on both side of the border, will be Kashmiri Muslims so chances of riots of such magnitude are very low.



Khajur said:


> To be very blunt and honest,if there going to a separate kashmir then pakistan would have to take few crore indian muslim refugees along with as its communal repercussions would be too dangerous to pathom...we already have the examples of earlier partitions.
> Can pakistna handle that??No not at all..



Why do you think communal riots would happen in India? Muslims in India will and should remain in India. We are discussing LOC and not the international borders.



Khajur said:


> If some kashmiri youth spend time chanting anti india slogan at the behest of his leader after friday prayers.



This is the attitude from an educated Indian which is the hurdle in the resolution of Kashmir issue. Indian politicians privately show desire to resolevd the issue but they fail to act like leaders and guide people like yourself to a peaceful solution.

*Please check media headlines tomorrow for the black day which Kashmiris will observe in the Indian Held Kashmir. I hope that one day you will be able to see the truth.*


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## SSGPA1

advaita said:


> OK then every single one of these *MOST* kashmiris can move over to Pakistan. That would also bring about India Pak peace.......



No because Kashmir is the land for Kashmiris. This may be a hindu extremist's position but not a position of majority of educated Indians.

How did you feel when Shiv Sena asked North Indians to go back to North India from Maharashtra?


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## advaita

SSGPA1 said:


> One option is to have regions identified for Pundits and others. There are other options as well which range from non-military zones to joint control.
> 
> 
> 
> Paksitan was at fault and paid price for it just like India was at fault in 1948 and India is still ignoring the realities on the ground. This time on both side of the border, will be Kashmiri Muslims so chances of riots of such magnitude are very low.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you think communal riots would happen in India? Muslims in India will and should remain in India. We are discussing LOC and not the international borders.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the attitude from an educated Indian which is the hurdle in the resolution of Kashmir issue. Indian politicians privately show desire to resolevd the issue but they fail to act like leaders and guide people like yourself to a peaceful solution.
> 
> *Please check media headlines tomorrow for the black day which Kashmiris will observe in the Indian Held Kashmir. I hope that one day you will be able to see the truth.*



I still believe moving over is a better option after all if an Indian by heart comes over to India from Pakistan we dont ask for his property nor do we ask for partitioin of Pakistan on this basis.


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## SSGPA1

advaita said:


> Arre to birader lete jao in sabhi ko....... who is stoping anybody.
> 
> So many Indians take up US citizenship every year because US is an advanced country unlike India. Some can also take up Pakistani citizenship.
> 
> Actually you guys just want to spite India and these flag burners are just your guys (illegally staying here in India just like Kasab).
> 
> See this is the real democracy. Change of residential address is ok with us anyday.




So only the land matters to you and not the people 

Kashmiris' heritage and their history is with Kashmir and vice versa. not a practical solution.

please come up with a peaceful solution.


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## advaita

SSGPA1 said:


> No because Kashmir is the land for Kashmiris. This may be a hindu extremist's position but not a position of majority of educated Indians.



Ok i guess you are antaryami but i am only an ordinary Indian living amongst Indians and last time I checked they agreed with these ideas.



SSGPA1 said:


> How did you feel when Shiv Sena asked North Indians to go back to North India from Maharashtra?



When did por shiv sainiks or anti shiv sainiks ask for any kind of partition.


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## advaita

SSGPA1 said:


> So only the land matters to you and not the people
> 
> Kashmiris' heritage and their history is with Kashmir and vice versa. not a practical solution.
> 
> please come up with a peaceful solution.



We have Article 370 over here and the land of the MOST kashmiris that you were talking about will be handed over to the non-MOST kashmirs the kind that vote and dont burn Indian flags.

Good idea ...... no

:LOL Those who put the subcontinent and Afghans through so much.... are talking about peace


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## advaita

Yaron jaao apna I Day mannao.
Apne ghar ko dekho.
No point throwing stones when your own house is made of glass.

Happy Independence Day. May god bless us both.


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## SSGPA1

advaita said:


> We have Article 370 over here and the land of the MOST kashmiris that you were talking about will be handed over to the non-MOST kashmirs the kind that vote and dont burn Indian flags.



Well that will not be that easy my friend ... I am sure most Indians and all Pakistanis will act against such a dangerous and narrow minded approach 

Remember the goal to have peace between Pakistan and India will come through Kashmir.

The other option is war and destruction.


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## asq

Khajur said:


> Here is a video which pretty much echos whats u said.
> 
> Y4GJF9moVm0[/media] - Punjabi Lok (MUST WATCH!!)



Now that u have put this one sided video up, we should talk facts.
We know India has very developed video indutry so it can p[roduce flse videos and movies.

Why I said it because let us go to check the dates of this unfortunate mishap. it started after u guys would not could not behave and were very violant and uncarring as the teaching when I hear your songs about Muslims and about oranfzeb are very insultivre and not totally true.

I remember distinctly that u guys send us bangles from Amritsar when we refuse to join killing, But you guys kept on killing mercilessly, so some of the Muslim got really riled up by your acts of not only killing but using foul language and using insulting acts to rile Muslim in west Punjab and result was that killing started, but not at the level on which you.

East Punjabis not only killed indiscriminately but kidnapped Muslim women and hundreds are still in custody in East Punjab.


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## advaita

SSGPA1 said:


> Well that will not be that easy my friend ... I am sure most Indians and all Pakistanis will act against such a dangerous and narrow minded approach



I did not get it. What is narrow minded about population exchanges. We will send your people with all respect due. Remember you guys mutilate people (kargil) we act fair (somebody says we even recomended one of your guys for top mil honour) see the fairness in conduct. The non-MOST Kashmiris will also be happy. MOST Kashmiris aka Pakistanis will be happy. We will be happy. You it seems is the only one not ready have to your countrymen over in your country (quite like your kargil shaheeds)



SSGPA1 said:


> Remember the goal to have peace between Pakistan and India will come through Kashmir.
> 
> The other option is war and destruction.



We know our goal and will act accordingly. Request you not to keep reminding me about my goal. You worry about your home.

War is ok with us, in fact in *** we actually are discussing Two front all out all nucs war. Its a huge thread.


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## advaita

asq said:


> Now that u have put this one sided video up, we should talk facts.
> We know India has very developed video indutry so it can p[roduce flse videos and movies.



To aap janab bhi video bana lijeye if that is any consolation. Daniel Pearl ko marte hue to bana liya tha. Aur naa jane kitne aur videos.



asq said:


> Why I said it because let us go to check the dates of this unfortunate mishap. it started after u guys would not could not behave and were very violant and uncarring as the teaching when I hear your songs about Muslims and about oranfzeb are very insultivre and not totally true.



Pls do check the dates.... you will be in for a surprise. Request you to not start history from the date it was invented by your honourable historians.

I am assuming "oranfzeb" in your post is Mr. Aurangzeb.
No actually we even have a road named after the gentleman in Delhi. We respect him. Just that we never asked him to rule us. Woh janab bhi zabardasti hamare ghar ghus aaye. We still gave him time to do what he wanted to but I guess we were just to many for him to convert using Jaziya and killings and insults.



asq said:


> I remember distinctly that u guys send us bangles from Amritsar when we refuse to join killing, But you guys kept on killing mercilessly, so some of the Muslim got really riled up by your acts of not only killing but using foul language and using insulting acts to rile Muslim in west Punjab and result was that killing started, but not at the level on which you.



Oh how Pure and kind of you. Pls check the open source docs....



asq said:


> East Punjabis not only killed indiscriminately



I am sorry for all the killings on both side. Only goes to show, we should be more loving towards our neighbourer.

BTW if East Punjabis killed so many why does your heart bleed for KCF. Is it because it was your enterprise that failed.



asq said:


> but kidnapped Muslim women and hundreds are still in custody in East Punjab.



Chalo unko bhi le jao. I request my government to send them too (Since RAW is everywhere, I think they will pick up my request and convey to relevant people, Mossad too can do the same since i am told they are even better)


----------



## afriend

No sides want geninue freedom for kashmiris, all have their own interestes, no body can be saints about it. India points out pakistan hand, pakistan points out indian aritrocaises, this will never end unless and untill if there is a geninue policy by both countries to make peace as their major objective, if you put conditions to peace like, give kashmir then peace, then this will be a never ending cycle. And poor kashmiris will be the sufferers in the end.

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## SSGPA1

advaita said:


> I did not get it. What is narrow minded about population exchanges. We will send your people with all respect due. Remember you guys mutilate people (kargil) we act fair (somebody says we even recomended one of your guys for top mil honour) see the fairness in conduct. The non-MOST Kashmiris will also be happy. MOST Kashmiris aka Pakistanis will be happy. We will be happy. You it seems is the only one not ready have to your countrymen over in your country (quite like your kargil shaheeds).



and sadly no lesson learned on your part ... you like to bring up Kargil but you forget the reason behind Kargil.




advaita said:


> We know our goal and will act accordingly. Request you not to keep reminding me about my goal. You worry about your home.
> 
> War is ok with us, in fact in *** we actually are discussing Two front all out all nucs war. Its a huge thread.



Don't worry our home is secure, Indians should be happy that they don't have people like you running their country. 

before you open two war theatres in your forum , do consider the fact that all three particiapnts have nuclear weapons and discussing the impact of such weapons on a forum is far from the cruel realities of war.

Pakistan and India are sitting next to each other unlike the cold war scenario so also calculate the flight time of Babur and Ghori to major destinations in India.

While you are doing that, it will be inetresting to know the REAL active dates for Arjun, Arihant and the jet fighter for IAF.

By real active dates I mean the dates when India will have sufficient quantities of these platforms available to the IDF.

Till then we will keep pushing for a peaceful soultion of Kashmir and laugh at the outcome of MRCA deal.


----------



## SSGPA1

afriend said:


> No sides want geninue freedom for kashmiris, all have their own interestes, no body can be saints about it. India points out pakistan hand, pakistan points out indian aritrocaises, this will never end unless and untill if there is a geninue policy by both countries to make peace as their major objective, if you put conditions to peace like, give kashmir then peace, then this will be a never ending cycle. And poor kashmiris will be the sufferers in the end.



well said and this is the reason why we all should push for peace sooner than later ... Kashmir is the main reason therefore Kashmir should always be the begining point of any real efforts ... 
de-militirization of Kashmir on both ends will give Kashmiris a lot of relief.


----------



## advaita

afriend said:


> No sides want geninue freedom for kashmiris, all have their own interestes, no body can be saints about it. India points out pakistan hand, pakistan points out indian aritrocaises, this will never end unless and untill if there is a geninue policy by both countries to make peace as their major objective, if you put conditions to peace like, give kashmir then peace, then this will be a never ending cycle. And poor kashmiris will be the sufferers in the end.



non-MOST Kashmiris aka Indian kashmiris are only as much citizens of India as anybody else. They are not crying ant that is what we have to worry about and that is the population that is most going to benefit out of population exhange (idea given by Mr. Jinaah and I agree).
MOST kashmiris aka Pakistanis are also benefiting by joining the country of there choice. I am merely respect there choice.
How the rest of India is gaining. Request you to explain it to me. Since you seem you seem to have arrived at the conclusion that we have a vested interested..........


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## advaita

SSGPA1 said:


> well said and this is the reason why we all should push for peace sooner than later ... Kashmir is the main reason therefore Kashmir should always be the begining point of any real efforts ...
> de-militirization of Kashmir on both ends will give Kashmiris a lot of relief.



Pakistani insecurity is the main impediment even though Indians started no war.


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## advaita

SSGPA1 said:


> and sadly no lesson learned on your part ... you like to bring up Kargil but you forget the reason behind Kargil.



The lesson from kargil was that we should start working on our economy and military double quick. Any other thing would only mean that you guys want to get by stealth what you could not get by force.




SSGPA1 said:


> Don't worry our home is secure, Indians should be happy that they don't have people like you running their country.



Respectfully summit that in none of my posts ever, did i ever expressed desire or worry for your country.

Indians have given me a vote and I run my govt as much as any other citizen. I dont take up guns against my countrymen and will never ever since I dont consider myself a special citizen.



SSGPA1 said:


> before you open two war theatres in your forum , do consider the fact that all three particiapnts have nuclear weapons and discussing the impact of such weapons on a forum is far from the cruel realities of war.
> 
> Pakistan and India are sitting next to each other unlike the cold war scenario so also calculate the flight time of Babur and Ghori to major destinations in India.
> 
> While you are doing that, it will be inetresting to know the REAL active dates for Arjun, Arihant and the jet fighter for IAF.
> 
> By real active dates I mean the dates when India will have sufficient quantities of these platforms available to the IDF.
> 
> Till then we will keep pushing for a peaceful soultion of Kashmir and laugh at the outcome of MRCA deal.



We were discussing (I admit i was in a minority) not starting a war. All of India goes to war on the command of its Chief the President. But till that time we can surely examine all angles. That is what were doing. Remember we are a democracy.

I know there we had our defences in poor shape that is why my point was to stick tooth and nail to the stated Indian doctrine of Massive Retaliation for first strikes by NBC on any fronts, and though not a part of the doctrine but I was advocating the same stand MR even without NBC first strike in case we were in a Two front war.

Rest of course, I leave to my Chief.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

SSGPA1 said:


> well said and this is the reason why we all should push for peace sooner than later ... Kashmir is the main reason therefore Kashmir should always be the begining point of any real efforts ...
> de-militirization of Kashmir on both ends will give Kashmiris a lot of relief.



and President Pervez Musharraf was so close to come to a deal like that


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## Awesome

Look Indians talking about Population exchanges, love to hide the fact that its Indians that need to be booted out of Kashmir not Kashmiris that need to be booted out of Kashmir.

Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris, not Indians.

This is Kashmiris burning away the imposed Indian symbol upon them. This flame would not end till every Indian is expunged out of Kashmir and Pakistan fully supports that. 

Pakistan's support to Kashmiris is just. They can choose to vote for Pakistan, Independence or even India. We just want that, grant them a right to choose.

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## Awesome

I mean, how many will you remove from Kashmir before you realize that they are all not Indians!


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## SSGPA1

advaita said:


> The lesson from kargil was that we should start working on our economy and military double quick. Any other thing would only mean that you guys want to get by stealth what you could not get by force..



In 1948 a portion was liberated and that can happen again with a very high cost to both countries so lets talk a practical and a peaceful solution instead of war.



advaita said:


> I know there we had our defences in poor shape that is why my point was to stick tooth and nail to the stated Indian doctrine of Massive Retaliation for first strikes by NBC on any fronts, and though not a part of the doctrine but I was advocating the same stand MR even without NBC first strike in case we were in a Two front war.



Thanks for sharing, we will look into this ...


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## Awesome

Now the Kashmiris don't even want to see Indian independence celebrations! Celebrations that are state managed without the will of the people of the land!



> *AFP: Police in Kashmir clash with anti-India demonstrators
> *
> SRINAGAR, India &#8212; Police fired teargas Friday to disperse an anti-India demonstration by Kashmiris celebrating Pakistan's Independence Day.
> Scores of young men, some waving the Pakistani flag, emerged out of the Indian region's main Mughal-built mosque in summer capital Srinagar and staged a noisy pro-Pakistan demonstration.
> 
> They burst crackers and burned the Indian flag as police fired repeated teargas cannisters to disperse the demonstrators, who eventually retreated into narrow lanes from where they pelted officers with stones and bricks.
> 
> A nearly 20-year-old Muslim insurgency in Indian Kashmir has claimed more than 47,000 lives.
> 
> The majority of militant groups active in the Muslim-majority region favour its secession from India to neighbouring Pakistan. Few want total independence for the region.
> 
> Violence has declined in the state since India and Pakistan started a peace process in 2004 to resolve all pending disputes including Kashmir.
> The dispute dates from the partition of the subcontinent in 1947 and the Kashmiri region is split between the two countries along a UN-monitored line of control.
> 
> In the early years of the insurgency, militants used to hold parades to mark Pakistan's national holiday, but these faded after India poured troops into the region.
> 
> The Indian army Friday took positions in buildings, including hospitals which overlook the venue for celebrations of India's Independence Day on Saturday which is boycotted by separatists.
> 
> Sharpshooters mounted machine guns and grenade launchers on the top storeys in Srinagar to keep vigil on Bakshi Stadium which will host a tightly guarded ceremony, the first to be attended by new leader Omar Abdullah.
> 
> The venue has been attacked by rockets and bombs on past Independence Days, which separatists mark each year with a strike.


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## Spring Onion

Asim Aquil said:


> Look Indians talking about Population exchanges, love to hide the fact that its Indians that need to be booted out of Kashmir not Kashmiris that need to be booted out of Kashmir.
> 
> Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris, not Indians.
> 
> This is Kashmiris burning away the imposed Indian symbol upon them. This flame would not end till every Indian is expunged out of Kashmir and Pakistan fully supports that.
> 
> Pakistan's support to Kashmiris is just. They can choose to vote for Pakistan, Independence or even India. We just want that, grant them a right to choose.




And Asim who can forget this unforgatble moment when Pakistani falg was hoisted in Assam for many hours


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## Spring Onion

*Kashmiris carrying Pakistani flags telling India to leave Kashmir*

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## Awesome

Jana said:


> And Asim who can forget this unforgatble moment when Pakistani falg was hoisted in Assam for many hours
> 
> 
> 0oI-PjQkXx4[/media] - Pakistani flag hoisted in Assam (India)


Well I don't support that and don't care. That IS India, that is an independence movement. Kashmir is an Expunge illegal occupiers movement. Kashmir was never ever a part of India. Assam is.

I think the Assamese just wanted to piss off the Indians so they put up the Pak flag, it should be really disturbing for Indians especially since thats a whole different level of hatred... we really should not read more into that.


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## Spring Onion

ok Asim you are right

Kashmiris shouting long live Pakistan in indian occupied Kashmir

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## Spring Onion

*Kashmiris carrying Pakistani Flag showing unity with Pakistan*


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## Awesome

Jana said:


> *Kashmiris carrying Pakistani flags telling India to leave Kashmir*
> 
> 
> HSy0U0lZfjM[/media] - Kashmiris carrying Pakistani flags telling India to leave Kashmir


The Kashmiris have a terrifying slogan, "Hum cheen ke raheinge Azaadi", "We'll forcefully take away our freedom". It shows that they have ZERO trust in Indians resolving anything in the interest of the people of Kashmir.

India has not ONCE spoken about the right of the Kashmiris, oh yes it did once when it first approached the UN for a plebiscite desperately seeking a ceasefire from the marching Pakistani army. But other than that, its always about India, India, India. There is no love, no connect, no culture no national pride between the two distinct races.

They're driven to the point where they know, they have to cheehn their Azaadi, nothing else would work. India has brought the situation to this point... In Kashmir India has become synonymous to the words betrayal and deceit



> *India's broken promise to Kashmir - The Denver Post*
> By Joe McGowan, Jr.
> 
> POSTED: 08/13/2009 01:00:00 AM MDT
> 
> Muslim extremists fighting American and other coalition forces in Afghanistan under the Taliban banner capture headlines daily.
> 
> But few readers and even fewer of the young foreign correspondents realize this warfare traces its beginnings to the disputed Himalayan state of Kashmir and India's failure to abide by promises made 62 years ago.
> 
> As one who traveled constantly in Pakistan from 1965 to 1968 and who went back in 1995 to teach at Punjab University in Lahore, Pakistan, I believe much of today's Islamic militance stems from the west's failure to force a resolution in Kashmir.
> 
> Many of today's Taliban guerrillas are sons and grandsons of Muslims who have waged war against India virtually since Great Britain granted the area independence on Aug. 15, 1947.
> 
> Britain's Lord Mountbatten, in India negotiating with Hindu and Muslim leaders, agreed to creation of East and West Pakistan. In the final days of negotiations, the Muslims demanded Kashmir go to Pakistan.
> 
> Mountbatten reported to London that India's Hindu leaders had agreed to a popular vote in Kashmir to determine if the state would go to Pakistan, to India, or become an independent state.
> 
> On Dec. 31, 1947, Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru wrote the U.N. Secretary-General that as soon as "raiders" were driven out of Kashmir, the people there would freely decide their fate in a "plebiscite or referendum." No such vote has ever been held.
> 
> On April 21, 1948, a U.N. resolution said a plebiscite should be held in Kashmir on joining India or Pakistan. No such vote has ever been held.
> 
> Through the years, the Kashmir debate has continued and India and Pakistan have engaged in a series of wars. To date, India has ignored 16 U.N. Security Council resolutions saying a vote should be held in the disputed state. Yet, some suggestions have been made that India deserves a seat on the Security Council!
> 
> In October, 1963, the U.N. debated Kashmir - the 110th debate on the 90-plus percent Muslim populated state. No outcome.
> 
> As a result of the wars, Pakistan controls 5,134 square miles of Azad (Free) Kashmir and China holds a chunk of northeast Kashmir.
> 
> Published reports say India stations 600,000 soldiers in Kashmir, the highest percentage of armed soldiers to civilians anywhere in the world. India denies the figure, but will not give one of its own.
> 
> By contrast, the United States sent approximately 150,000 military personnel to the Persian Gulf to fight a dictator who had sophisticated jet fighters and missiles. That was one-fourth the size of the Indian army suppressing Kashmiri Muslims, mostly agricultural and handicraft people.
> 
> The Vale of Kashmir should be wealthy, with both Pakistan and India benefiting from tourists traveling through their countries to visit the lovely mountain valley. Kashmir is renowned for Cashmere woolens, carpets and children's rugs called Namdas.
> 
> Instead, because of the constant military presence and frequent outbreaks of violence, tourism has been dead for years and Kashmiris suffer economically.
> 
> Kashmir is a festering cesspool of poverty, hunger and rage. The International Commission of Jurists says Indian legislation on Kashmir is "draconian."
> 
> There is little doubt that Pakistan's intelligence agency has for years armed guerrillas fighting the Indian forces in Kashmir. It is also widely accepted that many of the guerrilla fighters left Kashmir to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. Today, they are the Taliban.
> 
> Would American servicemen have to be battling the Taliban today if India had resolved the Kashmir issue years ago?
> 
> Joe McGowan, a Lakewood resident, and retired Denver bureau chief, spent 42 years with The Associated Press, including years in Asia, Central and South America. EDITOR'S NOTE: This is an online-only column and has not been edited.


----------



## Awesome

A Self-determination day!





> *KASHMIRIS OBSERVE SELF DETERMINATION DAY*
> 
> IslamabadKashmiris across Jammu and Kashmir, Pakistan and abroad would observe Self-determination Day on Thursday (today) in commemoration of UNCIP ( United Nations Commission on India and Pakistan) resolution of August 13, 1947 which promises plebiscite as solution to the dispute of Kashmir. The Patron-in-Chief of JKLF Mr Amanullah Khan told Pakistan Observer on telephone that the best viable settlement of the Kashmir dispute could come via granting right of self-determination to the people of Jammu and Kashmir. That right promised to Kashmiris by UN is sacrosanct with the Kashmiris for which they are struggling for past over 61 years, making immense sacrifices, he added.
> 
> It was on August 13, 1947 that the United Nations Commission on India and Pakistan constituted by the Security Council had passed a resolution accepting right of self-determination to the people of Kashmir as the basis of settlement.
> 
> However on January 5, 1949 the same Commission passed another resolution that prescribed the accession solution - Kashmiris either to accede to Pakistan or to India. JKLF believes that the self-determination principle should not be conditional; that should be unviersal.
> 
> The Day on Thursday would be marked by open public meetings, walks, and adoption resolutions urging world leaders to help Kashmiris materialize their aspirations.


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## advaita

Jana said:


> ok Asim you are right
> 
> Kashmiris shouting long live Pakistan in indian occupied Kashmir



Asim and you are just Tag teaming.

Trying desparately to get imagined Indian involvement in Baloch out.

In fact we should talk about *** to be handed over to India.


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## Awesome

advaita said:


> Asim and you are just Tag teaming.
> 
> Trying desparately to get imagined Indian involvement in Baloch out.
> 
> In fact we should talk about *** to be handed over to India.


See! Again for you its always about India. I'm tag teamed with Kashmiris only. Thats the reason why Kashmiris hoist my country's flag and burn down yours. You guys hate Kashmiris! Or look down upon them as masters. You illegally occupy them.

The only thing you need to do is come off your high horse, and deal with the problem.

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## advaita

Asim Aquil said:


> The Kashmiris have a terrifying slogan, "Hum cheen ke raheinge Azaadi", "We'll forcefully take away our freedom". It shows that they have ZERO trust in Indians resolving anything in the interest of the people of Kashmir.



The same slogan, or even worse was raised in 47. And Indians had to conceed at the time. And look what happened. All blood no sense.

Never again.

Happy I Day to me too. May god bless us all.


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## Spring Onion

advaita said:


> Asim and you are just Tag teaming.
> 
> Trying desparately to get imagined Indian involvement in Baloch out.
> 
> In fact we should talk about *** to be handed over to India.



Yeh and millions of Kashmiris, and thousands who stage protest and hoist Pakistani flags and burn down Indians flag, they are also team tage teamed.

learn to absorb the truth Mr Indian.

Kashmir is an independent state which had been occupied your illegal Indian army.

Kashmiris simply want the Indians out of their land.

Now please do not demand Asim not to speak for Kashmiris just because you see it as injustic to adminship to speak for innocent people just because it doesnt sit well with your ideas. Thanks


----------



## advaita

Asim Aquil said:


> See! Again for you its always about India. I'm tag teamed with Kashmiris only. Thats the reason why Kashmiris hoist my country's flag and burn down yours. You guys hate Kashmiris! Or look down upon them as masters. You illegally occupy them.
> 
> The only thing you need to do is come off your high horse, and deal with the problem.



See large minorities in non-kashmiri muslims too, love you and when we ask them if they would like to go over still they refuse. Then what do we do. Obviously India cannot be partitioned again, even if the whole world wishes to.


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## advaita

Jana said:


> Yeh and millions of Kashmiris, and thousands who stage protest and hoist Pakistani flags and burn down Indians flag, they are also team tage teamed.
> 
> learn to absorb the truth Mr Indian.
> 
> Kashmir is an independent state which had been occupied your illegal Indian army.
> 
> Kashmiris simply want the Indians out of their land.
> 
> Now please do not demand Asim not to speak for Kashmiris just because you see it as injustic to adminship to speak for innocent people just because it doesnt sit well with your ideas. Thanks



Respected lady kindly inko le jayiye.


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## Awesome

advaita said:


> See large minorities in non-kashmiri muslims too, love you and when we ask them if they would like to go over still they refuse. Then what do we do. Obviously India cannot be partitioned again, even if the whole world wishes to.


Ok, fine if that's the case the minorities can move out!

And plus how can we believe you? 

You don't believe, us, we don't believe you. So let's conduct an independent vote and ask the Kashmiris? Masla Solved.


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## advaita

Asim Aquil said:


> A Self-determination day!



Kashmiri ancestor had already self determined. Obviously self determination cannot be done with every generation. Otherwise let Baloch self determine. and Seraiki, and sindhi, and ...........


----------



## Awesome

advaita said:


> The same slogan, or even worse was raised in 47. And Indians had to conceed at the time. And look what happened. All blood no sense.
> 
> Never again.
> 
> Happy I Day to me too. May god bless us all.


So you're saying you guys are enslaving and illegal ruling over Kashmiris as part of a child's tantrum?

We weren't yours to begin with in 1947, the Kashmiris aren't yours now. Countries aren't made by putting a gun to their temples and make them follow you. They have to want to be Indians. The people who left you didn't want to be Indians. The people who are going to leave you also don't want to be Indians.

Let the lands that don't want to be Indians leave.


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## advaita

Asim Aquil said:


> Ok, fine if that's the case the minorities can move out!
> 
> And plus how can we believe you?




Ab aap ko apne Pakistani bhaion par to bharosa karna chahiye (my suggestion only obviously only the choice of you two participants matter - Pakistanis in Pakistan and Pakistanis in India)



Asim Aquil said:


> You don't believe, us, we don't believe you. So let's conduct an independent vote and ask the Kashmiris? Masla Solved.



Answered in earlier post


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## Awesome

advaita said:


> Kashmiri ancestor had already self determined. Obviously self determination cannot be done with every generation. Otherwise let Baloch self determine. and Seraiki, and sindhi, and ...........


No they didn't, an Independent UN administered plebiscite was never held. 

IF you're confident that Kashmiris will choose India then there should be no debate and let them cast their vote. 

Right now as the situation stands, Indians appear horrified by the notion of self-determination because there is only one determination. Kashmir is not a part of India. The only thing that needs to be decided, by vote obviously, if Kashmiris want to be Pakistan or Independent.

Pakistanis will support Kashmiris 100&#37; in either decision.


----------



## Awesome

advaita said:


> Ab aap ko apne Pakistani bhaion par to bharosa karna chahiye (my suggestion only obviously only the choice of you two participants matter - Pakistanis in Pakistan and Pakistanis in India)
> 
> 
> 
> Answered in earlier post


There is only ONE opinion that matters. Kashmiris... Kashmiris only!


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## advaita

Asim Aquil said:


> So you're saying you guys are enslaving and illegal ruling over Kashmiris as part of a child's tantrum?
> 
> We weren't yours to begin with in 1947, the Kashmiris aren't yours now. Countries aren't made by putting a gun to their temples and make them follow you. They have to want to be Indians. The people who left you didn't want to be Indians. The people who are going to leave you also don't want to be Indians.
> 
> Let the lands that don't want to be Indians leave.



I want to prevent partition of my country. How is that childish tantrum.
About you not being our to begin with. Yes dead right, that is why pakistan is for muslims who dont want to be with India. So again take them pls.


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## Spring Onion

advaita said:


> Respected lady kindly inko le jayiye.



Your above statment to take Kashmiris to Pakistan exposes the real Indian mentality that is always at work. On one hand the Indians trying to sell the fake notion that Kashmiris are Indians but on the other hand when they shout and resist the Indian brutalities you Indians come up with the demand "inko le jayiye" 


Mr advaita ap apni ghasib fauj ko le jayae.

The land belongs to Kashmiris and they are going to stay there. Its Indian army that should go away.


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## SSGPA1

advaita said:


> See large minorities in non-kashmiri muslims too, love you and when we ask them if they would like to go over still they refuse. Then what do we do. Obviously India cannot be partitioned again, even if the whole world wishes to.



First of all India didn't concede crap. Kashmir is not part of India so there is no question of conceding anything. 

There was no united India ever rather a combination of princely states and land occupied by the British. Before that, Moghuls were rulers of Hindustan along with alliance from many states.

Pakistan got its independence from British Raj and so did India.

In 1947, majority stayed where they were and only people moved who didn't wanted to live in India and Pakistan.


----------



## advaita

Asim Aquil said:


> There is only ONE opinion that matters. Kashmiris... Kashmiris only!



Well in that case every child can sue his parent. Kashmiri opinion was taken in 47 and that was through the mode of partition. They didnt go, so their ancestors wanted to stay. Now there offsprings dont then also it is ok with Indians they can go join the land created for the muslims who dont want to stay with India.


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## Spring Onion

advaita said:


> Kashmiri ancestor had already self determined. Obviously self determination cannot be done with every generation. *Otherwise let Baloch self determine. and Seraiki, and sindhi, and .*..........





If they were on UN resoultions we would have so move on man. And hey do not add NWFP to your list otherwise you will get some real time hard hitting 

Kashmir is altogather different.


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## Spring Onion

advaita said:


> Well in that case every child can sue his parent. Kashmiri opinion was taken in 47 and that was through the mode of partition. They didnt go, so their ancestors wanted to stay. Now there offsprings dont then also it is ok with Indians they can go join the land created for the muslims who dont want to stay with India.



 Kashmiri opinion was taken when Mr Gulab Singh sold them against a meager money ??

And if their opinion was taken in 1947 then why they are protesting till this day against Bharat???


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## Awesome

advaita said:


> Well in that case every child can sue his parent. Kashmiri opinion was taken in 47 and that was through the mode of partition. They didnt go, so their ancestors wanted to stay. Now there offsprings dont then also it is ok with Indians they can go join the land created for the muslims who dont want to stay with India.


Kashmiris are not children and you're not their parents, they are not seeking emancipation from their parents but freedom from their hostage takers.

They want freedom, they're freaking hoisting the flags of your enemies and burning down your own.

This is the only way. From all that you're saying its clear, deep down you know, the Kashmiris really really hate you. It's only greed that keeps India binded to the land of the Kashmiris.

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## SSGPA1

advaita said:


> Kashmiri ancestor had already self determined. Obviously self determination cannot be done with every generation. Otherwise let Baloch self determine. and Seraiki, and sindhi, and ...........



Patel and others forced Raja to join India by sending the army. 

Think about Sikhs, Muslims, Tamils, Assamis, West Bengal and many others before talking about Pakistan.

A poll was conduct this week and majority of Pakistanis think as Pakistanis first and then about their ethnicity. I knew that and this poll was conducted for you 

Good thing is that India is not governed by people with your mentallity otherwise India would have been divided into 50 pcs by now (per the Chinese plan)


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## advaita

SSGPA1 said:


> First of all India didn't concede crap. Kashmir is not part of India so there is no question of conceding anything.
> 
> There was no united India ever rather a combination of princely states and land occupied by the British. Before that, Moghuls were rulers of Hindustan along with alliance from many states.



Pls see history, Indians were there even in Pakistan, Hindus and Buddhists to boot, your ancestors perhaps. Still we are not claiming any area of Pakistan for the very simple reason that the partition was under an arrangement and howsoever bitter for us we are dutybound to respect it. We will try our level best to ensure it that even you are held accountable for it.



SSGPA1 said:


> Pakistan got its independence from British Raj and so did India.



No contest.



SSGPA1 said:


> In 1947, majority stayed where they were and only people moved who didn't wanted to live in India and Pakistan.



My point exactly, partition is done and over with. If anyone still not done with he can move out.


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## Omar1984

Kashmiris have much more in common with Pakistanis than with Indians and this is a fact.

In Pakistan, Kashmiris are one of the most patriotic Pakistanis. Khwajas and Bhats are famous Kashmiri surnames and they are very influential in Pakistan.

Nawaz Sharif and Shahbaz Sharif are also Kashmiris and are loved by entire Pakistan especially Punjab province of Pakistan (the most populated province).

Now you tell me are Kashmiris Pakistanis or Indians.

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## Spring Onion

Asim Aquil said:


> Kashmiris are not children and you're not their parents, they are not seeking emancipation from their parents but freedom from their hostage takers.
> 
> They want freedom, they're freaking hoisting the flags of your enemies and burning down your own.
> 
> This is the only way. From all that you're saying its clear, deep down you know, the Kashmiris really really hate you. It's only greed that keeps India binded to the land of the Kashmiris.




They even do not like Indians even if they are Indian Muslims because Kashmiris are different people and they are a separate state not part of India.


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## Awesome

Omar1984 said:


> Kashmiris have much more in common with Pakistanis than with Indians and this is a fact.
> 
> In Pakistan, Kashmiris are one of the most patriotic Pakistanis. Khwajas and Bhats are famous Kashmiri surnames and they are very influential in Pakistan.
> 
> Nawaz Sharif and Shahbaz Sharif are also Kashmiris and are loved by entire Pakistan especially Punjab province of Pakistan (the most populated province).
> 
> Now you tell me are Kashmiris Pakistanis or Indians.


Exactly in Pakistan Kashmiris have been elected Prime Minister! They are tightly integrated within our society, especially Punjab. In Pakistan they are a stronger group than what Jews are to America.

So Pakistan's stance is clear. Support Kashmiris. Kashmiris stance is clear, kick out Indians out of their land. India's stance is hold on till the very end because its an ego issue?

That's such a crappy reason when you think about it. Such a bad one.

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## Hyde

and guess what? Indians still claim Kashmir is part of India 

Kashmiri's never accepted themselves as an Indians or else there was no war at all in Held Kashmir. The only reason we hear news about murder, rape and strikes is because despite the 62 years of independance they still want to join Pakistan because we not just share the common interests, language, culture but also a religion


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## Khajur

Asim Aquil said:


> Well I don't support that and don't care. That IS India, that is an independence movement. Kashmir is an Expunge illegal occupiers movement. Kashmir was never ever a part of India. Assam is.
> 
> I think the Assamese just wanted to piss off the Indians so they put up the Pak flag, it should be really disturbing for Indians especially since thats a whole different level of hatred... we really should not read more into that.



Oh no no...why leave Assam??

Assam is fair game too.

Afterall Jana and wise mentor in red cap would love to hear Radio Pakistan being broadcasted from New Deheli.


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## SSGPA1

advaita said:


> Pls see history, Indians were there even in Pakistan, Hindus and Buddhists to boot, your ancestors perhaps. Still we are not claiming any area of Pakistan for the very simple reason that the partition was under an arrangement and howsoever bitter for us we are dutybound to respect it. We will try our level best to ensure it that even you are held accountable for it.
> 
> My point exactly, partition is done and over with. If anyone still not done with he can move out.



It is late in India so you should get some sleep because now you are calling all Hindus Indians and I tell you what my Hindu friend from Pakistan didn't get married for a while because he couldn't find a suitable Hindu Pakistani girl in the USA. This all happened while there is a load of Hindu Indian population in the US.

Partition was never complete because Kashmiris never got th right to self determine.


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## Awesome

Khajur said:


> Oh no no...why leave Assam??
> 
> Assam is fair game too.
> 
> Afterall Jana and wise mentor in red cap would love to hear Radio Pakistan being broadcasted from New Deheli.


Stop picking on Jana, it just shows your weakness and inability to contest her on topic, so you have to resort to character assassination.

I left our Assam because it really isn't fair game. Nowhere in India is it fair game. Kashmir is disputed, non-Indian territory. Our interests are in Kashmir only. We will condemn and praise Indian actions in the rest of your country as merited but we won't be supporting any independence movement out there.


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## advaita

Khajur said:


> Oh no no...why leave Assam??
> 
> Assam is fair game too.
> 
> Afterall Jana and wise mentor in red cap would love to hear Radio Pakistan being broadcasted from New Deheli.



Leave it Khajur, we have already made our point and there is nothing new.

They have a right to their views just as much as we do, howsoever wrong they may be. Lets respect that.

But this time no partition.


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## Khajur

Mr X said:


> and guess what? Indians still claim Kashmir is part of India
> 
> Kashmiri's never accepted themselves as an Indians or else there was no war at all in Held Kashmir. The only reason we hear news about murder, rape and strikes is because despite the 62 years of independance they still want to join Pakistan because we not just share the common interests, language, culture but also a religion



Guess what we not only claim but have 2/3 under our control and its not going anywhere anytime soon.

We too share common interests,language,culture and also lot of same religon (16 cr muslims) with kashmiris.

Trust me Partition time is over and lets play some new game.


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## pmukherjee

Pakistanis have a lot of concern for Kashmir which is absolutely understandable. The best way for Pakistan to help Kashmiris is by putting a stop to the militancy in Kashmir. 

We all know that the militancy in Kashmir is currently almost purely Pakistani , both Deobandis and of Ahl-e-hadith following (now mainly Punjabi)(There were Pathans involved earlier as also Afghans). Native Kashmiri groups like JKLF, Ikhwan-ul musalmeen and Al Badr have long been liquidated with their leaders forming the Huriyet Council. Only Hizbul Mujahideen (HM) remains, but it is so weak that they do no more than providing logistics for the transiting foreigners.

In 1988, Indian Army was confined to manning the posts on the borders with Pakistan and China. There was no Army presence in the interior except for transit camps which catered for soldiers moving to and fro the border posts. The Army presence throughout Kashmir today is due to the militancy. Militancy stops-Army goes away and only those looking after the international borders remain on the borders. Tourism blossoms once again. Prosperity returns to the people (I mean how can the economy of a state grow in the middle of an active militancy situation?). The much hated Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) is withdrawn. Army gets much needed rest and time for training and maintenence. 

It is really a win-win situation for all concerned. And it all depends on 
Pakistan. By now it is clear to all concerned that Pak backed militancy is not going to alter the status of Kashmir, even if it goes on for another thousand years. India and Pakistan will spend millions of dollars in fighting and aiding militancy in Kashmir respectively, money which can be used more productively else where. And Kashmir, caught in the cross fire will continue to suffer. May be those green flags in Srinagar were a plea to Pakistan to stop the suffering.


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## xebex

If someboy burnt the Indian flag inside India then they are going to jail.period


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## Peshwa

Asim Aquil said:


> No they didn't, an Independent UN administered plebiscite was never held.
> 
> IF you're confident that Kashmiris will choose India then there should be no debate and let them cast their vote.
> 
> Right now as the situation stands, Indians appear horrified by the notion of self-determination because there is only one determination. Kashmir is not a part of India. The only thing that needs to be decided, by vote obviously, if Kashmiris want to be Pakistan or Independent.
> 
> Pakistanis will support Kashmiris 100% in either decision.



Asim...Im assuming you're Kashmiri by origin....hence the fire within....
I feel for you and for the Kashmiri's...living under 24/7 military rule must be a nightmare ....but....

Lets just get one thing straight......The land of Kashmir belongs to India....NOT Pakistan....NOT Kashmiri's who love Pakistan......only India.....If Kashmiri's want a claim to this land....they have to be part of India and be Indians.....If they love Pakistan....then there is an occupied Pakistani Kashmir just accross the border they can go to.....
Indian Kashmir is for Kashmiri Indians.....Pakistan Occupied Kashmir is for these traitors who wave Pakistani flags on our soil.....

Its a simple concept......I dont see an argument here.....We dont want people who dont want to live with us.....period!!!

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## pak-marine

pmukherjee said:


> Pakistanis have a lot of concern for Kashmir which is absolutely understandable. The best way for Pakistan to help Kashmiris is by putting a stop to the militancy in Kashmir.
> 
> 
> In 1988, Indian Army was confined to manning the posts on the borders with Pakistan and China. There was no Army presence in the interior except for transit camps which catered for soldiers moving to and fro the border posts. The Army presence throughout Kashmir today is due to the militancy. Militancy stops-Army goes away and only those looking after the international borders remain on the borders. Tourism blossoms once again. Prosperity returns to the people (I mean how can the economy of a state grow in the middle of an active militancy situation?). The much hated Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) is withdrawn. Army gets much needed rest and time for training and maintenence.
> 
> It is really a win-win situation for all concerned. And it all depends on
> Pakistan. By now it is clear to all concerned that Pak backed militancy is not going to alter the status of Kashmir, even if it goes on for another thousand years. India and Pakistan will spend millions of dollars in fighting and aiding militancy in Kashmir respectively, money which can be used more productively else where. And Kashmir, caught in the cross fire will continue to suffer. May be those green flags in Srinagar were a plea to Pakistan to stop the suffering.



good advice but indians should apply it to them selves first as they are the agreesors , when kashmir is there all the liberalism in this hipocrate world is gone out of the window & the media sits and watch the blood shed. 

Indians cant stop militancy unless they convince pakistanis, we say mumbai was wrong whoeva did it please have b*lls to face the truth and accept for once whats happning in kashmir and what indian army is doing to the people is insane. Kashmir will never get resolved if india wants peace they should leave kashmir Or Pakistanis will keep supporting the mujahideen for the next zillion years no matter what the cost is !


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## Peshwa

SSGPA1 said:


> First of all India didn't concede crap. Kashmir is not part of India so there is no question of conceding anything.
> 
> There was no united India ever rather a combination of princely states and land occupied by the British. Before that, Moghuls were rulers of Hindustan along with alliance from many states.
> 
> Pakistan got its independence from British Raj and so did India.
> 
> In 1947, majority stayed where they were and only people moved who didn't wanted to live in India and Pakistan.



My friend...if there was no India.....what the hell was Christopher Columbus doing trying to find "India"....and why are the natives of Americas called "Red Indians"????
Care to explain? The way I see it....there was no Pakistan before '47, there has always been an India.....and will live forever.....
In fact no one would have known what Pakistan even is if it wasnt for Afghanistan and the soviet occupation.....

Please dont throw non-sensical arguments....
Even if there was no one ruler ruling India, the lands from the Indus to the Brahmaputra and from the Himalayas to the Kanyakumari was called India......
With your theory, half of Europe should be called Germany because the germans occupied them during WW2
Another way to look at it is....why did the British choose the name Bristish India, if India never existed???

Its one thing to fight over Kashmir....now you want us to give up our history as well??? Thats plain bonkers!!!

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## Khajur

Asim Aquil said:


> Stop picking on Jana, it just shows your weakness and inability to contest her on topic, so you have to resort to character assassination.
> 
> I left our Assam because it really isn't fair game. Nowhere in India is it fair game. Kashmir is disputed, non-Indian territory. Our interests are in Kashmir only. We will condemn and praise Indian actions in the rest of your country as merited but we won't be supporting any independence movement out there.



Its her who dragged Assam's name in the first place,didnt she??

Anyway no i meant no offence but we can be more honest with ourselves . And i must say that insurgents in Assam are getting more tactical support from ISI than u would ever know or admit to.

Now its doesnt matter if couple of hundered youths in Srinagar protest in front of international media when on the other hand their village counterparts throng to army centers on recruitment days.We have been dealing with such independence day eve protests for last many yrs and trustme, we can deal with them in the future too.

So i would repeat the same thing...pls dont get any idea out of such protests ...times for redrawing borders in kashmir is gone. And such a scenerio is filled with more danger than u can pathom or willing to take. But there are soft options available which both india and pakistan can certainly opt for, those would help kashmiris more than any grand strategic scheme or bigger proxy war sponsored from pakistan.

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## pak-marine

Peshwa said:


> Asim...Im assuming you're Kashmiri by origin....hence the fire within....
> I feel for you and for the Kashmiri's...living under 24/7 military rule must be a nightmare ....but....
> 
> Lets just get one thing straight......The land of Kashmir belongs to India....NOT Pakistan....NOT Kashmiri's who love Pakistan......only India.....If Kashmiri's want a claim to this land....they have to be part of India and be Indians.....If they love Pakistan....then there is an occupied Pakistani Kashmir just accross the border they can go to.....
> Indian Kashmir is for Kashmiri Indians.....Pakistan Occupied Kashmir is for these traitors who wave Pakistani flags on our soil.....
> 
> Its a simple concept......I dont see an argument here.....We dont want people who dont want to live with us.....period!!!




very silly ! u have shown the typical indian ignorant thought ,the land of kashmir belongs to the people of kashmir ,they have shown with force and they demonstrated that they want Pakistan , Indians are agreesors occupying their land and they are no body to impose their thoughts on the kashmiris , does your neighbour take decisions for your house or you do it ?? Kashmiris want pakistan so India must get out of kashmir.


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## Peshwa

Jana said:


> Your above statment to take Kashmiris to Pakistan exposes the real Indian mentality that is always at work. On one hand the Indians trying to sell the fake notion that Kashmiris are Indians but on the other hand when they shout and resist the Indian brutalities you Indians come up with the demand "inko le jayiye"
> 
> 
> Mr advaita ap apni ghasib fauj ko le jayae.
> 
> The land belongs to Kashmiris and they are going to stay there. Its Indian army that should go away.



Hey Lady.....Do u want us to put garlands and worship these fools who are blatantly insulting our country.....We dont want/need any traitors living amongst us.....they can go to hell or Pakistan for all I care or my Indian bretheren!!!

Frankly what I want is a chance to develop Kashmir.....make these people happy...help them get better lives.....but with all the militancy....how can India invest in any real development for the Kashmiris??
If you want us to actually care about Kashmiri's, then give us a chance to improve their lives......

Let me just pose a simple question.....Do u think just because Pakistanis and a large number of Kashmiri's share the same religion, so they're going to be happy??? What makes you think the Kashmiri's care about freedom because of a religious affiliation??? Please point out how Islam and joining Pakistan is going to help the Kashmiris?

Another thing....as long as the instrument of ascession lies with India's name on it.....Kashmir belongs to India and Indian Kashmiris....NOT Kashmiris living in India who love Pakistan!!!


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## blain2

Peshwa said:


> Asim...Im assuming you're Kashmiri by origin....hence the fire within....
> I feel for you and for the Kashmiri's...living under 24/7 military rule must be a nightmare ....but....
> 
> Lets just get one thing straight......The land of Kashmir belongs to India....NOT Pakistan....NOT Kashmiri's who love Pakistan......only India.....If Kashmiri's want a claim to this land....they have to be part of India and be Indians.....If they love Pakistan....then there is an occupied Pakistani Kashmir just accross the border they can go to.....
> Indian Kashmir is for Kashmiri Indians.....Pakistan Occupied Kashmir is for these traitors who wave Pakistani flags on our soil.....
> 
> Its a simple concept......I dont see an argument here.....We dont want people who dont want to live with us.....period!!!



Using your logic, Pakistan, SL and BD are also part of India. Last I checked, the UN had resolutions on the disputed nature of the state. Maybe Nehru and team messed up by letting UN declare that region a disputed state. Lets understand that there is a problem. Your denying it does not mean that this problem does not exist.


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## Awesome

Peshwa said:


> Asim...Im assuming you're Kashmiri by origin....hence the fire within....
> I feel for you and for the Kashmiri's...living under 24/7 military rule must be a nightmare ....but....
> 
> Lets just get one thing straight......The land of Kashmir belongs to India....NOT Pakistan....NOT Kashmiri's who love Pakistan......only India.....If Kashmiri's want a claim to this land....they have to be part of India and be Indians.....If they love Pakistan....then there is an occupied Pakistani Kashmir just accross the border they can go to.....
> Indian Kashmir is for Kashmiri Indians.....Pakistan Occupied Kashmir is for these traitors who wave Pakistani flags on our soil.....
> 
> Its a simple concept......I dont see an argument here.....We dont want people who dont want to live with us.....period!!!


So all of Kashmiris are just traitors?

Kashmir is not India, Kashmir is recognized as disputed territory officially by the UN. India is occupying disputed territory.

The only people that needs tobe kiced out are the Indians. This is a kick India out movement, not an independence movement. Kashmiris are already independent, they held their self-determination day today!

Right now they are just hostage victims, kidnapped at gun point.

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## Awesome

Khajur said:


> Its her who dragged Assam's name in the first place,didnt she??
> 
> Anyway no i meant no offence but we can be more honest with ourselves . And i must say that insurgents in Assam are getting more tactical support from ISI than u would ever know or admit to.
> 
> Now its doesnt matter if couple of hundered youths in Srinagar protest in front of international media when on the other hand their village counterparts throng to army centers on recruitment days.We have been dealing with such independence day eve protests for last many yrs and trustme, we can deal with them in the future too.
> 
> So i would repeat the same thing...pls dont get any idea out of such protests ...times for redrawing borders in kashmir is gone. And such a scenerio is filled with more danger than u can pathom or willing to take. But there are soft options available which both india and pakistan can certainly opt for, those would help kashmiris more than any grand strategic scheme or bigger proxy war sponsored from pakistan.


Yes but you dragged HER name into it. Twice in this thread, the 1st time I just deleted it and ignored it. But I have to speak up when one of my members is being targeted continuously. You comment on the topic not the person you're debating it.


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## Peshwa

pak-marine said:


> very silly ! u have shown the typical indian ignorant thought ,the land of kashmir belongs to the people of kashmir ,they have shown with force and they demonstrated that they want Pakistan , Indians are agreesors occupying their land and they are no body to impose their thoughts on the kashmiris , does your neighbour take decisions for your house or you do it ?? Kashmiris want pakistan so India must get out of kashmir.



Pak-Marine....whats the typical Indian ignorant thought?? Please explain.....Just coz I dont see eye to eye with you makes me ignorant??

Listen mate....Ill explain this in a very simple manner.....
My grandfather passed on his house to me.....My cousin brother says that since his father was my grandpa's favourite that he should get the house......However.....the deed by law says my name on it......You decide to fight this in court......Plus you send some goons over to try to muscle it out of me.....
I kick their sorry arses and send them packing....
Then since you couldnt get your way through force, you try to cause trouble in my immediate family saying that we are disfuctional and cannot maintain the house.....

Above is a very skeletal way of looking at the situation....

Now.....do I really need to spelll out who's who in this story??
And frankly....why would I care what my neighbor has to say in this matter....I didnt exactly get what you were trying to say there.

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## Khajur

blain2 said:


> Using your logic, Pakistan, SL and BD are also part of India. Last I checked, the UN had resolutions on the disputed nature of the state. Maybe Nehru and team messed up by letting UN declare that region a disputed state. Lets understand that there is a problem. Your denying it does not mean that this problem does not exist.



Ofcourse there is a problem .If u go by indian constitution,its say Kashmir is an intergral part of india,but we know pakistan and china still occupies some of its region.This is the official indian postition beside the pleadge to sort this out in bilateral negotiation with pakistan.

why keep going to old UN thing all the time when we have so many newer joint declarations on kashmir??


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## Awesome

See you aren't cousins or kinsman. That's the wrong analogy.

You guys came in, with guns, captured Kashmir, raped a few thousand women, committed rampant arson, mutilated people with dissenting voices, and generally spread terror throughout the valley.

Why hide behind these so called made up analogies which don't really apply here. You guys have driven ALL of KAshmir, not a few but the majority into hating you guys at a whole different level of hate.

I got an analogy. You're like the chipku friend that just won't leave.


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## dvk1982

pak-marine said:


> very silly ! u have shown the typical indian ignorant thought ,the land of kashmir belongs to the people of kashmir ,they have shown with force and they demonstrated that they want Pakistan , Indians are agreesors occupying their land and they are no body to impose their thoughts on the kashmiris , does your neighbour take decisions for your house or you do it ?? Kashmiris want pakistan so India must get out of kashmir.



ohh yeah, dare to grab it !!! other than sending mujahideens or terrorists....

Kepp it simple, even if india wants to part away with kashmir following ur argumnet., it wont happen why ? after spending billions of dollars, India can't .. its just not possible.. why doesn't that get in ur brain....
It happened once to divide a nation on the basis of religin... India won't allow it to happen again in near forseable future.. so instead of hurting oneselves, some kashmirirs are coming to reality and focusing on their own development.. rest (unemployed, uneducated- still brag abt it)


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## Awesome

Khajur said:


> Ofcourse there is a problem .If u go by indian constitution,its say Kashmir is an intergral part of india,but we know pakistan and china still occupies some of its region.This is the official indian postition beside the pleadge to sort this out in bilateral negotiation with pakistan.
> 
> why keep going to old UN thing all the time when we have so many newer joint declarations on kashmir??


It's the INDIAN constitution. Till there isn't a Kashmiri resolution saying the same it just doesn't apply. Till then the Indian constitution is nothing more than a terrorism manual much like those recovered from Al Qaeda. It encourages every Indian to incur this terror upon Kashmiris by calling Kashmir an integral part of it.


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## Peshwa

blain2 said:


> Using your logic, Pakistan, SL and BD are also part of India. Last I checked, the UN had resolutions on the disputed nature of the state. Maybe Nehru and team messed up by letting UN declare that region a disputed state. Lets understand that there is a problem. Your denying it does not mean that this problem does not exist.



No I dont think those countries should be a part of India.....they are independent proud nations.....and we recognize them as that...

As far as the disputed nature of Kashmir is concerned, I find it hardly to be disputed....the instrument of ascession....signed jointly under Bristish supervision has India's name on it.....
If Nehru's decision to call this a Disputed territory gave Pakistan the right to challenge our soverignty over the region, then that's just BS......Why should we be held hostage to a decision which was made 62 years back under completely different conditions......
And the UN resolution is non-binding from what I remember....so this is a moot point....

But I agree we have a problem on our hands.....the solution I see is to give India a chance to develop and improve the lives of Kashmiri's sincerely for at least a decade without external interference....and then maybe we can talk about plebiscite etc.......

Also....I have been to Kashmir pre-insurgency......trust me...there was not a single iota of unhappiness in Kashmiri's being part of India before Pakistan decided to start with supporting insurgency....
If you and I truly care about "Kashmiris" and not the land of Kashmir.....why cant this be an option?


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## Awesome

dvk1982 said:


> ohh yeah, dare to grab it !!! other than sending mujahideens or terrorists....
> 
> Kepp it simple, even if india wants to part away with kashmir following ur argumnet., it wont happen why ? after spending billions of dollars, India can't .. its just not possible.. why doesn't that get in ur brain....
> It happened once to divide a nation on the basis of religin... India won't allow it to happen again in near forseable future.. so instead of hurting oneselves, some kashmirirs are coming to reality and focusing on their own development.. rest (unemployed, uneducated- still brag abt it)


So thats an Indian fault. India has a spent billions to rape and brutalize Kashmiris so what now? We should go oooooooh and aaaaaaaah and wow and give up and let India off?

India should be smacked silly, it was a criminal thing to spend billions of dollars to enslave a free nation!


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## Peshwa

Asim Aquil said:


> See you aren't cousins or kinsman. That's the wrong analogy.
> 
> You guys came in, with guns, captured Kashmir, raped a few thousand women, committed rampant arson, mutilated people with dissenting voices, and generally spread terror throughout the valley.
> 
> Why hide behind these so called made up analogies which don't really apply here. You guys have driven ALL of KAshmir, not a few but the majority into hating you guys at a whole different level of hate.
> 
> I got an analogy. You're like the chipku friend that just won't leave.



We dont have to be related to Kashmiri's to be their countrymen.....This isnt a family picnic where we need to prove our bloodline to be invited.....

Asim.....as history says it.....Kashmir was signed over to us....there is no denying it....why it happened, how it happened is speculation.....but by law it belongs to us.

Now about invading.....Pakistan is the one occupying our part of Kashmir....lets just put it this way....You got yours we got ours....be thankful, we are not coming after Pakistan occupied Kashmir.....that would spell trouble for you guys.....

Also, the views and opinions of Kashmiris now doesnt count as much as that of Kashmiri's in '47.....a lot has changed since then......The current set of Kashmiris is a hybrid of brainwashing from Pakistani propoganda, life under insurgency and living in a militarized zone.....I wouldnt hold their opinion in high regard......since who wants to live a life like that???
If you think the Kashmiri's wanted freedom back then, why wasnt there support for Operation Gibraltar when Kashmiri's themselves gave up the Pak special forces???
Care to explain?

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## iPhone

HAIDER said:


> Kashmiri people hold a flag of Pakistan and shout freedom slogans during celebrations marking Pakistani Independence Day in Srinagar. -AP Photo



yup, Dawn is reporting the same thing. Also worth noting is the celebration of Pakistan's 20/20 victory in Indian occupied Kashmir.


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## Khajur

Asim Aquil said:


> It's the INDIAN constitution. Till there isn't a Kashmiri resolution saying the same it just doesn't apply. Till then the Indian constitution is nothing more than a terrorism manual much like those recovered from Al Qaeda. It encourages every Indian to incur this terror upon Kashmiris by calling Kashmir an integral part of it.



If u have every right not to accept INDIAN constitution.We as indians are obliged to honour and uphold it.

pakistan see kashmir problem in the prisim of a territorial dispute.But we feel its an internal problem and security threat to india's integrity.
No amount peaceful protest or violent attacks can deter GOI to do whats necessary to deal forces of separatism as its duty . 

And Beside that there was no sign this socalled indian terrorism until pak sponsored mujahidins appeared on the scene.


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## Awesome

Peshwa said:


> We dont have to be related to Kashmiri's to be their countrymen.....This isnt a family picnic where we need to prove our bloodline to be invited.....
> 
> Asim.....as history says it.....Kashmir was signed over to us....there is no denying it....why it happened, how it happened is speculation.....but by law it belongs to us.



The validity of that piece of paper has been disputed... 

As history has it, your PM went to the UN Signed a UN resolution many times declaring that Kashmir would be resolved through a UN administered plebiscite.



> Now about invading.....Pakistan is the one occupying our part of Kashmir....lets just put it this way....You got yours we got ours....be thankful, we are not coming after Pakistan occupied Kashmir.....that would spell trouble for you guys.....


No, we don't WANT Kashmir. We want to do what Kashmiris want. If that means Pak loses its part of Kashmir too if Kashmiris choose Independence, then so be it.

But the main thing is Kashmiris should get what they want as per the UN resolutions.



> Also, the views and opinions of Kashmiris now doesnt count as much as that of Kashmiri's in '47.....a lot has changed since then......The current set of Kashmiris is a hybrid of brainwashing from Pakistani propoganda, life under insurgency and living in a militarized zone.....I wouldnt hold their opinion in high regard......since who wants to live a life like that???


So again another instance of Indians demanding that they be rewarded for their brutality of 62 years of Kashmiri occupation. The inhabitants are still more Kashmiris than Indians will ever be.



> If you think the Kashmiri's wanted freedom back then, why wasnt there support for Operation Gibraltar when Kashmiri's themselves gave up the Pak special forces???
> Care to explain?


Why didn't you guy guys conduct a plebiscite then?

These are all Indian feel good stories. The demand for Kashmir is 62 years long. Nothing recent about it.


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## Awesome

Khajur said:


> If u have every right not to accept INDIAN constitution.We as indians are obliged to honour and uphold it.
> 
> pakistan see kashmir problem in the prisim of a territorial dispute.But we feel its an internal problem and security threat to india's integrity.
> No amount peaceful protest or violent attacks can deter GOI to do whats necessary to deal forces of separatism as its duty .
> 
> And Beside that there was no sign this socalled indian terrorism until pak sponsored mujahidins appeared on the scene.


As Kashmiris, its the doctrine from hell. It's not I who is rejecting it, its the Kashmiris. 

They are rejecting it by burning the flag that the constitution upholds!


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## Peshwa

Asim Aquil said:


> So all of Kashmiris are just traitors?
> 
> Kashmir is not India, Kashmir is recognized as disputed territory officially by the UN. India is occupying disputed territory.
> 
> The only people that needs tobe kiced out are the Indians. This is a kick India out movement, not an independence movement. Kashmiris are already independent, they held their self-determination day today!
> 
> Right now they are just hostage victims, kidnapped at gun point.



No only those who live in our country but hoist flags of our neighbors are traitors...I would die protecting an Indian Kashmiri as long as he/she respected and loved the motherland.....I dont care about these morons...I hope you get where Im going with this..

And throwing the UN resolution isnt going to swing the bout your way my friend.....Its a non-binding resolution.....and frankly outdated....besides I dont see the UN caring much about your situation either.....

And bro...us Indians have survived through many hardships over thousands of years living in the same lands that you call disputed.......
No one can or has the ability to take India out of an Indian......
I see you made a comment about us being "Chipku friend"....Ill go one step further and say.....We are leeches.....We shall stay on you....but try to remove us forcefully and we will make you hurt.....
There I gave you a new terminlology for us.....please give credit where due....LOL!!!!


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## Khajur

Asim Aquil said:


> As Kashmiris, its the doctrine from hell. It's not I who is rejecting it, its the Kashmiris.
> 
> They are rejecting it by burning the flag that the constitution upholds!



Dont consider actions of few separatists as wishes of all kashmiris.We have seen the same kashmiris come in hordes to vote and show their trust in indian union in the past elections too.

Flag burning occurs regularly certain areas in pakistan too.


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## Hyde

Khajur said:


> Guess what we not only claim but have 2/3 under our control and its not going anywhere anytime soon.
> 
> We too share common interests,language,culture and also lot of same religon (16 cr muslims) with kashmiris.
> 
> Trust me Partition time is over and lets play some new game.



well by your comments i can understand India is a ruthless country 

You don't listen the screams of Kashmiri peoples when they are willing to stay away from India? you don't really care about them right? i know the partician time is over but write down one line:

One day The Cruilty bites the dust and there will be a day for Kashmiris when they can also live peacefully  Whether Muhammad Ali Jinnah borns in Kashmir or peoples like Bhagat Singh, one day you will a change of map may be in your life or afterwards


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## trickey

HAIDER said:


> Kashmiri people hold a flag of Pakistan and shout freedom slogans during celebrations marking Pakistani Independence Day in Srinagar. -AP Photo



I'm all for celebrating Pakistan's independence. We dodged a bullet.


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## Peshwa

Asim Aquil said:


> The validity of that piece of paper has been disputed...
> *Well thats convinient for you.....trust me bro if you had this paper....you would be making the same argument......
> And please do explain...what makes this paper disputed???*
> 
> As history has it, your PM went to the UN Signed a UN resolution many times declaring that Kashmir would be resolved through a UN administered plebiscite.
> 
> *Yes agreed......Why Nehru did so....could be coz he wanted to end the violence that started even before the birth of our nation, or could be coz he didnt have the cajones.....its debatable.....
> But us Indians will not be fine with being held hostage for life because of one man's decision.....Were the Indians consulted in any of this shabang??
> 
> Also answer me honestly.....if one of your leaders tomorrow in the name of peace concedes Kashmir to India....would Pakistan and Pakistani's be fine with it? Similar is our feeling on Nehru's short sightedness!!!*
> 
> No, we don't WANT Kashmir. We want to do what Kashmiris want. If that means Pak loses its part of Kashmir too if Kashmiris choose Independence, then so be it.
> 
> 
> But the main thing is Kashmiris should get what they want as per the UN resolutions.
> 
> *Well then maybe you should show us the way and declare your part of Kashmir independent......maybe we will follow suit!!!
> 
> But seriously.....India is a democracy does not mean we will allow people to carve out nations from our lands.....too much blood, money and a lot else has been shed to keep this India one.......
> Frankly.....Kashmiri's have every right to hold India hostage until their demands for improvement in quality of life, amenities, infrastructure etc are met with.....Hell even I will join this struggle....But as far as freedom is concerned.......they can wait till eternity!!!*
> 
> So again another instance of Indians demanding that they be rewarded for their brutality of 62 years of Kashmiri occupation. The inhabitants are still more Kashmiris than Indians will ever be.
> 
> *They maybe more Kashmiri's than Indians.....hell they dont even have to identify with us....But the land they live on, the food they eat, the movies they watch, the clothes they wear....will always be Indian!!!*
> Why didn't you guy guys conduct a plebiscite then?
> 
> These are all Indian feel good stories. The demand for Kashmir is 62 years long. Nothing recent about it.



*Its too late for Plebiscite....If this happened in '47 understandable.....now the situation is very different....too much has happened......and its not the same people....Decision for Kashmir's future was the right of the people during Partition, not these current brainwashed folks......

And the demand for Kashmir is 62 years long......but only from the Pakistan side.....*


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## Abasin Turi

trickey said:


> I'm all for celebrating Pakistan's independence. We dodged a bullet.



pardon...??? pakistan's inderpendence.. ROFL..
please first get independence your self then cry for us...!


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## paritosh

the way I see it...the Kashmir dispute can now not be solved militarily...unless nuclear war is an open option.
the onus in on the Indian leadership to either buy time to convince the Kashmiris that their place is with India...or keep Kashmir and let it burn forever.
but as most would see....it's a paradox!


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## Abasin Turi

military option isn't the solution my dear neighbor, unless u don't know we are also empowered with nuclear bombs.... i wod say let them decide it themselves... i am sure they dun want to join either of us...they want a separate land now and i wod say let them have it..!


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## paritosh

Abasin Turi said:


> military option isn't the solution my dear neighbor, unless u don't know we are also empowered with nuclear bombs.... i wod say let them decide it themselves... i am sure they dun want to join either of us...they want a separate land now and i wod say let them have it..!



no need to flash/flex the nuke muscle...
see as a human I want the Kashmirs to be given exactly what they want...even if they chose to join pakistan.
but as an Indian I'd want my country(and all that is claimed) to stand undivided...
I am sure we'd have a solution sometime soon and end all hostilities...


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## asq

advaita.

You talk so lightly about kidnapped women as it was ajoke.

You talk about mossad as if they are a joke and you do not caree about them, you guys are begging mossad to help you teach few things about war, but keep dreaming to become a great power, what a way to go, asking a nation of 6 million to help a Nation of one billion how to fight.

when I mention about dirty deeds of yours, than you turn around try passing it as a joke, dude you are a guy of no scruples and bad manners.

You tal about Rawalpindi as if it was the center of Punjab, did you forget cities like Lahore, Sialkot, Lyalpur, Montgomery and most of all Nanka Sahib. Again you pick and choose just to make a silly point when compared with facts.

You dude are a strange one, who do not care about facts, only you way and other are to be made fun of.


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## A1Kaid

The Indian occupation of Kashmir can largely be solved through military action, in fact the occupation's very nature is 'military'. It is amassing hundreds-of-thousands of armed "soldiers" and force them upon Kashmir to usurp Kashmir's sovereignty.


Pakistan and China need to get damn serious and stop being misguided (some not all) thinking this issue is a diplomatic issue, it is NOT a diplomatic issue it is not several diplomatic meetings away from being solved, this is a military occupation and how you resolve a military occupation is through military action under normal circumstances of occupations. Meaning unless the occupational party and aggressor unusually withdraws from the territory. As this has not been the case for over 60 years.


This Indian occupation of Kashmir is a major factor in regional instability which is harmful to Pakistan, Kashmir, and even China. This is why both Pakistan and China must launch a massive joint-military operation against India, and Pakistani troops battle their way into Kashmir as Chinese troops battle their way into parts of India.

Doing this would be a tremendously positive step forward for all of Asia as it would condemn illegal, forceful, barbaric occupation in our region. It would punish the aggressor. It would also allow smaller nation states such as Nepal, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka to ward off Indian hegemony (depending on the circumstances).The success rate of a joint-military operations by Pakistan and China to liberate Kashmir is very high, many strategist-political and/or military would agree with me.

Some will argue No this is crazy, you cannot launch military let alone joint-military action. Truthfully, joint-military action by China and Pakistan is highly feasible, secondly yes we can launch military action to liberate Kashmir, the history of liberation is a testament to that (obviously some exceptions)...What is crazy is that we have allowed this barbaric, crude, hostile and rogue state India to continue it's rapacious occupation of Kashmir for 60+ years and still have not fully liberated Kashmir.



My solution, joint-military operation and action by Pakistan and China against India. Yes, other nations will roar, let them, for over 60+ years the Kashmiris have roared and their cries have fallen on deaf ears at the International forums.


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## Beskar

A1Kaid said:


> The Indian occupation of Kashmir can largely be solved through military action, in fact the occupation's very nature is 'military'. It is amassing hundreds-of-thousands of armed "soldiers" and force them upon Kashmir to usurp Kashmir's sovereignty.
> 
> 
> Pakistan and China need to get damn serious and stop being misguided (some not all) thinking this issue is a diplomatic issue, it is NOT a diplomatic issue it is not several diplomatic meetings away from being solved, this is a military occupation and how you resolve a military occupation is through military action under normal circumstances of occupations. Meaning unless the occupational party and aggressor unusually withdraws from the territory. As this has not been the case for over 60 years.
> 
> 
> This Indian occupation of Kashmir is a major factor in regional instability which is harmful to Pakistan, Kashmir, and even China. *This is why both Pakistan and China must launch a massive joint-military operation against India, and Pakistani troops battle their way into Kashmir as Chinese troops battle their way into parts of India.
> 
> Doing this would be a tremendously positive step forward for all of Asia as it would condemn illegal, forceful, barbaric occupation in our region. It would punish the aggressor.* It would also allow smaller nation states such as Nepal, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka to ward off Indian hegemony (depending on the circumstances).*The success rate of a joint-military operations by Pakistan and China to liberate Kashmir is very high, many strategist-political and/or military would agree with me.*
> 
> Some will argue No this is crazy, you cannot launch military let alone joint-military action. *Truthfully, joint-military action by China and Pakistan is highly feasible*, secondly yes we can launch military action to liberate Kashmir, the history of liberation is a testament to that (obviously some exceptions)...What is crazy is that we have allowed this barbaric, crude, hostile and rogue state India to continue it's rapacious occupation of Kashmir for 60+ years and still have not fully liberated Kashmir.
> 
> 
> 
> *My solution, joint-military operation and action by Pakistan and China against India. Yes, other nations will roar, let them, for over 60+ years the Kashmiris have roared and their cries have fallen on deaf ears at the International forums.*



So if I understand you correctly, you want THREE "Nuclear" armed nations to end up in a war over Kashmir? Sounds great in fiction and Hollywood but reality wouldn't let anything like that happen. 

Kashmir could have been solved easily before Pakistan and India became nuclear nations. A conventional war before the nuclear build up could have solved the Kashmir issue with as less damage as possible on both sides. Comparing that to the present, it's highly unlikely. 

I believe what you're proposing is total annihilation of Pakistan, China and India. Think of it as a chain reaction. What might start as a conventional war could end up in a complete nuclear fallout. Nobody likes loosing their territory. Specially the ones with long range Ballistic Missiles.

But then again there's nothing more we can hope for anyway. We've seen how India reacts whenever talks on resolving the Kashmir issue take place. After all, they label it as an "Integral" part of India.

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## A1Kaid

Bezerk said:


> So if I understand you correctly, you want THREE "Nuclear" armed nations to end up in a war over Kashmir? Sounds great in fiction and Hollywood but reality wouldn't let anything like that happen.
> 
> Kashmir could have been solved easily before Pakistan and India became nuclear nations. A conventional war before the nuclear build up could have solved the Kashmir issue with as less damage as possible on both sides. Comparing that to the present, it's highly unlikely.
> 
> I believe what you're proposing is total annihilation of Pakistan, China and India. Think of it as a chain reaction. What might start as a conventional war could end up in a complete nuclear fallout. Nobody likes loosing their territory. Specially the ones with long range Ballistic Missiles.
> 
> But then again there's nothing more we can hope for anyway. We've seen how India reacts whenever talks on resolving the Kashmir issue take place. After all, they label it as an "Integral" part of India.




So what is your resolution or plan to solve the Kashmir issue? With the end result of Kashmir being fully liberated, not half, not partial, but fully.


Chances of this turning to a nuclear war maybe quite limited as it will be India with the most to lose and in fact annihilated. You know if India even brings nuclear weapons into the equations imagine the immense nuclear response of China and Pakistan against India, India would become a hotbed of radioactivity, it cannot afford to take such measures... The goal of the joint-military operation is to liberate Kashmir not to necessarily destroy all of India, if that were the goal then perhaps it would be reasonable for India to use nuclear weapons, as it's life would be on the line and ability to function day to day...




> "I believe what you're proposing is total annihilation of Pakistan, China and India. Think of it as a chain reaction. What might start as a conventional war could end up in a complete nuclear fallout. *Nobody likes loosing their territory*. Specially the ones with long range Ballistic Missiles."-Bezerk



This is true that "nobody likes loosing their territory", but if India introduces Nuclear weapons into the equation, then how would it like to loose all of it's nation? See there is a bigger price to be paid on India's behalf. They can afford to loose Kashmir (geographically, politically, and militarily speaking), obviously it's not theirs...

You must understand yes this is a nasty business, yes it is bloody, yes it is tricky, yes it is very dangerous, but the success rate is on Pakistan-China side (referring to the Sino-Pakistan joint-military operation).


P.S I did not post my complete plan or analysis for privacy and secrecy reasons, simply don't want to discuss it in the public forum. I assure you there is more to the strategy then what I have publicly proposed...


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## paritosh

A1Kaid said:


> Chances of this turning to a nuclear war maybe quite limited as it will be India with the most to lose and in fact annihilated. You know if India even brings nuclear weapons into the equations imagine the immense nuclear response of China and Pakistan against India, India would become a hotbed of radioactivity, it cannot afford to take such measures... The goal of the joint-military operation is to liberate Kashmir not to necessarily destroy all of India, if that were the goal then perhaps it would be reasonable for India to use nuclear weapons, as it's life would be on the line and ability to function day to day...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is true that "nobody likes loosing their territory", but if India introduces Nuclear weapons into the equation, then how would it like to loose all of it's nation? See there is a bigger price to be paid on India's behalf. They can afford to loose Kashmir (geographically, politically, and militarily speaking), obviously it's not theirs...
> 
> You must understand yes this is a nasty business, yes it is bloody, yes it is tricky, yes it is very dangerous, but the success rate is on Pakistan-China side (referring to the Sino-Pakistan joint-military operation).



your 'joint war operation theory' seems heavily dependent on the chinese angle....which baffles me.
why would a country that is set to challenge the might of the USA...which is enjoying years of 10&#37; GDP growth...would risk a nuclear war because of Kashmir?
your chinese love affair seems to have given wings to your imagination.
and why do you refer to a nuclear war as just a military operation?
it seems you are investing into building a Nuclear-biological-chemical protection bunker in your back yard...
and how do you suppose we'd _"bring the nuclear weapons into equation"_?
by wiping pakistan off the face of the planet...and so'd you...
but chances are that we'd survive your first strike and strike back with fury...and you can't take the nuke sub out of the equation now.


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## A1Kaid

paritosh said:


> your 'joint war operation theory' seems heavily dependent on the chinese angle....which baffles me.
> why would a country that is set to challenge the might of the USA...which is enjoying years of 10% GDP growth...would risk a nuclear war because of Kashmir?
> your chinese love affair seems to have given wings to your imagination.
> and why do you refer to a nuclear war as just a military operation?
> it seems you are investing into building a Nuclear-biological-chemical protection bunker in your back yard...
> and how do you suppose we'd _"bring the nuclear weapons into equation"_?
> by wiping pakistan off the face of the planet...and so'd you...
> but chances are that we'd survive your first strike and strike back with fury...and you can't take the nuke sub out of the equation now.



Okay well let's just talk and have diplomacy. This is what you want right?   

Hopefully this will solve the problem.


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## A1Kaid

If I believed diplomacy and negotiating with India could provide real solutions to resolving the Kashmiri dispute on the basis of what the majority of Kashmiris desire, then absolutely I would take that route absolutely I would encourage that route.


But after 60 long years with, failures, with interruptions, with growing mistrust, after 60 years of murder, looting, massacre, rape, home invasions, and genocide in Kashmir...What am I left to believe?

"If YOU had left us with a margin of hope. We might have been a party to some settlement."

-Foreign Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, UN Security Council, Dec. 1971.

Source: w w w.youtube.com/watch?v=qYHUJBRRnc4


Do you know there were many reports that militancy in Kashmir had been greatly reduced, so I can say Pakistan has tried it's best to take peaceful actions and peaceful routes. But where, has it led us? Has India shown any signs of compromise? Has it shown any sign of seriousness on considering Kashmir an actual "dispute territory" and is it truly working with Pakistan to resolve the issue?


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## SinoIndusFriendship

It is foolish to go to war just for Kashmir, just as it is foolish to go to war just for NE region. All of this lies with India's fantasy of "Ahkand Bharat", so the solution is to awaken Indian from her illusory dreams.

Even then India "wants something for nothing", i.e. for India to give up part of Kashmir and part of NE region, she needs to get something in return. Note that I said "part" of Kashmir and "part" of NE region, as India will be very stubborn to return all illegal land. China is offering land next to Kashmir in a land-swap. 

Regarding Pakistan, Kashmir can be divided based on "predominately muslim areas". Also knowing that bharat's end goal is to create a "Greater India", by offering ASEAN-like unity (with possibility leading to future unification). This will make everyone in Asia happy!


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## paritosh

A1Kaid said:


> If I believed diplomacy and negotiating with India could provide real solutions to resolving the Kashmiri dispute on the basis of what the majority of Kashmiris desire, then absolutely I would take that route absolutely I would encourage that route.
> 
> 
> But after 60 long years with, failures, with interruptions, with growing mistrust, after 60 years of murder, looting, massacre, rape, home invasions, and genocide in Kashmir...What am I left to believe?
> 
> "If YOU had left us with a margin of hope. We might have been a party to some settlement."
> 
> -Foreign Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, UN Security Council, Dec. 1971.
> 
> Source: w w w.youtube.com/watch?v=qYHUJBRRnc4
> 
> 
> Do you know there were many reports that militancy in Kashmir had been greatly reduced, so I can say Pakistan has tried it's best to take peaceful actions and peaceful routes. But where, has it led us? Has India shown any signs of compromise? Has it shown any sign of seriousness on considering Kashmir an actual "dispute territory" and is it truly working with Pakistan to resolve the issue?



see you and I don't know how the policy makers of our countries work and what goes inside their minds...all that I am saying is that your saying that a nuke war would benefit 'x' country and vaporize 'y' country is not right.
would it be worth a *billion and a half lives*?
we surely don't hate each other that much.


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## Awesome

Peshwa said:


> *Its too late for Plebiscite....If this happened in '47 understandable.....now the situation is very different....too much has happened......and its not the same people....Decision for Kashmir's future was the right of the people during Partition, not these current brainwashed folks......
> 
> And the demand for Kashmir is 62 years long......but only from the Pakistan side.....*


See you're at fault for not holding the plebiscite for 62 years, you want to be rewarded for that? Heck heads should roll for this crime.

Then the plebiscite is for Kashmir, there was no expiration date on the plebiscite. There's no statute of limitations that has expired. One thing's for sure, your statement is a testament that if given the chance to vote, Kashmir would boot out India. That is what makes Indians wimp and cower over the very thought of plebiscite.


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## A1Kaid

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> *It is foolish to go to war just for Kashmir, just as it is foolish to go to war just for NE region.* All of this lies with India's fantasy of "Ahkand Bharat", so the solution is to awaken Indian from her illusory dreams.
> 
> Even then India "wants something for nothing", i.e. for India to give up part of Kashmir and part of NE region, she needs to get something in return. Note that I said "part" of Kashmir and "part" of NE region, as India will be very stubborn to return all illegal land. China is offering land next to Kashmir in a land-swap.
> 
> Regarding Pakistan, Kashmir can be divided based on "predominately muslim areas". Also knowing that bharat's end goal is to create a "Greater India", by offering ASEAN-like unity (with possibility leading to future unification). This will make everyone in Asia happy!






> "It is foolish to go to war just for Kashmir, just as it is foolish to go to war just for NE region."-SinoIndusFriendship



I strongly disagree, Kashmir as many Kashmiris would agree is apart of Pakistan (some want complete independence or semi-autonomy). So Pakistan is fighting for it's homeland, Pakistan is resisting an occupation on it's homeland, against Indian hegemony and imperialism which has for 60 years infringed on both Kashmiris and in a larger context Pakistan.


Would China not fight for Manchuria? Would China not fight or resist occupation and military aggression against Hong Kong? Would China simply allow it's encirclement to go unchecked and not fight back? (Rhetorical questions) 

Sure maybe Gen. Muhammad bin Qasim should not have waged Jihad in the region...My friends this struggle for Kashmir is a continuation of our great Islamic legacy. Besides that, it is one of the most horrific occupations and humanitarian crisis in the World, since the 'Warsaw ghetto'.

So it is absolutely not foolish to go to war for Kashmir, in fact we have done so at least 2 times (1947 &1965), not to mention other armed conflicts...




> "Regarding Pakistan, Kashmir can be divided based on "predominately muslim areas"."



No, you are not allowed to divide up the Kashmiri homeland, this will not solve the problem. In fact, it would generate more problems. It would be difficult to govern, conduct trade and business, import and export, and so on because it would make Kashmir a dis integral body of land, kind of like what Palestine is today "Gaza and West Bank"...


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## paritosh

Asim Aquil said:


> See you're at fault for not holding the plebiscite for 62 years, you want to be rewarded for that? Heck heads should roll for this crime.
> 
> Then the plebiscite is for Kashmir, there was no expiration date on the plebiscite. There's no statute of limitations that has expired. One thing's for sure, your statement is a testament that if given the chance to vote, Kashmir would boot out India. That is what makes Indians wimp and cower over the very thought of plebiscite.



wasn't Pakistan supposed to demilitarize the PAK region for the plebiscite to be held?
under more than one clause...it is mentioned that India was supposed to supervise the plebiscite with Pakistan creating conditions for a fair plebiscite to be held by removing it's armed personnel for PAK.1965...showed your impatience....and made a manageable dispute difficult....kashmir henceforth became rightly or wrongly a part of the "desh ki dharti" to be protected by sweat and blood.


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## Beskar

A1Kaid said:


> So what is your resolution or plan to solve the Kashmir issue? With the end result of Kashmir being fully liberated, not half, not partial, but fully.



Pakistan, China and India should first sit on the negotiation table together in order to achieve anything in the long run for the future of Kashmir. We must first agree on a mutual understanding of the Kashmir issue before we can even think of a military escalation. 

After that, we must agree to a fully independent and transparent vote process in Kashmir which would make sure that the Kashmiri people are given a right to vote without the influence of the heavily stationed Indian Army in the region. Such a process could be observed by civil organizations from all three concerned parties (Pakistan, China and India) as all of them share territory with the disputed region.



> Chances of this turning to a nuclear war maybe quite limited as it will be India with the most to lose and in fact annihilated. You know if India even brings nuclear weapons into the equations imagine the immense nuclear response of China and Pakistan against India, India would become a hotbed of radioactivity, it cannot afford to take such measures... The goal of the joint-military operation is to liberate Kashmir not to necessarily destroy all of India, if that were the goal then perhaps it would be reasonable for India to use nuclear weapons, as it's life would be on the line and ability to function day to day...



On paper, it sounds like a feasible solution. But in reality, In order to conduct a join-operation such as the one you propose, Pakistan must first eliminate all the terrorist organizations running wild in the FATA belt and the Baluchistan province. Pakistan Military is based on a defensive doctrine and in order to aim for an offensive, we must first ensure that terrorist elements threatening the unity of our country are taken care of. You cannot afford to order a "Conventional" full scale military operation against an enemy thrice as large, without the full strength of your army. 

Nukes aside, what if you aren't able to successfully achieve your objective in time and the terrorists outfits in your North-Western province and Baluchistan take the entire state head on? What if there's a possibility that an alliance is formed by your enemies while you're busy at a new front? 




> This is true that "nobody likes loosing their territory", but if India introduces Nuclear weapons into the equation, then how would it like to loose all of it's nation? See there is a bigger price to be paid on India's behalf. They can afford to loose Kashmir (geographically, politically, and militarily speaking), obviously it's not theirs...



The way times are moving forward, pretty soon India would have a reliable second-strike capability inducted in its military. The Nuclear Submarines. You annihilate India, and India will throw everything in her reserve at you using alternate methods. At that point, it wouldn't matter if we've annihilated India, but that India was successful enough in wiping off one of our own cities. 



> You must understand yes this is a nasty business, yes it is bloody, yes it is tricky, yes it is very dangerous, but the success rate is on Pakistan-China side (referring to the Sino-Pakistan joint-military operation).



I completely understand what you're proposing but in my opinion, such an operation is highly unlikely due to the reasons I've listed above.



> P.S I did not post my complete plan or analysis for privacy and secrecy reasons, simply don't want to discuss it in the public forum. I assure you there is more to the strategy then what I have publicly proposed...



Here's what an ISI official once told me about us as individuals (The Awaam, the People) acting like experts and armchair generals...

"If YOU believe that there's an UNDISPUTED solution to a national or global problem, and think that it will work for ALL the right reasons, then be sure that at the very top of the Governments and the decision makers, sit the most intelligent, cunning, brave and the most educated of the lot, who've probably thought about your solution already and probably discarded it a hundred times."

In short, China is emerging as a super power and until she reaches that status, she will not conduct such an operation for the sake of Kashmir, Pakistan or anyone else for that matter because it would ultimately eliminate her rise as a super power. And without China's help, Pakistan cannot risk putting its military and national security on the line against a much larger enemy in size. You're not talking small time skirmishes here, you're talking about a full scale conventional war which has all the reasons to turn nuclear in the end.

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## Awesome

paritosh said:


> wasn't Pakistan supposed to demilitarize the PAK region for the plebiscite to be held?
> under more than one clause...it is mentioned that India was supposed to supervise the plebiscite with Pakistan creating conditions for a fair plebiscite to be held by removing it's armed personnel for PAK.1965...showed your impatience....and made a manageable dispute difficult....kashmir henceforth became rightly or wrongly a part of the "desh ki dharti" to be protected by sweat and blood.


Again with this purported lie. It feels like all of India comes pre-programmed with this.

The demilitarization is from both sides, Pakistan agreed India didn't.



> UNSC resolution 47 of 21 April 1948 called for "the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani national not normally resident therein" and the reduction of Indian forces in the state to "minimum strength required" in order to facilitate a plebiscite. The Security Council modified its decision by resolution 98 of 23 December 1952, which provided for synchronized reduction of troops on both sides of the ceasefire line to 3000 to 6000 on the Pakistani side and 12000 to 18000 on the Indian side. Pakistan agreed while India did not. India's reluctance to demilitarize the State of Jammu and Kashmir was confirmed by Sir Owen Dixon, Head of the UN Commission for India and Pakistan (UNCIP), in his report to the Security Council on 15 September 1950. He sated that, "in the end I became convinced that India's agreement would never be obtained to demilitarization in any form or to provisions governing the period of plebiscite of an such character, as would in my opinion, permit the plebiscite being conducted in conditions sufficiently guarding against intimidation and other forms of influence and abuse by which freedom and fairness of the plebiscite might be imperiled".


Azad Jammu and Kashmir - Kashmir in United Nations





> Urges the Governments of India and Pakistan to enter into immediate negotiations under the auspices of the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan in order to reach agreement on the specific number of forces to remain on each side of the cease-fire line at the end of the period of demilitarisation,* this number to be between 3,000 and 6,000 armed forces remaining on the Pakistan side of the cease-fire line and between 12,000 and 18,000 armed forces remaining on the India side of the cease-line*, as suggested by the United Nations Representative in his proposals of 16 July
> 1952, such specific numbers to be arrived at bearing in mind the principles or criteria contained in paragraph 7 of the United Nations Representative's proposal of 4 September 1952;



Kashmir, UN Security Council Resolution 98

We agreed to 3 times more men on your side. It is clear that an administrative force was to be kept in Kashmir according to the UN resolutions. So there is nothing that Pakistan violated, India and only India is responsible for the subjugation of freedom in Kashmir.


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## A1Kaid

Bezerk said:


> *Pakistan, China and India should first sit on the negotiation table together in order to achieve anything in the long run for the future of Kashmir. We must first agree on a mutual understanding of the Kashmir issue before we can even think of a military escalation.
> 
> After that, we must agree to a fully independent and transparent vote process in Kashmir which would make sure that the Kashmiri people are given a right to vote without the influence of the heavily stationed Indian Army in the region. Such a process could be observed by civil organizations from all three concerned parties (Pakistan, China and India) as all of them share territory with the disputed region.
> *
> 
> 
> On paper, it sounds like a feasible solution. But in reality, In order to conduct a join-operation such as the one you propose, Pakistan must first eliminate all the terrorist organizations running wild in the FATA belt and the Baluchistan province. Pakistan Military is based on a defensive doctrine and in order to aim for an offensive, we must first ensure that terrorist elements threatening the unity of our country are taken care of. You cannot afford to order a "Conventional" full scale military operation against an enemy thrice as large, without the full strength of your army.
> 
> Nukes aside, what if you aren't able to successfully achieve your objective in time and the terrorists outfits in your North-Western province and Baluchistan take the entire state head on? What if there's a possibility that an alliance is formed by your enemies while you're busy at a new front?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The way times are moving forward, pretty soon India would have a reliable second-strike capability inducted in its military. The Nuclear Submarines. You annihilate India, and India will throw everything in her reserve at you using alternate methods. At that point, it wouldn't matter if we've annihilated India, but that India was successful enough in wiping off one of our own cities.
> 
> 
> 
> I completely understand what you're proposing but in my opinion, such an operation is highly unlikely due to the reasons I've listed above.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what an ISI official once told me about us as individuals (The Awaam, the People) acting like experts and armchair generals...
> 
> "If YOU believe that there's an UNDISPUTED solution to a national or global problem, and think that it will work for ALL the right reasons, then be sure that at the very top of the Governments and the decision makers, sit the most intelligent, cunning, brave and the most educated of the lot, who've probably thought about your solution already and probably discarded it a hundred times."
> 
> In short, China is emerging as a super power and until she reaches that status, she will not conduct such an operation for the sake of Kashmir, Pakistan or anyone else for that matter because it would ultimately eliminate her rise as a super power. And without China's help, Pakistan cannot risk putting its military and national security on the line against a much larger enemy in size. You're not talking small time skirmishes here, you're talking about a full scale conventional war which has all the reasons to turn nuclear in the end.








> Pakistan, China and India should first sit on the negotiation table together in order to achieve anything in the long run for the future of Kashmir. We must first agree on a mutual understanding of the Kashmir issue before we can even think of a military escalation.
> 
> After that, we must agree to a fully independent and transparent vote process in Kashmir which would make sure that the Kashmiri people are given a right to vote without the influence of the heavily stationed Indian Army in the region. Such a process could be observed by civil organizations from all three concerned parties (Pakistan, China and India) as all of them share territory with the disputed region.




Yes well some in China are saying (publicly) it should be negotiated "bi-laterally" by Pakistan and India. Also Pakistan, has tried many times to negotiate with India, India doesn't even consider "Kashmir" a 'disputed territory' so they don't really see it as a legitimate occupation issue...

Also I think your resolution is naive, unless a miraculous Indian administration comes along that will finally fulfill the Plebiscite Indian PM Nehru promised in 1947-48. India would never agree to a plebiscite as it knows what the outcome would be, they are not interested in 'real forms' of democracy in what is really a disputed territory. But let me say this, one thing that can never be disputed by anyone is that Kashmir belongs to the Kashmiris.




> On paper, it sounds like a feasible solution. But in reality, In order to conduct a join-operation such as the one you propose, Pakistan must first eliminate all the *terrorist organizations running wild in the FATA belt and the Baluchistan province. *Pakistan Military is based on a defensive doctrine and in order to aim for an offensive, we must first ensure that terrorist elements threatening the unity of our country are taken care of. You cannot afford to order a "Conventional" full scale military operation against an enemy thrice as large, without the full strength of your army.



"terrorist organizations running wild in the FATA belt and the Baluchistan province."-Bezerk

Yes and those same terrorist are being funded and supported by foreign entities hostile to Pakistan, one of those entities happens to be a country occupying Kashmir. So, let's kill two birds with one stone 

Besides, from what I understand the military operations in FATA belt are very successful and are progressing positively so that issue will be resolved by Pakistani military, InshAllah.




> "Nukes aside, what if you aren't able to successfully achieve your objective in time and the terrorists outfits in your North-Western province and Baluchistan take the entire state head on? What if there's a possibility that an alliance is formed by your enemies while you're busy at a new front? "



These are legitimate worries, so I ask you where are these terrorist getting there funding from? Who are these terrorist agents working for? Where do they get their support from? Our own IA has answered this question quite clearly and clearly the enemy is meddling both in our region and territories.




> "In short, China is emerging as a super power and until she reaches that status, she will not conduct such an operation for the sake of Kashmir, Pakistan or anyone else for that matter because it would ultimately eliminate her rise as a super power."



Good point. There are other means of support China can certainly provide. This is a public forum so that is all I will say about this point...


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## DesiGuy

SSGPA1 said:


> For how long the educated, intelligent and open minded Indians are going to deny facts??
> 
> Please open your eyes and see what Kashimiris want.





If India gave up Kashmir, than do you think Pakistan will not interfere in that Kashmir??

i don't think so.


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## SinoIndusFriendship

A1Kaid said:


> ......
> 
> Would China not fight for Manchuria? Would China not fight or resist occupation and military aggression against Hong Kong? Would China simply allow it's encirclement to go unchecked and not fight back? (Rhetorical questions)
> 
> .........



Russia already illegally occupies Chinese Siberia and large swaths of Manchuria (which they call Vladistok).

Russia in last 100 years expanded eastwards and through military wars fought with China and took Mongolia, Siberia and Manchuria --- all of these areas are much, MUCH larger than entire Pakistan. Russia's population is small so returning stolen land is not a "big deal" for them.

But you gotta think big picture, for majority benefit. You see Soviet Russia built these "monotowns" from the stolen land, based on 1 or 2 key industries (such is mining, steel, coal) and they have not built a sustainable nor dynamic economy -- nor have they "integrated" the local Chinese/Mongolian/Inuit community. 

China (actually it's just me talking) would like to re-integrate these land peacefully while maintaining partnership with Russia. Those Russians living in those area would be given Chinese citizenship if they choose to, or they can choose to relocate to Russia -- they will be compensated FAIRLY for their house/land so they can buy one in Russia (or anywhere on planet).  This is only my suggestion. Furthermore, China is better capable of utilizing the land and the people who choose to stay will have better lives (and their decendents as well). China has proven this with her 56 ethnic groups --- In fact China was ALWAYS "multi-ethnic" since it's founding 10,000+ years ago (the Dragon is the symbol of different tribes/clans/peoples joining as one!).

All of this can be achieved without war, albeit it will happen NATURALLY and SLOWLY. Russia returns to her natural boundaries and China regains her natural boundaries. 

The only source of resistance is GREED. People want to keep the land REGARDLESS THAT IT WAS STOLEN THROUGH WAR. Another fine example is US-Mexico. Nearly half of Mexico was taken by USA through a series of wars in last several hundred years. But now Mexicans are reclaiming their land peacefully. The "illegal Mexicans" you hear about are not really "illegal", they are only living in THEIR land. 

Bottom line is GREED. If we learn to SHARE then all this fighting won't be necessary. But first we must accept other races as the same 'class' of human beings as us --- but this has proven over EONS to be easier said than done.

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## Halaku Khan

Sigh ... back to this old issue. 200 people waving Pakistani flags doesn't prove anything. There will always be Talibanized elements, even in J&K. 

Plebiscite in Indian Kashmir cannot be held as a matter of principle. Separatists are welcome to contest elections to demonstrate their support. If they win elections that would be a great moral victory for them. They always have the option of not taking the oath.

The contrast is really striking - on the Indian side, India *wants* separatists to contest elections but they don't have the guts, being worried about their hollowness being exposed. On the other hand, on the Pakistani side, parties like JKLF *want* to participate in elections but Pakistan does not allow them to do so, because they refuse to support merger with Pakistan.

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## Halaku Khan

This article by Asif Ezdi seems to reflect current thinking of Pakistani establishment. Apparently the idea is to go back on the Musharraf-Manmohan agreement and escalate armed action. This is borne out by facts on the ground - there has been a sharp escalation in infiltration, with many terrorists being shot on the LoC.

If the Pakistani establishment adopts this policy, it would be a serious misjudgment. India will have no choice but to crush terrorism by force, and even the current social climate in Kashmir does not support violent separatism.



> *Rebuilding national consensus on Kashmir*
> Rebuilding national consensus on Kashmir
> Saturday, August 15, 2009
> Asif Ezdi
> 
> The writer is a former member of the Foreign Service
> 
> Pakistans Kashmir policy rested for more than five decades (1948-2003) on a national consensus. The essence of this consensus was that a Kashmir settlement must be based on the right of self-determination of the Kashmiri people, to be exercised in accordance with UN Security Council resolutions. While maintaining this position of principle, Pakistani governments have also been willing to consider a partition of the state in which India would keep Ladakh, the Vale of Kashmir would join Pakistan and Jammu would be divided.
> 
> This consensus was broken by Musharraf in several steps he took between 2003 and 2007. For the first time, a Pakistani government publicly gave up the demand for a plebiscite under UN resolutions and proposed a settlement based on the current territorial status quo, leaving not only Ladakh but also the Vale and the Muslim-majority areas of Jammu in Indian hands.
> 
> Musharrafs retreat from Pakistans traditional stand on Kashmir started shortly before the Islamabad Summit of January 2004. In an interview with Reuters (December 2003), Musharraf said: We are for United Nations Security Council Resolutions. However, now we have left that aside. At the Summit, Vajpayee agreed to the resumption of the composite dialogue in return for Musharrafs assurance that he would not permit any territory under Pakistans control to be used to support terrorism. In backchannel talks on Kashmir which started after the Summit, Musharraf also virtually agreed to make the LoC a permanent border. This was the essence of the settlement that would have been signed during a visit of the Indian prime minister to Pakistan. That visit could not take place because of the political turmoil in Pakistan following the dismissal of the Chief Justice in March 2007.
> 
> As explained by Musharraf in an interview with an Indian TV channel in July, the four elements of the settlement were: (a) making the LoC irrelevanti.e., converting it into a soft border; (b) demilitarisation of the LoC and withdrawal of the Indian military from two or three cities like Srinagar and Baramulla; (c) self-government for the two parts of the state divided by the LoC; and (d) a joint body comprising Kashmiris from both sides, Pakistan and India, to oversee whatever was not devolved to the people of Kashmir.
> 
> While Musharraf backtracked from Pakistans long-held stand, India has maintained a consistent position. Since the ouster of Sheikh Abdullah from power in 1953, if not even earlier, Delhi has unofficially been agreeable to a partitioning of the state along the ceasefire line, with minor adjustments. Nehru suggested such a settlement in a meeting with US Secretary of State Dulles in May 1953. This proposal was also made by India in the Bhutto-Swaran Singh talks held in 1962-63 but was flatly rejected by Pakistan. This was at a time when Indias hold on the state seemed to be largely unchallenged by the local population. Four decades later, and in the middle of a sustained popular uprising against Indian occupation which more than half-a-million Indian troops have been unable to quell, Musharraf agreed to a settlement on these lines.
> 
> Having missed the chance to clinch this deal with Musharraf, Manmohan Singh took steps last year before the Bombay attacks to reconnect the backchannel with the new government, as Steve Coll wrote in an article in the New Yorker magazine (March 2, 2009). According to this article, Manmohan Singh was concerned, in particular, about whether Zardari would be willing to continue the talks and whether Pakistan would stand by the non-paper worked out in these talks, or insist on renegotiating. Privately, in discussions with Indian officials, Zardari affirmed his interest in picking up the backchannel negotiations, the magazine wrote.
> 
> The article also said that Indias response to the Bombay attacks was restrained because Singh, and at least some of his civilian counterparts in Pakistan, hope to find their way back to the non-paper. Were it not for these talks, Coll wrote, the Indian reaction might not have been so measured. Indias keenness to return to the Kashmir non-paper also explains why Manmohan Singh agreed with Gilani at Sharm el-Sheikh last month to delink the terrorism issue from a resumption of the composite dialogue.
> 
> Maleeha Lodhi wrote in an artcile in this newspaper (Aug 4) that Kashmir is at a crossroads. Actually it is not Kashmir but Pakistans Kashmir policy that is at a crossroads. The Kashmiris have made their choice. They want azadi. It is the Pakistani government which has to decide whether it will support their aspirations or make a deal with Delhi that perpetuates their enslavement by India.
> 
> Bruce Riedel, who led a review of the US AfPak strategy for Obama, was recently quoted by Reuters as saying that western diplomats (read United States) would like to see Pakistan and India getting back into the position they reached in 2007. He said the non-paper prepared in backchannel talks was a good deal for Pakistan, for India, for the Kashmiris.
> 
> Our policymakers do not tire of calling for an American role in a resolution of the Kashmir issue, but oddly they do not seem to realise that any American involvement will be aimed at a settlement on the basis of the territorial status quo, as Riedel indicated. If we are prepared for such a solution, we do not need American involvement, because this is what the Indians themselves are offering. If we want another solution, we should not be inviting Washington to play a role.
> 
> The present government in Pakistan has not yet made clear whether it intends to take forward the process started by Musharraf through the backchannel. The only thing that we know is that the government would like to resume the composite dialogue with India and would like these talks to cover a resolution of the Kashmir issue. But we do not know what kind of a settlement the government is hoping to achieve. This lack of clarity is the result of confused thinking  or lack of thinking  at the senior levels of government. As a result, our Kashmir policy today is aimless, directionless and muddled.
> 
> Musharraf departed from the old national consensus on Kashmir when he proposed a settlement that would legitimise the present territorial status quo. Even worse, he also betrayed the Kashmir freedom movement, and did so at a time when a new generation of Kashmiris tempered by two decades of resistance to the brutalities of the occupation forces has taken charge. This generation is more determined than any earlier one to wrest azadi from the Indian occupiers. The more India uses force to suppress it, the stronger the freedom movement will become. India can delay azadi for some time, maybe by a couple of decades or a little longer, but cannot stop it.
> 
> This is the ground reality on which a new national consensus on Kashmir must be founded. Holding a dialogue with India on Kashmir before forging this consensus would be like putting the cart before the horse. First and foremost, there must be a rejection of the deal made by Musharraf in backchannel talks with India. Since the present international environment is not favourable for a just settlement of Kashmir, our aim in a resumed composite dialogue should be the maximum possible alleviation of the conditions of Indian occupation in order to allow the Kashmiris to carry on their movement peacefully.
> 
> As a signal of our support to the Kashmiri people, we should also revert to our earlier policy, which Musharraf reversed in 2004, of providing moral, political and diplomatic support to their struggle for self-determination and of mobilising international opinion against Indian atrocities and human-rights violations. The prime minister should start by raising these issues forcefully in an address to the UN General Assembly at its next session in September. (Since Zardari himself would not like to miss the opportunity of a junket to New York  his last visit was as many as three months ago in May  Gilani will have to advise him, in exercise of his constitutional powers, against undertaking the visit).
> 
> Email: asifezdi@yahoo.com


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## Halaku Khan

IMHO, the Musharraf-Manmohan formula can work - maximum autonomy for both sides (including northern areas), progressive reduction in troop levels after violence reduction, open borders (people should be allowed to cross freely with biometric smart cards), and consultative arrangements for issues of common concern (such as river water).

Currently, Indian side feels talks should not restart without action on 26/11 terrorists, whereas Pakistani establishment apparently does not want to act against 26/11 terrorists and wants to go back on the Musharraf-Manmohan formula.


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## Khajur

India can give full autonomy under indian constitution protecting civil liberties, to the vally and *** (theoritically) as promised to Shiek Abdulla earlier and and also take out Jammu and Laddak regions as new state and a union territory respectively.I were the pm....i would gone for this plan.


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## graphican

Musharaf not only lost two worlds himself but he made millions of People suffer in Pakistan and Kashmir because of his "wise" and "patriotic" policies. What kind of soldier was he who gave up life of Hundred Thousand sacrifices of Kashmirs and Pakistan's stance in the United Nations? Who did Musharraf fight for? for Kashmirs? for Pakistanis? The dumb head went for Karghil and upon return lied down aganst Indians to "do" him and rest of the country under his rule?

Its time for us to start supporting Kashmirs again. They are Pakistani People, the Muslim Blood that is being crushed under Military Shoes. Who is stopping us claiming for what belongs to us? The "Night" has shed, Musharaf is history.. I request the present Government to go back to the stance that BB and Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto Had. Zulfiqar Ali, the sword of Hazrat Ali and look what "followers" of him we have now.. people who call Indian attempt to invade border as "Technical Mistake" and have owned Qassab who's nationality is still not proven.. Shame on you Zardari.. Shame on you Yusuf Raza Gillani and Shame us including me who has is sitting in home and letting this bull-**** government hold on to the seat!


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## Hyde

*Kashmiris observe Black Day on Indias I-Day
​*
SRINAGAR: Kashmiris are observing Indias Independence Day as Black Day, today, featured with complete strike in occupied Kashmir.

The major cities of the valley are giving a deserted look with the closure of all business establishments and traffic off the roads.

The administration of held Valley put Hurriyat leaders Ali Gilani, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Abdul Ghani Butt, Yaseen Malik and others under house arrest.

The call for the strike has been given by the Chairman of All Parties Hurriyet Conference, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and illegally detained senior Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Gilani.

Kashmiris are observing the Black Day on Indias Independence Day to convey to the world that the people of Kashmir have been deprived of their birthright to self-determination for the last sixty-three years. They will hoist black flags on the rooftops and remain indoors to mark the day.

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## Hyde

*India police martyr four innocent Kashmiris​*
Updated at: 1711 PST, Saturday, August 15, 2009
SRINAGAR: The Kashmiris on both sides of Line of Control Saturday observed India's Independence Day as black day to register severe indignation and hatred against India and to protest against the escalation of human rights abuses by the Indian troops against the innocent Kashmiris struggling for their right to self-determination in the held valley.

Indian police under state terrorism martyred four innocent Kashmiri youth in Reasi district in occupied Kashmir. According to Kashmir Media Service, troops of 59 Rashtriya Rifles during siege and search operation killed Shabir Ahmed Chopan, Nazir Ahmed Sheikh, Ghulam Mohi-ud-Din and Abdul Rashid at Kund in Mahore area of the district.

Call for observing the Indian Independence Day as black day coupled with complete strike was given by All Parties Hurriyat Conference and other freedom and human rights-loving organization and supported by AJK government to apprise the international community of their traditional hatred against India and the importance of early peaceful settlement of the Kashmir dispute besides to urge the external world to fulfill its due responsibilities.

Anti-India rallies followed by protest processions in all small and major cities and towns in Indian held Jammu Kashmir were the hall mark of the day. All shops and business centers remained closed and traffic stayed off the roads to observe the Indian Independence Day as Black day. Participants of the protest rallies wore black bands around their arms and heads to express hatred against India. Black flags were hoisted atop the buildings by the protesting Kashmiris at both sides of the LoC.

In Azad Jammu and Kashmir, anti-India rallies were staged and processions brought out in all small and major cities including AJK's capital city of Muzaffarabad and all other eight district headquarters of Mirpur, Kotli, Bagh, Bhimbher, Palandri, Rawalakot, Havaili and Neelam valley by the people belonging to all walks of life to reiterate severe hatred against the Indian imperialism.

Addressing the rallies, the speakers highlighted Kashmiris continued feelings of severe hatred against India besides vehemently condemning the continued forcible Indian occupation over bulk of Jammu & Kashmir state at the might of her seven and half lakh military and paramilitary forces.

They called upon the world community and international organizations of human rights including United Nations to perform their due role to get the Kashmir issue resolved without further loss of time. They said that supreme sacrifices of Kashmiri martyrs will soon bear fruits.

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## SSGPA1

Halaku Khan said:


> Sigh ... back to this old issue. 200 people waving Pakistani flags doesn't prove anything. There will always be Talibanized elements, even in J&K.



Absolute nonsense that Taliban elements are responsible or there is limited support!

*Read this below from Indian media:*

SAMAY LIVE:

Separatists strike call paralyses normal life in Kashmir

Published: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 at 17:33 ISTF 

*Normal life remained crippled today across Kashmir valley in view of strike called by separatists.*

*Most of the shops and business establishments remained closed and transport off the roads in Srinagar and all major towns of the valley, in response to strike call given by separatists and militant outfits.*

Separatists including moderate faction of Hurriyat headed by Mirwaiz Umer Farooq called for strike as *they want resolution of the Kashmir issue through peaceful talks.*
Authorities had made tight security throughout the valley to ensure that the day passed off peacefully.

In Srinagar, the main road leading to the Bakshi stadium the venue of the Independence Day function was closed.

Separatists strike call paralyses normal life in Kashmir :: Samay Live


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## sensenreason

Jana said:


> The presence of thousands of Indian forces with latest equipment, the extra judicial killings of Kashmiris, the raps of Kashmiri women, the killing of Kashmiri youth in fake encounters. and so on.
> 
> After so many decades still India failed to curb voices of freedom rather its not freedom its strugle for getting back their own land which was occupied by India.



Claim you made was that Balochistan wants to stay with Pakistan...it was'nt wrt Kashmir....so in other words how do you 'know' that they want to stay with Pakistan.


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## SSGPA1

sensenreason said:


> Claim you made was that Balochistan wants to stay with Pakistan...it was'nt wrt Kashmir....so in other words how do you 'know' that they want to stay with Pakistan.



Why don't you wake up and smell the coffee ... you don't even know the issue of Balochistan and want to compare Kashmir and Balochistan!

Balochistan has always voted for Pakistan and it is an undisputed territory. Kashmir is a disputed part as accepted by the UN, Pakistan, India and most importantly by the Kashmiris!!

India will need to sit down and resolve Kasshmir with Pakistan!!!


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## SSGPA1

Peshwa said:


> My friend...if there was no India.....what the hell was Christopher Columbus doing trying to find "India"....and why are the natives of Americas called "Red Indians"????
> Care to explain? The way I see it....there was no Pakistan before '47, there has always been an India.....and will live forever.....
> In fact no one would have known what Pakistan even is if it wasnt for Afghanistan and the soviet occupation.....
> 
> Please dont throw non-sensical arguments....
> Even if there was no one ruler ruling India, the lands from the Indus to the Brahmaputra and from the Himalayas to the Kanyakumari was called India......
> With your theory, half of Europe should be called Germany because the germans occupied them during WW2
> Another way to look at it is....why did the British choose the name Bristish India, if India never existed???
> 
> Its one thing to fight over Kashmir....now you want us to give up our history as well??? Thats plain bonkers!!!



This whole region was always called 'Hindustan' ... India is an English word used by the people who didn't know crap about this region so feel free to go by their history.

Now Hindustan was also a name used to identify the limits of the Mughal empire anything out of that area was always called by the original name, e.g the kingdom of Tipu Sultan and Haider Ali ... The Marhatas ... Ranjit Singh's area etc.

You are ashamed of calling yourself a Hindustani that is probably why you are so inclined to use the word India ... _*kawa chala hans ki chaal aur apni chaal bhi bhool gaya*_ This is a common problem with Hindustanis these days.


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## Awesome

Halaku Khan said:


> Sigh ... back to this old issue. 200 people waving Pakistani flags doesn't prove anything. There will always be Talibanized elements, even in J&K.
> 
> Plebiscite in Indian Kashmir cannot be held as a matter of principle. Separatists are welcome to contest elections to demonstrate their support. If they win elections that would be a great moral victory for them. They always have the option of not taking the oath.
> 
> The contrast is really striking - on the Indian side, India *wants* separatists to contest elections but they don't have the guts, being worried about their hollowness being exposed. On the other hand, on the Pakistani side, parties like JKLF *want* to participate in elections but Pakistan does not allow them to do so, because they refuse to support merger with Pakistan.


As a matter of principle? What the Indian constitution stands for breaking contracts and treaties?

The plebiscite would involve the general people not just separatists. It's India that's not showing guts because no one would vote for them. Contesting elections? What validity does armed hostage takers, rapists and murderers have to organize elections?

---------- Post added at 06:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:04 PM ----------




Halaku Khan said:


> Sigh ... back to this old issue. 200 people waving Pakistani flags doesn't prove anything. There will always be Talibanized elements, even in J&K.
> 
> Plebiscite in Indian Kashmir cannot be held as a matter of principle. Separatists are welcome to contest elections to demonstrate their support. If they win elections that would be a great moral victory for them. They always have the option of not taking the oath.
> 
> The contrast is really striking - on the Indian side, India *wants* separatists to contest elections but they don't have the guts, being worried about their hollowness being exposed. On the other hand, on the Pakistani side, parties like JKLF *want* to participate in elections but Pakistan does not allow them to do so, because they refuse to support merger with Pakistan.


As a matter of principle? What the Indian constitution stands for breaking contracts and treaties?

The plebiscite would involve the general people not just separatists. It's India that's not showing guts because no one would vote for them. Contesting elections? What validity does armed hostage takers, rapists and murderers have to organize elections?


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## navtrek

asq said:


> Atrocities in kashmir must stop, freedom of assembly and of expression must not be abused by India, amnesty international must be allowed to enter Kashmir to assess the false claims by India about peace in Kashmir.
> 
> India must allow people of kashmir the right of self determination, if not than we the Pakistanis on this forum should boycott all Indian who support the occupation of Kashmir and stop discussions till they agree to support the choices of kashmiris about Kashmir.
> 
> All Pakistanis, if you agree sign yes for me. remember this is a non violent way of us telling Indians to put their money where their mouth is. And that is to allow Democratic and God given right to all Kashmiris to choose their destiny freely or stop claiming to be the biggest Democracy of the world.



free and fair elections in Kashmir. We are ready for all options but i guess Pakistan is not ready for a separate state of kashmir. which most of the ppl of kashmir really want.

Plebiscite abandoned

in the 1950s, the Indian Government distanced itself from its commitment to hold a plebiscite.

This was 

*firstly* because Pakistani forces had not been withdrawn and *secondly* because elections affirming the state's status as part of India had been held.

*Independence option*

But there was a split between those demanding a plebiscite in order to determine allegiance to either India or Pakistan and those who stated that a third option should be added: Independence.

*Ladakh*
Ladakhis do not want to join Pakistan

Pakistan has consistently called for the issue to be resolved by means of a plebiscite and has blamed India for reneging on its pledge.

But although it supports the Kashmiris "right of self-determination," *Pakistan has never accepted the third option as a possible outcome.
*
It is also now evident that holding a plebiscite that assumes Kashmir becomes a united state might not produce an equitable result, given its cultural, ethnic and linguistic diversity. 

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Kashmir's forgotten plebiscite


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## Awesome

navtrek said:


> free and fair elections in Kashmir. We are ready for all options but i guess Pakistan is not ready for a separate state of kashmir. which most of the ppl of kashmir really want.



Pakistan is more than willing to have an independent Kashmir, even if it means losing parts of the Kashmir valley from Pakistan!

Only India has problems, don't drag Pakistan into it.

Plebiscite abandoned



> in the 1950s, the Indian Government distanced itself from its commitment to hold a plebiscite.
> 
> This was
> 
> *firstly* because Pakistani forces had not been withdrawn and *secondly* because elections affirming the state's status as part of India had been held.
> 
> *Independence option*
> 
> But there was a split between those demanding a plebiscite in order to determine allegiance to either India or Pakistan and those who stated that a third option should be added: Independence.
> 
> *Ladakh*
> Ladakhis do not want to join Pakistan
> 
> Pakistan has consistently called for the issue to be resolved by means of a plebiscite and has blamed India for reneging on its pledge.
> 
> But although it supports the Kashmiris "right of self-determination," *Pakistan has never accepted the third option as a possible outcome.
> *
> It is also now evident that holding a plebiscite that assumes Kashmir becomes a united state might not produce an equitable result, given its cultural, ethnic and linguistic diversity.
> 
> BBC NEWS | South Asia | Kashmir's forgotten plebiscite



All decisions made by Indians on their own, if a plebiscite would've said Kashmiris don't want to separate then it would be believable. Conducting a farce of an election doesn't prove anything.


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## Awesome

Just tell me this, if you guys are so confident about the results then why don't you just hold the plebiscite.

All this pussyfooting around it. You should be saying "Yes we know Kashmiris hate us, but we're going to keep the nation hostage with force". Thats the bottom line.

---------- Post added at 07:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:59 PM ----------

Just tell me this, if you guys are so confident about the results then why don't you just hold the plebiscite.

All this pussyfooting around it. You should be saying "Yes we know Kashmiris hate us, but we're going to keep the nation hostage with force". Thats the bottom line.


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## navtrek

some pics of independence day celebrations  in my country.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-08/15/xin_09208061520163592836211.jpg

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-08/15/xin_09208061520165152766312.jpg

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-08/15/xin_09208061520166563091713.jpg

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-08/15/xin_09208061520168282112414.jpg

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-08/15/xin_09208061520169842388815.jpg

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-08/15/xin_10208061520161252809516.jpg

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-08/15/xin_10208061520162813255217.jpg


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## navtrek

Asim Aquil said:


> Pakistan is more than willing to have an independent Kashmir, even if it means losing parts of the Kashmir valley from Pakistan!
> 
> Only India has problems, don't drag Pakistan into it.
> 
> Plebiscite abandoned
> 
> 
> 
> All decisions made by Indians on their own, if a plebiscite would've said Kashmiris don't want to separate then it would be believable. Conducting a farce of an election doesn't prove anything.



hope u have read the article which clearly states that Pakistan is not interested in an Independent Kashmir 

and answer this 

why are some parties not allowed to contest in elections ? in so called Azad Kashmir ? is your Kashmir Azad after all ? 

yes am talking abt JKLF 

At least we allow the separatists to contest in elections.And they dont coz they know they don't share the support to win an election .

i hope u wont tell the elections are rigged coz there are international observers involved. 

Dude your attitude of an eye for an eye will make the whole world blind. " You don't want Kashmir to accede to Pakistan but what ever happens it should not be in the indian federation" These are just sentiments of hate


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## Spring Onion

*Not only Kashmiris but Nepalis also observed Indian Independnt day as protest day.

Nepalis have also demanded of the Indians to free their land which was occupied by India.*


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## Awesome

navtrek said:


> hope u have read the article which clearly states that Pakistan is not interested in an Independent Kashmir
> 
> and answer this
> 
> why are some parties not allowed to contest in elections ? in so called Azad Kashmir ? is your Kashmir Azad after all ?
> 
> yes am talking abt JKLF
> 
> At least we allow the separatists to contest in elections.And they dont coz they know they don't share the support to win an election .
> 
> i hope u wont tell the elections are rigged coz there are international observers involved.
> 
> Dude your attitude of an eye for an eye will make the whole world blind. " You don't want Kashmir to accede to Pakistan but what ever happens it should not be in the indian federation" These are just sentiments of hate


Pakistanis will be more than willing to let go Kashmir if the Kashmiris choose so.

We have always put forward that the Kashmiris be allowed to hold the plebiscite, which includes the independence option. Only India cowers away from that stance.


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## navtrek

SSGPA1 said:


> STAFF WRITER 17:43 HRS IST
> Srinagar, Aug 14 (PTI) Police lobbed teargas shells and used batons to disperse a group of youths who set ablaze a tricolour and hoisted Pakistani flags at a few places and raised slogans in favour of the neighbouring country on the occasion of its Independence Day today.
> 
> Securitymen swung into action after over 200 youth took to the streets outside Jamia Masjid in downtown Srinagar shortly after Friday prayers, burst crackers and clashed with police personnel, official sources said.
> 
> Chanting "Long live Pakistan" and "We want freedom", the youth pelted stones in retaliation to the teargas and cane charge triggering clashes, they said.
> 
> As the situation became tense, security reinforcements were rushed to the spot to check violence from spreading to other areas.
> 
> fullstory



Read this article and you will realize who are these ppl who raised the Pakistani flag

Where is Kashmir's conscience?:Free Kick:Tushar Srivastava's blog-The Times Of India

 The point is these are elements implanted in the society the separatists. So what say do they have a conscience ?


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## luoshan

I feel the only way for India to control Kashmir is the way Chinese control Xinjiang..
Summarily execute all the separatists. The Hurriyat people are too pampered. They are openly doing anti-India activities within Indian territory without fear of any repercurssions. Just machines gun down these Pakistani flag waving people. No country can tolerate such activities. There will be cries from human rights groups for some time.. and then everything will go to normal.
If a bullet is fired from a village/town.. just carpet bomb that village/town. Re-settle patriotic Indians in Kashmir, like the Han Chinese do in Xinjiang. Instead, the Kashmiri pundits are driven out of their ancestral homelands. The situation has to be reversed. India has to become more aggressive. Learn from the Chinese how they control Xinjiang and Tibet.
India should not be too worried about Pakistan. Just treat it with indifference. Pakistan will be doing anti-India activities, no matter what is the situation in Kashmir. I think India can handle whatever worst Pakistan can throw at India. Pakistan has tried everything to grab Kashmir, and failed. Today India is stronger militarily, politically and economically than it was ever was in last 60 years.

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## Khajur

A1Kaid said:


> So what is your resolution or plan to solve the Kashmir issue? With the end result of Kashmir being fully liberated, not half, not partial, but fully.
> 
> 
> Chances of this turning to a nuclear war maybe quite limited as it will be India with the most to lose and in fact annihilated. You know if India even brings nuclear weapons into the equations imagine the immense nuclear response of China and Pakistan against India, India would become a hotbed of radioactivity, it cannot afford to take such measures... The goal of the joint-military operation is to liberate Kashmir not to necessarily destroy all of India, if that were the goal then perhaps it would be reasonable for India to use nuclear weapons, as it's life would be on the line and ability to function day to day...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is true that "nobody likes loosing their territory", but if India introduces Nuclear weapons into the equation, then how would it like to loose all of it's nation? See there is a bigger price to be paid on India's behalf. They can afford to loose Kashmir (geographically, politically, and militarily speaking), obviously it's not theirs...
> 
> You must understand yes this is a nasty business, yes it is bloody, yes it is tricky, yes it is very dangerous, but the success rate is on Pakistan-China side (referring to the Sino-Pakistan joint-military operation).
> 
> 
> P.S I did not post my complete plan or analysis for privacy and secrecy reasons, simply don't want to discuss it in the public forum. I assure you there is more to the strategy then what I have publicly proposed...



I am sure there many war room plans lying around on how to snatch Kashmir from india through mitiary means...they usually falls apart with the first shorts fired...we saw what happened in 65 ,71 and more recently in kargil in yr 99.

Where was china in during 71 war??
Okay, and what was the reaction of china during kargil conflict??
Chinese response clearly disappointed pakistan big time.

Now china going to war with india on Arunachal pradesh and that too to the level of nuclear confrontation is in the realm of scary fiction for both india and china.

Do u think china gonna risk nuclear destruction of its cities which it bulit over the dacades of hardwork?? No never.

And also never remain in the false impression that india wont use its nuclear weapons over kashmir .U must remember that Kashmir is both integral and crtitical part of indian territorial unity.

*Why the hell we are holding on to barren Siachen glaciers inspite of huge human and financial costs??*

*So if there were ever be a situation like u have conjured up...and india is pushed to corner by China and pakistan from both sides them Nuke birds would fly lot sooner than expected.*

But thats no gonna happen anytime soon ,not atleast over Arunanchal pradesh as *i believe the tradition of fidayeen strategies havent found any meaningful ground in chinese military parlance so far*.


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## Khajur

luoshan said:


> I feel the only way for India to control Kashmir is the way Chinese control Xinjiang..
> Summarily execute all the separatists. The Hurriyat people are too pampered. They are openly doing anti-India activities within Indian territory without fear of any repercurssions. Just machines gun down these Pakistani flag waving people. No country can tolerate such activities. There will be cries from human rights groups for some time.. and then everything will go to normal.
> If a bullet is fired from a village/town.. just carpet bomb that village/town. Re-settle patriotic Indians in Kashmir, like the Han Chinese do in Xinjiang. Instead, the Kashmiri pundits are driven out of their ancestral homelands. The situation has to be reversed. India has to become more aggressive. Learn from the Chinese how they control Xinjiang and Tibet.
> India should not be too worried about Pakistan. Just treat it with indifference. Pakistan will be doing anti-India activities, no matter what is the situation in Kashmir. I think India can handle whatever worst Pakistan can throw at India. Pakistan has tried everything to grab Kashmir, and failed. Today India is stronger militarily, politically and economically than it was ever was in last 60 years.



Well, as u know we are not china ,we are a liberal democracy where everyone has right to express his/her feelings as long as they do it in a peaceful manner.

Anyway we dont hesitate to gundown armed terrorists making them martyr for their cause.


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## Khajur

Jana said:


> *Not only Kashmiris but Nepalis also observed Indian Independnt day as protest day.
> 
> Nepalis have also demanded of the Indians to free their land which was occupied by India.*



What about Bangladeshi,Srilankan,Burmese,Butanse ppl??
Any informations on these chaps??
Do they want their land back from india or not??

Sorry forgot to add our big brother china...Any news of protests in Beijing or Shaghai over the status of AP.


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## EjazR

The UN resolution DOES NOT include independence. It was removed on Pakistan's insistence at that time. 

What is ironic is that there is a 70&#37; chance that the policemen arresting these dozens of paid people waving Pakistani flags is a muslim as well.

I'm sure many honorable pakistani members will not believe me but the number of *pro-pakistani kashmiri is miniscule*. I would agree that pro-Independence is a sizeable group as well as but no where in the majority if you look at J&K as a whole. This is a fact.

But even if you want a plebescite by ADDING that independace option, how can you conduct it if militants keep killing innocent civilians? All pro-independace groups *loathe *militants because they have killed innocent people and raped women.

Just as an example, I quote a fierce pro-independace leader Sardar Qayyum Khan



> Sardar has said that militants were &#8216;maligning&#8217; Islam in the name of &#8216;jihad&#8217;; and that &#8216;the weapons of mass destruction might fall into their hands and completely derail the ongoing peace process&#8217;. Very bravely and forcefully he said the following, according to the UNI report of 23 September 2005: "There is no jihad in Jammu and Kashmir. Terrorists are tools in the hands of vested interests. Jihad is waged to protect destitutes and the downtrodden and not to kill women and children. The purpose of jihad in Jammu and Kashmir has been defeated," Mr Khan told media persons at a reception hosted by the Kashmiri community here last night.
> 
> He said violence will not resolve the complex Kashmir issue and the terrorists were a threat to peace in South Asia. "Guns have no place in Jammu and Kashmir. And the blood of innocent people must not be spilled," he added. The *** leader said the worst impact of the violence in the State was the mass exodus of Kashmiri Pandits which severely damaged the secular fabric of the Kashmiri society. "The gun spared nobody. It has killed people from all communities," Mr Khan, who was here to attend an Intra Kashmir conference, said.


http://antisystemic.org/satribune/www.satribune.com/archives/200509/P1_shab.htm

Even with the heightened threat of terrorists saying that they would kill people celebrating Independence day, a large crowd (much bigger than the dozens who came out with Pakistani flags) turned out. 

There are plenty of I-day reports in Indian channels for Kashmir, (btw ladakh and jammu also have sizeable muslim populations as well). But Here is a Chinese source, just in case Indian source would be considered propaganda 
Indian Independence Day function held in India-controlled Kashmir amid tight security_English_Xinhua

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## EjazR

*Kirti salute for Valley Muslim*

MUZAFFAR RAINA

Srinagar, Aug. 14: Soldier Shabir Ahmad Malik has given Kashmir a rare honour in his death  he has become the first Muslim from the state to receive the countrys second-highest peacetime gallantry award for fighting militants.

Shabir has been posthumously conferred the Kirti Chakra, the peacetime equivalent of Maha Vir Chakra and second only to Ashok Chakra, for his role in a five-day encounter in Kupwara this March which left 17 militants and eight soldiers dead.

The award is expected to help the army, not a preferred option for many Kashmiris, draw more local youths to its ranks, though there has been growing interest of late.

This is a big honour for Kashmir and the army. He is the first Kashmiri Muslim to receive such a big army award, defence spokesperson Lt Colonel J.S. Brar said.

An officer in the Srinagar-based 15 Corps said the only Kashmiri to have got a similar honour, third-highest gallantry award Shaurya Chakra, was Hameed Charra. He had also died fighting militants in 2007.

Almost the entire village had thronged 23-year-old Shabirs home to pay their respects after his death  a mass outpouring of emotions that had so far been reserved for martyr militants.

Today, the scenes played out again. I tried to keep it (the news of Shabirs honour) a secret but the moment people learnt about it, they started converging at my home, Shabirs brother Ghulam Mohammad Malik said.

Malik had kept the news, given to him yesterday, close to his heart on the armys instructions. I did not break the news even to my mother because she is very emotional. She broke down when she learnt about it, he said.

Spokesperson Brar said Shabir died while trying to save a wounded colleague. One of his buddies got injured and he was shifting him to safety when he was shot at. He continued fighting bravely, killed two militants and took the injured soldier to safety.

*Other honours*

Ten CISF men who died fighting the Maoist raid on the Nalco plant in Orissas Damanjodi in April this year have been awarded the Presidents Police Medal for Gallantry.

An ITBP constable who lost an eye battling the Taliban while guarding an Afghanistan highway being built by India will receive the Shaurya Chakra, the highest peacetime gallantry award after Ashok Chakra and Kirti Chakra. Two of his colleagues killed in the operation will be conferred the honour posthumously.

The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | Kirti salute for Valley Muslim

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## Spring Onion

EjazR said:


> There are plenty of I-day reports in Indian channels for Kashmir, (btw ladakh and jammu also have sizeable muslim populations as well). But Here is a Chinese source, just in case Indian source would be considered propaganda
> Indian Independence Day function held in India-controlled Kashmir amid tight security_English_Xinhua



 and the reports are about the functions arranged by Indian installed government and Indian army not by common Kashmiri people.

---------- Post added at 09:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:30 PM ----------




Khajur said:


> What about Bangladeshi,Srilankan,Burmese,Butanse ppl??
> Any informations on these chaps??
> Do they want their land back from india or not??
> 
> Sorry forgot to add our big brother china...Any news of protests in Beijing or Shaghai over the status of AP.



The Nepali protest is a fact and realy. Go and check the media.

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## SinoIndusFriendship

luoshan said:


> I feel the only way for India to control Kashmir is the way Chinese control Xinjiang..
> Summarily execute all the separatists. The Hurriyat people are too pampered. They are openly doing anti-India activities within Indian territory without fear of any repercurssions. Just machines gun down these Pakistani flag waving people. No country can tolerate such activities. There will be cries from human rights groups for some time.. and then everything will go to normal.
> If a bullet is fired from a village/town.. just carpet bomb that village/town. Re-settle patriotic Indians in Kashmir, like the Han Chinese do in Xinjiang. Instead, the Kashmiri pundits are driven out of their ancestral homelands. The situation has to be reversed. India has to become more aggressive. Learn from the Chinese how they control Xinjiang and Tibet.
> India should not be too worried about Pakistan. Just treat it with indifference. Pakistan will be doing anti-India activities, no matter what is the situation in Kashmir. I think India can handle whatever worst Pakistan can throw at India. Pakistan has tried everything to grab Kashmir, and failed. Today India is stronger militarily, politically and economically than it was ever was in last 60 years.



Hello my fake-chinese friend,

India already executes and rapes the Kashmirs (who are LOCAL inhabitants). Whereas in Xinjiang the Uyghirs are foreigners who made their home in the land ALONG with many other ethnic groups. These minorities get preferential treatment, whereas the Kashmirs receive shaft-treatment from the GOI. 

I'm sorry but you are lying through your teeth again. Someone asked to show "proof" Hindus lie constantly -- here it is: "If a bullet is fired from a village/town.. just carpet bomb that village/town. Re-settle patriotic Indians in Kashmir, like the Han Chinese do in Xinjiang."

Bharat is battling a uphill battle. Again the source of your problem is your out-of-control over-population, which is getting worse by the day. It threatens ALL neighbors of India because GOI's "solution" is to annex land (rather than addressing the cause of the problem).  Please, this is *not* the solution. All countries in the world, especially large sparse ones can offer help by accepting a few million+ refugees each.  

My suggestion to all nations, including China & India is to educate people on use of (1) birth-control pills & (2) condoms. Furthermore, make these two available at highly-subsidized prices so even the poorest of poor can afford them.  Over-population is a problem of Europe which they exported. This is not a Indo-centric problem, or a African-centric problem, we all are affected. Even nations like Japan which has reverse issue of declining population is affected. Now Japan's 127 million VS ~6.5 billion. If in future Japan is 60 million VS 10 billion world, then Japan is a target for invasion and their global influence diminishes accordingly.

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## Khajur

Jana said:


> The Nepali protest is a fact and realy. Go and check the media.



We have free borders with Nepal and Nepali men work in our army.

Its doesnt matter much if some self motivated groups protests.

Tell me if there was any protest from the govt of Nepal on any land dispute ??...Sorry, i dont think so.


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## DesiGuy

of course, there are many Muslims in the Indian army, who thinks they are first Indian, before Muslims.

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## EjazR

Jana said:


> and the reports are about the functions arranged by Indian installed government and Indian army not by common Kashmiri people.




It was Kashmiri elected government, and the people in the parade is J&K police which is 70% muslim. The function was held in Kashmir, which is 90% muslim, The crowds that you can see in the stadium are attending the government organized function ofcourse, but it is organised by a government that they elected.


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## Spring Onion

Khajur said:


> We have free borders with Nepal and Nepali men work in our army.
> 
> Its doesnt matter much if some self motivated groups protests.
> 
> Tell me if there was any protest from the govt of Nepal on any land dispute ??...Sorry, i dont think so.



Govt of Nepal has been having problems time and again due to Indian interference. Idians have been involved in even that Royal revolt in Nepali kingdom earlier.

So do not tell me if Nepali govt had protested or not but the fact is that India is holding Nepali territory as well and the Nepali people did protest today on the Indian Independence day.

It doesnt matter if their govt said anything or not. We are talking about public sentiments.


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## EagleEyes

How is it for India to decide whether the people who own that land should live there or not. India's occupation is illegitimate, and then killing innocent people of the Kashmir state is murderous.

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## Spring Onion

EjazR said:


> It was Kashmiri elected government, and the people in the parade is J&K police which is 70% muslim. The function was held in Kashmir, which is 90% muslim, The crowds that you can see in the stadium are attending the government organized function ofcourse, but it is organised by a government that they elected.



The parade was not participated by Kashmiris. If you hold a parade at Gun point in Muslim Majority disputed area and call it a success then it is just laughable.

The Police in Indian Held Kashmir is a bunch of paid employees who can not do much but to obey their employer. The few thousands paid Police do not represent Kashmiris.

The govt in Indian Occupied Kashmir has always been an installed Govt not an elected one.


If it was will of the Kashmiris they would not have observed it as a black day and they would not have burnt Indian fllag nor they would have hoisted Pakistani flag.

And stop parroting Muslim majority or Muslim minority Kashmir because Kashmir struggle has never been on religious lines.

They are Kashmiris and they are an independent state which has been occupied by Indian murderous Army.


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## Khajur

Jana said:


> Govt of Nepal has been having problems time and again due to Indian interference. Idians have been involved in even that Royal revolt in Nepali kingdom earlier.
> 
> So do not tell me if Nepali govt had protested or not but the fact is that India is holding Nepali territory as well and the Nepali people did protest today on the Indian Independence day.
> 
> It doesnt matter if their govt said anything or not. We are talking about public sentiments.



No it does matter a lot whether its Nepali govt or not.
Its the cliche of public sentiment that is vague and unimportant in international relations...so i guess enough about Nepali protests.


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## DesiGuy

You cannot find more freedom anywhere than you find in India, even in USA.
Freedom in India is not regulated but understood and accepted by people themselves.
There are Christian preachers who take huge parades to spread their faith, tell me where it happens.
India in where millions were killed out of religious tensions and you often hears, bombing. Still Muslims and Hindus live together. 
Nowhere in the world can you find such harmony. It is only India.

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## haawk

WebMaster said:


> How is it for India to decide whether the people who own that land should live there or not. India's occupation is illegitimate, and then killing innocent people of the Kashmir state is murderous.



if they dont want to live there they can sell the land and can go to pakistan.....but the land belongs to indialol:

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## Spring Onion

Khajur said:


> No it does matter a lot whether its Nepali govt or not.
> Its the cliche of public sentiment that is vague and unimportant in international relations...so i guess enough about Nepali protests.



yeh same cliche within India 



*Tribals, Maoists hoist black flags in Lalgarh on Indian Independence Day*

PTI 15 August 2009, 09:22pm IST



MIDNAPORE: *Tribals led by Maoists held protests with black flags at various places in Lalgarh in West Midnapore district on Independence Day on Saturday* inspite of presence of central forces and the police. 

*Villagers of Lalgarh, Salbani, Goaltore, Belpahari, Binpur stayed away from Independence Day celebrations and took out processions led by Maoists in various areas with black flags. 

Over 5,000 tribals including women, armed with traditional weapons also gathered at Madhupur, a Peoples Committee Against Police Atrocities stronghold, near Salbani and hoisted a black flag, the police said. *

*Superintendent of Police, West Midnapore, Manoj Verma said the police were inquiring about the hoisiting of black flags. *
The West Bengal government has already admitted that the anti-Maoist operations by the central and police forces, launched with much fanfare on June 19 were a failure. 
Another phase of the operations, however, would begin shortly, it has been announced.

Tribals, Maoists hoist black flags in Lalgarh - India - NEWS - The Times of India


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## Spring Onion

haawk said:


> if they dont want to live there they can sell the land and can go to pakistan.....but the land belongs to indialol:



No one sells own land to invaders It was your beghairat dogra who had sold the Kashmiris.

The land belongs to Kashmiris and thats why they do not bucth an inch despite Indian brutalities.

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## haawk

i agree that the land belongs to kashmiris............but kashmiris are indian>>>>>>

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## Khajur

Jana,
I could give the names of five more places where they hoisted black flags today.

Villagers of Lalgarh had endured the bad experience of moist attack and subsecuent police action,so such reactions are only natural . Their grievances are mostly about police brutalites ,not any bigger ideological battle like the moists fight aganist the state.As the moists leave the area, soon the place'll come back to normal like seen in similar other cases.

And its not for the first time....independent india had seen many such black flags, even more bloodier insurgencies in the past.But its borders are still very much intact...so dont get any ideas,pls.

On our sixty third independence day i assure u that India'll only grow and prosper as *one nation *in the next 63yrs. Hence take it easy would be my advice for u.


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## DesiGuy

why do you guys support china, when Tibet, xinang, and others parts are invaded by china.


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## haawk

DesiGuy said:


> why do you guys support china, when Tibet, xinang, and others parts are invaded by china.



because china has replaced US,,,,,,new boyfriend,,,,,,has to support him or will not have a boyfriend at all

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## Spring Onion

Khajur said:


> Jana,
> I could give the names of five more places where they hoisted black flags today.
> 
> Villagers of Lalgarh had endured the bad experience of moist attack and subsecuent police action,so such reactions are only natural
> 
> 
> And its not for the first time....independent india had seen many such black flags, even more bloodier insurgencies in the past.But its borders are still very much intact...so dont get any ideas,pls.
> 
> On our sixty third independence day i assure u that India'll only grow and prosper as *one nation *in the next 63yrs. Hence take it easy would be my advice for u.



lolzz well i am taking it easy no worries man. Its Indians who get uneasy and throng enmass on forums to deny such protests against Indian occupation.


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## Khajur

Jana said:


> lolzz well i am taking it easy no worries man. Its Indians who get uneasy and throng enmass on forums to deny such protests against Indian occupation.



You should thank us for giving u the *real picture *preventing the pile up of unnecessary hopes.


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## afriend

now what right does you guys have to talk about it, you dont own kashmir, you have differential pliocies in the freedom struggle of people from various parts, like balochistan, tibet. The tone you guys are using against any positive signs of patriotism in kashmir valley is disgusting, i and many of my fellow indians are mature enough to understand the issues and feeling of hatred of many in kashmir valley against india. I hope you guys too would be mature enough to appreciate the patriortic feelings existing amongs the FEW kashmiris.


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## DesiGuy

After independence of India and pakistan during 1947AD, it was pakistan army which first infiltered inside kashmir and looted, slayed even raped the innocent people of kashmir. This is history. You can confirm this with any native kashmiri, they will let you know the truth. By the request of both Maharaja HariSingh and Sheik Adbulla to rescue the people of kashmir, Indian army entered inside kashmir and started chasing away the Pakistani army. With the full support of local kashmiris Indian army chased out the Pakis, and regained around 65% of the land.
Those days US was with Pakistan and with the help of US, Pak voiced this to UN, and their claim was/is Kashmir is muslim dominated area, so it belongs to Pakistan. With the mounding pressure from UN, India halted the operation. It was kashmiri people who wanted Inadian army their, to save them from Pak army. Over a period of time Kashmiri people wanted and ready to merge with India. There were some personal ego clash between the then Indian prime-minister Nehru and Sheik Abdulla which cast the dear, and the process was delayed.

Pakistan used this opportunity nicely, and played tactics politics. One side with the help of US and UN, it put pressure on India to leave kashmir. Other side it propagandize the Kashmiris with the religious strings. With time the new generation kashmiris forget what pakistan did to them early, and they started approaching this problem as Hindu army vs Muslim army problem. The rest is once again history.


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## indian_pm

I salute to this Kashmiri Soldier n his Family , who laid down his life for his nation.....


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## asq

navtrek said:


> free and fair elections in Kashmir. We are ready for all options but i guess Pakistan is not ready for a separate state of kashmir. which most of the ppl of kashmir really want.
> 
> Plebiscite abandoned
> 
> in the 1950s, the Indian Government distanced itself from its commitment to hold a plebiscite.
> 
> This was
> 
> *firstly* because Pakistani forces had not been withdrawn and *secondly* because elections affirming the state's status as part of India had been held.
> 
> *Independence option*
> 
> But there was a split between those demanding a plebiscite in order to determine allegiance to either India or Pakistan and those who stated that a third option should be added: Independence.
> 
> *Ladakh*
> Ladakhis do not want to join Pakistan
> 
> Pakistan has consistently called for the issue to be resolved by means of a plebiscite and has blamed India for reneging on its pledge.
> 
> But although it supports the Kashmiris "right of self-determination," *Pakistan has never accepted the third option as a possible outcome.
> *
> It is also now evident that holding a plebiscite that assumes Kashmir becomes a united state might not produce an equitable result, given its cultural, ethnic and linguistic diversity.
> 
> BBC NEWS | South Asia | Kashmir's forgotten plebiscite



Ans. #1 Pakistan did withdraw from srinagar to the present position.


Ans # 2 plebiscite will determine the rule of majority and will determine the wishes of the people.

Ans # 3 Ladakhians will have to abide by the choices made by Majority and will have right under minority laws.

Ans # 4. India being the member of U.N cannot unilaterally decide to abandon the resolution passed by U.N. about holding plebiscite, it is considered a breach of U.N. charter and its mandates.


Ans# 5 All ethnic and cultural groups will have to live as they do in Pakistan and India and will have the safeguard built in the Kashmir's provincial rules and regulations.

There you go, now I have answere3d all your question, you can atleast be a righteous person to accept the truth and become part of the solution and not the problem.


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## BanglaBhoot

By LYDIA POLGREEN
SHOPIAN, Kashmir  On a sunny late spring afternoon, Asiya and Nilofa Jan left home to tend to their familys apple orchard. Along the way they passed a gantlet of police camps wreathed in razor wire as they crossed the bridge over the ankle-deep Rambi River. 

Little more than 12 hours later their battered bodies were found in the stream. Asiya, a 17-year-old high school student, had been badly beaten. Blood streamed from her nose and a sharp gash in her forehead. She and her 22-year-old sister-in-law, Nilofa, had been gang raped before their deaths. 

The crime, and allegations of a bungled attempt by the local police to cover it up, set off months of sporadic street protests here in the Indian-controlled part of Kashmir. It is now the focal point for seemingly bottomless Kashmiri rage at the continuing presence of roughly 500,000 Indian security forces. The forces remain, though the violence by separatist militants whom they came here to fight in the past few years has ebbed to its lowest point in two decades. 

India says Kashmir is a free part of a free country, said Majid Khan, a 20-year-old unemployed man who has joined the stone-throwing mobs. If that is so, why are we being brutalized? Why are women gang raped?

India and Pakistan have fought two wars over Kashmir, and the Himalayan border region remains at the heart of the 62-year rivalry between the nuclear-armed neighbors. 

Settling the Kashmir dispute is the key to unlocking the regions tensions, something the United States hopes will eliminate Pakistans shadowy support for militant groups and allow its army to shift attention toward fighting Taliban militants. 

Despite Kashmiri rage and the damage to Indias image, the Indian government has bridled at any outside pressure to negotiate a solution, let alone reduce its force level here. Caught in the middle are Kashmirs 10 million people. The case of Asiya and Nilofa is only the latest abuse to strike a chord with Kashmiris, who say it is emblematic of the problems of what amounts to a full-scale occupation. 

Kashmir has its own police force, but it works in close tandem with the Indian forces here and is seen by many as virtually indistinguishable from them. Four Kashmiri officers are suspected of trying to cover up the crime. 

Kashmiri activists and human rights groups say that rapes by men in uniform, extrajudicial killings and a lack of redress are endemic, not least because security forces are largely shielded from prosecution by laws put in place when Indian troops were battling a once-potent insurgency here. Both local and national security forces here operate with impunity, they say.

Last summer a dispute over land for Hindu pilgrims between Kashmiris, who are mostly Muslims, and the regions Hindu administrators, set off weeks of massive demonstrations as well. 

The question for India, Kashmiris say, is whether the huge security presence is doing more harm than good.

Maybe at some point in time when the militants were in the thousands it made sense to have so many soldiers here, said Mehbooba Mufti, leader of a major opposition party here. But at this point they are not helping in any way. Their mere presence has become a source of friction.

Indian government officials disagree and point to statistics showing a decline in infiltration from Pakistan as proof that their tough methods have worked. 

According to the government, 557 civilians died in 2005 in what the government calls terrorist violence in Jammu and Kashmir, which is Indias full name for the area. By 2008 that number had plummeted to 91. The number of militants killed has fallen by nearly two-thirds, while the deaths of security personnel in the region have been more than halved. Where tens of thousands of armed men once roamed, government officials now estimate there are as few as 500. 

Analysts say that other events have also played a role in reducing militancy and infiltration. Secret talks between India and Pakistan over Kashmir made progress but broke down in 2007, when Pakistans president at the time, Pervez Musharraf, began losing his grip on power. 

In addition, after two decades of militant separatism, in December 2008 voters ignored separatist calls for a boycott and cast ballots in huge numbers in state assembly elections. It was a hopeful sign that Kashmiris believed they could influence their destiny by peaceful means. 

The election brought Omar Abdullah, the scion of Kashmirs most famous political family, to power as chief minister of the state. He promised to roll back the laws that shielded Indian security forces in Kashmir from oversight, and to put Kashmirs police force, rather than federal police and troops, at the forefront of securing the region. But that has not happened, and the details of the Shopian killings have fed the darkest and most personal fears of Kashmiris as the investigation into the deaths has stalled. 

Who does not see their wife in Nilofa, their daughter in Asiya? said Abdul Rashid Dalal, who lives in Shopian. 

Nilofa and Asiya Jan had walked to the orchard around 3:30 p.m. on Friday, May 29. When Shakeel Ahmad Ahanger, Nilofas husband, came home at 7:30 p.m., the two had not yet returned. He went to search for them but found no trace. 

By 9:30 p.m. he was frantic. He went to the police station, and along with several officers scoured their route, including the shallow bed of the Rambi River. The police called off the search at 2:30 a.m., urging Mr. Ahanger to return at daybreak. After his dawn prayers, he went back to the bridge with police officials. 

Look, there is your wife, the local police chief said to Mr. Ahanger, pointing at a body lying prone on some rocks in a dry patch in the middle of the stream. 

He rushed to her, but she was dead. Her dress had been hiked up, exposing her midriff. Her body was bruised. I knew immediately something very bad had happened to her, Mr. Ahanger said. His sister was found a mile downstream. Their bodies were taken for autopsies, but the cause of death seemed clear to residents who have longed lived in the shadow of the security forces. 

Two girls disappear next to an armed camp, said Abdul Hamid Deva, a member of a committee of elders set up in response to the killings. Their bodies then mysteriously appear in a river next to the camp. It does not take much imagination to know what is likely to have happened. 

Town residents gathered at the hospital for the autopsy results. Initially a doctor said the women drowned. But the crowd rejected the conclusion; the stream was barely ankle deep. Residents pelted the hospital with stones. A second team of doctors was called in. They confirmed that the women had been raped. 

What was done to these women even animals could not have done, the gynecologist who examined the women told the crowd, weeping as she spoke, according to witnesses. 

Two men who had been at a shop near the bridge would later tell investigators they saw a police truck parked on the bridge and heard women crying for help. 

Initially, the chief minister, Mr. Abdullah, also told reporters that the women had drowned. Later security officials said that advisers had misinformed him. A few days later he acknowledged that the women had come to harm and appointed a commission to investigate. But investigators say that crucial evidence has been lost and that they are no closer to finding the culprits despite the arrest of four local police officers on suspicion of a cover-up.

Kuldeep Khoda, the director general of Kashmirs police force, admitted that his forces had made mistakes. There is a prima facie feeling there was destruction of evidence, whether deliberate or inadvertent, Mr. Khoda said. The investigation is going on and the results of that investigation will come.

Indian government officials say that the security forces here are needed to head off more insurgent violence or a Pakistani invasion. If there would not be a war that is fought by external forces, our soldiers would not be there, said a senior Indian intelligence official, referring to groups in Pakistan. 

But residents of Shopian say the security forces are the only threat. The only thing I can do now is hope justice will be done, said Mr. Ahanger, Nilofas husband, who is struggling to care for his 2-year-old son, Suzain. Nobody is safe in Kashmir  even a child, an elderly man, a young girl. Nobody is safe.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/16/world/asia/16kashmir.html?_r=1&ref=global-home&pagewanted=print

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## sensenreason

SSGPA1 said:


> Why don't you wake up and smell the coffee ... you don't even know the issue of Balochistan and want to compare Kashmir and Balochistan!
> 
> Balochistan has always voted for Pakistan and it is an undisputed territory. Kashmir is a disputed part as accepted by the UN, Pakistan, India and most importantly by the Kashmiris!!
> 
> India will need to sit down and resolve Kasshmir with Pakistan!!!



Im not comparing Balochistan with Kashmir...you were.though both were supposed to choose India or Pakistan at the time of partition, and that being the only similarity at that time..

Ive only asked you how are you so sure that they will vote for Pakistan and not choose any other option....When did I say Kashmir is not disputed by Pakistan or that India did not refer it to the UN.Do recall that its Pakistan that accuses India of arming/supporting the insurgency in Balochistan and therefore is a parallel to Kashmir in that regard.Ofcourse, India does dispute its status with Pakistan...

Further, Ive no issues with India talking Kashmir to Pakistan.

So the question, I posed was ..."how are you so sure that they will vote for Pakistan and not choose any other option"


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## nitesh28

WebMaster said:


> How is it for India to decide whether the people who own that land should live there or not. India's occupation is illegitimate, and then killing innocent people of the Kashmir state is murderous.



the local population always has the first right over the area from wich they belong.

and from what i know(tell me if i am wrong) no one is allowed to own land in kashmir except kashmiris.


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## toxic_pus

asq said:


> Ans # 4. India being the member of U.N cannot unilaterally decide to abandon the resolution passed by U.N. about holding plebiscite, it is considered a breach of U.N. charter and its mandates.


Actually it can. The Kashmir resolutions are under Chaper VI of UN Charter, making these resolutions, 'advisory' and not 'compulsory' in nature. 


> Chapter VI establishes the appropriate methods of settling international disputes and the Security Council's powers in relation to them. It is generally agreed *that resolutions under Chapter VI are advisory rather than binding*. These resolutions have generally been operative only with the consent of all parties involved. Traditionally, *the Chapter has not been interpreted to support collective intervention by member states in the affairs of another member state.*


Source

I will also make another point here. The allegation that it was India, that refused demilitarization of Kashmir or that it reneged on UN resolution is actually a subterfuge.There is a second side to every story. 

As per Document 1100, Para 75, Pakistan was to '*agree to withdraw its troops from that State*' and '*use its best endeavor to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting*'. UN was then to notify the GoI '*that the tribesmen and Pakistan nationals referred to in Part II A 2 hereof have withdrawn*' and '*that the Pakistan forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir*'. Only after receipt of this intimation, the GoI was '*to begin to withdraw the bulk of their forces from the State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission*'

Source

More important than Pakistan 'agreeing' to demilitarize the Kashmir region, was the fact that Pakistan had to completely remove 'the tribesmen and Pakistan nationals'. It is this presence of 'the tribesmen and Pakistan nationals' and further infiltration of Pakistani nationals into the region, that had prompted India to insist on the presence of a higher number of Indian troops in Kashmir - more than the number that UN had suggested.



> The UNCIP taking note of the developments adopted a resolution on August 13, 1948, divided into three parts. *The first part called for a cease-fire. The second part called for Pakistan to withdraw its nationals and tribesmen and to vacate the territory occupied by it. Then after the above stipulation had been implemented India was to withdraw the bulk of its forces from the State leaving an adequate number behind to ensure that the Government of Jammu and Kashmir maintains law and order and peace*, a clear indication that the UNCIP believed that Jammu and Kashmir was a part of India. Part (3) of the Resolution to be implemented after parts (1) and (2) stated that both India and Pakistan had reaffirmed their wish that the future status of Jammu and Kashmir shall be determined in accordance with the will of the people.
> 
> *Yet the ensuing months, after the adoption of the resolution, saw Pakistan brazenly advancing deep into Baltistan and Ladakh, hundreds of kilometres to the east while the so-called Azad Kashmir forces, which were to be disbanded, were expanded and consolidated and formed what the UNCIP Military Adviser described as a "formidable force".*
> 
> A *subsequent resolution was adopted by the UNCIP on 5, January 1949 on the same issue. However, this resolution was to be binding only if the stipulations of the resolution of August 14, 1948 had first been met. India accepted this resolution also. It is noteworthy that while India accepted the two resolutions, Pakistan balked at implementing even the first one and has still *, even after the passage of fifty years, not vacated the territories of Jammu and Kashmir seized by it. Indeed, *the portion of the State now called the Northern Areas, has been declared a part of Pakistan, separate to the entity named "Azad Kashmir"*
> 
> The United Nations: Jammu & Kashmir; Embassy of India - Washington, DC


Contrary to the popular belief in Pakistan, it is actually Pakistan which reneged on UN resolution. India stands on a firm legal ground.

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## Mig-29

nitesh28 said:


> the local population always has the first right over the area from wich they belong.
> 
> and from what i know(tell me if i am wrong) no one is allowed to own land in kashmir except kashmiris.



You are absolutely right that is the reason there was such a huge protest involving the amaranth board few months back.


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## aimarraul

DesiGuy said:


> why do you guys support china, when Tibet, xinang, and others parts are invaded by china.




china invaded Tibet and Xinjiang 800 years earlier before US invaded every piece of your current territory

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## haawk

aimarraul said:


> china invaded Tibet and Xinjiang 800 years ago before US invaded every piece of your right-now territory



by that logic .....china was invaded and conquered by the mongols .....so mongolia should claim whole of china

Mongol invasion of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## aimarraul

haawk said:


> by that logic .....china was invaded and conquered by the mongols .....so mongolia should claim whole of china
> 
> Mongol invasion of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



china's territory is still 3 times bigger than india's........i don't know much about the history ,china probably took the whole tibet from india thousands years agowhat real matter is where you are and what you are capable now


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## aimarraul

i didn't educated well ........i am not proud of this,indian like me probably don't even have a chance to touch the computer......

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## grey boy 2

BSF; Poor English? big deal! 

Chinese learn English not to become Shakespeare!

As you know not everyone have a chance like you Indians,

have the privilage to learn English for hundreds of years from

your Old Brittish Slave master!!


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## haawk

grey boy 2 said:


> BSF; Poor English? big deal!
> 
> Chinese learn English not to become Shakespeare!
> 
> As you know not everyone have a chance like you Indians,
> 
> have the privilage to learn English for hundreds of years from
> 
> your Old Brittish Slave master!!





then i am sure that you would be knowing japanese


and german toohttp://http://www.dhm.de/ausstellungen/tsingtau/tsingtau_e.html

perhaps english and french too

European penetration of China


A shocked mandarin in Manchu robe in the back, with Queen Victoria (UK), William II (Germany), Nicholas II (Russia), Marianne (France), and a samurai (Japan) stabbing into a plate with Chine ("China" in French) written on it.
Main article: European Enclaves in China
The 16th century brought many Jesuit missionaries to China, such as Matteo Ricci, who established missions where Western science was introduced, and where Europeans gathered knowledge of Chinese society, history, culture, and science. During the eighteenth century, merchants from Western Europe came to China in increasing numbers. However, merchants were confined to Guangzhou and the Portuguese colony of Macau, as they had been since the 16th century. European traders were increasingly irritated by what they saw as the relatively high customs duties they had to pay and by the attempts to curb the growing import trade in opium. By 1800, its importation was forbidden by the imperial government. However, the opium trade continued to boom.
Early in the nineteenth century, serious internal weaknesses developed in the Manchu empire that left China vulnerable to Western, Japanese, and Russian imperialism. In 1839, China found itself fighting the First Opium War with Britain. China was defeated, and in 1842, agreed to the provisions of the Treaty of Nanjing. Hong Kong was ceded to Britain, and certain ports, including Shanghai and Guangzhou, were opened to British trade and residence. In 1856, the Second Opium War broke out. The Chinese were again defeated, and now forced to the terms of the 1858 Treaty of Tientsin. The treaty opened new ports to trade and allowed foreigners to travel in the interior. Christians gained the right to propagate their religion&#8212;another means of Western penetration. The United States and Russia later obtained the same prerogatives in separate treaties.
Toward the end of the nineteenth century, China appeared on the way to territorial dismemberment and economic vassalage&#8212;the fate of India&#8217;s rulers that played out much earlier. Several provisions of these treaties caused long-standing bitterness and humiliation among the Chinese: extra-territoriality (meaning that in a dispute with a Chinese person, a Westerner had the right to be tried in a court under the laws of his own country), customs regulation, and the right to station foreign warships in Chinese waters.
The rise of Japan since the Meiji Restoration as an imperial power led to further subjugation of China. In a dispute over China's longstanding claim of suzerainty in Korea, war broke out between China and Japan, resulting in humiliating defeat for the Chinese. By the Treaty of Shimonoseki (1895), China was forced to recognise effective Japanese rule of Korea and Taiwan was ceded to Japan until its recovery in 1945 at the end of the WWII by the Republic of China.
China's defeat at the hands of Japan was another trigger for future aggressive actions by Western powers. In 1897, Germany demanded and was given a set of exclusive mining and railroad rights in Shandong province. Russia obtained access to Dairen and Port Arthur and the right to build a railroad across Manchuria, thereby achieving complete domination over a large portion of northwestern China. The United Kingdom and France also received a number of concessions. At this time, much of China was divided up into "spheres of influence": Germany dominated Jiaozhou (Kiaochow) Bay, Shandong, and the Huang He (Hwang-Ho) valley; Russia dominated the Liaodong Peninsula and Manchuria; the United Kingdom dominated Weihaiwei and the Yangtze Valley; and France dominated the Guangzhou Bay and several other southern provinces.
*China continued to be divided up into these spheres* until the United States, which had no sphere of influence, grew alarmed at the possibility of its businessmen being excluded from Chinese markets. In 1899, Secretary of State John Hay asked the major powers to agree to a policy of equal trading privileges. In 1900, several powers agreed to the U.S.-backed scheme, giving rise to the "Open Door" policy, denoting freedom of commercial access and non-annexation of Chinese territory. In any event, it was in the European powers' interest to have a weak but independent Chinese government. The privileges of the Europeans in China were guaranteed in the form of treaties with the Qing government. In the event that the Qing government totally collapsed, each power risked losing the privileges that it already had negotiated.
The erosion of Chinese sovereignty contributed to a spectacular anti-foreign outbreak in June 1900, when the "Boxers" (properly the society of the "righteous and harmonious fists") attacked European legations in Beijing, provoking a rare display of unity among the powers, whose troops landed at Tianjin and marched on the capital. British and French forces looted, plundered and burned the Old Summer Palace to the ground for the second time (the first time being in 1860, following the Second Opium War), as a form of threat to force the Qing empire to give in to their demands. German forces were particularly severe in exacting revenge for the killing of their ambassador, while Russia tightened its hold on Manchuria in the northeast until its crushing defeat by Japan in the war of 1904-1905.
Although extra-territorial jurisdiction was abandoned by the United Kingdom and the United States in 1943, foreign political control of parts of China only finally ended with the incorporation of Hong Kong and the small Portuguese territory of Macau into the People's Republic of China in 1997 and 1999 respectively.


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## grey boy 2

haawk said:


> then i am sure that you would be knowing japanese




Poor baby, still feeling upset from your lack of knowledge?


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## haawk

grey boy 2 said:


> Poor baby, still feeling upset from your lack of knowledge?




since you don't know history....i ve posted your imperial history in my above post......please read before posting......oops chinese don't read english!!!!!! am sorry


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## aimarraul

haawk said:


> then i am sure that you would be knowing japanese
> 
> 
> and german toohttp://http://www.dhm.de/ausstellungen/tsingtau/tsingtau_e.html
> 
> perhaps english and french too
> 
> European penetration of China
> 
> 
> A shocked mandarin in Manchu robe in the back, with Queen Victoria (UK), William II (Germany), Nicholas II (Russia), Marianne (France), and a samurai (Japan) stabbing into a plate with Chine ("China" in French) written on it.
> Main article: European Enclaves in China
> The 16th century brought many Jesuit missionaries to China, such as Matteo Ricci, who established missions where Western science was introduced, and where Europeans gathered knowledge of Chinese society, history, culture, and science. During the eighteenth century, merchants from Western Europe came to China in increasing numbers. However, merchants were confined to Guangzhou and the Portuguese colony of Macau, as they had been since the 16th century. European traders were increasingly irritated by what they saw as the relatively high customs duties they had to pay and by the attempts to curb the growing import trade in opium. By 1800, its importation was forbidden by the imperial government. However, the opium trade continued to boom.
> Early in the nineteenth century, serious internal weaknesses developed in the Manchu empire that left China vulnerable to Western, Japanese, and Russian imperialism. In 1839, China found itself fighting the First Opium War with Britain. China was defeated, and in 1842, agreed to the provisions of the Treaty of Nanjing. Hong Kong was ceded to Britain, and certain ports, including Shanghai and Guangzhou, were opened to British trade and residence. In 1856, the Second Opium War broke out. The Chinese were again defeated, and now forced to the terms of the 1858 Treaty of Tientsin. The treaty opened new ports to trade and allowed foreigners to travel in the interior. Christians gained the right to propagate their religion&#8212;another means of Western penetration. The United States and Russia later obtained the same prerogatives in separate treaties.
> Toward the end of the nineteenth century, China appeared on the way to territorial dismemberment and economic vassalage&#8212;the fate of India&#8217;s rulers that played out much earlier. Several provisions of these treaties caused long-standing bitterness and humiliation among the Chinese: extra-territoriality (meaning that in a dispute with a Chinese person, a Westerner had the right to be tried in a court under the laws of his own country), customs regulation, and the right to station foreign warships in Chinese waters.
> The rise of Japan since the Meiji Restoration as an imperial power led to further subjugation of China. In a dispute over China's longstanding claim of suzerainty in Korea, war broke out between China and Japan, resulting in humiliating defeat for the Chinese. By the Treaty of Shimonoseki (1895), China was forced to recognise effective Japanese rule of Korea and Taiwan was ceded to Japan until its recovery in 1945 at the end of the WWII by the Republic of China.
> China's defeat at the hands of Japan was another trigger for future aggressive actions by Western powers. In 1897, Germany demanded and was given a set of exclusive mining and railroad rights in Shandong province. Russia obtained access to Dairen and Port Arthur and the right to build a railroad across Manchuria, thereby achieving complete domination over a large portion of northwestern China. The United Kingdom and France also received a number of concessions. At this time, much of China was divided up into "spheres of influence": Germany dominated Jiaozhou (Kiaochow) Bay, Shandong, and the Huang He (Hwang-Ho) valley; Russia dominated the Liaodong Peninsula and Manchuria; the United Kingdom dominated Weihaiwei and the Yangtze Valley; and France dominated the Guangzhou Bay and several other southern provinces.
> *China continued to be divided up into these spheres* until the United States, which had no sphere of influence, grew alarmed at the possibility of its businessmen being excluded from Chinese markets. In 1899, Secretary of State John Hay asked the major powers to agree to a policy of equal trading privileges. In 1900, several powers agreed to the U.S.-backed scheme, giving rise to the "Open Door" policy, denoting freedom of commercial access and non-annexation of Chinese territory. In any event, it was in the European powers' interest to have a weak but independent Chinese government. The privileges of the Europeans in China were guaranteed in the form of treaties with the Qing government. In the event that the Qing government totally collapsed, each power risked losing the privileges that it already had negotiated.
> The erosion of Chinese sovereignty contributed to a spectacular anti-foreign outbreak in June 1900, when the "Boxers" (properly the society of the "righteous and harmonious fists") attacked European legations in Beijing, provoking a rare display of unity among the powers, whose troops landed at Tianjin and marched on the capital. British and French forces looted, plundered and burned the Old Summer Palace to the ground for the second time (the first time being in 1860, following the Second Opium War), as a form of threat to force the Qing empire to give in to their demands. German forces were particularly severe in exacting revenge for the killing of their ambassador, while Russia tightened its hold on Manchuria in the northeast until its crushing defeat by Japan in the war of 1904-1905.
> Although extra-territorial jurisdiction was abandoned by the United Kingdom and the United States in 1943, foreign political control of parts of China only finally ended with the incorporation of Hong Kong and the small Portuguese territory of Macau into the People's Republic of China in 1997 and 1999 respectively.



everyone knows this shameful period of china .but why are we still speaking chinese?we never stop fighting in that tough time.it reminds us make china stronger.what's india's answer to that history?china is your biggest threat.......


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## grey boy 2

haawk said:


> since you don't know history....i ve posted your imperial history in my above post......please read before posting......oops chinese don't read english!!!!!! am sorry




Oh, please, now you want to talk about 16 century?

BTW, were India part of it? Guess not?

Will it be better to talk about 1962 China-Indo war?

Thanks for inviting China for a nice cake walk!! HAHAHA


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## graphican

DesiGuy said:


> of course, there are many Muslims in the Indian army, who thinks they are first Indian, before Muslims.



This seems to be a wishful thinking. *Muslims believe to be tied with Muslim Ummah First. See Muslims pools conducted anywhere in the world.*

*UK Muslims:* http://news.bbc.co.uk

*British , French, German Muslims*: http://www.politics.ie

*Muslims in General*: http://www.diplomaticourier.org

*Regarding "many Muslims in Indian Army", there are 3&#37; Muslims in whole Indian Army. Now how many out of 3% think they are Indian First and Muslims Second?*

Reference URL: http://www.anindianmuslim.com


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## EjazR

Indian first? muslim first?

Well do we belong to our mum or our dad first? Being Indian and being Muslim there is no conflict between the two. It is childish to insist on one or the other. Being Indian and being muslims are two parts of my makeup just as I belong to my mum and dad.

The constitution of India that guarantees religious freedom means that India is Dar-ul-aman. Therefore muslims are obligated by their religion to defend their country if anyone attacks it - even if they are muslims - as they have a covenant in the form of the constitution.

This applies to muslims living in any other country. If the American constitution / law allows freedom of religion, and he is a citizen of America. He is obligated to defend his country against aggression as well. Of course, if a country DOES NOT provide freedom of religion, then there is a problem. But there are hardly any countries that do not provide this. (ironically China is one such country)

If militant come across the border in Kashmir to kill civilians or politicians and a Muslim soldier in the Indian army fights against them to protect his countrymen and dies in the process he is shaheed. These militants are doing this even when freedom of religion is guaranteed. So obviously its not a Jihad but a political fight. Believe me even if India or IA becomes Muslim majority, it would still be the same situation. Except there would be some new reason to fight then.


Ofcourse as a muslim I care about muslims around the world for their well being. Infact I care for all the humans around the world, including non-muslims.

In case you didnt know, the word ummah by definition means ALL people from the time of prophet muhammad (SAW) till the last person. And that includes muslims and non-muslims. So when we make dua for ummat-e-muhammad, that includes non-muslims as well.

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## graphican

EjazR said:


> Indian first? muslim first? Well do we belong to our mum or our dad first?



This is what Zakir Niak Said. I accept that. So every Muslim in India should identify himself a Muslim and Indian and so they should associate themselves with Ummah as much as they do with India. Right?


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## EagleEyes

haawk said:


> if they dont want to live there they can sell the land and can go to pakistan.....but the land belongs to indialol:



The land belongs to Kashmir state, not India. India simply has the illegitimate occupation over the land of Kashmir. Why should we accept people of Kashmir? Why should they leave their state? Because India occupies their state? No.


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## Tango25

Stop dreaming graphican. Anyone who knows the first thing about Middle-eastern politics knows that pan-Islamism is a virtual myth, the refrain of Al-Qaida type fringe groups to justify their violence. 

The Iranians loath the Arabs, and the Arabs loath South Asians. Turkey is a secular country whose citizens put their country first every day. 

The people of Indonesia and Malaysia do the same. 

Only in countries like Pakistan, do these ideas acquire credibility in the mainstream. Divorced as they are from their own traditions and history, they look up to the middle-east for a sense of false identity.

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## dabong1

There where pakistan flags flying in indian occupied kashmir on pakistans independence day and indian flags being burned on indians independence day.......yeah the kashmiris must really love india


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## Spring Onion

dabong1 said:


> There where pakistan flags flying in indian occupied kashmir on pakistans independence day and indian flags being burned on indians independence day.......yeah the kashmiris must really love india



And the Assamies too


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## A1Kaid

It is so pathetic that no body until now has decided to comment, and that this very gruesome and horrific event that recently took place in Kashmir has not been given attention...Absolutely pathetic.


Today, early in the morning as I was reading the New York Times Online -World Section I came across this absolutely horrific, barbaric, and gruesome story. It is very overwhelming and disturbing. What is even more disgusting is there are still people in our country that wish to 'negotiate' or wish to meet the Indian's at the diplomatic round table, those people are most likely down right spineless jellyfish who fail to recognize the barbarity and all things below human decency that has flourished in Kashmir since Indian occupation 63 years ago.

I said this before I'll say it again, The War was declared a long time ago. The war has not ended, hostilities have not ceased. Pakistan ought to increase liberation activities in Kashmir and supply training and arms to Kashmiris. This weak, spineless, corrupt, pos government in Islamabad ought to be removed...The Pakistani military must remain concentrated on Kashmir, the war is not over I repeat the war is not over. InshAllah I myself and others will be given an opportunity to participate in this noble cause.

Crush Hindustan.


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## SSGPA1

sensenreason said:


> So the question, I posed was ..."how are you so sure that they will vote for Pakistan and not choose any other option"



Originally there were two options, one to go with Pakistan and the other to go with India ... now people are talking of a third option also which is an independent Kashmir.

Pakistan has no problem with any option as long as the people of Kashmir make that choice.

Kashmiris will either go for complete independence or Pakistan, going with India may be an option for some regions but most will be against India.


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## SSGPA1

toxic_pus said:


> Contrary to the popular belief in Pakistan, it is actually Pakistan which reneged on UN resolution. India stands on a firm legal ground.



That firm legal ground is actually as weak as paper so don't count on it. Fact remains that majority of Kashmiris don't want anything to do with India.


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## Bhushan

WebMaster said:


> The land belongs to Kashmir state, not India. *India simply has the illegitimate occupation* over the land of Kashmir. Why should we accept people of Kashmir? Why should they leave their state? Because India occupies their state? No.



Kashmir wanted wanted to remain an independent principality and tried to avoid accession to either country. Then Pakistan invaded Kashmir in 1947 .Fearing that his forces would be unable to withstand the assault, the Maharaja Hari Singh asked for Indian military assistance. India set a condition that Kashmir must accede to India for it to receive assistance. Whereupon the Government of India recognized the accession of the erstwhile princely state to India, and was considered the new Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir, Indian troops were sent to the state to defend it against the Pakistani forces. 

*That way Pakistan simply has the illegitimate occupation over the land of Kashmir not India. *


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## Bhushan

grey boy 2 said:


> Oh, please, now you want to talk about 16 century?
> 
> BTW, were India part of it? Guess not?
> 
> Will it be better to talk about 1962 China-Indo war?
> 
> Thanks for inviting China for a nice cake walk!! HAHAHA



Cut the crap and behave with more maturity king of rants


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## Bhushan

Interesting article

*Kashmiris on a date with their virtual love  City of Joy*

All through the 60 years of his life, Kolkata was quite different from many other places Sonawala Mir had seen on television. A resident of a remote village in Kupwara district of Jammu and Kashmir, the images on TV allured him, as he dreamt of a whistle-blowing train moving into the Howrah station.

Nearly a week ago, he lived his dream when he left home as a part of the Sadhbhavana XI, a motivational tour organised under the aegis of the 17 th Infantry Brigade of the Dagger Division by the 16th Battalion, the Jammu and Kashmir Light Infantry.

His co-passenger, 55-year-old Ghulam Sheikhs face glows with a child-like animation as he remembers how three days ago, when he first landed at the Howrah station. I had seen pictures of the Howrah Bridge on TV. My heart lept when I saw it for real, says Sheikh.

For the 15 elderly people from Naugam region in Kupwara, Kolkata has more to it than just the magnificent Howrah Bridge  the best fish in India, steamer ride in Hooghly, just to name a few. We have always had a close links with Kolkata. Several of our relatives used to come here to sell shawls, says Mir.

And stories about the city, its warmth and cultural milieu, were among the ones that lighted up evenings for Mir and his friends in their villages. There were several contract labourers from Bengal in our area. We have fond memories of our interaction with them, says sexagenarian Mir Mohammad Tanchi.

The Kashmiri visitors remember Bengali tourists also. Bengali tourists used to throng Kashmir, though there arent many from Bengal who come visiting now. Over the years, the number dwindled due to terrorism. But now theres no reason why they should fear visiting Kashmir, says Mir.

Kashmir, assert the visitors, is as safe, as hassle-free, as other Indian states are. The past still haunts, though. Something that still echoes among the repeated assurances of peace.

We want to live in peace. We want peace in the Valley, says Ghulam Hasan Mir, a schoolteacher. The terror, they say, went away with the 90s. Those were the bad days. We wouldnt leave home, lived on little food, recounts Tanchi.

Children too, were not sent to schools under the shadow of insurgency. Before the conversation turns grim, however, an effusive Mir breaks in. Whatever attacks and problems are reported in Kashmir are a handiwork of the people of enemy countries. Kashmiris carry their loyalty only for India, he asserts.

Kolkata, apart from the Victoria Memorial and its British swords, is a model city for several of them. We want our children to grow up like children in Kolkata do. Disciplined, smart and self-assured, says Tanchi, referring to the Army School students they observed during their stay. Schools are more organised here. Education, sport, cultural activities everything is encouraged by the school. We just hope things turn out to be the same in our villages, says Mir.

The organisers are hopeful too. We want people from the once strife-torn and shunned Kashmir to identify with the rest of the country and vice-versa, says Major Vipul Yadav, 16 J&K Light Infantry, who accompanied the fifteen on the tour, which also had Jammu and Lucknow in its itinerary.

Fits right in to the spirit of the tour.

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## riju78

dabong1 said:


> There where pakistan flags flying in indian occupied kashmir on pakistans independence day and indian flags being burned on indians independence day.......yeah the kashmiris must really love india


 
please google 'Shabir Ahmad Malik' and you will see the colour of the flag!!!!!!!


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## EjazR

graphican said:


> This is what Zakir Niak Said. I accept that. So every Muslim in India should identify himself a Muslim and Indian and so they should associate themselves with Ummah as much as they do with India. Right?



Yes, as any other nation should and extend co-operation to other nations. In today's terminology we call it humanitarian principles, in Islam its called _ummatpan_ and was a bedorck for Islamic civilization much before western nations applied it to their own societies. But conceptually it is exactly the same. Unfotunately we have forgotten this.

I quote the last two paras from my previous post




> Ofcourse as a muslim I care about muslims around the world for their well being. Infact I care for all the humans around the world, including non-muslims.
> 
> In case you didnt know, the word ummah by definition means ALL people from the time of prophet muhammad (SAW) till the last person till judgement day. And that includes muslims and non-muslims. So when we make dua for ummat-e-muhammad, that includes non-muslims as well


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## DesiGuy

aimarraul said:


> china's territory is still 3 times bigger than india's........i don't know much about the history ,china probably took the whole tibet from india thousands years agowhat real matter is where you are and what you are capable now





when it comes to tibet, or Xinding, (I am sorry if i spell wrong, since chines names are hard to say or read), you guys always back up, because you know, THAT IS NOT YOUR LAND.


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## Halaku Khan

Asim Aquil said:


> As a matter of principle? What the Indian constitution stands for breaking contracts and treaties?
> 
> The plebiscite would involve the general people not just separatists. It's India that's not showing guts because no one would vote for them. Contesting elections? What validity does armed hostage takers, rapists and murderers have to organize elections?



1. As per agreement, Pakistan was supposed to begin withdrawing from occupied areas, with the vacated areas to be handed over to local authorities under supervision of UN.

2. Pakistan did not begin withdrawing from Kashmir, as required by the agreement.

3. Consequently, the UN did not inform India about Pakistan's withdrawal.

4. Nor did Pakistan ever protest to the UN asking it to inform India about Pakistan's withdrawal, for the simple reason that the withdrawal never began.

5. Finally, Pakistan threw the whole agreement into the garbage bin by sponsoring terrorism in J&K from 1965 onwards.

6. For all these reasons, the agreement is dead.


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## Bhushan

riju78 said:


> please google 'Shabir Ahmad Malik' and you will see the colour of the flag!!!!!!!


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## dabong1

DesiGuy said:


> oh OK people, for your information,
> 
> 
> Indian Kashmir is much better than the Pakistan Kashmir.
> 
> 
> agree!!!



Have you ever been to kashmir?


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## dabong1

riju78 said:


> please google 'Shabir Ahmad Malik' and you will see the colour of the flag!!!!!!!



You go and google "indian flag burned in kashmir" "pakistan flag hoisted everywhere in indian occupied kashmir"

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## Bhushan

dabong1 said:


> Have you ever been to kashmir?



I have been to Kashmir several times. I have made 2 documentaries on Kashmir.... both on Operation Sadbhavana of Indian Army where i have worked closely with Rashtriya Rifles... specially Romeo Force. I have seen real Kashmir closely. I have seen real villages, met surrendered militants (working as school teachers and social workers), even met a 11 year militant kid nabbed by army.

Kashmir wants peace. Local Kashmiris want employment and peace. Today tourism is the biggest source of employment in Kashmir. So an average Kashmiri want tourists. But some elements are there who spread hatred only to gain some political mileage. And of course the external help to these militants is the biggest problem.If these external powers leave Kashmir on its own, within couple of years it will be as good and peaceful as any other Indian tate.

Let me tell you with full confidence that yes Kashmir is in really good state.

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## paritosh

dabong1 said:


> You go and google "indian flag burned in kashmir" "pakistan flag hoisted everywhere in indian occupied kashmir"



see...it makes news because it is unusual...believe me there are separatists and we all agree to that...there are pro-indian people in kashmir too...but majority just want a good life...they want their civic facilities to function.There is enough hot-blood in Kashmir to not let the fire quench.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Halaku Khan said:


> 1. As per agreement, Pakistan was supposed to begin withdrawing from occupied areas, with the vacated areas to be handed over to local authorities under supervision of UN.
> 
> 2. Pakistan did not begin withdrawing from Kashmir, as required by the agreement.
> 
> 3. Consequently, the UN did not inform India about Pakistan's withdrawal.
> 
> 4. Nor did Pakistan ever protest to the UN asking it to inform India about Pakistan's withdrawal, for the simple reason that the withdrawal never began.


The above points have been discussed here: http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...es/7904-kashmir-resolutions-explanations.html

And the UN rapporteur was never able to obtain India's agreement on the troop levels to be left behind by both sides, a fact to which he attested in his letter posted on the thread, along with criticizing India's position on the issue.



> 5. Finally, Pakistan threw the whole agreement into the garbage bin by sponsoring terrorism in J&K from 1965 onwards.
> 
> 6. For all these reasons, the agreement is dead.



The agreement was thrown into the garbage bin by Nehru, with his unilateral statements about the status quo being the only solution and his attempts to pass off (fraudulent and rigged) elections as a substitute for the UN mandated plebiscite.

These statements of Nehru are also detailed in the thread linked above.

Finally, the UNSC resolutions do not become defunct on someones sayso, nor do they have an expiration date. The Simla agreement once more endorsed the fact that the UNSC resolutions would be relevant:

*(i) That the principles and purposes of the Charter of the United Nations shall govern the relations between the two countries; *


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## Halaku Khan

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And the UN rapporteur was never able to obtain India's agreement on the troop levels to be left behind by both sides, a fact to which he attested in his letter posted on the thread, along with criticizing India's position on the issue.
> 
> .....
> 
> Finally, the UNSC resolutions do not become defunct on someones sayso, nor do they have an expiration date. The Simla agreement once more endorsed the fact that the UNSC resolutions would be relevant:
> 
> *(i) That the principles and purposes of the Charter of the United Nations shall govern the relations between the two countries; *



India had not committed to any specific troop levels in the agreement - however, Pakistan was committed to withdrawing ALL its troops.

As regards statements of the rapporteur, he was speculating on what India may or may not have done if Pakistan had in fact lived up to his commitments, which it did not. Such speculations have no legal weight whatsoever.

Nehru's alleged remarks also would not enter into the legal picture. What is important is what was written down and signed, and the actual actions taken.

The first breach of the agreement was Pakistan's failure to withdraw, and so the onus of trashing the agreement lies on Pakistan. The terrorism from 1965 onwards was a further violation, which has created a situation not envisaged in the agreement. 

When one party breaks an agreement and creates a situation not envisaged in the agreement, the agreement no longer becomes binding on the other party. That is what has happened to the UN agreement.

The Simla agreement commits both parties to settle the issue bilaterally. That is well and good and does not contradict the UN charter. However this bilateral settlement cannot be on the basis of a defunct agreement.


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## brahmastra

dabong1 said:


> You go and google "indian flag burned in kashmir" "pakistan flag hoisted everywhere in indian occupied kashmir"



why don'y you google "pakistan flag burned in balochistan" first.


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## asq

toxic_pus said:


> Actually it can. The Kashmir resolutions are under Chaper VI of UN Charter, making these resolutions, 'advisory' and not 'compulsory' in nature.
> 
> Source
> 
> I will also make another point here. The allegation that it was India, that refused demilitarization of Kashmir or that it reneged on UN resolution is actually a subterfuge.There is a second side to every story.
> 
> As per Document 1100, Para 75, Pakistan was to '*agree to withdraw its troops from that State*' and '*use its best endeavor to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting*'. UN was then to notify the GoI '*that the tribesmen and Pakistan nationals referred to in Part II A 2 hereof have withdrawn*' and '*that the Pakistan forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir*'. Only after receipt of this intimation, the GoI was '*to begin to withdraw the bulk of their forces from the State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission*'
> 
> Source
> 
> More important than Pakistan 'agreeing' to demilitarize the Kashmir region, was the fact that Pakistan had to completely remove 'the tribesmen and Pakistan nationals'. It is this presence of 'the tribesmen and Pakistan nationals' and further infiltration of Pakistani nationals into the region, that had prompted India to insist on the presence of a higher number of Indian troops in Kashmir - more than the number that UN had suggested.
> 
> 
> Contrary to the popular belief in Pakistan, it is actually Pakistan which reneged on UN resolution. India stands on a firm legal ground.



All Indians keep mentioning tribesmen as they were aliens who entered kashmir. Stop bring tribesmen, they at the time of Muslim league call decided to join Pakistan even this territory was to go back to Afghanistan after 99years, the Durand line, Since All Pashtuns decided to say in Pakistan at it independence, so they were legally Pakistanis and were fighting for their motherland.

Now coming to resolutions, read see for yourself what it says and not what you have written down.

DRAFT 6.2.1948

38 (1948)

47 (1948)

there are many more resolution where this came from, it is funny you post your ideas as if they were on U.N.

Clearly the resolution say that if the force have withdrawn, named tribesmen than Indian must start a process to set up plebiscite plans and procedure and implement with urgency.

But you Indians read and twist it and read and twist it again again. there are billion Indians and billion interpretations of Kashmir resolutions.

You guys do not want peace only talk silly and keep killing innocents, raping women

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## paritosh

brahmastra said:


> why don'y you google "pakistan flag burned in balochistan" first.



a good retort...but the wrong thread.


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## EjazR

LeT issues diktat against watching TV in J&K - India - NEWS - The Times of India

NEW DELHI: The Lashkar-e-Taiba has enforced a new diktat in parts of Jammu and Kashmir; 'Do not watch television.' 

Taking a cue from the Taliban, the Lashkar terrorists operating in Banihal heights have imposed a ban on watching TV- terming it an unislamic activity.

Bearing witness to this fact are the marks on Gulam Nabi's back and legs. The marks are a constant reminder of how the LeT men beat him up for watching TV. ``Unidentified gunmen barged into my house. They broke my TV set and thrashed me," said Ghulam Nabi.

In true Taliban style, the terrorists made sure that no one dare to switch on a television again.

When asked about the LeT's newest diktat a villager said, Six militants barged into our house. Three of them broke my TV and another three hit me.

Lashkar militants have warned villagers of dire consequences if they do not stop watching television. In a recently issued diktat, they have described the 'idiot box' as an epicentre of all problems and blame the same for impregnating evil thoughts in the mind of villagers.

In addition to resorting to violence, the Lashkar men also pasted a pamphlet on the boundary wall of a mosque.

"They say watching TV is a sin. But I ask Muslims all over the world to watch TV. We have not done anything wrong or committed any crime," a villager said.

Security forces in the area describe the Lashkar's newest act as one of frustration and desperation.

IG of Jammu, Ashok Gupta said, These days the television is a very powerful medium which is exposing their lies. So why would they allow it. It is an act of sheer frustration on their part.

But what the LeT does not realise is that their imposition is only causing anger. When asked about the LeTs actions, a villager said, Breaking televisions sets and beating up elderly people is not a part of Jihad. This is evidence enough that the people clearly do not want another Taliban state.


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## Su 30mki

Follow , or you get killed , Taliban style .....


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## glomex

Frustrated ..... Desperate ....these morons will go to any extent .... pushing their version of Smuggled Talibani mentality over Common man....soon we will see and upsurge against these idiots...infact people have started tipping off defence forces and Police about their whereabouts and this helps forces hunt down these morons...


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## arslan_treen

doesnt seem like let style thing .. remeber let was given warning by ttp for being to soft or liberal and then they havent been involved in this kind of activity before most of there activity is based on Armed struggle rather then propaganda or enforcing laws , and then don't think they have much base left in J&k any way to take such a blatant stance , i think we are dealing with some small wannabe group usually happens in places where militancy is strong Like in Ghaza strip where hamas is facing a daunting task of cleaning small vigilante groups with a very hard lined religious approach.
P.s i dont think this news is True any way

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## glomex

^^^
These terrorist organizations will go to any extent to establish their writ.....remember LTTE forced unwilling Tamilians to join forces ....even at the age of 13-14 yrs....

LET is facing challenge in Valley because of some local media channels have been colluding with Administration and help spreading good word around the contribution Armed forces are making towards building up Infrastructure in the state...... and people are willing to go with development rather than bullets.... LET sees this as their delete and so they resort to this stupid measure to stop people from watching TV....and see the facts...


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## Spring Onion

Seems Indians have come up with another bollywood style drama to halt viwership of PTV transimission in Indian Held Jammu and Kashmir.

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## glomex

Jana said:


> Seems Indians have come up with another bollywood style drama to halt viwership of PTV transimission in Indian Held Jammu and Kashmir.



Nut case......

If India wants to Ban PTV in Kashmir...a mere legislation needs to be passed in Jammu and Kashmir Assembly.....and by the way...are we discussing India Banning PTV .....

Read fella...understand...and then reply....

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## dabong1

brahmastra said:


> why don'y you google "pakistan flag burned in balochistan" first.



There all one off incidents unlike in kashmir.


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## dabong1

Bhushan said:


> I have been to Kashmir several times. I have made 2 documentaries on Kashmir.... both on Operation Sadbhavana of Indian Army where i have worked closely with Rashtriya Rifles... specially Romeo Force. I have seen real Kashmir closely. I have seen real villages, met surrendered militants (working as school teachers and social workers), even met a 11 year militant kid nabbed by army.
> 
> Kashmir wants peace. Local Kashmiris want employment and peace. Today tourism is the biggest source of employment in Kashmir. So an average Kashmiri want tourists. But some elements are there who spread hatred only to gain some political mileage. And of course the external help to these militants is the biggest problem.If these external powers leave Kashmir on its own, within couple of years it will be as good and peaceful as any other Indian tate.
> 
> Let me tell you with full confidence that yes Kashmir is in really good state.



Well if your that confident that the kashmirs like indian why not just have a vote like the UN said and going off what your saying india will win hands down and we have no more problems between pakistan and india.

The way i see it is the if the indian army pulls out we have peace and the kashmiris can get on with there lifes.


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## EjazR

dabong1 said:


> Well if your that confident that the kashmirs like indian why not just have a vote like the UN said and going off what your saying india will win hands down and we have no more problems between pakistan and india.
> 
> The way i see it is the if the indian army pulls out we have peace and the kashmiris can get on with there lifes.



Yes we can have a vote, but if only these militants would let Kashmiris to vote freely. Any ex-militant who gives up arms and wants to live peacefully is shot. J&K police officers are shot. Even women and children are not spared. 

Do you know why Kashmiris protest freely against the state but wouldnt dare do the same against militatns. Thats' because they know that sooner or later the state will take action. But if you speak out against the militants, you will get shot.

And ofcourse, you have to get China to give up their occupied territories as well.


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## arihant

dabong1 said:


> Well if your that confident that the kashmirs like indian why not just have a vote like the UN said and going off what your saying india will win hands down and we have no more problems between pakistan and india.
> 
> The way i see it is the if the indian army pulls out we have peace and the kashmiris can get on with there lifes.



For your information, Kashmir was always Independent until you attacked in 1947. Kashmir signed standstill agreement with both states. You always speak about Independent Kashmir and make fool others.


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## asq

haawk said:


> if they dont want to live there they can sell the land and can go to Pakistan.....but the land belongs to indialol:



Your teachers must be Zionist who taught you this kind of inhumane act to use the poverty of people as an excuse to occupy their land. You dude are a soul devoid of mercy.


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## asq

arihant said:


> For your information, Kashmir was always Independent until you attacked in 1947. Kashmir signed standstill agreement with both states. You always speak about Independent Kashmir and make fool others.



You Indians are strange, you always hide the last occupier of indian continent and only talk against Muslims who ruled you and became one of you.

British Raj ruled India and Kashmir for 200 years, where do you get this notion of India/Kashmir being free.

If india was free, why do you hold Independence day on Aug 15t


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## asq

arihant said:


> For your information, Kashmir was always Independent until you attacked in 1947. Kashmir signed standstill agreement with both states. You always speak about Independent Kashmir and make fool others.



You Indians are strange, you always hide the last occupier of indian continent and only talk against Muslims who ruled you and became one of you.

But British Raj ruled India and Kashmir, where do you get this notion of India/Kashmir being free.

If india was free, why do you hold Independence day on Aug 15th.

Till the amnesty international is not allowed in to Kashmir, we the Pakistanis say you dudes are making things up to fool people.


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## asq

glomex said:


> Nut case......
> 
> If India wants to Ban PTV in Kashmir...a mere legislation needs to be passed in Jammu and Kashmir Assembly.....and by the way...are we discussing India Banning PTV .....
> 
> Read fella...understand...and then reply....



You are deliberately trying to ignore the facts, old Indian style.But we know you guys to well to listen to you harping.It is like this?-

Indian agents dressed as Let barge into a local home break TV. 

Blame will than go on Let and the population will be warned of any thing not a spin off by Indian media is not to be watched.


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## gubbi

Jana said:


> Seems Indians have come up with another bollywood style drama to halt viwership of PTV transimission in Indian Held Jammu and Kashmir.





asq said:


> You are deliberately trying to ignore the facts, old Indian style.But we know you guys to well to listen to you harping.It is like this?-
> 
> Indian agents dressed as Let barge into a local home break TV.
> 
> Blame will than go on Let and the population will be warned of any thing not a spin off by Indian media is not to be watched.



Actually we Indians don't have to spend so much efforts or resources and waste our time putting up such an act to ban PTV. It can be done by 'figuratively speaking' a flick of a switch by appropriate authorities in appropriate places!

C'mon, tax your grey matter a little bit more... so much for conspiracy theories. @ Glomex, I like that term...nutcase!

OTOH, didn't some morons issue a 'fatwa' for mandatory wearing of burkhas in Srinagar a few years earlier? We know how it turned out, expect a repeat of that now.


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## rubyjackass

I thought all Pakistani news channels are already banned in India.
??


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## Tango25

Disgusting. These extremists have captured all the mosques and religious establishments in the valley. They need to be booted out asap.


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## EjazR

Tango25 said:


> Disgusting. These extremists have captured all the mosques and religious establishments in the valley. They need to be booted out asap.



whao, where did u get that from? These guys run and hide just like bandits. They don't have control of mosques or religious establishments in J&K. If they stayed in a place for more than half hour the police will teach them a lesson. So stop with the meaningless generalisations


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## Tango25

^You are right, the LeT itself does not control mosques in the J&K, but allied groups with a similar agenda do.


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## dabong1

arihant said:


> For your information, Kashmir was always Independent until you attacked in 1947. Kashmir signed standstill agreement with both states. You always speak about Independent Kashmir and make fool others.



Yeah yeah.......if the kashmiri love indian so much why dont you put it to the test and have a vote.


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## dabong1

EjazR said:


> Yes we can have a vote, but if only these militants would let Kashmiris to vote freely.



Once the indian army in kashmir either withdraws or gives up arms then the freedom fighters will do the same.




EjazR said:


> Do you know why Kashmiris protest freely against the state but wouldnt dare do the same against militatns. Thats' because they know that sooner or later the state will take action. But if you speak out against the militants, you will get shot.



They dont protest against the freedom fighters becauce they support them.



EjazR said:


> And ofcourse, you have to get China to give up their occupied territories as well.



Or the kashmirs can do that for themselves when they are free of india.......The no 1 priority is to get rid of the indian occupation,the chinese issue is way down on the list.


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## glomex

^^^

Ask your Pakistani army to Withdraw from So Called AJK...where you guys are ruled by Pakistan....Your president is an EX Army man From Pakistan army...


Wow...what a Azadi.....

Being ruled by Puppets...


Your so called Mujahidins are known as Terrorists in Kashmir....and People fight with them and Give information about them to Police and security forces....

Thats the reason these morons are getting Pissed off...and now started giving Fatwas like ...Don't watch TV...its un-Islamic....


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## asq

gubbi said:


> *Actually we Indians don't have to spend so much efforts or resources and waste our time putting up such an act to ban PTV. It can be done by 'figuratively speaking' a flick of a switch by appropriate authorities in appropriate places!
> *
> C'mon, tax your grey matter a little bit more... so much for conspiracy theories. @ Glomex, I like that term...nutcase!
> 
> OTOH, didn't some morons issue a 'fatwa' for mandatory wearing of burkhas in Srinagar a few years earlier? We know how it turned out, expect a repeat of that now.



What an understatement of the facts, this must be understatement of the millennium.

You Indians have 500,000 soldiers in the valley and you say that you Indians do not have to spend resources and make efforts.

And than you pick on isolated cases of fatwa by some disgruntled dude who have axe to grind with occupation and take it literally.

Let me give you Indian a word of advise. Practice what you preach and get all your Army out of the Valley and allow Kashmiris the right to choose.

Or the other choice is, stop claiming to be the biggest Democracy of the world and for once speak the truth and call India a country for Hindus, Many of your politicians and people say that any way.

Watch this video and see for yourself that if this is true. Now do not tell me this is isolated case, look at the gathering of extremist Hindus. 


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8817218285615987893&q=pakistan&#37;27s+war+with+india


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## SSGPA1

EjazR said:


> Do you know why Kashmiris protest freely against the state but wouldnt dare do the same against militatns. Thats' because they know that sooner or later the state will take action. But if you speak out against the militants, you will get shot.




Sorry it is the other way around ... I don't think mujahideens carry anything other than weapons all of the rest is most likely provided by the Kashimiris supporting these guys. There is a lot of support for insurgency in Kashmir therefore no protests.

A point has come in Kashmiris' lives where they don't care about living therefore there is no fear left of the Indian forces ... what more can Indian Army do?


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## Tango25

^Actally, its because the protesters are brainwashed by religious propaganda.


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## dabong1

Tango25 said:


> ^Actally, its because the protesters are brainwashed by religious propaganda.



Off course they are


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## Tango25

dabong1 said:


> Off course they are



Yes they are. You must be blind or deliberately shutting your eyes not to know this.


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## asq

haawk said:


> because china has replaced US,,,,,,new boyfriend,,,,,,has to support him or will not have a boyfriend at all



Hawk you talk silly when saying (NEW BOY FRIEND). 

It is not only mannerism you Indians lack, you lack scruples, you lack practicing equality, and most of all you lack practicing true Democracy.

China's history is quite clean as compare to you guys who had their freedom only 60 years ago.

China has taught not only you but Europe all the good things, i can name many but i know that you know it, but deliberately try to close your eyes.

So all will reap as they sow.


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## arihant

asq said:


> China's history is quite clean as compare to you guys who had their freedom only 60 years ago.



What about yourself.


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## haawk

asq said:


> Hawk you talk silly when saying (NEW BOY FRIEND).
> 
> It is not only mannerism you Indians lack, you lack scruples, you lack practicing equality, and most of all you lack practicing true Democracy.
> 
> China's history is quite clean as compare to you guys who had their freedom only 60 years ago.
> 
> China has taught not only you but Europe all the good things, i can name many but i know that you know it, but deliberately try to close your eyes.
> 
> So all will reap as they sow.




the entire thread has become silly because you guts can't stop making every thread into an n-th indo pak war thread ,,,,,,its supposed to be a thread to give respect to the indian soldier who s guarding the border and look at where it is going ...so i am just fed up of another kashmir thread .....and am just posting the ever repeating arguments that take place in a different way so that atleast some replies would atleast find new shape(with the never ending old repeated points)......


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## dabong1

glomex said:


> Ask your Pakistani army to Withdraw from So Called AJK...where you guys are ruled by Pakistan....Your president is an EX Army man From Pakistan army...



Yours used to make missiles and bombs for india




glomex said:


> Wow...what a Azadi.....
> 
> Being ruled by Puppets...



Dont see no mass movement of people against the govt.




glomex said:


> Your so called Mujahidins are known as Terrorists in Kashmir....and People fight with them and Give information about them to Police and security forces....
> 
> Thats the reason these morons are getting Pissed off...and now started giving Fatwas like ...Don't watch TV...its un-Islamic....



Brainwashed


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## Developereo

www.outlookindia.com | Azadi
by Arundhati Roy 

Not surprisingly, the voice that the Government of India has tried so hard to silence in Kashmir has massed into a deafening roar. Hundreds of thousands of unarmed people have come out to reclaim their cities, their streets and mohallas. They have simply overwhelmed the heavily armed security forces by their sheer numbers, and with a remarkable display of raw courage.

Reactions: Like Like:
10


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## bandit

dabong1 said:


> Well if your that confident that the kashmirs like indian why not just have a vote like the UN said and going off what your saying india will win hands down and we have no more problems between pakistan and india.
> 
> The way i see it is the if the indian army pulls out we have peace and the kashmiris can get on with there lifes.



No need to have a vote in our own territory. We just dont distribute land to anybody who starts sulking and asking for land. GOI stand is clear, its our land, our people, if you start having votes wherever a few people start demanding it it applies to your regions as well, Pakistan hopes India allows a vote and Kashmiris vote for it and they get the Land, wet dreams, I doubt Kashmiris would like to go to Pakistan.
Hiding behind the false cry of muslim brotherhood is a charade by Pakistan as there are plenty other muslims that could use their support, but they dont get any, why, Pakistan doesnt gain any benefit from that !
So lets call a spade a spade and accept you have your eyes on the Prized land and nothing about Humanitarian or brotherhood crap you keep throwing about.


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## gubbi

asq said:


> What an understatement of the facts, this must be understatement of the millennium.
> 
> You *Indians have 500,000 soldiers in the valley* and you say that you Indians do not have to spend resources and make efforts.
> 
> And than you pick on isolated cases of fatwa by some disgruntled dude who have axe to grind with occupation and take it literally.


Incase you missed the bus, heres a magic mantra for an effective COIN operation : 'Boots on the ground'!!
Morons and bas**rds strike anywhere anytime due to certain advantages they enjoy. Inorder to nullify that advantage, the primary job of a COIN force is to put more boots on the ground. Plain and simple.
Oh and some religious fanatics actually follow the 'fatwas' to the 'T' and end up causing harm to the population. Case in point being the acid attacks on pretty young girls who refused to wear the barbaric veil in Kashmir!!



> Let me give you Indian a word of advise. Practice what you preach and *get all your Army out of the Valley* and allow Kashmiris the right to choose.
> 
> Or the other choice is, stop claiming to be the biggest Democracy of the world and for once speak the truth and call India a country for Hindus, Many of your politicians and people say that any way.



Let me tell you this: "Aint gonna happen!!" Try as hard as you might, it simply aint gonna happen! Just like kids don't understand whats best for them, sometimes certain populations don't get whats best for them, and during such times, the Govt steps in to rein in the horses!
Its a pity that you will 'neva eva' understand the pulse of the democratic India, indoctrinated as you are in loathing anything 'Hindu India'!



> Watch this video and see for yourself that if this is true. Now do not tell me this is isolated case, look at the gathering of extremist Hindus.
> 
> 
> VHP extremists from India



one word: BS (I mean those VHP morons!)


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## dabong1

bandit said:


> No need to have a vote in our own territory. We just dont distribute land to anybody who starts sulking and asking for land. GOI stand is clear, its our land, our people, if you start having votes wherever a few people start demanding it it applies to your regions as well, Pakistan hopes India allows a vote and Kashmiris vote for it and they get the Land, wet dreams, I doubt Kashmiris would like to go to Pakistan.
> Hiding behind the false cry of muslim brotherhood is a charade by Pakistan as there are plenty other muslims that could use their support, but they dont get any, why, Pakistan doesnt gain any benefit from that !
> So lets call a spade a spade and accept you have your eyes on the Prized land and nothing about Humanitarian or brotherhood crap you keep throwing about.



Its our land not yours......jihad for peace in kashmir


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## bandit

dabong1 said:


> Its our land not yours......jihad for peace in kashmir



So whos gonna do the "JIhad for peace"...I m sure you 're coming along since you believe in it so deeply


----------



## Developereo

*Kashmir Azadi
It's the only thing the Kashmiri wants. Denial is delusion.
Arundhati Roy *

For the past sixty days or so, since about the end of June, the people of Kashmir have been free. Free in the most profound sense. They have shrugged off the terror of living their lives in the gun-sights of half-a-million heavily-armed soldiers in the most densely militarised zone in the world.

After 18 years of administering a military occupation, the Indian government's worst nightmare has come true. 
The Indian government's worst nightmare has come true. Having declared that the militant movement has been crushed, it is now faced with a non-violent mass protest, but not the kind it knows how to manage. 


Having declared that the militant movement has been crushed, it is now faced with a non-violent mass protest, but not the kind it knows how to manage. This one is nourished by people's memory of years of repression in which tens of thousands have been killed, thousands have been 'disappeared', hundreds of thousands tortured, injured, raped and humiliated. That kind of rage, once it finds utterance, cannot easily be tamed, re-bottled and sent back to where it came from.

For all these years, the Indian State, known amongst the knowing as the Deep State, has done everything it can to subvert, suppress, represent, misrepresent, discredit, interpret, intimidate, purchaseand simply snuff out the voice of the Kashmiri people. It has used money (lots of it), violence (lots of it), disinformation, propaganda, torture, elaborate networks of collaborators and informers, terror, imprisonment, blackmail and rigged elections to subdue what democrats would call "the will of the people". But now the Deep State, as Deep States eventually tend to, has tripped on its own hubris and bought into its own publicity. It made the mistake of believing that domination was victory, that the 'normalcy' it had enforced through the barrel of a gun was indeed normal, and that the people's sullen silence was acquiescence.

The well-endowed peace industry, speaking on people's behalf, informed us that "Kashmiris are tired of violence and want peace". What kind of peace they were willing to settle for was never clarified. Bollywood's cache of Kashmir/Muslim-terrorist films has brainwashed most Indians into believing that all of Kashmir's sorrows could be laid at the door of evil, people-hating terrorists.

To anybody who cared to ask, or, more importantly, to listen, it was always clear that even in their darkest moments, people in Kashmir had kept the fires burning and that it was not peace they yearned for, but freedom too. Over the last two months, the carefully confected picture of an innocent people trapped between 'two guns', both equally hated, has, pardon the pun, been shot to hell.

A sudden twist of fate, an ill-conceived move over the transfer of 100 acres of state forest land to the Amarnath Shrine Board (which manages the annual Hindu pilgrimage to a cave deep in the Kashmir Himalayas) suddenly became the equivalent of tossing a lit match into a barrel of petrol. Until 1989, the Amarnath pilgrimage used to attract about 20,000 people who travelled to the Amarnath cave over a period of about two weeks. In 1990, when the overtly Islamic militant uprising in the Valley coincided with the spread of virulent Hindutva in the Indian plains, the number of pilgrims began to increase exponentially. By 2008, more than 5,00,000 pilgrims visited the Amarnath cave in large groups, their passage often sponsored by Indian business houses. 
Hadn't anybody noticed that in Kashmir even minor protests about civic issues like water and electricity inevitably turned into demands for azadi? To threaten them with mass starvation amounted to committing political suicide. 


To many people in the Valley, this dramatic increase in numbers was seen as an aggressive political statement by an increasingly Hindu-fundamentalist Indian State. Rightly or wrongly, the land transfer was viewed as the thin edge of the wedge. It triggered an apprehension that it was the beginning of an elaborate plan to build Israeli-style settlements, and change the demography of the Valley. Days of massive protest forced the Valley to shut down completely. Within hours, the protests spread from the cities to villages. Young stone-pelters took to the streets and faced armed police who fired straight at them, killing several. For people as well as the government, it resurrected memories of the uprising in the early '90s. Throughout the weeks of protest, hartal and police firing, while the Hindutva publicity machine charged Kashmiris with committing every kind of communal excess, the 5,00,000 Amarnath pilgrims completed their pilgrimage, not just unhurt, but touched by the hospitality they had been shown by local people.

Eventually, taken completely by surprise at the ferocity of the response, the government revoked the land transfer. But by then the land transfer had become what senior separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani called a "non-issue".

Massive protests against the revocation erupted in Jammu. There, too, the issue snowballed into something much bigger. Hindus began to raise issues of neglect and discrimination by the Indian State. (For some odd reason they blamed Kashmiris for that neglect.) The protests led to the blockading of the Jammu-Srinagar highway, the only functional road link between Kashmir and India. The army was called out to clear the highway and allow safe passage of trucks between Jammu and Srinagar. But incidents of violence against Kashmiri truckers were being reported from as far away as Punjab where there was no protection at all. As a result, Kashmiri truckers, fearing for their lives, refused to drive on the highway. Truckloads of perishable fresh fruit and Valley produce began to rot. It became very obvious that the blockade had caused the situation to spin out of control. The government announced that the blockade had been cleared and that trucks were going through. Embedded sections of the Indian media, quoting the inevitable 'Intelligence' sources, began to refer to it as a 'perceived' blockade, and even to suggest that there had never been one.

But it was too late for those games, the damage had been done. It had been demonstrated in no uncertain terms to people in Kashmir that they lived on sufferance, and that if they didn't behave themselves they could be put under siege, starved, deprived of essential commodities and medical supplies. 
This time around, the people are in charge. The armed militants, who through the worst years of repression were seen carrying the torch of azadi, are content to let people do the fighting. The separatist leaders are not leaders so much as followers. 


The real blockade became a psychological one. The last fragile link between India and Kashmir was all but snapped. 

To expect matters to end there was of course absurd. Hadn't anybody noticed that in Kashmir even minor protests about civic issues like water and electricity inevitably turned into demands for azadi? To threaten them with mass starvation amounted to committing political suicide.

Not surprisingly, the voice that the Government of India has tried so hard to silence in Kashmir has massed into a deafening roar. Hundreds of thousands of unarmed people have come out to reclaim their cities, their streets and mohallas. They have simply overwhelmed the heavily armed security forces by their sheer numbers, and with a remarkable display of raw courage.

Raised in a playground of army camps, checkposts and bunkers, with screams from torture chambers for a soundtrack, the young generation has suddenly discovered the power of mass protest, and above all, the dignity of being able to straighten their shoulders and speak for themselves, represent themselves. For them it is nothing short of an epiphany. They're in full flow, not even the fear of death seems to hold them back. And once that fear has gone, of what use is the largest or second-largest army in the world? What threat does it hold? Who should know that better than the people of India who won their independence in the way that they did?

The circumstances in Kashmir being what they are, it is hard for the spin doctors to fall back on the same old same old; to claim that it's all the doing of Pakistan's ISI, or that people are being coerced by militants. Since the '30s onwards, the question of who can claim the right to represent that elusive thing known as "Kashmiri sentiment" has been bitterly contested. Was it Sheikh Abdullah? The Muslim Conference? Who is it today? The mainstream political parties? The Hurriyat? The militants? This time around, the people are in charge. There have been mass rallies in the past, but none in recent memory that have been so sustained and widespread. The mainstream political parties of Kashmirthe National Conference, the People's Democratic Partyfeted by the Deep State and the Indian media despite the pathetic voter turnout in election after election appear dutifully for debates in New Delhi's TV studios, but can't muster the courage to appear on the streets of Kashmir. The armed militants who, through the worst years of repression, were seen as the only ones carrying the torch of azadi forward, if they are around at all, seem to be content to take a backseat and let people do the fighting for a change. 

The separatist leaders who do appear and speak at the rallies are not leaders so much as followers, being guided by the phenomenal spontaneous energy of a caged, enraged people that has exploded on Kashmir's streets. 
Replace the word Islam with the word Hindutva, replace the word Pakistan with Hindustan, replace the sea of green flags with saffron ones and you have BJP's nightmare vision of an ideal India. 


The leaders, such as they are, have been presented with a full-blown revolution. The only condition seems to be that they have to do as the people say. If they say things that people do not wish to hear, they are gently persuaded to come out, publicly apologise and correct their course. This applies to all of them, including Syed Ali Shah Geelani who at a public rally recently proclaimed himself the movement's only leader. It was a monumental political blunder that very nearly shattered the fragile new alliance between the various factions of the struggle. Within hours he retracted his statement. Like it or not, this is democracy. No democrat can pretend otherwise.

Day after day, hundreds of thousands of people swarm around places that hold terrible memories for them. They demolish bunkers, break through cordons of concertina wire and stare straight down the barrels of soldiers' machine-guns, saying what very few in India want to hear. Hum kya chahte? Azadi! We Want Freedom. And, it has to be said, in equal numbers and with equal intensity: Jeevey Jeevey Pakistan. Long live Pakistan.

That sound reverberates through the Valley like the drumbeat of steady rain on a tin roof, like the roll of thunder before an electric storm. It's the plebiscite that was never held, the referendum that has been indefinitely postponed.

On August 15, India's Independence Day, the city of Srinagar shut down completely. The Bakshi stadium where Governor N.N. Vohra hoisted the flag was empty except for a few officials. Hours later, Lal Chowk, the nerve centre of the city (where in 1992, Murli Manohar Joshi, BJP leader and mentor of the controversial "Hinduisation" of children's history textbooks, started a tradition of flag-hoisting by the Border Security Force), was taken over by thousands of people who hoisted the Pakistani flag and wished each other "Happy belated Independence Day" (Pakistan celebrates Independence on August 14) and "Happy Slavery Day". Humour, obviously, has survived India's many torture centres and Abu Ghraibs in Kashmir.

On August 16, more than 3,00,000 people marched to Pampore, to the village of Hurriyat leader Sheikh Abdul Aziz, who was shot down in cold blood five days earlier. He was part of a massive march to the Line of Control demanding that since the Jammu road had been blocked, it was only logical that the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad highway be opened for goods and people, the way it used to be before Kashmir was partitioned. 


On August 18, an equal number gathered in Srinagar in the huge TRC grounds (Tourist Reception Centre, not the Truth and Reconciliation Committee) close to the United Nations Military Observers Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP) to submit a memorandum asking for three thingsthe end to Indian rule, the deployment of a UN Peacekeeping Force and an investigation into two decades of war crimes committed with almost complete impunity by the Indian army and police.

The day before the rally the Deep State was hard at work. 
What will free Kashmir be like? Will the hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri Pandits living in exile be allowed to return, paid reparations for their losses? 


A senior journalist friend called to say that late in the afternoon the home secretary called a high-level meeting in New Delhi. Also present were the defence secretary and the intelligence chiefs. The purpose of the meeting, he said, was to brief the editors of TV news channels that the government had reason to believe that the insurrection was being managed by a small splinter cell of the ISI and to request the channels to keep this piece of exclusive, highly secret intelligence in mind while covering (or preferably not covering?) the news from Kashmir. Unfortunately for the Deep State, things have gone so far that TV channels, were they to obey those instructions, would run the risk of looking ridiculous. Thankfully, it looks as though this revolution will, after all, be televised.

On the night of August 17, the police sealed the city. Streets were barricaded, thousands of armed police manned the barriers. The roads leading into Srinagar were blocked. For the first time in eighteen years, the police had to plead with Hurriyat leaders to address the rally at the TRC grounds instead of marching right up to the UNMOGIP office which is on Gupkar Road, Srinagar's Green Zone where, for years, the Indian Establishment has barricaded itself in style and splendour.

On the morning of the 18th, people began pouring into Srinagar from villages and towns across the Valley. In trucks, tempos, jeeps, buses and on foot. Once again, barriers were broken and people reclaimed their city. The police were faced with a choice of either stepping aside or executing a massacre. They stepped aside. Not a single bullet was fired.

The city floated on a sea of smiles. There was ecstasy in the air. Everyone had a banner; houseboat owners, traders, students, lawyers, doctors. One said, "We are all prisoners, set us free." Another said, "Democracy without freedom is Demon-crazy". Demon Crazy. That was a good one. Perhaps he was referring to the twisted logic of a country that needed to commit communal carnage in order to bolster its secular credentials. Or the insanity that permits the world's largest democracy to administer the world's largest military occupation and continue to call itself a democracy.

There was a green flag on every lamp post, every roof, every bus stop and on the top of chinar trees. A big one fluttered outside the All India Radio building. Road signs to Hazratbal, Batmaloo, Sopore were painted over. Rawalpindi they said. Or simply Pakistan. It would be a mistake to assume that the public expression of affection for Pakistan automatically translates into a desire to accede to Pakistan. Some of it has to do with gratitude for the supportcynical or otherwisefor what Kashmiris see as a freedom struggle and the Indian State sees as a terrorist campaign. It also has to do with mischief. With saying and doing what galls India, the enemy, most of all. (It's easy to scoff at the idea of a 'freedom struggle' that wishes to distance itself from a country that is supposed to be a democracy and align itself with another that has, for the most part, been ruled by military dictators. A country whose army has committed genocide in what is now Bangladesh. A country that is even now being torn apart by its own ethnic war. These are important questions, but right now perhaps it's more useful to wonder what this so-called democracy did in Kashmir to make people hate it so.)

Everywhere there were Pakistani flags, everywhere the cry, Pakistan se rishta kya? La ilaha illa llah. What is our bond with Pakistan? There is no god but Allah. Azadi ka matlab kya? La ilaha illallah. What does Freedom mean? There is no god but Allah.

For somebody like myself, who is not Muslim, that interpretation of freedom is hardif not impossibleto understand. I asked a young woman whether freedom for Kashmir would not mean less freedom for her, as a woman. She shrugged and said, "What kind of freedom do we have now? The freedom to be raped by Indian soldiers?" Her reply silenced me.

Standing in the grounds of the TRC, surrounded by a sea of green flags, it was impossible to doubt or ignore the deeply Islamic nature of the uprising taking place around me. It was equally impossible to label it a vicious, terrorist jehad. For Kashmiris, it was a catharsis. A historical moment in a long and complicated struggle for freedom with all the imperfections, cruelties and confusions that freedom struggles have. This one cannot by any means call itself pristine, and will always be stigmatised by, and will some day, I hope, have to account foramong other thingsthe brutal killings of Kashmiri Pandits in the early years of the uprising, culminating in the exodus of almost the entire community from the Kashmir Valley.

As the crowd continued to swell, I listened carefully to the slogans, because rhetoric often clarifies things and holds the key to all kinds of understanding. I'd heard many of them before, a few years ago, at a militant's funeral. A new one, obviously coined after the blockade, was Kashmir ki mandi! Rawalpindi! (It doesn't lend itself to translation, but it meansKashmir's marketplace? Rawalpindi!) Another was Khooni lakir tod do, aar paar jod do (Break down the blood-soaked Line of Control, let Kashmir be united again). There were plenty of insults and humiliation for India: Ay jabiron ay zalimon, Kashmir hamara chhod do (Oh oppressors, Oh wicked ones, Get out of our Kashmir). Jis Kashmir ko khoon se seencha, woh Kashmir hamara hai (The Kashmir we have irrigated with our blood, that Kashmir is ours!).

The slogan that cut through me like a knife and clean broke my heart was this one: Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itselfPakistan). Why was it so galling, so painful to listen to this? I tried to work it out and settled on three reasons. First, because we all know that the first part of the slogan is the embarrassing and unadorned truth about India, the emerging superpower. Second, because all Indians who are not nanga or bhookha areand have beencomplicit in complex and historical ways with the cruel cultural and economic systems that make Indian society so cruel, so vulgarly unequal.

And third, because it was painful to listen to people who have suffered so much themselves mock others who suffer in different ways, but no less intensely, under the same oppressor. In that slogan I saw the seeds of how easily victims can become perpetrators.

It took hours for Mirwaiz Umer Farooq and Syed Ali Shah Geelani to wade through the thronging crowds and make it onto the podium. When they arrived, they were born aloft on the shoulders of young men, over the surging crowd to the podium. 
Of course, there are many ways for the Indian State to hold on to Kashmir. A few strategic massacres, a couple of targeted assassinations, some disappearances and a round of arrests should do the trick for a few more years. 


The roar of greeting was deafening. Mirwaiz Umer spoke first. He repeated the demand that the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, Disturbed Areas Act and Public Safety Actunder which thousands have been killed, jailed and torturedbe withdrawn. He called for the release of political prisoners, for the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad road to be opened for the free movement of goods and people, and for the demilitarisation of the Kashmir Valley. 

Syed Ali Shah Geelani began his address with a recitation from the Quran. He then said what he has said before, on hundreds of occasions. The only way for the struggle to succeed, he said, was to turn to the Quran for guidance. He said Islam would guide the struggle and that it was a complete social and moral code that would govern the people of a free Kashmir. He said Pakistan had been created as the home of Islam, and that that goal should never be subverted. He said just as Pakistan belonged to Kashmir, Kashmir belonged to Pakistan. He said minority communities would have full rights and their places of worship would be safe. Each point he made was applauded.

Oddly enough, the apparent doctrinal clarity of what he said made everything a little unclear. I wondered how the somewhat disparate views of the various factions in the freedom struggle would resolve themselvesthe Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front's vision of an independent state, Geelani's desire to merge with Pakistan and Mirwaiz Umer Farooq balanced precariously between them.

An old man with a red eye standing next to me said, "Kashmir was one country. Half was taken by India, the other half by Pakistan. Both by force. We want freedom." I wondered if, in the new dispensation, the old man would get a hearing. I wondered what he would think of the trucks that roared down the highways in the plains of India, owned and driven by men who knew nothing of history, or of Kashmir, but still had slogans on their tailgates that said, "Doodh maango to kheer denge, Kashmir maango to cheer denge (Ask for milk, you'll get cream; Ask for Kashmir, we'll tear you open)."

Briefly, I had another thought. I imagined myself standing in the heart of an RSS or VHP rally being addressed by L.K. Advani. Replace the word Islam with the word Hindutva, replace the word Pakistan with Hindustan, replace the sea of green flags with saffron ones, and we would have the BJP's nightmare vision of an ideal India.

Is that what we should accept as our future? Monolithic religious states handing down a complete social and moral code, "a complete way of life"? Millions of us in India reject the Hindutva project. Our rejection springs from love, from passion, from a kind of idealism, from having enormous emotional stakes in the society in which we live. What our neighbours do, how they choose to handle their affairs does not affect our argument, it only strengthens it.

Arguments that spring from love are also fraught with danger. It is for the people of Kashmir to agree or disagree with the Islamic project (which is as contested, in equally complex ways, all over the world by Muslims as Hindutva is contested by Hindus). Perhaps now that the threat of violence has receded and there is some space in which to debate views and air ideas, it is time for those who are part of the struggle to outline a vision for what kind of society they are fighting for. Perhaps it is time to offer people something more than martyrs, slogans and vague generalisations. Those who wish to turn to the Quran for guidance will no doubt find guidance there. But what of those who do not wish to do that, or for whom the Quran does not make place? Do the Hindus of Jammu and other minorities also have the right to self-determination? Will the hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri Pandits living in exile, many of them in terrible poverty, have the right to return? Will they be paid reparations for the terrible losses they have suffered? Or will a free Kashmir do to its minorities what India has done to Kashmiris for 61 years? What will happen to homosexuals and adulterers and blasphemers? What of thieves and lafangas and writers who do not agree with the "complete social and moral code"? Will we be put to death as we are in Saudi Arabia? Will the cycle of death, repression and bloodshed continue? History offers many models for Kashmir's thinkers and intellectuals and politicians to study. What will the Kashmir of their dreams look like? Algeria? Iran? South Africa? Switzerland? Pakistan?

At a crucial time like this, few things are more important than dreams. A lazy utopia and a flawed sense of justice will have consequences that do not bear thinking about. This is not the time for intellectual sloth or a reluctance to assess a situation clearly and honestly. It could be argued that the prevarication of Maharaja Hari Singh in 1947 has been Kashmir's great modern tragedy, one that eventually led to unthinkable bloodshed and the prolonged bondage of people who were very nearly free.

Already the spectre of partition has reared its head. Hindutva networks are alive with rumours about Hindus in the Valley being attacked and forced to flee. In response, phone calls from Jammu reported that an armed Hindu militia was threatening a massacre and that Muslims from the two Hindu majority districts were preparing to flee. (Memories of the bloodbath that ensued and claimed the lives of more than a million people when India and Pakistan were partitioned have come flooding back. That nightmare will haunt all of us forever.)

There is absolutely no reason to believe that history will repeat itself. Not unless it is made to. Not unless people actively work to create such a cataclysm.

However, none of these fears of what the future holds can justify the continued military occupation of a nation and a people. No more than the old colonial argument about how the natives were not ready for freedom justified the colonial project.

Of course there are many ways for the Indian State to continue to hold on to Kashmir. It could do what it does best. Wait. And hope the people's energy will dissipate in the absence of a concrete plan. It could try and fracture the fragile coalition that is emerging. It could extinguish this non-violent uprising and reinvite armed militancy. It could increase the number of troops from half-a-million to a whole million. A few strategic massacres, a couple of targeted assassinations, some disappearances and a massive round of arrests should do the trick for a few more years.

The unimaginable sums of public money that are needed to keep the military occupation of Kashmir going is money that ought by right to be spent on schools and hospitals and food for an impoverished, malnourished population in India. What kind of government can possibly believe that it has the right to spend it on more weapons, more concertina wire and more prisons in Kashmir?

The Indian military occupation of Kashmir makes monsters of us all. It allows Hindu chauvinists to target and victimise Muslims in India by holding them hostage to the freedom struggle being waged by Muslims in Kashmir. It's all being stirred into a poisonous brew and administered intravenously, straight into our bloodstream.

At the heart of it all is a moral question. Does any government have the right to take away people's liberty with military force?

India needs azadi from Kashmir just as muchif not morethan Kashmir needs azadi from India.

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## Cholan

I support Kashmir freedom, if people of pakistan support Srilankan Tamil, Tibet, Taiwan, Freedom.., after all each people has right to choose their way of living and freedom... but somehow., these people only support kashmir, and turns a blind eye for Srilankan Tamil and Tibet.,

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## Developereo

Cholan said:


> I support Kashmir freedom, if people of pakistan support Srilankan Tamil, Tibet, Taiwan, Freedom.., after all each people has right to choose their way of living and freedom... but somehow., these people only support kashmir, and turns a blind eye for Srilankan Tamil and Tibet.,



Sri Lanka, Tibet and Taiwan are not flying Pakistani flag.
Kashmiri people are.


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## arihant

Developereo said:


> Sri Lanka, Tibet and Taiwan are not flying Pakistani flag.
> Kashmiri people are.



I heard flags has been even flying in Assam so what ? If I come to Pakistan and Fly India's Flag does claim get prove for whole Pakistan.


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## pak-marine

arihant said:


> I heard flags has been even flying in Assam so what ? If I come to Pakistan and Fly India's Flag does claim get prove for whole pakistan.



no one likes to fly indian flag in pak!

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## arihant

pak-marine said:


> no one likes to fly indian flag in pak!



No, I mean if we sent RAW people, as you sent ISI.


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## Developereo

arihant said:


> I heard flags has been even flying in Assam so what ? If I come to Pakistan and Fly India's Flag does claim get prove for whole Pakistan.



No, but if *thousands* of Pakistanis start flying Indian flag in Pakistan then you would have a comparable situation.

Just like *thousands* of Kashmiris are flying Pakistani flag and chanting *Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan* in direct defiance of 700,000 Indian Army thugs.


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## Cholan

so your support is not humanity or human rights based... its simply nationalistic and religious (!!!).. then everyone has their own nationalistic view... and there wont be united view..


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## arihant

Developereo said:


> No, but if *thousands* of Pakistanis start flying Indian flag in Pakistan then you would have a comparable situation.
> 
> Just like *thousands* of Kashmiris are flying Pakistani flag and chanting *Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan* in direct defiance of 700,000 Indian Army thugs.



If you think this propaganda will get you Kashmir on your side then its your biggest mistake.


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## Patriot

Well, i think we can't blame average Indian..It's the bollywood and Indian GOVT propoganda that has brainwashed them.In fact frankly i think Pakistan should give up on Kashmir and offer citizenship to all those Kashmiris who want to live in Pakistan (Provided Indians agree to allow mass migration) and accept LOC as international border.I am sure there will be some goodwill from Indians too if we accept LOC as international border so we could also finally setup proper water agreements and other things.

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## Developereo

arihant said:


> If you think this propaganda will get you Kashmir on your side then its your biggest mistake.



This is a *firsthand report by an Indian*.

Propaganda, indeed

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## arihant

Patriot said:


> Well, i think we can't blame average Indian..It's the bollywood and Indian GOVT propoganda that has brainwashed them.In fact frankly i think Pakistan should give up on Kashmir and offer citizenship to all those Kashmiris who want to live in Pakistan (Provided Indians agree to allow mass migration) and accept LOC as international border.I am sure there will be some goodwill from Indians too if we accept LOC as international border.



Same applies with Lollywood and GOP.


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## Developereo

Cholan said:


> so your support is not humanity or human rights based... its simply nationalistic and religious (!!!).. then everyone has their own nationalistic view... and there wont be united view..



It is a principled response to people who explicitly ask for our help *by name*

Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan


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## arihant

Developereo said:


> It is a principled response to people who explicitly ask for our help *by name*
> 
> Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan



Thank god I got known how much hatred Pakistani Govt has filed in normal citizens of Pakistan. I don't need to quote some abusive words used by Indians at the time of Mumbai attacks as this will make this thread useless and will only decrease the prestige of both nations.

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## Zulfiqar

> No, I mean if we sent RAW people, as you sent ISI.



Why would Pakistan send an agent to india just to fly Pakistan's Flag.


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## Patriot

arihant said:


> Same applies with Lollywood and GOP.


Buddy nobody here watches Lollywood..In fact bollywood is far more popular in Pakistan then Lollywood...Now you see that's the problem.You're not accepting that there is a problem.I presented a solution which you might like but the fact is you gotta accept the fact that yes there is a insurgency it would not go down whether PAK supports it or not ie all those people who're sick entired of GOI should be allowed to move to Pakistan (We should provide refugee if we have little bit of respect for Kashmiris..and then accept LOC as international border but also give us some favors such as proper agreements on water etc as we will completely drop Kashmir issue)


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## arihant

Patriot said:


> Buddy nobody here watches Lollywood..In fact bollywood is far more popular in Pakistan then Lollywood...Now you see that's the problem.You're not accepting that there is a problem.I presented a solution which you might like but the fact is you gotta accept the fact that yes there is a insurgency it would not go down whether PAK supports it or not ie all those people who're sick entired of GOI should be allowed to move to Pakistan (We should provide refugee if we have little bit of respect for Kashmiris..and then accept LOC as international border but also give us some favors such as proper agreements on water etc).



I agree with you. As about Water, treaty is already there which has not been violated anytime. 

P.S. - I was just mentioning that brain wash applies to both state.


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## Peshwa

Developereo said:


> No, but if *thousands* of Pakistanis start flying Indian flag in Pakistan then you would have a comparable situation.
> 
> Just like *thousands* of Kashmiris are flying Pakistani flag and chanting *Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan* in direct defiance of 700,000 Indian Army thugs.



LOL.....Did you coin the phrase yourself.....Its effin hilarious....

On a serious note....I feel India is too nice to these traitors "jo jis thali mein khate hain usi mein chhed karte hain".....flying another nations flag in India other than in an embassy is reason enough to rip them up a new arshole....

Anyways.....what these people fail to understand is that this is democracy....not anarchy....Tomorrow everyones gonna want a seperate state for themselves....Its not mandir ka prasad that we hand out to every idiot that walks bye...


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## gubbi

Developereo said:


> Just like *thousands* of Kashmiris are flying Pakistani flag and chanting *Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan* in direct defiance of 700,000 Indian Army thugs.



Lol, like Pakistan really give a better alternative to the poor Kashmiris in stark contrast to _"nunga bhooka Hindustan"_! Unfortunately, Pakistan of today is very different from secular Jinnah's vision. Hell yeah, a society where fundamentalism in making alarming inroads is a much better option than a society which allows to vent your frustration by the way of elections and anti-establishment rallies!
Btw how many Kashmiris do YOU really know, and I mean personally? I happen to know quite a few. So please do enjoy whatever aberrations of reality that you may harbor, all by yourself.
As regards to the article by A Roy, she's an extreme leftie moron (sympathizing with even the naxals)! A couple of books later she thinks the world of herself, but then she has her voice as guaranteed by- note this- the secular Indian Constitution. Surprised? Wonder what happens to such renegades in other countries?!!

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## Peshwa

Patriot said:


> Well, i think we can't blame average Indian..It's the bollywood and Indian GOVT propoganda that has brainwashed them.In fact frankly i think Pakistan should give up on Kashmir and offer citizenship to all those Kashmiris who want to live in Pakistan (Provided Indians agree to allow mass migration) and accept LOC as international border.I am sure there will be some goodwill from Indians too if we accept LOC as international border so we could also finally setup proper water agreements and other things.



Thats a noble thought.....I second your view as a possible solution....

Thought Patriot....dude....the brainwashing bit....was it really necessary?? Do you really think Indians break out into a song everytime there is a serious moment in their lives???
Cmon Ill give you that Bollywood is entertaining....but the psychological effects of Bollywood can only be observed in the demented!!!!


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## Developereo

arihant said:


> Thank god I got known how much hatred Pakistani Govt has filed in normal citizens of Pakistan. I don't need to quote some abusive words used by Indians at the time of Mumbai attacks as this will make this thread useless and will only decrease the prestige of both nations.



That was the chant by Kashmiris.

Read the article again. I guess you missed it.


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## Developereo

DesiGuy said:


> To spread violence in Indian Kashmir, lollll
> 
> 
> yea.



Yeah. It's all a Pakistani conspiracy.

Quick, there's a Pakistani hiding under you bed!

*BOO*


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## Developereo

Peshwa said:


> LOL.....Did you coin the phrase yourself.....Its effin hilarious....
> 
> On a serious note....I feel India is too nice to these traitors "jo jis thali mein khate hain usi mein chhed karte hain".....flying another nations flag in India other than in an embassy is reason enough to rip them up a new arshole....



They were *forced* to join India against their will.

I know the Indian brainwash media loves to rewrite history, but the Kashmiris know exactly what happened in 1947.



Peshwa said:


> Tomorrow everyones gonna want a seperate state for themselves



*Thank you.*
At least you are honest enough to admit the real reason why India opposes the Kashmiri struggle for freedom.


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## Developereo

gubbi said:


> Lol, like Pakistan really give a better alternative to the poor Kashmiris in stark contrast to _"nunga bhooka Hindustan"_! Unfortunately, Pakistan of today is very different from secular Jinnah's vision. Hell yeah, a society where fundamentalism in making alarming inroads is a much better option than a society which allows to vent your frustration by the way of elections and anti-establishment rallies!
> Btw how many Kashmiris do YOU really know, and I mean personally? I happen to know quite a few. So please do enjoy whatever aberrations of reality that you may harbor, all by yourself.
> As regards to the article by A Roy, she's an extreme leftie moron (sympathizing with even the naxals)! A couple of books later she thinks the world of herself, but then she has her voice as guaranteed by- note this- the secular Indian Constitution. Surprised? Wonder what happens to such renegades in other countries?!!



Most countries, including Pakistan, have free media with dissenting views, so get off your high horse.

As regards religious fundamentalism, I already posted a few gems of Indian religious 'tolerance' in that other thread where you dared me. And you have the gall to show your face again with that canard!


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## Developereo

Patriot said:


> Buddy nobody here watches Lollywood..In fact bollywood is far more popular in Pakistan then Lollywood...Now you see that's the problem.You're not accepting that there is a problem.I presented a solution which you might like but the fact is you gotta accept the fact that yes there is a insurgency it would not go down whether PAK supports it or not ie all those people who're sick entired of GOI should be allowed to move to Pakistan (We should provide refugee if we have little bit of respect for Kashmiris..and then accept LOC as international border but also give us some favors such as proper agreements on water etc as we will completely drop Kashmir issue)



*Wrong solution.*

Why should brave Kashmiris have to give up their ancestral homes and livelihood and reward Indian thuggery?

And if you think India will stop blackmailing us over water, you are too trusting.


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## Cholan

Developereo said:


> It is a principled response to people who explicitly ask for our help *by name*
> 
> Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan



thats hilarious 

so.. IF baloch people (even some of them) ask for Indian help we can also come and help them... can we? (as I see...recent reports, some Baloch leaders are openly asking for india help)..After all we are also obliged to respond for *people who explicitly ask for our help*

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## Developereo

Cholan said:


> thats hilarious
> 
> so.. IF baloch people (even some of them) ask for Indian help we can also come and help them... can we? (as I see...recent reports, some Baloch leaders are openly asking for india help)..After all we are also obliged to respond for *people who explicitly ask for our help*



If *thousands* of ordinary Balochis defy a stationed army of 700,000 thugs and ask for Indian help, then you would have a comparable case.

If a couple of fatcats living in London ask for it, umm, I doubt it!


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## Peshwa

Developereo said:


> They were *forced* to join India against their will.
> 
> I know the Indian brainwash media loves to rewrite history, but the Kashmiris know exactly what happened in 1947.
> 
> 
> 
> It depends who's perspective you look at it from......
> 
> If you want to talk about "forced".....I dont think an insurgency and unrest for the last 20 years was what the Kashmiri's wanted.....But militancy was forced upon the Kashmiri's by Pakistan....ever think of that??
> I mean had there been no attack on Kashmir in '47 and the ascension to India had gone without interference from Pakistan.....maybe the Kashmiri's would have been blessed with better lives......maybe they wouldnt have to live under military rule....
> Why was Kashmir not heavily militarized before the 80's??
> 
> Dont just blame us for the plight of the Kashmiri's....you sow the bad seeds and expect us to take blame for it.....and now when we try to uproot this same weed....you call it brutality.....Is Hypocrisy offered as a major in Pakistani schools?? Im starting to wonder.....


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## bandit

Developereo said:


> If *thousands* of ordinary Balochis defy a stationed army of 700,000 thugs and ask for Indian help, then you would have a comparable case.
> 
> If a couple of fatcats living in London ask for it, umm, I doubt it!



See democracy at work here....our fatcats dont need to run off to London to save their lives and protest...our constitution gives them the right to do it right here in India


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## Peshwa

Developereo said:


> Most countries, including Pakistan, have free media with dissenting views, so get off your high horse.
> 
> As regards religious fundamentalism, I already posted a few gems of Indian religious 'tolerance' in that other thread where you dared me. And you have the gall to show your face again with that canard!



Are you seriously going to compare the level of journalism in Pakistan with India......cmon except on this forum I have never even heard of anyone calling Pakistani media as credible.....
Not to say we dont have some shitty news channels in India that spin conspiracy theories and rely on "wet dreams" to concoct stories.....but the professionalism in Media, the level of transparency in media....cannot even be equated with Pakistan....

Come back in 10 years and maybe we can have this discussion....

Just answer one question.....Can you print a news report critizing Islam in your country....or even write a story calling the Quaid a "Baniya Bastard".....???
I hardly think so....so what free media do you speak of sir?


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## Developereo

Peshwa said:


> It depends who's perspective you look at it from......
> 
> If you want to talk about "forced".....I dont think an insurgency and unrest for the last 20 years was what the Kashmiri's wanted.....But militancy was forced upon the Kashmiri's by Pakistan....ever think of that??
> I mean had there been no attack on Kashmir in '47 and the ascension to India had gone without interference from Pakistan.....maybe the Kashmiri's would have been blessed with better lives......maybe they wouldnt have to live under military rule....
> Why was Kashmir not heavily militarized before the 80's??
> 
> Dont just blame us for the plight of the Kashmiri's....you sow the bad seeds and expect us to take blame for it.....and now when we try to uproot this same weed....you call it brutality.....Is Hypocrisy offered as a major in Pakistani schools?? Im starting to wonder.....



Let's take this slowly.

Kashmiri population wants to join Pakistan in 1947.
The ruler goes with India against their will.
The people rebel and ask Pakistan for help.
Pakistan obliges.
India sends in thousands of thugs to silence and intimidate the population.
The more India pushes, the more the Kashmiris resist.

India could have tried to win them over with charm instead of force. (Remember honey, vinegar...?)

All the tactics that India is trying in Afghanistan could have been used in Kashmir to win the people's hearts and minds. Instead India stationed a 700,000 strong brutal occupation force that engages in murder, rape and torture on a regular basis. This is not just me talking. Indian and independent human rights groups have verified the brutality of Indian army in Kashmir.

Do you honestly believe that any Pakistani infiltrators (which you claim) would be so welcome in Kashmir if the people were happy with India?


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## Developereo

bandit said:


> See democracy at work here....our fatcats dont need to run off to London to save their lives and protest...our constitution gives them the right to do it right here in India



Yes, we see how you deal with peaceful dissenters in Kashmir.


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## bandit

Developereo said:


> Yes, we see how you deal with peaceful dissenters in Kashmir.



The Kashmiris are peaceful...the terrorists are not.


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## bandit

Developereo said:


> Let's take this slowly.
> 
> Kashmiri population wants to join Pakistan in 1947.
> The ruler goes with India against their will.
> The people rebel and ask Pakistan for help.
> Pakistan obliges.
> India sends in thousands of thugs to silence and intimidate the population.
> The more India pushes, the more the Kashmiris resist.
> 
> India could have tried to win them over with charm instead of force. (Remember honey, vinegar...?)
> 
> All the tactics that India is trying in Afghanistan could have been used in Kashmir to win the people's hearts and minds. Instead India stationed a 700,000 strong brutal occupation force that engages in murder, rape and torture on a regular basis. This is not just me talking. Indian and independent human rights groups have verified the brutality of Indian army in Kashmir.
> 
> Do you honestly believe that any Pakistani infiltrators (which you claim) would be so welcome in Kashmir if the people were happy with India?



Dumb Dumb Dumb 

Please read how Kashmiris were the ones informing IA of Infiltrating terrorists in 47,65 and 99, would help you get a grip on reality.

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## Developereo

Peshwa said:


> Are you seriously going to compare the level of journalism in Pakistan with India......cmon except on this forum I have never even heard of anyone calling Pakistani media as credible.....
> Not to say we dont have some shitty news channels in India that spin conspiracy theories and rely on "wet dreams" to concoct stories.....but the professionalism in Media, the level of transparency in media....cannot even be equated with Pakistan....



You are absolutely right.
Indian and Pakistani media cannot be compared.

Pakistan has media outlets like DAWN.com which routinely critisize Pakistan's foreign policy re: India and Afghanistan, and publish pro-India articles by Indian columnists.

Indian media, for the most part, is right wing, jingoistic, nationalist trash with a monolithic narrative against Pakistan. It is filled with juvenilem tabloid rants against Pakistan. There is not one mainstream Indian media outlet which even dares to publish a Pakistani viewpoint.



Peshwa said:


> Just answer one question.....Can you print a news report critizing Islam in your country



Read DAWN.com (Nadeem Paracha, Huma Yousuf, etc. etc.)

There are others, but start with DAWN.


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## Developereo

bandit said:


> The Kashmiris are peaceful...the terrorists are not.



Yes. I am sure the girls raped by Indian army thugs were terrorists.


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## DesiGuy

Patriot said:


> Buddy nobody here watches Lollywood..*In fact bollywood is far more popular in Pakistan then Lollywood.*..Now you see that's the problem.You're not accepting that there is a problem.I presented a solution which you might like but the fact is you gotta accept the fact that yes there is a insurgency it would not go down whether PAK supports it or not ie all those people who're sick entired of GOI should be allowed to move to Pakistan (We should provide refugee if we have little bit of respect for Kashmiris..and then accept LOC as international border but also give us some favors such as proper agreements on water etc as we will completely drop Kashmir issue)





Now that's not the problem of India, don't blame India for that.


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## Developereo

bandit said:


> Dumb Dumb Dumb
> 
> Please read how Kashmiris were the ones informing IA of Infiltrating terrorists in 47,65 and 99, would help you get a grip on reality.



I did not say the pro-Pakistan movement is 100%.
Of course there would be individuals who would help India, either because of ideology or because they were paid.

But AR's article above and the need to station half a million+ troops says that the overwhelming majority of Kashmiris want nothing to do with India.


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## DesiGuy

Developereo said:


> www.outlookindia.com | Azadi
> by Arundhati Roy
> 
> Not surprisingly, the voice that the Government of India has tried so hard to silence in Kashmir has massed into a deafening roar. Hundreds of thousands of unarmed people have come out to reclaim their cities, their streets and mohallas. They have simply overwhelmed the heavily armed security forces by their sheer numbers, and with a remarkable display of raw courage.





Different people have different opinions.


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## bandit

Developereo said:


> I did not say the pro-Pakistan movement is 100&#37;.
> Of course there would be individuals who would help India, either because of ideology or because they were paid.
> 
> But AR's article above and the need to station half a million+ troops says that the overwhelming majority of Kashmiris want nothing to do with India.



Who told you they were Individuals and not the average Kashmiris helping out the Demon IA you wish it were.

The overwhelming majority stay at their homes and go about their work everyday since pak clamped down on insurgency after 2002. Speaks volumes about where the terrorism originated.


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## Peshwa

Developereo said:


> Let's take this slowly.
> 
> Kashmiri population wants to join Pakistan in 1947.
> The ruler goes with India against their will.
> The people rebel and ask Pakistan for help.
> Pakistan obliges.
> India sends in thousands of thugs to silence and intimidate the population.
> The more India pushes, the more the Kashmiris resist.
> 
> India could have tried to win them over with charm instead of force. (Remember honey, vinegar...?)
> 
> All the tactics that India is trying in Afghanistan could have been used in Kashmir to win the people's hearts and minds. Instead India stationed a 700,000 strong brutal occupation force that engages in murder, rape and torture on a regular basis. This is not just me talking. Indian and independent human rights groups have verified the brutality of Indian army in Kashmir.
> 
> Do you honestly believe that any Pakistani infiltrators (which you claim) would be so welcome in Kashmir if the people were happy with India?



You want it slow....lets make it like its your first time......

Before partition, the Muslims make up 77% of Kashmir, and it is assumed that Maharaja Hari Singh would choose to join Pakistan because of this reason
During Partition, he changes his mind and decides to remain independent
Pakistan and its goons (mix of army and afghan tribesman) attack Kashmir to muscle Hari Singh into ascending to Pakistan
Hari Singh looks to India for help....India lays the condition that Kashmir would have to be integrated into India
Indian army arrives in Kashmir to cleanse it and frees 2/3 of Kashmir past which a cease fire is called
Pakistan and its army under assumptions of a being a "martially superior race" decide to launch operation Gibraltar and muscle Kashmir out of India.....unsuccessfully leading to the '65 war....
Realizing that taking Kashmir from India is not an option militarily, in the 1980's, Pakistan decides to send militants(Pakistani citizens from ***), train unemployed/fanatical/easily malleable Kashmiri youth to start an insurgency, and fight the state.....

You can continue the rest from here.......

Now the one thing I do agree with you in this post is that India could have used "soft" techniques to help the Kashmiri's....but let me ask you something.....why arent you doing the same in NWFP or Baluchistan??......
The reason is, there is militancy in Kashmir....and the sole reason why India shys away from investing in Kashmir is beacuse eventually this money will go down the drain with the militants targeting these very projects.....
I have mentioned this before, that India has never been given a chance to help the Kashmiri's.....

You think Kashmir does not enjoy rights as any other state of India.....so what do you think Pakistan is going to offer the Kashmiri's that India wont??? 

Also, by saying things like "700,000 strong brutal occupation force that engages in murder, rape and torture on a regular basis"....isnt going to make it real....I will give you that some indisciplined troops make mistakes...but dont make it seem like its a state policy and that IA has a schedule where they decide that "chalo its thursday....aaj kisi ka rape karna hai....phir kisi ki bund phadte hain".......

My advice to Pakistan is ....if they truly care about the Kashmiri's...let there be a decade of peace where we can develop Kashmir.....let the Kashmiri's also expirience the growing wealth of India....and even then if they want to join Pakistan (which I doubt they do even today...but for your sake lets say its true).....we can hold talks.....


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## Developereo

DesiGuy said:


> Different people have different opinions.



This is not a matter of opinion.
These are documented facts.

We, on this forum, have the luxury to debate this as an abstract concept, but thousand of Kashmiris have lost their life or been tortured or raped because they believe strongly enough to fight for their freedom.

And countless Indian and Pakistani soldiers have also died over this.

This is a matter of human rights that India suppresses by force because, as many Indians have admitted, releasing Kashmir would open the floodgates to other ethnic movements within India.


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## Developereo

bandit said:


> Who told you they were Individuals and not the average Kashmiris helping out the Demon IA you wish it were.



?



bandit said:


> The overwhelming majority stay at their homes and go about their work everyday since pak clamped down on insurgency after 2002. Speaks volumes about where the terrorism originated.



This article was written in Sep 2008.


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## Cholan

Developereo said:


> If *thousands* of ordinary Balochis defy a stationed army of 700,000 thugs and ask for Indian help, then you would have a comparable case.
> 
> If a couple of fatcats living in London ask for it, umm, I doubt it!



Umm.. so the limits and number of people are standards set by You.. as per your convenient.., IF thousand people ask for help then its okay.. if 950 people ask for help then..NO... all this number standards are simply to justify their own ideologies


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## Peshwa

Developereo said:


> You are absolutely right.
> Indian and Pakistani media cannot be compared.
> 
> Pakistan has media outlets like DAWN.com which routinely critisize Pakistan's foreign policy re: India and Afghanistan, and publish pro-India articles by Indian columnists.
> 
> Indian media, for the most part, is right wing, jingoistic, nationalist trash with a monolithic narrative against Pakistan. It is filled with juvenilem tabloid rants against Pakistan. There is not one mainstream Indian media outlet which even dares to publish a Pakistani viewpoint.
> 
> 
> 
> Read DAWN.com (Nadeem Paracha, Huma Yousuf, etc. etc.)
> 
> There are others, but start with DAWN.



DAWN is very respectable indeed......I wont argue since Im an avid reader....but I have hardly seen a news property worth reading other than this......
I mean a majority of Pakistani's seem to get their "news" from Rupeenews.....Moin Ansari, Ahmad Qureshi and Zaid Hamid.....do I need to go any further??

Also....can you please send me a report of a news article where Islam was criticized in a national newspaper......

Seriously show me the equivalent of Tehelka, the investigative journalism of the Gujrat massacre.....Babri Masjid, Modi's involvement, '83 Riots.....etc etc

The last great report I saw from Pakistan was by this brave woman named Sharmeen O'baid-Chinoy called Children of the Taliban.....who wierdly turned out to be my close friends oldest sister....small world!!

I dont want to get into this who's better than whom argument....as its pretty childish.....but lets educate each other on what is a good news source....What say?


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## Cholan

Developereo said:


> Let's take this slowly.
> Do you honestly believe that any Pakistani infiltrators (which you claim) would be so welcome in Kashmir if the people were happy with India?



who said.. ALL kashmiris welcome Pak infilitrators (i would prefer terrorists..but then..) remember Operation Gilbartar, Kargil., all these misadventures are based on the assumption that..the moment Pak attack., the kashmiri will join with PA.. but it never happened.. learn from the past..


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## Developereo

Peshwa said:


> You want it slow....lets make it like its your first time......
> 
> Before partition, the Muslims make up 77% of Kashmir, and it is assumed that Maharaja Hari Singh would choose to join Pakistan because of this reason
> During Partition, he changes his mind and decides to remain independent
> Pakistan and its goons (mix of army and afghan tribesman) attack Kashmir to muscle Hari Singh into ascending to Pakistan
> Hari Singh looks to India for help....India lays the condition that Kashmir would have to be integrated into India
> Indian army arrives in Kashmir to cleanse it and frees 2/3 of Kashmir past which a cease fire is called
> Pakistan and its army under assumptions of a being a "martially superior race" decide to launch operation Gibraltar and muscle Kashmir out of India.....unsuccessfully leading to the '65 war....
> Realizing that taking Kashmir from India is not an option militarily, in the 1980's, Pakistan decides to send militants(Pakistani citizens from ***), train unemployed/fanatical/easily malleable Kashmiri youth to start an insurgency, and fight the state.....



Pakistan disputes the details as you have stated. Our contention is that Pakistan was invited in by the people of Kashmir.



Peshwa said:


> why arent you doing the same in NWFP or Baluchistan??......



I agree with you on this. We mistreated the Bengalis and India took advantage of the situation. Same thing is happening in Balochistan and Sarhad. This is a lesson that Pakistan never seems to learn.



Peshwa said:


> so what do you think Pakistan is going to offer the Kashmiri's that India wont???



It is not up to me to offer. The Kashmiri people obviously feel they would be better off with Pakistan.



Peshwa said:


> Also, by saying things like "700,000 strong brutal occupation force that engages in murder, rape and torture on a regular basis"....isnt going to make it real....I will give you that some indisciplined troops make mistakes...but dont make it seem like its a state policy and that IA has a schedule where they decide that "chalo its thursday....aaj kisi ka rape karna hai....phir kisi ki bund phadte hain".......



When you place 700,000 troops far from home, crimes like rape will happen. But extrajudicial killings and torture are not sporadic, individual actions. These have to be ordered.



Peshwa said:


> My advice to Pakistan is ....if they truly care about the Kashmiri's...let there be a decade of peace where we can develop Kashmir.....let the Kashmiri's also expirience the growing wealth of India....and even then if they want to join Pakistan (which I doubt they do even today...but for your sake lets say its true).....we can hold talks.....



It's not Pakistanis you need to convince. It is the Kashmiris.


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## Developereo

Cholan said:


> Umm.. so the limits and number of people are standards set by You.. as per your convenient.., IF thousand people ask for help then its okay.. if 950 people ask for help then..NO... all this number standards are simply to justify their own ideologies



It's not thousands v/s 950.

It's thousands of ordinary people v/s 2 or 3 fatcats who live in luxury in London.


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## Developereo

Peshwa said:


> DAWN is very respectable indeed......I wont argue since Im an avid reader....but I have hardly seen a news property worth reading other than this......
> I mean a majority of Pakistani's seem to get their "news" from Rupeenews.....Moin Ansari, Ahmad Qureshi and Zaid Hamid.....do I need to go any further??
> 
> Also....can you please send me a report of a news article where Islam was criticized in a national newspaper......
> 
> Seriously show me the equivalent of Tehelka, the investigative journalism of the Gujrat massacre.....Babri Masjid, Modi's involvement, '83 Riots.....etc etc
> 
> The last great report I saw from Pakistan was by this brave woman named Sharmeen O'baid-Chinoy called Children of the Taliban.....who wierdly turned out to be my close friends oldest sister....small world!!
> 
> I dont want to get into this who's better than whom argument....as its pretty childish.....but lets educate each other on what is a good news source....What say?



Zaid Hamid and gang are Pakistani version of Fox News. I wouldn't classify them as mainstream.

http://blog.dawn.com:91/dblog/2009/08/18/lessons-from-gojra/

http://blog.dawn.com:91/dblog/2009/08/11/in-defence-of-reason/

There are lots more blog entries.

Unfortunatelty I don't know how to search for old news stories on DAWN.com but they had fairly scathing coverage of Gojra and the TTP in general.

I am told The Hindu is a decent newspaper in India.

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## Patriot

Developereo said:


> *Wrong solution.*
> 
> Why should brave Kashmiris have to give up their ancestral homes and livelihood and reward Indian thuggery?
> 
> And if you think India will stop blackmailing us over water, you are too trusting.


It's obvious that we cannot take Kashmir via force.Is it really worth it to fight for a cause which is not going to change and if anything it might turn Sub Continent to nuclear waste land.I personally believe that Pakistan should give up on Kashmir and offer free citizenship and mass migration to Kashmiris who wish to live in Pakistan as a AZAD Kashmiri.We can certainly help them.If we can accept afghanis then why not Kashmiris.J&K will remain with India and thats a fact unless China does something crazy (highly unlikely) so we should accept LOC as international border and it might even improve our relations with India.All those kashmiris who wish to live with India can remain in J&K while those who want to live in Pakistan can move over and in a decade or so we can even open up both borders.Trust me neither side is going to give up its territory.That's the only solution i can think of.

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## dvk1982

what was more awkard for me was when i read this article is that how cud these writers preach being unbiased when they themselves rn't...

"Briefly, I had another thought. I imagined myself standing in the heart of an RSS or VHP rally being addressed by L.K. Advani. Replace the word Islam with the word Hindutva, replace the word Pakistan with Hindustan, replace the sea of green flags with saffron ones, and we would have the BJP's nightmare vision of an ideal India.
"

I for one hate any extremism on the basis of religion becoz .. if we patronize our religions and let extremists control it... be islam, chritianity or hinudism.. its a defeat for us... I for one strongly object dividing a nation on the basis of religion.... Never in the history except for twice in 1945-1947 has a country got birth or got partitioned based on just religion !!
When Roy sympathizes with kashmiris by just hinting that she finds it ok for kashmiris to chant Pakistan just becoz it is islamic and they believe only Allah but when some otehr organization RSS does that she says it's nightmare !! when its a nightmare becoz of defining an ideal nation based on one religion then even to some extent kashmiri's patronizing pakistan becoz its islamic republic too needs to be called nightmare !! 2 yardsticks !!! bit****.......


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## Peshwa

Developereo said:


> Zaid Hamid and gang are Pakistani version of Fox News. I wouldn't classify them as mainstream.
> 
> http://blog.dawn.com:91/dblog/2009/08/18/lessons-from-gojra/
> 
> http://blog.dawn.com:91/dblog/2009/08/11/in-defence-of-reason/
> 
> There are lots more blog entries.
> 
> Unfortunatelty I don't know how to search for old news stories on DAWN.com but they had fairly scathing coverage of Gojra and the TTP in general.
> 
> I am told The Hindu is a decent newspaper in India.



Appreciate the two links.....hope to go through them and speak with you about it.....

Hindu is considered a reputable source....escpecially since its based in Chennai and distances itself from the north Indian BS.......

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## dvk1982

Developereo said:


> This is a *firsthand report by an Indian*.
> 
> Propaganda, indeed



thats the result of freedom of speech.... she is entitled to her views... sadly for you, its not what most indians wud accept !!!


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## dvk1982

Developereo said:


> They were *forced* to join India against their will.
> 
> *Thank you.*
> At least you are honest enough to admit the real reason why India opposes the Kashmiri struggle for freedom.



Not just India but any country on the face of earth rejects seperatists movements... what wud u say if some balochs protest pakis saying even they were not involved merging their province back then !!!


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## dvk1982

Developereo said:


> Let's take this slowly.
> 
> The people rebel and ask Pakistan for help.
> Pakistan obliges.
> India sends in thousands of thugs to silence and intimidate the population.
> The more India pushes, the more the Kashmiris resist.
> 
> India could have tried to win them over with charm instead of force. (Remember honey, vinegar...?)



where in ur wet dreams did u find people asking for covert pakistani operators to liberate kashmirirs ??? 

Tell me why it took kashmiris nearly 35 years to revolt against India thats only towards the end of 1980s and not from 1947 ? and in the meantime it had more than twice fought wars with pakistan.... ??

before 1980s end.. Kashmir wasn't the most military controlled zones as it is today... and what a coincidence that those fagots used in afganistan got a c hance to operate in kashmir towards the end of afghan war...

Illetrates can be easily misled in the name of religion.. which pakistan is expert at !!!


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## Cholan

Developereo said:


> It's not thousands v/s 950.
> 
> It's thousands of ordinary people v/s 2 or 3 fatcats who live in luxury in London.




Not just 2 or fatcats.. Bugti a well known and respected balochi openly asked for India help... 

PA send fighters and killed him.. somehow it is justified..


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## DesiGuy

Developereo said:


> Yeah. It's all a Pakistani conspiracy.
> 
> Quick, there's a Pakistani hiding under you bed!
> 
> *BOO*




lol, i live in USA.


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## gubbi

Developereo said:


> Most countries, including Pakistan, have free media with dissenting views, so get off your high horse.
> 
> As regards religious fundamentalism, I already posted a few gems of Indian religious 'tolerance' in that other thread where you dared me. And you have the gall to show your face again with that canard!



Lol matey, I chose not to reply to that one because it was another piece of blogged junk! I bet you dont know one single Kashmiri and you talk for them? Talk about gall! 
Of course Pakistan has some free media, but what alarms the rest of the world is the alarming rise of religious fundamentalism coupled by the rising levels of dissatisfaction over Pak Govt actions. Now that sure is a recipe for disaster. I do sincerely hope that such a day does not come to pass. And now in such present circumstances, after enjoying relatively wide ranging freedoms, the Kashmiris, and this I know for sure, would gladly prefer-if you may-the "Indian occupation".
Please do free say "yeh (education) system hi hein kharab"!


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## gubbi

Developereo said:


> Kashmiri population wants to join Pakistan in 1947.
> The ruler goes with India against their will.
> The people rebel and ask Pakistan for help.
> Pakistan obliges.


Oh yeah, I should rather believe some anonymous Pakistani poster settled down under on a public forum about what Kashmiris want, over real Kashmiris!!


> Do you honestly believe that any Pakistani infiltrators (which you claim) would be so welcome in Kashmir if the people were happy with India?


Like the poor common man really has a choice when facing the business end of a Kalashnikov!!

ps: what are your sources? I really dig fiction!


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## asq

arihant said:


> What about yourself.



What about myself, let me tell you about us.

we never raise a question about as u Indians do;

Muslim when in space which way he will turn to pray.

We never say new boy friend.

We never say many things but when u Indian bring up the subject we have to correct the untrue. insulting and lying is the norm with Indians.

Let me enlighten you and put up here the lies that India has been spreading and each and every time it got caught.

read on.

India is a rogue, extremist state with nuclear weapons and a danger to the rest of the world!

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## toxic_pus

asq said:


> All Indians keep mentioning tribesmen as they were aliens who entered kashmir. Stop bring tribesmen, they at the time of Muslim league call decided to join Pakistan even this territory was to go back to Afghanistan after 99years, the Durand line, Since All Pashtuns decided to say in Pakistan at it independence, so *they were legally Pakistanis and were fighting for their motherland*.


Actually, the UNSC resolutions refer to 'the tribesmen and *Pakistani nationals*'. The phrase is accepted and used consistently and continuously in all resolutions, wherever any such reference was needed to be made, by the UN. Anyway, thanks for making my point.



> Now coming to resolutions, read see for yourself what it says and not what you have written down.
> 
> DRAFT 6.2.1948
> 
> 38 (1948)
> 
> 47 (1948)


Draft 6.2.1948 was what it was - a draft. It was never adopted. Res 38 doesn't detail out any condition. It simply takes cognizance of Kashmir dispute. Res 47 became irrelevant after the unanimous adoption of the Cease Fire agreement (Res 48 or Doc 1100, passed on 13.8.48) and subsequent resolution for plebiscite (Res 49 or Doc 1196, passed on 5.2.49). 


Doc 110/13.8.48 said:


> When the Commission shall have notified the Government of India that *the tribesmen and Pakistan nationals referred to in Part II A 2 hereof have withdrawn*, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that *the Pakistan forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir*, the *Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of their forces from the State in stages* to be agreed upon with the Commission





Doc 1196/5.1.48 said:


> *A plebiscite will be held when it shall be found by the Commission that the cease-fire and truce arrangements set forth in Parts I and II of the Commission's resolution of 13 August 1948, have been carried out* and arrangements for the plebiscite have been completed





asq said:


> there are many more resolution where this came from, it is funny you post your ideas as if they were on U.N.
> 
> Clearly the resolution say that if the force have withdrawn, named tribesmen than Indian must start a process to set up plebiscite plans and procedure and implement with urgency.
> 
> But you Indians read and twist it and read and twist it again again. there are billion Indians and billion interpretations of Kashmir resolutions.
> 
> You guys do not want peace only talk silly and keep killing innocents, raping women


Ho hum.


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## luoshan

I feel the only way for India to control Kashmir is the way Chinese control Xinjiang..
Summarily execute all the separatists. The Hurriyat people are too pampered. They are openly doing anti-India activities within Indian territory without fear of any repercurssions. Just machines gun down these Pakistani flag waving people. No country can tolerate such activities. There will be cries from human rights groups for some time.. and then everything will go to normal.
If a bullet is fired from a village/town.. just carpet bomb that village/town. Re-settle patriotic Indians in Kashmir, like the Han Chinese do in Xinjiang. Instead, the Kashmiri pundits are driven out of their ancestral homelands. The situation has to be reversed. India has to become more aggressive. Learn from the Chinese how they control Xinjiang and Tibet.
India should not be too worried about Pakistan. Just treat it with indifference. Pakistan will be doing anti-India activities, no matter what is the situation in Kashmir. I think India can handle whatever worst Pakistan can throw at India. Pakistan has tried everything to grab Kashmir, and failed. Today India is stronger militarily, politically and economically than it was ever was in last 60 years.


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## TaimiKhan

luoshan said:


> I feel the only way for India to control Kashmir is the way Chinese control Xinjiang..
> Summarily execute all the separatists. The Hurriyat people are too pampered. They are openly doing anti-India activities within Indian territory without fear of any repercurssions. Just machines gun down these Pakistani flag waving people. No country can tolerate such activities. There will be cries from human rights groups for some time.. and then everything will go to normal.
> If a bullet is fired from a village/town.. just carpet bomb that village/town. Re-settle patriotic Indians in Kashmir, like the Han Chinese do in Xinjiang. Instead, the Kashmiri pundits are driven out of their ancestral homelands. The situation has to be reversed. India has to become more aggressive. Learn from the Chinese how they control Xinjiang and Tibet.
> India should not be too worried about Pakistan. Just treat it with indifference. Pakistan will be doing anti-India activities, no matter what is the situation in Kashmir. I think India can handle whatever worst Pakistan can throw at India. Pakistan has tried everything to grab Kashmir, and failed. Today India is stronger militarily, politically and economically than it was ever was in last 60 years.




Nice going man , keep it up

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## Developereo

Patriot said:


> It's obvious that we cannot take Kashmir via force.Is it really worth it to fight for a cause which is not going to change and if anything it might turn Sub Continent to nuclear waste land.I personally believe that Pakistan should give up on Kashmir and offer free citizenship and mass migration to Kashmiris who wish to live in Pakistan as a AZAD Kashmiri.We can certainly help them.If we can accept afghanis then why not Kashmiris.J&K will remain with India and thats a fact unless China does something crazy (highly unlikely) so we should accept LOC as international border and it might even improve our relations with India.All those kashmiris who wish to live with India can remain in J&K while those who want to live in Pakistan can move over and in a decade or so we can even open up both borders.Trust me neither side is going to give up its territory.That's the only solution i can think of.



It's not up to us to impose a solution on the Kashmiri people. They are quite capable of making their own choices -- unhampered by the presence of 700,000 intimidaters.

Ironic, really, that so-called 'democratic India' refuses to let the Kashmiri people exercise their democratic right in this, their most crucial, decision.


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## arihant

Developereo said:


> It's not up to us to impose a solution on the Kashmiri people. They are quite capable of making their own choices -- unhampered by the presence of 700,000 intimidaters.
> 
> Ironic, really, that so-called 'democratic India' refuses to let the Kashmiri people exercise their democratic right in this, their most crucial, decision.



If you read my earlier post, you will get known that Kashmir was always independent until you attack which force King to annex it to India.


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## Developereo

dvk1982 said:


> what was more awkard for me was when i read this article is that how cud these writers preach being unbiased when they themselves rn't...
> 
> "Briefly, I had another thought. I imagined myself standing in the heart of an RSS or VHP rally being addressed by L.K. Advani. Replace the word Islam with the word Hindutva, replace the word Pakistan with Hindustan, replace the sea of green flags with saffron ones, and we would have the BJP's nightmare vision of an ideal India.
> "
> 
> I for one hate any extremism on the basis of religion becoz .. if we patronize our religions and let extremists control it... be islam, chritianity or hinudism.. its a defeat for us... I for one strongly object dividing a nation on the basis of religion.... Never in the history except for twice in 1945-1947 has a country got birth or got partitioned based on just religion !!
> When Roy sympathizes with kashmiris by just hinting that she finds it ok for kashmiris to chant Pakistan just becoz it is islamic and they believe only Allah but when some otehr organization RSS does that she says it's nightmare !! when its a nightmare becoz of defining an ideal nation based on one religion then even to some extent kashmiri's patronizing pakistan becoz its islamic republic too needs to be called nightmare !! 2 yardsticks !!! bit****.......



The difference is that the RSS uses religion as a jingoistic tool to assert supremacy over others. The Kashmiris use religion as a uniting force to fight occupation and oppression.

The RSS wants to impose Hinduism on everyone. The Kashmiris don't want to convert anyone. They just want to be left alone.


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## Developereo

dvk1982 said:


> Not just India but any country on the face of earth rejects seperatists movements... what wud u say if some balochs protest pakis saying even they were not involved merging their province back then !!!



All people have the right for self-determination.

Pakistan mistreated the Bangalis and they left. If we continue mistreating the Balochis, and a sufficient majority of Balochis want to leave Pakistan, then Pakistan would need to do some soul searching and address the issue. Either address their concerns or let them go.

India should do the same.


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## Developereo

DesiGuy said:


> lol, i live in USA.



We're _everywhere_.....

*BOO*


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## arihant

Developereo said:


> All people have the right for self-determination.
> 
> Pakistan mistreated the Bangalis and they left. If we continue mistreating the Balochis, and a sufficient majority of Balochis want to leave Pakistan, then Pakistan would need to do some soul searching and address the issue. Either address their concerns or let them go.
> 
> India should do the same.



For me, I don't Balochis ever want to leave Pakistan. It's just they want Justice. Similar is with India, they want Justice but it has been hide by Terrorism.


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## arihant

Developereo said:


> The difference is that the RSS uses religion as a jingoistic tool to assert supremacy over others. The Kashmiris use religion as a uniting force to fight occupation and oppression.
> 
> The RSS wants to impose Hinduism on everyone. The Kashmiris don't want to convert anyone. They just want to be left alone.



Again you have put Religion in the matter of Land. Now as you have put, let me add that 300000 Kashmiri Pandit because of Terrorism. What you claim this ? India has Article 307, which restrict anyone to settle in Kashmir.


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## Developereo

gubbi said:


> Lol matey, I chose not to reply to that one because it was another piece of blogged junk!



Indian organization report (Sachar Commission), Indian Christian groups, US and International organizations' reports, first-hand interviews with relatives of Sikh victims...

Yep, it'all blogs, mate. And I bet all these organizations are owned by ISI. The Sikh woman was an ISI operative for sure...

I can understand why you want to stick your head in the sand and ignore the realities from which you were shielded throughout schooling and mainstream Indian media.

Oh, happy days....


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## Developereo

arihant said:


> Again you have put Religion in the matter of Land. Now as you have put, let me add that 300000 Kashmiri Pandit because of Terrorism. What you claim this ? India has Article 307, which restrict anyone to settle in Kashmir.



I did not inject religion.

I was responding to the claim by one of the posters that AR is showing double standards re: RSS and Kashmiris.


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## Developereo

gubbi said:


> Like the poor common man really has a choice when facing the business end of a Kalashnikov!!



Exactly!
With 700,000 Indian thugs around to enforce 'loyalty' to India, the Kashmiris are brave indeed to keep on resisting.



gubbi said:


> I really dig fiction!



Well, then, you just keep right on reading the mainstream Indian media...

It's all one giant Bollywood Incredible India commercial.


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## manish

Developereo said:


> Sri Lanka, Tibet and Taiwan are not flying Pakistani flag.
> Kashmiri people are.



who is flying pakistani flag can go to pakistan thats simple..
if i fly the american flag then can america say the indian land is mine?rofl:


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## Developereo

arihant said:


> For me, I don't Balochis ever want to leave Pakistan. It's just they want Justice. Similar is with India, they want Justice but it has been hide by Terrorism.



Both India and Pakistan can do a lot better to try and keep their people happy.

If India uses soft power to woo the Kashmiris, then they may well change their mind and decide to stay with India, and Pakistan will have a much harder time finding separatist supporters.

Same goes for Pakistan and Balochistan.


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## Developereo

arihant said:


> If you read my earlier post, you will get known that Kashmir was always independent until you attack which force King to annex it to India.



Kashmir was independent but the people wanted to go with Pakistan. The King was pro-India.

Ironic that democractic India should align herself with a tyrant over the wishes of his own people.


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## luoshan

I feel the only way for India to control Kashmir is the way Chinese control Xinjiang..
Summarily execute all the separatists. The Hurriyat people are too pampered. They are openly doing anti-India activities within Indian territory without fear of any repercurssions. Just machines gun down these Pakistani flag waving people. No country can tolerate such activities. There will be cries from human rights groups for some time.. and then everything will go to normal.
If a bullet is fired from a village/town.. just carpet bomb that village/town. Re-settle patriotic Indians in Kashmir, like the Han Chinese do in Xinjiang. Instead, the Kashmiri pundits are driven out of their ancestral homelands. The situation has to be reversed. India has to become more aggressive. Learn from the Chinese how they control Xinjiang and Tibet.
India should not be too worried about Pakistan. Just treat it with indifference. Pakistan will be doing anti-India activities, no matter what is the situation in Kashmir. I think India can handle whatever worst Pakistan can throw at India. Pakistan has tried everything to grab Kashmir, and failed. Today India is stronger militarily, politically and economically than it was ever was in last 60 years.

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## Developereo

luoshan said:


> I feel the only way for India to control Kashmir is the way Chinese control Xinjiang..
> Summarily execute all the separatists. The Hurriyat people are too pampered. They are openly doing anti-India activities within Indian territory without fear of any repercurssions. Just machines gun down these Pakistani flag waving people. No country can tolerate such activities. There will be cries from human rights groups for some time.. and then everything will go to normal.
> If a bullet is fired from a village/town.. just carpet bomb that village/town. Re-settle patriotic Indians in Kashmir, like the Han Chinese do in Xinjiang. Instead, the Kashmiri pundits are driven out of their ancestral homelands. The situation has to be reversed. India has to become more aggressive. Learn from the Chinese how they control Xinjiang and Tibet.
> India should not be too worried about Pakistan. Just treat it with indifference. Pakistan will be doing anti-India activities, no matter what is the situation in Kashmir. I think India can handle whatever worst Pakistan can throw at India. Pakistan has tried everything to grab Kashmir, and failed. Today India is stronger militarily, politically and economically than it was ever was in last 60 years.



Why do you continue hiding behind a Chinese persona?
Are you so ashamed of your Indian heritage?


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## arihant

Developereo said:


> Why do you continue hiding behind a Chinese persona?
> Are you so ashamed of your Indian heritage?



He is ashamed of All Asia.

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## luoshan

Developereo said:


> Why do you continue hiding behind a Chinese persona?
> Are you so ashamed of your Indian heritage?



I'm neither hiding from anything nor ashamed of anything.


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## gubbi

luoshan said:


> I feel the only way for *India to control Kashmir is the way Chinese control Xinjiang..
> Summarily execute all the separatists. *The Hurriyat people are too pampered. They are openly doing anti-India activities within Indian territory without fear of any repercurssions. Just machines gun down these Pakistani flag waving people. No country can tolerate such activities. There will be cries from human rights groups for some time.. and then everything will go to normal.
> If a bullet is fired from a village/town.. just carpet bomb that village/town. Re-settle patriotic Indians in Kashmir, like the Han Chinese do in Xinjiang. Instead, the Kashmiri pundits are driven out of their ancestral homelands. The situation has to be reversed. India has to become more aggressive. Learn from the Chinese how they control Xinjiang and Tibet.
> *Today India is stronger militarily, politically and economically than it was ever was in last 60 years*.



I do agree with the Chinese model. Or for that matter even the Israeli one. We should just eliminate those vociferous voices calling for an armed rebellion. Period. These are the same people who enjoy the fruits of Indian constitution while demonizing our society. Its about time our govt grows some balls, instead of only acting through diplomacy.
Oh and anyway, Indian secularism is constantly under scrutiny in these very forums and apparently the world over - so some believe, so lets give them a real reason to be worried about our secular credentials.
To Hell With Habeas Corpus!

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## Hyde

*More unmarked graves discovered in held Kashmir​*
Updated at: 1311 PST, Friday, August 21, 2009
More unmarked graves discovered in held Kashmir SRINAGAR: A rights group has discovered several unmarked graves containing about 1,500 unidentified bodies in held Kashmir valley.

Members of the Association of Parents of Disappeared Persons (APDP) said that at least eight of the graves had more than one body likely of the innocent people killed by Indian paramilitary forces.

"We've found that at least eight are mass graves as they contain more than one body," the APDPs lawyer, Pervez Imroz told media men here.

"We have found more graves of about 1,500 people buried as unidentified persons in three remote districts during our ongoing survey," Pervez Imroz, said.

The latest report from the districts of Baramulla, Kupwara and Bandipore is part of the APDP's ongoing survey of the northern parts of the held Kashmir . Last year, in a report titled, "Facts Under Ground", the APDP had reported discovery of unmarked graves of about 1,000 people near Uri in Baramulla district.

After that report, the Amnesty International had called for an independent probe into the unnamed graves.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Cholan said:


> I support Kashmir freedom, if people of pakistan support Srilankan Tamil, Tibet, Taiwan, Freedom.., after all each people has right to choose their way of living and freedom... but somehow., these people only support kashmir, and turns a blind eye for Srilankan Tamil and Tibet.,


Sri Lankan Tamil, Tibet, Taiwan etc. are not claimed as disputed territory by Pakistan, so why should we get involved in them. Pakistan supports a plebsicite to allow the people of J&K to determine their future destiny because J&K is disputed territory between India and Pakistan, as attested by the UNSC resolutions that were passed and accepted by India, Pakistan and the world community.

Your argument is therefore irrelevant.


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## Peshwa

So Im going to be presumptious here and say that you're implying that somehow the IA is responsible for this???......Any proof that these "unmarked mass graves" were the work of Indian armed forces??

How did anyone figure out that 1 out of 8 bodies was innocent....did the bodies have a stamp or something??

Sorry.....I call BS....I also call this a concocted report by a Geo reporter!!


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## pmukherjee

There are mass graves allright, but further north.

"*The people of Gilgit and Baltistan resisted establishment of militant training camps and the use of Baltistan as the launching pad for infiltration into India. Pakistani militants have never been fair with the people of Gilgit and Baltistan. Locals still talk about the genocide of 1988 when the militants attacked Gilgit and massacred innocent people. On their way out, they abducted hundreds of women. Eleven years have passed and no one knows what happened to those women. Further, locals also knew that by allowing their land to become the launching pad for militancy, they were inviting the unwanted wrath of the Indian army. In case war broke out, it was the land and people of Baltistan and Ladakh which were going to suffer the damage and not Pakistan. Given this background, the locals demanded that all the camps should be closed and militants should be moved out. In one incident, people of Skardo town engaged in armed skirmishes with the militants that led to imposition of curfew. In Gilgit, the locals managed to kill some militants who threatened the lives and property of the people. Despite this stiff resistance from the locals, the ISI continued its operation from Gilgit and Baltistan into Ladakh.*

::IDSA Strategic Comments:: Reclaiming Nubra  Locals Shunning Pakistani Influences by Senge H. Sering ::


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## s90

luoshan said:


> thats great. 1,500 scum from across LOC 6 feet down under..



I agree,Kashmiris living on your side of the border are also from Pakistan.


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## dabong1

Pakistan should press the UN to send a team to investigate the mass graves.....more then likely it will be woman and children killed in cold blood by the indian occupation army.

---------- Post added at 04:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:32 PM ----------




pmukherjee said:


> There are mass graves allright, but further north.
> 
> "*The people of Gilgit and Baltistan resisted establishment of militant training camps and the use of Baltistan as the launching pad for infiltration into India. Pakistani militants have never been fair with the people of Gilgit and Baltistan. Locals still talk about the genocide of 1988 when the militants attacked Gilgit and massacred innocent people. On their way out, they abducted hundreds of women. Eleven years have passed and no one knows what happened to those women. Further, locals also knew that by allowing their land to become the launching pad for militancy, they were inviting the unwanted wrath of the Indian army. In case war broke out, it was the land and people of Baltistan and Ladakh which were going to suffer the damage and not Pakistan. Given this background, the locals demanded that all the camps should be closed and militants should be moved out. In one incident, people of Skardo town engaged in armed skirmishes with the militants that led to imposition of curfew. In Gilgit, the locals managed to kill some militants who threatened the lives and property of the people. Despite this stiff resistance from the locals, the ISI continued its operation from Gilgit and Baltistan into Ladakh.*
> 
> ::IDSA Strategic Comments:: &#8220;Reclaiming Nubra&#8221; &#8211; Locals Shunning Pakistani Influences by Senge H. Sering ::




And that somehow compares to the hundreds of thousands killed in kashmir by the indians.


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## dabong1

bandit said:


> So whos gonna do the "JIhad for peace"...I m sure you 're coming along since you believe in it so deeply



Just as long i see you on the other side i will be there in a flash.


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## Spring Onion

*Mass Graves Uncovered In Indian Kashmir*

The Associated Press



*Rights workers have discovered several unmarked graves containing about 1,500 unidentified bodies in Indian Kashmir, a prominent rights group said Thursday, alleging that some of corpses were likely innocent people killed by government forces.*Researchers from the Association of Parents of Disappeared People, or APDP, which represents relatives of people who have disappeared in the violence, says at least eight of the graves held more than one body.
An Indian official said the bodies were likely those of militants killed over the past 20 years in fighting for control of the Himalayan region. But the government has also opened an investigation into such graves.

We have found more graves of about 1,500 people buried as unidentified in three remote districts during our ongoing survey. We've found that at least eight are mass graves as they contain more than one body.
- Pervez Imroz, lawyer for the Association of Parents of Disappeared People
Separatist groups there are fighting for the Indian-controlled portion's independence from predominantly Hindu India or its merger with mostly Muslim Pakistan. *More than 68,000 people, most of them civilians, have been killed in the uprising and the subsequent Indian crackdown.*
*Last year in a report titled, "Facts Under Ground" APDP had reported finding the unmarked graves of about 1,000 people near Uri, an area near the de facto frontier that divides Indian- and Pakistani-controlled Kashmir and referred to as Line of Control.
"We have found more graves of about 1,500 people buried as unidentified in three remote districts during our ongoing survey," Pervez Imroz, the group's lawyer, said in an interview Thursday. "We've found that at least eight are mass graves as they contain more than one body."*
The latest report from the districts of Baramulla, Kupwara and Bandipore is part of the APDP's ongoing survey of the northern parts of Indian Kashmir, which is near the Line of Control and will eventually broaden to the rest of the state.
After last year's revelations, Amnesty International called for an independent probe into the unmarked graves.
On Thursday, Ramesh Gopalakrishnan, a researcher on the London-based rights group's South Asia team, said there had been no "responsible and serious" response on the subject by either the state or federal governments.


Indian authorities had dismissed the earlier revelations but this year the State Human Rights Commission, a government body formed after widespread allegations of human rights abuses by the army, paramilitary and police in the state, sought information on the issue.

"The state government has yet to respond to our notice," said Farooq Ahmed, an official of the commission said Thursday.
All the state officials reached by the Associated Press declined to comment on the subject.

However, one senior police officer who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter, said authorities launched an investigation last year when the revelations were first made. "Hundreds of foreign militants have been killed since the militancy started, and many of them have died in gunbattles on borders. Everyone knows they have been buried as unidentified," he said.

*Human rights workers have complained for years that innocent people have disappeared, been killed by government forces in staged gunbattles, and suspected rebels have been arrested and never heard from again.
Rights groups say there have been an estimated 8,000 to 10,000 disappearances since the anti-India rebellion began in 1989*. 


*Anti-India sentiment runs deep in Kashmir, a region divided between India and Pakistan, but claimed by both.*
The government says most of the people who disappeared are Kashmiri youths who crossed into neighboring Pakistan for weapons training.
The state government said Monday that 3,429 people have disappeared from their homes while 110 others disappeared from the custody of government forces in the past two decades.

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## Spring Onion

luoshan said:


> thats great. 1,500 scum from across LOC 6 feet down under..



Here is something for you 



*The acknowledgement of the crime against Taleban prisoners by Northern alliance warlords may help to focus attention on the fate of many Pakistani and Afghan Taleban who were flown to India for investigations and are reportedly lying in one of the many mass graves that dot the IHK landscape ; particularly in Baramula district.*

*The Indian clout that led to transfer of Taleban prisoner to India is linked to her crucial support to Northern Alliance during their rainy days in the period 1996-97*. 

India was instrumental in cobbling together disparate non-Pashtun Groups including Uzbek Jumbish-e-Milli (Rashid Dostum), Tajik Jamiat-e-Islami (Burhanuddin Rabbani) and Hazara Hizb-e-Wahdat (Karim Khalili) under the overall leadership of the charismatic Tajik commander Ahmad Shah Masood. 


*When the tables were turned onto Taleban in the wake of the US sponsored assault by Northern Alliance Forces in Oct 2001, India was ready to harvest the windfall. A diplomatic mission headed by their special Envoy for Afghanistan, Satindar Lambah landed in Kabul on 21 Nov 2001; even before inauguration of the Afghan Interim set up. Lt Gen (Retd) Sawhney, ex Chief of RAW, was nominated as the Indian Ambassador and he effectively laid out a formidable network of intelligence ingress in the post-Taleban Afghanistan.*


*
So just as Dostum was consigning thousands of Taleban to death by suffocation and later dumping their bodies into mass graves of Dasht-e-Leili , a team of RAW officials was busy selecting Pakistani and Afghan nationals for flying to India&#8217;s own undisclosed Guantanomo to be used as clay pigeons for fake encounters and promoting the thesis of &#8220;cross-border-terrorism&#8221;. The Indian Team led by a major general was given free access to prisoners held in the Dashtak Jail in Panjshir. 

The selected prisoners were shifted to 6 Frontier Corps Headquarters at Kunduz under facilitation by Marshal Faheem and Younas Qanooni. They were flown to Dushanbe by two MI 17 helicopters for an airlift to New Delhi on 25 Jun 2001 by an IL-76 IAF aircraft. According to sources the aircraft had flown for the mission from the Hindon airbase a day earlier. In another incident a batch of 300 prisoners of Pakistani and other assorted nationalities was airlifted by Indian intelligence agencies from the Northern Alliance jails in Shibberghan and Bagram in November 2001.

Having disappeared without a trace, these hapless people in all probability landed in the mass graves &#8211; much like their Dasht-e-Leili compatriots &#8211; after having been shot in one of the countless fake encounters that keep on coming to surface with a sickening regularity in Indian Held Kashmir.*


Kashmiri Mass Graves Demand Attention as well Mr. Obama! | Pakistan Daily

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## Spring Onion

*Kashmir; from paradise to mass graves*

Nazia Nazar July 28, 2008

Recently, the European Parliament passed a resolution calling upon the government of India to ensure an impartial investigation into the unidentified mass graves discovered in the disputed state of Jammu and Kashmir. The adoption of this resolution by the European Parliament despite the hurdles created by the Indian lobby is, indeed, laudable. The resolution was passed soon after a report by the Srinagar-based Association of the Parents of Disappeared Persons (APDP) came to the fore, indicating the existence of mass graves in many areas of Indian-Held Kashmir (IHK). Since 2006, the graves of at least 940 Kashmiris are reported to have been discovered in 18 villages in the Uri district alone. 

Apart from the APDP report about mass graves, Angana Chatterji, co-convener of the International People&#180;s Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice in Indian-administered Kashmir, is also the eyewitness of those unmarked mass graves which she found during her visit to Baramulla and Kupwara districts. She expressed her deep concern over human rights violations in IHK in her article titled &#180;Mass graves in Kashmir&#180;. Angana Chatterji, an Indian citizen, is being harassed by Indian security and intelligence personnel after her revelation of mass graves.

Most of those buried in the graves are believed to be the missing persons who became the victims of fake encounters by the Indian armed forces. The relatives of those missing persons had hoped that their loved one would return to them one day. Such an innocent hope cherished by an old Kashmiri carpenter was shattered when he was summoned for exhumation where the dead body of his missing son was found. "He is my son," the old man cried in sheer agony and pain while identifying the dead body. His son, his only hope, was shot dead and secretly buried by the Indian security forces despite the fact that he was a harmless civilian. This story caught media attention last year but it was not the only tale of horror. Killing of local residents in fake encounters is quite common in Kashmir. The discovery of mass graves in IHK is a clear indication that genocide of Kashmiri Muslims is being carried out silently by 700,000 Indian troops which are stationed there.

In April 2008, Amnesty International (AI) had urged the Indian government to launch urgent investigation into the mass graves, which were thought to contain the remains of victims of human rights abuses in the context of the armed conflict that has raged in the region since 1989. Norwegian government has termed &#180;alarming&#180; about new discoveries of unidentified graves in IHK despite the fact that India is signatory to the UN&#180;s Convention for the Protection of All Persons from Enforced Disappearances. 

To cover up its guilt, the Indian army had stated that those found buried were &#180;foreign militants&#180; killed lawfully during the armed encounters with the security forces. However, local villagers bear witness that most buried were local residents of nearby villages. Under international pressure, the Indian government claims that it would dismiss those soldiers who are involved in human rights violation. If this is the case then the Indian government should dismiss its 700,000 troops which have been involved in the massacre of 90,000 innocent Kashmiri men, women and children for the last two decades. The data containing the incidents of human rights violation in IHK is heart-rending. According to an unofficial estimate, 6,878 Kashmiris have been killed in Indian custody while more than 10,000 people disappeared, 106,818 children orphaned, 22,473 women lost their husbands and 9,813 women gang-raped. 


According to the UN, "An estimated one million (Kashmiri) women have been bereaved, tortured or humiliated and beaten up or killed; many hundreds have been subjected to barbaric sexual assaults. Sexual harassment is used as a weapon to force people into submission." The miseries of Kashmiri Muslims do not end here. All the methods of torture are used to subjugate the Kashmiri people such as severe beatings, electric shocks, suspension by the feet or hands, stretching the legs apart, burning with heated objects, crushing the muscles with a heavy wooden roller, gouging of eyes, applying a hot iron rod to the flesh in a manner similar to the branding of animals, inserting sharp needles into the eardrums, etc. Such gory incidents are a routine affair in Kashmir where Muslims are punished simply because they cherish the dream of freedom.

It is happening because Indian security personnel have been given unlimited power of using force against Kashmiris through countless draconian laws such as Prevention of Terrorism Act (POTA), Terrorism and Disruptive Activities (Prevention) Act (TADA), Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA), and the Jammu And Kashmir Disturbed Areas Act (DAA). With these powers, it is impossible to hold security forces accountable for human rights violations carried out by them. If some prosecutions are made, the cases remain in courts for years and the accused remain on job without any fear. 

With the discovery of mass graves, the European Union (EU) through its resolution has invited India to investigate the matter impartially but, unfortunately, New Delhi has refused to provide access to the United Nations Military Observers (UNMO). The onus lies on the international community to press upon India to stop its state terrorism and allow international human rights organisations to look into the massive acts of human rights abuses in Held Kashmir. India should also be pressurized to repeal those draconian laws under whose shadow human rights violations are taking place. Demilitarisation of Kashmir until the issue is resolved amicably could mitigate the sufferings and agonies of Kashmiri Muslims. 

Kashmir, which is considered a paradise on earth for its enchanting scenic beauty, is now turning into a &#180;secret&#180; graveyard of its own inhabitants who cherish the dream of freedom. It is happening in the 21st century when thousands of human rights organisations, philanthropic NGOs, and most important, the UNO exist in this world. Is it not a mockery and travesty of justice? 

American Chronicle | Kashmir; from paradise to mass graves

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## Khajur

While mass graves are being unearthed in the valley and the whole pakistan media knows about it...but there is no voice of concern being raised from the state politicians or even by the separatist Huriyat guys who calls bandh of pity issues every other day ...making indian media,consequently indian ppl complelty unaware of it . 

Its may be the news is pakistan specific.


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## BATMAN

^^ India people are not able to read the book of Jaswant Singh! Shall we blame Jaswant Sing?
Kashmiris have no control over media and fear of mass killing is enough to keep many mouth shut.


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## Nemesis

> First, because we all know that the first part of the slogan is the embarrassing and unadorned truth about India, the emerging superpower. Second, because all Indians who are not nanga or bhookha areand have beencomplicit in complex and historical ways with the cruel cultural and economic systems that make Indian society so cruel, so vulgarly unequal.



Hilariously ironic. So does Arundhati Roy - who resides in the poshest colony of new delhi - count herself as one of the complicit that makes Indian society so cruel and so vulgarly unequal? 

I think Arundhati Roy is a very good author, and she does talk sense most of the time, but this is not one of them.


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## Spring Onion

Nemesis said:


> Hilariously ironic. So does Arundhati Roy - who resides in the poshest colony of new delhi - count herself as one of the complicit that makes Indian society so cruel and so vulgarly unequal?
> 
> I think Arundhati Roy is a very good author, and she does talk sense most of the time, but this is not one of them.


Hey good to see you here Nemesis

And the last time i checked the emotional indians have termed all her work as sensless whereas the sane elements do agree India does have a society so cruel and so vulgarly unequal.


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## DesiGuy

Developereo said:


> This is not a matter of opinion.
> These are documented facts.
> 
> We, on this forum, have the luxury to debate this as an abstract concept, but thousand of Kashmiris have lost their life or been tortured or raped because they believe strongly enough to fight for their freedom.
> 
> And countless Indian and Pakistani soldiers have also died over this.
> 
> This is a matter of human rights that India suppresses by force because, as many Indians have admitted, releasing Kashmir would open the floodgates to other ethnic movements within India.






And, Will Pakistan let live Kashmir a, without interfering in it?


i don't think so.


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## DesiGuy

Developereo said:


> We're _everywhere_.....
> 
> *BOO*





when i was a kid, you could do nothng, now what will you do?


Kill, no wonder.


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## vandemataram

pak-marine said:


> no one likes to fly indian flag in pak!



Well no one likes to fly Indian flags in Pakistan ...do we had to do with force...like in 1965


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## Y2A

Khajur said:


> While mass graves are being unearthed in the valley and the whole pakistan media knows about it...but there is no voice of concern being raised from the state politicians or even by the separatist Huriyat guys who calls bandh of pity issues every other day ...making indian media,consequently indian ppl complelty unaware of it .
> 
> Its may be the news is pakistan specific.



*The news is just an out break of the sequence of events took place previously and probably main stream indian media "diligently" ignored it as they were expecting some thing like this, no vioce from hurriyat is bit of mind wobbling for me, i would like to POST an article on the issue by Dr. Angana Chatterji, which may will clear that indian media was not that "unaware" of the matter.*


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## Y2A

*Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Kashmir 
Dr. Angana Chatterji 
09 July, 2008 Font size: 
Dirt, rubble, thick grass, hillside and flatland, crowded with graves. Signifiers of military and paramilitary terror, masked from the world. Constructed by institutions of state to conceal massacre. Placed next to homes, fields, schools, an army practise range. Unknown, unmarked. Over 940 graves in a segment of Baramulla district alone. Some containing more than one cadaver. Dug by locals, coerced by the police, on village land. Bodies dragged through the night, some tortured, burnt, desecrated. Circulating mythology claims these graves uniformly house &#8216;foreign militants&#8217;. Exhumation and identification have not occurred in most cases. When undertaken, in sizable instances, records prove the dead to be local people, ordinary citizens, killed in fake encounters. In instances where bodies have been identified as local, non-militant and militant, it demystifies state rhetoric that rumours these persons to be &#8216;foreign militants&#8217;, propagating misrepresentation that the demand for self-determination is prevailingly external. Mourned, cared for, by locals, as &#8216;farz&#8217;/duty, as part of an obligation,
stated repeatedly, to &#8216;azadi&#8217;. &#8216;Azadi&#8217;/freedom to determine self and future.
On 18 and 20 June, the International People&#8217;s Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice in Indian-administered Kashmir (&#8216;Tribunal&#8217;, convened in April 2008, International People's Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice in Indian-Administered Kashmir) visited Baramulla and Kupwara district to conduct ongoing fact-finding and verification related to mass graves at the behest of local communities.
The team comprised of Tribunal Conveners Advocate Parvez Imroz and myself, a staff member, and camera crew.
On 18 June, we visited Raja Mohalla in Uri, Baramulla district, 110 kilometres from Srinagar, where 22 graves were constructed between 1996-1997. Then to Quazipora, where 13 bodies were stated as buried in seven graves in 1991. Then we travelled to Chehal, Bimyar village, Uri, holding 235 graves. We re-met Atta Mohammad, gravedigger and caretaker at Chehal, who testified that these bodies, brought by the police, primarily
after dark, were buried between 2002-2006. Atta Mohammad said that the bodies appear in his nightmares, each in graphic, gruesome detail. Terrorised by the task forced upon him, his nights are bereft of sleep. Then we travelled to Mir Mohalla, Kichama, Sheeri, to the main graveyard with 105 graves, stated to hold about 225-250 bodies, buried between 1994-2003, and a smaller graveyard, with nine graves, adjacent to a sign proclaiming it a &#8216;Model Village&#8217;.
On 20 June, we visited the northern district of Kupwara. On the way we witnessed army convoys, including one of 21+ vehicles. Created in 1979 through the forking of Baramulla district, approximately 5,000 feet above sea level, Kupwara borders the Line-of-Control to the north and west. Between Shamsbari and Pirpanchal mountain ranges, it is one of the most heavily militarised zones, about 95 kilometres from Srinagar. Kupwara houses six army camps, as military and paramilitary forces occupy significant land. Seven interrogation centres have been operational with police stations functioning as additional interrogation cells. In Handwara town, a watchtower surveils and regulates movement.
In Kupwara, we visited Trehgam village, holding 85-100 graves, 24 of which are identified, and spoke with community members. Trehgam was home to Maqbool Bhat (b. 1938), founding figure of the Jammu Kashmir National Liberation Front. Acknowledged as Shaheed-e-Kashmir, Bhat is labelled a &#8216;terrorist&#8217; by certain segments of India. He sought to unite the territories of the former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir into a secular, sovereign, democratic state. Bhat was sentenced to death by the Supreme Court of India and hanged in Tihar jail in New Delhi on 11 February 1984. Maqbool Bhat&#8217;s nephew, Parvaiz Ahmad Bhat, reminded us that Habibullah Bhat, Bhat&#8217;s brother, was the first case of enforced disappearance before 1989.
After Trehgam, we reached Regipora around 3 pm and stopped for lunch. There, two persons introduced themselves as Special Branch Kashmir (SBK) and Counter Intelligence Kashmir (CIK) personnel, and questioned the Tribunal staff member about our visit. After responding, we proceeded to the &#8216;martyrs&#8217; graveyard&#8217; holding 258 graves, constructed in 1995. This burial ground is meticulously ordered, each grave numbered. The body of a 20-25 year old youth was buried in the first week of June, reportedly killed in an encounter in Bamhama village.
We stopped at a roadside tea stall to speak with local people about the graves. Four intelligence personnel questioned us, asking we disclose information about those we had visited. Soon, four additional SBK and CIK personnel joined the questioning. Other intelligence personnel made phone calls. By then, about 12 intelligence personnel gathered. Following further questioning we proceeded toward Srinagar. A car followed at a distance.
We detoured to Sadipora, Kandi, where locals stated that around 20 bodies were buried. The graveyard, overrun with wild flowers, is part of a larger ground used during festivals, including Id. Two of four bodies, killed in a fake encounter on 29 April 2007, were exhumed, identified as locals, contrary to police records stating them to be &#8216;Pakistani terrorists&#8217;. Saidipora holds Riyaz Ahmad Bhat&#8217;s grave, killed in the encounter, age 19. Police records, per the First Information Report, declared him a &#8216;Pakistani terrorist&#8217;. Riyaz Bhat was identified by Javeed Ahmed, his brother, as a resident of Kalashpora, Srinagar, based on police photographs from the time of death. Ahmed travelled with the Tribunal to take us to his brother&#8217;s grave. On his knees Javeed attempted to clear the thick brush. Later, in Srinagar, he testified that Bhat had never been involved in militancy. Javeed spoke of grieving, of imprisonment and beatings at the police station. He asked how he could have saved his brother from death.
After Sadiapora, we were stopped at Shangargund, Sopore, at about 6.40 pm, by three persons in civilian clothing. They forcibly boarded the car. We were ordered to the Sopore Police Station. There we were asked to detail our identity, employment, the purpose of the visit, and to hand over tapes which, the police alleged, contained &#8216;dangerous&#8217; and &#8216;objectionable&#8217; material. We stated that the Tribunal, a public process, was undertaking its work peaceably, lawfully, with informed consent, and that we had not visited restricted areas. We stated that the police had no lawful reason to seize the tapes. We were detained for 16 minutes.
After several calls to senior police persons, we were released. A red Indica car followed us to Sangrama. At Srinagar, Intelligence personnel were stationed at my hotel. On 21 June, I was followed from the hotel to the Tribunal&#8217;s office in Lal Chowk, where about 8 personnel were stationed the entire day questioning anyone who entered or left the office.
My mother, residing in Calcutta, received a query regarding my whereabouts from the District Magistrate&#8217;s Office. I was followed to the Srinagar airport on 22 June, and questioned, asked if I possessed dual citizenship. I do not. I am a citizen of India and a permanent resident of the United States. On 24 June, I arrived in Bhubaneswar to submit a statement to the Commission of Inquiry on the Kandhamal violence against Christians in 2007 in Orissa. There too, Central Intelligence officials persistently inquired after me. In April, after announcing the Tribunal, I was stopped and harassed at Immigration while leaving India for the United States, and again on my re-entry in June.
The targeting of the Tribunal has not abated since the Amarnath issue erupted around 23 June. The volatile proposal to transfer 800 kanals of land to the Shrine Board, revoked on 01 July, was supported by the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party and Hindu militant Shiv Sena. Despite the Sena&#8217;s recent call to Hindus to form suicide squads, it faces no sanctions from the state. Kashmiris of diverse ethnicities and religions dissented the Amarnath land transfer. Community leaders in Kashmir explained that their stance against the proposal is not in dissent to Hindu pilgrims, but a repressive state. During the Amarnath land transfer protests, civil disobedience paralleled that of 1989, amid severe repression. On 30 June, in curfew-like conditions, we met with two families in Srinagar who narrated that the police had shot dead their sons. At one place, in the old city, while the men took the body for burial late at night, the police returned and destroyed property and molested women.
On 30 June, at about 10:10 pm, Parvez Imroz and his family were attacked at home by state forces, who fired three shots and hurled a grenade while exiting when family and community interrupted their attempts. Neighbours reported seeing one large armoured vehicle and two Gypsy cars, and men in CRPF (Central Reserve Police Force) and SOG (Special Operations Group) uniforms. This murder attempt is an escalation in the forms of state-led intimidation and targeting aimed at Advocate Imroz. It is an attempt to make the Tribunal vulnerable and instil fear in us in an attempt to stop this process.
On 01 July, we met at Khurram Parvez&#8217;s home before addressing a press conference. Outside, jeeps with plainclothes men continued their observation, accompanied by a jeep with armed men in uniform.
Later, Advocate Imroz, Khurram Parvez, Advocate Mihir Desai, and I went to the police station to lodge a First Information Report. We were not permitted to do so. For security reasons, Parvez Imroz is not staying at home. Khurram Parvez remains under surveillance.
I must allow for distance before revisiting the graves. On 04 July, sitting on a plane at Delhi International Airport, waiting to take-off, I received a phone call on my India mobile, caller &#8216;Unknown&#8217;: &#8220;Madam,we know you&#8217;re leaving. Think wisely before coming back&#8221;.
Orders to unnerve the leadership of the International Tribunal by the Government of India&#8217;s intelligence and security administration appear to be generated at the highest levels. The general policy of surveillance should not be used as a pretext to create obstacles for our work. As India argues for a seat on the United Nations Security Council, the Government of India, as &#8216;Frontline Defenders&#8217; stated in their recent alert supporting the Tribunal, must adhere to its own repeated commitment to peace in Kashmir and international conventions and laws. It must uphold democratic governance and safeguard human rights.
Advocate Imroz, Khurram Parvez, other members of the Tribunal team, have long experienced injustices for their extraordinary work as human rights defenders. A lauded human rights lawyer, Parvez Imroz has survived two, now three, assassination attempts, the first from militants. Since 2005, his passport has been denied. Khurram Parvez lost his leg in a landmine incident. Gautam Navlakha and Zahir-ud-Din have been intimidated and threatened, as has Mihir Desai, in their larger work. It is noteworthy that the Government of India is adding intimidation to the death and rape threats delivered me by Hindu extremists for human rights work.
The work of the Tribunal is an act of conscience and accountability, fraught with the charge of complex and violent histories. Its mandate, in documenting Kashmir&#8217;s present, is to chronicle the fabric of militarisation, status of human rights, and legal, political, militaristic &#8216;states of exception&#8217;. The Tribunal&#8217;s work will continue through the coming months. We have received extensive solidarity from civil society; victims/survivors, at street corners, from villagers, ordinary citizens, those committed to justice. Each life in Kashmir has a story to tell. The subjugation of civil society has produced magnificent ethical resistance. The state cannot combat every individual.
Nearly two decades of genocidal violence record 70,000+ dead, 8,000+ disappeared, 60,000+ tortured, 50,000+ orphaned,incalculable sexualised and gendered violence, a very high rate of people with suicidal behaviours; hundreds of thousands displaced; violations of promises, laws, conventions, agreements, treaties; mass graves; mile upon mile of barbed wire; fear, suppression of varied demands for participation to determine Kashmir&#8217;s future, spirals of violence, protracted silence. Last year, Kashmir&#8217;s only hospital with services for mental health received 68,000 patients. Profound social, economic, and psychological consequences,and an intense isolation have impacted private, public, and everyday life. It has generated brutal resistance on the part of groups that have engaged in violent militancy. Repressions of struggles for self-determination and international
policies/politics have yielded severe consequences, creating a juncture at which the failure of governance intersects with a culture of grief.
Torture survivors, non-militants and former militants, that I met with testified to the sadism of the forces. Reportedly, a man, hung upside down, had petrol injected through his anus. Water-boarding,mutilation, rape of women, children, and men, starvation, psychological torture.
Brutalised, &#8216;healed&#8217;, to be brutalised again. An eagle tattoo on the arm of a man was reportedly identified by an army officer as a symbol of Pakistan-held Azad Kashmir, even as the man clarified the tattoo was from his childhood. The skin containing it was burned. The officer, the man stated, said: &#8220;When you look at this, think of azadi&#8221;. A mother, reportedly asked to watch her daughter&#8217;s rape by army personnel, pleaded for her release. They refused. She pleaded that she could not watch, asking to be sent out of the room or be killed. We were told that the soldier pointed a gun to her forehead, stating he would grant her wish, and shot her before they proceeded to rape the daughter. We also spoke with persons violated by militants. One man stated that people&#8217;s experiences with the reprehensible atrocities of militancy do not imply the abdication of their desire for self-determination. This, he stated, is a mistake the state makes, conflating militancy with the intent for self-determination.
He clarified that neither is self-determination an indication of allegiance to Pakistan, largely to the contrary.
The continuing and daunting presence of military and paramilitary forces, increased and sophisticated surveillance, merges with pervasive and immense suffering and anger of people in villages, towns, and cities across Kashmir. Parallel to the presence of 500,000 troops and commitment to nuclearisation, official figures state that there are about 450 militants in Kashmir and that demilitarisation is underway. In March 2007, three government committees on demilitarisation resolved that the &#8216;low intensity war continues&#8217;, placing in limbo troop reduction and the repealment of draconian laws -- the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, 1958, imposed in Jammu and Kashmir in December 1990, and the Disturbed Areas Act, 1976, enacted in 1992. Local realities reflect that these laws and the military seek to control the general population with impunity.
Kashmir is increasingly defined as a &#8216;post-conflict&#8217; zone. &#8216;Post-conflict&#8217; is not the propagation of tourism toward an overt display of nationalism. Post-conflict is a space in which to heal, reflect, and enable civil society participation in determining peace and justice. The graves speak to those that listen. Those haunted by history are called to remember.

(Dr Angana Chatterji is associate professor of Social and Cultural Anthropology at the California Institute of Integral Studies and co-convener of the International People&#8217;s Tribunal in Kashmir. A shorter version of the article appeared in Tehelka magazine&#8217;s recent issue).*

source: The Daily Etalaat Srinagar - Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Kashmir

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## brahmastra

These bodies are may be of your so called freedom fighters whom you sent to the kargil and when we shot their @ss you denied to take them back. And with no other option we had to send them down the earth.


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## EjazR

Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - 30 CRPF companies withdrawn, 5 Police battalions to be raised: DGP

Srinagar, August 23: Ruling out immediate release of detained separatist leaders, Director General Police, Kuldeep Khoda on Sunday said 30 companies of CRPF have been pulled out from Central and South Kashmir while New Delhi has agreed to raise five more battalions of police.
Quoting Khoda, local news agency KNS, said separatists could not be released since they disturb daily lives of people.
The DGP said if separatists stop annoying people then government could rethink whether to release them or not.
He said 30 companies of CRPF have been pulled back while 18 new companies of Jammu Kashmir Armed Police and IRP have been deployed in Srinagar and Baramulla.
DGP said police had committed some mistakes during anti-insurgency operations which lead to law and order problem. He said the authorities have now decided to keep separate 18 companies of police to look after law and order problem.
He said centre has agreed to their request of raising more battalions of police. Khooa said to begin with, five more battalions of police would be raised.


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## garibnawaz

Omar has shown hopes. Lets see if he delivers.

GB


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## asq

brahmastra said:


> These bodies are may be of your so called freedom fighters whom you sent to the kargil and when we shot their @ss you denied to take them back. And with no other option we had to send them down the earth.



What a shame bra.

You talk about dead people so lightly as if they were not worthy of being humans.

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## asq

garibnawaz said:


> Omar has shown hopes. Lets see if he delivers.
> 
> GB



It is not a hope it is an Indian trick to continue with fake encounters by police as Indian police did in east Punjab.

We know it too well to believe it.

A jackal cannot change his style even if it darns the cheetah spots.


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## Y2A

brahmastra said:


> These bodies are may be of your so called freedom fighters whom you sent to the kargil and when we shot their @ss you denied to take them back. And with no other option we had to send them down the earth.



*The "so called freedom fight" happened at kargil and bodies we are talking about are scattered all around the occupied valley, you would've come with a better excuse then this, read the article and statements of the wittiness and view of the author.

who had foots pope up to thier @sses by whom is quite clear by looking at the out come of the operation from "bahadur saina" which hardly able to recapture dozen of posts out of more then 130 before Clinton come to their rescue, don't drag the topic to another subject.*


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## rubyjackass

Death in Kashmir - The New York Review of Books

Nice work about Kashmir. I myself did not finish reading.


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## Developereo

DesiGuy said:


> And, Will Pakistan let live Kashmir a, without interfering in it?



If there is a free and fair plebiscite in Kashmir (hopefully monitored by the UN), both India and Pakistan must accept the decision.



DesiGuy said:


> i don't think so.



As always, what _you_ think is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what the Kashmiris think.


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## Developereo

DesiGuy said:


> when i was a kid, you could do nothng, now what will you do?
> 
> 
> Kill, no wonder.



And yet your media blames Pakistan everytime there is a traffic accident in India. 

We really have you guys spooked...


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## asq

EjazR said:


> Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - 30 CRPF companies withdrawn, 5 Police battalions to be raised: DGP
> 
> Srinagar, August 23: Ruling out immediate release of detained separatist leaders, Director General Police, Kuldeep Khoda on Sunday said 30 companies of CRPF have been pulled out from Central and South Kashmir while New Delhi has agreed to raise five more battalions of police.
> Quoting Khoda, local news agency KNS, said separatists could not be released since they disturb daily lives of people.
> The DGP said if separatists stop annoying people then government could rethink whether to release them or not.
> He said 30 companies of CRPF have been pulled back while 18 new companies of Jammu Kashmir Armed Police and IRP have been deployed in Srinagar and Baramulla.
> DGP said police had committed some mistakes during anti-insurgency operations which lead to law and order problem. He said the authorities have now decided to keep separate 18 companies of police to look after law and order problem.
> He said centre has agreed to their request of raising more battalions of police. Khooa said to begin with, five more battalions of police would be raised.



promises, promises, promises.

And regarding release. 
to little too late.

another Indian trick.


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## asq

Cholan said:


> I support Kashmir freedom, if people of pakistan support Srilankan Tamil, Tibet, Taiwan, Freedom.., after all each people has right to choose their way of living and freedom... but somehow., these people only support kashmir, and turns a blind eye for Srilankan Tamil and Tibet.,



How can we suport in Srilanks where you prime minster was gun butted due manily to your interferance. 

watch the video.

http://sangam.org/taraki/articles/2006/images/Rajiv1987hit.jpg






in Tibet your are harboring a guy who's family ruled Tibet for centuries and what did they do. No Tibetan were allowed to talked to this guy unless he crawled for 1oo meters.

Read on.

Dalai Lama's utter distortion of Tibet history

Taiwan is an integral part of china it was and it is, what and how chines like to rule their country id their bussiness and with present progressess that china had mae are an envy to the wolrd and there fore people of differant srripes wnat to see china fail, too bad for those nincumpoops, shina will remain steadfast and will emerge as a power to be contend wirh.

too long Chinese has been taken advantage of, their achievements taken and used by others to make their names too long Chinese have to suffer from opium addiction introduced in their society by others, they want to be masters of their fate and no one should have objection to it.

china has shown a class act in Hong Kong and there is no reason it will fail in Taiwan if all is done peacefully based on historical facts and ground realities.

Imagine the other option of war, it would not only destroy Asia, but the whole world, so be wise and do the right thing.


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## Y2A

gubbi said:


> In all honesty - its a hard pill to swallow for us Indians - Kashmiris want FREEDOM! Not India, surely not Pakistan, but total Freedom! I know its hard for some members to digest, but that's the (ugly)truth!
> I really find it hard to reconcile Kashmiri Pundits and Kashmiri Sufi Islam existing peacefully within Pakistan society, as of today. (not a flame bait, trolls refrain please)
> And trust me, I know!



*Really appriciate the spirit you showed in your post really indian mass should think about what you have observed, but i have a question, Care to explain "Kashmiri Sufi Islam", i only know one Islam, kindly note that thier is nothing like sufi islam or redical islam or SULFI islam, its only islam and mulsim a system and its followers an entity and it paradigm 

Sufism in Islam is closer spiritual dimension of a well practitioner of Islamic shariya, a special person who further seeks Allah's pleasure by denying the luxuries of life but only for himself and his chosen companions, its like a special course and not every one is eligible for it, it has its own prerequisites.

Sufism is a subset of Islamic teachings, and it is absolutely different from monk-ism way of life or Paul-ism version of leaving the normal life behind the monastery walls and denying self respect, Sufis and saints are all about self respect, Sufis of Islam have over the years emerged as not only the spiritual inspirations which can be observed in people like hazrat Sultan Baho,Hazrat Fareed Gunj, Hazrat Lal Shaibaz Qalander but they also as the influential political leaders and even freedom fighter of their time like Mujadid ALif sani, Sha Waliillah ,Imam Shamil, Fakir Aibee and other uncountable personalities, who were regard at the same time as the spiritual and political figures to follow.

People have to stop believe about the myth that the Sufism only means acceptance of dominance of the occupier, it is an old imperial way of thinking and if we glance through he history well find many emperors in their times promoted Buddhism and similar ideologies as state religion because they thought the actual essence of these type of ideologies will help them ruling over the mass which is made to believe that to deny the human nature of getting attract to freedom is a part of their religion and that the IMPOSED ruler has right to suppress them because it is the process of purifying from the bad deeds they commit in their life, this or previous, with all due respect with other faiths and their teachings, Sufism in Islam is light years away from these perceptions it focuses on relation between man and his creator that Allah and make him absolute immune from other materialist medium, it is all about fortitude of spiritual freedom 1st and to reach that point freedom is the quintessence of Islamic sufi, hope I cleared my self.*


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## forcetrip

gubbi said:


> In all honesty - its a hard pill to swallow for us Indians - Kashmiris want FREEDOM! Not India, surely not Pakistan, but total Freedom! I know its hard for some members to digest, but that's the (ugly)truth!
> I really find it hard to reconcile Kashmiri Pundits and Kashmiri Sufi Islam existing peacefully within Pakistan society, as of today. (not a flame bait, trolls refrain please)
> And trust me, I know!



I actually quite agree with this .. We Pakistanis need to accept that the time for Kashmir to be a part of Pakistan has long passed .. Kashmir wants its freedom which does not translate into it wants to be a part of Pakistan. The ugly truth is Paksitan will never let this go and neither will India.

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## Vivek Sharma

Developereo said:


> You are absolutely right.
> Indian and Pakistani media cannot be compared.
> 
> Pakistan has media outlets like DAWN.com which routinely critisize Pakistan's foreign policy re: India and Afghanistan, and publish pro-India articles by Indian columnists.
> 
> Indian media, for the most part, is right wing, jingoistic, nationalist trash with a monolithic narrative against Pakistan. It is filled with juvenilem tabloid rants against Pakistan. There is not one mainstream Indian media outlet which even dares to publish a Pakistani viewpoint.
> 
> 
> 
> Read DAWN.com (Nadeem Paracha, Huma Yousuf, etc. etc.)
> 
> There are others, but start with DAWN.




f this was true that this idiotic and leftist moron Arundati roy would not able to write a column which would be comparable to be balsphamous ...

i know for sure what would have happened to a person in pakistan if he wrote similar column about baloch or kashmir...

in pakistan , people cannt make fun of mr 10 percent ...

forgrt the freedom of media in pakistan


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## TaimiKhan

asq said:


> http://sangam.org/taraki/articles/2006/images/Rajiv1987hit.jpg
> 
> b0ikJgypnzE[/media] - 1987-indo lanka peace pact



He really whacked the sh** out of Mr. Gandhi, i guess Mr. Gandhi last second ditch saved him from a direct blow to the head, as the main impact was taken by the shoulder, if it had been straight to the head, God knows what would have happened. 

The Naval guy behind the PM was brave enough to take quick action, but look at the dude who was holding the sword, he ducked down to save his own aass as if the blow was coming to him


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## Vivek Sharma

kashmir is infact azaad , 

what we should be talking about is Pakistan occupied kashmir P O K and Asin China (China occupied kashmir)


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## hembo

An interesting responce to AR's column I found in outlook article only:

Arundhati Roy is considered to be a great novelist but that does not necessarily mean that she is prudent enough to give such irresponsible and quick judgement on a sensitive issue such as this. I would like to ask Ms. Roy is this the way of tackling issues that have the potential to affect our national unity and integrity? About three lakh people joined a non violent movement on a day in a protest against India, their own country. They have been shouting slogans against India and doing what not and our so called intellectual Ms. Roy gives a verdict that India is actually colonising Kashmir and that Kashmir should be freed. I would like to ask Ms. Roy can she or anybody else guarantee that this will stop after the so called freedom has been obtained. Can you guarantee that people in no other state would start using the same means for getting freedom. After all we all know that Kashmiris are not the only people who are sick of our government and its policies, most of us are. Does that gives us a liscence to raise Pakistani flags instead of the Tricolour, to shout insulting slogans against our mother land and to ask for a separate country for our state? Is this the solution? *Take a mob of several lakhs and get a free separate country, quite simple isn't it*? Than Ms. Roy what about India? *Today it is Kashmir tomorrow who can guarantee that it will not be Arunanchal or Tamil Nadu or Nagaland or Goa or any other state for that matter asking for freedom*? If this is the way of going about it than what will remain of the country that is mine as well as yours. When people of your caliber suggest such silly prescription you should at least be responsible enough to give it a second thought before sending to the press to be published and to be read by the whole country. I do agree that the armed forces should not be given the complete charge, not only in Kashmir but in any part of the country as they are not meant for administration. They are our muscle power and meant for protecting our borders. They should not be sent for controlling situations such as these for such long periods of time otherwise we will have more or less the same results as we are having in Kashmir. In my opinion the best possible way of treating such situations is of giving boost to education and economic growth. The people there are so desparate and listening to people of Hurriyat mainly because they see no economic growth in proportion to the growth that people in other parts of the country are making. The government should actually try to create an environment for creating more job opportunities there by creating conducive enviromnent for tourism industry and other economic activities keeping in mind the geographical and economic necessacities of Kashmir. More importance needs to be given to education which is still way down in the list of priorities of the government. When the people especially our youth will be educated and when there will be enough jobs for them in the valley itself and when they will not have the feeling of insecurity regarding their future, believe me Madam, they won't need this mirage of freedom to sacrifice their lives and happiness and we will be having our country as we know it....One and united from Kashmir to Kanyakumari. Jay Hind.
Atul
Kanpur, India

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## Patriot

Vivek Sharma said:


> kashmir is infact azaad ,
> 
> what we should be talking about is Pakistan occupied kashmir P O K and Asin China (China occupied kashmir)


Yeah Buddy thousands of Pakistani Kashmiris protest regularly waving Indian flag and asking for Azadi from Pakistan and Pakistan had to deply hundred thousands of Army Men to main law and order situation.

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## vsdoc

Thank you.

Cheers, Doc


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## Developereo

hembo said:


> An interesting responce to AR's column I found in outlook article only:



Well, the difference is that Kashmir is disputed territory.
India may not think so.
But Pakistan thinks so.
And the UN thinks so.

If India is so insecure about her other states, then that is a problem for India to resolve. You can't continue to punish Kashmiris for problems elsewhere in India.

And, as AR states, the ongoing problem of Kashmir fuels religious tensions throughout the rest of India. Indian Muslims are held hostage to Kashmir. As long as Kashmir remains a flashpoint, India will never resolve its internal Hindu-Muslim tensions.

India is actually very lucky because of Pakistan's utter incompetence in diplomacy and propaganda. A smart Pakistan would have leveraged the plight of Kashmir's Muslims to isolate India from the wider Muslim world. As it is, most Muslim countries prefer to do business with India over Pakistan.


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## vsdoc

@ developereo ..... I feel the process of normalisation has already started and is gaining steam. Elections are a regular affair in Kashmir now ..... with a very healthy voter turnout even by National standards. Violence has abated and you have only a few sporadic incidents once in a while, but nothing of the intensity and frequency of before. The majority of Kashmiris realise that their fate is irrevocably interwoven with that of India ..... and when they look at the plight of their brothers and sisters under pakistani occupation and Pakistan's current state of affairs across the country, even the few die-hard brainwashed elements realise that they are fighting against a tide that is inevitable and gathering momentum with each passing day of peace. The next step will necessarily have to be rehabilitation of Hindu Pandits back on their ancestral land by the Indian Government. Once that happens, the religious tensions would automatically abate in the entire country as justice would be done, and the flashpoint you refer to would no longer have the spark to flash anymore. We Indians look forward to that as Kashmir is ours and an entire generation has stayed away from enjoying the beauty of our own land, because of the efforts of those across the border who were not yet satisfied after their efforts 62 years ago divided the land in the first place and in doing so sowed the seed of communal discord in the land and people they left behind. When you see this through the analogy of a family, you will see why I used the term "prodigal brother" in one of my earlier posts.

Cheers, Doc


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## Developereo

vsdoc said:


> The next step will necessarily have to be rehabilitation of Hindu Pandits back on their ancestral land by the Indian Government.



I am sure the Kashmiri Muslims are looking forward to that day!

At least you are honest enough to admit the long term agenda of the Indian government.


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## EjazR

Developereo said:


> I am sure the Kashmiri Muslims are looking forward to that day!
> 
> At least you are honest enough to admit the long term agenda of the Indian government.



Well just to clarify, these are Kashmiri pandits displaced by Hizb's action making up around 300 000 people. These are Kashmiris. So Omar Abdulla's government steps to rehabilitate these people back in the valley is the right decision. And even the pro-Independence separatist groups like JKLF(M) have welcomed this. 

Infact, it is a little known fact that intially all KAshmiris including Hindus were willing to gain Independace from India, but when militant groups started to move towards religious fanaticism, they quikly gave up the idea. 
Here is an interesting article on this by a Kashmiri Pandit
Hizbul Mujahideen and the Pandits

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## EjazR

PDP Brought AFSPA, We'll Revoke It: Omar

Srinagar, Aug 27, KONS &#8211; Asserting that Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) will be revoked during the tenure of his government with the gradual improvement in the situation, the Chief Minister, Mr. Omar Abdullah Thursday said in the Legislative Assembly that PDP has brought AFSPA in the State and &#8220;God willing, we will revoke this during our tenure of the government&#8221;.
The Chief Minister was replying the 2-day discussion on his grants in the House. He had moved the Demand for grants yesterday morning for the departments under his charge and 42 members spoke on the grants during the two days. As many as 529 cut motions were moved by the members to discuss the departments under the control of the Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister told PDP opposition that records bear testimony that during the three years tenure of PDP they neither talked of any political solution of Jammu and Kashmir nor said anything about removing AFSPA or de-militarization. &#8220;I have gone through all records and not found even a letter or any reference that your Sar Parast (Mufti Mohammad Sayeed) has ever written about any of these matters to the Prime Minister or made any reference in the Unified Command meetings&#8221;, he maintained.
Quoting the statement of Mufti Mohammad Sayeed made at Ganderbal after his taking over as Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir telling the people &#8220;Mujahideen ab bundook rakho aap key numaindey aap key liye baat karney aayain hain (Mujahid: You drop the gun now, as your own representatives have come to talk for you). Mr. Omar said that after making this statement, the PDP patron and the then Chief Minister never talked about this issue nor took any action in this direction.
&#8220;You may look by your statements to be anti-national but I do not consider you or your actions anti-national in any manner as the records again bear testimony to the same&#8221;, he said adding that in the first seven months of PDP government 850 militants were killed and in the year 2003 the number of militants killed was 1490 while as it stood at 976 in 2004 and 917 during 2005. The Chief Minister said that the records of Parliament are also testimony to the fact that Ms. Mehbooba Mufti, the then Parliament Member, never spoke even a word in the Parliament about Kashmir issue, AFSPA, de-militarization, etc.
Omar said that someone has rightly coined the name of &#8216;demand supply&#8217; politics for PDP adding that the party tailors the slogans according to the market needs. &#8220;The records speak loud and clear about your politics of making hollow slogans according to need of the market&#8221;, he said giving the example of the Amarnath land row. He said that PDP was part and parcel of the decision regarding the Amarnath land grant but sensing the pulse of people, it took the party minutes to take u-turn ditching its own partner. He also referred to the opening of Srinagar-Muzaffarabad road and said that PDP left no occasion to get credit for the decision made by India and Pakistan. &#8220;However, when out of power Ms Mehbooba Mufti at a seminar in Jamia Melia said that the opening of Srinagar-Muzaffarabad road was mere a gimmick (Dekhawa). Similarly, PDP cries on the top of its voice about task force, when in fact it is the same party which strengthened the task force and passed on it to Mr. Azad&#8217;s government where from my government inherited the force. This all substantiates the correct coinage of &#8216;demand supply&#8217; politics made for the PDP&#8221;.
*Omar said that voices are also being raised about the land under the occupation of army and security forces. Explaining the facts, he said that out of the total land under the occupation of army and security forces, 35 percent is in Jammu, 46 percent in Ladakh region and 17 percent in Kashmir Valley. &#8220;When army and security forces are defending our boundaries they have to be placed somewhere&#8221;, he said.*
Omar said that the graph of human rights violation has been lowest during the seven months of his government and efforts were on to bring it to the zero level. *Giving figures he said that during the period of November 2, 2002 to June 18, 2003 the civilians killed in the State in violence acts were 517 while as the figure during the last seven months of his government stood at 53. *Similarly, there has been remarkable decrease in the violence acts during the same period. He said while as 851 militants were killed during November 2002 to June 2003, militants killed during January 5, 2009 to August 21, 2009 were 148, likewise 42 police personnel were killed between November 2002 to June 2003 while as the number stood at only 6 during the last seven months of his government.
Omar said that the concern of his government to uphold human rights under all circumstances is loud and clear. &#8220;Whenever any incident of human rights violation was reported, we acted promptly and delivered on ground&#8221;, he said citing the example of Bomia, Khaigam, Larkipora, Baramulla and the individual cases of Mr. Manzoor Ahmad Baig and Mr. Asrar Ahmad Dar of Maisuma.
Referring to the Shopian incident, Mr. Omar said that since this unfortunate and heinous crime took place, he has not come out of the impact of the tragedy and is constantly thinking about booking the culprits and punishing them severely whosoever high he may be.
Omar said that for the first time since last 20 years the Republic Day function on 26th January and Independence Day function on 15th August were held in a conducive and peaceful atmosphere without interfering with the daily life routine of the people. *&#8220;This can be visualized by the fact that on the Independence Day 2.5 lakh locals and tourists visited Pahalgam and over 1.5 lakh Gulmarg&#8221;, *He said and added that to bring J&K police on forefront and the security forces on the second line, is the determination of the coalition government which will be achieved gradually.
Omar said that his government has taken steps to strengthen State Human Rights Commission and the recommendations of the Commission with regard to complaints of human rights are being actively considered. He said the Empowered Committee in its five sittings has considered all the recommendations made by State Human Rights Commission and disposed off 141 during last seven months. While as, out of 1008 recommendations made by the Commission 578 have been disposed off so far.
*The Chief Minister said that his government does not want to detain leaders like Syed Ali Shah Geelani but is compelled to take this action for the maintenance of law and order and safeguarding the general masses from unnecessary violence, killings and harassment.* However, he said the graph of his government on this count is even better than that of PDP government during which 228 arrests were made and 142 releases effected in the first seven months. While as during the seven months of my government only 152 people were arrested and 121 released. *Of the arrestees, 17 were foreign terrorists and 33 timber smugglers, he said, &#8220;I do not want to hold the separatist leaders under PSA even for a day extra if they do not disturb law and order. It is unfortunate they abet the innocent youth to resort to uncalled for stone-pelting on security forces putting their lives to danger while they, their children and families relish the comforts of their homes.*
The Chief Minister made it clear that his government would work for restoring the two track dialogue channel between India and Pakistan and the Centre and the State involving all shades of opinions to realize political settlement of all issues pertaining to Jammu and Kashmir. &#8220;I have learnt that the Chairman, Working Group on Centre-State relations, Mr. Sageer Ahmad is submitting the recommendations of the group to the Prime Minister, but I would like him to at least convene a meeting of the members of the group for final review of the recommendations before the report is submitted&#8221;.
On unemployment crises, the Chief Minister said that his government has provided jobs to 12000 educated youth in seven months and 41000 more jobs will be provided to youth by December 2010. &#8220;We are trying our best to accommodate the educated youth in government service but the problem could not be solved by the government alone&#8221;, he said and added that we have kept provisions in the budget to encourage self-employment and constitute Oversee Employment Corporation to address the problem in a bigger way.
Justifying on spot recruitment in police department for the youth of far-flung and cut-off areas like Gurez, Machhil, Bani, Keran, Karneh, Zanskar, Marwah, Warwan, etc the Chief Minister said that this is being done to provide opportunity to the youth of these areas to get their share in the police recruitment. &#8220;There is no political interference at any level in this regard&#8221;, he said adding that the Police Department itself makes this recruitment as per the laid norms.
On power development, the Chief Minister said that during the next six years his government intends to generate 4000 MWs of power indigenously. He said a three pronged policy is being implemented to achieve the goal of harnessing maximum of 14000 MWs hydel potential of Jammu and Kashmir. &#8220;While some projects are being constructed under the State sector, certain projects are being implemented through NHPC and PPP mode is also being applied for joint ventures. Certain people are also making unnecessary cries about involving NHPC in the construction of power projects&#8221;, he said and added that government would take every decision in favour of the State and its people. There is no question of mortgaging or selling the waters of Jammu and Kashmir&#8221;, he made it clear and said that there are two options before us either to get zero out of the 100 percent we have or get 50 percent of the 100 percent we possess&#8221;, he added.
Referring to the handing over of operation and maintenance of Baglihar project to NHPC, the Chief Minister said that previous government&#8217;s had not made any provision of building trained staff to run the project on its own, as such, &#8220;we had to enter into a contract with NHPC for two years for management, operation and training of J&K engineers. We had either to keep the project shut or put it into the raw hands which could have damaged the project&#8221;, he said and made it clear that NHPC is only maintaining and operating the project for only two years which is 100 percent owned by the State government.
The Chief Minister said that his government is actively thinking of placing lump sum amounts at the disposal of District Development Boards in each district so that the Board earmarks these according to the needs of the particular district. &#8220;We are also enhancing the district plan to 50 percent and putting in a place a mechanism for remote, cut-off and far-flung areas to ensure that the allocations made for these areas do not lapse with the lapse of the financial year. A notification of such areas would be issued shortly&#8221;.
Omar said that he has also decided that the intra sectoral saving re-appropriation for every district would be made by the Chairman of the District Development Board so that the funds available are utilized in that district itself. &#8220;We are also bringing the central schemes under the purview of District Development Boards&#8221;, he added and said that additionalities for the districts will be made in the month of January instead of March to enable the district administration to spend the money before the end of financial year.
Omar said that the challenge before the government is not the availability of funds but &#8220;we have the challenge of spending the Rs. 5500 crore Plan funds plus Rs. 1200 crore under PMRP in right direction, judiciously and within the targeted period&#8221;. He asked the public representatives to extend their whole hearted support to the government in ensuring judicious expenditures in the right direction. &#8220;You have to play an important role as the members of District Development Boards to ensure that money available is spent properly and to the fullest benefit of the people at grassroots&#8221;, he appealed the legislators.
In response to the demand for enhancing the Constituency Development Fund for the legislators, the Chief Minister said that this year it has been raised from Rs. 35 lakhs to Rs. 50 lakhs and in the coming years its further enhancement would be considered positively keeping in the view the expenditures made on this count on various development works.
*All the cut motions were withdrawn by the members and the grants of Chief Minister unanimously passed after the spellbound speech of about 120 minutes made by him in the House.*


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## vsdoc

Developereo said:


> At least you are honest enough to admit the long term agenda of the Indian government.



Is there something wrong in that? Are the Pandits not equally Kashmiri as the Muslims?

It is not just the Indian government, but the Indian people whose one point agenda this is.

Then why give a Pakistani Islamic color to our country's sovereign internal matters dealing with one of our many states?

Cheers, Doc


----------



## jarnee

Developereo said:


> It is a principled response to people who explicitly ask for our help *by name*
> 
> Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan



Let me say that again to you from Kashmiri's.... "Toota phhota Ujdda Pakistan"..Only option is Hindustan


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## Developereo

vsdoc said:


> Is there something wrong in that? Are the Pandits not equally Kashmiri as the Muslims?
> 
> It is not just the Indian government, but the Indian people whose one point agenda this is.
> 
> Then why give a Pakistani Islamic color to our country's sovereign internal matters dealing with one of our many states?
> 
> Cheers, Doc



OK. I didn't know how many Hindus were forced out of their homes in 1947.

If so, they are entitled to return, of course.


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## vsdoc

Developereo said:


> OK. I didn't know how many Hindus were forced out of their homes in 1947.
> 
> If so, they are entitled to return, of course.



Thank you for understanding.

This did not happen in 1947, unless of course you are referring to Pakistan's incursion and encroachment by force into the part of Kashmir they occupy to this day.

This happened in the late 80s.

My ex-boss and senior from Medical college, Dr. Raina, as well as another doctor colleague of mine today, Dr. Sharma, are both dispalced Kashmiri Pandits, so I know the sense of hurt, anger, and loss they feel, at being refugees in their own country. 

Cheers, Doc


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## humblehobbes

There is one question to Pakistani Posters here.. 
Why is there a dichotomy of perceptions between two news items which is sourced from India. 

On One hand, You all seem to hail Arundhati(sic) Roy. On the other hand, its thumbs down for the poor dude, who wrote that Pakistan is responsible for plight of Indian muslims! Surely, this is quite a twisted view of things


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## Developereo

humblehobbes said:


> There is one question to Pakistani Posters here..
> Why is there a dichotomy of perceptions between two news items which is sourced from India.
> 
> On One hand, You all seem to hail Arundhati(sic) Roy. On the other hand, its thumbs down for the poor dude, who wrote that Pakistan is responsible for plight of Indian muslims! Surely, this is quite a twisted view of things



Hmm. I think you probably intended to post this in the 'birth' thread.

In any case, AR was referencing specific events where ordinary Kashmiri people were waving Pakistani flags and chanting anti-India, pro-Pakistan slogans. The events themselves are factual, however one may disagree with the people involved.

The 'birth' poster, on the other hand, was merely speculating completely out of the blue, without any evidence to support his premise.


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## vsdoc

The "birth" poster was putting into words the popular sentiment of most Indians, including our Muslims about whom the article is written. You may debate whether the sentiment is justified or not, but as an aware Indian in tune with the mood of my country, I can tell you this sentiment is surely there and all-pervasive.

Cheers, Doc


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## Developereo

vsdoc said:


> The "birth" poster was putting into words the popular sentiment of most Indians, including our Muslims about whom the article is written. You may debate whether the sentiment is justified or not, but as an aware Indian in tune with the mood of my country, I can tell you this sentiment is surely there and all-pervasive.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Then that is unfortunate indeed.
You are saying that most Indians are still hung up about the partition.
I thought Indians claimed they don't care about Pakistan and have moved on...


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## humblehobbes

Devreo. I feel that partition was a bad idea. Look at my country. as far as i see in my city down south, people are harmonious and hardly any fights on religious lines. I see fights on caste basis, which are localised in villages. ( thanni prechana, vaika prechana). IF 150 million people are able to live peacefully, save the occasional flare ups, I dont think why the entire muslim community of the Pakistan and BD had to go their own way and why the 3 countries had to live in a wary state of fear


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## Developereo

humblehobbes said:


> Devreo. I feel that partition was a bad idea. Look at my country. as far as i see in my city down south, people are harmonious and hardly any fights on religious lines. I see fights on caste basis, which are localised in villages. ( thanni prechana, vaika prechana). IF 150 million people are able to live peacefully, save the occasional flare ups, I dont think why the entire muslim community of the Pakistan and BD had to go their own way and why the 3 countries had to live in a wary state of fear



Well, there is a whole thread where people are debating this issue.

But the fact is, it happened, and it is time to move on.
I don't see what can be gained by _what-if_s


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## hembo

Slightly off the topic.

I think Indian posters are far more tolerant to Arundhati Rai even after she writing such BS then our Pakistani friends to Asma Jahangir. You should visit the other thread about Asma Jahangir, where she is titled with many interesting adjectives (including Typical lefty lesbo A.J) and compare it with the very mild citisism of AR here).

Asma Jahangir: A Saffron Crusader


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## vsdoc

Developereo said:


> Then that is unfortunate indeed.
> You are saying that most Indians are still hung up about the partition.
> I thought Indians claimed they don't care about Pakistan and have moved on...



Yes we have a "hang up" about Partition ..... it was our land that was divided.

We don't really concern ourselves about Pakistan as long as pakistan stays in pakistan ..... it however becomes a concern for us when pakistan affects our country and our people (read our muslims in general, and our kashmiri muslims in particular).

Hope that puts things in the correct Indian perspective for you.

Cheers, Doc


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## Developereo

vsdoc said:


> Yes we have a "hang up" about Partition ..... it was our land that was divided.



Say good night, Gracie..


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## vsdoc

Good night Gracie.


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## Halaku Khan

*IBNLive : Kashmir college principal beaten up, told to enfore hijab*

Mufti Islah
CNN-IBN



TROUBLED TIMES: Moral policing is again on the rise in Kashmir. (Representative pic) 
New Delhi: Moral policing is again on the rise in Kashmir. The principal of a co-ed college in Sopore has been threatened with serious consequences if he doesnt enforce the Islamic dress code to the 3,000 women students within three days. 


Fifty-five-year-old Mohammad Ashraf Peer says he was abducted by seven armed men, thrashed and detained for several hours. 


Their message was that Islamic dress code should be enforced in college. I believe they have called many other principals in the area and given the same orders, Peer said.


This is the first major instance of moral policing in more than a year. In the early 90s during the initial years of militancy, women were strictly asked to observe the purda. But most Kashmiri women ignored that diktat. 


Then, more recently most women again resisted a move by Dukhtaran-e-Millat leader Asiya Andrabi to impose the hijab. And this time as well the women students are defiant. 


The way they handled our principal was wrong. If they wanted the veil to be enforced they should have come and asked us. Next they will force this diktat on our teachers then to us, this is unacceptable, a student said.


Meanwhile, the police have started an investigation. They say there could also be a non-militancy angle. 


The separatists have so far remained silent over the matter.


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## deep.ocean

What can you expect from bunch of Mullah. These guys are kind of Religious Phychos and should be given a good treatment.

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## DesiGuy

Developereo said:


> And yet your media blames Pakistan everytime there is a traffic accident in India.
> 
> We really have you guys spooked...






And, So what do you expect from your so called enemy, India?


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## Patriot

vsdoc said:


> Yes we have a "hang up" about Partition ..... it was our land that was divided.


You said it!I knew and mentioned several times here that Indians are unable to reconcile to the fact that Pakistan is a separate independent state.There is no doubt that your dreams of Ahkhand Bharat will continue till the cows come home.The partition of Akhand Bharat is something something that will continue to haunt you Indians till eternity... to put it bluntly.


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## MilesTogo

Why only Kashmiri Muslims, what about the rest of the Indian Muslims - don't they deserve freedom?


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## Patriot

MilesTogo said:


> Why only Kashmiri Muslims, what about the rest of the Indian Muslims - don't they deserve freedom?


I think Kashmir is more of a ethnic insurgency mixed with religious flavor..What do you think?


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## MilesTogo

Patriot said:


> I think Kashmir is more of a ethnic insurgency mixed with religious flavor..What do you think?



I thought the religious component of it was primary driver. Anyways...

my point was that rather that freeing Kashmir now and then a decade later having another Muslim faction demanding freedom - free all of them at once.

Although - piecemeal process might work as well but it is too slow and painful.


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## Patriot

You want to breakup India?


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## MilesTogo

Patriot said:


> You want to breakup India?



No - I want India to free all Muslims including Kashmiris.


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## Patriot

and how do you plan on doing so?


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## MilesTogo

Patriot said:


> and how do you plan on doing so?



Thats a good question...

I think there are two ways of doing this - 

1. Re-draw the state lines India based on Muslim concentration. Then declare all the Muslim majority states as free. Rest Hindu/Sikh/Budhist states then can decide if they want to continue together or become independent as well.
2. Find an area corresponding to the Muslim populations in India closer to Pakistan/Kashmir and Bangladesh and then shift all the Muslims to these two/three new states and all the non-msulims to remaining India. New states might be Kashmir, Pakistan II and Bangladesh II. They may either decide to join with Pakistan, Bangladesh resp. or become free nations. Essentially the area will come out of current Gujrat, Haryana, Rajasthan, Punjab, Himachal, West Bengal, Tripura, Assam etc.

I personally like option 1 but two might work fine as well.


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## Spitfighter

Well the fact of the matter is that all the flag hoisting, stone throwing, effigy burning nonsense is irrelevant. Its the same story in Tibet. India can and will control any disruptions in the state's affairs, any and all outside interference will be countered. 

If there's ever going to be a settlement, it will have to account for India's strategic concerns (water especially). The Northern Areas, Azad Kashmir and Aksai Chin will also have to be a part of the settlement. 

India will not and should not make any concessions to Pakistan, nor is it keen on the balkanization of South Asia. IMO, the best we can hope for is a small, jointly administered region carved out of AK, IK and NA. 

w.r.t China, they can always be brought into the loop later. A settlement of the Kashmir issue is not in their interest, so they would be more than happy to drag their feet on the issue. India and Pakistan need to move on. 

I think a settlement is not in our favor right now, it might be a better idea to wait for another 5 years, the situation in Pakistan and Afghanistan is still evolving, I think down the line India will be able to bargain from a position of considerable strength, and while the settlement might not necessarily be on our terms, we might be able to make it a little more favorable, certainly permanent.

At the moment, I think it is in the interest of both India and Pakistan, that Pakistan throw its weight behind the American campaign, and take credible and firm action against any and all terrorists on its soil. 

Only when that happens can we really get the ball rolling on Kashmir. 

I think the Afghan war will change the political dynamic in South Asia forever, this is going to be a very interesting and tumultuous period, mostly for Pakistan. There are many opposing forces at play in Pakistan. Lets wait and watch, we will all have much to discuss here at Pakistan Defence. 

Regards.

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## Spitfighter

MilesTogo said:


> Thats a good question...
> 
> I think there are two ways of doing this -
> 
> 1. Re-draw the state lines India based on Muslim concentration. Then declare all the Muslim majority states as free. Rest Hindu/Sikh/Budhist states then can decide if they want to continue together or become independent as well.
> 2. Find an area corresponding to the Muslim populations in India closer to Pakistan/Kashmir and Bangladesh and then shift all the Muslims to these two/three new states and all the non-msulims to remaining India. New states might be Kashmir, Pakistan II and Bangladesh II. They may either decide to join with Pakistan, Bangladesh resp. or become free nations. Essentially the area will come out of current Gujrat, Haryana, Rajasthan, Punjab, Himachal, West Bengal, Tripura, Assam etc.
> 
> I personally like option 1 but two might work fine as well.





What nonsense is this? why only religion? lets do it on a language basis too! 

you might want to think a little harder.


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## MilesTogo

Spitfighter said:


> What nonsense is this? why only religion? lets do it on a language basis too!
> 
> you might want to think a little harder.



Because Muslims and non-Muslims can not live together.


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## Spitfighter

MilesTogo said:


> Because Muslims and non-Muslims can not live together.



Tell that to my Muslim girlfriend, she'll nag you till your ears fall off, and believe me that would only be the start. 

Also, you should be ashamed of yourself. People like you have ruined my country. I feel sorry for you, but mostly I feel sorry for India. 

This is why developing nations can never match the power and wealth of the West. They're still stuck in tradition, lost in another time. All this religious/cultural garbage, ........................................dumbasses.

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## MilesTogo

Spitfighter said:


> Tell that to my Muslim girlfriend, she'll nag you till your ears fall off, and believe me that would only be the start.
> 
> Also, you should be ashamed of yourself. People like you have ruined my country. I feel sorry for you, but mostly I feel sorry for India.
> 
> This is why developing nations can never match the power and wealth of the West. They're still stuck in tradition, lost in another time. All this religious/cultural garbage, ........................................dumbasses.



You are getting unnecessary emotional...


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## Spitfighter

MilesTogo said:


> You are getting unnecessary emotional...



So I take it that your comment has valid reasons behind it. Do elaborate. 

Why can't muslims live with non-muslims?


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## Developereo

Spitfighter said:


> If there's ever going to be a settlement, it will have to account for India's strategic concerns (water especially). The Northern Areas, Azad Kashmir and Aksai Chin will also have to be a part of the settlement.
> 
> India will not and should not make any concessions to Pakistan, nor is it keen on the balkanization of South Asia. IMO, the best we can hope for is a small, jointly administered region carved out of AK, IK and NA.



That sounds like a fair resolution. Unite all parts of Kashmir and make them an independent state. Hopefully, it will not become another proxy battleground like Afghanistan as a potential client-state for India/Pakistan.



Spitfighter said:


> I think a settlement is not in our favor right now, it might be a better idea to wait for another 5 years, the situation in Pakistan and Afghanistan is still evolving, I think down the line India will be able to bargain from a position of considerable strength, and while the settlement might not necessarily be on our terms, we might be able to make it a little more favorable, certainly permanent.



I think that is exactly India's plan and it's a very good one, from India's perspective. Pakistan, as usual, thinks only short term, whereas India is planning a long term strategic resolution.

With the growing economic disparity between India and Pakistan, India will become incresingly attractive to Kashmiris compared to war-torn, economically lagging Pakistan. The only thing in favor of Pakistan is the Muslim bond.

India, for its part, could have won the Kashmiri hearts and minds long ago if it had treated it's Muslim minority better. Despite all the protestations on this board, and the heartfelt assertions of many members in support of Indian Muslims, the fact remains that there is a very strong and powerful Hindu fundamentalist movement within India. A significant portion of Indians view India as a Hindu country, with an unfortunate Islamic period, and hate Indian Muslims.

India is great at international diplomacy, but it has failed domestically with its minorities. Pakistan has made the same mistakes, which is why we lost East Pakistan, and are having trouble in Balochistan.


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## MilesTogo

Spitfighter said:


> So I take it that your comment has valid reasons behind it. Do elaborate.
> 
> Why can't muslims live with non-muslims?



First you changed my statement. I did not say "msulims can not live with non-muslims". I said muslims and non-muslims can not live together. I hope you will appreciate the difference between the two statements.

Second, this statement is based on history and current happenings in the sub-continent. I think you are trying to go away from the ground realities on a wishful journey of future possibilities and perfect world where there are no partitions, no godhras no bomb blasts, no osama bin ladens, no kargils, no wars, no 1971, no mis-interpretaion of religious text, no intolerance and the list goes on. I will save you that trip. Even before you argue that Muslims and Non-muslims can live together, let me agree with you. I agree 100&#37; that it is possible. And I am hopeful too as you are. I wish there will be no further partitions. But at the same time let us not avoid discussion on other possibilities. Based on the fact that there has already been one partition on religious grounds, there is at least slight probability that it might happen again on the same lines. 

Generalizing the above, you are trying to argue that humans can live peacefully, and my point is that humans have not lived peacefully and might not forever.

chill - nice video I found - Enjoy

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## MilesTogo

^ one more

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## Spitfighter

Developereo said:


> *That sounds like a fair resolution. Unite all parts of Kashmir and make them an independent state. Hopefully, it will not become another proxy battleground like Afghanistan as a potential client-state for India/Pakistan.*
> 
> I think that is exactly India's plan and it's a very good one, from India's perspective. Pakistan, as usual, thinks only short term, whereas India is planning a long term strategic resolution.
> 
> With the growing economic disparity between India and Pakistan, India will become incresingly attractive to Kashmiris compared to war-torn, economically lagging Pakistan. The only thing in favor of Pakistan is the Muslim bond.
> 
> India, for its part, could have won the Kashmiri hearts and minds long ago if it had treated it's Muslim minority better. Despite all the protestations on this board, and the heartfelt assertions of many members in support of Indian Muslims, *the fact remains that there is a very strong and powerful Hindu fundamentalist movement within India.* A significant portion of Indians view India as a Hindu country, with an unfortunate Islamic period, and hate Indian Muslims.
> 
> *India is great at international diplomacy, but it has failed domestically with its minorities.* Pakistan has made the same mistakes, which is why we lost East Pakistan, and are having trouble in Balochistan.




I think you've misinterpreted my post, I wasn't very clear though so here goes.

Kashmir will never be united into a single entity, there is simply too much at stake, Pakistan isn't interested in losing any ground in the Northern Areas, and China is a different story altogether, the last thing they're interested in is reconciliation between India and Pakistan, so they just aren't going to play ball. Kashmir also happens to be Pakistan's lifeline, no amount of votes can ever take that away from India. India will hold on to that water come what may, its a strategic imperative. 

What can happen is that both India and Pakistan cede some ground, a small chunk from Azad Kashmir, Indian Kashmir and the Northern Areas, and jointly administer it. Like east and west Germany, only more like east and west Berlin. Both countries would otherwise hold on to most of what they have. People will then be able to choose where they want to live, generally speaking.

The partition has left some deep wounds in the subcontinent, Pakistan's treatment of its own minorities is just as bad if not worse by the way.

India is still a poor and uneducated country, the government, media and the people are doing what they can, people mostly just go about their lives. The ground reality is bad and there is always a tense undercurrent, but is not nearly as bad as you think. Its kind of like America sometime in the early 80's (society), but India does do what it can to stamp out institutional discrimination and the like, changes in society come about slowly, and in India, its at Pandu pace, nice and easy. 

Also, Indians could have easily voted the retarded BJP jokers into office, there was a lot of anger after 26/11, yet the secular party won in a landslide, perceptions aside, facts are facts. We have crazies in India, but hardly anyone buys into their BS anymore, everyone is sick of their divisive tactics, people just want to get along and move on with their lives.

Furthermore, our relationship with Pakistan post partition has only made things worse, which is why I know that peace is imperative for the future of India and for the sub continent as a whole. If in a country like America, different races can live in relative peace and harmony then why can't we live in peace too? 

India is great at international and internal diplomacy, we have so many different types of people, and while India has not completely consolidated its power at home, we've done enough to keep things moving rather briskly. The country has its problems, but I believe we've succeeded where most others have failed. That said, we still have a long way to go. Hopefully things start looking better in a decade or so. 

Regards.


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## manzar

Peshwa said:


> What % of a billion is 200 peeps? Hmm......thats what we call chicken feed....
> 
> Besides I hardly think burning the tri color and chanting anti-India slogans will get them anywhere......3 wars, armed militancy, attacks on civilians and government institutions could not "free" Kashmir.....what makes anyone think this will do the trick?



its only a way to protest to let indians know that they hate them!and they want them to go!they do not want their women and children to be disrespected by the indian milatary.so obviously they are forced to pick up arms!what do you xpect them to do???


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## manzar

asq said:


> all Indians keep mentioning tribesmen as they were aliens who entered kashmir. Stop bring tribesmen, they at the time of Muslim league call decided to join Pakistan even this territory was to go back to Afghanistan after 99years, the Durand line, Since All Pashtuns decided to say in Pakistan at it independence, so they were legally Pakistanis and were fighting for their motherland.
> 
> Now coming to resolutions, read see for yourself what it says and not what you have written down.
> 
> DRAFT 6.2.1948
> 
> 38 (1948)
> 
> 47 (1948)
> 
> there are many more resolution where this came from, it is funny you post your ideas as if they were on U.N.
> 
> Clearly the resolution say that if the force have withdrawn, named tribesmen than Indian must start a process to set up plebiscite plans and procedure and implement with urgency.
> 
> But you Indians read and twist it and read and twist it again again. there are billion Indians and billion interpretations of Kashmir resolutions.
> 
> You guys do not want peace only talk silly and keep killing innocents, raping women



yeah i agree with you..!and every time we try to resolve this problem,they just take the mumbai incident as an excuse.that"no talk on kashmir untill pakistan capture the mumbai culprits and hand them over"so lame...!and when the mumbai incident happen,the whole world was accusing pakistan!wat about the marroit bomb blast in pakistan?!!!?


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## Halaku Khan

Halaku Khan said:


> The separatists have so far remained silent over the matter.



This is the most revealing part of the whole story. The separatists know what kind of mind-set their "movement" depends upon.


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## Awesome

Halaku, what about this? The official word from the people actually investigating the issue:



> Meanwhile, the police have started an investigation. *They say there could also be a non-militancy angle.*


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## Awesome

Kashmir's Brutal and Unpublicized War; Indian Army Accused of Torturing, Terrorizing, Killing Civilians | Article from The Washington Post | HighBeam Research

Article from:The Washington Post Article date:June 7, 1993 Author:Molly Moore; John Ward Anderson

A little blast from the past. Helps into the understanding of how the Kashmiri separatist movement truly took off. It pretty much shows the human rights violations, which include murders, rapes and arson that the Indian Army has been committing since the very beginning in its desperate attempts to clutch onto a people that in no means identify themselves as Indians.



> Masroof Sultan said he was on his way to college chemistry finals when Indian security officers pulled him off a city bus, hauled him to an interrogation camp, accused him of being a terrorist and tortured him with repeated electric shocks.
> 
> The troops then drove the 19-year-old student to a deserted canal bank and leaned him against a tree, where, Sultan recalled, five officers fired at him. Sultan crumpled to the ground, and one of the officers pumped another three bullets into his body. Two hours later, the Indian security forces told police to retrieve the corpse of a militant who had been killed near the canal in the cross-fire of a gun battle.
> 
> The only unusual part of Sultan's story is that he lived to tell it. Doctors said the husky teenager, who lost an estimated 13 pints of blood, survived primarily because none of the bullets punctured vital organs or vessels.
> 
> In recent months, a conflict little noticed in most of the world has begun to escalate in the deceptively bucolic mountain valley of Kashmir, where residents say Indian army and security forces are waging a brutal campaign of torture, terror and killings against militants fighting for independence. While militants also are accused of murders, rapes and other atrocities, residents say Indian troops are far more brutal.
> 
> The struggle is choking everyday life in Kashmir, where many more civilians are dying than either military forces or rebels. According to records maintained by local journalists, lawyers and doctors, between *12,000 and 20,000 people have been killed in slightly more than three years of violence.*
> 
> "We are living in fear and terror," said Amina Nazir, a shopkeeper's wife. Her tidy second-floor apartment overlooks the charred debris of Srinagar's main shopping area, Lal Chowk, where government forces burned more than 200 houses and shops last month in retaliation for a guerrilla attack on an empty military building.
> 
> "There is no justice, no law and order," Sultan said in a bedside interview at the Bone and Joint Hospital, where he has undergone four operations for the injuries he received April 8. *"A security person can do what they want to catch any person. I am not a militant. I just wanted to do my studies."*
> 
> Indian officals interviewed in New Delhi insisted that Sultan was a militant who was caught in the cross-fire of a gun battle between guerrillas and security forces.
> 
> The battle over Muslim-dominated Kashmir has led to two of the three wars fought between Pakistan and India, both of which lay claim to the jagged snowy peaks and lush green valleys where generations of British colonialists escaped the New Delhi heat aboard wooden houseboats floating serenely on Lake Dal.
> 
> U.S. military officials view Kashmir and the tensions it has created between the neighboring countries as one of the world's most likely flash points for nuclear war. A growing number of political observers in the region believe the 46-year-old struggle can only be resolved with pressure from the United States or the United Nations.
> 
> The United States recently has entered the debate by warning Pakistan that it risks being named a terrorist state if it continues arming, training and financing the guerrillas in Kashmir. U.S.officials also have raised concerns with India over alleged human rights abuses by its military forces.
> 
> In addition to its political standoff with Pakistan, India finds itself in a struggle with its own people. Kashmir was granted an unusual status during the partition of Pakistan and India in 1947, *and it has remained a disputed territory ever since*. In the *last four decades, the sentiment of the residents has fluctuated among apathy, a desire to become part of Pakistan and support for independence from both countries.*
> 
> Violence erupted in late 1989 when militant Kashmiris, frustrated by years of political stalemate, drew strength from the withdrawal of Soviet troops from Afghanistan under pressure from guerrilla forces. Aided by arms and other support from Pakistan, the militant Kashmiris launched their own war for freedom.
> 
> Residents of the far northern Indian state are so opposed to New Delhi that the conflict has become to India what Vietnam was to the United States and Afghanistan to the Soviet Union: a debilitating war costing millions of dollars and thousands of lives with no coherent political policy to control it and little chance of victory.
> 
> "It's an absurd figure we're spending for no reason whatsoever," Salman Khurshid, India's minister of state for external affairs, said in describing the budget drain of deploying a minimum of 300,000 troops along the Indian-Pakistani border and throughout the valley.
> 
> For the almost 8 million residents of the Kashmir region, the effects of the violence have been devastating: Life in a valley that centuries of writers and poets have described as paradise on Earth has become a nightmare. Parents say they live in terror that their children will be killed in gun battles on the way home from school. Social life has dried up, with citizens afraid to venture out of their houses after dusk. Most governmental institutions have ceased to function, and the tourist-driven economy has collapsed.
> 
> Security forces daily cordon off large sections of the city, pulling hundreds of residents out of their homes in search of militants and weapons. Each day, young men suspected of being militants are nabbed by Indian security and military forces in what residents have dubbed "catch-and-kill" operations.
> 
> There are no reliable figures on the number of people who have been killed as a result of the violence, but most estimates - including those by the U.S. State Department - suggest that civilians suffer the greatest number of casualties. For instance, in February, March and April of this year, the Kashmir Times newspaper reported, the death toll from the violence was 371 civilians, 291 militants and 42 soldiers.
> 
> Human rights organizations have issued scathing reports on the conflict. "*The security forces have been given free rein to murder detainees in custody, kill civilians in reprisal attacks and engage in torture, rape and arson - all with impunity,*" said Patricia Gossman, who has written recent reports for the New York-based human rights group Asia Watch.
> 
> In an interview with the national news magazine India Today, Jammu and Kashmir Gov. K.V. Krishna Rao replied to a question about deaths in custody and human rights violations: "I genuinely feel bad if torture leads to death."
> 
> Khurshid said there are extenuating circumstances: "I'm not justifying for a minute what any officer has done in any part of Kashmir, but one has to understand the stress in which they are working. We're not fighting kids throwing stones - we're fighting trained militants."
> 
> With more than 30 different militant groups vying for power and control of territory, the guerrillas are accused of executions, rapes and extortion, particularly against Hindu minorities living in the valley.
> 
> "People are fed up with both sides," said a Srinagar businessman who asked that he not be identified for fear of retribution from one side or the other. "We are sandwiched between the two and dare not speak out about either side."
> 
> The cities and countryside of Kashmir look like war zones. The streets are dotted with sandbagged command posts draped in rope netting to protect security troops from the grenades that militants routinely lob at them. Indian security forces, uncertain who is friend or foe, keep their fingers on their gun triggers.
> 
> Doctors, human rights workers and others who document abuses by both government forces and militants have become targets. Since last December, *three of the valley's most prominent critics of human rights violations - particularly those involving atrocities by government forces - have been shot dead*. There is no conclusive evidence of who killed the men, although Farooq Ahmed Ashai, the chief orthopedic surgeon of the Bone and Joint Hospital, was shot while driving his car past a military bunker.
> 
> "I feel very insecure," said Mufti Bahauddin Aftab, a former chief justice and human rights activist who said the *killings of his colleagues prompted him to curtail his own investigations. "I hesitate to go out of my house now. Everybody feels scared. There's no accountability. Where there is no accountability, it is a free- for-all by uniformed people."*
> 
> Javed Mohammed Mir, acting president of the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front, one of the largest militant organizations here, acknowledged that some atrocities have been committed by militants and said that *a "coordination committee" of six militant organizations has considered the evidence and executed about a half- dozen of their "antisocial" members.*
> 
> Throughout the Kashmir valley, government services have become almost nonexistent, but most alarming, according to some human rights activists and attorneys, is the collapse of the criminal justice system. *From police on the street to justices on the state Supreme Court, the legal system has been abused, compromised and corrupted to terrorize and unjustly imprison innocent victims, they said.*
> 
> The violence has devastated the local economy, which was almost entirely dependent on a world-renowned tourist industry. In 1988 - the biggest boom year for tourism - 722,000 people visited the region's serene lakes, majestic mountains and poplar-dotted valleys, infusing $200 million into the local economy and government coffers. Last year, only 10,400 hardy tourists visited the area.
> 
> Businessmen and craftsmen say some of their trades may become impossible to pursue if the upheavals continue. The Victorian houseboats that line the shores of the lakes near Srinagar have been a major tourist draw for more than a century, ever since laws prohibiting British citizens from owning land in Kashmir prompted them to improvise and build palatial floating retreats on the water.
> 
> All but a handful of the region's hotels have been commandeered by Indian soldiers, who have lined the windows with sandbags and allowed magnificent gardens to be overrun by weeds.
> 
> Kashmir's top religious leader, Mir Waiz Farooq, 19, who inherited the mantle at an unusually young age after his father was shot and killed three years ago, said he believes India, Pakistan and the rebels are incapable of negotiating a solution. "We appeal to the United States to intervene as they did in the {Persian} Gulf War and in Afghanistan," he said.

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## Awesome

Article: The Valley of the shadow.(struggle for Kashmir) | Article from The Economist (US) | HighBeam Research



> *The Valley of the shadow.(struggle for Kashmir)*
> 
> Article from:The Economist (US) Article date:May 22, 1999
> 
> A STRETCH of the main road from Srinagar, Jammu & Kashmir's summer capital, to Anantnag is lined with workshops that fashion the local willow into cricket bats. There is something cheering about these little enterprises making a living from South Asia's favourite pastime in the region's most contested territory.
> 
> The cheer quickly dissipates. Gulam Qadir (not his real name) says he shifted his stock from road level to the first floor of his shop because counter-insurgents, former anti-Indian militants who have changed sides, have been harassing him. Sometimes they just demand free bats; when angry, they ``take up these sticks and beat us,'' Mr Qadir claims, gesturing towards the stacks of unfinished planks. He wants what almost everyone in the Kashmir Valley seems to want, azadi-- independence. But like most businessmen, Mr Qadir has a pragmatic streak. ``Before azadi, we want a relaxed atmosphere,'' he says, ``which is not happening.''
> 
> Mr Qadir and his fellow Kashmiris are caught up in one of the world's most intractable disputes. There is a legal side to it, there is a fiendishly complex issue of self-determination, there is a regional tussle that involves China as well as India and Pakistan, and then there are the realities on the ground, kept rigid by the power of the gun. These forces pull in different directions. But India is happier with the status quo than are the other main players, Pakistan and the Kashmiri people, and it is with India that a solution must start.
> 
> The Kashmir problem is part of the aftermath of partition. The Hindu maharaja of Kashmir wanted independence, but hurriedly acceded to India in 1948 after Pakistani tribesmen invaded his realm. The principle that Kashmiris be allowed to determine their own future was established at the beginning. India's first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, struck a deal with the maharaja, but thought that his (mostly Muslim) subjects should be the the true masters of Kashmir. A 1948 UN Security Council resolution, designed to end the first hostilities between India and Pakistan, calls for the withdrawal of Pakistani forces, followed by a plebiscite allowing Kashmiris to choose between joining India or Pakistan. It never happened. The state remains divided into zones of Indian, Pakistani and--because the Pakistanis let them have it and China occupied a chunk on its own--Chinese control. Pakistan regards union with the rest of Kashmir as ``the unfinished business of partition''. India, for its part, deems the state an integral part of its territory. China says it will talk about its slice once the other two have reached a deal.
> 
> Missed opportunities
> 
> India might have won a plebiscite had it not governed Kashmir so badly. Nehru had an ally in Kashmir's most popular leader, Sheikh Muhammad Abdullah, who thought of himself as a Kashmiri first and a Muslim second, and preferred Indian secularism to Pakistani sectarianism. It was a rocky relationship. Abdullah flirted with independence, and the central government never reconciled itself to the autonomy it had granted Kashmir. India's best friend in the state was imprisoned twice for a total of 18 years between 1953 and 1975. He won Kashmir's first genuinely free election in 1977. Yet in 1984 his son, Farooq, was dismissed as chief minister by Nehru's daughter, Indira Gandhi. There followed a period of obtuse and thuggish rule by the central government, a flawed election in 1987 that gave a more obedient Farooq another spell in power, and the outbreak of violence two years later.
> 
> It has been an ugly war that does none of the parties involved much credit. The 400,000 or so troops that India keeps in Kashmir have often shown the same brutality as their foes. So far, about 24,000 people have died in the decade-long insurgency, say the police. The militants say 60,000. Either way, more have been killed than in all three Indo- Pakistani wars put together.
> 
> Pakistan insists on sorting out the mess by holding the plebiscite as envisaged in the UN resolutions. That would bring more self- determination than at present, but not much. Jammu & Kashmir's population of 9m-10m is far from being all Muslim (see map). The Kashmir Valley has become almost all Muslim. Jammu has a Hindu majority and Ladakh a Buddhist one. It is a safe bet that in a plebiscite both would vote to remain with India but be dragged into union with Pakistan by the overall Muslim majority. In that event the Kashmir problem might well go on, with oppressor and oppressed swapping identities.
> 
> More important, the UN-mandated plebiscite does not offer Kashmiris what most of them really want: azadi. A 1995 poll found that 72&#37; of the Valley's inhabitants wanted independence. Being mostly Muslims does not make them Pakistanis. Their separate identity is based on place, kinship and culture as much as on religion.
> 
> In India's view, Kashmiris would become loyal citizens again if only Pakistan would stop interfering. It sees the insurgency as a proxy war, which would end as soon as Pakistan stopped giving militants money and weapons and letting them infiltrate Kashmir across the line of control. Most militants, India claims, are foreign zealots imported from other holy wars, such as that in Afghanistan. It regards separatist political groups, two dozen of which are grouped under the All Parties Hurriyet Conference, as stooges of Pakistan
> 
> Pending a diplomatic solution, India thinks the war is going well. ``We are happy,'' says C.S Pokharia, deputy inspector-general of the Border Security Force, which keeps order in Kashmir. Fewer militants are infiltrating from Pakistan, and ``the killing of militants during encounters is quite favourable.''
> 
> Mr Pokharia has some grounds for smugness. After a period when militants ruled the roost in big towns like Srinagar and even ran a parallel administration, the government now has the upper hand. Militants have been pushed out of the towns and the bazaars bustle again, though there are still sporadic shoot-outs even in the middle of Srinagar. The security forces are trying harder to target combatants and spare civilians. Elections in 1996, which were boycotted by the separatists, replaced direct rule from Delhi with a government headed by Farooq Abdullah.
> 
> Normality is relative. Srinagar still looks like a city dumped inside a maximum-security prison, with guns poking through piles of sandbags on nearly every corner. Tourism, Kashmir's biggest industry, is still way below its pre-insurrection peak. Without the money spent by soldiers and their families, the economy would be flat on its back. And the war is far from over. The militants lie lower but strike harder, sometimes at the security forces, sometimes at innocents who happen to be Hindus. Casualties among security forces last year just fell short of the 1995 record.
> 
> The security forces have become choosier, but no less brutal. Ravi Nair, head of the South Asian Human Rights Documentation Centre, says that captured foreign militants are summarily executed in faked ``encounters''. Detainees are routinely tortured. Kashmir is still subject to laws that permit security forces to shoot suspects and destroy property. And when they abuse their powers, there is no redress. Parveena Ahanger speaks for the parents of 300 missing children, including her son, who disappeared in 1991 after the National Security Guard arrested him: ``Not one person has been found, not one person has been punished.''
> 
> Why peace is hard to do
> 
> Competing claims of sovereignty and self-determination can never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Even modest ambitions, such as a lessening of violence, have been frustrated because every concession has been looked upon as a surrender of principle. It is unlikely that the Indian and Pakistani prime ministers bent their principles in Lahore. Compromises offered by either country always fall short of the other side's minimum demands. Thus India might accept the line of control as the permanent border, and Pakistan is willing to talk about holding a plebiscite in Kashmir by region rather than for the whole state, which would allow the parts populated by Hindus and Buddhists to vote to remain with India. But the crunch issue for both countries remains the disposition of the Muslim-dominated Kashmir Valley.
> 
> Mr Sharif is as close to being soft on Kashmir as any Pakistani leader is likely to get. Looking over his shoulder are Islamic fundamentalists, who have already branded his meeting with Mr Vajpayee a betrayal of Kashmir; the armed forces, whose budgets depend on continued tension with India; and Inter-Services Intelligence, the part of the armed forces thought to be arming and training fighters both in Afghanistan and Kashmir.
> 
> In India, there are two distinct schools of thought on Kashmir. The weightier one, to which Mr Vajpayee and probably his electoral rival, Sonia Gandhi, belong, argues that there can be no compromise over the sovereignty of Indian-held Kashmir. But there are others who see merit in giving Pakistan some say in the affairs of the Valley--though such creative solutions are unlikely to be tried for years to come.
> 
> There need not be a grand settlement for things to improve in Kashmir, but two things will have to happen: Pakistan will have to squeeze the supply of violence and India will have to discourage the demand for it. If violence inside Kashmir goes down, India could reduce its security forces in the interior.
> 
> Will Pakistan rein in the rebels? It denies giving them anything other than moral and diplomatic support, and claims to have limited power to curb them. It probably exaggerates its impotence. It has a large army along the line of control, which it uses selectively. The mujahideen of Lashkar-e-Taiba, one of the main guerrilla groups, mill about their office in Lahore impressively armed in full view of the police. Mr Sharif is under intense pressure from the United States--which controls the flow of money to Pakistan's bankrupt economy--to reduce tensions with India. But he is also on the hit-list of one of the extremist Islamic groups, and may be reluctant to provoke such groups further. India's behaviour towards its Kashmiri citizens should not depend on the number of terrorists infiltrating across the border. Farooq Abdullah's National Conference government in Kashmir, which had a flimsy mandate to begin with, has lost whatever popularity it had because of its clumsy administration and its failure to fulfill its promise to win back some of Kashmir's autonomy. Moreover, Kashmiris feel they are being ruled not by a popularly elected government but by policemen who behave more like an occupation force. Secessionist leaders, who represent an important slice of public opinion, play hardly any part in politics. The All Parties Hurriyet Conference is not an impressive body. Its two dozen members agree on little except opposition to Indian rule. Its leaders, fearing harassment by Indian forces, have little contact with the people they claim to represent.
> 
> Mehbooba Mufti, a member of the state assembly from the Congress party, thinks the government should open an ``unconditional dialogue'' with militant groups and their political representatives. So far the separatists have held out for tripartite talks with India and Pakistan- -``the only kind we will accept,'' says Yaseen Malik, leader of the pro-independence Jammu & Kashmir Liberation Front. But Ms Mufti reckons that even hardened separatists would agree to talk to the government on its own. ``Militant boys want a normal life--with honour, not with surrender,'' says Ms Mufti. She may be wrong. But if India is to prevail over the separatists, it will have to persuade rather than simply punish them.

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## MilesTogo

I think time is right to free Kashmiris and not just Kashmiris but all the Muslims in India. Indians should seriously start thinking about a second partition and free all muslims.


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## Awesome

MilesTogo said:


> I think time is right to free Kashmiris and not just Kashmiris but all the Muslims in India. Indians should seriously start thinking about a second partition and free all muslims.


Is that a subtle hint that you'd free Kashmiris and not Kashmir?

I have to ask since some Indians have suggested this ridiculous notion that Indians will keep Kashmir kicking out the Kashmiris

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## Awesome

With all the human rights violation baggage the India has accumulated in their relationship with Kashmir, a Kashmiri independence is the only option. They'll never really become Indians.

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## Awesome

Indian HR activists condemn shielding of Shopian culprits | Kashmir Media Service

The world is asleep. They have no conscience. Such incidents now running well into the thousands are ignored by the world over. They want to liberate Iraq, Afghanistan... And want to reward the criminals of Kashmir.



> *Indian HR activists condemn shielding of Shopian culprits*
> 
> Srinagar, August 28 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, a six member Delhi-based team of lawyers, human rights activists, journalists and doctors has said that rape and murder incident of Aasiya Jan and Neelofar Jan in Shopian has shaken them.The fact-finding team comprising Uma Chakarwarti, Usha Ramarathan, Varindra Grover, Heema Mishra, Dr Achita and Anuradha Bhasin visited and sympathised with the bereaved family of the victims.
> 
> Concerned over the delayed justice to the family, a member of the team said, &#8220;Attempts that were made by authorities to shield the culprits are condemnable. We are collecting facts into the incident, as we want to do our bit to help the family get justice. The facts we have collected so far clearly indicate that there is a hand of uniformed men into the incident. This incident has shaken us."
> 
> In order to collect facts about the incident, the team met the Bar Association of Shopian, Majlis-i-Mashawrat and two key witnesses. The team besides visiting the crime spot enquired in detail about the incident and the events that followed it.
> 
> A member of the Majlis who led the 46-day-long agitation for justice to the family of victims said, "The team is on a fact-finding mission into the incident and will brief the media on Saturday in Srinagar." He said that the team members expressed dissatisfaction over the investigations conducted by the authorities-sponsored Muzaffar Jan commission and Special Investigation Team of police.


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## Halaku Khan

Asim Aquil said:


> Halaku, what about this? The official word from the people actually investigating the issue:



In this case the men who abducted the principal were armed. So it does suggest a militant connection.

But it is true that separatists are not always militants. Take Geelani, for example. But they do represent the most talibanized elements of society. That is why they have not condemned the beating up of the college principal. They are certainly very active in rabble-rousing whenever they think they can embarrass the police or security forces. But they don't dare to contest the elections, for fear of having their hollowness exposed.

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## MilesTogo

Asim Aquil said:


> Is that a subtle hint that you'd free Kashmiris and not Kashmir?
> 
> I have to ask since some Indians have suggested this ridiculous notion that Indians will keep Kashmir kicking out the Kashmiris



Read carefully - I said "partition".


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## hembo

*Autonomy to Gilgit-Baltistan is a joke: Pakistani Kashmiri leader *
Tue, Sep 1 10:22 AM

Srinagar, Sep 1 (IANS) Islamabad's move to give 'greater political autonomy' to the Northern Areas by renaming the region Gilgit-Baltistan and giving it the powers of a federal province is 'nothing but a little joke', says a separatist leader in Pakistan- administered Jammu and Kashmir.

On Saturday, the Pakistan cabinet approved the Gilgit-Baltistan Empowerment and Self Governance Order, 2009, that empowers the local assembly to elect its chief minister; the Pakistan president will appoint a governor for the region adjoining Jammu and Kashmir that was earlier under the direct control of Islamabad.

Like other provinces, the assembly will, however, have no control over defence and treasury.

'We outrightly reject this so called governance order 2009 for Gilgit Baltistan. It is nothing but a little joke to the people of this region and the state of Jammu (and) Kashmir,' Jammu and Kashmir National Awami Party (JKNAP) president Liaqat Hayyat told IANS in an email interview.

The JKNAP is a separatist political outfit based in Muzaffarabad, the capital of Pakistan-administered Kashmir or 'Azad' Jammu and Kashmir, the other part of Kashmir that is under Islamabad's control.

'After 63 years of deprivation of basic human rights, Pakistan's decision to change the name of the local administration and creation of the authority of chief minister and governor indicates that this region would be a province of the country,' Hayyat said.

The Shia Muslim-dominated region, seen as part of its Jammu and Kashmir state by India, has seen a separatist movement gaining momentum over the past few years.

Alarmingly low literacy levels, the absence of industry, deplorable road and communication links, the lack of energy sources, and the lack of job opportunities have fuelled the resentment and rebellion amongst the people in the region -- which was part of Jammu and Kashmir before Pakistan militarily occupied some parts of the erstwhile princely state in 1948.

Islamabad's move to grant it autonomy to address the simmering discontent has serious implications for the 'disputed' territoriality of Jammu and Kashmir.

'It is a totally unconstitutional decision. Pakistan has absolutely no authority over the region to decide the fate of the two million people of disputed Jammu and Kashmir. It is a violation of the UN resolution which has only mandated temporary administrative authority over this region till the Kashmir dispute is resolved between India and Pakistan,' said Hayat.

He said Pakistan was making 'an attempt to strengthen (its) occupation over the region and it is not acceptable to any one in the region or any patriotic Kashmiri'.

'This expansionist policy of the Pakistani state must be resisted,' he said.

'This region has not been part of Pakistani state; nor have people of this region ever decided to join Pakistan.

'Pakistani rulers are behaving like colonial powers in the region and imposing their own institutions against the popular will of the people of this unfortunate region. It is condemnable and shameful... The JKNAP will continue its struggle and resist occupation of Kashmir,' he added.

The JKNAP has called for protest Tuesday all over Pakistan-administered Kashmir cities and towns.

Also known as the Karakoram region, Gilgit-Baltistan spreads from Shinaki Kohistan to Chitral (in Pakistan) up to Tashkurgan (under Chinese occupation) and from Ladakh to Kargil in India.

When British rule came to an end in 1947, the region was conquered by Pakistan in 1948 tribal raids. Pakistan later 'gifted' a part of the territory towards the extreme north to China.

Stringent laws make the region inaccessible to foreigners and there are few media reports from the region.

(Sarwar Kashani can be contacted at s.kashani@ians.in)

Sarwar Kashani

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## Spitfighter

This needs to be publicized throughout the country especially in J&K. These guys need to exposed for the ignorant bastards that they are. We need to catch these self righteous 'people' and make them sorry they were born. This moral policing nonsense should have no place in our country.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Spitfighter said:


> This moral policing nonsense should have no place in our country.


The morality argument has been long gone in the context of India's occupation of Kashmir - ever since the Indian leadership chose to unilaterally integrate Kashmir into India and deny the Kashmiris the right to self determination, as expressed in the UNSC resolutions and committed to by India and her leadership.

Anyway, back to topic.


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## humblehobbes

^^^ Excuse me! Every time you talk about Kashmir, you bring in UNSC Resolutions. I see no talk about UNSC preconditions for Plebiscite!!!! Care to comment on it ?


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## afriend

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The morality argument has been long gone in the context of India's occupation of Kashmir - ever since the Indian leadership chose to unilaterally integrate Kashmir into India and deny the Kashmiris the right to self determination, as expressed in the UNSC resolutions and committed to by India and her leadership.
> 
> Anyway, back to topic.



If some people think that india is morally wrong in condemning any extrimsim and taking action against any wrong thing thats happening in our country, i would say they too will not be in a position to preach. So lets focus on the subject topic here.


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## Spitfighter

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The morality argument has been long gone in the context of India's occupation of Kashmir - ever since the Indian leadership chose to unilaterally integrate Kashmir into India and deny the Kashmiris the right to self determination, as expressed in the UNSC resolutions and committed to by India and her leadership.
> 
> Anyway, back to topic.



Well, if Pakistan could have controlled the 'non state actors' from the tribal regions back in '47 we wouldn't have come to this and if we did, then India would clearly be the aggressor. 

Pakistan has violated several treaties itself, so lets get off the high horse shall we. 

Also, if tomorrow, as was the case with the nuclear deal, India is 'allowed' to have nuclear weapons and Pakistan isn't, since you guys are all about following the law in Pakistan, would you give up your nukes?

I believe that we should settle the issue, I don't want to get into it on this thread. Kindly refer to my comment here: 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...i-honest-indian-perspective-9.html#post464118

and here 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...i-honest-indian-perspective-9.html#post464315 


anyways, this is a law enforcement issue. These people have no right to go around telling what other people to do. They can't decide if girls should wear hijabs or not, that's up to the girls themselves. This crap won't fly in India. Some jokers tried to ban jeans earlier, they were put in their place rather quickly.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

humblehobbes said:


> ^^^ Excuse me! Every time you talk about Kashmir, you bring in UNSC Resolutions. I see no talk about UNSC preconditions for Plebiscite!!!! Care to comment on it ?



Already commented upon in the UNSC resolutions sticky - read that.


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## IndiaNews98

Sad. These fundamentalist should be chased away from Kashmir.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

afriend said:


> If some people think that india is morally wrong in condemning any extrimsim and taking action against any wrong thing thats happening in our country, i would say they too will not be in a position to preach. So lets focus on the subject topic here.


 What does any of that have to do with my point?

I am merely pointing out that spitfighters argument about 'not being restrained by moral policing' doesn't really matter since the entire Indian position on Kashmir, in denying the right of self-determination, is immoral.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Spitfighter said:


> Well, if Pakistan could have controlled the 'non state actors' from the tribal regions back in '47 we wouldn't have come to this and if we did, then India would clearly be the aggressor.


The UNSC resolutions calling for a plebsicite and calling J&K disputed, agreed to by India, Pakistan and the majority of the global community, occurred in the aftermath of the war in 1947-48.



> Pakistan has violated several treaties itself, so lets get off the high horse shall we.


Ahh, but the issue I raised was about the immorality of the Indian position in J&K given that you were arguing in favor of India not being tied down by morality, not just any treaty.




> Also, if tomorrow, as was the case with the nuclear deal, India is 'allowed' to have nuclear weapons and Pakistan isn't, since you guys are all about following the law in Pakistan, would you give up your nukes?


That is a rather hypothetical question with a lot of if ands or but's - I find it hard to believe that any Pakistani government will accept civilian nuclear technology and completely remove its nuclear weapons capability (see Pakistan's concerns at the Conference on Disarmament - ArmsControlWonk: Pakistan Blocks Consensus in CD).



> I believe that we should settle the issue, I don't want to get into it on this thread. Kindly refer to my comment here:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...i-honest-indian-perspective-9.html#post464118
> 
> and here
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...i-honest-indian-perspective-9.html#post464315


I'll check out the comments - thanks for linking to them.



> anyways, this is a law enforcement issue. These people have no right to go around telling what other people to do. They can't decide if girls should wear hijabs or not, that's up to the girls themselves. This crap won't fly in India. Some jokers tried to ban jeans earlier, they were put in their place rather quickly.


I agree completely - my post was only in response to the argument that the India forces in J&K should adopt 'immoral policing'.


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## afriend

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> What does any of that have to do with my point?
> 
> I am merely pointing out that spitfighters argument about 'not being restrained by moral policing' doesn't really matter since the entire Indian position on Kashmir, in denying the right of self-determination, is immoral.



How does it not matter, both are different issues, and if you connect one with another, then whole things that pakistan and india did would be comming into this thread, pakistan's support of jihadists and brutality in bangladesh..etc all those can be talked about, so lets keep this thread free from that.

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## Spitfighter

And we're the ones being lectured on abiding the UNSC resolutions. Why not show us how its done and practice what you preach? Maybe that will lend some credibility to your claims. 

How can one harp about the 'Indian occupation' while the GoP is busy distributing parts of Kashmir to China? 

I think Pakistan has made its stand clear now. It will be interesting to see how the 'freedom fighters' they've nurtured for so long react to this move.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Spitfighter said:


> And we're the ones being lectured on abiding the UNSC resolutions. Why not show us how its done and practice what you preach? Maybe that will lend some credibility to your claims.



Its not being integrated into the country as a "fifth State or Province", as the Indians have done, now is it?

The autonomy package for G-B is akin to the Azad Kashmir autonomy.

So please do learn how its done.

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## Patriot

Yes, we will be worried when common Kashmiris protest in Azad Kashmir like they do in Jammu and Kashmir..Politicans well what can you say about them.

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## Spitfighter

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Its not being integrated into the country as a "fifth State or Province", as the Indians have done, now is it?
> 
> The autonomy package for G-B is akin to the Azad Kashmir autonomy.
> 
> So please do learn how its done.




And what about the parts that Pakistan has 'gifted' to China?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Spitfighter said:


> And what about the parts that Pakistan has 'gifted' to China?



The region was barren and unpopulated when the agreement with China on the Trans-Karakoram Tract was inked, and the agreement indicates that final resolution of the territory is dependent upon the resolution of the Kashmir dispute:



> *Article 6* The two parties have agreed that after the settlement of the Kashmir dispute between Pakistan and India, the sovereign authority concerned will reopen negotiations with the Government of the People's Republic of China on the boundary as described in Article. Two of the present agreement,

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## IndiaNews98

It is clear that the Pakistani part of Kashmir is much worse off than the Indian one. The only difference is that they don't have to handle the Pakistan-sponsored insurgency that has made life hell on the Indian side.

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## Omar1984

IndiaNews98 said:


> It is clear that the Pakistani part of Kashmir is much worse off than the Indian one. The only difference is that they don't have to handle the Pakistan-sponsored insurgency that has made life hell on the Indian side.



And when did you visit Pakistan's Azad Kashmir?

When did you hear of troops firing at defenseless people in Pakistan's Azad Kashmir, and we know how common protests against Indian rule is in Indian Occupied Kashmir and how Indian troops fire at defenseless Kashmiris.

Ever since Azad Kashmir (including Gilgit-Baltstan) became part of Pakistan there has never been one single protest by the people of the region against being part of Pakistan. 

Also we dont see thousands of troops all over Pakistan's Azad Kashmir unlike in Indian Occupied Kashmir where there as much indian troops as there are Kashmiri civilians.

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## humblehobbes

Dint the preconditions ask for the Pakistani Army to vacate Kashmir? OR am i missing something here? This was never heeded by Pakistan! Then why is there a question of the resolutions when the preconditions were not met!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

humblehobbes said:


> Dint the preconditions ask for the Pakistani Army to vacate Kashmir? OR am i missing something here? This was never heeded by Pakistan! Then why is there a question of the resolutions when the preconditions were not met!



Again, that has been answered in the UNSC resolutions sticky, which you really should read if you are intent on pursuing this line of argument and respond there.


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## IndiaNews98

Of course there have been protests in Pakistani Kashmir - plenty of protests, rallies etc. etc. But once they experienced the heavy hand of Pakistani Army, they all fizzled out because there was no outside force to sustain it. 

In India's case, we have an entire state of 160 million whose propoganda machinery works non-stop to create hatred and resentment for Indians in Kashmir, and huge amounts of cash, weapons, propoganda material that flows in.

That is why, Pakistani Kashmir, inspite of being worse off in almost every human indicator, remains relatively, far more peaceful.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

IndiaNews98 said:


> Of course there have been protests in Pakistani Kashmir - plenty of protests, rallies etc. etc. But once they experienced the heavy hand of Pakistani Army, they all fizzled out because there was no outside force to sustain it.
> 
> In India's case, we have an entire state of 160 million whose propoganda machinery works non-stop to create hatred and resentment for Indians in Kashmir, and huge amounts of cash, weapons, propoganda material that flows in.
> 
> That is why, Pakistani Kashmir, inspite of being worse off in almost every human indicator, remains relatively, far more peaceful.


 We all saw and read about the massive protests in IOK against Indian occupation - any sources to back up any of the above, about massive protests against 'Pakistani occupation and Military suppression', and all the rest or is it just your opinion?

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## IndiaNews98

There have been several protests over the years. Admittedly, the were nowhere as massive as the anti-Indian ones, thanks to complete control over media and speech in the Pakistani-Kashmir, and the absence of any foreign country stoking the flames. 

However, here are the news reports of interest: 

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Asia Times

End reign of terror, deprivation in Gilgit, Baltistan: EU-Kashmir Alliance

Additionally, here's an excerpt from the UNHCR report on that region
UNHCR | Refworld | Freedom in the World 2008 - Kashmir [Pakistan]

Here are some excerpts worth reading:

_While the Pakistani authorities have readily provided support to armed militants fighting in India, they have been less tolerant of groups that espouse Kashmiri self-determination, including primarily the All Parties National Alliance (APNA), a conglomerate of 12 small proindependence Kashmiri groups. Nationalist and proindependence groups in Pakistani-administered Kashmir, including the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF), the Gilgit-Baltistan United Movement, and others, continued in 2007 to agitate for increased political representation. In October 2007, Musharraf proposed a number of reforms to the governance structure for the Northern Areas, but most groups rejected them as insufficient, saying they lacked a solid constitutional foundation and guarantees of judicial independence. By year's end, the imposition of a state of emergency in Pakistan on November 3, which led to widespread restrictions on political rights as well as the postponement of planned legislative elections, had led to a worsening of political freedom in Azad Kashmir, while Musharraf's planned reforms for the Northern Areas were put off indefinitely.

The appropriation of land in the Northern Areas by non-Kashmiri migrants from elsewhere in Pakistan, with the tacit encouragement of the federal government and army, has led to dwindling economic opportunities for the local population and an increase in sectarian tension between the majority Shia Muslims and a growing number of Sunnis. Ethnic violence first erupted in 1988, with riots in Gilgit that killed at least 150 people, and it continues to be a concern.

As detailed by Human Rights Watch (HRW) in a 2006 report on the region, individuals and political parties who do not support Kashmir's accession to Pakistan are barred from participating in the political process, standing for election, taking a job with any government institution, or accessing educational institutions. At least 60 proindependence candidates who belonged to the JKLF, the APNA, and smaller political parties were barred from participating in the July 2006 Azad Kashmir legislative assembly elections. Overall, HRW noted that the election process was flawed and "greeted with widespread charges of poll rigging by opposition political parties and independent analysts."

The Pakistani government uses the constitution and other laws to curb freedom of speech on a variety of subjects, including the status of Kashmir and incidents of sectarian violence. In recent years, authorities have banned several local newspapers from publishing and have detained or otherwise harassed Kashmiri journalists. In March 2007, the government suspended its advertisements in publications by the Dawn English-language media group after it reported on a possible resurgence of official support for militants in Kashmir. In April 2007, Dawn reported that the editor and publisher of the banned monthly Kargil International magazine were indicted on sedition and defamation charges for publishing a proindependence article in 2004.

According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP), Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) operates throughout Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas and engages in extensive surveillance (particularly of proindependence groups and the press), as well as arbitrary arrests and detentions. In some instances, those detained by the ISI, the police, or the security forces are tortured, and several cases of death in custody have been reported._


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## Omar1984

*India protests Pakistan plan for "occupied" Kashmir areas *


New Delhi, Aug 31 : India has taken serious note of the Pakistan government approving a self-governance package for the Northern Areas, renaming it as 'Gilgit-Baltistan', which is part of the Pak-occupied-Kashmir.

The areas named by Pakistan on August 30 are part of Jammu and Kashmir which is an integral part of India,  a senior official of the Ministry of External Affairs said. 

The 'Gilgit-Baltistan Empowerment and Self Governance Order 2009', announced by Pakistan Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani at a news conference, is also aimed at giving the Northern Areas ''full internal autonomy'', so that it would have rights akin to those of Pakistan's four provinces.

The development was very serious and was unacceptable to India, the official said. 

Paksitan Federal minister Farooq Sattar had told reporters in Islamabad that the Northern Areas would go to polls in the next three months to elect a government like the one in Azad Kashmir. He said a cabinet committee will be constituted to ''remove hurdles for merging Gilgit-Baltistan into Pakistan.'' The Gilgit-Baltistan area is strategically located. In the west, it borders the North West Frontier Province, in the north, it borders Afghanistan and in the east it borders with Jammu and Kashmir. 

--UNI



In the east, Gilgit-Baltistan borders China, in the south it borders Jammu and Kashmir.







And yes its very strategically located so try to take it from us if you can india

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## Elmo

*Like other provinces, the assembly will, however, have no control over defence and treasury.*

What's wrong with that? Dfence should be federal rather than provincial.


*The Shia Muslim-dominated region, seen as part of its Jammu and Kashmir state by India, has seen a separatist movement gaining momentum over the past few years.*

Last one checked, Baltistan has a significant ismaili population which is well-known for its peaceful outlook. And who is leading this seaparatist movement there if one may dare to ask. 


*Alarmingly low literacy levels, the absence of industry, deplorable road and communication links, the lack of energy sources, and the lack of job opportunities have fuelled the resentment and rebellion amongst the people in the region -- which was part of Jammu and Kashmir before Pakistan militarily occupied some parts of the erstwhile princely state in 1948.*

Abscence of industry... the economy is largely agro-pastoral but has expanded to include tourism along with gemstones mining. 

And low literacy levels, you should check out the work that the Aga Khan Foundation has undertaken in the NA. 

What rebellion by the way? 


*
Stringent laws make the region inaccessible to foreigners and there are few media reports from the region.*

About time the writer went there and saw the foreign tourists who come every year. He probably got denied visa and is now generalising his experience

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## Salahadin

India has clearly lost this battle of so called or may I called it wana be super power they have been unsuccessful in many things like from their Nuclear tests to their Tanks. and now looks like Kashmir is lost tooo


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## sadiqams

Its just giving them the right to govern themselves but with in the federation of Pakistan. It is an inegral part of Pakistan. Unlike Indian Occupied Kashmir Pakistan did not take direct action but was invited in to form the Government as the area is a Majority Muslim area it is but natural for it to be federated to Pakistan. Yes it was in Pakistan's interest to settle the border with China and it has become a strategic relationship. India has been hotheaded and has decided not to settle with China and has paid the Price. You can not leave a population for an long period of time with out representation in the polity of the state. The people need their rights like access to the courts, legal services, schools and other things that governments do for their people. The separatist in Muzafarabad is a minority of not more then several but less than four and most likely encouraged from accross the LOC by RAW. I say bring Azad Kashmir into the federation also and let thme join into the politics of the federation.


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## IndiaNews98

If Pakistani Kashmir joins the federation, that means an Independent Kashmir is no longer a possibility. Am I correct?

P.S. Don't accuse RAW unless you have proof please! Its too convenient an excuse!


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## Elmo

IndiaNews98 said:


> If Pakistani Kashmir joins the federation, that means an Independent Kashmir is no longer a possibility. Am I correct?
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> No it's not a possibility. But Pakistan doesn't aspire for an independent kashmir as it considers it to be its part. So your argument is pointless.


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## Y2A

hideous, disgusting shame on largest de-mockery


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## Y2A

Khajur said:


> India can give full autonomy under indian constitution protecting civil liberties, to the vally and *** (theoritically) as promised to Shiek Abdulla earlier and and also take out Jammu and Laddak regions as new state and a union territory respectively.I were the pm....i would gone for this plan.



and i was wondering why are you khajoor


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## ashwin

graphican said:


> Musharaf not only lost two worlds himself but he made millions of People suffer in Pakistan and Kashmir because of his "wise" and "patriotic" policies. What kind of soldier was he who gave up life of Hundred Thousand sacrifices of Kashmirs and Pakistan's stance in the United Nations? Who did Musharraf fight for? for Kashmirs? for Pakistanis? The dumb head went for Karghil and upon return lied down aganst Indians to "do" him and rest of the country under his rule?
> 
> Its time for us to start supporting Kashmirs again. They are Pakistani People, the Muslim Blood that is being crushed under Military Shoes. Who is stopping us claiming for what belongs to us? The "Night" has shed, Musharaf is history.. I request the present Government to go back to the stance that BB and Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto Had. Zulfiqar Ali, the sword of Hazrat Ali and look what "followers" of him we have now.. people who call Indian attempt to invade border as "Technical Mistake" and have owned Qassab who's nationality is still not proven.. Shame on you Zardari.. Shame on you Yusuf Raza Gillani and Shame us including me who has is sitting in home and letting this bull-**** government hold on to the seat!



The blood of the Kashmiris, the blood of Pakistanis and the blood of Indians which has spilled for the cause of Kashmir. Is it not enough. I respect your sentiments for the blood of Kashmiris and Pakistani soldiers. But dont you think that same sort of sentiments would be present in India about Indian soldiers.

It is for sure we can not have solution to this problem by force neither India nor Pakistan because neither of two want to nor they will go for the conventional war over the same issue. because it will ensure "Mutually Assured Destruction" for both the nations.

Is it not enough or we want more blood to be spilled on the both sides.?


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## Developereo

Here's a radical thought:

Instead of Pakistanis or Indians imposing a solution on the Kashmiris, why not let them decide for themselves?

Withdraw troops, hold plebiscite monitored by UN/Pak/Indian observers, and abide by the Kashmiri decision.

It's not that complicated, really, if both India and Pakistan really want to do what's best for the Kashmiri people.

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## vsdoc

Here's an even more radical plan ..... why doesn't pakistan agree it started it all by being the first agressor in 1947, withdraw from *** with an apology to the people (the UN would be the correct forum I feel), and once that is done, India will withdraw its forces from Kashmir, and then let the people of the *entire kashmir* decide.

Cheers, Doc

P.S. Good afternoon Gracie.

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## arihant

Ya, Kashmir was independent until Pak attacked and King annexed it to India.


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## Developereo

vsdoc said:


> let the people of the *entire kashmir* decide.



I've got no problem with that.
Let all three parts of Kashmir unite and decide their future without interference from China, India or Pakistan.



vsdoc said:


> P.S. Good afternoon Gracie.



Nope. You still got it wrong.
Here, go back and look at my original post to learn how to use it...
http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...i-honest-indian-perspective-8.html#post463726


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## duhastmish

the best solution of indian kashmir - is in kashmiri people's hand.

i tell you give them peace for 2 years give them development like whole india is getting - state will go up like no tomaroww- we have tourism, sports man , land which gives you gold in harvesting, educated people . 

then ask them what do they want ??????

these jihadi are not letting that happen - and india and pakistan politics is just takign kashmir as an issue not a people's mother land.

we kashmiri just want peace and prosperity.


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## idune

*A Brief Catalogue of Indian Atrocities in Kashmir*

*Since 1989, an estimated 40,000 Kashmiris have been killed by the Indian forces stationed in Kashmir.* For the last five years the people of the State have intensified their efforts in order to invite the attention of the world community towards the Kashmir Dispute, though the people of the State had been fighting for their just cause peacefully for the last forty eight years. Indian Government throughout these four decades has been suppressing the people by illegal use of force, putting them into the jails/ Interrogation centres etc. under draconian laws. Whenever any person demanded holding of  Plebiscite, he has been put behind the bars.

*The Indian Forces, stationed in Kashmir, have been given a free hand to kill any person they choose. These powers have been given to them under the draconian laws like Disturbed Areas Act of 1990&#8243; and Indian Armed Forces Act of 1990&#8243;.* Indifference shown by world community to the miseries of people, have encouraged and given a free hand to armed forces, to deal with the people, as they like. *In October 1992, the Indian Armed forces started to intensify the killing of people immediately after their arrest. These operations have been carried out under the code name of Operation Tiger, Operation Eagle and Operation Shiva. Now the armed forces have resorted to another policy of Catch and Kill which means that no sooner a person is taken into custody, within minutes he is brutally tortured and killed . The dead body is then thrown into the street. In other cases, innocent civilians are arrested and taken to border areas where they are shot. The Indian government then publicises that these people were militants killed in armed encounters with the troops.*
It is common practice for the paramilitary forces to walk into a quiet village/town and start shooting indiscriminately, killing innocent and unarmed civilians - all under the pretence of crack-down operations against the Freedom-Fighters. In most cases, innocent civilians are killed, women gang-raped and properties set on fire.

TORTURE AND CUSTODIAL DEATHS
Indian armed forces have let loose a reign of terror and are pursuing with the policy of unabated killings, torture and brutal methods of killings in Kashmir State since 1989. Despite the fact that international community and Human Rights Organizations all over the World have registered constant protests against this policy of Indian Government in Kashmir, no change is visible in the acts of repressions and suppression at the hands of forces. In fact the death due to torture and in custody have alarmingly increased.

Many such incidents go un-noticed due to severe restrictions on the movement of people, constant crackdowns, curfews and other repressive measures by the forces. However, the Forum has been able to collect details about some such incidents which are based on personal information, print and electronic media and data collected by Human Rights activists. The officials and armed forces are in the habit of naming such killings as the result of so called encounters. But the fact of the situation is that most of such arrests are made during crackdown operations where people of the area are collected first, bodily searched before their entry in the specified area and then subjected to identification. The arrests of the people are made when such persons are totally unarmed and there is no possibility of any encounter with the forces. Such fake encounters are carved out by the forces in order to save themselves from the wrath of international community and over all public resentment.

Rape and Molestation of Women
Presently, the situation in Kashmir, according to international organiasations & global media has not changed yet very much. It is still alarming and sparking flames in South Asia, that more then seven hundred thousand Indian army deployed in a small 40 -80 square miles area is the heaviest concentration in human history, and its all without any moral, political and legal code. 92 thousand Kashmiris have been killed by the Indian army in 17 years.

*Since January 1989 to April 30, 2007:
Total killing. 91,865
Custodial Killing 6,899
Women gang raped & Molested 9,708
Civilian arrested 113,798
Structures arsoned /Destroyed 105,353
Children orphaned 106,930
Women widowed 22,530*

*The International NGOs Amnesty International, Human rights watch, Asia watch, Red Cross, Medicine sans frontier and others are not allowed to visit Kashmir. Torture is widespread, particularly in the temporary detention centres; methods of torture include electric shock, prolonged beatings and sexual molestation of innocent women.*

Kashmir is a disputed territory. Presently, the ceasefire line between the forces of India and Pakistan has divided Kashmir into two parts. One part is under Indian occupation: this comprises 63% of the whole territory and includes the Vale; it has a population 7.5 million. The other part, with approximately 3 million people, includes Azad Kashmir and the Northern region of Gilgit and Baltistan and is administered by Pakistan. About 1.5 million Kashmiris are refugees in Pakistan, some 400,000 live in Britain, and about 250,000 are scattered around the world. The present arbitrary bifurcation of Kashmir has resulted in the division of thousands of Kashmiri families.

Kashmiris living there have no life safety and human honour. Women are degraded and humiliated, almost 10 thousands women are raped; not only adult women but even eight year old girls are victimised.

Since the Indian government crackdown against Kashmiris in the disputed territory of Kashmir began in earnest in January 1990, security forces and Indian army have used rape as a weapon: to punish, intimidate, coerce, humiliate and degrade. Rape by Indian security forces most often occurs during crackdowns, cordon-and-search operations during which men are held for identification in parks or schoolyards while security forces search their homes. In these situations, the security forces frequently engage in collective punishment against the civilian population by assaulting residents and burning their homes. Rape is used as a means of targeting women to punish and humiliate the entire community. Rape has also occurred frequently during reprisal attacks on civilians. In many of these attacks, the selection of victims is seemingly arbitrary and the women, like other civilians assaulted or killed, are targeted simply because they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Women who are the victims of rape are often stigmatised, and their testimony and integrity impugned. Social attitudes which cast the woman, and not her attacker, as the guilty party pervade the judiciary, making rape cases difficult to prosecute and leaving women unwilling to press charges.

Government authorities have failed to bring the culprits on record. The normal trend of the Government during these years is to hide the atrocities committed by the Indian armed and paramilitary forces in order to dodge the Amnesty International and the world Human Rights Organization.

Various NGOs and human rights organisations are working for feminism and other civil & social rights, but in my opinion no satisfied work regarding Kashmiri womens safety and modesty. Women and Children are the victim of the worst human rights violations in this area of armed conflicts and ethnic war. It is crystal clear that sexual violence, which was used to subjugate and destroy a people as a form of ethnic cleansing, was an abhorrent and heinous war crime. These persistent and gross abuses, flagrant denials of the human rights of women and their right to life itself, demanded an urgent response from international human rights bodies.

According to data maintained by a media portal of United Kingdom (UK) on reported cases of rape and molestation in which security forces were allegedly involved, nearly 500 women were raped in various parts of Jammu and Kashmir between1990-1994. Media portal maintains that it has compiled the reports from what was reported by state media. The portal maintains that non-governmental organisations (NGO) hardly took interest in documenting the plight of these silent sufferers of Jammu and Kashmir.

According to a 1994 United Nations publication from 1990 to 1996, 882 women were reportedly gang-raped by security forces in Jammu and Kashmir. But Social Stigma associated with word Rape has made work of human rights and women NGOs cumbersome. They say that women are reluctant to come forward. Extra Judicial killings, rapes, custodial killings, kidnappings, burning of houses by Indian security forces within IHK remain a common practice. The whole IHK has risen against the Indian Army and the Armed Forces Special Powers Act AFSPA and POTA that enables the Indian Army to arrest and kill anyone, anytime, anywhere, in a bid to suppress the ongoing Kashmir liberation movement, the Indian authorities have laid a network of torture cells to practice human rights violations. In these torture cells, the worst repressive means such as electric shocks, ironing of sensitive parts of body, are practised against the innocent Kashmiris without caring for the age and health conditions. Besides, the female folk are also taken to these centres where they are reportedly gang-raped for protesting against the Indian brutalities or filing complaints against terrorising of their near and dear ones. 

This poverty struck women have nothing to feed their children. Their husbands went missing and they could not even wail over their missing husbands.1000 widows, whose husbands have disappeared but not been proven dead. Their children were killed in front of their eyes and yet they are doing rounds of the government offices to prove that their children were killed in cold blood. The dreaded attack by soldiers and an assault on their honour and body remains in the minds of every woman in Kashmir. The young widows and teenaged orphan girls are facing more problems due to their youth as they are always at danger of getting molested or raped. It is matter of concern that most of the married women face the problem of miscarriages, which is one of the fastest growing problem in the rural and border areas of Kashmir.

These happenings are not confined to Muslims. In the last 16 years the women of Kashmir have had to bear male vengeance in silence and they have been unable to find spare to transcend that. Estimates given by various organisations place widowS between 30 000 to 40 000 and Orphans between 50 000 to 80 000.the raped women are doubly victimised and have to live the rest of their carrying to stamp of stigma in silence.

The peace process began three years ago between India and Pakistan on Kashmir, and there has been dozens of talks for 60 years, three wars in 1947, 1965 and 1971, thousands of innocent peoples from both sides have been killed. But the end is no where in sight. The United Nations had 6 resolutions passed time to time but justice, and implementation of these resolutions have been delayed.

It is imperative that the United Nations, European Union and Organisation of Islamic Conference and other powers to start the negotiation and mediation with Kashmiri leadership and influential organisations from both sides of Kashmir. Because both countries Pakistan and India have got nuclear capacity because of Kashmir. Political pundits predict cloud of nuclear war is seeing on sky of South Asia clearly. In these difficult circumstances, this dress code edict is simply misplaced, if not a deliberately planted red herring. More pain for the Kashmiri women, thousands of whom have already lost their husbands, sons and loved ones to the bullets and atrocities of the marauding Indian soldiers and many of whom have also fallen victim to sexual defilement.

The European parliament has adopted MEP Emma Nicholson report titled Kashmir; Present situation and future prospects on May 25, 2007, by an overwhelming 522 votes in favour to 19 votes against. The report recognised Kashmiris right to self-determination, deploring massive human rights abuses in Jammu & Kashmir, encouraging the Peace process between India and Pakistan and emphasising inclusion of Kashmiris in the Peace process. The Amnesty International released a latest Global report 2007 said in that there is many violence, torture, custodial deaths enforced disappearances and extra-judicial executions continued in Jammu & Kashmir in the year 2006.

Rape in war is not merely a matter of chance nor is it a question of sex. It is rather a question of power and control which is `structured by male soldiers notions of their masculine privilege. Kashmir is rising flame, which is increasing speedily. If United Nations, European Union and other world wide NGOs do not succeeded in finding an acceptable solution with the participation of kashmiris, it will cause disaster for this part of South Asia. World powers and Global Institutions need to understand this burning issue.

The people of Kashmir demand an end to the military occupation of their land. Because they demand what they have been pledged by both India and Pakistan and guaranteed by the United Nations Security Council with the unequivocal endorsement of the United States, demilitrisation of Kashmir and a free plebiscite vote organised impartially.

Every Kashmiri is waiting anxiously for somebody to help attain freedom for them. I am a women so I understand feelings and emotions, inner voice of every Kashmiri woman.

Atrocities On Kashmiri&#8217;s - A Catalogue | India-Facts - Dedicated to truth, peace and non-violent freedom of expression

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## idune

http://img24.imageshack.us/i/kashmir.jpg/


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## idune

*Indian Forces Worst Massacres In Kashmirs History*

Sopur, Jan 5: Massacre of 57 unarmed civilians in Sopur town 14 years back is one of the few massacres that got a few columns of space in prestigious TIME magazine. The magazine described the massacre, and the protests that ensued thus:

Perhaps there is a special corner in hell reserved for troopers who fire their weapons indiscriminately into a crowd of unarmed civilians. That, at least, must have been the hope of every resident who defied an army-enforced curfew in the Kashmiri town of Sopur to protest a massacre that left 55 people dead and scores injured.

It was Indias latest blow in a three-year campaign to crush the predominantly Muslim states bid for independence. In retaliation for the killing of one soldier, paramilitary forces rampaged through Sopurs market setting buildings ablaze and shooting bystanders. The Indian government pronounced the event unfortunate and claimed that an ammunition dump had been hit by gunfire, setting off fires that killed most of the victims.

The magazine had titled the news report (on January 18, 1993) Blood tide rising: Indian forces carry out one of the worst massacres in Kashmirs history.

In the reconstructed Iqbal Market it is hard to find the traces of the carnage the Border Security Force troopers carried out on January 6, 1993, killing 57 persons, most of them roasted alive in shops, buses, and houses. The troopers set about 100 houses and 300 shops on fire after dousing them with gunpowder, the local residents recall.

It was the chilly morning of January 6, 1993 when militants attacked the troopers of BSF at Baba Younis Lane near the Sopur towns main street, killing two of them. The militants also took away the rifles of the slain troopers. The troopers went berserk and opened indiscriminate fire on unarmed civilians and set on fire markets, mainly Iqbal Market, and Womens Degree College.

The local residents regard the incident as one of the worst massacres in the history of Kashmir.

I cannot forget that horrendous incident till I am alive; the troops were on rampage; I lost two relatives in the incident, said Ali Muhammad, an eyewitness and survivor of the carnage. I wonder can doomsday be worse, he says.

The mayhem continued for more than 2 hours with peoplehelpless and hopelesswatching the devastation from a distance. None from the civil administration or Fire Service Department came to the rescue of the hapless people. Only the valor and heroism of the local populace made its appearance, helping each other. In one hour, the locals recovered the dead bodies of more than 50 civilians and miraculously rescued many more.

Some fifteen civilians who tired to rescue their brethren were also shot dead by the troopers, said Abdul Majid, a survivor. Ghulam Nabi Bhat of New Light Hotel shouldered 11 dead bodies and before he could carry the 12th, he too was shot dead.

For three days people rummaged the debris for dead bodies. Strong protests rocked the town for many days continuously. Many charities came up but soon vanished. The insurance companies refused to give any compensation to the victims. The victims knocked the doors of government offices but to no avail.

The massacre would haunt us as long as we are alive, said Muhammad Abbas of Sopur.

Names of few slain:

Abdul Majid Sofi, 35, s/o Muhammad Shafi r/o Krankshiwan 
Abdur Rashid War s/o Ghulam Muhammad War r/o Tujarsherief, Sopur 
Abdul. Khaliq Malik s/o Ghulam Mohi-ud-Din r/o Arampora 
Abdul Ahad Kanjwal r/o Muslimpeer 
Abdul Ahad Shalla r/o Shallapora 
Abdur Rashid Sofi s/o Abdul Jabbar r/o Wanagam, Bandipora 
Abdul Ahad Liloo,70, r/o Bba Yousu, Sopur 
Abdur Razaq Chalkoo s/o Ghulam Muhammad 
Bashir Ahmad Shalla s/o Ghulam Rasool r/o Shallapora, Sopur 
Farooq Ahmad Banday s/o Abdur Rashid r/o Sangrampora, Sopur 
Ghulam Nabi Zargar alias Shaheen s/o Qadir Joo r/o Badamibagh Sopur 
Ghulam Muhammad War s/o Muhammad Sultan r/o Tujarshrief 
Ghulam Nabi Bhat s/o Haji Abdullah r/o Sangrampora 
Gulzar Ahmad Sheikh s/o Muhammad Abdullah r/o Shahabad Sopur 
Ghulam Mohi-Ud-Din s/o Assadullah r/o Nathpora, Bandipora 
Ghulam Rasool Sofi s/o Muhammad. Sultan r/o Langate 
Ghulam Muhammad Khan r/o Bandipora and 
Ghulam Muhammad Hajam s/o Abdul Gaffar r/o Mohallah Hajampora, Sopur

Indian Forces Worst Massacres In Kashmir?s History KASHMIR MEDIA


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## glomex

idune said:


> *A Brief Catalogue of Indian Atrocities in Kashmir*
> 
> *Since ..................[/url]*


*

Posting an article from a Pakistani propaganda Site....you could have done better....

---------- Post added at 04:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:45 PM ----------




idune said:



http://img24.imageshack.us/i/kashmir.jpg/

Click to expand...


Who will verify if these people were not killed by a terrorist attack......
*

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## idune

*He Was Just 14!*

March 7, 2007 

Srinagar, Mar 7: Muhammad Iqbal Shah holds an unenviable distinction in the Valley of woes: he was 14 when BSF soldiers arrested him, never to return. Thus, hes the youngest among thousands of Kashmiris who disappeared in custody.

Iqbal, a student of Wagoora Varmul, was working hard to pass his matriculation examination when troops of 163 battalion of paramilitary Border Security Force arrested him on March 13, 1995. He was brutally tortured and all our attempts to rescue him proved futile, his father Muhammad Yousuf said.

Though troops released his two classmates who were arrested a day before him, but there was no trace of Iqbal. The family approached the BSF camp but they denied his arrest.

The assurances of the then Senior Superintendent of Police Muneer Khan, Deputy Commissioner and Lt. Gen M A Zaki, advisor to Governor, too proved futile, Yousuf said.

Shattered, the family filed a Habeas Corpus petition in the High Court for locating the Iqbals whereabouts. On July 16, 1996, it directed the District and Sessions Judge Varmul to hold an inquiry.

After receiving the report, which confirmed the arrest of Iqbal, the Court finally disposed off the case on April 6 1999, with the direction to conduct an investigation and conclude the same in accordance with the law.

On Court directions a case under FIR no 88/99 under sections 346 RPC was registered at Police Station Varmul. Acting on court directions, District Magistrate Varmul formed a four-member committee comprising Additional District Magistrate Varmul as its Chairman, Deputy Superintendent of Police Varmul, Tehsildar and SHO Police Station Varmul as members.

During the course of investigation all the legal formalities were completed, statements of witnesses were recorded and it was established that M C Heldar Deputy Commandant and J N Singh Assistant Commandant of 163 Battalion BSF are involved in the case and offence Sec 346 (abduction) has been proved against them, the committee in its report said.

The Committee quoting a report of Director General of Police addressed to Principal Secretary on September 8, 2000 said, On March 1995 personnel of BSFs 163 battalion raided the house of Muhammad Iqbal, Muhammad Ibrahim and Ghulam Mohiuddin Mir of Wagoora. All of them were ruthlessly beaten in BSF vehicles towards Anantnag (Islamabad). Two of them namely Muhammad Ibrahim and Ghulam Muhammad were left in serious condition at unknown places whereas whereabouts of Muhammad Iqbal were not known.

After taking into consideration all aspects and reports received from different headquarters, we reached at the conclusion that Muhammad Iqbal Shah son of Muhammad Yousuf Shah of Wagoora, who was a student of 10th class is presumed to be killed and his dead body has been disposed off somewhere, the report said.

Despite the declaration that my son was killed by the BSF men, neither has his body been handed over to me nor the accused punished, his father said.

We have suffered enough for the past seven years, now we want justice, he said.

He Was Just 14! KASHMIR MEDIA


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## Spring Onion

Hi here is an interesting account of much talked about IPKF in Sri Lanka 


(Memorial for IPKF  Indian Peace Keeping Force)



*Memorial for IPKF - Innocent People Killing Force*
By Dr. T. Somasekaram

(Source: Sooriyan - March 21, 2004)


I was shocked, saddened and angered when I read the news item on 17 March 2004 in Sri Lanka Media, that a memorial is to be erected in Colombo for the Indian Peace Keeping Force - IPKF soldiers who died in Sri Lanka between 1987 and 2000. The simple fact of the matter is that a foreign country, with designs of becoming a regional superpower, maneuvered to send its Army here as Peace Keepers but massacred thousands of innocent Tamil civilians, raped the women and plundered valuables.If memorials are to be erected, then it should be for innocent civilians massacred by the IPKF. Let me provide a FEW samples from my personal knowledge. These represent but the tip of an iceberg. I write as an authentic son of Jaffna, born and bred there, educated at Jaffna Hindu College and the only house my wife and I own is in Jaffna.

*Civilians Massacred by IPKF* 

*Jaffna Hospital* :- Doctors, Nurses and Patients inside the Jaffna Teaching Hospital, numbering 68 in all. .Their names are:- Dr A. Sivapathasuntheram, Dr M.K. Ganesharatnam, Dr Parimelalahar, Mrs Vadivelu, Matron, Mrs Leelawathie, Nurse, Mrs Sivapakiam, Nurse, Mrs Ramanathan, Nurse, Mr Shanmugalingam, Ambulance Driver, Mr Kanagalingam, Telephone Operator, Mr Krishnarajah, Works Supervisor, Mr Selvarajah, Works Supervisor, Eleven (11) Minor employees and forty six (46) patients

*Duraiswamy brothers *:- Two sons of late Sir Waithialingam Duraiswamy, Speaker of the State Council, residing in their ancestral home next to the Jaffna Clock Tower. One was R. Duraiswamy (SLAS) Retd. Secretary. Ministry of Local Government and M. Duraiwswamy Retd. Staff Officer Bank of Ceylon. 

Retd Director of Irrigation Mr. S. Sivasubramaniam, retired Director of Irrigation, Mrs. Sivasubramaniam, his retired teacher wife and their only son, a brilliant boy who had studied at St. Johns College, Jaffna, scored 4As in the GCE(Al) and was in the second year of Medical College. 

*Other Civilians Killed in Jaffna*:- Prof. P. Chandrasekeram, University of Jaffna, Dr R.W. Crossette Thambiah, Dr Selvaratnam Former DMO Maskeliya, Dr S. Pararajasingham J.M.O, L.F.M. Samuel Rtd. Teacher (St. Thomas College, Mt. Lavinia & Royal College), K.J. Sambanthar Retd. DLO & Asst. Land Commissioner, Jaffna, Mrs S. Sivanandaraja (mother), Mohanraj (son) Technical Officer, Irrigation .Dept, Mrs Kishnam, Mrs M. Sebastiampillai, Mrs N.R. Thuriappa, Mrs V. Ruthiralingam, C.S. Aaron .
*
Urumpirai:- *A. Subramanium Attorney at Law, Mr & Mrs Pancharatnam, Rtd. Teachers, K. Navaratnam Rtd. Divisional Supdt. of Post Offices, S. Nadarajah, Formerly SLBC, Tamil Service, P. Arooran , M. Nadaraja, S. Rasanayagam Rtd. Credit Controller CCC Ltd. 

*Anaikoddai *:- Mrs M. Weerasegaram Pillai, (Mother), Pillai Yasotha Weerasegaram (Daughter), Mrs S. Thanapalasingham (Mother) Miss N. Thanapalasingham (Daughter) S. Kulasegerampillai, Retd. Station Master, Mrs M. Arumugam .Mrs R. Gnanamuttu , A. Candappu Rtd. State Officer, S. Selvaranee 

*Pirampadi, Kokuvil etc:- *A large number of civilians were killed in Pirampadi and Kokuvil and buried in mass graves. The whole matter requires a book to do full justice. 

*Ariyalai (my village) *

Ariyalai is at the eastern end of Jaffna town and the A9 highway passes through it. This was one of the four routes the Indian Army took to enter and capture Jaffna. From Oct 10, 1987, we, living in Dehiwala, lost all contact with our relatives who lived in Ariyalai, among them my wifes 71 year old mother, her sisters and their children, my close friends from my boyhood days in Jaffna. For twenty one (21) days, there was a continuous curfew imposed by the IPKF with half an hours notice. The local and foreign media were completely cut off from the scene of operations and terrible things  yes, I use words carefully, TERRIBLE THINGS, were done to the Tamils in Jaffna. Rumours were rife. The militants said 30,000 civilians were killed. But I searched for reliable evidence, and these started trickling in, from late October 1987.

One reliable class of evidence is the number of persons known to me personally, quite a number are blood relatives, who were killed. Among those killed were a 45 year old cousin brother, S. Shanmugasuntharam, Electrician, Jaffna Municipal Council, married, with two children, shot while going to his paddy field in East Ariyalai. No one could reach the body; jackals and dogs ate the flesh and his brother Sinnathurai told me that the limbs and other parts were in different part of the paddy field and he gathered them and buried them in the paddy field. Sinnathurai had wept tears of a different sort in 1981 when he told me what he found on the day following the burning of the Jaffna Library, where he worked as an Assistant Librarian. But let us remain focussed on the IPKF in this article.

An 84 year old uncle, S. Thambiah, father of the well known Journalist T. Sabaratnam, was killed inside his home by an Indian artillery shell. His daughter Pathma and grandchildren had taken refuge inside Ariyalai Sri Sithivinayagar temple and were unaware of what had happened. One of my childhood classmates, Poologasingam, who lived nearby and had also not gone to the temple as a refugee, discovered what had happened, cut a pit in the garden, put my uncle in a sack and buried him there. No last rites; no cremation. Poologasingam went near the temple and shouted, "Pillai Pathma, Appah Vaikundam poddar; naan thevai yathanich seythu poddan (Child Pathma, your father has gone to heaven; I have done what was necessary). 

My cousin Sabaratnams loss did not stop with his father. His mother in law, 80 year old Mrs. Thambimuttu was a refugee inside the temple. But an old lady cannot easily adjust to conditions inside a tightly packed temple  and Hindu temples do not have toilet facilities, as devotees are expected to come in a clean state. So she went to her home within 250 metres of the temple for her morning ablutions. She was walking back feebly, with the aid of a walking stick and holding a flickering lamp, and was within 50 metres of the temple when she was shot dead by the Indian soldiers, from Sri Parwathi Vidyasalai which they were occupying. They discovered who they had killed and set fire to the body where it lay, using a tyre. She and my late mother Mrs. Saraswathy Thamotharam had been classmates in Chundikuli Girlss College, Jaffna. She had been a source of comfort to my mother when we lost our father when mother was 28 years old and had to face the grim prospect of feeding, clothing and educating my brother (7 yrs) and myself (2 yrs), with not even a pension as father had served for less than 10 years. I felt so deeply about her loss that I ventured into blank verse. 


*
The Gentle Old Aachi*



The gentle old aachi,

Weak and wobbly with age,

Walking with her pollu,

Slowly to the temple.

Husband gone long before, 

Children retired or about to, 

Grandchildren in their prime, 

Great grandchildren by the dozen.

Weak of eye, weak of limb, 

Fond memories of yester year,

Longing to meet her God, 

Slowly walking to his abode.

Om Ganesha!, What hit me?

What burning pain, 

What great thirst, 

She writhed briefly on the road, 

And then lay still, 

White saree bathed in blood.

The gentle old aachi, 

Felled by an alien bullet, 

Fired by an alien hand, 

In this our free land, 

The gentle old aachi, 

Shot like a dog and burnt at the spot.

More than our relatives, we mourn the death of the elder son of the chief priest of our temple, Subramaniya Kurukkal. Young Kannan Iyer, 24 years old, very fair, very handsome, well versed in Hindu neethi and also a fully qualified Accountant, was managing his own Accounting firm in Jaffna and assisting his father in carrying out the temple duties. He told his father on Deepavali Day in Oct 1987, when the father was getting ready to go to the temple to open the inner sanctum and light the lamps inside, to stay at home and that he would go by bicycle by a circuitous route to the temple to light the lamps. The inner sanctum had not been opened or lit after the influx of refugees. Only Brahmin priests can enter the inner sanctum. Instead of going to the temple, he went to heaven. 

If anyone is interested, I shall take him or her to speak to Kannan Iyers mother. His father, the chief priest of our temple, performed the ancient Hindu marriage ceremony for me and my wife in 1962. He repeated it for our elder daughter and son-in-law in 1982. He is a learned and pious man and he has the spiritual resources to withstand the loss of his elder son. But tears flowed down the cheeks of his wife for the entire 45 minutes we spent with them in March 1988, five months after the joy of their life was snuffed out by the Indian army. To me, this is the worst crime of the IPKF assault on Jaffna. The life of a young and brilliant Brahmin priest, who would have risen to great heights promoting Saivaism, was snuffed out wantonly  and this on Deepavali day when he set out to open the sanctum sanctorum and light a lamp inside the temple. 

Twenty six persons lost their lives in my village alone, during the Indian armys campaign to gain control of Jaffna Peninsula in October-November 1987. 

*Rape *

The IPKF Operation in Jaffna did not stop with massacres of civilians. A large number of women were raped. The following quotation is taken from Prof Daya Somasundarams book Scarred Minds  The Psychological Impact of War on Sri Lankan Tamils. Prof Daya Somasundaram is the Professor of Psychiatry in the University of Jaffna and concurrently Consultant Psychiatrist, General (Teaching Hospital) Jaffna. He was one of the four authors of the book, Broken Palmyrah, which was critical of the LTTE, a co-author of Mental Health in Cambodia, where he served as a Consultant Psychiatrist and Manavadu in Tamil 

*Rape by Indian Soldiers *

From time immemorial, plunder and rape have been considered the spoils of war. A form of psychopathic liberation resulting in looting, rape and heavy drinking is reported to follow major stressful events (Kinston and Rosser, 1974). Although the total number of rapes during the Indian army operations are not known, it seemed to reach epidemic proportions. It has been verified that quite a large number, ranging from young girls who had just attained puberty to old women well past the menopause stage, were brutally raped.

What is said about violence in general is applicable to sexual violence. However, aggressive sexual assault has its own unique characteristics and consequences. Thus,

Rape is a violent crime in which sexuality is used to express power, anger and aggression, with a core meaning of devaluation, humiliation, sheer terror and most intimate violation of the self for the victim. What is translated to the victim is the life-threatening nature of assault, her helplessness, her loss of control and her experience of herself as an object of the assailants rage (Mezy, 1985).

Rape became common in the context of total war as it obtained in the months of October to December (1987), when all the customary discipline and restraint operative in the army disappeared. As discussed earlier, there appears to have been a policy decision to apply terror in the face of early losses and frustration over the prolongation of the conflict. The public was seen as being too sympathetic to the Tigers, harbouring and helping them against the Indian army. Thus terror became an instrument of control, a punishment for the lack of support and a lesson to the public. The army hierarchical structure worked to allow the jawans to carry out the acts on their behalf, although at times lower-rank officers also vented their pent up frustration in this way. But rape was much more gruesome as it was aimed specifically at women. It was carried out with considerable brutality and impersonality, where the victims were publicly defeminised and destroyed. 

Rape can be seen as a loss-event for the victim where she loses her trust in others, self-respect, sense of security, chastity and virginity, social identity and becomes liable to secondary victimization due to social norms and values. The psychological reactions to rape have been described as a three-stage phenomena with an initial state of shock and disbelief with disruption of normal behaviour. This may be followed by feelings of guilt, self-blame, and physical complaints. If the resolution to the psychological trauma is incomplete, long-term consequences include depression (40 per cent of victims), psychosomatic problems, sexual dysfunction, specific rape-related phobias, impaired task performance, social maladjustment and risk of suicide attempts (Mezey, 1985).

In our cultural setting, sexual violence takes on a more serious significance and has a severe psychologically traumatizing effect on the victim and her close relations, including her husband. Chastity is traditionally considered one of the supreme virtues of women, to be safeguarded with the same diligence as their life. The screams and pleading of a young, attractive girl, whom three soldiers were trying to rape at gun point, still echoes in my ears. She fell at their feet and begged, Please, brother, shoot me, but dont do this Fortunately for her, her pleading got through to an officer who took pity and let her go, after slapping her. A young rape victim in Tinnavelly immediately attempted to commit suicide by jumping into a well.

Loss of virginity in a young girl even if against her will, meant that she could not aspire to marriage in our society and if already married, there is a good chance that she will be abandoned. All rape victims are socially ostracized and this usually extends to the family also. It is not surprising that rape victims were not forthcoming to report such incidents and usually swallowed the suffering and injury silently.

These incidents of rape, the lack of protection for women and the rumours that spread, created great fear among the women of Jaffna. The threat to womanhood was very real in the months of October and November. Most women experienced sexual anxiety and felt exposed and vulnerable. Many fled to areas they felt were safe, a large exodus reaching Colombo in December, when transport became available. Those left behind started acting with circumspection by following the well-meant advice of sympathetic, Tamil-speaking jawans of wearing saris, putting poddus and staying indoors.

At the beginning, there was lack of action by the commanders, probably because they had to maintain troop morale in a difficult situation during the first two months and rape itself became part of army action. Later, disciplinary action was taken with identification parades and punishment, usually in the form of public thrashing and transfer to another unit. After December the jawans were more discreet and circumspect. By 1988, the higher authorities showed much sensitivity to the issue of rape, probably due to the wide publicity outside Jaffna. They even brought in female police and paramilitary to ally the fears of local women.

The public outcry and wide publicity of this aspect of the Indians occupation that gained momentum from December reflected the deep-rooted feeling of insecurity and the cultural significance of this threat to our women. 

This ends the quotation from Prof Daya Somasundarams book. But there was other evidence as well. 

Inside Ariyalai Temple Inside our village temple, Ariyalai Sri Sithi Vinayagar Kovil, where people had gathered as refugees, young village girls were molested by the Indian soldiers inside the temple. Dr. W. Paramanathan, great grandson of Proctor V. Casipillai who had rebuilt the temple in 1900, after its destruction during the Portugese occupation, was an eye witness. My blood boiled; but I was helpless he told me. In fact, being a young man, he was taken out twice to be shot as a Tiger and only the strong pleadings of his aunt Miss K. Charavanamuttu, retired Principal of Vadamarachchy Hindu Ladies College saved his life. Dr. Paramanathan has migrated to the United States and is living there. 

*Plunder*

The 21 day curfew proved to be a golden opportunity - in a real golden sense  to the Indian soldiers. They broke into every house, broke open every almyrah and stole the valuables inside. As everyone knows, all Jaffna Tamil Hindu women wear a lot of gold jewellery. When they had to flee at half an hours notice, they could not remove all their valuables. When the families returned, they found their gold jewellery, imported watches and Parker pens missing. In 1987, India was still a closed economy and these imported items were not available in India. Not merely the soldiers, even the officers helped themselves. This is what the Island of 22 Feb 1988 reported.

*IPKF Major Returning to India Apprehended - Alleged Contraband Jewellery: *

A Major of the IPKF who is said to have returned to India from Jaffna on a months holiday is alleged to have been apprehended at Chandigarh airport with having carried jewellery believed to be contraband.

A news report appearing in the 'Rani Weekly' of January 31, 1988 published in Tamil Nadu state that this Major serving in Jaffna had flown to Madras by plane and then to Chandigarh in Punjab on a months holiday. The Police there had searched him like any other passenger and found in his possession 100 sovreigns of jewellery consisting of bangles, broken chains, necklaces etc

The story states "The Police suspect that he might have snatched them from Sri Lankan Tamils. But he says they were bought by him. The magazine asks, If they were bought by him, could the jewellery be broken in pieces?

The behaviour of the Indian Army in Jaffna was so atrocious that even Sinhalese politicians were moved to protest. After all, we share this island home. Prime Minister R. Premadasa, Minister of National Security Lalith Athulathmudali, Minister of Rehabilitation Lionel Jayatilleke and Opposition Leader Anura Bandaranaike condemned the atrocities in strong language in Parliament on 21 Jan 1988. Please see Hansard Vol 47, Section 14, Hansard Vol 50, Section 2 . In fact, the Prime Minister spoke of a 79 year old woman having been raped. 

To summarise, the Indian Army came here, massacred innocent Tamil civilians, raped our women and plundered our valuables. The acronym IPKF will always stand for Indian People Killing Force where we are concerned. I was collecting this material to submit to the International Criminal Court, when it was about to be set up. Unfortunately, the crimes of the IPKF are time barred; the Court considers only cases after it was set up in July 2002. If not for this time bar, there is enough evidence against the Indian Generals and others higher up to indict them before the Court. Instead of facing the Court, they and former High Commissioner Dixit are writing books and making money out of the tragedy. 

Please go ahead and erect the memorial. Every passing Tamil will think in his heart that the memorial stands for Indian People Killing Force. We will one day erect a memorial in the heart of Jaffna town, in the centre of Hospital Road, in memory of all the innocent civilians  ranging in age from the very old past 80 to young children massacred by the IPKF and to the women who were raped. 

Dr. T. Somasekaram,

Retd. Surveyor General

Memorial for IPKF - Innocent People Killing Force


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## idune

*Troops martyr 64 Kashmiris in August*

Islamabad, September 01 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, Indian troops, in their continued acts of state terrorism, martyred 64 innocent Kashmiris, including 2 children and one woman in the last month of August. According to the data compiled by the Research Section of Kashmir Media Service, of these martyred one civilian was killed in custody. During the period, the troops critically injured 199 persons after subjecting them to torture.

39 youth were arrested and 3 women were disgraced. The killings rendered 6 women widowed and 8 children orphaned.

Illegally detained All Parties Hurriyet Conference leader, Nayeem Ahmad Khan while talking to media men at a court in Srinagar expressed concern over the deteriorating health condition of detainees in Kathua Jail. He was brought there in connection with a false case against him, He said, the detainees were not provided the basic necessities of life.

On the other hand, Indian police personnel subjected the employees of Jammu and Kashmir Road Transport Corporation to heavy lathi charge injuring at least 12 of them at Lal Chowk in Srinagar. They were protesting against the anti-people policies of the puppet regime. 

Troops martyr 64 Kashmiris in August | Kashmir Media Service

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## Spring Onion

Indian Express, Friday, April 7, 2000 

*Bodies of `slain militants' exhumed; `This is tyranny,' cry relatives *

MUZAMIL JALEEL 

VUZKHAH (ANANTNAG), APRIL 6: Even before the body was exhumed, the relatives of Zahoor Ahmad Dalal started wailing and crying. Dalal, a businessman from Anantnag was missing since March 24. His maternal uncle Nazir Ahmad Dalal identified the maroon sweater and the shirt as soon as the first grave was opened. The villagers had buried the half-burnt clothes of Dalal as well. 

"Zahoor was wearing these clothes when he was picked up. I am hundred per cent certain that they have killed him,'' Nazir Ahmad Dalal cried with the half-burnt sweater and shirt in his hands. ``They (Army) killed them and claimed to have killed top militants. It is a shame. It is a shame for Indian democracy,'' he said. He said that Zahoor Ahamd Dalal was picked up just outside their home at Mominabad. ``We had returned home after a busy day at our shop. He parked the Maruti car in the garage and went out, never to return,'' he said 

The government had ordered exhumation of the bodies of all the five persons who the Army and the police claim to be militants killed in an encounter at Zontangri peak just a few hundred metres from this graveyard. The Army and the police had claimed that these five slain "militants'' had been involved in the massacre of 35 Sikhs at Chitti Singhpora on March 20. 

The local population in this hamlet, Vuzkhal and adjoining villages, Chogam,Sumlam and Panchalthan had been accusing the Army and the police of killing five civilians in "a stage-managed encounter.'' As the missing villagers belonged to the nearby villages, these killings led to mass protests in the entire Anantnag district. The Chief minister ordered a judicial probe after police fired upon demonstrating villagers, killing eight of them and wounding dozens. 

A team of doctors led by the head of the forensic department, Government Medical College, Srinagar, reached the spot to exhume the bodies for forensic test in presence of the minister of State for Home, Mushtaq Ahmad Lone, the newly posted district magistrate, G A Peer and Senior Superintendent of Police, Muneer Khan 

As the statement of the relatives of Dalal were being recorded by the investigating police officers, who are also probing the incident on the directions of Chief Judicial Magistrate, Anantnag, an old woman started wailing. Roshan Jan, 50, had no doubts left that her husband, Juma Khan was no more. ``Main nay uski thudi aur nak pehchan lee (I identified his bearded chin and nose),'' she said. When asked whether she has any doubts left regarding the identity of her husband's body as
there is just half of the face left, she screamed at this correspondent, ``I have lived my entire life with him, how can I make a mistake in identifying him?'' 

She said that though they have burnt their bodies, she could easily recognise him by his bearded chin and nose. Roshan Jan had come all the way from village Brariangan for the identification and at home it is her son's fourth-day ceremony too. Her son was among the eight villagers killed in the police firing upon the demonstrating villagers, who were seeking exhumation of these bodies to ascertain
the fate of their missing relatives and neighbours. 

"He was a old man and was feeding our 15 family members by working as labourer for the village ironsmith,'' she said. She said the Army came in the night on March 24 and asked him to accompany them. ``He never returned,'' she said. As this correspondent started talking to her son, Abdul Rasheed Khan, she was crying -- ``Bohat zulam hova. Bohat zulam hova (This is tyranny)''. 

The doctors were examining the exhumed body, which was completely burnt.The relatives of all the five missing villagers were called but there was nothing left to identify. By then a large number of villagers had also assembled in this small graveyard in the middle of the maize fields just a few yards beneath a picturesque alpine forest. 

The police was worried as the process of exhumation was taking alot of time. ``It is a very dangerous area and the Home minister is also here. There is every likelihood of a militant attack,'' a police officer said. District magistrate Peer, who was posted after the State Government shifted the entire district administration for their failure in tackling the situation properly, said that the government would wait for the DNA analysis to reach to a final conclusion. When asked whether the
bodies identified by their relatives will be handed over to them, he said it would be decided by the court. ``We will also consult the team of doctors on it,'' he said. 

Home Minister Lone said that the government would not spare anybody involved in any unlawful activity. ``We will take action as per law irrespective of their rank and file. There will be no concessions to anybody,'' he said. 



Asian Age, 7th April, 2000 

*Villagers identify 2 bodies in J&K grave *

By Yusuf Jameel 

Srinagar, April 6 - The worst fears of the relatives of the persons missing in south Kashmir proved correct when the exhumation of bodies, said by the security forces to be those of foreign mercenaries, turned out to be those of their kin. 

Roshan Jan, wife of Juma Khan, was the first - she said her husband was dead when she saw the chin and nose in the first grave, which on further digging revealed a mutilated body. Nazir Dalal, whose uncle Zahoor Ahmad Dalal was also among the missing, shouted in anger when he saw a shirt and sweater, which he said belonged to his uncle, in the same grave. 

A second grave was dug up at Chogamm where Ghulam Rasool Bhat, whose brother Bashir Ahmad Bhat was also missing, said it was his brother's body lying in the grave. The rest of the graves, spread over a radius of 2 to 3 km in the Pathribal area where the security forces had claimed to have killed five "foreign mercenaries" involved in the March 20 massacre of 35 Sikhs at Chattisinghpura,
will be dug up on Friday. 

Local villagers had already assembled at the grave sites when the exhumation process started at about 3 pm on Thursday, and were raising slogans against the security forces, demanding action against those responsible. 

The security forces had said that since those killed had been foreign mercenaries, their identities could not be established. They had claimed that the five men had been killed in a fierce encounter on March 25. 

This version was challenged by the local villagers, whose kin went missing and did not return. Their doubts were strengthened when the villagers of Pathribal told them that the Army had brought five men, put them into a hut and then blasted the hut with mortar fire at 6 am on March 25. 

After a series of protest marches across the Valley (the police opened fire on one procession on Monday, killing eight people), Jammu and Kashmir chief minister Farooq Abdullah ordered the exhumation of the bodies (though a court directive to the same effect had been issued almost a week ago). 

When a team of doctors, the Anantnag deputy commissioner of police, other senior police officials and state home minister Mushtaq Ahmad Lone reached the spot, they were told that the bodies were buried at three places - two each at Sangian and Chogamm, and one at Vuzukah. 

It was difficult for the officials to calm the angry relatives and villagers, who threatened to approach Amnesty International. The authorities present said the bodies could not be handed over as the matter was sub judice, and pointed out that DNA and RNA tests were needed to prove the exact identity of the dead. 



The Indian Express, Tuesday, April 10, 2001

*It&#8217;s official: five killed for Chittisinghpora were innocent, say J&K police*

Nazir Masoodi 

Pahalgam (Anantnag), April 9: The state government today announced that all the five men who were killed in an encounter with security forces at Panchalthan, four days after the massacre of 35 Sikhs at Chittisinghpora, were innocent. And released an ex gratia sum of Rs 1 lakh per victim to the next of kin.

The Army had claimed that these five people were militants responsible for the Chittisinghpora massacre and were killed in an encounter on March 25, 2000.

Today, G A Peer, Deputy Commissioner, Anantnag, said after that the Special Investigative Tem of the police&#8212;set up on orders from the court&#8212;had completed its probe and established that the &#8216;&#8216;five missing&#8217;&#8217; people were innocent. Based on that report, the administration sanctioned the relief, he said.

The bodies of these five were exhumed after massive protest demonstrations in the area. In fact, eight villagers were killed when police and CRPF fired on the protest march at Brakpora in early April last year. After exhumation, the relatives identified the bodies and claimed that the Army&#8217;s &#8216;&#8216;foreign militants&#8217;&#8217; were &#8216;&#8216;killed in a fake encounter.&#8217;&#8217;

However, Peer added that the DNA data was still pending and would arrive within the next 10 days. The Panchalthan encounter is pending before the court of the Chief Judicial Magistrate, Anantnag. The SIT, Peer said, would submit its report to the court in a week.


----------



## idune

*India: popular agitation against army atrocities engulfs the northeast state of Manipur*
By Kranti Kumara

15 September 2004

Since the middle of July, the small northeastern Indian state of Manipur has been convulsed by popular protests demanding the repeal of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA), an Indian law that grants extraordinary coercive powers to the armed forces. These powers include unrestricted and essentially unchallengeable authority to arrest and kill people in carrying out their duties.

Passed by parliament in 1958, the APSFA automatically comes into force when the Indian Union government designates a territory as a disturbed area. The state of Manipur was declared disturbed in 1980, and during the subsequent quarter century, Indian security forces have repeatedly committed human rights violations and brutal atrocities.

*Although the rage against the AFSPA and the Indian government as a whole has been simmering for many years, the latest bout of agitation was triggered by the vicious torture, rape and murder of a 32-year-old woman, Thangjam Manorama, following her arrest by a team of paramilitary Assam Rifles personnel. Around midnight on July 10, a group of Assam Rifles soldiers burst into the home of Manorama and dragged the sleeping victim to a veranda where they proceeded to beat her mercilessly in front of her family.*

The arrest was prompted by suspicion that Manorama belonged to the banned Peoples Liberation Army, a nationalist insurgent group that is seeking Manipurs secession from the Indian union. The violent methods utilised in apprehending this young lady are the standard modus operandi of the security personnel. Mere suspicion of belonging to a banned organisation is sufficient reason for security personnel to run rampant.

Union Home Minister Shivraj Patil was greeted with a 12-hour general strike on his arrival at the state capital Imphal on September 5. The strike was called by the coordinating committee Apunba Lup, which unites 32 womens, student and civic organisations, and succeeded in largely shutting down Imphal and surrounding areas.

Shortly after Manoramas murder, several women protested naked in front of the headquarters of the Assam Rifles holding up a banner displaying the words Indian Army, Rape Us. Another young lady named Irom Sharmila began a fast unto death in protest. She has been arrested and force-fed by the Indian authorities.

On August 15, the 57th anniversary of Indias independence from Britain, a 19-year-old student leader, Pebam Chittaranjan Mangang, burned himself to death to dramatise, and demand an end to, the suffering that the people of Manipur have endured under the AFSPA. On August 17, a general strike called by Apunba Lup, in response to Chittaranjans death, paralyzed Imphal.

The Indian ruling elite has reacted to this popular agitation with a mixture of bewilderment and confusion. The state Chief Minister, Congress leader Ibobi Singh, proposed that the AFSPA be lifted in Imphal. However, he has also denounced Apunba Lup as a front for extremists and ordered the arrest of several of its leaders. The Congress-led United Progressive Alliance central government recently did announce the lifting of the AFSPA in Manipurs capital. But it has also threatened to impose Presidents rule in Manipur, which would suspend the state legislature and government and place Manipur under the direct administration of the central government.

Elements of the Congress leadership in Manipur have denounced Ibobi Singh for conciliating the opposition in a patent attempt to destabilise his government. This could provide the requisite reason for the ruling Congress coalition government at the center to impose Presidents rule.

The Assam Rifles has refused to cooperate with an enquiry commissionset up, in response to the protests, by the state governmentto examine the circumstances surrounding the death of Manorama. The accused Assam Rifles personnel have repeatedly ignored orders to testify. So emboldened do they feel under the AFSPA that they accuse the state government of not having obtained the necessary permission from the central government to hold such an enquiry. They even petitioned the Gauhati

(capital of Assam) High Court to issue a stay order against the commission. Only after much wrangling were four soldiers who took part in the arrest compelled to appear before the commission.

Meanwhile, the military high command has strongly objected to the relaxing of the AFSPA in Manipur, claiming that it will weaken the fight against extremists. Chief of Army Staff N.C. Vij and other senior military officers are reported to have told the Home Minister that the order lifting the AFSPA in Imphal is compromising security. They also expressed concern that the governments concession to the anti-AFSPA agitation in Manipur could lead to similar movements elsewhere in the northeast and in the troubled state of Jammu and Kashmir. According to the Sept. 14 Hindu, Sources said that the Army officers who made the presentation to [Home Minister] Patil indicated they were simply forwarding their assessment of the situation and it should not be read as an ultimatum of any sort.

India: popular agitation against army atrocities engulfs the northeast state of Manipur


----------



## Spring Onion

*India: Army Killings Fuel Insurgency in Manipur *


*The Indian government should fully prosecute army, paramilitary, and police personnel responsible for killings and torture in the northeastern state of Manipur, Human Rights Watch said in a new report released today.*
Human rights violations by Indian security forces have fueled the armed opposition in Manipur. Armed groups have carried out torture, killings, indiscriminately used bombs and land mines, engaged in forced recruitment, and conducted widespread extortion.

*The 79-page report, 'These Fellows Must Be Eliminated': Relentless Violence and Impunity in Manipur, documents the failure of justice in the state, where for 50 years the army, empowered and protected by the Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act (AFSPA), has committed numerous serious human rights violations. 

Soldiers and police are protected by laws granting immunity and officials unwilling to hold them accountable for serious crimes, said Meenakshi Ganguly, senior researcher on South Asia at Human Rights Watch and author of the report. These laws perpetuate human rights abuses, which drive civilians to seek the protection of one or other armed group.*The report details the failure of justice in the killing and possible rape of alleged militant Thangjam Manorama Devi by the paramilitary Assam Rifles in 2004. Repeated attempts to identify and punish those responsible for her death have been stalled by the army, which has received protection under the immunity provisions of the AFSPA. 

The report documents specific cases of extrajudicial executions and torture by soldiers, paramilitaries, and police in Manipur since 2006, and the Indian governments failure to curb the abuses. Torture of detainees, in particular severe beatings during interrogations of suspected militants and their supporters, remains common. Torture victims described to Human Rights Watch how they were arbitrarily arrested, beaten, and subjected to electric shocks and simulated drowning (waterboarding). 

Extrajudicial killings often followed a consistent pattern in which the military or police took a person into custody, often in front of eyewitnesses, who was later declared to have been killed in an armed encounter with militants. Such faked encounter killings often occurred when security forces suspected someone to be a militant, but did not have enough evidence to ensure a conviction. On occasion, government officials or members of the armed forces would later admit to relatives that a person had been killed by mistake. This claim is never made officially, so in police records the victim remains identified as a militant, and avenues for redress remain closed. 

Security forces are bypassing the law and killing people on suspicion that they are militants instead of bringing them before a judge, said Ganguly. In the name of national security and armed forces morale, the state protects abusers and leaves Manipuris with no remedy to secure justice. 

Human Rights Watch called on Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to act on the findings of the committee he appointed to review the AFSPA in Manipur. Created after weeks of protests in Manipur following the killing of Manorama in 2004, the committee led by Justice B.P. Jeevan Reddy recommended in 2005 that the AFSPA be repealed. The Indian government has failed to take action on the committees recommendation. 

India has also ignored concerns and recommendations by United Nations human rights bodies calling for a review of the AFSPA. For example, in 1997 the UN Human Rights Committee said that the continued use of the AFSPA in Manipur was tantamount to using emergency powers and recommended that the application of these powers be monitored to ensure compliance with the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. In 2007, the Committee on the Elimination Racial Discrimination (CERD) called for India to repeal the AFSPA and to replace it by a more humane Act in accordance with the recommendation contained in the leaked Jeevan Reddy committee report. The Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW) in February 2007 urged India to provide information on the steps being taken to abolish or reform the AFSPA.

The Indian government has not only ignored the pleas of ordinary Manipuris and UN human rights bodies to repeal the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, but has even ignored the findings of its own committee, said Ganguly. This reflects the sort of callousness that breeds anger, hate and further violence.

In addition to repeal of the AFSPA, Human Rights Watch recommended that:


The government of India and the state government of Manipur should investigate and prosecute government officials, including members of the armed forces, police, and paramilitary responsible for human rights violations; 
The government of India should arrest and prosecute to the fullest extent of the law all those found responsible for the 2004 killing of Thangjam Manorama Devi; 
Armed groups in Manipur should publicly denounce abuses committed by any militant group and ensure that there is appropriate accountability for such abuses; and, 
Armed groups should immediately stop the abduction and recruitment of children into their forces.

Excerpts from selected cases in These Fellows Must Be Eliminated

In 2004, elderly Manipuri women staged an unprecedented protest over Manoramas killing by stripping off their clothes and raising a banner calling for the army to come rape them, too. One of the women, L. Gyaneshori, told Human Rights Watch:

Manoramas killing broke our hearts. We mothers were weeping, Now our daughters can be raped. They can be subjected to such cruelty. Every girl is at risk. We shed our clothes and stood before the army. We said, We mothers have come. Drink our blood. Eat our flesh. Maybe this way you can spare our daughters. But nothing has been done to punish those soldiers. The women of Manipur were disrobed by AFSPA. We are still naked.

Mohammad Abdul Hakim described the killing of his 15-year-old son, Razak Khan, on September 13, 2007 by a joint team of police and members of the 32nd Assam Rifles. Security forces had first come to their house asking for a man called Khajing, an alleged militant. Khan was asked to accompany the soldiers to a neighboring house. There, according to Hakim, his son was killed:

We were beaten and told to collect in the courtyard. Soldiers went inside to search the house. Suddenly, I heard my sons voice shouting, I am not Khajing! One of the neighbors later told me that he saw the soldiers push my son to the ground. He was crying. They shot him as he lay on the ground. We only heard the gunshots and then my son stopped shouting.

Elangbam Sanayaima was detained by members of the 21st Assam Rifles on November 29, 2007, and accused being a member of the separatist United National Liberation Front (UNLF). He was taken to an Assam Rifles camp. According to Sanayaima:

At the camp, I was blindfolded and my hands were tied behind my back. Then they started interrogating me. They insisted over and over again that I was Sanayaima of UNLF. They asked me about my training and my colleagues. When I said that I was innocent, they beat me. Then they pushed my head back until I was almost upside down. They poured water into my nose and mouth until I could not breathe.

India: Army Killings Fuel Insurgency in Manipur | Human Rights Watch


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## idune

*Indian Army And The Legacy Of Rape In Manipur*

By Shivali Tukdeo

24 October, 2004
Countercurrents.org


In the Indian narrative of progress and development, the North East has always remained in footnotes. While mainstream media rarely takes notice of the violence caused by Indian Army in the North East, recent outpour of extreme resentment at the military forces did shake both the media and the state as forty Manipuri women --twelve of them naked-- stormed the Army headquarters in Imphal, holding signs that read Indian Army, Rape Us! Thanglam Manoramas brutal murder by Army personnel was the source of anger for the protesters. Manoramas murder is far from being an exceptional case in Manipur where rape, abuse and murder are everyday realities. In their brave protest, Manipuri women 
shamed Indian army by parading the very female body that brought humiliation and death to their sisters. With their raw anger and amazing mobilization, these women refuse to get knocked down by the rape culturethat enables the victor to demoralize their victim. 

The human rights violations in Manipur are, in fact, sanctioned by the state in the form of the Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act, 1958, which gives enormous powers to security forces. AFSPA has been operative in Manipur for over four decades and has given unaccounted power to the security forces to search, arrest, detain or kill anyone on the basis of suspicion--of course all in the name of maintaining public order. The abuse of power by security forces has resulted in incidents of arbitrary detention, torture, rape and killing. 

The systematic misuse of AFSPA is discussed at great lengths by Amnesty International in the report Official sanction for killing in Manipur(1998): 

By conferring broadly defined powers to shoot to kill on the armed forces, this law has fostered a climate in which the agents of law enforcement use excessive force with impunity. A pattern of apparently unlawful killings of suspected members of armed opposition groups has resulted 
from the systemic use of lethal force as an alternative to arrest by the security forces. Civilians, including women and juveniles, have been among the victims of killing or wounding by security forces. 

As though special powers are not enough, the Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act goes on to provide the security forces protection from prosecution! The Committee on Human Rights has documented 55 selected incidents of arbitrary killings by security forces between 1980 and 1996 --none of the cases 
have been resolved till date. 

Invasion of womens bodies is another consequence of the privilege and power enjoyed by security forces in Manipur. Countless incidents of molestation and rape go unreported, while few women who do report do not get fair hearing. Miss Rose (1974), Neelam Panchabhaiy a (1986), Tamphasana (1990), 
Ahanjaobi Devi (1996) tried fighting legal battles against their rapists but all of these cases were dropped on the grounds of insufficient evidence. Amnesty International gives a disturbing account of the façade of justice in Manipur: 

Despite consistent allegations of widespread human rights violations in areas of the northeast of India where the Act is in operation, to Amnesty Internationals knowledge, no member of the security forces has been prosecuted for a human rights violation.

Besides the threat of violence, women in Manipur also have to contend with the threat of sexual abuse by the armed forces. Not to speak of the social stigma attached to rape that doubles up the sense of guilt and insecurity. 

Masculine military privilege and its visible aggression in Manipur can only be understood in terms of an ancient war tactic which uses rape as a tool to control and dehumanize the enemy. Given the misogyny of the state, we must start looking at spaces outside the state for solution of problems. As Manipuri women take their struggle to streets, they have become an inspiration to everyone suffering and fighting patriarchy. In struggle, together!

Indian Army And The Legacy Of Rape In Manipur By Shivali Tukdeo


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## brahmastra

One more proof of Indian brutality

before 



after

Reactions: Like Like:
5


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## glomex

brahmastra said:


> One more proof of Indian brutality
> 
> before
> 
> 
> 
> after



Ha...ha...ha...


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## idune

*Women Rage Against 'Rape' in Northeast India *

by Syed Zarir Hussain 

IMPHAL (Manipur), - After torching government buildings and parading naked to protest the suspected custodial rape and killing of a woman by federal soldiers, women in Manipur vow to intensify their fight against frequent atrocities in the restive northeast Indian state. 


http://img232.imageshack.us/i/071901.jpg/
_AP Photo_


An indefinite curfew is in force in Manipur, bordering Myanmar, to quell the uprising, with troops bursting teargas shells, water cannons and firing rubber bullets to disperse hundreds of women trying to break prohibitory orders. 


Naked women protestors shout slogans against the alleged rape, torture and murder of Thangjam Manorama by paramilitary soldiers in Imphal, capital of northeastern Indian state of Manipur, Thursday, July 15, 2004. In a highly unusual protest, some 40 women stripped naked and staged an angry demonstration outside the Assam Rifles base to protest the death in custody of 32-year old Manorama. (AP Photo/Str) 

At least 100 women were injured in police attacks since violence broke out Thursday, with some having to undergo surgeries to remove pellets embedded in their bodies. 

The action follows violent protests by women in Manipur after the bullet-riddled body of 32-year-old Thangjam Manorama was found on July 10. 

Witnesses say Manorama was picked up by soldiers of the paramilitary Assam Rifles from her home on alleged charges of links with separatist rebels. 

Hours later, her dead body was reportedly found four kilometers away from her home in the state capital Imphal, with multiple bullet wounds, besides torture signs. 

Several women's groups called a 48-hour general strike the day after Manorama's body was found, bringing normal life in the state to a grinding halt for two days until July 12. 

On Thursday, hundreds of women had stormed the Assam Rifles headquarters in Imphal, with at least 40 parading naked and holding placards that read: "Indian Army rape us" and "Indian Army takes our flesh." 

Authorities imposed an indefinite curfew fearing more protests. But women in hundreds started defying the curfew from Friday night by taking to the streets, prompting the police to resort to force to keep the protestors at bay. 

On Sunday, protestors torched at least half-a-dozen government buildings, making authorities cut short a curfew relaxation. 

"We want to punish the soldiers involved in the brutal killing of Manorama and so we are demanding handing over the errant soldiers to us," says Memchaoubi Devi, president of the women's rights group Porei Lemarol Meira Phaibi Apunba Manipur. 

She adds, "It is better to protest naked than allow the soldiers to kill and rape our women." 

A total of 32 women's groups have come under one platform to protest the killing. Women in Manipur are known for taking up cudgels against social issues. 

"This protest is not going to die down until and unless the guilty soldiers are punished. Even if someone is involved in militancy, he or she should be brought to the court of law and not just killed or raped," lashes out Leirik Devi, president of the Kangla Mei, another powerful women rights group. 

She vows, "We are prepared to shed blood but cannot allow the soldiers to outrage the modesty of our daughters. This protest will intensify." 

Bowing to mounting pressure, the Assam Rifles Saturday removed an unspecified number of soldiers from duty against whom there was a court of inquiry ordered to probe the alleged custodial death. 

Assures Assam Rifles spokesman Major SD Goswami, "Anybody found guilty would be punished." The state government has also ordered a probe following rising pressure from women's groups. 

But women's groups in the state have refused to call off their agitation even after the suspected soldiers were said to be taken off duty. 

Says Leirik Devi, "Until and unless we get a concrete assurance from the authorities that cases like rape or custodial killings will not recur, and stern action is taken against those errant soldiers, we are not going to stop our agitation." 

"We cannot stop atrocities committed on the women by security forces unless we resort to radical forms of protest like stripping in public." 

Manipur has witnessed an increase in excesses by armed forces on civilians and human rights violations in the name of curbing insurgency. 

Charges rights campaigner T Singh, "The number of cases of rights violations, torture and rape by security forces has increased manifold. The Special Powers Armed Forces Act prevalent here gives security forces unlimited powers and impunity against rights violations." 

"Our reports say there were at least 50 cases of third degree tortures on innocent civilians accused of aiding militancy in the past one year. At least a dozen custodial deaths were reported in the same period, while a number of cases have gone unreported." 

In October last year, 15-year-old Sanjita Devi committed suicide after being allegedly molested by army soldiers in Manipur. The army instituted a court of inquiry, but the findings were never made public. 

Says another women's leader, Sarojini Devi, "Such inquiries are nothing but a farce." 

There are over 19 separatist groups active in Manipur, bordering Myanmar, with demands ranging from secession to greater autonomy and the right self-determination. 

More than 10,000 people have lost their lives to insurgency in Manipur in the past two decades. Even the state government admits there were excesses committed by armed forces on the civilians. 

Manipur Chief Minister Okram Ibobi Singh, who is the elected head of the state, in a letter to Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh asked the federal government to "restrain and do the needful to check the conduct of security personnel" deployed in the state. 

But for now, Manipur is in turmoil with the women folk determined to intensify their protests. 

Women Rage Against 'Rape' in Northeast India


----------



## idune

*The Merciless Killing of Thangiam Manorama *
Manipur, India, July 23, 2004

Unlawful killings in Manipur, a tiny state in the northeast corner of India, are not unusual. Many residents of Manipur allege that under the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) of 1958, arbitrary detention, torture, rape and looting by security personnel is commonplace. They say that at least 18 unexplained deaths have occurred since April 5th of this year.

*The Armed Forces Special Powers Act*
Under Section 4 of the AFSPA, all security forces are given unrestricted and unaccounted power to carry out their operations, once an area is declared disturbed. Even a non-commissioned officer is granted the right to shoot to kill based on mere suspicion that it is necessary to do so in order to "maintain the public order". The AFSPA gives the armed forces wide powers to shoot, arrest and search, all in the name of "aiding civil power." The army can shoot to kill, the army can enter and search without a warrant, and the army can destroy property and arrest anyone it chooses -- without a warrant.

Under Section 5 of the AFSPA, once the military has arrested someone, they must hand that person over to the nearest police station with the "least possible delay." There is no definition in the act of what constitutes the least possible delay.

Under section 6 no legal proceeding can be brought against any member of the armed forces acting under the AFSPA, without the permission of the Central Government. 

According to the South Asia Human Rights Documentation Centre, there are several cases pending before the Indian Supreme Court, which challenge the constitutionality of the AFSPA. Some of these cases have been pending for over nine years. It is extremely surprising that the Delhi High Court found the AFSPA constitutional given the wording and application of the AFSPA. The people of Manipur say the AFSPA is unconstitutional and should be repealed by the judiciary or the legislature to end army rule in the northeast. 

It was under the AFSPA that an arrest memo was issued for Thangiam Manorama. At approximately 12:30 a.m. on July 11th several 17th Battalion of Assam Rifles personnel allegedly broke down the door of the 32-year-old womans home, dragged her out of bed, and physically assaulted her two younger brothers and her elderly mother when they tried to intervene.

Several personnel then dragged Manorama to a veranda where she was allegedly blindfolded, tied, tortured and brutally assaulted for hours.

Some personnel came back into the house from the veranda and took a towel and water container, allegedly using them to gag Manorama and pour water on her face while assaulting her. Later another Assam Rifle personnel came inside and took a kitchen knife. 

Before taking Manorama with them, the security personnel gave the arrest memo to the family and forced them to sign a No Claim Certificate. The document certified that no property was damaged and that the personnel had not misbehaved with women folk. (The family alleges that the 17th Assam Rifles personnel looted them of 5,000 rupees and some jewelry.) It should also be noted that the time written on the certificate was 3:30 a.m.  three full hours after the Assam Rifles arrived at Manoramas home.

The arrest memo stated that Manorama was arrested on the suspicion that she had links with the underground Peoples Liberation Army (PLA).

The security personnel told Manoramas family that she was being taken to Kangla, the fort where the Assam Rifles are stationed. 

But Manorama never made it to the Kangla fort. Her partially clothed body was found dumped on the side of a road later that day. 

The villagers who found Manoramas body said that there were scratch marks from fingers all over her body, a deep gashing knife wound on her right thigh, signs of bruises on her breasts, deep cut marks on her inner thighs, and genitals, and several bullet wounds.

The autopsy of Manoramas body was conducted at the Regional Institute of Medial Sciences Hospital (RIMS) after the Irilbung police picked up her body. The autopsy was performed before family members were able to identify the body and the results of the report were not released to the public.

The bereaved family members have refused to take back Manoramas body, stating that as a murder, an inquiry should be conducted.

For the people of the city of Imphal, this was the last straw. 

Merely punishing the men involved in the killing of Manorama will not pacify the people they say. They are demanding the complete revocation of the AFSPA so that the excesses of the security personnel can be put to a final stop.

*A desperate protest*
Venting their bottled up rage, and despite the humiliation of their act, prominent women in the community protested by disrobing in front of the Assam Rifles Headquarters. They shouted, rape us, kill us, take our flesh while attempting to break open the AR headquarters gate. 

Immediately following, an indefinite curfew was imposed in Imphal and the surrounding area, although there has been no let up in the protests. In spite of the curfew, sit-in protests and mass rallies continue in Manipur.

Outraged, members of various organizations submitted a memorandum to the Chief Minister O Ibobi, who has admitted that there has been no improvement in law and order since the AFSPA was imposed in 1980. He added that the government is looking into the feasibility of revoking the Act.

In the meantime the State Government has decided to institute a Judiciary Inquiry into the alleged custodial killing of Thangiam Manorama by the 17th Assam Rifles personnel. The decision was made during a high level meeting convened by the Chief Minister.

The 17th Assam Rifles ultimately released a statement claiming that Manorama was a self styled corporal of the underground PLA and was killed while attempting to escape. 

There were sharp reactions to this statement by several womens organizations saying that the 17th Assam Rifles were trying to somehow justify the brutal killing. Even if Manorama was a separatist member, the army should not possess such unchallengeable powers. They also refuted the charges leveled by Assam Rifles authorities against Manorama. 

Y Ibeni, the president of the womens organization, All Manipur Nupi Marup, said that a team of women will leave for New Delhi this week to highlight the atrocities of the Assam Rifles personnel. In a no nonsense tone, Ibeni also requested that the Chief Minister should make public the autopsy report due to the grave suspicions over the manner of the death of Manorama. Strongly condemning the killing, Ibeni said that even in times of
war women are not subjected to such excesses. 

Ibeni also said that dumping Manoramas body on a roadside showed the audacity of the security personnel. Ibeni also questioned why there were no women personnel present when Manorama was picked up by the AR men adding that the law does not allow a woman to be picked up after sun set. 

The Committee Against the Brutal Killing of Th Manorama Devi By 17 AR" has clarified that Manorama was an innocent civilian who did not have any sort of connection with any of the underground organizations operating in the State. According to some of the residents living in Bamon Kampu,allegations leveled against Manorama by the Assam Rifles authorities was nothing but an attempt to hoodwink the public and cover up their inhuman deeds. The residents also feel that the AR authorities' attempt to pacify the public by terming the victim as a hardcore PLA cadre have backfired and has resulted only in adding fuel to the bottled up rage and anger of the people."

Promises made by Union Minister of State for Home
Making a specific commitment, Union Minister of State for Home, Sriprakash Jaiswal, promised to vacate the historic Kangla fort by December 31, 2004. The Kangla fort was the seat of power for Manipur kings until it was lost to the British in 1892. The fort has been with the Indian army since Independence and has been a bone of contention. Should the promise be kept, Manorama's death will mark a turning point in the history of Manipur. 

The other promises included a review of the AFSPA. Jaiswal specifically stated that in the future the army would use women personnel whenever an action is initiated against a female suspect. The state police will also be involved.

Despite the promises made, most in Manipur feel that this is just another stunt to quell the ongoing public protest demanding the removal of the AFSPA. 

*Restricted Area Permit (RAP)*
Most of the people of Manipur want a complete review of the RAP as well.

Currently no non-Indian citizen can enter the northeast area without a special visa. 

All foreigners need a special permit called the RAP to enter the region -- valid for 14 days from the day the visa is stamped, and usually valid for only 3 days in Imphal. 

This permit also applies to Indians who have changed their nationality.

It is the belief of the residents of Manipur that this visa restriction was set up so that western journalists cant see what is taking place in this isolated region. The residents also say that not even Kashmir has such strict restrictions. They believe this is due to the northeast regions lack of political voice given their small population within India.

Without access to the area by the western countries, they believe that human rights violations will continue to go unnoticed and unreported.

The citizens of Manipur firmly believe that both the RAP and the AFSPA is what gives the Indian government and its army unrestricted powers to continue committing blatant atrocities. They also say that the government can argue that they need the AFSPA to continue fighting the separatists but they can have no good argument to justify the restriction of foreigners to the region. They also say that the RAP denies the region from enjoying lucrative foreign tourism money.

Lack of information about the incident in the Indian press
While there is nothing in writing, it is understood that journalists in Manipur must be very cautious about what they report because of the unchallengeable power of the AFSPA. 

But many in Manipur do not understand the apathy shown by the Indian national news providers, by ignoring the whole incident and making no mention of the current crisis. They are deeply hurt and frustrated by the fact that newspapers and media of their own country choose not to give any coverage to the events taking place in Manipur. They say that time and again the Indian press has failed in their responsibility to highlight the plight of the innocent people of Manipur against the brutality unleashed by the Indian Army.

What will happen in the future to correct these injustices is uncertain. 

The alleged torture and extra judicial killing of Thangiam Manorama and various other central and critical issues pertaining to the state were
discussed at the 22nd session of the United Nations Working Group on Indigenous Population at Palais des Nations, Geneva, Switzerland.

Presently, police are on the streets of Imphal firing tear gas shells and rubber bullets, destroying property and injuring women and young protesters.

Perhaps the brutal ending of Thangiam Manoramas short life will be a new beginning for Manipur and its proud people. And if this is so, then perhaps Manoramas merciless killing will have some meaning after all. 



The Merciless Killing of Thangiam Manorama - Worldpress.org


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## Spring Onion

Atrocities committed by Indian forces in kashmir


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## Spring Onion

Indian soldiers are brutally beating young boys in a sports stadium


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## Spring Onion

*
Some of the Atrocities by Indian Goverment against Sikhs*

Given below are some of the methods of torture, humiliation and atrocities used by Indian Government against the Sikhs (These have been mentioned by the Humanitarian Organisations and Amnesty International) : 
- To interrogate the Sikhs, a round log of wood is placed on their legs, and after putting heavy weight on the log it is rotated on the legs. 
- Chilly powder is sprinkled in the eyes and sex organs of the Sikhs. 
- Sikhs are hung upside down from the ceilings till they became unconscious. 
- The body joints are battered. 
- Electric shocks are administered to the genitals making most of the youth impotent 
- Sikh women, during interrogation, are hurt in their sex organs. ****** abuse is showered on them. 
- Violence is inflicted on the parents in presence of their sons and daughters and vice-versa. 
- Brothers are forced to beat sisters and vice versa. violence is inflicted on adult girls after stripping them naked and their sex organs are damaged. They are sexually assaulted, pregnancies are terminated of the expectant females. 
- Crotchets are pulled apart. 
- The victims of inhuman violence are made to sit naked in winter, and under the sun in summer, kept sleepless for days in solitary cells. 
- Sikhs are subjected to severe beatings and ****** abuse in the presence of their village folks. 
- Dead bodies of Sikhs killed in fake encounters are not handed over to their parents to conceal marks of excessive violence 
- The state manipulates tailored post mortem reports from the doctors, and burns the dead bodies of the Sikhs after falsely declaring them unclaimed. 
- All sorts of excesses are made on the parents of underground Sikh youths. 
- Indiscriminant atrocities are committed on the parents of the underground youth of the area where some militant action takes place. 
- Atrocities are committed without caring for one's age, health, life or death. If some one luckily survives such brutal excesses, it is well and good But if one dies while under "interrogation", then such a dead body is taken out, pierced with some bullets, and a news item is sent that a dreaded terrorist has been shot dead in an encounter 
- Houses of underground Sikh youths are demolished, their belongings are looted, crops destroyed, their tube well motors are taken away, and they are prevented from sowing crops. 
- Even animals of the families of underground Sikh youth are subjected to police anger. After summoning the families to the police station, villagers are told not to take care of the animals of the families of the underground youth. Generally the animals starve to death. 
- False cases are registered against innocent sikh youths, later they are let off taking fat bribes. 
- Reporters giving true reports are arrested, an undeclared censorship is imposed on them to stop them from exposing police atrocities. 
- Peaceful protests by the Human rights organizations are prohibited. 
- Press is used to launch vicious and false propaganda against the Sikhs. 
- Hardened criminals are inducted into Sikh movement to help in arresting the Sikh revolutionaries and sabotage the movement. Such criminals are inducted to tarnish the fair name of the Sikh revolutionaries are now called the "Black Cats" in the Punjab. Under SSP Izhar Alam, such criminal gangs were named the "Alam Sena." Besides, such police sponsored bands of criminals also operated under the name of Panthic Tiger Force and "Red Brigade." The director general of the police himself admitted about the "Black Cats" bands. In his interview to the India Today on Sept. 15, 188, KPS Gill had announced without an iota of shame that the security forces in Punjab cannot do anything without the help of secret bands (Black Cats). 
- Thousands of innocent pilgrims, children, females, aged people, who got encircled in the Golden Temple during operation Bluestar were made to die through starvation and thirst. The whole of Punjab was converted into a vast jail by clamping curfew on the entire area. The army bulletin branded all Amritdhaaree's as terrorists. 
- Indian army desecrated the Gurdwaras and committed such atrocities on the Sikhs that even the soul of Ahmed Shah Abdali might have felt ashamed of. 
- The targets of army guns were none else but religious persons, devotees, pilgrims, ladies, old people, children or some militants whom the indian government deemed as terrorists. 
- No neutral observer was allowed to take stock of the situation. 
- The injured during the attack on the Golden Temple were subjected to extreme partiality. Whereas every assistance and facility was made available to the injured army personnel, there was no such provision for the wounded belonging to the other side. 
- The number of prisoners taken was rather small. There is ample scope for doubt that the Indian army had thought it better to eliminate the thousands of people seized in the Golden Temple instead of taking them prisoners or having to provide them with medical assistance. 
- No need was felt to perform religious rites for the dead pilgrims and devotees. 
- Before consigning the dead bodies to flames, no effort was made to identify them. No relatives were informed. 
- No dead bodies were handed over to the next of kin. In such a situation only the dead or those wishing to be dead could be present at the last rites. 
- All dead bodies were placed in heaps and then con- signed to flames. IT was never insured that among the dead there could also be some Muslim devotees. To cremate is against the tenets of Islam. 
- No need was felt to give a list of the dead to the Red Cross or any other International Agency 
- Despite such atrocities, no commission was appointed to go into this dark episode. Even the Britishers, the foreign rulers, had cared to appoint the Hunter commission to inquire into the Jallianwalla Massacre which was of a much less magnitude on the other hand. The Indian government, on the other hand, took all steps to hide the excesses of the army.

INJUSTICE IS THE ACCEPTED NORM

SikhLionz.com: Atrocities by the Indian State against Sikhs


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## Spring Onion

Kashmir burning 

Kashmir Speaks In Pictures 

Kashmir Speaks In Pictures: Atrocities of the Indian Army


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## Spring Onion

*The "Iron Lady in Manipuri": Indian Girl On Six-Year Hunger Strike Protests Against Indian Army Atrocities*


*Far away from New Delhi, beyond the heart of mainstream India, forgotten in the eastern corner of the country, close to the Burmese border, lies a troubled Himalayan province with a population of around 2.2 million people, less than even Delhi. No, we are not talking about Kashmir. This is a tragedy in the remote Indian state of Manipur*.

*The Short Story of Manipur*

Manipur, formerly ruled by a Raja, has been a problem state since the time it was annexed to India in 1949. Insurgents have often resorted to violence (terrorism for rest of the Indians) to demand secession from the world's biggest democracy. 

In 1958, Indian government introduced a special law  The Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act (AFSPA)  that granted special powers to the Indian armed forces to arrest, detain, interrogate or even kill any person on mere suspicion. This act, operational in the volatile hotspot Jammu and Kashmir, has also been in force in Manipur for 26 years now.

While the Indian government maintains the law is necessary to restore normality in a border-state racked by a militant secessionist movement, civil society groups allege gross human rights violations by the army. 

On November 2, 2000, a tragedy took place when the Indian army killed ten innocent civilians at Malon, near Imphal - Manipur's capital. The incident jolted a 28-year-old budding Manipuri poet, Ms. Irom Sharmila Chanu, who resolved to sit for a hunger strike until the controversial law was completely scrapped. However, she was imprisoned on charges of 'attempted suicide' and was kept in a secured ward at Jawaharlal Nehru Hospital in Imphal for more than half a decade where she survived by forced nasal feeding.

On October 3, 2006, the local court at Imphal ordered her release, following which she flew to Delhi. 

Ms. Sharmila is presently holding a fast-unto-death at Jantar Mantar - a Delhi landmark, lying close to the nation's parliament, where people from different parts of the country come to stage demonstrations. The term 'Jantar Mantar' is the Hindi language equivalent of the magical charm abracadabra; it is to Delhi what Tiananmen Square is to Beijing.

Here are some of the images taken in the late evening of October 5, 2006. Do not be dazzled by the bright lights. The effect was due to the excellent flashlight of this reporter's camera. The place was actually unlit and felt gloomy in darkness.

A Lonely Crusade



Ms.Sharmila, enclosed within a mosquito net, was lying hidden under the blue blanket. She was being cared for by a volunteer, a young student, whose duties would later be taken over by other volunteers during the course of the night. Interestingly, the first thing Ms. Sharmila did on arriving in Delhi was to visit the memorial of Mahatma Gandhi, the man who had introduced the concept of keeping fasts as a means of peaceful protest. 

Ms. Sharmila says, "My fast is on behalf of the people of Manipur. This is not a personal battle - this is symbolic. It is a symbol of truth, love and peace."

A Manipuri Student Questions His Fellow Indians



Mr. Sanaban Gunajit, 27, is a student from Manipur and had come to Jantar Mantar since he identifies with the cause. He described himself as an Indian but wondered why India does not consider him an Indian. He asked why his own country's armed forces exercise unrestrained power and inflict brutalities on his people in Manipur. Mr. Gunajit pointed out that most of the victims of the army's atrocities happen to be those who have nothing to do with the insurgent groups.

Will She Die?



Ms. Sharmila will complete six years of fasting without food or water later this year. In custody, she was fed a cocktail of vitamins, minerals, laxatives, protein supplements and lentil soup through the nose with a rubber pipe. The Indian government does not want her to die for fear of creating a heroic martyr. Meanwhile, according to doctors, Ms. Sharmila's fasting is now having a direct impact on her body's normal functioning. Her bones have become brittle while the body has developed various other complications.


None After All



A lady dressed in an ethnic Manipuri costume anxiously glances at Ms. Sharmila. Most of the visitors who were present during the duration of this reporter's visit hailed from her home state. Ms. Sharmila is fondly referred to as Nura Tensingnabi - Iron Lady in Manipuri - by her admirers.

Sacrifices for a Cause



In the state of Manipur, women have always been at the forefront of political and social movements. Ms. Sharmila must be seen as a result of that trend. In an interview to BBC, her brother Mr. Singhajit Singh had noted that she has sacrificed "what could have been the best years of her young life".

Repeal the Act



These posters displaying Ms. Sharmila's picture, taken when she was under arrest, also carry a list of some of the victims of arbitrary killing carried out by the Indian Army. One of the dead included the six-month-old Rajenlung who was killed in 2005. 

A Concluding Note

It is understandable that many Indians, too sensitive about the sacredness of their venerable national institutions, will be outraged by such serious allegations being leveled against the Indian Army. However, it is a duty for all those Indians, who deeply care about their nation, to patiently and carefully listen to what people like Ms. Sharmila have to say and follow it up by making amends if the allegations are found to be true.

Also, readers must appreciate the greatness of this country when it so freely allows its angry citizens to register their protest right in the heart of the national capital. 


The "Iron Lady in Manipuri": Indian Girl On Six-Year Hunger Strike Protests Against Indian Army Atrocities - Page 3 - Blogcritics Politics


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## EjazR

Ramadan drummers return as Kashmir insurgency wanes | Entertainment | Reuters

By Sheikh Mushtaq

SRINAGAR (Reuters) - As soldiers watch from a distance, men beating drums walk the pre-dawn streets of troubled Kashmir to wake up Muslims to eat sohour, the last meal before starting a day of Ramadan fasting.

A centuries old Muslim ritual of human alarm clocks beating drums and bells in the pitch-dark hours of Islam's holiest month has returned to the strife-torn region.

With a decline in rebel violence the men, known as Sehar Khans, are among the few who venture out at night in Kashmir, where night-time walkers run the risk of getting shot by nervous troops. Sehar means "dawn" in Kashmiri.

"I started the job this year, because I do believe that security has improved a lot," 55-year-old drummer Abdul Khaliq Bhat told Reuters.

"I am doing it for Allah and, of course, for some additional money for Eid celebrations," Bhat added, before starting to beat drums through a dark lane in Srinagar, Kashmir's summer capital, which is dotted with security check posts and police bunkers.

"Wakhta-e-Sehar (time to get up)," he shouts, as people wake up and turn on lights in their homes.

Ramadan culminates in the Eid al-Fitr festival when people go to mosques for prayers and visit friends and family to exchange gifts and greetings.

That is also when people tip the drummers for the service they have provided during the fasting month.

Most of the human alarm clocks are poor but some faithful do the job to earn sawab, or heavenly reward, during the sacred month.

"The militancy has disappeared now, that is why I decided to resume this sacred family job. It gives us satisfaction and this is a way you can earn more sawab," said another drummer, Mohammad Rafiq.

Simmering opposition to New Delhi's rule in Jammu and Kashmir, India's only Muslim-majority state, erupted into a violent revolt by Islamist militants in 1989. More than 47,000 people have been killed.

But a slow-moving peace process between India and Pakistan, which both claim the scenic Himalayan region in full but rule it in parts, has eased tension.

Now, as night falls, Srinagar no longer shuts down. Shops and restaurants which used to pull down the shutters before sunset stay open until late in the evening.

"It's an amazing feeling, the return of the Sehar Khan is definitely a harbinger of permanent peace," Kahlida Begum, a 60-year-old housewife said.

"Allah will answer our prayers."

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## Awesome

Why would the Kashmiri separatists harm people from fasting?

This is like a freebie score that India wants to claim


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## glomex

Asim Aquil said:


> Why would the Kashmiri separatists harm people from fasting?
> 
> This is like a freebie score that India wants to claim



Yup thats why multiple Infiltration attempts are being made across LOC and Terrorists are being killed by India Army....They Killed 5 Terrorists trying to infiltrate this morning.

No wonder ...Indian claims of peace are false....


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

duhastmish said:


> i tell you give them peace for 2 years give them development like whole india is getting - state will go up like no tomaroww- we have tourism, sports man , land which gives you gold in harvesting, educated people .
> 
> then ask them what do they want ??????
> 
> these jihadi are not letting that happen - and india and pakistan politics is just takign kashmir as an issue not a people's mother land.
> 
> we kashmiri just want peace and prosperity.


If India would officially declare that she would allow the people of J&K (all of it) to decide their destiny via an independently conducted referendum provided there is peace for X number of years, you would probably get a lot more support from the Kashmiris and Pakistan.

As it is, the Indian government in contravention of the UNSC resolutions and global opinion on the status of Kashmir, insists that it is part of India and the status quo must remain.


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## toxic_pus

^^ Jana you are forgetting East Pakistan, Balochistan etc. 

Isn't there something that a person in a glass house shouldn't do with a stone? I keep forgetting what that is.


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## idune

*HRW Documents Repression In Kashmir*
By Parwini Zora & Daniel Woreck

01 December 2006
World Socialist Web

*A recent report by the US-based Human Rights Watch (HRW) documents the systematic human rights abuses carried out by the Indian security forces in the state of Jammu and Kashmir with the protection of the Indian government and legal system.*

HRW conducted research for the report, entitled Everyone Lives in Fear: Patterns of Impunity in Jammu and Kashmir, from 2004 to February 2006 in Indian-controlled Kashmir. It was the first time since 1989 that the Indian government had allowed an international human rights body to visit and report on the state. HRW also conducted research in Pakistani-controlled Kashmir in 2005 and 2006.

The report provides detailed accounts and interviews implicating the Indian security forces in torture, disappearances, arbitrary detentions and summary executions, which are concealed as encounter killings.

The report stressed that the estimated 700,000 Indian soldiers and paramilitaries in Kashmir carry out widespread repression with impunity. Indian laws protect members of the armed forces and civilian officials involved in crimes against Kashmiris. Soldiers responsible for murders and torture are rarely investigated or held accountable for their crimes.

The Asian director of Human Rights Watch, Brad Adams, told the press in September: Human rights abuses have been a cause as well as a consequence of the insurgency in Kashmir.... Kashmiris continue to live in constant fear because perpetrators of abuses are not punished. Unless the Indian authorities address the human rights crisis in Jammu and Kashmir, a political settlement of the conflict will remain illusory.

The report also covers in significant detail the massacres, bombings and political killings committed by various armed groups opposed to Indian rule of Kashmir. While HRW equates the violence of the Indian military and that of the militants, the outbreak of the armed conflict in the late 1980s resulted from decades of oppressive, anti-democratic Indian rule of the majority Muslim state.

The continuing conflict in Kashmir underlines the inherently reactionary character of the 1947 partition of British India into the current Muslim Pakistan and a Hindu-dominated India. The division of the subcontinent along artificial boundaries that cut across national, ethnic and language groupings laid the groundwork for future conflicts and wars that resulted in some 2 million deaths, turned millions more into refugees and divided the Kashmiri region into Indian and Pakistani-held areas.

Subsequently, successive Indian governments have proved incapable of meeting the aspirations of the Kashmiri Muslims for genuine democratic rights and decent living standards. Seeking to ensure Indian domination over Kashmir, the Indian elite rescinded an agreement to give more autonomy to the state. Kashmiris began to take up arms in the late 1980s after the Indian government blatantly rigged state elections in Jammu and Kashmir

Since 1989, at least 20,000 Kashmiri civilians have been killed as a result of the armed conflict and tens of thousands more have been injured according to the HRW report. About 300,000 Hindu Kashmiris have been internally displaced and another 30,000 Muslim Kashmiris have fled to neighbouring Pakistan as refugees.

The report cited evidence of summary killings of suspected militants. Police and army officials told HRW that detained suspects were often executed rather than being brought to jail, on the grounds that keeping hardcore militants in gaol is a security risk. The deaths were often falsely recorded as the result of encounter killings. One example was the case of five men shot supposedly in an armed encounter. While the army and police claimed the men were responsible for the massacre of 36 Kashmiri Sikhs in 2000, forensic tests later showed the men to be innocent local villagers.

Indian security forces have extensive powers under the Jammu and Kashmir Disturbed Areas Act and the Armed Forces (Jammu and Kashmir) Special Powers Act to use lethal force against anyone who is acting in contravention of any law or order for the time being in force in the disturbed area. The report cited an incident on February 23, 2006 in which soldiers in Handawara shot at a group of people playing cricket because they suspected that a Kashmiri separatist was among them. Four boys, including an eight-year-old, were killed.

Kashmiri human rights defenders estimate that over 8,000 Kashmiris have simply disappeared since 1989. Most were last seen in the custody of Indian troops, who in turn denied holding the person. Many were tortured and then executed.

One case involved Manzoor Ahmed Mir, a 37-year-old state employee. A group of soldiers accompanied by three masked men took him away on September 12, 2004. Manzoors brother recognised the men as a police sub-inspector, with whom Manzoor had quarrelled, and the sub-inspectors two sons. Manzoors family filed a habeas corpus petition in the Srinigar High Court but by February 2006 the police and army had not responded.

The HRW report stated that thousands of Kashmiris have been arbitrarily and illegally detained. One of Indias Additional Advocate Generals recently stated there were 4,500 suspected militants awaiting trial in jail. Many have been held for 10 years or more without being brought before a court. Indian authorities often detain Kashmiris under the Jammu and Kashmir Public Safety Act, which allows for detention without trial for up to two years, because they have no evidence of guilt.

Many people have been detained beyond two years by simply rolling over preventative detention orders. Amnesty International reported on the case of Farooq Ahmad Dar, who was detained in November last year under his ninth consecutive PSA order. He has been in continuous detention since 1991.

Based on information from Mian Abdul Qayoom, president of the Jammu and Kashmir High Court Bar Association, HRW reported that individuals had filed at least 60,000 habeas corpus petitions since 1990 to contest detentions or disappearances. However, according to HRW, there are few, if any, cases in which officials have been held responsible for failing to respond in a timely manner to a court order in a habeas corpus case or for failing to release a detainee pursuant to a court order in Jammu and Kashmir.

Those in state custody are commonly tortured. Relatives of militants are also taken into custody and tortured, either to discover the whereabouts of a suspect, or as a way of forcing the militant to surrender, the report stated. The brother of a wanted Kashmiri told HRW that Indian forces had beaten him and given him electric shocks while in custody to try to force his brother to surrender. The torture only stopped when soldiers killed his brother.


Legal immunity

Most cases of serious human rights abuse in the Jammu and Kashmir region are not officially investigated. In the rare instances where abuses are probed, there has not been a single individual in the Indian army, paramilitary or the police convicted of a criminal offence. In fact, since 1989 only 134 army personnel, 79 members of the Border Security Force and 60 policemen have been subjected to disciplinary action.

There is no civilian control over the proceedings of the military justice system. In addition, the provisions of the Criminal Procedure Code of 1973 protect any member of the armed forces from arrest for anything done or purported to be done by him in the discharge of his official duties except after obtaining the consent of the central government.

Section 197(2) of the Criminal Procedure Code is a sweeping immunity provision that applies throughout India. In the words of the HRW report, this code makes it mandatory for a prosecutor to obtain permission from the federal government to initiate criminal proceedings against public servants, including armed forces personnel. According to Amnesty International, the Jammu and Kashmir government had made almost 300 requests for permission to prosecute last year, but none were granted.

Security forces have used the Jammu and Kashmir Disturbed Areas Act and the Armed Forces (Jammu and Kashmir) Special Powers Act to justify firing indiscriminately on peaceful demonstrations, including protests in January and October 1990 in Srinagar and in 1993 in Beijbehara.

The HRW report is one more account of the widespread and sustained use of repression for over a decade in Jammu and Kashmir. There is no reason to believe that the current Congress-led government in New Delhi will take any more notice of its recommendations than any of the previous calls for justice.

The report underscores the fact that in India, which is commonly referred to as the worlds largest democracy, the systematic abuse of basic democratic rights is widespread.

HRW Documents Repression In Kashmir By Parwini Zora & Daniel Woreck


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## glomex

@toxic_pus... the lady is trying to help...our Bangladeshi friend....to prove that India is worse of Than Bangladesh......But a similar thread on Bangladesh has been Closed...but this thread still lives....I wonder if this is anti India Bias at work here.....

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## Spring Onion

glomex said:


> @toxic_pus... the lady is trying to help...our Bangladeshi friend....to prove that India is worse of Than Bangladesh......But a similar thread on Bangladesh has been Closed...but this thread still lives....I wonder if this is anti India Bias at work here.....



A similar thread on India is also closed down so your statment is not true.


Both threads on India and BD by the members of the respective countries have been closed so the mods and admins have done a fair thing.

No discrimination.


Kashmir is a reality please wake up.

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## idune

*A bloody account of mass massacres*

A brief chronological account of mass massacres in Kashmir that this area has witnessed and its people have suffered since 1931

The Dogra rule, followed by Indian occupation in 1947, is a bleak chapter in the history of Jammu and Kashmir. The Dogra rule, which continued from 1846-1947, is considered as the gloomiest period. Indian armed forces occupied a major part of Jammu and Kashmir on October 27, 1947 that is continuing to date. 
The Indian troops pursued the policy of suppression in a systematic manner to reduce the overwhelming Muslim majority in occupied Jammu and Kashmir. To achieve this objective Indian troops started the process of mass massacre. There are plenty of events and evidences to support this gory fact.

1931
July 13:The people of Kashmir had been raising their voice against the Dogra usurpation of their land and as a result they faced brutal consequences. On July 13, 1931, a large number of Kashmiris gathered in front of the Srinagar central jail, at a time when the trial of a youth Abdul Qadeer accused of involvement in a case of agitation, was in progress inside the jail. The objective was to demonstrate solidarity with the young man. As the time for obligatory prayer approached a young Kashmiri stood for Azan (Call for the prayer) and the Dogra police opened fire on him, and he got martyred. Thereby, another youth took the place of the martyred young man and started the Azan. He too was shot dead. In this way 22 Kashmiris embraced martyrdom in their efforts to complete the Azan.

1947
August 26: In June 1947, people of Poonch had launched a no-tax campaign against the heavy taxation of Maharaja. To curb the agitation, Maharaja Hari Singh, the last Dogra ruler of the state, ordered the use of brute military force. On August 26 the protesters were confronted by the Dogra-armed forces. The Dogra troops opened bran-gun fire on the huge crowd of 5,000 civilians, martyring and wounding hundreds of them. 

October-November: Maharaja Hari Singh fled from Srinagar to Jammu on October 26th 1947, as the liberation activists were poised in Srinagar's suburbs to capture the city. On reaching Jammu, he issued orders to his troops and police besides the Hindu extremist groups, to kill Muslims found anywhere. The Muslims were asked to assemble in parade ground in Jammu so that they would be driven to Pakistan in lorries. While on their way, on October 20, 1947, eight thousand Muslims were massacred at Malatank Jammu. On October 22, 1947 at least 14000 Muslims were massacred at Saniya Jammu and 15,000 Muslims were gunned down near the bridge at Akhnoor.

On November 5 and 6, 1947, more than 100 lories, loaded with women, children and old men were taken into the wilderness of Kuthua forests. Hindu extremists and armed gangs were let loose on these innocent people and an unparallel butchery was perpetrated, killing thousands of them. Women were raped, molested and their valuables looted. All these bloodsheds were taking place in full view of the Indian army, which had by that time occupied a major part of the state. In another act of butchery, a large gathering of 25000 Muslims, in Miran Sahib and Ranbir Singhpora, were machine-gunned.

During migration to Pakistan in 1947, nearly 300,000 people were massacred in cold 
British daily "the London Times" wrote on October 10, 1947 in a report from its special correspondent in India that the Maharaja, under his own supervision, got assassinated 237,000 Muslims, using military forces in Jammu area. The editor of "Statesman" Ian Stephen, in his book "Horned Moon" wrote that till the end of autumn 1947, more than 200,000 Muslims were assassinated.

Right from 1947, the fury of mass killings is going on unabated. Kashmiris suffered massacres in 1965 and 1971. Since 1989, India increased its acts of brutalities and people were killed in mass groups. Some of the savage events are as under.

1990
January 8:Firing at various places in Srinagar city, 17 people were killed. Enquiry ordered by then Governor Jagmohan. No outcome appeared. 
January 15: In Handwara town, the Indian army and paramilitary forces shot dead 17 unarmed civilians including one woman when troops opened unprovoked fire on peaceful protesters. 

January 21: 55 innocent civilians were killed in the localities of Basantbagh and Gawkadal in Srinagar city by CRPF troops when more than 20,000 people took to the streets, defying curfew.

January 22: The Indian army and paramilitary forces resorted to unprovoked firing at Alamghari Bazar Srinagar and killed many unarmed civilians. The people had come out unarmed to protest against the military killings at Gaw Kadal in Srinagar. 
January 25: 26 civilians were shot dead in Handwara town of Kupwara district. The township was set afire by BSF after the latter was panicked by a bang. Some of the slain persons including women were roasted alive. 

March 1: In order to halt massive demonstrations by the people, who were to submit a memorandum to United Nations Military Observers Group on India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP), Indian army opened fire at Tengpora bypass and Zakoora crossing in Srinagar, killing 21 and 26 demonstrators, respectively.

May 21: Seventy persons were put to death by CRPF troops near Islamia College Srinagar. The unarmed civilian mourners were carrying the dead body of late Mirwaiz Molvi Muhammad Farooq, prominent liberation leader and father of APHC chairman, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq. More than three hundred people were injured. Five women, one of them pregnant, were killed. Even minors were not spared. The forces did not spare even the coffin-bearers. The dead body of late Mirwaiz was also shot at. 

August 6: The troops besieged Mashali Mohalla in Srinagar, raided the houses of local inhabitants and killed innocent civilians. In this incident more than two-dozen people were brutalized, of whom nine died on the spot. 

August 10: BSF cordoned off the whole area of Pazipora, Kupwara. The male inmates were ordered to gather in a park for identification parade. The locals objected to let ladies stay at their homes without being accompanied by any male members. Later the forces, in absence of male members, entered the houses and raped and molested a number of ladies. By hue and cry of the ladies, the male members tried to rush to their respective homes in order to rescue the ladies from the clutches of the armed forces. But the troops fired on the unarmed civilians of the locality and killed 25 of them on the spot. 

September 11: A civil passenger bus, carrying about fifty persons, was intercepted by the BSF troops. Passengers were fired upon. 22 died on the spot. The bus was set on fire due to which eight persons got burnt alive. 

October 01: The BSF personnel in Handwara town of Kupwara district started indiscriminate firing on the unarmed civilians, who were busy in marketing activities, killing 20 of them on the spot.

1991
January 19: The personnel of 42-CRPF opened indiscriminate fire, killing 11 civilians in Magarmalbagh, Srinagar. Most of the victims were waiting for bus and being a busy place, most of the passers-by received bullet shots and died on the spot. 
January 30: In Achabal Islamabad, the Indian armed forces opened indiscriminate fire, killing seven innocent persons. 

March 11: At Rakhi Haigam, Sopore, in Baramullah district, Indian armed forces started indiscriminate firing, killing six civilians, including Manzoor Ahmad Dar aged only 12 years. 

March 16: The Indian troops cordoned the area in Pishwari Trehgam in Kupwara district. At that time about 12 persons were offering prayers in a mosque within the cordoned area. The forces directed the worshipers to come out of the Mosque but they could not come out as they were engaged in the prayers. The forces entered into the Mosque and started firing. The Imam (Leader of the prayers) did not break the prayers. He was shot in his head. Other persons were dragged in the compound of the Mosque and six more persons were shot dead. 

May 05: At Khayam, Khanyar in Sriangar, the troops fired indiscriminately on the pedestrians due to which, five persons including a girl, Aisha, aged three years were killed. 

May 8: In Pir Dastgeer, Khanyar locality of down town Srinagar, troops of CRPF, BSF's 2nd and 60th Bn opened fire on thousands of people who were assembled to bury some martyred Kashmiris. 18 civilians were killed. In this incident, one infant aged two years, and his father were also killed. 

June 11: The CRPF troops opened indiscriminate fire, having been frightened by the sound of a tire burst, leaving 32 civilians killed in the densely populated area of Chotabazar, Srinagar. The killed included, shopkeepers, passers-by, old persons, women and children. 

September 03: At Safanagri and Nelora in Pulwama district, the armed forces fired on unarmed civilians and more than 23 got killed.

1992
April 2: In Aloosa village of Bandipore tehsil of Baramullah district, the villagers were kept confined to the village limits for the whole day by the Indian troops, while those out for fishing were fired upon. At least five boatmen were killed in the firing. Many bodies were recovered from the Wular Lake as they had been made to sink by tying heavy stones to their limbs. 

April 13: During early hours of the day, BSF troops charged into the area, comprising Mohalla Hajama, Talian, Syed Sultanpora, Mahrajpora, and Chinkipora, started indiscriminate firing which resulted in killing of 13 civilians including one woman. 

July 2: There was a tyre burst of a moving vehicle, which created a panic in the crowded market of Lal Chowk Srinagar. In response the CRPF troops, posted at Hari Singh High Street, fired indiscriminately, killing six civilians. 

July 6: The BSF men subjected Ishbar locality in the outskirts of Srinagar to indiscriminate firing and at least 7 civilians were killed. 

July 13: Army personnel entered the village of Nasrullahpora, adjacent to Budgam, and started indiscriminate firing, killing ten innocent people. 

August 15: In Taj Mohalla of Tral in Pulwama district, BSF troops killed 6 civilians in cold blood. One of them was burnt alive. 
October 2: 10 civilians were killed in Handwara town of Kupwara district by BSF troops. 

December 12: Indian troops killed 7 civilians in Kishtwar area of Doda district.

1993
January 6: 94 BSF-Bn personnel ran amuck, killing 57 civilians, mostly roasted alive, when they set ablaze 37 residential and 35 commercial structures at Sopore in Baramullah district. 

April 10: 47 innocent Kashmiris were burnt alive when BSF set afire, most of the Lal Chowk, Srinagar, destroying 59 houses, 190 shops, 53 godowns and 2 office complexes. 

July 01: In Baba Reshi area of Baramullah district, the troops started indiscriminate firing and killed 9 civilians who had come to the shrine. 

July 30: In Hangubutch, Pulwama district 12 civilians were killed and 100 injured. A magisterial probe was announced but never completed.

August 01: Sub inspector Ajmer Singh of BSF, 60Bn along with three of his subordinates, killed a couple Abdul Rashid Dar and Hajra after barging into their residence in Daribal Srinagar. Their critically injured son Hilal succumbed to wounds in hospital. After thousands of people took to the streets in anti-India demonstration, the police and army resorted to firing, killing 10 of them. 

August 14: Indian secret agents dragged out passengers from a bus on Sarthal link road in Kishtawar, Doda and sprayed them with bullets, killing 14 civilians. 
October 22: Troops of BSF 7Bn opened fire on a procession in Bijbehara town of Islamabad district, killing 50 and injuring 100 civilians. 

November 20: At Aadipora, in Sopore area of Baramullah district, the BSF personnel opened fire and killed five persons including a woman. 

November 24: In Sangrama in Baramullah district, the BSF troops fired indiscriminately and killed seven unarmed civilians. 

December 22: At Bulbul Nowgam in Shangas area of Islamabad district, the Indian troops fired indiscriminately, killing six civilians.

1994
January 24: Indian troops killed 18 Kashmiris in Kupwara. 

May 10: In Bandipora BSF troops, during crack-down, arrested 9 persons in presence of the locals, took them to a military camp in Bandipora where they were killed and their dead bodies were handed over to their relatives.

1995
February 10: BSF opened fire in narrow business street, in Gad Kocha, Srinagar, killing 6 shopkeepers and injuring 38 others.

1996
January 5: Indian armed agents massacred 15 Kashmiris, 10 of them belonging to one family, in Barshala village of Doda district. 
June 8: In Kamlari village of Doda district, Indian armed agents killed eight civilians.

1997 
March 20: Seven civilians were killed in Sangrampura (Budgam). 

April 7: A group of Indian secret agents swooped on Sanghrampora village, in Beerwa outskirts in Budgam district, and shot dead seven Kashmiris.

April 18: 27 civilians were killed in Prankote in Udhampur district in Jammu region. 
September 19: In mortar shelling by BSF, 11 villagers were killed in remote village of Arin in Baramullah district.

1998
January 26: Indian agents swooped Wandhama village of Ganderbal tehsil in Srinagar district and massacred 26 Kashmiris. 

June 19: 25 civilians were killed in Chapnari area Of Doda district in Jammu region. 
June 28: In Madwa, Doda 9 villagers were massacred by 26-Rashtriya Rifles, on the Eid (Muslim festival) day. 

July 28: 16 civilians were killed in two villages of Doda District in Jammu region. 
August 3: Twenty civilians were killed in Sailain village of Surankote, Poonch. The dead included seven children.

August 8: 35 labourers were killed in Kalaban on Jammu-Himachal Pradesh border.

1999
February 20: Four civilians were killed at Muraputta-Rajouri, nine at Barlyara-Udhampur and seven at Bllala-Rajouri in Jammu. 

February 20: In Baljaralan hamlet of Udhampur district, Indian armed agents killed 10 civilians. Apparently, the same group reappeared in Mora Pota in Budhal belt, and killed 4 members of a family. 

June 29: Indian troops and their agents dragged out 17 civilians, including 5 women and 7 children, in twin hamlets of Morha Bichai and Sahotri in Poonch and killed them. 
June 30: Fifteen labourers were killed in Anantnag district of south Kashmir.

2000
February 28: Five civilians were killed near qazigund in Anantnag district of Kashmir. 

March 17: Indian secret agencies killed 7 truck drivers near a BSF camp at Qazigund in Islamabad district. 

March 20: 35 civilians were massacred at Chatisinghpora in Anantnag. 

March 24: Five innocent civilians, missing since March 24, 2000, were killed in custody and subsequently roasted by army at Brakpora in Islamabad district. 

March 30: 7 protestors were killed by SOG troops near Pathirbal in Islamabad district, who were demanding dead bodies of Brakpora massacre. 

May 14: Five teenagers, arrested from Sopore, were killed by Indian troops in Tangdar area of Kupwara district. 

August 1: 35 Amarnath Yatris (pilgrims) were killed by Indian secret agencies and CRPF troops at Pahalgam in Islamabad district. 

August 1: 31 civilians were massacred at Pahalgam in Anantnag. 

August 1: 27 labourers were gunned down in Qazigund and Achabal in Anantnag. 

August 2: Seven people of one family were killed in frontier district of Kupwara in North Kashmir. 

August 2: 11 civilians were killed in Doda district of Jammu.

2001
February 03: Indian secret agencies killed 7 Sikhs at Mahjoornagar in Srinagar. 

February 10: At Kotchatwal in Bhudal area of Rajouri district, 12 civilians including 6 kids and 4 women were killed by Indian troops and their secret agencies. 

March 17: Eight people were massacred near Atholi in Doda.

March 21: At Mandi in Poonch district, the Indian troops used helicopters and gun ships and killed 10 Kashmiris. 

March 31: At Doru, Islamabad, 7 Kashmiri drivers were killed by Indian troops. 

July 21: 13 civilians were killed at Sheshnag in Anantnag. 

July 22: 12 people were massacred in Cheerji and Tagood in Doda district of Jammu. 

August 4: 15 villagers were killed in Ludder-Sharotid Har area of Doda. 

August 6: Indian agents killed 7 civilians in Sajjar village of Atholi, in Kistwar tehsil of Doda district. 

December 8: 10 unarmed civilians, including women and children, were killed in the indiscriminate military firing in Baramullah.

2002
January 6: 6 civilians were killed at Luddu and Ramsu,Doda.

January 20: 11 civilians were killed at Behra, Poonch.

January 21: Indian troops killed 14 persons including 8 children of 3 families, at Salwa village in Maindher area of Poonch in Rajouri district. 

February 16: 8 civilians were killed at Nirala. Rajouri.

May 14: 36 civilians were killed at Kaluchak, Jammu.

July 13: 28 civilians were massacred at Kasimpura in Jammu. 

August 5: Nine pilgrims were killed in Nuwan Pehalgam in Islamabad district.

2003
March 24: 24 civilians were massacred including 11 women and 2 children at Nadimerg village of Pulwama. 

October 22: Seven members of a family were shot dead when armed Indian agents opened indiscriminate firing at a wedding ceremony in Domail area of Doda district.

2004
April 5: Seven civilians were killed at Pahalgam in Islamabad.

2006
May 01: 35 civilians were killed at Basantgarh in Udhampur and Kulhaang in Doda district. » 

A bloody account of mass massacres | Kashmir Media Service


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## gogbot

May be you should go tell all this to Omar Abdulha , he is the CM of Kashmir. Even though he is a Kashmir elected individual. elected just this year.
He is a youth icon throughout India.
If he says anything like this then everyone will believe you.

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## Spring Onion

gogbot said:


> May be you should go tell all this to Omar Abdulha , he is the CM of Kashmir. Even though he is a Kashmir elected individual. elected just this year.
> He is a youth icon throughout India.
> If he says anything like this then everyone will believe you.



Omar Abdullah is again like his father an Indian puppet. 

But still he spoke against Indian attrocities in Held Kashmir on some occasions.


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## idune

*Outcry in Delhi over Kashmir massacre *
From TIM MCGIRK in New Delhi 

Indian officials yesterday admitted that members of the paramilitary Border Security Force went on a 'shameful' rampage of killing in the mountainous north-west state of Kashmir on Wednesday.

The state governor, Girish Saxena, has ordered an inquiry into the security forces, who set fire to hundreds of shops and houses and allegedly massacred more than 55 Kashmiri civilians in revenge after separatists ambushed a military patrol. The incident is one of the worst atrocities by Indian paramilitary forces in their attempt over the past three years to crush an uprising by Muslim militants in Kashmir.

The latest Kashmir killings are sure to strain relations between Hindus and Muslims in other parts of India. More than 1,000 Indians died in religious strife last month after Hindu zealots wrecked a Muslim shrine in the northern town of Ayodhya and the wounds between the two communities have yet to heal. At least 20 people have died in clashes in Bombay over the past two days.

Eyewitnesses in Sopore, a town surrounded by apple orchards in the high mountain valley of Kashmir, said that early on Wednesday Muslim separatists attacked a patrol of Indian security forces, killing at least one member of the Border Security Force. Then, for more than four hours, the security forces, who are mainly Hindus, wreaked revenge in a crowded shopping district. One Muslim woman said: 'They went berserk. They were shooting women and children at random.'

*The Border Security Forces sprayed a public coach with machine-gun fire, killing the driver and more than 15 passengers, said witnesses. Three other cars were also fired on, and then the paramilitary forces set the vehicles ablaze. Next, they began herding the native Kashmiris into shops and houses, said witnesses. Then the security forces shot them, splashed paraffin over the bodies and set the buildings alight.* Officially, more than 250 shops and 50 homes were destroyed, but Kashmir sources claim that more than 450 buildings were burnt down. Another 25 bodies may still be trapped in the smoking rubble, claim witnesses.

Initially, the Indian government claimed that the deaths occurred during a shoot-out between Muslim militants and the paramilitary forces, when an explosives cache belonging to the militants blew up and flames spread to nearby dwellings.

But this version failed to explain why so many of the bodies were riddled with bullets.

Thousands of Kashmiri Muslim women defied a curfew and marched through Sopore yesterday protesting against the killings. In Delhi, the Prime Minister, Narasimha Rao, ordered the state governor to visit the demolished area of Sopore and authorised a payment of pounds 2,275 to relatives of the deceased. Human rights organisations have criticised Mr Saxena for failing to stop the excesses of the Indian security forces in Kashmir. Few members of the security forces involved in hundreds of documented cases of rape, torture and murder have ever been punished.

In New Delhi, prominent Muslim leaders and left-wing politicians demanded the sacking of Mr Saxena and also called for a parliamentary delegation to be sent to Kashmir.

Kashmir has remained under a virtual news blackout over the past few months. The Kashmir valley is surrounded by Himalayan peaks and telecommunications with the rest of India were paralysed after a micro-wave transmission tower was sabotaged. The government blames the militants for the sabotage, but the Kashmir separatists claim that the government did it to shield the ruthless tactics of the Indian security forces from outside scrutiny.

Outcry in Delhi over Kashmir massacre - World, News - The Independent


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## hack

idune said:


> *Outcry in Delhi over Kashmir massacre *
> From TIM MCGIRK in New Delhi
> 
> Indian officials yesterday admitted that members of the paramilitary Border Security Force went on a 'shameful' rampage of killing in the mountainous north-west state of Kashmir on Wednesday.
> 
> The state governor, Girish Saxena, has ordered an inquiry into the security forces, who set fire to hundreds of shops and houses and allegedly massacred more than 55 Kashmiri civilians in revenge after separatists ambushed a military patrol. The incident is one of the worst atrocities by Indian paramilitary forces in their attempt over the past three years to crush an uprising by Muslim militants in Kashmir.
> 
> The latest Kashmir killings are sure to strain relations between Hindus and Muslims in other parts of India. More than 1,000 Indians died in religious strife last month after Hindu zealots wrecked a Muslim shrine in the northern town of Ayodhya and the wounds between the two communities have yet to heal. At least 20 people have died in clashes in Bombay over the past two days.
> 
> Eyewitnesses in Sopore, a town surrounded by apple orchards in the high mountain valley of Kashmir, said that early on Wednesday Muslim separatists attacked a patrol of Indian security forces, killing at least one member of the Border Security Force. Then, for more than four hours, the security forces, who are mainly Hindus, wreaked revenge in a crowded shopping district. One Muslim woman said: 'They went berserk. They were shooting women and children at random.'
> 
> *The Border Security Forces sprayed a public coach with machine-gun fire, killing the driver and more than 15 passengers, said witnesses. Three other cars were also fired on, and then the paramilitary forces set the vehicles ablaze. Next, they began herding the native Kashmiris into shops and houses, said witnesses. Then the security forces shot them, splashed paraffin over the bodies and set the buildings alight.* Officially, more than 250 shops and 50 homes were destroyed, but Kashmir sources claim that more than 450 buildings were burnt down. Another 25 bodies may still be trapped in the smoking rubble, claim witnesses.
> 
> Initially, the Indian government claimed that the deaths occurred during a shoot-out between Muslim militants and the paramilitary forces, when an explosives cache belonging to the militants blew up and flames spread to nearby dwellings.
> 
> But this version failed to explain why so many of the bodies were riddled with bullets.
> 
> Thousands of Kashmiri Muslim women defied a curfew and marched through Sopore yesterday protesting against the killings. In Delhi, the Prime Minister, Narasimha Rao, ordered the state governor to visit the demolished area of Sopore and authorised a payment of pounds 2,275 to relatives of the deceased. Human rights organisations have criticised Mr Saxena for failing to stop the excesses of the Indian security forces in Kashmir. Few members of the security forces involved in hundreds of documented cases of rape, torture and murder have ever been punished.
> 
> In New Delhi, prominent Muslim leaders and left-wing politicians demanded the sacking of Mr Saxena and also called for a parliamentary delegation to be sent to Kashmir.
> 
> Kashmir has remained under a virtual news blackout over the past few months. The Kashmir valley is surrounded by Himalayan peaks and telecommunications with the rest of India were paralysed after a micro-wave transmission tower was sabotaged. The government blames the militants for the sabotage, but the Kashmir separatists claim that the government did it to shield the ruthless tactics of the Indian security forces from outside scrutiny.
> 
> Outcry in Delhi over Kashmir massacre - World, News - The Independent



When is this news from 1992?


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## leonblack08

gogbot said:


> May be you should go tell all this to Omar Abdulha , he is the CM of Kashmir. Even though he is a Kashmir elected individual. elected just this year.
> He is a *youth icon* throughout India.
> If he says anything like this then everyone will believe you.



Sorry for being off topic,
Isn't Omar Abdullah involved in that sex scandal?I don't think he is a good "Youth Icon" for Indian young generation.

A politician should not only be clean in his political life but also in his personal life.

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## glomex

leonblack08 said:


> Sorry for being off topic,
> Isn't Omar Abdullah involved in that sex scandal?I don't think he is a good "Youth Icon" for Indian young generation.
> 
> A politician should not only be clean in his political life but also in his personal life.



Please read this news:
CBI gives Omar a clean chit in sex scandal: India Today - Latest Breaking News from India, World, Business, Cricket, Sports, Bollywood.

CBI gives Omar a clean chit in sex scandal
Headlines Today
New Delhi, July 28, 2009

The CBI on Tuesday gave a clean chit to Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah in the 2006 sex scandal following allegations by an Opposition party leader in the J&K Assembly that Omar and his father, Farooq Abdullah, were involved in the scandal. 

Following the allegations by PDP's Muzaffar Hussain Baig, an emotional Omar offered to resign as CM until his name was cleared of the charges.

In its clarification, the CBI said the J&K CM's name does not figure in the case and added that no member of the Abdullah family was involved in the scandal.

The CBI investigated the Sabina sex scandal of 2006 in which two former J&K ministers, Ghulam Ahmed Mir and Raman Mattoo, were indicted. A CBI probe was ordered by the then CM Ghulam Nabi Azad following a letter from his then deputy Muzaffar Hussain Baig, who had sought an impartial probe because of the involvement of some members of the cabinet.

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## idune

http://img299.imageshack.us/i/kashmirkid.jpg/
Tortured Kashmiri Children


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## glomex

idune said:


> http://img299.imageshack.us/i/kashmirkid.jpg/
> Tortured Kashmiri Children



Yup...A tortured Kashmir Kid...Whose father got killed in the bomb planted by Terrorists.......and poor kid barley survived......He is currently recapitulating in Army Hospital in Kashmir.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> ^^ Jana you are forgetting East Pakistan, Balochistan etc.
> 
> Isn't there something that a person in a glass house shouldn't do with a stone? I keep forgetting what that is.





glomex said:


> @toxic_pus... the lady is trying to help...our Bangladeshi friend....to prove that India is worse of Than Bangladesh......But a similar thread on Bangladesh has been Closed...but this thread still lives....I wonder if this is anti India Bias at work here.....



I am leaving this thread open because it primarily has to do with an ongoing conflict and abuses in the disputed territory of J&K.


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## Awesome

glomex said:


> Yup thats why multiple Infiltration attempts are being made across LOC and Terrorists are being killed by India Army....They Killed 5 Terrorists trying to infiltrate this morning.
> 
> No wonder ...Indian claims of peace are false....


It may be true... But I'm saying that freedom struggle or no freedom struggle, what do Kashmiris have to fear from fasting due to the separatists? That is unless they were hiding from the Indian Army!


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## glomex

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I am leaving this thread open because it primarily has to do with an ongoing conflict and abuses in the disputed territory of J&K.




Wow...Whatever suits Pakistani taste buds ..Haan.......We all know how Pakistanis and Bangladeshis ..love to rant anti India BS...so this tread will be a sugar syrup for those Flies....


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## idune

*Genocide in Kashmir by Indian Forces *

Kashmir, often called paradise, is a rich green mountain region North of Pakistan. At the time of independence of Pakistan, all Muslim majority areas were to become part of Pakistan. Kashmir, an 80% Muslim majority region did not become part of Pakistan. Currently, Pakistan administers 1/3 of Kashmir, also know as "Azad (Free) Kashmir." The rest 2/3 under Indian military occupation. There is civil unrest against the occupation of Indian Occupied Kashmir. India is responding with brutal force to crush the civil unrest demanding end of Indian rule. A number of U.N. resolutions have been passed condemning the Indian occupation of 2/3 of Kashmir. As always, the U.N. has not been able to implement its resolution. 

The price is being paid by the Kashmiris through their miseries, tortures and brutal deaths as the hands of occupying Indian Army. The extent of torture, killings and rapes perpetrated on Kashmiri people by Indian forces are already creating a new record of atrocities. Gouging of eyes, cutting off of men's genitals, use of ever new methods of torture and endless curfews would shame Hitler's SS death squads. The Indian occupation army's deviltry such as gang-rapes, burning of entire villages and crops, destruction of economic life of whole communities and genocide of the Kashmiri people in defiance of international human rights laws, are everyday affairs. 


http://img136.imageshack.us/i/k25w.jpg/ 
A question that every second woman asks! 


For the last fifty plus years, Kashmiris have been fighting for independence from India. They are being butchered by over 700,000 Indian occupying soldiers stationed there. Still, Kashmiris have not given up to their oppressors. The UN resolutions on Kashmir have yet to be implemented. Since 1988 alone, Kashmir has sacrificed over 70,000 of its sons and daughters, billions worth of its property and peace of mind of its people at the altar of its national emancipation. The brave Kashmiris have decided to implement the resolutions by themselves and have pledged to stop Indian genocide in Kashmir.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

glomex said:


> Wow...Whatever suits Pakistani taste buds ..Haan.......We all know how Pakistanis and Bangladeshis ..love to rant anti India BS...so this tread will be a sugar syrup for those Flies....



You can show it is ranting and raving by illustrating how the articles and information being posted is incorrect.

It is your nation being accused after all, try and refute the accusations - or, accept your guilt and either change things or just say that you are fine with the immorality and depravity of it all. 

Somehow I suspect you'll go for the latter.

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## brahmastra

DOCUMENT - PAKISTAN, AZAD JAMMU AND KASHMIR: TORTURE OR ILL-TREATMENT / ARBITRARY DETENTION / POSSIBLE PRISONERS OF CONSCIENCE

PAKISTAN: AZAD JAMMU AND KASHMIR Around 35 political activists


At least 35 political activists have been detained and ill-treated after staging an apparently peaceful political protest in the state of Azad Jammu and Kashmir. Amnesty International fears that they are at risk of further torture or ill-treatment.

Twenty-seven members of the Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front and several members of the United Kashmir People&#8217;s National party, both of which favour independence for Jammu and Kashmir, were arrested on or around 7 June. Several of the detainees were reportedly beaten during arrest, in police custody or jail. They are currently held in Kotli jail.

Most of the detainees appear to be held under legislation which permits preventive detention of anyone making a speech which &#8220;causes or is likely to cause fear or alarm to the public&#8221; or &#8220;furthers or is likely to further any activity prejudicial to public safety or the maintenance of public order&#8221;.

All of the above were arrested after they protested against the Election Commission&#8217;s decision to reject their candidates&#8217; nomination papers for the Legislative Assembly election on 5 July. The Commission rejects the nomination papers of candidates who refuse to sign a declaration declaring support for the accession of Azad Jammu and Kashmir to Pakistan.

BACKGROUND INFORMATION

Azad [literally: independent] Jammu and Kashmir is the area of Kashmir under temporary Pakistani administration. The state has an interim constitution which lays down the &#8220;ideology of the State&#8217;s accession to Pakistan&#8221; as a guiding principle for political activity, stating that: &#8220;No person or party in Azad Jammu and Kashmir shall be permitted to propagate against, or take part in activities prejudicial or detrimental to, the ideology of the State&#8217;s accession to Pakistan".

Those who oppose the accession of Azad Jammu and Kashmir to Pakistan have been harassed and denied a number of fundamental rights. Some have lost their jobs, other have been denied access to education and employment. Political parties favouring independence have been permitted to function, but have been excluded from participating in elections because of the requirement to declare allegiance to the goal of accession.


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## brahmastra

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I am leaving this thread open because it primarily has to do with an ongoing conflict and abuses in the *disputed territory of J&K*.



Kashmir is an internal part of India.


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## glomex

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> You can show it is ranting and raving by illustrating how the articles and information being posted is incorrect.
> 
> It is your nation being accused after all, try and refute the accusations - or, accept your guilt and either change things or just say that you are fine with the immorality and depravity of it all.
> 
> Somehow I suspect you'll go for the latter.



Hmmmm....good English...... let me see for how long this thread survives......

Idune boy got emotional because Some India Poster started .....ripping his Bangladeshi Dream of all fair Bangladesh and Devil India.........so he countered by staring this thread.......but unfortunately you deleted the thread he was countering...so his emotions will fizzle out in a day or two.....


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> At least 35 political activists have been detained and ill-treated


Detained and 'ill treated' wow - wait, that is what happens at every police station in Pakistan, sadly.



> after staging an apparently peaceful political protest in the state of Azad Jammu and Kashmir. Amnesty International fears that they are at risk of further torture or ill-treatment.


So were they tortured or not?

BTW, please stick to thread topic.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

brahmastra said:


> Kashmir is an internal part of India.



According to India alone - its sort of like a thief arguing that the items in his possessions are his, despite the court having stated otherwise.

The UNSC resolutions clearly describe J&K as disputed, and the global community, India and Pakistan endorsed them and committed to them which means even India accepted that the region was disputed.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

glomex said:


> ...so his emotions will fizzle out in a day or two.....



Plenty of information establishing the atrocities committed already.

I am assuming by your response then that you are not challenging most of the accusations made here.


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## glomex

idune said:


> *Genocide in Kashmir by Indian Forces *
> 
> Kashmir, often called paradise, i.........................



Where is the link to this news item...Bangali Moshai........Lost in transit..I mean...copy paste...or the source is not credible enough and you are scared of your Azz getting Busted....


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## brahmastra

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> According to India alone - its sort of like a thief arguing that the items in his possessions are his, despite the court having stated otherwise.
> 
> The UNSC resolutions clearly describe J&K as disputed, and the global community, India and Pakistan endorsed them and committed to them which means even India accepted that the region was disputed.



Ha Ha... nice .
then why did you delete the post that was reporting human right violation in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

brahmastra said:


> Ha Ha... nice .
> then why did you delete the post that was reporting human right violation in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir.



Nice what?

My post you quoted was about the status of Kashmir, what does that have to do with alleged human rights violations in Azad Kashmir and this thread?

You can refute the arguments made here about Indian atrocities, or post more information substantiating them.


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## brahmastra

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Nice what?
> 
> My post you quoted was about the status of Kashmir, what does that have to do with alleged human rights violations in Azad Kashmir and this thread?
> 
> You can refute the arguments made here about Indian atrocities, or post more information substantiating them.



then we can open new thread as "Human right violation in Pakistan occupied kashmir."


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

BTW -there have been multiple threads discussing the claimed atrocities in East Pakistan in 1971, and most were allowed to continue for a very long time, until the arguments became circular.

If you read through them, you will find that many Pakistanis tried to put up rational and logical arguments as to why the larger claims were not accurate. 

I think if Pakistanis could do that WRT East Pakistan, Indians can do that here.

---------- Post added at 09:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 AM ----------




brahmastra said:


> then we can open new thread as "Human right violation in Pakistan occupied kashmir."



After some time perhaps - right now it'll come across as tit for tat, and go down the route of the threads in the Bangladesh section. Please also see above post.


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## brahmastra

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> After some time perhaps - right now it'll come across as tit for tat, and go down the route of the threads in the Bangladesh section. Please also see above post.



Ok then. tell us when u r happy to open that thread.


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## Spring Onion

Some of the news from media and orgs arround the world non from Pakistani sources so please dont rant them as biased ones.

*Examples of Indian atrocities in Kashmir*




"As the conflict in Kashmir enters its fourth year, central and state authorities have done little to stop the widespread practice of rape by Indian security forces in Kashmir. Indeed, when confronted with the evidence of rape, time and again the authorities have attempted to impugn the integrity of the witnesses, discredit the testimony of physicians or simply deny the charges everything except order a full inquiry and prosecute those responsible for rape". 
(Asia Watch and Physicians for Human Rights, May 09, 1993) 

"Since January 1990, rape by Indian occupation forces has become more frequent. Rape most often occurs during crackdowns, cordon and search operations during which men are held for identification in parks or schoolyards while security forces search their homes. In raping them, the security forces are attempting to punish and humiliate the entire community." 
('Pain in Kashmir: A Crime of War' issued jointly by Asia Watch and Physicians for Human Rights, May 09, 1993) 

*"By beginning TV cameras and prohibiting the presence in Kashmir of the International Red Cross and of human rights organization, the Indian authorities have tried to keep Kashmir out of the news."
(`Kashmiri crisis at the flash point', The Washington Times, by columnist Cord Meyer, April 23, 1993)*
*

"(On February 23, 1991), at least 23 women were reportedly raped in their homes at gunpoint (at Kunan Poshpora in Kashmir). Some are said to have been gang-raped, others to have been raped in front of their children ... The youngest victim was a girl of 13 named Misra, the oldest victim, name Jana, was aged 80".
(Amnesty International, March 1992) *

*"The most common torture methods are severe beatings, sometimes while the victim is hung upside down, and electric shocks. People have also been crushed with heavy rollers, burned, stabbed with sharp instruments, and had objects such as chilies or thick sticks forced into their rectums. Sexual mutilation has been reported".
(Amnesty International, March 1992) *

*"The worst outrages by the CRPF (Central Reserve Police Force) have been frequent gang rapes of all women in Muslim villages, followed by the execution of the men". 
(Eric Margolis, The Ottawa Citizen, December 8, 1991)*

*"While army troops dragged men from their homes for questioning in the border town of Kunan Pushpura, scores of women say they were raped by soldiers....a pregnant Kashmiri woman, who was raped and kicked, gave birth to a son with a broken arm."
(Melinda Liuin, Newsweek, June 24, 1991)*

*[Anthony Wood and Ron MaCullagh of the Sunday Observer (June 02, 1992) estimated that over 500 Indian army men were involved in this orgy of rape and plunder in Kunan Pushpura.]

"The security forces have entered hospitals, beaten patients, hit doctors, entered operating theaters, smashed instruments. Ambulances have been attacked, curfew passes are confiscated."
(Asia Watch, May 1991) *


*"Subjugated, humiliated, tortured and killed by the 650,000-strong Indian army, the people of Kashmir have been living through sheer hell for more than a year, the result of an increasingly brutal campaign of state repression. India hides behind its carefully-crafted image of "non-violence" and presents itself in international forums as a model of democracy and Pluralism. Yet, it is unable to stand up the scrutiny of even its admirers. All journalists, especially television crews, were expelled from the Valley. With no intrusive cameras to record the brutalities of the Indian forces, the world has been kept largely in the dark." (The Toronto Star, January 25, 1991)*


*
"Young girls were now being raped systematically by entire (Indian) army units rather than by a single soldier as before. Girls are taken to soldier's camps and held naked in their tents for days on end. Many never return home....Women are strung up naked from trees and their breast lacerated with knives, as the (Indian) soldiers tell them that their breast will never give milk again to a newborn militant. Women are raped in front of their husbands and children, or paraded naked through villages and beaten on the breasts." 
(The Independent, September 18, 1990)*


Examples of Indian atrocities in Kashmir


shame on these beasts,


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

brahmastra said:


> Ok then. tell us when u r happy to open that thread.



Certainly - till then you can browse through the East Pakistan atrocities threads and note how the more rational posters conducted discourse.

I take it you have no interest in refuting anything here then? All true?


----------



## brahmastra

Jana said:


> Some of the news from media and orgs arround the world non from Pakistani sources so please dont rant them as biased ones.
> 
> *Examples of Indian atrocities in Kashmir*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "As the conflict in Kashmir enters its fourth year, central and state authorities have done little to stop the widespread practice of rape by Indian security forces in Kashmir. Indeed, when confronted with the evidence of rape, time and again the authorities have attempted to impugn the integrity of the witnesses, discredit the testimony of physicians or simply deny the charges everything except order a full inquiry and prosecute those responsible for rape".
> (Asia Watch and Physicians for Human Rights, May 09, 1993)
> 
> "Since January 1990, rape by Indian occupation forces has become more frequent. Rape most often occurs during crackdowns, cordon and search operations during which men are held for identification in parks or schoolyards while security forces search their homes. In raping them, the security forces are attempting to punish and humiliate the entire community."
> ('Pain in Kashmir: A Crime of War' issued jointly by Asia Watch and Physicians for Human Rights, May 09, 1993)
> 
> *"By beginning TV cameras and prohibiting the presence in Kashmir of the International Red Cross and of human rights organization, the Indian authorities have tried to keep Kashmir out of the news."
> (`Kashmiri crisis at the flash point', The Washington Times, by columnist Cord Meyer, April 23, 1993)*
> *
> 
> "(On February 23, 1991), at least 23 women were reportedly raped in their homes at gunpoint (at Kunan Poshpora in Kashmir). Some are said to have been gang-raped, others to have been raped in front of their children ... The youngest victim was a girl of 13 named Misra, the oldest victim, name Jana, was aged 80".
> (Amnesty International, March 1992) *
> 
> *"The most common torture methods are severe beatings, sometimes while the victim is hung upside down, and electric shocks. People have also been crushed with heavy rollers, burned, stabbed with sharp instruments, and had objects such as chilies or thick sticks forced into their rectums. Sexual mutilation has been reported".
> (Amnesty International, March 1992) *
> 
> *"The worst outrages by the CRPF (Central Reserve Police Force) have been frequent gang rapes of all women in Muslim villages, followed by the execution of the men".
> (Eric Margolis, The Ottawa Citizen, December 8, 1991)*
> 
> *"While army troops dragged men from their homes for questioning in the border town of Kunan Pushpura, scores of women say they were raped by soldiers....a pregnant Kashmiri woman, who was raped and kicked, gave birth to a son with a broken arm."
> (Melinda Liuin, Newsweek, June 24, 1991)*
> 
> *[Anthony Wood and Ron MaCullagh of the Sunday Observer (June 02, 1992) estimated that over 500 Indian army men were involved in this orgy of rape and plunder in Kunan Pushpura.]
> 
> "The security forces have entered hospitals, beaten patients, hit doctors, entered operating theaters, smashed instruments. Ambulances have been attacked, curfew passes are confiscated."
> (Asia Watch, May 1991) *
> 
> 
> *"Subjugated, humiliated, tortured and killed by the 650,000-strong Indian army, the people of Kashmir have been living through sheer hell for more than a year, the result of an increasingly brutal campaign of state repression. India hides behind its carefully-crafted image of "non-violence" and presents itself in international forums as a model of democracy and Pluralism. Yet, it is unable to stand up the scrutiny of even its admirers. All journalists, especially television crews, were expelled from the Valley. With no intrusive cameras to record the brutalities of the Indian forces, the world has been kept largely in the dark." (The Toronto Star, January 25, 1991)*
> 
> 
> *
> "Young girls were now being raped systematically by entire (Indian) army units rather than by a single soldier as before. Girls are taken to soldier's camps and held naked in their tents for days on end. Many never return home....Women are strung up naked from trees and their breast lacerated with knives, as the (Indian) soldiers tell them that their breast will never give milk again to a newborn militant. Women are raped in front of their husbands and children, or paraded naked through villages and beaten on the breasts."
> (The Independent, September 18, 1990)*
> 
> 
> Examples of Indian atrocities in Kashmir
> 
> 
> shame on these beasts,




Are you living in 90's? I hope not.

Its not new that terrorists rape and kill innocent kashmiri people in Indian army dress to simply create hatred in people.they know they donot have moral support of people as they target common people not only military establishment.

People of Kashmir do want to live with India.
Only few people in kashmir vally are not supporting India. Infact they are afraid of militants not the Indian Army that they can not openly support India.

These hurriyat people do not have any support of the people or say people do not support hurriyat.

They(hurriyat) donot even dare to stand in election.If they had support than they could have stand in election. And when they know that they will loose the election they boycott it which always remains unsuccessful.


----------



## IndiaNews98

No, its all untrue. This is mostly anti-India propaganda that is encouraged by anti-India groups including Pakistani ones.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> People of Kashmir do want to live with India.



Why the refusal to hold a plebsicite in all of J&K then, and why renege on your commitments to the UNSC resolutions?

---------- Post added at 10:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 AM ----------




IndiaNews98 said:


> No, its all untrue. This is mostly anti-India propaganda that is encouraged by anti-India groups including Pakistani ones.



Thanks - that makes me feel better!


----------



## IndiaNews98

Good that it makes you feel better. This disgusting anti-India propaganda is all lies. I hope those beasts who cooked up these stories die in hell.


----------



## Spring Onion

Kashmir shame elections


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

IndiaNews98 said:


> Good that it makes you feel better. This disgusting anti-India propaganda is all lies. I hope those beasts who cooked up these stories die in hell.



I think they escaped the long arm of the Indian security forces who committed those crimes and lived to tell the tale.


----------



## Gabbar

> Why the refusal to hold a plebsicite in all of J&K then, and why renege on your commitments to the UNSC resolutions?



1. Bad security situation
2. Hunderereds and thousands people, maily Pundits, have left the valley and many cant be traced who would surely vote for India.
3. Referendum? No political party in India would commit suicide by holding referendu. It's not that India would loose, it's about giving in to Pakistan's demand and let UN hold on indian terratory.

You would call this offtopic and I would call it parrallel situation. I dont see your support for Chinese muslims.


----------



## brahmastra

Jana said:


> Kashmir shame elections
> 
> 
> gTiyg5hYauU[/media] - Fraud elections in kashmir



Dear Jana, video u uploaded and title of the video doesn't match.

video donot have any sound and infact its not even a "video".


----------



## Gabbar

@ jana:

Stop embarassing your self with picture slids and calling it video.


----------



## brahmastra

may be this is the reason why actual people of kashmir donot support separatists.


----------



## Nemesis

Amusing....however lets just state that the Indian army has never been implicated in Genocide....that cannot be said of our neighbors.


----------



## Spring Onion

*Report: Kashmiri women raped before killing *
Mon, 08 Jun 2009 01:54:31 GMT 


*A forensic report confirms that the two women who died under suspicious circumstances in the Indian-administered Kashmir had been sexually assaulted. 

The report given by experts confirmed that 17-year-old Asiya and her 22-year-old sister-in-law, Nilufar were sexually assaulted in the volatile valley before their death last week, The Hindu reported on Monday. *

The doctors who conducted the autopsy said that the bodies had visible marks of violence and further investigations were to be carried out to see if it was a gang rape. 

*The report would bring embarrassment to the government that had rejected the charges, claiming that preliminary investigations showed the two women had drowned. *

*The protesters and the families of the victims allege that the two women from the southern district of Shopian were gang-raped and subsequently killed by Indian troops last Friday. *

The bodies of the two women were recovered the next morning near a canal in the troubled region. 

This is while daily life in Indian Kashmir remained paralyzed for the seventh consecutive day as a consequence of a general strike. 

An insurgency against Indian rule in Kashmir has left thousands dead over the past two decades. 

Press TV - Report: Kashmiri women raped before killing


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Gabbar said:


> 1. Bad security situation


 Why not a statement stating clearly that a plebsicite would be held once the security situation improves?

In addition, the security situation/insurgency is bad BECAUSE of the Indian decision to renege on its commitment to the UNSC resolutions and a plebiscite and unilaterally annex J&K to India.



> 2. Hunderereds and thousands people, maily Pundits, have left the valley and many cant be traced who would surely vote for India.



A program, under the auspices of the UN and other international agencies, can be undertaken under which such people are traced out and recorded so that they can cast their votes. In any case, this issue comes into play only if the result is narrow enough to allow for the numbers who have migrated to be decisive.


> 3. Referendum? No political party in India would commit suicide by holding referendu. It's not that India would loose, it's about giving in to Pakistan's demand and let UN hold on indian terratory.


That is what your nation committed to and agreed to in the UNSC.

Your argument is essentially that of a child, 'he says it so I won't do it'.


> You would call this offtopic and I would call it parrallel situation. I dont see your support for Chinese muslims.


Chinese Muslims are not on internationally recognized disputed territory or a conflict that Pakistan is a party to - completely off topic.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Nemesis said:


> Amusing....however lets just state that the Indian army has never been implicated in Genocide....that cannot be said of our neighbors.



Please look into the East Pakistan atrocity and genocide threads - plenty of rebuttals have been provided to the claims made about East Pakistan, and stay on topic please.


----------



## IndiaNews98

Excellent Video Brahmastra. This is how innocent Kashmiris are mislead by Jehadi terrorists into some misplaced idea of "azadi", which is nothing but slavery under religious extremism.


----------



## Spring Onion

3/16/09
*Indian army mocks inquiry report *

Shame on the biased Indian media 



The occupation forces showed their true colors today and inadvertently divulged the truth about all inquiries that have ever been called by the so-called government of Kashmir.

The following statement of the army has been reported by most dailies,"...the army&#8217;s Brigade command has informed the government that such an inquiry was not valid under the Army Act". Although this attitude of the occupation army does not surprise Kashmiris at all because we have known their colonial attitude all along. What is evident from this statement is that it exposes the fact that all previous inquiries were in fact shams. We have known this since the first Kashmiri fell prey to the bullets of the criminal Indian Army, and the first ever inquiry, that still has not been concluded, was called many decades ago. This statement just reinforces what we had known all along - that the inquiries are a mere lip service to pacify an agitated population. 

The present inquiry into the deaths of Javed and Amin of Bomai was an anomaly in the long list of inquiries because it was infact concluded and submitted within the promised time. Another big anomaly was that it implicated the army in this crime, which the occupation forces had not anticipated, and caught them off-guard. So the Indian occupation forces have improvised their approach and started to backpaddle.

The Army act!

Delayed reflexes of the occupiers - that's how I characterize this latest antic. And because the inquiry officer, Baseer Ahmad Khan, did not succumb to Indian pressure to alter his report, and surprisingly Omar Abdullah is holding his ground, the Indian occupation forces have changed tactics and started feeding the media that they "will not participate in the inquiry". Too late for that. One thing about criminal minds is that their reflexes are usually slow. The world already knows that the Indian army officers testified before the inquiry officer and had even tried to pressurize him to alter the inquiry report in their favour. And now that the inquiry report has already been concluded and has indicted the Indian army, they want to give the impression that their officers never testified before the inquiry officer. But it is too late for that, unless they can destroy all news reports of February 26, 2009, when the commandants of that base camp testified before the commisioner, then their attempts to backpaddle are futile. (click here to read the news report of that day).

Now that things did not go as they had planned, they want to spin it the other way and invoke some "Army act" to discredit the inquiry report, which fortunately they will not succeed in because Kashmiris are a million times smarter then these petty criminal Indian officers.

Guess who bought this line of their newest nonsense? The biased, communal minded and illogical Indian media.

Here is what a reporter named Sumir Kaul reported for the Press Trust of India (PTI) "Army refuses to be part of govt probe into J&K killings" was the headline, and this is how the story starts, "Army has refused to participate in the inquiry being conducted by the Jammu and Kashmir government...." (click here to read this biased reporting). It is very unlikely that a news organisation like PTI would be unaware that the army had already testified in the inquiry and that the inquiry has already been concluded and submitted to the government. The fact that they chose to report this story as though the inquiry was still ongoing, clearly exposes their bias and malicious intentions.

If people are not able to see through this mockery as a spin and an attempt to rewrite the outcome of the inquiry, then they need to pay a bit more attention. The Indian media is too biased and blinded by their hatred against Kashmiris to have the ethics to report honestly.

Contrast the above biased reporting with how Greater Kashmir, a Kashmiri newspaper, accurately reported the same story:

Here is what GK reported, "ARMY &#8216;REJECTS&#8217; BOMAI PROBE", was the headline, and this is how they developed the main part of the story, "The inquiry report is reported to have blamed the army personnel for not verifying the claims of their informers before shooting down the innocent civilians." (click here to read the full article)

I will leave it to the readers to decide for themselves whether they feel the Indian media is infact biased and unreliable.

Shame on Indian democracy and their biased media.


Kashmir Truth Be Told Blog: Indian army mocks inquiry report


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

brahmastra said:


> may be this is the reason why actual people of kashmir donot support separatists.
> 
> fH6gaY9XoKE[/media] - Interview With Bitta Karate, JKLF Terrorist.AVI



People like this man, and Indian occupation forces, killing innocent Kashmiris should be condemned.


----------



## Spring Onion

*Kashmiri people want azadi from India: IHK CM*


By Iftikhar Gilani

NEW DELHI: *The Kashmiri people want azadi (freedom) from the Union of India, Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) Chief Minister Omar Abdullah has said*.

In an interview with the strategic journal, Force, Abdullah said he would facilitate engagement between New Delhi and the azadi sentiment. However, he added that people wanted freedom from New Delhi, not him or Ghulam Nabi Azad or Mufti Muhammad Sayed. He said trade across the Line of Control (LoC) was disappointing, describing it as not trade, but barter. If I send them stuff and am unable to call and track my payment, I am not in a position to supply goods to them, he said.

Unfriendly atmosphere: The chief minister said poor relations between India and Pakistan were the biggest hurdle to peace and development in Kashmir. He said relations between the two neighbours directly impact the levels of infiltration and violence in IHK. He also said the outcome of the Indian general elections would have a direct bearing on the situation in Jammu and Kashmir. If the government at the Centre changes, that can prove to be a little bit of a stumbling block along the way, he added.

Listing his priorities after the Lok Sabha elections, Abdullah said he would ensure the visible presence of military personnel was reduced, while state police adopted a more proactive role. He also called for the establishment of quick response teams to fight militancy.

No consistency: He also criticised successive regimes in New Delhi for lacking consistency in dealing with pro-freedom elements. Sometimes they are good, sometimes they are not. Sometimes we want to give them passports, sometimes we dont. I think there is a need to change this attitude, he said. Agreeing with the European Union (EU) assessment that Kashmir was not an administrative issue, he said the political dimensions of the issue need to be addressed. We made the mistake in the past of assuming the money was flowing in, the democratically elected government was in place, the violence levels were down so there was no Kashmir issue, he said, adding that regardless of the level of tourism, the flames of militancy would continue to rekindle without full understanding of the political dimensions.

*Army role:* On the recent standoff between his government and the army over the killing of two civilians, he said he wanted punishment for the guilty soldiers. We want the army to send out the right message. But if they want to respond in routine by transferring the guilty to another theatre, we will also respond in routine, he added.


Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


----------



## brahmastra

Jana said:


> 3/16/09
> *Indian army mocks inquiry report *
> 
> Shame on the biased Indian media
> 
> 
> 
> The occupation forces showed their true colors today and inadvertently divulged the truth about all inquiries that have ever been called by the so-called government of Kashmir.
> 
> The following statement of the army has been reported by most dailies,"...the armys Brigade command has informed the government that such an inquiry was not valid under the Army Act". Although this attitude of the occupation army does not surprise Kashmiris at all because we have known their colonial attitude all along. What is evident from this statement is that it exposes the fact that all previous inquiries were in fact shams. We have known this since the first Kashmiri fell prey to the bullets of the criminal Indian Army, and the first ever inquiry, that still has not been concluded, was called many decades ago. This statement just reinforces what we had known all along - that the inquiries are a mere lip service to pacify an agitated population.
> 
> The present inquiry into the deaths of Javed and Amin of Bomai was an anomaly in the long list of inquiries because it was infact concluded and submitted within the promised time. Another big anomaly was that it implicated the army in this crime, which the occupation forces had not anticipated, and caught them off-guard. So the Indian occupation forces have improvised their approach and started to backpaddle.
> 
> The Army act!
> 
> Delayed reflexes of the occupiers - that's how I characterize this latest antic. And because the inquiry officer, Baseer Ahmad Khan, did not succumb to Indian pressure to alter his report, and surprisingly Omar Abdullah is holding his ground, the Indian occupation forces have changed tactics and started feeding the media that they "will not participate in the inquiry". Too late for that. One thing about criminal minds is that their reflexes are usually slow. The world already knows that the Indian army officers testified before the inquiry officer and had even tried to pressurize him to alter the inquiry report in their favour. And now that the inquiry report has already been concluded and has indicted the Indian army, they want to give the impression that their officers never testified before the inquiry officer. But it is too late for that, unless they can destroy all news reports of February 26, 2009, when the commandants of that base camp testified before the commisioner, then their attempts to backpaddle are futile. (click here to read the news report of that day).
> 
> Now that things did not go as they had planned, they want to spin it the other way and invoke some "Army act" to discredit the inquiry report, which fortunately they will not succeed in because Kashmiris are a million times smarter then these petty criminal Indian officers.
> 
> Guess who bought this line of their newest nonsense? The biased, communal minded and illogical Indian media.
> 
> Here is what a reporter named Sumir Kaul reported for the Press Trust of India (PTI) "Army refuses to be part of govt probe into J&K killings" was the headline, and this is how the story starts, "Army has refused to participate in the inquiry being conducted by the Jammu and Kashmir government...." (click here to read this biased reporting). It is very unlikely that a news organisation like PTI would be unaware that the army had already testified in the inquiry and that the inquiry has already been concluded and submitted to the government. The fact that they chose to report this story as though the inquiry was still ongoing, clearly exposes their bias and malicious intentions.
> 
> If people are not able to see through this mockery as a spin and an attempt to rewrite the outcome of the inquiry, then they need to pay a bit more attention. The Indian media is too biased and blinded by their hatred against Kashmiris to have the ethics to report honestly.
> 
> Contrast the above biased reporting with how Greater Kashmir, a Kashmiri newspaper, accurately reported the same story:
> 
> Here is what GK reported, "ARMY REJECTS BOMAI PROBE", was the headline, and this is how they developed the main part of the story, "The inquiry report is reported to have blamed the army personnel for not verifying the claims of their informers before shooting down the innocent civilians." (click here to read the full article)
> 
> I will leave it to the readers to decide for themselves whether they feel the Indian media is infact biased and unreliable.
> 
> Shame on Indian democracy and their biased media.
> 
> 
> Kashmir Truth Be Told Blog: Indian army mocks inquiry report




Dear Jana, Pls give us some reliable source and donot put comment from any thread or blog, because there are many thread only bashing India like this one.


----------



## brahmastra

Jana said:


> *Kashmiri people want azadi from India: IHK CM*
> 
> 
> By Iftikhar Gilani
> 
> NEW DELHI: *The Kashmiri people want azadi (freedom) from the Union of India, Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) Chief Minister Omar Abdullah has said*.
> 
> In an interview with the strategic journal, Force, Abdullah said he would facilitate engagement between New Delhi and the azadi sentiment. However, he added that people wanted freedom from New Delhi, not him or Ghulam Nabi Azad or Mufti Muhammad Sayed. He said trade across the Line of Control (LoC) was disappointing, describing it as not trade, but barter. If I send them stuff and am unable to call and track my payment, I am not in a position to supply goods to them, he said.
> 
> Unfriendly atmosphere: The chief minister said poor relations between India and Pakistan were the biggest hurdle to peace and development in Kashmir. He said relations between the two neighbours directly impact the levels of infiltration and violence in IHK. He also said the outcome of the Indian general elections would have a direct bearing on the situation in Jammu and Kashmir. If the government at the Centre changes, that can prove to be a little bit of a stumbling block along the way, he added.
> 
> Listing his priorities after the Lok Sabha elections, Abdullah said he would ensure the visible presence of military personnel was reduced, while state police adopted a more proactive role. He also called for the establishment of quick response teams to fight militancy.
> 
> No consistency: He also criticised successive regimes in New Delhi for lacking consistency in dealing with pro-freedom elements. Sometimes they are good, sometimes they are not. Sometimes we want to give them passports, sometimes we dont. I think there is a need to change this attitude, he said. Agreeing with the European Union (EU) assessment that Kashmir was not an administrative issue, he said the political dimensions of the issue need to be addressed. We made the mistake in the past of assuming the money was flowing in, the democratically elected government was in place, the violence levels were down so there was no Kashmir issue, he said, adding that regardless of the level of tourism, the flames of militancy would continue to rekindle without full understanding of the political dimensions.
> 
> *Army role:* On the recent standoff between his government and the army over the killing of two civilians, he said he wanted punishment for the guilty soldiers. We want the army to send out the right message. But if they want to respond in routine by transferring the guilty to another theatre, we will also respond in routine, he added.
> 
> 
> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan



Ha ha ha....

I thought Omar wants India and perticular Manmohan singh for J&K.


----------



## IndiaNews98

Exactly. J&K will be a model state in India, unlike Pakistani occupied part, which is still in the dark ages.


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## Spring Onion

*'Instructor in the art of killing' * 

*A young soldier recently stationed in Indian-administered Kashmir *describes the feelings of soldiers braving the cold at high altitudes as they wait to intercept militants. 



We have to go out, again. It is not easy going out night after night but I cannot really help feeling the debilitating effects of the cold. 





*First impressions of Kashmir 
Extra-judicial killings *

Our group comprises two different sets of people. 


One has the newcomers in it, the load carriers, who are being introduced to this kind of terrain and this way of operation. 

They are young boys from 18 to 22 years old. 

Then there are the old timers, men who have served their time here and are familiar with the surroundings and must be good since they have survived this long. 

Tedious 

I am a newcomer, not to this kind of operation but to this kind of terrain. 

*I slowly become accustomed to the cold, devise methods to ward off sleep, and have also begun to decipher shadows in the night, separating the real from the imaginary. 



When we do kill somebody, we rejoice and dance and hug each other 



Your views on this article 


It is quite tedious going out in the cold waiting, hoping for him to come out of nowhere... So that we can kill him. 

Every experienced soldier has a young one with him as his buddy. I also have a young boy with me. He is just a few months older than 19, comes from a family of farmers somewhere in central India, and joined the army to provide them with a livelihood*. 

I teach him the tricks of the trade: what to carry, what not to carry, how to wear his shoes so that they do not cut him, how many layers of clothing to wear so that we can remain warm and still not hindered when we want to move fast, what position to wait in so that we do not tire very fast, how to aim and fire so that the enemy may not escape... And many other seemingly trivial details. 

But when you are in a life and death situation, attention to detail can save lives - it could be the difference between this young man retuning home to see his family again or him returning home dead. 

I had always thought that I would enjoy teaching - but that was when I was thinking about teaching English literature. 

Here I am, teaching a young boy barely out of his teens how to kill - without fear, without pity, without remorse - just the way I was taught. 

*'Art of killing' 

After sometime the higher cause becomes obscure. After sometime you just start accepting the fact that every night we go out like primitive hunters hoping for a kill - it becomes a very natural thing to do, part of the routine. 

When we do kill somebody, we rejoice and dance and hug each other and pose with the dead body as if it was some trophy to be shown off. But we stop being human. 


Soldiers have to be ever-watchful for militant attacks 

As I sit there in the night, waiting... I think to myself 'how did it all come to this?' 

From a young boy who wanted to teach English literature, how did I end up becoming an instructor in the art of killing? *
Since when did death stop affecting me, when did I become so numb? I do not know... No answer comes. 

What I do know is that somewhere along the line I made decisions in life which have resulted me being here... In the dark, in the jungle, in the cold... Waiting... 


The soldier wished to remain anonymous. 


BBC NEWS | South Asia | 'Instructor in the art of killing'


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## fhassan

The Indian army has sure been busy.

May Allah save us from such evil.

Ameen.


----------



## Spring Onion

IBM said:


> Brother I-DUNE can u tel me one thing? Does this lady knows wat is written on those posters. They r in english.. where i can see, this lady seems to be uneducated and does't understand english. You can give anything to her and she will display. I have doubt on credibilty of this news....



The poster is for the world to know the brutalities of your Indian Army not for this woman as she already know your killer Indian army has killed her husband.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## adrenalin

I am new here, though not very new in this world. I would like to share a personal experience. I was in London for a project work, and I shared a 4BHK with a Pakistani. Let's call him XXX. The house was shared by a bloke from Portugal, one Chinese, Pakistani bhai and me an Indian.

We got along better than guys here in India, I am acquainted with.

There was no propaganda, no hate filled talk, no talks about how we were proud of our countries. We lived as one, shared meals, boozed, smoked, talked of white chicks, and even visited Gentleman's Club.

Now @idune, you gotta read "Lojja" (SHAME) by Taslima Nasreen, before commenting on atrocities by Indian Army. At the end of the day, we all are Wolves. We all are Humans.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## lamayuru

I came across this website and some associated content (videos/podcasts) showing to a large extent, how India has been high handed in its approach to solving the Kashmir problem, which she has thought fit over engaging the locals with a little more finesse. It basically has to do with how people in Kashmir Valley are using video mobiles and internet to report the so far under (un?) reported. My question to this audience would be whether such graphic detail helps anyone's cause in the end, or is it more fuel to the fire.

BBC World Service - Documentaries - New media in Kashmir


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## lamayuru

New media in Kashmir

The conflict in Kashmir has been reported over the years through traditional media channels like newspapers, radio and television, but over the two years there has been an explosion of citizen journalism.

Young men armed with their mobile phones are capturing every disturbance in the disputed state of Kashmir in an effort to combat what they see as restrictive policing.

In doing so, they have sent their images from phone to phone and loaded them on to the internet to reach an audience way beyond their borders.

The most famous of these is footage taken by a 15-year-old of mobile phone salesman Shaheed Tanveer after he was shot during a protest in 2008.

This footage of the incident, posted on YouTube, has subsequently become an important video for the disputed state's "cyber activists."

This documentary tells the story of new media communication in Indian administered Kashmir

Producer Suvojit Bagchi, a correspondent with BBC World Service based in Delhi, India meets the people behind the mobile phones and assesses the impact of their work.

New Media in Kashmir is part of the World Stories series. These are five individual documentaries made by BBC language service producers about the region they come from.

First broadcast on Friday 28 August 2009.


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## Nemesis

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Please look into the East Pakistan atrocity and genocide threads - plenty of rebuttals have been provided to the claims made about East Pakistan, and stay on topic please.



I was merely pointing out that the Indian army has never been *accused* of Genocide. It is on topic because i'm trying to suggest how futile it is to discuss such a topic when counter claims can be made about our neighbouring armies. 

PS - You talk of rebuttals, are you suggesting that the "stories" posted here by propaganda sites have not been refuted?


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## gogbot

Jana said:


> Omar Abdullah is again like his father an Indian puppet.
> 
> But still he spoke against Indian attrocities in Held Kashmir on some occasions.



Omar Abdullah is one of the few good Cm's , he is no puppet. If he says this stuff you have been posting, then why should i not believe him.

No one is perfect including Indian Army. I can quote examples in history where even when many army's had the best of intentions they ended up doing more harm then good. I admit there have been incidents but not to the level you describe.

It is historically known that using an army as a police force is not a good idea. The army is a blunt instrument when it comes to policing.
The only way this violence stops is when infiltrators into India, from Pakistan. stops and the army no longer need to police each city and district and can do what ever army's do between war's. And a local police fore is put in full command. That need to be the first step before Kashmir can share in India's economic growth more effectively. And the live of all Indians can improve.

Or Pakistani can keep pointing here whilst being the indirect cause.
You are morally in the same Grey as India. If you really care about what is happening to the Kashmir people, then convince your army to help India rid terrorism operating from their side.

Or you can just continue listing all the violence for what ever purpose

If Kashmir people, Indian citizens have been wronged than i expect, no demand action.
Omar Abdullah is out for the best interests of Kashmir people. He was elected by them to lead them. 

India as the only stable Democracy in the region needs to set the morale standards by which countries are governed.

So I ask you stop this thread now, and move on to something that is actually relevant to India Defence


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## EjazR

Asim Aquil said:


> It may be true... But I'm saying that freedom struggle or no freedom struggle, what do Kashmiris have to fear from fasting due to the separatists? That is unless they were hiding from the Indian Army!



Well in the valley, they have a tradition of this drummer who wakes people up for sehri. Because militancy was quite high and it was more likely to get shot at in the night, this tradition was not followed for 2 decades. Now that this has come down and most people have given up militancy, these drummers can continue that tradition.

I think this is a positive article for both India and Pakistan. Without Pakistan's commitment in closing down militant training camps and organizations, particularly during the Musharraf years, the situation would not have been like it is today.

So I believe both countries should be commended on this development.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Listened to this segment on BBC service on NPR in the US.

The segment mentioned this particular video as being massively popular and having a strong impact on Kashmiris.






Very emotional - 

*Let the Kashmiris decide their destiny as promised them!*

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

There is no 'stereotype' to reinforce here - the Kashmiris were promised self determination to choose which nation they wished to be a part of, and they need to be allowed to exercise that right.


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## arihant

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> There is no 'stereotype' to reinforce here - the Kashmiris were promised self determination to choose which nation they wished to be a part of, and they need to be allowed to exercise that right.



By seperating Gilgit-Baluchistan. By attacking in the independent Kashmir. Sending Terrorist to kill Kashmiris...


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

arihant said:


> By seperating Gilgit-Baluchistan. By attacking in the independent Kashmir. Sending Terrorist to kill Kashmiris...



1. Gilgit-Baluchistan has not been integrated into Pakistan - merely given autonomy, and since the UNSC resolutions cover it, a plebiscite would be held there as well.

I fail to see what your point about G-B has to do with the Indian denial of the right to self determination for Kashmir mandated by the UN and agreed to by India and Pakistan.

2. No terrorists have been sent into Kashmir - the insurgents are fighting an Indian occupation, since it is India that has reneged on its commitment to the right of self determination and unilaterally integrated J&K into India. 

True that some insurgents have crossed the line and killed innocents, but many more innocents have been raped, tortured and killed by Indian occupation forces.


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## jarnee

Obsession of kashmir has brought Pakistan to what it is today..


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

jarnee said:


> Obsession of kashmir has brought Pakistan to what it is today..



The US invasion of Afghanistan has brought Pakistan to where it is today.

But keep sidetracking the issue instead of introspecting and ending the occupation and allowing the Kashmiris self determination to resolve the dispute.

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## humblehobbes

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> 1. Gilgit-Baluchistan has not been integrated into Pakistan - merely given autonomy I am afraid you got it wrong, its Baltistan and not Baloch., and since the UNSC resolutions cover it, a plebiscite would be held there as well.
> 
> I fail to see what your point about G-B has to do with the Indian denial of the right to self determination for Kashmir mandated by the UN and agreed to by India and Pakistan.
> 
> Any change in a disputed region is bound to disturb the status quo. This has been acknowledged by JKLF chief himself, where he stated, that it was a shot thru the heart as far as Pakistan's decision of changing the statuses of Gilgit -Baltistan.
> 
> 2. No terrorists have been sent into Kashmir - the insurgents are fighting an Indian occupation, since it is India that has reneged on its commitment to the right of self determination and unilaterally integrated J&K into India.
> 
> By that statement, you are opening a pandora's box in this discussion. Its known all over about Pakistan's involvement in the so called Freedom Fight... Pakistan is responsible for most of the attacks in Indian held Kashmir thru its proxies LeT and Hizbul Mujahideen. Denial of this only shows an ignorance in current history. Point in case. After the Kandahar episode, the terrorists walked straight in to Pakistan unopposed.
> 
> True that some insurgents have crossed the line and killed innocents, but many more innocents have been raped, tortured and killed by Indian occupation forces.
> 
> By using the term insurgents, you are kind of contradicting yourself



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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Could you try and not do replies 'inline' since it makes quoting you harder?

And thanks for the correction, I meant Gilgit-Baltistan, I had jarnees post in my mind as well.


> Any change in a disputed region is bound to disturb the status quo. This has been acknowledged by JKLF chief himself, where he stated, that it was a shot thru the heart as far as Pakistan's decision of changing the statuses of Gilgit -Baltistan.



It does not disturb the status quo so long as Pakistan does not try to integrate it into Pakistan. The only thing the new G-B package has done is give the people of G-B more autonomy, which is hardly a bad thing.

What India did with J&K. integrating it into the constitution and making it an Indian state, was a violation of the UNSC resolutions declaring it disputed territory.



> By that statement, you are opening a pandora's box in this discussion. Its known all over about Pakistan's involvement in the so called Freedom Fight... Pakistan is responsible for most of the attacks in Indian held Kashmir thru its proxies LeT and Hizbul Mujahideen. Denial of this only shows an ignorance in current history. Point in case. After the Kandahar episode, the terrorists walked straight in to Pakistan unopposed.


Pakistan is a party to the Kashmir dispute - I see nothing wrong with Pakistan assissting Kashmiri freedom fighters/insurgents when India cast the first stone and violated teh UNSC resolutions by unilaterally integrating J&K into India and refusing to grant the Kashmiris the right to self determination.

In any case, since 2002 Pakistan has backed off in that support and violence has dropped dramatically, as has infiltration. Now lets see if India is interested in ending occupation and resolving the dispute.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Not sure if this has been posted yet:


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Accounts of IA torture:

OBPkHQSrWco[/media] - Caught in the Crossfire - Kashmir


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## humblehobbes

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It does not disturb the status quo so long as Pakistan does not try to integrate it into Pakistan. The only thing the new G-B package has done is give the people of G-B more autonomy, which is hardly a bad thing.


There is this point of inconsistency and consistency that has to be considered. Indian POV is that JK is an integral part of ROI and has to be within the framework of the constitution. There has been no shirking of ROI on its part while doing the same. But Pakistan has always maintained that Kashmiri's voice only matters. Wud that be the Muslim Kashmiris alone? Why were the Kashmir Pandits chased off their homelands? and if Pakistan is interested in a independant Kashmir, why is that Kashmir under Pakistani control is administered from Islamabad, instead of having its own flag and constitution and armed forces with defence and foreign affairs ministries held with Pakistani Support 



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Pakistan is a party to the Kashmir dispute - I see nothing wrong with Pakistan assissting Kashmiri freedom fighters/insurgents when India cast the first stone and violated teh UNSC resolutions by unilaterally integrating J&K into India and refusing to grant the Kashmiris the right to self determination.



Are the violation of UNSC resolutions considered as the primary reason of dispute, or was there something else that brought in the UNSC into the picture in the first place? You seem to have shifted the Starting point of this issue by a good distance by stating that.




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> In any case, since 2002 Pakistan has backed off in that support and violence has dropped dramatically, as has infiltration. Now lets see if India is interested in ending occupation and resolving the dispute.



Contradiction again, when you say Pakistan had supported violence. But lets not get into it again. It becomes a vicious cycle and deters meaningful debate!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

humblehobbes said:


> There is this point of inconsistency and consistency that has to be considered. Indian POV is that JK is an integral part of ROI and has to be within the framework of the constitution. There has been no shirking of ROI on its part while doing the same. But Pakistan has always maintained that Kashmiri's voice only matters. Wud that be the Muslim Kashmiris alone? Why were the Kashmir Pandits chased off their homelands? and if Pakistan is interested in a independant Kashmir, why is that Kashmir under Pakistani control is administered from Islamabad, instead of having its own flag and constitution and armed forces with defence and foreign affairs ministries held with Pakistani Support


There is no point of inconsistency here. While Kashmir remains disputed, it has to be administered, and to that end we have significant autonomy in Azad Kashmir and now G-B. Again, Pakistan is not integrating Kashmir or G-B into Pakistan, merely enacting administrative changes that give the people of the regions more autonomy.

As to the 'Independence' argument - no, Pakistan does not officially support independence since that is not an option in the UNSC resolutions on Kashmir.

The UNSC resolutions only offer two choices - part of Pakistan or part of India.



> Are the violation of UNSC resolutions considered as the primary reason of dispute, or was there something else that brought in the UNSC into the picture in the first place? You seem to have shifted the Starting point of this issue by a good distance by stating that.


The UNSC resolutions were neutral and agreed to by the global community, India and Pakistan. They are therefore the logical starting point and focus of discourse when it comes to ending the dispute.


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## humblehobbes

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> As to the 'Independence' argument - no, Pakistan does not officially support independence since that is not an option in the UNSC resolutions on Kashmir.
> 
> The UNSC resolutions only offer two choices - part of Pakistan or part of India.
> 
> 
> The UNSC resolutions were neutral and agreed to by the global community, India and Pakistan. They are therefore the logical starting point and focus of discourse when it comes to ending the dispute.



AM.. Going out for Dinner. Will give a detailed response later, But you seem to be taking all sides of the arguments and arguing and counter arguing everywhere. In this thread, you mention that Pakistan supports the Kashmiri movement for self determination and hence supported violence and now you say there are only 2 options. while this makes a good talking point in a court of Law or a bollywood court scene where i can refute your points, its not getting us anywhere with you arguing and counter arguing over the same point.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

humblehobbes said:


> AM.. Going out for Dinner. Will give a detailed response later, But you seem to be taking all sides of the arguments and arguing and counter arguing everywhere. In this thread, you mention that Pakistan supports the Kashmiri movement for self determination and hence supported violence and now you say there are only 2 options. while this makes a good talking point in a court of Law or a bollywood court scene where i can refute your points, its not getting us anywhere with you arguing and counter arguing over the same point.



I am not sure what the contradiction is - the UN called for a plebiscite with two options. Pakistan supports the UNSC resolutions and therefore supported the Kashmiri fight against Indian occupation since India reneged on her commitment to hold that plebiscite.

Enjoy dinner.


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## hack

Perhaps what should be done is what China has done in Tibet where they have moved in Han Chinese in droves...India should maybe do the same,remove article 370 and move mainland Indians into Kashmir.

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## arihant

hack said:


> Perhaps what should be done is what China has done in Tibet where they have moved in Han Chinese in droves...India should maybe do the same,remove article 370 and move mainland Indians into Kashmir.



Even Pakistan has done same as tibet.

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## lamayuru

@ AgNoStIc MuSliM & humblehobbes:

Gentlemen, thank you for your insights, but I feel the discussion has deviated somewhat from the original intent & from apparently nowhere UN resolutions and a brutal army and insurgents were lobbed into the mix. I will try and move the discussion to a different dimension. I have no idea what kind of people this forum attracts, but this MAY be one way to know.

I will be back on this page with some more context.


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## lamayuru

Here is some more perspective..

The BBC journo in Delhi has detailed how savvy & young Kashmiris from well to do families have resorted to tools available to them to paint India black, and hope to highlight their struggle. Citizen journalism has taken on a whole new meaning for them, it is their favoured tool in an assymetric battle of unequals. Both those points are troublesome, unless ofcourse we bring in foreign-hand-behind-all-ills into play here too, they are indigenous peoples. They are educated, resourceful and since they are young of age their attitudes are likely to persist for a long time. I have not been able to reach a conclusive answer to forces driving this state of affairs.

- Imagine a Human Rights campaigner in some European Parliament pandering to a all-is-not-well-with-this-world audience. Coming as it does now from the feeble (a 15 year old), to the world it MUST sound like one of the big expose' of our times. A contemporary rendition of David vs Goliath.

Now, if someone representing a credible foreign concern can go all the way and speak with the creators of the incriminating evidence as well as the PR Officer of the CRPF ( and more than the BBC, the British have a reputation of backing the underdog, google: "asylum capital of the world" ) what stops him from 'exposing' the authorities heavy handedness in Kashmir, should he be so inclined?

Also what hitherto unknown are these boys trying to expose? In his own words the 15 yr old says that he did it to impress his friends with the rarity of being at such a place at such a time. I dont think he did it for 'self determination'. But somewhere along the way as it moved from the mobile to youtube and elsewhere, it was painted to be so by people along the way.

- These people along the way, who set the tone for a viewer, you know:

'Rare Footage: Unlucky man got shot' which may rank on the same scale of being exotic as say 'Rare Footage: Live at road accident'
is painted as
'Shaheed .. Brutal repressive state.. '
etc

Looking for the driving force behind this intent, how someone colours our perception, I am trying to find out why the youth are doing this. It may be seen as a plea for fairness from some higher power outside or is it a more fundamental problem of dignity ( putting up with a mentally stressed & quantitatively overwhelming military presence intruding Kashmiri lives, frisking them repeatedly etc. ) and stress from living in a war torn zone, whereby these young are settling scores with the state by humiliating it morally?

- From one point of view, India should be credited for the fact that it allows such 'excursions' at all (suitably 'monitered'), under it's very nose. Not many countries can claim that, given that other world capitals are usually home to dissidents from various regimes, where they operate in a freer environment with possible backing and support of their host (Rebiya Kadeer, Dalai Lama et al). In the podcast itself some Kashmiri journo claimed that though 'sophisticated' methods of reigning folks in are being used, they breath easy, for now. 

- Do these smart kids not realise that this may not be the best course of action? That is why my question as to whether these videos solve any purpose in the end other than fueling feelings of hate & revenge among its viewers. I must add from first hand experience that there is no love lost between the Government machinery and citizens on this side of the Radcliffe line. The dichotomy of the Indian state is that it can be a very hard state to live in, on a measure of how it treats its citizens, yet is infamously perceived as a soft state ( capitulating to hijackers more than once). The Gujjars successfully led a unarmed resistance against an apathetic Govt for reservations (positive discrimination if you will), within the Indian framework, why don't these kids replicate that? I mean a more Nelson Mandela way to a settlement over this brick for brick, eye for eye approach.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

quomitarana said:


> If the people here would try to be constructive, even I would.
> 
> But unfortunately, the atmosphere is not constructive. I am here as long as you want me to be. You are the moderator. That means you are God of the forum.



People have been constructive, you have chosen to only focus on the trolls, post inane responses, and therefore troll yourself.

The discussion on this thread at least has focused on civil debate, yet you could not manage to contribute constructively.

Bye.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> Do these smart kids not realise that this may not be the best course of action?



Has India offered another course of action? Has India indicated it might be open to the idea of the Kashmiris being allowed their right of self-determination?

Would you rather they take up arms and use violence? 

Where is the discussion on what the Indian state can do to resolve the Kashmir dispute with Pakistan, that provides the background for both non-violent and violent protests?

Even keeping in mind that some of the footage might well have been taken without the prospect of it being used as a form of 'protest', the fact remains that enough sentiment against occupation and in favor of self-determination exists to utilize the media, both accidentally and deliberately.


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## Peshwa

I agree with the above recommendation from Hack.....we have been fair in restricting movements of people from other parts of India into Kashmir.....I think Pakistan has not followed the same and allowed people from all over its lands settle in Kashmir....
I think the point is we have the land of Kashmir that belongs to India....What we want is to win over the Kashmiri's.....I feel India has been going about it the wrong way.....

Economic benefit/welfare is the greatest incentive.....No matter who you are.....

Ecomomic warfare was how the British colonized India.....something us Indians failed to learn....

1)We should be providing incentives to Kashmiri's to move out of Kashmir.....move to various parts of India for jobs/employment.....provide Kashmiri entrepreneurs lucrative opportunities to start businesses.....Quotas in universities for education to Kashmiri youth.....etc etc....I can go on

2)Start repatriation of militants.....try to get them "militants" on the table and ask them about their demands....I dont understand why we deal with Pakistan....as though they represent the demands of the common Kashmiri (They only care about what they want as the fate for Kashmiri's).....see what India can do to better the life of Kashmiri's in return for giving up weapons and going public about Pakistan's role in sponsoring terrorism through this.....
(I saw the movie "Body of Lies" recently and it showed how kindness and generosity worked much better to turn possible militants onto the right side as opposed to the heavy handedness that the CIA used)

4) Allow even the militants/radicals to have the opportunity to be elected through the democratic process in an effort to channel their concerns and views to the central govt....but under the banner of India and Indian constitution


3) Provide more autonomy to the Kashmiri's to deal with their state....but keeping within the boundaries of Indian constitution, laws and regualtions.....

India's greatest strength is its economic clout.....we should utilize it to motivate people to want to be aligned with us!!!
If a Kashmiri is progressing economically in India....what reason would he/she have to join Pakistan and its mess??
For religion?? I feel members here are under the wrong impression that mere religious affiliation will motivate someone to drop their life/home/families and move to country that yet has to figure out its own problems, let alone that of a new state/ people....This is not 1947 nor are we the India of the past.....remember "money is god!!!"

Lets make the Kashmiri's dependent on India such that no amount of "jihad" sponsored by Pak can move them.......
The only thing Pakistan has going for it is their fake fight for "the right of the Kashmiri's"
I can bet anyone here to tell me what benefits Kashmiri's will have of being affiliated or joining with Pakistan over India??

If we want to be a true superpower, we have to understand the power of Money and learn to use it to our advantage!!!
Lets be economic hitmen for a change!!!

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> I think Pakistan has not followed the same and allowed people from all over its lands settle in Kashmir....



Any stats indicating the extent of such immigration, or is it just opinion based on a few isolated cases that had no major impact on the demographics?


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## lamayuru

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Has India offered another course of action? Has India indicated it might be open to the idea of the Kashmiris being allowed their right of self-determination?
> 
> Would you rather they take up arms and use violence?
> 
> Where is the discussion on what the Indian state can do to resolve the Kashmir dispute with Pakistan, that provides the background for both non-violent and violent protests?
> 
> Even keeping in mind that some of the footage might well have been taken without the prospect of it being used as a form of 'protest', the fact remains that enough sentiment against occupation and in favor of self-determination exists to utilize the media, both accidentally and deliberately.



The path (from the example I gave) goes from:
The Hindu : Other States / Rajasthan News : Gujjars take to agitation seeking ST status
to:
Gujjar reservation bill introduced in Rajasthan Assembly | NewsX


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

lamayuru said:


> The path (from the example I gave) goes from:
> The Hindu : Other States / Rajasthan News : Gujjars take to agitation seeking ST status
> to:
> Gujjar reservation bill introduced in Rajasthan Assembly | NewsX


That 'path' is essentially what has existed since India reneged on its commitment to the UNSC resolutions and plebsicite.

Kashmir is the most heavily subsidized state in terms of per-capita expense already is it not? And enjoys special status under the Indian constitution. What more does this 'path' offer?


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## lamayuru

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That 'path' is essentially what has existed since India reneged on its commitment to the UNSC resolutions and plebsicite.
> 
> Kashmir is the most heavily subsidized state in terms of per-capita expense already is it not? And enjoys special status under the Indian constitution. What more does this 'path' offer?



The answer to that would be quantifying 'what more is required to be offered'? It is a state of happiness to enjoy some Govt largess in a third world country. Besides, there is no restriction on religion, enterprise or culture. Infact the defining idea of India was as an amalgam of many cultures - roughly one culture would be one religion, and here there is a clutch of them, so a vast majority seem to be doing quite OK. 

Outside of the broken promise of plebiscite which is a moral dilemma, what gives ? To lead up to the present confrontation? The average God fearing Kashmiri should be atleast as happy in India as he would be in Pakistan if not more. To suggest human rights violations would be putting the cart before the horse, if you know what I mean.

To some guy it may look like the Kashmiris are just looking to pick up a fight at any pretext. So it is down to hooliganism on streets with Amarnath Shrine board etc. People are used to public venting of their anger and taking on the security forces, literally, in a show-us-what-you-got kind of way.

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## Peshwa

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Any stats indicating the extent of such immigration, or is it just opinion based on a few isolated cases that had no major impact on the demographics?



India in its effort to preserve the Kashmiri's and Kashmir from being diluted has passed Article 370 more.....Same cannot be said about Pakistan.... unless you can show me proof!!....

Besides we all know how easily one can be made "Kashmiri" in the sub-continent....forging papers/birth certificates/ID cards is very common. 

So I throw it back to you....how can you prove to us that Pakistani Kashmiri's are actually "Kashmiri"...in fact I am going to go ahead and say that there is a good chance that the "Militant Mujahideen" fighting and infiltrating are not even Kashmiri....they could be Pushtun, Baloch, Punjabi......Do you have any proof except Pakistani propoganda reports to prove that the insurgency is actually "Kashmiri"?


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## Lamayurugoaway

What gives? I'll tell you. 

The leaders of this so-called movement, who misuse public forums and religous institutions to instill a hostile attitude towards India in general, and Hindus in particular.


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## Lamayurugoaway

Of course, these leaders spend half their time in our dear western neighbour. Soaking up the hospitality, as they say.


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## Lamayurugoaway

Amazing how much newsprint a tiny 30 by 60 miles of land can generate, thanks to the efforts of our friendly neighbours. 

I guess we could have gone the Pakistani way and had the top separatist brass assassinated, but something tells me that would be counterproductive. Maybe its the fact that Balochistan is currentl going up in flames entirely on its own, thanks to some recent high-profile assassinations by the Pakistani intelligence. Good going Pak. Make martyrs out of them, while we in India just hope that they'll eventually die of old age, or if we're lucky, a stress-induced heart attack.


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## zombie

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> 1. Gilgit-Baluchistan has not been integrated into Pakistan - merely given autonomy, and since the UNSC resolutions cover it, a plebiscite would be held there as well.
> 
> I fail to see what your point about G-B has to do with the Indian denial of the right to self determination for Kashmir mandated by the UN and agreed to by India and Pakistan.



So what prevents Pakistan from having a plebiscite in Gligit-Baltistan? Are you waiting for India's approval? Give them independence you always hypocritically cry for them. Nice way to snap up northen kashmir and prevent giving them their independence in the pretext of inability to grab more land from India.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> 2. No terrorists have been sent into Kashmir - the insurgents are fighting an Indian occupation, since it is India that has reneged on its commitment to the right of self determination and unilaterally integrated J&K into India.
> 
> True that some insurgents have crossed the line and killed innocents, but many more innocents have been raped, tortured and killed by Indian occupation forces.



Good to know that you have proclaimed yourself the judge. Oh and you have given the verdict also. Very amusing indeed.
Terrorism has been used by Pakistan for its goal to grab Kashmir from India. This is the first time state terrorism has been used by a country for dispute with another and Pakistan is even shameless about it. Add to it religious ideology as another tool for political agenda. 

As for Indian forces idulging in torture well Pakistan army hasnt been shy from indulging in rape and torture isnt it? One thing the Indian army could learn from Pakistan army is how to bomb entire villages to root out "terrorists".

Frankly neither pakistans nor those vile pieces of thrash who killed / drove away 300,000 of their fellow citizens in the name of religion deserve any pity.


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## Lamayurugoaway

^^^^^word. Make that 400,000. Still living as refugees. Nobody cares for them, while these Kashmiris get all the perks and previliges to go out in the street and attack their own police. Bloody brainwashed idiots. 

I tell you, this "muslim youth problem" is there throughout the world. There is something seriously wrong with the way Islam is being preached in mosques across the world. This is where the Jehadi mindset stems from. The idea the somehow, muslims are opposed to the society that they live in, that the only way to achieve pure-ness is to eliminate all the kaffir pollutants.

Only a regime-change in the holy land- Saudi Arabia, can put an end to all this bullshit.


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## lamayuru

Lamayurugoaway said:


> ^^^^^word. Make that 400,000. Still living as refugees. Nobody cares for them, while these Kashmiris get all the perks and previliges to go out in the street and attack their own police. Bloody brainwashed idiots.
> 
> I tell you, this "muslim youth problem" is there throughout the world. There is something seriously wrong with the way Islam is being preached in mosques across the world. This is where the Jehadi mindset stems from. The idea the somehow, muslims are opposed to the society that they live in, that the only way to achieve pure-ness is to eliminate all the kaffir pollutants.
> 
> Only a regime-change in the holy land- Saudi Arabia, can put an end to all this bullshit.



If you want to bring in the regime in Saudi to this thread, then you have to contend with the fact that it is propped up by the US, in the great game for oil. That is a win-win for both US, US Oil refining/marketing companies, US consumer and in fact the global consumer (US can assume some leverage in 'regulating' oil prices downward) & the Saudi royalty. The Saudi experience may also show that a financially rich populace is still vulnerable to firebrand (Wahhabi) Islam. Money may NOT be a cure all.


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## Lamayurugoaway

lamayuru said:


> If you want to bring in the regime in Saudi to this thread, then you have to contend with the fact that it is propped up by the US, in the great game for oil. That is a win-win for both US, US Oil refining/marketing companies, US consumer and in fact the global consumer (US can assume some leverage in 'regulating' oil prices downward) & the Saudi royalty. The Saudi experience may also show that a financially rich populace is still vulnerable to firebrand (Wahhabi) Islam. Money may NOT be a cure all.



That's true. The epicenter of radicalism is a US ally. "Irony" is too mild a term to describe such a gigantic fcukup.


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## lamayuru

Lamayurugoaway said:


> That's true. The epicenter of radicalism is a US ally. "Irony" is too mild a term to describe such a gigantic fcukup.



The epicenter would have to be post Zia Pakistan, that got religion more than its fair share in politics. Saudi/US may have provided the finance and philosophy, but that may be merely grease compared to powerful people in Pakistan that embraced it whole heartedly. Implemented it, institutionalised it & made it state foreign policy. That coupled with Pakistan not being able to rid itself of a feudal society 

Chowk: Society: Views of an Indian in Pakistan

may have been chiefly responsible for the large pool of recruits she offers jihadi organisations.


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## Halaku Khan

Dear friends, please spare a moment to feel the anguish of those Kashmiris who are being tortured by Jihadis. This thread is dedicated to such stories. I had started this thread before, but it seems to have disappeared! I hope the mods will not censor it. 

-----------------------------------
*Jihadis slaughter toddler, grandmother*


*Omar Abdullah sees hypocrisy in separatists silence over toddlers killing*

July 24th, 2009 - 6:23 pm ICT by ANI 

Srinagar, July 24 (ANI): Reacting sharply to the killing of a toddler and his father by Hizbul militants, Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah on Friday termed the silence of separatist leaders over the barbaric killing in Shopian town as hypocritical.

Why are separatist leaders silent on this issue? Where are Yasin Malik and other separatist leaders? This is the worst form of hypocritical politics, Omar said while

*Arif, 3, was killed when his father Aslam Awam was fired upon indiscriminately by Hizbul militants and the toddler was in his lap when the incident took place.

Hizbul Mujahideen were on a lookout for Aslam and had made an attempt on his life on the intervening night of April 14-15 also.

Though he managed to escape death, the militants killed his 60-year-old mother Reshma.*

Omar said the separatists would have taken a different stand, if the child had been accidentally killed in firing by security forces. (ANI)


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## vsdoc

Any declaration ..... official or not ..... from the Indian side, would or would not come after the side which started the hostilities first in 1947 first unilaterally withdrew all forces and "players" from the part of kashmir they usurped first.

In financial ledger as well as supply chain management terms its called FIFO .... First In, First Out.

Cheers, Doc

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## glomex

PAHALGAM, India  In a famous picnic spot south of the summer capital of Indian Kashmir, the locals are back in force, having fun in scenes that were unimaginable during the dark days of the insurgency here.
For the first time in two decades, the people on the Indian side of this divided region live in relative peace, with tourists a more common sight and trekkers returning to the Himalayas that form a backdrop to life here.
"We are loving this peace," said Imtiaz Ahmed, one of eight men playing football on the shores of the Lidder river in Pahalgam, about 100 kilometres (62 miles) from the capital Srinigar.
Used to living in fear with restrictions on their movements, Kashmiris are re-discovering freedom as violence declines in this conservative Muslim-majority region once described by a 17th-century visiting emperor as a "paradise on earth."
While militant attacks still take place -- a grenade and a shooting incident in Srinigar this week left two policemen dead and nearly 30 others injured -- violence has fallen to the lowest level since 1989 when the rebellion began.
According to official police records published on Monday, killings have dropped to one a day from 10 daily in 2001 and a peak of 13 in 1996 when the anti-India insurgency was at its height.
College girls, many wearing make-up and some in Western-style dresses, stroll near the picnic site.
"This place is paradise and it is so beautiful when it's peaceful," said Nayeema Firdous as fellow students chanted Bollywood film songs.
Local tourist officials say they are turning away visitors from state-owned accommodation because they have no rooms left.
During the peak days of militancy, the area was deserted, forcing some shopkeepers out of businesses.
"The rush to Pahalgam is unprecedented," said Rouf Ahmed, a senior tourism official.
The spot has had its share of violence, including four attacks between 1999 and 2001 on Hindu pilgrims trekking that left over 60 people dead.
Six foreign tourists were abducted by rebels near Pahalgam in 1995. One escaped, one was beheaded and four others were never traced and are presumed dead.
Kashmiri violence has its roots in the partition of the subcontinent in 1947 when the Hindu leader of the Muslim-majority region opted to join India instead of Pakistan.
The region is now split between the two countries along a UN-monitored line of control, but both sides claim it in full and have fought two wars over the its control.
The struggle against Indian rule has left more than 47,000 people dead since it began in 1989, according to official figures. Human rights groups put the toll at 70,000 dead and missing.
Security officials acknowledge the recent change, though there are no plans to reduce troop levels.
"The level of violence has come down and there are significant signs of normalcy in Kashmir," says Indian army spokesman J.S. Brar.
He attributes the turnaround to "people's desire for peace and more effective counter-insurgency tactics."
"More and more people are providing us with information about militants," he added.
Many link the decline in violence to a peace process started between India and Pakistan in 2004 to resolve all their pending disputes, including the one on Kashmir.
India has put a pause on the process, however, after last year's deadly Mumbai attacks which it blames on Pakistan-based militants.
In Srinagar, Tariq Dar, a 34-year-old engineer who grew up during the worst of the violence, said the calm was "bringing smiles to all the faces here."
At dawn, he and his friends set out for a daily morning walk in a picturesque area of the city that until recently was out of bounds because of its proximity to the residences of top politicians.
"I had never imagined that this road would be reopened. It signals peace is here to stay," says Dar, who aspires for an independent Kashmir state.
Later in the day, hundreds of residents could be spotted in Mughal-built gardens on the shores of Lake Dal, again enjoying picnics with their families.
The few liquor shops that have reopened are doing brisk business and in the evenings, young men and women crowd restaurants that used to shut by 6pm during the peak of unrest.
After the insurgency erupted in 1989, 51-year-old Abdul Rashid tried unsuccessfully to sell his ornately handcarved tourist houseboat to feed his family.
He is now grateful as visitors return and is leading trekkers up the mountains that were once considered too dangerous to visit.
"Going back to these mountains was my big wish. Thanks to Allah, the peace has made it happen," he said.
In 1988 more than 700,000 foreign and Indian tourists visited Kashmir, but the number declined sharply as the insurgency intensified.
Now the tide appears to be turning again.
In 2007, nearly 450,000 tourists visited, followed by 550,000 a year later. And in the first seven months of 2009 more than 380,000 tourists had already come to sample the pure air and breathtaking views.

AFP: Kashmiris relish drop in violence

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## vsdoc

It is a peace paid for in full by the blood of countless Indians. Hope our Kashmiri brothers appreciate it and use it well.

Cheers, Doc

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## Awesome

> "We are loving this peace," said Imtiaz Ahmed, one of eight men playing football on the shores of the Lidder river in Pahalgam, about 100 kilometres (62 miles) from the capital Srinigar. Used to living in fear with restrictions on their movements, Kashmiris are re-discovering freedom as violence declines in this conservative Muslim-majority region once described by a 17th-century visiting emperor as a "paradise on earth."



Note that the Kashmiris are relishing the removal of the restrictions imposed by the Indians upon them. So whose violence has reduced, really?

I guess India will take the score wherever they can get it. Another freebie.


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## vsdoc

Its only a matter of time when Kashmiris on the other side of the LOC start wanting the same.

Its only human.

Cheers, Doc


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## glomex

Asim Aquil said:


> Note that the Kashmiris are relishing the removal of the restrictions imposed by the Indians upon them. So whose violence has reduced, really?
> 
> I guess India will take the score wherever they can get it. Another freebie.



Well who can stop anyone from scoring.... Terrorism over...just like it happened in Punjab....remember Kahalistan movement was crushed and now Punjab is one of the richest state..... Terrorism has to be dealt the way Sri Lanka dealt with LTTE....A bullet to their head....and then peace prevails....

The first part in Kashmir is over...now its time for second part...

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## vsdoc

glomex said:


> The first part in Kashmir is over...now its time for second part...



Exactly true brother.

And after that, Part 3 for sustained peace.

Cheers, Doc

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## idune

*The Myth of Indian Claim to JAMMU AND KASHMIR &#8211;&#8211;A REAPPRAISAL*

by Alistair Lamb 

The formal overt Indian intervention in the internal affairs of the State of Jammu and Kashmir began on about 9.00 a.m. on 27 October 1947, when Indian troops started landing at Srinagar airfield. India has officially dated the commencement of its claim that the State was part of Indian sovereign territory to a few hours earlier, at some point in the afternoon or evening of 26 October. From their arrival on 27 October 1947 to the present day, Indian troops have continued to occupy a large proportion of the State of Jammu and Kashmir despite the increasingly manifest opposition of a majority of the population to their presence. To critics of India&#8217;s position and actions in the State of Jammu and Kashmir the Government of New Delhi has consistently declared that the State of Jammu and Kashmir lies entirely within the sphere of internal Indian policy. Do the facts support the Indian contention in this respect? 

The State of Jammu and Kashmir was a Princely State within the British Indian Empire. By the rules of the British transfer of power in Indian subcontinent in 1947 the Ruler of the State, Maharajah Sir Hari Singh, with the departure of the British and the lapsing of Paramountcy (as the relationship between State and British Crown was termed), could opt to join either India or Pakistan or, by doing nothing, become from 15 August 1947 the Ruler of an independent polity. The choice was the Ruler&#8217;s and his alone: there was no provision for popular consultation in the Indian Princely States during the final days of the British Raj. On 15th August 1947, by default, the State of Jammu and Kashmir became independent. 

India maintains that this period of independence, the existence of which it has never challenged effectively, came to an end on 26/27 October as the result of two pairs of closely related transactions, which we must now examine. They are: 

(a) an Instrument of Accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India which the Maharajah is alleged to have signed on 26 October 1947, and; 

(b) the acceptance of this Instrument by the Governor-General of India, Lord Mountbatten, on 27 October 1947; plus 

(c) a letter from the Maharajah to Lord Mountbatten, dated 26 October 1947, in which Indian military aid is sought in return for accession to India (on terms stated in an allegedly enclosed Instrument) and the appointment of Sheikh Abdullah to head an Interim Government of the State; and 

(d) a letter from Lord Mountbatten to the Maharajah, dated 27 October 1947, acknowledging the above and noting that, once the affairs of the State have been settled and law and order is restored, &#8220;the question of the State&#8217;s accession should be settled by a reference to the people.&#8221; 

In both pairs of documents it will be noted that the date of the communication from the Maharajah, be it the alleged Instrument of Accession or the letter to Lord Mountbatten, is given as 26 October 1947, that is to say before the Indian troops actually began overtly to intervene in the State&#8217;s affairs on the morning of 27 October 1947. It has been said that Lord Mountbatten insisted on the Maharajah&#8217;s signature as a precondition for his approval of Indian intervention in the affairs of what would otherwise be an independent State. 

The date, 26 October 1947, has hitherto been accepted as true by virtually all observers, be they sympathetic or hostile to the Indian case. It is to be found in an official communication by Lord Mountbatten, as Governor General of Pakistan, on 1 November 1947; and it is repeated in the White paper on Jammu and Kashmir which the Government of India laid before the Indian Parliament in March 1948. Pakistani diplomats have never challenged it. Recent research, however, has demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that the date is false. This fact emerges from the archives, and it is also quite clear from such sources as the memoirs of the Prime Minister of Jammu and Kashmir at the time, Mehr Chand Mahajan, and the recently published correspondence of Jawaharlal Nehru, the Indian Prime Minister. Circumstantial accounts of the events of 26 October 1947, notably that of V.P Menon (in his The Integration of the Indian States, London 1965), who said he was actually present when the Maharajah signed, are simply not true. 

It is now absolutely clear that the two documents (a) the Instrument of Accession, and (c) the letter to Lord Mountbatten, could not possibly have been signed by the Maharajah of Jammu and Kashmir on 26 October 1947. The earliest possible time and date for their signature would have to be the afternoon of 27 October 1947. During 26 October 1947 the Maharajah of Jammu and Kashmir was travelling by road from Srinagar to Jammu. His Prime Minister, M.C. Mahajan, who was negotiating with the Government of India, and the senior Indian official concerned in State matters, V.P. Menon, were still in New Delhi where they remained overnight, and where their presence was noted by many observers. There was no communication of any sort between New Delhi and the traveling Maharajah. Menon and Mahajan set out by air from New Delhi to Jammu at about 10.00 a.m. on 27 October, and the Maharajah learned from them for the first time the result of his Prime Minister&#8217;s negotiations in New Delhi in the early afternoon of that day. 

The key point, of course, a has already been noted above, is that it is now obvious that these documents could only have been signed after the overt Indian intervention in the State of Jammu and Kashmir. When the Indian troops arrived at Srinagar air field, that State was still independent. Any agreements favourable to India signed after such intervention cannot escape the charge of having been produced under duress. It was, one presumes, to escape just such a charge that the false date 26 October 1947 was assigned to these two documents. The deliberately distorted account of that very senior Indian official, V.P. Menon, to which reference has already been made, was no doubt executed for the same end. Falsification of such a fundamental element as date of signature, however, once established, can only cast grave doubt over the validity of the document as a whole . 

An examination of the transactions behind these four documents in the light of the new evidence produces a number of other serious doubts. It is clear, for example, that in the case of (c) and (d), the exchange of letters between the Maharajah and Lord Mountbatten, Lord Mountbatten&#8217;s reply must antedate the letter to which it is an answer unless, as seems more than probable, both were drafted by the Government of India before being taken up to Jammu on 27 October 1947 (by V.P. Menon and Jammu and Kashmir Prime Minister M.C. Mahajan, whose movements, incidentally, are correctly reported in the London Times of 28 October 1947) after the arrival of the Indian troops at Srinagar airfield. The case is very strong, therefore, that document (c), the Maharajah&#8217;s letter to Lord Mountbatten, was dictated to the Maharajah. 

Documents (c) and (d) were published by the Government of India on 28 October 1947. The far more important document (a), the alleged Instrument of Accession, was not published until many years later, if at all. It was not communicated to Pakistan at the outset of the overt Indian intervention in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, nor was it presented in facsimile to the United Nations in early 1948 as part of the initial Indian reference to the Security Council. The 1948 White Paper in which the Government of India set out its formal case in respect to the State of Jammu and Kashmir, does not contain the Instrument of Accession as claimed to have been signed by the Maharajah: instead, it reproduces an unsigned from of Accession such as, it is imposed, the Maharajah might have signed. To date no satisfactory original of this Instrument as signed by the Maharajah ever did sign an Instrument of Accession. There are, indeed, grounds for suspecting that he did no such thing. The Instrument of Accession referred to in document (c); a letter which as we have seen was probably drafted by Indian officials prior to being shown to the Maharajah, may never have existed, and can hardly have existed when the letter was being prepared. 

Even if there had been an Instrument of Accession, then if it followed the form indicated in the unsigned example of such an Instrument published in the Indian 1948 White Paper it would have been extremely restrictive in the rights conferred upon the Government of India. All that were in fact transferred from the State to the Government of India by such an Instrument were the powers over Defence, Foreign Relations and certain aspects of Communications. Virtually all else was left with the State Government. Thanks to Article 370 of the Indian Constitution of January 1950 (which, unlike much else relating to the former Princely States, has survived to some significant degree in current Indian constitution theory, if not in practice), the State of Jammu and Kashmir was accorded a degree of autonomy which does not sit at all comfortably with the current authoritarian Indian administration of those parts of the State which it holds. 

Not only would such an Instrument have been restrictive, but also by virtue of the provisions, of (d), Lord Mountbatten&#8217;s letter to the Maharajah dated 27 October 1947, it would have been conditional. Lord Mountbatten, as Governor-General of India, made it clear that the State of Jammu and Kashmir would only be incorporated permanently within the Indian fold after approval as a result of some form of reference to the people, a procedure which soon (with United Nations participation) became defined as a fair and free plebiscite . India has never permitted such a reference to the people to be made. 

Why would the Maharajah of Jammu and Kashmir not have signed an Instrument of Accession? The answer lies in the complex course of events of August, September and October 1947 emerged. The Maharajah, confronted with growing internal disorder (including a full scale rebellion in the Poonch region of the State), sought Indian military help without, it at all possible, surrendering his own independence. The Government of India delayed assisting him in the hope that in despair he would accede to India before any Indian actions had to be taken. In the event, India had to move first. Having secured what he wanted, Indian military assistance, the Maharajah would naturally have wished to avoid paying the price of the surrender of his independence by signing any instrument which he could possibly avoid signing. From the Afternoon of 27 October 1947 onwards a smoke screen conceals both the details and the immediate outcome of this struggle of wills between the Government of India and the Maharajah of Jammu and Kashmir. To judge from the 1948 White Paper an Instrument of accession may not have been signed by March 1948, by which time the Indian case for sovereignty over Jammu and Kashmir was already being argued before the United Nations. 

The patently false dates of documents (a) and (c) alter fundamentally the nature of the overt Indian intervention in Jammu and Kashmir on 27 October 1947. India was not defending its own but intervening in a foreign State. There can be no reasonable doubt that had Pakistan been aware of this falsification of the record it would have argued very differently in international for from the outset of the dispute; and had the United Nations understood the true chronology it would have listened with for less sympathy to arguments presented to it by successive Indian representatives. Given the facts as they are now known, it may well be that an impartial international tribunal would decided that India had no right at all to be in the State of Jammu and Kashmir. 


The Indian Claim to Jammu and Kashmir - Conditional Accession, Plebiscites and the Reference to the United Nations:

While the date, and perhaps even the fact, of the accession to India of the State of Jammu and Kashmir in late October 1947 can be questioned, there is no dispute that at that time any such accession was presented to the world large as conditional and provisional. In his letter to the Maharajah of Jammu and Kashmir, bearing the date 27 October 1947, the Governor General of India, Lord Mountbatten, declared that: 

"Consistently with that in the case of any State where the issue of accession has been the subject of dispute, the question of accession should be decided in accordance to the wishes of the people of the State, it is my Government&#8217;s wish that as soon as law and order have been restored in Kashmir and her soil cleared of the invaders the question of the State&#8217;s accession should be settled by a reference to the people." 

The substance of this was communicated by Jawaharlal Nehru to Liaquat Ali Khan in a telegram of 28 October 1947 in which Nehru indicated that this was a policy with which he agreed. The point is clear enough. A reference to the people would be entirely futile unless it contained the potential of reversing the process of accession. If the people opted for Pakistan, or indeed, for continued independence, then any documents relating to accession which the Maharajah may have signed would be null and void. Such documents would perforce be provisional, in that they could confer rights only until the reference to the people took place; and they were conditional in that they could not continue in force indefinitely unless ratified by popular vote. This point is as valid today as it was in late October 1947. 

Indian apologists have since endeavored to argue that the plebiscite proposal was personal to Mountbatten (which we can see it was not) and that it was in a real sense ex-gratia and in no way binding on subsequent Indian administrations. The fact of the matter, however, was that the plebiscite policy had been established long before the Kashmir crisis erupted in October 1947. It was an inherent part of the process by which the British Indian Empire was partitioned between the two successor Dominions of India and Pakistan. Plebiscites (or referenda-the terms tended to be used at this time as if they meant the same thing) had been held on the eve of the Transfer of Power in August 1947 in two areas. In the North West Frontier Province, which possessed a Congress Government despite a virtually total Muslim population, and in Sylhet, a Muslim majority district of the non-Muslim majority Province of Assam, there had been plebiscites where the people were given the choice of joining India or Pakistan. In both cases the vote was in favour of Pakistan. The Sylhet Plebiscite is of particular significance in that it gave a Muslim majority district of a State with an overall non-Muslim majority the opportunity to join its Muslim majority neighbour, Bengal. 

The value of the plebiscitary process continued to be appreciated in India after the British Indian Empire had come to an end. In September 1947 the Government of India advocated, as a matter of policy, the holding of a plebiscite in the Princely State of Junagadh. Junagadh was in many respects the mirror image of Kashmir. Here a Muslim Ruler, the Nawab, had formally acceded to Pakistan on 15 August 1947 despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of his subjects were Hindus. The Government of India were united in opposing this action. However, as Jawaharlal Nehru put it on 30 September 1947 : 

"We are entirely opposed to war and wish to avoid it. We want an amicable settlement of this issue and we propose therefore, that wherever there is a dispute in regard to any territory, the matter should be decided by a referendum or plebiscite of the people concerned. We shall accept the result of this referendum whatever it may be as it is our desire that a decision should be made in accordance with the wishes of the people concerned. We invite the Pakistan Government, therefore, to submit the Junagadh issue to a referendum of the people under impartial auspices." 

In Indian eyes, in other words, Junagadh&#8217;s accession to Pakistan, if it had any validity at all could only be provisional and conditional upon the outcome of a plebiscite of referendum. India, moreover, considered that the need for such a reference to the people was specifically determined by the fact that a majority of the State&#8217;s population followed a different religion to that of the Ruler. A plebiscite in Junagadh was duly held in February 1948, when the vote was for union with India. In Indian official thinking, it is clear, there was no question of a plebiscite in any State where both Ruler and people were non-Muslims. 

Thus when the Kashmir crisis broke out in October 1947 the plebiscite was already established as the official Indian solution to this order of problem. On 25 October 1947, before the Kashmir crisis had fully developed and before Indian claims based on the Maharajah&#8217;s accession to India had been voiced, Nehru in a telegram to Attlee, the British Prime Minister, declared that: 

"I should like to make it clear that [the] question of aiding Kashmir&#8230;..is not designed in any way to influence the State to accede to India. Our view, which we have repeatedly made public, is that [the] question of accession in any disputed territory must be decided in accordance with the wishes of the people, and we adhere to this view." 

On 28 October 1947 the Governor General of Pakistan M.A. Jinnah, also agreed that the answer to Kashmir lay in a plebiscite, thus confirming the official Pakistan policy on this subject. From this moment the basic disagreement between the two Dominions, at least on paper, lay in the modalities for holding a plebiscite and what was understood by &#8220;impartial auspices&#8221;. 

The concept of impartial supervision of the determination of sovereignty had been present from the outset of the run up to the partition of the Punjab and Bengal in early June 1947. A number of possibilities had been considered at this period, including the request for the services of the United Nations (which had then been rejected on technical grounds arising in the main from the short span of time allowed for the partition process to be implemented). In connection with the Junagadh question, on 30 September 1947 Nehru made it clear that if the United Nations were to be involved (as a result, perhaps, of a reference to that body by Pakistan), and the United Nations issued directions, India would &#8220;naturally abide by those directions&#8221;. 

Between 28 October and 22 December 1947 there took place a series of Indo-Pakistan discussions over the Kashmir question, some with the leaders of the two sides meeting face to face, some through subordinate officials and some through British intermediaries acting either officially or unofficially. While frequently acrimonious, the general tenor of the negotiations was that some kind of plebiscite should be held in Jammu and Kashmir. At a meeting on 8 November 1947 between two very senior officials, V.P Menon for India and Chaudhri Muhammad Ali for Pakistan, a detailed scheme for holding a plebiscite in Jammu and Kashmir was worked out, with the apparent blessing of the Indian Deputy Prime Minister, Vallabhbhai Patel, in which the following principle was laid down : that neither Government [of India or Pakistan] would accept the accession of a State whose rule was of a different religion to the majority of his subjects without resorting to a plebiscite. 

The 8 November scheme aborted; but the underlying principles remained on the agenda. There were two major questions. First : how and in what way should the State be restored to a condition of tranquility such as would permit the holding of any kind of free and fair plebiscite. Second: who should supervise the plebiscite when it finally came to he held. On both question, after exploring a number of devices including the employment of British officers to hold the ring while the votes were being cast, the consensus in the Governments of both India and Pakistan by 22 December 1947 was that the services of the United Nations, either through the Secretary General or the Security Council, offered the best prospect for success, though Nehru continued to express in public his reservations about &#8220;foreign&#8221; intervention. 

At this point Lord Mountbatten, the Governor General of India, explained to Liaquat Ali Khan, the Prime Minister of Pakistan, that the best way to get Nehru to decide finally in favour of reference to the United Nations was to permit India to take the first step, even if in the process Pakistan would have to submit to some measure of Indian &#8220;indictment&#8221; to which Pakistan would have every opportunity to make rebuttal at the United Nations. Liaquat Ali Khan, so the records make clear, accepted this proposal. On this basis, on 1 January 1948, India brought Security Council of the United Nations. 

The Presentation of the Indian case, the Pakistani reply, and the series of debates which followed over the years, have all tended to obscure the original terms of that Indian reference. This was made under Article 35 of the Charter of the United Nations in which the mediation of the Security Council was expressly sough in a matter which otherwise threatened to disturb the course of international relations. The issue was an Indian request for United Nations mediation in a dispute which had transcended the diplomatic resources of the two parties directly involved, India and Pakistan, and not, as it is frequently represented, an Indian demand for United Nations condemnation of Pakistan&#8217;s &#8220;aggression&#8221;. This point, despite much Indian and Pakistan rhetoric, can be determined easily enough by relating the contents of the reference to the specifications of Article 35 of the United Nations Charter. The United Nations was asked to devise a formula whereby peace could be restored in the State of Jammu and Kashmir so that a fair and free plebiscite could be held to determine that State&#8217;s future. The matter of the Maharajah of Kashmir&#8217;s accession to India was not in this context of the slightest relevance. 

The Security Council of the United Nations responded to this request by devising a number of schemes for the restoration of law and order and the holding a plebiscite. These were duly set out in United Nations Resolutions which, though never implemented, still remain the collective expression of the voice of the international community as to how the Kashmir question ought to be settled. The conditions set out by the Security Council of the United Nations have not been met in any way by the subsequent internal political processes (including a variety of elections) in the State of Jammu and Kashmir and in any of its constituent parts. 

The situation in the State of Jammu and Kashmir remains unresolved, and it remains a matter of international interest. Given the background to and terms of the original Indian reference to the Security Council it cannot possibly be said that, today, Jammu and Kashmir (or those parts of it currently under Indian occupation) is a matter of purely internal Indian concern. The United Nations retains that status in this matter, which it was granted by the original Indian reference, and the Security Council still has the duty to endeavor to implement its Resolutions.

India's false Instrument of Accession is actually an "Instrument of Aggression" against Kashmir!

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## glomex

vsdoc said:


> Exactly true brother.
> 
> And after that, Part 3 for sustained peace.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Well said...


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## Salahadin

sree said:


> I am feeling drowsy after reading couple of Paragraphs
> 
> When there are wars both direct and proxy who cares about piece of paper? It is as good a toilet paper
> 
> Kashmir is Part of India and will be part of India
> It is bitter pill for Pakistan but it should digest this fact and move on.
> There is life beyond Kashmir!




NO mate Kashmir is not part of India its still a disputed territory, and Life doesn't move on without Kashmir for Pakistan, maybe for India it will soon. 

again Kashmir is not Part of India its still a disputed territory


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## Salahadin

glomex said:


> Dil ke khush rakhne ko...ghalib yeh khayal achha hai....




bhut Acha khaya hai Janab, magar tera kya ho ga Kalia 

and fact remain the same, Kashmir is a disputed Territory not part of India


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## glomex

Stop wasting your life on blogs folks......they are nothing but some ones personal jerk off sessions...

Look for something worthwhile and invest your energies there....... this will help all of us grow into better human beings...


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## jehangirhaider

glomex said:


> Stop wasting your life on blogs folks......they are nothing but some ones personal jerk off sessions...
> 
> Look for something worthwhile and invest your energies there....... this will help all of us grow into better human beings...



Mr. you cannot deny history. If Israel has occupied most of the Palestine land, Can we say that they forget about their land and stop wasting there time. India occupied the Kashmir by force, look at Pakistani side Kashmir how many troops are inside the cities to oppress the people of Azad Kashmir to make them to live with us, where as in case of occupied Kashmir how many troops India have. Why you forget about Hyderabad and Munabao.

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## gubbi

idune said:


> *The Myth of Indian Claim to JAMMU AND KASHMIR &#8211;&#8211;A REAPPRAISAL*
> *blah blah......*
> 
> Why would the Maharajah of Jammu and Kashmir not have signed an Instrument of Accession? The answer lies in the complex course of events of August, September and October 1947 emerged. The Maharajah, *confronted with growing internal disorder* (including a full scale rebellion in the Poonch region of the State), sought Indian military help without, it at all possible, surrendering his own independence.
> 
> *blah blah...*
> 
> India's false Instrument of Accession is actually an "Instrument of Aggression" against Kashmir!



Nice details on the technicalities and confusions regarding the dates and the instrument of accession. However, there is but one glaring discrepancy in the whole article, which make its just another piece of drivel intended to inflame passions. 
If it were not for this blatant omission of an important fact, this piece of prose would have held some credibility. *And that omission is that, instead of saying "internal disorder in Kashmir" the author should have referred it to as "Kashmiri invasion by Pakistani based militants supported covertly and not-so-covertly by Pakistani regular army*.

*Why is that the ill-fated poorly planned and poorly executed Operation Gulmarg (the invasion of Kashmir by Pak army) so conveniently omitted?*

If it weren't for Pakistani invasion (Op. Gulmarg) of Kashmir, in the vain hope that local population would help them in capturing Srinagar, Kashmir would'nt have been a flashpoint.


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## Awesome

Do I need to remind you all that Pakistan's flags were hoisted, India's flags were burned, and Self-determination day was held to mark the occasion of Pakistan Independence day.

That was less than a month ago. This article says nothing about Kashmiris relishing the decline in the independence movement, it only mentions Kashmiris enjoying the fact that the Indian authorities have allowed them to play football.

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## glomex

Well everything green is mot Pakistani Flag...buddy......

Whatever..but people are getting some relief...the same thing happened in Punjab...then then terrorism Died....


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

glomex said:


> Whatever..but people are getting some relief...the same thing happened in Punjab...then then terrorism Died....



Indian Punjab did not have a competing ideology, a competing state vying for the hearts and minds of its people, its people split in half and the international community, through the UNSC resolutions, endorsing the position that the territory is disputed and that the people need to exercise self-determination.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

vsdoc said:


> Its only a matter of time when Kashmiris on the other side of the LOC start wanting the same.
> 
> Its only human.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



The thing is, the Kashmiris on the other side already have a great degree of autonomy and development. There is a huge Kashmir diaspora, both in Pakistan and abroad, and they are extremely wealthy, which means that you have a ton of money going back home and being invested, aside from the development carried out by the government and the military (in terms of infrastructure, schools, clinics etc.).


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

glomex said:


> Stop wasting your life on blogs folks......they are nothing but some ones personal jerk off sessions...
> 
> Look for something worthwhile and invest your energies there....... this will help all of us grow into better human beings...



OK, thanks for making that clear.

I'll help you on your way from this 'jerk off session'. 

Have fun trolling somewhere else.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> . *And that omission is that, instead of saying "internal disorder in Kashmir" the author should have referred it to as "Kashmiri invasion by Pakistani based militants supported covertly and not-so-covertly by Pakistani regular army*.



The tribal invasion came later. What the author is referring to perhaps is the rebellion against the dictator Maharaja in the Poonch district by resident Kashmiris. There was no tribal invasion at that time.

The Maharajah responded to that rebellion with a brutal crackdown, which resulted in thousands of Kashmir refugees escaping into Pakistan, and that, along with the inflamed sentiment of partition, with trains full of massacred people arriving from India, was to be the catalyst for the Tribal invasion.

The author has not obfuscated anything here, but pointed out the events that were the true cause of the subsequent violence the Kashmiri rebellion against the Maharajah and his brutal crackdown.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Peshwa said:


> So I throw it back to you....how can you prove to us that Pakistani Kashmiri's are actually "Kashmiri"...in fact I am going to go ahead and say that there is a good chance that the "Militant Mujahideen" fighting and infiltrating are not even Kashmiri....they could be Pushtun, Baloch, Punjabi......Do you have any proof except Pakistani propoganda reports to prove that the insurgency is actually "Kashmiri"?


Your challenge is a logical fallacy - argumentum ad ignorantiam, or proving a negative.

I cannot prove that which does not exist, which is why a court of law places the burden of proof on the accuser, to prove the crime, and not on the accused to prove their innocence.

So the burden of proof is on Indians, to show that all this massive 'ID card fraud' and settlers etc. have impacted the demographic balance.


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## Awesome

Kashmir Watch :: In-depth coverage on Kashmir conflict



> Srinagar, Sep 04-PBI: Nearly a dozen persons were injured in police action in Baramulla district in North Kashmir while as *protests against the occupation of land by troops was held across the valley* on Friday.
> 
> Hurriyat Conference led by incarcerated Syed Ali Shah Geelani had called for protests after Friday prayers against the dangerous occupation of land by troops in the state.
> 
> According to the reports reaching *Press Bureau of India*, hundreds of people took out a protest rally from Baitul Muqaram Masjid in Baramulla soon after the culmination of prayers.
> 
> *As the protestors, shouting pro-freedom and pro-militant slogans*, were proceeding towards the main Chowk, *a contingent of police stopped them and resorted to baton charge*. However, *the protesters pelted stones*, following which *police fired teargas* canisters to disperse them. In the dingdong battle that continued for several hours, *nearly a dozen persons were injured*.
> 
> Reports said that acting general secretary of Tehreek Hurriyat, General Musa took out a rally in Rainawari area in old city while Mohammad Shafi Rishi led a demonstration in Abiguzar here. *The protesters demanded removal of troops from the state.*
> 
> Reports of protests were also received from *Sopore, Kakapora Pulwama, Chiny Chowk Islamabad (south Kashmir) and Lawaypora* in the outskirts of the Srinagar city.
> 
> *New Delhi *in order to maintain its occupation in Jammu and Kashmir *has occupied thousands of kanals of agriculture land and orchards and it has serious implication with regard to disputed nature of the territory*. Besides, it has a serious affects on our economy, a spokesman quoting leaders as addressing the protesters, said in a statement.
> 
> He said that leaders expressed serious concern our *rigidity of India* in resolving the Kashmir and held that such approach was threatening perpetual peace in entire south Asia.
> 
> Meanwhile, the spokesman of the amalgam condemned the use of force against the protesters which, he said, belies the claims of democracy in the state. (PBI)



It was a peaceful protest till India resorted to violence.

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## Awesome

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...occupation-troops-rock-valley.html#post470333

I guess as soon as Indian Army reduces its violence in the valley, the Kashmiri are free to hold their protests... And then the violence resumes...

Hmmm it lasted what? 1 day?


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## s90

vsdoc said:


> Its only a matter of time when Kashmiris on the other side of the LOC start wanting the same.
> 
> Its only human.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Im Kashmiri from other side of the border,AM summed up well what i wanted to say.


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## SinoIndusFriendship

How many 'violent' protesters were killed this time?


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## SinoIndusFriendship

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Your challenge is a logical fallacy - argumentum ad ignorantiam, or proving a negative.
> 
> I cannot prove that which does not exist, which is why a court of law places the burden of proof on the accuser, to prove the crime, and not on the accused to prove their innocence.
> 
> So the burden of proof is on Indians, to show that all this massive 'ID card fraud' and settlers etc. have impacted the demographic balance.



Now see what you've done Agnostic? You've put the burden of proof on Indians, now they'll just scurry away and hide.


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## Awesome

The protesters weren't violent (and then too to the point of pelting the violent baton chargers with stones) till India again resorted to violence.

They have their rights to peacefully chant anti-Indian slogans all across the Kashmir valley.


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## afriend

I think no rallys in Kashmir remains peaceful, the emotions are always charged, especially after the Friday prayers, where they are fed a healthy dose of anti India hatred. And one single person can cause baton charge. Considering the scenario i don't think police would have charged a group of people chanting peaceful slogans.


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## afriend

Asim Aquil said:


> Note that the Kashmiris are relishing the removal of the restrictions imposed by the Indians upon them. So whose violence has reduced, really?
> 
> I guess India will take the score wherever they can get it. Another freebie.



No Asim you are trying to twist it, aint ya . Restriction on movements due to militancy have been relaxed due to the REDUCTION in militancy..!!! 

If you read the entire context, you surely could have made it out and i am sure you am aware of it too..!!!

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## EjazR

Asim Aquil said:


> Kashmir Watch :: In-depth coverage on Kashmir conflict
> 
> 
> 
> It was a peaceful protest till India resorted to violence.




Geelani group protesting? Pro-militant slogans? And kashmir-watch as your source? These 100-200 people don't represent the millions who live in J&K especially if they are shouting pro-militant slogans. I can personally vouch for you that even pro-Independence Kashmirs hate militants.

Let me assure you that these protests i led by Geelani or any pro-pakistani slogans have no popular support whatsoever. Its a fact. They are pro-independence. Its another story that Pakistani authorities don't allow pro-independence organizations to work freely in PaK so people in Pakistan are no aware of that. Geelani is close to zero in the valley as far as popularity is concerned. 

JKLF (M) is far more popular and they are anti Pakistan as well.

I have attached a poll conducted by an Irish peace studies group done in 2008 about solution to J&K and what is unacceptable to them. And keep in mind that this was conducted right after the Amarnath row where tensions were really high. And the results even after that are interesting.

I suggest you read the actual report on Iak vs PaK to understand the reality. Suffice to say that not all people of J&K including muslims in the valley want to be part of Pakistan.
Peace polls, an effective approach in helping resolve conflict


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## Spring Onion

Earlier thousands of Kashmiris protested peacfuly against their land transfer over that Amarnath shrine issue. It was peacful untill Indian forces killed innocent peacful protesters and fanatcis from Hindu fundamentalist organisations jumped into give it a communal color.


Ejaz : The participation of thousands of people in that protest clearly shows the stance of majority.


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## SinoIndusFriendship

Asim Aquil said:


> The protesters weren't violent (and then too to the point of pelting the violent baton chargers with stones) till India again resorted to violence.
> 
> They have their rights to peacefully chant anti-Indian slogans all across the Kashmir valley.



I know, that's why I put 'violent' in quotes!


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## EjazR

idune said:


> *The date, 26 October 1947, has hitherto been accepted as true by virtually all observers, be they sympathetic or hostile to the Indian case.* It is to be found in an official communication by Lord Mountbatten, as Governor General of Pakistan, on 1 November 1947; and it is repeated in the White paper on Jammu and Kashmir which the Government of India laid before the Indian Parliament in March 1948. Pakistani diplomats have never challenged it. Recent research, however, has demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that the date is false. This fact emerges from the archives, and it is also quite clear from such sources as the memoirs of the Prime Minister of Jammu and Kashmir at the time, Mehr Chand Mahajan, and the recently published correspondence of Jawaharlal Nehru, the Indian Prime Minister. Circumstantial accounts of the events of 26 October 1947, notably that of V.P Menon (in his The Integration of the Indian States, London 1965), who said he was actually present when the Maharajah signed, are simply not true.




As mentioned by the author, the instrument of ascension has never been disputed. Even Sheikh Abdullah who was the most popular Kashmiri leader imprisoned by the Maharaja at that time assented to the instrument and supported the decision. So this is a "breakthrough" if this is true.

Unfortunately, no mention of where this new primary source that shows that the date is off by one day is mentioned. Is from declassified documents from the British. Which recently letters of Nehru were published? 

And isn't the IOA considered useless by Pakistan because it didn't take into account popular opinion. 

Fact is that upto 1989, Kashmirs by and large were happy with being part of India. That's why despite the wars in 65 or 71, no popular kashmiri movement against India materialised despite efforts from Pakistan. Unfortunately, in 1980s, the GoI was responsible for massive interference, poll rigging and did not give equal rights to the citizens of J&K which resulted in their alienation. Human rights violations and gross abuse during the 90s made matters worse. This was exploited by militants and then started the militant movement. Before 89, there was no such thing.

Thankfully, the GoI realized their folly and have returned governance back firmly into the hands of J&K. Prosecution of human rights abuses by the army, para military and recruiting locals has curbed this. Free media and and freedom of expression has given the civil society to demand prosecution of any human right abuses which has drastically improved the situation. This is the reason why local informants have become an essential part of the anti-militant operations and their success.
*Bottom line is Kashmir belongs to the Kashmiri people, and they should be given an opportunity to freely and fairly express their opinion. J&K belongs to all the people of J&K (i.e. ladakh, jammu, G-B and PaK) and any decision affecting that requires input of people of all these regions as well.*

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## EjazR

Jana said:


> Ejaz : The participation of thousands of people in that protest clearly shows the stance of majority.



The article mentions Geelani's followers, I know for a fact that he is very unpopular except for a hardcore group in Sopore and Shopian which comes under Baramullah district. 

What usually happens is that just before their protest, they call up the local and foreign media outlets and even though the protest might last 30 mins with only 100 people (the article mentions this number), they will get into the Kashmir news. This is what a friend studying in Srinagar has told me so Im not making it up.

Raising the Pakistani flag in India is illegal, if they wanted to protest against Army's occupation alone, they would have thousands protesting along with them. The Amaranth protest was in my opinion an excellent display of democratic traditions. Although it was unfortunate that unnecessarily it was given a communal nature by extremists on both sides.

But obviously its not as emotive an issue as it used to be. I suggest you read Omar Abdulla's recent speech where he talked about Army's using land in J&K (who pay the J&K govt. by the way) for using govt. land.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/32580-pdp-brought-afspa-well-revoke-omar.html


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## EjazR

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> I know, that's why I put 'violent' in quotes!



according to the article none.

Interestingly, I can't find any other source mentioning this so it would have been a very small incident then with less than a 100 people. Otherwise AFP, reuters e.t.c. usually carry stories even if there are a few 100 people


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## gubbi

Jana said:


> Ejaz : The participation of *thousands of people* in that protest clearly shows the stance of majority.



Now where does it say 'thousands' exactly? Having read the reports, online and speaking with my Kashmiri friends, the whole sham was nothing but a few dozen miscreants wanting publicity, Geelani among them. That's all there's it to it. 
Its non news and nothing to get 'hyper' over!

Oh and is you were talking about Amarnath controversy, of-course, people didnt want land to be given out in such a controversial manner. It was then that politicians stepped in and gave it a communal color and a 'pseudo-nationalistic' flavor. Then like they say, all hell broke loose.
Btw, it was so adequately suppressed and things are back to normal. Nothing was achieved in that disturbance.


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## Awesome

Innocent youth subjected to torture in IHK | Kashmir Media Service



> Srinagar, August 23 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, the personnel of *Indian Special Task Force (STF)* subjected an innocent Kashmiri youth to *severe torture* in Pathranki area of Kishtwar district, kept him in illegal custody for three days and freed him in a critical condition.
> 
> Bashir Ahmad, a resident of Batograkehra, used to work as labourer in Pangi area of Himachal Pradesh, an Indian state. He had come back to occupied Kashmir in the first week of August.
> 
> On August 13, he was going back to Himachal Pradesh when suddenly the *STF personnel halted the vehicle, he was travelling in, at Pathranki area and took him to their camp*.
> 
> Bashir Ahmad told media men that for three days *he was physically tortured* in the camp and then was taken to Pader area of Gulabgarh where a driver was asked to drop him at Himachal Pradesh. Bashir Ahmad said that his condition further deteriorated after reaching Himachal Pradesh and he was again brought to Gulabgarh.
> 
> His father took him to Kishtwar for medical treatment where he remained at district hospital for several days.
> 
> During the period *the father of Bashir Ahmad knocked every door including the court to get justice but his efforts could not bring any positive result.*
> 
> Several political and social organisations of Kishtwar, while condemning the STF personnel for keeping him in illegal detention and torturing him, have demanded immediate action against the involved Indian police personnel.



It seems like India's formula for peace in the land is to go after the youth of Kashmir, whether or not if they are involved in the freedom struggle. I guess they figured if they cast a wide enough net, they are bound to catch some worthwhile targets.


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## ashwin

jehangirhaider said:


> Mr. you cannot deny history. If Israel has occupied most of the Palestine land, Can we say that they forget about their land and stop wasting there time. India occupied the Kashmir by force, look at Pakistani side Kashmir how many troops are inside the cities to oppress the people of Azad Kashmir to make them to live with us, where as in case of occupied Kashmir how many troops India have. Why you forget about Hyderabad and Munabao.



It was not India which sent its force to annex kashmir and to make the kashmir raja to run to India. In azad kashmir there are no cross border terrorist activities by the terrorists (freedom fighter in your language). So we cannot keep Kashmir exposed to the terrorists who cross the border from the other side This is the reason to keep the forces over there. Stop sending them we will remove the forces.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

EjazR said:


> *Bottom line is Kashmir belongs to the Kashmiri people, and they should be given an opportunity to freely and fairly express their opinion. J&K belongs to all the people of J&K (i.e. ladakh, jammu, G-B and PaK) and any decision affecting that requires input of people of all these regions as well.*



Absolutely, and to that end it should not be hard for the UN and other international organizations to trace and register as many of the Kashmiri punidts that left, or the Kashmiri diaspora in Pakistan and abroad, so that their votes are counted as well in a free and fair plebiscite.

Let the Kashmiri's voice be heard, and end the dispute.

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## Gabbar

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Absolutely, and to that end it *should not be hard for the UN and other international organizations to trace and register as many of the Kashmiri punidts that left*, or the Kashmiri diaspora in Pakistan and abroad, so that their votes are counted as well in a free and fair plebiscite.
> 
> Let the Kashmiri's voice be heard, and end the dispute.



Just one issue with this. Even Indian agencies can't count and trace all of the Pandits who left for many years. It will be like finding a piece of hay in a gigantic needle stack.


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## idune

*Accession of Kashmir to India - legal?*


_The ostensible accession of Kashmir to India is a fiction entrenched in the Indian position._ 

The fact that the act was performed by a feudal ruler who had fled his capital in the face of popular revolt is well established in the official record of the dispute. But the facts of the elaborate conspiracy are no so well known but they are being exposed by the painstaking historical research conducted by such unimpeachable authorities as the Oxford historian, Alistair Lamb. The details would need a lengthy narration. Let the following facts, all beyond contradiction, therefore suffice: 

1. For months prior to the so-called accession, the Maharaja (the feudal despot) was in contact not only with the Indian leaders but also with other Maharajas who had brought about the mass killings and exodus of their Muslim subjects and acceded to India. Ten weeks earlier, he had dismissed his Kashmiri Pandit Prime Minister who had counselled against a move hostile to Pakistan. The Maharaja had brought in troops and murderous gangs from outside to overawe his Muslim subjects (the majority of the people) and crush any movement for accession to Pakistan. 

2. At the moment that he offered to accede to India, his authority over the bulk of the State had crumbled. 

3. India flew in its troops to restore his authority even before he had signed and delivered the instrument of accession. His accompanying letter was composed in Delhi. 

4. An erstwhile Kashmiri popular leader, Shaikh Muhammad Abdullah, who had become a cohort of Indian leaders, was installed in office for his support of the Maharaja's accession. But this same person, when he insisted that the accession was provisional and depended on a plebiscite, was dismissed and put in jail in 1953. He languished in prison for about thirteen years. It was his followers who mainly formed what was called the Plebiscite Front. (He was reinstated when he was a tired, old man and had given up the fight.) 

5. The Constituent Assembly was convened without a poll in Kashmir itself. Seventy-three out of 75 candidates were declared to have been elected unopposed. 

6. Before this Assembly was convened, India assured the Security Council that the Assembly would not "come in the way" of the holding of a plebiscite under the auspices of the United Nations. One representative of India (an eminent jurist. Benegal Rao, later a judge of the International Court of Justice at the Hague) in his formal statement before the Council termed the State's accession to India as "tentative", pending a plebiscite. 

7. The Security Council adopted the resolution of 30 March 1951 that any action of the so-called Constituent Assembly "would not constitute a disposition of the State" in accordance with the principles enunciated in the Council's earlier resolutions and accepted by both India and Pakistan - namely the synchronized withdrawal of the forces of both sides preparatory to the plebiscite and the holding of the plebiscite under the control and supervision of the United Nations. 

8. When in defiance of the Security Council and in violation of the international argument embodied in the resolutions of the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan (UNCIP), India in November 1956 nevertheless got the Assembly to declare Kashmir as a part of India, the Security Council adopted the resolution of 24 March 1957, again reminding the parties that "the final disposition of the state of Jammu and Kashmir will be made in accordance with the will of the people expressed through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite conducted under the auspices of the United Nations". It also reiterated its earlier declaration that, "any action that the Assembly may have taken or might attempt to take to determine the future shape and affiliation of the entire State or any part thereof, or action by the parties concerned in support of any such action by the Assembly, would not constitute a disposition of the State in accordance with the above principle." 

If India were as certain of the legal strength of its claim as it professes to be, would it not agree to the whole question being examined by the World Court? A process lasting a few months would vindicate its position and bring it resounding victory. But India knows that an impartial investigation would be fatal to its claim. hence the loud, indignant insistence on "sovereignty". Said an experienced lawyer to his young apprentice: "If you are weak in law, stress the facts; if you are weak in facts, stress the law; but if you are weak in both facts and law, give them hell!" The way India has been giving hell to all its critics would please that lawyer. 

To recapitulate, the question needs to be faced: at what point of time and by what justifiable means did Kashmir become a part of India? By the Maharaja's accession? But India itself acknowledges that the accession was subject to plebiscite under international auspices. By the decision of the Constituent Assembly? But India assured the Security Council that the decision would not prejudge the plebiscite and come in its way. By the sheer passage of time? But, despite the lapse of decades, Kashmiris have shown themselves as unreconciled to Indian occupation and rule. By the elections held periodically in the Indian-occupied area? But these elections are known to have been rigged and their outcome is totally disowned by the people of Kashmir, as the mass uprising amply bears out.

Net Pakistani Kashmir : - Accession of Kashmir to India - legal?

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## EjazR

Elmo said:


> No it's not a possibility. *But Pakistan doesn't aspire for an independent kashmir as it considers it to be its part*. So your argument is pointless.



So we agree that "official" Pakistani policy does'nt stand for the right of self-determiniation for people of J&K then?


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## EjazR

South Asia Monitor: A Perspective on the Region

Gilgit-Baltistan, also called Federally Administered Northern Areas, was once a part of Jammu and Kashmir. But since 1947, when India and Pakistan achieved independence, the unfortunate territory is facing the wrath of colonisation.

The people of this strategically important region revolted against the autocratic Dogra ruler and carved out an independent state, "Republic of Gilgit", on Nov 1, 1947. While the freedom fighters were preparing to liberate the adjacent Baltistan region, the Pakistan Army invaded Gilgit.

The president of Republic of Gilgit was dismissed Nov 16, 1947. Since then it has been an unending battle for the people of Gilgit-Baltistan, who have been resisting against the deprivation of basic human, democratic and judicial rights for 60 years.

No accession deal was ever signed with Pakistan. In fact Pakistan, in its "Karachi Pact" of April 28, 1951, admitted that Gilgit-Baltistan is part of Jammu and Kashmir.

As Pakistan admits this reality, there is no moral justification of subjecting the local communities to the clauses of the constitution of Pakistan. If an autonomous like set-up of governance is possible in "Azad Jammu and Kashmir", why the same is not replicated in the region, people wonder.

Despite the area being officially declared part of Jammu and Kashmir, the state subject rule (SSR) was abolished during the regime of Gen Ayub Khan. It is a conspiracy to convert the local communities into a minority by a systematic settlement programme of immigrants from North West Frontier Province and Punjab.

The region's administrative body of 30 members, called Northern Areas Legislative Council, is headed by the Federal Minister for Kashmir Affairs based in Islamabad. The chief executive, appointed by the Pakistan government from among members of the National Assembly, enjoys the status of a ruler of the territory. He is not answerable to the council as he represents Islamabad.

The council cannot make or amend laws because every bill needs the chief executive's assent. The deputy chief executive is the senior-most elected office holder in the council but works just as personal assistant of the chief executive. There is no provision for moving a no-confidence motion to remove the deputy. The council has no powers concerning approval of the budgetary allocations. It cannot act as a check on the executive.

India has granted constitutional, political and judicial rights to the people of Ladakh. Nearly half of the population of Ladakh is Muslim and they enjoy these rights. Why are the same basic human rights denied to the Muslims of Gilgit-Baltistan? Why are the local communities treated like worthless chattels by Pakistani authorities while we live in the 21st century?

While Pakistan demands demilitarisation of parts of the Jammu and Kashmir, in the name of establishing peace, both military and paramilitary forces such as Khyber Rifles, Chitral Scouts, Sindh Ranger and Frontier Constabulary are stationed in Gilgit-Baltistan. Recently the numbers of these armed forces were increased while both India and Pakistan claim moving towards building peace.

The principal civil servant is the chief secretary, while secretaries head other departments. Ironically domicile residents of Gilgit-Baltistan are not eligible for the post of chief secretary and secretaries.

Each district has a court of district and sessions Judge. There is a chief court, comprising a chairman and two members. The government nominates members of chief court. Merit is not a criterion in selecting the members.

There is no public service commission, no services tribunal, no service rules or structure, no TV station, no independent press, no commerce institution, no medical or engineering college or university and no appellate court.

Gilgit-Baltistan is one of the most poverty stricken areas of Pakistan. Alarmingly low literacy, absence of industries and bad road links, lack of energy sources and job opportunities have forced thousands to leave the region in quest of livelihood. It seems that keeping the region backward is a state policy.

The communication department of Gilgit-Baltistan is managed by the Pakistan Army. The department is called Special Communication Organisation, where most employees are non-residents of the Gilgit-Baltistan. The department for developing infrastructure, called Federal Work Department (FWD), is also in the hands of the army. The local people are not allowed to enter FWD.

The key posts of civil services are reserved for people from other provinces of Pakistan. The retired army and civil bureaucrats have been deployed on all key posts of civil services while the local educated people are facing unemployment.

(Manzoor Parwana, a Gilgit-based editor of a banned monthly journal "Kargil International" and a rights activist. He can be contacted at parwana@engineer.com)

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## blueoval79

Yup.....Pakistan wants nothing less than whole Kashmir Annexwd into Pakistan......the entire story of freedome ...and azadi..is a Propoganda...to counter indias ststements..that Kashmir is integral part of India.....the whole story of azadi of kashmir is a hogwash ...a ploy to mindwash young guys and turn them into terrorists....who would join jIhadi groups if they declare that Kashmir is integral part of Pakistan....Pakistan would like to have whole of Kashmir minus Kashmiris...so that thay can enjoy the resources just like they are doing in Balochistan.....its all about resources....notthing to do with Humans.


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## Omar1984

*Hurriyet leaders welcome package for Gilgit Baltistan 
*

SRINAGAR (IHK): In occupied Kashmir, the leaders of All Parties Hurriyet Conference Agha Syed Hassan Al-Moosvi and Mukhtar Ahmad Waza have welcomed political package for Gilgit Baltistan announced by the government of Pakistan, reports KMS.

Agha Syed Hassan Al-Moosvi, addressing a gathering in Badgam Mukhtar Ahmad Waza talking to media men in Srinagar said that the administrative arrangements would give an opportunity to the people of Gilgit Baltistan to exercise their political rights.

The APHC leader said that the administrative arrangements would not affect the disputed nature of Jammu and Kashmir. 

They maintained that Kashmir was a political dispute and it should be resolved politically through negotiations so that permanent peace could be established in South Asia.

The Hurriyet leaders also expressed serious concern over the gross human rights violations by Indian troops in the occupied territory. 
They appealed to the world community to put pressure on India to halt Indian state terrorism in occupied Kashmir.

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## Omar1984

*AJK PM satisfied over Gilgit-Baltistan package 
*

ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Azad Kashmir Sardar Yaqoob has expressed satisfaction on the Gilgit-Baltistan package, saying the package recognizes Gilgit-Baltistan as part of Kashmir.

Talking to media on the occasion of inauguration of a cell for the overseas Kashmiris at Kashmir House Islamabad, the AJK Premier said every party has a right to hold its own opinion but, added that he gives the credit to the present government of Pakistan for taking a right step through introduction of Gilgit-Baltistan package.

He said Pakistan&#8217;s Foreign Minister has taken him into confidence for which, he said, he is grateful to the government of Pakistan.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

EjazR said:


> So we agree that "official" Pakistani policy does'nt stand for the right of self-determiniation for people of J&K then?



"Self-determination is defined as free choice of ones own acts without external compulsion; and especially as the freedom of the people of a given territory to determine their own political status or independence from their current state."

I am not sure how Pakistan's support for the UNSC resolutions that call for a plabisicte in Kashmir so that the kashmiris may select between India and Pakistan does not stand for 'self-determination', though in a narrower context.

Pakistan's official position is one based on the UNSC resolutions, and the UNSC resolutions only allow for two choices - India or Pakistan.

This should answer Blueoval's rant as well.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> If an autonomous like set-up of governance is possible in "Azad Jammu and Kashmir", why the same is not replicated in the region, people wonder.



That is precisely what the recent political reforms in G-B intend to do, EjazR.

This article was originally posted in 2007, so you are a bit late in posting it, since his central critique, of lack of autonomy ala Azad Kashmir, stands addressed.


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## Halaku Khan

*Kasab's Hindi tutor, an LeT terrorist, killed in Jammu - India - NEWS - The Times of India*

MUMBAI/JAMMU: Top Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) commander Abu Jundal was gunned down in an encounter in Jammu on Friday. The Mumbai Crime Branch is in touch with Jammu cops and trying to get Jundal's photograph to establish if he is the same militant who had taught Hindi to the 10 terrorists who entered Mumbai last November and killed 163 people.

Jammu police officers said they received information about the presence of a group of LeT terrorists in the Batoi forest in Mahore, 120 kms from Jammu. Security forces and local policemen launched a joint combing operation and an encounter ensued; an AK-47, a magazine and some ammunition were recovered from the site and self-styled LeT commander Jundal alias Mohammad Avais (going by the code name of Zuman in ***) was killed.

Pakistani terrorist Ajmal Kasab on July 20 told the trial court that one Abu Jundal was part of the LeT group that had tutored them; he had described Jundal as his Hindi teacher. "Woh hamein Hindi sikhathe the,'' Kasab had told the court and added that Jundal was an Indian.

But Jundal was not mentioned in the 26/11 chargesheet nor did his name come up during the investigation. It was Kasab's statement in court that first brought the spotlight on Jundal.

City Crime Branch officials said there was no confirmation if the Jundal killed by Jammu cops was the same person described by Kasab. "We will ask for the dead man's photograph and show it to Kasab to identify him. Code names are very common in LeT and so it's difficult to say anything more without further verification,'' a senior officer said.


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## Khajur

I cant help it...its a sad news hear as we celebrate teacher' day in india today.


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## s90

Strange,in 2002 Karakoram International University was established and the writer doesnt know about that.SCO doesnt have any monopoly now.


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## EjazR

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That is precisely what the recent political reforms in G-B intend to do, EjazR.
> 
> This article was originally posted in 2007, so you are a bit late in posting it, since his central critique, of lack of autonomy ala Azad Kashmir, stands addressed.



Yes this article is old, but G-B package was announced only last week. Besides, the article mentions the history of how FANA areas got to be part of Pakistan and the invasion of tribals in Gilgit.

The recent G-B package is only partly addressing the problems. Pakistani govt. should be commended that finally after 60+ years the people of G-B can elect their representatives and govern themselves. Something that other parts of J&K have been enjoying for most of the past 60 years with a few exceptions.

Although how autonomous it will be is still to be seen. Will the assemble vote to allow its people to freely move out of G-B without getting an exit visa from GoP? Will there be free and fair media functioning there? And most importantly will pro-independence groups allow to canvass and present their point of view to the people of G-B? or even in PaK?


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## EjazR

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> "Self-determination is defined as free choice of ones own acts without external compulsion; and especially as the freedom of the people of a given territory to determine their own political status or independence from their current state."
> 
> I am not sure how Pakistan's support for the UNSC resolutions that call for a plabisicte in Kashmir so that the kashmiris may select between India and Pakistan does not stand for 'self-determination', though in a narrower context.
> 
> Pakistan's official position is one based on the UNSC resolutions, and the UNSC resolutions only allow for two choices - India or Pakistan.
> 
> This should answer Blueoval's rant as well.



There is a significant pro-independence presence. Unfortunately some Kashmiris have been misguided that independence is an option under UNSC resolutions which is not the case. So the plebiscite as per UNSC with the option of only India and Pakistan loses relevance.

As opinion poll after poll has shown, Kashmiris living in India would prefer India rather Pakistan as the "lesser evil" if no other option is given. What they really want is independence, which Pakistan doesn't want and neither is it a viable given that it will be landlocked surrounded by four nuclear states and most likely become the playground for external powers like Afghanistan. 

And correct me if I'm wrong, under Musharraf, Pakistan had agreed to fore go the plebiscite and move to joint management of the valley region. Which IMO shows that he realised that a plebiscite would most likely not be in GoPs favor.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

EjazR said:


> There is a significant pro-independence presence. Unfortunately some Kashmiris have been misguided that independence is an option under UNSC resolutions which is not the case. So the plebiscite as per UNSC with the option of only India and Pakistan loses relevance.
> 
> As opinion poll after poll has shown, Kashmiris living in India would prefer India rather Pakistan as the "lesser evil" if no other option is given. What they really want is independence, which Pakistan doesn't want and neither is it a viable given that it will be landlocked surrounded by four nuclear states and most likely become the playground for external powers like Afghanistan.
> 
> And correct me if I'm wrong, under Musharraf, Pakistan had agreed to fore go the plebiscite and move to joint management of the valley region. Which IMO shows that he realised that a plebiscite would most likely not be in GoPs favor.



The Plebiscite under the UNSC resolutions does not lose relevance based on opinion polls - the UNSC resolutions remain the only agreement that had the unanimous endorsement of the global community, India and Pakistan, and continue to offer the only moral and ethical solution to the dispute - of allowing the people of Kashmir to choose between India and Pakistan.

Indeed it is ironic that assuming the claims of the Kashmiris choosing India over Pakistan, in a plebiscite under the UNSC resolutions, are true, it is India that has doggedly refused to hold a plebiscite in Kashmir in violation of its commitment to the UNSC resolutions.

Why so much fear of a plebiscite then? Have your government agree to hold it and end the dispute.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

EjazR said:


> Yes this article is old, but G-B package was announced only last week. Besides, the article mentions the history of how FANA areas got to be part of Pakistan and the invasion of tribals in Gilgit.



And also points out something that Indians refuse to accept -that there was an indigenous rebellion against the dictator Maharajah in various parts of Kashmir before the Tribals and Pakistan Army joined in.

In fact, I have pointed out several times how the Maharajah's brutal crackdown against the rebellion resulted in thousands of refugees into Pakistan and acted as a catalyst for the Tribal invasion.



> The recent G-B package is only partly addressing the problems. Pakistani govt. should be commended that finally after 60+ years the people of G-B can elect their representatives and govern themselves. Something that other parts of J&K have been enjoying for most of the past 60 years with a few exceptions.


Lets not get self-righteous here. While you may argue that India granted autonomy in principle to IaK a long time ago, it is also true that the region has been under the occupation of over 500,000 Indian military and paramilitary forces, with tens of thousands (innocent civilians) killed, tortured and raped by those security forces.

I do agree that Pakistan should have extended autonomy a long time ago, ala Azad kashmir, but better late than never.


> Although how autonomous it will be is still to be seen. Will the assemble vote to allow its people to freely move out of G-B without getting an exit visa from GoP? Will there be free and fair media functioning there? And most importantly will pro-independence groups allow to canvass and present their point of view to the people of G-B? or even in PaK?


Technically G-B is not part of Pakistan, it is disputed, and if the region is landlocked by Pakistan, should there not be some sort of 'visa' process in place to track people? I don't see harm in it either way personally, though I think it would be better from a PR PoV to not have any bureaucratic hurdles in movement.

Free and fair media is a relatively new phenomenon in all of Pakistan (thanks to Musharraf). Given time it will expand into G-B as well.

I don't see why the canvassing of pro-independence groups is 'most important'. They advocate a solution that is not endorsed in the UNSC resolutions which is what Pakistan's official position is based on.


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## Halaku Khan

Peshwa said:


> India in its effort to preserve the Kashmiri's and Kashmir from being diluted has passed Article 370 more.....Same cannot be said about Pakistan.... unless you can show me proof!!....
> 
> Besides we all know how easily one can be made "Kashmiri" in the sub-continent....forging papers/birth certificates/ID cards is very common.
> 
> So I throw it back to you....how can you prove to us that Pakistani Kashmiri's are actually "Kashmiri"...in fact I am going to go ahead and say that there is a good chance that the "Militant Mujahideen" fighting and infiltrating are not even Kashmiri....they could be Pushtun, Baloch, Punjabi......Do you have any proof except Pakistani propoganda reports to prove that the insurgency is actually "Kashmiri"?



In fact there ae no "Kashmiris" on the Pakistani side because they do not belong to the Kashmiri ethnic group and do not know how to speak the Kashmiri language. All the genuine Kashmiris are on the Indian side.

Nevertheless, it must be noted that even the non-Kashmiri speaking populations who are native to Pakistan occupied Kashmir have been diluted with immigrants from Punjab and NWFP. Obviously, such non-natives and their descendants should have no role in determining the future of Pakistan occupied Kashmir.


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## arihant

One more thing. Indian Kashmiris are free to go to any part of India and settle their with their business or anything. While no one in India can go to Kashmir and purchase land and settle there. Recent example was of "Amarnath Shrine where land was not given even though Amarnath is in J&K.

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## EjazR

_Interesting to note that whereas other political leaders prefer to move around "with protocol" in bullet proof cars, Abdulla doesn't as he knows he is popular enough in J&K_

fullstory

Leh, Sep 2 (PTI) Union Minister Farooq Abdullah today went shopping for vegetables, particularly turnip, grown in Ladakh much to the surprise of the roadside vendors and onlookers.

Abdullah, who was accompanied by his Chief Minister son Omar, bought patatoes, cauliflower and apricot, besides turnip, which is famous in this part of the state for its sweet flavour.

The senior Abdullah, who was here to attend a conference on new and renewable energy, paid for the vegetables he purchased before he left the market.

In his usual style, he hugged a Lama and enquired about his well being and also posed with foreigners for a picture.


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## EjazR

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And also points out something that Indians refuse to accept -that there was an indigenous rebellion against the dictator Maharajah in various parts of Kashmir before the Tribals and Pakistan Army joined in.
> 
> In fact, I have pointed out several times how the Maharajah's brutal crackdown against the rebellion resulted in thousands of refugees into Pakistan and acted as a catalyst for the Tribal invasion.


Agreed that Dogras were autocratic just like any royals of that time. But instead of supporting the revolutionaries, and giving some status to the president of gilgit (Even as a politcal agent) Pakistani actions caused resentment. Later on, once Sheikh Abdulla was released from prision, and the tribals wrecked havoc not only among non-muslims but among the muslims as well, they moved to call in Indian support.

So we might say that initially the people of G-B and even Kashmir might have joined Kashmir if tribals hadn't entered. But their actions negated this. Infact, like one of the sepratist leaders said that Pakistan through its action pushed Kashmir into India's lap in 1948.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Lets not get self-righteous here. While you may argue that India granted autonomy in principle to IaK a long time ago, it is also true that the region has been under the occupation of over 500,000 Indian military and paramilitary forces, with tens of thousands (innocent civilians) killed, tortured and raped by those security forces.
> 
> I do agree that Pakistan should have extended autonomy a long time ago, ala Azad kashmir, but better late than never.


I apologies if I sounded like that. I know you will understand that communicating on forum is impersonal.

Regarding troops in J&K, it was only after 1988 that troop levels had to increased massively. Before that there was not even popular protest against India. While I agree that during the 90s gross violations of human rights occurred. In the past few years, its the militants who have outpaced human rights violations wether it be murder or rape or just plain terrorism. Any army, para-military or police officials involved are prosecuted and sentenced, including backdated cases.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Technically G-B is not part of Pakistan, it is disputed, and if the region is landlocked by Pakistan, should there not be some sort of 'visa' process in place to track people? I don't see harm in it either way personally, though I think it would be better from a PR PoV to not have any bureaucratic hurdles in movement.
> 
> Free and fair media is a relatively new phenomenon in all of Pakistan (thanks to Musharraf). Given time it will expand into G-B as well.


All good but I guess we will just have to wait and see.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I don't see why the canvassing of pro-independence groups is 'most important'. They advocate a solution that is not endorsed in the UNSC resolutions which is what Pakistan's official position is based on.



That is because that is one of the opinions held by a large section of the valley population. It might not be popular in Pakistan, but then again, any pro-independence Kashmirs have been discouraged arrested or killed.

While the viability of an Independent J&K is another discussion given the present geo-political scenario, not having that option means people of J&K (or at least some of them in the valley) are not given what they really want. 

If Pakistani policy is still to deny the Independence option, then we can agree that resolution of Kashmir is not a moral dilemma but resolving geo-politcal and strategic concerns whether they be water issues or security and what Kashmirs want has nothing to do with it. This was the early policy adopted by Pakistan up until the 80s, it was only later that it was given a communal color to fan extremism.


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## EjazR

@AM

The UNSC resolutions also required full withdrawal of Pakistani forces before the plebescite among other things, but I don't want to get into technicalities.

In India there only two main groups in J&K, Pro India mainly in the ladakh and jammu regions but with a significant presence in the valley and Pro independence mainly in the border towns of Sopore and Shopian. How can we reconcile the second with giving them the only alternative option of Pakistan wrt India?

The Plebescite requires at least a few years of relative peace and free and fair media and freedom of expression in ALL parts of J&K including those areas under Chinese control. G-B only recently got self-governance, hopefully media will come as well. In IaK, although violence has come down there is still prescnece of LeT and Hizb. These grops terrorise pro - India and even pro - Independence activists. Unless these groups are reigned in and violence drops close to zero, there will be no meaningful plebiscite

Atmosphere has to be peaceful so that all parties can advocate their viewpoint without fearing being bumped of by the next LeT hit squad


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## EagleEyes

*Kashmir will be independent, secular, says Yasin Malik*

LAHORE: Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) Chairman Yasin Malik on Sunday said he saw Jammu and Kashmir as an independent and secular state in the future, a private TV channel reported. I am not talking about Western secularism but pointing towards the secularism which is based on religious mysticism, he explained. Malik asked India and Pakistan to resume peace talks and include the Kashmiri leadership in the process as well. He said all stakeholders, including mujahideen, should be included in the peace process. We dont want to listen to decisions about Jammu and Kashmir on television or radios, he said, adding Pakistan and India were just informing Kashmiris about their decisions. daily times monitor

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## arsenal_gooner

Indian army to deploy prostitutes as women battalion in Held Kashmir
From Christina Palmer

Special Report 

New DelhiThe Indian Army is deploying around 200 prostitutes under the cover of Border Security Forces constables in the Indian occupied Kashmir along with the Line of Control., The Daily Mail has learnt through authoritative sources.
According to the sources, the decision of recruiting prostitutes for deployment in the held valley was taken some six months back and Indian Army Chief General Kapoor finally approved it. The Daily Mail has learnt that this decision was taken as result of discussions and consultancies regarding the alarmingly increasing incidents of suicides and killing colleagues by soldiers of Indian army that are deployed in the Indian Occupied Kashmir to fight insurgency. The Daily Mails investigations indicate that the factor of suicides and random shoot outs on colleagues by Indian soldiers in the held valley had become a big dilemma for the Indian army top brass. When this exercise gained momentum earlier this year, the army leadership approached different consultants and analysts. The consultants and analysts reached to the conclusion that Indian soldiers, deployed in the valley were committing suicides and killing colleagues out of acute frustration and depression. Medical and psychological consultants and analysts were of the view that since majority of the soldiers, deployed in the valley were married and were away from their wives for very long time, they were gripped by sexual frustrations which ultimately transformed into mental frustration. These consultants suggested that the soldier posted in the valley should be sent on leaves to be with their wives once a month. This came as another dilemma for the Indian Armys top brass as it was not possible at all to send such huge number of soldiers on leaves with regular intervals. The Daily Mails investigations further reveal that upon this a Major General was sent to Moscow to get some solution to the problems as Russians have been having some sort of similar problems around 2 decades back. This General, identified as General Kumar, returned with a very strange solution. The Russian consultants told the Indian army that the since the soldiers in the valley were women starving, they should be provided with women to meet their genuine and natural needs.
The Daily Mails investigations indicate that at this stage, the Indian Army Chief constituted a committee under the command of Lt.General. Raj Kumar Karwal who currently posted as Director General of a training facility of the Indian army while Major General. Sanjeev Loomba, Brigadier. Anil Sharma, Colonel.. N K Khunduri and Colonel. Sanjay Rai were members of the committee. The committee finally came up with the solution that since it was not possible to provide street whores directly to the soldier thus professional prostitutes should be recruited with title of sex workers and than they should be given basic military training and should be posted in Kashmir sector as soldiers so that the male soldiers can establish relations with them. It was also decided that the recruitment should not be made publicly but RAWs help should be sought as RAW was having a huge network of prostitutes in different cities of India. The Daily Mails investigations reveal that RAW completed the assignment successfully and provided a batch of some 300, semi educated prostitutes to the General Raj Kumar committee after proper medical checkup of every individual. The committee then approached the Army Chief and it was decided that these new recruit should not be made part of mainstream army but should be adjusted in Border Security Force (BSF) and from there their services would be made available for Northern Command. The project was completed by the end of August when the new recruited batch of 300 completed a basic military training and Army Chief was informed that recruits were ready for deployment in the valley.
When contacted by this correspondent, Inspector General of BSF Himmat Singh confirmed that a batch of 178 female soldiers was being sent to Northern Command where they would be deployed along with Indo-Pak border to check the border violations by women, working in the field. Mr. Singh further stated that these women were not fully trained for operational military duties however in the next phase, after further training, they would be given the duties of operational Border security. Mr. Singh refused to admit that these female soldiers were actually prostitutes and were being dispatched to the valley as undercover sex workers. When contacted, Rohit Sharma, a senior defense analyst here in New Delhi, said that the move was a wonderful step by Indian army leadership as it would boost the medical and mental health of the soldiers, posted in the valley and they would come up with better results.

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## mjnaushad

If thats true then it might solve the sex frustration problem but will increase AIDS and HIV in army personnel. and when they'll get back they'll transfer it to there family as well. So i guess its better that 1 or 2 soldier shoot themselves in a month instead of whole battalion gets AIDS in a week.

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## SinoIndusFriendship

arsenal_gooner said:


> Indian army to deploy prostitutes as women battalion in Held Kashmir
> From Christina Palmer
> 
> Special Report
> 
> New DelhiThe Indian Army is deploying around 200 prostitutes under the cover of Border Security Forces constables in the Indian occupied Kashmir along with the Line of Control., The Daily Mail has learnt through authoritative sources.
> According to the sources, the decision of recruiting prostitutes for deployment in the held valley was taken some six months back and Indian Army Chief General Kapoor finally approved it. The Daily Mail has learnt that this decision was taken as result of discussions and consultancies regarding the alarmingly increasing incidents of suicides and killing colleagues by soldiers of Indian army that are deployed in the Indian Occupied Kashmir to fight insurgency. The Daily Mails investigations indicate that the factor of suicides and random shoot outs on colleagues by Indian soldiers in the held valley had become a big dilemma for the Indian army top brass. When this exercise gained momentum earlier this year, the army leadership approached different consultants and analysts. The consultants and analysts reached to the conclusion that Indian soldiers, deployed in the valley were committing suicides and killing colleagues out of acute frustration and depression. Medical and psychological consultants and analysts were of the view that since majority of the soldiers, deployed in the valley were married and were away from their wives for very long time, they were gripped by sexual frustrations which ultimately transformed into mental frustration. These consultants suggested that the soldier posted in the valley should be sent on leaves to be with their wives once a month. This came as another dilemma for the Indian Armys top brass as it was not possible at all to send such huge number of soldiers on leaves with regular intervals. The Daily Mails investigations further reveal that upon this a Major General was sent to Moscow to get some solution to the problems as Russians have been having some sort of similar problems around 2 decades back. This General, identified as General Kumar, returned with a very strange solution. The Russian consultants told the Indian army that the since the soldiers in the valley were women starving, they should be provided with women to meet their genuine and natural needs.
> The Daily Mails investigations indicate that at this stage, the Indian Army Chief constituted a committee under the command of Lt.General. Raj Kumar Karwal who currently posted as Director General of a training facility of the Indian army while Major General. Sanjeev Loomba, Brigadier. Anil Sharma, Colonel.. N K Khunduri and Colonel. Sanjay Rai were members of the committee. The committee finally came up with the solution that since it was not possible to provide street whores directly to the soldier thus professional prostitutes should be recruited with title of sex workers and than they should be given basic military training and should be posted in Kashmir sector as soldiers so that the male soldiers can establish relations with them. It was also decided that the recruitment should not be made publicly but RAWs help should be sought as RAW was having a huge network of prostitutes in different cities of India. The Daily Mails investigations reveal that RAW completed the assignment successfully and provided a batch of some 300, semi educated prostitutes to the General Raj Kumar committee after proper medical checkup of every individual. The committee then approached the Army Chief and it was decided that these new recruit should not be made part of mainstream army but should be adjusted in Border Security Force (BSF) and from there their services would be made available for Northern Command. The project was completed by the end of August when the new recruited batch of 300 completed a basic military training and Army Chief was informed that recruits were ready for deployment in the valley.
> When contacted by this correspondent, Inspector General of BSF Himmat Singh confirmed that a batch of 178 female soldiers was being sent to Northern Command where they would be deployed along with Indo-Pak border to check the border violations by women, working in the field. Mr. Singh further stated that these women were not fully trained for operational military duties however in the next phase, after further training, they would be given the duties of operational Border security. Mr. Singh refused to admit that these female soldiers were actually prostitutes and were being dispatched to the valley as undercover sex workers. When contacted, Rohit Sharma, a senior defense analyst here in New Delhi, said that the move was a wonderful step by Indian army leadership as it would boost the medical and mental health of the soldiers, posted in the valley and they would come up with better results.



Coming from England the "Brothel Capital of the World"....


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## Brahm0s

arsenal_gooner said:


> Indian army to deploy prostitutes as women battalion in Held Kashmir
> From Christina Palmer
> 
> Special Report
> 
> New Delhi&#8212;The Indian Army is deploying around 200 prostitutes under the cover of Border Security Force&#8217;s constables in the Indian occupied Kashmir along with the Line of Control., The Daily Mail has learnt through authoritative sources.
> According to the sources, the decision of recruiting prostitutes for deployment in the held valley was taken some six months back and Indian Army Chief General Kapoor finally approved it. The Daily Mail has learnt that this decision was taken as result of discussions and consultancies regarding the alarmingly increasing incidents of suicides and killing colleagues by soldiers of Indian army that are deployed in the Indian Occupied Kashmir to fight insurgency. The Daily Mail&#8217;s investigations indicate that the factor of suicides and random shoot outs on colleagues by Indian soldiers in the held valley had become a big dilemma for the Indian army top brass. When this exercise gained momentum earlier this year, the army leadership approached different consultants and analysts. The consultants and analysts reached to the conclusion that Indian soldiers, deployed in the valley were committing suicides and killing colleagues out of acute frustration and depression. Medical and psychological consultants and analysts were of the view that since majority of the soldiers, deployed in the valley were married and were away from their wives for very long time, they were gripped by sexual frustrations which ultimately transformed into mental frustration. These consultants suggested that the soldier posted in the valley should be sent on leaves to be with their wives once a month. This came as another dilemma for the Indian Army&#8217;s top brass as it was not possible at all to send such huge number of soldiers on leaves with regular intervals. The Daily Mail&#8217;s investigations further reveal that upon this a Major General was sent to Moscow to get some solution to the problems as Russians have been having some sort of similar problems around 2 decades back. This General, identified as General Kumar, returned with a very strange solution. The Russian consultants told the Indian army that the since the soldiers in the valley were women starving, they should be provided with women to meet their genuine and natural needs.
> The Daily Mail&#8217;s investigations indicate that at this stage, the Indian Army Chief constituted a committee under the command of Lt.General. Raj Kumar Karwal who currently posted as Director General of a training facility of the Indian army while Major General. Sanjeev Loomba, Brigadier. Anil Sharma, Colonel.. N K Khunduri and Colonel. Sanjay Rai were members of the committee. The committee finally came up with the solution that since it was not possible to provide street whores directly to the soldier thus professional prostitutes should be recruited with title of sex workers and than they should be given basic military training and should be posted in Kashmir sector as soldiers so that the male soldiers can establish relations with them. It was also decided that the recruitment should not be made publicly but RAW&#8217;s help should be sought as RAW was having a huge network of prostitutes in different cities of India. The Daily Mail&#8217;s investigations reveal that RAW completed the assignment successfully and provided a batch of some 300, semi educated prostitutes to the General Raj Kumar committee after proper medical checkup of every individual. The committee then approached the Army Chief and it was decided that these new recruit should not be made part of mainstream army but should be adjusted in Border Security Force (BSF) and from there their services would be made available for Northern Command. The project was completed by the end of August when the new recruited batch of 300 completed a basic military training and Army Chief was informed that recruits were ready for deployment in the valley.
> When contacted by this correspondent, Inspector General of BSF Himmat Singh confirmed that a batch of 178 female soldiers was being sent to Northern Command where they would be deployed along with Indo-Pak border to check the border violations by women, working in the field. Mr. Singh further stated that these women were not fully trained for operational military duties however in the next phase, after further training, they would be given the duties of operational Border security. Mr. Singh refused to admit that these female soldiers were actually prostitutes and were being dispatched to the valley as undercover sex workers. When contacted, Rohit Sharma, a senior defense analyst here in New Delhi, said that the move was a wonderful step by Indian army leadership as it would boost the medical and mental health of the soldiers, posted in the valley and they would come up with better results.



Sorry to say friend but the latest survey shown something else? Aussie women top while runner up was ENGLAND? i decided i aint gonna even make aussie or english girl my friend. i have two english girls as my friend but they married and divorced. Specially first one who married 3 times and got divorced. She now searching 4th one. Anyway i think its normal in england. By the way you sure u from england? Lol cheers.


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## Brahm0s

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> Coming from England the "Brothel Capital of the World"....



i gotta agree with you Lol.


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## graphican

Indian Army Checked every single female to make sure they were Diseases free. Did they also check every single soldiers to make sure he was previously infected either? 

Its extremely un-ethical and not a an appreciate able move by the decision makers. If Russia had found this an appropriate solution for their soldiers, that was 20 years back when AIDS and other STDs hadn't made their way to this "entertainment". Moreover 300 women for an army of 6 Lack? that means 1 women for 2000 desperate soldiers? Tch! I must write few emails to Human Right Activists in India and Kashmir in to take notice of this abuse.

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## SinoIndusFriendship

graphican said:


> Indian Army Checked every single female to make sure they were Diseases free. Did they also check their soldiers if they were not infacted. A Single soldier who would have AIDS would spread it to fellow soldiers.
> 
> Honestly extremely un-ethical and not a an appreciate able move. Make soldiers visit home at least once in 3 months if once a months is too much to be offered.



Or make rotations more often and of longer duration. So when they are at home they can relax, unwind and get some "sex".

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## arsenal_gooner

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> Coming from England the "Brothel Capital of the World"....



It isnt but if you want to belive it then thats your choice 



Brahm0s said:


> i gotta agree with you Lol.




why dont you answer the real question is the indian army using prostitues to keep it soldiers happy


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## Nemesis

I can't believe you are discussing a story broken by a tabloid rag. I call BS.


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## Kasrkin

Link the article please. I don't think it represents very authentic research though since there is a chance elements in it might be true so I'll leave it open. Keep the discussion clean and respectful or I'll close it. Thanks.

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## afriend

Yeah.. really a disjointed article the mental frustration and stuff not withstanding.. recruting prostitutes seems way to advanced for my mind. At least they should have been able to bring in their wives into kashmir( not if to the frontlines) for a day or weeks off something like that would have been better..!!!


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## praveen

afriend said:


> Yeah.. really a disjointed article the mental frustration and stuff not withstanding.. recruting prostitutes seems way to advanced for my mind. At least they should have been able to bring in their wives into kashmir( not if to the frontlines) for a day or weeks off something like that would have been better..!!!



The army actually uses prostitutes to get hold of freedom fighters in Kashmir.I doubt about the authencity of this article but recruiting prostitutes is nothing new


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## afriend

praveen said:


> The army actually uses prostitutes to get hold of freedom fighters in Kashmir.I doubt about the authencity of this article but recruiting prostitutes is nothing new



yeah i think so. may be army thought of rehabilitating these women...nd some pervert reporter might hve twisted the scenario...that can be the case too..!!!


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## Gabbar

*Where is the link?*


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## Omar1984

Kasrkin said:


> Link the article please. I don't think it represents very authentic research though since there is a chance elements in it might be true so I'll leave it open. Keep the discussion clean and respectful or I'll close it. Thanks.



http://dailymailnews.com/0909/08/FrontPage/FrontPage5.php


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## Developereo

Anything that keeps the Indian thugs from raping local Kashmiri women is a good thing.

http://www.fractalenlightenment.com/2009/01/ugly-side-of-indian-army.html

http://hrkashmir.blogspot.com/2007/09/rape-of-kashmiri-women-and-south-asia.html
Since January 1989 to April 30, 2007:
Total killing. 91,865 
Custodial Killing 6,899
*Women gang raped & Molested 9,708*
Civilian arrested 113,798
Structures arsoned / Destroyed 105,353
Children orphaned 106,930
Women widowed 22,530

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## Y2A

toxic_pus said:


> ^^ Jana you are forgetting East Pakistan, Balochistan etc.
> 
> Isn't there something that a person in a glass house shouldn't do with a stone? I keep forgetting what that is.



Allegations on East Pakistan's "events" have their reasons, Indians are more vocal on the issue then the BD people, even if 10% of those allegation are true then it is the matter of embarrassment for us.
that take cares of my explanation, now tell me are you saying "because" Pakistanis have done some thing bad in past therefore it gives you the right to do massacre in Kashmir?


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## Goodperson

Omar1984 said:


> The Daily Mail - Daily News from Pakistan - Newspaper from Pakistan



Any trusted source ?



Developereo said:


> Anything that keeps the Indian thugs from raping local Kashmiri women is a good thing.
> 
> The Ugly Side of the Indian Army - Fractal Enlightenment
> 
> HR Kashmir: Rape of Kashmiri women and the South Asia
> Since January 1989 to April 30, 2007:
> Total killing. 91,865
> Custodial Killing 6,899
> *Women gang raped & Molested 9,708*
> Civilian arrested 113,798
> Structures arsoned / Destroyed 105,353
> Children orphaned 106,930
> Women widowed 22,530



Why is need to divert the topic.

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## Developereo

Goodperson said:


> Why is need to divert the topic.



I agree that rape is more about power and humiliation than sex itself, but it is relevant that the Indian army is acknowleding its soldiers have sexual issues.


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## Goodperson

Developereo said:


> I agree that rape is more about power and humiliation than sex itself, but it is relevant that the Indian army is acknowleding its soldiers have sexual issues.



Exceptions are in every society. Do you mean to say PA soldiers never committed rape? Actions were taken against such incidents if at all that happens with any woman. Anyway that's not topic of discussion.


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## blueoval79

^^^^^^^


Excellent Pakistani Propaganda......All Pakistani Newspapers are good at when spreading Anti India Propaganda.....

Funniest thing..."*Authorotative sources*"...yes Authors Dad.....he must have had enough authority...

They have put an English Sounding name just to give some credibility..


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## forcetrip

Crap of an investigative report .. We are sinking to posting reports like our indian counterparts.


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## DaRk WaVe

What a BS thread, now we going to discuss frustration of IA 
Mods plz close this stupid thread..


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## Developereo

blueoval79 said:


> They have put an English Sounding name just to give some credibility..



You mean like "Times of India", "India Times", "The Tribune"...?


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## Goodperson

The source is not trusted.


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## Developereo

Goodperson said:


> The source is not trusted.

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## TaimiKhan

graphican said:


> Indian Army Checked every single female to make sure they were Diseases free. Did they also check every single soldiers to make sure he was previously infected either?
> 
> Its extremely un-ethical and not a an appreciate able move by the decision makers. If Russia had found this an appropriate solution for their soldiers, that was 20 years back when AIDS and other STDs hadn't made their way to this "entertainment". Moreover 300 women for an army of 6 Lack? that means 1 women for 2000 desperate soldiers? Tch! I must write few emails to Human Right Activists in India and Kashmir in to take notice of this abuse.



Call up Asma Jehangir


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## Tejas-MkII

this thread is total BS ....

not only BS but a cheap thread

if 1% truth is in the report,then belive me indain media made a hell out of this report...

not only media...woman right ,human right ,opposition,etc,etc...

REQUEST TO MOD TO PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD.


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## Saint N sinnerr

I dont think its a BS thread... I must thank to the guy who os ever started it... some times there has to be strange solutions for strange problems.... If an indian army officer wernt to russia to find an answer and he got it , of course the russians wudnt have lied.... 
The sexual frustration in Army is rampant in among every coiuntries personnel eho stay away from home... thats whay a lot of female army recruits face sexual assaults... I mean how long wil U mas*****te?? he he but on a serious note it `might` be a good move..

P.S. any free whores going for civilians as well ????

a clip from heera mandi , just for laughs....


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## Spring Onion

Kasrkin said:


> Link the article please. I don't think it represents very authentic research though since there is a chance elements in it might be true so I'll leave it open. Keep the discussion clean and respectful or I'll close it. Thanks.



The news is true but i did not know that prostitutes are being deployed by India.


I wanted to post the news few days back but then forgot. But in that news there was no mention of prostitutes.


But its true that India is deploying 200 women at border with Pakistan.

They said that they will frisk away the women who crosses border by mistak.

But i dont think so its the main aim.


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## *Awan*

> a clip from heera mandi , just for laughs....



my dear did u also saw that clip where he gives the rating to diamond markets of indo-pak
here india leads man.securing top two positions.


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## SQ8

Nothing new.. the United States made prostitution a booming business during their stay in Vietnam.
Didn't anyone hear what that kid in the Matrix said about food.?? 
"It doesn't have everything the body needs"
Heck..I'd sit on my rump in the cold for hours on guard duty.. as long as I get to romp later.


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## DaRk WaVe

wow, same old illogical concerns  
Who cares, this move will em power ppl in those areas, let them cry...

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## luoshan

arsenal_gooner said:


> Indian army to deploy prostitutes as women battalion in Held Kashmir
> From Christina Palmer
> 
> Special Report
> 
> *New Delhi*The Indian Army is deploying around 200 prostitutes under the cover of Border Security Forces constables in the *Indian occupied Kashmir* along with the Line of Control., The Daily Mail has learnt through authoritative sources.
> According to the sources, the decision of recruiting prostitutes for deployment in the *held valley* was taken some six months back and Indian Army Chief General Kapoor finally approved it. *The Daily Mail* has learnt that this decision was taken as result of discussions and consultancies regarding the alarmingly increasing incidents of suicides and killing colleagues by soldiers of Indian army that are deployed in the Indian Occupied Kashmir to fight insurgency. The Daily Mails investigations indicate that the factor of suicides and random shoot outs on colleagues by Indian soldiers in the held valley had become a big dilemma for the Indian army top brass. When this exercise gained momentum earlier this year, the army leadership approached different consultants and analysts. The consultants and analysts reached to the conclusion that Indian soldiers, deployed in the valley were committing suicides and killing colleagues out of acute frustration and depression. Medical and psychological consultants and analysts were of the view that since majority of the soldiers, deployed in the valley were married and were away from their wives for very long time, they were gripped by sexual frustrations which ultimately transformed into mental frustration. These consultants suggested that the soldier posted in the valley should be sent on leaves to be with their wives once a month. This came as another dilemma for the Indian Armys top brass as it was not possible at all to send such huge number of soldiers on leaves with regular intervals. The Daily Mails investigations further reveal that upon this a Major General was sent to Moscow to get some solution to the problems as Russians have been having some sort of similar problems around 2 decades back. This General, identified as General Kumar, returned with a very strange solution. The Russian consultants told the Indian army that the since the soldiers in the valley were women starving, they should be provided with women to meet their genuine and natural needs.




No link to the news article? sounds dubious..
Usually international media refers to J&K as _India controlled/administered Kashmir_.... _India occupied Kashmir_ or _Held Valley_ are usually terms used by Pakistani media.


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## Spring Onion

luoshan said:


> No link to the news article? sounds dubious..
> Usually international media refers to J&K as _India controlled/administered Kashmir_.... _India occupied Kashmir_ or _Held Valley_ are usually terms used by Pakistani media.



Check Times of India the news was there also sans the word prostitutes


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## blueoval79

Jana said:


> Check Times of India the news was there also sans the word prostitutes


Could you please post the link here.

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## luoshan

Jana said:


> Check Times of India the news was there also sans the word prostitutes



Searched in ToI and daily times websites, but couldn't find this news article. Wish you could post the links...
Thanks. Cheers


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## EjazR

The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Frontpage | Chug to Kashmir through India&#146;s longest tunnel

MUZAFFAR RAINA


Srinagar, Sept. 6: Jammu and Kashmir is bracing for a rare feat: the opening of the countrys longest railway tunnel that will realise the century-old dream of connecting the Valley with the rest of India by train.

Eight kilometres of the 11km tunnel have been completed, and it is set to be opened for traffic by December next year. The tunnel will run from Qazigund in the Valley to Banihal in Jammu, boring through the mighty Pir Panjal mountains.

It will be Asias second-largest tunnel, behind only the 20km Wushaoling tunnel in Gansu, northwest China, easily beating Indias current longest, the 6.5km Karbude tunnel of the Konkan Railway.

This is surely an engineering marvel, said Colonel Parminder Singh, assistant general manager of Ircon, the railway ministry arm constructing the tunnel. We have completed 4.5km from the Banihal side and 3.5km from the Qazigund side. We are now in the last stage of the project.

The Rs 647-crore project will cap another milestone by the railways  the 119km stretch from Baramulla in north Kashmir to Qazigund in south Kashmir, which became operational a few months ago.

However, a Valley resident who catches a train from Baramulla or Srinagar and arrives in Banihal will then have to ride a bus or car to Udhampur before he can take a train again to travel deeper into India. The railway stretch from Banihal to Udhampur is yet to be completed.

Work on the tunnel began six years ago simultaneously with the Qazigund-Baramulla stretch after then Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee announced a 292km rail link between Baramulla and Udhampur, connecting the Valley with the rest of country, a project conceived more than 100 years ago.

When completed, it would be a viable alternative to the 300km Jammu-Srinagar highway, on which travel is risky but which is now the only surface link between Kashmir and the rest of India.

The Rs 11,000-crore rail link is divided into three sections  Udhampur-Katra, Katra-Qazigund and Qazigund-Baramulla. The third stretch alone stands completed and is operational.

The remaining two sections pass through difficult terrain and will have numerous tunnels and bridges, including the worlds highest bridge, 359 metres high and 1.3km long, over the river Chenab.

Only when these two sections are complete will the dream of a long-distance train chugging into the Valley from mainland India be realised. Work on the Katra-Qazigund stretch, however, was stopped last year after some experts raised doubts about the track alignment.

But work on the Qazigund-Banihal tunnel has continued uninterrupted, and care is being taken to provide it with modern drainage, fire-fighting and ventilation facilities. The tunnel has a three-metre-wide road running parallel to the tracks to deal with emergencies.

Construction is being done following the Austrian tunnelling method, first used in India for the Delhi Metro. The method involves the integration of surrounding soil formations into a ring-like support structure.

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## Brahm0s

Lol am just thinking if its only about indian army and They only sex hungry. Am just wondering what pakistani and chinese army does LOL. i mean look at china. They got double the army compared to india. Am just wondering what they do??? Yes i heard that chinese communist goverment worried of china's increasing 'prostitution' industry and i heard chinese goverment crack down on agents (which are alot good) but what will happen to chinese army??? Two things coming in my mind. One is may be chinese army turn monks lol. 2nd is indian tigers vanishing. No indian 'tiger' no 'bones' that chinese loves to eat for 'performing' on 'bed' lol cheers.


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## ghamai

mjnaushad said:


> If thats true then it might solve the sex frustration problem but will increase AIDS and HIV in army personnel. and when they'll get back they'll transfer it to there family as well. So i guess its better that 1 or 2 soldier shoot themselves in a month instead of whole battalion gets AIDS in a week.



yeh toh achi baat hain na? agar poora army bhi aids se suffer kare toh bhi kam hain india ke liye


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## ratolz

BS thread. We are here to discuss defence, Not prostitutes.


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## EjazR

The Hindu : Opinion / Lead : The Hurriyat's moment of decision

Will New Delhi's latest attempt at an engagement with Kashmir's secessionists prove more fortunate than its four earlier attempts?

Speaking from the ramparts of the Red Fort on Independence Day last month, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said he saw "no place for separatist thought in Jammu and Kashmir." From much of this summer, though, envoys from New Delhi have held a series of secret meetings with the leadership of the secessionist coalition which constitutes the principal voice of that sentiment: the All Parties Hurriyat Conference. New Delhi hopes to revive the negotiations which collapsed in 2005.

Each time in the past, talks with the Hurriyat have led to what has become depressingly familiar: impasse. Will this fifth attempt prove more fortunate than the four ill-fated rounds? New Delhi's renewed pursuit of peace isn't difficult to understand. Levels of jihadist violence have diminished steadily since 2002, and a record number of voters defied secessionists to participate in the Jammu and Kashmir Assembly elections last year. But Islamist-led hardliners have succeeded in generating urban protests which, though limited in scale, have repeatedly brought the State government to its knees.

Policymakers are hoping that the foundations for a successful dialogue can soon be put in place. Kashmiri secessionists are being encouraged to articulate a political vision that acknowledges India's concerns over sovereignty. Rejectionists such as the hardline Islamist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani and his jihadist allies are also being addressed. Perhaps most important, Pakistan is being asked to endorse the talks - no small ask at a time when its relationship with India is fraught.

Hopes that the Hurriyat can be persuaded to operate within the structures of democratic politics are founded on the realisation that many secessionists want a negotiated end to a battle they cannot win.

Back in 1997, the former Jamaat -e-Islami chief, Ghulam Mohammad Bhat, called for "a political dialogue." In 1999, Hurriyat leader Abdul Gani Butt broke ranks with his organisation, and called for talks between secessionists and mainstream groups like the National Conference and the Congress to build consensus on the State's future.

During the summer of 2002, the Hurriyat's Abdul Gani Lone emerged as the principal voice of pro-dialogue realists. He travelled to Sharjah for discussions with the powerful Pakistan-administered Kashmir leader Sardar Abdul Qayoom Khan and the then- Inter Services Intelligence chief, Lieutenant-General Ehsan-ul-Haq. *Lone is believed to have told both men that the Hurriyat Conference had no choice but to initiate a direct dialogue with New Delhi. Not long after the meeting, though, Lone was assassinated by a Lashkar-e-Taiba hit squad - a blunt message to all those contemplating making a deal with New Delhi.*

In an effort to move the dialogue process along, the then Deputy Prime Minister L.K. Advani met with the Hurriyat leadership for the first time in January 2004. This was followed up with a second meeting that March. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh held two more rounds of talks, in May and September 2005.

*But fearful of the jihadist wrath, the Hurriyat never brought an agenda to the table. In March 2006, APHC leaders promised the mediators that they would attend Dr. Singh's second Roundtable Conference on Jammu and Kashmir, but backed off after threats from the Hizb-ul-Mujahideen.*

New Delhi now focussed its energies on Pakistan. In secret meetings which began in 2005, Dr. Singh's envoy, *S.K. Lambah, and his Pakistani counterpart, Tariq Aziz, arrived at five points of convergence. First, the two men agreed, there would be no redrawing of the Line of Control. Second, they accepted that there would have to be greater political autonomy on both sides of Jammu and Kashmir. Mr. Lambah and Mr. Aziz also agreed that India would move troops, co-operatively manage some resources, and, finally, open the LoC for travel and trade.*

Emboldened by this progress, Mirwaiz Farooq began to prepare his constituency for the future. During a January 20, 2006 dinner hosted by Pakistan-administered Kashmir Prime Minister Sardar Attique Khan on January 20, 2006, the Srinagar cleric candidly admitted that the secessionist movement had failed. "We have already seen the results of our fight on the political, diplomatic and military fronts, which have not achieved anything other than creating more graveyards,." he said.

"I think the agenda is pretty much set," the Mirwaiz told an interviewer in April 2007. "It is September 2007," he went on, "that India and Pakistan are looking at, in terms of announcing something on Kashmir."
*
The Hurriyat leaders hoped that that the deal would hand them power - but by the time Mr. Lambah and Mr. Aziz arrived at their five-point formula, President Pervez Musharraf was in the midst of a storm that would sweep him out of power.
*
Desperate, the Hurriyat leadership reached out again to New Delhi. "Let us come out of our delusions," Mirwaiz Farooq said at a May 19, 2008 seminar in Srinagar. Mr. Butt, in turn, called on the National Conference and the People's Democratic Party to work with the secessionist formation to "mutually work out a joint settlement." For his part, the People's Conference chief Sajjad Lone called on the secessionists to focus on the "achievable."

Mr. Geelani hit back, using ethnic-communal issues to mobilise people people against what he described as a sell-out. Speaking at a religious conference in Baramulla on May 26 last year, he warned his audience that India was seeking to change "the Muslim majority into a minority by settling down troops along with their families." Then, "they will either massacre Muslims as they did in Jammu in 1947, or carry out a genocide as was done in Gujarat.".

By June, helped on by the communal storms unleashed by the grant of land- use rights to the trust which manages the Amarnath shrine in south Kashmir, Mr. Geelani was able to turn the tables on the Hurriyat's realists. In a June 19 declaration, authored in the midst of the Shrine Board violence, the Mirwaiz dropped the option of direct talks with the Indian government. "Both sides," the document states, "after considerable argument and discussion, reached the conclusion that the Hurriyat Conference will continue its political struggle for self-determination, which can be achieved through tri-partite talks [involving Pakistan] against the backdrop of the historic struggle of the Kashmiris."

Last year, though, the wheel began to turn again. Kashmir's people rejected Mr. Geelani's calls to oppose the elections. Islamist mobilisations this summer remained confined to urban centres, a sign of their diminishing credibility.

In June, on his way home from Yekaterinburg in Russia, the Prime Minister announced that he had "not given up hope on Jammu and Kashmir." "I have always said that we would be happy to engage in a dialogue with any groups, and I mean any groups," he said. Asked specifically about the Hurriyat, the Prime Minister said, "Iif they have any views, we are quite willing to discuss them."

Mirwaiz Farooq has said he wants New Delhi to first implement a five-point agenda to "prepare the ground for negotiations." These are: the revocation of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act as well as other special terrorism-related legislation, graduated demilitarisation of the State, the initiation of a process to narrow the differences between the parties to the dispute, the promotion of free trade across the LoC and, finally, India committing itself to a strategy "free of all political gimmicks and purely based on far-sightedness, wisdom and realism."

New Delhi is unlikely to meet these demands. As things stand, its negotiators are even resisting a meeting between the Mirwaiz and the Prime Minister until preliminary negotiations have been conducted to prepare an agenda.

Behind his resistance to this line of action lies one stark fact: the realists have never been in a weaker political position. Even in his old-city Srinagar heartland, Mirwaiz Farooq's repeated calls to pro-Islamist youth to end their now-routine clashes with the police have been ignored. Sajjad Lone's historic decision to fight the Baramulla Lok Sabha elections ended in an ignominious defeat.

Key elements of the Lambah-Aziz formula, on which the realists had pinned their hopes, have meanwhile been appropriated by mainstream parties. Last month, PDP leader Mehbooba Mufti laid out her vision for an "azaad riyasat"- a term she translated for The Hindu as a "free state," but could also mean an "independent state." Based on the PDP's Self-Rule Document, she called for a free movement across Jammu and Kashmir's international frontiers, demilitarisation and the creation of cross-LoC political institutions.

For its part, the National Conference has been campaigning for the revocation of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act and a dialogue between New Delhi and the Hizb - issues on which the Hurriyat once spoke alone. Little space has thus been left for the Hurriyat to claim a victory - but the cost of rejecting New Delhi's new engagement could mean complete marginalisation. Either way, Mirwaiz Farooq's decision will be fateful.


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## Peshwa

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Your challenge is a logical fallacy - argumentum ad ignorantiam, or proving a negative.
> 
> I cannot prove that which does not exist, which is why a court of law places the burden of proof on the accuser, to prove the crime, and not on the accused to prove their innocence.
> 
> So the burden of proof is on Indians, to show that all this massive 'ID card fraud' and settlers etc. have impacted the demographic balance.



First off, you fail to realize that the "proof" to show how the demography has been affected on the Pakistani side would be available only via a census conducted by Pakistani authorities....why would you people dig a grave for yourselves by conducting such a survey only to show how much Pakistan really "cares" about maintaining the integrity of Kashmir......

And please read my post carefully, since Im the accuser according to you, I only accused Pak of not passing laws like India to prevent dilution of Kashmir....which is true.....What else do you want me to prove?

Us Indians have done our due diligence by passing laws preventing other Indians from buying land in Kashmir, conducting surveys and maintaining records of Kashmiri's to prevent "dilution".....
If you dont have a response to show what Pakistan has done towards the same.....then shut up instead of trying to twist words to prove a point!!!
Our actions speak louder than your words.....

Do you have an answer to my question about how "Kashmiri" are the Kashmiri's in the Pakistan occupied side???

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Peshwa said:


> First off, you fail to realize that the "proof" to show how the demography has been affected on the Pakistani side would be available only via a census conducted by Pakistani authorities....why would you people dig a grave for yourselves by conducting such a survey only to show how much Pakistan really "cares" about maintaining the integrity of Kashmir......
> 
> Us Indians have done our due diligence by passing laws preventing other Indians from buying land in Kashmir, conducting surveys and maintaining records of Kashmiri's to prevent "dilution".....
> If you dont have a response to show what Pakistan has done towards the same.....then shut up instead of trying to twist words to prove a point!!!
> Our actions speak louder than your words.....
> 
> Do you have an answer to my question about how "Kashmiri" are the Kashmiri's in the Pakistan occupied side???


My my, no answer and shown to have made an illogical claim so we resort to being rude now eh.

The point remains that the accusation is yours and therefore the burden of proof to substantiate the accusation is also yours. That's bare-bones, simple reasoning - the 'word games' are all yours.

The lack of a census does not establish guilt - it does however suggest that all of the Indians and apologists for the Indian allegations on major demographic changes in the NA's and Azad Kashmir are talking out of their arse since they can't validate their allegations with any evidence.

Either prove your contention or just slink away admitting you can't.


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## dabong1

Peshwa said:


> First off, you fail to realize that the "proof" to show how the demography has been affected on the Pakistani side would be available only via a census conducted by Pakistani authorities....why would you people dig a grave for yourselves by conducting such a survey only to show how much Pakistan really "cares" about maintaining the integrity of Kashmir......




No need for a census.....any person can live in AJK but cant become a citizen or vote in kashmir elections.



Peshwa said:


> And please read my post carefully, since Im the accuser according to you, I only accused Pak of not passing laws like India to prevent dilution of Kashmir....which is true.....What else do you want me to prove?
> 
> Us Indians have done our due diligence by passing laws preventing other Indians from buying land in Kashmir, conducting surveys and maintaining records of Kashmiri's to prevent "dilution".....
> If you dont have a response to show what Pakistan has done towards the same.....then shut up instead of trying to twist words to prove a point!!!
> Our actions speak louder than your words.....



Non kashmiris living in AJK or any part of pakistan can not buy land in AJK but people from AJK can buy land anywhere in pakistan.



Peshwa said:


> Do you have an answer to my question about how "Kashmiri" are the Kashmiri's in the Pakistan occupied side???



What a silly question.......lets just ask the kashmiris what they want.....india or pakistan

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## UnitedPak

Halaku Khan said:


> In fact there ae no "Kashmiris" on the Pakistani side because they do not belong to the Kashmiri ethnic group and do not know how to speak the Kashmiri language. All the genuine Kashmiris are on the Indian side.
> 
> Nevertheless, it must be noted that even the non-Kashmiri speaking populations who are native to Pakistan occupied Kashmir have been diluted with immigrants from Punjab and NWFP. Obviously, such non-natives and their descendants should have no role in determining the future of Pakistan occupied Kashmir.



Never heard such a silly and simple minded theory on Kashmir before.

India has all the "genuine Kashmiris"??. No offence, but how old are you? Whatever you define as "genuine Kashmiris" it would seem the vast majority want freedom from India.

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## Peshwa

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> My my, no answer and shown to have made an illogical claim so we resort to being rude now eh.
> 
> The point remains that the accusation is yours and therefore the burden of proof to substantiate the accusation is also yours. That's bare-bones, simple reasoning - the 'word games' are all yours.
> 
> The lack of a census does not establish guilt - it does however suggest that all of the Indians and apologists for the Indian allegations on major demographic changes in the NA's and Azad Kashmir are talking out of their arse since they can't validate their allegations with any evidence.
> 
> Either prove your contention or just slink away admitting you can't.



Here you go.....

"A conscious policy of bringing about a change in the demographic composition of the area was initiated by Zia after the success of the Islamic Revolution in Iran in 1979 in order to counter the growing sectarian consciousness of the Shias and their demand for political and economic rights on par with the Sunnis. This change was sought to be brought about by encouraging and facilitating the migration of Sunnis from the other provinces and the Federally-Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) and by re-settling Sunni ex-servicemen in the area. As a result, the Shias and the Ismailis, who constituted about 85 per cent of the population in 1948, today constitute only about 53 per cent of the population. The Sunnis form about 42 per cent and the remaining five per cent belong to other sects of Islam"

"In 1948, the sons of the soil (Ladakhis and Ladakhi-related ethnic groups of various hues) constituted about 80 per cent of the total population. Today, they constitute about 53 per cent. Pashtuns from the North-West Frontier Province (NWFP) constitute about 24 per cent, Punjabis about six per cent, Mirpuris from the *** about three per cent, Pashtuns from the FATA about one per cent, Sindhis and Mohajirs from Sindh about one per cent and Balochs less than one per cent. The provincial and ethnic origin of the remaining 11 per cent is not known."

Now why dont you follow suit to your own advice and counter the claims made in the below link:

UNREST IN GILGIT-BALTISTAN


Also do read up on the Balwaristan National Front and Its Chairman Abdul Hamid Khan who is fighting for independence from Pakistan occupation of Gilgit-Baltistan states that 'The Pakistani administration has also been involved in efforts to alter the demographic profile of Pakistan-occupied Gilgit Baltistan, reducing the indigenous people to a minority"

"The Pakistani administration has also been involved in efforts to alter the demographic profile of Pakistan-occupied Gilgit Baltistan, reducing the indigenous people to a minority. In the Gilgit and Skardu areas, large tracts of land have been allotted to non-locals. Other outsiders have purchased substantial stretches of land since they are, by and large, economically better off than the locals. As of January 2001, the old population ratio of 1:4 (non-locals to locals) had been transformed to 3:4. The rapid induction of Punjabi and Pashtun outsiders has created a sense of acute insecurity among the locals. Balawaristan is also a deprived region in terms of education and infrastructure, and there is only a negligible presence of daily newspapers, radio or TV stations"

Asia Times

In your words "Either prove your contention or just slink away admitting you 
can't"
Your turn.....


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## Peshwa

dabong1 said:


> No need for a census.....any person can live in AJK but cant become a citizen or vote in kashmir elections.
> 
> 
> Non kashmiris living in AJK or any part of pakistan can not buy land in AJK but people from AJK can buy land anywhere in pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> What a silly question.......lets just ask the kashmiris what they want.....india or pakistan




Read my previous post.....


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## sajan

Good news indeed. Well anyone have pics of those tunnels?


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## luoshan

great news.. one more communication link to the valley...
This will be great for the defense of the kashmir valley in case of hostilities with Pakistan and the lone highway to the valley is damaged.Also, the highway is difficult to navigate during winter. But the train link can be operated all year round.


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## Y2A

Gabbar said:


> Just one issue with this. Even Indian agencies can't count and trace all of the Pandits who left for many years. It will be like finding a piece of hay in a gigantic needle stack.



Use a gigantic magnet.


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## Y2A

brahmastra said:


> Are you living in 90's? I hope not.



Its really interesting, i am talking about your posture, when ever their is any sort of FLAMING Indo-Pak discussion, indians more often then not are quite habitual of bringing "1971 Bangladesh liberation war" forward, which usually in the perspective of the discussion seems quite irrelevant,,and here, if some one tries to present some sequential glimpses of the facts regarding an ongoing conflict you are literally trying to run away by declaring it as past, probably you guys are still living in 70s i hope not.



brahmastra said:


> Its not new that terrorists rape and kill innocent kashmiri people in Indian army dress to simply create hatred in people.they know they donot have moral support of people as they target common people not only military establishment.



Nice BS, but still BS, its actually other way around, IA personals are quite eager to "present" themselves as freedom fighters and defame their name, little of the guard but reports are that BRAVE COL PROHIT was learning Arabic for "soul satisfaction", beside that you are telling the world that in the presence of 7 hundred thousand troops some "pretenders" are running around wearing official uniforms and doing what you claimed they did, just think about it for a moment, enough evidence has already been provided.


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## Y2A

further


brahmastra said:


> People of Kashmir do want to live with India.
> Only few people in kashmir vally are not supporting India. Infact they are afraid of militants not the Indian Army that they can not openly support India.



ohh no.. hell is just got frozen, you believe this, have a plebiscite in occupied valley according to the UN resolution and you'll have your ansawer, those "few" people are actually "quite a few" which will ultimately make you sad for the "few" you are talking about, your army is not on picnic in the valley (famous Mush's saying)



brahmastra said:


> These hurriyat people do not have any support of the people or say people do not support hurriyat.



well i can only say kindly review the number of audience present in public demonstrations held by APHC over the years and people's response to their calls, don't be an ostrich, it hurts heads and eyes both.


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## oct605032048

is it true or just a joke?


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## SeaGull

Do these GIRLS get ranks, uniforms, promotions just like the Army?


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## Comet

providing prostitutes to soldiers is semi-official. Army is not providing every soldier with one instead they have sent these prostitutes there and has given soldiers a chance to make friendship with their fellow women soldiers and later have fun. 

but I think this would be the dumbest thing to do. this can bring chaos in Army's discipline. not to mention the problems of AIDs, HIV, etc.


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## iamunique

Just want to mention a peculiar thing I've noticed about the attitude of Pakistanis about us Indians - The Pakistanis somehow have this idea that we Indians are a morally degraded, cowardly bunch of idiots. It is this overconfident attitude of theirs which has been their downfall in all the major wars they've fought with us. Whether it was '47, '65, '71 or '99 -- they just felt that we 'morally weak' indians wouldn't have the stomach to stand-up to their bravado. But the results are plain for all to see - even after 60 years of constant Pakistani stabbing & backstabbing 'Indian Occupied Kashmir' is still called 'Indian Occupied Kashmir' whereas East Pakistan is called 'Bangladesh'. So all I can say to the Pakistanis is - keep dishing out such reports about us morally debased Indians, more than highlighting the sexual frustration of us Indians it just shows the collective national frustration of the Pakistanis on the Kashmir issue. 

P.S: But IF this report IS true, all I would say to the Indian Army soldiers "Have a good f****** time boys, you deserve it!".


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## Righteous_Fire

*Who says this isnt true or not related to Kashmir!??* 

This is about the Indian Army and its activities in Kashmir.

I am sorry, but both ways this is directly related to us:

1) The past and present operational activities of the Indian Army against the people who revolt

2) Kashmir is the Sheh Rag (Aorta/Jugular) of Pakistan. If you dont have any feelings for the Poor Kashmiri Women, *then I suggest you put your female relatives in perspective and you'll understand the pain of humiliation and torture.* as do we for all Hindu women who may suffer rape, humiliation or such. *Remember, no one even said Muslim, we said Kashmiri* and yes this includes Hindu Kashmiri ladies as well.

*Just because it comes from Pakistanis,* should not be a cause to reject it outrightly. *Brave up to the reality.* Yes Heera mandi exists in Lahore, yes it is bad for us *But can you even begin to compare it to women who have to undergo the se*** desires and have to satisfy s** starved soldiers far away from home wit the prospect of being killed everyday!!* 

*Here are some more links:*

ASIAN DEFENCE: Indian army to deploy prostitutes as women battalion in Held Kashmir??

News - Indian army to deploy prostitutes as women batt...

======================================

*Some Real steps to counter this genuine need:*

1) If AIDS in the Indian Army and Police is not a serious issue for you visit:

Subitems

it says:

*UNAIDS India has highlighted HIV and AIDS as a central issue for India&#8217;s police and paramilitary personnel.*

and *that is coming from the UN*

2) If you still Discriminate, Stigmatize and or Deny this, visit:

India : HIV/AIDS related discrimination, stigmatization and denial

where it says:

*Page 1
India:
HIV and AIDS-related
Discrimination, Stigmatization
and Denial
Page 2
&#169; Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS
(UNAIDS) 2001.
All rights reserved. This document, which is not a formal
publication of UNAIDS, may be freely reviewed,
quoted, reproduced or translated, in part or in full,
provided the source is acknowledged. The document
may not be sold or used in conjunction with commercial
purposes without prior written approval from UNAIDS
(contact: UNAIDS Information Centre).
The views expressed in documents by named authors
are solely the responsibility of those authors.
The designations employed and the presentation of the
material in this work do not imply the expression of any
opinion whatsoever on the part of UNAIDS concerning
the legal status of any country, territory, city or area or
of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its
frontiers and boundaries.
The mention of specific companies or of certain
manufacturers&#8217; products does not imply that they are
endorsed or recommended by UNAIDS in preference to
others of a similar nature that are not mentioned. Errors
and omissions excepted, the names of proprietary
products are distinguished by initial capital letters.
UNAIDS/01.46E (English original, August 2001)
ISBN 92-9173-104-8
UNAIDS &#8211; 20 avenue Appia &#8211; 1211 Geneva 27 &#8211; Switzerland
Telephone: (+41 22) 791 46 51 &#8211; Fax: (+41 22) 791 41 87
e-mail: unaids@unaids.org &#8211; Internet: UNAIDS: The Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS
Prepared for UNAIDS
by
Shalini Bharat
Tata Institute of Social Sciences, Mumbai, India
with
Peter Aggleton and Paul Tyrer
Thomas Coram Research Unit
Institute of Education, University of London, United Kingdom
UNAIDS Responsible Officer &#8211; Miriam Maluwa, Law and Human Rights Adviser.
Page 3
India:
HIV and AIDS-related
Discrimination,
Stigmatization and
Denial
India:
HIV and AIDS-related
Discrimination,
Stigmatization and
Denial
*

3) The Personnel of the IA or Police *are ordinary human beings.* S** like other faculties is a basic need for any human being. Instead of artificially arranging ways to quiet it down or blunt it, *do the right natural thing.* *Give them appropriate leave to visit their own homes.* Wouldnt it be nice for a father, husband, son of the IA or Police to nurture his home *rather than wasting his faculties on a process that is riddled with disease and shame??*

*PS* *AIDS is a reality!! dont hide from it!! Face it and Prevent it*, whether you are an Indian or a Pakistani. *And I am saying this as a Medical Doctor not as an Indian Hating Pakistani*

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## bigmoneymaker

best to have indian army exhausted at doing sex..... the army should have healthy amusement to divert their sexual drive that weaken the morale and disciplines of the strong will army.....like nurture the ability to perceive traditional music and keep on progressive views on the current situations, which in return also nurture army patriotic love towards indigenious culture and local people......if this news is true, how can you push back invaders....please tell me


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## blueoval79

MODS ARE sleeping...i guess...ar have you people stated enjoying ...people disrespecting wome soldiers....speaks loads about Pakistani menatlity....


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Peshwa said:


> Here you go.....
> 
> "A conscious policy of bringing about a change in the demographic composition of the area was initiated by Zia after the success of the Islamic Revolution in Iran in 1979 in order to counter the growing sectarian consciousness of the Shias and their demand for political and economic rights on par with the Sunnis. This change was sought to be brought about by encouraging and facilitating the migration of Sunnis from the other provinces and the Federally-Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) and by re-settling Sunni ex-servicemen in the area. As a result, the Shias and the Ismailis, who constituted about 85 per cent of the population in 1948, today constitute only about 53 per cent of the population. The Sunnis form about 42 per cent and the remaining five per cent belong to other sects of Islam"
> 
> "In 1948, the sons of the soil (Ladakhis and Ladakhi-related ethnic groups of various hues) constituted about 80 per cent of the total population. Today, they constitute about 53 per cent. Pashtuns from the North-West Frontier Province (NWFP) constitute about 24 per cent, Punjabis about six per cent, Mirpuris from the *** about three per cent, Pashtuns from the FATA about one per cent, Sindhis and Mohajirs from Sindh about one per cent and Balochs less than one per cent. The provincial and ethnic origin of the remaining 11 per cent is not known."
> 
> Now why dont you follow suit to your own advice and counter the claims made in the below link:
> 
> UNREST IN GILGIT-BALTISTAN
> 
> 
> Also do read up on the Balwaristan National Front and Its Chairman Abdul Hamid Khan who is fighting for independence from Pakistan occupation of Gilgit-Baltistan states that 'The Pakistani administration has also been involved in efforts to alter the demographic profile of Pakistan-occupied Gilgit Baltistan, reducing the indigenous people to a minority"
> 
> "The Pakistani administration has also been involved in efforts to alter the demographic profile of Pakistan-occupied Gilgit Baltistan, reducing the indigenous people to a minority. In the Gilgit and Skardu areas, large tracts of land have been allotted to non-locals. Other outsiders have purchased substantial stretches of land since they are, by and large, economically better off than the locals. As of January 2001, the old population ratio of 1:4 (non-locals to locals) had been transformed to 3:4. The rapid induction of Punjabi and Pashtun outsiders has created a sense of acute insecurity among the locals. Balawaristan is also a deprived region in terms of education and infrastructure, and there is only a negligible presence of daily newspapers, radio or TV stations"
> 
> Asia Times
> 
> In your words "Either prove your contention or just slink away admitting you
> can't"
> Your turn.....


First the credibility of those assertions needs to be established - what are the sources behind the numbers claimed in those articles?

If I read it correctly, the first article is by B Raman, another Pakistan hater extraordinaire - hardly an independent and neutral source.


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## TaimiKhan

blueoval79 said:


> MODS ARE sleeping...i guess...ar have you people stated enjoying ...people disrespecting wome soldiers....speaks loads about Pakistani menatlity....



There is no disrespect going on against the Indian Army, no abuses have been launched nor their fighting ability has been challenged. 

In my view, best option would be to find the main source of the article, Christina Plamer is the lady who has written it, check it out if any other source has quoted her. 2ndly, any rebuttal done by any Indian Organization or any other authentic source to be foundd so that this topic comes to a close. 

This topic is not new just to the Indian Army, in past also we have seen many other armies alleged or done such acts.

I do hope myself, IA won't be doing such a thing, as it gives a bad name to such a traditionally reputed army, but the recent allegations of sex scandal in Congo during UN mission & hundreds of cases of rape in Kashmir does gives a credibility to it.


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## Peshwa

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> First the credibility of those assertions needs to be established - what are the sources behind the numbers claimed in those articles?
> 
> If I read it correctly, the first article is by B Raman, another Pakistan hater extraordinaire - hardly an independent and neutral source.



AM you're quite predictable......

Conviniently......you have chosen to ignore the report by Asia Times Online, a highly respectable and neutral source of information on Asian matters......

Or is that too biased for you as well?? Maybe its a propoganda "pro-India" or RAW sponsored news source.....

Since you require more credible sources, how about the below UN Refugee Agency Report:

"*The appropriation of land in the Northern Areas by non-Kashmiri migrants from elsewhere in Pakistan, with the tacit encouragement of the federal government and army, has led to dwindling economic opportunities for the local population and an increase in sectarian tension between the majority Shia Muslims and a growing number of Sunnis*. Ethnic violence first erupted in 1988, with riots in Gilgit that killed at least 150 people, and it continues to be a concern. According to the International Crisis Group (ICG), between June 2004 and October 2005 as many as 100 people died in sectarian violence that broke out over a government decision to introduce a new educational curriculum. The situation improved somewhat in subsequent years after a group of religious leaders drew up a peace agreement and the authorities cracked down on extremist groups. Sporadic attacks continued to occur, however, and the ICG noted a recent escalation of religious rhetoric and a growing amount of sophisticated weaponry pouring into the area."


"As detailed by Human Rights Watch (HRW) in a 2006 report on the region, individuals and political parties who do not support Kashmir's accession to Pakistan are barred from participating in the political process, standing for election, taking a job with any government institution, or accessing educational institutions[/B][/B]. At least 60 proindependence candidates who belonged to the JKLF, the APNA, and smaller political parties were barred from participating in the July 2006 Azad Kashmir legislative assembly elections. Overall, HRW noted that the election process was flawed and "greeted with widespread charges of poll rigging by opposition political parties and independent analysts." However, unlike the 2001 elections, the polls featured few instances of physical violence and harassment &#8211; aside from threats &#8211; against candidates or their supporters, possibly because of the greater international presence in the wake of the earthquake. In general, antiaccession parties and individuals are subject to surveillance, harassment, and sometimes imprisonment by Pakistani intelligence and security services"

"The Pakistani government uses the constitution and other laws to curb freedom of speech on a variety of subjects, including the status of Kashmir and incidents of sectarian violence. In recent years, authorities have banned several local newspapers from publishing and have detained or otherwise harassed Kashmiri journalists. In March 2007, the government suspended its advertisements in publications by the Dawn English-language media group after it reported on a possible resurgence of official support for militants in Kashmir. In April 2007, Dawn reported that the editor and publisher of the banned monthly Kargil International magazine were indicted on sedition and defamation charges for publishing a proindependence article in 2004. In addition to pressure and threats from the authorities, journalists have been known to face harassment and attacks from nonstate actors, though no such incidents were reported in 2007. During the state of emergency imposed on the rest of Pakistan in November 2007, cable operators in Kashmir were instructed to suspend broadcasts of most national and international news channels."

"Pakistan is an Islamic republic, and there are numerous restrictions on religious freedom. Religious minorities also face unofficial economic and societal discrimination and are occasionally subject to violent attack. *Shia Muslims, who form the majority of the population in the Northern Areas, include a large number of Ismailis, a group that follows the Aga Khan. Sectarian strife between Shiites and the increasing number of Sunni Muslims (many of whom are migrants from elsewhere in Pakistan) first became a concern in 1988 and continues to be a problem*. In 2005, several waves of sectarian violence killed almost 100 people and led to a month-long curfew. Sporadic attacks continued to take place during 2006, including the destruction by fire of an Ismaili place of worship, but no violent incidents were reported in 2007."

*"The constitution of Azad Kashmir forbids individuals and political parties from taking part in activities that are prejudicial to the ideology of the state's accession to Pakistan."*

"According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP), Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) operates throughout Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas and engages in extensive surveillance (particularly of proindependence groups and the press), as well as arbitrary arrests and detentions. In some instances, those detained by the ISI, the police, or the security forces are tortured, and several cases of death in custody have been reported. Impunity for acts of torture and other mistreatment of civilians by the military and intelligence services remains the norm. The territory also continues to be governed by the colonial-era Frontier Crimes Regulations, under which residents are required to report to local police stations once a month."

UNHCR | Refworld | Freedom in the World 2008 - Kashmir [Pakistan]

I have bolded the parts that are applicable to your query.....

I also wanted to highlight some of the other "wonderful" rights that the "azad" people of Pakistan Occupied Kashmir enjoy......

Do I need to go any further?......
Let me guess.....Its still not credible......

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## IndianSuperpower

ghamai said:


> yeh toh achi baat hain na? agar poora army bhi aids se suffer kare toh bhi kam hain india ke liye



Actually Indian army is trying to show that prostitues of indian origin are enough to fight the enemies. At least they didint tried eunuchs. 

Now I think the enemy army or freedom fighters have to fight prostitues first before facing Indian army. 

Is it not a disgrace for the other side. Indians should not do it. We should respect all armies and fighters.

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## Comet

IndianSuperpower said:


> Actually Indian army is trying to show that prostitues of indian origin are enough to fight the enemies. At least they didint tried eunuchs.
> 
> Now I think the enemy army or freedom fighters have to fight prostitues first before facing Indian army.
> 
> Is it not a disgrace for the other side. Indians should not do it. We should respect all armies and fighters.



hahaha...... very funny
it also shows that even prostitutes are better than Indian soldier!


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## IndianSuperpower

umairp said:


> hahaha...... very funny
> it also shows that even prostitutes are better than Indian soldier!



Yes Indian prostitutes are better then Indian soldiers in prostitution. Actually Indian army fights only for India and prostitutes can go with anyone. So we thought of deploying prostitutes to equalize the stature........... Just kidding....


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## EjazR

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

NEW DELHI: Tajikistan-bound flights from India may soon have a stopover at Srinagar to ease the passage of Kashmiri pilgrims travelling to Tajik capital Dushanbe to visit the shrine of Mir Syed Ali Hamadani, the poet who brought Islam to Kashmir in the 14th century.

India and Tajikistan agreed to establish direct air links during Indian President Pratibha Devisingh Patils visit to Tajikistan. Officials said that since a large number of Kashmiri pilgrims wanted to visit Hamadanis shrine, an air link was currently under discussion. The shrine is located in Kulyab in Khatlan region, 400 kilometres from Dushanbe. The officials said a separate air link could also be considered between Srinagar and Kulyab.

*During her visit, President Patil paid her respects at Hamadanis shrine. Her visit to the tomb was the first by any Indian leader. Parliamentarian Ghulam Hassan Khan from Kashmirs Ladakh region accompanied her. At the site, Patil said: I feel privileged to be visiting the tomb of Syed Hamadani in Kulyab.*

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## EjazR

_This article also tells about how Islam spread to Kashmir through Tajikistan_

The Hindu : News / National : Pratibha&rsquo;s visit to Hamadani mausoleum focuses on Kashmiri link to Tajikistan

The entire Kulyab countryside seemed to have gathered on the roadside as President Pratibha Patil arrived here on Tuesday to pay her respects at the mausoleum of Mir Sayyid Ali Hamadani  the Iranian Sufi saint credited with propagation and spread of Islam in the Kashmir Valley.

Togged out in colourful local costumes  flowing robes, intricately embroidered head dresses and multiple plaits  thousands of schoolchildren and young girls waved and danced as the Presidential cavalcade wound its way from the airport to the shrine.

The throng was impressive by any yardstick, and more so given that Ms. Patils visit coincided with the holy fasting month of Ramadan. Like the rest of the Muslim population in Tajikistan, most of Kylabs residents too were on Roza. Indeed, many among the waiting children had endured long hours in the sun without food or water, but few could have guessed this fact seeing their broad smiles, and cheerful shouts of shalom.

The presiding priest at the Pirs Mausoleum recited the Fatiha, following which Ms. Patil presented a chadar of exquisite beauty, specially made to order and flown all the way from Delhi.

The Presidents visit to the mausoleum is the first by an Indian dignitary, and the Indian side said that it had been drawn up to emphasise the close civilisational ties between the Tajiks and Indians, especially Kashmiris.

Sayyid Hamadani was born in Hamadan in Iran in 1314 but moved to Kashmir with 700 followers to escape persecution at the hands of Timur. In Kashmir, Hamadani and his followers set up a large number of mosques, and, according to author Sadia Dehlvi, they hugely influenced the religious, social, economic and cultural aspects of Kashmiri society.

Some of Hamadanis teachings are considered controversial because of the distinction he made between Muslims and non-Muslims. Yet as Ms. Dehlvi points out, he also wrote that a Muslim ruler, being the shadow of God, should render equitable justice and beneficence to both believers and non-believers.

Even today thousands congregate at the Shah-e-Hamdan mosque in Srinagar to commemorate the saints death anniversary. Also known as the Khanqah-e-Muala, the mosque, which stands on the banks of river Jhelum, was built by Sultan Sikander.
Deeply revered

In her speech, the President brought out the Pirs Kashmir connection saying, I feel privileged to be visiting the tomb of Sayyid Hamadani. He is deeply revered in my country, particularly in Jammu and Kashmir. He is a symbol of enlightenment and knowledge and has contributed greatly in shaping the religious character of Kashmiri society. Hamadani is one of the abiding links between India and Tajikistan. 






_President Pratibha Patil with Tajik Prime Minister Akil Akilov and other officials offering a chadar at Syed Ali Hamadanis mausoleum at Kulyab_

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## EjazR

IHK court quashes PSA against Gilani

SRINAGAR (IHK): In occupied Kashmir, the High Court has quashed the draconian Public Safety Act imposed against ailing senior Kashmiri Hurriyet leader Syed Ali Gilani and ordered his immediate release, reports KMS.

*After hearing the arguments by the petitioner, President Bar Association, advocate Mian Abdul Qayoom, Justice JP Singh of the High Court found as inadequate the evidences provided by the authorities for making any person apt for the PSA and subsequently quashed the Act against Syed Ali Gilani, contemporarily languishing in forest hut turned sub-jail at Chesmashahi in Srinagar.*

Syed Ali Giani was arrested on June 7 during public agitation against the rape and murder of teenaged girl Asiya (17) and her sister-in-law Nelofer (22) at Shopian.

The acting Chairman of Jammu and Kashmir Tehreek-e-Hurriyat, Saifullah in a press statement while condemning the continued detention of Syed Ali Gilani said that authorities are busy to martyr ailing Gilani by suffocating him at Cheshma Shahi sub jail.

Meanwhile, the Jammu and Kashmir Muslim League spokesman in a statement has condemned the continued detention of the Leagues leader, Massrat Aalam Butt from past one year under draconian Public Safety Act (PSA).


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*All posts related to the demographics related question moved here - please continue that discussion on this thread.*


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Peshwa said:


> AM you're quite predictable......
> 
> Conviniently......you have chosen to ignore the report by Asia Times Online, a highly respectable and neutral source of information on Asian matters......


I did not ignore it - the first part of my lasts posts, asking for the sources that were used to arrive at the numbers quoted in both articles, referred to both articles. What did the author in the Asia Times article base his stats on?


> Or is that too biased for you as well?? Maybe its a propoganda "pro-India" or RAW sponsored news source.....


Well the B Raman piece definitely did qualify as from a source that could be branded 'propagandist, RAW sponsored, and pro-India', and I assume we have no disagreement over discrediting it, unless B Raman does have credible sources backing his assertions.

On the Asia Times piece, see above.


> Since you require more credible sources, how about the below UN Refugee Agency Report:
> 
> "*The appropriation of land in the Northern Areas by non-Kashmiri migrants from elsewhere in Pakistan, with the tacit encouragement of the federal government and army, has led to dwindling economic opportunities for the local population and an increase in sectarian tension between the majority Shia Muslims and a growing number of Sunnis*. Ethnic violence first erupted in 1988, with riots in Gilgit that killed at least 150 people, and it continues to be a concern. According to the International Crisis Group (ICG), between June 2004 and October 2005 as many as 100 people died in sectarian violence that broke out over a government decision to introduce a new educational curriculum. The situation improved somewhat in subsequent years after a group of religious leaders drew up a peace agreement and the authorities cracked down on extremist groups. Sporadic attacks continued to occur, however, and the ICG noted a recent escalation of religious rhetoric and a growing amount of sophisticated weaponry pouring into the area."


Valid source and reasonable concerns raised - however, that there has been some migration into Gilgit-Baltistan is not contested, what is contested is that the scale of such migration has been large enough to significantly affect the demographic balance. The UN may have stats indicating the scale of settlement, but they are not mentioned in this article. What is mentioned is that a few riots occurred and people died - that can happen with a few hundred immigrants in an area relatively heavily populated by locals.

So good information, but so far not enough to support your argument that the demographic balance has been altered to the point where G-B should be called 'Northern Punjab' or something.



> "As detailed by Human Rights Watch (HRW) in a 2006 report on the region, individuals and political parties who do not support Kashmir's accession to Pakistan are barred from participating in the political process, standing for election, taking a job with any government institution, or accessing educational institutions[/B][/B]. At least 60 proindependence candidates who belonged to the JKLF, the APNA, and smaller political parties were barred from participating in the July 2006 Azad Kashmir legislative assembly elections. Overall, HRW noted that the election process was flawed and "greeted with widespread charges of poll rigging by opposition political parties and independent analysts." However, unlike the 2001 elections, the polls featured few instances of physical violence and harassment  aside from threats  against candidates or their supporters, possibly because of the greater international presence in the wake of the earthquake. In general, antiaccession parties and individuals are subject to surveillance, harassment, and sometimes imprisonment by Pakistani intelligence and security services"
> 
> "The Pakistani government uses the constitution and other laws to curb freedom of speech on a variety of subjects, including the status of Kashmir and incidents of sectarian violence. In recent years, authorities have banned several local newspapers from publishing and have detained or otherwise harassed Kashmiri journalists. In March 2007, the government suspended its advertisements in publications by the Dawn English-language media group after it reported on a possible resurgence of official support for militants in Kashmir. In April 2007, Dawn reported that the editor and publisher of the banned monthly Kargil International magazine were indicted on sedition and defamation charges for publishing a proindependence article in 2004. In addition to pressure and threats from the authorities, journalists have been known to face harassment and attacks from nonstate actors, though no such incidents were reported in 2007. During the state of emergency imposed on the rest of Pakistan in November 2007, cable operators in Kashmir were instructed to suspend broadcasts of most national and international news channels."
> 
> "Pakistan is an Islamic republic, and there are numerous restrictions on religious freedom. Religious minorities also face unofficial economic and societal discrimination and are occasionally subject to violent attack. *Shia Muslims, who form the majority of the population in the Northern Areas, include a large number of Ismailis, a group that follows the Aga Khan. Sectarian strife between Shiites and the increasing number of Sunni Muslims (many of whom are migrants from elsewhere in Pakistan) first became a concern in 1988 and continues to be a problem*. In 2005, several waves of sectarian violence killed almost 100 people and led to a month-long curfew. Sporadic attacks continued to take place during 2006, including the destruction by fire of an Ismaili place of worship, but no violent incidents were reported in 2007."
> 
> *"The constitution of Azad Kashmir forbids individuals and political parties from taking part in activities that are prejudicial to the ideology of the state's accession to Pakistan."*
> 
> "According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP), Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) operates throughout Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas and engages in extensive surveillance (particularly of proindependence groups and the press), as well as arbitrary arrests and detentions. In some instances, those detained by the ISI, the police, or the security forces are tortured, and several cases of death in custody have been reported. Impunity for acts of torture and other mistreatment of civilians by the military and intelligence services remains the norm. The territory also continues to be governed by the colonial-era Frontier Crimes Regulations, under which residents are required to report to local police stations once a month."
> 
> UNHCR | Refworld | Freedom in the World 2008 - Kashmir [Pakistan]


This is unrelated to the topic but a couple of points there - the 'rigged elections' being referred to were allegations that applied to all of Pakistan, and have in fact applied to all of Pakistan in all but two or three elections in its history. 

On the electoral front, with this latest round of 'attempting democracy', the true test of whether election fraud is a result of some malicious intent towards Kashmiris/G-B's alone, or symptomatic of a malaise in the Pakistani ruling class in general, will be better analyzed when the 2013 elections are held. If they are widely regarded as 'free and fair', then there should be no reason for the AK &G-B elections to not be held in such a manner as well. 

The same pretty much applies across Pakistan in terms of the party in power using the security forces harras opponents, so again, not anything isolated to AK, but symptomatic of a larger problem in Pakistan of misuse of authority. Also, Pakistan's official position remains that endorsed by the UNSC resolutions on Kashmir, which call for the freedom of choice for Kashmiris to choose between India and Pakistan, and do not allow for a third option of independence.


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## Bhushan

India and Pakistan have fought two wars over Kashmir, which both claim in full but rule in part. Indian Kashmir has been hit by a 20-year separatist movement in which more than 47,000 people have been killed.

An attack on the Indian parliament in 2001, Pakistan-based so called Kashmiri terrorists, brought the countries to the brink of another full-blown conflict, at a time when both had acquired and were testing nuclear weapons.

Mumbai attacks in November that killed 179 people were also carried out by a so called Pakistani terrorist group fighting Indian rule in Kashmir.

But the question remains why Pakistan is so much interested in Kashmir??

a) Only because Kashmir is a Muslim majority state? 

b) Because of geographical location?

c) Because of natural resources?

May be yes. All major rivers flowing to Pakistan are coming from Kashmir and someday that water flow stops and Pakistan will turn into deserts. 
Look at the map.





Love to hear other views in civil manner.A healthy debate will be appreciated.
Thanks


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## Spring Onion

Stop this BS. Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris and thats why Pakistan wants what Kashmiris want.

And on the other hand attack on Indian parliament has already been exposed by your own people it wasnt any one from outside.

Afzal guru is still awaiting the decision of the court


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## Developereo

There are at least a dozen threads about Kashmir.
Almost every thread about _any_ issue seems to end up being about Kashmir.
Are you just bored, or merely want to enjoy another flame fest?

May I suggest using the Search function on this forum?


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## dabong1

Maybe we should ask why does inda wants to keep occupying kashmir.....geographical location,natural resources?

You seem to forget that if india tried to stop the water we would attack and its not that hard for us to carry out precision strikes to unblock the water.


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## dabong1

Lumberjack said:


> ^^^^^
> 
> Yes and because of this Pakistan is trying to annex Giglit and Baltistan into Pakistan....by a recently released so called package ...and also connecting to China using the same land ....Sure this is all in the name of free Kashmir...and all so called Azad Kashmir Citizens have voted for this Rail link to China.....stop fooling the world.



If pakistan was going to annex Giglit and Baltistan they would have made it into a province of pakistan......they have given more autonomy.something the people asked for......are you willing to follow the wishes of the people of kashmir and let them have a free choice about what they want.....UN vote!


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## Bhushan

Jana said:


> Stop this BS. Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris and thats why Pakistan wants what Kashmiris want.



If Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris then how come Pakistan comes in picture? Correct me if I am wrong but Kashmir is not a part of Pakistan and thats why it is called Azad Kashmir.That means the conflict is between Kashmiris and India.If so then why did Pakistan jumed in conflict? Please provide some solid reason that why Pakistan wants what Kashmiris want when Pakistan has nothing to do with Kashmir?

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## Bhushan

dabong1 said:


> Maybe we should ask why does inda wants to keep occupying kashmir.....geographical location,natural resources?



Because kashmir is a State Of India but Pakistan occupied Kashmir is an independent state which is not a part of Pakistan.


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## gubbi

Jana said:


> Stop this BS. Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris and thats why Pakistan wants what Kashmiris want.
> 
> And on the other hand attack on Indian parliament has already been exposed by your own people it wasnt any one from outside.
> 
> Afzal guru is still awaiting the decision of the court



Lol, nice statement Jana. Just like Afghanistan belongs to Afghans and not to Pakistani trained Taliban? And what aws that BS all about?
Like Bhushan says, if Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris why is Pakistan interfering in that area? Why did Pakistan give a large chunk of Kashmiri's Kashmir (Aksai Chin) to China? So much for helping Kashmiris. What a hypocritical statement, dear. Many Pakistani politicians openly state that Kashmir belongs to Pakistan and here come a few members who claim otherwise. Either you people know something the politicians in power dont or accepting truth as it is a trait fast depleting in such people.
As for the Indian Parliament attack, everyone knows what the truth is. Now if you want to dig your head in the sand, a la Ostrich, hoping that world will change their view, good luck! Ostriches end up exposing their vulnerable rear when they dig their heads in the sand!!


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## Bhushan

Developereo said:


> There are at least a dozen threads about Kashmir.*Almost every thread about any issue seems to end up being about Kashmir.*


Exactly thats the reason why i started this thread. *Unless the Kashmir issue is resolved there will never be peace in IndoPak relations.
*

Why IndoPak relations????

People should know why Kashmir is that much important for IndoPak relations??? 

Why????


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## IceCold

Another BS by another Indian. Look Bhushan first of all the title of the thread is wrong because Pakistan does not want kashmir in the first place so the question why does not arise for something we dont want. What we want however is the Kashmiries being given the right to choose about their future and not to be dictated to them and that stands for the whole of kashmir. India refuses to give this right of selfdetermination to the kashmiries and that is where the dispute begins. 
So the question you need to ask is not why Pakistan want Kashmir but instead why India does not give the right of selfdetermination something it promisied under the UN resolution to kashmiries.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

* Pakistan to take up Kashmir, Afghanistan issue before UN
​*
Friday, 11 Sep, 2009 | 09:22 PM PST |

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has decided to take up the issue of Kashmir and Afghanistan effectively at a session of the United Nations General Assembly this year.

Pakistan will inform the international community about reservations with regard to Indian's tactics not to resolve the Kashmir issue as well as the war against terrorism in Afghanistan.

The decision to this effect was taken during two separate meetings held at the foreign office, a private TV channel reported. Relevant authorities briefed the Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi about Kashmir and Afghanistan. 

During the meeting it was decided that Pakistan would ask the United Nations to ensure a resolution of the long-lingering issue of Kashmir on a priority basis for durable peace in the region. 

The international community would also be informed about the human rights violations committed by Indian forces in held Kashmir, sources said.

Besides officers of relevant authorities, officers of intelligence agencies including Director General Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shujja Pasha attended the meeting.

Pakistan will also take up the issue of Afghanistan during the session and would inform the largest world body about problems being faced by Pakistan due to action of Afghanistan based allied forces in neighboring country, channel reported.

Issues related to smuggling of weapons and drugs from Afghanistan to Pakistan would also be discussed in at the largest forum of world. -Online

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Pakistan to take up Kashmir, Afghanistan issue before UN

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

be ready for trouble.....................................


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## dabong1

We need the sell to the US that if they can get a deal on kashmir then we can fully concentrate of afghanistan....AFPAKKashmir should be the twist we put on it.
We also need to harden our stance with all the concession that we gave before being thrown out of the window and only the UN route will do for pakistan.
I think the media can play a part with pakistan pop group singing about kashmir and maybe a "khuda ki liya" like movie but about kashmir.
Using the same template as greenpeace-anti G8 protesters-celebrity charitys ect can be copied by kashmiri groups with pakistan backing to spread the message.
A kashmir channel satellite run by pakistan will also be a good step.


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## Righteous_Fire

atmi_chuza said:


> be ready for trouble.....................................



Those are, our genuine issues, we should have no fear in stating the facts. That is the basis of any Nation!


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

righteous_fire said:


> Those are, our genuine issues, we should have no fear in stating the facts. That is the basis of any Nation!



It does'nt fit Zardaris agenda...................
What we need is righteous leaders like Umar ( r.a) !!!

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

* Resolution of Kashmir issue key to regional stability: PM*​ Updated at: 1930 PST, Friday, September 11, 2009 
ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani on Friday said resolution of core issue of Kashmir was the key to good ties with India and for peace and stabilit of South Asia.

Talking to Prime Minister of Azad Jammu Kashmir (AJK) Sardar Muhammad Yaqub Khan here at the PM House, the Prime Minister said lasting peace in the region and the world can be ensured only if a solution to the long standing dispute of Jammu and Kashmir was found.

The Prime Minister accorded approval for fortification of Muzaffarabad Dam at a cost of Rs. 42 million. He also directed release of funds for construction of Wapda Model Town in Muzaffarabad.

Sardar Yaqub Khan thanked Prime Minister Gilani for approving the proposals for increasing induction in police force, increasing their capacity and establishment of Police Training College.

Sardar Yaqub briefed the Prime Minister about the progress on the Urban Development Programme in AJK, payment of remaining tranches of compensation to the completed houses in Rural Housing and construction on Muzaffarabad and Rawalakot Campuses of King Abdullah University of AJK and District Headquarters Complex Bagh and Rawalakot.

He informed the Prime Minister that Rs. 13 billion have been spent during the preceding financial year in AJK on Reconstruction Programme while expected expenditure on the under-execution and project under process of award was estimated at Rs. 27 billion.

He said slow progress in the education sector was affecting the overall progress and special strategy was being devised to expedite the pace or reconstruction work.

The meeting also discussed matters relating to the release of funds against AJK PSDP for 2009-10, construction of Lower Topa-Kohala Express Way, provision of natural gas to Muzaffarabad, Rawalakot and Mirpur, enhancement in allocation for the Rathoa-Harryam Bridge Mirpur project and waiving off of conditions imposed on Payara Kashmir Program.

AJK Prime Ministers participation in the meeting of OIC Contact Group on Kashmir on the sidelines of the forthcoming UN General Assembly session was also discussed.

Resolution of Kashmir issue key to regional stability: PM

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## TOPGUN

Awsome news these issues need to be addressed to the world based on facts that Pakistan has to face ! time for UN the world to act upon these issues good move PAK.

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## graphican

Hmm... now I see why two rockets were fired at BSF and what is the intention behind all this China-India and Pakistan-India recent clashes specially at Kashmir. I hate PPP government but I must admit they have played few cards well. Now we are shown too eager to talk to India and start negotiations and India is reluctant, asking for an international pressure on it. Likewise, when we are initiating disturbance on the Kashmir Border and as India responds, we build-up more international pressure on India not to do anything which distracts Military's focus from its western border along Afghanistan. This will also make the word see that if they need to win War in Afghanistan, they cannot do without Pakistan and if they need Pakistan, it must be free of worries of Conflicts with India. Good! I am happy for Pakistan doing whatever it is doing to highlight Kashmir and its importance in War Against Terrorism.


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## gubbi

How many times did Pakistan try to table Kashmir at the UN before? And how many times was it successful? What really makes you think that it will be any different this time around?

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## Nemesis

Makes no difference. India has far more influence than Pakistan and also the former UN secretary general Kofi Annan has already stated that the Kashmir issue should be resolved bi-laterally.


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## xebex

even the US dare to touch Kashmir Issue, UN is no different.

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## Omar1984

*Kashmir activist discovered dead​*
BBC News, Srinagar 







The rapes and murders have generated much anger 

A member of a top committee leading protests over the rapes and deaths of two women in Indian-administered Kashmir has been found dead.

The discovery has triggered a general strike in the town of Shopian. 

Police say Mohammad Hussain Zargar, 42, went missing after leaving home on Saturday morning. His body was found on Tuesday evening. 

Local residents allege that his death is the handiwork of those involved in the rapes and murders of the two women. 

Shopian - the area where the rapes and murders took place - has seen days of protests and strikes over the case. 

The bodies of the two women were discovered in a canal in the town on 30 May. 

The government initially maintained that they had died in an accident and that they had not been raped or killed. 

But the police later said they had been raped and murdered. 

The incident seriously challenged the credibility of Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, who ordered a judicial inquiry into the case following days of violent protests in the Kashmir Valley. 

Evidence destroyed

Mr Zargar was an active member of the Majlis-e-Mushawarat (consultative committee) which is spearheading the protest over the deaths. 






Police and protesters have repeatedly clashed over the deaths 

Local residents say his murder is a tactic to prevent the Majlis-e-Mushawarat from investigating the case by those responsible for committing the crime. 

Mr Zargar had reportedly promised to sell his property to fight for justice for the two women. 

His body was found barely a few hours after Chief Minister Abdullah told a public rally near Shopian town that he would not rest until those involved in the rapes and murders were brought to justice. 

Four police officers, including the then district police chief Javed Iqbal Matoo, were arrested in July on the orders of the high court after it emerged that they had destroyed evidence related to the case. 

Shopian observed a 47-day shutdown over the rapes and murders. 

The strike was only called off after an appeal by the state's chief justice, Barin Ghosh, who is heading a high court investigation into the crime.


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## graphican

gubbi said:


> How many times did Pakistan try to table Kashmir at the UN before? And how many times was it successful? What really makes you think that it will be any different this time around?



That's true, it didn't result but when there is no support from the UN, talks and negotiations, we have an excuse to let freedom-fighters make an over-time. Even not to show the world outside, we have a fresh story that says "Kashmir Issue could only be solved with War" and the nation prepares to think about other possible solutions. 

Fresh coal in the furnace, fresh air to make them red. By the way, according to Nemat Ullah Shah Wali, between now and Ghazwatulhind, one regional and un-decissive war is due over Kashmir Dispute. Lets see what happens in this Love Game.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Possibly an indication to India that Pakistan does not have infinite patience to play her games on Hafiz Saeed and revisionism of agreements (joint statement indicating restarting dialog) and refusal to resolve conflicts through dialog.

Musharraf moved away from the UNSC resolutions on Kashmir, and the Zardari led PPP seemed willing to follow that course as well, but Indian intransigence on a variety of issues has soured the public mood in Pakistan and the GoP is possibly running out of patience.

Now, raising the issue in the UNSC does not tangibly affect the status of Kashmir, but it does move the negotiating position back to square one, and it ensures that outside of India, J&K will continue to not be recognized as Indian territory.

At the very least, there is absolutely no harm to Pakistan in doing so.


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## dvk1982

graphican said:


> Hmm... now I see why two rockets were fired at BSF and what is the intention behind all this China-India and Pakistan-India recent clashes specially at Kashmir. I hate PPP government but I must admit they have played few cards well. Now we are shown too eager to talk to India and start negotiations and India is reluctant, asking for an international pressure on it. Likewise, when we are initiating disturbance on the Kashmir Border and as India responds, we build-up more international pressure on India not to do anything which distracts Military's focus from its western border along Afghanistan. This will also make the word see that if they need to win War in Afghanistan, they cannot do without Pakistan and if they need Pakistan, it must be free of worries of Conflicts with India. Good! I am happy for Pakistan doing whatever it is doing to highlight Kashmir and its importance in War Against Terrorism.



gud logic and planning...
we will sit ideal... run over us


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## Developereo

I doubt this will have any meaningful results.

The way to liberate Kashmir is not through the UN or freedom fighters. _It hasn't worked for 60 years._ The definition of stupidity is to keep doing the same thing over and over and expect different results. We have sacrificed 70,000 shaheed to this cause without any results. (I am not saying our freedom fighters are stupid, but the policy is stupid.)

The solution, I believe, lies in putting a united Islamic pressure on India. *Through a concerted media campaign throughout the Muslim world, we need to highlight the suffering of Kashmiri Muslims and India's cozy relationship with Israel.* We need to turn this from a India/Pakistan issue to a India/Muslims issue.

India cannot afford to jeapordize its economic and diplomatic relations with Islamic countries, especailly the Middle East. The only way it will resolve Kashmir is when there is noticeable pressure from those countries.


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## TOPGUN

gubbi said:


> How many times did Pakistan try to table Kashmir at the UN before? And how many times was it successful? What really makes you think that it will be any different this time around?



Just like how many times your country cries to the world when something good happens for Pakistan or over some arms deal ! rem that one? i didn't think so just passed your head eh play fair or don't play at all its time we give u some of your own medcine back never hurts to talk out loud a fav indian practice lol so cheer up and enjoy the show!


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## graphican

dvk1982 said:


> gud logic and planning...
> we will sit ideal... run over us



We will.. and Inshallah We Will. We are not in denial of Ghazwatulhind. You better keep your fingers crossed.


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## gubbi

graphican said:


> We will.. and Inshallah We Will. We are not in denial of *Ghazwatulhind*. You better keep your fingers crossed.



Oh that 4 - India-Pak war theory, right? Didnt you already lose the fourth war? Or was it fifth? '71 was the third, '84 Siachen (nobody seems to remember that one) was the fourth and more recently Kargil in '99. Ouch!

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## gubbi

Developereo said:


> I doubt this will have any meaningful results.
> The way to liberate Kashmir is not through the UN or freedom fighters. _It hasn't worked for 60 years._ The definition of stupidity is to keep doing the same thing over and over and expect different results.


Very sensible, pragmatic quote.



> The solution, I believe, lies in putting a united Islamic pressure on India. *Through a concerted media campaign throughout the Muslim world, we need to highlight the suffering of Kashmiri Muslims and India's cozy relationship with Israel.* We need to turn this from a India/Pakistan issue to a India/Muslims issue.


Though a sensible option, there are many irreparable loopholes in this theory. India hosts the second largest Muslim population in the world, Muslims whose patriotism matches, that of their Hindu compatriots. For them India comes first rather than their religion, or let me rephrase that one - India is their first religion, then Islam! I know, I've seen it. They too passionately believe that Kashmir is an integral part of India are those in the services are willing to sacrifice their lives for that belief. We already have many such examples of bravery and supreme sacrifice. Indian Muslim expatriate community in the Arab lands is quite influential and have helped formulating India's attitude towards the gulf region and in guiding Arab outlook towards India. Our relation is business based and the Arabs are quite smart to understand what they stand to loose.
This might come as a surprise that India did not have formal diplomatic ties with Israel. It was only after the Camp David accords between Arafat and Rabin (that historic ill-fated handshake), when the Palestinians broke ice with the Israelis that India started covert diplomatic ties with Israel. Its been reported that Arafat finally had no problem with India developing relations with Israel when PLO had started engaging in negotiations with the Israelis.
Now which country in the Muslim dominated Middle East has sour relations with India?
Considering all these *facts* how can one ever turn this Kashmir conflict into India-Muslim conflict? Sorry to say, but my friend, its a very illogical, baseless idea.


> India cannot afford to jeapordize its economic and diplomatic relations with Islamic countries, especailly the Middle East. The only way it will resolve Kashmir is when there is noticeable pressure from those countries.


The economic numbers speak for themselves. Do you really think that even if all the Muslim countries put diplomatic pressure, India will cave in? With a huge Indian population at hand? Nah, man!

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## IndianSuperpower

Developereo said:


> I doubt this will have any meaningful results.
> 
> The way to liberate Kashmir is not through the UN or freedom fighters. _It hasn't worked for 60 years._ The definition of stupidity is to keep doing the same thing over and over and expect different results. We have sacrificed 70,000 shaheed to this cause without any results. (I am not saying our freedom fighters are stupid, but the policy is stupid.)
> 
> The solution, I believe, lies in putting a united Islamic pressure on India. *Through a concerted media campaign throughout the Muslim world, we need to highlight the suffering of Kashmiri Muslims and India's cozy relationship with Israel.* We need to turn this from a India/Pakistan issue to a India/Muslims issue.
> 
> India cannot afford to jeapordize its economic and diplomatic relations with Islamic countries, especailly the Middle East. The only way it will resolve Kashmir is when there is noticeable pressure from those countries.



To play the India/Muslim card India should not have Muslims at all. That card can be neutralized by Indian Muslims living in India. It can be countered with the Indian Muslims who have been successful within India and so the Kashmiri people can also live in the same manner. So isolating India in the Muslim world is not possible because of India being a secular society. There had been mistakes as like of Godhra but name a society which has not made mistakes. 

Regarding Muslim majority we have Tamil majority, Telgu majority and other states also which have majority of a ethnic groups which have existed within India in the past 62 years. This nullifies the theory of the only Muslim state within India as we have many "....." states within India who co-existed for a common cause.


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## IndianSuperpower

gubbi said:


> Very sensible, pragmatic quote.
> 
> 
> Though a sensible option, there are many irreparable loopholes in this theory. India hosts the second largest Muslim population in the world, Muslims whose patriotism matches, that of their Hindu compatriots. For them India comes first rather than their religion, or let me rephrase that one - India is their first religion, then Islam! I know, I've seen it. They too passionately believe that Kashmir is an integral part of India are those in the services are willing to sacrifice their lives for that belief. We already have many such examples of bravery and supreme sacrifice. Indian Muslim expatriate community in the Arab lands is quite influential and have helped formulating India's attitude towards the gulf region and in guiding Arab outlook towards India. Our relation is business based and the Arabs are quite smart to understand what they stand to loose.
> This might come as a surprise that India did not have formal diplomatic ties with Israel. It was only after the Camp David accords between Arafat and Rabin (that historic ill-fated handshake), when the Palestinians broke ice with the Israelis that India started covert diplomatic ties with Israel. Its been reported that Arafat finally had no problem with India developing relations with Israel when PLO had started engaging in negotiations with the Israelis.
> Now which country in the Muslim dominated Middle East has sour relations with India?
> Considering all these *facts* how can one ever turn this Kashmir conflict into India-Muslim conflict? Sorry to say, but my friend, its a very illogical, baseless idea.
> 
> The economic numbers speak for themselves. Do you really think that even if all the Muslim countries put diplomatic pressure, India will cave in? With a huge Indian population at hand? Nah, man!



To ellaborate further Indian muslims would be standing in the Indian side against a only densely populated Muslim state being transferred to another country, and definitely middle east cannot negate the second highest population of Muslims on the planet neither they would be ready to piss of Indian trade and Indian investments. The equations are equal on both sides. At max what they can do is to remain neutral.


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## IndianSuperpower

graphican said:


> We will.. and Inshallah We Will. We are not in denial of *Ghazwatulhind*. You better keep your fingers crossed.



Why dont you guys include Ghazwatulhind in your state policy if you are so obessed about it and are so damn confident that yes its a reality like we had 2000 world end, 2012 theories and others. It would be great to say to the international community that we are going to attack India because we are prophecy of India being destroyed. Stop making joke of yourself. Conspiracy theorist also lay claim on Mecca and Medina being a Hindu temple.........  

Stop dreaming and wake up. Go climb the tree for the apples or die starving waiting for some so called event of apples falling from the tree..


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## UnitedPak

*Muslim card is irrelevant. Its long been established that Kashmiris do not want India, and never have.*


















> They too passionately believe that Kashmir is an integral part of India are those in the services are willing to sacrifice their lives for that belief



Those in the services know first-hand how "Indian" Kashmiris actually feel. This is how they "integrate" I guess.

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## Developereo

gubbi said:


> Do you really think that even if all the Muslim countries put diplomatic pressure, India will cave in? With a huge Indian population at hand? Nah, man!





IndianSuperpower said:


> To play the India/Muslim card India should not have Muslims at all.



After thinking about it I agree that Pakistan should not play this card.
Not because it wouldn't work. I think it would work and achieve Kashmir's liberation, but the cost would be too high for Indian Muslims.

First, in an India v/s Muslims confrontation, the Indian Muslims would be put in a very difficult position -- not least because anti-Muslim elements within India would exploit the situation.

And also, no matter which way the conflict was resolved, _especially if Kashmir became independent as a result of Muslim pressure_, the Indian Muslims would forever be punished for it by the rest of India.

But maybe it can be done in a roundabout way. Saudi Arabia nudging Uncle, Pakistan nudging the Panda, OPEC nudging the Bear, and everybody breathing down India's neck. I admit it's a long shot, but we may have to find a non-military, non-UN solution.


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## IndianSuperpower

UnitedPak said:


> *Muslim card is irrelevant. Its long been established that Kashmiris do not want India, and never have
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those in the services know first-hand how "Indian" Kashmiris actually feel. This is how they "integrate" I guess.*


*

To the same extent we can post the pictures where the Kashmiris have wanted India........... So such pictures would be neutralized. Just need to google a little. So these claims cannot be used as a bargaining point along with Indian influential stand will force them to be neutral. There are always 2 sides of a coin. *


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## graphican

gubbi said:


> Oh that 4 - India-Pak war theory, right? Didnt you already lose the fourth war? Or was it fifth? '71 was the third, '84 Siachen (nobody seems to remember that one) was the fourth and more recently Kargil in '99. Ouch!



If you wana count, there has been 2 so far. 65 and 71. Even Kargil and 84 are conflicts not the full-scale wars. War doesn't mean a disturbed post or sector. So there has been two not 4.


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## graphican

IndianSuperpower said:


> Why dont you guys include Ghazwatulhind in your state policy if you are so obessed about it and are so damn confident that yes its a reality like we had 2000 world end, 2012 theories and others. It would be great to say to the international community that we are going to attack India because we are prophecy of India being destroyed. Stop making joke of yourself. Conspiracy theorist also lay claim on Mecca and Medina being a Hindu temple.........
> 
> Stop dreaming and wake up. Go climb the tree for the apples or die starving waiting for some so called event of apples falling from the tree..



We are getting off the topic but let me mention that Ghawatulhind is not word of some saint or suffi, that's told to Muslim Ummah by Prophet Muhammad PBUH. So theories of 2000 or 2012 are not comparable to sayings of Prophet Muhammad PBUH. 

You would be a believer if you try to find what has been told by Prophet Muhammad PBUH and how many of his predictions has come true by the time we are living in 2009. So even if you are a non-believer, you can use scientific methods to evaluate how accurate Islam has been.. and it is not just the prediction of Ghawaztulhind, it is chain of prediction about arrival of Antichrist (Dajal), Immam Mehdi and Prophet Isa Iban-e-Maryam (Jesus) PBUH. 

Whether state has made this a polcity of not, Muslims all over the word believe that and when it will be the time, they will participate from 4 corners of the world. Its not going to be a usual war like 65 or 71, it will be the war in Which Mujahid from Iran, Afghanistan, Turky, Paksitan and Dakan (India) will take part. No wonder we see SIMI believing and working actively on it. We are getting close to Iran and Turky every passing day and it is needless to say how Afghan Jihadi take India.

Just to literate you, Nemat-Ullah-Shah Wali has described this Ghazwa more. According to him, Pakistan will loose 2/3rd of its territory to India and Indians forces will reach upto river of Attak. But the River of Attack will turn red 3 times with the blood of Indian solders and they will never be able to surpass it. Then Muslim Forces will push them back and Re-capture Lahore, Kashmir and Push Indian forces so deep that they will conquer area between Ganga and Jamna. Muslim Forces will conquer Dehli and Dehli will be Pak. 

If you want to check credibility of Nemat-Ullah Shah Wali, you are welcome to have a look at his predictions and how many of them has been turned true already. Visit YouTube.com and type "Naimatullah Shah Wali" there. 

Its not Nematullah Shah Wali that is our source of inspiration for Ghawaztulhind, it has been told by the Last Prophet of Allah and his sayings are as sacred to us as the Book of Allah.


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## IndianSuperpower

graphican said:


> We are getting off the topic but let me mention that Ghawatulhind is not word of some saint or suffi, that's told to Muslim Ummah by Prophet Muhammad PBUH. So theories of 2000 or 2012 are not comparable to sayings of Prophet Muhammad PBUH.
> 
> You would be a believer if you try to find what has been told by Prophet Muhammad PBUH and how many of his predictions has come true by the time we are living in 2009. So even if you are a non-believer, you can use scientific methods to evaluate how accurate Islam has been.. and it is not just the prediction of Ghawaztulhind, it is chain of prediction about arrival of Antichrist (Dajal), Immam Mehdi and Prophet Isa Iban-e-Maryam (Jesus) PBUH.
> 
> Whether state has made this a polcity of not, Muslims all over the word believe that and when it will be the time, they will participate from 4 corners of the world. Its not going to be a usual war like 65 or 71, it will be the war in Which Mujahid from Iran, Afghanistan, Turky, Paksitan and Dakan (India) will take part. No wonder we see SEMI actively believing and working actively on it. We are getting to Iran and Turky every passing day you would know how Afghan Jihadis take India.
> 
> Just to literate you, Nemat-Ullah-Shah Wali has described this Ghazwa more. According to him, Pakistan will loose 2/3rd of its territory to India and Indians forces will reach upto river of Attak. But the River of Attack will turn red 3 times with the blood of Indian solders and they will never be able to surpass it. Then Muslim Forces will push them back and Re-capture Lahore, Kashmir and Push Indian forces so deep that they will conquer area between Ganga and Jamna. Muslim Forces will conquer Dehli and Dehli will be Pak.
> 
> If you want to check credibility of Nemat-Ullah Shah Wali, you are welcome to have a look at his predictions and how many of them has been turned true already. Visit YouTube.com and type "Naimatullah Shah Wali" there.
> 
> Its not Nematullah Shah Wali that is our source of inspiration for Ghawaztulhind, it has been told by the Last Prophet of Allah and his sayings are as sacred to us as the Book of Allah.



Good for you. Keep believing. 
It is good for us that you believe in this. 

We also have few couple of more than predictions like as that of Kalki Avtaar but we keep our state affairs away from it.


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## dabong1

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The meeting also discussed matters relating to the release of funds against AJK PSDP for 2009-10, construction of Lower Topa-Kohala Express Way, *provision of natural gas to Muzaffarabad, Rawalakot and Mirpur,* enhancement in allocation for the Rathoa-Harryam Bridge Mirpur project and waiving off of conditions imposed on Payara Kashmir Program.



I cant wait for the gas.......electrics just not the same.


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## Rajkumar

graphican said:


> We are getting off the topic but let me mention that Ghawatulhind is not word of some saint or suffi, that's told to Muslim Ummah by Prophet Muhammad PBUH. So theories of 2000 or 2012 are not comparable to sayings of Prophet Muhammad PBUH.
> 
> You would be a believer if you try to find what has been told by Prophet Muhammad PBUH and how many of his predictions has come true by the time we are living in 2009. So even if you are a non-believer, you can use scientific methods to evaluate how accurate Islam has been.. and it is not just the prediction of Ghawaztulhind, it is chain of prediction about arrival of Antichrist (Dajal), Immam Mehdi and Prophet Isa Iban-e-Maryam (Jesus) PBUH.
> 
> Whether state has made this a polcity of not, Muslims all over the word believe that and when it will be the time, they will participate from 4 corners of the world. Its not going to be a usual war like 65 or 71, it will be the war in Which Mujahid from Iran, Afghanistan, Turky, Paksitan and Dakan (India) will take part. No wonder we see SIMI believing and working actively on it. We are getting close to Iran and Turky every passing day and it is needless to say how Afghan Jihadi take India.
> 
> Just to literate you, Nemat-Ullah-Shah Wali has described this Ghazwa more. According to him, Pakistan will loose 2/3rd of its territory to India and Indians forces will reach upto river of Attak. But the River of Attack will turn red 3 times with the blood of Indian solders and they will never be able to surpass it. Then Muslim Forces will push them back and Re-capture Lahore, Kashmir and Push Indian forces so deep that they will conquer area between Ganga and Jamna. Muslim Forces will conquer Dehli and Dehli will be Pak.
> 
> If you want to check credibility of Nemat-Ullah Shah Wali, you are welcome to have a look at his predictions and how many of them has been turned true already. Visit YouTube.com and type "Naimatullah Shah Wali" there.
> 
> Its not Nematullah Shah Wali that is our source of inspiration for Ghawaztulhind, it has been told by the Last Prophet of Allah and his sayings are as sacred to us as the Book of Allah.



i hope PA dont believe in this.
its good to have faith and use it for greater good but its good to have brain(not gobar) also and use it for own good


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## dabong1

IndianSuperpower said:


> Conspiracy theorist also lay claim on Mecca and Medina being a Hindu temple.........



People did worship idols in mecca.


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## dvk1982

graphican said:


> We will.. and Inshallah We Will. We are not in denial of Ghazwatulhind. You better keep your fingers crossed.



yeah yeah .. have those prophecies puck ur as*up.... and pray which is the only thing u can do...... warmonger...


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## graphican

IndianSuperpower said:


> Good for you. Keep believing.
> It is good for us that you believe in this.
> 
> *We also have few couple of more than predictions like as that of Kalki Avtaar* but we keep our state affairs away from it.



My friend spend few hours in your Religious Library (Hindu Religious Libarary) and you would what you are expecting to arrive has already arrived. No wonder you will find features of Kalki Autar and Prophet Muhammad PBUH the exact and same. 

* Reference URL:* Kalki Autar and Muhammad Sahab (S.)
And
Amininbox.googlepages.com

There are complete articles over scribed.com that has discussed Kalki Autar and Prophet Muhammad in Considerable detail. But for your ease, I am putting few of them over here. 

----------------

It is mentioned inBhagwat Purana Khand 1 Adhyay 3 Shloka 25:
Then in the twilight of the Kali age, when kings will be as good as robbers, this protector of the world will be born of Vishnuyasa under the name Kalki. The description of the Kalki Avatar i.e. the final Avatar is given in the verses Kalki Purana chapter 2 verses 4, 5, 7, 11 & 15.

1. Mothers name Sumati i.e. Aaminah
The name of his mother will be Sumati (K.P.2: 4 & 11), which means gentle and thoughtful, Prophet Muhammads mothers name was Aaminah, which means peaceful and gentle.

2. Fathers name Vishnuyash i.e. Abdullah.
His fathers name will be Vishnuyash which means worshipper of Vishnu i.e. worshipper of God. Muhammads fathers name was Abdullah which means obedient worshipper of Allah i.e. God.

3. Born in Sambhala i.e. Makkah
He will be born in a village called Sambhala which means house of peace and security. Makkah is known as Darul Aman, which means house of peace and security.

4. Born in house of Chief Priest.
He will be born in the house of chief of the village Sambhala. Muhammad (pbuh) was born in the house of the chief of the Kaaba.

"So Kalki Avtar will take birth in 'Shambal Gram' in the house of brahmn Mahnt (religious leader) named Wishnu Wesh.
(Kalki Puran, Adhiyai 2, Ashlok 4),
(Bhagwat Puran, Skand 12, Adhyai 2, Ashlok 18)

BRAHMIN MAHANT mean spiritual and highly respected preist and Makkahs highly respected preist was Hasham, then Hashams son Abdul Mutlib became the leading preist of Makkah, who was the grand father of prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Muhammad was born in home of Abdul Mutlib. In short, Muhammad was born in the respectable tribe of Quraish who enjoyed great respect and high place in Makkah.


5. Born on the 12th day of Madhav i.e. Rabi-ul-Awwal.
It is prophesied that Kalki Avtar will be born on the 12th day of the bright (first) half of the month of Madhav. It is a historical fact Muhammad (pbuh) was born on the 12th day of the bright half of the month of Rabi-ul-Awwal.

6. He will be the Antim or final Avatar
He has been described as the Antim i.e. the last and final of all the Avatars. The Quran also mentions:

DATE OF BIRTH OF KALKI AVTAR

"Kalki will born on 12th of month of Besakh (in 7th century)" (Kalki Puran, Adhiyai 2, Ashlok 15)

Besakh is famous month of Indian calendar. As per that calendar the date of birth of Mohammad (peace be upon him) is 12 Besakh 628 Bakrami. And that day as per Arabic calendar, Month Rabi I, year AlFeel and 2nd Monday. And this day was very pious near Hindus.
Date of birth of the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) is exactly same in all history books.
THE PERIOD OF KALKI AVTAR

Kalki Avtar would ride horse, camel and keep the sword to kill the devil and enemies of religion.

It means that Kalki Avtar will be born in the time before present age when horse and camel were used for riding and sword was being used for fight. And in this period and in the coming future people will use cars, train & planes for riding and guns, missiles for fighting. We should not forget that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) used both horses & camels, and he fought with sword during battles against those who tried to eliminate the Muslims.


"Father of Kalki Avtar will die before his birth and his mother will die after some time of his birth."
(Kalki Puran & Bhagut Puran, Skand 12)
Father of the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) died 6 month before his birth and mother died 6 years after his birth.

DEATH OF KALKI AVTARS PARENTS

* Kalki Avtars Father will die before his birth and his Mother will die after few years of his birth. (Kalki Puran, Bhaghwat Puran Khand 12)
These two indications clearly fit on Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). His Father died earlier to his birth and his Mother died when Muhammad was only six year old. For reference please study the life history of prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

KALKI AVTAR WILL GET WISDOM ON A MOUNTAIN

According to Kalki Puran, the Kalki Avtar will receive wisdom or knowledge on a mountains cave from PERSHURAM (angel).

It is well known that Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) was often going to the cave Hira near Makkah (still present) and there one night Angel Gabriel brought the message of God, "Read with the name of God." And this revelation process continued all his life. And Pershoram is name of an angel with Hindu religion who brings destruction for disbelievers. And one name for Gabriel is Ruh Al Quddus (Holy Spirit), which is synonym of Pershoram in Sanskrit.

For reference Holy Quran (96:1) Read (Prophet Muhammad) with the name of Allah and he replied  I am not learned the same indication was given in the Christians scripture (Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12)  and the book delivered to him that is not learned, saying  Read this, I pray thee: and he said, I am not learned, this is another prove of his prophecy. So prophet Muhammad received his first revelation in the cave of mountain HIRA. And this prediction also fits on him.

and list of similarities goes on and on. If you are honest in the quest of finding Kalki Autar, do spend few hours searching about him in your own Relegious Books and then compare them with the life of Prophet Muhammad PBUH. If you have pure heart, Brahma (Rehman) will show you the light.


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## graphican

Rajkumar said:


> i hope PA dont believe in this.
> its good to have faith and use it for greater good but its good to have brain(not gobar) also and use it for own good



Guess what, PA is 99% Muslim!

I understand your reason to deny that and you are welcome to do so. But denial does not change the fate. Now I don't know even if you have faith in fate. 

Stay cool buddy, it is not meant for you if you don't subscribe to Islam.. but Muslims all over the world need to be aware of saying of Prophet Muhammad PBUH including the one you hate to hear.

Just to make you bit curious, Holy Prophet PBUH had predicted that Muslims will conquer Iran (it has happened), Constantinople (it has happened) and Hind (....).


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## Muradk

Waist to time taking this issue infront of the UN. Done it been there but nothing WHY because we Pakistani are still in denial that Kashmir wants to be a part of Pakistan, They don't want to join us they want a separate state all together. And buy the time this sinks into our thick skulls we would have worsen our relations with India.

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## UnitedPak

Muradk said:


> Waist to time taking this issue infront of the UN. Done it been there but nothing WHY because we Pakistani are still in denial that Kashmir wants to be a part of Pakistan, They don't want to join us they want a separate state all together. And buy the time this sinks into our thick skulls we would have worsen our relations with India.



Bro, this is not about my wish to expand Pak borders. A lot of us have links to Kashmir and my heart *bleeds* whenever I see headlines of Kashmiris being killed, the women raped, the people surrounded by a million troops 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, mass graves uncovered every couple of months. 

Maybe I would feel slightly damn better if a single responsible Indian spoke against the savagery that takes place there. But it seems to be a crime in India to address Kashmiri grievances. People who do address crimes against Kashmiris (who mostly happen to be Kashmmiri themselves) end up dead, imprisoned or exiled.

Kashmir is a concentration camp in every sense of the word. A concentration camp proudly supported by the people of India in a bid to restore some imaginary Akhand Bharat.
This is state sponsored terrorism at its finest. Indians have made it perfectly clear that they dont intend to change anything.

I dont care if Kashmir becomes independent or even joins China. As long as their occupation ends.

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## Omar1984

Muradk said:


> Waist to time taking this issue infront of the UN. Done it been there but nothing WHY because we Pakistani are still in denial that Kashmir wants to be a part of Pakistan, They don't want to join us they want a separate state all together. And buy the time this sinks into our thick skulls we would have worsen our relations with India.



An independent Kashmir is much better than a Bharat Occupied Kashmir.

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## MilesTogo

I say let us free all Indian Muslims at once and be done with it. Let them make one more Pakistan and live in peace as current Pakistan is doing.

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## Spitfighter

Kashmir is a bilateral issue and India will not tolerate any foreign interference/meddling in Kashmir. 

India has restated its position several times. Pakistan has to clamp down on terrorism, then and only then is reconciliation possible.

Pakistan has to learn to look beyond Kashmir and focus on eliminating 'non state actors'. Try as they might, India will simply not let Pakistan link its responsibilities in the WoT to Kashmir. 

In any case, Pakistan is in no position to pressure India, India will make moves when it deems them to be appropriate. Pakistan is caught between a rock and a hard place and will have to readdress it's strategic outlook.


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## Muradk

You phrased it wrong.
*you said* 
Pakistan has to learn to look beyond Kashmir and focus on eliminating '*non state actors*'. Try as they might, India will simply not let Pakistan link its responsibilities in the WoT to Kashmir. 
*
But you should have phrased it like this *
Pakistan has to learn to look beyond Kashmir and focus on eliminating *RAW*. Try as they might, India will simply not let Pakistan link its responsibilities in the WoT to Kashmir.


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## FireFighter

Omar1984 said:


> An independent Kashmir is much better than a Bharat Occupied Kashmir.



An independent Kashmir would be much more like independent Bangladesh run by Indian stooges. India has worked hard in preparing the stooges but their hardwork has gone down the drain due to insurmountable sacrifices of the Kashmiris. 

I dont agree with the concept of a "free independent Kashmir". That will never happen so long as Congress or BJP are in power in India that thrive on making profits out of dividing people. Given BJP/Congress's history of making mischief with neighbouring countries for their religious/economic benefit, you think they'd let an independent Kashmir run on its on? 

Either Kashmir would be under the shadow of India, or an independent state under the protection of Pakistan, it cannot be a sovereign state..

Unless you equip the Kashmiris with Nukes, ghauris and F16s ...



MilesTogo said:


> I say let us free all Indian Muslims at once and be done with it. Let them make one more Pakistan and live in peace as current Pakistan is doing.



You don't even have to free Muslims or any religious class that feels insecure and unprotected under the BJP/Congress rule. 

It's not even about Muslim for that matter. It's all about Social Justice for the minorities. Try adding that in your dictionary before we continue ...

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## FireFighter

Muradk said:


> Waist to time taking this issue infront of the UN. Done it been there but nothing WHY because we Pakistani are still in denial that Kashmir wants to be a part of Pakistan, They don't want to join us they want a separate state all together. And buy the time this sinks into our thick skulls we would have worsen our relations with India.



Speaking of social justice and talking about someone's rights is never a waste of time. It takes guts and lots of courage to speak on behalf the oppressed, especially at the international level. And I believe Musharraf let us down in that regard after the Kargil war. 

Pakistan should back the Kashmir issue even if they dont want to join us. We should back them given that no other country backs them. 

They're in far worse conditions than the Palestinians were in Gaza.


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

both countries has to accept the controlled territories


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## Omar1984

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> both countries has to accept the controlled territories



and continue to see this?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/33872-kashmir-activist-discovered-dead.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/32137-more-unmarked-graves-discovered-held-kashmir.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...d-war-indian-army-accused-torture-terror.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/31790-2-killings-stoke-kashmiri-rage-indian-force.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...ainst-land-occupation-troops-rock-valley.html


There will never be peace in South Asia until Kashmir dispute is resolved.


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## Developereo

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> both countries has to accept the controlled territories



No, my Indian-pretending-to-be-French friend, the people of Kashmir need to decide their own future.

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## SalmanNadeem

Surprising how your hearts bleed more for citizens of a foreign country than your own long-suffering Balochis at the hands of your own armed forces and intelligence agencies. 

The decades of propaganda drilled into your heads seems to have worked.


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## EjazR

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

*Pakistan crisis leaves Kashmir peace process in limbo*

* Envoys had reached secret 5-point agreement over Kashmir settlement * Indian newspaper says Musharrafs interest in reaching settlement overridden by troubles of saving own job

SRINAGAR: Pakistans political crisis has left efforts to find a solution to the decades-old dispute over Kashmir with archrival India in limbo, analysts and politicians say.

Peace talks which started in 2004 are officially continuing but with turmoil in Islamabad all hopes of a short-term breakthrough have been abandoned.

The tumult in Pakistan is a temporary setback to the peace process, said Noor Ahmed Baba, head of the political science department at Kashmir University in Srinagar.

The peace process has been disrupted by the developments but once things stabilise there, both countries will resume the process, Baba said, calling the drive irreversible.

However, Pakistans political churning has come at an unfortunate moment for talks between the neighbours, South Asia expert Prem Shankar Jha said.

5-point agreement, kept secret: Special envoys appointed by both sides for back-channel talks had arrived at a five-point agreement outlining the contours of a settlement over Kashmir, Jha wrote in Indian news magazine Outlook.

The agreement contained a framework for joint management of common issues like water, power, communications and defence, with the de facto Line of Control border dividing Kashmir into Indian- and Pakistani-administered regions progressively softened, he said.

Though the formula was ready to be unveiled in March-April, both governments decided to keep the agreement secret, preferring to wait for a more propitious moment that never came, Jha said. Today, Kashmir is the last and most expendable thing on Pakistani leaders minds.

An Indian official confirmed that the five-point formula had been agreed, and that it was kept away from the public eye because of reservations expressed by some sections within the Indian government.

New Delhi has kept a close eye on events in Pakistan since November 3, but has refrained from openly backing any particular political leadership. Opinion in Muslim-majority Indian Kashmir, however, is firmly behind Musharraf. Musharrafs presence helped improve relations between India and Pakistan, said ex-Kashmir chief minister Mufti Mohammed Sayeed.

Musharraf is credited with supporting a slew of measures to stabilise the fragile ties between India and Pakistan, at loggerheads since 1947.

However, Pakistans troubles have meant that Musharraf has had no time to pay attention to the peace process. Events in Pakistan have set back the peace process and put Kashmir on the backburner, said Greater Kashmir newspaper editorial columnist Mohammed Ashraf. Until theres some normalcy in Pakistan, parleys must wait. Musharraf seemed very sincere in ending this mad conflict but now his very survival is in question, he added. Violence has eased since India and Pakistan began the peace talks, but more than 42,000 people have been killed in the insurgency, officials say. Human rights groups estimate the deaths at 60,000 with 10,000 missing.

Musharrafs interest in talks overridden: Musharraf used to take a personal interest in the talks but now he himself is in trouble trying to save his own job, said Tahir Mohiudin, editor of Kashmir-based Urdu weekly Chattan.

Moderate Kashmiri separatist leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq said only a stable Pakistan can have a serious dialogue with India over Kashmir. Presently it seems the dialogue process is on hold.


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## EjazR

DAWN.COM | World | The four-point formula

The spokesman of the United Jihad Council (UJC) Syed Sadaqat Hussein&#8217;s belated attack on June 28 on the four-point formula on Kashmir, reeks of factual error and unrealism. Gen Pervez Musharraf neither succumbed to the US and Indian pressure nor did he make &#8216;a U-turn on Pakistan&#8217;s stated policy on Kashmir&#8217; when he propounded the formula.

Much worse, partition pure and simple, was offered by Prime Minister Firoz Khan Noon to Henry Cabot Lodge, US envoy to the UN, in Karachi on Feb 10, 1958. The Z.A. Bhutto&#8211;Swaran Singh talks (1962-63) centred on partition lines. President Ayub Khan abandoned plebiscite in 1962. Not one country in the world talks of the UN resolutions or advocates plebiscite today.

It is equally wrong to say that &#8216;none of the Kashmiri leaders ever endorsed&#8217; the formula and that even the Government of India did not take it seriously. None other than the UJC&#8217;s chairman, Syed Salahuddin, endorsed it on Feb 27, 2007 albeit as a &#8216;first step&#8217;, in a talk with the media at Muzaffarabad. Syed Sadaqat Hussein should not forget that. He himself had faxed the remarks to the media in Srinagar.

Close on the heels, Mirwaiz Maulvi Umar Farooq said on March 20, 2007, &#8216;The Hurriyat Conference will soon strengthen its public contact programme to make people aware of the four-point formula of President Musharraf and take them into confidence on the on-going peace process.&#8217;

By then the president&#8217;s popularity in Pakistan had plummeted low. However, Indians noted with chagrin that the sentiment in the Valley, across the board, was strongly in his favour. Why? Because he had brought the Kashmir dispute to the very outskirts of a solution. Both sentiments deserve understanding and respect.

On May 2 last, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh revealed &#8216;Gen Musharraf and I had nearly reached an agreement, a non-territorial solution to all problems but then Gen Musharraf got into many difficulties with the chief justice and other forces and therefore the whole process came to a halt&#8217;. The general has uttered the same regret.

It would be reckless to drown the baby of an achievement in the bath water of partisanship or discard it because Musharraf had acted arbitrarily at home. His recent remarks on the Hurriyat&#8217;s failure to give any concrete proposal on a solution, which the UJC spokesman criticised, are perfectly valid. Syed Ali Shah Geelani&#8217;s voice is stuck in the groove of an old gramophone record &#8212; he has no use for CDs or DVDs &#8212; while the Mirwaiz keeps promising to reveal a road map but never delivers. Visiting journalists from Pakistan were astonished to find an absence of intellectual creativity on the subject in the one place from which it could be expected, the once vibrant Kashmir University. True, its students and faculty have suffered a lot and the university has been undermined by the state. But slogans of old are no substitute for realistic proposals.

For long, India and Pakistan were stuck on the status of the LoC. India wanted it to be made an international border. Pakistan consistently, and very understandably, rejected that disastrous proposal. The Musharraf&#8211;Manmohan Singh consensus has resolved this impasse by brilliant creativity &#8212; the LoC will be made &#8216;irrelevant&#8217;, just a line on a map as Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said on March 24, 2006 in Amritsar. The state of Jammu and Kashmir will be reunited de facto.

That, by itself, will be a revolutionary change in a situation frozen for six decades. But it would be coupled with other measures, no less revolutionary, in a package deal. President Musharraf told Geo TV on Oct 23, 2006: &#8216;Self-governance with a joint management system at the top for both sides of the LoC, and you make the LoC irrelevant.&#8217; The four points were not hatched in a day. He had been throwing up ideas since 2003, if not earlier. So did Prime Minister Manmohan Singh since he came to office in May 2004. Their ideas converged and the back channel gave them concrete shape. &#8216;We worked very hard on that,&#8217; the prime minister said on May 2. The ideas were codified as the four points only in September 2006 in Musharraf&#8217;s book Line of Fire. He amplified them in a TV interview some time ago: &#8216;There was a fair amount of agreement that we need to give maximum (power) to the people of Kashmir so that they have a feeling of governing themselves&#8217;; i.e. self-rule, short of independence. The &#8216;joint mechanism was to oversee that self-governance and also discussing whatever we have not devolved to the people of both sides&#8217;.

Only people callous to the sufferings of the helpless people of Kashmir would sniff at these gains. The basics are agreed; but there is room for a Kashmiri input on crucial issues &#8212; how free will be the movement across the LoC? What rules will be made to ensure free movement to the rural poor? The bus is a cruel joke. The powers and composition of the joint mechanism are of crucial importance. There can and must be a consultative assembly comprising legislators from both parts of J&K as provided in the Northern Ireland agreement. Inputs have come from the unionists. The separatists feel comfortable with slogans of old. The people of Kashmir languish while politicians battle for their support.


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## EjazR

Just to clarify the Five points are :

(1) Phased withdrawal of troops
(2) Local Self - governance
(3) No changes in Kashmir borders
(4) A joint supervision mechanism in Jammu and Kashmir involving India, Pakistan and Kashmir.
An additional point added later was
(5) Cross LoC trade


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## gubbi

Omar1984 said:


> An independent Kashmir is much better than a *Bharat Occupied Kashmir*.



and Pakistan occupied Kashmir (aka Azad Kashmir) and Aksai Chin. The whole shebang.


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## gubbi

Developereo said:


> After thinking about it I agree that Pakistan should not play this card.
> Not because it wouldn't work. I think it would work and achieve Kashmir's liberation, but the cost would be too high for Indian Muslims.
> 
> First, in an India v/s Muslims confrontation, the Indian Muslims would be put in a very difficult position -- not least because anti-Muslim elements within India would exploit the situation.
> 
> And also, no matter which way the conflict was resolved, _especially if Kashmir became independent as a result of Muslim pressure_, the Indian Muslims would forever be punished for it by the rest of India.


I disagree with this assessment. Indians following the Islamic faith are proud of being Indians first and then proud of their faith, in that order.
Lets for a moment decipher a view of Indian Muslims vs Pak Muslims: people think,
1. Pak Muslims are a patriotic lot, love Pakistan and not the global Islamic Jihad struggle propounded by the likes of AQ. Other minorities in Pakistan - Hindus, Sikhs etc are very patriotic Pakistanis adn do not like India.
2. Indian Muslims, on the other hand, do not actually like India, are suppressed by the majority Hindus, and due to this alleged suppression, are afraid to express their views of universal Muslim brotherhood. Given a chance they would rather support the Global Islamic Jihad, and Pakistani Muslims rather than India.
Does that make sense to you? Pakistani Muslims are true believers because they support Pakistan, not AQ, but otoh, Indian Muslims due to their pride in being Indian and not supporting global Islamic Jihad have diluted their faith and do not deserve a coveted place among the faithful?

I seriously dont understand why Pakistanis have this strange misconception that Indian Muslims would support non-Indians against India and not be patriotic to India. How does that even make sense to you guys, eh?

Thats why I said in my previous post that this India vs Muslims is a non-issue on practically all grounds, except in the minds lacking powers of simple deductions and commonsense. Indian Muslims are Indians!! And Mighty Proud of It!! 

I say dont insult your faith by denigrating your fellow brothers because they are faithful to their country rather than to your country!


> But maybe it can be done in a roundabout way. Saudi Arabia nudging Uncle, Pakistan nudging the Panda, OPEC nudging the Bear, and everybody breathing down India's neck. I admit it's a long shot, but we may have to find a non-military, non-UN solution.


Now that's a very wily thought!  I like it, and seriously my respect for Pakistan would go through the roof is you guys can pull such a thing off. 
However, given the current situation and a projected future based on today's growth, do you really think world's power blocks would like to create friction with India?
Secondly, if you look closely, this game is already being played out, the only difference is that Pakistan is at the receiving end of it. Just check how vehemently Pakistani authorities denied that Pakistan had anything to do with Mumbai attack last year. Now they all sheepishly agree that the plan was hatched in Pakistan and was executed by Pakistanis (albeit non-state actors). Didnt all the countries put pressure on Pakistan to accept what Indians said (even if you still refuse to accept the evidence collected by Indian and foreign agencies.)? Now who succumbed to the pressure?
I see Kashmir issue going down a very similar pathway. I shall then say, 'I told you so'! 

Btw, I really liked Muradk's post. Pakistan really needs to up its economy than concentrate on Kashmir and drain/lose all the opportunities along the way.

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## gubbi

...................................................... self delete


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## dabong1

Muradk said:


> Waist to time taking this issue infront of the UN. Done it been there but nothing WHY because we Pakistani are still in denial that Kashmir wants to be a part of Pakistan, They don't want to join us they want a separate state all together. And buy the time this sinks into our thick skulls we would have worsen our relations with India.



Well i for one and the majority of my family want kashmir to be part of pakistan.

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## Developereo

gubbi said:


> I disagree with this assessment. Indians following the Islamic faith are proud of being Indians first and then proud of their faith, in that order.



I never, for one second, intended to give the impression that Indian Muslims are not patriotic. Sorry if it sounded that way. My point was that there are anti-Muslim elements within India who would use any India-Muslims conflict to try and marginalize Indian Muslims. _They_ are the ones who would claim that Indian Muslims are not patriotic, despite that claim being utterly false.



gubbi said:


> However, given the current situation and a projected future based on today's growth, do you really think world's power blocks would like to create friction with India?



That's why I said its a long shot.

My fear, actually, is that Uncle has come to visit next door for a very specific reason. China is perceived as the next big threat, and India is being groomed to counter that threat. Pakistan needs to be neutralized so India can focus fully on China, and that's the immediate focus of American policy.

Question is: how do they plan to 'neutralize' Pakistan?


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## EjazR

graphican said:


> Guess what, PA is 99&#37; Muslim!
> 
> I understand your reason to deny that and you are welcome to do so. But denial does not change the fate. Now I don't know even if you have faith in fate.
> 
> Stay cool buddy, it is not meant for you if you don't subscribe to Islam.. but Muslims all over the world need to be aware of saying of Prophet Muhammad PBUH including the one you hate to hear.
> 
> Just to make you bit curious, Holy Prophet PBUH had predicted that Muslims will conquer Iran (it has happened), Constantinople (it has happened) and Hind (....).


Hind has already happened as well in early 12th century onwards. Most ulema are unanimous as the hadith refers to Hind at the time of prophet Muhammad (SAW)

At that time area around the river Indus was referred to as Hind including present day Pakistan. So what Ghazwa-tul-Hind actually refers to is the land covering present day Pakistan (i.e. Punjab and Sindh provinces. So please stop falling to LeT propaganda and join the mainstream ulemas

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## SinoIndusFriendship

Developereo said:


> Question is: how do they plan to 'neutralize' Pakistan?



You already know the answer to that! They have already deployed >1,000 soldiers, not to mention an 'untold number' of Blackwater-Xe mercenaries. Not to mention the drone attacks, and getting Pakistan to fight their war against the Taliban. All of this has added to the instability in Pakistan. Not to mention the damaging effects to the economy.

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## EjazR

Omar1984 said:


> An independent Kashmir is much better than a Bharat Occupied Kashmir.



Do really think that Independant Kashmir will be truly independent? 

The first thing that will happen is US will establish bases for their co-operation to establish J&K as independant to keep an eye on China. Pakistan will be even more linked to the US as all logistics will have to go through Pakistan to Kashmir.
Kashmiris themselves will suffer because of the power plays between various nuclear states as well as US

It is not only bad for India, its bad for China, Pakistan and most important of all Kashmiris themselves. Many Kashmiris understand this and that is why the independence movement hasn't got much steam apart from the border towns and areas in the valley. They don't want J&K to end up into another Afghanistan to cater for strategic depth of its nuclear neighbors.

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## MilesTogo

FireFighter said:


> An independent Kashmir would be much more like independent Bangladesh run by Indian stooges. India has worked hard in preparing the stooges but their hardwork has gone down the drain due to insurmountable sacrifices of the Kashmiris.
> 
> I dont agree with the concept of a "free independent Kashmir". That will never happen so long as Congress or BJP are in power in India that thrive on making profits out of dividing people. Given BJP/Congress's history of making mischief with neighbouring countries for their religious/economic benefit, you think they'd let an independent Kashmir run on its on?
> 
> Either Kashmir would be under the shadow of India, or an independent state under the protection of Pakistan, it cannot be a sovereign state..
> 
> Unless you equip the Kashmiris with Nukes, ghauris and F16s ...
> 
> 
> 
> You don't even have to free Muslims or any religious class that feels insecure and unprotected under the BJP/Congress rule.
> 
> It's not even about Muslim for that matter. It's all about Social Justice for the minorities. Try adding that in your dictionary before we continue ...



I thought it was already established at the time of Partition that Hindus are not capable of doing social justice to Muslims.


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## R.A.W.

MilesTogo said:


> I thought it was already established at the time of Partition that Hindus are not capable of doing social justice to Muslims.



And still millions thrive within the social structure of India. There has been never a reported migration for the root cause of Indian Hindus doing any sort of discrimination as was evident in case of Bangladesh hostilities. So it is Indian problem and no one else's till people do not knock on their doors for help.......... One should not be too generous to be fatal to their very own existence.


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## Hulk

I have seen many people discussing atrocities on Kashmiri people. 
I have some questions.
1) It is ok to kill and enjoy the killing of a soldier, but is crime if a militant is killed.
2) It is ok to blame everything that is happening under the sun on armed forces and no need to provide any proof. Later when we find they were not at fault, no need to apologies. After all its some peoples agenda to make everything look anti-indian.
(This recently happened that a teen was killed and it was blamed on armed forces; later found that his friend killed him)
3) It is ok to start stone pelting at anything and everything, without even trying to find a peaceful solution. These people are so peaceful; they do not mind injuring others without a reason. (Some people started stone pelting when they heard Amarnath board got piece of land (Temporary) for pilgrimage. no effort was made to peacefully discuss the issue).
4) It is ok for the militant to kill anyone and no one will utter a word.
5) Its ok to throw stones at armes forces without worrying if they will get hurt. Do not think they are human beings. Its not ok if they fire to defend themselves.
6) Its ok to kill children and familes of armed forces, they are not human beings at all.
7) It is ok to kill anyone in the name of religion.
The troops are present in Kashmir because there is no peace, if peace comes back troops will be withdrawn. So in short part of the blame of strong armed forces presence in Kashmir lies with Kashmiri themselves.


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## R.A.W.

dabong1 said:


> Well i for one and the majority of my family want kashmir to be part of pakistan.



And my friends familiy who is a Kashmiri Pandit wants it to become Indian


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## dabong1

R.A.W. said:


> And my friends familiy who is a Kashmiri Pandit wants it to become Indian



So why dont we have a vote and see what the majority of kashmiris want.

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## dabong1

indianrabbit said:


> I have seen many people discussing atrocities on Kashmiri people.
> I have some questions.
> 1) It is ok to kill and enjoy the killing of a soldier, but is crime if a militant is killed.
> 2) It is ok to blame everything that is happening under the sun on armed forces and no need to provide any proof. Later when we find they were not at fault, no need to apologies. After all it&#8217;s some people&#8217;s agenda to make everything look anti-indian.
> (This recently happened that a teen was killed and it was blamed on armed forces; later found that his friend killed him)
> 3) It is ok to start stone pelting at anything and everything, without even trying to find a peaceful solution. These people are so peaceful; they do not mind injuring others without a reason. (Some people started stone pelting when they heard Amarnath board got piece of land (Temporary) for pilgrimage. no effort was made to peacefully discuss the issue).
> 4) It is ok for the militant to kill anyone and no one will utter a word.
> 5) Its ok to throw stones at armes forces without worrying if they will get hurt. Do not think they are human beings. Its not ok if they fire to defend themselves.
> 6) Its ok to kill children and familes of armed forces, they are not human beings at all.
> 7) It is ok to kill anyone in the name of religion.
> The troops are present in Kashmir because there is no peace, if peace comes back troops will be withdrawn. So in short part of the blame of strong armed forces presence in Kashmir lies with Kashmiri themselves.



Non of the above would be happening if you had a vote on kashmir.


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## MilesTogo

dabong1 said:


> So why dont we have a vote and see what the majority of kashmiris want.



Actually it is a good strategy - first Jihad and then vote...


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## Developereo

indianrabbit said:


> I have seen many people discussing atrocities on Kashmiri people.
> I have some questions.
> 1) It is ok to kill and enjoy the killing of a soldier, but is crime if a militant is killed.
> 2) It is ok to blame everything that is happening under the sun on armed forces and no need to provide any proof. Later when we find they were not at fault, no need to apologies. After all its some peoples agenda to make everything look anti-indian.
> (This recently happened that a teen was killed and it was blamed on armed forces; later found that his friend killed him)
> 3) It is ok to start stone pelting at anything and everything, without even trying to find a peaceful solution. These people are so peaceful; they do not mind injuring others without a reason. (Some people started stone pelting when they heard Amarnath board got piece of land (Temporary) for pilgrimage. no effort was made to peacefully discuss the issue).
> 4) It is ok for the militant to kill anyone and no one will utter a word.
> 5) Its ok to throw stones at armes forces without worrying if they will get hurt. Do not think they are human beings. Its not ok if they fire to defend themselves.
> 6) Its ok to kill children and familes of armed forces, they are not human beings at all.
> 7) It is ok to kill anyone in the name of religion.
> The troops are present in Kashmir because there is no peace, if peace comes back troops will be withdrawn. So in short part of the blame of strong armed forces presence in Kashmir lies with Kashmiri themselves.



Kashmiri civilians are hostages and the Indian troops are hostage takers. Hostages -- men, women and children -- will fight back any way they can.

And Indian troops have been ruthless against Kashmiri civilians:

HR Kashmir: Rape of Kashmiri women and the South Asia
Since January 1989 to April 30, 2007:
Total killing. 91,865 
Custodial Killing 6,899
Women gang raped & Molested 9,708
Civilian arrested 113,798
Structures arsoned / Destroyed 105,353
Children orphaned 106,930
Women widowed 22,530 

If anybody is targetting Indian soldiers' women and children then that is also wrong.


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## R.A.W.

dabong1 said:


> So why dont we have a vote and see what the majority of kashmiris want.




There cannot be any voting in the valley till the peace is restored and displaced Kahmiri Pandits are rehabilitated back....


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## Developereo

R.A.W. said:


> There cannot be any voting in the valley till the peace is restored and displaced Kahmiri Pandits are rehabilitated back....



Agreed. Restore the Pandit population and have a vote.


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## R.A.W.

Developereo said:


> Agreed. Restore the Pandit population and have a vote.



For the same reason there should be peace so that the same what happened in the past is not repeated again. And this will only be possible if the so called freedom fighters are kept in check and insurgency is dead. This is the same reason for which the army is present in Kashmir....

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## Developereo

R.A.W. said:


> For the same reason there should be peace so that the same what happened in the past is not repeated again. And this will only be possible if the so called freedom fighters are kept in check and insurgency is dead. This is the same reason for which the army is present in Kashmir....



Withdraw all armies. Put in UN/Pak/Indian observers to monitor the vote and let the three parts of Kashmir (Chinese/Indian/Pakistani) become together and vote.


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## R.A.W.

Developereo said:


> Withdraw all armies. Put in UN/Pak/Indian observers to monitor the vote and let the three parts of Kashmir (Chinese/Indian/Pakistani) become together and vote.



Peace first

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## KSRaj

Developereo said:


> The way to liberate Kashmir is not through the UN or freedom fighters. _It hasn't worked for 60 years._ The definition of stupidity is to keep doing the same thing over and over and expect different results. We have sacrificed 70,000 shaheed to this cause without any results. (I am not saying our freedom fighters are stupid, but the policy is stupid.)
> 
> The solution, I believe, lies in putting a united Islamic pressure on India. *Through a concerted media campaign throughout the Muslim world, we need to highlight the suffering of Kashmiri Muslims and India's cozy relationship with Israel.* We need to turn this from a India/Pakistan issue to a India/Muslims issue.



The basic assumption behind the point in bold is that the "Muslim world" will stand with Pakistan for the Kashmir issue. But do you really think that the "Muslim nations" (other than Pakistan ofcourse) and the public in those nations give a damn about the Kashmir issue? I think what has been happening until now is that statements given by "Muslim nations" in the 'Organisation for Islamic Conference' regarding Kashmir have never had much effect on their relations with India outside the conference. And there is no reason to beleive that this is going to change anytime soon. Also, many of these countries have started developing their relation with Israel, a country which may have more 'real' reasons to be hated by the "Muslim world".


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## Hulk

Developereo said:


> Kashmiri civilians are hostages and the Indian troops are hostage takers. Hostages -- men, women and children -- will fight back any way they can.



How do you define hostage, J&K is occupied by only people of Kashmir no one else can even buy land in J&K.
As per forces being present in J&K, if there is no violence there will not be any force, then there will not be any restrictions on people of Kashmir.

And there should not be hypocrisy that when Kashmiri's kill it is fine and when army kills it is not.

There are peaceful means also. I am seeing Kashmiri's do not adopt those means. This is something people do not understand when someone replies to his issue with violence no on sympathizes with them. Had kashmiri's replied to so called oppression with peace, that would have been a different story. 

Look at case the Shopain case, the people who are accused to have raped are all Kashmiri's but still people are using that incidence to raise anti-india slogan (Matoo, Dy SP Rohit Baskotra, SHO Shafeeq Ahmad and sub-inspector Qazi Abdul Karim).


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## Developereo

indianrabbit said:


> How do you define hostage



Someone who is not free.
Kashmiris want freedom from India and are denied that right by armed soldiers.



indianrabbit said:


> And there should not be hypocrisy that when Kashmiri's kill it is fine and when army kills it is not.



Anyone who kills/rapes unarmed civilians should be punished.



indianrabbit said:


> Had kashmiri's replied to so called oppression with peace, that would have been a different story.



The Kashmiris were peaceful for several decades without results. The resistance movement grew from their frustration when they realized India was never going to let them go free.


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## UnitedPak

R.A.W. said:


> Peace first



That would be the whole point of the referendum: To *achieve* peace.


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## KSRaj

MilesTogo said:


> Actually it is a good strategy - first Jihad and then vote...



Almost the entire Hindu population from the Kashmir valley has been uprooted now - (I dont think there are similar parallels anywhere else in the world where a group belonging to the majority community has been uprooted from their birth place due to their religion by some people from across the border!) - 
A vote after such a major displacement of people would not give the true picture isnt it? I think this is the line of argument that India could take.


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## KSRaj

Developereo said:


> Agreed. *Restore the Pandit population* and have a vote.



How do you "restore" the pandit population?
Many have been killed, most have their houses destroyed/looted and displaced. And the organisations responsible for all these are still active from across the border.
So it may not be as easy as you make it sound to get them back!


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## UnitedPak

KSRaj said:


> Almost the entire Hindu population from the Kashmir valley has been uprooted now - (I dont think there are similar parallels anywhere else in the world where a group belonging to the majority community has been uprooted from their birth place due to their religion by some people from across the border!) -
> A vote after such a major displacement of people would not give the true picture isnt it? I think this is the line of argument that India could take.



Please back up your claims. Kashmir has always been Muslim majority by far. How many billions of Hindus do you think were displaced from Kashmir exactly?



KSRaj said:


> How do you "restore" the pandit population?
> Many have been killed, most have their houses destroyed/looted and displaced. And the organisations responsible for all these are still active from across the border.
> So it may not be as easy as you make it sound to get them back!



So do you consider this as an excuse to keep the occupation and suffering going?
Many more Kashmiri Muslims have been killed and displaced. The Indian army responsible is still active.


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## KSRaj

UnitedPak said:


> Please back up your claims. Kashmir has always been Muslim majority by far. How many billions of Hindus do you think were displaced from Kashmir exactly?



Can you back up your claim that I have somewhere mentioned that BILLIONS of hindus have been displaced from Kashmir? You simply pulled that one out of your pocket didnt you ? 
Nor have I contested that Kashmir was not a muslim majority. It was and is one; will continue to be the same. 




UnitedPak said:


> So do you consider this as an excuse to keep the occupation and suffering going?
> Many more Kashmiri Muslims have been killed and displaced. The Indian army responsible is still active.



well .. now that YOU have mentioned it, can you now please provide a "neutral" link that would give the number of people displaced from Kashmir, with the breakup in the order of their relegion?

BTW, the pandit population not being able to return back to their homes is not the excuse for any "suffering". It was a reply to a comment asking to "restore" the pandit population!


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## Hulk

Developereo said:


> Someone who is not free.
> Kashmiris want freedom from India and are denied that right by armed soldiers.
> The only thing that they cannot do is ask for different country, I do not agree that is only way of saying we are free. In this criteria is taken there would be 100 of parts of world which can call themselves hostage. My point is were there any issue with people of Kashmir before the violence started.
> 
> 
> Developereo said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Kashmiris were peaceful for several decades without results. The resistance movement grew from their frustration when they realized India was never going to let them go free.
> 
> 
> 
> So you are saying if peaceful protest does not work you should start killing innocent people and hope they do not respond.
> I cannot agree with any one,when people justify killing, because some of your demands are not met. Give me more valid reason for taking arms and I do not believe there is any reason to kill innocent.
> 
> By no means violent means should be adopted to get your demand fulfilled.
> 
> And kindly justify what peaceful means where adopted to resolve Amarnath yatra issue. What I saw in that protest is that people of Kashmir are so in tolerant that they will start stone pelting at drop of hat and does not care if anyone gets hurt.
> 
> The moment you start killing innocent you are branded terrorist and you are no more freedom fighter.
> 
> And by violent means you can never get Kashmir resolved. And this UN resolution will fail (I am willing to take a bet).
> 
> Try to take the friendship route and you will see what can be achieved. I know 2 years back we had friendly relationship between us and Mumbai spoiled everything. People are more accommodating when you are friendly.
Click to expand...


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## Spring Onion

IndianSuperpower said:


> To the same extent we can post the pictures where the Kashmiris have wanted India........... So such pictures would be neutralized. Just need to google a little. So these claims cannot be used as a bargaining point along with Indian influential stand will force them to be neutral. There are always 2 sides of a coin.



Sorry mate its not just pictures but living human beings for killing whom India is keeping thousands of Army and paramilitary killing personel.

If only googling was enough to prove that Kashmiris are with India and they have accepted India as their part then India would not have needed thousands of soldiers to commit crimes against Humanity in Held Kashmir.


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## Gilgit-Baltistan

Pakistan has no rights to legislate over Gilgit-Baltistan.Its a disputed land.Their main concern is to build Bhasha Damn that why to get international funds they are pretending to give autonomy to this region.
Governer is ****..IG is ****..Finance secretory..Auditor General ****..Primne Minister Will be head..is this autonomy..??


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## Spring Onion

indianrabbit said:


> Kashmiris want freedom from India and are denied that right by armed soldiers.
> The only thing that they cannot do is ask for different country, I do not agree that is only way of saying we are free. In this criteria is taken there would be 100 of parts of world which can call themselves hostage. My point is were there any issue with people of Kashmir before the violence started.
> 
> .



By different country i think you mean a separarte country. But why should Kashmiris ask for a separare, different country in the first place? Because Kashmir in itself a separare country which has been invaded by India illegaly and now keeping huge army for quelling the civilian protests and surpressing Kashmiris at gun point.

making 100 parts of the world by breaking a country/ies is one thing while asking the invaders to vaccate one's own country and free it is quite another.

Kashmir is not part of India so there is no question of breaking away from India. Rather India should get out of Kashmir or in future sooner or later the suicide bombing would not take longer to reach that part also as it has been quite affective in Iraq.


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## gubbi

Developereo said:


> I never, for one second, intended to give the impression that Indian Muslims are not patriotic. Sorry if it sounded that way. My point was that there are *anti-Muslim elements within India* who would use any India-Muslims conflict to try and marginalize Indian Muslims. _They_ are the ones who would claim that Indian Muslims are not patriotic, despite that claim being utterly false.


Yes, we do not deny the fact that there are some morons in our society. And although they have their right to freedom of speech as stipulated in the Indian constitution, we don't let them speak for the rest of us!
If you watch the clips of Mumbai attack on the Taj, you will see many an elderly people sporting hennaed beards helping and talking with the security personnel! Do you want me to explain that?



> That's why I said its a long shot.
> My fear, actually, is that Uncle has come to visit next door for a very specific reason. China is perceived as the next big threat, and India is being groomed to counter that threat. Pakistan needs to be neutralized so India can focus fully on China, and that's the immediate focus of American policy.
> 
> Question is: how do they plan to 'neutralize' Pakistan?



Why do you think anyone wants to neutralize Pakistan? For what purpose? You are an independent country, you've got diplomatic mission in all the countries in the world, including India! 
Otoh, it might not be neutralizing, but more of a containment of Pakistan till the taliban menace is taken care of!


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## Developereo

indianrabbit said:


> The only thing that they cannot do is ask for different country



But that is _precisely_ what they want. Once you deny them that right, everything else you say is just disingenuous trolling.



indianrabbit said:


> So you are saying if peaceful protest does not work you should start killing innocent people and hope they do not respond.



India has 400,000 hostage takers who have killed 70,000 Kashmiris.
I think you are somewhat confused about who is doing the killing.



indianrabbit said:


> What I saw in that protest is that people of Kashmir are so in tolerant that they will start stone pelting at drop of hat and does not care if anyone gets hurt.



People might get a tad upset when they see their sons tortured or killed and their daughters raped by the occupiers.



indianrabbit said:


> The moment you start killing innocent you are branded terrorist



In that case, I will correct my earlier statement: Indian army has stationed 400,000 terrorists in Kashmir.

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## Hulk

Kashmir is part of India in our opinion. It has Kashmiri chief minister, khamiris participated in election 60&#37; voted. Till any other means is determined this is enough to prove they want to be with us. And for those hurriat proterster's I have a question, why these people were contesting election till 1980's.


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## Spring Onion

Gilgit-Baltistan said:


> Pakistan has no rights to legislate over Gilgit-Baltistan.Its a disputed land.Their main concern is to build Bhasha Damn that why to get international funds they are pretending to give autonomy to this region.
> Governer is ****..IG is ****..Finance secretory..Auditor General ****..Primne Minister Will be head..is this autonomy..??



Sorry your notion is already multiplies with Zero viz viz funds as WB, ADB already refused to fund the project (although its quite another matter that these bodies have funded Indian projects in disputed Held Kashmir) 


China is funding Bhasha dam and Inshallah we are going to work on it.


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## jarnee

Kashmir issue has kept Pakistani people busy..just hating India..your politicians and Generals have conveniently kept you busy with that... While they were ammasing wealth. 
Getting Kashmir resolved will not solve Pakistans problems.. It has led to its fall only...you cry about it further you will get into trouble.


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## gubbi

Developereo said:


> India has 400,000 hostage takers who have killed 70,000 Kashmiris.
> I think you are somewhat confused about who is doing the killing.


Show me sources which claim that majority of the casualties are due to Indian forces' actions!



> People might get a tad upset when they see their sons tortured or killed and their daughters raped by the occupiers.


Oh, I see. That doesnt happen if militants do it? And majority of the cases of atrocities are by Indian forces? Source?

See, without authentic, respectable sources, its all hyperbole, propaganda, dissemination of false information by one of the belligerent part to the conflict!



> In that case, I will correct my earlier statement: Indian army has stationed 400,000 terrorists in Kashmir.


What about Pak army in P0K= Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir? Did you happen to read the human rights violations in that occupied area? No one speaks for the Kashmiri Pundits? Arent they 'original' Kashmiris? What about flouting international norms when Pakistan 'donated' Aksai Chin to China? Did Pakistan ask for Kashmiris' consent before carving out the area? Oh isnt that a violation of Kashmiri's rights/self-determination? 
Aww, c'mon man. And Pakistan speaks for the Kashmiris? Hypocritical, init?


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## Spring Onion

jarnee said:


> Kashmir issue has kept Pakistani people busy..just hating India..your politicians and Generals have conveniently kept you busy with that... While they were ammasing wealth.
> Getting Kashmir resolved will not solve Pakistans problems.. It has led to its fall only...you cry about it further you will get into trouble.



atleast it will resolve Kashmiris' problems, and more than that it will relieve them of brutalities, dialy fake killings of Kashmiris, rape of Kashmiri women at the hands of Indian army and paramilitary men.

Dont worry about Pakistan my dear we will look after ourselves.

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## Developereo

KSRaj said:


> How do you "restore" the pandit population?
> Many have been killed, most have their houses destroyed/looted and displaced. And the organisations responsible for all these are still active from across the border.
> So it may not be as easy as you make it sound to get them back!



http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...i-honest-indian-perspective-7.html#post462485



gubbi said:


> Yes, we do not deny the fact that there are some morons in our society. And although they have their right to freedom of speech as stipulated in the Indian constitution, we don't let them speak for the rest of us!
> If you watch the clips of Mumbai attack on the Taj, you will see many an elderly people sporting hennaed beards helping and talking with the security personnel! Do you want me to explain that?



No, my point was that there would be opportunists who would use it to further their agenda against India's Muslims. We agree, so let's leave it at that.



gubbi said:


> Why do you think anyone wants to neutralize Pakistan? For what purpose?



So India can devote its full attention to countering China -- militarily and geopolitically. The US neocon agenda foresees an inevitable conflict with China, and sees India as a useful tool against China. India is not projected to be strong enough to be considered a strategic threat to the US.



gubbi said:


> You are an independent country, you've got diplomatic mission in all the countries in the world, including India!
> Otoh, it might not be neutralizing, but more of a containment of Pakistan till the taliban menace is taken care of!



Containment, neutralization, balkanization, whatever we call it. As long as Pakistan is not a factor in a India/China conflict, the neocon agenda is satisfied.


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## Developereo

gubbi said:


> Show me sources which claim that majority of the casualties are due to Indian forces' actions!



Yawn.
This has been debated _ad nauseum_ on this forum and elsewhere.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/32072-kashmir-azadi-honest-indian-perspective.html

If this is not enough, please do some searches to satisfy yourself.



gubbi said:


> What about Pak army in P0K= Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir?



There is no comparable independence movement in Azad Kashmir. Perhaps you were watching an Indian TV drama?



gubbi said:


> No one speaks for the Kashmiri Pundits?



Not sure why you keep saying that when I accepted their right of return.



gubbi said:


> Aww, c'mon man. And Pakistan speaks for the Kashmiris?



No, the Kashmiris speak for themselves.
If India will only let them.
In a plebiscite.


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## MilesTogo

I think Pakistan should do for Kashmiris what India did for Bangladeshis....


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## SalmanNadeem

^Agreed. They have tried many times. Might as well give it another shot, eh?


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## Bushroda

Jana said:


> Kashmir is not part of India so there is no question of breaking away from India. Rather *India should get out of Kashmir or in future sooner or later the suicide bombing would not take longer to reach that part also* as it has been quite affective in Iraq.



Why not bring it on now!! LTTE suicide bombers also ravaged Sri Lanka. But they all finally bit the dust. If a tiny island of Sri Lanka can do it. so can India.

P.S. In the past as well several Fidayeen attacks were carried out especially by LET. What happend?? India is still there in Kashmir whereas LET has caught the eye of the world. I wouldn't be surprised if sooner or later Drone attacks start happening on Mureedke or interiors of Punjab.


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## Spring Onion

Bushroda said:


> Why not bring it on now!! LTTE suicide bombers also ravaged Sri Lanka. But they all finally bit the dust. If a tiny island of Sri Lanka can do it. so can India.



That is up to Kashmiris to take it up or not. 

But till now the Kashmiris have never been involved in attacking any part in India.

The Kashmiri freedom fighters are fighting in Kashmir not India.

The day any of them started exploding Indian territories it will be indeed a long fight keeping size of India coupled with two dozens insurgencies.


There is limit to everything and i feel there will be limit to sufferings of Kashmiris at the hands of Indian occupied forces which might force them to opt for this one day.

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## Bushroda

Jana said:


> That is up to Kashmiris to take it up or not.
> 
> But till now the Kashmiris have never been involved in attacking any part in India.



I accept that most of the Kashmiris have not been involved. It is the other "non-state" actors doing the bidding.



Jana said:


> The Kashmiri freedom fighters are fighting in Kashmir not India.



Sure Ofcourse, those "Non-State" Kashmiri Freedom fighters just went all the way to Mumbai to distribute the share of sweets from Ramadan.



Jana said:


> The day any of them started exploding Indian territories it will be indeed a long fight keeping size of India coupled with two dozens insurgencies.



Thats what I said.. bring it On!!! Even with those 100s of insurgencies, it is not India that is topping the list of failed states or called unstable by anyone(except for Pakistan ofcourse). But, if u still believe then why not give a try? Maybe Pakistan might just get lucky after 62 years of agonizing wait.



Jana said:


> There is limit to everything and i feel there will be limit to sufferings of Kashmiris at the hands of Indian occupied forces which might force them to opt for this one day.



No point rendering a vile threat of suicide bombing and then making "emotional" statements of *sufferings* and *occupation* and *freedom*.


I am not discussing the semantics of right/wrong or Justice/Injustice here. All I am saying is, If you do believe that suicide bombings are going to be that effective, then just do it!! We all know for sure that atleast it won't be Kashmiris to Start Suicide bombing

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## r0ck

The Indian army is one of the most professional armies in the world. If this plan gets a go ahead then this would be such a disgrace and bring nothing about but shame even for the true soldier amongst the ranks of the Indian armed forces. This would be the case not just for the Indian army but for any army of the world that inducts such a degrading act of human rights.


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## EjazR

Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - Police admits laxity in counter insurgency

Wasim Khalid
Srinagar, Sep 13: Disappointed over the security breach by militants, the Deputy Inspector General of Police Central Kashmir Sunday pulled up the police officers in a meeting here for stopping work on the militancy front in Srinagar.
A senior police official, wishing anonymity, told Rising Kashmir that early morning DIG Central Kashmir H K Lohia convened a meeting of all Station House Officers (SHOs), Sub-Divisional Police Officers (SDPOs) and Superintendents of Police (SPs) of Srinagar to discuss the security breach in Saturdays car bombing near Central Jail, Srinagar.
Three cops and a woman were killed and 15 others mostly policemen were injured in the powerful explosion, that completely damaged a police vehicle.
The first thing he observed was police have stopped working against militants for past sometime, said the police official, who was present in the meeting.
The visibly angry Lohia, according to the official, sought reasons from SHOS and other police officers about their laxity in fighting militancy. How has a car filled with explosives reached the central Jail, Rainawari. The explosives-laden car was able to pass through almost 21 police stations, Lohia told officers.
Expressing displeasure over the working of district police, Lohia stressed on SHOs and other officials present in the meeting to gear up their men and intensify checking and patrolling.
DIG told us to increase frisking of suspected persons and vehicles, lay ambushes for militants and setting up of nakas to counter militant threats, the official said.
When contacted DIG confirmed that he had convened a meeting of officers to review the security situation in central Kashmir. We discussed issues pertaining to blast and I briefed them about the investigations, Lohia told Rising Kashmir.
He said the meeting was held after wreath ceremony of the policemen killed in car bomb was over.
However, he refrained from divulging details about the meeting.
On Investigations 
Lohia said they have launched investigations into yesterdays car explosion in Srinagar.
Asked whether the explosives laden car entering deep into city can be termed as security breach, DIG said, One lakh vehicles come and leave Srinagar on daily basis. It becomes difficult to check each and every vehicle.
He said they have activated their intelligence grid to track down the culprits. This year, it is perhaps the biggest incident in Srinagar. We are looking at it seriously.
Asserting that militancy has not ended in the State, Lohia said, Whenever they get a chance, they attack troops and police.
Accusing Pakistan of fomenting the trouble in Jammu and Kashmir, he said, After seeing that stone pelting has stopped in Valley, they intensified the militant activities.

---------- Post added at 07:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:29 PM ----------

Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - She braved life but death came too sudden

Hakeem Irfan
Srinagar, Sep 13: Gloom had descended on the entire neighborhood. Intermittent screams emanating from the windows of the two-storeyed old house which had been painted red to give a facelift. Brave heart Khadija lived here along with her four children.
Khadija was killed in an IED blast Saturday evening, few hundred meters from her home at Khwaja Yarbal. Her sons Yaseen (30) and Afaq (27) were struggling to control their tears.
Allah took her back. Nobody could change the destiny. I wish she could have lived to be part the marriage of her three children, said Afaq, working as mechanic in a local workshop.
The body of Khadija lay in the Police Control Room Srinagar for the whole night and was handed over to the family Sunday morning.
Breaking the lull, Yaseen sighed, She wished me luck morning when I left for the daily routine, only to never see her again. I should have stayed at home.
Khadija was returning from the shrine of Makhdoom Sahib after offering 'Asar' prayers when she was fell victim to the disastrous blast and lost her life. She would always get Tabaruk for us from shrine, Yaseen recalled.
According to the relatives, Khadija had brought up her four children working day in and out. Her husband Abdul Rehman Anchari had left her in year 1993.
The conversation was broken with the scream of Khadijas younger daughter Rehana who will put mehandi on my hands. Who shall I share my secrets with.
Hanifa, another daughter of Khadija, is married. Abdul Rehman Bulla, brother of Khadija who helped the family though thick and thin, chipped in. Her body was charred. I could hardly bear to look at it. I recognized only her teeth. But she is a martyr. She will have a place in heaven.
Diabetic and an arthritis patient, Khadija was seen as a resilient and caring woman by the neighbors. We have lost a good neighbor. She has lived here from her childhood and we cannot forget her easily, said neighbor Kulsum.
The blast site bore testimony to the gory face of death; also the sandals of Khadija that still lay there stained with blood. Move over security personnel and men, women and children were now inspecting the blast site and giving respective remarks and judgments about the incident.
Nobody other than the Tehsildar had visited the family and recorded the names and other necessary information.


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## Halaku Khan

*
Former militants father killed in Kashmir*
September 13th, 2009 - 12:07 pm ICT by IANS

Jammu, Sep 13 (IANS) A 50-year-old man, the father of a former militant, was shot dead in a village in Jammu and Kashmirs Kishtwar district by terrorists, police said Sunday.
Three militants led by Mohammad Amin, the area commander of the Harkat-ul-Jihad-al-Islami (HuJI) separatist outfit, barged into Ghulam Mohammad Chaupans house in Sigdi village, some 250 km from here, Saturday night and shot him dead, an official said.

Chaupan was the father of Raquib, a HuJI militant who had surrendered before the security forces in 2007.

This appears to be a revenge killing. Families of militants who have surrendered are soft targets of active militants and they intimidate them, the official said.


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## TaimiKhan

Whats the authenticity that these murders have been done by the separatists ??? 

In the 2nd report, the reported separatist leaves the organization in 2007, and after 2 years the other colleagues take revenge on him ?? That's laughable. If they had wanted revenge where were they for the last 2 years ?? Plus how does the "official" knows that it was the area commander of HuJI who came into the house, would they be leaving eye witnesses or don't such separatists cover their faces when attacking anyone ??


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## EjazR

Kashmir woman minister heals scars of rebel violence | Lifestyle | Reuters

By Sheikh Mushtaq

SRINAGAR, India (Reuters) - Her father and uncle were gunned down by militants and she has survived at least 10 attempts on her life, but the violence has helped Indian Kashmir's lone woman minister to understand the pain of victims.

Sakina Itoo, 36, is helping heal the wounds of thousands of orphans and widows, innocent victims of a two-decade anti-India insurgency in the disputed Himalayan region.

"I know their pain and that is why I have pledged to wipe away their tears. Inshallah, I will achieve successes," the soft-spoken Social Welfare Minister told Reuters in an interview.

"Major steps have been taken to rehabilitate them. Initially, we have identified 5,000 widows and 3,000 orphans."

There is no official data on the number of widows and orphans of the insurgency involving separatist Muslim militants and Indian troops in Kashmir.

Social activists put the number of orphans as high as 60,000 and say an equal number of widows live in the scenic valley of five million people.

Social activists say the number of women and children left without a breadwinner in their families is mounting with only a fraction of them receiving financial support from the government.

*Her ministry has spent about $600,000 through the Militancy Rehabilitation Council in last six months for the rehabilitation of widows and orphans, Itoo said, adding the schemes included monthly pensions to widows and parents of slain militants.*

Help also included scholarships for professional studies and school-going orphans, besides financial assistance to handicapped or disabled people.

"It is true the number (of widows and orphans) is increasing day by day. Most of them do not come forward," said Itoo, who is single.
*
UNACCOUNTED MISSING*

Itoo is the oldest of five sisters, she gave up her medical studies to enter politics after her father, a former speaker of the state legislature, was killed by Muslim militants in 1995.

"But we cannot punish families of the slain militants. These widows and orphans are innocent," Itoo said.

Not everyone is convinced of the government's intentions.

Parveena Ahanger head of the Association of Parents of Disappeared Persons (APDP), an independent group in Kashmir, is skeptical of the ministry's programs and says it has not accounted for all those missing during the years of insurgency.

"They only announce schemes. Despite tall claims, government has failed to provide us the whereabouts of 10,000 people who disappeared during militancy," Ahanger, also the founder of APDP, said.

Itoo, basing her estimates on a Ministry of Social Welfare report, said 2,367 people have disappeared, a figure which is lower than Ahanger's estimates.

More than 47,000 people have been killed since a revolt against Indian rule broke out in 1989. Separatists put the toll near 100,000.

The disputed region, the trigger for two of the three wars between India and Pakistan, is claimed by both countries but ruled by them only in part.


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## EjazR

EjazR said:


> Her father and uncle were gunned down by militants and she has survived at least 10 attempts on her life,



For those who think militants don't attack women and civilians, this should help you realize why militants are unwanted in J&K


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## Spring Onion

EjazR said:


> Kashmir woman minister heals scars of rebel violence | Lifestyle | Reuters
> 
> 
> 
> Social activists put the number of orphans as high as 60,000 and say an equal number of widows live in the scenic valley of five million people.



And these kids are orphans and these women are widows because Indian army had killed their fathers and their husbands.






> *Not everyone is convinced of the government's intentions.
> 
> Parveena Ahanger head of the Association of Parents of Disappeared Persons (APDP), an independent group in Kashmir, is skeptical of the ministry's programs and says it has not accounted for all those missing during the years of insurgency.
> 
> "They only announce schemes. Despite tall claims, government has failed to provide us the whereabouts of 10,000 people who disappeared during militancy," Ahanger, also the founder of APDP, said.
> 
> Itoo, basing her estimates on a Ministry of Social Welfare report, said 2,367 people have disappeared, a figure which is lower than Ahanger's estimates.
> 
> More than 47,000 people have been killed since a revolt against Indian rule broke out in 1989. Separatists put the toll near 100,000.*
> .




And you forgot to highlight the above part. 

Who is going to heal the scars of these victims of Indian army's barbarism?


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## EjazR

@Jana

IF there is a human rights violation by IA or Para-military corps, you can go to the courts and get the army officers or para military troops prosecuted. At least there is a process and many officers who have committed such acts have been prosecuted. I am not trivializing this. And I'm sure many have not got justice.
The payments are given to any one affected in the rebel violence. As far as I know, only if the person killed was an active militant (involved in killing civilians) his family will not get payments. These tend to be very few as most of them have families across the border.

What I wanted to highlight was the fact that LeT and Hizb groups commit murder and destroy property blow up shrines and govt. buildings. Thats why there is hardly any local support to these guys. And its mostly local informers that let the Police know about any suspicious activities.


As a muslim country, Pakistan signed the LoC agreement that says that both India and Pakistan will honor this border. As a muslim country and as per international law, Pakistan is bound to honor this agreement. You should know how important honoring agreements and promises are for muslims.
If militants are using Pakistani soil and infiltrate into Indian Kashmir in violation of this agreement, there should be opposition among Pakistanis for these terrorist groups, because they are breaking this muhaida/agreement. Moreover, they are causing suffering for the average Kashmiri.
This is just another TTP clone causing mayhem Kashmir. If you don't want TTP to rule in NWFP. Why should their clones LeT/Hizb do that in Kashmir?

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## EjazR

Pakistan's Ordinance Giving Internal Political Autonomy To Northern Jammu, Kashmir

The Gilgit-Baltistan Empowerment and Self-Governance Ordinance 2009 was approved by Pakistan's Federal Cabinet last week. The Ordinance is directed towards granting internal political autonomy to the Northern Areas of Jammu and Kashmir. The Ordinance, however, falls short of local demands and is only a change in nomenclature rather than genuine political reforms.

The 1949 ceasefire line resulted in the division of J&K with Pakistan gaining control over some portion of the disputed territory. Pakistan administered region of J&K was subsequently divided in 1970 into two administrative zones: Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK) and Federally Administered Northern Regions. AJK is constitutionally not a part of Pakistan and is governed by an elected President, Prime Minister and Legislature. Northern Areas are under the direct control of Islamabad and is ruled through a Northern Area Council headed by Pakistan's Minister for Kashmir Affairs.

The Empowerment Ordinance 2009, introduced as a replacement of the Northern Areas' Legal Framework Order 1994, completely overlooks the basic demands of the local population. The Northern Areas have been struggling to free itself from the control of the Pakistani Government for several decades. After years of judicial and legal ambivalence, the Government of Pakistan seeks to extend and reinforce its control over the Northern Areas through the alleged "reform package". The treatment meted out to the people of the Northern Areas for decades have made them skeptical of federal control.

The constitution of Pakistan and its map don't show the Northern Areas as belonging to Pakistan. At the same time Pakistan is not prepared to give the region an independent status or to enable its people to adopt a modern, transparent democratic system. Northern Areas thus have no politico-constitutional status. K2, the only weekly published in the Northern Areas, carries a message on its mast-head which succinctly summarizes the emotional state of the people in the Northern Areas; it reads 'Sarzamin -Be - Ain Ki Awaz' meaning "the voice of the constitution-less."

The people of Northern Areas do not have any justifiable fundamental rights since they are technically not citizens of Pakistan. The Frontier Crime Regulations is in force in the region under which every resident of the region has to report regularly to local intelligence personnel. The locals need an exit permit for moving out of the area.

Until 1994 the region had no elected assembly or even municipal bodies. In October 1994 first elections to the Northern Areas Executive Council were held and the Council continues to remain an advisory. In 1999 the Pakistan's Supreme Court in a landmark ruling directed the Pakistani government to extend basic rights to the people of Northern Areas within six months and treat them as Pakistani citizens. The judgment has not been implemented and in the 2001 elections across the country, the residents of Northern Areas were not granted voting rights. Thus the people of the Northern Areas do not have any representation in the Pakistan National Assembly.

Balawaristan National Front, under the Chairmanship of Abdul Hamid Khan has been protesting against the illegal Pakistani occupation of the Northern region while the Yasin Malik faction of the JKLF demands that the Northern areas, along with rest of J&K, be given the right of self-determination. According to Amir Humza, a leader from Gilgit, "It is a fact that people of this region (Northern Areas) are facing more human rights violations and whenever the official media talks of repression in Indian Kashmir, people with strong hearts laugh at this hypocritical attitude and people with weak hearts cry."

The local population was not consulted at any stage of drafting the Empowerment Ordinance. A committee under the Chairmanship of the Minister of Kashmir and Northern Areas has prepared the "reform" package. Post of the Minister for Kashmir Affairs and Northern Areas (KANA) will continue to co-exist with newly created position of the Governor. Thus the executive authority of the newly christened Gilgit-Baltistan region will continue to rest with federal agents. No concrete commitment has been made with regard to the timing of the elections to actualize a large part of the reform package. The move could also impact Pakistan's stand on the wider Jammu and Kashmir dispute with India. Pakistan has always emphasized on resolving the J&K dispute by ascertaining the wishes of the people of J&K, making the unilateral transformation with regard to the politico-legal status of the Northern Areas a diplomatic gaffe.

Amanullah Khan, leader of the pro-independence Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front, rejected the package, saying it appeared to be aimed at merging the disputed areas into Pakistan. According to Jammu and Kashmir National Awami Party (JKNAP) president Liaqat Hayyat, the Empowerment Ordinance is "nothing but a little joke to the people of this region and the state of Jammu (and) Kashmir."

Pakistan's move is doubly problematic: apart from under-addressing the anxiety of the people of the Northern Areas, the Empowerment Ordinance has further complicated the politico-legal dimensions of the J&K dispute. Complete silence on the part of the international community and India on the issue gives the impression that the LOC has been accepted as fait accompli and Pakistan sovereign right over Azad Kashmir and Northern Areas is implicitly accepted.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Gilgit-Baltistan autonomy*

By M. Ismail Khan
Wednesday, 09 Sep, 2009 | 10:37 AM PST |

The autonomy package introduced by the government for the people of Gilgit-Baltistan is a mix of good and bad news. The good news is that the area will now have an autonomous status with a chief minister and a governor. The bad news is that it has been given only a province-like status and has no institutional link with the four provinces or the Pakistani constitution.

It is not yet clear how the Gilgit-Baltistan Empowerment and Self-Governance Order 2009 signed by the president will affect the areas denizens and other stakeholders. What is obvious, though, is that this is an entirely new experiment in statecraft where a democratically elected government has created a province-like entity through an order.

Prime Minister Gilanis statement that Gilgit-Baltistan cannot be given constitutional status and representation in parliament because of Pakistans commitment to a UN resolution is a lame excuse as there is nothing in it that forbids Pakistan from providing legitimate constitutional rights to the people of Gilgit-Baltistan. After all, Azad Jammu & Kashmir operate under an interim constitution enacted by the AJK Legislative Assembly in 1974.

Only recently President Zardari signed a memorandum of understanding with China for a 7000-MW power project in Gilgit-Baltistan. Then theres the border agreement between Pakistan and China which is also provisional and subject to revision upon resolution of the Kashmir dispute. If the Pakistani government can enter into an agreement concerning Gilgit-Baltistan territories with a third party, there is hardly any justification for not entering into a constitutional accord, even if a provisional one, with the regions people.

There are two clear strands of thoughts regarding a possible way forward. The pro-Pakistan majority supports the areas inclusion in the federation of Pakistan as a province by adding Gilgit-Baltistan in Article 1 of the 1973 constitution as a territory of Pakistan  it could be subject to revision upon a final resolution of the Kashmir dispute. Others inspired by Kashmiri nationalist leaders call for an independent united states or confederation of Kashmir. Kashmiri leader Yasin Malik is talking about this and prefers that the status of Gilgit-Baltistan remain in limbo, followed by the option that the local assembly draft an interim constitution to enable the region to have a legitimate and comprehensive judicial, executive and legislative structure.

Prime Minister Gilani failed to admit that there has been tremendous pressure from Kashmiri nationalist leaders whenever the government has taken a policy decision on Gilgit-Baltistan. It is correct that the predicament goes back to the Kashmir dispute. The demand for a plebiscite on Kashmir may appear erroneous but it would be doubly wrong to make the innocent population of Gilgit-Baltistan (whose future was tied to the plebiscite) pay for someone elses blunder.

The people insist that their area, as large as the NWFP, is not a territory awarded to Pakistan by the Radcliffe Boundary Commission. According to them, neither were they freed from foreign tribes as in AJKs case. Gilgit-Baltistan, they argue, was liberated as a result of a spontaneous local revolt. Denizens opted to become a part of Pakistan and hence they believe that by getting rid of Dogra occupation, which predates the Amritsar treaty through which the regime acquired Kashmir from the British, they severed whatever symbolic relationship existed between Gilgit-Baltistan and the former princely state of Jammu & Kashmir.

On the other hand, the Kashmiri leadership has had difficulty in understanding Pakistans dilemma as, over the years, Gilgit-Baltistans geo-strategic importance has risen to a level where the area cannot be donated.

There was no Karakoram Highway in 1947 and the water and power crises in Pakistan have never been so acute as now. Policy circles realise that in a region beset with conflict and intense competition, Gilgit-Baltistan is crucial as a trade, water and oil corridor for South, West and Central Asia. With the Kalabagh dam off the table for the moment and climate change looming large, upstream water projects have become crucial for the survival and development of the country.

Containing some of the worlds largest freshwater resources on which the irrigated agriculture of Punjab and Sindh depends, the estimated hydroelectric potential of the eight rivers and countless streams in Gilgit-Baltistan goes beyond Pakistans current needs.

Ongoing mega projects like the Bhasha-Diamir dam further necessitates that Gilgit-Baltistan be brought into the mainstream and that its people be given a voice in national decision-making so that the regions public representatives can also take part in inter-provincial deliberations to safeguard socio-economic interests.

Renaming the Northern Areas as Gilgit-Baltistan is perhaps the most significant part of the deal as far as the locals are concerned as this change in nomenclature will help people regain their lost identity and go a long way in resurrecting the tourism industry in an area otherwise devastated by the Taliban.

Moreover, the creation of the offices of an auditor-general, public service commission and chief election commissioner are positive steps that should have been taken years ago. But the increase in the list of subjects for the Gilgit-Baltistan assembly to legislate would mean little if the powers of the governor to discard edicts are not curtailed. Similarly, while the provision allowing the local assembly to debate the budget is a positive move what is also needed is to build the administrations revenue-generation and financial-management capacity.

True, province-like status given to the region may have saved it from a situation similar to the one in restive Balochistan. However, if the reforms prove only cosmetic, the reaction of the people there could turn violent. If this happens, it would not only hurt the patriotic sentiments of nearly two million locals but also harm the countrys interest in a strategic and resource-rich region currently surrounded by the Indian military, the Chinese army, Nato forces and the Taliban.

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Gilgit-Baltistan autonomy


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Elections on Gilgit-Baltistan LA on Nov 12: Governor Kaira ​*
GILGIT, Sep 15 (APP): Governor Gilgit-Baltistan, Qamar Zaman Kaira announced Tuesday that elections for new Legislative Assembly would be held on November 12. Addressing his maiden press conference after taking oath as Governor Gilgit-Baltistan, Kaira said that new delimitation of the constituencies was not being done because it would on the one hand would result in delay in elections, and on the other would result in allegations of pre-poll rigging by the transitional set up.

Qamar Zaman Kaira, who is also Minister for Information said that purpose of the introduction of Gilgit-Baltistan empowerment and self-governance package was to empower the people of the area.

Empowerment of the people is the manifesto of the Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP), and by implementation of this package, the people of Gilgit-Baltistan would get internal autonomy, he added.

He said that it is the credit of the PPP that it has always worked for empowerment of deprived people of Gilgit-Baltistan, and the third generation of the PPP has turned this dream into reality, the minister added.

Governor, Qamar Zaman Kaira said the present government of Pakistan Peoples Party has transferred all powers to the local people to fulfill the dream of Shaheed Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto and Shaheed Benazir Bhutto.

He said now the legislative assembly will be able to legislate in 61 areas. The elected representatives of the people will made annual development programme and the local people will be the master of their resources.

He said to hold fair and transparent elections, an independent election commission has been set up. After November 12 election, new government will come into being.

He said women will get due representation in the new assembly while the seats of technocrats have been reduced from six to three. The seats of women and technocrats will be under the proportionate formula.He said Gilgit-Baltistan Council is also being set up.

Qamar Zaman Kaira referred to the steps taken by the PPP for granting rights to the people of Gilgit-Baltistan.

The Governor of Gilgit-Baltistan rejected the impression that the issuance of the Gilgit-Baltistan Empowerment and Self-Governance Order would in any way harm and cause of Kashmir.

He said Kashmiri leadership on both sides of the Line of Control was consulted and the Kashmir Committee of the Parliament was briefed. The Committee expressed satisfaction over the decision, he added. He pointed out that members of the AJK cabinet are also present in todays ceremony as a mark of solidarity. Hurriyat Conference too has supported the move, said Kaira.

Qamar Zaman Kaira announced that apart from the two FM Station already launched in Gilgit and Skardu, Radio Pakistan would establish nine more FM Stations next year. With this, Radio broadcast would cover the entire region. He said that two medium wave 10 kilowatt transmitters presently operating in Gilgit and Skardu would be replaced with 100 kilowatt transmitters in two years.

He also announced that four new boosters of PTV would be established in Gilgit-Baltistan within this year. Three more boosters would be established by July next year. He asked PTV to set up its bureau in Gilgit by December this year.

Bureau offices of APP and PID would also be established in Gilgit, he said. 

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan&#039;s Premier NEWS Agency ) - Elections on Gilgit-Baltistan LA on Nov 12: Governor Kaira


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## Abu Zolfiqar

we recognize it as disputed territory. indians view their occupied territory as 'indian' 

if that were the case, why do they have so many soldier there in otherwise peaceful places like Sri Nagar (where, incidentally, the locals all wave Pakistani flags)


Inshallah all Kashmir will be united. And they will determine their destiny. 

Allah in ke Shadat kabool farmai. Inshallah Kashmir Azad ho ga, aur india ko zulam ka hisab dena pare ga. Allah Azadi ki tehrik main Kashmiri peoples ki madad farmai.

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## EjazR

The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | Kashmir takes first step to bring back Pandits

Srinagar, Sept. 16: The Jammu and Kashmir government today formally launched the process of bringing migrant Kashmiri Pandits back.

The government has constituted a committee, headed by revenue minister Raman Bhalla and including senior Pandit leaders, to monitor the implementation of Prime Minister Manmohan Singhs Rs 1,618-crore package meant to facilitate their return.

The government wants an early return of Kashmiri Pandits and the committee has been constituted to speed up the process of bringing them back, Nasir Aslam Wani, minister of state for revenue, said. We want the Pandits to suggest measures about how fast we can achieve that goal, (that is) the reason (why) we have included various Pandit voices in the committee, he added.

Around 35,000 families are registered as migrants in Jammu and more than 20,000 outside the state. Most of them are Pandits. More than 15,000 families receive a cash compensation of Rs 4,000 per family in addition to 9kg of ration per person a month.

The Prime Ministers package envisages financial assistance of Rs 7.5 lakh per family for renovation or reconstruction of houses located in the Valley.

The migrants will also be given temporary accommodation till they complete the reconstruction of their houses. In case any family wishes to stay in their chosen rented accommodation, the government will reimburse the rent.

The package has also allowed different families who have sold their houses to form cooperative societies and accordingly each member family of the society will be given financial assistance of Rs 7.5 lakh for purchasing land and constructing house, an official spokesperson said.

Besides, 6,000 Pandit youth will get jobs in the government sector in the Valley.

All the Kashmiri Pandit migrants will continue to get the relief for two years and their children will also be given a monthly stipend

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## dabong1

There not migrants......... there kashmiri refugees.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Perfect - one less excuse for the Indians to avoid holding a plebiscite.

I suppose all those Mirpuris and other Kashmiris settled abroad would also be registered to vote in such a plebiscite:


> *It is estimated that over a million people of Kashmiri origin are settled in Britain, USA, Canada, Middle East and in various European countries.* They come from different parts of Jammu Kashmir State. However, an over whelming majority originates from the areas that formed part of Jammu province in the United Kashmir. And are now officially known &#8216;Azad Jammu and Kashmir&#8217;
> 
> At least half of this a million strong diaspora are settled in Britain where over 99&#37; have roots in &#8216;Azad&#8217; Kashmir.
> 
> The latest literature on British Kashmiris shows that around three hundred families originate from the Valley. Most of the Valley Kashmiris in Britain are professionals, predominately doctors followed by lawyers. They live either in London or in the suburban areas of various towns across Britain where many work as General Practitioners or GPs. Or &#8216;APNA doctors&#8217; as GPs are commonly known amongst older generation of &#8216;Azad&#8217; Kashmiris. Although they are smaller in numbers but can be more influential in effect as they are batter located within the British system.
> 
> KNIC - Diaspora and Development: the case of British Kashmiris from Azad Kashmir by Shams Rehman



Not to mention the million(s)/hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri origin settled in Pakistan.

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## bandit

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Perfect - one less excuse for the Indians to avoid holding a plebiscite.
> 
> I suppose all those Mirpuris and other Kashmiris settled abroad would also be registered to vote in such a plebiscite:
> 
> 
> Not to mention the million(s)/hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri origin settled in Pakistan.



The issue is contingent upon removal of Pakistani troops from Kashmir completely. When the Pakistani troops go back to Pakistan, then we'll talk about plebiscite.


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## bandit

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> we recognize it as disputed territory. indians view their occupied territory as 'indian'
> 
> if that were the case, why do they have so many soldier there in otherwise peaceful places like Sri Nagar (where, incidentally, the locals all wave Pakistani flags).



Srinagar is a peaceful place because of those troops. It is peaceful because the army kicked out the terrorist bastards from there.

And no, all locals do not wave Pakistani flags there.




> _Inshallah all Kashmir will be united. And they will determine their destiny.
> 
> Allah in ke Shadat kabool farmai. Inshallah Kashmir Azad ho ga, aur india ko zulam ka hisab dena pare ga. Allah Azadi ki tehrik main Kashmiri peoples ki madad farmai_.



Listening too much to mullahs is bad for health.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

bandit said:


> The issue is contingent upon removal of Pakistani troops from Kashmir completely. When the Pakistani troops go back to Pakistan, then we'll talk about plebiscite.



The withdrawal is contingent upon India and Pakistan arriving at an agreement on the withdrawal (as the UNSC resolutions point out) - which will likely also include an Indian draw-down of forces replaced by UN forces - so no, the issue is not merely contingent upon the withdrawal of Pakistani forces, especially when the Indian government continues to violate its commitment to implement the UNSC resolutions- first India has to accept and re-commit to the principle of holding a plebiscite - only then can you talk about creating the conditions to hold a plebiscite.

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## praveen

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The withdrawal is contingent upon India and Pakistan arriving at an agreement on the withdrawal (as the UNSC resolutions point out) - which will likely also include an Indian draw-down of forces replaced by UN forces - so no, the issue is not merely contingent upon the withdrawal of Pakistani forces, especially when the Indian government continues to violate its commitment to implement the UNSC resolutions- first India has to accept and re-commit to the principle of holding a plebiscite - only then can you talk about creating the conditions to hold a plebiscite.



AM it is useless to talk about it none wants to yield and India is playing a waiting game.How much be discuss the issue all we will be doing is beating around the same bush

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## bandit

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The withdrawal is contingent upon India and Pakistan arriving at an agreement on the withdrawal (as the UNSC resolutions point out) - which will likely also include an Indian draw-down of forces replaced by UN forces - so no, the issue is not merely contingent upon the withdrawal of Pakistani forces, especially when the Indian government continues to violate its commitment to implement the UNSC resolutions- first India has to accept and re-commit to the principle of holding a plebiscite - only then can you talk about creating the conditions to hold a plebiscite.



Pakistan has to get out of the land it is illegally holding first and then can they talk about plebiscite. The much hyped UNSC resolutions recognizes Pakistan as the aggressor and therefore places the precondition of withdrawal of Pakistani troops before the plebiscite is held.
Yeah talk about commitments, why not show some yourself by unilaterally withdrawing and then point fingers on others commitments and intentions.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

bandit said:


> Pakistan has to get out of the land it is illegally holding first and then can they talk about plebiscite. The much hyped UNSC resolutions recognizes Pakistan as the aggressor and therefore places the precondition of withdrawal of Pakistani troops before the plebiscite is held.
> Yeah talk about commitments, why not show some yourself by unilaterally withdrawing and then point fingers on others commitments and intentions.



This discussion on the UNSc resolutions is continuing on another thread, and it has been clearly pointed out that the UNSC resolutions do not call for any sort of unilateral withdrawal from Pakistan without similar mutually agreed steps from India - please continue it there.

Let me just point out that it is India that is refusing to implement and accept the UNSC resolutions now (After accepting all of them when they were passed). So long as India refuse to accept that, the only thing a Pakistani withdrawal will do is allow India to send in her forces to PAK and occupy it and continue with its current occupation.

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## bandit

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> This discussion on the UNSc resolutions is continuing on another thread, and it has been clearly pointed out that the UNSC resolutions do not call for any sort of unilateral withdrawal from Pakistan without similar mutually agreed steps from India - please continue it there..



Sure



> Let me just point out that it is India that is refusing to implement and accept the UNSC resolutions now (After accepting all of them when they were passed).* So long as India refuse to accept that, the only thing a Pakistani withdrawal will do is allow India to send in her forces to PAK and occupy it and continue with its current occupation.* ..



That would mean Pakistan does not intend to remove it's forces from Kashmir which is a pre-condition for the Execution of the UN resolution including Plebiscite.

Therefore the onus lies on Pakistan to remove its forces first since it *Agreed* to it in the resolution. If it doesn't, it itself is in violation of the resolution rather than India.

And India won't send its forces into PAK, we may send it in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir though.


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## EjazR

Anti-India time over: Mirwaiz- Hindustan Times

Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, 36, chairman of the moderate faction of Kashmirs All Parties Hurriyat Conference, told HT on Thursday

The time to be anti-India is over. 

It was a startling shift in position of a man who has been one of the leading symbols of the Kashmir Valley movement for separation from India.

Hurriyat is keen on starting a dialogue with both India and Pakistan, Farooq said, adding the Centre seemed to have realised the Hurriyat was not articulating the Pakistani point of view, nor was it interested in embarrassing India at international forums. He has been invited to one such forum in New York next week: The Organisation of Islamic Confe-rence foreign ministers meet.

Mirwaiz, which means chief preacher in Urdu, wields considerable influence in the Muslim majority state.

The Hurriyat is looking at a solution that revolves around demilitarisation, self-governance and better people-to-people contact with the other part of Kashmir (Azad Kashmir) he said.

The Mirwaiz wields considerable influence in Kashmir and is the chairman of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC)


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## sergente rehan

For sure this doesn't means that they will kneel before india....i think they want some radical change in the region but india will never demilitarize Jammu Kashmire bcz this will be seen as a lose for the indian sight and the hole world will see the true indian face and all hose horrible acts they have done in these past 60 years.


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## EjazR

Its not about "kneeling" down to India. Its about being fair/honest about the situation and looking after what he sees as the best interests of his people and he himself being relevant in Kashmiri politcal space. Othewise he will keep getting marginalised by the public.

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## navtrek

sergente rehan said:


> For sure this doesn't means that they will kneel before india....i think they want some radical change in the region but india will never demilitarize Jammu Kashmire bcz this will be seen as a lose for the indian sight and the hole world will see the true indian face and all hose horrible acts they have done in these past 60 years.



No complete demilitarization in J&K: Omar Abdullah

The Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah on Sunday said that complete demilitarization will never happen in the state.

Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - AFSPA still needed in JK: Omar


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## Halaku Khan

*Pakistan-sponsored barbarism in Gilgit-Baltistan*

B Raman



The first signs of political ferment against Islamabad appeared in 1971 when an organisation called the Tanzeem-e-Millat started operating in Gilgit despite the ban on its political activities. In 1974, Johar Ali Khan, the founder of the party, called for a strike to demand the repeal of the Frontier Crime Regulations and the recognition of the basic rights of the locals. *When the agitation took a violent turn, AR Siddiqui, the then deputy commissioner, ordered the Gilgit Scouts, a para-military unit raised by the British and with a history of over a 100 years, to fire on the agitators and disperse them. They refused to open fire on fellow Shias. He then grabbed a rifle from a soldier of the Gilgit Scouts and opened fire on the crowd himself.* One agitator was killed and the crowd dispersed. Johar Ali Khan and 15 others were arrested and taken to the jail. A large number of Shias raided the jail and got them freed. They were subsequently re-arrested.

Following these violent incidents  the first in the history of NA since the Pakistan Army occupied it  Zulfiquar Ali Bhutto, then in power in Islamabad, issued a notification disbanding the Gilgit Scouts as a punishment for its refusing to fire on the Shia agitators. The disbanding of the unit hurt the feelings of the Shias. It also threw a large number, who served in the Scouts, out of job. This marked the beginning of the Shia population in NA getting alienated against Islamabad. The Friday Times, a weekly of Lahore, published in its issue of October 15-21, 1992, The Gilgit Scouts was the only credible law-enforcing agency from pre-partition times. Northerners generally resent the undoing of this centuries-old institution.

The widespread anger caused by the disbanding of the Gilgit Scouts led to the emergence of a number of anti-Government religious organisations of the Shias. To counter this, the local Army authorities allegedly encouraged the formation of pro-Government organisations by the Sunnis. This injected the poison of religious sectarianism in NA, which like the rest of Jammu & Kashmir had historically remained a tolerant society.

*This led to an anti-Shia carnage in Gilgit in May 1988 and was followed by more incidents in 1990, 1992 and 1993. In its issue of April 1990, The Herald said, In May 1988, low-intensity political rivalry and sectarian tension ignited into full-scale carnage as thousands of armed tribesmen from outside Gilgit district invaded Gilgit along the Karakoram Highway. Nobody stopped them. They destroyed crops and houses, lynched and burnt people to death in the villages around Gilgit Town. The number of dead and injured was put in the hundreds, but numbers alone tell nothing of the savagery of the invading hordes and the chilling impact it has left on these peaceful valleys. Today, less than two years later, Gilgit is an arsenal and every man is ready to fight. In March 1990, when the administration raided homes in Gilgit Town to seize weapons, one was reminded of Karachi and Beirut, not Shangri-la. In February and March this year, sectarian violence in Gilgit claimed several lives in the worst flare-up since May, 1988.

The Herald did not identify the invading hordes or their leader. These hordes consisted of Mehsuds and Wazirs from the Waziristan area of Federally-Administered Tribal Areas of Pakistan. Their leader was a man called Osama bin Laden. He was then the blue-eyed mujahideen of the USAs CIA. In 1988, it was the end of the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan. Before the Soviets announced their intention to withdraw, attacks by Afghan and Arab mujahideens were intensified. An increased number of private flights organised by the CIA brought in more and more weapons to be used by mujahideens against the Soviet troops. Some of these weapons were diverted by the ISI to the Mehsuds and Wazirs, who carried out during 1988 the greatest massacre of Shias in the history of the sub-continent since India and Pakistan became independent in 1947. More Shias of Gilgit were killed by bin Ladens Mehsuds and Wazirs in 1988 than the Shias (Hazaras) killed by the Taliban during the five years of its rule in Afghanistan.*

Since the support of these tribals and of OBL and his Arab mujahideen was needed in the culminating battles against the Soviet troops, the Western world maintained a silence on the carnage of the Shias. Till The Herald broke the story of the carnage two years later, the outside world hardly had an idea of the ferocity of the suppression of the Shias of Gilgit by the Pakistan Army with the help of the invading tribal hordes from FATA.

Writing on the same subject, the Friday Times (October 15-21, 1992) said, *In 1988, 150 people were killed when armed lashkars from Chilas and Kohistan  a predominantly Sunni and an exceptionally militant region  raided the Shia-dominated region of Gilgit. After eight days of uninterrupted carnage, the military was finally called in and curfew imposed. Zia-ul-Haqs regime exploited the Shia-Sunni chasm. The invasion from outside has ignited an inferno of instability that has continued to blaze with the passage of time. It has militarised an otherwise peaceful environment into a ghetto of blind hatreds and animosities.*

Twenty-eight Shias were killed in Gilgit Town in May 1992. Latif Hasan, a well-known Shia leader of the town, was murdered in broad daylight by masked assassins, leading to retaliatory attacks by Shias on the Sunnis, killing six of them. On August 18, 1993, 20 Shias were killed in the same town and the authorities had to impose a curfew.

Strongly condemning the anti-Shia incidents in NA, Allama Syed Sajid Ali Naqvi, the chief of the Tehrik-e-Jafria Pakistan, the Shia political organisation of Pakistan, demanded the dismissal of the inspector-general of police of NA. The Frontier Post of August 28, 1993, quoted him as saying, *Due to wrong policies and inappropriate tactics of the IGP of Northern Areas, the situation has deteriorated to such an extent that the Pakistan Army had to leave the peaks of Siachen for the streets of Gilgit. The bureaucracy and the authorities of Northern Areas, who do not have the fear of accountability, have started interfering in the beliefs, customs, traditions and religious affairs of the poor people.*


-- The writer is director of the Institute for Topical Studies, Chennai.


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## warlock21

Really wants to know when writer visited the area ..... i don't think some one from chennai knows abt shia - sunni conflict tht also in 80's... may be true if the poster can post some international site link(S) too.


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## Omar1984

Another indian news article making lies and propaganda against Pakistan.

The author is from Chennai, India (south India not so far from Sri Lanka). How on earth would he know what is happening in Gilgit-Baltistan (the most northern areas of Pakistan).


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## Righteous_Fire

Omar1984 said:


> Another indian news article making lies and propaganda against Pakistan.
> 
> The author is from Chennai, India (south India not so far from Sri Lanka). How on earth would he know what is happening in Gilgit-Baltistan (the most northern areas of Pakistan).



I wanted to say this same thing......... however I was doing some research........

But Yeah! this is just anti Pak propaganda, and the writer isnt that well known either.

*Maybe he is following India TV like drastic measures for popularity*


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## Halaku Khan

The writer is quoting from Pakistani publications, including The Herald, the Friday Times and the Frontier Post.


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## Righteous_Fire

Halaku Khan said:


> The writer is quoting from Pakistani publications, including The Herald, the Friday Times and the Frontier Post.



Correction:



Halaku Khan said:


> The writer is quoting *out of context* from Pakistani publications, including The Herald, the Friday Times and the Frontier Post.



That said, not every one of the points he raise is wrong........

Much of what he has said is right, *but to say that this was done or sponsored bu the Govt of Pakistan or the state is complete utter non sense. *

That is why I said he is just being a sensationalist !!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Sorry - but allowing B Raman, a known Pakistan hater, free comment bashing Pakistan on this forum is like allowing Zaid Hamid free comment on an Indian forum.

Thread closed since the source is neither objective nor unbiased with a reputation for irrational Pakistan bashing.*


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## EjazR

Syed Ali Geelani gets passport for visiting ailing son in Pakistan - India - NEWS - The Times of India

SRINAGAR: With his son ailing in Pakistan, the government has issued a passport to hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani for the first
time since militancy broke out in Jammu and Kashmir.

Highly-placed sources said chief minister Omar Abdullah personally intervened in the matter and saw that 79-year-old Geelani, who was recently released from custody, gets his travel document for visiting Pakistan to see his son.

The passport of the erstwhile Jamaat leader was seized in 1981 for his ani-India activities and since then he was given a country-specific travel document in 2006 for performing Hajj pilgrimage.

The Geelani camp had approached the state government through backdoor intermediaries for issuance of passport to the leader. After assessing the case, Geelani was handed over his passport for a period of one year and according to sources close to him, he would be travelling to Pakistan to meet his son Nayeem, who had suffered two consecutive heart attacks last month and continued to be in hospital there.

The government also issued a passport to moderate Hurriyat chairman Mirwaiz Umer Farooq who is expected to attend contact group meet of Organisation of Islamic Conference's foreign ministers in New York later this month.


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## Awesome

How scared these guys are to let them meet with Pakistanis.


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## praveen

Asim Aquil said:


> How scared these guys are to let them meet with Pakistanis.



Atleat we didn't house arrest him for decades like you did with Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan


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## Awesome

You real arrested/tortured him many times


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## Reddy

There is no point in wasting taxpayers money on keeping these separatists in house arrest or in jail, they should be shot dead, we will have less nusianace.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Reddy said:


> There is no point in wasting taxpayers money on keeping these separatists in house arrest or in jain, they should be shot dead, we will have less nusianace.



Better yet, fulfill the commitment made by your country and government to the people of Kashmir to allow them to decide which nation they wish to be a part of.


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## Reddy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Better yet, fulfill the commitment made by your country and government to the people of Kashmir to allow them to decide which nation they wish to be a part of.



Indian govt. commitment is only to the people of india not to separatists. India has an accession agreement with the king of J&K, so whole of J&K belongs to india.

We should not pamper these separatists.


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## EjazR

Kashmir Watch :: In-depth coverage on Kashmir conflict: Pakistan Gilgit Package

The Prime Minister of Pakistan, Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani, on 4th September, 2009 threw a bomb shell in the name of &#8216;empowerment&#8217; and &#8216;self rule&#8217; governance order for &#8216;Gilgit-Baltistan&#8217; region which Pakistan identified since occupation as &#8216;Northern Areas&#8217;. Its intention is to silence the liberation movement of two million citizens of this occupied area of Jammu and Kashmir since 1947. With the aid and abetment of Pakistani army, the Gilgit Muslim Scouts abducted Kashmir Governor, Brig. Ghansara Singh on 16th November, 1947. Indian army could not rescue the Governor and Pakistan Army took over Gilgit. Since then this region has been under illegal occupation of Pakistan&#8217;s military. The Pakistan&#8217;s interest in the region is obvious as the geo-strategic importance of the territory has never been in doubt. To the north-east lies the Chinese border, further north is Kazakhstan, to the north-west there is Afghanistan. The controversial Karakoram Highway runs through the region and the Siachen Glacier commands a strategic portion of it. There lies Anglo-American interest too.

The recent &#8216;Self Rule&#8217; Package of Pakistan is 5th attempt to consolidate Pakistan&#8217;s occupation in Gilgit. It was Benazir Bhutto, the then Prime Minister of Pakistan in 1994 who granted a &#8216;Reform Package&#8217; for the Gilgit region by introducing a so-called &#8216;24 Member Council&#8217; for the occupied areas without granting civil, political or economic rights. The so-called Council was chaired by an executive officer of Pakistan. The council worked directly under the command of Pakistani army. The &#8216;Reform Package&#8217; was described by the then Prime Minister of ***, Sardar Qayyum Khan as a joke on the people of Gilgit. In his letter addressed to the Prime Minister of Pakistan, he stated, &#8220;This has caused serious concern in our minds. While we study the implications and significance of the decision by the Government of Pakistan, I would urge the Prime Minister of Pakistan, Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto, to clarify that this decision in no way affects, or is prejudicial to, the UNCIP Resolutions on Kashmir.&#8221; 15 years later another Government of Pakistan led by the same party, PPP, has repeated the same bluff it did in 1994. Now &#8216;Self Rule&#8217;.

The present move reveals Pakistan&#8217;s dangerous conspiracy to annex strategic areas of Gilgit-Baltistan comprising 32,500 sq. miles of the territory of the erstwhile Dogra State of Jammu and Kashmir as its 5th province. Nearly 5,000 sq. miles out of this area were ceded by Pakistan to China in 1963 under the so-called Karachi Agreement signed by the Chou-en-Lai and Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, Foreign Ministers of Pakistan and China respectively. China since has built Karakoram Highway (KKH) which bridges China with Europe via Peshawar (Pakistan). China has also built 16 Air-strips on KKH, mostly used for military purpose. Pakistan has taken up a new project to build 6 Mega Dams in Gilgit-Baltistan with the technical and financial assistance of China. Both these decisions; ceding J&K territory to China and building 6 Mega Dams in the occupied territory of J&K seriously violate the UNCIP resolution of 13th August, 1948 on which Pakistan has been harping for 62 years. Besides, the presence of 5,000 Chinese well-equipped troops as disguised labourers and engineers and the construction of 16 Air-strips on the Highway for Jet Fighters may jeopardize peace process between India and Pakistan. It may effect peace prospects in Afghanistan and endanger India&#8217;s security. Anglo-American Bloc has been showing special interest in the region because of China&#8217;s presence in the region.

The &#8216;Self Rule Package&#8217; is an improved form of 1974 Interim Constitution of the so-called &#8216;Azad Kashmir&#8217;. A comparative study of two documents leads to the conclusion that Pakistan has decided to establish its legitimacy both in *** and Gilgit regions by legitimizing her status from an &#8216;occupier&#8217; or &#8216;encroacher&#8217; to a &#8216;possessor&#8217; so that area does not figure in the list of &#8216;disputed&#8217; territories. This is to counter Indian claim as maintained to liberate entire occupied territory from Pakistan as has been recorded in Parliament resolution of 1994 during P.V. Narasimha Rao&#8217;s Prime Ministership. 

&#8216;Self Rule&#8217; Package provides two Houses of the Legislature, a Legislative Assembly (without legislative powers) and a Legislative Council. The Council shall enjoy the legislative powers over all 60 odd subjects identified with municipal powers. The Assembly has no Legislative competence. The decisions of the Council are not subjected to the authority of the Assembly. Interestingly, the Council shall have 15 Members which shall be presided over by the Prime Minister of Pakistan. The Governor of Gilgit-Baltistan is a sitting Minister in the Federal Government who shall also be the Vice Chairman of the Council. Shockingly, the Prime Minister of Pakistan is also the Chairman of the Legislative Council of the so-called &#8216;Azad Kashmir&#8217;. Half of the members in the Council shall be nominated by the Prime Minister of Pakistan from amongst the citizens of Pakistan. Similar is the case with the Council of Azad Kashmir. There is a sharp contradiction between Interim Constitution of the &#8216;Azad Kashmir&#8217;, 1974 and Self Rule Package of &#8216;Gilgit-Baltistan&#8217; 2009. The so-called &#8216;Azad Kashmir&#8217; is headed by a President who is elected by the Assembly Members and Prime Minister heads the Government. Both have to be &#8216;State Subjects&#8217;. Pakistan has carefully rather intriguely changed nomenclatures of these two heads in Gilgit-Baltistan. There shall be a Governor, a sitting Federal Minister of Pakistan (of course, a citizen of Pakistan) appointed by the President of Pakistan and the Chief Minister (not Prime Minister) shall be from amongst the members of the Legislative Assembly of Gilgit-Baltistan. This is a clear manifestation of the future game plan of Pakistan to annex Gilgit-Baltistan as its 5th province. The judicial system makes mockery of the present Self Rule ordinance. There shall be some so-called judicial officers. The official language has not been defined. Without a High Court there shall be a Chief Judge with five judges of the so-called Appellate Court. Judges, including Members of Legislative Assembly and the Council shall have to take an oath of allegiance to be loyal to Pakistan and follow Holy Quran. It is not necessary that a candidate for the Assembly should be a state subject in Gilgit. In fact, concept of state subject has been done away with right since 1947. Qualification of a candidate for the Assembly in *** is that he should be a &#8216;state subject&#8217; within the scope of the law which was promulgated by Maharaja Hari Singh through a Royal decree in 1927. This continues to be a strict law in J&K and in *** as well. This rule has not been followed in Gilgit package, enabling Pakistani citizens to settle in Gilgit. Naturally so, because one-third of the total population in Gilgit-Baltistan has migrated from Punjab and Blochistan in past six decades of Pakistani military rule in the area. The &#8216;Self Rule&#8217; ordinance does not mention whether a candidate for the Assembly or Council should be a Muslim. Naturally, there are no non-Muslims in the region. Not a single non-Muslim survived in the region in 1947. They were killed or converted.

In subtle contrast, the Instrument of Accession that Maharaja Hari Singh wrote while acceding to the Dominion of India in 1947 transferred subjects including Defence, Foreign Affairs, Communication and Currency to the Dominion of India whereas Pakistan had brutally exercised its control vis-&#65533;-vis Defence, Foreign Affairs and all the state subjects over *** and Gilgit treating the territory as its colony. The Gilgit &#8216;Self Rule&#8217; Package expressly provides that jurisdiction over Defence, Foreign Affairs, internal security and matters connected with these subjects shall exclusively be enjoyed by Pakistan. This amounts in international law as a stark invasion and violation of UNCIP resolution.

The package provides Constitution of a two Member Commission to settle boundary-disputes arising between Pakistan and Gilgit regions. Both members shall be appointed by the Governor as employees of Pakistan. There are huge lands in the region has been illegally encroached by Pakistan army and the settlers. The Commission may be used as instrument to regularize the illegal encroachments, instead.

A serious diagnosis of the package would reveal a calculated conspiracy to merge or annex Gilgit-Baltistan with Pakistan as its fifth province. This is to outwit India&#8217;s claim over Gilgit-Baltistan.

The staunch opponents of this &#8216;Package&#8217; in *** and Gilgit include Sadar Qayyum Khan, former President and Prime Minister of &#8216;Azad Kashmir&#8217;, the Gilgit liberation movement leaders like Abdul Hamid Khan, Manzoor Hussain Parwana and many others who are spearheading a mass movement within the occupied areas. They are demanding withdrawal of Pakistan armies and referendum in the area. JKLF President, Ammanullah Khan has announced to form a parallel government in Gilgit, whereas Hizbul Mujahiddin, Kashmiri Leader, Master Salahuddin has served ultimatum against the package though, for different reasons. Mr. Arif Shahid of JKNLF has formed an alliance in *** to expose Pakistan&#8217;s nefarious design to change demography and cultural identity of the region. 

The Gilgit-ites fear that political stooges shall be recruited to the so-called Assembly and Council who would be used as rubber stamp in its so-called election scheduled for 12th November, 2009 to serve Pak interest.

Pakistan also has managed to sound the rebels in *** with a warning shot that they may also be framed under a similar &#8216;Package&#8217;. Pakistan intends to reconsolidate its full political supremacy over the occupied territory. The interim constitution, 1974 of &#8216;Azad Kashmir&#8217; may fall as next causality. They may have to live with a similar doze which Pakistan has granted to the people of Gilgit-Baltistan as Pakistan&#8217;s sixth province.

The package deserves a serious introspection by the South and North Blocks dealing with J&K. *Pakistan has admitted publicly before the international community and the United Nations that it no longer cares for the dictates or sermons incorporated in the resolutions of the Security Council proposing plebiscite in J&K after withdrawal of Pakistan armies and civilian settlers from the occupied territory. Pakistan has made it clear. &#8216;No to withdrawal&#8217; and &#8216;no to UN resolutions&#8217;. Pakistan has also accepted the status quo vis-&#65533;-vis J&K. Pakistan has expressly retained Defence, Foreign Affairs and other matters in respect of *** and Gilgit-Baltistan (which formed almost one-third of the area of the state).* The subjects which Maharaja transferred to the Union of India in 1947, Pakistan has assumed the same authority over the J&K&#8217;s occupied territory after 62 years by declaring, Gilgit-Baltistan as its 5th province which had been under its defacto possession since 1947. Fresh Sino-Pak strategy to grab Gilgit-Baltistan may not go quite pleasant with the Anglo-American Bloc. The US interest in the region remained to establish bases of the Pentagon to keep a watch on the expansionist designs of Communist China. British interest in the region is its &#8216;earth wealth&#8217; it discovered during its lease period from the Dogra Maharaja in 1935. To cope with the fast changing scenario of *** and Gilgit is a real challenge for the leadership of India and a question mark on the peace prospects in South Asia.

_Bhim Singh is head of Kashmir's Panthers Party_


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## Halaku Khan

*How an ex-Army commando became a terrorist (The News, 20 Sep 2009)*

By Hamid Mir

ISLAMABAD: *Once he was a blue-eyed boy of President General Pervez Musharraf. He got a cash award from the president for slitting the throat of an Indian Army officer in the year 2000 but after 9/11, he became a suspected terrorist.*

This terrorist was Ilyas Kashmiri, reportedly killed in a US drone attack in North Waziristan last week. US officials claimed that Ilyas Kashmiri was a senior al-Qaeda commander and his death was a huge loss for the militants fighting against the foreign forces in Afghanistan.

Very few people know that Ilyas Kashmiri was a former SSG commando of Pakistan Army. He was originally from Kotli area of Azad Kashmir. He was deputed by Pakistan Army to train the Afghan Mujahideen fighting against the Russian Army in mid-80s. He was an expert of mines supplied to Afghan Mujahideen by the US. He lost one eye during the Jihad against Russian invaders and later on he joined Harkat-e-Jihad-e-Islami of Maulvi Nabi Muhammadi.

Ilyas Kashmiri was based in Miramshah area of North Waziristan where he was working as an instructor at a training camp. After the withdrawal of Russian Army from Afghanistan, Ilyas Kashmiri was asked by Pakistani establishment to work with Kashmiri militants. He joined the Kashmir chapter of Harkatul Jihad-i-Islami in 1991. After a few years, he developed some differences with the head of HuJI Qari Saifullah Akhtar.

Ilyas Kashmiri created his own 313 Brigade in HuJI. He was once arrested by Indian Army from Poonch area of Indian held Kashmir along with Nasrullah Mansoor Langrial. *He was imprisoned in different Indian jails for two years* and finally he escaped from there after breaking the jail. His old friend Langrial is still imprisoned in India.

Ilyas Kashmiri became a legend after escaping from the Indian jail. It was 1998 when the Indian Army started incursions along the Line of Control and killed Pakistani civilians many times by crossing the border. Ilyas Kashmiri was given the task to attack the Indians from their back. He did it many times.

Indian Army killed 14 civilians on February 25, 2000 in Lonjot village of Nakial in Azad Kashmir. Indian commandos crossed the LoC, spent the whole night in a Pakistani village and left early morning. They slit the throats of three girls and took away their heads with them. They also kidnapped two local girls. The next morning, the heads of the kidnapped girls were thrown towards Pakistani soldiers by the Indian Army. { Note: Any credible source or is this propaganda? People make up such stories to justify their own barbarism.}

The very next day of this massacre, Ilyas Kashmiri conducted a guerilla operation against the Indian Army in Nakyal sector on the morning of February 26, 2000. He crossed the LoC with 25 fighters of the 313 Brigade. He surrounded a bunker of Indian Army and threw grenades inside. After one of his fighters Qudratullah lost his life, *he was able to kidnap an injured officer of the Indian Army. That was not the end. He slit the throat of the kidnapped officer.

He came back to Pakistan with the head of the dead Indian Army officer in his bag and presented this head to top Army officials and later on to the then Army Chief General Pervez Musharraf, who gave him a cash award of rupees one lakh.*

The pictures of Ilyas Kashmiri with the head of a dead Indian Army officer in his hands were published in some Pakistani newspapers and he became very important among the Kashmiri militants. Maulana Zahoor Ahmad Alvi of Jamia Muhammadia, Islamabad, issued a fatwa in support of slitting the throats of Indian Army officers. Those were the days when Corps Commander, Rawalpindi, Lt Gen Mehmood Ahmad, visited the training camp of Ilyas Kashmiri in Kotli and appreciated his frequent guerilla actions against the Indian Army.

His honeymoon with the Pakistan Army generals was over after the creation of Jaish-e-Muhammad. Gen Mehmood wanted Ilyas Kashmiri to join JeM and accept Maulana Masood Azhar as his leader but the one eyed militant refused to do so. The militants of JeM once attacked the training camp of Ilyas Kashmiri in Kotli but he survived that attack. His outfit was banned by Musharraf after 9/11. He was arrested after an attack on the life of Pervez Musharraf in December 2003. He was tortured during the interrogation.

The United Jihad Council led by Syed Salahuddin strongly protested the arrest of Ilyas Kashmiri and on the pressure of Kashmiri militants, Ilyas Kashmiri was released in February 2004. He was a shattered man after his release. He disassociated himself from the Kashmiri militants and remained silent for at least three years.

It was the Lal Masjid operation in July 2007, which totally changed Ilyas Kashmiri. He moved to North Waziristan where he spent many years as a Jihad instructor. This area was full of his friends and sympathisers. He reorganized his 313 Brigade and joined hands with the Taliban but he was never close to al-Qaeda leadership. He attracted many former Pakistan Army officers to join hands with him. The strength of 313 Brigade in North Waziristan was more than 3,000. Most of his fighters were hired from the Punjab, Sindh and Azad Kashmir.

It is alleged that *he organised many terrorist attacks in different areas of Pakistan, including the assassination of Major General (retd) Faisal Alvi in Rawalpindi.* Alvi was also from the SSG and he led the first-ever Army operation in North Waziristan in 2004.

Kashmiri planned attacks on Alvi on the demand of Taliban in North Waziristan. Sources close to his family have yet not confirmed his death in a US drone attack but there is no doubt that Ilyas Kashmiri was actually a creation of the Pakistani establishment like Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi of the banned LeT.

The Pakistani establishment abandoned and arrested most of these militant leaders without realising that they had followers all over Pakistan and they could create problems for Pakistan anytime. The establishment is still without any policy about all those who were once declared freedom fighters and were honored by the top Army officials like Pervez Musharraf.


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## Halaku Khan

^^^ Indians are fools to keep such people alive in jails. 

This vermin ought to have been exterminated the day he was captured.

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## EjazR

The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | Id freedom for Valley separatists

Srinagar, Sept. 20: The Jammu and Kashmir government today released two top separatist leaders and some youths accused of fanning massive anti-India protests after the Shopian rape and murder to allow them to celebrate Id with their families.

The government had arrested scores of separatist leaders and alleged stone-throwers to crush the anti-government protests that had rocked Kashmir after two women in Shopian were raped and murdered, allegedly by security forces, on May 29.

Those released include Dukhtaran-e-Milat chief Syeda Aasiya Andrabi and Hurriyat Conference&#8217;s provincial president Mohammad Nayeem Khan.

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## R.A.W.

EjazR said:


> The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | Id freedom for Valley separatists
> 
> Srinagar, Sept. 20: The Jammu and Kashmir government today released two top separatist leaders and some youths accused of fanning massive anti-India protests after the Shopian rape and murder to allow them to celebrate Id with their families.
> 
> The government had arrested scores of separatist leaders and alleged stone-throwers to crush the anti-government protests that had rocked Kashmir after two women in Shopian were raped and murdered, allegedly by security forces, on May 29.
> 
> Those released include Dukhtaran-e-Milat chief Syeda Aasiya Andrabi and Hurriyat Conferences provincial president Mohammad Nayeem Khan.



Good move by Indian government


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## Omar1984

Reddy said:


> Indian govt. commitment is only to the people of india not to separatists. India has an accession agreement with the king of J&K, so whole of J&K belongs to india.
> 
> We should not pamper these separatists.



Pakistan also had an accession agreement with the ruler of Junagadh, but a plebeiscite was granted to the people and the people (who most were Hindu) decided to join India.

The world's largest "democracy" should listen to the voices of the people belonging to their own land instead of a Hindu king who died a long time ago.


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## R.A.W.

Omar1984 said:


> Pakistan also had an accession agreement with the ruler of Junagadh, but a plebeiscite was granted to the people and the people (who most were Hindu) decided to join India.
> 
> The world's largest "democracy" should listen to the voices of the people belonging to their own land instead of a Hindu king who died a long time ago.



yes but kashmir as of now can not be left open to separatists to roam freely all over


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## EjazR

And I think GoP and Rangers must be commended for helping this happen. It would'nt be possible without their help in controlling infiltration.

After 18 yrs, peaceful Eid in Valley - India - NEWS - The Times of India

SRINAGAR: During the last 18 years of militancy, religious fervor in the Kashmir Valley has been subdued by blasts and killings. But, this
Eid-ul-Fitr was different: There was no violence or even the customarily shrill `azadi' speeches.

That's not to say there wasn't a flutter either: Soon after Eid prayers at various shrines in Srinagar on Monday, Hurriyat activists marched toward the Hyderpora house of hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani under house arrest for the last one month. The police resorted to a mild lathi charge to dissuade them from continuing their walk.

Meanwhile Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, addressing a large gathering at the Eidgah ground notably without the rigorous security ring urged the Centre to "open a dialogue with Kashmiris to end uncertainty.'' He said Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's forthcoming visit to Kashmir had created hopes of a resolution to the Kashmir issue.

For thousands of people who turned up at the prayer ground in their best dressed, the day marked a welcome change. Ghulam Mohammad Najar, a resident of Rawalpora who attended the prayers, said: "Everyone looked relaxed because there were no security men around Eidgah.''

Recalling the difficult days, Dr Rouf Jeelani of Buchpora, who too attended the Eidgah prayers, said: "The place used to be under the control of separatists. But this year, it was only religion that was being talked about.'' He hoped the situation would return to pre-1990 days.

According to Director General of Police Kuldeep Khoda, there has been a sharp decline in militant activity in the last three years. "Today, people came out on the streets without fear. The police had to face a tough time regulating traffic.''

Men, women and children wearing new clothes were seen strolling along the Dal Lake Boulevard. "I haven't experienced such a huge rush here,'' said Bashir Ahmad Wani, a resident of Nishat. Special prayers were also held at Dargah Hazratbal and at the sprawling TRC Ground in Civil Lines, where Jamiat-e-Ahli Hadees chief Maulana Shawkat Ahmad Shah led a congregation.

Residents of Shopian, too, celebrated without protests

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## Developereo

Are there any other issues that could hold up full normalization of relations?


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## Machoman

I don't think so, human nature is like that first its Kashmir then it will be something else.


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## Nemesis

Unfortunately No. The idea of India and Pakistan is completely opposed to one another. Even if this was not the case, i'm sure our lovely politicians would find some way to make us hate each other. They are after all, despite opinions to the contrary, not completely useless.


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## Developereo

Even now, both sides know the benefits of cooperation far outweigh the costs of conflict. It's just that Kashmir is a uniquely emotional and historical issue for both sides.

I don't know if any other issue would assume this much importance.

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## Musalman

Yes of course. We won;t have any reason to fight after that. No threat from India to Pakistan and Pakistan to India.


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## Reddy

I dont think so, there are plenty of issues to fight for, If its not kashmir then its water / Terrorists / Rann of kutch / Religion.

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## warlock21

I think u ppl are think abt Step - 2 and ahead of it... be4 think abt Step - 1....coz wht is possible solution from Indian Point of View is not necessirly a good or per se a Right solution from Pak. Point of View.... and vice-versa.


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## warlock21

so first think abt Step -1.... which is... what is the possible resolution on this.


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## blueoval79

Funny thread.......makes me laugh......even after Kashmir is sorted...ther will be a Khalistan......Pilistan.....Dhilistan.... 

Kashmir was not an issue till 1970's.........neither Khalistan.......Pakistan political class will find something new ....to fule any bleed India activities.....soon we may have demand of Hyderabad risayat not being an integral part of India..and there will be a demand of azad Hyderabad @ heart of India......

Anything to bleed India..


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## Peshwa

Well lets be honest......Pakistan has ambitions in the South Asian politics and policies.....

After India, Pakistan holds the most clout in the region.....

Even if the Kashmir issue is solved, does not mean that India and Pak will be friends all of a sudden....

There will be issues like, India's dominance/bullying in the region
Pakistan's co-operation with China and allowing Gwadar
Trade routes, Octroi/transit fees to Central Asia.....
Water sharing....

Issues are a dime a dozen......we pick and choose our battles and priorities

Remember, our politicians benefit from war and war-mongering....unless we can get them out of the picture and make politics in South Asia clean....never can we expect peaceful co-exisitence.....

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## Righteous_Fire

What exactly does the term *Smooth sailing* imply?

If it means War then = Yes, the journey after Kashmir settlement will be a smooth ride without a major war.

If it means No disputes = then No, there will still be many of those.

If it means a quasy Union of sorts = then No, that would be naive to think.


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## warlock21

Well Guys... jUst came in the NEWS...... India made it clear to Pak. tht in Newyork there will be talks on Mumbai and after... no other topic...Pakistan's Former foreign Sec. Mr. Talat Masood termed this unfortunate...... Indian Members can watch this on CNBC TV18 in karan thapar's show.


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## Righteous_Fire

warlock21 said:


> Well Guys... jUst came in the NEWS...... India made it clear to Pak. tht in Newyork there will be talks on Mumbai and after... no other topic...Pakistan's Former foreign Sec. Mr. Talat Masood termed this unfortunate...... Indian Members can watch this on CNBC TV18 in karan thapar's show.



Please post that News here as well:

UN New York

Thanx


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## Comet

righteous_fire said:


> What exactly does the term *Smooth sailing* imply?
> 
> If it means War then = Yes, the journey after Kashmir settlement will be a smooth ride without a major war.
> 
> If it means No disputes = then No, there will still be many of those.
> 
> If it means a quasy Union of sorts = then No, that would be naive to think.




I agree with righteous_fire.

Pakistan and India cannot be like USA and CANADA... we have had wars, may take a century to behave like real friends


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## warlock21

righteous_fire said:


> Please post that News here as well:
> 
> UN New York
> 
> Thanx



Well I have Just seen this on CNBC TV 18... if I find on net.. will definetly post the same.


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## R.A.W.

There will always be a state of cold war with the continuous preaching of hatred among the mind of people for 62 years.... And each one would be threatened with the ambitious plans of one another


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## xebex

There is a local saying in my hometown that, "why need a nose that can not hold on to ur face while sneezing." It mean, if u can keep losing friendship on minor issues then its better not having that friendship. It would be like saying, "*hey i can be ur best friend ONLY if u give 1000 dollars else u r my enemy*.", guess how loyal that friend could be???

to give u a frank answer, "Noone can not demand friendship over something"

First friendship, then wether or not to give u 1000 dollars.


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## Righteous_Fire

xebex said:


> First friendship, then wether or not to give u 1000 dollars.



Wrong argument Mr Xebex! 

this is not friendship for a price or demand, as you put it.* BUT*

The topic means to imply that

*"Remove the precipitating cause that always starts a war between us"*

*"Remove the cause, remove the war"*


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## R.A.W.

righteous_fire said:


> Wrong argument Mr Xebex!
> 
> this is not friendship for a price or demand, as you put it.* BUT*
> 
> The topic means to imply that
> 
> *"Remove the precipitating cause that always starts a war between us"*
> 
> *"Remove the cause, remove the war"*



On the ligheter side sir ji ....Stop laying claims on Kashmir... Cause removed problem solved.... and we can celebrate next Eid in together at your place and diwali at my place.....


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## warlock21

R.A.W. said:


> On the ligheter side sir ji ....Stop laying claims on Kashmir... Cause removed problem solved.... and we can celebrate next Eid in together at your place and diwali at my place.....



Jab dekho Khane ki pdi rahti hai isse...


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## Righteous_Fire

R.A.W. said:


> On the ligheter side sir ji ....Stop laying claims on Kashmir... Cause removed problem solved.... and we can celebrate next Eid in together at your place and diwali at my place.....





Then Bhai! what was the Jhagra all about?  

Since you are a bigger country, your *"dil should also be Bara"*!!

You have such a huge country!!! why do you hold on to that small part called Kashmir, please give it to us since we are so small  "*Aap ka kya Jaaigaa"*

Then we wont have a war! *EVER*

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## warlock21

righteous_fire said:


> "*Aap ka kya Jaaigaa"*



lol... Hum aapka kashmir bhi le lenge... aur dakar(burp) bhi nahin marenge..


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## R.A.W.

righteous_fire said:


> Then Bhai! what was the Jhagra all about?
> 
> Since you are a bigger country, your *"dil should also be Bara"*!!
> 
> You have such a huge country!!! why do you hold on to that small part called Kashmir, please give it to us since we are so small  "*Aap ka kya Jaaigaa"*
> 
> Then we wont have a war! *EVER*



Kisi ne theek hi kaha hai saare fasad ki jad 3 cheez hoti hain Jar, joru, zameen..... Ache ache bhaiyo ko lada deti hain....

bade hain to kya hua kitne kamzor hain... aap hi to kehte ho.... ki humare paas ye nahi hai woh nahi hai..... fir bhi hum se ye bhi cheen na chahte ho aap.... pehle hi hamare paas na missile hai, na bombs hain, na paisa hai aur ab aap ye bhi maang rahe ho....


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## Musalman

And the Indians say Pakistanis are brain washed. Pakistani mostly are saying yes there will be a smooth sailing while it is Indian who are of the view that no their won't be. It is actually u who want bad relationship with us not we


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## R.A.W.

Musalman said:


> And the Indians say Pakistanis are brain washed. Pakistani mostly are saying yes there will be a smooth sailing while it is Indian who are of the view that no their won't be. It is actually u who want bad relationship with us not we



Nopes just for the sake of saying yes we cant say that. India Pakistan relationship has become many sided coin you cannot ignore the other faces. There are many issues which are to be resolved


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## Omar1984

Peshwa said:


> Well lets be honest......Pakistan has ambitions in the South Asian politics and policies.....



There's no such thing as South Asian Politics and policies.

Each South Asian country has its own political system and its own policies. Neither Pakistan or India can ever change that.



Peshwa said:


> After India, Pakistan holds the most clout in the region.....



Sorry to burst your bubble, but no country in South Asia listens to either India or Pakistan, they do their own thing.



Peshwa said:


> Even if the Kashmir issue is solved, does not mean that India and Pak will be friends all of a sudden...
> There will be issues like, India's dominance/bullying in the region.



How many times have India bullied another country and got the response that she was looking for? India is no U.S.

Theres no dominance in South Asia, as I said each South Asian country does its own thing, no country asks India before making a decision.




Peshwa said:


> Pakistan's co-operation with China and allowing Gwadar.



How will that affect India? Gwadar and Pakistan's cooperation with China has nothing to do with India.



Peshwa said:


> Trade routes, Octroi/transit fees to Central Asia......



That's Pakistan's decision if to allow India transit route to Central Asia via Pakistan.

Pakistan has agreed to let a close friend like China in a transit route through Pakistan.



Peshwa said:


> Water sharing....



We already have the Indus Water Treaty. If both Pakistan and India follow the rules and regulations of the Indus Water Treaty, then there is no problem.




Peshwa said:


> Remember, our politicians benefit from war and war-mongering....unless we can get them out of the picture and make politics in South Asia clean....never can we expect peaceful co-exisitence.....



India, being the world's largest "democracy" should make politics of what the people want not politicians. You chose your own politicians.

The world's largest "democracy" should ask what the people of the disputed region want for their land like they asked the people of Junagadh, which was also a disputed region between Pakistan and India and the ruler of Junagadh signed Junagadh to Pakistan but then the people, who were mostly Hindu, were given a plebiscite and chose India hence Junagadh became part of India and today Pakistan doesn't even mention Junagadh.

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## Hyde

the thing is India never accepted Pakistan as a country before 1998. They just used to neglect Pakistan just like China doesn't take serious Taiwan..... after the Nuclear bomb attacks when Vajpayee came to Lahore that was the first moment when he accepted Pakistan.... i am not saying it was not recognised at international level but somewhere deep inside Indian leaders were never willing to accept as a Country, still today they somehow want to emerge Pakistan again with India and rule over Pakistan too.

Now after Pakistan was declared as a Nuclear Power that dream is almost no longer exists and Indians know that already but i am afraid after Kashmir issue there will be some other issue not saying about the borderline but some other sort of problems will keep them away for example westerns wouldn't want Paksitan and India to improve their relationships and prosper. They would want both countries to buy weapons and spend less on its public so these two countries never prosper and somehow they will be successful since we both countries will be running after WESTERN countries for latest technology and ammunitions for those reasons we will have to obey them so no chance of friendship with India anytime soon.

If Kashmir issue is resolved today it will take at least 15-50 years to bring peace between both nations and once that is established we can think about bright future of both respective countries. But that day aren't coming anytime soon as we already know that


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## insight-out

Good question.

India and Pakistan have conflicting interests in a number of areas. It is unfortunate and its not personal. But it is a reality that one cannot escape. I agree with Reddy in post #6. There are many issues that need to be resolved. Water and energy security are huge concerns that will require some visionary leaders with courage and big hearts on both sides if they are to be resolved. Also, both countries have global (not just regional) ambitions. 

India aspires to be a global economic and military power rivaling China. And Pakistan, owing to its very philosophy is part of a larger community of Muslim nations. At present Pakistan is preoccupied with its own problems. But if there is some degree of stability, Pakistan will certainly be called upon to help other Muslim countries. We have seen it in the past during the Six Day war of 1967 and to some extent in its support of the Bosnians in 1990s. Unfortunately, both countries believe (and there is some truth to it) that they cannot achieve there ambitions without undermining the other.


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## insight-out

Mr X said:


> ...still today they somehow want to emerge Pakistan again with India and rule over Pakistan too.



India would be glad to take Pakistan's territory, but they certainly don't want 170 million Muslims. Since one cannot be separated from the other, India is not interested in taking over Pakistan. They have two parallel options that they have been working on since 1947. 

(1) To make sure that Pakistan remains weak so that it is unable to challenge India's interests.

(2) More preferably, to break up the country such that most of the population is forced into a small territory, leaving the remaining area for India to control directly or through newly formed client states.


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## praveen

Peace never ,I personally never want peace in the region.


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## R.A.W.

insight-out said:


> India would be glad to take Pakistan's territory, but they certainly don't want 170 million Muslims. Since one cannot be separated from the other, India is not interested in taking over Pakistan. They have two parallel options that they have been working on since 1947.
> 
> (1) To make sure that Pakistan remains weak so that it is unable to challenge India's interests.
> 
> (2) More preferably, to break up the country such that most of the population is forced into a small territory, leaving the remaining area for India to control directly or through newly formed client states.



I think buddy here you are flawed... India has no interest in Pakistan's territory. Think logically what has India to gain from Pakistan's territory. Absolute nothing. So no point of having that.


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## Developereo

A number of people have mentioned water, and there are analysts who say that this century's wars will be fought over water, not oil.

I can see water becoming a major issue of contention, maybe, but I am still hopeful that we could work it out.


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## Omar1984

R.A.W. said:


> I think buddy here you are flawed... India has no interest in Pakistan's territory. *Think logically what has India to gain from Pakistan's territory.* Absolute nothing. So no point of having that.



India has been seeking a transit route to Central Asia for quite some time, and Pakistan had denied India's request for a transit route to Central Asia via Pakistan.

Have you forgotten what Indira Gandhi said that she will throw the two nation theory down the Indian Ocean then the next thing you know India army crossed international borders and invaded Lahore in 1965.

Also Nehru was disappointed that NWFP was given to Pakistan, again because Pakistan, particularly NWFP is a gateway to Central Asia.


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## R.A.W.

Omar1984 said:


> India has been seeking a transit route to Central Asia for quite some time, and Pakistan had denied India's request for a transit route to Central Asia via Pakistan.
> 
> Have you forgotten what Indira Gandhi said that she will throw the two nation theory down the Indian Ocean then the next thing you know India army crossed international borders and invaded Lahore in 1965.
> 
> Also Nehru was disappointed that NWFP was given to Pakistan, again because Pakistan, particularly NWFP is a gateway to Central Asia.



Same old statement........... Buddy do you think that risking the whole business with the rail link under Indian control in Pakistan territory is worth while when we have sea route. And how many times I have to tell you when the transportation of goods are high then sea is the cheapest route to follow because of the cost incurred. Landways are benificial when you do not have much to transport.

Indira Gandhi gave that statement after creation of Bangladesh not 1965 war and I dont want to flame but you can understand the insight of that statement..

Indian Army invaded Lahore because of Operation Gibraltor which was started by Pakistan and to release pressure from Kashmir. 

If started counting the disappointment about these things then Pakistan was disappointed with Junagadh, Hyderabad etc etc.


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## Spitfighter

righteous_fire said:


> Then Bhai! what was the Jhagra all about?
> 
> Since you are a bigger country, your *"dil should also be Bara"*!!
> *
> You have such a huge country!!! why do you hold on to that small part called Kashmir, please give it to us since we are so small  "Aap ka kya Jaaigaa"
> *
> Then we wont have a war! *EVER*




Thank you, I was getting tired of the usual evasive, self righteous nonsense on Kashmir. 

Pakistan was never interested in 'freedom' for Kashmir...(I could link a couple Kashmir banega Pakistan quotes from other members at the forum too)

- It tried to grab Kashmir by force in '47, but of course they were non state actors (?!) fighting an 'oppressive' king to 'liberate' their 'brothers' [aggressor: Pakistan (explain the tribal insurgency in Kashmir) ]

- Then in '65, once again, Pakistan was the aggressor. Since Kashmir is 'disputed territory', if India bombs a terrorist training camp somewhere in Ak, will Pakistan treat that as an act of war or not? (hint: Pakistan's Reposte doctrine

- Then in '99, 'freedom fighters' trained in high altitude warfare tried unsuccessfully to 'liberate' Kashmir for yet another time, only this time the specter of nuclear war hung over our heads. 

Pakistan could not muster the courage to accept the soldiers as its own, yet it was ready to fight a nuclear war. Nice, awesome move there, totally responsible nation like. One hand doesn't know what the others doing. perfect. Stable government? perfect. 'after kashmir' 

How can any Pakistani in his right mind consider India to be the aggressor? the remarkable restraint shown by India in '99 and last year is taken to be a sign of weakness. Pakistan with a fraction of our defense budget has initiated war thrice, yet India is the bully, we're the ones with hegemonic designs, while Pakistan's policy of strategic depth is completely palatable to everyone. Pakistan's treatment of East Pakistan doesn't come into question.

Pakistan hasn't come to terms with itself, it felt cheated back in '47 and it feels cheated to this day. I favored a reconciliation, but not anymore. Pakistan has used the Kashmiris as cannon fodder, under the guise of 'freedom' they have induced decades of suffering upon the Kashmiri people. 

If Pakistan never spawned an insurgency in Kashmir, things would have never come to this. If a resolution to the dispute is a pre-requisite to peace, then there will never be peace. 

India can live with the confrontation, as it has for 60+ years. There will never be an 'after Kashmir', unless you meant Pakistan abandoning its hopes for annexing the region. The strategic value of the region alone ensures that India will not part with an inch of territory. 

Pakistan needs to look beyond Kashmir for there to be peace, learn from your Chinese 'brothers'. After 62 years of hatred, even a miracle won't bring about a resolution, so forget about peace after.

no trust = no dice.

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## Omar1984

R.A.W. said:


> Same old statement........... Buddy do you think that risking the whole business with the rail link under Indian control in Pakistan territory is worth while when we have sea route. And how many times I have to tell you when the transportation of goods are high then sea is the cheapest route to follow because of the cost incurred. Landways are benificial when you do not have much to transport..



Its India that requested for a transit route through Pakistan to Central Asia, Middle East, and Europe. Pakistan doesn't need India.



R.A.W. said:


> Indian Army invaded Lahore because of Operation Gibraltor which was started by Pakistan and to release pressure from Kashmir. ..



Kashmir was a disputed territory in 1965 and is still a disputed territory today.

Lahore was not disputed and was even recognized by India as a part of Pakistan.

LOC is not International Borders.



R.A.W. said:


> If started counting the disappointment about these things then Pakistan was disappointed with Junagadh, Hyderabad etc etc.



After the people of Junagadh chose India in a plebisite, Pakistan did not even care about Janugadh anymore..most Pakistanis dont even know about it.

That was a disputed region before but after a plebiscite they decided to be with India and Pakistan accepted Junagadh as part of India, the same will be the case if Kashmiris choses India in a plebiscite.


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## R.A.W.

Omar1984 said:


> Its India that requested for a transit route through Pakistan to Central Asia, Middle East, and Europe. Pakistan doesn't need India.



This is meant for small trading equations. Alternatives should always be there. Dont you know that India is already at trade with rest of the world.



Omar1984 said:


> Kashmir was a disputed territory in 1965 and is still a disputed territory today.
> 
> Lahore was not disputed and was even recognized by India as a part of Pakistan.
> 
> LOC is not International Borders.



So that means we should expect no retaliation from the side of Pakistan if Indians attack the terrorist camps in Azad Kasmir or Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. So We can do anything there....



Omar1984 said:


> After the people of Junagadh chose India in a plebisite, Pakistan did not even care about Janugadh anymore..most Pakistanis dont even know about it.
> 
> That was a disputed region before but after a plebiscite they decided to be with India and Pakistan accepted Junagadh as part of India, the same will be the case if Kashmiris choses India in a plebiscite.



I think the context was NWPF. and India does not lay claim on NWPF


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## insight-out

R.A.W. said:


> I think buddy here you are flawed... India has no interest in Pakistan's territory. Think logically what has India to gain from Pakistan's territory. Absolute nothing. So no point of having that.



To suggest that India would gain nothing from Pakistan's territory is preposterous. Apart from natural resources like minerals, arable land and water, Pakistan's proximity to the oil rich Gulf is certainly of interest. Furthermore, it would provide access to Central Asia (which is also a source of energy) and onwards to Europe for trade.

Land access to the Gulf, Central Asia and Europe is a huge complement to the sea routes both for container shipping as well as oil and gas pipelines.

If you still insist that India would have nothing to gain from Pakistan's territory, I have to conclude that it is a case of sour grapes.


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## R.A.W.

insight-out said:


> To suggest that India would gain nothing from Pakistan's territory is preposterous. Apart from natural resources like minerals, arable land and water, Pakistan's proximity to the oil rich Gulf is certainly of interest. Furthermore, it would provide access to Central Asia (which is also a source of energy) and onwards to Europe for trade.



India already have alternatives of these and we already have trade of 100 billion with the middle east


insight-out said:


> Land access to the Gulf, Central Asia and Europe is a huge complement to the sea routes both for container shipping as well as oil and gas pipelines.


Tell me something how many containers can you ship at a time with the land route?
And how many containers can be shipped using a single ship in a single route?
India has already done deal with Australia for next 20 years. And we already have access to middle east for the same.



insight-out said:


> If you still insist that India would have nothing to gain from Pakistan's territory, I have to conclude that it is a case of sour grapes.



If that was the India would have easily tried it which has not been a case in past 62 years. And rest you can find the replies in my previous pose.


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## insight-out

R.A.W. said:


> India already have alternatives of these and we already have trade of 100 billion with the middle east
> 
> Tell me something how many containers can you ship at a time with the land route?
> And how many containers can be shipped using a single ship in a single route?
> India has already done deal with Australia for next 20 years. And we already have access to middle east for the same.
> 
> 
> 
> If that was the India would have easily tried it which has not been a case in past 62 years. And rest you can find the replies in my previous pose.



Its pointless to argue. No more posts from me on this subject.


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## JAI_BAJRANGI

I dont think so After Kashmir, it is smooth sailing for Pakistan/India relationship?
bec pakistan politician hv only one issue to win the election.


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## gurbakash

i28.tinypic.com/zkjs52.jpg
Do they look like prostitutes?

And how can anybody think that any professional army in the world would take a decision to have prostitutes to entertain the troops.


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## R.A.W.

JAIPUR: Army chief Gen Deepak Kapoor on Wednesday said Pakistan had violated ceasefire norms recently with an intention to push in additional
terrorists to Jammu and Kashmir before the onset of winter. ( Watch Video )

The Chief of Army Staff, however, said India's troops were quite alive to such tactics and giving befitting reply to contain intrusion to the valley.

"There has been a violation by Pakistan in the last couple of days," he told media after reviewing the Mounted Parade of 61st Cavalry at polo ground in Jaipur.

"Those violations are being used as a means by Pakistan to push in additional terrorists before the winter sets in, so that there is a degree of instability in the valley and Jammu and Kashmir. Forces are quite well versed with these tactics. They are quite alive to these tactics," Kapoor said when asked if Pakistan was violating ceasefire norms.

"We have appropriately deployed the forces and they would ensure to contain any infiltration bid further," he said.

"Let me ensure, Indian borders are extremely safe. We are fully alive to any challenges to face... Nothing worrying on borders".

Asked if western borders are under scanner, the army chief said, "As the winter is approaching, there will be defence from other side to push in infiltrators. As you would have noticed, the situation in Jammu and Kashmir is peaceful for the last 7-8 months". 

*
I think whole of India is after Pakistan right now. I think Pakistan should seriously take the 26/11. Anyways Indians dont have any personal eminity against Haffeez Saed apart from terrorism so there would be no point to name him just like that.*


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## R.A.W.

*Major among 4 armymen, 4 militants dead in separate encounters*

SRINAGAR: A Major and three other army personnel were killed in two separate long-drawn gunbattles with militants in north Kashmir during which
four terrorists, including two top Pakistani Hizbul Mujahideen commanders, were also shot dead.

While the encounter in Bandipora district ended this evening after 25 hours, the other in a forest in Baramulla district continued to rage for the third day.

Acting on information about the presence of Hizbul commanders Pasha and Mussa in a house at Boniyari village of Bandipora, Major J S Suri and a lance naik entered the premises from the roof to take the militants by surprise, official sources said.

However, the militants opened fire killing Suri and the lance naik on the spot.

Soon after, a team of Rashtriya Rifles men stormed the house to flush out the militants but came under heavy fire.

After a night-long lull, the militants resumed firing this morning, sparking another round of gunbattle in which Mussa and Pasha, both top commanders of Hizbul Mujahideen who were active in North Kashmir for a long time, were killed.

They said the encounter also left 4 armymen, including two officers, a lieutenant colonel and a major, injured.

Mussa, a former Lashkar-e-Taiba militant, and Pasha were Pakistani nationals involved in several militancy-related incidents in the state.

The encounter in a forest in Panzla area of Baramulla, which began on Monday, has so far left two armymen, including a marine commando, and two terrorists dead and three security personnel injured.


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## Righteous_Fire

R.A.W. said:


> *
> I think Pakistan should seriously take the 26/11.*


*

The Foreign Office, Interior Ministry and the Govt., all have spoken out how serious they are in this regard, time and time again. Unfortunately, it is the Indians who are not serious in this regard.

As for the people of Pakistan, we want all people involved in the 26/11 to be arrested and jailed. The stress here is on involved.



R.A.W. said:




Haffeez Saed 

Click to expand...



He is an equal citizen under the Law, entitled to a free and fair trial. The problem is, Rehman malik has asked time and time again for credible evidence against him, BUT the Indians have never presented any such thing to us.

If the Indian Govt. brings forth any such material, no one on this earth can prevent Hafiz Saeed from not seeing the full weight of the right hand of LAW.*


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## R.A.W.

righteous_fire said:


> The Foreign Office, Interior Ministry and the Govt., all have spoken out how serious they are in this regard, time and time again. Unfortunately, it is the Indians who are not serious in this regard.
> 
> As for the people of Pakistan, we want all people involved in the 26/11 to be arrested and jailed. The stress here is on involved.
> 
> 
> 
> He is an equal citizen under the Law, entitled to a free and fair trial. The problem is, Rehman malik has asked time and time again for credible evidence against him, BUT the Indians have never presented any such thing to us.
> 
> If the Indian Govt. brings forth any such material, no one on this earth can prevent Hafiz Saeed from not seeing the full weight of the right hand of LAW.



See it would be unwise to comment on the proof because that has not been shared to common masses. But what the common mass do know that the rest of the world was convinced with the same proofs.
But at the end of the day this media war started only after mumbai attacks. 

Anyways we can discuss on the relevant thread for it otherwise it would derail.

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## Righteous_Fire

R.A.W. said:


> Anyways we can discuss on the relevant thread for it otherwise it would derail.



Agreed, but you bolded out the that part so I thought you deemed it important, that is why I replied to that first


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## Awesome

*Worldview: Kashmir deal could have eased task in Afghanistan | Philadelphia Inquirer | 09/23/2009*



> When former Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf visited Philadelphia this week, I asked him about the framework for a Kashmir peace that was worked out during his tenure, and whether it could be revived in the future. "We were close," he said in an interview yesterday. "I only wish the two governments would start again. The leaders need to be open-minded and bold."
> 
> Indeed, such a peace deal could undercut jihadi groups in the region; it would make Pakistan and Afghanistan more stable.
> 
> So what makes Kashmir so important and Musharraf's near miss on peace so sad?
> 
> Since India and Pakistan achieved independence in 1947, they have fought three wars over mountainous Kashmir, a disputed territory now divided between them. For decades, Pakistan trained local jihadis to infiltrate the dividing line - known as the Line of Control - and attack Indian soldiers.
> 
> These jihadis are now linked with al-Qaeda and eager to provoke a war with India via terror attacks within its borders. The Kashmir dispute also gives the Pakistani military reason to focus more on its eastern border with India than on its border with Afghanistan.
> 
> Skeptics claim Pakistanis have little interest in ending this standoff, which provides the huge Pakistani army with its raison d'être. But, contrary to the skeptics, Musharraf sought a paradigm shift in relations with his neighbor.
> 
> "I thought we had to have peace for the sake of the entire region, and for India and Pakistan," he said. He added, "We could reap a lot of economic advantages." Once a hard-liner on Kashmir, Musharraf also came to realize that the internal Talibanization of Pakistan had become an existential threat.
> 
> So the Pakistani leader authorized secret "back channel" talks by special envoys in hotel rooms in Bangkok, Dubai, and London from 2004 to 2007. The talks got little notice in the U.S. media until a detailed article by South Asia expert Steve Coll in the New Yorker in March 2009.
> 
> The envoys worked on a framework for resolving three major boundary disputes. Musharraf said the first two - over the 20,000-foot Siachen glacier and the Sir Creek waterway between India and Pakistan - "could be solved tomorrow."
> 
> As for Kashmir, Musharraf devised a compromise for a seemingly intractable problem: India insists it will never negotiate its current Kashmir border, including the Line of Control, and Pakistan insists this is unacceptable.
> 
> "I came out with a broad outline," Musharraf said. This included gradual demilitarization of the Line of Control and Kashmiri cities; maximum self-governance on both sides of the line for the Kashmiri people; a joint governing mechanism for Kashmir, to include Pakistanis, Indians, and local Kashmiri leaders; and, most important, a porous Line of Control.
> 
> "I wanted to make the Line of Control irrelevant, to open it on six to eight places and let trade flourish," Musharraf said. That way, Pakistan could say the line was finished, and India could say it still existed.
> 
> Musharraf had hoped to implement this framework "for 15 years, and then [both sides could] revisit it and see how to move forward." He repeated: "The Line of Control would become almost irrelevant after 15 years."
> 
> For a Pakistani leader, this compromise was a daring gesture. I asked Musharraf whether the Pakistani army and Inter Services Intelligence agency would have agreed. His response: "The army and ISI would have 100 percent accepted. They are disciplined organizations."
> 
> Sadly, that hypothesis never got tested. Just when both sides were close to a deal, in the spring of 2007, Musharraf fired the chief justice of the Supreme Court (a move he still insists was constitutional). The ensuing domestic furor made it impossible to sell a Kashmir deal to his public and led to Musharraf's August 2008 resignation.
> 
> Jihadi groups linked with Kashmir then resurfaced and conducted the November 2008 terrorist outrage in Mumbai. India understandably rejects new peace talks until Pakistan cracks down convincingly on those jihadis. (Musharraf responds that the best way to undercut such groups would be to defuse the Kashmir issue.)
> 
> Pakistan's current president, Asif Ali Zardari, would like to resume Kashmir talks but may be too weak. Could we help? Musharraf said, "The United States has a role to play in pushing the process forward."
> 
> However, India is wary of any overt U.S. intervention on Kashmir. Yet the importance of a Kashmir deal for regional peace is so huge that the Obama administration should quietly encourage a renewed back channel.
> 
> Meantime, one can only mourn what might have been if Musharraf's political misstep hadn't derailed peace prospects. "Yes, it is one of my regrets," Musharraf said pensively.

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## R.A.W.

righteous_fire said:


> Agreed, but you bolded out the that part so I thought you deemed it important, that is why I replied to that first



That is my personal view.... I mean all roads to peace start with this. Dont take it otherwise but right each and every Indian has the same sentiment. All want peace but 26/11 first.

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## Awesome

AFP: 25 hurt as Kashmir police break up Eid protests



> SRINAGAR, India  Riot police in Kashmir used tear gas Monday to disperse hundreds of anti-India protesters on Eid al-Fitr, the Islamic festival marking the end of the fasting month of Ramadan.
> 
> Riot police in the summer capital Srinagar fired volleys of tear gas shells at Muslim demonstrators chanting "We want freedom" and "Allah is greater", an AFP correspondent saw.
> 
> The crowd tried to march to the residence of hardline Kashmiri separatist leader Syed Ali Geelani, who is under house arrest.
> 
> They retaliated against the police with stone pelting and over 25 people, including four policemen, were injured in ensuing clashes, a police officer said, refusing to be named.
> 
> Several thousand Muslims, including women and children, gathered to offer Eid prayers inside a ground near the "martyrs' graveyard" in Srinagar where many of those killed in the 20-year-old insurgency against Indian rule in the Muslim-majority region are buried.
> 
> The region's main moderate separatist leader, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, used the occasion to urge New Delhi to resolve the long-standing dispute over Kashmiri sovereignty.
> 
> Farooq accused New Delhi of being "stubborn" and warned that peace in the sub-continent could only be achieved by "resolving the core issue of Kashmir".
> 
> Kashmir is divided between India and Pakistan and claimed by both. The dispute has triggered two wars between the nuclear-armed South Asian rivals.
> 
> Separatist groups in Indian-controlled Kashmir are divided between those who favour accession to Pakistan and those demanding Kashmiri independence.
> 
> Late Sunday police released five senior separatists, including Aasiya Andrabi, the head of region's leading women separatist group.
> "The five were set free on the orders of the chief minister," an official spokesman said, adding it was to allow the separatists to celebrate Eid with their families.
> 
> However, senior separatist Shabir Shah continues is still in detention since being arrested in June for leading anti-India rallies.
> Indian troops shot dead two militants overnight in northern Kupwara district, bordering Pakistan-ruled Kashmir.
> 
> In southern Kulgam district, suspected militants shot dead a 24-year-old woman and wounded her 16-year-old sister, police said.
> Bloodshed in the region has declined sharply since India and Pakistan embarked on a peace process in 2004.
> 
> The process was suspended after militant attacks last November on India's financial capital Mumbai, which killed 166 people.


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## R.A.W.

fryndfire said:


> i am seriously tired of this whole whining business of IA.its about time to stop complaining and deliver some serious blows....knock out the terrorist launch pads......shell the forward PA posts....have IAF crush the camps....do anything!just stop whining and grow some balls!
> 
> i know IA is handicapped by our political leadership without a clear startegic sight.but they can always shell the forward posts and simply deny it like PA does!lets see who whines then.....



Man this can turn into a war. And for Pakistan will be forced to use nukes because they cannot fight conventionally being very true. And we are not in a state for a nuclear war right now. Even if we are able to defeat Pakistan it will be a loose loose situation for us with the blooming economic downfall. Pakistan has much less to loose right now in case of nuclear fallout even if we respond..

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## Awesome

fryndfire said:


> i am seriously tired of this whole whining business of IA.its about time to stop complaining and deliver some serious blows....knock out the terrorist launch pads......shell the forward PA posts....have IAF crush the camps....do anything!just stop whining and grow some balls!
> 
> i know IA is handicapped by our political leadership without a clear startegic sight.but they can always shell the forward posts and simply deny it like PA does!lets see who whines then.....


Maybe that's because the Indian government is lying for showmanship?


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## fryndfire

Asim Aquil said:


> AFP: 25 hurt as Kashmir police break up Eid protests



separatist supporters are getting desparate. they have lost their ground and political viability.so they tend to put up a hissy fit every now and then trying to get attention...and in the process if anyone's hurt ,blame it on security forces!no big deal....moving along.....


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## Imran Khan

fryndfire said:


> i am seriously tired of this whole whining business of IA.its about time to stop complaining and deliver some serious blows....knock out the terrorist launch pads......shell the forward PA posts....have IAF crush the camps....do anything!just stop whining and grow some balls!
> 
> i know IA is handicapped by our political leadership without a clear startegic sight.but they can always shell the forward posts and simply deny it like PA does!lets see who whines then.....



ohhhhhhhhh are we sleeping ? welcome on LOC we are ready.

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## fryndfire

Asim Aquil said:


> Maybe that's because the Indian government is lying for showmanship?



showmanship is a skill in which pakistan government and PA excells at.we rather believe in delivering the goods( or blows where needed) without much chit chat.its just our political leadership and inempt and incompetent.


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## R.A.W.

At least some one in Pakistan dared to accept the Jihandi groups against India and terrorism in India...

His concept of porous line can be discussed.


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## Peshwa

^^^ Very Interesting article Indeed!!!

Somehow Im starting to think that there's bigger powers on both sides that do not want the Kashmir issue resolved......

Asim, what do you think the repercussions would be on both sides if the leaders decide to actually implement such a plan??
Especially from the public point of view?

In the case of Pakistan, I feel this would be possible only with a Military regime as the civilian govt. have been quite weak in Pakistan.
As far as India goes, I feel the opposition parties will create a major storm.....might even lead to protests and internal unrest.......

But definitely the advantages outweight the losses!!!


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## R.A.W.

Peshwa said:


> ^^^ Very Interesting article Indeed!!!
> 
> Somehow Im starting to think that there's bigger powers on both sides that do not want the Kashmir issue resolved......
> 
> Asim, what do you think the repercussions would be on both sides if the leaders decide to actually implement such a plan??
> Especially from the public point of view?
> 
> In the case of Pakistan, I feel this would be possible only with a Military regime as the civilian govt. have been quite weak in Pakistan.
> As far as India goes, I feel the opposition parties will create a major storm.....might even lead to protests and internal unrest.......
> 
> But definitely the advantages outweight the losses!!!



But at the same time such a porous nature can be dangerous in terms of separatists and terrorists. You can not keep an eye on everyone crossing the border and on the dispersion.

Right now we have infiltration image how much times will it increase if we make borders porous

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## Awesome

R.A.W. said:


> But at the same time such a porous nature can be dangerous in terms of separatists and terrorists. You can not keep an eye on everyone crossing the border and on the dispersion.
> 
> Right now we have infiltration image how much times will it increase if we make borders porous


Pakistanis would whole heartedly support such a deal. Remember all of Musharraf's proposals were rejected by India. They were even warmly received by Kashmiris, only Indians were rejecting every single proposal.

India wants the status quo to continue, which is just not possible. 

The only and only solution to Kashmir is to liberate it, neither Pakistan's nor Indias. That is what the Kashmiris want too. Pakistanis would support that, would Indians?


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## Awesome

fryndfire said:


> separatist supporters are getting desparate. they have lost their ground and political viability.so they tend to put up a hissy fit every now and then trying to get attention...and in the process if anyone's hurt ,blame it on security forces!no big deal....moving along.....


It's funny how many times they are managing to do it... 

Kashmiris are the separatists. No other way around it.


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## advaita

Peshwa said:


> Asim, what do you think the repercussions would be on both sides if the leaders decide to actually implement such a plan??
> Especially from the public point of view?
> 
> In the case of Pakistan, I feel this would be possible only with a Military regime as the civilian govt. have been quite weak in Pakistan.
> As far as India goes, I feel the opposition parties will create a major storm.....might even lead to protests and internal unrest.......
> 
> But definitely the advantages outweight the losses!!!



Oh Oh. Peshwaji looks like you fell for a red herring.

Just my opinion though.... We can surely differ.

Still I think jis ka kaam usi ko saaje.

BTW except the third front every govt let by a National party (Congress or BJP) had exactly the same policies regarding national defence, economics. Even the 123 was discussed and passed.


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## fryndfire

Asim Aquil said:


> It's funny how many times they are managing to do it...
> 
> Kashmiris are the separatists. No other way around it.



hardly the case.kashmiris are waking up and they're chosing ballot over bullet.majority of kashmiris voted in the election.and the lone separatist leader contesting the poll lost.


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## R.A.W.

Asim Aquil said:


> Pakistanis would whole heartedly support such a deal. Remember all of Musharraf's proposals were rejected by India. They were even warmly received by Kashmiris, only Indians were rejecting every single proposal.
> 
> India wants the status quo to continue, which is just not possible.
> 
> The only and only solution to Kashmir is to liberate it, neither Pakistan's nor Indias. That is what the Kashmiris want too. Pakistanis would support that, would Indians?



If we liberate it will be more trouble because of its location..... and the way things are we will add one more poor nation to south asia and it can very well be trapped by anyone Indians, Chinese, Pakistan, Russians and not forget US. Kashmir is one location from where you can watch India, Pakistan, China all of them....


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## Awesome

fryndfire said:


> hardly the case.kashmiris are waking up and they're chosing ballot over bullet.majority of kashmiris voted in the election.and the lone separatist leader contesting the poll lost.


If you're so sure about the majority let there be a plebiscite and we'll know the truth.

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## Awesome

R.A.W. said:


> If we liberate it will be more trouble because of its location..... and the way things are we will add one more poor nation to south asia and it can very well be trapped by anyone Indians, Chinese, Pakistan, Russians and not forget US. Kashmir is one location from where you can watch India, Pakistan, China all of them....


Thats the Kashmiris concern then. Kashmiris are saying it won't be any trouble, then who are Indians to play big brother on them.

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## Peshwa

Asim Aquil said:


> Pakistanis would whole heartedly support such a deal. Remember all of Musharraf's proposals were rejected by India. They were even warmly received by Kashmiris, only Indians were rejecting every single proposal.
> 
> India wants the status quo to continue, which is just not possible.
> 
> The only and only solution to Kashmir is to liberate it, neither Pakistan's nor Indias. That is what the Kashmiris want too. Pakistanis would support that, would Indians?



Thats not true Asim....the vibe that most members give on this forum is that Kashmir should be integrated with Pakistan.....in accordance with the UN charter where the only choice is India or Pakistan.......
I think Agnostic had a bitter argument regarding the same.....
Wish I could remember which thread....its just that every India-Pak thread is also a mini Kashmir thread.....

I agree with you......the stakes are too high now for either country to give up their demands.....so feedom for Kashmiri's is the only solution.....
But does the solution mean peace and end of problem for Kashmiri's??No...a landlocked country dependednt on two giant neighbors vying for their resources etc will only bring us back to square one!!


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## R.A.W.

Asim I have been to Kashmir. Let me tell you something. No doubt there are separatists in Kashmir. But these protests are the only thing which are worthy of reporting over there. Or there are terrorist attacks. So this is the only thing that comes in news so it looks like as if whole of Kashmir is burning. An average Kashmiri has colored himself Indian by now. Kashmiris are all over India. This is the only thing that fuels the sentiments. Will you read the news which says Indians did this good thing in Kashmir. Hardly people will read it. If it is bad it sells that is the first point in Journalism.

My take on the solution is the LOC to be the international border because the people on the other side have colored themselves as Pakistanis. So it will only increase problems for India if we take whole of Kashmir.


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## Skeptic

Asim Aquil said:


> *Remember all of Musharraf's proposals were rejected by India*.



Cant be... Since they were so close to closing the deal some ground of mutual understanding must have been arrived at. atlest one of the proposal must have been resonated by India.

*India wants the status quo to continue, which is just not possible. *
It is possible but not desirable

*The only and only solution to Kashmir is to liberate it, neither Pakistan's nor Indias. That is what the Kashmiris want too.*
That is not the solution. I guess Musharraf / existing indian FO realised the same and hence working on the alternate formula. Actual solution will dissolve indian position but not to the extent of "Liberating" Kashmir. From a pragmatic prespective it will be 
a) foolish, since India is in a position of strength (control of territory)
b) Political suicide for the political party reaching any such arrangement which seriously undermines Indian stance. 
c) Will derive zero support from within India.


*Pakistanis would support that, would Indians?*
That is the moral high ground taken by most Pakistanis, whilst calling for UN pelbscite in the same breath which offers no such option.

Fact is Pakisan stands to gain everything from by such "Liberation" and India stands to loose everything. Deals are never made on such uneven grounds. We can see additional autonomy to the region, we can negotiate porus borders but outright giving up on the issue - No deal Sir.

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## fryndfire

Asim Aquil said:


> If you're so sure about the majority let there be a plebiscite and we'll know the truth.



if they didnt want to be a part of india,they wouldnt have voted in the first place,or would have chosen the separatist leaders.most separatist leaders didnt contest the poll because they knew they'd lose and the turth will be out.

but on another note, what about a plebiscite in baluchistan?


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## Awesome

Peshwa said:


> Thats not true Asim....the vibe that most members give on this forum is that Kashmir should be integrated with Pakistan.....in accordance with the UN charter where the only choice is India or Pakistan.......
> I think Agnostic had a bitter argument regarding the same.....
> Wish I could remember which thread....its just that every India-Pak thread is also a mini Kashmir thread.....
> 
> I agree with you......the stakes are too high now for either country to give up their demands.....so feedom for Kashmiri's is the only solution.....
> But does the solution mean peace and end of problem for Kashmiri's??No...a landlocked country dependednt on two giant neighbors vying for their resources etc will only bring us back to square one!!


Pakistan has always pushed for plebiscite, not simple integration. The rules of the plebiscite always clearly state that they may join India, Pakistan or choose Independence. So we're quite open to the idea of a Kashmiri independence.


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## Peshwa

advaita said:


> Oh Oh. Peshwaji looks like you fell for a red herring.
> 
> Just my opinion though.... We can surely differ.
> 
> Still I think jis ka kaam usi ko saaje.
> 
> BTW except the third front every govt let by a National party (Congress or BJP) had exactly the same policies regarding national defence, economics. Even the 123 was discussed and passed.



Difference in opinion is necessary my friend.....Gives us Indians a varied perspective on things....

To a certain extent I agree with you.....policies have remained the same accross parties, but only once the party came to power......BJP and Congress systematically use current agendas and actions of the govt to prove inefficiency and rile people up!!!


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## Awesome

fryndfire said:


> if they didnt want to be a part of india,they wouldnt have voted in the first place,or would have chosen the separatist leaders.most separatist leaders didnt contest the poll because they knew they'd lose and the turth will be out.
> 
> but on another note, what about a plebiscite in baluchistan?


Balochistan is not the topic of this discussion nor is it a disputed territory.

IF India ever knew that people would vote for India, it would be the first in line demanding a plebiscite just like India ran to the UN actually involved the UN in, and was a willing signatory to the UN resolutions calling for the plebiscite.


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## Skeptic

Asim Aquil said:


> Pakistan has always pushed for plebiscite, not simple integration. The rules of the plebiscite always clearly state that they may join India, Pakistan or choose Independence. So we're quite open to the idea of a Kashmiri independence.



No sir that is misinformation. Kindly quote the clause in UN resolution sighting freedom as an alternative.


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## R.A.W.

Asim Aquil said:


> Balochistan is not the topic of this discussion nor is it a disputed territory.
> 
> IF India ever knew that people would vote for India, it would be the first in line demanding a plebiscite just like India ran to the UN actually involved the UN in, and was a willing signatory to the UN resolutions calling for the plebiscite.



There is no point of having plebiscite when the people have already voted their government to power. This already justifies their decision. And in actual for the plebiscite to happen one would require to remove the forces and this can form the safe grounds for the insurgents to peek into kashmir and create a havoc over there.


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## Peshwa

R.A.W. said:


> But at the same time such a porous nature can be dangerous in terms of separatists and terrorists. You can not keep an eye on everyone crossing the border and on the dispersion.
> 
> Right now we have infiltration image how much times will it increase if we make borders porous



R.A.W.....

At this point, all I care about is peace, prosperity to India and access to C.A.R...
The idea suggested is for "relative peace".....does not mean that the two powers will let go of the struggle....
I mean in the next 15 years, if the proposed is actually done, Kashmir will be a demilatarized zone, so chances are that RAW and ISI will play their nasty games to control the Kashmiri's and bring them into their side of the fence....

I dont see this as a parmanent solution at all......


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## R.A.W.

Peshwa said:


> R.A.W.....
> 
> At this point, all I care about is peace, prosperity to India and access to C.A.R...
> The idea suggested is for "relative peace".....does not mean that the two powers will let go of the struggle....
> I mean in the next 15 years, if the proposed is actually done, Kashmir will be a demilatarized zone, so chances are that RAW and ISI will play their nasty games to control the Kashmiri's and bring them into their side of the fence....
> 
> I dont see this as a parmanent solution at all......



And in that nasty game kashmiris will suffer. See simply as this thing. If we are to invest in Kashmir which would bring jobs for Kashmiris which will bring Kashmiris closer to us. But this would be ultimately threat to Pakistan. So they will try their level best that we are not able to do it. and things can get dirty. Same applies vice versa. With porous borders and no military it will become a very dirty game with Indians and pakistanis roaming freely between Kashmiris.


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## fryndfire

Asim Aquil said:


> Balochistan is not the topic of this discussion nor is it a disputed territory.
> 
> IF India ever knew that people would vote for India, it would be the first in line demanding a plebiscite just like India ran to the UN actually involved the UN in, and was a willing signatory to the UN resolutions calling for the plebiscite.



blame it on our short sighted ,strategically clueless political leadership!the whole kashmir situation wouldnt be there if we showed more balls in 47,65 and 71. the tashkent treaty and shimla treaty were couple of biggest blunders of indian political history.the whole bringing the UN in on kashmir was another show of the lack of character and resolve in our political leadership.

btw, balochs might wanna disagree whether their teerritory is disputed or not.but yeah this isnt the topic of the thread and i will refrain from making any further comments on this.


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## Skeptic

Asim Aquil said:


> Pakistan has always pushed for plebiscite, not simple integration. The rules of the plebiscite always clearly state that they may join India, Pakistan or choose Independence. So we're quite open to the idea of a Kashmiri independence.



As I mentioned - pushing for freedom and talking of Plebiscite in the same breath.
Refer to this: http://www.un.org/french/documents/sc/res/1948/s48r47f.pdf
These are original vnd scanned copies of the resolution from UN website unlike many doctored versions circulating on the net. It clearly mentions 


> to create proper conditions for a free and impartial plebiscie to decide whether state of jammu and Kashmir is to accede to India or Pakistan"



So lay low on the moral Highs of Promoting Freedom via Plebiscite. Infact this is treason to Kashmiris - promoting this falsehood of freedom via UN resolution. It has been used as a tool in past and continues to be so. And you Sir, being the administrator and having "Sapere aude!" under your name are sold to this misinformation.

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## Storm Force

I once read that For India to give way the whole of Kashmir away was like a daggar to its heart. 

Give away the massive strategic advantage and have both china & pakistan right on top looking down into indian plains from great height. 

Lose the control of water from himlayers indian sub continent life line

and the horrendus humilation internationally for losing huge land to their neighbour. 

Lose Kashmir and india will fall like a deck of cards. 

No sane indian will ever let this come even close regardless of whose involved.


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## advaita

Asim Aquil said:


> Thats the Kashmiris concern then. Kashmiris are saying it won't be any trouble, then who are Indians to play big brother on them.



Sir, Kashmiris are not saying this. Kashmiris are voting in Indian elections every 5 years at about the national average rates. They know they are Indian citizens. Its only a handful of urbanised gentlemen that want to be Ummah ki puunch.

You see too much money and nothing better to do.

You perhaps dont know that even without any worthwhile industry Kashmiri urbans are better then the average Indians.

Just a day or two back there has been an attack by Kasab ke bhais where only Kashmiri rural folk were killed.

In fact the fatalities are not amongst the soldiers and Hindus are just not there. Its only the rural folk getting killed and the only reason IA is finding it difficult to protect them is because the terrain is so goddamn difficult (quite unlike the plains of Punjab).

Aap ko bachane hain to apne musalmanon ko bacaho, hamare wale tum logon ko sir dard samajte hain.


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## advaita

Peshwa said:


> Difference in opinion is necessary my friend.....Gives us Indians a varied perspective on things....
> 
> To a certain extent I agree with you.....policies have remained the same accross parties, but only once the party came to power......BJP and Congress systematically use current agendas and actions of the govt to prove inefficiency and rile people up!!!



Bro, I am working in Constrution in NCR region. A lot of labour force is reasonably well organised through their Contractors or Sub-Contractors. Also well over 70% of the unskilled labour (not the masons/welders/steel workers/JCB operators) are Bangla speaking. If you know what I mean.

What India lacks is not the political leadership. What we lack is the continuity of civil action/demand for rights/cooperative actions at grass root levels due to which our poors from Bolangir/Chattisgarh/Telangana cannot get to the opportunities that are there. This can only be brought about by right of centre policies especially in regard to SMEs and Labour contracts. Our governments are just like any other govt. They are not the limiting factor.

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## sallukhan

I see a ban comming


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## Kharian_Beast

R.A.W. said:


> Man this can turn into a war. And for Pakistan will be forced to use nukes because they cannot fight conventionally being very true. And we are not in a state for a nuclear war right now. Even if we are able to defeat Pakistan it will be a loose loose situation for us with the blooming economic downfall. Pakistan has much less to loose right now in case of nuclear fallout even if we respond..



Pakistan is capable of ripping the heart and spine of India's Mig 21 and T-72 reliant military overnight. I hope India doesn't provoke Pakistan into a war.... a nation with less to lose has more to gain. 

Pay back for 1971 is right around the corner so long as India continues on the path of aggressive posturing. Many analysts have also stated that eventually Pakistan will get Kashmir so long as freedom fighters have the support of the local population and Pakistan. What the Indian border security or military has to say has nothing to do with the realities of this conflict...their borders can be tighter than a **** ****** but like the article in this thread proves, Indians are still losing troops in Kashmir and it has nothing to do with Pakistan sending in people.


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## R.A.W.

Kharian_Beast said:


> Pakistan is capable of ripping the heart and spine of India's Mig 21 and T-72 reliant military overnight. I hope India doesn't provoke Pakistan into a war.... a nation with less to lose has more to gain.
> 
> Pay back for 1971 is right around the corner so long as India continues on the path of aggressive posturing. Many analysts have also stated that eventually Pakistan will get Kashmir so long as freedom fighters have the support of the local population and Pakistan. What the Indian border security or military has to say has nothing to do with the realities of this conflict...their borders can be tighter than a **** ****** but like the article in this thread proves, Indians are still losing troops in Kashmir and it has nothing to do with Pakistan sending in people.



Sir you forgot Su30 and MRCA with MIg 21.. 

And 1971 was your fault. Your failure. We just capitalized....

And its good that you still dream Pakistan will get support from Kashmiris as they have thought before operation gibraltor which was brought into light by Kashmiris. By the only 2 things happen Kashmir either protests by separatists or bomb blast by terrorist. And this is the only thing left there to report and you again make up a perception that whole of Kashmir is with you... Again overestimation as did in 1965 and 1971. I think Indian agencies are doing good to spread the rumor.


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## bandit

> Betwa Sharma
> United Nations, Sep 24 (PTI) In a diplomatic embarrassment to India, maverick Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi says Kashmir should be an "independent state" and that countries like India should not be on board any expanded UN Security Council.
> "Kashmir should be an independent state, not Indian, not Pakistani. We should end this conflict. It should be a Ba''athist state between India and Pakistan," the Libyan leader said raising the Kashmir issue in his maiden address to the UN General Assembly yesterday.
> Instead of his allotted 15 minutes, Gaddafi Donned in long brown robes and a black hat, spoke for nearly 100 minutes during which he slammed both the US and the United Nations, and described the Security Council as the terrorist council.
> Gaddafi opposed the expansion of the UN Security Council by including countries like India which, he said, would spur a "competition" with nations like Pakistan wanting to get in.
> In his first speech to the General Assembly, he said opening the doors of the UNSC for big powers would "add more poverty, more injustice, more tension at the world level".
> "There would be high competition between Italy, Germany, Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Philippines, Japan, Argentina, Brazil...," Gaddafi said.
> Stressing that there must be equality among member states, he noted that since India and Pakistan were both nuclear powers, if India had a seat then Pakistan would want one as well.
> "We reject having more seats," said the Libyan leader since it would give "rise to more superpowers, crush the small people."
> He also called the Security Council a "council of terror," and demanded a compensation of USD 7.77 trillion for African nations for centuries of colonisation.
> 
> Kashmir should be independent state: Gaddafi - &#160;International News ? News ? MSN India



Now the guy wants his say as well....interesting. The guy chewed out delegates for over 90 minutes speaking on everythin under the sky. Seem to remember Reagsan once called him a mad dog.


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## hardcore

the world needed his analysis very badly after a such a long time' rightly said by the reporter 
lol


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## Ruag

Seriously... how can a mad clown "embarrass" the Republic of India?

These news outlets nowadays write anything so as to get the attention of viewers.


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## EjazR

Hyderabad army major martyred in Kashmir

HYDERABAD: Major J Suresh Suri, a braveheart from Hyderabad, laid down his life fighting terrorists in a fierce encounter at Baniyari- Sumbal village, 30 km from Bandipora, in North Kashmir on Tuesday.

A resident of Vani Nagar in Malkajgiri, the 30-year-old Major is survived by his wife Pallavi. They were married in August last year. Pallavi, who is studying in Mumbai, has gone to Kashmir a few days ago.

*Acting on a tip off that terrorists were taking shelter at a house near Ajas in the region, 13 Rashtriya Rifles and police had cordoned off the area last evening, IGP (Kashmir) Farooq Ahmed told Express.*

Defence spokesman Lt Colonel JS Brar said Suri led a team of the Rashtriya Rifles to the house. It is a very congested area and our teams took a boat and crossed the Jhelum to reach the militants hideout which is in a bylane, he explained.

Suri was the first officer to storm into the house. In the battle that followed, Major Suri killed an ultra. He was a brave officer. He died in a hand-to-hand combat. A jawan, Lance Naik Kushal Singh, also died, Farooq Ahmed said.

*Three other Army officers were injured in the gunbattle which ended on Wednesday evening with the death of two terrorists, including Hizbul Mujahideen commander Pasha and Lashkar-e-Toiba member Moosa. Both were from Pakistan. Pasha carried a reward of Rs 10 lakh on his head. Meanwhile, another encounter in a forest in Baramulla left two Armymen and two terrorists dead.*


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## praveen

he is from Malkajgiri?


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## FireFighter

EjazR



Being a Muslim do you think these Indian Army personal are actually ''martyrs"?


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## R.A.W.

FireFighter said:


> EjazR
> 
> 
> 
> Being a Muslim do you think these Indian Army personal are actually ''martyrs"?



In India you are not a Muslim or a Hindu. When you die... you die for India.. *You are an Indian when your body is covered with Tiranga then being a Muslim or Hindu.*

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## Developereo

JAI_BAJRANGI said:


> I dont think so After Kashmir, it is smooth sailing for Pakistan/India relationship?
> bec pakistan politician hv only one issue to win the election.



This is the Indian media spin, but it is not even remotely true.

Even looking at this poll, most Pakistanis have a positive view of India and seem hopeful. It is the Indians who seem mired in an antagonistic mindset due to a lifetime of anti-Pakistan propaganda.


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## manishmaithani

Developereo said:


> This is the Indian media spin, but it is not even remotely true.
> 
> Even looking at this poll, most Pakistanis have a positive view of India and seem hopeful. It is the Indians who seem mired in an antagonistic mindset due to a lifetime of anti-Pakistan propaganda.



Some years ago i heard that Atal bihari told to Pakistan govt. to change sylabus of Pakistan Govt. schools because your schooling is anti hindu's. I am not aware of truth, you know better.

So after kashmir Pak still be muslim country and hindu's will be on majority in secular india.

Pakistan was no where in indian peoples mindset truly, because we were competing with china on economic growth after kargil, done by Pakistan favourate Genaral Parvej musharaf.

and Now 26/11
Please make your views.


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## booo

RIP Major. I am proud of you. Respects.


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## Developereo

manishmaithani said:


> Some years ago i heard that Atal bihari told to Pakistan govt. to change sylabus of Pakistan Govt. schools because your schooling is anti hindu's. I am not aware of truth, you know better.



There was no anti-Hindu syllabus when I went to school in Pakistan, but it may have changed in the last two decades; I don't know.

If there is anti-Hindu, or anti-anything propaganda in Pakistani schools, it should be removed. Not because India asks for it, but for the sake of our own Hindu citizens, and because we should raise an open-minded, tolerant generation. Religious extremism kills more Muslims than non-Muslims even within Pakistan, so this is something we need to fix for our own sake.

Having said that, I have been told by Indian Hindus that in some (not all) Indian states, the curriculum paints India's Islamic history negatively and promotes a negative perception of Islam. This was during the BJP government and, if still true, that should also change.



manishmaithani said:


> Pakistan was no where in indian peoples mindset truly



I disagree; the Indian media constantly keeps anti-Pakistan propaganda in the forefront. The poll here is itself evidence of the deep-seated Indian media brainwashing against Pakistan.



manishmaithani said:


> and Now 26/11



And we believe India is involved in Balochistan and elsewhere. Both sides are currently involved in nefarious activities, but that doesn't dampen our enthusiasm for possible future reconciliation.


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## Spring Onion

They also call Gandhi as martyr. Their understanding is different than ours.


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## TaimiKhan

Jana said:


> They also call Gandhi as martyr. Their understanding is different than ours.


 
Well said, martyr is just a word, but the concept of calling anyone a martyr is different as per country & religion.


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## paritosh

Jana said:


> They also call Gandhi as martyr. Their understanding is different than ours.



what do you people think about Gandhi?


I guess a man should be remembered for his deeds more than the way he passes on.
May he Ri.p.


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## blueoval79

Developereo said:


> There was no anti-Hindu syllabus when I went to school in Pakistan, but it may have changed in the last two decades; I don't know.



Please Read this: Year 2002.....

http://www.sdpi.org/whats_new/reporton/State of Curr&TextBooks.pdf




Developereo said:


> Having said that, I have been told by Indian Hindus that in some (not all) Indian states, the curriculum paints India's Islamic history negatively and promotes a negative perception of Islam. This was during the BJP government and, if still true, that should also change.



Well I remember reading those History Books....All I could read was How good Akbar Was...and How Bad Genghis Khan was.... Mogul Architecture and Literary works are respected and highly praised on in the books I read... Though I know there are some Hardliner Run Schools that twist the books the way they want. 



Developereo said:


> I disagree; the Indian media constantly keeps anti-Pakistan propaganda in the forefront. The poll here is itself evidence of the deep-seated Indian media brainwashing against Pakistan.


There are select media outlets who use Anti Pakistan Sentiment to earn money ...but the number is limited ..and they have very less viewership. This poll means nothing...as most of the Pakistani posters would love to show Pakistani Mindset in good light....remember same posters want to Nuke India at the first possible instance...



Developereo said:


> And we believe India is involved in Balochistan and elsewhere. Both sides are currently involved in nefarious activities, but that doesn't dampen our enthusiasm for possible future reconciliation.



Well some one said..."Jo dard hai tumhara..apna bhi wahi Gham hai...Aao ki gale mil lain ...Jo tum ho wahi hum hain"....

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## jehangirhaider

So Freedom fighters are still struggling in occupied Kashmir.


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## blueoval79

jehangirhaider said:


> So Freedom fighters are still struggling in occupied Kashmir.



Correction....Terrorists are getting killed..by India Army In Indian Kashmir.....


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## DaRk WaVe

paritosh said:


> what do you people think about Gandhi?
> .



The only Indian leader, i respect...

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## brahmastra

jehangirhaider said:


> So Freedom fighters are still struggling in occupied Kashmir.



Let me rephrase it
"Foreign sponsored terrorists are still struggling in Kashmir. "

Yes, they are struggling and they will struggle till India got the sons like Major J Suresh Suri. And India got huge number of Major Suri.


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## eastwatch

blueoval79 said:


> Correction....Terrorists are getting killed..by India Army In Indian Kashmir.....


By the definition introduced recently by the USA the freedom fighters are called terrorists by the govt that occupies their land. But, the local population regard them as Mujahedin or freedom fighters. Which is correct? India will see more of its martyres unless it releases Kashmir. It will remain a pain in India's ***.

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## blueoval79

eastwatch said:


> By the definition introduced recently by the USA the freedom fighters are called terrorists by the govt that occupies their land. But, the local population regard them as Mujahedin or freedom fighters. Which is correct? India will see more of its martyres unless it releases Kashmir. It will remain a pain in India's ***.



So According to you...LTTE was a Liberation force...so they should ba left to Kill.....Khalistani terrorists should be called Freedom Fighters...and LET and HM...should be called Freedom fighters....this means...BLA should b termed as Freedom fighters...and TTP should be called Freedom Fighters as well...


Stop trolling Now....


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## jehangirhaider

> Correction....Terrorists are getting killed..by India Army In Indian Kashmir.....



You and your Government correct your self, Kashmir is disputed territory. People are struggling against Gov of India.

People who are fighting against Indian army in Kashmir are not terrorist, they are freedom fighters. 

India always wept about terrorism, to suppress the innocent people of occupied Kashmir.

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## blueoval79

jehangirhaider said:


> You and your Government correct your self, Kashmir is disputed territory. People are struggling against Gov of India.
> 
> People who are fighting against Indian army in Kashmir are not terrorist, they are freedom fighters.
> 
> India always wept about terrorism, to suppress the innocent people of occupied Kashmir.



Well if Pakistan wants to believe so...please continue to do that.....
The fact is ....Kashmir has a Democratically Elected Government from Poeple amongst them....not lik *** where the President is an Ex Pakistani army man....

Now continue with your ranting.....jihad.....700000 Army men In kashmir....and All that Crap....


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## DaRk WaVe

blueoval79 said:


> Well if Pakistan wants to believe so...please continue to do that.....
> The fact is ....Kashmir has a Democratically Elected Government from Poeple amongst them....not lik *** where the President is an Ex Pakistani army man....
> 
> Now continue with your ranting.....jihad.....700000 Army men In kashmir....and All that Crap....



Blue boy turn ur Binoculars towards me 

anyways Its a fact that freedom fighters for one are terrorists for others, u have doubt about it???
Don't tell me that 7,00,000 troops there are on picnic & there are no missing persons there


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## jehangirhaider

> Well if Pakistan wants to believe so...please continue to do that.....
> The fact is ....Kashmir has a Democratically Elected Government from Poeple amongst them....not lik *** where the President is an Ex Pakistani army man....
> 
> Now continue with your ranting.....jihad.....700000 Army men In kashmir....and All that Crap....



What ever you say crap or something else, Kashmir is disputed territory , and will remain as long as it is not resolved either by force or by talks.No country either Pakistan or India is going to loose it.

For us it is not a piece of land but it is our jugular vain , it is the matter of people of Kashmir, if some one is fair enough then resolve it according to resolutions of UN(referendum). Another important point water, all water resources start from Kashmir, these days water crises in Chenab river is clear example of this. Kashmir must be resolved according to UN resolutions otherwise may be 

one day when thirsty people of Pakistan will march toward the Kashmir to make the water a strong cause for liberation of Kashmir along with other many reasons . Because without water no one can survive.


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## blueoval79

emo_girl said:


> Blue boy turn ur Binoculars towards me
> 
> anyways Its a fact that freedom fighters for one are terrorists for others, u have doubt about it???
> Don't tell me that 7,00,000 troops there are on picnic & there are no missing persons there



Well all eyes and ears on you lady...

I am not sure from where this figure of 700000 Army men Came into existence...As Far As I know...the there is a Combination of CRPF(Central reserve Police Force) ...and Jammu and Kashmir Armed Police doing their duty in Kashmir......Backed by BSF and Army on the Border....

Does anyone have an authentic Source of this figure....because I have been reading this for yrs now....and the number has not changed a bit...come what may.......it was 700000 in 2002.....700000 in 2005.....700000 in 2007 ...and 700000 in 2009........


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## Spring Onion

paritosh said:


> what do you people think about Gandhi?
> 
> 
> I guess a man should be remembered for his deeds more than the way he passes on.
> May he Ri.p.



Our founder father Jinnah had a great regard for him so do we  thats what we think about Gandhi.

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## Spring Onion

blueoval79 said:


> Well if Pakistan wants to believe so...please continue to do that.....
> The fact is ....Kashmir has a Democratically Elected Government from Poeple amongst them....not lik *** where the President is an Ex Pakistani army man....
> 
> Now continue with your ranting.....jihad.....700000 Army men In kashmir....and All that Crap....



The fact is Indian army is an occupying force of an invader country in Held Kashmir and Indian army is killing innocent Kashmiris.

Period now call your barbaric soldiers as martyrd or whatever that is not going to change the fact that India is killing Kashmiris.

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## dabong1

The ones i see as being martyred are the freedom fighters Pasha and and Moosa......may allah give them heaven.


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## blueoval79

Jana said:


> The fact is Indian army is an occupying force of an invader country in Held Kashmir and Indian army is killing innocent Kashmiris.
> 
> Period now call your barbaric soldiers as martyrd or whatever that is not going to change the fact that India is killing Kashmiris.



Time for Some history lesson....

On 22 October 1947 some parts of the State were invaded by unruly tribal warriors, killing and pillaging on their way to Srinagar, the Maharaja's forces were not able to defend the State territory.

The Maharaja had two choices: either let these tribesmen run over the country and destroy everything or seek help from India - he chose the later.

The Maharaja could not have got help from the government of Pakistan as they betrayed his trust; and despite the Standstill Agreement with the Maharaja, they stopped all the necessary supplies to the State and managed the tribal invasion to punish the Maharaja for not yielding to the demands of the Pakistani rulers who wanted State's accession to Pakistan.

The Maharaja requested help from India, and signed an accession treaty on 26th October 1947, which was 'provisionally' accepted by the government of India. In line with the request of the Maharaja the Indian forces landed in Srinagar on 27th October 1947. Their primary purpose was to save the State from the invaders; and protect 'life', 'liberty' and 'property'.


And yes Indian army is Killing some innocent looking Kashmiris...who have managed to infiltrate from Pakistan...carrying Arms and ammunition...and love to lob grenades and shower bullets ..........

You know what they are called in your Country....TTP...and In My Country....LET and HUM.......


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## DaRk WaVe

blueoval79 said:


> Well all eyes and ears on you lady...
> 
> I am not sure from where this figure of 700000 Army men Came into existence...As Far As I know...the there is a Combination of CRPF(Central reserve Police Force) ...and Jammu and Kashmir Armed Police doing their duty in Kashmir......Backed by BSF and Army on the Border....
> 
> Does anyone have an authentic Source of this figure....because I have been reading this for yrs now....and the number has not changed a bit...come what may.......it was 700000 in 2002.....700000 in 2005.....700000 in 2007 ...and 700000 in 2009........



If i m not wrong this Figure was given by Amnesty International but i could not find the link...
how many are there according to u?
Don't tell me Kashmirs are not been killed & raped by Indians
Freedom Fighter for one is Terrorist for other..


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## dabong1

blueoval79 said:


> not like *** where the President is an Ex Pakistani army man....



Which president are you talikng about?.....his name would be helpful


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## King Julien

dabong1 said:


> The ones i see as being martyred are the freedom fighters Pasha and and Moosa......may allah give them heaven.



God will decide whether to punish or forgive them... however its our duty to fix their appointment with GOD..

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## Spring Onion

dabong1 said:


> Which president are you talikng about?.....his name would be helpful



I think he is talking about Musharraf


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## DaRk WaVe

blueoval79 said:


> Time for Some history lesson....
> 
> On 22 October 1947 some parts of the State were invaded by unruly tribal warriors, killing and pillaging on their way to Srinagar, the Maharaja's forces were not able to defend the State territory.
> 
> The Maharaja had two choices: either let these tribesmen run over the country and destroy everything or seek help from India - he chose the later.
> 
> The Maharaja could not have got help from the government of Pakistan as they betrayed his trust; and despite the Standstill Agreement with the Maharaja, they stopped all the necessary supplies to the State and managed the tribal invasion to punish the Maharaja for not yielding to the demands of the Pakistani rulers who wanted State's accession to Pakistan.
> 
> The Maharaja requested help from India, and signed an accession treaty on 26th October 1947, which was 'provisionally' accepted by the government of India. In line with the request of the Maharaja the Indian forces landed in Srinagar on 27th October 1947. Their primary purpose was to save the State from the invaders; and protect 'life', 'liberty' and 'property'.
> 
> 
> And yes Indian army is Killing some innocent looking Kashmiris...who have managed to infiltrate from Pakistan...carrying Arms and ammunition...and love to lob grenades and shower bullets ..........
> 
> You know what they are called in your Country....TTP...and In My Country....LET and HUM.......



hey now listen turn ur binoculars again towards me, give complete history, first there were amendments in the Real Radcliff Award by Lord Mountbatten & Gurdaspur & Amritsar were given to India & a road was built to pave way for troop deployment & Tribals came in when there were Muslim Massacres, there were people who were told to gather because they will be transported to Pakistan but all of them were executed....

is NWFP a disputed territory???? simply say Yes or No, okk


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## blueoval79

emo_girl said:


> If i m not wrong this Figure was given by Amnesty International but i could not find the link...
> how many are there according to u?
> Don't tell me Kashmirs are not been killed & raped by Indians
> Freedom Fighter for one is Terrorist for other..



Ok lets see....

I give the figures...you add them Up.....


1. There are 77 CRPF battalions in J&K, of which 62 arein Kashmir. (One Battalion = 1100 Men)

2. There are 18 Battalions of Jammu and Kashmir Armed Police.(One Battalion = 1100 Men)

3. There are 30 Army battalions in Kashmir, or around 30,000 men.


Please add them up.....

And now you will ask for some link for Source of Information..... which I can provide...

CRPF begins partial rollback from Jammu and Kashmir - dnaindia.com

'CRPF, BSF must shed fatigues' - India - NEWS - The Times of India

Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - 30 CRPF companies withdrawn, 5 Police battalions to be raised: DGP

The links tell different news but the numbers are crucial.


But can you provide me a link of news item " Amnesty International Report" that you claim Gives this figure of 700000........


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## blueoval79

emo_girl said:


> hey now listen turn ur binoculars again towards me, give complete history, first there were amendments in the Real Radcliff Award by Lord Mountbatten & Gurdaspur & Amritsar were given to India & a road was built to pave way for troop deployment & Tribals came in when there were Muslim Massacres, there were people who were told to gather because they will be transported to Pakistan but all of them were executed....
> 
> is NWFP a disputed territory???? simply say Yes or No, okk



Any news item on history that claims ..Muslims were killed in Kashmir in 1947....that provoked Pakistan to send ....Gurillahs.......


A terrorist is a terrorist...your or mine....he deserves to be killed.....


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## DaRk WaVe

blueoval79 said:


> Ok lets see....
> 
> I give the figures...you add them Up.....
> 
> 
> 1. There are 77 CRPF battalions in J&K, of which 62 arein Kashmir. (One Battalion = 1100 Men)
> 
> 2. There are 18 Battalions of Jammu and Kashmir Armed Police.(One Battalion = 1100 Men)
> 
> 3. There are 30 Army battalions in Kashmir, or around 30,000 men.
> 
> 
> Please add them up.....
> 
> And now you will ask for some link for Source of Information..... which I can provide...
> 
> CRPF begins partial rollback from Jammu and Kashmir - dnaindia.com
> 
> 'CRPF, BSF must shed fatigues' - India - NEWS - The Times of India
> 
> Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - 30 CRPF companies withdrawn, 5 Police battalions to be raised: DGP
> 
> The links tell different news but the numbers are crucial.
> 
> 
> But can you provide me a link of news item " Amnesty International Report" that you claim Gives this figure of 700000........



This comes out to be 202,700 
Links are all Indian & by the way Indians are not that fools that they will give the actual number of troops...
I could not find that link 
But anyways 202,700 is impossible...


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## King Julien

emo_girl said:


> Blue boy turn ur Binoculars towards me
> 
> anyways Its a fact that freedom fighters for one are terrorists for others, u have doubt about it???
> *Don't tell me that 7,00,000 troops there are on picnic & there are no missing persons there*



troops are for counter-insurgency madam... why would we deploy 7,00,000 troops to counter unarmed civilians?...
I like the way you pretend to be dumb.


----------



## blueoval79

emo_girl said:


> This comes out to be 202,700
> Links are all Indian & by the way Indians are not that fools that they will give the actual number of troops...
> I could not find that link
> But anyways 202,700 is impossible...



Well its up to you to trust anyone...I have some facts....and I have shared them with you....All these news item discuss...Movement or other Activities related to Army and CRPF........so they could not lie.....rest is on you....believe what you want to...

If you are skeptic...add 50&#37; to the figure you got...considering that Indians are hiding 50% troops......

I am still waiting for Amnesty international Report Claiming 700000 Armymen deployed in Kashmir.


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## DaRk WaVe

King Julien said:


> troops are for counter-insurgency madam... why would we deploy 7,00,000 troops to counter unarmed civilians?...
> I like the way you pretend to be dumb.



 
Thank u...
But u took wrong meaning...
My point was that 7,00,000 troops are doing Bad Deeds there & there will be some local uprising against the troops, but here again Terrorist for one is Freedom fighter for another


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## Comet

R.A.W. said:


> In India you are not a Muslim or a Hindu. When you die... you die for India.. *You are an Indian when your body is covered with Tiranga then being a Muslim or Hindu.*



And what do you do then? Burn them or dig grave for them?

The difference of religion will remain there, always!

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## TaimiKhan

blueoval79 said:


> A terrorist is a terrorist...your or mine....he deserves to be killed.....



Any idea who is a terrorist ?? Why is someone called a terrorist ?? Any idea what terrorism means ?? 

Kindly do some research to clear up the concept of a terrorist or terrorism, don't be like illiterate people who use words without knowing what they mean. 

As per your above statement, the Indian soldiers who are terrorizing the Indian Occupied Kashmiri's through raping them, then killing them, killing people in fake encounters, torturing people can clearly be classified as terrorist, so i think the Indian soldiers should be killed too. Shouldn't they be ??

Don't come up with a BS kind of statement or explanation justifying the terrorism by Indian soldiers as i do believe you can think better then that or the statements you have posted above.

Just for your ready reference do read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist


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## DaRk WaVe

blueoval79 said:


> Any news item on history that claims ..Muslims were killed in Kashmir in 1947....that provoked Pakistan to send ....Gurillahs.......
> 
> A terrorist is a terrorist...your or mine....he deserves to be killed.....



There is no Comparison between NWFP insurgency & Kashmir, PA is not committing any crimes against people in Waffen SS style, PA has cleaned that area & locals are happy with them, this was a BS comparison Blue boy...

Here it comes, have a look..
*A bloody account of mass massacres*
I m quoting 1947 part

1947
August 26: In June 1947, people of Poonch had launched a no-tax campaign against the heavy taxation of Maharaja. To curb the agitation, Maharaja Hari Singh, the last Dogra ruler of the state, ordered the use of brute military force. On August 26 the protesters were confronted by the Dogra-armed forces. The Dogra troops opened bran-gun fire on the huge crowd of 5,000 civilians, martyring and wounding hundreds of them.

October-November: Maharaja Hari Singh fled from Srinagar to Jammu on October 26th 1947, as the liberation activists were poised in Srinagar's suburbs to capture the city. On reaching Jammu, he issued orders to his troops and police besides the Hindu extremist groups, to kill Muslims found anywhere. The Muslims were asked to assemble in parade ground in Jammu so that they would be driven to Pakistan in lorries. While on their way, on October 20, 1947, eight thousand Muslims were massacred at Malatank Jammu. On October 22, 1947 at least 14000 Muslims were massacred at Saniya Jammu and 15,000 Muslims were gunned down near the bridge at Akhnoor.

On November 5 and 6, 1947, more than 100 lories, loaded with women, children and old men were taken into the wilderness of Kuthua forests. Hindu extremists and armed gangs were let loose on these innocent people and an unparallel butchery was perpetrated, killing thousands of them. Women were raped, molested and their valuables looted. All these bloodsheds were taking place in full view of the Indian army, which had by that time occupied a major part of the state. In another act of butchery, a large gathering of 25000 Muslims, in Miran Sahib and Ranbir Singhpora, were machine-gunned.

During migration to Pakistan in 1947, nearly 300,000 people were massacred in cold
British daily "the London Times" wrote on October 10, 1947 in a report from its special correspondent in India that the Maharaja, under his own supervision, got assassinated 237,000 Muslims, using military forces in Jammu area. The editor of "Statesman" Ian Stephen, in his book "Horned Moon" wrote that till the end of autumn 1947, more than 200,000 Muslims were assassinated.

Right from 1947, the fury of mass killings is going on unabated. Kashmiris suffered massacres in 1965 and 1971. Since 1989, India increased its acts of brutalities and people were killed in mass groups. 

A bloody account of mass massacres | Kashmir Media Service


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## blueoval79

emo_girl said:


> Thank u...
> But u took wrong meaning...
> My point was that 7,00,000 troops are doing Bad Deeds there & there will be some local uprising against the troops, but here again Terrorist for one is Freedom fighter for another



Lady you just calculated... there are less than 300000 Security Personal in Kashmir.....

So please I request you to stop repeating this 700000 or provide the link for Amnesty International report Claiming 700000 Army men in Kashmir...

Anyhow the fact is that many parts of the State have no complaints from the presence of the Indian army. For example, people of Gilgit and Baltistan have no problem with the Indian army. Leaders from Gilgit and Baltistan on the topic have no problem from the Indian army. However their problem is related to the presence of the Pakistan army in Gilgit and Baltistan and many regard it as an army of occupation.

Similarly people of Ladakh have no problem with the presence of the Indian army in Jammu and Kashmir. People from Jammu, and they seem to have no serious issue with the presence of the Indian army. However they had a serious problem with the presence of militants, many of them non Kashmiris, in parts of the Jammu region and wanted the Indian army to root them out.

Majority of people of Pakistani Administered Kashmir criticise what their brothers and sisters have to endure in the Valley, but have no direct problem with the presence of the Indian army (cross border skirmishes and firing created problems for the people, but that generally happened when there was infiltration taking place or when there was tension on the LOC which is manned by the Pakistan army from the other side).

That leaves us with the Valley of Kashmir, main part of the State in many ways; and which has faced wrath of the Indian army since 1989. The Indian army's relationship with the Valley has been different from other areas of the State; hence majority of the people, especially in 1990s regarded the Indian army as 'army of occupation'.


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## Aslan

blueoval79 said:


> Any news item on history that claims ..Muslims were killed in Kashmir in 1947....that provoked Pakistan to send ....Gurillahs.......
> 
> 
> A terrorist is a terrorist...your or mine....he deserves to be killed.....



Going by your theory asking for the links for every Muslim massacre that happened during partition I guess u will argue that there were no killings of Muslims in Punjab and bihar either.


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## Comet

brahmastra said:


> Let me rephrase it
> "Foreign sponsored *terrorists *are still struggling in Kashmir. "
> 
> Yes, they are struggling and they will struggle till India got the sons like Major J Suresh Suri. And India got huge number of Major Suri.



Lets talk about it shall we?

Terrorist is a word used to define a person who terrorize general public for some gain.....

The _people _fighting in Kashmir are called terrorists, why? They are fighting the *All Great Mighty Indian Army *. How come they are terrorists? Please don't tell me they terrorize your Army. Because that would be a disgrace for the *All Great Mighty Indian Army *


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## duhastmish

- may allah bless the soul of brave soldier!!!!!

------------- guys i want to say one thing - *when a soldier is holding the gun - he have no grudge against the person he is going to shoot* - he demand respect for the shear love he shows for his country.

be it freedom fighter or terrorist or civilian , *that soldier was doing his duty assigned to him and we must respect him for that .*
*
IF a Pakistani soldier - is killed during a war with india - will stil l demand respect from me - because he is martyr for his country. died giving his duty assigned to him.
*
-------------------------------

*BTW - EMO *: i agree kashmiri women were raped and were suffering - by crpf people. but things did change , 

but things are not as black and white - these so called jihadi mullah - are not doing no social service there - they are doing it all for their political gain.
and for themselves. i think you know it too. 

a indian soldier is as good as pakistani soldier - yeh crpf -( central reserve police force) cops are as bad as anywhere.

-------------------------------------------------------

and yes - things are always projected - way different in these two coutnries : the way for a Indian -* the Pakistani image is projected - it seems like al l pakistani are monsters. 
*
but reality is totally different . 

same goes for india too - the reality is way different than the media claimed propaganda. these spineless media people and politicians are the disease who needs to be cured.

dont read too much whats projected to you by media and government generated propaganda.

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## blueoval79

emo_girl said:


> There is no Comparison between NWFP insurgency & Kashmir, PA is not committing any crimes against people in Waffen SS style, PA has cleaned that area & locals are happy with them...
> 
> Here it comes, have a look..
> *A bloody account of mass massacres*
> I m quoting 1947 part
> 
> 
> 
> A bloody account of mass massacres | Kashmir Media Service




Well this is Pakistan Based Website....so it is presumed to be Biased to tow Pakistan Line.


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## EjazR

First of all, these militants have no common support among Kashmiris. JKLF was the only Kashmiri based group that was involved in armed struggle and gave that up in 95-96. After that all separatist leaders in Kashmir have given up violence. Then who does LeT and Hizb represent?

Also, these militants target civilian and politicians an police most of whom are muslims. They have themselves indulged in human rights violation. And because of checks and balances the record for Indian security forces continues to improve. Operations against these militants are conducted based on tip offs from the *local kashmiris*. The J&K police is involved in any urban operation which is completely local. Even the Kargil incursions was reported by a muslim Shepard in that area. So please try to rectify your view of these LeT and Hizb terrorists. They are not freedom fighters, and even not from the Indian side of Kashmir either.

So how can these militants be considered freedom fighters, when they come from across the border, kill local civilians and cause fitna and most important of all even the separatist leaders don't want their "help".

----------
About the number of security forces, IA troops are separate from the BSF and para-military forces which are separate from the J&K police. All of these together may constitute around half a million. As violence levels come down, para-military levels will automatically come down.

But obviously there will always be some troops in this state as it is a strategic state. Also the IA also runs a humanitarian relief efforts to help the locals when necessary
Eg: Operation Imdad was the earth quake relief in 05, operation humsafar was to help stranded people in a snow storm, flood relief operation in Leh e.t.c.
The Official Home Page of Indian Army


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## DaRk WaVe

blueoval79 said:


> Well this is Pakistan Based Website....so it is presumed to be Biased to tow Pakistan Line.



wow!!!
U provided Indian links for Number of troops i reject that as welll


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## blueoval79

khalidali said:


> Going by your theory asking for the links for every Muslim massacre that happened during partition I guess u will argue that there were no killings of Muslims in Punjab and bihar either.



Messacar of Muslims in Punjab and Bihar.......Apart from 1947 Riots....I dont think .....There was a Anti muslim Riot in Punjab and Bihar.....and please...People from Both sides got killed in those riots.......and for your information there are items posted on web available which reveal human tragedy of those riots.....so if they are present....why don't we have a post for 1947 Anti Muslim Riots in Kashmir..... in fact the number of Hindus in Kashmir was very less to coordinate any such act.....because there was no such riots. All Pakistani cooked Propaganda.....


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## blueoval79

emo_girl said:


> wow!!!
> U provided Indian links for Number of troops i reject that as welll





By the way ...I am still waiting for Amnesty International Report .........I guess no one can reject that.....


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## DaRk WaVe

blueoval79 said:


> Lady you just calculated... there are less than 300000 Security Personal in Kashmir.....
> 
> So please I request you to stop repeating this 700000 or provide the link for Amnesty International report Claiming 700000 Army men in Kashmir...
> 
> Anyhow the fact is that many parts of the State have no complaints from the presence of the Indian army. *For example, people of Gilgit and Baltistan have no problem with the Indian army. Leaders from Gilgit and Baltistan on the topic have no problem from the Indian army. However their problem is related to the presence of the Pakistan army in Gilgit and Baltistan and many regard it as an army of occupation.*



NO NO, not BS like this 
Kashmirs dont regard IA as occupant thats new for me, come on tell me that all Kashmirs in IOK are killed by Militants & all rape cases are also done by Militants, all the protest happening there are all conducted by militants


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## EjazR

umairp said:


> And what do you do then? Burn them or dig grave for them?
> 
> The difference of religion will remain there, always!



If he is a muslim soldier he will be buried and namaza janazah prayed for him.
If he is a hindu he will be cremated as per his religious rites. 
So what?

That doesn't diminish the fact that both gave their life to protect the people of their country and deserve respect.


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## blueoval79

emo_girl said:


> NO NO, not BS like this
> Kashmirs dont regard IA as occupant thats new for me, come on tell me that all Kashmirs in IOK are killed by Militants & all rape cases are also done by Militants, all the protest happening there are all conducted by militants



Well then I suggest you read this...

http://www.google.co.in/search?rlz=...ian+and+Pakistani+armies+in+Jammu+and+Kashmir


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## Aslan

blueoval79 said:


> Messacar of Muslims in Punjab and Bihar.......Apart from 1947 Riots....I dont think .....There was a Anti muslim Riot in Punjab and Bihar.....and please...People from Both sides got killed in those riots.......and for your information there are items posted on web available which reveal human tragedy of those riots.....so if they are present....why don't we have a post for 1947 Anti Muslim Riots in Kashmir..... in fact the number of Hindus in Kashmir was very less to coordinate any such act.....because there was no such riots. All Pakistani cooked Propaganda.....




I will say it and you will reject it, but did you know that Sikh's, Hindus. and Gorkhas were actively involved in Killing of Muslims where ever possible. And Kashmir was not an exception. You will ask for a link i will put forth one and the you will reject it by claiming it to be some non Indian website and anti Indian, so i wont bother. And as far as people getting killed from both sides, Pakistan didn't send trains full of bodies to India, and I am saying that not because I have read it from some where. I had family that was killed by these very sardars on their way to Pakistan and these are first hand facts.


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## blueoval79

khalidali said:


> I will say it and you will reject it, but did you know that Sikh's, Hindus. and Gorkhas were actively involved in Killing of Muslims where ever possible. And Kashmir was not an exception. You will ask for a link i will put forth one and the you will reject it by claiming it to be some non Indian website and anti Indian, so i wont bother. And as far as people getting killed from both sides, Pakistan didn't send trains full of bodies to India, and I am saying that not because I have read it from some where. I had family that was killed by these very sardars on their way to Pakistan and these are first hand facts.



Well...If you claim ...what do you have to back your claim......I claimed ...there are less than 300000 Army men in Kashmir..I backed it with news items....you too ..provide news items.....


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## Aslan

blueoval79 said:


> Well then I suggest you read this...
> 
> Status of Indian and Pakistani armies in Jammu and Kashmir - Google Search





You do realize that you could have done a better job then providing a link from smashits.com or it is a common obsession with the Indians that even if an anti Pakistani news is published on any website jump on it rather then looking at the credibility of that site.


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## Aslan

blueoval79 said:


> Well...If you claim ...what do you have to back your claim......I claimed ...there are less than 300000 Army men in Kashmir..I backed it with news items....you too ..provide news items.....



First of all i have neither claimed about the number of Indian soldiers nor i have contradicted yours. Read the post again please.

Edit: On your claim about the indian soldiers, you provided an indian source. And then at the same time when Emo-Girl provided a link about Kashmiri killings you rejected it by calling it Pakistani and anti Indian.


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## DaRk WaVe

blueoval79 said:


> Well then I suggest you read this...
> 
> Status of Indian and Pakistani armies in Jammu and Kashmir - Google Search



lolzzz have u seen them, all of the links are Either Indian, some Blog or Wikipedia, i havent been able to Find that link so u win here, for the time being, BUT U HAVE NOT GIVEN ME ANY NEUTRAL LINK... 
& as for your other post regarding 'neutral Source' there is a book called "Alive & well in Pakistan by Ethan Casey" its about Pakistan but in its initial Chapters he is describing his stay in Indian Kashmir with one of the Kashmir Muslims & he's conclusion in the end is that Kashmiri Muslim do have a will to gain independence e.g. i will qoute the one line in it that i remember "They(Muslims) dont believe in any party except Self determination, Free of Indian interference"
Don't Say me Ethan Casey is a Dumb Head


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## blueoval79

khalidali said:


> First of all i have neither claimed about the number of Indian soldiers nor i have contradicted yours. Read the post again please.
> 
> Edit: On your claim about the indian soldiers, you provided an indian source. And then at the same time when Emo-Girl provided a link about Kashmiri killings you rejected it by calling it Pakistani and anti Indian.



This has been the story always....I submit a proof...its refuted....you submit a proof its refuted.....thats what forums are all about......getting to know...other side of the story.....and then mixing it up...with your story ...and interpreting the middle line......we come here with open mind....

Elmo Girl...refuted my links...but she read those links....analyzed information...this may have given her some information about India...similarly I get some information on Pakistani side of the story.....

Thats what forums are all about...... I suggest you come to these forums to learn...not to prove that you are right and I am wrong.......remember ...we all have biases.....and they will remain for ever......

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## blueoval79

emo_girl said:


> lolzzz have u seen them, all of the links are Either Indian, some Blog or Wikipedia, i havent been able to Find that link so u win here, for the time being...
> & as for your other post regarding 'neutral Source' there is a book called "Alive & well in Pakistan by Ethan Casey" its about Pakistan but in its initial Chapters he is describing his stay in Indian Kashmir with one of the Kashmir Muslims & he's conclusion in the end is that Kashmiri Muslim do have a will to gain independence e.g. i will qoute the one line in it that i remember "They(Muslims) dont believe in any parry except Self determination, Free of Indian interference"
> Don't Say me Ethan Casey is a Dumb Head



Its never about winning or losing...its about learning about each other ...about each others Country....about what kind of information sources we skim....about sharing ...about interpreting ...and in turn making each other learn........and learning from each other....


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## EjazR

The main contention is wether LeT and hizb are "freedom fighters" or terrorists. If Kashmiris want to express there view without the use of arms, and there is also a section of Kashmiris who are pro-India as well. These freedom-fighters operate out of Pakistan and kill anyone who doesn't have a pro-Pakistan view. That includes killing pro-independance leaders as well.

Therefore they are terrorists, its as simple as that


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## Aslan

blueoval79 said:


> This has been the story always....I submit a proof...its refuted....you submit a proof its refuted.....thats what forums are all about......getting to know...other side of the story.....and then mixing it up...with your story ...and interpreting the middle line......we come here with open mind....
> 
> Elmo Girl...refuted my links...but she read those links....analyzed information...this may have given her some information about India...similarly I get some information on Pakistani side of the story.....
> 
> Thats what forums are all about...... I suggest you come to these forums to learn...not to prove that you are right and I am wrong.......remember ...we all have biases.....and they will remain for ever......




As I said I never claimed your side to be wrong and mine to be right, as far as the Muslim massacres in Punjab and bihar are concerned i will provide you with the links you can go through them and then reject them, no issues with me. Also i did mention to you that some of the things i stated in my post were stated to me by family members who lived through the horror.


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## DaRk WaVe

Blue Boy turn ur binoculars here 


*Indian Army and Police Tied to Kashmir Killings-NYT*

SRINAGAR, Kashmir, Feb. 3 &#8212; Amid a grove of poplar trees in a village just north of here, a grave was unearthed Thursday afternoon. Out came the body of a man, shot dead nearly two months ago, whom the Indian police described at the time as an anti-Indian militant from Pakistan.

*An elderly man, who had been searching for his missing son for nearly two months, was summoned for the exhumation. He stared at the horror dug out of the ground and told the police what he had refused to believe all this time. &#8220;He is my son,&#8221; he said. Then he sat on the bare ground and shook.*

*As it turned out, the dead man, Abdul Rehman Paddar, was not a Pakistani at all, nor a militant. He was a Kashmiri carpenter from a village south of here.* The Indian police are now investigating whether he was killed by some of their own men, for motives that could range from personal revenge to greed. A suspected militant&#8217;s body, after all, comes with a handsome cash reward. By Saturday, four police officers were under arrest in connection with Mr. Paddar&#8217;s killing.

S. M. Sahai, the chief of police for Kashmir, said his investigators were looking into whether at least two other bodies were part of the same ring; setups like the killing of Mr. Paddar are known here as &#8220;encounter killings.&#8221; Each of the victims had been killed in operations conducted jointly by the police and either an Indian Army unit or a paramilitary force that operates under army command, he said.

By the end of the day on Saturday, as the investigation snowballed, a total of five bodies had been exhumed, all in the area surrounding Sumbal, and their identities were being checked.

The exhumations have not only unearthed a deep well of resentment among the people of Indian-administered Kashmir, but have also forced the Indian government to face anew long-simmering charges of abuse by Indian soldiers and the police.

*Kashmiris have long accused the Indian authorities of disappearances and extrajudicial killings; one local human rights group estimates that 10,000 people have disappeared since the anti-Indian insurgency began here in 1989.* Nor have civilians been immune to the savagery of militants; beheadings are among their favored tactics.

India blames its rival and neighbor, Pakistan, for aiding and arming the insurgents. Pakistan denies the charge, and does not recognize India&#8217;s claim to Kashmir. Claimed by both countries, Kashmir has been a center of strife for nearly 60 years.

While the violence has calmed considerably since a 2004 peace deal between India and Pakistan, it has hardly ended the bloodshed or diminished the presence of Indian troops here. India says troop reduction can begin only when the militants lay down their weapons.

*Those troops have been blamed repeatedly for human rights abuses here, most recently by a 156-page report released last October by Human Rights Watch, which detailed dozens of cases in which, it said, the state had failed to hold its security forces accountable for suspected abductions, killings and detentions.*

*Among the most infamous of those cases were the March 2000 killings in the southern village of Pathirabal of five men, whom the army identified as foreign terrorists responsible for a massacre of Sikh civilians. The men, whose bodies had been burned and badly mutilated, turned out to be civilians abducted by the army, according to relatives and a subsequent federal investigation.*

*In a rare instance of prosecution, five Indian soldiers were charged with the killings, but the case remains stuck in the courts nearly seven years later, and the accused remain on the job. The army insists that they be tried by an internal court martial, and not a civilian court.*

Human Rights Watch blamed the Indian government for what it called its &#8220;lack of commitment&#8221; to accountability and a series of Indian laws that shield soldiers in conflict zones like Kashmir. &#8220;This has led to a serious climate of impunity,&#8221; the report concluded.

Indian officials have explicitly sought to use the latest cases of encounter killings to rebut accusations of impunity, pointing out that they have taken the lead in investigating army and police officials linked to what they call isolated abuses of power.

&#8220;This is an aberration,&#8221; Mr. Sahai, the police chief, said in an interview in his office here in the summer capital of Indian-run Kashmir. &#8220;This is not the rule. We have not tried to suppress anything. Whatever are the facts of the case have come out in the open. If we are trying to set our house in order, that should increase public confidence.&#8221;

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/06/world/asia/06kashmir.html


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## blueoval79

^^^^


Well lady I did some search for you...:

Please go to this link and read...
Human Rights watch report.....read fully ....

"Everyone Lives in Fear" | Human Rights Watch

It gives you both sides of the story...... And yes it Claims ..some figure on Army presence....and backs it up with a link to a Book......

But as far as I know...Pakistanis are not happy with human Rights group....they are not considered good in Pakistan...I wonder why this report by HRW ..holds so much ground in Pkaistan....even though Human Rights Activists are not respected and some times called names ..


----------



## Spring Onion

*Mass Graves Uncovered In Indian Kashmir*

*The Associated Press*



*Rights workers have discovered several unmarked graves containing about 1,500 unidentified bodies in Indian Kashmir, a prominent rights group said Thursday, alleging that some of corpses were likely innocent people killed by government forces.*Researchers from the Association of Parents of Disappeared People, or APDP, which represents relatives of people who have disappeared in the violence, says at least eight of the graves held more than one body.
An Indian official said the bodies were likely those of militants killed over the past 20 years in fighting for control of the Himalayan region. But the government has also opened an investigation into such graves.

We have found more graves of about 1,500 people buried as unidentified in three remote districts during our ongoing survey. We've found that at least eight are mass graves as they contain more than one body.
- Pervez Imroz, lawyer for the Association of Parents of Disappeared People
Separatist groups there are fighting for the Indian-controlled portion's independence from predominantly Hindu India or its merger with mostly Muslim Pakistan. *More than 68,000 people, most of them civilians, have been killed in the uprising and the subsequent Indian crackdown.*
*Last year in a report titled, "Facts Under Ground" APDP had reported finding the unmarked graves of about 1,000 people near Uri, an area near the de facto frontier that divides Indian- and Pakistani-controlled Kashmir and referred to as Line of Control.
"We have found more graves of about 1,500 people buried as unidentified in three remote districts during our ongoing survey," Pervez Imroz, the group's lawyer, said in an interview Thursday. "We've found that at least eight are mass graves as they contain more than one body."*
The latest report from the districts of Baramulla, Kupwara and Bandipore is part of the APDP's ongoing survey of the northern parts of Indian Kashmir, which is near the Line of Control and will eventually broaden to the rest of the state.
After last year's revelations, Amnesty International called for an independent probe into the unmarked graves.
On Thursday, Ramesh Gopalakrishnan, a researcher on the London-based rights group's South Asia team, said there had been no "responsible and serious" response on the subject by either the state or federal governments.


Indian authorities had dismissed the earlier revelations but this year the State Human Rights Commission, a government body formed after widespread allegations of human rights abuses by the army, paramilitary and police in the state, sought information on the issue.

"The state government has yet to respond to our notice," said Farooq Ahmed, an official of the commission said Thursday.
All the state officials reached by the Associated Press declined to comment on the subject.

However, one senior police officer who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter, said authorities launched an investigation last year when the revelations were first made. "Hundreds of foreign militants have been killed since the militancy started, and many of them have died in gunbattles on borders. Everyone knows they have been buried as unidentified," he said.

*Human rights workers have complained for years that innocent people have disappeared, been killed by government forces in staged gunbattles, and suspected rebels have been arrested and never heard from again.
Rights groups say there have been an estimated 8,000 to 10,000 disappearances since the anti-India rebellion began in 1989*. 


*Anti-India sentiment runs deep in Kashmir, a region divided between India and Pakistan, but claimed by both.*
The government says most of the people who disappeared are Kashmiri youths who crossed into neighboring Pakistan for weapons training.
The state government said Monday that 3,429 people have disappeared from their homes while 110 others disappeared from the custody of government forces in the past two decades.


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## abdulalimkhan

Jana said:


> They also call Gandhi as martyr. Their understanding is different than ours.



Ya its right. Even our thoughts are different than yours.


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## Spring Onion

abdulalimkhan said:


> Ya its right. Even our thoughts are different than yours.



Everyone has a different thoughts whats so special about it. Nothing new.


----------



## Aslan

India-Pakistan Partition 1947

Here is a link from a neutral source and it clearly tells where there were bad things done by both the sides, and especially how the state of Pakistan was Mega S(R@wed to accomadate India and manny ares that were to be PAkistan were handed over to India jut to get them access to Kashmir.


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## blueoval79

khalidali said:


> India-Pakistan Partition 1947
> 
> Here is a link from a neutral source and it clearly tells where there were bad things done by both the sides, and especially how the state of Pakistan was Mega S(R@wed to accomadate India and manny ares that were to be PAkistan were handed over to India jut to get them access to Kashmir.



Good link...but tell where does this article provide information on Muslims being Massacred in Kashmir in 1947......


----------



## Aslan

blueoval79 said:


> Good link...but tell where does this article provide information on Muslims being Massacred in Kashmir in 1947......



I think Emo already gave you a link for that


----------



## pakomar

so this show the freedom fighter of kashmir are still there and they are gun down by indian army ..


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## Spring Onion

pakomar said:


> so this show the freedom fighter of kashmir are still there and they are gun down by indian army ..



They gun down every Kashmiri as long as he is against Indian occupation


----------



## Spring Onion

*Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Kashmir *
Dr. Angana Chatterji 
09 July, 2008 


Dirt, rubble, thick grass, hillside and flatland, crowded with graves. Signifiers of military and paramilitary terror, masked from the world. Constructed by institutions of state to conceal massacre. Placed next to homes, fields, schools, an army practise range. Unknown, unmarked. Over 940 graves in a segment of Baramulla district alone. Some containing more than one cadaver. Dug by locals, coerced by the police, on village land. Bodies dragged through the night, some tortured, burnt, desecrated. Circulating mythology claims these graves uniformly house &#8216;foreign militants&#8217;. Exhumation and identification have not occurred in most cases. When undertaken, in sizable instances, records prove the dead to be local people, ordinary citizens, killed in fake encounters. In instances where bodies have been identified as local, non-militant and militant, it demystifies state rhetoric that rumours these persons to be &#8216;foreign militants&#8217;, propagating misrepresentation that the demand for self-determination is prevailingly external. Mourned, cared for, by locals, as &#8216;farz&#8217;/duty, as part of an obligation,
stated repeatedly, to &#8216;azadi&#8217;. &#8216;Azadi&#8217;/freedom to determine self and future.
On 18 and 20 June, the International People&#8217;s Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice in Indian-administered Kashmir (&#8216;Tribunal&#8217;, convened in April 2008, International People's Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice in Indian-Administered Kashmir) visited Baramulla and Kupwara district to conduct ongoing fact-finding and verification related to mass graves at the behest of local communities.
The team comprised of Tribunal Conveners Advocate Parvez Imroz and myself, a staff member, and camera crew.
On 18 June, we visited Raja Mohalla in Uri, Baramulla district, 110 kilometres from Srinagar, where 22 graves were constructed between 1996-1997. Then to Quazipora, where 13 bodies were stated as buried in seven graves in 1991. Then we travelled to Chehal, Bimyar village, Uri, holding 235 graves. We re-met Atta Mohammad, gravedigger and caretaker at Chehal, who testified that these bodies, brought by the police, primarily
after dark, were buried between 2002-2006. Atta Mohammad said that the bodies appear in his nightmares, each in graphic, gruesome detail. Terrorised by the task forced upon him, his nights are bereft of sleep. Then we travelled to Mir Mohalla, Kichama, Sheeri, to the main graveyard with 105 graves, stated to hold about 225-250 bodies, buried between 1994-2003, and a smaller graveyard, with nine graves, adjacent to a sign proclaiming it a &#8216;Model Village&#8217;.
On 20 June, we visited the northern district of Kupwara. On the way we witnessed army convoys, including one of 21+ vehicles. Created in 1979 through the forking of Baramulla district, approximately 5,000 feet above sea level, Kupwara borders the Line-of-Control to the north and west. Between Shamsbari and Pirpanchal mountain ranges, it is one of the most heavily militarised zones, about 95 kilometres from Srinagar. Kupwara houses six army camps, as military and paramilitary forces occupy significant land. Seven interrogation centres have been operational with police stations functioning as additional interrogation cells. In Handwara town, a watchtower surveils and regulates movement.
In Kupwara, we visited Trehgam village, holding 85-100 graves, 24 of which are identified, and spoke with community members. Trehgam was home to Maqbool Bhat (b. 1938), founding figure of the Jammu Kashmir National Liberation Front. Acknowledged as Shaheed-e-Kashmir, Bhat is labelled a &#8216;terrorist&#8217; by certain segments of India. He sought to unite the territories of the former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir into a secular, sovereign, democratic state. Bhat was sentenced to death by the Supreme Court of India and hanged in Tihar jail in New Delhi on 11 February 1984. Maqbool Bhat&#8217;s nephew, Parvaiz Ahmad Bhat, reminded us that Habibullah Bhat, Bhat&#8217;s brother, was the first case of enforced disappearance before 1989.
After Trehgam, we reached Regipora around 3 pm and stopped for lunch. There, two persons introduced themselves as Special Branch Kashmir (SBK) and Counter Intelligence Kashmir (CIK) personnel, and questioned the Tribunal staff member about our visit. After responding, we proceeded to the &#8216;martyrs&#8217; graveyard&#8217; holding 258 graves, constructed in 1995. This burial ground is meticulously ordered, each grave numbered. The body of a 20-25 year old youth was buried in the first week of June, reportedly killed in an encounter in Bamhama village.
We stopped at a roadside tea stall to speak with local people about the graves. Four intelligence personnel questioned us, asking we disclose information about those we had visited. Soon, four additional SBK and CIK personnel joined the questioning. Other intelligence personnel made phone calls. By then, about 12 intelligence personnel gathered. Following further questioning we proceeded toward Srinagar. A car followed at a distance.
We detoured to Sadipora, Kandi, where locals stated that around 20 bodies were buried. The graveyard, overrun with wild flowers, is part of a larger ground used during festivals, including Id. Two of four bodies, killed in a fake encounter on 29 April 2007, were exhumed, identified as locals, contrary to police records stating them to be &#8216;Pakistani terrorists&#8217;. Saidipora holds Riyaz Ahmad Bhat&#8217;s grave, killed in the encounter, age 19. Police records, per the First Information Report, declared him a &#8216;Pakistani terrorist&#8217;. Riyaz Bhat was identified by Javeed Ahmed, his brother, as a resident of Kalashpora, Srinagar, based on police photographs from the time of death. Ahmed travelled with the Tribunal to take us to his brother&#8217;s grave. On his knees Javeed attempted to clear the thick brush. Later, in Srinagar, he testified that Bhat had never been involved in militancy. Javeed spoke of grieving, of imprisonment and beatings at the police station. He asked how he could have saved his brother from death.
After Sadiapora, we were stopped at Shangargund, Sopore, at about 6.40 pm, by three persons in civilian clothing. They forcibly boarded the car. We were ordered to the Sopore Police Station. There we were asked to detail our identity, employment, the purpose of the visit, and to hand over tapes which, the police alleged, contained &#8216;dangerous&#8217; and &#8216;objectionable&#8217; material. We stated that the Tribunal, a public process, was undertaking its work peaceably, lawfully, with informed consent, and that we had not visited restricted areas. We stated that the police had no lawful reason to seize the tapes. We were detained for 16 minutes.
After several calls to senior police persons, we were released. A red Indica car followed us to Sangrama. At Srinagar, Intelligence personnel were stationed at my hotel. On 21 June, I was followed from the hotel to the Tribunal&#8217;s office in Lal Chowk, where about 8 personnel were stationed the entire day questioning anyone who entered or left the office.
My mother, residing in Calcutta, received a query regarding my whereabouts from the District Magistrate&#8217;s Office. I was followed to the Srinagar airport on 22 June, and questioned, asked if I possessed dual citizenship. I do not. I am a citizen of India and a permanent resident of the United States. On 24 June, I arrived in Bhubaneswar to submit a statement to the Commission of Inquiry on the Kandhamal violence against Christians in 2007 in Orissa. There too, Central Intelligence officials persistently inquired after me. In April, after announcing the Tribunal, I was stopped and harassed at Immigration while leaving India for the United States, and again on my re-entry in June.


The targeting of the Tribunal has not abated since the Amarnath issue erupted around 23 June. The volatile proposal to transfer 800 kanals of land to the Shrine Board, revoked on 01 July, was supported by the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party and Hindu militant Shiv Sena. Despite the Sena&#8217;s recent call to Hindus to form suicide squads, it faces no sanctions from the state. Kashmiris of diverse ethnicities and religions dissented the Amarnath land transfer. Community leaders in Kashmir explained that their stance against the proposal is not in dissent to Hindu pilgrims, but a repressive state. During the Amarnath land transfer protests, civil disobedience paralleled that of 1989, amid severe repression. On 30 June, in curfew-like conditions, we met with two families in Srinagar who narrated that the police had shot dead their sons. At one place, in the old city, while the men took the body for burial late at night, the police returned and destroyed property and molested women.
On 30 June, at about 10:10 pm, Parvez Imroz and his family were attacked at home by state forces, who fired three shots and hurled a grenade while exiting when family and community interrupted their attempts. Neighbours reported seeing one large armoured vehicle and two Gypsy cars, and men in CRPF (Central Reserve Police Force) and SOG (Special Operations Group) uniforms. This murder attempt is an escalation in the forms of state-led intimidation and targeting aimed at Advocate Imroz. It is an attempt to make the Tribunal vulnerable and instil fear in us in an attempt to stop this process.
On 01 July, we met at Khurram Parvez&#8217;s home before addressing a press conference. Outside, jeeps with plainclothes men continued their observation, accompanied by a jeep with armed men in uniform.


Later, Advocate Imroz, Khurram Parvez, Advocate Mihir Desai, and I went to the police station to lodge a First Information Report. We were not permitted to do so. For security reasons, Parvez Imroz is not staying at home. Khurram Parvez remains under surveillance.
I must allow for distance before revisiting the graves. On 04 July, sitting on a plane at Delhi International Airport, waiting to take-off, I received a phone call on my India mobile, caller &#8216;Unknown&#8217;: &#8220;Madam,we know you&#8217;re leaving. Think wisely before coming back&#8221;.
Orders to unnerve the leadership of the International Tribunal by the Government of India&#8217;s intelligence and security administration appear to be generated at the highest levels. The general policy of surveillance should not be used as a pretext to create obstacles for our work. As India argues for a seat on the United Nations Security Council, the Government of India, as &#8216;Frontline Defenders&#8217; stated in their recent alert supporting the Tribunal, must adhere to its own repeated commitment to peace in Kashmir and international conventions and laws. It must uphold democratic governance and safeguard human rights.
Advocate Imroz, Khurram Parvez, other members of the Tribunal team, have long experienced injustices for their extraordinary work as human rights defenders. A lauded human rights lawyer, Parvez Imroz has survived two, now three, assassination attempts, the first from militants. Since 2005, his passport has been denied. Khurram Parvez lost his leg in a landmine incident. Gautam Navlakha and Zahir-ud-Din have been intimidated and threatened, as has Mihir Desai, in their larger work. It is noteworthy that the Government of India is adding intimidation to the death and rape threats delivered me by Hindu extremists for human rights work.
The work of the Tribunal is an act of conscience and accountability, fraught with the charge of complex and violent histories. Its mandate, in documenting Kashmir&#8217;s present, is to chronicle the fabric of militarisation, status of human rights, and legal, political, militaristic &#8216;states of exception&#8217;. The Tribunal&#8217;s work will continue through the coming months. We have received extensive solidarity from civil society; victims/survivors, at street corners, from villagers, ordinary citizens, those committed to justice. Each life in Kashmir has a story to tell. The subjugation of civil society has produced magnificent ethical resistance. The state cannot combat every individual.
Nearly two decades of genocidal violence record 70,000+ dead, 8,000+ disappeared, 60,000+ tortured, 50,000+ orphaned,incalculable sexualised and gendered violence, a very high rate of people with suicidal behaviours; hundreds of thousands displaced; violations of promises, laws, conventions, agreements, treaties; mass graves; mile upon mile of barbed wire; fear, suppression of varied demands for participation to determine Kashmir&#8217;s future, spirals of violence, protracted silence. Last year, Kashmir&#8217;s only hospital with services for mental health received 68,000 patients. Profound social, economic, and psychological consequences,and an intense isolation have impacted private, public, and everyday life. It has generated brutal resistance on the part of groups that have engaged in violent militancy. Repressions of struggles for self-determination and international
policies/politics have yielded severe consequences, creating a juncture at which the failure of governance intersects with a culture of grief.
Torture survivors, non-militants and former militants, that I met with testified to the sadism of the forces. Reportedly, a man, hung upside down, had petrol injected through his anus. Water-boarding,mutilation, rape of women, children, and men, starvation, psychological torture.
Brutalised, &#8216;healed&#8217;, to be brutalised again. An eagle tattoo on the arm of a man was reportedly identified by an army officer as a symbol of Pakistan-held Azad Kashmir, even as the man clarified the tattoo was from his childhood. The skin containing it was burned. The officer, the man stated, said: &#8220;When you look at this, think of azadi&#8221;. A mother, reportedly asked to watch her daughter&#8217;s rape by army personnel, pleaded for her release. They refused. She pleaded that she could not watch, asking to be sent out of the room or be killed. We were told that the soldier pointed a gun to her forehead, stating he would grant her wish, and shot her before they proceeded to rape the daughter. We also spoke with persons violated by militants. One man stated that people&#8217;s experiences with the reprehensible atrocities of militancy do not imply the abdication of their desire for self-determination. This, he stated, is a mistake the state makes, conflating militancy with the intent for self-determination.
He clarified that neither is self-determination an indication of allegiance to Pakistan, largely to the contrary.
The continuing and daunting presence of military and paramilitary forces, increased and sophisticated surveillance, merges with pervasive and immense suffering and anger of people in villages, towns, and cities across Kashmir. Parallel to the presence of 500,000 troops and commitment to nuclearisation, official figures state that there are about 450 militants in Kashmir and that demilitarisation is underway. In March 2007, three government committees on demilitarisation resolved that the &#8216;low intensity war continues&#8217;, placing in limbo troop reduction and the repealment of draconian laws -- the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, 1958, imposed in Jammu and Kashmir in December 1990, and the Disturbed Areas Act, 1976, enacted in 1992. Local realities reflect that these laws and the military seek to control the general population with impunity.
Kashmir is increasingly defined as a &#8216;post-conflict&#8217; zone. &#8216;Post-conflict&#8217; is not the propagation of tourism toward an overt display of nationalism. Post-conflict is a space in which to heal, reflect, and enable civil society participation in determining peace and justice. The graves speak to those that listen. Those haunted by history are called to remember.

(Dr Angana Chatterji is associate professor of Social and Cultural Anthropology at the California Institute of Integral Studies and co-convener of the International People&#8217;s Tribunal in Kashmir. A shorter version of the article appeared in Tehelka magazine&#8217;s recent issue).[/B]

The Daily Etalaat Srinagar - Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Kashmir

The Daily Etalaat Srinagar - Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Kashmir


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

So long as the insurgents target combatants and government infrastructure and officials (representing the occupying authority - occupied since Kashmir is internationally recognized as disputed), and do not deliberately target civilians, I do not see how they can be called terrorists.

In the recent incidents the clashes were between security forces and militants - combatants on both sides - so both sides would be correct to call their dead 'martyrs' I suppose.

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## gogbot

Jana said:


> *Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Kashmir *
> Dr. Angana Chatterji
> 09 July, 2008
> 
> 
> Dirt, rubble, thick grass, hillside and flatland, crowded with graves. Signifiers of military and paramilitary terror, masked from the world. Constructed by institutions of state to conceal massacre. Placed next to homes, fields, schools, an army practise range. Unknown, unmarked. Over 940 graves in a segment of Baramulla district alone. Some containing more than one cadaver. Dug by locals, coerced by the police, on village land. Bodies dragged through the night, some tortured, burnt, desecrated. Circulating mythology claims these graves uniformly house foreign militants. Exhumation and identification have not occurred in most cases. When undertaken, in sizable instances, records prove the dead to be local people, ordinary citizens, killed in fake encounters. In instances where bodies have been identified as local, non-militant and militant, it demystifies state rhetoric that rumours these persons to be foreign militants, propagating misrepresentation that the demand for self-determination is prevailingly external. Mourned, cared for, by locals, as farz/duty, as part of an obligation,
> stated repeatedly, to azadi. Azadi/freedom to determine self and future.
> On 18 and 20 June, the International Peoples Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice in Indian-administered Kashmir (Tribunal, convened in April 2008, International People's Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice in Indian-Administered Kashmir) visited Baramulla and Kupwara district to conduct ongoing fact-finding and verification related to mass graves at the behest of local communities.
> The team comprised of Tribunal Conveners Advocate Parvez Imroz and myself, a staff member, and camera crew.
> On 18 June, we visited Raja Mohalla in Uri, Baramulla district, 110 kilometres from Srinagar, where 22 graves were constructed between 1996-1997. Then to Quazipora, where 13 bodies were stated as buried in seven graves in 1991. Then we travelled to Chehal, Bimyar village, Uri, holding 235 graves. We re-met Atta Mohammad, gravedigger and caretaker at Chehal, who testified that these bodies, brought by the police, primarily
> after dark, were buried between 2002-2006. Atta Mohammad said that the bodies appear in his nightmares, each in graphic, gruesome detail. Terrorised by the task forced upon him, his nights are bereft of sleep. Then we travelled to Mir Mohalla, Kichama, Sheeri, to the main graveyard with 105 graves, stated to hold about 225-250 bodies, buried between 1994-2003, and a smaller graveyard, with nine graves, adjacent to a sign proclaiming it a Model Village.
> On 20 June, we visited the northern district of Kupwara. On the way we witnessed army convoys, including one of 21+ vehicles. Created in 1979 through the forking of Baramulla district, approximately 5,000 feet above sea level, Kupwara borders the Line-of-Control to the north and west. Between Shamsbari and Pirpanchal mountain ranges, it is one of the most heavily militarised zones, about 95 kilometres from Srinagar. Kupwara houses six army camps, as military and paramilitary forces occupy significant land. Seven interrogation centres have been operational with police stations functioning as additional interrogation cells. In Handwara town, a watchtower surveils and regulates movement.
> In Kupwara, we visited Trehgam village, holding 85-100 graves, 24 of which are identified, and spoke with community members. Trehgam was home to Maqbool Bhat (b. 1938), founding figure of the Jammu Kashmir National Liberation Front. Acknowledged as Shaheed-e-Kashmir, Bhat is labelled a terrorist by certain segments of India. He sought to unite the territories of the former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir into a secular, sovereign, democratic state. Bhat was sentenced to death by the Supreme Court of India and hanged in Tihar jail in New Delhi on 11 February 1984. Maqbool Bhats nephew, Parvaiz Ahmad Bhat, reminded us that Habibullah Bhat, Bhats brother, was the first case of enforced disappearance before 1989.
> After Trehgam, we reached Regipora around 3 pm and stopped for lunch. There, two persons introduced themselves as Special Branch Kashmir (SBK) and Counter Intelligence Kashmir (CIK) personnel, and questioned the Tribunal staff member about our visit. After responding, we proceeded to the martyrs graveyard holding 258 graves, constructed in 1995. This burial ground is meticulously ordered, each grave numbered. The body of a 20-25 year old youth was buried in the first week of June, reportedly killed in an encounter in Bamhama village.
> We stopped at a roadside tea stall to speak with local people about the graves. Four intelligence personnel questioned us, asking we disclose information about those we had visited. Soon, four additional SBK and CIK personnel joined the questioning. Other intelligence personnel made phone calls. By then, about 12 intelligence personnel gathered. Following further questioning we proceeded toward Srinagar. A car followed at a distance.
> We detoured to Sadipora, Kandi, where locals stated that around 20 bodies were buried. The graveyard, overrun with wild flowers, is part of a larger ground used during festivals, including Id. Two of four bodies, killed in a fake encounter on 29 April 2007, were exhumed, identified as locals, contrary to police records stating them to be Pakistani terrorists. Saidipora holds Riyaz Ahmad Bhats grave, killed in the encounter, age 19. Police records, per the First Information Report, declared him a Pakistani terrorist. Riyaz Bhat was identified by Javeed Ahmed, his brother, as a resident of Kalashpora, Srinagar, based on police photographs from the time of death. Ahmed travelled with the Tribunal to take us to his brothers grave. On his knees Javeed attempted to clear the thick brush. Later, in Srinagar, he testified that Bhat had never been involved in militancy. Javeed spoke of grieving, of imprisonment and beatings at the police station. He asked how he could have saved his brother from death.
> After Sadiapora, we were stopped at Shangargund, Sopore, at about 6.40 pm, by three persons in civilian clothing. They forcibly boarded the car. We were ordered to the Sopore Police Station. There we were asked to detail our identity, employment, the purpose of the visit, and to hand over tapes which, the police alleged, contained dangerous and objectionable material. We stated that the Tribunal, a public process, was undertaking its work peaceably, lawfully, with informed consent, and that we had not visited restricted areas. We stated that the police had no lawful reason to seize the tapes. We were detained for 16 minutes.
> After several calls to senior police persons, we were released. A red Indica car followed us to Sangrama. At Srinagar, Intelligence personnel were stationed at my hotel. On 21 June, I was followed from the hotel to the Tribunals office in Lal Chowk, where about 8 personnel were stationed the entire day questioning anyone who entered or left the office.
> My mother, residing in Calcutta, received a query regarding my whereabouts from the District Magistrates Office. I was followed to the Srinagar airport on 22 June, and questioned, asked if I possessed dual citizenship. I do not. I am a citizen of India and a permanent resident of the United States. On 24 June, I arrived in Bhubaneswar to submit a statement to the Commission of Inquiry on the Kandhamal violence against Christians in 2007 in Orissa. There too, Central Intelligence officials persistently inquired after me. In April, after announcing the Tribunal, I was stopped and harassed at Immigration while leaving India for the United States, and again on my re-entry in June.
> 
> 
> The targeting of the Tribunal has not abated since the Amarnath issue erupted around 23 June. The volatile proposal to transfer 800 kanals of land to the Shrine Board, revoked on 01 July, was supported by the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party and Hindu militant Shiv Sena. Despite the Senas recent call to Hindus to form suicide squads, it faces no sanctions from the state. Kashmiris of diverse ethnicities and religions dissented the Amarnath land transfer. Community leaders in Kashmir explained that their stance against the proposal is not in dissent to Hindu pilgrims, but a repressive state. During the Amarnath land transfer protests, civil disobedience paralleled that of 1989, amid severe repression. On 30 June, in curfew-like conditions, we met with two families in Srinagar who narrated that the police had shot dead their sons. At one place, in the old city, while the men took the body for burial late at night, the police returned and destroyed property and molested women.
> On 30 June, at about 10:10 pm, Parvez Imroz and his family were attacked at home by state forces, who fired three shots and hurled a grenade while exiting when family and community interrupted their attempts. Neighbours reported seeing one large armoured vehicle and two Gypsy cars, and men in CRPF (Central Reserve Police Force) and SOG (Special Operations Group) uniforms. This murder attempt is an escalation in the forms of state-led intimidation and targeting aimed at Advocate Imroz. It is an attempt to make the Tribunal vulnerable and instil fear in us in an attempt to stop this process.
> On 01 July, we met at Khurram Parvezs home before addressing a press conference. Outside, jeeps with plainclothes men continued their observation, accompanied by a jeep with armed men in uniform.
> 
> 
> Later, Advocate Imroz, Khurram Parvez, Advocate Mihir Desai, and I went to the police station to lodge a First Information Report. We were not permitted to do so. For security reasons, Parvez Imroz is not staying at home. Khurram Parvez remains under surveillance.
> I must allow for distance before revisiting the graves. On 04 July, sitting on a plane at Delhi International Airport, waiting to take-off, I received a phone call on my India mobile, caller Unknown: Madam,we know youre leaving. Think wisely before coming back.
> Orders to unnerve the leadership of the International Tribunal by the Government of Indias intelligence and security administration appear to be generated at the highest levels. The general policy of surveillance should not be used as a pretext to create obstacles for our work. As India argues for a seat on the United Nations Security Council, the Government of India, as Frontline Defenders stated in their recent alert supporting the Tribunal, must adhere to its own repeated commitment to peace in Kashmir and international conventions and laws. It must uphold democratic governance and safeguard human rights.
> Advocate Imroz, Khurram Parvez, other members of the Tribunal team, have long experienced injustices for their extraordinary work as human rights defenders. A lauded human rights lawyer, Parvez Imroz has survived two, now three, assassination attempts, the first from militants. Since 2005, his passport has been denied. Khurram Parvez lost his leg in a landmine incident. Gautam Navlakha and Zahir-ud-Din have been intimidated and threatened, as has Mihir Desai, in their larger work. It is noteworthy that the Government of India is adding intimidation to the death and rape threats delivered me by Hindu extremists for human rights work.
> The work of the Tribunal is an act of conscience and accountability, fraught with the charge of complex and violent histories. Its mandate, in documenting Kashmirs present, is to chronicle the fabric of militarisation, status of human rights, and legal, political, militaristic states of exception. The Tribunals work will continue through the coming months. We have received extensive solidarity from civil society; victims/survivors, at street corners, from villagers, ordinary citizens, those committed to justice. Each life in Kashmir has a story to tell. The subjugation of civil society has produced magnificent ethical resistance. The state cannot combat every individual.
> Nearly two decades of genocidal violence record 70,000+ dead, 8,000+ disappeared, 60,000+ tortured, 50,000+ orphaned,incalculable sexualised and gendered violence, a very high rate of people with suicidal behaviours; hundreds of thousands displaced; violations of promises, laws, conventions, agreements, treaties; mass graves; mile upon mile of barbed wire; fear, suppression of varied demands for participation to determine Kashmirs future, spirals of violence, protracted silence. Last year, Kashmirs only hospital with services for mental health received 68,000 patients. Profound social, economic, and psychological consequences,and an intense isolation have impacted private, public, and everyday life. It has generated brutal resistance on the part of groups that have engaged in violent militancy. Repressions of struggles for self-determination and international
> policies/politics have yielded severe consequences, creating a juncture at which the failure of governance intersects with a culture of grief.
> Torture survivors, non-militants and former militants, that I met with testified to the sadism of the forces. Reportedly, a man, hung upside down, had petrol injected through his anus. Water-boarding,mutilation, rape of women, children, and men, starvation, psychological torture.
> Brutalised, healed, to be brutalised again. An eagle tattoo on the arm of a man was reportedly identified by an army officer as a symbol of Pakistan-held Azad Kashmir, even as the man clarified the tattoo was from his childhood. The skin containing it was burned. The officer, the man stated, said: When you look at this, think of azadi. A mother, reportedly asked to watch her daughters rape by army personnel, pleaded for her release. They refused. She pleaded that she could not watch, asking to be sent out of the room or be killed. We were told that the soldier pointed a gun to her forehead, stating he would grant her wish, and shot her before they proceeded to rape the daughter. We also spoke with persons violated by militants. One man stated that peoples experiences with the reprehensible atrocities of militancy do not imply the abdication of their desire for self-determination. This, he stated, is a mistake the state makes, conflating militancy with the intent for self-determination.
> He clarified that neither is self-determination an indication of allegiance to Pakistan, largely to the contrary.
> The continuing and daunting presence of military and paramilitary forces, increased and sophisticated surveillance, merges with pervasive and immense suffering and anger of people in villages, towns, and cities across Kashmir. Parallel to the presence of 500,000 troops and commitment to nuclearisation, official figures state that there are about 450 militants in Kashmir and that demilitarisation is underway. In March 2007, three government committees on demilitarisation resolved that the low intensity war continues, placing in limbo troop reduction and the repealment of draconian laws -- the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, 1958, imposed in Jammu and Kashmir in December 1990, and the Disturbed Areas Act, 1976, enacted in 1992. Local realities reflect that these laws and the military seek to control the general population with impunity.
> Kashmir is increasingly defined as a post-conflict zone. Post-conflict is not the propagation of tourism toward an overt display of nationalism. Post-conflict is a space in which to heal, reflect, and enable civil society participation in determining peace and justice. The graves speak to those that listen. Those haunted by history are called to remember.
> 
> (Dr Angana Chatterji is associate professor of Social and Cultural Anthropology at the California Institute of Integral Studies and co-convener of the International Peoples Tribunal in Kashmir. A shorter version of the article appeared in Tehelka magazines recent issue).[/B]
> 
> The Daily Etalaat Srinagar - Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Kashmir
> 
> The Daily Etalaat Srinagar - Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Kashmir



Is that it ,JANA an unknown article from an unknown web site.
If India really was an evil occupation force it could do a lot worse that anything you describe.

In reality, What happens in Kashmir is very different.

No doubt The IA had some faults in its ability to maintain law and order. 
But An army was never meant to be a police force. a role that it must forcibly follow with army doctrine. Thus you see police brutality but in reality its not the police but the army. Thus army follows army doctrine.

The terrorist incursions further complicate situations on the Indian side.

And what about your occupied Kashmir, no one ever hears anything from there?


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## jehangirhaider

Mr Shri Ram what you want to prove, all people are talking about Kashmir, why you are showing youtube video about BLA, it is our internal problem flamed by Indians and it is not disputed area,it is not in UN, so please shut your nonsense post. what if i here put other freedom movements inside India like nagaland,manipura so many even dnt remember the name, but there is no point to discuss those here because all others are internal to India.

So please stop this nonsense.... and you can not deny Kashmir disputed issue till it is solved either by force or by table talks.

BTW who ever started this topic about Indian Major, this is also nonsense thread. Now this "defence.pk forum will used to show the identity,bravery and family background of every killed person of Indian army inside occupied Kashmir.


----------



## gogbot

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> So long as the insurgents target combatants and government infrastructure and officials (representing the occupying authority - occupied since Kashmir is internationally recognized as disputed), and do not deliberately target civilians, I do not see how they can be called terrorists.
> 
> In the recent incidents the clashes were between security forces and militants - combatants on both sides - so both sides would be correct to call their dead 'martyrs' I suppose.



What about the bombs these groups plant that result in the deaths of civilians.


----------



## Comet

gogbot said:


> Is that it ,JANA an unknown article from an unknown web site.
> If India really was an evil occupation force it could do a lot worse that anything you describe.
> 
> In reality, What happens in Kashmir is very different.
> 
> No doubt The IA had some faults in its ability to maintain law and order.
> But An army was never meant to be a police force. a role that it must forcibly follow with army doctrine. Thus you see police brutality but in reality its not the police but the army. Thus army follows army doctrine.
> 
> The terrorist incursions further complicate situations on the Indian side.
> 
> *And what about your occupied Kashmir, no one ever hears anything from there?*



What do you want to hear.. I may be able to help!


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gogbot said:


> And what about your occupied Kashmir, no one ever hears anything from there?


This entire thread is about occupied Kashmir, along with the Amnesty and HRW reports on atrocities by Indian occupation forces, so what do you mean 'no one hears anything from there'?

Oh you must have meant Azad Kashmir - well nothing along the likes of what makes headlines in IOK occurs in AK with any regularity so there really isn't much to report, and consequently not much to hear.

But back to topic, and to answer your last response to me, I agree that if militants plant bombs to deliberately kill civilians then they are committing terrorism, just as the extrajudicial killings and torture of innocent civilians by the IA and other Indian security forces is also terrorism.


----------



## Goodperson

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> This entire thread is about occupied Kashmir, along with the Amnesty and HRW reports on atrocities by Indian occupation forces, so what do you mean 'no one hears anything from there'?
> 
> Oh you must have meant Azad Kashmir - well nothing along the likes of what makes headlines in IOK occurs in AK with any regularity so there really isn't much to report, and consequently not much to hear.
> 
> But back to topic, and to answer your last response to me, I agree that if militants plant bombs to deliberately kill civilians then they are committing terrorism, just as the extrajudicial killings and torture of innocent civilians by the IA and other Indian security forces is also terrorism.



AM please check the title of the thread is about an Army major martyred in Kashmir.


----------



## Aslan

The Heroics of The brave Indian Soldiers in Kashmir.



INDIAN ARMY GANG RAPE VICTIMS: Testimonies of Young and Old Women of Kashmir
By Majid A. Siraj 02/06/2002 At 06:17

SPECIAL NOTE - REALPLAYER VIDEOS OF THE VICTIMS STATEMENTS ARE AVAILABLE AT: 

http://www.kashmir.demon.co.uk/rape/
Testimonies of Young and old women of Kunan Pushpora Kashmir 

Gang rape victims 

It was one dreaded night when the village of Kunan Pushpora was attacked by a unit from the Indian army camped about ten miles from the village. All the men of the village were rounded up and locked away in a room of an empty house. The soldiers carried bootles of alcohol in their hands and were drinking, swearing and shouting.They had been in the village before, looking for militants. 

They turned the lights off and used torches to enter all the homes. When the carnage was over, around 60 women were found lying in their homes either unconsious or weeping in anguish and pain. They had been raped. The victims were old women as well as very young femal children who will now be facing problems for the rest of their lives, if they live this foray by the Indian army. Here we present the testimonies of some of the women who dared to come forward. 


I am Ziatun daughter of Abdul Rahim Dar. It was past midnight. My father was not in the house. I recall more than five soldiers entered my house and kicked open all doors. They turned towards me and pounced on my body like hounds and tore all my clothes. The lights went out and after that it was a never ending nightmare. I am unmarried and my future life looks very bleak. I will never recover from the trauma. Indian army look for militants. They knew I was innocent. 


My name is Nisara. My father Gulam Mohomad was dragged away by violent military men. We are two sisters in the house at the time. We were screaming for help and struggling at the same time from the brutal attacks from the alcohol smelling soldiers. The room was dark and the army men were shining torch lights. 
Both of us were raped in the room and we have no idea how many of these animals were coming and going in the house. We are both unmarried. 



My name is Atiqa Begam. I have four children. It was a bleak, cold night and we were all in bed and sleeping. We were woken up by a group of Indian soldiers who burst in smashing all door and utensils. My screaming children were thrown out through the window outside. 
They ransacked the house and came for me all with very harsh blows. I was half unconscious. They molested me in turns . I cannot recall how many people were in the house. 



I am an elderly woman. My name is Lassi Begam I have three grown up children. The eldest is a policeman. My daughter Saja is deaf and dumb This night of onslaught by Indian army all my doors were smashed. I showed them the police uniform of my son. They took no notice and in the most degraded manner assaulted me and my handicapped daughter. I have never known anything like this in my sixty years of life. I kept shouting, 'Where is our GOVERNMENT ? 

My name is Raja Begam. My husband answered the knock on the door . He did not return and next minute a gang of military men burst open into the bedroom, waving guns and bottles. We were frightened and screamed. All my children were muzzled with hand on their mouth and my clothes were pulled and torn. I was thrown on the ground with my head hitting the floor. I was gang raped by all the men in the room. I heard in my state of faint senses laughter and loud noises from the men. I have not recovered. 


I am Munira. My father is Juma Shiekh. I have 2 daughters. This night was like a terrible nightmare --BROKE DOWN 
I am Halima Begam. My husband Gulam Rasul was away. I heard this commotion in the village very late in the night. The dreaded noise came very near my house and all my doors were smashed. They were speaking to me in loud voice . I am not educated , I could not decipher what they said or wanted. Next thing I know they pounced upon me like vultures and molested me. I thought I had died. I and my husband are devastated . 


I am Rahimi Begam. I was alone in the house. I was petrified when they burst into my small house. I pleaded with them I am a poor woman , please do not harm me. I am innocent. They drank from their bottles and beat me up .. I was on the floor and before long I now realised they were attacking me sexually. I was wanting to die. I pleaded in my language I cried . That had no effect. I had , I reckon a hundred people in my house , on top of me, smothering me and molesting me. I was left in a coma. 

I am Jana Begam the widow of Lassa Dar. I have two sons. I was sleeping in my room with my daughter-in-law. we were woken up with loud noises from outside. Suddenly the door was kicked open. We were faced with a lot of Indian, violent, drunk soldiers. They waved bottles at us and threatened with their guns. We did not know what to say. They pounced upon us, threw us on the ground and assaulted both of us. This was the most degrading experience of my life. I wanted to die. Why? I asked have these people come to attack us? I was told they were looking for militants. We are innocent people , poor and live a sheltered life in this remote part of the world. I am still in shock and I never will recover. 


I am Shahmal. I am a mother of four and on this night I was alone in the house. We were all sleeping when the onslaught from the military woke us up. We all cried frightened. They tore my clothes off me and in the presence of my children, threw me on the floor and molested me. 


I am Jamila. I and my husband with three children were sleeping. It must have been midnight, they took my husband away and raped me in front of my children. We have been attacked four times so far. You come taking statements from us. What is the use? 


I am Zaina Begam wife of Jabbar Dar. My husband was grabbed, beaten up and carried away. They came back, ransacked the house, made noises ad drank from bottles. They hit me hard. I was unconscious. There was a big commotion in the village. We thought it was the end for all of us. The Police arrived the next day and took statements. Nothing has been done. We are suffering. 

My name is Zarifa Begam. My husband was away and my 5 children were sleeping. It was about 3 in the morning when two Indian soldiers broke open my bedroom door. I was gagged, beaten up and raped. My screams woke my children and they came in to help me. They were pushed into another room with guns and kicks and bolted. I have my whole body hurting from cuts. 

Sara Begam wife of Abdul Ahad deposed. It was midnight. I answered a knock on my door. Three men confronted me and shouted 'Hands up' in Hindi. I protested that I was alone and there were no militants in my house. They grabbed my hair, pulled it hard, ripped my clothes. What have I done? 'We have orders from our officers to do this.' They were violent, they were drunk and they were animals. The night was an ordeal. 

My name is Bakhti Begam. My husband is a tailor in the village. It was dead of night. They kicked the door open. They dragged the men from the house and molested us. We were very frightened and tried to struggle, but they beat us up very hard and threw us on the floor. We cannot relate details. 

My name is Zooni Begam. My husband Gulam Mohomad Dar was taken away by a group of Indian army in the middle of the night. We had cordon & search by army before, but they never found any guns or militants here. This time they came at night with a surprise and very angry looking. They grabbed hold of my clothes ripped them in pieces and the whole gang set themselves upon me. I suffocated. I could not breath. The aftermath was as if an earthquake had struck us. I have not recouped from the ordeal and never will . 

Men in the village were rounded up beaten and locked in a house , while the rampage of their homes and molestation of their homes went on. " Why do you treat us like this?" They asked. "We have orders to rape your women and destroy the village" The whole village was littered with empty bottles of alcohol. They behaved like animals. There were officers with them, because they had stripes on their uniforms. 

This young school-girl was also the victim of this hineous crime. 

I am the brother of the Numberdar the headman of the village. My name is Abdul Ahad Shiekh. The army unit is based about ten kilometres from Kunan Pushpora. This was the sixth time they attacked the village. In the past they have been getting everyone out on the road , line them up and search them, men women and children. Then they search the homes , even the animal sties and grain stores for weapons and militants . They never found anything. They have now destroyed the whole village. 

I am in the state police force. I was on duty when my officer informed me that I have leave to go home, because there has been trouble in my family. I came here and found that my own sister has been raped by the army . People are still coming to terms after a month of the event . On the morning after the carnage there were about sixty women laid helpless crying, fainted, and in distress. Victims old and young will suffer devastating consequences


IMC India - INDIAN ARMY GANG RAPE VICTIMS: Testimonies of Young and Old Women of Kashmir


----------



## pkd

Gaddafi on UN, Iraq, Kashmir... After being introduced in the General Assembly Hall as the leader of the revolution, the President of the African Union and the king of kings of Africa, Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi shattered protocol by giving a rambling speech that stretched for 90 minutes instead of the allotted 15

The main point of his speech was a demand for an African seat on the Security Council. He also said that Kashmir should be an independent entity. Here are some of the points made by the Libyan leader: 

Security Council is political feudalism for those who have a permanent seat. It should not be called the Security Council, it should be called the Terror Council. 

 Opening the doors of the UNSC for big powers would add more poverty, more injustice, more tension at the world level...There would be high competition between Italy, Germany, Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Philippines, Japan, Argentina, Brazil... 

 Waved aloft a copy of the UN charter and seemed to tear it up, saying he did not recognize the authority of the document 

 Kashmir should be an independent state, not Indian, not Pakistani. We should end this conflict. It should be a Baathist state between India and Pakistan 

 He suggested those who caused mass murder in Iraq must be tried, defended the right of the Taliban to establish an Islamic emirate, wondered whether swine flu was cooked up in a laboratory as a weapon 

 Demanded probe into the assassinations of John F Kennedy and Martin Luther King 

 Offered to move the UN headquarters to Libya because leaders coming here had to endure jet lag and because the understandable security against another attack on New York by the al-Qaeda was too stringent. NYT & PTI


----------



## R.A.W.

Let me tell something

Kashmir is the place where only 2 things happen. Either bomb blasts or protests or some nonsense. Tell me one Indians state where you do not find a case of rape or some sort of crime. 

Since there is nothing else in Kashmir to be reported this is the only thing that comes into picture which makes the people think that Kashmir is burning and the general sentiments of public are with Pakistan. I

I have been to Kashmir and have personally met many Kashmiris, worked with them. What I can say is I feel something cooking in between with people of Pakistan being so confident about Kashmiris voting for them. May be this may help us when Kashmir is forced for pebliciste. An ill informed enemy is always better in such a case otherwise Pakistan will never accept to do the pebliciste.

I think we will have the same with the completion of Operation Chanakya...


----------



## DaRk WaVe

blueoval79 said:


> ^^^^
> 
> 
> Well lady I did some search for you...:
> 
> Please go to this link and read...
> Human Rights watch report.....read fully ....
> 
> "Everyone Lives in Fear" | Human Rights Watch
> 
> It gives you both sides of the story...... And yes it Claims ..some figure on Army presence....and backs it up with a link to a Book......
> 
> But as far as I know...Pakistanis are not happy with human Rights group....they are not considered good in Pakistan...I wonder why this report by HRW ..holds so much ground in Pkaistan....even though Human Rights Activists are not respected and some times called names ..



read the NYT article & those posted by Jana again


----------



## civfanatic

gogbot said:


> Is that it ,JANA an unknown article from an unknown web site.


Well etalaat is a very well known kashmiri daily and WRT kashmir is very much worthy of citing as crediblr resource .


----------



## FireFighter

gogbot said:


> Is that it ,JANA an unknown article from an unknown web site.
> If India really was an evil occupation force it could do a lot worse that anything you describe.
> 
> In reality, What happens in Kashmir is very different.
> 
> No doubt The IA had some faults in its ability to maintain law and order.
> But An army was never meant to be a police force. a role that it must forcibly follow with army doctrine. Thus you see police brutality but in reality its not the police but the army. Thus army follows army doctrine.
> 
> The terrorist incursions further complicate situations on the Indian side.
> 
> And what about your occupied Kashmir, no one ever hears anything from there?


Here watch this video of Dr. Angana yourself if you believe that link is a hoax. 

If India is actually committed to peace, it needs to face ugly truths > Kashmir > MTV Iggy - Global Pop Culture, Music, Fashion, Photos, Social Changes, Leading Voices


----------



## paritosh

emo_girl said:


> The only Indian leader, i respect...



he is the only one worth respecting.


----------



## FireFighter

Goodperson said:


> AM please check the title of the thread is about an Army major martyred in Kashmir.




You are trying to address a Super Moderator on a Pakistan Defense forum on the etiquette of posting? 

Very poor thinking on your part, Gp. 

I have to remind you again that this thread will not gain any sympathy from any of the Pakistanis on the board and neither from the Moderators. You should be lucky we're allowing you to post his quote and quote "martyrdom" on this website. 

The Army major's heroics might constitute a martyr to you, but he's noting short of a hostile aggressor and oppressor recruited to further oppress the Kashmiris in our eyes. He died for no legitimate or justifiable cause- in fact his death is a waste of life. He will be in the deepest levels of hell along with the Pharoahs. 

However, at human level, my condolesences are with his family for losing their precious son on duty.


----------



## UnitedPak

Ruag said:


> Seriously... how can a mad clown "embarrass" the Republic of India?
> 
> These news outlets nowadays write anything so as to get the attention of viewers.




This 'mad clown' is building covert links with European nations like UK while at the same time promoting an African Union which he most likely plans on having considerable influence over.

That would make him a dangerous 'mad clown'.


----------



## Coolyo

Kashmir = Pakistan Zameen! Alhamdulillah!

Soon Indian Occupied Kashmir will be annexed into Pakistan, and our line of control will increase, Insha Allah!


----------



## Ruag

UnitedPak said:


> This 'mad clown' is building covert links with European nations like UK while at the same time promoting an African Union which he most likely plans on having considerable influence over.
> 
> That would make him a dangerous 'mad clown'.



Yup... that very same Gaddafi who was thrown out of his tent in New York - 

Gaddafi tent taken down at New York Trump estate | Stuff.co.nz

Ouch! That must have hurt! No wonder this clown is so angry. 

And what "covert links" between Libya and UK are you talking about? Are you talking about this - 

Gordon Brown snubs Colonel Gaddafi at UN over Lockerbie bomber - The Daily Record ?


----------



## EjazR

FireFighter said:


> The Army major's heroics might constitute a martyr to you, but he's noting short of a hostile aggressor and oppressor recruited to further oppress the Kashmiris in our eyes. He died for no legitimate or justifiable cause- in fact his death is a waste of life. He will be in the deepest levels of hell along with the Pharoahs.
> 
> However, at human level, my condolesences are with his family for losing their precious son on duty.



The people killed were Hizbul Mujahideen commander Pasha and Lashkar-e-Toiba member Moosa. Both were from Pakistan. Pasha carried a reward of Rs 10 lakh on his head. 

These militants were planning to (as they usually do) target civilians or govt. officials. They don't seek out IA or para-military to fight because they know they will get killed. 

The IA risks casualties by taking "pre-emptive" based on tip-offs given by locals. There was no local killed although there might have been building/house damage in the operation. According procedures, they should be paid compensation by the govt.

This is what happened atleast in this particular operation.


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## Spitfighter

Coolyo said:


> Kashmir = Pakistan Zameen! Alhamdulillah!
> 
> Soon Indian Occupied Kashmir will be annexed into Pakistan, and our line of control will increase, Insha Allah!



Not if we have anything to say about it.


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## EjazR

Spitfighter said:


> Not if we have anything to say about it.



Well, also if the people of J&K themselves have anything to say about it as well

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Halaku Khan

Asim Aquil said:


> Pakistanis would whole heartedly support such a deal. Remember all of Musharraf's proposals were rejected by India. They were even warmly received by Kashmiris, only Indians were rejecting every single proposal.




It appears that the consensus within the Pakistani establishment today is to reject and oppose the Musharraf proposals. 


> *Return to the back channel*
> Saturday, September 26, 2009
> Asif Ezdi
> 
> As a presidential candidate, Obama publicly acknowledged the importance of resolving Kashmir. His interest of course was not in getting the Kashmiris their rights, but in winning Pakistan's full cooperation in supporting the US war in Afghanistan. He even did some loud thinking about appointing Bill Clinton as a special envoy on Kashmir. India immediately shot down the idea and Obama quickly and quietly dropped it. Also, Obama kept Pakistan-India relations out of Holbrooke's mandate in deference to Indian wishes.
> 
> While rejecting any US role in Kashmir, Delhi also told Washington that the back-channel dialogue initiated by Musharraf and Manmohan Singh in 2005 offered the best way of moving towards a settlement of the Kashmir issue. Also, if Washington wanted to be helpful, it should persuade the new government in Islamabad to resume these negotiations from the point reached in March 2007, when Musharraf's downward spiral began, stalling finalisation of the deal.
> 
> Since Musharraf's fall, the resumption of the back-channel dialogue has been the central strand of the Manmohan Singh government's Kashmir policy. A proposal to pick up the thread was made by Delhi to the new government in Islamabad shortly after Musharraf's exit. Zardari hinted at his press conference on September 9, 2008, the day he took oath as president, that Pakistan was not just willing but keen to reactivate the back channel. "[Because of] back-channel diplomacy," he said, "there will be good news before the Congress-led government in India goes for the election [in 2009]."
> 
> The Bombay attacks in November upset this time-table but did not scuttle the plan. Even after Delhi suspended the composite dialogue, it continued working behind the scenes to get the back-channel going again, leaving the diplomatic footwork mainly to Washington. Delhi's skilful diplomacy, in which Washington has fronted for India, has now borne fruit. The government's decision to appoint former Foreign Secretary Riaz Mohammad Khan as Pakistan's new representative in the back-channel dialogue means that the process is in place, though it cannot start in earnest before the resumption of the composite dialogue. Publicly though, both sides are not saying much.
> 
> The important question now is whether, as India would like, the resumed back-channel talks would take place on the basis of the five-point agreement worked out under Musharraf. Its central point was that there would be no redrawing of the Line of Control (LoC), apart from some minor adjustments. The remaining clauses provided for devolution of power to the regional level; a gradual reduction of Indian troops as the militants scaled down their activities; cooperative management of resources such as water and glaciers; and soft borders.
> 
> In other words, India would get what it has always sought: the renunciation by the people of Kashmir of their struggle for azadi and recognition by Pakistan of India's occupation of Kashmir as permanent. All that the Kashmiris would get are some powers locally, more open trade and travel across the LoC and a promise of withdrawal of some troops conditional upon the good behaviour of the population.
> 
> This is the settlement that Musharraf wanted to impose on the Kashmiris and which Kasuri naïvely continues to tout enthusiastically. It is essentially nothing but a rehash of the autonomy agreements reached by Sheikh Abdullah with the difference that Pakistan will also now become a party. If this settlement is finalised, it will not extinguish the Kashmiri people's desire for freedom and will meet the same fate as the earlier deals.
> 
> What is at stake is not how much power is devolved to the State Assembly or how much trade takes place between the two parts of the state. That is not why more than 100,000 Kashmiris have laid down their lives. They did it to win freedom for Kashmir and to maintain a separate identity, not only of the present generation of Kashmiris but also of the countless generations yet to come. The people of Pakistan are pledged to support the Kashmiris in this struggle. The government must, therefore, repudiate the deal made by Musharraf. It must decide a fresh approach after holding free and frank consultations with the Kashmiri leadership and a national debate within Pakistan.
> 
> While the back-channel dialogue with Pakistan forms the central strand of Delhi's Kashmir policy, it also realises that Kashmiri representatives, including at least some from the APHC, will have to be associated with any settlement before it can be finalised. However, Delhi is wary of holding any talks held in a tripartite format involving the participation of Kashmiris without first ensuring the support of the Kashmiri representatives. To win this backing, Delhi has been working hard on a prior deal with the APHC. It is holding out to them the prospect of a share of power in the state government if they settle for enhanced autonomy within the Indian constitution.
> 
> With this in view, Delhi has reportedly held a series of secret meetings with the APHC leadership this summer. Delhi is pinning its hopes on the moderate faction led by Mirwaiz Farooq. However, he is holding back because of indication that support for his faction is slipping. This was demonstrated during the mass protest triggered last year at the decision of the Srinagar authorities to transfer land to the Amarnath shrine.
> 
> In an article in the daily Hindu (Sept 5), Praveen Swami, a well-informed journalist on Kashmir politics, also wrote about the "stark fact" that the "realists" (that is, those who "want a negotiated end to a battle they cannot win") have never been in a weaker political position. "Even in his old-city Srinagar heartland, Mirwaiz Farooq's repeated calls to pro-Islamist youth to end their now-routine clashes with the police have been ignored. Sajjad Lone's historic decision to fight the Baramulla Lok Sabha elections ended in an ignominious defeat," Swami wrote.
> 
> Given this strong pro-azadi sentiment, it is no wonder that the APHC would like to get a nod from Islamabad before sitting down at the negotiating table with Delhi. There are reports in the Indian media that Pakistan is being asked, presumably through Washington, to endorse the talks. Delhi's decision to allow Geelani to visit his son in Pakistan is also meant to conciliate Kashmiri opinion and win it over to a dialogue with Delhi on its terms.
> 
> Delhi also realises that for the back-channel dialogue on Kashmir to take place, the composite dialogue has to be resumed. Therefore, behind a smokescreen of tough talk to pacify its domestic opinion, Delhi has been lowering the bar it had set for the resumption of these talks. For some time, the only condition it has been demanding is that Hafiz Saeed should be prosecuted. On 18 September, in a further climb-down, Indian Home Minister Chidambaram said that even "half a step is a good step."
> 
> But the Indian Government cannot afford another storm of the kind that broke out after Sharm el-Sheikh. It is therefore doubtful that the arrest of Hafiz Saeed on charges which are not directly related to Bombay would be enough. Still, a breakthrough at the upcoming meeting of the Foreign Ministers of the two countries in New York cannot be ruled out. A failure will not be a tragedy though. In any case, there will be an opportunity for a summit-level meeting two months later at the Trinidad CHOGM.
> 
> The veteran Indian columnist Prem Shankar Jha wrote in December 2007 that the back-channel agreement "conceded 95 per cent of India's conditions." He was being conservative. Actually it is 99 per cent. In a fair compromise, each side gives ground in more or less equal amount but when one party concedes virtually everything, as Musharraf was prepared to do, there can be no other name for it than a sell-out.
> 
> Pakistan now has a chance to walk away from this shameful betrayal of the Kashmiri aspirations. This opportunity must be seized. The Government has already said "Yes" to back channel diplomacy. It must say no to the deal that Musharraf was about to make.
> 
> 
> 
> The writer is a former member of the Pakistan Foreign Service. Email: asifezdi@yahoo.com


----------



## DaRk WaVe

Reddy said:


> Like pakistan doing in Baluchistan.
> 
> Stop trolling



Dont compare Baluchistan with Kashmir, Baluchistan is not disputed territory


----------



## Comet

Reddy said:


> *Like pakistan doing in Baluchistan.*
> 
> Stop trolling



Yar why do you guys keep on bringing Baluchistan here. Why are you comparing Baluchistan with Kashmir?

1) Is Baluchistan an occupied territory?
2) Is Baluchistan under Army control?
3) Does Baluchistan has any resolution from UN?


----------



## jehangirhaider

Enough is enough from Indian participant on this forum, freedom to express here on defence.pk does not mean that you people make joke of us.Can some Pakistani member do like this on bharat rakshak, certainly not. What type of threads, these people opened there about Pakistan every one know about those. But here, they also want to dominant on us by using false language, blames and jokes about Pakistan. I don't think so, Moderator should revise their policy about Indians. I am strong supporter of freedom of expression but in limits for Indians.

What are the meanings of these lines? only blames, i think and jokes



> Like Pakistan doing in Baluchistan.Stop trolling





> Do you think only Muslim terrorists become martyrs ??


 by Reddy



> I think these people will get heaven and 72 virgins as per my Pakistani friends.


 by R.A.W


What these people want to prove? Some people are saying, those people who were killed by Indian army were Pakistani and bla bla.Totally nonsense. I think there should be no place for such thread about Indian Majors. If they want to discuss such thing then go to some Indian forum, allowing Indians on defence.pk only means to discuss to issues or defence related matter like defence tech. 

There is no use to of such thread about Indian Major, now this "defence.pk forum will used to show the identity,bravery and family background of every killed person of Indian army inside occupied Kashmir ?


----------



## dabong1

King Julien said:


> God will decide whether to punish or forgive them... however its our duty to fix their appointment with GOD..



The same goes for the indian major........"God will decide whether to punish or forgive them... however its our duty to fix his appointment with GOD


----------



## UnitedPak

EjazR said:


> Well, also if the people of J&K themselves have anything to say about it as well



I guess this is one of those one-liners that you know couldnt be further from the truth, but is simply meant to provoke reactions from others.

Its not a matter of "if" the J&K people have anything to say about it. They do. Indian Governments have used lethal force to silence them for decades. Maybe you should walk the talk on this one?


----------



## Omar1984

*Kashmiri separatists hail Kadhafi's UN marathon*


SRINAGAR, India &#8212; A marathon UN diatribe by Libya's Moamer Kadhafi may have been too much for other world leaders in the audience, but in Indian Kashmir it seems to have won him an enthusiastic fan base.

Kadhafi berated Western powers for an hour and 35 minutes from the General Assembly podium on Wednesday in a speech covering issues as diverse as John F. Kennedy's assassination, swine flu and his support for Kashmiri independence.

While a number of delegates found themselves unable to sit through the entire performance, separatist leaders far away in Indian Kashmir were united in praise for his ringing endorsement of their struggle.

"Kashmir should be an independent state, not Indian, not Pakistani. We should end this conflict," Kadhafi told the assembly.

His remarks were splashed over the front pages of Kashmir's leading dailies on Friday, as separatist leaders applauded.

"We hail this brave and valiant leader for his bold advocacy of Kashmiris? wishes and aspirations," said Yasin Malik, head of pro-independence political party the Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front.

"Such statements from international leaders provide solace and satisfaction to the oppressed people of Kashmir," said Malik.

Seen as one of the world's most dangerous flashpoints, Kashmir has been the trigger for two wars between India and Pakistan, who control divided portions of the region and claim the territory in full.

A 20-year armed separatist insurgency in the Indian-administered section has claimed 47,000 lives.

While some of the most powerful militant groups favour accession to Pakistan, the majority of Muslims in Indian Kashmir support independence from both the South Asian rivals.

"Independence is the only viable solution," said separatist leader Javed Mir.

Syed Ali Geelani, a hardline separatist, said the Libyan leader had set an example for others to follow.

"Not only Kadhafi, but the world leaders, especially those from Muslim nations, should play an active role in the resolution of the Kashmir issue," Geelani said.


AFP: Kashmiri separatists hail Kadhafi&#39;s UN marathon


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## s90

Whatever he says isnt valued at all  his delegation wrote a note to him to stop it


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## EjazR

UnitedPak said:


> I guess this is one of those one-liners that you know couldnt be further from the truth, but is simply meant to provoke reactions from others.
> 
> Its not a matter of "if" the J&K people have anything to say about it. They do. Indian Governments have used lethal force to silence them for decades. Maybe you should walk the talk on this one?



Well it was my personal opinion that the people of J&K have to *eventually* decide. I don't see what's wrong with that. As a democratic society we Indians have to agree to that. And Nehru had also stated the same. I was'nt intending to provoke any reaction there.

Also, from my interactions an from what I know, other than pro-India, pro-independence is the only other popular option in the valley area. Pro Pakistan support is quite low and in the border towns and villages. The people of Jammu and Ladakh, muslims and non-muslims are pro-India. 

One of the reason why the pro-independence option has been denied by the GoP since 1948. And was reiterated again in Shimla accord.

Nothing is stopping the separatists from contesting elections and proving their popularity. What could be more embarrassing to J&K govt. than Geelani winning the election?


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## Omar1984

EjazR said:


> Well it was my personal opinion that the people of J&K have to *eventually* decide. I don't see what's wrong with that. As a democratic society we Indians have to agree to that. And Nehru had also stated the same. I was'nt intending to provoke any reaction there.
> 
> Also, from my interactions an from what I know, other than pro-India, pro-independence is the only other popular option in the valley area. Pro Pakistan support is quite low and in the border towns and villages. The people of Jammu and Ladakh, muslims and non-muslims are pro-India.
> 
> One of the reason why the pro-independence option has been denied by the GoP since 1948. And was reiterated again in Shimla accord.
> 
> Nothing is stopping the separatists from contesting elections and proving their popularity. What could be more embarrassing to J&K govt. than Geelani winning the election?



Only the non-muslims and Kashmir's chief minister is pro-india.

If what you say is true, then why are there soooo many people saying "Kashmir Bane ga Pakistan" in this video from Indian Occupied Kashmir:


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## EjazR

Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - PMs Kashmir visit

Srinagar, Sep 25: As Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is scheduled to visit Kashmir next month, the mainstream camp, especially the ruling National Conference-Congress coalition, feel some serious thinking at the Track II level may restart the dialogue for the to resolution of Kashmir dispute.

Interestingly, Prime Ministers visit would coincide with many important developments including the issuance of passport to the Chairman of Hurriyat (G) Syed Ali Geelani, eagerness of the Chairman of Hurriyat (M) Mirwaiz Umar Farooq for talks with New Delhi and Shopian incident that still has a spark to trigger mass protests. 
The Prime Minister is expected to arrive in Kashmir anytime next month, sources in the Congress said.
Talking to Rising Kashmir, senior NC leader and Member Parliament from South Kashmir Mehboob Beg said NC was doing what it had promised.
*I dont believe in separatism but at the same time nobody can deny the fact that Kashmir is an issue and needs to be resolved, Beg said. No doubt Prime Ministers visit coincides with many important things, especially issuance of passport to Geelani sahib. Let Geelani sahib visit Pakistan and put forth his viewpoint before the people of Pakistan.*
Asserting that NC was acting as a strong facilitator between separatists and New Delhi, the NC MP said: Mirwaiz has gone to attend the OIC meet. Let there be a consensus as on the resolution of Kashmir issue. We hope Prime Minister will seriously invite all alienated groups for talks. If Mirwaiz resumes dialogue process with New Delhi, nothing like that.
*On Jumat-ul-Vida (the last Friday of the fasting month of Ramadan), Mirwaiz expressed his willingness to enter into meaningful dialogue with New Delhi.*
A senior NC leader wishing anonymity said Pakistan and India are feeling an urge to resolve Kashmir issue.
On whether something was taking place behind the screen, he said a sense of urgency was prevailing among the leadership of both the nuclear powers about Kashmir. Both nations have understood that without Kashmir resolution peace in entire South Asia is impossible.
*However, NC insiders reveal that it seems that India and Pakistan had reached to a level of understanding at the Track II level. We call that back channel diplomacy, an NC insider said.*
Opposition Peoples Democratic Party is also waiting eagerly for the Prime Minister to visit Kashmir. We have supported the dialogue process from day one. All stake holders should be taken onboard, PDP President Mahbooba Mufti told Rising Kashmir. Mufti Muhammad Sayeed recently discussed self-rule proposal with the Prime Minister. We hope to hear a word from Prime Minister on it.
About the issuance of passport to Geelani, Mahbooba said it was a good sign.
On whether India and Pakistan were heading toward Kashmir resolution, the PDP President said: I feel something concrete is taking place between the leadership of the two countries.
Ruling Congress also believes that prime ministers main aim behind visiting Kashmir would be to prepare a ground for resumption of dialogue process. We have been supporting the dialogue from 1947. Prime Minister will definitely invite all groups for talks, said Congress chief spokesman and Vice President Muhammad Muzaffar Parray.
*Another senior Congress leader and MLC Abdul Gani Vakil said: The new government in Pakistan seems flexible so are the prime minister and the other leadership at New Delhi.*
Vakil said the prime ministers Kashmir visit would be very important. His agenda will be development of the State and to bring smiles on the faces of disgruntled leadership, who want to be part of the dialogue process.


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## advaita

Oh this guy. Who is the poor man taking this torture..... I can sympathise with him.

Libyans have no future outside of oil and he is talking of being equal.... Lets see if libyans live to see equality and Kashmir.

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## EjazR

@Omar

I think I replied to the same video before. Geelani is the least popular of all sepratist leaders. They are like the JI in Pakistan. How much support JI has there? So comparitively it has even less support among Kashmiris. Also this was the time of Amarnath issue and BJP agitators doing their road blockade.

Mirwaiz Umar Farroz s far more popular and is pro-Independence. Ofcourse that doesn't mean it has a vocal core group in the towns of shopian and sopore. These have been the towns that were worst hit by violence since 89. 

Again, nobody is stopping Geelani from contesting an election to prove his popularity.


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## EjazR

advaita said:


>


That picture is hilarious


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## EjazR

Are displaced Kashmiri Hindus returning to their homeland? | Reuters|

Posted by: Sheikh Mushtaq
*Tens of thousands of Kashmiri Hindus, locally known as Pandits, fled their ancestral homes in droves 20 years ago after a bloody rebellion broke out against New Delhi&#8217;s rule in India&#8217;s only Muslim-majority state.*

Now encouraged by the sharp decline in rebel violence across the Himalayan region, authorities have formally launched plans to help Pandits return home.

Will Pandits, who say they &#8220;live in exile in different parts of their own country&#8221; return to their homeland in Kashmir where two decades of violence has left nothing untouched and brought misery to the scenic region, its people and its once easy-going society?

Earlier this month, the government constituted a high level committee led by Kashmir&#8217;s Revenue Minister, Raman Bhalla, which will monitor the return of displaced Hindus and effective implementation of New Delhi&#8217;s rehabilitation package which includes financial assistance of 750,000 rupees for house construction.

*The initiative is driven by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh&#8217;s package of 16,000 million rupees last year for the return and rehabilitation of Kashmiri Hindus living as migrants in several parts of the country, mostly in Jammu, the Hindu-dominated winter capital of the state.*

Many Hindus who fled Kashmir have sold their homes or lost their kin in the violence that has also killed more than 47, 000 people including Muslim militants and civilians.

Some Pandit groups who have opposed the initiative are demanding a separate, guarded homeland within the Kashmir Valley while others complained that authorities are not meeting their security concerns.

In the largest migration since the 1947 partition of the subcontinent into mainly Hindu India and Islamic Pakistan, nearly 250,000 Kashmiri Pandits left for safer places in India after a bloody insurgency broke out in 1989.

In the past, Pandits have been deterred by a series of attacks by suspected militants. At least 209 Hindus have been also killed since 1989.

*Though Kashmiri separatists have made fresh appeals urging Hindus to return to the Valley, they have asked them to live side by side with Muslims rather than in &#8220;security zones&#8221;.*

*Bhalla says 15,000 families have agreed to return and at least 200 apartments have been contracted so far.*

Will Kashmiri Pandits return to their homes in Kashmir, where still almost daily gun battles, between troops and Muslim rebels, and occasional bomb explosions take place?





(PHOTO: A Kashmiri Pandit holds a lighted earthen lamp at a shrine in Khirbhawani, 30 km east of Srinagar May 31, 2009. REUTERS/Danish Ismail)


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## Musalman

FireFighter said:


> EjazR
> 
> 
> 
> Being a Muslim do you think these Indian Army personal are actually ''martyrs"?



Come on yaar, these Indian Muslims are pretty apologetic people.


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## gubbi

RIP Major Suresh Suri. 
And two undesirable scumbags sent packing to find their (sic) eternal rewards. Good riddance, I say!
Friends, Countrymen, Indians:
Lets just pay our respects to the braves in uniform for their ultimate sacrifice in the line of duty! Unlike some who do it for some moronic ideology!
And just ignore the hatemongers, the naysayers, the ungrateful. Keep a check on your emotions, refrain from feeding those who got an unreachable itch to troll, and try to stick to the topic!

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## Nemesis

> As per your above statement, the Indian soldiers who are terrorizing the Indian Occupied Kashmiri's through raping them, then killing them, killing people in fake encounters, torturing people can clearly be classified as terrorist, so i think the Indian soldiers should be killed too.



No, because India is not terrorizing the Kashmiri population. Stray incidences of rape, murder, encounters are examples of human rights violations, not terrorism. Personnel who engage in these human rights violations are more often than not, rightly punished.

Please do not expect Indians to swallow Pakistani propaganda on Kashmir.


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## TaimiKhan

Nemesis said:


> No, because India is not terrorizing the Kashmiri population. Stray incidences of rape, murder, encounters are examples of human rights violations, not terrorism. Personnel who engage in these human rights violations are more often than not, rightly punished.
> 
> Please do not expect Indians to swallow Pakistani propaganda on Kashmir.



Pakistani propaganda ??? Sir you seriously need to do some study & research as who & who say what & what about Indian atrocities in Kashmir.

Stray incidences ?????? you must be joking.


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## R.A.W.

taimikhan said:


> Pakistani propaganda ??? Sir you seriously need to do some study & research as who & who say what & what about Indian atrocities in Kashmir.
> 
> Stray incidences ?????? you must be joking.



Let me add some fuel to this conspiracy.

One day or the other we are going for a pebliciste that is for sure. So such a thing to take place Pakistan should be sure that they are going to win it and should ask for the same. Project minor incidents to higher level to make Pakistan believe it. Make a propaganda for the Pakistan so that they come into belief.Give them a feel as if whole of Kashmir is burning and no one wants to be with india 

This is just my theory based upon the interaction with Kashmiris which are quite a few and their views about India and Pakistan. So i feel something cooking. No offenses intended.


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## sadiqams

I think he is not a martyr but considered a terrorist by the majority of kashmir =i peoples.

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## Nemesis

> Pakistani propaganda ??? Sir you seriously need to do some study & research as who & who say what & what about Indian atrocities in Kashmir.



We Indians do not deny that there are Human rights violations in Kashmir, these are not acts of terrorism. Terrorism would imply that it is a state sponsored policy. It is not. and yes, stray incidences of human right violations. 

Don't ask me to do more research, i'm well aware of the situation in Kashmir. Perhaps you should consider the possibility that someone who has actually visited Kashmir would have a better idea of the situation on the ground. 

The only terrorists in Kashmir are those who come in from the other side of the L.O.C. They engage in acts of violence directed at both the army and the civilian population and hence are rightly hated by all (Civilians and army personnel alike). You are aware that the indigenous militant movement in Kashmir - The JKLF - renounced violence right?


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## PAFAce

Nemesis said:


> Don't ask me to do more research, i'm well aware of the situation in Kashmir. Perhaps you should consider the possibility that someone who has actually visited Kashmir would have a better idea of the situation on the ground.
> 
> The only terrorists in Kashmir are those who come in from the other side of the L.O.C. They engage in acts of violence directed at both the army and the civilian population and hence are rightly hated by all (Civilians and army personnel alike). You are aware that the indigenous militant movement in Kashmir - The JKLF - renounced violence right?


Now see, you say you've been to Kashmir, and in the second paragraph, you prove yourself wrong. Take it from someone who has family in Kashmir, "terrorists" or "freedom fighters", whatever you want to call them, have strong, very strong, support from the locals in about 80-90% of the region. Maybe you visited an Indian Army base or something, and think that's how all of Kashmir is.

I'm glad you mentioned JKLF. Yes, their leadership renounced violence, but exactly because of Indian aggression. They realized that for every Indian soldier they killed, several innocent Kashmiris were murdered. It wasn't a fair fight, so the leaders backed-off, but the JKLF is not a corporation where, if the heads decide to shut down the business, then the business no longer runs. Elements of JKLF are against peaceful means, since there are no more Mohandas Gandhis in India anymore.

Now, why are we discussing this? This Major was killed doing his duty, that is noble. It's not wrong to respect him, but it's wrong to drool all over him and call him a national hero because he helped the Indian state's continued aggression on and oppression of a people simply for a chunk of land. That is all.


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## qsaark

> Now, why are we discussing this? This Major was killed doing his duty, that is noble. It's not wrong to respect him, but it's wrong to drool all over him and call him a national hero because he helped the Indian state's continued aggression on and oppression of a people simply for a chunk of land. That is all.


This is called &#8220;extreme patriotism&#8221;. This topic was brought up for the very same reason we start up threads where we talk about our soldiers who fought gallantly and embraced shahdat in the line of duty. I still remember that thread where we talked about the four SSG folks who were captured by the TTP. Even though no one knows for sure under which circumstances they died, but they were praised for their hypothetical killing of 10 TTP terrorists before they finally got killed. There was no proof of any sort if any such heroic struggle ever took place but based on assumptions and interviews from their loved ones and comrades, we praised as if it really happened.

Nations like to praise their soldiers, even if they died while running and receiving a bullet in their backs. This is all right even though not very logical.

Now the Major is a hero for his country, and for his nation since Kashmir was always the part of India. By the way, we are also fighting for the very same &#8216;chunk of land&#8217;. We are not doing it for the love of the Muslim Kashmiris. If it was about the Muslims, why we did not struggle for the State of HyderAbad and Junagarh and Manavader?


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## SSGPA1

R.A.W. said:


> In India you are not a Muslim or a Hindu. When you die... you die for India.. You are an Indian when your body is covered with Tiranga then being a Muslim or Hindu.





wah wah - bari achi baat ki - shabaash - Muslims are good till they die for India but the same Muslims are bad when they prosper in Gujrat. 

Now go and tell this to Adavni who is asking to create Ram mandir over Babari Masjid 

Don't forget to share your POV with terrorists like Modi and Thakhary. 

While you are on this trip, also include, those Hindu terrorists who raped Christian nuns last year.

BTW, Sikhs in Canada openly call bhendarwala sahib a hero along with Bay Anat Singh and others.


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## SSGPA1

Nemesis said:


> We Indians do not deny that there are Human rights violations in Kashmir, these are not acts of terrorism. Terrorism would imply that it is a state sponsored policy. It is not. and yes, stray incidences of human right violations.



So if this is not State sponsered terrorism then the genocide of Muslims in Gujrat must qualify for that. Right??

For you, Indians can't do wrong and it is the fault of everybody else. My suggestion is to start realizing what the Kashmiris want otherwise you will lose more then Kashmir!


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## PAFAce

qsaark said:


> By the way, we are also fighting for the very same chunk of land. We are not doing it for the love of the Muslim Kashmiris. If it was about the Muslims, why we did not struggle for the State of HyderAbad and Junagarh and Manavader?


Maybe not for Muslims, but definitely for Kashmiris. They are struggling for what we (my ancestors, and maybe yours) did, and their desires are the same as ours, freedom in a land of their own, amongst their own people. I understand your point, but we are not fighting for a chunk of land. We are fighting with the people to whom that chunk of land belongs to. Not the same thing at all, not even close. We didn't struggle for Hyderabad because the people did not struggle for the same cause. They waited there for the rest of us to do something, whereas the Kashmiris didn't, they fought tooth and nail, and continue to do so. Again, I can't stress enough, India and Pakistan relative to Kashmir, not the same deal at all. I am sad that you, a poster whom I respect so much, feels this way.


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## dabong1

gubbi said:


> RIP Major Suresh Suri.
> And two undesirable scumbags sent packing to find their (sic) eternal rewards. Good riddance, I say!



:Mod Edit: 



gubbi said:


> Friends, Countrymen, Indians:
> Lets just pay our respects to the braves in uniform for their ultimate sacrifice in the line of duty! Unlike some who do it for some moronic ideology!



And the kashmiris will be paying there respects to the two brave freedom fighters who sacrificed there lifes for freedom......let the indian army follow there evil ways in kashmir but the freedom fighters will always be there to protect the people from these disgusting vile occupation "army".




gubbi said:


> And just ignore the hatemongers, the naysayers, the ungrateful. Keep a check on your emotions, refrain from feeding those who got an unreachable itch to troll, and try to stick to the topic!



Take your own advice.


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## qsaark

PAFAce said:


> Maybe not for Muslims, but definitely for Kashmiris. They are struggling for what we (my ancestors, and maybe yours) did, and their desires are the same as ours, freedom in a land of their own, amongst their own people. I understand your point, but we are not fighting for a chunk of land. We are fighting with the people to whom that chunk of land belongs to. Not the same thing at all, not even close. We didn't struggle for Hyderabad because the people did not struggle for the same cause. They waited there for the rest of us to do something, whereas the Kashmiris didn't, they fought tooth and nail, and continue to do so. Again, I can't stress enough, India and Pakistan relative to Kashmir, not the same deal at all. I am sad that you, a poster whom I respect so much, feels this way.


&#8220;Maybe not for Muslims, but definitely for Kashmiris&#8221;. Why is that? The &#8216;Two Nation Theory&#8217; was the basis of the partition, was it not? If the theory was correct, why we decided to help the Kashmiris but left the Muslims of HyderAbad, Junagarh and Manavader on their own? What was so special about the Kashmiris? I tell you what was so special. Special was the region where they live. Special is the source of fresh water Kashmir has. If Kashmir was a desert, you think we were so eager to help them?

When we sent in our troops back in 1948, it was the Pakistan Army and the Lashkaris (the tribal folks) who fought tooth to nail not the Kashmiris (few exceptions were there). Similarly when Pakistan started a covert operation in the valley in 1965 (The Op. Gibraltar), most of our fine men were got arrested and/or killed by the Indian Army on the 'lead' of no one else but the same Kashmiris for who&#8217;s liberation those men were sent in.

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## Nemesis

> Now see, you say you've been to Kashmir, and in the second paragraph, you prove yourself wrong. Take it from someone who has family in Kashmir, "terrorists" or "freedom fighters", whatever you want to call them, have strong, very strong



Very strong support? That's totally incorrect. If it were true then why do the locals themselves give tip-offs to the Indian army about their presence? No one supports the terrorists who cross the line of control. 



> support from the locals in about 80-90&#37; of the region.



No they have no support. Not even in Srinagar where anti-Indian feeling is high. The locals themselves are sick of violence. 

Why would they support militants - whose entire aim is to make Kashmir a part of Pakistan - when even most ardent anti-Indians favour independence from both Indian and Pakistan? 



> , Maybe you visited an Indian Army base or something, and think that's how all of Kashmir is.



I've visited ladakh and Srinagar. 



> I'm glad you mentioned JKLF. Yes, their leadership renounced violence, but exactly because of Indian aggression. They realized that for every Indian soldier they killed, several innocent Kashmiris were murdered. It wasn't a fair fight, so the leaders backed-off, but the JKLF is not a corporation where, if the heads decide to shut down the business, then the business no longer runs.



The majority of militants active in Kashmir are not indigenous but have crossed over from the L.O.C. 



> So if this is not State sponsered terrorism then the genocide of Muslims in Gujrat must qualify for that. Right??



What the hell does Gujarat have to do with a thread regarding the death of a major in Kashmir? 



> or you, Indians can't do wrong and it is the fault of everybody else. My suggestion is to start realizing what the Kashmiris want



Kashmiris either want to become independent or stay with India. 



> otherwise you will lose more then Kashmir!


 
Look dude, my advice to you is to try and bait someone else. If you don't have anything worthwhile to say, don't say anything at all.


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## deep.ocean

Now, Kashmiri Gujjars invite Rahul Gandhi to their homes- Hindustan Times


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## graphican

That is Interesting.. This guys is doing something which Mahatma Gandhi might have done. Here in Pakistan, no dam politician can imagine mixing with poor people because they stink, they are full of germs, they dont look pretty and of course are invaluable. Its good to see somebody in south Asia breaking barriers between himself and the actual people of the country.

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## gogbot

_I am surprised that an Indian politician is getting a positive compliment_


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## deep.ocean

Rightly said Graphican, we all are getting more sophisticated day by day and leaving poor and weak people alone as they don't exist.. I can say its good step by Rahul to be deep-rooted with the reality. I can smell a good leader is not far away from reality..


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## hack

graphican said:


> That is Interesting.. This guys is doing something which Mahatma Gandhi might have done. Here in Pakistan, no dam politician can imagine mixing with poor people because they stink, they are full of germs, they dont look pretty and of course are invaluable. Its good to see somebody in south Asia breaking barriers between himself and the actual people of the country.



Do you know what Harry Reid(our great Senate Majority leader) said as justification to make the visitors centre in Washington?...that it is necessary to keep normal people out of the senate halls as they stink.

Looks like it is normal behavior for politicians.


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## hack

Storm Force said:


> I once read that For India to give way the whole of Kashmir away was like a daggar to its heart.
> 
> Give away the massive strategic advantage and have both china & pakistan right on top looking down into indian plains from great height.
> 
> Lose the control of water from himlayers indian sub continent life line
> 
> and the horrendus humilation internationally for losing huge land to their neighbour.
> 
> Lose Kashmir and india will fall like a deck of cards.
> 
> No sane indian will ever let this come even close regardless of whose involved.



I agree with every line...if Musharaff's proposal to make the LOC porus is agreed to that means effectively India's border will be right next to Delhi. India will stick to status quo come what may.


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## Omar1984

From the article:



> "The Gujjars of Jammu and Kashmir today extended an exclusive invitation to Congress general secretary and Lok Sabha MP Rahul Gandhi to visit the state and stay with them in their tribal huts and nomadic 'dharas' (temporary shelters)," a statement from the organisation said.
> 
> Javaid Rahi, national secretary of the foundation, said: "To feel the plight and dilemma of our tribal life, which is identical to the life of Dalits in India, we urge Rahul Gandhi to visit us."
> 
> He said that Gandhi should be part of Gujjar community's "toughest nomadic life for at least a day and a night".
> 
> "It is another unfortunate part of our life that we - the Muslim Gujjars - are living a marginalized and stigmatized life since 1947 in this Muslim majority state," the letter says



I'm also a Muslim Gujjar. My ancestral village in Northern Punjab of Pakistan is not that far from Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir.

In Pakistan, Gujjars are living a good life especially in Punjab province, Azad Kashmir, and even in NWFP. Other tribes/ethnic groups give us a lot of respect.

Traditionally, the two main tribes in Punjab (atleast in Pakistan's side) were Gujjars and Jatts. Many cities in Punjab province of Pakistan are named after Gujjars like Gujranwala and Gujrat. The person who came up with the name, Pakistan, in 1933 was Gujjar, Choudhary Rahmat Ali.

Its sad the Muslim Gujjars in Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir are treated so badly.


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## EjazR

Many members can't seem to believe why major majority of the Kashmirs are against militants. 

Just to clarify once again, there was no large scale violence in Kashmir until 1989. One of the most prominent and first acts of terrorism was kidnapping the unmarried daughter of Mufti Sayeed a Kashmiri leaders in exchange for the release of other terrorists. 1989 kidnapping of Rubaiya Sayeed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Is this how a muslim is suppose to behave? It it completely Unislamic and insult to the noble concept of jihad! Right then Kashmirs were disgusted by the actions of JKLF. And now that JKLF have themselves renounced violence, who is coming here to fight then?
Of course the IA, and more specifically the paras have abused human rights at times. These should be punished with the strictest punishment possible,* there should be no respect or leniency for someone in the security forces that does not respect the very citizens he is suppose to protect and defend*.

Also, most of these operations are carried out by the J&K police which is Muslim majority, similarly there are even Kashmirs who are martyred in this anti-terrorist operations as well defending THEIR land against these extremists.

Now coming to the 1950s, there is no doubt at all that Sheikh Abdulla was by far the MOST popular leader in J&K. Granted that in some areas around Mirpur, Muslim league had support. But the valley were the majoirty of the population lived was solidly behind Sheikh Abdulla. Even the hindus and Buddhist supported Abdulla because of his pro-poor policies.
And there is a strong case to believe that had a plebiscite been conducted right then, the people would have followed Abdulla's lead.

And what did he think about Muslim league? Reading his speech in 1951 to the J&K legislative assemble will shed light on this Excerpts from Sheikh Abdullah's Opening Address to the J&K Constituent Assembly, 5 November 1951

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## eastwatch

R.A.W. said:


> Let me add some fuel to this conspiracy.
> 
> One day or the other we are going for a pebliciste that is for sure. So such a thing to take place Pakistan should be sure that they are going to win it and should ask for the same. Project minor incidents to higher level to make Pakistan believe it. Make a propaganda for the Pakistan so that they come into belief.Give them a feel as if whole of Kashmir is burning and no one wants to be with india
> 
> This is just my theory based upon the interaction with Kashmiris which are quite a few and their views about India and Pakistan. So i feel something cooking. No offenses intended.


A plebiscite, if held, will also involve the population living in the Pakistan controlled Azad Kashmir. Does India have a chance to get more than 50% of all Kashmiri votes? I think, it will be quite difficult.


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## EjazR

*Woman kills militant in Jammu and Kashmir*

Jammu, Sep 28 (IANS)* In what may be the first ever such act of resistance against militants in Jammu and Kashmir, a young woman in Rajouri district killed one militant and injured and drove away two others who had barged into her house and tried to abduct her, police said Monday.*
Rashida Begum and her husband Noor Mohammad were sleeping in their house in Shadhara village in Thanna Mandi area of the district, about 190 km north-east of Jammu, when a group of three militants barged into their house late Sunday night, police in Rajouri said.

As the militants, armed with automatic assault rifles, demanded the woman be handed over to them and threatened Noor Mohammad, *Rashida picked up an axe and hit one militant, killing him. A violent scuffle ensued, in which another militant was injured. The two remaining militants fled, but not before Rashida and her husband snatched the weapon of one of them.*

Police officials in the district have commended Rashida&#8217;s courage.

&#8220;This is a great act by the woman,&#8221; a police official said

Woman kills militant in Jammu and Kashmir

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## Hulk

This women should be awarded for her act. Make sure her bravery is recognized all over. I salute her, police should also provide her protection. The so called freedom fighters will not hesitate to attack her family like cowards.


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## blueoval79

Excellent news........soon we will se a whole population standing against these terrorists....

God bless this brave women.....



wait ...did i hear ... indian propoganda......hmmmm


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## ek_indian

Before someone call this an Indian/Hindu propoganda, I salute the women for her sheer bravery. _Clock is ticking_. We will see what becomes of these so called "freedom fighters" who tried to do this low level act as abduction.

Though offtopic but I can't resist myself putting this:
*Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and God. *

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## UnitedPak

ek_indian said:


> Before someone call this an Indian/Hindu propoganda, I salute the women for her sheer bravery. _Clock is ticking_. We will see what becomes of these so called "freedom fighters" who tried to do this low level act as abduction.
> 
> Though offtopic but I can't resist myself putting this:
> *Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and God. *



Those people were not "freedom fighters". They were kidnappers and terrorists (clearly evident by the fact that they tried to kidnap and kill civilians). Get your labelling right next time.
















These are the *freedom fighters*. I guess to you they look like LeT agents?

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## Spring Onion

As usual the Orange Indian media at work.

Just look at the details of this news story.

A woman succeeded in killing a 'militant" with an axe .

The woman and her husband snatched the weapons from "Militants"

 well the highly trained, highly equipped Indian army hardly kills these "highly trained militants" without suffering any casualties or injury. And look at this news an armless woman killed a militant lolzz


It clearly shows the men were ordinary criminals NOT freedom fighters.


When will Indians learn to behave like real men stop such cheap propaganda.


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## ek_indian

Jana said:


> A woman succeeded in killing a 'militant" with an axe .



What is so strange in this?



Jana said:


> The woman and her husband snatched the weapons from "Militants"



You are dreaming I guess. It is nowhere written that women snatched the axe from militant. Please read the article. Here is the details:

_As the militants, armed with automatic assault rifles, demanded the woman be handed over to them and threatened Noor Mohammad, Rashida *picked* up an axe and hit one militant, killing him. A violent scuffle ensued, in which another militant was injured. The two remaining militants fled, but not before Rashida and her husband snatched the weapon of one of them. _

Woman kills militant in Jammu and Kashmir

People are replying without reading the article I see.

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## EjazR

*@UnitedPAk*

JKLF has renounced violence so no I don't expect these militants to be from the JKLF.
These militants are the TTP clones like LeT, Harkatul Ansar, Hizb and all the assorted members of the *united fake-jihad council* which was/is based in muzaffarabad. They are nothing but terrorists just like TTP.
Infact, local Kashmirs like these women and men are fighting the true Jihad.

*@Jana*
The news feed is from IANS, they are a news service agency like reuters and AP and have to be reliable as they don't depend on add revenue. Not like zeenews or star news. You can very well expect all the other news channels to start reporting this in a few hours / days.

And what can you expect from militants like these, they probably didnt expect a woman to fight back. It is the first time a woman has killed a militant afaik and as per police officials

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

qsaark said:


> &#8220;Maybe not for Muslims, but definitely for Kashmiris&#8221;. Why is that? The &#8216;Two Nation Theory&#8217; was the basis of the partition, was it not? If the theory was correct, why we decided to help the Kashmiris but left the Muslims of HyderAbad, Junagarh and Manavader on their own?


Pakistan was conceived as a homeland for Muslims, that does not mean we drag every Muslim in South Asia kicking and screaming into Pakistan - there were those who embraced the idea of Pakistan and immigrated there, and others who did not and stayed where they were due to whatever compulsions they had.

Pakistan's responsibility is to fight for those that chose her, and those that were denied the right, as much as is possible.

And Pakistan did protest the forcible annexations of Junagadh, Munavadh and Hyderaba into India, but the reality of the situation was that Pakistan was in no position to militarily impact those states and therefore defend our interests and those of the people of those states (in case they chose to join Pakistan), nor were all of those states Muslim majority, which meant that a plebiscite (which the rule sof partition indicated had to be employed in disputed accessions) would have gone against Pakistan in any case.



> If Kashmir was a desert, you think we were so eager to help them?


Yes - we fought over the Rann of Kutch and Siachen did we not? But it is also true that in all three of those cases, Kashmir, Rann of Kutch and Siachen, we were able to militarily contest our rights. 



> When we sent in our troops back in 1948, it was the Pakistan Army and the Lashkaris (the tribal folks) who fought tooth to nail not the Kashmiris (few exceptions were there). Similarly when Pakistan started a covert operation in the valley in 1965 (The Op. Gibraltar), most of our fine men were got arrested and/or killed by the Indian Army on the 'lead' of no one else but the same Kashmiris for who&#8217;s liberation those men were sent in.


You ignore the fact that there was already an indigenous rebellion against the Maharajah in various parts of Kashmir, which he brutally attempted to suppress, which was the catalyst for the Tribal invasion.

Operation Gibraltar was an ill conceived operation, and it would have only taken a few to *** out the covert operation - it says little about whether the Kashmiris would choose Pakistan or India if offered the opportunity to select in a free, fair and impartially plebiscite.


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## Spring Onion

ek_indian said:


> What is so strange in this?
> 
> 
> 
> You are dreaming I guess. It is nowhere written that women snatched the axe from militant. Please read the article. Here is the details:
> 
> _As the militants, armed with automatic assault rifles, demanded the woman be handed over to them and threatened Noor Mohammad, Rashida *picked* up an axe and hit one militant, killing him. A violent scuffle ensued, in which another militant was injured. The two remaining militants fled, but not before Rashida and her husband snatched the weapon of one of them. _
> 
> Woman kills militant in Jammu and Kashmir
> 
> People are replying without reading the article I see.




I think you are the one who had not read the concocted news let me post it for you again and kindly read it with open eyes this time.





EjazR said:


> *Woman kills militant in Jammu and Kashmir*
> 
> Jammu, Sep 28 (IANS)* In what may be the first ever such act of resistance against militants in Jammu and Kashmir, a young woman in Rajouri district killed one militant and injured and drove away two others who had barged into her house and tried to abduct her, police said Monday.*
> Rashida Begum and her husband Noor Mohammad were sleeping in their house in Shadhara village in Thanna Mandi area of the district, about 190 km north-east of Jammu, when a group of three militants barged into their house late Sunday night, police in Rajouri said.
> 
> As the militants, armed with automatic assault rifles, demanded the woman be handed over to them and threatened Noor Mohammad, *Rashida picked up an axe and hit one militant, killing him. A violent scuffle ensued, in which another militant was injured. The two remaining militants fled, but not before Rashida and her husband snatched the weapon of one of them.*
> 
> Police officials in the district have commended Rashida&#8217;s courage.
> 
> &#8220;This is a great act by the woman,&#8221; a police official said
> 
> Woman kills militant in Jammu and Kashmir



lolzz



@EjazR: i know IANS is new service agency but It is INDIAN NEWS Serivce agency. They know very well what kind of masala news increases the readership of Indian newspapers and mediaoutlet.

Just read my earlier post Ejaz and tell me honestly, can it be true that a armless woman killed a "highly trained militants/freedom fighter" and non of the woman and her husband got any critical injury and isnt it a joke that the woman and her husband had snatched the weapons from the remaining two "highly trained militants"????

The militants as per Indian news report were having highly sophysticated automatic weapons but they did not use them when their fellow was killed and they so easily gave up their weapons 

 

This shows that Indian media is just lieng about they being militants/fighters. It is understandable that they were criminals, thieves NOT fighters.


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## EjazR

^^^
There is IA and paramilitary forces all over J&K. These militants have to run and hide from them. As soon as an alarm is raised neighbors and paras come in and of course the militants want to run as soon as possible. So the surprise of the woman attacking along with an alarm raised for police and paras coming after them would have just made them run as soon as possible. I guess you haven't really followed militancy in Kashmir as much as I have to realize how much of cowards these can be.

Now ofcourse I can't 100&#37; confirm this as I was not there. But IANS and PTI are two Indian news services that don't NEED masala to improve their TRP ratings. They have to be credible because other organizations PAY them to just provide news like reuters and AP. So I would give this credence until proven otherwise.
Maybe we will see interviews from her later to find out what happened.

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## EjazR

Alternate source _News Agency of Kashmir_
Woman hacks militant to death in Rajouri
Rajouri, Sep 28 (NAK): In one of the rarest cases a woman hacked a militant to death and forced two others to flee in injured condition in border district or Rajouri.
Identified as Rashida Begum wife of Noor Mohammad of villge Shadhara in Thanna Mandi area of the district Rajouri, the woman struck bank when at least three militants reportedly barged into her house and tried to abduct her, late last night.
A senior police officer told News Agency of Kashmir that Noor and his wife Rashida were sleeping when three militants forced their entry in their house. Noor Muhammad was beaten mercilessly by the armed militants who asked the woman to accompany them.
&#8220;Rashida took an axe lying in the room and struck one of them&#8221;, the police officer said adding &#8220;When the militant fell down she hit the other two as well&#8221;.
While one of the three militants died on the spot other two fled from the spot in injured condition, police said.
Fearing a revenge police and security forces has reportedly asked the family to remain in Rajouri for few days for security reasons. (NAK)

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## ek_indian

I was replying but EjazR had done it already!!


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## Goodperson

If you see the title its difficult to digest for few here that they were terrorist and one was killed by a woman.

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## kumar_V1.0

Understand the direction of wind. Truth will be out soon . They are not wanted ...

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## EjazR

kumar_V1.0 said:


> Understand the direction of wind. Truth will be out soon . *They are not wanted any more...*



Correction, these so called Jihadi groups were never wanted. JKLF led a secular struggle and even had support of Hindus and sikh kashmiris until these groups came to start their campaign of hate and terror.

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## brahmastra

Jana said:


> * As usual the Orange Indian media at work.*
> 
> Just look at the details of this news story.
> 
> A woman succeeded in killing a 'militant" with an axe .
> 
> The woman and her husband snatched the weapons from "Militants"
> 
> well the highly trained, highly equipped Indian army hardly kills these "highly trained militants" without suffering any casualties or injury.* And look at this news an armless woman killed a militant lolzz
> *
> 
> It clearly shows the men were ordinary criminals NOT freedom fighters.
> 
> 
> *When will Indians learn to behave like real men stop such cheap propaganda.*




pls, don't troll.

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## EjazR

Goodperson said:


> If you see the title its difficult to digest for few here that they were terrorist and one was killed by a woman.



Its the first time a woman has killed one. But human rights abuses by these militants is well documented by UNHCR and other organisations which include rape, assasinations, kidnappings extortion e.t.c.

You can understand now why the locals give tip offs and joining the police and army to fight these very militants

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## Cheetah786

Goodperson said:


> If you see the title its difficult to digest for few here that they were terrorist and one was killed by a woman.



If u belive this i'll lease you Taj Mahal for a very good price

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## kumar_V1.0

Jana said:


> As usual the Orange Indian media at work.
> 
> Just look at the details of this news story.
> 
> A woman succeeded in killing a 'militant" with an axe .
> 
> The woman and her husband snatched the weapons from "Militants"
> 
> well the highly trained, highly equipped Indian army hardly kills these "highly trained militants" without suffering any casualties or injury. And look at this news an armless woman killed a militant lolzz
> 
> 
> It clearly shows the men were ordinary criminals NOT freedom fighters.
> 
> 
> When will Indians learn to behave like real men stop such cheap propaganda.




By the way did you do some kind of search / research before you started your yellow / orange rhetoric again.

Please be open otherwise whats point in having these discussions if we build a iron wall around our brains. Whats is so devastating in the news. If you have someone at you home trying to take you hostage will you not try and do something to save yourself.

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## Goodperson

Cheetah786 said:


> If u belive this i'll lease you Taj Mahal for a very good price



There is too much of gas in your comment, Hope you can post something related to thread title.

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## brahmastra

Goodperson said:


> There is too much of gas in your comment, Hope you can post something related to thread title.



wait for sometime, they will say "they were Indian army in millitant outfit"

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## Spring Onion

brahmastra said:


> wait for sometime, they will say "they were Indian army in millitant outfit"



Why not in the past too Indian army used to rape and killed and put it on freedom fighters. 

India in the past had created a fake militants/freedom fighters' group in Held Kashmir to infiltrate freedom fighters. This group used to kill Hindus and Sikhs and blam it on Kashmiri freedom fighters.


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## Goodperson

Bravo and you yourself kill those so called fake agents ? Perhaps the women also is an agent ?

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## brahmastra

^^I was right

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## kumar_V1.0

There goes the 'conspiracy theory' even before the conventional theory is applied..

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## beckham

Women like her should be appreciated for her act of bravery !

Many Kashmiri women join women village defence committee and are trained to use AK-47s and other heavy-duty weapons, at regular intervals which imbibes a sense of self-confidence and boost of confidence in dealing with an adverse situation like this.





























View attachment 804e406c800f26edb5d2672be014a8cb.jpg

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## Nemesis

India doesn't need to "spice up" news stories to re-enforce it's position on Kashmir. I don't know how it works in Pakistan, but in India, news agencies don't work for the government.

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## qsaark

> Pakistan was conceived as a homeland for Muslims, that does not mean we drag every Muslim in South Asia kicking and screaming into Pakistan - there were those who embraced the idea of Pakistan and immigrated there, and others who did not and stayed where they were due to whatever compulsions they had.


Well, Pakistan was conceived as a homeland for the Muslim ruling elites where they could continue oppressing their subjects but this is another subject. 

Pakistan was to be consisted of the areas of Muslim majority, and that included Hyderabad, Junagarh and Manavader. It was never said in the resolution that Pakistan will be consisted of the X part of the land where the Muslims of India will immigrate if they chose to.



> Pakistan's responsibility is to fight for those that chose her, and those that were denied the right, as much as is possible.


So the Muslims of Hyderabad, Junagrah and Manavader chose her, did Pakistan fight for them?



> And Pakistan did protest the forcible annexations of Junagadh, Munavadh and Hyderaba into India, but the reality of the situation was that Pakistan was in no position to militarily impact those states and therefore defend our interests and those of the people of those states (in case they chose to join Pakistan), nor were all of those states Muslim majority, which meant that a plebiscite (which the rule sof partition indicated had to be employed in disputed accessions) would have gone against Pakistan in any case.


Militarily it was not possible, but what about taking the matter to the United Nations? What we did for the Muslims of these three states on the diplomatic front?



> Yes - we fought over the Rann of Kutch and Siachen did we not? But it is also true that in all three of those cases, Kashmir, Rann of Kutch and Siachen, we were able to militarily contest our rights.


We fought in the mentioned three theaters not for the love of the Muslims living there (in fact in Rann, there are more Hindus than Muslims) but for their strategic importance.



> You ignore the fact that there was already an indigenous rebellion against the Maharajah in various parts of Kashmir, which he brutally attempted to suppress, which was the catalyst for the Tribal invasion.


Nom we intervened in Kashmir because MahaRaja refused to annexed the State with Pakistan. The Pakistan Army and the Lashkaris entered in Kashmir only after the GoP gave them a green signal. If the suppression or oppression of Maharaja was the catalyst, the Lashkaris would have entered the state long before 1948.



> Operation Gibraltar was an ill conceived operation, and it would have only taken a few to *** out the covert operation - it says little about whether the Kashmiris would choose Pakistan or India if offered the opportunity to select in a free, fair and impartially plebiscite.


How it says little about the mindset of the Kashmiris? What stopped the Kashmiris to help the Pakistani troops who were there to liberate them? Why the Kashmiris decided not to accept that help? It is clear from the failure of the Op. Gibraltar that Kashmiris were settled down for whatever the reason and had little or no interest in any attempt by the Pakistan to get them liberated from the so-called oppression of the India.

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## pak-marine

lol what a filmi post ..! women kil 3 highly trained militants with an axe ! , 

its probably a tatu choor or choors trying their luck and got axed by a women. 

lets not "Bollywood: this forum please lets be real


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## kumar_V1.0

pak-marine said:


> lol what a filmi post ..! women kil 3 highly trained militants with an axe ! ,
> 
> its probably a tatu choor or choors trying their luck and got axed by a women.
> 
> lets not "Bollywood: this forum please lets be real



And you can swear by there preparedness and great level of training..

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## pak-marine

kumar_V1.0 said:


> And you can swear by there preparedness and great level of training..



no i dont ..... its common sense 3 guys with AKz and a women with an axe ! think pls !

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## AnGrz_Z_K_Jailer

brahmastra said:


> ^^I was right



Yes you are right mate ....

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## kumar_V1.0

pak-marine said:


> no i dont ..... its common sense 3 guys with AKz and a women with an axe ! think pls !



That's the point.

These people never expected the retaliation by an unarmed women. And this lady thought otherwise. And anyways when militants take hostage a civil family they know they are not at war front.

Think Please .. Is it that *under current* has become *over current* and things have started to look different.. Little far fetched but a real possibility. A different perspective.

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## pak-marine

kumar_V1.0;498366]That's the point.
These people never expected the retaliation by an unarmed women. And this lady thought otherwise. 



> indeed a great point ... makes a perfect bollywood sense for you isnt it ~ ! ?





Think Please .. Is it that *under current* has become *over current* and things have started to look different.. Little far fetched but a real possibility. A different perspective.[/QUOTE]



> ya go ahead live in your little filmi duniya ... even if kashmiris are occupied for the next 1000 years this will never be the perspective .... be 4real please and look around in kashmir crowds in thousands hold pak flag "My salam to those great souls , Stop imposing your will upon those poor souls


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## greatsequence

I think Admins should come into play now. Like all other forums this forum is also being trolled by indians now. Put this story in front of any one in the world and you will just get your answer. We are just wasting our time on a bogus news.


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## tyagi

Gunman axed to death

Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - Gunman axed to death

Shaheen Khan
Jammu, Sept 28: In the first incident of its kind, a gunman was axed to death by a civilian in Rajouri district. 
Noor Ahmed of Sharadha, Rajouri told Rising Kashmir that three unidentified gunmen barged into his house at about 9:30 pm Sunday. The gunmen, who were inquiring about the rape case of my daughter, Rukshana, beat me up with bamboo sticks. When they were hitting me, my brother Wakalat Hussain and son Ajaz Ahmed intervened and attacked one of the gunmen. I attacked another gunman with an axe and he died on spot. Another gunman tried to **** the gun but before he could have pressed the trigger, I also attacked him with an axe. His gun slipped away from his hand and he ran away, said Noor. 
He said, When the gunmen fled away, my son Ajaz Ahmed and daughter Ruksana picked up their guns fired some rounds towards them.
When asked how they could use automatic weapons, Noor said, They were trained by a relative, Shafiq Ahmed, who is an army man.
Noors brother Wakalat said the gunmen were inquiring about the character of Noors daughter. Why you firstly approach police in rape case and then withdraw it, he quoted them as saying. 
He said he received a bullet injury on arm during scuffle with one of the gunmen. We dont know why they attacked us and who they were, he said.
Immediately after the incident a police party rushed to the spot and took the rifles of the gunmen in their possession.
SHO Police Station Thanamandi Mohammad Ashraf told Rising Kashmir that a gunman was killed in the scuffle with locals. Police have recovered two rifles from the spot along with a coded-information. The identity of the gunmen is being ascertained. The deceased gunman might be foreign militant of Laskhare-Toiba, he said. 
DIG S D Singh Jamwal said the deceased gunman is a Pakistan militant. His identity is being ascertained. We have launched the investigations, he added.
Sources said Rukhsana daughter of Noor Ahmad had lodged an FIR in Police Station Thanamandi on July 24, 2009 under section 376 and 109 (Rape Case) against two boys namely Mohammad Arif son of Sunna, Behrote and Tahir Hussain son of Abdul Latief of Thanamandi for raping her. The case was dismissed by court after Rukhsana withdrew her statement and stated she was not raped. 
Meanwhile, the deceased gunman was buried in Upper Shadara village.


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## booo

pak-marine said:


> no i dont ..... its common sense 3 guys with AKz and a women with an axe ! think pls !



read it again... its not 3 guys, she killed one and the she and her husband managed to snach the weapon. remaining two ran away.


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## Cheetah786

Goodperson said:


> There is too much of gas in your comment, Hope you can post something related to thread title.



I think i made my point and your responce tells me it was right ON!


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## Cheetah786

booo said:


> read it again... its not 3 guys, she killed one and the she and her husband managed to snach the weapon. remaining two ran away.



They must be very hard core Militants they were there to snatch a woman i forget to see how a common thief would be considered a militant.last i checked they are fighting the occupying army not for a local woman what we do no is in the passed Indian army has been doing these things.


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## pak-marine

> booo said:
> 
> 
> 
> read it again... its not 3 guys, she killed one and the she and her husband managed to snach the weapon. remaining two ran away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @ Boooo here is it again for please read again i have highlighted and underlined incase you miss it!!
> 
> Rashida Begum and her husband Noor Mohammad were *sleeping* in their house in Shadhara village in Thanna Mandi area of the district, about 190 km north-east of Jammu, when a group of *three* militants *barged into their house *
> 
> As the *militants, armed with automatic assault rifles*, demanded the woman be handed over to them and threatened Noor Mohammad, *Rashida *picked up an* axe *and hit *one militant*, killing him. A violent scuffle ensued, in which *another militant was injured*. The *two *remaining militants fled,
Click to expand...


this is nothing but another made up media stunt cow dung !


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## luoshan

This woman should be given the bravery award on the next Republic day.
But first the Indian government should provide top security to this family. After this incident the family will me marked as targets by the terrorists. Their safety and security should be given top priority. 
Government should encourage more and more people to stand-up to the atrocities committed by the terrorists. When this happens the terrorists will have no ground to stand on in the peaceful state of J&K. This incident should be made an example. If this family gets hurt, then it'll scare other people too.

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## EjazR

_More details emerging overnight..._

This 20-yr-old Kashmiri killed a militant, shot another

*SHAHDRA SHARIEF (RAJOURI):* 
Displaying rare courage, a 20-year-old Kashmiri woman axed to death an armed Lashkar-e-Toiba commander and then, along with her 18-year-old brother, snatched guns and opened fire on two other militants, wounding one and forcing them to flee. The incident took place at Shahdra Sharief in the Rajouri district of Jammu and Kashmir late Sunday night.

Police identified the dead militant as Uzafa Shah, a Pakistani national who had been operating in the Rajouri-Poonch area for the last four years. He was said to be the only Lashkar commander in the area who had survived.

Rajouri SSP Shafqat Watali said police found a blood trail, suggesting that one of the militants who fled was wounded. One even left behind his weapon. The family handed over an AK-56 and an AK-47 to the police. DIG SDS Jamwal said the family retaliated when the militants made an attempt to molest the 20-year-old. 

Three militants came to the Bhatti Mohalla in Upper Shahdra Sharief around 9.30 pm Sunday and went to the house of one Waqalat Hussain. They asked him to accompany them to the adjoining house of his elder brother, Noor Hussain.

When Noor Hussain did not open the door, the militants broke open a window and entered the house. By then, Noor Hussain and his wife Rashida Begum had hidden daughter Rukhsana Kausar beneath a cot. On not finding Rukhsana, the militants started beating Rashida. Son Aijaz Ahmed tried to pick up a lathi but one of the militants hit him.

*It was at this point that Rukhsana emerged from her hiding place with an axe and hit the Lashkar commander on his head. One of the militants opened fire, the bullet striking Waqalat Hussain in the arm. Other family members jumped in, joining Rukhsana who was battling the militants.*

*Rukhsana picked up the Lashkar commanders gun, snatched another from one of the militants and tossed it to her brother. Both then opened fire, wounding one of the militants and forcing them to flee.*

Rukhsana and Aijaz then led the family to the police post at Shahdra Sharief. To ensure that the militants stayed away, Aijaz fired in the air from the two AK rifles at regular intervals till they reached the police post where they handed over the weapons.

Though there have been incidents of civilians resisting militants who forced entry into their houses, it is the first case of a top militant being felled by a young woman. And this happened in an area where militants killed three policemen in an ambush a fortnight ago.

*The killing of the Lashkar commander by Rukhsana was the talk of town today. Mubarak ho, yahi jehad hai (Congratulations, this is jehad), said Maulana Amir Mohammad Shamsi, head preacher of Alhuda Jamia Masjid, Rajouri. Shahdra Sharief shrine administrator Inayat Hussain Baba said Rukhsana had sent an example for others to emulate.*

*A special police post has been set up at Noor Hussains house to protect the family. Appreciating the courage shown by Rukhsana and Aijaz, senior police officers have even offered them jobs as Special Police Officers.*

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## Halaku Khan

^^^ The courage of this woman brings a lump to one's throat. 

Apparently the dead terrorist was a Pakistani. Pakistanis should realize that their nationals fighting in Kashmir are no better than Fazlullah or Ajmal Kasab. There is no honour in this so-called "Jihad" and their deaths are celebrated by the locals.

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## EjazR

^^^I would prefer to say a misguided Pakistani if that is true.

Most people don't know the reality of what is happening and a few elite use this ignorance and the name of Islam and Jihad for their ends. If the public knows about this, there will be no support for them and infact, there will be support to stop them and shut them down from the Pakistanis themselves.

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## UnitedPak

Halaku Khan said:


> ^^^ The courage of this woman brings a lump to one's throat.
> 
> Apparently the dead terrorist was a Pakistani. Pakistanis should realize that their nationals fighting in Kashmir are no better than Fazlullah or Ajmal Kasab. There is no honour in this so-called Jihad and their deaths are celebrated by the locals.




Those Pakistani passports sure are getting indestructible lately.


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## Incredible India

EjazR said:


> ^^^I would prefer to say a misguided Pakistani if that is true.
> 
> Most people don't know the reality of what is happening and a few elite use this ignorance and the name of Islam and Jihad for their ends. If the public knows about this, there will be no support for them and infact, there will be support to stop them and shut them down from the Pakistanis themselves.



The so called 'Kashmiri freedom fighters' and their 'supporters' can fool the world for some time but they cant fool the world every time. Let this incident be the begining of their end.

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## Developereo

Looking at this "news report" objectively, there is no proof provided that these intruders were, in fact, separatist freedom fighters. Separatists _have_ been involved in human rights abuses, but these are mostly related to torturing/killing informants and collaborators. Sex-related crimes are not their speciality.

The Indian army, on the other hand, _has_ been implicated in a number of rapes and most human rights organizations acknowledge that these crimes are far more prevalent than reported.

http://hrkashmir.blogspot.com/2007/09/rape-of-kashmiri-women-and-south-asia.html
Since January 1989 to April 30, 2007:
Total killing. 91,865 
Custodial Killing 6,899
*Women gang raped & Molested 9,708*
Civilian arrested 113,798
Structures arsoned / Destroyed 105,353
Children orphaned 106,930
Women widowed 22,530 

Based on historical patterns of abuses, these intruders are far more likely to be common criminals, or Indian army soldiers, than separatist freedom fighters. Keep in mind that assault rifles are a dime-a-dozen in any conflict zone; any common criminal can get their hands on them.

P.S. I am sure in due time the police will obtain "confessions"  from the "militants".


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## MZUBAIR

3 militants, woman killed in gunfighting in India-controlled Kashmir 



English_Xinhua 2009-09-28 19:18:13 Print 

SRINAGAR, India-controlled Kashmir, Sept. 28 (Xinhua) -- Three militants and a civilian woman were killed and two paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) troopers were injured in a gunfighting Monday in India-controlled Kashmir, police and paramilitary said. 

The gunfighting broke out in Amlar-Tral village of Pulwama district, 37 km south of Srinagar, the summer capital of India-controlled Kashmir. 

"The encounter broke during the morning hours today after a search party comprising of paramilitary troopers and police launched a search operation to trace militants present in the area. The militants fired upon the party who was advancing towards their position and thus initiated a gun battle. The standoff lasted for several hours and culminated with the killing of three militants possibly belonging to Lashker-e-Toiba (LeT). In the gunfight two of our troopers were also injured," said CRPF spokesman, Prabhakar Triphati in Srinagar. 

Meanwhile, the Superintendent of Police, Awantipora, Bashir Ahmad Khan said that during the exchange of fire a civilian woman were also killed. 

"Besides three militants one civilian woman has also got killed in the exchange of fire. We are trying to ascertain under what circumstances was the woman killed," said Khan. 

Police has also claimed recovery of three assault rifles and some ammunition from the slain militants. 

The gun fighting between militants and Indian army troopers in India-controlled Kashmir takes place intermittently. 

Police and defense officials maintain that most of the times the operations triggering gun fights are carried out on prior information about presence of militants in specific areas. 
_________________________________________________________


*Salut to those Kashmiri people who fight against Indian militant forces*


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## Ingis

UnitedPak said:


> Those people were not "freedom fighters". They were kidnappers and terrorists (clearly evident by the fact that they tried to kidnap and kill civilians). Get your labelling right next time.



Not all so-called "freedom fighters" are terrorists but most of the terrorists in J&K are "freedom fighters".


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## ek_indian

MZUBAIR said:


> 3 militants, woman killed in gunfighting in India-controlled Kashmir
> 
> 
> 
> English_Xinhua 2009-09-28 19:18:13 Print
> 
> SRINAGAR, India-controlled Kashmir, Sept. 28 (Xinhua) -- Three militants and a civilian woman were killed and two paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) troopers were injured in a gunfighting Monday in India-controlled Kashmir, police and paramilitary said.
> 
> The gunfighting broke out in Amlar-Tral village of Pulwama district, 37 km south of Srinagar, the summer capital of India-controlled Kashmir.
> 
> "The encounter broke during the morning hours today after a search party comprising of paramilitary troopers and police launched a search operation to trace militants present in the area. The militants fired upon the party who was advancing towards their position and thus initiated a gun battle. The standoff lasted for several hours and culminated with the killing of three militants possibly belonging to Lashker-e-Toiba (LeT). In the gunfight two of our troopers were also injured," said CRPF spokesman, Prabhakar Triphati in Srinagar.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Superintendent of Police, Awantipora, Bashir Ahmad Khan said that during the exchange of fire a civilian woman were also killed.
> 
> "Besides three militants one civilian woman has also got killed in the exchange of fire. We are trying to ascertain under what circumstances was the woman killed," said Khan.
> 
> Police has also claimed recovery of three assault rifles and some ammunition from the slain militants.
> 
> The gun fighting between militants and Indian army troopers in India-controlled Kashmir takes place intermittently.
> 
> Police and defense officials maintain that most of the times the operations triggering gun fights are carried out on prior information about presence of militants in specific areas.
> _________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> *Salut to those Kashmiri people who fight against Indian militant forces*



This is another news. Different from what is discussed here. If you can not post something constructive apart from trolling, please refrain. Thanks.


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## blueoval79

An intense churning is underway in militancy scenario in Kashmir, though the real reasons behind it are still not clear.Several developments are playing out at once: Some key Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) operatives from J&K are returning to Pakistan; dozens of militants in P.0.K are being rounded up in camps; and there's been a huge jump in extortions by militants in J&K.

Observers say they are still not sure what is happening in Pakistan. But they are convinced that most developments are part of a strategic shift calibrated by the government there.
Though the strategy is not clear, one definite signal is emerging from J&K: Over the past four months there's been a huge jump in extortions by militants, almost four to five cases being recorded daily.

Sources tell DNA that the rising extortion cases are coinciding with a drop in "finance from Pakistan" for militancy. Widespread extortion is a crucial turning point for insurgency, rendering it unpopular among locals.

Over the past few weeks, Indian agencies have intercepted conversations between some LeT commanders, showing that some of them want to ex-filtrate from J&K into Pakistan. "We are seeing ex-filtration after a very long time," says a senior official in the security establishment.

A section of the security establishment believe, based on inputs, that Pakistan government is deploying LeT terrorists to fight the Taliban in NWFP (North West Frontier Province). The inputs show that some of the Pakistan-based LeT commanders have been moved from Punjab to NWFP to fight the Taliban.

This section also believes that the reports of ex-filtration of LeT commanders from India could also be linked to this move. That LeT assistance to Pakistan security forces is the reason why Islamabad is reluctant to act against LeT founder Hafiz Sayeed for the Mumbai attacks.

However, many observers are not ready to believe that LeT will fight Taliban, and speculate that the moves could be part of an elaborate hoax to build up a positive image of LeT to mislead the global community.

In *** authorities are rounding up several dozen militants, especially those from J&K and who have been living in Pakistan for years -- most of them are members of Hizbul Mujahideen.

Kashmiris being rounded up in camps has surprised observers here. "On the face of it," says a J&K hand, it looks as if Pakistanis are trying to "control" militants, a fact that could be used to mislead the international community.

But infiltration into India is showing a different trend: For the first time in five years, August and September have recorded huge spike in infiltration. "It could be a case of nobody being in clear control along the border, while a larger strategy is being unveiled," says a Kashmir hand.

Lashkar-e-Taiba men returning to Pakistan - dnaindia.com


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## brahmastra



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## afriend

A very nice development..!!! If more and more people come forward with such courage these stuipds will be running for their lives.


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## Omar1984

*Kashmir Rape Victims' Bodies Exhumed *


Indian forensic experts exhumed the bodies of two slain Kashmiri women Monday in an investigation aimed at defusing the latest tensions plaguing this bloody Himalayan region.

*Many in Muslim-majority Kashmir accuse Indian security forces of raping and murdering the women and say justice will only be served when the troops leave.*

*"India has militarized every facet of Kashmir. These kinds of incidents are bound to happen as long as this occupation continues," said school teacher Fayaz Ahmed.*

Underscoring the ongoing violence in the region -- claimed by both India and Pakistan and a perennial flashpoint between the rival nations -- three suspected militants and a civilian woman were killed Monday in a shootout with security forces in the village of Tral in southern Kashmir, said Col. K. Umamaheswar, an army spokesman. Two paramilitary soldiers were wounded, he said.

The attacks on 22-year-old Neelofar Jan and her 17-year-old sister-in-law Asiya Jan dramatically rekindled anti-India sentiments in the territory, where militant groups have been fighting for independence since 1989 but where violence has been waning over the past few years.

*The two disappeared in May as they walked home from their family's apple orchard. Local authorities first said the women had drowned when they found their bodies a kilometer (half a mile) apart in a shallow stream on May 30. But police later declared the two had been raped and murdered.

Authorities, however, failed to make any arrests and called in national investigators after weeks of violent protests by residents.*

The national investigators, and the security forces, have declined to comment.

*The deaths led to 50 days of violent protests that shut down Shopian as protesters chanted "We want freedom," hurled rocks at security forces and ransacked government offices. Troops responded with gunfire and tear gas. At least two people were killed and 400 injured in the clashes that spread across the Kashmir valley.*

On Monday, police and paramilitary forces with rifles and flak jackets closed the main roads leading to Shopian. The paths to the Muslim cemetery where the two women were buried were sealed with razor wire, and a tent shielded the grave sites from view.

A team of Indian doctors and forensic experts in the tent exhumed the bodies and conducted autopsies on the bodies throughout the day Monday, a local official who witnessed the process told The Associated Press. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media while the investigation was ongoing.

The mood in Shopian was somber Monday, despite deep skepticism that the investigation will lead to arrests. Businesses were closed, and the streets were empty of vehicles as residents shut down the town, 35 miles (60 kilometers) south of Srinagar, the main city of Indian-controlled Kashmir.

"We have decided to fully cooperate so that they don't have any excuse to say that locals disrupted the exhumation process," said Javaid Ahmed, a local activist.

Indian soldiers remain a constant presence in Kashmir, even as deaths connected to the insurgency dropped from 4,507 in 2001 to 541 last year.

The shift was the result of India's peace process with Pakistan, as well as pressure on Islamabad to curtail militant camps on its soil after Sept. 11. Kashmir is divided between India and Pakistan, and the South Asian powers have fought two of their three wars over it since independence in 1947.

*The Shopian protests reflect the deep-seated skepticism in Indian-controlled Kashmir that India's security forces would be held to account. Human rights groups have long accused the troops here of brutality and using rape to intimidate residents.*

*"The government and its institutions have no credibility in Kashmir. People say, from experience, that these probes are conducted to camouflage reality," said Sheikh Shokat, a law professor at the University of Kashmir in Srinagar. He said only an international investigation would satisfy the public.*

*Four police officers arrested on charges of suppressing and destroying evidence in the case were freed earlier this month, further stoking skepticism.*

Throughout Shopian, black flags in memory of the women hang from shops and buildings. Dozens of women -- some wailing with grief -- gathered at the homes of the victims' families near the graveyard Monday.

*"This fear will remain with us forever," Neelofar Jan's mother, Ayesha, said as she sobbed. "We are exhausted now. What can we do with this pain?"

When the investigators left the cemetery in the evening, hundreds of residents ran inside, shouting, "We want justice," and "We are ashamed, sisters, that your killers are still alive."

"All one can do is wait to see what the investigators can do," said resident Abdul Ahad, an apple farmer from Shopian. "But frankly speaking, no one expects the state to indict itself."*

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## Omar1984

*No sell-out on Kashmir: Zardari *




NEW YORK - &#8220;Pakistan will never sell out on Kashmir for improving relations with India&#8221;, stated President Zardari during his meeting with Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Chairman Hurriyat Conference, in New York, Sunday. He added that Pakistan would continue to aid the Kashmiris&#8217; politically and diplomatically. On the issue of resolving the Kashmir dispute, President Zardari reiterated that the wishes of the Kashmiri people would be paramount. 

Mirwaiz informed the President that the people of Kashmir continued to have high expectations from their Pakistani brethren. 

The Government of Pakistan should raise the Kashmir issue on every forum. The two exchanged in depth views on Kashmir. President Zardari emphasised that in the dialogue with India, Kashmir would remain the number one priority and its peaceful resolution was necessary for peace in the region. 

Apart from Kashmir, other issues of common interest were also discussed. The meeting lasted over thirty minutes and amongst those participating were the Foreign Minister of Pakistan, Shah Mahmood Qureshi, Ambassador Haqqani, Pakistan&#8217;s High Commissioner to India, Shahid Malik and Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir.

On the occasion, Mirwaiz informed President Zardari about the latest situation in Indian Occupied Kashmir. After the meeting, in a television interview, Mirwaiz stated that the entire Hurriyat Conference wants Pakistan to include the Kashmiri leadership in the talks with India on Kashmir, in the future, so that the issue can be resolved in a just and peaceful fashion.


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## FlyingEagle

She should be awarded...........Thums Up to the brave lady.

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## hembo

Getting back to the topic:

RIP to the brave major and condolences with his family who has lost a young soul while fulfilling his duty to his motherland.

Those members who are calling the dead terrorist of LET as martyrs and freedom fighters are going against their own government as LET is in banned terrorist list of GOP. If someone still openly supports activists of this type of banned organization, GOP should prosecute the supporters for being sympathizers of terrorist organization and treason to Pakistan. Period.


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## hembo

@ MZUBAIR

I am a little disapointed with your salutation of the terrorists. I thought you were among the sane ones here.

@ All posters

Those members who are calling the terrorist of LET as martyrs and freedom fighters are going against their own government as LET is in banned terrorist list of GOP. If someone still openly supports activists of this type of banned organization, GOP should prosecute the supporters for being sympathizers of terrorist organization and treason to Pakistan. Period

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## duhastmish

what a brave women - she set her self as an great example - now india should give her all due respect and set an example out of her - 

to show that india do care for people kashmir. these terrorist are loosing their ground in recent time - i heard lot of terrorist dying.

--------------------------------

it makes me feel good when propaganda makers like - jana and muzabir - people with two face ,find themselves lost for words. 

these are terrorist organisation in paksitan too.

one side you are fightign terrorism - in taleban who are fight in name of jihad - second you talk opposite on east border ?????



haha - you guys have to realize - you can not make your voice heard with gun - killing people is not the way out- peaceful way is the only way possible - we must get together to eliminate terrorism . 

--------

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## Y2A

@ Indians

Guys you can do many things like bringing few mis-reported isolated events, laugh you teeth out on US strings towards Pakistan, feel proud on the increasing fadness of MILITARY side of Kashmiri freedom movement, continue your occupation for litile while more, but its really ironic what arundhutti roye has said:
*kashmir will never be India as India could never be british, dig that.*

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## Comet

Brave Woman... I hope all the women are like her. Brave and Confident.

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## ashwin

Y2A said:


> @ Indian
> 
> Guys you can do many things like bringing few mis-reported isolated events, laugh you teeth out on US strings towards Pakistan, feel proud on the increasing fadness of MILITARY side of Kashmiri freedom movement, continue your occupation for litile while more its really ironic what arundhutti roye has said:
> *kashmir will never be India as India could never be british, dig that.*



why are you whinning when Kashmiris aka Indians are kicking the a$$ of these freedom fighters?

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## dabong1

A new cold war in Kashmir
Speaking of consensus, there's the small and ever-present matter of Kashmir. When it comes to Kashmir the consensus in India is hard core. It cuts across every section of the establishment - including the media, the bureaucracy, the intelligentsia, and even Bollywood.

The war in the Kashmir Valley is almost 20-years old now, and has claimed about 70,000 lives. Tens of thousands have been tortured, several thousand have "disappeared", women have been raped, tens of thousands widowed. Half a million Indian troops patrol the Kashmir Valley, making it the most militarized zone in the world. (The United States had about 165,000 active-duty troops in Iraq at the height of its occupation.) The Indian army now claims that it has, for the most part, crushed militancy in Kashmir. Perhaps that's true. But does military domination mean victory?

How does a government that claims to be a democracy justify a military occupation? By holding regular elections, of course. Elections in Kashmir have had a long and fascinating past. The blatantly rigged state election of 1987 was the immediate provocation for the armed uprising that began in 1990. Since then elections have become a finely honed instrument of the military occupation, a sinister playground for India's deep state. Intelligence agencies have created political parties and decoy politicians, they have constructed and destroyed political careers at will. It is they more than anyone else who decide what the outcome of each election will be. After every election, the Indian establishment declares that India has won a popular mandate from the people of Kashmir.

In the summer of 2008, a dispute over land being allotted to the Amarnath Shrine Board coalesced into a massive, non-violent uprising. Day after day, hundreds of thousands of people defied soldiers and policemen - who fired straight into the crowds, killing scores of people - and thronged the streets. From early morning to late in the night, the city reverberated to chants of "Azadi! Azadi!" (Freedom! Freedom!). Fruit sellers weighed fruit chanting "Azadi! Azadi!" Shopkeepers, doctors, houseboat owners, guides, weavers, carpet sellers - everybody was out with placards, everybody shouted "Azadi! Azadi!" The protests went on for several days.
The protests were massive. They were democratic, and they were non-violent. For the first time in decades, fissures appeared in mainstream public opinion in India. The Indian state panicked. Unsure of how to deal with this mass civil disobedience, it ordered a crackdown. It enforced the harshest curfew in recent memory with shoot-on-sight orders. In effect, for days on end, it virtually caged millions of people. The major pro-freedom leaders were placed under house arrest, several others were jailed. House-to-house searches culminated in the arrests of hundreds of people.

Once the rebellion was brought under control, the government did something extraordinary - it announced elections in the state. Pro-independence leaders called for a boycott. They were re-arrested. Almost everybody believed the elections would become
a huge embarrassment for the Indian government. The security establishment convulsed with paranoia. Its elaborate network of spies, renegades, and embedded journalists began to buzz with renewed energy. No chances were taken. (Even I, who had nothing to do with any of what was going on, was put under house arrest in Srinagar for two days.)

Calling for elections was a huge risk. But the gamble paid off. People turned out to vote in droves. It was the biggest voter turnout since the armed struggle began. It helped that the polls were scheduled so that the first districts to vote were the most militarized districts even within the Kashmir Valley.

None of India's analysts, journalists, and psephologists cared to ask why people who had only weeks ago risked everything, including bullets and shoot-on-sight orders, should have suddenly changed their minds. None of the high-profile scholars of the great festival of democracy - who practically live in television studios when there are elections in mainland India, picking apart every forecast and exit poll and every minor percentile swing in the vote count - talked about what elections mean in the presence of such a massive, year-round troop deployment (one armed soldier for every 20 civilians).

*No one speculated about the mystery of hundreds of unknown candidates who materialized out of nowhere to represent political parties that had no previous presence in the Kashmir Valley. Where had they come from? Who was financing them? No one was curious. No one spoke about the curfew, the mass arrests, the lockdown of constituencies that were going to the polls.*

Not many talked about the fact that campaigning politicians went out of their way to de-link Azadi and the Kashmir dispute from elections, which they insisted were only about municipal issues - roads, water, electricity. No one talked about why people who have lived under a military occupation for decades - where soldiers could barge into homes and whisk away people at any time of the day or night - might need someone to listen to them, to take up their cases, to represent them.

The minute elections were over, the establishment and the mainstream press declared victory (for India) once again. The most worrying fallout was that in Kashmir, people began to parrot their colonizers' view of themselves as a somewhat pathetic people who deserved what they got. "Never trust a Kashmiri," several Kashmiris said to me. "We're fickle and unreliable." Psychological warfare, technically known as psy-ops, has been an instrument of official policy in Kashmir. Its depredations over decades - its attempt to destroy people's self-esteem - are arguably the worst aspect of the occupation. It's enough to make you wonder whether there is any connection at all between elections and democracy.

The trouble is that Kashmir sits on the fault lines of a region that is awash in weapons and sliding into chaos. The Kashmiri freedom struggle, with its crystal clear sentiment but fuzzy outlines, is caught in the vortex of several dangerous and conflicting ideologies - Indian nationalism (corporate as well as "Hindu," shading into imperialism), Pakistani nationalism (breaking down under the burden of its own contradictions), US imperialism (made impatient by a tanking economy), and a resurgent medieval-Islamist Taliban (fast gaining legitimacy, despite its insane brutality, because it is seen to be resisting an occupation).

Each of these ideologies is capable of a ruthlessness that can range from genocide to nuclear war. Add Chinese imperial ambitions, an aggressive, reincarnated Russia, and the huge reserves of natural gas in the Caspian region and persistent whispers about natural gas, oil, and uranium reserves in Kashmir and Ladakh, and you have the recipe for a new cold war (which, like the last one, is cold for some and hot for others).

In the midst of all this, Kashmir is set to become the conduit through which the mayhem unfolding in Afghanistan and Pakistan spills into India, where it will find purchase in the anger of the young among India's 150 million Muslims who have been brutalized, humiliated and marginalized. Notice has been given by the series of terrorist strikes that culminated in the Mumbai attacks of 2008.

There is no doubt that the Kashmir dispute ranks right up there, along with Palestine, as one of the oldest, most intractable disputes in the world. That does not mean that it cannot be resolved. Only that the solution will not be completely to the satisfaction of any one party, one country, or one ideology. Negotiators will have to be prepared to deviate from the "party line."

Of course, we haven't yet reached the stage where the government of India is even prepared to admit that there's a problem, let alone negotiate a solution. Right now it has no reason to. Internationally, its stocks are soaring. And while its neighbors deal with bloodshed, civil war, concentration camps, refugees, and army mutinies, India has just concluded a beautiful election. However, "demon-crazy" can't fool all the people all the time. India's temporary, shotgun solutions to the unrest in Kashmir (pardon the pun), have magnified the problem and driven it deep into a place where it is poisoning the aquifers.

Is democracy melting?
Perhaps the story of the Siachen Glacier, the highest battlefield in the world, is the most appropriate metaphor for the insanity of our times. Thousands of Indian and Pakistani soldiers have been deployed there, enduring chill winds and temperatures that dip to minus 40 degrees Celsius. Of the hundreds who have died there, many have died just from the elements.

The glacier has become a garbage dump now, littered with the detritus of war - thousands of empty artillery shells, empty fuel drums, ice axes, old boots, tents, and every other kind of waste that thousands of warring human beings generate. The garbage remains intact, perfectly preserved at those icy temperatures, a pristine monument to human folly.

While the Indian and Pakistani governments spend billions of dollars on weapons and the logistics of high-altitude warfare, the battlefield has begun to melt. Right now, it has shrunk to about half its size. The melting has less to do with the military standoff than with people far away, on the other side of the world, living the good life. They're good people who believe in peace, free speech, and in human rights. They live in thriving democracies whose governments sit on the United Nations Security Council and whose economies depend heavily on the export of war and the sale of weapons to countries like India and Pakistan. (And Rwanda, Sudan, Somalia, the Republic of Congo, Iraq, Afghanistan ... it's a long list.)

The glacial melt will cause severe floods on the subcontinent, and eventually severe drought that will affect the lives of millions of people. That will give us even more reasons to fight. We'll need more weapons. Who knows? That sort of consumer confidence may be just what the world needs to get over the current recession. Then everyone in the thriving democracies will have an even better life - and the glaciers will melt even faster.

Asia Times Online :: South Asia news, business and economy from India and Pakistan

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## Khajur

*Kashmir girl overpowers militants *
By Binoo Joshi 
BBC News, Jammu 



*A teenage girl says she killed a militant with his own gun after insurgents attacked their home in Indian-administered Kashmir.*

Three militants stormed into Rukhsana Kauser's home in a remote village in Jammu region on Monday and started beating her parents in front of her. 

Ms Kauser, 18, and her brother turned on the gunmen, killing one and injuring two more. Police praised their courage. 

One of the militants wanted to marry Ms Kauser against her will, police said. 

The militants escaped and are now being sought by police who are using their blood trails as clues. 

'Fired endlessly'

The insurgents went to the house looking for Ms Kauser but her father, Noor Hussain, resisted their demands, Rajouri district senior police superintendent Shafqat Watali told the BBC

Three gunmen then entered the house and attacked Ms Kauser's parents, while four other militants remained outside. 

"My parents told me to hide under the bed and then opened the door," Ms Kauser told the BBC. 

"Without saying anything they [the militants] started beating my parents and my uncle. They beat them so badly that my parents fell on the ground. I could not see that and pounced on one of the militants while my brother hit him with an axe," she said. 

"I thought I should try the bold act of encountering militants before dying." 

Ms Kauser said she grabbed one of the militants by the hair and banged his head against the wall. When he fell down she hit him with an axe, before snatching his rifle. 

"I fired endlessly. The militant commander got 12 shots on his body." 

Her brother, Eijaz, 19, grabbed one of the other militants' guns and also began shooting. 

Ms Kauser said the exchanges of gunfire with the militants had gone on for four hours. 

"I had never touched a rifle before this, let alone fired one. But I had seen heroes firing in films on TV and I tried the same way. Somehow I gathered courage - I fired and fought till dead tired." 

'Bravery'

Police identified the militant commander as Abu Osama, who they say was a member of the banned Lashkar-e-Taiba group and had been active in the Rajouri area for the past five years. 

Local residents told police that he wanted to marry Ms Kauser - and was prepared to do so forcibly. 

Rajouri police superintendent Shajqat Watali praised what he said was the "exemplary bravery" of Ms Kauser and her brother. 

"The reaction by these teenagers was extraordinary." 

There are now fears the family could face retaliatory attacks, so they have been given police protection. 

But Ms Kauser wants more: "We cannot live here in this village. They should relocate us to a safer place in Rajouri town or elsewhere. The militants are not going to leave us after this embarrassment in which a top commander was killed.

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Kashmir girl overpowers militants

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## EjazR

_Another twist, apparently the younger sister wasn't raped. I hope the perpetrators will be bought to justice asap whoever they may be._

One Shopian victim was virgin, reveals autopsy

In a new twist to the Shopian alleged rape and murder case, forensic scientists have found that one of the two victims was a virgin.

Forensic scientists from AIIMS, who accompanied the CBI team, have found during autopsy of the exhumed bodies that the hymen of 17-year-old Aasiya Jan was intact, thereby ruling out the possibility of rape, official sources said on Tuesday.
*
The forensic experts have shown the intact hymen to doctors of Mushawarat Majlis-e-Committee, an amalgam which spearheaded the 47-day agitation against the alleged rape and murder of the two women by security personnel, who were present at the site, they said.*

A special CBI forensic team on Monday collected samples from the bodies of the two women after exhuming them nearly four months after the incident.

The team, comprising senior AIIMS doctors, collected a number of samples from the bodies in a process that started at 7 AM and continued for nine hours. They conducted the autopsy after obtaining necessary approval of the family of the victims  22-year-old Neelofar and her sister-in-law Aasiya.

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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

rape cases are common worldwide.....i remember in austria this case when father Josef Fritzl holding his daughter....Elisabeth Fritzl....and raped her for 24 years...........kasmir girls case i read is so common....it happens.....even....... bill clinton....couldn't resist monica lewensky.....that too in presidential office.......these are social evils....society has to be taught ....against such crimes...


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## hembo

*Brave Rukhsana becomes a star for killing LeT terrorist*
Tue, Sep 29 07:14 PM

Shahdhara Sharief (Rajouri), Sep 29 (IANS) Her immensely brave act has turned young Rukhsana Kausar into a heroine and people now see her as a fighter against the 'zulm' or atrocities of militants. She had taken on a group of Lashkar-e-Taiba terrorists who barged into her house late Sunday night, snatched an AK-47 from one intruder and shot him dead.

Rukhsana is full of smiles at her house in Upper Kalsi in Shahdhara Sharief of Rajouri district, as she is besieged by television reporters asking her how she did it.

Posing with the AK-47 that she grabbed from the militants, she recounts for the umpteenth time how she shot dead LeT terrorist Abu Osama in her house up in the hills, while the locals cheer her.

The girl, in her late teens, fought militants and saved her family, especially her parents.

When the terrorists barged into her house late Sunday night, Rukhsana might have been provoked by the terror unleashed by the ultras on her parents - Noor Hussain and Rashida, and by a premonition that her own dignity was in danger. But what she did was an act of supreme bravery.

'One thing is for sure that the girl exhibited rare bravery, and she deserves all praise for it,' Superintendent of Police, Rajouri, Shafkat Watali told IANS. 'This is a clear manifestation that the people are willing to fight back militants. They are sick of the atrocities of militants.'

Rukhsana is aware that the new spotlight has come on her after she shot the militant with his own gun.

'I knew that they were up to something, and saw them trying to do something terribly wrong with my daddy,' Rukhsana said, brimming with anger. 'I snatched the gun by pulling his hair and then opened fire on him.'

This act of the girl is being termed as a fight against 'zulm' by the locals - who feel this would begin a new chapter in the anti-militancy feelings of the people.

'Now, we feel that militants are not invincible. They can be overpowered and killed,' said Showkat Hussain, a villager who had come to see Rukhsana from Darhal, about 30 km from here.

The villagers, some of whom have dish antenna fixed on their houses, have seen Rukhsana on their TV sets. Many others came to see the new brave girl of the area.

'She is another Sher bibi,' say people, referring to a legendary Gujjar woman who used to venture into the jungles in Banihal area, where lions used to roam many decades ago.

After Rukhsana shot dead one terrorist, the other ultras ran away, including one who was injured.

The family members handed over to the police two AK-47 rifles which they had snatched from the terrorists.

Jammu and Kashmir Governor N.N. Vohra has lauded the exemplary courage and bravery of the fearless young girl.

'The governor has asked for a formal report from the Director General of Police so that he can recommend the young girl for a gallantry award,' an official release said.

'The governor also intends to invite this brave girl to the Raj Bhavan to honour her,' the statement said.

Indo Asian News Service

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## Hulk

Anything that happens in Kashmir is by default blamed on armed forces, and this is not followed by any evidence. There are people with anti India prejudice that will fan such news. I do not think GOI has given orders to rape people and there can be some stray incidences. Looking at how events unfolded in J&K it seems that some people were paid to create stir and raise anti India slogan. It seems they are waiting for next installment to reach them. If the news the one of the victim was virgin is true, then it might mean someone actually killed them and blamed it on armed forces.


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## hembo

*China violated territorial integrity by keeping parts of J-K under it*September 29th, 2009 SindhToday

New Delhi, Sep 29 (ANI): Hizbul Mujahideen chief Syed Salahuddin, who heads the United Jehad Council (UJC), an alliance of Kashmiri militant groups, has said that gifting 43,180 sq km land belonging to Jammu and Kashmir to China in 1963 by Pakistan is a violation of territorial integrity.

Yes, it is the violation of territorial integrity of Jammu and Kashmir. We are against it, said Salahuddin in an exclusive interview to Power Politics.

The Hizbul Mujahideen chief, who has been living in Pakistan since 1995, also said categorically that Gilgit- Baltistan is an integral part of Jammu and Kashmir State.

India had protested against Islamabads recent Gilgit-Baltistan Empowerment and Self Governance Order 2009. New Delhi claims the entire Jammu and Kashmir region is an integral part of India by virtue of accession in 1947. 

I think the current Pakistan package designed for the people of Gilgit- Baltistan (G B) has not brought good reflection. If Pakistan had given them a setup like Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (***), it would have been welcomed. But the Governor (under new package) of G B will be appointed by Pakistan and it amounts to provincial status, which tells upon the territorial integrity of Jammu and Kashmir State, Salahuddin said. 

It is not acceptable to any citizen of Jammu and Kashmir. The Jammu and Kashmir leadership here and across the border has reacted sharply. Pakistan must clarify that it is merely a package of delegation of administrative powers for the said region and it has no impact in any case on the status of Jammu and Kashmir and its territorial integrity. So it has created confusion and ambiguity among the people, he added.

Commenting on Pakistans game plan behind this package, Salahuddin said this package has brought much confusion and contradictions and has created a lot of misapprehension about the sincerity and seriousness of the Government of Pakistan. 

We have repeatedly said that the Government of Pakistan must be crystal clear about this package and it should be confided only to the delegation of administrative powers to the people of the said area. There should be no attempt to encroach on the territorial integrity of Jammu and Kashmir. Gilgit Baltistan is an integral part of Jammu and Kashmir, he said. (ANI)

[NF] *Other Link*


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## blueoval79

CBI has done excelent job by involving local bodies....including Agitating parties...locally appointed doctors...and even people from religious organizations.....this would not only enforce the trust ...but also become a slap on the face of pro terrorisim organizations...who want to fan any thing into a full scale media circus for their advantage......


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## Hulk

Gives you an Idea as to how Pakistan might use Kashmir if they get it. They have already gifted land that did not belong to them.


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## Hulk

I hope CBI finds the truth, I am pretty sure there will be few people who will need to do some answering after this.


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## desiman

Asim Aquil said:


> Do I need to remind you all that Pakistan's flags were hoisted, India's flags were burned, and Self-determination day was held to mark the occasion of Pakistan Independence day.
> 
> That was less than a month ago. This article says nothing about Kashmiris relishing the decline in the independence movement, it only mentions Kashmiris enjoying the fact that the Indian authorities have allowed them to play football.



and do i need to remind you that India is a democratic country where you are allowed to do anything and protest against anything not like pakistan where your own judges are placed under house arrest and the military does w.e. it wants. I can give you 10 articles from news agencies like bbc and cnn which talk about the state of pakistani occupied kashmir where people have no jobs and have no hope. Where on the indian side many kashmiris works in delhi and bombay and enjoy india's growth as much as any other india. Yes there are problems but we know how to deal with them and change is happening. The time is nto far away from Kashmiris will realize truly that staying with India is in their best interest and terrorism will stop. Pakistan cans even handle itself let alone take care of Kashmir so forget about kashmir and handle swat valley first, I know this may offend some people but i just hate people who just cant talk positive, if there is peace in kashmir let it be dude, and stop crying over the same thing again and again lol

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## advaita

eggs and chickens........

But still



desidog said:


> I can give you 10 articles from news agencies like bbc and cnn which talk about the state of *** where people have no jobs and have no hope.



They have Pakistan. Bro you are underestimating the pull of Ummah. That is what created Pakistan. That is what encourages Pakistan to keep up the ......



desidog said:


> The time is nto far away from Kashmiris will realize truly that staying with India is in their best interest and terrorism will stop. *Pakistan cans even handle itself* let alone take care of Kashmir so forget about kashmir and handle swat valley first, I know this may offend some people but i just hate people who just cant talk positive, if there is peace in kashmir let it be dude, and stop crying over the same thing again and again lol



For exactly this reason, there is likelyhood of a significant uptick before a final downtick.

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## Peshwa

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The thing is, the Kashmiris on the other side already have a great degree of autonomy and development. There is a huge Kashmir diaspora, both in Pakistan and abroad, and they are extremely wealthy, which means that you have a ton of money going back home and being invested, aside from the development carried out by the government and the military (in terms of infrastructure, schools, clinics etc.).



Can you please share some articles on the development being carried out in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir??

I recently read about the unhapiness in Kashmiri's on the recent Gilgit-Baltistan proposal for governance......So why are the people in *** unhappy even with all the developments and foreign investment??


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## sadiqams

India is a democratic country where its own army occupies a people who want out of the Indian Union. India is a democratic counctry where it wages war against its neighbouring countries VIA wars to dismember them or absorb them into its country. India is a democratic country where a large proportion of its citizens are denied their rights to demoracy, liberty and life (the dalits) and finally India is a democratic country where it own prime minister has admitted that the naxilities are the greatest threat to its union. The naxalities are happen to be fighting for their rights in a democracy via armed insurrection rights to land life liberty and resources.


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## dabong1

Peshwa said:


> Can you please share some articles on the development being carried out in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir??



What is "Pakistan Occupied Kashmir"?

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## sadiqams

In Pak Kashmir they are just unhappy a passing phase but in your kashmir they get shot, killed and raped for being unhappy about your treatment meted out to them At least in Gilgit Balistan they will now be able to have their own province and and run their local affairs to theit wishes one the elections take place..


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## Peshwa

dabong1 said:


> What is "Pakistan Occupied Kashmir"?



Do I really need to get into this???

India lays claim to all of J&K....including Azad Kashmir and parts donated to China by Pakistan.

Pakistani's are entitled to their views....we to ours.....

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## desiman

sadiqams said:


> India is a democratic country where its own army occupies a people who want out of the Indian Union. India is a democratic counctry where it wages war against its neighbouring countries VIA wars to dismember them or absorb them into its country. India is a democratic country where a large proportion of its citizens are denied their rights to demoracy, liberty and life (the dalits) and finally India is a democratic country where it own prime minister has admitted that the naxilities are the greatest threat to its union. The naxalities are happen to be fighting for their rights in a democracy via armed insurrection rights to land life liberty and resources.



this is truly the worst comment so far on this website. Please think before you talk and dont talk like a small kid. I dont want to start again on the indo VS Pak thing again but please dont act like an idiot, everyone loves their country but before you start pointing fingers at other people base them on facts and look at yourself first. Pakistan isnt exactly the ideal neighbor also


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## Omar1984

*OIC panel calls for early settlement of Kashmir dispute​*
* Shah Mehmood Qureshi says settlement of dispute can help establish lasting peace in region

By Iftikhar Ali

UNITED NATIONS: Calling for the resolution of the Kashmir dispute as soon as possible, a ministerial-level panel of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC) on Monday regretted that India had put a "pause" on the dialogue with Pakistan. 

The OIC Contact Group, which met on the sidelines of the 64th session of the UN General Assembly on Monday, welcomed the meeting between the prime ministers of India and Pakistan at Sharm el Sheikh, saying dialogue between the two countries was the only way forward. The contact group adopted a declaration, taking note of India's statement after the Sharm el Sheikh meeting that it was ready to discuss all issues with Pakistan, including Kashmir. The declaration called for a peaceful settlement of the Kashmir dispute "in accordance with UN resolutions and as agreed upon in the 1972 Simla Agreement". The group, chaired by OIC Secretary-General Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, called for an annual review of development in the decades-old Kashmir dispute.

In his inaugural address, the OIC secretary general expressed solidarity with the Kashmiri people and hoped that peace process between India and Pakistan would resume soon and yield the desired results.

Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi, Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu, All-Parties Hurriyat Conference Chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Azad Jammu and Kashmir Prime Minister Sardar Muhammad Yaqoob Khan, Kashmiri-American Council Executive Director Dr Ghulam Nabi Fai and ambassadors of Saudi Arabia and Niger were also present.

Durable peace: "We believe that a settlement of this long festering dispute can help establish durable peace in the region," Qureshi said in a speech. "It can also open numerous vistas of mutually beneficial cooperation between Pakistan and India. Recalling previous OIC and relevant UN resolutions, the contact group urged India and Pakistan to "expeditiously resolve all outstanding issues, including the core issue of Kashmir". The declaration also urged the international community to take "effective steps" for safeguarding the rights of the Kashmiri people, including the right to self-determination. Addressing the contact group, Qureshi said the Kashmiri people continued to demand their basic right to self-determination even after 60 years. "For years, Pakistan, the OIC, and the international community, have expressed concerns on the consistent violation of human rights of the Kashmiri people," he said. The FM said the government and people of Pakistan stood by the Kashmiri people. "As in the past, we condemn the use of force and demand respect for human rights of the people of Kashmir.

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## Omar1984

* International probe should be ordered into Kashmir encounters: Qureshi *


New York, Sep.29 (ANI): Pakistan Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi has said that an international probe should be conducted to investigate the recent encounters by the Indian security forces in Kashmir.

Interacting with media persons in New York, Qureshi said the recent incidents in Kashmir indicated the struggle of the people of that region.

&#8220;The recent incidents in Kashmir are a reflection of an indigenous struggle of the Kashmiri people for independence,&#8221; The Dawn quoted Qureshi, as saying.

Qureshi welcomed the confidence building measure taken by India and said the bilateral peace process between both the nations should resume soon.

He, however, said the talks were not a substitute for settlement of the Kashmir dispute. (ANI)


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## Hyde

OIC is holding no power in the World despite the fact that almost all of the Muslim nations are its members

nothing will happen, this is not America, that can invade Iraq or Afghanistan first and take the permission from the United Nations afterwards and can blackmail UN at their own will. This is OIC that is holding no power in real and only good for stats


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## Omar1984

*PM Gilani links relations with India to Kashmir solution ​*
* Clash between institutions can prove fatal for country 
* Rs 870m allocated for Gilgit-Baltistan health sector

By Irfan Ghauri 

GILGIT: Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani said on Tuesday that good neighbourly relations with India are not possible without the resolution of the Kashmir dispute. 

We want good relations with all our neighbours  be it China, India, Afghanistan or Iran. But we want these relations based on equality. We are an atomic power. Without a resolution to the Kashmir issue, good relations (with India) are not possible, said Gilani while addressing a public gathering in Gilgit. He said peace in the region was not possible if the dispute was not settled in line with the aspirations of the people of Kashmir. He also said that Pakistan wanted to resume the composite dialogue process with India. 

The prime minister said elections in Gilgit-Baltistan would be held under the judiciarys supervision. He said a level playing field would be provided to all political parties. 

Gilani said he was visiting Gilgit-Baltistan despite security concerns, as he had strong faith in people of the area who stood by him. He called for the elimination of sectarian differences, and said a few quarters were trying to disturb peace in the area by fanning sectarianism. 

You will witness a well-established effective communication network, attractions for tourists, massive tree plantation and an efficient and modern police force in the area, he said, and asked the chief secretary to brief him on development plans for Gilgit-Baltistan. 

Gilani also announced a development package for Gilgit-Baltistan. He said Rs 870 million had been allocated to the Gilgit-Baltistan health sector, and announced the establishment of a medical college in the area. He announced the provision of an ambulance for each district and tehsil hospital. 

He said 150,000 metric tonnes of wheat would be subsidised for Gilgit-Baltistan, while a research centre would be set up to study horticulture. 

Gilani also ordered that the Hunza Nagar district commissioner be appointed within a week. 

He said Rs 6.5 billion had already been allocated for development in Gilgit-Baltistan and Rs 5.5 billion for capacity building. 

He said 540 schools had been transferred to the National Education Foundation to improve their quality. He also ordered the establishment of a NAVTEC bureau in the area. 

Gilani said a quota would be reserved for local officers in foreign and national training programmes, and announced a basic salary of Rs 6,000. 

Gilani directed Gilgit-Baltistan acting Governor Qamar Zaman Kaira to allocate land for a housing scheme for the low-income group. He also announced a housing colony for journalists in Gilgit-Baltistan. 

He also announced that the Skardu and Gilgit airport would be upgraded, and the Sost Dry Port improved. 

Addressing a luncheon reception after presiding over a meeting of the Gilgit-Baltistan administration, Gilani said a clash between institutions could be fatal for the country.

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## Hulk

Omar1984 said:


> * International probe should be ordered into Kashmir encounters: Qureshi *
> 
> 
> New York, Sep.29 (ANI): Pakistan Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi has said that an international probe should be conducted to investigate the recent encounters by the Indian security forces in Kashmir.
> 
> Interacting with media persons in New York, Qureshi said the recent incidents in Kashmir indicated the struggle of the people of that region.
> 
> The recent incidents in Kashmir are a reflection of an indigenous struggle of the Kashmiri people for independence, The Dawn quoted Qureshi, as saying.
> 
> Qureshi welcomed the confidence building measure taken by India and said the bilateral peace process between both the nations should resume soon.
> 
> He, however, said the talks were not a substitute for settlement of the Kashmir dispute. (ANI)



Mr Qureshi should first allow FBI to talk to 26/11 accussed then talk about India. There is lot to hide otherwise why you are shy of not even allowing FBI to question them.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

indianrabbit said:


> Mr Qureshi should first allow FBI to talk to 26/11 accussed then talk about India. There is lot to hide otherwise why you are shy of not even allowing FBI to question them.



Lets not go off topic here - Kashmir is internationally recognized disputed territory, hence the call for an international probe.


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## Hulk

Not sure what these calls will do. I do not see anything on ground, so what exactly people achieve by such calls, media attention, addressing local people.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

indianrabbit said:


> Not sure what these calls will do. I do not see anything on ground, so what exactly people achieve by such calls, media attention, addressing local people.



Of course its about 'awareness' and 'PR' - Pakistan knows India does not like Kashmir being internationalized, and so long as India refuses to restart talks, Pakistan has decided to revert back to the position of raising Kashmir internationally.

Will it tangibly affect anything? Not really, but that's not the point behind raising the issue internationally.

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## Hulk

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Of course its about 'awareness' and 'PR' - Pakistan knows India does not like Kashmir being internationalized, and so long as India refuses to restart talks, Pakistan has decided to revert back to the position of raising Kashmir internationally.
> 
> Will it tangibly affect anything? Not really, but that's not the point behind raising the issue internationally.



Got your point, this clearifies that Pakistan is least interested on doing anything on 26/11. All they are interested is on Kashmir, well if Pakistan knows how to show the world they are senciere on probe and do nothing, we can also delay dialogue on Kashmir. This is not going to work not for another decade for sure anyone wants to take bet.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

indianrabbit said:


> Got your point, this clearifies that Pakistan is least interested on doing anything on 26/11. All they are interested is on Kashmir, well if Pakistan knows how to show the world they are senciere on probe and do nothing, we can also delay dialogue on Kashmir. This is not going to work not for another decade for sure anyone wants to take bet.



I am not sure how you get from Pakistan's focus on Kashmir to 'least interested in doing anything about the Mumbai accused'.

A nation can, and usually does, focus on multiple issues at any given time.

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## EjazR

_Told you this will be big news_

Vohra to recommend Rukhsana for bravery award 

Jammu and Kashmir Governor N.N. Vohra on Tuesday lauded Rajouri girl Rukhsana for fighting terrorists at her village home and killing one of them. 

Vohra said he would seek a formal report from the state DGP on Rukhsana's encounter with the terrorists and recommend her for bravery awards. He also announced he would call the 19-year-old to Raj Bhavan and honour her.

Earlier, Rukhsana's daring act drew praise from across political parties. While RJD chief Lalu Yadav said she deserved a bravery award, the BJP's Shahnawaz Hussain said: "Rukhsana's act is a reply to all those who think they can get the support of Muslims in the name of jihad."

Rukhsana has now turned into a role model not only for her village but the whole of Jammu and Kashmir.

"She should be provided proper security as her act of courage is bound to disturb the terrorists' plans," said Kamal Farooqi, chairman of Delhi State Minority Commission.

Lauding Rukhsana, Mahmood A. Madani of the Rashtriya Lok Dal said: "Terrorism cannot be rooted out unless ordinary citizens stand up and face the terrorists."

*Taking inspiration from Rukhsana, a girl in Srinagar said: "The women of Kashmir will have to be bolder for the sake of their security."*

*Another girl said: "Rukhsana gave a befitting reply to the terrorists and made it clear that the women of Kashmir are no longer what they used to be." *

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## Bhushan

*Watch video here*


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## pakomar

that s a good one .who killed who no one knows?????


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## MZUBAIR

hembo said:


> @ MZUBAIR
> 
> I am a little disapointed with your salutation of the terrorists. I thought you were among the sane ones here.
> 
> @ All posters
> 
> Those members who are calling the terrorist of LET as martyrs and freedom fighters are going against their own government as LET is in banned terrorist list of GOP. If someone still openly supports activists of this type of banned organization, GOP should prosecute the supporters for being sympathizers of terrorist organization and treason to Pakistan. Period



I am discussing abt the freedom fighters.....who face cruel activities of Indian militant soldiers and policmen.

Look at the pic of todays news paper. 











I think standing against cruel nation or army is the best thing of Kashmiries and I salut them.

*Kashmir will never become Indias part*


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## MZUBAIR

ashwin said:


> why are you whinning when Kashmiris aka Indians are kicking the a$$ of these freedom fighters?



Kashmiries are freedom fighters....other are fake news.

Go and sleep now.....Kashmir will never become the part of India


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## ek_indian

MZUBAIR said:


> Kashmiries are freedom fighters....other are fake news.



Shows sign of frustation. You can easily call anything fake without any counter proof.



MZUBAIR said:


> Go and sleep now.....Kashmir will never become the part of India


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## MZUBAIR

ek_indian said:


> Shows sign of frustation. You can easily call anything fake without any counter proof.



No frustration.......truth is bitter and hard to digest for India.


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## third eye

MZUBAIR said:


> Kashmiries are freedom fighters....other are fake news.
> 
> Go and sleep now.....*Kashmir will never become the part of India*




... but it already is !

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## pakomar

third eye said:


> [/B]
> 
> ... but it already is !



already by force ,killing.


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## MZUBAIR

third eye said:


> [/B]
> 
> ... but it already is !



Kashmiri people dont accept it......its in ur dreams.
Keep dreaming.


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## pakomar

Kashmir&#8217;s make black day on 15 august that clearly show they do not want to be with Indians.


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## pakomar

ek_indian said:


> Shows sign of frustation. You can easily call anything fake without any counter proof.



This shows India side of frustration that now they are reporting this type of stories.


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## MZUBAIR

third eye said:


> [/B]
> 
> ... but it already is !



Kashmiri enjoy when India lose against Pak in Cricket match.....They burn Indian flag on 15th August.

They celebrate 14th August.

They rise Pakistani flgs.....

&#1589;&#1583;&#1585; &#1570;&#1589;&#1601; &#1593;&#1604;&#1740; &#1586;&#1585;&#1583;&#1575;&#1585;&#1740; :
&#1705;&#1588;&#1605;&#1740;&#1585;&#1740; &#1593;&#1608;&#1575;&#1605; &#1705;&#1740; &#1589;&#1585;&#1601; &#1587;&#1740;&#1575;&#1587;&#1740; &#1608; &#1575;&#1582;&#1604;&#1575;&#1602;&#1740; &#1606;&#1729;&#1740;&#1722; &#1593;&#1605;&#1604;&#1740; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583; &#1705;&#1585;&#1740;&#1722;


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62 &#1672;&#1740;&#1605; &#1605;&#1705;&#1605;&#1604; &#1705;&#1585;&#1705;&#1746; &#1576;&#1726;&#1575;&#1585;&#1578; &#1729;&#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1576;&#1606;&#1580;&#1585; &#1589;&#1581;&#1585;&#1575;&#1574;&#1608;&#1722; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1576;&#1583;&#1604; &#1583;&#1740;&#1711;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1729; &#1606;&#1729; &#1705;&#1585;&#1746; &#1705;&#1729; &#1575;&#1740;&#1587;&#1575; &#1576;&#1585;&#1575; &#1608;&#1602;&#1578; &#1570;&#1574;&#1746;&#1748;

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## Y2A

ashwin said:


> why are you whinning when Kashmiris aka Indians are kicking the a$$ of these freedom fighters?



AKA Indians ? it seems that some buddy else is whining .


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## Gabbar

pakomar said:


> Kashmirs make black day on 15 august that clearly show they do not want to be with Indians.



Some seperate factions do, but not all kashmiries.


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## Gabbar

pakomar said:


> This shows India side of frustration that now they are reporting this type of stories.



Frustration spilling from you guys who cant accept and digest a news agains terrotists. Where is you sense of honor for the Kashmiries when they fight militents?

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## Gabbar

MZUBAIR said:


> Kashmiri enjoy when India lose against Pak in Cricket match.....They burn Indian flag on 15th August.
> 
> They celebrate 14th August.
> 
> They rise Pakistani flgs.....
> 
> &#1589;&#1583;&#1585; &#1570;&#1589;&#1601; &#1593;&#1604;&#1740; &#1586;&#1585;&#1583;&#1575;&#1585;&#1740; :
> &#1705;&#1588;&#1605;&#1740;&#1585;&#1740; &#1593;&#1608;&#1575;&#1605; &#1705;&#1740; &#1589;&#1585;&#1601; &#1587;&#1740;&#1575;&#1587;&#1740; &#1608; &#1575;&#1582;&#1604;&#1575;&#1602;&#1740; &#1606;&#1729;&#1740;&#1722; &#1593;&#1605;&#1604;&#1740; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583; &#1705;&#1585;&#1740;&#1722;
> 
> 
> &#1600; 2 &#1711;&#1726;&#1606;&#1657;&#1746; 32 &#1605;&#1606;&#1657; &#1662;&#1729;&#1604;&#1746; &#1588;&#1575;&#1574;&#1593; &#1705;&#1740; &#1711;&#1574;&#1740; &#1589;&#1583;&#1585; &#1570;&#1589;&#1601; &#1593;&#1604;&#1740; &#1586;&#1585;&#1583;&#1575;&#1585;&#1740; &#1606;&#1746; &#1705;&#1729;&#1575; &#1729;&#1746; &#1705;&#1729; &#1662;&#1575;&#1705;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1576;&#1726;&#1575;&#1585;&#1578; &#1705;&#1746; &#1583;&#1585;&#1605;&#1740;&#1575;&#1606; &#1729;&#1585; &#1605;&#1585;&#1581;&#1604;&#1729; &#1662;&#1585; &#1729;&#1608;&#1606;&#1746; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1740; &#1576;&#1575;&#1578; &#1670;&#1740;&#1578; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1605;&#1587;&#1574;&#1604;&#1729; &#1705;&#1588;&#1605;&#1740;&#1585; &#1587;&#1585;&#1601;&#1729;&#1585;&#1587;&#1578; &#1585;&#1729;&#1746; &#1711;&#1575; &#1662;&#1575;&#1705;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606; &#1605;&#1587;&#1574;&#1604;&#1729; &#1705;&#1588;&#1605;&#1740;&#1585; &#1587;&#1746; &#1670;&#1588;&#1605; &#1662;&#1608;&#1588;&#1740; &#1705;&#1585;&#1705;&#1746; &#1576;&#1726;&#1575;&#1585;&#1578; &#1587;&#1746; &#1578;&#1593;&#1604;&#1602;&#1575;&#1578; &#1576;&#1681;&#1726;&#1575;&#1606;&#1575; &#1670;&#1575;&#1729;&#1578;&#1575; &#1729;&#1746; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1606;&#1729; &#1608;&#1729; &#1576;&#1726;&#1575;&#1585;&#1578; &#1587;&#1746; &#1578;&#1580;&#1575;&#1585;&#1578; &#1605;&#1587;&#1574;&#1604;&#1729; &#1705;&#1588;&#1605;&#1740;&#1585; &#1705;&#1740; &#1602;&#1740;&#1605;&#1578; &#1662;&#1585; &#1705;&#1585;&#1740;&#1711;&#1575;&#1748; &#1581;&#1585;&#1740;&#1578; &#1585;&#1729;&#1606;&#1605;&#1575;&#1569; &#1605;&#1740;&#1585; &#1608;&#1575;&#1593;&#1592; &#1593;&#1605;&#1585; &#1601;&#1575;&#1585;&#1608;&#1602; &#1587;&#1746; &#1605;&#1604;&#1575;&#1602;&#1575;&#1578; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1589;&#1583;&#1585; &#1570;&#1589;&#1601; &#1593;&#1604;&#1740; &#1586;&#1585;&#1583;&#1575;&#1585;&#1740; &#1606;&#1746; &#1705;&#1729;&#1575; &#1705;&#1729; &#1581;&#1705;&#1608;&#1605;&#1578; &#1705;&#1588;&#1605;&#1740;&#1585;&#1740;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1740; &#1587;&#1740;&#1575;&#1587;&#1740; &#1608; &#1575;&#1582;&#1604;&#1575;&#1602;&#1740; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583; &#1580;&#1575;&#1585;&#1740; &#1585;&#1705;&#1726;&#1746; &#1711;&#1740;&#1748;
> &#1662;&#1575;&#1705;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1576;&#1726;&#1575;&#1585;&#1578; &#1705;&#1746; &#1605;&#1575;&#1576;&#1740;&#1606; &#1705;&#1588;&#1740;&#1583;&#1711;&#1740; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1578;&#1606;&#1575;&#1574;&#1608; &#1705;&#1740; &#1576;&#1606;&#1740;&#1575;&#1583;&#1740; &#1608;&#1580;&#1729; &#1578;&#1606;&#1575;&#1586;&#1593;&#1729; &#1705;&#1588;&#1605;&#1740;&#1585; &#1729;&#1746; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1605;&#1587;&#1574;&#1604;&#1729; &#1705;&#1588;&#1605;&#1740;&#1585; &#1705;&#1740; &#1608;&#1580;&#1729; &#1587;&#1746; &#1583;&#1740;&#1711;&#1585; &#1578;&#1606;&#1575;&#1586;&#1593;&#1575;&#1578; &#1662;&#1740;&#1583;&#1575; &#1729;&#1608;&#1574;&#1746;&#1748; &#1576;&#1726;&#1575;&#1585;&#1578; &#1662;&#1575;&#1705;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606; &#1705;&#1740;&#1582;&#1604;&#1575;&#1601; &#1575;&#1587; &#1608;&#1602;&#1578; &#1580;&#1608; &#1570;&#1576;&#1740; &#1583;&#1729;&#1588;&#1578; &#1711;&#1585;&#1583;&#1740; &#1705;&#1585;&#1585;&#1729;&#1575; 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> &#1670;&#1608;&#1606;&#1705;&#1729; &#1576;&#1726;&#1575;&#1585;&#1578; &#1580;&#1575;&#1606;&#1578;&#1575; &#1729;&#1746; &#1705;&#1729; &#1575;&#1587;&#1578;&#1589;&#1608;&#1575;&#1576; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1705;&#1588;&#1605;&#1740;&#1585;&#1740; &#1593;&#1608;&#1575;&#1605; &#1705;&#1740; &#1705;&#1740;&#1575; &#1585;&#1575;&#1574;&#1746; &#1587;&#1575;&#1605;&#1606;&#1746; &#1570;&#1574;&#1740;&#1711;&#1740; &#1575;&#1587; &#1604;&#1574;&#1746; &#1608;&#1729; &#1585;&#1608;&#1586;&#1575;&#1608;&#1604; &#1587;&#1746; &#1606;&#1729; &#1589;&#1585;&#1601; &#1575;&#1602;&#1608;&#1575;&#1605; &#1605;&#1578;&#1581;&#1583;&#1729; &#1705;&#1740; &#1602;&#1585;&#1575;&#1585;&#1583;&#1575;&#1583;&#1608;&#1722; &#1576;&#1604;&#1705;&#1729; &#1593;&#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1740; &#1601;&#1608;&#1585;&#1605;&#1586; &#1662;&#1585; &#1705;&#1574;&#1746; &#1711;&#1574;&#1746; &#1580;&#1608;&#1575;&#1729;&#1585; &#1604;&#1593;&#1604; &#1606;&#1729;&#1585;&#1608; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1583;&#1740;&#1711;&#1585; 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> &#1705;&#1588;&#1605;&#1740;&#1585;&#1740; &#1593;&#1608;&#1575;&#1605; &#1575;&#1662;&#1606;&#1740; &#1576;&#1602;&#1575;&#1574; &#1581;&#1602; &#1582;&#1608;&#1583;&#1575;&#1585;&#1575;&#1583;&#1740;&#1578; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1576;&#1606;&#1740;&#1575;&#1583;&#1740; &#1575;&#1606;&#1587;&#1575;&#1606;&#1740; &#1581;&#1602;&#1608;&#1602; &#1705;&#1746; &#1593;&#1604;&#1575;&#1608;&#1729; &#1662;&#1575;&#1705;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606; &#1587;&#1746; &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1575;&#1602; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1729;&#1605;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1602;&#1608;&#1605;&#1740; &#1608; &#1593;&#1604;&#1575;&#1602;&#1575;&#1574;&#1740; &#1605;&#1601;&#1575;&#1583;&#1575;&#1578; &#1705;&#1740; &#1580;&#1606;&#1711; &#1604;&#1681; &#1585;&#1729;&#1746; &#1729;&#1740;&#1722;&#1748; &#1575;&#1606;&#1729;&#1608;&#1722; &#1606;&#1746; &#1570;&#1580; &#1578;&#1705; &#1575;&#1602;&#1608;&#1575;&#1605; &#1605;&#1578;&#1581;&#1583;&#1729; &#1705;&#1740; &#1602;&#1585;&#1575;&#1585;&#1583;&#1575;&#1583;&#1608;&#1722; 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Looks like trying very hard to derail the thread. 

PS: Not everyone here can read Urdu you know.

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## Gabbar

pakomar said:


> This shows India side of frustration that now they are reporting this type of stories.



Did you happened to read the Internationl news, such as BBC, as well?


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## hembo

*Guys, avoid the trolls who are hell bent on derailing the thread. Getting back to the topic:*

*Reward, protection for girl, family who killed militant*
Tue, Sep 29 09:45 PM

Srinagar/Jammu, Sept 29 (PTI) Jammu and Kashmir government has provided Rs 5,000 as reward and police protection to the young girl who killed a militant in Rajouri district and her family and Governor N N Vohra today said he wanted to recommend her for gallantry award. 15 policemen, along with an officer, would be assigned the task of protecting the family of 22-year-old Ruksana who killed a top Pakistani militant of Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM) outfit leader and injured another at Kalsian village, about 217 km from here, on the night of September 27, SSP, Rajouri, Shafkat Wattali said.

A reward of Rs 5,000 was given to the family while recommendations for providing them Rs three to four lakh has been made to higher authorities, Wattali said. Governor Vohra has asked for a report from the Director General of Police so that based on it he would recommend the young girl for a gallantry award.

The Governor also intends to invite the girl to honour her at the Raj Bhavan, a government statement issued here this evening said. A top Pakistani militant of JeM was killed while another terrorist fled from the scene as Ruksana, with the help of her siblings, charged back at the ultras who had entered into her house to terrorise her parents.

Recalling her feat, Ruksana said three militants had barged into her house while some others stood guard outside. "They beat up our parents and "we attacked them with an axe.

I just went charging, pulled the hair of one militant, snatched his gun and fired", she said.

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## ejaz007

third eye said:


> [/B]
> 
> ... but it already is !



Kashmir is not an integral part of India. The resolution regarding Kashmir joining Pakistan or India is still pending before the UN.


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## Khajur

ek_indian said:


> Shows sign of frustation. You can easily call anything fake without any counter proof.



*The frustation is clearly understandable when a kashmiri that too a woman killed a terrorists they call freedom fighter.*

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## blueoval79

ejaz007 said:


> Kashmir is not an integral part of India. The resolution regarding Kashmir joining Pakistan or India is still pending before the UN.



Yup...just like ...Punjaab...oops....Khalistan was not a part of India....

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## vsdoc

It is a proud day for all Indians when supposedly weak and unarmed Indian girls are more than a match for these jihadi scum. And this coincidently comes smack dab bang on the back of India deploying women troops on our border. Other symbolic overtones which no doubt would have crossed every Indian's mind would be of the axing happening so close on the heels of Durga Puja. 

Proud nationalistic rhetoric aside, it speaks volumes for the guts and bravery of our Indian ladies, our modern day Jhansi ki Ranis! The entire nation is proud of Ruksana and Rashida bi and salute their exemplary bravery, and it is yet another reminder to those who want to foment trouble in India that our brave Kashmiri men and women will stand shoulder to shoulder with our armed forces in protecting our motherland from hostile forces - foreign and domestic. 

As a proud father of two daughters myself, all I can say is that our women are our strength and have always stood shoulder to shoulder with us in all walks of life.

Cheers, Doc

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## sob

This is indeed a very brave step taken by the very courageous young lady.

These terrorists have been forcibly having their way with women in isolated villages and it is high time that they were given a fitting reply.


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## Developereo

The Indian media's desperation is palpable.

After getting a humiliating dose of reality check over the Chinese "border intrusion" fiasco, the Indian media is trying to lick its wounds by falling back on the tried and true anti-Pakistan story line.

And the brainwashed Indian masses are lapping it up pathetically like any Bollywood story.

The "news" itself has undergone several variations to try out the most effective propaganda line. In some versions, the intruders are identified as 'gunmen'; in others they become 'militants'; in the more hyperbolic versions they are identified by Indian police rofl as none other than high level LeT commanders. 

It couldn't be just a bunch of ordinary criminals, now, could it??? Got to spice up the story and use it to pump up the egos of frustrated basementboi losers playing video games.

In their delusions of grandeur, the Indians subconsciously emulate the Americans, acting like they are the regional superpower. They turn every ordinary crime into a terrorism incident to drum up jingoistic fervor. India tried desperately to equate Mumbai with 9/11; the fact that it failed and the rest of the world has mostly ignored Indian theatrics has only deepened Indian frustration.

Hey, don't despair, maybe the Indian police  will discover that the killed militant was one of the planners of the Mumbai affair.

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## blueoval79

^^^^^^

Oh come on....give that brave girl her share of respect and encouragement........

Its not about media...its about a women .......proving to some terrorists that she can kick some AZZ too.....why only Kick..She can Blast an AZZ for sure.....


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## manishmaithani

Jana said:


> Why not in the past too Indian army used to rape and killed and put it on freedom fighters.
> 
> India in the past had created a fake militants/freedom fighters' group in Held Kashmir to infiltrate freedom fighters. This group used to kill Hindus and Sikhs and blam it on Kashmiri freedom fighters.



You are right,because of indian army sikh's and kashmiri pandit's left the valley.

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## Khajur

Developereo said:


> The "news" itself has undergone several variations to try out the most effective propaganda line. In some versions, the intruders are identified as 'gunmen'; in others they become 'militants'; in the more hyperbolic versions they are identified by Indian police rofl as none other than high level LeT commanders.



u can carry on checking the minute variations ,discrepancies,change of time in minutes & second ...doing ur best to ignore the bravery the teenage gal who faught back for her life and honour.

Some militant sympathiser might've her loose her life and honour in name of freedom struggle ,but that gal certainly had other ideas.



> *It couldn't be just a bunch of ordinary criminals, now, could it??? *Got to spice up the story and use it to pump up the egos of frustrated basementboi losers playing video games.


No,ordinary criminals dont carry AK-47 assult rifles.

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## Developereo

blueoval79 said:


> Oh come on....give that brave girl her share of respect and encouragement........



*Nowhere* in my post did I ever downplay the bravery of the woman. She is indeed a hero.

All I am saying is that these were ordinary thugs. The media is spicing it up to sensationalize it.



Khajur said:


> No,ordinary criminals dont carry AK-47 assult rifles.



Assault rifles are a dime-a-dozen in any militarized conflict zone. I have known teenage street thugs in the US who could get their hands on a Uzi. You think a criminal is going to have any trouble getting hold of an AK-47 if he really wants one?


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## blueoval79

Developereo said:


> *Nowhere* in my post did I ever downplay the bravery of the woman. She is indeed a hero.
> 
> All I am saying is that these were ordinary thugs. The media is spicing it up to sensationalize it.
> 
> 
> 
> Assault rifles are a dime-a-dozen in any militarized conflict zone. I have known teenage street thugs in the US who could get their hands on a Uzi. You think a criminal is going to have any trouble getting hold of an AK-47 if he really wants one?




And where will these common thugs...get their AK 47 from.....that too in a heavily Militarized state of J&K.... Its India buddy...not Pakistan..where you can move into a shop and Say Give me a Klashnikove ...and buy if for 20000 PKR.

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## Khajur

Developereo said:


> Assault rifles are a dime-a-dozen in any militarized conflict zone. I have known teenage street thugs in the US who could get their hands on a Uzi. You think a criminal is going to have any trouble getting hold of an AK-47 if he really wants one?



On the contrary,this is kashmir ,india we are talking about, where owning an illegal desi gun can invite to interrogation by security forces for several ours.

Ordinary pity criminals dont usually prefer to die a martyr's death in an encounter for carrying AKs with security forces.

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## vsdoc

I feel we need to celebrate the bravery of our countrywomen and the popular nationalistic sentiment growing by the day in Kashmir at the grass-root level rather than respond to trolls trying to derail the thread. 

The thread is about *Kashmiri muslim* women hacking to death *jihadi scum*. What other reaction do you expect from the pakistani side but to try and downplay their identity to "common criminals"? Remember what happened in Kargil after the loss? Remember what happened in Mumbai? This is no different. After all there is really no national macho glory in going in with an AK47 and getting hacked with an axe ..... by a woman no less, now is there? 

Remember the statements on the other thread by some of our Pakistani brothers about our women soldiers on the border and how the "purity and manhood" of Pakistani forces would not even allow them to engage such a "woman's army"? 

Well, those same guys are cringing out here behind their keyboards unable to post a suitable reply ..... or as in the few cases like the one above, try and dilute the significance by instantly washing their hands off having any links with the perpetrators. No righteous cries of "glorious freedom fighters" here ...... rather the more acceptably mundane "common criminal" ...... of course the insinuation being the nationality of the "criminal" being conveniently indigenous and not imported from the other side.

Please give us a break from your hugely transparent and embarrassingly desperate attempts at saving face guys ..... none of us were born yesterday. 

Cheers, Doc

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## luoshan

Khajur said:


> On the contrary,this is kashmir ,india we are talking about, where owning an illegal desi gun can invite to interrogation by security forces for several ours.
> 
> Ordinary pity criminals dont usually prefer to die a martyr's death in an encounter for carrying AKs with security forces.



probably he is confused Pakistan's NWFP gun culture with Kashmir.

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## manishmaithani

MZUBAIR said:


> 3 militants, woman killed in gunfighting in India-controlled Kashmir
> 
> 
> 
> English_Xinhua 2009-09-28 19:18:13 Print
> 
> SRINAGAR, India-controlled Kashmir, Sept. 28 (Xinhua) -- Three militants and a civilian woman were killed and two paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) troopers were injured in a gunfighting Monday in India-controlled Kashmir, police and paramilitary said.
> 
> The gunfighting broke out in Amlar-Tral village of Pulwama district, 37 km south of Srinagar, the summer capital of India-controlled Kashmir.
> 
> "The encounter broke during the morning hours today after a search party comprising of paramilitary troopers and police launched a search operation to trace militants present in the area. The militants fired upon the party who was advancing towards their position and thus initiated a gun battle. The standoff lasted for several hours and culminated with the killing of three militants possibly belonging to Lashker-e-Toiba (LeT). In the gunfight two of our troopers were also injured," said CRPF spokesman, Prabhakar Triphati in Srinagar.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Superintendent of Police, Awantipora, Bashir Ahmad Khan said that during the exchange of fire a civilian woman were also killed.
> 
> "Besides three militants one civilian woman has also got killed in the exchange of fire. We are trying to ascertain under what circumstances was the woman killed," said Khan.
> 
> Police has also claimed recovery of three assault rifles and some ammunition from the slain militants.
> 
> The gun fighting between militants and Indian army troopers in India-controlled Kashmir takes place intermittently.
> 
> Police and defense officials maintain that most of the times the operations triggering gun fights are carried out on prior information about presence of militants in specific areas.
> _________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> *Salut to those Kashmiri people who fight against Indian militant forces*



*Salut to those Balochi people who fight against Pakistani militant forces*

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## Developereo

blueoval79 said:


> And where will these common thugs...get their AK 47 from





Khajur said:


> On the contrary,this is kashmir ,india we are talking about, where owning an illegal desi gun can invite to interrogation by security forces for several ours.





luoshan said:


> probably he is confused Pakistan's NWFP gun culture with Kashmir.



Once again, you guys are welcome to live in a pollyanna world of nicey nice, but the reality is that criminals don't follow gun control laws. Especially if they are in any way related to drug trafficking.

As I said, criminals can get assault weapons *anywhere* in the world. I personally knew teenage thugs in San Diego who carried Uzis. I can guarantee you *100&#37;* that you could get an AK-47 in Mumbai or New Delhi, never mind Kashmir, if you really wanted to.

We are not talking about you or me walking into a corner hardware store. These are criminals we are talking about.


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## duhastmish

manishmaithani said:


> *Salut to those Balochi people who fight against Pakistani militant forces*



*dont stoop to such low level - for no reason and no person. i will never accept killing of even a single - paksitani in the name of relgion or jihad - by talebani or blochi or indian raw or any islamic religious organization. *

*i will never support talebani or bloch. its their own internal matter and if there is any problem going on in pakistan - the answer can not be lifting a gun. 

the soultion can only be through peace. 

i hope to see same - view from paksitanis . these so called jihadi on all the sides of paksitan .

kashmri , taleban , bloch are not fightign for relgion they are just following violence for their political gain. You can never get heard - with the guns - a peace ful march will give you respect . and a bulelt will only make a worth less piece of shyt terrorist. *

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## Y2A

vsdoc said:


> It is a proud day for all Indians when supposedly weak and unarmed Indian girls are more than a match for these jihadi scum. And this coincidently comes smack dab bang on the back of India deploying women troops on our border. Other symbolic overtones which no doubt would have crossed every Indian's mind would be of the axing happening so close on the heels of Durga Puja.
> 
> Proud nationalistic rhetoric aside, it speaks volumes for the guts and bravery of our Indian ladies, our modern day Jhansi ki Ranis! The entire nation is proud of Ruksana and Rashida bi and salute their exemplary bravery, and it is yet another reminder to those who want to foment trouble in India that our brave Kashmiri men and women will stand shoulder to shoulder with our armed forces in protecting our motherland from hostile forces - foreign and domestic.
> 
> As a proud father of two daughters myself, all I can say is that our women are our strength and have always stood shoulder to shoulder with us in all walks of life.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Very "inspirational" speech one has to say, mixing the morals of ethics and family values together and getting the ultimate taste of implication out for self satisfaction, good.

but what gentleman has ignored or tried to deliberately overlook is the fact that people of Kashmir has never accepted the imposed identity of indian union upon themselves, their are many accounts where KASHMIRIS have denied, rejected to be called or SERVE as INDIAN or accept the any indian oriented identit.

if they would've accepted it, then their would be no such uprising as it is evident, so keep that in mind before budging on with the buzz.



vsdoc said:


> Indian girls are more than a match for these jihadi scum



Kindly stay few step away from revealing the level of INTER FAITH SCHOLAR you posses inside, JIHAD is part of Muslim faith, and it is further beyond the flight of your imagination which seems limited in this regard.


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## duhastmish

Developereo said:


> Once again, you guys are welcome to live in a pollyanna world of nicey nice, but the reality is that criminals don't follow gun control laws. Especially if they are in any way related to drug trafficking.
> 
> As I said, criminals can get assault weapons *anywhere* in the world. I personally knew teenage thugs in San Diego who carried Uzis. I can guarantee you *100%* that you could get an AK-47 in Mumbai or New Delhi, never mind Kashmir, if you really wanted to.
> 
> We are not talking about you or me walking into a corner hardware store. These are criminals we are talking about.



dont compare anywhere to paksitan !!!!! 

getting a illegal weapon in pakistan is way easier!!! there is a problem and paksitan must accept it.

no you can not get guns easily in india- simple example -* a bollywood star was found keeping ak-47 *

you know what happned to him ?????? 

---------- in india you can not get hold of assault rifle so easily. - the so called gun culture is one of biggest problem for Pakistan - they have to get rid of it. ------- and i really wish Pakistani goverment do it as soon as possible------- 

p.s - i never denied - that you can get guns in india or united states or any other country, but its way more diffuclt than getting one in pakistan.

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## Developereo

duhastmish said:


> p.s - i never denied - that you can get guns in india or united states or any other country, but its way more diffuclt than getting one in pakistan.



I don't dispute that it is far easier to get an illegal gun in NWFP than in Mumbai.

My point is that criminals don't shop for guns in hardware stores. They have their sources, and they can get weapons if they have got the cash.

Anywhere in the world.
Even Iceland.


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## ek_indian

Developereo said:


> The Indian media's desperation is palpable.



Indian media?? Wake up. Here is a clue

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Kashmir girl fights off militants



Developereo said:


> After getting a humiliating dose of reality check over the Chinese "border intrusion" fiasco, the Indian media is trying to lick its wounds by falling back on the tried and true anti-Pakistan story line.



Anti-Pakistan!! how? Or truth accidently came out? Sheer frustation anyone could see. BTW, I have provided you a _non-Indian_ media link.



Developereo said:


> And the brainwashed Indian masses are lapping it up pathetically like any Bollywood story.







Developereo said:


> The "news" itself has undergone several variations to try out the most effective propaganda line. In some versions, the intruders are identified as 'gunmen'; in others they become 'militants'; in the more hyperbolic versions they are identified by Indian police rofl as none other than high level LeT commanders.



Ok. You may choose anyone you wish. But one thing common. A poor Indian (coincidently a muslim belonigng to J&K though we do not see her different than any other Indian) killed one terrorist and injured other. Others were forced to run away.



Developereo said:


> It couldn't be just a bunch of ordinary criminals, now, could it??? Got to spice up the story and use it to pump up the egos of frustrated basementboi losers playing video games.



yes. Could be. It could be aliens as well.  However all media reports/administration/security is saying they were terrorists. 



Developereo said:


> In their delusions of grandeur, *the Indians subconsciously emulate the Americans*, acting like they are the regional superpower. They turn every ordinary crime into a terrorism incident to drum up jingoistic fervor. India tried desperately to equate Mumbai with 9/11; the fact that it failed and the rest of the world has mostly ignored Indian theatrics has only deepened Indian frustration.



Seems like ego is hurt. We are regional power whatever you cry about it. But it is offtopic. What has Mumbai has to do with it.



Developereo said:


> Hey, don't despair, maybe the Indian police  will discover that the killed militant was one of the planners of the Mumbai affair.



We are not worriyng my friend. Just cool down. This was not related to Mumbai. It is a fact that a the brave LeT guys were killed by kashmiri who happened to be a muslims as well. I understand what is going on here.


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## Y2A

duhastmish said:


> p.s - i never denied - that you can get guns in india or united states or any other country, but its way more diffuclt than getting one in pakistan.



*Perception # 18768977*
Negative approach is far easy to "approach" in Pakistan then any where in the world, get a life.


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## manishmaithani

duhastmish said:


> *dont stoop to such low level - for no reason and no person. i will never accept killing of even a single - paksitani in the name of relgion or jihad - by talebani or blochi or indian raw or any islamic religious organization. *
> 
> *i will never support talebani or bloch. its their own internal matter and if there is any problem going on in pakistan - the answer can not be lifting a gun.
> 
> the soultion can only be through peace.
> 
> i hope to see same - view from paksitanis . these so called jihadi on all the sides of paksitan .
> 
> kashmri , taleban , bloch are not fightign for relgion they are just following violence for their political gain. You can never get heard - with the guns - a peace ful march will give you respect . and a bulelt will only make a worth less piece of shyt terrorist. *



*Okey* Next time i will not read oxymoron things.


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## duhastmish

Y2A said:


> *Perception # 18768977*
> Negative approach is far easy to "approach" in Pakistan then any where in the world, get a life.



exactly that's the biggest problem in pakistan. denial of obvious. loool just search the google. 

but then again - why should you bother ? ignorance is bliss . . . . 

pakistan have their set of problem - if you always keep on saying that current situation are ideal for paksitan then . . . . . 


wish you good luck mate ! 


loool btw - it must be a joke - if you are tryign to say that - its easier to get guns in united states or india or eruope. looooolllll

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## Developereo

ek_indian said:


> Indian media?? Wake up. Here is a clue
> 
> BBC NEWS | South Asia | Kashmir girl fights off militants



Would this be the same BBC that copied verbatim, without independent verification, "reports" by Indian media that Musharraf admitted diverting US aid?



ek_indian said:


> A poor Indian (coincidently a muslim belonigng to J&K though we do not see her different than any other Indian) killed one terrorist and injured other.



Wrong. A brave woman killed an attacker with an AK-47. Was he a LeT member, a common criminal, or an off-duty Indian soldier? She doesn't know. All we have is the media's and Indian police's rofl statements.



ek_indian said:


> However all media reports/administration/security is saying they were terrorists.



Wrong. Indian media reports (some copied verbatim by Western media) claim that the attackers were LeT members.



ek_indian said:


> We are regional power whatever you cry about it.



Nobody is crying. We actually find it quite amusing every time India's neighbors rebuff her delusions.



duhastmish said:


> loool btw - it must be a joke - if you are tryign to say that - its easier to get guns in united states or india or eruope. looooolllll



See when you deliberately contradict my explicit statements, it doesn't bode well for the discussion.


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## vsdoc

Y2A said:


> JIHAD is part of Muslim faith, and it is further beyond the flight of your imagination which seems limited in this regard.



Just as it is part of *Indian* faith to put these jihadi scum 6 feet under. 

As far as we are concerned, we are least interested in the religious scholarly subtlities my friend, nor do we unlike you even try to make the distinction between a "good" and "bad" jihadi. 

If it has four legs, barks, and foams at the mouth, its a rabid dog and must be put down. Either by our armed forces ..... or by our common citizens. One way or the other, the jihadi will go down. 

Cheers, Doc

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## ek_indian

Developereo said:


> Would this be the same BBC that copied verbatim, without independent verification, "reports" by Indian media that Musharraf admitted diverting US aid?



You are calling the news non-credible without any logic or proof. 



Developereo said:


> Wrong. A brave woman killed an attacker with an AK-47. Was he a LeT member, a common criminal, or an off-duty Indian soldier? She doesn't know. All we have is the media's and Indian police's rofl statements.



And we don't have any statements/proofs/link from you yet.



Developereo said:


> Wrong. Indian media reports (some copied verbatim by Western media) claim that the attackers were LeT members.



First let us know who cpied who. Indian media copied western media or it is other way around. And what does the statement mean? They were LeT members but they were not terrorists.


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## Developereo

Y2A said:


> JIHAD is part of Muslim faith, and it is further beyond the flight of your imagination which seems limited in this regard.



Bro, please be careful and don't fall into the trap of bringing religion into all this.

Whoever these attackers were -- LeT, common criminals, Indian soldiers -- they deserved what they got. The family was brave and deserve 100&#37; respect.



ek_indian said:


> You are calling the news non-credible without any logic or proof.



I am calling the "news" suspect because of the source's lost credibility, especially in a controversial and sensitive context such as Kashmir.



ek_indian said:


> And we don't have any statements/proofs/link from you yet.



The onus of proof is on the party making the claims.



ek_indian said:


> First let us know who cpied who. Indian media copied western media or it is other way around.



Since this is an event in Indian occupied Kashmir, it is fairly safe to assume that the initial source of the "news" was Indian media.



ek_indian said:


> They were LeT members but they were not terrorists.



The only "proof" we have that they were LeT members is a statement by Indian police. Given the nature of the situation in Kashmir, that is a less-than-credible source.


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## Y2A

vsdoc said:


> Just as it is part of *Indian* faith to put these jihadi scum 6 feet under.
> 
> As far as we are concerned, we are least interested in the religious scholarly subtlities my friend, nor do we unlike you even try to make the distinction between a "good" and "bad" jihadi.
> 
> If it has four legs, barks, and foams at the mouth, its a rabid dog and must be put down. Either by our armed forces ..... or by our common citizens. One way or the other, the jihadi will go down.
> 
> Cheers, Doc


Good Luck then, you seriously going to need it when you will be running across the indian territory in search of the people to kill who are looking for their freedom against the suppression of messed up mindset of majority, independence of KASHMIR will be the 1st drop of the rain, good luck again, you going to need it, trust me.


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## ek_indian

Developereo said:


> The onus of proof is on the party making the claims.



Again same old line but no proof.

Young Kashmiri Braveheart Kills Dreaded Terrorist Commander - Sri Lanka



Developereo said:


> The only "proof" we have that they were LeT members is a statement by Indian police. Given the nature of the situation in Kashmir, that is a less-than-credible source.



We have already shared links to show that they are LeT members. There is not a single thing which says otherwise. Therefore no reason is found to descridit the news. Entire Indian media reported the incident. I have posted foreign links as well. But you seem to denying them without any logic.


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## Khajur

Developereo said:


> Wrong. A brave woman killed an attacker with an AK-47. Was he a LeT member, a common criminal, or an off-duty Indian soldier? She doesn't know. All we have is the media's and Indian police's rofl statements.



I think the debate should end here.

*As u've choosen to discredit the indian media and as usual find it more comfortable to live in surreal denial.*Then good for u buddy...its aint gonna make any differerence to the truth of the matter that a that teenage kashmiri gal killed a dreaded LeT terrorist with an axe . Period .

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## X11

Independence of Kashmir ? My foot.

Any struggle that is originated/supported/funded by outside influence will not succeed. 

The first war of Kashmir was in 1948..and its 61 years...and kashmir is still with India.

The true internal struggle, like that in East pakistan is called as freedom fight. And they got the freedom in less than 1 year after starting the struggle.

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## blueoval79

X11 said:


> Independence of Kashmir ? My foot.
> 
> Any struggle that is originated/supported/funded by outside influence will not succeed.
> 
> The first war of Kashmir was in 1948..and its 61 years...and kashmir is still with India.
> 
> The true internal struggle, like that in East pakistan is called as freedom fight. And they got the freedom in less than 1 year after starting the struggle.



Relax buddy......Pakistan tried in Punjab....started Khalistan Movement....Failed.... Their Mission Kashmir will also meet the same fate....

Just a matter of few years..... Kashmiris have started killing the terrorists...just like Punjabis killed them during Khalistan movement times......The same story will unfold....soon...just wait and watch......

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## vsdoc

You are absolutely correct blueoval, its only a matter of time now. My friends in the army used to tell me that the valley was one of the most dangerous postings (along with Assam) because of the terrain, the closely packed settlements of the villagers, narrow alleys, nooks, and crannies, and the fact that the jihadis used to hide out and take the help of the villagers for logistics, shelter, and information (mostly by threats or force as in this case, by holding family members hostage).But things have changed over the past few years. Now that the villagers are totally fed up, disillusioned by this so called "jihad" (every Kashmiri has realised how he or she has been used since the violence began in the 80s and the tourism went south), and long suffering at the hands of the jihadis, being caught between being forced to help them and swift reprisals from the forces if caught, they have finally had enough and like any cornered animal, are fighting back. One of my Pakistani brothers correctly said that those who have nothing to lose are often the most dangerous, as these jihadis found out to their mortal surprise. With the locals turning hostile, these jihadis will be hunted out of their burrows like so many rats, and exterminated like the vermin they are. They keep coming across the border to fight for "freedom" and as hospitable Indians over centuries, we give them exactly what they want, permanently.

Cheers, Doc

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## Developereo

ek_indian said:


> Again same old line but no proof.
> 
> Young Kashmiri Braveheart Kills Dreaded Terrorist Commander - Sri Lanka



Scroll to the bottom and you will see the source listed as "indianexpress". Once again, pro-India media parrots the Indian spin without independent verification. The Sri Lankan paper even underlined the word "Pakistani", which pretty much destroys their credibility and objectivity.



ek_indian said:


> We have already shared links to show that they are LeT members.



All you've shown are statements by Indian police. Hardly an objective or credible source in the matter. Do you honestly believe that a top LeT commander personally goes around abducting women? Doesn't he have minions to do small jobs like this?

Also, sexual crimes are not the LeT's speciality. Their human rights abuses center mainly around torturing/killing suspected informants and collaborators.



Khajur said:


> As u've choosen to discredit the indian media and as usual find it more comfortable to live in surreal denial.



I have shown a healthy skepticism about "news" from a region that is fraught with controversy and spin.



blueoval79 said:


> Relax buddy......Pakistan tried in Punjab....started Khalistan Movement



Khalistan was a Sikh secessionist movement which was effectively terminated when Benazir Bhutto dobbed in the movement's leaders to India.


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## dabong1

Peshwa said:


> Do I really need to get into this???
> 
> India lays claim to all of J&K....including Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and parts donated to China by Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistani's are entitled to their views....we to ours.....



The people of azad kashmir call it azad......the people held under occupation in indian occupied kashmir say that they are living under occuaption ,its only you indian that call it something else but the people of kashmir dont agree with you.

Indian occupied punjab?


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## blueoval79

Developereo said:


> Khalistan was a Sikh secessionist movement which was effectively terminated when Benazir Bhutto dobbed in the movement's leaders to India.





Whatever was done to finish the movement....but the truth is .....Pakistan Created Khalistani Terrorists.....backed them with money...and Weapons.....but when Pakistani Ruling class realized the game is over.....they handed over some terrorists to India as a token....This is still fresh in Mind of Punjabi population.... Thus there is no support for Pakistani Sponsored Terrorism in Punjab......anymore.....


Pakistan's Mission Kashmir...will have same fate..... These terrorists will be killed by Army....Civilians....and then they will run with their tail between their legs.......into their western Moms...and Dads....b@hind....

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## ek_indian

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Indian Punjab did not have a competing ideology, a competing state vying for the hearts and minds of its people, its people split in half and the international community, through the UNSC resolutions, endorsing the position that the territory is disputed and that the people need to exercise self-determination.



Kashmiri people send their reprentatives into Indian political structures so I can not accept that they are not so-called split _ideology_/momentum. As UN resultion is concerned, this is not compulsery. The prequisite should be settling Kashmiri pundits and sikhs back into J&K, removing all forces etc.

Kashmiri people has a right to vote every five years as rest of India does. And they are already exercising right to determination through vote.

Lastly, There are a very less percentage of separatist and that too is reducing day by day.

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## EjazR

_Apparently the girl belonged to the nomadic Kashmiri Gujjar tribe_

*Girl who killed terrorist to get Rs3.5 lakh - dnaindia.com*
Ishfaq ul Hassan / DNA
Srinagar: The Jammu and Kashmir (J&K) government may recommend a gallantry award for 21-year-old Rukhsana Kausar, who, along with her mother Rasheeda Begum, killed top Lashkar-e-Taiba militant Abu Osama at Upper Shahdra Sharief in Rajouri district on Sunday night.

Governor NN Vohra has sought a formal report from the director general of police. Based on it, he will recommend a gallantry award for the girl. The governor also intends to honour the brave girl at Raj Bhavan," an official spokesman said on Tuesday.
The mother-daughter showed exemplary courage when they took on two Lashkar militants who had begun beating up family head Noor Hussain after barging into their house.

The girl, who had never handled a gun before, overpowered one of the terrorists with a sibling's help, snatched his weapon and shot him dead.

Police said she first attacked the militant with an axe and later snatched his gun to kill him on the spot. Other family members, including her 18-year-old brother Aijaz Ahmed, caught hold of the other terrorist, snatched his gun as well and fired at him, forcing him to flee.

"I was hiding under the cot when the two militants barged into our house and started beating up my father and mother. I came out and hit one with an axe. Then I picked up his gun, which had fallen down because of the axe effect, and fired at him. One of terrorists died on the spot, while the other fled after suffering an injury," Rukhsana said.

Following the incident, police have rented a house and posted 15 men in the village.
"We are considering appointing a Hussain family member special police official (SPO).* This will be in addition to the Rs3.5 lakh which will be given to the family once it is established that the slain militant was Abu Osama.* We have also recommended to the deputy commissioner to give one of them a government job. We will also recommend a gallantry award," SSP Rajouri Shafaqat Watali said.

An SPO is a causal employee of the police department who gets Rs3,000 a month. *Mostly, village defence committee members and former militants are enrolled as SPOs, who play an important part in the fight against militancy in Jammu and Kashmir.*

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## ek_indian

Developereo said:


> Scroll to the bottom and you will see the source listed as "indianexpress". Once again, pro-India media parrots the Indian spin without independent verification. The Sri Lankan paper even underlined the word "Pakistani", which pretty much destroys their credibility and objectivity.
> 
> 
> 
> All you've shown are statements by Indian police. Hardly an objective or credible source in the matter. Do you honestly believe that a top LeT commander personally goes around abducting women? Doesn't he have minions to do small jobs like this?
> 
> Also, sexual crimes are not the LeT's speciality. Their human rights abuses center mainly around torturing/killing suspected informants and collaborators.



You seem to be in denial mode. What makes you think that all media agencies posted without their verification. This seems to be an attempt to counter a thing which actually can not be countered, atleast not yet.

Everything which goes against you is labelled as _pro-Indian_. So whatever I will give you, will not satisfy your query. I have already given you enough links. Rest it is your choice mate. Since you don't trust any Indian authority so whatever media I will give, you will deny that source is Indian. We are just going in a circle.

Regarding the sexual expertise of LeT, a terrorist is a terrorist. He can do any evil act. We can not explain what they will do. So we can not say what is the real motive. Some Indian media said they wanted to abduct the girl but none can see the evil reason. Also there are reports already that terrorists are seeking young girls to marry. So I guess this would help you.

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## kumar_V1.0

Developereo said:


> Also, sexual crimes are not the LeT's speciality. Their human rights abuses center mainly around torturing/killing suspected informants and collaborators.
> 
> 
> .



Some people know a lot about these pigs specialties.

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## Hulk

Developereo said:


> Also, sexual crimes are not the LeT's speciality. Their human rights abuses center mainly around torturing/killing suspected informants and collaborators.


Perception is such a big thing, if you are against anyone even best of evidence seems nothing. If you support someone (LeT) you can vouch for anything. I do not thing anyone can say with confidence xyz cannot rape anyone, we have seen lot of cases where fathers have raped daughters and what not and it is all over the world. Its human and I believe LeT also has human recruited. To add to it, most terrorist organization recruit, poor, illiterate and rough people, people with soft heart will never get recruited in terrorist organizations.

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## ek_indian

indianrabbit said:


> LeT also has human recruited.



I do not agree with you. Terrorists are not "humans".


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## Hulk

ek_indian said:


> I do not agree with you. Terrorists are not "humans".



I did not meant human in that sense. I also believe they are devils at the best with no heart, someone who can fire at a child, women etc cannot be Human.


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## civfanatic

There were reports in kashmiri newspapers about a gun man bieng killed by woman . The most usual response here in kashmir is that we really can't be sure what is the true identity of woman who claims killed the gunman .Most probably the guy might have been killed already by Indian army and then they used there agents to enact a propagandist drama . India usualy enacts such dramas from time to time and then allows planted journalists to milk the story . Indian agencies usualy buy off people to do there inteligence work and the peoplle seem to be so . They have been using diffrent ethnic , religous ,linguistic or cultrul minorties to do there dirty job ..


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## kumar_V1.0

civfanatic said:


> There were reports in kashmiri newspapers about a gun man bieng killed by woman . The most usual response here in kashmir is that we really can't be sure *what is the true identity of woman* who claims killed the gunman .Most probably the guy might have been killed already by Indian army and then they used there agents to enact a propagandist drama . India usualy enacts such dramas from time to time and then allows planted journalists to milk the story . Indian agencies usualy buy off people to do there inteligence work and the peoplle seem to be so . They have been using diffrent ethnic , religous ,linguistic or cultrul minorties to do there dirty job ..



So you doubt her identity?

Does she need a identity proof from you? *No*

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## Developereo

blueoval79 said:


> Whatever was done to finish the movement....but the truth is .....Pakistan Created Khalistani Terrorists.....backed them with money...and Weapons.....but when Pakistani Ruling class realized the game is over.....they handed over some terrorists to India as a token....This is still fresh in Mind of Punjabi population.... Thus there is no support for Pakistani Sponsored Terrorism in Punjab......anymore.....



Well, I don't expect to erase a lifetime of Indian media brainwashing in a couple of posts, but the fact is the Khalistan movement had a long history in the *Indian* Sikh community (remember Indira Gandhi?). BB handed over the top names to the Indian authorities which effectively terminated the movement.

India has a habit of blaming all their problems on Pakistan as a convenient scapegoat.



ek_indian said:


> You seem to be in denial mode. What makes you think that all media agencies posted without their verification.



Do you really, honestly believe that the BBC and the Sri Lankan newspapers went out to Kashmir to independently verify the story? Especially when they explicitly credit "indianexpress" with the story.

The news business doesn't work that way. Each newspaper doesn't independently go and verify every story around the world. They get their feed from established sources and publish the story that they are given.



ek_indian said:


> Regarding the sexual expertise of LeT, a terrorist is a terrorist. He can do any evil act. We can not explain what they will do. So we can not say what is the real motive. Some Indian media said they wanted to abduct the girl but none can see the evil reason. Also there are reports already that terrorists are seeking young girls to marry. So I guess this would help you.



Do you honestly believe that? Is there a shortage of girls in Pakistan that these supposedly Pakistan based terrorists are looking for wives in Kashmir? And the LeT commander himself goes out looking for his wife to abduct? Are you kidding me? If you read the story objectively without preconceived assumptions, the story sounds so fake, it's ridiculous.

Top LeT commander is roaming the houses of Kashmir looking for his future wife. Right!


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

i have heard there is some freedom fight going in baluchistan also is this indian instigated.....well to be frank......it is diplomacy..of guns for both the sides














*these thing in both kasmir and baluchistan should be stopped by both the states....*

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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

well let me be clear.....day dreamers on either sides...wil day dream....if there will be kasmir and there will be baluchistan...these are tactics.....generally applied....by state..to fuel tensions........understand the reality or the lives will be lost.....which is pity in south asian regions....no value at all...

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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

1000+ such statements available..what is actaully on ground...nothing...no result...


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

> OIC is holding no power in the World despite the fact that almost all of the Muslim nations are its members
> 
> nothing will happen, this is not America, that can invade Iraq or Afghanistan first and take the permission from the United Nations afterwards and can blackmail UN at their own will. This is OIC that is holding no power in real and only good for stats




bulls eye...


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

is it the entire kasmir...that is disputed....pakistani occupied and indian occupied.....both states forcefully occupied..kasmir....US or nato forces shall enter and make the entire kasmir pakistan and india kasmir free.......and make a US or NATO base.....good for US and EU...this will also lessen chances of war..btw the two


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## Xeric

Ok, so they have felt some shame at last.


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## Halaku Khan

*Gujjars demand gallantry award for Rukhsana*

Jammu: Gujjars in Jammu and Kashmir on Wednesday demanded the countrys highest gallantry award for their community girl who killed a top Lashkar-e-Taiba militant in Rajouri district recently.

She has done our community proud. We urge President Pratibha Patil, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Union Home Minister P. Chidambaram to honour the brave girl with the highest gallantry award of the country, Tribal Foundation Secretary Javaid Rahi told journalists here.

Rukhsana (22) killed the militant and injured another at Kalsian village, about 217 km from here on the night of September 27.

A letter signed by top Gujjar leaders was sent to Ms. Patil, Dr. Singh and Mr. Chidambaram, urging them to recognise this rarest, unmatched and extraordinary act of courage of a fearless young Gujjar girl, Dr. Rahi said. She deserved a national honour for this, he added.

Rukhsana, along with her sibling, overpowered a Lashkar terrorist, snatched his rifle and fired at him, killing him on the spot.
Police protection

Governor N.N. Vohra said on Tuesday that he wanted to recommend the girl for the gallantry award.

The State government has provided police protection to the young girl and her family and has rewarded her with Rs. 5,000.

The Gujjars also demanded that an exclusive Gujjar regiment be raised in the Army.  PTI


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## humblehobbes

For all the people who seem to find doubts in any scrap of good news about India, there is a saying in my mother tongue, which roughly translates as this 

"For the Jaundiced eye, every object in the World looks Yellow"

or One more 

"The dumb Cat thinks that the world goes dark when it closes its eyes"

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## Gabbar

Halaku Khan said:


> *Gujjars demand gallantry award for Rukhsana*
> 
> Jammu: Gujjars in Jammu and Kashmir on Wednesday demanded the countrys highest gallantry award for their community girl who killed a top Lashkar-e-Taiba militant in Rajouri district recently.
> 
> She has done our community proud. We urge President Pratibha Patil, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Union Home Minister P. Chidambaram to honour the brave girl with the highest gallantry award of the country, Tribal Foundation Secretary Javaid Rahi told journalists here.
> 
> Rukhsana (22) killed the militant and injured another at Kalsian village, about 217 km from here on the night of September 27.
> 
> A letter signed by top Gujjar leaders was sent to Ms. Patil, Dr. Singh and Mr. Chidambaram, urging them to recognise this rarest, unmatched and extraordinary act of courage of a fearless young Gujjar girl, Dr. Rahi said. She deserved a national honour for this, he added.
> 
> Rukhsana, along with her sibling, overpowered a Lashkar terrorist, snatched his rifle and fired at him, killing him on the spot.
> Police protection
> 
> Governor N.N. Vohra said on Tuesday that he wanted to recommend the girl for the gallantry award.
> 
> The State government has provided police protection to the young girl and her family and has rewarded her with Rs. 5,000.
> 
> *The Gujjars also demanded that an exclusive Gujjar regiment be raised in the Army.  PTI*




*Its against the law india now raise regiments on religous and cultural grounds. Advani tried with Gujrat regiment but he didnt know.*


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## ek_indian

Developereo said:


> Do you really, honestly believe that the BBC and the Sri Lankan newspapers went out to Kashmir to independently verify the story? Especially when they explicitly credit "indianexpress" with the story.
> 
> The news business doesn't work that way. Each newspaper doesn't independently go and verify every story around the world. They get their feed from established sources and publish the story that they are given.



This is absurd logic. You are suggesting that all media houses of the world can not be credible if they report about any foreign incident!! And yes, they have "established sources" but since you do not trust them it is useless to talk about them.

This is what I call perfect denial. No evidence on this planet can do the job of convincing you.



Developereo said:


> Do you honestly believe that? Is there a shortage of girls in Pakistan that these supposedly Pakistan based terrorists are looking for wives in Kashmir? And the LeT commander himself goes out looking for his wife to abduct? Are you kidding me? If you read the story objectively without preconceived assumptions, the story sounds so fake, it's ridiculous.
> 
> Top LeT commander is roaming the houses of Kashmir looking for his future wife. Right!



Since when LeTmembers are _formally_ accepted as Pakistani. Last time we checked, they are referred as "non-state actors".

And I have no expertise on LeT. They night have several reason behind that. One of them is making them suicide bombers or recruiting them as woman agent (one was killed recently). There could be several reason behind that. 

The basic point is, Kashmiris are fed up with them and now they are teaching them a good lesson.

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## Developereo

ek_indian said:


> No evidence on this planet can do the job of convincing you.



It all boils down to the statement by Indian police about the identity of the assailant. I don't believe the Indian police because they are not an objective, credible source.

It's much more likely that the LeT commander was tortured and killed by Indian authorities and they are using an unrelated home invasion incident to cover up the abuse and death of a prisoner in their custody.



ek_indian said:


> Since when LeTmembers are _formally_ accepted as Pakistani. Last time we checked, they are referred as "non-state actors".



They are "non-state" actors, not "stateless" actors.
"non-state" simply means they are ordinary citizens, not supported by the government.


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## blueoval79

Developereo said:


> It all boils down to the statement by Indian police about the identity of the assailant. I don't believe the Indian police because they are not an objective, credible source.
> 
> It's much more likely that the LeT commander was tortured and killed by Indian authorities and they are using an unrelated home invasion incident to cover up the abuse and death of a prisoner in their custody.



Yup...you should trust India media as much I trust Pakistani Media......simple.....

May be it was fake encounter...but the fact remains...a terrorist was killed.......and he news ids that he was killed by a girl.....so that must hurt LET's image in Kashmir....and people will start a fighting them every time LET Pigs barge into their houses. 




Developereo said:


> They are "non-state" actors, not "stateless" actors.
> "non-state" simply means they are ordinary citizens, not supported by the government.



So your non state actors are disowned by state .....I wonder your logic will hold good ...when you accuse India as a country .....over some riots and some stupid religious force.....

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## vsdoc

Developereo said:


> They are "non-state" actors, not "stateless" actors. "non-state" simply means they are ordinary citizens, not supported by the government.



Thank you for the crash course in pakistan-ese.

There are various forms of support my friend, that do not have to be direct help, funding, training, arming.

Looking the other way to whats happening right under your own nose on your own land by your own people, when you as a responsible nation should crack down on such people and their hostile and irresponsible activities, is also *support* my friend, and no country in the world can or will be allowed to get away with such a BS stand.

Its like letting out a loud smelly fart at a high brow cocktail party, and telling the shocked and disgusted people around that it was your arse-hole at fault.

Cheers, Doc

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## Y2A

Developereo said:


> Bro, please be careful and don't fall into the trap of bringing religion into all this.
> 
> Whoever these attackers were -- LeT, common criminals, Indian soldiers -- they deserved what they got. The family was brave and deserve 100&#37; respect.


I was just pointing towards a gentleman's act of using an Islamic term in generalizing manner which is obviously not acceptable, number 1.

number 2, let me put it this way, if they were freedom fighters then my opinion will be different, and its quite logical, one man's hero is other's demon.

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## Developereo

vsdoc said:


> Thank you for the crash course in pakistan-ese.



No, I believe it is england-ese; also known as English.

I was simply correcting the posters assertion that "non-state" actors means they are not Pakistani citizens.

The question of how much support they receive is a separate debate and should probably not derail this thread.


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## pakomar

Gabbar said:


> Some seperate factions do, but not all kashmiries.



this shows you are living in dream world wake up man


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## ek_indian

pakomar said:


> this shows you are living in dream world wake up man



News shows who has to wake up.
Also Kashmiri's vote percenatge adds to the spice.
Thank you.


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## civfanatic

kumar_V1.0 said:


> So you doubt her identity?
> 
> Does she need a identity proof from you? *No*



I'm only pointing out the obvoius and gosh she does not need an identity proof from me when whole of Indian media is giving her a concocted identity


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## civfanatic

> *Multi-dimensional truth: Just too many
> sides to Rajouri's bravery saga*
> 
> Truth has generally three sides, your side, my side and the
> ultimate truth, which lies in between the two! Yet in the militancy- infested
> state of J&K, this adage does not fit the bill anyway. Here the truth always
> has many sides and still that never comes out which one may call the ultimate
> truth. Reason, here the infamous trinity of Media, Army and Police (MAP) blurs
> the facts so deeply that the ultimate truth becomes an innocent casualty.
> So no wonder the famous story of Blind men and the elephant has been
> replicated in the case of Rajouri killing also, which has put a sleepy hamlet
> Thannamandi of the border district under constant media glare since Sunday. And it is this constant glare, which has given the story too many angles which may confound any sane person. Hence goes the journey to discover too many sides to one truth.
> KASHMIR TIMES: gave credit to the siblings Aijaz, 20 and Rukhsana, 22 for
> killing the terrorist in the story which appeared on Tuesday. The story was
> based on the inputs provided by SHO Thannamandi Mohammed Ashraf (quoted also).
> No identification of terrorist was given because there was no official
> confirmation on this account, neither by the police handout nor by army handout
> issued to the media on Monday. Number of terrorists was given three as mentioned
> by SHO Thannamandi. No reason was specified behind the incident.
> DAILY EXCELSIOR: Siblings were given the credit in the story based on inputs
> provided by the police sources. Reason behind the incident though was not
> specified yet there was a hint in the para.After questioning the two brothers,
> the militants ...started beating up Noor Ahmed , his wife Rashida Begum and
> Vakalat Hussain ..describing them as agents of security forces. In this story
> however Aijaz was elder, 20 year old and Rukhsana was younger, 17 year old.
> Identity of the slain militant was established as Osama - a dreaded Jaish
> commander, quoting SSP Rajouri Shafqat Watali.
> PIONEER: Here siblings were described as the protagonists quoting SHO
> Thannamandi Ashraf. No reason behind the incident was given and the identity of
> the militant too was not established. TRIBUNE: Siblings Rukhsana, 20 along with
> her brother Ajaz, 18 axed a militant to death. The number of terrorists was
> three. No reason was specified.
> Quoting locals, the story added: The girl killed one of the militants with an
> axe and injured the others, who later fled. The third militant, who was unarmed,
> carried his injured partner on his back and left the body behind. The father and
> uncle of Rukhsana also managed to snatch the AK rifles from the militants. (Not
> Rukhsana, Ajaz or their mother as most of the stories reported).
> Immediately after the incident, intercepts by the security forces revealed that
> the slain militant was named Osama and was a commander with theLeT outfit. We are investigating the matter. If what the locals are claiming is right, we will
> recommend the girl for a bravery award, said Deputy Inspector General (DIG) of police, Rajouri-Poonch range, SD Singh Jamwal.
> INTERESTINGLY THE DAILY NEXT DAY REPORTED: Fortyeight hours after the 20-year- old girl from Shahdra Sharief village in Rajouri axed a militant to death and forced two others to flee without their weapons late on Sunday night, the
> government is yet to announce an award for her because the identity of the
> militant could not be established. The police said it was still not established
> whether they were militants from across the border or not.
> The weapons, including AK 56 and AK 47, left behind strongly suggest that they
> were militants but it is yet to be established, said SSP. Shafqat Ali Watali,
> in contrast to news reports that have identified the one killed as Uzafa Shah, a
> Lashkar-e-Taiba area commander.
> INDIAN EXPRESS (THE HIMALAYAN MAIL): Here Kashmir girl axed to death an armed Lashkar-e-Taiba commander..along with her 18-year old rother..snatched guns and opened fire on two other militants. .The police identified the dead militant as Uzafa Shah, a Pak national, operating in Rajouri-Poonch for the last 4 years, only Laskhkar commander in the area who had survived.
> Rajouri SSP Shafqat Watali was quoted in the report. According to DIG SDS
> Jamwal, the family retaliated when the militants made an attempt to molest 20-
> year old. THE HINDU: A family put up resistance and killed a top-ranking
> Lashkar-e-Taiba militant who, along with two others, intruded into its house in
> Rajouri and attacked the occupants on Sunday night. The three militants knocked at the door of Noor Ahmad at Shahdara Sharief around 9.30 p.m., but the family, according to Senior Superintendent of Police Shafqat Ali Watali, did not open the door.
> However, Ahmads son Aijaz and daughter Rukhsana mustered courage and hit back with lathis and axes. At this, two militants fled, one of them injured, but the
> top ranking militant, identified as Abu Osama by the police, could not escape
> the familys wrath. He was first hit with axes and then fired upon with his own
> rifle.
> Watali said Abu Osama was a Pakistani national and had been operating in the
> area for the last 4 years. Here new angle was: Noor Ahmad told journalists in
> Rajouri that the militants were enquiring his daughter about a case of alleged
> rape by two local civilians. The case was two months-old and, according to the
> police, dismissed by court after the girl herself admitted that no one had raped
> her.
> Waqalat Hussain, who was injured when the intruders fired a few shots, said the
> gunmen were also enquiring about the character of Noors daughter and they
> repeatedly asked, Why did you first approach police and then withdraw the
> case?
> This angle was later worked out in detail by HIMALAYAN MAIL on Wednesday.
> HINDUSTAN TIMES: The newspaper reported, Rukhsana,18, shot the divisional
> commander of Lashkare- Taiba militant outfit at her house late on Sunday to save
> her honour and family. Rukhsana first hit the terrorist with an axe and after he
> hit the floor, she picked up his gum and shot him. She had no training in
> handling firearms. Osama is active in Rajouri-Poonch area for the past 10
> years.
> The report adds: The police is tightlipped over the motive of the militants for
> being there at that point of time but sources in the area said militants entered
> homes at late hours mostly with the intention of grabbing women for sex. When Noor (father of Rukhsana) opened the door to let Waqalat (uncle) in, two armed terrorists entered his room where Rukhsana was asleep. The terrorists first accused Noor of being a police informer and started beating his wife and him.. Ajaz hit him on the head with an axe before grabbing his rifle ...Rukhsana jumped out from under the bed, hit him with an axe, snatched his rifle and fired at him. Other two had fled at this point.
> Two months ago, two people had kidnapped Rukhsana. She was traced the same day, but there was no sign of the accused. SSP S Watali said it was unclear whether or not the terrorists had links with the kidnapping accused. ASIAN AGE: Here a village woman and her family killed a militant and injured and drove away the other in the frontier district of Rajouri late on Sunday night.
> Police officials in Srinagar said that the militants barged into the house of
> one Noor Hussein in Upper Kalsi Shadra Sharief, a remote village of Rajouri, and
> opened fire at the inmates injuring one of the family members Wakalat Hussein.
> The other family members, including a young woman Rashida Begum, overpowered the gunmen and snatched their AK assault rifles and then launched a counter-attack using an axe and lathis. One of the intruding militants was killed on the spot whereas his injured accomplice fled from the house. Later, the family handed the weapons over to the police.
> However, independent sources said that the militants group comprised three who wanted to stay at Noor Husseins house for the night. When the family refused to oblige them the gunmen started abusing and beating them. On this, one of the family members caught hold of an axe and other took up sticks to retaliate. On seeing two of his accomplice felling and the other in a pool of blood, the third gunman opened fire while fleeing injuring the houseowners brother Wakalat Hussein.
> TIMES OF INDIA: reported, A humble Muslim woman in a remote Jammu village slew a dreaded Lashkar terrorist single-handedly. Exhibiting astonishing, raw
> courage, Rashida Begum took on the two terrorists who had barged into her home late Sunday night in Thanna Mandi village in Rajouri district.
> The woman, in her early forties, grabbed an axe and swung it wildly, killing one
> of the armed terrorists and injuring the other.
> A Rajouri-based police officer said the two terrorists of Lashkar-e-Taiba, the
> Pakistan-based group that carried out the 26/11 Mumbai attacks, had entered Noor Ahmads home around 9 PM with the intention of holding the family hostage. Police said the two also wanted information on some local targets that Noor and his family members refused to provide. Angered by the resistance, the two began beating them up, threatening to eliminate the family, when Noors wife, Rashida, took them by surprise, pouncing on one of them from behind. She brought down an axe in powerful blows, killing the terrorist on the spot.
> She then charged at his partner who, nonplussed, was trying to gather his wits.
> Rashida and the rest of the family members soon overpowered him and snatched his weapon. However, the terrorist escaped under the cover of darkness, but not before receiving sharp cuts in the face-off with the furious housewife. Rajouris additional superintendent of police Shabir Ahmed said investigations were on to establish to identity of the duo but the slain terrorist was believed to be Osama, a Pakistan-based LeT commander, wanted in many cases of extortion and terror related activities.
> IRONY REFLECTS IN WHAT ITS ELECTRONIC CHANNEL (QUOTING AGENCIES) REPORTS SAME DAY. TIMES NOW: As the country bid farewell to goddess Durga, the demon-slayer, on Dashami and witnessed the evil king Ravana being vanquished on Dussehra, a humble Muslim woman in a remote Jammu village slew a dreaded Lashkar terrorist single-handedly.
> .. 21-year-old Rukhsana ... three terrorists barged..overpowered the men and
> even shot dead one. Courageous Rukhsana and her family overpowered three
> terrorists, as the 21-yr-old grabbed the terrorists gun, and shot him dead.
> Rukhsanas mother Rashida Begum said, My son managed to grab the terrorists gun after hitting him with an axe. Another terrorist tried to attack me but my
> daughter grabbed his gun.



Welcome to Kashmir Times

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## hembo

*Rukhsana's family afraid of retaliation, says can't go home *
Thu, Oct 1 05:48 AM

Three days after 20-year-old Rukhsana killed a militant, she and her younger brother Aijaz Ahmed left for Delhi under police protection on the invitation of a television news channel. Rukhsana's family, however, refused to go home in Upper Shahdra Sharief, about 30 km from Rajouri.

"Apprehending retaliation by militants, the family does not want to go home, especially until the standing maize crop in the area is harvested," said SSP, Rajouri, Shafqat Watali.

After Rukhsana axed to death a Lashkar commander and injured his accomplice, a police picket was set up at their house. Besides, three police and para military pickets already exist near their house. "Under the present situation, we have few options. Either the family agrees to stay in the village and we provide them round the clock protection, or we arrange for their stay at a place of their choice. However, Rukhsana's family is not interested in moving out of Rajouri district," said Watali.

Rukhsana's father Noor Hussain and uncle Waqalat Hussain were injured in the militant attack and are undergoing treatment at the government hospital in Rajouri.

While some of the family members are staying in a special room arranged by the police in the hospital, the others are putting up at Shahdra Sharief police post. During the day, they go to their houses under police protection to give fodder and water to their cattle and return to the police post before sunset.

"Our houses are located at an isolated place. Next time in case of militants strike, we may not be lucky," said Rukhsana's mother Rashida Begum, adding that para military personnel from a nearby picket reached there next morning. "After finding none of us at home, they reached the police post looking for the weapons snatched by us from the militants," she said.


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## Reddy

OIC is another talk show - nothing more


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## SSGPA1

A member of India's governing Congress party in Indian-administered Kashmir has condemned moves by China to issue separate visas for Kashmiri people.

He said the decision by China to issue hand-written visas on loose sheets of paper was "not acceptable". 

China has given no explanation for its move, but many in Srinagar say it is because Beijing sees Kashmir as disputed territory. 

The divided region is claimed in its entirety by both India and Pakistan. 

'Not valid'

So far only about 100 people have been affected by the new procedures. 

The move - introduced in May - follows recent reports in the Indian media that Chinese troops have made incursions into the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir in the Ladakh region. 

The new requirements may affect only a handful of students and businessmen who travel from Indian-administered Kashmir to China, but the diplomatic implications of the Chinese move could result in a serious deterioration of relations between Beijing and Delhi. 

One of those affected is Aejaz Hussain, a Srinagar businessman who regularly travels to China. 

When he last went two months ago he was issued with a hand-written Chinese visa on a loose sheet of paper stapled to his passport. But Indian immigration authorities told him it was not valid. He missed his flight as a result and complained to the Chinese embassy in Delhi. 

"They told me they were using the loose visa only for people from Kashmir. They said it was their government's decision," he said. 

Acting on the advice of embassy officials, he asked the immigration authorities at Delhi international airport to explain in writing why the visa was invalid. 

"I told them to arrest me if I had a fake visa." 

Eventually Indian officials allowed him to fly. 

"But I had to go through hell before they let me," Mr Hussain said. 

'Wrong'

Not everybody has been so fortunate. Shuja Altaf was prevented from travelling last month after being told by Indian immigration that Chinese "loose visas" were not being accepted. 

*"The officer told me that by issuing such visas, China was refusing to recognise Kashmir as part of India," Mr Altaf said. *

He said that he saw at least four students from Kashmir who were also prevented from boarding their flight. 

Now a prominent leader of India's governing Congress party from Kashmir, Saifuddin Soz, has spoken out over the issue. 

"It is wrong, it is not acceptable to us," he said. "Kashmir is an inseparable part of India and China cannot question that position." 

*However, a senior separatist leader and former chairman of the All Party Hurriyat conference, Molvi Abbas Ansari, said that China's decision reflects its recognition of Kashmir as disputed territory. *

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Row over China Kashmir visa move

This is a great move by the Chinese govt. to show support to the Kashmiri people and Chinese perspective on Kashmir.

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## pakomar

Gabbar said:


> Frustration spilling from you guys who cant accept and digest a news agains terrotists. Where is you sense of honor for the Kashmiries when they fight militents?



what india call militents in kashmir????
its all the freedom fighter that india called them militents.

now why a woman killed a freedom fighter.


wake up


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## pakomar

ek_indian said:


> News shows who has to wake up.
> Also Kashmiri's vote percenatge adds to the spice.
> Thank you.



now you sound like kashmirs support indias.


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## kumar_V1.0

pakomar said:


> what india call militents in kashmir????
> its all the freedom fighter that india called them militents.
> 
> now why a woman killed a freedom fighter.
> 
> 
> wake up



She did kill the man because *she didn't think he was freedom fighter*.

And that's what matters.

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## kumar_V1.0

pakomar said:


> now you sound like kashmirs support indias.



Tell you very interesting theory.

Fear is used to deter genuine voters from coming to polling booth and its been used for long back. 

But its impossible, and unheard, to create fear and bring millions of people to polling booth , never happens that way.

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## kumar_V1.0

Y2A said:


> further
> 
> 
> ohh no.. hell is just got frozen, you believe this, have a plebiscite in occupied valley according to the UN resolution and you'll have your ansawer, those "few" people are actually "quite a few" which will ultimately make you sad for the "few" you are talking about, your army is not on picnic in the valley (famous Mush's saying)
> 
> 
> 
> well i can only say kindly review the number of audience present in public demonstrations held by APHC over the years and people's response to their calls, don't be an ostrich, it hurts heads and eyes both.



You know how many voted in Kashmir to chose central government of India.

Again, Fear can keep people away from poll but not force them to come to vote. No not millions.


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## Reddy

Any one going against the writ of Indian govt. is a traitor and they need to be shot dead, if any one is not interested in staying in india, they are welcome to go out and settle in anyplace they like.

Kashmir is indian terrority and it cannot be changed by writing BS about the so called atrocities.


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## HAIDER

*NEW DELHI: India has lodged a formal protest with Beijing over a new practice of issuing special Chinese visas for residents of Indian-administered Kashmir, which is viewed by China as disputed territory.*

'We have conveyed our well-justified concern to the Chinese government,' India's foreign ministry spokesman Vishnu Prakash said Friday.

'It is our considered view and position that there should be no discrimination against visa applicants of Indian nationality on the grounds of domicile or ethnicity,' Prakash said.

For the past several months, Kashmiris applying to the Chinese embassy in New Delhi have received visas issued on loose sheets of paper and stapled - rather than stamped - into their passports.

The practice has resulted in some being prevented from boarding their flights by Indian immigration officials on the grounds that the visas are not valid.

'They said the stapled visa was not acceptable to India,' said Shuja Altaf, a Kashmiri businessman who tried to travel to the southern Chinese city of Guangzhou last month with a colleague.

'Both of us missed the flight,' Altaf told reporters in the Kashmiri summer capital Srinagar.

China has offered no explanation for the special visas, which some Indian officials view as an example of gratuitous trouble-making.

'From time to time, China indulges in mischief,' said Saifuddin Soz, a senior Kashmiri leader from India's ruling Congress party.

Kashmir has been the subject of a bitter territorial dispute between India and Pakistan for decades. The region is currently divided between the South Asian rivals by a Line of Control and has been the trigger for two full-scale wars.

China is also a party to the dispute in that it lays claim to a slice of Indian-administered Kashmir, while India says China is illegally holding part of its territory.

One Kashmiri student, who declined to be named, complained that the visa spat had prevented him taking up an admission place at Shanghai University.

'If China is issuing special visa to Kashmiris, it is not our fault. We are being made scapegoats in a diplomatic row between India and China,' he said.
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect...ld/03-india-protests-special-china-visas-ss-0


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## idune

Finally China is recognizing importance of political move in the geo political stage, which had largely been absent from Chinese doctrine.

This is good for Kashmiris and good for justice.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Is the implication behind not stamping the visa for Kashmiris on the Indian passport that Kashmir is disputed and not Indian territory?

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## HAIDER

Must be many motive behind that. And after 60 year China showed its reservation in open forum. Its not just visa but a message for India, that Kashmir dispute third partner is China. So it sound Kashmir dispute has four partners, Kashmiri,Pak,India and silent partner China.


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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Is the implication behind not stamping the visa for Kashmiris on the Indian passport that Kashmir is disputed and not Indian territory?



Apparently so. That raises a lot of questions.

Does one country's view make a whole lot of difference to change accepted international norms?

Does that not mean China is meddling in India's internal matter?

What are the immediate and long term geopolitical implications for such an act? Is it a short term diplomatic victory?

How would Pak Govt react given numerous previous instances where GoP almost always supported GoI in S. Asian matters?

Though internationalization of kashmir issue is GoP's agenda, would the Kashmiri Hurriyat and kashmiris - the real people in question here- welcome this move by China?

Does this set a precedent of issuing 'special' visas for people claiming domicile in disputed/restive/freedom demanding areas like say Golan Heights, or Basque or Tibet or Cyprus or Gibraltor or Balochinstan etc etc.? What if India and subsequently other countries start issuing 'special' visas for Tibetans - (think about Hollywood's pull on Obama's White House)?

How would the world member countries react?


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## Reddy

What were the chinese doing from indian independence until now.
Why the sudden change in visas being issued to kashmir domiciled citizens ?

India should pay them in the same coin and start issuing similar visas to tibetians


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## King Julien

hmmm... the new super power has taken things seriously .. maybe they want to settle the Kashmir dispute.....

we should return their gesture offering to resolve the question of Tibet's sovereignty


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## Developereo

HAIDER said:


> 'If China is issuing special visa to Kashmiris, it is not our fault. We are being made scapegoats in a diplomatic row between India and China,' he said.



Good point. Why take it out on the Kashmiris?

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## pakomar

kumar_V1.0 said:


> She did kill the man because *she didn't think he was freedom fighter*.
> 
> And that's what matters.



so you admit that kashmirs want freedom


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## pakomar

kumar_V1.0 said:


> Tell you very interesting theory.
> 
> Fear is used to deter genuine voters from coming to polling booth and its been used for long back.
> 
> But its impossible, and unheard, to create fear and bring millions of people to polling booth , never happens that way.



if you know kashmirs vote those leaders who will talk about kashmirs right in indian parliament to stop killing kashmirs Muslims...


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## vandemataram

UnitedPak said:


> Those people were not "freedom fighters". They were kidnappers and terrorists (clearly evident by the fact that they tried to kidnap and kill civilians). Get your labelling right next time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are the *freedom fighters*. I guess to you they look like LeT agents?



So who are freedom fighters. I cant miss the All Parties Hurriyat Conference banner in the middle, they were definitely violent and anti-human. we all know Yasin Malik of JKLF who was also a party to such atrocities, now that he has renounced terror.

Look if you are telling me people like Sajjad Lone, Yasin Malik and Mirwaiz Umar Farroq are the freedom fighters who are currently fighting the GoI for independence, you cant be further from the truth. 

The simple fact is these are all HuJI, Harket ul Mujahideen and Al Badr cadres and the Pakistani Government is trying to tell the world that these are freedom fighters ??

So you accept that LeT is a terrorist outfit? Since you wanbted to differentiate between these protestors and the LeT guys? 

Do all Pakistanis on this forum voice his opinion? Or is the GoP thinking on different terms?


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## vandemataram

Jana said:


> As usual the Orange Indian media at work.
> 
> Just look at the details of this news story.
> 
> A woman succeeded in killing a 'militant" with an axe .
> 
> The woman and her husband snatched the weapons from "Militants"
> 
> well the highly trained, highly equipped Indian army hardly kills these "highly trained militants" without suffering any casualties or injury. And look at this news an armless woman killed a militant lolzz
> 
> 
> It clearly shows the men were ordinary criminals NOT freedom fighters.
> 
> 
> When will Indians learn to behave like real men stop such cheap propaganda.



Ordinary criminals ? with AK - 47s and Hand Grenades, 

May I suggest madam (I gather it from this forum) that together let us start our educational journeys once more from............




Kindergarten..

Does not speak highly of your IQ


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## vandemataram

blueoval79 said:


> Excellent news........soon we will se a whole population standing against these terrorists....
> 
> God bless this brave women.....
> 
> 
> 
> wait ...did i hear ... indian propoganda......hmmmm



This girl is RAW agent with ther covert support of Mossad and arms and logistical support from CIA and KGB


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## vandemataram

Cheetah786 said:


> If u belive this i'll lease you Taj Mahal for a very good price



You may run like a Cheetah but sorry the Taj does not belong to the Ummah ...

needless to say you are not in (even in your wildest dreams) a position to lease the Taj to us 

INDIANS .....


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## vandemataram

kumar_V1.0 said:


> By the way did you do some kind of search / research before you started your yellow / orange rhetoric again.
> 
> Please be open otherwise whats point in having these discussions if we build a iron wall around our brains. Whats is so devastating in the news. If you have someone at you home trying to take you hostage will you not try and do something to save yourself.



Well I had heard and that is also which my education afforded me all these years is that the Orange color is copyrighted for the Dutch !!!!


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## vandemataram

duhastmish said:


> *dont stoop to such low level - for no reason and no person. i will never accept killing of even a single - paksitani in the name of relgion or jihad - by talebani or blochi or indian raw or any islamic religious organization. *
> 
> *i will never support talebani or bloch. its their own internal matter and if there is any problem going on in pakistan - the answer can not be lifting a gun.
> 
> the soultion can only be through peace.
> 
> i hope to see same - view from paksitanis . these so called jihadi on all the sides of paksitan .
> 
> kashmri , taleban , bloch are not fightign for relgion they are just following violence for their political gain. You can never get heard - with the guns - a peace ful march will give you respect . and a bulelt will only make a worth less piece of shyt terrorist. *



I am sorry but you are way off the mark ..your accepting or not accepting certain facts do not change the truth. 

Balochistan and Sindh are Pakistan's soft underbellies and there is no denying fact, and that has been because of their own misguided developmental programs over the six decades.

May I suggest your going through plenty of material freely avialable over the world wide web on Baloch and Balochis? 

It is nt a recent phenomenon ..it has been in vogue since the creating of Pakistan...over the last six decades. 

Please dont let me mistrust your sanity...please do not forget that the Kashmiri freedom struggle began only in 1988-1989 ...and that too as a direct result of Islamization of Pakistan and the military ...thanks to Gen Zia...

But ..Baloch unrest is in vogue since much longer....

And lastly I hope I am not dealing with someone from the UPA government of today with no "Clear" foreign policy and unable to take firms stands on vital strategic issues...

Jai Hind

And a solution which is peaceful ..you are talking unifying Ice and Fire....


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## kumar_V1.0

pakomar said:


> so you admit that kashmirs want freedom



Where did I say that?

I just said that the lady and public at large knows now that these are no freedom fighter , they are terrorists which abrupt there lives and cause violence in there region.

And you know one thing the fight for freedom is never outsourced , if some one comes from across the border and says he is freedom fighter for them, they will get this.


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## kumar_V1.0

pakomar said:


> if you know kashmirs vote those leaders who will talk about kashmirs right in indian parliament to stop killing kashmirs Muslims...



I will try to rephrase it for you.

Kashmiri Brothers sisters, Like any there state of India, vote in millions to choose a federal and state government for them so that they get a representative who looks after there needs under Indian constitution.


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## hembo

Back to topic bickering brothers:

*Rukhsana inspires, girls demand arms training *
Sat, Oct 3 10:40 AM

Rajouri, Oct. 2 -- Eighteen-year-old Rukhsana has become an icon of bravery for teenaged girls in this laid-back town that was once under the perennial fear of the terrorist's gun.

Some girls said they want to be trained to use guns to deal with terrorists the way Rukhsana did when three of them barged into her house on Sunday night. Their heroine, who had never used a gun before, hit a top Lashkar-e-Tayyeba terrorist with an axe and then shot him dead with his own AK-47 assault rifle after he and two others beat her parents up.

The two other terrorists fled from Rukhsana. "If she can do it, so can we.

Rukhsana has shown us the way. Now I feel girls should be given arms training so that we can take on terrorists ourselves," said 18-year-old Sonia Tabassum, a class 12 student at a government school in Rajouri district, 160 km northeast of Jammu.

Sonia, who hails from Rukhsana's village, travels 20 km to go to school. Said Shehnaz Bhatt, another class 12 student from the same school, "Rukhsana has proved that girls are second to none and can face any difficulty.

She has instilled a new courage in me. If she can handle a gun and shoot a terrorist dead without any training, imagine what we girls can do if we get formal arms training.

She is my hero and I will follow her." The girls' faces redden with anger when they're asked how they feel when terrorists, professing to be waging jihad or a holy war, kill people and rape young women.

"It's no jihad. Is killing human beings and raping women a jihad? They should be dealt with in the way Rukhsana treated them or they should be hanged publicly," said class 11 student Payal Khajuria.

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## hembo

*International Islamic body appoints Kashmir envoy*
Sat, Oct 3 11:25 AM

New York, Oct. 2 -- Pakistan has been able to get the Organisation of Islamic Countries (OIC) involved in the Kashmir dispute once again.

The OIC, a group of 57 predominantly Muslim countries, which promotes Muslim solidarity in political, social and economic matters, has appointed a Special Envoy on Kashmir, Abdullah bin Abdul Rahman, a Saudi Arabian official, who is expected to endorse Pakistan's viewpoint on Kashmir in international forums. The envoy may not even be allowed to visit Jammu and Kashmir if any such request is made, Indian diplomatic sources told Hindustan Times.

India may have refused to discuss Kashmir during External Affairs Minister SM Krishna's meeting with his Pakistani counterpart SM Qureshi last Sunday, when they met on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly meet. But there was no way it could prevent the issue from being brought into focus, what with Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, chairperson of Kashmir's separatist All Party Hurriyat Conference (APHC) addressing a 'contact group' of the OIC on Monday.

"We believe the OIC appointing a special envoy on Kashmir is a significant development," said the Mirwaiz. "We want Muslim countries to use their good offices to persuade India to work on Kashmir.

" The OIC contact group the Mirwaiz addressed included the foreign ministers of Pakistan, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Nigeria, as well as the Prime Minister of Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, Sardar Muhammad Yaqoob Khan. Earlier he had also met Pakistan Prime Minister Asif Zardari and Foreign Minister Qureshi separately.

Hindustan Times


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## idune

King Julien said:


> hmmm... the new super power has taken things seriously .. maybe they want to settle the Kashmir dispute.....
> 
> we should return their gesture offering to resolve the question of Tibet's sovereignty



India already tried by giving shelter and helping Dali Lama and his gang in india. But that move failed miserably.

Lets see what india can do about it other than words.


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## batmannow

HAIDER said:


> Must be many motive behind that. And after 60 year China showed its reservation in open forum. Its not just visa but a message for India, that Kashmir dispute third partner is China. So it sound Kashmir dispute has four partners, Kashmiri,Pak,India and silent partner China.



frist positive, signs after indian posting of its VERY...dangerous ! AIR ASSETS near to china! or what?


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## Omar1984

King Julien said:


> hmmm... the new super power has taken things seriously .. maybe they want to settle the Kashmir dispute.....
> 
> we should return their gesture offering to resolve the question of Tibet's sovereignty



The entire international community recognizes Kashmir as a disputed territory. Search Kashmir and you will read that is a DISPUTED territory between Pakistan and India.

Line of Control is not International borders.

Then search for Tibet, its recognized by the entire international community as part of China. On neutral maps, Tibet is not surrounded by dotted lines like Kashmir is usually. China's International borders covers Tibet unlike Kashmir where its only surrounded by Line of Control.


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## shchinese

india has been working hard to earn this and they deserve such strike back. we need to give a lesson to our lovely neighbor india and make it no mistake to this neo-nazi in Asia that we will not tolerant such a neo-nazi. 

just have a look what is going on recently.

1. india first lodged an application to the world development bank for funding to the development project in south tibet. we took the south tibet back after the 1962 war, the then PM of india wrote to China and asked a nurture zone to be implemented in the current south tibet region. as a friendly response, we agreed, withdraw all our troops.

what is going on now? india is claiming that area and sending more and more troops. 

2. india has been publishing those "we are going to be invaded by China in xx years" craps for months. what is the motivation behind? 

*I am happy to see the move by my government and I hope they can make it clear to india that the whole Kashmir must be part of Pakistan. india can choose to obey the rule, or we can make it to obey the rule. *

here is a photo took around 8 weeks ago in the Xining train station, the type-96 tanks are being transported the border to look after our indian friends. the type-96 is very similar to Pakistan's Al-Khalid.

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## shchinese

HAIDER said:


> Must be many motive behind that. And after 60 year China showed its reservation in open forum. Its not just visa but a message for India, that Kashmir dispute third partner is China. So it sound Kashmir dispute has four partners, Kashmiri,Pak,India and silent partner China.



this matter should be resolved by Kashmiri and Pak. 

China is there to make sure india gets nothing more than dream.

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## pakomar

kumar_V1.0 said:


> Where did I say that?
> 
> I just said that the lady and public at large knows now that these are no freedom fighter , they are terrorists which abrupt there lives and cause violence in there region.
> 
> And you know one thing the fight for freedom is never outsourced , if some one comes from across the border and says he is freedom fighter for them, they will get this.



try to understand that kashmirs do n t want to be with India. If the guy killed in kashmir is freedom fighter so called "terrorist" according to Indian then it dose make any sence.


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## vkurian

shchinese said:


> this matter should be resolved by Kashmiri and Pak.
> 
> China is there to make sure india gets nothing more than dream.



Dear SHCHINESE,

Why you kep on calling Indians neo nazis...it doesnt make a difference but just to understand your perspective.

I can understand your love for Pakistan but why are you so much anti India. You are worse than the Pakistani friends here as India and pakistanis have enough reason to go at each other. 

You have a problem with every thing we do ....I understand China has come a long way and we are no where close to that and Indian government has not made any public statement that we want to become a super power.Like any self respecting nationals Indians also express their views and some times go over board like all other nationals. In your comments their is hatered for everything Indian,so want to know why so from a Chinese perspective.

As a emerging world power you have the right full place in the list of nations and with this attitude I don't think you are ready for that. The attitude that you show now would have been OK 30 years back. Today you should be involved in a more mature role so that all asian nations look up to you with respect. 

Be it India or China no one should think they can rule the world alone.We are one billion strong and together we may be a good 40+ percent of the world . I can see only opportunity here but we were to live in a atmosphere of hate and mistrust it oportunity for others. You are a greying nation in 20 years 60% of your population will be above 60 and below 15. This is the advantage of staying together as a block so that we have our pluses and minuses balanced out.

A small Taiwan can creat so much of angst for you inspite of all your size and influence. In the new world order we can all create problems for our neibghours but in the process we are creating a bigger problems for ourselves as we have the western world looking over our shoulder to exploit any misunderstandings.

I feel there can be great cooperation between us not as a senior or junior partner but as two self respecting countries with long cultural and historical background.Please respond if you are a chinese ....ignore if you are one of those imposters.


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## shchinese

vkurian said:


> Dear SHCHINESE,
> 
> Why you kep on calling Indians neo nazis...it doesnt make a difference but just to understand your perspective.



I didn't read your long post. but I am more than happy to ask your above question.

1. india media is publishing "China is going to invade us in xx years" craps. as a Chinese, I have to ask what is the motivation. There is no such crap from our media, never. 

2. Kashmir belongs to Pakistan. One day if Pakistan choose to let Kashmiri to gain independence, that is up to all people of Pakistan. No matter what happens, Kashmir doesn't belong to india. 

3. Sure, india won the wars in the past and thus gained some control of Kashmir. that is called illegal occupation and thus invalid. because by applying the logic of "I can win the war and thus take your land", then our PLA can occupy Mumbai and make it our land. 

back to the topic of this thread, for some basic fact which you can not deny - Kashmir is currently a disputed area thus people living in some part of Kashmir currently under india's administration are not indian citizens, their indian passport is thus NOT recognized by the government of China. under such policy, we had this visa issue. the same policy also applies to the people of south tibet, their indian passport will never be recognized.


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## Evil Flare

China Never Accepted Kashmir as a Part of India

But India Accepted Tibet as a Part of China as Exchange for recognition of Sikkim By China ....

So Tibet cannot be brought in any Kashmir Issue


Kashmir is a Disputed Territory to a World ..so stop calling it a integral part of INDIA


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## rskmanju

Pakistan says it want's kashmir be independence
but what they done they occuping with their army
they dont care about kashmir's?
they care only *kashmir land.*


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## shchinese

Aamir Zia said:


> China Never Accepted Kashmir as a Part of India
> 
> But India Accepted Tibet as a Part of China as Exchange for recognition of Sikkim By China ....
> 
> So Tibet cannot be brought in any Kashmir Issue
> 
> 
> Kashmir is a Disputed Territory to a World ..so stop calling it a integral part of INDIA



and there are many separatists groups in india, they will be damn happy if the india administration is stupid enough to argue the status of tibet. we can air drop them some money when necessary, that is least worried resources for us. 

india simply can't support separatists in China while at the same time expect China to stay away from the separatists in india.


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## shchinese

rskmanju said:


> Pakistan says it want's kashmir be independence
> but what they done with *** they r occuping with their army
> they dont care about kashmir's?
> they care only *kashmir land.*



your army is currently illegally occupying south tibet and some part of Kashmir. 

Kashmir belongs to Pak, that is the bottom line.


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## rskmanju

shchinese said:


> your army is currently illegally occupying south tibet and some part of Kashmir.
> 
> Kashmir belongs to Pak, that is the bottom line.





You Occupied Illegally in Kashmir

what r u doing in kashmir?


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## Zee-Gen

y u think that we occupied Kashmir illegally?


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## Zee-Gen

War is a legal way to solve problems and we solved this issue by a legal means a little bit (through a war) and hope once again we have to do this in the future


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

There are two ways to settle a dispute . One is through Peacefull and mutually benificial give and take Diplomacy . The other is to engage in a never ending bloody WAR .
Now its up to the Indians to Decide . 
If the Kashmir Dispute is peacefully Resolved then the whole south asian reagion would make a giant leap forward towards progress ,stability and Development.

Just think of the Economic benifit which can surely pay off any loss . Relations could be strengthened which may result in boosting the trade . 

If you look the other way it would be huge benifit if the Kashmir issue is resolved .

And pls i request some of my forum members to try not to fuel destructive ideas of going to War with India. Practically No one can do this . So instead of chest beating wasting your minds upon point scoring please try to contribute towards the Logical , Peaceful and Diplomatic solutions for the Kashmir Dispute. Its Resolution is must if both Pakistan and India want to excel and Develop .


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## rajeev

qsaark said:


> Maybe not for Muslims, but definitely for Kashmiris. Why is that? The Two Nation Theory was the basis of the partition, was it not? If the theory was correct, why we decided to help the Kashmiris but left the Muslims of HyderAbad, Junagarh and Manavader on their own? What was so special about the Kashmiris? I tell you what was so special. Special was the region where they live. Special is the source of fresh water Kashmir has. If Kashmir was a desert, you think we were so eager to help them?
> 
> When we sent in our troops back in 1948, it was the Pakistan Army and the Lashkaris (the tribal folks) who fought tooth to nail not the Kashmiris (few exceptions were there). Similarly when Pakistan started a covert operation in the valley in 1965 (The Op. Gibraltar), most of our fine men were got arrested and/or killed by the Indian Army on the 'lead' of no one else but the same Kashmiris for whos liberation those men were sent in.



Thank God, after telling some many Pakistanis that there was Op. Gibraltar before 1965 war - most pakistainis I chatted in a different forum outright denied any thing like that and like always its India, West, Israel, made-up story making me believe that probably that was never taught in the history books of Pakistan.

It was that some people were denying the existence just prove that India was the aggressor in the 1965 war.


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## PakSher

Check this video. Yes Indian Army can kill its own citizens like Kashmiris and Naxalities or Ultras, but this will come to haunt them. Yes, hindus killed my granddad's brother in Dehli, but that even intensified my entire family's support for the Muslim League and creation of Pakistan. The same Pakistan I am standing here to challenge your thoughts.

Check out the video:










Kashmir will be freed, it will be one battle at a time.

Pakistan Zindabaad


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## X11

jehangirhaider said:


> So Freedom fighters are still struggling in occupied Kashmir.



When the freedom fight is self driven, it becomes a peoples movement and getting a freedom does not take too long. 

Eg - East Pakistan, they got freedom within just 1 year after starting the struggle. Now that's what my friend is called "Freedom Fight"

In Kashmir, it is externally influenced since 1948. 61 years later, still it is with India.

This is not freedom fight. It is externally supported/funded terrorism, which will die its natural death like the Khalistan movement.

In a freedom fight, the falled fighter is honoured. But in Islamic terrorism, the fallen fighters are not even claimed by their own. This we have seen from the bodies of pak regular soldiers being rottening and not being claimed by Pak army. 

Great armies honour their fallen soldiers.....Barbarians don't.


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## PakSher

Actually you are 1000 miles of track. The Muqti Bani Terrorists in East Pakistan were funded and trained by India for 17 years, so I am not sure where you pulling the 1 year from. 

Yes, 100% of Kashmir was inside India before the start of the 1948 War, but Pakistan captured 12% during the 1948 War after defeating and pushing back the Indian Retreating Army, that is called Azad Kashmir or India calls it ***. Yes, before the start of the 1965 war 88% of Kashmir was inside India, but at the end Pakistan added 4% more territory and India was left with 84%. Check out the map of Kashmir and leave the emotion out dear member. Actually I am half Kashmiri, because my mother side is from Kashmir. You can call me whatever you want, but Indian Army's terrorism will be defeated. Copy, paste and save it for future reference.


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## X11

PakSher said:


> Actually you are 1000 miles of track. The Muqti Bani Terrorists in East Pakistan were funded and trained by India for 17 years, so I am not sure where you pulling the 1 year from.
> 
> Yes, 100&#37; of Kashmir was inside India before the start of the 1948 War, but Pakistan captured 12% during the 1948 War after defeating and pushing back the Indian Retreating Army, that is called Azad Kashmir or India calls it ***. Yes, before the start of the 1965 war 88% of Kashmir was inside India, but at the end Pakistan added 4% more territory and India was left with 84%. Check out the map of Kashmir and leave the emotion out dear member. Actually I am half Kashmiri, because my mother side is from Kashmir. You can call me whatever you want, but Indian Army's terrorism will be defeated. *Copy, paste and save it for future* reference.



You have been dreaming for 61 years....wake up now!!!

Why the kashmiris did not support pakistan during the 4 wars ? 

But in east pakistan, the pakistan army commited genocide and they killed in millions....that is why people FOUGHT againt and DEFEATED the pakistani army.


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## PakSher

Actuallay my uncle served in East Pakistan and the Bengalis used to spit on the Army during patrols. It was the right decision of the Army to stop fighting and not die for people who spit on them. You totally skipped the 17 years of Indian terrorism and training of Muqti Bani. This is a mute conversation. Kashmir is an International Issue that will be settled with the UN, OIC, G8 and other forums.


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## X11

PakSher said:


> Actuallay my uncle served in East Pakistan and the *Bengalis used to spit on the Army during patrols*. It was the right decision of the Army to stop fighting and not die for people who spit on them. You totally skipped the 17 years of Indian terrorism and training of Muqti Bani. *This is a mute conversation. Kashmir is an International Issue that will be settled with the UN, OIC, G8 and other forums*.



The begnalis did it because of the genocide commited by Pak army. You can see many videos in youtube about the pakistani genocide.

No one else but India will settle it.

Pakistan cannot capture kashmir militarily. 

Most kashmiris are with the Indian system, its the pak funded separatists who make noise. 

Farooq Abdullah, Omar all are happy with Indian system. And given the worsening situation in Pakistan, most other kashmiris would never even think of being a pakistani.

Can you give me evidence about your 4% captured in 1965- theory ?

Neutral souce please!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

X11 said:


> The begnalis did it because of the genocide commited by Pak army. You can see many videos in youtube about the pakistani genocide.


Video's do not equate to proof of genocide, let alone the numbers of dead claimed by some. Do you even understand what genocide means?

So far there has been no impartial and exhaustive inquiry to establish the true number of people killed, but there are plenty of logical arguments against the figures of 'millions killed' which you can read in threads in the history section.


> No one else but India will settle it.


One then wishes India would implement her commitment to holding an impartial plebiscite that allows the Kashmiris to decide between India and Pakistan, especially since, as you claim, 'most Kashmiris are with the Indian system'.



> Pakistan cannot capture kashmir militarily.


Nor can you, and at the moment we are not trying to do so either.


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## Halaku Khan

*
President meets brave heart Ruksana*

STAFF WRITER 21:15 HRS IST

Rajouri (J&K), Oct 9 (PTI) For young Ruksana, who killed a militant to protect her family, the 15 minutes she spent with Pratibha Patil today were undoubtedly the most precious moments of her life. And she had a message for the President too -- girls should be given arms training.

Patil, on a visit to Jammu region, carved out time especially to meet the 22-year-old girl who elicited praise from across the country for her daredevil act. Ruksana had killed a top Pakistani militant and injured another at Kalsian village in Rajouri district on the night of September 27. She, along with her brother Aijaz Ahmed, had overpowered the terrorist, snatched his rifle and fired at him, killing him on the spot.

"It was a red letter day for me and my family, as the President was here to boost my morale and praise my act.

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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

indian girl......f***ed.....the militant.....gr8 job done

sons of satin....send directly to home sweet home..HELL...

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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

> try to understand that kashmirs do n t want to be with India. If the guy killed in kashmir is freedom fighter so called "terrorist" according to Indian then it dose make any sence.



hey its good that indian girl is not here......otherwise u wud be in trouble saying such a thing....


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## Developereo

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> hey its good that indian girl is not here......otherwise u wud be in trouble saying such a thing....



She is a brave woman.
Unlike some Indian loser who hides behind the French flag on the internet.


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## Omar1984

*Pakistan, India clash at UN over Kashmir​*
UNITED NATIONS - Representatives of Pakistan and India on Friday had a verbal duel over the decades-old Jammu and Kashmir dispute between the two South Asian countries in the UN General Assembly&#8217;s Fourth Committee, which deals with decolonisation questions.

Reacting to Indian delegate Manjeev Singh&#8217;s claim that Kashmir was an integral part of India, Pakistan Deputy Permanent Representative Amjad Hussain Sial said several UN resolutions had recognised the Himalayan state as a disputed territory.

&#8220;Jammu and Kashmir is not an integral part of India, nor has it ever been,&#8221; Sial added.

Singh, who was responding to Pakistan&#8217;s main statement to the committee in which he drew the international community&#8217;s attention to the unresolved Kashmir dispute, maintained that Pakistan had gone back to &#8220;the language of the past&#8221; and said the need of the hour was to dismantle the terror infrastructure.

In his reply, the Pakistan representative said the denial of self-determination to the people of Jammu and Kashmir and 62 years of their suppression were most relevant to the decolonisation discussion.

He pointed out to several Security Council and United Nations resolutions, which stated that the territory&#8217;s future would be determined by a UN-supervised plebiscite.

Those binding resolutions, which were accepted by both India and Pakistan, remained to be implemented, he said.

Although Jammu and Kashmir was an international issue, Sial said it had been agreed to address the issue bilaterally through the composite dialogue. 

Pakistan, he said, had advanced several ideas to resolve it, and was awaiting progress towards a resolution. &#8220;Pakistan reserves the right to refer to the issue at the UN as necessary.&#8221;

As regard the Indian delegate&#8217;s comment on terrorism, Sial reminded him that Pakistan was the leading country in fighting the menace.

In his earlier statement, he said Pakistan was committed to finding a peaceful resolution of the Kashmir dispute acceptable to all sides - India, Pakistan and above all Kashmiri people.

&#8220;A peaceful resolution of this dispute is imperative for durable peace, stability and progress in South Asia,&#8221; the Pakistani representative said. &#8220;The UN&#8217;s decolonisation agenda would be incomplete without resolution of the Jammu and Kashmir dispute.&#8221;

In the Middle East, Sial said the continued denial of the right to self-determination of the Palestinian people was the core underlying cause of conflict and the primary impediment to comprehensive peace in the region.

Pakistan, he said, continued to support the just struggle of the Palestinian people for peace and freedom.

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## Reddy

Its kind of routine - GOP states from her point of view and India does the same and things are back to square one.


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## dabong1

Reddy said:


> Its kind of routine - GOP states from her point of view and India does the same and things are back to square one.



We where back to square one a couple of years ago.......so we might as well bring it up in the UN and make an issue of it again after giving ample time to india to move on the issue but this time we link it to the larger issue of stability in afghnistan with pakistan only able to do anything concrete was the kashmir issue is solved.


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## Reddy

Do you think anything will change on the ground if GOP raises kashmir issue in UN / IOC - they are just talk shows nothing much.


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## dabong1

Reddy said:


> Do you think anything will change on the ground if GOP raises kashmir issue in UN / IOC - they are just talk shows nothing much.



The you have nothing to worry about then do you?


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## Reddy

dabong1 said:


> The you have nothing to worry about then do you?



Ofcourse we are not worried from last 50 Years


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## dabong1

Reddy said:


> Ofcourse we are not worried from last 50 Years



Then why start geting jittery over pakistan bringing it up in the UN?


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## Iggy

dabong1 said:


> The people of azad kashmir call it azad......the people held under occupation in indian occupied kashmir say that they are living under occuaption ,its only you indian that call it something else but the people of kashmir dont agree with you.
> 
> Indian occupied punjab?



Tell me one thing some saying Kashmir wanted to be a part of Pakisthan and some saying Kashmir wanted to be a independent country..which one is true??what is the Stand of Pakisthan in this..I remember during the world cup in England some guys waving Independent Kashmirs flag.So can any one please enlighte me in this ??


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## dabong1

seiko said:


> Tell me one thing some saying Kashmir wanted to be a part of Pakisthan and some saying Kashmir wanted to be a independent country..which one is true??what is the Stand of Pakisthan in this..I remember during the world cup in England some guys waving Independent Kashmirs flag.So can any one please enlighte me in this ??



India wants kashmir to be part of india and the pakistani want the kashmiris to have a vote and let them decide want they want...india-pakistan or independence.
Most pakistanis i presume like indians would want kashmir to join them but its not the indians and pakistani want that counts its what the kashmirs want that is important.......let the kashmiris choose what they want and end see the end of pak-india hostilities.

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## bones20

the launch of RISAT2 on march 20 2009 and the increase in foiled infiltration seem to coincide.


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## Halaku Khan

*Kashmiri demonstrators urge Pakistan to leave Kashmir*
2009-10-12 10:30:00

Kashmiri nationalist parties who demand unification and independence of Jammu and Kashmir held a picketing outside Pakistani High Commission in London.

Despite the wet weather a large number of Kashmiris gathered outside the High Commission and shouted pro Kashmir slogans; and demanded that Pakistan must not annex Gilgit Baltistan as it will lead to serious problems for Pakistan.

People of Jammu and Kashmir hitherto have been keen in speaking against Indian role in Jammu and Kashmir and having demonstrations against India, but it looks tide has turned.

People of Jammu and Kashmir have seen true intentions of Pakistan and feel no hesitation in standing outside High Commission of Pakistan and shout 'Pakistani forces out of Kashmir'. 'Pakistan ka jo yaar hai - ghadaar hai ghadaar hai, Ilaaq ka jo yaar hai Ghadaar hai, meaning who so ever is friend of Pakistan is a traitor....who so ever is for accession is a traitor.

Demonstrators also shouted against India and demanded that India should also leave Kashmir; and that Jammu and Kashmir should become an independent country. It was a big demonstration if we compare it with demonstrations of Kashmiri and Pakistani held in London over the past years; and people travelled from various towns to express their anger and disapproval of what Pakistan was doing in Gilgit and Baltistan and 'Pakistani Occupied Kashmir'.

It was interesting to note that some pro Pakistan Kashmiris were also present to show their support for this picketing, and for the first time they spoke out against Pakistani policies with regard to Kashmir. They said they were deeply disappointed with policies of Pakistan; and wanted to show their anger and frustration.

Demonstrators shouted Zardari jee ye Kashmiriyoun ke saath Ghadaari hai, meaning what you are doing is treason to Kashmiris. They also said Geelani jee hamain ye ghulami qabool nei.... Bacha bacha kat maray ga Kashmir sooba nei baney ga, meaning Prime Minister Gilani we reject this slavery - reference to a new package on Gilgit and Baltistan. They said every Kashmiri child will die but Kashmir won't become a province of Pakistan.

Demonstrators got really angry when Pakistani High Commission even refused to accept a petition from respected Kashmiri leaders representing various political parties. 'This is like rubbing salt in our wounds', said Dr Shabir Choudhry, Spokesman of Kashmir National Party.

He said, 'We used our democratic right and like civilised people did not use foul language against Pakistan or threw stones or tomatoes at the High Commission. We were here to express our disappointment and anger; and least we expected was that someone from the High Commission come out and receive our petition and pass it on to President Zardari and Prime Minister Gilani that they also know what our concerns were'.

Abbas Butt, Chair of KNP said, 'The attitude of the Pakistani officials was very annoying and this was a slap on our faces. It was a common decency that they should come out and meet the Kashmiri leaders. It is their arrogance and wrong policies which is turning Kashmiris against them. Today even pro Pakistan Kashmirirs have come out to protest against their policies in this cold weather'. He said, 'Pakistani officials treat Kashmiris as slaves of medieval times who do not deserve basic humane rights, but they are wrong we will fight back and get our rights'.

JKNLF President Mahmood Kashmiri expressed his deep anger on attitude of Pakistani High Commission officials. He said, 'They should have enough decency to come out and meet us. They have shown that they are worse than Indian officials. At least Indian officials respectfully take petition from us when we hold demonstrations outside the Indian High Commission'. He said, 'Our struggle is against wrong policies of Pakistan and not against the State of Pakistan, but you can see after refusing to accept petition some Kashmiris have shouted slogans against Pakistan. This is no way to win minds and hearts of people', he added.

When the delegation that went to hand - in the petition came back and explained what had happened, some Kashmiris in frustration and anger shouted anti Pakistan slogans. Leaders acted quickly and requested them not say anything against state of Pakistan, however still some shouted, 'Kashmiriyoun ka barra qatil Pakistan and chhotta qatil Hindustan'- meaning, 'Pakistan is a big murderer of Kashmiris and India is a small murder'. Also they said, 'Kashmiriyoun ki Azad ke do shaitan eik India doosra Pakistan'- meaning 'Two Satans are against Kashmir's independence one is India the other is Pakistan'.

Tahir Bostan, President of JKPNP also expressed his anger against the attitude and arrogance of the Pakistani officials. He said, 'This attitude is insulting. This shows what respect Pakistani officials have for Kashmiri leaders'. He said, 'Our struggle against wrong policies of Pakistan will continue, and we will start a campaign against Pakistan, and will hold a series of demonstrations outside different Pakistani missions'.

The Jammu Kashmir National Liberation Front, Jammu and Kashmir National Awami Party, Kashmir Freedom Movement, Jammu Kashmir Plebiscite Front, Kashmir Liberation Organisation, Association of British Kashmiris, Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (Y),Jammu Kashmir Peoples National Party and the Kashmir National Party were among the parties that were present at the demonstration. (ANI)

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## arihant

I dont think Pakistanis will accept it just for sake of their behaviour.


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## dabong1

*'Our struggle is against wrong policies of Pakistan and not against the State of Pakistan*


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## Khajur

dabong1 said:


> *'Our struggle is against wrong policies of Pakistan and not against the State of Pakistan*





JKNLF President Mahmood Kashmiri expressed his deep anger on attitude of Pakistani High Commission officials. He said, 'They should have enough decency to come out and meet us. They have shown that they are worse than Indian officials. *At least Indian officials respectfully take petition from us when we hold demonstrations outside the Indian High Commission'*. He said, 'Our struggle is against wrong policies of Pakistan and not against the State of Pakistan, *but you can see after refusing to accept petition some Kashmiris have shouted slogans against Pakistan. This is no way to win minds and hearts of people'*, he added.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Gilgit and Baltistan is not being merged into Pakistan, just like Azad Kashmir is not.

G-B has merely been extended more self-rule, which has largely been welcomed by the people of G-B, though the self-rule is not necessarily complete autonomy.

Finally, while the sentiments of Kashmiris are commendable, the UNSC resolutions do not offer a provision for independence, and Pakistan's official position has always been one based on the UNSC resolutions.

Kashmiri Independence (or rather autonomy with making the LoC irrelevant) is a possible option to resolve the dispute.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Peshwa said:


> Can you please share some articles on the development being carried out in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir??


Search through the forum please, there are plenty, like this one:
http://www.dawn.com/2009/02/23/ebr1.htm


> I recently read about the unhapiness in Kashmiri's on the recent Gilgit-Baltistan proposal for governance......So why are the people in *** unhappy even with all the developments and foreign investment??



The unhappiness stems from the impression that G-B is a part of a united kashmir, and that the self-government proposals somehow divide Kashmir and seek to annex it into Pakistan (which we cannot, as the GoP has clearly stated, since G-B falls under the UNSC resolutions), not from a 'lack of development and investment'.

Please read things in their proper context.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

ek_indian said:


> Kashmiri people send their reprentatives into Indian political structures so I can not accept that they are not so-called split _ideology_/momentum.



The people of Quebec also participated in the Canadian legislature and Canadian way of life, the people and leaders of South Asia participated in the British run government and institutions while struggling for freedom - so what's your point?


> As UN resultion is concerned, this is not compulsery.


The UN resolutions remain the only neutral and consensus decision on resolving the dispute of Kashmir. The UNSC resolutions were accepted and committed to by all UNSC members, India and Pakistan, and the ruling of plebiscite is in sync with the rules of partition, under which any disputed accession was to be decided via plebiscite.

And in any case, if as you say the separatists are so few in number, India has nothing to fear from such a plebiscite.


> The prequisite should be settling Kashmiri pundits and sikhs back into J&K, removing all forces etc.


There are also over 2 million Kashmiris, primarily from Pakistan's side, settled in Europe, primarily Britain. I assume they will be given a vote in such a plebiscite as well.



> Kashmiri people has a right to vote every five years as rest of India does. And they are already exercising right to determination through vote.


That is not self-determination, and elections under India do not substitute for the plebiscite mandated by the rules of partition and UNSC resolutions - if that were the case then the UNSC resolutions would have stated that.

In any case, elections under Indian rule and occupation cannot be taken as acceptance of India just as elections in British India under British rule could not be taken as acceptance of British rule and occupation.


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## trickey

vsdoc said:


> Its only a matter of time when Kashmiris on the other side of the LOC start wanting the same.
> 
> Its only human.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Well, yes. Somehow, the simple things like job secuirty, religious freedom, equal opportunity, representative governance all seem to be swept under the carpet, when the ideologues butt in.
Even in this thread, folks are holding on to the belief of the presence of an abstract shared ideology, which will override all self-interest. 
You only need to look at the latest J&K elections which was not about any friggin' ideology. Everyone was talking about bijli, sadak. That was the fig leaf argument made by the separatists themselves, not realizing that it was self-defeating.


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## trickey

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The people of Quebec also participated in the Canadian legislature and Canadian way of life, the people and leaders of South Asia participated in the British run government and institutions while struggling for freedom - so what's your point?
> 
> The UN resolutions remain the only neutral and consensus decision on resolving the dispute of Kashmir. The UNSC resolutions were accepted and committed to by all UNSC members, India and Pakistan, and the ruling of plebiscite is in sync with the rules of partition, under which any disputed accession was to be decided via plebiscite.
> 
> And in any case, if as you say the separatists are so few in number, India has nothing to fear from such a plebiscite.
> 
> There are also over 2 million Kashmiris, primarily from Pakistan's side, settled in Europe, primarily Britain. I assume they will be given a vote in such a plebiscite as well.
> 
> 
> That is not self-determination, and elections under India do not substitute for the plebiscite mandated by the rules of partition and UNSC resolutions - if that were the case then the UNSC resolutions would have stated that.
> 
> In any case, elections under Indian rule and occupation cannot be taken as acceptance of India just as elections in British India under British rule could not be taken as acceptance of British rule and occupation.




The UN resolution is the UNs leverage( that's to be used during nuclear tests, human rights abuses, trade wars etc.), not Pakistan's. Needless to say, Pakistan has no leverage over the UN. I.e. Pakistan has no leverage over India via the UN route. UN's resolutions have been diluted due to father time,lack of will and Pakistan's "moral and principled stand". 
About the later, it has only served to keep international pressure off India's back. Nobody wants to appear to be supporting jihadis, even assuming that it was all a cunning Hindu fabrication.

About Pakistan's direct leverage over India, well, that has been unwisely expended. What India did not give up to 4 wars and terrorism, it is not about to give up to some negotiations,resolutions or transit barriers. IPI is also not going to materialize due to leverage mathematics. Nuclear blackmail would be about the best leverage Pakistan has at the moment.


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## trickey

bones20 said:


> the launch of RISAT2 on march 20 2009 and the increase in foiled infiltration seem to coincide.



Pakistan's pre-occupation in it's West also seems to coincide.


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## vsdoc

AM we ALL know what such "Independence" would actually mean, and how long it would last. So beyond the "jee hazoor, present sir, two bags full sir" customary parroting of the "official" line, I don't see what other purpose it would serve.

Whats better is that the people in the eye of the storm, the Kashmiris, know it too and are waking up from their religiously brainwashed slumber and speaking up.

All good things wouldn't you agree ...... especially since you (and all of us) want what's best for the Kashmiri man (and woman)?

Cheers, Doc


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## Screaming Skull

*India asks China to stay out of Azad Kashmir​*
Oct 14, 2009

A day after India and China sparred aggressively over the ownership status of Arunachal Pradesh, *India said that China must cease activities in Pak-Occupied Kashmir.*

In a response to a question on Pakistan- China projects in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (***), the official spokesperson of the government said: *&#8220;We have seen the Xinhua report quoting the President of China as stating that China will continue to engage in projects with Pakistan inside Pakistan Occupied Kashmir."

"Pakistan has been in illegal occupation of parts of the Indian State of Jammu & Kashmir since 1947. The Chinese side is fully aware of India's position and our concerns about Chinese activities in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir."

"We hope that the Chinese side will take a long term view of the India-China relations, and cease such activities in areas illegally occupied by Pakistan.&#8221;*

The Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) on Tuesday reiterated that the State of Arunachal Pradesh is an integral and inalienable part of India. 

The statement issued by a spokesman of the ministry shortly after China expressed "strong" dissastisfaction over Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's recent visit to Arunachal Pradesh for electioneering.

*"The State of Arunachal Pradesh is an integral and inalienable part of India. The people of Arunachal Pradesh are citizens of India. They are proud participants in the mainstream of India's vibrant democracy. The Chinese side is well aware of this position of the Government of India,"* said the official spokesperson.

*"It is well established practice in our democratic system that our leaders visit States where elections to Parliament and to the State Assemblies are taking place. The Government of India is deeply committed to ensuring the welfare of its own citizens across the length and breadth of our country,"* the official spokesperson added.

Expressing disappointment over the statement made by the official spokesman of the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the official spokesperson said: *"India and China have jointly agreed that the outstanding boundary question will be discussed by the special representatives appointed by the two Governments. We, therefore, express our disappointment and concern over the statement made by the official spokesman of the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs, since this does not help the process of ongoing negotiations between the two Governments on the boundary question."

"India is committed to resolving outstanding differences with China in a fair, reasonable and mutually acceptable manner, while ensuring that such differences are not allowed to affect the positive development of bilateral relations. We hope that the Chinese side will similarly abide by this understanding,"* the official spokesperson added.

On the same day, China's Ambassador to India Zhang Yang met officials of the Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) shortly after his government expressed &#8216;strong&#8217; dissastisfaction over Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's visit to Arunachal Pradesh during electioneering.

Earlier, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Ma Zhaoxu had said: "We demand the Indian side address China's serious concerns and not trigger disturbance in the disputed region so as to facilitate the healthy development of China-India relations."

"China is strongly dissatisfied with the visit to the disputed region by the Indian leader disregarding China's serious concerns," Mas added in a statement posted on the ministry's website.

He noted that China and India had "never officially settled" demarcation of their border, and China's stance on the eastern section of the China-India border was "consistent and clear-cut".

The Indian Government has all along indicated that Arunachal Pradesh is an integral part of India and that the people of that state have a democratic right to elect a government of their choice.

Singh had toured and addressed an election rally in Arunachal Pradesh on October 3.

Recently, China had blocked a part of a loan to India from the Asian Development Bank (ADB) for developmental projects in Arunachal Pradesh. China also protested a visit to the state last month by exiled Tibetan leader the Dalai Lama.

India says China is illegally occupying 43,180 sq kms of Jammu and Kashmir. On the other hand, China accuses India of possessing some 90,000 sq km of Chinese territory, mostly in Arunachal Pradesh.

Singh had earlier visited Arunachal Pradesh on January 31 and February 1 and had then referred to it as "Our land of the rising sun" at a public rally, which was objected to by China.

China apparently saw it as India's assertion of its claim on Arunachal, which it claims is a "disputed territory".

India asks China to stay out of ***


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## Screaming Skull

*Stay clear of Azad Kashmir: India tells China​*
14 Oct 2009, 

After number of statements from China on Arunachal Pradesh, the Indian government on Wednesday (October 14) finally hit lashed out. Hitting back at China, *India took objection to its engagement in projects in Pakistan occupied Kashmir (***) and asked it to cease such activities taking "long-term view" of India-China relations.*

A day after China objected to the visit of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to Arunachal Pradesh, External Affairs Ministry took a strong view of President Hu Jintao's remarks that China will continue to engage in projects with Pakistan inside Pakistan occupied Kashmir.

*"Pakistan has been in illegal occupation of parts of the Indian state of Jammu & Kashmir since 1947. The Chinese side is fully aware of India's position and our concerns about Chinese activities in Pakistan occupied Kashmir,"* External Affairs Ministry spokesman Vishnu Prakash said in a statement.

*"We hope that the Chinese side will take a long term view of the India-China relations and cease such activities in areas illegally occupied by Pakistan,"* he said.

The Chinese President, during a meeting with Pakistan Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani yesterday, outlined a major project to upgrade the Karakoram highway connecting the two countries overland and Chinese help in the Neelam-Jhelum hydroelectric project in ***.

"Howsoever, the international situation may change. The people of China and Pakistan are always joined in hearts and hands," Hu had said.

Meanwhile, Defence strategist Maroof Raza said that *there is an established agreement between India and China that neither party will claim territory, where there is settled population.*

Slamming China's objection over Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's recent visit to Arunachal Pradesh, he added that the PM has every right to visit the state because he is visiting a place within the Indian territory. "China will keep pushing their luck, till India stands up. The big question remains is Will India stand up?"

Stay clear of our ***: India tells China- TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos

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## Nemesis

We should also add that the PRC recognize Tibet's right to be independent.

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## xukxuk

thanks to let us know
we will think about it


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## Patriot

China's Response=  .The projects are already inked with China.Besides, WHAT can India do if China does not stop?

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## WarProfessor

Patriot said:


> China's Response=  .The projects are already inked with China.Besides, WHAT can India do if China does not stop?



Well I don't know. I just took a look at my Chinese dictionary, it says in Chinese, "we will think about it" means no. And no miraculously means no in Chinese too. I think India will get alarmed.

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## arihant

Some more threads, where Kashmiri demonstrates against Pakistan's occupation.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...s-urge-pakistan-leave-kashmir.html#post514417

This kashmiri must be in fear that if Pakistan didn't made Azad Kashmir really azad, then there land will be in the hands of Taliban.

---------- Post added at 02:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 PM ----------




Developereo said:


> She is a brave woman.
> Unlike some Indian loser who hides behind the French flag on the internet.



Anything, Anti-pakistani is Indian.  

Think, time will tell you.


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## jarnee

Nothing ..only stop trade and Chinese missions and companies in India, Dont forget, China exports to India are huge!!! and tilted more towards Chinese side.


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## grey boy 2

India asks China to stay out P-o-K ?

Sure, you can ask whatever you want,

Do you think China will give a damn what you ask for ? 

But i do give GOI credit to give out such a brave speech though !

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## Spring Onion

jarnee said:


> Nothing ..only stop trade and Chinese missions and companies in India, Dont forget, China exports to India are huge!!! and tilted more towards Chinese side.



 when are you doing that if at all you have guts to do that


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## Spring Onion

Po.K  there is no Po.K

Only country that is occupying Kashmir illegaly is India. Its Indian Occupied Kashmir IoK.

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## Ruag

Jana said:


> Only country that is occupying Kashmir illegaly is India.



Yes... and the Moon is not a natural satellite of Earth but a giant earth observation satellite built by ancient Martians who are now extinct.

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## Spring Onion

Ruag said:


> Yes... and the Moon is not a natural satellite of Earth but a giant earth observation satellite built by ancient Martians who are now extinct.



When was the last time Kashmir was part of India??????????????


get over your Orange media and your orange minded politicians who always do poom poom poo

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## wangrong

*2007/04&#8212;&#8212;2008/03 India-China trade nears $37.8 billion *


*China&#8217;s exports to India *

1&#12289;electrical machinery and equipment&#65288;$7.6 billion )
2&#12289;Non-electric machinery and equipment&#65288;$3.2billion &#65289;
3&#12289;Steel and iron &#65288;$1.9billion &#65289;
4&#12289;Organic chemical industry &#65288;$1.7billion &#65289;
5&#12289;Coal, coke class &#65288;$1.2billion &#65289;

*India&#8217;s exports to China *

1&#12289;Iron ore &#65288;$5.3billion &#65289;
2&#12289;Cotton &#65288;$1billion &#65289;
3&#12289;Other minerals &#65288;$1billion &#65289;
4&#12289;Non-ferrous metal &#65288;0.4billion&#65289;
5&#12289;Plastic and linoleum product &#65288;0.33billion&#65289;

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## DaRk WaVe

*India, I cant hear u* *CRY LOUDER!!!* 

As Patriot said Projects are inked cry as much as u can

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## aimarraul

India asks China to stay out of P-own-K
china:OK

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## Ruag

Jana said:


> When was the last time Kashmir was part of India??????????????



Yup.. agreed. Kashmir is not a part of India similar to how Earth is not a part of the Milky Way galaxy. The ancient Martians used a High Intensity Gravity Gun to suck Earth from Andromeda Galaxy into the present solar system.

I think I should leave the ancient Martians alone. They might get pissed at me. 

On a more serious note, when was Kashmir ever a part of Pakistan? Oh wait... the ancient Martians allocated Kashmir to Pakistan. Damn you ancient Martians!

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## koolio

I just dont understand why the Indians always twist the facts kashmir is a disputed territory which has been recognised by the UN security council resolutions, which is yet to be implemented and yet these Indians are behaving as if nothing is going on that part of the region just shove it under the carpet.

India has no business telling china what to do or not as regards to Pakistan.


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## Ruag

emo_girl said:


> *India, I cant hear u* *CRY LOUDER!!!*



Like how China keeps crying about Arunachal Pradesh? Hmm... China surely is very inspiring in this regard...

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## DaRk WaVe

Ruag said:


> Like how China keeps crying about Arunachal Pradesh? Hmm... China surely is very inspiring in this regard...



Correction India is Champion when it comes to Crying


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## Ruag

emo_girl said:


> Correction India is Champion when it comes to Crying



Nah.. I think that award should go to Pakistan.

When there are drone strikes, they point to USA and cry.

When there are terror attacks, they point to India and cry.

When there is shortage of funds, they point to IMF and cry.

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## boxer_B

koolio said:


> I just dont understand why the Indians always twist the facts kashmir is a disputed territory which has been recognised by the UN security council resolutions, which is yet to be implemented and yet these Indians are behaving as if nothing is going on that part of the region just shove it under the carpet.
> 
> India has no business telling china what to do or not as regards to Pakistan.



By the way india is growing economically and militarily, india keeps UN at its feet. About time india starts dictating terms to UN and abolish that resolution. 

By the way, its a huge diplomatic slap on chinese face which keeps on whining about AP. I know it wont make any difference but diplomatic BS is necessary.


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## DaRk WaVe

Ruag said:


> Nah.. I think that award should go to Pakistan.
> 
> When there are drone strikes, they point to USA and cry.
> 
> When there are terror attacks, they point to India and cry.
> 
> When there is shortage of funds, they point to IMF and cry.



Pakistan Gets RD-93 India Cry
Pakistan gets Deal for U-214 India cry
Pakistan get C-802 Chinese Cruise Missiles India cry
Pakistan goes for Block 52 India cry
Pakistan construct for Gawadar Port India cry
Pakistan tries to get Drones India cry
Pakistan signs Project with China India cry

Enough or u want more? 
There is Difference b/w Cry & protest

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## grey boy 2

Ruag said:


> Like how China keeps crying about Arunachal Pradesh? Hmm... China surely is very inspiring in this regard...



Indians really need to cry when your leadership act like this;

India's military leadership has made a stunning confession that New Delhi doesn't have the stomach for a fight, if push came to shove on the disputed Sino-Indian boundary.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-ca...-chief/99037-3.html:smitten::pakistan::china:


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## blueoval79

grey boy 2 said:


> Indians really need to cry when your leadership act like this;
> 
> India's military leadership has made a stunning confession that New Delhi doesn't have the stomach for a fight, if push came to shove on the disputed Sino-Indian boundary.
> http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-ca...-chief/99037-3.html:smitten::pakistan::china:



Did you read/watch the entire news item...he also said..China is 3 tomes bigger than India in terms of Area...and shares longer borders with its neighbor...so they need a bigger Defense Capability.....but I am sure you did not wait for him to finish...because you started jumping for joy on his first remark.....

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## grey boy 2

boxer_B said:


> By the way india is growing economically and militarily, india keeps UN at its feet. About time india starts dictating terms to UN and abolish that resolution.
> 
> By the way, its a huge diplomatic slap on chinese face which keeps on whining about AP. I know it wont make any difference but diplomatic BS is necessary.



There you go, finally understand the concept ; China is way ahead of

India in terms of military and economy, thats why we molesting you

anyway we want on the border, and India's only response=The most

peaceful area !!

Thats what you call a real slap on Indians face !!


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## grey boy 2

blueoval79 said:


> Did you read/watch the entire news item...he also said..China is 3 tomes bigger than India in terms of Area...and shares longer borders with its neighbor...so they need a bigger Defense Capability.....but I am sure you did not wait for him to finish...because you started jumping for joy on his first remark.....



You are correct, i didn't waste my time to read such crap news.

What for ?


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## Comet

Screaming Skull said:


> *"Pakistan has been in illegal occupation of parts of the Indian State of Jammu & Kashmir since 1947. The Chinese side is fully aware of India's position and our concerns about Chinese activities in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir."*



Yeh Kab Hoa?

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## blueoval79

grey boy 2 said:


> You are correct, i didn't waste my time to read such crap news.
> 
> What for ?



But you love to throw our half baked Crap at people ...across the forum.....


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## aimarraul

jarnee said:


> Nothing ..only stop trade and Chinese missions and companies in India, Dont forget, China exports to India are huge!!! and tilted more towards Chinese side.



thank god our trade is less than 2&#37; of the total amount,US should've asked china to destruct all nuclear weapons

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## Ruag

emo_girl said:


> Pakistan Gets RD-93 India Cry
> Pakistan gets Deal for U-214 India cry
> Pakistan get C-802 Chinese Cruise Missiles India cry
> Pakistan goes for Block 52 India cry
> Pakistan construct for Gawadar Port India cry
> Pakistan tries to get Drones India cry
> Pakistan signs Project with China India cry
> 
> Enough or u want more?
> There is Difference b/w Cry & protest



India applies for UNSC membership, Pakistan cries
India builds dams in Kashmir, Pakistan cries
India builds roads in Afghanistan, Pakistan cries
India launches nuclear submarine, Pakistan cries
India launches scientific expedition in Siachen, Pakistan cries
Balochistan insurgency intensifies, Pakistan cries to India
Taliban attacks Pakistani cities, Pakistan cries to India
India applies for OIC membership, Pakistan cries
India holds elections in Kashmir, Pakistan cries

You know... crying is not good for health...

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## grey boy 2

blueoval79 said:


> But you love to throw our half baked Crap at people ...across the forum.....



No more reply to troll like you; your flame bait =not working .

Nice try though.

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## duhastmish

i would say china wont respond in a constructive manenr to indian call.

because they have their strategic and financial interest in that region. 


therefor in reply:

i would liek to see some - some break on chinese indian trades.

chinese trade is hampering indian economy . its killing the local industries. with their garbage stuff.

Chinese will get a good wake up call with a stoppage on trade. because india dont really get any good useful lstuff from them anyways. 

-------------------------------------------------

Indians must welcome these strong words from their leadership and support the government. to take some harsh measures.


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## boxer_B

grey boy 2 said:


> There you go, finally understand the concept ; China is way ahead of
> 
> India in terms of military and economy, thats why we molesting you
> 
> anyway we want on the border, and India's only response=The most
> 
> peaceful area !!
> 
> Thats what you call a real slap on Indians face !!



Let me sum up your 600+ post of glorious career on PDF

*[GIBBERISH]*   

So let me get this right, molesting means painting rocks, dropping pork cans and stealing fuel? 

Its festival season here, send your army of one child policy. we have lot of painting jobs.

At the least, we dont drop our pants on seeing the enemy.

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## blueoval79

grey boy 2 said:


> No more reply to troll like you; your flame bait =not working .
> 
> Nice try though.



A troll accusing someone of trolling......this is not new from someone like you.....


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## Kavin

emo_girl said:


> There is Difference b/w Cry & protest



If subject is _Pakistan_ or _China_, verb should be _*Protest*_;
If subject is _India_, verb should be _*CRY*_ 

Right?


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## grey boy 2

boxer_B said:


> Let me sum up your 600+ post of glorious career on PDF
> 
> *[GIBBERISH]*
> 
> So let me get this right, molesting means painting rocks, dropping pork cans and stealing fuel?
> 
> Its festival season here, send your army of one child policy. we have lot of painting jobs.
> 
> At the least, we dont drop our pants on seeing the enemy.



Did you happened to drop your pants in 1962 ? HaHaHa 

P.S. Thankyou for reading my 600 plus post

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## blueoval79

grey boy 2 said:


> Did you happened to drop your pants in 1962 ? HaHaHa
> 
> P.S. Thankyou for reading my 600 plus post



Were you even born in 1962......


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## duhastmish

*this thread is going garbage !!!!! 

senior members and older members must refrain from posting - trolls and keep the emotions in check.. 

its happens way more now a days.

not just from chinese but also from indian and even pakistani memebers. lets not kill this thread like - many others.*
------------------------------------------------------------------
no matter what our leadership says. 

_but chinese and paksitani friendship is way more than - indian -chinese trade._

we can not just talk them or pressure them to act accordign to our wishes in pakistan.

the only way is to stop trade and work some pressure. thats the only way - which "might" give some results.


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## duhastmish

> since the world will get india's back,india should start the war tomorrow&#65292;china is very expecting it



_india would not attack china , neither we have a reason to attack , but we are very much prepared to defend ourself in any misadventure by china.

chinese will be replied in a fittign manner . and will be reminded before the end of world that- it wasnt really worth it. _

india leadership is not as educated or smart as chinese, if it will coem to war , it will be end of days to this whole world.

_but thank god !! these bloggers cant take countries to war, because we are too gutless to fight without a virtual weapon , keyboard and safety of hididng behind computer screen._

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## ghamai

I just dont understand y we 're so interested in kashmir, even tho we treated bangalis the same way when they wanted independence? we 've got balochis to worry abt 'nd we 've got nwfp to worry abt, havent we learnt yet that our own interest comes first? just see what meddling with others has done to us


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## dabong1

Ruag said:


> Yup.. agreed. Kashmir is not a part of India similar to how Earth is not a part of the Milky Way galaxy. The ancient Martians used a High Intensity Gravity Gun to suck Earth from Andromeda Galaxy into the present solar system.
> 
> I think I should leave the ancient Martians alone. They might get pissed at me.
> 
> On a more serious note, when was Kashmir ever a part of Pakistan? Oh wait... the ancient Martians allocated Kashmir to Pakistan. Damn you ancient Martians!



As normal...... a *spaced out* indian talking about azad kashmir


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## xukxuk

iamunique said:


> My message to the Chinese:
> 
> Most of the developed countries already hate you guys for:
> 1.Endangering their economies with your cheap products.
> 2.Arming rogue countries like Pakistan-North Korea-Iran with nukes.
> 
> Those countries are just waiting for an opportunity to kick your ***, so go ahead... make their day... come and get AP and see how the world supports us to shove your **** and your cheap goods up your ***.



we don't really care
this is not the first time that china has been hated by usa and russia
and here we are now 
we have been through that situation when we were much poorer and weaker

do you know some time it's really sad there is no one even bother to hate you


----------



## aimarraul

duhastmish said:


> _india would not attack china , neither we have a reason to attack , but we are very much prepared to defend ourself in any misadventure by china.
> 
> chinese will be replied in a fittign manner . and will be reminded before the end of world that- it wasnt really worth it. _
> 
> india leadership is not as educated or smart as chinese, if it will coem to war , it will be end of days to this whole world.
> 
> _but thank god !! these bloggers cant take countries to war, because we are too gutless to fight without a virtual weapon , keyboard and safety of hididng behind computer screen._



no, just end of days to both countries,no other countries will join this war ,they will wait,then pick their interest


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## graphican

Reddy said:


> Do you think anything will change on the ground if GOP raises kashmir issue in UN / IOC - they are just talk shows nothing much.



If they are just talks, they should not be hurting you. Are they? In this case Pakistan should talk of Kashmir and Indian Human Rights Violations in Kashmir more often.


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## duhastmish

aimarraul said:


> no, just end of days to both countries,no other countries will join this war ,they will wait,then pick their interest



*no aim - both these countries have weapons of mass distruction. so a war between these two means.

end of days for this earth. and we havent even found water on moon yet. ( lol )

result of this war will be too much to handle for the world. 

i would not even like to imagine such consequence. i think - the best intrest for both the countries - rest in - having a peaceful existence with each other and respecting eachother.
*
_try to develop together - if not at least - try to ignore each other. and live in their own space._


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## blueoval79

graphican said:


> In this case Pakistan should talk of Kashmir and Indian Human Rights Violations in Kashmir more often.



But Pakistan should not talk about this:

UNHCR | Refworld | Freedom in the World 2009 - Kashmir [Pakistan]


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## dabong1

arihant said:


> I dont think Pakistanis will accept it just for sake of their behaviour.



The Jammu Kashmir National Liberation Front, Jammu and Kashmir National Awami Party, Kashmir Freedom Movement, Jammu Kashmir Plebiscite Front, Kashmir Liberation Organisation, Association of British Kashmiris, Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (Y),Jammu Kashmir Peoples National Party and the Kashmir National Party were among the parties that were present at the demonstration. (ANI)..... are all groups that have more support in europe then they do in kashmir and even then the majority of kashmiris in eurpoe do not support these groups but laugh them as off as "uncles with nothing better to do".


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

vsdoc said:


> AM we ALL know what such "Independence" would actually mean, and how long it would last. So beyond the "jee hazoor, present sir, two bags full sir" customary parroting of the "official" line, I don't see what other purpose it would serve.
> 
> Whats better is that the people in the eye of the storm, the Kashmiris, know it too and are waking up from their religiously brainwashed slumber and speaking up.
> 
> All good things wouldn't you agree ...... especially since you (and all of us) want what's best for the Kashmiri man (and woman)?
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Kashmiris have always made the distinction - the banners proclaiming 'No India No Pakistan, Independent Kashmir' are not recent constructs.

The difference between the Indian and Pakistani official positions, given that neither support independence, is that the Pakistani position in based on the right of the Kashmiri people to determine their destiny out of the two options provided, whereas the Indian position is to refuse the Kashmiris the 'freedom' to do so, and impose Indian rule through force.

"Religiously brainwashed slumber" has nothing to do here, other than to assuage Indian sentiments and help define the separatist sentiment in a form that Indians can easily demonize. Sort of how the West would (and to some extent still does) brand anything counter to their perceived positions/interests as 'Commie's/Communism'.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

trickey said:


> The UN resolution is the UNs leverage( that's to be used during nuclear tests, human rights abuses, trade wars etc.), not Pakistan's. Needless to say, Pakistan has no leverage over the UN. I.e. Pakistan has no leverage over India via the UN route. UN's resolutions have been diluted due to father time,lack of will and Pakistan's "moral and principled stand".
> About the later, it has only served to keep international pressure off India's back. Nobody wants to appear to be supporting jihadis, even assuming that it was all a cunning Hindu fabrication.
> 
> About Pakistan's direct leverage over India, well, that has been unwisely expended. What India did not give up to 4 wars and terrorism, it is not about to give up to some negotiations,resolutions or transit barriers. IPI is also not going to materialize due to leverage mathematics. Nuclear blackmail would be about the best leverage Pakistan has at the moment.


I have no clue what that had to do with my post ...


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## mystic warrior

Ruag said:


> Yes... and the Moon is not a natural satellite of Earth but a giant earth observation satellite built by ancient Martians who are now extinct.



Really, its an artificial satellite? Oh no....how will Indian astrologers make a living schmoozing people now?


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## Spring Onion

Ruag said:


> India applies for UNSC membership, Pakistan cries
> 
> 
> You know... crying is not good for health...




OMG this resembles your tricolor

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## Spring Onion

duhastmish said:


> _india would not attack china , neither we have a reason to attack , but we are very much prepared to defend ourself in any misadventure by china.
> 
> chinese will be replied in a fittign manner . and will be reminded before the end of world that- it wasnt really worth it. _
> 
> india leadership is not as educated or smart as chinese, if it will coem to war , it will be end of days to this whole world.
> 
> _but thank god !! these bloggers cant take countries to war, because we are too gutless to fight without a virtual weapon , keyboard and safety of hididng behind computer screen._



sentimental ho gaya ray


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## arihant

Jana said:


> OMG this resembles your tricolor



tri color or your flag symbol. 

anyway funny, move to some discussion.


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## courageneverdies

An independent Kashmir would have no value between Pakistan and India, no existence rather. I am sure there would be no independence of Kashmir, and not now and for future Kashmir will be unificated. They either have to merge with India or Pakistan or may be divided between them.

Neither India is going to let waste her resources nor Pakistan.

I think the unification of Kashmir is not at all practical. First let India leave and than a referendum can sort out things. This would tell what Kashmiris want.

KIT Out

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## arihant

Independence means leaving them in the hell. Any other country will attack and wil take over. Also, UN resolution doesn't allow that. Also, you will give away anything such way to his enemy. LOC looks final deadline but something mutual agreements relating to Both side must be made for benefits of Kashmiri.


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## iamunique

Interesting how 'P.O.K' in the thread heading has changed to 'Azad Kashmir'. Too bad for some people that Indians cannot be removed from Kashmir just as easily.

Coming back... I think our Govt's remark to China was unnecessary. There were other ways to react to China's objection to our PM going to AP. *We should have had our PM go back again to AP and give an address to the Nation from some prominent landmark in AP*. Or may be *we should have conducted a summit meeting in AP between our PM and the Dalai Lama about the future of C.O.T. (China-Occupied-Tibet)*. That would have truly been a very fitting response.


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## WarProfessor

iamunique said:


> Interesting how 'P.O.K' in the thread heading has changed to 'Azad Kashmir'. Too bad for some people that Indians cannot be removed from Kashmir just as easily.
> 
> Coming back... I think our Govt's remark to China was unnecessary. There were other ways to react to China's objection to our PM going to AP. *We should have had our PM go back again to AP and give an address to the Nation from some prominent landmark in AP*. Or may be *we should have conducted a summit meeting in AP between our PM and the Dalai Lama about the future of C.O.T. (China-Occupied-Tibet)*. That would have truly been a very fitting response.



Then came the total silence of the Chinese Foreign Ministry and PLA...
I could not wait to see it.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

OK - enough of the crying part already.

Is there anything legitimate to discuss here or should I close the thread now?

My observations:

India's objections on Chinese investment (or any other nation for that matter) in Kashmir are invalid since the only international guidelines on Kashmir are those of the UNSC Resolutions.

The Resolutions do not prevent investment in the disputed territory by either the controlling entity or other nations. The people of Kashmir cannot be forced to live in caves and mud huts now can they? 

India herself has invested a tremendous amount in the disputed territory under her control to try and win the loyalty of the Kashmiris. If anything, this opposition to Chinese investment would imply that India does not want the people of PaK to benefit from economic development, which is a very negative position to take, and is unlikely to win any support for India from the people of G-B or Azad Kashmir.

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## Developereo

When countries start issuing separate visas to Pakistanis from Azad Kashmir, the way China is doing to people in Indian occupied Kashmir, then you can be happy.

Until then...

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## gubbi

I think I posted this in the wrong thread yesterday. Its more relevant here. So apologies for a repost, but let me post important snippets of the article. Rest of the article and post in Links below:
Subir Roy: How to handle negative Chinese vibes

Re: India China Border Dispute


> Negative vibes between India and China are growing. It would be calamitous if this leads to greater military spending which will inevitably take away resources from fighting poverty. *For their part, both the governments have sought to underplay rising temperatures*, with the Indian government asserting that the border has been the &#8220;most peaceful&#8221; and there is machinery to sort out incursions.





> The other is that it seems a Chinese design to spread its &#8220;soft power&#8221;, widening its influence using culture as a tool, &#8220;camouflaging the Confucius Institute in the language proposal.&#8221; And what is this horrible institute? It is like the American Centre. Even the Canadian Security Intelligence has doubts on the centre, saying in a declassified intelligence report, hold your breath, &#8220;*China wants the world to have positive feelings towards China and things Chinese, which &#8230; (is a sign of) desire for soft power.&#8221;*





> *Why have temperatures risen lately? A recent milestone is the failed Chinese attempt to prevent an Asian Development Bank $ 2.9 billion country loan to India as it included $ 60 million for a project in Arunachal Pradesh. India went all out to muster international diplomatic support&#8212; it could hardly have done otherwise&#8212; and the Chinese lost face. They hate doing so and India should expect and react in a measured way to Chinese sniping to inflict retaliatory humiliation on India.*
> 
> But *Chinese animosity towards India predates that misadventure of theirs and runs deeper. Experts trace it to the India-US nuclear deal* which they see as taking India into the American orbit. This cannot be good news for China. Emerging China takes its global role seriously (witness the show of might at the 60th anniversary of its revolution) and will not tolerate an alternative pole in Asia.





> India&#8217;s response? It should take a leaf out of the Chinese book and play long term. It has to build its economic power as diplomatic and military power are built on that base. China leads India in virtually every respect&#8212; GDP, the fight against poverty, literacy, life expectancy, higher education and research&#8212; with perhaps one exception, software exports. *Against this, if there is a single weakness which China is rapidly developing, it is hubris.*
> 
> India must lie low in the short and medium term, build its strength (*only a confident nation can strike deals*) and hope that conditions in both countries will be ripe for striking the deal which Deng Xiaoping had offered in 1988 but which India had declined&#8212; accepting the status quo, the line of actual control, as the international border between the two countries.



IMVHO, the article makes a lot of sense.


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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> My observations:
> 
> India's objections on Chinese investment (or any other nation for that matter) in Kashmir are invalid since the only international guidelines on Kashmir are those of the UNSC Resolutions.


If that's the case, why would you refer to Kashmir under Pakistan's control as "Azad Kashmir"? When for purposes and intents, it is under Pakistani "occupation", with its govt, foreign affairs and military being under Pakistani control? Doesn't that sound hypocritical?
You very well know that Kashmiris want freedom, an independent state and while UNSC resolutions do not provide a provision for independence, you still want to stick to it? Is that what your support for kashmiris mean? So it actually translates to "be a part of Pakistan or be in a restive state till you do so."
No thanks, UNSC resolutions will not work till Pakistani troops leave the occupied territories. Period. No ifs and buts. Stop claiming moral high ground, a farce imho, till you abide by the rules which you claim to want to implement.


> The Resolutions do not prevent investment in the disputed territory by either the controlling entity or other nations. The people of Kashmir cannot be forced to live in caves and mud huts now can they?
> 
> India herself has invested a tremendous amount in the disputed territory under her control to try and win the loyalty of the Kashmiris. If anything, this opposition to Chinese investment would imply that India does not want the people of PaK to benefit from economic development, which is a very negative position to take, and is unlikely to win any support for India from the people of G-B or Azad Kashmir.


Of course my friend. So, similarly, it thus translates that when China blocks aid for the development for Arunachal Pradesh, their intentions for the people of AP are not good. They dont want those peoples lives to improve! Excellent point AM.
Beware of the Chinese then, dear Indians from AP, for they do not want a developed state there!

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> If that's the case, why would you refer to Kashmir under Pakistan's control as "Azad Kashmir"? When for purposes and intents, it is under Pakistani "occupation", with its govt, foreign affairs and military being under Pakistani control? Doesn't that sound hypocritical?


Why does what sound hypocritical? How does a name change the status of the territory, when the GoP continues to accept the UNSC resolutions - its n like we are arguing that just because we call it 'Azad kashmir' it is not disputed territory and the UNSC resolutions do not apply.

Nor do the UNSC resolutions prevent the controlling entities from developing governance systems for the disputed territory until the dispute is resolved.


> You very well know that Kashmiris want freedom, an independent state and while UNSC resolutions do not provide a provision for independence, you still want to stick to it? Is that what your support for kashmiris mean? So it actually translates to "be a part of Pakistan or be in a restive state till you do so."
> No thanks, UNSC resolutions will not work till Pakistani troops leave the occupied territories. Period. No ifs and buts. Stop claiming moral high ground, a farce imho, till you abide by the rules which you claim to want to implement.



Off topic, the resolutions and associated issues have been discussed threadbare elsewhere - I am merely pointing out that Indian complaints have no bearing internationally given that the UNSC resolutions remain the only internationally agreed framework to view Kashmir.


> Of course my friend. So, similarly, it thus translates that when China blocks aid for the development for Arunachal Pradesh, their intentions for the people of AP are not good. They dont want those peoples lives to improve! Excellent point AM.
> Beware of the Chinese then, dear Indians from AP, for they do not want a developed state there!


Take it up in the AP thread please - but to reiterate my point, India's opposition to investment and development in G-B and AK smacks of hypocrisy and will likely come across as an extremely negative development for the people of G-B and AK.


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## PostColonial

The Youtube comments section has more intelligent discussions.


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## Developereo

arihant said:


> Anything, Anti-pakistani is Indian.



No.

This particular deceptive tactic of hiding behind other countries' flags seems to be a favorite of Indians. Most of them give themselves away sooner or later by their blatant sucking up to India and their rabid attacks on Pakistan at every opportunity.

There's tons of them pretending to be Americans on this forum, a couple hide behind the British flag, and this idiot pretends to be French.

Pity they are so ashamed of their Indian heritage.


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## Nemesis

Agnostic, why was the name of the thread changed to Azad Kashmir? I thought the policy on this forum was to post articles the way it is represented on news sites? I call censorship!

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Nemesis said:


> Agnostic, why was the name of the thread changed to Azad Kashmir? I thought the policy on this forum was to post articles the way it is represented on news sites? I call censorship!



The policy of the forum is to also censor the word P-o-K, and typically any variations on it.

You may disagree with that policy being an Indian, but that is the policy of the forum.


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## dabong1

Nemesis said:


> Agnostic, why was the name of the thread changed to Azad Kashmir? I thought the policy on this forum was to post articles the way it is represented on news sites? I call censorship!



Ask the majority of people if they think that it should be called azad kashmir or *** and i will guarantee the majority will choose azad kashmir.......now try the same thing in IOK and the majority would say that they are under occupation.
Do the people in Arunachal Pradesh accept the term "indian occupied china" or do they you think the would call themself indian and say that Arunachal Pradesh is indian?.......its what the people of kashmir think that counts and not what the indians choose on calling them that is important.


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## Spring Onion

Seriously this crying by India viz viz bringing Kashmir into Indo-China current parnoid attaitude by Indian orange media and some equally paranoid Indians, is wiered specially when India has no guts to deal China over border disputes.

It is more amusing that how Indians are busy in demonising Pakistan and your media is creating more fuss about nothing by accusing China of intrusions every now and then, But China quitely is developing good road network arround AP and Tawang.

So better you focus on your own issue instead of throwing you anger on Pakistan just because you cant deal with China


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## SinoIndusFriendship

Jana said:


> When was the last time Kashmir was part of India??????????????
> 
> 
> get over your Orange media and your orange minded politicians who always do poom poom poo



Truth is, every intelligent person on Earth familiar with India-Pak relations KNOWS that during the division the land with majority of Muslims was to become Pakistan, and the land with the majority of Hindus was to become India! And since Kashmir is almost 100% Muslim, it is naturally NOT part of India -- hence the illegal occupation. 

If Bharat complies with their obligation to hold a pleiscibite than it is obvious an astonishing vast majority of Kashmiris would vote to be part of Pakistan, and an even greater number would vote to be FREE from Bharat's strangulation.


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## Spring Onion

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> Truth is, every intelligent person on Earth familiar with India-Pak relations KNOWS that during the division the land with majority of Muslims was to become Pakistan, and the land with the majority of Hindus was to become India! And since Kashmir is almost 100% Muslim, it is naturally NOT part of India -- hence the illegal occupation.
> 
> If Bharat complies with their obligation to hold a pleiscibite than it is obvious an astonishing vast majority of Kashmiris would vote to be part of Pakistan, and an even greater number would vote to be FREE from Bharat's strangulation.



 We know it. But asking some other country not to cooperate with other independent countries is like crying over split milk.


In case of this funny statement well Chinese must be laughing at India, as if this statement will affect the Chinese health.

On the other hand i feel India is trying to get attention and drag China into Kashmir issue and if China has become part of this Kashmir issue activly well i think things will be changed to Indian unease further


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## SinoIndusFriendship

wangrong said:


> *2007/042008/03 India-China trade nears $37.8 billion *
> 
> 
> *Chinas exports to India *
> 
> 1&#12289;electrical machinery and equipment&#65288;$7.6 billion )
> 2&#12289;Non-electric machinery and equipment&#65288;$3.2billion &#65289;
> 3&#12289;Steel and iron &#65288;$1.9billion &#65289;
> 4&#12289;Organic chemical industry &#65288;$1.7billion &#65289;
> 5&#12289;Coal, coke class &#65288;$1.2billion &#65289;
> 
> *Indias exports to China *
> 
> 1&#12289;Iron ore &#65288;$5.3billion &#65289;
> 2&#12289;Cotton &#65288;$1billion &#65289;
> 3&#12289;Other minerals &#65288;$1billion &#65289;
> 4&#12289;Non-ferrous metal &#65288;0.4billion&#65289;
> 5&#12289;Plastic and linoleum product &#65288;0.33billion&#65289;



Fact of the matter is Bharat needs the World much more than the world needs Bharat. Bharat is the greater beneficiary in Sino-Indo relations, and as such have the most to lose from deterioration. There are nearly two hundred nations on Earth, and guess which one nation has about the SAME NUMBER OF SEVERELY poor as the rest combined? 

Sino assistance and trade is instrumental for Bharat's subsistence, without which it will continue to rot away. It is like you are starving, someone comes with good intentions to your assistance and gives you food, you spit the food out complaining it doesn't suit your 'tastes'. How reasonable is that?


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## third eye

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> Fact of the matter is Bharat needs the World much more than the world needs Bharat. Bharat is the greater beneficiary in Sino-Indo relations, and as such have the most to lose from deterioration. There are nearly two hundred nations on Earth, and guess which one nation has about the SAME NUMBER OF SEVERELY poor as the rest combined?
> 
> Sino assistance and trade is instrumental for Bharat's subsistence, without which it will continue to rot away. * It is like you are starving, someone comes with good intentions to your assistance and gives you food, you spit the food out complaining it doesn't suit your 'tastes'. How reasonable is that? *



It is a stupid example, but for a reply :

If the giver of the food has ' ulterior' motives to the food he ' gives', it is better to starve to death than allow your self respect to be trod over or sell your land .


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## boxer_B

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> Truth is, every intelligent person on Earth familiar with India-Pak relations KNOWS that during the division the land with majority of Muslims was to become Pakistan, and the land with the majority of Hindus was to become India! And since Kashmir is almost 100&#37; Muslim, it is naturally NOT part of India -- hence the illegal occupation.
> 
> If Bharat complies with their obligation to hold a plebiscite than it is obvious an astonishing vast majority of Kashmiris would vote to be part of Pakistan, and an even greater number would vote to be FREE from Bharat's strangulation.



How about plebiscite in Urmaqui? Kashmir is not 100% muslim, get your facts straight.

Right so india is oppressing muslims how? By denying them RIGHT to hold Quran or by denying them RIGHT to Namaz or by denying them RIGHT to visit Macca? 

Kashmir is Integral part of india. India has adopted a very good policy of wait and watch and delaying the solution. Each day, difference between pakistan and india's economy and military is growing. We are waiting for India to become UNSC member and kill that kashmir resolution. About time india makes UN its bi**h like ICC


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## Spring Onion

boxer_B said:


> How about plebiscite in Urmaqui? Kashmir is not 100% muslim, get your facts straight.
> 
> Right so india is oppressing muslims how? By denying them RIGHT to hold Quran or by denying them RIGHT to Namaz or by denying them RIGHT to visit Macca?
> 
> Kashmir is Integral part of india. India has adopted a very good policy of wait and watch and delaying the solution. Each day, difference between pakistan and india's economy and military is growing. We are waiting for India to become UNSC member and kill that kashmir resolution.




Kashmir was not never been part of India. India is an occupying brutal outside that is killing hundreds of innocent Kashmiri women, childern and men and raping innocent Kashmiri women.

Your guilty Indian army soldiers are committing suicide out of guilt or either killing own fellows.

On the other hand oppression of Muslims in India is not new.

---------- Post added at 10:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 PM ----------




third eye said:


> It is a stupid example, but for a reply :
> 
> If the giver of the food has ' ulterior' motives to the food he ' gives', it is better to starve to death than allow your self respect to be trod over or sell your land .



So when is India going to serve its trade ties with China?


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## Omar1984

Just ask the people of Azad Kashmir if they would rather be part of India than be part of Pakistan.

Indians know they wont be able to handle Azad Kashmir. There's no one in Pakistan who hates India more than Kashmiris do. Indians just dont want to see any kind of benefit for Pakistan.


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## adrenalin

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> Truth is, every intelligent person on Earth familiar with India-Pak relations KNOWS that during the division the land with majority of Muslims was to become Pakistan, and the land with the majority of Hindus was to become India! And since Kashmir is almost 100% Muslim, it is naturally NOT part of India -- hence the illegal occupation.
> 
> If Bharat complies with their obligation to hold a pleiscibite than it is obvious an astonishing vast majority of Kashmiris would vote to be part of Pakistan, and an even greater number would vote to be FREE from Bharat's strangulation.



Kashmir was ruled by a Hindu King named Hari Singh, when Pakistani forces tried to accede Kashmir to Pakistan in 1947. Upon Lord Mountbatten's advice Hari Singh joined the Indian Republic and Indian Forces made sure that is the case.

Also, after Pakistan started sponsoring terrorism in Kashmir, millions of Kashmiri Pandits were displaced. They are still displaced.

You either have no knowledge of history, or a mental case, just rubbishing your tongue for the sake of it!!!


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## adrenalin

Omar1984 said:


> Just ask the people of Azad Kashmir if they would rather be part of India than be part of Pakistan.
> 
> Indians know they wont be able to handle Azad Kashmir. There's no one in Pakistan who hates India more than Kashmiris do. Indians just dont want to see any kind of benefit for Pakistan.



Dude, we don't need to ask anything to anyone. We don't ask people living in Mumbai, if they want to be a part of India or otherwise. We didn't ask Baloch Rebels the same. Same goes for Kashmir. Period.


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## Omar1984

adrenalin said:


> Dude, we don't need to ask anything to anyone. We don't ask people living in Mumbai, if they want to be a part of India or otherwise. We didn't ask Baloch Rebels the same. Same goes for Kashmir. Period.



No the same doesn't go for Kashmir because unlike Balochistan, Kashmir is a DISPUTED TERRITORY, its recognized by the UN and the entire international community as a DISPUTED TERRITORY. Line of Control is not International Borders.

Best way to correct the disputed status of Jammu and Kashmir is to ask the people belonging to the disputed territory which one do they prefer India or Pakistan and just give the entire disputed territory of Jammu and Kashmir to the country the people of the disputed region want to belong to.

Until then, our friend China is welcomed everywhere in Pakistan, including Azad Kashmir.


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## alirulesall123

boxer_B said:


> . We are waiting for India to become UNSC member and kill that kashmir resolution. About time india makes UN its bi**h like ICC



And you indians wonder why the rest of South Asia is paranoid about India's deceitful habits


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## deckingraj

> Truth is, every intelligent person on Earth familiar with India-Pak relations KNOWS that during the division the land with majority of Muslims was to become Pakistan, and the land with the majority of Hindus was to become India! And since Kashmir is almost 100&#37; Muslim, it is naturally NOT part of India -- hence the illegal occupation.
> 
> If Bharat complies with their obligation to hold a pleiscibite than it is obvious an astonishing vast majority of Kashmiris would vote to be part of Pakistan, and an even greater number would vote to be FREE from Bharat's strangulation.



"SinoIndusFriendship" - Please understand its a conflict and we both will have different opinions but Let's try not to change history for the sake of winning some brownie points...In case you don't know then there are ample number of posts in various threads which you can read and increase your knowledge...

a) Kashmir is/was not 100% Muslim. It has muslims(majority), Hindu's(Kashmiri Pandits) and other religion people
b) Kashmir was a princely state during partition and princely states had no obligations to accept Majority hindu/muslim rule. The decision was in hands of Rulers of the respective states
c) One condition of pleblicite was that Pak would remove its army from Kashmir but as far as i know that never happened...

I am sure you would also have similar points that will suggest its India who is wrong in Kashmir but lets atleast not tweak history but learn from it...






> We know it. But asking some other country not to cooperate with other independent countries is like crying over split milk.



Jana comon...what split milk are you referring to?? They objected our PM visit in AP which both parties(India and China) claims there and the same way we objected to their involvement in Kashmir which is a conflicted state... I dont see any irony in it...Help me understand plz....



> In case of this funny statement well Chinese must be laughing at India, as if this statement will affect the Chinese health.



As if there statement affect our health...They gave us reason to laugh and we reciprocated the favor...



> On the other hand i feel India is trying to get attention and drag China into Kashmir issue and if China has become part of this Kashmir issue activly well i think things will be changed to Indian unease further


Wrong assumption...India always consider Kashmir as a bilateral issue. we would not like any intervention from any one...However we do have bilateral issues with China on Aksai Chin...


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## Iggy

Jana said:


> *Kashmir was not never been part of India. India is an occupying brutal outside that is killing hundreds of innocent Kashmiri women, childern and men and raping innocent Kashmiri women.
> 
> Your guilty Indian army soldiers are committing suicide out of guilt or either killing own fellows.
> 
> On the other hand oppression of Muslims in India is not new*.
> 
> It would have been a nicer post if you add some cruelities of Brahmins in India against lower caste and some other things in your imaginations too..tell me how many innocent Kashmiri women and children dies because of the cowardly act of the terrorists?there lives does not count??How many Kashimiri pundits have to loose their belongings and all their wealth and fled to other states because of the cruelties of terrorists which you call the so called freedom fighters..Their lives also don't count because they are Hindus??By the way check the nationalities of the terrorists killed in Kashmir ok..you can see many are from out side..does it mean some thing to you?you are saying Indian Army doing all the killings...killing innocent peoples by the terrorists is not cruelty right??they are freedom fighters right?Jana please read to some independent media reports and links than using your far fetched imaginations ..and by the way the brahmins you are talking..they don't have much voice in our politics now.. and most of them are living in poverty too ..the stories you heard were 25 -30 years old better have some facts than using the imaginations


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## oceanx

seiko said:


> Jana said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Kashmir was not never been part of India. India is an occupying brutal outside that is killing hundreds of innocent Kashmiri women, childern and men and raping innocent Kashmiri women.
> 
> Your guilty Indian army soldiers are committing suicide out of guilt or either killing own fellows.
> 
> On the other hand oppression of Muslims in India is not new*.
> 
> It would have been a nicer post if you add some cruelities of Brahmins in India against lower caste and some other things in your imaginations too..tell me how many innocent Kashmiri women and children dies because of the cowardly act of the terrorists?there lives does not count??How many Kashimiri pundits have to loose their belongings and all their wealth and fled to other states because of the cruelties of terrorists which you call the so called freedom fighters..Their lives also don't count because they are Hindus??By the way check the nationalities of the terrorists killed in Kashmir ok..you can see many are from out side..does it mean some thing to you?you are saying Indian Army doing all the killings...killing innocent peoples by the terrorists is not cruelty right??they are freedom fighters right?Jana please read to some independent media reports and links than using your far fetched imaginations ..and by the way the brahmins you are talking..they don't have much voice in our politics now.. and most of them are living in poverty too ..the stories you heard were 25 -30 years old better have some facts than using the imaginations
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A little humour does go a long way - yeah, how many "pundits" and how much did they "loose"?
> 
> All kiddings on pandit tragedies aside - at some point, you may realize that an independent Kashmir is not really such a bad thing.
Click to expand...


----------



## rajeev

oceanx said:


> seiko said:
> 
> 
> 
> A little humour does go a long way - yeah, how many "pundits" and how much did they "loose"?
> 
> All kiddings on pandit tragedies aside - at some point, you may realize that an independent Kashmir is not really such a bad thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just like Tibet belongs to monks!
> 
> You cannot make history to suit your thinking. No time in the past, China was large as the country it is now. If you cannot get true history of your country in Chinese textbooks, you can look up Wikipedia.
> 
> History of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> The Song, Ming and Yang dynasties held different parts of China and so there is no logic to claim that during one era China owned Outer Mongolia and in another era China had Tibet.
> 
> So, if you settle on that thinking, then we can talk of today's notion of nation.
> 
> #1 India was formed a secular democratic state whereas, Pakistan was the one that wanted an Islamic Republic. So, just because Kashmir had Muslim majority cannot in its own make Kashmiris aligning with Pakistan.
> 
> #2 Pakistani army attacked Kashmir , not India. The Kashmiri people informed the King to protect them from invaders (not liberators)
> 
> #3 Kashmiri King signed agreement with India to join India. Only, then India joined the war.
> 
> #4 In 1965, Pakistani army thought of liberating (?) Kashmir. And Kashmiri people informed Indian government of actions and India fought back. This is ridiculous as the so-called liberators are caught by the same people who Pakistani army wanted to liberate.
> 
> #5 In 1971, LOAC was defined and the agreement was signed by Pakistan and India and all future talks will be bilateral.
> 
> 
> So a country which does not gets its way either by people's backing (in Kashmir), by armed aggression (1965 war) and by politically (in 1971), they turned to the last attempt - by sending terrorists into the country.
> 
> I think China should be proud of this country because very soon the same people are planning to send terrorists to China to liberate (?) Uljmers. Probably, then China will see it.
> 
> There is a saying in India - wise sees things before it happens, the learned sees things when it happens and less intelligent people cannot see even after it happens.
Click to expand...

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## oceanx

rajeev said:


> Just like Tibet belongs to monks!
> 
> ...
> 
> The Song, Ming and Yang dynasties held different parts of China ...



 teaching me Chinese history, uh? Well bless your good heart, laddy . And what is this "Yang" dynasty, btw? 

You are not a "pundit", are you? 

Anyways, Tibet will get what Tibet is due. How do you know behind-the-scene negotiations are not ongoing for DL to claim an auspicious strip to do his high-grade autonomy thing in a "Vatican-in-Lhasa"?

You don't, and neither do I.

Everything is a compromise. DL can ask for his "Greater Tibet" all day long ...

BTW, don't compare Kashmir to Tibet - the proper comparison with Kashmir is Taiwan, although I will not elaborate on this further here.

The analogy to Tibet is Khalistan, Raj - and you know that already even as an "Indo-American".

Compare domestic unrests with domestic unrests. And compare international disputes with international disputes.

You can handle that, can't you?


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## deckingraj

> A little humour does go a long way - yeah, how many "pundits" and how much did they "loose"?


Dont belittle tragic historical incidents...People who are forced to move out of their homes and are forced to start life afresh deserve that much respect atleast..


> All kiddings on pandit tragedies aside - at some point, you may realize that an independent Kashmir is not really such a bad thing.



And your basis for such sound suggestion??? 



> BTW, don't compare Kashmir to Tibet - the proper comparison with Kashmir is Taiwan, although I will not elaborate on this further here.


So if i go by above logic of yours an independent Taiwan is not really such a bad thing...right????


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## Omar1984

When was the last time the Prime Minister of India visited Indian Occupied Kashmir and personally talked with Kashmiri students so openly like the Prime Minister of Pakistan has in Azad Kashmir.



Kashmiris have way more in common with Pakistanis than they ever can have with Indians. 
Kashmiris and Pakistanis are one family.


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## Iggy

oceanx said:


> seiko said:
> 
> 
> 
> A little humour does go a long way - yeah, how many "pundits" and how much did they "loose"?
> 
> All kiddings on pandit tragedies aside - at some point, you may realize that an independent Kashmir is not really such a bad thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well we can tell this things about Tibet,Taiwan and Uighur too right??see the link below.you will know what they lost and how much..
> 
> Ethnic Cleansing in Kashmir, Three Pundits Killed
> Terrorism: Kashmiri Pundits, Forgotten Community | NowPublic News Coverage
Click to expand...


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## HAIDER

India is very aggressive those days,specially recently adopted confrontational policy with China. First moving army along chinese border, open new air field. Then planning to take Dalai Lama to Arunchal Paradesh, that's where India cross the limit and China has no other way to offer visa to Kashmiries. China tried his best to be impartial " politically" at Kashmir issue, but Indian policy has drag inn China and became a part of this issue. Now China is openly came up to fight for its national interest, where India has no regional advantage, because major partner of regional economic policy are China and Pakistan. Indian getting their support from far lands of Europe,which is already abstaining itself,because of their own economic issues and sudden economic meltdown. As far as China, Pakistan is his key ally. China will never sacrifice its route to middle east , Afirca or short cut to Europe for billion dollar trade with India.
But giving China trade surplus will never help India anyway. May be it was test policy of India by letting Chinese approach to their markets and once they start taking away profit, then India will start it demands. But unfortunately it looks like everything back fire.
Where recent advice from Bill Clinton, where he said India need to stop its heavy defence spending and try to compete with China.


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## Lethalforce

A lot of this is instigated by USA, they have no leverage against China and they are trying to groom India in that direction, their other allies are no matches or peace loving chickens, Australia and Japan and S.korea are the only other choices USA has.


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## WJ-knight

dear indians,
if you say that Kashmir is yours,then why are you killing them,and if you realy think that kashmir's people want to join india then what is your amry,which is more than 7 lakh,is doing there.lastly,I think when ever times come for referendum over kashmir by Kashmirs INDIA CRYS


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## rajeev

oceanx said:


> teaching me Chinese history, uh? Well bless your good heart, laddy . And what is this "Yang" dynasty, btw?
> 
> You are not a "pundit", are you?
> 
> Anyways, Tibet will get what Tibet is due. How do you know behind-the-scene negotiations are not ongoing for DL to claim an auspicious strip to do his high-grade autonomy thing in a "Vatican-in-Lhasa"?
> 
> You don't, and neither do I.
> 
> Everything is a compromise. DL can ask for his "Greater Tibet" all day long ...
> 
> BTW, don't compare Kashmir to Tibet - the proper comparison with Kashmir is Taiwan, although I will not elaborate on this further here.
> 
> The analogy to Tibet is Khalistan, Raj - and you know that already even as an "Indo-American".
> 
> Compare domestic unrests with domestic unrests. And compare international disputes with international disputes.
> 
> You can handle that, can't you?



Respectfully sir, I disagree.

Taiwan-to-Kashmir - isnt that comical? You compare a nation that desperately not want to join so-called Chinese union to Kashmir. Let me break the logic for you so that you can see your fallacy!

# J&K is governed by India via democratic elections. Taiwan has democratic elections but they are not in Chinese-senate. 
# Taiwan desperately arming itself to fend off China by having state-of-art weapons and having US warships on its soil.
# Taiwan used to have permanent seat until China was reseated during the Coldwar for fulfilling US interests. (compare that India and Kashmir  )
# Kashmir people can live anywhere in India, Chinese will need a visa to go to Taiwan.

I think it would beneficial to read more news and understand what is going in the world other than reading Asia times.

Now, regarding your argument for Tibet people living in India. India allows refugees - that is the state policy. These monks are living in India with no consequence to China. There are no terrorists with them that explode(!)

So as a Indian refugee, they have rights to move anywhere in the country. India is governed by constitution and every individual is empowered with those rights. India does not need China to tell us how run our country. I am sure more than a billion people concur.

Free thought is exercised in India. If China has difficulty working with free media, it should not consider other states will follow as it works with its media. How pathetic you guys are banned watching even youtube - God forbid you know what is really happening in your own country.


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## sathruvinasakh

Patriot said:


> China's Response=  .The projects are already inked with China.Besides, WHAT can India do if China does not stop?



1)So simple. Keeping a nation of 1.15 billion at stake is far better than kicking a freaken 50 billion dollar trade with China.

2)Attesting the Free Tibet claim and supporting Dalai Lama.Let them burn the chinese ambasador and the embassy ,we dont give a crap.

3)Train AP people and tibetans in guerrilla warfare as like China is doing to the NE militants against Indian interests.. 

4)Provide nukes to Taiwan as like China did to Pakistan.

5)Provide nukes and missiles to vietnam as like China did to B`desh

6)Suspend all the chinese business in India and keep the diplomatic agreement in the furnace.

7)Support Xinjian minorities with weapons and monetary.

8)Make chinese feel that the shipping through IOR will be a nightmare .
9)Start deploying subs in the partially leased base on the far east of russia.

10)So far India is not in the China`s road to the future.but India will be poking in each and every sense it finds a spot.

So far India experienced everything right from wars,corruption,poverty,riches,......... but China apart from the authoritarian rule after its new birth only experienced the high end.The day India starts doing these,Chinese will find no land to hide themself.

Mind one thing.

Dont poke a sleeping lion.The politicians of India might be assholes, but not its citizens.


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## aimarraul

seiko said:


> oceanx said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well we can tell this things about Tibet,Taiwan and Uighur too right??see the link below.you will know what they lost and how much..
> 
> Ethnic Cleansing in Kashmir, Three Pundits Killed
> Terrorism: Kashmiri Pundits, Forgotten Community | NowPublic News Coverage
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be so modest&#65292;india govt is supporting tibet separatists for decades&#65292;your govt even arm those ten thousand separatists in india
Click to expand...


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## rajeev

HAIDER said:


> India is very aggressive those days,specially recently adopted confrontational policy with China. First moving army along chinese border, open new air field. Then planning to take Dalai Lama to Arunchal Paradesh, that's where India cross the limit and China has no other way to offer visa to Kashmiries. China tried his best to be impartial " politically" at Kashmir issue, but Indian policy has drag inn China and became a part of this issue. Now China is openly came up to fight for its national interest, where India has no regional advantage, because major partner of regional economic policy are China and Pakistan. Indian getting their support from far lands of Europe,which is already abstaining itself,because of their own economic issues and sudden economic meltdown. As far as China, Pakistan is his key ally. China will never sacrifice its route to middle east , Afirca or short cut to Europe for billion dollar trade with India.
> But giving China trade surplus will never help India anyway. May be it was test policy of India by letting Chinese approach to their markets and once they start taking away profit, then India will start it demands. But unfortunately it looks like everything back fire.
> Where recent advice from Bill Clinton, where he said India need to stop its heavy defence spending and try to compete with China.



I concur India is becoming aggressive in the following manner:
# By violating international borders and painting on the rocks
# Issuing Indian visas to Chinese on a toilet paper rather than on a passport.
# Spending as much as 2.6% GDP compare to meager 4.4% and 5% GDP compared to its neighbors.
# Trying to settle talks on water-sharing with other smaller country by talking rather than invading.
# Aggressively moves to oppose loan to develop infrastructure in its country.
# Providing weapons to all its neighbours.
# Developing deep water ports for China's neighbours by paying almost all the costs from its own pocket.

With so much provaction, how can China not invade Arunchal Pradesh? They would have invaded but wanted to give India a last chance you see!


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## sathruvinasakh

Jana said:


> When was the last time Kashmir was part of India??????????????
> 
> 
> get over your Orange media and your orange minded politicians who always do poom poom poo



Poor kid.I think your history books didnt tell you that pakistan was born on the eve of 1947 when queen of england mated with India.

And for your further enlightenment,
Go to the worlds oldest library and find out the worlds oldest history book .You will know about the ancient India (called Bharatavarsha or in short Bharat)


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## EjazR

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> OK - enough of the crying part already.
> 
> Is there anything legitimate to discuss here or should I close the thread now?
> 
> My observations:
> 
> India's objections on Chinese investment (or any other nation for that matter) in Kashmir are invalid since the only international guidelines on Kashmir are those of the UNSC Resolutions.
> 
> The Resolutions do not prevent investment in the disputed territory by either the controlling entity or other nations. The people of Kashmir cannot be forced to live in caves and mud huts now can they?
> 
> India herself has invested a tremendous amount in the disputed territory under her control to try and win the loyalty of the Kashmiris. If anything, this opposition to Chinese investment would imply that India does not want the people of PaK to benefit from economic development, which is a very negative position to take, and is unlikely to win any support for India from the people of G-B or Azad Kashmir.



AM the point is that Pakistan herself can invest in the part of Kashmir in its area of control and build schools hospitals e.t.c. since its a bilaterla issue between India and Pakistan. But when a foreign country (that illegaly occupies parts of Gilgit Baltistan and Ladakh) does the same, its compeltely different an apparently unacceptable


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## sathruvinasakh

wangrong said:


> *2007/042008/03 India-China trade nears $37.8 billion *
> 
> 
> *Chinas exports to India *
> 
> 1&#12289;electrical machinery and equipment&#65288;$7.6 billion )
> 2&#12289;Non-electric machinery and equipment&#65288;$3.2billion &#65289;
> 3&#12289;Steel and iron &#65288;$1.9billion &#65289;
> 4&#12289;Organic chemical industry &#65288;$1.7billion &#65289;
> 5&#12289;Coal, coke class &#65288;$1.2billion &#65289;
> 
> *Indias exports to China *
> 
> 1&#12289;Iron ore &#65288;$5.3billion &#65289;
> 2&#12289;Cotton &#65288;$1billion &#65289;
> 3&#12289;Other minerals &#65288;$1billion &#65289;
> 4&#12289;Non-ferrous metal &#65288;0.4billion&#65289;
> 5&#12289;Plastic and linoleum product &#65288;0.33billion&#65289;



Well, this year trade alone reached $50 billion with more than 75% being exports from China.It is china who will loose more if it looses its 10th biggest trade partner.for Indian companies ,it will be a boon.Atleast Indians will get away from the crappiest cheap chinese junk.


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## grey boy 2

rajeev said:


> Respectfully sir, I disagree.
> 
> Taiwan-to-Kashmir - isnt that comical? You compare a nation that desperately not want to join so-called Chinese union to Kashmir. Let me break the logic for you so that you can see your fallacy!
> 
> # J&K is governed by India via democratic elections. Taiwan has democratic elections but they are not in Chinese-senate.
> # Taiwan desperately arming itself to fend off China by having state-of-art weapons and having US warships on its soil.
> # Taiwan used to have permanent seat until China was reseated during the Coldwar for fulfilling US interests. (compare that India and Kashmir  )
> # Kashmir people can live anywhere in India, Chinese will need a visa to go to Taiwan.
> 
> I think it would beneficial to read more news and understand what is going in the world other than reading Asia times.
> 
> Now, regarding your argument for Tibet people living in India. India allows refugees - that is the state policy. These monks are living in India with no consequence to China. There are no terrorists with them that explode(!)
> 
> So as a Indian refugee, they have rights to move anywhere in the country. India is governed by constitution and every individual is empowered with those rights. India does not need China to tell us how run our country. I am sure more than a billion people concur.
> 
> Free thought is exercised in India. If China has difficulty working with free media, it should not consider other states will follow as it works with its media. How pathetic you guys are banned watching even youtube - God forbid you know what is really happening in your own country.



Let me tell you the different between TRUTH and FICTION;

Your post= FICTION.

The article below= TRUTH.

India can't match China's military force: Navy Chief

New Delhi: Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Sureesh Mehta has set off a storm by saying India cannot match China military force. Is it a warning from India's military that the government needs to hear? 


"In military terms, both conventional and non-conventional, we neither have the capability nor the intention to match China force for force," said Admiral Sureesh Mehta.


For a nuclear-armed military representing the interests of a billion-plus people, the lack of confidence is quite striking. India's military leadership has made a stunning confession that New Delhi doesn't have the stomach for a fight, if push came to shove on the disputed Sino-Indian boundary.


"Whether in terms of GDP, defence spend or any other parameter, the gap between the two is too wide to bridge and is getting wider by the day," he said.


Is Mehta expressing frustration at the slow pace of India's military modernisation? While India spends about $30 billion annually on defence, China spends at least thrice as much, although some estimates go up to $ 200 billion. 


Its military is twice as large as India and its nuclear arsenal far well proven. 

P.S. Its always nice to live in your sweet wet dream, enjoy !!


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## sathruvinasakh

MOD should be providing an AXE to every Indian women.Atleast in Kashmir region.Terrorists will be pissing in their pants........lol


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## EjazR

rajeev said:


> So, if you settle on that thinking, then we can talk of today's notion of nation.
> 
> #1 India was formed a secular democratic state whereas, Pakistan was the one that wanted an Islamic Republic. So, just because Kashmir had Muslim majority cannot in its own make Kashmiris aligning with Pakistan.
> 
> #2 Pakistani army attacked Kashmir , not India. The Kashmiri people informed the King to protect them from invaders (not liberators)
> 
> *#3 Kashmiri King signed agreement with India to join India. Only, then India joined the war.*
> 
> #4 In 1965, Pakistani army thought of liberating (?) Kashmir. And Kashmiri people informed Indian government of actions and India fought back. This is ridiculous as the so-called liberators are caught by the same people who Pakistani army wanted to liberate.
> 
> #5 In 1971, LOAC was defined and the agreement was signed by Pakistan and India and all future talks will be bilateral.
> 
> 
> So a country which does not gets its way either by people's backing (in Kashmir), by armed aggression (1965 war) and by politically (in 1971), they turned to the last attempt - by sending terrorists into the country.
> 
> I think China should be proud of this country because very soon the same people are planning to send terrorists to China to liberate (?) Uljmers. Probably, then China will see it.
> 
> There is a saying in India - wise sees things before it happens, the learned sees things when it happens and less intelligent people cannot see even after it happens.



You forgot to add that Sheikh Abdulla was the most popular leader in J&K at that time and he was against Muslim League policies and led a secular National Conference party. It was he who truly represented the vast majority of people of J&K and not the King although his ascension was necessary from the legal point of view


Excerpts from Sheikh Abdullah's Opening Address to the J&K Constituent Assembly, 5 November 1951



> Our movement to freedom has been connected against the background of this same old struggle. We stood for the brotherhood of men of all creeds and strengthened our union on the basis of common work and sacrifice .Against us were ranged the force of religious bigotry centred in the Muslim league and its satellites, and the Hindu communalists from within and without the State. Ranged against us ,and often in alliance with communalism were the forces of the autocratic States ,backup on the Paramount Power, and on the other, by the rich landowners and other beneficiaries of Court patronage.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Stick to the topic please.*


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

EjazR said:


> You forgot to add that Sheikh Abdulla was the most popular leader in J&K at that time and he was against Muslim League policies and led a secular National Conference party. It was he who truly represented the vast majority of people of J&K and not the King although his ascension was necessary from the legal point of view
> 
> 
> Excerpts from Sheikh Abdullah's Opening Address to the J&K Constituent Assembly, 5 November 1951



You cannot argue that just because you believe a particular leader was popular, that that satisfies the condition of plebiscite or is illustrative of the sentiment of Kashmiris on a particular issue.

Political leaders tend to be popular with different people for different reasons - social programs, ideological reasons, economic policies, vision for the future etc. But popularity as a political figure does not automatically imply widespread support for a specific issue (becoming part of India or Pakistan) amongst the populace.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## rajeev

grey boy 2 said:


> Let me tell you the different between TRUTH and FICTION;
> 
> Your post= FICTION.
> 
> The article below= TRUTH.
> 
> India can't match China's military force: Navy Chief
> 
> Its military is twice as large as India and its nuclear arsenal far well proven.
> 
> P.S. Its always nice to live in your sweet wet dream, enjoy !!



Thanks sir, I have read this some time back. 

When I replied you, you hardly had any answers for my two posts. When you choke up, you throw another ball. You need to learn to argue and not write "YOU=FICTION, I = TRUTH". This does not make much sense.

Now, lets attempt a third time 

When ex-Indian defence minister Geoge Fernades claimed that India needs nuclear bomb because of Chinese threat, you guys said what threat? Such statements are not welcome. This would make us an enemy.

Now when India is buying bulk amount of arms saying that we are too small for China, you say we are huge. We are superpower.

China has quantity, India has quality in all departments of warfare except nuclear and tactical missile technology. In all other departments, Indians are welcomed to get best quality products. If you have read the most recent news - Australia wants to join India-US war games. Do you think Indians benefit from that?

India has a political system that enables it to create politicians who however, corrupt has the capacity to eek out favorable terms. Did you happen to notice nuclear deal from US, or number of major countries who are in favor of UNSC permanent seat - no one other than China had any real objection.

I think it is not in dispute China has more power than India and if India attempts to invade China, it will lose. But India has much large force to assault an incoming Chinese force. 

The ball is in China's court to decide what kind of relationship it wants from India. At this point in time, we are easily favored over China by most major countries. 

In International geo-politics, there are no permanent friends or permanent enemies, only permanent interets. India has so far not offended Chinese interests, but you got to realize India has opportunities. When China supplies arms to India's enemies, India can also do other things!


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## sathruvinasakh

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> There are two ways to settle a dispute . One is through Peacefull and mutually benificial give and take Diplomacy . The other is to engage in a never ending bloody WAR .
> Now its up to the Indians to Decide .
> If the Kashmir Dispute is peacefully Resolved then the whole south asian reagion would make a giant leap forward towards progress ,stability and Development.
> 
> Just think of the Economic benifit which can surely pay off any loss . Relations could be strengthened which may result in boosting the trade .
> 
> If you look the other way it would be huge benifit if the Kashmir issue is resolved .
> 
> And pls i request some of my forum members to try not to fuel destructive ideas of going to War with India. Practically No one can do this . So instead of chest beating wasting your minds upon point scoring please try to contribute towards the Logical , Peaceful and Diplomatic solutions for the Kashmir Dispute. Its Resolution is must if both Pakistan and India want to excel and Develop .



^^^^
Hey,
is it the first time ever in my whole life----seing a pakistani with non-voilence attitude?
Keep it up.everything pays off.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

EjazR said:


> AM the point is that Pakistan herself can invest in the part of Kashmir in its area of control and build schools hospitals e.t.c. since its a bilaterla issue between India and Pakistan. But when a foreign country (that illegaly occupies parts of Gilgit Baltistan and Ladakh) does the same, its compeltely different an apparently unacceptable



Why is it unacceptable if a foreign nation invests? At the end of the day it is the people of the region that benefit, whether the investment is by the entity administering the disputed territory or a foreign partner. 

The status of the disputed territory is not changed by any such investment, which is the only point on which a valid objection could be entertained internationally - and even on that count any Indian protest would be hypocritical given that India has annexed internationally recognized disputed territory through its constitution, in violation of the international framework on Kashmir ala the UNSC resolutions.

So India really has no legs to stand on in terms of being taken seriously in this 'protest'.

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## grey boy 2

sathruvinasakh said:


> You really dont need navy chief to say that .Any Indian will agree on that word.We are behind china in terms of quantitative edge.Be it army strength of 2.3 million or airforce strenght of 1200 aircraft or even the 280 naval vessels.the reason for this is simple.India being ruled by democratically elected people while china is not.Hence you cant spend your money on defence as like your adversary.more over india is runs low on cash unlike its counterpart.
> And a wish to reach the peak with no energy is simply a wet dream.And neither India not its establishment dream of such.They are more or less happy in maintaining the current strengths with qualitative edge.
> At the end of the day,its not numbers that matters,Its the quality and will which matters.
> Peace .



So, whats you mean ? your leaders were all liars ?

Or you feel too ashame to swallow the truth ?

Please don't preach your caste-democracy !

By the way, no need to argue with me, i didn't wrote the article.

At the end of the day, you have to give credit to your GOI to have

the courage to "ask" China to stay out of Azad Kashmir.


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## rajeev

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> You cannot argue that just because you believe a particular leader was popular, that that satisfies the condition of plebiscite or is illustrative of the sentiment of Kashmiris on a particular issue.
> 
> Political leaders tend to be popular with different people for different reasons - social programs, ideological reasons, economic policies, vision for the future etc. But popularity as a political figure does not automatically imply widespread support for a specific issue (becoming part of India or Pakistan) amongst the populace.



I agree with you Agnostic Muslim. My personal opinion is that India is doing this posturing to show what China did to India few days back. 

I also hope Kashmir gets resolved one day for betterment for all of us and we all will have the opportunity to grow and atleast get closer to our truer potential. So many people in our part of the world does not have the opportunities that luckily blessed to us.

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## sathruvinasakh

grey boy 2 said:


> So, whats you mean ? your leaders were all liars ?
> 
> Or you feel too ashame to swallow the truth ?
> 
> Please don't preach your caste-democracy !
> 
> By the way, no need to argue with me, i didn't wrote the article.
> 
> At the end of the day, you have to give credit to your GOI to have
> 
> the courage to "ask" China to stay out of Azad Kashmir.


So far India didnt took stance agaist china is not because GOI is lacking balls.It is because untill the past year GOI was formed with coalition of other communist parties along with congress.with communists out of the way,there is nothing left in the way of current GOI.be it taking a hard stance against chinese incursions or chinese help in ***.

But on the reality end you people are forgetting one thing.If the US didnt have/had interfere during the 62 war India would have unleashed the IAF power along with foot soldiers on the ground and with further reinforcements coming in a day.the end of the 62 war would have been a bitter taste to invading chinese.
India following the words of US tasted the bitterness itself.

and another reality is that India will never ever invade China nor even contemplate that.Cause the only reason is ,it is not in Indian interests.So chinese can be holed safe in their bunkers untill the end of the world.but on contrary China wont follow the same suite.It will invade India or atleast try to do that.And the result of the war will be a life line to the CPC. 

China can do and play all kind of ball games only untill 2014.After that it will be busy finding the way to stop the domestic fires.
Peace.


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## oceanx

rajeev said:


> Respectfully sir, I disagree.
> 
> Taiwan-to-Kashmir - isnt that comical? ...
> 
> # J&K is governed by India via democratic elections. ...
> # Taiwan desperately arming itself to fend off China by having state-of-art weapons and having US warships on its soil.
> 
> Now, regarding your argument for Tibet people living in India.
> 
> Free thought is exercised in India...



 I am lost and will you help me find my way, my good SIR? 

Did I say people in Taiwan were clamouring to "re-unite"? No, I simply implied that it is an international issue, regardless how PRC sees it internally.

And irrespective of how you "democracy" this and "election that", Tibet is an internal issue just as Khalistan or Balochistan is. And by no means am I in agreement with how PRC handled this particular issue from start to finish.

For all that free thought of Bharat - plus supersized "free thought" of USA, one would think Sir Raj would appreciate logic ...

And back to your loincloth Kashmiri "democracy", SIR. There is more to democracy than pro-forma elections "fixed" by plutocrats just as there is more to virginity than an intact hymen stitched up by a pimp.

BTW, give anyone half a million soldiers armed to the teeth and some "electronic" voting boxes, and throw in some Rupees or $, and s/he'll have you a list of approved candidates with 70% turn-out just as well.

Never mind Asia Times - btw, did I quote it (see why I am lost)? Let me repeat it to you: Kashmir is an international issue and a Plebiscite with an independence option is the way to go - eventually.

For the time being, perhaps a cooling off of the issue is most desirable - analogous to the situation across Taiwan Straight.

BTW, you do not know my personal stance regarding Taiwan and I will not veer off topic just for you - not after explicit warnings from mods.

Like it or not, Azad Kashmir is akin to India's Jammu.

And _disputed_ Kashmir is internationally unsettled.

P.S., I registered your "water war" - Bharat's hands on this are blacker than anybody else's in the neighbourhood. But I won't indulge in another off-topic side track.


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## rajeev

oceanx said:


> I am lost and will you help me find my way, my good SIR?
> 
> Did I say people in Taiwan were clamouring to "re-unite"? No, I simply implied that it is an international issue, regardless how PRC sees it internally.



So you do accept Taiwan (a nation) cant be compared to Kashmir (state)?



oceanx said:


> And irrespective of how you "democracy" this and "election that", Tibet is an internal issue just as Khalistan or Balochistan is. And by no means am I in agreement with how PRC handled this particular issue from start to finish.



You are comparing Khalistan to Tibet. You are getting too silly. I hope you know about so many state-sponsored curtails on Tibetans. Khalistan?? where does the borders start? How many people claim it - i mean real people who are fighting for it?



oceanx said:


> For all that free thought of Bharat - plus supersized "free thought" of USA, one would think Sir Raj would appreciate logic ...
> 
> And back to your loincloth Kashmiri "democracy", SIR. There is more to democracy than pro-forma elections "fixed" by plutocrats just as there is more to virginity than an intact hymen stitched up by a pimp.
> 
> BTW, give anyone half a million soldiers armed to the teeth and some "electronic" voting boxes, and throw in some Rupees or $, and s/he'll have you a list of approved candidates with 70&#37; turn-out just as well.



Excuse me for understanding that you have been in Canada and know what democracy is. You got to have sources to back up your claim that Indian democracy is sham. Apparently, you are the only who is claiming so. India paid people to come to vote? What else are you going to say now? Indian RAW is running the govt. Be credible in what you are saying?



oceanx said:


> Never mind Asia Times - btw, did I quote it (see why I am lost)? Let me repeat it to you: Kashmir is an international issue and a Plebiscite with an independence option is the way to go - eventually.
> 
> For the time being, perhaps a cooling off of the issue is most desirable - analogous to the situation across Taiwan Straight.



Kashmir is a political issue whereas Taiwan is a international issue. Kashmir is already divided among India, Pakistan and China. Taiwan is a country. I cannot see any kind of comparison. Taiwan has its own army, navy, airforce with sole intention of remaining indepent. Kashmir can be compared more to Tibet. Just like Kashmir, Tibet is occupied by China whereas monks dont want them there. And unlike Kashmir, where Kashmiris assists India for protecting them like in 1965 and in Kargil and during recent Chinese intrusion who report back to Indians, Tibetan monks dont want a piece of China.



oceanx said:


> BTW, you do not know my personal stance regarding Taiwan and I will not veer off topic just for you - not after explicit warnings from mods.
> 
> Like it or not, Azad Kashmir is akin to India's Jammu.
> 
> And _disputed_ Kashmir is internationally unsettled.
> 
> P.S., I registered your "water war" - Bharat's hands on this are blacker than anybody else's in the neighbourhood. But I won't indulge in another off-topic side track.



I dont think any reasonable Indian would say Kashmir is politically settled and that is why posturing is going on between India and Pakistan. It is only a matter of time when it will be settled. India wants to find right moment to get maximum advantage and Pakistan is doing the same thing.


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## oceanx

rajeev said:


> I dont think any reasonable Indian would say Kashmir is politically settled and that is why posturing is going on between India and Pakistan. It is only a matter of time when it will be settled. India wants to find right moment to get maximum advantage and Pakistan is doing the same thing.




I will end my contentions on this sentiment with which I can agree.


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## vsdoc

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The difference between the Indian and Pakistani official positions, given that neither support independence, is that the Pakistani position in based on the right of the Kashmiri people to determine their destiny out of the two options provided, whereas the Indian position is to refuse the Kashmiris the 'freedom' to do so, and impose Indian rule through force.



And how did Pakistan occupy the part of Kashmir it does today, way back in 1947? Peacefully ..... winning the hearts and minds of the Kashmiris? Its easy to point fingers, conveniently shutting your eyes to those pointing back at you. 



> "Religiously brainwashed slumber" has nothing to do here, other than to assuage Indian sentiments and help define the separatist sentiment in a form that Indians can easily demonize. Sort of how the West would (and to some extent still does) brand anything counter to their perceived positions/interests as 'Commie's/Communism'.



Sorry, but that's a very simplistic and dare I say self-serving way of looking at this and dismissing it as a "separatist" movement, as opposed to what it has always been ..... an attempt at hostile land grab.

And based on what? What moral right does pakistan have to kashmir? What have you based your demands for Kashmir on all these 6 decades? Self referendum and Independence? Or Islamic majority = Pakistan?

If pakistan was so holier than thou and clean of heart, then why have they not given an Independent nation status to the part of Kashmir they hold and have held for 62 years?

Forget that, you go around distributing land (and the people who live there - whom you would have us and the world believe that you champion) of an "Independent Nation" to a third nation (read China)?

Who gave you the right to do that?

And then we have to hear about Independence wet dreams from Kashmiri separatists and big-hearted selfless Pakistanis ........

Cheers, Doc


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## jawadqamar

*India fuming at Pakistani Newspaper for leaking story on Army prostitutes
*

India is fuming because a Pakistani newspaper broke the news that the Indian military has finalized plans to deploy a unit of women sex providers in occupied Kashmir, where figures of suicides and mental problems among Indian soldiers deployed in a hostile territory have shot through the rooftop. This time, Pakistani diplomats in the Pakistan High Commission in New Delhi may receive an unusual Indian protest. So far the Indians have been ISI-phobic, seeing the hands of Pakistans feared premier counterespionage service in everything that went wrong in India. Now the diplomats will be receiving a letter of protest against an independent Pakistani newspaper.

For the first time in the 62-year tumultuous relationship between Pakistan and India, New Delhi wants to lodge a complaint with Islamabad against a Pakistani newspaper, The Daily Mail.

On Sept. 8th, 2009, The Daily Mail ran a story filed by the papers New Delhi correspondent Christina Palmer, titled Indian Army To Deploy Prostitutes As A Women Battalion In Held Kashmir.

The PakNationalists, PakAlert, PKKH, PakistanFirst and dozens of other Pakistani and international online news portals, picked it up.

Ms. Palmers story was based on a statement issued by the Inspector General of Border Security Force Himmat Singh. The story basically said that the Indian military was concerned about the rising incidents of suicides among Indian soldiers deployed in Indian-occupied Kashmir, a territory where Kashmiris are fighting India for the right to determine whether they want to be independent or join Pakistan.

A high level Indian military delegation went to Moscow to study the Russian experience in dealing with such problems. Like India, the former Soviet Union military was spread thin across a large territory, including distant and difficult regions.

Mr. Singh confirmed that a batch of 178 female soldiers was being sent to Northern Command where they would be deployed along with Indo-Pak border to check the border violations by women, working in the field. Mr. Singh further stated that these women were not fully trained for operational military duties however in the next phase, after further training, they would be given the duties of operational Border security. Mr. Singh refused to admit that these female soldiers were actually prostitutes and were being dispatched to the valley as undercover sex workers. When contacted, Rohit Sharma, a senior defence analyst here in New Delhi, said that the move was a creative step by Indian army leadership as it would boost the medical and mental health of the soldiers. Some departments of the Indian government were permitted to contact licensed brothels in several Indian cities to explore the possibility of recruiting candidates.

But the Indian reaction to this story was unexpected.

According to an Indian newspaper, the Mid-Day, an official of the Indian Ministry of External Affairs retorted by saying what he or she thought is a hit below the belt for Pakistan: We do not have a Talibanised society like Pakistans. In India, women have very successful military careers.

Never mind that Pakistan has a large womens police force deployed in all the major cities of the country, in addition to active duty women officers in the Army and the Pakistan Air Force.

The Indian news portal Mid-Day.com confirmed that India has decided to lodge an official complaint against the wrongful news reports and that the order to lodge a complaint has come directly from the office of Union Home Minister P Chidambaram.

The Indian portal quoted an unnamed Indian diplomat as saying, Such news can tarnish the image of our forces. So far, it was a conscious decision by the government not to deploy women troops on the border. But we want total success of this experiment and we need to tell the Pakistanis to behave.

Several foreign reporters based in the Indian capital reported receiving calls from Indian government and intelligence officers asking where to find Christina Palmer.

Ms. Palmer, who will be appearing on Geo Networks weekly show TSS with Ahmed Quraishi soon, is a foreign journalist who lives with her Indian husband. According to Indian laws, you have to be a Pakistani citizen legally residing in India or an Indian journalist to work as a correspondent for a Pakistani newspaper. Non-Indian journalists cannot represent Pakistani media in India. For this reason, Ms. Palmer writes under an assumed name. But to prove that she is real, Ms. Palmer is appearing through telephone from New Delhi on a Pakistani television talk show.

In her report, Ms. Palmer wrote on Oct. 6: In a unique and unprecedented move, Indias Minister for Home Affairs Mr. P. Chidambaram has threatened the Islamabad-based Pakistani newspaper The Daily Mail over one of the investigative reports by the Daily regarding first female troops of Indian Army that have been deployed in the Held Kashmir. According to the reports appearing here in local Indian media as well as international media, the Home Affairs Minister has ordered his officials to lodge an official complaint with Pakistans High Commission in New Delhi to sort out The Daily Mail.

The papers Editor-in-Chief Makhdoom Babar defended his newspapers credibility in a special editorial: Mr. Chidambarams action has shocked the entire global media community as it is the first move of its kind in which a top minister of a country has threatened an independent newspaper of another country of lodging a complaint against it and seeking strong action, there this move of Indias MHA has exposed the true face of so-called secular India and the belief of Indian leadership in freedom of press and freedom of expression. In the 62 years of the history of Pak-India relations, The Daily Mail is the first ever victim of this kind of aggression from the Indian government.


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## Nemesis

Why is this BS thread still active?


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## duhastmish

Jana said:


> sentimental ho gaya ray



pffft , but not even 10% of senti as you. 

i am not a hater, the only kind i hate are the haters themselves.

some time i wonder if i post a reply to you - you might shoot me through a internet ak-47. lol 

because you get really lost while replying sometimes. you really hate india ay. 

not much wrong - if one dont like india as a state but dont hate indians. but who am i to suggest. i might get bombed tonight for posting this reply to you.


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## ironman

Another Chinese propaganda..  Where did these so called Chinese spokesman when President of India visited AP in 2/4/2009.




*President offering prayer during her visit at Tawang Monastery​*


*President laying wreath at war memorial, Tawang​*


*Yak and lion dance greeting Her Excellency during her arrival at Tawang​*


*President dressed in traditional Monpa attire interacting with the jawans at Tawang​*
Saw somebody asked for Tawang...

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## oct605032048

an accomplished fact should be accepted and india's require is as stupid and useless as chinese diplomatic protest on your president's visit to tawang.


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

> There's tons of them pretending to be Americans on this forum, a couple hide behind the British flag, and this idiot pretends to be French.




looser......


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## jarnee

Jana said:


> when are you doing that if at all you have guts to do that



Already done .. Indian PM has told China that no more Business Visa for Chinese and neither Work permits for semi skilled labor. My govt thinks and acts like i think. This is the beauty of electing the right people in power.

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## WarProfessor

jarnee said:


> Already done .. Indian PM has told China that no more Business Visa for Chinese and neither Work permits for semi skilled labor. My govt thinks and acts like i think. This is the beauty of electing the right people in power.



Then I guess China has no more alternative but issuing Indian Visa by themselves. To our soldiers, that is.

"Just as I thought I was out, China pulled me back in."


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## jarnee

WarProfessor said:


> Then I guess China has no more alternative but issuing Indian Visa by themselves. To our soldiers, that is.
> 
> "Just as I thought I was out, China pulled me back in."



So China wants a War..I dont think .. "War professor" guess its you who want it more then any in China, rite eh!! ??


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## WarProfessor

jarnee said:


> So China wants a War..I dont think .. "War professor" guess its you who want it more then any in China, rite eh!! ??



No. I belong to the group in China who believes national territory is not open for negotiation, not an inch. I think India has similar concept in your constitution.


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## Spring Onion

hey 8 pages goneby i thought by now China would have been out of Azad Kashmir development  why dont you listen to India


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## arihant

WarProfessor said:


> No. I belong to the group in China who believes national territory is not open for negotiation, not an inch. I think India has similar concept in your constitution.



Understand, middle path should be used. We have more politician then our constitution. If they tried to negotiate anything, opposite party will kill him. That is not the case of china. Although same applies to Pakistan.


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## sathruvinasakh

jarnee said:


> So China wants a War..I dont think .. "War professor" guess its you who want it more then any in China, rite eh!! ??


If its a war with democratic India that China wants to keep CCP alive for another decade,they are most welcomed.

This time we neither hear americans words not keep ourself naive.
time to pull up the sleves if China wants a real middle yellow river on its landmass again.
I will do my best to bring the prophecy back to China again.I swear.

*A WAR IS MUCH MUCH BETTER THAN HUMILIATION*


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## WarProfessor

sathruvinasakh said:


> *A WAR IS MUCH MUCH BETTER THAN HUMILIATION*



Fine. It 1962 repeats itself, we will kill all Indian POWs instead of treating them humanly. Also, if we can't destroy all your weapons you used against us, we will pull them back to China, instead of returning it to you rise and shine. Oh, one more thing, instead of a unilateral ceasefire and pullback, we should storm new-dehli instead. Why not? it would be just as natural as the British to came and ruled. No?

We have repeatedly warned you not to start it, and it's your own forward policy to blame. You got problems, you blame yourself. Don't take it out to China.

By neglecting Chinese propaganda of brotherhood with India, you turned your guns first at us as an enemy.

You don't deserve to be just humiliated. You should be forever deeply humiliated by Chinese. Then you would say, hah, no big deal, it's only life. The Chinese just came and ruled.

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## deckingraj

> Fine. It 1962 repeats itself, we will kill all Indian POWs instead of treating them humanly. Also, if we can't destroy all your weapons you used against us, we will pull them back to China, instead of returning it to you rise and shine. Oh, one more thing, instead of a unilateral ceasefire and pullback, we should storm new-dehli instead. Why not? it would be just as natural as the British to came and ruled. No?
> 
> We have repeatedly warned you not to start it, and it's your own forward policy to blame. You got problems, you blame yourself. Don't take it out to China.
> 
> By neglecting Chinese propaganda of brotherhood with India, you turned your guns first at us as an enemy.
> 
> You don't deserve to be just humiliated. You should be forever deeply humiliated by Chinese. Then you would say, hah, no big deal, it's only life. The Chinese just came and ruled.




Relax...first of all no war is happening...Sane people on both sides want to progress and become undisputed economic powers of world....So they wont let it happen... as far as 1962 repeat is concerned i am sure you didnt mean it...because if you do then you are definitely underestimating the indian forces might....We might not be well-equipped to attack you but when it comes to defence..thats a different story boy

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## EjazR

Hindus and Muslims join hands to renovate a temple in Kashmir

Srinagar, Oct.16 - ANI: A group of Kashmiri Hindus and local Muslims have set an example of brotherhood and communal harmony by coming together to renovate an abandoned temple in Srinagar city.

Shiv Ji Temple Welfare Committee (STWC) has taken the initiative to ensure renovation of the abandoned Bod Mandir (big temple) in Rainawari area with the help and support of local Muslim residents.

The renovation work commenced a month ago and the local Muslims are engaged in the renovation of the temples two rooms and bathroom in the first phase.

Various drawing or paintings of Lord Shiva in the temple looked ruined, as the cement of some of the walls had come off due to the temple remaining abandoned for a long time.

According to some people, militant had burnt down the temple in the early 90s after the majority of Kashmiri Pandits were forced to leave the Kashmir valley.

The local Muslim residents are enthusiastic to contribute towards the renovation of the temple and hope that the same old traditions of communal harmony will return to the area as soon as the temple is reopened for the devotees.

"We will definitely help them out. What is the harm in helping them' They are like our brothers and like our children. They are not neighbours here.They belong to this region only so we will help them. Earlier also we used to eat together, eat from the same plate I don't know what went wrong with the environment here. It seems some bad time had come upon us," said Mohammad Aslam, a local Muslim.

Local Muslims have offered their complete support in temples restoration.

"Since morning about 100 people have come here to help. We were happy as they saw and asked us to restore this temple. They said that this should be restored, as it is a temple for everyone. It is not a matter of any religion. This is God's gift they said. People from nearby areas are very happy and keep coming here and want the temple to be restored soon. They also offer their complete support and help. Some of them are working also with us, that too for free," said Gulam Hassan, another local Muslim.

Thousands of Kashmiri Hindus had to flee the Kashmir valley due to rise of militancy in 1989. Many temples were set ablaze by the insurgents during early nineties.

According to the National Human Rights Commission, about 300,000 Kashmiri Pandits, as the Hindus are called in Kashmir, have been forced to leave Kashmir because of violence in the region.

While some Kashmiri Hindus have made their way to Delhi, the national capital, and other parts of the country, about 200,000 bitter and disillusioned Pandits are still languishing in Jammu.


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## garibnawaz

I hope they show the same sanity in resolving Amarnath Land Row.

GB

Also a good read 

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/life/2003/12/22/stories/2003122200040400.htm


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## sathruvinasakh

WarProfessor said:


> Fine. It 1962 repeats itself, we will kill all Indian POWs instead of treating them humanly. Also, if we can't destroy all your weapons you used against us, we will pull them back to China, instead of returning it to you rise and shine. Oh, one more thing, instead of a unilateral ceasefire and pullback, we should storm new-dehli instead. Why not? it would be just as natural as the British to came and ruled. No?
> 
> We have repeatedly warned you not to start it, and it's your own forward policy to blame. You got problems, you blame yourself. Don't take it out to China.
> 
> By neglecting Chinese propaganda of brotherhood with India, you turned your guns first at us as an enemy.
> 
> You don't deserve to be just humiliated. You should be forever deeply humiliated by Chinese. Then you would say, hah, no big deal, it's only life. The Chinese just came and ruled.



Thats an exact match.

If you wanna play cricket you gotta have to play with head strong Australians and if you wanna play chess that has to be with Russians.

As far as I am concerned If India wants to show its strength it has to be China either its a win or loose.

I personally dont advocate war which is of mutual destruction .But if we were left with no alternative, war is the only way of survival.

And you people repeatedly failed to notice one point is,

CCP wages war not chinese against the foreign countries while Indians take the revenge not the congress /bjp or any freakish party.

the bottom tells you all.Measure your strengths and compare them to that of CCP and Indians.

Peace.


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## Iggy

aimarraul said:


> seiko said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be so modest&#65292;india govt is supporting tibet separatists for decades&#65292;your govt even arm those ten thousand separatists in india
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me how many bombs are exploding in TIbet??If we arm the Tibetans as you claimed and send the to Tibet then China should have more than AP to worry about..
Click to expand...


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## sathruvinasakh

Looks like fellow Chinese members are confused.They failed to get the actual point that the so called 10,000+ tibetans are part of the armies special brigade but not the separatists.

As I pointed in my earlier post that India is ready to offer living on this motherland if one asks for living.Those refuges did the same and India offered .

If the Chinese members are bothering that instead of sending them back to Tibet with arms why India kept them ? If thats the case then we will pass a resolution to send back all the armed tibetans back to their country.Chinese might be happy then.
they felt bored of having no suicide bombing or blasts either inside Tibet or China.They can have fun with these sent back refuges.


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## Iggy

Jana said:


> hey 8 pages goneby i thought by now China would have been out of Azad Kashmir development  why dont you listen to India



Hundreds of pages gone by China claiming AP is theirs..still its a part of India..We dont listen to them..Why the heck should they listen to us


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## UnitedPak

After all the Indian government cant even grant Kashmiri Muslims the right to vote their own leaders. But why does this matter when progress can be measured by how many Hindu temples you can cram into Muslim lands.

When will "Hindus and Muslims join hands" to end atrocities against Kashmiri Muslims at the hands of Indian troops? Its ridiculous to claim that pleasing a tiny minority Hindu population of the region is a sign of justice and progress. If anything this solidifies the view that Kashmiri Muslims are considered an obstacle to be overcome in order to introduce Hinduism into Kashmir.



garibnawaz said:


> I hope they show the same sanity in resolving Amarnath Land Row.



confirms my point.

Sanity should only be used to resolve the 'major' issues that have plagued Kashmir for decades. Hindu temples, what else?


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## sathruvinasakh

UnitedPak said:


> After all the Indian government cant even grant Kashmiri Muslims the right to vote their own leaders. But why does this matter when progress can be measured by how many Hindu temples you can cram into Muslim lands.
> 
> When will "Hindus and Muslims join hands" to end atrocities against Kashmiri Muslims at the hands of Indian troops? Its ridiculous to claim that pleasing a tiny minority Hindu population of the region is a sign of justice and progress. If anything this solidifies the view that Kashmiri Muslims are considered an obstacle to be overcome in order to introduce Hinduism into Kashmir.
> 
> 
> 
> confirms my point.
> 
> Sanity should only be used to resolve the 'major' issues that have plagued Kashmir for decades. Hindu temples, what else?



everything will be done in due course.
History repeats.Its a known fact.
Every full moon repeats and every eclipse repeats.
the Golden Age aka Bharatavarsha will be formed slowly but steadily. *Then everything will be brotherhood.*


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## Panditji

UnitedPak said:


> After all the Indian government cant even grant Kashmiri Muslims the right to vote their own leaders.


Sez who? The current government in J&K is a democratically elected government. The only part of Kashmir that does not get this luxury is called P o K.



> But why does this matter when progress can be measured by how many Hindu temples you can cram into Muslim lands.


I would not have mentioned this, but this is the same "Muslim land" which was Hindu once, and how else would it have got converted to Muslim land? By cramming mosques into it. Where else do you find an Abdul Ghani *BHAT* Did he take that last name for amusement? They are all converts, this generation or 10-20 generations earlier. That's all the difference there is.


> When will "Hindus and Muslims join hands" to end atrocities against Kashmiri Muslims at the hands of Indian troops?


Indian troops will leave the state alone as soon as you stop pumping terrorists in. They vacated Punjab long ago, remember?


> Its ridiculous to claim that pleasing a tiny minority Hindu population of the region is a sign of justice and progress.


You will not understand that. 

In India, elsewhere, Muslims are a minority too. and pleasing them is a serious business, and also a sign of justice and progress.


> If anything this solidifies the view that Kashmiri Muslims are considered an obstacle to be overcome in order to introduce Hinduism into Kashmir.


What rubbish are you talking about - It is just a symbolic gesture to bring back the Kashmiri Pundit community that was brutalized by the goons Pakistan sent, and millions are languishing in Jammu and Delhi, leading a life of a refugee in their own country. This kind of remarks generate that stereotype in India that Pakistanis are heartless brutes.



> Sanity should only be used to resolve the 'major' issues that have plagued Kashmir for decades. Hindu temples, what else?


Cynicism is cheap, but also useless. I request you stay away.


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## navtrek

Hi guys this thread is a testament of good relations Btw Hindus and Muslims in India abt communal harmony. But i do also agree that there are a few black spots too in our communal harmony.

So lets stick to the thread and lets not make this a thread on Your Kashmir and my Kashmir or India v/s Pakistan.


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## aditiwari007

UnitedPak said:


> After all the Indian government cant even grant Kashmiri Muslims the right to vote their own leaders. But why does this matter when progress can be measured by how many Hindu temples you can cram into Muslim lands.
> 
> When will "Hindus and Muslims join hands" to end atrocities against Kashmiri Muslims at the hands of Indian troops? Its ridiculous to claim that pleasing a tiny minority Hindu population of the region is a sign of justice and progress. If anything this solidifies the view that Kashmiri Muslims are considered an obstacle to be overcome in order to introduce Hinduism into Kashmir.
> 
> 
> 
> confirms my point.
> 
> Sanity should only be used to resolve the 'major' issues that have plagued Kashmir for decades. Hindu temples, what else?


Here, people build temples and mosques on Indian land which they call their "motherland" and not on Hindu or Muslim land. You wont understand it you narrow minded and a fanatic muslim. I think first you should broaden your thinking like Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan also known as "Frontier Gandhi" and then talk of temples and mosques.
Look here, A guy from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan talking of secularism.


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## aditiwari007

mystic warrior said:


> Really, its an artificial satellite? Oh no....how will Indian astrologers make a living schmoozing people now?


Just like pakistani people and army make it from US aid!!


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## aditiwari007

Actually according to China, the whole world will be its property.
Arunachal is its property bcoz long, long ago, it belonged to Tibet, which China has unjustfully occupied.
Tommorow, it will put claims on Vietnam, Russia bcoz they all are communists.
Then they will put claims on most of the europe bcoz "long ago" Catherine, the great of Russia had captured many parts of it.
Next comes African nations bcoz "once" ago they were colonized by europeans.
And dont forget US bcoz US citizens are actually european immigrants!!!

Thank god, if martians ever existed, they died long ago before seeing the communist republic of china


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## aditiwari007

WarProfessor said:


> Fine. It 1962 repeats itself, we will kill all Indian POWs instead of treating them humanly. Also, if we can't destroy all your weapons you used against us, we will pull them back to China, instead of returning it to you rise and shine. Oh, one more thing, instead of a unilateral ceasefire and pullback, we should storm new-dehli instead. Why not? it would be just as natural as the British to came and ruled. No?
> 
> We have repeatedly warned you not to start it, and it's your own forward policy to blame. You got problems, you blame yourself. Don't take it out to China.
> 
> By neglecting Chinese propaganda of brotherhood with India, you turned your guns first at us as an enemy.
> 
> You don't deserve to be just humiliated. You should be forever deeply humiliated by Chinese. Then you would say, hah, no big deal, it's only life. The Chinese just came and ruled.


Dont forget that this time Cuban missile crisis are not there and the world will certainly interrupt to the unjustful demands of mad communists.


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## aditiwari007

Jana said:


> well the highly trained, highly equipped Indian army hardly kills these "highly trained militants" without suffering any casualties or injury. And look at this news an armless woman killed a militant lolzz
> 
> 
> It clearly shows the men were ordinary criminals NOT freedom fighters.
> 
> 
> When will Indians learn to behave like real men stop such cheap propaganda.


There are bravery awards given to many citizens of India on 26 Jan(Republic Day) who show extraordinary courage and reply to criminals and terrorists(or your so called freedom fighters) in army's language.
I know you as a pakistani must be unaware of it bcoz u belong to a nation of cowards, the nation whose army after several defeats resorts to striking from back, commonly known as "terrorism"


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## rajeev

arihant said:


> Some more threads, where Kashmiri demonstrates against Pakistan's occupation.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...s-urge-pakistan-leave-kashmir.html#post514417
> 
> This kashmiri must be in fear that if Pakistan didn't made Azad Kashmir really azad, then there land will be in the hands of Taliban.



Dont tell that! It is apparently a RAW plotted action. The "real freedom fighers" are people who blowing themselves up so that they can kill those RAW protestors.


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## oceanx

WarProfessor said:


> No. I belong to the group in China who believes national territory is not open for negotiation, not an inch. I think India has similar concept in your constitution.



Even the CCP has _effectively_ stated publicly that everything is up for negotiation except for their status as the people's "vanguard" ...

Which is perhaps the least of all evils for the time being.

But who are you? Why aren't you joining the Uncle's Marine?

Be all you can be - Professor? Or perhaps being a keyboard warrior is the next best thing?


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## oceanx

WarProfessor said:


> Fine. It 1962 repeats itself, we will kill all Indian POWs instead of treating them humanly. ...



By all means, continue to roll in the mud with the porcine wrestler from "_Bharatavarsha_".

But "kill POWs" - even rhetorically? You "profess" something alright!  Are you sure you are not Japanese?

It's a pity that some Chimerichicken hawks take pride in making neocons blush.

One thing is for sure, however you labour at this, there will be no &#38742;&#22269;&#31070;&#31038; for you in China.

Nor in America.


----------



## Iggy

Jana said:


> As usual the Orange Indian media at work.
> 
> Just look at the details of this news story.
> 
> A woman succeeded in killing a 'militant" with an axe .
> 
> The woman and her husband snatched the weapons from "Militants"
> 
> well the highly trained, highly equipped Indian army hardly kills these "highly trained militants" without suffering any casualties or injury. And look at this news an armless woman killed a militant lolzz
> 
> 
> It clearly shows the men were ordinary criminals NOT freedom fighters.
> 
> 
> When will Indians learn to behave like real men stop such cheap propaganda.




Its ok Jana we can understand the frustrations of you because of your beloved terrorists oopsi freedom fighters getting *** kicked by the common people is Kashmir  ..


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## adrenalin

UnitedPak said:


> Those people were not "freedom fighters". They were kidnappers and terrorists (clearly evident by the fact that they tried to kidnap and kill civilians). Get your labelling right next time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are the *freedom fighters*. I guess to you they look like LeT agents?



And you are a Think Tank


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## EjazR

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> You cannot argue that just because you believe a particular leader was popular, that that satisfies the condition of plebiscite or is illustrative of the sentiment of Kashmiris on a particular issue.
> 
> Political leaders tend to be popular with different people for different reasons - social programs, ideological reasons, economic policies, vision for the future etc. But popularity as a political figure does not automatically imply widespread support for a specific issue (becoming part of India or Pakistan) amongst the populace.



Well from a purely technical perspective ofcourse it does'nt satisfy the plebescite condition. But the operative thing is the plebescite was to show the sentiment of the people in 1948 not 1989. And if Pakistani forces had vacated western part of J&K, it is most likely that the people then would have listened to what Abdulla had said which would most likely be to join India. That explains why the locals had not supported infiltrators in 65 and 71. And even today


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

EjazR said:


> Well from a purely technical perspective ofcourse it does'nt satisfy the plebescite condition. But the operative thing is the plebescite was to show the sentiment of the people in 1948 not 1989. And if Pakistani forces had vacated western part of J&K, it is most likely that the people then would have listened to what Abdulla had said which would most likely be to join India. That explains why the locals had not supported infiltrators in 65 and 71. And even today



That's completely speculative, and the plebiscite is to show the sentiments of Kashmiris, not Kashmiris from 1948-49, I fail to see where you derive that particular interpretation from. The Kashmir dispute has not ceased to be a dispute since then, and the principle behind resolving the dispute remains the same - allow the Kashmiris to decide.

And only a handful of locals needed to *** out the infiltrators, that too is not indicative of whether most Kashmiris would have chosen Pakistan or not.

KAGK was tremendously popular in NWFP, and he was pro-becoming a part of the Indian Union, yet despite his boycott, over 50&#37; of the electorate showed up at the polls, and 95-98% voted for Pakistan.


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## EjazR

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That's completely speculative, and the plebiscite is to show the sentiments of Kashmiris, not Kashmiris from 1948-49, I fail to see where you derive that particular interpretation from. The Kashmir dispute has not ceased to be a dispute since then, and the principle behind resolving the dispute remains the same - allow the Kashmiris to decide.
> 
> And only a handful of locals needed to *** out the infiltrators, that too is not indicative of whether most Kashmiris would have chosen Pakistan or not.
> 
> KAGK was tremendously popular in NWFP, and he was pro-becoming a part of the Indian Union, yet despite his boycott, over 50&#37; of the electorate showed up at the polls, and 95-98% voted for Pakistan.



AM,

The dispute hasn't ceased to be a dispute because apparently no plebescite was held, I agree. 
As I have mentioned before, even if it is in India's favor, can we seriously think that Pakistan and China will give up their parts of J&K? What about those people from Mirpur who will always be hostile to India even though in the minority. Should they be forced to join Indian Union against their will? That applies in reverse as well.

If anyone seriously thinks about it. to solve the problem today - Plebiscite can't be the best option and that is particularly keeping Kashmiri interests in mind, even many Separatists leaders realize this now.

And I'm surprised you bring in NWFP, if you do some google searching and use the British govt. documents you will know the true picture. First of all there was already an elected representative Congress govt. in power. Then why the need for Plebescite, when the elected representatives were to decide this. No plebescite was conducted in any other province then why the partiality for NWFP?

As for the vote count:

Number of voters 5,72,799
Polled votes (51%) 2,92,118
For Pakistan (*51.5%*) 2,89,244

51.5% of the allowed Voters , Voted for Pakistan. Universal franchise was not there and only 8-10% of total population voted. Moreover, Baccha Khan and Abdul Gaffar Khan ordered a boycott because the British and Nehru had already decided that NWFP will be part of Pakistan so what was the use except to create more bloodshed among their Pathan brothers. Hence following the path of non-violence he boycotted the polls although he did ask for an Independence option and was denied that.

Is this the result of a referendum that sealed the fate of Millions of Pakhtoons? With the disenfranchisement, can it even be called a majority vote? This was one of the reasons why the then Afghan govt. was so hostile to Pakistan in its early years because they felt that the referendum should have allowed the option of Pakistan or Afghanistan as well. But again because of Baccha Khan and Khudai Khitmatagar's (A group that had millions of members both muslim and non-muslim pathans) non-violence they did'nt resort to revolution and killings. Does make you wonder how different the NWFP and FATA regions would be if the non-violent developmental Baccha Khan and Abdul Gaffar Khan were allowed to govern these regions for the 30-40 years of their life after independence.

Here is the first link I could find and looked like a Pakistani source, but if you search for cabinet mission plan documents you will find the same results
History is Not a Farce: The NWFP Referendum Pak Tea House

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## SSGPA1

_The match between Victoria and Cape Cobras on Saturday got off to a delayed start after police detained an Under-22 cricketer from Jammu and Kashmir staying at the Karnataka State Cricket Association (KSCA) complex in the Chinnaswamy Stadium in connection with a suspected presence of explosives at the venue. He was released after questioning and, after the police gave the green signal, _

_Ehsan Mirza, a senior official at Jammu and Kashmir Cricket Association, however, said they had been assured by KSCA secretary Brijesh Patel there was nothing untoward but they were not happy with the incident. "Our Under-22 team reached Bangalore on Friday evening from Bhubaneswar," Mirza told Cricinfo. 

"Today morning some people - I'm not sure whether Karnataka police or any other security agency - came to the KSCA and carried out interrogations and picked two of our boys, Pervez Rasool and Mehrajudin (both from Kashmir). We spoke to Brijesh Patel and he assured us there was nothing untoward. But we are not happy with the incident. This is the height of indecency, the way our boys have been treated, and we are speaking to our president Farooq Abdullah to get the team back." 

An official from the Jammu and Kashmir U-22 team said they were "shocked". "We are going to Mumbai soon. But now this has happened. All the boys are shocked. We are just waiting for further orders."_ 

Match delayed after security alert | Cricket News | Champions League Twenty20 2009 | Cricinfo.com

*********************

One of the many reasons why Kashmiris don't want to be any part of India!!!


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## King Julien

NEW DELHI: A cricketer from the Indian-administered Kashmir was arrested on Saturday on suspicion of carrying explosives in his bag, police said.

The arrest came hours before a Champions League Twenty20 match between Cape Cobras from South Africa and Victorian Bushrangers from Australia was to be played at M. Chinnaswamy stadium in Bangalore, the capital of Karnataka state, said Shankar Bidari, police commissioner.

Pervez Rasool, 21, was in the city for a domestic cricket tournament and his team, Indian-administered Kashmirs under-22s, was staying at the stadium complex. He was taken into custody after police searched his room following an alarm set off by metal detectors suggesting the presence of explosives, Bidari said.

No explosives were found in his bag. But explosives might have been brought in that bag or might have been transferred elsewhere. There may be some residue in the bag, he said.

We have sent the bag for chemical examination, Bidari said.

The cricketer belongs to the Anantnag district of the Indian-administered of Kashmir.

We are checking his background with police there, Bidari said.

Saleem Khan, secretary of the Jammu-Kashmir Cricket Association, defended Rasool and said police have found nothing in his bag.

Indias CNN-IBN television news channel reported that Saturdays match would go ahead, starting one hour late. AP

DAWN.COM | Cricket | Kashmiri cricketer arrested over suspicion of explosives

desperate attempt SSGPA1 by providing half baked story 

BTW, its our internal matter


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## EjazR

Any investigation shoyuld have been done quitely by the Karnatak police without talking to the media. Just shows how some cops going beyond protocol can cause problems. There was no media residue found as of yet in the bag and still we see wrong reports of explosive residue. Almost all airports in India have speacial machines that indicate explosive residues, so that would have been picked up much before.

The only thing is the police got a "tipoff". Nothing wrong in questioning but there was no need to hype it up. Looks like some losers who could'nt make it into the team probably called up the police and did a hoax call. Anyways, good to know that a speedy investigation was done and the boys can go back to playing cricket
===============

*Detained Jammu and Kashmir cricketers released for lack of evidence*

Bangalore, Oct 17(ANI): Two cricketers from Jammu and Kashmir, who had been detained after suspected residue of explosive materials was *allegedly* found in their bag in Bangalore, were released on Saturday &#8220;for lack of incriminating evidence&#8221;.

According to reports, Bangalore police had detained Parvez Rasool and Mehrajudin following a* tip-off *that the two might have been carrying explosives to Chinnaswamy stadium, where two matches of the Champions League were to be played.

Earlier in the day, Bangalore police had taken both of them, who were in city to participate in the CK Naidu Trophy, into preventive custody. And an anti-explosive search was being conducted in the stadium to avoid any untoward incident on the occasion of Diwali.

Police said that there was no need to panic as the security has been beefed up in the city after the incident. (ANI)


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## EjazR

*Farooq Abdullah seeks probe into detention of cricketers*

Jammu, Oct 18 (IANS) A day after two cricketers from Jammu and Kashmir were detained and questioned in Bangalore, Union Minister for New and Renewable Energy and president of the state cricket body Farooq Abdullah called for a probe in the matter.

Talking to mediapersons in Jammu Sunday afternoon, Abdullah, president of the Jammu and Kashmir Cricket Association (JKCA), said: *&#8220;The entire blame cannot be laid on the Karnataka Police, for they were fed with wrong information by some people from here.&#8221;*

Abdullah said that he suspected the hand of those in the matter who could not find a place in the team.

Abdullah has asked the director general of police to probe the matter.

&#8220;I have asked the director general of police to look into the matter as to who phoned the people in Karnataka, which led to this unfortunate episode.&#8221;

Two Kashmiri cricketers of Jammu and Kashmir&#8217;s Under-22 team Parvez Rasool and Mehraj-ud-Din, were picked up from their room in Chinnaswamy stadium in Bangalore Saturday after traces of explosives were found in their bags. They were detained, questioned* and later set free.*


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## deckingraj

> That's completely speculative, and the plebiscite is to show the sentiments of Kashmiris, not Kashmiris from 1948-49, I fail to see where you derive that particular interpretation from. *The Kashmir dispute has not ceased to be a dispute since then, and the principle behind resolving the dispute remains the same - allow the Kashmiris to decide.*
> 
> And only a handful of locals needed to *** out the infiltrators, that too is not indicative of whether most Kashmiris would have chosen Pakistan or not.
> 
> KAGK was tremendously popular in NWFP, and he was pro-becoming a part of the Indian Union, yet despite his boycott, over 50&#37; of the electorate showed up at the polls, and 95-98% voted for Pakistan.




Hi Agnostic Muslim

Apologies to jump into your very informative conversation with Ejaz..However could not help as i like other's have very strong views on this subject...
_
why plebiscite was not held??_
Well not going into who did wrong blah blah...One of the conditions was Pak will remove its army from ***(in your words Azad Kashmir) and it never happened...I am sure you would also question India's intentions and actions. So lets say that both parties are responsible for it...
_
Does it make sense now_
The bigger question is does it make sense to have plebiscite now?? What about the people who dont want to remain with India or Pak or for that matter no-one??? what about kashmiri Pandits who have been forced out of Kashmir for decades??? 

To me it honestly make no sense......It would have made sense then(1947) but now its almost the third generation out and for them what matters most is economic progress in their beautiful but violence prone valley...

_Now few more questions....._

Why kashmiri's have the right to choose what country they should stay with and not other states like Balochistan, India's Punjab??? Don't get me wrong here...but on larger front i would like to know why India and Pakistani's are that much interested in Kashmiri's will...Isn't Kashmir issue more of an ego-clash between India and pakistan???? To me its all politics...Unfortunately a little more in yours country than in mine... 

I being a sikh have remorse of loosing Nankana saheb during partition. However unfortunate but that's the reality...I cannot and should not ignore it...Same is true with kashmir...

- It was a princely state..and as per my knowledge princely states had the right to choose what country they want to join irrespective of their majority population
- Pakistan forced Kashmir ruler to join Pakistan but he choosed india
- Pakistan and India fought a war and after which Nehru went into UNO promised plebiscite 
- one of the condition was Pak will move out its army from *** which never heppened
- Plebiscite as promised by India never happened
_ India pak fought 3 more wars and both sides did not move an inch from where they were...
- Unfortunately given a choice would not hesitate to have another go at each other...

For what??? Plebiscite??? No way my friend..It can't be anything than mere ego...Anyways it do not matter why it did not happen...*the fact is it will not happen*...Neither Pak will move its forces from *** neither india will go for plebiscite...In today's context it means nothing...It better to convert the LOC to a border with more autonomy to Kashmir...and stop the madness...


Pity we can easily convert this centuary to South Asian centuay but we are stuck in a 62 year old conflict of plebiscite...


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## SSGPA1

King Julien said:


> BTW, its our internal matter



too sad too bad as it is not your internal matter ... it is a disputed territory


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## SSGPA1

EjazR said:


> The only thing is the police got a "tipoff". Nothing wrong in questioning but there was no need to hype it up. Looks like some losers who could'nt make it into the team probably called up the police and did a hoax call. Anyways, good to know that a speedy investigation was done and the boys can go back to playing cricket



yep back to playing cricket after been insulted by the occupiers but what else can you expect??

Good keep doing that, serves the Kashmiri cause.


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## SSGPA1

EjazR said:


> Two Kashmiri cricketers of Jammu and Kashmirs Under-22 team Parvez Rasool and Mehraj-ud-Din, were picked up from their room in Chinnaswamy stadium in Bangalore Saturday after traces of explosives were found in their bags. They were detained, questioned* and later set free.*



Sure why not? Thank God that those kids were not POTAfied or their bodies were not found an a street ...

Ejaz, 

Do you worry about POTA when you go to India?

I mean, imagine if you travel to India and get into a fight with some Hindu guy who call the police and say you are terrorist.


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## SSGPA1

PM Singh woke up and since there was nothing much to do that day so he asked his staff to raise this NON-ISSUE.

_yaar kuch aur nahi mila?_


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## courageneverdies

vsdoc said:


> And how did Pakistan occupy the part of Kashmir it does today, way back in 1947? Peacefully ..... winning the hearts and minds of the Kashmiris? Its easy to point fingers, conveniently shutting your eyes to those pointing back at you.



Well I and many other Pakistanis strongly and rightly believe that it what Pakistan did than was right and justified. According to the partition scheme the states would decide their unificiation either with Pakistan or India because of the will of population and geographical placement. 

All know the percentage of Muslim population there in Kashmir was more than sufficient to vote for Pakistan but the Hindu raja denied the majority's will and voted for India. Now Indian govt. in hustle ordered Army to move in so quickly that they even were taken to Srinagar through air and not through land. What was the reason? Was India expecting any resistance?

Yes indeed it was known to the Dogra raja that Kashmiris will get up and fight back for their right and Indian forces are required to "soft" them down.

Pakistan entered Kashmir for one condition of Partition Scheme; the will of majority; was not fulfilled and hence it was justified.

You said pointing fingers to others is easy, why don't you turn it to yourself when you took Hyderabad and Jonagarh by force? Why didnt you let Hyderabad a free state? 

KIT Over


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## EjazR

POTA has been repealed, it is no longer in existence. Thats the power of democracy. 

I admit that we need police reforms, its the poor that includes Hindus Muslims and other poor who are most exploited. Thanks to terrorists its a recent phenomenon that muslims have been targeted, but as police reforms are put in and get more professional it will improve. The rich wether muslim or hindu can usually wiggle their way out through bribes or ministerial connections which is unfortunate.

The same is the situation in Pakistan. Arn't there thousands who were just disappeared by intelligence agencies. Isn't the kidnapping of people by intelleigence agencies that is one of the drivers for TTP. Just check out their propaganda videos after the Lal Masjid debacle that gave birth to TTP.

I just saw in the news that Hizb-ut-Tahrir activists were arrested, although they are provocative, they have never indulged in terrorism and it looks like Pakistani police is over-reacting. Now you have Rehman Malik's volunteer student spying corps. Isn't that as bad if not worse?

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## DavyJones

well said Ejaz - It is the poor who suffer in India. Poor Muslims and Hindus. Muslims are more vulnerable sometimes due to the non professionalism of the police force.

It's better to be safe than sorry sometimes. And there are plenty of checks in the Indian system to protect the innocent. The media has done a good job in highlighting the injustice to Muslims and the barbaric nature of Hindu fundamentalist outfits.

Still more needs to be done. Gujarat shocked all Indians but the action taken to redress the wrongs has not been adequate. Unfortunately the average Indian does not fight for his rights. Be it Mumbai attacks, Bombs in Delhi or Gujarat riots - there is no justice for the victims cause the people and politicians don't care.


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## afriend

SSGPA1 said:


> _The match between Victoria and Cape Cobras on Saturday got off to a delayed start after police detained an Under-22 cricketer from Jammu and Kashmir staying at the Karnataka State Cricket Association (KSCA) complex in the Chinnaswamy Stadium in connection with a suspected presence of explosives at the venue. He was released after questioning and, after the police gave the green signal, _
> 
> _Ehsan Mirza, a senior official at Jammu and Kashmir Cricket Association, however, said they had been assured by KSCA secretary Brijesh Patel there was nothing untoward but they were not happy with the incident. "Our Under-22 team reached Bangalore on Friday evening from Bhubaneswar," Mirza told Cricinfo.
> 
> "Today morning some people - I'm not sure whether Karnataka police or any other security agency - came to the KSCA and carried out interrogations and picked two of our boys, Pervez Rasool and Mehrajudin (both from Kashmir). We spoke to Brijesh Patel and he assured us there was nothing untoward. But we are not happy with the incident. This is the height of indecency, the way our boys have been treated, and we are speaking to our president Farooq Abdullah to get the team back."
> 
> An official from the Jammu and Kashmir U-22 team said they were "shocked". "We are going to Mumbai soon. But now this has happened. All the boys are shocked. We are just waiting for further orders."_
> 
> Match delayed after security alert | Cricket News | Champions League Twenty20 2009 | Cricinfo.com
> 
> *********************
> 
> One of the many reasons why Kashmiris don't want to be any part of India!!!



Hey a classic case of providing judgement without getting his/her facts right. 

read the articles below your post, you will get clear picture. And any how i don't think all of kashmiri's are angels just like any other place. they too have criminals, and we can't keep our hands tied to our back, and let off criminals, just because it is a DISPUTED territory according to you. And in this case he was released without charge becoz of lack of evidence. Don't you think that explains the strength of the system in india.


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## DavyJones

Ejaz,

Do you worry about POTA when you go to India?

I mean, imagine if you travel to India and get into a fight with some Hindu guy who call the police and say you are terrorist.

The Kashmiri's bag contained traces of explosives - there was a definite evidence of wrongdoing. I see Kashmiris working all over India from Kerala to Delhi - they face no problems in India. Why don't you come to India and see for yourself.
To the author of these comments. For your information POTA has been repealed in India. Anti terror laws are present in most Western countries too. And many of them are stricter than erstwhile POTA.

Encounters are one thing that Indian citizens worry about - once the matter reaches court it is difficult for any prejudice or bias as courts in India are very fair.
Recent investigations into encounters by media and NGOs has made the police and forces very cautious about such things. The powerful will always try to suppress the weak in every country - luckily India has a powerful middle class which wants peace and does'nt support right wing extremists.
Wonder if Pakistan's liberal people will stand up.


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## Kavin

China projects Kashmir as a separate country

Besides issuing separate visas to Indian passport holders from Jammu and Kashmir, China is also projecting the disputed territory as an independent country in other ways.

Visitors to Tibet, especially journalists invited by the Chinese government, are given handouts where Kashmir is indicated as a country separate from India.

Media kits providing "basic information" about Tibet - which China attacked and annexed in the 1950s - says Tibet "borders with India, Nepal, Myanmar and Kashmir area".

Except the "Kashmir area", the other three are sovereign countries.

Maps too, available in China, Myanmar and Nepal, show an India denuded of Kashmir.

Also, China's policy of extending assistance to only the government of a country indicates it considers India's nuclear rival and neighbour Pakistan to be in control of Pakistan-administered Kashmir by offering financial assistance to build a dam on the Indus river there.

China, now locked in a row with India, is also asking for the tightening of the open border between India and Nepal that, it says, is abetting anti-China activities and demonstrations by Tibetans crossing into Nepal from India.

Beijing is also indirectly asking for the closure of the seat of the Dalai Lama, the exiled leader of the Tibetans, in Dharamshala in India, hinting that such a step would improve India-China relations.

China, which fought a war with India in 1962, says Arunachal Pradesh belongs to it. India says it is an integral and inalienable part of India.

On the eve of the Dalai Lama's visit to Arunachal Pradesh in November, China has been hurrying Nepal to deploy armed security forces along the border between northern Nepal and Tibet.

Both Nepal's Home Minister Bhim Rawal and Prime Minister Madhav Kumar Nepal recently visited Mustang, the northernmost district in Nepal to assess the security plan.

Mustang was once both part of an ancient Tibetan kingdom and later the base of anti-China guerrilla attacks by Tibet's Khampa warriors.


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## sathruvinasakh

Time to Change the maps in India as well then in responce to Chinese rhetoric about Indian territories.

Start publishing Tibet and xinxiang as totally separate countries.Lets start educating our kids and neighbors along with old citizens.

If China wants a war ,there will be no backing up this time.Lets finish the crap for once and all.And see how many Chinese can kill how many Indians and Vice versa.


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## oceanx

sathruvinasakh said:


> Time to Change the maps in India as well then in responce to Chinese rhetoric about Indian territories.
> 
> Start publishing Tibet and xinxiang as totally separate countries.Lets start educating our kids and neighbors along with old citizens.
> 
> If China wants a war ,there will be no backing up this time.Lets finish the crap for once and all.And see how many Chinese can kill how many Indians and Vice versa.



Mode on:

Precisely. Do the world a favour: just as the German empire went after the British Empire to end both to make way for Pax Sovietica and Americana. Someone has to sacrifice for the good of the collective.

Perhaps it's time for the two most populous countries to commit "honourable" "hari kari" to save us from certain doom.

At least one member of the "overseas" brigade (unfortunately not me - not enough "fortitude") wants that badly!

Go after the big one - yes, make it spectacular. Let's see Xinjiang, Tibet, Manchuria, Khalistan, Begal Homeland, Nagaland, Tamil/Dravidian Homeland, and Bharat's Hindustan Holy Land all on the map.

It's the destiny! Brahmatical "Natal and Astrology Charts" say this much. There is no escape. All need to fulfill destiny.

 Democracy in China! And  the Liberation of the prison of nations called Bharat!

Nations live once, Glory lives forever.

Rockets Zindabad, War heads Zindabad, Bharatavarsha Zindabad.

Soon I am sure the War Professor will chime in and concur.​
Mode off.

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## SSGPA1

sathruvinasakh said:


> *If China wants a war ,there will be no backing up this time*.Lets finish the crap for once and all.And see how many Chinese can kill how many Indians and Vice versa.



Satu yaar, you should say that _India will not be humiliated this time_.


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## SSGPA1

EjazR said:


> Thanks to terrorists its a recent phenomenon that muslims have been targeted, but as police reforms are put in and get more professional it will improve.



So how many Hindus have been exploited because of Modi??

Shiv Sena activists entered Dilip Kumar's house and threatened him and his wife, so there is your rich Muslim theory.

Saif Ali Khan, Shaban Azmi and Javed Akhter can't get a house in Mumbai - here is another example.



EjazR said:


> The same is the situation in Pakistan. Arn't there thousands who were just disappeared by intelligence agencies. Isn't the kidnapping of people by intelleigence agencies that is one of the drivers for TTP. Just check out their propaganda videos after the Lal Masjid debacle that gave birth to TTP.
> 
> I just saw in the news that Hizb-ut-Tahrir activists were arrested, although they are provocative, they have never indulged in terrorism and it looks like Pakistani police is over-reacting. Now you have Rehman Malik's volunteer student spying corps. Isn't that as bad if not worse?



People were kidnapped and deported but not in thousands. Most of the missing actually went missing to create trouble for Gen. 
Musharraf.

So do you worry when you go to India?

All the action is not limited to one ethnicity or religion either unlike India where all action is against Muslims and Kashmiris.


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## deckingraj

> Satu yaar, you should say that India will not be humiliated this time.



Well yes you have rightly said India wont be humiliated this time..We definitely have move ahead and thank god after Kargil even with more determination...Our defeat from China was definitely humiliating and we acknowledged that and took corrective measures..I am sure you would have done the same after your humiliating defeat in 1971...

Anyways it is off-topic and sure have been discussed in lengths within the same forum many times...so lets leave it there...No why "India asking china to stay away from Kashmir"..as per me it is in reciprocation of their recent fuss about PM visit to Arunachal...


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## Peshwa

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *You cannot argue that just because you believe a particular leader was popular, that that satisfies the condition of plebiscite or is illustrative of the sentiment of Kashmiris on a particular issue.*
> 
> Political leaders tend to be popular with different people for different reasons - social programs, ideological reasons, economic policies, vision for the future etc. But popularity as a political figure does not automatically imply widespread support for a specific issue (becoming part of India or Pakistan) amongst the populace.



AM.....Im forced to throw the same argument back at you....

Jinnah and the other prominent Muslim leaders who pushed for partition were looked upon as representatives of the Muslims in the subcontinent....Based on their words, assurances and vision, an entire nations people went through seperation......
I dont remember any poll being conducted or a plebiscite to ask the Muslim masses whether they wanted partition???....especially based on the fact that a significant majority of the Muslims actually stayed in India!!!
So why discount the importance of Mr.Abdullah in the entire matter??
If Muslim's followed their leaders into Pakistan, it is but obvious that popularity of Mr.Abdullah would have led to the people choosing India.....
Care to explain??

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## EjazR

SSGPA1 said:


> So how many Hindus have been exploited because of Modi??
> 
> Shiv Sena activists entered Dilip Kumar's house and threatened him and his wife, so there is your rich Muslim theory.
> 
> Saif Ali Khan, Shaban Azmi and Javed Akhter can't get a house in Mumbai - here is another example.


Well if you objectively folow news, you will see that there are mutiple cases of "encounters" where students in manipur and UP were killed only recently, some where Hindu, some sikh. There was recent news story of a custodial death of a Hindu bussinessman in Jammu. South Indians and North Indians are beaten up by Shiv Sena activists and MNS when the try to get jobs in Mumbai or try to get homes. Yes most of these are Hindus too who were beaten up just because they came to apply for jobs or even married local marathi girls.

Many Indian members will agree with me and if you do search news articles related to this you will find out that this is true



SSGPA1 said:


> People were kidnapped and deported but not in thousands. Most of the missing actually went missing to create trouble for Gen.
> Musharraf.
> 
> So do you worry when you go to India?
> 
> All the action is not limited to one ethnicity or religion either unlike India where all action is against Muslims and Kashmiris.



I'm not talking about foreigners, Im talking about Pakistani citizens. This was happening long before Musharraf. That is why CJ of Pakistan is taking up this case because finally there is a CJ strong enough to stand up to the military.
Judge resumes case of Pakistan's missing persons

I have lived and studied in India for about 10 years. Before that me and my family use to travel to India every year from Saudi Arabia. And other than the occasional corrupt customs official or the traffic police I or my family have had no problems. This is despite the fact that they would easily be able to recognise me and my family as muslims. So no I don't worry personally. I even know some friends in the Hyderbad police force. To be frank I am more afraid of the Saudi police and avoid them as much as possible because they are so secretive and don't allow any contact outside whereas in case with India that is not the case.

But ofcourse I am concerned over the general police attitude. Its not just muslim specific although there is indeed a bias in the lower rungs of the police. I am also concerned about thier in ability to investigate crimes and terrorism related cases quickly and their use and political tools. That is why police reforms are so important and why civil society and Judiciary in India along with Chidrambram has been giving high priority to it.

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## EjazR

J&K cricketer puts it down to God?s will- Hindustan Times

Twenty-year-old Parvez Rasool was the highest scorer for Jammu and Kashmir under-22 team last year, including two back-to-back centuries. He did so well that he forced himself into the Ranji side, even if it was only for the last match of the season. But this time around, Rasool is so mentally traumatised that holding the bat in the nets is a problem.

Rasool was recently in the news for all the wrong reasons, after Bangalore police detained him for a day saying his bag contained traces of explosives. &#8220;I had not just come here just to play in the CK Nayudu tournament. I was keen on the trials for the Ranji Trophy. But I am unable to concentrate. I don't know whether I'll be able to perform my best,'' Rasool told the Hindustan Times from Bangalore.

The team is playing in Bangalore. Rasool, who bats at No. 4 and is also an off-spinner, says the year was crucial for him as he was hoping to get to the big league. His brother Asif also plays in the Ranji Trophy for J&K.

The other issue weighing Rasool down is his panic-stricken parents. &#8220;My parents have been supportive and I have been travelling since I turned 13.

&#8220;Convincing them to allow me to leave home to play cricket will be difficult,&#8221; he said. &#8220;I have been going out of Kashmir but this has never happened to me. I am too shocked.''

Recalling the day, Rasool said. &#8220;The police team came to my room and said that they wanted to check the room. The bag had the Quran in it. I told them to frisk with hands and not let the dog sniff it. They agreed, searched the place and the bag and left.&#8221;

After breakfast, he found the room doors open and police asked him to accompany him for questioning.

&#8220;They were not rough, they were decent, even gave us lunch. Besides I was convinced that nothing would happen to me as I was totally innocent and have done nothing wrong,&#8221; he recalls.

Rasool says the team got the bags from the Jammu and Kashmir Cricket Association on October 8 and they left Kashmir on October 10, 2009. &#8220;We passed through four airports before reaching Bangalore. Kashmir airport has the highest security. The baggage is hand checked thrice and scanned twice, nothing came out of there,&#8221; said Rasool.

Rasool is grateful for all the support he received.

&#8220;I am thankful to all, my association, and both Farooq Abdullah and the chief minister,&#8221; he said.

At the end of the day, though, Rasool is viewing the episode philosophically, and says it's god's will: _&#8220;Allah ki marzi thi, zaroor is mein kuch acha hoga.&#8221;_

*No comment from Karnataka Body*

The Karnataka State Cricket Association has refused to comment on the incident, but sources said that this was a matter for the police to address. Once the alarm went off, the KSCA's security firm had no option but to hand the matter over to the police.

&#8220;We have sent the bag to the Forensic Science Laboratory. It may take couple of days to receive the report.

&#8220;Things will be clear once the report is available,&#8221; city Police Commissioner Shankar Bidari said.


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## hembo

*Baluch militant killed in Valley: Police *
Wed, Oct 21 05:45 AM

The killing of a foreign fidayeen earlier this month in south Kashmir's Pulwama district has thrown up a surprise for the security forces. The slain militant reportedly belonged to Baluchistan province in Pakistan and the forces claim he is the first militant from Baluchistan killed in Kashmir in the past two decades.

"During all these years, I have never come across any militant from Baluchistan," IGP, Kashmir, Farooq Ahmed told The Indian Express. "Militants from Punjab, NWFP and other areas of Pakistan have been getting killed here, but it is for the first time that a Baluch militant has got killed in Kashmir."

Omar Maviya of Hizbul Mujahideen was killed on October 9 in Gusoo Pulwama in south Kashmir. The militant, the police said, was killed before he could carry out an attack in Srinagar and the police also recovered 25 kgs of RDX strapped to his body.

Days after the death of the militant, the police investigations have now identified the slain militant as Zaffar Iqbal of Baluchistan Pakistan.

"During the investigation of the Gusoo encounter, the police have succeeded in identifying the slain militant as Zaffar Iqbal, son of Mohammad Iqbal of Bang Balouch village in Pakistan's Baluchistan province," a police spokesman said. "The militant was deputed by Saqib, the divisional commander Pir Panchal Range of Hizbul Mujahideen for carrying out a fidayeen attack."

Majid Jahangir


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Patriot said:


> China's Response=  .The projects are already inked with China.Besides, WHAT can India do if China does not stop?



what can a 1985 Daihatsu Charade do against an SL55 AMG during a drag-race?


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## Sino-PakFriendship

Indian should return South Tibet to China!


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## EjazR

Tribal invasion was unprovoked aggression against J and K: Black Day conference | Sindh Today - Online News

London, Oct.20 (ANI): A Black Day Conference arranged by the Kashmir National Party in Watford, England, has said the tribal invasion of Jammu and Kashmir from October 22, 1947 onward was unprovoked aggression against the people of the region, and clearly violated Kashmiri sovereignty.

Over the years, Kashmiris have been holding Black Day demonstrations to coincide with the anniversary of the arrival of the Indian Army in Srinagar and the subsequent acession of the state to India.

The Black Day Conference in Watford was the first of its kind and attracted a lot of interest by concerned parties.

Thirteen political parties from the UK, representing various political view points, participated in the conference and declared that the tribal invasion was designed to force the Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir to join Pakistan.

Apart from Kashmiris, a number of Pakistanis were also present and expressed their support for the Kashmir cause.

KNP Chairman Abbas Butt welcomed all participants and explained the agenda of the conference.

He said: Our struggle is not against Pakistan or Pakistani people; it is not against India or Indian people. Our struggle is against injustice and wrong policies of Pakistan and India. If India and Pakistan change their Kashmir policies and people of Jammu and Kashmir get their right of self determination then we can all live in peace and harmony and work for peace and stability of the region.

We have produced a booklet which explains with historic evidence that the State of Jammu and Kashmir was independent after the end of the British Raj; and that tribal invasion was supported by Pakistani authorities in clear violation of the Standstill Agreement concluded between the Maharaja Government and Government of Pakistan, he added.

Dr Shabir Choudhry, spokesman of the KNP, said: The tribal invasion was planned and supported by the Government of Pakistan, and the aim was to punish the Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir who had refused to accede to Pakistan or India.

This tragic event changed the course of our history and our destination. It undermined our sovereignty and deprived us of our independence. It divided our beloved motherland and divided families and the nation. It killed innocent Kashmiri men and women. It plundered and looted Kashmiri resources. It is the main cause of our present miseries and troubles, he added.

If there was no tribal invasion, then there might have been no Kashmir dispute as we see it today. It was possible that both countries in absence of this dispute could have resolved other issues and could have developed friendly and cordial relations; and that could have led to peace and stability in the region, Choudhry said.

Sardar Shaukat Ali Kashmiri, the Chairman of the UKPNP, praised the KNP leadership for taking this daring step of having a Black Day Conference.

He claimed that no progress had been visible insofar as the Kashmiri struggle for self-determination was concerned.

We must not be afraid of criticism and exploring our history which has been distorted by those who occupy us. We must get our facts right and in this regard Dr Shabir Choudhry and KNP has done a considerable work and that must be appreciated by the Kashmiris, he added.

*The Kashmiri struggle is a political struggle. It is not fight against any religion or any community. We have common problems and we have common enemy and that is illiteracy, poverty, and extremism, he added.*

Apart from declaring the 1947 tribal invasion as an act of aggression, conference participants passed 13 other resolutions.

It was acknowledged that terrorism should be opposed in all its manifestations and that the struggle for the unification and independence of Jammu and Kashmir would continue.


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## EjazR

Kashmiris will never leave India: Farooq Abdullah | TwoCircles.net

By Sarwar Kashani,IANS,

New Delhi: India should not doubt Kashmiris and stop thinking they will ever "leave this nation", says former Jammu and Kashmir chief minister and union Minister for New and Renewable Energy Farooq Abdullah.

"Kashmir will remain a part of India and Kashmiris will never leave this nation. You should not doubt us. India should stop thinking that Kashmiris will ever divide off from India," Abdullah told IANS in an interview on the sidelines of a function organised here wednesday evening to celebrate his 73rd birthday.

The Kashmir issue, he said, "will be solved peacefully only if India and people at the helm (in New Delhi) stop thinking that Kashmiris will ever secede".

"I am a Muslim. I am Kashmiri and I am a proud citizen of India, the country whose unity in diversity amazes me," Abdullah, who is also president of the ruling National Conference in the state, stated.

The former chief minister appreciated the central government's move of "quiet diplomacy" to solve the problems in the state that has been ravaged by a two-decade separatist war.

"It (resuming dialogue) is a good move. I think New Delhi is sincere this time and the other side (separatist leaders) is also serious," Abdullah said, adding "there should be no hype if the Kashmir issue is to be solved sincerely".

Union Home Minister P. Chidambaram had announced in Kashmir last week that the central government was working "on quiet diplomacy to arrive at a unique, acceptable and honourable solution to the problems in Kashmir", raising expectations that the stalled talks with separatist leaders would resume.

The moderate faction of the separatist Hurriyat Conference has indicated its willingness to talk to New Delhi saying it was a "positive development".

*Abdullah said New Delhi should learn lessons from past mistakes of giving "too much hype" to the Kashmir peace process -- which led to the brutal killing of a Hizbul Mujahideen militant commander, Abdul Majid Dar, who had agreed to hold talks with the central government after he declared a ceasefire in 2000. Dar was expelled from the outfit and was later shot dead by militants in March 2002.*

Abdullah said dialogue to encompass all shades of opinion was "inevitable and it seems New Delhi has recognised the fact".

"They are sincere," he reiterated, adding that some political prisoners had been released. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is also holding a meeting to implement the recommendations of the five working groups set up to look into the problems in the state.

Earlier, addressing an invited audience at the function organised by the Foundation for Amity and National Solidarity, Abdullah said India wanted peace with Pakistan.

"We don't hate you (Pakistan). We feel sad to see what is happening (in Pakistan). We want a friendship with you but please allow us to live happily," he said while expressing concern over rising terrorism in the neighbouring country.

*Abdullah urged politicians not to mix religion with politics. "Every election in India divides the nation because elections are being fought on religious sentiments. People are seeking votes in the name Ram and Allah.*

"Please don't do this. I and my state have paid dearly for religious radicalism. Please listen to the heartbeats of the people of India. They want to live in peace and harmony. Don't divide them," an emotional Abdullah told the gathering, which also included former ministers Vasant Sathe and M.M. Jacob as well as former Jammu and Kashmir governor and ex RAW (Research and Analysis Wing) chief G.C. Saxena.

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## Halaku Khan

oops .. already posted. please delete this thread.


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## garibnawaz

Why would they?

Indian Kashmir has got everything for them.

Right from highways, railways to an international airport which will also serve Haj flights from this year.

What they really need is getting rid of militiancy which will bring more tourism which will apparently help the economy of Kashmir.

GB

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## desiman

If there is an honest answer to this question, i can say that India will NEVER let go of Kashmir. It is totally absurd and out of question. Indian Kashmir is growing rapidly and terrorism is on a decline as more and more kashmiris see that their future belongs with India. I have lived in Mumbai and i can tell you that there are many kashmiris working there and that they are more than happy and have no complains about India or the "so called" torture that India does on them. All these articles that my fellow members post up here pointing out towards India's actions are either baseless or really old. The current situation is very very different. There is a peaceful mood in the valley and the Indian government is taking full steps to peacefully satisfy the needs of the Kashmiris. No one else needs to worry about the rights of kashmiris as they are being taken care of by India. Yes there are bound to be some problems but that totally due to the fact that when a government is trying to deal with terrorism there are bound to be problems. As proved again and again by India, a good 90&#37; of these so called freedom fighters are foreign in origin and are not here to fight any freedom but just spread fear among the population. Kashmiri's have today realized that this so called freedom struggle is funded and ignited by foreign states interested in breaking up India. As the elections this time proved, the Indian congress won by a land slide rather than the extremist party's which again proves what the kashmiris want. Kashmir is an integral part of India and it will always remain so, India has again and again repeated that Pakistan has no role to play in this problem and the idea of an independent Kashmir or a Kashmir belonging to pakistan is totally out of question and India is very well prepared to defend any misgivings from any side. This is the view from the Indian side, feel free to disagree


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## Nemesis

India will never let go of Kashmir because as such it would prove the absurd two nation theory to be correct and put question marks on Indian nationhood and secularism.


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## Enigma SIG

I say make the LOC a permanent border and finish off this dispute once and for all. 
Let the Kashmiris fight for their own homeland if they want to. If they wanted to be liberated; they wouldn't have helped the Indian Military in smoking out our commandos in Kargil. This thing has dragged down our country in a bottomless pit.

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## sathruvinasakh

Bill Longley said:


> *the reasons i think are
> 
> 1] india is an imperial colonial power, just look at whats happening in northeast,jharkand and other maoist infected areas.
> 
> 2] india is an evil empire ,in disguise of seculerism, govt of india is helping fanatic terror groups like shivsina,dharmasina,rss etc to eliminate all the minorities and make inda a hindu rashtra. one should remember the present govt of congress known to be a SECULER PARTY WAS THE REASON FOR DEHLI MASSACE AND OPERATION BLUE STAR
> 
> 3] any concession to kashmir means ,indians have to give the same to other more than 14 states who are fighting for their God gifted right. so KASHMIRIS SHOULD FORGET INDEPENDENCE BECAUSE THEIR INDEPENDENCE MEANS DISINTEGRATION OF INDIA EMPIRE.
> 
> 4] the attitude of indians clearly REFLECTS THAT THEY ARE NOT INTRESTED IN KASHMIRI PPL AND THEY CAN ARRANGE A NEW GENOCIDE TO ELEMINATE ALL MUSLIM KASHMIRIES SO THAT NO ONE SHOWS DISSENT. FROM INDIAN VIEW POINT KASHMIRI LAND IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE POOR MUSLIM INHABITANTS.
> 
> 5] the indian GOVT THINKS IT IS A BIG MARKET AND GREAT POWERS HAVE GREAT INTREST IN ITS MARKET. SO THEY CAN EASILY GET AWAY FROM GENOCIDE OF KASHMIRIES AND GROSS HUMAN RIGHT ABUSES AGAINST POPULATION.
> 
> 6.] THE KASHMIR FREEDOM STRUGGLE HAS CAUSED GREAT LOSSES TO INDIAN EMPIRE. INDIAN ARMY AND PARAMILITARIES ARE TURNING MENTAL CASES. ACCORDING TO INDIAN CHEIF 100 SOLDIERS ON THE AVERAGE COMMIT SUSIDE EVERY YEAR AND 250 ALONE COMMITED SUSIDE OR KILLED THEIR FELLOWS IN 2005. SIMILARLY DUE TO MENTAL BANKRUPSY INDIANS ARE ACQUISEING NEIGHBORS EVEN SPREADING AIDS IN THE RANKS JUST TO HIDE THE SHAME AND DISHONOR OF THEIR ARMIES ACTS AND CONDUCTS.THERE FORE ITS QUITE VISIBLE THAT INDIA A HOLLOW NUCLEAR POWER WILL NEVER GIVE KASHMIRIS WHAT THEY WANT. IT WILL ELIMINATE THEM ALL IF THEY KEEP ON ASKING FREEDOM BUT WILL NEVER COMPLY WITH WISHES OF REPRESSED PPL
> 
> india is illegalay occuping kashmir. it want to occupy azad kashmir and our northern areas also so that
> 1] it could have link to central asia, remember the wakhan belt[afghanistan] which is only few km between us and cental asia
> 
> 2] india want to cut the link between us and china
> 
> its a realist world where strategic and national intrest are more precious than low of morality or religon.
> 
> pro peace propoganda by indians is only a time gaining and diverting tactics.
> 
> do you think if we agree on loc as permanent boarder. peace will prevail and kashmir issue will end?????????????
> 
> no it will never
> read the indian history read how indians occupied independent states of sikkim, jnagarh, hyderabad etc.
> 
> the problem with us is that although we have 1000 year of experence we still fail to understand enemies thought process and how he acts*



Because Kashmir was given to India by the King of Kashmir.Kashmir deserves to be part of India.

And didnt you feel the utter embarrassment when you talk about terrorism in India ?Since terrorism started with Pakistan fuelling the tribes of Pakistan.
And what really makes you feel that Kashmir is part of pakistan,while pakistan as a whole is used to be a part of India just 60 yrs back?

Again,which genocide are you talking about? the mass murdering of kashmiri hindus by these brainwashed terrorists?

Pakistan is getting waters for its agriculture at the mercy of India.And Indians didnt even had showed that mercy and sympathy towards the muslims, then today the pakistani nation you are talking about would have became another Asian desert and would be fighting to be given a place in the worlds largest and biggest muslim deserts.

Indus water treaty is a completely bullshi$t treaty.Since India and US were on different boats that time, the UN council betrayed the billion Indians giving only few ml of kashmiri waters which actually originated in India while caring few million pakistanis.Waters should be divided equivocally to all the population and perfect ratio have to be achieved. Otherwise India have to exit from the treaty and its northern states water crisis has to be addressed. 
If you wanna play a hard ball and wanna try your luck,you are gonna loose all you have at this moment.


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## humblehobbes

Towards Kashmir talks

There is no place, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh announced from the ramparts of the Red Fort on Independence Day, for separatist thought in Jammu and Kashmir. Less than three months later, persuaded that this summers street protests demonstrated that Kashmiri secessionists have both reach and influence, the central government has changed tack. During his visit to Srinagar last week, Union Home Minister P. Chidambaram announced that New Delhi would be seeking to renew the long-stalled dialogue process. He correctly acknowledged that there is a political problem in Kashmir and it has to be solved. Jammu and Kashmirs unique history necessitated a unique solution, he urged, using language that was different from New Delhis standard official rhetoric. Mr. Chidambaram made the case for quiet, behind-the-scenes talks: a constructive dialogue, as he put it, rather than a photo opportunity. That dialogue, highly-placed government sources have told The Hindu, is already under way: separatist leaders, including All Parties Hurriyat Conference chief Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front leader, Yasin Malik, have met with high-level functionaries in the Union Home Ministry. The effort is to work out a framework both sides can live with  and ensure that the talks are built on foundations strong enough to endure political storms.

Will the effort succeed? There is of course no guarantee it will. In January 2004, Deputy Prime Minister L.K. Advani met with the Hurriyat leadership for the first time. The ground was prepared and Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee announced that the only precondition for negotiations was humanism. This was followed up by a second meeting that March. Prime Minister Singh held two more rounds of talks in May and September 2005. Fearful of the jihadist wrath, the Hurriyat never brought a serious agenda to the table. In March 2006, APHC leaders promised to attend Dr. Singhs all-party Roundtable Conference on Jammu and Kashmir only to back off in the face of terrorist threats. Two challenges now lie ahead. First, J&Ks fractious secessionist groups must agree on a road map for progress. Mirwaiz Farooq has set up a committee to engage his archrival, Islamist hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani; it can only be hoped the talks are fruitful. Secondly, Islamabads support for the dialogue process must be secured. Pakistan would do well to appoint an envoy to continue the secret dialogue held by Satinder Lambah and Tariq Aziz, which yielded a set of agreed principles for a resolution of the Kashmir conflict in 2006. Mr. Chidambaram meanwhile must be applauded for taking a significant step forward in the knowledge that the journey to peace will be a long, hard trudge, littered with political minefields.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/...2009102255520800.htm&date=2009/10/22/&prd=th&


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

chinese..........there a song by MJ...{dangerous}....

perhaps these 4 foot people are dangerous....


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## Iggy

Because if we settled the Kashmir issue we will start missing each other a lot and the find another reason to fight against each other..So its better stick with kashmir ;-)


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## rajeev

Imran2006g said:


> I say make the LOC a permanent border and finish off this dispute once and for all.
> Let the Kashmiris fight for their own homeland if they want to. If they wanted to be liberated; they wouldn't have helped the Indian Military in smoking out our commandos in Kargil. This thing has dragged down our country in a bottomless pit.



I think that is a good solution. And I am guessing most rational Indians would agree.

May be also have an easy regime of visa for Kashmiris to visit both sides of Kashmir.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

abhaystgy said:


> why P. O. K was changed to ***** in my previous post. You cannot decide what to call to a piece of land. As long as people are not breaking rules, it should be allowed.



The word is censored - this is a Pakistani forum and it is our policy to censor P-O-K and only allow Azad Kashmir, Pakistani Kashmir, PaK etc.

Indians may not like it, but that is forum policy - please respect it if you wish to participate on the forum.


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## desiman

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The word is censored - this is a Pakistani forum and it is our policy to censor P-O-K and only allow Azad Kashmir, Pakistani Kashmir, PaK etc.
> 
> Indians may not like it, but that is forum policy - please respect it if you wish to participate on the forum.



Brother i respect the fact that you are trying to protect the emotions of pakistani's but in India we dont call it azad kashmir or any of the other names you mentioned. What Abhay said is not wrong in any way as that is what it is called in India. No hard feelings there. In regards to this being a pakistani forum, thats for sure but i can guarantee you that this forum would not be successful without the Indian members contribution, there is no fun without someone criticizing you or else people continue to live in their dream worlds lol


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

abhaystgy said:


> Nice policy to keep Indian away. Simple way, just don't allow them to join this forum. I know, you might ban me for writing this.



If you wish to stay away merely for not being able to write P-O-K, then that is your choice. As you can see however, we probably have more Indian members than Pakistani ones despite that.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

desidog said:


> Brother i respect the fact that you are trying to protect the emotions of pakistani's but in India we dont call it azad kashmir or any of the other names you mentioned. What Abhay said is not wrong in any way as that is what it is called in India. No hard feelings there. In regards to this being a pakistani forum, thats for sure but i can guarantee you that this forum would not be successful without the Indian members contribution, there is no fun without someone criticizing you or else people continue to live in their dream worlds lol



DD - Freedom to express oneself within reason is what keeps members here, not the ability to write P-O-K.

That word has been banned almost since we were founded, and many Indians still love participating here.


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## Enigma SIG

rajeev said:


> I think that is a good solution. And I am guessing most rational Indians would agree.
> 
> May be also have an easy regime of visa for Kashmiris to visit both sides of Kashmir.



Simply put; the egos on both sides are too tough to break. Make the LOC the permanent border and allow Kashmiris *ONLY* to visit the other side without a visa.

And then hopefully the Indian and Pakistani military can doze off and the civilian governments can use the extra money to lift the millions in the Sub-continent out of poverty.

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## vkurian

Bill Longley said:


> *the reasons i think are
> 
> 1] india is an imperial colonial power, just look at whats happening in northeast,jharkand and other maoist infected areas.
> 
> 2] india is an evil empire ,in disguise of seculerism, govt of india is helping fanatic terror groups like shivsina,dharmasina,rss etc to eliminate all the minorities and make inda a hindu rashtra. one should remember the present govt of congress known to be a SECULER PARTY WAS THE REASON FOR DEHLI MASSACE AND OPERATION BLUE STAR
> 
> 3] any concession to kashmir means ,indians have to give the same to other more than 14 states who are fighting for their God gifted right. so KASHMIRIS SHOULD FORGET INDEPENDENCE BECAUSE THEIR INDEPENDENCE MEANS DISINTEGRATION OF INDIA EMPIRE.
> 
> 4] the attitude of indians clearly REFLECTS THAT THEY ARE NOT INTRESTED IN KASHMIRI PPL AND THEY CAN ARRANGE A NEW GENOCIDE TO ELEMINATE ALL MUSLIM KASHMIRIES SO THAT NO ONE SHOWS DISSENT. FROM INDIAN VIEW POINT KASHMIRI LAND IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE POOR MUSLIM INHABITANTS.
> 
> 5] the indian GOVT THINKS IT IS A BIG MARKET AND GREAT POWERS HAVE GREAT INTREST IN ITS MARKET. SO THEY CAN EASILY GET AWAY FROM GENOCIDE OF KASHMIRIES AND GROSS HUMAN RIGHT ABUSES AGAINST POPULATION.
> 
> 6.] THE KASHMIR FREEDOM STRUGGLE HAS CAUSED GREAT LOSSES TO INDIAN EMPIRE. INDIAN ARMY AND PARAMILITARIES ARE TURNING MENTAL CASES. ACCORDING TO INDIAN CHEIF 100 SOLDIERS ON THE AVERAGE COMMIT SUSIDE EVERY YEAR AND 250 ALONE COMMITED SUSIDE OR KILLED THEIR FELLOWS IN 2005. SIMILARLY DUE TO MENTAL BANKRUPSY INDIANS ARE ACQUISEING NEIGHBORS EVEN SPREADING AIDS IN THE RANKS JUST TO HIDE THE SHAME AND DISHONOR OF THEIR ARMIES ACTS AND CONDUCTS.THERE FORE ITS QUITE VISIBLE THAT INDIA A HOLLOW NUCLEAR POWER WILL NEVER GIVE KASHMIRIS WHAT THEY WANT. IT WILL ELIMINATE THEM ALL IF THEY KEEP ON ASKING FREEDOM BUT WILL NEVER COMPLY WITH WISHES OF REPRESSED PPL
> 
> india is illegalay occuping kashmir. it want to occupy azad kashmir and our northern areas also so that
> 1] it could have link to central asia, remember the wakhan belt[afghanistan] which is only few km between us and cental asia
> 
> 2] india want to cut the link between us and china
> 
> its a realist world where strategic and national intrest are more precious than low of morality or religon.
> 
> pro peace propoganda by indians is only a time gaining and diverting tactics.
> 
> do you think if we agree on loc as permanent boarder. peace will prevail and kashmir issue will end?????????????
> 
> no it will never
> read the indian history read how indians occupied independent states of sikkim, jnagarh, hyderabad etc.
> 
> the problem with us is that although we have 1000 year of experence we still fail to understand enemies thought process and how he acts*



Whatever be the reason ....... Your head line is the bottomline.

Thanks for getting it right.


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## Incredible India

It is unbelievable but Srinagar has changed beyond recognition in the past four years since I was there last. Right from the swanky new airport to the hotel, a distance of about 10 km, there is modern construction.

However, trees have been cut down mercilessly to accommodate fancy thoroughfares. Walls running along the road have been demolished and the rubble is there for all to see. As I covered the journey to my hotel, I missed the old Kashmiri houses from where women with long trinkets would peer out.

Shops are well stocked and full of customers. Too much money is flowing in and the guess is that it is from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and India in that order. The number of cars on the road is many times more than before. There are traffic jams and one has to keep the snarls in mind when one plans a trip. People move freely. I saw many women on the road without burka or headwear.

Militancy is by and large over. Some terrorists strike once in a while. They attacked the police at Lal Chowk recently. But I get the feeling that the media magnifies stray incidents. When attacks were a regular feature, there was curfew after sunset. Now the people are on the road even at 11 pm.

I did not see a single policeman on the road from the airport. Bunkers are mostly gone. I found one at Lal Chowk where some policemen stood with their fingers on the trigger. Papa One and Papa Two, the interrogation centres, have been closed. But detentions still take place. The biggest worry is the occasional disappearance of youth. Incidents like the rape of two women at Shopian are rare. But whenever they take place, they infuriate the people to the extent that they come out on the streets.

The mode of search, whether of a vehicle or a person, has changed. Policemen are more polite and less intrusive. Still a member of a very respected family told me how he and his wife were stopped on the road. A policeman wanted to search the woman but on his insistence a female officer did so.

The anti-India feeling is there beneath the surface. People are not afraid of saying so. However, pro-Pakistan sentiments have practically disappeared, more because of the Kashmiris perception of the mess in which the country is.

I found the Hurriyat leaders sober. One leader told me that they had vibes from Delhi that something positive would emerge. They are looking forward to talks with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. There is an effort to have a consensus among the different parties, including the Hurriyat, before the prime ministers arrival. Chief Minister Omar Abdullah wants New Delhi to talk to all political parties but has also emphasised that India should have a dialogue with Pakistan to resolve the Kashmir problem.

It was an interesting talk which I heard when I was sitting with the Hurriyat leaders. A young Pakistani American told them that what had surprised him after the span of three years since his last visit was that Kashmir was being assimilated by India quickly. They were embarrassed but did not want to reply to him in my presence.

Born in Kashmir, this young man is a member of a think tank in Washington. He told them that free state elections, watched by a large number of Americans on televisions, had made a great impression. He said they were beginning to believe that the problem was more or less over.

Former chief minister Farooq Abdullah is more candid than his son, Omar, who is losing his popularity fast. Farooq says there are paid lobbies in the state to keep the problem alive. He accuses security forces, politicians and bureaucrats of having a vested interest in the Kashmir crisis. He has a point when he says that New Delhi has failed to make headway in resolving the problem. Not many solutions are hawked about now.

There is a suggestion that both Kashmirs should be demilitarised, India withdrawing its forces from the valley and stationing them on its border and Pakistan doing likewise and pulling out its forces from Azad Kashmir. But this depends on India and Pakistan reaching a settlement, supported by the Kashmiris.

The problem of Jammu and Ladakh has become ticklish. They do not want to stay with the valley. Jammu wants to join India and Ladakh wants a union territory status. True, the Hurriyat has never tried to woo Jammu and has seldom cared for the Kashmiri Pandits languishing there. Still both Jammu and Ladakh can be brought around if they were to be given an autonomous status by the valley within the state.

I have no doubt that the Kashmir problem will be solved sooner or later. But too much has happened in the state in the past. This makes it difficult for the old Kashmir to come back to life. Familiar symbols are dying. Sufism has been replaced by assertive teachings. Kashmiri music is dying out because society has been forced to acquire a religious edge. Old crafts attract fewer artisans because there is a race to earn a quick buck. The wazwan, a string of Kashmiri dishes served at one sitting, is still there but new cooks are hard to get.

The reintegration of Muslims and Pandits appears difficult. An Islamic identity has taken shape, reportedly more in the countryside. Kashmiriyat, a secular ethos, is beyond repair. The animosity among the three regions Kashmir, Jammu and Ladakh, may dilute but will remain. It may still remain the state of Jammu and Kashmir. But its soul would be missing.

DAWN.COM | Columnists | Kashmir without a soul

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## EjazR

Former Valley militants turn to Indian Govt for relief

It's another sign of the changing times in Kashmir. Former militants who earlier refused to recognise the sovereignty of India are now organising themselves into groups to demand their rehabilitation by the Government.

Over the past one month, two such groups  Released Militants Rehabilitation Forum and J-K People's Rights Movement  have been formed in north Kashmir, once the fountainhead of jihad in the Valley. Though the former militants are still grappling to emerge from the shadows, the extraordinary nature of their message stands out loud and clear  they speak out against the separatist leadership, complain bitterly about being let down by them, recount the ordeals they went through, list their sacrifices and, of course, seek compensation. And they have no problem if that help comes from New Delhi.

We put our lives on the line for the cause of Kashmir. We lost everything. But what did we get? While the leaders enjoy comfortable lives, our families have been torn apart, laments Ghulam Muhammad Mir, who heads the Released Militants Rehabilitation Forum. 

Mir does not mince words about what they see as the betrayal of Islamabad. The same Pakistan which pitted us against India now welcomes and hosts the mainstream leaders. We feel cheated, he says, in a reference to PDP president Mehbooba Mufti's high-profile visit to Pakistan recently.

Mir claims his forum comprises around 300 released militants, and says they are open to other former militants who wish to join. The forum, he says, will pool money to give financial help to them.

The first meeting of the Released Militants Rehabilitation Forum was held in Mir's native village, Kichhama, on April 6, with about a hundred former militants present. Another is planned at the nearby district headquarters Baramulla. Then we will hold one in Srinagar, says Mir.

A parallel group, the J-K Peoples Rights Movement, has already taken its campaign to Srinagar. On April 4, the group held its meeting at a hotel in the summer capital where its members related their stories to a packed hall. They talked of torture, killings, suicides and unemployment.

Abdul Qadeer Dar, a former commander who heads the group, says they had formed it to fight for the rights of all released militants. We have given up guns. Now we want to talk and share our troubles.

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## Halaku Khan

*Huge anti-Pak protests in Azad Kashmir, violence erupts*
ANI


Published on Sat 24th Oct 2009 07:45:31
Updated On Sat 24th Oct 2009 07:46:51
Islamabad, Oct 24:

Kashmiris from all walks of life observed a Black Day in Pakistan Kashmir, including capital Muzaffarabad, on the occasion of the 62nd anniversary of the invasion of the area by Pakistani army men disguised as tribesmen from the North West Frontier of Province (NWFP), known as the Lashkars.

A large number of people, carrying black flags and protest placards, participated in demonstrations held in various parts of Pakistan Kashmir.

Among the participants were Arif Shahid, the general secretary of the All Party National Alliance (APNA), Baltistan National Front leader Nawaz Khan Naji and Abdul Hamid Khan, the Chairman of Balawaristan National Front, besides others.

So vociferous were the protests by the almost 800-odd participants, that security forces deployed to ensure maintenance of law and order, had to use teargas shells and firing in the air to disperse them.

Some of them said that Jammu and Kashmir would never have been a subject of dispute had then newly created Pakistan not launched an "unprovoked tribal aggression against the Kashmiris" over six decades ago.

This was an unprovoked aggression against the people, against the state of Jammu and Kashmir on the 22nd of October 1947, said Arif Shahid, general secretary of the All Party National Alliance (APNA), and added, it was important to recall historical facts and put things in the right perspective.

For the last six decades, this region which Islamabad administers is has been subjected to the worst cases of human rights violations.

While successive governments in Pakistan have asserted that Kashmirs political future must be determined in accordance with the wishes of its people, yet its own constitutional provisions deny political choices to Kashmiris on its side with the exception of supporting its accession to Pakistan.

One unnamed leader of a Kashmir-based party claimed that authorities in Islamabad were only interested in occupying land in whichever way possible. He cited the recent decision of appointing a governor for the disputed area of Gilgit-Baltistan as proof of territorial acquisition.

India and Pakistan have fought two wars over Kashmir since gaining independence from British colonial rule in 1947. The dispute has now been further compounded by an increased activity from countries like China.

China has in recent years increased its presence in Gilgit Baltistan and in the Karakoram ranges in the pretext of carrying out developmental projects.

A recent report indicated a massive military build up of over 10,000 Chinese soldiers in the disputed region.

Meanwhile, the All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) in Pakistan Kashmir has said that it will hold a peaceful sit-in and march on October 27.

The sit-in and march would be held in front of the UN Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP) in Muzaffarabad to express solidarity with the people of Kashmir and to urge the world community to focus on the Kashmir problem.

A statement issued here on Thursday said that APHC would also present a memorandum on Kashmir to the UNMOGIP office Muzaffarabad.

It maybe recalled that the tribal invasion of 1947 had resulted in nearly a third of the territory now known as Azad Jammu and Kashmir, or Pakistan-administered Kashmir, falling to the raiders before the then Maharaja (King) of Kashmir, Hari Singh, pleaded to India for help.

Indian troops were then airlifted into the Kashmir Valley on October 27, and they succeeded in blocking the tribal army''s advance beyond Baramulla District in the north of the Kashmir Valley.


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## Halaku Khan

^^^ It is good to see these people in Azad Kashmir expressing themselves, but one is also somewhat concerned. Protesters in Balochistan have been put down with an iron fist. Hope these people stay safe.


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## Halaku Khan

Pakistani policemen beat Kashmiri nationalists during a protest rally in Muzaffarabad on October 24, 2009.



Getty Images


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## SSGPA1

EjazR said:


> At the end of the day, though, Rasool is viewing the episode philosophically, and says it's god's will: _Allah ki marzi thi, zaroor is mein kuch acha hoga._



He is absolutely right, this issue will raise awareness amongst Muslims about the bias of India police towards Muslims.

This will also let the world know that Muslims in general and Kashmiris in particular are viewed as suspects in India.


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## SSGPA1

EjazR said:


> Well if you objectively folow news, you will see that there are mutiple cases of "encounters" where students in manipur and UP were killed only recently, some where Hindu, some sikh. There was recent news story of a custodial death of a Hindu bussinessman in Jammu. South Indians and North Indians are beaten up by Shiv Sena activists and MNS when the try to get jobs in Mumbai or try to get homes. Yes most of these are Hindus too who were beaten up just because they came to apply for jobs or even married local marathi girls.
> 
> Many Indian members will agree with me and if you do search news articles related to this you will find out that this is true.



You commented that rich people will work around such issues and I am suggesting that this may not be true for rich Muslims. No matter how you look at the situation, Muslims (rich or poor) suffer in India because they are Muslims.


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## EjazR

@SSPGA

I would ofcourse agree that recently there has been an increasing bias towards muslims, but that is understandable but definitely not condoned in the current situation. The problem is not only confined to some sections in the police but also the biased nature of lawyers and bar associations refusing to provide poor accused of any free legal help to the accused (they are still payed by the govt.) inspite of being mandated by law to do so. But at the same time there are clean cops who are professional and protecting the country by doing their investigations objectively, and lawyers who actively help in protecting and upholding civil rights.

Infact, hasn't there been an increasing bias in Pakistan targetting Afghans, Pashtoons, people with beards just because of the current situation. Again, it is no excuse for not following due process of law and indulgin in human rights violations.

The police in India needs to be reformed and the poor most definitely suffer more, I can assure you on that as I have lived there. Comparitively the police in western countries also suffers from bias towards arabs for example unfortuantely but because of their more professional training and human rights monitors in their countries, they have a more fair trial and treatment by the police there than even in some muslim countries.


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## Novice09

SSGPA1 said:


> You commented that rich people will work around such issues and I am suggesting that this may not be true for rich Muslims. No matter how you look at the situation, Muslims (rich or poor) suffer in India because they are Muslims.



Do you think its just happening in India  These terrorists are defaming Muslims all over the world.


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## Novice09

EjazR said:


> @SSPGA
> 
> The police in India needs to be reformed and the poor most definitely suffer more, I can assure you on that as I have lived there. Comparitively the police in western countries also suffers from bias towards arabs for example unfortuantely but because of their more professional training and human rights monitors in their countries, they have a more fair trial and treatment by the police there than even in some muslim countries.



Buddy you lived and I'm leaving in India. Believe me Indian police (except in Gujarat) really fears to take any action against Muslims specially if it's illegal. and yes they are faaar behind to be termed as professionals (except the police of metro cities). Indian media is running behind them deliriously.


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## EjazR

Novice09 said:


> Buddy you lived and I'm leaving in India. Believe me Indian police (except in Gujarat) really* fears to take any action against Muslims *specially if it's illegal. and yes they are faaar behind to be termed as professionals (except the police of metro cities). Indian media is running behind them deliriously.



I just left India three years back, and I have lots of family back there so I can say that Im fairly aware of what the situation is. 

If you look at stats from prison and arbitrary arrests to pending cases, the bias will definitely show. Recently a number of magazines and invesitgative journalists have exposed the fake encouters that have been going on. There was another report on police using farm houses as safe houses to avoid bringing the arrested person in court. Not only muslims but sikhs and Hindus were also targeted in various parts of India like UP and Manipur. The Gujarat cases was just some of them. Ofcourse these are only sections in the police and is in no way representative of the majority of the police force and the good cops who do an excellent job.

There might be collusion between criminal gangs(whichever community) and corrupt police and politicians just to let "their" men go do what they want. The police might also be used as a political tool.

If the police is afraid to do anything "illegal" isn't that a good thing? That benefits all Indians.


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## Omar1984

*Kashmiris Observing Black Day Today *



SRINAGAR: Kashmiris Observing Black Day Today, Kashmiri people on both sides of the LoC and the whole world is observing Black Day today to convey to the international community to reject the illegal occupation of India in its territory.

The day will be marked with the total strike in the occupied territory. Call for this has been given by the Conference of All Parties Hurriyat and senior Kashmiri Hurriyet leader Syed Ali Geelani, Kashmir Media Service reported Monday

It was on 27 October 1947, when Indian troops invaded Kashmir in clear violation of the subcontinents partition plan and the aspirations of Kashmiris. 

Senior APHC leader Agha Syed Hassan Al-Moosvi addressing a party meeting in Badgam urged India to flee their intransigence and take steps to resolve the Kashmir dispute once and for all.

The Indian troops in their fresh act of state terrorism martyred three innocent Kashmiri youth in Shopian Kellar. The officials said one of the martyrs was a division commander of Hizbul Mujahideen.

People took to the streets in Habba Kadal, Maisuma and Gaw Kadal in Srinagar, at present, contrary to submit to peaceful protesters in the city by force by the troops yesterday.

Several protesters were injured and the condition of one of them was stated to be critical. Handwara, protests continued against the assassination of a 12th student by Indian troops.

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## Omar1984

*Kashmiris heed strike call as India PM visits *

SRINAGAR, India, Oct 27 (Reuters) - Shops and businesses closed on Tuesday in Indian Kashmir's main city in response to a strike called by separatists, a day before a planned visit by Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

The strike, called by hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani, marks the 62nd anniversary of New Delhi's rule over the troubled region.

"By observing a strike on October 27 Kashmiris will make it clear to the international community that they are still protesting Indian occupation with vigour," Geelani said in a statement. "October 27 is a black day for Kashmir."

The former independent state has been disputed by India and Pakistan since they won independence from Britain in 1947 after a bloody partition. The two countries have fought two of their three wars over the region.

The streets in Srinagar, Kashmir's summer capital, and other major towns in the Muslim-majority valley were largely deserted, witnesses said. The strike closed most of the schools and colleges.

The Indian army marks the event as "Martyrs' Day."

Geelani called for a complete shutdown on Wednesday during a visit by Manmohan Singh, who is scheduled to inaugurate a railway line in south Kashmir.

After the partition, independent Kashmir, with its largely Muslim population, was expected to go to Pakistan.

Its Hindu ruler, Maharaja Hari Singh, wanted to stay independent but faced a revolt and the threat of an invasion by Muslim tribesman from Pakistan.

In October 1947, Hari Singh hastily signed an instrument of accession to India in return for military aid, and the territory became a battleground.

Simmering discontent with Indian rule boiled over into open revolt in 1989 in which tens of thousands have died.


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## Hari

^^Not sure why Kashmiris supported Indian troops in 1965 and 1999 and why are they actively partcipating in Elections


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## Omar1984

* Turkey&#8217;s help for Azad Kashmir to continue: Erdogan*


Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan visiting Sports Complex in Muzaffarabad.&#8212;Photo by APP 


MUZAFFARABAD: Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan flew into Azad Kashmir capital along with Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani on Monday and inspected several facilities built by his country after the 2005 earthquake.

This is Mr Erdogan&#8217;s second visit to Muzaffarabad in four years. He inaugurated the Khurshid National Library and planted a sapling in its lawn. 

Later, the Turkish leader visited the multi-purpose community hall where students, waving flags of Turkey, Pakistan and Azad Kashmir, greeted him with welcoming slogans. 

AJK President Raja Zulqarnain Khan hosted a reception for the leaders which was also attended by AJK Prime Minister Raja Farooq Haider. 

Mr Erdogan said Muzaffarabad was in a much better condition today than it was four years ago after the earthquake. 

&#8216;It is really heart-warming to see life return to normal in such a short time &#8230; and such exquisite buildings,&#8217; he said. &#8216;Turkey will continue to support Kashmiri brethren,&#8217; he added. 

Mr Erdogan said he could still recall the horrifying scenes that he had seen after the quake. 

Prime Minister Gilani highlighted commonalities in approach on regional issues, urged Turkey to support Pakistan&#8217;s stand on Kashmir and said that it was important to resolve the issue for regional peace. 

Reiterating Pakistans desire to maintain friendly ties with all its neighbours, he said: &#8216;The sacrifices and just stand of Kashmiris will bear fruit.&#8217;

Earlier, Mr Erdogan unveiled a plaque and offered prayers at the Osmania Masjid. 

The Turkish government had approved the construction of the mosque and Khurshid National Library in addition to the huge district headquarters complex, including offices and residential quarters and a multi-purpose community hall and a shopping plaza. 

Turkey has rendered remarkable help in all three post-quake phases &#8211; rescue, relief and reconstruction. 

From retrieving survivors from beneath huge concrete slabs, providing food to building majestic structures, the Turkish government, civic bodies and non-governmental organisations have made the most noticeable contribution towards alleviating the sufferings of the quake survivors. 

APP adds: &#8216;Turkey may be far away &#8230; but its people keep you close to their heart,&#8217; he said. 

Mr Erdogan expressed the hope that Pakistan would soon be able to eradicate terrorism which was having a negative affect on it. &#8216;Let&#8217;s work in solidarity to fight the menace.&#8217;

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## Hari

*Kashmiri groups condemn Pakistan's 1947 invasion*

NEW DELHI: As Pakistan teeters on the precipice of instability, Kashmiri groups, particularly in the UK, appear to be doing their own review of 
history and strategy. For the first time in 62 years, 13 Kashmiri political groups in the UK, under the umbrella of the Kashmiri National Party, passed a resolution against Pakistan's tribal invasion into India in October 1947. 

This is significant as the Kashmiri groups, for the past six decades, have commemorated October 22 as a black day against Indian forces marching into Srinagar in October 1947. It's a quiet but determined turnaround by the Kashmiri diaspora, mostly in the UK, where they have mainly settled after leaving Azad Kashmir. 

Kashmiri representatives said the tribal invasion was designed to force the maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir to join Pakistan. Interestingly, sources said, apart from Kashmiris, a number of Pakistanis were also present in the conference to express support for the cause of Jammu and Kashmir. 

Pushing for independence, the Kashmiris said they were opposed to both Indian and Pakistani policies. 

A Kashmiri representative, Shabir Choudhry, criticised the tribal invasion while Pakistani Kashmiris said that over the years, Kashmiris remained confused about their identity. "We don't know if we are Pakistanis or Kashmiris." 

Given the fact that Pakistan has made the territorial acquisition of Kashmir a form of jihad, this was rejected by many Kashmiris. Their resolution opposed militancy and religion-based politics. There was a general rejection of the "genie of extremism and hatred released in the name of jihad in October 1947 to advance political agenda". 

*Source*

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## holysaturn

Omar1984 said:


> *Kashmiris Observing Black Day Today *
> 
> 
> 
> SRINAGAR: Kashmiris Observing Black Day Today, Kashmiri people on both sides of the LoC and the whole world is observing Black Day today to convey to the international community to reject the illegal occupation of India in its territory.
> 
> The day will be marked with the total strike in the occupied territory. *Call for this has been given by the Conference of All Parties Hurriyat and senior Kashmiri Hurriyet leader Syed Ali Geelani*, Kashmir Media Service reported Monday
> 
> It was on 27 October 1947, when Indian troops invaded Kashmir in clear violation of the subcontinents partition plan and the aspirations of Kashmiris. 
> 
> Senior APHC leader Agha Syed Hassan Al-Moosvi addressing a party meeting in Badgam urged India to flee their intransigence and take steps to resolve the Kashmir dispute once and for all.
> 
> The Indian troops in their fresh act of state terrorism martyred three innocent Kashmiri youth in Shopian Kellar. The officials said one of the martyrs was a division commander of Hizbul Mujahideen.
> 
> People took to the streets in Habba Kadal, Maisuma and Gaw Kadal in Srinagar, at present, contrary to submit to peaceful protesters in the city by force by the troops yesterday.
> 
> Several protesters were injured and the condition of one of them was stated to be critical. Handwara, protests continued against the assassination of a 12th student by Indian troops.



that says it all.we know how people feel abt hurriyat(big loser in recent elections)
Why People Defied Election Boycott Call In Jammu And Kashmir By Ghulam Nabi


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## holysaturn

Hari said:


> *Kashmiri groups condemn Pakistan's 1947 invasion*
> 
> NEW DELHI: As Pakistan teeters on the precipice of instability, Kashmiri groups, particularly in the UK, appear to be doing their own review of
> history and strategy. For the first time in 62 years, 13 Kashmiri political groups in the UK, under the umbrella of the Kashmiri National Party, passed a resolution against Pakistan's tribal invasion into India in October 1947.
> 
> This is significant as the Kashmiri groups, for the past six decades, have commemorated October 22 as a black day against Indian forces marching into Srinagar in October 1947. It's a quiet but determined turnaround by the Kashmiri diaspora, mostly in the UK, where they have mainly settled after leaving Azad Kashmir.
> 
> Kashmiri representatives said the tribal invasion was designed to force the maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir to join Pakistan. Interestingly, sources said, apart from Kashmiris, a number of Pakistanis were also present in the conference to express support for the cause of Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> Pushing for independence, the Kashmiris said they were opposed to both Indian and Pakistani policies.
> 
> A Kashmiri representative, Shabir Choudhry, criticised the tribal invasion while Pakistani Kashmiris said that over the years, Kashmiris remained confused about their identity. "We don't know if we are Pakistanis or Kashmiris."
> 
> Given the fact that Pakistan has made the territorial acquisition of Kashmir a form of jihad, this was rejected by many Kashmiris. Their resolution opposed militancy and religion-based politics. There was a general rejection of the "genie of extremism and hatred released in the name of jihad in October 1947 to advance political agenda".
> 
> *Source*



media works................everywherefor everyone


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## Omar1984

Pictures of Turkey's Prime Minister's visit to Azad Kashmir:

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## pkd

Hari said:


> ^^Not sure why Kashmiris supported Indian troops in 1965 and 1999 and why are they actively partcipating in Elections



Election under occupation has no credibility.

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## r3alist

good stuff


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## holysaturn

pkd said:


> Election under has no credibility.



only if people dont vote in large nos.if elections r not credible then what is.(u want people to drive out militants or freedom fighters on their own)even that has happened.
Gujjars seek Bharat Ratna for girl who killed militant -  National News ? News ? MSN India


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## pkd

holysaturn said:


> only if people dont vote in large nos.if elections r not credible then what is[/url]



Thesse claims are made by india, a party to a dispute, holds no value.

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## pkd

Volence Update

*Indian Opression Stats:*
From Jan. 1989 to September 30, 2009 Total Killings * 93,018 
Custodial Killings 6,962 
Civilians Arrested 116,437 
Structures Arsoned/Destroyed 105,758 
Women Widowed 22,706 
Children Orphaned 107,280 
Women gang-raped / Molested


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## manishmaithani

pkd said:


> Election under occupation has no credibility.



India is not pakistan and People of india believe in democrasy.election commission in india is free governing body.


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## adrenalin

pkd said:


> Election under occupation has no credibility.



I can say the same for Balochistan


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## pkd

manishmaithani said:


> India is not pakistan and People of india believe in democrasy.election commission in india is free governing body.



Yes in india, not in kashmir, a disputed area according to UN resolutions.


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## pkd

adrenalin said:


> I can say the same for Balochistan


Don't troll. Stick to the topic.
Balochistan is not a disputed area.

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## dabong1

Hari said:


> *Kashmiri groups condemn Pakistan's 1947 invasion*
> 
> NEW DELHI: As Pakistan teeters on the precipice of instability, Kashmiri groups, particularly in the UK, appear to be doing their own review of
> history and strategy. For the first time in 62 years, 13 Kashmiri political groups in the UK, under the umbrella of the Kashmiri National Party, passed a resolution against Pakistan's tribal invasion into India in October 1947.
> 
> This is significant as the Kashmiri groups, for the past six decades, have commemorated October 22 as a black day against Indian forces marching into Srinagar in October 1947. It's a quiet but determined turnaround by the Kashmiri diaspora, mostly in the UK, where they have mainly settled after leaving Azad Kashmir.
> 
> Kashmiri representatives said the tribal invasion was designed to force the maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir to join Pakistan. Interestingly, sources said, apart from Kashmiris, a number of Pakistanis were also present in the conference to express support for the cause of Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> Pushing for independence, the Kashmiris said they were opposed to both Indian and Pakistani policies.
> 
> A Kashmiri representative, Shabir Choudhry, criticised the tribal invasion while Pakistani Kashmiris said that over the years, Kashmiris remained confused about their identity. "We don't know if we are Pakistanis or Kashmiris."
> 
> Given the fact that Pakistan has made the territorial acquisition of Kashmir a form of jihad, this was rejected by many Kashmiris. Their resolution opposed militancy and religion-based politics. There was a general rejection of the "genie of extremism and hatred released in the name of jihad in October 1947 to advance political agenda".
> 
> *Source*



So the UK kashmiris have a greater say in what is right and wrong in kashmir then the ones that live there?
If the kashmiris love india so much you will a referendum on the issue then....wont you?

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## Omar1984



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## dabong1

adrenalin said:


> I can say the same for Balochistan



And i can say the same about Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram, Nagaland, and Tripura,punjab ect.

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## Hari

pkd said:


> Volence Update
> 
> *Indian Opression Stats:*
> From Jan. 1989 to September 30, 2009 Total Killings * 93,018
> Custodial Killings 6,962
> Civilians Arrested 116,437
> Structures Arsoned/Destroyed 105,758
> Women Widowed 22,706
> Children Orphaned 107,280
> Women gang-raped / Molested



Just for your Information 

Out of 1508 Human rights violation cases reported against army [during 1990-2008] 1453 cases were found to be false/baseless by national Human rights commission. 35 cases were found true in which 100 personnel [39 officers and 61 other ranks] were punished. Rest of the cases are under investigation.


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## Nemesis

Pakistani media is amusing. I always thought it were Pakistani tribals who invaded Kashmir first.


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## Comet

Ban k rahe ga Pakistan...... Ban k rahe ga Pakistan....... Ban k rahe ga Pakistan....... Ban k rahe ga Pakistan....... Ban k rahe ga Pakistan.......


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## blueoval79

umairp said:


> Ban k rahe ga Pakistan...... Ban k rahe ga Pakistan....... Ban k rahe ga Pakistan....... Ban k rahe ga Pakistan....... Ban k rahe ga Pakistan.......



Miyan ...aur kitne Pakistan banaoge...........Sari duniya...ek se hi pareshan hai....LOL

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## Hari

*Reason why a few Kashmiris raise Anti-India slogans*

NEW DELHI: Ever since May, when the bodies of two women washed up near Shopian, journalists have chronicled the multiple failures of administration and policing that allowed the tragic deaths to spark off some of the worst street violence ever seen in Jammu and Kashmir.

Following the release of the findings of the Justice Muzaffar Jan Commission of Enquiry on Friday, the Jammu and Kashmir government has announced that it intends to prosecute four police officials for some of those failures.

But both journalists and the Jammu and Kashmir government have maintained a stoic silence on one institution blamed by Justice Jan for spreading falsehood and inciting violence: the media itself.

Stories fabricated? 


Justice Jan&#8217;s report highlights disturbing evidence that some journalists may have fabricated elements of their stories.

Early in June, several Srinagar-based journalists reported that one victim&#8217;s husband had received a call from her at 7 p.m. on May 29. During the call, the accounts said, the victim reported that she was being chased by CRPF personnel.

In their testimony to the Jan Commission, though, the victim&#8217;s husband and her brother made it clear that she had never owned a mobile phone, a fact first reported in this newspaper. Jammu and Kashmir police investigators attached to the Commission studied 32,686 cellphone calls made in Shopian on May 29, and were able to establish that none was made to or from any phone that may have been in the victim&#8217;s possession.

Efforts were also made by sections of the media to suggest that the local police may have sought to hush up the case on the orders of their superior. Journalists in particular turned on Constable Mohammad Yaseen, who was reported to have made several phone calls to superiors even as a search for the victims&#8217; bodies was underway &#8212; evidence, it was argued, of the unusual interest of his bosses in the case.

In fact, the Commission found, Mr. Yaseen had made only four calls during the whole day and none between 10 p.m. on June 29, when the search for the victims began, until 6 a.m. on June 30, when the bodies were found.

Local resident Jamal-ud-Din Wani, claimed by the media to be an eyewitness to the killings, was alleged to have been abducted after the bodies were found. The Jan Commission found him living in a tent at the hamlet of Dehgam, close to Shopian, where he works as a watchman at a local seminary.

For the most part, Justice Jan found, the media misrepresented forensic evidence. Media accounts insisted that both women appeared to have been badly beaten and gang raped. However, the Jan Commission states, pathologists found no evidence to support the proposition of gang rape. Moreover, only one victim&#8217;s body was found to bear visible external injuries. Claims that one victim was pregnant at the time of her death, Justice Jan states, were also wrong.

Perhaps in order to buttress claims that the two women had been raped before they were killed, some journalists asserted that their clothes were torn. However, witnesses interviewed by the Jan Commission said that the women&#8217;s Feran and shalwar were intact.

Most disturbing, though, is Justice Jan&#8217;s finding that the media incited hatred by broadcasting communal propaganda.

Based on the accounts of individuals claiming to be eyewitnesses, newspapers said that one victim&#8217;s forehead had been smeared with sindoor &#8212; an allegation that suggested that the rapists were Hindus, and the rape itself macabre religion-driven hate crime. However, the Commission noted, the red marks on her forehead were in fact blood from a head wound. &#8220;The flow of blood,&#8221; the report states, &#8220;was shamefully distorted and projected as a mark of sindoor.&#8221;

Noting that this kind of reporting has fuelled violence in Jammu and Kashmir, Justice Jan has suggested that &#8220;firm guidelines are made to ensure that, before publication of any news, the authenticity of the news be verified.&#8221; 

*Source*


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## dabong1

Nemesis said:


> Pakistani media is amusing. I always thought it were Pakistani tribals who invaded Kashmir first.



It was the indian army that invaded first.......the tribals invading first is a made up indian story that is more funny then the usual indian media brinwashing stories that we hear.


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## Comet

blueoval79 said:


> Miyan ...aur kitne Pakistan banaoge...........Sari duniya...ek se hi pareshan hai....LOL



Nahin wohi Pakistan hai... abadi ziada ho gae hai to thora enlarge karna hai.


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## boxer_B

Omar1984 said:


> *Kashmiris Observing Black Day Today *
> 
> 
> 
> SRINAGAR: Kashmiris Observing Black Day Today, Kashmiri people on both sides of the LoC and the whole world is observing Black Day today to convey to the international community to reject the illegal occupation of India in its territory.
> 
> The day will be marked with the total strike in the occupied territory. Call for this has been given by the Conference of All Parties Hurriyat and senior Kashmiri Hurriyet leader Syed Ali Geelani, Kashmir Media Service reported Monday
> 
> It was on 27 October 1947, when Indian troops invaded Kashmir in clear violation of the subcontinent&#8217;s partition plan and the aspirations of Kashmiris. &#8221;
> 
> Senior APHC leader Agha Syed Hassan Al-Moosvi addressing a party meeting in Badgam urged India to flee their intransigence and take steps to resolve the Kashmir dispute once and for all.
> 
> The Indian troops in their fresh act of state terrorism martyred three innocent Kashmiri youth in Shopian Kellar. The officials said one of the martyrs was a division commander of Hizbul Mujahideen.
> 
> People took to the streets in Habba Kadal, Maisuma and Gaw Kadal in Srinagar, at present, contrary to submit to peaceful protesters in the city by force by the troops yesterday.
> 
> Several protesters were injured and the condition of one of them was stated to be critical. Handwara, protests continued against the assassination of a 12th student by Indian troops.



*Huge anti-Pak protests in P-O-K, violence erupts *

Islamabad, Oct 24:

Kashmiris from all walks of life observed a &#8220;Black Day&#8221; in Pakistan Kashmir, including capital Muzaffarabad, on the occasion of the 62nd anniversary of the invasion of the area by Pakistani army men disguised as tribesmen from the North West Frontier of Province (NWFP), known as the Lashkars.

A large number of people, carrying black flags and protest placards, participated in demonstrations held in various parts of Pakistan Kashmir.

Among the participants were Arif Shahid, the general secretary of the All Party National Alliance (APNA), Baltistan National Front leader Nawaz Khan Naji and Abdul Hamid Khan, the Chairman of Balawaristan National Front, besides others.

So vociferous were the protests by the almost 800-odd participants, that security forces deployed to ensure maintenance of law and order, had to use teargas shells and firing in the air to disperse them.

http://www.zopag.com/news/huge-antipak-protests-in-***-violence-erupts/8835.html


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## Nemesis

> It was the indian army that invaded first.......the tribals invading first is a made up indian story that is more funny then the usual indian media brinwashing stories that we hear.



 Yeah okay. You guys just make up things as you think of them, dont you?

India invaded Kashmir at the behest of the ruler of Kashmir after his kingdom was attacked by Pakistani tribals. Fact.


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## Hari

> It was the indian army that invaded first.......the tribals invading first is a made up indian story that is more funny then the usual indian media brinwashing stories that we hear



There is no point in arguing to you still Here is the link from a neutral source

*Click here*


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## dabong1

Nemesis said:


> Yeah okay. You guys just make up things as you think of them, dont you?



Just like you guys



Nemesis said:


> India invaded Kashmir at the behest of the ruler of Kashmir after his kingdom was attacked by Pakistani tribals. Fact.



Why not let the people of kashmir have a vote and let them choose what they want......scared of who they might vote for?


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## Omar1984

From Tehran Times:

*Why Kashmiris observe October 27 as Black Day
*

Kashmiri people on both sides of the Line of Control and across the globe observe October 27 as Black Day and consider it the blackest day in their history. This is the Day when India landed its army in Jammu and Kashmir, in total disregard of the Indian Independence Act and Partition Plan of 1947. The Indian Independence Act and Partition Plan of 1947 had stated that the Indian British Colony would be divided into two sovereign states, India, with Hindu-majority areas, and Pakistan, with Muslim-majority areas of western provinces and east Bengal. 


From day one, the people of Kashmir did not accept Indias illegal occupation and started an armed struggle in 1948, which forced India to approach the UN Security Council to seek its help to settle the dispute. The UN Security Council called for a ceasefire, a demarcation of the ceasefire line, demilitarization of the state, and a free and impartial plebiscite to be conducted under the supervision of the world body. Although the ceasefire and demarcation of the ceasefire line were implemented, the calls for the demilitarization of the occupied territory and a free and impartial plebiscite under UN supervision were never realized. 

Indias rulers promised before the UN to resolve the dispute and to provide the people of Kashmir their basic right of self-determination, but later backed away from their commitments. India has been putting the peace, security, and stability of all South Asia at risk through its continued rigidity and stubbornness and refusal to respond positively to the efforts made by the international community to settle the Kashmir dispute for the past six decades. 

Disappointed at the failure of all the efforts to resolve the Kashmir dispute through peaceful means, the people of occupied Kashmir launched a massive uprising in 1989 to secure their right to self-determination. This movement gathered momentum with the passage of time and pushed the Indian authorities to the wall, forcing them to sit down at the negotiation table with Pakistan in January 2004. The negotiation process continued until it was stalled after the Mumbai attacks of November 26, 2008, when India, without any substantive evidence, accused Pakistan and its intelligence agencies of being responsible for the attacks. 

It should be noted that Pakistan demonstrated considerable flexibility in the dialogue process by floating various proposals, such as demilitarization, self-governance, and joint management, to settle the conflict over Kashmir, but Indias inflexible approach remained the biggest hurdle in solving the Kashmir issue. The situation in the occupied territory remains unchanged as the confidence-building measures and the dialogue process could not provide the Kashmiri people any respite from the Indian atrocities. 

India has exhausted all its resources and means but has not been able to deter Kashmiris from continuing their liberation struggle. It has given a free hand to its troops and police to subject peaceful protesters to brute force. The troops have been setting new records of human rights violations by killing innocent people, arresting the youth, disgracing and harassing women, and setting residential houses on fire with impunity. 

The Indian troops have killed over 92,000 Kashmiris, widowed more than 25,000 women, orphaned more than 100,000 children, and molested about 100,00 Kashmiri women over the past 20 years. The whereabouts of thousands of innocent Kashmiris, who disappeared in the custody of troops, are yet to be made known while hundreds of unmarked graves have been discovered in the occupied territory that are believed to be those of the disappeared Kashmiris. All this mayhem is being carried out with the protection of draconian laws, by virtue of which any person can be killed or put behind bars without any accountability. 

Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Asia Watch, and other international humanitarian organizations have been raising concerns over human rights violations in Indian-occupied Kashmir in their regular reports. Even the European Union Parliament, during a session in Strasbourg on July 10, 2008, unanimously passed a resolution calling upon the Indian government to urgently conduct an independent and impartial probe into the issue of the discovery of mass graves in the territory. It also strongly condemned unlawful killings, enforced disappearances, torture, rape, and other human rights abuses, which have been taking place at the hands of the occupation troops in Jammu and Kashmir since 1989. 

It was yet another exposition of Indias callousness that Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, on Indian Independence Day this year, tried to hoodwink the international community by stating that the elections in Kashmir had rendered the freedom movement irrelevant. The mammoth anti-India protest demonstrations, which millions of people of Indian-occupied Kashmir participated in last year, should be taken as the Kashmiris referendum against the illegal Indian occupation of their homeland. 

These are the reasons which compel Kashmiris to observe October 27 as Black Day. The observance is meant to send a loud and clear message to the international community to pay attention to the misery of the Kashmiri people, to help stop human rights violations in the occupied territory, and to play its role in bringing about a solution of the Kashmir dispute in accordance with the Kashmiri peoples aspirations. It is also a call to India to read the writing on the wall, to accept the realities on the ground, and to adopt a realistic approach to settle the dispute for the greater interests of the people of the region.


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## Hari

> Why Kashmiris observe October 27 as Black Day



The writer is a senior editor at the *Kashmir Media Service*, Islamabad. He can be reached at razamalik849@******. 

Isnt this a very well known anti-Indian agency?


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## Omar1984

India's Prime Minister is scheduled to visit Indian Occupied Kashmir tomorrow and already there is a strike in Indian Occupied Kashmir, while Pakistan's Prime Minister frequently visits Azad Kashmir and is welcomed by everyone. He even took Turkey's Prime minister with him to Azad Kashmir. 

Check this thread: http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...hmir-continue-says-prime-minister-turkey.html

Has the Indian Prime Minister interacted with the Kashmiri people like Pakistan's Prime Minister has.

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## Hari

Omar1984 said:


> India's Prime Minister is scheduled to visit Indian Occupied Kashmir tomorrow and already there is a strike in Indian Occupied Kashmir, while Pakistan's Prime Minister frequently visits Azad Kashmir and is welcomed by everyone. He even took Turkey's Prime minister with him to Azad Kashmir.



So there's no Indian sponsored terrorism in Pakistan


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## Hari

dabong1 said:


> And i can say the same about Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram, Nagaland, and Tripura,punjab ect.



Only this much states, There are a few more states in India


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## Nemesis

> Why not let the people of kashmir have a vote and let them choose what they want......scared of who they might vote for?



So since you can't prove that Kashmir was first invaded by the Indian army, you start the canard of plebiscite? That's just pathetic debating skills. 

Here, from a neutral source -



> The first Indo-Pakistani war started after armed tribesmen from Pakistan's north-west frontier province invaded Kashmir in October 1947. Besieged both by a revolt in his state and by the invasion, the Maharaja requested armed assistance from the government of India. In return he acceded to India, handing over powers of defence, communication and foreign affairs.



BBC NEWS | India Pakistan | Timeline

So, what were you saying? Something about Indian media brainwashing stories? 

It is obvious who has been brainwashed.



> And i can say the same about Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram, Nagaland, and Tripura,punjab ect.



This is no separatist sentiment in either Meghalaya or Arunachal. If there is, it is no negligible that it has no impact in the mainstream. In assam, the Ulfa is all but finished. In fact the biggest headache for the people of Assam is the S-Ulfa or the surrendered Ulfa. The same can be said of Punjab and Mizoram. As far as nagaland goes, there is a cease fire between the main separatist group and the central government. The only state that can be described as a separatist hot bed is Manipur. And Tripura? Seriously? 

Really, as i said before, when confronted with facts, you guys just make things up, don't you? EPIC FAIL.

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## Skeptic

Nemesis said:


> So since you can't prove that Kashmir was first invaded by the Indian army, you start the canard of plebiscite? That's just pathetic debating skills.
> 
> Here, from a neutral source -
> 
> 
> 
> BBC NEWS | India Pakistan | Timeline
> 
> So, what were you saying? Something about Indian media brainwashing stories?
> 
> It is obvious who has been brainwashed.
> 
> 
> 
> This is no separatist sentiment in either Meghalaya or Arunachal. If there is, it is no negligible that it has no impact in the mainstream. In assam, the Ulfa is all but finished. In fact the biggest headache for the people of Assam is the S-Ulfa or the surrendered Ulfa. The same can be said of Punjab and Mizoram. As far as nagaland goes, there is a cease fire between the main separatist group and the central government. The only state that can be described as a separatist hot bed is Manipur. And Tripura? Seriously?
> 
> Really, as i said before, when confronted with facts, you guys just make things up, don't you? EPIC FAIL.



These are not worth it. 

90% of Pakistanis it seems (Including Asim, Dabong etc - champions of Kashmir cause on this forum) believe that UN resolution has provisions for an Independent Kashmir.

How much more delusional and brainwashed can one be. I found out in a discussion and since then refused to get into a debate over Kashmir with individuals given to misinformation. Best part is they will continue to live in their delusional world despite confrontation.

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## PlanetWarrior

Skeptic said:


> These are not worth it.
> 
> 90% of Pakistanis it seems (Including Asim, Dabong etc - champions of Kashmir cause on this forum) believe that UN resolution has provisions for an Independent Kashmir.
> 
> How much more delusional and brainwashed can one be. I found out in a discussion and since then refused to get into a debate over Kashmir with individuals given to misinformation. Best part is they will continue to live in their delusional world despite confrontation.



You sadly are mistaken brother. 90% of the Pakistanis on this forum mistakenly believe that Kashmir belongs to Pakistan and that India should just hand over the whole of Kashmir to Pakistan. That is their delusion. Offcourse in reality 90% of Pakistanis do not care about the issue of Kashmir. They are happy with the status quo and are more concerned with issues which affects Pakistan itself. Then again this forum is usually visited by certain Pakistanis whose blind nationalism outweighs any sense of logic. Some of the comments relating to other countries and denials about Pakistan is laughable and established fact becomes fiction and vice versa. Their version of history has been re-written endlessly and in 10 years time we should not be surprised to hear from some Pakistanis that the civil war in Pakistan was a non-event and that Pakistan was actually fighting a war against the Taliban in Afghanistan. Dr Goebels once said that "if you repeat something often enough it may cause a few to blindly believe the statement. Those few in turn are better weapons in propaganda than the mightiest of weapons in war." How true his perception proved when a few Nazis were required to slaughter millions of Jews. Pakistan's propaganda machine clearly has adequete conversions to its cause. Sometimes however those that are used to demean your enemy with blind hatred, lies and propaganda turn around to bite you with their blind hatred and brainwashed misguidance. Surely Pakistan should know that by now and should stop trying to poke its finger up India's nose by stirring wanton hatred and unfounded negative perceptions about their issues with India.


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## JusticeMuzaffar

JusticeMuzaffar
For more insight on this topic please visit Thread 

three cheers to president zardari yet not the whole hog topic 
Leave your comments and point of view

you can also visit 
Gilgit Baltistan Political Restructuring


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## JusticeMuzaffar

JusticeMuzaffar
For more insight on this topic please visit Thread 

three cheers to president zardari yet not the whole hog topic 
Leave your comments and point of view

you can also visit 
Gilgit Baltistan Political Restructuring


----------



## Omar1984

* Black Day Anniversary for the Kashmiris*

"...people of Kashmir are yearning for peace, justice and freedom. They want a just and dignified peace that guarantees total freedom from foreign occupation and alien domination. Their struggle to achieve that right to self-determination will not be extinguished until India and Pakistan accept its exercise by the people of Jammu and Kashmir." 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yesterday (October 27, 2009), Kashmiri-Canadians from coast to coast and Kashmiris all over the world observed 62nd anniversary of Indian invasion of Kashmir as a Black Day. It was exactly 62 years ago, on October 27th, 1947, when the Indian troops invaded and occupied a sovereign nation of Jammu and Kashmir by deception. The government of India proclaimed that her forces would help to restore normalcy in the state of Jammu and Kashmir and allow the people to exercise the right to self-determination in accordance with their freely expressed will, unhindered by any threat of internal disorder or external aggression.

Fraudulently, India did the exact opposite. Those who have followed developments in Kashmir know that the ongoing struggle for freedom began in 1931 when people came out in open revolt against then autocratic and tyrannical regime; they had nearly succeeded in over-throwing the regime when India stepped in 1947 to take over the tyrant disposed regime, faced with stiff resistance from the locals against its invasion  India transformed Kashmir into a purely military camp, killing hundreds of civilians. 

The first war between India and Pakistan over Kashmir broke out in 1947. In 1948 India took the Kashmir issue to the United Nations Security Council, which constituted a special commission  the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan  with the mandate to independently investigate the matter and help the contending parties reach a negotiated settlement. The most important outcome of the deliberations of the commission were two resolutions passed by the Security Council on August 13th, 1948 and January 15th, 1949 respectively, calling upon the governments of India and Pakistan to hold a free, fair and impartial plebiscite under UN auspices in order to enable the people of Kashmir to decide whether they wanted to join India or Pakistan.

This was followed by commitments on part of the Indian leadership to allow the people of Kashmir to determine their future. In a statement to the Indian parliament on February 12th, 1951, Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru said: We had given our pledge to the people of Kashmir and subsequently to the United Nations. We stood by it and we stand by it today. Let the people of Kashmir decide. 

Failing to legalize its occupation, on August 9th, 1953, New Delhi arrested then prime minister of Jammu and Kashmir and popular leader Sheikh Abdullah in a coup détat  the occupying forces killed more than 1,500 defenseless Kashmiri civilians to silence the massive revolt against its occupation. Since then, India has tried to gradually strengthen its grip over the occupied region by means fair and foul unmindful of its constitutional commitment about the future status of the occupied state. 1987s rigged elections and Indias refusal to honour her commitment about the right to self-determination pushed the people of Kashmir from passive resistance to militancy against state-sponsored terrorism. 

Since October 1989, the 700,000 strong Indian forces have killed more than 100,000 Kashmiris to silence the peoples demand for freedom, justice, and respect for human rights. They continue to carry out arbitrary detention, summary executions, custodial killings, extrajudicial executions, enforced disappearances, rape, sexual exploitation, torture and fake encounters. Generations of Kashmiris have grown up under the shadow of the gun; not a single family is unaffected; property worth hundreds of millions of dollars has been destroyed and the suffering and devastation continues unabated, sadly drawing no significant attention from the international community. 

Impunity has become a license for the Indian occupation forces to wreak havoc with the lives of Kashmiris. The deliberate and unprovoked attacks and other patterns of abuse have all become too frequent to report. No perpetrator has ever been prosecuted in a real manner, despite the fact that such crimes have been extensively documented by many international human rights organizations including Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. 

In 2008, when India attempted to change the demography of the state of Jammu and Kashmir followed by economic blockade against the people of Kashmir it backfired; triggering tsunami of protests across Kashmir, chanting: we want freedom, a classic peoples movement. The Indian occupation forces fired indiscriminately on the protesters, killing hundreds of civilians, including a senior freedom movement leader Sheikh Abdul Aziz and injuring thousands more. 

This year was no different, when the occupying Indian troops kidnapped and killed 17-year-old Aasiya Jan and her sister-in-law, Nilofar Shakeel, 22; their corpses were found floating in a shallow stream on May 30th, 2009 after disappearing from their familys apple orchards in the city of Shopian in Indian-administered Kashmir. Subsequently, the occupation forces attempt to cover it up set off months of massive demonstrations, several protesters were killed and hundreds injured in pitched street battles between anti-India demonstrators chanting: we want freedom, and the Indian occupation troops using brute force to get the situation under control. 

Lydia Polgreen wrote for The New York Times on August 16th, 2009: Little more than 12 hours later their battered bodies were found in the stream. Asiya, a 17-year-old high school student, had been badly beaten. Blood streamed from her nose and a sharp gash in her forehead. She and her 22-year-old sister-in-law, Nilofa[r], had been gang raped before their deaths. It is now the focal point for seemingly bottomless Kashmiri rage at the continuing presence of roughly 500,000 Indian security forces India says Kashmir is a free part of a free country, said Majid Khan, a 20-year-old unemployed man who has joined the stone-throwing mobs. If that is so, why are we being brutalized? Why are women gang raped? 

Last two years have seen spontaneous, massive and non-violent protests where virtually everyone young and old, men and women, boys and girls are out on the streets protesting against Indias continued occupation. Such  on and off  protests have totally re-energized the Kashmiri freedom struggle into a classic peoples movement, which has stunned the Indian government. 

The perception that the Kashmir issue is a bilateral matter between India and Pakistan is unfounded. Kashmir is not a territorial or bilateral issue. It is about the future of 15 million people with their own history of independence; their own language and culture. This has been an explicit explanation for the failure to resolve the Kashmir issue through on-again and off-again bilateral dialogue for the past 62 years. The people of Kashmir have lost complete faith in the bilateral process of India and Pakistan and their ability to resolve the issue. 

The 15 million people of Kashmir are yearning for peace, justice and freedom. They want a just and dignified peace that guarantees total freedom from foreign occupation and alien domination. Their struggle to achieve that right to self-determination will not be extinguished until India and Pakistan accept its exercise by the people of Jammu and Kashmir. 

The unprecedented sacrifices and suffering experienced by the people against this volte-face in terms of death and destruction, life and property, torture and persecution, rape and repression over the years, particularly during the past 20 years, is much too great to go unrewarded. The Kashmiri freedom movement is now entering its twenty-first year with firm and unwavering courage and determination in the face of unspeakable suffering and injustices to achieve the right to self-determination. The ground reality is very encouraging as the people are determined to achieve freedom, therefore, the struggle is in full momentum and the demand for a UN supervised plebiscite is at an all-time high. 

The right to self-determination is the cornerstone of the United Nations system that underpins the contemporary international order. Its unquestioned acceptance has been established by core international instruments including the Charter of the United Nations, the two Covenants on Civil and Political and Economic, Social and Cultural rights and the declaration adopted by General Assembly resolution 1514. 

International human rights fora continue to reaffirm the validity and significance of the right of peoples to self-determination in situations of foreign occupation and alien domination. Contemporary international developments further testify the importance of this right, and its centrality to the international system. 

Effective exercise of a peoples right to self-determination is an essential pre-requisite for the genuine exercise of other human rights and freedoms. Only when self-determination has been achieved can a people take the measures necessary to ensure human dignity, the full enjoyment of all rights including the political, economic, social and cultural progress without any form of discrimination. 

The right to self-determination is thus the raison detre of the contemporary international order and an absolute must for the progressive realization of all fundamental human rights. The right must be exercised freely without covert influence, coercion or repression. It cannot be exercised under conditions of foreign occupation and it is non-lapsable. 

It is high time India realized the fact that control over a region alone does not mean sovereignty over a chunk of land. It is the people who make up a nation and if they are perpetually alienated, any territorial supremacy achieved through brute force alone can never guarantee long-term peace. 

The conflict in Kashmir is a political and human tragedy and the world community, including India and Pakistan, have overlooked this critically important human dimension of the issue. The Kashmiris demand is simple and in accordance with the international law: implementation of the United Nations resolutions for a plebiscite to determine the future status of the disputed region in a peaceful and democratic way. Whatever the outcome, it will be impartial and binding for all the three parties  India, Pakistan and the people of Kashmir. 

For New Delhi to help resolve the Kashmir issue through peaceful negotiations, following actions are necessary and urgent: 

India must cease all military and paramilitary actions against civilians in Kashmir. 
India must end torture, custodial killings and extra-judicial executions of prisoners immediately. 
India must withdraw its military and paramilitary forces from all the urban areas immediately. 
India must release all the prisoners immediately arrested or captured in connection with the resistance movement and false cases instituted against them under the so-called emergency laws must be withdrawn. 
India must annul the Jammu and Kashmir Public Safety Act, the National Security Act and the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, with respect to Kashmir, immediately. 
India must bring to justice all those killers and murderers who have committed horrendous crimes against innocents in Kashmir during the past 20 years. Or transfer all such cases to the International Criminal Court (ICC) for impartial justice. 
India must continue to help the displaced Kashmiri Hindu families to resettle in their homes in Kashmir and provide them all necessary assistance. 
India must allow International human rights monitors and the world media to visit Kashmir for their investigative work. 
Last but not least, India, Pakistan and the people of Kashmir together with help from the international community can resolve the Kashmir issue peacefully; it may be time that India return to the negotiating table to resolve the 62-year-old Kashmir issue; this is essential for regional peace and security. 
Informed and conscientious Canadians can play a vital role in the education process by interacting with parliamentarians and the media. In addition, concerned Canadians can write to the UN Secretary General, NGOs, and call or write to the Prime Minister and Foreign Minister to voice their concern about systematic human rights abuses in Indian-administered Kashmir. 

The cause for which the people of Kashmir are struggling is a just one, and deserves support from all those who cherish peace and justice.

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## Omar1984

http://www.ptinews.com/news/351241_Life-paralysed-across-Kashmir-valley-due-to-strike

Srinagar, Oct 28 (PTI) Normal life was crippled across Kashmir valley today in response to a strike called by separatists to protest the visit of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

Singh along with UPA chairperson Sonia Gandhi and several cabinet colleagues including Railway Minister Mamata Banerjee, Health Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad and New and Renewable Energy Minister Farooq Abdullah arrived here on a two day visit this morning.

Shops and business establishments, educational institutions, banks and courts remained closed and traffic was off the roads in Srinagar and other major towns of the valley in response to the strike call given by hardline faction of Hurriyat Conference headed by Syed Ali Shah Geelani and supported by various other separatist organisations.

Yesterday, Kashmir valley observed a general strike called by separatists against the 62nd anniversary of the landing of Indian troops in the state.


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## IBRIS

*PM opens first rail link between Jammu and Kashmir*

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has inaugurated the train service between Anantnag-Qazigund section, which will connect the Kashmir valley to the rest of the country and is making an important speech on the dialogue his government has promised to the state.

Singh, who is undertaking a two-day visit to the state, the first during his second tenure, flagged off the new train service on the 18-km line which will link the valley with Srinagar and other important places.

He is addressing a public meeting in which he may speak on the dialogue with all shades of opinion in the state.

Home Minister P Chidambaram had recently said that the government would hold talks with every section of political opinion in the state through "quiet dialogue, quiet diplomacy" to find a political solution to the Kashmir problem that may be "unique".

Several Union Ministers including Ghulam Nabi Azad, Farooq Abdulah, Mamata Banerjee and Chief Minister Omar Abdullah are attending the inaugural ceremony.

With the opening of the line, the Railways have completed 119 km long Qazigund-Baramulla section of the Kashmir rail project.
PM opens first rail link between Jammu and Kashmir- Hindustan Times


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## IBRIS

*A curtain raiser on Kashmir railway link*

When Prime Minister Manmohan Singh will flag off train on the 18-km stretch of Qazigund-Anantnag on Wednesday, he will be sixth prime minister to lead such railway ceremonies in Jammu and Kashmir.

Prior to Singh, five Prime Ministers --- Indira Gandhi, her son Rajiv Gandhi, I K Gujral, Deve Gowda and Atal Bihari Vajpayee -- besides UPA chairperson Sonia Gandhi have been part of the ceremonies related to the project.

It was in 1898 that the then Dogra rulers conceived a rail link between Kashmir and the rest of the country. It took more than nine decades to push for the dream project when in 1983 Indira Gandhi laid a foundation stone for 54-km Jammu -Udhampur stretch.

It was promised that the rail link thereafter would be extended by 290 km to Baramulla in the Valley. For fours years there was no progress and it was in 1986 that Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi performed the same ritual for the second time in the same Udhampur town. Railway minister Suresh Kalmadi, who announced the same plan again in 1995, followed Gandhi.

In 1996, Prime Minister P V Narsimha Roa sanctioned Rs 2600 crores for the extension of the rail link from Udhampur to Baramulla, covering 290 kms. The Congress, however, lost the power at the Centre.

Rao's successor Deve Gowda laid another ritualistic foundation stone in March 1997, again in Udampur. Just two months later, his successor I K Gujral flew all the way to the Valley for the same ceremony, this time at Baramulla.

For 19 years, the link to Kashmir could not see the light of the day. In 2003, it was Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee who declared it a national project. The railway project that still remains incomplete witnesses piecemeal inauguration now and then, even for as small a stretch as 17 km.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in 2005 finally inaugurated a stretch -- 54 km long Jammu Udhampur -- of this 344 km rail link.

The remaining project has been divided into three parts - 41 km long Udhampur to Katra, 130 km long Katra to Qazigund and 119 km Qazigund to Baramulla. In the final stage, it will stretch from north to south Kashmir.

The 66 km long section of Qazigund Baramulla - from Anantnag to Mazhama -was inaugurated by the PM Manmohan Singh in October last year, Sonia Gandhi later doing the honours of inaugurating the 35-km long section from Mazhom to Baramulla early this year.
A curtain raiser on Kashmir railway link- Hindustan Times

---------- Post added at 05:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:48 AM ----------

*Farooq hopes train in Kashmir will bring development*

Former chief minister and Minister for New and Renewable Energy Farooq Abdullah Wednesday hoped that the Kashmir Valley would soon be linked by train to the rest of India.

"I hope the train will soon connect the valley with the rest of the country. There are lots of places within and outside the railways has to link with the state. This will end many of our difficulties. I hope we will see the train from Kashmir reaching other parts of the country soon," Abdullah said.

"This will generate employment for lots of Kashmiris and bring development in the backward state," he said in his short speech.

He was speaking on the occasion of the inauguration of a train service linking Qazigund to Anantnag district. This will connect south Kashmir with Srinagar and other parts of the north of the valley.

Abdullah demanded that the minimum qualification to get lower grade employment in railways should be Class 8 for backward places like Jammu and Kashmir.

He expressed his gratitude to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and United Progressive Alliance chairperson Sonia Gandhi for taking out time to visit the valley to flag off the rail service.

Farooq hopes train in Kashmir will bring development- Hindustan Times


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## IBRIS

*Normal life paralysed across Kashmir valley due to strike*

Normal life was crippled across Kashmir valley on Wednesday in response to a strike called by separatists to protest the visit of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

Singh along with UPA chairperson Sonia Gandhi and several cabinet colleagues including Railway Minister Mamata Banerjee, Health Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad and New and Renewable Energy Minister Farooq Abdullah arrived here on a two day visit this morning.

Shops and business establishments, educational institutions, banks and courts remained closed and traffic was off the roads in Srinagar and other major towns of the valley in response to the strike call given by hardline faction of Hurriyat Conference headed by Syed Ali Shah Geelani and supported by various other separatist organisations.

Yesterday, Kashmir valley observed a general strike called by separatists against the 62nd anniversary of the landing of Indian troops in the state.

Geelani asked the people to observe a complete strike against the visit of the Prime minister.

Supporting the strike call, President of Democratic Freedom Party and senior executive member of Moderate Hurriyat Shabir Ahmad Shah said, "People should observe complete shutdown against Indian Prime Minister's visit to Valley and confine themselves to their homes".

In view of the strike and the visit of the Prime Minister, police and paramilitary forces have been deployed in strength to maintain law and order and scuttle any attempt by separatists to stage demonstrations.

Normal life paralysed across Kashmir valley due to strike- Hindustan Times


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## dabong1

Nemesis said:


> So since you can't prove that Kashmir was first invaded by the Indian army, you start the canard of plebiscite? That's just pathetic debating skills.



Pakistan and india where divided along the lines of majority muslim ares going to pakistan and the rest to india.......anybody with half a brain would know that kashmir should belong to pakistan.
D o you see us complaning about majority hindu areas with muslim rulers being invaded by the indians so that the the hindus can live with india....Junagadh being one example.
The Government of Pakistan protested, saying that since the Nawab had chosen to accede to Pakistan, the Dewan had no authority to negotiate a settlement with India. Also, if India could acquire Kashmir (with an overwhelming Muslim majority) because its ruler had decided to accede to India, then Pakistan could claim Junagadh.



Nemesis said:


> Here, from a neutral source -



From the BBC also.
What freedom means in Kashmir
BBC NEWS | South Asia | What freedom means in Kashmir




Nemesis said:


> So, what were you saying? Something about Indian media brainwashing stories?
> It is obvious who has been brainwashed.



Thats strange...how come the BBC is also reporting that the people of kashmir want to be free of indian occupation.





Nemesis said:


> This is no separatist sentiment in either Meghalaya or Arunachal. If there is, it is no negligible that it has no impact in the mainstream. In assam, the Ulfa is all but finished. In fact the biggest headache for the people of Assam is the S-Ulfa or the surrendered Ulfa. The same can be said of Punjab and Mizoram. As far as nagaland goes, there is a cease fire between the main separatist group and the central government. The only state that can be described as a separatist hot bed is Manipur. And Tripura? Seriously?



So your willing to have a vote in Manipur and Tripura to see if they want to be part of india.





Nemesis said:


> Really, as i said before, when confronted with facts, you guys just make things up, don't you? EPIC FAIL.



Who said......

[We] have no desire to impose our will on Kashmir  Our assurance [is] that we shall withdraw our forces from Kashmir  And leave the decision regarding the future of this state to the people through the democratic method of free and impartial plebiscite under the auspices of the United Nation. The pledge we have given not only to the people of Kashmir but also to the world. We will not, can not back out of it.

facts are hard to swallow

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## dabong1

Skeptic said:


> These are not worth it.
> 
> 90% of Pakistanis it seems (Including Asim, Dabong etc - champions of Kashmir cause on this forum) believe that UN resolution has provisions for an Independent Kashmir.



So if there is no provisions for an Independent Kashmir but there is one where they choose between india or pakistan or is that also some brainwashing that has taken place.



Skeptic said:


> How much more delusional and brainwashed can one be. I found out in a discussion and since then refused to get into a debate over Kashmir with individuals given to misinformation. Best part is they will continue to live in their delusional world despite confrontation.



As you indians always tell us that kashmiris are so happy under the indians why not put it to the test and have a vote.......after all the kashmiris love india and will vote for for tou wont they

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## dabong1

PlanetWarrior said:


> You sadly are mistaken brother. 90% of the Pakistanis on this forum mistakenly believe that Kashmir belongs to Pakistan and that India should just hand over the whole of Kashmir to Pakistan. That is their delusion. Offcourse in reality 90% of Pakistanis do not care about the issue of Kashmir. They are happy with the status quo and are more concerned with issues which affects Pakistan itself. Then again this forum is usually visited by certain Pakistanis whose blind nationalism outweighs any sense of logic. Some of the comments relating to other countries and denials about Pakistan is laughable and established fact becomes fiction and vice versa. Their version of history has been re-written endlessly and in 10 years time we should not be surprised to hear from some Pakistanis that the civil war in Pakistan was a non-event and that Pakistan was actually fighting a war against the Taliban in Afghanistan. Dr Goebels once said that "if you repeat something often enough it may cause a few to blindly believe the statement. Those few in turn are better weapons in propaganda than the mightiest of weapons in war." How true his perception proved when a few Nazis were required to slaughter millions of Jews. Pakistan's propaganda machine clearly has adequete conversions to its cause. Sometimes however those that are used to demean your enemy with blind hatred, lies and propaganda turn around to bite you with their blind hatred and brainwashed misguidance. Surely Pakistan should know that by now and should stop trying to poke its finger up India's nose by stirring wanton hatred and unfounded negative perceptions about their issues with India.



You guys really have been brainwashed beyond any hope of any return when you totally forget that it was you indians that went to the UN and nehru was the one that promised a vote on the issue......why do you always forget your history and twist and turn and blame everybody else.


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## EjazR

BERNAMA - More Muslims Killed In Kashmir By Militants

NEW DELHI, Oct 27 (Bernama) -- More Muslims have been killed in Kashmir which has been plagued by militancy over the last two decades, said a senior Indian minister.

*Indian Health and Family Welfare Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad, a Kashmiri himself and former chief minister of Jammu and Kashmir said 14,808 Muslims lost their lives while 1,748 Hindus and 115 Sikhs were killed during the rein of militancy in the state since 1989.*

"Two decades of terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir have killed far more Muslims than people of other communities. Terrorist activities have led to destruction, deprivation and wrecked the socio-economic situation, marred the education, health and communication sectors, and played havoc with tourism sector.

"As it happens in all militancy affected areas, the common man is the real sufferer. A Kashmiri stands hapless today, witnessing his own destruction mutely," Ghulam said Tuesday.

He was speaking at the 2nd International Conference on "Terrorism - National and International" organised by the Jama Masjid United Forum, a social movement that strongly denounces terrorism.

Several armed separatist militant groups had helped foment violent terrorist activities in Jammu and Kashmir, which had crippled the picturesque valley for years.

Although it has come under control in recent years, sporadic militant attacks continue to risk the valley's peace and security.

"The acts of terrorism across the globe underscore terrorism as a global threat that transcends borders and religions and is not linked to any specific sect, religion or creed," he added.


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## Skeptic

dabong1 said:


> So if there is no provisions for an Independent Kashmir but there is one where they choose between india or pakistan or is that also some brainwashing that has taken place.


Yes it does make a difference. It takes away the moral high ground Pakistan wishes to take all the while on Kashmir issue. Pakistani interest in Kashmir is well and truely materialistic with emotional jingoism peppered in for good measure. 



> As you indians always tell us that kashmiris are so happy under the indians why not put it to the test and have a vote.......after all the kashmiris love india and will vote for for tou wont they


*Why should we??* We don't want to. We went to UN at that time willingly and changed the policy since. At that time we did not think that conditions were being adhered to by Pakistan. If a plebiscite was to happen, it had to be on terms agreeable to India. You pissed us off and so - No deal.

The resolution is not binding and requires agreement of both parties. Newsflash --- India does not agree anymore. We have nothing to prove to Pakistan - cry as much as it may. Last thing we require a certificate of approval from an imploding state.

Time has changed and so has demographics and several other factors. We do not think it is a good idea anymore.

Only reason the demand is repeated is because of imperialist Pakistani agenda who want more land. 

I will repeat - the resolution is not binding and we are no longer interested - which part is so difficult to understand.

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## PlanetWarrior

dabong1 said:


> You guys really have been brainwashed beyond any hope of any return when you totally forget that it was you indians that went to the UN and nehru was the one that promised a vote on the issue......why do you always forget your history and twist and turn and blame everybody else.



The issue of the plebiscite was promised subject to certain conditions which Pakistan railroaded. The real brainwashing is being done in your country. Firstly imagine a scenario where an unstable Pakistan is given the territory of Kashmir. That would be tantamount to India committing suicide


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## dabong1

Skeptic said:


> Yes it does make a difference. It takes away the moral high ground Pakistan wishes to take all the while on Kashmir issue. Pakistani interest in Kashmir is well and truely materialistic with emotional jingoism peppered in for good measure.



But pakistanis is willing to have a independent kashmir...are you? 




Skeptic said:


> *Why should we??* We don't want to. We went to UN at that time willingly and changed the policy since. At that time we did not think that conditions were being adhered to by Pakistan. If a plebiscite was to happen, it had to be on terms agreeable to India. You pissed us off and so - No deal.



Like a little child throwing his toys out of the cot when faced with the simple truth.....the kashmiris hate india!



Skeptic said:


> The resolution is not binding and requires agreement of both parties. Newsflash --- India does not agree anymore. We have nothing to prove to Pakistan - cry as much as it may. Last thing we require a certificate of approval from an imploding state.



All United Nations General Assembly resolutions that are not about matters internal to the UN (such as the structure of the UN or the creation of UN agencies) are inherently and explicitly (in the UN Charter) non-binding.



Skeptic said:


> Time has changed and so has demographics and several other factors. We do not think it is a good idea anymore.



If thats the case we want junagarh and the other sytes that wanted to be part of pakistan and we want the sikhs to choose if they want to be part of pakistan punjab also.



Skeptic said:


> I will repeat - the resolution is not binding and we are no longer interested - which part is so difficult to understand.



Try to understand what a non binding resolution is first.


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## third eye

Arre..

Nothing has changed over 60 + yrs , and nothing will.

The bogey is mostly about water & its control. Black & White days come & go .

Lastly, Kashmir did not accede to India, Jammu & Kashmir did.


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## faisal4pro

*Close on the heels of US revelation about the deaths of American sponsored terrorists in Iraq , India has also come out with its shabby account of genocide in Kashmir under Indian continued occupation and destructive operations.
The killing of Kashmiri patriots, the so-called &#8220;terrorists&#8221; for India, by the security forces has gone up this year, while those of civilians has come down by over 50 per cent in Jammu and Kashmir bettering the overall security situation in the state.

Without explicitly revealing the total amount of Indian genocide in Kashmir, a latest report on the security situation in the state released by the police says as compared to 31 civilian deaths caused by the militants between January 1 to March 25, 2007, only 14 people were killed during the same period this year. This shows a fall in the civilian killing by over 50 per cent, the report said. It said there was an increase in the number of Kashmiri patriots killed this year as 60 of them were eliminated in 2008 as compared to 58 last year during the same period.

Civilian killings by security forces have registered a decline with only nine people being killed in counter state-sponsored terrorist and insurgency operations this year when compared to the last year's figure of 28, the report said. Besides these, only 14 security personnel were injured in 2008 as compared to 42 last year, while 83 Kashmiri patriots were arrested in 2008 as compared to 47 in 2007, it said.

As many as 12 Kashmiris patriots have been forced to lay down their weapons and surrendered before the police between January and March 15 this year as compared to last year. "There is also fall in the overall militancy graph of the state as against 177 militancy-related incidents last year, only 119 such incidents took place this year," the report said.

"This is the reflection of better coordination between security forces, round the clock vigilance, better sharing of intelligence inputs and cooperation of the general public in the state," Director General of Police said. He also lauded the role of the police in basic policing in the state by giving importance to other law and order problems apart for the state-sponosred terrorist counter insurgency operations.

The government has also instituted awards and would provide monetary benefits to the outstanding and deserving policemen who mercilessly kill the Kashmiris, whether they are civilians or patriots struggling for their sovereignty form terrorist India . The number of civilians injured in militancy-related incidents has fallen by over 55 per cent, as only 29 civilians were injured last year, the report said.


As is seen above, the account is not only confusing, but even misleading for the public. India is beating about the bush very skillfully without telling the whole truth about its nefarious activities in the heavily militarized Kashmir dealing the Kashmiris virtually under siege and many of them are under their custody.

One wonders what would happen to India if the authorities straight-forwardly announce the total number of murders of Kashmiris by the Indian state-sponsored terrorist activities. When they can mass-murder the innocent Kashmiri patriots, they could as well reveal the truth about the details operations so that public also has a view about the ghastly policy of the India and the nefarious activities of its forces occupying Kashmir shamelessly. India media would some-how mange the public opinion in favor of India and the pro-India Kashmiris would not let India suffer its image and prestige.

The timing of India disclosure of some facts about the genocide in Kashmir when USA also did almost same stating only the American causalities in Iraq gives rise to fresh hopes among the Kashmiri patriots about a possible vacation of India from Kashmir when USA pulls out itself from Iraq letting the Iraqis have their sovereignty back. Hopefully so! Meanwhile India should reveal its own account of about how many Kashmiris it managed to kill and displace physically in Kashmir alone since its annexation of Kashmir in 1947.

Abdul Ruff is an Indian analyst, researcher & commentator.
http://www.globalpolitician.com/24337-india-kashmir*

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## Mirage2000

Good article but put the link from where you have taken it,Otherwise Indians will come denouncing,trolling,ranting and ridiculing,they would also say that Abdul Rauf is not Indian(well I dont know that either).However if link is posted the article will have more weight.

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## PlanetWarrior

Where is the link or are you adding your own credentials to Abdul Ruff. No link and all you are doing is trolling


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## criminal.justice

Manipur which is known as Jewel in the Crown or the Land of Jewels is burning. Curfew, bundhs, protests, hartal, blockades are common words and deeds too. Ever since a Delhi-based news portal `Tehlka published incriminating photographs showing a former militant being roughed up before he was shot by Manipur commandos in Imphal followed by the death of a pregnant woman Rubina in the crossfire, the State has not stopped making news. Despite the present situation and unrest in the state, I have no option but to stay here due to job compulsion. All my near and dear ones who are away from the state of Manipur and working in different cities have been worried and continuously inquiring about my well being. To calm their fears and anxiety, I tell them that `I am okay, but the condition is bad. 



Nancy (name changed), a friend from Manipur who is working in one of the IT companies in Delhi persistently rings me up enquiring about her aged parents and the sufferings at their `old age in the new age problems of protests and bundhs. I remember, post 23 July incident, one night she gave me frantic calls and many a missed calls to find out about her parents I promised her that, I will visit her parents during the relaxed curfew hours (5-9 AM). Although she has two brothers, they are married and working outside Manipur due to lack of employment opportunities and corruption/bribery for any job. They had left their home town in 2004, in a similar situation as today. On completion of her studies, Nancy like her brothers, was also forced to move out of Imphal as she could not get any government job despite having the requisite qualification. She didnt have enough money to bribe the higher-ups. She moved to Delhi and joined an IT software company as Front Office Girl. But within three years she became `Front Office & Lobby Manager through her hard work and commitment and not by bribing the higher -ups as prevalent in Manipur. 


Women Are Only Visible Street Protestor 


While Nancy is in Delhi, Manipur continues to burn. As in the past, the Manipuri women are the only visible street protestors. They are using every possible (known) strategy to oust Chief Minister, Mr. Ibobi Singh and repealing of the draconian law-Armed Forces Special Power Act. But nothing seems to be working. Women have used every imaginative symbols to capture the attention of the national and world audience. I recollect the ugly situation in 2004, when 13 naked women protested against Assam Rifles infront of Kanglafort at Imphal. This time too, women have again used the similar strategy but as a symbolic protest of making a sort of protective fence out of their phaneks (a sort of sarong worn by Meitei women). In other words it is an expression of outrage, a cry of desperation and their only way of showing; how naked and helpless they feel in the absence of a rule of law where justice doesnt prevails. 


A State, which has produced world famous Rajeev Gandhi Khel Ratna Award winner; Mary Kom, renowned dramatists like Ratan Thiyam and many sportspersons, with famous personalities and outstanding intellectuals could be a number one State amongst the other North Eastern states. Unfortunately, Manipur has become the top state in India, nay, the NE in terrorism and related activities. As per latest report, 36 insurgent groups are active in the state. Remorsefully, the State has become anarchic and unsafe. Those who can afford have moved out of the State, living in better conditions but (un) happy; unhappy thinking of their folks living in hell like condition. 


Although Nancy is in Delhi, she too faces many problems there. In Manipur it is due to terrorist related problems. But in Delhi, it is identity crisis and survival. Most North easterners are referred to as `Chinkies and sarcastically as Hakka Noodles and girls from the region have to ward off from preying eyes. Whether it is Manipur or Delhi, safety & security is a major concern. 


On one occasion I had the opportunity to interact with the young generations from Manipur and asked them a volley of questions. Why they are not trying for jobs in Manipur? What are the compulsions for leaving their home and home town leaving behind their helpless parents? Are they happy being away? They all looked at me as if I am an alien! Instantly and in unison they all said; Dont you know the situation created by various militant groups and police commandos? Dont you know the corruption level in the State? Where is the job opportunity? Is there any multi-national company in the State? Dont you know, out of 365 days in the year 200 days are bundhs and hartals? Do you think that we are happy being away from our own homes? 


Will Violence And Protests Bring Peace? 


Having heard these replies in form of questions, I didnt have any answer. I was left speechless. Many a proding questions came to my mind. Will continued killings, bombs blasts, bundhs, hartals, curfews, protest by women, JACs bring peace in Manipur ? No. If not, then what? 


Even the Prime Minister of India has expressed his disdain at the CMs utterances in the State Assembly that `Manipur has become ungovernable and to bring back a semblance of governance, some amount of killing of the underground forces is inevitable. He may be right up to some extent as PLA, Prepak & KCP (MC) are committing atrocities on the general public by carrying out grenade attacks, bombs, extortion and abduction for ransom. But wanton killings of innocent people or surrendered militants by the state police commando cannot be any justification and is condemnable. 


Those of us who watch the situation from a distance can only sympathise and agonise the sufferings and pain by our near and dear ones in Manipur. We cannot pretend to be `happy being away from Manipur. It is time to bring sanity in Manipur and other violence-impaired areas of the region through a network of peace builders who are not looking for personal and political gains but by those who will work for humanitarian reasons only. There is no happiness for the people of Manipur either in Manipur or else where in India (Un) happy : being away ?? Being away, is no solution.


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## faisal4pro

*Link added!...........*


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## EjazR

www.outlookindia.com | The Bogey Of UN Resolutions

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is on his Kashmir visit. This follows the peace initiative of home minister Chidambaram. Recently the home minister announced his intention to initiate a quiet dialogue for a Kashmir solution with all shades of opinion in that state. His suggestion was widely welcomed by various Kashmir leaders. Only the Hurriyats hard-line proponent Syed Ali Shah Geelani debunked the offer. "The statement of Chidambaram is meaningless unless India publicly admits the disputed nature of Kashmir and agrees on the tripartite talks aimed at giving right of self-determination to the people of Jammu and Kashmir," he said. He added that all the three parties - - India, Pakistan and Kashmiris -- should participate in the talks. They should, he said, aim to finalize implementation of the UN resolutions guaranteeing the right of self-determination to the people of Jammu and Kashmir.

Earlier on July 26th Geelani had said that if not UN resolutions the government should come forward with an "alternate solution" to the dispute that reflects the aspirations of the Kashmiri people. The bottom line for a solution to the Kashmir solution is the United Nations resolutions but if New Delhi suggests an alternate solution that goes as per the wishes of the people, Kashmiris may consider it. He urged Pakistan to stick to its stand regarding implementation of the UN resolutions as these were "the pillars of our case." 

Geelanis views deserve attention. Not only is he the most candid separatist leader who puts his cards on the table, he is also the biggest hurdle to achieving consensus among the separatist leaders.

What Geelani has said makes sense. One is not sure though if he realizes why what he has said makes sense. His criticism of the Indian government for periodically parroting the statement that there existed no Kashmir dispute is unexceptionable. It is rather ridiculous to claim that there is no Kashmir dispute when half the territory claimed by the Indian government is occupied by another nation which also claims the entire territory to be its own.

However it is the governments stand on the UN resolutions on the Kashmir plebiscite that is most mystifying. The UN resolutions are the lynchpin of Geelanis approach.

For over half a century the Indian government has adopted a negative and defensive posture on UN resolutions on the Kashmir plebiscite. Why? *Nothing could be more favourable to India than these UN resolutions.*

There have been 14 UN resolutions on Kashmir. The first was on 17 January, 1948 and the last on 21 December, 1971. Despite the periodic updating the core provisions of the original resolution remained intact. These were that all Pakistani troops and personnel must vacate the entire territory of Jammu and Kashmir; the state must revert to its original status before hostilities started; Indian troops may operate in the entire state until a state of normalcy is restored; after which Indian troops must also withdraw leaving only a token Indian force sufficient to maintain law and order; then, and only then, would a free and fair plebiscite be held under the aegis of the UN Commission appointed for the purpose; and in that said plebiscite the people of the state might vote for either joining India or Pakistan. In August 2006 Kofi Annan, then UN Secretary General, clarified while visiting Pakistan that UN resolutions on Kashmir were not under Chapter 7 of the UN charter and therefore not self-enforcing as they were on East Timor and Iraq. The UN Kashmir resolutions required the cooperation of both India and Pakistan for implementation.

Thus if in the future UN resolutions were to be implemented and a plebiscite was to be held according to its terms the following events would have to take place.

* * First, all Pakistani troops would have to vacate Pakistan Occupied Kashmir.
* Second, Indian troops would have to occupy the whole of Kashmir until terrorism ends.
* Third, China would have to vacate the territory illegally ceded to it by Pakistan in order for Kashmir to revert to its original status before hostilities started in 1948.
* Fourth, if all these conditions get fulfilled the bulk of Indian troops would withdraw except for a token force to maintain law and order.
* Fifth, the plebiscite organized by the UN Commission would allow Kashmiris to choose joining either India or Pakistan . The option to choose independence would be denied to them. *
*
Does anyone in his senses believe that Pakistan could fulfil even one precondition of the UN plebiscite without its government being overthrown by its own people? And yet, India through all these years has stoutly opposed these UN resolutions! Was this due to deliberate subversion or monumental stupidity?*

However, Geelani has also welcomed any alternate solution by the government which reflects the aspirations of Kashmir people. What could that solution be except what I have been suggesting for decades? Let the different areas of Kashmir be allowed self- determination giving voters the right to choose India, Pakistan or independence. In order to avoid a repeat of aggression and war over Kashmir this would have to be accompanied by the precondition that India, Pakistan and Kashmir, whatever the status of Kashmirs different parts, must be joined in a common community. Former President Musharraf had suggested something vaguely similar in spirit except for the all important provision that India and Pakistan must be members of a joint community. Minus this provision Musharrafs plan became a non-starter. Today Pakistan grapples terrorism. It faces an identity crisis. It might be open to a more radical approach.

It is possible that Geelani and other Hurriyat leaders might also accept this plan. Geelani held a negative and rigid view when I suggested this plan to him in the company of Abdul Ghani Bhatt and Abbas Ansari over a decade ago in a Sundernagar guest house in New Delhi. Perhaps the implications of the UN resolutions had not dawned on him. *Perhaps subsequent events after that meeting have led him to believe that the bulk of the people in the Valley would prefer independence to joining Pakistan. *

The time for the Hurriyat leaders to come out of their closets and speak boldly and frankly has arrived. If they reflect they have little choice except this plan if they seek self determination. The Hurriyat leaders might recall that before he died Pandit Nehru with the help of Sheikh Abdullah attempted to make Kashmir the bridge between India and Pakistan. Nehru had realized his earlier mistakes. Will the Hurriyat?

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## toxic_pus

EjazR said:


> www.outlookindia.com | The Bogey Of UN Resolutions
> 
> 
> Thus if in the future UN resolutions were to be implemented and a plebiscite was to be held according to its terms the following events would have to take place.
> 
> * * First, all Pakistani troops would have to vacate Pakistan Occupied Kashmir.
> * Second, Indian troops would have to occupy the whole of Kashmir until terrorism ends.
> * Third, China would have to vacate the territory illegally ceded to it by Pakistan in order for Kashmir to revert to its original status before hostilities started in 1948.
> * Fourth, if all these conditions get fulfilled the bulk of Indian troops would withdraw except for a token force to maintain law and order.
> * Fifth, the plebiscite organized by the UN Commission would allow Kashmiris to choose joining either India or Pakistan . The option to choose independence would be denied to them. *
> *
> Does anyone in his senses believe that Pakistan could fulfil even one precondition of the UN plebiscite without its government being overthrown by its own people?*


*
I have always felt that the most damning part of UN resolutions, for Pakistan, was the unconditional withdrawal of tribals. It was strategically impossible for Pakistan to comply then, and logistically impossible now. 

People who still think that UN resolutions and by implication, plebiscite, hold the solution to Kashmir quagmire, live in a world entirely detached from reality.*


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## logic

> Thus if in the future UN resolutions were to be implemented and a plebiscite was to be held according to its terms the following events would have to take place.
> 
> * First, all Pakistani troops would have to vacate Pakistan Occupied Kashmir.
> * Second, Indian troops would have to occupy the whole of Kashmir until terrorism ends.
> * Third, China would have to vacate the territory illegally ceded to it by Pakistan in order for Kashmir to revert to its original status before hostilities started in 1948.
> * Fourth, if all these conditions get fulfilled the bulk of Indian troops would withdraw except for a token force to maintain law and order.
> * Fifth, the plebiscite organized by the UN Commission would allow Kashmiris to choose joining either India or Pakistan . The option to choose independence would be denied to them.
> 
> Does anyone in his senses believe that Pakistan could fulfil even one precondition of the UN plebiscite without its government being overthrown by its own people? And yet, India through all these years has stoutly opposed these UN resolutions! Was this due to deliberate subversion or monumental stupidity?



De bunking the stupidity of Indian media.

Thus if in the future UN resolutions were to be implemented and a plebiscite was to be held according to its terms the following events would have to take place.

* First, all Indian troops would have to vacate Indian held Kashmir.

* Second, Pakistani troops would have to occupy the whole of Kashmir until Indian oppresion of Kashmir ends ends.

* Third, China would keep territory that is rightfuly belong to china

* Fourth, if all these conditions get fulfilled the bulk of Indian troops would withdraw except for a token UN force to maintain law and order.

* Fifth, the plebiscite organized by the UN Commission would allow Kashmiris to choose joining either India or Pakistan as well as the option to choose independence.

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## EjazR

*@logic*

Its not Indian media, its the the UN resolution requirements. And China was given J&K territory by Pakistan, It didn't belong to China.

Moreover, there are even US built bases in Gilgit that were used against the USSR. So in actual fact we have to take into account US military prescence as well along with Chinese and Pakistani military prescence.

There is no option for Independance, it was on Pakistan's insistence that it was removed. The options are only India or Pakistan.

Please read the UN resolutions before commenting


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## logic

@EjazR

Before Being a mouth piece for trigger happy Indian media i would suggest that you should read the orignal draft of UN resolutions before commenting.

Azad Kashmir is a part of Pakistan
China has a rightful possesion of its territories some are still being in illegal indian occupation.
It is Indian Help Kashmir where people are on the streets demanding justice.


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## EjazR

@logic

you seem to be replying more on an emotional/rhetorical basis than factual

The UN resolution clearly considres J&K in the state as it existed pre-1947. So yes China is illegally occupying Kashmiri territory. India or Pakistan may end up getting J&K but China has nor ight on any J&K land.

Please go through this thread http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/7904-kashmir-resolutions-explanations.html


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## Omar1984

* Obama should deliver on Kashmir promise: Nawaz*


* PML-N chief tells Hillary Pak-US relationship should be based on trust 
* Praises Clinton&#8217;s efforts for increased US investment in Pakistan

LAHORE: US President Barack Obama should deliver on his campaign promise of addressing the Kashmir issue, Pakistan Muslim League Nawaz chief Nawaz Sharif told US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton on Thursday.

Nawaz said Obama had vowed that he would work towards promoting normalisation of ties between Pakistan and India and facilitating the resolution of the Kashmir issue. He said Obama&#8217;s proposition had been a &#8220;positive concept&#8221; that now needed to be given official shape.

He said the people of Pakistan would welcome such an objective, which would make a meaningful contribution for establishing peace in the region.

Nawaz stressed the need for establishing Pak-US relationship based on mutual trust and interest.

The PML-N chief said Pakistan had been an important friend and ally of the US and the two countries had cooperated on many important global issues in the past.

Nawaz applauded President Obama's policy of dialogue and engagement, especially with regard to the Muslim world, which he said would help foster understanding, reduce tensions and facilitate the resolution of regional and global issues.

He also praised Clinton for her efforts in bringing greater US investment to Pakistan, especially in the energy sector, saying these measures would not only strengthen the country's economy, but also foster a closer relationship between the two countries.

Punjab Chief Minister Shahbaz Sharif, leader of the Opposition in the National Assembly Nisar Ali Khan, Ishaq Dar and Khawaja Asif accompanied Nawaz in the meeting.

Clinton was accompanied by special envoy Richard Holbrooke, US Ambassador Anne Patterson and Assistant Secretary of State PG Crowel.

Earlier, Shahbaz welcomed Clinton to Lahore. This was Shahbaz&#8217;s second meeting with Clinton, the first being in Washington. app


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## EjazR

Thanks for mentioning Abdul Ruff (so called Indian scholar working at JNU). That helps in proving that this article is completely untrue and loses credibility. 

Interestingly he doesn't even respond to emails, and if you Phone JNU you will find that there is no Abdul Ruff in JNU or check out their website even

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## Bhushan

Abdul Ruff is a fake name. If he is such a self proclaimed Specialist on State Terrorism and Research Scholar (JNU) how come there is not a single picture on net. He is some Pakistani using this name to write articles. How do I know he is a Pakistani? Well just checkout his signature under his articles. 

* Dr. Abdul Ruff Colachal
Independent Researcher in International Affairs,
The only Indian to have gone through entire India, a fraud and terror nation in South Asia . * 

Whither Pakistan ?- By Dr. Abdul Ruff Colachal - Wikio

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## Bhushan

atlast found his photo.

http://www.zimbio.com/member/abdulruff

check out his address

Personal Info
Dr.Abdul Ruff Colachal (Male)
Born on 10-May-77
*Lives in New Delhi , USA 10005*
Interests
reading, writing

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## Bhushan

fraud writer


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## PlanetWarrior

Bhushan said:


> atlast found his photo.
> 
> Profile - abdulruff - Zimbio
> 
> check out his address
> 
> Personal Info
> Dr.Abdul Ruff Colachal (Male)
> Born on 10-May-77
> *Lives in New Delhi , USA 10005*
> Interests
> reading, writing



New Delhi, USA ???  Perhaps he meant Karachi, USA


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## Bullhead




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## faisal4pro

*Lol.... thats ridiculus that u ppl are not ready to accept criticism! all ur information and pics are fake! he is a genuine real person! 

the reason of his sophisticated and hidden-like personality is that u people will not let him live a single moment! as we can see how broad-minded u r to accept criticism.*


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## PlanetWarrior

faisal4pro said:


> *Lol.... thats ridiculus that u ppl are not ready to accept criticism! all ur information and pics are fake! he is a genuine real person!
> 
> the reason of his sophisticated and hidden-like personality is that u people will not let him live a single moment! as we can see how broad-minded u r to accept criticism.*



Yup he is an "Indian journalist" as you claim and he is living in India and exposing Indian terrorism. Thanks for the "informative article" but I do suggest that you stop googling every negative article on India to post on forums as a large percentage of those articles are propaganda without merit


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## faisal4pro

The dynamics of Kashmir conflict have undergone a drastic change since 9/11 due to dramatic changes wrought by US War on Terrorism in the region. The US focus on fighting terrorism, extremism and Islamic fundamentalism, most of the times all linked together has put tremendous pressure on Pakistans Kashmir policy. With the blurring of distinction between freedom struggle and terrorism, international community has become more intolerant to terrorism. Finding the moment opportune, New Delhi has stepped up the ante and questioned Pakistans sincerity and commitment to fight terrorism while sponsoring cross-border terrorism into Indian held Kashmir. Conversely, Islamabad walking on a tightrope has tried to maintain a distinction between freedom struggle and terrorism.

The objective of the paper is to explore the relationship between War on Terror and Kashmir issue since 9/11. It analyses the relationship between War on Terror and Kashmir issue from three competing perspectives emanating from Islamabad, New Delhi and Washington. The Kashmiri perspective on War on Terrorism is also integrated in the analysis. The main argument is that although War on Terrorism has put pressure on the armed struggle in Kashmir, it has pushed political struggle to the forefront which provides an opportunity for serious negotiations on the Kashmir issue.

Three main questions raised in the study are:

 How Pakistan, India and US define terrorism in the context of Kashmir?
 How the three actors approach War on Terrorism and in what manner does it affect the Kashmir issue?
 How war on terror is affecting the composite dialogue on issues concerning terrorism and Kashmir?

*Defining Terrorism*

The competing perspectives are reflected in the manner the three actors define terrorism which also shape their objectives, attitude and expectations from War on Terrorism. The definition of terrorism is the most controversial issue in the contemporary international law and politics. All dictionaries agree that terrorism is all about fear, uncertainty and violence, and a terrorist is one who uses act of violence and terror, or other fear-inspiring means, to coerce a government or a community to agree on something that the terrorist wants. However, there is utter lack of consensus on what constitutes terrorism? What causes terrorism? Who is a terrorist? What are the various forms and manifestations of terrorism and how can one distinguish it from legitimate freedom struggles and even political violence and agitation on the streets? Thus quite often, one states terrorist is another states freedom fighter. In this situation, the definition of terrorism has become country-specific, serving their respective geo-political or economic interests. However, after
9/11 attacks on the US, there seems to be a growing convergence of perceptions on what constitutes acts of terrorism, the bottom line being that under no circumstances, violence or acts of terrorism can be directed against innocent people.

Pakistan: Within this broader international setting, Pakistan has repeatedly condemned terrorism in all its forms and manifestations, but strongly believes that terrorism or terrorist activities cannot be eradicated unless the causes of terrorism are removed. There are at least five elements in Pakistans definition of terrorism. First, Pakistan considers terrorism a threat to humanity and human civilization and in principle condemns all acts of terrorism anywhere In the world. Second, Pakistan maintains that the root causes of terrorism should be addressed as part of the international campaign against terrorism. Third, the fight against terrorism should include state terrorism, implying case of Kashmir. Fourth, a distinction should be drawn between freedom struggles and terrorism. Fifth, a distinction should be made between the Islamic religion and terrorism. This is reflected in various statements made by top Pakistani leadership at various occasions.

President Musharraf, in his speech at the SAARC Summit in 2002 stated: We regard terrorism as a grave threat to civil society. We abhor violence. We are determined to eliminate terrorism and therefore, fully implement the SAARC Convention for Combating Terrorism.1 However, he emphasized on the need for the elimination of the root causes of terrorism. At the 57th session of UN General Assembly, in 2002 reflecting on roots of terrorism he stated: it was not religion which impels a terrorist act, it is often a sense of frustration and powerlessness to redress persistent injustice. 2
Pakistan always looked at Kashmir struggle as a freedom struggle. Over the past six decades, Islamabad strongly supported the right of self-determination for the Kashmiris and pledged moral, political, and diplomatic support to the Kashmir cause. Ever since 1990 uprising in IHK, Pakistan stepped up its support for the Kashmiris that allegedly included material support to the fighters in Kashmir.3 Pakistan was deeply concerned about the potential fall out of 9/11 on its Kashmir cause that unleashed US global war on terror and included Pakistan its regional ally in this fight.

After 9/11 Pakistan, drew a distinction between freedom struggle and terrorism and made concerted efforts that WOT should not affect the Kashmiris fight for the right of self-determination. Pakistan distinguished between the acts of legitimate resistance and freedom struggles and acts of terrorism. Pakistans concern flowed from its principled stance and support to the freedom struggle in Kashmir, which increasingly came under pressure from India and world opinion after 9/11. At UNGA, Musharraf observed: the just struggles of a people for self-determination and liberation from colonial or foreign occupation cannot be outlawed in the name of terrorism.4 Pakistan also argued that India is perpetrating state terrorism in IHK in the name of counter-insurgency operations.

India: There exists a great divergence of perception between India and Pakistan when it comes to define terrorism and deal with terrorist activity in Kashmir. Broadly speaking, India argued that resistance in IHK is primarily a issue of terrorism and that Pakistan is sponsoring and supporting cross-border terrorism in IHK. Even
before 9/11 and US War on terrorism, India had consistently accused Pakistan of waging proxy war, low intensity conflict and cross-border terrorism in IHK.5
9/11 provided it a golden opportunity to push forward its own agenda of counter-terrorism in Kashmir. Consequently, India tried to combine the issues of War on Terrorism and Kashmir so as to draw maximum benefit from the changed international opinion in favour of fighting terrorism lock stock and barrel. India strongly contested Pakistans inclusion in the US war on Terrorism and repeatedly urged on the US to include Kashmir in its war on terror. It also questioned Pakistans credentials in becoming partner in US counter-terrorism strategy while being a source, hub or epicenter of terrorism and offered unconditionally to the US, all material and operational support for its military campaign against terrorism in Afghanistan. India further hardened its position on Kashmir.

US: The United States needed India-Pakistan cooperation to fight its War on Terrorism, which is mainly directed against Al-Qaida and its operatives/remnants in the region. Hence, it did not include Kashmir into WOT as suggested by India, but persistently excreted pressure on Pakistan to address Indias concern on terrorism. The fact that India and US share the view that Islamic extremism/ fundamentalism is a direct threat to their states, it has given leverage to India to
2001-2002 Military Stand off, War on Terror & Kashmir
The 2001-2002 India-Pakistan military standoff took place against the backdrop of war on terror in the region. The attack on state assembly in Srinagar on October 1, 2001 and subsequent attack on the Indian Parliament on December 13, 2001 precipitated a 10-month military stand off between the two countries. Pakistan for the first time condemned the attack on the state assembly and the Indian Parliament. Islamabad also sought credible evidence and offered Delhi, a joint probe or impartial investigation into the December 13 attack so as to establish the truth.

India however, spurned Pakistans offers and unleashed a massive military build up along the border with Pakistan which brought the two countries twice to the brink of war. During this period, India used coercive diplomacy to extract maximum concessions from Pakistan on the issue of cross-border terrorism. It equated the attack on the parliament with 9/11 attacks on the US and blamed Lashkar-e-Taiba, and Jaish-e-Mohamad for carrying out the attack with ISI help.6 Vajpayee in his message to the nation declared that the attack was not just on the building, but a warning to the entire nation, ... our fight is now reaching the last stage, and a decisive battle would have to take place. 7 He warned: We will liquidate the terrorists and their sponsors wherever they are, whosoever they are. Later, he threatened that India, which had resisted crossing the LoC during Kargil conflict, might not show the same restraint in the future. He also declared that all options are open. 8
Under growing Indian and US/international pressure, Mushararf defined parameters for Kashmir struggle, while keeping the commitment to Kashmir cause intact. In his 12 January 2002 speech, Musharraf pledged: No organization will be allowed to indulge in terrorism in the name of Kashmir. ... Anyone found involved in any terrorist act would be dealt with sternly. Strict action will be taken against any
Pakistani individual, group or organization found involved in terrorism within or outside the country. 9 He banned Lashkar and Jaish that India alleged were involved in such activity. Asserting Islamabads commitment to Kashmir struggle, he said: Kashmir runs in our blood.  We will continue to extend our moral, political and diplomatic support to Kashmiris. We will never budge an inch from our principled stand on Kashmir. 10 Islamabad, maintained, Kashmir problem needs to be resolved by dialogue and peaceful means in accordance with the wishes of the Kashmiri people and the UN resolutions. It urged the international community, especially the US to play an active role in resolving the Kashmir dispute for the sake of durable peace and harmony in the region.

*US & Stand off*

The US policy was reflected in US role in defusing military stand-off between India and Pakistan in 2001-2002 and US role in facilitating and sustaining India-Pakistan composite dialogue since January 2004. After assembly attack, the US President Bush called on both parties to cool tensions. 11 During military standoff, the international community and in particular the US persistently urged on India and Pakistan to exercise restraint, defuse tension and resume dialogue. US sent high officials such as Secretary of State Colin Powell and Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage India and to bring down the temperature and avert any potential escalation in the crisis.12 They exerted pressure on Pakistan to control cross-LoC infiltration.
Composite Dialogue, War on Terrorism & Kashmir
The thaw in Pakistan-India relations began in April 2003 and resulted in ceasefire on the LoC on 26 November 2003. On 6 January 2004, at the end of the SAARC summit in Islamabad, the two sides signed a joint statement that revived composite dialogue.

The joint statement that formed the basis of current composite dialogue between Pakistan and India, hinged on drawing a delicate balance between Indias concern on terrorism and Pakistans apprehension regarding the marginalization of the Kashmir issue. The statement said: the resumption of the composite dialogue will lead to peaceful settlement of all bilateral issues, including Jammu and Kashmir. Islamabad agreed that it would not permit any territory under Pakistan's control to be used to support terrorism in any manner.13 This implied a subtle linkage in the progress on the two issues.

Consequently, Kashmir and terrorism have dominated the composite dialogue that began in March 2004. The last three years of peace process indicates that India and Pakistan sharply differ regarding progress on Kashmir and terrorism. Pakistan feels that there has not been concrete progress on the resolution of Kashmir while it has done everything to address Indias concern about cross-border terrorism. Conversely, India feels that Pakistan has still not given up the jihadi option on Kashmir and questions its sincerity and commitment to curb cross-border terrorism.

The joint statements issued at the end of each round of talks on the peace and security and Kashmir or the foreign secretaries review talks, show that both sides want to register the importance they attach to their respective concerns on Kashmir
and terrorism. For instance in September 2004, the joint statement at the end of the foreign secretaries review meeting underscored, carrying the process forward in an atmosphere free from terrorism and violence and continue with the serious and sustained dialogue to find a peaceful negotiated final settlement of the Kashmir dispute.14 In October 2005, the joint statement issued at the end of second round of talks reiterated that possible options for a peaceful, negotiated settlement of the issue of Jammu and Kashmir should be explored in a sincere, purposeful and forward-looking manner. It also reaffirmed determination not to allow terrorism to impede the peace process. 15
The joint statement issued on 16 September 2006, at the end of Musharraf - Manmohan meeting, the leaders decided to continue the joint search for mutually acceptable options for a peaceful negotiated settlement of all issues between India and Pakistan, including the issue of J& K, in a sincere and purposeful manner. It emphasized the need to build on convergences and narrow down divergences. The leaders strongly condemned all acts of terrorism and agreed that terrorism is a scourge that needs to be effectively dealt with. They decided to put in place an India-Pakistan anti-terrorism institutional mechanism to identify and implement counter-terrorism initiatives and investigations.

The leadership on both sides has showed considerable political will and commitment to sustain the composite dialogue on Kashmir and terrorism. However, their statements from time to time have voiced sharp difference in their respective stances over improving situation in Kashmir and the resolution of the dispute. Indian leadership has continued to highlight the issue of cross-LoC infiltration and terrorism and contended that it is directly linked with the reduction of troops from IHK, and improvement of human rights situation there. Hence, India has not agreed to CBMs that could normalize situation inside Kashmir such as extending ceasefire to the militants, announcing gradual reduction of troops, abrogating repressive laws such as Special Powers (Armed Forces) Act, releasing political prisoners, improving human rights violations, rehabilitating victims of violence etc. India has linked all these steps to the security situation in Kashmir. In contrast, Pakistani leadership continued to make efforts to keep Kashmir at the centre of the dialogue and emphasized on the Kashmir specific CBMs that may provide relief to the Kashmiris on the ground.

India has also tried to exploit the incidents of terrorism in India and Kashmir to its own advantage. It has invariably accused Pakistan-based militant groups, especially Jaish and Lashkar for carrying out such incidents. Delhi suspended composite dialogue after Mumbai train blasts on 11 July 2006 which was restored only when Pakistan agreed to the formation of an anti-terrorism institutional mechanism to address Indias concerns on terrorism. A joint anti-terror panel was set up in this regard which had its first meeting in March 2007. Sharp differences have arisen in the very first meeting as Pakistan maintained that incidents inside IHK would not come in the purview of the anti-terror panel while India insisted that it should cover all terror incidents whether they are in India or Kashmir. The working of the mechanism poses huge challenge to both sides, as they would tend to use it to their own advantage.

An analysis of the last three rounds of talks shows that the normalization process has moved forward, while conflict resolution process has not showed much concrete
progress. So far there have been some Kashmir-specific CBMs such as a ceasefire on the LoC, resumption of Srinagar- Muzaffarabad bus service in April 2005, the opening of 5 cross-LoC points in the wake of earth quake of October 8 2005, starting of Poonch-Rawalkot bus service and an agreement on the truck service on Srinagar- Muzafarabad route. In addition APHC leaders were allowed to pay few visits to AJK & Pakistan, and Indian and Pakistani journalists visited the two Kashmirs. There was agreement on monthly flag meetings along the LoC between the local area commanders. The other CBMs on the table are to hold of sports events on both sides of Kashmir, and start a helicopter service and postal service between Muzaffarabad and Srinagar. India has proposed a bus service between Skardu and Kargil and Pakistan had agreed to look into the suggestion. The benefit of the Kashmir-specific CBMs have however, been limited due to the difficulties in way of their operationalisation. In the last round of foreign secretaries talks on 13-14 March 2007, the two sides have agreed to ensure implementation of already agreed Kashmir related CBMs.

The slow movement on Kashmir has not been only due to Indias dissatisfaction on the issue of terrorism that it continues to assert would determine the progress on Kashmir. It is also due to divergent stances adopted by two sides on the resolution of the Kashmir dispute. Pakistan has shown remarkable flexibility and imaginative thinking in offering different proposals that takes into account aspirations of Kashmiris as well as Indian and Pakistani sensitivities in Kashmir. The basic premise of Musharraf proposals is that solution to Kashmir cannot be found in status quo, insistence on plebiscite or converting the LoC into a permanent border but in a creative resolution based on concessions by all sides, yet meeting the aspirations of the Kashmiris. Musharraf has demonstrated great flexibility in suggesting ideas about the resolution of Kashmir issue. On 24 October 2004, he suggested a three-phased formula along the ethnic and geographic lines. In December 2005, he suggested a 4-point formula that involved soft borders, demilitarization, self-governance and joint mechanism/supervision mechanism for Kashmir.
Conversely, India has so far not shown any flexibility in moving away from its officially stated position on Kashmir that it is an integral part of India. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh articulated India position in May 2004, even before assuming office. In response to a question that how far he would accept a compromise with Pakistan on Kashmir, Manmohan told Jonathan Power: [Short] of secession, short of redrawing boundaries, the Indian establishment can live with anything as far as question of Kashmir and Pakistan is concerned. 16 He added: We need soft borders- then borders are not important People on the both sides of the border should be able too move freely. On the question of plebiscite promised by Nehru, he observed: a plebiscite would take place on a religious basis. It would unsettle everything. No GOI could survive that. Autonomy we are prepared to consider. All these things are negotiable. But an independent Kashmir would become a hotbed of fundamentalism. 17 As he took over, he referred to national consensus and accommodation of public sentiments and extrapolated that terrorism and violence would cast a dark shadow over this process. Since than basic elements of Indias Kashmir policy have been: a) no redrawing of boundaries on religious lines. b) Soft borders with free movement of Kashmiris people and trade across LoC. c) Autonomy within the Indian constitution. d) national consensus and accommodation of public sentiment on the issue of Kashmir and terrorism.

Within these broad parameters, India rejected Musharrafs seven-region proposal saying that it constituted a division of Kashmir on religious lines. The initial Indian response to Musharrafs 4-point proposal was also quite lukewarm but lately Indian media and official circles have shown some interest in the proposal, especially the self governance and demilitarization but has strongly opposed the joint supervision mechanism.

US has played an important role in initiating and sustaining India-Pakistan composite dialogue. It has extended support to bilateral efforts to resolve Kashmir dispute and has supported Musharrafs proposal of self-governance, demilitarization and joint management/supervision. US is interested in ensuring strategic stability and durable peace in the region. Yet, it has not clearly moved away from its traditional crisis management approach to a conflict resolution approach in the region. Many observers in Pakistan feel that with the growing strategic partnership with India, the US would be reluctant to pressure India to make concessions to Pakistan over Kashmir. However, the US war on terrorism would continue to engage US in the region that in return would imply that US would stay actively engaged in India-Pakistan peace process.

Kashmiris, war on terrorism and Kashmir
Kashmiris leadership, both political and militant has been profoundly affected by turn of the trends after 9/11. First, while the moderates have become more relevant to the political struggle, the hardliners and the militant leaders find themselves isolated and marginalized. Significantly, in January 2007, the APHC leaders in their visit to Pakistan and AJK conferred with the United Jihad Council leadership. Mirwaiz called for an end to armed struggle and urged on militants to join the path of dialogue and reconciliation.18 The call was a bold and courageous step, but it evoked negative reaction in IHK. Syed Salahuddin of the UJC, and Syed Ali Gilani leader of hardline faction of APHC opposed the move. Geelanis wheel jam call in Srinagar to protest Mirwaiz visit to Pakistan evoked great response. The polarization within the APHC and between APHC and Kashmiri militants may undermine the credibility of the moderates, especially when there is not much improvement on the ground in Kashmir.

Second, although Kashmiris have extended full support to India-Pakistan peace process, yet they are not included in the dialogue process. The January 6, 2004 statement limited the solution of Kashmiris to the satisfaction of both sides. Kashmiris on both sides of the LoC have demanded that they should be formally involved in the peace process. They have also demanded Kashmir-specific concrete CBMs that may improve situation in Kashmir. These included ceasefire by the Indian forces against the militants, troops withdrawal, release of political prisoners and an end to human rights violations. New Delhi, in its bilateral talks with Hurriyat has ruled out withdrawal of troops to barracks. A statement from the PMO stated that India would cut off troop level in Kashmir if violence and infiltration stops.19
Third, the APHC led by Mirwaiz has supported Presidents Musharrafs proposals on demilitarization, self-governance and joint management/supervision. The pro-India PDP and NC have also supported the idea of demilitarization and joint supervision for Kashmir. In fact, PDP has threatened to pull out of coalition with the Congress if
there is no forward movement on the issue of demilitarization. This indicates a resurgence of political struggle for the resolution of Kashmir.

*Conclusion:*

Kashmir issue predates War on Terrorism since 9/11 and is most likely to continue after war on terror comes to an end, if it remains unresolved. The War on terror has certainly put pressure on the armed struggle in Kashmir which was already facing pressures from different corners. This has however, provided opportunity to Pakistan, India and the Kashmiris to move towards resolving the Kashmir conflict. Within this context, the US can play a very important role by constructively engaging India, Pakistan and the Kashmiris to initiate a structured and sustained dialogue on Kashmir and find a solution that is in accordance with the wishes of the Kashmiri people.

*End Notes*
1 Text of President Gen Pervez Musharrafs speech at SAARC Summit, The News, 6 January 2002.
2 Masood Haider & Anwer Iqbal, Kashmir a threat to peace, warns Musharraf: world help sought for Indo-Pak talks, Dawn, 13 September 2002.
3 See, Zaid Hussain, Frontline Pakistan: The Struggle for Militant Islam, (I. B. Tauris, UK, 2007.) Rizwan Zeb, Pakistan and Jihadi Groups in the Kashmir Conflict, in Waheguru Pal Sindhu, Bushra Asif, & Cyrus Samii, (ed.), Kashmir : New Voices, New Approaches, (Lynne Rienner Publishers, Boulder London, 2006.) pp.65-95.
4 Masood Haider & Anwer Iqbal, Kashmir a threat to peace, warns Musharraf: world help sought for Indo-Pak talks, Dawn, 13 September 2002.
5 See, Praveen Swami, Terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir in Theory and Practice, in Sumit Ganguly, The Kashmir Question: Retrospect and Prospect, (ed.) Frank Cass & Co. Ltd., UK, 2003. Ashutosh Misra, The Problem of Kashmir and the Problem in Kashmir : Divergence Demands Convergence, Strategic Analysis, Vol. 29. No. 1. January-March 2005. pp. 16-43.
6 Prashant Pandey, Jaish, Lashkar carried out attack with ISI guidance: Police, The Hindu, Delhi, 17 December 2001.
7 Harish Khare, A decisive battle has to take place: PM, The Hindu, Delhi, 14 December 2001.
8 All options are open: PM, The Hindu, Delhi, 20, December 2001.
9 Text of Presidents address to the nation, The News, Islamabad, 13 January, 2002.
10 Text of Presidents address to the nation, The News, Islamabad, 13 January, 2002.
11 Pakistan to retaliate if attacked: Qureshi, The News, 17 October 2001.
12 See, Poly Nayk & Michael Krepon, US Crisis Management in South Asias Twin Peaks Crisis, The Henry L. Stimson Center, Report 57, September 2006.
13 Pakistan, India Joint statement, Dawn, Karachi, 7 January 2004.
14 Highlights of the Joint Statement, The Times of India, New Delhi, 9 September 2005.
15 Text of Pakistan India Joint Statement, Daily Times, 5 October 2005.
16 Manmohan Singh open to soft borders with Pakistan, Times of India, New Delhi, 26 May 2004.
17 Manmohan Singh open to soft borders with Pakistan, Times of India, New Delhi, 26 May 2004.
18 Mehreen Zahra Malik, Kashmiris are not tired but they need a change in strategy, Friday Times, 2-8 February 2007.


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## faisal4pro

PlanetWarrior said:


> Yup he is an "Indian journalist" as you claim and he is living in India and exposing Indian terrorism. Thanks for the "informative article" but I do suggest that you stop googling every negative article on India to post on forums as a large percentage of those articles are propaganda without merit


*Thats not propaganda! 

in my neighborhoods, a kashmiri family reside they told me about the terrorism of indian army! thats hilarious! Indian army men do rape of innocent kashmiri girls & women, kill youth and destroy mosques and alot more! they have also seen these incidents and are now residents of pakistan for ever.


*


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## Bhushan

faisal4pro said:


> *Lol.... thats ridiculus that u ppl are not ready to accept criticism! all ur information and pics are fake! he is a genuine real person!
> *



Ok prove it.How are you so confident that he is a genuine real person....... wait a minute..... is it you faisal?


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## faisal4pro

Bhushan said:


> Ok prove it.How are you so confident that he is a genuine real person....... wait a minute..... is it you faisal?


*na me not faisal! m fake 

*


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## PlanetWarrior

faisal4pro said:


> *Thats not propaganda!
> 
> in my neighborhoods, a kashmiri family reside they told me about the terrorism of indian army! thats hilarious! Indian army men do rape of innocent kashmiri girls & women, kill youth and destroy mosques and alot more! they have also seen these incidents and are now residents of pakistan for ever.
> 
> 
> *



Wait. After believing that Abdul Ruff lives in New Delhi *USA* are you sure that your neighbours are from Kashmir and not SWAT area


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## faisal4pro

*This is wt they said! *


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## asq

Rauff or no Rauf, I ask Indians to stop thier trickery again by refusing the discussion by counering it with blah, blah, blah.

Let me say this here, U Indians come clean and allow Amnesty international in once for all and let Anmesty find the truth, But wait a minute, why would you Indian want the truth, U will do any thing for the truth not to come out, 

So what else is new.

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## faisal4pro

*Might be China have no right to be in Kashmir! but who cares? do india care for UN resolutions?*


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## Bhushan

asq said:


> Rauff or no Rauf, I ask Indians to stop thier trickery again by refusing the discussion by counering it with blah, blah, blah.
> 
> Let me say this here, U Indians come clean and allow Amnesty international in once for all and let Anmesty find the truth, But wait a minute, why would you Indian want the truth, U will do any thing for the truth not to come out,
> 
> So what else is new.



There is nothing to discuss when the source is fake.


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## faisal4pro

*every source pointing finger on india is fake!!!! lets celebrate ur thoughts..................*

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## asq

Bhushan did u read my post, let me make it simple for you.

Rauf is fake or not fake, that is not the question, Question is how to find the truth, and the answer is to let someone of global repution as a trust worthy to invetigate the allegations be allowed to invetigate. 

AND THE BEST IS AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL. capish


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## hembo

*Rukhsana's house attacked in Jammu and Kashmir*
Sat, Oct 31 11:09 AM

Jammu, Oct 31 (IANS) Jammu and Kashmir's teen braveheart Rukhsana, who had killed a top Lashkar-e-Taiba commander last month and grabbed national headlines for her show of courage, came under attack again when terrorists fired grenades at her village home. Luckily, no one was present inside the house at the time.

Police said the incident took place late Friday in Kalsi village of Rajouri district, about 180 km from here.

'Rifle grenades were fired at the house and the police post in Kalsi village in Thannaa Mandi area of Rajouri late last (Friday) night,' Rajouri Senior Superintendent of Police Shafaqat Watali told IANS.

Watali said the rifle grenades exploded without causing any loss. Rukhsana, 18, and her family had been shifted to a safe place in Rajouri as an attack was feared. Police had received the intercepts of the militants planning an attack on Rukhsana's house.

'But it (the attack) does speak of their intentions to take revenge from the girl, who killed the LeT militant Abu Osama,' Watali said.

Vigil in the village has been stepped up and police have assured the people that they would be protected.

Rukhsana shot to the limelight after she hit back at terrorists who had barged into her house on Sep 27. Top LeT commander Abu Osama was attacked with an axe and shot at with his own rifle by Rukhsana and her brother Aijaz. She also fired at the two other militants, who were injured but managed to escape.

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## EjazR

Just proves once again what a bunch of cowards these militants are.


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## PlanetWarrior

hembo said:


> *Rukhsana's house attacked in Jammu and Kashmir*
> Sat, Oct 31 11:09 AM
> 
> Jammu, Oct 31 (IANS) Jammu and Kashmir's teen braveheart Rukhsana, who had killed a top Lashkar-e-Taiba commander last month and grabbed national headlines for her show of courage, came under attack again when terrorists fired grenades at her village home. Luckily, no one was present inside the house at the time.
> 
> Police said the incident took place late Friday in Kalsi village of Rajouri district, about 180 km from here.
> 
> 'Rifle grenades were fired at the house and the police post in Kalsi village in Thannaa Mandi area of Rajouri late last (Friday) night,' Rajouri Senior Superintendent of Police Shafaqat Watali told IANS.
> 
> Watali said the rifle grenades exploded without causing any loss. Rukhsana, 18, and her family had been shifted to a safe place in Rajouri as an attack was feared. Police had received the intercepts of the militants planning an attack on Rukhsana's house.
> 
> 'But it (the attack) does speak of their intentions to take revenge from the girl, who killed the LeT militant Abu Osama,' Watali said.
> 
> Vigil in the village has been stepped up and police have assured the people that they would be protected.
> 
> Rukhsana shot to the limelight after she hit back at terrorists who had barged into her house on Sep 27. Top LeT commander Abu Osama was attacked with an axe and shot at with his own rifle by Rukhsana and her brother Aijaz. She also fired at the two other militants, who were injured but managed to escape.



LeT shows their bravery by declaring war on a little girl who wiped out one of their brave jihadis. Yup most Pakistanis who posted that the man killed was a criminal and not a freedom fighter were correct. He did belong to a criminal organisation which targets women after all


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## duhastmish

> Originally Posted by UnitedPak View Post
> Those people were not "freedom fighters". They were kidnappers and terrorists (clearly evident by the fact that they tried to kidnap and kill civilians). Get your labelling right next time.
> 
> These are the freedom fighters. I guess to you they look like LeT agents?



L*OL - IMAGINE IN INDIA - they are even allowed to talk such bullshit !! to have a independent nation. *
*
if it was china , pakestan u.s , or korea .. they will be shot down all of them being called terrorists !!!!!!*

so they should feel happy india's political level is human once it decide to crush them, it will not take more than a couple of weeks to give an end to this saga!!!!

---------------------------------

days are gone - i remember the time when kashmiri people use to have a soft corner for them,- for being fighting for their rights .

but now they are just a bunch of teorrist just like talebani !!!! who deserve nothing more than a few gram of metal in for a bullet pierced in their head !

they have done biggest harm to themselve : making it all political and power gain excersize. 

the dont fight for people they fight for themselve now !


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## KSRaj

Rukhsana meets President, calls it red letter day


Rajouri (J&K): After earning accolades from for her bravery, 22-year old Rukhsana termed today as a "red letter day" after getting a pat from President Pratibha Patil.


"It was a red letter day for me and my family, as President was here to boost my morale and praised brave act. It was an honour to talk to her and get clicked," Rukhsana told reporters soon after 15-minutes interaction with the Supreme Commander of armed forces at the special lounge of the Actual Landing Ground (ALG) here.

"I am encouraged by her pat," the 22-year-old said adding that she narrated the entire incident to the President, as how she killed a Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) militant at her home.

"She (the President) listened with curiosity and patience and praised me for the brave act," Rukhsana said and added, *"My message to her was that girls should be imparted arms training. There is an urgent need for self-defence in remote and mountainous belts."*

The President promised her all possible help.

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## EjazR

*I just wanted to create this thread so that I could clarify doubts in some people's mind about this issue. We all know that many Indian scholars from all over India including from Kashmir have rejected that there is any 'Jiahd" applicable in Kashmir. However, I was recently forwarded some information regarding Pakistani scholars who have reiterated the same in clear terms. Moreover waging a covert war that LeT, AQ type groups indulge in is completely UnIslamic*

Haider Farooq Mawdudi, noted Pakistani Islamic scholar and son of the Late Maulana Sayed-ul-Ala Mawdudi, founder of the Jamaat-e-Islami(JEI), is one of the most vocal critics of the protagonists of 'Jihad' in Kashmir. In an interview given to a Lahore based Urdu magazine 'Diwar-e-Shahar' (August-September, 1998) he has openly come out against the present JEI leadership of Pakistani for supporting militancy in Kashmir. He has refuted 'Jihad' in Kashmir on the grounds that its against the tenets of the Quran as Islam does not permit a covert war. In this connection, quoting his father's stand on the issue, he points out that the double standards in Pakistani policy of pursuing diplomatic relations with India while waging a 'Jihad' against it through covert means. He also castigated the JEI leadership of Pakistan for spending huge amounts on waging 'Jihad' in Kashmir and sacrificing the lives of thousands of innocent and poor people. Excerpts from the interview is reproduced below.

*Question:* In what connection, did you visit India recently and who all did you meet and why?

*Answer:* I met different Muslim leaders, including Kashmiris during my recent visit to India and expressed the view that three wars have been fought between India and Pakistan over Kashmir since their inception fifty years back and therefore, the Kashmir issue should now be solved at any cost and the Kashmiri Muslims should get the same benefits which are being enjoyed by the other Muslims living in India. I told the Kashmiri leaders that they were getting their young generation killed without any reason. The education, economy and everything of Muslims is being destroyed. I asked them to hold talks with the Indian government and get their demands met legitimately and constitutionally.

*Question:* Haider Shahji, what sort of opinion you have given there? On one hand, holy 'Jihad' is being fought in Kashmir while as you are talking about constitutional right, education and economy.

*Answer:* (Retorting back) What kind of 'Jihad' is being fought in Kashmir, you do not know the difference between 'Jihad' and violence. The ongoing blood-bath in Kashmir in the name of 'Jihad' can not even be termed as 'Khurooj'(revolt). You should study the 'Fiqah'(Islamic Law).

*Question:* But the 'Jamaat' of your father, Maulana Abdul Ala Mawdudi declares it as 'Jihad'.

*Answer: *Now, this is no more the 'Jamaat' of my father, this is now the 'Jamaat' of Qazi Hussain Ahmad. My father had categorically refused to accept the ongoing violence in Kashmir as 'Jihad'.

*Question: *What are you talking about? Kashmiris are fighting for their right of self-determination, which has been bluntly rejected by India. The Britishers gave Kashmir to India through a wrongful partition, which Nehru, Mountbatten and Radcliffe had committed through dishonesty?

*Answer:* Maulana Mawdudi, in his interview published in the bi-weekly journal of Jamaat-e-Islami, "Kausar" dated August 17, 1998, has clearly said that the intricacies developed over the Kashmiri issue are the result of the mistakes of 'our' leaders who accepted an ambiguous condition of the Britishers that the accession of any 'Riyasat' to a country would be decided by the Head of the 'Riyasat' and not only by the dominion of the 'Riyasat'. They also left the decision regarding the fixation of borders to Radcliffe and Mountbatten which resulted in the inclusion of Gurdaspur district in the Indian union and it also gave an opportunity to the Hindu King of Kashmir to accede to India.

*Question:* Haider Saheb, you said that it is not lawful according to 'Shariat' to fight against that country with whom 'we' have diplomatic relations?

*Answer: *Don't degrade its importance. I have not said that but Maulana Mawdudi said this. I do not possess such a personality. Maulana Mawdudi has categorically stated that according to 'Quran', it is unlawful to wage a war by a country against the country with which diplomatic relations are maintained. He has further said that it one party commits breach of agreement then the opposite party should first severe diplomatic ties with it and then resort to war-tactics instead of maintaining diplomatic relations overtly and resorting to war-tactics covertly. He stressed that Islam taught 'us' that if we, want to fight against anyone, 'we' should fight openly and if 'we' wish to maintain friendly relations with someone, 'we' should stick to that relation without any prejudice.

*Question:* Haider Sahab, Maulana Mawdudi was a giant personality and a great religious scholar. We should talk about present scenario. Jamaat-e-Islami is still spending a lot on 'Jehad-e-Kashmir' also rendering sacrifices?

*Answer: *Yes, presently the situation is such that Jamaat receives Rs. 60,000/- for every militant killed in Kashmir out this, only 15,000-20,000/- are being given to the families of the martyrs, while as the remaining amount is eaten up by the JEI leaders themselves who have opened a factory of martyrs. JEI leaders have made money by getting others children killed. As far as they themselves are concerned, no son of Qazi Hussain Ahmad was killed either in Afghanistan or Kashmiri, 'Jihad' and his children are leading a luxurious life while studying in the United States.

*The Lucknow based vernacular weekly, 'Jedeed Markaz', published in Urdu and Hindi, has reproduced the said interview on its October 25-31, 1998 edition.*

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## Lion Of Pakistan

EjazR said:


> *I just wanted to create this thread so that I could clarify doubts in some people's mind about this issue. We all know that many Indian scholars from all over India including from Kashmir have rejected that there is any 'Jiahd" applicable in Kashmir. However, I was recently forwarded some information regarding Pakistani scholars who have reiterated the same in clear terms. Moreover waging a covert war that LeT, AQ type groups indulge in is completely UnIslamic*
> 
> Haider Farooq Mawdudi, noted Pakistani Islamic scholar and son of the Late Maulana Sayed-ul-Ala Mawdudi, founder of the Jamaat-e-Islami(JEI), is one of the most vocal critics of the protagonists of 'Jihad' in Kashmir. In an interview given to a Lahore based Urdu magazine 'Diwar-e-Shahar' (August-September, 1998) he has openly come out against the present JEI leadership of Pakistani for supporting militancy in Kashmir. He has refuted 'Jihad' in Kashmir on the grounds that its against the tenets of the Quran as Islam does not permit a covert war. In this connection, quoting his father's stand on the issue, he points out that the double standards in Pakistani policy of pursuing diplomatic relations with India while waging a 'Jihad' against it through covert means. He also castigated the JEI leadership of Pakistan for spending huge amounts on waging 'Jihad' in Kashmir and sacrificing the lives of thousands of innocent and poor people. Excerpts from the interview is reproduced below.
> 
> *Question:* In what connection, did you visit India recently and who all did you meet and why?
> 
> *Answer:* I met different Muslim leaders, including Kashmiris during my recent visit to India and expressed the view that three wars have been fought between India and Pakistan over Kashmir since their inception fifty years back and therefore, the Kashmir issue should now be solved at any cost and the Kashmiri Muslims should get the same benefits which are being enjoyed by the other Muslims living in India. I told the Kashmiri leaders that they were getting their young generation killed without any reason. The education, economy and everything of Muslims is being destroyed. I asked them to hold talks with the Indian government and get their demands met legitimately and constitutionally.
> 
> *Question:* Haider Shahji, what sort of opinion you have given there? On one hand, holy 'Jihad' is being fought in Kashmir while as you are talking about constitutional right, education and economy.
> 
> *Answer:* (Retorting back) What kind of 'Jihad' is being fought in Kashmir, you do not know the difference between 'Jihad' and violence. The ongoing blood-bath in Kashmir in the name of 'Jihad' can not even be termed as 'Khurooj'(revolt). You should study the 'Fiqah'(Islamic Law).
> 
> *Question:* But the 'Jamaat' of your father, Maulana Abdul Ala Mawdudi declares it as 'Jihad'.
> 
> *Answer: *Now, this is no more the 'Jamaat' of my father, this is now the 'Jamaat' of Qazi Hussain Ahmad. My father had categorically refused to accept the ongoing violence in Kashmir as 'Jihad'.
> 
> *Question: *What are you talking about? Kashmiris are fighting for their right of self-determination, which has been bluntly rejected by India. The Britishers gave Kashmir to India through a wrongful partition, which Nehru, Mountbatten and Radcliffe had committed through dishonesty?
> 
> *Answer:* Maulana Mawdudi, in his interview published in the bi-weekly journal of Jamaat-e-Islami, "Kausar" dated August 17, 1998, has clearly said that the intricacies developed over the Kashmiri issue are the result of the mistakes of 'our' leaders who accepted an ambiguous condition of the Britishers that the accession of any 'Riyasat' to a country would be decided by the Head of the 'Riyasat' and not only by the dominion of the 'Riyasat'. They also left the decision regarding the fixation of borders to Radcliffe and Mountbatten which resulted in the inclusion of Gurdaspur district in the Indian union and it also gave an opportunity to the Hindu King of Kashmir to accede to India.
> 
> *Question:* Haider Saheb, you said that it is not lawful according to 'Shariat' to fight against that country with whom 'we' have diplomatic relations?
> 
> *Answer: *Don't degrade its importance. I have not said that but Maulana Mawdudi said this. I do not possess such a personality. Maulana Mawdudi has categorically stated that according to 'Quran', it is unlawful to wage a war by a country against the country with which diplomatic relations are maintained. He has further said that it one party commits breach of agreement then the opposite party should first severe diplomatic ties with it and then resort to war-tactics instead of maintaining diplomatic relations overtly and resorting to war-tactics covertly. He stressed that Islam taught 'us' that if we, want to fight against anyone, 'we' should fight openly and if 'we' wish to maintain friendly relations with someone, 'we' should stick to that relation without any prejudice.
> 
> *Question:* Haider Sahab, Maulana Mawdudi was a giant personality and a great religious scholar. We should talk about present scenario. Jamaat-e-Islami is still spending a lot on 'Jehad-e-Kashmir' also rendering sacrifices?
> 
> *Answer: *Yes, presently the situation is such that Jamaat receives Rs. 60,000/- for every militant killed in Kashmir out this, only 15,000-20,000/- are being given to the families of the martyrs, while as the remaining amount is eaten up by the JEI leaders themselves who have opened a factory of martyrs. JEI leaders have made money by getting others children killed. As far as they themselves are concerned, no son of Qazi Hussain Ahmad was killed either in Afghanistan or Kashmiri, 'Jihad' and his children are leading a luxurious life while studying in the United States.
> 
> *The Lucknow based vernacular weekly, 'Jedeed Markaz', published in Urdu and Hindi, has reproduced the said interview on its October 25-31, 1998 edition.*



Source Please.


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## EjazR

Lion Of Pakistan said:


> Source Please.



It was published in Jadeed Markaz in Luncknow as well as some Pakistani magazines like Diwar-e-Sahar in Lahore

Here is the link for the excerpts
An Interview with Haider Farooq Mawdudi, Noted Pakistani Islamic Scholar


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## FireFighter

EjazR said:


> It was published in Jadeed Markaz in Luncknow as well as some Pakistani magazines like Diwar-e-Sahar in Lahore
> 
> Here is the link for the excerpts
> An Interview with Haider Farooq Mawdudi, Noted Pakistani Islamic Scholar



Your title is very misleading. You quoted one scholar - Mawdudi's son - with very weak credibility in the eyes of the overwhelming majority of the brelwi/deobandi scholars that dominate Pakistan Sunni Clergy. Even the AhleHadith/Salafi scholars wouldn't agree buy your assertion or that of Mawdudi's son if its true. 

I openly challenge you to find even one scholar that supports your argument from the top Deobandi or Brelewi schools of thoughts in all of Pakistan. 


Lastly, going by your stance on the issue, It's apparent that you neither understand the spirit, the essence or the purpose for which Jihad is carried out in Islamic law. living under dar-ul-harb clearly hasn't helped you either...


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The fact that Kashmir is Pakistani Territory is enough of reason for us to engage in battle to get it back - 

1948 UN seize fire was established so that , thru democratic voting 
peopel can choose their destiny , its signed by Indian/Pakistani delegates

Ulema have nothing to do with it - 

Its about freedom of our territory thru democratic means - ASAP


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## 90210

*Haider Farooq Mawdudi is a no body*​
Power flows from the barrel of a gun.

Kashmir issue will only be settled through War.

People might recommend the hypocrisy of talks etc they will not work they have never worked.

India has a bigger gun for now hence it is holding Kashmir for now.


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## A.Rahman

Sounds like a fabrication, or the guy is so poorly paid that he sold his deen and is now on Indian pay roll.

Maybe next he will also say that there is no rape and murder being committed in Kashmir at hands of Indian occupation forces


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## AHMED85

to my mind if any one attacking on Muslim 

than it is essential for other Muslims to help them

so we do out duty  in Kashmir 

and the blood of Kashmiries make Justus 

you will soon watch it


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## faisal4pro

asq said:


> Bhushan did u read my post, let me make it simple for you.
> 
> Rauf is fake or not fake, that is not the question, Question is how to find the truth, and the answer is to let someone of global repution as a trust worthy to invetigate the allegations be allowed to invetigate.
> 
> AND THE BEST IS AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL. capish


*yeah so true!.... if india is so damn confident of Kashmir being a part of india then y not to invite UN?*

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## Goodperson

Bhushan said:


> atlast found his photo.
> 
> Profile - abdulruff - Zimbio
> 
> check out his address
> 
> Personal Info
> Dr.Abdul Ruff Colachal (Male)
> Born on 10-May-77
> *Lives in New Delhi , USA 10005*
> Interests
> reading, writing



Its amusing poster finds an year old bluff article dated 3/26/2008 by Abdull *Bluff*


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## faisal4pro

Goodperson said:


> Its amusing poster finds an year old bluff article dated 3/26/2008 by Abdull *Bluff*


*Thats a blunder dude! gimme the proof that this is the real abdul rauf! surely u cant! as i cant give u proof of his being real abdul rauf - the Indian!*

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## EjazR

*Instead of indulging in character assasination why don't you critique the points he has raised.* 

And let me clarify that this is not his view,* its his father's view as well.* Mawdudi who is the spiritual founder of JI. And he was imprisoned for defying to call this Jihad, so who else will defy the PA/ISI combine and risk being imprisoned in Pakistan?

On the other hand Qazi Hussain makes good money by calling people to the so called Jihad and sends his kids to the US. See the hypocrisy?

Another point to note is that we are specifically talking about Pakistan based groups infiltrating into India across the LoC most of the time with clandestine support from intelligence agencies.

Anyways there are two main points here:
(1) The current J&K govt. is elected by kashmiris and consists of muslims representatives with a popular turnout, so infact they are "ruled" by muslims. They also have freedom to practice their religion unlike China for example where you can't state your relgioon until you turn 18. (No Jihad there ehh? Maybe the intelligence agencies did'nt want that) and even the areas where they are in majority don't have muslim administrators.

(2) Having a covert war is unIslamic. Since the GoP has already signed treaties with India and demarcated the LoC, it has to adhere to it. Supporting or sending fighters across is in violation of this treaty and UnIslamic and pure nifaq and people who indulge in this double game are munafiqs. Jiahd itself is a noble concept where we struggle (not neccessarily militarily) for a just cause and is fought openly not hiding like these groups do which again points to nifaq and they being UnIslamic.

If GoP wants to claim Kashmir, it should break all treaties and publiclly declare war and fight with the PA instead. Keeping honest to your word and upholding your promises and treaties is one of the most important and defning characters of muslims and here is where this "Jihad" fails by going against original and conservative interpratations. Large number of ulema in India including local Kashmiri ulema have already said there is no Jihad. This also includes many pro-independance sepratists.

However, if you still (wrongly) say that it is valid in Kashmir despite the fact that the majority of the people killed by these militants are muslims (BERNAMA - More Muslims Killed In Kashmir By Militants) just because they are "puppets" or are not true muslims. Then you can see why the TTP (wrongly claim) validity for their justification in attacking the GoP and PA/ISI. For their simple minds its quite logical because after all wern't they killing muslim politicians or people who opposed them because they were not "true" muslims and had sold themselves out in Kashmir? And doesn't that same logic apply to the current GoP and PA/ISI that is willingly following the US?

Here are some more links about no Jihad in Kashmir where even the head mufti has endorsed this view http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/archives/archives2008/kashmir20080228d.html
http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/insights/insight9811b.html


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## 90210

EjazR said:


> Instead of indulging in character assasination why don't you critique the points he has raised. And let me clarify that this is not his view,* its his father's view as well.* Mawdudi who is the spiritual founder of JI. And he was imprisoned for defying to call this Jihad, so who else will defy the PA/ISI combine and risk being imprisoned in Pakistan?
> 
> On the other hand Qazi Hussain makes good money by calling people to the so called Jihad and sends his kids to the US. See the hypocrisy?
> 
> Another point to note is that we are specifically talking about Pakistan based groups infiltrating into India across the LoC most of the time with clandestine support from intelligence agencies.
> 
> Anyways there are two main points here:
> (1) The current J&K govt. is elected by kashmiris and consists of muslims representatives with a popular turnout, so infact they are "ruled" by muslims. They also have freedom to practice their religion unlike China for example where you can't state your relgioon until you turn 18. (No Jihad there ehh? Maybe the intelligence agencies did'nt want that) and even the areas where they are in majority don't ahve muslim administrators.
> 
> (2) Having a covert war is unIslamic. Since the GoP has already singed treaties with India and demarcated the LoC it has to adhere to it. Supporting or sending fighters across is in violation of this treaty and UnIslamic and pure nifaq and people who indulge in this double game are munafiqs. Jiahd itself is a noble concept where we struggle (not neccessarily militarily) for a just cause and is fought openly not hiding like these groups do which again points to nifaq and they being UnIslamic.
> If GoP wants to claim Kashmir, it should break all treaties and publiclly declare war and fight with the PA instead. Keeping honest to your word and upholding your promises and treaties is one of the most important and defning characters of muslims and here is where this "Jihad" fails by going against original and conservative interpratations. Large number of ulema in India including local Kashmiri ulema have already said there is no Jihad. This also includes many pro-independance sepratists.
> 
> However, if you still (wrongly) say that it is valid in Kashmir despite the fact that the majority of the people killed by these militants are muslims (BERNAMA - More Muslims Killed In Kashmir By Militants) just because they are "puppets" or are not true muslims. Then you can see why the TTP (wrongly claim) validity for their justification in attacking the GoP and PA/ISI. For their simple minds its quite logical because after all wern't they killing muslim politicians or people who opposed them because they were not "true" muslims and had sold themselves out? And doesn't that same logic apply to the current GoP and PA/ISI that is willingly following the US?



Propoganda post.


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## Halaku Khan

*Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan*
By Iftikhar Gilani

SRINAGAR: Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh envisages open borders between India and Pakistan, former Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) deputy chief minister Muzaffar Hussain Beg said on Sunday. Addressing a seminar, Beg said when a Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) delegation called on Singh during his Srinagar visit, the prime minister shared his vision of soft and open borders between India and Pakistan, just like between the US and Canada. 

I want free borders like the US and Canada, where there is no need of an army, Beg quoted Singh as telling the delegation. Earlier, speakers including PDP patron Mufti Muhammad Sayeed, President Mehbooba Mufti and jurist AG Noorani, asked for an immediate resolution of the Kashmir issue, calling it the greatest threat to peace in South Asia.

Beg proposed making Kashmir a free economic zone so that the process of evolving the South Asian union as envisaged in the SAARC charter could begin. He claimed that the Indian prime minister had reacted favourably to the proposal. Noorani claimed that India and Pakistan had already reached an agreement on Kashmir on the basis of former Pakistani president Pervez Musharrafs four-point formula. 

He said the self-rule document, as presented by the PDP, was an imaginative and creative proposal to settle the Kashmir issue. Noorani also asked Kashmiri leaders to understand Singhs position, who was fighting a tough battle within his own party and within the cabinet to settle issues with Pakistan.



------------------------------

^^^ With appropriate infrastructure such as smart cards, biometric identification, electronic cash etc, "soft borders" are technically feasible.

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## hembo

*Braveheart Rukhsana appointed SPO in J&K police*
Mon, Nov 2 12:31 PM

Jammu, Nov 2 (PTI) Rukhsana Kausar, who shot into limelight by killing a Lashkar-e-Toiba terrorist, has been appointed as special police officer (SPO) along with her brother and uncle in Jammu and Kashmir Police, a police officer said today. The appointment of Rukhsana to the post comes more than a month after she killed a top Pakistani militant of the LeT and injured another on September 27.

Senior Superintendent of Police (SSP), Rajouri, Shafkat Wattali told PTI here that Rukhsana, her brother Aijaz and her uncle Wakalat Hussain, who was injured in the militant attack, have been appointed as SPOs in the police force recently and they were doing their job well. He denied reports in the media that Rukhsana was being shifted to New Delhi for security reasons.

"There is no truth in media reports that Rukhsana or her parents are being shifted to Delhi for security reasons in view of the recent attack by militants on her house on Friday last", he said. Wattali said Rukhsana has gone to New Delhi to attend an award function organised by All India Anti-Terrorist Front headed by M S Bitta.

The award ceremony was originally to be held in Pune but is now being held in Delhi, he said.


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## Halaku Khan

*Bear kills two Hizbul infiltrators in cave - India - The Times of India*

SRINAGAR: It seems these are the worst of times to be a militant in Kashmir. First, a Lashkar-e-Taiba terrorist was axed to death by a teenage girl in Rajouri roughly a month ago. Now, a bear has mauled two Hizbul Mujahideen militants to death as they hid in its cave in Shopian, South Kashmir. 

According to defence spokesman Lt Col J S Brar, the two commanders dared to colonise a bear's cave at Darwal Nar in Pir Panjal in Shopian and paid for it with their lives. For, late on Sunday night, as the two slept, the bear came calling. 

"It attacked the armed militants and killed them on the spot," Brar said. 

It was only on Monday morning that an Army patrol party saw two bodies inside the cave and, on frisking through their clothes, found that they were Hizbul Mujahideen commanders. 

Medical examinations revealed that the two were mauled to death by a bear. The two were identified as Kaisar Ahmad and Saifullah, both residents of Kashmir, the spokesman said. 

Two Ak 47 rifles and some ammunition were recovered from the spot, he added.This is the first known instance in last 20 years of insurgency in J&K of a wild animal attacking and killing militants, who have their hideouts mostly in dense forests or on mountain ranges.

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## third eye

Beastly luck !


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## brahmastra

third eye said:


> Beastly luck !



even animals are against this "freedom fighters" lol....

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## TruthSeeker

If you grow a full bushy beard, a bear may mistake you for someone to have a good time with, and then be disappointed......

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## S-2

Geez this is a morbidly funny story. I've ALWAYS kept my eyes peeled when out in Montana. It's the real deal there and there's ALWAYS somebody getting mauled at some point in the year.

God bless the game wardens for assuring that these fine and proud animals have a place still to roam and do their good work.

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## Bullhead

Can't help ...........Laughing my Azz off.................







Time to recruit some Bears in Indian Army...

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## oceanx

Interesting ... now how do we know the bear(s) weren't working for R.A.W. for the promise of some raw flavour? 

Now seriously, I wouldn't put it past the "anti-insurgency professionals" there to  a couple of trouble-making, disrespectful local boys and dump their bodies in a cave where hungry Kodiaks sniff around ...

Of course, being in the employment of a liberal plutocracy, the honourable Saffron forces could _never _ever stoop to such a low. To even think that would border on libel. I mean, would fellow neo-con eager beaver in the "coalition of the willing", Macedonia, ever pull off a stunt like *that*?

Therefore, I call on everyone to denounce OceanX for being such a shameless conspiracist ... 

And  to the Times of India!

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## Goodperson

It may be conspiracy by RAW against innocent Bears perhaps they killed the terrorist.


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## TruthSeeker

OceanX is a shameless conspiracist! 

[please note that "conspiracist" is not a bona fide English word ....]


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## Halaku Khan

Anybody would be disoriented if they were woken up from deep sleep only to find a raging bear on top of them, that too in the pitch darkness of a cave.

I guess they never had a chance.


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## S-2

I imagine things were fine until one or both woke to the uckky smell and big, warm furry thing settling in for a snooze. 

Now THAT probably set off the fireworks and a bear in a cave would be like a knife fight in a telephone booth.

Not good.

MAN!! I bet that was a bad, bone-crunching, bloody death. Couldn't happen to some finer guys.


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## oceanx

TruthSeeker said:


> OceanX is a shameless conspiracist!
> 
> [please note that "conspiracist" is not a bona fide English word ....]



Always glad to be in for a free ESL lesson.  

And pray tell - is "conspiracist" a Chinese word, oh ye "bona fide" seeker of everlasting truth?


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## RPK

................. 

*Leopard mows down two HM commanders before troopers could catch them* 

Early Times: Leading Newspaper Jammu Kashmir, Latest News about Jammu & Kashmir

11/3/2009 12:00:57 AM 

Early Times Report 
Jammu, Nov 2: In a bizarre incident, first reported case of its kind in 20 years of insurgency in Jammu and Kashmir, the job of a joint hunt team of Police and Army looking for two top militant commanders in South Kashmir forests was made easy as their targets were already eliminated by someone else before they could lay their hands on. The Army and Police have registered success in killing two commanders of the Hizbul Mujahideen but the credit goes to an unexpected third party the leopard. 
Top Hizbul Mujahideen militants identified as Mohammad Amin alias Kaiser and Bashir Ahmed alias Saifullah have been active since 2003 and 2002 respectively. Both belonged to Reasi district of Jammu Division and of late known more among the militant ranks and security forces for forcibly recruiting and then training young boys as guerillas. Bashir had lately becomes the Divisional Commander of the Hizbul Mujahideen for Pir Panchal region. 
Following a tip off, a joint party of Police and Armys 9 Rashtriya Rifles launched a hunt in Dumhal Hanjipora area of Kulgam district in South Kashmir. The security team had learnt that Kaiser and Saifukllah were hiding in the area for quite sometime and were getting in touch with local youths for recruitment, said Army spokesman Lt Col JS Brar. 
As the security team progressed, it came across mutilated bodies of both militant commanders in Dandalu Nallah in Damhal Hanjipiora. In examination it turned out that both had been mowed down by the leopards, already a sign of terror in forest areas of Kashmir and many upper reaches of Jammu region. 
Incidentally, Kaiser and Saifullah became the 39th and 40th victims, respectively, of the leopard attacks in past two years. The man-animal conflict has claimed more than three dozen lives and inflict injuries to more than 350 in the Jammu and Kashmir during the past two years. About a dozen wild animals were also killed by the agitated villagers in retaliation during the same period in the state.


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

nowadays even indian bears are killing militants.....poor terror guys f***ed by bears....


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## oceanx

rpraveenkum said:


> .................
> 
> *Leopard mows down two HM commanders before troopers could catch them*



Are we sure it wasn't a saffron-striped Bengal tiger that did the "patriotic duty"? 

Or could be imported American mountain lions, as we heard from the respected Inter-Hindutva News Service.

Go tiger/bear/lion/coyote/ go! Yeah, go after them Pontiacs


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## TruthSeeker

oceanx said:


> Always glad to be in for a free ESL lesson.
> 
> And pray tell - is "conspiracist" a Chinese word, oh ye "bona fide" seeker of everlasting truth?



My most heartfelt apologies, oceanx. I stand corrected. It seems that Mr. Merriam Webster will let just any old concocted word into the English lexicon. How the language of my birth grows and grows, consuming all words known to man. Who knows what Chinese-inspired words they will approve of next!!

Ta Ta!


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## HAIDER

So, bear confiscated the AK47 ?.....Bear Baba in Kashmir mountain....any wish guys ?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

S-2 said:


> Couldn't happen to some finer guys.



James Madison, Andrew Jackson and some others 'deserving' of such a fate come to mind ...


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## asq

Soft borders are technically feasible but politically impossible.
Indian style is to confuse with opposing views and make it possible.
it is your concoction son. truth is far from it and not probable.
killing, cursing, blaming does not construe it as feasible.
show some decency, new will travel and peace will be imaginable.
if you believe in a bear story, and take it as good news.
than son you have strange sense of humor and have distorted views.
Without proof you jump to conclusions and believe it as gospel.
no names, no faces, no evidence, yet you go for spins and for rumermill.
Media is, as we know works only for selfishness and for exaggeration. 
So son do not believe every thing, it may not be as per your expectations

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## Solomon2

What did Madison do? 

Why do you criticize Jackson - he did, after all, kill Indians! I've always thought Jackson was one of the more interesting presidents because the mental traumas he suffered as a child and young man most closely match those afflicting many Muslims and Arabs today, and his popular appeal to the masses inspired many, just as Muslims and Arabs were inspired by the Nassers of the twentieth century.

***

So, was it a bear, tiger, or leopard? I bet they never got a chance to use their weapons - not in the dark.


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## oceanx

TruthSeeker said:


> My most heartfelt apologies, oceanx. I stand corrected. It seems that Mr. Merriam Webster will let just any old concocted word into the English lexicon. How the language of my birth grows and grows, consuming all words known to man. Who knows what Chinese-inspired words they will approve of next!!



No need to apologize, grampy. I feel your pain ... 

Perhaps the evil CCP let loose a small stash from their pile of electronic US$ on poor, honest Mr. Webster so he felt compelled to change his magnificent wordbook to:

"An American Dictionary of the Chinglish Language"

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Solomon2 said:


> What did Madison do?
> 
> Why do you criticize Jackson - he did, after all, kill Indians! I've always thought Jackson was one of the more interesting presidents because the mental traumas he suffered as a child and young man most closely match those afflicting many Muslims and Arabs today, and his popular appeal to the masses inspired many, just as Muslims and Arabs were inspired by the Nassers of the twentieth century.
> 
> ***


They were all 'terrorist leaders' of course, fighting against the British.


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## oceanx

Solomon2 said:


> ***
> So, was it a bear, tiger, or leopard? I bet they never got a chance to use their weapons - not in the dark.



Where goeth thy wisdom, O Solomon? 

It was the Tasmanian anti-"terrorist" SSG - you know,  that did them in ...


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## scrumpy

asq said:


> Soft borders are technically feasible but politically impossible.
> Indian style is to confuse with opposing views and make it possible.
> it is your concoction son. truth is far from it and not probable.
> killing, cursing, blaming does not construe it as feasible.
> show some decency, new will travel and peace will be imaginable.
> if you believe in a bear story, and take it as good news.
> than son you have strange sense of humor and have distorted views.
> Without proof you jump to conclusions and believe it as gospel.
> no names, no faces, no evidence, yet you go for spins and for rumermill.
> Media is, as we know works only for selfishness and for exaggeration.
> So son do not believe every thing, it may not be as per your expectations



Should I be rapping while reading this ?

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## S-2

Well, evidently there were four of them and two escaped after killing the bear although, according to the latest reports, one of them was also wounded.

May he have left a blood trail to be followed by the bear's cousins...

...or the security forces of Kashmir.

That'll work too.

R.I.P. Mr. Bear. Fine work. Fine, fine work. You'll be sorely missed.

Bear Kills Two Hizbul Militants in J&K

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## adrenalin

scrumpy said:


> Should I be rapping while reading this ?



If this were to happen, there would be more infiltrations across the border. God forbid.


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## King Julien

Manmohan wants open Pak-India border




*Conditions Apply

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## Halaku Khan

asq said:


> Soft borders are technically feasible but politically impossible.
> Indian style is to confuse with opposing views and make it possible.
> it is your concoction son. truth is far from it and not probable.
> killing, cursing, blaming does not construe it as feasible.
> show some decency, new will travel and peace will be imaginable.
> if you believe in a bear story, and take it as good news.
> than son you have strange sense of humor and have distorted views.
> Without proof you jump to conclusions and believe it as gospel.
> no names, no faces, no evidence, yet you go for spins and for rumermill.
> Media is, as we know works only for selfishness and for exaggeration.
> So son do not believe every thing, it may not be as per your expectations



My reaction to the bear story, is the same as what your reaction would have been, had the individuals belonged to the TTP rather than the Hibzul Mujahideen.


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## Bullhead

rpraveenkum said:


> .................
> 
> *Leopard mows down two HM commanders before troopers could catch them*
> 
> Early Times: Leading Newspaper Jammu Kashmir, Latest News about Jammu & Kashmir
> 
> 11/3/2009 12:00:57 AM
> 
> Early Times Report
> Jammu, Nov 2: In a bizarre incident, first reported case of its kind in 20 years of insurgency in Jammu and Kashmir, the job of a joint hunt team of Police and Army looking for two top militant commanders in South Kashmir forests was made easy as their targets were already eliminated by someone else before they could lay their hands on. The Army and Police have registered success in killing two commanders of the Hizbul Mujahideen but the credit goes to an unexpected third party the leopard.
> Top Hizbul Mujahideen militants identified as Mohammad Amin alias Kaiser and Bashir Ahmed alias Saifullah have been active since 2003 and 2002 respectively. Both belonged to Reasi district of Jammu Division and of late known more among the militant ranks and security forces for forcibly recruiting and then training young boys as guerillas. Bashir had lately becomes the Divisional Commander of the Hizbul Mujahideen for Pir Panchal region.
> Following a tip off, a joint party of Police and Armys 9 Rashtriya Rifles launched a hunt in Dumhal Hanjipora area of Kulgam district in South Kashmir. The security team had learnt that Kaiser and Saifukllah were hiding in the area for quite sometime and were getting in touch with local youths for recruitment, said Army spokesman Lt Col JS Brar.
> As the security team progressed, it came across mutilated bodies of both militant commanders in Dandalu Nallah in Damhal Hanjipiora. In examination it turned out that both had been mowed down by the leopards, already a sign of terror in forest areas of Kashmir and many upper reaches of Jammu region.
> Incidentally, Kaiser and Saifullah became the 39th and 40th victims, respectively, of the leopard attacks in past two years. The man-animal conflict has claimed more than three dozen lives and inflict injuries to more than 350 in the Jammu and Kashmir during the past two years. About a dozen wild animals were also killed by the agitated villagers in retaliation during the same period in the state.




Whats up with Indian Wild Animals these days.

They have started behaving like some responsible citizen.


We are serving Terrorist for Dinner:

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## FireFighter

BBC calls the dead militants. CNN calls them separatists. 


But the OP twists these headlines and uses the word 'terrorist' to label the kashmir independence movement. distorting even news headlines to make themselves feel good about justifying oppression in kashmir? haha, thats a new one 


Why are we allowing indian members here to twist news headlines to their agenda driven dishonest propaganda freely dictate the forum?

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## afriend

no open borders brother, we have enough of problems, its always better we don import more. 

And more over usa and canada are two democracies, here it is not the situation.


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## Comet

Brave souls.... Fighting even in the toughest of circumstances!


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## trickey

Halaku Khan said:


> My reaction to the bear story, is the same as what your reaction would have been, had the individuals belonged to the TTP rather than the Hibzul Mujahideen.



My reaction to the bear story would have been the same regardless of the brand name of the terrorist scum.


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## Khajur

S-2 said:


> Well, evidently there were four of them and two escaped after killing the bear although, according to the latest reports, one of them was also wounded.
> 
> May he have left a blood trail to be followed by the bear's cousins...
> 
> ...or the security forces of Kashmir.
> 
> That'll work too.
> 
> R.I.P. Mr. Bear. Fine work. Fine, fine work. You'll be sorely missed.
> 
> Bear Kills Two Hizbul Militants in J&K



*I propose gallantry award for this brave Bear who killed two militants single handedly who tried to occupy his cave from someone no less than the president of india*.

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## Ingis

FireFighter said:


> BBC calls the dead militants. CNN calls them separatists.
> 
> 
> But the OP twists these headlines and uses the word 'terrorist' to label the kashmir independence movement. distorting even news headlines to make themselves feel good about justifying oppression in kashmir? haha, thats a new one
> 
> 
> Why are we allowing indian members here to twist news headlines to their agenda driven dishonest propaganda freely dictate the forum?



Good point. I think "militants" is a more neutral term... right?

How would Pakistanis feel if the TTP fighters, who have killed scores of innocent Pakistanis, are labeled as "militants", "separatists" or better "freedom fighters"?

Anyways, even the Indian media called these two people as "militants" (Hindustan Times) and "infiltrators" (Times of India). So much for "Indian propaganda".


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## amunhotep

well, going by indian claims about ifiltrating militants , one would like to believe that the border is as good as open.

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## Ingis

Khajur said:


> I propose gallantry award for this brave Bear who killed two terroists single handedly who tried to occupy his cave from someone no less than the president of india.



Yup... the bear should be awarded the Ashoka Chakra, India's highest peace time gallantry award, for its valor and courageous action. 

Lol... even bears don't like these militants.

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## S-2

Well, it's all weird as there's an article that these guys were killed by leopards which have killed 40 humans this year in the area. rpraveenkum has it posted above and the names and alias match exactly. 

Yet the other article claims that a bear's body was recovered that had been killed by the terrorists and that the fight had occurred in a cave where they and two accomplices were cooking food.

So at this point all that seems clear is that these perps were killed by animals.

_Leopards and tigers and bears...Oh MY!! Leopards and tigers and bears...Oh My!!_

Anyway, a sh!tty way to die regardless. Personally I'm betting on the bear as the killer. We've cougars here in Oregon and they'll attack but I'm unaware of a cougar attack on a group of grown men whom are together. Usually have to be alone.


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## praveen

chicku said:


> Isnt sardar gone mad....all the useless will come to india for work....
> and even the border are closed they are creating trouble..


may be he is implying the opposite .Seal it (Chanakyian may be)


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## AchtungSpitfire

Yogi and his ursine colleagues were recruited 2 years ago by CIA Special Ops and trained in the Rockies to sniff out malefactors. Before being HALO dropped into Kashmir they had accounted for 2 Park Rangers,3 picnickers and a couple of unsuspecting a$sbandits. Go Bears!

As a Cal alum I just had to.....


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## Spring Onion

The easiest way to kill some innocents and put the blam on a bear.

BTW is the bear going to get highest Indian military award

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## Spring Onion

Bullhead said:


> Time to recruit some Bears in Indian Army...



 yeh that could controle some suicide rate among Indian soldiers in Held Kashmir. Good idea

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## vsdoc

Btw Jana, in case you missed it the first time around ...... the *Indian* bear was *nude* (full monty - not *"just topless"* ..... tut tut) ..... but we have really no idea *yet* whether it was a *Muslim* bear or a *Hindu* one (all that we know is that he was a brave *Kashmiri Indian*), *divine* or not, *male* or *female*. Either way, he has become a posthomous *legend* here in India! R.I.P.

Cheers, Doc

*P.S.* And oh yes Jana, apparently .....

*Legend Kashmiri Indian Hindu/Muslim Bear doesn't trust Pakistan*

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## Adios Amigo

vsdoc said:


> Btw Jana, in case you missed it the first time around ...... the *Indian* bear was *nude* (full monty - not *"just topless"* ..... tut tut) ..... but we have really no idea *yet* whether it was a *Muslim* bear or a *Hindu* one (all that we know is that he was a brave *Kashmiri Indian*), *divine* or not, *male* or *female*. Either way, he has become a posthomous *legend* here in India! R.I.P.
> 
> Cheers, Doc
> 
> *P.S.* And oh yes Jana, apparently .....
> 
> *Legend Kashmiri Indian Hindu/Muslim Bear doesn't trust Pakistan*



was that a joke poor attempt


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## Kaali

Jana said:


> *The easiest way to kill some innocents and put the blam on a bear.*
> 
> BTW is the bear going to get highest Indian military award



As per your reporting_

"Innocent people with Aks were killed by horrible hindoo indian army when they were innocently crossing the border of India and blamed it on some hindoo bear"_


I wonder when are you going to protest against the beers for killing your innocent freedom fighters.

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## PlanetWarrior

Animal on animal violence ? 

Savage way for any human to die. But why were these militants sleeping in a cave? First they try to take Rukshana's house and when that fails they move over to Bali's cave. In both instances they are met with sharp objects. Lord Rama used monkeys and bears and other wild animals to defeat Ravana. Is Manmohan Singh using the same military tactic in Kashmir to fight the militants whom India perceives as Ravanas ?


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## FireFighter

"Dushman maray te Khush na hoe'yay, sajna we marjana hai" Bulleh Shah

(Roughly translated: When enemy dies we show no happiness, friends die too") 

A famous saying from a great Hindustani for ya'll




Ingis said:


> Good point. I think "militants" is a more neutral term... right?
> 
> How would Pakistanis feel if the TTP fighters, who have killed scores of innocent Pakistanis, are labeled as "militants", "separatists" or better "freedom fighters"?


TTP are Uzbek, afghans and arabs with a handful of tribals. ALL are foreigners and have no passports and have nothing to do with Pakistan's internal affairs. 

Whereas the separatist militants are exclusively Kashmiris vast majority and the movement is very indegenious. 

and that refutes your entire argument 



> Anyways, even the Indian media called these two people as "militants" (Hindustan Times) and "infiltrators" (Times of India). So much for "Indian propaganda".


time to take heed from your own source then, i suppose

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## Spring Onion

vsdoc said:


> Btw Jana, in case you missed it the first time around ...... the *Indian* bear was *nude* (full monty - not *"just topless"* ..... tut tut) ..... but we have really no idea *yet* whether it was a *Muslim* bear or a *Hindu* one (all that we know is that he was a brave *Kashmiri Indian*), *divine* or not, *male* or *female*. Either way, he has become a posthomous *legend* here in India! R.I.P.
> 
> Cheers, Doc
> 
> *P.S.* And oh yes Jana, apparently .....
> 
> *Legend Kashmiri Indian Hindu/Muslim Bear doesn't trust Pakistan*



bwahhhhahahahah he/she should be in orange or a tricolor bear but Not Kashmiri indeed.


On the other hand i am thinking if the pudding the Hizb men cooked was made in Pakistan or Made in India

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## Spring Onion

Kaali said:


> As per your reporting_
> 
> "Innocent people with Aks were killed by horrible hindoo indian army when they were innocently crossing the border of India and blamed it on some hindoo bear"_
> 
> 
> I wonder when are you going to protest against the beers for killing your innocent freedom fighters.




*Fake Encounter Killings Epidemic*
In Human Rights, Innocent Killings, Kashmir, News, People on 16 February, 2007 at 8:50 pm

Fake killings an epidemic and standard procedure of the police

This epidemic of fake encounter killings by the security forces has plagued Kashmir for too long, said Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch. The police must stop their standard operating procedure of killing people in custody.

Too often we find that Indias security forces are deemed above the law and are spared criminal prosecution despite committing grave human rights abuses.

Extrajudicial executions by Indian security forces are common.

courtesy of Human Rights Watch

Revelations confirm what Kashmiris have been alleging all along

Recent revelations have confirmed what families in Kashmir have been alleging all along, said Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch. The Indian security forces have disappeared countless people in Jammu and Kashmir since 1989 and staged fake encounter killings while fabricating claims that those killed were militants.

When there are public demonstrations protesting a fake encounter killing, the official response usually is to offer an oral assurance of an inquiry, though these rarely happen. If such inquiries do take place, the findings are seldom made public. If any action is taken against those found responsible, that too is rarely made public.

*courtesy of Human Rights Watch*
Fake ?Encounter Killings? Epidemic ~ Kashmir ~

*SHRC confirms fake encounter *


Shopian student was picked up in 2003, killed in staged gunfight
Rashid Paul
Srinagar, Oct 23: State Human Rights Commission (SHRC) Thursday confirmed that five years back troops killed a student from South Kashmir in a fake encounter at Nadigam, Shopian.
Acting on a petition by the father of a slain youth, SHRCs incumbent caretaker Habibullah Bhat said: The SHRC is of firm opinion that the killing of Muhammad Abbas Tantray son of Ghulam Qadir of Nowpora Shopian was a fake encounter case. 
The father of the killed youth had approached Divisional Commissioner Kashmir for investigation into the killing of his innocent son but it fell on deaf ears, the Commission observed. No action was taken under law.
According to the petitioner, Tantray was studying at Jamiatul Falah Bilariya Azamgarh in Uttar Pradesh and had come to his home during vacation. 
However he was picked by troops and killed in a stage managed encounter in January 2003.
The contention of the applicant was authenticated by District Magistrate Pulwama. 
The SHRC official stated that as reported and verified by SSP Pulwama vide No CS/2001-2323 on December 15, 2002 there is nothing adverse against Muhammed Abbas.
The argument of the victim is also substantiated by the character certificate issued by the Azamgarh school, which said Tantray was admitted in the institute in 1997 and studied there for six incessant years as a regular student, the official stated. He was not connected to any illegal outfit during this period.
The village numberdar and chowkidar also said Tantray was a student when his body was suddenly brought to the police station.
However, Director General of Police in 2005 reported to SHRC that Tantray was killed in an encounter with troops at Nadigam Shopian. He also claimed recovery of an AK-47 rifle with 29 magazines from his possession.
The SHRC acting chairperson concluded that the field reports by the government agencies nowhere mention that the slain youth was a militant and killed in an encounter. The character certificate issued by the Additional District Magistrate Pulwama has exonerated Tantray for having any involvement.
Tantrays parents are victims of fake encounter, the SHRC held.
The Commission recommended an ex gratia of Rs 1 lakh and benefit of SRO 43 in their favour adding that in case the SRO benefit is not extended, their ex gratia be enhanced to Rs 5 lakh.


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## kumar_V1.0

Jana said:


> bwahhhhahahahah he/she should be in orange or a tricolor bear but Not Kashmiri indeed.
> 
> 
> On the other hand i am thinking if the pudding the Hizb men cooked was made in Pakistan or Made in India



Jana Ji, It has been confirmed that the beer was ethnic kasmhiri.

Poor chap never travelled out of kashmir in life.

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## Spring Onion

kumar_V1.0 said:


> Jana Ji, It has been confirmed that the beer was ethnic kasmhiri.
> 
> Poor chap never travelled out of kashmir in life.



Ahh i wonder he did not get a visa to India. hard luck seems he was from Pakistan


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## graphican

brahmastra said:


> even animals are against this "freedom fighters" lol....



Yes only animals are against freedom fighters.


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## PlanetWarrior

graphican said:


> Yes only animals are against freedom fighters.



That is quite an insult to the PDF in Baluch and the PDF matyrs who laid down their lives against the so called Taliban freedom fighters in Pakistan


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## EagleEyes

> I wonder when are you going to protest against the beers for killing your innocent freedom fighters.



huh..makes no sense.

Can anyone else understand this?


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## New Shivaji

Those bears might be working for RAW / MOSSAD / CIA to undermine the so called freedom fighters.


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## adrenalin

oceanx said:


> Interesting ... now how do we know the bear(s) weren't working for R.A.W. for the promise of some raw flavour?
> 
> Now seriously, I wouldn't put it past the "anti-insurgency professionals" there to  a couple of trouble-making, disrespectful local boys and dump their bodies in a cave where hungry Kodiaks sniff around ...
> 
> Of course, being in the employment of a liberal plutocracy, the honourable Saffron forces could _never _ever stoop to such a low. To even think that would border on libel. I mean, would fellow neo-con eager beaver in the "coalition of the willing", Macedonia, ever pull off a stunt like *that*?
> 
> Therefore, I call on everyone to denounce OceanX for being such a shameless conspiracist ...
> 
> And  to the Times of India!



It isn't RAW, it's the Chinese working against the Pakistani Gov, Coz' they fear their *** being fried by the Americans.


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## deckingraj

hahahahha ....this thread is really funny....How ironical is this that we(indians and Pakistanis) can debate on bear killing two terrorists as well...wow..from awarding them Ashoka chakra to being hired by CIA,MOsad, RAw agent...to altogether a different angle of them being killed by security person and then blaiming the bears...

I hope i have not missed any thing here but sounds like another bolywood plot...Mr Ramu(Ram Gopal Verma) are you listening...


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## graphican

PlanetWarrior said:


> That is quite an insult to the PDF in Baluch and the PDF matyrs who laid down their lives against the so called *Taliban freedom fighters in Pakistan*



No wonder you've chosen a freaking clown as your display image on PDF.. your point is not better than they way you dressed yourself up.

Regarding Kashmir, death of a "freedom fight by a lady" and death of "two freedom fighters" gave you enough cheeks to come and talk of freedom fighters loosing. Just go and visit some resource (even if that is Indian) to get enlightened how many hounds in uniform killed how many people who were sleeping in their homes in the same territory of Jammu and Kashmir!


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## deckingraj

> No wonder you've chosen a freaking clown as your display image on PDF.. your point is not better than they way you dressed yourself up.
> 
> Regarding Kashmir, death of a "freedom fight by a lady" and death of "two freedom fighters" gave you enough cheeks to come and talk of freedom fighters loosing. Just go and visit some resource (even if that is Indian) to get enlightened how many hounds in uniform killed how many people who were sleeping in their homes in the same territory of Jammu and Kashmir!






Well may be the same applies to you. Though i won't use the same wording that you have choosen yet the fact wont change. No one in india says that there are no human rights violations in J&K...but along with that your so called freedom fighters are foreigners who inflitrate from across the border to create havoc in Kashmir. I don't mind if you want to stick to your belief of freedom fighters but then please don't act as a saint and preach others...

Kashmir as of now is very peaceful and hopefully things will change for better sooner than later.

@Back to topic

Mods..i am not sure if this thread can add any meaningful value to PDF apart from revolving around the same discussions about kashmir issue...human rights...freedom fighters vs terrorists etc etc. So i would suggest to close it...


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## asq

what is chanakyian, is it chalakian parveen, u r referring to. anyhow the scenery in Norht America is a mutual respect based on goodness and decency.

In the time of chaos during FLQ crisis, Un like India, U.S. stood by Canada and discouraged FLQ by refusing to even consider to talk to them, instead U.S,. said told them that U.S. is not interested in breaking Canada and if it quebec separated from Canada U.S. will not allow trade through its territory.

And that my friends made Canada convinced that U.S is the best neighbor and ally one can have. 

And that is one of the major reason Canada they are good friends and none of them acts like a master or bully. and that is why Canada and U.S. borders are open the way they are.

In order to have the borders like North America, India must act like U.S and not like an adversary and bully.

Obama &#039;renews friendship&#039; Video Portal of Georgia, Online Education, on-line univercity courses and degree materials


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## deckingraj

Relax Guys...

It is his wish...I dont see anything wrong in that..Just imagine if we can live like good neighbours our economy will boom and eventually will lead to prosperous south Asia..



> In order to have the borders like North America, India must act like U.S and not like an adversary and bully.


.
Its thinking like this which will prevent from any peaceful settlement leave aside porus border...My country a saint and your country bully...


I would like to remind memebers here about what Europe did right after world war II... They destroyed each other and with in a decade come EU and today they have one currency..open borders and largest GDP in the world. So all those who thinks that Mr. Manmohan Singh has lost it should do some reality check and tighten their screws(if any)...Now is it possible in the current scenario..Absolutely NO...Will it ever happen??...May be..but is it a great thought??...Absolutely YES


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## Vassnti

Proof India is smuggling bears into Kashmir

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## Iggy

Vassnti said:


> Proof India is smuggling bears into Kashmir



lolz..RAW agents caught on camera

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## asq

Pakistan has not done any thing wrong to India and that ids the truth and we the Pakistani are on high moral grounds.

India on the other hand.

Babri mosque.
Kashmir.
Juna Garh.
Hyder abad
East Pakistan
Stealing water.
Mass killing of Muslims in Gujrat

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## SecularHumanist

Its a CIA-Raw-Mossad conspiracy against the brave freedom fighters 

Source: Zaid Hamid

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## graphican

If this soft border is on the cost of Kashmir then NO SIR! Keep this "Open" thing within your closed mouth.


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## MilesTogo

self-delete


asq said:


> Pakistan has not done any thing wrong to India and that ids the truth and we the Pakistani are on high moral grounds.
> 
> India on the other hand.
> 
> Babri mosque.
> Kashmir.
> Juna Garh.
> Hyder abad
> East Pakistan
> Stealing water.
> Mass killing of Muslims in Gujrat

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## Kaali

May be that bear was trained in the Indian consulate in Afghanistan. And the name of the bear was Amar Singh. the beer was Indian because he does not look Kashmiri.


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## bones20

Kaali said:


> May be that bear was trained in the Indian consulate in Afghanistan. And the name of the bear was Amar Singh. the beer was Indian because he does not look Kashmiri.


You are saying the bear was a non state actor?


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## PlanetWarrior

graphican said:


> No wonder you've chosen a freaking clown as your display image on PDF.. your point is not better than they way you dressed yourself up.
> 
> Regarding Kashmir, death of a "freedom fight by a lady" and death of "two freedom fighters" gave you enough cheeks to come and talk of freedom fighters loosing. Just go and visit some resource (even if that is Indian) to get enlightened how many hounds in uniform killed how many people who were sleeping in their homes in the same territory of Jammu and Kashmir!



 My "display image" or icon is by no means a reflection of my views on this forum for starters. You should take a chill pill and realise that you and your views do certainly NOT reflect the lion's roar of Pakistan. Continue deluding yourself if you believe so otherwise.

I never discussed the issue of "freedom fighters loosing". I may have condemned violence in Kashmir but that condemnation is across the board and includes allegations of Indian military violence whether it be against the people or the captured militants. By the same token it has always been my view that when any soldier crosses the line and acts unlawfully then he must be punished accordingly. I am tempted to state that at least our hounds remain in uniform whilst yours disguise themselves as civilians but I shall refrain from petty posturing unlike you.


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## asq

MilesTogo said:


> self-delete[/qu


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## asq

MilesTogo said:


> self-delete




pressed the wrong button. Did not mean to thank.


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## Goodperson

asq said:


> pressed the wrong button. Did not mean to thank.



Well you can remove your thanks.


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## oceanx

asq said:


> Soft borders are technically feasible but politically impossible.
> Indian style is to confuse with opposing views and make it possible.
> it is your concoction son. truth is far from it and not probable.
> killing, cursing, blaming does not construe it as feasible.
> show some decency, new will travel and peace will be imaginable.
> if you believe in a bear story, and take it as good news.
> than son you have strange sense of humor and have distorted views.
> Without proof you jump to conclusions and believe it as gospel.
> no names, no faces, no evidence, yet you go for spins and for rumermill.
> Media is, as we know works only for selfishness and for exaggeration.
> So son do not believe every thing, it may not be as per your expectations



Except for the occasional typos and misspells, this kind of effort should be appreciated.


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## EjazR

Pakistan swoops down on separatists before Gilgit-Baltistan polls :: Samay Live

Srinagar: Hundreds of separatist leaders in Gilgit-Baltistan, part of Pakistan-administered Kashmir, have been arrested and sent off to Islamabad ahead of the Nov 12 assembly elections in the strategic border region, says a prominent leader of the region that has recently been given the powers of a federal province.	

"Top leaders of the Gilgit-Baltistan Democratic Alliance (GBDA) have been detained by the Pakistan occupying regime," Abdul Hamid Khan, the chairperson of the Balawaristan National Front (BNF), wrote to IANS in an email.	

"The GBDA had fielded its candidates for the elections. However, in order to prevent them from campaigning, they have been detained and expelled to Islamabad," Khan said.	

"The detention of hundreds of GBDA leaders and workers exposed the fraud elections of Pakistan."	

The GBDA, of which the BNF is a constituent, is an alliance of the separatist political parties in the Northern Areas - officially renamed Gilgit-Baltistan after the Pakistan cabinet approved the Gilgit-Baltistan Empowerment and Self Governance Order, 2009, in August.	

The self-governance order empowers the local assembly to elect its chief minister. The Pakistan president will appoint a governor for the region that was earlier under Islamabad's direct control.	

Like other provinces, the assembly will have no control over defence and the treasury.	

The resource-rich territory, part of the erstwhile undivided Jammu and Kashmir, has seen a separatist movement gaining momentum over the past few years.	

Alarmingly low literacy levels, the absence of industry, deplorable road and communication links, poor energy sources and and the lack of job opportunities have fuelled the rebellion in the region, which was part of Jammu and Kashmir before Pakistan militarily occupied some parts in 1948.	

Many separatists have rejected the Nov 12 elections as "illegal" and called for a boycott. Others, including the GBDA, decided to challenge the process by participating in "whatever democratic space was there".	

Islamabad, Khan said, had given "all the facilities and huge funds to pro-Pakistan parties".	

"The two million indigenous people are not allowed to raise their voices and they don't have access to justice, education and huge natural resources," he added.	

According to him, "Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) has also threatened student groups with dire consequences and warned that the nationalist candidates won't be allowed in the elections".	

Also known as the Karakoram region, Gilgit-Baltistan extends from Shinaki Kohistan to Chitral (in Pakistan) up to Tashkurgan (under Chinese occupation) and from Ladakh to Kargil in India.	

When British rule ended in 1947, the region was conquered by Pakistan in tribal raids. Pakistan later "gifted" a part of the territory towards the extreme north to China. Stringent laws make the region inaccessible to foreigners and there are few media reports from the region.

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## Awesome

Pathetic if true... This government has learned nothing from the "relics of the past" it often invokes.


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## kidwaibhai

ok this is an indian site so i dont know how accurate this really is. i have been searching pakistani newspapers and i have found nothing. so lets take this with a grain of salt


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## EjazR

Its only very recent news so it may take time to filter out. Here is an alternative Kashmiri and Pro-Pakistani website with no relation to the IANS news agency that first reported the story. It also have names of leaders as well
A third government within Jammu & Kashmir state


> Top leadership of Gilgit Baltistan Democratic Alliance (GBDA) and Jammu Kashmir All Parties National Alliance (APNA) along with all three GBDA candidates for Gilgit constituencies for Legislative Assembly elections to be held on 12th November were detained prior to the election rally here in Gilgit. According to the latest news from Gilgit through sources that ca not be disclosed, the leaders of APNA including its chair and ex member of Gilgit Baltistan Council, Mr Wajahat Hassan, Secretary Gen. Arif Shahid, Col (rtd) Nadir Hassan and Engineer Amanullah Khan (not the JKLF supremo) were later forcibly expelled to Islamabad, the Pakistani capital. Three detained candidates are named as Shahid Hussain for LA Gilgit 1, Advocate Mohammed Farooq LA Gilgit 2 and Afsar Jan LA Gilgit 3. Other detainees include Avocate Ehsan Ali former President of GB Bar Council, Mohammed Javed former member of District Council and several others whose names have not been confirmed as yet.


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## TaimiKhan

EjazR said:


> Pakistan swoops down on separatists before Gilgit-Baltistan polls :: Samay Live
> 
> Srinagar: *Hundreds of separatist leaders in Gilgit-Baltistan, part of Pakistan-administered Kashmir,* *have been arrested and sent off to Islamabad ahead of the Nov 12 assembly elections in the strategic border region, says a prominent leader of the region that has recently been given the powers of a federal province.
> *
> *"Top leaders of the Gilgit-Baltistan Democratic Alliance (GBDA) have been detained by the Pakistan occupying regime," Abdul Hamid Khan, the chairperson of the Balawaristan National Front (BNF), wrote to IANS in an email.*
> 
> "The GBDA had fielded its candidates for the elections. However, in order to prevent them from campaigning, they have been detained and expelled to Islamabad," Khan said.
> 
> *"The detention of hundreds of GBDA leaders and workers exposed the fraud elections of Pakistan."	*
> 
> The GBDA, of which the BNF is a constituent, is an alliance of the separatist political parties in the Northern Areas - officially renamed Gilgit-Baltistan after the Pakistan cabinet approved the Gilgit-Baltistan Empowerment and Self Governance Order, 2009, in August.
> 
> The self-governance order empowers the local assembly to elect its chief minister. The Pakistan president will appoint a governor for the region that was earlier under Islamabad's direct control.
> 
> Like other provinces, the assembly will have no control over defence and the treasury.
> 
> The resource-rich territory, part of the erstwhile undivided Jammu and Kashmir, has seen a separatist movement gaining momentum over the past few years.
> 
> *Alarmingly low literacy levels, the absence of industry, deplorable road and communication links, poor energy sources and and the lack of job opportunities have fuelled the rebellion in the region, which was part of Jammu and Kashmir before Pakistan militarily occupied some parts in 1948.
> *
> Many separatists have rejected the Nov 12 elections as "illegal" and called for a boycott. Others, including the GBDA, decided to challenge the process by participating in "whatever democratic space was there".
> 
> Islamabad, Khan said, had given "all the facilities and huge funds to pro-Pakistan parties".
> *
> "The two million indigenous people are not allowed to raise their voices and they don't have access to justice, education and huge natural resources," he added.	*
> 
> *According to him, "Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) has also threatened student groups with dire consequences and warned that the nationalist candidates won't be allowed in the elections".	*
> 
> Also known as the Karakoram region, Gilgit-Baltistan extends from Shinaki Kohistan to Chitral (in Pakistan) up to Tashkurgan (under Chinese occupation) and from Ladakh to Kargil in India.
> 
> When British rule ended in 1947, the region was conquered by Pakistan in tribal raids. Pakistan later "gifted" a part of the territory towards the extreme north to China. *Stringent laws make the region inaccessible to foreigners and there are few media reports from the region.*



This i call the height of yellow journalism, yellow journalism at its best. 

If the Pakistani media can show the interviews of baloch nationalist-indian paid goons on our free media news channels speaking against Pakistan and accepting outside help and talking of independence, then who is stopping these so called freedom & rights lovers to come on the Pakistani media?? ISI controlling them and arresting them, that's news for me, if ISI is so effective why don't we use them in Balochistan too for their such high efficiency. 

And the 2.m Million people of this area asking for freedom, well it really astonishes me that if the people of this area are so much fed up of Pakistan, then why are there some 20,000+ troops in the Pakistan Army, the majority of the troops taking part in Kargil were the very own NLI units composed of people from this area and they whooped the arses of Indians, not only in Kargil but before that also and would do that in future too. Who is asking them to whoop the arses of Indians if they are so much India loving, or even join PA ?? Pathetic Indian journalism. 

And as for the last highlighted part, *Stringent laws make the region inaccessible to foreigners and there are few media reports from the region.*, whoever wrote this article seriously needs to leave journalism and do something better for his/her country. This area is the hub of the international tourists, Pakistan's most favorite and popular festival is held there each year, where hundreds of international tourists, many times international political figures have been invited and came to see it, all the international climbers go to this area to go to K-2, Nanga Parbat or other mountain peaks and the Indian dude has to write this ***** up. If there is another word then Pathetic for such journalism, it should be used as it deserves that.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Though I agree with Ejaz that the news may take time to filter out, it is surprising that there has been no mention of this in the Pakistani media, given how they have, especially of late, not pulled punches when it comes to highlighting seperatist sentiment and the detentions (often described as illegal and counterporductive) of nationalist and seperatist leaders in Baluchistan.

We have seen tons of commentary on the pros and cons of the G-B autonomy package, some very critical, so I would expect to see something on this as well.

The numbers of 'expelled' leaders might be much smaller than claimed (or non-existent) which is why it may not be a big story yet, but again, we should give it some more time before dismissing it completely.


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## dabong1

These groups make me laugh.....every person has a title and nobody can be just a supporter unless he has a title......chairman-president-secretary-vice chairman-regional secretary-treasurer and on and on.
Theres more titles then members.


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## asq

Thanks oceanx.


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## Omar1984

To have open borders you must first develop trust and friendship. Pakistan doesn't even have open borders with China, even though China is Pakistan's best friend. Also in this day and age of "War on Terror" its best to secure all borders, best for Pakistan and best for India because we dont want to be blamed for anything that happens in India.

And its ridiculous to compare US-Canada to Pakistan and India. US and Canada never fought any wars against each other over a territory, instead Canada sold parts of its territory to the US.


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## deckingraj

> And its ridiculous to compare US-Canada to Pakistan and India. US and Canada never fought any wars against each other over a territory, instead Canada sold parts of its territory to the US.




It was rediculous to think that after world war europe will unite again and EU will evolve with open borders..single currency and world higheest GDP...

It was rediculous to think that berlin wall will fall and east germany and west germany will unite

It was rediculous to think during cold war that US and Russia can live together and can improve relations... 

All this happened brother...Who knows India Pak can also learn to live amicably...What say??

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## EjazR

samay will have some indian tilt ofcourse but I would focusson the quoted parts only that is from the BNF chariman and a member of the GBDA. This is ofcourse only his view but most of these people actually welcomed the GB package unlike the people from mirpur and muzaffarabad who opposed it and said that GB should be united under a common govt. So if these very people are raising voices that welcomed the GB package with reservations then its something different.

There are more reports now but not on mainstream pakistani news sources yet but mainly on kashmiri news sources about the detentions and even boycott call from the GBDA.
[Breaking News] GBDA announces boycott of elections in 4 constituencies 

The full press release from BNF chariman that samay and kashmir watch based their report on is here
Gilgit Baltistan Democratic Alliance (GBDA) Leaders Detained before Election in Gilgit Indus Asia Online Journal (iaoj)


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## Stealth

deckingraj said:


> It was rediculous to think that after world war europe will unite again and EU will evolve with open borders..single currency and world higheest GDP...
> 
> It was rediculous to think that berlin wall will fall and east germany and west germany will unite
> 
> It was rediculous to think during cold war that US and Russia can live together and can improve relations...
> 
> All this happened brother...Who knows India Pak can also learn to live amicably...What say??



Simple answer of your statement is:

NO ONE BACK BEHIND (intructions) Russia US
East or West Germany
US and Canada


We have different Situation

Behind India (Israel and US) behind Pakistan (America for just DO MORE)

different situation simple example for you is forget politics even in Cricket you did enough propoganda in ICC after 26/11. So Russia USA Canada Germany thy are resposible countries (for thr own goals) on the other hand we both work for US and YES U AND US work for only US and thr objects (we work for US objectives) and you work for (Pro Israel objective).

Never happen!


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## humblehobbes

asq said:


> Pakistan has not done any thing wrong to India and that ids the truth and we the Pakistani are on high moral grounds.
> 
> India on the other hand.
> 
> Babri mosque.
> Kashmir.
> Juna Garh.
> Hyder abad
> East Pakistan
> Stealing water.
> Mass killing of Muslims in Gujrat



Too bad.. Let me give a proper reply for you post..
Babri Mosque - Strictly internal affairs.. Hold your nose out of it.. After all it happened in the land of toiletless people
Kashmir - Under Dispute.. I agree.. 
Junagarh - Hello brother. the year is 2009. Junagarh people are as Indian as would be the people in Baltistan and northern Areas are Pakistanie
Hyderabad - Mention this in Hyderabad near Gachhi bowli Cricket stadium and let me know what happens..
or if you meant the Hyderabad in Pakistan, I am all for it.
East Pakistan - So its done and dusted now.. As is the case with Baltistan, Northern Areas and Kashmir under the Pakistani side.. If you have any issues now, go speak with the Banglas.. Let see how much of your arguments stand
Stealing water - too bad, you wanted the down stream regions  cant help it
Mass killings of Muslims in Gujarat - What has it got to do with Indo-pak. Gujarat is on this side of the Border.. Remember? this is not Gujrat.. this is Gujarat. Strictly internal affairs. Then we will have to rake up every issue that has been faced By Pakistani hindu's

and I forgot... 

What about Kashmir lands which you ceded to China.. You were the one who brought in a 3rd person in the whole equation

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## deckingraj

> If this soft border is on the cost of Kashmir then NO SIR! Keep this "Open" thing within your closed mouth.



Then come and get it from us....Can you??? If the sincere answer to that is no then open you closed mouth and think about the millions deprived masses on both sides including Kashmiri's and ask yourself what we did in last 62 years is worth that we shall keep on doing or shall we change our way of thinking???


If by any chance your answer is yes then with all due respect you have lost your mind because of sheer hatred and ego... 




> Pakistan has not done any thing wrong to India and that ids the truth and we the Pakistani are on high moral grounds.
> 
> India on the other hand.
> 
> Babri mosque.
> Kashmir.
> Juna Garh.
> Hyder abad
> East Pakistan
> Stealing water.
> Mass killing of Muslims in Gujrat



I dont blame you for this kind of rant...You know its bull **** like this which unfortunately comes from mouth of people on both sides and make us blind to see all our claims are nothing but piece of crap...Anyways as per the jargon of tis forum i have one word for you "TROLL"


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## deckingraj

> Simple answer of your statement is:
> 
> NO ONE BACK BEHIND (intructions) Russia US
> East or West Germany
> US and Canada



With all due respect you being a moderator i have lot of expectations from people like you... Never mind you missed my point..POint was simple those things no-onje could have imagined but they happened..can they happen in our case??? I believe it can but its a long difficult path...




> We have different Situation



Agreed we have a different situation...


> Behind India (Israel and US) behind Pakistan (America for just DO MORE)



Sorry what you mean here??? Are you saying its Israel and US that are responsible for animosity between us???



> different situation simple example for you is forget politics even in Cricket you did enough propoganda in ICC after 26/11. So Russia USA Canada Germany thy are resposible countries (for thr own goals) on the other hand we both work for US and YES U AND US work for only US and thr objects (we work for US objectives) and you work for (Pro Israel objective).



Well not going into if we did propaganda or not but thats what i am saying we have hatred for each other but so was between the countries that i listed in previous post...Thus looking at today we can't just predict tomorrow...Sane people on both sides know that only way forward is peace..Do you agree??? Once you achieve peace you would see what i am saying is not totally insane...



> Never happen!


It may but you got to look beyond the obvious...


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## Absar

Pakistan is Up for negotiations all the time. It was India who, without any concrete evidence, started railroading Pakistan when Mumbai carnage happened last year. India should stop blaming Pakistan for any catastrophe happens inside their nation. There are a number of separatist moments in India along with small terror outfits. India needs to control it instead of pointing fingers at Pakistan. Pakistan is all up for negotiations. But how long this fake negotiation packages will keep on coming? India should stop this political matinee. Kashmir issue along with the Indus Basin Treaty should be resolved before long.


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## XYON

Actually I would go 2-3 steps further.

GoP and GoI should not only open the border but also greet all citizens going back and forth with super welcome treatment; just to negate the adverse propaganda both governments generally force feed their populations use to avoid such visits. Case and point, Manmohan Singhs recent 'caution' to the Sikh Yatri's to not to go to Pakistan as they will be attacked. But most of the Yatri's refused and have received excellent treatment on arrival by GoP and even the elders have met with the Pakistan PM. So when these Sikhs go back; they will have more than hearsay to negate any adverse propaganda the government gives them about Pakistan.

We had a few years ago a few Indian Students visit Islamabad for a trip sponsored by a Rotary Club in Pakistan. Those student were literally bum-rushed to see Islamabad a most modern city and they also visited Lahore and Karachi where they were given excellent receptions. One of these students who were from South of India made a comment that their perception of Pakistan & its people had totally changed to what they were exposed to by their media. 

Enough Said!


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## scrumpy

Jawed Naqvi in a column in the Dawn argued that the Indian Government should start issuing Person of Indian Origin(PIO) cards to people from the countries in the neighbourhood.

Can petty minds create a South Asian confederation?

I think that it is a pretty interesting idea. Providing PIO cards to people who have lived in India before partition and their descendants will go a long way in healing the wounds opened up by partition. Maybe some day all travel between South Asian countries could be visa free.

By having strict background checks, I believe unsavoury elements who may have bad intentions can be kept out. 

I would like to hear your opinions on this idea.


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## Awesome

First we need to resolve issues of terrorism and only then can we trust each other with something like "open-borders". Don't want to make this open-season for terrorists.


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## SMC

XYON said:


> Actually I would go 2-3 steps further.
> 
> GoP and GoI should not only open the border but also greet all citizens going back and forth with super welcome treatment; just to negate the adverse propaganda both governments generally force feed their populations use to avoid such visits. Case and point, Manmohan Singhs recent 'caution' to the Sikh Yatri's to not to go to Pakistan as they will be attacked. But most of the Yatri's refused and have received excellent treatment on arrival by GoP and even the elders have met with the Pakistan PM. So when these Sikhs go back; they will have more than hearsay to negate any adverse propaganda the government gives them about Pakistan.
> 
> We had a few years ago a few Indian Students visit Islamabad for a trip sponsored by a Rotary Club in Pakistan. Those student were literally bum-rushed to see Islamabad a most modern city and they also visited Lahore and Karachi where they were given excellent receptions. One of these students who were from South of India made a comment that their perception of Pakistan & its people had totally changed to what they were exposed to by their media.
> 
> Enough Said!



Couldn't care less what these students think at the end of the day. Because their opinion doesn't really matter. The border need not be opened at least until india stops its terrorist activities and then further years until there is trust between both countries.


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## makikirkiri

I think there shouldn't be open pak-india border untill atleast 2 generations of peaceful indo-pak relations. As of now ,rather than solving the problem , it will serve as an excellent and consistent mechanism for terrorist activities on both sides &military flare ups.


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## Spring Onion

open borders hmmm what was MM Singh eating, drinking then when he made this statement seriously i was not expecting this from any Indian official so surprising.

rest well oh hmmm ehhh why not


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## makikirkiri

Open borders sounds more like akhand bharath to me. 
what do you say 'zaid hamid fans'(if any)?


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## vnomad

Sheesh.... Why the heck is everyone taking his words at face value?

He's not making a proposal to Pakistan as the PM of India. If tomorrow he were presented with such a plan he'd immediately nix it.

Its just a pleasant thought that he's voicing. The 'we must make the earth greener' and 'we must reach for the stars' kind.

BTW in the present world it isn't possible but in the future .. why not. If you think India-Pakistan relations are bad, read about the history of Europe. Britain, France, Germany, Austria etc have been at each others throats for centuries. Our troubles are pretty minor compared to their legacy. If they can do it....


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## Spring Onion

vnomad said:


> Sheesh.... Why the heck is everyone taking his words at face value?
> 
> He's not making a proposal to Pakistan as the PM of India. If tomorrow he were presented with such a plan he'd immediately nix it.



 ahh the great MM Singh is here disowned lolzzz oh come on Indians you guys are funny when it comes to taking his silliest statement against Pakistan as seriouse you are so happy when he has said something mild ummmm you are now even disrobing him of his rank as PM. buri baat ha 


Oye Nomad welcome back 

.



> BTW in the present world it isn't possible but in the future .. why not. If you think India-Pakistan relations are bad, read about the history of Europe. Britain, France, Germany, Austria etc have been at each others throats for centuries. Our troubles are pretty minor compared to their legacy. If they can do it....



Well solve Kashmir then we have no problem with you nor minor neither big.

Kashmir occupation by India is the only and biggest problem we have with India.


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## EjazR

*Just another example of how these militants target unarmed locals and civilians of J&K. May Allah's mercy be upon the departed souls and may their kid recover soon although he will be an orphan.*

The Hindu : News / National : Militants kill BSF jawan, his wife in Rajouri

A BSF jawan and his wife were killed by unidentified militants while their son was injured in Rajouri district of Jammu and Kashmir on Sunday.

Two masked militants barged into the house of BSF jawan Mohammad Arif at Khandi village in Kandi belt, about 215 km from here, at around 0400 hours today, official sources said here.

*The militants opened fire killing Arif and his wife Malika Khatoon besides injuring his 9-year-old son Abrar Ahmed, the sources said, adding the militants later escaped.*

Abrar has been rushed to district hospital at Rajouri for treatment, they said.

*Arif, who had surrendered as militant of Hizbul Mujahideen (HM) in 1999, was later recruited by the BSF.*

He was currently posted with the 126 BSF battalion in Punjab and had come home on leave, they said.


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## pagans

Barbaric act.


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## EvoluXon

every acti0n has equal reaction.


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## Spring Onion

Many of Hizb people double crossed so you can see the result. He became party to killing of Innocent Kashmiris so he should have been prepared for paying back

RIP


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## EjazR

@Jana he was stationed in Punjab BSF, and he *surrendered *in 99 and got married and started a new life as shown by the 9 year old son. 

The thing is if anyone tries to be part of any Indian institution thee militants kill these civilians and hence there is the need of so many para-military and armed forces in that area. Although in this case, they still couldn't save the couple.


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## Spring Onion

EjazR said:


> @Jana he was stationed in Punjab BSF, and he *surrendered *in 99 and got married and started a new life as shown by the 9 year old son.
> 
> The thing is if anyone tries to be part of any Indian institution thee militants kill these civilians and hence there is the need of so many para-military and armed forces in that area. Although in this case, they still couldn't save the couple.



Ejaz you can see it has nothing to with his being part of Indian organisation rather one can clearly see its an organisational rift and enmity between him and Hizb.

No such group let go the deserters specially when they become a tool in the hands of the rivals.

Many in 99 were bought by Indian govt with help of Mufti and many of them have became informers against Hizb so the revenge factor remains there.


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## EjazR

I just want you to compare this with TTP targeting security personnel, nazims, councilors and police officers in Pakistan. Hizb and UJC in Kashmir had 2 decades to practice the same tactics which are being used in Pakistan by TTP conglomerate today.


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## deckingraj

> open borders hmmm what was MM Singh eating, drinking then when he made this statement seriously i was not expecting this from any Indian official so surprising.
> 
> rest well oh hmmm ehhh why not






> an intentious big neighbour is now poking its neighbour in troubled situation.......






> Well solve Kashmir then we have no problem with you nor minor neither big.
> 
> Kashmir occupation by India is the only and biggest problem we have with India





> After a heart Surgery Mr PM needs a Brain Surgery





All you guys are well-educated but i am surprised none of you could appreciate the thought of Mr. Manmohan Singh...Someone who at this time where fanatics on both sides are just waiting for the moment to press the nuke button can come up with such a thought needs some admiration..Indeed Mr. Manmohan Singh is a true statesman...


Now may i ask everyone instead of thinking how will it happen just think what if it happen??? Do you see it as a good thing for South Asia or a bad thing?? I hope you guys are not worried that if India and Pak end up being friends what will happen for  discussion on this forum....





> After a heart Surgery Mr PM needs a Brain Surgery


Care to elaborate more on this ..why do think he has lost it...I hope you have heard enough about how wise this man is...if not than on the same forum we have a thread dedicated to this brilliant man...


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## vnomad

Jana said:


> ahh the great MM Singh is here disowned lolzzz oh come on Indians you guys are funny when it comes to taking his silliest statement against Pakistan as seriouse you are so happy when he has said something mild ummmm you are now even disrobing him of his rank as PM. buri baat ha



Well he was just expressing a pleasant sentiment, not a diplomatic proposal and his statement needs to be viewed in that light.



> Oye Nomad welcome back



Why thank you Jana.  I'm surprised you remember.





> Well solve Kashmir then we have no problem with you nor minor neither big.
> 
> Kashmir occupation by India is the only and biggest problem we have with India.



Yes well, neither India nor Pakistan are going to make any unilateral concessions. Gen. Musharraf's proposal was the most feasible plan I've read so far. We may be able to implement it sometime in the future hopefully.


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## Kaali

asq said:


> Pakistan has not done any thing wrong to India and that ids the truth and we the Pakistani are on high moral grounds.
> 
> India on the other hand.
> 
> Babri mosque.
> Kashmir.
> Juna Garh.
> Hyder abad
> East Pakistan
> Stealing water.
> Mass killing of Muslims in Gujrat


*

Babri mosque.* Is Babri Mosque in Pakistan so what it has to do with Pakistan or if every islamic entity is Pakistani then go for african countries first
*Kashmir.*Wanna know the name of agressor in Kashmir
*Juna Garh.* it was with the wishes of GOP 
*Hyder abad* Same as above
*East Pakistan* You screwed it up yourself and then attacked India and then come and blame us.
*Stealing water.* No point of claiming that as you have already lost the case
*Mass killing of Muslims in Gujrat* Again what it has to do with Pakistan.


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## Omar1984

*Indians ready to accept LoC as permanent border: Mishra​*
LAHORE: Indians are ready to accept the Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu and Kashmir as a permanent international border, Brajesh Mishra, Indias first national security adviser, said on Sunday.

In an interview with Zee News channel, Mishra said China, after the Kargil war in 1999, had clearly told Pakistan that the LoC should be respected, adding that China had maintained that the LoC issue should be resolved through bilateral dialogue.

The attitude of China has changed towards India and Beijing has taken a hostile stance against New Delhi due to the Indo-US civil nuclear pact, he said. In 1962, we fought a war with China, then with Pakistan, and I am afraid that we might get a bigger jolt than 1962 in the next five years, he added.

Mishra said that both Islamabad and Beijing were simultaneously striking a hostile posture and were trying to surround India. He said that China was trying to subdue India in South Asia, adding the Chinese had always tried to engage India in different problems with its neighbours so that New Delhi could never play an active role in South Asia.

I think we should equip our (Indian) forces as soon as possible, as we are not doing enough in this regard at the moment. We have two enemies, China and Pakistan, and if they work together we would have a bigger problem, he said. 

It is not that we should enhance our security apparatus to attack someone rather it is to defend ourselves, Mishra added. daily times monitor


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## Spring Onion

It realy gave alot of pain last year to see elderly people specially old women as old as in their 70s and 80s both men and women standing in an unending line outside India embassy in Islamabad to get visa to meet their relatives 

And i feel same must be the situation on other side. So for Heavensake instead of talking rubish sans actions about open borders PLease try to ease up things for these old people.

At this age they are not going to be spies for any side.


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## deckingraj

> It realy gave alot of pain last year to see elderly people specially old women as old as in their 70s and 80s both men and women standing in an unending line outside India embassy in Islamabad to get visa to meet their relatives
> 
> And i feel same must be the situation on other side. So for Heavensake instead of talking rubish sans actions about open borders PLease try to ease up things for these old people.
> 
> At this age they are not going to be spies for any side.




Very well said...Just consider how so called elites on this forum fight agaisnt each other even if there is logic in their statements or not what will you expect from a common man with less privileges...this path is not easy....not even a simple step of easing visa's..sad but true...

Now as far as open border is concerned just look above and see how much this idea has been trashed without even considering if it happen how much beneficial it would be for our society...but no..since it is coming from India lets oppose it...from indias perspective since it is what our PM said lets support it...

Dont know why people dont want to use their head and just heart when it comes to India/Pak


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## arihant

off course there is no other way to do anything else.


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## amunhotep

well this is a climbdown from india's stated position , it would be interesting to see whether india applies the same theory to it's border disputes with china


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## MZUBAIR

Its in dreams to consider LOc as parmanent border.

Its good India realises that Bejing and Isb striking, where India ever been so humble.

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## courageneverdies

Oh yes like India has this a unilateral issue. What of Pakistan? Will they accept it? I don't think so. LoC is not a permanent border and may never be.

LoC was established on the interference of UN and according to the same UN resolutions, Kashmir is a disputed land and hence till this dispute is resolved, which again by UN resolution should be through right of self-determination, this LoC is a temporary stop and may not be taken as Permanent Boundry.

KIT Over


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## TOPGUN

Crying at its best! never the word peace comes of the there mouths rather then the word ENEMY .... rather then stating that perhaps lets talk to Pakistan & China to work out the issue for all three countries they want to arm them selves more & more lol beats me ...


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## grey boy 2

To me, thats just an Indian trick to buy more time to arm herself.

Wait till India thought she is powerful enough, she will show her 

true colour.

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## eastwatch

South Asian Media Net

'Quiet diplomacy on Kashmir: Omar 
Tuesday, November 10,2009 

NEW DELHI: Indian-administered Kashmir (IAK) Chief Minister Omar Abdullah revealed that quiet diplomacy was being conducted to find an amicable settlement to Kashmir problem. Addressing a media conference in the winter capital of Jammu, he also welcomed the willingness of pro-freedom groups to participate in dialogue. This will be a welcome change in the larger interests of our people, he said. 

He said quiet diplomacy has proved fruitful in finding solutions to many political issues. This process has helped to settle the political issues of Palestine and Sri Lanka in the recent past, he added. The chief minister said diplomacy keeps the focus on settling issues without media hype and proves prudent in taking dialogue in the right direction. The fact is that you can move ahead in the dialogue process easily, without creating media hype, he explained.

To a question, Omar said though the situation in Pakistan was the countrys internal matter, yet the neighbours also felt concerned for the disturbing situation across the border. The instability in Pakistan affects the country (India), particularly Jammu and Kashmir, he added.


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## paritosh

seriously to everyone above...move over your hatred of India...it's an obsession for you guys...read every post that preceeds mine..and these were supposed to be replies to a peaceful move...
you think we are under pressure???
the position of the govt of India has never been stronger...Pakistan is having a civil war going on...USA is in Afghanistan...China is going through a period of transformation(into a true power) with the other world powers being hostile to it...
and we have all the tech we want...and a brilliant economy to fund a big war...
your vision is clouded by anger...even while replying to my post I suspect that you'd take digs at how not true the aforesaid is...

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## Ruag

courageneverdies said:


> Oh yes like India has this a unilateral issue. What of Pakistan? Will they accept it? I don't think so. LoC is not a permanent border and may never be.



So... what will Pakistan do? Attack India and push the LOC beyond the Chenab river?

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## courageneverdies

Ruag said:


> So... what will Pakistan do? Attack India and push the LOC beyond the Chenab river?



This ain't impossible. If India shows any kind of Hostility than we will be bound to do so. 

I am sure India does not has this courage to do a hositility against Pakistan rather any other country openly. They strike will remaining under the cover of a sarree.

KIT Out


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## Ruag

courageneverdies said:


> I am sure India does not has this courage to do a hositility against Pakistan rather any other country openly. They strike will remaining under the cover of a sarree.
> 
> KIT Out



Courage huh? You rant India for not being courageous enough while your country's leaders openly state that they "would use nuclear weapons if India and Pakistan go to war"? Have courage? Fight a conventional war rather than threatening your enemies with nukes.


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## courageneverdies

Ruag said:


> Courage huh? You rant India for not being courageous enough while your country's leaders openly state that they "would use nuclear weapons if India and Pakistan go to war"? Have courage? Fight a conventional war rather than threatening your enemies with nukes.



So what? In this era a conventional war is not possible to be fought between two nuclear capable countries. And by the way we have nukes for our defense and will use it when and if required.

I think we have foght conventional wars and India couldn't show much results therefore they decided to fight an unconventional one by supporting insurgency in Pakistan and other neigbouring countries. Is this what you call conventional warfare? 

And you talk of courage?

KIT Out

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## PlanetWarrior

Nice to watch the usual  of "my ego is bigger than your ego" or "my nuke is better than your nuke" between the Indian and Pakistani posters here  

The issue is about Kashmir. In a pipe dream when India and Pakistan undertake to remove their armies and their people from Kashmir then there maybe peace in Kashmir. Until then Kashmir is the pickle in the Pakistani and Indian sandwich

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## Iggy

To me its the only choice left to have a peaceful solution..It will not hurt the egos of both countries..Too much blood has spilled for this land..settle it once for all and move on ...


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## mltr

courageneverdies said:


> So what? In this era a conventional war is not possible to be fought between two nuclear capable countries. And by the way we have nukes for our defense and will use it when and if required.
> 
> I think we have foght conventional wars and India couldn't show much results therefore they decided to fight an unconventional one by supporting insurgency in Pakistan and other neighboring countries. Is this what you call conventional warfare?
> 
> *And you talk of courage?:*lol:
> 
> KIT Out


You are putting question..like you people are courageous person...
let me remind you whts happen in kargil... your great brave soldiers hides on the hills...and later when killed...your army refused to take bodie of your own regular soldier byy saying these are non state actors ....later admits...that these are from army...when RAW tapped the call of Musharraf...


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## Ruag

courageneverdies said:


> I think we have foght conventional wars and India couldn't show much results therefore they decided to fight an unconventional one by supporting insurgency in Pakistan and other neigbouring countries. Is this what you call conventional warfare?
> 
> And you talk of courage?
> 
> KIT Out



Without much results huh? 

Pakistan controls Kashmir Valley? No.
Pakistan controls Siachen? No.
Pakistan controls East Pakistan? No.

And supporting insurgency in Pakistan?!

Got proof? No.
We have been hearing about Pakistan's "evidence" supporting Indian involvement but it hasn't been produced yet. Why? Perhaps the Martians came and stole the "evidence". 

And you talk about insurgency... elements in Pakistan have been supporting terrorist activities in India for decades. Proof? Have plenty and even your government acknowledges them. And so does USA, UK, Afghanistan, Poland and many other countries. 

Only a coward will hide under the cover of nuclear weapons and fight a proxy war.

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## mltr

Ruag said:


> Without much results huh?
> 
> Pakistan controls Kashmir Valley? No.
> Pakistan controls Siachen? No.
> Pakistan controls East Pakistan? No.
> 
> And supporting insurgency in Pakistan?!
> 
> Got proof? No.
> We have been hearing about Pakistan's "evidence" supporting Indian involvement but it hasn't been produced yet. Why? Perhaps the Martians came and stole the "evidence".
> 
> And you talk about insurgency... elements in Pakistan have been supporting terrorist activities in India for decades. Proof? Have plenty and even your government acknowledges them. And so does USA, UK, Afghanistan, Poland and many other countries.
> 
> Only a coward will hide under the cover of nuclear weapons and fight a proxy war.



lol.....


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## zagahaga

to tell you the truth india self masterbates dreaming to become a SUPA POWER. it is just weird they automatically think that they can call the shots . who do they think think they are ? very sad.


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## dabong1

The indians wanted the LOC as the permanent border from day one.....nothing new in the statement.

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## Kaali

zagahaga said:


> to tell you the truth india self masterbates dreaming to become a SUPA POWER. it is just weird they automatically think that they can call the shots . who do they think think they are ? very sad.



we are the one

who hold maximum of Kashmir after60 years
we are the one who helped the creation of Bangladesh and Pakistan was not able to do anything
we are the one who aliniated Pakistan for its policy of terrorism.

I dont know about other countries but the way things are moving on Pakistan forget India... one day somalia will become a super power for Pakistan....

And for some knowledge Nuclear Bombs and Missiles do not stop from being tormented.


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## PostColonial

Well, that's the best offer. Take it or leave it Pakistan, but I would suggest that you take it while you still can.


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## navtrek

amunhotep said:


> well this is a climbdown from india's stated position , it would be interesting to see whether india applies the same theory to it's border disputes with china



What theory are u talking abt ? And by the way is Pakistan ready to recognize the LAC ?


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## ice_man

Kaali said:


> we are the one
> 
> who hold maximum of Kashmir after60 years
> we are the one who helped the creation of Bangladesh and Pakistan was not able to do anything
> we are the one who aliniated Pakistan for its policy of terrorism.
> 
> I dont know about other countries but the way things are moving on Pakistan forget India... one day somalia will become a super power for Pakistan....
> 
> And for some knowledge Nuclear Bombs and Missiles do not stop from being tormented.



FUNNNNY BOY!!!! read the link i am gonna give you behind all the gloss india has 60% poverty! and thank you for accepting that you got involved in our civil war & don't worry we will do the same! as for alienation of pakistan??? how have you done that so? 

A Better India, A Better World-N.R. Narayana Murthy-Penguin Books India

 seriously HOW HAVE YOU SURVIVED ON THIS FORUM SO FAR MAN!


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## ice_man

sensenreason said:


> and Pakistan masturbates by imagining a 'Jammu and Kashmir' accession to Pakistan or a breakup of India into multiple parts or India will a 1000 cuts or conducting 100 more 26/11's or matching India in everything.....and so on and on...
> 
> Pakistan does live in 'Neverland'



seriously the terminology you use makes me really wonder what your real age is!!!! wonder if you even hit puberty yet!!!!


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## Hulk

For those who think Nukes can be used you are living in dream. They can only be used when you are in danger of loosing major city. Since India does not want to attack Pakistan this situation will not arise. The nukes we have are high maintenence toys. I can bet for next 100 years it will not be used. Nukes are defensive weapons not offensive, get that clear. The think tank will confirm this.


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## ice_man

look this is a blatant drama by india!!!! i say give the whole of kashmir independence & deploy international peace force to defend its border from pakistan & from india!!!!!!

MODS PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD!!!!

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## sensenreason

ice_man said:


> seriously the terminology you use makes me really wonder what your real age is!!!! wonder if you even hit puberty yet!!!!



 Im 35. Please ask Zagahaga his age. I only commented on his comment.


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## iamunique

ice_man said:


> i say give the whole of kashmir independence & deploy international peace force to defend its border from pakistan & from india!!!!!!



A fairly good suggestion.


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## Kavin

ice_man said:


> i say give the whole of kashmir independence & deploy international peace force to defend its border from pakistan & from india!!!!!!



What about Indian & Pakistani combined force rather than international peace force?


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## Ratus Ratus

ice_man said:


> look this is a blatant drama by india!!!! i say give the whole of kashmir independence & deploy international peace force to defend its border from pakistan & from india!!!!!!
> 
> MODS PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD!!!!



2 smart comments..

But no one will listen, pity.


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## Ratus Ratus

Kavin said:


> What about Indian & Pakistani combined force rather than international peace force?



Why, simple it is called vested interests. It will just cause further problems as Pakistan and India play off each other for the so called upper hand.


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## Kavin

Ratus Ratus said:


> Why, simple it is called vested interests. It will just cause further problems as Pakistan and India play off each other for the so called upper hand.



No. Kashmir is just an ego problem for both nations. If ego is satisfied (It'll be win-win situation), India and Pakistan will come closer and there will be no VESTED INTERESTS. (Am I dreaming...?)


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## ice_man

Kavin said:


> No. Kashmir is just an ego problem for both nations. If ego is satisfied (It'll be win-win situation), India and Pakistan will come closer and there will be no VESTED INTERESTS. (Am I dreaming...?)



100s of years of despotism & british rule has made south asia a place where self egos are never satisfied my friend!!! nothing is enough everyone wants the "enemy" to submit & beg on their knees! and same goes for the two nations of india & pakistan.


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## eastwatch

I think, making the LoC an international border is not very attractive proposal. I am pessimistic about this new(?) Indian overture. This offer probably will not satisfy Pakistan, it is already holding about 35% of Kashmir since 1948, and has since been demanding the remaining areas. This is why Pakistan went to wars in the past. 

I think, India's offer is too late and too small. It may not change the present status quo.


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## PostColonial

Ratus Ratus said:


> 2 smart comments..
> 
> But no one will listen, pity.



I think you meant 2*dumb *comments. Perhaps you should edit your post.


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## arya

courageneverdies said:


> This ain't impossible. If India shows any kind of Hostility than we will be bound to do so.
> 
> *I am sure India does not has this courage to do a hositility against Pakistan rather any other country openly. They strike will remaining under the cover of a sarree.*
> 
> KIT Out



i think burkha is much better
from me:
I am sure *Pakistan* does not has this courage to do a hositility against *HINDUSTAN* openly. They strike will remaining under the cover of a BURKHA


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## pakdefender

Kashmir Banay Ga Pakistan!


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## Spring Onion

Who the hell are Indians to claim Kashmiri land and accept or reject LoC.

it LoC and its not an international border. Indian establishment is composed of clever bnayas trying to bluff the world by anotther BS proposal.

Get out of Kashmir its not your land. You are an occupying brutal country killing Kashmiris in Kashmir.

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## deckingraj

> Who the hell are Indians to claim Kashmiri land and accept or reject LoC.


Your neighboutring country with whom you have dispute...



> it LoC and its not an international border. Indian establishment is composed of clever bnayas trying to bluff the world by anotther BS proposal.


Such racial comments from a senior member who had very good thoughts about securalism..i must be hallucinating... 


> Get out of Kashmir its not your land. You are an occupying brutal country killing Kashmiris in Kashmir.


Pity no one will listen to you...becuase brutal people don't listen..Why don't you do one thing please ask the sane people on your side to come and get Kashmir from India and give relief to your fellow muslims...Something which you are doing from past 62 years...because and only because of you they are still alive under such a brutal regime...

Now if me saying all that makes you feel good then please come back to senses and talk like a senior member and say why you don't think its not a good proposal or else please let me know and i can go on and on till you feel comfortable...


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## deckingraj

> I think, making the LoC an international border is not very attractive proposal. I am pessimistic about this new(?) Indian overture. This offer probably will not satisfy Pakistan, it is already holding about 35&#37; of Kashmir since 1948, and has since been demanding the remaining areas. This is why Pakistan went to wars in the past.



Yes...thats why war's were fought with no results...We are still there where we were...which implies you got to shift your position for a viable solution acceptable to all the three sides...India..Pakistan...Kashmiris...To me move by GOI is a good one..something on the lines of what we closed during Musharraf regime..




> I think, India's offer is too late and too small. It may not change the present status quo.



I am not sure if its too late because these thoughts are prevailing at least in India from quite sometime..However even if its a little late what else you think can be a viable option other than remain where you are...give more powers to kashmiri's

i.e. Make LOC a soft border and more powers to Kashmiris...


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## arya

pakdefender said:


> Kashmir Banay Ga Pakistan!



O REALLY?
OR 
........... BANEGA PAKISTAN


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## deepakthirdreich

Jana said:


> Who the hell are Indians to claim Kashmiri land and accept or reject LoC.
> 
> it LoC and its not an international border. Indian establishment is composed of clever bnayas trying to bluff the world by anotther BS proposal.
> 
> Get out of Kashmir its not your land. You are an occupying brutal country killing Kashmiris in Kashmir.



Who the hell are PAKIS to claim Kashmiri land.

it LoC and its not an international border. **** establishment is composed of STUPID MULLAS trying to bluff the world by REJECTING anotther GREAT proposal.

Get out of Kashmir its not your land. You are an occupying brutal country killing Kashmiris in Kashmir.
JUST FOR U JANA.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Its not a issue of land , ego or religion its *Kashmir glaciers*, which are the source of water for the Indus and the Jhelum on which Pakistan lives.


East and West Punjab feed more then 1 billion people of Subcontinent and their main source of water is from Kashmir glaciers. 

If there is no Water in Indus "Sind and Karachi" will dry up and Seawater will come up the stream in River Indus.


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## zagahaga

Kaali said:


> we are the one
> 
> who hold maximum of Kashmir after60 years
> we are the one who helped the creation of Bangladesh and Pakistan was not able to do anything
> we are the one who aliniated Pakistan for its policy of terrorism.
> 
> I dont know about other countries but the way things are moving on Pakistan forget India... one day somalia will become a super power for Pakistan....
> 
> And for some knowledge Nuclear Bombs and Missiles do not stop from being tormented.



cheap shot on kashmir lol..... we own it alright ..... and your display is scary


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## zagahaga

sensenreason said:


> Im 35. Please ask Zagahaga his age. I only commented on his comment.



my age? 24 and ya i do get dirty when all of you indians think you are soooo strong and tuff . bus tum sub ne chureya pani hai


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## Kaali

pakdefender said:


> Kashmir Banay Ga Pakistan!



woh to 60 saal se ban raha hai... abhi tak ban nahi paaya.


Kashmir banega Pakistan aur ban gaya state of Hindustan...


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## Omar1984

*German envoy remarks on Kashmir welcomed ​*
LONDON, Nov 12 (APP)-The UK-based Justice Foundation Kashmir Centre has welcomed the statement of the German Ambassador to Pakistan Michael Koch who had stated that if the Berlin Wall can fall, then Kashmir conundrum can also be addressed.

The Centre Director Prof.Nazir Ahmed Shawl in a statement also welcomed the envoys remarks that Germany would support efforts of both countries to move towards resolution of this issue while pleading for Indo-Pak engagement to resolve their outstanding disputes. 

Shawl believed that the international community is gradually adapting the realistic stance of the south East Asian realities. It is high time that the peaceful resolution of Kashmir is set in motion by addressing the Kashmiri aspiration to strengthen the peace and stability in the region, he said.

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## Atheist

Wohhh there is no wall - but armies guarding it on both sides

Dont take the literal sense of it - hope you get it


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## PlanetWarrior

With the utmost of respect I suggest that Pakistan actually concentrates on removing the vermin from within Pakistan and let go of the Kashmir issue for awhile. It amazes me that whilst Pakistan is facing a severe internal test of the nation, it still looks at Kashmir. This is not to say that the issue of Kashmir must lie dead. I still stand by my assertion that the future of Kashmir must be decided by the Kashmiris. I was amazed to note that whilst universities are being bombed in Pakistan and suicide bombers are going crazy in her cities and the PDF loses soldiers to the scourge of the Taliban regularly , some Pakistani here decided to reopen a thread relating to the death of some people in Kashmir a few years ago 

Now why bother about the granny cottage when the house is on fire ?


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## Screaming Skull

*Stapled visas by China not valid for travel: MEA​*
Thursday, November 12, 2009

New Delhi: *In a rebuff to China, India today made it clear that any paper visa "stapled" to the passport in separate sheets rather than pasted will be treated as invalid for travel out of the country.

"It has come to the attention of the government that the Chinese Embassy here and its Consulates in Mumbai and Kolkata are issuing visas on a separate piece of paper stapled to the passport (rather than "pasted" as is the usual practice), to certain categories of Indian nationals on the basis of their domicile, ethnicity and/or place of issue of the passport.

"Such paper visas stapled to the passport are not considered valid for travel out of the country," ministry of external affairs said in a statement here.*

The snub comes in the wake of the reports that some Kashmiri students and businessmen were given visa by the Chinese embassy on a separate piece of paper, stapled to the passport. Immigration officials at the airport denied permission to such travellers to fly out.

The ministry of external affairs also asked its citizens to ascertain from the Chinese embassy or Consulate whether the visa issued to them will be affixed to the passport or will be in the nature of a stapled paper visa to avoid any inconvenience or financial loss.*"All Indian citizens intending to travel to the People's Republic of China are advised that before making any travel arrangements they should first ascertain from the Chinese Embassy or Consulate, as the case may be, whether the visa being issued to them will be affixed to the passport or will be in the nature of a stapled paper visa, so that they are not inconvenienced or put to any financial loss later on this count," the ministry said.*

Chinese embassy officials here have been maintaining that stapling of the visas on a separate piece of paper was a "usual practice" for last few years and the problem was from the side of Indian immigration officials at the airport.

The Chinese Embassy's practice of stamping visas to some Kashmiris on a separate sheet of paper instead of passports was seen as a new front in needling it, evoking a strong reaction from India.

*The visas were stamped on separate papers as was the practice for those hailing from Arunachal Pradesh.*

The action with regard to Kashmiri travellers is seen as an attempt by China to question the status of Jammu and Kashmir as part of India.

Upset over the development, India had said, *"it is our considered view and position that there should be no discrimination against visa applicants of Indian nationality on the grounds of domicile or ethnicity."*

Stapled visas by China not valid for travel: MEA - dnaindia.com

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## RobbieS

Talk about provoking tensions!


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## Developereo

PlanetWarrior said:


> With the utmost of respect I suggest that Pakistan actually concentrates on removing the vermin from within Pakistan and let go of the Kashmir issue for awhile. It amazes me that whilst Pakistan is facing a severe internal test of the nation, it still looks at Kashmir. This is not to say that the issue of Kashmir must lie dead. I still stand by my assertion that the future of Kashmir must be decided by the Kashmiris. I was amazed to note that whilst universities are being bombed in Pakistan and suicide bombers are going crazy in her cities and the PDF loses soldiers to the scourge of the Taliban regularly , some Pakistani here decided to reopen a thread relating to the death of some people in Kashmir a few years ago
> 
> Now why bother about the granny cottage when the house is on fire ?



Most people can focus on more than one issue at a time.

Your post is utterly irrelevant to the topic at hand.

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## PlanetWarrior

Developereo said:


> Most people can focus on more than one issue at a time.
> 
> Your post is utterly irrelevant to the topic at hand.



Totally relevant. Read my question to see the relevance


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## PlanetWarrior

Correct and admirable action from Indian side. If you don't issue visas properly then we don't send our citizens to your country

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## Developereo

PlanetWarrior said:


> Totally relevant. Read my question to see the relevance



I read your post.
You are implying that Pakistan should forget Kashmir and focus on other matters.

My point is that we can do both. There is no contradiction, and Pakistan will continue to uphold the Kashmir issue, as much as India may want to bury it.

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## PlanetWarrior

@ Developereo 
Well lets hope that the politicians are insync with your views. My suggestion is my opinion though.


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## bigmoneymaker

good!!! i now do see you have your backbone to stand up to a stronger foreign power! then why dont you stand up to be against your former coloner and currently uncle sam??? we former british colony loved to see rising india to step out to protect the dignity of our developing countries.then we will naturally recognize your big brother status in commonwealth organization by then...dont you indians wish to outmatch the little britain conquering the comparatively huge india instead of turning the cannon towards the valuable ally for the same cause???


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## Srinivas

its is a good answer from Indian govt.


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## Khajur

Ultimately its China who is responsible for this*...i think china doesnt want ppl from kashmir to visit china thats why its engaging in such stupid shenanigans.*


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## Spring Onion

PlanetWarrior said:


> Correct and admirable action from Indian side. If you don't issue visas properly then we don't send our citizens to your country



Your citizens?? But Kashmiris are not Indians.

So your statement 200% wrong.


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## Screaming Skull

I somehow foresaw this when I first heard that PRC was issuing stapled visas for Kashmiri residents a few days back. If this bizarre procedure of issuing visas on separate sheets of paper was meant to indicate PRCs position on the status of the Indian state of Jammu & Kashmir, then they are now left with only two choices- either prohibit Kashmiris from visiting their country or follow the usual procedure of pasting visas on the Passports, thereby acknowledging that J&K is an integral part of the Union of India and Kashmiris are Indians! A typical catch 22 situation, entirely a creation of PRC itself. 

Also, if issuing visas on separate sheets of papers indicates the disputed nature of a territory from PRCs pov, then they must remember that there are over a hundred other countries in the world which follow the regular procedure of pasting the visas on passports of Kashmiri residents and residents of AP. So, what does that mean to the PRC?

Heads I win, tails you loose!


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## pmukherjee

bigmoneymaker said:


> good!!! i now do see you have your backbone to stand up to a stronger foreign power! then why dont you stand up to be against your former coloner and currently uncle sam??? we former british colony loved to see rising india to step out to protect the dignity of our developing countries.then we will naturally recognize your big brother status in commonwealth organization by then...dont you indians wish to outmatch the little britain conquering the comparatively huge india instead of turning the cannon towards *the valuable ally for the same cause*???



Pardon my asking buddy but who are you talking of here?


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## mrwarrior006

> originally posted by jana
> Your citizens?? But Kashmiris are not Indians.
> 
> So your statement 200&#37; wrong.



they are indians


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## New Shivaji

Jana said:


> Your citizens?? But Kashmiris are not Indians.
> 
> So your statement 200% wrong.



What's 200% - I always thought 100% is max , may be I was taught wrongly in my school.

J&K is part of India and will allways be, what ever pakistani's may say.

Action taken by Govt. of India is correct.

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## pmukherjee

Jana said:


> Your citizens?? But Kashmiris are not Indians.
> 
> So your statement 200% wrong.



Yeah I know, they have Pakistani passports. Right?


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## Developereo

I am not quite sure what China's motive is for this and the border incursions.

Are they gently tapping India on the shoulder to remind them who is boss in the region and not to get carried away with all the Western attention?


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## mrwarrior006

> originally posted by* developero*
> I am not quite sure what China's motive is for this and the border incursions.
> 
> Are they gently tapping India on the shoulder to remind them who is boss in the region and not to get carried away with all the Western attention?



tats wy india is playing the dalai lama card saying bossgri nahi chalegi

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## mrwarrior006

> originally posted by* developero*
> I am not quite sure what China's motive is for this and the border incursions.
> 
> Are they gently tapping India on the shoulder to remind them who is boss in the region and not to get carried away with all the Western attention?



tats wy india is playing the dalai lama card saying bossgri nahi chalegi


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## IBRIS

*India declares Chinese stapled visas invalid*

NEW DELHI: India on Thursday declared as "invalid" the standalone paper visas given by the Chinese embassy and consulates for Indians from Jammu and 
Kashmir and Arunachal Pradesh, and issued a travel advisory asking those going to China to ensure their visas are pasted on their passports.

*VIDEO:* India declares Chinese stapled visa policy invalid-News-Videos-The Times of India

"Such paper visas stapled to the passport are not considered valid for travel out of the country," the external affairs ministry said here in an "important travel advisory on Chinese visas".


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## Trisonics

Developereo said:


> I am not quite sure what China's motive is for this and the border incursions.
> 
> Are they gently tapping India on the shoulder to remind them who is boss in the region and not to get carried away with all the Western attention?



good point..I'm not sure either

Are they gently suggesting to the world that India is not what it used to be in 1962? We can't do anything else but we can do this to prove our Super Power Status?


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## PostColonial

About time.


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## Hulk

Jana said:


> Your citizens?? But Kashmiris are not Indians.
> 
> So your statement 200% wrong.



If someone is asking for Visa he might be having Indian passport. If he has an Indian passport that means he is not disputing status of his country. Now in that case India is right.

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## Hulk

bigmoneymaker said:


> good!!! i now do see you have your backbone to stand up to a stronger foreign power! then why dont you stand up to be against your former coloner and currently uncle sam??? we former british colony loved to see rising india to step out to protect the dignity of our developing countries.then we will naturally recognize your big brother status in commonwealth organization by then...dont you indians wish to outmatch the little britain conquering the comparatively huge india instead of turning the cannon towards the valuable ally for the same cause???



We will do what we feel necessary for us to do. We do not want anyone's advise on what we should be doing. I have noticed you only post anti Indian, is it your hobby?


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## lockh33d

HAhaha, I think this is another one of those "Tests" China is playing on India to see how far the GOI can tolerate tensions. This subtle but effective experiment will allow China in the future to better handle the crisis in its own terms, if you get what I mean.


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## grey boy 2

lockh33d said:


> HAhaha, I think this is another one of those "Tests" China is playing on India to see how far the GOI can tolerate tensions. This subtle but effective experiment will allow China in the future to better handle the crisis in its own terms, if you get what I mean.



True, brother, India was getting failed grades to China's tests so far. 

Even their leadership admitted when it come to *push* and then 

*shove*, they do not have the guts to challenge China period.

But once a while GOI do need some save face talks to please her 

people.


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## Ruag

Jana said:


> Your citizens?? But Kashmiris are not Indians.
> 
> So your statement 200% wrong.



Gosh Jana.. go get a life rather than igniting a flame war on every thread.

To Indian members, ignore and stick to the topic.

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## grey boy 2

Ruag said:


> Gosh Jana.. go get a life rather than igniting a flame war on every thread.
> 
> To Indian members, ignore and stick to the topic.




Yeah right, anybody speak up against Indians are flaming, while its

freedom of speech for Indians to criticize others.

Some damn stupid Indians logic !!

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## Balance

grey boy 2 said:


> Yeah right, anybody speak up against Indians are flaming, while its
> 
> freedom of speech for Indians to criticize others.
> 
> Some damn stupid Indians logic !!



This forum surely speaks against Indians in almost every thread. But one of the few expectations is the speaking should be connected with the topic being discussed.

There are proper threads to make these statements.

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## brahmastra

Balance said:


> This forum surely speaks against Indians in almost every thread. But one of the few expectations is the speaking should be connected with the topic being discussed.
> 
> There are proper threads to make these statements.



kisko samja raheho Maharaj!

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## StingRoy

This should have been done way back when the first story came out of Chinese embassy giving paper visas to Indian citizens. 
One thing to wonder is that how does the VO decide who gets a "piece of paper" or who gets a stamped visa? If the passport has an Indian address, doesn't it provide proof of origin? It is not like they are refugees or someone from outside asking for a Chinese visa. Isn't it... ;-)

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## lockh33d

brahmastra said:


> kisko samja raheho Maharaj!



This isn't Indian based, it would be very much appreciated if you and your mates speak in English in this international community. Thank you very much!

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## arihant

I read in the local newspaper that if China didn't stop such activity that India will issue same type of visas to tibetians and will further block sending Kashmiris and AP people to China.


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## grey boy 2

*China Continues to Issue Paper Kashmiri Visas*

*Nov. 4  China is continuing to issue paper visas to Kashmiri Indians holding Indian passports, demonstrating that they will continue to not recognize Indian sovereignty over the region.*

Noted Indian scientist Shakil Romshoo was taken off a China Southern flight yesterday after boarding with a China issued paper visa, against Indian regulations. Romshoo also carried an Indian passport which did not contain a stamped China visa. Romshoo was scheduled to attend and collect an award at the 13th World Lake conference in Wuhan when Indian immigration officials removed him from the plane. 
*China is currently disputing the citizenship of Kashmiris holding Indian passports, and currently issues visas on a separate piece of paper that India does not accept. However, Chinese officials say these visas are correct and valid.*

*The incident is a continuation of the current border problems that China appears to be provoking to push India to deal with the Tibetan government-in-exile, which operates from Dharamsala in Indian territory. India permits the Tibetan government-in-exile and exiled Tibetans to receive a Green Book, which demonstrates their identity as an exiled Tibetan. Upon provision of this document, India also allows holders to travel on Indian raised international travel documentation, which China regards as infringing its sovereignty over Tibetans as Chinese nationals.*

China Continues to Issue Paper Kashmiri Visas | 2point6billion.com - Foreign Direct Investment in Asia


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## brahmastra

arihant said:


> I read in the local newspaper that if China didn't stop such activity that India will issue same type of visas to tibetians and will further block sending Kashmiris and AP people to China.



We can issue same type of visas to tibetians but it will be seen as only 'tit for tat' but we can't block kashmiris or AP people to china as they are equal Indian as any Gujarati,Punjabi, Tamil or Bengali.


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## toxic_pus

Jana said:


> Your citizens?? But Kashmiris are not Indians.
> 
> So your statement 200% wrong.


Are residents of 'Azad' Kashmir issued separate passport or they travel under Pakistani passport?

Just curious.


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## arihant

toxic_pus said:


> Are residents of 'Azad' Kashmir issued separate passport or they travel under Pakistani passport?
> 
> Just curious.



While UN resolution doesn't allow Kashmiri to get Freedom, Pakistan is misleading them about independence. It can prove with that, China doesn't issue same visas to Pakistan.


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## mahabharath

grey boy 2 said:


> Yeah right, anybody speak up against Indians are flaming, while its
> 
> freedom of speech for Indians to criticize others.
> 
> Some damn stupid Indians logic !!



see..who is talking..a person belong to a country which is bound to fail big time in very near future..which people live in everyday strict censor guidelines..is talking about the country which is open to freedom of every beloved citizen..who is proud of their own citizenship..unlike the people who live in cage and under severe censorship..

god..have you heard about a country called USSR


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## grey boy 2

mahabharath said:


> see..who is talking..a person belong to a country which is bound to fail big time in very near future..which people live in everyday strict censor guidelines..is talking about the country which is open to freedom of every beloved citizen..who is proud of their own citizenship..unlike the people who live in cage and under severe censorship..
> 
> god..have you heard about a country called USSR



I have only heard of a country called India with some hidden dark

secrets.Asia Sentinel - Hidden Darkness: Child Sexual Abuse in India

What will be the future of a country with such problem end up ?


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## mahabharath

grey boy 2 said:


> I have only heard of a country called India with some hidden dark
> 
> secrets.Asia Sentinel - Hidden Darkness: Child Sexual Abuse in India
> 
> What will be the future of a country with such problem end up ?



i haven't heard anything about your counry..how do you take about it  ..doesn't it mean that..you are hiding everything that is happening in your counry?  i pity you mr.ussr...err..mr.greyboy..

in a country that has billion people..you should expect to find every type of people... by providing one link what are you going to prove?  are you trying to say that..a censored country people are a lot better because they don't tell anything because they are censored..and caged  oh boy!!!!


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## afriend

bigmoneymaker said:


> good!!! i now do see you have your backbone to stand up to a stronger foreign power! then why dont you stand up to be against your former coloner and currently uncle sam??? we former british colony loved to see rising india to step out to protect the dignity of our developing countries.then we will naturally recognize your big brother status in commonwealth organization by then...dont you indians wish to outmatch the little britain conquering the comparatively huge india instead of turning the cannon towards the valuable ally for the same cause???



Well, India stands firm on its policy, and have taken a stand against Uncle sam and the other nations when it comes to standing up for what we believe in. NPT, the support to mauritius are all such examples. 

And we don't hate amercians for the heck of it like many mullahs in pakistan and afghanistan. 


> Your citizens?? But Kashmiris are not Indians.
> 
> So your statement 200% wrong



Well you may say that.. but india considers it as its part. I guess so there is nothing you and i can do about it.


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## afriend

grey boy 2 said:


> I have only heard of a country called India with some hidden dark
> 
> secrets.Asia Sentinel - Hidden Darkness: Child Sexual Abuse in India
> 
> What will be the future of a country with such problem end up ?



The question is where do you geninunely want are country to endup.. buddy boy..!!!


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## Developereo

toxic_pus said:


> Are residents of 'Azad' Kashmir issued separate passport or they travel under Pakistani passport?
> 
> Just curious.



Azad Kashmir is part of Pakistan and their residents are accepted as Pakistanis by every country, including China and India.

India or China do not issue separate visas to Pakistanis of Kashmiri origin.


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## Kavin

Developereo said:


> Azad Kashmir is part of Pakistan.


I thought it's a disputed area 



Developereo said:


> and their residents are accepted as Pakistanis by every country, including China and India.
> 
> India or China do not issue separate visas to Pakistanis of Kashmiri origin.


Residents of Indian Kashmir are also accepted as Indians by every country, except China. (Does Pakistan issue stapled visa to people of Indian Kashmir?)


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## Developereo

Kavin said:


> Residents of Indian Kashmir are also accepted as Indians by every country, *except China*



Congratulations!

You finally caught up with the point of this thread.

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## Omar1984

*IHK traders slam FICCI for advocating attacks on Pakistan ​*
NEW DELHI: Kashmiri traders have condemned a report published by the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry (FICCI) that proposed that India should inflict economic pain on Pakistan. The 118-page (FICCI) report also called for choking water resources, covert retaliation and surgical strikes against Islamabad in order to address terrorism in India. The Kashmir Chamber of Commerce and Industry (KCCI) and other trade bodies in Srinagar met in an emergency meeting on Thursday and called the report irresponsible and immature. The KCCI said the development was serious. The apex business chamber should have devoted time to formulating policies for the economic prosperity of the country. It has unfortunately indulged in political gimmicks, and that too with gruesome mindset against a neighbouring country, the KCCI members said in a statement. Federation of Chambers of Industry in Kashmir (FCIK) President Shakil Qalander said at a time when the world needed peace, the FICCI was advocating strategies that could clearly lead to war. The KCCI asked world economic bodies to take note of the FICCIs war rhetoric and support the quest for peace and stability in the region by helping settle the Kashmir dispute. The suggestion of launching a military offensive is not new and has been tried on four occasions previously. It has only ended in a typical cycle of war breeding war, the statement added. iftikhar gilani


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## Hulk

Who cares what these Kashmiri thinks.


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## Omar1984

indianrabbit said:


> Who cares what these Kashmiri thinks.



We Pakistanis care much more about what Kashmiris say than what you indians have to say.

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## Spitfighter

There's no need to launch surgical strikes or anything of that sort. India should wreak havoc on Pakistan's agrarian economy and engage in targeted assassinations if the terrorist attacks continue. Reduce water supply during times of harvest, and out bid them economically on all fronts. India should give Pakistan a good reason to keep a tight lid on the ISI and their pets.


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## Materialistic

> Who cares what these Kashmiri thinks



Thats why we call indian activities in kashmir as acts of terrorism.

@ spitfighter 
i think u should keep a tight lid on ur media and ur Raw, which was involved in bangladesh matter, and later u stole industries from dhaka after your so called help to bangladesh for fighting against Pakistan. And u should really know about samjhota express and other bombing cases where ur Hippocratic government started accusing Pakistan proir to any investigations and later it came out Pakistan was not involved in all this. But yeah who cares what happend later, because naturally people are concerned more when some incident happens rather than coming to know months later that all those accusations were just a lie. So this is all just a propaganda to change the image of Pakistan worldwide. And more than that it was weakness of ur intelligence agencies who failed and also a fault of ur armed forces who took three days to fight some immature kids playing with guns.

I dont have the links at this moment to prove my words as I am busy with some of my study courses, u can find out urself or i would request some Pakistani brother to find and provide sources about Indian explosives stuff, literature and specially their hand grenades with hindi written on them seized by our forces. 

Apart from that it was also in news that terrorist and extremist groups in India are providing manpower supply in Pakistan to terrorist groups. 
In the end ill say the same thing ill try bringing sources to satify some fanatics, otherwise these things are already running in the media.


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## EjazR

indianrabbit said:


> Who cares what these Kashmiri thinks.



Being Indian citizens and part of the Indian union these kashmiris have every right to express their opinion. The local population have been the worst affected due to the terrorist activities emanating from Pakistan and their view is as much if not more important being that they are on the front lines Its surprising that this trade body instead of addressing concerns in their purview like trade, poverty alleviation and business they have to go out of their way to talk about this. Its the job of security related agencies and organizations to discuss this. 
*
@Materialistic*
Just to remind you the GoI can't "control" the media or what different bodies say. This is called freedom of expression and while their statements can be critiqued and repudiated as being ignorant, GoI can't keep a "lid" on it. That freedom of expression for you. India has valid reasons for keeping up pressure on Pakistan as long as the UJC based in muzaffarabad continues to launch its so called "jihad" and kills civilians, women and children.

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## mltr

Omar1984 said:


> We Pakistanis care much more about what Kashmiris say than what you indians have to say.



And we care what the baluchi thinks


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## PAFAce

Spitfighter said:


> There's no need to launch surgical strikes or anything of that sort. India should wreak havoc on Pakistan's agrarian economy and engage in targeted assassinations if the terrorist attacks continue. Reduce water supply during times of harvest, and out bid them economically on all fronts. India should give Pakistan a good reason to keep a tight lid on the ISI and their pets.


What's stopping you there, Mr. India?

India is not Israel, and Pakistan is no Palestine. If you were foolish enough to declare economic war on us, you'd better prepare for nuclear showers too, brother.

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## EjazR

Film festival, cricket put Kashmir on peace pitch - dnaindia.com

Srinagar: There are at least two signs this week that peace is returning to Kashmir. An upcoming film festival and an ongoing a cricket match, is no doubt, lifting up the spirits of a people used to living under the shadow of guns, militants, soldiers and bloodshed.

The International Film Festival of Kashmir, a three-day event, that kicks off on Thursday, will showcase 15 international documentary films by renowned filmmakers across the globe. Jointly organised by the experimental moving images and theatre association (XMITA) and the J&K academy of art, culture and languages, the festival is the third in a series in the violence-torn valley.

Finding place in it will be Khayal Darpan, a film exploring the development of classical music in Pakistan, and Bronx Princess, a film on an American-born Muslim girl in search of her identity. The package has been chosen to highlight subjects and themes that have been put on the backburner in the valley.

"Our aim is to promote filmmaking and performing arts in the valley. There's very little focus on classical theatre in Kashmir. We want to revive it and this film festival is the best way to do it," said Ali Emran Kureshi, co-coordinator of the festival, whose films Sufism and Know Me will be shown.

Not just films, cricket too is doing its bit to boost Kashmir's image. The Haryana cricket team has lifted up the spirits of cricket lovers by playing a Ranji Trophy match at the same venue where Services had refused to play a few days ago.

"A match is being played in Kashmir after four years. The Haryana team is here for the past six days and they have throughly enjoyed playing here. There was no security problem," said Saleem Khan, general secretary of the J&K Cricket Association.

Even though the first day's play was washed out, and just 10 overs could be bowled on the second, Thursday saw a full day's play bringing smiles on the faces of organisers. "We were disappointed when the Services team pulled out. With this match, we have put that incident behind us. Cricket has won the day," said a player in the J&K Ranji team.


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## brahmastra

PAFAce said:


> What's stopping you there, Mr. India?
> 
> India is not Israel, and Pakistan is no Palestine. If you were foolish enough to declare economic war on us, you'd better prepare for nuclear showers too, brother.



nuclear shower for just economic war.

where will you hide after nuclear attack?
never knew will hear this kinda statement from thinktank.


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## zagahaga

mltr said:


> And we care what the baluchi thinks



lol baloch we hate you hindus no offence but if i have a bad relationship with any indian ends up in him ghetting a black eye


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## zagahaga

PAFAce said:


> What's stopping you there, Mr. India?
> 
> India is not Israel, and Pakistan is no Palestine. If you were foolish enough to declare economic war on us, you'd better prepare for nuclear showers too, brother.



ummmmmmmm nuclear stuff ? how about full out war


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## PAFAce

brahmastra said:


> nuclear shower for just economic war.
> 
> where will you hide after nuclear attack?
> never knew will hear this kinda statement from thinktank.



He's talking about starving and blackmailing my people to death. Did you expect flowers? 

I mean who do you think you are? Who do you think we are? I may be in the Think Tank, but it doesn't mean sh*t to me if I can't shut idiots up who talk about starving my people and bankrupting my country. My question was simply, why do you think you haven't done all that already? Ponder that question before retaliating. It sure as hell isn't due to your "good nature".

Secondly, we won't hide. We can't. However, in such a scenario, we're going to go down one way or another, might as well take you with us. Also, Pakistan is an ideology, it'll pop back up in a few hundred years. What will happen of your children?

Also, were you aware that most wars actually start out as economic ones? People have been going to war over land, resources, even shipping routes for centuries. The means have changed, thus, the nuclear reference.

Next time, put aside the flags, and consider why someone would get so angry at a comment. Put yourself in the man's show, and think how you would react if someone said they were going to economically strangle your family. Sticking up for your buddies is a good thing, but justifying their stupidity isn't. It makes you both look like fools.



mltr said:


> And we care what the baluchi thinks


Yeah, I bet you do. First, please point Balochistan on a map. Secondly, have you ever met a Baloch in your life? Balochis couldn't give a damn about your feelings, they are based purely on anti-Pakistan sentiments and not on an understanding of their issues. You don't have to be smart to hate something, you _do_ have to be smart to justify that hate. I guarantee my membership on this board you don't know squat about the Baloch issues, and are repeating word-for-word only what you have seen in your media.

By the way, this is the same media that claims that the only reason the Indian cricket team lost to Australia in the recent ODI series was because the matches started in the early mornings. It had nothing to do with the fact that the Australian team is more talented, or played with more desire. If these matches had been held in the afternoons, India would have swept the series. I bet you ate up that horse sh*t as well.

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## paritosh

PAFAce said:


> He's talking about starving and blackmailing my people to death. Did you expect flowers?
> 
> I mean who do you think you are? Who do you think we are? I may be in the Think Tank, but it doesn't mean sh*t to me if I can't shut idiots up who talk about starving my people and bankrupting my country. My question was simply, why do you think you haven't done all that already? Ponder that question before retaliating. It sure as hell isn't due to your "good nature".
> 
> Secondly, we won't hide. We can't. However, in such a scenario, we're going to go down one way or another, might as well take you with us. Also, Pakistan is an ideology, it'll pop back up in a few hundred years. What will happen of your children?
> 
> Also, were you aware that most wars actually start out as economic ones? People have been going to war over land, resources, even shipping routes for centuries. The means have changed, thus, the nuclear reference.
> 
> Next time, put aside the flags, and consider why someone would get so angry at a comment. Put yourself in the man's show, and think how you would react if someone said they were going to economically strangle your family. Sticking up for your buddies is a good thing, but justifying their stupidity isn't. It makes you both look like fools.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I bet you do. First, please point Balochistan on a map. Secondly, have you ever met a Baloch in your life? I don't think they could give a damn about your feelings, if they are based purely on anti-Pakistan sentiments. You don't have to be smart to hate something, you do have to be smart to justify that hate. I guarantee my membership on this board you don't know squat about the Baloch issues, and are harping only what you have seen in your media.
> 
> By the way, did you know that according to your media, the only reason the Indian cricket team lost to Australia was because the matches started in the early mornings? I bet you ate up that horse radish as well.



oho PAFace...don't loose your cool...people here who tend to talk of nuclear wars have never seen someone die or take a bullet or get amputated...they don't know $hit about wars and the misery they bring...don't let them get your sanity.

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## praveen

PAFAce said:


> What's stopping you there, Mr. India?
> 
> India is not Israel, and Pakistan is no Palestine. If you were foolish enough to declare economic war on us, you'd better prepare for nuclear showers too, brother.



Sir can Pakistan glass India in a nuclear strike .My sources say it can't


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## mr42O

mltr said:


> And we care what the baluchi thinks



atleast some one has balls to say that. give ur balls to Indian goverment too they need that


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## New Shivaji

Some delusional people supporting pakistan and thinking of them as brothers and saviours are giving press statements like this. There is no real need to bother with them.

GOI will do whats in the interest of the country when the time comes for such action (even if it means agreeing to the text of FICCI)


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## pmukherjee

Developereo said:


> Congratulations!
> 
> You finally caught up with the point of this thread.



Agree with you my friend, regarding 'the point of this thread'.
But then why do the Chinese cry oh soooo loudly when India allows Dalai Lama to visit Tawang?

Is it utter hypocrisy or an advanced case of delusion?

Maybe, it is the mistaken belief that if the Chinese do it, it is ok. Others, however may not, dare not.


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## Atheist

The vicious cycle starts - Why dont people realise the importance of trade between 2 sovereign countries is more important than trying to choke them?? I would seriously disagree with the FICCI report - One should live - not at the cost of others life - See it this way - A farmer is among the poor (talking about small land owners ) - if his income is screwed the only future I can see for them is terrorism - It is easy to twist the mind of a person when he is hungry


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## Spring Onion

New Shivaji said:


> Some delusional people supporting pakistan and thinking of them as brothers and saviours are giving press statements like this. There is no real need to bother with them.
> 
> GOI will do whats in the interest of the country when the time comes for such action (even if it means agreeing to the text of FICCI)



The Only delusioned people in Held Kashmir are Indians


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## SMC

There's no reason why indians should be allowed to post bullshit like this on a Pakistani forum. I request mods to delete post like this and ban these members who continue to post indian far-right bullshit on a Pakistani forum. You wouldn't be allowed to post similar things on an indian forum.


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## Spitfighter

Ahsan_R said:


> There's no reason why indians should be allowed to post bullshit like this on a Pakistani forum. I request mods to delete post like this and ban these members who continue to post indian far-right bullshit on a Pakistani forum. You wouldn't be allowed to post similar things on an indian forum.



There's nothing 'far right' about my post. If one can talk about initiating a nuclear war for no reason, then I think its only fair to bring them back to reality.


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## praveen

Ahsan_R said:


> There's no reason why indians should be allowed to post bullshit like this on a Pakistani forum. I request mods to delete post like this and ban these members who continue to post indian far-right bullshit on a Pakistani forum. You wouldn't be allowed to post similar things on an indian forum.



He posted his thoughts with crustal clarity agreee\disagree with him or debate with him but calling him to banned is downright idiotic.The beauty of this forums lies in the fact the mods tolerate views which form a very broad spectrum and thats why many indians join this forum
rather than the Indian forums

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## inferno

*How Azad is `Azad Kashmir*

By Sultan Shaheen

If you want to study the situation in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and cannot go to even the minuscule part of this region designated as `Azad Kashmir, the best place to go to is England. Bradford, Birmingham, Nottingham, Luton, Slough and Southall are perhaps even better sources of information about the *** than Muzaffarabad, Mirpur, Bagh Rawalakot and Kotli. For the Kashmiris living in Britain breathe free air that it not much available in the so-called Azad Kashmir. Even if you so much as apply for a job you have to sign an affidavit saying you believe in the ideology of Kashmir banega Pakistan (Kashmir will become Pakistan).

I happened to be in England on the eve of recent election in `Azad Kashmir. Meeting `Azad Kashmiris in Britain proved revealing. The politically active among them have organised themselves on the lines of politics back home. Nearly all political organisations and ideologies are represented. They all appear to be working against India and, except JKLF, pro-Pakistan. Their activities range from the ridiculous to the more sober. I come across some Tehrik-e-Kashmir activists in Birmingham attempting to impose a boycott of Tilda rice supposedly imported from India. They are aware that India is far too big and powerful a country with a vast capacity to take losses to be bothered with such nonsense. But they think this helps them spread hatred against India. On the other hand they are making a serious and somewhat successful attempt at lobbying political parties, media and bureaucracy to convince them of the genuineness of their case against what they call Indian occupation of Kashmir and serious human rights violations.

But this is a superficial impression. Beneath the surface, most of them are disgusted with Pakistan and many of them find Indias handling of its part of Kashmir, despited the obvious difficulties and current hostilities, more commendable. Several people, for instance, mentioned that while India has respected Kashmirs age-old practice of not allowing outsiders to settle down in the valley, Pakistan has allowed over 28,000 Afghan families to settle down and fleece the local populace in the name of Jihad. These Afghans are even more exploitative that the Hindu baniya ever was, they point out.

The comparisons are endless. Kashmiris in the valley are better educated and better skilled. They have their own university with medical and engineering colleges. Some of us, particularly Mirpuris may be more prosperous, they say, but that is only because we managed to come to England when we were virtually thrown out of Pakistan as we lost our livelihood in the wake of the construction of Mangla Dam. The reference to Mangla Dam always brings out either complete silence in pro-Pakistan circles or vociferous protest from those who are not so particular about living with Pakistan. This Dam is said to supply 65% of the electricity needs of Pakistan, but the so-called Azad Kashmir does not get any royalty. Pakistans Water and Power Development Agency (WAPDA) is estimated to be earning over Rs. 50 crores from the electricity produced at Mangla, thought the total budget of the Azad Kashmir is in the vicinity of Rs. 10 crores.

The most talked about issue, of course, is that of Northern Areas which has been virtually swallowed by Pakistan Army. It comes in the news periodically only when there are Shia-Sunni clashes in the area of firing by the Army to quell anti-government demonstrations. In a historic judgment when a Kashmiri chief justice of the High Court dared to say a couple of years ago that the area was a part of Kashmir and had been illegally occupied by Pakistan Army, he instantly became a hero. Similar enthusiasm was shown by the Kashmiris towards Raja Mumtaz Hussain Rathore, the last PPP `Prime Minister of the so-called Azad Kashmir, who started taking up the issue of Northern Areas followed his dismissal and detention by the last Nawaz Sharif government.

This leads any discussion in the direction of almost complete denial of democracy to the so-called Azad Kashmir. While India has at least one or two free and fair elections in the valley, notably in 1977 and 1983, the Pakistani Establishment has dismissed and installed governments of `Azad Kashmir at will. The only party that has not been able to do so is Ms. Benazir Bhuttos Pakistan People Party as it is not considered a part of Establishment even when in power.

It is hardly surprising in view of such perceptions of the Pakistani Kashmiris that they throw out Sardar Qayyooms obscurantist Muslim Conference which has ruled them for most of the last half a century at the first available opportunity. They did that in 1990 and they have done that now. Sardar Qayyooms protestations of massive rigging by the PPP government in Islamabad is unbelievable. All that she had to do to win elections there was not to concede Sardar Qayyooms demand of allowing the Army to conduct elections.



Sardar Abdul Qayyoom Khans ruling Muslim Conference has been virtually wiped out in the small part of Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (***) designated as Azad Kashmir where generally farcical elections are held intermittently to buttress the fiction of its Azadi. He has blamed massive rigging for his defeat. This is predictably music to Indian ears. We have ourselves faced similar allegations in international as well as sections of national media in regard to recent elections in our part of Kashmir. But by playing up Sardar Qayyooms incredible claims in our media and in the diplomatic circuit, we are simply playing in the hands of Pakistans right wing obscurantists, Army and the Inter-Service Intelligence (ISI).

Indian media pundits and bureaucrats may have valid reasons to regard the ruling Pakistan People Party headed by Ms Benazir Bhutto and even its so-called Azad Kashmir branch as communal or obscurantist and anti-India. Obviously they must have more impeccable sources of information and intelligence. But the people of the so-called Azad Kashmir have been consistently told since the formation of PPP itself that it is secular, anti-Islam, anti-Pakistan and pro-India. The Pakistani media, the Sardar Qayyoom government, indeed the entire Pakistani Establishment has indulged in this propaganda on the largest possible scale for years. And yet they have chosen to give a massive mandate to this supposedly secular, progressive, pro-India party. Whether or not the PPP is secular and pro-India is not the issue. The fact that despite this widespread perception, the people of this piece of *** have chosen to elect it again must mean something to us in India. There is so clearly some message in this massive PPP victory and we should try to understand and interpret it in this light. Our hatred for Pakistan seems to have blinded us and we are reacting mindlessly.

Sardar Qayyooms party has ruled the so-called Azad Kashmir (I prefer to use this term rather that the popular ***, as this area is actually less than half of the ***) for most of the last half a century. He has himself ruled as President as well as Prime Minister for decades. he retains the love and affection of the military-bureaucratic and feudal-industrialist complex that rules Pakistan as ever. He is the darling of the obscurantist elements in the Pakistani Opposition, despite his son Sardar Ateeqs shenanigans. he had himself come to power in the present instance through a farcical election following an undemocratic and immoral, though constitutional and legal, dismissal and even detention of the last Prime Minister Raja Mumtaz Hussain Rathore who headed a duly elected Peoples Party government.

The rule in Pakistan is that the movement changes hands in Islamabad, the so-called Azad Kashmir government is dismissed and a new one installed through a farce of an election unless this happens to be a Muslim Conference government headed by Sardar Qayyoom. Following this glorious tradition the last Muslim league government headed by Mr. Nawaz Sharif had dismissed Mr. Mumtaz Rathore, detained him and installed Sardar Qayyoom. But Ms. Benazir Bhuttos PPP has never been allowed to follow this tradition. When she came to power a couple of years ago, she was widely expected to reinstall Mumtaz Rathore. She would not have required to rig the elections to do so. For reasons that we will discuss later the people of the so-called Azad Kashmir are fed up with the Sardar Dynasty. Indeed Ms. Bhutto is not capable of rigging elections there or anywhere else.

Ms. Bhutto came to power for the first time having won elections that followed President Zia-ul-Haqs death in August 1988, she was told that as chairperson of the Kashmir Council, she had the power to dissolve the Kashmir Assembly order fresh elections. She was considering the popular demand for dismissal of the Muzaffarabad government. But Sardar Qayyoom criticised Ms. Bhuttos policy of normalisation with India to undo the Islamic ideology and weaken the Pakistan Army. He wrote to President Guhlam Ishaq Khan: We will not allow a pro-India government in Azad Kashmir, He made it clear that he would not accept the electoral verdict if the PPP won. And despite all the pressure from the people of Pakistan Occupied `Azad Kashmir and her party she could not topple the Sardar government. Sardar Qayyoom completed his tenure in 1990.

Informed people are aware that Pakistan is ruled by a troika. A Pakistan Prime Minister can only do things with the concurrence of Washington and the local Establishment which includes the Army, ISI, Bureaucracy, Business, Feudal and Obscurantist elements. Ms. Bhuttos PPP was allowed to stay in power because for a variety of reasons not germane to this discussion she was for the moment begin tolerated by the two other parts of the troika. But she had very obvious limits to her power. She had enough powers thought to ensure that elections in the so-called Azad Kashmir are not rigged by any part of the troika including the Pakistani Establishment which would have loved to see Sardar Qayyoom back in power. All that she needed to do was not to concede Sardar Qayyooms persistent demand to allow the Army to conduct the elections.

Why did Ms. Bhutto allow Sardar Qayyoom during her second term to continue for so long and complete his full term again is thus no mystery. She was under intense pressure from the Sardar government. But she continued to be so incensed with Mr. Nawaz Sharif who had earlier dismissed and detained the PPP Prime Minister Raja Mumtaz Rathore that she was seriously considering taking them on in this case. This was when, according to my sources in PPP, a new element entered into the picture which proved decisive and finally saved the Sardar government.

President Laghari of Pakistan visited India and met a delegation of Kashmir valleys pro-Pakistan leaders. This delegation pleaded with him to persuade Ms. Bhutto not to dismiss Sardar Qayyoom. Their argument was that in the absence of Sardar Qayyoom the network supporting militancy in the valley would be disturbed. A PPP government there can obviously not be trusted to support the right wing network. Their second argument was even more important. Islamabad dismissing a duly elected Muzaffarabad government without any apparent reason, thought constitutionally valid and legal, would be clearly immoral and undemocratic that it would weaken their case that Kashmirs identity and autonomy would better protected by Pakistan that it is with India. Even though Pakistan has a history of such undemocratic dismissals, this particular dismissal at the height of militancy in the Valley would prove disastrous, so pleaded Hurriyat leaders. Despite all his sophistication and persuasive arguments, my sources tell me, it took President Laghari two and a half hours of intense pleading to dissuade Ms. Bhutto from dismissing Sardar Qayyooms government.

One wonders if the pro-Pakistan Hurriyat leaders in the valley are now pleading with Sardar Qayyoom not to accuse PPP government in Islamabad and his own government in Muzaffarabad of massive rigging in the elections. For, this too weakens their case of Kashmirs accession with Pakistan. It brings to light the farcical nature of `Azadi in the so-called Azad Kashmir. Of course, even this so-called Azadi is not available to the hapless people of the majority area of the Pakistan occupied Kashmir designated as Northern Areas. The vast areas of Gilgit and Baltistan have simply vanished from the face of the earth as far as the Pakistan Constitution and other legal documents are concerned, though until 1954, Pakistan used to supply maps that showed these territories as a part of Kashmir.

The Muslim Conference alleging massive rigging is indeed ridiculous. The Peoples Party massive mandate in Azad Kashmir represents not so much its own popularity as it articulates the disgust of the `Azad Kashmiris with Pakistani Establishment. The Muslim Conference is seen as this Establishments local representative despite its regional character. Ironically, the Peoples Party Kashmir unit is seen as more representative of the regional aspirations despite this Partys all-Pakistan character.

The plight of Azad Kashmiris calls for a separate write-up. What we can say here is that economic factors like lack of development of any industry, communication facilities, exploitation of Mangla dam for providing electricity to 65 per cent of Pakistan without any compensation, no local university, no local bank, no new bridges over the river Jhelum and so on do weight heavily on the minds of `Azad Kashmiris, what they resent most is their virtual slave status in the Constitution, new tensions in the wake of settlement of over 28,000 Afghan families, militant training camps and the inevitable rise of obscurantism due to almost uninterrupted half-a-century rule of the Muslim Conference. They have been told for years now that the accession of Kashmir valley to Pakistan is round the corner. But neither the proud Suddhan tribals, nor the wealthy Mirpuris (most of them have relatives in England) are prepared to accept the inevitable domination of the better educated and numerically stronger `hatos as they contemptuously refer to the Kashmiris of the valley in case Kashmir is united.



It is easier for an Indian to sympathise with you, regardless of the folly of your pursuit. With your emaciated body, you are the only Gandhi-like figure on the kashmir horizon. Despite your militant past, the country appeared to have accepted your protestations of peade when you renounced violence. Released from captivity, you received the best media attention any Kashmiri leader had got, perhaps with the solitary exception so Shabir Shah. But when you went on fast for three days in Delhi nevently to focus attention on human rights violations in Kashmir, there was hardly an mediaperson or realy any one else around. I wonder if you have been wondering why.

I wanted to ask you-what are doing with Hurriyat, Yasin Saheb?-when I visited you on the second day of your fast. But you were in no dondition to converse. You have been taking so much on yourslef, despite ill-health. Also, the question would have been a trifle awkward with so many Hurriyat leaders, including Chairman Mirwaiz Omar Farooq surrounding you.

You and Shabir Shah are the two prominent leaders who are associated with peaceful means of protest as well as what is called the third option, independence from both India and Pakistan. As other members of the Hurriyat Conference still stand for accession with Pakstan your association with Hurriyat has always been rather intriguing. Now this question has acquired some urgency with the recent declarations of the Hurriyat chief during his recent trip abroad. At a news conference in Washington, he said: No Third Option exists on Kashmir. All components of All-Parties Hurriyat Conference, despite their diversity have accepted this. The Kashmiris have to decide in a plebiscite whether they should opt for India or Pakistan.

Hurriyats total and rather desperate dependence on Pakistan become even more pronounced during the last SAARC foreign ministers conference in Delhi. Senior Hurriyat leaders like Umar Farooq, Sayed Ali Shah Geelani adn Professor Abdul Ghani met the visiting Pakistani foreign minister Sahabazda Yaqub Khan and criticised Islamabads efforts to improve trade relations with India. They felt Pakistnas business interests might overshadow the political aspirations of the people of Jammu and Kashmir. Since Pakistan seemed keen to remove trade barriers with India under the SAARC agenda, they feared it might ultimately not give that much importance to the Kashmir issue.

That Pakistan was getting ready to dump the Kashmiris and perhaps concentrate on improving its battered economy had become clear to me, Yasin Shaeb, several months ago. You couldnt have forgotten what happened in Leicester, U.K. last August. Expartriate Kashmiri leader Dr. Ayyub Thukar had organised a conference of Kashmiri leaders from India Pakistan as well. No one turned up from Pakistan. This became particularly embarrassing for the organisers because two people arrived even from India  the present writer and Mr. Subodh Kant Sahai. Finally, Islamabad, probably after much coaxing and cajoling, instructed its deputy High Commissioner in London to attent the conference who was able to reach there only for the last session.

One can hardly blame Pakistan, though, for this state of affairs. In the case of proxy wars this is almost routine. This is what Shah of Iran did with Mulla Barzanis Kurdish secessionist movement in Iraq. This is what Saddam Hussain does with Iranian Kurdish secessionists in Iran. Support them, use them, sell them and dump them is virtually the norm.

As Pakistani pro-occupation with tis impending political and economic disintegration grows, Hurriyat is bound to grow even more desperate. It is bound to shout louder and louder from rooftops higher and higher ist protestations of loyality to Pakistan. It is for leaders like you, Yasin Saheb, to think if Hurriyat is correctly representing your point of view. Shabbir Shah has proved smarter. He has manoeuvered himself out of Hurriyat at the right time. I wonder if you would reconsider your position vis-s-vis Hurriyat before it is too late for you to extricate yourself out of the mess that Hurriyat is beginning to sense it has got itself into.
__________________


How Azad is &#8220;Azad Kashmir&#8221; Kashmir the war of Mind and Brains





How Azad is `Azad Kashmir'


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## Spring Onion

hindu.wordpress

 a blog run by Indian Hindus.

lolzz whats the credibility of such a site other than spewing out Indian frustration

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## Comet

wasn't worth reading!


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## MilesTogo

Actually, you should bring out the lies in the above article for the benefit of all.



Jana said:


> hindu.wordpress
> 
> a blog run by Indian Hindus.
> 
> lolzz whats the credibility of such a site other than spewing out Indian frustration


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## Panditji

@Jana - What has credibility to do with Hindu or Muslim? You talk of tolerance in Pakistan, and give examples of intolerance like this...? Bipolar much?

@umairp - If you don't read posts on the forum, what the heck are you doing staring at the screen and paying your internet company??


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## Comet

Panditji said:


> @umairp - If you don't read posts on the forum, what the heck are you doing staring at the screen and paying your internet company??



I read it and it wasn't worth the precious time I devoted it!

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## FireFighter

MilesTogo said:


> Actually, you should bring out the lies in the above article for the benefit of all.



No, as a matter of fact we should accept his opinions as sacred and true as the Gita. 

that are not based on any factual evidences, survey's, or scholarly works or sources or foriegn journalists or observers citations, rather on hearsay and blind patriotic lines using isolated instances proving how Pak has turned the Azad kashmiris into Anti-Indian species 

this isn't at all convincing. are ya'll running out of anti-pak ammo now or what?

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## Panditji

Firefighter, what came out of your post above is a standard tactic, called DEFLECTION. You fail to address the request for pointing out discrepancies.


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## Spring Onion

Panditji said:


> @Jana - What has credibility to do with Hindu or Muslim? You talk of tolerance in Pakistan, and give examples of intolerance like this...? Bipolar much?
> :



A blog run by Indians has no credibility when it is speaking against Pakistan and Kashmir simple as that.


The write up is just a imagination of an Indian mind trying his/her level best to show Pakistan in a bad light.


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## Moorkh

both india and pakistan got their independence from the british through non violent means.

if the kashmiri will for independence is so strong they can do so the same way.

violence can not be condoned at all
it can not be condoned even if it is in response to violence. 
prove yourself better by not being dragged down to the level of the violence perpetuators


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## Spring Onion

BTW Indians should give one solid reason why Kashmiris should not be anti-India.


Its a big lie that Pakistan has turned Kashmiris from Azad Kashmir as anti-India.

The only thing which has turned kashmiris against India is Indian occupation of their country Kashmir. The daily killings of innocent Kashmiris in Indian Held Kashmir and rape of innocent Kashmiri women by Indian Army in Held Kashmir, fake encounters there and so on


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## Panditji

Jana - why do you assume the blog is run by an Indian - It says Kashmiri Hindu - Could it not be an "Azad" Kashmiri Hindu? 

It is this default association of "Hindu" with "Indian" in the Pakistani psyche that is responsible for reduction of Hindus in Pakistan from the 25&#37; at the time of partition to under 2% today.

Before jumping to conclusions, please think - you harm somebody innocent, if you don't.


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## inferno

This article also somewhat reflects the condition of kashmiri people living in pakistan occupied kashmir.
They are just playing cards for pakistan for getting water resources back!
They are using their resources and land against india.


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## Hulk

@Jana can you list down the number of rapes done by IA in Kashmir in 2009 also list down no of killing without any provocation and back it up with proof.


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## Spring Onion

Panditji said:


> Jana - why do you assume the blog is run by an Indian - It says Kashmiri Hindu - Could it not be an "Azad" Kashmiri Hindu?
> 
> It is this default association of "Hindu" with "Indian" in the Pakistani psyche that is responsible for reduction of Hindus in Pakistan from the 25% at the time of partition to under 2% today.
> 
> Before jumping to conclusions, please think - you harm somebody innocent, if you don't.



 oh you mean by putting word Kashmiri Hindu can save Indian skin of the fact that its been run by Indians then you are mistaken.


There are a number of news websites, news portals, in the names of Pakistani cities and even Balochs, Pashtuns which are run by now dont tell me because these websites have Pakistani names so these are Pakistani.

And i am saying so with conviction because i know who are runing them. Even some pro-India elements who are based in UK and US, Canada are getting funds from India and they are frequent visitors to India (i know them directly) what they are doing is the similar propaganda.


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## Spring Onion

inferno said:


> This article also somewhat reflects the condition of kashmiri people living in pakistan occupied kashmir.
> They are just playing cards for pakistan for getting water resources back!
> They are using their resources and land against india.



The only occupied Kashmir is Indian occupied Kashmir.


And not so fast Mr Indian. Most of dams constructed in Indian Occupied Kashmir are providing water to Indian states and not to Held Kashmir.

Go and have check before opening your mouth against Azad Kashmir


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## inferno

umairp said:


> wasn't worth reading!



It could have worth reading if you would have cared for your side of kashmiri people

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## NoMoneyNoHoney

Well..irrespective...of the credibility of the source...I think there should be more discussion about "Azad Kashmir"...

I mean thats what is in store for the Kashmiris if they end up joining Pakistan....


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## Spring Onion

indianrabbit said:


> @Jana can you list down the number of rapes done by IA in Kashmir in 2009 also list down no of killing without any provocation and back it up with proof.



Ahh very clever why dont you start counting these rapes and killings since Indian Occupation instead of only looking into 2009.






Kashmiri Muslim women during a funeral procession at Shopian, India, 30 May 2009 © AP/PA Photo/Dar Yasin

One killed, 150 injured as protests continue in Jammu & Kashmir following rape and murder of two young women | Amnesty International

10 June 2009 

*Protesters in Jammu & Kashmir continued to press for the Indian government to seriously pursue allegations that members of the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) raped and murdered two women. One person has already been killed and around 150 injured in week-long protests provoked by the sexual assault and murder of two young women in Shopian on 30 May. *

These protests are about the ongoing failure of the Indian government to bring members of the security forces to justice for serious human rights violations, said Sam Zarifi, Amnesty Internationals Asia-Pacific director. Until the Indian government provides accountability for the conduct of the armed forces in Kashmir, it will continue to face discontent from the residents.

*The two women, 22-year-old Aasiya Jan and her sister-in-law, 17-year-old Niloufer Jan, went missing when they went to tend their family fruit orchard on 29 May at Nagbal near Shopian. Their bodies were discovered the following day in two different places at Ranbi Ara, a stream close to a CRPF camp. *
Family members and local residents have accused the CRPF personnel of involvement in the sexual assault and murders and called for investigations.

Amnesty International has called on the Indian authorities to immediately carry out fair and impartial investigations into the allegations of CRPF involvement in the murders and sexual assault of the two women. 

Police and paramilitary forces have resorted to firing at protesters in several places, including Shopian, Baramulla and Srinagar. Reports from hospitals that admitted the injured indicate that security forces fired both live ammunition and rubber bullets. 

Authorities should ensure that security forces comply with international human rights standards on law enforcement, in particular those relating to the use of force to deal with protestors. Any instance of excessive use of force should be impartially investigated, said Sam Zarifi.

Local human rights organizations and journalists have informed Amnesty International that concerted attempts have been made to suppress evidence of sexual assault of the two women. Police also failed to interview potential witnesses, even as the state authorities ordered a judicial inquiry into the murders.

Amnesty International has repeatedly called for repeal of the security legislation in force in Jammu & Kashmir that facilitates impunity by providing discretionary powers to security forces and effectively enabling them to violate human rights. Serious concerns also remain over the effectiveness of past inquiries ordered by the authorities into human rights violations including unlawful killings, enforced disappearances and sexual assault of women. 

Amnesty International has also received information on 8 June that at least four leaders of Kashmiri separatist organizations have been arbitrarily detained. No charge has been levelled against them so far. 

One of the detained leaders, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, was taken to an unknown destination. Yasin Malik, Javed Mir and Mirwaiz Mohammad Umar Farooq were placed under house detention. 

Amnesty International has called on the authorities to disclose the details of their detention including as to how they are being treated and immediately release those detained unless they are charged with a recognizably criminal offence. Amnesty International has also said that they should only be held in official and acknowledged places of detention and brought promptly before an independent judicial authority.


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## inferno

Jana said:


> The only occupied Kashmir is Indian occupied Kashmir.
> 
> 
> And not so fast Mr Indian. Most of dams constructed in Indian Occupied Kashmir are providing water to Indian states and not to Held Kashmir.
> 
> Go and have check before opening your mouth against Azad Kashmir



What are you sayin gal
Azad kashmir has many problems which need to be discussed..
Its standard of living,crime rate etc.



> Well..irrespective...of the credibility of the source...I think there should be more discussion about "Azad Kashmir"...
> 
> I mean thats what is in store for the Kashmiris if they end up joining Pakistan....


Absolutely bro.. They need to know after joining pakistan whats in store for them


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## Spring Onion

NoMoneyNoHoney said:


> Well..irrespective...of the credibility of the source...I think there should be more discussion about "Azad Kashmir"...
> 
> I mean thats what is in store for the Kashmiris if they end up joining Pakistan....



They will decide joining any side or remain independent Only when India get out of their country which is occupied by India.


And no not irrespective of the credibility of the source because a weak source being quoted for Indian BS is not at all acceptable.


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## Spring Onion

inferno said:


> What are you sayin gal
> Azad kashmir has many problems which need to be discussed..
> Its standard of living,crime rate etc.
> 
> 
> Absolutely bro.. They need to know after joining pakistan whats in store for them




They will do it themselves. Bhartis not needed to tell them what they should do. The best you Indians should do is to look into the living standard of Indians, crimes and other such problems.


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## inferno

Jana said:


> Ahh very clever why dont you start counting these rapes and killings since Indian Occupation instead of only looking into 2009.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kashmiri Muslim women during a funeral procession at Shopian, India, 30 May 2009 © AP/PA Photo/Dar Yasin
> 
> One killed, 150 injured as protests continue in Jammu & Kashmir following rape and murder of two young women | Amnesty International
> 
> 10 June 2009
> 
> *Protesters in Jammu & Kashmir continued to press for the Indian government to seriously pursue allegations that members of the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) raped and murdered two women. One person has already been killed and around 150 injured in week-long protests provoked by the sexual assault and murder of two young women in Shopian on 30 May. *
> 
> These protests are about the ongoing failure of the Indian government to bring members of the security forces to justice for serious human rights violations, said Sam Zarifi, Amnesty Internationals Asia-Pacific director. Until the Indian government provides accountability for the conduct of the armed forces in Kashmir, it will continue to face discontent from the residents.
> 
> *The two women, 22-year-old Aasiya Jan and her sister-in-law, 17-year-old Niloufer Jan, went missing when they went to tend their family fruit orchard on 29 May at Nagbal near Shopian. Their bodies were discovered the following day in two different places at Ranbi Ara, a stream close to a CRPF camp. *
> Family members and local residents have accused the CRPF personnel of involvement in the sexual assault and murders and called for investigations.
> 
> Amnesty International has called on the Indian authorities to immediately carry out fair and impartial investigations into the allegations of CRPF involvement in the murders and sexual assault of the two women.
> 
> Police and paramilitary forces have resorted to firing at protesters in several places, including Shopian, Baramulla and Srinagar. Reports from hospitals that admitted the injured indicate that security forces fired both live ammunition and rubber bullets.
> 
> Authorities should ensure that security forces comply with international human rights standards on law enforcement, in particular those relating to the use of force to deal with protestors. Any instance of excessive use of force should be impartially investigated, said Sam Zarifi.
> 
> Local human rights organizations and journalists have informed Amnesty International that concerted attempts have been made to suppress evidence of sexual assault of the two women. Police also failed to interview potential witnesses, even as the state authorities ordered a judicial inquiry into the murders.
> 
> Amnesty International has repeatedly called for repeal of the security legislation in force in Jammu & Kashmir that facilitates impunity by providing discretionary powers to security forces and effectively enabling them to violate human rights. Serious concerns also remain over the effectiveness of past inquiries ordered by the authorities into human rights violations including unlawful killings, enforced disappearances and sexual assault of women.
> 
> Amnesty International has also received information on 8 June that at least four leaders of Kashmiri separatist organizations have been arbitrarily detained. No charge has been levelled against them so far.
> 
> One of the detained leaders, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, was taken to an unknown destination. Yasin Malik, Javed Mir and Mirwaiz Mohammad Umar Farooq were placed under house detention.
> 
> Amnesty International has called on the authorities to disclose the details of their detention including as to how they are being treated and immediately release those detained unless they are charged with a recognizably criminal offence. Amnesty International has also said that they should only be held in official and acknowledged places of detention and brought promptly before an independent judicial authority.




It is only one case and can happen anywhere. It can happen even in your capital city.. so it does not shows atrocities by IA..
Better try once again


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## Comet

inferno said:


> It could have worth reading if you would have cared for your side of kashmiri people



Stop lecturing.
This is the biggest joke, Indians telling Pakistani's how to take care of Kashmiris. Don't forget, it is IoK where both political and Military movements are taking place. If we were bad with our Kashmiri brothers, we would have same problems too. But we dont. so shut it!


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## inferno

Jana said:


> They will do it themselves. Bhartis not needed to tell them what they should do. The best you Indians should do is to look into the living standard of Indians, crimes and other such problems.



YA! we are looking at our living standards and looking at them seriously.
But Azad kashmir has got many follies like higher crime rates, more people going abroad in search of jobs etc. etc.
Also political instability.


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## inferno

umairp said:


> Stop lecturing.
> This is the biggest joke, Indians telling Pakistani's how to take care of Kashmiris. Don't forget, it is IoK where both political and Military movements are taking place. If we were bad with our Kashmiri brothers, we would have same problems too. But we dont. so shut it!


.

Sir!! my apologies to get you off mood..
But for your info military movements are also going on in *** in the form of terrorist training camps etc..
Even KL bill has mentioned towns like muridke


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## Spring Onion

inferno said:


> It is only one case and can happen anywhere. It can happen even in your capital city.. so it does not shows atrocities by IA..
> Better try once again



Not at all it is not a normal case. Indian army is raping Kashmiri women since many decades.

Your soldiers are killing Kashmiri youth, men, women and childern since many decades.

For Indians this must be normal case but not for Kashmiris.


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## zombie

so whats preventing you from giving them independence? its a shame that in the name of islamic brotherhood you have kept them as slaves. Not just them but also baluchis. This game obviously wont last long and it wont be long before some people understand that they were indeed tricked all along and had their land grabbed using religious ideology. The repercussions wont be pleasant then.You can fool some people some of the time not all the people all the time.


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## Spring Onion

inferno said:


> .
> 
> Sir!! my apologies to get you off mood..
> But for your info military movements are also going on in *** in the form of terrorist training camps etc..
> Even KL bill has mentioned towns like muridke



The Indians and teams from foreign media visited the so-called camps in Muridke and they found nothing rather an educational compound.

On ther other hand Indian Held Kashmir is not part of India hence any Kashmiri can go there and fight the occupying army


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## NoMoneyNoHoney

@Jana...

There are quite a few "Pakistani" new sources which are just as "BS"....as probably this source...

I do get to watch a lot of Pakistani TV these days since I got a satellite dish with many Pakistani channels...

Some times I shake at my head at the nonsense being propagated...including PTV news...

I enjoy the telephone service commercials though...Sab Kehdo...haha

I was merely saying that Azad Kashmir is something which all people should know about..even I don't know much about it..

Is it really the land of milk and honey...that awaits the poor exploited IOK residents...


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## inferno

Jana said:


> Not at all it is not a normal case. Indian army is raping Kashmiri women since many decades.
> 
> Your soldiers are killing Kashmiri youth, men, women and childern since many decades.
> 
> For Indians this must be normal case but not for Kashmiris.



Ah! again Same thing again and again without evidence or proof...
Same thih I can say-
You are looting baluchis of their resources for decades.
You are looting pashtunis off their land..

All is BS without proof..

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## Spring Onion

zombie said:


> so whats preventing you from giving them independence? its a shame that in the name of islamic brotherhood you have kept them as slaves. Not just them but also baluchis. This game obviously wont last long and it wont be long before some people understand that they were indeed tricked all along and had their land grabbed using religious ideology. The repercussions wont be pleasant then.You can fool some people some of the time not all the people all the time.



Zombie before acting like a zombie better straighten up your misconception.

Azad Kashmir is Independent. It has own Parliament, Own President and Own PM.



As far as Balochistan is concerned Oh Please refrain from poking your nose into Pakistani affairs. Balochistan is part of Pakistan unlike Held Kashmir which on UN resolution and a disputed area in the world.


And still if you want to poke your nose into our affairs then before doing so Kindly Give the innocent Naxals, Moists, Naga land and so on their independence.


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## inferno

Jana said:


> On ther other hand Indian Held Kashmir is not part of India hence any Kashmiri can go there and fight the occupying army



MISCONSEPTION


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## Spring Onion

inferno said:


> MISCONSEPTION



On the part of Indians


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## Luftwaffe

how azad is Kashmir (part occupied) in the hands of Indialets ask this question here.


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## inferno

Jana said:


> On the part of Indians



After passing more than 60 years you are still under this misconseption.. How many you will take to get out of it??


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## Iggy

Jana said:


> They will do it themselves. Bhartis not needed to tell them what they should do. The best you Indians should do is to look into the living standard of Indians, crimes and other such problems.



So what about the land ceded to China??Is that Azad Kasmiries taken care of themselves or Pakistani Government taking care of Azad Kashmiries??

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## NoMoneyNoHoney

I know quite a few Kashmiris...and they seem quite happy to be citizens of the exploited Indian Occupied Kashmir...Have never been to Kashmir proper...so not sure how the situation on the ground is...

Not sure If I was a Kashmiri...I wud like to be a part of the land of a million "bohrans'...hehe

Cheeni Ka Bohran

Aate ka Bohran

Tawanai Ka Bohran...

and the list goes on....

or so I hear on Pakistani TV


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## Luftwaffe

to nomoneynoH atleast not slumdog's ka bohran in kashmir Pakistan. There's a famous quote If you want some come get some.


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## gubbi

I really find it amusing how many people here come forward to claim Kashmir for Pakistan, but not Kashmiris! Reading their inane posts makes me pity them!

Btw, I personally know many Kashmiris and none, repeat NONE of them want to be part of Pakistan!!! They are all from Srinagar, educated in KU! Though they argue about the local administration in Kashmir, the fact remains that they DO NOT WANT PAKISTAN in Kashmir! 

@Jana - you talk so passionately for Kashmir, how many Kashmiris do you know personally? Have you ever asked a Kashmiri what his/her opinions are about Pakistan? Oh please do, you will be surprised! I live with them!

So believe in what you want to, ranters included. Kashmir is a part of India and all your internet battles cannot change ground realities (for that matter neither can PA do anything about it now). With rising Indian clout, we *may* as well see Kashmir, *in whole*, as a peaceful and prosperous State of India!

carry on.....

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## NoMoneyNoHoney

Well Slum dog won an Oscar....and its not as if India has a monopoly over slum dwellers either...

I have seen quite a few Pakistani slum dwellers on your TV...

Not so long ago there was a program about construction workers who actually helped build Islamabad living in slums...and being harassed daily..

Well to be honest I enjoy some of the shows on Pakistani TV and have nothing against Pakistanis..

Infact it kinda reminds me how similar we are.....


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## zombie

Fact is that people keep crowing about indian part of kashmir. ok lets say we are at fault. but that doesnt prevent pakistan from giving freedom to azad kashmir and gilgit baltistan is it? Not only that you felt it ok to sell the land of your brothers also to another country. lol this is hilarious. hypocrisy at its best. kashmiris in india might not be having the best of their times but atleast they havent been milked dry, have their lands stolen, brainwashed, their lands sold off and kept subdued like how the pakistani punjabis have done. So come again and declare gilgit baltistan and azad kashmir as indipendent countries. security can easily be provided by china or un.

Its plain and simple land grab. Perhaps someday the kashmiris, the baluchis, the sindhis will have a chance to return the favor to the punjabis. The bengalis have already done so and are out off the clutches. Not fully though as still seen by the recent massacre induced again by the punjabi dominated ISI. Pashtuns are only learning now how they have been made as dogs of war by the ever scheming punjabi. 

Frankly this whole India Pakistan problem is basically a Pakistani Punjabi-South Asia problem with the punjabi doing his best to brainwash/bully the rest to maintain his position of power. Its all about power and sometimes the cat is gonna come out of the bag. Sister Jana not withstanding you are another tool, a useful tool.

A recent report regarding those who see India as an enemy showed that Sindhis see India the least among the other group as an enemy. Baluchis we already know and Pashtuns have no direct connection to India historically. So basically its only Punjabi dominated army which finds it convenient to continue this retarded game. Anyways the kashmiri land has been sold to make a few more bucks for the Punjabi elite. Kashmiris are never ever gonna see independence, with or without India. The punjabi will make sure of that. Period. Now some brainwashed folks need to wake up from their sleep and smell the coffee. This war is only gonna hurt the sindhi, baluchi, pashtun, kashmiri in a nuclear war and it never was your war in the first place. You want to see your children die because you have been made a scapegoat by someone else?Cmon deep inside you know that you have been don't ya? Yesterday it was the Bengalis turn. Today its the Kashmiris, Pashtuns and Baluchis turn. Who exactly is dying in the east? Its the Kashmiri. Whose dying in the west.Its the pashtun. Whose having their kidney stolen? Its the Baluchi.

Truth is bitter.Try to swallow it sometime.


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## Luftwaffe

*You wrote "I really find it amusing how many people here come forward to claim Kashmir for Pakistan, but not Kashmiris!"*

Gotcha You've solved my problem you claim kashmiris are happy with India according to you but no Kashamiris here to prove your point.
*

"Btw, I personally know many Kashmiris and none, repeat NONE of them want to be part of Pakistan!!!"*

Care to give me their contact mail, email, phone, cellular I'm ready to contact them and extract the claim other wise if you fail to give me their contacts will devour your credibility of the claim.
*
"@Jana - you talk so passionately for Kashmir, how many Kashmiris do you know personally? Have you ever asked a Kashmiri what his/her opinions are about Pakistan? Oh please do, you will be surprised! I live with them!"*

Jana doesn't have to know or ask kashmiris personally even the opinion is not required..have you ever seen a black day observed against Pakistan in Azad/occupied Kashmir against Pakistan??Have you seen any violent or peaceful which ever protest against Pakistan in Azad/Occupied Kashmir?? The answer is "no" so stop ranting and babbling on the account that Kashmiris don't want to be the Part of Pakistan..
*
"So believe in what you want to, ranters included. Kashmir is a part of India and all your internet battles cannot change ground realities (for that matter neither can PA do anything about it now). With rising Indian clout, we may as well see Kashmir, in whole, as a peaceful and prosperous State of India!"*

you're one disturbed child of India..you ground realities are null and void if Kashmir is part of hindustan what are 700,000 forces doing there? why are black-days being observed, why are rallies, protests taking place against "india"..explanation must be brief concise prove to the point..


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## PAFAce

Despicable. Can't provide the oppressed people of IOK with freedom, so the immediate reaction is to put the blame on the other party. Claim that the so called "Pakistani occupied Kashmir" (by the way, they fought to be with us, how can it be occupied?) is not free. Who are you trying to fool anyway? Kashmiris, Pakistanis or yourselves?

You claim to know how Kashmiris really feel, but then admit you haven't met any Kashmiris or been there too many times Kashmir (probably went to some BSF garrison town at that). I have, to Azad Kashmir. I have never met a single Kashmiri that was pro-India and anti-Pakistan, either from Azad Kashmir or Indian Occupied Kashmir, and I have met more than most of you combined.

Now, it takes a man to admit his mistakes, and so I don't expect many of you to admit any of the above. The biggest argument you have is that "Kashmir doesn't want to become part of a failed state". Ok, whatever you say. The second argument you would like to bring up is "Baloshistan". Like I said to one other Indian friend on this forum, first point to Balochistan on a map. You have always tried the "dirty Punjabi" trick, and got away with it once. You will not again.

But hey, I forgot, every Indian is a born expert on Pakistan.


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## gubbi

luftwaffe said:


> Gotcha You've solved my problem you claim kashmiris are happy with India according to you but no *Kashamiris here to prove your point.*


I thought Duhastmish is Kashmiri, aint he? And he flies the Indian flag. You should also ask this question, why arent Kashmiris here on the *Pakistani* Defense Forum?


> Care to give me their contact mail, email, phone, cellular I'm ready to contact them and extract the claim other wise if you fail to give me their contacts will *devour your credibility of the claim*.


Excellent! Do you think I am mental? I cannot compromise their privacy, but I have asked one of them to join the PDF for political discussions. As to the question of credibility on an internet forum, I might as well be a 300 lb sloth in real life, claiming to be Ashton Kutcher. So would you.
If I get their permission, I will PM u their email. Apart form this I cannot do anything more! And neither can you.



> Jana doesn't have to know or ask kashmiris personally even the opinion is not required..have you ever seen a black day observed against Pakistan in Azad/occupied Kashmir against Pakistan??Have you seen any violent or peaceful which ever protest against Pakistan in Azad/Occupied Kashmir?? The answer is "no" so stop ranting and babbling on the account that Kashmiris don't want to be the Part of Pakistan..
> *
> 
> you're one disturbed child of India..you ground realities are null and void if Kashmir is part of hindustan what are 700,000 forces doing there? why are black-days being observed, why are rallies, protests taking place against "india"..explanation must be brief concise prove to the point..*


*

Again moot point. I have never said they support India, I said they do complain about the local administration - interpretation is wide open! What I have said is this, they DO NOT WANT PAKISTAN in Kashmir. Period.

As to passing comments without knowing people of the region is very stupid to say the least.*


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## afriend

Jana said:


> BTW Indians should give one solid reason why Kashmiris should not be anti-India.
> 
> 
> Its a big lie that Pakistan has turned Kashmiris from Azad Kashmir as anti-India.
> 
> The only thing which has turned kashmiris against India is Indian occupation of their country Kashmir. The daily killings of innocent Kashmiris in Indian Held Kashmir and rape of innocent Kashmiri women by Indian Army in Held Kashmir, fake encounters there and so on



You are clearly presenting the pakistani version of the events.. what about the militants who threaten rape and kill innocent kashmiris in the name of freedom and well religion..!!!!! i have heard first hand accounts of solidiers from themselves. and yes there was a time they didnt act liniently with the people who supported and gave shelter to militants.. but currently there are lot of preassure on the army and there are enquires made and the solider is imprissoned and punished for, in the event of any misconduct, which many outside dosent seem to know. And the soldier there cares only about their job and they don't take the risk to act indifferently due to that. 

All these are orchestaed by a greater evil who are behind the shadows, who doesnt care about kashmiris being killed. All they want is a piece of our land to spread their religoius fanatism. Which aptly is supproted by pakistan in the name of freedom struggle, for their own peronsal gain.

But you are obviously true to the success of the propoganda by the extrimists are only seeing one side of the coin and story.

And there are many kashmiris that don't like pakistan, and i can say there are even more kashmiris that don't like india. But we both are not going to withdraw from the parts held by each other. So its better to settle this issue keeping that hard fact in mind and try to work out peace. And if we are true to that peace deal that we can come up then kashmir still can remain a heaven on earth with larger interaction and people to people contact between the divded states. And who knows when the trust comes back or is invented here..... there might be greater things in store for kashmir, india and pakistan.


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## Hulk

Jana said:


> Not at all it is not a normal case. Indian army is raping Kashmiri women since many decades.
> 
> Your soldiers are killing Kashmiri youth, men, women and childern since many decades.
> 
> For Indians this must be normal case but not for Kashmiris.



Jana sister, you seems to have preconceived notion. I asked for 2009 data since we have to take some sample and it is recent in memory for everyone.

You could list only one case in 2009 even that is debatable since it is just allegation. Last I heard the Kashmiri doctor told CBI that she under public pressure declared both as rape victims while one of the girl was found virgin (I do not want to debate on this, if you dispute I can take your version for discussion).

Now with just 1 case you give sweeping statement's that Kashmiri's are being raped indicating that being a daily routine.

I am OK with people's stand on Kashmir that it can be considered dispute, but lets not twist facts. India might be controlling Kashmir but the armed forces conduct is been very good (minus few gray areas).

There was a photo I saw where a Kashmiri boy was pelting stone at CRPF men and he was been defensive, if India armed forces have been suppressor, he would have been dead or wounded.

The armed forces are always under pressure in Kashmir, no one likes to get suspended even when nothing is proved.


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## Hulk

luftwaffe said:


> how azad is Kashmir (part occupied) in the hands of Indialets ask this question here.



Lets stick to topic, there are many threads on discussion about India Kashmir. Lets discuss about Azad Kashmir here.


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## Spring Onion

gubbi said:


> I thought Duhastmish is Kashmiri, aint he? And he flies the Indian flag. You should also ask this question, why arent Kashmiris here on the *Pakistani* Defense Forum?



WAZ is Kashmiri and he flies Pakistani flag.

Platanium on the other PDF forum is a Kashmiri and also an admin there on that forum he also flies Pakistani flag.

many here would be from Kashmir. You need to ask how many they are.




> Excellent! Do you think I am mental? I cannot compromise their privacy, but I have asked one of them to join the PDF for political discussions. As to the question of credibility on an internet forum, I might as well be a 300 lb sloth in real life, claiming to be Ashton Kutcher. So would you.
> If I get their permission, I will PM u their email. Apart form this I cannot do anything more! And neither can you.



Thanks but no thanks because who trusts Indians if they will not be Indian??





> Again moot point. I have never said they support India, I said they do complain about the local administration - interpretation is wide open! What I have said is this, they DO NOT WANT PAKISTAN in Kashmir. Period.



lolzz Neither we wish to be there.

Pakistan always supported what Kashmiris want. If they want to be with India, Pakistan or want to be Independent, Pakistan has accepted all these options only if Kashmiris want.

Now its Indian turn to have some guts and hold referendum under neutral observers, UN.

We are ready to accept Kashmir as an Indepenednt Country if Kashmiris vote for that.

So does India have any guts to face the neutral referendum

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## Spring Onion

indianrabbit said:


> Lets stick to topic, there are many threads on discussion about India Kashmir. Lets discuss about Azad Kashmir here.



lolz he is very much on the topic. Because the propaganda posted from Indian blog says that its Pakistan who have truned Kashmiris from Azad Kashmir against India.

Whereas the fact is that Kashmiris all arround the world are against Indian occupation of their country.


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## Spring Onion

indianrabbit said:


> Jana sister, you seems to have preconceived notion. I asked for 2009 data since we have to take some sample and it is recent in memory for everyone.
> 
> You could list only one case in 2009 even that is debatable since it is just allegation. Last I heard the Kashmiri doctor told CBI that she under public pressure declared both as rape victims while one of the girl was found virgin (I do not want to debate on this, if you dispute I can take your version for discussion).
> 
> Now with just 1 case you give sweeping statement's that Kashmiri's are being raped indicating that being a daily routine.
> 
> I am OK with people's stand on Kashmir that it can be considered dispute, but lets not twist facts. India might be controlling Kashmir but the armed forces conduct is been very good (minus few gray areas).
> 
> There was a photo I saw where a Kashmiri boy was pelting stone at CRPF men and he was been defensive, if India armed forces have been suppressor, he would have been dead or wounded.
> 
> The armed forces are always under pressure in Kashmir, no one likes to get suspended even when nothing is proved.




Let me come up with other news after sometime.

But shying away from Indian army attrocities by just accepting what happend in only 2009 is just more than hypocratic,

My brother atleast accept that your army had done alot of killings of innocent Kashmriis which is why you still face hate from Kashmiris and you still need thousands of forces there.

And i wonder Indians failed to see that by continuing these activities they are only adding to hatered not winning hearts


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## Luftwaffe

that's quiet a failure on your part you've completely failed in satisfying and proving your points..you claim Kashmiris don't want to be part of Pakistan yet you don't want to prove it to me infact to this thread..building castle in the sky can satisfy you in dreams reality is different.

you care about their privacy now you say you'll give me their information in PM? contradictions contradiction make up your mind. read your own posts prior to this post.

*"Btw, I personally know many Kashmiris and none, repeat NONE of them want to be part of Pakistan!!!"
"*
so do Kashamirs don't want to be part of Pakistan or they don't want Pakistan in kashmir?? what are you trying to explain? or you're under harsh scrutiny lol. you seem frustrated..

you said "As to passing comments without knowing people of the region is very stupid to say the least." 

I replied to your posts not just pass comments mare in the dark..and your own comments goes towards you ; you have to know Kashmiris in person or in depth other-wise you'll portray you're self as jackass without any clue. So what do you mean by knowing people of the region referring to you hindus or Kashmiris?


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## Spring Onion

NoMoneyNoHoney said:


> Just calling a place "Azad" does not make it azad...its just semantics..
> 
> I think we should rename our part
> 
> "Really Azad Kashmir" or RAK for short...double the azadi..100% guaranteed...




If so why dont you delcare Indian Occupied Kashmir as Azad Kashmir and also why dont you give them status of a free country with own President, Parliament, Flag, Prime Minister.


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## SSG VIPER

To all respected indian members and a reply to the accusations of all indians on this thread>>>
Sir ata ka bohran etc still ITS OUR BAD GOVT POLICIES STILL PEOPLE ARE SURVING UNLIKE HOMELESS PEOPLE IN MILLION IN INDIA we are on track FOR JUST AN EXAMPLE WHEN U THOUGHT PAK WILL FAIL WITHIN A FEW MONTHS OR YEARS 1947 when we didnt even get our share of finance or weapons or equipment where as u had 18 ordinance factories and we had none and we recieved old third class planes from burma(not even the number decieded by british or govt)out of which HALF didnt even reach pak as they were crashed those who reached were repaired with tin sheets etc..
U also have BOHRANS bigger then ours like POVERTY AIDS ORGAN SMUGGLING PROSTITUTION AND HUMAN TRAFFICING PEOPLE SELLING WOMEN AND CHILDREN TO FORIEGNERS..DRDO the BIGGEST BOHRAN.ETC
Now comming to AZAD KASHMIR sir they have there own govt does IOK have ONE???? YEAH A PUPPET govt.Jails REAL LEADERS LIKE MR FAROOQ,GILLANI ETC TORTURING MR YASEEN MALIK WHO IS NOW ALMOST A CRIPPLE THANKS TO KIND INDIANS AND THERE LOVE TOWARDS KASHMIR MUSLIMS ??? no visas to go out of india.NO REFRENDUM ACCORDING TO UN resolutions 700000 MILITARY PRESENCE more then 15000 youths killed several thousand women raped.Hundreds of protests INDIAN FLAG BURNINGS PAKISTANI FLAG RAISINGS EVEN IN ASSAM.SCORES OF YOUTH MISSING VIOLENCE against women children even elderly people.
NOW Pakistan no massive military presence.No Anti PAKISTAN protest.Active govt,ANTI INDIA PROTESTS...Kashmiri people in PAK ARMY my thousands i personally know many kashmiri pakistan army officiers,i have lots of kashmiri origin students or class fellow who look like us as there is no BIG DIFFERENCE UNLIKE.IN INDIA ask any kashmiri if he is indian or kashmiri????
CARE?yes sir pakistani people care about kashmiris remember 2005 EARTH QUAKE???????
KSHMIRIS GOING TO ENGLAND???? yes they are living in UK ...As well as almost 1 MILLION PAKISTANIS so does that mean PAKISTANIS HATE PAKISTAN SO THEY ARE LEAVING TO UK??????????
DID U SEE OR HEAR ANY ANTI PAK PROTEST ?????
ANY MASSIVE PAK ARMY BUILD UP????
ANY MUJAHIDEEN FIGHTING PAK ARMY?????
PAK FLAG BURNINGS?????
ANY RAPE OR KILLINGS REPORTED AGAINST PAK ARMY??????????
SO I THINKS THIS ARTICLE AND THE THOUGHT OF MEMBERS OF INDIAN ORIGIN ARE NOTHING BUT UTTER CRAP WITH BASELESS BS AND NO GROUND REALISTIES...,.................PLEASE TALK SOME SENSE BASED ON FACTS NOT ON ARTICLES WRITTEN BY RETARDS LIKE HARI SUD OR BHARAT VERMA


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## gubbi

luftwaffe said:


> that's quiet a failure on your part you've completely failed in satisfying and proving your points..you claim Kashmiris don't want to be part of Pakistan yet you don't want to prove it to me infact to this thread..building castle in the sky can satisfy you in dreams reality is different.
> 
> you care about their privacy now you say you'll give me their information in PM? contradictions contradiction make up your mind. read your own posts prior to this post.
> 
> *"Btw, I personally know many Kashmiris and none, repeat NONE of them want to be part of Pakistan!!!"
> "*
> so do Kashamirs don't want to be part of Pakistan or they don't want Pakistan in kashmir?? what are you trying to explain? or you're under harsh scrutiny lol. you seem frustrated..
> 
> you said "As to passing comments without knowing people of the region is very stupid to say the least."
> 
> I replied to your posts not just pass comments mare in the dark..and your own comments goes towards you ; you have to know Kashmiris in person or in depth other-wise you'll portray you're self as jackass without any clue. So what do you mean by knowing people of the region referring to you hindus or Kashmiris?



I said Kashmiris do not want Pakistan in Kashmir - neither as an occupying force nor as the federal govt. The message should be quite clear.

I said, I will ask *their permission* to PM you their mail id. Rest of your post doesn't deserve a comment, its categorized as "ranting".

Btw, considering the state Pakistan is in now, do you really think Kashmiris want to be part of Pakistan? Include the religious pov and the different sect of Islam followed by Kashmiris.


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## Spring Onion

NoMoneyNoHoney said:


> @SSG Viper
> 
> Calm down mate...relax...
> 
> How about a Jadoo ki Jhappi and forget about everything...
> 
> Itna gussa acha nahin hai?



Oh i forgot to reply to that silly post of yours atta ka bohran and so on.

You tell me why would Kashmiris want to be part of poverty-striken India, where millions go to bed empty stomach.


Why would they want to join Hindu dominated country where stinking cast system is still depriving millions of low cast own Hindus, how would Indian be able to treat Kashmiris mostly Muslims, well.

Why would they want to join a country where own one of the biggest miniority the Indian Muslims are still treated like outsiders,

where Gujrat, Orissa, Golden Temple, Babri Mosque etc kinds of incidents of barbarism are still continued.

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## Spring Onion

gubbi said:


> I said Kashmiris do not want Pakistan in Kashmir - neither as an occupying force nor as the federal govt. The message should be quite clear.
> 
> Btw, considering the state Pakistan is in now, do you really think Kashmiris want to be part of Pakistan? Include the religious pov and the different sect of Islam followed by Kashmiris.



It does not matter what an Indian says or what we think or what one on forums thinks.

If you want to know would Kashmiri like to join Pakistan in the current state/situation or would it join India or want to be remain, for that the only way is to condut a free fair referendum under UN and neutral parties both in Indian Held Kashmir and Azad Kashmir.

Only then we will come to know what Kashmiris want.

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## inferno

Self delete


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> Btw, considering the state Pakistan is in now, do you really think Kashmiris want to be part of Pakistan? Include the religious pov and the different sect of Islam followed by Kashmiris.



Blah blah blah - It's a poor Indian bluff and Pakistanis always call it by saying, 'fine, Kashmiris hate/dislike Pakistan compared to India' - then India should have no problems implementing her commitments to the UNSC resolutions and allowing a UN held plebiscite in Azad Kashmir + IoK Valley.

And on that point all manners of lame Indian excuses are trotted out, exposing the Indian claims for what they are.

A UN held plebsicite is really the only way to settle the claims of 'who do the Kashmiris owe allegiance to' - and on that count we know precisely which side loses their tatay on holding a referendum to back up their position.

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## UchihaCG

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Blah blah blah - It's a poor Indian bluff and Pakistanis always call it by saying, 'fine, Kashmiris hate/dislike Pakistan compared to India' - then India should have no problems implementing her commitments to the UNSC resolutions and allowing a UN held plebiscite in Azad Kashmir + IoK Valley.
> 
> And on that point all manners of lame Indian excuses are trotted out, exposing the Indian claims for what they are.
> 
> A UN held plebsicite is really the only way to settle the claims of 'who do the Kashmiris owe allegiance to' - and on that count we know precisely which side loses their tatay on holding a referendum to back up their position.



Ireland wanted to be a part of the UK?

Do you think Philippines and Virgin Islands want to join the united states?

Of course UN will say it's maintaining peace. They have nothing to loose. They only speak when they want to. They never spoke about US and Europe because they CONTROL the UN. It's only Asia, Africa that has all the human rights violations ^^.

What are we doing wrong by administrating what is RIGHTFULLY ours. After the partition. OUR government didn't want Kashmir. KASHMIR wanted US!!!!!!!!!!!!! Read up on Lord Mountbatten and why he accepted the Maharaja's request to join India.---Because they need India's military support from PAKISTANI Tribals.

Ofcourse that's history. Now India seems to be the bad guys because "oh no" we're forcing your Muslim "brothers" against their will and not giving up Kashmir.

If you care so much about Kashmir, why don't you support an INDEPENDENT KASHMIR. Why don't you stop training terrorists so they won't attack KASHMIR. They are killing your own brothers. Why did you start 3 wars with us if you cared so much about Kashmir?

Your government training militants and spreading Anti-India propaganda and inviting Kashmirs as brothers because they share the same religion is what's brainwashing Kashmiris. Indian government is now trying to recruit youth in Kashmir.---NOT start terrorist camps to bomb Azad Kashmir.

I am not saying the Indian government is all goody-goody. We do have many idiots within the government. But your opinion need not be said in a biased way to influence others. 

Long live India!!.

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## deepakthirdreich

India claims the entire former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir and presently administers approximately 43% of the region including most of Jammu, Kashmir Valley, Ladakh and the Siachen Glacier which is contested by Pakistan which controls approximately 37% of Kashmir, mainly Azad Kashmir and the northern areas of Gilgit and Baltistan. In addition, China controls 20% of Kashmir including Aksai Chin which it occupied following the brief Sino-Indian War of 1962 and the Trans-Karakoram Tract, also known as the Shaksam Valley, that was ceded to it by Pakistan in 1963.India's official position is that Kashmir is an "integral part" of India. Pakistan's official position is that Kashmir is a disputed territory whose final status must be determined by the people of Kashmir.

Before Independence from British in 1947 from 1820, Kashmir was governed by the Maharaja of Kashmir who was Hindu although the majority of the population were Muslim, except the Jammu region. On partition Pakistan expected Kashmir to be annexed to it.

In 1947, British rule in India ended with the creation of two new nations: the Union of India and the Dominion of Pakistan while British suzerainty over the 562 Indian princely states ended. According to the Indian Independence Act 1947, "the suzerainty of His Majesty over the Indian States lapses, and with it, all treaties and agreements in force at the date of the passing of this Act between His Majesty and the rulers of Indian States", so the states were left to choose whether to join India or Pakistan or to remain independent. Jammu and Kashmir had a predominantly Muslim population but a Hindu ruler and was the largest of the princely states. Its ruler was the Dogra King (or Maharaja) Hari Singh.

In October 1947, Pakistani tribals from Dir entered Kashmir intending to liberate it from Dogra rule. Unable to withstand the invasion, the Maharaja signed The Instrument of Accession that was accepted by the Government of India on October 27, 1947(wiki)

now all i want to say is that you control 37% of Kashmir and if u are so concerned about our muslim brother in kashmir why dont you conduct a free and impartial plebiscite under the support of United Nations all over in pakistan then maybe GOI will think of conducting one too.atleast it will be a start .come on guys set an example for stupid( hindu) india.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

UchihaCG said:


> Ireland wanted to be a part of the UK?
> 
> Do you think Philippines and Virgin Islands want to join the united states?
> 
> Of course UN will say it's maintaining peace. They have nothing to loose. They only speak when they want to. They never spoke about US and Europe because they CONTROL the UN. It's only Asia, Africa that has all the human rights violations ^^.
> 
> What are we doing wrong by administrating what is RIGHTFULLY ours. After the partition. OUR government didn't want Kashmir. KASHMIR wanted US!!!!!!!!!!!!! Read up on Lord Mountbatten and why he accepted the Maharaja's request to join India.---Because they need India's military support from PAKISTANI Tribals.
> 
> Ofcourse that's history. Now India seems to be the bad guys because "oh no" we're forcing your Muslim "brothers" against their will and not giving up Kashmir.
> 
> If you care so much about Kashmir, why don't you support an INDEPENDENT KASHMIR. Why don't you stop training terrorists so they won't attack KASHMIR. They are killing your own brothers. Why did you start 3 wars with us if you cared so much about Kashmir?
> 
> Your government training militants and spreading Anti-India propaganda and inviting Kashmirs as brothers because they share the same religion is what's brainwashing Kashmiris. Indian government is now trying to recruit youth in Kashmir.---NOT start terrorist camps to bomb Azad Kashmir.
> 
> I am not saying the Indian government is all goody-goody. We do have many idiots within the government. But your opinion need not be said in a biased way to influence others.
> 
> Long live India!!.


Like I said, call the Indian bluff on 'Kashmiris hate Pakistan and want to be with India', by asking for an implementation of India's commitment to the UNSC resolutions calling for a UN held plebsicite, and the excuses spew forth and tatay vanish.


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## MilesTogo

there was a good election turn out in Kashmir recently...

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

MilesTogo said:


> there was a good election turn out in Kashmir recently...



Wonderful - more proof the Kashmiris love India and hate Pakistan!

How about that UN plebsicite now ...

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## ambidex

I have objections on any discussions based on a blog entry without any reference to the concerns made within.

But as this issue can not be ignore on the merits and as a part and parcel of the Issue of J&K. Different schools of thought must be entertained to make this issue well discussed and Ideal.
I am pasting a link to very interesting letter which twinkles light on some problems of people of AK. 
Rest i will leave on readers to defend or exaggerate  issues highlighted.
As in statistics we infer to a sample, so i wont mind suggesting my Pro-opinion on such claims that AK is not sterilized form the misadventures of some out side forces effecting its very native population.
Regards.
Link:
*http://www.scribd.com/doc/17051624/Letter-to-PM-Pakistan *


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## hembo

*In J-K, jobless to get money to set up business*
Mon, Nov 16 06:21 AM

Lack of money will no longer keep unemployed youth in J&amp;K from starting business units. The state government, under a new scheme to be launched soon, will fund businesses of young entrepreneurs who can't find government jobs, the main source of employment in a state where private sector jobs are almost non-existent.

Under the scheme, likely to be launched by Chief Minister Omar Abdullah on December 5, the birth anniversary of National Conference founder Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah, unemployed men and women between 18 and 37years of age will get Rs 3 to 10 lakh to set up income generating units in the state. Entrepreneurs would get Rs 3-5 lakh as margin money and seed money which they would not have to pay back. For building common facility centres  cold storage facilities for flowers and fruits, collection centre for packaging and grading of fruits, labs for agriculture and food items  entrepreneurs would get assistance amounting to 50 per cent of the project cost or a maximum of Rs 10 lakh.

The scheme, however, comes with a rider. Those who get the funding can't seek government jobs. In fact, they will have to undertake the same in writing through a government employee. In case, the person takes up a government job resulting in closure of business, the guarantor employee will have to refund the money along with interest. "We have made it mandatory for youth that they can't take up a government job after receiving the money. This is to ensure real self-employment," J&K's Labour Minister A G Malik said.

Jammu and Kashmir Entrepreneurship Development Institute (JKEDI) will prepare project reports, release money, identify viable businesses and assist in setting up as well as running of the business. Though all modalities of the scheme have not been disclosed yet, the youth have been asked to register for the scheme. Omar too has reportedly directed his partymen to get the youth registered.

About 4 lakh unemployed youth have already registered with the employment department since August when Finance Minister Abdul Rahim Rather announced the government would launch the scheme.

*ISRO to set up satellite stations in J-K schools*

SRINAGAR: THE Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) has decided to set up 1,000 satellite receiving stations in J&amp;K to make education accessible to people living in the remote border regions of the state. 

ISRO said it was impressed with the "good use" of Edusat, a satellite devoted exclusively to long-distance learning, by J&amp;K since the services were launched in the state in 2007 which led to the decision to establish the stations.

ISRO will set up 500 stations each in schools and colleges in Kashmir and Jammu. A good number of these stations will also be established in Ladakh region. "These stations will come up in every district," Director School Education, Kashmir, Shagufta Parveen said. "We have already established these stations at Karnah,Keran, Ladakh and Anantnag. We have also set up one such station at Women's College in Srinagar." 

The project would benefit around 10.23 lakh students in the Valley and Ladakh alone.

MAJID JAHANGIR
Ishfaq Naseem


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## SSG VIPER

inferno said:


> Ah! again Same thing again and again without evidence or proof...
> Same thih I can say-
> You are looting baluchis of their resources for decades.
> You are looting pashtunis off their land..
> 
> All is BS without proof..


DO YOU KNOW JANA IS ALSO PUSHTUN????ASK HER
HOW Many land PAKISTAN HAS LOOTED OR ANY BALOUCHI
MEMBER?IFu U CANTu STOP YOUR CRAPPY IMAGINATION
THEN GO SHOOT UR BLOODY SELRF


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## eastwatch

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Wonderful - more proof the Kashmiris love India and hate Pakistan!
> 
> How about that UN plebiscite now ...



No, no, no, you are mistaken about plebiscite. It has no validity now, because Indians will say that because Kashmiris are voting in all the elections, therefore, this participation itself is a manifestation of their eagerness to stay with India.


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## MilesTogo

eastwatch said:


> No, no, no, you are mistaken about plebiscite. It has no validity now, because Indians will say that because Kashmiris are voting in all the elections, therefore, this participation itself is a manifestation of their eagerness to stay with India.


correct........


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## vsdoc

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> and tatay vanish.



Wow! Nice to see some rustic Punjabi behind those mind numbing UN resolutions! 

Of course we all know whose tatte vanished where and when ..... or were they congenitally undescended to start with?

Cheers, Doc


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## Barrett

so who actually went to the UN for a solution... ?


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## afriend

Jana said:


> Pakistan always supported what Kashmiris want. If they want to be with India, Pakistan or want to be Independent, Pakistan has accepted all these options only if Kashmiris want.
> 
> Now its Indian turn to have some guts and hold referendum under neutral observers, UN.
> 
> We are ready to accept Kashmir as an Indepenednt Country if Kashmiris vote for that.
> 
> So does India have any guts to face the neutral referendum



We doubt that. We understand you support kashmir cause for your own benifit and probably give a revenge for bangladesh. How else can you look at it when you have no qualms about aksai chin and how you convinently seperated northern areas from azad kashmir. 

So your attitude india doesnt trust. And pakistanis hate indians guts. Many kashmiris are fed up and wants be independent and are suffering from the proxy war conducted by you. And also frustrated by the indian armys presence in the daily life of kashmiris as a resultant of that proxy war. 

So as two nations no body can afford to budge to terrorsim and india is certainly not going to buy the other wise logical point raised by pakistan of the self determination of kashmiris as india cannot fail against the proxy war by pakistan. It is as simple as that. Unfotunately it seems kashmiris are going to be the sufferers for a very very long time..!!!!


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## toxic_pus

Developereo said:


> Azad Kashmir is part of Pakistan and their residents are accepted as Pakistanis by every country, including China and India.
> 
> India or China do not issue separate visas to Pakistanis of Kashmiri origin.


In other words,

1. People of 'Azad' Kashmir are not really 'Azad' (Independent).

2. All dispute regarding 'Azad' Kashmir has vanished into thin air, courtesy some mysterious Djinn.

3. China is giving serious competition to Pak, in the game of hypocrisy.

Thanks for the clarification.


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## dvk1982

Developereo said:


> Congratulations!
> 
> You finally caught up with the point of this thread.



well may be u need to correct ur perceptions.. we don't yet recognize pak's kashmir as integral part of Pakistan....


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## Developereo

RobbieS said:


> Hmm...so its not really Azad, is it? Just given a fake name to grab land and resources?



See below...



toxic_pus said:


> In other words,
> 
> 1. People of 'Azad' Kashmir are not really 'Azad' (Independent).



They are azaad, i.e. free, of Indian domination.
Hence the name Azad (free), as opposed to Indian *occupied* Kashmir.



toxic_pus said:


> 2. All dispute regarding 'Azad' Kashmir has vanished into thin air, courtesy some mysterious Djinn.



Courtesy of the fact that, compared to IOK, there is no comparable movement in Azad Kashmir seeking independence from Pakistan. Pakistan doesn't need to position 600,000 soldiers to quash any indepedence movement.



dvk1982 said:


> well may be u need to correct ur perceptions.. we don't yet recognize pak's kashmir as integral part of Pakistan....



What Pakistan and India say about Kashmir doesn't matter. Pakistan has been trying to internationalize the issue, while India is adamant about keeping it strictly bilateral. The whole point of China's visa action is to make it crystal clear to India that China (a third party) considers Kashmir to be an international issue, thus supporting Pakistan's position.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

eastwatch said:


> No, no, no, you are mistaken about plebiscite. It has no validity now, because Indians will say that because Kashmiris are voting in all the elections, therefore, this participation itself is a manifestation of their eagerness to stay with India.



The residents of British India also voted in elections under the British Raj.

At a basic level people want governance.

Elections reflect their desires in terms of how they wish to be governed, a plebsicite would reflect their desire of which nation they owe allegiance to.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

indianrabbit said:


> Who cares what these Kashmiri thinks.



That is pretty much why you don't have their allegiance.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

brahmastra said:


> nuclear shower for just economic war.
> 
> where will you hide after nuclear attack?
> never knew will hear this kinda statement from thinktank.



Cutting off water is not 'just economic war'.

Feel free to cut off trade ties all you want, but given that around 60% of Pakistan's population is involved in agriculture, you might as well be lobbing nukes at Pakistan when you cut off the water flow, and the response will be equally drastic.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Spitfighter said:


> There's nothing 'far right' about my post. If one can talk about initiating a nuclear war for no reason, then I think its only fair to bring them back to reality.


Cut the BS - cutting off the water supply to Pakistan is hardly 'no reason', as I explained above.

Watch the warmongering next time.


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## Goodperson

IHK traders slam FICCI for advocating economic attacks on Pakistan
attacks not terrorist attack right ?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Goodperson said:


> IHK traders slam FICCI for advocating economic attacks on Pakistan
> attacks not terrorist attack right ?



FICCI proposals would lead to military confrontation, that is what the IHK traders are condemning.


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## Enigma SIG

indianrabbit said:


> Who cares what these Kashmiri thinks.



Wah. Wonder why u raise the slogan "Kashmir hamara hai" if you dont give a damn about them. Thank you for putting the Indian sentiment towards Kashmiris in a open forum


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## toxic_pus

Developereo said:


> They are azaad, i.e. free, of Indian domination.
> Hence the name Azad (free), as opposed to Indian *occupied* Kashmir.
> 
> 
> 
> Courtesy of the fact that, compared to IOK, there is no comparable movement in Azad Kashmir seeking independence from Pakistan. Pakistan doesn't need to position 600,000 soldiers to quash any indepedence movement.


The 'dispute' as per UN, and agreed upon by both India and Pakistan, is regarding 'ownership' of Kashmir, which includes the Northern areas. Unless 'ownership' is decided, 'dispute' is not resolved. 

At least that's the impression that the cheerleaders for UN give. What these cheerleaders forgot to tell us was that Pakistan gets to pick and choose the criteria for 'ownership'. Wonder why, then Pakistanis whine for plebiscite? 

Oh well, thats Pakistan for us.


> *What Pakistan and India say about Kashmir doesn't matter*. Pakistan has been trying to internationalize the issue, while India is adamant about keeping it strictly bilateral. The whole point of China's visa action is to make it crystal clear to India that China (a third party) considers Kashmir to be an international issue, thus supporting Pakistan's position.


Wasn't aware of any dispute, where, what the parties to the dispute say, 'don't matter.'

Then again, thats Pakistan for us.


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## Developereo

toxic_pus said:


> At least that's the impression that the cheerleaders for UN give. What these cheerleaders forgot to tell us was that Pakistan gets to pick and choose the criteria for 'ownership'. Wonder why, then Pakistanis whine for plebiscite?



Or we could let the Kashmiris decide the issue of who 'owns' them.
What a concept!



toxic_pus said:


> Oh well, thats Pakistan for us.



Denying the right of self-determination to the Kashmiris.
That's 'democratic' India for you.



toxic_pus said:


> Wasn't aware of any dispute, where, what the parties to the dispute say, 'don't matter.'



It "doesn't matter" in the sense that it's predictable.
And more importantly, the real voice that _should_ matter should be the Kashmiris themselves, not India or Pakistan.


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## toxic_pus

Developereo said:


> Or we could let the Kashmiris decide the issue of who 'owns' them.
> What a concept!


Didn't take too long to move that goal post. Did it now. 

First you claimed that _Pakistan got to decide_ its ownership on its share of the pie. Now you are claiming that _Kashmiris should decide_ that issue. 

Decide which line of argument you want to pursue. If it is the first one, then Kashmirs don't get to decide. If it is the later, then 'Azad' Kashmir is not yet Pakistan's.


> Denying the right of self-determination to the Kashmiris.
> That's 'democratic' India for you.


Did you say, democratic India? Well I guess, given the fact, that UN requires each party to be responsible for the administration of their individual part of Kashmir, India does give the Kashmiris the right to administer themselves. Thats democratic India for you.

As with Kashmiris right of self-determination, well, you seem to be undecided if it is at all necessary. It would seem that if 'Azad' Kashmir, as well as Northern areas can belong to Pakistan, or that teeny tiny piece of Kashmir can belong to China, then it is not necessary at all. 


> It "doesn't matter" in the sense that it's predictable.
> And more importantly, the real voice that _should_ matter should be the Kashmiris themselves, not India or Pakistan.


You sure thats how Northern areas and 'Azad' Kashmir became Pakistan's. I am not so sure though.

Besides, if thats how it '_should_' be, then basically you defeat your own country's stance and actually rally around mine.


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## Developereo

toxic_pus said:


> Didn't take too long to move that goal post. Did it now.
> 
> First you claimed that _Pakistan got to decide_ its ownership on its share of the pie. Now you are claiming that _Kashmiris should decide_ that issue.



Please show me where I said that Pakistan should decide the Kashmiris' future.

I have always maintained that Kashmiris should decide their own future. A right demanded by the UN resolution and denied them by India.

The rest of your post is basically rehashing your unsubstantiated claim above.


----------



## toxic_pus

Developereo said:


> Please show me where I said that Pakistan should decide the Kashmiris' future.
> 
> I have always maintained that Kashmiris should decide their own future. A right demanded by the UN resolution and denied them by India.
> 
> The rest of your post is basically rehashing your unsubstantiated claim above.


Ask and ye shall receive.

Sure, you didn't say 'Pakistan _should_ decide the Kashmiris' future'. But you sure did imply that Pakistan _has decided_ on its part of Kashmir.


Developereo said:


> *Azad Kashmir is part of Pakistan*...


If it is so, then it certainly was decided by Pakistan and Pakistan alone, because surely it was not decided by Kashmiris.

Then you clarified that this decision was based on lack of '*comparable movement* in Azad Kashmir seeking independence from Pakistan'. That, lack of 'comparable movement' qualifies as a criteria for determining 'ownership', is your and only your proposition. Not of Kashmiris. 


Developereo said:


> toxic_pus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2. All dispute regarding 'Azad' Kashmir has vanished into thin air, courtesy some mysterious Djinn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Courtesy of the fact that, compared to IOK, there is no comparable movement in Azad Kashmir seeking independence from Pakistan. Pakistan doesn't need to position 600,000 soldiers to quash any indepedence movement.
Click to expand...

My case rests.

My previous experience tells me, you are now going to play the semantics game, something in the line of, '...but hey, I meant this, not that'

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## PAFAce

I read somewhere here that during partition, Kashmiris _chose _to be with India. Now something like that really puts all your claims into perspective. I wouldn't be surprised if tomorrow you claim the Palestinians _want _Israeli settlements on their land, or that they _want _to live like prisoners in their own land. The Kashmir issue is as plain as the Palestine issue, though, thankfully for the Kashmiris, they have a country beside them to ensure nothing like the Gaza operation in 2008 ever happens there. There will always be people who defend the oppressors, Israel has massive support in the US, but to the neutral eye, it's a no contest. Justice, InshAllah, will be served eventually. As much you'd like to, history dictates that you can't occupy that land forever unless, somehow, you can win over the majority of the populace. You won't ever do that without giving them what the demand. So its a no-win for you.



vsdoc said:


> Wow! Nice to see some rustic Punjabi behind those mind numbing UN resolutions!
> 
> Of course we all know whose tatte vanished where and when ..... or were they congenitally undescended to start with?
> 
> Cheers, Doc


Lol. Why so interested in our tattes, doc?

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## Seadog1

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The residents of British India also voted in elections under the British Raj.
> 
> At a basic level people want governance.
> 
> Elections reflect their desires in terms of how they wish to be governed, a plebsicite would reflect their desire of which nation they owe allegiance to.



I just cant see India allowing the nonmuslims even if they are minority be subject Blasphemy laws where they can be excuted if they say something agains Islam or the Quran or the women to go to prison for 5 year according to Pakistan Laws if they are raped and they cant get 4 Muslims Men to testife to the rape....I sure would not want Kashmir being part of Pakistan,, India is bad enough.


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## Halaku Khan

PAFAce said:


> The Kashmir issue is as plain as the Palestine issue, though, thankfully for the Kashmiris, they have a country beside them to ensure nothing like the Gaza operation in 2008 ever happens there.



Operations far worse than Gaza happened in East Pakistan and Balochistan.


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## Halaku Khan

Imran2006g said:


> Wah. Wonder why u raise the slogan "Kashmir hamara hai" if you dont give a damn about them. Thank you for putting the Indian sentiment towards Kashmiris in a open forum



One loose comment by a misguided individual does not become the "Indian sentiment".


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## irfan wazir

mother fuckers indians me from waziristan if u dare to attack pakistan pathan will fight with u.like tribals capture kashmir from u........


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## StingRoy

You be careful with ur language irfan wazir... post reported


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## vsdoc

PAFAce said:


> Lol. Why so interested in our tattes, doc?



he he .... not your tatte buddy .... I have enough trouble in real life controlling my own, even at what is generally considered to be a responsible sober age.

But I quite liked AM's "tattay vanish" descent from his usually severe poper stiff upper lip stance ..... makes him more human! 

Also shows slight regional differences in colloquilaisms. Here we say "tatte jaam" ..... as also "gote" when referring to their sudden ascent into mouth.

Par woh sab to theek hai PAFace ..... on the topic of tatte, one absolute truth would no doubt not not have escaped you ..... or AM either .....

Aur woh yeh ki ..... 

Tatte bhale hi kitne bade kyun na ho jayein,

Aukat to unki l...e ke neeche hi hoti hai.

Khuda hafiz! 

Cheers, Doc


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## TaimiKhan

Seadog1 said:


> I just cant see India allowing the nonmuslims even if they are minority be subject Blasphemy laws where they can be excuted if they say something agains Islam or the Quran or the women to go to prison for 5 year according to Pakistan Laws if they are raped and they cant get 4 Muslims Men to testife to the rape....I sure would not want Kashmir&#8217; being part of Pakistan,, India is bad enough.



Your needle is stuck just at one point, can you think and post something out of the box ? Taking few exceptional incidents and generalizing on whole Pakistan or on Islam is not the way.

You will find much worse incidents then the ones you are referring on every thread in present and past associated with different religions of the world and happening in different countries, even we see worse incidents in the so called developed and civilized countries and nations. 

And if you have no knowledge of Islam and the laws given, then poking your nose in religion related discussions is not a proper thing. 

Instead of ranting about these exceptional incidents and generalizing it, it would be better if you study Islam (specially if you are a Muslim) and know about the real solution of the issues you are referring to provided by Qur'an and Sunnah.

Any action done by religious extremist after twisting or doing the interpretation of Islamic laws for their own use does not makes Islam and its laws draconian or human rights abuses. 

And the people of Kashmir know all these things, they prefer being with Pakistan rather then serve under occupation and going though daily Indian atrocities which are many times more brutal then the ones you keep referring everywhere.


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## TaimiKhan

Halaku Khan said:


> Operations far worse than Gaza happened in East Pakistan and Balochistan.



Instead of a inflammatory troll kind one liner, some facts & figures would be good to support your theory.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Seadog1 said:


> I just cant see India allowing the nonmuslims even if they are minority be subject Blasphemy laws where they can be excuted if they say something agains Islam or the Quran or the women to go to prison for 5 year according to Pakistan Laws if they are raped and they cant get 4 Muslims Men to testife to the rape....I sure would not want Kashmir being part of Pakistan,, India is bad enough.



You are a little behind, and woefully uninformed about Pakistan for someone displaying a Pakistan origin flag (not that it really fools anyone given the content of your posts) - the laws discriminating against women were repealed as part of the Women's protection bill during Musharraf's time.

The Blasphemy laws have been abused, and would have been repealed as well were it not for the fact that Musharraf needed the religious parties coalition to get other issues taken care of (I think they were amended to make it much harder to register Blasphemy cases, though I could be wrong) and even now there is a vigorous national and political discourse over them. They too shall be modified or repealed.

So the 'concerns' you suggest are invalid, and in any case, a majority of the residents of Kashmir should not be held hostage to the irrational fears of a minority.

If the majority of the Kashmiris wish to be a part of Pakistan, they should be able to do so - the UNSC resolutions promised them the right to decide their fate, and it was accepted by the Indian government, Pakistan and the world.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Halaku Khan said:


> Operations far worse than Gaza happened in East Pakistan and Balochistan.



Or like those in Indian Punjab and occupied Kashmir.

East Pakistan (about fifty thousand dead from both sides) would likely not have happened had Indian supported terrorists not gone on a rampage murdering, raping and pillaging the families (women and children) of West Pakistanis (troops and civilians), Biharis and East Pakistanis who were believed to be 'collaborating' with the West Pakistanis.

The degree of violence and bloodshed that occurred meant that the State had to crackdown - it is unfortunate that atrocities (even if nowhere close to those claimed by Indians and some others) occurred with that crackdown, and for that the blame falls in the military leadership at the time.


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## Captain03

azad kashmir is really azad
i was there this summer and i did not see any restrictions on anyone
i went to both the city and towns and did not see any objection or protest what so ever


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## Nemesis

None of you, and i mean none of you have countered the arguments made in the opening thread. Instead, you all have tried to deflect the argument by highlighting the situation in Jammu and Kashmir. Sorry, but there are already a million threads on India's "oppression" of Kashmir. This is about the so called Azad Kashmir. 

Please answer the charges made on the opening thread -

Is it not true that the Pakistani establishment handpicks the PM of Kashmir? That the Parliament of Pakistan can dismiss any law made by the Legislative assembly of Azad Kashmir? That the head of the Azad Kashmir council is actually the President of Pakistan and not the Prime Minister of Azad Kashmir? That the Mangla Dam accounts for over 65&#37; of Pakistan's electricity needs and yet Azad Kashmir receives less than negligible returns? That the Pakistani government is forcefully relocating Afghans to Azad Kashmir and thereby altering the demographics of the area?

Comparing this to the Indian state of Jammu & Kashmir, are you people aware that no resident of any other Indian state can own land or reside in Jammu and Kashmir? That the Legislative assembly has the power to over-rule any law made by the Indian Parliament? That J&K has one of the biggest budgets (in comparison to number of people residing in the state) in India? 

These are important questions. Since our Pakistani members keep reminding us, let us also remind them that Azad Kashmir is also disputed territory.



> You claim to know how Kashmiris really feel, but then admit you haven't met any Kashmiris or been there too many times Kashmir (probably went to some BSF garrison town at that). I have, to Azad Kashmir. I have never met a single Kashmiri that was pro-India and anti-Pakistan, either from Azad Kashmir or Indian Occupied Kashmir, and I have met more than most of you combined.



So you claim to have met more Kashmiri's than most of us combined? This despite the fact that since we claim the state as our own and consider it our territory, we in all probability would have had far greater interaction with Kashmiris than a Pakistani. 

I've met a lot of Kashmir's, not only Muslims but Hindus as well. Buddhists too, if we count Ladhakh (and somehow no one seems to remember Ladhakh). While some of them, especially the Kashmiri University crowd, want to be separate from India. None of them wish to be part of Pakistan. They want independence from both.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Nemesis said:


> None of you, and i mean none of you have countered the arguments made in the opening thread. Instead, you all have tried to deflect the argument by highlighting the situation in Jammu and Kashmir. Sorry, but there are already a million threads on India's "oppression" of Kashmir. This is about the so called Azad Kashmir.
> 
> Please answer the charges made on the opening thread -
> 
> Is it not true that the Pakistani establishment handpicks the PM of Kashmir? That the Parliament of Pakistan can dismiss any law made by the Legislative assembly of Azad Kashmir? That the head of the Azad Kashmir council is actually the President of Pakistan and not the Prime Minister of Azad Kashmir? That the Mangla Dam accounts for over 65% of Pakistan's electricity needs and yet Azad Kashmir receives less than negligible returns? That the Pakistani government is forcefully relocating Afghans to Azad Kashmir and thereby altering the demographics of the area?
> 
> Comparing this to the Indian state of Jammu & Kashmir, are you people aware that no resident of any other Indian state can own land or reside in Jammu and Kashmir? That the Legislative assembly has the power to over-rule any law made by the Indian Parliament? That J&K has one of the biggest budgets (in comparison to number of people residing in the state) in India?
> 
> These are important questions. Since our Pakistani members keep reminding us, let us also remind them that Azad Kashmir is also disputed territory.



1. Azad Kashmir President is elected by the Azad Jammu and Kashmir Legislative Assembly

*"MUZAFFARABAD (AJK): Candidate of Muslim Conference Raja Zulqarnain Khan was elected as the new President of Azad Kashmir on Thursday.

The polling started this morning in Muzaffarabad at admin department of the AJK Assembly wherein Raja Zulqarnain Khan bagged 40 votes to win while Peoples Party candidate got only eight votes.

Members of Azad Jammu and Kashmir Legislative Assembly as well as Kashmir Council took part in polling which lasted till 3 Oclock in the afternoon."*

Pakistan Times | Top Story: Raja Zulqarnain elected new President of Azad Kashmir

2. Azad Kashmir Prime Minister is elected by the Azad Jammu and Kashmir Legislative Assembly.

*"MUZAFFARABAD: Raja Mohammad Farooq Haider was sworn in as the 9th prime minister of Azad Jammu and Kashmir here on Thursday after the Legislative Assembly elected him as leader of the house by a clear majority. The oath was administered by AJK President Raja Zulqarnain Khan at the Presidents House."*

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Farooq Haider elected AJK prime minister

3. I am not aware of the Pakistani parliament being able to dismiss any law in Azad Kashmir, perhaps you can elaborate on that.

4. Azad Kashmir does get royalties from Mangla and will get more from other upcoming hydel projects. Do they get too little? That is subjective, based on whatever negotiations were held between the AK and Pakistani administrations, and not necessarily different than the stingy relationship between the Federation and the provinces, where the Federal government wants to give as little as necessary to the provinces. That may change with the most recent NFC award being negotiated, and that may also reflect upon the royalties AK and G-B receive/will receive.

5. I am unaware of 'forceful relocation of Afghans' to AK - the demographic content of the population of AK continues to largely reflect the original composition.

There were some stories of Zia settling families from outside G-B in the region, that even caused riots, but that appears to have been a short lived experiment and the demographic composition of G-B too remains close to the original as much as one can tell.

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## Nemesis

Appreciate the response AM. 



> 1. Azad Kashmir President is elected by the Azad Jammu and Kashmir Legislative Assembly
> 
> "MUZAFFARABAD (AJK): Candidate of Muslim Conference Raja Zulqarnain Khan was elected as the new President of Azad Kashmir on Thursday.
> 
> The polling started this morning in Muzaffarabad at admin department of the AJK Assembly wherein Raja Zulqarnain Khan bagged 40 votes to win while People&#8217;s Party candidate got only eight votes.
> 
> Members of Azad Jammu and Kashmir Legislative Assembly as well as Kashmir Council took part in polling which lasted till 3 O&#8217;clock in the afternoon."
> 
> Pakistan Times | Top Story: Raja Zulqarnain elected new President of Azad Kashmir
> 
> 2. Azad Kashmir Prime Minister is elected by the Azad Jammu and Kashmir Legislative Assembly.
> 
> "MUZAFFARABAD: Raja Mohammad Farooq Haider was sworn in as the 9th prime minister of Azad Jammu and Kashmir here on Thursday after the Legislative Assembly elected him as leader of the house by a clear majority. The oath was administered by AJK President Raja Zulqarnain Khan at the President&#8217;s House."
> 
> DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Farooq Haider elected AJK prime minister



Is it not written in the constitution of Azad Kashmir that those contesting elections have to sign a declaration affirming AKs accession to Pakistan? 



> *Part 2 of Section 7 of the Constitution states: No person or political party in Azad Jammu and Kashmir shall be permitted to propagate against, or take part in activities prejudicial or detrimental to, the ideology of the States accession to Pakistan.
> 
> Under Section 5(2) (vii) of the Legislative Assembly Election Ordinance 1970, a person would be disqualified for propagating any opinion or action in any manner prejudicial to the ideology of Pakistan, the ideology of AK's accession to Pakistan, or the sovereignty and integrity of Pakistan. The same caveat applies to anyone who defames or brings into ridicule the judiciary of AJK, of Pakistan, or the Armed Forces of Pakistan.*





> 3. I am not aware of the Pakistani parliament being able to dismiss any law in Azad Kashmir, perhaps you can elaborate on that.



The opening article of the thread implies that the President of Pakistan has the power to dismiss the Prime Minister and President of AK. Indeed, this has happened a few times. 



> *In 1991, AK's Prime Minister, Mumtaz Rathore was dismissed, arrested and flown by helicopter to a Pakistani prison in 1991. In the 1996 elections in AK, parties and candidates who wished to participate on the platform of independence and refused to sign the declaration calling AKs accession to Pakistan an article of faith, were denied the right to field candidates. The oath of office for the President, PM, Minister, Speaker, MLA or MLC of AK clearly includes the following clause: That I will remain loyal to the country (Pakistan)and the cause of accession of the state of Jammu and Kashmir to Pakistan.*




Moreover, the budget and other important state matters are under the control of the AK council, headed not by either the President or Prime Minister of AK but by the President of Pakistan. However, both President and PM of AK are members. 



> I am unaware of 'forceful relocation of Afghans' to AK - the demographic content of the population of AK continues to largely reflect the original composition.



The allegation is asserted by the opening article on the thread. That of Afghan refugees being moved to AK.

However, as India considers Gigit and the Northern areas as part of J&K, the demographic shift has been seen mostly in these areas. According to one report, about 40&#37; of Gilgit's population is made up of people outside the state. 

Source - "Azad Kashmir" and "Northern Territories" or Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (***)?

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## MarkTheTruth

response to the original writeup.

The writer may also noticed the number of Kashmiris in UK and may also noticed that most of them from Azad Kashmir. The Kashmiris from occupied Kashmir are far less than how many they should be. As the population of Occupied Kashmir AKA Indian held Kashmir is far more than Azad Kashmir. Why is that? Is that because the Kashmiris in Occupied Kashmir are enjoying a healthy and wealthy life? Is that because it is Pak army which is raping Kashmiri women and not Indian army? Is it because it is Pak government looting resources of Kashmir and not Indian gov? Is it because it is Pakistan, which landed more than 6,00,000 army in Kashmir and not India?

The Kashmiris in foreign countries are unitly struggling for the right of self determination. Hmmm. If fake indian writers and their stupid government thinkt hat Kashmiri people love them so much than why you do not give them the right of self determination and shut their mouths? Why you have a need to plant 600 K military their? Did you have borders with Pakistan or China, only in Kashmir?

This write up is good piece of BS and is totally a wastage of time to read.


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## Iggy

*Nice BS, but still BS, its actually other way around, IA personals are quite eager to "present" themselves as freedom fighters and defame their name, little of the guard but reports are that BRAVE COL PROHIT was learning Arabic for "soul satisfaction", beside that you are telling the world that in the presence of 7 hundred thousand troops some "pretenders" are running around wearing official uniforms and doing what you claimed they did, just think about it for a moment, enough evidence has already been provided.[/QUOTE]*

Mate one of your freedom fighter was killed by a mere lady with her axe.I dont called it as a so called love to freedom fighters and also you can see many villagers getting defense training from the Army..Is this because they had love for the so called freedom fighters??The so called freedom fighters are doing all kind of cruelties around there and no one is bothered to collect data about it..Instead living in a denial saying that i was done by our ARMY to defame the freedom fighters..

And one more question what are the people from other countries doing there?Brainwashing them in the name of religion and sending them to kill innocent people is not freedom fighting in my dictionary..
I am not saying that our Army men are saints but like i posted in some other thread there was a picture posted here about some Kashmiries celebrating Independence day of Pakistan..In some of the snaps there were small children also present..Do you think if our Army was that cruel they will dare to celebrate this in public..and even if they do they will risk their childrens life for this??


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## EjazR

NC leader supports pre-1953 status to J-K

SRINAGAR:A senior National Conference leader today said the restoration of pre-1953 position to Jammu and Kashmir would prove foundation for the resolution of the Kashmir issue, a couple of days after a prominent Sikh leader made similar suggestions.

"Every suggestion for resolution of Kashmir issue passes through restoration of 1953 position to the state," senior NC leader and uncle of Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, Sheikh Mustafa Kamal said, commenting on the statement of President of Shiromani Akali Dal (Amritsar) Simaranjit Singh Mann.

Mann had yesterday advised separatists not to enter into dialogue with New Delhi unless the 1953 position was restored to the state.

On August 9,1953 Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah was deposed of the prime ministership and arrested in connection with Kashmir conspiracy case. Before that, the state had its own Prime Minister and Sader-e-Riyasat, and the Central Government had control only over defence, communication and currency.

Kamal said it was the duty of all parties which will participate in the proposed talks with the Centre that they should "not only talk for restoration of 1953 position but also take practical measures to attain this position in its original shape.


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## UnitedPak

Moorkh said:


> both india and pakistan got their independence from the british through non violent means.
> 
> if the kashmiri will for independence is so strong they can do so the same way.
> 
> violence can not be condoned at all
> it can not be condoned even if it is in response to violence.
> prove yourself better by not being dragged down to the level of the violence perpetuators



Kashmiris were promised a referendum. They peacefully waited for 40 years before a rigged election triggered violent uprisings.

For most Indian members the dispute is simply about clinging on to a piece of land for the sake of their egos. At least they recognise this as being an occupation. Kashmir is regarded as something to be tied to India.

Its a shame many Indians dont know about Junagadh or Hyderabad. If they did, we would hear very few rants about Maharajah Hari Singh acceding to India.


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## third eye

UnitedPak said:


> Kashmiris were promised a referendum. They peacefully waited for 40 years before a rigged election triggered violent uprisings.
> 
> For most Indian members the dispute is simply about clinging on to a piece of land for the sake of their egos. At least they recognise this as being an occupation. Kashmir is regarded as something to be tied to India.
> 
> Its a shame many Indians dont know about Junagadh or Hyderabad. If they did, we would hear very few rants about Maharajah Hari Singh acceding to India.



As regards Jungadh & Hyd, India learnt a lesson from Pk who sent in troops into J&K ASAP even before the UN resolutions were even thought of. India simply replicated what Pk did.

There is no ego issue as far as India & J&K is concerned. Its simply a case of a state that acceded to India & shall stay that way forever.

Which area are we talking of for refrendum ? The part acceded to China by Pk, Aksai Chin which is held by China ? Gilgit , Skadru ?

Things have changed beyond recognition, In any case the UN resolution was / is not enforceable.


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## AHMED85

Bill Longley said:


> *the reasons i think are
> 
> 1] india is an imperial colonial power, just look at whats happening in northeast,jharkand and other maoist infected areas.
> 
> 2] india is an evil empire ,in disguise of seculerism, govt of india is helping fanatic terror groups like shivsina,dharmasina,rss etc to eliminate all the minorities and make inda a hindu rashtra. one should remember the present govt of congress known to be a SECULER PARTY WAS THE REASON FOR DEHLI MASSACE AND OPERATION BLUE STAR
> 
> 3] any concession to kashmir means ,indians have to give the same to other more than 14 states who are fighting for their God gifted right. so KASHMIRIS SHOULD FORGET INDEPENDENCE BECAUSE THEIR INDEPENDENCE MEANS DISINTEGRATION OF INDIA EMPIRE.
> 
> 4] the attitude of indians clearly REFLECTS THAT THEY ARE NOT INTRESTED IN KASHMIRI PPL AND THEY CAN ARRANGE A NEW GENOCIDE TO ELEMINATE ALL MUSLIM KASHMIRIES SO THAT NO ONE SHOWS DISSENT. FROM INDIAN VIEW POINT KASHMIRI LAND IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE POOR MUSLIM INHABITANTS.
> 
> 5] the indian GOVT THINKS IT IS A BIG MARKET AND GREAT POWERS HAVE GREAT INTREST IN ITS MARKET. SO THEY CAN EASILY GET AWAY FROM GENOCIDE OF KASHMIRIES AND GROSS HUMAN RIGHT ABUSES AGAINST POPULATION.
> 
> 6.] THE KASHMIR FREEDOM STRUGGLE HAS CAUSED GREAT LOSSES TO INDIAN EMPIRE. INDIAN ARMY AND PARAMILITARIES ARE TURNING MENTAL CASES. ACCORDING TO INDIAN CHEIF 100 SOLDIERS ON THE AVERAGE COMMIT SUSIDE EVERY YEAR AND 250 ALONE COMMITED SUSIDE OR KILLED THEIR FELLOWS IN 2005. SIMILARLY DUE TO MENTAL BANKRUPSY INDIANS ARE ACQUISEING NEIGHBORS EVEN SPREADING AIDS IN THE RANKS JUST TO HIDE THE SHAME AND DISHONOR OF THEIR ARMIES ACTS AND CONDUCTS.THERE FORE ITS QUITE VISIBLE THAT INDIA A HOLLOW NUCLEAR POWER WILL NEVER GIVE KASHMIRIS WHAT THEY WANT. IT WILL ELIMINATE THEM ALL IF THEY KEEP ON ASKING FREEDOM BUT WILL NEVER COMPLY WITH WISHES OF REPRESSED PPL
> 
> india is illegalay occuping kashmir. it want to occupy azad kashmir and our northern areas also so that
> 1] it could have link to central asia, remember the wakhan belt[afghanistan] which is only few km between us and cental asia
> 
> 2] india want to cut the link between us and china
> 
> its a realist world where strategic and national intrest are more precious than low of morality or religon.
> 
> pro peace propoganda by indians is only a time gaining and diverting tactics.
> 
> do you think if we agree on loc as permanent boarder. peace will prevail and kashmir issue will end?????????????
> 
> no it will never
> read the indian history read how indians occupied independent states of sikkim, jnagarh, hyderabad etc.
> 
> the problem with us is that although we have 1000 year of experence we still fail to understand enemies thought process and how he acts*





my dear i stand with you in this regard 
so India will leave Kashmir for his stability in earth 
Indian peace and i think the whole Asian peace require Kashmir revolution and Kashmir is integral part of Pakistan so all Pakistan youth is solders for Kashmir 
InshahAllah Kashmir escape from Indian cruel ambition of dominant


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## Developereo

toxic_pus said:


> Ask and ye shall receive.
> 
> Sure, you didn't say 'Pakistan _should_ decide the Kashmiris' future'. But you sure did imply that Pakistan _has decided_ on its part of Kashmir.
> 
> If it is so, then it certainly was decided by Pakistan and Pakistan alone, because surely it was not decided by Kashmiris.
> 
> Then you clarified that this decision was based on lack of '*comparable movement* in Azad Kashmir seeking independence from Pakistan'. That, lack of 'comparable movement' qualifies as a criteria for determining 'ownership', is your and only your proposition. Not of Kashmiris.



Wrong.

Pathetic attempt to twist words to salvage your untenable position.

There has never been any conflict within Azad Kashmir. Pakistan doesn't need to position 600,000 troops to brutally suppress the local population. To even begin to compare Azad Kashmir with Indian Occupied Kashmir is laughable.

If the people of Azad Kashmir demand a plebiscite and an option to secede from Pakistan, then Pakistan should honor that request. Until then, your attempt at sophistry won't work.



toxic_pus said:


> My case rests.



Not much of a case. Only an evasive reply to duck the real issue of India's denial to Kashmiris of their right to self-determination.



toxic_pus said:


> My previous experience tells me, you are now going to play the semantics game, something in the line of, '...but hey, I meant this, not that'



My meaning is crytal clear. It is you who seems to have trouble sticking with the issue and create diversions when unable to respond to the matter at hand.


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## EjazR

@Developereo

There were no "600,000" troops (a combination of IA, para military and local police) before '89. They are needed mainly because of a full fledged proxy war which has almost come to an end. The final stage would be dismantling and arresting members of the UJC based in muzaffarabad that is a loose 'network of networks' of various kashmir centric groups. 

I am completely against IA or even para military being situated in civilian areas, but the post 89 situation could not be handled by the local police just like the tribal and SWAT areas could not be countered by the local police there. The PA is not involved in widespread "suppressing" of population. Although Taliban sympathizers may claim otherwise.

You assume that GoP will willingly cede azad kashmir and the newly named Gilgit-Baltistan province when evidence is to the contrary. From the beginning it was Pakistan that denied the independence option in the UN council resolution, not India. And when the JKLF which was leading the secular pro-Independence struggle was dominant in the 90s, it was Pakistani based pseudo-Islamic militant groups that assassinated most of their leaders along with pro-Indian Kashmiris.


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## Developereo

EjazR said:


> You assume that GoP will willingly cede azad kashmir and the newly named Gilgit-Baltistan province when evidence is to the contrary. From the beginning it was Pakistan that denied the independence option in the UN council resolution, not India. And when the JKLF which was leading the secular pro-Independence struggle was dominant in the 90s, it was Pakistani based pseudo-Islamic militant groups that assassinated most of their leaders along with pro-Indian Kashmiris.



India also shares much of the blame by its brutal policies in IOK.

In any case, even assuming all of what you say is correct, and I am not conceding anything, I want to look forward to the future.

If there is the possibility of resolving Kashmir according to a fair, trilaterally (Pak,India,UN) monitored Kashmiri plebiscite, then both India and Pakistan should honor it. It would finally solve the major hurdle in Pakistan/India relations and both countries will benefit from the resulting detente.

Of course, if they chose independence, it is quite likely that Kashmir will immediately become a proxy battleground like Afghanistan, but at least they will be nominally free. True freedom can also come in time.


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## afriend

Leh, October 18


The Ladakh Union Territory Front (LUTF), a regional formation and ruling party of Ladakh Autonomous Hill Development Council (LAHDC), Leh, welcoming the recent statement of the Union Home Minister P Chidambaram during his visit to the Kashmir valley on October 14, has reiterated its demand UT for Ladakh. 




Chidambaram during his visit to the state had said the Union government is working on the solution of Kashmir, which would be acceptable to the people in the state. In a press statement, LUTF general-secretary T Wangdus stated that people of Ladakh have been demanding UT status for Ladakh ever since the Indias Independence and would not accept any other plan of ceding with the Kashmir valley.




TT

UT status for Ladakh sought


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## afriend

How hypocracitcal can one get, when people say they want plebiscite in kashmir, and at the same time support armed terrorism in kashmir and changed the demography of kashmir held by pakistan.


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## Developereo

afriend said:


> How hypocracitcal can one get, when people say they want plebiscite in kashmir, and at the same time support armed terrorism in kashmir and changed the demography of kashmir held by pakistan.



India and her Western minders call it 'armed terrorism'. Pakistan, and China it seems, consider it a freedom struggle against a brutal occupation regime.


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## afriend

Developereo said:


> India and her Western minders call it 'armed terrorism'. Pakistan, and China it seems, consider it a freedom struggle against a brutal occupation regime.



In whatever terms you put it, providing support to the so called freedom strugglers and advocating a free and fare plebiscite is hypocractical. Do you think india can bow to that? Infact no country can.


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## toxic_pus

Uh huh...'I said it, therefore I am right' gambit.


Developereo said:


> Wrong.
> 
> Pathetic attempt to twist words to salvage your untenable position.


Self-projection. Also please show me where I have 'twisted' words.


> There has *never been any conflict within Azad Kashmir*. Pakistan doesn't need to position 600,000 troops to brutally suppress the local population. To even begin to compare Azad Kashmir with Indian Occupied Kashmir is laughable.


So? 

Which document of UN says that 'lack of conflict' in Kashmir is to be considered as acquiescence by Kashmiris and hence no plebiscite would be required for that region of 'lack of conflict'? 


> *If the people of Azad Kashmir demand a plebiscite* and an option to secede from Pakistan, then Pakistan should honor that request.


Irrelevant. 

If a plebiscite is to happen in Kashmir, it will be as per UN mandate, which means the whole of Kashmir, including so called 'Azad' Kashmir, Northern areas and the China occupied Kashmir, would have to go for it. And that too, only after Kashmir has been returned to the pre-'47 intrusion situation.


> Until then, your attempt at sophistry won't work.


Self projection.


> Not much of a case. Only an evasive reply to duck the real issue of India's denial to Kashmiris of their right to self-determination.


Goal post shifting. My query and my subsequent replies revolved around Pakistan's position on 'Azad' Kashmir, unrelated to India's stand on Kashmir.


> My meaning is crytal clear. It is you who seems to have trouble sticking with the issue and create diversions when unable to respond to the matter at hand.


Yeah right. Your self serving arguments are what they are - self serving.


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## Developereo

toxic_pus said:


> Goal post shifting. My query and my subsequent replies revolved around Pakistan's position on 'Azad' Kashmir, unrelated to India's stand on Kashmir.





The subject of the thread is China's visa rules on Indian occupied Kashmir. Hence the subject is very squarely focussed on Indian occupied Kashmir.

Your pathetic attempt to derail the thread as usual with irrelevancies didn't work this time. You can dance around the issue and reply to everything with 'you too' rofl but you aren't fooling anybody with your evasiveness.

Bottom line, China recognizes the disputed status of Kashmir and the fact that India is holding it down by brutal occupation.


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## Developereo

India upset: Correct maps of Pakistan & China from Beijing The Dawn

*Nov. 18 &#8211; Chinese computer maker Lenovo has fallen into a row over maps displaying China and surrounding regions installed as wallpaper on laptops given to the Indian government.*

On the computers, Aksai Chin, which India claims, is shown as part of China while part of Kashmir is depicted as being in Pakistan. The computers were distributed to India&#8217;s Income Tax Department rofl after Lenovo won a bid for supplying them. Around 10,000 laptops were supplied by Lenovo to offices across the country early this year with the entire process being routed through the office of the director of income tax in Delhi.

Lenovo said that the laptops were made in its Indian Pondicherry unit and that the software came from the United States. Lenovo have stated that the map depicts global time zones and not geographical or political boundaries. It also said that they were in the process of removing the wall papers considering the sensitivity involved. The Police have been called in as depicting certain parts of Kashmir as being in Pakistan is a criminal offense in India. 

Lenovo said that time zones in the wallpaper adhere to conventionally accepted and commonly found time zone borders and they correspond to the time zone markings at the bottom of the map. However, according to India&#8217;s investigating Police, &#8220;India falls under a single time zone and so this explanation is not plausible&#8221;

According to the company, it held a service camp in April at various income tax offices where time zone wallpapers were replaced with other conventional wallpapers. The company said it would replace the wall papers if there are more in circulation. A senior income tax official contested the claims and said, &#8220;We are not aware of such camps. In Mumbai at least the company has not approached us.&#8221;

While the disputes between India and China over the territories concerned go back some time, this incident seems more laughable than others. It does demonstrate both an embarrassing lack of due diligence on behalf of the Indian purchasing department and an alarming, if mischievous demonstration of political interference in a globally traded business by the Chinese. Lenovo Laptops Show Indian-Claimed Territory as Chinese

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## Jatt Boy

ROFL 

Anyways we will try to help Kashmir people as much we can. Whereas Pakistan gifted 12000+ sq. km of the Kashmiri territory to China without asking permission from Kashmiries. So much for love of Kashmir one should appreciate.  . Vajpayee asked Musharraf: By whose authority did Pakistan gift a part of Kashmir to China ?

We are not ashamed but proud of it. We Indians never compromised with integrity of J&K and gifted it like a piece of cake.

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## Awesome

Jatt Boy said:


> ROFL
> 
> Anyways we will try to help Kashmir people as much we can. Whereas Pakistan gifted 12000+ sq. km of the Kashmiri territory to China without asking permission from Kashmiries. So much for love of Kashmir one should appreciate.  . Vajpayee asked Musharraf: By whose authority did Pakistan gift a part of Kashmir to China ?
> 
> We are not ashamed but proud of it. We Indians never compromised with integrity of J&K and gifted it like a piece of cake.


Stop whining...


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## toxic_pus

Developereo said:


> The subject of the thread is China's visa rules on Indian occupied Kashmir. Hence the subject is very squarely focussed on Indian occupied Kashmir.
> 
> Your pathetic attempt to derail the thread as usual with irrelevancies didn't work this time. You can dance around the issue and reply to everything with 'you too' rofl but you aren't fooling anybody with your evasiveness.
> 
> Bottom line, China recognizes the disputed status of Kashmir and the fact that India is holding it down by brutal occupation.


I see, you can't explain why 'Azad' Kashmir 'belongs' to Pakistan, as per your claim, when there has never been a plebiscite, which, as the cheerleaders for plebiscite would have us believe, is the 'only' solution. 

Since, you are a smarty pant, you don't realize that Pakistan doesn't actually claim to own 'Azad' Kashmir, in the same way as it claims Northern areas. Which also exposes the hypocrisy of your 'taller than mountains deeper than ocean' friend, and the willful ignorance that you prefer to bask in. Its catch 22 for you.

You do know, don't you, what they call the chaps who are the only ones laughing at their own jokes. 

Bottom line, you couldn't substantiate your claim. As usual.

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## mrwarrior006

who cares india shows kashmir as part of india and china its and tis trend will continue. Nothing new in this tats wy its called disputed region ,isnt it?


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## Developereo

toxic_pus said:


> I see, you can't explain why 'Azad' Kashmir 'belongs' to Pakistan, as per your claim, when there has never been a plebiscite, which, as the cheerleaders for plebiscite would have us believe, is the 'only' solution.



The people of Azad Kashmir are not clamoring for a plebiscite. The people held hostage in IOK are.



toxic_pus said:


> You do know, don't you, what they call the chaps who are the only ones laughing at their own jokes.



One billion Chinese are laughing with me.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/39650-gotta-love-chinese.html

Guess who they are laughing at!


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## toxic_pus

Developereo said:


> The people of Azad Kashmir are not clamoring for a plebiscite. The people held hostage in IOK are.


To repeat myself

'Irrelevant.

If a plebiscite is to happen in Kashmir, it will be as per UN mandate, which means the whole of Kashmir, including so called 'Azad' Kashmir, Northern areas and the China occupied Kashmir, would have to go for it. And that too, only after Kashmir has been returned to the pre-'47 intrusion situation.'


> One billion Chinese are laughing with me.
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/39650-gotta-love-chinese.html
> 
> Guess who they are laughing at!


Not really. Its called, scratch my back, I'll scratch yours, the kind you see among a specific species of mammals.


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## Developereo

toxic_pus said:


> If a plebiscite is to happen in Kashmir, it will be as per UN mandate, which means the whole of Kashmir, including so called 'Azad' Kashmir, Northern areas and the China occupied Kashmir, would have to go for it. And that too, only after Kashmir has been returned to the pre-'47 intrusion situation.'



Except that India is adamantly opposed to the very idea of plebiscite and has been delaying it for all these decades. It is yet another exercise in sophistry by you guys. Pakistan has always welcomed UN oversight of a full plebiscite. If India was serious about holding a plebiscite it would have withdrawn its forces and cooperated with Pakistan (and China) about organizing said plebiscite in Kashmir, all of it, no problem...

In any case, like all Kashmir discussion, this one is not going anywhere. This will be my final post on this matter in this thread. I'll let you have the last word.



toxic_pus said:


> Not really. Its called, scratch my back, I'll scratch yours, the kind you see among a specific species of mammals.



Still smarting, eh? 
Ooooh. I didn't realize it would sting you that badly...
No worries.


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## Spring Onion

You can imagine a simple map can upset Indian stomach . what would be the situation once we get rid of this mess in Pakistan and get a solid policy on Kashmir


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## Developereo

Jana said:


> You can imagine a simple map can upset Indian stomach . what would be the situation once we get rid of this mess in Pakistan and get a solid policy on Kashmir



I especially liked this part:

*The Police have been called in as depicting certain parts of Kashmir as being in Pakistan is a criminal offense in India.*


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## Trisonics

thanks for this funny article...had a good laugh. Hahahha China and Super power? This is so childish..like a kid would scribble in your notes if you irritated him? I still cant stop laughing ... tell you what ..I agree.. you gotta love the Chinese...

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## toxic_pus

Developereo said:


> Except that India is adamantly opposed to the very idea of plebiscite and has been delaying it for all these decades. It is yet another exercise in sophistry by you guys. Pakistan has always welcomed UN oversight of a full plebiscite. If India was serious about holding a plebiscite it would have withdrawn its forces and cooperated with Pakistan (and China) about organizing said plebiscite in Kashmir, all of it, no problem...


Strawman.

Your argument was that 'Azad' Kashmir belongs to Pakistan, merely because of lack of any 'comparable movement' - a criteria of your own making - and not because of any so called 'plebiscite'. The whys, whens, hows of what India does or doesn't in Kashmir, or regarding holding of plebiscite, are all irrelevant. 

Your constant rabble rousing for 'plebiscite' in Kashmir is turned to joke by your ridiculous criteria. 


> In any case, like all Kashmir discussion, this one is not going anywhere. This will be my final post on this matter in this thread. I'll let you have the last word.


Wise decision.


> Still smarting, eh?
> Ooooh. I didn't realize it would sting you that badly...
> No worries.


'Animal Planet' on Discovery channel, is one of my favourite programs not because it 'stings'.

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## pkd

Hurriyat dove welcomes China, US
Srinagar, Nov. 21: Hurriyat dove Mirwaiz Umar Farooq yesterday favoured a Chinese role in Kashmir at a time India has opposed a recent China-US statement about working together to promote South Asian peace.

In remarks likely to ruffle feathers in New Delhi, the Mirwaiz said China was a global power with a huge influence in the region.

China has a direct link to Kashmir because one part of it is under its direct control, which was given by Pakistan. We are talking of Aksai Chin and other areas, the Mirwaiz said.

He added that China was not party to the Kashmir dispute but it has stakes in peace in the South Asian region.

The chief of the moderate faction of the Hurriyat Conference, who favours a dialogue with the Centre, welcomed the China-US statement: It ushers good (news) for Kashmir.

His remarks came on a day the Centre flashed confusing signals about the Mirwaizs foreign travel plans, which include visits to Pakistan and then China at some unspecified date.

Yesterday morning, foreign minister S.M. Krishna had said: He is free to travel wherever he wants to.

Shortly after the Mirwaizs afternoon remarks, foreign secretary Nirupama Rao too said we havent stopped any Kashmiri leaders from travelling but appeared to imply that such visits could not take place on stapled visas.

New Delhi opposes Chinas new practice of issuing to travellers from Kashmir their visas on separate pieces of paper that are stapled to their passports.

He (the Mirwaiz) is free to travel. If you are asking the question in the context of the visa issue, then our views on the visa issue is well known. We are against our citizens being discriminated based on their domicile and ethnicity, Rao said, although it wasnt clear if she was reacting to the Mirwaizs remarks.

The Mirwaiz said he had an invitation from an NGO in China. Given an opportunity I will present the Hurriyats point of view in China, he said.

He criticised New Delhis approach on the stapled visas. Accept it or reject it, but Kashmir is an internally recognised dispute. Name any forum  the OIC (Organisation of the Islamic Conference), EU (European Union), the US  you will come to know that Kashmir is a dispute. So why is New Delhi not allowing Kashmiris to travel to China on stapled visas? You cant close doors to reality, he said.

He said he felt the international community had a responsibility to solve the Kashmir issue as it was not a border dispute or a religious dispute.

It is a political issue and needs political settlement. For that we want that the international community should step in.

His reference was to the joint statement issued during President Barack Obamas visit to Beijing, which expressed readiness to strengthen communication, dialogue and co-operation on issues related to South Asia and work together to promote peace, stability and development in that region.

The statement mentioned the need to improve India-Pakistan relations and evoked instantaneous opposition from India, which is against third-party intervention in its issues with Pakistan.

The Mirwaiz said this was the first time the US and China had issued a statement for a joint effort for peace in South Asia.

They will adopt a joint strategy and joint approach towards India and Pakistan vis-à-vis resolution of the Kashmir issue. The US has now realised that Kashmir is a core issue for bringing peace to South Asia. We welcome the approach of China and America regarding the Kashmir issue, he said.

Delhi recently announced the start of quiet diplomacy on Kashmir  apparently after the renewed American and Chinese interest in the state  bringing the Hurriyat and the Mirwaiz back under the spotlight.


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## BanglaBhoot

SRINAGAR, India, Nov 21 (Reuters) - China has a stake in peace in South Asia, and Kashmir in particular, as part of the disputed region is under Beijing's control, Kashmir's main separatist alliance said.

The mention of China's role in resolving the dispute and its control over a part of the Himalayan region -- the first by separatist leaders since a revolt against New Delhi broke out in 1989 -- could hurt chances of resuming peace talks with the government.

India rules 45 percent of Kashmir and the bulk of its more than 11 million population. Pakistan has about 35 percent of the territory and China controls the rest.

"It (China) has a direct link with Kashmir as certain parts of Kashmir, including Aksai Chin, are under its control," Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, chairman of the All Parties Hurriyat (Freedom) Conference, told thousands of Muslim worshippers late on Friday.

"I believe that China is not a party to the Kashmir conflict but it has stakes as far as peace in the region is concerned."

Farooq, also the chief priest of Kashmir, said he is planning to visit China soon.

"Hurriyat welcomes the approach adopted by China and America jointly in terms of addressing the issue of Kashmir in South Asia," he said.

He was referring to a joint statement issued by the United States and China after President Barack Obama met his Chinese counterpart Hu Jintao, which included a line of support for the improvement of India-Pakistan relations.

New Delhi said in response it does not need any external help to improve ties with neighbour Pakistan.

HURT PEACE TALKS?

With violence down in Kashmir in recent years, India is pulling out troops from the region and has initiated secret talks with separatist groups to come up with a solution, which could also be greater autonomy.

Experts said the latest Hurriyat comment will have an impact on the future of official peace talks, which broke down in 2006. Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh offered to resume talks last month during a visit to Kashmir.

"This is something that was not desirable and Mirwaiz's suggestion that China could play a role along with Pakistan on the Kashmir issue will never go down well with the government," Uday Bhaskar, a New Delhi-based strategic affairs expert, said.

"I am sure the Hurriyat's latest statement will irritate New Delhi further," said Noor Ahmed Baba, dean of the faculty of social science at the Kashmir University.

A clear government reaction was not immediately available.

"It is unfortunate for them (separatists) to say so. We are watching the situation closely," said one home ministry official, who was not authorised to speak to the media.

India and Pakistan, who claim the whole region, have fought two of their three wars over Kashmir, where tens of thousands of people have died in two decades of violence.

Ties between the two neighbours nosedived after last November's Mumbai attacks, in which 166 people were killed and New Delhi blamed Pakistan-based militants for the attacks. (Additional reporting by Bappa Majumdar in New Delhi; Editing by Sonya Hepinstall)


Kashmir separatists: China has stake in S.Asia peace | Reuters

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## RiazHaq

China is beginning to act more like a global superpower by playing an increasingly important role in its South Asian neighborhood, with growing interest in Afghanistan and Kashmir. 

The United States, as the reigning superpower deeply involved in South Asia, essentially acknowledged China's stature in the region when the following paragraph found its way into the joint communique issued by President Barak Obama and President Hu Jintao at the end their recent summit in Beijing:

"The two sides welcomed all efforts conducive to peace, stability and development in South Asia. They support the efforts of Afghanistan and Pakistan to fight terrorism, maintain domestic stability and achieve sustainable economic and social development, and support the improvement and growth of relations between India and Pakistan. The two sides are ready to strengthen communication, dialogue and cooperation on issues related to South Asia and work together to promote peace, stability and development in that region."

Coming a week before Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's visit to Washinton, these developments have already caused consternation in New Delhi, prompting Times of India to complain in the following words:

"China , Japan, Vietnam, Indonesia, Afghanistan, Pakistan... US president Barack Obama ran through the gamut of nations as he articulated another elegant Asia policy speech in Tokyo this week. Conspicuous by its absence was India. Was India not on his radar? Or was it such a close ally that he skipped naming it at a public function? It left New Delhi wondering. Just two days later, bam! He did something even more astonishing by acquiescing in a Chinese demand to let Beijing assume the role of a monitor in South Asia, an area where China is seen by India as part of the problem, not the solution."

Haq's Musings: China's Growing Role in Afghanistan, Kashmir

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## third eye

China is a part of the problem and no where near the solution.


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## BanglaBhoot

I think it a good sign that South Asians wish for China involvement to bring peace to the region.


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## EjazR

Well Mirwaiz is right in a way. China should return parts of ladakh and shaksam valley that it occupies so that the dispute can be resolved!

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## third eye

MBI Munshi said:


> I think it a good sign that South Asians wish for China involvement to bring peace to the region.



China cannot be a partner in bringing peace to S Asia so long as it hold parts of the area in dispute - Aksai Chin & the region ceded to it by Pk.

In any case, India does not accept arbitration on an issue that the aggrieved parties have decided to resolve mutually only.


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## RobbieS

The Mirwaiz has learnt how to stoke a fire. This statement coming at a time when there is considerable angst in GoI about Obama's China joint statement seeks to put the GoI on the back foot and at the same time put additional international pressure on the govt. Good opportunism, but as Uday Bhaskar says, it may hamper the peace talks.


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## BanglaBhoot

third eye said:


> China cannot be a partner in bringing peace to S Asia so long as it hold parts of the area in dispute - Aksai Chin & the region ceded to it by Pk.
> 
> In any case, India does not accept arbitration on an issue that the aggrieved parties have decided to resolve mutually only.



I think peace will require some give and take. China would probably give India Aksai Chin in return for Arunachal Pradesh and I think all three countries would not find it difficult to make Kashmir an autonomous zone where in 10 years a referendum can be held finally determining what happens to the area. Its all in the mindset and India seems the only one interested in conflict.


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## RobbieS

MBI Munshi said:


> I think peace will require some give and take. China would probably give India Aksai Chin in return for Arunachal Pradesh and I think all three countries would not find it difficult to make Kashmir an autonomous zone where in 10 years a referendum can be held finally determining what happens to the area. Its all in the mindset and India seems the only one interested in conflict.



I dont think India has to provide anything to China (other than "Thanks, what took you so long?") for getting back Aksai Chin. It wasn't India that 'handed' Aksai Chin to China, it was Pakistan. What Pakistan might have to give to China, I'll let the two friends decide on that, amicably of course.

And as I see, India is not interested in conflict in Kashmir. No country wants terrorist attacks on its soil nor does it want to lose its soldiers in IED explosions. As to the solution to Kashmir, well there's another forum for that.


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## bigmoneymaker

if you still insist that all disputed land are yours, and not allow any land swap, i think the disputes will never end until a decisive dramatic change, which may be harmful and forceful .

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## third eye

MBI Munshi said:


> I think peace will require some give and take. China would probably give India Aksai Chin in return for Arunachal Pradesh and I think all three countries would not find it difficult to make Kashmir an autonomous zone where in 10 years a referendum can be held finally determining what happens to the area. Its all in the mindset and *India seems the only one interested in conflict.*




Changing borders is not an option - this is something even the PM has made abundantly clear.

As far as AP is concerned, China overran the parts now claimed by it in 62. They withdrew on their own.So where do they stand now ?

It is obviously an attempt to bargain elsewhere ( the locations & aim are obvious)- something visible to all who matter.

Now asking for those parts again does not make sense. China has no role whatsoever in J&K at all neither will it ever.


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## arihant

RobbieS said:


> I dont think India has to provide anything to China (other than "Thanks, what took you so long?") for getting back Aksai Chin. It wasn't India that 'handed' Aksai Chin to China, it was Pakistan. What Pakistan might have to give to China, I'll let the two friends decide on that, amicably of course.
> 
> And as I see, India is not interested in conflict in Kashmir. No country wants terrorist attacks on its soil nor does it want to lose its soldiers in IED explosions. As to the solution to Kashmir, well there's another forum for that.



Pakistan didn't handed over Aksai Chin. It was Shaksgam Valley handed over without consent of the Kashmiris. Also, Stand of Pakistan on Aksai Chin is unclear. Either it should accept it as part of J&K Princely stated existed before independence or should clear the doubt by accepting it as a part of china.

Clearly, this means that UN resolution will not be valid, as it contains that all J&K should be demilitary zone and be govern under UN Forces. Also, there contain no independence for J&K People which has been wrongly communicated to the world.


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## Hutchroy

*China refuses to take Hurriyat bait, says not party to Kashmir conflict*

BEIJING : *China on Tuesday refused to be drawn into the renewed controversy over Kashmir,* which has been ignited with Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, chairman of All Parties Hurriyat Conference, saying that Beijing should act as it had a stake in the region's peace. 

*"The Kashmir issue is an issue between India and Pakistan left over by history. We hope the two sides could properly resolve the issue through dialogue and negotiations,"* Qin Gang, the foreign ministry spokesman said in reply to a question seeking his response to Farooqs remarks. 

Qins statement is significant in view of Indias unhappiness over one portion of the joint declaration issued by China and the United States during Barack Obamas recent visit to China. The statement said the two countries supported the improvement of relations between India and Pakistan. 

The foreign ministry spokesman was asked to comment about the snag developed during the launch of the Agni-II missile on Monday. 

It is an internal matter for India. We hope India would contribute to regional peace and stability, he said. 

Qin told a journalist he had not read reports about *New Delhi denying visas to 3,000 workers.* But China always supported development of trade and economic relationship with India. Trade and business relationship will also contribute to better neighbourly relationship and help resolve pending issues, he said.


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## dabong1

EjazR said:


> Well Mirwaiz is right in a way. China should return parts of ladakh and shaksam valley that it occupies so that the dispute can be resolved!



If you want the chinese bit of kashmir to be bought up alongside the pakistan and indian part of kashmir into any negotiation ,then you should have no problem with china taking part in any "peace process"?


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## dabong1

third eye said:


> China cannot be a partner in bringing peace to S Asia so long as it hold parts of the area in dispute - Aksai Chin & the region ceded to it by Pk.



Why the problem with china taking part in the peace process......after all you want all of kashmir to be bought into negotiations including the chinese part which you have mentioned so whats the problem with china taking part?


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## third eye

dabong1 said:


> Why the problem with china taking part in the peace process......after all you want all of kashmir to be bought into negotiations including the chinese part which you have mentioned so whats the problem with china taking part?



Some Reasons :

1 China is not a part of S Asia.

2. The issue has to be settled bi laterally as agreed by Pk & India with no room for a 3rd party.

3. The China held part of J&K has 2 implications - One that was ceded by Pk & the other occupied by China after a war with India. The 1st has to be resolved / returned by Pk. The second has to be returned by China. In any case , both these are not part of the original prob. Once J&K returns to its rightful owner, the rest will follow. If not then the LC shall have to converted to an IB.

4. When the J&K prob began, china as we now know it did not exist.


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## Red Dwarf

Take our land, split it as they like, share it as they like, and complaining us that their share is not enough and we want more land by negotiation. What a world


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## dabong1

third eye said:


> Some Reasons :
> 
> 1 China is not a part of S Asia.



Totally irrelevant.......you say china has a part of kashmir but then go onto to say its not in or part of south asia.



third eye said:


> 2. The issue has to be settled bi laterally as agreed by Pk & India with no room for a 3rd party.



Pakistan has changed its mind......like you guys have done with the UN.



third eye said:


> 3. The China held part of J&K has 2 implications - One that was ceded by Pk & the other occupied by China after a war with India. The 1st has to be resolved / returned by Pk. The second has to be returned by China. In any case , both these are not part of the original prob. Once J&K returns to its rightful owner, the rest will follow. If not then the LC shall have to converted to an IB.



But you indians keep bringing up the chinese bit of kashmir as being a problem.....you cant have it both ways.



third eye said:


> 4. When the J&K prob began, china as we now know it did not exist.



So?


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## dabong1

Red Dwarf said:


> Take our land, split it as they like, share it as they like, and complaining us that their share is not enough and we want more land by negotiation. What a world



We split into two nations along the lines of faith.....and kashmir is muslim.


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## EjazR

Time not right for pulling out Army: Omar

The security situation of Jammu and Kashmir is not yet conducive for moving the Army out of the state, said Chief Minister Omar Abdullah here on Tuesday, pointing out that demilitarisation will take time.

The Chief Minister was speaking on the occasion of the dedication of a war memorial to the nation in Jammu. The war memorial, Balidan Sthambh, was dedicated by Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor and accepted by the Chief Minister on behalf of the people of the state.

Omar said that although the Armys primary task was to take care of the border and the Line of Control (LoC), it has been in Jammu and Kashmir for the past 21 years on account of the internal situation of the state arising out of the prevailing militancy in the state.

Omar said that during the past 21 years, the Army has helped the state in many ways, not just in maintaining security and law and order. The Army has always been with the people in any kind of major crisis arising out of natural calamities and disasters or any other eventuality. 

Although the Army may also be willing to go back to its primary task of managing and protecting countrys border, the internal security situation of the state is not so conductive for their moving out of the state and the Army is needed to maintain the internal security situation in the state, he said.

He pointed out that there would be timely reduction in the Armys presence in the state when the security situation normalises. There has been marked improvement in the security situation and efforts are underway to bring about a situation of peace and tranquility so that the management of internal security situation is entrusted to the paramilitary forces and the state police, he said.

There was a massive political clamour demanding demilitarisation. I met Gen Deepak Kapoor on Tuesday morning and we both agreed that we will look at a programme to reduce the footprints of the Army and giving a greater role to paramilitary forces and the state police, he added. 

*2,500 terrorists waiting to cross over: Army Chief*

JAMMU: About 2,500 terrorists are waiting to sneak into J&K from across the border, Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor said here on Tuesday, pointing out that while ceasefire violations have come down, attacks on security forces have increased in the past few months. Kapoor said the terrorists are waiting for the right time to cross into India at various terrorist training camps in Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir. However, he said the security forces were ready to foil any infiltration bid.


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## Kuuba

third eye said:


> Some Reasons :
> 
> 1 China is not a part of S Asia.
> 
> 2. The issue has to be settled bi laterally as agreed by Pk & India with no room for a 3rd party.
> 
> 3. The China held part of J&K has 2 implications - One that was ceded by Pk & the other occupied by China after a war with India. The 1st has to be resolved / returned by Pk. The second has to be returned by China. In any case , both these are not part of the original prob. Once J&K returns to its rightful owner, the rest will follow. If not then the LC shall have to converted to an IB.
> 
> 4. When the J&K prob began, china as we now know it did not exist.



Aksai Chin by all means is China's land, friend, no matter from history or actuality. 

Your colonial ruler should have included the whole China into India's territory - is that what you wish? We are talking about some area where you had no activity and occupancy at all. If you are determined to go with this logic, you could claim the moon as part of India.


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## gubbi

dabong1 said:


> We split into two nations along the lines of faith.....and kashmir is muslim.



All of you livin' la vida loca in an utopian world, reign in to your horses for good, your all weather friend has this to say:

*China says Kashmir issue should be solved by India, Pakistan through dialogue *


> BEIJING, Nov. 24 (Xinhua) -- China Tuesday expressed hope that India and Pakistan could resolve the Kashmir issue bilaterally through dialogue and negotiations.
> 
> "China has consistent stance on the Kashmir issue," said Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang at a regular news briefing.
> 
> "The Kashmir issue is an issue between India and Pakistan left over by history. We hope the two sides could properly resolve the issue through dialogue and negotiations," Qin said.
> 
> Qin's remarks came after media reports quoted Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, chairman of All Parties Hurriyat Conference, a major political group in India-controlled Kashmir, that China has a stake in the region's peace.



*Oh noes, the all weather friend ditched their pals!!*

*Beijing not taking sides on Kashmir: Chinese media*


> The Communist Party&#8217;s official newspapers played up a report on Monday, that insisted &#8216;China is not taking sides on Kashmir&#8217;.
> 
> The report may have sought to reassure New Delhi as tensions simmer over separate stapled Chinese visas for Kashmir residents, Chinese infrastructure investment in Azad Kashmir, and the planned visit of separatist leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq to China. .......



*China refuses to take Hurriyat bait, says not party to Kashmir conflict*


> BEIJING: China on Tuesday refused to be drawn into the renewed controversy over Kashmir, which has been ignited with Mirwaiz Umar Farooq,
> Twitter	Facebook	Share
> Email	Print	Save	Comment
> chairman of All Parties Hurriyat Conference, saying that Beijing should act as it had a stake in the region's peace.
> 
> "The Kashmir issue is an issue between India and Pakistan left over by history. We hope the two sides could properly resolve the issue through dialogue and negotiations," Qin Gang, the foreign ministry spokesman said in reply to a question seeking his response to Farooq&#8217;s remarks.
> 
> Qin&#8217;s statement is significant in view of India&#8217;s unhappiness over one portion of the joint declaration issued by China and the United States during Barack Obama&#8217;s recent visit to China. The statement said the two countries supported &#8220;the improvement of relations between India and Pakistan&#8221;.




 @ all those wanting China to meddle in Kashmir.. 

EAT THAT!!

btw, FYI, China has its own vested interests vis-a-vis Kashmir and that is not going to make Pakistan happy!


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## third eye

dabong1 said:


> Totally irrelevant.......you say china has a part of kashmir but then go onto to say its not in or part of south asia.
> 
> *Relevance is something which is debatable. China has a part of J&K which it took by force. This in no way makes it a part of S Asia.*
> 
> Pakistan has changed its mind......like you guys have done with the UN.
> 
> *There are two parties to the issue - remember ? Going to the UN has no connection to China trying to fish in troubled waters. Neither does it remotely equate Ch with the UN.*
> 
> But you indians keep bringing up the chinese bit of kashmir as being a problem.....you cant have it both ways.
> 
> *India simply states facts which I have summarized in my post. Just coz China has a part of J&K - which happened much AFTER the prob began does not imply it too has a stake in its resolution. ..and we dont want it both ways at all. *
> 
> 
> 
> So?



*China has NO ROLE whatsoever in anything to do with J&K - it is a part of the problem therefore cannot be anything other than that. Its role in returning what it wrongly has should be handled by PK ( for the ceded part) & India ( for Aksai Chin) separately. Now its merely attempting to get involved in a prob it can do nothing in - obviously to further its own interests & stature in the region / world - something that will not happen.

" Begani Shaadi mein Abdullah diwana" - I would request some Indian / Pk friends to explain the meaning of this to our Chinese friends - this would illustrate how China is seen in India on this issue.*


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## dabong1

gubbi said:


> All of you livin' la vida loca in an utopian world, reign in to your horses for good, your all weather friend has this to say:



So your saying pakistan and india where not split along the lines of faith...?



gubbi said:


> *China says Kashmir issue should be solved by India, Pakistan through dialogue *
> 
> 
> *Oh noes, the all weather friend ditched their pals!!*
> 
> *Beijing not taking sides on Kashmir: Chinese media*
> 
> 
> *China refuses to take Hurriyat bait, says not party to Kashmir conflict*
> @ all those wanting China to meddle in Kashmir..
> 
> EAT THAT!!



So you think the chinese are going to shout out loud they have got themselfs into the kashmir game and that they support the kashmiris.




gubbi said:


> btw, FYI, China has its own vested interests vis-a-vis Kashmir and that is not going to make Pakistan happy!



The only people who are not happy with china getting a foothold in the kashmir problem is the indians.......if you want china to give up its bit of kashmir then there has to be a three way process....china-pakistan-india


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## dabong1

third eye said:


> *China has NO ROLE whatsoever in anything to do with J&K - it is a part of the problem therefore cannot be anything other than that.*


*

India is the problem in kashmir.......what role can you guys play other then pull the occupation forces out and give a free vote to the people of kashmir to see what they want.......after all you indians keep telling us that the kashmiris love india so you would have no problem with the vote considering your going to win?




third eye said:



Its role in returning what it wrongly has should be handled by PK ( for the ceded part) & India ( for Aksai Chin) separately. Now its merely attempting to get involved in a prob it can do nothing in - obviously to further its own interests & stature in the region / world - something that will not happen.

Click to expand...


So on one hand you agree that china has a part of kashmir but you dont want then involved in any peace process but you want the chinese to give up there bit.*


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## rajeev

Interesting news

China says Kashmir issue should be solved by India, Pakistan through dialogue _English_Xinhua

E.U. Team Says Kashmir Is Part Of India

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## gubbi

dabong1 said:


> So your saying pakistan and india where not split along the lines of faith...?


A little correction, *Pakistan was created on the basis of Islamic faith*, not India. *FYI, India chose to remain secular.* Though there was a feeble attempt by Pakistan to paint itself secular, that really hasn't happened and now everyone can very well see where those paths led us to!


> So you think the chinese are going to shout out loud they have got themselfs into the kashmir game and that they support the kashmiris.



Eu has said that Kashmir (J&K) is an integral part of India. China cannot meddle in Kashmir because it has its own skeletons in its closet and also has its own vested interests. Read these links..

*from this thread:*
*
Disputed Kashmir Serves China&#8217;s Interests*

*and this thread*

*J & K integral part of India: EU*
*Kashmir integral part of India: EU*


> The only people who are not happy with china getting a foothold in the kashmir problem is the indians.......if you want china to give up its bit of kashmir then there has to be a three way process....china-pakistan-india


Pakistan "handed" over a part of J&K to China. It now becomes Pakistan's prerogative to get it back from China if it wants a meaningful dialogue with India, so basically its your problem. As far as India is concerned China can take a hike when it comes to Kashmir, which they probably will do considering a few aces Indians have up their sleeve. There is a very good reason why China hasnt been making any noises about kashmir (those bites done privately to satisfy Pakistani "establishment" dont count and dont really translate into action!).

Edit: As regards to Aksai Chin, both India and China have mutually agreed to respect the LoAC!


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## UnitedPak

gubbi said:


> A little correction, *Pakistan was created on the basis of Islamic faith*, not India. *FYI, India chose to remain secular.* Though there was a feeble attempt by Pakistan to paint itself secular, that really hasn't happened and now everyone can very well see where those paths led us to!



Statements likes these simply show off your stupidity and ignorance on the little part of history called the British Raj of the subcontinent. No wonder many Indians tend to be inept at understanding complex political situations when they insist on summing everything up with one liners.

If you cant handle a real debate, this is probably not the forum for you.

If you want to know why Pakistan gained independence separately from India you should familiarise yourself with the lives and works of Jinnah and Allama Iqbal.



gubbi said:


> Eu has said that Kashmir (J&K) is an integral part of India. China cannot meddle in Kashmir because it has its own skeletons in its closet and also has its own vested interests. Read these links..
> 
> *from this thread:*
> *
> Disputed Kashmir Serves Chinas Interests*
> 
> *and this thread*
> 
> *J & K integral part of India: EU*
> *Kashmir integral part of India: EU*
> 
> EU


Doesn't matter what the Swedish ambassador said. He also said that he wants to understand the separatist perspective. You are not big on quoting that part though.
But since you take such an interest in quotes, here is one you should recall.



> Princely states enjoyed three options: accession to India, accession to Pakistan, or independence. *But the choice, according to India's Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru and tacitly endorsed by the British, was to be made by popular referendum in cases where the creed of the ruler varied from the religion of the majority.* *That fundamental democratic principle had been sternly applied by Nehru with military means in Hyderabad and Junagadh* where the rulers were Muslim but their inhabitants largely Hindu. Kashmir presented a converse case: the Maharaja was Hindu but the majority subscribed to Islam.
> 
> On November 2, 1947, Prime Minister Nehru reiterated, We have declared that the fate of Kashmir is ultimately to be decided by the people. That pledge we have given and the Maharaja supported it, not only to the people of Kashmir but to the world. *We will not and cannot back out of it.*"





gubbi said:


> Pakistan "handed" over a part of J&K to China. It now becomes Pakistan's prerogative to get it back from China if it wants a meaningful dialogue with India, so basically its your problem. As far as India is concerned China can take a hike when it comes to Kashmir, which they probably will do considering a few aces Indians have up their sleeve. There is a very good reason why China hasnt been making any noises about kashmir (those bites done privately to satisfy Pakistani "establishment" dont count and dont really translate into action!).


Pakistan did not "hand" anything over. Once again your lack of coherent facts shine through. Maybe you should consider knowing the first thing about Kashmir before you start ranting again? Just a thought.

As for "Aces up your sleeves", India will need plenty considering that you barely have any allies in the region.


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## rajeev

UnitedPak said:


> Statements likes these simply show off your stupidity and ignorance on the little part of history called the British Raj of the subcontinent. No wonder many Indians tend to be inept at understanding complex political situations when they insist on summing everything up with one liners.
> 
> If you cant handle a real debate, this is probably not the forum for you.



Can you expand this more, please. Isn't that true what he said that Pakistan was created based on Islamic ideology, but India elected to remain secular.



UnitedPak said:


> Pakistan did not "hand" anything over. Once again your lack of coherent facts shine through. Maybe you should consider knowing the first thing about Kashmir before you start ranting again? Just a thought.



I respectfully disagree with you. You need to read the history about this.

Trans-Karakoram Tract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## toxic_pus

UnitedPak said:


> Statements likes these simply show off your stupidity and ignorance on the little part of history called the British Raj of the subcontinent. No wonder many Indians tend to be inept at understanding complex political situations when they insist on summing everything up with one liners.
> 
> If you cant handle a real debate, this is probably not the forum for you.
> 
> If you want to know why Pakistan gained independence separately from India you should familiarise yourself with the lives and works of Jinnah and Allama Iqbal.


It seems your COAS is showing the same degree of 'stupidity' and 'ignorance' like *gubbi*, by thinking out loud that Pakistan was created on the basis of 'Islamic faith'.

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## third eye

dabong1 said:


> India is the problem in kashmir.......what role can you guys play other then pull the occupation forces out and give a free vote to the people of kashmir to see what they want.......after all you indians keep telling us that the kashmiris love india so you would have no problem with the vote considering your going to win?
> 
> India's stand on J&K is the same as that of China on Tibet - its ours & shall stay that way.
> 
> 
> So on one hand you agree that china has a part of kashmir but you dont want then involved in any peace process but you want the chinese to give up there bit.



*Yes, China has only to return Aksai Chin -thats all. It has no role whatsoever. The moot prob in J&K is the effects of the partition, PRC did not exist then so obviously it is not a party to the resolution. *


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## gubbi

UnitedPak said:


> Statements likes these simply show off your stupidity and ignorance on the little part of history called the British Raj of the subcontinent. No wonder many Indians tend to be inept at understanding complex political situations when they insist on summing everything up with one liners.


Mr. ThinkTank, why was Pakistan created, by partitioning Indian subcontinent? To satisfy those old egomaniacs or their thirst for power or as a supposed emancipation for the Muslims of the subcontinent? Ah complicated politics you say? Pray, do enlighten us as to the reasons for Pakistan's creation!


> If you cant handle a real debate, this is probably not the forum for you.


What debate? I just stated facts! I see, you dont like facts!


> If you want to know why Pakistan gained independence separately from India you should familiarise yourself with the lives and works of Jinnah and Allama Iqbal.


I have read enough about them, and FYI I really wish Pakistan had charted out a course what Jinnah had envisioned as per his speech! Alas, that was not to be and I really have my doubts that after creating Pakistan (if only partly) based on religion, whether he really meant what he said in that speech.


> Doesn't matter what the Swedish ambassador said. He also said that he wants to understand the separatist perspective. You are not big on quoting that part though.


For you it may not matter, but in diplomatic circles it a very big victory. It effectively blocks Pakistan's pov in the EU and that is one major power block in the world. Rest will be won over slowly and surely, you will have nowhere to go then.


> Pakistan did not "hand" anything over. Once again your lack of coherent facts shine through. Maybe you should consider knowing the first thing about Kashmir before you start ranting again? Just a thought.


Oh please do reread real history and check out the part of J&K that Pakistan handed over to China. Brush up your history.
As to your arguments about Hyderbad and Junagadh, yes we annexed them because they were to be a thorn in our Union. Plain and simple, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. So what's your problem there? We saw how a country seperated by a large distances struggles to exist and ultimately falls apart!


> As for "Aces up your sleeves", India will need plenty considering that you barely have any allies in the region.


You wish! But the realities are different, my friend. China cannot do anything regarding Kashmir and will always tow Indian pov. As for allies, you need not lose sleep, we've got plenty! In our own neighborhood!


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## fallstuff

Any union that is tumultuous and not mutually beneficial, may that be groups, or nations does not last. 

Soviet Union disintegrated
Yugoslavia disintegrated
Vietnam
Afghanistan 
British Raj
French Occupations
Dutch occupations
Italian Occuptions
Japanese Occpuations 

Gone are the ancient and middle ages where you slaughter nations and ppl to gain control. 
It is actually about Kashmiri people. It should not be about India or Pakistani PRIDE. There are real people dying there. People are not properties. If they want to stay with India, or Pakistan or if the majority of Kashmiris want to create their own Republic I am not sure how that can be an issue at all ?


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

well in that case....there can be referendum for tibet, taiwan, baluchistan....isn't and i will not be surprised with the outcome..isn't


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## makikirkiri

> Has the Indian Prime Minister interacted with the Kashmiri people like Pakistan's Prime Minister has.


 Well your primeminister should also have made the effort of interacting with the people in waziristan some time.Oh wait but there are indian sponsored terrorists all over in that area. I wonder who sponsors the terrorists infiltrating into J&K


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## Omar1984

*India committing state terrorism in IHK: Samsam *

ISLAMABAD, Nov 27 (APP): State Minister for Information and Broadcasting Samsam Ali Bukhari has said that Indian troops are committing state terrorism in occupied Kashmir.Talking to a private TV channel, he said &#8220;Indian troops in uniform are committing state terrorists in occupied Kashmir.&#8221;He urged international community to come forward and pressurize Indian for the resolution of Kashmir issue in accordance with the aspiration of Kashmiri people.Samsam Bukhari urged India to behave like a responsible state. 

He urged India to stop blame game adding Pakistan had never involved in such a game. 

The Minister said both the countries have to set together for the resolution of their all outstanding issues. 

To a question he said Pakistan is playing key role in war against terrorism. &#8220;Pakistan is a victim of terrorism and condemned all kinds of terrorism anywhere in the world.&#8221; 

To a question about differences between PPP and MQM he said &#8220;The things will be corrected when the senior leadership meets.&#8221; 

He urged the political parties to get united for the strengthening of democracy in the country.


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## UnitedPak

makikirkiri said:


> Well your primeminister should also have made the effort of interacting with the people in waziristan some time.Oh wait but there are indian sponsored terrorists all over in that area. I wonder who sponsors the terrorists infiltrating into J&K



Going wildly off topic seems to be your speciality. What exactly is the point of your posts anyway?


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## makikirkiri

> What exactly is the point of your posts anyway?


 The point is..........................................
*KASHMIR IS NOT SAFE FOR EITHER KASHMIRIS OR EVEN THEIR PM DUE TO STATE SPONSORED AND FACILITATED TERRORISTS BEING INFILTRATED INTO INDIA FROM PAKISTAN.* 
I have no " posts " just "a post". You seem to be confused and therefore at a loss of the ability to read between lines.


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## FreekiN

Hari said:


> So there's no Indian sponsored terrorism in Pakistan



Made my day. LOL.


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## Hulk

There are good number of Kashmiri who support Independence. This is the fact and I do not have any means to know the percentage but some of hthe anti India rallies had big number of people participating.


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## hembo

*New map exposes Pakistani designs on 'Kashmir'*
Mon, Nov 30 03:55 PM

London, Nov.30: While talking to some Kashmiris in London, Sardar Shaukat Kashmiri told us a story that on the day of Hashim Qureshi's wedding in Rawalpindi a famous writer and leader Dada Amir Haider was also present (he was the first Asian who had honour of meeting Lenin and was close associate of Nehru, Gandhi and Ghafar Khan).

During discussion on politics of Pakistan and Kashmir Dada Amir Haider said: If Pakistan remains of only one province and even if that is on fire there will be still some 'idiot Kashmiris' who will say we want to be part of this land which is on fire.

His message was that nationalist Kashmiris should ignore these 'idiots' who do not care for welfare of their own people and unity of their country; and are more concerned about welfare and future of Pakistan. This policy is illogical and illustrates flattering nature of the people concerned. Who would in his right mind appreciate actions of this man who ignores responsibilities to his own parents, and expresses love and care for his neighbour?

That is not because they love Pakistan but because they cannot think for themselves and they are infatuated with love of Islam. They think we (Kashmiris) must express love for Pakistan because Pakistan was set up in name of Islam, no matter what is happening in that Pakistan and what is geography of that land of pure. Furthermore this flattering but illogical attitude makes them darling of Islamabad which showers them with rewards.

It is these sentiments which Pakistan has successfully exploited since 1947. On Jammu and Kashmir both India and Pakistan had same policy and that was to make the State part of their country. Both countries had different reasons for doing this; and both adopted different strategies.

Jammu and Kashmir had a Muslim majority and India claimed that inclusion of the State with India would strengthen their secular ideals; Pakistan on the other hand claimed that inclusion of Jammu and Kashmir with Pakistan would strengthen Islamic ideals. Furthermore they wrongly thought that the State should have been 'awarded' to Pakistan even though the Two Nations Theory - a formula devised to divide the British India did not apply to Jammu and Kashmir and other Princely States.

Pakistani officials relied on their use of arms and exploitation of Islamic sentiments; and despite the Standstill Agreement they managed a tribal invasion and stabbed the Maharaja government in the back and inadvertently paved way for accession to India, which was accepted provisionally. This naked aggression resulted in killing and suffering of innocent Kashmiri people and subsequently led to the division of the State.

Tragedy is that even that aggression was presented to us Kashmiris as a Jihad which was carried out to help the people of Jammu and Kashmir.

Unfortunately many Kashmiris still regard that as true; and Pakistani officials have still not abandoned their policy of 'liberating' Jammu and Kashmir through jihad. What happened in Jammu and Kashmir in name of 'Jihad' is a tragic story. Once again Pakistani policy makers relied on use of arms and used a 'proxy war' and 'terrorism' to advance their interests in the region.

It is, however, true that Pakistan is also a victim of terrorism; but is it not also true that all these groups who are out of control and fighting Pakistan were created, trained and funded by Pakistani agencies? Should we feel pity that Frankenstein's monster disobeyed his creator? There is an ideological conflict between Pakistani agencies and these jihadi groups.

Whereas terrorist groups do not understand complexities of diplomacy and are groomed from childhood with one agenda - to wage jihad; Pakistani state apparatus are accountable for their actions to those who fund them. They have to demonstrate that they have changed their policy of training and funding of terrorists.

This is partially true. Those who are challenging the writ of government and are not prepared to understand compulsions of the government of Pakistan will face wrath of Pakistan, but 'good boys' who are still prepared to continue jihad in Kashmir and Afghanistan are still adored and supported.

What is happening in Pakistan is a direct result of policies of Pakistani agencies. Their wrong policies of the past are here to haunt them and make them appear victims.

Despite all these problems, their obsession to get Kashmir or at least make it unstable is not affected by internal problems. They have come out with true colours with their policy on Gilgit Baltistan. They have annexed this territory in name of new package and 'empowering people'. By Dr Shabir Choudhry (ANI)

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

No annexation of G-B has taken place - unlike India, the Pakistani constitution does not treat it as Pakistani territory.

That alone should be enough to debunk this rant.

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## Materialistic

> If Pakistan remains of only one province and even if that is on fire there will be still some 'idiot Kashmiris' who will say we want to be part of this land which is on fire.



Pakistan on fire !!!!Pakistan has insurgents in its smallest state and in the smallest area of that smallest state and they roughly figure upto 0.02% of the population and their purpose it to take over Pakistan. On the other hand India, which is so called *not on fire* has 20 states out of 29 controlled by moaist rebels, which has higher number of military men executed by insurgents 2800 than Pakistan's 2000 in open war. India (not on fire) where people of these 20 states and also Kashmir, Punjab & Hydrabad demand freedom. And this all has happened because of lack of rights to poor people and minorities. So, in that respect i think Pakistan burning on fire is still cool and stable than the country not so on fire.

*Following the comment above, Uttar or andar pradesh (The state disputed between China & India) should turn back towards China rather than going for India which has actually burned more than 2/3 to the same fire. *

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## graphican

hembo said:


> During discussion on politics of Pakistan and Kashmir Dada Amir Haider said: If Pakistan remains of only one province and even if that is on fire there will be still some 'idiot Kashmiris' who will say we want to be part of this land which is on fire.
> 
> That is not because they love Pakistan but because they cannot think for themselves and they are infatuated with love of Islam. They think we (Kashmiris) must express love for Pakistan because Pakistan was set up in name of Islam, no matter what is happening in that Pakistan and what is geography of that land of pure.



Muslims are one Ummah no matter who ever they are, wherever they are, even Muslims in India are connected and spiritually part of Pakistan and rest of Muslim World. A non-muslim cannot understand what does it mean to be a Muslim and what does it takes to remain a Muslim. This is not religion of Cowardice and Shameless people.. it takes Heart of a Lion filled with Love of God and His Prophet (PBUH) to understand what Ummah means. No wonder after offering nearly 1,00,000 people on the way of Jihaad, the Kashmire Blood is not cold as you are desperate to see it. 

True, Kashmires are our brothers, not because they are children of our fore-fathers, but because they are Muslim like us. And regarding Jihaad, we are fore-told that no matter what, Jihaad will continue till the day of Judgment. So whether you like it or not, whether Pakistan supports Kashmires or other Muslims in India or not, you are not going to see Muslims compromise or quit their struggle against illegal occupation.

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## gubbi

> Muslims are one Ummah no matter who ever they are, wherever they are, even Muslims in India are connected and spiritually part of Pakistan and rest of Muslim World.


Tell that to the Arabs, the Turks and the Persians and see how they respond. For that matter tell that even to the Indians who follow Islamic faith! Pakistan is not the torch bearer of Islam and will never be, for very obvious reasons.



> A non-muslim cannot understand what does it mean to be a Muslim and what does it takes to remain a Muslim. This is not religion of Cowardice and Shameless people.. it takes Heart of a Lion filled with Love of God and His Prophet (PBUH) to understand what Ummah means.


Lamest comment ever! "Cowardice and Shameless people" are the ones forcing the "pure" people like TTP, Taliban, LeT, HM, and AQ to eat dust! We have seen their "hearts of a Lion" when they blow up innocent people, women and children.

I think a person who claims to follow Islam without understanding the religion properly cannot understand what it means to be a Muslim and is prone to making such ridiculous and outrageous comments, indulges in questionable activities, not to mention invite the wrath of LEO's!



> whether you like it or not, whether Pakistan supports Kashmires or other Muslims in India or not, you are not going to see Muslims compromise or quit their struggle against illegal occupation.


What about TTP and AQ's call for Jihad? They claim to follow a "more purer", if you may, version of Islam, which they want to implement in the lands under their control. What does that make the rest of Islam's followers?

Lame post as usual!



Materialistic said:


> *Following the comment above, Uttar or andar pradesh (The state disputed between China & India) should turn back towards China rather than going for India which has actually burned more than 2/3 to the same fire. *


A little "google" use can help one gain a little more knowledge. Please do educate yourself before commenting on something you seem to know nothing about! Geography for dummies is available on the bookshelves in a store near you!

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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No annexation of G-B has taken place - unlike India, the Pakistani constitution does not treat it as Pakistani territory.



*Official results of GB polls announced*

Is that so? So what exactly is Pakistan's Election commission doing conducting elections (Nov09) in the G-B areas where PPP (a mainstream Pakistani political party) won 11 seats while PMN-L (another mainstream Pakistani political party) won 2 seats? Why were these parties and others like MQM allowed to partake in elections, conducted by Pakistani election commission, in an area which, according to your post, is not Pakistan's sovereign territory?

Why isnt G-B part of "Azad Kashmir" or a more politically correct term "P-0-K?

_What were you saying again? You, debunked a rant?_

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## FreekiN

gubbi said:


> Tell that to the Arabs, the Turks and the Persians and see how they respond. For that matter tell that even to the Indians who follow Islamic faith! Pakistan is not the torch bearer of Islam and will never be, for very obvious reasons.



Yeah and they'd agree with the Ummah. And Pakistan never said it was the torch-bearer. Infact, NO Muslim country can be a torch bearer AT ALL.


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## EjazR

graphican said:


> Muslims are one Ummah no matter who ever they are, wherever they are, even Muslims in India are connected and spiritually part of Pakistan and rest of Muslim World. A non-muslim cannot understand what does it mean to be a Muslim and what does it takes to remain a Muslim. This is not religion of Cowardice and Shameless people.. it takes Heart of a Lion filled with Love of God and His Prophet (PBUH) to understand what Ummah means. No wonder after offering nearly 1,00,000 people on the way of Jihaad, the Kashmire Blood is not cold as you are desperate to see it.
> 
> True, Kashmires are our brothers, not because they are children of our fore-fathers, but because they are Muslim like us. And regarding Jihaad, we are fore-told that no matter what, Jihaad will continue till the day of Judgment. So whether you like it or not, whether Pakistan supports Kashmires or other Muslims in India or not, you are not going to see Muslims compromise or quit their struggle against illegal occupation.



If you have so much care for your muslim brothers, why not leave them in peace? They don't want your "Jihad" so why IMPOSE it on them. 

Your basically syaing that wether Kashmiris want to join Pakistan or not, we will continue to fight "Jihad" to make them join Pakistan. Acchi zarbardasti hai

My friend this is not Jihad its Fasad espicially since there is full freedom of religion. Why not fight for the Uighur muslim in China who actually DO NOT have that freedom.

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## EjazR

By the way check out this intersting map from the Pakistani FO website. A few points to notice:

* PaK or AJK as it is known in Pakistan is part of the disputed territory, so Pakistan FO correctly regards this as disputed territory and not Pakistani territory along with J&K

* Gilgit agency is shown as part of Pakistan and not part of J&K while Baltistan is
* Territories occupied by China like aksai chin and the shaksam valley are not shown at all. So probably the Pakistani FO considers these areas as not disputed.

Here is the link:
http://www.mofa.gov.pk/Maps/PAK_Administrative.jpg

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## grey boy 2

EjazR said:


> If you have so much care for your muslim brothers, why not leave them in peace? They don't want your "Jihad" so why IMPOSE it on them.
> 
> Your basically syaing that wether Kashmiris want to join Pakistan or not, we will continue to fight "Jihad" to make them join Pakistan. Acchi zarbardasti hai
> 
> My friend this is not Jihad its Fasad espicially since there is full freedom of religion. Why not fight for the Uighur muslim in China who actually DO NOT have that freedom.



Why every single time when you Indians went out of bullets during a

a debate you started to drag China into it ?

Let me tell you the Uighur muslim in China's living stardard are way 

way better than your so-called "Shinning India" 

For God sake please cut out your crap and take a good look of 

yourself in the damn mirror !!

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## EjazR

*@grey boy*
I don't want to drag China into it too, but I don't expect you to understand the theological aspects of where "Jihad" rhetoric is wrongly used for violence. Freedom of religion is more important than living standards from the Islamic point of view although that is important as well. A good muslim will not give up his faith if he is told that he will get so much and so much money.

While in India certainly the living standards may not be comparable, there is freedom of religion and this is where the theological argument falls flat. It doesn't matter wether your rich or poor in India, but most importantly you have the freedom to practice and preach your religion.

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## Trisonics

grey boy 2 said:


> Why every single time when you Indians went out of bullets during a
> 
> a debate you started to drag China into it ?
> 
> Let me tell you the Uighur muslim in China's living stardard are way
> 
> way better than your so-called "Shinning India"
> 
> For God sake please cut out your crap and take a good look of
> 
> yourself in the damn mirror !!



if you cannot comprehend what is being argued in a thread, stay away! Your usual rant about living conditions cannot take away the fact that Chinese have called Uighur as "Terrorists" and are suppressing Islam. There have been detentions and executions. 
BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | China 'crushing Muslim Uighurs'

oh yeah and be a troll and start posting links appended by your favorite smileys

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## graphican

gubbi said:


> Tell that to the Arabs, the Turks and the Persians and see how they respond. For that matter tell that even to the Indians who follow Islamic faith! Pakistan is not the torch bearer of Islam and will never be, for very obvious reasons.



Jihad is not against India, it is against *every* force that is against teachings of Islam, let it be theft, discrimination, imposed philosophy or even occupied forces. Arabs, Turks and Persians know that and they do Jihad to the level they could.. and yes Pakistan is not the torch-barer, its not even Saudia Arabia and not even Dhakan in India. No country in the world has monopoly over Islam. It starts with the Book of God and Sunnah of Prophet and Ends there. 



gubbi said:


> Lamest comment ever! "Cowardice and Shameless people" are the ones forcing the "pure" people like TTP, Taliban, LeT, HM, and AQ to eat dust! We have seen their "hearts of a Lion" when they blow up innocent people, women and children.
> 
> I think a person who claims to follow Islam without understanding the religion properly cannot understand what it means to be a Muslim and is prone to making such ridiculous and outrageous comments, indulges in questionable activities, not to mention invite the wrath of LEO's!



Yes this is not religion of Cowardice and Shameless People.. and this holds true even for Muslims in India. For Muslims, its the Will-of-God which is the most important element and they will sacrifice every thing, just everything that comes on their way to achieve that. If one is not ready to do that, he/she will not embrace it the first place.. So Cowardice and Shameless people are not fit in this religion.

Regarding TTP, they are not Face of Islam. People who are supported by India and Israel cannot be Muslims for one simple reason that Holy Prophet PBUH said "Yahood and Hanood will never be your friend" and this is enough for Muslims. So people who are following your war-plans are not merely what you could present as sample Muslims.



gubbi said:


> What about TTP and AQ's call for Jihad? They claim to follow a "more purer", if you may, version of Islam, which they want to implement in the lands under their control. What does that make the rest of Islam's followers?



Here you are talking my words. Just imagine how people from Arab and Tajikistan, Oman, Yaman and God knows from where else are approaching and standing up in the name of Jihad although its a False Flag. A Muslim will never force somebody to be relegious and the people who are doing so are simply not Muslims. TTP is not here to implement Sharia and when it was initially imagined that they are only looking to implement Sharia, Government of Pakistan had accept that but TTP was only using Sharia (the Islamic law) as an instrument of deception and even when that was implemented, they kept violating and rather started capturing area by killing locals and Government Representatives. There are no doubts that they were NOT looking for Sharia but they were only using it to gain popularity and they were successful with that. Don't worry whole story would open soon and you will see how many Indian asserts we filter out from them. The time is near.

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## PAFAce

Another attempt to malign Pakistan, and to divert attention from the _real_ Kashmir issue; that of India occupying Kashmiri territory without the consent of its people, and fortifying that occupation through violence, torture and inequality.

Okay, Pakistan is the devil, we are the worst people on the planet. We have occupied every single piece of territory we have illegally. You are better than we are, why don't you show your character and let the land and its people live freely? Why do you try so hard to divert attention away from the real issues?

It all makes as much sense as forgetting about the Palestinian issue and blaming Iran for all the problems in the Middle East. 

*Edit*
Man, seriously, as much as I hate to argue with some Indians here, I find that it is almost impossible to argue sensibly in the presence of some Pakistanis. "Muslim Ummah" this and "Islamic power" that, what you are doing is giving the Indian trolls an opportunity to avoid the main issue! Please, like the man above said, if you don't know what is being discussed, stay the F* out!

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## Trisonics

> Muslims are one Ummah no matter who ever they are, wherever they are, even *Muslims in India are connected and spiritually part of Pakistan* and rest of Muslim World. A non-muslim cannot understand what does it mean to be a Muslim and what does it takes to remain a Muslim.



Your argument was flawed when you said "Muslims in India are connected and spiritually part of Pakistan", that just seems like a popular belief for Pakistanis. Your second part of the argument (reply to Gubbi) made more sense. However that is only in writing or belief but the real world as we all know it is very different right? We all can give many examples of Muslims vs Muslims, so, I would describe it best as a sentiment.

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## EjazR

The problem is not with the average Pakistani who does'nt even know what the militants do in Kashmir. They think they are different from the TTP but they are the same. If Pakistan wants to resolve the dispute protecting its interests, its welcome to do so, but please leave the "Jihad" rhetoric aside and don't insult this concept by saying what these militants do is Jihad. The locals who were involved in militancy like the JKLF e.t.c. have all given up arms and they didnt even use the word Jihad when they were fighting against GoI for independance. Its only the Pakistani based militants like LeT, Hizb e.t.c that are active now who do so.

During the 2002 state elections, for instance, militant attacks were stepped up. These included the assassination of Mushtaq Ahmed Lone, law minister in the National Conference government. Independent candidates and political activists were attacked, and some were killed. Even the APHC was not spared. Abdul Ghani Lone, who led a moderate APHC component, the People&#8217;s Conference, and was willing to negotiate with the GOI on participation in the polls, was assassinated. APHC is an umbrella group of sepratists mainly adovcating for Independace if you did'nt know.

Even the media in Kashmir is not spared. The media in Kashmir is pressured by the militants to adopt an anti-Indian and pro-militant stance. During the 2002 elections and even now to some extent, journalists are openly threatened. Those who protest or write against the militants have been physically attacked.
The Srinagar Times, Daily Aftab and Alsafa have closed down on many occasions due to militant threats. The militants also target the minority Hindu community in Kashmir to ensure that any peace process fails. But by far the kashmiri muslims bare the brunt of militant attacks.

Its another story that because of this Kashmiri muslims get victimised by Indian security forces as well. And the corrupt sections withing the J&K police and security forces do'nt uphold the rule of law in all cases.

I hope people realise that these so called "Jihadi" groups are part of the problem, not the solution in J&K

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## Bushy

I have been visiting Kashmir since I was a kid. What I have personally witnessed, is that when there was no insurgency or violence in the valley, Kashmiris had a very high standard of life. 

I remember back in early 80's, the kids of Shikara owners used to smoke cigarettes that would cost over Rs.100 per stick even in those times. Then, very few of the Kashmiris would talk about separation, and yet those who did speak, would get heard at international level! That was the reason why in those times, be it the UK, the USA, and even some times China would give signs of mediating the Kashmir dialogue between India and Pakistan.

India had no leverage of any kind to play on Kashmir issue, and any country's interest in mediation would become a big news. Indians were the villains then.

Then one fine day, the USSR pulled out of Afghanistan. Hamid Gul became a hero. And Pakistanis (ISI and the Military, not the general Pakistani) were amazed, and took this withdrawal as a defeat of the USSR. 

By the time Hamid Gul became chief of the ISI, the establishments in Pakistan were already convinced of a foolproof formula that involved the invincible 'Jihadi' ideology. 
Now, when someone become successful at something, that person/entity, applies the same formula in the next plan. The next plan, and even more crucial, was the bone of contention between India and Pakistan, known as Kashmir. 

And so, under the expert supervision of Hamid Gul's ISI, a great amount of left-over from Afghanistan was fed to the Kashmir issue under the name of 'Jihad'. The shear number of arms and arm-bearers sent for 'Jihad' in Kashmir was such that it shocked everyone in India. Many tourists became the first victims, bringing their horrid stories to the government quarters in Delhi.

Now how could India miss such a golden opportunity. It had to look more like a revenge, that could be justified in any court. Along with the para-military forces, India more than doubled its Army troops in Kashmir and for an apparently valid reason - the reason that could stand internationally. 

This was not to go down well with the outfits such as the violent separatist organization *JKLF, who retaliated with all their might, and in the process became internationally recognized as hardcore terrorists. This recognition of theirs made Pakistan look like a villain, and gave India a free-hand on 'Jihadis'/Separatists. On all kinds of Jihadis. 
Around 1995, the Indian Army began to push back the insurgents, or whoever confronted them, back to the mountains. Reaction: International media applauded a 'victimized' India's efforts against militancy, and began shying away from their stance on mediation in the Kashmir issue.

In my opinion, if Pakistan had not tried the same Afghanistan's formula in Kashmir, and rather had left it to the Kashmiris, India could not have such a strong stand on the issue as it has today.

However, now when I talk to Kashmiris (I have had interaction only with the educated ones who have traveled well), they appear smitten by India's progress in the last 15 years and want it to be India's integral part forever.

Since this brief piece on Kashmir's situation is solely based on my personal experience and views, please feel free to disagree.

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## navtrek

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No annexation of G-B has taken place - unlike India, the Pakistani constitution does not treat it as Pakistani territory.
> 
> That alone should be enough to debunk this rant.



Kashmir is a part of India because of Pakistan, The Maharajah of Kashmir Joined India because of the backstabbing by Pakistan 

i.e. as the article says


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## EjazR

*@Bushy*
Just a quick correction there, JKLF is *not *a 'Jihadi' outfit. It is a Kashmiri nationalist organisation and still is secular in nature and advocates right to return for Kashmiri pandits. JKLF leader Yasim Malik renounced violence in 1995 and since advocates a peacful resolution to J&K issue.

Interview - Yasin Malik
The Hindu : Come back, Yasin Malik tells Kashmiri Pandits


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## Bushy

EjazR said:


> *@Bushy*
> Correction there, JKLF is *not *a 'Jihadi' outfit. It is a Kashmiri nationalist organisation and still is secular in nature and advocates right to return for Kashmiri pandits. JKLF leader Yasim Malik renounced violence in 1995 and since advocates a peacful resolution to J&K issue.
> 
> Interview - Yasin Malik
> The Hindu : Come back, Yasin Malik tells Kashmiri Pandits



Thanks for the correction Ejaz, I will edit that. My perception was based on the flag of Islam hoisted above its (now deserted) headquarters in Sopore that I visited in March this year.


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## EjazR

Bushy said:


> Thanks for the correction Ejaz, I will edit that. My perception was based on the flag of Islam hoisted above its (now deserted) headquarters in Sopore that I visited in March this year.



Is this the flag you are talking about which is the JKLF flag?
File:Kashmir independent.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not sure what you mean by the flag of Islam as there is no such thing. Although the green colour and star and crescent are usually associated with it, there is no theological or Quranic basis for this and is more a cultural/historic thing.


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## Bushy

EjazR said:


> Is this the flag you are talking about which is the JKLF flag?
> File:Kashmir independent.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by the flag of Islam as there is no such thing. Although the green colour and star and crescent are usually associated with it, there is no theological or Quranic basis for this and is more a cultural/historic thing.



No Ejaz, that's JKLF flag I think. The one I saw was like Pakistan's flag without the white strip on the left. It was all green with a crescent and a star.
At first I thought it was Pakistan's flag, so I asked my brother (who is deployed there), why did they not take it down. He told me that it was not Pakistan's, but Islam's flag for the Kashmiris.


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## EjazR

^^^That would be right I guess, like I said; there is no scriptural basis for the green color or star and crescent. But i has become associated with Islam for historic/cultural reasons.


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## Khajur

graphican said:


> *Muslims are one Ummah no matter who ever they are, wherever they are,* even Muslims in India are connected and spiritually part of Pakistan and rest of Muslim World. A non-muslim cannot understand what does it mean to be a Muslim and what does it takes to remain a Muslim. This is not religion of Cowardice and Shameless people.. it takes Heart of a Lion filled with Love of God and His Prophet (PBUH) to understand what Ummah means. No wonder after offering nearly 1,00,000 people on the way of Jihaad, the Kashmire Blood is not cold as you are desperate to see it.



Where is the concept of Muslims Ummah when ur army killed millions of Bengali muslims in East pakistan and they choose to get separated and become independent Bangladesh.

And how about stopping the killing of Shia muslims in pakistan before dreaming of greater muslim ummah??

Its only the weak poor pakistanis who dream of Ummah as they badly need money and employment in gulf .The Arab are pretty secure of their identity and always maintain their exclusivity .*They even wont allow muslims from South Asia to become citizens of their countries,so much for the ummah,haha.*


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## pakpower

Khajur said:


> Where is the concept of Muslims Ummah when ur army killed millions of Bengali muslims in East pakistan and they choose to get separated and become independent Bangladesh.
> 
> And how about stopping the killing of Shia muslims in pakistan before dreaming of greater muslim ummah??
> 
> Its only the weak poor pakistanis who dream of Ummah as they badly need money and employment in gulf .The Arab are pretty secure of their identity and always maintain their exclusivity .*They even wont allow muslims from South Asia to become citizens of their countries,so much for the ummah,haha.*



Dont interfere in muslim issues you hindu just stay put.


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## SU-57E

DONT TALK ABOUT BANGLADESH ...it hurts i guess


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## FlickerSingh

pakpower said:


> Dont interfere in muslim issues you hindu just stay put.



why u presume he is hindu? he could be sikh, christian or athiest lol


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## shhhahuuu

EjazR said:


> *@grey boy*
> IWhile in India certainly the living standards may not be comparable, there is freedom of religion and this is where the theological argument falls flat. It doesn't matter wether your rich or poor in India, but most importantly you have the freedom to practice and preach your religion.




FREEDOM OF PRACTICE IN INDIA...??? can sm1 tell me what is freedom of practice??? my dear you do not treat minorities even like humans... there r thousands of xamples.. i'll qoute just one of them..

every one knows that India has got a huge army and we also know that one fifth (1/5) of the population of India consist of Muslims, so called warrior nation.. can you qoute a single name of a MUSLIM GENERAL in your army...??? you just CAN'T... 

this is called FREEDOM OF ACTION..


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## shhhahuuu

just as you dont talk about 1965 war... when your army faught FACE TO FACE... and was smashd... u can never win a face 2 face battle so u fight like BUZDILZ..


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## ssheppard

shhhahuuu said:


> FREEDOM OF PRACTICE IN INDIA...??? can sm1 tell me what is freedom of practice??? my dear you do not treat minorities even like humans... there r thousands of xamples.. i'll qoute just one of them..
> 
> every one knows that India has got a huge army and we also know that one fifth (1/5) of the population of India consist of Muslims, so called warrior nation.. can you qoute a single name of a MUSLIM GENERAL in your army...??? you just CAN'T...
> 
> this is called FREEDOM OF ACTION..



If Muslims dont join Indian army....what can Indian army do...you can not just force people to join army....It voluntary.....India army has just 3&#37; Muslim staff.....is it India's fault that Muslims in India don't want to join Indian army ..just because they don't want to go to hell...after killing at their Pakistani Muslim counterparts.....

its Muslims choice that they want to join army...so they don't get promoted to higher ranks....


Anyways...a slap on your face: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-2921323,prtpage-1.cms

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## afriend

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No annexation of G-B has taken place - unlike India, the Pakistani constitution does not treat it as Pakistani territory.
> 
> That alone should be enough to debunk this rant.



I think india does consider it a part of its own terrirtory without changing the demography and pakistan considers it a seperate and still changes the demography of the state, which i feel is hypocracy. Kashmir have beend divded on pakistan's convinience into azad kashmir and norther areas..and have also considered akasai chin a part of china..!! So it seems by every chance it is not the love for kashmir but the water sources that orginates from indian side of kashmir which intrests pakistan..!!!


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## ssheppard

afriend said:


> I think india does consider it a part of its own terrirtory without changing the demography and pakistan considers it a seperate and still changes the demography of the state, which i feel is hypocracy. Kashmir have beend divded on pakistan's convinience into azad kashmir and norther areas..and have also considered akasai chin a part of china..!! So it seems by every chance it is not the love for kashmir but the water sources that orginates from indian side of kashmir which intrests pakistan..!!!



Spot on......Pakistan is only concerned about the resources that Kashmir would bring....

They don't want a Azad Kashmir...they want a Kashmir that is part of Pakistan...even if it is without the inhabitants.....they would love to have a Kashmir without Kashmiris......

Remember the age old slogan...."Kashmir banega Pakistan"........that what they want...An Independent Kashmir....is a fools paradise.

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## Kavin

shhhahuuu said:


> FREEDOM OF PRACTICE IN INDIA...??? can sm1 tell me what is freedom of practice??? my dear you do not treat minorities even like humans... *there r thousands of xamples..*



Yes, we have freedom to practice any religion. *There are CRORES of examples..*



shhhahuuu said:


> can you qoute a single name of a MUSLIM GENERAL in your army...??? you just CAN'T...



Refer ssheppard's post. 





_Brigadier Mohammad Amin Naik had been elevated to the post of Major General (TOI Photo)_

The fact remains that if competent, *a Muslim can rise in India to the highest position in any services including army*

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## ambidex

PAFAce said:


> The _real_ Kashmir issue; that of India occupying Kashmiri territory without the consent of its people, and fortifying that occupation through violence, torture and inequality.
> 
> Why don't you show your character and let the land and its people live freely?



Respected Sir,

Enmity is a two party affair. One should always think first, before engaging is such animosity that it will hit them back.

At the end of the day it was both Pakistan and India's distrust to each other that today kashmiris are suffering.

Both were trying to occupy land after independence like mad dogs.

I wont go in debate; who did first etc... But it was Pakistan who attacked Kashmir and India went offencive to counter on blah blah reasons.

My point here to make people understand that it is not one way traffic. Pakistan may say anything now(Ajad kashmir, freedom,,blaha blah..) but your first effort was to occupy and join Kashmir with union of Pakistan. 

Your contemporary assertions about Kashmir are fake and deceptive. It is Pakistan's diplomatic defeat that you are now for sake of some unknown advantage are dishonest to yourself by making comments like freedom of kashmiris.

why Pakistan attacked Kashmir in first place in 1947 if it was concerned of its freedom. Why diplomatic efforts were not conducted before attacking Kashmir. Why India factor was not considered before such aggression. The urgency of that war prove that both were trying to occupy J&k. 

Now for Pakistan with India's constant stand and half occupation of J&K (by Pakistani view) it seems that the 'grapes are sore for Pakistan'.

The honesty was to admit that it was a Pakistani effort to unite J&K with Pakistan which was jeopardise by India.

Now both occupies a land equally but Pakistan by sponsoring aggression of all means to Indian side of Kashmir thus making life of ordinary kashmiri difficult. Same kashmiris have forced their own residents pundits to exile and are now less developed but skilled chest beaters and stone throwers.

Being a Muslim nation Pakistan should admit to fact post independence it was Pakistan's genuine effort to unite all neighbouring lands with majority of Muslim population.

It was better to claim Kashmir by diplomatic process not by war as a part of Pakistan. 

Now everyday you can not change your stand and use Kashmir turmoil to humiliate India. 

Why Pakistan is not honest as it was during few very first UN debates on Kashmir. Why every time some Pakistani is coming up and throwing challenges like a armature wrestler of religious bigotry. Why Pakistan can not act like a brave state who simply claim one territory as its own from his neighbour, as India is claiming whole kashmir as integral part of India. 
Please don't spread hatred in Indian part of Kashmir, act like a state, and claim J&K if the question is about prosperity of kashmiris only. 

By encouraging them to revolt against a state will not bring peace and development. This is what India has maintained by not engaging with pakistani side of kashmir population even after having a firm stand.

Regards


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## graphican

EjazR said:


> If you have so much care for your muslim brothers, why not leave them in peace? They don't want your "Jihad" so why IMPOSE it on them.
> 
> Your basically syaing that wether Kashmiris want to join Pakistan or not, we will continue to fight "Jihad" to make them join Pakistan. Acchi zarbardasti hai
> 
> My friend this is not Jihad its Fasad espicially since there is full freedom of religion. Why not fight for the Uighur muslim in China who actually DO NOT have that freedom.



Hello Ejaz, 

Sure we can leave Kashmires in peace if they are happy living with India. After all Pakistan has never offered its support to the people of Dakan who are not activly looking for it. So if Kashmires say we do not want freedom, we will be happy for them. There is no Zabardasti. So what is the best way to know if Kashmires want to stay with India or Pakistan? Indian Elections or a Plebiscite? 

Regarding Muslims of Uighur, being a Muslim you can better understand that Jihad is not against "India" or "Israel". Jihad is universal and who ever is going against Islam will have to face it, so do the occupying forces of Uighur. But if you want to ask which Jihad should be fought first then the Jihad that has taken more Muslim Lives than the other is the obvious priority, no surprise its Kashmir and Palestine. Would you disagrees with that?


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## graphican

Khajur said:


> Where is the concept of Muslims Ummah when ur army killed millions of Bengali muslims in East pakistan and they choose to get separated and become independent Bangladesh.
> 
> And how about stopping the killing of Shia muslims in pakistan before dreaming of greater muslim ummah??
> 
> Its only the weak poor pakistanis who dream of Ummah as they badly need money and employment in gulf .The Arab are pretty secure of their identity and always maintain their exclusivity .*They even wont allow muslims from South Asia to become citizens of their countries,so much for the ummah,haha.*



This is where Indian dirty hand come into play and this is where you owe us. Why don't you name TTP here who is supposedly part of same Ummah and who is fighting against Pakistan? Mukti Bahni and TTP are two chapters of the same story, both foreign funded, foreign controlled agents. Bangalis realized that they were being deceived and the Banga Bodhu got assassinated by the same Nation was was standing behind it. 

Shias are as much Muslim as rest of the Ummah.. yes there are few differences but those differences does not rip us apart. We stand one against enemies and at the time of Jihad we are one Ummah. 

You would can only see the world through the goggles of Politics or Religious discrimination as Brahmins, Ksatriyas, vaisyas and Sudras but in spite of being in bad shape, Muslims are united. Arab Countries count on us for their defence and they know if Israel attacked them, who is going to counter-strike them and so we know. Even for Ghazwatuhind, we know Pakistan will be destroyed and its very likely that most Pakistanis would die within couple of days of fight but its the Ummah who would join hands with few left Muslims in Pakistan and will fight and defeat India. We will chain Indian Leaders and this is what Holy Prophet PBUH has for-told us.


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## makikirkiri

> Why every single time when you Indians went out of bullets during a
> 
> a debate you started to drag China into it ?
> 
> Let me tell you the Uighur muslim in China's living stardard are way
> 
> way better than your so-called "Shinning India"
> 
> For God sake please cut out your crap and take a good look of
> 
> yourself in the damn mirror !!



These chinese are sooo.. dying to get their new found riches noticed by everyone.Yes Sir we know you have made progress and now please spare this forum of your "I want all the attention on to my new found riches and boast about and taunt others syndrome":


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## ssheppard

graphican said:


> This is where Indian dirty hand come into play and this is where you owe us. Why don't you name TTP here who is supposedly part of same Ummah and who is fighting against Pakistan? Mukti Bahni and TTP are two chapters of the same story, both foreign funded, foreign controlled agents. Bangalis realized that they were being deceived and the Banga Bodhu got assassinated by the same Nation was was standing behind it.
> 
> Shias are as much Muslim as rest of the Ummah.. yes there are few differences but those differences does not rip us apart. We stand one against enemies and at the time of Jihad we are one Ummah.



Well if Pakistanis and Pakistan treat India as their enemy ....what stops India and Indians from doing the same. Why should Indians not use same forces against Pakistan that Pakistan is using against India. The only difference being that Pakistan Failed and is failing in its attempts...but India succeeded in 1971....and lets see what future has in store for us.





graphican said:


> We stand one against enemies and at the time of Jihad we are one Ummah.


Hmm..ummah...the so called Muslim brotherhood.....where is this brotherhood when Pakistan is fighting one of its worst battles against TTP.....

Where was this Ummah..when Pakistan was about to run out of money ...to import gas within two months......

Forget it....its every country for itself ..in todays world scenario.



graphican said:


> You would can only see the world through the goggles of Politics or Religious discrimination as Brahmins, Ksatriyas, vaisyas and Sudras but in spite of being in bad shape, Muslims are united.



Ahh...the same old rant......we are one...but you are not.... where is this unity right now......you guys cant even come out in open and confront those terrorist who kill your own countrymen day in day out.



graphican said:


> Even for Ghazwatuhind, we know Pakistan will be destroyed and its very likely that most Pakistanis would die within couple of days of fight but its the Ummah who would join hands with few left Muslims in Pakistan and will fight and defeat India. We will chain Indian Leaders and this is what Holy Prophet PBUH has for-told us.



The great Ghazwatuhind ....a fools paradise.......live in it for as long as you can.......but if you can save your country from Ghazwatupak....


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## makikirkiri

> You would can only see the world through the goggles of Politics or Religious discrimination as Brahmins, Ksatriyas, vaisyas and Sudras but in spite of being in bad shape, Muslims are united


 Well you are oversimplifying the matter. There are more than 150 different castes and more than 15 major languages in India and evryone sees the other through the eyes of caste and language etcetcetc. A lot needs to be done regarding this matter .However all non-hindus must know that acc to hindu scriptures one acquires caste by the profession he chooses but not by his birth. The caste system as it is today,, is not a religious evil but just a social evil.
However even under such circumstances prevailing internally when we see the rest of the world we see the world from the point of view of"INDIA".


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## makikirkiri

> Originally Posted by graphican
> Even for Ghazwatuhind, we know Pakistan will be destroyed and its very likely that most Pakistanis would die within couple of days of fight but its the Ummah who would join hands with few left Muslims in Pakistan and will fight and defeat India. We will chain Indian Leaders and this is what Holy Prophet PBUH has for-told us.


 When educated(rational+tolerant) people like you(ppl in this forum generally are) talk of mass suicidal military adventure just for the sake of a prophecy no wonder your country produces the highest number of suicide bombers.Yes we Indians must be really stupid sinners to be producing second highest number of engineers instead of islamic suicide bombers.Yes our country definitely needs to be eliminated for Allah's benevolence to be disbursed on you.

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## Windjammer

makikirkiri said:


> When educated(rational+tolerant) people like you(ppl in this forum generally are) talk of mass suicidal military adventure just for the sake of a prophecy no wonder your country produces the highest number of suicide bombers.Yes we Indians must be really stupid sinners to be producing second highest number of engineers instead of islamic suicide bombers.Yes our country definitely needs to be eliminated for Allah's benevolence to be disbursed on you.



Here you go again, comparing and competing with Pakistan again alas 160 Million vis 1.2 Billion. But then again living in a nut shell seldom enhances your capabilities. You guys may well be producing X amount of engineers but you also have the child labor sweat shops of un parallel proportions and not forgetting conducting biggest genocides of modern times, and while apartheid has been eliminated in countries like South Africa, Caste system in your country thrives un challenged.
And let's get this right, we produce suicide bombers so they can attack our people and cities. How very logical of your mind set.


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## Spring Onion

i wanted to discuss too but then i know the writer personally and i know he is paid and visits India 


he is spewing venom every now and then while sitting in canada being paid by those who wants to divert attention from attrocities against Kashmiris in Indian Held Kashmir.

we fight almost daily over his alleged role against Pakistan. (still as he is elder i respect him and he also knows he is wrong but doesnt admit)


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## ssheppard

Jana said:


> i wanted to discuss too but then i know the writer personally and i know he is paid and visits India
> 
> 
> he is spewing venom every now and then while sitting in canada being paid by those who wants to divert attention from attrocities against Kashmiris in Indian Held Kashmir.
> 
> we fight almost daily over his alleged role against Pakistan. (still as he is elder i respect him and he also knows he is wrong but doesnt admit)




Your Army Generals told same things to Pakistani Public ...while planning Operation Gibraltar.....

But you know the fate of that ......

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## haawk

even more important thing of this *indian* muslim *is that he is from kashmir!!!*SRINAGAR: Ever since Jammu & Kashmir became part of India, there has never been a Kashmiri Muslim general in the Army. This has now been remedied. 

With the elevation of Brigadier Mohammad Amin Naik to the post of Major General, Kashmiris, who have historically felt alienated from the mainstream, would now have one grievance less



His father Ghulam Nabi Naik, a retired divisional commissioner, J&K, says, "I am thrilled to learn that my son has achieved the distinction of becoming Major General of the Indian Army." Recalling General Naik's childhood, the father said, "Amin was always enthusiastic and wanted to serve the nation and humanity." 


*Born* on September 25, 1953, at Tral in Pulwama district of *South Kashmir*, General Naik has another "first" to his credit: He was the first to join the army from the entire district. He is currently posted with Integrated Defence Staff Headquarters as its assistant chief


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## Spring Onion

makikirkiri said:


> These chinese are sooo.. dying to get their new found riches noticed by everyone.Yes Sir we know you have made progress and now please spare this forum of your "I want all the attention on to my new found riches and boast about and taunt others syndrome":



i think only Indians are boastful of the riches while always remain in denial when it comes to millions of poor


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## Windjammer

haawk said:


> even more important thing of this *indian* muslim *is that he is from kashmir!!!*SRINAGAR: Ever since Jammu & Kashmir became part of India, there has never been a Kashmiri Muslim general in the Army. This has now been remedied.
> 
> With the elevation of Brigadier Mohammad Amin Naik to the post of Major General, Kashmiris, who have historically felt alienated from the mainstream, would now have one grievance less
> 
> 
> 
> His father Ghulam Nabi Naik, a retired divisional commissioner, J&K, says, "I am thrilled to learn that my son has achieved the distinction of becoming Major General of the Indian Army." Recalling General Naik's childhood, the father said, "Amin was always enthusiastic and wanted to serve the nation and humanity."
> 
> 
> *Born* on September 25, 1953, at Tral in Pulwama district of *South Kashmir*, General Naik has another "first" to his credit: He was the first to join the army from the entire district. He is currently posted with Integrated Defence Staff Headquarters as its assistant chief


It all sounds good and seems honky dory, but you have had Muslim presidents and Sikh PMs not forgetting Laloo Parsad, I don't see those minorities making a song and dance , what to say of a General giving any cause for rejoice.


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## EjazR

*@shhhahuuu*
You are confusing socio-economic problems with freedom of religion. Indian muslims may be around 3-4&#37; in the army and its not because they don't want to join the army as some people believe. There is a historic reason that most of the Indian muslims in the army went to Pakistan when the British Indian army was being divided. So two things need to happen, Indian muslims will themselves have to step up to the plate and the GoI should also encourage recruitment from all ethnic and religious groups to give the army a more holistic composition.

But this has NOTHING to do with freedom of religion. Even if there was not a single Muslim in the Indian army, muslims can still have freedom of religion. The Indian constitution provides to freedom to practice and preach any religion. Muslims along with other religious groups have their own personal laws that pertain to their personal life like marriage, inheritance e.t.c in accordance with their faith. Is there any other country in the world that provides this legal provision? This is freedom of religion that I was talking about.

So what I said still holds.



graphican said:


> Hello Ejaz,
> 
> Sure we can leave Kashmires in peace if they are happy living with India. After all Pakistan has never offered its support to the people of Dakan who are not activly looking for it. So if Kashmires say we do not want freedom, we will be happy for them. There is no Zabardasti. So what is the best way to know if Kashmires want to stay with India or Pakistan? Indian Elections or a Plebiscite?


Well I'm talking about groups that specifically claim that they will establish a "Islamic" state in Kashmir (i.e. LeT, Hizb e.t.c.). There is no denying that there is significant sentiment for *Independence *in the border districts. But every single mainstream separatist group have advocated peaceful resolution. These Jihadi groups then assassinate if any kashmiri leader advocates joining India or even Independence. They even indulge in attacks to media outlets that criticize them. Is this justified?

The plebescite is not the solution for reasons I don't want to go in this thread. And these are statements from high ranking Pakistani negotiators as well. Opinion polls have been conducted though which an idea of what Kashmiris want can be gleaned. I suggest you go though the Kashmir conflict report on www.peacepolls.org




graphican said:


> Regarding Muslims of Uighur, being a Muslim you can better understand that Jihad is not against "India" or "Israel". Jihad is universal and who ever is going against Islam will have to face it, so do the occupying forces of Uighur. But if you want to ask which Jihad should be fought first then the Jihad that has taken more Muslim Lives than the other is the obvious priority, no surprise its Kashmir and Palestine. Would you disagrees with that?



Yes unfortunately Jihad has been twisted and perverted and its the fault of muslims alone for making Jihad into some sort of a dangerous word today. 

Jihad in the Islamic context, and in literal sense, the word jihad simply means a struggle&#8212;doing one&#8217;s utmost to further a worthy cause. This is an entirely peaceful struggle, with no overtones even of aggression. The actual Arabic equivalent of war, is qital or harb, and even this is meant in a defensive sense in the Quran.

I don't want to talk about Jihad bil Qitaal as everyone is aware of that, but this is used in only 2-3 verses out of the 6600+ verses in the Quran. Moreover, it is NOT some continuous fighting. Jihad is continous yes(I will explain this later) but not Jihad vil Qitaal. This is only a small part of Jihad and is only the last resort. There are special conditions for initiating it such as it can only be done by a state and how it should be conducted. Most importantly if there is freedom of religion there is no applicability of Jihad. If the GoP feels that it should militarily take over Kashmir. It should revoke peace treaties with Indian and THEN declare war. Only then these proxy groups can be allowed to fight. The problem is that these groups are BASED in Pakistani Kashmir. The United Jihad Council has offices in Muzaffarabad and issues press statements and recruits people.

On casualty figures, according to offcial figures about 50,000 have been killed in the 20 year conflict and that includes civilians, security forces and militants. Out of which 15000+ muslims alone have been killed by militants. Is this the "Jihad" that is suppose to protect the innocents as a last resort? Palestine and Kashmir are completely separate issues when you look at the scale of human right abuses. When was the last time Kashmiris were put in refugee camps and bombarded with white phosphorus? 





Now on your insistence of Jihad as a continuous struggle, I feel compelled to go a little off-topic to discuss the concept of Jihad as you are only partially correct.

The predominant use of Jihad in Quran and Hadith is with the sense of striving or struggling for betterment of one's self or society. Unfortunately this meaning has been completely forgotten by muslims, what to talk about non-muslims.

Jihad in the Qur&#8217;an means striving to the utmost to present the teachings of the Qur&#8217;an before the people including to muslims themselves and thus to inculcate good values in them. That is, presenting the concept of One God, presenting akhirah-oriented life as superior to world-oriented life; principle-oriented life as against selfishness-oriented life; a humanitarian-oriented life as more elevated than a self-oriented life and a duty-oriented life as a categorical imperative taking moral precedence over a rights-oriented life.

So Jihad, according to Islam, is simply a natural requirement of daily living. It is vital both as a concept and as a practice because, while leading his life in this world, man is repeatedly confronted by such circumstances as are likely to derail him from the humanitarian path if he/she doesn't continue to strive and struggle to the morally right path. The re-assertion of his ethical sense is the real jihad which he has to wage.

From the Islamic standpoint, intention is all-important. Any undertaking carried out with good intentions will win God&#8217;s approval, while anything done with bad intentions is bound to be disapproved of and rejected by God. In actual fact, intentions are the sole criteria of good or bad actions in the divine scheme of things.

This truth relates jihad to man&#8217;s entire life and to all of his activities. Whatever man does in this world, be it at home, or in his professional capacity, in family or in social life, his prime imperative must be to carry it out with good intentions and not the reverse. This, however, is no simple matter. In all one&#8217;s dealings, adhering strictly to the right path requires a continuous struggle. Resisting temptation weather it is premarital sex, or alcohol or cheating your customer or taking bribes e.t.c. is part of the continuous Jihad bin nafs(self). This is a great and unremitting lifelong struggle and is rightly called Jihad-e-Akbar. And this is what is called jihad in the context you mentioned. It is NOT some lifelong violence that these so called "Jihadi" groups want you to believe.

Even if one is engaged in good works, such as the establishment and running of institutions which cater for social welfare or academic needs, or if one is personally engaged in social work or performing some service in the political field like protesting against injustices of the government whether they be against muslims or non-muslims, in all such works the element of personal glory has a way of creeping in. Therefore, in all such instances, it is essential that in the individuals concerned there should be a strong tendency to introspection, so that they may keep before them at all times the goal, not of personal glory but the greater glory of God alone. This effort is then also the struggle or Jihad that a person will be rewarded.

It is one&#8217;s intense inner struggle to make all activities God-oriented which makes it so powerful a concept and this is Jihad.

You can check this out for further reading:
Islam, Peace and Justice: The Concept of Jihad in Islam
The True Jihad: The Concepts Of Peace, Tolerance And Non-violence In Islam

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## EjazR

General Amin Naik is the first Kashmiri to reach rank of Major General, otherwise there are plenty of Indian muslims who have reached high posts. Example Idris Lateef was chief of Air staff and even during war time held important position: chief of planning (air staff) in 65 and Commander of air defence (Eastern Command) in 1971 for which he got a medal for distinguished service as well.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> *Official results of GB polls announced*
> 
> Is that so? So what exactly is Pakistan's Election commission doing conducting elections (Nov09) in the G-B areas where PPP (a mainstream Pakistani political party) won 11 seats while PMN-L (another mainstream Pakistani political party) won 2 seats? Why were these parties and others like MQM allowed to partake in elections, conducted by Pakistani election commission, in an area which, according to your post, is not Pakistan's sovereign territory?
> 
> Why isnt G-B part of "Azad Kashmir" or a more politically correct term "P-0-K?
> 
> _What were you saying again? You, debunked a rant?_


Because you don't have to create brand new infrastructure for a new Election commission. And the political parties contesting in G-B did so with candidates from G-B, along with independent candidates and some from local parties. People from G-B chose to join these parties and contest elections under them and vote for them.

Until the dispute is resolved, the territory must be administered in some fashion - since the UNSC resolutions did not provide a format of what that administration is supposed to look like, the controlling entity can administer the region as it sees fit, provided we do not annex it into Pakistan.

We could split it into 4 territories instead of 2 for example, if we thought it would allow better administration.

And since it is not a part of Pakistan under the Pakistani constitution, my point on the 'annexation argument being debunked' stands.

You, and the author, are clutching at straws to make the case of 'annexed' when it is clearly not.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

EjazR said:


> General Amin Naik is the first Kashmiri to reach rank of Major General, otherwise there are plenty of Indian muslims who have reached high posts. Example Idris Lateef was chief of Air staff and even during war time held important position: chief of planning (air staff) in 65 and Commander of air defence (Eastern Command) in 1971 for which he got a medal for distinguished service as well.



Awesome - they love you, and hate Pakistan, how about implementing that commitment to the UNSC resolutions and holding a referendum now ...


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## haawk

Windjammer said:


> It all sounds good and seems honky dory, but you have had Muslim presidents and Sikh PMs not forgetting Laloo Parsad, I don't see those minorities making a song and dance , what to say of a General giving any cause for rejoice.



i posted the stuff because one of your ranting colegue asked if there was any muslim general in the IA but we gave a reply with a irony --- a kashmiri-whose land you say should belong to pakistan is fighiting your *** off for his nation(india). that was the irony.....

and just come to india and say the name abdul kalam....you will see the praise and love this nation has for him.........oue very own" missile man"....the irony again that shows your nations so called pity for indian muslims is unwanted coz they are designing missiles to be launched against you .......


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Awesome - they love you, and hate Pakistan, how about implementing that commitment to the UNSC resolutions and holding a referendum now ...


Since you mentioned UNSC and referendum in the same sentence, have the tribals and Pakistani nationals packed up and moved? Is the current situation reflective of pre-conflict situation?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> Since you mentioned UNSC and referendum in the same sentence, have the tribals and Pakistani nationals packed up and moved? Is the current situation reflective of pre-conflict situation?



I think they have - in any case, if they havn't, the preparations by the UN in registering voters, both inside J&K and outside (musn't forget the pandits who migrated or the millions settled in Europe, especially the UK), before a plebiscite takes place, could always settle that issue.

What is needed is the will to proceed forward with the plebisicte, the associated issues can be handled one way or another before the actual votes are cast. That these tertiary issues are raised as arguments against plebiscite speaks primarily to the obstructionist attitude of Indians and the GoI and an attempt to find any excuse, however lame, to not sumbit to the will of the Kashmiris as promised them by the UNSC resolutions and the GoI and GoP in accepting them.


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## Windjammer

haawk said:


> i posted the stuff because one of your ranting colegue asked if there was any muslim general in the IA but we gave a reply with a irony --- a kashmiri-whose land you say should belong to pakistan is fighiting your *** off for his nation(india). that was the irony.....
> 
> and just come to india and say the name abdul kalam....you will see the praise and love this nation has for him.........oue very own" missile man"....the irony again that shows your nations so called pity for indian muslims is unwanted coz they are designing missiles to be launched against you .......


Yes it's these very Muslims in India who are often reminded of their second class citizenship otherwise told to migrate to Pakistan.
Perhaps you should leave your missiles in the hands of Muslims to test fire them for you as well, who knows it may give you something to gloat about.


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## AliFarooq

It's funny when we bring up Kashmir, indian members bring up the tribal areas of pakistan.

Try not divert the issue of kashmir, by talking about tribal areas of Pak, plus *Kashmir cannot be compared to Tribal area's of Pakistan. Kashmir is a disputed area between two countries and tribal areas of pakistan is not a disputed territory.*

If you want to compare the tribal areas of Pak, you can compare them with, Asam and such areas in India that want to be independent.


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## Bullhead

Windjammer said:


> Yes it's these very Muslims in India who are often reminded of their second class citizenship otherwise told to migrate to Pakistan.
> Perhaps you should leave your missiles in the hands of Muslims to test fire them for you as well, who knows it may give you something to gloat about.



This kind of stuff happens in your Pakistani media..and pakistani text books...... may be this is your way to pcify your egos....that can not digest tha fact that muslims are living in a hindu dominated country....you want to feel good by trying to dream of a situation wher you think than Indian muslims made a mistake staying back in India ....flouting Muslim believe that Hindus and muslims can not live under same gov government under similar laws.......irrespecctive of the fact that Pakistan could not stay one and got divided within 30 yrs of creatioon


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Bullhead said:


> ....that can not digest tha fact that muslims are living in a hindu dominated country....



Would that be akin to Indians not being able to digest the fact that many Muslims, including perhaps those in Kashmir, did not/do not want to live in a 'secular India'?

Wouldn't that explain why so much of Indian history and Indian commentators demonize Jinnah and Pakistan and try to dig up a 'British Conspiracy' in partition, or blame it on anythign other than a popular peoples movement, so as to not confront the fact that the people of the lands comprising Pakistan wanted nothing to do with India?

Wouldn't that explain why India and Indians are so admantly opposed to holding a plebscite in J&K, despite accepting the validity of that solution and commmiting to the UNSC resolutions on Kashmir? Indians don't really want to face the thought that Kashmiris would reject this 'secular India' and choose Pakistan, and in order to not face that posibility, they are willing to violate the rights of Kashmiris to plebiscite and continue occupation.


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## Windjammer

Bullhead said:


> This kind of stuff happens in your Pakistani media..and pakistani text books...... may be this is your way to pcify your egos....that can not digest tha fact that muslims are living in a hindu dominated country....you want to feel good by trying to dream of a situation wher you think than Indian muslims made a mistake staying back in India ....flouting Muslim believe that Hindus and muslims can not live under same gov government under similar laws.......irrespecctive of the fact that Pakistan could not stay one and got divided within 30 yrs of creatioon



And i suppose the Golden Temple blood shed, the destruction of Babri Mosque and the Gujrat genocide are just minor glitches in a thriving secular society, and keep in mind, there are over a dozen insurgent movements across India, basically no other country in the world has so many disgruntled and oppressed citizens.


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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Because you don't have to create brand new infrastructure for a new Election commission. And the political parties contesting in G-B did so with candidates from G-B, along with independent candidates and some from local parties. People from G-B chose to join these parties and contest elections under them and vote for them.
> 
> Until the dispute is resolved, the territory must be administered in some fashion - since the UNSC resolutions did not provide a format of what that administration is supposed to look like, the controlling entity can administer the region as it sees fit, provided we do not annex it into Pakistan.
> 
> We could split it into 4 territories instead of 2 for example, if we thought it would allow better administration.
> 
> And since it is not a part of Pakistan under the Pakistani constitution, my point on the 'annexation argument being debunked' stands.
> 
> You, and the author, are clutching at straws to make the case of 'annexed' when it is clearly not.



No one said anything about G-B being "officially" annexed. But for all practical purposes it is considered as a part of Pakistan, with Azad Kashmir (actually P-0-K) a feeble attempt at showing how concerned Pakistan is for the plight of Kashmiris! (Spare us the drama!)

As to your argument about the want of a proper administrative apparatus in place, India has been doing a far better job at that, albeit, considering those Kashmiris as Indian citizens, granting them special privileges under the Indian constitution, and accepting openly that Jammu & Kashmir is an integral part of India! 

UNSC 'does not provide provisions to administer occupied territories' is a flawed argument. There are many other universally agreed upon treaties and accords (I am not very well versed with them, but they do come up with regards to the Palestinian territories - but I think it the 4th Geneva Convention which stipulates how occupied territories are to be administered) which provide guidelines as to how occupied territories should be governed. You cannot twist and take out of context various guidelines to suit your needs or apparent wrong doings and then accuse the other party of violating resolutions. Pakistan also stands guilty to moving people from other territories into its occupied part of Kashmir (now isn't that against some international agreement?)

Question: What does Pakistan's constitution say about Kashmir and any special provisions as per its status and administration?


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## boxer_B

Windjammer said:


> And i suppose the Golden Temple blood shed, the destruction of Babri Mosque and the Gujrat genocide are just minor glitches in a thriving secular society, and keep in mind, there are over a dozen insurgent movements across India, basically no other country in the world has so many disgruntled and oppressed citizens.



*brilliant rant*....did you wrote it just now or copy pasted from a text file named guzw-ul-hind? I take Brainwashing and its side effects!

Wake up! As per other Pakistani's there are over 100 insurgencies in India yet 

> i *fail* to see Indian Army positioned anywhere rolling with their tanks and calling for air strikes. 

> I *fail* to see any curfew or media blackout. 

> I *fail* to see why this Un-Secular India wont put a last fight using most state of the art tech with all insurgencies if it was to be reduced in tatters. 

> I *fail* to see Indian army not resting in bunkers. 

> I *fail* to see oppressed citizens taking asylum in neighboring countries en masses. 

> I *fail* to see how India is not economically thriving inspite of disgruntled citizens. 

> I *fail* to see how minority population is not increasing. 

> I *fail* to see how they end up not taking PM or president or COAS post. 

> I *fail* to see how they do not capture and hand over soldiers of countries that fight for their freedom. 

> I *fail* to see how Gujrat has not emerged as economy beacon after riots. 

> I *fail* to see how arabs and turks are not lined up in new delhi for treaties and cooperation

> I *fail* to see how masjid's not attacked in land of pure.

> I *fail* to see how 10x muslims not killed in Pakistan as compared to riots in India.

Sorry brother, i dont have answer to any of your allegations, *I failed*

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> No one said anything about G-B being "officially" annexed. But for all practical purposes it is considered as a part of Pakistan, with Azad Kashmir (actually P-0-K) a feeble attempt at showing how concerned Pakistan is for the plight of Kashmiris! (Spare us the drama!)


What does 'annexed' mean then? Do you even realize that so long as the territory remains disputed and under the control of India and Pakistan, the two countries have to administer it and put in place mechanisms for governance as they see fit.

So keep clutching at straws - the only illegal annexation that has taken place is that by India in which India refuses to implement the UNSC resolutions and has made J&K a part of India under its constitution.

There is no 'drama' as you put it in Pakistan and Pakistanis raising awareness about the plight of Kashmiris - the hundreds of thousands of Indian troops deployed to quell the Kashmiri separatism and deny them the right to plebiscite under the UNSC resolutions is more than ample evidence that Pakistan's concerns over 'Kashmiri plight' are legitemate and valid.


> As to your argument about the want of a proper administrative apparatus in place, India has been doing a far better job at that, albeit, considering those Kashmiris as Indian citizens, granting them special privileges under the Indian constitution, and accepting openly that Jammu & Kashmir is an integral part of India!


If you feel India has done a better job of putting in place an administrative apparatus, good for you - then the Kashmiris should recognize how poor a job Pakistan has done and vote for India in a plebiscite, which India continues to deny them in violation of its commitment to the UNSC resolutions. But, none of that supports your or the author's argument that G-B has been 'annexed' by Pakistan.



> UNSC 'does not provide provisions to administer occupied territories' is a flawed argument. There are many other universally agreed upon treaties and accords (I am not very well versed with them, but they do come up with regards to the Palestinian territories - but I think it the 4th Geneva Convention which stipulates how occupied territories are to be administered) which provide guidelines as to how occupied territories should be governed. You cannot twist and take out of context various guidelines to suit your needs or apparent wrong doings and then accuse the other party of violating resolutions. Pakistan also stands guilty to moving people from other territories into its occupied part of Kashmir (now isn't that against some international agreement?)



What treaties and accords apply to J&K, in terms of the administrative structure that is to be put in place that Pakistan is violating by putting in place the administrative structure that it has? Just because various treaties and accords pertaining to other conflicts exist that does not mean Pakistan is obligated to also implement them in administering GB and AK.

You have failed to establish how the administrative measures put in place by Pakistan in either AK or GB amount to an 'annexation' or change the status of those territories to being a part of Pakistan, or how those measures are in violation of the UNSC resolutions or any accord the Pakistan is obligated to implement.

As to the settlement of outsiders in G-B under Zia, AFAIK it was wrong, limited and stopped after violence broke out and Zia died and has not impacted the demographic balance of the region. If you have independent statistics supporting your position that it is widespread and has changed the demographic balance then please share them.



> Question: What does Pakistan's constitution say about Kashmir and any special provisions as per its status and administration?



*" 257. Provision relating to the State of Jammu and Kashmir.
When the people of the State of Jammu and Kashmir decide to accede to Pakistan, the relationship between Pakistan and the State shall be determined in accordance with the wishes of the people of that State."*

[Chapter 4: General] of [Part XII: Miscellaneous]


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I think they have...


Then UN is surely sleeping. They forgot to serve that notice on us.


> ...if they havn't, the preparations by the UN in registering voters, both inside J&K and outside (musn't forget the pandits who migrated or the millions settled in Europe, especially the UK), before a plebiscite takes place, could always
> 
> settle that issue.


UN gets to do whatever it wants to, only after it is satisfied that Pakistan has met all the obligations. Once those obligations are met, there is nothing that India can do to prevent plebiscite.

It appears from UN's silence, they are not convinced yet.


> What is needed is the will to proceed forward with the plebisicte, the associated issues can be handled one way or another before the actual votes are cast. That these tertiary issues are raised as arguments against plebiscite speaks primarily to the obstructionist attitude of Indians and the GoI and an attempt to find any excuse, however lame, to not sumbit to the will of the Kashmiris as promised them by the UNSC resolutions and the GoI and GoP in accepting them.


Same ol' appeal to emotion. 'Will', 'obscurantism', yada yada yada. 

Apparently UN felt that these issues are not as 'tertiary' as Pakistanis would have themselves believe. Perhaps thats why UN wanted these issues to be solved before the plebiscite process could kick start. Not the other way round.

It is always amusing to see how Pakistanis on one hand want plebiscite as per UNSC resolutions, and on the other hand recoil at the very thought of doing their part as per the same UNSC resolutions. If one reminds them of their part, one is of course using 'lame excuses' to indulge in 'obscurantism'.

No one will however bother to explain why Pakistan is exempt from showing its willingness to 'submit to the will of Kashmiris', not merely by rhetoric, but by pure gesture.

Removing its citizens from the valley would appear to be a great start. 

We continue to wait.


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ...the only illegal annexation that has taken place is that by India in which India refuses to implement the UNSC resolutions and has made J&K a part of India under its constitution.


Instrument of Accession gives India the _locus standi_. 

India is not bound by any UNSC resolutions as long as Pakistan refuses to implement those very resolutions.


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## Windjammer

boxer_B said:


> *brilliant rant*....did you wrote it just now or copy pasted from a text file named guzw-ul-hind? I take Brainwashing and its side effects!
> 
> Wake up! As per other Pakistani's there are over 100 insurgencies in India yet
> 
> > i *fail* to see Indian Army positioned anywhere rolling with their tanks and calling for air strikes.
> 
> > I *fail* to see any curfew or media blackout.
> 
> > I *fail* to see why this Un-Secular India wont put a last fight using most state of the art tech with all insurgencies if it was to be reduced in tatters.
> 
> > I *fail* to see Indian army not resting in bunkers.
> 
> > I *fail* to see oppressed citizens taking asylum in neighboring countries en masses.
> 
> > I *fail* to see how India is not economically thriving inspite of disgruntled citizens.
> 
> > I *fail* to see how minority population is not increasing.
> 
> > I *fail* to see how they end up not taking PM or president or COAS post.
> 
> > I *fail* to see how they do not capture and hand over soldiers of countries that fight for their freedom.
> 
> > I *fail* to see how Gujrat has not emerged as economy beacon after riots.
> 
> > I *fail* to see how arabs and turks are not lined up in new delhi for treaties and cooperation
> 
> > I *fail* to see how masjid's not attacked in land of pure.
> 
> > I *fail* to see how 10x muslims not killed in Pakistan as compared to riots in India.
> 
> Sorry brother, i dont have answer to any of your allegations, *I failed*


So far i am oblivious to the sticky thorn in your flesh allegedly called Ghazwa-e-Hind or something but it's obvious you are gloating the essence of India shining mis perception. We never fail to acknowledge the fact like many others we too have our problems but hey in the same breath we certainly don't make tall and frivolous claims.
What you have really failed to see is that our top brass certainly don't rant hysterical terminologies as Cold Start, Surgical Strikes, Hot Pursuits or threaten a limited war, while the edgy foot soldiers are either blasting them selves or wasting their colleagues in no uncertain manner.!!!!!!!!!


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## toxic_pus

Windjammer said:


> ...our top brass certainly don't rant hysterical terminologies as Cold Start, Surgical Strikes, Hot Pursuits or threaten a limited war, while the edgy foot soldiers are either blasting them selves or wasting their colleagues in no uncertain manner.!!!!!!!!!


If only you knew how your 'top brass' thought like during the times of actual wars, viz '47, '65, 71, '99.


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## Windjammer

toxic_pus said:


> If only you knew how your 'top brass' thought like during the times of actual wars, viz '47, '65, 71, '99.



With the exception of 1971, which can only be termed as an International conspiracy, the Pakistan top brass, thought, executed and proved their mettle to India's detriment.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> Then UN is surely sleeping. They forgot to serve that notice on us.
> 
> UN gets to do whatever it wants to, only after it is satisfied that Pakistan has met all the obligations. Once those obligations are met, there is nothing that India can do to prevent plebiscite.
> 
> It appears from UN's silence, they are not convinced yet.


Nonsense - the UN will act once India and Pakistan come to an agreement on withdrawal of forces and inform the UN of that. That was the original sticking point. Since then India has refused to implement the UNSC resolutions, period. Which leaves little to move on.


> Same ol' appeal to emotion. 'Will', 'obscurantism', yada yada yada.
> 
> Apparently UN felt that these issues are not as 'tertiary' as Pakistanis would have themselves believe. Perhaps thats why UN wanted these issues to be solved before the plebiscite process could kick start. Not the other way round.
> 
> It is always amusing to see how Pakistanis on one hand want plebiscite as per UNSC resolutions, and on the other hand recoil at the very thought of doing their part as per the same UNSC resolutions. If one reminds them of their part, one is of course using 'lame excuses' to indulge in 'obscurantism'.
> 
> No one will however bother to explain why Pakistan is exempt from showing its willingness to 'submit to the will of Kashmiris', not merely by rhetoric, but by pure gesture.
> 
> Removing its citizens from the valley would appear to be a great start.
> 
> We continue to wait.


If India want's these issues to be resolved, then India needs to reverse its stand on the UNSC resolutions, agree to implement them, and start negotiations on a bilateral withdrawal (as mentioned in the UNSC resolutions) and the various other issues involved. 

As argued in the UN resolutions thread - contrary to Indian propaganda, the UN resolutions do not call for a unilateral withdrawal by Pakistani forces - they call for negotiations between India, Pakistan and a UN appointed commission/rapporteur to determine how to arrive at that point. Those negotiations were stalled by India back then, and continue to be stalled by India, no due to her backtracking from her commitment to the UNSC resolutions.

It is disingenuous to argue that it is India that is 'waiting' when it is India that blatantly violated its commitment to the UNSC resolutions and refuses to implement them. You cannot demand that XYZ be implemented when you blatantly reject the document that calls for XYZ.

And there are no great numbers of Pakistani citizens in the valley beyond the soldiers needed to stop Indian aggression.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> Instrument of Accession gives India the _locus standi_.
> 
> India is not bound by any UNSC resolutions as long as Pakistan refuses to implement those very resolutions.


The accession was itself subject to plebiscite, indicated in Mountbatten's acceptance of the instrument of accession (as was done in Junagadh), a position that was endorsed by India's leaders repeatedly - which was never conducted, so you have no locus standi. 

And the GoI took the issue to the UNSC, and accepted the recommendations issued there, which also pointed out the disputed nature of the state.


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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> the only illegal annexation that has taken place is that by India in which India refuses to implement the UNSC resolutions and has made J&K a part of India under its constitution.


A victorious military/power can annex an occupied territory (again some treaty says that) - plebiscite or no plebiscite. Indian forces were "invited" into Kashmir by the then administration and India agreed on the condition that J&K cedes to the Indian Union. Rest as they say is history. *Theres nothing illegal about India annexing J&K*. What is illegal is keeping people of P-0-K in a state of suspended nationality a la population of Golan Heights - _na ghar ke na ghat ke_.


> There is no 'drama' as you put it in Pakistan and Pakistanis raising awareness about the plight of Kashmiris - the hundreds of thousands of Indian troops deployed to quell the Kashmiri separatism and deny them the right to plebiscite under the UNSC resolutions is more than ample evidence that Pakistan's concerns over 'Kashmiri plight' are legitemate and valid.


Yup, so much concern for a people instigated/bullied/scared into picking up arms against the Indian machinery or more shamelessly by pushing trained terrorists who have nothing to do with Kashmiris in an attempt to "help" the "freedom struggle".

As Bushy and EjazR pointed out earlier, the homegrown seperatist movements have largely given up armed struggle opting to participate in a political process. Those using arms are not Kashmiris but terrorists pushed from across the border and the Indian Forces are there to give them a warm "welcome" with molten lead!


> If you feel India has done a better job of putting in place an administrative apparatus, good for you - then the Kashmiris should recognize how poor a job Pakistan has done and vote for India in a plebiscite, which India continues to deny them in violation of its commitment to the UNSC resolutions. But, none of that supports your or the author's argument that G-B has been 'annexed' by Pakistan.


UNSC resolutions apply for a "disputed" territory. India does not see J&K as disputed now. That territory is an integral part of India and will remain so. Therefore wouldnt UNSC resolutions be nullified now? If so the question of Plebiscite does not arise. What is being done is attempts to provide a better autonomy model to the Kashmiris within the framework of the Indian Constitution. Now what does Pakistan provide that you all feel that these very Kashmiris will vote for Pakistan in a referendum?


> What treaties and accords apply to J&K, in terms of the administrative structure that is to be put in place that Pakistan is violating by putting in place the administrative structure that it has? Just because various treaties and accords pertaining to other conflicts exist that does not mean Pakistan is obligated to also implement them in administering GB and AK.


Then why make all those noises about "freedom" for Kashmir? You do understand what "Freedom" means right? Why not just let them be, instead of being an occupying force? So much for moral support, wheres that morality exactly? (Now India considers J&K as an Indian Union state, not a 'disputed' area or 'occupied' territory!)


> *" 257. Provision relating to the State of Jammu and Kashmir.
> When the people of the State of Jammu and Kashmir decide to accede to Pakistan, the relationship between Pakistan and the State shall be determined in accordance with the wishes of the people of that State."*
> 
> [Chapter 4: General] of [Part XII: Miscellaneous]



I asked what does Pakistan's constitution presently provide for the Kashmiris under your occupation now - with regards to their status, nationality, rights, etc? That would probably answer the question of "annexation".


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## graphican

EjazR said:


> *@shhhahuuu*
> You are confusing socio-economic problems with freedom of religion. Indian muslims may be around 3-4&#37; in the army and its not because they don't want to join the army as some people believe. There is a historic reason that most of the Indian muslims in the army went to Pakistan when the British Indian army was being divided. So two things need to happen, Indian muslims will themselves have to step up to the plate and the GoI should also encourage recruitment from all ethnic and religious groups to give the army a more holistic composition.
> 
> But this has NOTHING to do with freedom of religion. Even if there was not a single Muslim in the Indian army, muslims can still have freedom of religion. The Indian constitution provides to freedom to practice and preach any religion. Muslims along with other religious groups have their own personal laws that pertain to their personal life like marriage, inheritance e.t.c in accordance with their faith. Is there any other country in the world that provides this legal provision? This is freedom of religion that I was talking about.
> 
> So what I said still holds.
> 
> 
> Well I'm talking about groups that specifically claim that they will establish a "Islamic" state in Kashmir (i.e. LeT, Hizb e.t.c.). There is no denying that there is significant sentiment for *Independence *in the border districts. But every single mainstream separatist group have advocated peaceful resolution. These Jihadi groups then assassinate if any kashmiri leader advocates joining India or even Independence. They even indulge in attacks to media outlets that criticize them. Is this justified?
> 
> The plebescite is not the solution for reasons I don't want to go in this thread. And these are statements from high ranking Pakistani negotiators as well. Opinion polls have been conducted though which an idea of what Kashmiris want can be gleaned. I suggest you go though the Kashmir conflict report on www.peacepolls.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes unfortunately Jihad has been twisted and perverted and its the fault of muslims alone for making Jihad into some sort of a dangerous word today.
> 
> Jihad in the Islamic context, and in literal sense, the word jihad simply means a struggle&#8212;doing one&#8217;s utmost to further a worthy cause. This is an entirely peaceful struggle, with no overtones even of aggression. The actual Arabic equivalent of war, is qital or harb, and even this is meant in a defensive sense in the Quran.
> 
> I don't want to talk about Jihad bil Qitaal as everyone is aware of that, but this is used in only 2-3 verses out of the 6600+ verses in the Quran. Moreover, it is NOT some continuous fighting. Jihad is continous yes(I will explain this later) but not Jihad vil Qitaal. This is only a small part of Jihad and is only the last resort. There are special conditions for initiating it such as it can only be done by a state and how it should be conducted. Most importantly if there is freedom of religion there is no applicability of Jihad. If the GoP feels that it should militarily take over Kashmir. It should revoke peace treaties with Indian and THEN declare war. Only then these proxy groups can be allowed to fight. The problem is that these groups are BASED in Pakistani Kashmir. The United Jihad Council has offices in Muzaffarabad and issues press statements and recruits people.
> 
> On casualty figures, according to offcial figures about 50,000 have been killed in the 20 year conflict and that includes civilians, security forces and militants. Out of which 15000+ muslims alone have been killed by militants. Is this the "Jihad" that is suppose to protect the innocents as a last resort? Palestine and Kashmir are completely separate issues when you look at the scale of human right abuses. When was the last time Kashmiris were put in refugee camps and bombarded with white phosphorus?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now on your insistence of Jihad as a continuous struggle, I feel compelled to go a little off-topic to discuss the concept of Jihad as you are only partially correct.
> 
> The predominant use of Jihad in Quran and Hadith is with the sense of striving or struggling for betterment of one's self or society. Unfortunately this meaning has been completely forgotten by muslims, what to talk about non-muslims.
> 
> Jihad in the Qur&#8217;an means striving to the utmost to present the teachings of the Qur&#8217;an before the people including to muslims themselves and thus to inculcate good values in them. That is, presenting the concept of One God, presenting akhirah-oriented life as superior to world-oriented life; principle-oriented life as against selfishness-oriented life; a humanitarian-oriented life as more elevated than a self-oriented life and a duty-oriented life as a categorical imperative taking moral precedence over a rights-oriented life.
> 
> So Jihad, according to Islam, is simply a natural requirement of daily living. It is vital both as a concept and as a practice because, while leading his life in this world, man is repeatedly confronted by such circumstances as are likely to derail him from the humanitarian path if he/she doesn't continue to strive and struggle to the morally right path. The re-assertion of his ethical sense is the real jihad which he has to wage.
> 
> From the Islamic standpoint, intention is all-important. Any undertaking carried out with good intentions will win God&#8217;s approval, while anything done with bad intentions is bound to be disapproved of and rejected by God. In actual fact, intentions are the sole criteria of good or bad actions in the divine scheme of things.
> 
> This truth relates jihad to man&#8217;s entire life and to all of his activities. Whatever man does in this world, be it at home, or in his professional capacity, in family or in social life, his prime imperative must be to carry it out with good intentions and not the reverse. This, however, is no simple matter. In all one&#8217;s dealings, adhering strictly to the right path requires a continuous struggle. Resisting temptation weather it is premarital sex, or alcohol or cheating your customer or taking bribes e.t.c. is part of the continuous Jihad bin nafs(self). This is a great and unremitting lifelong struggle and is rightly called Jihad-e-Akbar. And this is what is called jihad in the context you mentioned. It is NOT some lifelong violence that these so called "Jihadi" groups want you to believe.
> 
> Even if one is engaged in good works, such as the establishment and running of institutions which cater for social welfare or academic needs, or if one is personally engaged in social work or performing some service in the political field like protesting against injustices of the government whether they be against muslims or non-muslims, in all such works the element of personal glory has a way of creeping in. Therefore, in all such instances, it is essential that in the individuals concerned there should be a strong tendency to introspection, so that they may keep before them at all times the goal, not of personal glory but the greater glory of God alone. This effort is then also the struggle or Jihad that a person will be rewarded.
> 
> It is one&#8217;s intense inner struggle to make all activities God-oriented which makes it so powerful a concept and this is Jihad.
> 
> You can check this out for further reading:
> Islam, Peace and Justice: The Concept of Jihad in Islam
> The True Jihad: The Concepts Of Peace, Tolerance And Non-violence In Islam



Ejaz, 

You have taken your references from interpretation of *Moulana Wahiuddin Khan* and the effort is made by *Yoginder Sikand*. Niamat Ullah Khan Wali RA had told in his writing that there will be a time when Non-Muslims will interpret and tell Muslims what is true meaning of their religion. Whether I am right in my interpertation or not but do you think your learnings exactly the way it should have been and from the resources that you could trust without a shadow of doubt?

Jihad bil Qatal and Jihad bin Nafs are both Jihads. Do you remember the full Hadith in which Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWW told that you have arrieve towads Jihad-e-Akbar. The Sababhi RA was coming from Jihad bil Qatal when Holy Prophet Muhammad told him that now you are to face the Jihad that is even more hard. Can you quote a reference from Holy Prophet's life in which he would have stopped peple from going t Jihad bil Qatal because they were already doing Jihad-e-Akbar? This is not EITHER-OR or One to choose from the given two. Both Jihads are of equal value and when Muslims are in need, this Jihad is Farz, as Farz as offering Salat or Fasting. I am eager to learn more from you about Jihad but please study references that you could trust. Zionists know if only spirit of Jihaad is taken out of Muslims, whole Ummah will get down to its knees. Would you disagree with me on that?

What you are experiencing "Peace Peace Peace" is not new stretergy against Muslims. Read history of Undulusia and please do. There were same ulamaa who used to teac Muslims that its the peace that means most to the Muslims and Qatal and Bloodshed is very rarely needed. Its a humble request from you to learn how Kufar has been playig with us in the history how they have been deceiving us. 

Coming back to some cross-firing of Muslims in India, I agree Indian constitution says there is freedom to exercise religion. I can dig out 10s of incidents but for now, how can one explain two incidents in the light of this "freedom". 
1- Demise of Babri Mosque by Hindu Extremist and that nothing has been done with the ones who are responsible. 
2- Why were thousands of Muslims assassinated in Gujurat and how Indian constitution came into play and saved Muslims there..? What has it done with the culprits?

I know you will argue that they are in the courts but still after 17+ years for Babri Mosque and 8+ years for The Muslim Massacre? Do you not see Justice has been delayed? Don't you even have questions about it?

Allama Mohammad Iqbal was not stupid my friend, neither Mohammad Ali Jinnah was. Why is that Secular India naming every weapon it has after Hidu Raja, Maharaja, Rivers, Bhagwan and Mataz they worship? Where is Muslim reflection in them? 

Coming back to Kashmir, you only see the picture of Jihad that India wants to show to its people but we see the picture of Jihad that Pakistan wants us to see. I presume both are not the "True Pictures" because both countries have their reasons to suppress or inflate that. Why don't you hear cries of sisters of Kashmir yourself? Why is Media abandoned there? Why aren't you ready to see that reality could exist beyond what you believe it to be? Open up your heart and mind and share with People in Pakistan that what is the true Picture there? Why did whole Kashmir came out on street without any Involvement from Pakistan last year? There are so many questions and Mashallah God has blessed you with enough intellect to explore and find reality yourself.

Another question from you my brother that why is Muslim presence in India only 3% instead of 14.3% as per demographics? Muslims are not in Kashmir alone but they are scattered throughout India or at least outside Kashmir too. So what is keeping them stay behind the rest? I am not talking of discrimination, but sense of being part of some society or country. Why is that not evident as you are portraying here?

*Yes unfortunately Jihad has been twisted and perverted and its the fault of muslims alone for making Jihad into some sort of a dangerous word today. 
*

If you think Jihad has been poluted then can you imagine who could have done so? Just a question because I have seen you are not illogical person so my question would help you answer yourself. Please dont reply me in haste, I have nothing to "fight" here, I am just putting few questions in your mind to answer yourself. May God help all of us, including you and me see the right path. 

Jazak-Allah-Khair.


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Nonsense - the UN will act once India and Pakistan come to an agreement on withdrawal of forces and inform the UN of that. That was the original sticking point. Since then India has refused to implement the UNSC resolutions, period. Which leaves little to move on.


Or perhaps its all sense. Maybe you are a bit rusty. So let me help you.


> ...the Commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistan nationals referred to in Part II A 2 hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council [...] and further, that the Pakistan forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir...


In other words the notice is to be served only after the tribesmen and Pakistani nationals have completely withdrawn from the occupied portion (and of course when Pakistan has started withdrawing its forces, which in any case can be achieved by any token gesture).

Your response was that they (the Pakistani nationals) probably have. Hence my quibble. The notice has nothing to do 'agreement on withdrawal' or real withdrawal. 

Besides, India doesn't get to implement UNSC resolutions unless Pakistan has done it first and that would be removal of 'tribesmen and Pakistani civilian' from the valley. No amount of putting the cart before the horse is going to change that inconvenient fact.


> If India want's these issues to be resolved, then India needs to reverse its stand on the UNSC resolutions, agree to implement them, and start negotiations on a bilateral withdrawal (as mentioned in the UNSC resolutions) and the various other issues involved.
> 
> As argued in the UN resolutions thread - contrary to Indian propaganda, the UN resolutions do not call for a unilateral withdrawal by Pakistani forces - they call for negotiations between India, Pakistan and a UN appointed commission/rapporteur to determine how to arrive at that point. Those negotiations were stalled by India back then, and continue to be stalled by India, no due to her backtracking from her commitment to the UNSC resolutions.
> 
> It is disingenuous to argue that it is India that is 'waiting' when it is India that blatantly violated its commitment to the UNSC resolutions and refuses to implement them. You cannot demand that XYZ be implemented when you blatantly reject the document that calls for XYZ.


Mostly strawman. I have not uttered a single word on 'withdrawal of Pakistani forces'. 

However, I would like you to point out the cases, where India has 'violated', if thats the word you want to use, the UNSC resolutions. The resolutions do not give a time frame for plebiscite and explicitly binds it with events, that are outside India's scope. Where is the 'violation' if a) India hasn't held a plebiscite till now, and b) refused to agree to lopsided interpretation of troop withdrawal.

On the other hand, by invading Kashmir in 1965, Pakistan has blatantly 'violated' - in true sense, spirit and meaning of the word - the cease fire agreement as per UNSC resolutions. 


> And there are no great numbers of Pakistani citizens in the valley beyond the soldiers needed to stop Indian aggression.


Then it should be easy for Pakistan to remove the 'lesser' number of Pakistani citizens. Whats the hold up then.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> Or perhaps its all sense. Maybe you are a bit rusty. So let me help you.
> 
> In other words the notice is to be served only after the tribesmen and Pakistani nationals have completely withdrawn from the occupied portion (and of course when Pakistan has started withdrawing its forces, which in any case can be achieved by any token gesture).
> 
> Your response was that they (the Pakistani nationals) probably have. Hence my quibble. The notice has nothing to do 'agreement on withdrawal' or real withdrawal.
> 
> Besides, India doesn't get to implement UNSC resolutions unless Pakistan has done it first and that would be removal of 'tribesmen and Pakistani civilian' from the valley. No amount of putting the cart before the horse is going to change that inconvenient fact.
> 
> Mostly strawman. I have not uttered a single word on 'withdrawal of Pakistani forces'.
> 
> However, I would like you to point out the cases, where India has 'violated', if thats the word you want to use, the UNSC resolutions. The resolutions do not give a time frame for plebiscite and explicitly binds it with events, that are outside India's scope. Where is the 'violation' if a) India hasn't held a plebiscite till now, and b) refused to agree to lopsided interpretation of troop withdrawal.
> 
> On the other hand, by invading Kashmir in 1965, Pakistan has blatantly 'violated' - in true sense, spirit and meaning of the word - the cease fire agreement as per UNSC resolutions.
> 
> Then it should be easy for Pakistan to remove the 'lesser' number of Pakistani citizens. Whats the hold up then.



One sentence from the UNSC resolutions is enough to debunk all that mumbo jumbo you posted for obfuscating the issue:

_"Simultaneously with the acceptance of the proposal for the immediate cessation of hostilities as outlined in Part I, both Governments accept the following principles as a basis for the formulation of a truce agreement, *the details of which shall be worked out in discussion between their Representatives and the Commission.*"_
_
A. (l) As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State._ etc. etc. ....

Note the underlined portion and that all of the recommendations were contingent on tripartite negotiations between India, Pakistan and the UN representatives - the agreements worked out in those discussions would have then led to a presumably bilateral withdrawal.

This position is validated by subsequent UNSC resolutions:
*
UNSC Resolution 80 on Kashmir:*

... _Calls upon the Governments of India and Pakistan to make immediate arrangements, without prejudice to their rights or claims and with due regard to the requirements of law and order, to prepare and execute within a period of five months from the date of this resolution a program of demilitarization *on the basis of the principles of paragraph 2 of General McNaughton proposal* or of such modifications of those principles as may be mutually agreed;_

And what was the McNaughton proposal?
*
The McNaughton Proposal:*

_*DEMILITARISATION PREPARATORY TO THE PLEBISCITE*

... There should be an agreed program of progressive demilitarization, *the basic principle of which should be the reduction of armed forces on either side of the Cease-Fire Line by withdrawal, disbandment and disarmament in such stages as not to cause fear at any point of time to the people on either side of the Cease-Fire Line.* *The aim should be to reduce the armed personnel in the State of Jammu and Kashmir on each side of the Cease-Fire Line to the minimum compatible with the maintenance of security and of local law and order, and to a level sufficiently low and with the forces so disposed that they will not constitute a restriction on the free expression of opinion for the purposes of the plebiscite.*

1. The program of demilitarization should include the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of the regular forces of Pakistan; *and the withdrawal of the regular forces of India not required for purposes of security or for the maintenance of local law and order on the Indian side of the Cease-Fire Line*: also the reduction, by disbanding and disarming, of local forces, including on the one side the Armed Forces and Militia of the State of Kashmir and on the other, the Azad Forces. _

As pointed out in the UNSC resolutions thread, in Sir Owen Dixit's own words, it was India that was being the obstructionist in implementing the McNaughton proposal in some form, despite maintaining significantly larger number of troops (in comparison to Pakistan) on its side of the disputed territory.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> A victorious military/power can annex an occupied territory (again some treaty says that) - plebiscite or no plebiscite. Indian forces were "invited" into Kashmir by the then administration and India agreed on the condition that J&K cedes to the Indian Union. Rest as they say is history. *Theres nothing illegal about India annexing J&K*. What is illegal is keeping people of P-0-K in a state of suspended nationality a la population of Golan Heights - _na ghar ke na ghat ke_.


 Might is right? Funny, why didn't the US just let Saddam keep Kuwait then? Or for that matter why did the UNSC pass resolutions after Israeli victories over Arabs indicating that the borders of Israel should remain restricted to those that existed in 1967? Trying to bring out some obsolete 'treaty' that awards the spoils of aggression to the victor (what, are you going to join the Taliban in the medieval ages next?) to justify an immoral and illegal position just indicates the depths to which some Indians have sunk

It is not a case of 'plebiscite or no plebiscite', Mountbatten made clear in accepting the Maharajah's instrument of accession that it was conditional to a plebiscite, a position endorsed by the Indian leadership as well time and time again, and also endorsed by the UNSC to which India took its case.

Hence unilateral Indian annexation of J&K is illegal. Were the accession not conditional to a plebiscite, as indicated by Mountbatten and the Indian leadership, your point would have validity.

The 'limbo' the people of GB and AK find themselves in is entirely India's fault - for violating its commitment to the UNSC resolutions and not allowing a plebiscite to take place, or finding one excuse or another to not engage consistently in negotiations to resolve the dispute bilaterally. 


> Yup, so much concern for a people instigated/bullied/scared into picking up arms against the Indian machinery or more shamelessly by pushing trained terrorists who have nothing to do with Kashmiris in an attempt to "help" the "freedom struggle".


Let me repeat my last point, since it obviously did not sink in, "There is no 'drama' as you put it in Pakistan and Pakistanis raising awareness about the plight of Kashmiris - the hundreds of thousands of Indian troops deployed to quell the Kashmiri separatism and deny them the right to plebiscite under the UNSC resolutions is more than ample evidence that Pakistan's concerns over 'Kashmiri plight' are legitemate and valid."


> As Bushy and EjazR pointed out earlier, the homegrown seperatist movements have largely given up armed struggle opting to participate in a political process. Those using arms are not Kashmiris but terrorists pushed from across the border and the Indian Forces are there to give them a warm "welcome" with molten lead!


If the Kashmiris choose to give up armed struggle for a political one, that is their choice - that does not mean the argument in favor of separatism goes away, nor does it change the fact that India continues to deny the people of J&K the freedom and their right to determine their destiny. And just because the Indian Military puts a 'made in Pakistan' label on every freedom fighter they kill does not automatically mean that the people they kill are not Kashmiri. Obviously the Indian military would lie about that to promote propaganda that the people being killed are not Kashmiris.



> UNSC resolutions apply for a "disputed" territory. India does not see J&K as disputed now. That territory is an integral part of India and will remain so. Therefore wouldnt UNSC resolutions be nullified now? If so the question of Plebiscite does not arise. What is being done is attempts to provide a better autonomy model to the Kashmiris within the framework of the Indian Constitution. Now what does Pakistan provide that you all feel that these very Kashmiris will vote for Pakistan in a referendum?


It does not matter what India 'thinks' - as I often point out, just because India might decide to 'think' that California and Texas belong to it and unilaterally amends its constitution to declare them Indian States does not mean India actually has any legal standing on the issue. The fact is that India agreed that the territory was disputed, it agreed that a plebiscite would determine J&K's final status, and it agreed to the UNSC resolutions.


> Then why make all those noises about "freedom" for Kashmir? You do understand what "Freedom" means right? Why not just let them be, instead of being an occupying force? So much for moral support, wheres that morality exactly? (Now India considers J&K as an Indian Union state, not a 'disputed' area or 'occupied' territory!)


The freedom to choose which nation they wish to be a part of - a freedom denied them by India. Its not that hard to understand.



> I asked what does Pakistan's constitution presently provide for the Kashmiris under your occupation now - with regards to their status, nationality, rights, etc? That would probably answer the question of "annexation".


The rights Pakistan affords the people of GB and AK have nothing to do with annexation - annexation would be the attempt to constitutionally declare and asorb those territories as a part of Pakistan. The Pakistani constitution clearly leaves final status pending on the results of the UNSC plebiscite - hence your and the author's argument of 'annexation' is bunk.


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## pagans

Indian Muslims know what is Indian secularism and democracy. The site of grand Babri Mosque displays the Indian greatness. Even while claming to be a so-called secular democracy, India keeps scheming in Jammu Kashmir with its agents being engaged in subversive activities to make the freedom activists also pro-India. After a terrible period of New Delhis political recession in Jammu Kashmir, India is hoping to regain the hold in the region by keeping the new Muslim-Hindu regime in Kashmir. As the world look at the Indian terror policies in Kashmir killing thousands of innocent Kashmiris in a sustained manner since 1947, India is now over-conscious and over-cautious about its global image being a state terrorist, even though it hides behind other similar global terrorists like USA and Israel.

M.K. Gandhi end in New Delhi testify how much of criticism is tolerated by Indian leaders and media. India is still focused don marinating Jammu Kashmir under its control through a pro-India regime and finish off the freedom fighter through the agents in JK. NC CM Omar is talking about tourism in Kashmir. On Feb 02, the JK government has come out with a new proposal to setup an upgraded enclave to lure investors. The government is planning a high profile diplomatic conclave in Srinagar to woo foreign tourists in Kashmir. They said the plan is part of the two-pronged strategy the government is working out in consultation with Kashmirs elite group of tour operators. On the one hand, the authorities would host a diplomatic conclave in Srinagar wherein ambassadors of Western and Asia-Pacific countries would participate; on the other hand the local authorities would plead in New Delhi for the removal of Armed Forces Special Powers Act, Disturbed Areas Act and other tough laws prevalent in J&K. The tour operators apprised the minister that the existence of laws like AFSPA and DAA also dissuades tourists to visit Kashmir Valley despite the fact that the situation in the State was conducive for tourism.

In view of the move to replace the terror forces of India with JK police forces, this makes sense and credibility. The state government will take up the matter with New Delhi so that the laws are scrapped paving way for fear-free environment for travel. The tourism sector of the State has borne the brunt of political unrest with the matter being compounded by the existence of various laws providing impunity to the troopers. Kashmir valley, once the choicest global destination for tourism, witnessed a consistent decline in the tourist inflow since the eruption of armed uprising with several countries issuing advisories to its nationals against travel to the conflict zone.

Speculators do see through this a move on the part of India to let the new JK regime construct infrastructures for a forthcoming embassies complex in the proposed enclave to have foreign missions for their diplomatic services with emerging new independent Jammu Kashmir. This implies New Delhi is toying with the idea of surrendering sovereignty back to Kashmiris in a systematic manner. If so, this is indeed a positive development. However, Kashmiri patriots view this is a ploy by India and its Kashmiri agents to boos the image of India world wide by showcasing the colorful scenes of Kashmir. That would create yet another illusion of how well India is doing in Jammu Kashmir and how much the Hindus care for the Kashmiris Muslims.

It appears air-services to Gulf States introduced by the government would not help India in getting rid of the freedom movement. How much the freedom leaders and their supporters and Kashmiri Muslims in general would benefit form the services is unclear. Already the pro-India elements have gained a lot of coins by backstabbing the fellow Kashmiris who fight for independence and getting them killed on payment basis from New Delhi bosses. 

It has been the practice of Indian net media portals to hurl ****** language towards Kashmiris and Pakistanis. Pakistan is known in the portal circles as porkistan and India government promotes that.

Apart from Jammu Kashmir, Indian Muslims are considered as a factor against any positive ties with Pakistan. By sustained social-political maneuvers and psycho pressure tactics, Muslims in India have been converted into pro-Hindu people effectively hiding their Islamic identity for fear. India fears a friendly Pakistan would wean away Indian Muslims to love Pakistanis and that would be the most remarkable failures of Indian foreign-cum-home policy.

Perhaps, Kashmiris seem to doubt the worth of freedom and independence. Just on the eve of the Indian poll imposed on JK, a few Indians did argue for granting sovereignty back to Kashmiris as the only reliable solution to resolve the crisis, but Indian government agencies know how to silence them and they did that in perfection . So much so none speaks now about the need for freedom for Jammu Kashmir. A political party held minor demonstrations in New Delhi, also before the polls, but that also has been silenced now by "democratic and innocent" India. Silencing the opponents by all means including cooption, bribes or elimination, remains the cardinal policy of India both at home and abroad. Over decades of its free manipulations and machinations, India is well versed in the method of silencing.. 

Kashmir Watch :: In-depth coverage on Kashmir conflict

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## Spring Onion

In the portal circles we know the stinking language BR monkeys use for Pakistan and Pakistanis so we dont care what some worthless people say about us.

The main point is the freedom of Kashmiri people. And we wish and assure them we are with them.


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## RobbieS

Jana said:


> In the portal circles we know the stinking language BR monkeys use for Pakistan and Pakistanis so we dont care what some worthless people say about us.
> 
> The main point is the freedom of Kashmiri people. And we wish and assure them we are with them.



I have been to a lot of Pakistani forums, and the language used for Indians and Hindus in particular isnt printable either.

Regarding Pakistan's support to Kashmiris, well that's best saved for another thread. All I can say, is that if that is so, Bangladesh and now Baluchistan shouldnt cause any heart burn for you.

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## pagans

If Indians accept that Pakistan can be a separate country because of Islam the same holds true for Kashmir. You cannot have double standards. Either you accept the partition of INDIA based on religion or you don't. Kashmirs claim for freedom is as much legitimate as call for Pakistan in 1947.


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## ssheppard

pagans said:


> If Indians accept that Pakistan can be a separate country because of Islam the same holds true for Kashmir. You cannot have double standards. Either you accept the partition of INDIA based on religion or you don't. Kashmirs claim for freedom is as much legitimate as call for Pakistan in 1947.



A Pakistani Troll Disguised as an Indian......

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## RobbieS

Not trying to digress here, and I have no problems with Pakistan's creation. But Pakistan's creation was rejected by millions of Muslims who refused to leave their homes and neighbors. They stayed put in India and refused to join the so called promised land. When your own brethren couldnt be convinced, isn't it a little too much to expect 'Indians' to accept partition?

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## graphican

ssheppard said:


> A Pakistani Troll Disguised as an Indian......



And you have shown who's behind this UN mask. Namaste ssheppard. ap ka PDF pe sawagat hai.


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## ssheppard

graphican said:


> And you have shown who's behind this UN mask. Namaste ssheppard. ap ka PDF pe sawagat hai.



Wrong....


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## TaimiKhan

ssheppard said:


> A Pakistani Troll Disguised as an Indian......



Only if he is a Pakistani and sitting somewhere in Tamil Nadu and posting on PDF. 

Don't think of everyone from the same basket.


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## ek_indian

pagans said:


> If Indians accept that Pakistan can be a separate country because of Islam the same holds true for Kashmir. You cannot have double standards. Either you accept the partition of INDIA based on religion or you don't. Kashmirs claim for freedom is as much legitimate as call for Pakistan in 1947.



The partition was a political decision. Get over religion in everything. Are you suggesting Tibet should be in India on the basis of what you just vomitted. (No offences to Chinese friends. Just wanted to tell him how not to rant.)

If what you say is true then we should have only equal number of 
countries as the number of religions.

You should be more careful of article posted. 
Lastly if you tell us your original country it will be great!!.


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## iamunique

Pagans, you make me feel proud of my country. Indeed, in various threads on this forum I have constantly said that the fact that inspite of 4 wars & decades of insurgency by a beligerent neighbour we have still managed to hold on to our part of J&K for 62 years is truly an achievement!

I must confess that I'm not too happy of the way muslims have been treated in this country. But you must understand... people like you are the main reason why muslims will always get ill-treated in this country (and elsewhere). I don't like it, but that's the way it is.


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## EjazR

You forgot to mention that the article is written by the fake and (in)famous Dr.Abdul Ruff Colachal who was apparently teaching at JNU but no one knows who he is. This just debunks it as a propaganda piece

More details about him here
Details about Dr. Ruff


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## pagans

ssheppard said:


> A Pakistani Troll Disguised as an Indian......


I am an INDIAN. I am just saying that Indians should stop being hypocrites . If Pakistan can be allowed on the basis of ISLAM then why can't the same apply for Kashmir ?


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## pagans

RobbieS said:


> Not trying to digress here, and I have no problems with Pakistan's creation. But Pakistan's creation was rejected by millions of Muslims who refused to leave their homes and neighbors. They stayed put in India and refused to join the so called promised land. When your own brethren couldnt be convinced, isn't it a little too much to expect 'Indians' to accept partition?



Creation of Pakistan cannot be rejected by Muslims in INDIA. Muslim in Pakistan in 1947 accepted the partition.


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## ssheppard

pagans said:


> I am an INDIAN. I am just saying that Indians should stop being hypocrites . If Pakistan can be allowed on the basis of ISLAM then why can't the same apply for Kashmir ?



According to your logic......Every time Muslim Population in any of the India state....becomes a majority.....it should be handed over to Pakistan.


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> One sentence from the UNSC resolutions is enough to debunk all that mumbo jumbo you posted for obfuscating the issue:
> 
> _"Simultaneously with the acceptance of the proposal for the immediate cessation of hostilities as outlined in Part I, both Governments accept the following principles as a basis for the formulation of a truce agreement, *the details of which shall be worked out in discussion between their Representatives and the Commission.*"_
> _
> A. (l) As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State._ etc. etc. ....
> 
> Note the underlined portion and that all of the recommendations were contingent on tripartite negotiations between India, Pakistan and the UN representatives - the agreements worked out in those discussions would have then led to a presumably bilateral withdrawal.
> 
> This position is validated by subsequent UNSC resolutions:
> *
> UNSC Resolution 80 on Kashmir:*
> 
> ... _Calls upon the Governments of India and Pakistan to make immediate arrangements, without prejudice to their rights or claims and with due regard to the requirements of law and order, to prepare and execute within a period of five months from the date of this resolution a program of demilitarization *on the basis of the principles of paragraph 2 of General McNaughton proposal* or of such modifications of those principles as may be mutually agreed;_
> 
> And what was the McNaughton proposal?
> *
> The McNaughton Proposal:*
> 
> _*DEMILITARISATION PREPARATORY TO THE PLEBISCITE*
> 
> ... There should be an agreed program of progressive demilitarization, *the basic principle of which should be the reduction of armed forces on either side of the Cease-Fire Line by withdrawal, disbandment and disarmament in such stages as not to cause fear at any point of time to the people on either side of the Cease-Fire Line.* *The aim should be to reduce the armed personnel in the State of Jammu and Kashmir on each side of the Cease-Fire Line to the minimum compatible with the maintenance of security and of local law and order, and to a level sufficiently low and with the forces so disposed that they will not constitute a restriction on the free expression of opinion for the purposes of the plebiscite.*
> 
> 1. The program of demilitarization should include the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of the regular forces of Pakistan; *and the withdrawal of the regular forces of India not required for purposes of security or for the maintenance of local law and order on the Indian side of the Cease-Fire Line*: also the reduction, by disbanding and disarming, of local forces, including on the one side the Armed Forces and Militia of the State of Kashmir and on the other, the Azad Forces. _
> 
> As pointed out in the UNSC resolutions thread, in Sir Owen Dixit's own words, it was India that was being the obstructionist in implementing the McNaughton proposal in some form, despite maintaining significantly larger number of troops (in comparison to Pakistan) on its side of the disputed territory.


It is really disappointing when your opponent doesn't give you a patient reading. Quite frankly, it is irritating. 

You have built your case on the assumption that I am talking of 'troop withdrawal'. I have not. Read again. My point was, and continues to be, on withdrawal of 'tribesmen and Pakistani citizens'. Since UNSC resolutions make a clear distinction between 'tribesmen and Pakistani citizens' and Pakistani army, there is no scope for one to confuse Pakistani army as being referred to as 'tribesmen and Pakistani citizens'. The later group consisted of the infiltrators - in case you are wondering.

So no. You haven't debunked anything. You have simply propped up a strawman and then merrily flogged it to death. 

My question continues to be unanswered: What prevented Pakistan from withdrawing the 'tribesmen' and its 'citizens'?

One more thing. Its Owen *Dixon* and not *Dixit*. Rest assured I know exactly which part of the report you are referring to. I however doubt if you are aware of the context of that part of the report.


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## ssheppard

pagans said:


> Creation of Pakistan cannot be rejected by Muslims in INDIA.



Wrong....A huge number of Muslims stayed here in India after Partition......so they rejected Pakistan ....for whatever reasons.




pagans said:


> Muslim in Pakistan in 1947 accepted the partition.



It was their choice.


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## EjazR

@graphican

What I wrote was from myself. The links that I provided was what I felt would be a better attempt to exaplain what I was trying to say about Jihad from a Islamic scholars perspective. His book which was the second link is also a must read but I don't know if that is availble in Pakistan. Now boht the book and the article on the blog were published in Urdu. *Yoginder Sikand *is not interpreting anything but just translating that Urdu article. And I suggest you do a littel google search on him as well, he may be a non-muslim but he has spent a lot of years researching and reporting on hindu-muslim issues and is well versed in Urdu and traditional Islamic teachings as well. This is just a translation of the Maulana's article in a Urdu magazine.

What I have said is not my own opinion although I admit I have paraphrased it in my own words. Many ulema hold this view including the conservative ulema such as those associated with the Tablighi Jamaat elders and ulema for example. It would be helpful if you actually read through what I say as I have mentioned that taking up arms require important conditionalities to be fulfilled and that is not the case here.

Ofcourse there are blots like the Gujarat and Babri riots, but constitutionally and at the government level there is still freedom of religion. After Babri masjid incident, the BJP never formed the government in UP and it never won the consitituency of Ayodhya. The sants and sadhus themselves went to the district collector to ban VHP BD e.t.c. entry because of what they had done. 
Similarly after the Gujarat riots, it was a muslim female who was elected as mayor of Ahmedabad in 2003. 

Of course muslims are at a disadvantage in their socio-economic level, but again that does not fulfill the requirement either. Let me be blunt and say that even if India declares itself a Hindu Rashtra but still guarantees freedom to practice and preach religion, Jihad will not be applicable. Do you see my point now? 

Like I mentioned earlier, Indian is probably the only non-muslim majority country in the world that provides the use of personal laws based on your faith for its religious minorities. This is a source of intrinsic strength of the Indian society IMO. For example, a muslim in India can LEGALLY marry more than one wife if he wanted (although very few are brave enough to take on that extra headache ). Is there any other country that does that? Do you see what I mean by freedom of religion now?


Brother, its not the "zionists" or "kuffar" that are the main problem, its muslims themselves. Our Iman has become so weak that instead of believing that God is all powerful and rely on ourselves, we consider the "zionists" all powerful who can orchrestrate elaborate conspiracies with the finesse of a puppeteer on the world stage.

Anyways, we are getting off-topic. I was simply saying that as the situation stands today, there is no possible to say Jihad in Kashmir is valid. Pakistan has all rights to settle the Kashmir dispute. If they wish to do so diplomatically and peacefully as GoP has agreed to based on numerous treaties it can do so. Otherwise, if it feels the need, it can go ahead and revoke the treaties and then attack with its army or militias. But still this would be a war to "protect its interests" so to speak, not a Jihad. Wether it uses "Jihadi" groups or not this is the fact of the matter. Not every war fought by muslims automatically becomes Jihad.

Yes, may Allah guide us all to the right path, we are certainly in need for his guidance these days. Amen

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## pagans

ssheppard said:


> According to your logic......Every time Muslim Population in any of the India state....becomes a majority.....it should be handed over to Pakistan.


Yes! If you accept the theory that INDIA can be divided on the basis of religion.


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## ssheppard

pagans said:


> Yes! If you accept the theory that INDIA can be divided on the basis of religion.



Wow.....twisting words....

India was divided....Thats a fact...India can be divide is a Great Pakistani Wishful thinking.


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## pagans

What is your nationality ?


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## ssheppard

pagans said:


> What is your nationality ?



How does it matter to you.....


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## Hulk

Jana said:


> In the portal circles we know the stinking language BR monkeys use for Pakistan and Pakistanis so we dont care what some worthless people say about us.
> 
> The main point is the freedom of Kashmiri people. And we wish and assure them we are with them.



I suggest Jana to first look at your own conduct, your language is not best either, remember the use of word Kapoorey many times. I have hardly seen females use that kind of words. Also you are 100% anti Indian and lack balance.

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## Iggy

shhhahuuu said:


> FREEDOM OF PRACTICE IN INDIA...??? can sm1 tell me what is freedom of practice??? *my dear you do not treat minorities even like humans..*. there r thousands of xamples.. i'll qoute just one of them..
> 
> every one knows that India has got a huge army and we also know that one fifth (1/5) of the population of India consist of Muslims, so called warrior nation.. can you qoute a single name of a MUSLIM GENERAL in your army...??? you just CAN'T...
> 
> this is called FREEDOM OF ACTION..



get a life man..When you preach about minority abuse in India first ban Indian minority like me from PDF because i will oppose it and i can also quote 100's of examples of Hindu -Muslim or Hindu-Christian friendship and for your knowledge,I dont see anybody treat as a second class citizen here in India ..yes there are some incidents but majority of them are friendly to us

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## mr_cool

indianrabbit said:


> I suggest Jana to first look at your own conduct, your language is not best either, remember the use of word Kapoorey many times. I have hardly seen females use that kind of words. Also you are 100% anti Indian and lack balance.



Jesus christ and the holy goat!
some of the comments you guys post really do baffle me!

There are trillions of you who are anti-pakistani on this site even though it is meant to be a PAKISTANI forum. There are only a handful of *genuine* pakistanis, like Jana, who post regularly on this site and you still complain and think there is a lack of balance towards you guys? 

You really are unbelievable!


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## Hulk

mr_cool said:


> Jesus christ and the holy goat!
> some of the comments you guys post really do baffle me!
> 
> There are trillions of you who are anti-pakistani on this site even though it is meant to be a PAKISTANI forum. There are only a handful of *genuine* pakistanis, like Jana, who post regularly on this site and you still complain and think there is a lack of balance towards you guys?
> 
> You really are unbelievable!



I do not deny that there are many Indian's who are anti Pakistani and I do not support them either. Those are mostly new members not a senior who is about to reach 10000 post.


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## mr_cool

indianrabbit said:


> I do not deny that there are many Indian's who are anti Pakistani and I do not support them either. Those are mostly new members not a senior who is about to reach 10000 post.



Oh you will be surprised!
Most do not become senior members because they cross the line so much to the extent that the moderators have no choice but to ban them!
No offence but I think myself and others have come to accept that you guys love whinging! Theres always something or another you like complaining about...whether it is the 'lack of balance' towards you guys (even though the vast majority of you are anti-pakistani') or whether it is because you guys are 'unfairly banned' etc etc...there is always something isn't there? And that is not just by new members either!


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## makikirkiri

> And let's get this right, we produce suicide bombers so they can attack our people and cities. How very logical of your mind set.


 You shelter the afghani taliban who had been working with al-qaeeda which spread terrorism around the world by all means---crashing planes into buildings, suicide bombings in subways&airports .The top al-qaeeda leadeship is in your country and you don't do anything substantial abt it.
And now you crib about the pakistani taliban which is the major terrorist outfit bombing your cities.One must remember ,,what goes about,comes about. You gave support to the taliban in capturing kabul supporting their ideology of strict islam and shariat.The rallying call of the pakistani taliban is also the same.
In today's cut throat geo-political situation countries wouldn't let go any oppurtunity to score over the other.But all the suicide bombers attacking your cities are your own pakistani people. Other Countries might be supporting these groups but because of the obsessively Islamic education,intolerant laws and encouragement of similar activity in your surrounding areas/countries you have created an atmosphere and a system in which such groups find recruits and are able to sustain themselves.So...YES you yourself have produced suicide bombers who attack your cities .YOU have none but your own self to blame.Got the logic?


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## makikirkiri

> Here you go again, comparing and competing with Pakistan again alas 160 Million vis 1.2 Billion. But then again living in a nut shell seldom enhances your capabilities.


 I said...second highest engineers instead of suicide bombers. I was emphasising what we and you produce in such high number instead of exact numbers.
Well the nutshell of 1.2 Billion is guess much much larger than your nutshell of " islamic radical fanatics" which is in itself a nutshell in a nut shell of 160 Million .There does exist world beyond "a book". Wake up and take this as your first knowledge/capability pill.



> i think only Indians are boastful of the riches while always remain in denial when it comes to millions of poor


 I have not seen any Indian in denial of their poor.My be some ppl are boastful of the riches but I have never come across.But..."Indians only"? are boastful? really? I now see how much pakistanis are in love with china.

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## Windjammer

makikirkiri said:


> You shelter the afghani taliban who had been working with al-qaeeda which spread terrorism around the world by all means---crashing planes into buildings, suicide bombings in subways&airports .The top al-qaeeda leadeship is in your country and you don't do anything substantial abt it.
> And now you crib about the pakistani taliban which is the major terrorist outfit bombing your cities.One must remember ,,what goes about,comes about. You gave support to the taliban in capturing kabul supporting their ideology of strict islam and shariat.The rallying call of the pakistani taliban is also the same.
> In today's cut throat geo-political situation countries wouldn't let go any oppurtunity to score over the other.But all the suicide bombers attacking your cities are your own pakistani people. Other Countries might be supporting these groups but because of the obsessively Islamic education,intolerant laws and encouragement of similar activity in your surrounding areas/countries you have created an atmosphere and a system in which such groups find recruits and are able to sustain themselves.So...YES you yourself have produced suicide bombers who attack your cities .YOU have none but your own self to blame.Got the logic?


Subsequent Governments execute their policies of the day as they deem fit, you haven't exactly made a discovery to that effect. Indian leaders likes of Indra Gandhi and her son paid with their lives for their deliverance. And one wonders what ideologies do the Nexel Maoist practice as they run havoc in over half of the Indian States.!!!???


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## makikirkiri

> every one knows that India has got a huge army and we also know that one fifth (1/5) of the population of India consist of Muslims, so called warrior nation.. can you qoute a single name of a MUSLIM GENERAL in your army...??? you just CAN'T...


 why a general? I'll quote to you the supreme commander of the Indian armed forces -Mr.APJAbdul Kalam our ex-president and the ex-head of state.
may I also quote Mr.Ansari the current vice-president
also I can quote shahrukh khan,aamir khan,salman khan, shabana azmi,farhan ahktar, javed akhtaretcetc etc who havemade itc really big in our film industry.
I can give you thousands of more examples.But If the above examples don't convince you nothing would. And it would be a waste of effort and space in this forum

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## Windjammer

makikirkiri said:


> I said...second highest engineers instead of suicide bombers. I was emphasising what we and you produce in such high number instead of exact numbers.
> Well the nutshell of 1.2 Billion is guess much much larger than your nutshell of " islamic radical fanatics" which is in itself a nutshell in a nut shell of 160 Million .There does exist world beyond "a book". Wake up and take this as your first knowledge/capability pill.


 Why just compare Engineers Vis Suicide bombers, Why not have a break down of Child Labors, Prostitution, Slum dwellers and your high profile call centers, where Hindu priests have to do regular rounds to remind young workers of the moral values. Basically you people will make a song and dance on just about everything and end up proving just what the world already knows.


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## makikirkiri

> Subsequent Governments execute their policies of the day as they deem fit, you haven't exactly made a discovery to that effect. Indian leaders likes of Indra Gandhi and her son paid with their lives for their deliverance. And one wonders what ideologies do the Nexel Maoist practice as they run havoc in over half of the Indian States.!!!???


 I am not claiming a discovery nor am I demanding a Nobel for it.I was refuting the other guy's opinion that it was not pakistan who is responsible for producing the pakistani taliban which is now attacking your own cities and military establishments.
reg Naxals . pakistanis seem to be having many misconceptions.They do not run havoc in "half of the indian states".They are limited to just 4 states-chattisgarh,bengal,orissa and jharkhand.Many bastions of the Naxals have been cleaned up.They have lost credibility and support in their biggest bastions like andhra pradesh. Naxals once started off as revolutionaries but their activities at present is no where near being revolutionary.they are loosing support among tribals too.Saying they run havoc in half the staes would be like saying TTP controlls the whole of pakistan.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> It is really disappointing when your opponent doesn't give you a patient reading. Quite frankly, it is irritating.
> 
> You have built your case on the assumption that I am talking of 'troop withdrawal'. I have not. Read again. My point was, and continues to be, on withdrawal of 'tribesmen and Pakistani citizens'. Since UNSC resolutions make a clear distinction between 'tribesmen and Pakistani citizens' and Pakistani army, there is no scope for one to confuse Pakistani army as being referred to as 'tribesmen and Pakistani citizens'. The later group consisted of the infiltrators - in case you are wondering.
> 
> So no. You haven't debunked anything. You have simply propped up a strawman and then merrily flogged it to death.
> 
> My question continues to be unanswered: What prevented Pakistan from withdrawing the 'tribesmen' and its 'citizens'?
> 
> One more thing. Its Owen *Dixon* and not *Dixit*. Rest assured I know exactly which part of the report you are referring to. I however doubt if you are aware of the context of that part of the report.



Hogwash - you need to actually pay better attention to the UNSC resolutions:

*PART II*​*

TRUCE AGREEMENT*

_Simultaneously with the acceptance of the proposal for the immediate cessation of hostilities as outlined in Part I, both Governments accept the following principles as a basis for the formulation of a truce agreement, *the details of which shall be worked out in discussion between their Representatives and the Commission.*

1. (l) As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State.

(2) The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavor to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting. _

========

As you can clearly see above, the withdrawal of the Tribesmen (whose presence in J&K any more I am not aware of) was also contingent on the tripartite negotiations mentioned. 

And Owen Dix*on*'s report does lay the blame on India's doorstep, and that position is in fact validated by Indian analysts as well, who try to justify that obstructionism by arguing that any thing aside from the Indian position of a unilateral, unconditional withdrawal by Pakistan would be tantamount to 'rewarding' Pakistani aggression.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

EjazR said:


> Pakistan has all rights to settle the Kashmir dispute. If they wish to do so diplomatically and peacefully as GoP has agreed to based on numerous treaties it can do so. Otherwise, if it feels the need, it can go ahead and revoke the treaties and then attack with its army or militias. But still this would be a war to "protect its interests" so to speak, not a Jihad. Wether it uses "Jihadi" groups or not this is the fact of the matter.



And what responsibility do you place on India to in some way acknowledge and implement the rights given the Kashmiris (and accepted by the GoI at the time) of exercising self-determination to determine which nation they wish to be a part of?

Pakistan is not the nation violating its commitment of allowing the Kashmiris the choice to determine their future in a UN managed plebiscite.


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## makikirkiri

> Why not have a break down of Child Labors, Prostitution, Slum dwellers and your high profile call centers, where Hindu priests have to do regular rounds to remind young workers of the moral values. Basically you people will make a song and dance on just about everything and end up proving just what the world already knows.


 Child labour, prostitution and slums are not the effects of concious state policy.They exist because of mis-implementation or non-implementation of state policy.And hindu priests doing rounds???//?????wtf this definitely doesn't happen here .You are misinformed.
If you find such videos so amusing ,I will send you manny more.But just to shatter your little bubble such vids never make it to any broadcasting media.


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## SSGPA1

SRINAGAR: A human rights group in Indian-administered Kashmir urged authorities on Wednesday to launch a probe into 2,700 unmarked graves of people believed to have died as a result of the regions revolt against Indian rule.

The International Peoples Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice (IPT) has in the past three years uncovered the unidentified bodies buried in villages near Pakistan-administered Kashmir.

The independent Srinagar-based group, which calculates 8,000 people have gone missing in the 20-year separatist insurgency, released a report entitled Buried Evidence documenting the unknown, unmarked, and mass graves containing at least 2,900 bodies.

About 180 graves held two or more bodies, said the report, which surveyed 55 villages through interviews with gravediggers, graveyard managers and residents, and first information reports filed by the police.

These graves include bodies of extrajudicial, summary, and arbitrary executions, as well as massacres committed by the Indian military and paramilitary forces, the IPT said.

The Government of India and the Government of Jammu and Kashmir must commit to, and enable, independent and transparent investigations into unknown, unmarked and mass graves, it urged.

International human rights groups have in the past called for a probe into whether the unmarked graves held bodies of civilians who have disappeared as Indian security forces struggle to contain the Muslim-majority regions revolt.

A police officer who spoke on condition of anonymity said most of the bodies were likely those of militants killed in fighting with Indian forces.

Last year police admitted there were more than 200 unmarked graves in one location but insisted they contained dead rebels and not civilians.

Police said it was not possible to identify every militant killed during gunbattles in Indian-administered Kashmir.

The IPT report said that more than 8,000 people have gone missing in the region, mostly after their arrest by Indian security personnel.

Indian officials contend many of the missing had crossed over to Pakistan to join the insurgents.

The report also examined the deaths of 50 militants killed during shoot-outs with security forces, and concluded 47 of the dead were civilians. 

DAWN.COM | World | Rights group urges probe into unmarked Kashmir graves


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## haji.muhammad

Kashmiris want the freedom because of their Genocide which is being calculatedly done by Indian Army Since 1947.

Kashmir with Pakistan or Liberated both conditions are acceptable to Kashmiris.

Bhooka nanga Hindustan --- Jaan say piyara Pakistan 
Kashmir Baney ga Pakistan


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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Might is right? Funny, *why didn't the US just let Saddam keep Kuwait then*? Or for that matter why did the UNSC pass resolutions after *Israeli victories over Arabs* indicating that the borders of Israel should remain restricted to those that existed in 1967?


Might is right, there you have it. Pakistan would have absorbed kashmir by now if it had military superiority. You tried numerous times falsely believing in your tactical and qualitative superiority/might, but failed!


> Hence unilateral Indian annexation of J&K is illegal. Were the accession not conditional to a plebiscite, as indicated by Mountbatten and the Indian leadership, your point would have validity.


Conditions to be satisfied include Pakistan doing its part first. Pakistan had no right to intervene in Kashmir (in a vain attempt to annex it) in the first place, when the instrument of accession was singed with India and not Pakistan! Let go of kashmir, India may then conduct a referendum.


> The 'limbo' the people of GB and AK find themselves in is entirely India's fault - for violating its commitment to the UNSC resolutions and not allowing a plebiscite to take place, or finding one excuse or another to not engage consistently in negotiations to resolve the dispute bilaterally.





> the hundreds of thousands of Indian troops deployed to quell the Kashmiri separatism and deny them the right to plebiscite under the UNSC resolutions is more than ample evidence that Pakistan's concerns over 'Kashmiri plight' are legitemate and valid."


Funny that you say this, for Pakistan in the first place is responsible for creating a mess in Kashmir.
Causality - Pakistani interference in kashmir and pushing militants in the valley - led to India flooding the territory with Indian troops. So much for moral support!


> *If the Kashmiris choose to give up armed struggle for a political one, that is their choice *- that does not mean the argument in favor of separatism goes away, nor does it change the fact that India continues to deny the people of J&K the freedom and their right to determine their destiny.


Right from the horse's mouth. You contradict your own statement. Its Kashmiris choice that they gave up arms. Why then is Pakistan turning a blind eye to groups which support and push militants in the area? Talk about morals again.
Kashmiris are willing to take part in a political process within Indian constitution's framework. Now why is Pakistan meddling with this?


> It does not matter what India 'thinks' - as I often point out, just because India might decide to 'think' that California and Texas belong to it and unilaterally amends its constitution to declare them Indian States does not mean India actually has any legal standing on the issue.


Seriously? That's a very lame argument coming from you. Dont bring it up in any further discussions for very obvious reasons. Lame lame!


> The fact is that India agreed that the territory was disputed, it agreed that a plebiscite would determine J&K's final status, and it agreed to the UNSC resolutions.
> The freedom to choose which nation they wish to be a part of - a freedom denied them by India. Its not that hard to understand.


UNSC resolutions also demand certain concessions from Pakistan before India can implement the plebiscite. Do your part first, then talk.


> The rights Pakistan affords the people of GB and AK have nothing to do with annexation - annexation would be the attempt to constitutionally declare and asorb those territories as a part of Pakistan. The Pakistani constitution clearly leaves final status pending on the results of the UNSC plebiscite - hence your and the author's argument of 'annexation' is bunk.


So Pakistan lets the people from G-B areas live in a state of suspended nationality? How very supportive! Now which is better - a promising future under Indian citizenship or ......


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## Windjammer

makikirkiri said:


> I am not claiming a discovery nor am I demanding a Nobel for it.I was refuting the other guy's opinion that it was not pakistan who is responsible for producing the pakistani taliban which is now attacking your own cities and military establishments.
> reg Naxals . pakistanis seem to be having many misconceptions.They do not run havoc in "half of the indian states".They are limited to just 4 states-chattisgarh,bengal,orissa and jharkhand.Many bastions of the Naxals have been cleaned up.They have lost credibility and support in their biggest bastions like andhra pradesh. Naxals once started off as revolutionaries but their activities at present is no where near being revolutionary.they are loosing support among tribals too.Saying they run havoc in half the staes would be like saying TTP controlls the whole of pakistan.


First of all stop acting like a kid in a candy shop and have the sense to Quote as to who you are addressing.
The Sunday Telegraph (London) recently carried out a full page article on the extent of Naxals insurgency detailing that it has spread to 23 Indian States, even the Indian PM is on record for accepting that Maoist present the biggest threat to the Indian State hood. Are you gloating we have misconceptions, while your rant on TTP should be acknowledged. India may be a big country and all troubles seldom leak out but bombing and derailing trains and raids on Police stations is almost a daily event to the extent that even your leaders are accusing China for flaming the movement.


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## Windjammer

makikirkiri said:


> Child labour, prostitution and slums are not the effects of concious state policy.They exist because of mis-implementation or non-implementation of state policy.And hindu priests doing rounds???//?????wtf this definitely doesn't happen here .You are misinformed.
> If you find such videos so amusing ,I will send you manny more.But just to shatter your little bubble such vids never make it to any broadcasting media.


And even though they tarnish the image of the country, they none the less generate the economy hence the Indian authorities are not interested in eradicating them. Oh if it's not misconception, it's misinformation, hell the British media is loosing all it's credibility.
Knock your self out with your video collection and how far such material ascends is not the question, the point is the mind set of your country fellows hence they will literally act like D**** to get attention.


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## HAIDER

After looking all these post, i would say India is huge mess of human being. Its kinda place where almost one and half billion people confined. And no one want to touch or enter this bee nest. Nobody can solve this issue of human population burst. Pakistani should stay in their orbit and learn and control population and make their living better.Pakistan has much better chances to explore new horizon compare to Indians. 
As far as ummah leadership, Pakistan is leader of the pack. Because Pak armed forces are called any type of situation in muslim world. Still all muslim countries prefer to send their armed forces official for training in Pak institutions.
Pak armed forces serving in Middle East to Indonesia. From East Africa to West Africa.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> Might is right, there you have it.


Being glib does not validate your argument any. Regurgitating a phrase does not make it an internatioanlly accepted treaty as I pointed out. Israeli settlements in occupied territory continue to be illegal under international law for a reason.


> Pakistan would have absorbed kashmir by now if it had military superiority. You tried numerous times falsely believing in your tactical and qualitative superiority/might, but failed!


We would have absorbed it after having the UN hold a plebiscite there and if it was in our favor, since Pakistanis at least are not afraid of letting the Kashmiris express their opinion in such a plebiscite.


> Conditions to be satisfied include Pakistan doing its part first. Pakistan had no right to intervene in Kashmir (in a vain attempt to annex it) in the first place, when the instrument of accession was singed with India and not Pakistan! Let go of kashmir, India may then conduct a referendum.


Please see my responses to Toxic-Pus above - this argument of Pakistan unilaterally satisfying conditions has been clearly shown to be Indian propaganda - creating conditions conducive to a plebiscite in Kashmir was to be arrived at through a consultative process, as mentioned in the UNSC resolutions.


> Funny that you say this, for Pakistan in the first place is responsible for creating a mess in Kashmir.
> Causality - Pakistani interference in kashmir and pushing militants in the valley - led to India flooding the territory with Indian troops. So much for moral support!


No - the responsibility lies with the party that reneged on its commitment (of holding a plebiscite to determine final status) to the UNSC resolutions, to the international community, to Pakistan and most importantly to the Kashmiri people, and unilaterally and illegally annexed the section of J&K under its control.



> Right from the horse's mouth. You contradict your own statement. Its Kashmiris choice that they gave up arms. Why then is Pakistan turning a blind eye to groups which support and push militants in the area? Talk about morals again.
> Kashmiris are willing to take part in a political process within Indian constitution's framework. Now why is Pakistan meddling with this?


I did not contradict myself at all - you are insisting on viewing the situation as 'black or white'. The decision to pursue a political vs a violent path does not indicate that the desire for separatism is gone - it would be akin to suggesting that just because the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and the Palestinians there have chosen to renounce an approach based on violence (unlike Hamas in Gaza, though they too have reduced violence significantly) that the Palestinians somehow now want to live like they are. Just because the Palestinians take part in a political process as an occupied people does not mean they want the status quo to continue - participation in the political process is a means to address daily needs such as socio-economic development etc.

Elections do not substitute for a plebiscite.

Heck, Indians themselves don't buy into this bunk you are selling since they continue to oppose giving Kashmiri's their right to self-determination out of fear that the Kashmiris will choose Pakistan.

As for Pakistan - while the desire to pursue a violent solution to Indian occupation was high Pakistan supported the Kashmiris in that struggle, but to argue that Pakistan continues to do so is the height of ignorance given the record low levels of violence and infiltration (you cannot reduce it 100% given the terrain) and the fact that the GoI has already withdrawn 15,000 troops and Chidambaram today talked of possibly significantly further reducing troops because of the peace there.


> Seriously? That's a very lame argument coming from you. Dont bring it up in any further discussions for very obvious reasons. Lame lame!


 Don't be childish. Either refute the argument or don't. The position espoused by many Indians that Kashmir is legally theirs simply because the Indian constitution says so is completely akin to the example of India trying to annex California and Texas by amending its constitution to declare them Indian states. Its an absurd argument on your part.



> UNSC resolutions also demand certain concessions from Pakistan before India can implement the plebiscite. Do your part first, then talk.


Hogwash and Indian propaganda as pointed out to Toxic Pus - please read through my responses to him.


> So Pakistan lets the people from G-B areas live in a state of suspended nationality? How very supportive! Now which is better - a promising future under Indian citizenship or ......


As long as they receive proper governance and avail of all the rights that Pakistanis have and do not experience any hardship (they might be able to travel under a Pakistani passport, even if they are not Pakistani citizens officially), there should be no hardship the people of G-B and AK have to bear.

It is better to give them all the rights and privileges of being a citizen, and opportunities at good governance, while also not illegally annexing the territory, than to illegally occupy and annex them as India has done, in violation of its commitment to the Kashmiris and others.


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## Omar1984

*Peace, stability in South Asia cannot materialize without resolving Kashmir dispute: Gilani *


LONDON, Dec 2 (APP): Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani on Wednesday said peace and stability in the region cannot materialize unless the lingering dispute of Kashmir is resolved peacefully through negotiations. He said Pakistan desires peaceful relations with India and desires that the stalled Composite Dialogue. For the elimination of terrorism, regional cooperation was vital, Gilani told a large gathering of Pakistani community members here at a local hotel, soon after his arrival in the British capital where he is slated to hold talks with its leaders.

He mentioned the successful military operations carried out in Swat and Malakand against terrorists and said the operation in South Waziristan was also proceeding with success.

The Prime Minister said the entire nation stood behind the government in its move to eradicate militants.

Prime Minister Gilani said Baitullah Mahsood, who was responsible for the assassination of Shaheed Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto, has also been killed during the successful military operation.

He paid tribute to the residents of Malakand who left their homes for the countrys sake and hoped that FATAs affected persons would also return to their homes soon.

The Prime Minister appreciated the expatriate Pakistani community for their generous donations for PMs Fund for Swat and Malakand.
He however asked them for a collective policy rather than individual one by adopting a village in Swat, Malakand and FATA and then fulfill their basic necessities.

The Prime Minister said at the end of the counter-terrorism operation in FATA, the government would announce a reform package on the pattern of the one for Gilgit Baltistan.

He said the military operation was a success and the government was trying to bring the people there into the main stream by providing the people there all basic facilities of health, education, besides providing them vocational training.

Gilani said today Pakistan was confronting with several issues including national security, economy and social welfare and stressed the need to improve them for a smooth journey to development and prosperity.

He said the government was paying due focus on resolving these issues and would utilize all resources in this regard.

He also mentioned the seriousness of the government to work for the rights of the people of Balochistan and assured that their due rights will be given to them as it was their basic right.

Gilani said in democracy all political parties were free to propagate their manifestoes, however said that nobody would be allowed to profess hatred, ignorance and narrow-mindedness.

He said the constitution of 1973 will be restored in its original form and democracy will be further strengthened.
1973 Constitution was given by Shaheed Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and we will restore it.

The Prime Minister apprised the Pakistani community of the progress made by country in different areas and said the government has successfully averted the economic crisis through its prudent policies. He said the foreign exchange reserves now stand at 14.7 billion dollars. 

He said the political reconciliation was the hallmark of the government and for the first time the two addresses of the president to the parliament were held without any disturbance.

Gilani said the world realized Pakistans contribution for the war against terrorism and hoped that the pledges made by Friends of Democratic Pakistan worth US $ 5.24 billion, would be fulfilled soon.

He said the government enjoyed the mandate of masses and was working on the policy of reconciliation for the sovereignty of parliament.

The Prime Minister mentioned that for the first time, Leader of the Opposition had been made Chairman Public Accounts Committee to ensure accountability on democratic terms.

Prime Minister Gilani asked the Pakistani community abroad to invest in Pakistans energy, education and Information Technology sectors and assured them that their investment would be safe in Pakistan.

He mentioned different measures taken for poverty reduction and for the encouragement of domestic and international investment including the creation of special economic zones and introducing new investment schemes.

Gilani said in purview of the governments petroleum policy, the British Petroleum company had made an investment of 30 million dollar in Pakistan. 

He said under the Benazir Bhutto Income Support Program, 2.4 million households were being provided economic assistance, adding other areas including FATA, Northern Areas, Azad Jammu and Kashmir, Chitral, North and South Waziristan, Kohistan and Tharparker would also benefit from the scheme.

The Prime Minister said the government would resolve on priority basis the problems of Pakistani community in UK including property issues, problems of minorities, insufficient services of High Commission and immigration related issues.

He said the government was also seriously considering the longstanding demand of expatriates for casting the vote during election.

He recalled that Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto and Begum Nusrat Bhutto had spent their exile days in London with dignity and activism, and appreciated the services of Pakistan Peoples Partys workers there who stood beside them in the journey to democracy.

Earlier Shah Mahmood Qureshi said what the people see about Pakistan on television was not the real face of the country and it was the doing of only a handful of people who do not want to see the country prosper.

He recalled his meeting with the British Foreign Minister David Miliband who too wants to seek the assistance of the Pakistani community and British Pakistanis who wish to integrate into their new home, while also serve as a bridge between the two countries.

He also asked them to help remove the misperceptions about Pakistan in Britain and vice versa. He said on Dec 11 a Pakistan-America foundation was being inaugurated in New York which will help bridge the two communities. 

Ambassador of Pakistan to the United Kingdom Wajid Shamsul Hassan said the Pakistan Peoples Party has always rendered numerous sacrifices for strengthening of the democracy.


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## MilesTogo

this threat is not working any more...


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## EjazR

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And what responsibility do you place on India to in some way acknowledge and implement the rights given the Kashmiris (and accepted by the GoI at the time) of exercising self-determination to determine which nation they wish to be a part of?
> 
> Pakistan is not the nation violating its commitment of allowing the Kashmiris the choice to determine their future in a UN managed plebiscite.



Ofcourse India has an obligation to resolve the Kashmir issue. We will only be deluding ourselves if we say there is NO problem there. And the same applies to GoP, it has to have a realistic appraisal of the situation on the ground and present that to the Pakistani people i.e. that pro-independance sentiment is the most prominent sentiment not pro-pakistani and that all local militant groups like JKLF have given up arms.

What I am saying is that there should be no support for "non-state" actors who commit violence in the name of Islam, logistically, morally or militarily. And espicially no support from a Jihad point of view. These are counter-productive and against the overwhelming desire of the Kashmiri people who do not want violence, particularly from "Islamic" militant groups like Hizb and LeT that have afterall killed more muslim civilians opposed to their point of view than security personnel.

And post 1995, GoI has considerably learned from its mistakes. Abuses were checked and prosecuted. free and fair elections were conducted. And unlike in the GB polls resently were non of the regional parties like GBDA got any seats, politics in J&K is dominated by the National Conference and PDP both of which are regional parties. Besides, any sepratist leader can go ahead and contest elections win and resign in protest to proove their popularity. But they wont because they know they won't get popular mandate. Infact some have tried and *lost*.
Kashmiri separatist leader to contest India election | World | Reuters


Moreover, both major parties in India, the BJP as well as the Congress have focussed on resolving the kashmir dispute along with Musharraf, so there is some attempt to resolve there. You can't say that India is not doing anything to resolve the dispute. 
Currently there is renewed focus and hopefully this time we will see some solid results. The resolution will not make ALL groups happy ofcourse, but if the majority of the Kashmiri people support it, the rest will have to live with it.

I suggest you do read through the Kashmir conflict report on www.peacepolls.org . That will give you a better perspective of why the plebescite is not the solution, espicially since what the sepratists want is Independance, and the UNSC resolutions have no provision for that. I just quote a part of the conclusions here


> Remarkably, when it came to the critical issues of the constitution the top priority (from a list of 29) was 'J and K should be a secular state' at 68&#37; 'essential or desirable'. And although it will come as no surprise that 63% of *Muslims in the Kashmir Valley* reject the constitutional status quo of remaining with India as 'totally unacceptable' 69% of that same population also considered a merger with Pakistan to be 'totally unacceptable'. So a UN plebiscite that is limited to these two options (a priority for Muslims at 71% 'essential or desirable') can not solve the problem of Kashmir. The only way forward is negotiation and that is what the people want. Not the corrupt street politics of sectarian division and communal strife.



Note this is only muslims in Kashmir valley here. Add the Hindu Pandits as well and the muslims from Jammu and Ladakh as well as non-muslims there who are all pro-Indian and the statistics will change further.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Ejaz, what the Kashmiris likely want more than anything else is to be out of limbo and not have their land divided.

A plebiscite allowing them to choose between the two options at least removes one major hurdle, possibly unites them and ends that 'state of limbo'.

I agree with you on rejecting violence before such a solution is implemented, which is why on the 'Kashmir solutions' thread you actually had some Indians and many Pakistanis supporting the idea that the two nations agree to hold a plebiscite in at least the AK & Kashmir parts of J&K after a period of ten years in which violence was rejected and the two nations made their case. Yet such a sensible solution continues to find few takers amongst Indians and definitely no traction with the Indian government.

If India really believes in the strength of its ideals and its 'secularism' and pluralism, then it should let those ideals do the talking and allow Kashmiris to make that choice.

Pakistanis appear to have far more confidence in the ideology of their nation winning over the Kashmiris than Indians do in theirs.

The ball is in India's court on this issue - as a Pakistani I have little faith in India's intentions after years of procrastination and delays, it is time India took some initiative and engaged with Pakistan on the dispute instead of repeating the age old mantra of 'status quo'.


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## Hulk

This is acceptence that they support terrorist otherwise what does he mean by it.


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## Novice09

We lost the best chance in 1971 to resolve J&K issue at our own terms.

Now, both sides have just two options:

1. Talks
2. War

I'll prefer 1st option since war will result in doom for both (winner and looser).


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## EjazR

I don't agree that India is happy with status quo on kashmir. Although it can afford to do so, it is unwise and counterproductive. There are every day reports of 'quiet diplomacy' and now 'withdrawal of troops' and 'autonomy proposals' which show that there is considerable movement there. Sartaj Aziz the Pakistani negotiater on Kashmir had mentioned that broad contours are already in place for the solution. And Mushrraf and MMS both have said that they were very close to a solution before his ouster because of his frankly speaking stupid mistakes.

So this makes me think that at a politcal level there is considerable movement happening. The end result should be open or blurring of borders for people of J&K as MMS said. Although it is going to be a long time in the making before that happens. At a time when countries around the world are blurring borders and willingly joining and giving up soverignity around the world to form economic unions like EU, ASEAN GCC e.t.c., it would be a step backwards if we in south asia end up going in the opposite way.


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## EjazR

Backdoor channel diplomacy on Kashmir issue made headway: Kasuri - GEO.tv

Updated at: 2348 PST, Wednesday, December 02, 2009
Backdoor channel diplomacy on Kashmir issue made headway: Kasuri LAHORE: Former foreign minister Khurshid Mahmud Kasuri said Wednesday that progress was made on the Kashmir issue through backdoor channel diplomacy.

Speaking at a forum held on Pakistan-India ties, he said that the issue would head toward solution whenever the situation between the two countries improved.

On the other hand, he noted that corruptions on part of the rulers had left negative implications on the national morale. Pakistan have many internal and external enemies, he said, adding that time was not right for being emotional.

Kasuri further observed that India could not wage war with Pakistan directly but it could increase its infiltration in FATA and Balochistan.


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## Pro Pak

This forum has nothing to do with Pakistan.

It is a mouth piece for Ultra Secular ex-pakistani traitors.

The proper name of this forum should be ZIONIST INDIAN FORUM.

The mods and admin has nothing to do with Islam and Pakistan.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Pro Pak said:


> This forum has nothing to do with Pakistan.
> 
> It is a mouth piece for Ultra Secular ex-pakistani traitors.
> 
> The proper name of this forum should be ZIONIST INDIAN FORUM.
> 
> The mods and admin has nothing to do with Islam and Pakistan.


*
If you don't like the forum then don't post here - otherwise stay on topic and follow the rules.*


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

EjazR said:


> At a time when countries around the world are blurring borders and willingly joining and giving up soverignity around the world to form economic unions like EU, ASEAN GCC e.t.c., it would be a step backwards if we in south asia end up going in the opposite way.



Economic unions and greater cooperation cannot come about while disputes fester and a sense of injustice prevails - to not resolve these disputes and talk of 'economic unions' and the like is to put the cart before the horse.

If the people of various nations perceive unions as being in their interest then unions will happen regardless of whether territorial disputes are settled one way or another - South Asia is not Europe, the wounds are too fresh and the disputes still fester and the nations too young to give up sovereignty as part of a union any time soon. Settling Kashmir by allowing the Kashmiris in some way to exercise their right to self determination in some format, even if a decade down the line, is the moral solution.

Irfan Hussein's observations in his recent column on how the youth in both nations is in fact becoming more antagonistic and viewing the other side with even more hostility bears out my point about how a lack of progress on dispute resolution is not going to smooth the way for broader engagement.


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## EjazR

*@AM*
When I referred to moving forward in the EU context, I was mainly referring to the non-viability of the emergence of an independent Kashmir valley state (as these are the people that mostly want it). They cant survive without economic integration with their neighbours, so having a nominal independence surrounded by three nuclear powers would hardly solve their problem. Although ofcourse the same argument applies to wider SAARC region.

Was it not just 60 odd years ago that the people Germany and Italy were humiliated with a crushing defeat? Infact, Germany was divided and under de-facto occupation of western powers and USSR till 1991. The Europeans killed millions of their people not in some unplanned riots that states were trying to control but with state sanctioned intentions and modern weapons of all kinds. Their wounds and our wounds are equally fresh or old and brutal. And when Germany was finally getting united, there were apprehensions that the Germans would turn back into a militaristic state but they didnt. Its about thinking with a vision towards the future. 

Pakistan cant succeed without economic co-operation with its neigbour region and neither can India achieve its true potential by having an antagonistic Pakistan. Just because the youth on both sides dont think this way doesnt change this fact. That is why IPI and TAPI are important to having joint stake hold of peace in the region. Same goes for upholding the Indus Water Treaty for example. This is how antagonistic thoughts will be changed. What I am talking about is long term, say 2 -3 decades in the future obviously with progressively improving relations and resolution of outstanding disputes.


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Hogwash - you need to actually pay better attention to the UNSC resolutions:
> 
> *PART II*​*
> 
> TRUCE AGREEMENT*
> 
> _Simultaneously with the acceptance of the proposal for the immediate cessation of hostilities as outlined in Part I, both Governments accept the following principles as a basis for the formulation of a truce agreement, *the details of which shall be worked out in discussion between their Representatives and the Commission.*
> 
> 1. (l) As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State.
> 
> (2) The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavor to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting. _
> 
> ========
> 
> As you can clearly see above, the withdrawal of the Tribesmen (whose presence in J&K any more I am not aware of) was also contingent on the tripartite negotiations mentioned.


BS. You have just rehashed your same-size-fits-all argument of 'tripartite negotiation'.

Part II.A had limited application and was meant for the immediate aftermath of cease fire. Part II.B on the other hand lays down the conditions for withdrawal of Indian troops which, in no uncertain terms, state that removal of 'tribesmen and citizens' has to be completed, before India even agrees to reduce its troop strength. The reason was simple. India had complained that the presence of 'tribesmen and Pakistani citizens' had necessitated mobilization of Indian troops in Kashmir. If these 'citizens' were withdrawn, it would mean that the situation had diffused. Therefore, the need for Indian troops to stay in Kashmir would cease. The process of demilitarization could then begin. 

In fact, India had made it clear to Frank Graham, who was responsible to formulate the demilitarization plan (not Owen Dixon, btw), that India needed more troops in the valley, than it was proposed in the plan of demilitarization, because of the presence of these 'citizens', almost all of whom were armed, and a significant number of whom were even trained and formed a part of 'Azad Kashmir force'.

So why didn't Pakistan agree to withdraw its 'tribesmen and citizens', which clearly would have weakened India's position? Why didn't Pakistan 'negotiate' on this particular issue? A better question would be, what did Pakistan expect to negotiate with India, with regard to withdrawal of its own 'citizens'?


> And Owen Dix*on*'s report does lay the blame on India's doorstep, and that position is in fact validated by Indian analysts as well, who try to justify that obstructionism by arguing that any thing aside from the Indian position of a unilateral, unconditional withdrawal by Pakistan would be tantamount to 'rewarding' Pakistani aggression.


Owen Dixon's comments, that you so love to quote every once in a while, were made after the talks with Nehru and Liaquat failed. That was not the end of negotiations though. It was only after this failure, Dixon came up with the concept of 'partial plebiscite' on Nehru's advice. That failed, because Dixon wanted to dismiss Abdullah's elected government, in the event of 'partial plebiscite'. Thats another topic. Maybe some other time.

'Unilateral, unconditional' withdrawal of Pakistani forces is a matter of technicality which GoI officially maintains to this day. In reality, while negotiating with Dr Frank Graham, India had agreed to his plans of demilitarization, provided Pakistan removed all its armed 'citizens' and disarmed 'Azad Kashmir' force. Else India be allowed to retain a higher number of troops in Kashmir, along with 'artillery and armour'. 

So once again: What stopped Pakistan from withdrawing its own 'citizens' from Kashmir, when clearly UN had recognized that only the withdrawal of 'tribesmen and Pakistani citizens' would be considered as the cessation of the situation requiring the presence of Indian troops in Kashmir? Answer to this will also lead to the original question that I had asked earlier - has Kashmir resorted back to the pre-conflict situation, that a plebiscite could be held?

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## EjazR

*Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - Delhi ready to discuss self-determination, says PC*

Srinagar, Dec 02: Admitting that there was a remarkable reduction in violence across J&K during 2009, Union Home Minister Palaniappan Chidambaram Wednesday said government of India was ready to discuss even the demand for right of self-determination. Speaking to the Parliament on Wednesday Chidambaram disclosed that a substantial number of troops would be withdrawn from J&K as a mark of confidence building measure. 

Some groups have put forth a demand for self determination or self rule. However, I feel that a lot of water has flown under the bridge since 1947. So, I dont think the Government should shy away from talks only because some groups have put forth certain kind of demands. Without disclosing who amongst the separatist groups had asked for self-determination, Chidambaram said, "At the appropriate stage, I will share with the House the contours of the settlement that may emerge. I cannot share details of the talks at this moment.
Asked if J&K Chief Minister Omar Abdullah too shared the Centre's perception of having "quiet talks", he said, I think I know Omar Abdullah's position. We are on the same page.

The Home Ministers remarks came just days after Omar, in a shift of stand, favoured triangular talks among India, Pakistan and separatist leadership.

Omar had also offered to be a facilitator if militant outfit Hizbul Mujahideen wanted to come to the negotiating table.
Chidambaram said that Centre will withdraw a significant number of security personnel from Jammu and Kashmir.

The move to withdraw forces is the result of a substantial improvement in the security situation in the state, Chidambaram informed the Rajya Sabha.

Gradually, the handling of law and order in the state will be handed over to the police, he added.

The Home Minister said that the incidents of violence in Jammu and Kashmir have been lowest this year. Problems in J&K are not over; there is still infiltration, but we have given more and more duties to the state police, he said.


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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> We would have absorbed it after having the UN hold a plebiscite there and if it was in our favor, since Pakistanis at least are not afraid of letting the Kashmiris express their opinion in such a plebiscite.
> 
> this argument of Pakistan unilaterally satisfying conditions has been clearly shown to be Indian propaganda - creating conditions conducive to a plebiscite in Kashmir was to be arrived at through a consultative process, as mentioned in the UNSC resolutions.
> 
> No - the responsibility lies with the party that reneged on its commitment (of holding a plebiscite to determine final status) to the UNSC resolutions, to the international community, to Pakistan and most importantly to the Kashmiri people, and unilaterally and illegally annexed the section of J&K under its control.



If it werent for Pakistani aggression in '47, the Maharaja of Kashmir wouldnt have needed to ask India for help (whatever your argument of helping people there against the King's misrule are unfounded because you chose to poke your nose in another state's internal matter). Anyhow, he did agree to concede to India and not to Pakistan. The condition for India was to hold a referendum in the future. However Pakistan's aggression complicated the process and now you have only Pakistan to blame for the mess, in the region as well as for the mess it finds itself in.


> The decision to pursue a political vs a violent path does not indicate that the desire for separatism is gone -
> ....a political process as an occupied people does not mean they want the status quo to continue - participation in the political process is a means to address daily needs such as socio-economic development etc.


That doesnt give any outside party (read Pakistan) the right to interfere in what is basically India-Kashmiri problem. It doesnt give others the right to arm people and instigate them to kill innocents in the name of "freedom struggle".
India could have followed the Chinese way (a la Tibet) of implementing socio-economic development in Kashmir, but it chose not to. Speaks a lot about the common man's desire to participate in the political process.


> Heck, Indians themselves don't buy into this bunk you are selling since they continue to oppose giving Kashmiri's their right to self-determination out of fear that the Kashmiris will choose Pakistan.


You, my friend are living in a dream land if you think the Kashmiris will chose Pakistan instead of India. No way, because I know. Given a choice they will opt for freedom from both India and Pakistan, but Pakistan will not let them be, so the next best option for them is India. And might I add, apart form those brainwashed morons which some elements in Pakistani establishment support, Kashmiris are pretty satisfied.


> As for Pakistan - while the desire to pursue a violent solution to Indian occupation was high Pakistan supported the Kashmiris in that struggle, but to argue that Pakistan continues to do so is the height of ignorance given the record low levels of violence and infiltration (you cannot reduce it 100&#37; given the terrain) and the fact that the GoI has already withdrawn 15,000 troops and Chidambaram today talked of possibly significantly further reducing troops because of the peace there.


Thank the Indian forces and the Indian govt for efficiently dealing with terrorists, and not Pakistani establishment. If you are saying that Pakistan's govt had a hand in reducing this infiltration, it implies that the GoP knows something which would be very bad for Pakistan's health. Anyhow, if given a chance, or if they find an opportunity, those terrorists and their supporters would go for it with renewed vengeance. 


> Don't be childish. Either refute the argument or don't. The position espoused by many Indians that Kashmir is legally theirs simply because the Indian constitution says so is completely akin to the example of India trying to annex California and Texas by amending its constitution to declare them Indian states. Its an absurd argument on your part.


California/Texas do not border India, they have never asked for Indian military help against outside aggressors and they do not share a history with us.
Dont just argue for argument's sake!


> Hogwash and Indian propaganda as pointed out to Toxic Pus - please read through my responses to him.


I did read that. It is not Indian propaganda. India and Pakistan went to the UN when Pakistan invaded Kashmir and failed leading to a military stalemate. had it not been for this blatant aggression against a supposedly independent state, kashmir would never have invited India. So your argument doesnt stand, you are basically beating around the bush.


> It is better to give them all the rights and privileges of being a citizen, and opportunities at good governance, while also not illegally annexing the territory, than to illegally occupy and annex them as India has done, in violation of its commitment to the Kashmiris and others.


Oh and Pakistan stands exonerated of its sins? By not annexing the area but yet showing it as part of Pakistan, and hoping that they join Pakistan instead of India. Yeah, apparently give them the illusion of rights of being a citizen with no voice or representation at the central level, and yet impose your constitution and laws on the people. Very interesting. What does that tell you? What if China imposed its constitution and laws on Bangladesh without annexing it and yet giving all Bangladeshis rights (whatever little they might be) very equal to those enjoyed by Chinese citizens. Or what if Iran does that in Baluchistan?
Why this farce called "Support for Freedom Struggle" when Pakistan so badly wants Kashmir to satisfy its bruised ego?

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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The accession was itself subject to plebiscite, indicated in Mountbatten's acceptance of the instrument of accession (as was done in Junagadh), a position that was endorsed by India's leaders repeatedly - which was never conducted, so you have no locus standi.
> 
> And the GoI took the issue to the UNSC, and accepted the recommendations issued there, which also pointed out the disputed nature of the state.


I forgot to respond to this post.

India is not legally obligated to hold a plebiscite in Kashmir. There is no bipartite/tripartite agreement that binds India legally to plebiscite. Not even UN.

India's 'obligation' arises out of gesture of goodwill. Nothing more.

If annexation of Kashmir is 'illegal', please cite which law did India break.

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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Either refute the argument or don't. The position espoused by many Indians that Kashmir is legally theirs simply because the Indian constitution says so is completely akin to the example of India trying to annex California and Texas by amending its constitution to declare them Indian states. Its an absurd argument on your part.


If the Governors of California and Texas had exercisable sovereign powers and accordingly they chose to sign an Instrument of Accession, then yes, California and Texas would have become a part of India, by simply amending Indian constitution.




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Please see my responses to Toxic-Pus above - this argument of Pakistan unilaterally satisfying conditions has been clearly shown to be Indian propaganda - creating conditions conducive to a plebiscite in Kashmir was to be arrived at through a consultative process, as mentioned in the UNSC resolutions.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Hogwash and Indian propaganda as pointed out to Toxic Pus - please read through my responses to him.


At least allow your opponent to respond before doing that i-have-debunked-the-whole-world dance routine.

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## makikirkiri

Windjammer said:


> The Sunday Telegraph (London) recently carried out a full page article on the extent of Naxals insurgency detailing that it has spread to 23 Indian States.


 If you could kindly provide the links to the articles you are talking about, I could educate my poor self of the spread of naxals to "23" out of 28 indian states.


Windjammer said:


> Oh if it's not misconception, it's misinformation, hell the British media is loosing all it's credibility.


 Oh my!you don't need to be so hasty.may be you could enlighten me by giving references.


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## ajpirzada

what does mr manmohan has to say now about not goin the chinease way.....


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## Halaku Khan

*Mirwaiz aide critically injured in militant attack: Rediff.com India News*


Last updated on: December 04, 2009 19:15 IST

An executive member of the All party Hurriyat conference was shot and critically injured, near his house in Soura, in Srinagar [ Images ]. A senior police officer said that Fazal-Haq-Qureshi, who was the chairman of the People's Political Front was reportedly shoy in the head. Qureshi Has been shifted to Soura Medical Institute ina critical condition.

The moderate APHC faction, headed by Moulvi Mirwaiz Omar Farooq is supposedly engaged in secret parleys with the Indian government.

Mukhtar Ahmed in Srinagar

-------------------------------------------------------

^^^ Not a good sign. There are autonomy-related consultations going on and GoI should protect the lives of participants.


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## deckingraj

*Hurriyat leader Qureshi shot at, condition critical *

Senior Hurriyat leader Fazal Haq Qureshi was shot in the head by suspected terrorists at Soura on Friday evening.

*Mr. Qureshi, considered as one of the moderate separatists, was shot by terrorists when he was coming out of the mosque in downtown of the city, police said.*

He has been rushed to Soura Medical Institute where he was being operated upon, they said, adding his condition was stated by the doctors as very very critical.

Mr. Qureshi was behind the first ever peace talks between terrorist group Hizbul Mujahideen and the Central government in 2000. The militant group was led by Abdul Majid Dar.

*According to senior police officials, the attempt on the life of Mr. Qureshi was to stall the dialogue process between the Centre and the Hurriyat.

They said the separatist leader had refused security from the State government. *


The Hindu : News / National : Hurriyat leader Qureshi shot at, condition critical



********************************************************************************
I can understand these leaders not taking help from State Government for obvious reasons however what is stopping them from ensuring their security by say having private security..I am sure money should not be an issue for them...Anyways I hope he will come out sound and well ........ 

On contrary i think the silent diplomacy might be working which is making these bloody terrorists nervous

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## Halaku Khan

*'Militants in Kashmir valley dying of diseases', says former militant - dnaindia.com*

Friday, December 4, 2009 13:07 IST

Jammu: Militants in the Kashmir valley are increasingly finding it difficult to get medical aid and many of them are dying due to various diseases and bullet wounds, a surrendered ultra has claimed.

"Most of the militants, particularly lower cadres, are suffering from various diseases, infections and bullet injuries," 24-year-old Abdul Kayum Wani, a former militant, said. Wani, who was initially employed as a teacher in a Chenab school at Doda, joined Hizbul Mujahideen in May 2007.

"Most of the terrorists have a life span of 2-3 years as they are either shot dead by the security forces or die of bullet injuries, infections and related medical problems," Wani said.

Army officials say these militants should surrender so that they get proper treatment. "These militants should surrender and join the mainstream. They would get treatment and would recover from the diseases and can start a new life instead of slowly dying of the disease", a senior army officer told PTI.

Over 300 militants operate in Chenab valley area at present and most of them are from Hizbul outfit, he said. According to Wani, many senior militant leaders are also suffering from various ailments. He said a self-styled district commander of Hizbul Jamed Ahmed survived an encounter with army in Doda last year but is crippled due to a splinter injury in the back.

Another self-styled militant commander Abdul Qayum is suffering from diabetes and takes insulin injections regularly, Wani said, adding Qayum's left toe is also affected by frost bite.

Similarly, another militant Khursheed Ahmed has severe back problem and cannot walk long distances, Wani said. Giving details of other militants suffering from various problems, he said 22-years-old section commander Noor Mohammad Wani cannot use his left arm properly while LeT commander Ashiq Hussain has stones in his kidney.

When doctors advised him an operation, his seniors refused to give him money and abandoned him. He was later arrested by the police, he claimed. "These terrorists are left with only one option at this stage - do or die," Wani said.


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## deckingraj

More related news

******************************************************************
*Attack on Qureshi an attempt to derail peace process: Omar *

Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah on Friday condemned the attack on Hurriyat leader Fazal Haq Qureshi *saying that it was an attempt to derail the peace process in the State.*

*&#8220;It is the most unfortunate incident and a clear attempt to derail the peace process. Qureshi was one of the separatist leaders who wanted to find a solution to Kashmir problem at the negotiating table,&#8221;* Mr. Omar Abdullah said here.

Asked as to who could be behind the heinous crime, Mr. Omar Abdullah said, *&#8220;things will unfold in due course of investigations but definitely it is the handiwork of those who do not want peace to return to the State.*

&#8220;This is the work of enemies of peace,&#8221; the Chief Minister said, adding &#8220;this incident won&#8217;t be an impediment in the quiet diplomacy that is going on between the Centre and the separatists.&#8221;

*The Chief Minister said Mr. Qureshi was offered security on various occasions but he turned it down.*

Union Minister Farooq Abdullah also condemned the incident and said, &#8220;it is a great tragedy. Those who do not want peace have started targeting such people who are interested in peace.&#8221;

Senior CPI(M) leader Mohammed Yusuf Tarigami said this was carried out by frustrated people who did not want Kashmiris to live in peace

The Hindu : News / National : Attack on Qureshi an attempt to derail peace process: Omar


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## Iggy

deckingraj said:


> More related news
> 
> ******************************************************************
> *Attack on Qureshi an attempt to derail peace process: Omar *
> 
> Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah on Friday condemned the attack on Hurriyat leader Fazal Haq Qureshi *saying that it was an attempt to derail the peace process in the State.*
> 
> *It is the most unfortunate incident and a clear attempt to derail the peace process. Qureshi was one of the separatist leaders who wanted to find a solution to Kashmir problem at the negotiating table,* Mr. Omar Abdullah said here.
> 
> Asked as to who could be behind the heinous crime, Mr. Omar Abdullah said, *things will unfold in due course of investigations but definitely it is the handiwork of those who do not want peace to return to the State.*
> 
> This is the work of enemies of peace, the Chief Minister said, adding this incident wont be an impediment in the quiet diplomacy that is going on between the Centre and the separatists.
> 
> *The Chief Minister said Mr. Qureshi was offered security on various occasions but he turned it down.*
> 
> Union Minister Farooq Abdullah also condemned the incident and said, it is a great tragedy. Those who do not want peace have started targeting such people who are interested in peace.
> 
> Senior CPI(M) leader Mohammed Yusuf Tarigami said this was carried out by frustrated people who did not want Kashmiris to live in peace
> 
> The Hindu : News / National : Attack on Qureshi an attempt to derail peace process: Omar



Yes its a very sad attempt to stall the peace talk between government and separatist...Somebody dont want peace in Kashmir


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## Halaku Khan

*The Hindu : News / National : Troops withdrawal in J&K planned*

The Centre announced on Wednesday its intention to draw down a significant number of battalions from Jammu & Kashmir and reiterated its commitment to hold quiet talks with all Kashmiri groups far away from the media.

Speaking on two occasions in the Rajya Sabha, once while replying to a short duration discussion on internal security and earlier during Question Hour, Union Home Minister P. Chidamabaram said he would not specify the number of battalions that would be pulled out from the State.

Increasingly, the Central police forces were transferring the task of maintaining law and order to the J&K police, which reflected the changing atmosphere in the State. Noting the success in neutralising infiltrating cadres and its commanders in J&K, the Home Minister said that the incidence of violence, both against civilians and security forces, was the lowest in 2009. However, as infiltration continued, vigil could not be lowered.

On Jammu & Kashmir, Mr. Chidambaram declined to go into the specifics of his proposal to hold talks with every shade of political opinion. When I had an opportunity to explain the scope of the talks, I said that these will be quiet talks, quiet diplomacy, far away from the glare of the media. We stand by that statement and I can only tell this House that there are encouraging responses, he observed.

Asked why he was holding talks with separatists and not with the Maoists, Mr. Chidambaram said a new generation of leaders had taken over many of the Kashmiri groups and he did not think the government should shy away from talking to them just because they had phrased a demand in a particular manner. On recent observations by J&K Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, Mr. Chidambaram did not think we should take one sentence of a speech or one statement made here and there and say that is a policy declaration. I have met with Mr. Abdullah several times. I can assure the House and the Leader of the Opposition that we are on the same page.


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## Bullhead

Rant begins- This is a conspiracy by RAW to destablize kashmir and buy some more time for Indian Army to stay in Kashmir..... Rant Ends.


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## EjazR

I hope he makes a quick recovery. Very unfortunate. So many Kashmiri leaders have been killed by these terrorists in cold blood.

More importantly is that the culprits should be caught as well as there are clearly trouble makers on the loose.

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## deckingraj

> More importantly is that the culprits should be caught as well as there are clearly trouble makers on the loose.



Well Kashmir is a dangerous place so i can understand the trouble makers on loose part..However what bother me is the statement below



> The Chief Minister said Mr. Qureshi was offered security on various occasions but he turned it down.



These guys should be more careful about their security especially when there are peace talks going on with Center...We all know these terrorists don't want peace and will do anything to derail it...However such incidents also bring out their true face...Hope our people(Kashmiri's) are watching this...

Though i want to make a little controvertial statement...Whenever some innocent civilian is killed by Army(or for that matter Army hand is suspected) Kashmir just boils down...but when such incidents happen life just goes on as normal...


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## Srinivas

This incident happened when the silent peace talks are about to yield good results


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## Awesome

What if the Indians shot him? Historically speaking, the Hurriyat leaders have been the most outspoken anti-Indian group of them all. Kashmiri leaders are mostly all moderates. They fight to free themselves, out necessity, and in self-defence. Not for any extremist ideology.

I think the concept of moderate and extremist is lost on the Indian media. One can be a strong opponent, can fight, while still a moderate. When we categorize in terms of moderate and extremist, we do so on the basis of ideology.

So far we only have hordes of the Indian officials pinning this on the separatists (which makes no sense if you don't buy in to the Indian official propaganda), nothing yet from APHC.

Remember Qureshi is close to Mirwaiz, and we all know how Mirwaiz feels about India. Also the biggest militant group, the Hizb ul Mujahideen has held a ceasefire with the Indians for the most part since the peace process began, simply on the instructions Qureshi. I think its a pretty big leap from ordering the biggest militant group, to being shot at by them.

Simply put, its a pretty big yarn to spin that the militants were so irked by talks with the Indians (which they have been demanding btw) that they figured, lets kill one of the guys talking to them (as if there won't be another in the APHC to talk with India then).

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## U-571

Bullhead said:


> Rant begins- This is a conspiracy by RAW to destablize kashmir and buy some more time for Indian Army to stay in Kashmir..... Rant Ends.



the funniest thing is, ISI shot this guy, lol 

and why u call it rant when somebody says indians tried to kill him, huriyat is a problem for indians, arent they??


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## deckingraj

*@U-571*



> and why u call it rant when somebody says indians tried to kill him, huriyat is a problem for indians, arent they??



No sir...Hurriyat is not a problem for india...Our problem is Terrorists...Hurriyat is a faction which is for resolving issues peacefully....In fact Hurriayt is precious for GOI and a role model for Kashmiri youth(who are/were anti-india) not to take up arms but resolve the issue peacefully...It is counter-productive to kill Hurriyat leaders for GOI..However killing hurriyat leaders by terrorists who don't want any peace process to move forward between GOI and Hurriyat makes sense in this context...Don't you think so?? Secondly tell me does it make sense to kill people with whom you have initiated peace talks at such a large scale(refering to quite diplomacy)...Don't you see India's plan to pull off Army on such a large scale is direct outcome of these peace initiative(one of the demads of Hurriyat)....


I hope you can consider my points without the usual bias of India-Pak equation that we all suffer from...

*@Asim*



> Remember Qureshi is close to Mirwaiz, and we all know how Mirwaiz feels about India. Also the biggest militant group, the Hizb ul Mujahideen has held a ceasefire with the Indians for the most part since the peace process began, simply on the instructions Qureshi. I think its a pretty big leap from ordering the biggest militant group, to being shot at by them.
> 
> 
> Simply put, its a pretty big yarn to spin that the militants were so irked by talks with the Indians (which they have been demanding btw) that they figured, lets kill one of the guys talking to them (as if there won't be another in the APHC to talk with India then).


Sir don't you think you kind of contradict yourself with these two statements??...Atleast i find it that way...In the first you have emphasized on how important Qureshi is...in the second you seems to suggest that even his death should not have any impact on Talks thus it don't make sense for militants to kill him...

I have shared some of my thoughts above as to why i feel its the job of militants...but would like to spin your question towards you...If killing Qureshi is of no use then why would GOI kill him???


Regards

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## deckingraj

Here we go...



> *A militant outfit Alnasireen has owned up responsibility for the attack*. According to local news agency KNS, a spokesman of the outfit claimed that the attack was carried out by them as Mr. Qureshi was playing an important role in dialogue with New Delhi.



The Hindu : News / National : Pro-dialogue Hurriyat leader attacked


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## Awesome

deckingraj said:


> *@U-571*
> 
> 
> 
> No sir...Hurriyat is not a problem for india...Our problem is Terrorists...Hurriyat is a faction which is for resolving issues peacefully....In fact Hurriayt is precious for GOI and a role model for Kashmiri youth(who are/were anti-india) not to take up arms but resolve the issue peacefully...It is counter-productive to kill Hurriyat leaders for GOI..However killing hurriyat leaders by terrorists who don't want any peace process to move forward between GOI and Hurriyat makes sense in this context...Don't you think so?? Secondly tell me does it make sense to kill people with whom you have initiated peace talks at such a large scale(refering to quite diplomacy)...Don't you see India's plan to pull off Army on such a large scale is direct outcome of these peace initiative(one of the demads of Hurriyat)....
> 
> 
> I hope you can consider my points without the usual bias of India-Pak equation that we all suffer from...
> 
> *@Asim*
> 
> 
> Sir don't you think you kind of contradict yourself with these two statements??...Atleast i find it that way...In the first you have emphasized on how important Qureshi is...in the second you seems to suggest that even his death should not have any impact on Talks thus it don't make sense for militants to kill him...
> 
> I have shared some of my thoughts above as to why i feel its the job of militants...but would like to spin your question towards you...If killing Qureshi is of no use then why would GOI kill him???
> 
> 
> Regards


Actually it depends if you're Indian or Kashmiri...

APHC (M), which is close to Pakistan would want Kashmiris to be included in the talks. Remember our position for long has been that a Kashmir solution has to be trilateral and not bilateral. The third party being the Kashmiris. 

The other thing is Indian government has acknowledged that it is withdrawing two battalions from Kashmir as a sign of goodwill at these talks. So they seem to be benefiting the separatists (non-violent separatists, hopefully).

Someone from India might have wanted to chance it out that the talks would derail since the Indian government rolled the ball on troop pullout. I'm pretty sure there are varying point of views in India on this.

A very odd and new name claims responsibility. Al Nasireen. The Supporters. Very Arab and very different from the Urdu names like Lashkar-e-Tayyaba. I'm saying it sounds made up.

Now a terrorist killing to disrupt peace talks won't call up and admit to it, won't he let the talks "disrupt" and let India take the blame for it?


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## Hulk

If Indians were really interested in killing Hurriyat leader Geelani would have been dead long back. He is the one who is creating more troubles for India rather then anyone else, and it would have been done long back not now. So your argument is baseless.

Infact if this is possible that we can get someone eliminated then we should go for Geelani next time he creates trouble. He is defiantly hired to create trouble.


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## deckingraj

> Actually it depends if you're Indian or Kashmiri...



To me there is no difference....A kashmiri is as much Indian as i am...Though i respect your different perception yet i would appreciate if you respect the sentiments of other side as well...I am sure you would understand how it feels if i make some calls like "if you are a Pakistani or from Balochistan"...



> APHC (M), which is close to Pakistan would want Kashmiris to be included in the talks. Remember our position for long has been that a Kashmir solution has to be trilateral and not bilateral. The third party being the Kashmiris.



Exactly and one of reason you would not like to have any progress between GOI and Hurriyat over Kashmir without you being a party...Also i have no intentions of bringing in ISI or PAK in this....I am just responding to your statement...


> The other thing is Indian government has acknowledged that it is withdrawing two battalions from Kashmir as a sign of goodwill at these talks. So they seem to be benefiting the separatists (non-violent separatists, hopefully).



So far i am in agreement with you....



> Someone from India might have wanted to chance it out that the talks would derail since the Indian government rolled the ball on troop pullout. I'm pretty sure there are varying point of views in India on this.



Here you are wrong...India unanimously want troops reduction in Kashmir...Though a rare moment yet this is one issue on which all parties(Govt and Opposition) at center as well as state level are unanimous...Now i cannot vouch if some freak is hell-bent on destroying this...However as far as GOI is concerned be rest assured every one is in agreement on Troops Reduction...



> A very odd and new name claims responsibility. Al Nasireen. The Supporters. Very Arab and very different from the Urdu names like Lashkar-e-Tayyaba. I'm saying it sounds made up. Now a terrorist killing to disrupt peace talks won't call up and admit to it, won't he let the talks "disrupt" and let India take the blame for it?




Well i am not surprised you have a different opinion...Obviously what else can you expect from years of animosity...If i were you i might have also taken your path...However all i am requesting is to challenge the obvious...GOI will choose Hurriyat over Terrorist at any given time because of obvious reasons...As i did before let me spin your question again...If i want to kill someone and put the blame on someone else would i choose an existing terror group or will choose "A very odd and new name"...What say???


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## deckingraj

> Infact if this is possible that we can get someone eliminated then we should go for Geelani next time he creates trouble. He is defiantly hired to create trouble.


Rest assured even killing him won't help...if it was just Geelani we might have done that long back...However he is not alone...he has significant backing of Kashmiri's...In one of the interview Mr Omar Abdullah very candidly said that "there were more people in a rally called by Separatist than number who came to listen to me"....Long story short it is imperative to keep people like him and bring them on negotiation table...If he acts like an *** then kill the public support by doing the right things....

Troops reduction will do wonders to trust building that GOI needs to win Kashmiri hearts which for multiple reasons filled with lot of grudge against GOI...


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## Awesome

deckingraj said:


> To me there is no difference....A kashmiri is as much Indian as i am...Though i respect your different perception yet i would appreciate if you respect the sentiments of other side as well...I am sure you would understand how it feels if i make some calls like "if you are a Pakistani or from Balochistan"...


Sorry can't do that. To me a Kashmiri is a Kashmiri till the people of Kashmir vote to say otherwise in a UN administered plebiscite. I don't say this out of spite as you have suggested the Balochistan example but this is a core fundamental belief of mine as a Pakistani and as a human that Kashmiris are a separate nation.



> Exactly and one of reason you would not like to have any progress between GOI and Hurriyat over Kashmir without you being a party...Also i have no intentions of bringing in ISI or PAK in this....I am just responding to your statement...


How do you know our blessings aren't behind this? Indian troops did withdraw from J&K, it is a pro-Pakistan unification party, which in the case of a plebiscite bodes well for us. Yes if it was JKLF and not APHC then we might have some cause for concern, then too we know they would never accept Indian administration of Kashmir either, with APHC we know they would keep pushing our PR out into the Kashmiri populace.

So far i am in agreement with you....



> Here you are wrong...India unanimously want troops reduction in Kashmir...Though a rare moment yet this is one issue on which all parties(Govt and Opposition) at center as well as state level are unanimous...Now i cannot vouch if some freak is hell-bent on destroying this...However as far as GOI is concerned be rest assured every one is in agreement on Troops Reduction...



That remains to be seen, I think the hawks in India are cautiously watching before making strong comments.



> Well i am not surprised you have a different opinion...Obviously what else can you expect from years of animosity...If i were you i might have also taken your path...However all i am requesting is to challenge the obvious...GOI will choose Hurriyat over Terrorist at any given time because of obvious reasons...As i did before let me spin your question again...If i want to kill someone and put the blame on someone else would i choose an existing terror group or will choose "A very odd and new name"...What say???



Well then nothing can be proven, but yet the Indian government as it always does, wasted no time in providing the culprit and the motive behind the attack and what do you know, its proven right by an admission.

Thats why I asked "What if India shot him?" Which is more likely, given that the result the Hurriyat group has produced is in the direction which we want things to go.


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## deckingraj

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I guess then all we have to do is wait and watch....Only few statements where i disagree...


> How do you know our blessings aren't behind this?



Any peace agreement bilaterally between GOI and Hurriyat will undermine Pakistani long term stand of trilateral dialogue between GOI..Pak and Kashmiri's...and bolden India's stand of solving Kashmir issue separately with PAK(for P-O-K) and with Hurriyat(internal matter)...So you can understand the obvious reasons for me to suspect...



> Yes if it was JKLF and not APHC then we might have some cause for concern,* then too we know they would never accept Indian administration of Kashmir* either



You never know what is going behind the doors...neither do I..However more autonomy in Indian Part of Kashmir may be acceptable to them...What can i say lets wait and watch....



> Well then nothing can be proven, but yet the Indian government as it always does, wasted no time in providing the culprit and the motive behind the attack and what do you know, its proven right by an admission.


\

No one has provided any culprit....In fact no one has been caught(Please let me know in case i missed this news)...All GOI said is that its the work of a terrorists and one group claimed its responsibility(a usual practice)....


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## Halaku Khan

Asim Aquil said:


> What if the Indians shot him? Historically speaking, the Hurriyat leaders have been the most outspoken anti-Indian group of them all. Kashmiri leaders are mostly all moderates. They fight to free themselves, out necessity, and in self-defence. Not for any extremist ideology.



There are many Kashmiri leaders that have been assassinated by Pakistan-based militant groups. Mirwaiz's father was one of them. Sajjad Lone's father was another.

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## EjazR

Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - Jolt to quiet talks

Srinagar, Dec 04: Senior separatist leader and Hurriyat (M) executive member Fazal Haq Qureshi was shot at from a close range outside his Soura residence Friday evening, injuring him critically.
Hurriyat (M) chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has called for Kashmir bandh on Saturday while the faction led by Syed Ali Geelani has smelt conspiracy behind the attack.

SP Hazratbal Maqsood-u-Zaman told Rising Kashmir that unidentified gunmen shot at Hurriyat (M) leader Fazal Haq Qureshi from close range at 5.45 pm while he was coming out of a Masjid near his residence in Bilal Colony Soura after offering evening prayers.
He said nobody has seen the people, who carried out the attack as it was dark.

Police have registered a case and started investigations, he said.
According to police sources, they already had the intelligence input that four to five members of the separatist leadership may be targeted. 

Qureshi, who is one of the pro-dialogue leaders in Hurriyat (M), was immediately shifted to SKIMS where he was operated upon by a team of doctors. The doctors, however, could not say with certainty what caused the injury.

A team of three doctors including two neurosurgeons and anesthetist operated Qureshi along with other associates including the elder daughter of the separatist leader, who is also a medico. Debridement surgery has been performed and he is on ventilator now. However, everything will depend on his behavior after surgery. The picture is not gloomy but we cannot say anything with confidence yet. We have to wait at least for next six hours, Medical Superintendent SKIMS Dr. Syed Amin Tabish told Rising Kashmir.
About the nature of injury Dr. Tabish said, We have not found any bullet in the head. It may be a blunt injury as well.
The 66-year old Hurriyat (M) leader is among the few members in the moderate faction, who are in favor of the dialogue process. He along with Bilal Lone was recently assigned to get separatist leadership outside the ambit of Hurriyat (M) on board for a fresh dialogue with New Delhi.

Immediately after the incident, Hurriyat (M) chairman Mirwaiz Muhammad Umer Farooq, executive members Prof Abdul Gani Bhat and Bilal Gani Lone and senior member Nayeem Khan visited the hospital. They were camping in SKIMS.

Qureshi was behind the first ever peace talks between Hizbul Mujahideen and Government of India in 2000. 
He was also part of Al-Fateh movement in 1960s and has spent some time in jail with Maqbool Bhat.

Meanwhile, Hurriyat Conference (M) chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has called for complete shutdown on December 5 (Saturday).
Kashmir bandh will be observed on Saturday against the heinous act. It is done by those who dont want Kashmir issue to get resolved peacefully, said Mirwaiz.
Hurriyat (G) spokesperson Ayaz Akbar while condemning the act said, It is a worst form of terrorism. It is a conspiracy to create differences amongst the people and divide the society. A society that cannot bear difference of opinion cannot be called a human society. Human life is precious.

*While strongly condemning the incident JKLF chairman Mohammad Yasin Malik said, Whosever did it could not be the part of human society. It is inhuman brutal act. Qureshi is part of the resistance movement from four decades. He has great contribution in this struggle.*

Malik also visited SKIMS late in evening to inquire about the health of Qureshi.

*Hurriyat (M) leaders Salim Geelani, Shadidul Islam, Muhammad Yousuf Naqash, Manan Bukhari and others have condemned the attack.*

*Meanwhile, several separatist and pro-Indian political parties have condemned the act.*
*
In a tele-statement to a local news agency KNS, a militant group, Al Nasreen has claimed the responsibility of the attack.*

Qureshi was playing important role in dialogue process, said spokesperson of Alnasereen Sheikh Abdul Waheed


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## EjazR

deckingraj said:


> Though i want to make a little controvertial statement...Whenever some innocent civilian is killed by Army(or for that matter Army hand is suspected) Kashmir just boils down...but when such incidents happen life just goes on as normal...



I guess that's because when you protest about police or security forces something gets done, there is an end result and a sense of some justice being done. In the case of militants, what are protests going to do? The overwhelming majority do not want violence but are still targeted.

Anyways, Hurriyat (M) have caled for a full day Bandh on Sunday to protest this and many parties including Geelani's group have condemned the attack

Hurriyat (M) calls Kashmir bandh today in protest of militant attacks

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## SSGPA1

It is sad that another Kashmiri leader is gunned down in IOK, may Allah bless him with life and health.



Halaku Khan said:


> There are many Kashmiri leaders that have been assassinated by Pakistan-based militant groups. Mirwaiz's father was one of them. Sajjad Lone's father was another.



and yet both are much closer to Pakistan and its point of view on Kashmir. May be they understand that it could be the work of RAW with a blame on the mujahideens?

I will be very candid (as usual). Majority of the Kashmiris in the IOK either want to be independent of both India and Pakistan OR they want ot be a part of Pakistan.

India is not in the future picture for Kashmiris so instead of wasting time on forums, I would suggest spend time convincing fellow Indians about facts. Make other Indians realize that Kashmiris don't want to be a part of India and it is only in India's benefit to resolve the Kashmir issue sooner than later.

I know that I might have offended some of you but you should think that an Indian is suggesting you this. That will make it easier for you to think.


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## EjazR

^^^^ You are mistaken if that is what you think is the sentiment of all the people in J&K. Remember Jammu, Ladakh GB are all part of J&K not ust the border districts of Kashmir valley which have sentiment for independence including on the Pakistani side.

Please refer to this post on a recent survey done by an Irish organization on constitutional and other issues for Kashmiri people.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...s-pakistani-designs-kashmir-7.html#post569039

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## EjazR

Hurriyat leader Qureshi stable but critical | TwoCircles.net

Srinagar : Senior separatist Hurriyat Conference leader Fazal Haque Qureshi, who was shot outside his house here by unidentified gunmen Friday, is stable but not out of danger, a relative of his said Saturday.

"His operation was conducted last night which continued till 11.30 p.m. and the doctors said he is stable but critical," Tariq Andrabi, a close relative, told IANS.

Qureshi is in the Intensive Care Unit (ICU) of the Sher-e-Kashmir Medical Institute Soura (SKIMS) under tight security and no one is allowed to meet him except close relatives, Andrabi said.

Doctors had Friday said a bullet has pierced his head.

Qureshi, a senior leader of the moderate Hurriyat group headed by Mirwaiz Umer Farooq, is said to be one of the most vocal supporters of the dialogue process to solve the Kashmir issue.

He was shot and critically wounded outside his Soura house Friday evening when he was leaving for prayers at a mosque. Four men shot him from close range.

The attack on him is seen as an attempt to derail the "quiet dialogue" reportedly going on between the union government and the Kashmiri separatist leaders.


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## afriend

Asim, mirwaziz is the part of a moderate huriyat faction. *I got this info from the main stream media here.* And he was always for talks with india. However there are many hardcore and extrimists seperatists*(but not yet terrorists) * and india knows how to differentiate them as the line is very clear to india.

Yesterday i had seen a interview with an hardcore extrimst seperatist Mr. Yaseen malik, i wonder if he had any role in the attacks. If people like him are leading the seperatists movement in kashmir i dont think that movement can generate much following.. coz he is really a brainless person..!!!!


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## afriend

SSGPA1 said:


> It is sad that another Kashmiri leader is gunned down in IOK, may Allah bless him with life and health.
> 
> 
> 
> and yet both are much closer to Pakistan and its point of view on Kashmir. May be they understand that it could be the work of RAW with a blame on the mujahideens?
> 
> I will be very candid (as usual). Majority of the Kashmiris in the IOK either want to be independent of both India and Pakistan OR they want ot be a part of Pakistan.
> 
> India is not in the future picture for Kashmiris so instead of wasting time on forums, I would suggest spend time convincing fellow Indians about facts. Make other Indians realize that Kashmiris don't want to be a part of India and it is only in India's benefit to resolve the Kashmir issue sooner than later.
> 
> I know that I might have offended some of you but you should think that an Indian is suggesting you this. That will make it easier for you to think.



SSGPA, you have never offended us, as we are very clear on the seperatists movement going on kashmir, and it is really lilmited to kashmir valley but ladakh, jammu regions are overwhelmingly in support of india. So i think you should get a more clearer picture on what is happening here rather than sing in the chorus of distroted facts.


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## SSGPA1

deckingraj said:


> These guys should be more careful about their security especially when there are peace talks going on with Center...We all know these terrorists don't want peace and will do anything to derail it...However such incidents also bring out their true face...Hope our people(Kashmiri's) are watching this...



Because they don't trust your security forces, period. This is the reason we can't blame mujahideens for every single inciddent .. why not RAW or Indian security forces in IOK.



deckingraj said:


> Though i want to make a little controvertial statement...Whenever some innocent civilian is killed by Army(or for that matter Army hand is suspected) Kashmir just boils down...but when such incidents happen life just goes on as normal...



Not contrversial at all my friend ... Kashmiris seeIndia as an occupying force so anybody working with the occupying force is not so important. On the other hand someone protesting against the occupation and then gettting shot and killed for that has far more respect.

Bottom line Kashmiris don't want to be a part of India.


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## SSGPA1

afriend said:


> it is really lilmited to kashmir valley but ladakh, jammu regions are overwhelmingly in support of india.



So you have done a plebiscite in your mind and you think Jammu and Ladakh will go with India, see this is a starting point. 

Now we can talk about the Valley. Why not pull Indian forces out of the Valley altogether. Pull them out to Ladakha and Jammu.


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## Awesome

afriend said:


> Asim, mirwaziz is the part of a moderate huriyat faction. *I got this info from the main stream media here.* And he was always for talks with india. However there are many hardcore and extrimists seperatists*(but not yet terrorists) * and india knows how to differentiate them as the line is very clear to india.
> 
> Yesterday i had seen a interview with an hardcore extrimst seperatist Mr. Yaseen malik, i wonder if he had any role in the attacks. If people like him are leading the seperatists movement in kashmir i dont think that movement can generate much following.. coz he is really a brainless person..!!!!


Yaseen Malik's the only Kashmiri separatist to be known to be non-violent.

NO Kashmiri separatist is an extremists. Your mainstream media can do with a lesson in English, since none of them are fighting for an Islamic state, but are fighting for a very secular state just free from Indian rule.

Just because one wields a gun does not make him an extremist. Self-defence is perfectly a legitimate reason to wield a weapon.

By comparison, Fazal Haq Qureshi was a militant, he has fought and killed scores of Indian soldiers during his jawani days. He turned politician after his retirement and spent some time in jails as well.

Your mainstream media is busy spinning the story any way they can with half truths.


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## EjazR

*15,000 Soldiers Out Of Jammu And Kashmir, Orders Government*

The 39 mountain division posted in the militant infested districts of Rajouri and Poonch have been returned to their base in Himachal Pradesh. The number accounts to nearly 15,000 troops.

The divison had been earlier moved to Jammu and Kashmir for counter insurgency operations in 1994 and was posted in Rajouri and Poonch when the infiltration was on a large scale.

After the &#8216;Operation Parakram in 2001 &#8216; the division was again posted along the Line of Control in Rajouri and Poonch. According to highly placed sources in the Army, the movement had started in August and the complete withdrawal was done by the month of November.

The 39 Mountain Division played a vital role during ' Operation Sarp Vinash', which was launched to eliminate militants hiding in the Hill Kaka mountains of Rajouri in 2003. A large number of terrorists were killed by the security forces during that operation.


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## EjazR

*Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper - No ill will against anybody: Geelani*

Srinagar, Dec 06: In the wake of attack on moderate separatist leader Fazal Haq Qureshi, Hurriyat Conference (G) Sunday said it had no control over any militant outfit operating in Jammu and Kashmir.
"We have no control over any militant outfit. We don't have any ill-will against anybody and cannot even imagine of hurting anyone," Syed Ali Geelani, Chairman of Hurriyat (G) told a rally here at Parimpora.

"We&#8217;re not involved in provocative statements. We only speak the truth," he said apparently referring to the statement of Hurriyat (M), blaming the attack on "irresponsible utterances".
"We even restrict people from making provocative slogans against India," Geelani said.


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## pagans

Srinagar: Hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani on Monday demanded the merger of Jammu and Kashmir with Pakistan, as leaders of the moderate Hurriyat faction spoke about independence and a dialogue over the state.

Addressing a *mammoth gathering *at the tourist reception centre here, Gillani said there was "no solution to the Kashmir issue other than merger with Pakistan".

"We are Pakistanis and Pakistan is us because we are tied with the country through Islam," he roared, as the crowd cheered him and chanted: "Hum Pakistani hain, Pakistan hamara hai" (We are Pakistanis, Pakistan is ours).

Taking a dig at the moderate Hurriyat leaders who shared the stage with him, Gillani said the leadership issue of the Kashmiri separatist movement was "solved today".

"Do you have faith in my leadership? I will be faithful to you till my death and will carry everyone along," he said, as the crowd applauded him shouting in unison "zaroor" (certainly).

Moderate Hurriyat leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq in his speech earlier called for a trilateral dialogue over Jammu and Kashmir, whose ownership is disputed by India and Pakistan.

"We ask India to start a dialogue over Kashmir, open the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad road for trade and release all Kashmiris in Indian jails," he said.

Pro-independence leader Yasin Malik said that Kashmiris want "complete freedom" -- implying from both India and Pakistan.

However, Gillani countered their remarks saying all these issues would be solved once Kashmiris get their right to self-determination and merge with Pakistan.

The two factions of the Hurriyat Conference had been at loggerheads till recently but got united when the Kashmir Valley saw protests against the transfer of government land to the Amarnath shrine management two months ago.

The state government cancelled the order -- provoking protests in Jammu region and triggering an unprecedented communal divide in the state. 

We are Pakistanis, says Kashmiri leader Geelani | Sangh Parivar


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## Red Dwarf

Yeah he and his followers can go to Pakistan. But Kashmir will remain here.

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## Spring Onion

All of them want their land back which is occupied by India.

Simple as that.

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## Hulk

Jana said:


> All of them want their land back which is occupied by India.
> 
> Simple as that.



The king invited us and we laid our lives is history. This man is funded by Pakistan and is just returning the favore.


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## Panditji

Red Dwarf said:


> Yeah he and his followers can go to Pakistan. But Kashmir will remain here.



Followers? What followers?? These are people hired - through megabucks sent through hawala. Old coot Geelani gets every dissenting voice murdered, so no one opposes. And when the heat is turned on him, he, his mentors and minions cry about human rights. 

This guy is so mired in the sin of killing innocents, that I for one cannot imagine his plight on the day of Qayaamat. All for his vanity, as money probably cannot do him any good at this age.


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## Spring Onion

indianrabbit said:


> The king invited us and we laid our lives is history. This man is funded by Pakistan and is just returning the favore.



And thousands of Kashmiris who support him are also funded by Pakistan dahhhhhhhhhhh

And oh Mirwaiz Omar also wants Kashmiri land back, Yasin Malik also wants Kashmir land back which is occupied by India.

The millions of Kashmiris also want their land back so who are funding them???


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## moha199

Sooner or later Kashmir will be part of Pakistan, it's not the question of if it's about when. We have given the Kasmiri people their right, their government is totally seperate in *terms* Why india doesn't do that? *Reason*is that India knows that Kasmiri will abondon India... Now you can make loud noises and cry but this is the reality.... Before you try to even prove me wrong give kashmiri people their Azad government who works under India and see if they wanna be with you guys like we did


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## moha199

Jana said:


> And thousands of Kashmiris who support him are also funded by Pakistan dahhhhhhhhhhh
> 
> And oh Mirwaiz Omar also wants Kashmiri land back, Yasin Malik also wants Kashmir land back which is occupied by India.
> 
> The millions of Kashmiris also want their land back so who are funding them???



No sister Pakistan is funding them lmao


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## pagans

Jana said:


> All of them want their land back which is occupied by India.
> 
> Simple as that.


India had not occupied their land ,we are trying to stop Kashmir joining Pakistan. If you don't know article 370 bans any Indians from migrating to Kashmir.


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## moha199

pagans said:


> India had not occupied their land ,we are trying to stop Kashmir joining Pakistan. If you don't know article 370 bans any Indians from migrating to Kashmir.



You got to be kidding me dude India didn't occupy Kashmir but are trying kashmiri not to join Pakistan ahhahahah If people want to join then let them now you are occupied army as of your own artical 370. What do you call occupation? For heaven's sake you have half a million soilders in Kasmire and you call it not occupied. shame


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## pagans

Panditji said:


> Followers? What followers?? These are people hired - through megabucks sent through hawala. Old coot Geelani gets every dissenting voice murdered, so no one opposes. And when the heat is turned on him, he, his mentors and minions cry about human rights.
> 
> This guy is so mired in the sin of killing innocents, that I for one cannot imagine his plight on the day of Qayaamat. All for his vanity, as money probably cannot do him any good at this age.


Open your eyes,the valley people are Anti -Indian. Pakistan need not give them money to protest against India. They hate India like other Pakistanis. In fact they are Pakistanis.

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## Spring Onion

pagans said:


> India had not occupied their land ,*we are trying to stop Kashmir joining Pakistan.* If you don't know article 370 bans any Indians from migrating to Kashmir.



 you are stopping Kashmiris at gun point from joining Pakistan. In other words Kashmiris want to Join Pakistan and Indians are on

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## Spring Onion

pagans said:


> Open your eyes,the valley people are Anti -Indian. Pakistan need not give them money to protest against India. They hate India like other Pakistanis. In fact they are Pakistanis.



 Pagan they want their land back. They hate India because anyone will hate every other force which is invader or which had invaded their country.


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## pagans

Jana said:


> Pagan they want their land back.



Nobody has taken away their land. Aren't Kashmirs the majority in Kashmir ? Don't they still cultivate their land ? Do any other Indian outside Kashmir has owned even one cent of land in Kashmir ? NO . Then why are you saying that they want the land 'back'. We cannot give their land back because it is already with them !!!!!


Jana said:


> They hate India because anyone will hate every other force which is invader or which had invaded their country.


How can India invade India ?!!!
Kashmir is India ,just like Kerala is India.

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## Spring Onion

pagans said:


> Moreover India can't occupy Kashmir because Kashmir is India.



Bwahhhhhhhhhhh Kashmir was never Part of India.


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## Panditji

Pagans, people of J&K participate in the elections that Hurriyat boycotts. That shows that they will shout for "Azadi" to save themselves from a bullet or social ostracism, but will routinely participate in the democratic processes still in place on the eastern side of the LoC, unlike on the western side. Hurriyat is so sure of its own debacle in polls, that it has consistently avoided participating in elections.

Unfortunately the spineless approach the central government takes ensures that no one opposing the Pakistan funded pro-pakistan political for-hires is safe, hence this mess.

Let there be someone like Jagmohan, who was getting things back on track, or KPS Gill/Julio Ribeiro type IGs with a free hand, and then let us see, how much of this facade of separatism remains. Khalistan was also fueled from Pakistani soil, and it took a heavy toll on Punjab. But things change. They will change in J&K too.

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## Red Dwarf

Jana said:


> Bwahhhhhhhhhhh Kashmir was never Part of India.



Then it was never part of Pakistan too. If Kashmir was a part of Pakistan, then why you have to *invade* it in 1947.


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## pagans

Jana said:


> Bwahhhhhhhhhhh Kashmir was never Part of India.


Even Kerala was never a part of India.

Compared with it Kashmir was always a part of Ashoka's Kaniska's,Ranjit Singh,Dogra, Shahi , Mughal ,British, Modern India.......all subcontinental India based empires.

Kashmir was never ever not a part of India.


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## Hulk

Jana said:


> And thousands of Kashmiris who support him are also funded by Pakistan dahhhhhhhhhhh
> 
> And oh Mirwaiz Omar also wants Kashmiri land back, Yasin Malik also wants Kashmir land back which is occupied by India.
> 
> The millions of Kashmiris also want their land back so who are funding them???



Are you so naive? if all the followers have to be funded then what is point of funding leader. His job is to create anti Indian followers. To clarify I am not saying that there are no Kashmiri who want to be part of Pakistan or Independent. I am saying this man is funded, these are 2 seperate thing.


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## Jumeirah

The Central Government is too lenient with the Kashmiris. They are privileged from the rest of the states with lots of goodies.
The government should change its plans and have a mass settlement into Kashmir by millions of Indians. Millions of people from all kinds of ethnic groups should begin the settlement in Kashmir. If the kashmiris cannot appreciate then the best solution is to change its demographics.

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## Panditji

If at all GoI has to do something on compassionate grounds, it should hang Geelani, as it will make a lot many people safe from this guy's menacing machinations, targeted assassinations and general intimidation on behalf of Pakistan.


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## Materialistic

hahhahhaa. ..nice stories. han, U mean pakistan is funding kashmir, kashmir wanted to be with Pakistan when Pakistan was just an imagination now say that Pakistani government was funding kashmiri's before even our own independence. 
This is not a story of a week or a month, it goes back to 62 the time before the independance of Pakistan, u have 700,000 soldiers there, for what ?? dancing !! are they entertaining kashmiri's they raped around 9000 women and killed hundereds of thousands, u say this is what u do to people u consider as of ur own country, or u mean that Pakistan has got money to fund millions !! 

whatever the story u guys cook, the fact is that all of them want to get rid of Indian occupation and when its about the whole population then no matter if u call them funded, it simply means that THEY want you to move out of their lands. And btw Kashmiri's asked for freedom and showed their will to merge with Pakistan when by the law of British government there was a question placed in front of Indians, who wants merge with Pakistan will go to Pakistan and those who want India will be part of India, and majority muslim areas will go to Pakistan automatically and hindu majority areas will go to India without any question. 

INDIANS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO MIGRATE INTO KASHMIR, i need not to tell you about ur government shifting thousands and thousands of hindu families from decades to change the demography of the area.


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## pagans

Materialistic said:


> INDIANS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO MIGRATE INTO KASHMIR, i need not to tell you about ur government shifting thousands and thousands of hindu families from decades to change the demography of the area.


Nothing like that has happened. But the reverse has happened. Hindus fleeing out of Kashmir.


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## Hulk

This post proves 2 things.
1) Geelani wants to be with Pakistan because his son is in Pakistan.
2) While he shouts that he is Pakistani, he carries Indian passport. (Unlike some of freedom fighters who never change their stand come what may)


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## Jumeirah

Materialistic said:


> hahhahhaa. ..nice stories. han, U mean pakistan is funding kashmir, kashmir wanted to be with Pakistan when Pakistan was just an imagination now say that Pakistani government was funding kashmiri's before even our own independence.
> This is not a story of a week or a month, it goes back to 62 the time before the independance of Pakistan, u have 700,000 soldiers there, for what ?? dancing !! are they entertaining kashmiri's they raped around 9000 women and killed hundereds of thousands, u say this is what u do to people u consider as of ur own country, or u mean that Pakistan has got money to fund millions !!
> 
> whatever the story u guys cook, the fact is that all of them want to get rid of Indian occupation and when its about the whole population then no matter if u call them funded, it simply means that THEY want you to move out of their lands. And btw Kashmiri's asked for freedom and showed their will to merge with Pakistan when by the law of British government there was a question placed in front of Indians, who wants merge with Pakistan will go to Pakistan and those who want India will be part of India, and majority muslim areas will go to Pakistan automatically and hindu majority areas will go to India without any question.
> 
> INDIANS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO MIGRATE INTO KASHMIR, i need not to tell you about ur government shifting thousands and thousands of hindu families from decades to change the demography of the area.



Dude whatever you cook up has no relevance today. History remains History. Kashmir is now INDIA and it will always be. period.

I suggest you concentrate on Pakistan or else the Taliban will occupy and settle in your whole country. We dont want Taliban tomorrow saying that Pakistan is a part of theirs do we?


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## Panditji

Saying Kashmir is not a part of India is similar to saying NWFP/Balochistan are not parts of Pakistan, just on the basis of relative isolation and demographics. Digest that?


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## FlickerSingh

indian govt gave back geelani his passport to go to pakistan. now we must hope he stays in pakistan since he so much wants to be a pakistani. maybe indian govt can give all his supporters their passport to pakistan and send them there so problem can be solved once and for all


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## Windjammer

During the 90s at the height of the struggle in Kashmir, a Western media crew was interviewing Mr. Vajpaeey and questioned him on the failure of the Indian army to control the freedom movement.
In a knee jerk reaction, Mr. Vajpaeey quipped, "If the army fails, we will send in the navy".!!!! Suffice to say, you people need to do your home work before ranting friviously.


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## Jumeirah

The Kashmir issue is a British failure. Where ever the Brits looted they left the place with boder disputes. Kashmir, Guiana, Africa, Abu Musa, Tunb, Lesser (UAE/Iran) to name a few.


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## deckingraj

> Because they don't trust your security forces, period. This is the reason we can't blame mujahideens for every single inciddent .. why not RAW or Indian security forces in IOK.



I have shared my views about why not RAW or Indian Forces...You can go through them if you feel like...As far as they don't trust our security forces is concerned that's just BS....If you would have used your immense knowledge about Kashmir and its politics(the way you are claiming by saying Kashmiri's don't want to be with India) you would have cracked this simple thing that taking help from Indian security Forces will dillute their stand....I mean on what basis will they fight against their cause when they themselves are using Indian forces for their *OWN SECURITY*...That's why i said i can understand they not taking help from our security but they can hire some private security personnels...




> Not contrversial at all my friend ... Kashmiris see India as an occupying force so anybody working with the occupying force is not so important. On the other hand someone protesting against the occupation and then gettting shot and killed for that has far more respect.



Really??? Its easy to send those advices across the border from a safe room on internet....If you really believe in this than why don't you come and help your brother's against the occupying forces?? Those who are dying ask their relatives what are their stands on this....Anyways its off topic but just for the record the same Kashmir who you are claiming sees India as an occupying force voted in the elections with a percentage of 65&#37; much more than what same indians do in financial capital mumbai or for that matter our capital delhi....


> Bottom line Kashmiris don't want to be a part of India.


Thats your opinion and you are entitled for it...As far as the current topic is concerned watch my next post...

Regards


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## deckingraj

*We can&#8217;t imagine of hurting anyone: Geelani*

In the wake of attack on moderate separatist leader Fazal Haq Qureshi, the hardline Hurriyat Conference today said *it had no control over any militant outfit operating in Jammu and Kashmir.*

*&#8220;We have no control over any militant outfit. We don&#8217;t have any ill-will against anybody and cannot even imagine of hurting anyone,&#8221;* Syed Ali Geelani, chairman of the hardline faction of the Hurriyat Conference, told a rally here.

&#8220;We are not involved in provocative statements. We only speak the truth,&#8221; he said apparently referring to the statement of the moderate Hurriyat Conference, led by Mirwaiz Umer Farooq, *blaming the attack on &#8220;irresponsible utterances&#8220;.*

*&#8220;We even restrict people from making provocative slogans against India,&#8221; Mr. Geelani said.*

However, the Hurriyat hawk said *&#8220;if somebody gets angry over the policy of those ready to hold talks with New Delhi, what can we do?&#8221;*

Mr. Qureshi, a moderate face of the separatists, was shot at by militants of Al-Nasreen outfit outside a mosque here on Friday evening in what is seen as an attempt to sabotage the talks.

*The Al-Nasreen is believed to be a front of Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba. *


The Hindu : News / National : We can&rsquo;t imagine of hurting anyone: Geelani


********************************************************************************************************************

Now when hurriyat leaders themselves are not blaiming Indian forces or RAW for this unfortunate incident i just fail to understand why my Pakistani friends here are hell bent on forming a relation...A guy was shot who if media reports are found to be true was a pinnacle in the current silent diplomacy that new delhi is pursuing...thus making it counter-productive for GOI-RAW to kill him....A terrrorist Organization claiming the reponsibility....HUrriyat leaders themselves pointing towards Millitants...Aren't these things enough???

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## deckingraj

Finally some good news in this regard...

**************************************************************
*
Qureshi&#8217;s condition improving*

Fazal Haque Qureshi, one of the seven executive members of the Hurriyat Conference (Moderate), *was on Monday taken off the ventilator as his condition improved.*

Mr. Qureshi, chairman of the People&#8217;s Political Front and former Al-Fateh member, was attacked by unidentified assailants on Friday outside his house on outskirts of the city.

*&#8220;He was taken off the ventilator this morning [Monday] as he showed slight improvement,&#8221;* medical superintendent at the Sher-e-Kashmir Medical Institute of Sciences Syed Amin Tabish said. 

The Hindu : States / Other States : Qureshi&rsquo;s condition improving


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## Novice09

Asim Aquil said:


> Actually it depends if you're Indian or Kashmiri...



No, it depends if you are Indian or Pakistani


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## EjazR

*BBC News - Kashmir conflict 'unfinished business'*

The Kashmir insurgency - one of the world's longest-running conflicts - began 20 years ago this week. And it was the shockwave from the fall of the Berlin Wall that gave young Kashmiris the confidence to take on the Indian state, the BBC's David Loyn says.

Simmering discontent over this unfinished business left over from the partition of India in 1947 turned into a full-scale insurgency after the kidnap of Rubiya Sayeed, the daughter of the Indian home minister, on 8 December 1989.

She was released a few days later in exchange for five militants held in an Indian jail.

A police crackdown on victory celebrations was the spark that lit the fuse of the conflict.

One of the militants who took up the gun that week, Mukhtar Baba, said that he and his friends had the confidence to take on India because of events in Europe.

"The German people stood up against that man-made Berlin wall, so we thought why don't we, and we started that armed struggle here," he says.

The then chief minister of Indian-administered Kashmir, Farooq Abdullah, says he saw the trouble coming. 

"It was not only the Berlin Wall, I think the main thing was the Russian defeat in Afghanistan. They felt if a power like Russia can be thrown out, why not India," he says.

He addressed a packed public meeting to try to warn Kashmiris of what was to come.

"I told them, 'what you are doing is wrong. It will not lead you to any place other than the destruction of our state; our houses will go; our villages will be blown up; innocent people will die; many of our womenfolk will be raped and murdered'," Mr Abdullah says.

*Differing goals*

Twenty years on, there are no reliable estimates of the number of people killed, but it is generally believed to be upwards of 50,000.

The Kashmiri-based International People's Tribunal on Human Rights has recently called for a thorough investigation of mass graves of bodies buried by Indian security forces.

The Indian government has rejected the findings, but the head of the research group, Khurram Parvez, says that much still has to be revealed. He has estimated that one in 10 people living in the Kashmir valley has been tortured.

From the beginning there were differing goals for those who took up the gun.

*Some wanted Pakistan to take over all of the original state of Kashmir, but most wanted unification of the two wings of the original state in a separate new independent country.*

*Global jihad*

As the insurgency ground on, from the mid-1990s the Indian state faced a new threat. *Among the Kashmiri youths coming across the Line of Control after training on the Pakistani side were battle-hardened Islamist warriors who had come to fight a jihad. They were Arabs, Afghans and Pakistanis.*

I met some in Indian custody in 1994, including the alleged military commander of a new guerrilla group - the Harkat ul-Ansar. His name was Sajjad Afghani - (Sajjad "the Afghan"), and he proved to have a very limited political agenda.

He was fighting not for Pakistani control of Kashmir but for a global jihad.

We did not know it then, but this kind of thinking was about to take centre stage in world politics.

So while the fighting in Indian-administered Kashmir may have been inspired by the end of the Cold War, it provides a direct link with the new conflicts of the 21st Century.

*Big change*

Pakistan's repeated and strong denials that they backed militant training camps were rejected by the incoming administration of US President Bill Clinton in 1993, who demanded that the camps should close, threatening to put Pakistan on the list of "state sponsors of international terrorism".

Conveniently enough, the chaos of the civil war in Afghanistan meant that the camps should be shifted there, and when Osama Bin Laden reappeared in the region in 1996 he was given control of some of this training.

*Retired Gen Afsar Karim, one of India's leading defence analysts, says that this development was the most threatening aspect of the Kashmir conflict.

"It is not a battle between Kashmiri independence and India, but between the secular forces of India and the fundamentalist forces which are wanting to get hold of the Kashmir valley."*

The war has seen a big change in Kashmiri society. There is a new seriousness of intent in Islamic practice here in a place once famous for more tolerant liberal ways.

A women's movement, the Dukhtaran-e-Millat (Daughters of the Faith), holds classes to try to change the ways of Kashmiri women to a more rigorous lifestyle including covering every part of their body.

Their fundamentalist world view includes a demand for Pakistan to control all of Kashmir. They also believe that 9/11 was an attack carried out by America on itself.

One of their leading members Naheeda Nasreem, dressed all in black, including black gloves, says: "Is there any proof it was done by any Muslim? We think it might have been done by them. The Taliban and other forces are working at the behest of America and Israel. Why are the Taliban terrorising Pakistan? This is only on at the behest of America. They sent some people dressed as Muslims."

*'Sky's limit'*

*Most of the original militant groups have turned away from violence. *They are waiting for the result of a peace process that has been called "quiet diplomacy" backed by US President Barack Obama.

Both Pakistan and India now appear ready to compromise. *On a recent trip to Srinagar, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh told a secessionist politician that - apart from the border itself - anything could be negotiated.*

"The sky's the limit," he said.

There is some impatience for progress, and the Chairman of the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front, Yasin Malik, warns that if there is no progress, then it will be hard to stop young Kashmiris from returning to violence.

He has tried to lead a path of non-violent resistance, but knows of the impatience of Kashmiris for a settlement.

"For God's sake, don't give our next generation a sense of defeat. If you are giving them a sense of defeat you are pushing them for another revolution," Yasin Malik says.


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## SSGPA1

SRINAGAR: The authorities in Indian-administered Kashmir placed a number of top separatists under house arrest Thursday in a bid to derail planned protest rallies marking World Human Rights Day.

We have placed some separatist leaders under house arrest to prevent any law and order problem, a senior police officer told AFP.

*Among those confined to their homes were the moderate separatist leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and his two senior colleagues Shabir Shah and Naeem Khan*.

They had planned to hold a rally in Srinagar to protest against alleged human rights violations by Indian troops in the Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley.

*We are not even being allowed to carry out peaceful protests, Farooq said.*

The presence of Indian soldiers in Kashmir has long been a major source of tension in the region where a 20-year insurgency against Indian rule has claimed at least 47,000 lives.

Human rights groups put the toll at 70,000 dead and missing.

The scenic region is divided between India and Pakistan, but claimed by both.

---------- Post added at 09:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 AM ----------

Thanks and keep doing that. It helps the Kashmiri cause.


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## sadiqams

The naxialites will tare your article 370 to shreds. You have your army in the wrong state you need it in the seven sisters, and your eastern states where you are turning a blind eye ti events taking place sooner or later you will need your troop in these other 'affected' areas and you will then beg Pakistan not to invade kashmir while you sort out your other insurgencies but you will then find many kashmirs in your heartlands. You cant stop a region or state succeeding just because you have an article in your constitution that forbids it if the people want out they will find a way out.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Jumeirah said:


> The Kashmir issue is a British failure. Where ever the Brits looted they left the place with boder disputes. Kashmir, Guiana, Africa, Abu Musa, Tunb, Lesser (UAE/Iran) to name a few.



No, it is an Indo-Pak failure. 

Both parties to the dispute, India and Pakistan, and the international community after all agreed on the principle of resolving the dispute - a plebiscite held under the UN to allow the Kashmiris to choose between the two nations.

It was nitpicking over trivial issues and the lack of political will (and a hard-line Indian position and set of opinions that sees kashmiris choosing Pakistan in such a plebiscite) that has not allowed for that solution to be implemented.

The British have no blame in India and Pakistan not coming to an agreement on holding a plebiscite in J&K.

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## Windjammer

makikirkiri said:


> If you could kindly provide the links to the articles you are talking about, I could educate my poor self of the spread of naxals to "23" out of 28 indian states.
> 
> Oh my!you don't need to be so hasty.may be you could enlighten me by giving references.



If you are that keen, then why not prove your worth, there are only about four Sundays in a month, you will perhaps need to dig for no more than say 40 Sunday Telegraphs.
It's a small effort considering you need both educating and enlightening.


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## SSGPA1

_*Both Pakistan and India now appear ready to compromise. On a recent trip to Srinagar, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh told a secessionist politician that - apart from the border itself - anything could be negotiated.*_

There are three different stake holders - Kashmiris, Pakistan and India

Borders will have to change (don't know to what extent) but this change will need to take place.

Indian PM should prepare everyday Indians about the change instead of trying to negotiate with the Kashmiris.

40 people get killed in AP and a new state is formed. 50,000 plus Kashmiris have been killed by the Indian authorities and yet no solution to the Kashmir issue.

40 people get killed in AP and a new state is formed. 5000 plus??? Muslims are killed in Babri Masjid riots and the Indian Parliament can't even book a case against Advani

40 people get killed in AP and a new state is formed. Thousands of Muslims killed in Gujrat but Modi is still the CM.

These are facts which Indians should realize so that they can understand the reason behind Kashmir issue.


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## Hulk

SSGPA1 said:


> _*Both Pakistan and India now appear ready to compromise. On a recent trip to Srinagar, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh told a secessionist politician that - apart from the border itself - anything could be negotiated.*_
> 
> There are three different stake holders - Kashmiris, Pakistan and India
> 
> Borders will have to change (don't know to what extent) but this change will need to take place.
> 
> Indian PM should prepare everyday Indians about the change instead of trying to negotiate with the Kashmiris.
> 
> 40 people get killed in AP and a new state is formed. 50,000 plus Kashmiris have been killed by the Indian authorities and yet no solution to the Kashmir issue.
> 
> 40 people get killed in AP and a new state is formed. 5000 plus??? Muslims are killed in Babri Masjid riots and the Indian Parliament can't even book a case against Advani
> 
> 40 people get killed in AP and a new state is formed. Thousands of Muslims killed in Gujrat but Modi is still the CM.
> 
> These are facts which Indians should realize so that they can understand the reason behind Kashmir issue.



Dude I am for Kashmir settlement, but mark my words the LOC will never change. Anyone who tries to do that we face stiff resistance from within India and hence this will never happen.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

indianrabbit said:


> Dude I am for Kashmir settlement, but mark my words the LOC will never change. Anyone who tries to do that we face stiff resistance from within India and hence this will never happen.



Then how can you be in favor of 'settlement' of the dispute? If the status quo was the settlement then we would not be arguing over it still.

If Indian attitudes are standing in the way of a settlement then Indians need to change their attitudes.

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## Hulk

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Then how can you be in favor of 'settlement' of the dispute? If the status quo was the settlement then we would not be arguing over it still.
> 
> If Indian attitudes are standing in the way of a settlement then Indians need to change their attitudes.



AM you are missing my point, their is my POV and their is GOI's POV you are mixing the two. I favor settlement, but in reality people will not allow to change border.

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## skeptic9

Well, actually this 'unfinished business' is a Pakistani POV. Pakistan has always insisted that Kashmir is the core of Indo-Pak conflict....but surprisingly in the Shimla agreement Pakistan didn't bring up the Kashmir issue at all. If Kashmir was _*the* core issue_ then how come you ended the war even without bringing it up?!!!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

skeptic9 said:


> Well, actually this 'unfinished business' is a Pakistani POV. Pakistan has always insisted that Kashmir is the core of Indo-Pak conflict....but surprisingly in the Shimla agreement Pakistan didn't bring up the Kashmir issue at all. If Kashmir was _*the* core issue_ then how come you ended the war even without bringing it up?!!!



Simla was undertaken with the blackmail of India holding onto 90,000 POW's ( I could be wrong, but POW's are supposed to be released when hostilities end).

Even so, the Simla agreement calls for adherence to the UN charter (UNSC resolutions) and an end to the conflict and resolution of differences between the two sides. Kashmir therefore quite clearly falls in the ambit of Simla.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

indianrabbit said:


> AM you are missing my point, their is my POV and their is GOI's POV you are mixing the two. I favor settlement, but in reality people will not allow to change border.



Thanks for clarifying.

I don't think that either country really thinks a winner takes all solution should apply - Gilgit-Baltistan, Jammu and Laddakh would likely remain with Pakistan and India respectively, and even on the remaining Kashmir part of the territory various formats for solutions have been suggested, from joint administration of Kashmir valley to district by district referendums etc.

Indians need to conduct this discourse and come to the realization that such a solution, that caters to the Muslim and non-Muslim sentiments of people in the disputed territory is in the interest of all the involved parties.


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## PlanetWarrior

I always favour an independent Kashmir but stubborn Indian and Pakistani nationalism would not let our Kashmiri kin live in peace. Unite Kashmir and throw out the Pakistanis and Indians ** Kashmiri flag** Peace in our time


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## rajeev

I want the issue to be resolved either converting the current LOC into international border or get the whole of Kashmir and just like US/Mexico case, pay some 10b$ to Pakistan to settle the issue.

Yes for the short term, Pakistan might the use the money and try to build up its military. But India can sustain the spending while Pakistan can't. Morever, if Kashmir issue is solved, I think Pak-India friction will be over to a large extent.


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## SSGPA1

skeptic9 said:


> Well, actually this 'unfinished business' is a Pakistani POV. Pakistan has always insisted that Kashmir is the core of Indo-Pak conflict....but surprisingly in the Shimla agreement Pakistan didn't bring up the Kashmir issue at all. If Kashmir was _*the* core issue_ then how come you ended the war even without bringing it up?!!!



No my friend this POV is from BBC written by a Brit. It is not only Pakistan but India have also accepted that Kashmir is the core issue.


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## SSGPA1

rajeev said:


> I want the issue to be resolved either converting the current LOC into international border or get the whole of Kashmir and just like US/Mexico case, pay some 10b$ to Pakistan to settle the issue.
> 
> Yes for the short term, Pakistan might the use the money and try to build up its military. But India can sustain the spending while Pakistan can't. Morever, if Kashmir issue is solved, I think Pak-India friction will be over to a large extent.



Rajeev, we are talking about humans and not only land. Kashmiris are people of great honour and they are not for sale. 

You can wish to have the entire Kashmir but I am sure most Indians realize that it is not going to happen. 

The second part of the realization for Indian masses is to understand that majority of the Kashmiris (either side of the LOC) don't want to do anything with India and it is in INDIA'S BENEFIT TO RESOLVE THE KASHMIR ISSUE.

I hope that you do have some sincere politicians in India who are actually working to propogate this fact.


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## rajeev

SSGPA1 said:


> Rajeev, we are talking about humans and not only land. Kashmiris are people of great honour and they are not for sale.
> 
> You can wish to have the entire Kashmir but I am sure most Indians realize that it is not going to happen.
> 
> The second part of the realization for Indian masses is to understand that majority of the Kashmiris (either side of the LOC) don't want to do anything with India and it is in INDIA'S BENEFIT TO RESOLVE THE KASHMIR ISSUE.
> 
> I hope that you do have some sincere politicians in India who are actually working to propogate this fact.



1. I dont believe in propogonda. Kashmir belongs to India. Those who are not interested to live in India can leave India, India is not holding any one hostage.

2. Just like there are *Pakistani jihadis* fighting the cause does not mean Kashmiris are not interested to be with India. Remember, even Hurriyat is negotiating with India accepting the soverignity of India.

3. Geo-politics decide the matter. India's hand has more cards than Pakistani's. This vunerable moment for Pakistanis gives India huge advantage.

4. India has grown way powerful than Pakistan and it is highly unlikely that Pakistan can match India in either technology advancement or in raw quantity.

5. Even Musharaff was saying that he was willing to make current LOC permanent.

6. Unfortunately for Pakistanis, all the suicide bombers have tarnished the image of Pakistan so much that even China is not supporting Pakistani cause in any international arena.


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## grey boy 2

*Protests mark rights day in India-controlled Kashmir - People's Daily Online*

December 11, 2009 

*Separatists and rights activists in India-controlled Kashmir staged protests and rallies Thursday to mark the World Human Rights Day.* 

Authorities had placed the top separatist leaders under house arrest to prevent the mass rallies.

*However, small groups managed to reach Srinagar city center, the summer capital of India-controlled Kashmir, shouting slogans, carrying banners and placards to protest the alleged human rights violations in the region. The activists were arrested by police soon after they tried to assemble. *

*"We had to place some separatist leaders under house arrest to prevent law and order problems in the city," said a police official, not authorized to speak to media.* 

Separatists had planned to stage a rally in Srinagar city to highlight the rights violations in the region. 

*"Separatist leaders including Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Shabir Shah,Nayeem Khan and others have been placed under house arrest. The ones who managed to reach here were arrested. Now we are not even allowed to protest peacefully," said an activist. *

Meanwhile, a pro-Indian politician and an independent legislator in the region, Sheikh Abdul Rashid, Thursday filed 24 complaints of rights abuses with the region's Human Rights Commission. 

*Rashid's complaints include probe into the killings, forced labor, torture, enforced disappearance that took place in his constituency. *

Pressing for the justice to the victims, Rashid also sought compensation and punishment to the guilty in lieu of the excesses meted out to the people of his constituency. 

*"We demand compensation for the forced labor, punishment to the accused and seek an apology from the government of India," Rashid told media after filing the complaints.* 

In the evening the pro-independence separatist and chairman of Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front, Mohammed Yasin Malik held a torch rally in the city. 

*Malik questioned the heavy presence of Indian troopers in the region and alleged that New Delhi was using the special powers act to control the people in the region.* 

"What is the fun of keeping such a huge number of troopers here when local police officials and army higher-ups maintain that number of militants is less than 500 militants in the region," Malik said. 

The Shopian Township, 50 km south of Srinagar, observed a complete shutdown Thursday to coincide their protest with the world rights day. The residents are seeking identification of culprits in the May 30 alleged rape and murder of two women of the town. 

The entire region particularly Muslim dominated areas witnessed massive protests over the issue. 

The International Human Rights Day marks the anniversary of the UN General Assembly's adoption of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1948 and pledge of its signatories, including India, to protect human rights. 

The Indian army and paramilitary troopers stationed in the region are engaged in a guerrilla war with the militants since 1989. 

*Officials say more than 47,000 people have been killed in the region during the past two decades. However, the rights groups and non-governmental organizations put the death toll at more than twice the official figure.*

Source:Xinhua

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## rajeev

AliFarooq said:


> Your not comparing china and india here stop trying to flame and degrade. Stay on topic or don't post at all.



This topic was posted already and discussed 8 hours before. So before posting one should just check - I think that helps!


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## AliFarooq

rajeev said:


> This topic was posted already and discussed 8 hours before. So before posting one should just check - I think that helps!



Still dosen't explain the posting links that have nothing to do with the thread.


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## grey boy 2

Why shoot the messenger ? do you think if i don't post it, no one will

know about it ? The reality is, its news all over the world.

But I won't blame you, since 69&#37; of you guys suffering nightmare 

from childhood, this probably result from the long term damage being

done, Goodluck pal.


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## Halaku Khan

*Kashmirs Desperate GASP For Peace*
Tehelka - India's Independent Weekly News Magazine

_If Delhi doesnt act fast, none will be left at the negotiation table_


PREM SHANKAR JHA 
Senior Journalist

FAZAL QURESHI is the latest of a long list of Kashmiri leaders who have been ruthlessly gunned down because they have dared to aspire to a peace with honour for the Kashmiris. He is also among the noblest of them. As he battles for his life in hospital the names and faces of some of his predecessors flit through my mind: Mirwaiz Maulvi Mohammad Farouq, gunned down on May 21, 1990; HN Wanchoo, the dauntless campaigner for human rights killed on December 5, 1992; Dr Abdul Ahad Guru, the eminent cardiologist, killed on March 31, 1993; Qazi Nissar assassinated on June 20, 1994; Abdul Ghani Lone on May 21 2002: Abdul Majid Dar shot dead on March 23, 2003; Mirwaiz Umar Farouqs uncle Maulvi Mushtaq on May 29, 2004; the brother of Professor Abdul Ghani Butt, and now the dastardly attempt to kill Fazal Qureshi. Others, such as Butt himself and Shahid-ul-Islam, spokesman of Mirwaizs Awami Action Front, have narrowly escaped assassins grenades and bullets.


Future tense? (Right to left) Umar Farooq, Moulvi Abbas Ansari and Fazal Qureshi during a meeting in Srinagar in 2005

While some doubts still linger over the motives for the earlier killings, there are absolutely none about what has triggered the recent spate of assassinations. Each and every one has been designed to prevent Kashmiri nationalists from arriving at a peace settlement with New Delhi. Lone was killed because he had the courage, while still in Islamabad attending the marriage of his son Sajjad, to welcome Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayees ceasefire offer of December 2000, and later urged the Hurriyat to fight the 2002 elections. The controllers who planned his assassination chose the 12th anniversary of Mirwaiz Maulvi Farouqs death as a double-barreled warning to the Hurriyat to stay away from the 2002 elections.

The killing of Abdul Ghani Butts brother was intended to send him a similar message when he was the chairman of the Hurriyat council. Mirwaiz Umar Farouq lost his uncle because he ignored frenzied warnings from Muzaffarabad not to meet Deputy Prime Minister Advani for a second round of talks in 2004. He was rewarded for his temerity with the death of his uncle, the torching of his more than a century old school  the first for Muslim children in the valley  and a grenade attack on his home.

Fazal Qureshi, one of the gentlest of men, is battling for his life even as I write because he, too, had the temerity to come out unambiguously in favour of peace. At a conference in Srinagar on October 11, he laid out a blueprint for a resolution of the Kashmir dispute that endorsed the Manmohan Musharraf framework for settlement. Qureshi pointed out that there were only minor differences between the rival proposals for autonomy, self-rule and azadi that were being put forward by the various political parties in the state, and that, collectively, these reflected the will of the people of Kashmir. The main difference between Hurriyat and the mainstream parties was that the former wanted Delhi to hold trilateral talks with both Kashmiri leaders and Islamabad as it did not believe that there could be lasting peace in Kashmir without Pakistans acquiescence. He made it clear that while he was speaking on behalf of the Hurriyat conference, these were also his personal views. It now seems that by doing so, he turned himself into a target.

Who planned this dastardly attack? If the past is a yardstick, then the ISI has to be the prime suspect. For, with possibly one exception, all of the assassinations listed above were carried out by organisations that enjoyed its patronage. What is more, these have been only the visible tip of the empire of fear that it has created in Kashmir. To cite a few examples of which I have personal knowledge, days before Musharrafs foreign minister, Mian Mahmud Kasuri visited New Delhi in August 2004, one senior member of Geelanis branch of the Hurriyat told a Pakistan High Commission official that you can relay what I am going to tell you to the ISI and sign my death warrant, but I would urge you not to do so and to convey to the foreign minister that the Kashmiris want both your countries to arrive at a compromise solution that will allow them to live in peace.

When Kasuri was followed by Pakistans Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz in January 2005, the Hurriyat leadership came down to Delhi to meet him but made no attempt to meet Dr Manmohan Singh. When they were warned that not requesting an appointment would be an insult to the Indian state and that Dr Singh, who had already met them three years earlier when he was the leader of the opposition in the Rajya Sabha, had set aside time for them, they confessed that they did not dare to do so because they had received explicit death threats from the other side.

However, so much has changed in Pakistan in the past year that conclusions drawn from its past behaviour could be entirely wrong. Since March, the Pakistan army has been in an all-out battle against the Taliban in the tribal agencies. The death toll in this war, of civilians and combatants, has climbed to nearly four hundred a week and the frequency of terrorist bombings is approaching Iraq at its worst. Pakistan has so far committed 2,50,000 soldiers to the war so far and is likely to commit another 80 to 1,00,000 in the coming months. This would constitute almost half of its total active and reserve strength. The last thing it wants or needs is renewed tension with India. The Pakistan foreign minister, Shah Mahmud Qureishi said as much in London on December 4: We are facing a challenge but we cannot face it alone. We need a regional approach. India is an important regional player and it has to act responsibly. This may be why there has not been a single terrorist attack in India after 26/11, making the past 13 months the longest terror-free period that India has known since 2002.

What is beyond doubt is that there are hundreds of militants of every persuasion who have a compelling need to keep the insurgency alive because it has become their livelihoods as well as their lives. The ones who will be most affected are the jihadis gathered in Muzaffarabad under the aegis of the United Jihad Council. Indeed, the attack on Fazal Qureshi has their stamp all over it. Whether they have been helped or encouraged by elements within Pakistans ISI is anyones guess.

In the end, it does not really matter who was responsible for the attack on Qureshi. The real reason why every Kashmiri leader who has had the courage to discuss peace with New Delhi has been cut down is the chronic indecision of Indias leaders and their inordinate fear of an imagined Hindu and nationalist backlash if they make any concession to the separatists. It should have been obvious to the Home Ministry that the Kashmiri separatists could be persuaded to accept a settlement within the four corners of the constitution the moment they turned away from violence in 1995, for there can be no negotiated settlement of a dispute without a compromise. But government after government in Delhi has held talks with militant leaders and then done nothing. By doing this, they have discredited these leaders and exposed them to the charge of having sold out to India.

Over years of fruitless talks, a chronically disaffected Kashmiri urban intelligentsia has turned the manufacture of accusations of betrayal into a cottage industry. Lone was killed after months of incessant propaganda  that he was a turncoat who had sold out to the Indians  by Ali Shah Geelani from every mosque in the Valley. Geelani has been spearheading the same kind of attack on the Mirwaizs Hurriyat ever since it became known that it was engaged in quiet negotiations with the Home Ministry. And Srinagar had hosted no fewer than five seminars denouncing Hurrriyat and the peace talks in the weeks before Fazal was shot.

It is time for New Delhi to acknowledge that its hands are not clean, and to bring negotiations to a conclusion before there is no one left to negotiate with.

WRITERS EMAIL
premjha@airtelmail.in

From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 6, Issue 50, Dated December 19, 2009


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## deckingraj

> It is time for New Delhi to acknowledge that its hands are not clean, and to bring negotiations to a conclusion before there is no one left to negotiate with.



I think this sum's it all...I really don't care what the role of Pakistan is in all this mess...We are adversaries and they will try whatever they can...However when we say Kashmir is our integral part then what the heck is GOI waiting for in solving the issue??? If i am not wrong i have never heard Kashmir as an election issue all these years...which implies there are no vote banks that GOI will loose...secondly i don't think Indians would mind if GOI shows a more soft stature with Hurriyat(i can understand people reaction if they show more softness with PAK) about Kashmir which is currently under GOI control...Once that is solved we can talk to the PAK about P-O-K


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## Halaku Khan

deckingraj said:


> I think this sum's it all...I really don't care what the role of Pakistan is in all this mess...We are adversaries and they will try whatever they can...However when we say Kashmir is our integral part then what the heck is GOI waiting for in solving the issue??? If i am not wrong i have never heard Kashmir as an election issue all these years...which implies there are no vote banks that GOI will loose...secondly i don't think Indians would mind if GOI shows a more soft stature with Hurriyat(i can understand people reaction if they show more softness with PAK) about Kashmir which is currently under GOI control...Once that is solved we can talk to the PAK about P-O-K



There is no proof regarding how much support the Hurriyat. IMHO they can get maybe 30% of the votes in the Valley (and the % will be lower if you consider the state as a whole). They should contest elections and establish their credibility. 

If GoI gives in to blackmail from an entity whose credibility is not established then that can become an election issue.


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## syedtalha

Prem shankar jha... that INDIA TODAY guy... i'd suggest deleting this article... extremely biased.. i'm a kashmiri myself & i'm telling you all he says is a peice of bullshit..


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## DavyJones

syedtalha - last i checked Srinagar was in India and not in Kashmir. Btw the article was very informative. Moderate leaders are being attacked in Kashmir and no one raises their voice against militant goons who do these heinous acts. If this was an army operation the streets would have erupted in protest. Hypocrites!


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## deckingraj

> There is no proof regarding how much support the Hurriyat. IMHO they can get maybe 30&#37; of the votes in the Valley (and the % will be lower if you consider the state as a whole).



Omar Abduallah once on a NDTV talk show(against Barkha Dutt) very candidly said that there were more people in a rally called by Separatists than the number of people who came to listen to me and my father....Anyways you are absolutely right that there is no proof...As far as the valley is concerned even if we go by 30% then its a huge number of people that we are talking about.....How many fought for Tilangana??? Anyways that's not the point i am making...The point i am making is that we need to sove the problem on our side and ensure that talks with Hurriyat reaches it logical conclusion....


> They should contest elections and establish their credibility.


Then i am afraid you haven't understood their demands..fighting elections undermines their case....However there is a welcome change...Sajjad Lone did that and lost against National Conference...This kind of gives us an inclination of the mood in the valley...However there are still enough people who support Hurriyat there by making it imperative for GOI to reach some sort of consensus with them...I think More Autonomy for Kashmir is a reasonable resolution that can be sell across...

Indian Election 2009: Sajjad Lone for polls




> If GoI gives in to blackmail from an entity whose credibility is not established then that can become an election issue.



I disagree....Half of india do not care about what's going in Kashmir...Other half is too tired off this issue causing so much civilian/security personnel losses that they will accept any resolution with both hands as far as GOI ensures there it do not compromise even on single inch of boundary....what you think???


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## deckingraj

> If this was an army operation the streets would have erupted in protest. *Hypocrites!*


well there are two aspects to it..First mine and the second one i learnt in the forum(through some member)

- You got to understand the mood there....There is so much anger against armed forces which is exploited very well by propagandist....However GOI has awaken and thanks to the lull in militancy is slimming the presence of Defence Forces...

The one that i learnt

- Defence forces/GOI is an entity against which you can demonstrate and achieve some tangible result...Terrorist are represented by none and thus whom are you going to protests against???


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## DavyJones

@deckingraj-
The issue of Kashmir can only be resolved within the India constitution - unfortunately Article 377 has led to a lack of integration of Kashmir with RoI. We need to scrap this Article-move more people who work and don't protest into Kashmir. Maybe not the way China has done in Tibet but close.


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## deckingraj

> @deckingraj-
> The issue of Kashmir can only be resolved within the India constitution - unfortunately Article 377 has led to a lack of integration of Kashmir with RoI. We need to scrap this Article-move more people who work and don't protest into Kashmir. Maybe not the way China has done in Tibet but close.



well i respect your POV however with all due respect differ from you....You cannot force people against their wishes...You can only convince them by talking to them and yes within the Indian Constitution......Now when it comes to Kashmir the problem is super complex...There is Pakistan - China - Some but significant section of Kashmiris'and GOI...thus by simply saying that scrap Article 377 and stop their protests, give exta benefits to people who are pro-india(in other words discriminate)is not going to help....This will alienate more people and they will again take up arms again(remember some of these hurriyat leaders were once Hard core terrorists)....In the end i would say complex situation which are as complex as kashmir is needs out of the box solutions...


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## Halaku Khan

deckingraj said:


> Omar Abduallah once on a NDTV talk show(against Barkha Dutt) very candidly said that there were more people in a rally called by Separatists than the number of people who came to listen to me and my father....Anyways you are absolutely right that there is no proof...As far as the valley is concerned even if we go by 30&#37; then its a huge number of people that we are talking about.....How many fought for Tilangana??? Anyways that's not the point i am making...The point i am making is that we need to sove the problem on our side and ensure that talks with Hurriyat reaches it logical conclusion....



Omar Abdullah has been wrong in the past. He was predicting that the election turnout would be poor, but he was taken aback by the enthusiastic response of the people, defying the violent boycott call of the separatists.

Yes, there are a large number of people who have sometimes come out for emotive rallies, but that doesn't prove anything. 99.9% of the population did not attend those rallies.

Sajjad Lone is the most credible person in the separatist camp. He is the only one who has had the guts to face the people in an election. He definitely has some support, but it was not enough to save his security deposit.




deckingraj said:


> Then i am afraid you haven't understood their demands..fighting elections undermines their case....However there is a welcome change...Sajjad Lone did that and lost against National Conference...This kind of gives us an inclination of the mood in the valley...However there are still enough people who support Hurriyat there by making it imperative for GOI to reach some sort of consensus with them...I think More Autonomy for Kashmir is a reasonable resolution that can be sell across...
> 
> Indian Election 2009: Sajjad Lone for polls



I know that the Hurriyat has a problem with the Indian constitution. But they can contest elections and work within the system to change the constitution. The constitution has been amended many times. Right now they are people whose credibility has not been proven.

The situation in India is not like in "Azad" Kashmir, where parties like JKLF are banned from contesting in elections.



deckingraj said:


> I disagree....Half of india do not care about what's going in Kashmir...Other half is too tired off this issue causing so much civilian/security personnel losses that they will accept any resolution with both hands as far as GOI ensures there it do not compromise even on single inch of boundary....what you think???



I think people definitely care, as was demonstrated by the response at the time of the Kargil war.

There may be some merit in the Musharraf-Manmohan proposals, but it's difficult to say anything until more details come out. In any case, I think that post-Musharraf, the Pakistan Army is against those proposals. 

A basic problem is that the moment the Hurriyat people try to take a more realistic approach to the problem, the Pakistan-based terrorists put a bullet through their skulls:



> *As he battles for his life in hospital the names and faces of some of his predecessors flit through my mind: Mirwaiz Maulvi Mohammad Farouq, gunned down on May 21, 1990; HN Wanchoo, the dauntless campaigner for human rights killed on December 5, 1992; Dr Abdul Ahad Guru, the eminent cardiologist, killed on March 31, 1993; Qazi Nissar assassinated on June 20, 1994; Abdul Ghani Lone on May 21 2002: Abdul Majid Dar shot dead on March 23, 2003; Mirwaiz Umar Farouq&#8217;s uncle Maulvi Mushtaq on May 29, 2004; the brother of Professor Abdul Ghani Butt, and now the dastardly attempt to kill Fazal Qureshi. Others, such as Butt himself and Shahid-ul-Islam, spokesman of Mirwaiz&#8217;s Awami Action Front, have narrowly escaped assassins&#8217; grenades and bullets.*


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## Omar1984

The presence of Indian soldiers in Kashmir has long been a major source of tension in the region


SRINAGAR, India  Sixty people were hurt on Friday as police in Indian Kashmir clashed with demonstrators in the region's summer capital Srinagar, police and doctors said.

Police fired tear gas and live rounds to disperse hundreds of anti-India protesters.

Forty demonstrators and 20 policemen were injured, police and doctors said. Among the injured was a young boy who sustained a bullet wound.

The demonstrations were in support of a strike call by hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Geelani to protest the "illegal occupation of land by the Indian army" in Kashmir.

Geelani led thousands of Kashmiris during one of the biggest demonstrations of the day in downtown Srinagar, witnesses said.

The strike closed down shops, schools and businesses.

The presence of Indian soldiers in Kashmir has long been a major source of tension in the region, where a 20-year insurgency against Indian rule has claimed at least 47,000 lives.

Under both the Indian and the state's own constitution, people from outside Kashmir are barred from owning land in the region. However, there are no restrictions on leasing out land.

India's home minister last week said the government was prepared to withdraw a "significant" number of troops from the restive region.


AFP: 60 hurt at Indian Kashmir demo: officials


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## Omar1984

*Kashmir protesters clash with army* 








Hundreds of protesters have clashed with troops in the Kashmiri city of Srinagar, as they rallied for an end to Indian rule in the region.

At least seven demonstrators and four soldiers were injured in the unrest on Friday, the region's senior police official said.

Protesters, chanting "We want freedom" and "Indian troops leave Kashmir," set fire to a checkpoint and pelted the soldiers with rocks.

Army used tear gas and fired warning shots to disperse the crowds.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani, a separatist leader, had called for a shutdown of shops and other establishments in the town. 

He led thousands of people in a march after Friday prayers, demanding the withdrawal of Indian forces from the India-administrated part of Kashmir.

India and Pakistan have fought two of their three wars over the predominantly Muslim Himalayan region, which is claimed in full by both countries.

India has an estimated 700,000 soldiers in Kashmir to counter groups that have fought Indian rule since 1989.

More than 40,000 people have been killed and over 200,000 displaced in the uprising and subsequent Indian crackdown.


Al Jazeera English - CENTRAL/S. ASIA - Kashmir protesters clash with army


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## Omar1984

Panditji said:


> Saying Kashmir is not a part of India is similar to saying NWFP/Balochistan are not parts of Pakistan, just on the basis of relative isolation and demographics. Digest that?



NWFP and Balochistan are within the INTERNATIONAL BORDERS of PAKISTAN.

Kashmir is divided between Pakistan and India by LINE OF CONTROL, which is NOT international borders. The UN and the entire international community sees Kashmir as a disputed territory neither as part of Pakistan or India but as a DISPUTED TERRITORY. The UN and international community agree that NWFP and Balochistan is part of Pakistan just like Assam is part of India.

This is reality of Kashmir, a disputed territory, surrounded by Line of Control:



By the way, Syed Ali Geelani is right. All Kashmiris are Pakistanis. Allama Iqbal, the national poet of Pakistan and one of the founding fathers of Pakistan movement, was from a Kashmiri family. And former Prime Minister of Pakistan, Nawaz Sharif, and his brother Shahbaz Sharif, who is the current Chief Minister of Punjab province of Pakistan, are both Kashmiris so what Syed Ali Geelani said is correct all Kashmiris are Pakistanis.

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## FreekiN

That map makes China's part of Kashmir look enormous. Anyways it was decided before the partition that Muslim-majority states would become Pakistan and seeing Kashmir is Muslim majority...

Anyways if India does not want to give Kashmir up for Pakistan's demands then how about do it for democracy? Put up a fair vote as the 'worlds largest democracy' should do. But they don't. Why dont they?

Fear.

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## bigmoneymaker

what?? so this news is confirmed then?? i bet the western media will never report this as they are to protect the fragile demoncrazy of india....this is not a scandal already..this is a massacres of indian people by its own armed forces!!! such an unbearable human right violation!!! my wonder is where those western justice figures are gone???!em, double standard and biased for sure...maybe just a mistaken?it seems that the kashmiris people much enjoyed the so called freedom in such largest demoncratic india???.....


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## Awesome

The interesting this is not that Geelani said, its that he said it to a massive crowd, which roared with appreciation .

All Kashmiris are welcome to escape the oppression under the hands of Indian armed forces and take refuge in Pakistan as some Indians have suggested here. That offer is already on the table. However they want to reclaim their land first.


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## EjazR

I think the most important insight is what Gen. (ret.) Karim mentioned
""It is not a battle between Kashmiri independence and India, but between the secular forces of India and the fundamentalist forces which are wanting to get hold of the Kashmir valley.""

And I see this as not just fundamentalist muslims but hindus as well causing problems in J&K region. For example, the BJP governmetn was pushing for a second partion on communal lines where the muslim majority areas of Kashmir and Jammu would be carved out and the valley would be declared and independant country. (A US backed plan) This would have been a great disaster as not only it would bring the harmful affects of a communal partition but the overwhelming majority people across religions including muslims in the valley wanted a secular united J&K. Thankfully, BJP could not go ahead with that plan. Later there was the Amarnath row again where fundamentalist forces on both sides used religion to flare up tensions when it was basicaly an evironmental issue at the beginning. Even now almost every socio-economic issue is given a communal color by fundamentalist forces.

Then you have the continuous threats and attacks on any huriyat leaders who want to have a peaceful resolution and have the best interests of their people. Many are assassinated or their friends and family are killed or threatened. Hence, eventually it is important for eventual peace to root out extremists forces both hindu and muslim as well as marginalize this thinking. And this has to happen across the border in Pakistani Kashmir as well.

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## Omar1984

*Indias human rights record in Occupied Kashmir slammed 
​*
LONDON, Dec 12 (APP)-Indian hegemonic designs towards its neighbouring countries and gross violation of human rights in Kashmir are a grave threat to the regional and global peace.The United Nations and other countries championing the cause of peace and human rights must take concrete steps to preserve the rights of the people.This was stated by President, Tehreek-e-Kashmir UK, Mohammad Ghalib while speaking at a gathering held in Birmingham to observe the World Human Rights Day. 

He said presence of over a half million unaccountable Indian military and paramilitary forces with unbridled powers, unprecedented violation of human rights, indiscriminate killings of non combatant population, large scale arrests and detentions and recently discovered about 3,000 mass graves is slap on the face of United Nations. 

Mr.Ghalib said India is not only trampling the rights of Kashmiri people but also interfering in neighbouring countries including Pakistan with the aim to destabilize them for advancing its expansionist designs. 

If international community and world bodies fail to stop India, a disastrous war could be erupted engulfing the region, Ghalib warned. 

He urged United Nations to fulfil its promise made with the people of Kashmir with regard to their future by implementing its Security Council Resolution passed on sixty years ago. 

Addressing the gathering, Secretary General Tehreek-e-Kashmir UK, Mufti Abdul Majid Nadeem said Muslim around the world are being unfairly targeted and result of this injustice is severe outrage among the Muslims youths. 

He said young people in Kashmir took the guns in their hands when United Nations and other influential countries failed to address their legitimate demand for their right to self determination. 

Chairman, Pakistan Rabita Council UK, Mufti Mohammad Farooq Alvi said Indian war mongering policies could lead to devastating nuclear war in the region. He added that heinous crimes against humanity are being committed in Kashmir where entire population has been put under the worst draconian laws and the occupation forces taking human lives at their will. 

Innocent people are groaning in jails without trials, young people are arrested and killed and women are raped repeatedly. This all is black spot on the face of United Nation and so-called civilized world. 

Senior Vice President Tehreek-e-Kashmir Chaudhry Mohammad Sharif said people of Kashmir are struggling for their democratic right to self determination and they will continue their till this objective is achieved. Vice President UK Islamic Mission, Qari Nazir Mohammad said there will be no peace in the world until oppressed people are treated with justice and fair play. 

Meanwhile, Jammu and Kashmir Liberation League also organised a similar event in the Houses of Parliament where speakers echoed related views. The event was chaired by Lord Nazir Ahmad, the newly elected Chairman of All Parties Kashmir Parliamentary group. 

This function among others was addressed by MP David Lidington, Opposition Conservative Party spokesman on Foreign Affairs, MP Paul Goodman. 

Lord Nazir Ahmad referred to recently discovered mass graves and called for an end to these excesses and improvement in Human Rights situation in Jammu and Kashmir. 

Mr.Lidington was of the opinion that human rights of all human beings particularly the people of Jammu and Kashmir need to be respected. 

Referring to mass graves he called for unhindered access to Human Rights organizations like Human Right Watch, Amnesty International, and International Red Cross. 

He also said that United Kingdom should persuade both India and Pakistan for constructive and positive dialogue. However respect for Kashmiri aspiration was of paramount importance. 

Mr. Goodman referred to International double standards and said that unlike other issues Kashmir was not getting space it deserved on the international radar. 

Prof. Nazir Ahmad Shawl, Executive Director, Justice Foundation Kashmir Centre London, said that discovery of the fresh unmarked graves are testimony that the right to life is continuously threatened by the morass of political venality and opportunism and savagery of the military machine and desire to crush the every form of dissent without the care of human consequences. 

Chaudhary Mohammad Khan, former overseas (MLA) lamented lack of international concern towards human rights situation in occupied Jammu and Kashmir. 

The event organiser Dr. Misfar Hasan talked about the importance of human rights. Mr. Ershad Malik read out the message of Kashmir leader Shabir Ahmad Shah calling International community to give due attention to human rights situation in Jammu Kashmir.


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## Omar1984

*Syed Ali Gilani arrested in H-Kashmir *

Updated at: 1248 PST, Saturday, December 12, 2009







SRINAGAR: The Indian authorities arrested senior Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Gilani and lodged him at Humhama police station.

According to Kashmir media service, Syed Ali Gilani was arrested by Indian troops when he was going to the hospital to enquire about the health of injured Hurriyet activists.

On the other hand, a complete strike was observed marked with anti-India demonstrations for the second consecutive day, today, in Maisuma against injuring a 14-year-old boy and the destruction of property by Indian troops. 

Ali Gilani arrested in H-Kashmir - GEO.tv


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## pagans

It is unsavory truth that Kashmiris love Pakistan and hate India. But India won't leave kashmir. It cannot. It will put a question mark on the survival of rest of the Muslims in India. Call for independence in NE will grew louder..No way...


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## pagans

..........and also Kashmirs hate India not because we had been bad to them,but because of religion. Their hate against India is not justified ,it is evil,inhuman and undemocratic.

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## DavyJones

@bigmoneymaker - there has been no genocide of indian kashmiris - it is all propoganda - please check facts before you speak


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## graphican

Shahadat is the cost of Independence and 90,000 Kashmirees have offered that already. You cannot stop liberation movement by killing more of them. Independence is the fate of Kashmir and it shell be liberated! Inshallah!


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## pagans

graphican said:


> Shahadat is the cost of Independence and 90,000 Kashmirees have offered that already. You cannot stop liberation movement by killing more of them. Independence is the fate of Kashmir and it shell be liberated! Inshallah!



Human beings need freedom to grow . And democracy is the best for it. INDIA is already a democracy which gives Muslims all right for individual growth. There is no reason other than religion for the Kashmirs to hate INDIA. And this cannot be accepted. If you think that more deaths can break Kashmir from INDIA you are mistaken. Kashmir is already independent. Kashmir is historically and culturally INDIAN land and will remain so. 

The earlier Pakistanis give up the Kashmir 'cause' the better for them.


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## TaimiKhan

pagans said:


> Human beings need freedom to grow . And democracy is the best for it. INDIA is already a democracy which gives Muslims all right for individual growth. There is no reason other than religion for the Kashmirs to hate INDIA. And this cannot be accepted. If you think that more deaths can break Kashmir from INDIA you are mistaken. Kashmir is already independent. Kashmir is historically and culturally INDIAN land and will remain so.
> 
> *The earlier Pakistanis give up the Kashmir 'cause' the better for them.*



Or else ???


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## Aslan

pagans said:


> Human beings need freedom to grow . And democracy is the best for it. INDIA is already a democracy which gives Muslims all right for individual growth. There is no reason other than religion for the Kashmirs to hate INDIA. And this cannot be accepted. If you think that more deaths can break Kashmir from INDIA you are mistaken. Kashmir is already independent. Kashmir is historically and culturally INDIAN land and will remain so.
> 
> The earlier Pakistanis give up the Kashmir 'cause' the better for them.




Can you describe for me the historic India I mean the historical lands that were India. Today i was reading something that had been posted here that said that chines and Japanese ethnically belong to India or something in that line. But ain't it a fact that the original people who occupied this area are not even there and were replaced by the Aryans who migrated from somewhere in Europe or Russia.


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## pagans

khalidali said:


> Can you describe for me the historic India I mean the historical lands that were India. Today i was reading something that had been posted here that said that chines and Japanese ethnically belong to India or something in that line. But ain't it a fact that the original people who occupied this area are not even there and were replaced by the Aryans who migrated from somewhere in Europe or Russia.


Historic INDIA = Indian subcontinent


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## pagans

taimikhan said:


> Or else ???


Heard of Karma ?


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## rastor

There is absolutely no way these kashmiris are going to get independence. They join a long list of groups like Tibetans, chechans or maybe even balochis who are facing a larger more powerful authority. China will not leave Tibet.....Russia will not leave chechanya.....India will not leave kashmir. The only way to get them to leave is total war of the scale seen in territorial exchanges in WWII or 1971 war. Pak can't drive India out of Kashmir. China isn't interested in fighting a war for kashmir. And India has the stomach to take on these kashmiris.....

For their own sake they have to find a way to live under whatever constraints they maybe subjected to and seek to improve their lot. For borders are changed by armies not by hartals/demonstrations/bombings.


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## Windjammer

pagans said:


> The earlier Pakistanis give up the Kashmir 'cause' the better for them.



The sooner India settles the Kashmir dispute, the better it can concentrate on the wet dream of becoming a mini power.


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## Halaku Khan

pagans said:


> ..........and also Kashmirs hate India not because we had been bad to them,but because of religion. Their hate against India is not justified ,it is evil,inhuman and undemocratic.



Hello? Who says Kashmiris hate India?



> *MILITANT'S WIFE CANNOT HELP DEEPLY LOVING INDIA*
> 
> Militants wife fights her temptation to vote
> November 23rd, 2008 - 9:07 pm ICT by IANS Tell a Friend -
> 
> Jammu, Nov 23 (IANS) Parveen Akhtar, 22, in Jammu and Kashmirs Rajouri has gone to live with her uncle in an adjoining district to escape persuasion by her relatives and temptation to come out to vote Sunday.Howsoever she wished, Parveen could not venture out to vote and almost relinquished this right after she married a top militant of her area, Abdullah Inqalabi.
> 
> I was very excited at the thought of voting when I was in my teens and was waiting for my time, but now after marrying Abdullah I cannot go against his wishes, she told IANS by phone in a soft Gojri accent.
> 
> *Though I have not told this to my husband, somehow I cannot help deeply loving India, she said.*
> 
> Parveen has temporarily left her home in Dhakri area in Rajouri district to go and live in Mahore in the adjoining Reasi district.
> 
> Parveens relatives (from Gujjar community) were all eagerly waiting to cast their votes as it is going to be a keen contest and every vote is going to count.
> 
> She said: My relatives were telling me to come and vote as Abdullah would not come to know. But I do not want to lie to him, else Allah will punish me.
> 
> Her husband, Abdullah Inqalabi is a Pakistani national from Gujranwala and had come to Rajouri over five years ago. He was operating in the upper reaches of Rajouri area and was then the divisional commander of Hizbul Mujahideens Pir Panjal regiment, a militant outfit active in this area.
> 
> Abdullah now is the top man of the United Jehad Council (UJC) in the area and is coordinating activities of Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM), Al-Badr and Hizbul Mujahideens Pir Panjal regiment.
> 
> Parveen Akhtar belongs to a Muslim Gujjar (nomad) family which has not been swayed by separatist movement and has remained by and large pro-India.
> 
> I knew the danger of marrying a militant but it was Allahs will that I gave my consent, she said. She added she married Abdullah of her own accord when he approached her father Mohammad Bashir.
> 
> Since their marriage over three years ago, both lived together for not more than three months in a staggered way. He comes to meet for a few hours or at times I go at an arranged point to meet him, Parveen said.
> 
> She does not want to go to Pakistan or get citizenship there as she says she is fondly attached to this place.

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## sensenreason

pagans said:


> Human beings need freedom to grow . And democracy is the best for it. INDIA is already a democracy which gives Muslims all right for individual growth. There is no reason other than religion for the Kashmirs to hate INDIA. And this cannot be accepted. If you think that more deaths can break Kashmir from INDIA you are mistaken. Kashmir is already independent. Kashmir is historically and culturally INDIAN land and will remain so.
> 
> The earlier Pakistanis give up the Kashmir 'cause' the better for them.



Somehow all Muslim communities...minority or majority suffer from a persecution complex. If in majority, neighbours are hated, especially if they are Non-Muslims.

Even in China and Russia, Muslim communities are up in arms. US too...Ofcourse, its easy to hate the majority community, if they happen like in Kashmir.


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## EjazR

@pagans

Your level of knowledge of Indian affairs is questionable since recently you wrongly claimed that APJ Kalam was considered "murtid" by muslims. Then how can you know for a fact that Kashmiri muslims "hate" India because of religion?

So let me inform you that you belong to that group that don't want to see or have a misconception of the reality on the ground. The JKLF movement was to establish an independent Secular J&K and even Hindus and Sikhs initially took part in that. This was similar when during Indira's emergency rule and the imposition of Hindi as the only national language saw violent protest and movements against the centre in the south and Gujarat as well as J&K. States that didnt have a Congress(I) governmetn and were dissolved when emergency was declared.

It was only thanks to bigoted muslims coming over from the Afghan Jihad aftermath that gave it a so called "Jihad" color and non-muslim minorities in Kashmir valley as well as pro-India and pro-Independence Kashmiri muslims were targeted.

Some cold hard facts in order. Geelani is the least popular separatist leader who has no appeal except in the border districts. Mirwaiz and Yasin Malik have far far larger popular base. Even their support is in a limited area. PDP and NC are called "mainstream" parties for a reason. Its because they have the largest base of support among the people. 

And if you are saying that GoI hasn't been "bad" to them, which world are you living in. There has been HR abuses there is no doubt about that. And these HR abuses must be looked into and relevant people punished. This is not a "favor" its their right as Indian citizens. The large amount of money that pours into J&K only recently has been shifted towards development instead of corruption among bureaucracy and security forces.

And here is a 2008 opinion survey attached for constitutional future of J&K, the entire report on Kashmir conflict can be found on www.peacepolls.org.



Bottom line if you look at just muslims in Indian Kashmir, 71&#37; said joining Pakistan was unacceptable while only 49% said joining India was unacceptable. If the article 370 was guaranteed to be implemented infull (right now its not implemented in full) then that fell down to 27% opposed. And again this is just muslims. So I guess its about time and start reading some credible news sources and books to update your knowledge of current events. You may want to start with Praveen Swami's "The Kargil War" which provides a summary of blunders committed by GoI on Kashmir across government culminating in the NDA debacle of Kargil.

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## pagans

Windjammer said:


> The sooner India settles the Kashmir dispute, the better it can concentrate on the wet dream of becoming a mini power.


INDIA cannot solve the problem because we did not start it. The ball is in the court of Kashmiri Muslims. They should stop their Hatred for Hindus and India .Then everything will be OK.


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## TaimiKhan

pagans said:


> Heard of Karma ?



Just karma is your answer ???? 

Was expecting something better, anyway you guys carry on the talk.


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## Halaku Khan

EjazR said:


> @pagans
> 
> Your level of knowledge of Indian affairs is questionable ...



He may not be an Indian.


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## pagans

Helllo Halaku Khan,/Ejaz R

Are you a Kashmiri Muslims ? Have you seen the photos/videos pasted by our respected Pakistani members in this forum ?

Kashmiri Muslims come large numbers looking like rivers of human being chanting pro-Pakistan and Anti India slogans. They follow traitor leaders like geelani in drovesIndians should come out from the delusion that Kashmiris love India,they don't. You cannot solve the problem without correctly identifying the problem.

The example that you gave is about a gujjar women. They are a minority in Kashmir. Also most of the shia Muslims are for India . But I am talking about ethnic Kashmiri sunni Muslims. 

For me nationalism come first and foremost. Simply by voting or keeping mum does not make a Kashmiri patriotic. He should show the same passion for India like in the rest of the country. A kashmiri who does not call for the abolition of Article 370 is a traitor to me. Also I don't consider NC and PDP to be patriotic . Especially PDP is a traitor party.


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## graphican

pagans said:


> Human beings need freedom to grow . And democracy is the best for it. INDIA is already a democracy which gives Muslims all right for individual growth. There is no reason other than religion for the Kashmirs to hate INDIA. And this cannot be accepted. If you think that more deaths can break Kashmir from INDIA you are mistaken. Kashmir is already independent. *Kashmir is historically and culturally INDIAN land and will remain so*.
> 
> The earlier Pakistanis give up the Kashmir 'cause' the better for them.



What have you got to defend your argument? Kashmir is staggering Muslim Majority region (97.16% Muslims, source Wikipedia). When Pakistan with 94% Muslim population was formed as Pakistan, why 97.16% Muslim populated territory would not be part of Pakistan? Come up with some reason or accept your are occupying Kashmir by force.


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## DavyJones

@ Windjammer - India is already a power in the world today. We have a good standing in the world today. We are growing at 8% every year with millions of new jobs - improvements in every sector.
Kashmiri youth throwing stones and throwing firebombs at Indian security forces are inciting violent reactions from them. A Peaceful protest is not one where you throw stones at the authorities. And what is anger for ? Has India destroyed Kashmir ? Kashmir is prospering and doing fine - much better than other areas of this world. 
Can you see 20 Indian policemen were injured ?


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## pagans

graphican said:


> What have you got to defend your argument? Kashmir is staggering Muslim Majority region (97.16% Muslims, source Wikipedia). When Pakistan with 94% Muslim population was formed as Pakistan, why 97.16% Muslim populated territory would not be part of Pakistan? Come up with some reason or accept your are occupying Kashmir by force.


So ,Religions(Islam) is your only argument? . Don't the Hindu History of Kashmir matters ?
By your logic all Muslim majority areas in India belongs to Pakistan .


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## pagans

taimikhan said:


> Just karma is your answer ????
> 
> Was expecting something better, anyway you guys carry on the talk.



Terror camps in Pak will affect them only: Pillai


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## Aslan

pagans said:


> So ,Religions(Islam) is your only argument? . Don't the Hindu History of Kashmir matters ?
> By your logic all Muslim majority areas in India belongs to Pakistan .



I asked you a question and you put in a one word answer now if you didn't understand what I was trying to ask please tell me i will put it out again in more detail. Or you are just plain dumb.


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## Halaku Khan

pagans said:


> Kashmiri Muslims come large numbers looking like rivers of human being chanting pro-Pakistan and Anti India slogans. They follow traitor leaders like geelani in droves



So what? 99.9% of the population of the state was not at those rallies.


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## praveen

Windjammer said:


> The sooner India settles the Kashmir dispute, the better it can concentrate on the wet dream of becoming a mini power.



The sooner Pakistan realizes it cannot pursue Kashmir,the faster it will divert from self-destruct mode

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## pagans

EjazR said:


> So let me inform you that you belong to that group that don't want to see or have a misconception of the reality on the ground.


Let's us see who is not facing reality, whether it's me or you.



> The JKLF movement was to establish an independent Secular J&K and even Hindus and Sikhs initially took part in that.


Why should there be an 'independent' and 'secular' J&K when India is already independent and secular. Or where Yasin Malik and his ilk unaware that India got independence in 1947 and was declared a secular country in 1950. You should question Yasin's motive rather than blindly believe him.




> It was only thanks to bigoted muslims coming over from the Afghan Jihad aftermath that gave it a so called "Jihad" color and non-muslim minorities in Kashmir valley as well as pro-India and pro-Independence Kashmiri muslims were targeted.


While it is true that Afghan Jihadis had hand a hand it is equally true that vast number of Kashmiris were supportive of Jihad and is still supportive of Jihad.
See some 'patriotic' actions of Kashmiris..
Nine hurt as protesters, police clash in Srinagar- Hindustan Times



> And if you are saying that GoI hasn't been "bad" to them, which world are you living in. There has been HR abuses there is no doubt about that.


What about abuses ? The big big question is did the Kashmiris started hating India after the abuse...a big NO. India army is there because Kashmiris already had hated India and without the army it was impossible to hold Kashmir. Kashmiris hated India even before Indian army was there. And how do you want the army to handle anti-India people. Do you feel pain if Anti-India people are abused ? I don't believe that terrorist have human rights.



> The large amount of money that pours into J&K only recently has been shifted towards development instead of corruption among bureaucracy and security forces.


This is another problem. India should stop pouring money into Kashmir. No amount pampering,appeasement and sweet talk can make kashmiris love India. India already lost war for peoples mind in Kashmir. Radical problems calls for radical answers.





> Bottom line if you look at just muslims in Indian Kashmir, 71&#37; said joining Pakistan was unacceptable


Aren't amazed ,angered and dejected that 30 % of population of an Indian state voted for our arch enemy. Do you think this 30% is such a small percentage. The problem is grave,totally grave



> while only 49% said joining India was unacceptable.


Only 49%...it's 50% half of the population ! damn it..*As an Indian I am angered at your only 'only 49%' comment. It actually proves my point.*



> If the article 370 was guaranteed to be implemented infull (right now its not implemented in full) then that fell down to 27% opposed.


You want article 370 to be implemented !!!!? It should canceled ASAP. No special rights for KAshmiris. They are just Indians like any other Indians.



> So I guess its about time and start reading some credible news sources and books to update your knowledge of current events.


Actually we are equally informed. The only difference is in our world view and perspective. For you 50% of KAshmiris voting against INDIA is sign of their patriotism and for me your comment 'only 49%' is sign of your lack of patriotism. I regret to say this. I considered you to be a patriotic Indian Muslim who will get enraged at Anti_indian activities . But you were not up to the mark.


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## pagans

khalidali said:


> I asked you a question and you put in a one word answer now if you didn't understand what I was trying to ask please tell me i will put it out again in more detail. Or you are just plain dumb.


Ask your question,friend.


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## EjazR

*@pagans,
*
Have you been to Kashmir and talked to the locals? Some of my neighbors are Kashmiri families(yes sunni muslims) who could afford to move out of Srinagar in the late 80s when things started to go from bad to worse. Did you know that more than 50&#37; of J&K infantry is muslim. More than 65% of J&K police which is at the forefront of fighting militancy is muslims.

Thankfully you don't decide what is nationalism or who is a nationlist because you have a very narrow view. For me the most important aspect for a nation is to take care of its nationals and citizens. Once a nation cares for its nationals, it is natural for them to be patriotic and defend their nation. Just like the valley Kashmiris did in 1948 when they took arms to fight the invading tribals under Sheikh Abdulla even before the Indian army came there. In 65 when a covert operation by Pakistani army was initiated in the valley, the locals (yes sunni muslims) turned their backs and actually helped in cleaning that operation up to the miscalculation of Ayyub Khan. Like when a muslim Shepard informed the army of infiltration while the government failed to protect the country. Not abolition or sustaining article 370.

The situation there has parallels to the Maoists where there was hardly any development and widespread corruption by the ruling government. It was only when there was massive rigging in the elections of 88 that a armed struggle started. Obviously the Pakistani establishment at that time took advantage of the situation that was GoI's own creation. Bring justice and fairness back to J&K not as a favor but because its their right and stop giving every socio-economic issue a communal color just because thats the easy way out.

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## pagans

Halaku Khan said:


> So what? 99.9% of the population of the state was not at those rallies.


Ejaz just provided me with the needed ammo. 30% of Kashmirs voted for Pakistan and 50% voted against India. With this poll the community in Kashmir can be easily branded as traitors.


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## praveen

pagans said:


> Ejaz just provided me with the needed ammo. 30% of Kashmirs voted for Pakistan and 50% voted against India. With this poll the community in Kashmir can be easily branded as traitors.



you seem to be too blinded to see the truth it simply is not in that manner


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## pagans

praveen said:


> you seem to be too blinded to see the truth it simply is not in that manner


Ok tell me the truth. I assert that a substantial and unacceptable level of Kashmiris hate India for no real reason. Can you say that I am wrong.?


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## TaimiKhan

*Hisory of Jammu and Kashmir *

Kashmir was a Muslim majority Princely State before the independence of Pakistan and India. On 25 July 1947, Lord Mountbatten, the last Viceroy of India, advised the rulers of the Princely States to accede either to India or Pakistan *"keeping in mind the geographical situation of their respective States, the composition of their population and the wishes of their people".*

* Why is Jammu Kashmir disputed?*

Kashmir was a Muslim majority Princely State before the independence of Pakistan and India. On 25 July 1947, Lord Mountbatten, the last Viceroy of India, advised the rulers of the Princely States to accede either to India or Pakistan "keeping in mind the geographical situation of their respective States, the composition of their population and the wishes of their people". *It was, in fact, in line with the partition formula whereby all Muslim majority areas of British India were to join Pakistan after 14 August 1947 and the rest were to accede to the erstwhile British Indian Dominion.* Although ruled by a Hindu prince, *Muslims constituted 78 percent of Jammu and Kashmir and 93 percent of the population of the valley.*

*There was a common understanding that Jammu and Kashmir would join Pakistan as in addition to the composition of the population, it was linked to the outside world through Pakistani territory. Pakistan was the source of import of all essential items like petroleum, sugar, salt etc. The Jhelum River was the only source to transport timber for export. However, ignoring the wishes of the people and Kashmir's historical, ethnic, religious, cultural and social relations with Pakistan, the Hindu Raja (Prince) requested for accession to India in return for military aid and a promised referendum. India never fulfilled its promise of plebiscite and the Prince's action was never accepted either by the Kashmiri people or Pakistan.*

*How did Hindu Raja become the ruler of Muslim majority Kashmir?*

*Historically speaking, Kashmir had been ruled by the Muslims* from the 14th century onwards. The Muslim rule continued till early 19th century when the ruler of Punjab conquered Kashmir and gave Jammu to a Dogra Gulab Singh who purchased Kashmir from the British in 1846 for a sum of 7.5 million rupees.

The Raja of Kashmir had initially shown his intention neither to join Pakistan nor India. Subsequently, why did he decide to join India?

*The Raja of Kashmir had signed a standstill agreement with Pakistan in August 1947, which allowed continuation of the services Kashmir was availing under the British rule pending fresh agreement. In the meantime, he strengthened his links with the Indian Government by appointing the Indian Congress nominee Mehr Chand Mahajan as the Prime Minister of the State with the promise that military aid could be made available to him at his discretion.*

In the meantime, the Raja had ordered his Muslim subjects to deposit all the arms they possessed. Next, he ordered the Muslim personnel of his army to be disarmed. *This was followed by a State-supported campaign of RSS- a Hindu fanatic organization- to exterminate the Muslim population of Jammu or to force them to migrate to Pakistan. Commenting on the Raja's reign of terror, the Times of London observed.*

*"237,000 Muslims were systematically exterminated, unless they escaped to Pakistan along the border by the force of the Dogra State headed by the Maharaja in person".* *The Raja's attempt to disarm the Muslim population was resisted in Poonch area and a guerrilla movement developed which grew in strength to nearly 70,000 Poonchis who had served in the British army during the Second World War. The Kashmiri guerrillas responded by attacking Raja's army and their relatives in Pakistan also joined them in the resistance movement.*

*Sheikh Abdullah, a pro-India Kashmiri leader and father of Farooq Abdullah, the puppet Chief Minister of the Indian Occupied Kashmir, confirmed the atrocities of the Raja in his statement on 21 October 1947 (New Delhi) when he said;
"The present troubles in Poonch, were caused by the unwise policy adopted by the 'State. The people of Poonch started a people's movement to redress their grievances."*

*On 24 October 1947, Maharaja appealed to India for military help. On 26 October, Maharaja addressed a formal letter to the Governor General of India seeking military assistance. He also signed the so-called Instrument of Accession sent by the Indian Government as a quid pro quo. But later researchers like Alistair Lamb doubted the veracity of this instrument.*

*Was it an unqualified accession to India?*

On 27 October, while accepting the instrument of accession, Mountbatten the British Governor General of India after independence wrote back:

*"... It is my Government's wish that, as soon as law and order have been restored in Kashmir and her soil cleared of the invader, the question of the State's accession should be settled by a reference to the people."*

*On 30 October 1947, Nehru addressed a telegram to Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan saying:*

*"Our assurance that we shall withdraw our troops from Kashmir as soon as peace and order are restored and leave the decision about the future of the State to the people of the State is not merely a pledge to your Government but also to the people of Kashmir and to the world."
*
*On 2 November 1947, in a Radio Broadcast Prime Minister Nehru repeated pledge to hold plebiscite in J&K "under international auspices like the United Nations. So the accession was conditioned with a promise of plebiscite, which was repeated, by the high-level Indian leaders as well as Indian representatives in the United Nations.*

*However, these promises were never fulfilled.*

*Legal Argument * 

India based its argument on Article II of the Simla Agreement, which says that the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations.
What are the Legal Arguments presented by India?

India based its argument on Article II of the Simla Agreement, which says that the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations.

*However, Para 1 of the Simla Agreement specifically provides that "the principles and purposes of the Charter of the United Nations shall govern the relations between the two countries". Article 2 of the Charter spells "all members ..... shall fulfill in good faith the obligations assumed by them in accordance with the present charter". More specifically Article 103 of the Charter says "in the event of a conflict between the obligations of the members of the UN under the present Charter and their obligations under any other internal agreement, their obligations under the present Charter shall prevail". Many countries have invoked Article 103 whenever their obligations under the Charter conflicted with those under other treaties. The Indian interpretation of the Simla Agreement, therefore, does not diminish the necessity for both Pakistan and India to fulfill their Charter obligations.*

*Furthermore, the Simla Agreement says, "The principles and purposes of the Charter of the United Nations shall govern the relations between the two countries". One of the fundamental provisions of the Charter is "respect for the principle of self-determination of peoples" (Article 1). That can also be interpreted as one of the Charter obligations of states and under Article 103- any contrary provision, therefore, of all other treaties including the Simla Agreement cannot take precedence.*

*Political Argument*

After the nuclearization of South Asia the Kashmir dispute is no more just a bilateral dispute between Pakistan and India. Any dispute between Pakistan and India, no matter how less serious, can provoke a nuclear exchange. This poses a serious threat to international peace and security, and global economic and social stability. The international community has therefore an interest in the settlement of bilateral disputes between Pakistan and Indian in a peaceful manner and in accordance with the provisions of the UN Charter. The interest of the international community has been established by resolution 1172, which urges Pakistan and India to address the root cause of their tensions.

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## TaimiKhan

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/41298-hisory-jammu-kashmir.html#post580340 

A refresher in history for you guys to read carefully.


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## praveen

pagans said:


> Ok tell me the truth. I assert that a substantial and unacceptable level of Kashmiris hate India for no real reason. Can you say that I am wrong.?



simply they don't.The percentage of the Kasmir election turn out shows that.Everything simply isn't communal


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## pagans

EjazR said:


> *@pagans,
> *
> Have you been to Kashmir and talked to the locals?


Have you been ? Anyway the question is moot .You need not go to America to learn about America. I have not been to Kashmir.


> Some of my neighbors are Kashmiri families(yes sunni muslims) who could afford to move out of Srinagar in the late 80s when things started to go from bad to worse.


Where do you live ? Most Kashmiris living in rest of India usually supports India .It's commonsense. You don't generally expect Kashmiri to say they hate India to an Indian while they live in India. And of course there are Kashmiri sunni Muslims who support India, I am not denying that.
50&#37; of Kashmiris supporting India is just a natural thing,because as Indians they are supposed to do it, but the attention should go to the 50% who hate India for no reason.


> Did you know that more than 50% of J&K infantry is muslim. More than 65% of J&K police which is at the forefront of fighting militancy is muslims.


Do you know that the percentage of Muslims in the state is much more than that?. And do you know that the Kashmiri police have done miserable job compared with that of their Punjabi counterparts ?


> Thankfully you don't decide what is nationalism or who is a nationlist because you have a very narrow view.


I don't have a narrow view. Those who want India strong and united are nationalists. Their religion don't matter. 




> It was only when there was massive rigging in the elections of 88 that a armed struggle started.


The rigging was done by shaikh Abdullah,a Kashmiri. Why should Kashmiris start an armed struggle against India for it ? Does India represents Seikh Abdullah's party ?



> Obviously the Pakistani establishment at that time took advantage of the situation that was GoI's own creation.


GOI did not create any situation .You should stop blaming your government for the evils done by Kashmiris. India had not does anything wrong in relation to Kashmir,if anything it is Article 370, the rest is separatist propaganda which gaves them more reasons to attack India. I plead you not to believe it.


> Bring justice and fairness back to J&K not as a favor but because its their right and stop giving every socio-economic issue a communal color just because thats the easy way out.


You should stop accusing your government. India had never stopped justice and fairness to Kashmiris. It's the other way around. The problem is started ,developed and maintained wholly by Kashmiris and India was never ever a part of the problem.


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## Red Dwarf

What they really want ?. India or Pakistan or an independent country.


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## EjazR

pagans said:


> Let's us see who is not facing reality, whether it's me or you.
> 
> 
> Why should there be an 'independent' and 'secular' J&K when India is already independent and secular. Or where Yasin Malik and his ilk unaware that India got independence in 1947 and was declared a secular country in 1950. You should question Yasin's motive rather than blindly believe him.


Because under the Congress governments under Indira and Rajiv Ghandhi India did not give J&K its rights. Elections were rigged, emergency rules were imposed. That is why even the Hindus and sikhs were tired of the then Congress's highhandedness and joined in the struggle. 




pagans said:


> While it is true that Afghan Jihadis had hand a hand it is equally true that vast number of Kashmiris were supportive of Jihad and is still supportive of Jihad.
> See some 'patriotic' actions of Kashmiris..
> Nine hurt as protesters, police clash in Srinagar- Hindustan Times


Ok now it looks like I am starting to waste my time here. Do you know that 65+% of J&K police is muslim. So now even protesting is unpatriotic, so now any place in India where protesters clash with police are people supporting Jihad? The Shiv sena and MNS are right their with you I think.



pagans said:


> What about abuses ? The big big question is did the Kashmiris started hating India after the abuse...a big NO. India army is there because Kashmiris already had hated India and without the army it was impossible to hold Kashmir. Kashmiris hated India even before Indian army was there. And how do you want the army to handle anti-India people. Do you feel pain if Anti-India people are abused ? I don't believe that terrorist have human rights.


Was there an armed conflict before '89? Do you know more muslims have died in by militant attacks that non-muslims? I'm sorry to say your lack of knowledge is quite high.
Do you have any concern for Kashmiri sunni muslims dying in these militant attacks?
http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/38388-militants-kill-bsf-jawan-his-wife-rajouri-jammu.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...lled-kashmir-militants-kashmiri-official.html




pagans said:


> Aren't amazed ,angered and dejected that 30 % of population of an Indian state voted for our arch enemy. Do you think this 30% is such a small percentage. The problem is grave,totally grave
> 
> 
> Only 49%...it's 50% half of the population ! damn it..*As an Indian I am angered at your only 'only 49%' comment. It actually proves my point.*


You claimed Kashmiris love Pakistan more than India. At least be courteous enough to say that you were wrong and more Kashmirs prefer India than Pakistan.

The current GoI has a better handle of the mistakes they made and are making ammends. There is a reason why there is such high voter turnout and why there is such low levels of violence there these days. Its ex-militants and muslims in J&K police that are in the front line of Village Defence committees protecting Kashmiri land from militants. Atleast give credit were credit is due. Again proves my point that its not religion that is the problem. Otherwise ALL muslims would have voted against India. So you were wrong there again.



pagans said:


> You want article 370 to be implemented !!!!? It should canceled ASAP. No special rights for KAshmiris. They are just Indians like any other Indians.


That is your opinion. Let a party declare that this is their agenda and get the mandate of the people. Let them explain what are the disadvantage vs advantage and convince people. So far no one has been able to do so. And IF they win and have the mandate, they can remove it for all states(like Arunachal Pradesh, Manipur and other NE states) that have 370 not just J&K.

Until then your opinion, although important in the sense that it is part of public opinion will remain just that. But again 370 is not the basis of patriotism and making it so is foolish, particularly since its part of the constitution that GoI official and army swears to uphold. Any Indian that goes against the consitution is a traitor and liable for treason charges.



pagans said:


> Actually we are equally informed. The only difference is in our world view and perspective. For you 50% of KAshmiris voting against INDIA is sign of their patriotism and for me your comment 'only 49%' is sign of your lack of patriotism. I regret to say this. I considered you to be a patriotic Indian Muslim who will get enraged at Anti_indian activities . But you were not up to the mark.



You said that Kashmiri muslims prefer Pakistan more than India and proved you wrong and showed that it was the opposite. Do you agree that you were wrong now? And this is not a static opinion, its fluid. This was done in 2008. If the GoI and J&K govt. continues performing like its doing now, the anti-Indian sentiment will go down continually.

Moreover you gave it a communal color by claiming its because of "religion". What about separatists and leaders of ULFA and NE secessionist movements who are hindu and christians? What about the maoists trying to setup a parallel govt. ? In all these cases there was a lack of good and just governance by the GoI and local government. Hostile countries obviously took advantage of this undercurrent as any would to make them more lethal.

Like I said before, the most important aspect of a country is eventually empowering its people. That is patriotism for me. I spend more of time and effort in the social services area, and not in measuring who is upto the mark and wether a person is "patriotic" enough according to them.

And oh yes *I don't need a "certificate" of patriotism from you and neither does any other Indian*.

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## pagans

praveen said:


> simply they don't.The percentage of the Kasmir election turn out shows that.Everything simply isn't communal


They are. The election percentage is not a proof of their love for India. Things are more communal than you think. The whole India -Pakistan division was on communal line. Can you deny that ?


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## Barrett

Red Dwarf said:


> What they really want ?. India or Pakistan or an independent country.



A plebiscite under the already pending U.N resolution will be able to answer all questions.


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## pagans

taimikhan said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/41298-hisory-jammu-kashmir.html#post580340
> 
> A refresher in history for you guys to read carefully.


Have you read Kalhana's Rajatharangini ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajatarangini


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## EjazR

pagans said:


> Ejaz just provided me with the needed ammo. 30&#37; of Kashmirs *voted for Pakistan* and 50% *voted against India*. With this poll the community in Kashmir can be easily branded as traitors.



Just look at that, you can't even quote data properly can you? for Pakistan you use "for" whatever that means. Instead of 71% vs 49% that you should be quoting. Its like heads I win and tails you lose. You keep losing credibility even more with such unsavory attempts.

These are percentage of people who said it was an UNACCEPTABLE solution to the J&K issue according to the survey.

Did you notice that only about 25% of Pakistani Kashmiris voted against joining India? So that means 75% would be ok to join India as well. Infact if we guaranteed Pakistani Kashmiris article 370 that fell down to 21%. What about that? Another hole in your theory. According to you 75% (or say 79% ) of Pakistani Kashmiris are traitors to the Pakistan. Higher than 49% who are against India.

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## pagans

Barrett said:


> A plebiscite under the already pending U.N resolution will be able to answer all questions.


The plebiscite will never happen because the result will go against India. India knows it, Pakistan knows it and Kashmiris knows it. That is why Anti-India people call for it and pro -India people remain mute on it.


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## Aslan

pagans said:


> Ask your question,friend.



What is your definition of the historical india, or the land that it had occupied. Who do you think are the people who can be called the indigenous population, like the indians or the Americas and the original locals of the Australia's.


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## DavyJones

EjazR - it is irrefutable that the rigged elections had caused discontent in Indian Kashmir. Discontent that was exploited by Pakistan to support the seperatists. 

We Indians helped the Mukti Bahani - Pakistan being our enemy supported JKLF, Hizbul etc. But the fact was that the Indian Army had not indulged in mass genocide like the Pak army in Bangladesh in 1971. The situation in 1989 was charged. Hindus were being killed in the valley -the chances of mass ethnic cleansing was there. Fortunately this did not happen. I consider the custodial deaths in Kashmir and shooting of protestors as relatively minor and localised acts. 

@pagans - Islamic fundamentalists have spoiled the issue in Kashmir today - they are calling for Islamic state etc. The issue of Islam has come up only recently in Kashmir. India sould prevent the radicalisation of Kashmir. The only way for this is to focus on Kashmiryat, secularism and common values with Kashmir.

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## Barrett

pagans said:


> The plebiscite will never happen because *the result will go against India*. India knows it, Pakistan knows it and Kashmiris knows it. That is why Anti-India people call for it and pro -India people remain mute on it.



For obvious reasons

The Kashmiris will not stop their struggle till they get what they want.


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## Barrett

DavyJones said:


> I consider the custodial deaths in Kashmir and shooting of protestors as relatively minor and localised acts.



No wonder they don't want to stay with India.


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## pagans

khalidali said:


> What is your definition of the historical india, or the land that it had occupied.


There is no historical India.It started off in 1947 just like Pakistan. But India contains a civilization which keeps India united and alive .This civilization was spread all over the subcontinent and beyond. Hinduism/Buddhism/Jainism and Sikhism and its derivatives and other other group who are amicable to this population like parsees Jews,Christians, Muslims etc define India in its historical context. 


> Who do you think are the people who can be called the indigenous population, like the indians or the Americas and the original locals of the Australia's.


All people in the Indian subcontinent are indigenous population.

---------- Post added at 08:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 PM ----------




Barrett said:


> No wonder they don't want to stay with India.


That is not the reason they don't want to stay with India.


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## pagans

Barrett said:


> For obvious reasons
> 
> The Kashmiris will not stop their struggle till they get what they want.


Since their wish is evil, bowing down to their demand is evil. Fight we must.


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## Barrett

pagans said:


> That is not the reason they don't want to stay with India.



Yes I agree, just one of the many of the same nature.


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## Hulk

While any small issue of Kashmir is highlighted here, there are mass casulaties is SW operation. In this case problem was created by Kashmiri's, if you creating ruckuss you should be ready for counter action. I have no sympathy with them, they are worst behaved people with fundamentalist thinking.


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## Windjammer

praveen said:


> The sooner Pakistan realizes it cannot pursue Kashmir,the faster it will divert from self-destruct mode



One wonders then why Indian Top Brass were sounding alarms ranting,

Kashmir is bleeding India.


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## Barrett

indianrabbit said:


> While any small issue of Kashmir is highlighted here, there are mass casulaties is SW operation.



Trademark rebuttal  you are most welcome to discuss SW on a relevant thread.


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## DavyJones

I don't think the "Kashmir struggle" exists out of a few big towns in the valley - in the most part there is no "Kashmir struggle". People in Kashmiri towns have nothing much to do and are daydreaming about an independent Kashmir. The youth don't want to play cricket or football but like throwing stones


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## pagans

Can anyone say Why 'India' rigged election in 1988 ? I don't know the whole story.
I just wanted to know who did it and why ?


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## pagans

Windjammer said:


> Kashmir is bleeding India.


Right,and it is bleeding Pakistan too.


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## Barrett

DavyJones said:


> The youth don't want to play cricket or football but like throwing stones



You forgot to mention the kids who like getting shot and the women who like getting raped by IA.

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## DavyJones

@Barret- have you been to Kashmir or understand anything about human nature?


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## praveen

Windjammer said:


> One wonders then why Indian Top Brass were sounding alarms ranting,
> 
> Kashmir is bleeding India.



but its impaling pakistan alive


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## Barrett

DavyJones said:


> @Barret- have you been to Kashmir or understand anything about human nature?



I am a Kashmiri


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## pagans

Barrett said:


> I am a Kashmiri


That's great. we can now have a first person account. You live in India or Pakistan (IOK or ***)?


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## EjazR

DavyJones said:


> EjazR - it is irrefutable that the rigged elections had caused discontent in Indian Kashmir. Discontent that was exploited by Pakistan to support the seperatists.
> 
> We Indians helped the Mukti Bahani - Pakistan being our enemy supported JKLF, Hizbul etc. But the fact was that the Indian Army had not indulged in mass genocide like the Pak army in Bangladesh in 1971. The situation in 1989 was charged. Hindus were being killed in the valley -the chances of mass ethnic cleansing was there. Fortunately this did not happen. I consider the custodial deaths in Kashmir and shooting of protestors as relatively minor and localised acts.
> 
> @pagans - Islamic fundamentalists have spoiled the issue in Kashmir today - they are calling for Islamic state etc. The issue of Islam has come up only recently in Kashmir. India sould prevent the radicalisation of Kashmir. The only way for this is to focus on Kashmiryat, secularism and common values with Kashmir.



I agree with you on this and would like to add that the media tends to report "newsworthy items" (aka TRP ratings and values) In Pakistani media, you will never hear of KAshmir muslims in the police and army fighting militants. Or militants attacking 15times more muslims than nonmuslim civilians. 

Every single incident is blown out of proportion and a regular newscast on PTV does not end by replaying images of police keeping a check on protesters which are labeled as "army actions". The army overall has done a pretty good job and has prosecuted those involved in HR abuses. It was mainly the CPRF which was less trained and less professional that had a bulk of HR abuse recorded against them. The media will not report the average regular Kashmiri going to work and making a living and contended with his life and family in India although having grouses against the government that we all have related to development and corruption. They will report on the unemployed youth that throws stones on the police. Recently there was a huge protest where rallies much much bigger than ones by Geelani were arranged and they walked all the way to Delhi. Sikhs and Hindus even with their children were protesting agains the government. BUT it was on the pay rise to J&K government transport workers but in some Pakistani media and some youtube clips it was shown as if these were separatists.

So obviously there are perception issues here. But once the governance issues are resolved and as many separatist leaders have indicated about agreeing to a solution very soon with the GoI, I feel optimistic that we will see an end to the Kashmir problem within a few years barring any other major development.

I draw your attention to Balochistan as an example were a similar situation exists but has experienced multiple full fledged insurgencies. Their discontent in many cases are legitimate state concerns like development, too much interference of the army in local affairs e.t.c Compare that to India were only one such has occurred in J&K and that too at the backdrop of Afghan war that was to change world dynamics.

The only concern are the Chinese as it would not be in their regional long term interests that India Pakistan resolve this issue although at the moment all they can do is act as irritants hopefully, but you have to be prepared for the worse.

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## Barrett

pagans said:


> That's great. we can now have a first person account. You live in India or Pakistan (IOK or ***)?


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## Windjammer

praveen said:


> but its impaling pakistan alive



It's your assumption, or wish, no one in Pakistan is walking around with headache tablets.


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## Hulk

Barrett said:


>



That fully explains the bais. 
About you claim of rapes can you list how many happened in 2009. I am asking for 2009 since it being recent. 
Backup with neutral links. 

Here is what feel is happening. Few people in good number want to seperate from India either for Azadi or Pakistan. They protest for whatever reason and the protest turns violent, the police(Kashmiri) fires/lathicharge to get things under control. Now this police action is same in rest of India and world, but only Kashmiri links it to oprresion. The point being if violent situation arise then police have to control the crowd, if crowd started violence they are to be blamed for end result not police. 

These people pelt stone for no reason, they did it at the time of Amarnath issue. I lost respect for them. 

If you want azadi does not mean you throw stone to injure a person doing his duty to earn his bread. 

If people really want Azadi they do get India bend on knees purely by peaceful means. History tell why great Mahatma was successful while violet freedom fighter around world are not. 

To start with if everybody wants freedom then stop voting get the number below 10% that will be first step. Stop paying tax on mass etc etc. If people are not doing it, means numbers are large but not majority.


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## pagans

Kashmiris pays very little taxes


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## paritosh

graphican said:


> Shahadat is the cost of Independence and 90,000 Kashmirees have offered that already. You cannot stop liberation movement by killing more of them. Independence is the fate of Kashmir and it shell be liberated! Inshallah!



well we talk of independence without giving the ground realities much thought.
India was not independent under the Raj because at that time the govt was imposed on us...there were no basic fundamental rights...people weren't allowed to assemble...the civil services exam was insanely difficult for the Indians...improper penal laws...etc.
now tell me Graphican...why do you feel that Kashmir is not independent?
I agree with one of the Indian posters saying that the Kashmiri separatists are not justified in their demands for independence...they are spreading misinformation for vested interests.


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## DavyJones

yea EjazR - good analysis.
Unfortunately the whole of Pak thinks Kashmir is under Indian Army rule which kills and maims Kashmiris at will. They equate Indian actions with Israel's in Palestine but the truth is something else. 
India has not built settlements to change the demographics in Kashmir. India is not throwing out Kashmiris from their land. We don't treat Kashmiris as enemies but as estranged brothers. I have been to Kashmir in fact t supposedly militant infested regions in Rajauri district. Peace reigns supreme. The Army is in it's barracks. Local people have set up Tata Sky and DishTV sets in villages and are having electricity, water and health support from the Indian army. The LoC fence has effectively blocked infiltrators to a large extent. In fact I went to the LoC and saw the fence (my friend's a captain in the Indian Army). Latest French, Japanese and Israeli monitoring equipment means most areas along the LoC are monitored well. 
The army is secular to the core - I visited a Muslim pir bab shrine near their post. In fact the shrine is open to visits from the locals even though it is in a sensitive and strategic position. The army provides for the shrine's upkeep.

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## paritosh

pagans said:


> Kashmiris pays very little taxes



+ no one from outside Kashmir can buy land or property in Kashmir...+ Kashmir is an alcohol free state


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## EjazR

Here is a website run by Indian Kashmiris which addresses news and articles for the entire J&K state. The insight section provides a good way to familiarise the issues in J&K from a pro-Indian Kashmiri perspective, including issues related to Gilgit Baltistan for example and militants forcing and threatning locals to provide logistic support base.

www.jammu-kashmir.com: Insights

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## Hulk

pagans said:


> Kashmiris pays very little taxes



Can you make me understand this, do you mean they are governed by different law or else.

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## Hulk

I want to understan this issue a little more. By population what &#37; of azad Kashmir have relation in Indian Kashmir.

Additionally. 
Are there similar amount of protest in Azad Kashmir against India. 

What I want to understand is how much people of Azad Kashmir has desire to unite with Indian Kasmir.


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## sensenreason

Barrett said:


> A plebiscite under the already pending U.N resolution will be able to answer all questions.



Yes. Exactly, like Bush asked UNSC to rubberstamp Iraq war...

UN, World Bank and IMF are no longer relevant institutions and surely not held in any respect by any country to solve disputes. Events have left UN far behind.

While there might be UN resolutions on J & K and ***; but to trust them in a psuedo non-anglo-saxon dominated multi polar world is stupidity. These institutions were used by UK/US post second world war to legitimise imperialism; but they are hardly credible now....

Another example of moral bankruptcy of global politics is whats happening in Copenhagen - Climate summit using sham science as exposed by leaked emails....

While your arguements about your position might have their own logic and relevance but am not sure whether you need to hold a plebiscite. Imagine a situation, where J&K chooses Pakistan in a plebiscite. Indians would not find it acceptable.

Simply due to the core ideology of what India stands for...secularism (however flawed and token it might be...) Pakistani people might believe they have a 'principlined' stand and India's stand is geo-political....the reality is exactly the opposite. Mull that over....

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## EjazR

^^^Mirpuris which constitute the bulk of Kashmiri diaspora are more Punjabi than Kashmiri. They had to leave their land and take refugee status in UK e.t.c because of flooding of their homes when GoP build a dam. You can identify this in the pictures where ethnic Kashmiris wear Pherans while Mirpuris usually wear punjabi style shalwar kameez.

The Gilgitis and Baltis are closer to Ldakhis in India although you hardly hear much about them. Most of the militant recruitment centre are based in Mirpur or Muzafarabad and these areas provide the bulk of militants who are "ethnic Kashmiris" Other than that you have the crazies from the Afghan war which include other Pakistanis and Afghans and to a lesser extent Arabs as well. 

For all intents and purposes the local militancy had been finished as JKLF had ordered a ceasefire and given to peaceful struggle in '95 after Pakistani security establishment was not happy with their aim to establish a united independent J&K. That's when we started to see suicide bombings, assassinations, targeting civilians including non-muslim minorities and even attacks in mosques where muslim children were killed and kidnapping and murdering of tourists. Things that had never happened before in the local militancy chapter.

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## EjazR

You can't have a free and fair plebescite until and unless the United Jihad council is shutdown and there are no militants threaning the locals. Then a plebescite has to be conducted on both sides including in PAkistan. Infact, Pakistan can go ahead and conduct a plebescite in area it controls to act as a pressure to India, but will they do it?

And ofcourse China has to return it illegally occupies like the Shaksam valley given away by Pakistan and Aksai Chin. Maybe Pakistan can use its good will to get these territories back?

Personally if there is a *free and fair* plebescite with only India and Pakistan as option as per UN resolution, its most likely that India will win. Geelani and his small group will have to listen to majoirty opinion. So will the people who live in Gilgit Baltistan e.t.c. 
This is after looking at the opinion survey that I posted earlier. Infact this is also the opinion of the Irish professor and expert in conflict studies who oversaw this study on www.peacepolls.org

Moreover, even if we ignore the legal argument of ascension which is what matters in an International court anyways. Sheikh Abdulla was by far the most popular leader and when the local people of J&K elected his government in 54 they basically ratified his resolution that was passed and stated that J&K state has acceded to India.

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## EjazR

Is there a source for this article? 

There is no mention of tribal invaders or the National Conference workers under Sheikh Abdula fighting them off as they raped and pillaged their way across the state. OR the mention that it was Sheikh Abdulla's National Conference that was leading the secular mass peasant movement against the autocratic rule of the Hindu Raja.


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## Barrett

indianrabbit said:


> That fully explains the bais.


And what makes your comments any less bias ?



indianrabbit said:


> About you claim of rapes can you list how many happened in 2009. I am asking for 2009 since it being recent.
> Backup with neutral links.



All the rapes before 2009 are justified under what new indian law ?


One killed, 150 injured as protests continue in Jammu & Kashmir following rape and murder of two young women
10 June 2009 
One killed, 150 injured as protests continue in Jammu & Kashmir following rape and murder of two young women | Amnesty International 

India: Rape and ill-treatment of women in Kashmir: Zarifa Bano, Bakhti and many others
UA 108/91 - India: Rape and ill-treatment of women in Kashmir: Zarifa Bano, Bakhti and many others | Amnesty International


Amnesty urges Obama to help end human rights abuses in IHK

*Amnesty Internationals concerns*
· Indian troops in Kashmir commit mass human rights abuses with impunity
· AFSPA a major contributor to rights violations
· Disappearances, *rapes*, extra judicial executions and deaths resulting from torture 
Amnesty urges Obama to help end human rights abuses in IHK | Kashmir Media Service


According to the Kashmiri-Canadian Council, 6,300 Kashmiri women have been raped.

"*Rape* is used by the Indian security forces to attack Kashmiri women suspected of sympathizing with "militants." Through rape, the security forces are aiming to punish and humiliate the entire community."

From Human Rights Watch.

"In Singhpur village, occupation forces barged into the house of Abdul Ahad and forcibly took his wife and daughter to a military camp where they were *gang-raped*."
Pakistan Alert Network: HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS IN KASHMIR

Hundreds of women have been raped with impunity and most of them go unreported given the social stigma and fear of retribution by the State; The GOI has been quick to deny and cover-up most of those cases which do get reported; The reported gang-rape of nine women at Shopian in October 1992 by an army unit was dismissed off-handedly after investigation by army and police, the very units charged with the crime, despite solid medical evidence to the contrary; no independent investigation by an impartial agency was carried out. The reported mass rape of over 20 women at Konan Poshpura in February 1991 was also handled in a similar evasive manner; the complaint was not investigated in a timely manner by an impartial agency and the medical evidence was dismissed without good cause; one of the victims who was nine months pregnant during the incident delivered a baby with a fractured left arm; Governor Girish Saxena who denied the incident admitted to mass rapes in the past by the Indian forces however. Rapes continue to be reported, an example from this year being the April 17 gang-rape of a 17-year old girl in Pahalgam
India and Human Rights in Kashmir - The Myth - India Together


Soldier jailed for Kashmir rape
BBC News | SOUTH ASIA | Soldier jailed for Kashmir rape

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## Materialistic

> On 30 October 1947, Nehru addressed a telegram to Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan saying:
> 
> "Our assurance that we shall withdraw our troops from Kashmir as soon as peace and order are restored and leave the decision about the future of the State to the people of the State is not merely a pledge to your Government but also to the people of Kashmir and to the world."
> 
> On 2 November 1947, in a Radio Broadcast Prime Minister Nehru repeated pledge to hold plebiscite in J&K "under international auspices like the United Nations. So the accession was conditioned with a promise of plebiscite, which was repeated, by the high-level Indian leaders as well as Indian representatives in the United Nations.



And now they say Kashmir Hindustan ka atoot ang hai ..lol 

62 yrs back their armies went to resolve a problem and now its part of their territory.




> Is there a source for this article?



keeping the source of article aside, i dont think there is any need to prove that Kashmir is a muslim majority state and they had and still have the right pending to decide which country they want to merge, and ofcourse this is also proven that they want to merge with Pakistan. 
Most of the things are what every one is studying in history, so personally i dont think there is any serious need of source to prove the basic soul or meaning of this article to any person belonging to South Asia.


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## TaimiKhan

EjazR said:


> Is there a source for this article?
> 
> There is no mention of tribal invaders or the National Conference workers under Sheikh Abdula fighting them off as they raped and pillaged their way across the state. OR the mention that it was Sheikh Abdulla's National Conference that was leading the secular mass peasant movement against the autocratic rule of the Hindu Raja.




This is from the official website of the Govt of AJ&K.


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## EjazR

*@Materialistic*

No one is denying its muslim majority (68&#37; according to 2001 census). But you are ASSUMING that all muslims would vote to join Pakistan.

Being a muslim is a matter of faith and religion and not joining Pakistan or disagreeing with GoP policies on J&K does not make them any less of a muslim. That is why its important to read a factual account of history and what happened to form a balanced opinion.


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## DavyJones

As you can see the Indian army punishes people if they indulge in wrong doing - (last report from BBC). In fact there have been many cases where such incidents have been heavily punished by the Army.

There is a strict policy to prevent such incidents and win the hearts and minds of the people - BBC News | SOUTH ASIA | Kashmir troops held after rape.

As mentioned earlier by some Indian members - the Indian army is not interested in sitting in Kashmir. Eventually a political settlement has to be reached for this to happen. For that the flourishing of true democracy is required. Kashmiris need to elect their leaders - the Hurriyat are no better than a bunch of gangsters.

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## Jatt Boy

Stop pretending that you are INDIAN. WTF is IOK ? 



pagans said:


> That's great. we can now have a first person account. You live in India or Pakistan (IOK or ***)?

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## SU-57E

*This is from the official website of the Govt of AJ&K.*
that says all.. what else can you expect from the site of puppet government of pakistan occupied kashmir.


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## TaimiKhan

s.raptorski said:


> *This is from the official website of the Govt of AJ&K.*
> that says all.. what else can you expect from the site of puppet government of pakistan occupied kashmir.



Atleast not 2000+ mass graves with no markings, or raping of women and girls & then throwing of their naked bodies, or the burning of religious Muslims sites, or the killing of thousands of Kashmiri youth, men, women and children, or the hundreds or thousands missing Kashmiris. Or the hundreds killed by indiscriminate Indian Army artillery fire on civilians population inside the Azad (from Indian barbarity) Jammu & Kashmir.

Much better results compared to the Indian Occupied Kashmir overrun by Indian Army and run by Indian Govt puppets. 

Check your own record and then open your mouth.

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## SU-57E

oh yeah ... everybody knows how azad is azad kashmir... i am forgetting the name of the water project in the region ... will tell you tomorrow. what you guys are doing in balochistan... 

and ruining the lives of kashmiris.. how can you even talk about that ...who sent militans in late 80s and early 90s... indian army is there to tackle them not trying to do operation searchlight (rings a bell????)... you should first introspect yourself then think of kashmir...
going to sleep now hence the small reply...will talk to you tomorrow... 
if you do not ban me....


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## TaimiKhan

s.raptorski said:


> oh yeah ... everybody knows how azad is azad kashmir... i am forgetting the name of the water project in the region ... will tell you tomorrow. what you guys are doing in balochistan...
> 
> and ruining the lives of kashmiris.. how can you even talk about that ...who sent militans in late 80s and early 90s... indian army is there to tackle them not trying to do operation searchlight (rings a bell????)... you should first introspect yourself then think of kashmir...
> going to sleep now hence the small reply...will talk to you tomorrow...
> if you do not ban me....



Anything better then diverting the discussion to Balochistan or a water project of no consequence to divert the discussion from the brutality of Indian Army. 

If they are tackling militants then why 60,000+ people are dead ?? Why Indian Human Rights guys asking for inquiry to the thousands of mass graves uncovered or why Kashmiris protest to the raped women whose bodies were found and the Indian govt tried to cover that up. 

I have lived in Kashmir, don;t you worry, the people over there are very happy free from Indian Army's good deeds. 

If you have something better to share do come back or else no need as i know what you gonna discuss to divert the attention from the real issue at hand. Old trick of you guys to bring in other things like Balochistan without even knowing the ground realities. 

World organizations cry about the atrocities being done in Indian Occupied Kashmir not about the Azad Jammu & Kashmir. Check it up.

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## Hulk

Good to share the history, but unfortunately both sides of history has their bias, I therefore cannot take everything on face value. If there is a neutral history, I will like to learn.


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## mr42O

s.raptorski said:


> oh yeah ... everybody knows how azad is azad kashmir... i am forgetting the name of the water project in the region ... will tell you tomorrow. what you guys are doing in balochistan...
> 
> and ruining the lives of kashmiris.. how can you even talk about that ...who sent militans in late 80s and early 90s... indian army is there to tackle them not trying to do operation searchlight (rings a bell????)... you should first introspect yourself then think of kashmir...
> going to sleep now hence the small reply...will talk to you tomorrow...
> if you do not ban me....



Since every Indian mention Balochistan every time Kashmir is mentioned prooves Indians involvment i Balochistan. Said so Balochistan is Pakistani AREA and it has always been. Its a internal problem so INDIANS STFU.

Back to Kashmir its Pakistan AREA becuase deal was made that area with most muslims will go into Pakistan. Ya there are 68 &#37; muslims as u saying ( have not checked my self ) since many has been killed and hindus has moved it. 

Can you tell me if Kashmir was Indian area why havnet after 62 years Indian has done what they agreed too ? To have election so ppl can decide. Since India knew what will happen. And after 62 years India are still afraid to do so. Why is that ?

In Azad Kashmir every free media is allowed to go and report why Indians not even allowing there own media ?

And stop talking about Balochistan every time you dont have answer. You can start new thread if want. But its not your problem its our internal issue so stfu. Worry more about 50 % area Indians dont have controll of.


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## Honor

Barrett said:


> only if you knew China controls 20% of kashmir
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And before you tell china to solve its problems you have plenty of your own to deal with.



India should return Kashmir to Pakistan!


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## toxic_pus

Honor said:


> India should return Kashmir to Pakistan!


...in the same breath, China should return Kashmir to India and Pakistan.

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## Honor

toxic_pus said:


> ...in the same breath, China should return Kashmir to India and Pakistan.



If all Kashmir land is given back to Pakistan, China should do so too.

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## pagans

indianrabbit said:


> Can you make me understand this, do you mean they are governed by different law or else.


They don't pay taxes because ,they don't like paying taxes to 'Hindu' government.


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## EjazR

*States asked to set up spl courts for human rights cases*

Centre has asked state governments to set up special courts to try cases of human rights violation, Minister of State for Home Ajay Maken told Rajya Sabha today.

Replying to supplementaries during Question Hour, he said 10 states have already set up Human Rights Courts to try cases like custodial deaths.

"We wish all states set up such designated courts soon," he said.

On the question of honour killings, he said such a killing was "just like any other murder" and carried the same punishment. "By using different terms, there is no distinction between the two," he said.

About the appointment of National Human Rights Commission Chairman, Maken said only a retired Supreme Court judge below the age of 70 can hold the post.

There are only two persons who meet the criteria and both have declined the offer saying they are either not inclined or not available for the job, he said.

*On custodial deaths in Jammu and Kashmir, he said three custodial deaths were reported from the state during the past three years. No custodial death was reported in 2006-07, three in 2007-08 and nil in 2008-09, he added.*

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## pagans

Honor said:


> If all Kashmir land is given back to Pakistan, China should do so too.


Back to Pakistan ? When did Pakistan had Kashmir ?

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## pagans

EjazR said:


> Is there a source for this article?
> 
> There is no mention of tribal invaders or the National Conference workers under Sheikh Abdula fighting them off as they raped and pillaged their way across the state. OR the mention that it was Sheikh Abdulla's National Conference that was leading the secular mass peasant movement against the autocratic rule of the Hindu Raja.



???Just more propaganda by Separatists to hate India and Hindus. Who said raja was autocratic and when did NC became secular ?


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## PAFAce

DesiGuy said:


> OK.
> than how about this?
> 
> after Kashmir is given back to Pakistan, Pakistan should be given to India.



Okay, but the flag remains the Sabz-Hilali and the name remains Pakistan.

Why would you want Pakistan when you hate us so much? For the same reasons you occupy Kashmir, land. Kashmiris don't want to be with India, Pakistanis don't want to be with India, Indiands, as far as I can tell, can't stand Pakistanis. So let everyone have what they want.

Way to go, brave Kashmiris. Splattering brains doesn't squash the mind.

*Excerpt from George Orwell's Ninteen Eighty Four*
_"In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality, was tacitly denied by their philosophy. The heresy of heresies was common sense. And what was terrifying was not that they would kill you for thinking otherwise, but that they might be right. For, after all, how do we know that two and two make four? Or that the force of gravity works? Or that the past is unchangeable? If both the past and the external world exist only in the mind, and if the mind itself is controllable&#8212;what then?"_


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## mrwarrior006

@honor

wy should india give kashmir to pakistan .kashmir was never pakistans-do u get my point


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## Honor

mrwarrior006 said:


> @honor
> 
> wy should india give kashmir to pakistan .kashmir was never pakistans-do u get my point



My understanding is that Kashmir belongs to Muslim and naturally it should belongs to Pakistan. Please correct me if i am wrong


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## grey boy 2

DesiGuy said:


> @grey boy2
> 
> 
> being chiness, why r u so worried about Kashmir?
> 
> unlike china, India don't block websites, so people will never know outside world.
> 
> before you talk about Kashmir, solve Tibetans xinjiang problems.




So, going by your logic, members on this forum will only be 

approprate to post things according to their nationality ?

Next time please do a little thinking with your brain before bashing the

messenger, OK ?


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## Red Dwarf

> My understanding is that Kashmir belongs to Muslim and naturally it should belongs to Pakistan. Please correct me if i am wrong



Kashmir not belongs to Muslim. It belongs to Kasmiri people. Majority of Kashmiris are Muslims but that doesn't mean that it should be given to Pakistan. 

By your theory we will have to give every Muslim dominated area to Pakistan. How on earth that is possible. 

Kashmir was not a part of India or Pakistan when both of them got separated. Kashmir had taken the decision to join India than Pakistan. What will we do when a territory trying to join India. Accept or reject it ?


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## deckingraj

@ Members

If people are finished deciding whom shall kasmir..pakistan...tibet go can we please get back to topic...

Greyboy apart from posting news don't you think you should also post your POV so that we get a direction on why you posted it and what exactly you want to discuss??? This will guide the discussion into some discussion rather than useless posts of gifting boundaries...


Anyways i have a question for members....Do you think house arresting some of the hurriyat leaders is a good move or something that backfires???


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## Honor

Red Dwarf said:


> Kashmir not belongs to Muslim. It belongs to Kasmiri people. Majority of Kashmiris are Muslims but that doesn't mean that it should be given to Pakistan.
> 
> By your theory we will have to give every Muslim dominated area to Pakistan. How on earth that is possible.
> 
> Kashmir was not a part of India or Pakistan when both of them got separated. Kashmir had taken the decision to join India than Pakistan. What will we do when a territory trying to join India. Accept or reject it ?



My information is that it is not the kasmiri people who wanted to join India. It is the work of Maharaja who acceded the control to India by the instigation of Louis Mountbatten.


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## toxic_pus

Honor said:


> My information is that it is not the kasmiri people who wanted to join India. It is the work of Maharaja who acceded the control to India by the instigation of Louis Mountbatten.


How do you know if the kashmiri people didn't want to join India? Is there any evidence to corroborate that assertion? On the other hand National Conference, the largest party in Kashmir then, was extensively consulted by India, before Maharaja signed the Instrument of Accession. 

You are talking of 'instigation'. Thats funny. It was Pakistan which was hell bent on coercing the same Maharaja, whose decision they now dispute, into signing the same Instrument of Accession, which they now dispute as well, with them. Since the only road contact that Kashmir had with the outer world was via Pakistan, it depended solely on Pakistan for sustenance. And what did your Pakistani friends do to coerce him to sign that instrument? When their verbal coercion failed, they stopped supplying salt, petrol and coins, which were minted in Pakistan. Then fomented rebellion in Poonch sector.


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## EjazR

*IBNLive : Suhasini Haidar's Blog : Jammu and Kashmir: Seize the Moment*
*Suhasini Haidar*
Opportunities, says ancient Chinese strategist Sun Tzu, multiply as they are seized. A leader doesn't just make things happen, he is able to see when destiny beckons and the stars are lined up in the right constellation. Then the opportunity for resolution and a chance to change the course of history presents itself.

As the shots hit Hurriyat leader Fazl Haq Qureshi coming out of a mosque in Srinagar this month, but missed their mark in stopping the dialogue process between the Hurriyat and the centre, it was one more indicator that the opportunity for a resolution in Jammu and Kashmir is presenting itself. A window of rare opportunity to break a twenty-year-old cycle of violence that must be seized.

It was rare enough to hear Home Minister P Chidambaram admit in Parliament what his government took great pains to deny for months - that he was in 'quiet talks' with separatist Kashmiri leaders.

He backed it up with other announcements, withdrawing several paramilitary battalions from the valley, and pushing Jammu-Kashmir police into the 'frontlines' of state security.

Each of those initiatives would have been unheard of some years ago, but point to the fact that the central government, bolstered by wins in successive elections, today feels empowered to take them.

Ironically, the most far-reaching initiative for the resolution of the Kashmir problem to date was the one taken not by this government - but the NDA government that preceded it, when it announced a ceasefire along the Line of Control in November 2003. That ceasefire, which has largely held for six years, became the springboard for all the initiatives that followed, including the Srinagar-Muzzafarabad bus.

Since 2003, the two sides have followed a four-step plan laid out by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh as he pursued negotiations with President Musharraf (2004-2007) viz., to move the Army back to the barracks in Valley towns like Srinagar, Baramullah, Kupwara and Anantnag, transfer control to paramilitary forces, build up the J&K police force, and then to work on cross-LOC linkages- transport, trade, tourism.

Relative calm at the LOC was followed in the years by relative peace in the valley. While many in India may be uncomfortable admitting it- Pakistan's actions, or lack of them there in the recent past have helped. They're the reason the fires that raged over two successive summers: the Amarnath agitation in 2008, and protests over the Shopian murders in 2009 were able to burn themselves out. And the state witnessed two general elections (2004 and 2009) and two state elections (2002 and 2008)- each one overturning the government in power, without any volatility.

Pakistan's virtual acceptance of the LOC as a more permanent "Line of Peace" is best reflected in its latest efforts to reorganize parts of ***- and give Gilgit-Baltistan provincial status.

*Many wounds have had a chance to heal in this time - according to official estimates the number of violent incidents in a year at the peak of militancy were 6000. Last year, they numbered 400. 17% of the population suffered from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in 2004- a number that has steadily decreased. Perhaps the greatest healing will only follow the return of Pandits to homes they were driven from nearly two decades ago- last month the community came together with former Muslim neighbours in Srinagar's Rainawari to renovate the abandoned Shiv temple there. These are all positive signs that should be counted even as we chronicle levels of infiltration and fidayeen attacks which we resolutely need to combat.*

*Finally, the rarest part of the alignment is the transfer of power to a new generation of leadership across the board. In the mainstream, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah and Leader of the opposition Mehbooba Mufti may disagree on everything else- but they are fully behind the current dialogue process with the Hurriyat, and their own solutions for the state differ only marginally.*

*For the separatists, the old guard of Geelani may never come on board, but others like Prof Abdul Ghani Bhat have already deferred to the Hurriyat's Gen-next: Mirwaiz Umer Farooq, Sajjad and Bilal Lone to move ahead with talks.*

*Three young men with a tragic and powerful common bond- they lost their fathers to terrorists on exactly the same day 12 years apart (May 12), targeted for trying to talk to New Delhi.*

*They're accompanied by a powerful voice of peace who has made the journey from the gun and prosecution by the state, JKLF chief Yasin Mallik.*

The biggest change is the call by the Hurriyat for the NC and PDP to work with it on a solution, thereby overturning a decades-old stand of being the "sole representatives of the Kashmiri people".

'Azaadi' may not be a viable option for any of them today- but what New Delhi needs to recognize, and prepare the nation for is that none of these leaders can go on endlessly with the status quo.

"Silence or absence of overt defiance by the war weary Kashmiri should not be treated as a change in the sentiment," warned Sajjad Lone in his 2006 paper: Achievable Nationhood. Both the Mufti's doctrine of Self-Rule, and Abdullah's concept of Autonomy (passed unanimously by the J&K assembly in 2000 but rejected by the Union cabinet) find many areas of common cause.

Interestingly, each of them proposes solutions, shorn of the rhetoric, that can be found within the Indian Constitution- which is imperative. For the government, to move forward would involve the sort of flexibility it has already shown in the Naga peace process (more power to the state, changing nomenclature of the government and head of government etc), and others.

In Qazigund this October, the Prime Minister linked peace and prosperity in Jammu and Kashmir with the India-Pakistan peace process calling for a new 'humanitarian agenda' as a basis to restart talks with Pakistan. And perhaps paraphrasing Sun Tzu's words on the urgency of the moment he offered up an Urdu couplet:
_
Yeh jabr bhi dekha hai taareekh ki nazron ne&#8232;

Lamhon ne khata ki thi sadiyon ne sazaa payee_

(These are the lessons of time: for the mistakes made by moments, the punishment is meted out to centuries)

In terms of Jammu and Kashmir, the real mistake would be for the Prime Minister to fail to seize the moment now.


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## Honor

toxic_pus said:


> How do you know if the kashmiri people didn't want to join India? Is there any evidence to corroborate that assertion? On the other hand National Conference, the largest party in Kashmir then, was extensively consulted by India, before Maharaja signed the Instrument of Accession.
> 
> You are talking of 'instigation'. Thats funny. It was Pakistan which was hell bent on coercing the same Maharaja, whose decision they now dispute, into signing the same Instrument of Accession, which they now dispute as well, with them. Since the only road contact that Kashmir had with the outer world was via Pakistan, it depended solely on Pakistan for sustenance. And what did your Pakistani friends do to coerce him to sign that instrument? When their verbal coercion failed, they stopped supplying salt, petrol and coins, which were minted in Pakistan. Then fomented rebellion in Poonch sector.



Kashmiri wants to join India? Any evidence?


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## ssheppard

Honor said:


> Kashmiri wants to join India? Any evidence?



I am a Kashmiri.....Me and thousands of other like me want to join India..... I have Indian passport...and I have traveled world on that. I earn a good living and enjoy all freedoms.

Why join India.... we consider ourselves as Indian Citizens and are proud to be a part of India ....we are getting equal opportunities here .....and we are making contribution towards making India a better place for all Indians.

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## toxic_pus

Honor said:


> Kashmiri wants to join India? Any evidence?


You alluded that the Kashmiris *didn't* want to join India and that it was the Maharaja who did that. It all happened in '47. The question you had raised was what Kashmiris wanted *then*. What Kashmiris want *now*, is another issue. Don't try to shift your goal post.


Honor said:


> My information is that it is not the kasmiri people who wanted to join India. It is the work of Maharaja who acceded the control to India by the instigation of Louis Mountbatten.


Besides, *ssheppard*'s reply should suffice for now.


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## arihant

Honor said:


> My understanding is that Kashmir belongs to Muslim and naturally it should belongs to Pakistan. Please correct me if i am wrong



Ya you are wrong. India has equal no. of muslims like Pakistan has. While Pakistan doesn't have equal no. of Hindus, India has. India is secular and Pakistan is Islamic. Kashmir includes not Only Muslims but also large Hindus and Buddhist. Pakistan is divided by Religion not India.


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## mrwarrior006

@HONOR 
first muslims dont belong to india or this south asia (no offence plz just history check for honor so dont flame me i am not BJP or RSS)

so you want me to say india should give whole of india coz india has more muslims than pakistan or china the xianxing province(ujhr muslims is tat wat tey call i am not sure correct me if i am wrong) 

dude maharaja ceded kashmir to india fearing pakistani invasion and by the way there are buddhists and pundits also in kashmir for ur knowledge


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## ssheppard

In a startling interview to a local television channel, senior Hurriyat leader Bilal Lone has come out with a shocker that every separatist leader in Jammu and Kashmir has been on Pakistan&#8217;s pay roll. In what has embarrassed several with the Hurriyat, though the All-Parties Hurriyat Conference Chief Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has still not spoken out against the allegations made by is the direct manner in which Lone has made his claims. While being harsher on the hardliners his claims are overarching in their reach. 

&#8220;I haven&#8217;t taken money from both sides. I've taken it only from one side. For the last one and a half years money from this channel has also stopped. Thank God for it. We don't betray the people who financially help us,&#8221; Lone said in the interview. On the other hand, even Syed Ali Shah Geelani, the hardliner has not reacted. He has been admitted to the hospital in Srinagar after his rally on Friday. But party sources say he has chosen not to react immediately. 


Pak paid separatist: Bilal Lone- TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos

These separatists have time and again proved that they are not interested in the welfare of the people of Kashmir, but are in fact their enemies. They are working at the behest of Pakistan and are on the payroll of that country. They are their agents.

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## ssheppard

When the first Shopian incident took place Mehbooba Mufti and her associates took out a march from Srinagar chanting slogans against the government and security forces. When the militants killed a three-year-old child shouldn&#8217;t they have taken out a march then? What kind of justice is this? And who are these so called freedom fighters fighting for ...No Kashmir ...Not Kashmiris..they are keeping whole of Kashmir Burning for their benefit.....to mop up money from Pakistan..

I think...Now is the time Kashmiris should chuck these Suckers out of Kashmir......and treat them like dogs.

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## Hulk

ssheppard said:


> When the first Shopian incident took place Mehbooba Mufti and her associates took out a march from Srinagar chanting slogans against the government and security forces. When the militants killed a three-year-old child shouldnt they have taken out a march then? What kind of justice is this? And who are these so called freedom fighters fighting for ...No Kashmir ...Not Kashmiris..they are keeping whole of Kashmir Burning for their benefit.....to mop up money from Pakistan..
> 
> I think...Now is the time Kashmiris should chuck these Suckers out of Kashmir......and treat them like dogs.



Mehebooba mufti is playing politics, otherwise why she does not make peaceful attempt. She even protested agianst decesion made by own minister. She is a shame for personal gains promotes flame.

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## Awesome

Job well done, Pakistan.

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## Windjammer

indianrabbit said:


> I was telling this for long that HC was on Pakistan's payroll and all these staged demonstration is a proof of that. The good thing is now it is in open.



You should buy a Parrot and take a place in Time Square.
Even if you can't tell fortunes, you can make predictions on Kashmir.


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## Panditji

Coming back to the thread topic (and not to feed the trolls) let me remind you that I had mentioned on the Geelani passport thread, that all these so called leaders of Hurriyat are paid by Pakistan. Now one of the leaders himself has admitted it. Right on TV.

On this background, what is the justification for Pakistani members to rave and rant about India helping TTP etc? (even if it were true, which it is not).

The issue about Pakistani psyche is it does not acknowledge their country's irresponsible behaviour, but is hyperreactive about perceived injustices done to it, whether real or imaginary (mostly imaginary).

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## rajeev

Panditji said:


> Coming back to the thread topic (and not to feed the trolls) let me remind you that I had mentioned on the Geelani passport thread, that all these so called leaders of Hurriyat are paid by Pakistan. Now one of the leaders himself has admitted it. Right on TV.
> 
> On this background, what is the justification for Pakistani members to rave and rant about India helping TTP etc? (even if it were true, which it is not).
> 
> The issue about Pakistani psyche is it does not acknowledge their country's irresponsible behaviour, but is hyperreactive about perceived injustices done to it, whether real or imaginary (mostly imaginary).



There is no denying that Pakistan was responsible for all this. 
Mushraff admitted that Pakistan had camps and they were getting sent to Kashmir. Now, Hurriyat is! Feel pity because most Pakistanis were talking about how their government had no involvement in these terrorist activities.

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## Panditji

Pity? - Maybe, after they bring back to life all those who have lost their lives to the recklessness of the Pakistani rulers.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

ssheppard said:


> When the first Shopian incident took place Mehbooba Mufti and her associates took out a march from Srinagar chanting slogans against the government and security forces. When the militants killed a three-year-old child shouldn&#8217;t they have taken out a march then? What kind of justice is this? And who are these so called freedom fighters fighting for ...No Kashmir ...Not Kashmiris..they are keeping whole of Kashmir Burning for their benefit.....to mop up money from Pakistan..
> 
> I think...Now is the time Kashmiris should chuck these Suckers out of Kashmir......and treat them like dogs.


 I'm sorry, but what exactly is wrong with Pakistan funding the parties that argue against Indian occupation of disputed territory that Pakistan claims as well?

A brouhaha over nothing is what it appears to be.

The politicians that contest the elections in Indian Occupied Kashmir and are elected into the legislature are paid by India are they not? 

And many of those politicians have a 'pro-India' stance - so would that indicate that the participation of most politicians in Indian held elections is because they are on the 'payroll of India' and hence they are 'Indian agents' hardly concerned about the rights of the people of J&K, especially the right to self determination promised them by the UNSC and India (before it reneged on its commitment).

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Panditji said:


> Pity? - Maybe, after they bring back to life all those who have lost their lives to the recklessness of the Pakistani rulers.



Can the Indian security forces bring back to life the tens of thousands tortured and massacred by them and buried in mass graves?

Let me know how that works out.

The real 'pity' is that Indian continues to occupy the territory and deny the Kashmiris the right to self determination as promised in the UNSC resolutions and accepted by India.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

ssheppard said:


> I am a Kashmiri.....Me and thousands of other like me want to join India..... I have Indian passport...and I have traveled world on that. I earn a good living and enjoy all freedoms.
> 
> Why join India.... we consider ourselves as Indian Citizens and are proud to be a part of India ....we are getting equal opportunities here .....and we are making contribution towards making India a better place for all Indians.



Fantastic - then India should have no problems in allowing a plebiscite held by the UN in the dispute region, since you and a majority of other Kashmiris will elect to become a part of India.

Till you do that, its just empty words and lies.


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## Honor

toxic_pus said:


> You alluded that the Kashmiris *didn't* want to join India and that it was the Maharaja who did that. It all happened in '47. The question you had raised was what Kashmiris wanted *then*. What Kashmiris want *now*, is another issue. Don't try to shift your goal post.
> 
> Besides, *ssheppard*'s reply should suffice for now.



I did not say that Kashmiris did not want to join India! I wanted some evidence to proof Kashmiris wanted to join India.

I had information that it is Maharaja that ceded Kashmir to India. I did not have information that it is the majority of Kashmiris that rise up against Pakistan and join India.

I am just linking up information given to me. 

mrwarrior006 also mentioned that it is Maharahi that ceded Kashmir to India and it is not Kashmiris who wanted to join India!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Honor said:


> Kashmiri wants to join India? Any evidence?



There is no evidence that Kashmiris ever wanted to join India or want to join India - the fact that India reneged on its commitment to the UNSC resolution to hold a UN led plebiscite in Kashmir is an indicator that they never really believed the Kashmiris would vote in their favor.

Even now some Indians will argue that Kashmiris want to be a part of India, and then you ask them to allow the UN to hold a plebiscite and they lose their 'cojones' so to speak, and come up with all sorts of excuses as to why that is not an option - the real reason being that they know their arguments on 'Kashmiri support for India' are lies and distortions, both past and present.


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## manojb

Two Kashmiri women whose deaths sparked protests were not raped or murdered, Indian investigators have concluded.
The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) told the high court in Srinagar in Indian-administered Kashmir that the women drowned in a canal.
The families of the women told the court that the CBI had hushed up the case to protect the guilty.
The CBI took over the case in the summer after state authorities admitted the women had been raped and murdered.
The discovery of the women's bodies in May led to weeks of violent protests by locals who blamed security forces for the deaths.
Police 'cleared'
The bodies of the women were exhumed in September by the CBI in a fresh attempt to determine what happened to them.
In its report presented to the high court on Monday, the CBI accused 13 people, including six doctors, five lawyers and two civilians, of fabricating a false case.
The CBI report says the doctors gave false post-mortem reports and sent slides for DNA examination that had been tampered with.
However, the investigating agency absolved four police officers who had earlier been arrested on charges of destroying evidence.
The report said the allegations against them were not substantiated.
Relatives of the two women and campaigners accused the CBI of trying to protect the guilty.
The CBI had not recorded vital information provided by the relatives of the two women, they told the high court.
Protests
The bodies of Neelofar Jan, 22, and her 17-year-old sister-in-law, Ayesha, were found in a canal in the town of Shopian on 30 May.
The women had gone missing the previous evening.
Local residents said they had been raped and murdered either by police or paramilitary forces.
Protests shut the town for 47 days. At least two people were killed and 500 injured in clashes with police after demonstrations spread to other parts of the Kashmir valley.
State authorities said at first the women had drowned, before admitting they had been raped and murdered.
Facing charges of a cover-up and with no one brought to justice, the state government handed over the investigation to the CBI.
The Kashmir High Court Bar Association opposed the move, saying the CBI lost its credibility in Kashmir during its investigation into a sex scandal three years ago.

BBC News - Kashmir women 'were not murdered', says Indian report


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## rajeev

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Can the Indian security forces bring back to life the tens of thousands tortured and massacred by them and buried in mass graves?
> 
> Let me know how that works out.
> 
> The real 'pity' is that Indian continues to occupy the territory and deny the Kashmiris the right to self determination as promised in the UNSC resolutions and accepted by India.



This is sad AM. When it is open out that your govt was not only supporting the terrorists by funding them and setting up camps and free open arena where they could not only train these terrorists. Now it out that it your government also supported Hurriyat. Whatz up with that? You are talking about the collateral damage where terrorist in-breeding proped-up media blizz with Indian government inaction where local illiterate Pakistanis sent across to India as canon fodder to mask as Kashmiris , Mujahadeen or even Deccan Mujahadeen. 

Even the PA soldiers mask along with Mujahadeen and act as if Kashmir freedom movement in 65, in kargil, I feel deeply sad that you are able to see what is going in front of your eyes and still claim that Indian occupied land where it was Kashmiris that informed India of occupation by your Indian freedom movement in 1965 and in Kargil.

How is it possible that you are only able to twist the story? Now, it is pretty obvious why the senior Hurriyat was killed? Why he wanted to talk with India?

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## Bullhead

Its high time that kashmiris realize that Pakistan is no guardian angel of their's......Pakistan just wants to take its revenge from India ....add some land to Pakistan's map....and thats it.....Pakistan wants Kashmir resources....with or without Kashmiris ....it does not matter.....the whole Azad Kashmir is just a sham...a smoke screen to help hide its Hurt India movements.....I am sure after Kashmir thher will be one more ...Khalistan...Pilistan..Dhilistan....and similar stans movements funded by Pakistan.....to keep on troubling India.....Its about time ...India gives back to Pakistan that Pakistan...is giving to India......in a similar manner.

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## PlanetWarrior

For the sake of justice for the victims the investigations should have been handed to a an agency which is deemed as being credible by the community

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## mrwarrior006

pakistan wants kashmir so tat it can have water resources in its control and not oly tat its strategic gain and free movement b/w pakistan and china 

it really doesnt care kashmirs value

wat was more shocking when tey ceded it to china(gift is wat tey call ridiculos man) and tey say tey care for kashmiris

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## Honor

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> There is no evidence that Kashmiris ever wanted to join India or want to join India - the fact that India reneged on its commitment to the UNSC resolution to hold a UN led plebiscite in Kashmir is an indicator that they never really believed the Kashmiris would vote in their favor.
> 
> Even now some Indians will argue that Kashmiris want to be a part of India, and then you ask them to allow the UN to hold a plebiscite and they lose their 'cojones' so to speak, and come up with all sorts of excuses as to why that is not an option - the real reason being that they know their arguments on 'Kashmiri support for India' are lies and distortions, both past and present.



Why India reneged on its commitment to the UNSC resolution to hold a UN led plebiscite in Kashmir? This could well resolved the territorial dispute!


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## PAFAce

ssheppard said:


> I am a Kashmiri.....Me and thousands of other like me want to join India..... I have Indian passport...and I have traveled world on that. I earn a good living and enjoy all freedoms.
> 
> Why join India.... we consider ourselves as Indian Citizens and are proud to be a part of India ....we are getting equal opportunities here .....and we are making contribution towards making India a better place for all Indians.



Let me take this opportunity to say... Bull Sh*t. I've met enough legit Kashmiris in my life to know otherwise, unlike most of the people posting on this damn forum.


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## Halaku Khan

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I'm sorry, but what exactly is wrong with Pakistan funding the parties that argue against Indian occupation of disputed territory that Pakistan claims as well?
> 
> A brouhaha over nothing is what it appears to be.
> 
> The politicians that contest the elections in Indian Occupied Kashmir and are elected into the legislature are paid by India are they not?
> 
> And many of those politicians have a 'pro-India' stance - so would that indicate that the participation of most politicians in Indian held elections is because they are on the 'payroll of India' and hence they are 'Indian agents' hardly concerned about the rights of the people of J&K, especially the right to self determination promised them by the UNSC and India (before it reneged on its commitment).



Now that you have been caught, trying to brazen it out?

If there is nothing wrong with Hurriyat being on payroll of Pakistan, then why did you not make it public before you were exposed in the media?

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## haawk

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I'm sorry, but what exactly is wrong with Pakistan funding the parties that argue against Indian occupation of disputed territory that Pakistan claims as well?
> 
> A brouhaha over nothing is what it appears to be.
> 
> The politicians that contest the elections in Indian Occupied Kashmir and are elected into the legislature are paid by India are they not?
> 
> And many of those politicians have a 'pro-India' stance - so would that indicate that the participation of most politicians in Indian held elections is because they are on the 'payroll of India' and hence they are 'Indian agents' hardly concerned about the rights of the people of J&K, especially the right to self determination promised them by the UNSC and India (before it reneged on its commitment).



so are you saying that if india sends people into pakistan occupied kashmirto fight your troops there .then it is totally acceptable to pakistan andyou will keep quoet about it? -since india does claim that part of kashmir too..........
so what is wrong if india gives money to terrorists(according to pak govt) if it is going to keep its part of kashmir free of mishaps...since you guys will concentrate somewhere else and leave the indian territory alone?

what kind off stupid logic from you?you guys want kashmir so you send so called freedom fighters who come here and end up killing kashmiris -the very people whom you claim to be fighiting for and to keep the kashmiris quiet you guys give money to some greedy locals(so called seperatists) so that only what you guys do -goes quiet .and here you are supporting trechery!

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## Hulk

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I'm sorry, but what exactly is wrong with Pakistan funding the parties that argue against Indian occupation of disputed territory that Pakistan claims as well?
> 
> A brouhaha over nothing is what it appears to be.
> 
> The politicians that contest the elections in Indian Occupied Kashmir and are elected into the legislature are paid by India are they not?
> 
> And many of those politicians have a 'pro-India' stance - so would that indicate that the participation of most politicians in Indian held elections is because they are on the 'payroll of India' and hence they are 'Indian agents' hardly concerned about the rights of the people of J&K, especially the right to self determination promised them by the UNSC and India (before it reneged on its commitment).



What is wrong is that they create fake issue to build anti India sentiments. This explains why everything that happens in J&K gets hyped. Easier for us to defend now, thats all.


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## Windjammer

This spectacular was reported by Times Now. !!!!

Enough said.


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## haawk

Windjammer said:


> This spectacular was reported by Times Now. !!!!
> 
> Enough said.



it does not matter who reports it here is the vedio link "http://www.timesnow.tv/videoshow/4334246.cms" cant say the guy didnt say what was reported can you?

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## dabong1

Whats the big deal..?


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## Panditji

Yeah, it's never a big deal when somebody unmasks the nefarious designs of Pakistan meddling in and actively abetting violence against innocent civilians in other countries. Only if it happens the other way round it should be a big deal, right?

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## haawk

dabong1 said:


> Whats the big deal..?



its nothing for you ......not for us .............


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## god

how on earth does kashmir being a disputed territory gives pakistan right to do what ever it like? And if pakistan considers it to be their right it is the right time to make some investments in pakistan also and hell ya we have enough money to return the favor more than what pakistan would have invested.


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## Windjammer

I suppose these teenagers were also on Pakistan Pay Roll, or did they only get the pocket money.


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## PAFAce

Unbelievable. What can one do when a billion people are in denial of clear facts. They will pick and choose what to believe, and then believe it without a shred of evidence. This same guy, had he uttered a word against Indian occupation, would have been ridiculed and dismissed.

Kashmiris don't want freedom from Indian occupation? Says who? The occupiers themselves, and nobody else but them. Like AM has said so many times, if its that unanimous, what's stopping the government from having a free and fair, monitored by the UN, plebiscite?



Windjammer said:


> I suppose these teenagers were also on Pakistan Pay Roll, or did they only get the pocket money.


Yes. And so were all these:



























http://www.javno.com/slike/slike_3/r1/g2009/m03/y198256373798627.jpg
http://brightcove.vo.llnwd.net/d7/u...0701dv-kashmir-protest-SJ-s260608AT1VW104.jpg

And most of all, we sponsor child-terrorism. I mean, there is no better weapon than children:
http://movies.ndtv.com/images/PhotoGallery/kashmir/2.jpg
http://brahmanicalterrorism.files.w...-warms-her-hands-with-a-fire-in-drangyari.jpg
http://images.lightstalkers.org/images/371464/i_large.jpg

We're paying them all. Damn, Pakistan is richer than I thought!



> A Pakistani talking about nation in denial mode, atleast we accept the problem is there but it is aggravted by Pakistan. What about you, you blame everything on India.


That's rich, really rich. Indian media is example of how untrue that is. So far, nobody has "accepted the problem", it's been blamed on Pakistan throughout.

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## Hulk

PAFAce said:


> Unbelievable. What can one do when a billion people are in denial of clear facts. They will pick and choose what to believe, and then believe it without a shred of evidence. This same guy, had he uttered a word against Indian occupation, would have been ridiculed and dismissed.
> 
> Kashmiris don't want freedom from Indian occupation? Says who? The occupiers themselves, and nobody else but them. Like AM has said so many times, if its that unanimous, what's stopping the government from having a free and fair, monitored by the UN, plebiscite?



A Pakistani talking about nation in denial mode, atleast we accept the problem is there but it is aggravted by Pakistan. What about you, you blame everything on India.

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## Spring Onion

mrwarrior006 said:


> pakistan wants kashmir so tat it can have water resources in its control and not oly tat its strategic gain and free movement b/w pakistan and china
> 
> it really doesnt care kashmirs value
> 
> wat was more shocking when tey ceded it to china(gift is wat tey call ridiculos man) and tey say tey care for kashmiris



And currently India is diverting all the power generated from Kashmiri rivers to the bhartayas not given to Kashmiris.

Anyway that another debate.

*
Pakistan has agreed to three options.*
*
1. If Kashmiris want to join India? we will accept it.

2. If Kashmiris want to join Pakistan, we will accept it.

3. If Kashmiris want to have an independent Kashmir, we will accept it.
*

*Now Indians should come up with a free and fair referendum under UN and neutral observers to determine one of the above options.*


Now its all about Indian terrorism in Kashmir and no one else.

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## Spring Onion

god said:


> how on earth does *kashmir being a disputed territory* gives pakistan right to do what ever it like? And if pakistan considers it to be their right it is the right time to make some investments in pakistan also and hell ya we have enough money to return the favor more than what pakistan would have invested.



Its Kashmiris not Pakistan. It gives every right to Kashmiris to cross over to their own territory and do whatever they want to do in their own land.

BTW what right did you have to meddle and do terrorism in East Pakistan ???


You better use that money to quell Naxalism


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## abbasniazi

His statement suggests that all the people leading kashmir movement are traitors and only bilal lone is a saint.

Mr. ssheppard, as u believe in his statements authenticity i believe its easy to bribe one man and produce one such interview then bribing hundreds, and if i take your point than as Brother Asim Aquil said a "job well done by pakistan" as pakistan has the balls to control kashmiris across the border with meager funds, whereas india with all its economic might couldn't offer more to them and convince them to propagate indian nationalism.

For heaven's sake be wise...


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## Iggy

Jana said:


> Its Kashmiris not Pakistan. It gives every right to Kashmiris to cross over to their own territory and do whatever they want to do in their own land.
> 
> BTW what right did you have to meddle and do terrorism in East Pakistan ???
> 
> 
> You better use that money to quell Naxalism



Yes they all are Kashmiri..Two months ago 3 of the terrorists killed by the force were from Kerala..the funny thing is one was a Christian and he converted to Islam and went for training in Pakistan ..Three of these guys are most wanted in police list for extortion,rape you name it..these guys went there for money..their family didnt even accept their bodies yet..They obviously went for money..The terrorsit who banglasdesh caught and send to India is giving shocking relavations of how terrorists recruting thugs and other criminals for terrorism..Its beyong religion now..They work for money now..so much for Kahmiri peoples freedom movement 

And Jana if I were you i probably look in to my own country before preaching about others internal problems

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## Spring Onion

seiko said:


> Yes they all are Kashmiri..T*wo months ago 3 of the terrorists killed by the force were from Kerala..the funny thing is one was a Christian and he converted to Islam and went for training in Pakistan .*.Three of these guys are most wanted in police list for extortion,rape you name it..these guys went there for money..their family didnt even accept their bodies yet..They obviously went for money..




*Ahh yes you reminded me. The poor youth from Kerala were killed in yet another fake encounter by Indians in Held Kashmir.
* 

This more than a shame seiko. 

Just imagine if Indians started fighting in Held Kashmir against Indain occupying Army then what will be the situation.




> The terrorsit who banglasdesh caught and send to India is giving shocking relavations of how terrorists recruting thugs and other criminals for terrorism..Its beyong religion now..They work for money now..so much for Kahmiri peoples freedom movement




Ahh classical example of misleading the readers. Those arrested in Bangladesh belong to ULFA and active in Indian North East and Not in Kashmir.


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## Iggy

Jana said:


> *Ahh yes you reminded me. The poor youth from Kerala were killed in yet another fake encounter by Indians in Held Kashmir.*
> 
> This more than a shame seiko.
> 
> Just imagine if Indians started fighting in Held Kashmir against Indain occupying Army then what will be the situation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ahh classical example of misleading the readers. Those arrested in Bangladesh belong to ULFA and active in Indian North East and Not in Kashmir.



 that was classic Jana..those poor youths were most wanted in Kerala police list ...and what were they doing in Kashmir with Guns?? 
and I didt know that Thadiantavida Nazeer was an Assamee ..Jana dont try to mislead the readers here..he is a pure malayalee and he was the one who recruited those guys and those guys who fight was just for money not for any religion..He is now in Kerala and authorities are questionong him and he is spilling out all the information and major arrests are going on here against the anti-society criminals

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## Red Dwarf

seiko said:


> that was classic Jana..those poor youths were most wanted in Kerala police list ...and what were they doing in Kashmir with Guns??
> and I didt know that Thadiantavida Nazeer was an Assamee ..Jana dont try to mislead the readers here..he is a pure malayalee and he was the one who recruited those guys and those guys who fight was just for money not for any religion..He is now in Kerala for investigation and he is spilling out all the information and major arrests are going on here against the anti-society criminals



Yes Jana what he said is true. Admit it.


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## deckingraj

> His statement suggests that all the people leading kashmir movement are traitors and only bilal lone is a saint.


I don't know whose statements are you referring to but in case his/her posts give that feeling then it is wrong...No one is a traitor here....They are fellow indians who have concerns(some legitimate) and are using dialogue as a mode of communication... 



> Mr. ssheppard, as u believe in his statements authenticity i believe its easy to bribe one man and produce one such interview then bribing hundreds,


You are right that it is easy to bribe one person than many however it is super easy to bribe(read provide financial aid) to people who are representing your /similar POV across the border...If GOI could have bribed them then we could have solved the issue(atleast on our side) way back since you yourself know about Indian economic might....



> and if i take your point than as Brother Asim Aquil said a "job well done by pakistan" as pakistan has the balls to control kashmiris across the border with meager funds, whereas india with all its economic might couldn't offer more to them and convince them to propagate indian nationalism.



It's not a matter of balls...Aren't three and half wars enough to find out about the balls??? It is not a matter of propagating Indian Nationalism...No one can deny the Kashmiri's have some dissent about GOI which is being exploited by politicians...However that dissent is often exagerrated by our friends in Pakistan because of obvious reasons and shown lesser than what it is on Indian side(though things changed after introduction of private media)...As far as hurriyat is concerned they will loose their already diminishing support for good once the issue is resolved..so now you can very well understand about their inclination to give fire to anti-india sentiments on Pakistan pay-roll or pro-India slogans on Indian pay-roll...



> For heaven's sake be wise...



Coin has two sides my friend....

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## Bas_tum_Pak

May last 30 south of the district in Shopian river neelopher John and 22-year-old 17 sister of her were found dead. A local Chief Minister said that this incident was the accident, told the local people that they were accused of sexual abuse forces killed after. so severe protest & wave of transportation strikes Started afterwards.Then on the government level it was confirmed as the sexual abuse and murder case.

Indian Central Investigation Dept.The CBI Said that
*"In last may in the southern Kashmir district in Shopian two women raped and killed the alleged matter of false and two women drowned in the river to be killed is just an accident"*

BBC Urdu - News

So what about Postmortem report? Is that was False?


-CBI will say after some time that Blood of 80 Thousand Kashmiris is Dummy

and Afterwards
-CBI will say Presence of More then Half Million Indian soldiers is just an Incident.


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## Hulk

Bas_tum_Pak said:


> May last 30 south of the district in Shopian river neelopher John and 22-year-old 17 sister of her were found dead. A local Chief Minister said that this incident was the accident, told the local people that they were accused of sexual abuse forces killed after. so severe protest & wave of transportation strikes Started afterwards.Then on the government level it was confirmed as the sexual abuse and murder case.
> 
> Indian Central Investigation Dept.The CBI Said that
> *"In last may in the southern Kashmir district in Shopian two women raped and killed the alleged matter of false and two women drowned in the river to be killed is just an accident"*
> 
> BBC Urdu - News
> 
> So what about Postmortem report? Is that was False?
> 
> 
> -CBI will say after some time that Blood of 80 Thousand Kashmiris is Dummy
> 
> and Afterwards
> -CBI will say Presence of More then Half Million Indian soldiers is just an Incident.



The report that postmortem report was given under public pressure was a news some 15 days ago.


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## Bas_tum_Pak

indianrabbit said:


> The report that postmortem report was given under public pressure was a news some 15 days ago.



oho
*Then we are waiting for the day when Freedom of Kashmir will be given by Govt of India under "Public Pressure"*

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## Gazzi

Just another farce and reason why Kashmiris do not want to live as part of India, hence why India to this day has not allowed Independant outside observers or investigators to investigate genocides and war crimes by India. This just shows the coverup approach of India in another attempt to attack minorities. 

I wonder what the kashmiris must be going through in this critical time of holocaust they are suffering


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## Spitfighter

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Can the Indian security forces bring back to life the tens of thousands tortured and massacred by them and buried in mass graves?
> 
> Let me know how that works out.
> 
> The real 'pity' is that Indian continues to occupy the territory and deny the Kashmiris the right to self determination as promised in the UNSC resolutions and accepted by India.



Can Pakistan bring back the tens of thousands tortured and massacred by its so called 'non state actors'? 

Let me know when that happens, in the mean time I think you should get off your high horse ASAP.

There is no occupation AM. If Pakistan is hell bent on a plebiscite then it should go ahead and hold one on its side of the border. 

Pakistan does not speak for Kashmir or Kashmiris.

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## PAFAce

Spitfighter said:


> There is no occupation AM. If Pakistan is hell bent on a plebiscite then it should go ahead and hold one on its side of the border.
> 
> Pakistan does not speak for Kashmir or Kashmiris.


When the Kashmiris speak for themselves, you call them traitors and terrorists. When they hold mass rallies, you call them riots. When they protest, you arrest them. When all else fails, they pick up the gun, and you refuse to acknowledge that they are freedom fighters.

Clearly, under these circumstances, Pakistan has every right to stand up speak on behalf of the Kashmiris and Kashmir, those who were conned into Indian Occupation when Pakistan was created. Heck, if it weren't for us, who knows how far India would have gone in Kashmir? Probably would have put Israel to shame. The minds of the Kashmiris on this side of the border was made when they decided to join this federation, you still haven't allowed the ones on your side basic human and civil rights. Living like prisoners on their own soil, that my friend, is Occupation 101.

We're not on any high horses, you're the ones living in la-la land. You can't solve any problems when you fail to recognize their existence.


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## Iggy

PAFAce said:


> When the Kashmiris speak for themselves, you call them traitors and terrorists. When they hold mass rallies, you call them riots. When they protest, you arrest them. When all else fails, they pick up the gun, and you refuse to acknowledge that they are freedom fighters.
> 
> Clearly, under these circumstances, Pakistan has every right to speak on behalf of the Kashmiris and Kashmir. The minds of the Kashmiris on this side of the border was made when they decided to join this federation, you still haven't allowed the ones on your side basic human and civil rights. Living like prisoners on their own soil, that my friend, is Occupation 101.
> 
> We're not on any high horses, you're the ones living in la-la land.




I agree with Kasmiri can talk for them selves ..But how can you justify recruiting in the name of religion and sending them to kill by your so called non-state actors across the broder sir??Now its more like some others war than Kasmiries war...and those who took the gun also killed the Kashmiries ..and also can you justify the attacks on Kashmiri pundits sir??Every body is saying about Hindu fanatics..what happnend to Kashmiri pundits is not mentioned anywhere?are they not Kashmiries?or are their life expendable because they are Hindus??

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## EjazR

*Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - Report indicts 13 for fabricating evidence*

*Ishfaq Tantry*
Srinagar, Dec 14: The premier investigating agency, the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI), which filed its report before the High Court Monday, has chargesheeted 13 persons in the Shopian case, involving the alleged rape and murder of two women, Asiya and Neelofer.

The thirteen persons chargesheet before CJM Srinagar include six doctors, five lawyers from Shopian, including Shopian Bar president, and two civilians. Interestingly, the agency has brought no charges against the four cops who were earlier arrested by the Special Investigation Team (SIT) on July 15.

The CBI, which took over the investigation from the SIT on September 17 into the alleged Shopian rape and murder case, has now finalized its investigation, terming the Shopian case as a case of drowning. Talking to the mediapersons, CBI counsel Anil Bhan, advocate, who earlier represented the agency in the court, told Rising Kashmir: The CBI has finalized its investigation. It is a case of drowning. It is neither a case of rape nor murder. The CBI has chargesheeted 13 persons for fabrication of the evidence, adding the chargesheet was presented before the CJM Srinagar on December 10 by the CBI.

Earlier, talking to the mediapersons, CBI chief investigating officer Sanjay said,

We have charged 13 persons, which include six doctors, five lawyers and two civilians.

When asked why CBI filed its chargesheet in Srinagar and not Shopian, he said, CJM Srinagar is the notified court for the CBI cases in Kashmir Valley, that is why we filed the chargesheet in CJM Court Srinagar.

The 13 persons chargesheeted by the CBI include Dr Nighat Shaheen, Dr Ghulam Qadir Sofi, Dr Mohd Maqbool Mir, Dr Ghulam Mohammad Paul, Dr Bilal Ahmad Dalal, Dr Nazia Hassan, advocates Dr Abdul Majid Mir (Shopian Bar president), Mushtaq Ahmad Gattoo (Public prosecutor), Mohd Yousuf Bhat, Mohd Altaf, Sheikh Mubarak, besides Ali Mohammad Sheikh (civilian) and Zahoor Ahmad Ahanger (Shakeel's brother).

In the 66-page chargesheet prepared by the CBI, it has been submitted as regards the findings of the exhumation carried out by the AIIMS doctors on September 28,

After examining the aforesaid samples, the Board of Directors of AIIMS, New Delhi forwarded their opinion, including the findings of the CFSL, New Delhi vide their opinion No. CL.For.Med.22/2009 dated 15.11.2009 which is as under....

The charge sheet further reads, In view of the above findings, we are of the considered opinion that the cause of death in the case of Asiya was due to asphyxia, as a result of ante-mortem drowning. The lacerated wound on the forehead could be produced by blunt force/striking head against the hard surface and was not sufficient to cause death in ordinary course of nature. There was nothing suggestive of penetration of penis or like object through the hymen opening as the hymen was found intact.

Drawing their conclusion in case of Neelofer, the Board adds, in view of the findings, we are of the considered opinion that the cause of death in this case was due to asphyxia as a result of ante-mortem drowning. There were no external ante-mortem injuries on the body.
In section 16.16.13.6, the charge sheet, while giving clean chit to the police officers, adds: The call detail records of the mobile phones used by the suspected police officers were checked and verified from all angles but nothing adverse was found. Hence the investigation has revealed that the four arrested police officers were not involved in any manner with this incident.

The charge sheet adds, the investigation has revealed that the six doctors mentioned such false facts in their different post-mortem reports which supported the theory of rape and murder of the deceased ladies, whereas it has been conclusively proved by the findings of the AIIMS/CFSL that the deceased ladies had died due to ante-mortem drowning, besides these being no evidence to support any attempt to rape."

The charge sheet adds, similarly, the five accused advocates induced, assaulted and threatened the witnesses to make false statements implicating the police, troops in a false case of rape and murder of the two deceased in order to defame, discredit and cause injury to the personnel of the police/security forces and get them wrongfully convicted for capital offence.

Further, the charge sheet adds: "Thus the accused have committed offences under section 120-B, 167, 193, 194, 195 A RPC and substantive offences under section 167, 193, 194 and 195 A RPC. It is therefore prayed that the accused persons named above may be summoned and tried according to the law.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

indianrabbit said:


> What is wrong is that they create fake issue to build anti India sentiments. This explains why everything that happens in J&K gets hyped. Easier for us to defend now, thats all.



And perhaps some of the politicians elected under elections held by India create a 'fake impression' that Kashmiris want to be a part of India, since they are effectively under 'India's payroll'.

Why is it alright for India to 'pay' pro-India Kashmiris as legislators and it is not alright for Pakistan to pay the parties that advocate for an end to Indian occupation and an implementation of the UNSC resolutions that India, Pakistan and the world committed to until India reneged on its commitment?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Halaku Khan said:


> Now that you have been caught, trying to brazen it out?
> 
> If there is nothing wrong with Hurriyat being on payroll of Pakistan, then why did you not make it public before you were exposed in the media?



Perhaps we kept it low key because we did not want the people we were supporting to be tortured, massacred and buried in mass graves by Indian security forces like the tens of thousands of others.

But whatever the reason for keeping it 'low key', that does not answer my query of why not, given that India keeps certain 'leaders' on its payroll?


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## EjazR

Jana said:


> *
> Pakistan has agreed to three options.*
> *
> 1. If Kashmiris want to join India? we will accept it.
> 
> 2. If Kashmiris want to join Pakistan, we will accept it.
> 
> 3. If Kashmiris want to have an independent Kashmir, we will accept it.
> *
> 
> *Now Indians should come up with a free and fair referendum under UN and neutral observers to determine one of the above options.*
> 
> 
> Now its all about Indian terrorism in Kashmir and no one else.



Jana, unfortuantely you don't speak for the establishment and GoP who have clearly stated their opposition to an independant J&K state. One of the reasons why India and Pakistan are the only two options on the UNSC resolutions.

The plebescite is a dead horse if you follow the ground realities. Why doesn't Pakistan come up with a free and fair referendum on its side of Kashmir to put moral pressure on India to do the same? We all know that it was only this year people of Gilgit Baltistan actually got a chance to vote.

The only solution is negotiated settlement, keeping in mind the aspirations of the Kashmiris

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## EjazR

I don't see why PDP and Mehbooba mufti should be considered "traitors" really. Sure she is a pain and has fiery anti-establishment drive but she heads a *mainstream party that works within the Indian constitution*. They have every right to present their point of view no matter how unplatable and illogical it may be at times.

I think she has been one of the main reasons why the sepratists have been marginalised even more as she has taking most of their talking points about injustice e.t.c. and actually delievered on them gaining people's confidence.

When NC dominated local politics, they eventaully turned corrupt and complacent instead of working for the people. A strong local opposition keeps them on their heels and ensures better governance and just development int he long run. Moreover, PDP has actually done a service by undercutting sepratist support in the long run.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Panditji said:


> Yeah, it's never a big deal when somebody unmasks the nefarious designs of Pakistan meddling in and actively abetting violence against innocent civilians in other countries. Only if it happens the other way round it should be a big deal, right?



The only 'nefarious' design here is the Indian state continuing to occupy a people and their land and refusing to allow a free and fair plebiscite under which Kashmiris (either in the entire state or various formulations that have been suggested) could choose which nation they wish to be a part of.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

seiko said:


> I agree with Kasmiri can talk for them selves ..But how can you justify recruiting in the name of religion and sending them to kill by your so called non-state actors across the broder sir??Now its more like some others war than Kasmiries war...and those who took the gun also killed the Kashmiries ..and also can you justify the attacks on Kashmiri pundits sir??Every body is saying about Hindu fanatics..what happnend to Kashmiri pundits is not mentioned anywhere?are they not Kashmiries?or are their life expendable because they are Hindus??



How can you justify using hundreds of thousands of Indian Army and paramilitary forces to occupy and control J&K? Let them choose which nation they wish to be a part of under a free and fair plebiscite.


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## brahmastra

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How can you justify using hundreds of thousands of Indian Army and paramilitary forces to occupy and control J&K? Let them choose which nation they wish to be a part of under a free and fair plebiscite.



how can you justify the people of India killed by the pakistan backed terrorists?we will let them choose which country they wish to be a part of once they get out the the pakistan backed separatist.


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## EjazR

*Hurriyat closes ranks after Qureshi attack, dialogue move gets boost*

The attack on veteran separatist Fazal Haq Qureshi may have come as a sobering reminder to the Hurriyat moderates about the likely repercussions of their decision to hold talks with the Centre, but less than 10 days after the incident, the Hurriyat seems to be more positioned than ever to continue the dialogue process. And this time armed with a degree of moral high ground.

The Hurriyat, which was earlier split over internal differences over the &#8220;secret nature&#8221; of the engagement with New Delhi &#8212; with some leaders arguing it sowed suspicions among people &#8212; has closed ranks and resolved to get on with the dialogue.

Hurriyat chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq was quick to reiterate his commitment to continuing the dialogue soon after the Qureshi attack, stating that there was &#8220;no other option&#8221; but to &#8220;carry on talks with New Delhi and Pakistan&#8221;.

Qureshi&#8217;s own party, the People&#8217;s Political Front, has also come out strongly in favour of the talks. Senior PPF leader Musadiq Adil has said his party would not be &#8220;overawed and unnerved by the inhuman physical assault&#8221;.

&#8220;Those looking upon dialogue as a sellout are, in fact, demonstrating their intellectual bankruptcy and lack of confidence and vision,&#8221; Adil said.

*In fact, Adil has turned around and accused separatist hardliners of &#8220;selling out&#8221;. In an oblique reference to Hurriyat hawk Syed Ali Shah Geelani, he said that those against the talks had contested polls and taken oath on the Constitution in the 1980s when Qureshi was languishing in jail for his separatist beliefs. &#8220;The PPF leadership has never compromised on its beliefs. Everyone knows when we were sent to jails and deprived of our government jobs, some people were contesting elections and taking oath on the Indian Constitution. Now the same people are accusing us of selling out,&#8221; Adil said.*

*Significantly, the attack on Qureshi has somewhat undermined the appeal of the hardliners. Their belligerent rhetoric has begun to ring hollow and their margin to run down the dialogue narrowed. In fact, Geelani has condemned the attack and has since said that the moderates are free to talk to the Centre even though he himself remains ideologically against such a move as &#8220;our stand is that 130 rounds of such dialogue haven&#8217;t achieved anything&#8221;.*

The stage, for now, seems set for a new round of engagement between the Centre and Hurriyat. Leveraged by public sympathy over the attack, the doves have been momentarily able to fend off the political challenge from hawks. The ball is now in the Centre&#8217;s court. For, it won&#8217;t be long before this window of opportunity closes again.


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## Halaku Khan

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Perhaps we kept it low key because we did not want the people we were supporting to be tortured, massacred and buried in mass graves by Indian security forces like the tens of thousands of others.
> 
> But whatever the reason for keeping it 'low key', that does not answer my query of why not, given that India keeps certain 'leaders' on its payroll?



If Indian wanted to get rid of the Hurriyat, it could be done very easily. But that's not the way India functions.

The real reason why it is kept hidden is this - If it were to become widely known that some-one is on Pakistani payroll, they would lose all credibility in the eyes of the people of Jammu-Kashmir.

Not surprisingly, some Hurriyat people are trying to save face before the people. From the original article:



> Meanwhile senior Hurriyat Leader Moulvi Abbas Ansari rubbished Bilal Lone's claims and termed the allegation as absolutely false.
> 
> Reacting on Lone's claims Ansari said, "I have no clue what Bilal has said. It is completely false.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Halaku Khan said:


> The reason why it is kept hidden is this - If it were to become widely known that some-one is on Pakistani payroll, they would lose all credibility in the eyes of the people of Jammu-Kashmir.



Not a good reason - for years, accurately or not, Indians, Pakistanis and Kashmiris have taken as fact that Pakistan was supporting both separatist political leaders (as in this case) as well as insurgents fighting Indian security forces.

Therefore it makes little difference if someone openly accepts this fact now. The insistence of exclusively 'moral support' were for international consumption alone (which in any case no one bought).


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## rajeev

EjazR said:


> *Hurriyat closes ranks after Qureshi attack, dialogue move gets boost*
> 
> The attack on veteran separatist Fazal Haq Qureshi may have come as a sobering reminder to the Hurriyat moderates about the likely repercussions of their decision to hold talks with the Centre, but less than 10 days after the incident, the Hurriyat seems to be more positioned than ever to continue the dialogue process. And this time armed with a degree of moral high ground.
> 
> The Hurriyat, which was earlier split over internal differences over the secret nature of the engagement with New Delhi  with some leaders arguing it sowed suspicions among people  has closed ranks and resolved to get on with the dialogue.
> 
> Hurriyat chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq was quick to reiterate his commitment to continuing the dialogue soon after the Qureshi attack, stating that there was no other option but to carry on talks with New Delhi and Pakistan.
> 
> Qureshis own party, the Peoples Political Front, has also come out strongly in favour of the talks. Senior PPF leader Musadiq Adil has said his party would not be overawed and unnerved by the inhuman physical assault.
> 
> Those looking upon dialogue as a sellout are, in fact, demonstrating their intellectual bankruptcy and lack of confidence and vision, Adil said.
> 
> *In fact, Adil has turned around and accused separatist hardliners of selling out. In an oblique reference to Hurriyat hawk Syed Ali Shah Geelani, he said that those against the talks had contested polls and taken oath on the Constitution in the 1980s when Qureshi was languishing in jail for his separatist beliefs. The PPF leadership has never compromised on its beliefs. Everyone knows when we were sent to jails and deprived of our government jobs, some people were contesting elections and taking oath on the Indian Constitution. Now the same people are accusing us of selling out, Adil said.*
> 
> *Significantly, the attack on Qureshi has somewhat undermined the appeal of the hardliners. Their belligerent rhetoric has begun to ring hollow and their margin to run down the dialogue narrowed. In fact, Geelani has condemned the attack and has since said that the moderates are free to talk to the Centre even though he himself remains ideologically against such a move as our stand is that 130 rounds of such dialogue havent achieved anything.*
> 
> The stage, for now, seems set for a new round of engagement between the Centre and Hurriyat. Leveraged by public sympathy over the attack, the doves have been momentarily able to fend off the political challenge from hawks. The ball is now in the Centres court. For, it wont be long before this window of opportunity closes again.



I dont know why GoI is talking to Huriyat. Previously, I thought their concerns are legitimate and have reasons to deal with. Now with the revelation that these are paid Pakistani trolls, why is India negotiating with them? No wonder they stood for any elections as it might be apparent to themselves that they cannot win a popular support.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

brahmastra said:


> how can you justify the people of India killed by the pakistan backed terrorists?we will let them choose which country they wish to be a part of once they get out the the pakistan backed separatist.



Your assertion hardly inspires any confidence given that India made no move to hold a UN officiated plebiscite before the insurgency started in the eighties, and in fact argued in favor of status quo and integration of Kashmir into the Indian constitution.

In other words, a blatant lie given past Indian behavior to the contrary when there was no insurgency.

So again, how can you justify continued occupation of the Kashmiris and their land by hundreds of thousands of Indian troops that deny them the right to self determination, after insisting and promising for years that you would give them that right?


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## EjazR

*Moderates, hardliners are poles apart*
Firdous Syed



> Revolution eats its own children; assassination bid on senior separatist leader Fazal Haq Qureshi has proved this axiom right, beyond any doubt. Fazal Haq is fortunate; he survived attempt on his life, several other high profile separatist leaders were not so lucky. In the bedlam of past twenty years, Mirwiaz Molvi Farooq, Abdul Ghani Lone, Majid Dar and many others had to pay with their lives, merely for aspiring for a peaceful solution of Kashmir problem. Pakistan-backed militant organisations have always tried to scuttle any peace move between Srinagar and New Delhi.
> 
> Until now most of the time, enemies of the peace process have succeeded in destroying the prospects of peace. (Of course, New Delhi is also to be blamed for failure of repeated peace-making efforts, but that is a different story.) Attack on Qureshi has added a new twist to badly entangled separatist politics. This indicates growing frustrations within pro-Pak groups; militancy also has taken a turn for the worst.
> 
> On May 1990, Mirwiaz Molvi Farooq was killed by militants belonging to most radical cell of Hizbul Mujahideen, led by Abdullah Bangru. They even issued a press note owning the responsibility; Molvi Farooq father of present Mirwiaz Umar Farooq was never considered a separatist leader. The group withdrew the responsibility claim only after security forces went berserk; CRPF stationed at Islamia College without any provocation opened fire on the funeral procession. Dozens of Molvi&#8217;s supporters died in the indiscriminate firing. Late Mirwiaz who was pleading with the then Governor Jagmohan to take him into protective custody turned out to be a martyr, solely due to a mad act of CRPF. In a strange coincidence Abdul Ghani Lone was also killed while attending the death anniversary of Mirwiaz Farooq on 2002. Pro-Pak militant groups killed Ghani Lone; seemingly he had opened channels with Vajpayee&#8217;s government and was secretly talking with Brijesh Mishra. On March 2003, Majid Dar was also killed, perhaps by militants of his own organisation Hizbul Mujahideen. Molvi Farooq was more of a politician than a cleric; Ghani Lone had contested many elections and remained a minister in Mir Qasim&#8217;s cabinet. Lone joined the separatist ranks during the peak of militancy only after he was put into jail by the myopic administration under Jagmohan for harbouring JKLF militants. Among the three only Majid Dar was considered to be a hard-core separatist. But he had defied Hizb chief Syed Salah-ud-din. On July 2000, Dar had initiated a peace process with the Government of India. On August 3, a high level team of the Government of India headed by then Union Home Secretary Kamal Pande met publicly Hizb commanders in Srinagar, Fazal Haq Qureshi was leading the delegation.
> 
> More than frustration of militants who any way want to destroy every peace-making effort, it is a typical case of pupil becoming more ideological than the ideologue himself. In protracted conflicts more the new generations get sucked into the struggle, more they become radicalised. This is not unique with Kashmir; generation after Yasser Arafat in Palestine is much more radicalised. Hamas is completely a different entity in comparison to Fatah.
> 
> 
> 
> The two factions of Hurriyat differ on many issues; this is the first time they have acrimoniously taken an open stand against each other. Fiery public spat has widened the gulf between moderates and hardliners; they seem to be poles apart today.
> 
> As of today, Mirwaiz has taken a bold stand, &#8220;we will not be cowed down by such attacks.&#8221; Putting all his weight behind the talks he further said, &#8220;whenever there was some progress in sight towards the resolution of the Kashmir issue through peaceful means, certain individuals and agencies having a vested interest in political instability got unnerved and resorted to such dastardly acts to thwart the process.&#8221; Moderates have burned their boats; the ball is clearly in Delhi&#8217;s court. If peace process this time again fails to make any headway, moderates will be completely obliterated in Kashmir. This will leave the field wide open for Geelani, who already occupies much of the separatist space in the valley.


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## rajeev

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *Not a good reason - for years, accurately or not, Indians, Pakistanis and Kashmiris have taken as fact that Pakistan was supporting both separatist political leaders (as in this case) as well as insurgents fighting Indian security forces.*
> 
> Therefore it makes little difference if someone openly accepts this fact now. The insistence of exclusively 'moral support' were for international consumption alone (which in any case no one bought).



You mean to say that you were aware of the fact Pakistan was not just sponsoring terrorists in India, but also paying Huriyat. Apparently, most Pakistanis here in this forum and all Indians thought of them as a separatist movements. It clearly shows why they were flying Pakistani flag out there and there goes your theory of overwhelming preference of Kashmiris to join Pakistan. 

I have a lot of respect for you and you always talked about being in higher moral ground, but when you are now turning around and saying that these are known facts - it makes me really disbelieve. Are you talking of same Pakistan which you previously was abused by India and wrongly alleging of supporting terrorists in India, wrongly blaming for causing political tensions in Kashmir? 

How can you even argue on this point? This is clear and shut case of what drama was going on. No wonder this Huriyat contested elections because they apparently know they would have to reveal their income sources. This negates any activity of popular support as per your claim and clearly shows who is instigating these issues.

You had previously posted a video link of terrorist wanted in Pakistan claiming that India is funding him. Your Rehman Malik claimed having all the evidence but cant show it in public. It is same Rehman Malik who never knew of drone attacks permitted by GoP and it is same Rehman Malik who dont recall negotiating with America for allowing Blackwater in. Other than wide ranging claims of India helping insurgents there is no shred of evidence provided.

But here are the things clearly proved:
* Pakistan supported and funded militants in India.
* Pakistan also paid Kashmir so-called thugs (Huriyat)
* Pakistanis attacking India on regular basis - Mumbai, Parliment, Agra, Jaipuar, Mumbai train attacks ,.....
* Pakistan attacked India in 1965 for no apparent reason.
* Pakistan apparently attacked just under a month of "friendship bus" in Kargil.
* Pakistan blaiming India for funding TTP. Funny that they have the evidence but nothing can be proven. Yes, they found a bag of ammonium nitrate from Vaghai Industries whereas a consignment of few tons from Pakistan was unloaded in Calcutta.

Unfortunately, India with size, economic strength, military strength and population has achieved virtually nothing. A country that is hell bent on destroying and damaging India and Indian government just watching it.


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## EjazR

All Parties Hurriyat Conference is an umbrella organisation. Not just one party. It consists of multiple big and small parties mostly moderates some hardliners.

Not all were taking money and some were sincirely thinking that what they were doing is right. Hence it makes sense to talk to those Hurriyat party leaders who want to talk. No one is talking to Geelani and neither does he want anyone to talk to Delhi. So if talks are irking Geelani, obviously GoI is doing something right.


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## Halaku Khan

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Perhaps we kept it low key because we did not want the people we were supporting to be tortured, massacred and buried in mass graves by Indian security forces like the tens of thousands of others.



In fact, India goes to great lengths to keep the aged Syed Ali Gilani alive, making sure he gets the best treatment in hospitals in Delhi and Srinagar.

He keeps harping on unification with Pakistan, and imposition of Sharia Law. That serves as a useful reminder to the people about the nightmare of Talibanization that they will descend into, should the separatists get their way.


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## Spitfighter

PAFAce said:


> When the Kashmiris speak for themselves, you call them traitors and terrorists. When they hold mass rallies, you call them riots. When they protest, you arrest them. When all else fails, they pick up the gun, and you refuse to acknowledge that they are freedom fighters.



1. The GoI is involved in talks with every major political party in Kashmir, we'll resolve our differences. We don't need Pakistan's input, thanks.
2. AFAIK the government has to sanction a rally, if those 'rallies' (riots) weren't sanctioned, appropriate action was taken to restore order. 
3. Murdering innocent civilians isn't the same as fighting for ones freedom. Gandhi and Bose aren't in the same league as Osama and the LeT



> Clearly, under these circumstances, Pakistan has every right to stand up speak on behalf of the Kashmiris and Kashmir



Wrong, Pakistan needs to mind its own business. Kashmir isn't yours and India will make sure that it never will be. Pakistan doesn't have any credibility when it comes to Kashmir. The Balochis complain of mistreatment, perhaps the GoI should advocate for their rights no?

How exactly did you conclude that Pakistan has a legitimate stake in Kashmir?



> those who were conned into Indian Occupation when Pakistan was created.



Maybe you were conned into believing that they were conned. Our tribals didn't cause the mess, yours did, Kashmir was invaded in '48 in the name of 'freedom' so I think Pakistan has done enough for the Kashmiris already. Thanks but no thanks.



> Heck, if it weren't for us, who knows how far India would have gone in Kashmir?



If it weren't for you, we wouldn't have had this problem to begin with. 



> Probably would have put Israel to shame.



Israel maybe, Pakistan never. India can never top what the Taliban pulled in Afghanistan with Pakistan's support. Good job there by the way, and here you are talking about human rights 

Did Pakistan ever consider 'human rights' when it was busy establishing strategic depth in Afghanistan? Even today Pakistan does little to nothing against the Afghan Taliban so clearly human rights are the least of your concerns.



> The minds of the Kashmiris on this side of the border was made when they decided to join this federation, you still haven't allowed the ones on your side basic human and civil rights. Living like prisoners on their own soil, that my friend, is Occupation 101.



Oh yeah? how did the Kashmiris 'decide'? when your tribals and army invaded (in the name of freedom of course)? 

There were no cases of brutality in Kashmir before Pakistan spawned an insurgency in the 80's. That my friend is an attempt to grab land.



> We're not on any high horses, you're the ones living in la-la land. You can't solve any problems when you fail to recognize their existence.



Not on high horses, I'll give you that. 

You're just in denial.

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## haawk

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And perhaps some of the politicians elected under elections held by India create a 'fake impression' that Kashmiris want to be a part of India, since they are effectively under 'India's payroll'.
> 
> Why is it alright for India to 'pay' pro-India Kashmiris as legislators and it is not alright for Pakistan to pay the parties that advocate for an end to Indian occupation and an implementation of the UNSC resolutions that India, Pakistan and the world committed to until India reneged on its commitment?



you cannot accept it can you?!!!!!!
second reasoning by you:india pays pro-india kashmiris as legislators?????
these kashmiris believe they are indian and take part in elections......what is your logic here ......

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## Creder

kashmiris dont like you...if it were just a "bunch" of seperatists on pakistani payroll you'd have nothing to worry about...but yeah its your wishful thinking that majority of kashmiris are die hard indian fans ...truth couldnt be farther away... its not our fault you wanna live in a dreamworld created.


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## Creder

these people have been denied basic human rights for over half a century, if helping them stand up for their rights puts them on our payroll..we'd be more than obliged to do so

AFP: Conflict-weary Kashmir marks 20 yrs of insurgency

AFP: Conflict-weary Kashmir marks 20 yrs of insurgency


AFP: Conflict-weary Kashmir marks 20 yrs of insurgency


AFP: Conflict-weary Kashmir marks 20 yrs of insurgency


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## Valiant_Soul

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The only 'nefarious' design here is the Indian state continuing to occupy a people and their land and refusing to allow a free and fair plebiscite under which Kashmiris (either in the entire state or various formulations that have been suggested) could choose which nation they wish to be a part of.



The land belongs to the nation. If people living there want to be citizen of some other nation, they are free to move out or they are free to settle here and call it their home.

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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I'm sorry, but what exactly is wrong with Pakistan funding the parties that argue against Indian occupation of disputed territory that Pakistan claims as well?


You mean besides making it apparent that the so called 'popular' sentiment is actually a result of incitement by Pakistan and therefore, in reality, it is not a 'people's' movement, but merely a ruse to achieve Pakistan's irredentist ambitions, altogether putting an enormous question mark on the claim of 'spontaneity' of the so called 'Kashmir freedom struggle'; on the 'legitimacy' of any movement that calls for accession to Pakistan, or even independence; on the 'free and fairness' of any plebiscite if held (and thus validating India's stand); on the credibility of the leaders (who, although claim to be representative of people of Kashmir, are in reality, representative of Pakistan).

Nope, there is nothing wrong. Everything is hunky-dory. Its business as usual.

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## toxic_pus

PAFAce said:


> When the *Kashmiris speak for themselves*, you call them traitors and terrorists. When they hold mass rallies, you call them riots. When they protest, you arrest them. When all else fails, they pick up the gun, and you refuse to acknowledge that *they are freedom fighters*.


If that useful idiots claim is indeed true, then these claims become a sackful of bugpoo.

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## god

I think our stand should be clear. if these guys wanna talk we should call them on negotiation table but the use of stones should be replied with gun shots. 

Anyways when the people are on Pakistan payroll i dont think that we are not short of people who would be ready to work on Indian pay roll. what you sow is what you reap


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## PAFAce

Spitfighter said:


> Not on high horses, I'll give you that.
> 
> You're just in denial.


Hence, we should conclude that the Kashmir issue is Pakistan's doing, right? I mean, the massive civilian demand for freedom is all Pakistan's doing, it's only been a problem since our state sponsored terrorists began the insurgency in the 1980s. Before that, all was fine and dandy when you were left alone with your whips and the poor Kashmiri populace.

Nice try to compare the Afghanistan situation. It's something I see often amongst the desperate ones. Historical facts, it seems, are second to nationalism in their books. But guess what, nobody's buying what you're selling. We were never in violation of any UN resolutions, like you are in Kashmir and Israel is in Palestine. Peas in a pod, really, Israel and India; trying to teach us about human rights. And we're the ones on the high horse? It makes me wonder how fortunate the Kashmiris are to have a country with a spine to stand up to their oppressors right next door, unlike the poor Palestinians.

Kashmir is our issue as much as it is yours, you may not like that, but I think after 60+ years, you probably realise you can't really do much about it. We'll stand up for them, as we have for the last six decades, if you don't like it, go ahead, try us. Kashmir does not belong to Pakistan, it doesn't belong to the Indians either, it belongs to the very Kashmiris you choose to opress. Tell me I am wrong, go ahead, it doesn't change the ground reality, it doesn't change the fact that even today most kids in Kashmir chant "le ke rahenge, Azadi". But no, according to you, _we_ occupied Kashmir in 1948, it had nothing to do with them wanting the same freedom given to the rest of Pakistan. I'm sure its a popular fairytale in your part of the land.

And we're the ones in denial. Very rich.



god said:


> I think our stand should be clear. if these guys wanna talk we should call them on negotiation table but the use of stones should be replied with gun shots.


That's always been your policy. Like I say, peas in a pod, India and Israel.


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## ssheppard

haawk said:


> it does not matter who reports it here is the vedio link "http://www.timesnow.tv/videoshow/4334246.cms" cant say the guy didnt say what was reported can you?



These buggers have sold their souls to Pakistani Terror machinery....and they are making money like hell....and a normal Kashmiri has to live under threat from Terrorists and Security forces equally......Terrorists come and kill Common man for being an informer...and Security forces come and accuse them of supporting terrorists.

Now that the truth is out ....they are running and hiding there faces....I talked to my friend in Srinagar....he said ....the separatists are running for cover ...they are not willing to face media..and answer the questions..... There masks have been ripped off...and soon you will see these people being thrown out like mad dogs.


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## BlackSonic

Srinagar: Following Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) report giving clean chit to the four accused policemen in the Shopian rape and double murder case, a local group Majlis Mashawarat and the victim families have called for a bandh in Kashmir on Tuesday as a mark of protest.

The CBI has ruled that the two women whose bodies were found several months ago were neither raped nor murdered. But activists say they are not convinced the women simply drowned.

Shakeel Ahangar, husband of Neelofar and brother of teenaged Asiya Jan, the two women who were reportedly raped and killed burned the CBI report outside the Jammu and Kashmir High Court.

Ahangar and others have been livid at the CBI report that the two girls died due to drowning and there was no evidence of any rape or murder.

The CBI report claimed that the hymen of Asiya was intact when her body was exhumed.

"The two died of drowning. We have filed chargesheet against 13 people including doctors and lawyers for fabricating evidence," CBI counsel Anil Bhan said.

The family and the Majlis committee that has been at the forefront of the agitation have been crying foul. They have been claiming that the two women were raped and murdered allegedly by members of the armed forces in May 2009.

"it was not recovered from the water but from the boulders just lying on the side. We will continue our struggle for the justice. We demand international probe into the matter," Majlis Mashawarat spokesman Mohammad Shafi Khan said.

The Majlis has accused the CBI of subverting truth and said many questions remain unanswered.

Opposition People's Democratic Party, too, said people have lost faith in CBI.

The valley erupted many times over the murder of 22 year-old Neelofar and 17-year old Asiya Jan. A judicial commission had also rejected the rape and murder theory.

Now the CBI report is before the High Court.

For the CBI probing the six-month old incident, the case is clear and stands closed but for the families of the victims the hunt to unravel the truth behind the deaths is far from over.

Majlis, Shopian victims' family protest CBI report


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## Spitfighter

PAFAce said:


> Hence, we should conclude that the Kashmir issue is Pakistan's doing, right? I mean, the massive civilian demand for freedom is all Pakistan's doing, it's only been a problem since our state sponsored terrorists began the insurgency in the 1980s. Before that, all was fine and dandy when you were left alone with your whips and the poor Kashmiri populace.



Were there any large scale riots in Kashmir before the 1980's? Did the Kashmiri's rise up against the 'Indian occupation' in 1965 as the PA had hoped? and if not, why? any ideas?

The military presence in Kashmir is a direct result of Pakistan's policy of state sponsored terrorism. 

Also, in case you haven't read the article, if what it says is true then it is clear that the so called 'popular sentiment' is a farce. Pakistan has played on the emotions of the Kashmiri people for its own ends. 

Can you explain why Pakistan would finance separatist leaders if not to agitate the population and turn them against the GoI?




> Nice try to compare the Afghanistan situation. It's something I see often amongst the desperate ones. Historical facts, it seems, are second to nationalism in their books.



That's funny, I thought you guys were all about granting people their civil rights. You know, things like education, equality, everything the Taliban stands for. 

You needed a reminder friend. Pakistan isn't in this to 'help' the Kashmiris, you want the land for yourself, lets not beat around the bush, its getting real old real fast.



> But guess what, nobody's buying what you're selling. We were never in violation of any UN resolutions, like you are in Kashmir and Israel is in Palestine.



Hmm..lets see..Kargil?! 
1965!? 

Also, Pakistan violated the very same UNSC resolutions you guys like to harp about in '65. 




> Peas in a pod, really. How fortunate the Kashmiris are to have a country with a spine to stand up to their oppressors right next doot, unlike the poor Palestinians.



Haan yara, very fortunate. First, they invade your country in the name of freedom, start a war that they can't finish and perpetuate your misery by pumping in thousands of jihadis who target everything from schools to markets. All in the name of 'Islam' and 'freedom'

Wah! what lions! 

Surprisingly the population couldn't have cared less when the PA invaded in '65. 

Torch bearers of freedom, really. 



> Kashmir is out issue as much as it is yours, you may not like that, but I think after 60+ years, you probably realise you can't really do much about it.



Has Pakistan come to a similar realization? its been 60 years hasn't it? what have they accomplished so far?



> Kashmir does not belong to Pakistan, it doesn't belong to the Indians either,



The maharaja of Kashmir actually ceded the state to India, so it does belong to us.



> it belongs to the very Kashmiris you choose to opress.



Belongs to the Kashmiris too of course, after all they're Indian. 



> Tell me I am wrong, go ahead, it doesn't change the ground reality.



You're wrong. The ground reality is that Kashmir, at least most of the land and population, is part of India. 



> We occupied Kashmir in 1948, it had nothing to do with them wanting the same freedom given to the rest of Pakistan. I'm sure its a popular fairytale in your part of the land.
> 
> And I'm the one in denial. Very rich.



Of course not, if it did, why would those J ahil tribals invade in the first place, or better yet, why did operation Gibraltar fizzle out? and lets not forget Kargil! 

No answers I'm sure. 

Sorry bro but you're still in denial.

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## toxic_pus

First, a posit.


PAFAce said:


> Historical facts, it seems, are second to nationalism in their books.


Followed by the proof:


> We were never in violation of any UN resolutions, like you are in Kashmir...


The Cease Fire clause of Resolution on 13th August, 1948 states:

_The High Commands of Indian and Pakistan forces agreed to refrain from taking any measures that might augment the military potential of the forces under their control in the State of Jammu and Kashmir. (For the purpose of these proposals "forces under their control shall be considered to include all forces, organized and unorganized, fighting or participating in hostilities on their respective sides). _

In 1965, Pakistan merrily, and diligently, broke that clause by invading India in Kashmir.

The Truce Agreement of the same resolution states:

_When the Commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistan nationals referred to in Part II A 2 hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistan forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of their forces from the State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission_

Pakistan, to this date hasn't withdrawn those 'tribesmen and Pakistan nationals'.

So congratulations, for proving your own posit.

Btw, which exact clause did India 'violate'?

The rest of your post is what one would expect when the proverbial sh!t hits the keyboard.


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## afriend

Why do people want to put preassure and influence a death in a way they want..!!! In nithahri killings and another incident in delhi.. in all these places some people jump guns and destroy public property alleging something they percieve and look like fools when the truth come out.


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## Hari

> NEW DELHI: Ever since May, when the bodies of two women washed up near Shopian, journalists have chronicled the multiple failures of administration and policing that allowed the tragic deaths to spark off some of the worst street violence ever seen in Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> Following the release of the findings of the Justice Muzaffar Jan Commission of Enquiry on Friday, the Jammu and Kashmir government has announced that it intends to prosecute four police officials for some of those failures.
> 
> But both journalists and the Jammu and Kashmir government have maintained a stoic silence on one institution blamed by Justice Jan for spreading falsehood and inciting violence: the media itself.
> 
> Stories fabricated?
> 
> 
> Justice Jans report highlights disturbing evidence that some journalists may have fabricated elements of their stories.
> 
> Early in June, several Srinagar-based journalists reported that one victims husband had received a call from her at 7 p.m. on May 29. During the call, the accounts said, the victim reported that she was being chased by CRPF personnel.
> 
> In their testimony to the Jan Commission, though, the victims husband and her brother made it clear that she had never owned a mobile phone, a fact first reported in this newspaper. Jammu and Kashmir police investigators attached to the Commission studied 32,686 cellphone calls made in Shopian on May 29, and were able to establish that none was made to or from any phone that may have been in the victims possession.
> 
> Efforts were also made by sections of the media to suggest that the local police may have sought to hush up the case on the orders of their superior. Journalists in particular turned on Constable Mohammad Yaseen, who was reported to have made several phone calls to superiors even as a search for the victims bodies was underway  evidence, it was argued, of the unusual interest of his bosses in the case.
> 
> In fact, the Commission found, Mr. Yaseen had made only four calls during the whole day and none between 10 p.m. on June 29, when the search for the victims began, until 6 a.m. on June 30, when the bodies were found.
> 
> Local resident Jamal-ud-Din Wani, claimed by the media to be an eyewitness to the killings, was alleged to have been abducted after the bodies were found. The Jan Commission found him living in a tent at the hamlet of Dehgam, close to Shopian, where he works as a watchman at a local seminary.
> 
> For the most part, Justice Jan found, the media misrepresented forensic evidence. Media accounts insisted that both women appeared to have been badly beaten and gang raped. However, the Jan Commission states, pathologists found no evidence to support the proposition of gang rape. Moreover, only one victims body was found to bear visible external injuries. Claims that one victim was pregnant at the time of her death, Justice Jan states, were also wrong.
> 
> Perhaps in order to buttress claims that the two women had been raped before they were killed, some journalists asserted that their clothes were torn. However, witnesses interviewed by the Jan Commission said that the womens Feran and shalwar were intact.
> 
> Most disturbing, though, is Justice Jans finding that the media incited hatred by broadcasting communal propaganda.
> 
> Based on the accounts of individuals claiming to be eyewitnesses, newspapers said that one victims forehead had been smeared with sindoor  an allegation that suggested that the rapists were Hindus, and the rape itself macabre religion-driven hate crime. However, the Commission noted, the red marks on her forehead were in fact blood from a head wound. The flow of blood, the report states, was shamefully distorted and projected as a mark of sindoor.
> 
> Noting that this kind of reporting has fuelled violence in Jammu and Kashmir, Justice Jan has suggested that firm guidelines are made to ensure that, before publication of any news, the authenticity of the news be verified.
> 
> 
> 
> Corrections and Clarifications
> The eighth paragraph of a report "Media misrepresented key facts on Shopian rape-murder" (July 12, 2009) was "In fact, the Commission found, Mr. Yaseen had made only four calls during the whole day and none between 10 p.m. on June 29, when the search for the victims began, and 6 a.m. on June 30, when the bodies were found." The dates are May 29 and May 30.



The Hindu : Front Page : Media misrepresented key facts on Shopian rape-murder

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## Hari

*One of the Shopian victims was a virgin, says autopsy 
*



> SHOPIAN(J&K): In the latest in the series of twists and turns in the alleged Shopian rape and murder case, a forensic probe has found that one
> of the two young victims was a virgin in evidence suggesting the girl may not have been raped.
> 
> A CBI team with the help of a special forensic team comprising doctors from AIIMS and local medicos cam to this conclusion during an on-the-spot examination of the body of Aasiya, one of the two victims whose body was exhumed yesterday at a graveyard in Bonigham in this district.
> 
> The forensic experts have found that Aasiya's hymen was intact, official sources said.
> 
> 17-year-old Aasiya was found dead alongwith her sister-in-law 22-year-old Neelofar in a stream here on May 30.
> 
> The forensic experts shared their finding with the doctors of Mushawarat Majlis-e-Committee, an amalgam which spearheaded the 47-day agitation against the alleged rape and murder of the duo by suspected security personnel, who were present at the site, the sources said.
> 
> A special CBI forensic team on Monday collected samples from the bodies of the two women after exhuming them nearly four months after their burial.
> 
> The team, comprising senior AIIMS doctors, collected a number of samples from the bodies in a process that started at 7 AM and continued for nine hours. The Exhumation was carried out after obtaining necessary approval of the family of the two.
> 
> The CBI team was now trying to ascertain the motive behind the murder or cause of death. The forensic experts believed that some breakthrough was imminent once all the tests were completed, the sources said.
> 
> The team had brought modern equipment that would help determine ante-mortem and post-mortem injuries on the bodies, officials said.
> 
> The bodies of Neelofar and Asiya were recovered from a stream on May 30 after they went missing in town the previous evening.
> 
> Their deaths had led to 47 days of protests in the town with locals alleging that security personnel were responsible for the crime.
> 
> Ahead of the exhumation, a doctor, who was part of the second post-mortem team from neighbouring Pulwama district hospital and had prepared the vaginal slides of the victims, had told CBI that no samples from the duo had ever been taken and the samples for the slides sent to Forensic Laboratory were taken from gloves used in the gynaecological ward of the district hospital.
> 
> The CBI took over the investigation into the case on September 17 and a team headed by Deputy Inspector General Satish Golcha has been camping here since then. The agency's Special Director S C Sinha had also visited the village recently and taken stock of the situation.
> 
> It had come to light last month that the vaginal swabs of the two victims sent to Central Forensic and Scientific Laboratory did not match with that of Neelofar and Aasiya.
> 
> Ahead of the CBI probe, state government had appointed one-man commission headed by Justice (Retd) Muzzafar Jan which among other things had recommended a detailed questioning of the relatives of the victims, including Neelofar's husband Shakeel Ahnger and her brother Zirar Shah.



One of the Shopian victims was a virgin, says autopsy - India - The Times of India


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## Gazzi

Oh oh oh.............I think we have to agree with the Indian CBI as we will be accussed by our Indian brothers of prejudice. I do however, agree that the Indians should also agree with Pakistans investigation with Indian state sponsored terrorism in Pakistan and nearly all its neighbouring countries without reservation also.

I do however, seem baffled that post mortem results before revealed something totally different and now we are being told something else.....this is definately wrong as there CANNOT be two results especially of a sexual nature, it is not possible as I have dealt with post mortems and there is no way you can have two different results.


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## god

Bas_tum_Pak said:


> oho
> *Then we are waiting for the day when Freedom of Kashmir will be given by Govt of India under "Public Pressure"*



1947: "we are waiting for the day when Freedom of Kashmir will be given by Govt of India"

1965: "we are waiting for the day when Freedom of Kashmir will be given by Govt of India"

1971: "we are waiting for the day when Freedom of Kashmir will be given by Govt of India" Oops we lost east Pakistan but still kashmir banega Pakistan

1999: "we are waiting for the day when Freedom of Kashmir will be given by Govt of India"

2009: "we are waiting for the day when Freedom of Kashmir will be given by Govt of India"

This example shows some people are hopelessly hopeful.


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## PlanetWarrior

Gazzi said:


> Oh oh oh.............I think we have to agree with the Indian CBI as we will be accussed by our Indian brothers of prejudice. I do however, agree that the Indians should also agree with Pakistans investigation with Indian state sponsored terrorism in Pakistan and nearly all its neighbouring countries without reservation also.
> 
> I do however, seem baffled that post mortem results before revealed something totally different and now we are being told something else.....this is definately wrong as there CANNOT be two results especially of a sexual nature, it is not possible as I have dealt with post mortems and there is no way you can have two different results.



CBI is the main civil investigations agency for the Indian nation. There were no political connotations attached to the death. Accusations were that the soldiers who allegedly killed these women acted criminally. I still hold the view that an external investigation agency should have been called in to observe the investigations since the matter was so sensitive and there were allegations of bias against the CBI by the Kashmiri Bar Association. A private investigation could still follow and I recall reading something to this effect which was being proposed by the KBA prior to official confirmation of the appointment of the CBI team. Until then the victims should be given the dignity of not making this a politcial issue as it remains a criminal investigation and nothing else.


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## PlanetWarrior

Gazzi said:


> Oh oh oh.............I think we have to agree with the Indian CBI as we will be accussed by our Indian brothers of prejudice. I do however, agree that *the Indians should also agree with Pakistans investigation with Indian state sponsored terrorism in Pakistan and nearly all its neighbouring countries without reservation also.*
> I do however, seem baffled that post mortem results before revealed something totally different and now we are being told something else.....this is definately wrong as there CANNOT be two results especially of a sexual nature, it is not possible as I have dealt with post mortems and there is no way you can have two different results.



Will Pakistan agree to a joint Indian investigation into all of its alleged state sponsored terrorism not only in Asia but *internationally * ? I think not. People who live in glass houses should not be throwing stones


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## ssheppard

People just getting pissed off because they got busted....they thought that they will be able to take India for a ride using fake acusitions and fabricated media stories... they though they will be able to create a media frenzy against India in world community...but they failed to realize that the truth prevails in the end....their proofs got busted one by one........and now they just want to continue harping about ....biased reports......


They just want to blame security forces.....and are going crazy about the fact that their claims got slam dunked ....and their so called evidence proved false....... Poor job done by Pakistani Paid separatists...and good job done by Indian Investigating agencies.


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## ssheppard

*Report indicts 13 for fabricating evidence*

Srinagar, Dec 14: The premier investigating agency, the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI), which filed its report before the High Court Monday, has chargesheeted 13 persons in the Shopian case, involving the alleged rape and murder of two women, Asiya and Neelofer.

The thirteen persons chargesheet before CJM Srinagar include six doctors, five lawyers from Shopian, including Shopian Bar president, and two civilians. Interestingly, the agency has brought no charges against the four cops who were earlier arrested by the Special Investigation Team (SIT) on July 15.

The CBI, which took over the investigation from the SIT on September 17 into the alleged Shopian rape and murder case, has now finalized its investigation, terming the Shopian case as a case of drowning. Talking to the mediapersons, CBI counsel Anil Bhan, advocate, who earlier represented the agency in the court, told Rising Kashmir: The CBI has finalized its investigation. It is a case of drowning. It is neither a case of rape nor murder. The CBI has chargesheeted 13 persons for fabrication of the evidence, adding the chargesheet was presented before the CJM Srinagar on December 10 by the CBI.

Earlier, talking to the mediapersons, CBI chief investigating officer Sanjay said,
We have charged 13 persons, which include six doctors, five lawyers and two civilians. 
When asked why CBI filed its chargesheet in Srinagar and not Shopian, he said, CJM Srinagar is the notified court for the CBI cases in Kashmir Valley, that is why we filed the chargesheet in CJM Court Srinagar.

The 13 persons chargesheeted by the CBI include Dr Nighat Shaheen, Dr Ghulam Qadir Sofi, Dr Mohd Maqbool Mir, Dr Ghulam Mohammad Paul, Dr Bilal Ahmad Dalal, Dr Nazia Hassan, advocates Dr Abdul Majid Mir (Shopian Bar president), Mushtaq Ahmad Gattoo (Public prosecutor), Mohd Yousuf Bhat, Mohd Altaf, Sheikh Mubarak, besides Ali Mohammad Sheikh (civilian) and Zahoor Ahmad Ahanger (Shakeel's brother).

In the 66-page chargesheet prepared by the CBI, it has been submitted as regards the findings of the exhumation carried out by the AIIMS doctors on September 28,

After examining the aforesaid samples, the Board of Directors of AIIMS, New Delhi forwarded their opinion, including the findings of the CFSL, New Delhi vide their opinion No. CL.For.Med.22/2009 dated 15.11.2009 which is as under....

The charge sheet further reads, In view of the above findings, we are of the considered opinion that the cause of death in the case of Asiya was due to asphyxia, as a result of ante-mortem drowning. The lacerated wound on the forehead could be produced by blunt force/striking head against the hard surface and was not sufficient to cause death in ordinary course of nature. There was nothing suggestive of penetration of penis or like object through the hymen opening as the hymen was found intact.

Drawing their conclusion in case of Neelofer, the Board adds, in view of the findings, we are of the considered opinion that the cause of death in this case was due to asphyxia as a result of ante-mortem drowning. There were no external ante-mortem injuries on the body.
In section 16.16.13.6, the charge sheet, while giving clean chit to the police officers, adds: The call detail records of the mobile phones used by the suspected police officers were checked and verified from all angles but nothing adverse was found. Hence the investigation has revealed that the four arrested police officers were not involved in any manner with this incident.

The charge sheet adds, the investigation has revealed that the six doctors mentioned such false facts in their different post-mortem reports which supported the theory of rape and murder of the deceased ladies, whereas it has been conclusively proved by the findings of the AIIMS/CFSL that the deceased ladies had died due to ante-mortem drowning, besides these being no evidence to support any attempt to rape."

The charge sheet adds, similarly, the five accused advocates induced, assaulted and threatened the witnesses to make false statements implicating the police, troops in a false case of rape and murder of the two deceased in order to defame, discredit and cause injury to the personnel of the police/security forces and get them wrongfully convicted for capital offence.

Further, the charge sheet adds: "Thus the accused have committed offences under section 120-B, 167, 193, 194, 195 A RPC and substantive offences under section 167, 193, 194 and 195 A RPC. It is therefore prayed that the accused persons named above may be summoned and tried according to the law.

Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - Report indicts 13 for fabricating evidence


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## Gazzi

PlanetWarrior said:


> Will Pakistan agree to a joint Indian investigation into all of its alleged state sponsored terrorism not only in Asia but *internationally * ? I think not. People who live in glass houses should not be throwing stones



Ditto,

India to date has refused to allow outside independent investigation even with Pakistan over atrocities in Kashmir which is a disputed terrotiry. Now, were finding mass graves. What makes you think Pakistan will now allow India in their country. Did India allow Pakistan into theirs, or allow Pakistani investigators into India for the Mumbai attacks for a joint or independent Investigations.


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## ssheppard

JAMMU: In a new twist to the Shopian case, the Central Bureau of Investigation has ruled out that the two women were raped or murdered as alleged by relatives and later by people in the Kashmir Valley, leading to a turmoil for nearly two months.

*Case of drowning*

The CBI concluded that they died of drowning. It has also filed a charge sheet against 13 people including doctors and lawyers for misleading the investigation.

*The CBI finding is contained in the final report it submitted before the Jammu and Kashmir High Court on Monday*. A Bench of Chief Justice Barin Ghosh and Justice Mohammad Yaqoob Mir held in-camera proceedings, after the Majlis-e-Mushawarat, the body spearheading the agitation in the case, refused to be part of the exercise. The case has been posted to the third week of February 2010.

CBI counsel Anil Bhan said: The CBI has finalised its investigation. It is a case of drowning [in the local Rambiar Nallah]. It is neither a case of rape or murder. The CBI has chargesheeted 13 persons for fabrication of evidence.

Mr. Bhan presented a 66-page report and other documents, as directed by the court at its October 13 hearing.

The CBI charge sheet, filed in the Chief Judicial Magistrate Court in Srinagar on December 10, indicted 13 people including six doctors and five lawyers for misleading the investigations and fabricating evidence about rape and murder.

The CBI has also given a clean chit to five police officers, including the then Shopian SP, Javed Iqbal Mattoo, who were arrested and later suspended by the government.

*PowerPoint presentation*

*Justice Ghosh raised some queries after the report was presented and the CBI counsel sought permission for making a PowerPoint presentation to answer them.

However, Abdur Rashid Dalal, president of the Majlis, intervened saying the Majlis did not want to be part of the CBI presentation.*

The Majlis has already expressed reservations and apprehensions and dissociated itself from the CBI. In fact, we have never been part of the CBI investigation. Like the Special Investigation Team, the CBI too is trying to hush up the case. I hope you wont allow the case to be buried by the CBI.

*Not a gospel of truth*

*But the Chief Justice maintained that the CBI report is not a gospel of truth. Without being part of the investigations, would you like to be part of the PowerPoint presentation?*

*Mr. Dalal again refused, saying he had some material against the AIIMS doctors involved in exhumation of the bodies. What is new in the report? The CBI has already made selective leaks to some selected mediapersons. Recently the CBI flouted the theory of drowning, saying the women were drowned in the shallow waters even though the Jan Commission ruled out drowning.*

*Presentation opposed*

*The PowerPoint presentation was opposed also by Shakeel Ahangar, husband and brother of the two women.
*
After the in-camera proceedings, the Chief Justice said Mr. Bhan submitted that the investigation was complete.


The Hindu : Front Page : CBI rules out rape, murder in Shopian case



So these so called Activists ...don't want to sit in the presentation discussing the case....they don't want to question...they don't want answers....The only have one agenda.... malign Security forces doing whatever.

they said they wanted the case probed ..by a special investigation...they got it....They said they want CBI...they got it....and now that the investigation has caught them pants down...they are crying foul....

These so called activists are no more than paid merceneries...who just want to make money and raise their stink all over the valley.


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## EjazR

Gazzi said:


> Oh oh oh.............I think we have to agree with the Indian CBI as we will be accussed by our Indian brothers of prejudice. I do however, agree that the Indians should also agree with Pakistans investigation with Indian state sponsored terrorism in Pakistan and nearly all its neighbouring countries without reservation also.
> 
> I do however, seem baffled that post mortem results before revealed something totally different and now we are being told something else.....this is definately wrong as there CANNOT be two results especially of a sexual nature, it is not possible as I have dealt with post mortems and there is no way you can have two different results.



Which _initial_ post mortem are you talking about? The one held under CBI supervision was done by doctors from Delhi AIIMS and MAjlis Mashurat (the committee spearheading the agitation) were present when it was conducted as well as the victims relatives.


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## Gazzi

EjazR said:


> Which _initial_ post mortem are you talking about? The one held under CBI supervision was done by doctors from Delhi AIIMS and MAjlis Mashurat (the committee spearheading the agitation) were present when it was conducted as well as the victims relatives.



What the hell does the Majlis Mashurat or the relatives of the family know if sexual intercourse had taken place and what the samples were and what the results are........are they qualified in this aspect....no, this is nothing but window shopping by India.


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## ssheppard

Gazzi said:


> What the hell does the Majlis Mashurat or the relatives of the family know if sexual intercourse had taken place and what the samples were and what the results are........are they qualified in this aspect....no, this is nothing but window shopping by India.



Going by the same logic....how the hell do they know that women was raped and Murdered.........Did anyone see them being raped and murdered.


May be the whole village decided on their own that since the women are already dead...lets play some politics over the dead bodies...and earn some Pakistan Moolah.


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## EjazR

*@Gazzi*

Its better you inform yourself of the facts rather than question for the sake of questioning. Let me inform you that the older sister was also said to be pregnant but the relatives and the autopsy proved that, this was false as well. 

It is a great tragedy that these two young women died, but some people are disgustingly trying to make mileage. Maybe they don't know that it is haram and one of the greatest sins to give false witness. There have been other cases were investigations have been done and the culprits punished, there should be no excuse for security or army personnel IF they committed such crimes. But those who put false allegation which in turn makes it difficult for genuine rape victims to get justice should be punished. They have by their foolish action made it more difficult for real victims to get justice by their foolish act.

*Shopian autopsy report reveals shocking fact*
In a new twist to the Shopian case, forensic scientists have found that one of the two victims was a virgin, thereby ruling out the possibility of a rape.

Forensic scientists from the All India Institute of Medical Sciences, who accompanied the Central Bureau of Investigation's team, have found during autopsy of the exhumed bodies that the hymen of 17-year-old Aasiya Jan was intact, official sources said on Tuesday.

The *forensic experts have shown the intact hymen to doctors of Mushawarat Majlis-e-Committee*, the group which spearheaded the 47-day agitation against the alleged rape and murder of the two women by security personnel, who were present at the site.

A special CBI forensic team on Monday collected samples from the bodies of the two women after exhuming them nearly four months after the incident.

The team, comprising senior doctor from AIIMS, collected a number of samples from the bodies in a process that started at 7 am and continued for nine hours.
*
They conducted the autopsy after obtaining necessary approval of the families of the victims -- 22-year-old Neelofar and her sister-in-law Aasiya*


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## ssheppard

The bottom line is...The investigation is done....and all parties were a part of the same......the judge has said ...CBI has submitted report...and I don't consider it to be Gospel...If these so called activists have got proof that these were murders....present the proof ...in front of the court and bust CBI.....but they can't do that....and they don't want to do that...because they don't have anything...all fake lies.....nothing else but a money making game......


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> You mean besides making it apparent that the so called 'popular' sentiment is actually a result of incitement by Pakistan and therefore, in reality, it is not a 'people's' movement, but merely a ruse to achieve Pakistan's irredentist ambitions, altogether putting an enormous question mark on the claim of 'spontaneity' of the so called 'Kashmir freedom struggle'; on the 'legitimacy' of any movement that calls for accession to Pakistan, or even independence; on the 'free and fairness' of any plebiscite if held (and thus validating India's stand); on the credibility of the leaders (who, although claim to be representative of people of Kashmir, are in reality, representative of Pakistan).
> 
> Nope, there is nothing wrong. Everything is hunky-dory. Its business as usual.


Nonsensical verbosity - political movements need funds - Pakistan providing funds to a popular movement protesting Indian occupation does automatically imply that the movement is not popular.

Every thing is hunky dory thank you.


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Nonsensical verbosity...


 Yeah sure.


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## Hulk

Today there is protest in J&K and these people who are paid has to set it up to get money in future.
So protest are created, I will doscunt protest in future.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Halaku Khan said:


> In fact, India goes to great lengths to keep the aged Syed Ali Gilani alive, making sure he gets the best treatment in hospitals in Delhi and Srinagar.


Perhaps too high profile for the Indian security forces to openly torture, murder and bury in a mass grave like the thousands of other Kashmiris.


> He keeps harping on unification with Pakistan, and imposition of Sharia Law. That serves as a useful reminder to the people about the nightmare of Talibanization that they will descend into, should the separatists get their way.


This argument is a canard designed to get the West's support by raising the bogeyman of 'Islamist terrorism' by painting the Kashmiri Freedom Movement as some sort of 'Taliban'. One set of leaders advocating in favor of a theocratic style of government does not serve as 'useful reminder' of anything. There are other leaders who would not want a Taliban style system, and at the end of the day, either as a part of India or as a part of Pakistan, the people of kashmir have to choose their system of government, and so far they have rejected Talibanism in both nations.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> Yeah sure.


 Of course - you know your argument was illogical. Funding from Pakistan for a movement has no implications on whether the movement itself has popular support or not.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

indianrabbit said:


> Today there is protest in J&K and these people who are paid has to set it up to get money in future.
> So protest are created, I will doscunt protest in future.



Yes these protests are all paid - then why not hold a referendum and really test your hypothesis and end the dispute? The majority will choose India going by your logic right?

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

* Kashmiris protest against reports of womens case*

Tuesday, 15 Dec, 2009

SRINAGAR: A protest strike shut down Indian-administered Kashmir on Tuesday after investigators said two women allegedly raped and murdered had actually died by drowning, triggering angry claims of a cover-up.

Public anger and outbreaks of violence shook the region in May after the bodies of the two Muslim women were found in a stream. Locals said they had been sexually abused and killed by the security forces.

The strike closed shops, offices, banks and post offices in the Kashmiri summer capital of Srinagar and other Muslim-majority towns, including the victims home town of Shopian, witnesses said.

Hundreds of Kashmiris held noisy anti-government demonstrations in Shopian overnight as authorities deployed riot police to avert any new mass unrest over the case.

We urge the people of Kashmir to observe a complete shutdown against the concocted story presented by the CBI (Central Bureau of Investigations) before the court, Abdul Rasheed Deva, one of the protest leaders, told AFP.

Police initially said the 17-year-old girl and her 22-year-old sister-in-law had drowned, but later agreed they might have been raped and murdered. In September, the CBI took over the case.

In a report for Indias high court on Monday, the federal agency concluded that the two had drowned, ruling out rape and murder.

Even some pro-India politicians rejected the CBIs conclusions.

The whole charade of investigations by multiple agencies was aimed at shielding the culprits rather than bringing them to book, said Mehbooba Mufti, the leader of the main opposition Peoples Democratic Party.

The government has yet to react to the report.

DAWN.COM | World | Kashmiris protest against reports of women?s case


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## Hulk

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Yes these protests are all paid - then why not hold a referendum and really test your hypothesis and end the dispute? The majority will choose India going by your logic right?



The organisor are paid, they spread false information and gullible people fall for it. So that might mean that they hate India for none of their faults as masters are spreading false information.

Common people are generally not smart and can make into to believe what is not true. (e.g. No evidence of Indian involvement is provided to common public but they believe India is behined all attacks in Pakistan, managing perceptions by ISI, I can say and they have experience in India so they are doing it well in Pakistan)

I am all for referendum but given this information, I do not think it is right time, since lot of false propoganda is going on. I can see conspiracy against India here.

We can fix a timetable and do it, that is my take, but I do not think GOI listens to me and they are not going to do it.

ISI and GOP have waged a propoganda war against us.

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## Hulk

Sorry to see that propoganda wins in today's world. I have seen many intances where politicians have been proved wrong, in-fact there is hardly any when they are right, but people believe when it suits them. I saw the video when the doctor said she replaced swab with her own to prove rape, when one of them were actually virgin. So Pakistani money is doing good job in Kashmir. I guess Geleani might have paid the doctor.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

indianrabbit said:


> The organisor are paid, they spread false information and gullible people fall for it. So that might mean that they hate India for none of their faults as masters are spreading false information.
> 
> Common people are generally not smart and can make into to believe what is not true. (e.g. No evidence of Indian involvement is provided to common public but they believe India is behined all attacks in Pakistan, managing perceptions by ISI, I can say and they have experience in India so they are doing it well in Pakistan)
> 
> I am all for referendum but given this information, I do not think it is right time, since lot of false propoganda is going on. I can see conspiracy against India here.
> 
> We can fix a timetable and do it, that is my take, but I do not think GOI listens to me and they are not going to do it.
> 
> ISI and GOP have waged a propoganda war against us.



First you say that there is no popular support in favor of Pakistan and/or in favor of separatism, then you say it isn't the right time because 'propaganda has brainwashed the common folk', which implies that there is popular support for Pakistan and/or separatism.

The 'propaganda' excuse is nonsense - Indian has loads more television stations than does Pakistan, in fact the size of the Indian media in every form dwarfs that of Pakistan. India also has the advantage of directly interacting with the Kashmiris through development projects, travel, subsidies etc. 

If despite all those advantages you claim that the common folk are 'brainwashed through propaganda', then perhaps it isn't propaganda that is responsible, but the fact that India refuses to let the Kashmiris exercise their right to self-determination as promised them repeatedly.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

indianrabbit said:


> Sorry to see that propoganda wins in today's world. I have seen many intances where politicians have been proved wrong, in-fact there is hardly any when they are right, but people believe when it suits them. I saw the video when the doctor said she replaced swab with her own to prove rape, when one of them were actually virgin. So Pakistani money is doing good job in Kashmir. I guess Geleani might have paid the doctor.


Don't troll and flame please - if you have evidence substantiating your POV that these protesters were paid, then provide that. Otherwise there are Kashmiris on this forum who are in favor of separating from India who would be rather insulted by your unsubstantiated allegation that these protesters and the people involved in the case were 'paid by Pakistan' to enact this drama.

I could equally well argue that given the thousands of Kashmiris massacred and buried in mass graves by the Indian security forces, the investigation by the CBI is just another in a long list of farcical endeavors by the GoI to hide its crimes and continue oppression of the Kashmiris and discredit the separatist movement.


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## Hulk

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> First you say that there is no popular support in favor of Pakistan and/or in favor of separatism, then you say it isn't the right time because 'propaganda has brainwashed the common folk', which implies that there is popular support for Pakistan and/or separatism.
> 
> The 'propaganda' excuse is nonsense - Indian has loads more television stations than does Pakistan, in fact the size of the Indian media in every form dwarfs that of Pakistan. India also has the advantage of directly interacting with the Kashmiris through development projects, travel, subsidies etc.
> 
> If despite all those advantages you claim that the common folk are 'brainwashed through propaganda', then perhaps it isn't propaganda that is responsible, but the fact that India refuses to let the Kashmiris exercise their right to self-determination as promised them repeatedly.



where did I said that "First you say that there is no popular support in favor of Pakistan and/or in favor of separatism". I have always recognized that there is good amount of people who wanted to either seperate or be independent. I cannot say they are in majority as only referendum can tell that, but they could be in majority is what I am saying.

Media propoganda does not stage things, they can twist. They do not go and pay doctors to change the reports, so media is not counter to what Gelani is upto.

Also people are alway anti establishment, the prime reason why most government are voted out of power in next election. So it is easy to inflame feelings against establishment but on the contrary no amount of good work will being good feelings.

I am all for referendum but my point is valid, fixing rape is not ordinary thing.

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## Hulk

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Don't troll and flame please - if you have evidence substantiating your POV that these protesters were paid, then provide that. Otherwise there are Kashmiris on this forum who are in favor of separating from India who would be rather insulted by your unsubstantiated allegation that these protesters and the people involved in the case were 'paid by Pakistan' to enact this drama.
> 
> I could equally well argue that given the thousands of Kashmiris massacred and buried in mass graves by the Indian security forces, the investigation by the CBI is just another in a long list of farcical endeavors by the GoI to hide its crimes and continue oppression of the Kashmiris and discredit the separatist movement.



I am neither trolling nor flamming, similar belifes are also expressed by Pakistani's on threads related to them. They are never warned, so if I express my feelings which does not suits you that is flaming. People have put conspiracy theories here and I believe on mine.

I have not met a single India Kashmiri on this forum.


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Of course - you know your argument was illogical. Funding from Pakistan for a movement has no implications on whether the movement itself has popular support or not.


Didn't say it isn't popular. What I had said was:

'_[T]he so called 'popular' sentiment is actually a result of incitement by Pakistan and therefore, in reality, it is not a 'people's' movement, but merely a ruse to achieve Pakistan's irredentist ambitions..._'

Was shifting the poles that necessary?


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## Windjammer

Let me put it this way, in our part of the world, corruption in the police force is rampant due to the lack of facilities and fortunes. An experiment was conducted on Islamabad police by giving them all the incentives possible, now some in the public complain that the same officials have become too strict in implementing the law.
If the Kashmiris were content with India, why would they need to accept
money from elsewhere and as you would put it, dance to the Pakistani tunes. They are even deprived of basic amenities such as mobile phone service and PTV viewing. Compare that with the other half.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> Didn't say it isn't popular. What I had said was:
> 
> '_[T]he so called 'popular' sentiment is actually a result of incitement by Pakistan and therefore, in reality, it is not a 'people's' movement, but merely a ruse to achieve Pakistan's irredentist ambitions..._'
> 
> Was shifting the poles that necessary?



I am not shifting poles, you are obfuscating while essentially continuing to imply that the separatist sentiment is artificially created.

What does 'incitement from Pakistan' suggest after all? Does the mere fact that Pakistan exists and claims Kashmir 'incitement'? Of course it is - but we can't stop 'existing' or end our claim to Kashmir just because the occupying entity does not like it.

The Kashmiris have two choices, and for one party that claims their hearts and minds to actively support those campaigning for the right to self-determination as promised them is perfectly legitimate.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

indianrabbit said:


> where did I said that "First you say that there is no popular support in favor of Pakistan and/or in favor of separatism". I have always recognized that there is good amount of people who wanted to either seperate or be independent. I cannot say they are in majority as only referendum can tell that, but they could be in majority is what I am saying.
> 
> Media propoganda does not stage things, they can twist. They do not go and pay doctors to change the reports, so media is not counter to what Gelani is upto.
> 
> Also people are alway anti establishment, the prime reason why most government are voted out of power in next election. So it is easy to inflame feelings against establishment but on the contrary no amount of good work will being good feelings.
> 
> I am all for referendum but my point is valid, fixing rape is not ordinary thing.


I don't understand your POV - if pro-seperatism leaders exist then so do pro-India leaders, along with all the other machinery and resources of the Indian State to provide a counter narrative to the separatist one and win over the Kashmiri hearts and minds. The resources at the disposal of the Indian state dwarf anything Pakistan can put into it. Yet, according to you, 'propaganda has brainwashed the common folk. 

If propaganda from an entity that has a very limited presence in the territory and limited resources is responsible, then it essentially points to failures on the part of the Indian State, and perhaps to the fact that it is not 'propaganda' that is the cause for separatism but a genuine resentment of continued occupation and a denial of the right to self-determination. If the latter, then continuing to refuse to commit to self-determination and continuing occupation will only perpetuate that resentment, not alleviate it.

Being supportive of a referendum does not mean it has to be held today. In another thread we argued that the Indian government could with Pakistan agree to hold a referendum 10-15 years down the road provided certain benchmarks were met in terms of peace and stability in the Kashmir valley. 

Such a move would be an enormous incentive to normalization in the territory, and regionally, and would provide additional space for India to win hearts and minds in Kashmir.


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## Hulk

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I don't understand your POV - if pro-seperatism leaders exist then so do pro-India leaders, along with all the other machinery and resources of the Indian State to provide a counter narrative to the separatist one and win over the Kashmiri hearts and minds. The resources at the disposal of the Indian state dwarf anything Pakistan can put into it. Yet, according to you, 'propaganda has brainwashed the common folk.
> 
> If propaganda from an entity that has a very limited presence in the territory and limited resources is responsible, then it essentially points to failures on the part of the Indian State, and perhaps to the fact that it is not 'propaganda' that is the cause for separatism but a genuine resentment of continued occupation and a denial of the right to self-determination. If the latter, then continuing to refuse to commit to self-determination and continuing occupation will only perpetuate that resentment, not alleviate it.
> 
> Being supportive of a referendum does not mean it has to be held today. In another thread we argued that the Indian government could with Pakistan to hold a referendum 10-15 years down the road provided certain benchmarks were met in terms of peace and stability in the Kashmir valley.
> 
> Such a move would be an enormous incentive to normalization in the territory and regionally, and would provide additional space for India to win hearts and minds in Kashmir.



Like I said before, I am all for referendum with pre defined dates of doing things.


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## bandit

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> What does 'incitement from Pakistan' suggest after all? Does the mere fact that Pakistan exists and claims Kashmir 'incitement'? Of course it is - but we can't stop 'existing' or *end our claim *to Kashmir just because the occupying entity does not like it.
> 
> .



*end our claim *

_Incredible_....What in the hell claim do you have over Kashmir, 

The people vote for you-No.

The Maharaja accede to you-No.

These were the only two legal methods you could claim the territory of undivided India, Not some god given birth right being taught in schools.

As for the plebiscite-get Pakistani forces out, state and non-state, give the P-O-K under Indian administration and then talk or whatever about any Plebiscite for those are the rules laid down for plebiscite.


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## Awesome

The Propaganda excuse is like saying the Kashmiris are too stupid to vote, so we have to impose our decision on them.

How modest of them superior Indians.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

bandit said:


> *end our claim *
> 
> _Incredible_....What in the hell claim do you have over Kashmir,
> 
> The people vote for you-No.
> 
> The Maharaja accede to you-No.
> 
> These were the only two legal methods you could claim the territory of undivided India, Not some god given birth right being taught in schools.
> 
> As for the plebiscite-get Pakistani forces out, state and non-state, give the P-O-K under Indian administration and then talk or whatever about any Plebiscite for those are the rules laid down for plebiscite.



*Learn to be civil or ship out.*

Read the UNSC resolutions, and India's acceptance of them, to figure out Pakistan's claim.


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## Windjammer

bandit said:


> *end our claim *
> 
> _Incredible_....What in the hell claim do you have over Kashmir,
> 
> The people vote for you-No.
> 
> The Maharaja accede to you-No.
> 
> These were the only two legal methods you could claim the territory of undivided India, Not some god given birth right being taught in schools.
> 
> As for the plebiscite-get Pakistani forces out, state and non-state, give the P-O-K under Indian administration and then talk or whatever about any Plebiscite for those are the rules laid down for plebiscite.


Do they vote for you, ? BIG NO, instead it's observed as a black day.
Calling your self a democracy, ? UN resolutions imply more authenticy and credit than a money making Maharaja's stint.
After Pokhran, the Indian establishment did talk about Azad Kashmir, but as soon as the Chaghi Mountain turned white, BJP changed it's tune to "bilateraly resolving all outstanding issues, including Kashmir".
Basically, like a stray animal, you people need constant slapping around the ears to keep you in the line.


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## bandit

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *Learn to be civil or ship out.*
> 
> Read the UNSC resolutions, and India's acceptance of them, to figure out Pakistan's claim.



India had a claim because it has a legal document signed by the ruling authority in the state, Pakistan has no claim until the plebiscite happens and the people choose it in the vote. Till then it is just meddling in foreign affairs.
UN resolution states that it is India that has to administer the plebiscite, recognizing its claim on the state, Pakistan is recognized as the aggressor and needs to get out before anything to proceed. That much is pretty clear from the texts and not your claims.

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## bandit

Windjammer said:


> Do they vote for you, ? BIG NO, instead it's observed as a black day.
> Calling your self a democracy, ? UN resolutions imply more authenticy and credit than a money making Maharaja's stint.
> After Pokhran, the Indian establishment did talk about Azad Kashmir, but as soon as the Chaghi Mountain turned white, BJP changed it's tune to "bilateraly resolving all outstanding issues, including Kashmir".
> Basically, like a stray animal, you people need constant slapping around the ears to keep you in the line.




Thats the whole point of this thread if you missed it...those observing black days are paid Pakistani propagandanists

Maharaja signing a document carries a legal standing and UN recognizes as such, thats why Pakistan was recognized as an aggressor that attacked a sovereign state and was told to remove its forces from Kashmir. 

The UN resolution is non-Binding and long as India isn't satisfied that Pakistan has no further designs of land grab, it doesnt need to hold the plebiscite.

as for the rest you can howl along...

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## Windjammer

bandit said:


> Thats the whole point of this thread if you missed it...those observing black days are paid Pakistani propagandanists
> 
> Maharaja signing a document carries a legal standing and UN recognizes as such, thats why Pakistan was recognized as an aggressor that attacked a sovereign state and was told to remove its forces from Kashmir.
> 
> The UN resolution is non-Binding and long as India isn't satisfied that Pakistan has no further designs of land grab, it doesnt need to hold the plebiscite.
> 
> as for the rest you can howl along...


Pakistan must be much richer than i assumed, it can afford to pay and buy out all the Kashmir citizens not to mention 80,000 odd buried in mass graves.
If Maharaja's document held any water, why the world community is alarmed at the issue and repeatedly urge India/Pakistan to resolve this dispute.?
Unless it's prone to making a statement a day, the successive Indian governments have admitted at one time or other as Kashmir being a biletral issue.
And when they were feeling the heat, it was Indian establishment howling as Kashmir is bleeding India........!!!!!!!!


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## deckingraj

> Thats the whole point of this thread if you missed it...those observing black days are paid Pakistani propagandanists





> Pakistan must be much richer than i assumed, it can afford to pay and buy out all the Kashmir citizens not to mention 80,000 odd buried in mass graves.



Those two are perfect example of exaggeration on both sides which is far far from truth.....
a) There is a definite support for separatists...However it is not in majority and is diminishing...Average kashmiri is more worried about his/her economic condition than being a pawn in India-Pakistan tussle over Kashmir....

b) 80,000 odd buried in mass graves??? You must be smoking something...




> If Maharaja's document held any water, why the world community is alarmed at the issue and repeatedly urge India/Pakistan to resolve this dispute.?



World community is alarmed because masses(read people like us) in both the countries think that nukes are toys and waging a war is a joke or military training exercise.... 



> Unless it's prone to making a statement a day, the successive Indian governments have admitted at one time or other as Kashmir being a biletral issue.


Is there any time that Indian Government never admitted that Kashmir is not a bilateral issue? 



> And when they were feeling the heat, it was Indian establishment howling as Kashmir is bleeding India........!!!!!!!!


What heat are you pointing to???? All i know is that there is not a single change in position of Kashmir since 1947(if any than its India who has made advances)


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## deckingraj

> Basically, like a stray animal, you people need constant slapping around the ears to keep you in the line.



It is people like you who flame...Anyways let me ask you something on a very humble note...Please point one achievement of Pakistan that you think is worth in respect to Kashmir since 1947??? The only thing that i see is the covert war which was at its peak in 90's...Any geographical change??? Than what kind of slapping are you talking about???


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## Iggy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How can you justify using hundreds of thousands of Indian Army and paramilitary forces to occupy and control J&K? Let them choose which nation they wish to be a part of under a free and fair plebiscite.



Same question I am asking you ..What is Pakistan army doing in so called 'Azad Kashmir '?? Please enlighten me whats the stand of Pakistan in Kashmir issue??They wanted Azad Kashmir or Kashmir to be a part of Pakistan??

If your want Kashmir to be Azad what dignity your government has left to make such a claim Agno?you government ceded some land of an Independent country to another country..this itself shows what you want to do with that place..

And if you wanted Kashmir to be a part of your country.then its clear that you started war in 1948 and Maharaja has only one thing left to do to protect his country that is joining India..so we have every right to be in that state and Kashmir is India..


Off topic question :If India settles this issue according to what Pakistan hope for..can your government get back the land ceded to China from them??Are they willing to give back the land your government had given to them??


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## arihant

Honor said:


> Why India reneged on its commitment to the UNSC resolution to hold a UN led plebiscite in Kashmir? This could well resolved the territorial dispute!



UN Resolution required Pakistan to withdraw completely from Kashmir. It also allowed India to maintain minimum Forces for law and order and this never happened. India has article 307 that restrict non Kashmiri to settle in J&K while same is not restricted in Azad Kashmir So, the UN resolution is totally invalid in current scenario.


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## TheBraveHeart

Windjammer said:


> *Do they vote for you, ? BIG NO, instead it's observed as a black day.*


Please get your facts correct, if more than 60% voting is considered as "no vote" then 
For the records, its more than many of the other Indian states vote...
Link:Jammu and Kashmir state assembly elections, 2008 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Only a few separatists observe Black day and AFAIK there was one who despite attempts by others not to let him contest, contested and lost. 


> Calling your self a democracy, ? UN resolutions imply more authenticy and credit than a money making Maharaja's stint.
> After Pokhran, the Indian establishment did talk about Azad Kashmir, but as soon as the Chaghi Mountain turned white, BJP changed it's tune to "bilateraly resolving all outstanding issues, including Kashmir".
> Basically,* like a stray animal, you people need constant slapping around the ears to keep you in the line.*



Request you to be more polite in your choice of words, and for the sake of argument, even if BJP was in power its the Indian govt. that takes such decisions which at that time was a coalition one and included Nationalist Conference i.e Farookh Abdullah(J&K mandate seat)

@ topic
Its nice that a few of the separatists have developed inclinations towards talks and peaceful negotiations. They must be more frank about Pakistans involvement and its mode of support(i.e money, freedomfighters, influence on their decisions) so that people of J&K know the truth and decide for themselves, future course of action and demands.

Also if they want to demonstrate their support base they should be actively involved in elections. 

For Indians, its nothing but an eye opener especially for those who believe Indian govt. is a bit harsh on the separatists....


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## pmano

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Can the Indian security forces bring back to life the tens of thousands tortured and massacred by them and buried in mass graves?
> 
> Let me know how that works out.
> 
> The real 'pity' is that Indian continues to occupy the territory and deny the Kashmiris the right to self determination as promised in the UNSC resolutions and accepted by India.



What about Pakistani jehadi forces.??..don't you think kashmir would have been better off with out them and then there would also not have been heavy indian security forces which you blame are killing people....?

india side of Kashmir is in sate a disaster today but the culprits are both the indian and pro pakisani jehadi forces...have to say....we say in hindi 1 haath se talli nhi bajti..

It would be great if Pakistan take care of its 180 million people rather than butting in for a few lac kashmiris living in India..


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## Valiant_Soul

Honor said:


> Kashmiri wants to join India? Any evidence?



There is lot of ground to believe that Tibetans do not want to be with China. Would China make Tibet free if majority there want independence? I do not think any nation at this stage of time can afford to give away its land because people want otherwise, that is violation of territorial integrity. And we have know what Kashmiris want from the assembly elections.


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## mr42O

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/15/world/asia/15kashmir.html?ref=asia 
SRINAGAR, Kashmir  Two young Kashmiri women whose deaths ignited violent protests in this disputed province over the summer were not raped or murdered, but drowned in a mountain stream, Indias top investigative agency said Monday, in the latest and perhaps most stunning turn in a deeply contentious case.

The bodies of the two  17-year-old Aasiya Jan and her sister-in-law Nilofar Shakeel, 22  were found in a shallow stream on May 30. The women had told relatives they were going to the familys orchard, but were not seen again alive. 

Initially government officials said that the two women had drowned. But many Kashmiris discounted that explanation, given that the stream in which their bodies were found is seldom more than ankle deep, and a doctor involved with a second autopsy said that there was no doubt the women had been raped. The deaths fueled suspicions that Indian soldiers prey upon Kashmiri women, even though Kashmiri police officers are suspected in this case. 

A 66-page report on the case by Indias Central Bureau of Investigation was presented in court here on Monday. It said that forensic evidence collected from the womens bodies indicated that they had died accidentally and that there was no evidence that either had been raped.

The new report accuses doctors, lawyers and witnesses of falsifying information given to the police in the initial investigation, raising the troubling possibility that the rape and murder allegations were concocted as part of an elaborate hoax intended to embarrass Indias security forces, whose presence here is often likened to an occupation.

But to many Kashmiris the report points to a still more troubling accusation: a cover-up that reaches to the highest levels of Indian law enforcement. Relatives of the two women denounced the findings, and protesters burned copies of the report in front of the Jammu and Kashmir High Court, where the case was being heard. Activists and clerics called for a general strike across the Kashmir Valley on Tuesday.

Shakeel Ahmed Ahangar, the brother and widower of the two dead women, said the report was tantamount to another rape and murder of my sister and wife.

The Jammu and Kashmir High Court was quick to say that the report cannot be taken as the gospel truth.

The Delhi-based Independent Womens Initiative for Justice, which had sent a team to the Kashmir Valley on a fact-finding mission, said in its recent report that no one in recent or living memory has ever drowned in the stream, and that we would need to be more than merely credulous to believe that.

The case is deeply divisive in the volatile Kashmir Valley, which lies at the heart of the rivalry between India and Pakistan. The two have been to war twice over the province, which was divided between them when British India was partitioned in 1947. Many Kashmiris reject the territorial claims of both countries and want independence.

The delicacy of the case was on display in the courtroom here. When officials from the Central Bureau of Investigation began to give a presentation for the judges, the womens relatives shouted accusations of a cover-up. They shouted their suspicion that the women had been abducted while returning home from the family orchard on the outskirts of the town of Shopian and then raped and killed.

The agency filed charges against 13 people, including 6 doctors, 5 local lawyers, an activist and the brother of one of the dead women. The charges included fabricating evidence and intimidating witnesses after the recovery of the two bodies.

Speaking to reporters after his presentation of the evidence in court, Anil Bhan, a lawyer for the Central Bureau of Investigation, said that the bodies of the women were exhumed in the presence of their family members, that a medical inspection showed that Ms. Jan had not been raped, and that the evidence indicated that she was a virgin when she died. He added that experts from the All India Institute of Medical Sciences, Indias elite medical school, had completed the examination.

An autopsy report prepared by local doctors said that the women had been raped before they were killed. But the Central Bureau of Investigation report says the doctors gave false post-mortem reports and sent slides for DNA examination that had been tampered with.

It now seems that whole charade of investigation by multiple agencies, one after the other, was aimed at shielding the culprits rather than bringing them to book, said Mehbooba Mufti, the president of the opposition Peoples Democratic Party. She described as cruel irony the move to file charges against the family, the witnesses, lawyers and those who have wanted justice to be done.

Yusuf Jameel reported from Srinagar, and Lydia Polgreen from New Delhi

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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I am not shifting poles, you are obfuscating...


Where was the obfuscation? Which part of what I had said was not clear enough.


> ...essentially continuing to imply that the separatist sentiment is artificially created.


Correct. Glad that you finally got around to actually read my post.


> What does 'incitement from Pakistan' suggest after all?


Incitement in the given context would be manipulating opinion in Pakistan's favour by 'pumping in money' (hope you remember the phrase).


> Does the mere fact that Pakistan exists and claims Kashmir 'incitement'?


Nope. But keeping the supposed 'leaders' on Pakistani payroll is.


> Of course it is - but we can't stop 'existing' or end our claim to Kashmir just because the occupying entity does not like it.


Your claim to Kashmir is, just what it is - a mere claim.


> The Kashmiris have two choices, and for one party that claims their hearts and minds to actively support those campaigning for the right to self-determination as promised them is perfectly legitimate.


'Supporting' an issue is one thing. An interested party to a dispute actively trying to skew public opinion in ones favour is another. Keeping the so called leaders on one's payroll falls under later category. It is obvious that a plebiscite now will not be reflecting the true opinion of the people which one would expect to see under fair circumstances.

Now, more than ever, any dialogue with these leaders is out of question. Forget plebiscite for another ten thousand years or more. In all probability, there will now be concerted effort to show that it is in fact Lone, who is on Indian payroll.


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## PWFI

It's normal in india


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## ps80

When quoting news articles, I think the rule should be that all PDF members should not deliberately change their original titles.


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## Hulk

They were not raped at all, the doctor admitted it that she replaced the swab under public pressure. It was later found that one was actually vigrin. This whole story is to create stir in J&K and it looks like it is the order of the day.


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## Aslan

indianrabbit said:


> They were not raped at all, the doctor admitted it that she replaced the swab under public pressure. It was later found that one was actually vigrin. This whole story is to create stir in J&K and it looks like it is the order of the day.



My question to you is that if the doc can change the statement (as mentioned) under pressure once what are the chances that now is not the case.


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## Gazzi

Regardless of whatever the CBI puts forward it makes no difference. The autopsy was done long before the bodies were exhumed and confirmed that they had been raped and murdered. Now, since the Indian Government got involved suddenly, after another autopsy under the supervisionof the CBI they drowned. This is becoming more and more of a fiasco, a bit like the Scarlett Keeling murder.

This will just harden the feelings of Kashmiris even further. One single call from the Hurriyat and the entire Kashmir valley comes to a shutdown. Some Indian love there huh!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Threads merged*

Reading the first article in this thread, where locals argue the stream is rarely above ankle deep, accidental drowning does seem a rather perplexing reason.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

seiko said:


> Same question I am asking you ..What is Pakistan army doing in so called 'Azad Kashmir '?? Please enlighten me whats the stand of Pakistan in Kashmir issue??They wanted Azad Kashmir or Kashmir to be a part of Pakistan??
> 
> If your want Kashmir to be Azad what dignity your government has left to make such a claim Agno?you government ceded some land of an Independent country to another country..this itself shows what you want to do with that place..
> 
> And if you wanted Kashmir to be a part of your country.then its clear that you started war in 1948 and Maharaja has only one thing left to do to protect his country that is joining India..so we have every right to be in that state and Kashmir is India..
> 
> 
> Off topic question :If India settles this issue according to what Pakistan hope for..can your government get back the land ceded to China from them??Are they willing to give back the land your government had given to them??



The difference between the Pakistani position and the Indian position is that we want kashmri to be a part of Pakistan only if the Kashmiris decide to choose that option via plebiscite.

As for the land under Chinese control - if the Kashmiris choose Pakistan, Pakistan's arrangement with China is that China keeps that land. If the Kashmiris choose India, the agreement with China on the land calls for negotiations between China and India on the status of that land.


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## Iggy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The difference between the Pakistani position and the Indian position is that we want kashmri to be a part of Pakistan only if the Kashmiris decide to choose that option via plebiscite.
> 
> As for the land under Chinese control - if the Kashmiris choose Pakistan, Pakistan's arrangement with China is that China keeps that land. If the Kashmiris choose India, the agreement with China on the land calls for negotiations between China and India on the status of that land.



What about Kashmir wanted to be a free country??Agno your country decided the fate of Kashmir before the people of Kashmir decide which choice are they going to make..Is this shows that Pakistan wanted Kashmir to be part of the country irrespective of what Kashmiries think??So all these cry for Azad Kashmir is just a eye wash from the Pakistan govt to impress international audience and Kashmiri people??Is this also confirm who is the real aggressor of 1948?

In the end there is no difference between us..we both dont care what Kashmiries think..we both wanted that land ..but India got the upper hand while trying ..

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> Where was the obfuscation? Which part of what I had said was not clear enough.
> 
> Correct. Glad that you finally got around to actually read my post.


I read your post, there is little difference in suggesting the separatist sentiment is artificially created or does not exist in the context of your arguments. You are merely obfuscating and distorting the issue.


> Incitement in the given context would be manipulating opinion in Pakistan's favour by 'pumping in money' (hope you remember the phrase).
> 
> Nope. But keeping the supposed 'leaders' on Pakistani payroll is.


Providing funding and support to a popular political movement does not prove that the movement is not popular, or for that matter prove that the movement is popular - your argument is illogical.



> Your claim to Kashmir is, just what it is - a mere claim.


Accepted and endorsed by the UNSC and India through its acceptance of the UNSC resolutions.


> 'Supporting' an issue is one thing. An interested party to a dispute actively trying to skew public opinion in ones favour is another. Keeping the so called leaders on one's payroll falls under later category. It is obvious that a plebiscite now will not be reflecting the true opinion of the people which one would expect to see under fair circumstances.


More nonsensical verbosity and quibbling over semantics. Any 'issue' being supported is championed by leadership and entities wedded to the cause of that issue - issues themselves don't develop bodies, arms and legs and go propagate and promote themselves. 

So when an issue is supported the leadership and entities championing that issue and cause are the ones supported - one doesn't drop money f.rom an airplane over Kashmir and just hope 'the issue is supported', nor are you going to see a political poster sprout legs and arms and go chanting and waving in support of 'the issue'.

So give your nonsensical argument a rest.


> Now, more than ever, any dialogue with these leaders is out of question. Forget plebiscite for another ten thousand years or more. In all probability, there will now be concerted effort to show that it is in fact Lone, who is on Indian payroll.


Dialog and progress on Kashmir by India, since Nehru backtracked on his commitment to the UNSC resolutions and the plebiscite, unless to perpetuate its occupation, has always been out of the question. So this position you articulate is not exactly something new.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

seiko said:


> What about Kashmir wanted to be a free country??Agno your country decided the fate of Kashmir before the people of Kashmir decide which choice are they going to make..Is this shows that Pakistan wanted Kashmir to be part of the country irrespective of what Kashmiries think??So all these cry for Azad Kashmir is just a eye wash from the Pakistan govt to impress international audience and Kashmiri people??Is this also confirm who is the real aggressor of 1948?
> 
> In the end there is no difference between us..we both dont care what Kashmiries think..we both wanted that land ..but India got the upper hand while trying ..


Pakistan is officially committed to the UNSC resolutions, which do not offer an option for Independence. However we are committed to allowing the Kashmiris to decide which nation they wish to be a part of, and unite divided Kashmir, and Kashmiri families when the Kashmiri people have the freedom to make that decision. And that is the freedom Pakistan refers to - the freedom for Kashmiris to choose which nation they wish to be a part of.

Pakistan has indirectly indicated (most recently through Musharraf's various proposals) of looking at a quasi-Independent Kashmir (not including G-B or Jammu and Laddakh I believe) as a compromise solution.


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## Iggy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *Pakistan is officially committed to the UNSC resolutions, which do not offer an option for Independence.* However we are committed to allowing the Kashmiris to decide which nation they wish to be a part of, and unite divided Kashmir, and Kashmiri families when the Kashmiri people have the freedom to make that decision. And that is the freedom Pakistan refers to - the freedom for Kashmiris to choose which nation they wish to be a part of.
> 
> Pakistan has indirectly indicated (most recently through Musharraf's various proposals) of looking at a quasi-Independent Kashmir (not including G-B or Jammu and Laddakh I believe) as a compromise solution.




So is this means your government is making a complete fool out them by giving them false hope of Azad Kashmir??and also Agno some of your countrymen saying Kashmir is an Independent country and some like you saying Kashmir can choose between our two countries..Its totally confusing.. are you guys changing the stand to which ever is most suitable to you??

And also some more to add 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azad_Kashmir

http://www.ajk.gov.pk/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=38&id=214&Itemid=140

it show Azad Kashmir working as an Independent country..is this also a eye wash to fool Kashmiries?so that separatist movement in India should last long??


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

seiko said:


> So is this means your government is making a complete fool out them by giving them false hope of Azad Kashmir??and also Agno some of your countrymen saying Kashmir is an Independent country and some like you saying Kashmir can choose between our two countries..Its totally confusing.. are you guys changing the stand to which ever is most suitable to you??
> 
> And also some more to add
> 
> Azad Kashmir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Azad Jammu and Kashmir - General Information
> 
> it show Azad Kashmir working as an Independent country..is this also a eye wash to fool Kashmiries?so that separatist movement in India should last long??


Azad Kashmir is autonomous territory till a resolution of the dispute. If the J&K dispute is resolved in favor of Pakistan in accordance with the UNSC resolutions, then J&K would be a province in Pakistan, and we would negotiate the degree of autonomy/central control with the Kashmiri population.

If Kashmir is resolved in any other fashion, Azad Kashmir stands dissolved and the conditions of whatever solution has been arrived at apply.

I fail to see how this is in any way 'fooling the Kashmiris or the world' - the fact is that Pakistan stands for implementing the UNSC resolutions giving them the right to self-determination and uniting divided Kashmir whereas India stands against all of that.


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## grey boy 2

December 15, 2009 Tuesday 

*African Union urges India to settle Kashmir dispute at the earliest *

Pakistan -- ISLAMABAD, The Ambassadors of African Union have urged India to resolve the Kashmir dispute at the earliest as it is vital to peace and stability of the region in particular and the world in general. The Ambassadors of African Union residing in Islamabad, talking to the journalists,said that 800,000 Indian troops deployed in Occupied Kashmir were torturing the innocent people of Jammu and Kashmir to deprive them of their birthright to self-determination. 

They also stressed for taking African countries into confidence regarding the resolution of the Kashmir dispute. Meanwhile, the former Prime Minister of Azad Jammu and Kashmir and President of Peoples Muslim League, Barrister Sultan Mehmood Chaudhry briefed the ambassadors about the Kashmir dispute at the residence of ambassador of South Africa in Islamabad. 

The meeting was presided over by the President of the Ambassadors of African Union and Ambassador of Kenya to Pakistan, Mrs. Mishi Masika Mwatsah, while the Ambassador of Egypt, Magdy Amer, Ambassador of Sudan, Omer Musa, Ambassador of Tunis, Mourad Bourehla, Ambassador of Libya, Ibrahim Mukhtar, Deputy Ambassador of Nigeria, Ridwan Adebayo, Consular of Algeria, Khiari Abderrahim, Ambassador of Morocco and Ambassador of Mauritius participated in the meeting and assured their full support in resolving the dispute.

Published by HT Syndication with permission from Right Vision News. For more information on news feed please contact Sarabjit Jagirdar at htsyndication@hindustantimes.com 

LexisNexis News - Latest News from over 4,000 sources, including newspapers, tv transcripts, wire services, magazines, journals.


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## EjazR

*95&#37; militants in Kashmir are from outside: Ghulam Nabi Azad*
Dec 15 (PTI) Union Health Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad today said 95 per cent of the militants operating in Jammu and Kashmir are not from the state.

"Twenty years ago the ratio was 95 per cent from the state and five per cent from outside. Now it is just the reverse because the people have understood that justice can be done only through dialogue," Azad told reporters here.

About five-six years ago, the people of Jammu and Kashmir realised that the state's economy had come to tatters following violence, he said.

"But had they understood this 20 years ago, there wouldn't have been any bloodshed," he said.

Reaching out to the ultra-left wing extremism in Jharkhand, he called upon the naxalites to shun the path of violence.

"Drop your guns. Come forward for talks and you will get justice and solutions to all problems. Violence is not good for anybody," he said


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## EjazR

*Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - CBI submits 2 boxfuls of records to CJM*

*Ishfaq Tantry*
Srinagar, Dec 15: A day after submitting its report on Shopian investigations before High Court, CBI Tuesday produced all the records pertaining to the case before Chief Judicial Magistrate, Srinagar. The court, however, adjourned the case without fixing next date of hearing.

On December 10, CBI had produced challan against 13 accused persons before CJM Srinagar, Mohammad Ibrahim. Accordingly, the CJM had listed the case for today (December 15) and directed CBI to produce the relevant records of the case in the court.
Complying with the Court orders, a CBI team comprising Chief Investigating officer Sanjay and CBI Counsel Advocate Anil Bhan produced all the records and evidence material of the case to the CJM court in &#8220;two sealed steel trunks&#8221;.
The material produced by the CBI includes case diaries, video evidence, clothes of deceased women and other incriminating material. Besides, the charge sheet, CBI also produced video evidence, photographs and other evidence material in the court.
Sources said CJM took the record and other evidence material under his possession. They said it will take the court long time to study and go through the material.
They said CJM later adjourned the case without fixing next date of hearing.
Talking to Rising Kashmir in Sadder Court Complex, CBI counsel Advocate Anil Bhan confirmed that the investigative agency submitted the records to CJM Srinagar in two sealed boxes.
In the 66 page charge sheet produced by CBI, the investigating agency has named 13 persons as accused. They include Dr. Nighat Shaheen, Dr. Ghulam Qadir Sofi, Dr. Mohammad Maqbool Mir, Dr. Ghulam Mohammad Paul,Dr. Bilal Ahmad Dalal, Dr. Nazia Hassan, Dr. Advocate Abdul Majid Mir, ( Shopian Bar President), Advocate Mushtaq Ahmad Gattoo ( Public prosecutor), Mohammad Yousuf Bhat, Advocate Mohammad Altaf, Advocate Sheikh Mubarak, Ali Mohammad Sheikh (civilian) and Zahoor Ahmad Ahangar ( brother of Shakeel Ahangar, husband of one of the victim Neelofar).
The 13 persons have been charged under section 120-B RPC, 167, 193, 194, 195 A RPC and substantive offences under section 167, 193, 194 and 195 A RPC.
The CBI presented its final report about the Shopian investigations before High Court on Monday. In the report, CBI had termed the Shopian case as a &#8220;drowning incident&#8221; and ruled out rape and murder of two women &#8211; Asiya and Neelofar.
The agency has based its conclusion on the opinion of the AIIMS Medical Board, which carried out the exhumation of the bodies of the victims on September 28.
The CBI report has charged the doctors and lawyers for &#8216;fabricating the evidence&#8217;.

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## Iggy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Azad Kashmir is autonomous territory till a resolution of the dispute. If the J&K dispute is resolved in favor of Pakistan in accordance with the UNSC resolutions, then J&K would be a province in Pakistan, and we would negotiate the degree of autonomy/central control with the Kashmiri population.
> 
> If Kashmir is resolved in any other fashion, Azad Kashmir stands dissolved and the conditions of whatever solution has been arrived at apply.
> 
> I fail to see how this is in any way 'fooling the Kashmiris or the world' - the fact is that Pakistan stands for implementing the UNSC resolutions giving them the right to self-determination and uniting divided Kashmir whereas India stands against all of that.



Simple question Agno..how many of those so called freedom fighters who come from across the border knows about it?that Kashmir has only 2 option left either be with India or be with Pakistan?and also Independent Kashmir is only a myth ..

Independent Kashmir the only option: Pakistan: Rediff.com India News

look at the statement made by your Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit.. and also look at the statement made by Jammu and Kashmir Democratic Freedom Party chief Shabbir Ahmed

'I dream of an independent Kashmir'

They all are talking about Independent Kashmir ...and also surprise to see every one in Pakistani politics says only about Kashmir's freedom than Kashmir has to choose between India and Pakistan..


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## EjazR

Well the court has not given its final verdict yet. As the the Judge said, these are just CBI findings, it has to be analysed and accepted/rejected based on that. Unfortuantely there will be a section who will never be convinved and it gives people like Geelani and Co. to flame passions. 

Just yesterday there was a report of another young girl being shot dead by militants(*Rising Kashmir,- Woman shot dead*), the fourth women killed this year and there are eye witnesses for this. Last year there was a case of Asrar Mustaque being murdered by security forces and a week long bandh. Later it was found out that it was his own friend who killed him out of jealously for a girl.

Even this strike call is hardly widspread across the valley. Its always in the border districts of shopian and baramulla and parts of Srinagar. In Hazrat bal for example life is routine. Even if some people want to protest, thats fine as long as they don't indulge in violence.

I don't understand why the doctors who were part of the Majlis group and present when AIIMS doctors were doing the autopsy don't say anything. The autopsy was not done by the CBI. It was done by an independant body and Majlis doctors were present. These doctors are keeping quiet when they should clearly say wether facts like the younger victim was a virgin or not are pretty straightforward.

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## FreekiN

Same thing with Afghanistan in the 70's 80's time. One Muslim fights, every Muslim fights.


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## rajeev

FreekiN said:


> Same thing with Afghanistan in the 70's 80's time. One Muslim fights, every Muslim fights.



So, you are saying that there is no need for reason. Just because one jumps into well, everyone else does! Does that make any sense?

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## Iggy

FreekiN said:


> Same thing with Afghanistan in the 70's 80's time. One Muslim fights, every Muslim fights.



So it means that they are not freedom fighters but just a bunch of terrorists right?


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## EjazR

_Dr. Shabir Choudry is was a founding member of JKLF and was born in Nakker Shamali (near Panjeri) in District Bhimbe in Pakistani Kashmir. He now speaks for KNP which is part of the umbrella alliance of parties under All Parties National Aliance advocating for an independant J&K mainly active in Pakistan and UK._

*Kashmiri Struggle In 2008 By Dr Shabir Choudhry*
New phase of the Kashmiri struggle or whatever we want to call it in view of communalism, proxy war and terrorism, has been going on since 1947; and yet we people of Jammu and Kashmir have not been able to put our priorities right. We have not been able to differentiate between freedom and occupation. We have also failed to understand designs of both countries on Kashmir, and formulate appropriate policies to promote and advance a Kashmiri interest.

In view of the above can we make a valid claim to get independence and be recognised as a free nation and play our due role in comity of nations, especially when what are known as Kashmiri leaders, at best have been acting as puppets of either one country or the other and promoting and defending interest of either India or Pakistan?

Despite lack of democracy and encroachment of civil liberties the State of Jammu and Kashmir was one political entity in 1947. People of the State irrespective of their religious and cultural affiliations regarded themselves as Kashmiris, distinctly different from India and Pakistan; and wanted to maintain that difference.

Today the unfortunate State is forcibly divided in many parts, and people of the State are divided on religious, cultural, regional and ethnic lines. These divisions have never been so deep and so frightening in the history of the State, and it looks that those powers who are behind these moves are paving the way for the division of the state on communal and regional lines.

Call it armed struggle, jihad, terrorism or a proxy war it destroyed fundamental character of the Kashmiri society, and Kashmiri struggle for right of self determination. This armed struggle which was initiated, supported and promoted by secret agencies of Pakistan resulted in human rights violations and deepened the divisions in the Kashmiri society.

In this struggle a Pakistani gun and agenda was implemented by using a Kashmiri shoulder. It was presented to us by Pakistan and Kashmiri leadership as a Kashmiri struggle for liberation; and with hindsight we see that we Kashmiris were used as a raw material in this proxy war, and it added to our misery and suffering.

A few days ago a 'friend' who is still part of controversial nationalist group of JKLF invited me to take part in a picket outside an Indian High Commission on 15th August. According to him it was to demonstrate that India got independence on this date and they have occupied our country - Jammu and Kashmir. I said to him that Pakistan got independence one day before India, and Pakistan has also occupied some parts of Jammu and Kashmir; wouldn't it be better to have a demonstration outside Pakistani High Commission first followed by one outside the Indian High Commission.

This friend said, how can we have a demonstration outside Pakistani High Commission, they are helping us against Indian occupation, can't you see how the Indian army has killed innocent people who were peacefully proceeding towards LOC. I said to him that I condemned this brutal killing. There was no need to kill and torture people like that, but the Pakistani army did the same thing in1992 and more than 8 innocent people lost their lives.

I explained to him that in 1992 the JKLF people tried to cross the LOC from the AJK side and they were also innocent and wanted to proceed to the LOC peacefully, they were killed by the Pakistani army. Prior to this tragedy, National Students Federation members who were trying to cross the LOC were also killed and tortured by the Pakistan army. When it comes to enforcing 'law and order' or enforcing 'writ of government' army is trained to kill and torture, as it is happening in Jammu and Kashmir and in Swat, Balochistan, North West Frontier and FATA; or as it happened when Red Mosque was invaded and destroyed in name of enforcing 'writ of government'.

I further said India virtually lost Kashmir Valley in 1990/1, however despite other heavy handedness India did not use helicopter gun ships or air force against Muslim militants; in Pakistan on the other hand helicopter gun ships and F 16 are regularly used to target alleged Muslim 'terrorists' in which innocent Pakistani Muslims are killed and their houses are destroyed. If you need any further evidence how Pakistani forces behave when asked to deal with 'rebels' or with those who demand rights then read history of East Pakistan or Bangladesh; or even ask members of Jammu and Kashmir Plebiscite Front how they were treated in 1970/1 during investigations regarding Ganga Hijacking.

I said without being pro this or anti that one can see a nation whose leadership takes pride in 'selling' their (Pakistani) sons and daughters for sake of American dollars, just take example of Dr Afia Sadiqqi who was arrested in Karachi with her three young children and has ended up in America, and where - about of her three young children is still not known. Do you expect any mercy or better treatment from rulers and establishment of this country? If they treat their own people like butchers and regard them as an economic commodity don't expect that they will treat us Kashmiris differently.

Knowledge of this friend was limited and he was having difficulty in justifying his argument, so he surrendered by saying that he could not compete with me in knowledge and argument. He said he was a loyal member of the JKLF and wanted to follow the party decision and the JKLF leaders. I appreciated his 'loyalty' but added that loyalty of his leaders is not with the JKLF or its ideology. Their loyalty is with agencies of our neighbours who reward them handsomely.

I said decision to hold a picket outside an Indian High commission was taken else where but only endorsed in your meeting. Your leadership discussed it with relevant quarters, agreed certain terms and conditions and then brought this issue to your meeting to be approved. Normally committee of personal and party loyalists do not disagree with any decision which is presented to them as approved by the top leadership, especially there is always hundred per cent unanimity when any actions is related to India.

This friend agreed with almost everything I said, but added that 'you have always been critical of top JKLF leadership and Pakistan. And now that I have left the JKLF I should not criticise JKLF and its policies, as it hurts us and that we will also criticise you and make allegations against you'.

Whether he or some one else criticise me or not it is immaterial, what is important is the attitude of the Kashmiri people and especially that of 'nationalist' parties. It is unfortunate to note that despite this long struggle, sacrifices, and suffering on massive scale we as a nation have not been able to decide our priorities. We Kashmiris still have not been able to decide who is enemy of our independence and who is deceiving us in name of religion and brotherhood. It is unfortunate that many of us still view Kashmir dispute in the context of Muslims and non Muslims, and accept whatever is presented to us by media and organisations controlled by Islamabad.

My colleagues and I have always regarded Jammu and Kashmir as one political entity, and have promoted cause of united and independent Kashmir, and advanced non - communal politics as Kashmir dispute is not a religious one. But it is unfortunate to note that in 2008 we Kashmiris are more divided and more communalised then we were in 1947; and gulf between the regions and communities is widening.

Jammu and the Valley have different priorities and are playing into the hands of those who want to play a religious card in order to divide the people on communal lines and advance their politics. Ladakh apart from the 'Kargil war' has not been affected by the militancy; and has different agenda and has no interest with what is going on in other two regions. Azad Kashmir and Gilgit and Baltistan have no contact with each other and have different priorities and interests. People of Azad Kashmir, forgetting their own miseries and problems are seemed to be more concerned with what goes on across the LOC, and virtually accept everything what is presented to them by the Pakistani media.

By promoting religious politics are we not playing into the hands of extremists who want to justify Two Nations Theory that Muslims and non Muslims cannot live together, hence pave way for division of the State of Jammu and Kashmir on religious lines.

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## EjazR

*Forensic tests, witnesses indicate Shopian victims drowned: CBI | TwoCircles.net*

By IANS,

New Delhi: The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI), which ruled out that the two women found dead in Kashmir's Shopian town were raped or murdered, said forensic tests and testimonies of those who found the bodies prove the victims drowned accidentally while crossing a water channel without using the bridge.

In its 66-page probe report submitted to the Jammu and Kashmir High Court Monday, the CBI said the two women - Neelofar Jan, 22, and her 17-year-old sister-in-law Asiya Jan - died due to accidental drowning in Rambiara Nallah (drain) near Zawoora Bridge May 29. Also, there was no evidence of suicidal drowning as no note or motive has emerged.

*"Neelofar and Asiya Jan both left their Bongam house around 5.15 p.m. for their orchard in Nagbal May 29. They were seen by Dilshada around 7 p.m. descending from the road passing in front of her house, into a water spring located in the dry part of the Rambiara Nallah. Dilshada offered them tea but they refused, saying that they had already gotten late and were in a hurry."*

*"There are three routes commonly used between Bongam and Nagbal, located on the other side of the nallah. The time taken on shortest route, which involved crossing the nallah directly without using any bridge is 28 minutes. Since the time taken crossing the river directly takes the least amount of time, any person is likely to attempt to reach Bongam from Nagbal taking this route. The water discharge in the nallah was very high at that time," the report added.*

The CBI said a woman called Zana Ahmad noticed mud in the nostrils of Neelofar when her body was recovered.

"Witnesses Javed Malik and Mohammed Ismail Sheikh noticed sand in the undergarments of both Neelofar and Asiya respectively. The presence of mud and sand in the bodies of the deceased and its matching with the control earth sample is indicative of the fact their death occurred due to drowning," the report said.

Post-mortem examinations and forensic tests conducted by the team of All India Institute of Medical Science (AIIMS) and the Central Forensic Science Laboratory (CFSL) concluded that Asiya Jan died due to asphyxia as a result of ante-mortem drowning.

"There was nothing suggestive of penetration of any penis-like object through the hymeneal opening as the hymen was found intact. Neelofar Jan's death was also caused due to asphyxia as a result of anti-mortem drowning. There were no external ante-mortem injuries on the body," the CBI report, a copy of which is with IANS, said.

The report named five advocates - Abdul Majid Mir, Mushtaq Ahmad Gatoo, Mohammad Yusuf Bhat, Sheikh Mubarak and Altaf Ahmad -* for threatening Ghulam Mohiuddin and Abdul Rashid Pampori to give false statements before the Jan Commission as well as investigating agencies. The lawyers also offered some inducements to Mohiuddin and Rahid to lie before everyone.*

According to the CBI, both Mohiuddin and Rashid gave false statements that they had seen a blue coloured Tata 407 police vehicle parked near Zawoora Bridge with some masked uniformed police personnel standing there and heard cries of women for help from the vehicle.

The investigating agency said all such police vehicles of Shopian were examined but no indication corroborating the statements of these two was obtained.

The CBI said they questioned personnel of the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), deployed near the Zawoora Bridge, Special Operation Group and local policemen on duty, but no one noticed any untoward incident near the Rambiara Nallah May 29.

The people who regularly visit the area as well villagers of Deegam, Nagbal, Batpora, Geerwar and Arhama were also questioned but everyone denied seeing any untoward incident, the CBI said.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

seiko said:


> So it means that they are not freedom fighters but just a bunch of terrorists right?



Don't remember the Mujahideen from across the world fighting Soviet occupation ever being called 'terrorists' or the US a 'State Sponsor of terrorism' for funding, training and equipping those 'freedom fighters'.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

seiko said:


> Simple question Agno..how many of those so called freedom fighters who come from across the border knows about it?that Kashmir has only 2 option left either be with India or be with Pakistan?and also Independent Kashmir is only a myth ..
> 
> Independent Kashmir the only option: Pakistan: Rediff.com India News
> 
> look at the statement made by your Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit.. and also look at the statement made by Jammu and Kashmir Democratic Freedom Party chief Shabbir Ahmed
> 
> 'I dream of an independent Kashmir'
> 
> They all are talking about Independent Kashmir ...and also surprise to see every one in Pakistani politics says only about Kashmir's freedom than Kashmir has to choose between India and Pakistan..


Are you expecting me to conduct polling amongst the freedom fighters? This is common knowledge is it not?

On Basit's comments - they more than likely indicate that the hitherto unofficial position of looking at an independent Kashmir as a compromise solution is now becoming an official compromise position.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

bandit said:


> India had a claim because it has a legal document signed by the ruling authority in the state, Pakistan has no claim until the plebiscite happens and the people choose it in the vote. Till then it is just meddling in foreign affairs.
> UN resolution states that it is India that has to administer the plebiscite, recognizing its claim on the state, Pakistan is recognized as the aggressor and needs to get out before anything to proceed. That much is pretty clear from the texts and not your claims.



That is incorrect and we had this long debate in the UNSC resolutions thread already - pick it up there if you want to continue it. I'll only say here that you cannot pick and choose which UNSC resolution you want, based on how well it suits your POV. 

UNSC resolutions supersede earlier resolutions, if different, and the latter resolutions quite clearly did away with any unilateral withdrawal on the part of Pakistan or trusting India with holding a plebiscite in the territory.

But as I said, this discussion has been had before, and can be continued on the appropriate threads. Stay on topic here.


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## Hulk

I do not have the details of the stream and how deep it was, but here is why I think CBI will not cover up.
1) CBI was reluctant to take the case but was forced by CM of j&k. They knew that people want someone to be named. 
2) GOI does not have any reason to cover up. No one has any personal interest if any policemen get caught. Why will they try it when they know it is going to go well with people. GOI per my knowledge does not leave any effort to please people of j&k. 
3) The officers on whom the suspesion is raised are from state itself, why blame GOI. 
4) It is not uncommon that agency could not find any evidence or proof, if Pakistan cannot solve BB's case so we also have our share. 

I also heard rumors that they called people on Phone etc. It was later found no one had mobile. Also why the doctor claimed rape when one of them was virgin.


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## FreekiN

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Don't remember the Mujahideen from across the world fighting Soviet occupation ever being called 'terrorists' or the US a 'State Sponsor of terrorism' for funding, training and equipping those 'freedom fighters'.



This is what i meant.


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## Hulk

khalidali said:


> My question to you is that if the doc can change the statement (as mentioned) under pressure once what are the chances that now is not the case.



This could be possible but there is absolutly no gain for GOI in doing so. At the same history of Kashmir say these guys take to street on petty issues and hence they being under pressure against GOI is not digestible. A similar incidence at same was conclusivly proved fake.


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## Spitfighter

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Azad Kashmir is autonomous territory till a resolution of the dispute. If the J&K dispute is resolved in favor of Pakistan in accordance with the UNSC resolutions, then J&K would be a province in Pakistan, and we would negotiate the degree of autonomy/central control with the Kashmiri population.
> 
> If Kashmir is resolved in any other fashion, Azad Kashmir stands dissolved and the conditions of whatever solution has been arrived at apply.
> 
> I fail to see how this is in any way 'fooling the Kashmiris or the world' *- the fact is that Pakistan stands for implementing the UNSC resolutions giving them the right to self-determination and uniting divided Kashmir whereas India stands against all of that.*



Really? then explain the following..

*why hasn't Pakistan pulled its troops out from AK? *

Why did Pakistan cross the LoC in 1965? 

Why did Pakistan cross the LoC in 1999? 

What part of the UNSC resolutions has Pakistan implemented over the last 60 years? 

How can you be so sure about Pakistan's intentions of 'uniting divided Kashmir' if Pakistan has repeatedly failed to do what it asks of India? 

Direct me to the right thread if this isn't the place, and do address the above questions. Regardless of whether a unilateral withdrawal is required or not, Pakistan violated the resolutions twice, in 65 and 99.


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I read your post, there is little difference in suggesting the separatist sentiment is artificially created or does not exist in the context of your arguments. You are merely obfuscating and distorting the issue.


I will gladly listen to your explanation as to why 'artificially generated separatist sentiments' is same as 'lack of popular support for separatist sentiments', and in what context these become different. 



> Providing funding and support to a popular political movement does not prove that the movement is not popular, or for that matter prove that the movement is popular - your argument is illogical.


Strawman. I never questioned the popularity, which you keep on implying. I understand that you have to stick with this line of argument, because otherwise your argument falls apart.



> Accepted and endorsed by the UNSC and India through its acceptance of the UNSC resolutions.


Not really. UNSC and India have never accepted that Pakistan has a claim. What has been accepted is that Kashimiris will be given an option to decide, to which country they would want to accede their land, once certain conditions are fulfilled. It doesn't give Pakistan any claim. It gives Kashmiris a claim.



> More nonsensical verbosity and quibbling over semantics. Any 'issue' being supported is championed by leadership and entities wedded to the cause of that issue - issues themselves don't develop bodies, arms and legs and go propagate and promote themselves.
> 
> So when an issue is supported the leadership and entities championing that issue and cause are the ones supported - one doesn't drop money f.rom an airplane over Kashmir and just hope 'the issue is supported', nor are you going to see a political poster sprout legs and arms and go chanting and waving in support of 'the issue'.


Nonsense.

What you are deliberately refusing to address is, whether funding of a movement, whatever that movement be, by an interested party makes the movement tainted or not? For example, if a pro-tobacco movement be credible if it is sponsored by tobacco companies. Or if an argument for liberal corporate tax law be credible if the political party pushing it is sponsored by the corporates who benefit from such law. It shouldn't be too difficult to wrap your head around that.



> So give your nonsensical argument a rest.


Hope you intend to practice what you preach.



> Dialog and progress on Kashmir by India, since Nehru backtracked on his commitment to the UNSC resolutions and the plebiscite, unless to perpetuate its occupation, has always been out of the question. So this position you articulate is not exactly something new.


It was Pakistani leadership that backtracked on implementing UNSC resolution, that called for unilateral withdrawal of 'tribesmen and Pakistani citizen'. Our commitment was conditional to that, and other factors. None got fulfilled and hence no plebiscite.

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## toxic_pus

Spitfighter said:


> Regardless of whether a unilateral withdrawal is required or not, Pakistan violated the resolutions twice, in 65 and 99.


Additionally, by fomenting armed rebellion, Paksitan has violated the Cease Fire agreement which states:

_The High Commands of Indian and Pakistan forces agreed to *refrain from taking any measures that might augment the military potential of the forces under their contro*l in the State of Jammu and Kashmir. (For the purpose of these proposals "forces under their control shall be considered to include all forces, organized and unorganized, fighting or participating in hostilities on their respective sides). _

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## Peshwa

Spitfighter said:


> Really? then explain the following..
> 
> *why hasn't Pakistan pulled its troops out from AK? *
> 
> Why did Pakistan cross the LoC in 1965?
> 
> Why did Pakistan cross the LoC in 1999?
> 
> What part of the UNSC resolutions has Pakistan implemented over the last 60 years?
> 
> How can you be so sure about Pakistan's intentions of 'uniting divided Kashmir' if Pakistan has repeatedly failed to do what it asks of India?
> 
> Direct me to the right thread if this isn't the place, and do address the above questions. Regardless of whether a unilateral withdrawal is required or not, Pakistan violated the resolutions twice, in 65 and 99.




Spitfire,

Not to be forgotten is the Shimla agreement, another UN agreement between India and Pakistan that has been violated time and again by the Pakistani establishment...This being just one of the many instances....please read some of the salient points of this document:

"(ii) That the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations or by any other peaceful means mutually agreed upon between them. *Pending the final settlement of any of the problems between the two countries, neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation and both shall prevent the organisation, assistance or encouragement of any acts detrimental to the maintenance of peace and harmonious relations*."

"(iii) That the prerequisite for reconciliation, good neighbourliness and durable peace between them is a commitment by both the countries to peaceful coexistence respect for each other's territorial integrity and sovereignty and *noninterference in each other's internal affairs, on the basis of equality and mutual benefit."*

"(vi) That in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, they will refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of each other."

_Pakistan has been aiding and abbeting rebellion in Kashmir by providing funds, arms and training to seperatist groups. This includes not just the Kashmiri's, but Khalistani groups as well.....
Kargil incidence is another such example of the above
India has honored the treaty and since the war of '71 (After the act of supporting the freedom fighters of Mukti Bahini), India has not played Proxy games against Pakistan (True until proven otherwise)
Pakistanis should not be lecturing Indians about "honoring UN resolutions" when a treaty with India has been broken at the cost of innocent blood!!
_

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## Aslan

indianrabbit said:


> This could be possible but there is absolutly no gain for GOI in doing so. At the same history of Kashmir say these guys take to street on petty issues and hence they being under pressure against GOI is not digestible. A similar incidence at same was conclusivly proved fake.



Well lets just wait and see what comes out, because one thing is for sure that our gov's are corrupt. And they will do any thing to hide the incompetence that comes out during their rule. So lets wait and see, and may justice prevail. We shouldn't look at these cases on patriotic lines if the crime was committed then no matter who it was either the COAS or a petty soldier they deserved to be punished.


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## Halaku Khan

EjazR said:


> Just yesterday there was a report of another young girl being shot dead by militants(*Rising Kashmir,- Woman shot dead*), the fourth women killed this year and there are eye witnesses for this.



A video report on this horrific incident: *Girl shot by terrorist in front of father-News-Videos-The Times of India*

Apparently the young woman was shot 5 times in front of her own family while they were having dinner at home.


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## ssheppard

Halaku Khan said:


> A video report on this horrific incident: *Girl shot by terrorist in front of father-News-Videos-The Times of India*
> 
> Apparently the young woman was shot 5 times in front of her own family while they were having dinner at home.



Lets see if these so called activists call for a bandh...and condemn...this murder....but I am sure these buggers only focus on maligning Security forces......bloody Pakistan funded hypocrites. 


But wait... before any Pakistani poster comes up and shouts...let me do the honors....
"This is a conspiracy by RAW....to degrade Kashmiri freedome movement...."


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## EjazR

pagans said:


> ???Just more propaganda by Separatists to hate India and Hindus. Who said raja was autocratic and when did NC became secular ?



Yes his rule was autocratic and this is offcial GoI narrative. The poor Hindu Muslim and Sikh Kashmiris suffered under his rule while he lived in pomp and splendor. This was characteristic of almost all raja Mahrajas, Nawabs and Kings of that time. Obviously his rule was not democratic. Moreover, NC led the people's movement for all Kashmiris and J&K became the first state in Independent India to pass land reforms and give land to the landless.


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## EjazR

I thought I would post the official GoI narrative as well for comparison. This is taken from the Jammu and Kashmir website
*
J & K : A Historical Perspective*

*History*
Jammu and Kashmir came into being as a single political and geographical entity following the Treaty of Amristar between the British Government and Gulab singh signed on March 16, 1846. The Treaty handed over the control of the Kashmir State to the Dogra ruler of Jammu who had earlier annexed Ladakh. Thus a new State comprising three distinct religions of Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh was formed with Maharaja Gulab Singh as its founder ruler. The feudal dispensation in the State, however, was too harsh for the people to live under and towards the end of a hundred years of this rule when their Indian brethren were fighting for independence from the British under the inspiring leadership of Mahatma Gandhi and Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru, the Kashmiris led by a towering personality, the Sher-I-Kashmir Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah, rose against the autocracy. The autocratic rule came down heavily on the people&#8217;s freedom movement. However, the people laid their lives in the cause of freedom and to uphold the ideals of secularism, equality, democracy and brotherhood.

The high point of the movement was July 13, 1931 when 22 protesters were martyred. The event strengthened the movement and contrary to the expectations of the then rulers, the peopled emerged more determined in their resolution to seek an end to autocratic rule. By the time the rulers could realise the futility of breaking the will of the people with the might of the State, the National Conference, headed by Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah, had become a mass movement and a force to reckon with. It broke the barriers of region and religion and became a popular and secular voice of the people of the State whose collective yearning was freedom from autocracy and the establishment of a popular rule. The people&#8217;s movement spearheaded by the National Conference saw several ups and downs with its leaders particularly the Sher-I-Kashmir suffering vissitudes and long internment. 


*Accession*
Jammu and Kashmir was one of about 565 princely States of India on which the British paramountcy lapsed at the stroke of midnight on August 15, 1947. While the power was transferred to the people in British India, the rulers of the princely States were given an option to join either of the two Dominions &#8211; India or Pakistan.

The Government of India Act 1935, as adopted in the Indian Independence Act, 1947, provided, "An Indian State shall be deemed to have acceded to the Dominion if the Governor General has signified the acceptance of an Instrument of Accession executed by the rule thereof." India, Pakistan and even Britain were party to these provisions. So the choice of joining either of the Dominions was left to the Rulers of the States concerned. Moreover, in the Indian Independence Act, 1947, there was no provision for any conditional accession. 

The Ruler of Jammu and Kashmir, Maharaja Hari Singh did not exercise the option immediately and instead offered a proposal of Standstill Agreement to both the Dominion, pending final decision on State&#8217;s accession. On August 12, 1947, the Prime Minister of Jammu and Kashmir sent identical communications to the Government of India and Pakistan which read, "Jammu and Kashmir Government would welcome Standstill Agreement with Union of India/Pakistan on all matters on which there exists arrangements with the outgoing British India Government." Pakistan accepted the offer and sent a communication to J&K Prime Minster on August 15, 1947. It read, "The Government of Pakistan agrees to have Standstill Agreement with Jammu and Kashmir for the continuation of existing arrangements &#8230;". India did not agree to the offer and advised the Maharaja to send his authorized representative to Delhi for discussion on the offer. 

*The Story Behind*
Pakistan, though entered into Standstill Agreement, had an eye on Jammu and Kashmir. Even before the lapse of the British paramountcy on J&K, Mr.Mohammed Ali Jinnah, author of two-nation theory, had plans to grab the Paradise on Earth. He had once boastfully declared that "Kashmir is blank cheque in my pocket." The Pakistan&#8217;s designs on Kashmir could be well judged from the comments appearing on August 24, 1947 issue of its semi-official daily Dawn, "&#8230; the time has come to tell the Maharaja of Kashmir that he must make his choice and choose Pakistan&#8230;. Should Kashmir fail to join Pakistan the gravest possible trouble will inevitably ensue." In his bid to woo Sher-I-Kashmir Sheikh Mohammed Abdullah, the undisputed leader of Kashmir, Mr.Jinnah visited Srinagar a couple of times, but failed to achieve his objective. Even his arrogance and browbeating tactic did not pay him.

The Maharaja was already facing a formidable challenge from the people who had launched the Quit Kashmir movement under the leadership of Sher-I-Kashmir Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah against the autocratic rule. Quit Kashmir movement ran parallel to the national movement with Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah having close association with the leaders of the national movement against British rule. The national leaders like Mahatma Gandhi and Pandit Nehru too espoused the cause of the people of Kashmir seeking political freedom from autocratic rule. To deal with the people&#8217;s upsurge, Maharaja had even detained Sheikh Abdullah on May 20, 1946 for spearheading &#8216;Quit-Kashmir&#8217; movement. Faced with new alarming situation arising out of repeated violations of the Standstill Agreement by Pakistan and blocking of Pindi-Srinagar road, the Maharaja set him free on September 29, 1947. Sher-I-Kashmir, as he was fondly called by the people for his unmatched courage, deputed his close aide Kh.G.M.Sadiq to Pakistan to tell Pak leaders about the sentiments of the people who can not be taken for granted and coerced to join them. This plain speaking did not desist Pak for her designs.

While addressing a mammoth public meeting at Hazuri Bagh, Srinagar on October 1, 1947, Sher-I-Kashmir had made things about the future of the state obvious when he said, "Till the last drop of my blood, I will not believe in two-nation theory." It was yet another rebuff to Mr.Jinnah.Finding their designs on Kashmir not fructifying, Pakistan rulers launched an armed attack on Jammu and Kashmir to annex it. Tribals in thousands alongwith Pak regular troops entered the State on October 22, 1947 from several points and indulged in bloodshed and mayhem. The bewildered people of the estate were not expecting an attack from Pakistan especially in view of the Standstill Agreement.

Bowing before the wishes of the people as reflected by Muslim dominated National Conference and to push back the invaders, the Maharaja signed the Instrument of Accession in favour of India on October 26, 1947 on the prescribed terms and conditions. This was accepted by the Governor General of India, Lord Mountbattan next day. The Instrument of Accession executed by Maharaja Hari Singh was the same which was signed by other rulers of the princely States. Similarly, the acceptance of the Instrument of Accession by the Governor General was also identical in respect of all such instruments. He was to write, "I do hereby accept the Instrument of Accession." It could not be conditional as mere acceptance by the Governor General was complete and final.

With J&K becoming legal and constitutional part of Union of India, the troops were rushed to the state to push back the invaders and vacate aggression from the territory of the state. The first batch of Indian Army troops arrived at Srinagar airport immediately after the Accession was signed. On October 30, 1947 an Emergency Government was formed in the State with Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah as its head. The Army fought sustained battle with the tribals and after several sacrifices pushed them out of the Valley and other areas in the Jammu region.

Meanwhile, the people of Kashmir under the towering leadership of Sher-I-Kashmir were mobilised and they resisted the marching columns of the enemy. Till the arrival of the troops, it were mainly the Muslim volunteers under the command of Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah who braved death to push back invaders. Lt.General P.C.Sen who as Brigadier functioned as Commander of 161 Infantry Brigade in Srinagar during 1947-48, wrote in his book, &#8216;Slander was the Thread&#8217;, "These volunteers moved across the mountains and forests with speed and gave accurate information the army about enemy&#8217;s strength, location and movements". While the army pushed back the invaders, there are several instances where people put up a gallant resistance and stopped the advance of the invaders. The most glaring examples of people&#8217;s resistance was the martyrdom of Mohammad Maqbool Sherwani and Master Abdul Aziz.

Shaheed Sherwani, a staunch follower of Sher-I-Kashmir, did not oblige the invaders when they enquired from him the route to Srinagar. Instead, he put them on a wrong track gaining time for troops to come. Somehow the tribesmen came to know about his tactics and nailed him at a Baramulla crossing and asked him to raise pro-Pakistan slogans. He did raise slogans but these were different. These were pro-Hindu Muslim amity and in favour of Sher-I-Kashmir. Engaged by this, the ruthless tribesmen emptied their guns on him.

The sacrifice of Master Abdul Aziz too was exemplary. The invaders who raped the nuns and wanted other non-Muslim women to handed over to them, Master Abdul Aziz, a tailor by profession, held the holy Quran in his hand and said that they can touch the women only over his dead body and the holy Quran. The brutal killers did not spare him.

On January 1, 1948 India took up the issue of Pak aggression in Jammu and Kashmir in UNO under Article 35 of its charter. The Government of India in its letter to the Security Council said, "&#8230;Such a situation now exists between India and Pakistan owing to the aid which invaders, consisting of nationals of Pakistan and tribesmen&#8230; are drawing from Pakistan for operations against Jammu and Kashmir, a State which has acceded to the Dominion of India and is part of India. The Government of India requests the Security Council to call upon Pakistan to put an end immediately to the giving of such assistance which is an act of aggression against India. If Pakistan does not do so, the Government of India may be compelled, in self defence, to enter into Pakistan territory to take military action against the invaders." After long debates, cease-fire came into operation on the midnight of January 1, 1949. Presence of Pak regular troops in the Valley was attested even by UNCIP documents (UNCIP first report).

At the time of cease-fire, Pakistan was holding 78114 sq.Kms illegally and this aggression on that territory continues even today. On March 5, 1948, the Maharaja announced the formation of an interim popular Government with Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah as the Prime Minister. Subsequently, the Maharaja signed a proclamation making Yuvraj Karan Singh as the Regent. 

During one of the debates in UN Security Council on February 5, 1948, Sher-I-Kashmir, said "aggression and not the accession is the issue." The Security council, however, passed a resolution on plebiscite in Jammu and Kashmir subject to certain conditions. The resolution had three parts, one relating to cease-fire while the second, the most important and relevant, was a truce agreement which provided the mechanism for plebiscite. As per the agreement, Pakistan Government agreed to withdraw its troops from the State and undertake to secure the withdrawal of its tribesmen and nationals who had invaded the State. The territory thus evacuated by the Pakistani troops would be administered by local authorities under the surveillance of UN Commission for India and Pakistan.

The second part of this agreement related to the obligation of Government of India which would have come into force after Pakistan had fulfilled its obligation in part A of the agreement and thereby terminated the situation which occasioned the presence of Indian troops. On being notified that Pakistan had withdrawn its forces, the Government of India would begin withdrawal of bulk of its forces in stages but she will maintain the minimum strength of its forces necessary for law and order with the Commission stationing its observers.

The third part related to reaffirmation of both the countries to determine the wish of the people.

Pakistan, knowing well the fate of such plebiscite at that time did not take any step to fulfil its obligations under the agreement and continued to hold the territory of the State illegally and forcefully even today. The issue plebiscite was linked with the condition of withdrawal of Pakistani forces and tribesmen from the occupied territory of the state which it never fulfilled, making the resolution absolutely irrelevant. On the other hand, J&K after attaining political freedom, marched ahead to strengthen democratic structure. Moreover, the truce agreement on plebiscite was superseded by the Shimla Agreement between India and Pakistan signed on July 3, 1972 itself, the two countries undertook to resolve all differences bilaterally and peacefully. Pakistan, through its commitments enshrined in this Agreement, accepted the need to once and for all shift the Kashmir question from the UN to the bilateral plane. 

In 1951, the State Constituent Assembly was elected by the people. The Assembly met for the first time in Srinagar on October 31, 1951. Close on the heels of this, the Delhi Agreement was signed between the two Prime Ministers of India and Jammu and Kashmir giving special position to the State under the Indian Constitutional framework. The Constituent Assembly elected the Yuvraj as the Sadar-I-Riyasat on November 15, 1952, thus bringing to end the 106 year old hereditary rule in Jammu and Kashmir. The State Constituent Assembly ratified the accession of the State to the Union of India on February 6, 1954 and the President of India subsequently issued the Constitution (Application to J&K) Order under Article 370 of the Indian Constitution extending the Union Constitution to the State with some exceptions and modifications. The State&#8217;s own Constitution came into force on January 26, 1957 under which the elections to the State Legislative Assembly were held for the first time on the basis of adult franchise the same year. This Constitution ratified the State&#8217;s accession to Union of India. Section 3 of the Constitution makes this historic fact a reality. This section 3 of the Constitution says, "The Sate of Jammu and Kashmir is and shall be an integral part of the Union of India." The Section 4 of the Constitution defined the territories which on the fifteenth day f August, 1947, were under the sovereignty of suzerainty of the Ruler of the State." Since then eight assembly elections have been held in the state besides Lok Sabha elections where the people exercised their franchise freely.

While the people of the state continue to march ahead for socio-economic emancipation as per the Naya Kashmir charter for better quality of life, Pakistan continued with her plans to grab Kashmir through force. Pakistan waged two wars in 1965 and 1971 to annex Kashmir but the people gave her befitting reply and repulsed her attacks with the help of army like they did in 1947-48. Failing to match India&#8217;s military power, it launched a low intensity war through militancy in 1990 which took a toll of 20,000 human lives besides destroying private and public property.
*
The Official Website of Jammu & Kashmir Government, India- J & K : A Historical Perspective*

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## Khajur

taimikhan said:


> *Hisory of Jammu and Kashmir *
> 
> *Was it an unqualified accession to India?*
> 
> On 27 October, while accepting the instrument of accession, Mountbatten the British Governor General of India after independence wrote back:
> 
> *"... It is my Government's wish that, as soon as law and order have been restored in Kashmir and her soil cleared of the invader, the question of the State's accession should be settled by a reference to the people."*
> 
> *On 30 October 1947, Nehru addressed a telegram to Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan saying:*
> 
> *"Our assurance that we shall withdraw our troops from Kashmir as soon as peace and order are restored and leave the decision about the future of the State to the people of the State is not merely a pledge to your Government but also to the people of Kashmir and to the world."
> *
> *On 2 November 1947, in a Radio Broadcast Prime Minister Nehru repeated pledge to hold plebiscite in J&K "under international auspices like the United Nations. So the accession was conditioned with a promise of plebiscite, which was repeated, by the high-level Indian leaders as well as Indian representatives in the United Nations.*
> 
> *However, these promises were never fulfilled.*



Trying to rewrite history ??

Indian army went to kashmir *only after the signing up the instrument of accession *by the maharaha Hari singh.

That instrument of accession was an unconditional accession to union of india by lata Maharaja of Kashmir and remains valid legal instrument till today on the basis of which india states that J&K is an integral part of india.

After the agreement ,indian army faught battle first, with invading pashtun tribals and then with regular PA lead by Gen Akbar Khan,which was repulsed and two third of kashmir recovered before Nehru made the blunder of going to UN and agreeing to a cease fire to *hold plebiscite on the assurance of Shiek Abdulla of NC that he would made sure that kashmir goes to india in that plebiscite*. 

*We know plebiscite never happened because pakistan didnt keep his side of the bargian to withdraw its army and Shiek Abdulla's ambitions which grew over the yrs to support india on the condition that india provides greater autonomy to J&K didnt provide enough confidense to india to hold an uncertain plebiscite which result might endanger its geographicla integrity ,seular fabric its constitution and the lives large numbers of muslim who still live in rest of india after the partition*.


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## syedtalha

WE ARE PAKISTANIS ..

ANYBODY DARE DOUBT IT.

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## DavyJones

India's first PM Mr. Nehru was a Kashmiri.
I want to ask Geelani has he lived in Pakistan ? How is he a Pakistani if he was born in Kashmir (assuming his age - Kashmir was part of Dogra ruler's kingdom) ?
freekin - Nowhere was it written that Muslim majority areas will be Pakistan. The princely states were given the choice to make their decisions independently by the British. Now Kashmir wanted to stay independent - but the Pak raiders forced the hand of the Maharajah. Talking about public opinion - the party of the valley the NC was pro-freedon or pro-India. Sheikh Abdullah and Mr. Neru were good friends. 
The reason why plebicite was not held - not fear. But Pak never took the step of moving out of Kashmir. Step 1 in UN resolutions.
Plebicite seems unlikely today - India won't allow it. Why ? Other states might start asking for independence etc.


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## syedtalha

DavyJones said:


> syedtalha - last i checked Srinagar was in India and not in Kashmir.



i know where srinagar is for god's sake i live here. all u indians need is get ur ***** kicked every time indian army tries to win over our hearts.. my advice... check the cost-benifit ration of ur occupation here>> u'll soon realize it and pack ur bags & leave before u r kicked out.


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## SSG VIPER

PROUD TO BE PAKISTANI
PUNJAB AFGHANIA KASHMIR SINDH BALOUCHISTAN BALTISTAN
WE STAND UNITED


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## Hyde

oh please don't start indo pakistan war again

Just one tip......... free and fair elections in Kashmir.......... see how many percent wants to merge with India and see how many percents want to merge with Pakistan

give that certain percentage to India with the same amount of land and the borders connecting Pakistan give that percentage to Pakistan and ask Kashmir's to chose either country before that deadline....... so migrate peoples and finish this larayi jhagra

it could be a stupid advise but after so many solutions nothing has been resolved this stupid advise might help them out

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## deckingraj

syedtalha said:


> i know where srinagar is for god's sake i live here. all u indians need is get ur ***** kicked every time indian army tries to win over our hearts.. my advice... check the cost-benifit ration of ur occupation here>> u'll soon realize it and pack ur bags & leave before u r kicked out.



With all due respect to your sentiments please do a reality check...We were not kicked out during 65 war...we were not kicked out when militancy was at its peak in Kashmir...We were not kicked out in Kargil...and now when India - the worlds second largest growing economy is growing like anything how on this earth you think we will be kicked out??

My advice check the cost-benefit ration of your protest and you will soon realize that it don't make sense...


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## Iggy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Are you expecting me to conduct polling amongst the freedom fighters? This is common knowledge is it not?
> 
> On Basit's comments - they more than likely indicate that the hitherto unofficial position of looking at an independent Kashmir as a compromise solution is now becoming an official compromise position.



Agno I was saying that all I hear in Kashmir wanted to become an Independent country and your government is encouraging the freedom fighters telling the same thing too..Is this like making a complete fool out of them??


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## Windjammer

Take your pick. !


Kashmir in the United Nations

Kashmir, UN Security Council Resolution 91

UNITED NATIONS INDIA-PAKISTAN OBSERVATION MISSION (UNIPOM) - Background


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## Spitfighter

Windjammer said:


> Take your pick. !
> 
> 
> Kashmir in the United Nations
> 
> Kashmir, UN Security Council Resolution 91
> 
> UNITED NATIONS INDIA-PAKISTAN OBSERVATION MISSION (UNIPOM) - Background



Pakistan has violated the UNSC resolutions on numerous occasions so its rather ironic that you keep citing them to validate your stand. 


Kashmir, UN Security Council Resolution 91 

"(8) Requests the Governments of India and Pakistan to ensure that their cement regarding the
cease-fire shall continue to be faithfully observed and calls them to take all possible measures to
ensure the creation and maintenance of an atmosphere favourable to the promotion of further
negotiations and to refrain from any likely to prejudice a just and peaceful settlement;"

So much for that huh? 

Pakistan has no claim, no stake in Kashmir. India is fully capable of resolving its domestic issues, the GoI is actively involved in talks with every major political group in the region and I am confident that a resolution will be found. If there ever was a government that could resolve the issue, its this one.

Pakistan should desist from interfering in Kashmir. It's sole focus should be the elimination of any and all extremists operating on its soil. 

PS: Do look at the posts above by Peshwa and Toxic pus.


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## Panditji

Whatever is being quoted, does not take away the fact that Pakistan, in direct conflict with it's stated position, is financing secessionist forces and 'supposed voice of the people' unethically, resulting in violence and untold misery for the residents of not just Kashmir but also other regions of J&K.

It flies on the face of the mock outrage expressed by so many on the 'supposed' (read assumed, imagined) financing/support of domestic Pakistani terrorists (TTP) by India.

Pakistan has lost any claim to any high moral ground in the debate.


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## Panditji

Mr X, excellent idea. But J&K (except the unfortunate 'azad' part) does have regular free and fair elections. Only the 'Pakistani at heart and pocket' Hurriyat stays away, because it knows, it would be demolished in the elections, as it has no mass base. So let us just give you the Hurriyat guys, who anyway are on your payroll. Just resettle them in 'azad' J&K, or better still, Pindi/Islamabad, and the issue is over! 

Yes, also please stop pushing in militants to kill innocents. That would be all.

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## Windjammer

Panditji, give it a break and perform an Ashnan, preferably in an ice bath,
Your half million army is oppressing, killing, raping and committing every atrocity in Sangsar, yet you rant Bhashan on maintaining moral grounds.

Ram Ram Panditji, may you fall off your bicycle .!!!


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## Spitfighter

Windjammer said:


> Your half million army is oppressing, killing, raping and committing every atrocity in Sangsar, yet you rant Bhashan on maintaining moral grounds.



Whether it is or isn't shouldn't be of any concern to you.


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## Windjammer

Spitfighter said:


> Whether it is or isn't shouldn't be of any concern to you.



Firstly, who the hell are you to judge, ?

Secondly, When Buddha's of Bunyan were destroyed by Talibans, it got India's attention, and here we are talking about living breathing humans.


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## Hulk

Windjammer said:


> Panditji, give it a break and perform an Ashnan, preferably in an ice bath,
> Your half million army is oppressing, killing, raping and committing every atrocity in Sangsar, yet you rant Bhashan on maintaining moral grounds.
> 
> Ram Ram Panditji, may you fall off your bicycle .!!!



It's been a while since I have been asking the Pakistani's to provide list of Rape done by army in J&K in 2009. The way you guys use rapes it should be atleast 100 cases this year right, but minus one Sophian one which is not yet proved no one has provided second case so far. 

The trouble we are having is clearly due to staged protest. 

Let me give an analogy, if 10 people are living in a house that needs to choose a leader and 2 people want to become. Is it fair that A creates false case that B raped C by buying C. Do you not think the entire house will be against B. 

It's easy to create fake impression, how many people validate it anyways. So many people in Pakistan still believe Kasab is Indian is clear exaple of propaganda succeding.


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## hembo

*Shopian: Wedding plans cut short as militants shoot 21-year-old*
Thu, Dec 17 05:58 AM

Sheeraza Akhtar was looking forward to her wedding in April next year to a boy from the nearby village of Sangam. The conversation on most nights in the family centred around the coming festivities. Till Tuesday, when a militant entered the house of labourer Mohd Maqbool Mir, asked him to point out Sheeraza and then shot the 21-year-old dead.

It was the sixth such incident in this area in the recent past, and the small village of Kellar in Shopian district, hemmed in on all sides by forests, was in a state of shock on Wednesday. Since April this year, unidentified assailants have killed seven civilians, including four women and a three-year-old child.

Mir recalled Sheeraza was serving dinner when the man came into the kitchen at 7.30 pm. "Clad in black phiran, this young man asked my younger daughter her name, then looked at Sheeraza and asked her name. When she told him, the man pumped five bullets into her body," said the 70-year-old, breaking down. "I don't know for what crime my young daughter was killed."

Sheeraza's younger sister Dazy, still to recover from the shock of seeing her sister killed before her eyes, said she didn't utter a word as she lay there dying.

The Class X student recalled that they first believed their brother Tariq, who stays in Delhi, had returned. While the assailant wasn't wearing a mask and speaking Kashmiri, Dazy said they hadn't seen him before.

Neighbours remember Sheeraza as a caring, shy girl who loved her family. "We want to know who is behind this gruesome killing," said Ghulam Ahmad Khan.

Station House Officer, Keller, Farooq Ahmad said they believed three men came to Mir's house on Tuesday evening, and one of them went in and shot Sheeraza as the other two stayed outside on guard. "The killing is the handiwork of militants active in the area," he said.

Sheeraza is the fourth woman to have fallen to bullets of unknown assailants in the past nine months. On April 4, militants had gunned down 60-year-old Reshma Begum near Kellar; on May 30, Sahib-ud-din of the same village was killed by unidentified persons; three days later, 26-year-old Nageena Akhtar was shot in the area; in July, another young woman, Parveena, was killed in similar circumstances; while later that month, Mohd Aslam Awan and his three-year-old son were shot by unknown gunmen in Gujjar Patti Keller.

Both factions of the Hurriyat Conference have condemned such killings.


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## Foster

now why hurriyate members are mum?


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## Hulk

Now you will not see any band called by hurriyat. These people can only protest against GOI since they would not respond. They do not have the guts to protest against militants.


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## Foster

and recently I heard that hurriyat gets money from other side....this shows they care for money not people of kashmir...


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## Khajur

indianrabbit said:


> Now you will not see any band called by hurriyat. These people can only protest against GOI since they would not respond. They do not have the guts to protest against militants.



Hurriyat sell outs are the unarmed wing of the terroists who only protest when they can blame indian security forces .For them terrorists are holy cows and their atrocities are legitimate part of their freedom struggle.


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## ssheppard

Don't you know that this Yooung girl ..was a RAW agent....so she deserved to be killed by the MOFOs....


She must have refused some terrorists Love or Sex Proposal...so he got pissed off..and killed the girl.......

Freedom fighters ...Donkeys azz....


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## Nihat

and the only "Azadi" these MOFO's deserve is exactly what is being dished out by the Army to them.

I hear a couple of pigs have their appointements with hell today , there is an encounter going on in North Kashmir.

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## ssheppard

Sheeraza Akhtar, 20 was the 4th women to be killed by unknown gunmen in last eight months in Kellar, Shopian. Police, however, claimed that she was killed by Hizbul Mujahideen militants.
Since April this year, seven persons including four women, a village head, a kid and his father have been killed in Kellar. 

However, the difference between past killings and that of Sheeraza Akhtar is that police is identifying militants as her assassins whereas in past the killers in police files have been registered as unidentified gunmen.
She was killed by militants owing allegiance to Hizbul Muhajideen. They shot her on chin, chest and abdomen and she died on spot, SP Shopian Shahid Mehraj told Rising Kashmir. 
He said, The militant group is active in the area. We have killed three militants including divisional commander of Hizb. Four militants are still alive and roaming in the area.
The Kellar police station is doing its job, SP said adding the militants are killing people to create fear. 
Another police official said the earlier six killings in Shopian were blamed on unidentified gunmen as the relatives of the victims could not identify the assassins. In Sheerazas case, the family has registered a complaint and blamed militants for the killing, he said.
The past cases are being investigated. Only after completion of investigations can we identify the assassins, the official said. 
However, in all the cases, police is unable to explain the actual motive of the killings.
The killing of civilians has drawn strong criticism from the government. Had it been an act of security forces, there would have been a hue and cry all over, the chief minister, Omar Abdullah had said. 
Interestingly, the area where the killings have taken place is close to police station and an army picket.
TIMELINE
April 15: A 60 year old woman Reshma was killed and her son critically injured in an attack at Donadoo, Kellar area. Two unidentified gunmen barged into the house of 35 year-old Aslam Awan at Donadoo and fired indiscriminately on the members of the family, causing death of Awans mother. 
May 31: Unidentified gunmen shot dead a village head hailing from Muqaam-Donadu, Keller. The 48-year-old Saifuddin Kallar was shot dead at Zehan Behak. 
June 3: Unidentified gunmen barged into house of one Sharief Ahmad Awan and shot dead his teen-aged daughter, Nigeena at Donadu Kellar. 
July 17: Gunmen barged into the house of Ghulam Ahmad Dar at Mujpathri Kellar and shot dead his 17-year old daughter, Parveena Akhter.
July 23: Unknown gunmen intruded into the house of Mohammad Aslam Awan at Pahlipora Donadu and fired indiscriminately upon family members, killing him and his 3-year-old son, Arif. The gunmen had made an abortive bid to kill Aslam earlier on April 15. Aslam sustained bullet injuries while his mother died on the spot.

Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - Keller: 8 months on, 4 women among 7 killed


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## Awesome

unknown assailants... could be anybody, probably sponsored by the Indian government and that's probably what the Kashmiris are thinking which is why the father is asking:



> "We want to know who is behind this gruesome killing," said Ghulam Ahmad Khan.



and not buying into the story that militants decided to randomly kill a 21 year old girl.


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## ssheppard

Asim Aquil said:


> unknown assailants... could be anybody, probably sponsored by the Indian government and that's probably what the Kashmiris are thinking which is why the father is asking:
> 
> 
> 
> and not buying into the story that militants decided to randomly kill a 21 year old girl.



Do you have the same logic ...when terrorists are killing your people in Pakistan......I would love to see that working in Pakistan.


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## sob

Asim Aquil said:


> unknown assailants... could be anybody, probably sponsored by the Indian government and that's probably what the Kashmiris are thinking which is why the father is asking:
> 
> 
> 
> and not buying into the story that militants decided to randomly kill a 21 year old girl.



Sir,

Even the Huriyat and PDP have not raised this question.


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## vsdoc

ssheppard said:


> Do you have the same logic ...when terrorists are killing your people in Pakistan......I would love to see that working in Pakistan.



No they do not. How can they when the whole world knows it is Pakistanis killing Pakistanis? 

This dastardly killing and the recent about turns by separatists in the UK and in Kashmir only go to show that this is the end game. 

Pakistan knows that without the people on its side, it does not have a chance, and like they claim to be doing to their TTP, Indian Forces will hunt and kill every *** that crawls across the border to spread its pestilence on our soil.

And those that they miss, our brave women will take care of.  (we need an axe motif too, mods)

Cheers, Doc


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## Nihat

what about Ruksana then

Militants forced their way into her house , she killed one and wounded many others and they again attacked her house.

When militants sneak in from across the LoC , they need shelter , food , water and Sex.

In the inital days of insurgency the shelter and food was provided by local Kashmiris as they thought of them as brothers. Now , that does not quite happen so frequently , so militants are forcefully seeking shelter and use civilians as shields to delay the inevitable.

Earlier some of these women even married the militants either out of family preasure or economic reason or just plain sympathy.

Militants are getting desperate now, they will shoot anyone who denies them.

Actually , who can blame them - they want to enjoy a quicke in their last remaining days but that particular brave Kashmiri girl just did not given in. May her sould rest in peace.


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## vkurian

Asim Aquil said:


> unknown assailants... could be anybody, probably sponsored by the Indian government and that's probably what the Kashmiris are thinking which is why the father is asking:
> 
> 
> 
> and not buying into the story that militants decided to randomly kill a 21 year old girl.



So when it is TTP the yardstick is different....right?

Tales you win ...Heads I loose

You should be proud of this good terrorists and the ones killing you mothers and sisters are bad ones ? Correct me if I am wrong.


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## Valiant_Soul

FreekiN said:


> Anyways if India does not want to give Kashmir up for Pakistan's demands then how about do it for democracy? Put up a fair vote as the 'worlds largest democracy' should do. But they don't. Why dont they?
> 
> Fear.



Fear? The state that witnessed one of the most massive (*62%*) turnout in assembly elections would fear for that? 

No nation can put at stake its territorial integrity, even if people their want to part away (although that is not the case with Kashmir). The land belongs to the whole nation, just like any other part. So giving up Kashmir at Pakistan's whim is not an option.

Besides, would it not be unfair to call for a referendum only in the Indian owned Kashmir and not in the Pakistan's side of Kashmir? India is ready to talk on the Kashmir issue with Pakistan, but only if Pakistan stops the use terrorist activity as a state policy against India and dismantle all the terrorist bases, that is the official Indian stand. And then you can talk about referendum, and what not.


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## vkurian

Mr X said:


> oh please don't start indo pakistan war again
> 
> Just one tip......... free and fair elections in Kashmir.......... see how many percent wants to merge with India and see how many percents want to merge with Pakistan
> 
> give that certain percentage to India with the same amount of land and the borders connecting Pakistan give that percentage to Pakistan and ask Kashmir's to chose either country before that deadline....... so migrate peoples and finish this larayi jhagra
> 
> it could be a stupid advise but after so many solutions nothing has been resolved this stupid advise might help them out




No Sir it is not that simple ....

I agree if all of India votes to keep Kashmir or not. India has many states tomorrow one state or district can stand up and say we want to join Afghnistan....can it be allowed.

So a national referandum should be the right way.

Its like asking people of Balochistan do they want to be a separate country or join India.We respect the views of people of Pakistan in this.

Hope you understand.


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## SSG VIPER

vkiurian sir i hope u understand that nmone of otrher INDIAN STATES are internationally declared as [B ]DISPUTED OR OCUPIED LAND[/B] plus do u have a single thing in common with the kashmiris? on which u call it yours u dont have any hinic or religious ties or even cultural ties+ they want freedom since 1947 PLEASE WAKE UP DUDE


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## SSG VIPER

Panditji said:


> Mr X, excellent idea. But J&K (except the unfortunate 'azad' part) does have regular free and fair elections. Only the 'Pakistani at heart and pocket' Hurriyat stays away, because it knows, it would be demolished in the elections, as it has no mass base. So let us just give you the Hurriyat guys, who anyway are on your payroll. Just resettle them in 'azad' J&K, or better still, Pindi/Islamabad, and the issue is over!
> 
> Yes, also please stop pushing in militants to kill innocents. That would be all.



Please tyell me if PAKISTANI KASHMIRIS are on our payroll why do u have MORE THEN HALF A MILLION ARMY TROOPS AND POLICE FOR A FEW HURIYAT PEOPLE??????
Why have several hundred thouisand people died or are missing why ANTI INDIA PROTESTS AND PRO PAKISTAN RALLIES CARRYINGPAKISTANI FLAGS????
Pushing in militants dont RANT WITHOUT ANY PROOF LIKE UR CHADIPADI OR MANU 
HOPE U UNDERSTAND
FREE KASHMIR


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## FireFighter

Red Dwarf said:


> Yeah he and his followers can go to Pakistan. But Kashmir will remain here.


They already live in a part of Pakistan occupied by Indian Army, why should they move? 

The only people that should really move "back" are the indian soldiers because they're outsiders and not native Kashmiris hijacking the land of the Kashmiri natives 



Red Dwarf said:


> Then it was never part of Pakistan too. If Kashmir was a part of Pakistan, then why you have to *invade* it in 1947.


Pakistan did not "invade" Kashmir, but Afghan and Pashtun tribes invaded Kashmir because the Durrani Afghan empire ruled over kashmir for centuries and they came back help Kashmiris get rid of the tyrant Maharaja. 

Pick up a book and start reading. you have a lot to read my friend. 



pagans said:


> Even Kerala was never a part of India.
> 
> Compared with it Kashmir was always a part of Ashoka's Kaniska's,Ranjit Singh,Dogra, Shahi , Mughal ,British, Modern India.......all subcontinental India based empires.
> 
> Kashmir was never ever not a part of India.



You're forgetting that muslims ruled over India before the British came for 5 to 6 centuries. Durrani Afghan Empire ruled kashmir for a couple of centuries and they were not Indians, nor the Moguls were Indian they spoke farsi and hindi and were turkic descendants, I suspect they don't teach you kashmir's history in indian schools. 

Pick up a book and start reading. 



Jumeirah said:


> The Central Government is too lenient with the Kashmiris. They are privileged from the rest of the states with lots of goodies.
> 
> The government should change its plans and have a mass settlement into Kashmir by millions of Indians. Millions of people from all kinds of ethnic groups should begin the settlement in Kashmir. If the kashmiris cannot appreciate then the best solution is to change its demographics.


Kashmir has some of the highest unemployment in the subcontinent and low per capita income, what are you talking about? 

You really sound like an Israeli justifying Israeling barbaric and oppressive actions and suggesting the return of jews over the world on Palestinian lands. 

If the government decides to have a mass settlement into Kashmir by millions of hindus with the intent of politically silencing the Kashmiris, i believe it would be a declaration of war, and Pakistan would send in millions of freedom fighters across the border to free our Pakistani brethren

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## devd

I guess this dispute will remain same, there is no need to debate on this. Kashmir will be in India always and world knows this thats why they don't want to interfere in this matter. No of reasons for this.


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## FireFighter

devd said:


> I guess this dispute will remain same, there is no need to debate on this. Kashmir will be in India always and world knows this thats why they don't want to interfere in this matter. No of reasons for this.



History is a testimony to the fact that no dispute in the world remains the same over time. Mother Nature doesn't really like humans to draw permanent lines over her. God has His way of paying back to the oppressed and the oppressors in the form of reward and punishment. Natural justice takes place, timing is not relevant. 

Kashmiri's have been oppressed for a century now (including the sikh maharaja's oppressive rule), there will be a time when will be free of worries and be in a position to rule Pakistan and maybe India. You never know.

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## Kavin

devd said:


> I guess this dispute will remain same, there is no need to debate on this. Kashmir will be in India always and world knows this thats why they don't want to interfere in this matter. No of reasons for this.



The most boring & flaming topic in this forum is Kashmir. Anyway, It'll be discussed for centuries, I'm sure.


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## RobbieS

FireFighter said:


> History is a testimony to the fact that no dispute in the world remains the same over time. Mother Nature doesn't really like humans to draw permanent lines over her. God has His way of paying back to the oppressed and the oppressors in the form of reward and punishment. Natural justice takes place, timing is not relevant.
> 
> Kashmiri's have been oppressed for a century now (including the sikh maharaja's oppressive rule), there will be a time when will be free of worries and be in a position to rule Pakistan and maybe India. You never know.



Factual error there. The Dogra kings wern't Sikhs, they were Kahmiri Hindu Rajputs.


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## FireFighter

RobbieS said:


> Factual error there. The Dogra kings wern't Sikhs, they were Kahmiri Hindu Rajputs.



Yeah I meant to say was Singh* 

Thanks for the correction


And it's Kashmiri* but looks like theres something wrong with your keyboard


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## Kavin

FireFighter said:


> Kashmiri's have been oppressed for a century now (including the sikh maharaja's oppressive rule), there will be a time when will be free of worries *and be in a position to rule Pakistan and maybe India*. You never know.



Already Kashmiris ARE in the position to rule India. Any Indian can become prime minister and rule India.


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## vsdoc

There is a simple solution to Gilani and those like him.

Escort them to the border and throw them across (circus-type human catapaults come to mind).

If you are Pakistani, then you belong in Pakistan.

Stay out of India.

Period.

Cheers, Doc

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## FireFighter

vsdoc said:


> There is a simple solution to Gilani and those like him.
> 
> Escort them to the border and throw them across (circus-type human catapaults come to mind).
> 
> If you are Pakistani, then you belong in Pakistan.
> 
> Stay out of India.
> 
> Period.
> 
> Cheers, Doc


Hey you feel no remorse in threatening a political leader of the Kashmiri people? Thats very shameful and stupid to say the least. you sound like a RSS agent 



Sorry to burst your ignorant bubble, Gillani lives in what he considers his home - Pakistan - Kashmiri's have been saying this for 60 years. It's about time the pissing poor ignorant masses in India wake up and smell the Chai, and see their govn't's brutalities of Kashmiris

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## FireFighter

Kavin said:


> Already Kashmiris ARE in the position to rule India. Any Indian can become prime minister and rule India.



If that's the case, i totally forgot that Kashmiris have already ruled over Pakistan. Last time I checked Nawaz Sharif hails from a Kashmiri family

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## vsdoc

You guys are living in denial my friends.

62 years and counting.

Our great-great-grandchildren could be having the same entertainment on Pakistan Defense Forum 62 years hence.

And *nothing* would have changed.

India is comfortable with what it has. Too bad you are not.

Forget about Kashmir. Woh tumhare taqdeer mein nahin hai.

Concentrate instead on Balochistan, Pashnunistan, Waziristan, and Pakistan.

A bird in hand is worth two in the bush .... even if its a headless bird.

Cheers, Doc

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## ssheppard

The delima with Pakistan is that they have declared P0K as Azad Kashmir....so they can't own it...so even if under some remote circumstances the world community presses India to free Kashmir....it will become a new country....and Pakistan would lose whatever Part of Kashmir it currently Holds ..... 

Think of Pakistani situation now..." Age Kuaan ....Peeche Khai" ..

Either Kashmir Stays with India in its current form...or Kashmir is a new country.....what does Pakistan Get....Zilch...... Frustrating right.


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## vsdoc

I agree. Pakistan, unlike India, has taken the moral high ground .... kashmir for kashmiris.

India is very clear .... Kashmir is one of our many states.

Always was, always has been, is, and always will be.

There is no dispute as far as we are concerned .... only pakistani origin terrorism and insurgency and unrest and violence.

Which we know how to tackle. Till Pakistan gives up .... or is made to give up .... or has to give up.

Cheers, Doc

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## ambidex

SSG VIPER said:


> Kashmir is and was Pakistan so can u please shut up and do some dance in a temple or something



Can you elaborate your comment about using Temple word in this notion.

Thanks in advance.

On Topic.

Indian here a making unnecessary noise on Gilani's comments.

This what we want him to say. 
By associating himself with Pakistan he has done most of the damage to Pakistan's policy of declaring a ***'s piece of land as Azad Kashmir. Furthermore this comments are explaining his frustration and divided within Huriyat.

According to many experts the pressure is now mounting more on separatists groups those who were trying to carry Kashmir youth along since many years and nothing has been done till date. 

Recent development in valley is that being a pioneer province before militancy now valley is most backward in terms of economical development as compare to jammu and surrounding districts.

People like Gilani are still holding the flag of Pakistan just to make India look awkward every now and then. But what practically he be able to achieve is like ''These grapes are sore''.

Few Pakistani member developing a view that Bangladesh will be avenged by freedom of Kashmir is very poor thinking. If one could have a ideal and analytical approach then he will be able to understand that with contemporary Pakistani capabilities and few pockets of support from Kashmir separatist there are very very narrow chances that Kashmir will either join Pakistan or will gain freedom. 

It took India 1 or less year to create Bangladesh and how much time you guys are wasting just renting like i quoted above to help so called Kashmir freedom is testimony to your inability and dysfunctional approach. 

Furthermore there is nothing to cherish about such rallies against India, cause these are now more functional for local politics then anything to do with like of Pakistan.


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## Awesome

ssheppard said:


> The delima with Pakistan is that they have declared P0K as Azad Kashmir....so they can't own it...so even if under some remote circumstances the world community presses India to free Kashmir....it will become a new country....and Pakistan would lose whatever Part of Kashmir it currently Holds .....
> 
> Think of Pakistani situation now..." Age Kuaan ....Peeche Khai" ..
> 
> Either Kashmir Stays with India in its current form...or Kashmir is a new country.....what does Pakistan Get....Zilch...... Frustrating right.


Actually no. We're perfectly happy with Kashmir going free and Pakistan losing Azad Kashmir to form this new country.


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## ssheppard

Asim Aquil said:


> Actually no. We're perfectly happy with Kashmir going free and Pakistan losing Azad Kashmir to form this new country.




There goes the Kashmir Banega Pakistan ...slogan....out of the window...



So please care to reply to this:

A 2008 report by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees determined that Pakistan administered Kashmir, was 'Not Free'. It also criticized the Pakistani Government saying 'The appropriation of land in the Northern Areas by non-Kashmiri migrants from elsewhere in Pakistan, with the tacit encouragement of the federal government and army, has led to dwindling economic opportunities for the local population and an increase in sectarian tension between the majority Shia Muslims and a growing number of Sunnis.

UNHCR | Refworld | Freedom in the World 2008 - Kashmir [Pakistan]

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## ssheppard

*Shopian rape: Doc tampered with swab?*

SRINAGAR: The CBI has picked yet another hole in the post mortem of the two Shopian women who were ound dead near the south Kashmir town on May 30, saying that one of the doctors involved in inspecting crucial evidence had, at one point, falsely claimed to have used her own vaginal swabs to prove that the two were raped before their death. 

In fact, the contents of the report are believed to be so contentious that the court had proscribed, until December 14, all media reports on the sordid episode. 

In its report, CBI, which probed the case that triggered one of the longest-running protests in two decades, said Dr Nighat Shaheen had claimed to have used a glove in her dustbin to prepare the swab to prove rape on Asiya Jan (17) and sister-in-law Neelofar Jan (22). Shaheens claim turned out to be false when the swab was matched with her husbands blood sample, said CBI DIG Satish Kumar Golcha.

Shopian ?rape?: Doc tampered with swab? - India - The Times of India


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## vsdoc

Asim Aquil said:


> Actually no. We're perfectly happy with Kashmir going free and *Pakistan losing Azad Kashmir* to form this new country.



Funny .... doesn't azad mean free/independent?

So where is the question of pakistan losing something (happily or not) it does not have?

Or are you saying "azad" sirf naam ke waaste hai?

Like a Hero Honda CD 100 carrying a Ducati sticker ....

Cheers, Doc

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## FireFighter

vsdoc said:


> You guys are living in denial my friends.
> 
> 62 years and counting.
> 
> Our great-great-grandchildren could be having the same entertainment on Pakistan Defense Forum 62 years hence.
> 
> And *nothing* would have changed.
> 
> India is comfortable with what it has. Too bad you are not.
> 
> Forget about Kashmir. Woh tumhare taqdeer mein nahin hai.
> 
> Concentrate instead on Balochistan, Pashnunistan, Waziristan, and Pakistan.
> 
> A bird in hand is worth two in the bush .... even if its a headless bird.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



The past one thousand or so years haven't been so bright however the future Only God knows what your taqdeer has been written before you. 


You're factually wrong on many accounts. We have been able to successfully free approx 35&#37; of the land in the past 60 years despite of the difficulties and hardships we faced against a mamooth adversary. We realize that it's a very long and stretched war that may take another 50 years or even longer. But rest assured victory is ours both in this world and the next...

Sacrifices of our martyrs are honored by God in the heavens and on earth by the masses, 
whereas sacrifices of the oppressors go in vain as they burn to the ashes


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## vsdoc

FireFighter said:


> You're factually wrong on many accounts. We have been able to *successfully free approx 35%* of the land in the past 60 years despite of the difficulties and hardships we faced against a mamooth adversary. We realize that it's a very long and stretched war that may take another 50 years or even longer. But rest assured victory is ours both in this world and the next...



Now its you who is factually incorrect. You did not *free* .... your *usurped*. Right at the very begining. By surprise. Illegally.

How much have you been able to add to that score since then?

And what are your chances of catching us off-guard again?

Versus what are your chances of having the time or money or resources, otherwise tied up on your Western front?

Flashbacks of 1971? 



> As Sacrifices of our martyrs are honored in the heavens and on earth by the masses, whereas sacrifices of the oppressors go in vain as they burn to the ashes



In the end, its always dust to dust, ashes to ashes, for all of us ..... not only our martyrs.

Whether you bury, or cremate, or feed to the vultures. The cycle goes on ..... its part of the Carbon Credit/Debit cycle thats so fashionable in Copenhagen these days .....

Cheers, Doc

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## paritosh

Jana said:


> All of them want their land back which is occupied by India.
> 
> Simple as that.



they want the land "held by us" to be handed over ceremoniously to Pakistan...??
not happening anytime soon...even the most humanitarian of my creed would disagree to kashmir going to Pakistan...simple as that...whether _they _like it or not.

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## Icarus

It seems through this discussion that India has no intention to end the bloodbath in Kashmir.
Respected Indian members do not tell me that you are unaware of the gross violations of basic human rights by your forces in Kashmir, do not tell me you still feel no pity for them(the Kashmiris), if you do then work to stop these violations and maybe Kashmiris will drop their demand of secession.
Simple............


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## Hulk

Guys if you say India has occupied Kashmir, I will agree with you and there are reasons behind it. But I completly disagree if people say it is oppressed state. I have asked memebers to provide data regarding oppression ( rape, killing etc ) for 2009 none has responded with more then 1 case. If oppression is there atleast 100 rapes should have happened. About half million military good number of those are on border, few are in cities because of security situation. I heard now Islamabad also has bunkers in city, does that mean it is also oppressed. 
Last I am all for people wish but condition does not support that, if azad Pakistan has settlers means it is not fair anymore.

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## Valiant_Soul

Kakgeta said:


> It seems through this discussion that India has no intention to end the bloodbath in Kashmir.
> Respected Indian members do not tell me that you are unaware of the g*ross violations of basic human rights by your forces in Kashmir*, do not tell me you still feel no pity for them(the Kashmiris), if you do then work to stop these violations and maybe Kashmiris will drop their demand of secession.
> Simple............



Can you give source, which is genuine and unbiased and has proofs?

The Pakistanis seem to have too much sympathy for the people of Kashmir. If India is an oppressor and Pakistan is so concerned about Kashmiri people, then why should Pakistan not start a full fledged war with India? People of Pakistan should press the Pakistan government to declare war on India, but this coward form of war tactics is what no one likes, i.e., provoking people of J&K against India, supporting insurgency and sending terrorists into India to kill civilians. That won't do good and only create setiments against Pakistan.


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## Icarus

Valiant_Soul said:


> Can you give source, which is genuine and unbiased and has proofs?
> 
> The Pakistanis seem to have too much sympathy for the people of Kashmir. If India is an oppressor and Pakistan is so concerned about Kashmiri people, then why should Pakistan not start a full fledged war with India? People of Pakistan should press the Pakistan government to declare war on India, but this coward form of war tactics is what no one likes, i.e., provoking people of J&K against India, supporting insurgency and sending terrorists into India to kill civilians. That won't do good and only create setiments against Pakistan.



Buddy, if you wanna talk about who's fighting dirty you should investigate what goes on in India's embassies in Afghanistan, you will get your answer, as for full fledged war, well let me jog your memory by reminding you that we already have fought two wars over kashmir (1948,1965).


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## Valiant_Soul

Kavin said:


> Already Kashmiris ARE in the position to rule India. Any Indian can become prime minister and rule India.



Please call it servicing the nation, not ruling the nation.


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## ssheppard

Kakgeta said:


> Buddy, if you wanna talk about who's fighting dirty you should investigate what goes on in India's embassies in Afghanistan, you will get your answer, as for full fledged war, well let me jog your memory by reminding you that we already have fought two wars over kashmir (1948,1965).



Thats called ...Twisting ....and twisting...and more twisting.....The question here is about Pakistani Support to terrorism in India ...and the answer ....You have got Consulates In Afghanistan.....

By the way the Consulates in Afghanistan are a recent Phenomenon...but Pakistani support to terrorism in India is about 6 Decades old.

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## Valiant_Soul

Kakgeta said:


> Buddy, if you wanna talk about who's fighting dirty you should investigate what goes on in India's embassies in Afghanistan, you will get your answer, as for full fledged war, well let me jog your memory by reminding you that we already have fought two wars over kashmir (1948,1965).



Why not another one? Is Pakistan afraid? 1965 is a long time to see India oppressing Kashmiris, isn't it?


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## EjazR

First of all everyone knows Geelani represents a minority within a minority. IF Mirwaiz Farooq had said the same it would have presented a wider group of people, but when u talk Geelani, think Qazi Hussain Ahmed in Pakistan and Pakistanis should realize then straightaway how much popular support he would have.


Secondly, whats with this obsession of we ruled over India and giving it a color as if Pakistan rules over India? The Mughals were originally from central asia near present day Uzbekistan, over the years they had settled in and around the Gangetic plains. Many of the Mughals had Rajptu mothers, so even by today's boundaries, they were very much pat of India. No wonder the major majority of Mughal heritage is in India. 

Infact it was the troublesome Pashtoon tribes in the west along with the sikhs and muslims of punjab that gave the Mughals a hard time and they in turn tried to suppress them with Rajput support. Later the migrated pathans fighters who had settled in present day Maharashtra were part of the army of Shivaji who again fought with Aurangzeb. So if anything the Mughals were fighting the tribes and sikhs alliance in the west from their base in Delhi, UP and Rajasthan.


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## ssheppard

*Chidambaram terms 'bizarre' rejection of CBI report on Shopian*

Home Minister P Chidambaram today termed as "bizarre" the rejection of the CBI report on the death of two women in Shopian in Jammu and Kashmir and said any pre-disposition in favour of a particular conclusion was not the way to go about a professional probe.

"This is bizarre. You (those objecting CBI's findings) asked for a CBI inquiry and then if the inquiry does not support your original hypothesis, you condemn the report," he said when asked to comment on the rejection of the agency's report on the death of Neelofar (22) and Asiya (17), whose bodies were found in a stream in May.

According to the CBI report, the women died due to drowning and the two were not raped and murdered as alleged by the family members of the victims.

fullstory


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## Icarus

Here is your link, pretty basic but something everyone can relate to:
Kashmir conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

---------- Post added at 06:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:05 PM ----------




ssheppard said:


> Thats called ...Twisting ....and twisting...and more twisting.....The question here is about Pakistani Support to terrorism in India ...and the answer ....You have got Consulates In Afghanistan.....
> 
> By the way the Consulates in Afghanistan are a recent Phenomenon...but Pakistani support to terrorism in India is about 6 Decades old.



Those are allegations not facts.


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## Icarus

Valiant_Soul said:


> Why not another one? Is Pakistan afraid? 1965 is a long time to see India oppressing Kashmiris, isn't it?



Afraid, please you amuse me too much................ If you remember we came to the brink of full scale war in 2002, and it was India who first moved their additional forces to the border, after senseless violence and loss of life, THE INDIANS FELL BACK...........


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## Valiant_Soul

Kakgeta said:


> Here is your link, pretty basic but something everyone can relate to:
> Kashmir conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Hmm, the first line reads:



> The neutrality of this article is disputed. Please see the discussion on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved. (February 2009)





> Those are allegations not facts.



Yes, all facts lies with Pakistan, India can fool its people with allegations alone.


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## Valiant_Soul

Kakgeta said:


> Afraid, please you amuse me too much................ If you remember we came to the brink of full scale war in 2002, and it was India who first moved their additional forces to the border, after senseless violence and loss of life, *THE INDIANS FELL BACK...........*



Oh then the Pakistanis should have moved ahead and gain control over Kashmir?  

Please you amuse me no less. The truth is Pakistan has been beaten in all the three wars, hence the only thing that makes sense to Pakistan is to become a coward and send terrorists to India for God knows what Azad Kashmir. Not sure whether Pakistan loves Kashmiris or Kashmir.

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## Icarus

Valiant_Soul said:


> Hmm, the first line reads:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, all facts lies with Pakistan, India can fool its people with allegations alone.



What proof did India have of Pakistan's involvement in..................................let's say.......................... Mumbai Attacks ?
A toothpaste, packets of washing powder and a guy speaking in Urdu on the phone (for all we know the phone call could be a fake or from the Urdu speaking community in India) ?
And the evidence we have comprises of 4 tonnes of medicines(indian made) from bajaur, about 500 parcels of plastic explosives(indian) from Swat and crates upon crates of 7.62 mm rounds and mortars, stamped "Made in India" "2007" from Waziristan.......

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## Icarus

Valiant_Soul said:


> Oh then the Pakistanis should have moved ahead and gain control over Kashmir?
> 
> Please you amuse me no less. The truth is Pakistan has been beaten in all the tree wars, hence the only thing that makes sense to Pakistan is to become a coward and send terrorists to India for God knows what Azad Kashmir. Not sure whether Pakistan loves Kashmir or Kashmiris.



At that time Atal Bihari Vajpayee declared that the Kashmir issue could be discussed and solved according to the UN Resolution.
We took his word............nothing yet though.........


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## EjazR

Well here is another take on it, a New Delhi based rights group has come out with its own fact finding report that disregards the drowning theory apparently.

*Shopian double murder being hushed up, alleges women&#8217;s group
*
New Delhi, Dec 10 (IANS) &#8220;They make it a desolation and call it a peace&#8221; - with this line by a Kashmiri-American poet reflecting his thoughts on his state, a Delhi-based women&#8217;s group sums up its report on the Shopian rape and murder of two women that triggered a massive furore in the Kashmir Valley this year.
The Independent Women&#8217;s Initiative for Justice (IWIJ) in its report released Thursday alleges that the Jammu and Kashmir government is involved in a major hush-up of the rape-murder of the two women in May this year.

The IWIJ, which conducted its independent findings into the incident, wonders if the &#8220;facts of what happened to the two women before their bodies appeared in a nallah (stream) will ever be known&#8221;.

The IWIJ report comes against the backdrop of the Central Bureau of Investigation&#8217;s (CBI) leaked findings, which reportedly ruled out foul play in the deaths and said that the women had drowned. The CBI is to submit its report to the Jammu and Kashmir High Court Monday.

According to the CBI&#8217;s leaked report, which appeared in the Srinagar media, the two women had drowned May 29 in a stream in Shopian where their bodies were found a day later. This finding corroborates the first statement of Chief Minister Omar Abdullah on the incident. He later said he had been misled by the Shopian district administration and police.

However, the IWIJ has contested the CBI&#8217;s findings and maintains that during its team&#8217;s visit to Shopian in August it found that the water in the stream was only ankle-deep - not enough for anybody to drown in it.

&#8220;As for accidental drowning of the two women in the nallah, where no one in recent or living memory has ever drowned, we would need to be more than merely credulous to believe that,&#8221; the IWIJ report says, alleging that the state government and police are involved in hushing up the case.

The two women were found dead May 30, triggering a major uprising in the Kashmir Valley this summer. Shopian town, 50 km from Srinagar, observed a 47-day shutdown before the state government announced a one-man inquiry commission.

The inquiry commission alleged that four police officers were involved in rubbing off some of the key evidence following which they were suspended and arrested. The case was then handed over to the CBI in September.

Though the CBI is yet to file its report, media reports indicate that the central probe team has concluded that the women died of drowning.

&#8220;How is that possible?&#8221; asked Seema Mishra, a Delhi-based lawyer and one of the IWIJ members who visited the valley in August on a fact-finding mission.

&#8220;We don&#8217;t conclude anything, but there is a major cover-up. The government perhaps doesn&#8217;t want an ugly scene that may sabotage the ongoing peace process. Why don&#8217;t they understand that you are pushing Kashmiris more into fanaticism, to militancy by denying justice?&#8221; Usha Ramanathan of the IWIJ said, speaking to reporters.

&#8220;Two woman sacrificed at the altar of national security. No matter that the guilty are unlikely ever to be found. It is not just that two women were buried, exhumed and buried again. Justice itself is well and truly buried all across the state - in Shopian for certain,&#8221; she said.
-------------------------------------------

The entire report can be found here
*Independent Women&#8217;s Initiative for Justice - Shopian report 2009*


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## Hulk

Kakgeta said:


> What proof did India have of Pakistan's involvement in..................................let's say.......................... Mumbai Attacks ?
> A toothpaste, packets of washing powder and a guy speaking in Urdu on the phone (for all we know the phone call could be a fake or from the Urdu speaking community in India) ?
> And the evidence we have comprises of 4 tonnes of medicines(indian made) from bajaur, about 500 parcels of plastic explosives(indian) from Swat and crates upon crates of 7.62 mm rounds and mortars, stamped "Made in India" "2007" from Waziristan.......


Are you litteraly so innocent that you do not know about the proof. 
Also give some proof about Indian oppression, I am still waiting 3 months gone.

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## EjazR

I went around and found the One man Justice Jan Commision report that was accepted by all parties.

Here are some key findings that were contrary to newspaper reports

1. Although we have good number of matured and reasonable journalists representing various leading news papers, but at times unconfirmed and incorrect information is fed to print and electronic media to flare up the sentiments of the public.

2. The print and electronic media gave wide publicity to the last mobile call of Neelofar to her husband, alleging that she was being chased by CRPF persons around 7.00 PM on 29th May, 2009 near Rambi Ara River.

3. Shakeel Ahmad (husband of Neelofar), Syed Zeerak Shah (brother of Neelofar) and Posha (cousin sister of Neelofar) in one voice have stated in their statement before the Commission, on oath that Neelofar did not have any mobile phone, and never called, alleging chase by CRPF persons. The investigating team of the Commission, scrutinized 32686 calls and found that Neelofar did not have a mobile phone on 29-05-2009.

*4. It was also reported in the press that Neelofar was pregnant, but on post mortem examination of Dr. Bilal he found that Neelofar was not pregnant.*

5. The area of orchard in the press was shown in hundreds of kanals, with thousands of fruit trees, but on inspection of the orchard, the orchard initially a migrant property was found measuring 1 kanal and 16 marlas under khasra No. 158, Khewat No. 630 is in a dilapidated, neglected condition, full of weeds, wild grass with nearly 35 fruit trees in a bad shape. As the incorrect reporting directed against the administration, causes law and order problems, it would be expedient if firm guidelines are enacted and circulated to ensure that, before publication of any news, the authenticity of the news be verified.

*6. It was reported in the press that the garments of the dead bodies were torn. During enquiry it was found that the Ferak and Shalwar of both the dead bodies were not torn as reported in the press.
*
7. It was reported in the press that Asiya had a &#8220;Sindoor mark&#8221; on her forehead. During enquiry it was found that there were a grave injury of 3 inches long and 2 inches wide 1 cm deep on the forehead of Asiya, which was bleeding even at the time of post mortem. The flow of blood on the forehead was shamefully distorted and projected as mark of &#8220;Sindoor&#8221;.

8. It was projected in the press that Constable Mohammad Yaseen made number of calls while conducting the search of death bodies on 29th/ 30th of May 2009. On call analysis of the Mobile No. 9419927653 of Constable Mohammad Yaseen, it was found that he had made only four calls during the day and no calls were made by the constable from 10.00 P.M on 29th of May
to 6.00 A.M on 30th of May, 2009.

*9. It was reported that there were multiple injuries on the dead body of Neelofer, both the team of doctors have given consistent statement that there were no visible external injuries on the dead body of Neelofar.
*
10. It was widely publicized in the press that one Jamal-uddin Gujjar has disappeared. During enquiry Jamal-ud-din Gujjar with real name as Jamal-ud-din Wani (Gujjar) S/o Yaseen Wani R/o Tatapani, Kalakote is a migrant Gujjar and was actually found living in a tent, at Dehgam along with his family and is employed as Chowkidar on Islamia Darsgah, Dehgam.

11. Although wide publicity was given that the girls have been gang raped, but during the enquiry no evidence of gang rape was found by the team of medical experts.

As the incorrect reporting directed against the administration, cause law and order problems, it would be expedient if firm guidelines are made to ensure that, before publication of any news, the authenticity of the news be verified and after proper satisfaction of the genuineness of the news, it must be published in the newspapers.

---------------
The entire report can be found on
*JUSTICE MUZAFAR JAN COMMISSION REPORT*

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## SSG VIPER

u forgot the 5 trucks caught in waziristan and 5 or 6 trucks with ammo from pak afghan border torkham an explosives RDX caught by police in punjab which were packed by some explosive factory in pune or somewhere indian terrorist SCUMS in our jails like sarbajet singh who was booked in bombing case which killed many? ARSE HOLES like kashmir singh etc WHILE OUR PEOPLE OR PRISONERS OF WARS LIKE SEPOY MAQBOOL HUSSAIN AND I HOPE U SAW NEWS RELATED TO 18 PAKISTANI SOLDIERS THAT WERE IN AN DRAMATIC INCIDENT FOUND OUT WERE IN INDIAN JAILS NOT TO FORGET OTHER POWS FROM 1965 IN INDIAN JAILS,,,,,,,in the end ill say INDIA should mend its ways and its proxys plus its saffron terrorist war mongoring jealosy that her LEADERS CARRY.....
FREE OUR KASHMIR 
PAKISTAN ZINDABAD

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## pagans

syedtalha said:


> i know where srinagar is for god's sake i live here. all u indians need is get ur ***** kicked every time indian army tries to win over our hearts.. my advice... check the cost-benifit ration of ur occupation here>> u'll soon realize it and pack ur bags & leave before u r kicked out.



You can leave to Pakistan.


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## Icarus

indianrabbit said:


> Are you litteraly so innocent that you do not know about the proof.
> Also give some proof about Indian oppression, I am still waiting 3 months gone.



This must be your lucky day since your wait is now over:
India | Amnesty International Report 2009


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## Icarus

SSG VIPER said:


> u forgot the 5 trucks caught in waziristan and 5 or 6 trucks with ammo from pak afghan border torkham an explosives RDX caught by police in punjab which were packed by some explosive factory in pune or somewhere indian scums or terrorist bastards in our jails like sarbajet singh who was booked in bombing case which killed many? ARSE HOLES like kashmir singh etc WHILE OPUR PEOPLE OR PRISONERS OF WARS LIKE SEPOY MAQBOOL HUSSAIN AND I HOPE U SAW NEWS RELATED TO 18 PAKISTANI SOLDIERS THAT WERE IN AN DRAMATIC INCIDENT FOUND OUT WERE IN INDIAN JAILS NOT TO FORGET OTHER POWS FROM 1965 IN INDIAN JAILS,,,,,,,in the end ill say INDIA should mend its ways and its proxys plus its saffron terrorist war mongoring jealosy that her LEADERS CARRY.....
> FREE OUR KASHMIR
> PAKISTAN ZINDABAD



Sorry my bad !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But do watch the language, you could get banned.............

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## Valiant_Soul

Kakgeta said:


> At that time Atal Bihari Vajpayee declared that the Kashmir issue could be discussed and solved according to the UN Resolution.
> We took his word............nothing yet though.........



Now that is news. Pakistan frightened India to such extent with its handful of soldiers. Well, there is no point talking, meet in the battlefield.


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## EjazR

Kakgeta said:


> This must be your lucky day since your wait is now over:
> India | Amnesty International Report 2009



Did you read the section on J&K? it talks about the Amarnath shrine controversy which happened in 2008. This report was released in Jan of this year. You will have to wait till 2010 for the 2009 Amnesty report and UNHCR report

Btw, do check out the Pakistan report as well.

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## Icarus

Valiant_Soul said:


> Now that is news. Pakistan frightened India to such extent with its handful of soldiers. Well, there is no point talking, meet in the battlefield.



Battlefield, if you sit in England, you will never encounter anyone in the Battlefield, and for your information I was there in Chakothi, during the stand-off, we blew two of your ammo dumps into kingdom cum and over that year a damage assessment reported that India had lost soldiers somewhere in the 300s IN CHAKOTHI SECTOR ALONE.
That my friend is the power of our handful of soldiers...........

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## Icarus

EjazR said:


> Did you read the section on J&K? it talks about the Amarnath shrine controversy which happened in 2008. This report was released in Jan of this year. You will have to wait till 2010 for the 2009 Amnesty report and UNHCR report
> 
> Btw, do check out the Pakistan report as well.



Already checked the Pakistan report out, did you ?


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## Valiant_Soul

Kakgeta said:


> Battlefield, if you sit in England, you will never encounter anyone in the Battlefield, and for your information I was there in Chakothi, during the stand-off, we blew two of your ammo dumps into kingdom cum and over that year a damage assessment relieved that India had lost soldiers somewhere in the 300s IN CHAKOTHI SECTOR ALONE.
> That my friend is the power of our handful of soldiers...........



Well then you should hurry up. Kashmiris are being oppressed, your brave and mighty army should waste no time to come to their rescue. Don't you agree?

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## Icarus

Valiant_Soul said:


> Well then you should hurry up. Kashmiris are being oppressed, your brave and mighty army should waste no time to come to their rescue. Don't you agree?



Indeed, but first we need to clean house of your little agents, the Taliban. 
I hope you will wait, we will be with you soon.


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## Fireurimagination

Come on guys, there is no military solution for Kashmir nor proxy nor any other way and if it's there it will favor India being the bigger of the two

The only hope for Pakistan was that the jihadis make life hell for India and bring India on the negotiating table which they tried their level best but again India is too big for this and after 9/11 the whole equation and outlook has changed

The only solution is making the LOC a permanent border with some exceptions here and there, mind you it won't be a very easy idea to sell in India too but it's the most logical one and I can't see any other solution as such

Also I always wanted to ask this, If Pakistan is for Kashmirs independence then why don't they make azad Kashmir in to an independent country knowing India won't budge?


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## Hulk

Kakgeta said:


> This must be your lucky day since your wait is now over:
> India | Amnesty International Report 2009



Sorry man that is not what I asked for, this is quit genral and no data specific to 2009. Oops.

This what it has, nothing major really.

Between June and August, central security forces shot and killed at least 40 people who defied curfew restrictions. The curfew had been imposed during demonstrations and counter-demonstrations over a proposal to transfer forest land to the Amarnath Shrine Board. 

If you break curfew prepare to die, most of these were in Hindu dominate Jammu.

Impunity continued for past offences including enforced disappearances of thousands of people during the armed conflict in Kashmir since 1989. 

Since 1989 to long period.


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## DavyJones

Kakgeta said:


> Battlefield, if you sit in England, you will never encounter anyone in the Battlefield, and for your information I was there in Chakothi, during the stand-off, we blew two of your ammo dumps into kingdom cum and over that year a damage assessment reported that India had lost soldiers somewhere in the 300s IN CHAKOTHI SECTOR ALONE.
> That my friend is the power of our handful of soldiers...........



Kakgeta - you must be joking!! 
If such a thing happened it would be big news - where are the links to such an incident? If you are an eyewitness - details please ? And where do you get the figure of 300?
A handful of soldiers can't hold ground and carry out sustained attacks - that's why we have such large number of soldiers in our armies! I doubt if you are in the army. Or maybe just a sepoy feeding on propoganda?

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## Hulk

Seperatist does not get paid to protest against Militants as simple as that. They do not care about people of Kashmir, they only care about opposing GOI.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> I will gladly listen to your explanation as to why 'artificially generated separatist sentiments' is same as 'lack of popular support for separatist sentiments', and in what context these become different.
> 
> Strawman. I never questioned the popularity, which you keep on implying. I understand that you have to stick with this line of argument, because otherwise your argument falls apart.


Like I said - just more gibberish on your part. How about you define 'artificially created seperatism' in the context of Kashmir, since so far you have merely been jumping around trying to obfuscate. My interpretation of your comments (and my opinion that they are irrational) has been made obvious in past posts.



> Not really. UNSC and India have never accepted that Pakistan has a claim. What has been accepted is that Kashimiris will be given an option to decide, to which country they would want to accede their land, once certain conditions are fulfilled. It doesn't give Pakistan any claim. It gives Kashmiris a claim.


More nonsense and distortion of the issue - the fact that the UNSC resolutions call for negotiations on bilateral (not unilateral demilitarization) makes clear that Pakistan is a party to the dispute. The fact that Pakistan is one of the two choices the Kashmiris have to make in the referendum to be conducted in kashmir makes it more than clear that Pakistan has a claim and is a party to a dispute.



> What you are deliberately refusing to address is, whether funding of a movement, whatever that movement be, by an interested party makes the movement tainted or not? For example, if a pro-tobacco movement be credible if it is sponsored by tobacco companies. Or if an argument for liberal corporate tax law be credible if the political party pushing it is sponsored by the corporates who benefit from such law. It shouldn't be too difficult to wrap your head around that.


Are you bonkers? If an interested party is not going to support an issue then who on earth is? Your arguments are absolute nonsense at this point. The territory is disputed, Pakistan is a party to the dispute and is supporting the entities in Kashmir that continue to demand their right to self-determination, as has been promised them by the UNSC, India and Pakistan.



> Hope you intend to practice what you preach.


I am not the one complaining about Indian funding going into Kashmir and various Kashmiri politicians and entities being on the payroll of India. 


> It was Pakistani leadership that backtracked on implementing UNSC resolution, that called for unilateral withdrawal of 'tribesmen and Pakistani citizen'. Our commitment was conditional to that, and other factors. None got fulfilled and hence no plebiscite.


We backtracked on nothing - the UNSC resolutions were held up due to Indian obstinacy on refusing to agree to proposals by the UN rapporteur on Indian and Pakistani force levels. All withdrawals were contingent on negotiations between India, Pakistan and the UNSC appointed rapporteur/commission, as has been pointed out to you elsewhere.


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## DavyJones

Agnostic Muslim - I don't think anyone in India believes in the UN resolution on Kashmir - it's not gonna happen - no one is going to implement it. UN can't enforce it as well - so realistically Pakistan can forget about it.

The issue is about seperatist leaders - I suggest that they fight elections in Kashmir - win them with massive majorities and then ask for a secession from the Indian state. That can be a form of referendum for them - why haven't they done that ? I'm really perplexed. India will have nowhere to hide in case this happens. They can call for international observors and try to win the elections.


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## Hulk

I agree if they win election and then say we want to seperate, they will find lot of traction. Better approach IMO.

In-fact this can be one way of getting referendum, if they have good number thinks will looks serious. All huriyat should fight election with agenda that I want to seperate, then ask for vote on it.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Spitfighter said:


> Really? then explain the following..
> 
> *why hasn't Pakistan pulled its troops out from AK? *


Because the UNSC resolutions do not call for a unilateral, unconditional withdrawal by Pakistan. The demilitarization was subject to negotiations between India, Pakistan and the UNSC appointed rapporteur/commission. Unilateral withdrawal by either side was quite obviously seen as unfeasible given that neither side trusted the other to follow through.



> Why did Pakistan cross the LoC in 1965?


Why did India integrate kashmir into India and the GoI suggest that the status quo was their preferred solution?



> Why did Pakistan cross the LoC in 1999?


Why did you invade Siachen in 1984?


> What part of the UNSC resolutions has Pakistan implemented over the last 60 years?


More than India - you lot blatantly refuse to implement them.



> How can you be so sure about Pakistan's intentions of 'uniting divided Kashmir' if Pakistan has repeatedly failed to do what it asks of India?


We have not failed on anything - our demands remain the same - a free and fair plebiscite to let the Kashmiris decide which nation they wish to be a part of.

It is India that has steadfastly violated its commitment to the UNSC resolutions as well as the promise to the Kashmiris to allow self-determination.


> Regardless of whether a unilateral withdrawal is required or not, Pakistan violated the resolutions twice, in 65 and 99.


A unilateral withdrawal is not required and, AFAIK, Pakistan did not cross the LoC to 'strengthen its military positions' but to stir up a rebellion by Kashmiris to force India back to the negotiating table and implement the promise of referendum. The war itself was started by India.

As for the relevant thread - that would be the UNSC resolutions sticky in this section.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

indianrabbit said:


> I agree if they win election and then say we want to seperate, they will find lot of traction. Better approach IMO.
> 
> In-fact this can be one way of getting referendum, if they have good number thinks will looks serious. All huriyat should fight election with agenda that I want to seperate, then ask for vote on it.



The promise of being allowed self-determination has been given them, and endorsed by the UNSC. Whether the separatists participate or not in elections should have no bearing on this. Elections tend to be about multiple local issues, employment, development, etc. 

For example, KAGK in NWFP was strongly opposed to the idea of Pakistan and joining Pakistan. His party won the elections before partition overwhelmingly, and yet when the referendum on joining Pakistan was held a year or so later, the people of the NWFP overwhelmingly chose to join Pakistan. So elections will not necessarily provide much of an indicator of what Kashmiri sentiments are, just as they did not provide a good indicator of what Pashtun sentiments towards joining Pakistan were.

In addition, this is an international dispute with Pakistan as a party to the dispute and with a claim to the territory. A referendum specifically on the question of deciding their future status is the only thing that can properly illustrate Kashmiri sentiments on the issue, along with resolving the dispute.


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## Hulk

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The promise of being allowed self-determination has been given them, and endorsed by the UNSC. Whether the separatists participate or not in elections should have no bearing on this. Elections tend to be about multiple local issues, employment, development, etc.
> 
> For example, KAGK in NWFP was strongly opposed to the idea of Pakistan and joining Pakistan. His part won the elections before partition overwhelmingly, and yet when the referendum on joining Pakistan was held a year or so later, the people of the NWFO overwhelmingly chose to join Pakistan. So elections will not necessarily provide much of an indicator of what Kashmiri sentiments are, just as they did not provide a good indicator of what Pashtun sentiments towards joining Pakistan were.
> 
> In addition, this is an international dispute with Pakistan as a party to the dispute and with a claim to the territory. A referendum specifically on the question of deciding their future status is the only thing that can properly illustrate Kashmiri sentiments on the issue, along with resolving the dispute.



Agreed but when you fight election with just 1 single agenda, you get good votes then it can lay foundation for future referendum.

If they get million votes together no one can ignore that anymore.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

DavyJones said:


> Agnostic Muslim - I don't think anyone in India believes in the UN resolution on Kashmir - it's not gonna happen - no one is going to implement it. UN can't enforce it as well - so realistically Pakistan can forget about it.


I suggest Indians give up their colonialist attitude and implement their promises to the Kashmiris and the world community to allow the Kashmiris self-determination.

The issue here is of Indian attitudes, they have to change.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

indianrabbit said:


> Agreed but when you fight election with just 1 single agenda, you get good votes then it can lay foundation for future referendum.
> 
> If they get million votes together no one can ignore that anymore.



But people do not vote on a single agenda usually in domestic elections - they vote on multiple issues.

If India were to promise that if the separatists won the elections they would allow the UN to hold a referendum, then I could see the people voting in favor of a single issue.


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## DavyJones

AM - you still haven't answered the question ? Why don't the seperatists fight elections - we know that Pak has a hand in that decision - a Frank Answer please!

After they win - they can tell the world what they want as elected representatives - not as lackeys of a foreign power (Pak) - they have no credibilty anymore outside of Pak.

India will have no where to hide after they win elections. 

Listen if we talk about promises - The Simla agreement is null and void after Kargil, The Lahore declaration was followed by Kargil. There is no trust anymore. Talking about UN resolutions - before 1989 there was no clamour for that in the valley - Op Gibraltor in 1965 was defeated by Kashmiris - how do you explain that?

The 1989 disturbances and rebellion was incited by Pak flush from beating the Soviet Union in Afghanistan using the jehad banner! 
That's the truth my friend.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

DavyJones said:


> AM - you still haven't answered the question ? Why don't the seperatists fight elections - we know that Pak has a hand in that decision - a Frank Answer please!


I did answer the question in my responses to IndianRabbit - no point repeating them. I imagine you are reading the rest of the posts?


> The Simla agreement is null and void after Kargil,


Actually the Simla agreement was null and void after India's Siachen incursion.



> Talking about UN resolutions - before 1989 there was no clamour for that in the valley - Op Gibraltor in 1965 was defeated by Kashmiris - how do you explain that?


There was no armed insurgency before 1989, that does not mean the Kashmiris did not want the right to self-determination promised them.

Op Gibralter was defeated because it was poorly planned and discovered before it could be implemented - that some Kashmiris tipped off the Indian authorities does not translate into an argument that most or all Kashmiris were opposed to Pakistan at that time. It would be extremely fallacious to argue that. So there is nothing to explain here.


> The 1989 disturbances and rebellion was incited by Pak flush from beating the Soviet Union in Afghanistan using the jehad banner!
> That's the truth my friend.


We cannot incite a widespread insurgency without their being simmering local resentment against India. And if that resentment does not exist, the exercise of self-determination in a referendum should clear all doubts, and Indians have nothing to fear.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Fireurimagination said:


> Also I always wanted to ask this, If Pakistan is for Kashmirs independence then why don't they make azad Kashmir in to an independent country knowing India won't budge?



Why are Indians so insistent on occupying a people and their land? Is this occupation not precisely what you struggled for against the British?

Your government and your leadership swore repeatedly to grant the Kashmiris the right to self determination, accepted the UNSC resolutions outlining that particular solution - do Indians not see the least bit of moral bankruptcy in violating that promise and occupying a people?

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## DavyJones

AM - sorry I did not read your reply before I posted. About multiple issues - Are you scared people will not vote in the seperatists cause they have only one issue ? Not very good leaders are they ?
The Kashmiri people are not daft in thinking that joining with Pak will solve their problems - before the seperatists set up a clear plan for the future, they will continue being mere agitators propped up by Pak who whip up some street protests.
See the Maoists in contrast - alternative government - complete ideaology - more successful than Kashmiri militants and seperatists.


About Siachen - was LoC defined in the Siachen area? It was not - India beat Pak to the area - as a Pak army officer observed -" they beat us by a week - too bad " 

The LoC ended just before Siachen - so technically India did not cross the LoC - I hope you agree  Smart we Indians!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

EjazR said:


> *@Materialistic*
> 
> No one is denying its muslim majority (68% according to 2001 census). But you are ASSUMING that all muslims would vote to join Pakistan.



No, we would prefer that the Kashmiris exercise self-determination as promised them by the Indian leadership and the UNSC to determine their sentiments, a promise and right India continues to blatantly violate and deny.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Khajur said:


> Trying to rewrite history ??
> 
> Indian army went to kashmir *only after the signing up the instrument of accession *by the maharaha Hari singh.


That the IA went in after the IoA was signed is disputed since certain events and the logistics required to accomplish the IA deployment do not support the Indian argument.

Secondly, there is doubt over the validity of the Instrument of Accession as well, since (last I checked) no one has seen the original.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

DavyJones said:


> AM - sorry I did not read your reply before I posted. About multiple issues - Are you scared people will not vote in the seperatists cause they have only one issue ? Not very good leaders are they ?
> The Kashmiri people are not daft in thinking that joining with Pak will solve their problems - before the seperatists set up a clear plan for the future, they will continue being mere agitators propped up by Pak who whip up some street protests.
> See the Maoists in contrast - alternative government - complete ideaology - more successful than Kashmiri militants and seperatists.


No, I don't think the people will necessarily vote for separatists on one issue, because the separatists winning the elections will not mean that the kashmiris get the choice of separating.

If the GoI were to declare that a separatist win in an election would trigger self-determination, then I see the separatists possibly wining.



> About Siachen - was LoC defined in the Siachen area? It was not - India beat Pak to the area - as a Pak army officer observed -" they beat us by a week - too bad "
> 
> The LoC ended just before Siachen - so technically India did not cross the LoC - I hope you agree  Smart we Indians!


The Simla agreement states the following:
_*
(ii) That the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations or by any other peaceful means mutually agreed upon between them. Pending the final settlement of any of the problems between the two countries, neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation and both shall prevent the organisation, assistance or encouragement of any acts detrimental to the maintenance of peace and harmonious relations.*_

Indian accounts of the invasion of Siachen indicate that the Indians were concerned over Pakistan granting permits to mountaineering expeditions, which in the Indian opinion went against their interpretation of Siachen as being on their side of the LoC. Those concerns should have been taken up through negotiations and dialog with Pakistan on the issue as prescribed by Simla - instead India chose to invade Siachen.

So yes, it was a violation of Simla.


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## DavyJones

AM - there was a lot going behind the scene in 1984. India was starting discussions on Siachen after hearing about the moutaineering expeditions. But Pak wanted to take over the area - evidence - when Indians went to buy high altitude equipment for Siachen - they found the Pakistanis were buying the same equipment from the same shop! That rang some alarm bells. The Pakistanis were intending to capture Siachen by surprise as well -I'm sure Pak soldiers of that time will back up this claim - they just got beaten to the heights. Possession is nine tenths of the law! Pak and India both know that! We kicked you out of Kargil - You tried hard in Siachen but we held on. Better move on and try dialogue. Lahore was spoiled and dialogue process stopped due to Kargil. Pak needs India to talk - you can't beat us in the battlefield - truth


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## paritosh

Kakgeta said:


> It seems through this discussion that India has no intention to end the bloodbath in Kashmir.
> Respected Indian members do not tell me that you are unaware of the gross violations of basic human rights by your forces in Kashmir, do not tell me you still feel no pity for them(the Kashmiris), if you do then work to stop these violations and maybe Kashmiris will drop their demand of secession.
> Simple............



two different issues...we don't support human rights violation of any kind...
there are atrocities committed by both the IA and the "freedom fighters"
as far as the ones caused by our side...yes punishment of tthe most severe kind must be dished.

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## Hulk

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> But people do not vote on a single agenda usually in domestic elections - they vote on multiple issues.
> 
> If India were to promise that if the separatists won the elections they would allow the UN to hold a referendum, then I could see the people voting in favor of a single issue.



Hard to believe that people who are waiting to get Independence from India for 60 years will not use this opprtunity to convey their message. I beleive it can be a good starting point towards resolution.


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## Iggy

Omar questions separatists' silence over killing of child


father in Shopian in South KashJammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah questioned the silence of separatist leaders over the barbaric killing of a three-year-old boy and his mir, terming their stand as "hypocritical".

"Why are separatist leaders silent on this issue?" Omar said while reacting to the killing of toddler Arif allegedly by militants of Hizbul Mujahideen along with his father in Shopian on Thursday.

Aslam Awam was fired upon indiscriminately by Hizbul militants and Arif was in his lap when the incident took place.

Hizbul Mujahideen were on a lookout for Aslam and had made an attempt on his life on the intervening night of April 14-15 also.

Though he managed to escape death, the militants killed his 60-year-old mother Reshma. "Where are Yasin Malik and other separatist leaders? This is the worst form of hypocritical politics", the Chief Minister said. 

Omar said the situation would have been different, if the child had been accidentally killed in firing by security forces.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/omar-questions-separatists-silence-over-kil/493597/

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## Iggy

Where is Kashmir's conscience?

Is Kashmir's conscience dead? The answer, most definitely, seems yes. Recently, J&K CM Omar Abdullah hit the nail on its head when he lashed out at the separatists for their silence on the killing of a three-year-old by terrorists.

Why separatists alone, the whole of Kashmir should answer this question. Really, where are the protests now? Where is the Valley's anger &#8211; so visible, at the drop of a hat, all these years? Why, all of a sudden, has Kashmir forgotten to take to the streets -- stones in hands and tears in eyes? The same Kashmir, which burned with rage over the rape-cum-murder of two women in Shopian, has its eyes closed when the perpetrators of the crime are terrorists.

Don't get me wrong, no one is condoning the brutality in Shopian. Anyone who outrages the modesty of women should be punished. But what about these double standards? How about a little anger against the terrorists from across the border who have killed anywhere between 65,000 to 1,00,000 people since 1989? All in the name of freedom?

In an indirect attack on the separatists at a function in Srinagar, Omar said: "They prominently organize marches and give &#8216;chalo calls' to highlight violation of human rights...These elements resort to politics of hypocrisy." Fairness, morality and respect for human rights demand these elements should raise same voice whenever terrorists kill civilians, he said.

Bang on, Mr Abdullah. Or do human rights apply to terrorists alone? Maybe. The Shopian incident has resulted in prolonged protests. At the same time, the killings by terrorists have continued unabated. They, of course, go unnoticed. Why this anger against security forces and cops only? Against those same security men who, away from their families, are risking their lives to protect Kashmir? Why no thought before damaging public property, before attacking the people who are there to protect them?

The suffering doesn't seem to end. Repeated terror attacks have happened in Mumbai, Delhi and Bangalore. No point mentioning which country these attacks are coming from. And all in the name of Kashmir. It's time the same Kashmir lent the country a hand. It's time the same Kashmir raised its voice as loud and clear as it raises it against the security forces.

Quite aptly, Omar's comments came on a day when SC questioned the Jammu & Kashmir High Court's order to arrest police officers for their alleged involvement in Shopian rape-cum-murder. The court also rapped the high court for its direction that the bail plea of the accused cops be filed only before it. The SC Bench said: &#8220;Anybody can be arrested. Anybody who has nothing to do with this case can be arrested. What material was there for arrest? Even now, they (state) have been unable to produce the material."

With power comes responsibility. If some jawans and policemen were involved in a heinous crime, they shouldn't go unpunished. But in no civilised society should action be guided by agitation and protests. And in the meantime, it's time for Kashmir as well to show some responsibility. And for our politicians to shed some hypocrisy.

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Free-Kick/entry/where-is-kashmir-s-conscience2


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## Iggy

So much for innocent freedom fighters..still any one claims they are freedom fighters???cold blood terrorists coming across the border..it also very much establishes that those separatists leaders were on a pay roll of Pakistan


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

DavyJones said:


> AM - there was a lot going behind the scene in 1984. India was starting discussions on Siachen after hearing about the moutaineering expeditions. But Pak wanted to take over the area - evidence - when Indians went to buy high altitude equipment for Siachen - they found the Pakistanis were buying the same equipment from the same shop! That rang some alarm bells. The Pakistanis were intending to capture Siachen by surprise as well -I'm sure Pak soldiers of that time will back up this claim - they just got beaten to the heights. Possession is nine tenths of the law! Pak and India both know that! We kicked you out of Kargil - You tried hard in Siachen but we held on. Better move on and try dialogue. Lahore was spoiled and dialogue process stopped due to Kargil. Pak needs India to talk - you can't beat us in the battlefield - truth


There really is no credible confirmation from multiple sources of the 'Pakistan was buying suits from the same supplier' story. But the general point is that India had concerns over Pakistani actions, and should have under the Simla agreement chosen to raise the issue diplomatically and clear the air.

It did not do so and instead militarily occupied Siachen. Whatever excuses you use to justify that occupation, the fact is that India resorted to military force first and therefore violated Simla.

In kargil we didn't really try - we had, for the most part, a few hundred at most largely unsupported troops and militants, while the Indian military applied all of their military might to dislodge them, and even then most posts were in control of Pakistan and vacated by Pakistan following the decision by the GoP, and were not overrun by the Indian Military.

Siachen remains a more equally matched contest in that both sides are using whatever they have available openly.

As for dialog, it is not Pakistan that has refused to engage in negotiations on conducting a plebiscite in various formulations (all of J&K or parts of it etc.).


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

indianrabbit said:


> Hard to believe that people who are waiting to get Independence from India for 60 years will not use this opprtunity to convey their message. I beleive it can be a good starting point towards resolution.



It wont be a good starting point because a separatist win in elections does nothing to advance the demand for a plebiscite, unless India accepts in principle that it will trigger a UN supervised referendum if the separatists win.

The GoI and most Indians realize that if given the choice Kashmiris will not choose India, that is why they refuse to hold a UN monitored plebiscite. So to argue that the separatists need to win an election to somehow 'show Indians' something is a canard. If you don't believe that the Kashmiris don't harbor separatist sentiment then why is India resisting a simple resolution to such a long festering international dispute and insurgency?

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## deckingraj

> But people do not vote on a single agenda usually in domestic elections - they vote on multiple issues.
> 
> If India were to promise that if the separatists won the elections they would allow the UN to hold a referendum, then I could see the people voting in favor of a single issue.



What are you talking about AM...Every election is boycotted by Hurriyat and appeal is made to public for not voting(so far only three of their leaders participated in election with Sajjad Lone loosing in 2009)...Still if people come out and vote at a percentage which is even more than Delhi..Mumbai and other parts then what all we can infer from that??? I have few options which vary from absurd to somewhat logical.. Please have a pick and suggest why you think so??? 

- People are voting because they have no choice(though they can choose not to vote) 
- People are voting because they want to merge with Pakistan
- People are voting becuase they want independent Kashmir
- People are voting because they want to stay with India
- People want a change. People don't care if they stay with India-Pak-Independet. All they want is better and secure future...Indian electoral gives them an opportunity to have a say and choose what they want for Kashmir(though obviously within the constituion of India)

To me the last option sounds logical...

P.S: It would be naive of me to suggest that there are no factions of people who vary from the desire to have Independent Kashmir...merge with Pakistan...Stay with India...However i strongly believe larger chunk don't give a **** and want economic progress...


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## Fireurimagination

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Why are Indians so insistent on occupying a people and their land? Is this occupation not precisely what you struggled for against the British?
> 
> Your government and your leadership swore repeatedly to grant the Kashmiris the right to self determination, accepted the UNSC resolutions outlining that particular solution - do Indians not see the least bit of moral bankruptcy in violating that promise and occupying a people?



That's what I am saying Agno, for argument sake let's us accept India is occupying Kashmir illegally etc etc, how is then Pakistan any different than India, isn't it also holding on to Kashmir illegally, why can't Pakistan go for a referendum in azad Kashmir and make it in to an independent country? All I am saying is when it comes to Kashmir we are no different i.e. India and Pakistan


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Fireurimagination said:


> That's what I am saying Agno, for argument sake let's us accept India is occupying Kashmir illegally etc etc, how is then Pakistan any different than India, isn't it also holding on to Kashmir illegally, why can't Pakistan go for a referendum in azad Kashmir and make it in to an independent country? All I am saying is when it comes to Kashmir we are no different i.e. India and Pakistan



That is not true - Pakistan and India are not the same on the Kashmir issue. Pakistan very clearly points out that it wants the Kashmiris in some formulation to be given the right to self-determination, while the Indians refuse.

We are for settling the dispute whereas India is for perpetuating the status quo and leaving Kashmiris and Kashmir divided.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

deckingraj said:


> What are you talking about AM...Every election is boycotted by Hurriyat and appeal is made to public for not voting(so far only three of their leaders participated in election with Sajjad Lone loosing in 2009)...Still if people come out and vote at a percentage which is even more than Delhi..Mumbai and other parts then what all we can infer from that??? I have few options which vary from absurd to somewhat logical.. Please have a pick and suggest why you think so???
> 
> - People are voting because they have no choice(though they can choose not to vote)
> - People are voting because they want to merge with Pakistan
> - People are voting becuase they want independent Kashmir
> - People are voting because they want to stay with India
> - People want a change. People don't care if they stay with India-Pak-Independet. All they want is better and secure future...Indian electoral gives them an opportunity to have a say and choose what they want for Kashmir(though obviously within the constituion of India)
> 
> To me the last option sounds logical...
> 
> P.S: It would be naive of me to suggest that there are no factions of people who vary from the desire to have Independent Kashmir...merge with Pakistan...Stay with India...However i strongly believe larger chunk don't give a **** and want economic progress...



You touch on the point I am making, though you draw somewhat different conclusions from it.

After 60 years of no progress, with India showing no sign of movement towards self-determination, the average kashmiri would vote on local issues of jobs, development etc, and not on a single separatist agenda. For the average kashmiri, how would voting in separatists change anything given India's blatant refusal to implement its promise of self-determination?

Only a referendum on choosing between India and Pakistan can resolve that issue, and Indian fears of where Kashmiri loyalties lie is precisely why India continues to refuse to allow self-determination. If you have so much faith in kashmiri loyalty to India, then why is the easiest means to resolving this international dispute and normalizing and dramatically changing the landscape of South Asia not being implemented?


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## SSG VIPER

Fireurimagination said:


> That's what I am saying Agno, for argument sake let's us accept India is occupying Kashmir illegally etc etc, how is then Pakistan any different than India, isn't it also holding on to Kashmir illegally, why can't Pakistan go for a referendum in azad Kashmir and make it in to an independent country? All I am saying is when it comes to Kashmir we are no different i.e. India and Pakistan



Okay give me a simple answer 
do kashmiris like u hindu indians ??
How many kashmiris are in ur army???
Why anti indi protests??
Why pro PAKISTAN RALLIES???
Why u have more then half a million troops in kashmir???
NOWLETS COME TO UR FAKE BASELESS AND ABSURD ACCUSATIONS ABOUT PAKISTAN
Have u ever heard of Anti Pakistan protest??
Have u ever heard of freedom or seperatist movement in AZAQD KASHMIR??
Does PAKISTAN HAVE SUCH A LARGE MILITARY PRESENCE IN AZAD KASHMIR\???
Any Murder or rapes by army in AZAD KASHMIR????????
Do u know about KASHMIRIS IN PAKISTAN ARMY????? AZAD KASHMIR REGIMENTS AND HOW MANY ARE IN PAK ARMY??????
If u havent then u should go and shut the bloody hell up and take ur kind out of OUR KASHMIR AND GET BLOODY LOST///////
FREE KASHMIR
GREATER PAKISTAN


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## abbasniazi

Kashmiris are by nature and geography Pakistanis, and the denial of this fact by india has provoked the hatred in both countries.

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## DavyJones

hmm.. AM fair points - just one concern -
1. Why was Pakistan hiding behind militants, freedom fighters in Kargil all the time? When it were troops from the NLI only and no militants (you have to agree on this -no lies on this one - no militants can operate at 4000m - mountain warfare specialists are required) India never said Siachen was occupied by "militants" it did so openly. Why did'nt Pak come out openly and say this is payback for Siachen!
My hypothesis - Siachen incursion is debatable - no one in the right. Pak by crossing LoC is definitely wrong - so it denied it!


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## deckingraj

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It wont be a good starting point because a separatist win in elections does nothing to advance the demand for a plebiscite, unless India accepts in principle that it will trigger a UN supervised referendum if the separatists win.



Why shall we give any such promises...When india stand is that kashmir is an integral part of India then this condition for separatist to hold election holds little ground....Secondly separatist win would rest all the claims of GOI that Kashmiri's want to be with India 



> The GoI and most Indians realize that if given the choice Kashmiris will not choose India, that is why they refuse to hold a UN monitored plebiscite.



well that can be your POV however we don't believe that...There are multiple reasons for not going into plebisite and PAK is equally responsible party in that...(i know you have different views)




> So to argue that the separatists need to win an election to somehow 'show Indians' something is a canard. If you don't believe that the Kashmiris don't harbor separatist sentiment then why is India resisting a simple resolution to such a long festering international dispute and insurgency?



As said there are multiple reasons...Not going into that mode let me ask you if separatist stand in election and win by majority don't you think that is a clear indicator for GOI than people mean business here??? That's the beauty of Democracy...separatists should fight elections on one point agenda - Kashmir Independence or merger with Pakistan or whatever they want....People will let them know what they want...What else can be a bigger proof than this??? This will put all the claims of GOI reluctance for plebisite due to reason A or B and can be used as a tool in UN to put pressure on India....


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## DavyJones

do kashmiris like u hindu indians ??
Hindu Indians - 130 millions Muslim indians, 20 million christians, 20 million Sikhs will take offence!
Kashmiris in Indian Army - Lots - JAKRIF, JAKLI, Ladakh Scouts come to mind!

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## Hulk

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It wont be a good starting point because a separatist win in elections does nothing to advance the demand for a plebiscite, unless India accepts in principle that it will trigger a UN supervised referendum if the separatists win.
> 
> The GoI and most Indians realize that if given the choice Kashmiris will not choose India, that is why they refuse to hold a UN monitored plebiscite. So to argue that the separatists need to win an election to somehow 'show Indians' something is a canard. If you don't believe that the Kashmiris don't harbor separatist sentiment then why is India resisting a simple resolution to such a long festering international dispute and insurgency?



Even if GOI does not promise, do you know the impact of even 10 MLA's shouting on top of voice for Azadi.

If Hurriyat is not winning elections there is no way to find they have mass support. Rallies are not the answer.


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## SSG VIPER

DavyJones said:


> do kashmiris like u hindu indians ??
> Hindu Indians - 130 millions Muslim indians, 20 million christians, 20 million Sikhs will take offence!
> Kashmiris in Indian Army - Lots - JAKRIF, JAKLI, Ladakh Scouts come to mind!



Im talking about MUSLIM KASHMIRIS not indian muslims hell from my side kell em like u did in gujrat
NO OFFENCE TO INDIAN MUSLIMS i was just giving an examples as for KASHMIRIS hope u know WAT THE WORLD AND UNO THINKS ABOUT THEM AND THE STATUS DISPUTED not INDIAN so accept the WORLD decision and go for a REFRENDUM U WILL INSHALLAH FIND OUT UR WORTHPlus u didnt ANWER MY HONEST QUESTIONS DID THE CAT GOT UR TONGUE??
FREE KASHMIR
GREATER PAKISTAN


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## SSG VIPER

DUDE u guys dont respect UN and give them a right.Rest ur usual ranting sorry to say its called BULLSHIT
FREE KASHMIR
GREATER PAKISTAN


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## Iggy

SSG VIPER said:


> do kashmiris like u hindu indians ??



You can ask do Kashmiri like Indians?all Indians are not Hindus..well for your answer its depend up on person to person..you can see a lot of marathis dont like UP people



> How many kashmiris are in ur army???



Large number of youths turn up for army recruitment- Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times



> Why anti indi protests??



Because they can protest to some one who they can complaint with out any fear..who will hear your plea..see the recent double standards of separatists leaders over the killing of a girl by terrorists..why do you think they were all silent??it means they know if they say some thing about them they wont be alive to see another day..



> Why pro PAKISTAN RALLIES???



if you mentioning about a rally Kashmiries holding green flag then sorry buddy all green flags are not Pakistans flag




> Why u have more then half a million troops in kashmir???



its because to counter your country's so called non state actors who recruiting people in the name of religion to blow up people and create anarchy in Kashmir


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## deckingraj

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *You touch on the point I am making*, though you draw somewhat different conclusions from it.



Glad we converse somewhere...



> After 60 years of no progress, with India showing no sign of movement towards self-determination, the average kashmiri would vote on local issues of jobs, development etc, and not on a single separatist agenda. For the average kashmiri, how would voting in separatists change anything given India's blatant refusal to implement its promise of self-determination?



Hang on...Who are separatist?? They are kashmiri's for the betterment of Kashmir right??? If an average kashmiri can vote for NCP or PDP for their local issues of Jobs, development etc than they would be more than willing to vote for separatists for the same...Secondly what is more important for Kashmir?? Economic growth or fight for freedom(which is debatable but using the word for us to not loose focus)???....Why can't separatist do both parallel??



> Only a referendum on choosing between India and Pakistan can resolve that issue, and Indian fears of where Kashmiri loyalties lie is precisely why India continues to refuse to allow self-determination. *If you have so much faith in kashmiri loyalty to India, then why is the easiest means to resolving this international dispute and normalizing and dramatically changing the landscape of South Asia not being implemented?*



Let me spin your question to you...If GOP is so confident that Kashmiri's are so hell bent on Joining Pakistan or for that matter Independent Kashmir but to stay with India why don't you pull out your troops from Kashmir and tell UN we have done our part now ask them to do theirs??? Or are you saying that GOP has nothing to do as per UN resolution and its only GOI who is at fault??

The fact of the matter is that both countries don't want Kashmir to go to either one...*NO MATTER WHAT*...There is no other reason for GOP to give away land to China(something that don't belong to her - Since refrendum has not yet happen)....Average Kashmiri's have realised the fact..its better if other's follow the line...


Lets change our roles for sometime....I would like to hear from you what you think are the faults of GOP(if any) when it comes to resolution of Kashmir??


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## SSG VIPER

seiko said:


> You can ask do Kashmiri like Indians?all Indians are not Hindus..well for your answer its depend up on person to person..you can see a lot of marathis dont like UP people
> 
> 
> 
> Large number of youths turn up for army recruitment- Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times
> 
> 
> 
> Because they can protest to some one who they can complaint with out any fear..who will hear your plea..see the recent double standards of separatists leaders over the killing of a girl by terrorists..why do you think they were all silent??it means they know if they say some thing about them they wont be alive to see another day..
> 
> 
> 
> if you mentioning about a rally Kashmiries holding green flag then sorry buddy all green flags are not Pakistans flag
> 
> 
> 
> 
> its because to counter your country's so called non state actors who recruiting people in the name of religion to blow up people and create anarchy in Kashmir



Dude its still not my answer
This report u labelled is by india not neutral the same media where u showed false reports of elections in kashmir so ur ols ranting about kashmiris in IA is false and about LADAKH SCOUTS dude get a life its paramilityary and has hindu dogras pundits andothers in it so dont make a FOOL out of urself.
About marathis and ups they hate each other coz of provincial difference not BECAUSE THEY WANT FREEDOM AND THE WORLD SUPPORTS THEM LIKE IN KASHMIR???? So dont compare kashmir with UP or CP HOPE U UNDERSTAND????
About indian hindus i meant YOU GUYS???? And i wasnt pointing out that every indian is hindu?
ABOUT GREEN FLAGS SEE THIS PAL




FREE KASHMIR 
GREATER PAKISTAN

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## UchihaCG

Jana said:


> They will decide joining any side or remain independent Only when India get out of their country which is occupied by India.
> 
> 
> And no not irrespective of the credibility of the source because a weak source being quoted for Indian BS is not at all acceptable.



india get out?
Kashmir is rightfully a part of India. Pakistan was the one annexxing it with your stupid excuses "kashmiris are muslims and they want to be a part of Pakistan"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_of_Accession_(Jammu_and_Kashmir)

if you are so sweet and would like Kashmiris having freedom, then why does your government oppress Kashmiri nationalists? Before pointing fingers at us, deal with Azad Kashmir.


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## EjazR

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No, we would prefer that the Kashmiris exercise self-determination as promised them by the Indian leadership and the UNSC to determine their sentiments, a promise and right India continues to blatantly violate and deny.



Yes I guess eventually there has to be some sort of self-determination, but that is not possible until militants across the border continue to terroise and kill people who don't support a pro-pakistani point of view. The United "Jihad" Council in Muzaffarabad is still funcitoning and so are the associated groups with it. The people of Kashmir have rejected violence and its time for GoP to listen to the Kashmiris and shut them down.

A peaceful, free and fair atmosphere must be established on both sides of Kashmir. China should return to either Pakistan or India the areas of Kashmir is wrongly occupies and both Pakistan and India should engage the local Kashmiris to find the solution.


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## Goodperson

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That the IA went in after the IoA was signed is disputed since certain events and the logistics required to accomplish the IA deployment do not support the Indian argument.
> 
> Secondly, there is doubt over the validity of the Instrument of Accession as well, since (last I checked) no one has seen the original.



Hmmm.... Copy was posted on official website it has been removed and not seen since 2005-06. Thats the reason why this question occurs.

Well Just give a thought why this question after 60 yrs ?


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## Halaku Khan

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It wont be a good starting point because a separatist win in elections does nothing to advance the demand for a plebiscite, unless India accepts in principle that it will trigger a UN supervised referendum if the separatists win.
> 
> The GoI and most Indians realize that if given the choice Kashmiris will not choose India, that is why they refuse to hold a UN monitored plebiscite. So to argue that the separatists need to win an election to somehow 'show Indians' something is a canard. If you don't believe that the Kashmiris don't harbor separatist sentiment then why is India resisting a simple resolution to such a long festering international dispute and insurgency?



I'm sure there are some Kashmiris who do have separatist sentiment, but every opinion poll shows that most of them prefer staying with India to becoming part of Pakistan. India does not conduct a plebiscite in J&K for the same reason that Pakistan does not conduct a plebiscite in Balochistan. Don't say that J&K is "disputed territory" because the UN is not in the business of recognizing boundaries of nations, or of deeming territories to be disputed or non-disputed. 

If the Hurriyat were to win elections, they would have a legitimate platform from which to discuss the full spectrum of issues, including the constitutional status of J&K. Right now it cannot be said that they represent anybody other than their paymasters in Pakistan.


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Like I said - just more gibberish on your part. How about you define 'artificially created seperatism' in the context of Kashmir, since so far you have merely been jumping around trying to obfuscate. My interpretation of your comments (and my opinion that they are irrational) has been made obvious in past posts.


You have interpreted my comments in a manner that would help you to argue your points through. Although I have never questioned the popularity of separatist movement in Kashmir, your coming back to this question again and again, is intellectual dishonesty. That is precisely why instead of explaining, or so to say backing up your claim that 'artificially generated separatist sentiments' is same as 'lack of popular support for separatist sentiments' you have retorted with empty rhetoric. My first post should have made it aptly clear what I meant by artificially created seperatism. No point in repeating.


> More nonsense and distortion of the issue - the fact that the UNSC resolutions call for negotiations on bilateral (not unilateral demilitarization) makes clear that Pakistan is a party to the dispute. The fact that Pakistan is one of the two choices the Kashmiris have to make in the referendum to be conducted in kashmir makes it more than clear that Pakistan has a claim and is a party to a dispute.


Absolute nonsense. Not to mention, another strawman. 

Nobody denies Pakistan is not a party to the Kashmir dispute. But being a party to a dispute doesnt imply claim, neither does it automatically generate a claim. Any Tom, Dick and Harry can be a party to any dispute, just by being a party to a litigation and thats exactly how Pakistan became a 'party'. Since Pakistan happens to be one of the two choices, it makes Pakistan a party and just that. No more. Kashmiris right to choose Pakistan (or India), doesnt give Pakistan any right to claim Kashmir or any part of it, before the choice has been made in Pakistans favour. Just because I get to chose between numerous cigarette brands, it doesnt mean that every single brand available in my city, can claim me as a user of their brand. That is patently absurd. 

Neither does Pakistan have any legal document similar to Instrument of Accession to make a claim. Long story short  Pakistan doesnt have any claim on Kashmir although it is definitely a party to the Kashmir dispute.


> Are you bonkers? If an interested party is not going to support an issue then who on earth is? Your arguments are absolute nonsense at this point. The territory is disputed, Pakistan is a party to the dispute and is supporting the entities in Kashmir that continue to demand their right to self-determination, as has been promised them by the UNSC, India and Pakistan.


This time around, you have simply redefined interested party, in spite of me clarifying what I mean by that term. The term interested party has specific legal connotation but since you chose to completely ignore that  necessary for your arguments  I am guessing that trying it all over again would be an exercise in futility. 

Support can take many forms. Support by means of directly financing a movement, makes the integrity of the movement a suspect, because then the so called movement would be maneuvered to cater to the specific interest of the paymaster. I understand that this concept is harder than rocket science. But then again subterfuge has its perks. 


> I am not the one complaining about Indian funding going into Kashmir and various Kashmiri politicians and entities being on the payroll of India.


You are not, because you cant. If you could you would have. Remember that Christine Fair comment of pumping money? 

Sure you do.


> We backtracked on nothing - the UNSC resolutions were held up due to Indian obstinacy on refusing to agree to proposals by the UN rapporteur on Indian and Pakistani force levels. All withdrawals were contingent on negotiations between India, Pakistan and the UNSC appointed rapporteur/commission, as has been pointed out to you elsewhere.


What negotiations do you expect to make to withdraw all your tribesmen and citizens.


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The Simla agreement states the following:
> _*
> (ii) That the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations or by any other peaceful means mutually agreed upon between them. Pending the final settlement of any of the problems between the two countries, neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation and both shall prevent the organisation, assistance or encouragement of any acts detrimental to the maintenance of peace and harmonious relations.*_
> 
> Indian accounts of the invasion of Siachen indicate that the Indians were concerned over Pakistan granting permits to mountaineering expeditions, which in the Indian opinion went against their interpretation of Siachen as being on their side of the LoC. Those concerns should have been taken up through negotiations and dialog with Pakistan on the issue as prescribed by Simla - instead India chose to invade Siachen.
> 
> So yes, it was a violation of Simla.


That kind of argument flies both ways.

Why was Pakistan granting visas/permits without first verifying with India, what India&#8217;s interpretation of Siachen was, knowing pretty well that if India&#8217;s interpretation differed from theirs, India won&#8217;t be taking it charitably ? That Indian interpretation would be different was highly likely, given the vagueness of the demarcation at Siachen. That alone qualified as &#8216;_*organisation, assistance or encouragement*_&#8217; of an act that was &#8216;_*detrimental to the maintenance of peace and harmonious relations*_&#8217;, and hence an attempt to &#8216;*unilaterally alter the situation*&#8217; of _status quo_, while determination of Siachen question remained &#8216;*pending*&#8217;.

So yes, if by your logic India 'violated' the Shimla agreement, then by the same logic, Pakistan violated it before India did.

Besides, India never &#8216;invaded&#8217; Siachen. Siachen was always a part of India.

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## ssheppard

*Separatists cant hide their faces now: PC*

Home Minister P Chidambaram Thursday strongly condemned the brutal killing of a 20-year-old girl by unidentified militants in Shopian and took on the separatists for their silence on the issue. 

Speaking to a news channel, Chidambaram said, *I condemn the brutal killing of an innocent girl. This is bizarre, what does she have to do with militancy? They (militants) have no ethics.* 

Unidentified gunmen had fired at Shiraza Akhtar, a resident of Keller village in Shopian district of Kashmir, from point blank range, killing her instantly. No organisation or individual has claimed responsibility for it till now. 

Chidambaram said that this is not the first time the militants have carried out such a cowardly act as they have killed many innocents: Reshma Begum, Mohd Aslam Alam, Nagina, who where completely innocents. 

*Taking on the hardliner separatists for their apparent silence on the issue, Chidambaram said, They are embarrassed, they dont know where to hide their faces. *

*He also pointed out that whenever there is even a hint of the involvement of security forces in any case, they (separatists) are up in arms, but now when an innocent is killed at the hands of militants, they are silent. *

Demanding that Hurriyat take a position on this issue, Chidambaram said, They should come with a united stand on these killings. 



Chidambaram added that the J&K police have been asked to leave no stone unturned to nab the people behind the brutal killing of Shiraza. 

However, the Home Minister was quick to make it clear that by pointing out to the alleged human rights violations by security forces, he was not in any way trying to defend any wrongdoing. 

Chidambaram was also confident regarding the process of dialogue with the separatists in Jammu and Kashmir. 

On the massive protests by people against the CBI report on the alleged double rape & murder in Shopian, Chidambaram said, How can someone who has nothing to do with investigation just stand and say I condemn the CBI report. This is bizarre you cannot win this argument How can people inquire into a report? 

An investigative agency can only probe it. Even I can't investigate. We must faith in CBI, the minister added. 

Shopian Killings : Separatists don?t know where to hide Face


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## vsdoc

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Is this occupation not precisely what *you* struggled for against the British?



Funny, but we were taught that *you* struggled against the British too, alongside *us* .....

Or are you implying that *you* watched by the sidelines during the struggle, and only came forward when it was time to claim *your share* of the pie? 

Or were *you* on the side of the British, fighting *us*?

And if *you* like *us* were fighting together against *foreign occupation*, pray tell what are *you* doing still holding on to the *whole of Balochistan*, who have wanted to be *free and independent of pakistani rule* for the *past 62 years* and have *fought three wars of Independence against pakistan for the same since 1947?*

Cause after all, if you claim Balochistan ceded to pakistan, then similarly Kashmir ceded to India.

So where is the problem or issue? Infact, unlike you, we never opportunistically invaded Balochistan like you did Kashmir ..... *so are you saying we need/ed to do that to right the balance and present both regions with a mutually counter-claimed "disputed" status, before you learn to mind your business?* 

Confused .....

Cheers, Doc

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## Fireurimagination

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That is not true - Pakistan and India are not the same on the Kashmir issue. Pakistan very clearly points out that it wants the Kashmiris in some formulation to be given the right to self-determination, while the Indians refuse.
> 
> We are for settling the dispute whereas India is for perpetuating the status quo and leaving Kashmiris and Kashmir divided.



Pakistan and India are different when it comes to talking the talk but when it comes to walking the walk, both want the whole of Kashmir for themselves. Pakistans stated position about self determination etc is because there is no independence clause in UN charter and/or they know India won't agree to it hence just to take moral high ground


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## vsdoc

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> We are for settling the dispute whereas India is for perpetuating the status quo and leaving Kashmiris and Kashmir divided.



May I point out the obvious to you AM?

That there was NO dispute and Kashmir was legally and officially India's till Pakistan decided it was not happy with the arrangement (nixed your two-nation theory, muslim unity, yada yada)?

That the status quo was perpetuated by Pakistan in 1947, and India's response was legitimate if delayed defense of its sovereign territory?

That it is Pakistan who is responsible for its botched up attempt to take over the *WHOLE* of Kashmir, thereby dividing Kashmir for posterity, and condemning an entire people to be ripped apart and live divided because of your greed ..... let down by your incompetence in finishing the job? 

If you are so bothered about the status quo and dividing the kashmiri people, return the 30 odd percent of Kashmir back into the majority Indian fold.

Also arrange to take back the part you handed over to the Chinese, and reunite it with greater Indian Kashmir.

Then, and *only* then do you earn the moral high ground to make such statements moving forward. 

Cheers, Doc


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## Hari

*30,000 troops withdrawn from Kashmir: Antony*



> NEW DELHI: Defence minister A K Antony on Friday announced that the Centre has withdrawn around 30,000 troops from Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> 
> 
> A K Antony said two Army divisions comprising around 30,000 troops have been moved out of Kashmir in the wake of improvement in the security situation there.
> 
> Addressing reporters Antony said, "Two Army divisions comprising around 30,000 troops have been moved out of Kashmir due to improvement in the situation there."
> 
> Antony made the announcement just days after home minister P Chidambaram informed the Parliament, that troop reduction in Jammu and Kashmir was on the cards considering improvement in the overall security situation in the northern state.
> 
> Reacting to the Chidambaram's statement, former state chief minister and union minister for new and renewable sources of energy Farooq Abdullah had said that the home minister had finally given good news to the people of Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> "Reduction in the number of troops deployed in the state would definitely ease the tensions here and herald the beginning of peace and development in the state," Abdullah had said.



*http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/30000-troops-withdrawn-from-Kashmir-Antony/articleshow/5351022.cms*

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## Icarus

Fireurimagination said:


> Come on guys, there is no military solution for Kashmir nor proxy nor any other way and if it's there it will favor India being the bigger of the two
> 
> The only hope for Pakistan was that the jihadis make life hell for India and bring India on the negotiating table which they tried their level best but again India is too big for this and after 9/11 the whole equation and outlook has changed
> 
> The only solution is making the LOC a permanent border with some exceptions here and there, mind you it won't be a very easy idea to sell in India too but it's the most logical one and I can't see any other solution as such
> 
> Also I always wanted to ask this, If Pakistan is for Kashmirs independence then why don't they make azad Kashmir in to an independent country knowing India won't budge?



Azad Kashmir is already a free country, as i said before it already has it's own assembly and prime minister, it only shares an army with us as Azad Kashmir lacks the resources and manpower to raise an army large enough to counter India.
As for your solution of handing Kashmir to India in a platter, well i disagree, the UN pledged plebiscite should be held in Kashmir without interference from either parties(Pak and Ind) and the Kashmiris should be allowed to make their decision.


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## Icarus

DavyJones said:


> Kakgeta - you must be joking!!
> If such a thing happened it would be big news - where are the links to such an incident? If you are an eyewitness - details please ? And where do you get the figure of 300?
> A handful of soldiers can't hold ground and carry out sustained attacks - that's why we have such large number of soldiers in our armies! I doubt if you are in the army. Or maybe just a sepoy feeding on propoganda?



By "Handful of soldiers" I was referring to Valiantsoul's commment that "Don't tell me Pakistan scared India into a ceasefire with it's HANDFUL OF SOLDIERS"
Secondly, it was indeed news, if you check CNN or BBC archives you will most probably find the news that an indian ammo dump blown up by Pakistani Artillery continues to burn into it's fifth day.
An interview of the CO of 649 Mujahid Battalion(the unit stationed there) with Katrina Hussein may also be on youtube somewhere.
As for the number, it's from a damage assessment, such documents don't meet civilian eyes often, so i can't give source.
Check this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001&#37;E2%80%932002_India%E2%80%93Pakistan_standoff#Cost_of_standoff


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## Icarus

vsdoc said:


> Funny, but we were taught that *you* struggled against the British too, alongside *us* .....
> 
> Or are you implying that *you* watched by the sidelines during the struggle, and only came forward when it was time to claim *your share* of the pie?
> 
> Or were *you* on the side of the British, fighting *us*?
> 
> And if *you* like *us* were fighting together against *foreign occupation*, pray tell what are *you* doing still holding on to the *whole of Balochistan*, who have wanted to be *free and independent of pakistani rule* for the *past 62 years* and have *fought three wars of Independence against pakistan for the same since 1947?*
> 
> Cause after all, if you claim Balochistan ceded to pakistan, then similarly Kashmir ceded to India.
> 
> So where is the problem or issue? Infact, unlike you, we never opportunistically invaded Balochistan like you did Kashmir ..... *so are you saying we need/ed to do that to right the balance and present both regions with a mutually counter-claimed "disputed" status, before you learn to mind your business?*
> 
> Confused .....
> 
> Cheers, Doc



WHAT ? who told you Balochistan has fought 3 wars of independance with Pakistan ? And who said that Balochistan has asked for freedom for 62 years ? There was a revolt in Bhutto's time which was resolved by Zia. Who gave amnesty to all who surrendered.
Now lets talk about today, is Balochistan 4 people ? Cuz those are the only bloody exiles asking for independance. This is not a people's demand unlike in Kashmir, it is just the demand of 4 members of 2 clans of Balochi people, hardly the whole of Balochistan...................
I think someone has been watching too much India Tv..........
LOLX

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## Icarus

vsdoc said:


> May I point out the obvious to you AM?
> 
> That there was NO dispute and Kashmir was legally and officially India's till Pakistan decided it was not happy with the arrangement (nixed your two-nation theory, muslim unity, yada yada)?
> 
> That the status quo was perpetuated by Pakistan in 1947, and India's response was legitimate if delayed defense of its sovereign territory?
> 
> That it is Pakistan who is responsible for its botched up attempt to take over the *WHOLE* of Kashmir, thereby dividing Kashmir for posterity, and condemning an entire people to be ripped apart and live divided because of your greed ..... let down by your incompetence in finishing the job?
> 
> If you are so bothered about the status quo and dividing the kashmiri people, return the 30 odd percent of Kashmir back into the majority Indian fold.
> 
> Also arrange to take back the part you handed over to the Chinese, and reunite it with greater Indian Kashmir.
> 
> Then, and *only* then do you earn the moral high ground to make such statements moving forward.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Firstly Pal, the two nation theory itself was a spin off from the Hindu cry of AKHAND BHARAT. Untill the congress rule of 1937(during which muslims suffered at the hands of saffron terrorists) , seperation was not part of the Muslim League's aim and objectives.
India did not protect it's SOVEREIGN TERRITORY, they made a deal with Dogra and condemned the people of Kashmir to live a life against their will and in a country they wanted freedom from.
And the people RIPPED APART by our greed are living a better life than their Indian counterparts, atleast they don't have to worry that the military will rape their women and abduct their men from home, neither do they have to worry about the extra judicial killings nor ending up in an unmarked mass grave.
Now think over this..................


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## UchihaCG

Red Dwarf said:


> Then it was never part of Pakistan too. If Kashmir was a part of Pakistan, then why you have to *invade* it in 1947.



  



> The Instrument of Accession is a legal document executed by Maharajah Hari Singh, ruler of the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir, on October 26, 1947. The document is highly disputed and Kashmiri separatists organizations and Pakistanis deny the existence of any such agreement between Indian Govt and Maharaja Kashmir. According to the document, With the formal acceptance of the Governor General of India, it settled the question of the accession of the Jammu and Kashmir princely state (including Jammu, Kashmir, Northern Areas, Ladakh, Trans-Karakoram Tract and Aksai Chin) to the Dominion of India.
> 
> Now, therefore, I Shriman Inder Mahander Rajrajeswar Maharajadhiraj Shri Hari Singhji, Jammu and Kashmir Naresh Tatha Tibbetadi Deshadhipathi, Ruler of Jammu and Kashmir (princely state), in the exercise of my sovereignty in and over my said State do hereby execute this my Instrument of Accession and I hereby declare that I accede to the Dominion of India with the intent that the governor-general of India, the Dominion Legislature, the Federal Court and any other Dominion authority established for the purposes of the Dominion shall, by virtue of this my Instrument of Accession but subject always to the terms thereof, and for the purposes only of the Dominion, exercise in relation to the State of Jammu and Kashmir (hereinafter referred to as "this State") such functions as may be vested in them by or under the Government of India Act, 1935, as in force in the Dominion of India, on the 15th day of August, 1947, (which Act as so in force is hereafter referred to as "the Act") ." It is further specified that. "I accept the matters specified in the schedule hereto as the matters with respect to which the Dominion Legislature may make law for this State." Thus the power of the Dominion to make laws was restricted to the matters mentioned in the Schedule namely Defence,Foreign Affairs and Communications and a few ancillary subjects specified in the schedule.For all other matters concurrence of the State Government was essential. The accession was accepted by Lord Mountbatten of Burma, Governor General of India, the following day (October 27, 1947). Mountbatten in his letter of acceptance wrote that "I do hereby accept this Instrument of Accession."


Instrument of Accession (Jammu and Kashmir) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Fireurimagination

Kakgeta said:


> Azad Kashmir is already a free country, as i said before it already has it's own assembly and prime minister, it only shares an army with us as Azad Kashmir lacks the resources and manpower to raise an army large enough to counter India.
> As for your solution of handing Kashmir to India in a platter, well i disagree, the UN pledged plebiscite should be held in Kashmir without interference from either parties(Pak and Ind) and the Kashmiris should be allowed to make their decision.



Azad Kashmir is azad oh is it? What if we give an assembly and prime minister to Indian Kashmir, will that be okay then, problem solved right? UN plebiscite is long dead, Kofi Annan (the then secretary general of UN) said it, Musharraf (your President ) said it and even Shimla agreement which states the issue will be resolved bilaterally was signed way after your UN resolution


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## ghamai

SSG VIPER said:


> united we STAND


'n divided we fall!

I just feel bad for those indians who try to anything 'n everything to divide us while in their own countries millions of people 're trying to flee hindu aggression. shame shame


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## Valiant_Soul

Kakgeta said:


> Indeed, but first we need to clean house of your little agents, the Taliban.
> I hope you will wait, we will be with you soon.



Make sure you do not come tattered to us fighting with our little Taliban agents. And this time make sure not to show your merciful heart to oppressor India and try to make it decisive this time, it is getting boring. Lets see where you go from here in the next 5 years.

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## Red Dwarf

> Originally Posted by Valiant_Soul View Post
> Well then you should hurry up. Kashmiris are being oppressed, your brave and mighty army should waste no time to come to their rescue. Don't you agree?
> Make sure you do not come tattered to us fighting with our little Taliban agents. And this time make sure not to show your merciful heart to oppressor India and try to make it decisive this time, it is getting boring. Lets see where you go from here in the next 5 years.


Are you replying to your own post


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## croptikal

Geelani Sahab has no mass support as of today. He is obviously being funded by Pakistan(it was recently revealed by another Hurriyat leader). There is no surprise in his statements.


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## Valiant_Soul

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Why are Indians so insistent on occupying a people and their land? Is this occupation not precisely what you struggled for against the British?



Let me try and explain to you a different viewpoint of looking at the Kashmir issue. Please drop your emotions regarding Kashmir for a while, as I have dropped mine making this post.

Any country needs to maintain its territorial integrity because it is of utmost importance to make people of the country believe that their nation is secure and capable of protecting its boundaries. One incident of violation of territorial integrity tremendously enhances the possibility of such violation in future as well, so that is not only highly shameful for a nation with such extent but will also be a dampener to the people of country and its armed forces.

Do consider that no country can afford to leave the land under its occupation for this very important reason. Now as far as suppression of people of Kashmir, Indians know that it is untrue, because violation of human rights (on such scale as suggested by some members here, but never conclusively established) cannot go unnoticed in India, the government would have to do a lot of answering otherwise. People, in general, cannot accept that kind of a set-up in their own country, let me assure with that.

Now, in general, Indians do not ask that the other side of Kashmir should be taken back because the whole of Kashmir was acceded. They are more interested in peaceful progress, and now after so many years people do not repel the idea of LoC as the international border. You as a common citizen should also be interested in peace and progress. Since you are making claims on a land that is not with you, then you are the one creating an atmosphere of disturbance.

People of Kashmir can and are living harmoniously in India and Indians do not support biasness of any sort to its citizens. If there are some problems, they would surely be tackled, as the nation becomes more mature. But it is very important for any country to stand united. 

Even then if Pakistan insists, then war is the only option left for both the countries. This is as simple as it can get.

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## Valiant_Soul

Red Dwarf said:


> Are you replying to your own post



It was a mistake, I edited it.


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## Icarus

Fireurimagination said:


> Azad Kashmir is azad oh is it? What if we give an assembly and prime minister to Indian Kashmir, will that be okay then, problem solved right? UN plebiscite is long dead, Kofi Annan (the then secretary general of UN) said it, Musharraf (your President ) said it and even Shimla agreement which states the issue will be resolved bilaterally was signed way after your UN resolution



Who will you make the prime minister ? Omar Abdullah ????


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## Icarus

Valiant_Soul said:


> Make sure you do not come tattered to us fighting with our little Taliban agents. And this time make sure not to show your merciful heart to oppressor India and try to make it decisive this time, it is getting boring. Lets see where you go from here in the next 5 years.



God wiiling, if our fight against the Taliban goes as it is going now, we will be going nowhere but up..................by up i mean we will progress.


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## Icarus

croptikal said:


> Geelani Sahab has no mass support as of today. He is obviously being funded by Pakistan(it was recently revealed by another Hurriyat leader). There is no surprise in his statements.



He may not have support and we may be funding him, but millions support the idea of joining Pakistan and i swear we do not have the resources to fund millions...........................


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## Valiant_Soul

Kakgeta said:


> God wiiling, if our fight against the Taliban goes as it is going now, we will be going nowhere but up..................b*y up i mean we will progress.*



Glad you clarified.


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## Icarus

Valiant_Soul said:


> Let me try and explain to you a different viewpoint of looking at the Kashmir issue. Please drop your emotions regarding Kashmir for a while, as I have dropped mine making this post.
> 
> Any country needs to maintain its territorial integrity because it is of utmost importance to make people of the country believe that their nation is secure and capable of protecting its boundaries. One incident of violation of territorial integrity tremendously enhances the possibility of such violation in future as well, so that is not only highly shameful for a nation with such extent but will also be a dampener to the people of country and its armed forces.
> 
> Do consider that no country can afford to leave the land under its occupation for this very important reason. Now as far as suppression of people of Kashmir, Indians know that it is untrue, because violation of human rights (on such scale as suggested by some members here, but never conclusively established) cannot go unnoticed in India, the government would have to do a lot of answering otherwise. People, in general, cannot accept that kind of a set-up in their own country, let me assure with that.
> 
> Now, in general, Indians do not ask that the other side of Kashmir should be taken back because the whole of Kashmir was acceded. They are more interested in peaceful progress, and now after so many years people do not repel the idea of LoC as the international border. You as a common citizen should also be interested in peace and progress. Since you are making claims on a land that is not with you, then you are the one creating an atmosphere of disturbance.
> 
> People of Kashmir can and are living harmoniously in India and Indians do not support biasness of any sort to its citizens. If there are some problems, they would surely be tackled, as the nation becomes more mature. But it is very important for any country to stand united.
> 
> Even then if Pakistan insists, then war is the only option left for both the countries. This is as simple as it can get.



You are prepared for war but fear a plebiscite, you know that Kashmiris will always choose Pakistan.

---------- Post added at 08:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:42 PM ----------




Valiant_Soul said:


> Glad you clarified.



Glad to be of assistance.................


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## Hulk

Kakgeta said:


> You are prepared for war but fear a plebiscite, you know that Kashmiris will always choose Pakistan.




anyone who seriously want to conisder peblistic being help, should definatly ask the sepratist to run for election and try wining it. It will be easier to get your voice heard as a elected representative then as a ordinary person.


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## Icarus

indianrabbit said:


> anyone who seriously want to conisder peblistic being help, should definatly ask the sepratist to run for election and try wining it. It will be easier to get your voice heard as a elected representative then as a ordinary person.



Agreed, but who will let a separatist come to power ????????????


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## croptikal

Kakgeta said:


> but millions support the idea of joining Pakistan and i swear we do not have the resources to fund millions...........................



No. Its true that there are anti-Indian feelings in Kashmir, but people do not want to join Pakistan. They will simply laugh at such a thought. You have to understand that Kashmiris are outsiders and do not share the optimism that Pakistanis here have about Pakistan's future.


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## Hulk

Kakgeta said:


> Agreed, but who will let a separatist come to power ????????????



The people of Kashmir, as you and many others say Kashmir's are dying to be seperated from attrocities of India, if that is the case they will get close to 90% vote in valleys if they fight an election saying they will use it as a ground to move ahead for peblistic.

If the situation in Kashmir is like what you people describe, I have no doubt people will vote for them.

So lets ask someone to standup in election with this strategy.

India is not keen on peblistic, and this way we can now the reality of ground as to what the % of people are who want to seperate or merge to pakistan.

This is quick and simple method to get some numbers in discussion. I know it cannot be perfect but will give a good sense of what the situation is.


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## croptikal

Kakgeta said:


> You fear a plebiscite, you know that Kashmiris will always choose Pakistan.



Plebiscite is not taking place because Pakistan has not been sticking to its end of the bargain. Once Pakistan does its part of resolution, India will do its part of resolution depending on its feasibility.


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## Icarus

croptikal said:


> No. Its true that there are anti-Indian feelings in Kashmir, but people do not want to join Pakistan. They will simply laugh at such a thought. You have to understand that Kashmiris are outsiders and do not share the optimism that Pakistanis here have about Pakistan's future.



I disagree, haven't you ever heard a cry in a Kashmiri rally "Kashmir Banay Ga Pakistan"............?????????????????
Even if they don't want to be a part of Pakistan, it doesn't matter because should they get independence from India they will join Azad Kashmir in any case, which is already a separate state.........


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## bandit

croptikal said:


> No. Its true that there are anti-Indian feelings in Kashmir, but people do not want to join Pakistan. They will simply laugh at such a thought. You have to understand that Kashmiris are outsiders and do not share the optimism that Pakistanis here have about Pakistan's future.



Theres no proof or logic behind the statement that X percentage of Kashmiris want to join Pakistan. Probably Kasmiris want to be free, but that option has been removed by mutual understanding by both India and Pakistan, there is no clause for freedom in the UN plebiscite, so thats a no go. 

Even if one takes a logical standpoint and analyses the situation, why would anyone in the world let alone Kashmiris want to go into Pakistan at the current point of time.

The fact that Pakistan needs to pay these leaders to carry on their separatist demands is proof enough that there is no popular feeling to join Pakistan. 
And the point that all millions of Kashmiris are not paid by Pakistan is true-but who needs to pay all of them when you can just buy out the leaders and let them lead the masses to your desired actions.

Freedom, Yes-Pakistan No.

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## Icarus

indianrabbit said:


> The people of Kashmir, as you and many others say Kashmir's are dying to be seperated from attrocities of India, if that is the case they will get close to 90% vote in valleys if they fight an election saying they will use it as a ground to move ahead for peblistic.
> 
> If the situation in Kashmir is like what you people describe, I have no doubt people will vote for them.
> 
> So lets ask someone to standup in election with this strategy.
> 
> India is not keen on peblistic, and this way we can now the reality of ground as to what the % of people are who want to seperate or merge to pakistan.
> 
> This is quick and simple method to get some numbers in discussion. I know it cannot be perfect but will give a good sense of what the situation is.



You cannot ignore the fact that if such a poll is held, the government will make every attempt to rig it.................that is why i say that if this problem can be solved through a poll then great, go right ahead but it should be overseen by UN.


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## Icarus

croptikal said:


> Plebiscite is not taking place because *Pakistan has not been sticking to its end of the bargain*. Once Pakistan does its part of resolution, India will do its part of resolution depending on its feasibility.



And what part is that ?


----------



## croptikal

Kakgeta said:


> And what part is that ?



Return Pak Occupied Kashmir to India with the same demographics as that of 48. Then Pakistan has the legal and moral right to demand plebiscite.


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## Hulk

Kakgeta said:


> You cannot ignore the fact that if such a poll is held, the government will make every attempt to rig it.................that is why i say that if this problem can be solved through a poll then great, go right ahead but it should be overseen by UN.



No dude, cannot buy that argument. I am not saying that it was not the case in the past, I do not think that will happen today, willing to bet with anyone.

If you are not aware the elections now a days always have netural observers and it is equally important for us that they endorse the election result.

The elections inpast were rigged in the past because we did not had strong media and decomcracies develop over period of time.

There are some rigging that still take place, but by an large it is fair (less the 1% in rigging).

So where people are all against India you can get 70% if not 90%.

I bet the reason the sepratist does not want to go for election is they are not sure themselves of the number.

Lone recently tried his luck but failed. I wanted him to win though (He never said that elections were rigged). So that can tell you a thing or two.


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## Icarus

bandit said:


> Theres no proof or logic behind the statement that X percentage of Kashmiris want to join Pakistan. Probably Kasmiris want to be free, but that option has been removed by mutual understanding by both India and Pakistan, there is no clause for freedom in the UN plebiscite, so thats a no go.
> 
> Even if one takes a logical standpoint and analyses the situation, why would anyone in the world let alone Kashmiris want to go into Pakistan at the current point of time.
> 
> The fact that Pakistan needs to pay these leaders to carry on their separatist demands is proof enough that there is no popular feeling to join Pakistan.
> And the point that all millions of Kashmiris are not paid by Pakistan is true-but who needs to pay all of them when you can just buy out the leaders and let them lead the masses to your desired actions.
> 
> Freedom, Yes-Pakistan No.



Freedom is also good, no arguments from here if that is the decision..............


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## Icarus

croptikal said:


> Return Pak Occupied Kashmir to India with the same demographics as that of 48. Then Pakistan has the legal and moral right to demand plebiscite.



India should fulfil IT'S part of the resolution first by withdrawing it's troops and allowing UN to administer the area.
Plus we cannot handover Azad Kashmir, that is a decision for it's constituent assembly to make.................


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## Icarus

indianrabbit said:


> No dude, cannot buy that argument. I am not saying that it was not the case in the past, I do not think that will happen today, willing to bet with anyone.
> 
> If you are not aware the elections now a days always have netural observers and it is equally important for us that they endorse the election result.
> 
> The elections inpast were rigged in the past because we did not had strong media and decomcracies develop over period of time.
> 
> There are some rigging that still take place, but by an large it is fair (less the 1% in rigging).
> 
> So where people are all against India you can get 70% if not 90%.
> 
> I bet the reason the sepratist does not want to go for election is they are not sure themselves of the number.
> 
> Lone recently tried his luck but failed.[/B] I wanted him to win though (He never said that elections were rigged). So that can tell you a thing or two.



They do not contest the elections because they boycott any election held by India...........


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## croptikal

Kakgeta said:


> India should fulfil IT'S part of the resolution first by withdrawing it's troops and allowing UN to administer the area.
> Plus we cannot handover Azad Kashmir, that is a decision for it's constituent assembly to make.................



No, UN has given India the right to administer the Kashmir and has entrusted it with the duty of conducting a plebiscite. 

So, give back the Occupied Kashmir to us and then ask for a plebscite. 

As for Occupied Kashmir being 'Azad' and not under Pakistani control, this argument is a strawman that no one takes seriously.


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## bandit

Kakgeta said:


> Freedom is also good, no arguments from here if that is the decision..............



Pretty good, just ask yor government to declare such and then we can proceed. And do take your armed forces into confidence, they have a habit of forming their own policies.


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## croptikal

Kakgeta said:


> They do not contest the elections because they boycott any election held by India...........



True. When you get elected and go to assembly or Parliament, the elected representative has to take a vow to protect the integrity and sovereignity of India. In short, agree that Kashmir is an integral part of India.

Hurriyat boycotts the elections and gives a boycott call to the people of Kashmir. People of Kashmir have rejected these calls and participate with great enthusiasm. Thus, regardless of Hurriyat, the people have become a part of Indian democracy.

Though the feelings of people still need to be assauged to a certain extent. It might take another decade.


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## Hulk

Kakgeta said:


> They do not contest the elections because they boycott any election held by India...........



The whole argument boils down to, what you are interested in, some might be interested in getting job done and some othee in ego (I will not do this or do that kinda).


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## Iggy

Kakgeta said:


> God wiiling, *if our fight against the Taliban goes as it is going now, we will be going nowhere but up.*.................by up i mean we will progress.



For a second i doubted your nationality buddy


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## SSG VIPER

There are thousands of videos like these but INDIAN HINDUS LIKE U PEOPLE DONT WANT TO SEE IT (GUM MUM BUK MUM SUM MUM=NO SEE NO HEAR NO WATCH,)
OR MAY BE UR FOLLOWING GANDHIS BUT ONLY OPPOSITLY
UR NEW MODIFIED RULES (DONT LOOK AT THE TRUTH DONT HEAR THE TUTH DONT SAY THE TRUTH)
Is this wat according to ur knowledge masses in indian occupied kashmir want????
FREE KASHMIR
GREATER PAKISTAN

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## Hulk

SSG VIPER said:


> Big deal, I have seen same in Balouchistan, I never said that there is no opposition. Half of these people do not even understand what they are doing.


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## SSG VIPER

indianrabbit said:


> Big deal, I have seen same in Balouchistan, I never said that there is no opposition. Half of these people do not even understand what they are doing.


O laka im from balouchistan so dont teach me about tht B.S indian media crap feed thta u get on zee or ur samachar???UNDERSTAND
and there arent any anti PAKISTAN in Balouchistan if there are they may be very very few with no more then 100 people even most of them standing there to see wats happening????Those protests are for provincial rights NOT FREEDOM FROM INDIAN HINDUS
KAPPISH ????
So stay on the TOPIC AND DONT BRING MY HOME TOWN IN IT LITTLE BOY
FREE KASHMIR
GREATER PAKISTAN

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## Iggy

SSG VIPER said:


> O laka im from balouchistan so dont teach me about tht B.S indian media crap feed thta u get on zee or ur samachar???UNDERSTAND
> and there arent any anti PAKISTAN in Balouchistan if there are they may be very very few with no more then 100 people even most of them standing there to see wats happening????Those protests are for provincial rights NOT FREEDOM FROM INDIAN HINDUS
> KAPPISH ????
> So stay on the TOPIC AND DONT BRING MY HOME TOWN IN IT LITTLE BOY
> FREE KASHMIR
> GREATER PAKISTAN




Buddy its not Hindu India..All Indians are not Hindus..we Christians and also Muslims along with Sikhs , Budhist and people from other religion also lives here..why are so desperate portraying as Hindu India??


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## SSG VIPER

u guys the hindu indians are the biggest hurdles IN RESOLVING KASHMIR..TAKE NEHRUs example assuring the whole world for the solution of KASHMIR doin nothing????SAME LEGACY U GUYS ARE CARRYING


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## VelocuR

self delete

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## Iggy

StealthQL-707PK said:


> Sir,
> 
> in fact, last time, *MAJORITY OF Kashmiris people* *VOTED* to prefer with *Pakistan*,
> 
> Indian ignored it, and keep killing thousand innocent Kashmiris including raping.
> 
> ...................................*FREE K A S H M I R*.........................
> 
> pTvVOswwJNc[/media] - People Shout Pro-Freedom Slogans in Heart Of Srinagar




And when was this election held??


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## Iggy

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes...-s-conscience2

Where is Kashmir's conscience?

Is Kashmir's conscience dead? The answer, most definitely, seems yes. Recently, J&K CM Omar Abdullah hit the nail on its head when he lashed out at the separatists for their silence on the killing of a three-year-old by terrorists.

Why separatists alone, the whole of Kashmir should answer this question. Really, where are the protests now? Where is the Valley's anger  so visible, at the drop of a hat, all these years? Why, all of a sudden, has Kashmir forgotten to take to the streets -- stones in hands and tears in eyes? The same Kashmir, which burned with rage over the rape-cum-murder of two women in Shopian, has its eyes closed when the perpetrators of the crime are terrorists.

Don't get me wrong, no one is condoning the brutality in Shopian. Anyone who outrages the modesty of women should be punished. But what about these double standards? How about a little anger against the terrorists from across the border who have killed anywhere between 65,000 to 1,00,000 people since 1989? All in the name of freedom?

In an indirect attack on the separatists at a function in Srinagar, Omar said: "They prominently organize marches and give chalo calls' to highlight violation of human rights...These elements resort to politics of hypocrisy." Fairness, morality and respect for human rights demand these elements should raise same voice whenever terrorists kill civilians, he said.

Bang on, Mr Abdullah. Or do human rights apply to terrorists alone? Maybe. The Shopian incident has resulted in prolonged protests. At the same time, the killings by terrorists have continued unabated. They, of course, go unnoticed. Why this anger against security forces and cops only? Against those same security men who, away from their families, are risking their lives to protect Kashmir? Why no thought before damaging public property, before attacking the people who are there to protect them?

The suffering doesn't seem to end. Repeated terror attacks have happened in Mumbai, Delhi and Bangalore. No point mentioning which country these attacks are coming from. And all in the name of Kashmir. It's time the same Kashmir lent the country a hand. It's time the same Kashmir raised its voice as loud and clear as it raises it against the security forces.

Quite aptly, Omar's comments came on a day when SC questioned the Jammu & Kashmir High Court's order to arrest police officers for their alleged involvement in Shopian rape-cum-murder. The court also rapped the high court for its direction that the bail plea of the accused cops be filed only before it. The SC Bench said: Anybody can be arrested. Anybody who has nothing to do with this case can be arrested. What material was there for arrest? Even now, they (state) have been unable to produce the material."

With power comes responsibility. If some jawans and policemen were involved in a heinous crime, they shouldn't go unpunished. But in no civilised society should action be guided by agitation and protests. And in the meantime, it's time for Kashmir as well to show some responsibility. And for our politicians to shed some hypocrisy.


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## Bullhead

This election is held every night in Pakistani's dreams....and Pakistan wins 10 out of 10 times.....LOL


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## SSG VIPER

I REQUEST MY FELLOW RESPECTED COUNTRY MEN NOT TO REPLY TO SOME INDIAN TROLL THANKS,
FREE KASHMIR
GREATER PAKISTAN

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## FreekiN

And India calls itself the 'worlds largest democracy.' They should be ashamed of themselves.


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## Kompromat

FreekiN said:


> And India calls itself the 'worlds largest democracy.' They should be ashamed of themselves.



Ahm ahm wait gimme a second 

What does Hindustan Means???

Land of Hindus !!!!

How does it represent a " True secular democracy " where the very name of of the Country contradicts with the basics of Democracy ...

Regards:


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## EjazR

*Shopian MLA visits bereaved Sheeraza's family*

Srinagar, Dec 17 (PTI) Senior PDP leader and MLA from Shopian, Abdul Razak Zawoora today visited the bereaved family of Sheeraza (21), who was shot dead by an unidentified militant in her house on Tuesday.

Zawoora, on directions of party president Mehbooba Mufti, today visited Keller to convey solidarity with the bereaved family.

He expressed sympathies with the family and asked the government to identify the culprits and punish them, a party release said today.

Zawoora also met citizens of the area, who brought to his notice acute problems of ration, power and other essential items.

The MLA assured them that he will take up the matter with the administration for immediate redressal of grievances.


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## paritosh

Black blood said:


> Ahm ahm wait gimme a second
> 
> What does Hindustan Means???
> 
> Land of Hindus !!!!
> 
> How does it represent a " True secular democracy " where the very name of of the Country contradicts with the basics of Democracy ...
> 
> Regards:



the name is "*sovereign socialist secular democratic republic of India*"
with the level of comprehension shown..it'd be impossible to elaborate exactly what all that means.


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## unicorn148

Black blood said:


> Ahm ahm wait gimme a second
> 
> What does Hindustan Means???
> 
> Land of Hindus !!!!
> 
> How does it represent a " True secular democracy " where the very name of of the Country contradicts with the basics of Democracy ...
> 
> Regards:



ours is a true secular country because once its president was a muslim and present PM is a sikh . The place i live we celebrate any festival together may it ID or DIVALLI or RAMJAN


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## jeypore

Jana said:


> All of them want their land back which is occupied by India.
> 
> Simple as that.



Dear Jana if it was that simple, Great Islam Republic of Pakistan with Nuclear aresanal could have solved it 15 years ago. Isn't it surprising the game of victim is played on and on, yet there is not substance from the Pakistanie side. Let me repeat Substance, beside religious card. It's like in America if a black man gets hurt, it becomes a racism issue, Racisim Card, find sound correlation. 

I thought we Indian's where black, but yet you are sounding one!!!! Just my observation.

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## EjazR

Black blood said:


> Ahm ahm wait gimme a second
> 
> What does Hindustan Means???
> 
> Land of Hindus !!!!
> 
> How does it represent a " True secular democracy " where the very name of of the Country contradicts with the basics of Democracy ...
> 
> Regards:


Historically Hindus referred to the people living along the Indus river in the present day Pakistan all the way to the Ganges in the east. IT did not refer to the religious identification until the British came and started classifying and conducting religion based census. So even the Buddhists, Muslims and other natives in that area were referred to Hindus or Hindis even by the Arabs. So Hindustan refers to the geographical connotation not religious.

Even Dr. Zakir Naik has clarfied this and has said that if the word Hindu is taken in that geographical meaning, then he said that "I am a Hindu too".

Infact, Hindu scholars actually prefer to call themselves as Vendatists or sanatan dharmi.


And being secular or democracy is nto an on/off switch. It is a work in progress. India is a relatively young country compared to more established secular democracies like US/UK for example. Atleast we are moving towards that goal although we may not be there yet.

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## Halaku Khan

*Separatist elements threatened witnesses to implicate forces: CBI*

The Pioneer > Online Edition : >> Separatist elements threatened witnesses to implicate forces CBI

Navin Upadhyay | New Delhi

The CBI has found a number of evidence to establish that separatist elements tried to influence the witnesses to implicate the security personnel in the death of two Shopian women  Neelofar Jan and Asiya Jan. Separatist supporters and advocates threatened two crucial eyewitnesses that their houses and shops would be burnt and their family wiped out if they did not frame up the police and security men.

There is a great deal of discrepancies in the statement of the two alleged key witnesses who deposed before the Special Investigation Team (SIT) and Jan Commission about hearing the cries of the two women coming from a police vehicle and presence of men in uniform on the bridge over the river from where their bodies were recovered. 

But Ghulam Mohiuddin Lone and Abdul Rasheed Pampori told the CBI they lied under threat and inducement about the presence of security men at the river bridge. In addition, the statements given by the two before the SIT and Jan Commission are also full of contradictions.

*In his first statement, on June 6, 2009 recorded under Section 164-A J&K CrPC before the SIT, Ghulam Mohiuddin Lone stated that on May 29, 2009 after closing his shop at 8 pm, when he was heading home, he saw four uniformed persons standing before a blue colour police vehicle parked on the road after crossing the bridge. Lone said he and Pampori also heard the cries of women coming from the vehicle. 

However, in his second statement, recorded by the CBI on October 10, 2009 under Section 164-A J&K CrPC, he stated that about 5-10 days after the death of Neelofar Jan and Asiya Jan, Advocates Abdul Majid Mir, Mohd Yusuf

Bhat, Mushtaq Ahmad Gatoo, Altaf, Mubarak, Al Mohd Sheikh, neighbour of Shakeel Ahmad Ahanger and Zahoor Ahmad Ahanger, and Shakeels brother came to his residence and took him to the bridge and enquired him about the incident. Shakeel is the husband of Neelofar. 

After Lone told them he did not have any knowledge about the incident, they took him to Shakeels residence where Neelofars father Abdul Hai caught him by the neck and asked him to tell the truth. When Lone repeated he did not have any knowledge about the incident, advocate Abdul Majid beat him up and dragged him to another room. Lone told the CBI that Abdul Majid threatened him that if he did not give the statement that I have seen police vehicle near the bridge, they would burn my house and shop and would also kill my entire family. 

He added that Abdul Majid Mir also told him that if he gave a false statement of their choice, he will be offered a shop at the Shopian bus stand and handsome amount of money.*

Admitting that under intimidation, he gave false statements first to the Jan Commission and then before the CJM, Shopian, Lone told the CBI he neither saw any police vehicle near the bridge nor he heard any cries of women.

Similarly, the investigation has revealed that in his first statement under Section 164-A J&K CrPC on June 18, 2009, Pampori stated that on May 29, 2009 evening, when he along with Lone was going home, they saw a blue colour police vehicle, just after crossing the Rambiara Bridge facing towards Batpora, Shopian. He also stated that inside the vehicle he saw three policemen in uniform and heard cries of women asking for help from the vehicle. 

However, in his statement recorded by the CBI on October 27, 2009, he stated that he gave false statement under pressure from Lone and some police persons.

Pamporis statement was corroborated by Haseeb Mughal, SP, Kishtwar and advocates Syed Aijaz Hussain, Mohd. Mansoor Shah and Ghulam Ahmad Paul. They told the CBI that on June 9, 2009, when Lone gave his statement implicating the policemen, Pampori told Jan Commission he had seen nothing of the sort.

Similarly, Ghulam Mohiuddin Lones father Ahmad Lone corroborated his sons statement. The elder Lone told the CBI that his son was picked up by Abdul Majid, Mushtaq Ahmad Gatoo, Mohd Yusuf Bhat, Sheikh Mubarak, Mohd. Sheikh and Zahoor Ahmad Ahanger in the evening of June 9. 

When he Ghulam Mohiudin Lone returned home at about 3 am, he told me that he had been beaten, threatened and compelled to give false statements, Ahmad Lone told the CBI.

When Ahmad Lone visited Abdul Majid Mir the next day and protested against the beating, Mir told him that he was ready to keep him at his house for his safety. 

The mala fide conduct of the advocates  Abdul Majid Mir, Mushtaq Ahmad Gatoo and Mohd Yusuf Bhat  is also evident from the statement of one Hasina, wife of Azad Ahmad Tureay. Hasina told the CBI that these advocates visited her house and Mushtaq Ahmad Gatoo told her to give a statement that she and her husband saw policemen and a police vehicle standing on the bridge and heard screams of the women near the Rambiara nallah in the late evening of May 29, 2009. Hasina was offered jobs for her children, a house and Rs 20 lakh.

Hasina also told the CBI that Mushtaq Ahmad Gatoo disclosed they had offered Ghulam Mohiuddin Lone and Abdul Rashid Pampori new houses and remuneration for making such false statements.

The investigation has also concluded that a concerted effort was made by these advocates and some private persons to create false evidence for implicating the police/security forces in the death of the two ladies.


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## Halaku Khan

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE 
AHRC-STM-254-2009 
December 18, 2009

*A Statement by the Asian Human Rights Commission*

*PAKISTAN: Colonel Hamza of the ISI must be prosecuted for abduction, illegal detention and torture of young men from Pakistani Kashmir*

Three young men from the Pakistani part of Kashmir, abducted by an army Lieutenant Colonel and officials of Frontier Corp were released by their captives after the warning that they should not reveal that where they were held in captivity and tortured or the identities of those who had abducted them. The men were severely tortured and abused in Bala Hisar fort near Peshawar, the capital of the North West Frontier Province (NWFP), for 21 days. Please see AHRC's urgent appeal for their illegal arrest by the high official of notorious state intelligence agency, the ISI; 
PAKISTAN: An army colonel has had four men abducted and tortured due to a personal dispute, in Pakistan-held Kashmir

Three out of the four persons illegally arrested by the ISI colonel and Frontier Corp (FC), were released on the night of December 14 and thrown out on the road side near Peshawar city. Before their release Colonel Hamza of ISI and other officials of the FC abused them physically and threatened them not to tell anyone about their illegal detention in Bala Hisar otherwise they would face dire consequences. The police have also refused to entertain the complaint of the abducted men as a Lieutenant Colonel of the ISI is involved. 

Pakistani held Kashmir, generally known as Azad Jammu and Kasmir (AJK), has been a sensitive state for the Pakistani military because of its claim on Indian part of the Kashmir which is part of the unfinished agenda with the separation of Pakistan from India. The presence of state intelligence agencies, particularly, the ISI in Pakistani held Kashmir means that the people are not allowed to carry out their social and political activities without inference. There are only four major offices in the city of Muzaffarabad, the capital of AJK which has a population of 3.2 million, besides many other offices in the state. The police cannot interfere in the affairs of ISI as it claims that it is working in the national interests of the country in the presence of great potential threats from neighbouring India. 

The Inspector General of Police (IGP) was appointed by the government of Pakistan from the Pakistan police force so he is unfamiliar with the local situation and all affairs related to law and order situation are dependent on the ISI. 

In the case of abduction, arrest and torture of the four young men the whole affair was illegal and a direct threat to the independent governance of the state. Lieutenant Colonel Hamza was posted in the office of ISI Peshawar, capital of North West Frontier Province (NWFP), Pakistan, and he has no jurisdiction to operate in AJK. Neither do the officials of the Frontier Corp have jurisdiction there. According to the law they can operate only in the NWFP. However, being a powerful group they take advantage of their militaristic status to operate illegally anywhere they wish. The Colonel and officials of the FC illegally took the detainees to another province without the permission of an independent state which has its own laws and government. This case is another example and ample proof that the military forces consider themselves above the law. The local police are also powerless before the ISI and FC who undermine the law of the land. 

The Asian Human Rights Commission urges the government of Pakistan to initiate an inquiry into the matter of the abduction, illegal detention and torture of four young men from Azad Jammu Kashmir by Lieutenant Colonel Hamza of ISI, based in Peshawar, capital of NWFP, and by officials of the Frontier Corp. The military officials should be punished for violating the rights of the people recognized by the constitution and supposedly protected by the laws of Pakistan. The government should also protect the people of Pakistani Kashmir, the AJK, from the illegal acts of its notorious intelligence agency, the ISI and FC. The abducted and tortured young men should be paid compensation for their ordeal and a police case should also be filed against Lieutenant Colonel Hamza and the concerned officials of Frontier Corp.


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## TaimiKhan

Yet another one of the ************* stories.


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## vsdoc

Thanks Halaku. 

Now you know why Indians can't muster the energy or enthusiasm to even respond to Pakistani BS about the independent autonomous paradise that is Azad Kashmir, the lack of civil unrest and demonstrations, the tranquil peace, etc. etc. etc.

Pakistanis here who love their Kasmiri brethren so deeply should go out into the streets in protest about this. 

In solidarity, so will we Indians.

Truly shameful and barbaric behaviour of the *so called "liberators"* towards those they claim to have *"liberated."*

What could be the reason? 

The "liberated" having discovered that their "still captive" brethren are leading far better lives than them in a far more prosperous and peaceful and progressive environment ..... with freedom and democracy? 

Or the "liberated" never wanting or needing to be "liberated" in the first place, struggling to go back into the "Indian shackles" once more? 

I really wonder ......

Cheers, Doc

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## EjazR

Are there any english or urdu news websites based in Muzaffarabad or Gilgit-Baltistan area? There seems to be a lack of dailies/weeklies reporting from the local area. Or I may just have no knowledge about them. I would expect local papers to report more about their own area and day to day problems they face obviously rather than be focused on news across the border only.

Some online websites that are based out of Srinagar are
rising kashmir
greater kashmir
kashmir times

Srinagar times is a well known urdu paper as well.


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## PWFI

hahaha, i love indian prapoganda! hhahaha!
are you or


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## EjazR

^^^^The Asian Human Rights Commission is based in Hong Kong. So if you still consider it propaganda, it would be more accurate to call it Chinese propaganda.


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## Bullhead

FreekiN said:


> And India calls itself the 'worlds largest democracy.' They should be ashamed of themselves.



Yes we Indians are really ashamed of ourselves...because we are still one country dispite of multiple attempts...by our neighbours..... the whole world is investing India..and not in Pakistan...... India is one of the contributors to world bank...and Pakistan is one country rescued by world bank and was on verge of bankruptsy....we are ashamed that we are not ruled by dictators...for more than 70 percent of time since creation......we are ashamed that we have been able to succesfully beat every pakistani attempt to break India....and oh yes....India por...india bad India terrorist...India draconian...and India conspiracy....did I miss anything...

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## Icarus

unicorn148 said:


> ours is a true secular country because once its president was a muslim and present PM is a sikh . The place i live we celebrate any festival together may it ID or DIVALLI or RAMJAN



Buddy its not Ramjan, it's Ramzan in Urdu and Ramadan in Arabic and secondly, it's not a festival it's a month in the Islamic calender in which muslims fast.

True Democracy=3000 muslims burnt alive in Gujrat ? or 15th Century mosque destroyed by saffron terrorists ? Take your pick.............


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## Icarus

jeypore said:


> Dear Jana if it was that simple, Great Islam Republic of Pakistan with Nuclear aresanal could have solved it 15 years ago. Isn't it surprising the game of victim is played on and on, yet there is not substance from the Pakistanie side. Let me repeat Substance, beside religious card. It's like in America if a black man gets hurt, it becomes a racism issue, Racisim Card, find sound correlation.
> 
> I thought we Indian's where black, but yet you are sounding one!!!! Just my observation.



Ok then, lets play other than the religious card..........................how does the geographical card sound ????????????
Here I go, Pakistan also has a right to kashmir as we have a HUGE border linking Pakistan to Kashmir, whereas in India, had the town of Ghazipore not been given to India during partition, India would not have had any link with Kashmir................Kashmir is a part of India by 1 road...............


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## Aslan

Halaku Khan said:


> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> AHRC-STM-254-2009
> December 18, 2009
> 
> *A Statement by the Asian Human Rights Commission*
> 
> *PAKISTAN: Colonel Hamza of the ISI must be prosecuted for abduction, illegal detention and torture of young men from Pakistani Kashmir*
> 
> Three young men from the Pakistani part of Kashmir, abducted by an army Lieutenant Colonel and officials of Frontier Corp were released by their captives after the warning that they should not reveal that where they were held in captivity and tortured or the identities of those who had abducted them. The men were severely tortured and abused in Bala Hisar fort near Peshawar, the capital of the North West Frontier Province (NWFP), for 21 days. Please see AHRC's urgent appeal for their illegal arrest by the high official of notorious state intelligence agency, the ISI;
> PAKISTAN: An army colonel has had four men abducted and tortured due to a personal dispute, in Pakistan-held Kashmir
> 
> Three out of the four persons illegally arrested by the ISI colonel and Frontier Corp (FC), were released on the night of December 14 and thrown out on the road side near Peshawar city. Before their release Colonel Hamza of ISI and other officials of the FC abused them physically and threatened them not to tell anyone about their illegal detention in Bala Hisar otherwise they would face dire consequences. The police have also refused to entertain the complaint of the abducted men as a Lieutenant Colonel of the ISI is involved.
> 
> Pakistani held Kashmir, generally known as Azad Jammu and Kasmir (AJK), has been a sensitive state for the Pakistani military because of its claim on Indian part of the Kashmir which is part of the unfinished agenda with the separation of Pakistan from India. The presence of state intelligence agencies, particularly, the ISI in Pakistani held Kashmir means that the people are not allowed to carry out their social and political activities without inference. There are only four major offices in the city of Muzaffarabad, the capital of AJK which has a population of 3.2 million, besides many other offices in the state. The police cannot interfere in the affairs of ISI as it claims that it is working in the national interests of the country in the presence of great potential threats from neighbouring India.
> 
> The Inspector General of Police (IGP) was appointed by the government of Pakistan from the Pakistan police force so he is unfamiliar with the local situation and all affairs related to law and order situation are dependent on the ISI.
> 
> In the case of abduction, arrest and torture of the four young men the whole affair was illegal and a direct threat to the independent governance of the state. Lieutenant Colonel Hamza was posted in the office of ISI Peshawar, capital of North West Frontier Province (NWFP), Pakistan, and he has no jurisdiction to operate in AJK. Neither do the officials of the Frontier Corp have jurisdiction there. According to the law they can operate only in the NWFP. However, being a powerful group they take advantage of their militaristic status to operate illegally anywhere they wish. The Colonel and officials of the FC illegally took the detainees to another province without the permission of an independent state which has its own laws and government. This case is another example and ample proof that the military forces consider themselves above the law. The local police are also powerless before the ISI and FC who undermine the law of the land.
> 
> The Asian Human Rights Commission urges the government of Pakistan to initiate an inquiry into the matter of the abduction, illegal detention and torture of four young men from Azad Jammu Kashmir by Lieutenant Colonel Hamza of ISI, based in Peshawar, capital of NWFP, and by officials of the Frontier Corp. The military officials should be punished for violating the rights of the people recognized by the constitution and supposedly protected by the laws of Pakistan. The government should also protect the people of Pakistani Kashmir, the AJK, from the illegal acts of its notorious intelligence agency, the ISI and FC. The abducted and tortured young men should be paid compensation for their ordeal and a police case should also be filed against Lieutenant Colonel Hamza and the concerned officials of Frontier Corp.




Seriously before using such an article to flam against Pakistan and trying to prove that the whole of AK is not azad because one Colonel had a dispute with some guys and misuses his powers. This is common in any 3rd world country including India if a man with power is having a dispute with some 3rd party he sometimes tend to use his powers in a wrongful manner. But that does not implies the whole of Pakistan in relation to the AK. Though this practice is not right and i in no way shape or form condone it but that really is a weak argument to be basing yours on. The gov of Pakistan should take actions against these kind of individuals but you sir should look into your own self and see that your army in IOK is doing all of this on a state approved bases. And have all the GOI's blessings and not only that they have known to rape and kill for pleasures sake so what shall we call that.


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## Aslan

vsdoc said:


> Thanks Halaku.
> 
> Now you know why Indians can't muster the energy or enthusiasm to even respond to Pakistani BS about the independent autonomous paradise that is Azad Kashmir, the lack of civil unrest and demonstrations, the tranquil peace, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> Pakistanis here who love their Kasmiri brethren so deeply should go out into the streets in protest about this.
> 
> In solidarity, so will we Indians.
> 
> Truly shameful and barbaric behaviour of the *so called "liberators"* towards those they claim to have *"liberated."*
> 
> What could be the reason?
> 
> The "liberated" having discovered that their "still captive" brethren are leading far better lives than them in a far more prosperous and peaceful and progressive environment ..... with freedom and democracy?
> 
> Or the "liberated" never wanting or needing to be "liberated" in the first place, struggling to go back into the "Indian shackles" once more?
> 
> I really wonder ......
> 
> Cheers, Doc




you know one has to be a besharam of highest level to compete with you guys and i am sure that will still end up losing. You are taking an isolated incident and that also of abuse of power on individual bases and am sure that it will not go unnoticed. And yet you guys so vigorously defend when your own army is killing and raping women in IOk and then change the reports citing that the original one was fabricated because of public pressure.


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## Icarus

Bullhead said:


> Yes we Indians are really ashamed of ourselves...because we are still one country dispite of multiple attempts...by our neighbours..... the whole world is investing India..and not in Pakistan...... India is one of the contributors to world bank...and Pakistan is one country rescued by world bank and was on verge of bankruptsy....we are ashamed that we are not ruled by dictators...for more than 70 percent of time since creation......we are ashamed that we have been able to succesfully beat every pakistani attempt to break India....and oh yes....India por...india bad India terrorist...India draconian...and India conspiracy....did I miss anything...



Hey cow man, stop talkin Bull----, let me bring to you the real picture of "not so Incredible India"
1) Most number of malnourished in any one country.
2) Most number of people deprived of basic infrastructure in any one country.
3) On the US minorities rights watch list.
4) Largest number of underage sex workers.
5) Largest number of aids patients in any one country.
6) Often goes through "Purification" when minorities are killed in large numbers, recent occurrences in Gujrat and Orissa.
7) With a military that is charged with the most non-war crime, human rights abuses. 
8) Agricultural country yet retains the world's highest farmer suicide rate.
We may not be the perfect "Dream Nation" but neither are you.....
Now my Friend you can be ashamed............................

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## TaimiKhan

EjazR said:


> ^^^^The Asian Human Rights Commission is based in Hong Kong. So if you still consider it propaganda, it would be more accurate to call it Chinese propaganda.



Honk Kong is under Chinese control but the laws are not fully of China, there have been many liberties given to it after it was handed over by the British. Have you ever heard of things happening in Hong Kong which happen in China ?? Don't think so. 

Plus same AHRC published a report which was thankfully posted by one of the Indian members as it was maligning PA for using one baloch girl as a prostitute somewhere in Karachi, which had not one but many many factual inconsistencies. Even one Chinese member posted material from a blog rebutting the story with dozens of factual misrepresentation and lies. 

Its your free will what you guys wish to take as truth and what as a lie. Being Indian, definitely you guys will not say any of such news to be a lie as Indians on this forum love Pakistan bashing articles even if proven to be a bunch of lies. 

I don't get if, if AHRC can print such report, why we haven't seen any such thing from HRCP or in our media which are quiet vocal about such things no matter where it happens. If they can raise voices of foul play with captured TTP villains then how come they leave aside a Kashmiri person who went through such ordeal. 

I do hope you guys have read Pakistani media enough to know that we have no such restrictions and stories more brutal then such and from much more sensitive places come on air. 

Anyhow its like  no matter what i say.

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## grey boy 2

EjazR said:


> ^^^^The Asian Human Rights Commission is based in Hong Kong. So if you still consider it propaganda, it would be more accurate to call it Chinese propaganda.



The Human Rights Commision based in HongKong run by the same

foreign people as the British colony era, so it had nothing to do with

China.

*The much-praised solution is known as "one-country, two-systems" and promised to let local people administer the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) with a "high degree of autonomy" for 50 years. These promises were widely publicized and carved in stone or the next best thing. A Basic Law mini-constitution was promulgated by Beijing to cover the years from 1997 to 2047, during which the "capitalist system and way of life" would "remain unchanged" and the "socialist system and policies" would not be practiced (Article 5).*
China Elections and Governance | The Carter Center

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## vsdoc

What is a *Pakistani* colonel doing in *"Azad"* Kashmir in the first place?

Please stop the sham guys ..... people here from our side of the border were not born yesterday.

Lets call a spade a spade shall we?

*You want* Kashmir ..... *We have* Kashmir.

You tried taking Kashmir militarily ..... we still have Kashmir.

You tried inciting the people against us using the Islam card ..... we still have Kashmir.

You ran to the UN, then the US, then China ..... we still have Kashmir.

You sent your jihadi scum to shoot and bomb Indians ...... we still have Kashmir.

And we will keep Kashmir ...... in spite of your best efforts.

And what did you get for your pains these past 62 years?

You got 30&#37; of mainly uninhabited mountainous Kashmir.

..... You got Bangladesh.

..... You got Siachen.

..... You got Kargil.

..... And now you have SWAT.

..... And FATA/NWFP.

..... And Waziristan.

..... And terror perched on the outskirts of your biggest cities.

..... And of course you always had Balochistan.

Hope someone out there is keeping score.

Cheers, Doc

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## Aslan

vsdoc said:


> What is a *Pakistani* colonel doing in *"Azad"* Kashmir in the first place?
> 
> Please stop the sham guys ..... people here from our side of the border were not born yesterday.
> 
> Lets call a spade a spade shall we?
> 
> *You want* Kashmir ..... *We have* Kashmir.
> 
> You tried taking Kashmir militarily ..... we still have Kashmir.
> 
> You tried inciting the people against us using the Islam card ..... we still have Kashmir.
> 
> You ran to the UN, then the US, then China ..... we still have Kashmir.
> 
> You sent your jihadi scum to shoot and bomb Indians ...... we still have Kashmir.
> 
> And we will keep Kashmir ...... in spite of your best efforts.
> 
> And what did you get for your pains these past 62 years?
> 
> You got 30&#37; of mainly uninhabited mountainous Kashmir.
> 
> ..... You got Bangladesh.
> 
> ..... You got Siachen.
> 
> ..... You got Kargil.
> 
> ..... And now you have SWAT.
> 
> ..... And FATA/NWFP.
> 
> ..... And Waziristan.
> 
> ..... And terror perched on the outskirts of your biggest cities.
> 
> ..... And of course you always had Balochistan.
> 
> Hope someone out there is keeping score.
> 
> Cheers, Doc




And you forgot that your peace loving india was a main catalyst in all of the above equations and that is exporting terrorism to Pakistan. 
-Siachin invaded by india on false grounds.
-Kashmir never belonged to you guys and then why do you guys keep forgetting that it was your pundit that went running to UN.
-Waziristan, Baluchistan, and many other mainland areas that belong to Pakistan are non of your bloody business. Its a funny world we are facing issues that we had a hand in. Well you guys will have it coming to you sooner rather then latter. 
And don't give me the Bis BS about showing you the proof. Bangladesh is there for all to see and how your gov had a big hand to play in the internal affair of a sovereign country. 

And on a side note you are taking a very unfair advantage you and many others like you keep running your ***** about Pakistan and yet your own forums are full of scums that cant even tolerate the truth. So keep the tone low I would suggest or may be in your county they never though you how to respect the host.

And as far as the army presence in Kashmir is concerned, who do you think is responsible for security. Or are you that delusional.


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## vsdoc

khalidali said:


> And you forgot that your peace loving india was a main catalyst in all of the above equations and that is exporting terrorism to Pakistan.
> -Siachin invaded by india on false grounds.
> -Kashmir never belonged to you guys and then why do you guys keep forgetting that it was your pundit that went running to UN.
> -Waziristan, Baluchistan, and many other mainland areas that belong to Pakistan are non of your bloody business. Its a funny world we are facing issues that we had a hand in. Well you guys will have it coming to you sooner rather then latter.
> And don't give me the Bis BS about showing you the proof. Bangladesh is there for all to see and how your gov had a big hand to play in the internal affair of a sovereign country.
> 
> And on a side note you are taking a very unfair advantage you and many others like you keep running your ***** about Pakistan and yet your own forums are full of scums that cant even tolerate the truth. So keep the tone low I would suggest or may be in your county they never though you how to respect the host.
> 
> And as far as the army presence in Kashmir is concerned, who do you think is responsible for security. Or are you that delusional.



Khalid saab don't get excited. 

As I've said before, there is nothing that Pakistan can do to India, which India cannot rain down on Pakistan a hundredfold.

Newton's Law (forget which one) - every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

In real polity, however, the "equal" part of the equation often goes for a toss.

As for your last statement, no arguments there. You have taken a part of our land by force, and the only way you will hold that land is by force.

I was merely pointing out the *SHAM* of then calling it *Azad* Kashmir in the first place ..... the topic of discussion here, and nothing to do with "disrespecting the host" (is that all you can resort to in a debate?).

Cheers, Doc


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## Aslan

vsdoc said:


> Khalid saab don't get excited.
> 
> As I've said before, there is nothing that Pakistan can do to India, which India cannot rain down on Pakistan a hundredfold.
> 
> Newton's Law (forget which one) - every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
> 
> In real polity, however, the "equal" part of the equation often goes for a toss.
> 
> As for your last statement, no arguments there. You have taken a part of our land by force, and the only way you will hold that land is by force.
> 
> I was merely pointing out the *SHAM* of then calling it *Azad* Kashmir in the first place ..... the topic of discussion here, and nothing to do with "disrespecting the host" (is that all you can resort to in a debate?).
> 
> Cheers, Doc




Well I pointed out a tone of statement that is there for all to see! 
How can you call Kashmir yours when we from day one have said let the people decide and lets see, the ball has always been in your court and you guys have always decided to play blame games on it. As for the rest of your arguments about Pakistan doing stuff in your country you didnt answer my points. 
Well I am not a military personnel some other member will be able to answer the question better but I am sure that the indians to Pakistani military ration will tilt a lot in your favor as of having more boots on ground. Now I have never heard of a country having to deploy so much military within its state. Yes your land indeed.


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## vsdoc

khalidali said:


> How can you call Kashmir yours when we from day one have said let the people decide and lets see, the ball has always been in your court and you guys have always decided to play blame games on it.



We call Kashmir ours because at the time of Partition it was ceded to us and we have legal documentation to prove it.

Just as you claim that Balochistan was ceded to you.

So if we let you have Balochistan, in spite of serious resistance by the local population (a la the Kashmiri muslims as per your claim), which continues to this day, why finger Kashmir? 

Do you see us interfering in Balochistan?

Then *who are you* to tell us to let the people, *our* people, decide anything? We are a sovereign nation, and kashmir is a state of ours, and kashmiris our citizens. You may please mind your business and look to your own country and your own people.

Did we demand that you let the Balochis decide whether they wanted to be part of Pakistan? 

Do you even realise how absurd this line of thought sounds?

Cheers, Doc


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## Aslan

vsdoc said:


> We call Kashmir ours because at the time of Partition it was ceded to us and we have legal documentation to prove it.
> 
> Just as you claim that Balochistan was ceded to you.
> 
> So if we let you have Balochistan, in spite of serious resistance by the local population (a la the Kashmiri muslims as per your claim), why finger Kashmir?
> 
> Who are you to tell us to let the people, *our* people, decide anything? We are a sovereign nation, and kashmir is a state of ours, and kashmiris our citizens.
> 
> Did we demand that you let the Balochis decide whether they wanted to be part of Pakistan?
> 
> Do you even realise how absurd this line of thought sounds?
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Then I guess as of the originally plan we should lay our claim to Hyderabad and many other places. Dude we are not discussing the main land territory we are talking about Kashmir that is a disputed territory now if you fail to believe that that is your problem. The reality is that it belongs to Pakistan. There was a state that is in india now that joined Pakistan I think it was called Junagadh, we have to documents to prove that. So stop fooling your self and Baluchistan is not your problem so stop tooling. And now as of Kashmir you didn't answer my question that why do you have to deploy so much army there. What do yo have to say about the human rights abuses there. Or you don't see them at all.


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## apophenia

@Halaku Khan
Holy Cow: Yet another school AHRC textbook controversy.

@vsdoc

who cares about keeping scores. Lets eat some beef, so no beef remains btw Pakistan and India.


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## vsdoc

khalidali said:


> Then I guess as of the originally plan we should lay our claim to Hyderabad and many other places. Dude we are not discussing the main land territory we are talking about Kashmir that is a disputed territory now if you fail to believe that that is your problem.



Dude that is EXACTLY the issue and where the absurdity stems from! Tere mere kahne se land does not get disputed. 

If you want to take THAT as the reference point for labeling a piece of land disputed territory, HELL, *the whole of PAKISTAN is disputed territory cause India laid claim to it and did not want to let it go!*

Do you see the absurdity of the argument?



> So stop fooling your self and Baluchistan is not your problem so stop tooling.



Yes, we are mature enough to give you leeway on Balochistan. But India's patience is running thin on Kashmir, and Balochistan will sooner rather than later be dragged alongside by us. Two can play the same game my friend ..... and history proves that India is better than you at playing these games.



> And now as of Kashmir you didn't answer my question that why do you have to deploy so much army there.



The answer is obvious my friend. To keep our friendly neighbours from getting frisky ..... which they have exhibited an irritating cyclical preponderence to.

Also, we have a vermin problem in Kashmir ..... so the IA is there for pest control. 

Cheers, Doc


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## FreekiN

Kakgeta said:


> Hey cow man, stop talkin Bull----, let me bring to you the real picture of "not so Incredible India"
> 1) Most number of malnourished in any one country.
> 2) Most number of people deprived of basic infrastructure in any one country.
> 3) On the US minorities rights watch list.
> 4) Largest number of underage sex workers.
> 5) Largest number of aids patients in any one country.
> 6) Often goes through "Purification" when minorities are killed in large numbers, recent occurrences in Gujrat and Orissa.
> 7) With a military that is charged with the most non-war crime, human rights abuses.
> 8) Agricultural country yet retains the world's highest farmer suicide rate.
> We may not be the perfect "Dream Nation" but neither are you.....
> Now my Friend you can be ashamed............................



Bullman, one of the largest contributers to the World Bank, yet all of this? Yeah, I understand your shame.

And also, the World Bank did not save Pakistan. Reforms and changes did by Musharraf, the 'dictator.'

Eighty-nine separatist movement, 5 of them large and vast.

Indian's just cant accept reality that Kashmir does not want to be apart of India and never will accept itself as a part of India. And its not just about Kashmiri's, its about the others too, Khalistanis which I hear more about and more, etc.

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## croptikal

FreekiN said:


> Indian's just cant accept reality that Kashmir does not want to be apart of India and never will accept itself as a part of India.



No, its a known thing. Its well acknowledged in media and public debates in India. But the trend in Kashmir is growing assimilation with India. In about a decade, Kashmiris will be as much Indians(in terms of jingoism) as we are today. You know who are the biggest helpers of IA in Kashmir in defeating terrorism? Its the common Kashmiris. Soon Kashmir will be demilitarised and the policing duties will be given to locals, in about a decade or two. 



FreekiN said:


> And its not just about Kashmiri's, its about the others too, Khalistanis which I hear more about and more, etc.



No, Khalistan movement is dead. It was never mass supported. And today, it is more dead than ever with a sikh PM at the helm of affairs.


PS: Defeating secessionist movements is not easy. You found out that in East Pakistan. Yet, India has had tremendous success in quelling such movements. With the growing economy, backwardness will be eliminated and such movements defeated. With growing unstability and poverty, more movements will come up.

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## Icarus

croptikal said:


> No, its a known thing. Its well acknowledged in media and public debates in India. But the trend in Kashmir is growing assimilation with India. In about a decade, Kashmiris will be as much Indians(in terms of jingoism) as we are today. You know who are the biggest helpers of IA in Kashmir in defeating terrorism? Its the common Kashmiris. Soon Kashmir will be demilitarised and the policing duties will be given to locals, in about a decade or two.
> 
> 
> 
> No, Khalistan movement is dead. It was never mass supported. And today, it is more dead than ever with a sikh PM at the helm of affairs.
> 
> 
> PS: *Defeating secessionist movements is not easy. You found out that in East Pakistan.* Yet, India has had tremendous success in quelling such movements. With the growing economy, backwardness will be eliminated and such movements defeated. With growing unstability and poverty, more movements will come up.



Buddy, the movement in the East was never a secessionist, it was just transformed into one by Indian media and R&AW(the bastards, they took the coolest name).
Lolx


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## croptikal

Kakgeta said:


> Buddy, the movement in the East was never a secessionist, it was just transformed into one by Indian media and R&AW(the bastards, they took the coolest name).
> Lolx



Buddy, without outside support no secessionist movement can survive. Many such movements in India also of support from outside. Its all fair in the game...


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## FreekiN

croptikal said:


> No, its a known thing. Its well acknowledged *in media* and public debates in India. But the trend in Kashmir is growing assimilation with India. In about a decade, Kashmiris will be as much Indians(in terms of jingoism) as we are today. You know who are the biggest helpers of IA in Kashmir in defeating terrorism? Its the common Kashmiris. Soon Kashmir will be demilitarised and the policing duties will be given to locals, in about a decade or two.
> 
> 
> 
> No, Khalistan movement is *dead*. It was never mass supported. And today, it is more dead than ever with a sikh PM at the helm of affairs.
> 
> 
> PS: Defeating secessionist movements is not easy. You found out that in East Pakistan. Yet, India has had tremendous success in quelling such movements. With the growing economy, backwardness will be eliminated and such movements defeated. With growing unstability and poverty, more movements will come up.



Well, the media is having trouble acknowledging this due to movies like 'Fanaa' and 'Mission Kashmir.'

I wouldn't say 'dead' because memories don't die. In my high school we have a wall full of flags and one of them happen to be a Khalistan flag.


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## Iggy

FreekiN said:


> Well, the media is having trouble acknowledging this due to movies like 'Fanaa' and 'Mission Kashmir.'
> 
> I wouldn't say 'dead' because memories don't die. In my high school we have a wall full of flags and one of them happen to be a Khalistan flag.



Do you know what Khalistan movement is??I think you are mixing it with Kasmiri sepretist movement


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## croptikal

FreekiN said:


> Well, the media is having trouble acknowledging this due to movies like 'Fanaa' and 'Mission Kashmir.'
> 
> I wouldn't say 'dead' because memories don't die. In my high school we have a wall full of flags and one of them happen to be a Khalistan flag.



No. Indian movies do not impact media's workings. Maybe you imagine indian cinema as very powerful within India, but that is not true. There are many movies justifying terrorism as well. Kurbaan was a recent release which was from a terrorist's angle.

Khalistan movement is dead because people of punjab do not support it. Punjabis are actively taking part in nation building in India at all levels in all fields. Sure, others may want Khalistan to revive, but that does not make a difference on the ground.

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## FreekiN

seiko said:


> Do you know what Khalistan movement is??I think you are mixing it with Kasmiri sepretist movement



Yeah, I know what it is I was just responding to croptikals comment.


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## Valiant_Soul

Kakgeta said:


> What proof did India have of Pakistan's involvement in..................................let's say.......................... Mumbai Attacks ?



This point that you raised has been addressed in this thread *here.* In the meantime, do also watch this video about who some Pakistani intellectuals think is "playing dirty" and also how it is quite obvious for Indians to suspect:


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## Hulk

Thx for the video man.


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## Icarus

I'm not really impressed, even your lone living perpetrator, Ajmal Kasab has now denied the charge he was accused of, the story of the attacks has many loopholes, such as how can a few 18 to 22 year olds hold India's financial capital hostage for four days with only 3000 bullets(I'm being generous as one man can carry four AK-47, clips but since they were wearing bags i gave them, 10).
Thats just 200 seconds of fire power ! You tell me they took the whole of Mumbai hostage for four days AND kill 170 people with only 200 seconds of firepower ? Thats quite a feat especially when you are firing indiscriminately.................... 
Think over it.......................
Off topic : WE ARE VEERING OFF TOPIC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Valiant_Soul

If a person decides to blind himself with his belief, even God cannot make him see what is obvious and true. Please give some consideration, that the other side has some brain to see through all these issues. Do watch the video here and in that thread carefully.


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

Oh really .....*than why he is holding an Indian passport*......dont believe on this Guy called Mr. Geelani......he is a political LIAR...

perhaps it is democratic system that this Guy has physical existence till date....if he wud be in Commy Regime or a "Caudillo Regime"...he must be evaporated the day he took birth.....

this guy thinks he is too "smart"........Mods now you can close this thread....

our indian and pakistani friends neednot to discuss on this junk called Mr. Geelani......

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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

Developereo said:


> The people of Azad Kashmir are not clamoring for a plebiscite. The people held hostage in IOK are.
> 
> 
> 
> One billion Chinese are laughing with me.
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/39650-gotta-love-chinese.html
> 
> Guess who they are laughing at!



One billion chinese will stop laughing  once there is Plebiscite in Tibet..isnt..


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## grey boy 2

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> One billion chinese will stop laughing  once there is Plebiscite in Tibet..isnt..




Please at least be educated enough to know the difference between a

disputed Kashmir and tibet which reconized by the whole world as

part of China, so why should there be a plebiscite for tibet ?

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## Icarus

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> Oh really .....*than why he is holding an Indian passport*......dont believe on this Guy called Mr. Geelani......he is a political LIAR...
> 
> perhaps it is democratic system that this Guy has physical existence till date....if he wud be in Commy Regime or a "Caudillo Regime"...he must be evaporated the day he took birth.....
> 
> this guy thinks he is too "smart"........Mods now you can close this thread....
> 
> our indian and pakistani friends neednot to discuss on this junk called Mr. Geelani......



*HE HOLDS AN INDIAN PASSPORT BECAUSE HIS AREA IS UNDER INDIAN CONTROL*


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## Icarus

Et que connaîtriez-vous l'Inde et le Pakistan ?


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## pmano

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No, it is an Indo-Pak failure.
> 
> Both parties to the dispute, India and Pakistan, and the international community after all agreed on the principle of resolving the dispute - a plebiscite held under the UN to allow the Kashmiris to choose between the two nations.
> 
> It was nitpicking over trivial issues and the lack of political will (and a hard-line Indian position and set of opinions that sees kashmiris choosing Pakistan in such a plebiscite) that has not allowed for that solution to be implemented.
> 
> The British have no blame in India and Pakistan not coming to an agreement on holding a plebiscite in J&K.



British gave them(pakistanis) the pakistan so how can this dude blame british..


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## pmano

FreekiN said:


> That map makes China's part of Kashmir look enormous. Anyways it was decided before the partition that Muslim-majority states would become Pakistan and seeing Kashmir is Muslim majority...
> 
> Anyways if India does not want to give Kashmir up for Pakistan's demands then how about do it for democracy? Put up a fair vote as the 'worlds largest democracy' should do. But they don't. Why dont they?
> 
> Fear.



What fear lady..we dont have to fear in our own land..kashmir is an internal problem of india..keep off from it
@topic Yes there are 30 lac people in kashmir who do not want to ramain India...But a billion of India follow the Indian constitution and according to it Kashmir is an indian teritory...Majority wins in a democracy ..those 30 lac kashmiries are traitors..and a problem or "Pain in the a$$" resulted out of soft gandhi politics....Its high time india should adopt chinese model of tibet..and I would be first one to settle down in middle of Srinagar..this is the only way to teach the likes of geelani a lesson


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## pmano

vsdoc said:


> There is a simple solution to Gilani and those like him.
> 
> Escort them to the border and throw them across (circus-type human catapaults come to mind).
> 
> If you are Pakistani, then you belong in Pakistan.
> 
> Stay out of India.
> 
> Period.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Cheers man....I differ on certain aspects...and my solution is that if Geelani wants to live in pakistan and kashmir all at the same time...give him some money to buy a ticket of srinagar muzzafarabad bus....poor fella is penniless ...


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## pmano

vsdoc said:


> I agree. Pakistan, unlike India, has taken the moral high ground .... kashmir for kashmiris.
> 
> India is very clear .... Kashmir is one of our many states.
> 
> Always was, always has been, is, and always will be.
> 
> There is no dispute as far as we are concerned .... only pakistani origin terrorism and insurgency and unrest and violence.
> 
> Which we know how to tackle. Till Pakistan gives up .... or is made to give up .... or has to give up.
> 
> Cheers, Doc




Dud please dont ask them to leave kashmir...because what I like about pakistanis in general is that they are more concerned about few lac kashmiris and palestinien people rather than taking care of there 180 million fella citizens..
they follow this stupid thing called pan islamic stuff...let them......
Because as an typical indian I wont like pakistan to prosper..but on nuetral ground I would advise them to come out of it as that would be great for the future of Pakistan. 

Regards


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## FreekiN

pmano said:


> What fear lady..we dont have to fear in our own land..kashmir is an internal problem of india..keep off from it
> @topic Yes there are 30 lac people in kashmir who do not want to ramain India...But a billion of India follow the Indian constitution and according to it Kashmir is an indian teritory...Majority wins in a democracy ..those 30 lac kashmiries are traitors..and a problem or "Pain in the a$$" resulted out of soft gandhi politics....Its high time india should adopt chinese model of tibet..and I would be first one to settle down in middle of Srinagar..this is the only way to teach the likes of geelani a lesson



That vote wouldn't be done in India. It would be done in Kashmir, for the PEOPLE who are such a 'pain in the a$$' because they don't want to be oppressed by Hindu's. 

Really, it wouldn't make any sense to put up a vote in India concerning people who don't want anything to do with them.


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## FreekiN

pmano said:


> Dud please dont ask them to leave kashmir...because what I like about pakistanis in general is that they are more concerned about few lac kashmiris and palestinien people rather than taking care of there 180 million fella citizens..
> they follow this stupid thing called pan islamic stuff...let them......
> Because as an typical indian I wont like pakistan to prosper..but on nuetral ground I would advise them to come out of it as that would be great for the future of Pakistan.
> 
> Regards



You sir, have no idea what your talking about. Pakistan can't prosper if India has control over its water and electricity and regularly cuts off river flow. Pakistan can't prosper if India has military control over it. It's really India who should be worried about themselves and their overpopulated country.

And stupid 'pan Islamic stuff'? Please do us all a favor...

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## Hulk

FreekiN said:


> That vote wouldn't be done in India. It would be done in Kashmir, for the PEOPLE who are such a 'pain in the a$$' because they don't want to be oppressed by Hindu's.
> 
> Really, it wouldn't make any sense to put up a vote in India concerning people who don't want anything to do with them.



As I suggested earlier, if the separatist want to test, they can start by winning assembly elections and then shout on top of the voice that they want freedom. It will be good idea to test the percentage of people with them. Rallies cannot be show of strength, as people come for rallies for free food also.


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## Icarus

pmano said:


> What fear lady..we dont have to fear in our own land..kashmir is an internal problem of india..keep off from it
> @topic Yes there are 30 lac people in kashmir who do not want to ramain India...But a billion of India follow the Indian constitution and according to it Kashmir is an indian teritory...Majority wins in a democracy ..those 30 lac kashmiries are traitors..and a problem or "Pain in the a$$" resulted out of soft gandhi politics....Its high time india should adopt chinese model of tibet..and I would be first one to settle down in middle of Srinagar..this is the only way to teach the likes of geelani a lesson



So you agree that the issue of Kashmir is not one of Indian sovereignty but simply of land ?


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## Icarus

pmano said:


> Dud please dont ask them to leave kashmir...because what I like about pakistanis in general is that they are more concerned about few lac kashmiris and palestinien people rather than taking care of there 180 million fella citizens..
> they follow this stupid thing called pan islamic stuff...let them......
> *Because as an typical indian I wont like pakistan to prosper*..but on nuetral ground I would advise them to come out of it as *that would be great for the future of Pakistan.*
> 
> Regards



Firstly, let me say that you and your brethren are doing quite a good job on the first highlighted point.
Secondly, an Indian would be the last person who's advice i would consider for Pakistan's "Prosperity and Future"

We have come too far to abandon the Kashmir cause now, we have fought two wars over Kashmir and abandoning it would be a disgrace to all who died and sacrificed for it. 

And your "Tibet" solution won't work, remember that according to the UN Kashmir is still "disputed". Save your idea for 70 or so years later.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*WB delays funding for IHK project​*
* Bank links release of money to submission of declaration of disputed status of territory

By Iftikhar Gilani

NEW DELHI: The World Bank (WB) has stalled its funding for a major project it had cleared in May last year for Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) on the ground that it is located in a disputed territory and requires a declaration to that effect for the funds to be released.

*Linking the project with the disputed status of the territory, the WB has slapped a &#8220;disclaimer clause&#8221; for releasing funds for the $120 million project. The clause requires a commitment from the IHK government that the funding would not be considered a recognition or endorsement of India&#8217;s territorial claim on the disputed region.*

The IHK government has been requesting Indian Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee to settle the issue to get the funds for its Participatory Watershed Management Project delinked from the disclaimer clause.

IHK Chief Minister Omar Abdullah wrote to the finance minister in June, informing him about how the WB had backed out of its commitment after the project&#8217;s appraisal had been drawn up and dates for negotiating aid terms had been proposed.

He followed it up by sending Forest Minister Mian Altaf Ahmad to Mukherjee last Friday, to get the &#8220;disclaimer clause&#8221; dropped.

The IHK government&#8217;s case is that no such clause was insisted upon by the WB in the past when it funded two other watershed projects, one worth Rs 900 million and another worth Rs 1,980 million.

A similar dispute had recently prevented funding for a project by the Asian Development Bank (ADB) in Arunachal Pradesh, when the Chinese representatives objected to financing the project in what they claimed to be a disputed territory.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

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## Icarus

FreekiN said:


> You sir, have no idea what your talking about. Pakistan can't prosper if India has control over its water and electricity and regularly cuts off river flow. Pakistan can't prosper if India has military control over it. It's really India who should be worried about themselves and their overpopulated country.
> 
> *And stupid 'pan Islamic stuff'? Please do us all a favor...*



Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned !!!!!!!!

You are a woman right ?????


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## RobbieS

Needless disruption for much needed developmental projects in J&K.


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## New Shivaji

*WB delays funding for IHK project*

Give me some neutral source of this information to even consider this cheap peace of pakistani propaganda.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

New Shivaji said:


> *WB delays funding for IHK project*
> 
> Give me some neutral source of this information to even consider this cheap peace of pakistani propaganda.



The Pakistani press has not yet sunk to the lows of anti-India propaganda that the Indian media has, with its anti-Pakistan propaganda, lies and distortions intended to malign Pakistan and brainwash Indians, as seen recently.

*Row over World Bank's Kashmir clause​*
TNN 22 December 2009, 12:03pm 

NEW DELHI: Finance minister Pranab Mukherjee has assured a delegation of J&K MPs that the government will oppose a disclaimer clause put up by World Bank in return for a Rs 740 crore loan it has sanctioned for a watershed project in the state. The Bank has asked the state government to give an undertaking that the loan would not be treated as a certificate that the "disputed territory" was an integral part of India. 

This is not the first time an international agency has put up conditions to its sanctioned loan, Mukherjee told the delegation. He assured the state government that Centre will sort out the matter immediately, J&K forest minister Altaf Mian told TOI. 

A six-member delegation led by the J&K forest minister met Mukherjee at his North Block office on Thursday and told him the Bank had stopped disbursement of a sanctioned loan and raised fresh conditions. 

India had encountered similar difficulties earlier this year when China had objected to an Asian Development Bank loan in Arunachal Pradesh seeking to defer the loan as it was a "disputed territory". 

However, Altaf Mian said World Bank had funded two projects in J&K, in 1991 and 1999. Though the loan component was much smaller, the multilateral agency had never sought any disclaimer. 

No one from the Department of Economic Affairs in the finance ministry, which is dealing with the issue, was ready to speak on the matter. While finance secretary was out of town, the ministry spokesperson said he would get back. 

The state government was not even aware of the fresh conditions till a follow up with the Union environment and forest ministry revealed that a demand had been raised by World Bank seeking the disclaimer. 

"We have brought this to the FM's notice and he has assured that in shortest time, the Centre will sort this out with the Bank," Mian said. 

Row over World Bank's Kashmir clause - India - The Times of India

=======

I don't see why the condition should be opposed - the UNSC resolutions, and the international community, India and Pakistan's acceptance of them is clear and unamabiguous.

I would argue that even if the 'disclaimer' is taken out, the intent has been made clear by the international body - J&K is disputed territory, and not an 'integral part of India'.

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## garibnawaz

Its delayed not rejected.

Whats the fuss is about?

GB


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

RobbieS said:


> Needless disruption for much needed developmental projects in J&K.


 
The disruption would be from the Indian side - the WB is willing to disburse the funds provided the GoI clarify that which is self evident to all but those with their heads stuck up their posteriors.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*WB defends 'Disclaimer clause' for project in J and K*​
New Delhi, Dec 21 (PTI) Ignoring objections by the Jammu and Kashmir government, the World Bank today defended as "routine" its controversial "disclaimer" that funding for a project in the "disputed" border state will not be seen as recognition of India's territorial claim on it.

"The World Bank is an apolitical international development organisation. It cannot take a position on border disputes. It is therefore required to add a disclaimer clause for all projects that seek to uplift the lives of poor people in areas disputed by sovereign states," a World Bank spokesperson said in a statement here.

The disclaimer clause states "By supporting the project, the World Bank does not intend to make any judgement on the legal or other status of the territories concerned or to prejudice the final determination of the parties' claims."

"The activation of this clause is routine.

fullstory


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## PAFAce

garibnawaz said:


> Its delayed not rejected.
> 
> Whats the fuss is about?
> 
> GB


Like AM said above, it's more the intent and the message than the actual delay. The World very much considers Kashmir disputed territory, despite India's ever-increasing international propaganda efforts, that much has been made clear.


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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *WB defends 'Disclaimer clause' for project in J and K*​
> New Delhi, Dec 21 (PTI) Ignoring objections by the Jammu and Kashmir government, the World Bank today defended as "routine" its controversial "disclaimer" that funding for a project in the "disputed" border state will not be seen as recognition of India's territorial claim on it.
> 
> "*The World Bank is an apolitical international development organisation. It cannot take a position on border disputes*. It is therefore required to add a disclaimer clause for all projects that seek to uplift the lives of poor people in areas disputed by sovereign states," a World Bank spokesperson said in a statement here.
> 
> The disclaimer clause states "*By supporting the project, the World Bank does not intend to make any judgement on the legal or other status of the territories concerned or to prejudice the final determination of the parties' claims.*"
> 
> "The activation of this clause is routine.
> 
> fullstory



This is really shameful on the part of WB. The Indian diplomatic corps will get out in full force to check any untoward developments. We shall see a reversal or atleast toning down of language in the 'clause' in the days to come. That being said, read the boldfaced parts. They are contradictory!

If the WB is indeed an apolitical organization (which we all know it isnt) why make a hue and cry over political issues? They dont need to meddle in internal affairs of a country. 

India has already maintained that J&K is an integral part of Indian Union! Residents of the state enjoy all the rights accorded to them by the constitution of India and they also exercise the right to vote in the Indian General Elections, the mark of citizenship! Show me people from other disputed territories who have the right to vote and are considered citizens!

Disputed status is when an area is under military occupation by a power. J&K is a state of India with a full political apparatus in place and the people enjoy the same rights as rest of the Indians elsewhere as provided by the Indian Constitution.

Oh, btw, EU considers J&K an integral part of India!

ps: With India's growing economic, military and political clout, it remains to be seen if such "apolitical" bodies can afford to antagonize the Indian diplomatic juggernaut! OTOH it might be a test whether India is up to the challenge!


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## Nemesis

and the world bank's opinion on the "disputed" nature of Kashmir matters why?

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Nemesis said:


> and the world bank's opinion on the "disputed" nature of Kashmir matters why?



It's the Indian government having a hissy fit over the 'disclaimer' - if the WB's opinion does not matter just accept the fnding with the disclaimer and move on.


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## garibnawaz

PAFAce said:


> Like AM said above, it's more the intent and the message than the actual delay. The World very much considers Kashmir disputed territory, despite India's ever-increasing international propaganda efforts, that much has been made clear.



The fact-finding mission of the European Union (EU) Tuesday met chairman of moderate faction of the separatist alliance Hurriyat Conference and chairman of pro-independence group Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) to understand the prevailing situation in the restive region. 
The five-member delegation, which is currently on a visit to India-controlled Kashmir, called on Mirwaiz Farooq Mirwaiz and Mohammed Yasin Malik in Srinagar, the summer capital of the region and held meetings with them. 
Mirwaiz appraised the delegation about the situation in the region and briefed them about the human rights scenario. He also told the delegation that EU should take steps to play a role in facilitating the composite dialogue between New Delhi and Islamabad. 
"The EU delegations have been coming to Kashmir for the past two decades. They support composite dialogue, and resolution of Kashmir issue is in the agenda of the EU Parliament," Mirwaiz said. 
Malik informed the delegation that people of Kashmir were committed to non-violent struggle for the resolution of the Kashmir issue. 
"I conveyed them last year at least 70 unarmed civilians were killed during peaceful protests and we stuck to the democratic peaceful principles. Now the international community including the EU was duty bound to respond to the peaceful aspirations of the people of Kashmir and take steps for the resolution of Kashmir issue," Malik said. 
The EU delegation is headed by Ambassador of Sweden to India Olof Lindgren. 

*"Kashmir is an integral and important part of India and we (EU)wants a peaceful resolution of the Kashmir issue through talks between India, Pakistan and Kashmiris," said Lindgren, while talking to the reporters.* 

The other members of the EU delegation included European Union Ambassador Daniele Smajda; Ambassador of Spain, Lon Dela Riva; Ambassador of Belgium, Jean M. Debouller and Second Secretary of Sweden, Oscar Schlyter. 

EU delegations keep on visiting Indian-controlled Kashmir and hold interactions with the local government, Indian army officials and separatists to understand the situation in the region.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90...51/6823006.html

http://in.news.yahoo.com/20/20091124/1416/tnl-j-k-integral-part-of-india-eu.html

Savvy?

GB


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## Hulk

I care less if WB want to play safe, will see how things unfold in future. I am sure GOI can get this sorted out.


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## garibnawaz

PAFAce said:


> despite India's ever-increasing international propaganda efforts



How many civil airports Pakistani administered Kashmir has?
Does Pakistani Kashmir have an international airport? How many?
Does Pakistani Kashmir have railway network? Please enlight us.

GB


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> This is really shameful on the part of WB. The Indian diplomatic corps will get out in full force to check any untoward developments. We shall see a reversal or atleast toning down of language in the 'clause' in the days to come. That being said, read the boldfaced parts. They are contradictory!
> 
> If the WB is indeed an apolitical organization (which we all know it isnt) why make a hue and cry over political issues? They dont need to meddle in internal affairs of a country.


Actually the shameful part is the GoI's position on violating its commitment to the UNSC resolutions and its promise to to the people of J&K to hold a plebsicite in which they choose between India and Pakistan.

The WB by including this disclamer is only pointing out something the UNSC passed multiple resolutions on and that India and Pakistan agreed to - that the territory is disputed.



> India has already maintained that J&K is an integral part of Indian Union!


Yes, yes we know - and by the same logic you would want to claim Texas and California. India 'maintaining' the moon is its proeprty does no make it so.



> Residents of the state enjoy all the rights accorded to them by the constitution of India and they also exercise the right to vote in the Indian General Elections, the mark of citizenship! Show me people from other disputed territories who have the right to vote and are considered citizens!
> 
> Disputed status is when an area is under military occupation by a power. J&K is a state of India with a full political apparatus in place and the people enjoy the same rights as rest of the Indians elsewhere as provided by the Indian Constitution.


It is disputed territory per the UNSC resolutions and Pakistan's claim to the territory endoresed by the UNSC resolutions and accepted by India by virtue of her acceptance of said UNSC resolutions. You could make J&K heaven on earth, that does not make it any less disputed. OH, and very few 'normal territories' have tens of thousands of residents massacred, tortured, raped and buried in mass graves by hundreds of thousands of Indian Occupation Forces.



> Oh, btw, EU considers J&K an integral part of India!


No it doesn't - the incident you refer to was a comment by an ambassador from the EU to the media on his way out of a meeting with a Kashmiri leader.

That does not equate to an 'official EU position' - that, so far, remains the resolutions adopted by the EU parliament that consider the territory disputed.
Texts adopted - Thursday, 24 May 2007 - Kashmir: present situation and future prospects - P6_TA(2007)0214



> ps: With India's growing economic, military and political clout, it remains to be seen if such "apolitical" bodies can afford to antagonize the Indian diplomatic juggernaut! OTOH it might be a test whether India is up to the challenge!



tsk tsk, that is all you are reduced to as Indians - 'India can lie, cheat, deceive etc. and its 'economic, military and political clout will let it get away with it'.

I suppose on the bright side that you are honest and accept, even if indirectly, that you have no legal or moral position to support the 'integral part of India' claim.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

garibnawaz said:


> Savvy?
> 
> GB


Typing like Johnny Depp speaks in a hit movie does not make you 'cool' like him, or your point any more valid - see my response to Gubbi on that claim.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

garibnawaz said:


> How many civil airports Pakistani administered Kashmir has?
> Does Pakistani Kashmir have an international airport? How many?
> Does Pakistani Kashmir have railway network? Please enlight us.
> 
> GB



*"There are various projects underway for which the international donor agencies and monetary institutions have contributed immensely. For instance in rural areas, ADB (Asian Development Bank) is playing an effective role to build back the infrastructure that was terribly ruined due to the deadly earth quake of 2005. Neelum Valley Road andHatian Boys College is being built by ADB under the aegis of Energy Efficiency investment program (EEIP). Likewise we have some educational and health projects and Hospitals for which the friendly countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Turkey, UK and other countries have contributed hugely. HUBCO is also setting up a multibillion Hydel power project at New Bong Escape Mirpure.
Similarly the Asian Development Bank, the World Bank, UNICEF and other international monetary institutions have greatly been involved in the socio-economic upliftment in the region."*


yada, yada, yada - now get back to topic.

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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Actually the shameful part is the GoI's position on violating its commitment to the UNSC resolutions and its promise to to the people of J&K to hold a plebsicite in which they choose between India and Pakistan.


What, no option for independence? No wonder. 
Personally if you ask me, I am for "to each his/her own". But for the big picture and as an Indian, Kashmir is too important strategically for India to give up its claim. Add to it the instrument of accession and the *prerequisites* needed for a plebiscite to take place.


> The WB by including this disclamer is only pointing out something the UNSC passed multiple resolutions on and that India and Pakistan agreed to - that the territory is disputed.


The legality of that disclaimer is up in the air, for an apolitical body should not interfere with politics!


> Yes, yes we know - and by the same logic you would want to claim Texas and California. India 'maintaining' the moon is its proeprty does no make it so.


If push comes to shove, it might be possible! If India buys a piece of real estate on the moon in the near future, then yes, we will claim that too, and make sure our interests are protected. You know India is one among only 6 countries which can claim a place on the Moon, we do have the technologies to make that possible.


> It is disputed territory per the UNSC resolutions and *Pakistan's claim to the territory endoresed by the UNSC resolutions and accepted by India by virtue of her acceptance of said UNSC resolutions.*


Implying things which aren't true? You should do better my friend.
The part about Indian occupation forces qualifies as a rant and I will leave it at that.


> No it doesn't - the incident you refer to was a comment by an ambassador from the EU to the media on his way out of a meeting with a Kashmiri leader.


Yet, the comment was made after talking to a Kashmiri leader. There was an intent behind that comment.


> That does not equate to an 'official EU position' - that, so far, remains the resolutions adopted by the EU parliament that consider the territory disputed.
> Texts adopted - Thursday, 24 May 2007 - Kashmir: present situation and future prospects - P6_TA(2007)0214


fair enough!


> tsk tsk, that is all you are reduced to as Indians - 'India can lie, cheat, deceive etc. and its 'economic, military and political clout will let it get away with it'.


You would have done the same thing if you were powerful. Why dont anyone makes noise about Taiwan's or Tibet's independence? B'coz China is powerful!


> I suppose on the bright side that you are honest and accept, even if indirectly, that you have no legal or moral position to support the 'integral part of India' claim.


There are no morals in politics or for that matter when it comes to National interests. However, comparatively, India does have a higher moral stand.
I shall refrain from commenting about the legal status for it will turn into yet another Kashmir thread. Lets keep it on the legality of WB clause and its implications.

What if India says to hell with it and finds other sources to fund development in J&K? Its not like we cant spare a few hundred millions.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> What, no option for independence? No wonder.
> Personally if you ask me, I am for "to each his/her own". But for the big picture and as an Indian, Kashmir is too important strategically for India to give up its claim. Add to it the instrument of accession and the *prerequisites* needed for a plebiscite to take place.


All of which have been discussed elsewhere and I'll leave it at that.


> The legality of that disclaimer is up in the air, for an apolitical body should not interfere with politics!


This is not politics - the WB is merely pointing out that which is self-evident. Just because Indians are in a state of denial does not mean everyone else has to as well.



> If push comes to shove, it might be possible! If India buys a piece of real estate on the moon in the near future, then yes, we will claim that too, and make sure our interests are protected. You know India is one among only 6 countries which can claim a place on the Moon, we do have the technologies to make that possible.


'IF' you buy it, as of now you have not, and J&K is disputed, and considered so by a majority of the world.


> Implying things which aren't true? You should do better my friend.
> The part about Indian occupation forces qualifies as a rant and I will leave it at that.


Not implying, STATING things which are true, and a nation that blatantly reneges on its commitment to hold a plebiscite that would allow the people of the region to determine their destiny is 'Occupying', and its forces enforcing its control are 'Occupation Forces'.


> Yet, the comment was made after talking to a Kashmiri leader. There was an intent behind that comment.


Intent or misspoke or whatever - it was not an official EU position as you accepted below, and only time will tell if that comment was one of 'intent' and the EU follows suite.


> You would have done the same thing if you were powerful. Why dont anyone makes noise about Taiwan's or Tibet's independence? B'coz China is powerful!


Taiwan and Tibet are not disputed between two other nations nor are there multiple resolutions in the UNSC endorsing that POV.



> What if India says to hell with it and finds other sources to fund development in J&K? Its not like we cant spare a few hundred millions.


By all means do so - it is your right to woo the kashmiri hearts and minds as you see fit, and have various local figures, political and otherwise, on Indian payroll as Indian agents.

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## Silent observer

DAWN
By Masood Haider 
Wednesday, 23 Dec, 2009 

*The World Bank has refused to accept occupied Kashmir as an integral part of India and has insisted on a disclaimer from the Jammu and Kashmir government that funding for a project will not be seen as recognition of Indias territorial claim on the state*.

The bank has put a disclaimer clause for bankrolling a key project in the disputed state which indicates that funding of projects in disputed areas should not be used to endorse territorial claims, said a news report here on Tuesday.

If you have a query on World Banks decision on J&K, ask Prabhu now. This has been communicated to New Delhi by the occupying state government which wants the World Bank-funded Rs740 crore Participatory Watershed Management Project to be completed.

Indian occupied Jammu and Kashmirs Forest Minister Mian Altaf Ahmad, along with MPs from the state met Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee recently in New Delhi to discuss the issue.

*The government of the occupied state wants New Delhi to settle issue with the World Bank, which has refused to fund more projects in the state, treating it as a disputed territory between India and Pakistan. Mr Ahmad said the World Bank had raised the disclaimer issue last year after assessment of the project which was then at the funding stage.*

He said if the centre pursued the matter; the bank could be convinced to give up the disclaimer condition. The World Bank was instrumental in committing India to allow the waters of the states three principal rivers  the Indus, the Jhelum and the Chenab  to flow unimpeded under the Indus Water Treaty of 1960.

Article XI of the treaty is quite emphatic that it will deal only with the water-sharing issue and its implementation will not acknowledge or waive any other rights other than those specified in the treaty. 

In other words, it will have nothing to do with the territorial dispute between the two parties.

In the troubled history of India-Pakistan relations, the Indus Water Treaty stands out as a major success for which the World Bank, the third signatory to the treaty, deserves great credit. As party to the treaty, the bank created an $895 million Indus Basin Development Fund to which India contributed some $174 million.

*This is the second time this year that India has had friction with a multilateral development agency over project funding in a state that has a border dispute.* 

*An Asian Development Bank (ADB) country loan to India had run into trouble because it included funding for a watershed development project in Arunachal Pradesh  a point that was objected to by the Chinese at the ADB meeting.* The World Bank had funded two projects in Jammu and Kashmir under the integrated Watershed Development Programme with Rs900 million from 1990 to 1999 and Rs1.98 billion from 1999 to 2005 without bringing up the disclaimer issue.

A team of the World Bank headed by Norman Piccioni had visited the occupied state from May 5 to May 12 last year to assess the feasibility of the Participatory Watershed Management Project.

The project is likely to cover 3,14,705 hectares for adopting integrated watershed management to reverse the degradation of the natural resource base and improve the livelihood of poor rural households in the project area.

The World Bank will finance 80 per cent of the project and the state government 17 per cent. Participatory communities will contribute 3 per cent.

If implemented, 1,74,250 households will be covered while 50,675 households will directly benefit from the project. 

Overall, it is expected to benefit over a million people and generate 4.5 million person-days of wage employment besides providing jobs to 2,000 people regularly for seven years.


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## RobbieS

Lets see what's the outcome of this disruption by WB. IMO, the WB will be forced to back off and pass the loan without any stupid demands for a disclaimer.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

excellent move by World Bank.

Kashmir is indeed disputed territory, and it shall be dealt with that way. We place strong emphasis on solving all outstanding issues.


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## ejaz007

Kashmir is a disputed teritory. Whats new about it. India itself took the matter to the UN.

Stop behaving like childs and grow up.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Nemesis said:


> and the world bank's opinion on the "disputed" nature of Kashmir matters why?




World Bank Group is an International Development Bank and very broadly are a wing of United Nations 


*Ten Things Worth Knowing About The World Bank in India*

1. India is one of our &#8216;founding fathers&#8217;.

India was among the 17 original participants of the 1944 Bretton Woods conference which conceived the idea of the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development (IBRD)&#8212;more commonly known today as the &#8220;World Bank&#8221;. In fact, it was the India delegation which first suggested the name IBRD. The Bank&#8217;s New Delhi office, established in 1957, is the oldest continuously functioning World Bank country office.


2. Our loans are a cheap source of financing.

India receives roughly half of its World Bank loans interest free. These are provided by the Bank&#8217;s International Development Association. This agency provides grants and &#8220;credits&#8221;, which are loans at zero interest, with a 0.75 percent finance charge. The remaining half of World Bank loans to India are provided by the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development, another World Bank agency which provides loans at low interest rates. Countries that borrow from the IBRD have more time to repay than if they borrowed from a commercial bank&#8212;15 to 20 years with a three-to-five-year grace period before the repayment of principal begins.


3. India is the largest recipient of our financial assistance.

India remains the Bank&#8217;s largest single borrower. Our lending to the country touched $2.9 billion in FY 2005 &#8211; more than double the amount lent a year earlier. The bulk of new lending has gone to much-needed infrastructure and human development projects.





rest of article available here (WB website)



India - Ten Things Worth Knowing About The World Bank in India

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## vsdoc

Kakgeta said:


> We have come too far to abandon the Kashmir cause now, we have fought two wars over Kashmir and abandoning it would be a disgrace to all who died and sacrificed for it.
> 
> And your "Tibet" solution won't work, remember that according to the UN Kashmir is still "disputed". Save your idea for 70 or so years later.



India recognises this stance of Pakistan ..... and India is cool with it ..... rather India has reconciled itself to having a perpetually hostile neighbour on its doorstep and is reacting to a situation not of its own choosing ..... but a stark reality nonetheless.

So India arms itself. So India locks down its borders. So India shuts shop as far as dialogue is concerned. So India looks within and continues to grow ..... slowly but steadily. So India engages with the world ..... increasingly as an equal. 

India will not budge on kashmir dear pakistani brothers and sisters.

As an Indian I will not allow it.

And I shall teach my children not to allow it. 

And they will teach their children.

We will work harder. We will generate greater wealth. We will pay a larger chunk of our earnings to our government too if need be. 

We will outarm you. We will outmaneuver you. We will outnegotiate you. We will outlobby you. We will outsmart you. We will outspend you. 

But we will keep Kashmir. 

You and your future generations have a choice. 

Give up Kashmir and join hands with us as friends.

Or continue on your present path.

Yes Kakgeta ..... our grandchildren (and their children) will get to see the results of your choice 70 years from now.

That I promise you. 

Cheers, Doc

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## Nemesis

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It's the Indian government having a hissy fit over the 'disclaimer' - if the WB's opinion does not matter just accept the fnding with the disclaimer and move on.




Hissy fit? I wasnt even aware of this "news" until you posted a thread on it. The GOI has more problems stemming from the Coperhagen summit, i doubt the WB opinion on Kashmir is causing anyone sleepless nights. 

We won't accept the disclaimer, we'll just reject the loan. It's not like we really need it.


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## FALCON_FALL_DOWN

FIRST THISNG IS THAT I HATE ARMY WHO IS DEPLOYED IN HEAVEN KASMIR 
with army jawans it is a must to teach the enemy a lesson. the
lessons are usually carried out by SPECAAL OPERATION GROUPS who are beyond the purview of Law or a simple enquiry. So needless of say that why we have witnessed a large scale disaappearances of Men in Kashmir, eliminated without trail often.

A HoD of Kashmir University , a close friend, was picked once by Army in Anantnag and released after three days, that too because he managed to arrange a meeting with a senior officer in Bahinal prison who accidentally hapened to listen to his request, and was subsequenlty released. .Normally, it is the angry Jawan in uniform who controls the street or an area and decides on the spot about the the person in sight. Rape is one such lesson.

I was once myself caught by Army jawans in Srinagar, it was cufew
time, and even after showing my I.card i was punished to perform Murga ( chicken ) and then made to run.. The 'run' word those days meant to shoot the runner from behind and label him as offender of curfew or a terrorist etc.

The men in uniform are supposed to be orderly, a friend in kashmir
told me once, while he agreed that militants usually come from weired backgrounds and can do many bad things,.But, unfortunately Army record in kahmir is very very poor in this regard,

Those who use the media filter to try to understand what is happening
in Kashmir should realize they're looking at a shadow play. A curtain
lies between events and us. What is played out on the screen depends on who manipulates the sources of light.

Last summer, the Valley was overwhelmed by several months of
unprecedented non-violent public protest. It was triggered by the
complicated Amarnath land issue, but on the streets the people were
saying "Hum kya chahte? Azadi!" We are hearing this again this summer,
triggered by the rape and murder of two young women from Shopian in
south Kashmir. Only the stone deaf could miss the cry.

Between these two summer uprisings came the Assembly elections of
December. As everyone braced for a boycott, people did turn out to
vote. This surprise turnout was presented as nothing short of a
miracle and we were informed that this was "a vote for Indian
democracy". Those who wondered why people who had braved bullets only
a month ago should suddenly queue up to vote were reminded that
Kashmiris were an unpredictable, even contrary, people.

In fact, there is a frightening consistence about the Kashmiri chant
for decades: "Hum kya chahte? Azadi!" Protests have begun for all
sorts of reasons but they are a manifestation of the simmering anger
always close to the surface.

The current round of protests were given a head-start by the
distinctly amateur vacillations of the state chief minister, not least
his puzzling shifts on what may have actually happened to Nilofar, 22,
and her sister-in-law Asiya, 17, on the night of May 29.
Well-intentioned though he may be, Omar Abdullah seems very badly
advised, or else possessed of a political death-wish.

In its election campaign the National Conference made a point of
underlining that it was seeking a mandate for development, for bijli,
sadak, pani. It made no claim to settling masla-e-Kashmir or the
Kashmir issue. But once the elections were over, they went along with
the Indian establishment, which trumpeted the turnout as a decisive
mandate in India's favour. The inability of Omar Abdullah's government
to reach out to the people of the Valley in the past fortnight is a
timely reminder of the dangers of that delusion. In just a little over
10 days, the protests have damaged the patina of normalcy that the
election 'success' painted on a deeply troubled situation.

In the middle of all this, but almost buried by events, the J&K police
announced the arrest of Constable Nazir Ahmed of the India Reserve
Police battalion for allegedly raping a minor girl in Baramulla in
north Kashmir. (They admitted the constable was a former Personal
Security Officer of Ghulam Hassan Mir, legislator and former
minister). Days after the incident, a scuffle between the families of
the victim and the policeman led to the tragic killing of the victim's
grandmother.

Both incidents of the past fortnight must be placed next to one from a
few years ago, when the infamous "sex scandal" led to huge protests,
bringing Srinagar to a grinding halt. That was a tawdry tale of the
sexual exploitation of vulnerable women, including the prostitution of
minors. It was on a massive scale, with the involvement of politicians
, senior bureaucrats, police and paramilitary officers. The scandal
exposed the ugly networks of power and oppression, which prop up the
structures of control in Kashmir. It also laid bare the vulnerability
of women all over the Valley, prey to the brutal arrogance unleashed
by 20 years of intense militarization and unbridled power.

It's a good time to remember that the acquisition of land for the
Amarnath yatra was only the spark that set off last summer's protests.
But the real fuel was widespread resentment about the fact that
thousands of acres of agricultural, orchard and forest land is under
occupation by the army and paramilitary forces, housing their feared
camps and cantonments and vast logistics bases. The Kashmiris'
behaviour then turns out to be underpinned by a fairly straightforward
political reason: we don't need to delve into their fragile 'psyche'.

This week, the lights behind the curtain are being moved around to
give the illusion of change: the CRPF's duties are to be handed over
to the J&K police. If true, this will need massive local police
recruitment and give a disturbing new twist to the Indian government's
promise of employment to young Kashmiris. (However, from the
Establishment's point of view, a policeman in every home may well be a
solution to Kashmir's troubles.)

But this change of guard will not alter the lives of ordinary people.
They do not care if the oppressive figure of the soldier wears the
uniform of the Indian Army, its paramilitary forces, or is their
neighbour in brand new fatigues. Such shallow transformation is not
new: people remember the 'disbanding' of the dreaded Special
Operations Group, which was simply merged into regular police
operations; or the highly public way in which the CRPF replaced the
BSF in Srinagar, leaving the countryside in the Army's iron grip.

This summer's protest is not just about the rape and murder of two
women, the violation of human rights, or even the repeal of some
draconian law. The shadow play must not distract us from the real
issue, which is the extraordinary and intolerable militarization of
Kashmir.

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## ek_indian

^^^

You can do better I believe. Please let us know what exactly you want to discuss.

And yes......link please?


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## afriend

IMO he is making a point that, militarisation of kashmir, had done more bad than good..!!!


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## Icarus

vsdoc said:


> India recognises this stance of Pakistan ..... and India is cool with it ..... rather India has reconciled itself to having a perpetually hostile neighbour on its doorstep and is reacting to a situation not of its own choosing ..... but a stark reality nonetheless.
> 
> So India arms itself. So India locks down its borders. So India shuts shop as far as dialogue is concerned. So India looks within and continues to grow ..... slowly but steadily. So India engages with the world ..... increasingly as an equal.
> 
> India will not budge on kashmir dear pakistani brothers and sisters.
> 
> As an Indian I will not allow it.
> 
> And I shall teach my children not to allow it.
> 
> And they will teach their children.
> 
> We will work harder. We will generate greater wealth. We will pay a larger chunk of our earnings to our government too if need be.
> 
> We will outarm you. We will outmaneuver you. We will outnegotiate you. We will outlobby you. We will outsmart you. We will outspend you.
> 
> But we will keep Kashmir.
> 
> You and your future generations have a choice.
> 
> Give up Kashmir and join hands with us as friends.
> 
> Or continue on your present path.
> 
> Yes Kakgeta ..... our grandchildren (and their children) will get to see the results of your choice 70 years from now.
> 
> That I promise you.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Quite a passionate speech, i understand how India must also be possessive over Kashmir but the feeling is mutual....................
Every Pakistani is equally passionate over Kashmir and everything you are willing to do, we are already doing. But personally I would like to see this issue being resolved through a plebiscite, no matter who comes out on top, that does not matter, then we can move on, if Europe can have free trade and open borders after fighting two world wars with each other, why can't India and Pakistani................


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## duhastmish

Kakgeta said:


> Quite a passionate speech, i understand how India must also be possessive over Kashmir but the feeling is mutual....................
> Every Pakistani is equally passionate over Kashmir and everything you are willing to do, we are already doing. But personally I would like to see this issue being resolved through a plebiscite, no matter who comes out on top, that does not matter, then we can move on, if Europe can have free trade and open borders after fighting two world wars with each other, why can't India and Pakistani................



Because india and pakistan are on war all the time. india dont trust paksitan. and extremist groups existing and haing safe haven in pakistan. 

because india dont want to have - 26/11 every week.

no free trade untill - pakistan stop helping let and other so called jehadi --terrorist groups. 

since india need to strengthen its border - they are having hard time entering and terrorizing india. so in frustration they bomb pakistan itself - see whats happening around you.

violence cant be solution to this war !!!!!


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## garibnawaz

Jana said:


> And thousands of Kashmiris who support him are also funded by Pakistan dahhhhhhhhhhh
> 
> And oh Mirwaiz Omar also wants Kashmiri land back, Yasin Malik also wants Kashmir land back which is occupied by India.
> 
> The millions of Kashmiris also want their land back so who are funding them???



People are voting for Abdullah's for years. They also voted Mehbooba Mufti's PDP last time.



> We are Pakistanis, says Kashmiri leader Geelani



Any idea why you require a visa to visit to Pakistan?

Why was Mehbooba Mufti's visa denied by Pakistan?

GB


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## MarkTheTruth

Recently, the International Peoples Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice disclosed that 2,700 unmarked graves with nearly 3,000 bodies across 55 villages in three districts, Bandipore, Baramullah and Kupwara of Indian Held Kashmir (IHK) have been discovered. Some of the mass graves contain 3 to 17 bodies. The Tribunal claimed that the graves could be of those missing from custody of Indian troops. The report is based on research between November 2006 and November 2009 and has been authored by prominent human rights activists of India and occupied Kashmir. Last year too, the group had found 1,000 unmarked graves in the Kashmir valley. Dr. Angana Chatterjee of the Tribunal said, The graves might be containing the bodies of the 8,000 people who disappeared during 20 years of the armed conflict. The history of atrocities in Indian held Kashmir is as old as the dispute itself. Similarly, the High Court Bar Association of Occupied Kashmir maintained that more than 100,000 Kashmiris had been killed by Indian troops in the last two decades, while 10,000 persons were disappeared in custody. Similarly, it said that more than 300,000 Kashmiris were tortured in jails and interrogation centers.

Ironically, human rights are violated on large scale in the so-called worlds largest democracy. To crush the Kashmiri Liberation movement, India has employed various techniques including black laws. Prevention of Terrorism Act (POTA), Terrorist and Disruptive Activities Act 1990 (TADA) and Armed Forces Special Powers Act 1990, (AFSPA) are enforced in Kashmir despite the fact that they contravenes the Indian Constitution and international law. These laws violate the basic human rights such as right to life, the right to liberty and security of the person and the right to remedy. The Armed Forces (Jammu & Kashmir) Special Powers enforced on 10 September, 1990 authorized even a non-commissioned officer to search any place, fire at any person (and kill), or arrest on the basis of suspicion. TADA gives security forces and armed forces special powers for unauthorized administrative detention without formal charges or trial for up to one year. Under POTA, any person can be put into prison for not disclosing the information that can prevent an act of terrorism.

The International humanitarian organizations such as Amnesty International condemned these draconian laws. According to Amnesty International TADA gives a license to kill. Wide powers of arrest granted under TADA, combined with the absence of fundamental legal safeguards for detainees, create a climate, which encourages abuse of power and facilitates illegal and secret detention. AFSPA violates provisions of International human rights law, including the right to life, the right to remedy and the rights to be free from arbitrary deprivation of liberty and from torture and cruel inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. The Amnesty International is of the view that the POTA continue to be used to detain political opponents and members of minority populations.

Currently, 700,000 Indian army troops are deployed in occupied Kashmir to crush the Kashmiri freedom movement. The Indian occupational forces have killed more than 91,168 innocent Kashmiris, 38,450 rendered disable or crippled for life and 30,000 women have been raped and molested. More than 105,238 hoses and shops have been destroyed and 106,755 have become orphaned in Jammu and Kashmir, since 1989. According to the Association of Parents of Disappeared Persons 8,000 to 10,000 Kashmiris disappeared mysteriously in Indian Held Kashmir from 1989-2008 while the Asian Centre for Human Rights put the figure at six thousand. Up till July 2006 number of innocent Kashmiris in Indian custody accounted to 3,735.

The condition of Kashmiris detained in different jails of the occupied Kashmir is worse than that of those in Abu Gharib prison in Iraq. The interrogation methods and manners used in these jails are ghastly. Lord Eric Aveybury, Chairman, British Parliamentary Human Rights Group has described Indian atrocities as, The atrocities committed by Indian imperialists in occupied Kashmir surpass brutalities of apartheid regime in South Africa or of Nazis 50 years ago.

Arundhati Roy, a well respected Indian writer, while speaking in New York in May 2006, said: The biggest myth of all times is that India is a democracy. In reality, it is not. Several states in India are on the verge of civil war. In the Kashmir valley alone, some 80,000 people have been killed. In Iraq, there are 1, 50,000 military personnel whereas in Kashmir valley there are some 7, 00,000.

Human rights organizations are routinely denied permission to investigate in a free manner. Media-men are being attacked and arrested. Humanitarian relief is limited as external agencies are not being allowed to provide medical assistance and other relief materials. Recently, the Amnesty International has requested President Barack Obama to help end human rights abuses in IHK. Even a five member European Tribunal recently expressed dissatisfaction about the prevailing human rights situation in IHK and urged India to improve this situation.

Many cases of human rights violation stem from abuse of power under repressive laws and police/army brutality unleashed against the Kashmiri people. They are taken into custody for acts that are legitimized by international human rights standards of free speech, freedom of association and assembly, and freedom of the press. The Indian governments failure to account for these abuses and to take rigorous action against its forces responsible for murder, rape and torture speaks volumes of its fake posture of secular and democratic state. These atrocities are true reflection of its policy of condoning human rights violations by the Indian security forces in Kashmir that needs to be addressed, the sooner the better.

Human Rights Violations in Indian Held Kashmir


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## FreekiN

duhastmish said:


> *because india dont want to have - 26/11 every week.*
> *
> no free trade untill - pakistan stop helping let and other so called jehadi --terrorist groups. *



We are having 26/11 every week. Thank you very much. 

While India has denied a joint investigation with Pakistan, Pakistan has banned all extremist groups. Pakistan has caught the perpetrators of 26/11 and the leader of LeT. Pakistan is fighting a war in itself. And all India can do is blame Pakistan that 'its not doing enough.'

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## ps80

In my view this is not a new observation. I think this has always been the standpoint of the UN and the World Bank regarding the J&K issue. 

Nevertheless, the more important aspect of this news article is that the WB is going ahead with providing funds for this project.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Kashmiris Call For International Probe After India Rape Cover-Up​*


> The report of the pro-Indian government of Kashmir claimed that the two women  a 17-year-old and her 22-year-old sister-in-law  died by drowning, and not rape and murder at the hands of Indian occupation soldiers.
> 
> The events of Dec. 15, 2009, mark another Kashmiri uprising against oppressive Indian rule. This is embarrassing for New Delhi and its allies in Washington and London, especially Pakistan cannot be blamed for this and after the move by China to stop treating Kashmiris as Indian citizens and World Banks decision to decline treating Kashmir as Indian territory.
> 
> Thousands of angry Kashmiris took to the streets on Dec. 15, a day after federal police investigating the deaths of two women said they "drowned" and were not raped and killed, triggering claims of a cover-up.
> 
> The deaths of Neelofar Jan, 22, and her sister-in-law, 17-year-old Asiya Jan, in May had sparked protests in the disputed Himalayan region. Locals said they had been sexually abused and killed by the security forces.
> 
> Four police officers were later arrested on charges of suppressing and destroying evidence in the case. The officers were freed in September, a move that further angered residents.
> 
> Dr. Maleeha Lodhi, Pakistans former envoy to Washington and a potential replacement for the incumbent ambassador there, wrote in her column in todays The News:
> 
> _In the month that marked 20 years of the uprising against Indian rule, occupied Kashmir once again erupted in anger. The shutters came down and life was paralyzed by a strike across the Valley on Dec 15. This time the protest was ignited by the findings of a federal police investigation into the rape and murder in May of two women in Shopian, a town 35 kilometers from Srinagar.
> 
> Even more interesting is the reaction of pro-Indian Kashmiris who are part of the Indian "government" in the occupied region. This is how Dr. Lodhi referred to one of those Kashmiri leaders, Mehbooba Mufti:
> 
> Mehbooba Mufti, the opposition leader in the state assembly, had this to say: "The whole charade of investigations by multiple agencies was aimed at shielding the culprits rather than bringing them to book_."
> 
> She was referring to the bizarre sequence of events since May when local officials initially claimed that the girls had drowned, then retracted this in the face of mass protests and agreed they might have been murdered.
> 
> In September after weeks of protests, India's Central Bureau of Investigation or CBI took over the case.
> 
> In a report for India's high court Monday, the federal agency concluded that the two had "drowned", ruling out rape and murder.
> 
> *"International Probe" *
> 
> On Tuesday, thousands of people gathered in the main square in Shopian chanting, "We want freedom" and "Sisters, we are ashamed that your killers are still free."
> 
> In both Shopian and Srinagar, shops and businesses stayed shut and public transport remained off the streets in response to a strike called by the Majlis-e-Mashawarat, a local group demanding justice for the two women.
> 
> The strike is also supported by Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, head of the All Parties' Hurriyat Conference, an alliance of pro-independence groups in the region.
> 
> On Tuesday, Farooq called the CBI report politically motivated and said that he supported the Majlis-e-Mashawarat's call for an independent international probe into the deaths.
> 
> Veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Gilani also strongly condemned the CBI report, terming it as "an attempt to shield the men in uniform".
> 
> Tens of thousands of Muslims have been killed since simmering discontent against Indian rule turned into a full opposition in 1989.
> 
> In 1948, the United Nations adopted a resolution calling for a referendum for Kashmir to determine whether the Himalayan region should be part of India and Pakistan. But India has rejected to hold referendum in Kashmiri territory. Kashmiris see India as an "occupier state".




Kashmiris Call For International Probe After India Rape Cover-Up Pakistanpal&#8217;s Blog


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## syedtalha

deckingraj said:


> With all due respect to your sentiments please do a reality check...We were not kicked out during 65 war...we were not kicked out when militancy was at its peak in Kashmir...We were not kicked out in Kargil...and now when India - the worlds second largest growing economy is growing like anything how on this earth you think we will be kicked out??
> 
> My advice check the cost-benefit ration of your protest and you will soon realize that it don't make sense...




you know how much it costs for one indian soldier to station in siachen and how much it costs to feed one hungry household for oneday. Now check the amount of money spent per day on stationing soldiers on siachen and the number of people dying with hunger in mainland india... u'll soon get your cost-benifit ratio right and leave for good.


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## EjazR

*The Hindu : Opinion / Lead : Kashmir insurgency, 20 years after*

_The contours of the tussle have changed in a fundamental manner over the years, but both the conflict in Kashmir and the conflict over Kashmir continue._

December 2009 marks 20 years of the insurgency in Kashmir. During this period, Kashmir has metamorphosed -- in terms of its politics, discourse, the nature of the militancy, the level of external intervention and perceptions of the potential solutions. Yet, much of Indias understanding of Kashmir remains ensnared in the limited confines of history, and thus India fails to understand the changes, declines to advance from age-old positions, and refuses to look for fresh ways to address the conflict.

What has changed since 1989? Let us compare the big picture, then and now. In 1989, India found itself on the losing side of the Cold War with hardly a friend in the international community. More so, the international community was negatively disposed towards India vis-À-vis the Kashmir issue. Pakistan was optimistic after having been part of the alliance that had defeated the Soviet Union in the Afghan war and was confident of its ability and standing in the region. The Kashmiri dissidents, Pakistan and the militants in Kashmir had managed to internationalise their cause and garnered significant levels of sympathy for it. India was being pushed into a corner.

This is no more the case. India is increasingly referred to as an emerging power and is considered a key stabilising player in the South Asian subcontinent. The international community is no longer keen to discuss Kashmir or force a solution; it knows India will not be pushed. The stress is now on India and Pakistan finding their own answers, and not much attention is being given to the wishes of the Kashmiris themselves. Furthermore, unlike in the late-1980s, Pakistan is a much-weakened power now without many reliable strategic partners. The state is widely feared to be heading for failure due to its ingrained promotion of terrorism. Kashmir is no more a pet issue for the international community. There are more pressing issues at hand.

Pakistan has clearly foundered over Kashmir. In fact, its strategy vis-À-vis India in general has gone wrong and has backfired terribly. Many of the elements Pakistan supported in an effort to liberate Kashmir from India have turned against it. More significantly, Pakistan has seemingly lost the direction of its foreign policy. Contradictory statements on Kashmir abound, rendering the countrys position confusing and ambiguous. Such ambiguity points to a realisation among some people in Pakistan that it needs to think beyond Kashmir, and that it is self-defeating to continue the fight. This has important implications for the conflict.

In India, too, the discourse on Kashmir has changed drastically. The countrys mainstream discourse traditionally considered the issue as one driven and created purely by Pakistani interference. Everyone seemed oblivious to the fact that Pakistan had been given the space for this interference due to Indias traditional mishandling of Kashmir. This mainstream thinking was infused in the media discourse. Bollywood films and popular writing portrayed Kashmir as a terrorism-infested region that needs to be cleansed of Pakistani agents. It tended to draw a picture of Kashmiris as supporters of terrorism and Pakistan. This thinking is undergoing a positive transformation. Today there is a growing awareness about the nuances of the Kashmir problem, and about the follies the Indian state has committed there. There is an understanding of the pervasive sense of alienation among Kashmiris and a growing realisation that anti-India protests are not necessarily pro-Pakistan. There is the realisation that there is a real problem in Kashmir that needs a political resolution.

Over the years, Kashmiri views on Pakistan have changed. Although many people in Kashmir never wanted it to become part of Pakistan, there were some who thought they would be better off there. Moreover, given the negative light in which many Kashmiris often saw India, there was a tendency, even if not so widespread, to view Pakistan with sympathy and admiration. This is changing, thanks to the existential problems that Pakistan is facing, the atrocities that Pakistan-sponsored terrorists have committed in Kashmir, and the general perception that joining Pakistan may not be the best option for Kashmir. As a result, there are fewer Pakistan supporters in the Valley today, and even fewer of them for militants coming from Pakistan to liberate Kashmir from Indian tyranny.

Kashmiri politics today is multi-faceted and more vibrant than ever. Analysts and observers tend to get confused while writing about the State primarily because they struggle to appreciate the often contradictory nature of todays political environment. The people of Kashmir are learning to speak two contrasting languages at once: one of dissidence, and the other of mainstream issues. Many analysts argued that India lost Kashmir during the protests against the Amarnath land transfer. Likewise, many argued after last years elections in Jammu and Kashmir (when more than 62 per cent of the people voted as compared to around 43 per cent in 2002) that the historic referendum was the last nail in the coffin of separatist politics and azadi sentiments in the Valley. Both arguments failed to understand the complexity of the politics in Kashmir or appreciate that political affairs there have changed fundamentally.

The mainstreaming of dissent is another phenomenon in contemporary Kashmir. Gone are the days when the separatists were an untouchable lot. Today, separatist politics and azadi sentiments are more nuanced, more complex than before and take many forms, ranging from the All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) to the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP). The PDP would object to being called pro-azadi, separatist or even soft-separatist, yet the fact remains that it walks a very fine line. On the one hand, the self-rule proposal put forward by it asks for more than what the Constitution of India promises the State and is closer to the platform proposed by separatist leaders (such as Sajjad Lone). On the other, the PDP has a political constituency that speaks the language of both separatism and azadi. Yet, having ruled the State for three years, the PDP is a mainstream Kashmiri political party with clear links to the Indian state. On the other side of the divide, the dissident APHC often raises governance-related issues. This crossing of traditional political boundaries by the hitherto opposed political groups indicates the complexity of Kashmirs new politics.

The meaning of azadi has also grown in complexity over the last 20 years, becoming more nuanced and developing more shades of meaning, which many analysts fail to recognise. It would not be wrong to say that the aspirations for freedom  the azadi sentiment  were strong in Kashmir when the insurgency began. However, 20 years on, this sentiment is more refined today; azadi does not always mean self-determination in popular parlance now. Azadi today means freedom from the fear of militants and security forces, as well as dignity and self-respect, self-governance, and the absence of New Delhis perceived political high-handedness.

Many and multifarious pathways aimed at reconciliation have emerged. Although the India-Pakistan peace process is currently on ice, the Srinagar-New Delhi conversation is very much alive. There are dialogues taking place between Jammu and Srinagar as well as among Muzaffarabad and Srinagar and Jammu. Traders from both sides of the State have established a joint J&K Chamber of Commerce and Industries. While many of these peace tracks need to be revived, their very existence shows the fundamental manner in which the conflict has been transformed from the time violence permeated the State.

While it is true that its contours have changed in a fundamental manner, it is also true that both the conflict in Kashmir and the conflict over Kashmir continue to exist. The stakeholders must show more determination and enthusiasm to engage each other and discover a solution. However, to do so they must first acknowledge Kashmirs metamorphosis.

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## Nemesis

Excellent article. Not a suprise that it's from the Hindu.


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## ek_indian

^^^

Very thoughtful article.

The best statement was "anti-India protests are not necessarily pro-Pakistan". 

*This shows that people are more favourble to Indian state. This is why precisely there are lot of turn around in elections as well as protests against the government. Both things in same place!!*

I agree there are some shortcomings but not as much as it is it is hyped. However being an Indian, we can not adopt a _head-buried-in-sand _approach. We need to tackle them. Kashmiri people, like any aother person, want basic requirements of life. Indian government needs to take proper action in this regard. Things are somehow going in positive direction but too slow. This itself is a shortcoming. Indian governemnt should keep communicating all the political sections of the region and reach at best mutual agreement. Our home minister has taken some steps but results are yet to be seen.

Overall a nice article. This is precisely a reason why I changed my newspaper to The Hindu.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Saturday, 26 December 2009
Muharram 08, 1431 *


> SRINAGAR: At least 60 mourners were injured on Saturday when police used batons, firing in the air and tear gas to break up a procession by hundreds of Shia Muslims in Indian-administered Kashmir's main city, officials said.
> 
> During the first Muslim month of Muharram, Shias across the world mourn the death of the Prophet Mohammad's grandson Imam Hussein in the Iraqi city of Karbala in the year 680.
> 
> But in Kashmir, Muharram processions and public gatherings by separatists have been banned since a rebellion against Indian rule broke out in 1989.
> 
> More than 50 people were also detained, police officer Ali Mohammad said.
> 
> Saturday's procession in Srinagar was headed by members of Ittihadul Muslimeen Jammu Kashmir, part of the region's main separatist alliance, the All Parties Hurriyat (Freedom) Conference.
> 
> Stone-throwing Shias clashed with police in several parts of Srinagar after the procession was stopped, forcing police to fire tear gas shells, witnesses said.
> 
> The mourners were beating their chests with their fists, and chanted La Ilaha Illalah (There is no God but Allah).
> 
> We strongly condemn the police brutality, said Moulana Abbas Ansari, a leading Shia priest and chief of Ittihadul Muslimeen.
> 
> The injured included at least six photojournalists, police said.
> 
> Tens of thousands of people have been killed in Jammu and Kashmir, India's only Muslim-majority state since an anti-India insurgency broke out two decades ago.




DAWN.COM | World | Sixty injured as Indian police stop Kashmiri Shia procession


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## fhassan

Ironic that the police beat them, as opposed to them beating themselves...


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## Abu Zolfiqar

it isnt Ashura yet......thats when Shiias hit their backs. And its only extremist Shiias who actually beat themselves badly.

You are only supposed to hit softly, not use chains or ropes. It's a symbolic gesture, not a gesture of macho-ism.


but yes --- it is ironic. But it seems people of Sri Nagar are used to this nonsense.


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## FireFighter

Wow...damn these mother****ing Indian soldiers beating innocent civilians 



fhassan said:


> Ironic that the police beat them, as opposed to them beating themselves...



That's not police....thats indian army beating civilians in broad daylight

I am sorry to say this but the shias need to pick up arms and beat the indians army out to mark ashura in Kashmir instead of beating senses out of themselves


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## Abu Zolfiqar

this is a holy time.....for all Muslims - not just Shiites.


and they should be able to do their processions free from impediments and barricades


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## scrumpy

Aren't most of the processions restricted because it leads to communal tension when passing through areas dominated by people from the other community ?

I have heard of a number of riots in Lucknow which were sparked by these processions.


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## FireFighter

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> this is a holy time.....for all Muslims - not just Shiites.
> 
> 
> and they should be able to do their processions free from impediments and barricades


Yeah, i agree in theory, but Islam doesn't require you to commemorate the death of your forefathers when you're being oppressed yourself and a war is imposed on you....rather the hour of need is that you fight your oppressors and by doing so you'd make your God and forefathers proud b/c you stood up for them

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## Abu Zolfiqar

sectarianism has never really been a problem in occupied Kashmir.....for obvious reasons


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## pak-yes

^^you are right


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## Moorkh

police(law and order) is a state concern in india, so it was the J&K police not the imaginary indian police which was involved in the incident.

J&K police like the police in other indian sates is entirely under the state government and not under the central government so please dont blame india for yet another brutality against kashmiris.

also if it is against the law, you are not supposed to start such processions. the police must have done what was necessasry to scatter the crowd. it is unfortunate that some people got injured.


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## Moorkh

@firefighter

look closely , it is policemen in the photograph. the beret they are wearing. army doesnt wear such berets. 

also where are the guns. soldiers on duty wont be caught dead without their service weapons.

also look at the person on the left most in the photo. he has a beard. not allowed by the army.

so i can safely claim that it was the police and not the army


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## Icarus

duhastmish said:


> Because india and pakistan are on war all the time. india dont trust paksitan. and extremist groups existing and haing safe haven in pakistan.
> 
> because india dont want to have - 26/11 every week.
> 
> no free trade untill - pakistan stop helping let and other so called jehadi --terrorist groups.
> 
> since india need to strengthen its border - they are having hard time entering and terrorizing india. so in frustration they bomb pakistan itself - see whats happening around you.
> 
> violence cant be solution to this war !!!!!



Oh, and i suppose India is playing the role of the Damsel in distress in this epic war ? Buddy, India is about as innocent in this war as Monicca Lewinski is in the Clinton Case..................Do the math...........


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## macrocks

Let the darn idiot's go to Pk who cares for them and as far as Kashmir is concerned it will remain part of India no matter what.


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## General Of The Oasis

In the indian democracy everyone has right to speak,weather they are capitalist or separatist.It is the greatness of the indian system, which our neighbours can't understand.in fact they don't know the meaning of democracy  
another thing Mr geelani has right to speak only, not the right to act.


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## FreekiN

macrocks said:


> Let the darn idiot's go to Pk who cares for them and as far as Kashmir is concerned it will remain part of India no matter what.



Thank you for your hilarious and repetitive view. No one is going to be leaving Kashmir any time soon so that dream is pretty much crushed. 

"God does not forbid you, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loves those who are just."(Qur'an 60:7-8)

So Kashmir becoming part of India is highly unlikely, however a resolution such as the Chenab formula is likely.


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## General Of The Oasis

nice dream!!!!


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## Xeric

There are two things wrong;

One, Claiming Shias to be unIslamic; well NONE of the Ulemas have declared Shias as Non-Muslims, they are yet to be classified as such, so till the time it doesnt happen, the best thing to do is to accept them as Muslims.

Two, if someone believes that something is 'wrong' because it creates 'unrest' and it must be stopped by force then he should re-read democracy and freedom of choice. Why dont we beat out the Christians or the Hindus going to their worship places? We celebrated X-mas, didnt we? So would Holi and Diwali would be! It also concerns a few people in the neighborhood when they see these occasions being celebrated, so shouldnt every country ban other religious practices on this stupid plea?


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## Xeric

And what happened to the proud secular indian flag, hats off to the indian freedom of religious practices and the secular face, you guys never stop amazing me!


As for your problem with violence, well if no other country bans this practice, why should secular hindustan do that?

Or do you want that the disgusting practices that some hindus do should also be dealt with violently?!

You need to understand one thing, religious freedom entails free allowance of holy acts/practices unless the Constitution bans it. Or may be if the indian sensibilities are so shy, why dont you restrict them at some particular place, street, corner, ground, mosque etc so that the sensitive eyes of my fellow indians dont witness the 'gruesome' activities?

Wont that be more desirable, noble, acceptable and as par with the secular indian stature??


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## Pax Ottomana

Maashallah! May we see more news like this in the future. Thank you for sharing brother.

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## Nazru

xeric said:


> And what happened to the proud secular indian flag, hats off to the indian freedom of religious practices and the secular face, you guys never stop amazing me!
> 
> 
> As for your problem with violence, well if no other country bans this practice, why should secular hindustan do that?
> 
> Or do you want that the disgusting practices that some hindus do should also be dealt with violently?!
> 
> You need to understand one thing, religious freedom entails free allowance of holy acts/practices unless the Constitution bans it. Or may be if the indian sensibilities are so shy, why dont you restrict them at some particular place, street, corner, ground, mosque etc so that the sensitive eyes of my fellow indians dont witness the 'gruesome' activities?
> 
> Wont that be more desirable, noble, acceptable and as par with the secular indian stature??



Do you even understand what is "law and order". 
Any freedom is available only till it does not pose a threat to general peace.

Indian constitution, provide practice, profess and propogate any religion as a fundamental right. The fundamental right to congregate is subjected to clauses relating to law and order clauses.

If you do not know there are so many bans imposed on Hindu groups wanting to celebrate public functions, citing law and order reasons, in my state which has about 5% muslim population. 

The Hindu : Hindu forum threatens to violate ban on rally
The Hindu : Tamil Nadu News : &#8220;Steps to light Karthigai deepam will be taken&#8221;


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## ssheppard

A suicide bomber has targeted a large gathering of Shiite Muslims in the capital of* Pakistan-controlled Kashmi*r, killing five people and wounding 80 during a rare sectarian attack in an area police said has little history of militant violence.

Muslim militants have fought for decades to free Kashmir, which is split between India and Pakistan and claimed by both, from New Delhi's rule.

But while Muzaffarabad has served as a base for anti-India insurgents to train and launch attacks, the capital - and most of the Pakistani side - has largely been spared any violence, as militants have focused their firepower across the frontier in the Indian-controlled portion, police officer Sardar Ilyas said.

The suicide bomber detonated his explosives as police tried to search him at a checkpoint outside a commemoration of the seventh century death of the Prophet Muhammad's grandson. The gathering attracted about 1,000 people, said police officer Tahir Qayum. The five killed included two police, he said.

Most of the 80 injured were Shiites participating in the tribute, held every year during the Islamic holy month of Muharram, said Ilyas. Ten of the wounded are in critical condition, he said. Minority Shiites in Pakistan are often targeted by radical Sunnis.

During another Shiite gathering in the southern port city of Karachi, an explosion wounded 30 people, but authorities determined the blast was caused by gas that had accumulated in a sewer line, said police chief Waseem Ahmad. Shiites later held a protest on the road and torched three vehicles, he said.

The bombing in Muzaffarabad highlights the growing extremism of militants in Pakistani Kashmir.

Many of the armed groups in the region were started with support from Islamabad. But some of them have turned against their former patrons and joined forces with the Taliban because the government has reduced its support under US pressure.

The partnership is a dangerous development for Pakistan because it could enable the Taliban to carry out attacks more easily outside its sanctuary in the country's tribal areas in the north-west. More than 500 people have been killed in retaliatory attacks since the military launched a major anti-Taliban offensive in mid-October in the militant stronghold of South Waziristan near the Afghan border.

The Press Association: Five killed in Pakistan bombing


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## ssheppard

Death toll from suicide blast rises to 15 in Pakistan-controlled Kashmir

At least 15 people, including mourners and policemen, were killed and over 100 injured when a suicide bomber ripped through a Muharram procession near an imambargah in the Pakistan-controlled Kashmir on Sunday evening, police said Monday.

In the regional capital of Muzaffarabad, a suicide bomber blew himself up when intercepted by security personnel guarding a Muharram procession. The procession was passing close to a police barricade in front of the imambargah on CMH Road when the bomber struck, the official news agency APP quoted a senior police officer as saying.

At least 15 of those injured are in critical condition, it said.

The gathering attracted about 1,000 people, said police officer Tahir Qayum. Those killed included two policemen, he said.

The report said that the bomber was trying to enter the imambargah. Panic ensued the blast, which flung a severed leg and other body parts across the ground outside the imambargah as the power went off, said witnesses.

"The bomber came in front of me. He was accompanying the procession. Police searched everybody on the gate and the bomber blew himself during the body search," said Atif Bashir, a medical storekeeper with a bandaged forehead.

"The blast was so loud as very near to my home," local resident Pir Meraj told Xinhua. "It is terrifying as blasts seldom happen here," Meraj said.

Security was put on high alert across Azad Jammu and Kashmir following the attack, and the army was called in to assist the civil administration in maintaining law and order.&#12288; 


Death toll from suicide blast rises to 15 in Pakistan-controlled Kashmir_English_Xinhua


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## vsdoc

FreekiN said:


> So Kashmir becoming part of India is highly unlikely, however a resolution such as the Chenab formula is likely.



The mind is a beautiful organ. For practitioners of western medicine, it is considered as the final frontier. 

We have not even plumbed 10&#37; of the depths in terms of neurological science, compared to other specialities, every day bringing new insights and advances.

Like the post above. 

The power of imagination, the power of dreams, the infinite possibilities and unlikliest of scenarios the human mind can conjure up.

For example my mind as I type this is conjuring up this amazing scenario which I would like to share with you guys as my first offering of the last week on 2009 ..... and like the Chenab, its linked to a river too!

Its called the Indus formula.

Views, comments .....

Cheers, Doc


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## antartica

Kashmir issue can only be resolved by mutual agreements and not war . Pakistan should leave the option of capturing Kashmir by force ( they tried this option in past ) . This doesnt sounds viable .
My opinion on this is that both the parties should sit and work on some solution which agreed to all three parties . 
But before this , there should be a environment of peace and trust . If incidents like 26/11 keep on happening then it may not be possible for india to come to the discussion table . One should take care of the Indian sentiment as well .
Kashmiri's(of the valley) should take note that the kashmir valley is a very small area in j&K and rest of the state would never like to be a part of pak or any independent state . So better find out a solution which is long lasting .


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## FreekiN

vsdoc said:


> The mind is a beautiful organ. For practitioners of western medicine, it is considered as the final frontier.
> 
> We have not even plumbed 10% of the depths in terms of neurological science, compared to other specialities, every day bringing new insights and advances.
> 
> Like the post above.
> 
> The power of imagination, the power of dreams, the infinite possibilities and unlikliest of scenarios the human mind can conjure up.
> 
> For example my mind as I type this is conjuring up this amazing scenario which I would like to share with you guys as my first offering of the last week on 2009 ..... and like the Chenab, its linked to a river too!
> 
> Its called the Indus formula.
> 
> Views, comments .....
> 
> Cheers, Doc





Yeah ok whatever. Like that had anything to do with what I said. I really don't see what your trying to point out but you can keep fantasizing in Bollywood land that Kashmir wants to be apart of India anyhow. LOL.

India should take up it's responsibility as the 'worlds largest democracy' to actually put up a vote for Kashmiri's on who they would like to join. And we'll all see the results. 

But sometimes, a solution can only be come up with actually about what made the problem.

So lets see why Kashmir 'belongs to India' and why Kashmir belongs to Pakistan...


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## FreekiN

British Indian Empire in 1909. Religions highlighted. Hopefully it should help.

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## PakSher

Indians please stop vining about 26/11. Stop terrorism in Pakistan first. Col. Prohit bombed the Samjotha Express first that killed 95 Pakistani Citizens and injured 200. All RAW funded terrorism from Afghanistan needs to countered and more 26/11 need to come to teach the Indians more lessons. 28&#37; of Azad Kashmir was captured with force and that is the only language India understands.


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## antartica

PakSher said:


> Indians please stop vining about 26/11. Stop terrorism in Pakistan first. Col. Prohit bombed the Samjotha Express first that killed 95 Pakistani Citizens and injured 200. All RAW funded terrorism from Afghanistan needs to countered and more 26/11 need to come to teach the Indians more lessons. 28&#37; of Azad Kashmir was captured with force and that is the only language India understands.


So , with this method we would never find a solution of Kashmir ! specially as per the peoples will .


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## T-50

moha199 said:


> You got to be kidding me dude India didn't occupy Kashmir but are trying kashmiri not to join Pakistan ahhahahah If people want to join then let them now you are occupied army as of your own artical 370. What do you call occupation? For heaven's sake you have half a million soilders in Kasmire and you call it not occupied. shame



Because the terrorist you send killed thousand of Hindus and make them flee to India from Jammu, just a Muslim practice where they kill non Muslims. 
ever
Becasue half of million soilders are their to protect lives of people from PAK terrorist, who think their view is right kill those who have different views. 

remember the Muslims girl, Ruksana who kill Pak Terrorist , all those their are on GUN POINT, becasue if they dont go their , they got killed, nothing more is option rather then say YES to safe their life.


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## T-50

PakSher said:


> Indians please stop vining about 26/11. Stop terrorism in Pakistan first. Col. Prohit bombed the Samjotha Express first that killed 95 Pakistani Citizens and injured 200. All RAW funded terrorism from Afghanistan needs to countered and more 26/11 need to come to teach the Indians more lessons. 28&#37; of Azad Kashmir was captured with force and that is the only language India understands.



Give us proof about Col prohit , like we given about LET and JEM founder , the whole world see on TV LeTand JeM Founder, Give us Dawood back which is in pak and how daughter married to your ex cricketers. which we have provided proof. Even UN also convienced about LeT and JeM and they are in PAK. 

Its only Indian Political which prevented IA to launched attack on PAK like PAK did on India from last 20 years, when they allowed their will be mayhem in PAK , because IA will give Terrorism to Terrorism.


All you can Cry about Col. Prouhit and even you cry , what PAK given proof to India about him? not single paper. and better stop lying, till you dont have proof.


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## vsdoc

FreekiN said:


> Yeah ok whatever. Like that had anything to do with what I said.



It has EVERYTHING to do with what you said. You proposed the Chenab formula as a workable solution. 

On my part, since for India and all Indians, historically from the same vintage year, the whole of Pakistan itself is disputed territory, I proposed a softening of our stand in the form of the Indus formula ..... where you are allowed to keep the part west of the Indus .... that means Karachi stays with you, and by my geography, Lahore and Islamabad come to us.

Please let us know how you react to that solution .... to guage our response to your's. 



> I really don't see what your trying to point out but you can keep fantasizing in Bollywood land that Kashmir wants to be apart of India anyhow. LOL.



Let us not worry about what a section of Indians want or not ..... least of all what a pakistani feels they want or not.

Point is, what does India want ..... the WHOLE of India. That, and nothing less, is what is the only factor of prime importance to us. EVERYTHING else comes a distant second.



> India should take up it's responsibility as the 'worlds largest democracy'



India takes the sentiments of newly "democratic" pakistan under advisement. India takes its democratic secular nature very seriously. We do not see Kashmir as a majority state of any particular religion ..... we see kashmir as we see any other Indian state ..... populated by Indians. And we have popularly elected people's representatives running things satisfactorily in kashmir per the Kashmiri people's choice, under the umbrella of the Indian Democratic Republic, per the Indian citizen's choice. 



> But sometimes, a solution can only be come up with actually about what made the problem.



True .... 1947. 
1) The creation of Pakistan.
2) The invasion and illegal capture of a chunk of Kashmir, officially ceded to the Indian Democratic Republic.

Now that we have dealt with what actually "made the problem", what do you propose we (Indians and Pakistanis) do about it?



> So lets see why Kashmir 'belongs to India' and why Kashmir belongs to Pakistan...



Why bother with 1909, when we have something from a little further back (265 BCE), since we are trying to establish historical perspectives and precedence here ....



Cheers, Doc

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## S-2

*"On my part, since for India and all Indians, historically from the same vintage year, the whole of Pakistan itself is disputed territory, I proposed a softening of our stand in the form of the Indus formula ..... where you are allowed to keep the part west of the Indus .... that means Karachi stays with you, and by my geography, Lahore and Islamabad come to us."*

Funny stuff, doc. You'll have these guys forgetting all about Ralph Peters' redrawing the map of the middle east.

Thanks.


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## vsdoc

Well S-2, I must admit I did not know what or who you were talking about ..... but coming from you, I just had to chek .... good ol Google and Wiki to the rescue!

Isn't he saying much what I have alluded to in previous posts of mine .... except of course his nonsensical views on the treatment of Kashmir?

I am just miffed that my ideas, though completely mine, are not as original in content or origin as I would have liked to think .....

Though on the flip side, it also means that I am not totally delusional as some here would have me believe .....

Can you invite this guy here ..... should be interesting.






Cheers, Doc


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## S-2

*"Can you invite this guy here ..... should be interesting."*

You've no idea how interesting unless you read some of his columns for the N.Y. Post. He leans to the incendiary and provocative side of issues. 

I knew you'd be kindred souls.

Thanks.

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## EjazR

*Opinion / Lead : Exhuming the truth on Shopian*

Apart from Chief Minster Omar Abdullah and his government, politicians in the PDP, and among the secessionists, who cynically cashed in on the deaths to further their agenda must also be held to account.

Last summer, the bodies of two women were washed ashore on the banks of the Rambiara river in Shopian. Eight people were to die, and some 400 suffer injuries as the embers fanned by the deaths set off fires across urban Kashmir.

For the angry young Islamists who spearheaded the protests, the deaths of the two women were murders &#8212; murders, moreover, carried out by a predatory Hindu state in its campaign to annihilate Kashmiris.

The body of one of them, the Jammu and Kashmir High Court Bar Association&#8217;s investigation recorded witnesses as stating, &#8220;was lying half naked on dry sand. Her clothes were torn and hair, clothes and body were dry. Blood was dripping from her nose and it appeared sindoor had been thrown in her forehead.&#8221;

&#8220;During our investigations,&#8221; association leader G.N. Shaheen said, &#8220;we found that the perpetrators belonged to a particular community and they had even vandalised the bodies of the victims.&#8221; In case anyone had missed the point, Mr. Shaheen added the rapists were &#8220;fanatic Hindus.&#8221;

Now, the Central Bureau of Investigation has filed a charge sheet which rips apart the claims of the secessionist-linked Bar Association, politicians like People&#8217;s Democratic Party leader Mehbooba Mufti and much of the media. Backed by forensic detective work by the All-India Institute of Medical Sciences Department of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology, the Central Forensic Sciences Laboratory in New Delhi, the Forensic Sciences Laboratory in Madhuban and the Indian Agricultural Research Institute, the CBI has concluded that the women were neither raped nor murdered.

Inside the bodies of the victims, AIIMS forensic experts found several pieces of evidence suggesting drowning. Pin-sized petechial haemorrhages were found on the membranes of their lungs and bronchi. Larger patches of Paltauf&#8217;s haemorrhages &#8212; bluish-red areas found in the lungs of about half of all drowning victims &#8212; were also visible. Doctors also discovered accumulations of fluid within the alveoli, suggesting pulmonary oedema, another sign of drowning.

None of the findings in themselves was conclusive. So, experts at the Central Forensic Science Laboratory in New Delhi and the Forensic Sciences Laboratory at Madhuban proceeded to conduct tests which matched the soil recovered from the victims&#8217; lungs with the earth in the Rambiara. Further tests showed that diatoms &#8212; a kind of eukaryotic algae &#8212; inside the victims&#8217; lungs were similar to those found among some organisms in the river. During autopsy, the doctors also recovered small insects from the victims&#8217; lungs. Experts at the Indian Agricultural Research Institute identified the insects as silverfish &#8212; small, wingless creatures commonly found under the bark of trees, under rocks, in rotten logs and among leaf litter.

But the finding that the victims were drowned did not rule out the possibility of murder &#8212; or rape. The AIIMS evidence shot down the first possibility in short order. The body of one victim did indeed have a lacerated wound in the forehead, likely caused by hitting against a hard surface but the forensic examiners believed it was &#8220;not sufficient to cause death in the ordinary course.&#8221; There were no external ante-mortal injuries on the other victim.

No evidence of rape, the experts stated, emerged either. The hymen of one of the victims was found intact. Four Shopian hospital staff members &#8212; Javed Iqbal Malik, Tariq Ahmad Tantrey, Mohammad Ismail Sheikh and Mohammad Ismail Sodagar &#8212; corroborated the findings, telling the CBI that there were no injuries on the private parts of the victims. Their clothes, six other witnesses told the CBI, were also intact at the time the bodies were found.
Faked evidence

How could the AIIMS findings be so different from that of two separate teams of doctors who carried out earlier autopsies? Breathtaking incompetence may have played a role. Shopian doctors Bilal Hassan and Nazia Hassan ruled out drowning as a cause of death, claiming to have carried out a flotation test using samples of lung tissue from a victim. In fact, the AIIMS team determined, the tissue was from the heart.

Moreover, the lung flotation test has long been known to be less-than-conclusive proof of drowning &#8212; especially in fresh water, which has a lower density than salt water. Janson Payne-James, Anthony Busuttil and William S. Smock&#8217;s Forensic Medicine: Clinical and Pathological Aspects explains that the test rests on the fact that lung weights are usually higher in people who were drowned. But &#8220;a normal weight is possible in some drowning cases.&#8221; The more sophisticated tests conducted by the CBI experts were either unavailable or unknown to the Shopian doctors.

Nighat Shaheen, Ghulam Qadir Sofi and Maqbool Mir, who made up the second autopsy team, are also charged by the CBI with fabricating evidence. The team insisted that a victim&#8217;s hymen was damaged &#8212; an assertion the AIIMS experts&#8217; videotaped autopsy debunks. Evidence that Dr. Shaheen had fabricated evidence, first reported in The Hindu, also figured in the CBI investigation. She claimed to have taken vaginal swabs from the victims, but later tests revealed that they had in fact been lifted from unconnected women. The CBI claims that Dr. Shaheen offered them three contradictory accounts of how this had come about &#8212; including a claim, now disproved, that she had supplied a vaginal swab from her own body under duress.

The CBI investigators were unable to arrive at a precise determination of just how the women were drowned. Human rights groups who have investigated the case say water in the Rambiara was just ankle-deep.

But official records gathered by the CBI show that the river was flowing at its year-high flood, 228 cubic feet per second, just days before the women&#8217;s death. There is, of course, no direct relationship between the flow of water in the river and its depth. However, the CBI discovered multiple witness testimonies suggesting that the river was indeed flowing at dangerous levels &#8212; the most important being a videotaped media interview given by the husband of one of the victims the day after her death. He asserted that the water level in the river was so high that &#8220;even a man could not have crossed it.&#8221; Independent witnesses, the CBI states, corroborated this claim, with one adding it was also the opinion of the victim&#8217;s family. They also noted that two separate witnesses earlier said the victims had froth around the nose, a classic sign of drowning.

Efforts to link police personnel to the crime went nowhere. Much of the case rested on the testimony of Ghulam Mohaiuddin Lone and Abdul Rashid Pampori, who claimed to have heard the women crying for help from inside a police vehicle parked on the Zawoora Bridge. However, the CBI noted, their testimony was contradictory on at least five issues. Later, the CBI says, it acquired statements from the men that they had been coerced into making the allegations. Forensic tests on 23 police vehicles and 47 officers posted in the area also threw up no evidence that they were in any way linked to the deaths.

The Kashmir High Court Bar Association says it has a letter from AIIMS forensic medicine expert Sudhir Gupta, casting doubt on the forensic findings. Dr. Gupta has offered no independent corroboration of this claim; indeed, in an in-house AIIMS correspondence obtained by The Hindu, Dr. Gupta asked for a copy of the letter so he could give a &#8220;legitimate reply.&#8221; The AIIMS spat has led to some bizarre media allegations, including assertions that its experts helped to rig forensic evidence in the murder of a Delhi teenager &#8212; a case the institution had nothing to do with. Dr. Gupta, whose name was struck off the rolls of the Medical Council of India in 2004, on plagiarism charges, may or may not be a credible witness, but if there is any serious critique of the evidence marshalled by the CBI, it must be assessed and responded to.

Failing this, many must hold themselves to account for the bloodshed that followed the deaths in Shopian. Chief Minister Omar Abdullah and his government must take part of the blame. The government buckled under pressure from Islamists, transferring senior police officials who insisted that the deaths were an accident, suspended others on charges of destroying evidence and paving the way for the judicially-mandated arrests of four suspects, now exonerated. Politicians in the PDP, and among the secessionists, who cynically cashed in on the deaths to further their agenda must also be held to account. Media and civil rights groups, which paid little attention to evidence that from the outset cast doubt on the rape-murder story, cannot evade responsibility either.

Many in Jammu and Kashmir, reared on the half-truths and deceits fed by large sections of the media, are likely to believe the CBI account. It is imperative that proceedings from here on be carried out with complete transparency to avoid further muddying of the waters.

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## Condor

vsdoc said:


> It has EVERYTHING to do with what you said. You proposed the Chenab formula as a workable solution.
> 
> On my part, since for India and all Indians, historically from the same vintage year, the whole of Pakistan itself is disputed territory, I proposed a softening of our stand in the form of the Indus formula ..... where you are allowed to keep the part west of the Indus .... that means Karachi stays with you, and by my geography, Lahore and Islamabad come to us.
> 
> Please let us know how you react to that solution .... to guage our response to your's.
> 
> 
> 
> Let us not worry about what a section of Indians want or not ..... least of all what a pakistani feels they want or not.
> 
> Point is, what does India want ..... the WHOLE of India. That, and nothing less, is what is the only factor of prime importance to us. EVERYTHING else comes a distant second.
> 
> 
> 
> India takes the sentiments of newly "democratic" pakistan under advisement. India takes its democratic secular nature very seriously. We do not see Kashmir as a majority state of any particular religion ..... we see kashmir as we see any other Indian state ..... populated by Indians. And we have popularly elected people's representatives running things satisfactorily in kashmir per the Kashmiri people's choice, under the umbrella of the Indian Democratic Republic, per the Indian citizen's choice.
> 
> 
> 
> True .... 1947.
> 1) The creation of Pakistan.
> 2) The invasion and illegal capture of a chunk of Kashmir, officially ceded to the Indian Democratic Republic.
> 
> Now that we have dealt with what actually "made the problem", what do you propose we (Indians and Pakistanis) do about it?
> 
> 
> 
> Why bother with 1909, when we have something from a little further back (265 BCE), since we are trying to establish historical perspectives and precedence here ....
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers, Doc


Uh!oh!oh!oh!hoho ho!!

Not so fast there DOC.


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## Hulk

As pointed by Ejaz that facts were deliberatly twisted by the media. This is a good indication of what the intentions of some people are, a good amount of people in valley are anti India and can resort to cheap tactics to achieve what they want.


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## Condor

S-2 said:


> *"Can you invite this guy here ..... should be interesting."*
> 
> You've no idea how interesting unless you read some of his columns for the N.Y. Post. He leans to the incendiary and provocative side of issues.
> 
> I knew you'd be kindred souls.
> 
> Thanks.


Yes, S2 - And what you should also know is that he is Dr. Kevorkian's brother


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## ssheppard

indianrabbit said:


> As pointed by Ejaz that facts were deliberatly twisted by the media. This is a good indication of what the intentions of some people are, a good amount of people in valley are anti India and can resort to cheap tactics to achieve what they want.



Look at the positive: Once they got busted.....no one is going to believe them next they they make such allegations....


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## T-50

S-2 said:


> *"On my part, since for India and all Indians, historically from the same vintage year, the whole of Pakistan itself is disputed territory, I proposed a softening of our stand in the form of the Indus formula ..... where you are allowed to keep the part west of the Indus .... that means Karachi stays with you, and by my geography, Lahore and Islamabad come to us."*
> 
> Funny stuff, doc. You'll have these guys forgetting all about Ralph Peters' redrawing the map of the middle east.
> 
> Thanks.




Thats why you people tries to destroy , Buddha Statue in Afghanistan ........ First you go and learn about history.....


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## Xeric

Nazru said:


> Do you even understand what is "law and order".
> Any freedom is available only till it does not pose a threat to general peace.
> 
> Indian constitution, provide practice, profess and propogate any religion as a fundamental right. The fundamental right to congregate is subjected to clauses relating to law and order clauses.
> 
> If you do not know there are so many bans imposed on Hindu groups wanting to celebrate public functions, citing law and order reasons, in my state which has about 5% muslim population.
> 
> The Hindu : Hindu forum threatens to violate ban on rally
> The Hindu : Tamil Nadu News : Steps to light Karthigai deepam will be taken



Well let's assume, i dont like the way Jews read it out to walls and shake their heads, so should i also use force to stop them?

May be i dont like the we hindus burn their dead, seriously it seems gory and cruel to me, should i also stop them with force?

May be i dont like the way Parsis dispose off their dead, may be i should use force to stop them feeding their dead being fed to birds?

Who are you to decide anything?!


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## S-2

*"Thats why you people tries to destroy , Buddha Statue in Afghanistan ........ First you go and learn about history..... "*

What are you babbling about? Don't you see the duo American flags? If you place your cursor over a moniker, you can access that person's personal bio (if they've created one) and posts. That might tell you a lot without having to suffer foot in mouth disease.

"_First you go and learn about_..." with whom you're conversing unless you prefer to be a complete numbskull.

You're talking about the Bamiyan site. Last I checked no American had a thing to do with that idiotic act of destruction.

Thanks.


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## Xeric

rastor said:


> Look at the bright side. At-least they are not getting blown up like their brethren in karachi.


And you intended to be funny, right?



> Civil rights have long been violated in kashmir so this is no surprise.


And that's it? Seriously, and that's it?!


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## EjazR

Its the J&K police which is btw 70&#37;+ muslim in anycase.

These processions are run all across India. In J&K they haven't happened since last 20 years thanks to Pakistani based extremist blowing up bombs during shia processions in 1990. This year, they really wanted to do the procession as the security situation had improved but were not given permission. This is for THEIR OWN security.

Compare this to Pakistani Kashmir where 8 people got killed in the Muzaffarabad blast.
*DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Suicide attack on mourners in Muzaffarabad
*
Or the one in Karachi
*DAWN.COM | Metropolitan | Twenty killed as suicide attack hits Shia procession in Karachi
*

But where the security situation is good, there are no restrictions and even Hindus join in at times. Here are a few examples.
*Muharram observed in Kolkata | TwoCircles.net
Hindus join Muharram processions in Orissa | TwoCircles.net
Muslims turn blood donors on Muharram in Lucknow | TwoCircles.net
Yaum-e-Ashura observed with procession in Hyderabad | TwoCircles.net
Mourning processions in Delhi on Mohurram | TwoCircles.net
Hindus observe Muharram in Bihar village | TwoCircles.net*

So lets be balanced and objective.

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## PlanetWarrior

Steps should have been taken to secure the safety of the worshippers. Sorry but as an Indian and a Hindu I cannot buy the take that it was for their own safety. If the Shia Muslims want to proceed with an Ashura procession in Kashmir and the Indian government claims that the area is stabilising then the government of Kashmir should have arranged adequate security to entail these worshippers to practice their faith without any threats of attacks on them. That is their right and the government's duty. And then to assault a procession of worshippers just ticks me off more. The central government needs to check up what happened here. These are Indian citizens and their rights were infringed.

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## Nazru

xeric said:


> Who are you to decide anything?!



*Law-Enforcement*
If you do not understand what this means in a democratic secular civil society, i dont blame you.


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## Nazru

PlanetWarrior said:


> Steps should have been taken to secure the safety of the worshippers. Sorry but as an Indian and a Hindu I cannot buy the take that it was for their own safety. If the Shia Muslims want to proceed with an Ashura procession in Kashmir and the Indian government claims that the area is stabilising then the government of Kashmir should have arranged adequate security to entail these worshippers to practice their faith without any threats of attacks on them. That is their right and the government's duty. And then to assault a procession of worshippers just ticks me off more. The central government needs to check up what happened here. These are Indian citizens and their rights were infringed.



Agreed, however your comments apply for any procession or gatherings that local law enforcements ban, citing security reason. It is easier for them to ban it than play dice with law and order. Whether is it the perfect way to handle the situation? Maybe not.

More importantly, it is not evident from your post that, whether you agree to "indian police stop Kashmiri Muslims" as a 'purported suppression ofreligion freedom of muslims by the indian establishment' as most people in pdf want to believe or you consider this is a pure civil law and order situation that happens every day in every part of the country with all faiths.


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## Xeric

Nazru said:


> *Law-Enforcement*
> If you do not understand what this means in a democratic secular civil society, i dont blame you.



Yeah right!

You impose law by infringing upon the religious rights of a community! Is that it?

Hindus consider Cow sacred, but Muslims slaughter them on Eid, so what do you think is the right way to deal with this problem? Use force and beat people out or may be we can ask (read order) Muslims to do the slaughtering thingy away from wary eyes, lookerbys and passerbys in a restricted place? Wont that be more civil and 'democratic and secular?

So you want to 'help' people by beating them out, great!


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## PlanetWarrior

xeric said:


> Well let's assume, i dont like the way Jews read it out to walls and shake their heads, so should i also use force to stop them?
> 
> *May be i dont like the we hindus burn their dead, seriously it seems gory and cruel to me, should i also stop them with force?*
> 
> May be i dont like the way Parsis dispose off their dead, may be i should use force to stop them feeding their dead being fed to birds?
> 
> Who are you to decide anything?!



Off topic. Are you Hindu . I note the term "we hindus". I find burial of the body to be eaten by worms and vermin and to become fertiliser in a few years to be "gory" but that is an issue which is unrelated to this thread


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## Nazru

xeric said:


> Yeah right!
> 
> You impose law by infringing upon the religious rights of a community! Is that it?
> 
> Hindus consider Cow sacred, but Muslims slaughter them on Eid, so what do you think is the right way to deal with this problem? Use force and beat people out or may be we can ask (read order) Muslims to do the slaughtering thingy away from wary eyes, lookerbys and passerbys in a restricted place? Wont that be more civil and 'democratic and secular?
> 
> So you want to 'help' people by beating them out, great!



Off-topic.
But there is no stopping muslims slaughtering cows on Eid. However DarulUloom suggested us to avoid cows. Anyway most of us have never eaten cow and consider them respectable. This is nothing to do with religion but with culture.

Avoid cow slaughter on Eid, suggests Dar-ul-Uloom - Express India


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## Xeric

PlanetWarrior said:


> Off topic. Are you Hindu . I note the term "we hindus". I find burial of the body to be eaten by worms and vermin and to become fertiliser in a few years to be "gory" but that is an issue which is unrelated to this thread



I wanted to right *way*, but it turned out to be something else.

Anywaz, it is guud that you understood my point in totality.

You are right, who are we to decide upon something?

You may find the worm eating gory and i may find something else gory, well that's how the life is, but would that entail knocking off people?

And it is not at all unrelated to the thread; the issue being discussed is that as the indian police find shias beating and cutting themselves gory so they have the right to beat them out and stop them from the act by use of force. So if that be the case, i should also have the right to stop everything that *I* feel gory to my sensibilities? i hope you got the point, which indeed no one have understood better than you!


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## EjazR

Ok I found an Editorial from a Srinagar based paper because I had heard from friends that shias do take out Muharram processions so was a bit surprised by these reports. This should clarify to concerned Pakistani friends about the reality of the situation. I wonder if Pakistani-based media will publish any article taking this viewpoint though.
*
Time to think - Daily Kashmir Images*
Once again on Saturday uptown Srinagar presented itself as a battlefield when Shia mourners clashed with the police as latter tried to thwart a Muharram procession. Scores of people including some policemen were injured in these clashes while many more were taken into preventive custody. Why this clash? To answer this question, one may perhaps need to try and disconnect 

Muharram mourning with the kind of politics that has come to sully everything in Kashmir. In fact the reason for the authorities, in the first place, to disallow Muharram procession in Civil Lines areas of Srinagar also lies in the peculiar politics that has dominated every sphere of activity in Kashmir, including what is and should have been a strictly religious ritual.

*Prior to 1989, Muharram processions would be taken out without any problem and the authorities would not only allow it but also facilitate it. Even today, Muharram processions are taken out everywhere barring a few areas in uptown Srinagar.* The authorities have their own reasons for putting restrictions on processions in certain areas. Without attesting the administration&#8217;s view or the reasons thereof for the kind of fears it has, pragmatism demands that it should not be seen as &#8220;undue interference in religious matters&#8221; as certain political forces want the commoners to believe. Instead, one should give some benefit of trust to the administration and ensure that there are no undue problems for the overall law and order situation in the City. Confrontation for the sake of confrontation helps none. And certainly when it comes to the religious matters, we all need to understand that Islam is a religion of peace, and anything and everything that endangers peace cannot be seen under the banner of Islam.

*Prominent Shia leader Maulvi Iftikhar Hussain Ansari was quite unequivocal in stating so while reacting to the Saturday&#8217;s (8th Muharram) clashes. Talking to a news agency, Ansari questioned the very logic of taking out procession when everybody knew that administration had disallowed the same and that restrictions under section 144 CrPC are in force. Ansari even regretted the kind of politics that is being played by provoking people into defiance by politicizing their religious sentiments. Muharram is the time to remember the grand sacrifices of Prophet&#8217;s (PBUH) grandchildren in Karbala (Iraq) 1360 years ago; it&#8217;s not the time for politicking, Ansari said.
*

Ansari&#8217;s assertions should come as an eye-opener for all those who claim to be the followers of the religion of peace &#8211; Shias and Sunnis both. Cutting across the sectarian and other divides, common people need to understand that historically some forces have selectively interpreted some religious texts to suit their own political sub-texts. There is ample evidence suggesting that common people have all along been used and abused for fighting larger political battles for which religion too has time and again been used as a political vehicle.
Battle of Karbala is about the eternal fight between the Good and the Evil. Nobody can claim to serve the cause of good by adhering to the evil machinations. Unnecessarily creating law and order problems which put the safety and security of the general public in jeopardy is evil. It can be anything but certainly not what the Prophet of Islam (PBUH) and His grandson Imam Hussain (AS) exemplified. Muharram processions and other congregations are held to remember the supreme sacrifices made by Imam Hussain (AS) for upholding the banner of good and justice. As we commemorate the occasion, it should reinvigorate our souls and prepare us for similar challenges in our own lives. Indulging in needless confrontations is certainly not the way to venerate Karbala martyrs.
-------------------

I won't be surprised if some APHC based offshoot was part of this rally instead of keeping a purely religious event.

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## PlanetWarrior

xeric said:


> I wanted to right *way*, but it turned out to be something else.
> 
> Anywaz, it is guud that you understood my point in totality.
> 
> You are right, who are we to decide upon something?
> 
> You may find the worm eating gory and i may find something else gory, well that's how the life is, but would that entail knocking off people?
> 
> And it is not at all unrelated to the thread; the issue being discussed is that as the indian police find shias beating and cutting themselves gory so they have the right to beat them out and stop them from the act by use of force. So if that be the case, i should also have the right to stop everything that *I* feel gory to my sensibilities? i hope you got the point, which indeed no one have understood better than you!



Yes indeed. If you read my earlier post you will not that it ticks me off that these worshippers were attacked by the police for whatever reason the police tried to justify that attack. In fact I plan on submitting letters to the media in New Delhi questioning the actions of the police. I am in *total* agreement with you that the police attacking these worshippers is nothing short of an abuse of power on their part. I however disagree that it could have been religious intolerance as from my limited knowledge of Kashmiri politics , that state is run by a Muslim CM. Nonetheless, even if this attack on worshippers took place in for example Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, I would be equally incensed

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## PlanetWarrior

Nazru said:


> Agreed, however your comments apply for any procession or gatherings that local law enforcements ban, citing security reason. It is easier for them to ban it than play dice with law and order. Whether is it the perfect way to handle the situation? Maybe not.
> 
> More importantly, it is not evident from your post that, whether you agree to "indian police stop Kashmiri Muslims" as a 'purported suppression ofreligion freedom of muslims by the indian establishment' as most people in pdf want to believe or you consider this is a pure civil law and order situation that happens every day in every part of the country with all faiths.



As a Hindu and a citizen of India I believe in the right of all faiths to practice their religion in India. The "law and order" situation as my earlier argument suggests is for the law and order agencies to implement. Blank bannings on religious processions or ceremonies is not implementation of law and order but an abuse thereof by the enforcers as seems evident in this case. I would be equally angry if the police attacked Hindu worshippers on Diwali or Christian worshippers on Christmas. My argument is a general statement and not restricted to the Muslim community of Kashmir or India. India as a secular state needs to recognise the rights of its people to practice their religions. Islam and Hinduism etc are entrenched in India and by now the authorities should be aware of the auspicious dates of the major religions in their areas and make provisions to allow the worshippers of these religions to practice their faith without getting a beating from the police


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## Xeric

PlanetWarrior said:


> Yes indeed. If you read my earlier post you will not that it ticks me off that these worshippers were attacked by the police for whatever reason the police tried to justify that attack. In fact I plan on submitting letters to the media in New Delhi questioning the actions of the police. I am in *total* agreement with you that the police attacking these worshippers is nothing short of an abuse of power on their part. I however disagree that it could have been religious intolerance as from my limited knowledge of Kashmiri politics , that state is run by a Muslim CM. Nonetheless, even if this attack on worshippers took place in for example Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, I would be equally incensed



i appreciate your stance.

It isnt that difficult to see the truth!


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## ambidex

its better been beaten by police for sake of law and order or security then been bombed. This is what has happened in Karachi today. Kashmir is not an exception specially when the muslim demographics has gone into transient phase of changes from Sufis to Shia and sunni.

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## rastor

xeric said:


> And you intended to be funny, right?



Sarcastic actually. No offense to the dead. I am just sick of this conflict.



xeric said:


> And that's it? Seriously, and that's it?!



For kashmiris..? Pretty much. Most Indians don't give 2 hoots about kashmir. Its just seen as a "terrorist" place. I personally think its in Indian interest if pak gets a say in kashmiri affairs. But hey I am just another average joe.


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## Panditji

Firstly, take the communal element out of this - It is Muslim Police controlling a Muslim population. Most Hindus are any ways driven out by the bloody pogrom conducted by the militants. Those who were not killed, now live in refugee camps in Jammu and Delhi. Refugees in their own country, because of an unjust pogrom, abetted and actively assisted in cash and kind by Pakistan. Those esteemed commentators on their high horses about religious freedom and civil liberties above don't give a dam. Do they? This is sheer duplicity.

Secondly it is not the religious procession, but the malicious elements in the crowd that are the root cause of the trouble. The convener of the procession is a 'separatist' organization (Read for-hire, on-the-dole lackeys of Pakistan). Their aim is not any procession or religious expression of grief on remembering the Martyrdom, but to consciously create commotion and strife, and then cry hoarse about oppression by highlighting the commotion caused by the situation. 

The police is damned if they take action, damned if they don't. What do you expect if the procession turns violent, starts stone pelting and going all sort of things inappropriate for a Muharram procession? Should they control such mischief, or should they not? They are the mechanism to maintain Law and Order. They are doing their job, and these armchair activists should know better than just thumbing noses at their thankless performance of their duties.

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## kumar_V1.0

xeric said:


> Well let's assume, i dont like the way Jews read it out to walls and shake their heads, so should i also use force to stop them?
> 
> May be i dont like the we hindus burn their dead, seriously it seems gory and cruel to me, should i also stop them with force?
> 
> May be i dont like the way Parsis dispose off their dead, may be i should use force to stop them feeding their dead being fed to birds?
> 
> Who are you to decide anything?!



Nobody has a right to interfare in there religious right as long as it doesnt come in the way of general peace and infringes others right of freedom. 

I cant play relegious songs after a cutoff time in the evening on a festival as it infringes others right to peace.

You understand that.


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## FreekiN

vsdoc said:


> It has EVERYTHING to do with what you said. You proposed the Chenab formula as a workable solution.
> 
> On my part, since for India and all Indians, historically from the same vintage year, the whole of Pakistan itself is disputed territory, I proposed a softening of our stand in the form of the Indus formula ..... where you are allowed to keep the part west of the Indus .... that means Karachi stays with you, and by my geography, Lahore and Islamabad come to us.



LOL? Indus river goes to Pakistan and Lahore and Islamabad go to India? Then whats the point of debating if i'm Indian LOL. Thats just crazy and you know it lol.



vsdoc said:


> Please let us know how you react to that solution .... to guage our response to your's.



My reaction: WTF NO. There you got my reaction. 




vsdoc said:


> Let us not worry about what a section of Indians want or not ..... least of all what a Pakistani feels they want or not.
> 
> Point is, what does India want ..... the WHOLE of India. That, and nothing less, is what is the only factor of prime importance to us. EVERYTHING else comes a distant second.



Yeah, ok you want the whole of India? Deal with the separatist movements India keeps getting defeated by. Then we'll talk about feelings.





vsdoc said:


> India takes the sentiments of newly "democratic" pakistan under advisement. *India takes its democratic secular nature very seriously. We do not see Kashmir as a majority state of any particular religion ..... we see kashmir as we see any other Indian state ..... populated by Indians.* And we have popularly elected people's representatives running things satisfactorily in kashmir per the Kashmiri people's choice, under the umbrella of the Indian Democratic Republic, per the Indian citizen's choice



And taking everything in a democratic secular nature is what's causing the problem. Ok. You don't see it as a Majority Muslim state right? Then look at it as a state that will say 'Oh Hells NO' to joining India. Look at it as a bunch of Indians that don't want to be Indians and are going to do whatever they can for eternity to break free. But you people can't do that. You  and  when you realise a bunch of Indians [not particularly Kashmiri's] don't want to be Indian. 

They live under their elected government because they must. But we all know things will change.





vsdoc said:


> Now that we have dealt with what actually "made the problem", what do you propose we (Indians and Pakistanis) do about it?
> 
> Why bother with 1909, when we have something from a little further back (265 BCE), since we are trying to establish historical perspectives and precedence here ....
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3d/Maurya_Dynasty_in_265_BCE.jpg
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Calling Pakistan's invasion of Kashmir 'illegal' won't change much. In your eyes its illegal. In our eyes, its legal. And in the Kashmiri's eyes it's freedom. We still have not exactly discussed about the problem yet. As you haven't brought up the issue about Ranjit Singh.

I think you should take a look at what I posted 1 more time. It was British India in 1909, and religious provinces were highlighted. And it's totally relevant to the discussion because, after all, we were given Independence from British India and not the Maurya Dynasty.

___

Calling for *backup*, Pakistani's!


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## Hulk

Everyone jumps on criticizing the police whenever such things happens, no one criticize people who politicize religion. The whole idea of looking every incidence with the lens of religion is politicizing the religion, and those who play politics in the name of religion are politicians and not religious leaders.


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## ahmed_naj

> Point is, what does India want ..... the WHOLE of India. That, and nothing less, is what is the only factor of prime importance to us. EVERYTHING else comes a distant second.





> India takes its democratic secular nature very seriously. We do not see Kashmir as a majority state of any particular religion ..... we see kashmir as we see any other Indian state ..... populated by Indians



Oops, seems like you've gotta problem here majority of Kashmiris' dont consider themselves indians:






and you guys still bury your heads in the sand and even refuse to call Kashmir disputed territory 

How about letting Kashmiris decide their future?


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## Hulk

ahmed_naj said:


> Oops, seems like you've gotta problem here majority of Kashmiris' dont consider themselves indians:
> 
> and you guys still bury your heads in the sand and even refuse to call Kashmir disputed territory
> 
> How about letting Kashmiris decide their future?



Dude I cannot see the video as it is blocked here, I guess it might be one which has a big gathering of anti Indian supporters.

I must admit that there are big numbers of anti Indian's in Kashmir but there is no way to prove they are in majority.

The only way we can test the real numbers (approximately) when these separatist contest the elections and prove how much following they have, so far only few have tried and lost.

So while it is incorrect to say that India's feel that majority of Kashmiri's are with them Pakistani's also cannot claim they want to be with Pakistan.

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## Panditji

You guys are funny!

For you whole channels streaming stuff incriminating Pakistan for the trouble in Kashmir are partisan, Indian propaganda blah blah. Yet you post these two-bit youtube clips, and expect people to honor them as true, unbiased public opinion. 

Yes - for you, convenience and support to the 'cause' are the criteria to support or denounce any evidence. Ostriches choose to bury their head in sand just on these two criteria.


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## Dawkins

Pity the police & administration, trying to save one kind of religious lunatics from the other.


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## Icarus

At this rate we will never find a solution to this discussion, much rather the Kashmir issue.........................I believe it's not about us(Pakistan) or them(India)...........Its about the people of Kashmir and it's no secret that they are sick and tired of Indian rule, as for the half million soldiers, if you think they are there to "PROTECT" the population, then you are living an illusion, if they were "PROTECTING", i don't think IoK would have the world's highest rate of rape by a domestic security force...................................The people of Kashmir, for the first time should be given the right to choose their own future............


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## s90

India-Pakistan would have to agree on current cease fire bounderies because both sides wont be ever giving up on claims, as for Geelani *sigh* no comments.


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## SSGPA1

Hindus should be banned from visiting that cave (the yatra thing) in the occupied Kashmir because they were targetted in past. 

This will help understand Indian Hindus the value of human rights.

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## Nazru

SSGPA1 said:


> Hindus should be banned from visiting that cave (the yatra thing) in the occupied Kashmir because they were targetted in past.
> 
> This will help understand Indian Hindus the value of human rights.


If (your intent is to know if hindu processions are also banned)
then read my earlier post where i have provided links to such occurrence
else (if your intent is to troll)
then my reply shall be 'we shall ban the amarnath yatra after Hajj is banned because of all the stampedes year after year'.


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## Xeric

Nazru said:


> If (your intent is to know if hindu processions are also banned)
> then read my earlier post where i have provided links to such occurrence
> else (if your intent is to troll)
> then my reply shall be 'we shall ban the amarnath yatra after Hajj is banned because of all the stampedes year after year'.



Oooo, it hurts na?!

The pinch is always guud


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## Hulk

SSGPA1 said:


> Hindus should be banned from visiting that cave (the yatra thing) in the occupied Kashmir because they were targetted in past.
> 
> This will help understand Indian Hindus the value of human rights.



Come out of looking everything from the lens of religion. Both sides in this case are Muslims.


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## Mak Kam

And what do you think about 700,000 indian soilders in Kashmir??


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## SSGPA1

Nazru said:


> If (your intent is to know if hindu processions are also banned)
> then read my earlier post where i have provided links to such occurrence
> else (if your intent is to troll)
> then my reply shall be 'we shall ban the amarnath yatra after Hajj is banned because of all the stampedes year after year'.



talk about present and not past ... Is the yatra banned this year? NO then there shouldn't be any ban on Muslim religious activities ... besides India is the occupying force, why do you think an attack will take place on Kashmiris?

Now don't come back with the lousy response by giving an example of the Karachi blast as Pakistan is a soverign country and we are discussing Indian Ocuppied Kashmir (_MAQBOSA KASHMIR_).


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## PlanetWarrior

SSGPA1 said:


> talk about present and not past ... Is the yatra banned this year? NO then there shouldn't be any ban on Muslim religious activities ... besides India is the occupying force, why do you think an attack will take place on Kashmiris?
> 
> Now don't come back with the lousy response by giving an example of the Karachi blast as Pakistan is a soverign country and we are discussing Indian Ocuppied Kashmir (_MAQBOSA KASHMIR_).



So the Muslim CM of a semi autonomous Muslim dominated state decides to ban a Muslim procession and you  about Hindus. Get your mind out of that bigoted gutter and see what this entire issue is all about. It is about the use of excessive force by the police on people who are attempting to practice their faith. Your earlier post and this post shows you in no better a position than the police who attacked these worshippers. Sadly it is the mindset of people of your ilk who create situations such as these. Now go take your pellet gun and go and shoot at a few of those dilapated Hindu temples which still exist in Pakistan or better still gather up a mob and go and beat a few Hindus for what happened to these worshippers. I am certain that that will make you feel like a better Muslim nah ?

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## Abu Zolfiqar

actually, hindus in Pakistan are happy here. They are not bound by state-sponsored "caste system"


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## SSGPA1

PlanetWarrior said:


> So the Muslim CM of a semi autonomous Muslim dominated state decides to ban a Muslim procession and you  about Hindus. Get your mind out of that bigoted gutter and see what this entire issue is all about. It is about the use of excessive force by the police on people who are attempting to practice their faith. Your earlier post and this post shows you in no better a position than the police who attacked these worshippers. Sadly it is the mindset of people of your ilk who create situations such as these. Now go take your pellet gun and go and shoot at a few of those dilapated Hindu temples which still exist in Pakistan or better still gather up a mob and go and beat a few Hindus for what happened to these worshippers. I am certain that that will make you feel like a better Muslim nah ?



Yes I blame the Indian Hindus because they are the occupying force who have Mufti playing to their tunes. When you don't have a response then you talk about the condition Hindus in Pakistan like a numb nut ... Indian Occupied Kashmir is a disputed territory, all of these issues are because of your occuping forces ... get out of Kashmir and let them live like humans ...

and always remember that Pakistani Hindus are far better off than the Indian Muslims!!


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## Naradmuni

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> actually, hindus in Pakistan are happy here. They are not bound by *state-sponsored "caste system*"



Care to explain how it is state sponsored.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Narad said:


> Care to explain how it is state sponsored. I would lose all the respect I have for you if you fail to justify your comment here.



read your constitution, indian


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Narad said:


> You are no learned person are you? (think tank? My a$$ )
> 
> Indian constitution says that all Indians are equal regardless of their caste, creed, religion, or native.
> 
> I think you have nothing better to offer except some mindless rant.



i am aware already about attempts to abolish untouchability in constitution, but the practice of untouchability continues and dalits continue to live outside villages, excommunicated from society. They are denied entry into temples, they are not allowed to share community wells, they are forced to drink water from separate glasses in some rural cafes, and they are frequently attacked or abused if any sign of defiance is shown.


believe me -- i'm worried about my own self and my own affairs -- i couldnt care less about the plight of dalits or shudras but I was trying to make a point.


To us, Pakistan/Kashmir is in our hearts. And every citizen in Pakistan regardless of religion is a citizen.

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## Xeric

Narad said:


> You are no learned person are you? (think tank? My a$$ )
> 
> I think you have nothing better to offer except some mindless rant.





Narad said:


> Brother, You have a hindu blood running in your vains. Your forefathers were tortured to the extent that they unwillingly bowed to accept their new religion. Just to make facts straight.



Hold your horse boy, before it kills itself!


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## mjnaushad

Narad said:


> Brother, You have a hindu blood running in your vains. Your forefathers were tortured to the extent that they unwillingly bowed to accept their new religion. Just to make facts straight.


I am happy that my blood is now clean thanks to my forefathers. i hope you got the point.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Actually, it was many dalits who converted to Islam -- many of them not by any external cohesion; it was 100&#37; voluntary.

in fact, i remember meeting a Hyderabady hindu whose family converted pre-partition and made the way to Pakistan.

Sufi mystics also had an instrumental role, and dont forget that Baluch/Pakhtuns (huge chunk of the nation) have been Muslim long before Pakistan even existed.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

make fool of myself??? look whose bloody talking....

and you better fix your attitude before talking to me, boy. I'm in no mood for CRAP from you people.


as for Kashmir, who is the fool? You occupy people who clearly want nothing to do with you; some of them want total independence from both. We support plebicite in Kashmir.....you call it "integral part" of your federation (for whatever that's worth)


now if you'll excuse me, i'm going to finish my beefburger. "ham"burger not very representative name


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## FreekiN

Calm down, all of you.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

even your ministers call them "backwards" people


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## UchihaCG

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> make fool of myself??? look whose bloody talking....
> 
> and you better fix your attitude before talking to me, boy. I'm in no mood for CRAP from you people.
> 
> 
> as for Kashmir, who is the fool? You occupy people who clearly want nothing to do with you; some of them want total independence from both. We support plebicite in Kashmir.....you call it "integral part" of your federation (for whatever that's worth)
> 
> 
> now if you'll excuse me, i'm going to finish my beefburger. "ham"burger not very representative name



Yes sir, "integral part"
Instrument of Accession (Jammu and Kashmir) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don't talk as if Indians don't care about Kashmiris and that only Pakistanis care for the well being of them. If that's the case. Why doesn't your government support an independent Kashmir? Why try to annex it in 3 wars with us?  All this warring is hurting your fellow brothers in Kashmir. So if you care for them, give up your claim on Kashmir. Then tell India that we're selfish. Otherwise, we are no fools... you are making one out of yourself.


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## UchihaCG

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> even your ministers call them "backwards" people



Backward *caste*? Yes; and I know many BC's and that's what _they call themselves too._ Not a bad thing, like you're making it sound like ^^. Where in hell did a minister call them "backwards *people*"? Source.


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## Hulk

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> even your ministers call them "backwards" people



If there is any discrimination in system, it is positive not negative. They get more benefits not less.

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## Naradmuni

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> even your ministers call them "backwards" people



It is an administrative term used to define socially and economically backward section of society so that proper measures can be taken for their upliftment. Its like calling a developing country a developing country and not a developed country.


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## Hulk

@Narad make your point, do not get personal.


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## Naradmuni

indianrabbit said:


> @Narad make your point, do not get personal.



My apologies to all.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

We did not ask u to give us back the forcefully integrated Jungadh state then hold plebiscite. Point is Indians hold no moral grounds when it comes to Kashmir. ZERO. Nil.


whether its Dalits burnt alive in caste clash or Dalits lynched in Haryana --among tens of thousands of other cases --it seems local governments are doing squat to end the caste-based violence, since caste system is part of hinduism --though ironically it is only practiced in hindoostan. In Pakistan, they dont practice it....and in Nepal, they are outwardly rejecting it. 




> India's Untouchables are relegated to the lowest jobs, and live in constant fear of being publicly humiliated, paraded naked, beaten, and raped with impunity by upper-caste Hindus seeking to keep them in their place. Merely walking through an upper-caste neighborhood is a life-threatening offense.
> 
> Nearly 90 percent of all the poor Indians and 95 percent of all the illiterate Indians are Dalits, according to figures presented at the International Dalit Conference that took place May 16 to 18 in Vancouver, Canada.
> 
> Crime Against Dalits
> 
> Statistics compiled by India's National Crime Records Bureau indicate that in the year 2000, the last year for which figures are available, 25,455 crimes were committed against Dalits. Every hour two Dalits are assaulted; every day three Dalit women are raped, two Dalits are murdered, and two Dalit homes are torched.
> 
> No one believes these numbers are anywhere close to the reality of crimes committed against Dalits. Because the police, village councils, and government officials often support the caste system, which is based on the religious teachings of Hinduism, many crimes go unreported due to fear of reprisal, intimidation by police, inability to pay bribes demanded by police, or simply the knowledge that the police will do nothing.
> 
> "There have been large-scale abuses by the police, acting in collusion with upper castes, including raids, beatings in custody, failure to charge offenders or investigate reported crimes," said Narula.




India's "Untouchables" Face Violence, Discrimination




but the damage is done...governments cannot be expected or trusted to get rid of the caste system. Society must take a stand. Dalits too must stand up for their rights. Dalits must also reject the special status granted to them by the politicians as this was done to create vote banks rather than upliftment of the under priviliged.





But lets just end this subject, i dont want to sound like spokesperson or rights advocate for "backwards hindu indians" ....its not my line of duty, or my concern


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## SSGPA1

Narad said:


> It is an administrative term used to define socially and economically backward section of society so that proper measures can be taken for their upliftment. Its like calling a developing country a developing country and not a developed country.



yah sure .. it is a term used to isolate those folks to certain areas and certain jobs ... then those certain areas are attacked by upper class Hindu mobs ... see it is easier that way because everyone knows that those 10 houses on fire are in a backward caste locality ...

same treatment for Muslims ... call them traitors and terrorists ... always blame them for riots ... we get it this is why we claim that Muslims in India are not happy but that is for another thread.

This thread is about how Indian police, again part of the occupying force, treats Muslims in teh Occupied Kashmir. Why do you think Azad Kashmir has no such issues? Why all issues are taking place in the Occupied Kashmir?

Grow up and work within your own society to highlight the plight of Kashmiris because it will benefit India ... you will not be able to occupy Kashmir for long, one day Occupied Kashmir will be free from your occupation and will be part of the Azad Kashmir insha-Allah.


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## Hulk

In India caste system is there in Muslims and Chritians too. Do you know that?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

indianrabbit said:


> In India caste system is there in Muslims and Chritians too. Do you know that?



Islam and caste-system are counter-intuitive. Islam looks beyond race/ethnicity. Ranking people in any type of man-made system is completely forbidden -as we believe we are all created equal before Allah SWT








p.s. despite few untoward incidents, we don't burn missionaries in Pakistan


----------



## Naradmuni

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> We did not ask u to give us back the forcefully integrated Jungadh state then hold plebiscite. Point is Indians hold no moral grounds when it comes to Kashmir. ZERO. Nil.



Moral ground? Post NRO, Zardari has no moral right to continue as president of pakistan. better advise him first. 

As far as kashmir is concerned, Jiski Laathi, Uski Bhains. Hope you get my point.


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## UchihaCG

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> We did not ask u to give us back the forcefully integrated Jungadh state then hold plebiscite. Point is Indians hold no moral grounds when it comes to Kashmir. ZERO. Nil.



What 'moral' grounds does Pakistan have on Kashmir?
Same goes for you; Pakistan has nothing to do with Kashmir. ZERO. Nil. Quit the whining. 



> one day Occupied Kashmir will be free from your occupation and will be part of the Azad Kashmir insha-Allah.


Who told you Kashmiris want to be part of Pakistan? That's bias from your side. 

Again.... no one cared to answer me. Why don't you support an Independent Kashmir? Why all ths bla bla about INDIA. Correct yourself *FIRST*. Then come talking to India about


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Narad said:


> Moral ground? Post NRO, Zardari has no moral right to continue as president of pakistan. better advise him first.



Oh, i agree. I didn't vote for him though.




> As far as kashmir is concerned, Jiski Laathi, Uski Bhains. Hope you get my point.



rule of the daanda 

As far as Kashmir is concerned, I believe you are having expertise in this field. Take away the "laathi" or keep it --makes no difference..... the "bhains" will rebel even harder


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## ps80

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Ranking people in any type of man-made system is completely forbidden -as we believe *we *are all created equal before Allah SWT



Nice words!! I second them.

Does "we" include all human beings including non-muslims?

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## Hulk

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> actually, hindus in Pakistan are happy here. They are not bound by state-sponsored "caste system"



There are very less Hindus in Pakistan, and they know if they raise their voice against happiness, there might be no tomorrow.

A state which sees everything from the lens of religion, where a person gets converted to Islam, because he felt otherwise he cannot be captain. Speaks a lot in itself.

Also heard about few Hindus coming to India and even had the opportunity of being next door neighbor to one such family.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Narad said:


> Not so much compassion with Kafirs, I guess.
> 
> I m no expert on Islam but I ve heard stuffs like, kill kafirs and go to jannat, somewhere on this forum.
> 
> 
> P.S. Genuine argument. Nothing personal. Thanks.



Nah, not me; and not most Muslims I can comfortably say.

in times of peace, not war:

Killing of one is killing of all mankind
Rescue of one is rescue of all mankind



i think it was hindu extremists who massacred Christians in Orissa.


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## Naradmuni

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> As far as Kashmir is concerned, I believe you are having expertise in this field. Take away the "laathi" and the "bhains" will rebel even harder



Our Lathi is is our immense economic development, political clout and millitary might. Last heard was that Zardari and team was roaming place to place asking for economic aid. Lets see how you plan to 'take away' our lathi by offering "sasti chai paani" to some hurriat leaders. And stay alert, and better guard your baluchistan or we will be seeing a new prime minister of baluchistan very soon.


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## Xeric

Narad said:


> Not so much compassion with Kafirs, I guess.
> 
> I m no expert on Islam but I ve heard stuffs like, kill kafirs and go to jannat, somewhere on this forum.
> 
> 
> P.S. Genuine argument. Nothing personal. Thanks.


Well i dont think it was 'genuine' concern of yours, but anywaz, it is like Modi saying kill all Muslims in Gujrat and you'll reborn into a King!


ps80 said:


> Nice words!! I second them.
> 
> Does "we" include all human beings including non-muslims?



Yes, it does.

Islam says that no black is lesser than the white and no white is superior than the black etc etc.

Try googling up Prophet's (PBUH) Last Sermon

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## Abu Zolfiqar

ps80 said:


> Nice words!! I second them.
> 
> Does "we" include all human beings including non-muslims?



the mug was talking about caste system and ISLAM


Islam not only demands that we treat people of other faiths/beliefs with respect -- but even if you look at the history of Islam, you will know that 

a.) Muslims were instrumental in helping to safeguard the distinctive traditions of the Christian Coptic Church in Egypt from the oppressive practices of the dominant Church of Rome

b.) Muslim Turks are credited in Islamic history with safeguarding eastern European Protestants and Eastern Orthodox Christians alike from pressure and persecution exerted by the Church of Rome.

c.) The "golden age" of Jewish religious scholarship in pre-medieval Spain was achieved in an environment of religious freedom supported by the dominant Muslim society.

d.) Religious minorities -- especially Jews, Christians and Hindus -- have flourished under Muslim rule and, thus protected, their ancient places of worship have survived to this day.

look at india when it was booming under Muslim rule


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## Xeric

Narad said:


> Our Lathi is is our immense economic development, political clout and millitary might. Last heard was that Zardari and team was roaming place to place asking for economic aid. Lets see how you plan to 'take away' our lathi by offering "sasti chai paani" to some hurriat leaders. And stay alert, and better guard your baluchistan or we will be seeing a new prime minister of baluchistan very soon.



Hey would you please stick to the topic?

Are you actually so ******** or may be you just like to troll around?

The other guy is paying you respect and you start mounting his head!


And i know of you military might! The same 'might' where you Generals and Air Chief yap that india is not prepared in case of war till 2012 or may should i quote the statement of your COAS where i said that when it comes to defence, india stands nowhere as compared to Pakistan, or may be you were referring to your spec forces who took three days to flush out rag tag terrorists?

Stick to the topic!!


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## Hulk

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Oh, i agree. I didn't vote for him though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rule of the daanda
> 
> As far as Kashmir is concerned, I believe you are having expertise in this field. Take away the "laathi" or keep it --makes no difference..... the "bhains" will rebel even harder



Big deal, we can show you similar stuff for Baluchistan. By the way what was east Pakistan , if this was rule of lathi then, what kind of rule was that. Kashmir does not even compare.

If 1 finger points at us, 4 points at you. Just because East Pakistan got separated does not mean you are clean.


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## Naradmuni

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> d.) Religious minorities -- especially Jews, Christians and* Hindus -- have flourished under Muslim rule *(look at ancient Persia, or even bharat) and, thus protected, their ancient places of worship have survived to this day.



This is correct only untill the rule of Shah jahan. His Satanic successor Aurangzeb was very brutal on minorities. Destroyed several temples, forcefully converted thousands of hindus to muslims. Introduced jazia and other crap on minorities. Hadnt been his forceful conversion, muslims in the subcontinent would have hardly be 5 % of the total muslim population now.


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## Xeric

indianrabbit said:


> Big deal, we can show you similar stuff for Baluchistan. By the way what was east Pakistan ,



Please do so!

BTW we are living in 2009 (another day or two and it'll be 2010), just though that i should remind you if you forgot to come out of '71!!

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## ps80

xeric said:


> Islam says that no black is lesser than the white and no white is superior than the black etc etc.



Should I read it like
"No non-Muslim is better than a Muslim and no Muslim is better than a non-Muslim"

in other words

"All humans are the same irrespective of religion, caste, color and sex"

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## Naradmuni

xeric said:


> *Hey dumbhead *would you please stick to the topic?
> 
> Are you *actually so stupid* or may be you just like to troll around?
> 
> The other guy is paying you respect and you start mounting his head!



Mind your language. I have 1001 ugly words for you in my dictionary. If you wanna hear those, come see me personally.

If you want your presence felt, then make some meaningful argument and if you cannot think of anything meaningful then better keep your mouth shut. Better not open your big mouth and show your  worth to other people.


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## Xeric

ps80 said:


> Should I read it like
> "No non-Muslim is better than a Muslim and no Muslim is better than a non-Muslim"



The 'english' is self-explanatory, do the _kasht_ and read it out loud when you search it up, it would definitely help.

Tiers, hierarchy, classification, demarcation, caste etc is not part of Islam when it comes to measure the worth of a living being! It is simple as that.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Narad said:


> Our Lathi is is our immense economic development, political clout and millitary might.



are you obtuse? How does that benefit Kashmiris, who are wanting independence ---some of whom are actually calling for TOTAL independence and a new country.

your so-called "lathi" is bearing no fruit for majority of your population, most of which is below poverty line and living in most abject conditions



> Last heard was that Zardari and team was roaming place to place asking for economic aid.



I don't have a copy of his itinerary. He can ask for more personal cheques --which arent even going to national exchequer. So it makes no difference to us. 



> Lets see how you plan to 'take away' our lathi by offering "sasti chai paani" to some hurriat leaders.



it makes no difference......they are from Kashmir and bred there. We give them very little support actually. But we dont place them under house-arrest every time the freedom-marchers walk the streets of Sri Nagar waving Pakistani flags




> And stay alert, and better guard your baluchistan or we will be seeing a new prime minister of baluchistan very soon.



Chief Minister Raisani is in charge of affairs there, and he reports to Federal Government. 

You can play your games there, but always remember that india faces a plethora of social unrest, secessionist groups, and disenfranchised. Two can play at these games. Look what happened to your friend "USSR" 

i hope you understood.


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## Xeric

Narad said:


> Mind your language. I have 1001 ugly words for you in my dictionary. If you wanna hear those, come see me personally.
> 
> If you want your presence felt, then make some meaningful argument and if you cannot think of anything meaningful then better keep your mouth shut.



Oho...why dont you pose the same limitations on your way of discussion? i bet you need it more!

i was just showing you the mirror, oopss it just broke!


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## ps80

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Islam not only demands that we treat people of other faiths/beliefs with respect



To all PDF members,

I believe this is a basic requirement of all religions. Irrespective of religion, this should be a basic trait of all human beings. 

Kindly avoid using insulting words like "mug" "dog" "dumbhead" "stupid" etc.


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## Xeric

Narad said:


> You are sick and I pity your condition.



Guud to see you relaxing!

Keep it up, it helps, go get a glass of water.

Now back to topic, shall we?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Narad said:


> I guess he personally told you all this stuff in your ears and that is why no one got to hear this anywhere before.



worthy watch

(indian source)

NDTV News Modi Given 3 Days To Hindus To Kill Muslims In Gujarat - Filestube Video Search


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## Naradmuni

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> are you obtuse? How does that benefit Kashmiris, who are wanting independence ---some of whom are actually calling for TOTAL independence and a new country.



Kashmir is returning to normalcy now thanks to the internal turmoil in pakistan. The rise in insurgencyin kashmir like in punjab was strictly due to pakistans active participation. India will make sure that pakistan is kept occupied in its internal issues and would use its political and economic clout in pakistan and afghanistan (Lathi). It has already begun to do so with its vigorous involvement in Afghan and pakistans tribal areas and baluchistan. If you already dont know, there has been not a single terrorist attack in India since over a year now and this is a significant development. On the other hand there are nearly 2 bomb blasts in pakistan on dialy basis. This suggests that all card are falling in right places. Once baluchistan is balkanised then there is very little of pakistan left to deal. This is the current strategy being implemented by Indian establishment.


----------



## ps80

xeric said:


> The 'english' is self-explanatory, do the _kasht_ and read it out loud when you search it up, it would definitely help.
> 
> Tiers, hierarchy, classification, demarcation, caste etc is not part of Islam when it comes to measure the worth of a *living being*! It is simple as that.



Thank you. I will.

Does your reference to 'living being' include non-Muslims?


----------



## Hulk

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> are you obtuse? How does that benefit Kashmiris, who are wanting independence ---some of whom are actually calling for TOTAL independence and a new country.
> 
> your so-called "lathi" is bearing no fruit for majority of your population, most of which is below poverty line and living in most abject conditions
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have a copy of his itinerary. He can ask for more personal cheques --which arent even going to national exchequer. So it makes no difference to us.
> 
> 
> 
> it makes no difference......they are from Kashmir and bred there. We give them very little support actually. But we dont place them under house-arrest every time the freedom-marchers walk the streets of Sri Nagar waving Pakistani flags
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chief Minister Raisani is in charge of affairs there, and he reports to Federal Government.
> 
> You can play your games there, but always remember that india faces a plethora of social unrest, secessionist groups, and disenfranchised. Two can play at these games. Look what happened to your friend "USSR"
> 
> i hope you understood.



The percentage of people asking for independence or merger with Pakistan is less then 10%. Rest wants to stay with India.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Kashmir: Battle Over a Graveyard​*


> A new controversy has broken out in the Kashmir valley where the residents of a village in north Kashmir are accusing the Army of bulldozing a graveyard to make way for a camp. The Army has denied this saying they were just demining the area.
> 
> *Owais Ahmad is in a deep shock. He cannot locate the grave of his father who was buried eight years ago, because last week army bulldozers reportedly leveled a portion of the graveyard to make space for a camp in this north Kashmir village, Zachaldara, in Kupwara. *
> 
> "My fathers grave was here and they bulldozed it," said a shocked Owais.
> 
> But the Army says it was demining the area, including the graveyard, and claims no desecration of graveyard has taken place.
> 
> The police back the Army claim, saying they had requested them to demine the area. "We were also requesting the authorities to demine this whole area,'' said Rafiq Ahmad Vakil, SP Handwara.
> 
> The Army has mined the area around its camp to prevent militant attacks, but after protests since last week, the Army has promised to vacate the graveyard. The people also want the army to vacate the local school and also a mosque courtyard.




article available here:

Kashmir: Battle over a graveyard


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## Xeric

Narad said:


> Kashmir is returning to normalcy now thanks to the internal turmoil in pakistan. The rise in insurgencyin kashmir like in punjab was strictly due to pakistans active participation. India will make sure that pakistan is kept occupied in its internal issues and would use its political and economic clout in pakistan and afghanistan (Lathi). It has already begun to do so with its vigorous involvement in Afghan and pakistans tribal areas and baluchistan. If you already dont know, there has been not a single terrorist attack in India since over a year now and this is a significant development. On the other hand there are nearly 2 bomb blasts in pakistan on dialy basis. This suggests that all card are falling in right places. Once baluchistan is balkanised then there is very little of pakistan left to deal. This is the current strategy being implemented by Indian establishment.



So you accept that india has been playing dirty?

i wish your PM can develop the same level of integrity and say the same thing out loud!

i am surprised that you didnt feel an iota of shame while you aired your dirty laundry and declared here in public that india have been involved in mischief within Pakistan?! Amazing!

Pakistan wants peace in its neighborhood and that's why it has been always trying to a lower profile and dont finger the 'spoiled brat' so that it may back fire and jeopardize peace in the entire region. Unfortunately it is india that has poked its nose just everywhere around its circumference and made the entire region into a boil!

Is this what we and the world should expect from the largest 'democracy' and the highest flag bearer of secularism? So you accept that aggression and trespassing is in the india blood, right?

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## Xeric

ps80 said:


> Thank you. I will.
> 
> Does your reference to 'living being' include non-Muslims?



What exactly do you want to listen?!

Perhaps a more spicy reply, i guess?

The sole purpose of using the phrase 'living-being' was to include every breathing and growing thing on this planet.

i'll again suggest that you should not over-load your common sense and refrain from the 'thing' that you are up to by trying taking me for a walk.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

indianrabbit said:


> The percentage of people asking for independence or merger with Pakistan is less then 10&#37;. Rest wants to stay with India.



i'm afraid you will need to post some surveys, articles, personal accounts and the whole works -if you really want me/us to believe this ridiculous statement of yours




Narad said:


> Kashmir is returning to normalcy now thanks to the internal turmoil in pakistan. The rise in insurgencyin kashmir like in punjab was strictly due to pakistans active participation. India will make sure that pakistan is kept occupied in its internal issues and would use its political and economic clout in pakistan and afghanistan (Lathi). It has already begun to do so with its vigorous involvement in Afghan and pakistans tribal areas and baluchistan. If you already dont know, there has been not a single terrorist attack in India since over a year now and this is a significant development. On the other hand there are nearly 2 bomb blasts in pakistan on dialy basis. This suggests that all card are falling in right places. Once baluchistan is balkanised then there is very little of pakistan left to deal. This is the current strategy being implemented by Indian establishment.




Goodness gracious me. Well at least you're being honest and open about it. Yes Pakistan is seeing a period of violence, a lot of it funded and facilitated by the enemies of our country. 

"Balkanization" of Baluchistan seemed more likely years ago. Now the problems are being addressed, media is playing good role ; as is the Government and the Army.

You say there is no terrorism in your hindoostan. Pray tell me, naxalites are existing in more than half of india --and their attacks are becoming more brazen and more sophisticated


Maoists call for shutdown, burn buses in south Orissa - India - The Times of India

fullstory

Maoists blast school building | Siasat

fullstory

The Hindu : Andhra Pradesh News : Sarpanch killed by Maoists

fullstory

fullstory

Maoists kill three CPI(M) members in Lalgarh | Siasat

fullstory

Five container bombs, detonators seized in Bihar | Siasat

fullstory

Now, Maoists blow up community hall - Ranchi - City - The Times of India

fullstory

Maoists blow up railway station, tracks, utility structures in Jharkhand - India - The Times of India

12 injured as train derails after Maoists blast track in Jharkhand - India - The Times of India



these are just from the past month or so.....Many more where that came from, but I would imagine since PM Singh and mr. chidambaram themselves admit Naxal threat as "single biggest threat" --you would be somewhat awares!

i'm just surprised that indians have this mentality that bomb blasts, sabotage and killings are not considered "terrorism" unless it has some affiliation to Pakistan.

your naxals and ULFA have killed more people than anybody else --and those are all homegrown in india


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## ps80

xeric said:


> What exactly do you want to listen?!
> 
> Perhaps a more spicy reply, i guess?
> 
> The sole purpose of using the phrase 'living-being' was to include every breathing and growing thing on this planet.
> 
> i'll again suggest that you should not over-load your common sense and refrain from the 'thing' that you are up to by trying taking me for a walk.



 Don't worry I am not up to any such 'thing'. Regarding a 'spicy reply'...let it come, I have a big patience to read that as well. Perhaps, we can learn from each other through a healthy discussion.

What I can assure 100% is that I will never over load my common sense and will not use any insulting words against any other forum members.


----------



## Xeric

ps80 said:


> Don't worry I am not up to any such 'thing'. Regarding a 'spicy reply'...let it come, I have a big patience to read that as well. Perhaps, we can learn from each other through a healthy discussion.
> 
> What I can assure 100% is that I will never over load my common sense and will not use any insulting words against any other forum members.



Guud for you!

BTW, did you search why i asked you to do?

Before we start a healthy discussion i would like that the other guy should have atleast some background knowledge on the stuff, otherwise it gets a bit kinky, dont you think?

Apart from this, please open up a new thread on the Islam Vs Equality and i'll love to help you out there. Feel free to ask any question, you may use the PM service


----------



## ps80

xeric said:


> Guud for you!
> 
> BTW, did you search why i asked you to do?
> 
> Before we start a healthy discussion i would like that the other guy should have atleast some background knowledge on the stuff, otherwise it gets a bit kinky, dont you think?
> 
> Apart from this, please open up a new thread on the Islam Vs Equality and i'll love to help you out there. Feel free to ask any question, you may use the PM service



You got me wrong, buddy!!

I respect all religions b/c my religion teaches me so. I have no intention to start any "Islam Vs. ****" thread. I beleive all religions are great, and this A Vs. B thing is a sheer waste of time and energy. 

My whole point was just to bring forward the hypocrisy that we all possess, intentionally or un-intentionally. We usually talk so many nice things about our religions/cultures and then do exactly opposite to the tenets/teachings of our religions/cultures. Bad-mouthing, name-calling, and insulting words are a few examples that I have seen on this forum.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

you can report posts you find offensive, they will be reviewed


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## EjazR

And another thread derailed.........

After this post *http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...miri-shia-muslim-procession-2.html#post599681*; it was clear that even in J&K including Srinagar Muharram processions are being allowed. It was only in a specific area that they were'nt allowed.

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## Hulk

EjazR said:


> And another thread derailed.........
> 
> After this post *http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...miri-shia-muslim-procession-2.html#post599681*; it was clear that even in J&K including Srinagar Muharram processions are being allowed. It was only in a specific area that they were'nt allowed.



thx Ejaz for clarifying.


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## PlanetWarrior

SSGPA1 said:


> Yes I blame the Indian Hindus because they are the occupying force who have Mufti playing to their tunes. When you don't have a response then you talk about the condition Hindus in Pakistan like a numb nut ... Indian Occupied Kashmir is a disputed territory, all of these issues are because of your occuping forces ... get out of Kashmir and let them live like humans ...
> 
> and always remember that Pakistani Hindus are far better off than the Indian Muslims!!



Well you need to learn about the constitution of India and the powers of a CM. Ours is a functioning constitution which is not suspended every 5 years or so by a military takeover so it is quite clear in its interpretation buddy. Al your talk about a "Mufti" is just hype. 

Hindus in Pakistan and other minorities are "well treated" huh? I will not post the multiple links but just go ahead and google this topic "persecution of minority religions in Pakistan" and check for yourself how well you treat your minority religions out there. 

Get out of Kashmir? Try taking a lead on your own advice. Inasmuch as I disagree with India's occupation of Kashmir , I hate the fact that Pakistan greedily eyes Kashmir for its own objectives whilst denouncing Indian occupation of a portion of Kashmir. So just to amend your motto , may I add that both Pakistan and India should get out of Kashmir ?

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## Icarus

s90 said:


> India-Pakistan would have to agree on current cease fire bounderies because both sides wont be ever giving up on claims, as for Geelani *sigh* no comments.



An unlikely scenario, unless there is some type of understanding between the two nations which is again, an unlikely scenario.


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## Icarus

Panditji said:


> You guys are funny!
> 
> For you whole channels streaming stuff incriminating Pakistan for the trouble in Kashmir are partisan, Indian propaganda blah blah. Yet you post these two-bit youtube clips, and expect people to honor them as true, unbiased public opinion.
> 
> Yes - for you, convenience and support to the 'cause' are the criteria to support or denounce any evidence. Ostriches choose to bury their head in sand just on these two criteria.



If you still believe that majority of Kashmiris DO NOT want to join Pakistan then I am sorry to say you are living in Fool's Paradise Central......................


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## EjazR

*http://www.dailykashmirimages.com/i...i-discharged-from-skims&catid=1:news&Itemid=2*
Srinagar, Dec 29: Twenty five days after he was brutally attacked by unidentified assailants, senior separatist leader Fazal Haque Qureshi was discharged today from the hospital.
Having narrowly escaped the assassination bid some 25 days back, Qureshi, after being discharged from SKIMS Soura where he was operated upon for critical head injuries, has refused to take security cover. He also declined the government&#8217;s offer of a residential place within the security zone, local news agency KNS reported.
On December 04, Fazal Haque Quresi was shot at outside his residence in Soura when he was returning from a mosque after &#8216;Maghrib&#8217; prayers. He was immediately rushed to hospital where his condition remained critical for over a week, during which he was operated upon for head injury.
Today Qureshi was finally discharged from the hospital.
KNS quoted SKIMS Director Dr. Abdul Hamed Zargar as saying that the separatist leader is comparatively better now, although he is still weak, which will go away with proper medication and diet.
*Meanwhile, the news agency quoted Qureshi&#8217;s close friend and aide Mussadiq Aadil as saying that the senior separatist has declined the government&#8217;s offer of a security cover.*
--------------
Pretty brave of him I must say. But I guess he doesn't want to give hypocrites like Geelani an opportunity to start labeling him "Indian agent".

Although its quite possible that LeT or Hizb affiliated cowards might try attacking one of the pro-dialogue leaders again.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

PlanetWarrior said:


> Hindus in Pakistan and other minorities are "well treated" huh?



yes there have been un-toward incidents in Pakistan....nobody can deny that, unless they are idiots.

but if you look at the reforms that have taken place, and the power of the media which addresses these issues --you will know that they are much fewer in number

incidentally, far larger numbers of minorities have been killed in india than in Pakistan......Sikhs, Muslims and Christians have all faced tragedies there -and on HUGE level




> I will not post the multiple links but just go ahead and google this topic "persecution of minority religions in Pakistan" and check for yourself how well you treat your minority religions out there.



yes, of course.

But do the same for india....

US body accuses India of failing to protect minorities

Amnesty International urges India to protect minority Christians | Persecution Update India




> Get out of Kashmir? Try taking a lead on your own advice. Inasmuch as I disagree with India's occupation of Kashmir , I hate the fact that Pakistan greedily eyes Kashmir for its own objectives whilst denouncing Indian occupation of a portion of Kashmir. So just to amend your motto , may I add that both Pakistan and India should get out of Kashmir ?



a plebicite should be offered.....read Pakistan's official stance on the issue. We treat it as disputed territory

indians official stance is that its "integral part of india"


(for whatever that's worth)




so until the issue is solved, indians are out of their mind, and out of touch with reality if they think we will ever back down from this issue. It is ingrained in the lives of every man, woman and child of this country.

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## notsuperstitious

"incidentally, far larger numbers of minorities have been killed in india than in Pakistan......Sikhs, Muslims and Christians have all faced tragedies there -and on HUGE level"

More hindus were murdered in Pakistan in one single tragedy of 1971.

Besides, coming back to the topic, Ejazr already clarified that muharram processions were allowed everywhere in India except potential trouble spots, and the trouble makers managed to make trouble in srinagar - surprise surprise. so wasting so many words ranting abt india was just as useless as repeating in every post how kashmir is your lifesource etc etc. sounds like 'aal iss well'!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

fateh71 said:


> "incidentally, far larger numbers of minorities have been killed in india than in Pakistan......Sikhs, Muslims and Christians have all faced tragedies there -and on HUGE level"
> 
> More hindus were murdered in Pakistan in one single tragedy of 1971



and what about Muslims killed by hindus during the same period 




> Besides, coming back to the topic, Ejazr already clarified that muharram processions were allowed everywhere in India except potential trouble spots, and the trouble makers managed to make trouble in srinagar - surprise surprise. so wasting so many words ranting abt india was just as useless as repeating in every post how kashmir is your lifesource etc etc. sounds like 'aal iss well'!



i was just reporting the news......

who are the "trouble makers" ? This incident involved people in the halted procession engaging in some scraps with indian police


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## Hulk

@Abu
About more people in minorities getting killed in India being compared to Pakistan is not a fare comparison.
You have less then 1&#37; minorities, and it is human psychology that when weak people keep do not protest as much.
In India Muslims are in huge number, I do not know what criteria is used to call them minority but they are neither small nor weak. So often riots are stared by them as well, so cannot put the blame entirely on Hindus (not justifying, but Godhra happened before Gujarat). Do you have a minority that can fight with rest, absolutely not, they will be butchered. 

I also wants to know what was population of Hindus in current Pakistan before partition, if the number was more then 10% then why it is low now. Is it because they could not trust you for security?


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## notsuperstitious

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> and what about Muslims killed by hindus during the same period



You mean that indian order to indian soldiers and their razakar collaborators to kill all muslims in east pakiistan in 1971? Yeah, you got me there.

Though nice to know moharram processions in india were largely peaceful except the routine paid tamasha in sri nagar. sorry to hear that in pakistan occupied kashmir though peaceful shias were bombed and so many killed and maimed.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

indianrabbit said:


> @Abu
> About more people in minorities getting killed in India being compared to Pakistan is not a fare comparison.
> You have less then 1% minorities, and it is human psychology that when weak people keep do not protest as much.
> In India Muslims are in huge number, I do not know what criteria is used to call them minority but they are neither small nor weak. So often riots are stared by them as well, so cannot put the blame entirely on Hindus (not justifying, but Godhra happened before Gujarat).



well, there were a lot of demographic changes after partition...whats done is done.

Focus on status quo. According to indians, they are secular and democratic.




> Do you have a minority that can fight with rest, absolutely not, they will be butchered.



there have been incidents of discrimination....but overall, they have nothing to "fight" about

Sindh Province has its share of hindu farmers.....they are quite self sufficient and lead satisfied lives...at least based on what i have seen during my rare visits to that side of the country




> I also wants to know what was population of Hindus in current Pakistan before partition, if the number was more then 10% then why it is low now. Is it because they could not trust you for security?



some migrated to other countries for their own personal reasons....some embraced Islam.

As you are aware, consensus on actual numbers of hindus (or any group) in Pakistan is difficult to quantify. 

We even used to have Jews in Karachi at one point....I guess they made "Aliyah" to israel ... who knows


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## Abu Zolfiqar

fateh71 said:


> You mean that indian order to indian soldiers and their razakar collaborators to kill all muslims in east pakiistan in 1971? Yeah, you got me there



no, i am referring to mobs of hindus from west bengal trained to massacre Muslims; or anybody who spoke even vaguely in favour of Pakistan

get your head out of your ***, your sarcasm fails to amuse




> Though nice to know moharram processions in india were largely peaceful except the routine paid tamasha in sri nagar.



explain?



> sorry to hear that in pakistan occupied kashmir though peaceful shias were bombed and so many killed and maimed.



also unfortunate....i hope the culprits are caught. Pakistan/Kashmiris stand behind those whose lives were lost.


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## Hulk

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> well, there were a lot of demographic changes after partition...whats done is done.
> 
> Focus on status quo. According to indians, they are secular and democratic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> there have been incidents of discrimination....but overall, they have nothing to "fight" about
> 
> *Sindh Province has its share of hindu farmers.....they are quite self sufficient and lead satisfied lives...at least based on what i have seen during my rare visits to that side of the country*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> some migrated to other countries for their own personal reasons....some embraced Islam.
> 
> As you are aware, consensus on actual numbers of hindus (or any group) in Pakistan is difficult to quantify.
> 
> We even used to have Jews in Karachi at one point....I guess they made "Aliyah" to israel ... who knows



So when you do not have comparable minority, who can stand up to the rest, you cannot compare to situation in India where minority is equally aggressive.

Come visit India and show me which area of India has Muslims, who are not living safe life. Forget about riots, both parties should be equally blamed, I cannot understand this when 2 people fight only one is blamed.
Muslims are no saints when it comes to riots, these Bajrang dal and VHP only came in light in last 2 decades.

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## notsuperstitious

> no, i am referring to mobs of hindus from west bengal trained to massacre Muslims; or anybody who spoke even vaguely in favour of Pakistan
> 
> get your head out of your ***, your sarcasm fails to amuse



ok i removed the cap. btw,difference of opinion. basically that tall faith based claim 'incidentally, far larger numbers of minorities have been killed in india than in Pakistan......Sikhs, Muslims and Christians have all faced tragedies there -and on HUGE level' has been called out. just a blatant lie. very popular indeed, why not, faith is.



> explain?



Explained by ejazr. all that lecture abt indian freedom to practice religion etc etc, thanks but no thanks. ahmadis in pakistan could use it more.



> also unfortunate....i hope the culprits are caught. Pakistan/Kashmiris stand behind those whose lives were lost.



Yes, but still a sad commetary on the state of affairs in pakistan where poeple are blown to bits only for following their religion every year that day and then all unite and stand behind those who died. and then common people go back to their routine lives and protest outside faridkot that ajmal kasab does not exist and is surely not from faridkot. the tremendous love for terrorists and hate fo them at the same time, sure why not, lets stand behind those who died y'day too. its easy.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

indianrabbit said:


> So when you do not have comparable minority, who can stand up to the rest, you cannot compare to situation in India where minority is equally aggressive..



okay.....hand us over indian punjab and we will integrate the Sikhs

If any problems arise, I will sing the indian national anthem and post it on youtube


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## DesiGuy

indianrabbit said:


> So when you do not have comparable minority, who can stand up to the rest, you cannot compare to situation in India where minority is equally aggressive.
> 
> Come visit India and show me which area of India has Muslims, who are not living safe life. Forget about riots, both parties should be equally blamed, I cannot understand this when 2 people fight only one is blamed.
> *Muslims are no saints when it comes to riots, these Bajrang dal and VHP only came in light in last 2 decades.*





Love this sentence.


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## hembo

*Srinagar locals offer prayers for peace in New Year*
Fri, Jan 1 04:30 PM

Srinagar, Jan 1 (ANI): As the whole world celebrates the arrival of New Year 2010 with music and party, the locals in Srinagar here chose to pray for peace and harmony on Friday.

People offered prayers for a peaceful year ahead.

"We prayed that the New Year should be good for the people of Kashmir. There should be no strikes, conditions should remain good so that tourism remains unaffected," said Sajad Ahmad Bhat, a student.

Earlier on Thursday, the locals celebrated their New Year along with tourists in the open at Gulmar around sixty kilometers form here.

Music, dance, comic shows and crackers marked the celebrations on Thursday.

The authorities had decorated the Gulmarg to beckon the visitors.

"I am feeling good because I have never enjoyed snow before. I am really enjoying the natural beauty of Kashmir valley because my mom is born and brought up here, and I am first time here," said Pinki Sharma, a tourist from Mumbai.

Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah and his family enjoyed skiing at Gulmarg on Thursday.

Abdullah wished New Year 2010 to bring peace and prosperity to the state and development works in the troubled state will continue.

"We would expect to get more success in our programmes of development, political dialogue and of giving a new shape to the state," he said. (ANI)


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## Veer

SSG VIPER said:


> DUDE u guys dont respect UN and give them a right.Rest ur usual ranting sorry to say its called BULLSHIT
> FREE KASHMIR
> GREATER PAKISTAN



Going in the UN for a internal matter was mistake we have learn from past. UN does not say anything against the Afghanistan/Iraq invasion so do you support it?

Once for all Kashmir is the integral part of India let the innocent Indians/Kashmiris live with the peace.

World have seen what is the state of muslims in Pakistan Lashker E Jhangvi V/s Jundullah, sunni v/s shia, ahamediyas, bohras, baluch, pakhtoons

The genocide of bengali muslim in east pakistan is not distant past.

So let Pakistan and India live in peace and progress. Don't give crap as u care for Muslims. We are here to serve our Muslims.


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## Skywalker

Veer said:


> Going in the UN for a internal matter was mistake we have learn from past. UN does not say anything against the Afghanistan/Iraq invasion so do you support it?
> 
> Once for all Kashmir is the integral part of India let the innocent Indians/Kashmiris live with the peace.
> 
> World have seen what is the state of muslims in Pakistan Lashker E Jhangvi V/s Jundullah, sunni v/s shia, ahamediyas, bohras, baluch, pakhtoons
> 
> The genocide of bengali muslim in east pakistan is not distant past.
> 
> So let Pakistan and India live in peace and progress. Don't give crap as u care for Muslims. We are here to serve our Muslims.



Should I start telling about the insurgencies in India, say lets start from sikh movement.


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## mr42O



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## mr42O

another clip from kashmir day

QHC4XD3Y4fM[/media] - Indian Army Barbarity in Kashmir


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## mr42O




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## RAHUL INDIAN

*useless thread.... 
@mods:
I request the mods to plz delete this thread....*

got nothing to do with PKD...!!!!
and the purpose is only to point out the videos/photos showing India is bad light...
there can be two more threads created to compete with htis one..

a. Shame on Pakistan
b. Shame on China

and thousands of videos/photos posted to show things that portray badly these countries...... 

such threads have no use in themselves...they do not stand alone.....

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## Materialistic

This shows the real picture of whats goin on in Kashmir, a matter over which we have fought 3 wars and have nearly gone to war many times. Its about the life of millions of kashmiris and one of the biggest political issue of sub-continent, the basic point behind the race of arms in sub-continent and the oil in the fire of extremism in sub-continet. Its not about India or bashing India, its for kashmir and their sufferings so there is no point to remove this thread. 

And yeah there are several threads and have been which were solely built for the purpose to point on Pakistan or China and there were many to praise India which in no sense had anything to do with this site.So as were they entertained, this should also be kept going and open for comment.



> and the purpose is only to point out the videos/photos showing India is bad light...



These videos or pictures are not fake or any propaganda, they reflect the reality.Now if india has blood on it then its not the fault of the projection.


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## Hulk

What's big deal about this video, what else can be done at the time of fireing. There would have been others who might have taken care of the people fireing.


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## pakdefender

indianrabbit said:


> What's big deal about this video, what else can be done at the time of fireing. There would have been others who might have taken care of the people fireing.



ok fine , during firing they are taking cover but whats up with locking out your fellow colleague who is also taking fire!

Look at the video again between 0:10 to 0:20 first one guys slips and fumbles his way into the jeep then the next ( the trooper with the helmet ) tries to get in and the guy already in locks him out!! 

I suppose this is reason that every now and then we hear stories about indian soliders stationed in Kashmir turing their guns on either the Unit commander or their fellow colleagues.


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## Hulk

pakdefender said:


> ok fine , during firing they are taking cover but whats up with locking out your fellow colleague who is also taking fire!
> 
> Look at the video again between 0:10 to 0:20 first one guys slips and fumbles his way into the jeep then the next ( the trooper with the helmet ) tries to get in and the guy already in locks him out!!
> 
> I suppose this is reason that every now and then we hear stories about indian soliders stationed in Kashmir turing their guns on either the Unit commander or their fellow colleagues.


I saw the video again, here is what I found. The first one is not from army and possibly from police. He surely did a mistake probably did not knew someone was following him. Big deal, that is all you need to open a thread.


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## FreekiN

So what? All armies do this stuff.

deleted


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## DESERT FIGHTER

FreekiN said:


> So what? All armies do this stuff.
> 
> acvzSFn_ZHU[/media] - This is how the Pakistani army treats the Muslims



Are you indian?If not then i hope you knoe that PAKISTAN ARMY is not ther occupying and killing freedom fighters whom the WORLD and UN gives choice for freedom or to join PAKISTAN?
These animals aka filths supported by ------ a terrorist state from Kabul.

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## pakdefender

indianrabbit said:


> I saw the video again, here is what I found. The first one is not from army and possibly from police. He surely did a mistake probably did not knew someone was following him. Big deal, that is all you need to open a thread.



Well it is a big deal , I think the indian Army chief ( Lt Gen Lamba or whatever ) needs to see this before he makes plans of making war on Pakistan and China simultaneously. The indian Army is under a lot of stress and the cowardice and the unwillingness to fight shown by your soldier is this video just proves that.

Just by building a fake outlook of a 'super power' in the media and the net indian cannot hope to become one , you've got your work cut out and its best for the indian army chilef to not bluff and make himself look stupid especially when these are troops that you have to do the fight. Some getting beaten by Asamaese women and some hiding in a jeep.

PS: In the video there is an AK-47 lying on the ground , why no one bothered to pick it up or at least secure it ?


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## Hulk

pakdefender said:


> Well it is a big deal , I think the indian Army chief ( Lt Gen Lamba or whatever ) needs to see this before he makes plans of making war on Pakistan and China simultaneously. The indian Army is under a lot of stress and the cowardice and the unwillingness to fight shown by your soldier is this video just proves that.



thx for your advice, I could not find Ge Lamba but came to know Deepak Kapoor was currently leading the Army. I called him to give your advice, he told me that he likes cracking those kind of jokes because he found people here take it very seriously and lose sleep.
Finally he told me to tell you to chill out, as today he is also doing the same, he does not have any more jokes to share today.


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## pakdefender

indianrabbit said:


> thx for your advice, I could not find Ge Lamba but came to know Deepak Kapoor was currently leading the Army. I called him to give your advice, he told me that he likes cracking those kind of jokes because he found people here take it very seriously and lose sleep.
> Finally he told me to tell you to chill out, as today he is also doing the same, he does not have any more jokes to share today.



Ok , thanks for confirming that the indian army chief is a joker


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Rabbit i thiNk this time he will be worring about PAKISTAN AND CHINA.Repeating 48,62,65 and kargil all again in a single episode AGAIN.
Free KASHMIR
no offence

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## Hulk

pakdefender said:


> Ok , thanks for confirming that the indian army chief is a joker



you are welcome for more jokes, vist jokes.com.


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## Hulk

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Rabbit i thiNk this time he will be worring about PAKISTAN AND CHINA.Repeating 48,62,65 and kargil all again in a single episode AGAIN.
> Free KASHMIR
> no offence



He is still chilling out, do not worry.


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## Spitfighter

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Rabbit i thiNk this time he will be worring about PAKISTAN AND CHINA.Repeating 48,62,65 and kargil all again in a single episode AGAIN.
> Free KASHMIR
> no offence



That's funny because China left Pakistan high and dry during each of those wars  

Also, I think you forgot about '71!!  no offense


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## Ruag

Hmm... a bunch of Pakistanis celebrating a cowardly terrorist ambush on Indian military convoy.

Why am I not surprised?

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## Windjammer

Ruag said:


> Hmm... a bunch of Pakistanis celebrating a cowardly terrorist ambush on Indian military convoy.
> 
> Why am I not surprised?



A cry baby rant seems to have become a norm on this forum.

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## Ingis

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Rabbit i thiNk this time he will be worring about PAKISTAN AND CHINA.Repeating 48,62,65 and kargil all again in a single episode AGAIN.
> Free KASHMIR
> no offence



Oh yes! Please repeat 1948 when India captured 2/3rd of Kashmir.

Please repeat 1965 when Pakistan, despite much chest thumping, invaded India to capture Kashmir and ended up fighting for the defence of Lahore.

And if you won't mind, please repeat 1971 when India separated East Pakistan and also 1984 when India captured the entire Siachen Glacier from under Pakistan's nose.

Oh, and you want to repeat Kargil? Sure, be my guest. After all, we Indians never shy away from war unlike our neighbor in 1999

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## Windjammer

Ingis said:


> Oh yes! Please repeat 1948 when India captured 2/3rd of Kashmir.
> 
> Please repeat 1965 when Pakistan, despite much chest thumping, invaded India to capture Kashmir and ended up fighting for the defence of Lahore.
> 
> And if you won't mind, please repeat 1971 when India separated East Pakistan and also 1984 when India captured the entire Siachen Glacier from under Pakistan's nose.
> 
> Oh... and you want to repeat Kargil? Sure... be my guest. After all, we Indians never shy away from war unlike our neighbor in 1999


And this is how you celebrate.

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## ptldM3

I find this thread to be in poor tast. One can easily make a thread depicting Pakistanis in a bad light, yet the same Pakistani member that relish this childish behavior would be upset if the roles were reversed...

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## arya-hind

shame shame 





do you want to see more


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## arya-hind

wana more


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Ingis said:


> Oh yes! Please repeat 1948 when India captured 2/3rd of Kashmir.
> 
> Please repeat 1965 when Pakistan, despite much chest thumping, invaded India to capture Kashmir and ended up fighting for the defence of Lahore.
> 
> And if you won't mind, please repeat 1971 when India separated East Pakistan and also 1984 when India captured the entire Siachen Glacier from under Pakistan's nose.
> 
> Oh, and you want to repeat Kargil? Sure, be my guest. After all, we Indians never shy away from war unlike our neighbor in 1999



Hey fan boy THANKS FOR ADMITTING THAT YOU CAPTURED KASHMIR and voilated United nations charter proving yourself to be a terrorist supporting rogue state.
1965 LOL typically rant from an indian with no proof and no BRAIN?INDIA invaded PAKISTAN in 1965.And lost raan of kuch chawinda munabad rajhistan fort and HALF OF ITS AIRFORCE lol.SHAME
1971 a civil war in east pakistan(fighting whole bengal)supported by TERRORIST NATION and USSR still got thashed in AIREAL WAR.
1962 Chinese thrash india 
Wow what a SHAMEFULL history?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

arya-hind said:


> -jyJuipPk78[/media] - Lahore Sabzazar Police SHO beating & torturing young man in Public
> 
> shame shame
> 5IluSdORfcs[/media] - Controversial army beating video - Siyasyaat - Ejaz Haider on SAMAA TV
> 
> do you want to see more



LOL FAN BOY? see previous page the video u posted was army thrashing TALIBANS who u dearly support.SHAME a terrorism supporting state/








 SHAME SHAME








u want more SHAME??


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## Dark Angel

Windjammer said:


> A cry baby rant seems to have become a norm on this forum.



*Dude who started the stupid thread in the first place 

were u present there when the firing took place NO .....do u know where the militants were NO do u know weather those guys were caught in cross fire NO & still u have the guts to say such silly things man why do u wanna play the blame game and keep getting thrashed*


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## arya-hind

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Hey fan boy THANKS FOR ADMITTING THAT YOU CAPTURED KASHMIR and voilated United nations charter proving yourself to be a terrorist supporting rogue state.
> 1965 LOL typically rant from an indian with no proof and no BRAIN?INDIA invaded PAKISTAN in 1965.And lost raan of kuch chawinda munabad rajhistan fort and HALF OF ITS AIRFORCE lol.SHAME
> 1971 a civil war in east pakistan(fighting whole bengal)supported by TERRORIST NATION and USSR still got thashed in AIREAL WAR.
> 1962 Chinese thrash india
> Wow what a SHAMEFULL history?



kid 

ask form you grand father or father they will tell you the golden history today they have tears in eye when they see where is Pakistan going 

love peace brotherhood make any country strong 



but you don't understand


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Ruag said:


> Hmm... a bunch of Pakistanis celebrating a cowardly terrorist ambush on Indian military convoy.
> 
> Why am I not surprised?



You are right KASHMIRI mujahedeen are PAKISTANIS THANK YOU.
long live the mujahedeen free KASHMIR


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## Awesome

RAHUL INDIAN said:


> *useless thread....
> @mods:
> I request the mods to plz delete this thread....*
> 
> got nothing to do with PKD...!!!!
> and the purpose is only to point out the videos/photos showing India is bad light...
> there can be two more threads created to compete with htis one..
> 
> a. Shame on Pakistan
> b. Shame on China
> 
> and thousands of videos/photos posted to show things that portray badly these countries......
> 
> such threads have no use in themselves...they do not stand alone.....


The barbarity of Indian armed forces in Kashmir and the response they get is a perfectly valid thread.

I'm moving this to the Kashmir war forum.


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## FreekiN

Notice how you will never see brutality in the Pakistani military but in the police system it is normal. 

Probably the only one i know about is the one i posted which can be totally justified. Sorry that i posted that guys...


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## Honor

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> LOL FAN BOY? see previous page the video u posted was army thrashing TALIBANS who u dearly support.SHAME a terrorism supporting state/
> lQ6hwoxNJII[/media] - Pak rtrd general slaps stupid Indian journalist
> tRoBYd0owFg[/media] - Indian Brutality SHAME SHAME
> Fi6lLjnEpq8[/media] - Watch brutality of Indian Army in Kashmir Part1
> 4gFOqlCslZE[/media] - Indian Police Brutality in Bihar
> u want more SHAME??



Shame on India! India are so cheap!

Freedom to Kashmir

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## DESERT FIGHTER

arya-hind said:


> kid
> 
> ask form you grand father or father they will tell you the golden history today they have tears in eye when they see where is Pakistan going
> 
> love peace brotherhood make any country strong
> 
> 
> 
> but you don't understand



Actually my granpa tells us about our History and how indian sikhs and hindus were terrorising refugees who were coming to pakistan bcoz of the bro indian red cliff report.
And how muslim girls commited suicide bu jumping into wells.WE KNOW THAT.
My granpa also tells us how he and his 5 brothers fought and slayed terrorists in 1947.
Rest about 48,62,65 and kargil WORLD KNOWS about that,
Reguarding taliban terrorists I THANK INDIA.


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## Dark Angel

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Hey fan boy THANKS FOR ADMITTING THAT YOU CAPTURED KASHMIR and voilated United nations charter proving yourself to be a terrorist supporting rogue state.
> 1965 LOL typically rant from an indian with no proof and no BRAIN?INDIA invaded PAKISTAN in 1965.And lost raan of kuch chawinda munabad rajhistan fort and HALF OF ITS AIRFORCE lol.SHAME
> 1971 a civil war in east pakistan(fighting whole bengal)supported by TERRORIST NATION and USSR still got thashed in AIREAL WAR.
> 1962 Chinese thrash india
> Wow what a SHAMEFULL history?




*man what are u on dude,is this the history taught to u i think u guys need a major change in syllabus,well go wash u face so that u stop hallucinating

The Maharaja of Kashmir, Hari Singh, however, wanted to remain an independent principality and tried to avoid accession to either country. When British forces withdrew the state was invaded by Pashtun tribals from the North West Frontier Province (NWFP).

Fearing that his forces would be unable to withstand the assault, the Maharaja asked for Indian military assistance. India set a condition that Kashmir must accede to India for it to receive assistance. Whereupon the Government of India recognized the accession of the erstwhile princely state to India, and was considered the new Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir

Keep begging till the end of time all u get is to see the republic day parade *


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## Dark Angel

Honor said:


> Shame on India! India are so cheap!
> 
> Freedom to Kashmir




The word freedom dosent suite someone like u who has to take goverment permission even when it comes to take a poop .....Open ur eyes man ..oh sorry i forgot u cant do that


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## FreekiN

Dark Angel said:


> The word freedom dosent suite someone like u who has to take goverment permission even when it comes to take a poop .....Open ur eyes man ..oh sorry i forgot u cant do that



Well you guys gotta pay 5 rupees just to take a poop. And thats what we learned from Slumdog Millionaire. 

Epic.

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## Honor

Dark Angel said:


> The word freedom dosent suite someone like u who has to take goverment permission even when it comes to take a poop .....Open ur eyes man ..oh sorry i forgot u cant do that



Indian can poo anywhere! That's abuse of human right! We should have clear and fresh air for everbody.

China has more freedom than India. India stink and violate human rights!

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## mrwarrior006

> Shame on India! India are so cheap!
> 
> Freedom to Kashmir


shame on china
free tibet


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## mrwarrior006

> Well you guys gotta pay 5 rupees just to take a poop. And thats what we learned from Slumdog Millionaire.
> 
> Epic.



then u must also have learned tat slumdog becomes millionaire


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## mrwarrior006

I


> ndian can poo anywhere! That's abuse of human right! *We should have clear and fresh air for everbody.*
> 
> China has more freedom than India. India stink and violate human rights!



then wy dont u stop polluting earth

china the largest polluter of earth accounts 21&#37;


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## mrwarrior006

> Shame on India! India are so cheap!
> 
> *Freedom to Kashmir *



oly in dreams its either part of india or buffer but not in pakistan tats for sure


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## Honor

mrwarrior006 said:


> I
> 
> then wy dont u stop polluting earth
> 
> china the largest polluter of earth accounts 21%



Bro, China becomes the largest polluter as it is the largest country in the world. 

Australians are the largest polluter in terms of per pax

Your Indian PM stands on China side in gang against US!!!!!


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## Honor

mrwarrior006 said:


> oly in dreams its either part of india or buffer but not in pakistan tats for sure



I saw on the video how Indian treat ppl from Kashmir!!! India gained Kashmir by British lagacy


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## Ingis

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Hey fan boy THANKS FOR ADMITTING THAT YOU CAPTURED KASHMIR and voilated United nations charter proving yourself to be a terrorist supporting rogue state.



United Nations charter? Do you even know the definition of "charter"? Are you talking about UNSC Resolution 47? Go read the full text of Resolution 47 before raising that point and making a fool of yourself by calling it "charter". 



> 1965 LOL typically rant from an indian with no proof and no BRAIN?INDIA invaded PAKISTAN in 1965.And lost raan of kuch chawinda munabad rajhistan fort and HALF OF ITS AIRFORCE lol.SHAME



You talk about proof and then yourself talk non-sense. Go read about Operation Gibraltar and Operation Grand Slam before claiming India started the war. Go read about Asal Uttar, Ichogil Bund and Phillora. Go read what your own Pakistani historians, including Rasul Bux Rais, had to say about 1965 war. Go read any book on 1965 war written by a credible, neutral military historian. I am sure your Pakistani education enables you to read. 



> 1971 a civil war in east pakistan(fighting whole bengal)supported by TERRORIST NATION and USSR still got thashed in AIREAL WAR.



USSR? How the hell did USSR even enter the picture? Are you in a sound state of mind? And what "aireal" [sic] war are you talking about? Operation Chengiz Khan or the Battle of Boyra? 

Going by the quality of that reply, there is no point wasting my time here. But seriously, Pakistanis need to read some neutral books on 1965 war before getting so excited.


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## Ruag

Windjammer said:


> A cry baby rant seems to have become a norm on this forum.



Is that the best comeback you've got? Lol.

Yup... I'd rather tag myself as a cry baby than glorify a bunch of cowards who ambush their enemy. 

Even I can take pleasure by posting videos of fleeing and dying Pakistani policemen during the attack on Lahore Police Academy or the attack on Sri Lankan team. But I won't because there is a difference between a human being and a wild animal.


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## duhastmish

OH -another hate mongering thread ay ????

Pakistani showing how many problems are there in India. loool 

but only if these people realize pakistan is burning - being burned by its own people and hate mongers.

yeh may be india is fueling it ... but there are reasons for it ....
---------------

anyways - i hope there is peace all over the region. Kashmir is way more peaceful than a few years back.

but there is fire spreading in china minorities and pakistan. so save your house first - your roof is on fire. 

soldiers are brave all over the world- they deserve respect they are not fighting their own battle but just doing their duties. while risking their lives.


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## mrwarrior006

*@honor*


> I saw on the video how Indian treat ppl from Kashmir!!! India gained Kashmir by British lagacy



wat i thought hari singh gave it to us in 1948 and also i was told british left india in1947
from which legacy was pakistan created? 
do history check honor it would be better
and wy should kashmir go to pakistan plz xplain me one reason



> Bro, China becomes the largest polluter as it is the largest country in the world.
> 
> Australians are the largest polluter in terms of per pax
> 
> Your Indian PM stands on China side in gang against US!!!!


!

did i say anything *u were the one who wanted fresh air isnt it *



> I saw on the video how Indian treat ppl from Kashmir!!!



kashmiris are also india 
anyways should police treat speratist in special way i dont think so

anyways in india separatist leades still enjoy the freedom
tat no country can provide u know wat i am saying


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## Moorkh

> Muslims are no saints when it comes to riots, these Bajrang dal and VHP only came in light in last 2 decades.



correction, 
similar organizations have existed before independence too, in india. even heard of hindu maha sabha ? 

Akhil Bharatiya Hindu Mahasabha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

so hindu communal forces have been around for a long time.


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## DesiGuy

Moorkh said:


> correction,
> similar organizations have existed before independence too, in india. even heard of hindu maha sabha ?
> 
> Akhil Bharatiya Hindu Mahasabha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> so hindu communal forces have been around for a long time.





From the same article: it was founded to counter muslim league.


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## balbir pasha

Reacting strongly to remarks by &#8216;so-called Chief Minister&#8217; of Gilgit-Baltistan, India said Pakistan's actions regarding the area in the past few months cannot &#8216;camouflage&#8217; its &#8216;illegal occupation&#8217; of that part of Jammu and Kashmir which is "completely unacceptable".

"We have seen media reports regarding remarks of the so-called Chief Minister of Gilgit-Baltistan in which he said that Gilgit-Baltistan had become the 'fifth province' of Pakistan and henceforth had no connection to Kashmir," the official spokesman of the Ministry of External Affairs said in a statement here.

The entire state of Jammu and Kashmir is an integral part of India by virtue of its accession to India in 1947, he said. Any action to alter the status of any part of the territory under the "illegal occupation of Pakistan has no legal basis whatsoever, and is completely unacceptable," he said.

"Pakistan's actions regarding Gilgit-Baltistan in the past few months cannot camouflage its illegal occupation of part of the state of Jammu and Kashmir, nor can they hide the denial of basic rights to the people in that part for the past six decades," the spokesman said.

The newly-elected "Chief Minister" of Gilgit-Baltistan Mehdi Shah had said that the people of the area had decided their accession to Pakistan after getting freedom from 'Dogra rule' and now the region has become the fifth province of Pakistan and has no connection with Kashmir.

- Indian express

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## mr42O

hahaha India express..... go back were u come from lol

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## mr42O

6 province is Kashmir so get ready

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## Evil Flare

ok

We Agree for Referendum ...

Let the People Decide ..

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## balbir pasha

mr42O said:


> hahaha India express..... go back were u come from lol



This is formal reaction of Minsitry of External Affairs, India and not personal opinion of Indian Express


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## Skywalker

balbir pasha said:


> The King of Kashmir already decided to be with India. So it is and it would ever be.



keep dreaming.

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## Materialistic

Always tell your favorite half of the story, Who the hell was the King !! 
A traitor of his own land who took money and disappeared in the dust.

NEway, at that time it was left over to the people that they will decide where to merge with and majority will win, Pure Democracy. So, there is no question of King. Also, united nations had also accepted in 1947 or 48 and accepted that there should be a referendum and by demography kashmir goes to Pakistan, but India din't follow and UN din't bother as they had no personal interest attached to it otherwise India would have been bombed. hahahaa (laughing on UN)

And also it is India who is unlike Pakistan controlling the area by force and has 700,000 armymen their out of 1.13 million against the will of people/In contrast, Pakistan has brought there development, prosperity, Democracy and freedom to people. 

Now any wise person can understand whats illegal control of a land.

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## ice_man

balbir pasha said:


> The King of Kashmir already decided to be with India. So it is and it would ever be.



the nawab of junagadh & hyderabad decided to be with pakistan so should i also say that it is & it would forever be a part of pakistan???

i hate this indian drama that starts of every now & then about cheap bollywood statements by there general kapoor where he thinks he is a hero who can take on china & pakistan & destroy them both simultaneously! this is followed by such outlandish statements about gilgit & baltistan! 

i think indians need to relax & ACCEPT PAKISTAN AS A SOVERIGN COUNTRY!

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## EjazR

*Youths rally in Kashmir for return of Pandits: India Today*

For the first time since insurgency began in Jammu and Kashmir, a rally was held on Saturday demanding the return of Kashmiri Pandits to the Valley.

Kashmiri youth having no political background assembled at Pratab Park in Srinagar Lal Chowk, carrying placards that called for the return of the Pandits.

"There is a widespread sentiment among Kashmiri Muslims that Pandits should return. We have decided to give voice to the popular sentiment," said Jehangir Raina, a software engineer.

He said the campaign didn't have links with any political group. "Pain is pain, whether it is of Muslims, Jews or Hindus. We want to show solidarity with the Pandits who have suffered for years," Raina said.

The youths have named their organisation Restructuring Economic Assets and Social Obligations of the Nation, or REASON. The REASON, Raina said, was an advocacy group of young professionals and would take up various causes in public interest.

The group said a 30 minute sit-in would be organised on the first Saturday of each month to show solidarity with the Pandits. The group, however, opposed the demand of a separate homeland for the Pandits.

The state government, too, seems to be gearing up to facilitate the return of the Pandits. On Wednesday, chief minister Omar Abdullah approved the creation of 3,000 posts for unemployed migrants.

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## ice_man

Maddy2105 said:


> You can talk about referendum on Kashmir but not referendum on Baluchistan :p
> 
> Interesting how these Pakistanis feel for Kashmir i citizens and yet support all these terrorists who end up killing and terrorizing Kashmir. So much for your freedom fighters



what are you talking about was balochistan ever a disputed territory? and it joined pakistan itself in 1948! 

what does your statement mean _"Interesting how these Pakistanis feel for Kashmir i citizens and yet support all these terrorists who end up killing and terrorizing Kashmir." _

what you learnt this line on NDTV or STAR NEWS?? we are fighting terrorism not supporting it! don't listen to your media! & before you point fingers towards us look at the insurgency of the maoist in the northern states! 

stop this dram of india *"*************************"* man seriously stop indian filmy lines guys! be a bit more Manly


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## Awesome

Pakistan is ready for Plebiscite even in Gilgit-Baltistan. India is the only one that is afraid to ask Kashmiris what they want.

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## New Shivaji

Asim Aquil said:


> Pakistan is ready for Plebiscite even in Gilgit-Baltistan. India is the only one that is afraid to ask Kashmiris what they want.



India will conduct plebcisite provided pakistan *moves out all its troops from pakistan occupaied Kashmir including gilgit and Baltistan.*
I would like to hear when are you guys moving out the troops.

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## ice_man

balbir pasha said:


> Kashmir joined india in 1947.
> 
> Your so called "mujhahidden" kill common kashmiris as well.
> You are reaping what you sowed.
> 7 blasts a week in pakistan, man I think u are wise enough to understand *ASAL ME KON KISKA KAR RAHA HAI.... *



kashmir joined india in 1947 true but my friend like i said junagadh & hyderbad nawab's joined pakistan in 1947 before indian army entered & seized it by force!!! 

your army kills common citzens & rapes the women 






and as for kon kiski kaar raha hai look man you guys are the ones that keep crying kaay HUMARAI BHARAT MAA KO PAKISTAN BALADKAR KAAR RAHA HAI! so i am saying stop saying it! we never said anything and as for kon kis kii kaar raha hai so you are accepting india is behind the 7 blasts a day???

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## Windjammer

New Shivaji said:


> India will conduct plebcisite provided pakistan *moves out all its troops from pakistan occupaied Kashmir including gilgit and Baltistan.*
> I would like to hear when are you guys moving out the troops.



Get your facts right first, the Indian part is the occupied Kashmir, the rest is refered to as AZAD KASHMIR.
Ever wondered why there are always demos, strikes, abduction and killing and rapes etc etc taking place on daily basis in the Indian held Kashmir, where as Azad Kashmir is the most peaceful part on this side of the border. ? But i guess it takes high moral values to address this question.

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## ice_man

New Shivaji said:


> India will conduct plebcisite provided pakistan *moves out all its troops from pakistan occupaied Kashmir including gilgit and Baltistan.*
> I would like to hear when are you guys moving out the troops.



the deal was both sides withdraw their forces! & look don't go around in cricles all your layman questions have been asked & answered on this forum! go read the responses! don't waste the bandwith! search your questions on this forum & you will get a comprhensive debate!

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## New Shivaji

ice_man said:


> the deal was both sides withdraw their forces! & look don't go around in cricles all your layman questions have been asked & answered on this forum! go read the responses! don't waste the bandwith! search your questions on this forum & you will get a comprhensive debate!



Pls. check your UN resolutions , it clearly states pakistani troops to be moved out of Pak occupied kashmir not indian troops.

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## ice_man

New Shivaji said:


> Pls. check your UN resolutions , it clearly states pakistani troops to be moved out of Pak occupied kashmir not indian troops.



Nonsense, it clearly pointed out in the UNSC resolutions explained how the UNSC resolutions called for tripartite negotiations between India, Pakistan and the UN appointed commission/rapporteur on withdrawal. Subsequent resolutions completely rejected the irrational Indian demand of a complete unilateral Pakistani withdrawal, while India forces would remain in occupation of their share of the territory and possibly occupy the remainder.

In addition, the excuse that 'Pakistan should withdraw first' is just that, an excuse - India agreed to the fact that the dispute would be settled via UN held plebsicite, so what difference does it make whether Pakistan withdraws unilaterally or in conjunction with India? It was and is an excuse to avoid a plebsicite, and the UNSC correctly rejected even more directly it in subsequent resolutions.

The UNSC resolutions are clear on this point, India cannot pick and choose what it likes. Independence was not really an option for the Princely States in the rules of partition was it? So why would it be an option in the UNSC resolutions, that were largely based on the agreement on partition arrived at between the Congress, Muslim League and the British?

& if we are on this nonesense why don't you hand over Junagadh & Hyderabad! the reason why we will not withdraw from kashmir unilaterally is because we saw what india did with hyderabad! india would annex kashmir the same way! 

besides AZAAD KASHMIR is not a part of pakistan it has its own government!!!!

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## illuminatus

LOL Not even over our dead bodies. Indian crying won't change anything. On a different note, I hope Pakistan soon starts mega energy projects with China. We have great plans for our Gilgit Baltistan region. Stop us if you can. Occupied my foot. Gilgit Baltistan is the heartbeat of Pakistan and will always remain so.


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## illuminatus

Can a mod please move this Indian propaganda to another thread? Indians are polluting this forum with various fabricated propaganda in the wrong sections.

*Strategic discussion about Pakistan and its geo-political issues. Pakistan's importance in todays world and affairs related to its national security.*


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## illuminatus

balbir pasha said:


> This Thread is within the "Kashmir War" section. Stop arguing like a loser. Thanks.



There is no war in Gilgit Baltistan so get your facts right. Besides, this news comes from a biased Indian source so you need to shut up. I think we need to create a new propaganda section especially for the Indian cry babies.* I've reported this thread to the moderators.* Take your one-sided BS somewhere else. If you're looking for false hope and sympathy you won't get it here. I'm sure there are plenty of Indian forums out there where you can post this crap and get your satisfaction.


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## All-Green

Typical selective memory and deliberate misinterpretation.

U.N. Resolutions called for withdrawal of not only Pakistani troops from Kashmir but Indian troops as well.
However it called for a specific ratio of troops to be maintained in Kashmir by both sides till the referendum was concluded.
It was India which rejected the suggested troops as inadequate from Indian perspective, Pakistan did not object to these numbers.
For Pakistan to pull out whereas India was clearly not adhering to the troop numbers would have been utterly retarded.

If Indian government calls Kashmir its integral part and annexed Hyderabad and other such states against their former rulers wishes, then to call Pakistan as illegal occupant of Gilgit is quite a farce.

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## Bhushan

*Path to peace runs through Kashmir*
M J Akbar, Sunday January 03, 2010 

When was the last time you read the front of a Christmas card? This seasonal benevolence begs an intriguing question: Which comes first? Peace on earth or goodwill towards men?

Any Indian visitor to Pakistan will vouch for the genuine goodwill he finds. We are an emotional people; cricket is the perfect pitch for hostility since all its crises can be sorted out over a sumptuous dinner afterwards. But all the warmth between Indians and Pakistanis has not translated into peace between India and Pakistan. The relationship began with war over Kashmir within six weeks of birth because the two nations are founded on antagonistic concepts of nationalism.

*Pakistan is a child of the two-nation theory. This is not a matter of geography. Its premise is that Hindus and Muslims belong to separate nations. Jinnah reiterated a million times that living with Hindus was submission to Hindu tyranny and sneered at Maulana Azad when the latter insisted that a secular multi-faith state was not only possible, but desirable. This is the basis for every Pakistani&#8217;s conviction that the Kashmir valley is rightfully a part of Pakistan, and Indian rule in Srinagar is ruthless colonization.
*
*India has accepted the fact of Pakistan. It supported Pakistan&#8217;s membership of the United Nations even when Afghanistan opposed it. But India&#8217;s ideology cannot accept that there should be two nations because there are two faiths. Its Constitution and six decades of democratic experience say so. India&#8217;s ideology makes Kashmir as inviolable a part of India as Pakistan&#8217;s ideology makes it a part of Pakistan. Pakistan would not want Hindu-majority Jammu even if anyone offered it, since Pakistan is a Muslims-only state. Its Constitution forbids non-Muslims from becoming president or prime minister.*

Kashmiris have added a singular twist to this existential dilemma, with a three-nation theory. The progenitor of the concept of Kashmiri independence was not a Muslim: in 1947 Maharaja Hari Singh delayed accession to either state in the hope of acquiring a unique and separate status. Over time, and particularly after the marginalization of Kashmiri Pandits from the valley, independence has become a Kashmiri Muslim, rather than a Kashmiri, demand.

Where is the median point at which such conflicting aspirations meet or merge? The difficulty should be apparent to even the most optimistic goodwill-salesman. One of the three has to abandon a fiercely-held ideology, with attendant consequences.

Delhi seems to believe that the easiest negotiating space lies in the three-nation theory. It has set in motion, through the familiar ruse of committees, a virtual-nation option for Kashmir in the guise of autonomy. Islamabad would match Delhi&#8217;s rearrangement after a pre-arranged signal, and Kashmiris would be offered the substance of independence without the reality. Such a solution would be illusory without legal and Constitutional permanence. It would be vulnerable on disparate counts. Many Pakistanis would not see it as a solution, only as partial victory in the long haul to the full acquisition of Kashmir.

*This is certainly the declared objective of terrorist networks and their allies in government, who would be tempted towards greater violence. The Lashkar-e-Taiba and its friends are unlikely to sign any peace-on-earth deal with India. *There could also be a change of mood, or change of government, in Delhi. Nehru withdrew many of the commitments made in the Delhi Agreement with Sheikh Abdullah because they were incompatible with the federal structure and a potential threat to Indian unity. Fudge is inedible.

*The idea of Pakistan is being battered each day on the streets by guns and suicide bombers. A common faith could not prevent a revolution in Bangladesh, a revolt in Baluchistan, or, last week, the massacre of Shias. It would be interesting to find out through a poll whether Shias today feel more secure in Lucknow or Karachi. Pakistan&#8217;s Muslims created a separate country because they could not live with Hindus and Sikhs; today they are discovering that they cannot live with one another. The evidence is in front of us; the inference is too inflammatory to be uttered.*

The solution to Kashmir cannot lie in a failed theory. And Kashmiris surely appreciate that independence is not possible. *Perhaps this subcontinent needs one last touch of surgery. The price of Partition in Punjab and Bengal was horrific, but it brought peace. Six decades later, West Bengal has the highest density of Muslims among all states in India, and the strength of secularism has persuaded Bihari Muslims to migrate to Punjab. Kashmir was divided along the ceasefire line because Pakistan, in 1947, chose war over talks. If Pakistan insists on an ideological claim over the valley, there will be no peace. *If it can find space for pragmatism, Islamabad and Delhi can shake hands on a Happy New Year without needing to count their fingers afterwards.


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## Windjammer



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## Bhushan

*We Can Work It Out*
_G PARTHASARATHY, 3 March 2009_

Former Pakistan foreign minister Khurshid Kasuri's assertion that India and Pakistan had virtually reached agreement in 2007 to resolve the issue of Jammu and Kashmir was largely drowned out amidst public anger in the aftermath of the 26/11 attacks on Mumbai. It is acknowledged that proposals put forward by President Pervez Musharraf and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh were discussed in utmost secrecy during the course of around a dozen meetings in various parts of the world between Indian special envoy Satinder Lambah, a diplomat who has served for years in Pakistan, and Musharraf's trusted confidante, Tariq Aziz. With the details of the Lambah-Aziz "back channel" dialogue known to less than a handful of persons on both sides, the two negotiators succeeded in putting together a framework that was all but formally agreed upon by India and Pakistan. The Americans appear well informed about this diplomatic effort.

*In 2004, Musharraf called for "out of the box" thinking on J&K. He proposed that Jammu and Kashmir should be divided into seven regions, and for a process of "demilitarisation" of identified regions. He also called for "self-governance" in J&K and proposed "joint management" of the state. Manmohan Singh responded by stressing that while borders cannot be redrawn, we can move towards making them "irrelevant". He added that people on both sides of the Line of Control (LoC) should be able to move freely and trade with each other.*

While the exact contours of the framework then discussed were not known publicly, *Kasuri has confirmed there was agreement on harmonising the nature and extent of self-governance and devolution of powers on both sides of the LoC. Responding to Musharraf's proposal for "demilitarisation", India has indicated its readiness to reduce and redeploy forces in Jammu and Kashmir on a reciprocal basis, once it is convinced that there is an irrevocable end to infiltration across the LoC.*

*There was also agreement on the need for mechanisms and institutions to promote cooperation in areas like trade, travel, tourism, education, health, environment and water resources. It was Musharraf who pleaded his inability to translate the progress made into the conclusion of a firm agreement, as he claimed that in the wake of his declining political fortunes in 2007, he would be unable to secure domestic support for what had been agreed upon. Equally, it is a pity that the UPA government has not taken the opposition and Parliament into confidence, either publicly or confidentially, about what transpired on such a sensitive issue.*

Pursuant to these "back channel" negotiations there have been a series of measures in J&K to promote travel, trade and dialogue across the LoC. After five decades, people in Jammu and Kashmir now have facilities to travel across the LoC to meet friends and relatives. In the Kashmir valley, a bus service has been instituted between Srinagar and Muzaffarabad and in the Jammu region, between Poonch and Rawalkot. Five crossing points have, in addition, been opened to enable people to meet friends and relatives across the LoC. Trade across the LoC has been permitted for the first time, with goods carried by trucks on the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad road.

There are also proposals under discussion to establish bus links between Jammu and Sialkot in the Jammu region and between Kargil and Skardu, linking the valley of Kashmir with the northern areas, under Pakistan's control. There are, however, misgivings that despite the new openings for trade and travel, the procedures for such cross LoC links are so cumbersome and restrictive that people in J&K find permission to travel either delayed, or effectively denied.

Discarding its earlier policy of pretending that its Hurriyat proteges were the authentic representatives of the people of the state, Pakistan invited mainstream political leaders like Omar Abdullah and Mehbooba Mufti. India invited veteran Muslim Conference leader Sardar Qayyum Khan and a Track II dialogue was facilitated between politicians and civil society representatives from both sides of the LoC. This is important because there is no consensus within J&K on what constitutes a framework for "self-governance". Unrealistic and maximalist demands for "autonomy" from sections in the Kashmir valley show little realisation of reality. As even the European parliament has noted, representative and empowered institutions hardly exist in Azad Kashmir and in the northern areas.

*In the prevailing political turmoil in Pakistan, there is little prospect of the government there agreeing to carry forward the process that Musharraf put on hold in 2007. But, New Delhi has to make it clear that any future dialogue on J&K can only be on the basis of what was agreed upon in the Lambah-Aziz talks. *When Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was hanged, General Zia tried to renounce the Simla Agreement. Musharraf similarly sought to disown the Lahore Declaration signed by prime ministers Atal Bihari Vajpayee and Nawaz Sharif.

With its international standing dented by its support for terrorism, Pakistan's credibility will further suffer if it disowns what transpired in addressing the issue of J&K over the past five years. But a meaningful dialogue on such issues will be possible only after Pakistan acts to bring to justice those responsible for the 26/11 carnage, and to dismantle the ISI's infrastructure of terrorism.

_The writer is a former high commissioner to Pakistan. _


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## sherdil76

_From Christina Palmer & Ajay Mehta in New Delhi and Nandita Bhat in Udhampur_

*Army Chief seeks help from Home Minister Chidambaram after soared ties with Defence Minister Home Affairs Ministry purchases bulk of contraceptive manufacturing machines Condom making machines being installed at battalion headquarters across border areas Both male, female soldiers developing serious diseases due to unsafe sex practices Special team of IAMC gynecologists rushes to Military hospitals in Kashmir region to handle situation*

New Delhi - The first battalion of Indian army that actually comprises sex workers, recruited from relight areas across India with the help of RAW and posted as Border Guards in the occupied Kashmir by Indian army in September 2009, with aims to provide fun to soldiers in the area who were constantly committing suicide, is now reported to be suffering from some serious medical problems due to unsafe sexual activities while at least 63 out of the total 178 female soldiers, posted under Northern Command in September last, are reported t have been tested positive in the pregnancy tests, carried out at military hospitals while many male soldiers have also been diagnosed with serious sex related diseases, reveal the investigations of The Daily Mail.
The Daily Mails investigations reveal that the problem started occurring when in the month of December a large number of female soldiers started reporting SIQ (Sick-In-Quarter) at different formations with complaints of minute illness like vomiting and headaches. However, as the number of complaints in this direction started rising dramatically, the patients were referred to Military Hospital at Badamibagh cantonment in Srinagar. At Srinagars Military Hospital, after different tests, it was found that the female soldiers sent there from different formations were mostly suffering from no disease but were found to pregnant while a few others were treated for different unsafe-sex related minor diseases. Captain Dr. Jyoti (name changes on sources request) of the IAMC (Indian Army Medical Corps), posted at the Military Hospital told The Daily Mail that at least 63 female soldiers, sent to the base hospital from different field units were tested positive in the pregnancy tests. It was something unusual that these women were found 8 to 10 weeks with pregnancy while they were not sent on leave since their posting some 12 to 14 weeks back. Similarly some other 38 were found having some minor diseases but these were sex related diseases that occur normally due to unsafe sexual activities and thus we reported the matter to the commandant of the hospital who forwarded the same to the high command, asserted Dr. Jyoti.
The Daily Mails findings indicate that the situation rang alarm bells in the Eastern Commands headquarters where an emergency meeting was held which, apart from others, was attended by Major General Harinder Singh, Commandant of the IAMC of Northern Command. Since the matter was of very serious nature, it was decided in the meeting that was held under the command of the Commander of the 14th corps to bring the matter to the notice of the Army Headquarters at New Delhi. The News arrived at Army Headquarters at New Delhi as a bomb because the headquarter was already suffering from a high profile controversy of land scams and the rift between Army Chief and Commander Eastern Command over the issue was at the peak and Defence Minister was in no mood to give any support to Army Chief Deepak Kapoor.
The Daily Mails findings indicate that since the project of posting sex workers in the disguise of female soldiers in Kashmir was initiated by the orders of General Deepak Kapoor without seeking any formal approval from the Defence Minister, the news cam as a big shock as General Kapoor was already at odds with the Defence Minister A.K Antony over the issue of corruption in sale of army lands. Our sources reveal that upon this, Army Chief held a classified meeting with his confidants and aides and also invited Director General of Armed Forces Medical Services Lt. General N.K Parmar. In the meeting, it was decided to dash a team of gynecologists from Delhi to Northern Command to tackle the situation on emergency, yet confidential basis. Upon this, a team of 9 gynecologists from IAMC was sent to Northern Command. The team performed the abortions upon some 56 soldiers while rest of the 7 were shifted to Udhampur-based military hospital as their cases were reported to be bit complicated and required some serious surgeries. The said team of Army Gynecologists, headed by Lt. Colonel. Bharti Sharma, not only treated the patients but also gave them tips to follow the safe sex practices. In the meanwhile, several male soldiers from the same region were also reported SIQ with sex related diseases.
The Daily Mails findings indicate that as the situation started worsening, the Army Chief General Kapoor contacted Lt. General. Raj Kumar Karwal, who was the head of the committee which recommended the posting of undercover sex workers in Kashmir to meet the natural requirements of the sex starving male soldiers. Sources reveal that General Karwal told General Kapoor that while following his committees recommendations, the recommendations, regarding the provision of safe sex devices like the condoms and educating the soldiers about safe sex practices were not followed at all as the committee had recommended that prior to the posting of sex workers amongst the ranks of soldiers, the soldiers must be provided with precautionary measures and should be given tips regarding the safe sex practices.
Sources revealed that upon this, General Kapoor, who had hopes of a support from Defence Minister Antony in this matter, decided to approach the Home Affairs Minister P Chidambaram. Upon contacting, Chidambaram promised general Kapoor of his all out support.
The Daily Mails findings indicate that hiding behind the notion of helping the Paramilitary forces, Chidambaram ordered the Home Affairs Ministry to procure condom making machines to be given to military and paramilitary authorities for installing at remote areas of deployment, particularly along the borders. According to a report, released by Indians State news agency Press Trust of India (PTI), Indian Government is procuring more than 1,000 units of condom vending machines to promote safe sex practices among its military and para-military deployed in far flung areas. 

The machines, the PTI reports further, for the men of forces like CRPF, CISF, SSB, ITBP, BSF and NSG will be installed at the battalion and sector headquarters of the forces, especially along the borders.

"A total of 1,080 machines are being procured by the Home Ministry. The idea is to promote safe sex practices amongst the soldier who are deployed at far off places for long durations," PTI reports, quoting a senior para-military officer. 

The PTI further reports that the Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) has been appointed as nodal agency by the Home Ministry for procurement of these machines as well as all health related purchase and activities. 

The condoms, to be provided through these machines, have been procured from different companies and would be provided to the soldiers free of cost but on rationing basis every month, concludes the PTI report.
The Daily Mails finding further indicate that the soldier of Indian army, posted in Indian Occupied Kashmir and other border areas of India often indulge into unsafe sexual activities including rapes and prostitution. While the complaints of rapes and gang rapes by Indian soldiers are fairly common in Kashmir valley, the border natives other regions are also constant victims of brutal forced rapes of women by the frustrating Indian soldiers. The female villagers along the either side of Indo-Myanmar border, Indo-Bangladesh border and Indo- Nepal border are often sexually assaulted by Indian soldiers while visiting the prostitution dens and opting for paid, yet unsafe sex is a common practice throughout the Indian Army and at many garrisons, Indian Army High Command has taken stringent measures to curb prostitution and have even displayed sign suggesting a ban on prostitution in the area. However the number of such incident had reached alarming limits and the Indian soldiers got into a severe trauma of sexual and mental frustration due to continuous bans on different recreational facilities by the top authorities and thus they started indulging into suicide practices and killing the colleagues as well. The Daily Mails findings indicate that adding to the miseries of soldiers in Kashmir, the Indian Army announced imposing a ban on use of mobile phones by soldiers, posted in the Occupied valley. These findings indicate that senior medical officers of the Indian armed forces believe that just engaging the sex workers under the grab of female soldiers was not enough to rid the soldiers of frustration and mental stress but the use of mobile phone by troops was also a permanent source of stress and strain for the soldiers, deployed in the occupied valley.
The problem is not the stress in the encounter, the problem is the cell phone and that should be banned, said Lt-General Dipankar Ganguly, speaking on the occasion of the 246th anniversary of the Army Medical Corps 
The top General said that cell phones allowed the soldiers to maintain regular contact with their families and get updated on their problems, which led to higher levels of stress among them. 
Armed Forces Medical Services Director General Lt-Gen N K Parmar, in his observation, said that the armed forces had taken a number of steps to tackle stress-related issues among the troops.
But, as reported earlier, armed forces continue to grapple with stress-related deaths in the shape of suicide and `fragging (to kill a fellow soldiers) cases. In 2008, for instance, there were 151 suicide and four `fragging cases in the three Services. 
While prolonged deployment in operations in Indian occupied part of J&K and North-East are exacting a heavy toll on the physical endurance and mental health of soldiers, they also undergo tremendous stress for not being able to take care of the problems facing their families back home. The problems could range from property disputes and harassment by anti-social elements to financial and marital problems. 
Soldiers, of course, also have to grapple with paltry salaries, lack of basic amenities, ineffectual leadership, humiliation at the hands of their officers, and the constant fear of being accused of human rights violations.
The Daily Mails findings further reveal that not just the soldier but a number of Indian Army Officers are working in the institution against their wills but as a bonded labour. These findings indicate that since the Officers sign a bond while joining the army under which they have to pay a huge amount of money to army in case of quitting the job, they do not dare to do so due to poor financial conditions but work with a dead heart after being posted to duties at stations like Kashmir. These findings indicate that even young female commissioned officers are no exception in this direction. These findings indicate that a female officer of the Indian Army committed suicide by shooting herself in Udhampur, headquarter of the army's Northern Command, a couple of years back as she was "dissatisfied and unhappy with her job". 

According to police and army officials in Udhampur, about 65 km north of Jammu, the 25-year-old officer Lt. Sushmita Chakravorty of 5071 ASC Battalion went to a guest house near her official quarters on Thursday evening and asked the sentry there for his rifle "as she wanted to get her photo with that". 

The unsuspecting sentry handed his weapon and in moments Lt. Chakravorty shot herself with it. She was shifted to the army hospital where she was declared brought dead. 

This was the first incident of its kind in Occupied Jammu and Kashmir of a female army officer committing suicide. 

The officer's mother Sadhana Chakravorty told media persons in Udhampur that Lt. Chakravorty had "unwillingly joined the army about 10 months ago". 

Lt. Chakravorty had returned from two months leave. "I came with her as she was feeling very low," her mother said. 

Sadhana told reporters that her daughter had become very short tempered soon after joining army and being posted in Kashmir "disillusioned with her present job". She wanted to quit the army but could not do so as "she had to pay the bond money to the army". 

"We had told her that the money could be arranged by selling off the house in Bhopal," Sadhana said. But Lt. Chakravorty did not agree to it "because she was concerned about her younger brother too who had just passed Class 12." 
The Daily Mails finding that the female members of the Indian Army have always been serving under very miserable conditions as they are often sexually harassed and abused by seniors at workplaces in the line of duty. These findings indicate that in most of the cases the female officers of the Indian army remain silent over the sexual assaults and sexual abuses by seniors because even if they report so, instead getting justice, they are always victimized even loose jobs.
The Daily Mails findings further indicate that just in July 2009, an army court martial ordered dismissal of a woman officer Captain Poonam Kaur, who a year back had accused her seniors of sexually harassing her, but her allegations were found false.

Kaur , in 2008 alleged that three officers of her unit, the Army Supply Corps (ASC) in Kalka, Haryana had physically and sexually harassed her and confined her illegally when she resisted their advances.

A court of inquiry (COI) had then been ordered to investigate the allegations of physical and mental harassment leveled by Capt Kaur against her superior officers.

She had accused three of her seniors, including her commanding officer, the units second-in-command and adjutant, a Colonel, Lt Col and a Major rank officer respectively, of harassing her over the past few months.

However, in an immediate reaction then, the army had denied the charges.

The court martial proceedings, which were initiated, against Capt Kaur, in its order at Patiala, have ordered her dismissal from service, which will be subject to confirmation by the Western Command chief, a process which may take two months, was the official announcement to conclude.

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## Nemesis

Thread reported for stupidity. Unacceptable crap which insults our fighting women in uniform.


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## Awesome

Yaar, this was a doomed experiment from the word get go. I only hope there are more idiots like these who thought of this idea in New Delhi for us to contend with. 

Indians need to improve their army recruitment methods and recruit higher caliber people who won't go around committing suicide just because they haven't had sex in a while. It's ridiculous. 

Also they should recruit real volunteers who should not be held forcibly on bond.

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## faithfulguy

Please post the source. Otherwise, it should be removed.


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## Nemesis

You actually believe that we would recruit prostitutes in the guise of a female battalion?


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## Awesome

Nemesis said:


> Thread reported for stupidity. Unacceptable crap which insults our fighting women in uniform.


You need to report it to the official news source if you think the story should be suppressed to not cause offence. Personally you need to write to your government for shady practices. THEY have hurt the image of your female soldiers, other than this 178 sex worker battalion.

The Daily Mail - Daily News from Pakistan - Newspaper from Pakistan

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## DaRk WaVe

gogbot said:


> you assholes will just post anything to satisfy your ego.



Look who's calling names ehh??

If you have got nothing to refute this, then stop calling names, you think your the one who can abuse here

we can also *f u c k i n g* abuse,if some Pakistani went bonkers then all Indians here will start crying & complaining like 10 year olds , so watch your words & read the article again..

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## faithfulguy

Why posting something that degrade others, especially women. Even if the source is legitimate and India is indeed doing this, there is no need to discuss this kind of topic on a defence and I support deletion of this thread.


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## Nemesis

> You need to report it to the official news source if you think the story should be suppressed to not cause offence. Personally you need to write to your government for shady practices. THEY have hurt the image of your female soldiers, other than this 178 sex worker battalion.



We would have complained if this story was true. 

This is a BS story which has no basis in reality. Except for this Christina palmer, no news media has even reported this. Obviously it is a concocted story of a India hater.


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## Awesome

gogbot said:


> you assholes will just post anything to satisfy your ego.


Ever heard of freedom of speech? However such demeanor is not welcomed here, if you can't take uneasy news, you're better off staying off this forum. You won't get another warning.


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## Awesome

Nemesis said:


> We would have complained if this story was true.
> 
> This is a BS story which has no basis in reality. Except for this Christina palmer, no news media has even reported this. Obviously it is a concocted story of a India hater.


Then that's your prerogative, and you may choose to declare it so, but it won't get deleted just because its not nice.


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## grey boy 2

Here you go;

The Daily Mail - Daily News from Pakistan - Newspaper from Pakistan

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## faithfulguy

Mod.. Out of the respect of a particular nationality. I would support deleting this forum. Having prostitutes categorized as an army battalion is not really a defence related topic and is degrading to people of the nation more than any other facts. Also, no useful discussion can come out of this topic. Everyone in this forum knows that I personally think India members brag too much. But this article is too insulting and should be removed. Thanks

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## Nemesis

> Then that's your prerogative, and you may choose to declare it so, but it won't get deleted just because its not nice.



Okay. Accepted. But then don't delete every anti Pakistan Times of India article that someone posts just because it's from the TOI.


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## DaRk WaVe

faithfulguy said:


> Mod.. Out of the respect of a particular nationality. I would support deleting this forum. Having prostitutes categorized as an army battalion is not really a defence related topic and is degrading to people of the nation more than any other facts. Also, no useful discussion can come out of this topic. Everyone in this forum knows that I personally think India members brag too much. But this article is too insulting and should be removed. Thanks



hey you listen to me every now & then Indians here bring in the "rape cases" in threads where there is absolutely no need of it

Every now & then they post old articles about Rapes(which havent been proven ) & start the bashing

Indians are always very keen to talk about such issues so be it, Lets talk about it, Let them refute it


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## asim.mian10

This is old report but on the truth


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## faithfulguy

emo_girl said:


> hey you listen to me every now & then Indians here bring in the "rape cases" in threads where there is absolutely no need of it
> 
> Every now & then they post old articles about Rapes(which havent been proven ) & start the bashing
> 
> Indians are always very keen to talk about such issues so be it, Lets talk about it, Let them refute it



lets say they do. Do you want to stoop down to their level?


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## DaRk WaVe

faithfulguy said:


> lets say they do. Do you want to stoop down to their level?



my dear Chinese
If they will abuse & miss use the freedom they get here then be it we can reply the way we want


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## Khajur

Nothing but utter crap dished out by *a ghost writer called Christina Palmer *who pens such false propaganda stuff at regular intervals in the *daily mail,pakistan*.U can only imagine at whose behest he/she write such rubbish reports.

Forget international media,*i'm more than 100% sure that no other news papers in pakistan would report the same story in their news papers *. Such report is exclusive to daily mail,pakistan of the all the media in the world.


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## faithfulguy

The Daily Mail&#8217;s findings indicate that since the project of posting sex workers in the disguise of female soldiers in Kashmir was initiated by the orders of General Deepak Kapoor without seeking any formal approval from the Defence Minister, the news cam as a big shock as General Kapoor was already at odds with the Defence Minister A.K Antony over the issue of corruption in sale of army lands. 


This general Kapoor sound familiar. Is this the same guy that talk about striking into China/Pakistan in 96hrs?


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## rambhakt

Asim Aquil said:


> Then that's your prerogative, and you may choose to declare it so, but it won't get deleted just because its not nice.



Hi Asim,

Thanks for discussing a very important topic in a defence forum...

You guys are doing an extremely good job of exposing yourself about your hate towards India.

Keep up your good work. Let people post more rubbish about India so that entire world can see you thru... Thanks again... after all only Pakistanis and Chinese can believe these craps against India...


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## grey boy 2

emo_girl said:


> my dear Chinese
> If they will abuse & miss use the freedom they get here then be it we can reply the way we want



emo, i second you, a thread like this one was allowed to stay on the

forum for almost a month,and Indians were enjoying with their freedom of speech happily.http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-defence/31137-china-trusts-prostitutes-more-2.html

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## hembo

Asim Aquil said:


> Yaar, this was a doomed experiment from the word get go. I only hope there are more idiots like these who thought of this idea in New Delhi for us to contend with.
> 
> Indians need to improve their army recruitment methods and recruit higher caliber people who won't go around committing suicide just because they haven't had sex in a while. It's ridiculous.
> 
> Also they should recruit real volunteers who should not be held forcibly on bond.



You have justified you being this "Sapere aude!" so valiantly by contributing intelligently above on this very intelligent and thought provoking thread. Also thousand thanks for providing the very reliable source (which didn't not actually require any credible source for validation) which validates this very believable piece of information and benefiting this whole forum community.

*Hail "Sapere aude!"*. It gives such a nice impression of the level of Moderation team here at PDF.

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## Patriot

Damn! Indian Members will get intestinal ulcers from this thread!

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## Nemesis

> *New Delhi's home minister P Chidambaram has ordered his officials to launch an official complaint with Pakistan's High Commission* after a Pakistani newspaper reported an investigation alleging that 178 female members of its Border Security Force had been deployed to "meet the natural needs" of its male soldiers on the Line of Control between the two armies in disputed Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> According to the report in the Pakistan Daily Mail earlier this month, New Delhi had "deployed 200 prostitutes" according to its "authoritative sources". It claimed the decision had been taken by senior Army officers who feared a number of troop suicides and incidents where soldiers had killed their own comrades was linked to loneliness and the absence of female company.
> 
> In their search for a response they had contacted a number of consultants and analysts who said the soldiers had acted in "acute frustration and depression". They had recommended increased home leave for married soldiers, but could compromise on security by allowing too many to take leave.
> 
> The newspaper claimed a major-general was sent to Moscow to research how the Russians had dealt with a similar problem in Afghanistan in the 1980s. "The Russian consultants told the Indian Army that the since the soldiers in the valley were [starved of women], they should be provided with women to meet their genuine and natural needs."
> 
> A high-level committee of senior army officers was formed to explore how they could recruit prostitutes and give them basic military training. The newspaper claimed India's intelligence agency, the Research and Analysis Wing was drafted in to screen the prostitutes because, it said, it already had a "network of prostitutes in different cities of India".
> 
> The report which was published on the day the female unit was deployed in Kashmir has been dismissed as a propaganda ploy by Pakistan's ISI intelligence agency, the ISI, to demoralise Indian troops.
> 
> *"It is clearly a story written under a pseudonym, planted by the ISI to demoralise the new women-only contingent. Psychological warfare is not new for the Pakistanis," said a home ministry official.
> 
> Jagir Singh, deputy inspector general of the Border Security Force said the claims were an "insult to Indian women".*
> 
> "These women are aged 19-25 and most of them are from small towns and villages of Punjab. You can imagine the demoralising effect it can have on them," he said.



First female Indian troops 'are prostitutes' - Telegraph



> Damn! Indian Members will get intestinal ulcers from this thread!


 
Dude, if an Indian member had posted a bs story of some Pakistani military women being prostitutes, how would you have reacted? more importantly, how long would the member last on the forum?

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## DaRk WaVe

Just wait a bit i will be back for you all 

Its really funny th way Indians cry & complain when they get hurt

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## booo

Even the mods and staff here are coming to conclusions on "unverifieable facts" posted in pakistani news. so sad...

did anyone try to verify the identities of christina palmer or the other writers?


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## Awesome

Bunch of drama queens here who can't comprehend the tenets of freedom of speech.

*This thread stays.* Only administrative action I will take now is to shift it to the Kashmir forum.

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## Awesome

Nemesis said:


> Okay. Accepted. But then don't delete every anti Pakistan Times of India article that someone posts just because it's from the TOI.


Surely I've said so the same many times over. Only keep it relevant to this forum. I prefer to criticize my own country men for each and every wrong step they may take.

This is defence.pk, we're renowned for our thick skins and the ability to take a debate. If you don't believe me, hit the new posts button and see the amount of Pakistan critical (I don't call them anti-Pakistani, as from criticism we get improvement) threads out there.

This is a non-argument.

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## Awesome

The article discusses a lot of names, mentions signed bonds, narrates incidents of suicide, talks about pending court cases.

All verifiable. Has any of the mentioned bodies and persons come out in denial of this? I read one article where some ministry accused ISI to be behind this "rumor".

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## graphican

Nemesis said:


> You actually believe that we would recruit prostitutes in the guise of a female battalion?



Is that not the fact? I heard Indian soldiers were committing suicides and Russian friends suggested you to offer your soldiers meat. By the way, I haven't heard of any suicide incident ever since. If India hasn't inducted sex workers, what other measure has it taken to prevent those suicidal deaths?


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## Righteous_Fire

graphican said:


> Is that not the fact? I heard Indian soldiers were committing suicides and Russian friends suggested you to offer your soldiers meat. By the way, I haven't heard of any suicide incident ever since. If India hasn't inducted sex workers, what other measure has it taken to prevent those suicidal deaths?





Whether the article is true or not, Mind your words dear Graphican, 

Just look at it this way ..... you said:



graphican said:


> Is that not the fact? I *heard* Indian soldiers were committing suicides and Russian friends suggested



Can you back that up with an article or a link? 

Bottom line:

Say whatever you want to say, just as long as it is not against the forum rules and is backed up by research/ genuine links/ articles

blind hatred gets nobody nowhere , be rational and mindful, and in true humane ways of other peoples' feelings as well

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## paritosh

emo_girl said:


> Just wait a bit i will be back for you all
> 
> Its really funny th way Indians cry & complain when they get hurt



all that the 'Indians' are doing is asking for the validity of this news report that seriously maligns the professionalism of the Indian army.
Most of us here on this forum have brothers and sisters posted in the army...we know the training they went through.
The way this article portrays the army as a raggedy army of sex starved maniacs is indeed hurting to us....for it is not.

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## paritosh

Asim Aquil said:


> Bunch of drama queens here who can't comprehend the tenets of freedom of speech.
> 
> *This thread stays.* Only administrative action I will take now is to shift it to the Kashmir forum.



freedom of speech cuts both ways.
One article in one Pakistani newspaper quoting absolute nobodies...who happen to know more about the Indian army than most here in India does call for some skepticism from most having a scientific school of thought....don't let your patriotism cloud your vision and influence your right to freedom of speech.
The Indians have made a rational point..._how can this one Pakistani report be so precise as to know the names and quote directly from the horse's mouth when there are no similar reports from any of the Indian dailies?_
or is this an unprecedented journalistic achievement by the Dawn that'd dwarf all the espionage ever to have been undertaken by the ISI?

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## Righteous_Fire

paritosh said:


> freedom of speech cuts both ways.
> One article in one Pakistani newspaper quoting absolute nobodies...who happen to know more about the Indian army than most here in India does call for some skepticism from most having a scientific school of thought....don't let your patriotism cloud your vision and influence your right to freedom of speech.
> The Indians have made a rational point..._how can this one Pakistani report be so precise as to know the names and quote directly from the horse's mouth when there are no similar reports from any of the Indian dailies?_
> or is this an unprecedented journalistic achievement by the Dawn that'd dwarf all the espionage ever to have been undertaken by the ISI?



I agree,

We (Pakistanis & Indians) have natural biases ...... almost always BLIND..... SO it would only be fair to say that.......

Pakistani newspapers dont count as far as Indian related matters are concerned and like wise for Indian papers. We need to have third party or neutral sources.

So Pakistanis can believe it if they like but it wont stand a chance in a fair discussion and that is that 

Let us be above this non sense  ..........

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## Patriot

paritosh said:


> all that the 'Indians' are doing is asking for the validity of this news report that seriously maligns the professionalism of the Indian army.



*Indian army finds inflatable answer to low morale*
*THE Indian Army is fitting some of its toughest frontline troops with inflatable penile implants in a bid to boost army morale.*

Impotency is becoming a serious concern for the country's élite soldiers stationed in the disputed mountain territory of Jammu and Kashmir. *Many of India's special forces are reporting "marriage problems" when they return from their tours of duty.*



Doctors at the army's Research and Referral Hospital in Delhi say that the combination of high altitude living and constant stress and exposure to trauma is sapping the sex drive of the soldiers.

Col P. Madhusudhanan, an army urologist at the hospital, says that while many sufferers can be treated successfully with a combination of drugs and psychotherapy, some do require surgical intervention. "For those who don't respond to treatment we now offer an inflatable implant which is inserted into the penis, but we see this very much as a last resort," he said.

It is easy to see why. Not only is the surgery expensive (about £3,500 per implant), the procedure involves sewing a bladder inside the patient's scrotal sac and a small pipe into his penis - the device is operated by squeezing the bladder to pump liquid into the pipe, thus creating an erection.

*An earlier procedure involving the insertion of a "semi-rigid rod" had to be abandoned when army doctors found that troops were being left with permanent erections.*

The hospital has fitted 12 soldiers with the collapsible penile implant, but Col Madhusudhanan admits that getting proud, battle-hardened troops to admit that they are underperforming in the bedroom has been fraught with difficulty.

"Of course there is some hesitation," said the urologist. "But to a doctor they talk quite openly. With us there is no problem about discussing their medical problem."

However, in the macho world of the Indian Army, wives are not invited to take part in the pre-surgical consultations. "Generally we don't speak to the partners," said Col Madhusudhanan. "We leave that to the soldiers."

While impotency is not uncommon in the Indian Army, doctors say that soldiers serving in the mountains of Jammu and Kashmir are particularly vulnerable because of altitude problems combined with stress.

According to Martin Wilkins, a professor of pharmacology at Hammersmith Hospital, in London, people living at high altitude produce the enzyme phosphodiesterase which restricts blood flow to the penis, causing it to droop. Phosphodiesterase also restricts the ability of the lungs to absorb oxygen, a common complaint among mountaineers. Soldiers patrolling the Line of Control between Indian Kashmir and Pakistan are often described as fighting on the world's highest battlefield "an extreme alpine environment of glaciers, ravines and snow-capped mountains rising to 21,000ft above sea level".

India and Pakistan have been locked in a bitter dispute over the control of Kashmir since the Partition of India in 1947. Although the Indian Army is reluctant to reveal any operational details of its deployment in Kashmir, Pakistan claims that India could have as many as 700,000 troops stationed in the disputed province.

George Fernandes, the Indian defence minister, can only hope that altitude-induced impotency is not spreading along the front line in Kashmir. Otherwise he might be looking at an unforseen - and perhaps embarrassing - blow to India's already massive defence budget.


Indian army finds inflatable answer to low morale - Telegraph


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## Patriot

*Indian army finds inflatable answer to low morale*
*THE Indian Army is fitting some of its toughest frontline troops with inflatable penile implants in a bid to boost army morale.*

Impotency is becoming a serious concern for the country's élite soldiers stationed in the disputed mountain territory of Jammu and Kashmir. *Many of India's special forces are reporting "marriage problems" when they return from their tours of duty.*



Doctors at the army's Research and Referral Hospital in Delhi say that the combination of high altitude living and constant stress and exposure to trauma is sapping the sex drive of the soldiers.

Col P. Madhusudhanan, an army urologist at the hospital, says that while many sufferers can be treated successfully with a combination of drugs and psychotherapy, some do require surgical intervention. "For those who don't respond to treatment we now offer an inflatable implant which is inserted into the penis, but we see this very much as a last resort," he said.

It is easy to see why. Not only is the surgery expensive (about £3,500 per implant), the procedure involves sewing a bladder inside the patient's scrotal sac and a small pipe into his penis - the device is operated by squeezing the bladder to pump liquid into the pipe, thus creating an erection.

*An earlier procedure involving the insertion of a "semi-rigid rod" had to be abandoned when army doctors found that troops were being left with permanent erections.*

The hospital has fitted 12 soldiers with the collapsible penile implant, but Col Madhusudhanan admits that getting proud, battle-hardened troops to admit that they are underperforming in the bedroom has been fraught with difficulty.

"Of course there is some hesitation," said the urologist. "But to a doctor they talk quite openly. With us there is no problem about discussing their medical problem."

However, in the macho world of the Indian Army, wives are not invited to take part in the pre-surgical consultations. "Generally we don't speak to the partners," said Col Madhusudhanan. "We leave that to the soldiers."

While impotency is not uncommon in the Indian Army, doctors say that soldiers serving in the mountains of Jammu and Kashmir are particularly vulnerable because of altitude problems combined with stress.

According to Martin Wilkins, a professor of pharmacology at Hammersmith Hospital, in London, people living at high altitude produce the enzyme phosphodiesterase which restricts blood flow to the penis, causing it to droop. Phosphodiesterase also restricts the ability of the lungs to absorb oxygen, a common complaint among mountaineers. Soldiers patrolling the Line of Control between Indian Kashmir and Pakistan are often described as fighting on the world's highest battlefield "an extreme alpine environment of glaciers, ravines and snow-capped mountains rising to 21,000ft above sea level".

India and Pakistan have been locked in a bitter dispute over the control of Kashmir since the Partition of India in 1947. Although the Indian Army is reluctant to reveal any operational details of its deployment in Kashmir, Pakistan claims that India could have as many as 700,000 troops stationed in the disputed province.

George Fernandes, the Indian defence minister, can only hope that altitude-induced impotency is not spreading along the front line in Kashmir. Otherwise he might be looking at an unforseen - and perhaps embarrassing - blow to India's already massive defence budget.


Indian army finds inflatable answer to low morale - Telegraph

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## paritosh

Patriot said:


> *Indian army finds inflatable answer to low morale*
> *THE Indian Army is fitting some of its toughest frontline troops with inflatable penile implants in a bid to boost army morale.*
> 
> Impotency is becoming a serious concern for the country's élite soldiers stationed in the disputed mountain territory of Jammu and Kashmir. *Many of India's special forces are reporting "marriage problems" when they return from their tours of duty.*
> 
> 
> 
> Doctors at the army's Research and Referral Hospital in Delhi say that the combination of high altitude living and constant stress and exposure to trauma is sapping the sex drive of the soldiers.
> 
> Col P. Madhusudhanan, an army urologist at the hospital, says that while many sufferers can be treated successfully with a combination of drugs and psychotherapy, some do require surgical intervention. "For those who don't respond to treatment we now offer an inflatable implant which is inserted into the penis, but we see this very much as a last resort," he said.
> 
> It is easy to see why. Not only is the surgery expensive (about £3,500 per implant), the procedure involves sewing a bladder inside the patient's scrotal sac and a small pipe into his penis - the device is operated by squeezing the bladder to pump liquid into the pipe, thus creating an erection.
> 
> *An earlier procedure involving the insertion of a "semi-rigid rod" had to be abandoned when army doctors found that troops were being left with permanent erections.*
> 
> The hospital has fitted 12 soldiers with the collapsible penile implant, but Col Madhusudhanan admits that getting proud, battle-hardened troops to admit that they are underperforming in the bedroom has been fraught with difficulty.
> 
> "Of course there is some hesitation," said the urologist. "But to a doctor they talk quite openly. With us there is no problem about discussing their medical problem."
> 
> However, in the macho world of the Indian Army, wives are not invited to take part in the pre-surgical consultations. "Generally we don't speak to the partners," said Col Madhusudhanan. "We leave that to the soldiers."
> 
> While impotency is not uncommon in the Indian Army, doctors say that soldiers serving in the mountains of Jammu and Kashmir are particularly vulnerable because of altitude problems combined with stress.
> 
> According to Martin Wilkins, a professor of pharmacology at Hammersmith Hospital, in London, people living at high altitude produce the enzyme phosphodiesterase which restricts blood flow to the penis, causing it to droop. Phosphodiesterase also restricts the ability of the lungs to absorb oxygen, a common complaint among mountaineers. Soldiers patrolling the Line of Control between Indian Kashmir and Pakistan are often described as fighting on the world's highest battlefield "an extreme alpine environment of glaciers, ravines and snow-capped mountains rising to 21,000ft above sea level".
> 
> India and Pakistan have been locked in a bitter dispute over the control of Kashmir since the Partition of India in 1947. Although the Indian Army is reluctant to reveal any operational details of its deployment in Kashmir, Pakistan claims that India could have as many as 700,000 troops stationed in the disputed province.
> 
> George Fernandes, the Indian defence minister, can only hope that altitude-induced impotency is not spreading along the front line in Kashmir. Otherwise he might be looking at an unforseen - and perhaps embarrassing - blow to India's already massive defence budget.
> 
> 
> Indian army finds inflatable answer to low morale - Telegraph



this piece of news has been reported in the Indian media also.
long exposures to extreme cold weather cause erectile dysfunction.
quite a lame attempt i must say...try harder.

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## paritosh

Since you've opened a thread to it....what is so surprising in that?
soldiers posted in siachin have suffered from EDs for long...
infact german soldiers were also suffering from Eds after the first world war...
nothing to poke fun about...i am pretty sure you have never even been frost-bitten.


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## Khajur

Guys, this is Daily mail,pakistan & christan pamer special.

*No other news group either international or pakistani have reported the same story.*

Few months ago,this duo started putting the story that the indian female soldiers battalion being deployed in kashmir are actually prostitutes rounded up by RAW across india ,to pleasure the male soldiers posted there .*And as part of natural progress after few months ,they come out with another report that those "professional prostitutes" have become pregnent now*.

Now tell me if the socalled prostitutes collected by RAW are actually genunine professionals ,then can they now become pregnent after just couple of months of posting like some newly wed docile brides?? .:

The truth of the matter is the new contigent of female soldiers are actually part of BSF and they deployed along the international border,not along LOC in kashmir.

These are shameless tactics to spread rumours about women even if they belong to a percieved enemy country using propaganda news media . Noone should forget there are women living pakistan too.


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## notsuperstitious

Why insult indian women soldiers??? And moderator team supporting it? How does derogatory name calling pass as freedom of expression?

On the other hand, if a moron does want to expose their low upbringing by using such language and quoting blogs, then why are indians getting worked up? does it not only prove our understanding of the rabid hate prevelant in pakistai society and what their education system produces? this is proof, lets ignore it.


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## DaRk WaVe

booo said:


> Even the mods and staff here are coming to conclusions on "unverifieable facts" posted in pakistani news. so sad...
> 
> did anyone try to verify the identities of christina palmer or the other writers?





Nemesis said:


> First female Indian troops 'are prostitutes' - Telegraph
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, if an Indian member had posted a bs story of some Pakistani military women being prostitutes, how would you have reacted? more importantly, how long would the member last on the forum?



Do i need to tell you about the things Indians here post & those threads do go on & on, Should i give u an example, Try to digest it, you people bring in social issues of 'rape' in threads from no where then those bunch of stupid dumb pucks start justifying the relevance of 'rape' with military issues, isnt that pathetic
Then there are threads opened by Indians about years old 'rape cases' which are not even proved & guess whats their stupid dumb source, you got it right the ToI, every thing posted in ToI is a God revelation & Indians tend to believe in it, Don't you people think about the authentication of source at that time
& coming Pakistani women in military, I remember a INDIAN member here who posted comments on a video in which Pakistani military women were been decorated guess what he said "why was the general pressing their B*** so much? " & he wasn't banned


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## DaRk WaVe

rambhakt said:


> Hi Asim,
> 
> Thanks for discussing a very important topic in a defence forum...
> 
> You guys are doing an extremely good job of exposing yourself about your hate towards India.
> 
> Keep up your good work. Let people post more rubbish about India so that entire world can see you thru... Thanks again... after all only Pakistanis and Chinese can believe these craps against India...




Hi Kiddo, Did you got 'recommendation' for joining an Indian forum, I think you didnt 

So whenever you get a 'recommendation' for joining the most famous BS Indian forum go there & see what 'words' & what 'sections' are there come back & tell us about it 

I will be waiting here

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## macrocks

> The first battalion of Indian army that actually comprises sex workers, recruited from relight areas across India with the help of RAW



This was more than enough proof that the story is concocted for domestic consumption in Pak and for the pakistanis to gloat over IA when the PA is feeling threatened from COAS's remark. The point is one doesn't need RAW's help to find whores and RAW doesn't work inside Indian borders. Probably the story is for accretion of the low moral of PA. Shame Pak has to resort to such tactics.


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## macrocks

> Hi Kiddo, Did you got 'recommendation' for joining an Indian forum, I think you didnt
> 
> So whenever you get it a 'recommendation' for joining the most famous BS Indian forum go there & see what 'words' & what 'sections' are there come back & tell us about it



Hey girl BR doesn't represent the Indian forums. Come to *** and show if any wrong words are used.


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## DeathGod

Wow what a thread and what a topic. 

Reading it and reading the responses of some of the perceived "Sensible" members ( not a hell lot exist) made me sad but then I asked myself what's so wrong even if such an act had really happened. 

In WW2 ( after the D day) in many battlefields more soilders were going to bed because of STD's (sexually transmitted diseases) then the casulities in the war zone. 

I think we Indians ( the second largest population in this world ) shouldn't be ashamed of our sexuality. I mean think of it, the poor men and women posted their are just following the instincts of an average human beings. I dont know where the word Prostitutes has come in this discussion but lets say a BSF unit of women have been posted in JAK and a lot of them become pregnant and a lot of other soilders develop some diseases or whatever. 

I would say that the norm is acceptable but that the Army should work hard to make these things safer so that soilders arent falling ill due to all this. I dont care what someone has to say or write. As far as natural sexual instincts and driving the population up goes its hard to beat us Indians. 

Hail Indian Army Hail God/Godess Of Sex

Guys here just need to watch some Russell Peters 

@emo_girl : If its not much of an offence to you then ASL please


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## forcetrip

Are you arguing that your post is indeed true? .. You are making loud noises over what the other Indians have previously done and stated in other posts.. I dont see your point or the point of this post... Like someone said, please make sure huge news stories of calling other people prostitutes actually come from an acceptable journalistic source

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## booo

emo_girl said:


> Do i need to tell you about the things Indians here post & those threads do go on & on, Should i give u an example, Try to digest it, you people bring in social issues of 'rape' in threads from no where then those bunch of stupid dumb pucks start justifying the relevance of 'rape' with military issues, isnt that pathetic
> Then there are threads opened by Indians about years old 'rape cases' which are not even proved & guess whats their stupid dumb source, you got it right the ToI, every thing posted in ToI is a God revelation & Indians tend to believe in it, Don't you people think about the authentication of source at that time
> & coming Pakistani women in military, I remember a INDIAN member here who posted comments on a video in which Pakistani military women were been decorated guess what he said "why was the general pressing their B*** so much? " & he wasn't banned



so, thats your justification...

Even if an indian posts BS. he should be banned too...


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## Awesome

paritosh said:


> freedom of speech cuts both ways.
> One article in one Pakistani newspaper quoting absolute nobodies...who happen to know more about the Indian army than most here in India does call for some skepticism from most having a scientific school of thought....don't let your patriotism cloud your vision and influence your right to freedom of speech.
> The Indians have made a rational point..._how can this one Pakistani report be so precise as to know the names and quote directly from the horse's mouth when there are no similar reports from any of the Indian dailies?_
> or is this an unprecedented journalistic achievement by the Dawn that'd dwarf all the espionage ever to have been undertaken by the ISI?


My word or anyone else here, is not the word of God. It is not etched in stone. It's a point of view expressed by a news source. If you don't believe it, say you don't believe it and be done with it. Whether or not I believe in what you believe is a totally different argument and you have no control over it.

Freedom of speech is not subject to any displeasement. You can call it "not nice", but thats it, you can't force your views upon others. I have the right to be not nice and I have the right to claim unpleasant facts.


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## forcetrip

Dont bunch some of us with some of you either. Might as well start posting peoples blogs and laugh around your computer screen.


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## forcetrip

And please dont state it as being a fact. I am appauled by your sense of right and wrong at this point.


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## Awesome

forcetrip said:


> Dont bunch some of us with some of you either. Might as well start posting peoples blogs and laugh around your computer screen.


Nobody is laughing around the computer screen, thats just your own limited vision that encases you in small mindedness. The only argument here is of freedom of speech that is higher than anyone's sensibilities, nationhood and patriotism.

Whether or not I choose to call something a fact is my prerogative and you cannot dictate terms to me to believe otherwise.


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## macrocks

> that encases you in small mindedness.



Holding a parochial view and terming others such in the viel of freedom of speech. Tell me what was RAW doing there.


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## Awesome

macrocks said:


> Holding a parochial view and terming others such in the viel of freedom of speech. Tell me what was RAW doing there.


Shooting down some arguments against my freedom. Anyone that is against such freedoms, does not have my support.


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## macrocks

> Shooting down some arguments against my freedom. Anyone that is against such freedoms, does not have my support.



Just tell me what was RAW doing there and I rest my case irrespective of your explanation.


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## arya-hind

now that show level of Pakistani 

no one blame me if i give answer in my way 

pls close the thread


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## Nemesis

> This is defence.pk, we're renowned for our thick skins and the ability to take a debate. If you don't believe me, hit the new posts button and see the amount of Pakistan critical (I don't call them anti-Pakistani, as from criticism we get improvement) threads out there.



I have already said, if freedom of expression is the line you're gonna take regarding this thread, then i accept it. However a lot of threads get closed down because of the reason - _Indian media bs_ - freedom of expression must work both ways. 

and yes, those threads were relevant to the forum as they concern the nation of Pakistan.


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## paritosh

Asim Aquil said:


> My word or anyone else here, is not the word of God. It is not etched in stone. It's a point of view expressed by a news source. If you don't believe it, say you don't believe it and be done with it. Whether or not I believe in what you believe is a totally different argument and you have no control over it.
> 
> Freedom of speech is not subject to any displeasement. You can call it "not nice", but thats it, you can't force your views upon others. I have the right to be not nice and I have the right to claim unpleasant facts.



get over your narcissism Asim and see that the meaning of the post of mine you quoted is indeed to have personal opinions albeit based on some rational roots.
Let us first discuss the feasibility of such an 'experiment' in any armed force....and then the possibility of such explosive intel getting leaked to one 'dawn' newspaper...which if I remember correctly produced reports of "dossiers on Indian raw agents" being handed over to the Indian govt. some time back.


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## forcetrip

Asim Aquil said:


> Whether or not I choose to call something a fact is my prerogative and you cannot dictate terms to me to believe otherwise.



Hah .. and people are trying to reason with you? .. The world does not revolve around your news clippings .. You cannot call anything you would like as "fact" .. dont insult our country with your bias. I am strictly against Indian propaganda showing up on this forums and same should be held accountable on our end.


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## Awesome

Nemesis said:


> I have already said, if freedom of expression is the line you're gonna take regarding this thread, then i accept it. However a lot of threads get closed down because of the reason - _Indian media bs_ - freedom of expression must work both ways.
> 
> and yes, those threads were relevant to the forum as they concern the nation of Pakistan.


I think I've explained the forum policy enough, there is another policy about sticking to topic.


----------



## Awesome

forcetrip said:


> Hah .. and people are trying to reason with you? .. The world does not revolve around your news clippings .. You cannot call anything you would like as "fact" .. dont insult our country with your bias. I am strictly against Indian propaganda showing up on this forums and same should be held accountable on our end.


Then you lack the spine to digest difficult ideas and opposing points of views. Your loss, not the forums. I think the explanation has gone on enough now, stick to topic or excuse yourself from the thread.


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## Awesome

paritosh said:


> get over your narcissism Asim and see that the meaning of the post of mine you quoted is indeed to have personal opinions albeit based on some rational roots.
> Let us first discuss the feasibility of such an 'experiment' in any armed force....and then the possibility of such explosive intel getting leaked to one 'dawn' newspaper...which if I remember correctly produced reports of "dossiers on Indian raw agents" being handed over to the Indian govt. some time back.


If any of those things were the topic of discussion here, then why not. But they aren't.


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## DaRk WaVe

arya-hind said:


> now that show level of Pakistani
> 
> no one blame me if i give answer in my way
> 
> pls close the thread



Look who is here, hey Hi do u r ember me, did u forgot what happened or should i repeat it here, I have seen your level as well, If you want to show your level here then ok start it, Don't force me to go down to YOUR level ok



booo said:


> so, thats your justification...
> 
> Even if an indian posts BS. he should be banned too...



Yes its my justification, whenever a Pak bashing thread is started you all 'unbiased' people disappear & start hitting the thanks button, as if you are having ...
any thing by ToI is a God's revelation & Indians believe in it without any so called 'authentication' of source but on the other hand ehh!!

here you all acting like a kid who hits another kid get backs a tight slap & runs away to his mom saying, "mama mae ne to itne aram se mara tha par us ne itne zor se mara" 



macrocks said:


> *Hey girl BR doesn't represent the Indian forums.* Come to *** and show if any wrong words are used.



another ridiculous comment, can u deny the low quality & BS posted in that forum, just answer me in yes or No 

BTW indians don't forget to thank post by Mr macrocks


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## Nemesis

> I think I've explained the forum policy enough, there is another policy about sticking to topic.



 cop out anyone? Okay i'll stick to topic.

The article published on the opening page is written by someone named Christina Palmer. According to the daily mail itself, Christina Palmer is a pseudonym. Here is the press release - 



> P.S The management of The Daily Mail would hereby like to apprise its valued readers that Christina Palmer is a pen name of a very senior Non-Indian journalist. The Daily Mail not like to reveal the real name or actual nationality of Ms. Palmer due to security and immigration threats that she can may face on the hands of Indian Intelligence agencies and other official organizations.



The Daily Mail - Daily News from Pakistan - Newspaper from Pakistan

Very senior non Indian journalist? A quick browse through the website reveals that one of the very senior non Indian journalist working for the paper is Ahmed Quraishi. Credibility down the drain. 

So why would such a paper publish a front line story under a pseudo name? Is it really as the paper claims "due to security threats" ? If that were true, why don't respected publications like the dawn also use pseudo names for their India correspondents ? Do they not perceive this so called security threat for their correspondent in India? 

Lets leave that aside and move on to the article itself. It is firstly written in a half baked manner. Incoherent to the last sentence. It claims to have uncovered a cover up on the basis of investigations and quotes certain figures of importance in the Indian security establishment. 

The first question to be asked is this - How did this investigation come about? A correspondent who is in apparent fear of his/her life and hence is using a pseudonym is able to get quotes of important security figures? 

Not only that, but this correspondent is able to uncover a controversial move by the Indian army/defence ministry that no other media outlet has even the inkling of? Is this shadow journalist Batman? or Batgirl? 

The truth is no such investigation took place, because no such measure to prevent suicide was given the go ahead. The Indian army is not in the sexual exploitation business, it is not full of pimps. 

Such an article does nothing to the army's reputation , however it does do a whole lot to Pakistani media's credibility. If the article is a figment of the writers imagination, The question to be asked is that does the writer think that all women in the armed forces are prostitutes? It would not be a new view. Till the late 20th century, working women in patriarchal societies were considered "loose" . Indeed such an attitude is still prevalent in some societies. The article is proof of it.

Moreover, if such a newspaper can get away with posting such incoherent rubbish which will no doubt be swallowed by its gullible readership, the question to be asked is what else is the Pakistani media feeding its people? India and a TTP relation perhaps??.......

One hopes that respected news organizations in Pakistan would not stoop to this new low in Pakistan-India propaganda.

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## macrocks

> can u deny the low quality & BS posted in that forum



There are a large number of Pak forums and blogs were Indians are abused. Do they eresent you ??? Just answer me in yes or No.


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## DaRk WaVe

macrocks said:


> There are a large number of Pak forums and blogs were Indians are abused. Do they eresent you ??? Just answer me in yes or No.



 

Where is my answer? 
is that blog or Forum a famous one, You are getting all kinda freedom on this forum & you all say what ever you want to say but when you are hit back you all start crying WHY???
you think you can what ever u want in name of freedom & we will just sit back & see our selves & our nation humiliated, If you hit some one you must learn to take a hit back

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## Awesome

Nemesis said:


> cop out anyone? Okay i'll stick to topic.



I have duties to perform, not to explain.

The rest of your post is fine. It's your opinion... Some of it I agree with, some it I don't. Now was that really so difficult?


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## DaRk WaVe

> An earlier procedure involving *the insertion of a "semi-rigid rod"* had to be abandoned when army doctors found that troops were being left with permanent erections.



seriously ammmmmmm 

I am somewhere between  & this


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## PlanetWarrior

In every army where there are co-sex regiments there are bound to be hanky panky. Soldiers are human as well. It even happens in Pakistani regiments. So what's the big deal if a few Indian male soldiers banged up some of their female colleagues. If its consensual sex minus rape or sexual harassment etc then I would say go for it. You're in the army now  bang bang


----------



## Awesome

macrocks said:


> There are a large number of Pak forums and blogs were Indians are abused. Do they eresent you ??? Just answer me in yes or No.





emo_girl said:


> Where is my answer?
> is that blog or Forum a famous one, You are getting all kinda freedom on this forum & you all say what ever you want to say but when you are hit back you all start crying WHY???
> you think you can what ever u want to say in name of freedom & we will just sit back & see our selves & our nation humiliated, If you hit some one you must learn to take a hit back



Defence.pk strongly discourages the use of its facilities to attack other forums who have their own rules and policies, which should be respected if you are to visit there.

Moreover we actually recognize the difficult and commendable job that any forum, Indian, Pakistani or otherwise is doing. We like to maintain positive relations with all forums as much as we can, and do not allow any mudslinging against a competitor organization.


----------



## notsuperstitious

Nemesis said:


> cop out anyone? Okay i'll stick to topic.
> 
> The article published on the opening page is written by someone named Christina Palmer. According to the daily mail itself, Christina Palmer is a pseudonym. Here is the press release -
> 
> 
> 
> The Daily Mail - Daily News from Pakistan - Newspaper from Pakistan
> 
> Very senior non Indian journalist? A quick browse through the website reveals that one of the very senior non Indian journalist working for the paper is Ahmed Quraishi. Credibility down the drain.
> 
> So why would such a paper publish a front line story under a pseudo name? Is it really as the paper claims "due to security threats" ? If that were true, why don't respected publications like the dawn also use pseudo names for their India correspondents ? Do they not perceive this so called security threat for their correspondent in India?
> 
> Lets leave that aside and move on to the article itself. It is firstly written in a half baked manner. Incoherent to the last sentence. It claims to have uncovered a cover up on the basis of investigations and quotes certain figures of importance in the Indian security establishment.
> 
> The first question to be asked is this - How did this investigation come about? A correspondent who is in apparent fear of his/her life and hence is using a pseudonym is able to get quotes of important security figures?
> 
> Not only that, but this correspondent is able to uncover a controversial move by the Indian army/defence ministry that no other media outlet has even the inkling of? Is this shadow journalist Batman? or Batgirl?
> 
> The truth is no such investigation took place, because no such measure to prevent suicide was given the go ahead. The Indian army is not in the sexual exploitation business, it is not full of pimps.
> 
> Such an article does nothing to the army's reputation , however it does do a whole lot to Pakistani media's credibility. If the article is a figment of the writers imagination, The question to be asked is that does the writer think that all women in the armed forces are prostitutes? It would not be a new view. Till the late 20th century, working women in patriarchal societies were considered "loose" . Indeed such an attitude is still prevalent in some societies. The article is proof of it.
> 
> Moreover, if such a newspaper can get away with posting such incoherent rubbish which will no doubt be swallowed by its gullible readership, the question to be asked is what else is the Pakistani media feeding its people? India and a TTP relation perhaps??.......
> 
> One hopes that respected news organizations in Pakistan would not stoop to this new low in Pakistan-India propaganda.



Ha ha ha, this is rich man, very very rich. so ahmad qureshi is now posting under western sounding woman's name, thats supposed to be a very senior indian journalist 

Liar liar pants on fire. more low quality reporting on pakistani media, mere demagogy and hate speech.

if an anricle about pakistani female soldiers being prostitutes were to appear on a blog, written by a senior pakistani journalist under a fake name of course,and then posted here, i'm sure it will not get deleted 

boy an expose alright if you know what i mean


----------



## TaimiKhan

Its enough. 

Thread Closed as the news item and source is unreliable for the time being

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## PlanetWarrior

emo_girl said:


> seriously ammmmmmm



Yeah. It happened to me for 2 weeks after I had a kidney stone blast done on me


----------



## Nihat

Probabe reason for the 100000000000000000 women raped in Kashmir


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## Nemesis

This is actually pretty hilarious.



> An earlier procedure involving the insertion of a "semi-rigid rod" had to be abandoned when army doctors found that troops were being left with permanent erections.





I am the only one who sees the humour in this? Lighten up.


----------



## FreekiN

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.


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## UchihaCG

FreekiN said:


> Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.



I second that bro. 

(or wait, are you a girl?)


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## third eye

It was interesting to read an article published in 2002 after 8 years.

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## UchihaCG

Funny...... no other news source from "Pakistan" posted this even.....


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## graphican

third eye said:


> It was interesting to read an article published in 2002 after 8 years.



I think mountains haven't been on decline since 2002 neither Indian soldiers are taking super duper Harmons to avoid ED in 2010.


----------



## Khajur

Character of Shivaji Maharaj.


During his long military career and various campaigns his strong religious and warrior code of ethics, exemplary character and deep seated and uncompromising spiritual values directed him to offer protection to houses of worship, non-combatants, women and children. He always showed respect, defended and protected places of worship of all denominations and religions.


He boldly risked his life, his treasure, his personal well being and that of his family, to openly challenge his immensely larger enemies to defend and achieve freedom and independence for his country. He unflinchingly defied overwhelming odds stacked against him by the mighty Mughal Empire and the regional sultanates. He overcame and succeeded in the face of an unprecedented level of difficulties and challenges posed by his enemies.[6] He did not spend any resources on projects designed for self-aggrandizement or vanity, instead he was propelled by his deeply held sense of Dharma (sacred duty) to his people and country.[6]


*Shivaji was once offered a very beautiful young lady as a war booty, by an uninformed Maratha captain. She was the daughter-in-law of a defeated Muslim Amir (local ruler) of Kalyan, Maharashtra. Shivaji was reported to have told the lady that her beauty was mesmerizing and that if his own mother was as beautiful as her, he himself would have been as handsome as well. He told her to go back to her family in peace, unmolested and under his protection. His behaviour, was noted by those around him, to be always of the highest moral caliber. He unambiguously embodied the virtues and ideals of a true nobleman*.[6].

Shivaji did not believe in being treated as royalty, in fact he mingled freely with his subjects to spend time with them to maintain a close rapport with them. It is reported that he enjoyed simple meals of crushed onion and bhakris - a type of Indian peasant bread with his foot soldiers (mavlas). His character could be termed as 'down to earth' and while he took his mission with utmost seriousness he did not seemingly consider his own needs to be above his people's welfare or their security.[6] As a result of this Shivaji struck a deep chord with his followers and the citizenary. And the high level of admiration and respect he earned from his followers and subjects sets him apart from most other Indian kings or chieftains in the recorded Indian history. Even today he is venerated in India and especially in the state of Maharashtra with awe and admiration and is viewed as a hero of epic proportion.

Shivaji - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

PS:*Above is our armies tradition about moral values.

While it took only nine months of conflict in East Pakistan(Bangladesh) to see milions of Bengali of East pakistanis flood india as refugees...on the other hand not even nine thousand kashmiris had to leave kashmir as refugee in the last 20 yrs of insurgency there. Except for few health hiccups,there is no danger to the morale of indian army in kashmir.*

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## DaRk WaVe

sonofakila said:


> "HORNY" as in? You mean to say that
> PA professionals are gay?



hey listen that could be solution to IA growing frustration
India just passed 'gay laws'
make your IA gay, they are already using 'semi rigid rods', so its going to help 'em 



> I second that bro.
> 
> (or wait, are you a girl?)



dosent matter what Freekin is ,*but the way you are SECONDING it certainly shows your affiliation with 'semi rigid' Rod
*


> It was interesting to read an article published in 2002 after 8 years.


Thats good if you want more let us know..

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## Iggy

emo_girl said:


> hey listen that could be solution to IA growing frustration
> India just passed 'gay laws'
> make your IA gay, they are already 'semi rigid rods', so its going to help 'em
> 
> 
> 
> dosent matter what Freekin is but the way you are SECONDING it certainly shows your affiliation with 'semi rigid' Rod



So what we do it openly ..you guys do it secretly  hope you didnt forget that you provided links about gays in Pakistan's city in another thread..its natural that some guys have another "preferences' but it doesnt make them less human..why making fun of them? in the near future every country has to accept the reality that gays are very well around us..the sooner the better..


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## DaRk WaVe

seiko said:


> *So what we do it openly you guys do it secretly * hope you didnt forget that you provided links about gays in Pakistan's city in another thread..its natural that some guys have another "preferences' but it doesnt make them less human..why making fun of them



well listen to me seiko, I am not stopping you or your fellow Indians to stop doing things BTW i am no one to stop you, I just gave an advice(you have all the right to call me stupid), i hope its not hurting, No doubt India has got very high number of AIDS patient 

where in this world there are no gays & lesbos, I stand by my words

BTW 'making fun' ehh come on, your not a kid ,right

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## Windjammer

sonofakila said:


> "HORNY" as in? You mean to say that
> PA professionals are gay?



They are definatley not in the sense, however don't let that disappoint you.


Gay Men In India, Gay Chat In India, Gay Personals In India, Gay Dating In India

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## Windjammer

seiko said:


> So what we do it openly ..you guys do it secretly  hope you didnt forget that you provided links about gays in Pakistan's city in another thread..its natural that some guys have another "preferences' but it doesnt make them less human..why making fun of them? in the near future every country has to accept the reality that gays are very well around us..the sooner the better..



Buddy, no one is making fun of them as long as they contain themselves to their environment. It is just so unnatural, i mean if you found a cow on a cow, would you still consider it sacred. No offence. !


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## UchihaCG

@sonofakila: yah man.... they are fag@@ts. He's trying to say most of them are gay. oh, and ... what professionals?



emo_girl said:


> hey listen that could be solution to IA growing frustration
> India just passed 'gay laws'
> make your IA gay, they are already using 'semi rigid rods', so its going to help 'em
> 
> 
> 
> dosent matter what Freekin is but the way you are SECONDING it certainly shows your affiliation with 'semi rigid' Rod
> 
> 
> Thats good if you want more let us know..



 good one emo


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## Iggy

Windjammer said:


> Buddy, no one is making fun of them as long as they contain themselves to their environment. It is just so unnatural, i mean if you found a cow on a cow, *would you still consider it sacred*. No offence. !



No I wont because i am a Christian .Yes i know its unnatural but still we have to accept the reality yaar..gays are among us and there number is increasing..

Any way back to the topics is this kind of disease common among Pakistani soldiers too?what are the measure they are taken?any experts can comment on it?


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## Nemesis

I don't know what is more amusing, the article itself, or emo trying to insult and totally failing at it.



> Any way back to the topics is this kind of disease common among Pakistani soldiers too?what are the measure they are taken?any experts can comment on it?



Anyone with a high pressure job can suffer erectile dysfunction. It's more common than you think. 

Thats why people like me smoke err "organic herbs" and live a chilled out life.


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## DaRk WaVe

Nemesis said:


> I don't know what is more amusing, the article itself, or emo trying to insult and totally failing at it.



failing, I don't think so, the fact you have mentioned my name in your post plus Seiko's post & that other Indian trying to hide his embarrassment by using faces proves i haven't failed hahaha

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## Windjammer

UchihaCG said:


> @sonofakila: yah man.... they are fag@@ts. He's trying to say most of them are gay. oh, and ... what professionals?



Indeed you would know about one kind and at the same time totally oblivious to the Professionals. No surprises there.


----------



## Iggy

emo_girl said:


> well listen to me seiko, I am not stopping you or your fellow Indians to stop doing things BTW i am no one to stop you, I just gave an advice(you have all the right to call me stupid), i hope its not hurting, No doubt India has got very high number of AIDS patient
> 
> where in this world there are no gays & lesbos, I stand by my words
> 
> BTW 'making fun' ehh come on, your not a kid ,right



That was a good advice about making them gay..but as you know its not up to government to make people gays..The government just supported gay people..  and also what you meant by you are not stopping me from doing things??  if you think i am gay then sorry I am not ..I just supports the gay people's cause.I think they were treated as some leeches mainly in South Asia


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## Nemesis

> failing, I don't think so, the fact you have mentioned my name in your post plus Seiko's post & that other Indian trying to hide his embarrassment by using faces proves i haven't failed hahaha



Yes, i singled you out. Does that make you feel special? 

I was genuinely amused by your attempts. Carry on.

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## Iggy

emo_girl said:


> failing, I don't think so, the fact you have mentioned my name in your post plus Seiko's post & that other Indian trying to hide his embarrassment by using faces proves i haven't failed hahaha



My post was to show my support to gay people..people tend to drag them in to discussions to make fun of other people..I oppose it strongly


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## DaRk WaVe

seiko said:


> That was a good advice about making them gay..but as you know its not up to government to make people gays..The government just supported gay people..  and also what you meant by you are not stopping me from doing things??  if you think i am gay then sorry I am not ..I just supports the gay people's cause.I think they were treated as some leeches mainly in South Asia



i told you can call me stupid...

now here you support *GAY CAUSE *, whats the gay cause????

& yeah your country you can do what ever you want, BTW are lesbian rights also legalized? Just a question no offense



> Yes, i singled you out. Does that make you feel special?
> 
> I was genuinely amused by your attempts. Carry on.



SPECIAL 
Ohh thanks, where is the Thanks button, ahh here you go...


----------



## Iggy

emo_girl said:


> i told you can call me stupid...
> 
> now here you support *GAY CAUSE *, whats the gay cause????
> 
> & yeah your country you can do what ever you want, BTW are lesbian rights also legalized? Just a question no offense



Yes I think homosexuality is legalised here ..why should i call you stupid??you are old enough to understand what stupid things you are writing..still you want to write it then what can I do about it ..Name calling wont help much about it right?


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## sonofakila

Windjammer said:


> Indeed you would know about one kind and at the same time totally oblivious to the Professionals. No surprises there.



Hain G?  still trying to figure out the meaning of your very intelligent last phrase.


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## sonofakila

emo_girl said:


> hey listen that could be solution to IA growing frustration
> India just passed 'gay laws'



India passed 'gay laws' ??!!...Since when? 



emo_girl said:


> make your IA gay,



Make IA gay.  Geez are you serious about it? They will be pain in the *** for your PA make no mistake about it

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## Draft

sonofakila said:


> .....They will be pain in the *** for your PA make no mistake about it


That was really funny


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## EjazR

*The Hindu : Opinion / Editorial : Image and reality in Kashmir
*
Early this week, President Asif Ali Zardari promised legislators in Pakistan-administered Jammu and Kashmir that he would honour his father-in-laws promise to wage a thousand year war to seize territory claimed by the country from India. On Wednesday, as two jihadists holed up inside a Srinagar hotel battled police personnel, Indias media were quick to cast the fighting in similarly apocalyptic terms. Barring that it took place around the corner from the offices of Srinagar-based television stations, there was little to distinguish the incident from dozens of similar fire engagements that regularly take place in the State. In fact the news from Jammu and Kashmir for the most part is heartening. Comprehensive official data are yet to be released, but the authoritative South Asia Terrorism Portal has estimated that 55 civilians, 78 security force personnel, and 244 terrorists were killed in the State in 2009  the lowest figure since 1990. The figures show just how ill-founded the claims that J&K is a war-zone now are. *The United States recorded 5.4 homicides per 100,000 population in 2008. In J&K last year, there were 3.7 terrorism-related deaths per 100,000 population, including combatants.*

Policy-makers will, hopefully, continue to draw their lessons from the empirical picture  not television images. There is clear justification for nudging the peace process forward by continuing with careful reductions in troop levels across the State. In addition to cuts in the presence of the Central Reserve Police Force, two divisions of troops were recently withdrawn. In all, more than 30,000 troops have been pulled back since Prime Minister Manmohan Singh took office. It would be dangerous, of course, to lose sight of the real threats that lie ahead. Last months attempted assassination of pro-dialogue secessionist Fazal Haq Qureshi demonstrated that Pakistan-based jihadist groups, as well as their patrons in that countrys military establishment, remain hostile to peace. Pakistans failure to dismantle the infrastructure of jihadist groups has led to continued infiltration across the Line of Control.* Last year saw a year-on-year increase in infiltration for the first time since 2002, with an estimated 106 terrorists crossing over in 433 recorded attempts. (There were 342 reported infiltration attempts in 2008.) However, last years infiltration levels were nowhere near the 1,373 bids recorded in 2003. *Pakistan, it is also true, has so far refused to commit itself to the five principles for a resolution of the dispute arrived at between secret envoys appointed by Prime Minister Singh and former President Pervez Musharraf. Given the turmoil in that country, it is unlikely that any political dispensation will gift its opponents political capital by making concessions on J&K. But even then, there are signs of hope. Few noticed the key small print in President Zardaris speech: that the thousand-year-war he spoke of would involve not guns, but pen and mouth. India must do all it can to encourage and reciprocate this spirit.


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## asq

He said, She said, they said, you said, thing has been going on for 60 years about Kashmir, and will continue till someone with good cheracter and great intentions will become leader in both of the subcontinant countries.

From where I see both sides have moraly corupt leaders, and one must not put too much credenance into their speaches.

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## Windjammer

sonofakila said:


> Hain G?  still trying to figure out the meaning of your very intelligent last phrase.



Haan G !, Stick around your knowledge will enhance in due course.


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## Windjammer

Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonofakila 
.....They will be pain in the *** for your PA make no mistake about it 
That was really funny

"He could be speaking from personal experience."


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## FreekiN

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.


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## Windjammer

Draft said:


> That was really funny



Small things amuse little minds.


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## Hulk

This is how I understand it. 
Violence in Kashmir is related to terrorism. If there would be no terrorist attack their will be no central forces in cities in Kashmir. 
There is no way to achieve zero police attrocities involving Kashmiri police officers too as it is person dependent. 
Some people want to seperate with India and this is mainly due to their religious believes as they cannot stand a rule of Hindu majority country. This explains why they blame everthing on India. In lot of cases it came to be untrue. They also get fund from Pakistan to create anti India feelings. 
Their are some cases of bad behaviour by armed forces which helps the agitation. It is noteworthy that the problem of armed forces is not limited to Kashmir and happens to other parts of India too. This is common in armed forces around the world including Pakistan and USA. The GOI does not favor bad behaviour but cannot prevent it. 
It is not easy to change ownership of land and this will lead to millions killed before it happens. 
So as per violence in Kashmir it can be worked by reducing terrorism. 
As per settlement of issue, India will be flexible if border is not changed. Their is no way border will change without millions killed. 

So if people understand this it will be better for Kashmir, they should know what is achieveable and what is not. 
Apart from change of border


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## Hulk

I just listed down what I see happening and what are the options IMO. When trying to find a solution people should know what will work what will not. I wish Musharaff should have been ruling Pakistan and by now probably we would been looking for a solution.


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## Kompromat

emo_girl said:


> hey listen that could be solution to IA growing frustration
> India just passed 'gay laws'
> *make your IA gay*, they are already using 'semi rigid rods', so its going to help 'em



*Emo i am afraid it is not going to help them either ,becharay*


*Condoms 'too big' for Indian men 
By Damian Grammaticus 
BBC News, Delhi *



There is a "lack of awareness" over condom sizes

A survey of more than 1,000 men in India has concluded that condoms made according to international sizes are too large for a majority of Indian men. 

The study found that more than half of the men measured had penises that were shorter than international standards for condoms. 

It has led to a call for condoms of mixed sizes to be made more widely available in India. 

The two-year study was carried out by the Indian Council of Medical Research. 

Over 1,200 volunteers from the length and breadth of the country had their penises measured precisely, down to the last millimetre. 

The scientists even checked their sample was representative of India as a whole in terms of class, religion and urban and rural dwellers. 

The conclusion of all this scientific endeavour is that about 60&#37; of Indian men have penises which are between three and five centimetres shorter than international standards used in condom manufacture. 

Doctor Chander Puri, a specialist in reproductive health at the Indian Council of Medical Research, told the BBC there was an obvious need in India for custom-made condoms, as most of those currently on sale are too large. 

The issue is serious because about one in every five times a condom is used in India it either falls off or tears, an extremely high failure rate. 

*And the country already has the highest number of HIV infections of any nation. *

'Not a problem' 

Mr Puri said that since Indians would be embarrassed about going to a chemist to ask for smaller condoms there should be vending machines dispensing different sizes all around the country. 

"Smaller condoms are on sale in India. But there is a lack of awareness that different sizes are available. There is anxiety talking about the issue. And normally one feels shy to go to a chemist's shop and ask for a smaller size condom." 

But Indian men need not be concerned about measuring up internationally according to Sunil Mehra, the former editor of the Indian version of the men's magazine Maxim...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6161691.stm


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## UchihaCG

indianrabbit said:


> I just listed down what I see happening and what are the options IMO. When trying to find a solution people should know what will work what will not. I wish Musharaff should have been ruling Pakistan and by now probably we would been looking for a solution.



True, Mushy would've attempted for something.... Right now, Pakistan is just staging High drama. And Zardari got his own probs


----------



## Kompromat

sonofakila said:


> India passed 'gay laws' ??!!...Since when?



Here you go Kiddo..

A victory for gay rights in India | Balaji Ravichandran | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk


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## Kompromat




----------



## Iggy

Black blood said:


> Here you go Kiddo..
> 
> A victory for gay rights in India | Balaji Ravichandran | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk



Actually only Delhi high court legalised the homosexuality marriages..so its unlawfull only in Delhi I think ..no other states


----------



## Iggy

Black blood said:


> *Emo i am afraid it is not going to help them either ,becharay*
> 
> 
> *Condoms 'too big' for Indian men
> By Damian Grammaticus
> BBC News, Delhi *
> 
> 
> 
> There is a "lack of awareness" over condom sizes
> 
> A survey of more than 1,000 men in India has concluded that condoms made according to international sizes are too large for a majority of Indian men.
> 
> The study found that more than half of the men measured had penises that were shorter than international standards for condoms.
> 
> It has led to a call for condoms of mixed sizes to be made more widely available in India.
> 
> The two-year study was carried out by the Indian Council of Medical Research.
> 
> Over 1,200 volunteers from the length and breadth of the country had their penises measured precisely, down to the last millimetre.
> 
> The scientists even checked their sample was representative of India as a whole in terms of class, religion and urban and rural dwellers.
> 
> The conclusion of all this scientific endeavour is that about 60% of Indian men have penises which are between three and five centimetres shorter than international standards used in condom manufacture.
> 
> Doctor Chander Puri, a specialist in reproductive health at the Indian Council of Medical Research, told the BBC there was an obvious need in India for custom-made condoms, as most of those currently on sale are too large.
> 
> The issue is serious because about one in every five times a condom is used in India it either falls off or tears, an extremely high failure rate.
> 
> *And the country already has the highest number of HIV infections of any nation. *
> 
> 'Not a problem'
> 
> Mr Puri said that since Indians would be embarrassed about going to a chemist to ask for smaller condoms there should be vending machines dispensing different sizes all around the country.
> 
> "Smaller condoms are on sale in India. But there is a lack of awareness that different sizes are available. There is anxiety talking about the issue. And normally one feels shy to go to a chemist's shop and ask for a smaller size condom."
> 
> But Indian men need not be concerned about measuring up internationally according to Sunil Mehra, the former editor of the Indian version of the men's magazine Maxim...
> 
> BBC NEWS | South Asia | Condoms 'too big' for Indian men




Black blood bro why are you so concerned about the Dicks of the Indians  the MNC's will produce condoms suitable for the size of our Dicks dont worry


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## Khajur

seiko said:


> Actually only Delhi high court legalised the homosexuality marriages..so its unlawfull only in Delhi I think ..no other states



No ,its legalised all over india now after the Delhi high court judgement.

State High court judgements binding every where in india unless its quashed by supreme court of india .

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## Awesome

Old news guys.


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## Kompromat




----------



## hembo

*Yasin Malik heckled by protestors in Delhi*
Updated on Monday, January 11, 2010, 12:54 IST

New Delhi: The Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) chairman Yasin Malik was heckled by a group of protestors on Monday during the two-day India-Pakistan peace conference being held at India International Center (IIC) here.

According to reports, the separatist leader was delivering a key-note speech on the road map towards peace between the two hostile nations, when he was interrupted by some unidentified youths.

What started as a normal interaction with the JKLF leader soon turned out to be an altercation where in Malik was accused of supporting anti-India activities, misguiding people and politicising sensational issues just in the name of building peace.

The protestors then raised slogans against Malik. In the full glare of media, Malik was accused of raping a nurse and escaping justice due to his political influence.

However, the Delhi Police later arrested two protestors, they are now being interrogated. The police also had to resort to mild lathi charge to disperse the agitating crowd.

India-Pak Conference: A Road Map towards Peace&#8217; is being organized by a number of organizations and eminent people in India at the India International Center (IIC) from 10-12 January 2010.

Eminent speakers like Aitzaz Ahsan, Asma Jehangir, Ayesha Siddiqua, IA Rehman from Pakistan and Kuldip Nayar, Salman Haider, Admiral Ramdas, Mahesh Bhatt, Muchkund Dubey are participating in the conference.









Police manhandled Kashmiri Pandit Youth


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## hembo

*China taking over our land, Ladakh tells home ministry*

China has occupied large swathes of Indian territory in the Ladakh region of Jammu and Kashmir over the years, says a note from the Leh district administration to the home ministry.

This is mainly due to the Line of Actual Control (LAC) that separates India and China in this area not being clearly demarcated, the note adds.

The note was prepared after a meeting of the district administration with representatives of the army and the Indo-Tibetan Border Police.

In December 2008, shepherds in the Chumur area of Ladakh were shooed away by Chinese troops, who uprooted their tents and warned them not to return.

The note says India has lost substantial amount of land in the last two decades. Sources said that China is taking advantage of the  disputed territory status of 150 km of 646 km long LAC in Ladakh sector and increasing its presence closer and closer to the Indian side.

The report has highlighted the intimidatory tactics of the Chinese troops which follows a pattern of pushing the nomads from one place to another  starting with Nang Tsang in 1987, Na Kangai in 1991, Lugba Serding in 1994 and so on. This stretch in 350 Km of Leh itself explains how 12 km long stretch was lost in seven years.

The fact is Chinese are pushing us back from our own territory, said Chering Dorjay, Chief Executive Councillor of Ladakh Autonomous Hill Development Council.


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## mrwarrior006

this an serious matter
our gov needs to do something about it


----------



## RiazHaq

People's Democratic Party leader Mehbooba Mufti has alleged the recent Srinagar attack was an attempt by "some government agency" to sabotage the efforts to withdraw troops from the state.

"There are some vested interests who are trying to sabotage troop withdrawal in J&K. Serious thought should be given to whether it's militants who don't want the troops to be withdrawn from the state or it's some government agency who also have a hand in sabotaging any move for troops withdrawal," she said, a few hours after security forces killed the two militants who were holed up in a Srinagar hotel.

Mufti is not alone in her belief about "government agency" sabotaging positive movement in Kashmir. SM Mushrif, former Maharashtra police chief who knows a lot more about how power works in India than any casual observer, says it is not Sonia Gandhi, Manmohan Singh or Rahul Gandhi but the IB and RAW that really have much more power to manipulate what happens. One example is the blasts in Samjhauta Express, which the IB said was carried out by Pakistan&#8217;s ISI. Mushrif quotes a report in The Times of India that said, &#8220;the Centre had blamed the ISI on the basis of the IB&#8217;s findings.&#8221; However, during a narco-analysis test under Karkare, Lt. Col. Purohit had admitted having supplied the RDX used in the blast. The IB, which draws its power from its proximity to the Prime Minister (its director briefs the PM every morning for half an hour), did not want Karkare&#8217;s investigation that blew the cover off the IB&#8217;s shenanigans, to continue.

We will probably never know who killed Karkare and why. It'll remain a mystery, because it serves the interests of Hindutva-dominated Indian establishment.

Haq's Musings: Terror in India--Who Killed Karkare?


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## EjazR

*Mehbooba Mufti wary of militant activity following troop cut initiatives*

Jammu, Jan 8 (ANI): People&#8217;s Democratic Party (PDP) President Mehbooba Muftihas expressed apprehension over rise in militant activity whenever there is an announcement of troop withdrawal from the restive region.

Talking to reporters here on Thursday, Mufti said: &#8220;I just want to know, why there is always some kind of attack as soon as there is an intention of troop withdrawal. So do we take that the militants want the troops to stay, that is why they attack as soon as there is an announcement.&#8221;

Mufti said the troops cut was a corollary to the remarkable 65 percent turnout during the 2008 Assembly elections.

*&#8220;Maybe some militant groups don&#8217;t want the troop withdrawal, maybe somebody in the agencies don&#8217;t want the troop withdrawal. So I think for their interests, they become one at this point of time. But I would say that the withdrawal of troops is the best compliment that you can pay to the people of Jammu and Kashmir, who have voted in huge numbers,&#8221; she added.*

Defence Minister A. K. Antony last month announced that 30,000 troops had been withdrawn from the State in the wake of improving security situation. (ANI)

------------------------------

See how what Mehbooba Mufti said looks quite different when you quote her correctly and fully.

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## EjazR

*Reunite JK: Sajad Lone | Greater Kashmir Daily English Newspaper from Kashmir Online News Channel - Daily News - Live Updates*

New Delhi, Jan 11: Chairman of the Peoples Conference, Sajad Gani Lone, on Monday urged India and Pakistan to give up their extreme positions and reunite the divided Jammu and Kashmir.
Speaking on the second day of the 3-day Pak-India Conference on peace, Lone said it was not possible for India and Pakistan to give up even an inch of land. But we can still reunite the divided Jammu and Kashmir without sticking to our extreme positions? Yes, we can if we have a political will on all the three sides- India, Pakistan and Kashmir. Let economy do that. Let trade do that.
Lets have a power sharing evolution. A new set of arrangements which rises above the monotony of sovereignty, said Lone, the only separatist leader who has drafted a resolution Achievable Nationhood on the Kashmir issue.
Lone said it was easy to contain violence but difficult to beat it. You cannot defeat it without delivering on your promises.
He said that in Jammu and Kashmir sentiments varied even as a majority was for independence. The problem is too complex more than it appears to be, Lone said.
Pakistan speaks about United Nation resolutions but only when it comes to Jammu and Kashmir. What about the other regions under its occupation and the part it has gifted to China, he said, while referring to territory, including the northern areas of Gilgit-Baltistan.
Can we arrive at an affordable position where all these solution converge? There may be a point definitely, he added.
He said the agony of being a Kashmiri outside Kashmir was tough to bear. My political grammar has to be politically correct for six months before I seek Pakistan visa to meet my kids there, said Lone, who is married to the daughter of the JKLF leader, Ammanullah Khan. And if my words are not palatable to India then my wife and kids are denied visa, he rued.
Sajad was at his humorous best  but a tongue in cheek. He said his entry to politics was an orphaned one.
I never wanted to but after my fathers assassination I had to (join the politics), he said.
And you know its never good to have an orphaned entry. And the first thing you have to face is your uncles. Until the other day who were my uncles, I mean the people I used to call uncles, began giving me a tough time. They really gave me a tough time, he said.
These relationships he said should be interlocking, interdependent, irreversible, and complimentary.

----------------------
Sajjad Lone was one of the sepratists leader who contested Lok Sabha polls. His father was also allegedly shot dead by Al Omar militant group, priamry suspect being Rafiq Ahmad Ledri according to him.


----------



## hembo

*More troops to be reduced in Kashmir*
Tue, Jan 12 08:25 PM

Jammu, Jan 12 (IANS) Defence Minister A.K. Antony Tuesday hinted at a further reduction of troops in Jammu and Kashmir in the light of the 'improved situation' in the state, which is battling terrorist violence for the past 20 years.

This would be in addition to the 30,000 troops that have been moved out of Jammu and Kashmir in the past two years.

These indications became known when Antony told a meeting at the unified headquarters here that the state police would have to take over the responsibility of the security of cities and major towns of the state.

The defence minister also made it clear that the paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) would take over the responsibility of the road opening parties and security of National Highway 1-A, the 294-km-long Jammu-Srinagar highway that is lifeline of the Valley and also for the troops stationed in the Kashmir and Ladakh divisions.

Antony said with the improvement in the security situation, the time had come for the state police to be given far greater responsibilities, particularly in major towns, in tackling terrorism in the state.

However, 'the handing over of the responsibility must be meticulously planned and undertaken in a gradual and phased manner', a defence ministry statement quoted Antony as saying.

He said on the request of the defence ministry, the home ministry had issued instructions to the CRPF to take over the entire responsibility of opening of roads on Jammu-Srinagar National Highway 1-A from January 15.

'This has been done to reduce the visibility of the army, without in any way diluting our counter-terrorist grid,' Antony said.

He said the synergy and hard work put in by the various security agencies, as also the local people, has considerably brought down the 'level of violence' in Kashmir, though the infiltration attempts had increased.

'The year 2010 may prove to be a crucial one as forces inimical to stability and peace in J&K would make all-out efforts to neutralise the gains of 2008 and 2009, when the state witnessed considerable improvement in the security situation.

'The incidents of the first week of January in the Valley are indicative of the shape of things to come,' the defence minister said, referring to the terrorist siege in Srinagar's Lal Chowk area that lasted some 23 hours before the security forces gunned down the two fidayeen attackers.


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## asq

Indian rabit and uchihaCG.

from your point I see that their will never be peace between India and Pakistan, As we the Pakistanis think that india took over forcibaly many states just after the partition. I am not going to repeat here what has been repeated million times.

All Inda has to do is to prove beyond the shadow of doubt what u guys tell me that kashmiris have no problem staying with Indian, THAN HOLD THE PELBICITE BE DONE WITH IT. 

After all India call itself the biggest Democracy of the wolrd, than what is the problem in holding free and fair plebicite. Once it is done as per U.N. mandate, it will help the continant and the killing of innocent people will stop.

Read and learn the truth.

http://hellinparadise.150m.com/dralistairlamb.htm

http://hellinparadise.150m.com/historic.htm

Or stop calling yourselfs the biggest Democracy of the world.


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## notsuperstitious

^^^

We are, and we, through our elected representatives have spoken about Kashmir.


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## pagans

Here is Arundhati Roy is the celebrated author of The God of Small Things' one the most celebrated Indian author says "F**K INDIA " when it comes to Kashmir. 

I humbly present the article for the reading pleasure of my Pakistani Muslim friends.

Arundhati Roy is the celebrated author of The God of Small Things and winner of the prestigious Booker Prize. The New York Times calls her, "India's most impassioned critic of globalization and American influence." She is the winner of the Lannan Award for Cultural Freedom. Her latest books are The Checkbook & the Cruise Missile, with David Barsamian, and An Ordinary Person's Guide to Empire.

David Barsamian: Youve been spending at lot of time in Kashmir and you were just there again. There has been a series of elections over the last couple of months, and these elections have been heralded, at least by the mainstream press here in India, as a great referendum for freedom and democracy and a rebuke for the separatists. What is your understanding of what exactly happened in terms of the elections?

Arundhati Roy: Really, the difficulty about it, the thing I worry most about, is losing the language with which to describe whats happening there. Because its almost as though you need a deep knowledge of whats going on there to be able to understand what happened. In August, even then I was there, and all over the world it has been reported, there was an incredible spontaneous uprising, and there were hundreds of thousands of people on the streets. This time I was there in the silence, and still I could hear that noise in my head, Azadi, azadi, azadi. The fruit sellers were weighing their fruit chanting Azadi, azadi. The people on the buses, the children on the streets. It was as if the sky was chanting that.

David Barsamian: Azadi means freedom.

Arundhati Roy: Azadi means freedom. Azadi means a lot of things: freedom in a very nuanced way, because that in itself is a very contested term in Kashmir. And then that nonviolent uprisingand that uprising was actually presented to the leaders, the, quote, unquote, leaders of the separatist movement by the people. It wasnt that the leaders led the movement, but the people really came and dusted off the mothballs and pulled the leaders out onto the street and presented them with a kind of revolution.

The Indian governments response to that was the harshest curfew that has ever been imposed in Kashmir. Days and days and days together, razor wire, steel walls that were put in, people were prevented from moving between the districts, between villages. A lot of Kashmiris were killed in the firings. I dont know if I need to keep on saying this because everyone knows it now, but still, for the recordmore than half a million soldiers in the valley of Kashmir, which somebody in America wrote saying it was the equivalent of the entire U.S. Army and the entire Marine Corps deployed in Minnesota, sort of like that; 165,000 American soldiers in Iraq. Between 500,000 and 700,000 Indian security personnel in the valley of Kashmir. So the way the army is deployed there, I think it would take them less than half an hour to just be everywhere in Kashmir, because they are spread out and they are patrolling all the time. So to put down this uprising wasnt hard for them in a military sense. So that was August.

Then there was a big debate about whether or not to call elections, because everybody feared that there would be a complete boycott of the elections, which have been more or less boycotted in past. The separatists called for a boycott. And to everybodys shock and surprise, there was a huge turnout in the elections. I think nobody could understand exactly what had happened. Where had that sentiment gone? Where was that outburst of a desire for freedom that was being expressed from the street? How did it suddenly disappear? And it was quite interesting that I started getting calls from people.

The other thing is that it was very interesting in the way in which the election was called. A couple of districts in Jammu are Hindu-dominated, the BJP has not ever been in power there, but still there was a sort of political divide between these districts in Jammu and the Kashmir valley. Then there is Ladakh, there is Doda and Kishtwari.

David Barsamian: The BJP being the Bharatiya Janata Party, the right-wing Hindu nationalist party.

Arundhati Roy: And there are some parts of the Kashmir valley which are under the boot of the army. If you travel in Kashmir, you see that there the army controls the inhalation and the exhalation. It controls everything. So it was pretty brilliant, if you look at it from the Indian governments point of view, the way the elections were called. These places where traditionally the Armys fiat rules went to the polls first and so on. Without wanting to get into too much detail to an audience thats not familiar with this, the point is that there was a big turnout. Except in the cities. In almost all the cities and towns the turnout was low, but in the villages the turnout was very high.

So I went back to Kashmir just now just to understand for myself what it was all about. Of course, the first thing that happened was that the last stage of the polling in Srinagar was due to happen, and so the police put me under house arrest, which revealed more than it hid, because if you can imagine, theyre so frightened of anybody who has a point of view different from that of the Indian state seeing anything. Before the polls happened, they did a massive round of arrests. They arrested not just the leaders of the Hurriyat, which is the separatist groups, but all the workers, all the activists, all the young people who were seen to have led these protests. Hundreds of people were put into jail.

A lot of even liberal Indians say that the polls were free and fair. First of all, the first question you have to ask yourself is, when you have that kind of a densely deployed army, can you have free and fair elections? Is it at all possible? Election observers and liberal Indians went there and they didnt see people being pushed to the polling booths on the end of a bayonet, so they said there was no coercion. But the thing is, now the people of Kashmir have internalized, what it means to live in an occupation and how to deal with it. And they do have a long-term view, because they do have to survive. So one of the things that happened was that the main party, the National Conference, that is now coming into power campaigned very openly saying that these elections have nothing to do with azadi; theyre just about bread and butter issues. That was one thing that happened.

David Barsamian: Sarak, pani andwhat was the slogan?

Arundhati Roy: Sarak, pani, bijli. It means roads, water, and electricity. So I think that quite explains the fact that in urban areas, where people are more secure, they didnt feel the need to come out and vote, whereas in rural areas peopleits not actually sarak, pani, and bijli so much as a thin layer of protection from this occupation. For example, when the SOG, which is the dreaded Special Operations Group, goes and picks up somebody, you have to have somebody to appeal to. And that somebody is the politician. So, for example, to give you an example, some people were telling me of how there is one particular member of the legislative assembly who keeps getting voted back to power. His modus operandi is, just before the elections he organizes for the army to pick up five or six people, young men, from that area. Then the people go and petition him. Then he goes and gets them released and earns their eternal gratitude. These are all sort of invisible things that happen.

There are many other reasons. For example, just now the stories are emerging that in this election, more than in any other election, there were hundreds, hundreds of candidates who were fielded. Each of them, in a slightly feudal area, has a certain number of relatives and friends who come and vote for them. Because the main thing in these elections was the government was very keen to have a turnout, regardless of what happened, to show that this is a democracy. In fact, the day I left Kashmir all these defeated independent candidates were having a press conference in this restaurant called Ahdoos talking about how they had all been paid by the Intelligence Bureau sums of money to stand for election, and then some of them werent given that money, so now they are disgruntled.

Then there are other issues. For example, there is this group of renegades known as Ikhwanis, former militants who turned into very dreaded killers working for the government. Some Ikhwanis and sometimes Ikhwanis sons were standing for election. And people went out to vote against them so that they would not be represented by them.

So there are a number of factors. But its true that even without these factors, people did come out and vote. For me, the way I see it is that people realize that theyre lying on a bed of nails, and these elections are like a little, thin layer of sponge over the bed of nails, a way of getting by, a way of continuing to live. They are not in any way going to permanently solve the problem of Kashmir. What the Indian government has done over and over again over the decades is to do this kind of crisis management, sweep things under the carpet, and then hope that it will go away. Then it resurfaces in a different way, in a different form. So I was there when the sort of free and fair press of the mighty government of India arrived there to gloat over these elections, people who knew nothing about Kashmir, who were coming there to give the commentary, saying the most absurd things about how this was the end of the freedom movement.

To me, the saddest thing was that I felt all the Kashmiris, I spoke to, without exception said, Weve done this to ourselves. And I felt that this sort of psychological war on them, this lowering of their self-esteem, this forcing them to participate in tactics of survival which eventually make them despise themselves was really the deepest form of colonialism. Someone said, We feel like Shias at Muharram (a religious holiday marking the martyrdom of Imam Hussein). We whip ourselves and then we draw our own blood and then the Indian propaganda machine comes and puts salt in our wounds. Thats how a lot of people said they felt.

Its very difficult to understand the full extent of this, except that what people really want is being thwarted again and again and again. Everybody is speaking on behalf of people. As a citizen of India, I feel uncomfortable with that. I feel that we cant gloat about doing this to somebody. Of course you can manage it. Of course India will always be able to manage it, because its a small valley. But, then again, I dont think that it will always be possible to manage it, because eventually I do think that the price of holding down the Kashmir valley, which was being paid mostly by Indian soldiers, who are mostly poor people from India who dont count, was suddenly being paid by the Indian elite in five-star hotels in Bombay. That puts a totally different spin on things.

David Barsamian: You write that the Indian military occupation of Kashmir makes monsters of us all. What do you mean by that?

Arundhati Roy: It makes us complicit in the holding down by military force of a people, it makes us complicit in the propaganda, it makes us complicit in the lies. And eventually it makes us people who are unable to look things in the eye.

David Barsamian: You say that it allows Hindu chauvinists to target and victimize Muslims in other parts of the country.

Arundhati Roy: One of the things that happened in the early 1990s in Kashmir was that when the elections were rigged in 1987, which led to the movement in Kashmir which existed beforehand, suddenly it had become a militant movement, and there were young men rising up with arms, young men crossing the border to Pakistan to train and come back. One of the fallouts of that was the exodus of the small community of Kashmiri Pandits, or Kashmiri Hindus, from the valley. Because the king who signed the accession document was a Hindu ruler over Muslim subjects, and therefore this small minority of Hindu Kashmiris was a powerful minority. But because they feared for their safety, rightly so, and because the governor, Jagmohan, quite unforgivably said that the government couldnt protect them, they sort of facilitated the exit of these Hindu Pandits from the valley. The poor among them ended up living in refugee camps in Jammu. They still live in refugee campus in Jammu.

You must remember that it was exactly at the time that a lot of things were happening geographically in this area. It was the Taliban coming to power in Afghanistan, the BJP with L. K. Advani leading this rath yatra towards the demolition of the Babri Masjid and the rise of Hindu chauvinism. So these Kashmiri Pandits were wielded like a club by Hindu chauvinists in India and used to whip up this anti-Muslim sentiment. Of course, that orgy of hatred, that whole manifesto of hatred of the BJP, eventually led to the destruction of the Babri Masjid, the coming to power of the BJP, the genocide against Muslims in Gujarat, the bombings in Bombay in retaliation for the Babri Masjid, and the genocide in Bombay against Muslims by the Shiv Sena
(a Maharashtra-based Marathi nationalist group), and the whole rise of this kind of ugly, divisive politics.

So if you were to question the average Indian, the only thing they know is that there are terrorists in Kashmir. They wouldnt be able to tell you that 60,000 or 70,000 people have died in this war. They wouldnt be able to tell you about the dubious morality of India holding on to this place. They say Kashmir is an atut ang, which means an inseparable limb of India.

David Barsamian: And there are also close to 10,000 people are missing.

Arundhati Roy: That have disappeared. The point is that it doesnt seem to occur to anyone that Kashmir was never a part of India. It was an independent kingdom. So even today, when they gloat about elections, if you say, "Why dont you have a referendum?" as was promised by the U.N., they say, "Oh, thats an old cliché. How can you ask that? Things have moved on from then."

David Barsamian: Tell me, the people that you spoke to there, what do they think of Pakistan?

Arundhati Roy: When I was there in AugustIve written about it in this piece that you referred toalong with Hum Kya Chatey? Azadi, which means, What do we want? We want freedom, there was an equal amount of Jeeve, Jeeve, Pakistan! meaning Long live Pakistan, Pakistan, Pakistan, Pakistan.

Yet I think that if you question people, there were many reasons for that. One was that what they think of Pakistan is, to put it in some crude way, if there was some referendum where people were given the option of India, Pakistan, or azadi, I imagine that an overwhelming majority would say azadi. If they were given only an option between India and Pakistan, I thinkIm no one to say this, but Im just saying my gut feeling is that Pakistan would win hands down. But what India says is Pakistan is fueling terrorism in Kashmir. I think people see Pakistan as somewhat self-serving yet very important support for the freedom movement in Kashmir. People understand that its self-serving, but people still see it as support for what they see as a freedom movement.

David Barsamian: And there is awareness also that the state there is not only exploding but imploding.

Arundhati Roy: I think that there is awareness of that. Yet, the real question is that what people have experienced is the brutality of the Indian state, so at this point that is foregrounded for people in Kashmir. Its a bit theoretical to say, but maybe it will be worse for them. They say, Then thats our problem. Why are you worried about our problems? The Kashmiris, even when they are not being political, if you go around Kashmir, they ask you, Have you come from India? They dont consider themselves Indians.

Its been a very difficult time for Muslims in India. So to imagine that Muslims would be longing to be a part of India when they dont have to be is a hallucination. Indian Muslims have a completely different problem from Kashmiris. Indian Muslims have a different issue here, because they have to live here and they have to find peace in this almost fascist atmosphere. But Kashmiris see themselves as people who have a choice. They dont have to put their heads down and kiss ***. You have to find a different way of saying that.

David Barsamian: You conclude that article that India needs azadi from Kashmir just as much if not more than Kashmir needs azadi from India.

Arundhati Roy: I think there was something almost prescient there. I wrote thisI dont remember when it was publishedin late August or September. And I did sense that there wasnt any possibility of the Indian stateand its wrong for me to just say the Indian state, because Indian society in places like Gujarat and Maharashtra or even in Bombayto continue to marginalize such a vast majorityonly in India can 150 million people be a minority, 150 million Muslims in Indiaand to continue to bulldoze this population in Kashmir. Eventually all that can come out of it is destruction. All that come out of it is people wanting to take you down with them. If you push them to a stage where there is no possibility of any access to justice, even if 99% of them decide to put their heads down and suffer, 1% is enough to destroy life as you knew it.

Conversation on Kashmir with Arundhati Roy and David Barsamian


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## RobbieS

A lot of what she says makes sense. For somebody who has seen first hand the brutality in Punjab during the 80's I can understand what it feels like to live in a terrorized and control state 24 hours.

I hope the Kashmir issue gets resolved soon.


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## pagans

*Who needs Zaid Hameed when we have Arundhati Roy ?*


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## pagans

*if there was some referendum where people were given the option of India, Pakistan, or azadi, I imagine that an overwhelming majority would say azadi. If they were given only an option between India and Pakistan, I thinkIm no one to say this, but Im just saying my gut feeling is that Pakistan would win hands down.*


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## pagans

Kashmir needs freedom from India: Arundhati Roy
Kashmir needs freedom from India: Arundhati Roy - India - The Times of India


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## pagans

FYI Arundhati Roy is a Keralite.. Nowadays Keralites are proving to great traitors to India.


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## ek_indian

^^^

My take is: AR is badly pissed off with GoI. 
It is a known thing that she is a maoist supporter. Now since GoI is taking against them it is very obvious from her to have these response.

Few links to read:

Maoists justified in taking up arms: Arundhati Roy

Arundhati Roy urges Centre to drop armed action against Maoist

Govt at war with Naxals to aid MNCs: Arundhati


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## RobbieS

pagans said:


> *Who needs Zaid Hameed when we have Arundhati Roy ?*



They cant be compared dude. One is a raving mad war monger while the other is a well known author and activist known the world over. And she isn't asking for war or more violence. If at all she makes a strong case for peace.

Its good to be patriotic but you should let your emotions take a break once in a while. It will allow you to step back and look at things through a balanced perspective.

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## Khajur

RobbieS said:


> A lot of what she says makes sense. For somebody who has seen first hand the brutality in Punjab during the 80's I can understand what it feels like to live in a terrorized and control state 24 hours.
> 
> *I hope the Kashmir issue gets resolved soon*.



The question why do have the situation we have for past so many yr starting from 1988.

The point why and how militancy started in kashmir after 1988 ??Arundhati Roy say its because of bad rigged election of 1986.No ,kashmir had many rigged elections before that too,but there was no militancy then.

The thing is militancy started once the Soviet left Afghanistan and jihad become a proven political tool for pakistan to be used as conclift resolution in Kashmir,which its failed to snatch away after many wars.

Every body want Azadi due to different race,religion ,language ...heck ,even due to diffefernt interpretation of the same religion e,g Pakistan Taliban ,all they want is to be left alone in NWFP.

If any kashmiri want Azadi,he is azad to go anywhere to choose to go.But cant take Kashmir away india...that too because he is muslim. Non sense...even after partition we are still left with equal number of muslim as in pakistan today.We are aready a secular and free country with every citizen having equal right irrespective of race,religion,caste,lingustic affiliation.We dont give **** about azadi.Any harming this nations integrety would be punished.If we raise arms to scare us...u'll loose ur neck.*That our resolution abou kashmir issue*.


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## Khajur

pagans said:


> Kashmir needs freedom from India: Arundhati Roy
> Kashmir needs freedom from India: Arundhati Roy - India - The Times of India



Pagan, R u sure u are pagan??

*I've a strong feeling that u practice one of the Abrahamic religion.*


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## Khajur

ek_indian said:


> ^^^
> 
> My take is: AR is badly pissed off with GoI.
> It is a known thing that she is a maoist supporter. Now since GoI is taking against them it is very obvious from her to have these response.
> 
> Few links to read:
> 
> Maoists justified in taking up arms: Arundhati Roy
> 
> Arundhati Roy urges Centre to drop armed action against Maoist
> 
> Govt at war with Naxals to aid MNCs: Arundhati



She is a attention craving freak...someone who wants to remain in news.Thats why she she always picks up some controversial subject...she sat with the Narmada Bachou agitation for sometime ,but left it as Medha Patker didnt give any the leash.

Tell me if she had ever suggest any solution to any issue including kashmir???
No , she know only to blame GOI which is easliest thing to do.

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## RobbieS

Khajur said:


> The question why do have the situation we have for past so many yr starting from 1988.
> 
> The point why and how militancy started in kashmir after 1988 ??Arundhati Roy say its because of bad rigged election of 1986.No ,kashmir had many rigged elections before that too,but there was no militancy then.
> 
> The thing is militancy started once the Soviet left Afghanistan and jihad become a proven political tool for pakistan to be used as conclift resolution in Kashmir,which its failed to snatch away after many wars.
> 
> Every body want Azadi due to different race,religion ,language ...heck ,even due to diffefernt interpretation of the same religion e,g Pakistan Taliban ,all they want is to be left alone in NWFP.
> 
> If any kashmiri want Azadi,he is azad to go anywhere to choose to go.But cant take Kashmir away india...that too because he is muslim. Non sense...even after partition we are still left with equal number of muslim as in pakistan today.We are aready a secular and free country with every citizen having equal right irrespective of race,religion,caste,lingustic affiliation.We dont give **** about azadi.Any harming this nations integrety would be punished.If we raise arms to scare us...u'll loose ur neck.*That our resolution abou kashmir issue*.



Agreed, militancy in Kashmir couldnt have survived without Pakistani help. But we have to agree that there were youth ready to be trained and fight in Kashmir. There were people ready to take arms for their cause. Without them Pakistani support would have have been useless.

And things got to that situation through sustained neglect and high handedness by the govt. Yes elections were rigged earlier too and there was resentment simmering in people. This resentment boiled over when they saw another election being rigged in 1988. But I agree with you that it wasn't the only factor. A ready terror/guerrilla warfare infrastructure across the border built up through tactics, tried and tested in Afghanistan played a major role.

I too hold India's territorial and cultural integrity with the utmost respect. But past wrongs have to be addressed and hearts have to be won in Kashmir.


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## Khajur

RobbieS said:


> Agreed, militancy in Kashmir couldnt have survived without Pakistani help. But we have to agree that there were youth ready to be trained and fight in Kashmir. There were people ready to take arms for their cause. Without them Pakistani support would have have been useless.
> 
> And things got to that situation through sustained neglect and high handedness by the govt. Yes elections were rigged earlier too and there was resentment simmering in people. This resentment boiled over when they saw another election being rigged in 1988. But I agree with you that it wasn't the only factor. A ready terror/guerrilla warfare infrastructure across the border built up through tactics, tried and tested in Afghanistan played a major role.
> 
> I too hold India's territorial and cultural integrity with the utmost respect. But past wrongs have to be addressed and hearts have to be won in Kashmir.



IS it ever difficult to motivate brainwash some misguided youth to form a guerilla force be it communiust,jehadist ,casteist(like in Bihar)??

Now,If u add the the lure of eternal paradise telling them u become a gazi as soon as u pull the trigger to kill a kafir and go straight to jannat for ur Shadadat.Then enticement is just irresistable for any youth who dont have much bright future before him in any case.


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## RobbieS

Khajur said:


> IS it ever difficult to motivate brainwash some misguided youth to form a guerilla force be it communiust,jehadist ,casteist(like in Bihar)??
> 
> Now,If u add the the lure of eternal paradise telling them u become a gazi as soon as u pull the trigger to kill a kafir and go straight to jannat for ur Shadadat.Then enticement is just irresistable for any youth who dont have much bright future before him in any case.



Believe me it is not that simple. Brainwashing as we call it can only happen if there is "material" ready for it. Youth in Kashmir were never poor nor were they all uneducated.

I draw a certain amount of parallel with the Khalistan movement in Punjab, both are religion based and had outside support. I know of acquaintances who were brilliant students, toppers in their class who went underground for the cause and now live in Canada. Many of them were engineers and science students. My electrical engineering professor used to tell a story about his days in Guru Nanak Eng. college, Ludhiana the oldest engg college in Punjab. In his days in the 80's the army conducted raids on the campus almost every month and they would find AK-47s in the hostel rooms under the beds. And mind you we didnt have a lot of engg. colleges in those days. So these guys were all the top of the cream in Punjab.I have visited the college and its the only college that I know of that still has a police station inside its campus. 

I dont pretend to know the inside out of the situation in Kashmir really well, but I views are on the basis of personal experiences. Visits to Kashmir and long chats over tea with Kashmiri friends both in Delhi and Canada.

I don't intend to espouse the cause of any of the people or groups that took up arms against the state. All I want to convey is that things run deeper than they seem

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## asq

Than the argument continues and killing of innocnts goes on as you Indians are not willing to come to term about an election/plbecite done to satisfy Pakistan, we are not satisfied with your staged elections and we strongly disaree.

Your refusal is a proof that your elections are staged and are not free and fair, other wise you would have no problems holding them as specified by U.N. as per your statemkent that Kashmiris have spken through elections.

If your election are legit than howcome you have to maintaqin a force of half million soldiers in Kashmir?

Read and tell me if this is how the people of kashmir are treated and are opressed as specifies by this excert from Kashmiri site. Also is the site for u visit to be enlightened.

India conducts poll in JK under military security-cum-terror. Ulemas in Jammu Kashmir are planning to issue a fatwa (edict) against the State for imposing undeclared curfew to disallow Friday congregational prayers. Chairman of Jammu Kashmir Mutahid-e-Majlis Ulema (MMU), Mirwaiz Umar Farooq said that Ulemas here were planning to issue a fatwa against the State government to protest against the &#8216;religious repression&#8217;. Mirwaiz said that the issue was a long running problem in Jammu Kashmir and MMU, after holding consultations with renowned Islamic scholars at national and international level, would issue a fatwa. This is the sixth consecutive Friday when congregational prayers in Jamia Masjid Srinagar were not held due to imposition of undeclared curfews. 

Kashmir Watch :: In-depth coverage on Kashmir conflict


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## scrumpy

pagans said:


> FYI Arundhati Roy is a Keralite.. Nowadays Keralites are proving to great traitors to India.



Just because you don't agree with an individual, don't go around making stupid statements about an entire group of people. There is truth to what she says and that is what makes you and me uncomfortable. 

However I also believe that the Kashmiri cause is compromised by the involvement of our neighbours, using terrorism as a means and by the use of religion. This makes it impossible for India to make concessions. No one in India is ready for another partition based on religion.

I also refuse to give in to a group of people who believe that they can terrorise the us into submission. The day they lay down their guns and stop demanding separation because of their religion, they will find more sympathetic ears ready to listen to them.


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## Awesome

pagans said:


> *if there was some referendum where people were given the option of India, Pakistan, or azadi, I imagine that an overwhelming majority would say azadi. If they were given only an option between India and Pakistan, I thinkIm no one to say this, but Im just saying my gut feeling is that Pakistan would win hands down.*


IMO there has to be 2 set of referrendums

Referendum 1: Pakistan vs India = Winner 1

Referendum 2: Winner 1 vs Azaadi (independence)

By process of elimination we will have a solution.

I would be okay with it. It's fair and we can all move on, hopefully getting a Kashmiri visa won't be that hard for us Pakistanis and Indians even if they go for Azadi.


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## pagans

Another one

Arundhati Roy on Human Costs of India?s Economic Growth, Kashmir & Other Issues: III Wonders of Pakistan


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## pagans

Asim Aquil said:


> IMO there has to be 2 set of referrendums
> 
> Referendum 1: Pakistan vs India = Winner 1
> 
> Referendum 2: Winner 1 vs Azaadi (independence)
> 
> By process of elimination we will have a solution.
> 
> I would be okay with it. It's fair and we can all move on, hopefully getting a Kashmiri visa won't be that hard for us Pakistanis and Indians even if they go for Azadi.


Stage 3 : Pakistan attacks and annex Kashmir. End of 'azadi' ,'freedom' etc.......


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## Awesome

RobbieS said:


> They cant be compared dude. One is a raving mad war monger while the other is a well known author and activist known the world over. And she isn't asking for war or more violence. If at all she makes a strong case for peace.
> 
> Its good to be patriotic but you should let your emotions take a break once in a while. It will allow you to step back and look at things through a balanced perspective.



I completely agree. There is no comparison between the class of Arundhati Roy and that, well, "analyst" Zaid Hamid.

I think she's wrongfully quoted for just one book, Indians need to broaden their perspectives and read ALL her books to figure out what she's all about.

There's nothing anti-Indian about her, she wants change within India for its benefit. I've just started reading her book, Listening to Grasshoppers: Field notes on democracy. She's someone a few years ahead of a lot of us normal folks in her thought process. It will be India's loss and Pakistan's gain if they chalk her off as anti-Indian and pro-Pakistani. We wouldn't mind having her as our citizen if thats what you're offering .


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## TaimiKhan

pagans said:


> Stage 3 : Pakistan attacks and annex Kashmir. End of 'azadi' ,'freedom' etc.......





That is the Indian way, not Pakistani way.


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## Fireurimagination

The thing with her is she goes overboard with everything, probably is way too emotional or way too anti-India. Sometimes people have to understand territorial integrity of India or for that matter of fact any country is more important than what is right/wrong? anything and everything


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## Awesome

Fireurimagination said:


> The thing with her is she goes overboard with everything, probably is way too emotional or way too anti-India. Sometimes people have to understand territorial integrity of India or for that matter of fact any country is more important than what is right/wrong? anything and everything


Haha, she's commented on just that, I quote her from Listening to the Grasshoppers:



> "Today, words like 'Pressgress' and 'Development' have become interchangeable with economic 'Reforms', Deregulation and Privatization. 'Freedom' has come to mean 'choice'. It has less to do with human spirit than with different brands of deodorant. 'Market' no longer means a place where you go to buy provisions. The 'Market' is a de-territorialized space where faceless corporations do business, including buying and selling 'futures'. 'Justice' has come to mean 'human rights' (and of those, as they say, 'a few will do'). This theft of language, this technique of usurping words and deploying them like weapons, of using them to mask intent and to mean exactly the opposite of what they have traditionally mean, has been one of the most brilliant strategic victories of the Tsars of the new dispensation. It has allowed them to marginalize their detractors, deprive them of a language in which to voice their critique and dismiss them as being 'anti-progress', 'anti-development', 'anti-reform' and of course 'anti-national' - negativists of the worst sort. Talk about saving a river or protecting a forest and they say, 'Don't you believe in Progress?' To people whose land is being submerged by dam reservoirs and whose homes are being bulldozed they say, 'Do you have an alternative development model?' To those who believe that a government is duty bound to provide people with basic education, healthcare and social security, they say, 'You're against the Market'. And who except a cretin could be against the Market?
> 
> To reclaim these stolen words requires explanations that are too tedious for a world with a short attention span, and too expensive in an era when Free Speech has become unaffordable for the poor. This language heist may prove to be the keystone of our undoing.



Ah, language heist of Indians. I've been saying this for as long as I started about forumming. Indians always use very weird terminology. 'Secularism' is being nice to a Muslim. Communalism is when two different religions start fighting. So much so that it was also noted on this wikipedia article (It wasn't me who wrote it there):

Communalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When you start talk about the plight of Indian Muslims, you are given examples of Shahrukh Khan, Salman Khan, Amir Khan, Abdul Kalam. 

It's like there's a machinery in India that has prepared Indians to have answer for everything wrong they are doing, without providing a solution for anything. When things get tough, they change the meaning of the words they don't like and spin that question back at you. 

_Kashmir _- We have a piece of paper saying its ours
_You went to the UN about Kashmir_ - Nehru was stupid, we don't like Nehru anymore
_You are bound by UN resolutions _- Pakistan already broke the resolutions by not withdrawing unilaterally
_But the resolution was for minimizing troops not elimination_ - We don't care Kashmir is ours, na na na na boo boo

I long ago gave up on seriously considering talks would resolve the Kashmir issue when I realized we're both not even talking the same language. It's like talking to a machine, an IVR with pre-programmed responses.

Arundhati Roy captures the worlds attention because she aims to revocabularize Indians so they may be able to talk with the goal to talk and not to respond.


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## Patriot

Indian Version of Asma Jahanger, Ayesha Siddiqa and other sellouts.


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## ek_indian

Patriot said:


> Indian Version of Asma Jahanger, Ayesha Siddiqa and other sellouts.



I agree with you except the "sellout" part....


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## Nemesis

There is some truth in the assertions that the Indian state has wronged the Kashmiri populace. There is a lot of justifiable anger. Rigged elections and human rights abuses are not the way a nation is supposed to treat a section of its population. Not to forget the treatment handed out to minorities in Kashmir. That is not to say that one agrees with Arundhati Roy's conclusion . The Kashmiri issue is too complicated to be painted in the brush of "Evil Indian state = Oppressed Kashmiri's" - which is the conclusion which she seems to draw. 

I agree with Roby, there are a lot of parallels between Kashmir and Punjab. I think his posts are accurate in reading the dilemma the valley faces. 



> I completely agree. There is no comparison between the class of Arundhati Roy and that, well, "analyst" Zaid Hamid.
> 
> I think she's wrongfully quoted for just one book, Indians need to broaden their perspectives and read ALL her books to figure out what she's all about.
> 
> There's nothing anti-Indian about her, she wants change within India for its benefit. I've just started reading her book, Listening to Grasshoppers: Field notes on democracy. She's someone a few years ahead of a lot of us normal folks in her thought process. It will be India's loss and Pakistan's gain if they chalk her off as anti-Indian and pro-Pakistani. We wouldn't mind having her as our citizen if thats what you're offering .



No, we'll keep her thanks. While i may not agree with a lot of her conclusions, you are completely correct in saying that she is ahead a lot of people in her thought processes. India needs people like Arundhati Roy to become a more humane society. Harsh critics of society whose only aim is to better the conditions of the majority, are an absolute in any society. Without people like her, the world would be a lesser place.


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## Hulk

I have no way of finding out how many people are anti Indian in Kashmir. If I take what Arundhati say's then it seems like almost everyone wants Azadi.

If this is the case then we should definitely consider to find a solution. Area of Jammu and Ladhak should annex to India and let the valley go to Pakistan. 
Independent Kashmir is not an option.

One of the other reason why GOI does not go that route is because that will trigger for similar demands elsewhere, Assam and other NE region, then it will lead to worse situations.

I am not for keeping Kashmir with us, if these people do not want to be with us.

If solving this will lead to better relationship with Pakistan and does not lead to problems in other state. Then I will go for it, having good relationship with Pakistan is worth a lot to me.

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## Awesome

indianrabbit said:


> I have no way of finding out how many people are anti Indian in Kashmir. If I take what Arundhati say's then it seems like almost everyone wants Azadi.
> 
> If this is the case then we should definitely consider to find a solution. Area of Jammu and Ladhak should annex to India and let the valley go to Pakistan.
> Independent Kashmir is not an option.
> 
> One of the other reason why GOI does not go that route is because that will trigger for similar demands elsewhere, Assam and other NE region, then it will lead to worse situations.
> 
> I am not for keeping Kashmir with us, if these people do not want to be with us.
> 
> If solving this will lead to better relationship with Pakistan and does not lead to problems in other state. Then I will go for it, having good relationship with Pakistan is worth a lot to me.


Annexation formulas are not agreeable to Kashmiris. I think Independence option is best. The thing is Kashmir in the hands of the other is not agreeable to Pakistan and India however a free nation might not bruise anyone's ego, lets face it, 50&#37; of the Kashmir problem is all ego.

India's issue of a freedom demands from other states is an internal matter of India's and neither Pakistan nor Kashmiris would want that to be another hurdle in the Kashmir talks. For that matter, there are theoretical freedom demands in every province of Pakistan as well (including Punjab). Heck even cities like Karachi have some freedom demands in some corner of the population in Pakistan.

I don't foresee them becoming any serious problem for Pakistan if Kashmir goes free. Some of the richest families of Punjab are Kashmiris. Nawaz Sharif, the 2nd or 3rd richest person in Pakistan is a Kashmiri. That is the sort of power they wield over Pakistan and are truly an integral community, they form a big chunk of Punjab's elite class. If the Kashmiris want freedom, these forces would make sure that Pakistan does not have a problem with it and consequently since we'll be super cooperative I see the Kashmiris looking up to us as an allied nation.

I in fact prefer to demand first a free Kashmir solution then a Pakistani Kashmir. I want to demand something that is gettable, something that is the right thing to do and something that doesn't leave the Indians feeling bad when they walk off the negotiating table.

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## rastor

Asim Aquil said:


> Annexation formulas are not agreeable to Kashmiris. I think Independence option is best. The thing is Kashmir in the hands of the other is not agreeable to Pakistan and India however a free nation might not bruise anyone's ego, lets face it, 50&#37; of the Kashmir problem is all ego.
> 
> India's issue of a freedom demands from other states is an internal matter of India's and neither Pakistan nor Kashmiris would want that to be another hurdle in the Kashmir talks. For that matter, there are theoretical freedom demands in every province of Pakistan as well (including Punjab). Heck even cities like Karachi have some freedom demands in some corner of the population in Pakistan.
> 
> I don't foresee them becoming any serious problem for Pakistan if Kashmir goes free. Some of the richest families of Punjab are Kashmiris. Nawaz Sharif, the 2nd or 3rd richest person in Pakistan is a Kashmiri. That is the sort of power they wield over Pakistan and are truly an integral community, they form a big chunk of Punjab's elite class. If the Kashmiris want freedom, these forces would make sure that Pakistan does not have a problem with it and consequently since we'll be super cooperative I see the Kashmiris looking up to us as an allied nation.
> 
> I in fact prefer to demand first a free Kashmir solution then a Pakistani Kashmir. I want to demand something that is gettable, something that is the right thing to do and something that doesn't leave the Indians feeling bad when they walk off the negotiating table.



You just don't get it do you? This conflict has long since ceased to be about kashmiri azadi. 


> ''He bowed down his head to the Almighty, and then he got shot,'' Mr. Farooq said.
> 
> Mr. Ahmad was Mr. Farooq's cousin, but akin to his uncle. He was a retired civil servant, but his passion was politics. He had struggled for Kashmiri independence for decades, first alongside Mr. Farooq's father, Maulvi Mohammed Farooq, then, after his assassination in 1990, alongside his son.
> 
> But Mr. Ahmad was not enough of a public figure to make him a target in his own right. Rather, the killing appears to have been a message to the young Mr. Farooq, who this year transgressed -- at least in hard-liners' eyes -- by going to New Delhi to open a dialogue with India.
> 
> Violence in Kashmir Invades a Most Sacred Space - NYTimes.com




So much for pak standing for Kashmir Azadi.

Any moralistic stand has long since been replaced by self-interest for both India & Pakistan. 

India & Pakistan keep throwing men at this meat-grinder but the sustenance of it demands so much more from pakistan. Its affecting you more than us. The best hope is the rise of a stable middle class to power in pakistan that sees the situation as it is and makes a decision on what is best for pakistan citizens rather than vain nationalistic ego. More so on pakistan as they would be facing an policy-making apparatus in India that is too ossified to see beyond territory or ideology. 

Both nations need to make compromises but the way things have turned out pakistn may have to bear more than it would like to. Policies & actions have consequences & both bharat & pakistan would face the repercussions for keeping this conflict on the boil.


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## Khajur

RobbieS said:


> Believe me it is not that simple. Brainwashing as we call it can only happen if there is "material" ready for it. Youth in Kashmir were never poor nor were they all uneducated.
> 
> I dont pretend to know the inside out of the situation in Kashmir really well, but I views are on the basis of personal experiences. Visits to Kashmir and long chats over tea with Kashmiri friends both in Delhi and Canada.
> 
> I don't intend to espouse the cause of any of the people or groups that took up arms against the state. All I want to convey is that things run deeper than they seem



I understan that there are deeper reasons for alianation be it kashmir,punjab,north east or say marathis aganist Bhaiya of UP/Bihar etc etc the list just goes on and on .

U have to accept that its always far easier to create division among people for pity interest than bring them together for a greater cause.

I'm not a patriotic guy when it comes to injustice ,justice cant be granted in proxy *war zone*.

I'm sure one can take up human right issues in punjab only because there is this process of reconciliation at the ground level and same thing has to happen in kashmir for normalisation its resolution.Now its a ongoing battle that india just cant loose pakistan for its own survival .

If we go by Arundhati Roy's suggestions and start honoring every little emotion of azadi conceled in the hearts and mind of ppl living in all corners of india on very valid reasons(i'm sure we all can find to some reason or other not stay as one nation) then as *once Sadar Patel said india would become Pagalstan.*That would be the greatest injustice to every one including the ones demanding azadi.

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## Fireurimagination

Asim Aquil said:


> Haha, she's commented on just that, I quote her from Listening to the Grasshoppers:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, language heist of Indians. I've been saying this for as long as I started about forumming. Indians always use very weird terminology. 'Secularism' is being nice to a Muslim. Communalism is when two different religions start fighting. So much so that it was also noted on this wikipedia article (It wasn't me who wrote it there):
> 
> Communalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> When you start talk about the plight of Indian Muslims, you are given examples of Shahrukh Khan, Salman Khan, Amir Khan, Abdul Kalam.
> 
> It's like there's a machinery in India that has prepared Indians to have answer for everything wrong they are doing, without providing a solution for anything. When things get tough, they change the meaning of the words they don't like and spin that question back at you.
> 
> _Kashmir _- We have a piece of paper saying its ours
> _You went to the UN about Kashmir_ - Nehru was stupid, we don't like Nehru anymore
> _You are bound by UN resolutions _- Pakistan already broke the resolutions by not withdrawing unilaterally
> _But the resolution was for minimizing troops not elimination_ - We don't care Kashmir is ours, na na na na boo boo
> 
> I long ago gave up on seriously considering talks would resolve the Kashmir issue when I realized we're both not even talking the same language. It's like talking to a machine, an IVR with pre-programmed responses.
> 
> Arundhati Roy captures the worlds attention because she aims to revocabularize Indians so they may be able to talk with the goal to talk and not to respond.



We don't live in a fairy land where everything in hunky dory, Secularism in India doesn't mean every Hindu in India is in love with every Muslim and vice versa heck there are Hindus who hate fellow Hindus forget about Muslims. We are the most diversified country on the Planet (nothing even comes close) and by every standard we are doing great. Coming back to Kashmir, it's more of an emotional issue rather than a practical one, what azadi are they not getting in India? It's not very hard to fool people with religious, regional or other such emotional issues, you get daily such examples in Pakistan, don't you?

There was similar terror movements in other parts of India (Punjab, Assam), what happened to them? Did everybody one fine day said, no, no now we want to live in India? It's not the normal citizen who want violence and disturbance in their day to day life, it some people with vested interests, all a common man wants is a good, peaceful and progressive life

And going by your and Arundhati roy's logic, Pakistan should provide freedom to Pakistani Kashmir, Baluchistan, China should leave Tibet, Russia should leave Chechnya and countless more but as I understand 'Change is the only thing that doesn't change'

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## Valiant_Soul

Fireurimagination said:


> We don't live in a fairy land where everything in hunky dory, Secularism in India doesn't mean every Hindu in India is in love with every Muslim and vice versa heck there are Hindus who hate fellow Hindus forget about Muslims. We are the most diversified country on the Planet (nothing even comes close) and by every standard we are doing great. Coming back to Kashmir, it's more of an emotional issue rather than a practical one, what azadi are they not getting in India? It's not very hard to fool people with religious, regional or other such emotional issues, you get daily such examples in Pakistan, don't you?
> 
> There was similar terror movements in other parts of India (Punjab, Assam), what happened to them? Did everybody one fine day said, no, no now we want to live in India? It's not the normal citizen who want violence and disturbance in their day to day life, it some people with vested interests, all a common man wants is a good, peaceful and progressive life
> 
> And going by your and Arundhati roy's logic, Pakistan should provide freedom to Pakistani Kashmir, Baluchistan, China should leave Tibet, Russia should leave Chechnya and countless more but as I understand 'Change is the only thing that doesn't change'



Very rightly put! Arundhati Roy needs to develop some sense that Kashmir is not only about Kashmiris, but the whole of India. If the whole of India is willing to let go Kashmir, only then there is a possibility. The most basic thing she needs to understand is that no country can put at stake its territorial integrity. That is an absolute no. So she should focus on helping Kashmiris if she wants and not derive publicity by fake emotional attachment.

India on the other hand is making all efforts to properly administer and develop the region of Kashmir so that people there can prosper, as all Indians wish to see a prosperous Kashmir.

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## hembo

China retreats, shepherds back
Arun Joshi, Hindustan Times
Jammu, January 16, 2010

Indian shepherds are back in the Shakgung pasturelands along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) from where they had been driven out by Chinese troops last winter.







The strategically important area near Demchok, 300 km east of Leh, is back in Indian hands.

More than 300 families of grazers have reached the pasture, which is 25-30 km long and 3-13 km broad, with 30,000 livestock  mostly Pashmina goats, yaks and horses  and pitched their tents for more than two weeks, after the Indian army convinced its Chinese counterpart to withdraw.

Our shepherds are there and there have been no problems so far, Chering Dorjay, chief executive councillor of the Ladakh Autonomous Hill Devel-opment Council, told Hindustan Times over the phone from Leh.

In December 2008, Chinese troops had assaulted the Indian shepherds.

The troops burnt their provisions, uprooted their tents and told them not to return. More recently, Chinese army had, last month, stopped Indian authorities from constructing a road in Demchok under NREGA.

The Indus is considered the LAC in the area. Over the years, the river has changed course, pushing into India, by 500-1,500 metres every year, thus allowing the Chinese side to claim large swathes of territory on its side of the river.

But this time, the Indian side convinced the Chinese  at a series of border management meetings  to recognise the original course of the river.

The incident of December 2008 was strongly raised and repeatedly asserted during the flag meetings held in January 2009, said Brig. G. Murali of the Northern Command.

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## dabong1

A landmine explosion has injured six policemen in Indian-administered Kashmir, officials said.

The incident took place in Tral township, 40km (25 miles) south of the summer capital, Srinagar.

Police said the mine was planted on an iron bridge. The explosion was very powerful and shook nearby buildings, as well as damaging the bridge.

The BBC's Altaf Hussain in Srinagar says there has been a sudden surge in violence in Kashmir.

This has coincided with the souring of relations between India and Pakistan, he says.

India and Pakistan both claim Kashmir in its entirety and have fought two wars over it.

Flashpoint

The police vehicle had just passed by when the explosion happened, officials said.

Violence in Kashmir has decreased since 2004 when India and Pakistan signed a peace treaty.

But in recent weeks there have been outbreaks of fighting.

A 20-year insurgency against Indian rule in Jammu and Kashmir has claimed more than 47,000 lives since 1990.

Kashmir has been a flashpoint between India and Pakistan for more than 50 years and the scene of two of their three wars.

India has accused Pakistan of pushing armed militants across the line of control - the de facto border which divides Kashmir between the South Asian neighbours - into Indian-administered Kashmir.

The two countries suspended talks on Kashmir and other disputes after the Mumbai attacks of November 2008.

Indian authorities say they expect more violence in the region in coming days.

Security has been tightened across the state ahead of India's Republic Day celebrated on 26 January.

The separatists have called for a shutdown in the Kashmir Valley on that day.

BBC News - Policemen injured in landmine blast in Kashmir


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## EjazR

*Independence or accession?*

The man sounded energetic and confident. He is a political activist from Srinagar and, I was discussing peace process in Kashmir and its likely outcome. I said to him, in negotiations all parties have to give some and take some. Are people of Kashmir now ready to make a compromise? &#8220;No way&#8221;, he said confidently. &#8220;We will never compromise. We want Azadi (freedom)&#8221;.

What do you mean by Azadi (freedom) I asked him? He hesitated for a moment and said, &#8220;By azadi, I mean azadi&#8221;.

I said different people have different meaning of freedom. Freedom generally means absence of restrictions and an opportunity to exercise one's rights and powers.

He said, &#8220;We don&#8217;t want the Indian army here&#8221;.

I asked, &#8220;If the Indian army moves out and issues related to law and order are controlled by Kashmiri police or local militia; you have freedom of speech and freedom of movement; is that satisfactory to you&#8221;.
He was little perplexed, and appeared bit unsure, and then he said, &#8220;We want India to be out of Kashmir. We don&#8217;t want to be part of India.&#8221;

I asked him, &#8220;If you don&#8217;t want to be part of India then what do you want to do when Indians move out?&#8221;

&#8220;We will have azadi (freedom) from India and run our own government, or join Pakistan&#8221;, he said.

This has been the problem with the Kashmiri struggle and people of Jammu and Kashmir. Jammu and Kashmir is forcibly divided and each region has its own interest and own agenda with no clear destination in mind.

As Kashmir is multi religious and multi ethnic State, there bound to be regional and ethnic issues; but while keeping those issues in mind we have to promote a national interest, and not interest of one religion of one region of the State. Similarly we have to ensure that we do not become foot soldiers of either India or Pakistan.

*If ultimate aim of some Muslims of the Valley of Kashmir is to join Pakistan then that could be called accession and not azadi or freedom.* Perhaps these people don&#8217;t know that the people of Pakistan are also in search of freedom since 1947, and they haven&#8217;t seen that yet; and in frustration they are looking for alternatives and some are clearly talking of breaking away from Pakistan.

*Furthermore by promoting a Muslim cause or playing a Muslim card they are in practise dividing the State on religious lines; and that is something we must oppose at all costs. The last division on communal lines took place in South Asia in 1947, and people of South Asia are still paying price for that division with their blood.*

*That division caused death and destruction to property, and affected lives of millions of people. The scars of that bloody division were so deep that communities even now have been come to terms with that. Memories of that division, which generated hatred and animosity among the communities is still dividing the communities and poisoning politics of that region.*

*Apart from that it is religious fanaticism which has become threat to peace and stability in South Asia and Jammu and Kashmir. It is this fanaticism which is giving bad name to jihad and Islam; and creating enormous problems for Muslims through out the world.*

Those Kashmiris who claim that divisions among the Kashmiris are superficial and that all Kashmiris are untied around the demand of right of self determination are not correct as there are deep divisions in the ranks of the Kashmiri people.* Even people have different interpretations of right of self determination; and they confuse that with right of accession which was given to us in the UN Resolutions. *It is only appropriate that we accept this reality and make sincere efforts to forge some kind of unity.

The divisions we have are ideological and clearly divide the people of Jammu and Kashmir. It is unfortunate that even in 2010; there are some Kashmiri leaders who justify use of violence to promote their cause. Some want an Islamic rule; while others want democratic and secular form of government. Some even want to make this struggle a struggle of Kashmiri Muslims, which practically means they want a division of the State on communal lines.

These leaders represent a vested interest which wants instability in the region, as that suits their commercial and political interests. They want pot of communalism and hatred keep on boiling that they can advance their agenda and impose their will on other people.

*If we want peace and stability in South Asia then we need to resolve the Kashmir dispute; and we cannot resolve the Kashmir dispute by making it a Muslim problem or a problem of water and resources. It is deeply disturbing that despite enormous sacrifices by the people of Jammu and Kashmir the Kashmir dispute is still perceived as a dispute which has to be resolved by the governments of India and Pakistan.*

True, the Kashmir dispute has to be resolved by a process of dialogue and not by use of a gun; but we the people of Jammu and Kashmir must be part of this dialogue process, as we cannot allow bureaucrats of India and Pakistan to decide future of the State and future of our generations.
_
Writer is Head of Diplomatic Committee of Kashmir National Party, political analyst and author of many books and booklets. Also he is Director Institute of Kashmir Affairs. Email: drshabirchoudhry@gmail.com_

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## EjazR

*Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - Good Omen*
OpEd
After remaining in dilapidated state, Shetaleshwar Bhairav temple of Habba Kadal locality reopened after a long gap of 20 years much to the happiness of Kashmiri Pandits and the local Muslims. Earlier last year Dusshera was celebrated in Srinagar after 20 years and large number of locals attended the event sending a strong message to the world that local Muslims look forward to the return of their Pandit brethren.

Reopening of temples, which had gone unattended during all these years, augurs well for the Pandit-Muslim bonhomie which has passed through tough times since the start of the armed phase of Kashmir conflict in 1989. It can also act as a catalyst for the return of Kashmiri Pandits to their homeland if it is coupled with measures to create conducive atmosphere for their homecoming. Just as the restoration of temples can act as a formidable Confidence Building Measure as far as the return of Pandits is concerned, it is also important that the affairs of all their religious places should be entrusted to Kashmiri Pandits only. Taking advantage of their absence, many non-local people have started to manage these places. Kashmiri Pandits have themselves been mindful of this trend and they have shown strong objection to it as is evident from the statements of some prominent Pandits. Following the Amarnath Shrine row, noted Pandit activists had condemned the politicization of the shrine board. They demanded that board affairs be handled by top journalists, lawyers, social activists from Kashmiri Pandit community only. 

Noted activist, Dr Roop Lal Sharma had said that only Kashmiri Pandits have the right to manage the affairs of the shrine besides the local population of Maliks of Batkote so that the yatra is not communalised by some vested interests in the administration. In this context, Kashmiri Pandits Sangharsh Samiti (KPSS) is doing a commendable job by restoring the temples. Shetaleshwar Bhairav temple became the 37th temple that was reopened by KPSS. They have of course been encouraged by the support lend by local Muslims who have been yearning for their return and also support their right of managing the local temples. However, given the fact that 548 temples, as per KPSS, are yet to be restored, there is still a long way to go. The government has so far shown keen intent for the return and rehabilitation of Pandit community unlike the previous regimes. The need is to pursue the good work. At least they can expect overwhelming public support in this respect. 

Kashmiri Muslims and Pandits have shown exemplary composure in the face of propaganda by some vested organizations. These self-styled custodians of Pandit rights have been trying hard to communalize the secular character of the valley so they can cash in on the division. Restoration of temples and the handling of their affairs to Pandits is a good start as it will send a strong message to such elements bent on harming the communal harmony of Kashmir.

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## Awesome

Presently Kashmiris are the most secular people in South Asia, the question of Kashmiri freedom transcends Hindu-Muslim issues and is a political not a religious issue. 

Most Kashmiri independence groups have stated time and again that an independent Kashmir would be a secular Kashmir.


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## Contrarian

Asim Aquil said:


> Presently Kashmiris are the most secular people in South Asia, the question of Kashmiri freedom transcends Hindu-Muslim issues and is a political not a religious issue.
> 
> Most Kashmiri independence groups have stated time and again that an independent Kashmir would be a secular Kashmir.



That did not stop groups like LeT to call for Kashmiri pundits to leave Kashmir leaving behind the women

There is one solution to Kashmir-dissolve Article 370. Then in a decade there will be no Kashmir problem.

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## Contrarian

Kashmir's problem can be resolved internally. You scrap Article 370 and you see the changes, influx of businesses and people, income, etc. It will change everything in Kashmir.

Why does India have to separate Kashmir from the rest of India while Pakistan allows others to settle in their Kashmir.


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## TruthSeeker

*Why Kashmir is no more a core issue*

By Tayyab Siddiqui, Sunday, 24 Jan, 2010

The sad fact is that Kashmir as a core issue has lost its urgency and primacy as determinant of peace and security in the region. The worlds focus is no longer on this issue. Since 9/11 there is no more a legitimate armed struggle against foreign domination or alien occupation. It is seen only through the prism of terrorism. India has succeeded in preserving all its positions and has shifted focus from its unlawful occupation of Kashmir to the overall objective of advancing the peace process. What is worse is that capitalising on western phobia about Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism, the Indian propaganda machinery has subtly but effectively exploited this feat and equated the Kashmiris struggle for self determination to terrorist activity, supported by Pakistan. This well-orchestrated campaign has narrowed the parameters of the Kashmir issue to cross-border terrorism.

The Islamabad Declaration was indeed the beginning of erosion of our Kashmir stance. The UNSC resolution 1172 of June 6, 1998 was an extremely important development. It was after November 5, 1965 that the UNSC took cognizance of the Kashmir issue and urged India and Pakistan to resume the dialogue between them and on all outstanding issues, including Kashmir. Pakistan failed to use this resolution to revive and internationalise the issue again.

Furthermore, the Islamabad Declaration did not make any reference to the Lahore Declaration (February 21, 1999), Simla Agreement or the UN charter. Diplomatically speaking, this has been a major blunder. Kashmir is now only a bilateral irritant. Kashmir has lost the primacy, having been made subservient to the issue of terrorism, and in this context Pakistans unilateral commitment not to allow its territory to be used to support terrorism in any manner without seeking a reciprocal commitment from India is regarded by diplomatic observers as a great setback.

The fundamental shift in Pakistans Kashmir policy is primarily based on Musharrafs appeasement policy with India. The gradual but steady silence on Indian atrocities in the IHK and a lukewarm projection of Kashmir in the UN General Assembly bears testimony to this change of policy. References from President Musharrafs address to the world body during the last five years (2002  2006), reveal this tragic slide in our position.

The UN General Assembly is the most distinguished forum used annually by world leaders to explain their countrys policies before the international community; seeking its understanding and support to their problems. The statements by these heads of state/government constitute basic documents to gauge the foreign policy direction and their nuances for appropriate response by the concerned quarters. Ever since Pakistan joined the UN, the Kashmir issue has been the dominant theme of its statements, reflecting the depth of concern and importance Pakistan attaches to the Issue.

How abjectly Musharraf surrendered to India is manifest in the policy statements before UN General Assembly during its annual sessions which gradually became less concerned on Kashmir. On September 12, 2002, President Musharraf told the UN General Assembly that the struggle of the Kashmiri people for their right to self-determination continues unabated despite the brutal repression and state terrorism by India. In the recent past, India has embarked on a sinister campaign to malign the Kashmiri freedom struggle by trying to link it with international terrorism. The Kashmir struggle cannot be delegitimised by such false claims.

On September 24, 2003, Musharraf, in his address to the UN General Assemblys 58th session, recalled the brutal suppression of the Kashmiris demand for self-determination and freedom from Indian occupation and invited the International communitys attention to the Indian policy to suppress the legitimate struggle of the Kashmiri people to exercise their right to self-determination in accordance with the UNSC resolution. He also castigated India for seeking to exploit the International anti-terrorist sentiment after 9/11 to delegitimise the Kashmiri freedom struggle and held India responsible for refusing to implement the UNSC resolutions and perpetrating gross and consistent violations of human rights in Kashmir.

*Since 2004 there has been a complete turn-around. There has been no mention of Kashmir being the most dangerous place in the world, no mention of the right of self-determination, no denunciation of the Indian atrocities and no reference to the UNSC resolutions and certainly no reference to the indigenous freedom struggle of the Kashmiri people.*

Addressing the September 2004 session of the UN General Assembly, President Musharraf studiously avoided all such expressions and restricted himself to aspirations of peace both in India and Pakistan and Pakistans firm commitment to resolving all disputes with India peacefully, including the Kashmir dispute and expressing the hope that India shows the same sincerity, flexibility, and boldness that Pakistan will demonstrate.

On September 15, 2005 President Musharraf addressed the 60th UN General Assembly Summit session. In his survey of global problems he disposed of the Kashmir issue in just one sentence, it is essential to find a just solution of the dispute over Jammu and Kashmir acceptable to Pakistan, India, and above all to the people of Kashmir.

In 2006, President Musharrafs reference to the Kashmir issue in his UN General Assembly address was more puerile and commonplace. Pakistan desires a peaceful environment in the region. We have been engaged in a peace process with India aimed at confidence building and resolving issue, including the Jammu and Kashmir dispute; which have been a source of tension and conflict between the two countries in the past.

In 2007, President Musharraf did not attend the UN General Assembly due to internal political crisis. Pakistans delegation was led by the foreign secretary. Abandoning the right of self-determination has done tremendous damage to Pakistan and to the cause of Kashmir. It is not the LoC that has become irrelevant but the Kashmir issue itself in the overall context of bilateral relations. Despite government disclaimers that there has been no paradigm shift the crude reality is that Pakistan has altered its historic position and is now open to new ideas and out of box solutions.

Regrettably, the democratic government of Gillani has also continued the appeasement policy of Musharraf era. President Zardari addressing the UNGA on September 25, 2008 followed the tradition of his predecessor. He asked India to resume the composite dialogue. We seek a peaceful resolution of all outstanding issues with India. Meaningful progress towards resolution of Kashmir dispute is necessary for durable peace and stability in South Asia. Period. Zardari did not mention the UN resolution on Kashmir, nor did he raise the issue of Indian security forces brutal policies and continuing violation of human rights in IHK.

Gillani government, for its own credibility must examine the Kashmir policy in all its dimensions. Full-scale debate on our foreign policy with focus on Kashmir must be held in the parliament. A policy based on principles and sentiments of Kashmiris alone will restore the credibility of Pakistans avowed policy of support to Kashmir.

The writer is a former ambassador.

DAWN.COM | World | Why Kashmir is no more a core issue

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

It is the mother of all tensions btw India and Pakistan . Both countries cannot go forward in harmony without solving this dispute .


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## Imran Khan

don't play man its emotnal issue we both have its serius problim.i personaly don't ever hate india but our gov solve this issue we can't fix


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## praveen

no one in the indian establishment wants peace with pakistan,no need of harmony no thanks


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## deckingraj

praveen said:


> no one in the indian establishment wants peace with pakistan,no need of harmony no thanks



What??? Now thats a news to me...Any reason we don't want peace with Pak??? I did not know that hostility with Pak is helping our economy... I hope this is some typo mistake or else you certainly have lost it bro...


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## Skeptic

imran khan said:


> don't play man its emotnal issue we both have its serius problim.i personaly don't ever hate india but our gov solve this issue we can't fix


This is the reason why it aint getting fixed. Coz we have both taken it up on our emotions and collective egos.

Remove the emotions, and problems will be solved? Easier said than done eh....

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## Imran Khan

praveen said:


> no one in the indian establishment wants peace with pakistan,no need of harmony no thanks



so what we poors of indo pak do? we are commen man


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## Imran Khan

Skeptic said:


> This is the reason why it aint getting fixed. Coz we have both taken it up on our emotions and collective egos.
> 
> Remove the emotions, and problems will be solved? Easier said than done eh....



emotions with peace yaar please think we no need kashmir but solve it .

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## zz5168

Kashmir was never a core issue over the world.

It is the core issue between Inida and Pakistan. 

Nowadays it is the sub-Core issue attached to the 
USA<->Iran-Pakistan-Krashmir-China line.
In order to attack Iran -> need to block the land route between china and Iran, what is the bridge?--Pakistan!
In order to block the bridge Pakistan -> start a fire in kashimir


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## EjazR

I wanted to highlight information on the J&K police who in reality lead (alone or in collaboration with) most of the operations against militants. On top of providing the usual policing duties, the J&K police has come a long way since '89 when it was ill equipped to fight highly trained militants and is now regarded as one of the best police forces in India. Eventually, the ideal situation would be that the Army withdraws completely to border outposts and bases, while the para-military is limited to only some high profile installations like power plants, VIP security and govt. buildings. The J&K police will then take over all security and law enforcement related issues.

Here is a recent article that nicely puts in words what I have heard from neighbors and friends knowledgeable about the J&K situation on how the local police force is defending their land and people.
---------------------

*
The Khaki Fidayeen | OPEN Magazine*

As gunfire crackled in the snowscaped Srinagar chill of early January, with two fidayeen fighterswholly rolled, strapped and sold to their causeholding Lal Chowks Punjab Hotel under seige, a handful of Kashmirs police officers were overcome with déjà vu. And itchy fingers, that burning need to be there as part of the operation, countering terror with all theyve got. Equally if not more dedicated to Indias own cause, the legitimate cause of Peace in the Valley, these men in khaki are clear they have what it takesif only the government would deploy them. Back in 1989, when the insurgency broke out, the J&K Police was ill-equipped to handle it; some policemen were even suspected of sympathy with insurgents. Today, the force actually has police officers trained in counter-terrorism. Most of them are Kashmiri Muslims, and when they say they wouldve wrapped up the 26/11 job in just ten hours, it doesnt sound like an empty boast. Theyre Indias Khaki Fidayeen. Open profiles five such policemen. Theyve already helped steady things in J&K, and are raring for action...

*JAVID AHMED

Inspector*

The information was soild, Ek dum pukhta, as the informer told Inspector Javid Ahmed. A militant had been spotted inside a college in Shopian in south Kashmir. There was no time to lose. Javid and his three men rushed immediatelyas the inspector recounts.

At the college ground, Javid saw a young man near a motorcycle. As Javid approached, the young man pulled out a grenade. Unfazed, Javid jumped at him, even as two of his own men ran away. I held his hands tightly in mine while he tried hard to pull the pin, says Javid. The third policeman, who hadnt fled, stood paralysed with fear while Javids fight went on. It lasted for almost five long minutes before Javid finally managed to loosen the militants hands. The grenade landed on a road nearby, beyond the college wall, but luckily did not explode.

If Javid has a charmed life, hed rather not test it so brazenly again. I have promised myself that I wont act so brave again, he says.Javid comes from a policemans family. His father was once in charge of the Tral police station in south Kashmir, a post which he has since taken charge of. During the peak of militancy in Jammu & Kashmir (J&K), it was common for policemen and their families to get threats from militants. Javids father got many such threats, and even survived a landmine blast.

Javids first posting after graduating from the J&K police academy in 2002 was in Shopian, a Jamaat-e-Islami stronghold and thus a tough challenge. According to a senior police officer, militancy here reigned until mid-2000; the police feared for their lives and dared not take action. Javid, however, would have none of it, vowing to resist militants every turn of the way. From day one, I had vowed to eliminate militancy, he says.

In some four years, Javid led operation after operation in Shopian, resulting in the elimination of at least 25 top militant leaders, including the Lashkar-e-Toibas deputy district commander. Wherever I am, I will keep fighting militancy, no matter what, he says.

*IMTIYAZ HUSSAIN

Superintendent of Police*

The man opened fire the moment Police Officer Imtiyaz Hussain asked him who he was. Tu kaun hai? Hussain remembers shouting at the man sitting under an apple tree. It was an orchard in north Kashmirs Sopore.

Hussain had his eyes fixed on the figure in the distance when he suddenly saw metal glisten in the bright afternoon sun. Instead of revealing who he was, the mystery man, Abu Abdullah, had pulled out an AK-47 rifle. The police officer could have died that very instant had it not been for his namesake, Constable Imtiyaz Ahmed, who jumped in front of his boss and took the AK-47s bullets in his lower abdomen.

Abu Abdullah was no ordinary gunman. He was a hardcore Lashkar terrorist, sent to carry out a fidayeen attack in Srinagar. It was just hours before he was to head for the state capital that Hussain, who was then Sopores superintendent of police, got a whiff of his plans. At the encounter in the orchard, Abdullah had fought fiercely, so fiercely that he wouldnt let the police party rescue Imtiyaz Ahmed, who lay wounded in the line of fire. Shards of apples flew in all directions.

It took Hussain an hour to get near Abdullah. And then he shot Abdullah dead from a one-foot distance. I tilted his rifle away from myself and shot him with my pistol, recounts Imtiyaz. But Constable Ahmed, sadly, couldnt be saved.

Hussain belongs to the 1999 batch of the J&K Police. It is called the fidayeen batch, he quips. He joined as a deputy superintendent of police in Shopian, in south Kashmir, which was then the regions hotbed of militancy. But it was from 2006 onwards in Sopore that Hussain faced the most difficult phase of his career.

At that time, Sopore was the hub of terrorist outfit Lashkar-e-Toiba. Most fidayeen attacks which took place in Srinagar would be orchestrated from Sopore. Hussains main objective was containing the Lashkar. Unless the police sent out a strong message by instilling the fear of death in militants, he felt, it wouldnt be possible to contain militancy. His big moment came in November 2006, when he successfully managed to bump off Osama Pehalwan, chief of the militant outfit Al-Mansurian. Pehalwan had led a string of attacks against the Indian Army.

In another daring operation, Hussain recalls scalping senior Lashkar commander Hafiz Nasir. On an informers cue, Hussain and team zeroed in on the militant hiding along with two Jaish operatives in Rafiabad, near Sopore; the three were planning a fidayeen attack on the cavalcade of then J&K Chief Minister Mufti Mohammed Sayeed, according to intelligence inputs. As the team lay siege, Hussain, who was accompanied on the operation by an Army colonel, was instructed by his seniors to rush to a site where the CM was supposed to address a public rally. But once he left, the militants broke out of the cordon. Two Army soldiers were killed, and Hafiz Nasir took refuge in another house. Hussain was called right back. He was in favour of blasting the house, but the colonel wanted to be sureand took a peep inside. Nasir shot him. He died on the spot, says Hussain. It was only afterwards that he and his police team managed to kill Nasir.

In another input from Rafiabad, an informer told Hussain that four militants were hiding inside a house. Hussain says he sent a police party thrice into the house for a search, but the militants could not be found. Finally, when the informer called a fourth time, Hussain lost his patience, calling the informer a liar. Cut my throat if you dont get them, the informer whispered.

This time round, Hussain accompanied the search party himself. They searched the entire house. But, like three previous attempts, Hussain couldnt find anything. He was about to call it off when he spotted a black-and-white TV set in one corner of the house. I dont know, he says, but I had this gut feeling that there is something there. The police officer ordered his men to dig beneath the TV set. Even after a couple of feet, they found only earth.

Sir, there is nothing here, one of his men told him. But Hussain insisted that they keep digging. After a foot or so, they came upon another layer of concrete. And beneath it, they discovered a bunker, measuring 6 feet by 8 feet. Sure enough, there were four militants holed up inside. Hussain asked them to surrender. They wouldnt.

Finally, we got it filled with water, says Hussain, almost cringing at the memory. It was in a similar manner that Hussain and his men were able to eliminate Sajjad Afghani, the J&K chief of terrorist outfit Harkat-ul-Mujahideen, in 2008. Afghani was hiding above a false ceiling in the residential quarters of a government hospital employee, and had been an active militant for ten years in north Kashmir. Hussain knew. Many Pakistani boys work for us, he discloses, providing us vital information about militant activities in Kashmir. He has also intercepted many calls from across the border, asking militants to kill certain people. I have saved the life of at least a hundred people by shifting them to safe places.

It is on a Sunday that Hussain, a legend in these parts, finally finds time for Open. His bulletproof vehicle has broken down recently. This puts his life in danger. But there are also other hardships he must put up with in daily life. For example, he stays in rented, not police, accommodation.

The rewards are meagre. Police officers in J&K rue the fact that the men who risk their lives get a pittance as allowancesRs 200 as risk allowance is all that a policeman gets. Compared to that, an Army soldier gets Rs 5,000 per month as risk allowance. So, at a time when so many young men of his age were crossing the border to join militant outfits, how did Hussain choose the police?

Three of our boys died in an encounter... and a militant from Multan also. Tell me, will a Kashmiri mother cry for her three boys or for a militant from Multan? is his succinct response.

The superintendent gets a call on his mobile. And it is then that I recognise his caller tune. Its a song from a 1965 film on Bhagat Singhs life: Eiy watan, eiy watan, humko teri kasam, teri raahon mein jaan tak luta jaayenge...

*MOHAMMED IRSHAD

Superintendent of Police*

When the fidayeen entered Punjab Hotel in the heart of Srinagar last week, one man was immediately summoned: Mohammed Irshad. Till recently the SP, Special Operations Group, he is a reclusive man who lets his personal weapon do the talking. And true to his reputation, Irshads team eliminated both fidayeen fighters in a few short hours. We drilled holes from the wooden roof, shielding ourselves behind iron plates and then shot them, he says.

Today, the very mention of cargo (Irshads erstwhile office was in a building that had housed the cargo section of Indian Airlines) is enough to send shivers across the spines of militants. Inside his office, the first thing that strikes you is a big map of Kashmir. Pinned across the map are names of top militant commanders. Some of them, crossed out. Eliminated. Irshad, clearly, brooks no nonsense. His first posting was in the militant-crawling Doda region, where he is believed to have wiped out most Hizbul cadre. Once he achieved that, the Lashkar couldnt sustain itself there in the absence of Hizbul support, says a senior police officer and colleague.

Modus operandi? In the Valley, Irshad forged a reliable network of informers, some of whom even had the guts to infiltrate militant ranks.We have our men in every tanzeem (outfit), says Irshad. Like all other officers who dared take militants head on, Irshad has had his share of near-death experiences. Once, during an encounter in Telbal, two Lashkar militants jumped out of a window of their first-floor hideout, into a street behind where Irshad and another senior police officer were standing. The militants fired a volley of bullets which they escaped by ducking to the ground. The militants killed five police personnel and injured three others.

Irshad and his men chased them, and one of them was taken down just 2 km away from the original encounter site. The other died in another encounter, two months later, reports Irshad.

The superintendent also remembers a search operation in the Bandipora area, where, acting on specific information about militants inside a house, they laid siege to it. On entering it, they couldnt find any. An exhausted Irshad sat with another officer on a box for almost 15 minutes, discussing what to do.

Finally, they left the building, calling off the operation. It was five days later that a militant was caught, and he revealed that he was hiding in a bunker beneath that very box all that while. He said he was about to fire at us, but I walked away at that very moment, recounts Irshad.

Irshad does not share details of his work with his family. Most of the time, they dont know what I have been up to, but sometimes they come to know of it through media reports.

And then they get worried.
*
AFADUL MUJTABA

Senior Superintendent of Police*

At first sight, Afadul Mujtaba doesnt look like a policeman. He looks more like a rich carpet dealer. But ask the separatist leadership of Kashmir, and you will hear what this man is made of. As SSP, Srinagar, Mujtaba once stirred up a fiery debate in the Valley by citing the Hadith (passed-down accounts of the Prophet Muhammads sayings), arguing that pelting stones was un-Islamic. Such unruly mob behaviour has always been a big headache for the police, with disgruntled youth using the slightest provocation to gather at various spots in the city and turn bricks and stones into missiles (veteran mobsters could even injure cops by hurling flat stones through the cracks of their cane shields). But after Mujtaba made his Hadith reference, the separatist leadership found itself divided. Some of them agreed with Mujtaba, while others argued that stone pelting was the only weapon of the weak. It even prompted a senior separatist leader to hold a seminar on the issue.

But Mujtaba didnt leave it at that. Sources talk of his novel methods to corner some of the regular stone pelters. Under one such plan, he asked some of his plainclothes men to blend in with stone pelters, but equipped with Bluetooth hands-free mobile kits. As they joined the pelting, the undercover cops led some of them towards the police cordon. Once close, the plainclothes policemen turned on the stone pelters, pushing them towards their trap lying in wait.

Plus, Mujtaba has also been part of some of the polices fiercest encounters with militants. His colleagues swear by his agility during such high-risk operations in the Valley. He has handled many that involved terrorists on deadly suicide missions. Mujtaba himself keeps a low profile, reluctant to discuss his feats with anyone.

I am just doing my job, he says, with a smile which disappears in a second.

*AASHIQ BUKHARI

Assistant Inspector General*

Budgam district is the first militant-free district of Kashmir. There was a time when there were more than 200 most wanted militants operating in this area. Most of them were done for once Aashiq Bukhari took over the reins of the police in the district. Once posted, he lost no time in leading extensive operations against militancy, and with undaunted energy.

In one such operation, the police managed to catch a bus-load of arms coming from the bordering town of Kupwara. In another search operation, they discovered three truckloads of liquid explosives hidden in a bunker (its hatch hidden under a commode) in the Chanapora locality.

We got that damn house blasted, says Bukhari. He has been instrumental in the killing of about 300 militants. Some top militants were even given instructions to bump off the brave police officer. One of them was a dreaded Pakistani militant married to a local woman, Ali, who was later killed by Bukharis men.

None of the assassins could get him. The Army is for the borders, he says, It is only the local police which can deal with militancy. He is also against what he calls the sarkari goondaism (official hooliganism) of the Army. The soldiers in the Army convoys carry these long bamboo poles and threaten people moving around. This alienates people further and creates hatred for the man in uniform, says Bukhari, shaking his head.

But, of course, the militant always fires the first shot. He fires right back.

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## EjazR

*Cops Get Rewards, Promotions*

Srinagar, KONS: With the government keen to place local police on the fore front of security operations in Kashmir a slew of medals and other rewards were announced today for the department by Director General of Police, Kuldeep Khoda.
"For their hard work, dedication and meritorious services, exhibited by them during the year 2009, the Director General of Police, Mr. Kuldeep Khoda, today awarded D.G.Ps Commendation Medals and Certificates to 154 officers and jawans of Jammu and Kashmir Police", an official spokesman said. 
The awardees include 13 Superintendents of Police, one Deputy Director Prosecution, 3 Chief Prosecuting Officers, 24 Deputy Superintendents of Police, 2 Senior Prosecuting Officers, 17 Inspectors, one Prosecuting Officer, 15 Sub-Inspectors, 11 Assistant Sub-Inspectors, 24 Head Constables, 12 Selection Grade Constables, 27 Constables and 4 Followers.
The Superintendents of Police who have been awarded are S/Shri V.K.Birdi, Dr. Koshal Kumar, Sheikh Junaid Mehmood, Roop Raj Bhagat, Mahadeep Singh Jamwal, Haseeb-Ur-Rehman, Zahid Naseem Manhas, P. L. Bhat,
Jang Bhadur Singh, Javaid Hassan Bhat, Maqsood-Ul-Zaman, M.Y.Kichloo and Mohammad Amin Bulbul,
The awardees belonging to Prosecution wing of Police Department are S/Shri Mushtaq Ahmad Pandith, Pawan Khajuria, Khalid Muzaffar Jan, Javeed Iqbal, Rajiv Kumar, Rajesh Gill and Suhaib Ashraf Allaqaband.
The Deputy Superintendents of Police who have been awarded are S/Shri Mukesh Kumar, Arif Amin Shah, Sanjay Kumar Parihar, Mohammad Anwar-ul-Haq Wasim Qadri, Azhar Bashir Baba, Tanvir Ahmed, Hera Lal Pandita, Ashutosh Sharma, Mubashir Hussain, Ghulam Jeelani, Sheikh Zulfikar Azad, Muzafar Ahmed Shah, Shahzad Ahmed Salaria, Vijay Kumar Khajuria, Mohan Singh, Ms Shaheen Wahid, Tahir Ashraf, Mohammad Amin, Mushtaq Ahmad, Mushim Ahmed, P. K. Modi, Shahid Parvaiz and Vijay Kumar.
The Inspectors and Sub-Inspectors awarded include S/Shri Om Parkash, Mohd Zubair, S. Suraj Singh , Ghulam Jeelani, Naresh Kumar, Taran Singh, Vishal Manhas, Habibullah, Pawan Kumar, Anuroop Sharma, Devinder Singh, Sheikh Manzoor Qadir, Mehraj-ud-din, Mohamad Yousuf, Bashir Ahmad Dar, Tahir Kawsar Malik, Rajinder Salgotra, Brahm Dutt, Khursheed Ahmed, Sunil Kumar Shasoo, Dharminder Chand, Bashir Ahmad, Mohd. Rafi, Mohammad Latief Bhat, Amit Koul, Anoop Singh, Mohammad Sadiq, Vinod Kumar, Ghulam Hyder, Aakash Kotwal, Vimal Kumar and Mohd Sadiq.
The Assistant Sub-Inspectors and Head Constables are S/Shri Syed Showkat Ali, Suraj Prakash, Tarsem Lal, Mohd Shafi, Mohd.Saleem, Mohd. Shafi, Abdul Rashid Rather, Balbir Singh, Rattan Lal, Bashir Ahmed, Ahtisham-ul-Haq, Ramesh, Paramjit Singh, Mohan Lal, Balwan Singh, Girdhari Lal, Bashir Ahmed, Nissar Ahmed, Ashok Kumar, Gopal Dutt, Bansi Lal, Shamsheer Hussain, Mulkh Raj, Darshan Lal, Karnail Singh, Bashir Ahmed, Mir, Saidullah, Mohammad Yousuf, Habibullah, Sham Lal Bupinder Singh, Sudershan Kumar, Irshad Ahmad, Roop Krishan and Joginder Singh.
The Selection Grade Constables, Constables and Followers who have been awarded are S/Shri Mohd Ayaz, Khursheed Ahmed, Ranjeet Singh, Nasir Ahmed, Gulsheraz Ahmed, Gulzar Ahmad, Mohd Naseer, Sohan Singh, Kaka Ram, Gulzar Ahmed, Kamal Kishore, Ashwani Kumar, Simmi Sharma, Devender Kumar, Munu Ji Koul, Mohd Sajad, Akbar Ali, Zaffar Iqbal, Showkat Ali, Shafeeq, Sumesh Kumar, Aijaz Ahmed, Vinod Zutshi, Reyaz Ahmad, Sunil Kumar, Ashiq Hussain, Nazir Ahmed, Gh. Hassan, Raj Kumar, Mohd Shabir, Romesh Singh, Ghulam Hussain, Girdhari Lal, Rakesh Kumar, Deep Singh, Krishan Singh, Anil Kumar, Jagdish Singh, Onkar Singh, Dewan Chand, Imtiyaz Ahmed, Altaf Ahmad and Jia Lal.
*Khoda orders 107 promotions in JKP*
Director General of Police (DGP), Mr. Kuldeep Khoda, today issued promotion orders in Ministerial, Stenography and Wireless cadres of Jammu and Kashmir Police with immediate effect, which include 14 Sub-Inspectors as Inspectors and 61 Assistant Sub-Inspectors as Sub Inspectors and 32 Head Constables as Assistant Sub-Inspectors.
The Sub-Inspectors promoted as Inspectors are S/Shri Farooq Ahmed, Mehraj-Ud-Din, Abdul Rashid Dar, Ghulam Hassan Gojri, Mohammad Ashraf, Altaf Hussain, Mohammad Yousuf. Mohammad Afzal Bhat, Ms Veena Kumari, Peer Abdul Haq, Mohammad Ashraf, Mushtaq Ahmad Wani, Mohammad Ramzan and Mir Mohammad Yousuf
Similarly, the Assistant Sub-Inspectors promoted as Sub-Inspectors are S/Shri Moti Lal, Ghulam Nabi, Ghulam Mohammad, Fayaz Ahmad, Abdul Rashid, Manzoor Ahmad, ,Varinder Singh , Satpaul Singh, Narinder Singh, Bodh Raj, Madan Lal, Manzoor Ahmad, Triloki Nath, Mohammad Saleem, Bashir Ahmad Magery, Ghulam Mohi-ud-Din, Ghulam Nabi Dar, Ashwani Kumar, Mohammad Amin, Kirti Bushan, Bunti Kumari, Bashir Ahmad Naja, Mohammad Ramzan, Syed Bakir Shah, Mohammad Saleem, Miss Rozy Bhat, Rakesh Kumar, Pankaj Arora, Rajesh Singh Jasrotia, Ashraf Rasool Mir, Firdous Ahmad Wani, Farooq Ahmad Dar, Vikas Sharma, Pankaj Sharma, Mohammad Saleem, Ashish Mahajan, Reyaz Ahmad Shah, Rohit Chibber, Hira Lal Pandit, Karanjit Singh, Ms.Shakti Koul, Rajesh Kumar Tikoo, Irshad Ahmad, Zaffar Ali, Kulwant Singh, Bansi Lal, Surinder Singh, Hafiz-ullah, Uttam Singh, Satish Kumar, Suresh Kumar, Kanaya Lal, Ashok Kumar, Ashok Kumar, Daleep Kumar, Nazir Ahmad, Harcharan Singh, Rajinder Kumar, Vijay Kumar, Mohammad Sadiq and Abdul Rashid
The Head Constables promoted as Assistant Sub-Inspectors are S/Shri Firdous Ahmad Wani, Farooq Ahmad Dar, Vikas Sharma, Pankaj Sharma, Mohammad Saleem, Ashish Mahajan, Reyaz Ahmad Shah, Rohit Chibber, Hira Lal Pandit, Karanjit Singh, Ms.Shakti Koul, Rajesh Kumar Tikoo, Firdous Ahmad, Sharif-ud-din, Ghulam Mohammad, Ghulam Ahmad lone, Mohammad Ashraf, Shakeel Ahmad, Ghulam Mohammad, Farooq Ahmad Bhat, Abdul Qayoom, Abdul Rashid, Noor-ul-Hassan, Shuban Lal, Mohammad Shafi, Mohammad Ashraf,Bashir Ahmad, Hassan Din, Ghulam Mohi-ud-din, Farooq Ahmad, Mohammad Maqbool and Mohammad Ishaq,

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## EjazR

Here are a few pics from the J&K police website. You can check out more and and get some interesting info here *Jammu & Kashmir Police - In the service of the nation since 1873*

*In action*




*In training*

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## RobbieS

Eye opening article. Read it yesterday as I think you posted the link in another thread. 

It would be interesting to read the comments of our Pakistani friends.


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## Materialistic

Its all the matter of what you want to see and what you don't.

An army of 700,000 in a place India claims as its state by constitution, how come?

Killings of Kashmiri's, mass graves of more than 900-1000 human beings, were they all terrorists caught in once ! I suppose that would be a world record then.

9000 women raped, y ? Because they were Pakistan's funded militants?

No act of UN's 1947 resolution to have a referendum in Kahsmir.
And many more.. 

And on that, all of a sudden some text which seems like a movie action comes up as an eye opener, what is the reliability of source or that this is not government's funded propaganda? Or for those Police officers who was the eye-witness? 

And those pictures, a police man helping a women to lift that load in the middle of the road , well of course anyone will do in normal day life. 

*Female officer helping children cross the road when the photographer himself is standing in the middle of road and taking a picture. Hahahahahhaa. It makes clear that its a pose.*

What these pictures are showing that India loves kashmir and its people and its police helps children cross the road and lift the fallen loads. 

*All the text and pictures above clearly show they are part of Governments promotional activities(a usual thing) when they are trying hard to take out troops(16,000 of whom have and are getting bladder problems which costs expensive surgeries) and let police control the area.
Its all fake and doesn't really matter to the issue even if it holds true.
*

*And the strange bit is, all those police officers are Muslims. Muslims who on behalf of their religion wanted to merge Kashmir with Pakistan at the time of Independence as per the basic Law for division. Its a very focused campaign towards Muslim Majority Population of Kashmir to bring them closer to India.*.

Source: for a few facts that I mentioned.
http://www.ediec.org/news/newsitem/article/kashmir-the-quite-fire-of-the-himalayas/

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## dabong1

If the kashmiris love india.......why are the indians so scared have having a vote to let the people choose,surley india will win the vote and that would be the end of the problem.


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## EjazR

*@Materialistic*

By most accounts all security forces combined (i.e. army, paramilitary and police) is around 500,000. The J&K is a muslim majority state so it would be natural to have a muslim majority police force. Even the separatists have said that they have no problem with the J&K police as they are more knowledgeable about locals and target militants successfully instead of say the army of CPRF that may get panicked and resort to indiscriminate firing.

The people of J&K and particularly the valley Kashmiris have a long history of protecting their land against foreigners. When the tribals launched their raids and were knocking on the doors of Srinagar after pillaging the country side. It was the local Kashmiris under Sheikh Abdullah who took the reigns of the administration and held up against the invaders while the IA was air lifted in. This group later became the J&K infantry division.

And lastly you are mixing politics with religion. The valley Kashmiris under Sheikh Abdulla had no intention of joining Pakistan. Why were there no uprisings in 65 or 71 or 99 when it would have been much more easier to destablise J&K govt. 

Also read his speech to the UN in 1948 on this *Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah's Speech in
UN Security Council (February 1948)*


I hope you can now realise that the militants HUJI, LeT, Hizb are nothing but TTP clones. The JKLF cadre that consisted of local Kashmiris has already declared ceasefire in '95. After that period, only foreigners have dominated these attacks.

Ofcourse there should be no tolerance of HR violations by an IA, paramilitary or even the local J&K police. But there should be no double standard for the militants who threaten anyone who opposes them including the locals either.

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## EjazR

dabong1 said:


> If the kashmiris love india.......why are the indians so scared have having a vote to let the people choose,surley india will win the vote and that would be the end of the problem.



If you are talking about elections, they are held quite regularly. If you are talking about referendums, the Shimla Accord agreed to resolve the issue bilaterally. So GoP will first have to revoke the Shimla Accords.

Moreover, the separatists actually want independence, not joiing Pakistan and the UN resolutions and referendum does not allow for that. And if India does win, do we have any guarantee that China will return the part of J&K it occupies?

Anyways, many opinion polls have been done on this matter, the most comprehensive one by an Irish group specializing in conflict studies. Below is the relevant poll. It also showed that overwhelming majority preferred a secular J&K. The detailed survey and report can be found on www.peacepolls.org

http://f.imagehost.org/view/0091/JandKopinionpoll2009

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## notsuperstitious

Thanks EjazR.

The biggest problem central forces face is the language barrier. Not to mention they are very unpopular as they are seen as occupiers.


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## Roby

*Kashmir militants kill two Indian soldiers *

SRINAGAR: Militants killed two Indian army soldiers during a mountain gun battle in revolt-hit Kashmir, the military said Friday, in the latest of a series of clashes this month.

The fighting erupted late Thursday in the mountains of southern Kishtwar district, army spokesman Biplab Nath told AFP.

Troops have launched an intensive search to arrest or eliminate the militants, he said.

Reinforcements have been rushed to the area, he added.

The attack came hours after suspected militants shot and wounded Ismail Lone, a senior official of the Communist Party of India in southern Kulgam district, a police spokesman said. Lone's nephew was also hurt in the shootout.

Militants often attack pro-India politicians and their workers in Muslim-majority Kashmir where separatists have waged a two-decade revolt against New Delhi's rule.

Kashmir had been relatively stable in recent months but violence has spiked in the past few weeks.

Earlier this month, Indian commandos stormed a hotel in Kashmir's main city Srinagar and killed two militants who had been holed up in the guesthouse for nearly 24 hours. A civilian and a policeman also died in the siege.

Attacks and clashes have continued since the siege.

The insurgency has claimed more than 47,000 lives, according to an official count.


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## Spitfighter

What a bunch of idiots, what do they think they will achieve by fighting? 

They will be cornered and killed like dogs, may the fallen soldiers rest in peace. If a bunch of rag tag cave dwelling illiterate bastards think they can bend a country of 1.2 billion people to their whims and fancies they have another thing coming. We can keep going till there is no one left to fight


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## ek_indian

Spitfighter said:


> What a bunch of idiots, what do they think they will achieve by fighting?
> 
> They will be cornered and killed like dogs, may the fallen soldiers rest in peace. If a bunch of rag tag cave dwelling illiterate bastards think they can bend a country of 1.2 billion people to their whims and fancies they have another thing coming. We can keep going till there is no one left to fight



Cool down bro...they are idiots.
They can continue their war for another 1000 years but nothing will be achieved. Had they been educated properly, they might be of some good.

RIP to the soldiers.


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## Windjammer

Spitfighter said:


> What a bunch of idiots, what do they think they will achieve by fighting?
> 
> They will be cornered and killed like dogs, may the fallen soldiers rest in peace. If a bunch of rag tag cave dwelling illiterate bastards think they can bend a country of 1.2 billion people to their whims and fancies they have another thing coming. We can keep going till there is no one left to fight



It seems they have got your attention.!!!


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## ek_indian

Nah....Nowadays nobody pays attention to them except Indian Army.


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## mr42O

Spitfighter said:


> What a bunch of idiots, what do they think they will achieve by fighting?
> 
> They will be cornered and killed like dogs, may the fallen soldiers rest in peace. If a bunch of rag tag cave dwelling illiterate bastards think they can bend a country of 1.2 billion people to their whims and fancies they have another thing coming. We can keep going till there is no one left to fight



What do India think they will get by not letting Kashmir there freedom. Indian human rights tell most of story what happens there. Its for some reason no neutral media is allowed in Kashmir.

As Pakistan always said follow UN Resulation which says there should be election in Kashmr


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## Spitfighter

Windjammer said:


> It seems they have got your attention.!!!



Oh they've got it alright, and I'm sure the GoI is watching the situation pretty closely too, what these bastards fail to realize is that India has more money, more people, more firepower and more support. Kashmir is ours, for now and forever, Pakistan can't change that, the terrorists can't change that, heck the entire planet can't change that. We will fight till the end of time, we have more troops in Kashmir than Pakistan has in its entire military.


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## Spitfighter

mr42O said:


> What do India think they will get by not letting Kashmir there freedom. Indian human rights tell most of story what happens there. Its for some reason no neutral media is allowed in Kashmir.
> 
> As Pakistan always said follow UN Resulation which says there should be election in Kashmr



Pakistan has violated the UNSC resolutions on several occasions, so do some research before you post. 

In either case, Kashmir is ours and no one on the planet has any right to interfere or the capability to do anything about it.


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## Spitfighter

ek_indian said:


> Cool down bro...they are idiots.
> They can continue their war for another 1000 years but nothing will be achieved. Had they been educated properly, they might be of some good.
> 
> RIP to the soldiers.



Agreed, the best way to fight these cave dwellers is with patience. They haven't achieved squat in 20 years and they won't achieve squat for another 100, 1000 or a million years. We'll make sure of it. 

May the fallen soldiers RIP.

Jai Hind.

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## Windjammer

Spitfighter said:


> we have more troops in Kashmir than Pakistan has in its entire military.



I do indeed believe you there, but isn't it ironic that despite such majority, they are unable to contain a few hundred freedom fighters.

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## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> Please go figure out your problems in Balochistan and NWFP and FATA and then come and lecture about Kashmir. Kasmir is as much a part of India as Balochistan or even Lahore and Islamabad are of Pakistan..



Well then, one wonders why even the Indian leadership have started to state that "Kashmir is also an issue between India and Pakistan". ??? !!!


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## graphican

Spitfighter said:


> Oh they've got it alright, and I'm sure the GoI is watching the situation pretty closely too, what these bastards fail to realize is that India has more money, more people, more firepower and more support. Kashmir is ours, for now and forever, Pakistan can't change that, the terrorists can't change that, heck the entire planet can't change that. *We will fight till the end of time, we have more troops in Kashmir than Pakistan has in its entire military*.



Alas militry strength is your legitimacy of claiming Kashmir as yours. I wish you had better perspective on that. Look at USA who used to call Afghanistan a piece of dust and under estimate potential of its nationals to fight back. Kashmirs, after having sacrificing 90,000 thousands are not ready to bow to your Militry Might. Think some.


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## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> Well then, one wonders why even the Indian leadership have started to state that "Kashmir is also an issue between India and Pakistan". ??? !!!



Thats very simple.. Because Pakistan has illegally occupied a large part of it


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## owais.usmani

2 down, another 6 million to go.


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## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> Thats very simple.. Because Pakistan has illegally occupied a large part of it



Alright, you know where it is, come and get it......................
Between the eyes.


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## karan.1970

graphican said:


> Alas militry strength is your legitimacy of claiming Kashmir as yours. I wish you had better perspective on that. Look at USA who used to call Afghanistan a piece of dust and under estimate potential of its nationals to fight back. Kashmirs, after having sacrificing 90,000 thousands are not ready to bow to your Militry Might. Think some.



Its not the kashmiris that have that problem. Its the foreign terrorists sponsored by Pakistan who are the issue.. But wait and watch.. the tide is turning.. There will be a repeat of Punjab that will happen here too..


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## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> Not really since these choohe keep hiding all over the place including across the border and hence require a lot of armed presence. But its getting better.. Troop reduction is happening since last 15 months have seen a significant drop in terrorist activities.. surprisingly coincides with taliban's ar5e getting kicked in NWFP region and pakistani military being kept occupied there.. Hmm... hell of a coincidence..


Shouldn't count your blessings just yet, the job in NWFP is almost done.


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## graphican

karan.1970 said:


> Its not the kashmiris that have that problem. Its the foreign terrorists sponsored by Pakistan who are the issue.. But wait and watch.. the tide is turning.. There will be a repeat of Punjab that will happen here too..



One reason why you are not able to solve Kashmir and bring down unrest there is the reason because you believe "Problem Lies Out There". Keep imagining this problem is arriving entirely from across the border and I hope you will solve it sometime soon.


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## Ultimate Warrior

These are forien terriorist, brainwshed and traned in Pakistan.

Pakistanis are amusing they claim Kashmir and forget about the China occupied Kashmir. They talk about referendum but intentionally forget it should be in Azad Kashmir, China.O.K. and Jammu+Ladakh+Kashmir Vally = Jammu & Kashmir.

They don't care about anyone just hate India. That's it.


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## EjazR

If you read the article, it clearly says that the militants were targetting pro-India politicians.

Why? Are Kashmiris now so easily swayed by a pro-India politician from the CPI? Or do they just want to use the gun to silence any Kashmiri who rejects the two nation theory or even those sepratists who just want to talk to GoI. The recent attack on Hurriyet leader Qureshi is another example.

Just like Pakistan has alienated Afghans with its policy of supporting proxies, so it has happened in Kashmir. Ofcourse there may be fringe fanatics like some Taliban elements and Geelani group that might be pro-Pakistan, but most of the separatists even don't agree and denounce the violence by militants.


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## dabong1

Spitfighter said:


> What a bunch of idiots, what do they think they will achieve by fighting?
> 
> They will be cornered and killed like dogs, may the fallen soldiers rest in peace. If a bunch of rag tag cave dwelling illiterate bastards think they can bend a country of 1.2 billion people to their whims and fancies they have another thing coming. We can keep going till there is no one left to fight



Now i could be rude and say the same thing about the indian occupation forces in kashmir.

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## dabong1

Sorry for the delay in posting back......i didnt see your reply.



EjazR said:


> If you are talking about elections, they are held quite regularly.



voter turnout does not legitimise alien occupation. For instance, the voter turnout in the 1967 presidential election under U.S. occupation in South Vietnam was even higher. Writing in The New York Times on September 4, 1967, Peter Grose reported: "United States officials were surprised and heartened today at the size of turnout in South Vietnam's presidential election despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting. According to reports from Saigon, 83 per cent of the 5.85 million registered voters cast their ballots yesterday. Many of them risked reprisals threatened by the Vietcong." The article added: "A successful election has long been seen as the keystone in President Johnson's policy of encouraging the growth of constitutional processes in South Vietnam... . The purpose of the voting was to give legitimacy to the Saigon government..." 



EjazR said:


> If you are talking about referendums, the Shimla Accord agreed to resolve the issue bilaterally. So GoP will first have to revoke the Shimla Accords.



No need for the GoP to revoke the Shimla Accords when it has already been done after the indian invasion of sachin.

(ii) In Jammu and Kashmir, the line of control resulting from the ceasefire of December 17, 1971, shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognised position of either side. *Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally, irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations. Both sides further undertake to refrain from the threat or the use of force in violation of this line.*



EjazR said:


> Moreover, the separatists actually want independence, not joiing Pakistan and the UN resolutions and referendum does not allow for that.



Well dont include the question it in the referendum.......even though i think it should be included for sake of being fair.



EjazR said:


> And if India does win, do we have any guarantee that China will return the part of J&K it occupies?



Include china in the process.



EjazR said:


> Anyways, many opinion polls have been done on this matter, the most comprehensive one by an Irish group specializing in conflict studies. Below is the relevant poll. It also showed that overwhelming majority preferred a secular J&K. The detailed survey and report can be found on www.peacepolls.org



What makes you think i want a facist-communist-theocracy ect regime to run kashmir?

Like said before...if all the polls show that the kashmiris love india then "why dont you put your money here mouth is" and have a referendum?


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## Windjammer

vsdoc said:


> Is it? Does not remotely look like it from the Rahijijat thread now does it? How many pages and posts? And counting? And the winter is not yet over.
> 
> The job my friend is just begining ..... whichever side of the border one belongs to. The melting snows will show you exactly where and by how much the goalposts have moved .....
> 
> Cheers, Doc


There are facts i am privileged to and you are oblivious of, like the difference between operations, Rahi-e-Nijat and Rah-e-Rast. As Pakistan Army's operations initiated and progressed, it tried and tested new tactics and strategies, like in Swat it started on ground level and worked it's way up into the mountains where as in Waziristan, it hit and cleared the mountain bunkers and hide outs first to deprive the enemy of scouting and cover fire hence the only thing melting snows will reveal at least on our side of border is corpses of enemy fighters. You guys will just have to sit it out .


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## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> Dont need to.. Your govt is doing a pretty good job of giving it to your country..
> 
> Between the eyes



A sadistic case indeed,

Much to do about nothing.!!!


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## DavyJones

@Windjammer - you sure the terrorists have not melted away into the civilian population - to rise again when the time is right!


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## Windjammer

DavyJones said:


> @Windjammer - you sure the terrorists have not melted away into the civilian population - to rise again when the time is right!



In actual fact the civilian Lashkars or committees are taking the toll of Talibans since the locals can easily identify any outside culprits hence every day Taliban corpses are cropping up outside Villages.

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## Peshwa

graphican said:


> One reason why you are not able to solve Kashmir and bring down unrest there is the reason because you believe *"Problem Lies Out There*". Keep imagining this problem is arriving entirely from across the border and I hope you will solve it sometime soon.



Practice what you preach....

May I remind you of TTP, Balochistan.....and other flights of fantasy?...


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## Peshwa

mr42O said:


> What do India think they will get by not letting Kashmir there freedom. Indian human rights tell most of story what happens there. Its for some reason no neutral media is allowed in Kashmir.
> 
> *As Pakistan always said follow UN Resulation which says there should be election in Kashmr*



Please learn to follow the Shimla accord (Another UN mandated treaty) that superceeds a non-binding UN resolution of '47.....

Rhetoric is kinda old....I dont think your own govt cares much for it either.....


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## dabong1

Peshwa said:


> Please learn to follow the Shimla accord (Another UN mandated treaty) that superceeds a non-binding UN resolution of '47.....


Shimla accord
(ii) In Jammu and Kashmir, the line of control resulting from the ceasefire of December 17, 1971, shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognised position of either side.* Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally, irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations.* Both sides further undertake to refrain from the threat or the use of force in violation of this line.
Simla Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I hope you understand that india broke the agreement after the invasion of sachin so it is thus void.



Peshwa said:


> non-binding UN resolution of '47.....


All UN resoultions are non binding!

"All United Nations General Assembly resolutions that are not about matters internal to the UN (such as the structure of the UN or the creation of UN agencies) are inherently and explicitly (in the UN Charter) non-binding."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binding_resolution

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## Gazzi

Personally, no sympathy for these state sponsored terrorist Indian soldiers. They deserved their fate......let them all meet this fate as long as they continue their oppression, keep sending bodies back to their families just like the orphans they have made in Kashmir.....to hell with their dead

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## Windjammer

Peshwa said:


> A common tactic used by the weak to go on "mardangi" and "martial prowess"....
> 
> We dont care whether we live up to your standards....as long as Kashmir is India we will do what it takes.....
> 
> besides our theory is....."Naa rahega baas na bajegi basuri"......


Standing on the boundary shouting for your team is one thing but playing the game on the field is a different ball game. The theory didn't seem to work for the last two decades, now it seems more declined to, "Nach na janey, Angan tera"..........!!!!!.


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## EjazR

*Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - Police employing carrot and stick against stone throwers*

Abid Bashir
Srinagar, Jan 29: In what could be termed as a carrot and stick policy, police has decided to launch area-wise counseling to dissuade youth from stone pelting after slapping Public Safety Acts (PSAs) against some of the stone throwers.

Sources said police has prepared a list of stone throwers with the help of CID and CIK in different police stations. We have got all their antecedents and even possess their photographs, they said.
A police officer, who has been assigned the job to prepare list of habitual stone throwers in Lal Chowk area said, We have identified some 10 to 15 stone throwers in Maisuma. Some of them are young, who can be motivated to give-up stone pelting through counseling while others need to be dealt sternly and should be booked under PSA.
A police official posted in Nowhatta police station said the stone pelters are given at least four to five chances before being booked under PSA. If a same person lands in the police station more than three times, he is either a paid agent or a habitual stone pelter. We let him go. But if he continues to participate in stone pelting then we wont let him go. We will detain him and see how court deals with him, he said.
He said they have received strong directions from the government to take concrete measures to ensure that stone pelting incidents dont happen in the city after Darbar returns to Valley in May.
A top police officer, wishing not be named, told Rising Kashmir that police has already started counseling programs in some areas to persuade youth to refrain from stone pelting. We have succeeded to dissuade many youth from stone pelting. After keeping watch on them, we can say with surety that our counseling efforts are bearing fruits, he said.
The official said the counseling is being done bothindividually and group wise. We first identify the youth, who are not paid agents but take part in stone pelting. Then they are being counseled and motivated to give-up stone pelting. On occasions, the counseling takes more than a week, he said adding, Counseling of more than one youth is also being carried out at a given time.
IGP Kashmir range, Farooq Ahmad said the counseling of stone throwers has started yielding positive results. It is proving to be a success.
*We are focusing on paid stone pelters. There are some youth who are being paid by various agencies to foment trouble. We dont have problems with the youth in general, he said.
IGP said police will be cracking whip on the paid stone throwers.*

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Lol the last part cracked me up.Bloody cheap media.


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## Peshwa

dabong1 said:


> Shimla accord
> (ii) In Jammu and Kashmir, the line of control resulting from the ceasefire of December 17, 1971, shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognised position of either side.* Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally, irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations.* Both sides further undertake to refrain from the threat or the use of force in violation of this line.
> Simla Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> I hope you understand that india broke the agreement after the invasion of sachin so it is thus void.



Please read......

_"The 1972 Simla Agreement did not clearly mention who controlled the glacier, merely stating that from the NJ9842 location the boundary would proceed "thence north to the glaciers." UN officials presumed there would be no dispute between India and Pakistan over such a cold and barren region[6]"_

You cannot call Siachen a violation on grounds of the fact that there was no demarcated boundary.....Early bird got the worm....
Besides, sending expeditions to Siachen without actually informing India is very legit right?....You got played at your own game....

Dont blame us for the lack of attention to detail by the UN....You can take it up with them..... 

But I can tell you this much that "Kargil" was definitely a violation of the agreement especially in light of the fake gestures of peace at Lahore...."Bagal mein Churi Moon main Ram Ram"....is the only way to describe this back stabbing.....



dabong1 said:


> All UN resoultions are non binding!
> 
> "All United Nations General Assembly resolutions that are not about matters internal to the UN (such as the structure of the UN or the creation of UN agencies) are inherently and explicitly (in the UN Charter) non-binding."
> Non-binding resolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



So you only validate my point.....

We have no obligation to conduct a "plebiscite" that Pakistan tries to stick down everyones throat.....
So whats the hulabaloo about?

Besides I think Kofi Annan agreed with us too on the fact that '47 agreement is outdated....


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## Hammy007

Spitfighter said:


> What a bunch of idiots, what do they think they will achieve by fighting?
> 
> They will be cornered and killed like dogs, may the fallen soldiers rest in peace. If a bunch of rag tag cave dwelling illiterate bastards think they can bend a country of 1.2 billion people to their whims and fancies they have another thing coming. We can keep going till there is no one left to fight



and what your stupid army will achieve by forcing people to bend by torturing killing and raping them???

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## Windjammer

Peshwa said:


> Pakistan obviously doesnt know much about "Playing the game on the field".....Using substitutes is how your team decides to play the game and prove its "prowess"....Obviously Pakistanis shouldnt be the ones lecturing us about standing on the boundary lines.....
> 
> Only problem is 2 decades of losses and your team is still "unfit" to play.....
> Dont blame us if you're too chicken to take up the real fight.....


Really, it so seems you guys have even learned a thin or two from our experience, and we have equally proved to friends and foes as to how it's done and others had to swallow the bitter pill to acknowledge our prowess and determination.
My dear Peshwa, "Ulta Chour Kutwal ko dantey"
I wonder who chickened out after assembling a million troops on the border and a year later withdrawing unilaterally.


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## EjazR

Its actually local kashmiri owned news outfit. And is usually highly critical of security forces.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Its a kashmiri media outfit shouldnt itbe talking about AZADI instead of STONE THROWERS BEING PAID BY a VIDESHI ATANKI AGENCY


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## Hulk

I have been suspecting this quit often, there are people who are interested in making sure that world thinks that people are unhappy with Indian government. I am not saying there is nobody unhappy, there are good amount of people, but when you see people throwing stones for no reasons then you know something is wrong. You get 10 to 20 odd paid stone throwers and there would be few who will get carried away in emotions and suddenly things started to look so different.

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## Creder

yeah ISI's gotta a headquarter in Gaza and they have a special stone throwing corp... "The stone berrets"...they drill people on various techniques for throwing stones and remain incognito at the same time, one of their complex stone throwing exercises involves the highly top secret drill called "gulli danda" where the stone thrower is taught to perfect the projectory of the stones...Recently ISI has deployed this special force in kashmir and they also make guest appearances in Assassin's creed 2

Mods dont delete this :'(

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## DESERT FIGHTER

*The stone berrets *HAHAHAHAH LOL WELL SAID CREDER


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## dabong1

Peshwa said:


> _"The 1972 Simla Agreement did not clearly mention who controlled the glacier, merely stating that from the NJ9842 location the boundary would proceed "thence north to the glaciers." UN officials presumed there would be no dispute between India and Pakistan over such a cold and barren region[6]"_
> 
> You cannot call Siachen a violation on grounds of the fact that there was no demarcated boundary.....Early bird got the worm....
> Besides, sending expeditions to Siachen without actually informing India is very legit right?....You got played at your own game....
> 
> Dont blame us for the lack of attention to detail by the UN....You can take it up with them.....



Shimla accord
(ii) In Jammu and Kashmir, the line of control resulting from the ceasefire of December 17, 1971, shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognised position of either side. Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally, irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations. Both sides further undertake to refrain from the threat or the use of force in violation of this line.

No matter how u try to worm your way out it clearly says  Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally, irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations......it does not matter what excuse you use its against the simla accord and thus simla accord is void.


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## dabong1

Peshwa said:


> We have no obligation to conduct a "plebiscite" that Pakistan tries to stick down everyones throat.....
> So whats the hulabaloo about?



....You dont even understand the point!


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## EjazR

*A Guide to Militant Groups in Kashmir- The Jamestown Foundation*


Publication: Terrorism Monitor Volume: 8 Issue: 5
February 4, 2010 

By: Arif Jamal

After a few years of relative calm, militancy is slowly but surely resurfacing in the Indian administered state of Jammu and Kashmir. In a smaller-scale repeat of Mumbai, two terrorists occupied the Punjab Hotel in downtown Srinagar on January 6. They remained held up there for nearly 24 hours before police commandos killed them. However, the terrorists succeeded in setting the hotel on fire before the holdup came to an end. As in Mumbai, the terrorists took orders from handlers in Pakistan who used five different cell-phone numbers. Their handlers had already used two of these numbers to guide the attackers in Mumbai (The Hindu, January 10). Police later said that one terrorist was from Kashmir and the other from Pakistan and pointed an accusing finger at the Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), the same group responsible for Mumbai. However, a little-known group, Jamiat ul-Mujahideen, later claimed responsibility for the holdup (AFP, January 8).

*Over 150 Islamist groups*

In the early days of jihad in Kashmir, between 1988 and 1990, more than 150 groups surfaced on the jihadist scene. Some of these groups united to form bigger groups such as Hizb ul-Mujahideen, but most of them simply disappeared. Some of those which still exist are mere shadows of their past and have very few followers. None except the Hizb ul-Mujahideen have the capability of carrying out militant operations inside Indian-administered Kashmir on their own. Some of these groups collaborate occasionally with Pakistani groups such as Lashkar-e-Taiba to justify their existence.

*Hizbul Mujahideen
*
From its start in October 1989, Hizb ul-Mujahideen started gaining strength as it became the armed wing of not only the Jamaat-i-Islami of Jammu and Kashmir but also of the Jamaat-i-Islami of Pakistan and Azad Kashmir (&#8220;Free Kashmir,&#8221; i.e. Pakistani controlled Kashmir). The Jamaat-i-Islami of Jammu and Kashmir elevated minor politician Mohammed Yusuf Shah, (a.k.a. Salahuddin, after the mediaeval Muslim general Salah al-Din) to the rank of supreme commander of the Hizb ul-Mujahideen. [1] Yusuf Shah cleansed the movement of everybody who did not agree with the ideology of the Jamaat-i-Islami or posed a threat to his personal leadership. In its early years, Hizb ul-Mujahideen boasted as many as 10,000 jihadist fighters, but currently the number of its members is barely in the hundreds. In the last 20 years, the Jamaat-i-Islami of Pakistan and Azad Kashmir had tens of thousands of young men trained in jihad in Kashmir. They are mostly waiting in the wings as sleeper cells. [2]

*Ansar ul-Islam and Jamiat ul-Mujahideen*

Jamiat ul-Mujahideen traces its roots back to the now forgotten Ansar ul-Islam (Helpers of Islam), a small group of Islamists active in Kashmir since the mid-1980s. Ansar ul-Islam was the first important Islamist group to emerge in Kashmir and helped turn the secular liberation struggle by the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front into an Islamist jihad. Ansarul Islam was founded by Hilal Ahmed Mir (a.k.a. Nasir ul-Islam). Hilal Ahmed Mir dreamed of unifying the Islamists in Kashmir under one umbrella as Islam ka fouji bazu (the armed wing of Islam). [3] He was opposed to the intention of Pakistan&#8217;s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) to turn the group into the armed wing of the Jamaat-i-Islami, the Islamist political party founded by Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi. In 1989, a dozen jihadist groups united to form Hizb ul-Mujahideen, but the struggle continued between the group led by Hilal Ahmed Mir and the faction led by Master Ahsan Dar, a veteran jihadi from North Kashmir who wanted to turn the new group into the armed wing of the Jamaat-i-Islami. The ISI supported the latter and Hilal Ahmed Mir left Hizb ul-Mujahideen to form Jamiat ul-Mujahideen in June 1991. After the death of Hilal Ahmed Mir, Ghulam Rasool Shah (a.k.a. General Abdullah) became the amir of the Jamiat ul-Mujahideen. Today, the group does not have more than a few dozen followers.

*Sectarian Jihadist Groups*

The foremost goal of most of the Kashmiri youth who took up arms was to oppose what they called &#8220;Indian occupation.&#8221; However, there were two important sectarian groups: the Shi&#8217;a Hizbul Momineen and the Salafist Tehrik ul-Mujahideen. Apart from the Hizb ul-Mujahideen, the ISI allowed only the Tehrik ul-Mujahideen from Indian-administered Kashmir (led by Maulana Jamilur Rehman) to set up its own training camps. The most important of these, Ma&#8217;askar (camp) Abdullah bin Mubarak, was set up outside of Mansehra district. Although the Tehrik ul-Mujahideen attracted very few Kashmiris, it trained thousands of young Pakistani recruits from the Markazi Jamiat Ahle Hadith (an Islamist political party) at its training camp. The Markazi Jamiat Ahle Hadith (Assembly of the Way of the Followers) adopted Tehrik ul-Mujahideen as its armed wing in the late 1990s.

In the early days of the Kashmir jihad, Maulana Abbass Ansari, who heads the Shi&#8217;a political party Ittehad ul-Muslimeen, set up a Shi&#8217;a militant group under the command of Mir Tahir. [4] Under the influence of Saudi Arabia, the ISI discouraged Shi&#8217;a Muslims from joining the jihad in both Afghanistan and Kashmir. Maulana Abbass Ansari has a vast following among the Shi&#8217;a of Kashmir and was deemed particularly unacceptable by the ISI. Consequently, the Shi&#8217;a militants had to wind up their jihadi infrastructure and join the political field in the early 1990s. At the same time, the ISI encouraged a rival Shi&#8217;a group, Hizb ul-Momineen. Hizbul Momineen accepted only Shi&#8217;a recruits. The first commander of the Hizb ul-Momineen, Shuja Abbas, developed differences with the ISI in the late 1990s and had to quit. Now led by Syed Ijaz, Hizb ul-Momineen has engaged in little militant activity in recent years. The most important role of the Hizb ul-Momineen has been to save the Kashmir jihad from drifting into Shi&#8217;a-Sunni sectarian conflict when the ISI asked the movement to claim responsibility for the assassination of pro-Indian Shiites who were actually being killed by Sunni jihadis. This was done to prevent India from stirring sectarian tensions by claiming that Sunnis were killing Shi&#8217;a in Kashmir.

*Harakat ul-Jihad al-Islami and its Deobandi Offshoots*

The Harakat ul-Jihad al-Islami (HuJI), a Deobandi group of Afghan jihad veterans led by Qari &#8220;Saifullah&#8221; Akhtar, was the first external group to join the jihad in Kashmir, though its role was initially limited. By 1993, the Kashmiri groups, including Hizb ul-Mujahideen, started showing weakness. The Indian army&#8217;s strategy of crushing the militancy by punishing militants&#8217; families worked to a great extent and neutralized a large number of the Kashmiri militants. This is when the ISI started pushing Pakistani militants into the Kashmir theatre of jihad. A group calling itself Harakat ul-Mujahideen under the leadership of Maulana Fazlur Rehman Khalil split from HuJI in 1991. As Kashmir opened up for the Pakistani and international mujahideen, the HuJI groups reunited under the name of Harkat ul-Ansar, under the leadership of Maulana Saadatullah. Harakat ul-Ansar pushed as many mujahideen as possible from Pakistan and other Muslim countries to Kashmir and became the principal player on the jihadi scene. It raised its profile by launching several high-profile operations such as Operation Charar Sharif, Operation al-Hadid and Operation al-Faran. The latter two targeted Western nationals and brought Harakat ul-Ansar onto the center stage of international jihad in 1994. It split once more into its former groups under Western pressure.

*Jaish-i-Mohammad*

Harakat ul-Mujahideen, itself a splinter group of HuJI, split again in 2000 when Maulana Masood Azhar formed the Jaish-i-Mohammad (Army of Mohammad). Some of the Harakat ul-Mujahideen militants hijacked an Indian aircraft on the eve of Christmas and took it to Qandahar in Afghanistan. They released the passengers only when India released three top militants from Indian jails. One of them was Maulana Masood Azhar, an ideologue of Harakat ul-Mujahideen. Instead of rejoining his parent group, Maulana Masood Azhar formed his own group, Jaish-i-Mohammad, in February 2000. Jaish-i-Mohammad drew cadres from all the Deobandi groups, particularly from the Harakat ul-Mujahideen and Sipah-i-Sahaba Pakistan. It was a great victory for Maulana Masood Azhar to win over Maulana Abdul Jabbar, who was sent to Afghanistan to run the Jaish-i-Mohammad training camp near Kabul. He was also the bridge between the Jaish-i-Mohammad and al-Qaeda.

*9/11 and the Deobandi Jihadist Groups*

The U.S.-led attack on Afghanistan and the fall of the Taliban in 2001 jolted the Deobandi groups. Consequently, the Deobandi jihadist groups scaled down their operations in Kashmir and focused on Afghanistan and Pakistan. Although the level of Deobandi terrorism is likely to rise in the coming months and years in Pakistan, they are not likely to take power. The fate of Afghanistan is more likely to determine the fate of the Deobandis in Pakistan. If the U.S.-led coalition withdraws from Afghanistan without completely weakening the Taliban, the Deobandi groups are likely to come back to power in Kabul. The fall of Kabul would immensely strengthen the Deobandi groups in Pakistan.

*Markaz Dawat wal Irshad and Lashkar-e-Taiba*

The role that Pakistani Salafists played in the Afghan jihad was very marginal. They worked under Markaz Dawat wa&#8217;l-Irshad, an educational and jihadi religious movement headed by Hafiz Mohammad Saeed. Their other important leader was Zafar Iqbal (Indian Express, April 27, 2000). [5] Both men taught Islamic studies at the University of Engineering and Technology in Lahore. When the Afghan anti-Soviet jihad came to an end in 1989, the group boasted less than a hundred members. However, the group received a lot of money from Saudi Arabia (including official sources) and grew rapidly. The Markaz set up Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) as its armed wing in 1990 to fight in Kashmir. LeT set up six training camps in Afghanistan and Pakistan-controlled Kashmir where it has trained more than 200,000 jihadists making it the largest jihadist group in the world. [6]

The LeT introduced suicide attacks in Kashmir in 1999 for the first time as a result of encouragement from General Pervez Musharraf, who became Chief of the Army Staff in 1998. Other groups copied the tactic, not only in Kashmir but also in Pakistan. The Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) has perfected the practice in recent years.

When the LeT and Jaish-i-Mohammad carried out a joint attack against India&#8217;s parliament in December 2001, India brought its forces up to the international border. To avoid another war with India and to pacify international public opinion, General Musharraf banned several Islamist and jihadist groups, including the Markaz Dawat wa&#8217;l-Irshad and Lashkar-e-Taiba in January 2002. However, Markaz Dawat wa&#8217;l-Irshad was allowed to change its name in December 2001 before the ban was imposed and continued to function with impunity. Hafiz Saeed announced that Markaz Dawat wa&#8217;l-Irshad had been dissolved, with its members divided between Jamaat ul-Dawah and the LeT. Jamaat ul-Dawah was to henceforth focus on dawaat (preaching) while the LeT focused on jihad in Kashmir. Hafiz Saeed claimed that the two groups were independent of each other, with Jamaat ul-Dawah to be headed by Hafiz Saeed and the LeT by one of his top lieutenants, Maulana Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi. [7] However, the links between the two were never broken and they kept working together. Both groups provided relief in the aftermath of the earthquake in Kashmir in 2005 in full public view (as witnessed by the author).

*The Mumbai Attacks and Future Prospects*

LeT attracted a lot of international attention in November 2008 when it carried out terrorist attacks in Mumbai which targeted Jews and American and European nationals. However, the LeT sent hundreds of its trained recruits into Indian-administered Kashmir during 2009. Heavy infiltration of Indian-administered Kashmir by the LeT has created a lot of tension between the two nuclear neighbors, who occasionally exchange fire along the border.

The Kashmiri jihad has remained a war of liberation for all practical purposes, even for the most extreme groups operating in Indian-administered Kashmir, such as Hizb ul-Mujahideen. There have been few, if any, militants from Indian-administered Kashmir who took part in the global jihad. However, most Pakistani jihadi groups, including those from Pakistani-administered Kashmir, have a global agenda and Kashmir is only their first stop. With the militants from Indian-administered Kashmir retreating and the Pakistani jihadists taking over the center stage, the Kashmir jihad has drifted into global jihad. Kashmir&#8217;s two jihads are converging fast.

_Arif Jamal is a visiting fellow at the New York University and author of &#8220;Shadow War &#8211; The Untold Story of Jihad in Kashmir.&#8221;_

*Notes:*
1. Author's interview with Master Ahsan Dar, Muzaffarabad, September 10, 2001.
2. Author&#8217;s interviews with recruits at the training camps, 1998-2006.
3. Author's interview with Ghulam Rasool Shah, Islamabad, March 9, 2002.
4. Author's interview with Mir Tahir Masood, Islamabad, August 25, 2001
5. Author&#8217;s interview with Zafar Iqbal, November 27, 1997.
6. Author&#8217;s interviews with recruits at the training camps, 1998-2006.
7. Press Conference by Markaz Dawat wa&#8217;l-Irshad leaders in Lahore on December 24, 2001 &#8211; Attended by the author.
5. An audiotape allegedly recorded by Osama bin Laden appeared to claim responsibility for the attack, though not explicitly. The authenticity of the message has not been confirmed (al-Jazeera, January 25).
6. In January 2010 the chairman of the board of directors of the Yemen News Agency repeated the accusation that Iran is supporting the Houthis and stated that al-Qaeda cannot pose the same level of threat as the northern rebellion. Saba Net - Yemen news agency .
7. A translation of this work in full may be found at Minbar of Tawheed and Jihad .
8. See Jim Lacey (ed.), The Canons of Jihad, Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, 2008, pp.147-161.


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## EjazR

^^^ The thread is going offtopic. If you want to discuss solutions for Kashmir thats a different thread. But don't forget to take into account ALL sections of J&K including the pro-Indian section.

The thread was to show some details about who the J&K police are and what they do. Many Pakistanis think that even the J&K police is a "Hindu" force killing "freedom fighters" when the reality is that its local Kashmiris be they Hindu or Muslim or Sikh fighting mainly Pakistani nationals causing violence and mayhem here.

Of course they are not perfect, but when militants come knocking (rather crashing on locals doors), the J&K police is the first place where the locals will go and tip them off about infiltrators to get rid of them.

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## RPK

The Hindu : News / National : 'Stone-pelting turns into a &lsquo;lucrative business&rsquo; in J&K'

*'Stone-pelting turns into a &#8216;lucrative business&#8217; in J&K'*


Police on Friday arrested a person, alleged to be the kingpin of stone-pelters in the Kashmir valley, and claimed to have found documents which suggest this has fast turned into a lucrative &#8216;business&#8217; for unemployed youths offering their &#8216;service&#8217; for a price.

Police had launched a massive drive against stone-pelters in the valley and their investigations led to a house in Bemina colony on the outskirts of the city after which they found several documents suggesting his involvement in stone-pelting business for nearly last two years, official sources said here on Friday.

The arrested person identified as Irshad Ahmed was interrogated by the police and they recovered dozens of SIM cards, threat letters, fake press identity cards, cheque books and well maintained account registers which state the expenditure for stone-pelting incidents in various parts of the valley.

The first register contained 294 names along with their photographs and mentions the details of money paid to them for their stone-pelting activities in the last one year in the downtown city, the sources said.

Police claimed to have recovered sketches of roads leading from Ganderbal to Leh, a route used by the Army personnel to maintain essential supplies to Ladakh division, they said.

Business worth lakhs of rupees is estimated to be generated through this activity.

Separatist groups, especially those owing allegiance to Pakistan-terror outfit Hizbul Mujahideen and Lashker-e-Taiba, are alleged to have formed several groups comprising a minimum of dozen people, sources in the interrogation team said.

These groups are paid an amount ranging between Rs five to eight lakh, they said, adding a part of this money is handed over to another group known as &#8220;initiators&#8221; who pick up stones and start pelting on police and paramilitary forces.

The groups, which are alleged to have been receiving funds from a political party as well, have stationed their people in various localities and other districts of the valley, the sources said. This could be the reason for stone-pelting incidents occurring in a synchronised manner throughout the valley during agitations and protests, they said.

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## baker

> ISLAMABAD: A day after Islamabad said it was seeking a clarification from New Delhi on the agenda for the proposed Foreign Secretary-level talks, the Jamat-ud-Dawah, front organisation of the Lashkar-e-Taiba, the group blamed for the Mumbai attacks, held a public meeting here vowing to seize Kashmir by force and threatening rivers of blood in India.
> 
> In Lahore too, the JuD organised a public rally, led by Hafiz Saeed, alleged by India to have masterminded the Mumbai attacks.
> 
> The rally went from the JuD headquarters in Chauburji to the University Grounds, where Mr. Saeed led the participants in Friday prayers.
> 
> It proceeded to the famous Masjid-e-Shohada on Mall road, where the second tier leadership of the group made anti-India speeches. However, Mr. Saeed did not speak at the public meeting.
> 
> The meetings were held alongside other country-wide events to mark Kashmir Solidarity Day, annually observed in Pakistan on February 5. The JuD rally in the capital was held at Aabpara chowk in the heart of the city, a short walk from the barricaded headquarters of the Inter-Services Intelligence.
> 
> The JuD is on the United Nations terror list as a front of the LeT, but Pakistan has not banned the group. This is the first time after the Mumbai attacks that the group has come out openly, dropping last years cover of Falah-i-Insaniyat.
> 
> The government, which took some steps against the JuD and placed Hafiz Saeed under house arrest days after the Mumbai attacks, seems to have given it a long rope now.
> 
> Fridays meetings in Islamabad and Lahore followed the one on Wednesday in Muzaffarabad, capital of Pakistan Occupied Kashmir.
> 
> In the capital, it was not a crowded meeting, the cold and steady drizzle dampening enthusiasm for the event, but the speakers more than made up for this. Banners and posters with the JuD ensignia were found everywhere.
> 
> Whenever our jihad in Kashmir nears success, India becomes ready for talks, Abdur Rehman Makki, deputy to JuD leader Hafiz Saeed, told his audience, mostly traders from the local market, students from madrasas and JuD activists bussed in from Rawalpindi.
> 
> But what is this dialogue all about? [Former President Pervez]Musharraf tried dialogue for eight years. What did he get? What did Pakistan get? A ban on Lashkar-e-Toiba, while Shiv Sena is allowed to go free, he said.
> 
> India and the U.S. were trying to make the Kashmir cause a part of the war on terror, he said, but if India did not pull out its troops from there, each one of the 17 crore Pakistanis would struggle step-for-step with the Kashmiris in the massacre of Indian soldiers until the last soldier is dead.
> 
> The JuD, he said, is a reality of Pakistan, and anyone who tries to finish it will not succeed.
> 
> Mr. Makki also railed against the United Nations and the U.S. Ban us all you like. It is meaningless. It is no more one Hafiz Saeed, every citizen of Pakistan will fight for Kashmir until the last drop of his blood, he said.
> 
> He warned that jihadis were ready to fill the Ravi river with blood on the water to avenge what he alleged was Indias denial of river waters to Pakistan.
> 
> Kashmir had become a cold issue. But by denying Pakistan water, India has ensured that every farmer in Punjab is lining up with his tractor and plough, ready to overrun India.
> 
> At one time, jihadis were interested only in the liberation of Kashmir, but the water issue had ensured that Delhi, Pune and Kanpur were all fair targets, he said.
> 
> A string of other JuD speakers praised jihad, and urged Pakistanis to take to it in Kashmir, Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine. The Pakistan Peoples Party came in for its share of criticism for straying from Zulfikar Ali Bhuttos promise of a 100-year war for Kashmir.
> 
> The Pakistan Muslim League (N) spokesman Siddique-ul-Farooq, and Sardar Khalid Ibrahim of the Azad Jammu and Kashmir Pakistan Peoples Party also spoke. at the meeting.



source : The Hindu : Front Page : JuD vows to take Kashmir by force


this is really a bad news considering the situation that most likely india and pak will resume tha talks by this month


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## ebungo

And how they are going to do it ???


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## nollvllad

PLEASE WATCH AND GIVE ME YOUR FEED BACK ...


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## PAFAce

indianrabbit said:


> throwing stones for no reasons


What the heck? For no reason? What else are you supposed to do when the other side has INSAS and tear-gas canisters and whatnot? What are you supposed to do when they come lathi-charging at you for no apparent reason but to break-up your demonstrations and rallies?

Throwing stones is a last resort for human beings. It is common in places like Kashmir, Palestine, etc. where the populace is left with nothing to answer the brutality and might of the forces against them. It's unbelievable that the media on your side is now trying to portray this as a "lucrative business" when it's clearly a display of desperation, anger and hate by Kashmiri youth. Have you ever been in a riot? Are they generally predictable? How the heck do you know when one is going to break out and prepare for it in advance? Is stone-throwing something that started recently? Also, how rich do you think the Government of Pakistan is that it's sponsoring stone-throwing and rallies Occupied Kashmir?

Instead of feeling sorry for the teenagers who have to revert to stone-throwing, you guys come up with another convenient theory to turn your eyes away. For one second, consider that the recent rallies and unrest may have something to do with the death of a 14-year-old at the hands of a BSF soldier, and that the stone-throwing began when the BSF came by to forcefully stop the protests and demonstrations. Try to put yourselves in their shoes, and you _might_ just see why they throw stones.

*Edit*
I thought the original article was idiotic, but this last article is definitely a contender for the number one spot. Why would anybody "document" stone-throwing? Why would militant organizations form "teams"? Oh yeah, I forgot, they do that so it's easier for them to get caught. They don't want to leave any mysteries, I guess.


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## PAFAce

EjazR said:


> The thread was to show some details about who the J&K police are and what they do. Many Pakistanis think that even the J&K police is a "Hindu" force killing "freedom fighters" when the reality is that its local Kashmiris be they Hindu or Muslim or Sikh fighting mainly Pakistani nationals causing violence and mayhem here.


The first part of this statement may well be a fact and J&K Police may well Muslims. However, the second part is an opinion, and an ill-informed one at that. Militants don't go killing people indiscriminately, as you are implying, and there are many local militants as well, according to the chief of J&K Police in a news article I read (probably posted by you).



> the J&K police is the first place where the locals will go and tip them off about infiltrators to get rid of them.


Where do they go when the BSF comes "crashing their doors"? I know this isn't the place to ask that question, but the Police is subject to the BSF and Army, so they are _bound_ to fight the militants rather than the occupiers. Hence, there isn't much the Police can do about them. It's not a choice they're given, it's something they _have_ to do. If the Police only has the power to target either separatist militants or criminals (who are probably labeled as Pakistani insurgents), how is it okay to assume they are not aiding the occupiers?


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## BlackSonic

ebungo said:


> And how they are going to do it ???



I am sure they are not using GAndhigiri.


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## Gabbar

Like they been doing for last two decades? Boys will be waiting for them this side.

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## Goodperson

ebungo said:


> And how they are going to do it ???



Strike the innocents and blame it on IA.


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## notsuperstitious

India always betrayed Pakistan: Hafiz Saeed - GEO.tv

LAHORE: Banned Jamat-ud-Dawa chief Hafiz Muhammad Saeed says that India has always betrayed Pakistan in the name of talks. 

Addressing a Kashmir Solidarity Rally here on Friday, he has asked Indian Home Minister Chidambaram to meet him first in Lahore before heading to Islamabad. 

Earlier, he led a rally from Chobrgi to Punjab Assembly to mark the Kashmir Solidarity Day. The participants of the rally were holding placards inscribed with Kashmir slogans. 

&#8220;While the United States failed to stay in Afghanistan then how could India remain in Kashmir,&#8221; he said. 

The JuD chief stated India has always deceived Pakistan in the name of dialogue.

Comment - Non state actors holding open rallies? The old plausible deniability? No more, there'll be price to pay.


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## EjazR

Hi PAFAce,

No matter how noble the intentions of the militants, when they are not under control of state forces or made accountable for their actions they quickly devolve to armed groups causing havoc. Its the same for groups who do it in the name of Islam as well.

As I have mentioned previously, the bulk of local Kashmiri fighters who had a pro-independance secular outlook (It even had Hindu and sikh kashmiri militants) gave up the fight with the end of JKLF's militancy. They gave up violence in 95 and among other reasons, they were targeted by more fanatic groups like Hizb, LeT and HUJI who were pro-pakistan.

Currently as per J&K govt. estimates, 95&#37; of militants are foreigners. 
*http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/41603-95-militants-kashmir-outside-ghulam-nabi-azad.html
*
Infact many former Kashmiri militants who surrendered made up part of the J&K police and the SOG. Some took shelter under a general amnesty and rehab program launched by the Mufit govt. Because of this many militants who were hiding out in the PAkistani side surrendered on the border to return home.

Some stories are here
*24 militants from other side &#8216;return&#8217; home

Kashmiri militants in PaK want to return home
*

*Kashmiri youth languishing in Pak militant camps desperate to return home*

Infact, more muslims are killed in militant attacks (partly because its easier to target the police rather than army or paramilitary forcers). These also include pro-India politicians and govt. officials, anti-militant villagers as well as the regular folks that die when suicide bombing or car bombs are detonated.Moreover, we have the disgruntled locals who tipoff the police and who have been intimidated and coerced into providing shelter and food or to "marry" of their daughters to militants. These civilians are called "spies" and "munafiqs" and fair game to be killed.
*http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...lled-kashmir-militants-kashmiri-official.html*

Another recent report where LeT has "suspended" its operation against security force (Looks like they are not man enough to fight them?) and have taken the task to target the "spies" within i.e. the local civilians
*LeT posters in Kishtwar*

With the advent of foreign militants, mainly Pakistani, but also chechen uzbek and afghan militants, the situation got more and more brutal. This article from 2004 lists a few such cases. 
*Kashmir, Where Beheadings Also Strike Fear: Asia times online*

And if we had any doubts on where the militancy was headed, here is a report in 2001 where Laskar-e-Jabar announced acid attacks on girls and women who didn't wear the "Islamic dress"
*BBC News|South Asia|Kashmir women face acid attacks*

Is this really shocking that the "Kashmiri mujahideen" could be so brutal? The situation on the ground is that as long as the TTP types had an outlet in Kashmir they had nothing to do in Pakistan. Once Musharraf completely blocked their access to Kashmir, you saw the rise of extremists groups attacking GoP and PA itself. That is why I insist on calling them nothing but TTP clones. These militants are different from sepratists in Kashmir who don't take up violence like the Hurriyet group even though they might be some links. The Hurriyet party members consists of locals while foreigners make up the bulk of militants.


Now about the J&K police aiding the "occupiers". I would say that is a slippery slope. As I have mentioned previously, as long as the J&K govt. and GoI provides full freedom to practice and preach Islam, there is no cause for separatism Islamically and hence no Jihad either. This view is endoresed by many ulema including the Grand mufit of J&K and was interestingly also the view of Maududi the founder of JI. (However, JI under Qazi became the foremost to make a mess out of Kashmir once he established his monopoly on it)

The Hizb, LeT e.t.c are foreigners fighting to establish a so called "Islamic state" with sharia rule in Kashmir. So is the TTP in Pakistan and the Afghan Taliban in Afghanistan. And so is the East Turkistan movement in Xinjiang and the IMU in Uzbekistan.

This concept of political Islam itself is highly unIslamic. But that is a different topic. What I wanted to draw your attention to is that if J&K police who consist of locals and fight mainly foreign militants are some how aiding the occupiers then arn't the PA and GoP aiding the "occupiers" in Afghanistan? What about the drone attack and the NATO supplies? The Chinese govt. and any Chinese/Uighurs Muslim officials would be in the same boat.

The Kashmir solution can not and should not be resolved by giving into armed militant groups like LeT, Hizb e.t.c. because that will not only be problematic for India but even worse for Pakistan and surrounding areas as these extremists forces get a fillip.

Regarding BSF or Army officials or even J&K police committing human rights violation, they should be tried and punished if its true. There are even cases where J&K judiciary and GoI have gone to extradite former Army majors from the US to try them in court
*Ex-major faces arrest for kidnap, murder charges* 

Similarly BSF and paramilitary officials do get arrested in some cases. However, I would admit that its not foolproof. And I hope you can understand that although J&K police should aim for a high standard there are bad apples and you will have cases of corruption, use of excessive force in the heat of the moment e.t.c. But to say that BSF or Army officials go scot free is wrong. Infact according to SOPs, Army or BSF or any other paramilitary force can't arrest or search property unless they are doing a join ops with the J&K police.

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## EjazR

*Irked Omar complains to PC *

KashmirTimes NEWS SERVICE
NEW DELHI, Feb 5: Irked by the repeated incidents of unprovoked firing and the killing of innocent youth in the Valley by security personnel particularly CRPF troopers thus creating a fresh spate of public rage against his government, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah today urged the Union Home Ministry to "discipline the Central Reserve Police Force."
According to the sources, the Chief Minister complained that the "indisciplined acts" of CRPF troopers were making it difficult for the government to handle the situation in the Valley which is presently on the boil.
The Chief Minister has registered this latest complaint with the Union Home Minister in the wake of killing of 16-year old Zahid Farooq Shah today reportedly in the unprovoked firing by CRPF troopers in the Valley.
Omar has reportedly told the Union Home Minister that there are vested interests hell bent creating trouble in the Valley yet the killing of innocents in firing by the troopers was turning the situation from bad to worse. Describing this as a major cause of concern, the Chief Minister has urged the Union Home Minister to discipline CRPF troopers and issue directions to them to "exercise restraint" while tackling the protesters.
The sources claimed that Omar is likely to take up these issues with the Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh and Union Home Minister P Chidambaram also during Chief Ministers' conclave scheduled to be held in the union capital this Sunday.
The Chief Ministers' conclave has been convened by the Union Home Minister and would be inaugurated by Prime Minister.
Meanwhile in a statement issued on behalf of the Chief Minister, it was claimed that he directed the Director General of Police to immediately move to Srinagar and personally supervise the police investigation into the killing of Zahid.
The Chief Minister, while expressing deep anguish over the killing of the young boy, said that the incidents of unprovoked, innocent killings will not be tolerated and whosoever is involved in such killings will be brought to book and doled out exemplary punishment so that it becomes a lesson and deterrent for others as well.
He reiterated that the state government was committed to zero tolerance of human rights violations and his government will punish those who violate the human rights. The Chief Minister also asked the entire administration to sensitize all ranks and files in the forces deployed in the state to exercise utmost restraint and not get provoked by the elements who want to disrupt peace and harmony in the state.
He said his government will not allow disruptive elements to create law and order situation in the state but at the same time will not tolerate any kind of human rights violations.
It is notable here that the state government on Thursday also registered a serious protest with the union Home Ministry vis-&#8230;-vis the remarks of Special Director General CRPF N K Tripathi about terror threat in Vaishnodevi.
"In case, they have any such intelligence inputs, they should have shared with us," the state government maintained while registering its protest.


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## Halaku Khan

EjazR said:


> *Irked Omar complains to PC *



Most likely, that was an attack by Pakistani terrorists, in an effort to discredit Indian forces. See *Boy shot dead by security force in Kashmir; CM orders high-level enquiry - dnaindia.com*


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## Trichy

*&#8220;each one of the 17 crore Pakistanis would struggle step-for-step with the Kashmiris in the massacre of Indian soldiers until the last soldier is dead.&#8221;*

Then what about 130 crore Indians Do ha ha ha..... don't say always blah blah blah mr. H. Syed, ur people only believe u that u single handle get the Kashmir from India. we know how important is Kashmir for Pakistan mind it... Just build more and more dams that's it, beware of it...already 4 on process....

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## baba firangi

ebungo said:


> And how they are going to do it ???



Come on dude, whatz wrong with you?.. They told na, They will be using *FORCE*..

I am already scared.. Very scared.. The most powerful man on Earth has threatened to use *FORCE*.. You should all get scared too..


Dunno why people have to discuss each and every such crackpot on a defence forum.. Its just not worth it..

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## hindesi

wipe these swines off the face of this earth, bloody pigs!!


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## sarthak

Were these Jud guys trying to be funny?


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## Naradmuni

> JuD vows to take Kashmir by force



And they say, it is a charity organisation

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## King Julien

JuD should help PA liberate pakistan from ttp

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## haawk

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/2611-plotter-invites-chidambaram-for-composite-dialogue/109758-2.html?from=tn

well here comes the next(third) power center of pakistan......
first :army
second: civilian govt
third:terrorists,(and this time officially-they dont even care about the govt).
fourth:?????????????????



26/11 plotter invites Chidambaram for 'composite dialogue'

MASTERMIND: Hafiz Mohammad Saeed is the key conspirator in the 26/11 Mumbai attacks.



Lahore: Even as Indian and Pakistani foreign secretaries decide on a possible meeting later this month to discuss new Confidence Building Measures (CBMs), 26/11 mastermind and Jammat Ud Dawa (JUD) Chief Hafiz Saeed has invited India's Home Minister P Chidambaram for a 'composite dialogue.'

Speaking at the biggest ever anti-India jehadi rally in Pakistan on the occasion of annual 'Kashmir Solidarity Day,' Saeed said that P Chidambaram should talk to him rather than going to Islamabad.

"I invite Chidambaram to come and meet me first rather than going to Islamabad come here to Lahore. Our destination is nothing less than freedom, freedom has to be given and if India doesn't give Kashmiris the right to freedom then we will adopt the method which was adopted by Afghans to drive away America and its forces," he said.

Other than India, United States too was a target of Saeed's rant.

"The biggest pagan, America which had been supporting Jews and is now supporting India, has been defeated by Mujahideen in Afghanistan. India must understand that if America couldn't stay for long in Afghanistan, then there is no chance that India will remain in Kashmir forever," said Saeed.

Although Saeed did not own the responsibility for the 26/11 attacks in Mumbai, he tried to equate the attacks to the loss suffered by Pakistan during the 1971 war.

"If India can't forget Mumbai attacks, we can't forget East Pakistan (Bangladesh). India's thousand Mumbai like attacks will not be able to equal the loss we faced in East Pakistan."

Saeed stressed that the only solution to problems between India and Pakistan was the "liberation of Jammu & Kashmir, failing which radical groups would resort to the option of jehad."


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## paritosh

and we are trying to resume talks when the accused of 26/11 are openly declaring war on India...they should have been behind bars locked-up...there can be no peace till then...and they these cowards talk of massacring Indian soldiers...they'd $h!t in their pants if we were to go on the offensive..!

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## PlanetWarrior

Ask the kutha to come to New Delhi to hold talks. Thereafter perhaps we can send him to address a rally in Mumbai where the masses will await his arrival


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## Awesome

Indian soldiers serving in Kashmir are a fair kill. Use of force should however only be warranted by Pakistan Army. The use of force would be a valid method of taking Kashmir provided it can work.

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## LCA Tejas

Asim Aquil said:


> Indian soldiers serving in Kashmir are a fair kill. Use of force should however only be warranted by Pakistan Army. The use of force would be a valid method of taking Kashmir provided it can work.



What? Can you be more precise , and Tell what Can pakistan Army do About it?


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## PlanetWarrior

Asim Aquil said:


> Indian soldiers serving in Kashmir are a fair kill. Use of force should however only be warranted by Pakistan Army. The use of force would be a valid method of taking Kashmir provided it can work.



Well if you are suggesting a war between India and Pakistan over the Kashmir issue then offcourse Indian soldiers will be fair kill to the Pakistani army and likewise Pakistani soldiers will be a fair kill to the Indian army. In a way I actually support a war between India and Pakistan should the talks fail. It is about time that the issue of Kashmir is laid to rest. Perhaps a conventional border war and the victorious army could rightfully claim ownership of Kashmir while the defeated army could accept that Kashmir belongs to the victorious nation. Hopefully that would shut the losing side up for once and for all and the two nations could go along with their business without any further antagonism.

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## Goodperson

Asim Aquil said:


> Indian soldiers serving in Kashmir are a fair kill. Use of force should however only be warranted by Pakistan Army. The use of force would be a valid method of taking Kashmir provided it can work.



PA never has nor will ever achieve any thing by these bunch of Thugs, In-fact they have caused more harm.


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## saurabh

Asim Aquil said:


> Indian soldiers serving in Kashmir are a fair kill. Use of force should however only be warranted by Pakistan Army. The use of force would be a valid method of taking Kashmir provided it can work.



This type of thinking just increases the problems.
It is your perspective. Than we can say, from our perspective that Pak occupied Kashmir belongs to us, or elements helping terrorism in India should be killed by surgical strikes or whatnot. You wont like that, would you?

None is practical, or right. We have a issue which cannot be solved by militaries. It has to be solved on a table, talking.

Pakistan already has to devote large chunk of its gdp just to maintain deterrence. If the economies of both countries grow at same rate, it would be very hard for Pk to do this for long time.
Talking is good for India, much better for Pk.

It is long term interest of Pakistan to suppress JuD and likes of it.
Afterall, it is the common man who suffers the most.

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## paritosh

Asim Aquil said:


> Indian soldiers serving in Kashmir are a fair kill. Use of force should however only be warranted by Pakistan Army. The use of force would be a valid method of taking Kashmir provided it can work.



did you just say that we should fight and decide who gets Kashmir??
have you still not accepted the results of two or three similar Pakistani ventures in the past?
and indeed use of force would be preferred by us..as we won't ponder over the "provided it will work" aspect...if you are not happy with the _status quo_...war is a good option indeed.

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## Trichy

paritosh said:


> did you just say that we should fight and decide who gets Kashmir??
> have you still not accepted the results of two or three similar Pakistani ventures in the past?
> and indeed use of force would be preferred by us..as we won't ponder over the "provided it will work" aspect...if you are not happy with the _status quo_...war is a good option indeed.



i too accept this, 6 decade's of talks produce no results so we also try 3 wars & 1 limited war but still no result... a full fledged war only solve this problem,

If as per India or GoI the J&K is a state of India, then why the wait till now to other country that occupied it, its our right to get back the full state under GoI, but no Indian Politicians have this guts to speak like this i know?


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## navtrek

look at those little kids


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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> Indian soldiers serving in Kashmir are a fair kill. Use of force should however only be warranted by Pakistan Army. The use of force would be a valid method of taking Kashmir provided it can work.



So if i hear this right, you are saying that militant (note I am not saying terrorist) attacks on Indian Army in Kashmir is a fair kill since Kashmir is a disputed territory. With that logic will you also agree to the recent spate of bomb attacks, specially the one that killed a bunch of security personnel in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (while defusing the bomb) as a fair kill if planned by Indian establishment since by your definition that part of Kashmir is disputed too..??


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## hindustan

wel i dont think we can get any solution


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## BlackSonic

Narad said:


> And they say, it is a charity organisation



They are collecting charity...... by force.

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## sadiqams

back to the default position in Kashmir as Afganistan settles. The freedom fighters will continue their struggle until the people of Kashmir get their basic human rights under the UN resolutions.

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## PlanetWarrior

sadiqams said:


> back to the default position in Kashmir as Afganistan settles. The freedom fighters will continue their struggle until the people of Kashmir get their basic human rights under the UN resolutions.



Send them in and they will be sent right back at you

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## sadiqams

karan.1970 said:


> So if i hear this right, you are saying that militant (note I am not saying terrorist) attacks on Indian Army in Kashmir is a fair kill since Kashmir is a disputed territory. With that logic will you also agree to the recent spate of bomb attacks, specially the one that killed a bunch of security personnel in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (while defusing the bomb) as a fair kill if planned by Indian establishment since by your definition that part of Kashmir is disputed too..??



The difference is the people of Azad Kashmir have their rights and treated as Independent by Pakistan. They have their own parliament, chief justice, and President even their own Azad Kashmir regiment supported by Pakistans Army against Indian aggression. You give the same rights to your part and we can let the two parts decide their own future in accordance with the wishes of the people of J & K.

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## hindustan

laato ke bhut bato se nahi mante

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## vsdoc

sadiqams said:


> You give the same rights to your part and we can let the two parts decide their own future in accordance with the wishes of the people of J & K.



One basic question strikes me .... J&K obviously means the whole of Jammu and Kashmir.

Including all of Ladakh.

Including all of ***.

Including all of COK.

Including LAKHS of displaced Kashmiri Pandits living all over India.

Do we have reliable Census information acceptable to all three parties of who can vote, who cannot - India, Pakistan, and China - before a free referendum vote is held?

The reason I ask this basic question is that in the intervening past two decades (and I know this from close personal acquaintance as many of my friends are Kashmiri Pandits), the Kashmiri Pandits have been very active on the procreative front .... 

Cheers, Doc


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## PlanetWarrior

sadiqams said:


> The difference is the people of Azad Kashmir have their rights and treated as Independent by Pakistan. They have their own parliament, chief justice, and President even their own Azad Kashmir regiment supported by Pakistans Army against Indian aggression. You give the same rights to your part and we can let the two parts decide their own future in accordance with the wishes of the people of J & K.



Too much of instability and violence in the area. Demographics have changed drastically during the past 60 some odd years when the king acceded Kashmir to India. India has invested in Kashmir and would seek compensation if it does even consider a plebiscite there. Indians generally regard Kashmir as an integral part of India as much as Pakistanis believe that it belongs to India. Any Indian party considering a plebiscite in Kashmir will be outvoted. How do you propose addressing those issues?


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## weaponx

sadiqams said:


> The difference is the people of Azad Kashmir have their rights and treated as Independent by Pakistan. They have their own parliament, chief justice, and President even their own Azad Kashmir regiment supported by Pakistans Army against Indian aggression. You give the same rights to your part and we can let the two parts decide their own future in accordance with the wishes of the people of J & K.



Yeah rite!!!

paper parliament, chief justice, and President....

they r nothing but stooges of ur pakistani establishment(Pak army)

tell me one thing..if u really were interested in kasmiri independence...u would have atleast submitted proposal for independent kashmir in the UN or any international forum....

But u guys didnt..coz u dont want independence for kashmir...u just want to assimilate it in ur country..remember ur slogan..."kasmir banega pakisatan"..

wat about kashmiri pandits in kashmir??

they r more than half a million kashmiri pandits spread across country living in refugee camps....what if they vote for joining with india???

what will u do to them???

murder them..or threaten them to convert...???


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## karan.1970

sadiqams said:


> *The difference is the people of Azad Kashmir have their rights and treated as Independent by Pakistan*. They have their own parliament, chief justice, and President even their own Azad Kashmir regiment supported by Pakistans Army against Indian aggression. You give the same rights to your part and we can let the two parts decide their own future in accordance with the wishes of the people of J & K.



Thats immaterial.. My point was different. Asim had advocated attacks on Indian occupying forces as legitimate since Kashmir (both sides) are a disputed area and Pakistan is well within its rights to make things difficult for India in the Indian part of Kashmir. By that logic India should be well within its right to do so in Pakistan occupied kashmir..

anyway if you really believe that bold part, then hats off to the pakistani propoganda machine..


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## DeathGod

Asim Aquil said:


> Indian soldiers serving in Kashmir are a fair kill. Use of force should however only be warranted by Pakistan Army. The use of force would be a valid method of taking Kashmir provided it can work.



Pakistani soilders serving in Pakistani Kashmir are a fair kill. Use of force should however only be warranted by Indian Army. The use of force would be a valid method in taking Kashmir provided it can work.

I read the above and laugh at myself. People talking about peace want to achieve it by the way of war. War leaves wounds so deep that the bandage of peace aint enough for them and we guys have experienced it through the many wars we have fought. Yet we havent been able to come to terms with the situation. Btw I think the theory of PA attacking Kashmir will always be a flawed one because India will hit Pakistan in Punjab and we all know that Pakistan armerd forces arent well equipped to fight across a broad front given the prominence of IAF and IN. 

Btw Asim , whats your stand on US troops in Afghanistan because if Kashmir isnt India's soverign land then Afghanistan can never be a soveriegn land for Taliban. If I go by your explanation then US troop surge should be a valid one.


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## jaunty

navtrek said:


> look at those little kids



Oh.."gun culture"

No wonder Pakistan is in such a mess now...!!!


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## sarthak

Disgusting. I bet those kids above don't even have a freakin idea what they are protesting about. Give them pokemon cards, cricket bats and beyblades rather. They would prefer them way more than this gun crap. I hope those guns are not real btw


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## krish

baker said:


> source : The Hindu : Front Page : JuD vows to take Kashmir by force
> 
> 
> this is really a bad news considering the situation that most likely india and pak will resume tha talks by this month



waaawww all the best dude keep up the good work take kashmir from india if u can that is....................... and ur most


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## PWFI

PHP:


laato ke bhut bato se nahi mante



It's why mujahideen are fighting against you!


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## Awesome

DeathGod said:


> Pakistani soilders serving in Pak-Occupied Kashmir are a fair kill. Use of force should however only be warranted by Indian Army. The use of force would be a valid method in taking Kashmir provided it can work.


Correct from the Indian point of view.



> I read the above and laugh at myself. People talking about peace want to achieve it by the way of war. War leaves wounds so deep that the bandage of peace aint enough for them and we guys have experienced it through the many wars we have fought. Yet we havent been able to come to terms with the situation. Btw I think the theory of PA attacking Kashmir will always be a flawed one because India will hit Pakistan in Punjab and we all know that Pakistan armerd forces arent well equipped to fight across a broad front given the prominence of IAF and IN.


Punjab isn't a fair target, since its not disputed territory.

You can't take over Punjab - period. Indian soldiers stepping into Punjab will face gun fire from every household. You tried it in 1965 and were chased back. During the Indian sponsored takeover of the Police station outside Lahore by militants, the public were itching to go in and beat the crap out of the militants. 



> Btw Asim , whats your stand on US troops in Afghanistan because if Kashmir isnt India's soverign land then Afghanistan can never be a soveriegn land for Taliban. If I go by your explanation then US troop surge should be a valid one.


It is.

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## mrwarrior006

let me tell one fact


*KASHMIR WILL BE ALWAYS WITH INDIA AND NO BODY CAN DO ANYTHING*


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## dabong1

vsdoc said:


> One basic question strikes me .... J&K obviously means the whole of Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> Including all of Ladakh.
> 
> Including all of ***.
> 
> Including all of COK.



YES.....all kashmris living in either the pakistani or indian part of *Jammu & Kashmir* should be allowed to vote.
I dont know why you think that pakistan only wants elections in the valley?



vsdoc said:


> Including LAKHS of displaced Kashmiri Pandits living all over India.



Off course all the refugees-displaced pandits should be allowed to vote the same way i am sure you agree all the muslim refugees in pakistan should be allowed to vote also in a UN kashmir election.





vsdoc said:


> Do we have reliable Census information acceptable to all three parties of who can vote, who cannot



Let the UN come and conduct the census if you have a problem with pakistani-china info on kashmir.
I dont know how many people live in the chinese part of kashmir but i am pretty certain it wont be many.



vsdoc said:


> - India, Pakistan, and China - before a free referendum vote is held?



As an indian you dont mind the kashmir issue turning into a trilateral issue with china coming into it ,rather then a bilateral issue with only pakistan and india involved?


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## paritosh

Trichy said:


> i too accept this, 6 decade's of talks produce no results so we also try 3 wars & 1 limited war but still no result... a full fledged war only solve this problem,
> 
> If as per India or GoI the J&K is a state of India, then why the wait till now to other country that occupied it, its our right to get back the full state under GoI, but no Indian Politicians have this guts to speak like this i know?


war should be the last option...an option only to be used when all others fail...
now we have nothing to gain by taking all of Kashmir except international wrath and a bad name for ourselves as a democratic country.The _status quo _is more than acceptable to us...if however Pakistan wishes otherwise and acts on that...we will not have to worry about the international opinion and would be more than happy to oblige.
it all depends on what the planners on the other side are thinking who understandably have never had the will to engage us head-on.


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## Imran Khan

trolling hateers on top this thread.i will say no difrence between you and JUD.see merirr.


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## krish

fateh71 said:


> India always betrayed Pakistan: Hafiz Saeed - GEO.tv
> 
> LAHORE: Banned Jamat-ud-Dawa chief Hafiz Muhammad Saeed says that India has always betrayed Pakistan in the name of talks.
> 
> Addressing a Kashmir Solidarity Rally here on Friday, he has asked Indian Home Minister Chidambaram to meet him first in Lahore before heading to Islamabad.
> 
> Earlier, he led a rally from Chobrgi to Punjab Assembly to mark the Kashmir Solidarity Day. The participants of the rally were holding placards inscribed with Kashmir slogans.
> 
> While the United States failed to stay in Afghanistan then how could India remain in Kashmir, he said.
> 
> The JuD chief stated India has always deceived Pakistan in the name of dialogue.
> 
> Comment - Non state actors holding open rallies? The old plausible deniability? No more, there'll be price to pay.



did this dude lost all his marbles or what ............. is he the pakistani prime minister or the president oops those are just puppets......... is he the army chief or what.................. dude we don't negotiate with terrorist we just kill them on sight.................


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## dabong1

Hafiz Muhammad Saeed is a true patriot


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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> Correct from the Indian point of view.
> 
> 
> Punjab isn't a fair target, since its not disputed territory.
> 
> You can't take over Punjab - period. Indian soldiers stepping into Punjab will face gun fire from every household. You tried it in 1965 and were chased back. During the Indian sponsored takeover of the Police station outside Lahore by militants, the public were itching to go in and beat the crap out of the militants.
> 
> 
> It is.





Very fair and non hypocritic response.. AA. very impressed.. hats off...


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## mrwarrior006

KASHMIR BELONGS TO INDIA


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## asq

paritosh said:


> did you just say that we should fight and decide who gets Kashmir??
> have you still not accepted the results of two or three similar Pakistani ventures in the past?
> and indeed use of force would be preferred by us..as we won't ponder over the "provided it will work" aspect...if you are not happy with the _status quo_...war is a good option indeed.



We have talked about the wars in many posts. Paritosh. U still keep on assuming that India won all the wars.

whem would u start to speak the truth. man.

U R still living in dreams.


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## asq

mrwarrior006 said:


> KASHMIR BELONGS TO INDIA



U.N. resolutions say kashmir is a disputed territory.

Stop assuming and start listening to U.N. or quite U.N as u have signed the U.N. charter of a responsible U.N. member and to abide by its rules resolutions and Laws.


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## mrwarrior006

> U.N. resolutions say kashmir is a disputed territory.
> 
> Stop assuming and start listening to U.N. or quite U.N as u have signed the U.N. charter of a responsible U.N. member and to abide by its rules resolutions and Laws.




hence UN should also listen to india

its not my assumptions i am clear in my saying


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## TaimiKhan

hindustan said:


> laato ke bhut bato se nahi mante



Kabhi aaienaa daikh lainaaa, shayid dikh jayee kae konsaa bara bhoot hai. Aur ager naa dikhayee dae, tu samagh lainaa ankhain aur dimagh dono apni jaga per nahien hain.


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## karan.1970

asq said:


> U.N. resolutions say kashmir is a disputed territory.
> 
> Stop assuming and start listening to U.N. or quite U.N as u have signed the U.N. charter of a responsible U.N. member and to abide by its rules resolutions and Laws.



the UN resolution of 1948 is no longer enforcable.. get over it... UN has.. When did you last see a neutral country of importance raise this issue in last few years??


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## paritosh

asq said:


> We have talked about the wars in many posts. Paritosh. U still keep on assuming that India won all the wars.
> 
> whem would u start to speak the truth. man.
> 
> U R still living in dreams.



I know that if a man of average intelligence wants to believe in a certain 'fact'...then he'd find loop-holes in every counter-argument he gets...which is true for both you and me...
I hope that for the sake of practicality and to an extent righteousness you understand that it is not possible for Pakistan to dunk India out of Kashmir which is logistically connected to the Indian mainland.
If there is a "great battle of Kashmir"...I can guarantee that the status quo would be maintained as it is the most mutually beneficial option of all the other options.

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## Contrarian

paritosh said:


> If there is a "great battle of Kashmir"...I can guarantee that the status quo would be maintained as it is the most mutually beneficial option of all the other options.



Status Quo helps India and works against Pakistan. It is in India's interest to maintain the current situation and give up an inch for any resolution.

The more time, India has, the stronger side we become in Kashmir.

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## toxic_pus

asq said:


> U.N. resolutions say kashmir is a disputed territory.
> 
> Stop assuming and start listening to U.N. or quite U.N as u have signed the U.N. charter of a responsible U.N. member and to abide by its rules resolutions and Laws.


Those resolutions are 'recommendatory' not 'obligatory'. What that means is that, you can scream from every roof top with a megaphone, for as long as you like, it will still not be binding on us. We are there, and will continue to do so till eternity, in exercise of our rights granted over to us by a) the Maharaja b) UN.

In fact, presence of Pakistani citizen/national in any part of Kashmir is illegal and against UN writ. May be you should direct your lecture on how to be a 'responsible U.N. member and to abide by its rules resolutions and Laws', to your government.

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## PAFAce

paritosh said:


> I hope that for the sake of practicality and to an extent righteousness you understand that it is not possible for Pakistan to dunk India out of Kashmir which is logistically connected to the Indian mainland.
> If there is a "great battle of Kashmir"...I can guarantee that the status quo would be maintained as it is the most mutually beneficial option of all the other options.


Your argument _might_ stand for Ladakh and Jammu, but you're turning a blind eye to the most populous and rebellious region, the Valley. They will never be satisfied with the status-quo, and hence, you will never be able to achieve true peaceful relations (or righteousness).

If self-determination is not acceptable to India (which it clearly isn't), then at least you must compromise on the Valley so that all parties can be satisfied. Line of Control must move East in the Valley, with about 70&#37; coming into Pakistan and remaining 30% in India. However, this solution will be unnacceptable to you as it will make you seem like you're on the losing side (and any political paty that supports this would never again win a seat in India). Hence, we are in a situation where either India loses territory or it continues to occupy for much longer, and we know which path most of you would prefer.


malaymishra123 said:


> Status Quo helps India and works against Pakistan. It is in India's interest to maintain the current situation and give up an inch for any resolution.
> 
> The more time, India has, the stronger side we become in Kashmir.


Status-quo works against both Pakistan and the majority of Kashmiris in the Valley for whom it has been unacceptable since 1947. It does, you're correct, work for India. But the fact that only India will be satisfied with it alone will ensure that no matter how "strong" India gets there, it will never be able to occupy the people forever. Like I said, you either lose territory now and save face, or you lose territory a hundred years from now and get humiliated.

OR! Here's a crazy idea, let the Kashmiris choose for themselves! Each district gets to choose its destiny, which is a right they've been denied by you thus far.

*Edit*
Sorry, I must say something about the topic of the thread as well. You all know very well that Hafiz Saeed isn't very popular on either side of the border. The only reason his speaches get so much media coverage in your part of the world is because you want to hang on to _some_ hope that you're not _completely_ in the wrong in Kashmir. It's more for self-reassurance than information. 

Similar meetings held by extremist people in India rarely ever get any air-time in Pakistan (and don't you dare argue that similar rallies aren't held in India), because we don't require self-reassurance that we are right in our stand. At least not as long as 14-year old boys get killed while playing Cricket and peaceful rallies are forefully broken up without legitimate reasons in Srinagar.

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## Awesome

I don't support JuD to take the fight to Kashmir, especially if their base of operations are going to be in Pakistan. All armed forces serving Pakistan must be subservient to the Pakistan Army and only they can order such a move. 

Although it is presently not possible, but nothing wrong in preparing and increasing India's cost of holding Kashmir. Then talks can be offered as a middle route, until we both realize and agree that the only solution is to let Kashmir go free, for the Kashmiris. Neither one of us gets it.

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## toxic_pus

PAFAce said:


> OR! Here's a crazy idea, let the Kashmiris choose for themselves! Each district gets to choose its destiny, which is a right they've been denied by you thus far.


How do you suppose that should happen? As per UN resolutions or you have something on your mind. Please do share.


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## toxic_pus

Asim Aquil said:


> Although it is presently not possible, but nothing wrong in preparing and *increasing India's cost of holding Kashmir*. Then talks can be offered as a middle route, until we both realize and agree that the only solution is to let Kashmir go free, for the Kashmiris. Neither one of us gets it.


India is not erstwhile Russia. Neither is Kashmir, Afghanistan. That strategy will not work with India. On the other hand, it may just engulf Pakistan.

Careful what you wish for.


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## PAFAce

toxic_pus said:


> A country which has the genocide of East Pakistan under its belt, shouldn't be riding the high horse for at least ten thousand years.


And a country that has commited genocide after genocide in almost every single one of its states, fron Punjab to Kashmir to Assam, and has consistently violated international moves to resolve issues, shouldn't be reminding anybody of false genocides.

When it comes to high horses, yours is a Mount Everest to our molehill, so please, restrict the crap out-flow only to your behind.

You really love to wrestle in the mud. I am weak, sometimes I can't resist a challenge. I shall try my best from now on. Maybe solitude will give you time to reflect on yourself, but you won't like what you see.

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## Hyde

Seriously tell me one answer please............. Is there any real solution of Kashmir?


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## Skeptic

There has been a strong theory among Pakistani establishment ever since Zia's time for islamisation of political issues and armed forces. The contention was - by relating strong and emotional religious feelings with issues will motivate the armed forces to achieve the unthinkable. The language used in these rallies and Ex-ISI head also reflects the same. We have seen where to it has led to in one section of the country - Just wait a little longer - this Jihad will also turn on its head. 10 years on we might be hearing about a "Sharia state" being established in so called "Azad Kashmir" and with no expansion possible on the Indian side, they will look to expand in the Pakistani occupational areas of northern areas extending westwards.

For a "Charitable organization" dreaming of using force against Indian army and succeeding is highly imaginative and hardly plausible. Even the Pakistani Army will be pleased if they are able to attain sufficient deterrent to Indian armed forces leave alone materializing an aggressive intent. Even in 65 all they cold come p with was "operation Gibraltar" and don't we all know what became of it.

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## karan.1970

Mr X said:


> Seriously tell me one answer please............. Is there any real solution of Kashmir?



4 options really
1. India gives up its part of Kashmir... not gonna happen
2. Pakistan gives up its part of Kashmir.. not gonna happen either
3. LOC = IB ... better chances than the above 2 but still very bleak till the extremism towards Kashmir in the pakistani society doesnt reduce
4. Status quo--all of us are destined to live with this till 1 of the above 3 happens


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## intruder

Mr X said:


> Seriously tell me one answer please............. Is there any real solution of Kashmir?



Yes, we keep our part of kashmir and other part to you.


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## dabong1

Some interesting points up up by the indian members and i would like to answer a few if i could.

*1.Kashmir belongs to india.*

I think we all know that that british india was divided was along the lines of religion with the majority muslim areas making up pakistan and the majority hindu areas making up india.
Going of off this simple logic it is obvious that kashmir should go to pakistan.....after all it is a majority muslim area.If kashmir can not go to pakistan then the people of kashmir should at least have the choice between india,pakistan or independence.

*2.The maharaja gave to kashmir to india.*

The case of hyderabad junagadh come to mind......do i smell double standards?

*3.The UN resolution (international)*

It was you indians that took it to the UN in the first place.


*4.Shimla accord.(bilateral)*

After the invasion of sachin by india the shilma accord is void.

*5.Chinese bit of kashmir.*

So india has no problem with this becoming a trilateral issue?

As the indian members love telling us how much kashmiris love india why are you guys not willing to put it to the test and have a vote on the issue.

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## Skeptic

dabong1 said:


> Some interesting points up up by the indian members and i would like to answer a few if i could.
> 
> *1.Kashmir belongs to india.*
> 
> I think we all know that that british india was divided was along the lines of religion with the majority muslim areas making up pakistan and the majority hindu areas making up india.
> Going of off this simple logic it is obvious that kashmir should go to pakistan.....after all it is a majority muslim area.If kashmir can not go to pakistan then the people of kashmir should at least have the choice between india,pakistan or independence.
> 
> *2.The maharaja gave to kashmir to india.*
> 
> The case of hyderabad junagadh come to mind......do i smell double standards?
> 
> *3.The UN resolution (international)*
> 
> It was you indians that took it to the UN in the first place.
> 
> 
> *4.Shimla accord.(bilateral)*
> 
> After the invasion of sachin by india the shilma accord is void.
> 
> *5.Chinese bit of kashmir.*
> 
> So india has no problem with this becoming a trilateral issue?
> 
> As the indian members love telling us how much kashmiris love india why are you guys not willing to put it to the test and have a vote on the issue.



Kashmir belongs to india because pakistan never had any control at all since independence to any part of Jammu and kashmir our side of the loc.

Maharaja signed the document and you are conveniently forgetting geographic compulsions. If at all junagarh and hyderabad were acceded to pakistan, pakistan would have more to crib about than just 1971.

Un resolution was not binding. additionally it was subject to Pakistan adhering to the terms. We did not find that happening.

Pakistan has gone on several times violating terms in UN resolution, but you view as still valid, while siachin was not even covered in Simla accord, and it is violated..... Now who was mentioning double standards.

We are not interested in adding any new parties, but chinese bit of kashmir is sufficient evidence to pull pakistani of their moral high horses.

All the votings necessary for any Indian state are already happening in Jammu and Kashmir. We don't need any further.

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## hero

dabong1 said:


> Some interesting points up up by the indian members and i would like to answer a few if i could.
> 
> *1.Kashmir belongs to india.*
> 
> I think we all know that that british india was divided was along the lines of religion with the majority muslim areas making up pakistan and the majority hindu areas making up india.
> Going of off this simple logic it is obvious that kashmir should go to pakistan.....after all it is a majority muslim area.If kashmir can not go to pakistan then the people of kashmir should at least have the choice between india,pakistan or independence.
> 
> *2.The maharaja gave to kashmir to india.*
> 
> The case of hyderabad junagadh come to mind......do i smell double standards?
> 
> *3.The UN resolution (international)*
> 
> It was you indians that took it to the UN in the first place.
> 
> 
> *4.Shimla accord.(bilateral)*
> 
> After the invasion of sachin by india the shilma accord is void.
> 
> *5.Chinese bit of kashmir.*
> 
> So india has no problem with this becoming a trilateral issue?
> 
> As the indian members love telling us how much kashmiris love india why are you guys not willing to put it to the test and have a vote on the issue.



Is there any poll/referendum in pakistan occupied kashmir?

Pakistan is a failed state, if it is muslim state why there daily bombing. sectarian voilance. 

Please conduct poll in bolochistan , nw province. See the poll number how many people wants to be in pakistan. Once you conduct poll it will put pressure on india.

regards,
hero


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## FireFighter

Asim Aquil said:


> Indian soldiers serving in Kashmir are a fair kill. Use of force should however only be warranted by Pakistan Army. The use of force would be a valid method of taking Kashmir provided it can work.



Beautifully put it. 



These pesky rats can't even control Kashmir with nearly a million boots on the ground, with so much brute force and terror applied on civilian population for the past 60 years, turned kashmir into the palestine of Asia, they haven't been able to change perceptions or shake the resolve and determination of our Pakistani brethren in Kashmir. 

Yet they still fantasize owning Kashmir one day making it a part of india, with their justification of institutional terror upon the Kashmiris, i hardly doubt they would last a single day in Kashmir with so much venom in their hearts, living in a fool's paradise clearly won't help their cause. Wake up and pull your troops out before it's too late.

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## krish

FireFighter said:


> Beautifully put it.
> 
> 
> 
> These pesky rats can't even control Kashmir with nearly a million boots on the ground, with so much brute force and terror applied on civilian population for the past 60 years, turned kashmir into the palestine of Asia, they haven't been able to change perceptions or shake the resolve and determination of our Pakistani brethren in Kashmir.
> 
> Yet they still fantasize owning Kashmir one day making it a part of india, with their justification of institutional terror upon the Kashmiris, i hardly doubt they would last a single day in Kashmir with so much venom in their hearts, living in a fool's paradise clearly won't help their cause. Wake up and pull your troops out before it's too late.



ok.... here is the deal show me any proof of government of pakistan officers or any government office (except the army ) working in pakistan's NW provinces or wajristan ( correct me if i have spelled it incorrectly)dude there is no control of ur own territory which is not under any dispute, and more over its a lawless region, im pointing out just a few. Pakistan is not a failed state yet, but will become failed state in future if u dont control these warlords and, first clear all the mess that u have in ur hand and then talk about kashmir and where there is a elected government and more over the recent elections clearly gave the verdict that all the indian Muslims in kashmir want to stay with india and "DO NOT WANT PAKISTAN" this was the answer they gave to the separatist by participating in the election and voting for india and more over the violence in kashmir is done by separatist who are cornered and are desperate to do some thing to keep their agenda going else they may fail miserably.................. 
the moral of the story is " ESTABLISH CONTROL OVER UR TERRITORIES ADJOINING BALUCHISTAN AND NW PROVINCES ADJOINING AFGHANISTAN AND THEN TALK ABOUT THE SO CALLED IMAGINARY LAWLESSNESS IN KASHMIR"


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## toxic_pus

PAFAce said:


> And a country that has commited genocide after genocide in almost every single one of its states, fron Punjab to Kashmir to Assam, and has consistently violated international moves to resolve issues, shouldn't be reminding anybody of false genocides.


Just mention East Pakistan and you can expect some bile.

None of what you have mentioned i.e. 'from Punjab to Kashmir to Assam', qualify as state sponsored 'genocide'. Human rights violation, sure. But nowhere close to being a 'genocide', and certainly nothing that even comes remotely within the vicinity of being close to the genocide that PA perpetrated in East Pakistan. 

By the way, it is not me alone, who is calling that 'genocide'. Even International Commission of Jurors (ICJ) called the slaughter of Hindus as genocide. 

Forget riding the high-pony. You shouldn't even be looking at it.

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## toxic_pus

dabong1 said:


> *1.Kashmir belongs to india.*
> 
> I think we all know that that british india was divided was along the lines of religion with the majority muslim areas making up pakistan and the majority hindu areas making up india.
> Going of off this simple logic it is obvious that kashmir should go to pakistan.....after all it is a majority muslim area.If kashmir can not go to pakistan then the people of kashmir should at least have the choice between india,pakistan or independence.


Except that this rule of majority didnt apply to princely states, and Kashmir was a princely state. The rule that applied was that the rulers and rulers alone would decide which way to swing. Plebiscite was Indias self-imposed obligation in accordance with what was followed in Junagadh and Hyderabad. In fact, Kashmir wouldnt have become such an imbroglio if Jinnah hadnt become so impatient, or at least didnt reject Mountbattens suggestion of plebiscite as early as 1st Nov, 1947 (I have to check the date).



> *2.The maharaja gave to kashmir to india.*
> 
> The case of hyderabad junagadh come to mind......do i smell double standards?


The double standard is on your part. Pakistan first rejected plebiscite in any of the princely states of Junagadh, Hyderabad and Kashmir and wanted accession as per Section 6(1) of India Act, 1935. (That section declared that accession will be deemed to have been completed if the ruler had executed the Instrument of Accession). But then when Pakistanis realized that their plans in Kashmir were coming to naught, they immediately changed their position and started asking for plebiscite. That is hypocrisy.

Contrast that to Indias position. India had always maintained that plebiscite would be the key. Accordingly, plebiscite in Junagadh and Hyderabad was held. Unfortunately, in Kashmir, Pakistans presence complicated things, particularly because Pakistan was unwilling to honour its obligation under the UN resolutions. Since plebiscite was contingent upon Pakistans withdrawal of its own citizens and tribesmen (and subsequent demilitarization), which never happened, plebiscite never happened.



> *3.The UN resolution (international)*
> 
> It was you indians that took it to the UN in the first place.


So. The resolutions are under Chapter VI, which merely make them recommendatory.



> *4.Shimla accord.(bilateral)*
> 
> After the invasion of sachin by india the shilma accord is void.


Siachen would be violation of Shimla Accord, if you can prove that Siachen was part of Pakistan. Regardless of that, if your logic is to be followed, then UN resolutions became void, the moment PA broke the cease fire agreement in 1965.



> *5.Chinese bit of kashmir.*
> 
> So india has no problem with this becoming a trilateral issue?


O yes, we have. It is a bilateral issue and no apple of Pakistans eye has any role here. 



> As the indian members love telling us how much kashmiris love india why are you guys not willing to put it to the test and have a vote on the issue.


Sure. Why not. I am assuming that all Pakistanis have been withdrawn from all of P0K.

O wait

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## DeathGod

Asim Aquil said:


> 1.Punjab isn't a fair target, since its not disputed territory.
> 
> 2.You can't take over Punjab - period. Indian soldiers stepping into Punjab will face gun fire from every household. You tried it in 1965 and were chased back.



1. According to whom? Do you seriously think if PA will attack Kashmir , India wont attack Punjab ( claiming provocation ) . See the truth is that one needs to be in shoes of both the parties before really thinking about the solution of a problem which is Kashmir. There is no military solution to it. Period. ( even if PA takes over it once, India will retailiate, it not suddenly then over a number of years till PA is ousted, preety much what PA is doing since independence)

2. I never said taking over punjab , I just said to hit pakistan where it hurts the most esp given the constraints of PAF and PN. There will be no winner in war and any adventurism by PA will lead pakistan only one way and that is down.


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## paritosh

Asim Aquil said:


> Although it is presently not possible, but nothing wrong in preparing and *increasing India's cost of holding Kashmir*. Then talks can be offered as a middle route, until we both realize and agree that the only solution is to let Kashmir go free, for the Kashmiris. Neither one of us gets it.



believe me the cost of holding Kashmir has never been even close to being unbearable...an indicator of this is the flat refusal on our side to even engage in bilateral,trilateral or UN-lateral talks on the matter...
had we been facing problems of escalating daily expenses in Kashmir we'd have accepted if not initiated a way to settle the matter...
Asim...this is not the 90s...the world opinion has had a paradigm shift...the world has grown absolutely intolerable to Islamic violence...and I stress on the word 'Islamic'.
be it Russia ,america or China...they want none of it...
to put it in simpler words...the righteousness of a war is decided by global opinion...and it won't be difficult to sway it in our favor...the world has started seeing Kashmir through our eyes...

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## karan.1970

FireFighter said:


> Beautifully put it.
> 
> 
> 
> These pesky rats can't even control Kashmir with nearly a million boots on the ground, with so much brute force and terror applied on civilian population for the past 60 years, turned kashmir into the palestine of Asia, they haven't been able to change perceptions or shake the resolve and determination of our Pakistani brethren in Kashmir.
> 
> Yet they still fantasize owning Kashmir one day making it a part of india, with their justification of institutional terror upon the Kashmiris, i hardly doubt they would last a single day in Kashmir with so much venom in their hearts, living in a fool's paradise clearly won't help their cause. Wake up and pull your troops out before it's too late.



huh! ? Please compare the security situation in the so called disputed area of Jammu and Kashmir vs Pakistan occupied Kashmir. In this year itself there have been more attacks and deaths in the so called Azaad Kashmir which is supposed to be a heaven on earth as against the opressed and terrorized J&K.

Also pl go and check the development activities & growth in both parts..

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## ameer219

SRINAGAR, India, Feb 7, 2010 (AFP)


India and Pakistan are set to relaunch peace talks but residents of Kashmir, at the heart of decades of hostility between the nuclear-armed neighbours, say they are pessimistic about the outcome.

India has proposed foreign secretary-level dialogue with Pakistan, signalling a major breakthrough in relations frozen since the 2008 attacks in Mumbai in which 166 people died.

New Delhi blamed the assault on Pakistan-based militants.

India and Pakistan have held discussions in the past but without any breakthrough on Kashmir, the disputed Himalayan region which each country holds in part but claims in full.

Kashmir has been the trigger for two of three wars between India and Pakistan.

In Muslim-majority Indian Kashmir, which has been in uproar over allegations about police killings of two teenage boys and where anti-India violence has resurfaced, the mood over the talks is gloomy.

"On the one hand, India is offering talks to Pakistan, and on the other hand it is killing innocent people in Kashmir," said Javed Mir, senior leader of the pro-independence Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front.

A two-decade insurgency by militants who oppose New Delhi's rule in Indian Kashmir has claimed more than 47,000 lives, according to an official count. Human rights groups put the toll at twice as high.

Indian Kashmir had been relatively stable for a number of months, but demonstrations and militant violence that India says is stoked by Pakistan -- a charge denied by Islamabad -- has spiked in recent weeks.

"I don't think anything will emerge from these talks, I'm not hopeful at all," said cab driver Sheikh Shafayat, 40, in Indian Kashmir's summer capital Srinagar.

India proposed the talks, which Pakistan has welcomed, "because violence has staged a comeback in Kashmir," Shafayat said.

On the weekend, thousands of demonstrators shouting "blood for blood" and "we want freedom" protested in Kashmir against the alleged security force killing of a second teenage boy in a week.

Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah vowed strong action over the boy's death and police have said they are investigating.

But his words have failed to calm tensions in the region, which was already agitating over the killing of a 14-year-old boy by a police tear-gas shell the previous weekend.

The demonstrations have evolved in recent days into wider anti-India protests. They are reminiscent of huge street protests in 2008 and an increasing number of youngsters are joining the demonstrations.

Last month, Indian commandos stormed a hotel in Srinagar, killing two militants who were holed up in the building. A civilian and a policeman also died in the siege.

Militant attacks on Indian forces and clashes in the heavily militarised state have continued since.

There have also been increased violations of the ceasefire along the Line of Control, the de facto border dividing the region between India and Pakistan.

"These talks will never move beyond photo sessions. Those who think things will change are living in fool's paradise," says Akber Mantoo, a contractor.

The Indians were talking because of external influences, Mantoo said, referring to US pressure on New Delhi to improve ties with Pakistan so Islamabad can fight the Taliban on its border with Afghanistan rather than worry about its eastern flank with India.

But housewife Mehbooba Yasin said any talks that might halt bloodshed in the restive region would be welcome.

"It will be wonderful if the talks could end the violence," said the mother-of-three.

Moderate separatist leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq said the future of Kashmir must be on the agenda of the talks.

"If the talks revolve around the Kashmir issue, we'll welcome the exercise," Farooq said. "But if Kashmir is ignored and discussions are held over trivial issues, we will be highly disappointed."

Also, warned Farooq, if Indian soldiers continued to "kill people in Kashmir, then violent rebellion will return to the state."

Mood gloomy in Kashmir over India-Pakistan talks


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## Bhushan

imran khan said:


> trolling hateers on top this thread.*i will say no difference between you and JUD.see merirr.*



That means you accept that JuD is indulged in terrorist activities.

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## jagjitnatt

Lets face it. Kashmir is never gonna be settled. At least not with talks. India will just not wake up one day and hand over its territory to Pakistan and Pakistan is in no mood to forget Kashmir.

Kashmir is not as important to Pakistan as it seems to be, but its a good basis or excuse to cause mischief. I am sure, if Kashmir issue gets solved, another issue would crop up from somewhere. Its never gonna end.

And about the killing in Kashmir, its not the army doing it. Its the cross border terrorism responsible for it, which is now turning against Pakistan itself. Can we say Pakistan is killing 100s of people everyday with bomb blasts? No. Its terrorism and Pakistani people need to understand. Sure there are innocents losing life, some killed by terrorists and some mistakenly by the army. But its not gonna end until Pakistan gives up on Kashmir.

My post may sound aggressive to Pakistanis, and I know it is, but sadly its the truth. Kindly think over it.


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## AliFarooq

jagjitnatt said:


> And about the killing in Kashmir, its not the army doing it. Its the cross border terrorism responsible for it, which is now turning against Pakistan itself. Can we say Pakistan is killing 100s of people everyday with bomb blasts? No. Its terrorism and Pakistani people need to understand. Sure there are innocents losing life, some killed by terrorists and some mistakenly by the army. But its not gonna end until Pakistan gives up on Kashmir.



Maybe India should stop recruiting terrorists in police and army, since the killing of two teens was done by police.

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## ameer219

> I am sure, if Kashmir issue gets solved, another issue would crop up from somewhere. Its never gonna end.



Dude,Pakistan is more enthusiastic about solving the Kashmir crisis more than India does.All Pakistan ask for is to make a UN referendum vote for the people of Kashmir,but India just push it off.So who is to be blame for all this that happened?

Get off from your small little world and start realising Kashmir is the core issue for the enmity between India and Pakistan.If you would like some improvement in Pakistan-India Friendship,then solve this crisis. Other that that,there wont be any progress in this relationship


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## Awesome

Bhushan said:


> That means you accept that JuD is indulged in terrorist activities.


The government of Pakistan says so. But while we've seen evidence against LeT, we've not seen evidence linking the two or any direct evidence against JuD.

However we HAVE seen their IT training centers, medicine dispensaries, Abulance services and free of cost roti services. The government of Pakistan may be wrong in its charges against JuD - correct against LeT.

We have no issues with these parties fighting in Kashmir, but we do have issues when they fight outside of Kashmir. We also have issues when these parties fight in Kashmir using Pakistan as its base of operations. 

Fight Indian Army in Kashmir from India, and you have our blessings.

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## jalip

india now on should worried about stones how they gona stop people from getting small stones 

with the stone they will win not with weapons


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## LCA Tejas

jalip said:


> india now on should worried about stones how they gona stop people from getting small stones
> 
> with the stone they will win not with weapons



hahaha, very funny..... You cant always Keep them brain washed buddy, time will come when People of Kashmir will wake up.... Till then Our Police is ready to counter Stones....

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

If only the Kashmir issue is solved , The whole point of Indo-Pak rivalry would vanish . 
Depending upon the current scenario , its very much possible . I think Pakistan should cooperate with India in doing business in Afghanistan , like training the ANA and plus , let all the Indian companies and firms do the development projects in Afghanistan , Plus provide the land route to India to facilitate its presence in Afghanistan both at the corporate and military level , in return move forward over the possible and acceptable settlement of the Kashmir dispute ..!

Theres great room of cooperation btw the two countries in such a scenario . But only if New Delhi greets it with open heart ..!

Remember what Gen Mushraff said *" To settle a dispute you cant have TAKE AND TAKE , it must be GIVE AND TAKE "*. 


I have put forward my view in the light of possible Indian inclusion in the Afghan Matrix and the Possible Pakistani Cooperation . Members are welcomed to put forward their possible solutions and constructive comments . 

Avoid derailing and personal attacks ...!


Thanks

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## Mister X

JuD vows to take Kashmir by force and India vows to take on terriorist by force.

Indian Army will surely fix their appointment with god and they have to pay for the killings of innocents.

Also their hue and cry reflects their desperation. But their commitment is not as firm as Indian Army's commitment to protect Kashmir at all cost.

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## Dark Angel

*"Doodh mango to kheer denge. Kashmir mango to cheer denge."*



*There is no doubt that no Indian will ever give a single inch of land from its motherland and that has been clear last 3 times still arrogance plays a heavy part in your attitute*

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## Fireurimagination

I will just repeat something which i had posted somewhere else on the forum, I think it's more revelant here

(1) Pakistan gives up on terrorism as a state weapon (i.e. Dismantle terror infrastructure and groups, hand over India's most wanted to India, take care of LeT, Jem.......etc)

(2) India agrees to a time bound (say 5-10 years) period to resolve the Kashmir issue which will be acceptable to all parties, even rope in a neutral mediator say Norway for the same

and then probably we can live happily ever after

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## EjazR

By 2007-08, if we are to believe the Musharraf and Singh administrations, we were already very close to a settlement. There were proposals to give extended autonomy and joint oversight in some areas.

Just keep in mind that resolving the Kashmir dispute by territorially realigning it with religious majorities and minorities will not go down with GoI or Indian public. A settlement out of this parameter is welcome and I think the broad contours have already been worked out under composite dialouge


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## Valiant_Soul

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> in return move forward over the possible and acceptable settlement of the Kashmir dispute ..!



And what would be that?


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## Imran Khan

udher tum idher hum is now posible one loc= ib

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

> And what would be that?



well the UN proposal for a plebicit and the right of Kashmiri people to vote for their future as proposed by the UN ..!

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## Valiant_Soul

imran khan said:


> udher tum idher hum is now posible one loc= ib



You have my vote! I think this is the most pragmatic solution...but Pakistan has consistently maintained that they will not accept LoC as border.

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

> *(1) Pakistan gives up on terrorism as a state weapon (i.e. Dismantle terror infrastructure and groups, hand over India's most wanted to India, take care of LeT, Jem.......etc)
> *
> (2) India agrees to a time bound (say 5-10 years) period to resolve the Kashmir issue which will be acceptable to all parties, even rope in a neutral mediator say Norway for the same



I think Pakistan has shown the intent to move forward on these issues . Already LET members are going through trial in courts , many others you mention will also follow . Plus one thin is , Currently Pakistan is already fighting more bloody terrorists on the west , I am pretty much certin that the terror orgs you mention are on the hit list of PA , but the process is gradual and also includes the complexities tied to the Kashmir dispute .


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## Valiant_Soul

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> well the UN proposal for a plebicit and the right of Kashmiri people to vote for their future as proposed by the UN ..!



That does not holds good now. The population demographic have changed and moreover you need to understand that territory belongs to the nation and not to the ethnic population there. If a nation goes by this logic then any state can begin to demand freedom, and you cannot keep the integrity of a nation intact.

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## Valiant_Soul

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> I think Pakistan has shown the intent to move forward on these issues . Already LET members are going through trial in courts , many others you mention will also follow . Plus one thin is , Currently Pakistan is already fighting more bloody terrorists on the east , I am pretty much certin that the terror orgs you mention are on the hit list of PA , but the process is gradual and also includes the complexities tied to the Kashmir dispute .



My friend, Pakistan has shown such hollow intentions many times in the past. Look at what happened in Muzzafarabad...the JuD banned by the UN is holding anti-India really right under the nose of the Punjab assembly. And you expect India to believe the intention of Pakistan? Hafeez Sayed walks free from the court despite India providing enough evidence to Pakistan in connection with 26/11. This game has been going on for too long now.

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## Imran Khan

I still think same .loc make border finish whole matter india or pakistan can't take now 1 metter by force of each other.to hell with this issue its distroy us much much just for nothing.pakistan has to stop freedom fighter (by india terrarsts) and india has to widrow troops stop humen rights voilations make soft borders for poor people of both side give more power to kashmiris.solve it forever and let us live a humen life without load sheding and shortage of gas suger and wheat.our main issue then will be powerty we can fight with it and earn more respect in international comunity.both side should agreement also for not to spread propegenda or media war blame game against each other.its major issue finishing time.

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## Gazzi

The point is one of trust. WE DO NOT TRUST THE INDIANS. Both sides have gone through decades of hatred and both sides have gone in for one adventure to another, whether it be Kargil or Siachen.

The main problem is the Indian media, Hindu fanatics, I don;t wish to go for points, counter points, but even during and after 26/11 attacks, the International media heavily criticised the Indian media, especially the likes of Burkha DUTT, for being a drama queen. People like this, who can pull the attention of the masses, have done nothing but grown seeds of hatred in the next Indian generation towards Pakistan and Muslims.......similarly, our religious elite have done the same towards India and hatred for India runs deep.

There is alot of mistrust there and to allow Military co-operation on the scale you are mentioning in Afghanistan is a big no no, just like India would not be too happy with Pakistan having a military presence in an Indian neighbouring country as this too can be used in a hostile manner if and when required.

Pakistan cannot afford to have an Army in Afghanistan which is more incolined towards India, especially a National Army in their thousands.

My viewpoint is quite clear that the Indian government, unlike previous governments, have not left any room for manouvering. They had gone down this silly line of end terrorism first, not taking into account that that so called terrorism they see is seem as a freedom struggle by others, why, because of Kashmir, the main cause of the problem in the first place. 

India had from 1947 - 1989, 42 years to go ahead with their plebiscite which nehru had agreed and made many pledges to hold including his famous speech in lal Chowk, but when that has not been honoured by India, a violent path has been clearly chosen.

india now needs to deal with this problem hand in hand with Pakistan, so that this matter can be resolved. But this will have to be done on equal terms.


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## Valiant_Soul

A member summed things up very correctly for Pakistan in another thread. I quote:



> What's the point of worrying about India's Muslims when most of our own Muslim population is totally neglected by the state (just look at illiteracy, poverty and unemployment rates) and when there are extremist Muslims blowing up other Muslims in Pakistan, or Shia vs. Sunny battle raging on for decades? Is it our duty to look after the Muslims of the entire world when we can barely do that with Pakistan's own Muslims? We don't have time for this nonsense of building animosity towards India because of their communal infighting. There is a disaster brewing and bubbling on our own stove. Let the Indians massacre each other, it's their country. Look where India has reached and see where Pakistan is stuck. We ourselves have a bad track record of treating minorities. For example...when Pakistan was formed, hundreds of thousands of European Muslims came flocking to Pakistan with passion and idealism. Barely 30 years later these people all moved out because of the racism and paranoia in the halls of leadership and within society itself. Let's for once eat our own sh!t before feeding it to others.



This is what Pakistan essentially need to focus on. I would be blunt but I have to say this: Pakistanis have been deceived by corrupt people in power to believe that India is evil. And I think you can guess who gets the most by projecting India as an enemy and a potent threat. India is not the enemy of Pakistan, this is the most important thing that all Pakistanis must realize. They should press their government to focus on the real enemies and one of them is extremism.


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## Raje amar

Asim Aquil said:


> The government of Pakistan says so. But while we've seen evidence against LeT, we've not seen evidence linking the two or any direct evidence against JuD.
> 
> However we HAVE seen their IT training centers, medicine dispensaries, Abulance services and free of cost roti services. The government of Pakistan may be wrong in its charges against JuD - correct against LeT.
> 
> We have no issues with these parties fighting in Kashmir, but we do have issues when they fight outside of Kashmir. We also have issues when these parties fight in Kashmir using Pakistan as its base of operations.
> 
> Fight Indian Army in Kashmir from India, and you have our blessings.





Thats what India expects from Pakistan........
Please.....Please .......Please dont allow any terrerist activity from Pakistani soil against India. Let alone Kashmir, if you can do this much our relations will improve more than half way.......

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## Gazzi

Valiant_Soul said:


> A member summed things up very correctly for Pakistan in another thread. I quote:
> 
> 
> 
> This is what Pakistan essentially need to focus on. I would be blunt but I have to say this: Pakistanis have been deceived by corrupt people in power to believe that India is evil. And I think you can guess who gets the most by projecting India as an enemy and a potent threat. India is not the enemy of Pakistan, this is the most important thing that all Pakistanis must realize. They should press their government to focus on the real enemies and one of them is extremism.



Valiant Sole........what makes you think that the problem lies on the other side........there seems to be a superiority complex issue here again with India. 

India is our enemy and vis versa, please don't be so silly, we haven;t gone to war many a times for the sake of it.

Don't be so complacent, we believe India is in the wrong and India is deliberatly projecting the ISI, PA and other groups in pakistan in the wrong way for its masses.......the story works both ways, you will have your points and I will have my counterpoints........we can argue this till the cows comes home....so lets cut to the chase, where do we go from here, and how does one resolve this issue


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

> My friend, Pakistan has shown such hollow intentions many times in the past. Look at what happened in Muzzafarabad...the JuD banned by the UN is holding anti-India really right under the nose of the Punjab assembly. And you expect India to believe the intention of Pakistan? Hafeez Sayed walks free from the court despite India providing enough evidence to Pakistan in connection with 26/11. This game has been going on for too long now.



I think many of their activities which were once used to forment terrorism in India are grounded . Many of the Hardcore millitants among their cloumns are now in prison . As for the rally goes , Every body has the freedom to put its views . Again i would point that , Pakistan was reluctant to go after the LET because India was not even ready to come to the dialogue table despite the every effort made by Pakistan . 
Personally we wont go any inch forward by arguing the issue terror camps , Many here believe India is also formenting terror in Balochistan from across Afghanistan (However lets not dig into this).
What i suggest is, India and Pakistan should look into the ways in which they cooperate with each other in a constructive manner . The one such could be Pakistani cooperation in the facilitation of Indian inclusion in the Afghan Matrix in return for the Indian cooperation over the settlement of Kashmir dispute . The scenario is pretty much workable and would lay down the keel to move forward on many other issues including the crack down of Terrorist orgs hostile to India ...


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## Gazzi

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> I think many of their activities which were once used to forment terrorism in India are grounded . Many of the Hardcore millitants among their cloumns are now in prison . As for the rally goes , Every body has the freedom to put its views . Again i would point that , Pakistan was reluctant to go after the LET because India was not even ready to come to the dialogue table despite the every effort made by Pakistan .
> Personally we wont go any inch forward by arguing the issue terror camps , Many here believe India is also formenting terror in Balochistan from across Afghanistan (However lets not dig into this).
> What i suggest is, India and Pakistan should look into the ways in which they cooperate with each other in a constructive manner . The one such could be Pakistani cooperation in the facilitation of Indian inclusion in the Afghan Matrix in return for the Indian cooperation over the settlement of Kashmir dispute . The scenario is pretty much workable and would lay down the keel to move forward on many other issues including the crack down of Terrorist orgs hostile to India ...



I agree with most your post, however, WHY would or should Pakistan support an Indian presence or inclusion int eh Afghan Matrix. It is not as though India shares a border with Afghanistan. This will strategically and tactically be a disaster for Pakistan with a two front threat posed.........Like I have said earlier, India is a country we just do not trust


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## Valiant_Soul

Gazzi said:


> Don't be so complacent, we believe India is in the wrong and India is deliberatly projecting the ISI, PA and other groups in pakistan in the wrong way for its masses.......



And what has India done to Pakistan to be in the wrong? I am sure that you are aware that Pakistan wants to tear away Kashmir from India with the tool of cross-border terrorism that is world renowned now. It has been 15 years of cross-border terrorism. Do you think Indian establishment can fool its people for 15 years? Even when you know the real power lies with chosen government here and not, as in your case, the army? Do you think every party here wants to kill its own people? You need to introspect thoroughly. India is a huge country not a bunch of hooligans.

And about your claim of India being involved in terrorist activities in Pakistan...show the world even a single conclusive proof and point even one country that accepts that India is involved. While you should check how many countries accept Pakistan as sponsoring terrorism. Burying your head in the sand will take you nowhere unless you are willing to see the facts over your misplaced emotions.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

> I agree with most your post, however, WHY would or should Pakistan support an Indian presence or inclusion int eh Afghan Matrix. It is not as though India shares a border with Afghanistan. This will strategically and tactically be a disaster for Pakistan with a two front threat posed.........Like I have said earlier, India is a country we just do not trust


My Friend
I think given the conditions , India is involved in the process of nation building in Afghanistan , Now inorder to do that Pakistan can provide all the logistics to India to carry the goods and material support from the eastren border to the westren border into Afghanistan . In this way india would rely on Pakistani support to do buisness in Afghanistan ,just the way NATO relies on Pakistan for its supplies to Afghanistan . Given such a cooperation , India would not dare to mess with Pakistan . In return India will be compelled to cooperate with Pakistan over the Kashmir dispute in return for the Pakistani cooperation in the peacefull Indian activities in Afghanistan. I dont see a threat by Indian Activities in Afghanistan , once both counteries indulge in such a cooperation . 

Theres a great opportunity for India to expand its trade to the CAR through Pakistan and Afghanistan , and theres a great opportunity for Pakistan to have the Kashmir dispute settled and live in a peacefull environment with India ..

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## Bhushan

Asim Aquil said:


> The government of Pakistan says so. But while we've seen evidence against LeT, *we've not seen evidence linking the two or any direct evidence against JuD*.



*The Consolidated List established and maintained by the 1267 Committee with respect to Al-Qaida, Usama bin Laden,and the Taliban and other individuals, groups, undertakings and entities associated with them*

Last updated on: 25 January 2010

Composition of the List

*The list consists of the four sections specified below:
A. Individuals associated with the Taliban
B. Entities and other groups and undertakings associated with the Taliban
C. Individuals associated with Al-Qaida
D. Entities and other groups and undertakings associated with Al-Qaida*



> QE.L.118.05. Name: LASHKAR-E-TAYYIBA
> A.k.a.: a) Lashkar-e-Toiba b) Lashkar-i-Taiba c) al Mansoorian d) al Mansooreen e) Army of the Pure f) Army of the Righteous g) Army of the Pure and Righteous h) Paasban-e-Kashmir i) Paasban-i-Ahle-Hadith j) Pasban-e-Kashmir k) Pasban-e-Ahle-Hadith l) Paasban-e-Ahle-Hadis m) Pashan-e-ahle Hadis n) Lashkar e Tayyaba o) LET p) *Jamaat-ud-Dawa *q) *JUD* r) Jama,at al-Dawa s) *Jamaat ud-Daawa* t) Jamaat ul-Dawah u) Jamaat-ul-Dawa v) Jama,at-i-Dawat w) Jamaiat-ud-Dawa x) Jama,at-ud-Da,awah y) Jama,at-ud-Da,awa z) Jamaati-ud-Dawa F.k.a.: na Address: na Listed on: 2 May 2005 (amended on 3 Nov. 2005, 10 Dec. 2008) Other information: na



Your government is right.Its a terrorist organization as UN has already declared Jamaat-ud-Dawa a terrorist front group.


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## TaimiKhan

*And what has India done to Pakistan to be in the wrong? I am sure that you are aware that Pakistan wants to tear away Kashmir from India with the tool of cross-border terrorism that is world renowned now.*

What has India done to Pakistan ??? Are you kidding or you are so much naive ???

So what was 71 ?? East Pakistan teared apart by support of Indian State Terrorism. 

And when we pay you back in the same coin, you guys start crying foul. 

Pathetic.


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## Bhushan

*UN declares Jamaat-ud-Dawa a terrorist front group*

The United Nations Security Council has added Pakistan-based terrorist group and four of its leaders to the list of entities and organizations known to support al Qaeda and the Taliban. The declaration came the same day that Pakistani officials said they would act against the Jamaat-ud-Dawa if the United Nations declared it a terrorist group as part of Resolution 1267, which also known as the al Qaeda and Taliban Sanctions Committee.

The Security Council listed Jamaat-ud-Dawa as an alias of the proscribed Lashkar-e-Taiba terror group. India and the United States have said Lashkar-e-Taiba was behind last month's three-day terror siege of Mumbai, India.

Hafiz Saeed has been listed as the leader of the Lashkar-e-Taiba. The UNSC also listed Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi, Haji Mohammad Ashraf, and Mahmoud Mohammad Ahmed Bahaziq as senior members of the Lashkar-e-Taiba.

Lakhvi is listed as the terror group's chief of operations. Ashraf is the group's chief of finance. Bahaziq, a Saudi national who served as the leader of Lashkar-e-Taiba in Saudi Arabia, is a senior financier.

The UNSC also updated two groups already listed under Resolution 1267 as supporting Lashkar-e-Taiba. Al Akhtar Trust has been identified as financing Lashkar-e-Taiba. The UN noted Al Akhtar Trust maintains regional offices in the Pakistani cites of Bahawalpur, Bawalnagar, Gilgit, Islamabad, Mirpur Khas, and Tando-Jan-Mahammad, as well as in Spin Boldak in Afghanistan.

The Al Rashid Trust also provides support to Lashkar-e-Taiba. Al Rashid Trust operates in the Afghan cites of Herat Jalalabad, Kabul, Kandahar, and Mazar Sharif. The group also runs operations in Kosovo and Chechnya.

Jamaat-ud-Dawa has long been known to be a front for the Lashkar-e-Taiba. Saeed renamed the Lashkar-e-Taiba to Jamaat-ud-Dawa in 2002 after Lashkar was banned by the Pakistani government. Pakistan never acted against the Jamaat-ud-Dawa. Instead, Saeed and his leaders rebranded the group as a Muslim charity to mask the operations of Lashkar-e-Taiba.

The Jamaat-ud-Dawa has established an organization that rivals Lebanese Hezbollah. The group succeeded in providing aid to earthquake-ravaged regions in Kashmir in 2005 while the Pakistani government was slow to act. Lashkar is active in fundraising across the Middle East and South Asia, and has recruited scores of Westerns to train in its camps. Jamaat-ud-Dawa actively fundraises on the Internet at its website.

Pakistan vows to act

The Indian and US governments led the charge to get Jamaat-ud-Dawa added to UNSC Resolution 1267 list of terror groups. Getting the group added was by no means assured; China blocked India's efforts to do this three times over the past several years.

The UN's action against Jamaat-ud-Dawa requires nations to freeze the group's assets, ban the individual terrorists from traveling, and prevent the supply of weapons, technology, and other aid to the group.

The Pakistani government signaled earlier this week that it would act against Jamaat-ud-Dawa if the UNSC added the group to the terrorist list.

Pakistan's ambassador to UN Abdullah Hussain Haroon signaled Pakistan would take action against the terror group after the UN meeting, including shutting down training camps on Pakistani soil. "After the designation of Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JUD) under (resolution) 1267, the government on receiving communication from the Security Council shall proscribe the JUD and take other consequential actions, as required, including the freezing of assets," Haroon said.

Earlier this week, Pakistani security forces raided Lashkar camps and offices and rounded up two senior members of the terror group thought to be involved in the Mumbai attack. Lakhvi and Zarar Shah were detained over the past several days, along with a handful of Lashkar-e-Taiba fighters.

Shah is a communications expert who set up the network that allowed the Mumbai attackers communicate with Lashkar-e-Taiba commanders in Pakistan, according to Indian intelligence officials. He also serves as a key liaison between the Lashkar-e-Taiba and Pakistan's Inter-Service Intelligence agency.

Pakistan has rounded up senior terrorists and Taliban leaders in the past, only to allow them to go free. Saeed has been placed under house arrest at least two times since 2001, but the restrictions were quietly lifted. Numerous al Qaeda and Taliban leaders have been set free, exchanged for hostages, or escaped under questionable circumstances.

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## jagjitnatt

India and Pakistan should accept the current boundaries and have their part of Kashmir under control administrated by their govt. I don't see why this is not the simplest solution. Kashmir was never an issue. Its only people are trying make issues out of it. 

India does not want the complete Kashmir. All Indians agree on this point except some maniacs.

Pakistan should also give up its dream of owning complete Kashmir. 

All will be peace.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

> India and Pakistan should accept the current boundaries



Such a soln is not acceptable in return for what is suggested ..! The Kashmiri should have the right to decide their future acc to UN ..!


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## Valiant_Soul

taimikhan said:


> So what was 71 ?? East Pakistan teared apart by support of *Indian State Terrorism*.



The conclusions you are capable of drawing are astonishing. I do not want to deviate off-topic so for you here is a good source to know the history of 1971 war: *The 1971 War*

Or read from more reliable source: *1971 War Background*

Help yourself.


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## TaimiKhan

Valiant_Soul said:


> The conclusions you are capable of drawing are astonishing. I do not want to deviate off-topic so for you here is a good source to know the history of 1971 war: *The 1971 War*
> 
> Or read from more reliable source: *1971 War Background*
> 
> Help yourself.



Buddy, i don't need the one sided biased sources, i know more then you having learned from these sources. 

There is no denying of Indian involvement for the 71 fiasco. 

Your own Indian guys have admitted Indian role in 71. 

If you wish to deny the Indian hand in 71, then we also deny any Pakistani hand in what is going on in the Indian Occupied Kashmir. 

So try to help you own self in learning the history, rather then telling me.

wikipedia is your source ????

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## Valiant_Soul

taimikhan said:


> There is no denying of Indian involvement for the 71 fiasco.



So how many countries recognize "this" role of India in 1971? Equally, look for how many countries recognize terrorism emanating from Pakistan.



> wikipedia is your source ????



No Wikipedia is for you and what is wrong with it? Is it owned by India or Indian to be biased?


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## jagjitnatt

taimikhan said:


> wikipedia is your source ????



ok. so wiki is not a source acc to you. don't tell me wiki is indian.then tell me what is a source. is it zaid hamid? or some pak general? tell me what is a source.

admit it. you are not a bhram gyani and every country other than Pak cannot be wrong.


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## Gazzi

Valiant_Soul said:


> And what has India done to Pakistan to be in the wrong? I am sure that you are aware that Pakistan wants to tear away Kashmir from India with the tool of cross-border terrorism that is world renowned now. It has been 15 years of cross-border terrorism. Do you think Indian establishment can fool its people for 15 years? Even when you know the real power lies with chosen government here and not, as in your case, the army? Do you think every party here wants to kill its own people? You need to introspect thoroughly. India is a huge country not a bunch of hooligans.
> 
> And about your claim of India being involved in terrorist activities in Pakistan...show the world even a single conclusive proof and point even one country that accepts that India is involved. While you should check how many countries accept Pakistan as sponsoring terrorism. Burying your head in the sand will take you nowhere unless you are willing to see the facts over your misplaced emotions.



You asked how is India in the wrong....then went to say how Pakistan believes India is sponsoring terrorism in Pakistan........make your mind up.

Pakistan believes India is sponsoring terrorism in Pakistan, unlike India who tends to hold trial in the media, GoP did what diplomats do and they confronted with evidence which MMS agreed to diccuss the Balochistan issue in front of the world.

India is a country which has many Hindu Nationalists and fanatics. These types of groups like the BNP or France, Austria were very quickly sidelined, In Austria, the EU and the US refused to recognise the Nationalists and hence Government collapsed. What happens in India, they got voted into power. That just goes to show the mindset of Fanatical Indians. On the other hand Sir, please don;t get me to bring out Indian historical facts which have occured in your so called proud democracy, like gujarat, ayodhya, christian genocide etc etc etc.

Pakistan has an elected Government, and currently going through turbulent times, prove to me that the army is control of Pakistan or running Pakistan. This is a typical pathetic Indian rant on no merit. PA gives its views and concerns and that is the dealings they have in Pakistan, and rightfully so.

PA if fully in control of its armed forces, unlike Inida, where Generals are accused of land fraud, and a SERVING military officer is involved in bombings whereby trying to blame Muslims, this is just one case where this man has been caught. How many more are there where Indian soldiers have been involved and got away with it by blaming Muslims in Indias past. We all know of the scandal where Indian soldiers killed innocent kashmiris during the Kashmir freedom struggle to gain promotions. How far does this treachery go???????????

At least the terrorists that do get involved and either arrested or killed in Pakistan and elsewhere are retired from the PA and no longer part of the establishment.

Quite astonishing, how a group of "terrorists" travelled 500 miles from Karachi to Mumbai, in a merchant ship which travels at a maximum speed of 8 kph, avoid Indian navy and scanners, use dingies to enter Indian shore, attacked Mumbai and kill Mr Karkare, the man investigating Col Prohit himself along with Karkare's henchmen. Hmmm very mysterious.

So your little evidence gathering is nothing more then pathetic.

India needs to come down from this superiorty complex and Pakistan needs to start highlighting Indian State sponsored terrorism in Pakistan openly in the media rather then trying to be diplomatic with a country like India who is savage in its manner.


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## TaimiKhan

wikipedia, is an open source, which can be edited by anyone. 

And one sided stories are full in the wikipedia. 


Valiant_Soul & jagjitnatt, sorry to be saying but very pathetic sarcasm from both of you.


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## Gazzi

jagjitnatt said:


> ok. so wiki is not a source acc to you. don't tell me wiki is indian.then tell me what is a source. is it zaid hamid? or some pak general? tell me what is a source.
> 
> admit it. you are not a bhram gyani and every country other than Pak cannot be wrong.



I think your getting yorself confused with yourself.

India has a superiorty complex issue whereby it assumes everything it says about its neighbour are correct AND Pakistan should ACCEPT it. 

If you cannot have an adult conversation and discuss matters whereby respecting other persons views then You Sir are in the wrong place


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## Imran Khan

wikipedia any tom herry dick can go write there even my 6 years old brother.

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## Gazzi

taimikhan said:


> wikipedia, is an open source, which can be edited by anyone.
> 
> And one sided stories are full in the wikipedia.
> 
> 
> Valiant_Soul & jagjitnatt, sorry to be saying but very pathetic sarcasm from both of you.



Taimikhan, its not sarcasm, its stupidity. India can do no wrong. They do not do State sponsored terrorism at all. They are pure and the world is unclean as India is ALWAYS RIGHT.

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## Valiant_Soul

taimikhan said:


> wikipedia, is an open source, which can be edited by anyone.
> 
> And one sided stories are full in the wikipedia.
> 
> 
> Valiant_Soul & jagjitnatt, sorry to be saying but very pathetic sarcasm from both of you.



How about this source then, can this also be edited?

BBC NEWS | India Pakistan | Timeline

Read also from this source:

http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/04/pakistan-india-and-1971/


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## Valiant_Soul

jagjitnatt said:


> no. how can this be a source? this can be hacked.
> There's only one source. zaid hamid. he know everything. he even know how to make omelette.



I am astonished at the fact that they are unable to see that by tying Kashmir with India-Pakistan relations they are treading an inevitable dangerous road. They are simply unable to figure what is more important for them. But then so be it, perhaps Kashmir to them is more important than Pakistan itself.

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## karan.1970

imran khan said:


> I still think same .loc make border finish whole matter india or pakistan can't take now 1 metter by force of each other.to hell with this issue its distroy us much much just for nothing.pakistan has to stop freedom fighter (by india terrarsts) and india has to widrow troops stop humen rights voilations make soft borders for poor people of both side give more power to kashmiris.solve it forever and let us live a humen life without load sheding and shortage of gas suger and wheat.our main issue then will be powerty we can fight with it and earn more respect in international comunity.both side should agreement also for not to spread propegenda or media war blame game against each other.its major issue finishing time.



wah wah.. What sentiments. 100% agree. Make Imran Bhai the President/PM of Pakistan and me the PM of India for i week. We will solve this within that week.

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## karan.1970

Gazzi said:


> I agree with most your post, however, WHY would or should Pakistan support an Indian presence or inclusion int eh Afghan Matrix. It is not as though India shares a border with Afghanistan. This will strategically and tactically be a disaster for Pakistan with a two front threat posed.........Like I have said earlier, India is a country we just do not trust



SO do you mean that a country can only have a good relationship with countries it share a border with?? Thats so wierd.. You need to come out of the mindset of treating Afghanistan as a country which needs to be dominated by someone. It is an independent country that can handle its own decisions and relationships. Why should it need to take approval from India or Pakistan for that..?


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## Gazzi

karan.1970 said:


> SO do you mean that a country can only have a good relationship with countries it share a border with?? Thats so wierd.. You need to come out of the mindset of treating Afghanistan as a country which needs to be dominated by someone. It is an independent country that can handle its own decisions and relationships. Why should it need to take approval from India or Pakistan for that..?



.....I said, why should Pakistan support Indian presence, support, let me repeat SUPPORT...once again SUPPORT....its like drawing blood from stone with you.

It is not in Pakistan's interest, but obviously whoever is in power in Afghanistan at the time, whther Karzai today or Taliban tomorrow, they will decide.

Pakistan will not be comfortable with this and will try and avoid this by different options of talking with its neighbour.


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## karan.1970

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Such a soln is not acceptable in return for what is suggested ..! The Kashmiri should have the right to decide their future acc to UN ..!



You can no longer define/identify Kashmiris as per the definition of 1947. So the issue of referundum is a moot point..

On top of that redefining boundaries in 21st century is no longer a practical possibility. The only way India will agree to this is if it has been beaten down to ground militarily and its survival is at question. Else it will be a political and physical suicide for any leader to allow that to happen. Understand that solving issues with Pakistan at the cost of giving up Kashmir is simply not worth it for India. And annexing Kashmir forcably either militarily or thru proxy war is too rocky a road for any country to travel. The country trying to do this will have to go thru too much of a retaliatory loss before it can defeat India (if at all) to a state where it gives up Kashmir.

So any hope of solving Kashmir has to begin with Pakistan climbing down from its stand of trying to get the whole of Kashmir.

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## karan.1970

Gazzi said:


> Do you actually go out to be stupid or does it just come naturally with you.....I said, why should Pakistan support Indian presence, support, let me repeat SUPPORT...once again SUPPORT....its like drawing blood from stone with you.
> 
> It is not in Pakistan's interest, but obviously whoever is in power in Afghanistan at the time, whther Karzai today or Taliban tomorrow, they will decide.
> 
> Pakistan will not be comfortable with this and will try and avoid this by different options of talking with its neighbour.



No need to get personal Mr Gazzi.. Try and keep the discussion at a civilized level unless that's too difficult a concept for you to understand..

Please read the post carefully. The intent is to say that how does sharing a border defines whether a country should have a role in the development of another country.


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## FireFighter

paritosh said:


> believe me the cost of holding Kashmir has never been even close to being unbearable...an indicator of this is the flat refusal on our side to even engage in bilateral,trilateral or UN-lateral talks on the matter...*
> had we been facing problems of escalating daily expenses in Kashmir we'd have accepted if not initiated a way to settle the matter...
> Asim...this is not the 90s...the world opinion has had a paradigm shift...the world has grown absolutely intolerable to Islamic violence...and I stress on the word 'Islamic'.
> be it Russia ,america or China...they want none of it...
> to put it in simpler words...the righteousness of a war is decided by global opinion...and it won't be difficult to sway it in our favor...the world has started seeing Kashmir through our eyes...*


World opinion is fickle when it comes to the issue of Kashmir to Pakistan. We never bowed down to world opinion in regards to Kashmir. 

Now that Pakistan is a Nuclear state since then we never allowed our policy to be dictated on the Kashmir front. 


World opinions are not constant but are a changing phenomenon. Once America pulls out of ****** theatre, that would signal the end of WOT, and therefore policy changes would be demanded in the new decade era considering the shifts in balance of powers. 


Speaking of Paradigm shifts, have you ever thought what would happen once China becomes the world's next Superpower? 

And how China would pull the strings on world opinions on regional/world/eco/political issues that it favours? Ever questioned what that would mean for India? 

That day is not very far, 2020 would mark a new beginning, whilst New Delhi is in sleep, there would be a major geo-political change in Kashmir. 

Don't you wonder why your think tanks the likes of Bharat Verma are literally panicking at the American withdrawal from ****** theatre? 


You will no longer have the western backing, so better pull out your forces before the world will make you pay for your misdeeds in Kashmir. 





karan.1970 said:


> huh! ? Please compare the security situation in the so called disputed area of Jammu and Kashmir vs Pakistan occupied Kashmir. In this year itself there have been more attacks and deaths in the so called Azaad Kashmir which is supposed to be a heaven on earth as against the opressed and terrorized J&K.
> 
> Also pl go and check the development activities & growth in both parts..


Are you kidding me buddy? 


We have no where near the amount of your soldiers in Azad Kashmir. Things are 100&#37; better in Azad compared to Indian Occupied Kashmir which is literally like the Gaza strip, road blockades, curfews, random police searches, killings and political assissnations, etc. are the norm of day. 

If you want to be honest then pick up any neutral unbiased source and compare Azad with Occupied and you'll find that there's a world of a difference.


----------



## Gazzi

karan.1970 said:


> No need to get personal Mr Gazzi.. Try and keep the discussion at a civilized level unless that's too difficult a concept for you to understand..
> 
> Please read the post carefully. The intent is to say that how does sharing a border defines whether a country should have a role in the development of another country.



I am having problems with people like yourself who just don't seemto read the posts and jump into the reply box and click submit reply like yourself.....anyways.

It doesn't but when the country which happens to be your biggest enemy wants to step in to the other side of you it doesn;t go down so well....see how that works........hence why Pakistan will not be supporting such a move or taking it lightly with the Afghan powers


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## jalip

FireFighter said:


> World opinion is fickle when it comes to the issue of Kashmir to Pakistan. We never bowed down to world opinion in regards to Kashmir.
> 
> Now that Pakistan is a Nuclear state since then we never allowed our policy to be dictated on the Kashmir front.
> 
> 
> World opinions are not constant but are a changing phenomenon. Once America pulls out of ****** theatre, that would signal the end of WOT, and therefore policy changes would be demanded in the new decade era considering the shifts in balance of powers.
> 
> 
> Speaking of Paradigm shifts, have you ever thought what would happen once China becomes the world's next Superpower?
> 
> And how China would pull the strings on world opinions on regional/world/eco/political issues that it favours? Ever questioned what that would mean for India?
> 
> That day is not very far, 2020 would mark a new beginning, whilst New Delhi is in sleep, there would be a major geo-political change in Kashmir.
> 
> Don't you wonder why your think tanks the likes of Bharat Verma are literally panicking at the American withdrawal from ****** theatre?
> 
> 
> You will no longer have the western backing, so better pull out your forces before the world will make you pay for your misdeeds in Kashmir.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you kidding me buddy?
> 
> 
> We have no where near the amount of your soldiers in Azad Kashmir. Things are 100% better in Azad compared to Indian Occupied Kashmir which is literally like the Gaza strip, road blockades, curfews, random police searches, killings and political assissnations, etc. are the norm of day.
> 
> If you want to be honest then pick up any neutral unbiased source and compare Azad with Occupied and you'll find that there's a world of a difference.



oh bahi Azad kashmiri most of them are far richer then rest of pakistan they have house u naver find any where else in pakistan more then 50% of them have relative out side pakistan specially in Uk 
for you information Pound are traded more then rupee in kashmir
they have school and hospitals in all towns far batter then pakistan 
i will not compare it with IOK 
let have vote in pakistani side of kashmir and indian side of kashmir if pakistan side wants to go towards india they are most well come to go will india do the same 
India A shame democracy


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## karan.1970

Gazzi said:


> I am having problems with people like yourself who just don't seemto read the posts and jump into the reply box and click submit reply like yourself.....anyways.
> 
> It doesn't but when the country which happens to be your biggest enemy wants to step in to the other side of you it doesn;t go down so well....see how that works........hence why Pakistan will not be supporting such a move or taking it lightly with the Afghan powers



If you have a problem with folks like me.. too bad.. Its still your problem and i really dont care... 

Coming back to point.. 

I see what you are saying here.. But then H2O3C4 is trying to say something else.. He is not advocating India being allowed to encircle Pakistan by militarily supporting Afg. If I get it right, he is talking about trade and development which not only reduces tensions but also makes entry barriers for conflicts much higher..


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## Mister X

jalip said:


> oh bahi Azad kashmiri most of them are far richer then rest of pakistan they have house u naver find any where else in pakistan more then 50% of them have relative out side pakistan specially in Uk
> for you information Pound are traded more then rupee in kashmir
> they have school and hospitals in all towns far batter then pakistan
> i will not compare it with IOK
> let have vote in pakistani side of kashmir and indian side of kashmir if pakistan side wants to go towards india they are most well come to go will india do the same
> India A shame democracy



*Propaganda busted*

Stop your propaganda.

Large number of Pakistanis mainly Punjabi Pakistanis have migrated to Azad Kashmir

India have maintained the status of 1947.

Indians from rest of India are not allowed by Govt. of India to settle, buy houses, property or marry in Kashmir.

The Jobs and resources of Kashmir are for Kashmiri people only.

Ever herded of Mirpur.


Mirpuris (people originating from the Mirpur district in Pakistani Kashmir), form about *70% of the British Pakistani population* of about 747,000.

Cultural Dislocation

The reasons for the large proportion of Mirpuris in the UK is historical. In the late 1950s & early 1960s, *the Pakistani Government planned the Mangla Dam, which was to be built in the Mirpur area.* They asked several thousand locals to leave the land. *At that time, the British needed man-power mainly for their textile factories. Many of the Mirpuris moved to Britain and started working in factories, mostly in the so called black country and the area of Bradford, England. In some villages, more than half the village population moved to the UK to settle in the industrial towns. This rural, impoverished district provided cheap, unskilled labour for Britain in the 60s and 70s.

Most immigrants were from subsistence farming communities and had had little or no schooling. They made a huge cultural and geographical leap to settle in the UK. The profound cultural dislocation experienced by the Mirpuris is hard to imagine. Most Mirpuris speak Pothowari, a language related to Punjabi. The prominent clans among them include Rajputs (Janjua), Sudhans, Khokhars, Gakkhars, Awans, Jats, etc.


Proof of my statements

ARE MIRPURI PUNJABI OR KASHMIRI - punjabi net forum discussions

Mirpuri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Muslim Mirpuris in Britain cultural dislocation : Loving Muslims Through Prayer | www.30-days.net

The reason of Azad Kashmir's prosperity in comparison to rest of undeveloped Pakistan are immigrant Punjabi who migrated to Britain as cheap and unskilled labors and are now sending pounds back home.

Their so called prosperity is nothing to do with the work or development by Pakistani govt.*

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## karan.1970

FireFighter said:


> Are you kidding me buddy?
> 
> 
> We have no where near the amount of your soldiers in Azad Kashmir. Things are 100% better in Azad compared to Indian Occupied Kashmir which is literally like the Gaza strip, road blockades, curfews, random police searches, killings and political assissnations, etc. are the norm of day.
> 
> If you want to be honest then pick up any neutral unbiased source and compare Azad with Occupied and you'll find that there's a world of a difference.



So more soldiers in J&K should provide more targets of opportunity.. Dont you think..

Dude, you can call J&K as Gaza strip. I can call NWFP as a terrorist cess pool and Pakistan occupied Kashmir as a backward exploited area.. Crux of the matter is you cant convince me and vice versa. 

On your china theory, you guys similarly celebrated when USSR got split. At that time, USA was your dear friend and people in Pakistan THINK TANKS were similarly jumping with joy on how now USA will pressurize India on Kashmir.. Its been a few decades and now you are having to look for another backer for your claims on Kashmir as your earstwhile dear friend is now one being blamed by your population for being oblivious to Pakistan's interests.. 

Sir, as long as you are dependent on external forces to counter India on Kashmir, you are destined to fail..


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## hembo

taimikhan said:


> *And what has India done to Pakistan to be in the wrong? I am sure that you are aware that Pakistan wants to tear away Kashmir from India with the tool of cross-border terrorism that is world renowned now.*
> 
> What has India done to Pakistan ??? Are you kidding or you are so much naive ???
> 
> So what was 71 ?? East Pakistan teared apart by support of Indian State *Terrorism*.
> 
> And when we pay you back in the same *coin*, you guys start crying foul.
> 
> Pathetic.



Ahem, sorry to have popped in.

Perhaps you're confusing terrorism with military aggression. 71 was a official war between the Military forces of India and Pak (just like 65), which Pakistan happen to loose. However, the instrument of terrorism the poster was referring to was, perhaps, to the non-military goons, who *had* been (mind it I used had, not has) armed and trained covertly by Pakistani Govt agencies and allowed to use Pakistan's soil to wage a so called Jihad against India.

First of all there is no Counter Insurgency Opn (COIN) involved in this case at all. Even the methodology too is definitely not similar to India's 71 methology. I am also more then 100&#37; certain that PA will not wage another offensive like IA did back in 71. May be a Kargil here and there, but definitely not a all out offensive.

You guys can carry on now. Good luck.


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## karan.1970

jalip said:


> India A shame democracy



Atleast it has been a democracy always.. in good health and bad.. We dont run away to alternate methods (or get forced by our generals) at the first sign of problems..

Please have as many votes as you want in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. We just have state and national elections as per our Election commission guidelines and constitution..

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## tiger1313

I think India must take this one seriously. I say this b'coz of the following reasons-
1 Pak would like to divert jehadi energies at this stg to india.
2 Hamid Gul's presence may point towards renewed Pak int push to rejuvinate a dying movement.
3 Hafiz Syed presence - is it an indication to india/ us. Otherwise given the fact that we are thinking of talking would make it an inwise move.
Keeping the above in mind, IA would be well advised to look for any new signs on ground, a new stratagy etc


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## TaimiKhan

hembo said:


> Ahem, sorry to have popped in.
> 
> Perhaps you're confusing terrorism with military aggression. 71 was a official war between the Military forces of India and Pak (just like 65), which Pakistan happen to loose. However, the instrument of terrorism the poster was referring to was, perhaps, to the non-military goons, who *had* been (mind it I used had, not has) armed and trained covertly by Pakistani Govt agencies and allowed to use Pakistan's soil to wage a so called Jihad against India.
> 
> First of all there is no Counter Insurgency Opn (COIN) involved in this case at all. Even the methodology too is definitely not similar to India's 71 methology. I am also more then 100% certain that PA will not wage another offensive like IA did back in 71. May be a Kargil here and there, but definitely not a all out offensive.
> 
> You guys can carry on now. Good luck.



Try to have little bit of more research and study about why it led to the 71 war. It wasn't that the Pakistani leadership woke up in the morning and decided that just for fun lets attack India. There was a reason, factors which led to a war with India. 

Similarly, when non state actors attack inside India and you Indians start war mongering and call for war or surgical strikes. 

Same happened in 71, difference that time the Indian State machinery was behind the terrorism and supported it, which led to the war.

India isn't so innocent, as you guys like to portray it. 

Lets hope the US leaves the region soon, InshAllah we will then take our pending revenge.

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## Imran Khan

karan.1970 said:


> wah wah.. What sentiments. 100% agree. Make Imran Bhai the President/PM of Pakistan and me the PM of India for i week. We will solve this within that week.



so then i have mushy powers? presedent\pm  pablic will say dactator hay hay hay shame shame on imran


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## Always Neutral

Fireurimagination said:


> I will just repeat something which i had posted somewhere else on the forum, I think it's more revelant here
> 
> (1) Pakistan gives up on terrorism as a state weapon (i.e. Dismantle terror infrastructure and groups, hand over India's most wanted to India, take care of LeT, Jem.......etc)
> 
> (2) India agrees to a time bound (say 5-10 years) period to resolve the Kashmir issue which will be acceptable to all parties, even rope in a neutral mediator say Norway for the same
> 
> and then probably we can live happily ever after



And who gets to control the rivers ?

Water is the important issue in the future of Kashmir.

Regards

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## RobbieS

taimikhan said:


> Try to have little bit of more research and study about why it led to the 71 war. It wasn't that the Pakistani leadership woke up in the morning and decided that just for fun lets attack India. There was a reason, factors which led to a war with India.
> 
> Similarly, when non state actors attack inside India and you Indians start war mongering and call for war or surgical strikes.
> 
> Same happened in 71, difference that time the Indian State machinery was behind the terrorism and supported it, which led to the war.
> 
> India isn't so innocent, as you guys like to portray it.
> 
> Lets hope the US leaves the region soon, InshAllah we will then take our pending revenge.



Taimi, the term non-state actors is too easy to use and pretty convenient. Do you think people here are fools that they will believe that no ISI help was involved? A retired ISI general is seen at JuD meetings with terrorist honchos. What does that suggest?Salahuddin and Masood Azhar roam about openly. And terrorism has been a state policy of GoP for years, irrespective of the civilian or military govt. in power.

And don't count on the Americans leaving soon. Thank your country's stars that they are here in the first place. Otherwise Pakistan would have still been ruled by a military junta with Musharraf as its ring leader and the country would have been a pariah. Pakistan was of no use to the US after the cold war. Its was 9/11 that made Pak important for US. Thank your stars for that.


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## footmarks

dabong1 said:


> Hafiz Muhammad Saeed is a true patriot



Dont denigerate the term Patriot. Its like saying - Bal Thakery is a true Patriot.

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## Valiant_Soul

taimikhan said:


> Lets hope the US leaves the region soon, InshAllah we will then take our pending revenge.



Can you elaborate on how exactly you will take your revenge, without self-destructing yourself? Revenge is a lovable word, should be used cautiously.


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## footmarks

dabong1 said:


> Some interesting points up up by the indian members and i would like to answer a few if i could.
> 
> *1.Kashmir belongs to india.*
> 
> I think we all know that that *british india was divided was along the lines of religion with the majority muslim areas making up pakistan and the majority hindu areas making up india.*
> Going of off this simple logic it is obvious that kashmir should go to pakistan.....after all it is a majority muslim area.If kashmir can not go to pakistan then the people of kashmir should at least have the choice between india,pakistan or independence.
> 
> *2.The maharaja gave to kashmir to india.*
> 
> The case of hyderabad junagadh come to mind......do i smell double standards?
> 
> *3.The UN resolution (international)*
> 
> It was you indians that took it to the UN in the first place.
> 
> 
> *4.Shimla accord.(bilateral)*
> 
> After the invasion of sachin by india the shilma accord is void.
> 
> *5.Chinese bit of kashmir.*
> 
> So india has no problem with this becoming a trilateral issue?
> 
> As the indian members love telling us how much kashmiris love india why are you guys not willing to put it to the test and have a vote on the issue.



Thats exactly the problem. British made the mistake and we were desperate for freedom, so we accepted breaking up of India into two parts based on religion. But now, we are free and we wont allow this breaking up under religious lines any more. People belonging to any & every religion are most welcome to live peacefully in India as an Indian. Those who dont want that- are free to move to Pakistan. But - our land will remain our land. Kashmir will be in India, those who dont want to be Indians are free to embrace any country's citizenship. After all people choosing to live in US for example, dont take their land to US with them.


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## hembo

taimikhan said:


> Try to have little bit of more research and study about why it led to the 71 war. It wasn't that the Pakistani leadership woke up in the morning and decided that just for fun lets attack India. There was a reason, factors which led to a war with India.
> 
> Similarly, when non state actors attack inside India and *you Indians* start war mongering and call for war or surgical strikes.
> 
> Same happened in 71, difference that time the Indian State machinery was behind the terrorism and supported it, which led to the war.



Well, since this isn't about the 71 war, I will refrain from dissecting it here. However I only wanted emphasize the fact that 71 situation and Kashmir terrorism isn't the same. If you think or know other wise, lets leave it at that and let us agree to dis-agree on this.

Request once again, not to generalize as *you Indians*. It's solely about me "hembo" and I do not represent the whole India.



> India isn't so innocent, as you guys like to portray it.


Yes, I agree that HUM BHI DUDH KE DHULE HUE NEHI HAIN (Our hand's are also not that clean that most of us would like to believe.

But I like I said in some other thread, Newton's third law prevails: "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction". In this case much larger and opposite reaction.



> Lets hope the US leaves the region soon, InshAllah we will then take our pending revenge.



Will that be a overt operation (direct military combat like 65 & 71) or covert (like ISI opn) or proxy (like L-e-T/ J-e-M)? What's with couple of the moderators threatening revenge/ attack in the last few days?

Peace!!


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## Trichy

Gazzi said:


> I think your getting yorself confused with yourself.
> 
> India has a superiorty complex issue whereby it assumes everything it says about its neighbour are correct AND Pakistan should ACCEPT it.
> 
> If you cannot have an adult conversation and discuss matters whereby respecting other persons views then You Sir are in the wrong place



ya true, we should tell *others* must accept..else

GoI to decide not we are else


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## Spitfighter

Take Kashmir by force? what a joke. When have these fools ever succeeded in their so called 'jihad'? They've been beating their chests and shouting slogans for 2 decades now, what have they achieved? The PA could only watch as we carpet bombed an entire regiment out of existence, and they'll take Kashmir by force?? with what??  

Let them come. We have *700,000* friendly soldiers eagerly waiting their arrival. We have tens of billions in reserve, over a million men in the paramilitary, reserves and active service *each* (~3.5 million) and 1.2 billion people behind them. 

We'll see how far they get, they know where Kashmir is, come get it.

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## Gazzi

Same old crappy Indian banta........Pakistan sponsoring terrorism, Pakistan this and Pakistan that........Why do Indians just not get....we both feel the same about each other. Pakistan feels India sponsoring terrorism. This argument will never end and both sides will come out with their arguments...........point is....

We do we go from here


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## Awesome

Bhushan said:


> *The Consolidated List established and maintained by the 1267 Committee with respect to Al-Qaida, Usama bin Laden,and the Taliban and other individuals, groups, undertakings and entities associated with them*
> 
> Last updated on: 25 January 2010
> 
> Composition of the List
> 
> *The list consists of the four sections specified below:
> A. Individuals associated with the Taliban
> B. Entities and other groups and undertakings associated with the Taliban
> C. Individuals associated with Al-Qaida
> D. Entities and other groups and undertakings associated with Al-Qaida*
> 
> 
> 
> Your government is right.Its a terrorist organization as UN has already declared Jamaat-ud-Dawa a terrorist front group.


I'm not talking about lists, I'm talking about the basis on which those lists were formalized.


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## BlackSonic

navtrek said:


> look at those little kids



This pic proves that more than anti-India this rally is anti-Pakistani.
Now don't ask me how? Samajdar ko ishara hi kafi hai.....

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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> I'm not talking about lists, I'm talking about the basis on which those lists were formalized.



Asim

But the basis would have been discussed to death before formalizing those lists.. Isnt it.. Also if most pakistanis believe that those basis were inaccurate, shouldnt then you work on getting those lists and status of JuD changed instead of simply ignoring them. After all its your democratic govt that validated those lists...


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## Laughing Buddha

Take Kashmir by force... Is this some kind of Joke!!

If India act like what America did in 1970 & 80 with its CIA... all these leader will be wiped out from the face of the earth. But again our politician and babus  are bunch of craps...

I think Hafiz Sayeed and his colleague know this every well... they all are doing this "Its a simple word Collecting Donation which are not accountable " in the name of Kashmir and India. 

So lets ignore these people are not even good for Pakistan " Why can't they say lets take out RAW and its fighter (as per ISI and foreign office) out of Baluchistan and save our home.

They can't earn and bring people's attention.

God bless innocent people of Pakistan and Kashmir


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## rubyjackass

imran khan said:


> I still think same .loc make border finish whole matter india or pakistan can't take now 1 metter by force of each other.to hell with this issue its distroy us much much just for nothing.pakistan has to stop freedom fighter (by india terrarsts) and india has to widrow troops stop humen rights voilations make soft borders for poor people of both side give more power to kashmiris.solve it forever and let us live a humen life without load sheding and shortage of gas suger and wheat.our main issue then will be powerty we can fight with it and earn more respect in international comunity.both side should agreement also for not to spread propegenda or media war blame game against each other.its major issue finishing time.


I am with you Imran Sahab. THIs is the most practical solution. Once we agree that LOC is IB, we can let people do whatever the hell they want to do, conduct business, kiss people across the border what not if we make borders soft. The most convincing argument for this is, as you rightly pointed out, we are not going to be able to change things at all. It did not change when there was a chance to change. It will not change in future as well.

loc=ib is a fair compromise though I can say a lot of Indians may disagree with this, but I think they can be convinced. This is the most opportune moment ofr that. We have a congress govt and a fractured saffron brigade. As for Pakistanis, especially those from the Isalmic and military circles I dont think they will be ready to give up their 'cause' however futile that is. Whats your take on it? 


If ever I thought this problem would have been solved irreversably only under a dictator like Musharraf, because anytime like now politicians may use it for saying it was not adequately discussed among people and then they may try to toss the issue over to milk votes.

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## jarnee

One question? Why are sensible people in Pakistan(assuming forum members) supporting this, when it means WAR. If there is a direct F2F war , both Pakistan and India will suffer, B. If its a Covert war Pakistan will suffer more, dont tell me our intelligence agencies are that impotent.


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## ek_indian

rubyjackass said:


> I am with you Imran Sahab. THIs is the most practical solution. Once we agree that LOC is IB, we can let people do whatever the hell they want to do, conduct business, kiss people across the border what not if we make borders soft. The most convincing argument for this is, as you rightly pointed out, we are not going to be able to change things at all. It did not change when there was a chance to change. It will not change in future as well.



I agree. This seems most practical and balanced solution.
Considering current scenario, India can not take pakistan's part of kashmir. Similarily Pakistan can not get India's part as well. So much ho-ha has been done regarding we "believe".....taking revenge...plebiscite....



rubyjackass said:


> loc=ib is a fair compromise though I can say a lot of Indians may disagree with this, but I think they can be convinced. This is the most opportune moment ofr that. We have a congress govt and a fractured saffron brigade. As for Pakistanis, especially those from the Isalmic and military circles I dont think they will be ready to give up their 'cause' however futile that is. Whats your take on it?



I agree with your part. However if Pakistan power center (read army) wishes, both nation could reach at a conclusion otherwise another Kargil!! My take is if PA is on board, everything else does not matter.



rubyjackass said:


> If ever I thought this problem would have been solved irreversably only under a dictator like Musharraf, because anytime like now politicians may use it for saying it was not adequately discussed among people and then they may try to toss the issue over to milk votes.



Agree. This was the prime reason I advocated for making peace with PA.

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## Bhushan

Asim Aquil said:


> I'm not talking about lists, I'm talking about the basis on which those lists were formalized.



When somebody is in complete denial , nobody can prove him anything in this world.Asim when you are in denial how come you will understand the basis on which those lists were formalized.


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## krish

India A shame democracy[/quote]

whom ur calling a shame democracy in my country My Defense Minister can call upon the army generals and take action in case of any misbehavior and pass an order to court martial him but i dare ur PM to call any of the army general in pakistan and court martial them for corruption if they have guts........... .... forget court martial the general do ur democratically elected government have control over the defense budget the government should give what the army wants....... but In Indian Army gets what the democratically elected government fixes........... trust me WE ARE PROUD OF OUR DEMOCRACY AND OUR ARMY...................


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## krish

footmarks said:


> Dont denigerate the term Patriot. Its like saying - Bal Thakery is a true Patriot.



Bal Thakery IS A TRUE PATRIOT ....................


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## Laughing Buddha

krish said:


> Bal Thakery IS A TRUE PATRIOT ....................



Yes My Friend

Bal Thakery is a true Indian Bal  who does not understand the word " Democracy "..and no doubt he is PATRIOT  by harming innocent and poor people...his goons always takes on poor and needy people... he will never speak about Gujarati and Marwari.....I think he is one of "The Shame of India" where India does not Shine.... and believe me i don't support any political party.


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## All-Green

RobbieS said:


> Taimi, the term non-state actors is too easy to use and pretty convenient. Do you think people here are fools that they will believe that no ISI help was involved? A retired ISI general is seen at JuD meetings with terrorist honchos. What does that suggest?Salahuddin and Masood Azhar roam about openly. And terrorism has been a state policy of GoP for years, irrespective of the civilian or military govt. in power.
> 
> And don't count on the Americans leaving soon. Thank your country's stars that they are here in the first place. Otherwise Pakistan would have still been ruled by a military junta with Musharraf as its ring leader and the country would have been a pariah. Pakistan was of no use to the US after the cold war. Its was 9/11 that made Pak important for US. Thank your stars for that.



The likelihood of ISI planning the Mumbai attack is pretty much zero, ISI is not foolish/unprofessional to completely put their own country at risk via such obvious overt operations with extremely visible links to Pakistan and not to mention directed at soft targets only without any strategic advantage...a totally evil plan but on top of that also not gaining anything except bad name for Pakistan.
Even if some evil genius was in charge he would not give a green signal for such an operation.

If ISI was after something in India, it would target their Intelligence apparatus and command and control facilities to disrupt the Indian war machine.
Similar to what is being targeted in Pakistan by the TTP...

Still i would not say that i have concrete evidence that RAW is helping TTP, i am just saying based on experience that the trend of hitting ISI safe houses and other facilities is more of something which can be called a focused intelligence driven terrorism which needs some expertise.
Mumbai though sad and tragic is more of a bid by terrorists to create breathing space for themselves in wake of extremely hostile environment by driving Pakistan and India towards war and shifting Pakistan Army on the back foot.

Anyways, this is off topic...you can PM me and we can discuss in detail.

Regarding Kashmir, it is best that for now both countries accept LOC as soft border and make it easier for Kashmiris to travel on both sides of LOC within Kashmir.
This step tied with a review of the water accord to address Pakistan's genuine concerns as a downstream entity would make things many times better between both countries.
Third can be a trade accord and fourth can be transit of goods and gas etc.

This will deal a death blow to the extremist element in both countries and will usher in a new era of prosperity with both peoples focused towards economic development.

For sake of peace, egos have to be checked and past grievances should at least be toned down.

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## yuba

agree with all green make loc soft border encourage cross border trade because neither side is gonna give up claim on kashmir seems only viable solution


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## RobbieS

All-Green said:


> Regarding Kashmir, it is best that for now both countries accept LOC as soft border and make it easier for Kashmiris to travel on both sides of LOC within Kashmir.
> This step tied with a review of the water accord to address Pakistan's genuine concerns as a downstream entity would make things many times better between both countries.
> Third can be a trade accord and fourth can be transit of goods and gas etc.
> 
> This will deal a death blow to the extremist element in both countries and will usher in a new era of prosperity with both peoples focused towards economic development.
> 
> For sake of peace, egos have to be checked and past grievances should at least be toned down.



Agreed totally. Talking is the way forward. But as of now, the people who'd be ready for that in India will be in the minority.

Its just that an average person in India is fed up of terror attacks on shopping centers, malls, hotels , buses and what not. Have you seen the movie A Wednesday? A Bollywood flick. Normally I don't quote movies but this one captures pretty accurately how a average middle class Indian feels about terrorist attacks.

And the one refrain you'd often here from people is that talks never got India anything, Lahore summit-Kargil happened, Agra summit- Parliament attack happened. I might be wrong to blame the ISI for it all, but the fact remains that Pakistani support was pretty evident in most Islamic-terrorist attacks in India. Masood Azhar, Salahuddin, Sheikh Omar all these are names that spread terror in India and are/were residing in Pakistan controlled areas. Untill these people are reigned in, I am afraid talks wouldn't lead to anything. For every dialogue/summit there would be 10 terrorist plans ready to disrupt any move towards peace.

And I speak from hearing discussions in offices, homes and amongst strangers on trains. The common man in India wants peace but is afraid to be stabbed just when he thought its safe to step out into the open.


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## Always Neutral

My Questions to all the posters here who go the most feasible solution LOC = IB

1. Who will control the waters ? Both your populations are growing rapidly and finding a solution for that will be even more complex in the future ?

2. Will you give the rights to water distribution the Kashmiri's as its their water ? Well Sind is not ready give water to its so called Brothers in AJK which recently led to the cancellation of Zardar's visit. Indian states regularly squabble over water ?

3. Who is going to go after JUD if they do not accept such a situation and still insist on an armed struggle. Will the PA open new front as in FATA ?

Regards


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## Contrarian

krish said:


> Bal Thakery IS A TRUE PATRIOT ....................



Bal Thakeray is a a$$.


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## dabong1

toxic_pus said:


> Except that this rule of majority didnt apply to princely states, and Kashmir was a princely state. The rule that applied was that the rulers and rulers alone would decide which way to swing.



And the rulers of these areas chosse pakistan...... so they should be part of pakistan should they not ,according your logic?




toxic_pus said:


> Plebiscite was Indias self-imposed obligation in accordance with what was followed in Junagadh and Hyderabad. In fact, Kashmir wouldnt have become such an imbroglio if Jinnah hadnt become so impatient, or at least didnt reject Mountbattens suggestion of plebiscite as early as 1st Nov, 1947 (I have to check the date).



Pakistan waited to see what would happen in Junagadh and Hyderabad......would the indians accept the wishes of the rulers or the people........you choose they people after invading the areas knowing fully well that being majority hindu they would vote for india.
Why the double standard when it comes to kashmir?




toxic_pus said:


> The double standard is on your part. Pakistan first rejected plebiscite in any of the princely states of Junagadh, Hyderabad and Kashmir and wanted accession as per Section 6(1) of India Act, 1935. (That section declared that accession will be deemed to have been completed if the ruler had executed the Instrument of Accession). But then when Pakistanis realized that their plans in Kashmir were coming to naught, they immediately changed their position and started asking for plebiscite. That is hypocrisy.



Maybe if you had accepted the wishes of the rulers of Junagadh and Hyderabad we would have done the same for kashmir........but you indians did not accept the wishes of the rulers when it came to Junagadh and Hyderabad but are willing to accept it when it comes kashmir........"Why the double standard when it comes to kashmir?" 



toxic_pus said:


> Contrast that to Indias position. India had always maintained that plebiscite would be the key. Accordingly, plebiscite in Junagadh and Hyderabad was held. Unfortunately, in Kashmir, Pakistans presence complicated things, particularly because Pakistan was unwilling to honour its obligation under the UN resolutions. Since plebiscite was contingent upon Pakistans withdrawal of its own citizens and tribesmen (and subsequent demilitarization), which never happened, plebiscite never happened.



You invaded Junagadh and Hyderabad and then held a vote under the indian army........double standards again.




toxic_pus said:


> So. The resolutions are under Chapter VI, which merely make them recommendatory


.

And what was the recommendation?




toxic_pus said:


> Siachen would be violation of Shimla Accord, if you can prove that Siachen was part of Pakistan.



(ii) In Jammu and Kashmir, the line of control resulting from the ceasefire of December 17, 1971, shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognised position of either side.* Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally, irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations. *Both sides further undertake to refrain from the threat or the use of force in violation of this line.

* Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally, irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations. * i think that covers your excuse.




toxic_pus said:


> Regardless of that, if your logic is to be followed, then UN resolutions became void, the moment PA broke the cease fire agreement in 1965.



Not according to the UN......the UN resolution still stands.
Has the UN said that the kashmir resolution is void?




toxic_pus said:


> O yes, we have. It is a bilateral issue and no apple of Pakistans eye has any role here.



Well stop bringing china into it then.......you cant have it both ways. 




toxic_pus said:


> Sure. Why not. I am assuming that all Pakistanis have been withdrawn from all of P0K.



The tribes man left many decades ago.......sorry excuse for not giving the people there rights.



toxic_pus said:


> O wait



Wait for what?.... more excuses from india?


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## asq

karan.1970 said:


> the UN resolution of 1948 is no longer enforcable.. get over it... UN has.. When did you last see a neutral country of importance raise this issue in last few years??



It is people like u Karen who are not interested in solving world's problems without Wars. We call them War Mongers

Next war will not be fought in the shadows of Traiters of East pakistan or will not be fought when dum leaders are ruling Pakistan as in the case of Yahya Khan, it will be a senario in which WMD's will be a viable OPTION for Pakistan considering the ground realities of the front. 

India never did and never will win against Pakistan but u guys assume too much, And u know what ASSUME means.

Your assume that all kashmiirs are happy to live under Indian rule. Wrong. Kashmiris have been demandinf freedom from India for 60 years. 90,000 have been killed so far and u assume it is peacefull inb Kashmi. Wrong.

You assume that you hold elections in Kashmir. Wrong they are mock elections.

ou assume that you won all the wars wrong.

You assume that India will retain the control on Kashmir fior ever . Wrong.

So Karen learn to live peaxce with your neighbours and solve the problems by negotiations and by threats.


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## asq

malaymishra123 said:


> Bal Thakeray is a a$$.



Telling us that Bal Thackerey is an A&& means nothing, Charge him and jial him. Talk is only clever way of deciet, to make it believable, charge him, jail him,do not leave him as he is to do his dirty work.


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## asq

BlackSonic said:


> This pic proves that more than anti-India this rally is anti-Pakistani.
> Now don't ask me how? Samajdar ko ishara hi kafi hai.....



Calling them kids is an insult to the intelligance, they are 18 and over and are fit for soldiering.

Learn some factsssssssssssssssss. Dude.


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## asq

footmarks said:


> Thats exactly the problem. British made the mistake and we were desperate for freedom, so we accepted breaking up of India into two parts based on religion. But now, we are free and we wont allow this breaking up under religious lines any more. People belonging to any & every religion are most welcome to live peacefully in India as an Indian. Those who dont want that- are free to move to Pakistan. But - our land will remain our land. Kashmir will be in India, those who dont want to be Indians are free to embrace any country's citizenship. After all people choosing to live in US for example, dont take their land to US with them.



British made a mistake, R. u. serious man. U seem to know little about British or u r. trying to cover up the reasons behind this by saying silly thing such as British made a mistake.

Wow. U need to learn about British lot more, Man.


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## asq

jarnee said:


> One question? Why are sensible people in Pakistan(assuming forum members) supporting this, when it means WAR. If there is a direct F2F war , both Pakistan and India will suffer, B. If its a Covert war Pakistan will suffer more, dont tell me our intelligence agencies are that impotent.



So good and sensible people talk to solve the problems, but India has been not forthcomming on it, uses all kinds of excuses such as Hafiz Saeed etc etc.


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## asq

Spitfighter said:


> Take Kashmir by force? what a joke. When have these fools ever succeeded in their so called 'jihad'? They've been beating their chests and shouting slogans for 2 decades now, what have they achieved? The PA could only watch as we carpet bombed an entire regiment out of existence, and they'll take Kashmir by force?? with what??
> 
> Let them come. We have *700,000* friendly soldiers eagerly waiting their arrival. We have tens of billions in reserve, over a million men in the paramilitary, reserves and active service *each* (~3.5 million) and 1.2 billion people behind them.
> 
> We'll see how far they get, they know where Kashmir is, come get it.



and guns do not fire by themselves, someone with courage has to do it, 

Let me tell u a story about courage.

Jawan Sawar Muhammad Hussain Shaheed

Date of Shahadat: 10 sep 1971
Age: 22 years

Jawan-Sawar-Muhammad-Hussain

Born 18th June 1949 in Dhok Pir Baksh (now Dhok Mohammad Husain Janjua). Enlisted as a driver on 3 September 1966. Although only a driver in the 20th Lancers, when war broke out in 1971, Sowar Mohammad Hussein took an active part in every battle in which his unit was engaged unmindful of any danger, no matter how grave. When he spotted the enemy digging in along a minefield near the village of Harar Khurd in December 1971 on his own initiative he directed accurate fire at the enemy resulting in the destruction of sixteen enemy tanks. But while directing fire from recoilless rifles, he was hit in the chest by a burst of machine-gun fire and died on 10 December 1971 at the age of 22.


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## karan.1970

asq said:


> Calling them kids is an insult to the intelligance, they are 18 and over and are fit foer soldiering.
> 
> Learn somr facts Man.



you are missing the 8 year old in the left most corner


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## Bullhead

Jud vows to take kashmir by force ? How? just the way they tried Khalistan.....or any other *******tan....do these suckers have balls to confront army face to face.....all these semi bearded.....fatsos.....are not even worth a bullet....let them rot in Pakistan....and let pakistan feed them.so that they can create more troubles for their creator.


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## asq

Raje amar said:


> Thats what India expects from Pakistan........
> Please.....Please .......Please dont allow any terrerist activity from Pakistani soil against India. Let alone Kashmir, if you can do this much our relations will improve more than half way.......


 
We shall talk if u stop killing innnocent kashmirs and raping Kashmiri women and allow freedom to the Kashmiris to choose their destiny.

And o hes withdraw you 500,000 soldier, This an indication that Kashmiri populous do not agree to stay with India, so India send half million of its soldiers to the valley.

If u think they accept Indian rule, why than u have 500,000 soldiers in Kashmir.

It is clear indication of opression and nor freeedom.

Is it too hard for you to see this. I wonder about your ligic. dude.


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## karan.1970

asq said:


> It is people like u Karen who are not interested in solving world's problems without Wars. We call them War Mongers


If you want to call defending your country's sovreignity as war mongering then so be it. In which case, I am a war moger and bl*ody well proud of it..



asq said:


> Next war will not be fought in the shadows of Traiters of East pakistan or will not be fought when dum leaders are ruling Pakistan as in the case of Yahya Khan, it will be a senario in which WMD's will be a viable OPTION for Pakistan considering the ground realities of the front.


Rubbish



asq said:


> India never did and never will win against Pakistan but u guys assume too much, And u know what ASSUME means.


same as above



asq said:


> Your assume that all kashmiirs are happy to live under Indian rule. Wrong. Kashmiris have been demandinf freedom from India for 60 years. 90,000 have been killed so far and u assume it is peacefull inb Kashmi. Wrong.



I have said it before, saying it again. Whoever does not want to live in India is free to leave. No one is forcing anyone to stay. 



asq said:


> You assume that you hold elections in Kashmir. Wrong they are mock elections.


We didnt have to request international observers like Pakistani Elections. So at least our elections were not the worst of the lot



asq said:


> you assume that you won all the wars wrong.



OK



asq said:


> You assume that India will retain the control on Kashmir fior ever . Wrong.


Rubbish



asq said:


> So Karen learn to live peaxce with your neighbours and solve the problems by negotiations and by threats.



Would love to, but Kashmir is non negotiable and any one trying to snatch it from India is a fair Kill (Asim, dude, I love the term you coined..)

btw , the name is Kar*A*n and not Karen..


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## karan.1970

asq said:


> Telling us that Bal Thackerey is an A&& means nothing, Charge him and jial him. Talk is only clever, to make it beleivable charge him and jail him and not leave him as he is to do his dirty work by allowing him freedom to contnue to do his dirty work.



unfortunately, we dont have any credible proof against him that can stand scrutiny of our courts.. just like Mr Saeed. So despite the fact that most Indians dislike him, we cant jail him


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## Awesome

I agree, all the talk against Hindu fundos is never matched by actual jail time ever.


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## asq

Mr X said:


> Seriously tell me one answer please............. Is there any real solution of Kashmir?



It is known as PLEBICITE


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## karan.1970

asq said:


> and guns do not fire by themselves, someone with courage has to do it,
> 
> Let me tell u a story about courage.
> 
> Jawan Sawar Muhammad Hussain Shaheed
> 
> Date of Shahadat: 10 sep 1971
> Age: 22 years
> 
> Jawan-Sawar-Muhammad-Hussain
> 
> Born 18th June 1949 in Dhok Pir Baksh (now Dhok Mohammad Husain Janjua). Enlisted as a driver on 3 September 1966. Although only a driver in the 20th Lancers, when war broke out in 1971, Sowar Mohammad Hussein took an active part in every battle in which his unit was engaged unmindful of any danger, no matter how grave. When he spotted the enemy digging in along a minefield near the village of Harar Khurd in December 1971 on his own initiative he directed accurate fire at the enemy resulting in the destruction of sixteen enemy tanks. But while directing fire from recoilless rifles, he was hit in the chest by a burst of machine-gun fire and died on 10 December 1971 at the age of 22.
> 
> YouTube - Nishan e Haider (1) - Documentary



My salute to the brave soul. We have a lot of similar stories on our side too. Its such a shame that people of these qualities have to die such deaths for us to feel proud of them.


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## asq

karan.1970 said:


> unfortunately, we dont have any credible proof against him that can stand scrutiny of our courts.. just like Mr Saeed. So despite the fact that most Indians dislike him, we cant jail him



U have all the proof such as that of Gujrat riots, but you choose to ignore it, on the other hand we have asked u many times to send the proof against Hafiz saeed to us, u have failed to do it. we believe that u r not sending us the proof because it will expose your extemeist group who killed Karkarey.

Can u see the differance Dude, what ever u r.

Sorry. It is Karan.


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## karan.1970

asq said:


> U have all the proof such as that of Gujrat riots, but you choose to ignore it, on the other hand we have asked u many times to send the proof against Hafiz saeed to us, u have faile to do it. we believe that u er notr sending us the proff becausse it will expose your extemeist group who killed Karkarey.
> 
> Can u see the differance Due or Dudet, what ebver u r.



Please at least try to talk logically. If Hafeez Sayeed is sitting in Pakistan and master minding the attacks from there, how in h ell would proof be in India . The proof will be where the culprit is.. But its all a moot point.. Pakistan will never arrest or try him since he is doing their dirty work.


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## footmarks

asq said:


> British made a mistake, R. u. serious man. U seem to know little about British or u r. trying to cover up the reasons behind this by saying silly thing such as British made a mistake.
> 
> Wow. U need to learn about British lot more, Man.



Please teach me the truth about British then. Dont talk silly, ok. If you want to oppose my words, give alternate thoughts or facts. dont show ur attitude.
Whoever was responsible for the partition of India and birth of Pakistan, I dont care anymore. All I want to say is that- those who dont want to be Indian and dont want to live in India are free to move to any country of their choice. But, as I said earlier, Land belongs to the nation, not to any individual. Geographically Kashmir is India's territory, If some ppl want to join pakistan, allow them to come to pakistan and give them pakistani ctizenship. Or keep your mouth shut rather then shedding crocodile tears about plight of Kashmiris.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

footmarks said:


> Geographically Kashmir is India's territory,



Not true according to the UNSC resolutions that declare Kashmir disputed territory, to which India, Pakistan and the international community agreed and committed to.

The resolution to the dispute remains granting the people the right to self-determination, in whatever configuration - district by district, the entire State, or separately as Kashmir (kashmir valley+ Azad kashmir), Jammu, Laddakh and Gilgit-Baltistan.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Not true according to the UNSC resolutions that declare Kashmir disputed territory, to which India, Pakistan and the international community agreed and committed to.
> 
> The resolution to the dispute remains granting the people the right to self-determination, in whatever configuration - district by district, the entire State, or separately as Kashmir (kashmir valley+ Azad kashmir), Jammu, Laddakh and Gilgit-Baltistan.



We can keep discussing the UN resolution till cows come home, but every one knows that it doesnt have a hope in hell to get implemented. The only way either India or Pakistan will yield on Kashmir is thru a crushing military defeat which is not possible in today's scenario either way. So the only chance some of the misguided inhabitants of Kashmir have to join Pakistan is by leaving india and taking citizenship of pakistan occupied Kashmir. The GoI will actually be glad to let these folks go. But we know its not gonna happen either..


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## Contrarian

Asim Aquil said:


> I agree, all the talk against Hindu fundos is never matched by actual jail time ever.



Because they are not comiting an illegality. We can object to their views, Govt cannot jail them.

@asq:
Im not writing here to conform to your needs.

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## footmarks

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Not true according to the UNSC resolutions that declare Kashmir disputed territory, to which India, Pakistan and the international community agreed and committed to.
> 
> The resolution to the dispute remains granting the people the right to self-determination, in whatever configuration - district by district, the entire State, or separately as Kashmir (kashmir valley+ Azad kashmir), Jammu, Laddakh and Gilgit-Baltistan.



If this is the case, and if Pakistan really supports Kashmir's freedom, why dont GOP declare Pakistan administered Kashmir as a soverign country and try to pass a resolution in UN for the same. one third of Kashmir is in your hands. Like Republic of China, let it become Republic of Kashmir,Let International community pressurise India to follow pakistan then.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

footmarks said:


> If this is the case, and if Pakistan really supports Kashmir's freedom, why dont GOP declare Pakistan administered Kashmir as a soverign country and try to pass a resolution in UN for the same. one third of Kashmir is in your hands. Like Republic of China, let it become Republic of Kashmir,Let International community pressurise India to follow pakistan then.



We support resolution of the dispute through self-determination - under the UNSC resolutions there is no third option for 'freedom'.

Nonetheless, Azad kashmir does have a significant degree of autonomy, and passing a resolution in the UN and making Azad kashmir an independent nation does not resolve the issue of the territory occupied by India does it? So why do it?

If India and Israel can willfully violate their commitments to the UNSC resolutions on Kashmir and Palestine, then why would an additional resolution in the UNSC change things?

Why doesn't the international community pressure India to agree to fulfill its commitment to the existing resolutions and negotiate with Pakistan to implement a referendum?

The UNSC resolutions already had the broad agreement of India, Pakistan and the international community on the principle of a plebiscite under the UN to determine which nation the Kashmiris can be part of - what is needed is the will on the Indian side to move towards implementing that solution of a plebiscite.


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## Spitfighter

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> We support resolution of the dispute through self-determination - under the UNSC resolutions there is no third option for 'freedom'.



I doubt that, Pakistan has violated the resolution on several occasions.



> Nonetheless, Azad kashmir does have a significant degree of autonomy, and passing a resolution in the UN and making Azad kashmir an independent nation does not resolve the issue of the territory occupied by India does it? So why do it?



Indian Kashmir has a pretty significant degree of autonomy too under article 370 of the constitution.



> If India and Israel can willfully violate their commitments to the UNSC resolutions on Kashmir and Palestine, then why would an additional resolution in the UNSC change things?



Don't forget to add Pakistan to that list, and yes, additional UNSC resolutions won't change a thing, India won't even let it get that far in the first place.



> Why doesn't the international community pressure India to agree to fulfill its commitment to the existing resolutions and negotiate with Pakistan to implement a referendum?



*Pressure* India and* negotiate* with Pakistan? lol. 

Kashmir is a bilateral issue, India won't let the intl' community intervene, besides the resolutions are defunct, the insurgency sponsored by Pakistan changed the situation on ground.



> The UNSC resolutions already had the broad agreement of India, Pakistan and the international community on the principle of a plebiscite under the UN to determine which nation the Kashmiris can be part of - what is needed is the will on the Indian side to move towards implementing that solution of a plebiscite.



It is meaningless to continually bring up the UNSC resolutions, they are irrelevant and you should focus on the issue rather than try to find a moral high ground, both sides are equally guilty. India and Pakistan will have to work it out by themselves. 

A plebiscite is firmly out of the question. Kashmir is of too much strategic value (rivers) for India to completely give up its claim however a compromise on the more volatile regions (the valley) is plausible. A resolution was possible under Musharraf as nothing of that sort is possible without the PA in the loop. The current government in Pakistan is too weak to follow through on any deals, furthermore the situation in Pakistan and Afghanistan is still evolving, so I doubt we'd make any moves for at least the next 4 years, if at all depending on how things go. 

(also *@ Asim*) 

By the way, how can a 'charity' organization threaten us with war? Nothing will change until Pakistan cuts these groups off. Plain and simple. India has more guns than Pakistan and these jihadis put together, there is no military solution, India cannot be forced out of Kashmir. By sponsoring these cave dwellers, Pakistan is weakening its own support within India and making a resolution that much more unlikely.

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## Solomon2

Asim Aquil said:


> We have no issues with these parties fighting in Kashmir, but we do have issues when they fight outside of Kashmir. We also have issues when these parties fight in Kashmir using Pakistan as its base of operations.
> 
> Fight Indian Army in Kashmir from India, and you have our blessings.


Which means, from my point of view, that you consider terrorism against India OK whether or not such deeds can be traced back to Pakistan. That's what the world community wants Pakistan to give up, and what the GoP (and Pakistanis in general, it seems) still won't commit to do.


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## paritosh

Solomon2 said:


> Which means, from my point of view, that you consider terrorism against India OK whether or not such deeds can be traced back to Pakistan. That's what the world community wants Pakistan to give up, and what the GoP (and Pakistanis in general, it seems) still won't commit to do.



_they_ would stop reading your post after the word 'terrorism'...for whatever the JuDs and the LeTs do in Kashmir is a freedom fight...
At one end they speak of the matter being an international dispute and try reminding us of the impending talks and conferences that we should participate in...and of all the UN resolutions over Kashmir that we have forgotten..
and on the other hand they openly profess their love and support to the "armed freedom struggle" some scary guys are waging....
quite frankly I hope that they stick to the latter approach...

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## asq

footmarks said:


> Please teach me the truth about British then. Dont talk silly, ok. If you want to oppose my words, give alternate thoughts or facts. dont show ur attitude.
> Whoever was responsible for the partition of India and birth of Pakistan, I dont care anymore. All I want to say is that- those who dont want to be Indian and dont want to live in India are free to move to any country of their choice. But, as I said earlier, Land belongs to the nation, not to any individual. Geographically Kashmir is India's territory, If some ppl want to join pakistan, allow them to come to pakistan and give them pakistani ctizenship. Or keep your mouth shut rather then shedding crocodile tears about plight of Kashmiris.



What silly statement, countries are created out of existing lands, Namely Pakistan, another Pakistan can be created again if Muslims in India are kept down by force, cause force will has neveer solved anything.dude.


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## asq

paritosh said:


> _they_ would stop reading your post after the word 'terrorism'...for whatever the JuDs and the LeTs do in Kashmir is a freedom fight...
> At one end they speak of the matter being an international dispute and try reminding us of the impending talks and conferences that we should participate in...and of all the UN resolutions over Kashmir that we have forgotten..
> and on the other hand they openly profess their love and support to the "armed freedom struggle" some scary guys are waging....
> quite frankly I hope that they stick to the latter approach...



bird of the same feather, occpying lands which belong to others.

wrongly calling selve as Democracies, if so prove by holding free and fair elections in the ocupied areas, and please put us to shame by showing that the one we talk about are really with you, if u r what u say than do it man, it will be better than going to war and having many soldiers and civilians killed.


But i don't thuink u give value to such thing because in reality u r opressors.


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## asq

Solomon2 said:


> Which means, from my point of view, that you consider terrorism against India OK whether or not such deeds can be traced back to Pakistan. That's what the world community wants Pakistan to give up, and what the GoP (and Pakistanis in general, it seems) still won't commit to do.



if u comit to the recent U.N about Gaza than talk. dude,

Israel rejects war crimes findings of UN Gaza inquiry | World news | guardian.co.uk


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## asq

paritosh said:


> _they_ would stop reading your post after the word 'terrorism'...for whatever the JuDs and the LeTs do in Kashmir is a freedom fight...
> At one end they speak of the matter being an international dispute and try reminding us of the impending talks and conferences that we should participate in...and of all the UN resolutions over Kashmir that we have forgotten..
> and on the other hand they openly profess their love and support to the "armed freedom struggle" some scary guys are waging....
> quite frankly I hope that they stick to the latter approach...



U .R totally misqouting us and that is a shame, it looks that u will go lower than the belly of a crawly creepy thing in order to make browny points with Solomon.

Man where is your dignity.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Spitfighter said:


> I doubt that, Pakistan has violated the resolution on several occasions.


Nowhere close to refusing to honor the resolutions period, which is India's current position, and has been for several decades.



> Indian Kashmir has a pretty significant degree of autonomy too under article 370 of the constitution.


 However, Pakistan remains committed to the underlying principle of Kashmiris determining their destiny through a plebiscite, whereas India does not.



> Don't forget to add Pakistan to that list, and yes, additional UNSC resolutions won't change a thing, India won't even let it get that far in the first place.



Pakistan has not willfully refused to implement the resolutions, so no, Pakistan is not on that list.


> *Pressure* India and* negotiate* with Pakistan? lol.


Perhaps I should have put better punctuation in there ... 'Pressure India to implement its commitments and pressure India to negotiate with Pakistan on how to arrive at the goal of plebiscite'.



> Kashmir is a bilateral issue, India won't let the intl' community intervene, besides the resolutions are defunct, the insurgency sponsored by Pakistan changed the situation on ground.


Nothing in the resolutions suggests 'defunctness' based on whether an insurgency occurred or not, in fact, the resolutions remain valid until replaced by new resolutions or the resolution of the dispute between the concerned parties.



> It is meaningless to continually bring up the UNSC resolutions, they are irrelevant and you should focus on the issue rather than try to find a moral high ground, both sides are equally guilty. India and Pakistan will have to work it out by themselves.


Pakistan does have the moral high ground - we stand for giving the Kashmiris the right to self-determination per the UNSC resolutions and the commitments to them of plebiscite by India and Pakistan, whereas India stands for occupation of J&K and a refusal to let Kashmiris decide their future as India herself committed to.



> *INDIA'S COMMITMENT OF PLEBISCITE FOR THE PEOPLE OF KASHMIR​*
> &#8220;Our view which we have repeatedly made public is that the question of accession in any disputed territory or State must be decided in accordance with wishes of people and we adhere to this view.&#8221;
> 
> JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
> 
> (in telegram No. 402-Primin-2227 dated 27 October 1947 to Prime Minister of Pakistan repeating telegram addressed to Prime Minister of United Kingdom).
> 
> _ &#8220;In regard to accession also, it has been made clear that this is subject to reference to people of State and their decision.&#8221;_
> 
> JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
> 
> (in telegram No.413 dated 28 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).
> 
> _ &#8220; &#8230;&#8230;.the people of Kashmir would decide the question of accession. It is open to them to accede to either Dominion then.&#8221;_
> 
> JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
> 
> (in telegram No.255 dated 31 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).
> 
> _ &#8220;Kashmir should decide question of accession by plebiscite or referendum under international auspices such as those of the United Nations.&#8221;_
> 
> JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
> 
> (Letter No. 368-Primin dated 21 November 1947 to Prime Minister of Pakistan).
> 
> _ &#8220;We are anxious not to finalize anything in a moment of crisis and without the fullest opportunity to be given to the people of Kashmir to have their say. It is for them ultimately to decide.
> 
> &#8220;And let me make it clear that it has been our policy all along that where there is a dispute about the accession of a state to either Dominion, the accession must be made by the people of that state.&#8221;_
> 
> JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
> 
> (Statement in Indian Constituent Assembly; 25 November 1947).
> 
> _ &#8220;We have not opposed at any time an over-all plebiscite for the State as a whole&#8230;&#8230;.&#8221;_
> 
> JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
> 
> (in telegram dated 16 August 1950 addressed to the U.N. Representative for India and Pakistan: S/1791 : Anne 1(B).
> 
> _&#8220;The most feasible method of ascertaining the wishes of the people was by fair and impartial plebiscite.&#8221;_
> 
> JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
> 
> (Joint press communique of the Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan issued in Delhi after their meeting on 20 August 1953).
> 
> _ &#8220;People seem to forget that Kashmir is not a commodity for sale or to be bartered. It has an individual existence and its people must be the final arbiters of their future.&#8221;
> _
> JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
> 
> (Report to the All-India Congress Committee, 6 July 1951; The Statesman, New Delhi, 9 July 1951).
> 
> _&#8220;Kashmir is not a thing to be bandied about between India and Pakistan but it has a soul of its own and an individuality of its own. Nothing can be done without the goodwill and consent of the people of Kashmir.&#8221;_
> 
> JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
> 
> (Statement in the Indian Parliament, 31 March 1955).
> 
> _&#8220;We had given our pledge to the people of Kashmir, and subsequently to the United Nations; we stood by it and we stand by it today. Let the people of Kashmir decide.&#8221;_
> 
> JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
> 
> (Statement in the Indian Parliament, 12 February 1951).
> 
> _ &#8220;We have taken the issue to the United Nations and given our word of honour for a peaceful solution. As a great nation, we cannot go back on it. We have left the question for final solution to the people of Kashmir and we are determined to abide by their decision.&#8221;_
> 
> JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
> 
> (Amrita Bazar Patrika, Calcutta, 2 January 1952).
> 
> _ &#8220;If, after a proper plebiscite, the people of Kashmir said, &#8216;We do not want to be with India&#8217;, we are committed to accept that. We will accept it though it might pain us. We will not send any army against them. We will accept that, however hurt we might feel about it, we will change the Constitution, if necessary.&#8221;
> _
> JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
> 
> (Statement in the Indian Parliament, 26 June 1952).
> _
> &#8220;I want to stress that it is only the people of Kashmir who can decide the future of Kashmir. It is not that we have merely said that to the United Nations and to the people of Kashmir; it is our conviction and one that is borne out by the policy that we have pursued, not only in Kashmir but every where.
> 
> &#8220;I started with the presumption that it is for the people of Kashmir to decide their own future. We will not compel them. In that sense, the people of Kashmir are sovereign.&#8221;
> _
> JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
> (Statement in Indian Parliament, 7 August 1952)
> 
> _ &#8220;The whole dispute about Kashmir is still before the United Nations. We cannot just decide things concerning Kashmir. We cannot pass a bill or issue an order concerning Kashmir or do whatever we want._
> 
> JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
> 
> (The Statesman, 1 May 1953)
> 
> _ &#8220;Leave the decision regarding the future of this State to the people of the State is not merely a promise to your Government but also to the people of Kashmir and to the world.&#8221;_
> 
> JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
> 
> (In telegram No. 25 dated 31 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).
> 
> _ &#8220;In regard to accession also it has been made clear that this is subject to reference to people of State and their decision.&#8221;_
> 
> JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
> 
> (In telegram No.413 dated 28 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).
> 
> _ &#8220;That Government of India and Pakistan should make a joint request to U.N.O. to undertake a plebiscite in Kashmir at the earliest possible date.&#8221;_
> 
> JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
> (In telegram No. Primin-304 dated 8 November 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).
> 
> _&#8220;We have always right from the beginning accepted the idea of the Kashmir people deciding their fate by referendum or plebiscite&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..&#8221;
> 
> &#8220;Ultimately, the final decision of settlement, which must come, has first of all to be made basically by the people of Kashmir&#8230;&#8230;.&#8221;_
> 
> JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
> 
> (Statement at Press Conference in London, 16 January 1951, The Statesman, 18 January 1951).
> 
> _&#8220;But so far as the Government of India are concerned, every assurance and international commitment in regard to Kashmir stands.&#8221;_





> A plebiscite is firmly out of the question. Kashmir is of too much strategic value (rivers) for India to completely give up its claim however a compromise on the more volatile regions (the valley) is plausible. A resolution was possible under Musharraf as nothing of that sort is possible without the PA in the loop. The current government in Pakistan is too weak to follow through on any deals, furthermore the situation in Pakistan and Afghanistan is still evolving, so I doubt we'd make any moves for at least the next 4 years, if at all depending on how things go.


And you continue to point out why Pakistan has the high moral ground by continuing to willfully declare India's intent to violate its commitment to the UNSC and the Kashmiri people, the commitment of plebiscite.

The excuse of a 'weak government' is a poor excuse. Even if one assumes the PA calls the shots instead of the GoP, why would the GoP not coordinate with the PA on negotiations with India and why would any proposal not amenable to the PA even be put forward? After all, as you pointed out, the PA as an institution backed Musharraf's peace efforts and proposals, which were some of the most significant for decades.
(also *@ Asim*) 


> By the way, how can a 'charity' organization threaten us with war? Nothing will change until Pakistan cuts these groups off. Plain and simple. India has more guns than Pakistan and these jihadis put together, there is no military solution, India cannot be forced out of Kashmir. By sponsoring these cave dwellers, Pakistan is weakening its own support within India and making a resolution that much more unlikely.


India is doing little to indicate it is interested in resolving the dispute, as indicated by the following statement:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...an-insists-kashmir-territorial-dispute-5.html

So what exactly are you threatening Pakistan with by suggesting 'nothing will change'?
India appears to have indicated 'nothing will change' all on its own.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Solomon2 said:


> Which means, from my point of view, that you consider terrorism against India OK whether or not such deeds can be traced back to Pakistan. That's what the world community wants Pakistan to give up, and what the GoP (and Pakistanis in general, it seems) still won't commit to do.



Since when is fighting occupation terrorism? Would the international community agree then that the US is a state founded on the basis of terrorism?

It is terrorism only when innocents are deliberately targeted, and that applies to both state and non-state actors IMO.

Perhaps you should apply your energies to convincing the international community to pressure India to let the Kashmiris decide, as promised under the UNSC resolutions. Surely as concerned as you are about 'terrorism' - the subjugation and occupation of a people would be of concern to you. 

Oh wait - you support Israel and all of its depraved and illegal policies, so never mind.


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## asq

karan.1970 said:


> you are missing the 8 year old in the left most corner



So out of 5000, people u only see one kid on the side.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Solomon2 said:


> Which means, from my point of view, that you consider terrorism against India OK whether or not such deeds can be traced back to Pakistan. That's what the world community wants Pakistan to give up, and what the GoP (and Pakistanis in general, it seems) still won't commit to do.



*People fighting an occupying force are called FREEDOM FIGHTERS*.According to UN.And many countries have attained freedom through it.So calling it terrorism is nothin but retarded.And i hope you know *90000 youths have been killed in kashmir.Scores are missing and same goes for rape victims*.And the FREEDOM FIGHTING *started in 1980s DECADES after the promise of Freedom by Nehru or REFRENDUM TO CHOSE COUNTRY OF CHOICE was not filled.*But it was ended by *prominent KASHMIRI FREEDOM FIGHTERS like Yasin Malik to show the world and the so-called largest democracy that they are not savage barbarians or terrorists and are fighting a fair war*.And even after they did come on the discussion table to talk and show the *peaceful protest for freedom remains unanswered.* 
Even *aftr 62 years* of occupation india has *FAILED* to pot them into the main national stream.They have not lost there identity even after 62 years *they still call themself KASHMIRIS not indians.*
During independence it was proposed that *PEOPLE NOT THE PRINCE or maharaja *will deciede there FAIT.Was that agriment fulfilled>>>>>>>>>.?
*Hyderabad* was a princely Majority muslim state it wanted to join Pakistan was it allowed to do so?*IT WAS CAPTURED BY FORCE USING MILITARY?*
*SAME GOES FOR STATE OF JUNAGARH WHOSE HEAD STILL RECIEVES PAY FROM ISLAMABAD>?*
And even *according to indian constitution Kashmir is not a part of india it is a DISPUTED PRINCELY STATE.*
So to call them terrorist is a big lie and serious accusation comming from a jew as yourself,And please put this topic on ur Blog where you discuss ANTI SEMITES.

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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Why doesn't the international community pressure India to agree to fulfill its commitment to the existing resolutions and negotiate with Pakistan to implement a referendum?
> 
> .



This solution is well past its "Best before" date. Today the referendum is just a negotiation chip used by Pakistan to score a point in negotiations with India. The concept is as foolhardy as trying to get Pakistan to give up its nukes


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## karan.1970

asq said:


> another Pakistan can be created again if Muslims in India are kept down by force,


Dont believe everything that your govt of You tube tells you..

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## sajan

Khuda se mannath hai meri&#8230;lauta de jannat woh meri&#8230;
woh aman&#8230; woh chaman&#8230; ka nazaara&#8230;
Oh kudha yaa&#8230; lauta de&#8230; kashmir dobara


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## karan.1970

asq said:


> So out of 5000, people u only see one kid on the side.



dont you think that even one kid with such on overt display of gun totting is bad...


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## karan.1970

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> *People fighting an occupying force are called FREEDOM FIGHTERS*.According to UN.


Oh! so UN is now calling LeT JuD etc as freedom fighters.. Hmm.. didnt they ban those organizations



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Even *aftr 62 years* of occupation india has *FAILED* to pot them into the main national stream.They have not lost there identity even after 62 years *they still call themself KASHMIRIS not indians.*


You mean like Baluchi people call them selves that instead of calling themselves as Pakistanis?? What kind of a sick logic is that??



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> And even *according to indian constitution Kashmir is not a part of india it is a DISPUTED PRINCELY STATE.*



This is rubbish even by your standards..*State of J&K *is governed under the provisions of article 370 of constitution of India:

This article specifies that except for Defence, Foreign Affairs, Finance and Communications,(matters specified in the instrument of accession) the Indian Parliament needs the State Government's concurrence for applying all other laws. Thus the state's residents lived under a separate set of laws, including those related to citizenship, ownership of property, and fundamental rights, as compared to other Indians.




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> So to call them terrorist is a big lie and serious accusation comming from a jew as yourself,And please put this topic on ur Blog where you discuss ANTI SEMITES.



Racist Alert....


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Nowhere close to refusing to honor the resolutions period, which is India's current position, and has been for several decades.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Pakistan has not willfully refused to implement the resolutions, so no, Pakistan is not on that list.


First, refusing to withdraw your citizens and tribesmen, then constitutionally incorporating Northern Areas leaving it in a limbo, then ceding territory to China, then blatantly violating the cease fire agreement in 1965.


> Nothing in the resolutions suggests 'defunctness' based on whether an insurgency occurred or not, in fact, the resolutions remain valid until replaced by new resolutions or the resolution of the dispute between the concerned parties.


Those holy UN resolutions became defunct in 1965. Thank Ayub for that.

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## EjazR

*DAWN.COM | National | Presidency has record of Kashmir proposal: Kasuri*

ISLAMABAD: Former foreign minister and PML (Likeminded) leader Khurshid Mahmood Kasuri strongly reacted on Monday to a statement made by Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi rejecting claims made by the Musharraf government and his foreign minister about progress on resolving the Kashmir issue as a result of backchannel diplomacy.

Mr Qureshi said on Sunday that if there was any proposal it might have been a secret between some individuals, but neither he nor the people of Pakistan knew anything about it because there was no record at the Foreign Office.

Mohammad Sadiq, a former Foreign Office spokesman and currently Pakistans Ambassador to Afghanistan, said in an interview last year that the secret proposal was still on the table.

In a statement issued by the PML House, Mr Khurshid claimed that the record of the proposal was with the government.



In fact, he said, President Asif Ali Zardari had in his first press conference as head of the state referred to progress on Kashmir settlement and stated rather overenthusiastically that he was aware of the progress and the nation would soon hear good news.

At least President Zardari, according to my knowledge, is aware of the backchannel diplomacy and the Presidency has a detailed record of it, he added.

Mr Kasuri said it was unfortunate and unbelievable that there was a total disconnect between the Presidency and the Foreign Office over the issue. Normally, if the Presidency has any record relating to the foreign policy the Foreign Office should have access to it.

The former foreign minister said he was surprised by Mr Qureshis statement, adding that it was a fair assumption that the Presidency would have shared the details with the foreign minister.

Mr Kasuri said that information about progress in backchannel talks was in the public domain.


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## hembo

All-Green said:


> ~~snip~~
> 
> Regarding Kashmir, it is best that for now both countries accept LOC as soft border and make it easier for Kashmiris to travel on both sides of LOC within Kashmir.
> This step tied with a review of the water accord to address Pakistan's genuine concerns as a downstream entity would make things many times better between both countries.
> Third can be a trade accord and fourth can be transit of goods and gas etc.
> 
> This will deal a death blow to the extremist element in both countries and will usher in a new era of prosperity with both peoples focused towards economic development.
> 
> For sake of peace, egos have to be checked and past grievances should at least be toned down.



The only problem with making LOC the IB WITH SOFT BORDER will be arising from the lack of trust between India- Pakistan. With the kind of history we have, it (the LOC) has the potential to become another Durand line. A border dividing a particular ethnic group, not acceptable to the particular ethnic group living on both side of the border.


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## Solomon2

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Perhaps you should apply your energies to convincing the international community to pressure India to let the Kashmiris decide, as promised under the UNSC resolutions.


Yes. That's something Pakistan should be hammering at over and over in the U.N. and bilaterally. Instead we have either Pakistani plots for conquest (according to Ms. Bhutto) and/or this terrorism stuff. All of which serves to make Pakistan look bad and India look good internationally. (Furthermore, Pakistanis choose not to perceive that many Kashmiris don't want such violence.) 



> Oh wait - you support -


Let's save the off-topic stuff for another thread.

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## Arik

I think this is what the Indian government must do.
The centre must divide Jammu and Kashmir into three separate states.
1)Jammu
2)Kashmir
3)Ladakh 

Jammu can be a normal state with a chief minister and a governer.
Ladakh can be a union territory and Kashmir can be a autonomous state but under the supervision of New Delhi.In that way the kashmiri people will be happy and they will not respond to the crap being told by some bearded mullahs across the border.


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## booo

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> *Hyderabad* was a princely Majority muslim state it wanted to join Pakistan was it allowed to do so?*IT WAS CAPTURED BY FORCE USING MILITARY?*


1. It was never a muslim majority state.
2. it was not military but was by police action called operation polo when razakars were trying hard to continue the nizam rule and civil war broke out.
may be you should get your facts right...

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## Jackdaws

One thing I wish to know is - 

If Pakistan want Kashmir's independence - then why did they invade an independent Kashmir in the first place? 

What do Pakistani history books teach? Do they teach that India invaded Kashmir first? Or do they teach that the ruler of Kashmir appealed to the Indian state after Pakistan had invaded and was fairly close to Srinagar?

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## Comet

LOLness......


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## Patriotic_Pakistani

AAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## DesiGuy

yep and you can see some of these examples as evidences on this forum. 


just look at 2 comment above my post.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Stop trolling.


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## Parashuram1

I don't think this would be possible because there is a large pro-Indian Kashmiri community of the native Pandits who had been displaced from the state and therefore granting the separatists' wishes against the wishes of the original inhabitants along with many other pro-democratic present-day Kashmiri natives.

I have been to Anantnag city in Kashmir (since it is my wife's hometown). I was surprised to see that barring a certain amount of separatists that are seen shouting on the T.V, most of the valley people are tired of violence and want daily provisions like electricity, water, education etc and are happy to be called Indians.

It was a pleasant surprise contrary to what neutral stance people here in Europe maintain. This might sound a little unbelievable to most Pakistani fellow members, but I assure you that this is the scenario. The residents in the province are tired of external terrorism and bomb explosions. 

Now even Pakistani citizenship faces the same dangers because of terrorist outfits operating in their country.

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## Spitfighter

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Nowhere close to refusing to honor the resolutions period, which is India's current position, and has been for several decades.



The point is that Pakistan has violated the UNSC resolutions on several occasions. 



> However, Pakistan remains committed to the underlying principle of Kashmiris determining their destiny through a plebiscite, whereas India does not.



True, unless they want a country of their own.



> Pakistan has not willfully refused to implement the resolutions, so no, Pakistan is not on that list.



How about the NPT?



> Perhaps I should have put better punctuation in there ... 'Pressure India to implement its commitments and pressure India to negotiate with Pakistan on how to arrive at the goal of plebiscite'.



Its time to assess the situation realistically. India will not allow any interference in Kashmir and its not like anyone's in a hurry to pressure us in the first place.



> *Nothing in the resolutions suggests 'defunctness' *based on whether an insurgency occurred or not, in fact, the resolutions remain valid until replaced by new resolutions or the resolution of the dispute between the concerned parties.



Ok. 

Kashmir, UN Security Council Resolution 80

_
"3. Requests the two Governments to take all necessary precautions to ensure that (heir agreements
regarding the cease-fire shall continue to be faithfully observed, and *"calls upon them to take all
possible measures to ensure the creation and maintenance of 'an atmosphere favourable to the
promotion of further negotiations;"*_

The insurgency has created an atmosphere that is unfavorable to the furthering of negotiations for the foreseeable future. 

We can go in circles forever.

It is wiser to address the strategic concerns of both parties rather than whip a dead horse. The resolutions are defunct. A new approach is needed. 



> Pakistan does have the moral high ground - we stand for giving the Kashmiris the right to self-determination per the UNSC resolutions and the commitments to them of plebiscite by India and Pakistan, whereas India stands for occupation of J&K and a refusal to let Kashmiris decide their future as India herself committed to.



What if the Kashmiris decide they want their own state? What does Pakistan stand for then? 

Like I said, instead of wasting time trying to up one each other, we should focus our efforts on looking for real, workable solutions. We will never see an end to the dispute until and unless everyone's concerns are addressed. 

Once again, focus on the issue. At this point it doesn't really matter as to who has the moral high ground or who did what, a situation exists and a *feasible *solution (i.e one that coherently addresses the concerns of all parties) must be found. 



> And you continue to point out why Pakistan has the high moral ground by continuing to willfully declare India's intent to violate its commitment to the UNSC and the Kashmiri people, the commitment of plebiscite.



Once again with the moral high ground. Let's make something clear here, *Pakistan does not support Kashmiri freedom*, it backs a resolution that forces them to accede to either India or Pakistan. 

What good is your so called 'moral high ground' if the majority of Kashmiris aren't interested in joining either nation? how is this decades old resolution relevant to our time?



> The excuse of a 'weak government' is a poor excuse. Even if one assumes the PA calls the shots instead of the GoP, why would the GoP not coordinate with the PA on negotiations with India and why would any proposal not amenable to the PA even be put forward? After all, as you pointed out, the PA as an institution backed Musharraf's peace efforts and proposals, which were some of the most significant for decades.



Musharraf was a military dictator, he had the power and the means to push through a resolution which is why the PA backed him in the first place. With him gone and Zardari's popularity in the gutter it is unlikely that the GoP will be able to do the same.



> India is doing little to indicate it is interested in resolving the dispute, as indicated by the following statement:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...an-insists-kashmir-territorial-dispute-5.html



False. 

"Indian Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon said He called for adopting &#8216;creative approaches&#8217; to settle issues with China and Pakistan". 

India wants to put an end to the dispute, you just have to come around to the idea. Lets see how things turn out in the next 4 years or so. 



> So what exactly are you threatening Pakistan with by suggesting 'nothing will change'?
> India appears to have indicated 'nothing will change' all on its own.



I'm no one to threaten anyone with anything. All I'm saying is that Pakistan will gain nothing by nurturing these so called 'freedom fighters'. Violence isn't going to help anyone, not us, not you and certainly not the Kashmiris.

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## Jackdaws

It's a simple enough question. I just want to know why invade an independent country and then ask for its independence?

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## Jackdaws

Oh but JuD is a charitable organization - is it not?!?! Never seen the Red Cross or Salvation Army talk about taking over a region by force.

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## karan.1970

Jackdaws said:


> Oh but JuD is a charitable organization - is it not?!?! Never seen the Red Cross or Salvation Army talk about taking over a region by force.



Dont be so uncharitable towards JuD. They distribute terror for free.. Don't they??


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> First, refusing to withdraw your citizens and tribesmen, then constitutionally incorporating Northern Areas leaving it in a limbo, then ceding territory to China, then blatantly violating the cease fire agreement in 1965.
> 
> Those holy UN resolutions became defunct in 1965. Thank Ayub for that.


Nonsense, as has been pointed out to you before.

UNSC resolution :http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc13aug48.htm



> TRUCE AGREEMENT
> 
> Simultaneously with the acceptance of the proposal for the immediate cessation of hostilities as outlined in Part I, both Governments accept the following principles as a basis for the formulation of a truce agreement, *the details of which shall be worked out in discussion between their Representatives and the Commission.*
> 
> 1. (l) As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State.
> 
> (2) The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavor to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting.


As the language of the resolution clearly indicates, the withdrawal of regular and irregular forces was contingent upon negotiations between India, Pakistan and the UN appointed commission, and rightly so, since the militarization of the conflict meant that one side could attempt to seize control in case of a unilateral, unconditional withdrawal by the other. 

Second, Pakistan has not incorporated Gligit-Baltistan into its constitution as Pakistani territory - that it did not do so in fact was the subject of a lot of criticizm from the people of the region. Pakista has therefore not tried to unilaterally change the status of the territory as India did by incorporating j&K into its constitution as an Indian State.

Third, yes, Pakistan did indeed try and spark a rebellion in J&K, but only because it had become increasingly clear that India had little interest in allowing the Kashmiris to determine their future through a plebiscite. So while the attempt to spark an insurgency can be termed a violation of the ceasefire agreement, it is far less serious than the Indian violation of the right to self-determination for the Kashmiris, which is the bed-rock principle of the UNSC resolutions.

The resolutions do not become 'defunct' with a ceasefire violation, they become defunct only when replaced with a new set of resolutions or a resolution of the dispute between the parties concerned.

And Nehru had indicated long before 1965 that India would violate its commitment to a plebiscite:


> On April 2, 1956, he himself had made statements at a press conference, which suggested that he had, indeed, ruled out a plebiscite. A question was put to him: "An inference has been drawn that you do not want now any plebiscite to be held in Kashmir. Is it correct?" Nehru replied: "Largely so; I shall explain myself. What I have said was that we have tried and discussed the question of plebiscite for six or seven years, but the preconditions have not been fulfilled. Meanwhile, other things have taken place, like the military aid etc., which have increased tremendously the difficulties of this problem. It is not that I am not willing to discuss this problem still further. But as a practical person I say this leads to a blind alley. We have, therefore, to discuss it from another point of view in regard to conditions that have arisen now and try to come to an agreement."
> 
> Offer of a settlement on the basis of the ceasefire line was the logical corollary. Nehru made this offer while addressing a public meeting in New Delhi on April 18, 1956. "I am willing to accept that the question of the part of Kashmir which is under you should be settled by demarcating the border on the basis of the present ceasefire line. We have no desire to take it by fighting."
> 
> Nehru's legacy in foreign affairs

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Solomon2 said:


> Yes. That's something Pakistan should be hammering at over and over in the U.N. and bilaterally. Instead we have either Pakistani plots for conquest (according to Ms. Bhutto) and/or this terrorism stuff. All of which serves to make Pakistan look bad and India look good internationally. (Furthermore, Pakistanis choose not to perceive that many Kashmiris don't want such violence.)


Pakistan has been 'hammering at the issue', at the UN and at any international forum it gets a chance to.

But the fact of the matter is that once India decided to violate her commitment to the UNSC resolutions there was nothing that could be done through the UN to force her to allow the Kashmiris to exercise their promised right to self-determination.

See Nehru's mindset through his own words and actions:

Nehru's legacy in foreign affairs

And your usage of the term 'terrorism' is only accurate and acceptable provided you also accept the fact that the US was founded by terrorists and on the basis of terrorism. Beyond that I will have to ask you not to flame and regurgitate dishonest propaganda on a Pakistani forum.


> Let's save the off-topic stuff for another thread.


Fair enough.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Spitfighter said:


> The point is that Pakistan has violated the UNSC resolutions on several occasions.


I have already indicated how UN resolutions did not in fact call for a unilateral withdrawal by Pakistan, and instead called for negotiations between India, Pakistan and the UN commission to determine the details of the withdrawal, so the Pakistani refusal to withdraw cannot be considered a violation of the resolutions since conditions on withdrawal acceptable to both sides were never arrived at.

The other point on which Pakistan is criticized is the attempt to spark a rebellion in Kashmir in 1965. As I pointed out in my response to Toxic, Nehru's comments and actions clearly indicate that it was India that had already determined that it would not seek to grant the Kashmiris the right to self determination, and would prefer the status quo of the LoC as a border. Pakistan's resort to covert means to instigate a rebellion was a response to the Indian violation of her commitment to the UNSC resolutions and the right to plebiscite for the Kashmiris.

_On April 2, 1956, he himself had made statements at a press conference, which suggested that he had, indeed, ruled out a plebiscite. A question was put to him: "An inference has been drawn that you do not want now any plebiscite to be held in Kashmir. Is it correct?" Nehru replied: "Largely so; I shall explain myself. What I have said was that we have tried and discussed the question of plebiscite for six or seven years, but the preconditions have not been fulfilled. Meanwhile, other things have taken place, like the military aid etc., which have increased tremendously the difficulties of this problem. It is not that I am not willing to discuss this problem still further. But as a practical person I say this leads to a blind alley. We have, therefore, to discuss it from another point of view in regard to conditions that have arisen now and try to come to an agreement."

Offer of a settlement on the basis of the ceasefire line was the logical corollary. Nehru made this offer while addressing a public meeting in New Delhi on April 18, 1956. "I am willing to accept that the question of the part of Kashmir which is under you should be settled by demarcating the border on the basis of the present ceasefire line. We have no desire to take it by fighting."_



> True, unless they want a country of their own.


I think Pakistan has moved towards the option of having an 'independent Kashmir' as one solution:



> "There has been no change in our foreign policy. We want an independent Kashmir. We want the Kashmir issue to be resolved in accordance with the wishes of the people," Basit told newsmen in Islamabad.
> 'Independent Kashmir' will ensure peace in South Asia: Pak - Express India


But again, even the old position of sticking to the UNSC resolutions that called for a choice between India and Pakistan, which India denies the kashmiris after years of promising it to them, places Pakistan on a higher moral ground than India. 

We are willing to implement a plebiscite and allow the Kashmiris to decide, India is not.


> How about the NPT?


What about it? Is Pakistan a signatory to the treaty?



> Its time to assess the situation realistically. India will not allow any interference in Kashmir and its not like anyone's in a hurry to pressure us in the first place.



Whether India allows or not is irrelevant, as should be obvious by now in terms of Pakistani influence in the State. And your comment does not indicate anything constructive in terms of moving forward.


> Ok.
> 
> Kashmir, UN Security Council Resolution 80
> 
> _
> "3. Requests the two Governments to take all necessary precautions to ensure that (heir agreements
> regarding the cease-fire shall continue to be faithfully observed, and *"calls upon them to take all
> possible measures to ensure the creation and maintenance of 'an atmosphere favourable to the
> promotion of further negotiations;"*_
> 
> The insurgency has created an atmosphere that is unfavorable to the furthering of negotiations for the foreseeable future.
> 
> We can go in circles forever.
> 
> It is wiser to address the strategic concerns of both parties rather than whip a dead horse. The resolutions are defunct. A new approach is needed.


Nonsense, as I pointed out through Nehru's comments earlier, India had already embarked on the road of 'not furthering negotiations' and trying to have the LoC turned into the IB before Operation Gibraltar.

What has created an 'unfavorable environment' is India's attitude of occupying and subjugating the Kashmiris and denying them the right to self-determination.

Troop withdrawals, whether bilateral, unilateral or negotiated, were technicalities in support of the overarching goal of conducting a plebiscite to resolve the dispute. Indian obstinacy and stonewalling over a few thousand troops here and there (while maintaining a numerical advantage over Pakistani troops) was quite clearly an attempt to destroy by any means possible the attempt to create conditions that would allow for a resolution of the dispute per the wishes of the Kashmiris.


> What if the Kashmiris decide they want their own state? What does Pakistan stand for then?


See Foreign Office comments above.



> Like I said, instead of wasting time trying to up one each other, we should focus our efforts on looking for real, workable solutions. We will never see an end to the dispute until and unless everyone's concerns are addressed.
> 
> Once again, focus on the issue. At this point it doesn't really matter as to who has the moral high ground or who did what, a situation exists and a *feasible *solution (i.e one that coherently addresses the concerns of all parties) must be found.


Workable solutions besides a single plebiscite in the entire state have been proposed, I still see no sign from the Indians of moving away from the status quo.


> Once again with the moral high ground. Let's make something clear here, *Pakistan does not support Kashmiri freedom*, it backs a resolution that forces them to accede to either India or Pakistan.


See foreign office comments above, and Pakistan's position of allowing the Kashmiris to exercise self-determination to chosee which nation they wish to be a part of is a far better and 'moral' position than the Indian position of militarily occupying and subjugating the Kashmiris, raping their women and torturing and massacring its residents for speaking out for their rights.



> What good is your so called 'moral high ground' if the majority of Kashmiris aren't interested in joining either nation? how is this decades old resolution relevant to our time?


The resolutions are relevant since they support a moral and representative solution to the resolution of the J&K dispute - allowing the people to exercise their right of self-determination to choose which nation they wish to be a part of.

The right to self-determination has not expiration date.


> Musharraf was a military dictator, he had the power and the means to push through a resolution which is why the PA backed him in the first place. With him gone and Zardari's popularity in the gutter it is unlikely that the GoP will be able to do the same.


Musharraf had power by virtue of being the COAS - any COAS would enjoy similar authority, though obviously not as much as Musharraf given he was also Chief Executive of the country. But my point is that the Indian pretext of not negotiation because they do not know who to negotiate with is flawed since the GoP will coordinate with the PA on sensitive issues like Kashmir, so any negotiations with the GoP will likely also be approved by the PA.

And Musharraf was backed by the PA, its commanders, in proposing some dramatically new solutions to resolving the dispute. That would indicate the PA is amenable to a resolution of the dispute and dialog with India.



> False.
> 
> "Indian Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon said He called for adopting creative approaches to settle issues with China and Pakistan".



Err .. not false - perhaps you should read the article again more carefully. His first quote:

_It is possible to discuss the dispute once it becomes clear that Pakistan is no more insisting on dividing or exchanging the territory, or talking about settling the status of the territory, Indian Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon said_



> India wants to put an end to the dispute, you just have to come around to the idea. Lets see how things turn out in the next 4 years or so.


On the contrary, Pakistan is the one looking to resolve the dispute, evidenced by the 'out of the box' proposals forwarded by Musharraf and the back channel dialog on them that almost led to a breakthrough.


> I'm no one to threaten anyone with anything. All I'm saying is that Pakistan will gain nothing by nurturing these so called 'freedom fighters'. Violence isn't going to help anyone, not us, not you and certainly not the Kashmiris.



*Shrug* Not that I support the idea of Pakistan extending insurgents fighting Indian occupation support again, but Pakistan will not lose anything by doing so either.

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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I have already indicated how UN resolutions did not in fact call for a unilateral withdrawal by Pakistan, and instead called for negotiations between India, Pakistan and the UN commission to determine the details of the withdrawal, so the Pakistani refusal to withdraw cannot be considered a violation of the resolutions since conditions on withdrawal acceptable to both sides were never arrived at.
> 
> The other point on which Pakistan is criticized is the attempt to spark a rebellion in Kashmir in 1965. As I pointed out in my response to Toxic, Nehru's comments and actions clearly indicate that it was India that had already determined that it would not seek to grant the Kashmiris the right to self determination, and would prefer the status quo of the LoC as a border. Pakistan's resort to covert means to instigate a rebellion was a response to the Indian violation of her commitment to the UNSC resolutions and the right to plebiscite for the Kashmiris.


So Agno, a couple of thoughts here..

1. If the negotiations that needed to be completed before the plebiscite never got completed, then how can the said plebiscite be done?

2. In 1965, if Pakistan deduced that India is not going to hold the plebiscite and tried to achieve that through alternate means and failed, then today Pakistan has no moral (and definitely not legal) ground to ask India to fulfil the so called committment. That died along with the attempt to incite the rebellion..
At the end of the day, as per you, we did something bad, you tried to avenge it by force and failed. Now you can not go back to square zero and start all over again with the plebiscite theory..

[/QUOTE]

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> So Agno, a couple of thoughts here..
> 
> 1. If the negotiations that needed to be completed before the plebiscite never got completed, then how can the said plebiscite be done?


The negotiations were primarily stalled on troop levels and the withdrawal conditions. The UN, through its commission, endorsed the proposal of 3000 troops on the Pakistani side and 18000 on the Indian side. Pakistan agreed, India did not.

The Indian excuse was that it wanted a full withdrawal of Pakistani forces - think about that without an Indian bias for a second. In a military conflict, why would any nation expect the other to unilaterally withdraw and leave open the possibility of the land being negotiated over to be occupied by the other side?

The core of the UN resolutions was that the dispute would be resolved through plebiscite, the demilitarization of the State was in order to allow the Kashmiris to vote in an atmosphere free of the threat of coercion and force from the military of either side. IMO India deliberately stonewalled these negotiations because she had no intent of conducting a plebiscite. 



> 2. In 1965, if Pakistan deduced that India is not going to hold the plebiscite and tried to achieve that through alternate means and failed, then today Pakistan has no moral (and definitely not legal) ground to ask India to fulfil the so called committment. That died along with the attempt to incite the rebellion..
> At the end of the day, as per you, we did something bad, you tried to avenge it by force and failed. Now you can not go back to square zero and start all over again with the plebiscite theory.


Pakistan did not have to 'deduce' anything - the comments you yourself posted of Menon and others (in the other thread), along with Nehru's comments above, quite clearly indicate that India had determined it would not hold a plebiscite. Pakistan's attempt to try and instigate a rebellion was in the face of existing Indian refusal to implement the resolutions, and an attempt to force India to do so.

So Pakistan does have moral ground to call for the implementation of the resolutions despite operation Gibraltar, it was the Indians that decided not to implement the resolutions years before Op. Gibraltar took place.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Jackdaws said:


> It's a simple enough question. I just want to know why invade an independent country and then ask for its independence?



The tribal invasion was in response to the brutalities of the dictator Maharajah.

There was an indigenous movement for freedom by local Kashmiris against the dictator, before the tribal invasion, that was brutally suppressed by the Maharajah. Entire villages were burnt down and men, women and children massacred by the Maharajah's forces in cracking down on the rebellion against his dictatorship.

Subsequently, tens of thousands of refugees poured out of Kashmir into Pakistan. This coincided with the partition massacres and news of entire trains full of massacred Muslims arriving from India. 

That is what led to the tribal force being organized to defeat the dictator Maharajah, and the subsequent low level Pakistani support for that tribal force.

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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The negotiations were primarily stalled on troop levels and the withdrawal conditions. The UN, through its commission, endorsed the proposal of 3000 troops on the Pakistani side and 18000 on the Indian side. Pakistan agreed, India did not.
> 
> The Indian excuse was that it wanted a full withdrawal of Pakistani forces - think about that without an Indian bias for a second. In a military conflict, why would any nation expect the other to unilaterally withdraw and leave open the possibility of the land being negotiated over to be occupied by the other side?
> 
> The core of the UN resolutions was that the dispute would be resolved through plebiscite, the demilitarization of the State was in order to allow the Kashmiris to vote in an atmosphere free of the threat of coercion and force from the military of either side. IMO India deliberately stonewalled these negotiations because she had no intent of conducting a plebiscite.
> .


Even then, at the end of the day, the negotiations never got completed and who stonewalled will be another he said, she said.. I am sure if someone googles it, he will find a contradicting indian stance on why negotiations failed because of pakistan...




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Pakistan did not have to 'deduce' anything - the comments you yourself posted of Menon and others (in the other thread), along with Nehru's comments above, quite clearly indicate that India had determined it would not hold a plebiscite. Pakistan's attempt to try and instigate a rebellion was in the face of existing Indian refusal to implement the resolutions, and an attempt to force India to do so.
> 
> So Pakistan does have moral ground to call for the implementation of the resolutions despite operation Gibraltar, it was the Indians that decided not to implement the resolutions years before Op. Gibraltar took place.



So the word deduce was used by me in the literal sense and not to imply that the deduction was incorrect. So when Pakistan itself came to terms with the fact that India is not going to hold a plebiscite and hence tried alternate means and failed, how can it then go back to the original point of plebiscite..

While Pakistan can argue about holding moral high ground for Op Gibralter (and I would agree to that arguement), it certainly does not hold any ground to go back and ask for the original solution of plebiscite after failing in Op Gib because by initiating Op G, Pakistan itself removed its support from the plebiscite solution (even if it was due to India's not implementing it to begin with)...


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Nonsense, as has been pointed out to you before.
> 
> UNSC resolution :http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc13aug48.htm
> 
> 
> As the language of the resolution clearly indicates, the withdrawal of regular and irregular forces was contingent upon negotiations between India, Pakistan and the UN appointed commission, and rightly so, since the militarization of the conflict meant that one side could attempt to seize control in case of a unilateral, unconditional withdrawal by the other.


The usual rubbish.

The violation that I spoke of was Pakistan&#8217;s refusal to remove its &#8216;citizens and tribesmen&#8217;. Demilitarization had nothing to do it. It is hilarious how everytime I raise this question, you quickly resort to how demilitarization was subject to negotiation. So once again. Why weren&#8217;t the Pakistani &#8216;citizens and tribesmen&#8217; withdrawn? 

Now if you argue that these &#8216;citizens and tribesmen&#8217; were part of &#8216;irregular forces&#8217; meant to fend any &#8216;attempt to seize control&#8217; of territory by India, you practically validate India&#8217;s refusal to the UN sanctioned troop strength. If India had accepted the UN proposal, then India would have been left with a measly 18,000 troops, excluding armour, while Pakistan would be have been able to retain 6,000 of its regular troops, excluding armour, and thousands of armed and semi-trained &#8216;citizens and tribesmen&#8217;, which also included PA regulars. By the end of 1950 the number had swelled to a mammoth &#8216;80,000&#8217;. 

Remember, India had insisted on retaining a higher number of military personnel together with armour because of the existence of this &#8216;irregular force&#8217; in the guise of &#8216;citizens and tribesmen&#8217;, called &#8216;Azad Kashmir Force&#8217;. 




> Second, Pakistan has not incorporated Gligit-Baltistan into its constitution as Pakistani territory - that it did not do so in fact was the subject of a lot of criticizm from the people of the region. Pakista has therefore not tried to unilaterally change the status of the territory as India did by incorporating j&K into its constitution as an Indian State.


I stand corrected. Northern Areas actually have no status. Neither is it part of Pakistan not is it part of &#8216;Azad Kashmir&#8217;. Limbo is however a correct observation.

J&K was incorporated into the constitution of India on the basis of Instrument of Accession. Section 6(1) of The India Act, and Section 7 of The Independence Act, made that valid. Pakistan did not have any writ to something of that sort.




> Third, yes, Pakistan did indeed try and spark a rebellion in J&K, but only because it had become increasingly clear that India had little interest in allowing the Kashmiris to determine their future through a plebiscite. So while the attempt to spark an insurgency can be termed a violation of the ceasefire agreement, it is far less serious than the Indian violation of the right to self-determination for the Kashmiris, which is the bed-rock principle of the UNSC resolutions.
> 
> [...]
> 
> And Nehru had indicated long before 1965 that India would violate its commitment to a plebiscite:


A lame and equally pathetic excuse.

There was no &#8216;violation of the right to self-determination for the Kashmiris&#8217;, because firstly, the resolutions do not provide a time limit for holding of plebiscite and secondly, the plebiscite itself was subject to conditions, one of which entirely depended on Pakistan, and Pakistan alone. Nehru&#8217;s ruling out of plebiscite was because the &#8216;pre conditions&#8217; weren&#8217;t fulfilled and because of &#8216;practical&#8217; impossibilities that had cropped up with the passage of time. His position was vetted by Gunar Jarring, the President of Security Council, in 1957 and again a year later by Dr Frank Graham, UNCIP representative. Nehru however hadn&#8217;t closed doors for settlement of Kashmir issue. 




> The resolutions do not become 'defunct' with a ceasefire violation, they become defunct only when replaced with a new set of resolutions or a resolution of the dispute between the parties concerned.


When a party to an agreement &#8211; which the Cease Fire Agreement was &#8211; willfully violates the terms and conditions of the said agreement, it no longer remains binding on the other party. The agreement becomes invalid. The Cease Fire agreement became invalid that way. Since all other subsequent resolutions were directly dependent on or connected to this Cease Fire agreement, those became defunct. Simple.

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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The negotiations were primarily stalled on troop levels and the withdrawal conditions. The UN, through its commission, endorsed the proposal of 3000 troops on the Pakistani side and 18000 on the Indian side. Pakistan agreed, India did not.


First, Pakistan was sanctioned 6,000 troops, without armour. Second, Pakistan agreed because it had a huge number of armed and trained non-regular force, which included PA regulars as well. India would have been left grossly outnumbered, even on a proportionate basis. 



> The Indian excuse was that it wanted a full withdrawal of Pakistani forces - think about that without an Indian bias for a second. In a military conflict, why would any nation expect the other to unilaterally withdraw and leave open the possibility of the land being negotiated over to be occupied by the other side?


India's demand was not out of line and was very much within the ambit of the Cease Fire agreement, which required Pakistan to withdraw its military (as well as citizens and tribesmen) completely from the occupied land. India demanded that after the demilitarization, 21,000 of her troops should be left in area, with armour, while Azad Kashmir would be left with a civil force of 4,000 troops of which 2,000 should be unarmed.

Pakistan on the other hand demanded that 4,000 troops shall remain on either side, but agreed a 'slight disparity in favour of India'.

As regards, why should another country unilaterally withdraw, well, because UN required that, and Pakistan had agreed in principle. The evacuated area was to be administered by a local authority under the auspices of the Commission.

A.3 of Part II of Truce Agreement:

_Pending a final solution the territory evacuated by the Pakistan troops will be administered by the local authorities under the surveillance of the Commission._

*Edited to Add:*



> The core of the UN resolutions was that the dispute would be resolved through plebiscite, the demilitarization of the State was in order to allow the Kashmiris to vote in an atmosphere free of the threat of coercion and force from the military of either side. IMO India deliberately stonewalled these negotiations because she had no intent of conducting a plebiscite.


The 'core' of the UN resolutions changed with passage of time. The 'core' of the Cease Fire agreement was to immediately cease hostilities. This is recorded in the explanatory notes to the resolution. That is why Part III of the Agreement merely mentions of plebiscite and doesn't expand on it. Later it shifted to holding of plebiscite. But Sir Dixon suggested that it was meaningless to discuss plebiscite before the pre-conditions to plebiscite were not dealt with, viz. withdrawals and de-militarization. Dr Frank Graham was appointed for this purpose, who submitted 5 reports on the issue of demilitarization. UN could never proceed beyond that. Plebiscite was never at the 'core' of any discussion.

Pakistan was equally responsible for 'stonewalling' the talks. Dr Graham in his 5th report notes:

_'It appears obvious that India under the two resolutions has some larger responsibilities on her side of the cease-fire line than the local authorities have in the evacuated territory on the other side of the cease-fire line.' (Para 19)_

Pakistan successfully scuttled that negotiation by quoting an incredibly low figure of 4,000 armed men on either side with 'slight disparity in favour of India', knowing well that India would disagree. When Pakistan finally agreed to the figure of 21,000 troops on Indian side and 6,000 troops on Pakistan's side, they had already raised and reinforced the Azad Kashmir force, which had become a mammoth size of '80,000' men.


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## Jackdaws

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The tribal invasion was in response to the brutalities of the dictator Maharajah.
> 
> There was an indigenous movement for freedom by local Kashmiris against the dictator, before the tribal invasion, that was brutally suppressed by the Maharajah. Entire villages were burnt down and men, women and children massacred by the Maharajah's forces in cracking down on the rebellion against his dictatorship.
> 
> Subsequently, tens of thousands of refugees poured out of Kashmir into Pakistan. This coincided with the partition massacres and news of entire trains full of massacred Muslims arriving from India.
> 
> That is what led to the tribal force being organized to defeat the dictator Maharajah, and the subsequent low level Pakistani support for that tribal force.



Sources for this claim of "entire villages burnt down and men, women and children massacred"??? or even for the refugees?

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## Jackdaws

LOL...posessions in 9/10ths of the law. You invaded Kashmir unilaterally - we did not. You launched Operation Grand Slam / Gibraltar to annexe Indian Kashmir - we did not try any such move w.r.t. Pakistani Kashmir. You ceded park of Kashmir to China, we did not.


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## Hammy007

what the F 

you just told the forumers the biggest indian joke, congrats  maybe its time for you to compete in the indian laughter challenge

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## Creder

rpraveenkum said:


> The Hindu : News / National : 'Stone-pelting turns into a &lsquo;lucrative business&rsquo; in J&K'
> 
> *'Stone-pelting turns into a lucrative business in J&K'*
> 
> 
> Police on Friday arrested a person, *alleged to be the kingpin of stone-pelters* in the Kashmir valley, and claimed to have found documents which suggest this has fast turned into a lucrative business for unemployed youths offering their service for a price.
> 
> Police had launched a massive drive against stone-pelters in the valley and their investigations led to a house in Bemina colony on the outskirts of the city after which they found *several documents suggesting his involvement in stone-pelting business* for nearly last two years, official sources said here on Friday.
> *
> The arrested person identified as Irshad Ahmed was interrogated by the police and they recovered dozens of SIM cards, threat letters, fake press identity cards, cheque books and well maintained account registers which state the expenditure for stone-pelting incidents in various parts of the valley.
> *
> The first register contained 294 names along with their photographs and mentions the details of money paid to them for their stone-pelting activities in the last one year in the downtown city, the sources said.
> 
> Police claimed to have recovered sketches of roads leading from Ganderbal to Leh, a route used by the Army personnel to maintain essential supplies to Ladakh division, they said.
> 
> *Business worth lakhs of rupees is estimated to be generated through this activity.
> *
> Separatist groups, especially those owing allegiance to Pakistan-terror outfit Hizbul Mujahideen and Lashker-e-Taiba, are alleged to have formed several groups comprising a minimum of dozen people, sources in the interrogation team said.
> 
> These groups are paid an amount ranging between Rs five to eight lakh, they said, adding a part of this money is handed over to another group known as initiators who pick up stones and start pelting on police and paramilitary forces.
> 
> The groups, which are alleged to have been receiving funds from a political party as well, have stationed their people in various localities and other districts of the valley, the sources said. This could be the reason for stone-pelting incidents occurring in a synchronised manner throughout the valley during agitations and protests, they said.



lol honestly, this puts Fox to shame


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## Kompromat

*Dedicated Thread for Pictures and Multimedia , depicting Indian occupation of J&K.

Mods Please make it Sticky.

Thanks / B.B  *

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*Coward C@nt*

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## Hyde



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## FreekiN



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good work keep the thread posted !


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## ejaz007

*Indias BSF admits to killing Kashmiri boy*

* BSF director general says prima facie evidence points to constable

SRINAGAR: Indias border guards said on Wednesday that one of their soldiers had shot dead an innocent boy in Kashmir last week, in a rare confession by troops after anti-India protests roiled the disputed region over the death.

The admission could ease a recent spike in tensions in Kashmir, where hundreds of people have been injured in pitched street battles between government forces and rock-pelting Muslim crowds protesting the killing of the boy. Those protests were threatening to morph into huge demonstrations against Indian rule in the disputed region, and embarrass New Delhi while it tried to reach out to moderate separatists to end a two-decade-long violent insurgency.

Inquiry: We have conducted an internal inquiry and prima facie evidence points to a constable, Border Security Force Director General PPS Sidhu told a news conference.

Exemplary punishment will be given to the person so that such crimes are not repeated in the future, Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK) Omar Abdullah said. 

In the past, government forces in Kashmir have been accused of killing civilians during protests and in staged gun battles by passing them off as separatist militants, charges security forces have mostly denied. Last year a judicial probe into the alleged rape and murder of two women, which also triggered massive protests across Kashmir, pointed to the involvement of police. But so far no police official has been identified or punished for the crime. agencies

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Should be hanged.Bloody savages


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## Hellfire

ejaz007 said:


> *Indias BSF admits to killing Kashmiri boy*
> 
> * BSF director general says prima facie evidence points to constable
> 
> SRINAGAR: Indias border guards said on Wednesday that one of their soldiers had shot dead an innocent boy in Kashmir last week, in a rare confession by troops after anti-India protests roiled the disputed region over the death.
> 
> The admission could ease a recent spike in tensions in Kashmir, where hundreds of people have been injured in pitched street battles between government forces and rock-pelting Muslim crowds protesting the killing of the boy. Those protests were threatening to morph into huge demonstrations against Indian rule in the disputed region, and embarrass New Delhi while it tried to reach out to moderate separatists to end a two-decade-long violent insurgency.
> 
> Inquiry: We have conducted an internal inquiry and prima facie evidence points to a constable, Border Security Force Director General PPS Sidhu told a news conference.
> 
> Exemplary punishment will be given to the person so that such crimes are not repeated in the future, Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK) Omar Abdullah said.
> 
> In the past, government forces in Kashmir have been accused of killing civilians during protests and in staged gun battles by passing them off as separatist militants, charges security forces have mostly denied. Last year a judicial probe into the alleged rape and murder of two women, which also triggered massive protests across Kashmir, pointed to the involvement of police. But so far no police official has been identified or punished for the crime. agencies
> 
> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan



any Indian news paper link for same? i seem to recall he got hit by a tear gas canister ..... maybe you have found something otherwise.


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## Jackdaws

mech-e said:


> what the F
> 
> you just told the forumers the biggest indian joke, congrats  maybe its time for you to compete in the indian laughter challenge



Ah - another Pakistani with no point to make covering it up by rolling on the floor laughing - nice.


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## dmt111

NONSENSE THREAD!!!


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## Hutchroy

Jackdaws said:


> One thing I wish to know is -
> 
> If Pakistan want Kashmir's independence - then why did they invade an independent Kashmir in the first place?
> 
> What do Pakistani history books teach? Do they teach that India invaded Kashmir first? Or do they teach that the ruler of Kashmir appealed to the Indian state after Pakistan had invaded and was fairly close to Srinagar?



Here are some excerpts. When you have time please read the full Article :

LRB · Tariq Ali · Bitter Chill of Winter

*Bitter Chill of Winter - Tariq Ali*



> In constitutional terms, Kashmir was a princely state, which meant that the Maharaja had the legal right to choose whether to accede to India or to Pakistan. In cases where the ruler did not share the faith of a large majority of his population it was assumed he would nevertheless go along with the wishes of the people. In Hyderabad and Junagadh  Hindu majority, Muslim royals  the rulers wobbled, but finally chose India. *Jinnah began to woo the Maharaja of Kashmir in the hope that he would decide in favour of Pakistan. This enraged Sheikh Abdullah.* Hari Singh vacillated.
> 
> *Kashmirs accession was still unresolved when midnight struck on 14 August 1947 and the Union Jack was lowered for the last time. Independence. There were now two armies in the subcontinent, each commanded by a British officer and with a very large proportion of British officers in the senior ranks. Lord Mountbatten, the Governor-General of India, and Field Marshal Auchinleck, the Joint Commander-in-Chief of both armies, made it clear to Jinnah that the use of force in Kashmir would not be tolerated. If it was attempted, Britain would withdraw every British officer from the Pakistan Army. Pakistan backed down. The Leagues traditional toadying to the British played a part in this decision, but there were other factors: Britain exercised a great deal of economic leverage; Mountbattens authority was resented but could not be ignored; Pakistans civil servants hadnt yet much self-confidence. And, unknown to his people, Jinnah was dying of tuberculosis. Besides, Pakistans first Prime Minister, Liaquat Ali Khan, an upper-class refugee from India, was not in any sense a rebel. He had worked too closely with the departing colonial power to want to thwart it. He had no feel for the politics of the regions that now comprised Pakistan and he didnt get on with the Muslim landlords who dominated the League in the Punjab. They wanted to run the country and would soon have him killed, but not just yet.
> 
> Meanwhile, something had to be done about Kashmir. There was unrest in the Army and even secular politicians felt that Kashmir, as a Muslim state, should form part of Pakistan. The Maharaja had begun to negotiate secretly with India and a desperate Jinnah decided to authorise a military operation in defiance of the British High Command. Pakistan would advance into Kashmir and seize Srinagar. Jinnah nominated a younger colleague from the Punjab, Sardar Shaukat Hyat Khan, to take charge of the operation.*
> 
> Shaukat had served as a captain during the war and spent several months in an Italian POW camp. On his return he had resigned his commission and joined the Muslim League. He was one of its more popular leaders in the Punjab, devoted to Jinnah, extremely hostile to Liaquat, whom he regarded as an arriviste, and keen to earn the title of Lion of the Punjab that was occasionally chanted in his honour at public meetings.* An effete and vainglorious figure, easily swayed by flattery, Shaukat was a chocolate-cream soldier. It was the unexpected death of his father, the elected Prime Minister of the old Punjab, that had brought him to prominence. He was not one of those people who rise above their own shortcomings in a crisis. I knew him well: he was my uncle.* To his credit, however, he argued against the use of irregulars and wanted the operation to be restricted to retired or serving military personnel. *He was overruled by the Prime Minister, who insisted that his loud-mouthed protégé, Khurshid Anwar, take part in the operation. Anwar, against all military advice, enlisted Pathan tribesman in the cause of jihad. *Two extremely able brigadiers, Akbar Khan and Sher Khan from the 6/13th Frontier Force Regiment (Piffers to old India hands), were selected to lead the assault.
> 
> *The invasion was fixed for 9 September 1947,* but it had to be delayed for two weeks: Khurshid Anwar had chosen the same day to get married and wanted to go on a brief honeymoon. In the meantime, thanks to Anwars lack of discretion, a senior Pakistani officer, Brigadier Iftikhar, heard what was going on and passed the news to General Messervy, the C-in-C of the Pakistan Army. He immediately informed Auchinleck, who passed the information to Mountbatten, who passed it to the new Indian Government. Using the planned invasion as a pretext, the Congress sent Nehrus deputy, Sardar Patel, to pressure the Maharaja into acceding to India, while Mountbatten ordered Indian Army units to prepare for an emergency airlift to Srinagar.
> 
> Back in Rawalpindi, Anwar had returned from his honeymoon and the invasion began. The key objective was to take Srinagar, occupy the airport and secure it against the Indians. Within a week the Maharajas army had collapsed. Hari Singh fled to his palace in Jammu.* The 11th Sikh Regiment of the Indian Army had by now reached Srinagar, but was desperately waiting for reinforcements and didnt enter the town. The Pathan tribesman under Khurshid Anwars command halted after reaching Baramulla, only an hours bus ride from Srinagar, and refused to go any further. Here they embarked on a three-day binge, looting houses, assaulting Muslims and Hindus alike, raping men and women and stealing money from the Kashmir Treasury. The local cinema was transformed into a rape centre; a group of Pathans invaded St Josephs Convent, where they raped and killed four nuns, including the Mother Superior, and shot dead a European couple sheltering there. News of the atrocities spread, turning large numbers of Kashmiris against their would-be liberators. When they finally reached Srinagar, the Pathans were so intent on pillaging the shops and bazaars that they overlooked the airport, already occupied by the Sikhs.*
> 
> The Maharaja meanwhile signed the accession papers in favour of India and demanded help to repel the invasion. India airlifted troops and began to drive the Pakistanis back. Sporadic fighting continued until India appealed to the UN Security Council, which organised a ceasefire and a Line of Control (LOC) demarcating Indian and Pakistan-held territory.[*] Kashmir, too, was now partitioned. The leaders of the Kashmir Muslim Conference shifted to Muzaffarabad in Azad Kashmir, leaving Sheikh Abdullah in control of the valley itself.

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## mrwarrior006

^^^^OMG PAKISTANIS REALLY DID THIS


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## Aslan

..........


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## Jackdaws

They delayed an invasion because one of them had to go on a honeymoon? Jeez. Well, but what's the story about the Maharaja's atrocities?


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## Valiant_Soul

Hutchroy said:


> Here are some excerpts. When you have time please read the full Article :
> 
> LRB · Tariq Ali · Bitter Chill of Winter
> 
> *Bitter Chill of Winter - Tariq Ali*



An echt and comprehensive description of what happened, thanks! Should give some insights to the Pakistani members here.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*A few of the pictures that were quite obviously not from Kashmir have been removed. Please ensure the images you post are correct.*

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Great work Black Blood ..

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## Valiant_Soul

Why should we go in circles here? One member here said that India cannot afford the so-called occupation of Kashmir for long, it would be made too costly. Well, if Pakistan is thinking in terms of money, then India has only emerged extremely sound economically in the last 60 years and going by the current rate of growth India will have a completely different picture by the next decade. And if costly means denting the spirit of the nation by the use of cowardly acts of terrorism then that is an even more foolish idea.

So just what does ordinary citizens of Pakistan looking at? A meaningless and totally unjustified pursuit and interests of the "power grabbers" in their nation. At the most, they can expect that LoC is turned into international border. There is no third settlement that India will ever agree upon. They are deliberately putting their leg in the mud while there are green pasture behind.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> The usual rubbish.
> 
> The violation that I spoke of was Pakistan&#8217;s refusal to remove its &#8216;citizens and tribesmen&#8217;. Demilitarization had nothing to do it. It is hilarious how everytime I raise this question, you quickly resort to how demilitarization was subject to negotiation. So once again. Why weren&#8217;t the Pakistani &#8216;citizens and tribesmen&#8217; withdrawn?


Because you didn't read the resolution properly. Here it is again:

UNSC resolution :http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc13aug48.htm



> TRUCE AGREEMENT
> 
> Simultaneously with the acceptance of the proposal for the immediate cessation of hostilities as outlined in Part I, both Governments accept the following principles as a basis for the formulation of a truce agreement, *the details of which shall be worked out in discussion between their Representatives and the Commission.*


So what principles are being talked about, that both governments accept and the details of which are to be worked out in discussion between their representatives and the UN commission? The following, which includes both regular troops *and* 'tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting'.


> 1. (l) *As the presence of troops of Pakistan *in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State.
> 
> (2) The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavor to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of *tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting.*





> Now if you argue that these &#8216;citizens and tribesmen&#8217; were part of &#8216;irregular forces&#8217; meant to fend any &#8216;attempt to seize control&#8217; of territory by India, you practically validate India&#8217;s refusal to the UN sanctioned troop strength. If India had accepted the UN proposal, then India would have been left with a measly 18,000 troops, excluding armour, while Pakistan would be have been able to retain 6,000 of its regular troops, excluding armour, and thousands of armed and semi-trained &#8216;citizens and tribesmen&#8217;, which also included PA regulars. By the end of 1950 the number had swelled to a mammoth &#8216;80,000&#8217;.
> 
> Remember, India had insisted on retaining a higher number of military personnel together with armour because of the existence of this &#8216;irregular force&#8217; in the guise of &#8216;citizens and tribesmen&#8217;, called &#8216;Azad Kashmir Force&#8217;.


Strawman - at no point have I argued that the irregular forces should have stayed or would have stayed and in fact the same resolution points out that 'For the purpose of these proposals "forces under their control shall be considered to include all forces, organized and unorganized, fighting or participating in hostilities on their respective sides'. 

So your argument that Pakistan would have been able to retain 6,000 regular troops along with any number of irregular troops compared to 18,000 is clearly inaccurate since the UNSC resolutions clearly recognize and identify the problem of irregular forces and their impact on the situation.



> I stand corrected. Northern Areas actually have no status. Neither is it part of Pakistan not is it part of &#8216;Azad Kashmir&#8217;. Limbo is however a correct observation.


Until the dispute is resolved one way or the other, that is unfortunately the status of disputed territories.

But so long as the locals can establish representative government and administer most of their affairs themselves, it should mitigate the impact. I do fault successive GoP's for not doing this far earlier however, as was done with Azad Kashmir.


> J&K was incorporated into the constitution of India on the basis of Instrument of Accession. Section 6(1) of The India Act, and Section 7 of The Independence Act, made that valid. Pakistan did not have any writ to something of that sort.


You incorporated it based on your own laws - it is the equivalent of suggesting that Pakistan come up with a constitutional amendment that allows us to incorporate G-B because a certain percentage of the population participated in local elections. However, internationally, such a unilateral annexation or integration has no basis, as suggested in the UNSC resolutions declaring the territory disputed and pointing to a plebiscite as resolution.




> A lame and equally pathetic excuse.
> 
> There was no &#8216;violation of the right to self-determination for the Kashmiris&#8217;, because firstly, the resolutions do not provide a time limit for holding of plebiscite and secondly, the plebiscite itself was subject to conditions, one of which entirely depended on Pakistan, and Pakistan alone. Nehru&#8217;s ruling out of plebiscite was because the &#8216;pre conditions&#8217; weren&#8217;t fulfilled and because of &#8216;practical&#8217; impossibilities that had cropped up with the passage of time. His position was vetted by Gunar Jarring, the President of Security Council, in 1957 and again a year later by Dr Frank Graham, UNCIP representative. Nehru however hadn&#8217;t closed doors for settlement of Kashmir issue.


What is lame and pathetic about it? Are you now going to deny the statements of Nehru and other GoI officials clearly stating a rejection of the need for plebiscite and an adoption of the status quo as a resolution of the dispute?

Here are (thanks to Karan) some of the quotes of other Indian officials on the issue:



> *V.K. Menon UN Security Council (763 Meeting, 23 January, 1957):*
> With Pakistan's intransigence, and passage of time, the offer lapsed and was overtaken by events
> 
> _
> "I wish to make it clear on behalf of my Government that under no circumstances can we agree to the holding of a plebiscite in Kashmir"_
> 
> *Representative of India (M.C. Chagla) UN Security Council (1088 meeting, 5 February 1964):*
> 
> _
> "Any plebiscite today would by definition amount to questioning the integrity of India. It would raise the issue of secession - an issue on which even the United States fought a civil war not so very long ago. We cannot and will not tolerate a second partition of India on religious grounds"_


So it is evident that India had made clear long before Operation Gibralter that it would not honor its commitment to the UNSC resolutions. And despite Indian protestations, it should be clear now that there was no intransigence on the part of Pakistan or violation of any conditions, whether related to the withdrawal of conventional forces or irregular forces.



> When a party to an agreement &#8211; which the Cease Fire Agreement was &#8211; willfully violates the terms and conditions of the said agreement, it no longer remains binding on the other party. The agreement becomes invalid. The Cease Fire agreement became invalid that way. Since all other subsequent resolutions were directly dependent on or connected to this Cease Fire agreement, those became defunct. Simple.


No terms and conditions were violated before India chose to unilaterally violate its commitment to the UNSC resolutions, as is evident from the statements of the Indian leaders and officials.

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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Because you didn't read the resolution properly. Here it is again:
> 
> UNSC resolution :http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc13aug48.htm
> 
> 
> So what principles are being talked about, that both governments accept and the details of which are to be worked out in discussion between their representatives and the UN commission? The following, which includes both regular troops *and* 'tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting'.


I have read the resolutions all right. 

What possible negotiations do you suppose Pakistan would have done with India, with regard to complete withdrawal of its citizen and tribesmen? Did Pakistan at all negotiate with India on this particular issue?

During the time Dr Frank Graham was preparing his 3rd report, Pakistan reported, falsely, that all the citizens and tribesmen were withdrawn. The question then is, why did Pakistan even make that claim without first negotiating with India, if the ambit of negotiations did include citizens and tribesmen.




> Strawman - at no point have I argued that the irregular forces should have stayed or would have stayed and in fact the same resolution points out that 'For the purpose of these proposals "forces under their control shall be considered to include all forces, organized and unorganized, fighting or participating in hostilities on their respective sides'.
> 
> So your argument that Pakistan would have been able to retain 6,000 regular troops along with any number of irregular troops compared to 18,000 is clearly inaccurate since the UNSC resolutions clearly recognize and identify the problem of irregular forces and their impact on the situation.


Firstly, I havent accused you of making that argument. The para that you have quoted was connected to the first one and in isolation it makes no sense. When asked about citizens and tribesmen, you have clearly claimed in your previous post, that negotiation was meant for regular and irregular forces. That would imply, that you were considering the citizens and tribesmen as irregular forces.


> As the language of the resolution clearly indicates, the withdrawal of regular and irregular forces was contingent upon negotiations between India, Pakistan and the UN appointed commission, and rightly so, since the militarization of the conflict meant that one side could attempt to seize control in case of a unilateral, unconditional withdrawal by the other.


Secondly, the figures of 18,000 and 6,000 for India and Pakistan, respectively, didnt include the irregular force. It was about their own troops. Since you have chosen to read that para in isolation you got the wrong impression. 

In any case, disbanding of Azad Kashmir force was one of the major obstacles and is reported as such by Dr Frank Graham in his 3rd Report. Pakistan had adamantly refused to disband Azad Kashmir force and instead augmented it. That was one of the reasons why India wanted a larger troop strength. Additionally, the presence of 'citizens and tribesmen' always retained the threat of further infiltration.



> You incorporated it based on your own laws - it is the equivalent of suggesting that Pakistan come up with a constitutional amendment that allows us to incorporate G-B because a certain percentage of the population participated in local elections. However, internationally, such a unilateral annexation or integration has no basis, as suggested in the UNSC resolutions declaring the territory disputed and pointing to a plebiscite as resolution.


Not entirely true. Section 6(1) of The India Act, 1935 states:

_A State shall be deemed to have acceded to the Federation if His Majesty has signified his acceptance of an Instrument of Accession executed by the Ruler thereof_

State here refers to the Princely State. Federation here refers to British India. However u/s 7 of The Indian Independence Act, 1947, this section applied to both India and Pakistan.



> What is lame and pathetic about it? Are you now going to deny the statements of Nehru and other GoI officials clearly stating a rejection of the need for plebiscite and an adoption of the status quo as a resolution of the dispute?
> 
> Here are (thanks to Karan) some of the quotes of other Indian officials on the issue:
> 
> So it is evident that India had made clear long before Operation Gibralter that it would not honor its commitment to the UNSC resolutions. And despite Indian protestations, it should be clear now that there was no intransigence on the part of Pakistan or violation of any conditions, whether related to the withdrawal of conventional forces or irregular forces.


Nehru didnt mention of any status quo anywhere. His rejection of plebiscite was because of unfulfilled pre-conditions and practical inability to hold such plebiscite. Gunnar Jarring and Frank Graham, both admitted that the passage of time made the implementation of the resolutions progressively difficult. 

Irony is that it is precisely because of Pakistans intransigence that pre-conditions couldnt be fulfilled.



> No terms and conditions were violated before India chose to unilaterally violate its commitment to the UNSC resolutions, as is evident from the statements of the Indian leaders and officials.



If the performance of an agreement is subject to pre-conditions, and the same agreement couldnt be performed due to non fulfillment of those pre-conditions then it is not a violation of agreement. Thats ABC of agreement/contract laws.


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## Kompromat

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *A few of the pictures that were quite obviously not from Kashmir have been removed. Please ensure the images you post are correct.*



Sir i am trying my level best to post the most relevant Images but if there is any Mistake please stick to this thread and Correct it.

Thanks:


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## Kompromat

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Great work Black Blood ..



Thank you Sir


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## toxic_pus

Deleted: No longer required since the original post to which this was a response, was deleted by the OP.


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## Kompromat

Irrelevant image would be deleted , its my fault.


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## pkd

*Story of fallen tulips and tarnished roses*

:. Kashmirs occupation: Story of fallen tulips and tarnished roses 




Kashmir Watch, Feb 12

Shazeb Kashmiri

Kashmir continues to see its parents grievously wounded, and its children eternally orphaned. The garden of our freedom has been drenched with the blood of our sons and the honour of daughters - -- -our fallen tulips and tarnished roses.

Bharats illegitimate occupation continues to be a curse for Kashmir. We now have three generations of our youths decimated - - hundreds of thousands dead, four times as many injured, and a whole nation traumatized. Kashmir continues to see its parents grievously wounded, its children eternally orphaned, and the psyche of the entire peoples indelibly troubled. The Kashmiris continue to count their fallen, their injured, their tortured, their disappeared, and their raped. They continue to see their blooming tulips- - Wamiqs and Zahids - - smothered prematurely. They continue to see the violators of their roses- - Nelofer Jans and Asiya Jans- - go unpunished.

Kashmirs prolonged agony is a saga of thousands of rapes, hundreds of disappearances, and countless extrajudicial killings. It is a saga of torture of individuals and collective punishments for the entire population through deceitful curfews and crippling restrictions. It is the saga of an entire population circumscribed by concertina wires.

It is a saga of highway blockades and communal onslaughts. It is a saga of terrorized Kashmiri students and businessmen in India. It is a saga of the military and police brutalities. It is a saga of treacherous fifth columnists of Kuka Parreys and Muma Kannas shame. It is a saga of electronic media clamp downs, and murderous assaults on the print journos. It is a saga of blinkered patriotism of the Indian media.

This entire despicable display of the Indias state sponsored terrorism against the rebellious population has occurred on the watches of the likes of the deceitful Abdullahs, the treacherous Bukshis and the serpentine Muftis. Kashmir has been converted into a fortress on directions of the brutal Jagmohans, shameless Saxenas and communal Sinhas. All this barbarity to Kashmiris has happened under the watchful eyes of our own lowly politicians- - the self-serving agents of NC, PDP and Congress.

And all this misfortune has been heaped upon Kashmiris with the singular aim of subduing them into submission, in the purported need of maintaining the territorial integrity of Bharat. It is becoming increasingly clear the Indian intelligentsia in the recent months, that Bharat has not won Kashmir, and it cannot retain it for long.

Although, India has worked hard to dehumanize and terrorize Kashmiris, it has effectively alienated even those few in Kashmir who are least interested in freedom. It has made no inroads into the hearts and minds of the Kashmiris. Since the Indians have not learned appropriate lessons from their Jalianwala Bagh, they are doomed to witness the consequences of this historical omission- - slowly but surely.

They have chosen to ignore the admonition of one of their foxiest- - Jawahar Lal Nehru, who on June 26, 1952 said in the Lok Sabha:  it is the people of Kashmir who must decide. And I say with all respect to our Constitution that it just does not matter what your Constitution says; if the people of Kashmir do not want it, it will not go there.The alternative is compulsion and coercion... the decision... ultimately lies with[the] people in Kashmir, notwith [the Indian] Parliament.

Continuing to churn out his wisdom, this Machiavellian architect of Kashmirs ongoing tragedy observed: Do not think you are dealing with a part of U.P., Bihar or Gujarat. You are dealing with an area, historically and geographically, and in all manner of things [different] We have to be men of vision and there has to be broad minded acceptance of facts [that] real integration comes of the mind and the heart and not of some clause which you may impose on other people.

Did you note the words other people? Nehru had quite rightly figured the ultimate fate of illegitimate occupation of Kashmir. More than sixty years on, India has not won the Kashmiris hearts, nor have the Kashmiris changed their minds. The Kashmiris continue to remain the other people for India. Even to Nehru, Kashmir was not India.

The delusional political, bureaucratic and military Babus in New Delhi, and their equally dishonest representatives in Kashmir, continue to believe that India can retain Kashmir at gun point. And, the Kashmiris continue to resist- - with their life, limb and honour- - the occupiers ill-conceived temptation.

Who will ultimately prevail is not debatable: The garden of our freedom has been watered by the blood of our sons and the honour of our daughters. This unfortunately mounting toll of our fallen tulips and tarnished roses will not go waste. No self-respecting people will allow the martyrs blood go waste.

Both, the time-honoured verdicts of history, as well as the long ignored Nehruvian realization, continue to be valid for Kashmir: No people can be occupied against their wishes for long, no matter what the strength or the nature of the onslaught by the occupier.

Tags: Kashmir conflict, Kashmir Human rights, India human rights, Indian army


Kashmir Watch :: In-depth coverage on Kashmir conflict


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

I came across this video after a segment on the BBC a few months ago in which they looked at the impact of media and technology in Kashmir. The people they interviewed said that this song by Chris de Brugh was one of the more popular songs in the valley and served as a sort of 'anthem' for the freedom movement.

The images of Kashmiri oppression and occupation by India in this video are set to the Chris de Burgh soundtrack.

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## DavyJones

@AM - the video is not available.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

DavyJones said:


> @AM - the video is not available.



Maybe its blocked in India? 

I just watched it.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> I have read the resolutions all right.


Then it should be obvious that the resolutions clearly call for negotiations on the withdrawal of conventional forces and irregular forces, and that therefore debunks the Indian argument that Pakistan was in violation of the resolutions by not immediately withdrawing irregular forces. 


> What possible negotiations do you suppose Pakistan would have done with India, with regard to complete withdrawal of its citizen and tribesmen? Did Pakistan at all negotiate with India on this particular issue?
> 
> During the time Dr Frank Graham was preparing his 3rd report, Pakistan reported, falsely, that all the citizens and tribesmen were withdrawn. The question then is, why did Pakistan even make that claim without first negotiating with India, if the ambit of negotiations did include citizens and tribesmen.


Irrelevant - whether or not Pakistan negotiated with India over the withdrawal of its 'citizens and tribesmen' or its conventional forces, before withdrawing them, does not change the fact that Pakistan was under no obligation to withdraw them unless it was satisfied through the tripartite negotiations.



> Firstly, I havent accused you of making that argument. The para that you have quoted was connected to the first one and in isolation it makes no sense. When asked about citizens and tribesmen, you have clearly claimed in your previous post, that negotiation was meant for regular and irregular forces. That would imply, that you were considering the citizens and tribesmen as irregular forces.
> 
> Secondly, the figures of 18,000 and 6,000 for India and Pakistan, respectively, didnt include the irregular force. It was about their own troops. Since you have chosen to read that para in isolation you got the wrong impression.
> 
> In any case, disbanding of Azad Kashmir force was one of the major obstacles and is reported as such by Dr Frank Graham in his 3rd Report. Pakistan had adamantly refused to disband Azad Kashmir force and instead augmented it. That was one of the reasons why India wanted a larger troop strength. Additionally, the presence of 'citizens and tribesmen' always retained the threat of further infiltration.


I'll have to go through Graham's report and others to see what was said, but this is a tangential argument to the one of whether Pakistan was in violation of the UNSC resolutions by not withdrawing its 'citizens and tribesmen'. 

Your points here apply in the issue of which side was 'intransigent' in the negotiations towards demilitarization, they do not change the fact that Pakistan did not have to withdraw anyone unless satisfied through the negotiations.



> Nehru didnt mention of any status quo anywhere.


He did right here;
_
Offer of a settlement on the basis of the ceasefire line was the logical corollary. Nehru made this offer while addressing a public meeting in New Delhi on April 18, 1956. "I am willing to accept that the question of the part of Kashmir which is under you should be settled by demarcating the border on the basis of the present ceasefire line. We have no desire to take it by fighting."_


> His rejection of plebiscite was because of unfulfilled pre-conditions and practical inability to hold such plebiscite. Gunnar Jarring and Frank Graham, both admitted that the passage of time made the implementation of the resolutions progressively difficult.
> 
> Irony is that it is precisely because of Pakistans intransigence that pre-conditions couldnt be fulfilled.


Again, this is different from arguing that Pakistan 'violated the resolutions', you are now arguing that the Indian decision to unilaterally violate her commitment to the resolutions was on the basis of a perception of Pakistani intransigence. Intransigence does not equate violation, and would be the subject of a separate discussion. Lets settle the 'violation' question first, and IMO it has been clearly shown that Pakistan committed no violation by not withdrawing either conventional or irregular forces.


> If the performance of an agreement is subject to pre-conditions, and the same agreement couldnt be performed due to non fulfillment of those pre-conditions then it is not a violation of agreement. Thats ABC of agreement/contract laws.


But there was no time-line and no mechanism within the resolutions that addressed the issue of 'non performance' due to the passage of time. This is a subjective argument on India's part that the resolutions became 'unimplementable' due to the passage of time. If 'non-fulfillment of pre-conditions' within an arbitrary time-frame nullified the agreement as India argued, and the UN commission was in agreement, then the way to render the agreement void was to have the UNSC issue a resolution declaring that.

As it is you chose to apply your own interpretation based on a self-created arbitrary time-line and unilaterally violate the Indian commitment to the resolutions.

P.S: Will respond to the India Act question later.

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## Halaku Khan

pkd said:


> They continue to see the violators of their roses- - Nelofer Jans and Asiya Jans- - go unpunished.



This illustrates the basic problem with the Kashmir "freedom" movement - it has been established that the two young ladies mentioned drowned by accident.

The "leaders" are admittedly on Pakistani payroll, and the whole movement is based on fraud and dishonesty.

That is why it is not getting any traction amongst the people.


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## Atheist

Lol and people here still believe that India gives a damn about these resolutions - How noobish.... India will continue the status quo till it turns into a permanent border... neither Pakistan nor the Jihadis groups can do anything about it - let alone grab it by force..and we always have our all time ally Russia to veto any resolution against India especially in terms of Kashmir - So happy bashing as long as you can


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Then it should be obvious that the resolutions clearly call for negotiations on the withdrawal of conventional forces and irregular forces, and that therefore debunks the Indian argument that Pakistan was in violation of the resolutions by not immediately withdrawing irregular forces.


For the umpteenth time you have failed to make the distinction between 'regular/irregular forces' and the 'citizens and tribesmen'. I am beginning to feel that it is deliberate. Its the 'citizens and tribesmen' that I am talking about. Remember?



> Irrelevant - whether or not Pakistan negotiated with India over the withdrawal of its 'citizens and tribesmen' or its conventional forces, before withdrawing them, does not change the fact that Pakistan was under no obligation to withdraw them unless it was satisfied through the tripartite negotiations.


It is relevant because it creates something called 'precedence'. Pakistan's claim of withdrawal of 'citizens and tribesmen' without negotiation with India proves that Pakistan was 'satisfied' and more than happy with not negotiating with India, with regard to these 'citizens and tribesmen'. 

The question therefore is, if Pakistan could claim to have withdrawn its 'citizens and tribesmen' without negotiating with India, what stopped Pakistan from actually withdrawing its 'citizens and tribesmen'?




> Your points here apply in the issue of which side was 'intransigent' in the negotiations towards demilitarization, they do not change the fact that Pakistan did not have to withdraw anyone unless satisfied through the negotiations.


By making a claim to have withdrawn its 'citizens and tribesmen', Pakistan proved their 'satisfaction' without any negotiation regarding its 'citizens and tribesmen'.



> He did right here;
> _
> Offer of a settlement on the basis of the ceasefire line was the logical corollary. Nehru made this offer while addressing a public meeting in New Delhi on April 18, 1956. "I am willing to accept that the question of the part of Kashmir which is under you should be settled by demarcating the border on the basis of the present ceasefire line. We have no desire to take it by fighting."_


I don't see any status quo. On the other hand I see a pragmatic approach to solve the imbroglio. Contrary to what Pakistanis believe, plebiscite was not the objective, but a means to solve the Kashmir 'dispute'. 



> Again, this is different from arguing that Pakistan 'violated the resolutions', you are now arguing that the Indian decision to unilaterally violate her commitment to the resolutions was on the basis of a perception of Pakistani intransigence. Intransigence does not equate violation, and would be the subject of a separate discussion.


Self-evident facts are not perception. It is however funny how 'intransigence does not equate violation' and yet, India not holding plebiscite primarily, for non-fulfillment of preconditions, and generally, due to impracticability of the plebiscite, is 'violation'.



> Lets settle the 'violation' question first, and IMO it has been clearly shown that Pakistan committed no violation by not withdrawing either conventional or irregular forces.


Similarly, it has been clearly shown that India committed no violation by not holding the plebiscite since the preconditions for the plebiscite were not fulfilled.



> But there was no time-line and no mechanism within the resolutions that addressed the issue of 'non performance' due to the passage of time. This is a subjective argument on India's part that the resolutions became 'unimplementable' due to the passage of time. If 'non-fulfillment of pre-conditions' within an arbitrary time-frame nullified the agreement as India argued, and the UN commission was in agreement, then the way to render the agreement void was to have the UNSC issue a resolution declaring that.
> 
> As it is you chose to apply your own interpretation based on a self-created arbitrary time-line and unilaterally violate the Indian commitment to the resolutions.


Firstly, the 'time-line' argument doesn't fly. By the end of '53, it was evident that neither Pakistan nor India was willing to budge in a way that would be acceptable to the other party. The negotiations had come to a deadlock. I am assuming that you have resorted to 'time-line' argument out of ignorance of what the situation was then. I will let it pass.

Secondly, the UN can't just _suo motu_ nullify an agreement. Both the parties had to agree. Again, basics of agreement law.

One more thing. Political rhetoric is one thing and legal argument is another. Your accusation of 'unilaterally violating' UN resolutions is what it is - just rhetoric of desperation. 



> I'll have to go through Graham's report and others to see what was said....
> 
> P.S: Will respond to the India Act question later.


No problem.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Here are (thanks to Karan) some of the quotes of other Indian officials on the issue:
> 
> 
> So it is evident that India had made clear long before Operation Gibralter that it would not honor its commitment to the UNSC resolutions. And despite Indian protestations, it should be clear now that there was no intransigence on the part of Pakistan or violation of any conditions, whether related to the withdrawal of conventional forces or irregular forces.
> 
> 
> No terms and conditions were violated before India chose to unilaterally violate its commitment to the UNSC resolutions, as is evident from the statements of the Indian leaders and officials.



Sorry to jump in but had to clarify the text taken from my post. What you have here is not the complete chronology of comments as I had put in the previous post. Attached below. If you notice the very first comment of 1957 blames Pakistan for not meeting its obligations as per the agreement leading to wrecking the implementation. So your comment of these posts *proving that India's leaders had decided to not honor the commitment despite no transgression on part of Pakistan *is not correct..



karan.1970 said:


> "India had accepted these resolutions, subject to assurances, (mentioned in para 6) and in the hope of having the matter resolved quickly. Pakistan, however, wrecked the implementation of the resolutions at that time by not fulfilling the preconditions. If an offer is made and it is not accepted at the time it is made, it cannot be held for generations over the heads of those who made it".
> 
> 
> *V.K. Menon * UN Security Council (763 Meeting, 23 January, 1957):
> With Pakistan's intransigence, and passage of time, the offer lapsed and was overtaken by events
> 
> 
> "I wish to make it clear on behalf of my Government that under no circumstances can we agree to the holding of a plebiscite in Kashmir"
> 
> *representative of India (M.C. Chagla) * UN Security Council (1088 meeting, 5 February 1964):
> 
> 
> "Any plebiscite today would by definition amount to questioning the integrity of India. It would raise the issue of secession - an issue on which even the United States fought a civil war not so very long ago. We cannot and will not tolerate a second partition of India on religious grounds"
> 
> *Lal Bahadur Shastri *New York, stated on March 31, 1966


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## Solomon2

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Pakistan has been 'hammering at the issue', at the UN and at any international forum it gets a chance to. But -


This "hammering" is mere tapping compared to terrorism, nuclear confrontation, and border warfare. If you evaluate the feelers from the GoI, you may find that progress on Kashmir is indeed possible - but it can't happen while these three issues dominate India-Pakistan relations. And why not at least suspend them for a while? After all, they are merely _tactics_ for achieving the goal of liberating Kashmir. With the right governments at the helms of India and Pakistan, diplomacy may be more effective.



> your usage of the term 'terrorism' is only accurate and acceptable provided you also accept the fact that the US was founded by terrorists and on the basis of terrorism.


I concede nothing. Don't you think discussion about the U.S. belongs in other threads?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> For the umpteenth time you have failed to make the distinction between 'regular/irregular forces' and the 'citizens and tribesmen'. I am beginning to feel that it is deliberate. Its the 'citizens and tribesmen' that I am talking about. Remember?


For the umpteenth time, I am not the one making the distinction, the language of the UNSC resolutions should be self explanatory - again:


> 1. (l) As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State.
> 
> (2) The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavor to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting.


The resolutions clearly refer to 'Citizens (Pakistani nationals) and Tribesmen', and their withdrawal is linked to negotiations between India, Pakistan and the UN commission. End of story. 



> It is relevant because it creates something called 'precedence'. Pakistan's claim of withdrawal of 'citizens and tribesmen' without negotiation with India proves that Pakistan was 'satisfied' and more than happy with not negotiating with India, with regard to these 'citizens and tribesmen'.


Whether Pakistan was satisfied or not at one particular time does not change that fact that Pakistan was not obligated to withdraw tribesmen without negotiations. Perhaps Pakistan started to withdraw/withdrew and realized that it would amount to handing India a military advantage. Pakistan would then be acting within the framework of the resolutions to not withdraw until negotiations were concluded.



> The question therefore is, if Pakistan could claim to have withdrawn its 'citizens and tribesmen' without negotiating with India, what stopped Pakistan from actually withdrawing its 'citizens and tribesmen'?


Perhaps we decided doing so with give India a military advantage and therefore decided to wait until negotiations to our satisfaction were completed.



> I don't see any status quo. On the other hand I see a pragmatic approach to solve the imbroglio. Contrary to what Pakistanis believe, plebiscite was not the objective, but a means to solve the Kashmir 'dispute'.



Again, _""I am willing to accept that the question of the part of Kashmir which is under you should be settled by demarcating the border on the basis of the present ceasefire line."_

_On the basis of the present ceasefire line_ - that is status quo.


> Self-evident facts are not perception. It is however funny how 'intransigence does not equate violation' and yet, India not holding plebiscite primarily, for non-fulfillment of preconditions, and generally, due to impracticability of the plebiscite, is 'violation'.
> 
> Similarly, it has been clearly shown that India committed no violation by not holding the plebiscite since the preconditions for the plebiscite were not fulfilled.


If the facts were self-evident then the proper recourse was to have the UNSC take into account the 'self-evident' facts and pass a resolution indicating so.

There was



> Firstly, the 'time-line' argument is doesn't fly. By the end of '53, it was evident that neither Pakistan nor India was willing to budge in a way that would be acceptable to the other party. The negotiations had come to a deadlock. I am assuming that you have resorted to 'time-line' argument out of ignorance of what the situation was then. I will let it pass.


Deadlock does not equate irrelevance of the resolutions nor violation of them. This was India's unilateral decision that things could no longer move forward and it acted unilaterally to violate its commitment to the resolutions 


> Secondly, the UN can't just _suo motu_ nullify an agreement. Both the parties had to agree. Again, basics of agreement law.


And Pakistan did not agree with your interpretation of the situation, and we did not agree - hence a unilateral violation of the commitment on the part of India.


> One more thing. Political rhetoric is one thing and legal argument is another. Your accusation of 'unilaterally violating' UN resolutions is what it is - just rhetoric of desperation.


I think the above clearly shows that unilateral violation is exactly what it was - there was no language related to timelines or deadlocks in the resolution, and there was no violation of the resolutions by Pakistan (since the whole 'withdrawal of Citizens and Tribesmen' argument has been debunked). India chose to indicate that it would not honor its commitment to the resolutions without Pakistan's agreement - that is a unilateral violation of India's commitment to honor the UNSC resolutions, no matter how you try to spin it.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Solomon2 said:


> This "hammering" is mere tapping compared to terrorism, nuclear confrontation, and border warfare. If you evaluate the feelers from the GoI, you may find that progress on Kashmir is indeed possible - but it can't happen while these three issues dominate India-Pakistan relations. And why not at least suspend them for a while? After all, they are merely _tactics_ for achieving the goal of liberating Kashmir. With the right governments at the helms of India and Pakistan, diplomacy may be more effective.


The 'feelers' from the GoI are best summed up by the statements of Nehru and other officials posted above. Please explain to me how you interpret them.


> I concede nothing. Don't you think discussion about the U.S. belongs in other threads?


No - if you are to insist that your use of the word terrorism, to describe Pakistani support for insurgent groups fighting Indian occupation in violation of the UNSC resolutions, is not dishonest language for propaganda purposes, then I expect to see consistency from you and an acceptance the the United States of America was founded by terrorists and is a nation based on terrorism.

Without that declaration to indicate consistency in your approach, I do not see why you should be allowed to spew dishonest, inflammatory anti-Pakistan propaganda on this forum.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> So your comment of these posts *proving that India's leaders had decided to not honor the commitment despite no transgression on part of Pakistan *is not correct..



I think I illustrated quite clearly in my exchange with Toxic that the UNSC resolutions required no withdrawal on the part of Pakistan without negotiations between India, Pakistan and the UN commission. So there was no violation and no transgression by Pakistan. 

What happened here is that India decided on her own that the negotiations should be ended and that India should not honor its commitment to the resolutions, and the statements I quoted of Nehru and from the officials you listed are all statements made before Operation Gibralter.

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## Solomon2

> The 'feelers' from the GoI are best summed up by the statements of Nehru and other officials posted above.


I may be wrong, but I dispute this characterization of the GoI's current approach. Even if it were true, why should that prevent Pakistan from seeking suitable interlocutors in the Indian opposition?



> Without that declaration to indicate consistency in your approach, I do not see why you should be allowed to -


I accept specific, factual, analogies but I reject application of the sweeping term "terrorism" to both the American and Pakistani cases, for it levels and thus ignores the factual differences between the two. Giving both the same label is a matter of opinion and judgment, not fact, and as such is something to be debated by itself, not something to be blithely accepted in the name of "consistency". 

I don't accept this kind of _linguistic despotism_. It's like me telling someone that I'm allergic to apples and my listener saying that means I'm allergic to all fruit, because apples = fruit; otherwise, he's going to make me suffer by serving me apples.

From my interactions at PDF I suspect that this phenomenon is widespread among Pakistanis. Do you agree, AM?


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I think I illustrated quite clearly in my exchange with Toxic that the UNSC resolutions required no withdrawal on the part of Pakistan without negotiations between India, Pakistan and the UN commission. So there was no violation and no transgression by Pakistan.
> 
> What happened here is that India decided on her own that the negotiations should be ended and that India should not honor its commitment to the resolutions, and the statements I quoted of Nehru and from the officials you listed are all statements made before Operation Gibralter.



The negotiations had to be completed before the plebiscite. They were not. Now it can be an endless debate on whose fault that was, but the negotiations never got completed till 1952. At which time the ground realities had changed significantly to make the Indian agreement to hold plebiscite outdated. 

So you simply cant take a part of the statements from Indian leaders as true and the remaining part as false to align to your arguement.

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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> For the umpteenth time, I am not the one making the distinction, the language of the UNSC resolutions should be self explanatory - again:
> 
> The resolutions clearly refer to 'Citizens (Pakistani nationals) and Tribesmen', and their withdrawal is linked to negotiations between India, Pakistan and the UN commission. End of story.


Irrelevant. 

As much vague as the Cease Fire agreement was, it makes one thing clear. Part II/B.1 required complete withdrawal of Pakistani citizens and tribesmen before IA would even begin to withdraw. On the other PA had only to begin withdrawing. That pretty much cuts down any scope for negotiation in connection with citizens and tribesmen, since no matter what IA was not to move an inch until the whole of citizens and tribesmen had packed their bags and left. The hint of a broader mechanism for withdrawal and demilitarization makes it clear that UN was looking at the two entities separately and no matter how much you want to look at these as a homogeneous entity for the purpose of negotiation, to UN they were not.


> Whether Pakistan was satisfied or not at one particular time does not change that fact that Pakistan was not obligated to withdraw tribesmen without negotiations.


The fact that Pakistan was not obligated to withdraw tribesmen without negotiations stopped making a difference and became irrelevant when Pakistan made that claim of withdrawal without so much of a negotiation. 


> Perhaps Pakistan started to withdraw/withdrew and realized that it would amount to handing India a military advantage. Pakistan would then be acting within the framework of the resolutions to not withdraw until negotiations were concluded.
> 
> Perhaps we decided doing so with give India a military advantage and therefore decided to wait until negotiations to our satisfaction were completed.


There is no evidence that Pakistan even began any withdrawal. In fact Indias central stand was violation of Part I/B & E. B required both the countries to stop _augmenting the military potential of their forces_ and E required to create and maintain _an atmosphere favorable to the promotion of further negotiations_. India had always maintained that Pakistan was continuously augmenting Azad Kashmir forces and flooding P0K with its own citizens. Later admission by the Azad Kashmir govt. that they were 35,000 people strong, which India believed to be an understatement, somewhat validated Indias stand. 

Regarding military advantage, it was not for Pakistan to bother. Pakistan was the one who had to evacuate the land occupied by it, only to be taken over by local administration which would be supervised by the UN. Pakistan had no role in anything post withdrawal. Besides Pakistan had to completely withdraw its citizens and tribesmen before IA could begin the demilitarization process. Clearly UN didnt care if military advantage/disadvantage mattered in connection withdrawal of citizens and tribesmen and effectively made it a non issue.

On another note, this whole military advantage/disadvantage arises out of Pakistan's misplaced sense of entitlement that they owned P0K and therefore was entitled to hold and defend that piece of land. UN made it clear that it was not the case.

The perhaps part of your statement is just a figment of your imagination. The remainder part of that argument is therefore irrelevant.


> Again, _""I am willing to accept that the question of the part of Kashmir which is under you should be settled by demarcating the border on the basis of the present ceasefire line._"
> 
> _On the basis of the present ceasefire line_ - that is status quo.


Again, that is not status quo. If he had wanted the situation to linger as it was, then it would have been a status quo. Like it is today. He clearly wanted to resolve the Kashmir problem i.e. terminate the situation as opposed to linger, by converting ceasefire line, which later became LoC, into international boundary.


> If the facts were self-evident then the proper recourse was to have the UNSC take into account the 'self-evident' facts and pass a resolution indicating so.


Thats why Gunnar Jarring was sent in 57 and Dr Graham in 58, to verify why demilitarization wasnt happening.


> Deadlock does not equate irrelevance of the resolutions nor violation of them. This was India's unilateral decision that things could no longer move forward and it acted unilaterally to violate its commitment to the resolutions.


Deadlock meant that the preconditions for plebiscite couldnt he fulfilled and hence the plebiscite couldnt be held till the unlocking of deadlock. Meanwhile, as one waited till eternity for this magical unlocking to happen, this deadlock meant that passage of time had resulted in change in _political, economic and strategic factors surrounding the whole of the Kashmir question, together with the changing pattern of power relations in West and South Asia_ which made implementation of the resolutions, _progressively more difficult_. In other words deadlock made the resolutions irrelevant over time.

The gulf between the two countries stand points made it impossible for things to move forward and that we havent been able to move in any direction in these 50 odd years, sort of vindicates our assessment of the situation as it stood in the 50s. Dr Graham in his 6th report, in '58, recognized this problem:

_'...it would appear that the execution of section A in Part II might create more serious difficulties than were foreseen at the time the parties agreed to that clause.' (para 13)_

Once again, there was no violation of resolutions on Indias part, since the preconditions to plebiscite couldnt be fulfilled due to the deadlock created by Pakistans intransigence. If, in your words, deadlock is not violation, then inability to perform due to such deadlock is also not violation.


> And Pakistan did not agree with your interpretation of the situation, and we did not agree - hence a unilateral violation of the commitment on the part of India.


Childish.

India didnt accept Pakistans position on Part I/B & E, withdrawal & demilitarization, post demilitarization obligations, definition of local authority and several other Pakistani interpretations. I guess that would make unilateral violation of the commitment on the part of Pakistan as well, simply because India didnt agree.

It is irrelevant if Pakistan disagreed with Indias interpretation or vice-versa. It is obvious that they didnt agree (Duh!). What is relevant for passing a resolution by UN to declare an earlier resolution to be void  which is what I attempted to explain earlier  is that both the parties must agree that such a nullifying resolution was required to be passed.


> I think the above clearly shows that unilateral violation is exactly what it was - there was no language related to timelines or deadlocks in the resolution, and there was no violation of the resolutions by Pakistan [] India chose to indicate that it would not honor its commitment to the resolutions without Pakistan's agreement - that is a unilateral violation of India's commitment to honor the UNSC resolutions, no matter how you try to spin it.


It is precisely because Pakistan chose not to implement the preconditions that forced us to choose to not honor our commitment. If Pakistans choice of not implementing the preconditions was not violation, then our choice of not implementing our commitment, which was itself contingent upon Pakistans choice, was not a violation either. End of story.

You havent debunked anything yet.


> ..(since the whole 'withdrawal of Citizens and Tribesmen' argument has been debunked).


Careful with that premature chest thumping. It might give you a severe sore chest.

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## EjazR

*Spring in Srinagar's step - India - The Times of India*
Sameer Arshad, TOI Crest, 13 February 2010, 10:42am IST

_Occasional gunfire still rattles the Valley, but it's an unwelcome punctuation whose glory days are over and gone. Dividends of the peace process are now visible more than ever before - days no longer defined by curfew hours, politicians unafraid of the streets, and youngsters sipping latte as they listen to Bryan Adams at hip cafes brimming with tourists ... _

It was an extraordinary sight. Omar Abdullah, chief minister of J&K , visited his grand father Sheikh Abdullah's mausoleum near Dal Lake, Srinagar, to pay his respects on the leader's birth anniversary last December. Hundreds of young and old alike jostled to get a glimpse of the young CM. The luckier ones shook hands with him while others captured the happy moment on their phone cameras. 

The scene, reminiscent of the days when his grandfather held sway over Kashmiris, was rare for a place where politicians have confined themselves to barricaded houses in exclusive security zones for the past 20 years. But with violence dipping considerably - some statistics suggest a fall of 27 per cent in just the last one year - since India and Pakistan started a stop-start peace process in 2004, the Valley these days looks like a refreshingly different place. 

*The city is a far cry from how Eric Margolis, an American journalist, described it in the 1990s. He compared the "pall of fear and raw tension" over Srinagar to other cities at war - like Beirut, Algiers, San Salvador, Bogota and Kabul. The benefits of the peace process are evident - Srinagar is suddenly alive and kicking.* The gloomy, deathly silence of the dusk-to-dawn curfew days is a fading memory. Sinister looking bunkers made with sand bags and secured with barbed wire on every road corner have been replaced with signs assuring you that the police are "with you, for you, ever and always" . Today, the streets are buzzing; shops remain open until late at night and the tourists - the mainstay of Kashmir's economy - are back in the picturesque land. YouTube star Terra Naomi performed in the city on the eve of the Copenhagen Climate Summit last November. Hip cafeterias that have sprouted all over Srinagar play Bee Gees and Bryan Adams as they serve lattes and cappuccinos . The choice of music may be a tad dated, but in a city where theatres were banned from showing films till very recently this is a big step forward. 

Sumit Ganguly, professor of political science at Indiana University, Bloomington, and author of The Crisis in Kashmir, says the peace process made it incumbent on the ISI "to call off its dogs for a bit" . He says, otherwise, the US administration would have been forced to hector the Pakistanis yet again. "More importantly, public opinion in India would have scuttled the peace process." 

Pakistani-American historian Ayesha Jalal echoes Ganguly and adds that considerable American pressure on the Pakistani establishment since 9/11 forced Islamabad to discourage infiltration into J&K . "The infiltrations aren't being actively encouraged as in the past, leaving the Lashkar-e-Taiba and its radical supporters dissatisfied and prone to plotting 26/11-like attacks," she says. 

Former prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee - often described as the architect of Kashmir's peace process - turned the tide when he extended a hand of friendship calling for better relations with Pakistan and a peaceful approach to the Kashmir conflict during his April 2003 visit to the troubled state. At the time of Vajpayee's intervention, the conflict had taken menacing proportions with a greater degree of involvement of Pakistani terrorist groups such as LeT and later Jaish-e-Mohammad , units that unleashed a wave of suicide attacks at the beginning of the millennium. 

The renewed thaw was consolidated when Vajpayee and Musharraf met at Islamabad in January 2004 and announced a slew of measures to normalise relations. Later, the same month, a Hurriyat delegation met Vajpayee and deputy prime minister L K Advani in the first such face-to-face encounter between the separatists and senior government representatives. Advani, on his part, pledged accelerated release of political prisoners and improved enforcement of human rights standards. 

In February 2004, the first round of talks were held in Islamabad between India's and Pakistan's foreign secretaries and an eight-item agenda, including Kashmir, was agreed upon for substantive talks. Further meetings were held in the second half of 2004 - to set an agenda that included commencement of a trans-LoC bus service between Srinagar and Muzaffarabad in ***. 

Jalal believes there was "more than an element of truth" in reports of fragmentation among militants after the 2004 peace process and doesn't rule out the possibility of a directive from Pakistan to terrorists holed out in Kashmir to lie low. "Pakistan doesn't want trouble with India anywhere along the eastern border as its army wrestles with grave challenges along the northwestern frontier," she says. *"While not all militants operating in Kashmir are Pakistan exports, even if they have links with the Lashkar, they do depend on support from across the line of control. Any curtailment in support is bound to affect their operations. By not stirring up the pot unduly, Pakistan can be seen to have contributed to the change." *

Marianne Heiberg, Brendan O'Leary and John Tirman in their book Terror, Insurgency, and the State: Ending Protracted Conflicts, say: "Before the fall from office, Vajpayee and his national security advisor Brajesh Mishra had laid the groundwork for a substantive peace process and built good rapport with their Pakistani counterparts. Vajpayee also enjoys high standing among the population in the Indian-controlled Kashmir, not a mean feat for an Indian politician.'' 

Mehbooba Mufti of the People's Democratic Alliance seconds the assessment and credits Vajpayee for picking up the signals correctly from his Srinagar visit. "He made a historic announcement in spite of Kargil, the Parliament attack and the Agra setback," she says. 

When the UPA came to power in 2004, prime minister Manmohan Singh built upon Vajpayee's work and declared a ceasefire at a time when the two armies were in a combat position, and it continues in spite of 26/11. What's more, the bus service between the two Kashmirs may be only symbolic but it has survived against all odds. Similarly, even though trade across the LoC lacks procedural sophistication, it still thrives.

Mufti notes that all these developments could never have happened in the past because Kashmir was never a part of any confidence-building measure. "It's therefore necessary that (the) Indo-Pak dialogue restarts with Kashmir as a part of it," she adds. 

*Darren C Zook, who teaches comparative Asian politics at the University of California, Berkeley, says India and Pakistan may have orchestrated their own contributions to the peace process, but the lack of popular support for terrorists among most Kashmiris has caused splintering and fragmentation of militant movements . "Most Kashmiris feel that militants are using Kashmir as a pawn in their own Pakistani-based agenda to battle India. They cannot win hearts and minds in Kashmir because their own hearts and minds are with Pakistan," he says. "This may be why even small initiatives taken by Pakistan or India work in a positive direction - they are merely capitalising on political moods present in Kashmir. I've never heard a single person from Kashmir voice support for groups like the Lashkar. What they want is peace." *

The biggest positive outcome of the peace process, and by far, remains the extraordinary voter turnout during the November-December 2008 state elections. A record 68 per cent of voters cast their franchise braving the icy cold weather and poll-boycott calls from terrorist outfits. The historic election led to consolidation of a competitive two-party system consisting of the NC and PDP - a political arrangement that the state had rarely seen in the last 60 years of its existence. As experts point out, it was this lack of healthy competition in politics and the presence of an opposition that was stifled at best that led to an explosion of militancy in the late1980s. 

For now, though, the smiles are back on the faces of a harried population that wants development, peace and prosperity more than anything else - a population that is fervently hoping for the spring to last.

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## Khajur

Shopian rape case of kashmir: The undoctored truth 



Link part one :
Shopian case: The undoctored truth: India : India Today - Latest Breaking News from India, World, Business, Cricket, Sports, Bollywood.

February 13, 2010

*Headlines Today possesses tapes to establish that doctors helping the probe tried to mislead the investigators by saying that the two kashmiri girls were raped.*

part two:

Shopian case: The undoctored truth: India : India Today - Latest Breaking News from India, World, Business, Cricket, Sports, Bollywood.

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## Khajur

This is another example of how low some separatists in Kashmir vlley can go to sensationalize the tragic deaths of two young girls and make false charges of rape that never happened against security force to defame them for their benefit.

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## blueoval79

Lets see whats up next.....these so called paid activists would be running for cover now.


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## weaponx

saw the video and heard the audio tape....

My god what an a$$...those guys knew that the girls were not raped but just to blame the armed forces they made lies...

in the tape we can hear them that when they understood that the investigators found that hymen is intact..they r discussing that they can claim that it was rape attempt....


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## mrwarrior006

hahahahah busted

now lets see wat are tey gonna do about it


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## Solomon2

karan.1970 said:


> ...the negotiations never got completed till 1952. At which time the ground realities had changed significantly to make the Indian agreement to hold plebiscite outdated.


Who is to say _when_ and _why_ an international agreement is "outdated"?


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## blueoval79

But ..don't you know that this is an Indian *propaganda*.....LOL....

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## Hutchroy

*Kashmir freedom impossible sans economic independence: CM *

CHIEF Minister Mian Muhammad Shahbaz Sharif has said that the freedom of Kashmir cannot be achieved without making Pakistan economically strong and independent. 

*He said that let alone Kashmir, even Pakistan cannot be termed an independent country, politically and economically, without elimination of illiteracy and ignorance and added that we would have to develop our own resources to get rid of foreign aid for political and economic freedom.*

He was addressing to a ceremony held for distribution of prizes among winners of speech and essay writing competitions at the Chief Ministers Secretariat here on Saturday.

Shahbaz Sharif said the Punjab government had made education its top priority and took revolutionary steps for promotion of quality education. He said poverty, unemployment, ignorance, terrorism and extremism could be eliminated through promotion of education and all the resources would have to be utilised for providing education to the youth. He said the developed nations had made progress due to education, science, technology and modern knowledge and we would have to equip the young generation with the same for achieving glory and making the country an Islamic welfare state in accordance with the ideals of Quaid-e-Azam and Allama Iqbal. 

The chief minister said unanimous approval of the National Finance Commission award was an important step towards the national unity and solidarity and under the award, people of all provinces and democratic leadership of federal and provincial governments decided to distribute resources judiciously. He said the federal government and provinces put their share in the NFC award, adding that nation was unanimous on the award due to the sincerity of the democratic leadership. He said due to the role of Punjab, the misunderstandings of Balochistan had been removed regarding the NFC award and the whole country appreciated it. He said the country could become prosperous by strengthening all the units. 

The CM said the previous so-called government gave power of making decisions on the award to a dictator. He said the four chief ministers had gathered at the Minar-e-Pakistan and expressed national unity. He said people of NWFP were fighting the war of existence of the country and were rendering exemplary sacrifices. Shahbaz Sharif said Iran and Turkey had made tremendous progress through hard work. He said the exports of Turkey and Pakistan were equal in 1980 and today the exports of Turkey were 136 billion dollars whereas exports of Pakistan were only 19 billion dollars. He said from Casablanca to Kuala Lumpur, Islamic countries were rich in natural resources but they were still dependent on West as they had no expertise in any sector including science, technology, politics and economics. 

The CM said Japan and Germany were totally destroyed in World War II but due to education, skill and science and technology they had made progress. He said the allied forces had destroyed Germany but it had achieved its lost glory through science and technology within 50 years. He said that if we promoted education in Pakistan, equip young generation with modern knowledge and utilise natural resources, not only the country would be strong but would also achieve freedom of Kashmir. He said freedom of Kashmir would never be achieved through statements and speeches. 

The chief minister said that for the first time in the history of the country, scholarships were being given through the Punjab Educational Endowment Fund to the talented students facing financial constraints. He said due to the educational fund, 20 such students were being given scholarships in prestigious educational institutions like LUMS who got admission to the institution purely on merit but were unable to continue studies due to financial problems. He said next year, 50 talented students would be given scholarships for getting admission to LUMS.

Earlier, Punjab Education Minister Mian Mujtaba Shujraur Rehman, narrating the details of speech and essay writing competitions, said these contests were held at tehsil, district, divisional and provincial and levels and Rs 17.5 crore were distributed as prizes among the winners. Similarly, in 2008 prizes worth Rs.14 crore were distributed for such competitions. He said more than 100,000 students participated in speech and essay writing competitions whereas more than 50,000 students participated in sports competitions. He said due to the step of the Punjab government, the spirit of competition was inculcated in the new generation. 

Speaking on the occasion, Senior Minister of Sindh Pir Mazharul Haq said that if Punjab had not display openheartedness on NFC award, it would not have been announced unanimously. He said Punjab chief minister was taking commendable steps for promotion of education. 

Minister for Education of NWFP Sardar Hussain Babak said Punjab had provided us an opportunity to gather here while playing the role of elder brother. He said the situation in NWFP was different from other three provinces and it was facing terrorism. He said that 3,000,000 people were displaced during the operations in Swat and Malakand but today they had returned to their homes honourably and the process of their rehabilitation was going on. 

Education Minister for Balochistan Tahir Mehmood paid tribute to the efforts of Chief Minister Muhammad Shahbaz Sharif for improvement of education sector and said the way Punjab was constructing a hospital for the people of Balochistan, it should also send teachers to the province on the same pattern so that schools could run could be run there. He said we had buildings for schools but there was a shortage of teachers, therefore, Punjab should help us in this regard. 

Punjab CM, visiting ministers from other provinces and educationists distributed prizes of Rs 100,000 each among the winners first position in speech and essay writing competitions. The CM also announced Rs 500,000 for a student, Sara Nasir, who won gold medal in Karate Competitions in SAF Games.

Senior Advisor Sardar Zulfiqar Ali Khan Khosa, Provincial Ministers Mian Mujtaba Shujaur Rehman, Raja Sanaullah Khan, Tanvir Ashraf Kaira, members national and provincial assemblies, vice-chancellors of all universities of Punjab, intellectuals, writers, educationists, teachers, parents and a large number of students were present.


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## MilesTogo

DAWN.COM | Editorial | Azad Kashmir today

Azad Kashmir was created within two months of Pakistans independence with high expectations. Nestled in the mountainous western region that abuts the vale of Kashmir, it forms an archers bow that is about 100 miles long and about 20-40 miles wide.

The Pakistani security elite hoped that an arrow fired from the bow would bring about the instant liberation of the vale of Kashmir from Indian occupation. The first arrow was fired almost within days of creation.

It plunged the entire region of Kashmir into armed conflict. Fourteen months later, a ceasefire sponsored by the United Nations took effect on Jan 1, 1949. The ceasefire line remained stationary despite several attempts to move it. But after the 1971 war which saw the secession of East Pakistan, it was renamed the Line-of-Control (LoC). That militaristic designation persists to this day since the line which separates the two Kashmirs has not been formalised as an international border.

Azad means free and Azad Kashmir was supposed to serve as a model state whose liberty and freedom would inspire rebellion in Indian-administered Kashmir. That did not happen for several reasons. Constitutionally, Azad Kashmir is not a part of Pakistan. But neither is it an independent state. For its entire 62-year history, it has depended on Pakistan for its economic and political survival. It does not even issue its own postage stamps.

Because Islamabad has always exercised its claim on the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir, Azad Kashmir is not counted as a fifth province of Pakistan. But for all practical purposes, Muzaffarabad lives under Islamabads shadow. Its first government was established on Oct 24, 1947 with Sardar Mohammed Ibrahim as president. On Nov 3, 1947, Azad Kashmir sought unsuccessfully to join the United Nations as a member state.

In March 1949, after the dust had settled along the ceasefire line, Azad Kashmir signed a power-sharing arrangement with the Government of Pakistan ceding all authority related to defence, foreign affairs, refugees and the plebiscite to Pakistan.

Pakistan created a Ministry for Kashmir Affairs to look after its newest asset. However, as events would show, the ministry was soon preoccupied with influencing political direction in Azad Kashmir. Not surprisingly, the ministrys directives were not always well received by Azad Kashmiris. At times, they were met with stiff resistance.

In 1955, Pakistan declared martial law in some parts of Azad Kashmir to suppress street violence triggered by the Kashmir Act. In 1957, Pakistan resorted to police action to quell a public meeting that was seeking direct action to create a united and liberated Kashmir. In 1961, President Ayub Khan carried out indirect elections in Azad Kashmir through a Basic Democracies Ordinance which legally only applied to Pakistan, further straining ties with the Azad Kashmiris.

Subsequently, faced with Islamabads dominance in their day-to-day affairs, several Azad Kashmiri leaders started a movement for liberating Indian-held Kashmir not for Pakistan but for creating a separate Kashmiri state. This further aggravated ties with Pakistan. While all this was happening, Jammu and Kashmir was inducted into the Indian union.

In 1965, the Pakistani army launched a covert war inside Indian Kashmir seeking to instigate a popular rebellion. This arrow too missed its target. Instead, it enraged India which launched a strong counter-offensive along the international border with West Pakistan.

Under the weight of the Indian elephant, the Pakistani military hastily called of its operations in Kashmir. The war ended in an UN-brokered ceasefire along the international border with minimal changes in the Kashmiri line. After the war, Pakistan lost its urge to light a fire across the Line of Control (LoC). Matters changed in 1979 when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan and the Pakistani military, with US and Saudi assistance, began training legions of Mujahideen to evict the godless communists.

After a bruised and battered Red Army pulled out of Kabul in 1989, Indian Jammu and Kashmir found itself in the grip of a large-scale revolt. Whether this was a purely indigenous movement or a corollary to events in Kabul continues to enrich scholarly volumes.

Regardless of the cause, the uprising in the vale provided the Kashmir hawks in Pakistans security elite yet another opportunity to press on with their objective. They reactivated their bases in Azad Kashmir and once again decided to fire arrows into Indian Jammu and Kashmir. Soon, freedom fighters, armed and trained allegedly by the Pakistan Army, were rolling across in droves across the LoC.

Azad Kashmir was again in the cross-hairs of armed conflict. Against this backdrop, Pakistan under Gen Ziaul Haq decided to legally separate the geographically much larger Northern Areas of Gilgit and Baltistan from Azad Kashmir. This caused almost as much consternation in the latter as it did in India. The separation of the Northern Areas by Pakistan eliminated all doubts about the sovereignty of Azad Kashmir. With the reactivation of conflict across the Line-of-Control, the quality of life of the Azad Kashmiris was trammelled. Those who did not want to take part in the proxy war became pariahs.

Most of the cross-border infiltration was halted in the wake of 9/11 and the US invasion of Afghanistan. The attack on the Indian parliament in December 2001 was designed to reinvigorate the Kashmir issue but all it did was bring India and Pakistan to the brink of full-scale war in 2002. For a while the Musharraf regime sought to differentiate the struggle for freedom in Kashmir from political acts of terror but its spin failed to gain traction with the world community. Cross-border terrorism was quiet for several years.

The attacks on Mumbai by a group linked to militant activities in Kashmir in November 2008 were an attempt to reignite the conflict but succeeded only in drawing widespread opprobrium. During the past 62 years, the people of Azad Kashmir have been unable to arise out of poverty in large measure because they are caught in the crossfire between India and Pakistan. The land which their elders knew as a mountain paradise has been turned into a living hell.

Of the four million people who inhabit the region, nine of 10 live in extremely impoverished conditions in rural areas. Population growth is excessive, at 2.4 per cent per year, and the average house holds no fewer than seven people. Sadly, Azad Kashmirs future is as murky today as it was in 1947. And the objective for its creation, the liberation of the vale of Kashmir, seems increasingly remote.

ahmadfaruqui@gmail.com

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## footmarks

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> We support resolution of the dispute through self-determination - under the UNSC resolutions there is no third option for 'freedom'.
> 
> Nonetheless, Azad kashmir does have a significant degree of autonomy, and *passing a resolution in the UN and making Azad kashmir an independent nation does not resolve the issue of the territory occupied by India does it? So why do it?*
> 
> If India and Israel can willfully violate their commitments to the UNSC resolutions on Kashmir and Palestine, then why would an additional resolution in the UNSC change things?
> 
> Why doesn't the international community pressure India to agree to fulfill its commitment to the existing resolutions and negotiate with Pakistan to implement a referendum?
> 
> The UNSC resolutions already had the broad agreement of India, Pakistan and the international community on the principle of a plebiscite under the UN to determine which nation the Kashmiris can be part of - what is needed is the will on the Indian side to move towards implementing that solution of a plebiscite.



Sir, Whatever Pakistan is doing right now, does THAT resolve the issue?? No. So why do it. Why do Pakistan supports and promote violence in India in the name of Kashmir freedom? Instead, Declaring Pakistan Administered Kashmir as a FULL AND REAL INDEPENDENT COUNTRY, and trying to get it recognized by International community will put a huge amount of pressure upon India to follow the suit. IMO, it will be a diplomatic masterstroke from Pakistan's POV. But, this will not happen. Because, Pakistan's real motive is not Independent Kashmir but an Pakistani state.

Be the change you want to see in the world. Pakistan need to lead from the front. Otherwise such rhetoric by posting some youtube videos will do nothing other than getting the poster some thanks on PDF.

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## MarkTheTruth

Following the World War-II, there has been an unremitting resistance by the people of Subcontinent against the ruling British colonial power. Under the swelling pressure of the people of subcontinent, the British Government finally had to announce the partition of the Subcontinent on June 3, 1947. However, the British Parliament formally passed The Indian Independence Act-1947 on July 17, 1947. As per provision of Article-I of the Independence Act, India was to be partitioned into two Dominions namely India and Pakistan from 15th day of August 1947. However, Article 7 of the Indian Independence Act very clearly states that from 15th August 1947, the suzerainty of His Majesty over the Indian states lapse and with it lapses all treaties and agreements in force at the date of the passing of this Act between His Majesty and the rulers of Indian states. Consequent upon this, all powers and functions, which were exercisable by the British Government in relation to the Princely States, also ceased.

All agreements of British governments with either rulers or states also lapsed on 15th of August 1947. Since the state of Jammu and Kashmir was a Princely State with a special autonomous status, therefore, it can be very conveniently said, that on 15th day of August 1947, the Maharaja Sir Hari Singh was not the permissible ruler of the state of Jammu and Kashmir as all his treaties with British India lapsed on that day. Once he was not a ruler of the state, he had no right to sign the instrument of accession (if at all he signed that) with the new Indian dominion. This title to the state was granted to him by the British Government (East India Company) under the Treaty of Amritsar (Kashmir Sale deed) signed on 16 March 1846 and lapsed on the appointed day of 15th August 1947.

Besides, on July 25, 1947 in his address to special full meetings of the Chamber of Princes held in New Delhi, Lord Mountbatten categorically told all princes of Princely States that they were practically free to join any one of dominions; India or Pakistan. He however clarified that, while acceding to any dominion they could take into account geographical contiguity and wishes of the people. In case of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, either of the above factors was favouring states accession to Pakistan, but Maharaja Hari Singh did not accept this basic precondition of accession.

Indian claim that its forces landed Srinagar Airport on October 27, 1947, only after signatures on Instrument of Accession by Maharaja and the Indian government is also fallacious. Indeed, a heavy contingent of Patiala State was involved in fighting against the Kashmiri rebellions in Uri Sector on 18 October 1947, which means that they were very much inside the State's territory much earlier than October 27, 1947.

On 24 October 1947, Kashmiris formally declared their independence from Dogra Raj and established their own government with the name of Azad (Free) Kashmir Government. Following this Maharaja Hari Singh sent his deputy Prime Minister Mr. R.L. Batra to New Delhi for Indian military assistance to his Government against those revolted and tribal from NWFP who joined their brethrens against a tyrant rule. He (Batra) met the Indian Prime Minster and other prominent Indian leaders and requested for assistance without making any mention or promise of states accession to the Indian Union. The Indian government instead sent Mr. V.P Menon (Indian Secretary of State) to Kashmir to assess the situation on the spot by himself on 25 October 1947.

After assessing, the situation in Kashmir Mr. V.P Menon flew back to New Delhi on 26 October 1947, together with Kashmiri Prime Minster Mr. Mahajan, who met top Indian leadership, seeking military assistance. He was refused to get that until states formal accession with India. On this Kashmiri Premier threatened the Indian leadership that if immediate military assistance was not granted, he would go to Lahore for negotiations with Pakistani leadership over the future status of the state. In a parallel development, Sheikh Abdullah met Indian Premier, Jawaharlal Nehru, on the same day, October 26, 1947, who agreed to despatch military assistance to the Kashmir government.

As stated by Mahajan, the Kashmiri Prime Minister, that V.P. Menon accompanied him to convince Hari Singh for accession of the State with India on 27 October 1947. Under the compulsion, Hari Singh signed the instrument of accession on the same day i.e. 27 October 1947, which was later taken to Lord Mountbatten (Indian Governor General), who also signed that on the same day (27 October), which was practically difficult. V.P. Menon, however, states that all these formalities of signatures were completed on 26 October 1947, which is impracticable. This version, however, seems concocted as even contradicted by pro Indian Kashmiri Premier. Both however are unanimous on one point that Indian state forces landed at Srinagar airfield in the morning of 27 October 1947 and a battalion of Patiala State received them there, which was already there.

In his travel account, Kashmiri Prime Minister Mahajan has described that he had refused to return to Kashmir and hand over powers to Sheikh Abdullah until Srinagar airfield had been physically taken over by the Indian forces. This creates doubt as to whether Mahajan and V.P Menon even went to the State (Jammu) for getting the signatures of Maharaja Hari Singh on the Instrument of Accession before 27 October 1947. This is further confirmed by variation in the statements of V.P. Menon and Mr. Mahajan (Kashmiri Prime Minister) regarding their travel to Kashmir either on 26 or on 27 October 1947 for getting the signatures of Maharaja Hari Singh.

However, whatever be the case the factual position is that; Maharaja Hari Singh was not in favour of States accession to Indian Union therefore, he only requested the Indian government for military assistance without any pre-condition of accession. Indeed, the accession documents and letters to Lord Mountbatten were initiated through the Joint efforts of V.P Menon and pro India Kashmiri Premier Mahajan, as wished by Indian Government and Hari Singh was forced to sign it on the evening of 27 October 1947 or thereafter. Whereas, Indian forces landed on Srinagar airport on the early hours of 27 October 1947. The time calculation of Mr. V.P Menons (Indian Secretary of State) visit to Srinagar, Delhi, Jammu and vice versa does not fit in with the concocted story of the signing of the Instrument of Accession.

Even if there is an instrument of accession between Maharaja Hari Singh and Indian government, it provides a number of safeguards to the states sovereignty, e.g. Clause 7 of the instrument says, Nothing in this instrument shall be deemed to commit me in any way to acceptance of any future constitution of India . Whereas, Clause 8 of the Instruments says, Nothing in this Instrument affects the continuance of my sovereignty in and over this state..

Supposedly, the all instrument of accession was signed by the Maharaja and Indian government, it was clearly mentioned in his reply to Maharajas letter by Lord Mountbatten that after the restoration of law and order in the State of Jammu and Kashmir and the expulsion of the raiders, its future will be decided in accordance with the wishes of the people of the State. The same stance was taken by UNO in its over 23 resolutions, passed from time to time. Besides, over the years, Indian leadership had been reiterating their commitments to Kashmiris, Government of Pakistan and to the world community that after the restoration of peace in the state, its future would be decided as per the wishes of the people of Jammu and Kashmir through UN mandated plebiscite. However, with the passage of time India refused to fulfil her commitments/obligations, which means she had ill designs right from the very beginning. Nevertheless, implementation of these resolutions and the fulfilment of Indian commitments is still awaited.

Another significant fact is that, had there been any accession treaty between the state of Jammu and Kashmir and the Indian government, why it could not be published in the Indian White Paper of 1948? This has left a great disbelief regarding the conclusion of any such agreement. Yet another very serious reservation arises, had Kashmir been part of the Indian Union, why it was given a special status under the provision of internal autonomy through Article 370 of the Indian constitution? It is momentous to mention that the Indian government did not accord a similar status to any other state under this provision. Indeed, out of 560 Princely states, over five hundred joined India, but none was accorded this special status.

Through this status and a number of commitments, India kept luring in Kashmiri masses to become its part. Upon failure of winning their commiserations, India forced its way, through a fake assembly resolution in mid 1950s and thereafter started calling the state as its integral part. United Nations, however, through its resolution, No.2017 of 30 March 1951 and S.3779 of January 24, 1957, made it absolutely clear that; any action which Kashmir Constituent Assembly may have taken or might attempt to take to determine the future shape of state or any of its part would not constitute the disposition of the state and that election of States Constituent Assembly cannot be a substitute for plebiscite. Thus, this act of India was a blatant violation of the UNSC resolutions that India had accepted too.
Inaccuracy of Indian claim of accession can be judged from the top-secret letter addressed to British Government by Mr Alexander Symon, UK High Commissioner to India. In this letter, he briefly described the events until 4.00 P.M on October 1947, as; ten Indian aircrafts loaded with arms and troops were despatched to Kashmir from New Delhi on the morning of 27 October 1947. Until 4 P.M of 27 October 1947, Mr V.P. Menon has not reported from Jammu, which mean accession documents were either not signed or signed by Hari Singh on 27 October 1947, and there were only rumours of Kashmir accession to Indian Union without any confirmation.

Indian antagonistic approach can be imagined from the fact that Kashmiri Administration had requested for a Standstill Agreement with both India and Pakistan. Pakistan, however, accepted this offer but India owing to its pre-planned evil designs did not accept it. Instead of accepting it, India started interference in states affair through leaders like Sheikh Abdullah. Finally, they paved the way for illegal interference in the states affair through military invasion by her forces in October 1947.

From July to October 1947, with the connivance of Indian leaders like Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, Patel, and V.P Menon, three Kashmiri Prime Ministers were changed one after the other. Pandit Kak, the States Prime Minister, was indeed favouring states accession to Pakistan or to keep it independent. He was a strong opponent of states accession to India, in spite of being a Hindu Pandit. Mahajan, who replaced Pandit Kak as new Prime Minister was a non-Kashmiri. He was a Judge of East Punjab High Court and has been the member of Radcliff Award, and hence a party to giving away the Muslim majority areas of Gurdaspur to India. He was very close to the top Indian leadership. To get him appointed as a Prime Minister of the state was through a planned strategy to force Maharaja from all around for surrendering to Indian Union.

In the light of the above-mentioned facts it can be very conveniently said that the Indian claim over the state of Jammu and Kashmir is completely illegitimate and unsubstantiated. India is negating its own commitment with Kashmiris, Pakistan and world community. Indian leadership should realize this and adopt a realistic approach for the solution of this outstanding issue as a goodwill gesture. Let UNO settle it under its auspices through plebiscite as per its resolutions.

Legality of Indian Claim on Kashmir


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## equiliz3r

Kashmir was under rule of Maharaja Ranjit singh and his fallow generals.
So just want to ask If Pakistan dont accept Hari singh as ruler of kashmir as it was "Forced" by Britishers............then any following generation of Maharaja Ranjit singh should had worked.

As per my Knowlegde , One of the granddaughter of Maharaja was able to reach Punjab.Her name was Princess Bamba Sutherland .She died in 1957 in Lahore.


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## equiliz3r

But sadly none of Maharaja's Family is alive today.

Can his generals or their family members veto work????

If it is not of India how can it be of Pakistan????


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## hembo

*Drama in a theater of despair*
By Ajai Sahni

Gilgit-Baltistan ranks among the most beautiful places in the world. It is, however, a region of the enduring oppression and despair. This dark corner of Jammu and Kashmir, administered by Pakistan since the partition of British India in 1947, [1] has largely remained outside the spectrum of international attention and concern.

Harsh controls over the entry and movement of the press, both domestic and international, choke off information flows within and from the region, even as the population is silenced by an overwhelming military and intelligence presence, illegal detentions and "disappearances". Periodically, however, Islamabad orchestrates a charade, largely for the benefit of the fitfully apprehensive international community, and in efforts to divide and dilute increasing sub-nationalist sentiments and demands, variously, for human rights, autonomy or independence.

A fifth "package drama" since 1971 has recently been announced by Pakistan Prime Minister Yusuf Gilani. This comes after the October 2007 "comprehensive package" - introduced by then-president Pervez


Musharraf, purportedly to "help bring the region at par with the rest of the country" - failed to secure the slightest improvement in this unhappy land.

It is significant that the Musharraf package came as a damage-control exercise after the passage in the European Union parliament of a devastating report by the EU rapporteur, Baroness Emma Nicholson, which, while deploring "documented human-rights violations by Pakistan" declared unambiguously that "the people of Gilgit and Baltistan are under the direct rule of the military and enjoy no democracy". Nicholsons report was scathing, both on sheer oppression of the people, on the complete absence of legal and human rights and of a constitutional status, as well as on the enveloping backwardness that had evidently been engineered as a matter of state policy in the region

Over the past two years, echoes of the Nicholson report continue to reverberate in the international discourse, even as there are growing concerns regarding the re-location of Islamist extremist and terrorist groups in Gilgit-Baltistan, and a growing restiveness in the region's predominantly Shi'ite population. It is against this backdrop that Gilani signed the "Empowerment and Self-governance Ordinance, 2009, for Gilgit-Baltistan", on August 29.

Through the ordinance, President Asif Ali Zardari explained to a delegation of leaders from Gilgit-Baltistan, the government had given "internal freedom and all financial, democratic, administrative, judicial, political and developmental powers to the Legislative Assembly of Gilgit-Baltistan".

How, then, does Manzoor Hussain Parwana, chairman of the Gilgit-Baltistan United Movement (GBUM), which demands "full autonomy" for the region, describe the Gilani "package" as an "Ordinance for Advancement of Slavery"? And why has the ordinance been rejected as an outright fraud by virtually all political formations struggling for constitutional, political and human rights in Gilgit-Baltistan? Why do leading parties even in Pakistan condemn the ordinance as a "unilateral decision of [the ruling] Pakistan People's Party", while others reject it as an attempt to "annex these regions through a presidential ordinance and by imposing governors rule?"

The reality quickly reveals itself in the most cursory examination of the provisions of the ordinance. It ostensibly gives Gilgit-Baltistan its own "elected" Legislative Assembly and chief minister, but takes away with one hand what it endows with the other. It is in the governor that all real power is vested, and this would be an "outsider", appointed by the president of Pakistan.

Significantly, the people of Gilgit-Baltistan, since they have been granted no constitutional status in Pakistan, do not vote to elect the president, the prime minister, or the members of the National Assembly. The chief minister may not select his own council of ministers, but must act in this regard on the "advice" of the governor. Critically, the Gilgit-Baltistan assembly cannot discuss or legislate on any issues relating to defense, foreign affairs, and crucially, finance, security and the interior. The ordinance awards no constitutional rights, guarantees or freedoms to the people. In effect, nothing has changed in what the regions only weekly, K2, describes as "Sarzamin-be-Ain", the "Land without a constitution".

On examination, it is clear that the new "package" only brings "a change in nomenclature rather than genuine political reforms". It offers little that is concretely different from the Musharraf "package", and has quite rightly been dismissed as old wine in new bottles by a wide consensus of political leaders across Gilgit-Baltistan. Indeed, premonitions of the puppet assembly were already visible in the Emma Nicholson report:

The Northern Areas (Gilgit-Baltistan) Council, set up some time ago, with the boast that it is functioning like a "Provincial Assembly", screens, in reality, a total absence of constitutional identity or civil rights ...

Creating a Legislative Assembly under an Islamabad-dominated Gilgit-Baltistan Council, and allowing the "election" of a chief minister, cannot, consequently, conceal or alter the circumstances that have been closely documented in the Nicholson report:

The people are kept in poverty, illiteracy and backwardness. The deprivation and lack of even very basic needs provision can be easily seen - 25 small hospitals serviced by 140 doctors (translating into one doctor per 6,000 people) as compared to 830 hospitals and 75,000 doctors in the rest of Pakistan, an overall literacy rate of 33%, with especially poor educational indicators for girls and women; only 12 high schools and two regional colleges in Gilgit and Baltistan, with no post-graduate facilities; apart from government jobs, the only other employment being in the tourism sector, which is obviously problematic A few locals are able to secure government jobs but even then they are paid up to 35% less than non-native employees; there is no local broadcast media. 

Indeed, the new ordinance simply reinforces the constitutional limbo within which Gilgit-Baltistan exists, continuing with the substantive provisions of the Musharraf package, in continuity with the succession of "Legal Framework Orders" under which the region was ruled over the preceding four decades. The new order is just another attempt to perpetuate and conceal the "political atrocities on the people in the occupied region", and to "buy time and hide violations of human and political rights".

It is useful, within this context, to review the contours of the occupation of Gilgit-Baltistan. When the British granted Independence to India, the 565 "Princely States" - including Jammu and Kashmir (J&K) - technically became "sovereign states". Consequently, following the collapse of British paramountcy in 1947, the entire Gilgit agency was restored to the then-Dogra King, Hari Singh, who eventually acceded to India.

Pakistan, however, fomented and supported a rebellion in the region, and seized control, consolidating its administration through a succession of ruses, such as the Karachi Agreement of 1949, under which entirely unrepresentative officials signed "letters of accession" and "ratified" Pakistani administrative control over the region. Crucially, a Supreme Court judgement in 1999 took note of the legal and constitutional anomalies, as well as the denial of basic rights and development, in Gilgit-Baltistan and explicitly directed the Pakistan government, among other things,

... to initiate appropriate administrative/legislative measures within a period of six months from today to make necessary amendments in the constitution/relevant statute/statutes/order/orders/rules/notification/notifications, to ensure that the people of Northern Areas enjoy their ... fundamental rights, namely, to be governed through their chosen representatives and to have access to justice through an independent judiciary inter alia for enforcement of their fundamental rights guaranteed under the constitution. (Emphases added). 

A decade later, Pakistan has failed to meet even the minimum requirements of the clear and specific direction of its own Supreme Court.

The region continues, consequently, to be "directly administrated by fiat from Islamabad ... The bureaucracy, primarily drawn from the North-West Frontier Province and Punjab, has intensified the sense of alienation and negated any semblance of self-rule in the Northern Areas." Balawaristan National Front (BNF) leader, Nawaz Khan Naji, notes, "In every department, the chief is from Pakistan, the other, secondary positions are locals."

These legal and constitutional anomalies have been compounded by what the non-governmental Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) describes as "a distinct pattern of brutality and violence towards citizens". The Pakistani administration has long been involved in a campaign that seeks to alter the demographic profile of the region, and to reduce the local Shi'ite and Ismaili populations to a minority.

In the Gilgit and Skardu areas, large tracts of land have been allotted to non-locals, violating the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan (UNCIP) resolutions and the Jammu and Kashmir State Subject Rule, and outsiders have also purchased vast landholdings. One unofficial estimate suggested that over 30,000 Gilgit residents had fled the city and its suburbs just between 2000 and 2004, in the wake of orchestrated incidents of sectarian strife, followed by discriminatory and repressive action by state forces.

Three different sects of Islam, Shi'ite, Sunni and Ismaili, are prevalent in Gilgit-Baltistan, with the Shi'ites dominating, unlike other parts of Pakistan, where Sunnis constitute the overwhelming majority. With the very small exception of Chilas, Darel and Tangir villages of the Diamer District, Shi'ites constitute the clear majority across the rest of the region. 

However, Islamabads direct rule has allowed Pakistan to engage in a vast campaign of demographic re-engineering, opening up the region for colonization by Sunnis who are brought in with a number of incentives, including ownership of land and forests. Following the construction of the Karakoram Highway connecting Pakistan to China in 1978, the region saw a swelling Sunni influx from the Pakistani "mainland" - essentially Pashtuns. Sources in Gilgit-Baltistan indicate that large tracts of land continue to be allotted to Afghan refugees and Pashtuns from the North-West Frontier Province (NWFP). BNFs Nawaz Khan Naji observes:

... the Pathans [Pashtuns] are buying property and our cities are becoming Pathan-majority cities, where our locals are becoming minorities. We have no right to cast votes in Pakistan, nor in Azad Kashmir. Like a no-mans land. We are the last colony in the world. 

A sectarian polarization has been continuously encouraged in


Gilgit-Baltistan since the Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto regime in the mid-1970s. When Sunnis in Gilgit objected to Shi'ite processions and the construction of a stage on the citys main road, these activities were immediately banned. Shi'ites subsequently protested the ban and the police fired on them.

The seeds of a sectarian polarization had been sown, but the situation worsened dramatically under General Zia ul-Haq, when the military dictator encouraged cadres of the radical Sunni Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan (SSP) to extend its activities to the Gilgit-Baltistan region. A local (Shi'ite) insurrection broke out in Gilgit in May 1988, with people demanding wider rights.

To suppress the rebellion, the Special Services Group of the Pakistani army based in Khapalu was dispatched. Former president Musharraf, then a young brigadier, was in charge of the operations, in which he used Sunni tribal irregulars to execute a brutal pogrom against the locals, earning himself the sobriquet "butcher of Baltistan". Truckloads of Sunni tribals were sent in from the Afghan border to the region, and they indulged in anti-Shi'ite brutalities unprecedented in Pakistans history. After eight days of sustained violence, the army "stepped in" to "restore peace".

The anti-Shi'ite pogrom resurfaced in 1993, when sectarian riots started again in Gilgit, leading to the death of 20 Shi'ites. Later, the Shi'ite population was further alarmed when large numbers of Sunnis were brought in from Punjab and the NWFP to settle in Gilgit. This government-supported migration towards Gilgit-Baltistan has been hugely successful and, according to unofficial estimates, the 1:4 ratio of non-local to local people in the region, which prevailed in January 2001, had dipped to an alarming 3:4 by June 2004.

The Shi'ites retain a slim but continuously diminishing regional majority, but there are areas where concentrations of Sunnis already outnumber them. A cycle of sectarian killings has, moreover, become a continuous feature of the Gilgit-Baltistan political landscape, escalating repeatedly during religious festivals and periods of political tension.

Cyclical tensions and strife compound an extended campaign of intimidation, terror and inspired sectarian violence. There is cumulative evidence of an accelerated radicalization of Sunni organizations in Gilgit-Baltistan, especially since 2001, with the shifting of base of a number of terrorist groups - some affiliated with al-Qaeda - to "Azad Jammu and Kashmir" and to Gilgit-Baltistan. Abdul Hamid Khan of the BNF records:

There has ... been a steady inflow of Taliban and al-Qaeda operatives into the Ghezar Valley ... Terrorist training to Afghan mercenaries and various groups active in Indian-held Kashmir is being provided in the remote hilly areas of Hazara, Darel Yashote, Tangir, Astore, Skardu city and Gilgit city. 

There is, moreover, "evidence to indicate that the sectarian violence in the NAs, in particular at Gilgit, is being planned and orchestrated from other Pakistani provinces, especially the North West Frontier Province".

Very significant quantities of weapons have also been seized in Gilgit-Baltistan, and are shipped in from the neighboring provinces, even as "the tactics used by sectarian terrorists in places like Quetta, Karachi, Islamabad, Lahore and elsewhere are now being employed in the Northern Areas".

As the Nicholson report clearly noted, moreover, the entire Gilgit-Baltistan region remains mired in extreme poverty and backwardness, with a pervasive absence of most basic amenities. Even the Kashmir Affairs and Northern Areas (KANA) Ministry, which is charged with the development of the region, conceded, in the late 1990s, that the "Northern Areas" "have been neglected for the last 50 years ... [and] still rank in the most backward areas of the country."

In late August 2005, a 10-member group from the HRCP visited the Northern Areas to assess the level of social services and infrastructure in the region. The mission was fiercely critical of the inadequate structures of governance, the appalling justice system, and the paucity of social services available to the people of the region.

An index of regional backwardness can be found in the education sector. While current data for the region remain unavailable, in 1998/99 the overall literacy rate in the Northern Areas was estimated to be 33% - substantially below the national rate of 54%. There were significant disparities between the male and female population: the estimated literacy rate for males was 40%, whereas the estimate for females was only 25%.

More significantly, there are wide disparities even between the number of educational institutions in Gilgit-Baltistan and "Azad Jammu and Kashmir", reflecting Islamabads peculiar orientation towards, and biases against the former: Thus we find a total of 787 educational institutions at all levels, servicing a total population of 870,347 in Gilgit-Baltistan, as against 6,094 institutions in "Azad Jammu and Kashmir", servicing a population of 2.97 million (population figures: 1998 Census).

A comparison of the number of public health facilities in the Gilgit-Baltistan and "Azad Jammu and Kashmir" again reveals Islamabads partiality. Gilgit-Baltistan has a total of 305 public health facilities in all categories, hospitals, dispensaries and first aid posts. "Azad Jammu and Kashmir", in sharp contrast, has a total of 4,585 public health facilities across a much wider range of categories. Most of Gilgit-Baltistans settlements lack proper sewerage and drainage systems, with the result that virtually all the water supply is contaminated with human and animal waste, leading to a wide range of diseases. In January 2000, for example, the Army Field Hospital at Gilgit reported that some 47,152 patients had been treated for cholera over a period of just four months.

The region also suffers from under-utilization of its natural resources. Although the Northern Areas have tremendous potential for hydropower generation, and are, indeed, seen as a primary source of both water and power for the rest of Pakistan, the region fails to meet its own energy demands.

Gilgit-Baltistan currently has the lowest per capita rate of energy consumption in Pakistan and firewood is still the main source of domestic energy. Field surveys conducted by the Water and Power Development Authority (WAPDA) with German technical assistance revealed that 99.6% of all respondents used firewood as fuel for domestic purposes. Kerosene is currently the second most widely used energy source in Gilgit-Baltistan. Even in its "electrified" regions, kerosene is commonly used because of limited coverage of the population and frequent disruptions of the power supply. There is a large and rapidly growing gulf between existing supplies of electricity and regional demand.

Despite a long history of protests against Islamabads discriminatory policies, against growing sectarianism and violence, and against brutal state repression, Gilgit-Baltistan remains a neglected center of inequity and widespread suffering. Pakistan has utterly and continuously suppressed the people of Gilgit-Baltistan; denied them the most basic constitutional and human rights; blocked access to development and an equitable use even of local natural resources; and repeatedly and brutally suppressed the local Shi'ite majority, even as it seeks to violently promote Sunni sectarianism in the region.

Gilgit-Baltistan remains an "area of darkness", of deep neglect and exploitation, and of the denial of political rights and identity - indeed, a violation of every conceivable element of the very "self-determination" that Pakistan advocates abroad. Circumstances in Gilgit-Baltistan constitute an international humanitarian crisis. Yet, for decades, Pakistan has set a distorted international agenda of discourse, treating areas under its administration - "Azad Jammu and Kashmir" and Gilgit-Baltistan - as settled issues, even as it violently promotes and stridently proclaims a "dispute" over the Indian-administered state of Jammu and Kashmir.

Note
1. Gilgit-Baltistan is an autonomous region in northern Pakistan. It was formerly known as the Northern Areas. It is the northernmost political entity within the Pakistani-administered part of the former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir. It borders Afghanistan to the north, China to the northeast, the Pakistani-administered state of Azad Jammu and Kashmir to the south, and the Indian-administered state of Jammu and Kashmir to the southeast. The area became a single administrative unit in 1970 under the name "Northern Areas", formed from the amalgamation of the Gilgit Agency, the Baltistan District of the Ladakh Wazarat and the states of Hunza and Nagar. With its administrative center at the town of Gilgit, Gilgit Baltistan covers an area of 72,971 square kilometers and has an estimated population approaching 1,000,000. This area is part of the larger disputed territory of Kashmir between India, Pakistan and China. - Wikipedia

Ajai Sahni is the editor of the the South Asia Intelligence Review; executive director, Institute for Conflict Management.

(Published with permission from the South Asia Intelligence Review of the South Asia Terrorism Portal)


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## hembo

Women in Gilgit Protest Atrocities of Pakistani Army

[video=metacafe;4175487/kashmir_news_women_in_gilgit_protest_atrocities_of]http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4175487/kashmir_news_women_in_gilgit_protest_atrocities_of _pakistani_army/[/video]


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## hembo

*Talibanization of Gilgit-Baltistan and Sectarian Killings*
Senge H. Sering

October 19, 2009

The authorities in Gilgit-Baltistan were not quite done celebrating the proclamation of the Empowerment and Self-governance Ordinance of 20091, when a bomb rocked Gilgit town on September 27 sparking off the latest bout of Shia-Sunni riots.2 Gun battles in the aftermath of the blast have led to the death of more than twelve people, including Raja Ali Ahmed Jan, a prominent leader of the Pakistan Muslim League.3 The incidents, culminating in a short-lived peace in this Pakistani occupied Shia region of Jammu & Kashmir, have led to the detention of several civilians as well two policemen. Some of the arrested are allegedly linked to those who assassinated Deputy Speaker Asad Zaidi and his companions in Gilgit in April 2009.4 Zaidi was the third-most high profile Shia politician, after the revered clerics Agha Ziauddin5 and Allama Hassan Turabi, to become the target of sectarian violence &#8211; a menace that has troubled Gilgit-Baltistan socially and economically, since the 1970s. Agha Ziauddin&#8217;s death in January 2005 caused widespread clashes leading to a six-month long curfew and emergency, and loss of more than two hundred lives. Allama Turabi, shot dead in Karachi on July 14, 2006, hailed from Baltistan and was the President of Tehrik Jafaria of Pakistan (TJP). His death has been termed as detrimental to Shia rights&#8217; movement in Pakistan.6

In the sequence of events, as one looks back, eighteen people including the Director of the Agriculture Department of Gilgit7 died in 2008 as a result of Shia-Sunni clashes. However, by far, 2009 has seen more sectarian killings than the previous two years put together. It started in the middle of February when two Shias were killed in an attack on a van in Gilgit.8 Then, on June 17, ISI personnel arrested a Shia political activist, Sadiq Ali, and tortured him to death.9 Two months later, when the leader of the banned anti-Shia political party Sipah-e-Sahaba of Pakistan (SSP), Allama Ali Sher Hyderi was killed in Sindh, riots broke out in Gilgit leading to the closure of markets and heavy gun battle between Shias and Sunnis.10 In September, two Sunni Pashtuns and three native Shias were killed in Gilgit while a bus with Shia passengers coming from Baltistan was torched, causing several casualties.11

For centuries, people of Gilgit-Baltistan, professing various religions, co-existed in amicable conditions. It was only after Pakistan&#8217;s annexation of these regions in the seventies that anarchy began. First, authorities abrogated the State Subject Rule, the law that until then protected the local demographic composition, and encouraged Pakistani Sunnis to settle in Gilgit town. This illegal government-sponsored settlement scheme damaged the social fabric and provoked religious feuds that continue to simmer. Pakistan created a political vacuum and a law and order crisis, once princely states and time-tested administrative structures of Gilgit-Baltistan were abolished. While Islamabad refused to delegate powers to local Shias by establishing viable a modern political structure, the despotic military rulers maintained ad-hoc policies to govern the region with an iron fist. It was during the same time that Pakistan embarked on its well-rehearsed divide and rule policy to paralyze local society. It exploited ethnic and religious fault-lines to weaken the natives in their demands for genuine political and socio-economic rights. Government-led Shia-Sunni and Shia-Nurbaxshi riots caused acute socio-political polarization in Skardo during the early 1980s. Events like these forced members of the local intelligentsia like Wazir Mehdi, the only Law graduate of Gilgit-Baltistan from Aligarh University, to admit that unification with Ladakh and Kashmir brought culture and civilization to the region while opting for Pakistan has resulted in the arrival of drugs, Kalashnikovs and sectarianism. On occasion, agencies employ religious leaders to fan hatred. In one such incident, intelligence agencies released a Punjabi cleric, Ghulam Reza Naqvi, from prison &#8220;to be sent to Gilgit to keep the pot of sectarian violence boiling.&#8221; His release was granted after negotiations with SSP, which also got their leader Maulana Mohammad Ludhianivi freed from jail.12 A watershed in the history of Gilgit-Baltistan causing permanent trust deficit was reached in May 1988 when tribal Lashkars, after receiving a nod of approval from General Zia, massacred thousands of Shias in Gilgit and abducted local women. The intention was to undertake demographic change by force in this strategically located region sandwiched between China, the former Soviet Union and India.

The recent killings of Shias in Gilgit-Baltistan may also hinder the election process for the Gilgit-Baltistan Legislative Assembly (GBLA) that will take place in November of 2009. With the newly proclaimed self-governance ordinance, GBLA is expected to legislate on 66 articles pertaining to socio-economic and administrative issues. While local political institutions are evolving towards achieving genuine autonomy, the Sunni minority fears that the Shias would gain a majority in the assembly, which the former sees as a direct attack on its long term political and socio-economic interests in the region. The authorities intend to exploit similar insecurities to consolidate control over Gilgit city, which is not only the largest settlement in the region but also the capital of Gilgit-Baltistan. As the regional ballot is nearing, authorities may resort to electoral engineering to create a hung assembly, thereby stripping GBLA of the mandate to pass laws. The past experience of reorganization of constituencies along Shia-Sunni lines has also enabled Sunni candidates to gain a majority in various constituencies.

Gilgit city is divided into two constituencies &#8211; Gilgit-1 and Gilgit-2. Until a decade ago, voters from both constituencies sent Shia members to the local Council. The demographic change has turned the tide in favor of the Sunnis; in 2004, voters of Gilgit city returned Sunni candidates as winners. Shias in Gilgit-1 were further marginalized when the major Shia settlement of Nomal was transferred to Gilgit-4, thereby tilting the population balance. Since then, contests between Shia and Sunni candidates have remained neck to neck.13 The tipping point is the vote bank in the Amphari neighborhood with a mixed Shia-Sunni population where sectarian polarization will help the Sunni candidate gain a lead. Likewise, in Gilgit-2, the settlement of Pathans and Punjabis has changed the demography and this one-time Peoples Party (PPP) stronghold supported Hafiz Rehman of PML in the 2004 elections, which he won by a small margin of 500 votes.14 The voters&#8217; list released recently shows more than a 80 per cent increase in voters&#8217; numbers in Gilgit-1 (from 28,146 to 47,835) and Gilgit-2 (from 34,517 to 62,048) in just five years.15 Of these, a majority are Pakistani settlers who will impact election results in favor of Sunni candidates. The government is planning to increase the number of GBLA seats after the November elections and the above-mentioned additional voters in Gilgit city will lead to an out of proportion representation for Sunnis in GBLA. Such interference from Pakistan will only lead to further sectarian clashes and deaths.

Although sniper shooting has remained the primary method of sectarian killings, owing to Taliban influences bomb blasts are also becoming common. In May 2009, a bomb blast occurred in Baltistan, which led to the arrest of two Sunnis and recovery of explosive-making material and hand grenades.16 Later in July, a bomb was hurled at Bagrot Hostel, Gilgit, killing two and injuring several other Shia students.17 In April 2009, an Al Qaeda member, Abdullah Rehman, threatened to bomb a four-star hotel in Baltistan.18 Many Taliban who escaped from Swat and adjoining areas found shelter among Sunni extremists in Gilgit.19 Analysts fear that locals may benefit from the Taliban expertise in the field of bomb and suicide jacket making. Local youth is also susceptible to converting to the extremist Islamic ideology and joining the suicide bomber club as a result of Taliban influences. The fact that more than 300 suspected terrorists were expelled from Gilgit in October 2008 highlights fears that the Taliban presence in Gilgit-Baltistan is widespread.20 Successful Talibanization of Gilgit-Baltistan means more Shia deaths and continued arrival of Taliban in large hordes, which will hasten demographic change and hurt local cultural identity and ethnic solidarity. The ongoing military operation in Waziristan against Taliban and Al Qaeda may also create greater problems for Gilgit-Baltistan as Shia soldiers of the Northern Light Infantry Regiment will be in direct confrontation with those who perpetuated the Shia genocide in Gilgit in 1988.

1. 1. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/KI16Df01.html
2. 2. http://www.thenews.com.pk/updates.asp?id=87717
3. 3. http://pamirtimes.net/2009/09/28/pml-leader-raja-ali-ahmad-jan-shot-dead-in-konodas-gilgit/
4. 4. http://pamirtimes.net/2009/04/21/asad-zaidi-deputy-speaker-nala-shot-dead-in-gilgit/
5. 5. http://pakistantimes.net/2005/01/14/top1.htm
6. 6. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allama_Hassan_Turabi#Early_life
7. 7. http://hunzatimes.wordpress.com/200...ly-killed-in-gilgit-attack-updated-news-news/
8. 8. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=40756234671
9. 9. http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2009/3193/
10. 10. http://pamirtimes.net/2009/08/17/violent-protests-in-gilgit-over-murder-of-ali-sher-hyderi/
11. 11. http://www.blogcatalog.com/blog/pamir-times/854fb8cae3214331a32604745d595c27
12. 12. http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006&#37;5C05\21\story_21-5-2006_pg3_1
13. 13. http://www.ciaonet.org/wps/icg449/icg449.pdf (pp:16)
14. 14. http://pakistantimes.net/2004/10/14/top2.htm
15. 15. http://www.app.com.pk/en_/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=87988&Itemid=2
16. 16. http://dardistannews.wordpress.com/2009/05/
17. 17. http://pamirtimes.net/2009/05/23/bomb-blast-at-hostel-in-gilgit-city/
18. 18. http://weeklybaang.blogspot.com/2009/04/weekly-baang-karachi-voloum-02-issue-08_3275.html
19. 19. http://dardistannews.wordpress.com/...-asian-human-rights-commission-press-release/
20. 20. http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect...suspected-people-expelled-from-n-areas-gilgit


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## hembo

Azad Kashmir today
By Ahmad Faruqui
Monday, 15 Feb, 2010


Azad Kashmirs future is as murky today as it was in 1947.  File Photo by AFP

Azad Kashmir was created within two months of Pakistans independence with high expectations. Nestled in the mountainous western region that abuts the vale of Kashmir, it forms an archers bow that is about 100 miles long and about 20-40 miles wide.

The Pakistani security elite hoped that an arrow fired from the bow would bring about the instant liberation of the vale of Kashmir from Indian occupation. The first arrow was fired almost within days of creation.

It plunged the entire region of Kashmir into armed conflict. Fourteen months later, a ceasefire sponsored by the United Nations took effect on Jan 1, 1949. The ceasefire line remained stationary despite several attempts to move it. But after the 1971 war which saw the secession of East Pakistan, it was renamed the Line-of-Control (LoC). That militaristic designation persists to this day since the line which separates the two Kashmirs has not been formalised as an international border.

Azad means free and Azad Kashmir was supposed to serve as a model state whose liberty and freedom would inspire rebellion in Indian-administered Kashmir. That did not happen for several reasons. Constitutionally, Azad Kashmir is not a part of Pakistan. But neither is it an independent state. For its entire 62-year history, it has depended on Pakistan for its economic and political survival. It does not even issue its own postage stamps.

Because Islamabad has always exercised its claim on the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir, Azad Kashmir is not counted as a fifth province of Pakistan. But for all practical purposes, Muzaffarabad lives under Islamabads shadow. Its first government was established on Oct 24, 1947 with Sardar Mohammed Ibrahim as president. On Nov 3, 1947, Azad Kashmir sought unsuccessfully to join the United Nations as a member state.

In March 1949, after the dust had settled along the ceasefire line, Azad Kashmir signed a power-sharing arrangement with the Government of Pakistan ceding all authority related to defence, foreign affairs, refugees and the plebiscite to Pakistan.

Pakistan created a Ministry for Kashmir Affairs to look after its newest asset. However, as events would show, the ministry was soon preoccupied with influencing political direction in Azad Kashmir. Not surprisingly, the ministrys directives were not always well received by Azad Kashmiris. At times, they were met with stiff resistance.

In 1955, Pakistan declared martial law in some parts of Azad Kashmir to suppress street violence triggered by the Kashmir Act. In 1957, Pakistan resorted to police action to quell a public meeting that was seeking direct action to create a united and liberated Kashmir. In 1961, President Ayub Khan carried out indirect elections in Azad Kashmir through a Basic Democracies Ordinance which legally only applied to Pakistan, further straining ties with the Azad Kashmiris.

Subsequently, faced with Islamabads dominance in their day-to-day affairs, several Azad Kashmiri leaders started a movement for liberating Indian-held Kashmir not for Pakistan but for creating a separate Kashmiri state. This further aggravated ties with Pakistan. While all this was happening, Jammu and Kashmir was inducted into the Indian union.

In 1965, the Pakistani army launched a covert war inside Indian Kashmir seeking to instigate a popular rebellion. This arrow too missed its target. Instead, it enraged India which launched a strong counter-offensive along the international border with West Pakistan.

Under the weight of the Indian elephant, the Pakistani military hastily called of its operations in Kashmir. The war ended in an UN-brokered ceasefire along the international border with minimal changes in the Kashmiri line. After the war, Pakistan lost its urge to light a fire across the Line of Control (LoC). Matters changed in 1979 when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan and the Pakistani military, with US and Saudi assistance, began training legions of Mujahideen to evict the godless communists.

After a bruised and battered Red Army pulled out of Kabul in 1989, Indian Jammu and Kashmir found itself in the grip of a large-scale revolt. Whether this was a purely indigenous movement or a corollary to events in Kabul continues to enrich scholarly volumes.

Regardless of the cause, the uprising in the vale provided the Kashmir hawks in Pakistans security elite yet another opportunity to press on with their objective. They reactivated their bases in Azad Kashmir and once again decided to fire arrows into Indian Jammu and Kashmir. Soon, freedom fighters, armed and trained allegedly by the Pakistan Army, were rolling across in droves across the LoC.

Azad Kashmir was again in the cross-hairs of armed conflict. Against this backdrop, Pakistan under Gen Ziaul Haq decided to legally separate the geographically much larger Northern Areas of Gilgit and Baltistan from Azad Kashmir. This caused almost as much consternation in the latter as it did in India. The separation of the Northern Areas by Pakistan eliminated all doubts about the sovereignty of Azad Kashmir. With the reactivation of conflict across the Line-of-Control, the quality of life of the Azad Kashmiris was trammelled. Those who did not want to take part in the proxy war became pariahs.

Most of the cross-border infiltration was halted in the wake of 9/11 and the US invasion of Afghanistan. The attack on the Indian parliament in December 2001 was designed to reinvigorate the Kashmir issue but all it did was bring India and Pakistan to the brink of full-scale war in 2002. For a while the Musharraf regime sought to differentiate the struggle for freedom in Kashmir from political acts of terror but its spin failed to gain traction with the world community. Cross-border terrorism was quiet for several years.

The attacks on Mumbai by a group linked to militant activities in Kashmir in November 2008 were an attempt to reignite the conflict but succeeded only in drawing widespread opprobrium. During the past 62 years, the people of Azad Kashmir have been unable to arise out of poverty in large measure because they are caught in the crossfire between India and Pakistan. The land which their elders knew as a mountain paradise has been turned into a living hell.

Of the four million people who inhabit the region, nine of 10 live in extremely impoverished conditions in rural areas. Population growth is excessive, at 2.4 per cent per year, and the average house holds no fewer than seven people. Sadly, Azad Kashmirs future is as murky today as it was in 1947. And the objective for its creation, the liberation of the vale of Kashmir, seems increasingly remote.

ahmadfaruqui@gmail.com


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## hembo

*Hidden Tremors*
Ajai Sahni

In the shadow of the great and natural disaster that has struck Pakistan occupied Kashmir (***) and parts of the North West Frontier Province (NWFP), another tragedy, in this case, fashioned by men, is being played out in the hidden Gilgit-Baltistan region (Northern Areas). Largely unnoticed, Gilgit has been under curfew since October 13, 2005, after a spate of killings that the administration is seeking to project as sectarian strife. Significantly, however, a majority of those killed have been demonstrators who have fallen to the bullets of the state's paramilitary force, the Pakistan Rangers, and sources in Gilgit claim that, contrary to the official position, there is no tension between local Shias and Sunnis, but rather a deliberate effort from the outside, part of a long-drawn campaign, to create mischief in the region.

On October 11, 2005, hired Sunni gunmen opened fire on a group of Shias in Basen, 58 kilometres from Gilgit Town on the Ghezer road, killing two and wounding others. Two of the gunmen escaped, but a third was injured and thereafter arrested by the local police, and taken to the District Hospital, Gilgit. Some documents recovered from his possession indicated that he came from Kohistan in the NWFP.

Shortly thereafter, however, the Pakistani Rangers, on orders from the 'highest quarters', forcibly removed the perpetrator from the hospital, apparently to avoid his identification and interrogation by the local police, which, sources in Gilgit indicate, would have exposed a larger conspiracy. At this stage, a crowd gathered and protests started, with people insisting that the culprit should not be taken away by the Rangers before the local police had interrogated them.

The Pakistan Rangers resorted to strong arm tactics to disperse the protestors, and also kidnapped one of the student protestors, 15-year old Maqsood Hussain. The next day, October 12, his body was recovered, sparking widespread outrage in the town. On October 13, Maqsood Hussain's fellow students and the townspeople organised a demonstration to protest his death in the Rangers' custody. The demonstration was peaceful, but, after the protestors began to disperse, the Rangers opened fire, killing seven persons, including three women.

The dead also included a former Chairman of the Municipal Committee, Gilgit, who was allegedly killed in his house. The death toll subsequently rose to twelve, after another five bodies were found in different parts of the city &#8211; including those of two Rangers. In a Press Release of October 14, 2005, the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) noted that the Rangers had opened fire "after the protesters had dispersed and were returning home", and observed that the shooting appeared to follow "a distinct pattern of brutality and violence towards citizens".

In a purported bid to control the situation, the authorities arrested religious leaders of both the Shia and Sunni sect, though no clashes between the communities had been reported. The arrested leaders included, among Shias, Agha Rahat Al-Husaini, Shaikh Mirza Ali, Shaikh Nayyar Abbas, former Northern Areas Legislative Council (NALC) Member, Deedar Ali; and among the Sunnis, Maulana Qazi Nisar Ahmed, Chief of the Tanzeem Ahle Sunnat; Maulana Hussain Ahmad, Maulana Khalil Ahmad and NALC member Himayatullah Khan.
>

The 'pattern of brutality and violence' has been clearly in evidence over the past year, and according to various estimates, close to a hundred persons have been killed in Gilgit-Baltistan over the past year (data compiled by the Institute for Conflict Management for year 2005, 81 persons had been killed till October 28) overwhelmingly in clashes with state Forces, but also in terrorist attacks engineered by 'outsiders', as well as retaliatory attacks by local forces.

Earlier, on September 10, 2005, Bilal Hussain of Sonikot Village, Gilgit, a teacher at the Gilgit High School No. 2, had been abducted in Gilgit, near Hotel Jamal, allegedly by officials of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI). No charges have been brought against Bilal Hussain, nor has the Government declared his detention. He has not, however, been heard of since his abduction.

Unconfirmed reports suggest that there are indications of further trouble brewing in the region, with Shia youth congregating in Danyore on the outskirts of Gilgit, awaiting instructions from their spiritual leaders to march in protest on Gilgit. There are also reports of Sunnis having gathered in Jaglote and Chilas, demanding the release of their detained leaders.

Shia women also blocked the Karakoram Highway at several places to protest the presence of the Rangers in Gilgit. The women wanted regular soldiers to replace the paramilitary Rangers, accusing the latter of bias and abuse of their sweeping powers. Similarly, Shia agitators from the Hunza and Nagar Valleys of Gilgit District issued an 'ultimatum', on October 20, demanding that the Northern Areas administration to curb the powers of the Rangers. Some 25,000 Shia demonstrators said they would continue their protests until the powers of the Rangers were curtailed and they were replaced by another neutral and impartial force. The protestors also demanded that, if the Northern Areas Deputy Chief Executive, the NALC Speaker, and other members of the NALC were powerless, they should resign.

In Islamabad, the Shia Student Action Committed staged a demonstration at Aabpara Chowk on October 19, 2005, to protest against the Government's actions in Gilgit-Baltistan, and to demand the release of arrested persons. The demonstrators displayed pictures of the slain Shia leader from the region, Agha Ziauddin Rizvi, and of his successor, Agha Syed Rahat Hussain al Hussaini, who is under detention. Earlier, on October 17, leading Shia clerics of various seminaries and organisations had threatened the Government with a nationwide campaign of agitation if Rangers were not removed from Gilgit and action is not taken against those who killed civilians. Addressing a press conference at the Lahore Press Club, representatives of the Mujma-e-Ahle Bait, Jamiatul Muntazir, Imamia Students Organisation, Imamia Organisation, Imamia Alliance, Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, and other organisations, blamed government agencies for incidents of sectarian violence in the Gilgit.

Significantly, 41 of the persons who have been detained (at the barracks built for the Northern Areas Scouts in Sakwar) after the October 11 clashes, went on a hunger strike against maltreatment and inadequate facilities in the barracks. The detainees, drawn from both the sects, jointly displayed handwritten placards outside their cells with the slogan, "Sunni-Shia Ittehad (Unity) for hunger strike".

Protests have now become a continuous process, on a near-daily basis, in the region, and threaten to snowball into a wider movement. However, given the past record, these may well attract extreme repression from state agencies.
>

Crucially, a jirga, formed on September 21, 2005, and headed by the NALC Speaker, Malik Muhammad Miskeen, had drafted an agreement to be signed by top local Sunni and Shia leaders, and top Shia cleric, Agha Rahat al Hussaini (now detained) had approved the draft agreement. The Sunni leader, Maulana Qazi Nisar, who was travelling, was to sign the agreement on his return to Gilgit, but was thwarted by the current spate of violence.

The Pakistan Rangers from Punjab were deployed in Gilgit after disturbances in the wake of the assassination of Shia leader Agha Ziauddin, on January 8, 2005, to add to the Frontier Constabulary that was already deployed in the area. A bulk of Northern Light Infantry (NLI) units, composed largely of locals (though officered by 'outsiders', mainly Punjabis), had been moved out of the region and deployed in Punjab and Waziristan. Only four NLI battalions out of 15 remain in Gilgit-Baltistan.

The Pakistani administration has long been involved in a campaign that seeks to alter the demographic profile of the region, and to reduce the local Shia and Ismaili populations to a minority in Gilgit-Baltistan. In the Gilgit and Skardu areas, large tracts of land have been allotted to non-locals, violating the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan (UNCIP) resolutions and the Jammu and Kashmir State Subject Rule, and outsiders have also purchased large tracts of land. One unofficial estimate suggest that over 30,000 Gilgit residents have fled the city and its suburbs since 2000, in the wake of orchestrated incidents of sectarian strife, followed by discriminatory and repressive action by the state Forces. Gilgit-Baltistan remains the poorest and most backward area in Pakistan, and is acutely lacking in education and infrastructure, with no more than a negligible presence of daily newspapers, radio or TV stations.

The Pakistani establishment has long supported an anti-Shia programme in this region. A local insurrection broke out in Gilgit in May 1988 and in order to suppress the rebellion, the Special Services Group of the Pakistani Army based in Khapalu was dispatched. Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf, then a young Brigadier, was in charge of the operations, in which he used Sunni tribal irregulars to execute a brutal pogrom against the locals. Truckloads of Sunni tribals were sent in from the Afghan border to the region, and they indulged in anti-Shia brutalities unprecedented in Pakistan's history. After eight days of sustained violence, the Army 'stepped in' to restore peace. Later on, the Shia population was further alarmed when large numbers of Sunnis were brought in from Punjab and the NWFP to settle in Gilgit.

The anti-Shia pogrom resurfaced in 1993, when sectarian riots started again in Gilgit, leading to the death of 20 Shias. Year 2003 again saw trouble brewing in the Northern Areas over the Islamic textbooks that the Pakistan Ministry of Education has issued as part of the curriculum for the schools in the region. According to Shia community leaders, the textbooks promote Sunni thought and values and are an attempt to promote sectarian hatred between the two sects. Almost everyday, hundreds of primary and secondary school students boycott classes and stage protest rallies in Gilgit. Protests and violence have been simmering in the region since.

But the troubles of Gilgit-Baltistan, and the repeated cycles of state repression, have remained concealed behind an iron veil that has been pulled across the region by Islamabad, reinforced by international indifference to, and ignorance of, the plight of the people. In a significant break from the past, the Indian Ministry of External Affairs did express concern over the "severe repressive measures being taken against legitimate protests and demonstrations", in the aftermath of the October 11-13 violence.

Nevertheless, despite a long history of protests, Gilgit-Baltistan remains a neglected centre of inequity. As Abdul Hamid Khan, Chairman, Balawaristan National Front (BNF), expresses it, "International attention is focussed only on those political concerns that appear in the international media. Unfortunately, the international Press, particularly Western Press, is not bothered with a peaceful struggle. Only when a struggle turns into an armed struggle does it attract media attention. The people of Balawaristan (Pakistan Occupied Gilgit Baltistan) believe in peaceful political struggle, and that unfortunately does not attract the attention of the world community."

Ajai Sahni is Editor, SAIR; Executive Director, Institute for Conflict Management. Courtesy, the South Asia Intelligence Review of the South Asia Terrorism Portal


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## hembo

deleted!! duplicate post.................


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## pak-yes

Bro by Posting this thread you have negated your own signature and laid the foundations of a long war.

You can Post what ever Propaganda you want but unlike you we haven't killed 100,000 Innocents in Kashmir.


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## weaponx

pak-yes said:


> Bro by Posting this thread you have negated your own signature and laid the foundations of a long war.
> 
> You can Post what ever Propaganda you want but unlike you we haven't killed 100,000 Innocents in Kashmir.



hello some of these articles has been taken from ur pakistan newspapers..

so stop ur usual dialogues "India's propaganda"..coz when u post youtube vids which are anti-india in nature, they r "truths"...where as articles from ur newspapers are India's Propaganda..


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## pak-yes

Ya Ya you can post one video of a few dissatisfied Citizens we can post thousands of videos of Thousands of people marching and Chanting Anti India.


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## dabong1

So why dont we put it to the test and have vote on the issue of kashmir and see who the people of kashmir choose.......pakistan or india.
You can post all the links you want but the only one that counts is the one when your willing to have election under the UN.
Lets see what the people want ,after all your pretty sure that the pak govt doesnt treat the people of AJK well and we say the people in IOK are not treated well......put your money whee your mouth is and back a UN vote on the issue......or ru scared that all BS fall apart?


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## pak-yes

> So why dont we put it to the test and have vote on the issue of kashmir and see who the people of kashmir choose.......pakistan or india.
> You can post all the links you want but the only one that counts is the one when your willing to have election under the UN.
> Lets see what the people want ,after all your pretty sure that the pak govt doesnt treat the people of AJK well and we say the people in IOK are not treated well......put your money whee your mouth is and back a UN vote on the issue......or ru scared that all BS fall apart?



Seems only Indians have a problem with this.We have been screaming for UN for last 6 decades.


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## hembo

pak-yes said:


> Bro by Posting this thread you have negated your own signature and laid the foundations of a long war.
> 
> You can Post what ever Propaganda you want but unlike you we haven't killed 100,000 Innocents in Kashmir.



Bro, my intention was not to promote any war. Everyone disects Indian Held part but no one ever talks about the other part. I just wanted the other part to be discussed as well. And no better way to grab people's attention then posting few news like these, lol. BTW, most of the sources are independent including Dawn, Pakistan.

In any case, it is far better to have a cyber war than those actual wars we have been fighting over Kashmir. At least no one gets hurts. And no Kashmiri gets violated, either by the GOI or the GOP, what say??


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## hembo

pak-yes said:


> Bro by Posting this thread you have negated your own signature and laid the foundations of a long war.
> 
> You can Post what ever Propaganda you want but unlike you we haven't killed 100,000 Innocents in Kashmir.



Bro, my intention was not to promote any war. Everyone disects Indian Held part but no one ever talks about the other part. I just wanted the other part to be discussed as well. And no better way to grab people's attention then posting few news like these, lol. BTW, most of the sources are independent including Dawn, Pakistan.

In any case, it is far better to have a cyber war than those actual wars we have been fighting over Kashmir. At least no one gets hurts. And no Kashmiri gets violated, either by the GOI or the GOP, what say??


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## HAIDER

SRINAGAR: At least two dozen people including 12 policemen were hurt on Tuesday in Muslim-majority Indian-administered Kashmir when police clashed with residents mourning the deaths of two rebels, officials said.

The violence erupted south of the Kashmiri summer capital Srinagar after thousands joined the funeral procession of one of two rebels killed in a gun battle with soldiers the previous day, a police officer said.

Over two dozen people were injured, 12 of them policemen, the officer said, adding four of the demonstrators suffered bullet wounds when police opened fire after being pelted with stones.

Police had used teargas and batons in an attempt to disperse the mourners who were chanting we want freedom and Allah is great, said locals near Kulgam town, 70 kilometres south of Srinagar.

The marchers defied a ban on demonstrations in the Muslim-majority Indian-administered Kashmir valley, said the officer, who asked not to be named.
DAWN.COM | World | Over 20 injured in fresh Kashmir violence


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## Halaku Khan



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## hembo

Before this thread too gets closed or deleted (judging by the rate all threads related to Azad Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan getting either deleted or closed), I just one to make one quick point:

Why do we people not like to talk about the other part of Kashmir, its people, its developments, its news. Is it all classified like the supposed Chinese military base there. What about these peoples aspirations and hopes?

Aren't discussions better then wars. And isn't discussion a two way communication rather then one sided sermons. What are we afraid of?


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## TaimiKhan

Halaku Khan said:


> YouTube - Kashmir News - Women in Gilgit Protest Atrocities of Pakistani Army



 

Pathetic Indian propaganda. 

First the orator says, the guy was killed on a polling station, common sense dictates (which the Indians lack), it was a political violence, but to make use of the video, the name of Pak Army had to be brought in. 

And were the Indian propagandists not wearing glasses to have missed the Pakistani flag  being flown in the background. 

After seeing this video, i have no doubts the printing of PAF Ex-CAS picture instead of the Indian AC, wasn't a mistake, but an act to show the dumbness of the Indian propagandists.

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## dabong1

Halaku Khan said:


> YouTube - Kashmir News - Women in Gilgit Protest Atrocities of Pakistani Army



The protest was about somebody getting shot near at polling station by one rival member of the other party.......where are the woman protesting the "atrocities of Pakistani Army"?

PS.... we see two policeman relaxing near the crowd and nobody attacking anybody unlike IOK where the picture would have been of thousands off people from a cross section of the kashmiri population being attacked by the indian occupation army.

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## me_itsme

wtf!! deres a secret chineese base dere??


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## dabong1

This must be the 10th time some indian has posted this article
http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-images-multimedia/47326-azad-kashmir-today-2.html#post673884

I dont think everything the pak-indo media says is the absolute truth.
This might be a bit off topic but i recall a report in the the media where a report Commissioned by the Ministry of Women and Child Development found that 53&#37; of indian children have suffrered sexual abuse http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6539027.stm.........even though this report is by indians i dont belive it is true,common sense tells me this report must be flawed and i am pretty sure also that most people would agree.Now somebody telling me that 9 out 10 people in the rural areas of AJK live in "extremely impoverished conditions in rural areas" strikes me as as bit of strange number to come to.....what does mean he by "extremely impoverished conditions"?whats the criteria you have to fill to fall into the catagory of extremely impoverished conditions?
A few things come to mind..literacy rate...access to water....electrification...health ect.

Official Website of Planning and Development Department - AJK
Based upon the population census of 1998 and taking into account the annual increase, the current population is estimated at 3.513 million with roughly 88% living in rural areas. Population density is 270 per sq. km. against 187 in Pakistan. Northern AJ&K being mostly mountainous is economically under developed. Some areas have inadequate infrastructure and population is mostly dependent upon the rural economy & remittances from abroad......where not afraid at looking at our short comings.


From my understanding the literacy rate is between 62% to 73%
literacy rate in Azad Kashmir was 62% in 2004
Kashmir can fulfill Pakistan&#8217;s power needs: Atiq

Access to water
In the urban areas approximately 74% population has been provided piped water supply whereas an estimated 65% rural population gets water supply facilities through stand posts. The rural water supply is managed by the Local Government & Rural Development Department through community participation where entire operation & maintenance cost is born by the users.
Official Website of Planning and Development Department - AJK

From a personal point of view the houses and villages around my area have piped water and the building costs where fully paid for by the govt.


Electrification
Rural electrification has also been one of the major areas of thrust and almost 84% population of the area has been provided electricity
Official Website of Planning and Development Department - AJK

Health
Health has been another priority sector and at least one Basic Health Unit has been provided at the level of Union Council. However, the level of specialized health services in the area are not satisfactory because there is only one bed for 2092 persons in AJK as compared to a bed for 1310 at National level.(a point you can pick up on) However, EPI coverage in AJK is well over 89%. To improve the health facilities in the area, the Health Sector infrastructure is being upgraded and more facilities are being added.......if i can just add that at the present moment there are numerous projects taking place other then the govt ones where free healthcare is given and new hospitals are being built by people living abroad.
dabong1 is online now Report Post Thanks


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## dabong1

Houses in AJK Photo Gallery by Gharib Hanif at pbase.com

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## PWFI

my request to pakdefece, plese make a special threat for Indian jokes! thanks!


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## UnitedPak

If anyone needs to familiarise themselves with UN resolutions, it would be our Indian guests.



> Princely states enjoyed three options: accession to India, accession to Pakistan, or independence. *But the choice, according to India's Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru and tacitly endorsed by the British, was to be made by popular referendum in cases where the creed of the ruler varied from the religion of the majority.* *That fundamental democratic principle had been sternly applied by Nehru with military means in Hyderabad and Junagadh* where the rulers were Muslim but their inhabitants largely Hindu. Kashmir presented a converse case: the Maharaja was Hindu but the majority subscribed to Islam.
> 
> On November 2, 1947, Prime Minister Nehru reiterated, We have declared that the fate of Kashmir is ultimately to be decided by the people. That pledge we have given and the Maharaja supported it, not only to the people of Kashmir but to the world. *We will not and cannot back out of it.*"

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## Peshwa

Windjammer said:


> *Get your facts right first, the Indian part is the occupied Kashmir, the rest is refered to as AZAD KASHMIR*.
> Ever wondered why there are always demos, strikes, abduction and killing and rapes etc etc taking place on daily basis in the Indian held Kashmir, *where as Azad Kashmir is the most peaceful part on this side of the border.* ? But i guess it takes high moral values to address this question.



Calling a donkey a stallion does not change its existance.....only makes one look stupid.....

LOL....on part 2 of your statement....Why wouldnt the terror hub of Kashmir be peaceful....you dont crap where you eat!!!

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## HAIDER

Indian minister delivering this statement just putting political pressure on Pakistan, so Pakistan accept the LOC has permanent border. Otherwise External minister has no value only lip service. Sooner or later Kashmir will dislodge from Indian rocket anyway. Its just matter of time.


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## toxic_pus

UnitedPak said:


> If anyone needs to familiarise themselves with UN resolutions, it would be our Indian guests.
> 
> 
> 
> the choice, according to India's Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru and tacitly endorsed by the British, was to be *made by popular referendum in cases where the creed of the ruler varied from the religion of the majority*.
Click to expand...

Not really. 'Referendum' was never made the mechanism to exercise the 'choice'. It was only upto the ruler of the Princely State to make that decision and it was to be based on 'geographical contiguity'. 

The accession of Princely States had nothing to do with religion.

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## Omar1984

*Indian criticism of China&#8217;s help in Kashmir unfair: Nawaz 
​*
Pakistan Muslim League - Nawaz (PML-N) chief Nawaz Sharif. &#8212; File photo 


BEIJING: Pakistan has the right to carry out development activities in Kashmir and establish economic cooperation with China for its development, visiting former premier Nawaz Sharif said during his visit to China.

Sharif, the chief of the Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N), the opposition party in Pakistan, made the remarks appeared in China Daily while referring to an earlier report from India, which criticised China's involvement in ongoing projects in Azad Kashmir.

&#8220;The criticism is not fair. It is the basic right and requirement for Pakistanis in the Kashmir area to benefit from such projects and no one can deprive them of these rights,&#8221; Sharif said.

According to the website of the Council on Foreign Relations, there are about 10,000 Chinese workers engaged in 120 projects in Pakistan. Chinese investment there &#8212; including heavy engineering, power generation, mining, and telecommunications &#8212; was valued at $4 billion in 2007 and is expected to rise to $15 billion during 2010.

&#8220;Pakistan and India have long outstanding issues that need to be solved, and we are thankful for China's support for Pakistan on the Kashmir issue,&#8221; the newspaper quoted Nawaz Sharif as saying.

The opposition leader added that India and Pakistan have remained engaged in an &#8220;unnecessary and unproductive&#8221; arms race during the past 60 years and both have spent billions of dollars on military hardware instead of diverting this amount for the social welfare of their people.

Sharif stressed that China is Pakistan&#8217;s &#8220;most reliable friend&#8221; and the friendship between the two countries is &#8220;time-tested&#8221; and will remain strong. &#8212; APP




And Nawaz Sharif is Kashmiri himself.

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## dabong1

toxic_pus said:


> Not really. 'Referendum' was never made the mechanism to exercise the 'choice'. It was only upto the ruler of the Princely State to make that decision and it was to be based on 'geographical contiguity'.



So you agree that junagarh and the other Princely State that chose pakistan should be given back to pakistan?



toxic_pus said:


> The accession of Princely States had nothing to do with religion.



So its just an amazing coincidence that the majority muslim areas choose to come together and form pakistan and the majority hindu areas made up india.

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## Icarus

balbir pasha said:


> Reacting strongly to remarks by so-called Chief Minister of Gilgit-Baltistan, India said Pakistan's actions regarding the area in the past few months cannot camouflage its illegal occupation of that part of Jammu and Kashmir which is "completely unacceptable".
> 
> "We have seen media reports regarding remarks of the so-called Chief Minister of Gilgit-Baltistan in which he said that Gilgit-Baltistan had become the 'fifth province' of Pakistan and henceforth had no connection to Kashmir," the official spokesman of the Ministry of External Affairs said in a statement here.
> 
> The entire state of Jammu and Kashmir is an integral part of India by virtue of its accession to India in 1947, he said. Any action to alter the status of any part of the territory under the "illegal occupation of Pakistan has no legal basis whatsoever, and is completely unacceptable," he said.
> 
> "Pakistan's actions regarding Gilgit-Baltistan in the past few months cannot camouflage its illegal occupation of part of the state of Jammu and Kashmir, nor can they hide the denial of basic rights to the people in that part for the past six decades," the spokesman said.
> 
> The newly-elected "Chief Minister" of Gilgit-Baltistan Mehdi Shah had said that the people of the area had decided their accession to Pakistan after getting freedom from 'Dogra rule' and now the region has become the fifth province of Pakistan and has no connection with Kashmir.
> 
> - Indian express



Hahahaha, illegal occupation my foot............Don't these Indian Express faggots know that Gilgit broke away from Kashmir, when it was being overrun by Indian troops as a result of a rebellion BY THE PEOPLE in favour of Pakistan ?
If you want to talk about illegal occupation, tell me why India won't hold a plebiscite in Indian Occupied Jammu & Kashmir ?


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## toxic_pus

dabong1 said:


> So you agree that junagarh and the other Princely State that chose pakistan should be given back to pakistan?


Which part of 'geographical contiguity' do you not understand? 

But I guess then you also agree that whole of Kashmir belongs to India and Pakistan is illegally occupying whatever it is occupying. 



> So its just an amazing coincidence that the majority muslim areas choose to come together and form pakistan and the majority hindu areas made up india.


Fail. 

The Princely States were never a part of the British India and the 'two nation theory' was conjured up for the British India.

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## Veer

taimikhan said:


> Pathetic Indian propaganda.
> 
> First the orator says, the guy was killed on a polling station, common sense dictates (which the Indians lack), it was a political violence, but to make use of the video, the name of Pak Army had to be brought in.
> 
> And were the Indian propagandists not wearing glasses to have missed the Pakistani flag  being flown in the background.
> 
> After seeing this video, i have no doubts the printing of PAF Ex-CAS picture instead of the Indian AC, wasn't a mistake, but an act to show the dumbness of the Indian propagandists.



But u see, in the Pakistan every death even by accident, due to crime, dispute between brothers Flashed as Indian atrocities.

Recently there was a rape then as it is typical to India being a democracy people protest.

Even if their is breakdown in power supply etc.

But in Pakistan it makes breaking news as suppression or atrocities by Army.

As army have nothing to do. That's called typical propaganda.


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## kashith

mr42O said:


> 6 province is Kashmir so get ready



29th state is Pakistan so you be ready

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## Icarus

toxic_pus said:


> Which part of 'geographical contiguity' do you not understand?
> 
> But I guess then you also agree that whole of Kashmir belongs to India and Pakistan is illegally occupying whatever it is occupying.
> 
> 
> Fail.
> 
> The Princely States were never a part of the British India and the 'two nation theory' was conjured up for the British India.



Geographical Continuity ? That sounds almost ironical coming from you since Kasmir is linked to India only by one highway !!!!!!!
The Leh-Manali Highway.................


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## Icarus

kashith said:


> 29th state is Pakistan so you be ready



Don't you have enough unsatisfied states already ?
List of active autonomist and secessionist movements - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## blueoval79

Kakgeta said:


> Geographical Continuity ? That sounds almost ironical coming from you since *Kasmir is linked to India only by one highway !!!!!!!
> The Leh-Manali Highway.................*



This is news to me:

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## Icarus

blueoval79 said:


> This is news to me:



Some map, they even got the spellings of road wrong !!!!!!!!!
By the way, i think either you or I need a monitor with higher resolution, as i can see only one highway and one "Other Road" on my PC.


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## blueoval79

Kakgeta said:


> Some map, they even got the spellings of road wrong !!!!!!!!!



Whatever....but it has the lines that signify Roads....or is it to difficult to comprehend:

If it is , I have got help for you:


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## Icarus

blueoval79 said:


> Whatever....but it has the lines that signify Roads....or is it to difficult to comprehend:
> 
> If it is , I have got help for you:



Again only one highway and this time, two "Major Roads".
Highway is still only one.


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## booo

NH7 is the national highway and a part of national corridor express way starts from Kashmir and ends at Kanyakumari. 

There you go, from the NHAI site itself


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## Icarus

Read this:
National Highway 1D (India) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
National Highway 1D (NH 1D), also known as Srinagar-Leh Highway, is a National Highway entirely within the state of Jammu & Kashmir in North India that connects Srinagar to Leh in Ladakh. *It is one of the only two roads that connect Ladakh with the rest of India,* the other being Leh-Manali Highway. The Srinagar-Leh Highway was declared as National Highway in 2006.
The old Central Asian trade route Srinagar-Leh-Yarkand was also known as the Treaty Road, after a commercial treaty signed in 1870 between maharaja Ranbir Singh and T.D. Forsyth.


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## PlanetWarrior

Kashmir has an easy solution to it. Negotiate joint construction of dams. Then remove all troops (both Pakistan and India) and set a date for a referendum. Thereafter respect the outcome. Alternatively set a referendum for each area of Kashmir to decide who wants to do what and accept the outcome. Is all the bickering and bombing and killing in Kashmir really worth the outcome ?

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## blueoval79

Kakgeta said:


> Read this:
> National Highway 1D (India) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> National Highway 1D (NH 1D), also known as Srinagar-Leh Highway, is a National Highway entirely within the state of Jammu & Kashmir in North India that connects Srinagar to Leh in Ladakh. *It is one of the only two roads that connect Ladakh with the rest of India,* the other being Leh-Manali Highway. The Srinagar-Leh Highway was declared as National Highway in 2006.
> The old Central Asian trade route Srinagar-Leh-Yarkand was also known as the Treaty Road, after a commercial treaty signed in 1870 between maharaja Ranbir Singh and T.D. Forsyth.




What is NH 1 A....any explanation.
So now the number of road links has increased to two... just after 2 Posts.


How does it matter:

In case you missed: There is a train that connects Jammu and Kashmir...and then rest of India


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## Icarus

blueoval79 said:


> What is NH 1 A....any explanation.
> So now the number of road links has increased to two... just after 2 Posts.
> 
> 
> How does it matter:
> 
> In case you missed: There is a train that connects Jammu and Kashmir...and then rest of India



It says the number of roads are two, highway is still only one.


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## blueoval79

Kakgeta said:


> It says the number of roads are two, highway is still only one.




How does it matter...There are enough small State Highways that are interlinked..... 


By the way..there is only one highway connecting India from Northeastern state....


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## Icarus

blueoval79 said:


> What is NH 1 A....any explanation.
> So now the number of road links has increased to two... just after 2 Posts.
> 
> 
> How does it matter:
> 
> *In case you missed: There is a train that connects Jammu and Kashmir...and then rest of India*



That, i did not know.............


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## tridev

ice_man said:


> the nawab of junagadh & hyderabad decided to be with pakistan so should i also say that it is & it would forever be a part of pakistan???
> 
> i hate this indian drama that starts of every now & then about cheap bollywood statements by there general kapoor where he thinks he is a hero who can take on china & pakistan & destroy them both simultaneously! this is followed by such outlandish statements about gilgit & baltistan!
> 
> i think indians need to relax & ACCEPT PAKISTAN AS A SOVERIGN COUNTRY!




Please also accept this fact

India considers Pak as a soverign country.
Kashmir is part of India.
We don't give a damn about what you think just the way you don't give a damn about us.
No matter what India will never allow some bunch of terrorists or so called freedom fighters to take Kashmir away from us.
Just the way you think we are dreaming...we think you are too
Try for 1000 years but Kashmir will be always with India.
Try force or farce.....Like Israel we don't give a damn....we will keep it as we did for the last 60 years
Keep raising it in all forums like a crying child...but we don't give a Damn

Reactions: Like Like:
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## tridev

Kakgeta said:


> That, i did not know.............



Well now you know.....There are many things that you maynot know. One of them is that we Indians have had so many internal strifes since independence that we have adopted and adapted to finding a unique innovative solution to it. We had so called uprising in west bengal, then Madhya pradesh then punjab then south India and now naxals and maoists. Kashmir remains high too. But we have always come on top after a long struggle. We do it by doing a lot of things which are possible only in a democracy. we suffer but we persevere and finally succeed. In Kashmir too we are doing a lot of stuff including developing new infrastructure, economic packages, tourism and ofcourse use force whereever required. We actually don't give a damn about what others say....we have a goal and we will achieve it....terrorists or no terrorists....freedom fighters or no freedom fighters...pakistan or no pakistan.....we will keep kashmir and bring it back to its past glory......simple....we don't give a damn...let others try what they have to...we are very clear on our objectives...we have the men, money and metal


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## Icarus

tridev said:


> Well now you know.....There are many things that you maynot know. One of them is that we Indians have had so many internal strifes since independence that we have adopted and adapted to finding a unique innovative solution to it. We had so called uprising in west bengal, then Madhya pradesh then punjab then south India and now naxals and maoists. Kashmir remains high too. But we have always come on top after a long struggle. We do it by doing a lot of things which are possible only in a democracy. we suffer but we persevere and finally succeed. In Kashmir too we are doing a lot of stuff including developing new infrastructure, economic packages, tourism and ofcourse use force whereever required. We actually don't give a damn about what others say....we have a goal and we will achieve it....terrorists or no terrorists....freedom fighters or no freedom fighters...pakistan or no pakistan.....we will keep kashmir and bring it back to its past glory......simple....we don't give a damn...let others try what they have to...we are very clear on our objectives...we have the men, money and metal



Quite a passionate speech there, but don't you think that you are putting a little too much on Pakistan, after all, it's not Pakistanis protesting on the streets of Kashmir for independence, they are Kashmiris.


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## afriend

Asim Aquil said:


> Pakistan is ready for Plebiscite even in Gilgit-Baltistan. India is the only one that is afraid to ask Kashmiris what they want.



Why because india dosent instigate people in that part to revolt against your occupation. We don't support terrorists or terrorist activities. 

So if we are talking about plebiscite after adding fuel to the fire, do you tihnk india can accept that hypocracy.

so lets forget about the kashmir dispute for now, try to bridge the trust deficit we share.. and the solutions for rest of the problem including kashmir will follow. If we sit on each side of the table with hate and prejudice towards our current stand(which is the result of many years mistrust and hate) then nothing is going to happen.

So some sincere steps have to be taken by pakistan and india.. pakistan by reigning in on the so CALLED FREEDOM FIGHTERS who kill innocent people.. india should respond by removing troops from the valley. The above steps can happen only after we have more people to people contact.. discussions...!


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## tridev

Kakgeta said:


> Quite a passionate speech there, but don't you think that you are putting a little too much on Pakistan, after all, it's not Pakistanis protesting on the streets of Kashmir for independence, they are Kashmiris.



Not putting it on anyone including Pakistan. All I am saying is that we don't give a damn about who is crying hoarse on or off the street. In a democracy everyone has a right to shout at the top of their voices....But the best chance is to throw out the government and elect your own people during elections. Then your own leaders will look into your problems. But if the tought is to use force to get your wish list then keep trying. India faces such protests in many parts...but as a mature democracy we have to accomodate every view and respectfully listen to everyone. Thats the beauty of the system. As a common man i can also air my views in many forums against the government. But I cannot take law into my hands and start killing and terrorising people. This is not done. Will be dealt with an iron hand. plain and simple.


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## Halaku Khan

*An enclave on the boil*

RAHUL BEDI 
in New Delhi







Discontentment is mounting in the Northern Areas, once a part of Kashmir, where Pakistan has tried to suppress regional aspirations by enforcing draconian laws and by changing the demographic pattern by settling Sunni Muslims from Punjab and the northeast.

WHILE the highly publicised 56-year-old dispute over Jammu and Kashmir rages between nuclear rivals India and Pakistan, the simmering discontent in Pakistan's remote Northern Areas (N.A.), which once formed part of the troubled principality, has largely gone unnoticed.



This strategic, picturesque and environmentally diverse region adjoining China and the Central Asian Republics (CARs), which is dominated by Shias and Ismaili Muslims who are followers of the Agha Khan, has remained under tight Pakistani military control for over five decades. It is out of bounds to outsiders including journalists, except for occasional "guided tours" closely monitored by the Army and the intelligence agencies. Because of this, little about the rumblings in the region becomes known.

The N.A.'s 2.8 million residents, spread across Gilgit, Diamir, Baltistan, Ghizer and Ghanche districts, which cover 44,800 square kilometres, are the only people in Pakistan whose status remains unspecified. They continue to be deprived of the fundamental, legal, political and civil rights that are guaranteed to the rest of the country by Pakistan's Constitution. The entire region is administered by the repressive Frontier Crime Regulations (FCR), which were framed during the Colonial era and which make it mandatory for all residents to report regularly to local intelligence personnel and stipulate that all movement from one village to another has to be reported. Consequently, their resentment has been steadily growing.

Persistent denial of educational and economic opportunities for the region and the absence of any infrastructural facilities such as hospitals and colleges have further strengthened Islamabad's stranglehold over the N.A. The region has a near negligible presence of daily newspapers and radio or television stations. The few publications that exist are subject to state control and are frequently shut down for airing "subversive" demands such as human rights, accountability and political freedom.

The breathtakingly beautiful N.A. is home to eight mountain peaks between 24,000 and 28,000 feet (7,200 to 8,400 metres) high, including the K2, the world's second highest peak. But little of this is exploited to benefit the local people. "We want access to our own resources, which is our right," Inayatullah of the Engineers Forum of Gilgit-Baltistan said at one of the first ever public seminars by N.A. leaders permitted by the Pakistani establishment, in the garrison town of Rawalpindi last year.

Accusing Islamabad of perpetuating "Agency Raj" or control over the region by the military and the intelligence services, members of the 12-party Gilgit Baltistan National Alliance (GBNA) objected to the N.A. being colonised by outsiders, mostly Sunni Muslims from Punjab and the North West Frontier Province (NWFP), and demanded a greater say in deciding its future.

Security analysts say Islamabad is concerned that the mounting restlessness could impinge negatively on vital national security concerns. The Karakoram highway, which snakes through the N.A., links Pakistan to its military and nuclear ally China via the Khunjerab Pass, one of the worlds highest passes. The Indus and Jhelum rivers, Pakistan's main water sources, meander through the area. Any attempt at disrupting the flow of the rivers in the N.A. could trigger drought in several parts of the country, parts of which are already parched and close to becoming deserts because of Islamabad's short-sighted water management and inter-province disputes.

THE complex history of the N. A. is intricately linked to the Kashmir dispute. After Independence in 1947, Kashmir's Hindu ruler Maharaja Hari Singh feebly tried to regain control over the turbulent area, then known as the Gilgit Agency and controlled by the Gilgit Scouts, one of the several militias raised by the colonial administration to exercise at least limited suzerainty over far-flung and turbulent regions of the vast empire.

But pro-Islamic zeal and incitement by the British commander of the Gilgit Scouts led to the region breaking away from Kashmir to form the independent People's Republic of Baltistan and Gilgit. This, however, lasted a mere 17 days, as the leaders of the rebellion in a fit of religious zeal handed over the territory on November 1, 1947, to the newly formed Pakistan. Over the years, following decades of repression by Islamabad, November 1 is observed as a day of repentance in the N.A. when slogans in support of independence from federal control are raised openly.

Recognising its strategic importance and unsure of how the Kashmir dispute would unravel, Pakistan almost immediately renamed this region the Northern Areas and separated it from the rest of Kashmir, which it occupied and called it "Azad" or free Kashmir. Azad Kashmir - which India terms Azad Kashmir (***) - included a 6,400 sq km sliver of land around the capital Muzaffarabad and the other main town Mirpur, while the N. A. was at least seven times larger. India controls two-thirds of Kashmir.

In 1949, Pakistan separated the administration of the N.A. from *** and introduced the draconian FCR. And, though *** was provided a figurehead administration, which included a Sadr (President) and a Vazir-e-Azam (Prime Minister) and a modicum of political activity, albeit tightly controlled by the federal government, the N.A. is still administered by a toothless council, headed by a Deputy Commissioner appointed by Islamabad.

Islamabad is determined to `disengage' the N.A. from ***. Security analysts say that the Pakistani military will go to any length to crush any independence movement in the N.A. as it cannot afford the area breaking away or becoming part of the larger Kashmir question.

"While Pakistan-backed militancy has focussed the international spotlight on the Kashmir valley, India has failed to expose clearly Pakistan's weaknesses in the N.A.," a security official said. If India's tenuous claims over Kashmir form the basis of Pakistan's argument to gain control of the Muslim-majority State, then the hatred of the people of the N.A. towards Islamabad must also be factored into the dispute, he added.

In 1963, in violation of all agreements, approximately a third of the N.A., the Shaksgam valley, was gifted to China under the Sino-Pakistan Boundary Agreement, which stipulated that the deal was subject to a final settlement of the Kashmir issue between India and Pakistan. Thereafter China and Pakistan built the Karakoram military highway on the ceded territory, linking Islamabad with Kashgar in Xinjiang. And though the chances of renegotiating this arbitrary land transfer are remote, Pakistan remained wary of the local Shias, who have not reconciled themselves to the majority Sunni control from the `mainland'.

In the first decades after 1947, the N.A. agitation was directed towards joining the Pakistani mainstream by the amalgamation of the region on the basis of parity with ***. But once they realised that even this would not be conceded, in 1988 people revolted in Gilgit demanding an independent Karakoram state.

President Gen. Pervez Musharraf, then a Brigadier with the elite commando Special Services Group charged with quelling the disturbances, effectively used Sunni tribal `irregulars' to execute a brutal pogrom against the locals. Sunni tribals were trucked in from mainland Pakistan and the Afghan border regions, and after eight days of ceaseless violence the Army `stepped in' to restore peace. Thereafter large numbers of Sunnis were brought in from Punjab and the NWFP to settle down in Gilgit, radically altering the demographic profile of the area. The 85-90 per cent Shia majority of 1947 has been whittled down to around 55 per cent today. "We were ruled by the whites during the British days. We are now ruled by the browns from the plains. The rapid settling in of Punjabis and Pakhtoons from outside, particularly the trading classes, has created a sense of acute insecurity among the local Shias," local Shia leader Muhammad Yahya Shah declared. According to reports in the Pakistani press, the 1:4 ratio of non-local people to local people in the region until January 2001 has dipped to an alarming 3:4.

Anti-Sunni riots broke out in 1993 in Gilgit, leading to the death of 20 Shias. A year later the federal government allowed mainline political parties of Pakistan to funtion in the region but not those of neighbouring ***.

The first party-based elections in October 1994 led to the installation of the 26-member Northern Areas Executive Council, but it had only advisory powers, no legislative authority. The real power remained with the Ministry of Kashmir and Northern Areas Affairs, which is headed by a middle-level bureaucrat in Islamabad. `Mainland' officials continued to man the N.A.'s civil, police and security services. There was also no right of appeal against the judgments of the judicial commissioner.

Following the recommendations of the Pakistan Supreme Court to extend to the N.A. legislative, financial and administrative powers alongside an independent judiciary with writ jurisdiction, the first N.A. Legislative Council was elected in 2000. It was granted powers to legislate on local matters and impose local taxes, but the overall N.A. structure was left unchanged so that Pakistan's Federal Minister for Kashmir Affairs continued as the chief executive. And when the rest of Pakistan voted for a new civilian government in the October 2002 elections, the N.A. remained outside the political process.

Unrest erupted in Gilgit in June 2001 and again two years later following protests from Sunni organisations over the Islamabad-directed administration's decision to introduce a school syllabus that ignored Shia beliefs. The Shias claimed that they were being forced to study the same books as those prescribed for Sunni students by the Sunni Ulema, and not those approved by the Shia clergy. Shia leaders said the textbooks promoted Sunni thought and values and were an attempt to promote sectarian hatred between the two sects. Hundreds of schoolchildren boycotted classes and staged protest rallies in Gilgit but to little effect.

The 11-week-long Kargil War in 1999 further fuelled discontent in the N.A. The Pakistan Army's Northern Light Infantry (NLI), over 70 per cent of which is comprised of local people, was used for the Kargil incursions. The NLI suffered serious casualties as the Shia soldiers were pushed into suicidal missions by Sunni officers from the `mainland'. Once Washington, fearing the conflict between the nuclear rivals could escalate, brokered peace between the neighbours and forced Pakistan to withdraw its forces, the NLI was disowned by Islamabad. Pakistan refused to accept the bodies of NLI soldiers and the Army initially refused any compensation to the families of those killed in combat. Soon afterwards, NLI units were posted out of the region while, to humiliate the local people further, Sunni Punjabi and Pakhtoon troops were inducted into hitherto "pure N.A." Shia units.

"Though outwardly calm, the Northern Areas of Pakistan are simmering with a crisis that has all the ingredients of boiling over the rim," the widely circulated newspaper Dawn said recently. This discontent and anger, if not appeased, can erupt into a national crisis with far-reaching consequences, it added.

*An enclave on the boil*

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## equiliz3r

According to Indepandance act of India, Ruler of princely state had the power where to go alone with certain conditions such as only muslim majority areas that were in physical contact with Pakistan can join pakistan if ruler f that area wants.

But Pakistan has not honored that act.

So Area of Kashmir that pakistan is occupying is Illegal


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## toxic_pus

Kakgeta said:


> Geographical *Continuity* ? That sounds almost ironical coming from you since Kasmir is linked to India only by one highway !!!!!!!
> The Leh-Manali Highway.................


Geographical *contiguity*. Neither 'continuity' nor 'connectivity'.

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## Windjammer

toxic_pus said:


> Geographical *contiguity*. Neither 'continuity' nor 'connectivity'.



You are missing "Force of Freedom" that also comes into equation.


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## Icarus

equiliz3r said:


> According to Indepandance act of India, Ruler of princely state had the power where to go alone with certain conditions such as only muslim majority areas that were in physical contact with Pakistan can join pakistan if ruler f that area wants.
> 
> But Pakistan has not honored that act.
> 
> So Area of Kashmir that pakistan is occupying is Illegal



Well then by that scale, Indian's claim on the territory of Junagadh and Hyderabad is also illegal.


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## Icarus

Halaku Khan said:


> *An enclave on the boil*
> 
> RAHUL BEDI
> in New Delhi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Discontentment is mounting in the Northern Areas, once a part of Kashmir, where Pakistan has tried to suppress regional aspirations by enforcing draconian laws and by changing the demographic pattern by settling Sunni Muslims from Punjab and the northeast.
> 
> WHILE the highly publicised 56-year-old dispute over Jammu and Kashmir rages between nuclear rivals India and Pakistan, the simmering discontent in Pakistan's remote Northern Areas (N.A.), which once formed part of the troubled principality, has largely gone unnoticed.
> 
> 
> 
> This strategic, picturesque and environmentally diverse region adjoining China and the Central Asian Republics (CARs), which is dominated by Shias and Ismaili Muslims who are followers of the Agha Khan, has remained under tight Pakistani military control for over five decades. It is out of bounds to outsiders including journalists, except for occasional "guided tours" closely monitored by the Army and the intelligence agencies. Because of this, little about the rumblings in the region becomes known.
> 
> The N.A.'s 2.8 million residents, spread across Gilgit, Diamir, Baltistan, Ghizer and Ghanche districts, which cover 44,800 square kilometres, are the only people in Pakistan whose status remains unspecified. They continue to be deprived of the fundamental, legal, political and civil rights that are guaranteed to the rest of the country by Pakistan's Constitution. The entire region is administered by the repressive Frontier Crime Regulations (FCR), which were framed during the Colonial era and which make it mandatory for all residents to report regularly to local intelligence personnel and stipulate that all movement from one village to another has to be reported. Consequently, their resentment has been steadily growing.
> 
> Persistent denial of educational and economic opportunities for the region and the absence of any infrastructural facilities such as hospitals and colleges have further strengthened Islamabad's stranglehold over the N.A. The region has a near negligible presence of daily newspapers and radio or television stations. The few publications that exist are subject to state control and are frequently shut down for airing "subversive" demands such as human rights, accountability and political freedom.
> 
> The breathtakingly beautiful N.A. is home to eight mountain peaks between 24,000 and 28,000 feet (7,200 to 8,400 metres) high, including the K2, the world's second highest peak. But little of this is exploited to benefit the local people. "We want access to our own resources, which is our right," Inayatullah of the Engineers Forum of Gilgit-Baltistan said at one of the first ever public seminars by N.A. leaders permitted by the Pakistani establishment, in the garrison town of Rawalpindi last year.
> 
> Accusing Islamabad of perpetuating "Agency Raj" or control over the region by the military and the intelligence services, members of the 12-party Gilgit Baltistan National Alliance (GBNA) objected to the N.A. being colonised by outsiders, mostly Sunni Muslims from Punjab and the North West Frontier Province (NWFP), and demanded a greater say in deciding its future.
> 
> Security analysts say Islamabad is concerned that the mounting restlessness could impinge negatively on vital national security concerns. The Karakoram highway, which snakes through the N.A., links Pakistan to its military and nuclear ally China via the Khunjerab Pass, one of the worlds highest passes. The Indus and Jhelum rivers, Pakistan's main water sources, meander through the area. Any attempt at disrupting the flow of the rivers in the N.A. could trigger drought in several parts of the country, parts of which are already parched and close to becoming deserts because of Islamabad's short-sighted water management and inter-province disputes.
> 
> THE complex history of the N. A. is intricately linked to the Kashmir dispute. After Independence in 1947, Kashmir's Hindu ruler Maharaja Hari Singh feebly tried to regain control over the turbulent area, then known as the Gilgit Agency and controlled by the Gilgit Scouts, one of the several militias raised by the colonial administration to exercise at least limited suzerainty over far-flung and turbulent regions of the vast empire.
> 
> But pro-Islamic zeal and incitement by the British commander of the Gilgit Scouts led to the region breaking away from Kashmir to form the independent People's Republic of Baltistan and Gilgit. This, however, lasted a mere 17 days, as the leaders of the rebellion in a fit of religious zeal handed over the territory on November 1, 1947, to the newly formed Pakistan. Over the years, following decades of repression by Islamabad, November 1 is observed as a day of repentance in the N.A. when slogans in support of independence from federal control are raised openly.
> 
> Recognising its strategic importance and unsure of how the Kashmir dispute would unravel, Pakistan almost immediately renamed this region the Northern Areas and separated it from the rest of Kashmir, which it occupied and called it "Azad" or free Kashmir. Azad Kashmir - which India terms Azad Kashmir (***) - included a 6,400 sq km sliver of land around the capital Muzaffarabad and the other main town Mirpur, while the N. A. was at least seven times larger. India controls two-thirds of Kashmir.
> 
> In 1949, Pakistan separated the administration of the N.A. from *** and introduced the draconian FCR. And, though *** was provided a figurehead administration, which included a Sadr (President) and a Vazir-e-Azam (Prime Minister) and a modicum of political activity, albeit tightly controlled by the federal government, the N.A. is still administered by a toothless council, headed by a Deputy Commissioner appointed by Islamabad.
> 
> Islamabad is determined to `disengage' the N.A. from ***. Security analysts say that the Pakistani military will go to any length to crush any independence movement in the N.A. as it cannot afford the area breaking away or becoming part of the larger Kashmir question.
> 
> "While Pakistan-backed militancy has focussed the international spotlight on the Kashmir valley, India has failed to expose clearly Pakistan's weaknesses in the N.A.," a security official said. If India's tenuous claims over Kashmir form the basis of Pakistan's argument to gain control of the Muslim-majority State, then the hatred of the people of the N.A. towards Islamabad must also be factored into the dispute, he added.
> 
> In 1963, in violation of all agreements, approximately a third of the N.A., the Shaksgam valley, was gifted to China under the Sino-Pakistan Boundary Agreement, which stipulated that the deal was subject to a final settlement of the Kashmir issue between India and Pakistan. Thereafter China and Pakistan built the Karakoram military highway on the ceded territory, linking Islamabad with Kashgar in Xinjiang. And though the chances of renegotiating this arbitrary land transfer are remote, Pakistan remained wary of the local Shias, who have not reconciled themselves to the majority Sunni control from the `mainland'.
> 
> In the first decades after 1947, the N.A. agitation was directed towards joining the Pakistani mainstream by the amalgamation of the region on the basis of parity with ***. But once they realised that even this would not be conceded, in 1988 people revolted in Gilgit demanding an independent Karakoram state.
> 
> President Gen. Pervez Musharraf, then a Brigadier with the elite commando Special Services Group charged with quelling the disturbances, effectively used Sunni tribal `irregulars' to execute a brutal pogrom against the locals. Sunni tribals were trucked in from mainland Pakistan and the Afghan border regions, and after eight days of ceaseless violence the Army `stepped in' to restore peace. Thereafter large numbers of Sunnis were brought in from Punjab and the NWFP to settle down in Gilgit, radically altering the demographic profile of the area. The 85-90 per cent Shia majority of 1947 has been whittled down to around 55 per cent today. "We were ruled by the whites during the British days. We are now ruled by the browns from the plains. The rapid settling in of Punjabis and Pakhtoons from outside, particularly the trading classes, has created a sense of acute insecurity among the local Shias," local Shia leader Muhammad Yahya Shah declared. According to reports in the Pakistani press, the 1:4 ratio of non-local people to local people in the region until January 2001 has dipped to an alarming 3:4.
> 
> Anti-Sunni riots broke out in 1993 in Gilgit, leading to the death of 20 Shias. A year later the federal government allowed mainline political parties of Pakistan to funtion in the region but not those of neighbouring ***.
> 
> The first party-based elections in October 1994 led to the installation of the 26-member Northern Areas Executive Council, but it had only advisory powers, no legislative authority. The real power remained with the Ministry of Kashmir and Northern Areas Affairs, which is headed by a middle-level bureaucrat in Islamabad. `Mainland' officials continued to man the N.A.'s civil, police and security services. There was also no right of appeal against the judgments of the judicial commissioner.
> 
> Following the recommendations of the Pakistan Supreme Court to extend to the N.A. legislative, financial and administrative powers alongside an independent judiciary with writ jurisdiction, the first N.A. Legislative Council was elected in 2000. It was granted powers to legislate on local matters and impose local taxes, but the overall N.A. structure was left unchanged so that Pakistan's Federal Minister for Kashmir Affairs continued as the chief executive. And when the rest of Pakistan voted for a new civilian government in the October 2002 elections, the N.A. remained outside the political process.
> 
> Unrest erupted in Gilgit in June 2001 and again two years later following protests from Sunni organisations over the Islamabad-directed administration's decision to introduce a school syllabus that ignored Shia beliefs. The Shias claimed that they were being forced to study the same books as those prescribed for Sunni students by the Sunni Ulema, and not those approved by the Shia clergy. Shia leaders said the textbooks promoted Sunni thought and values and were an attempt to promote sectarian hatred between the two sects. Hundreds of schoolchildren boycotted classes and staged protest rallies in Gilgit but to little effect.
> 
> The 11-week-long Kargil War in 1999 further fuelled discontent in the N.A. The Pakistan Army's Northern Light Infantry (NLI), over 70 per cent of which is comprised of local people, was used for the Kargil incursions. The NLI suffered serious casualties as the Shia soldiers were pushed into suicidal missions by Sunni officers from the `mainland'. Once Washington, fearing the conflict between the nuclear rivals could escalate, brokered peace between the neighbours and forced Pakistan to withdraw its forces, the NLI was disowned by Islamabad. Pakistan refused to accept the bodies of NLI soldiers and the Army initially refused any compensation to the families of those killed in combat. Soon afterwards, NLI units were posted out of the region while, to humiliate the local people further, Sunni Punjabi and Pakhtoon troops were inducted into hitherto "pure N.A." Shia units.
> 
> "Though outwardly calm, the Northern Areas of Pakistan are simmering with a crisis that has all the ingredients of boiling over the rim," the widely circulated newspaper Dawn said recently. This discontent and anger, if not appeased, can erupt into a national crisis with far-reaching consequences, it added.
> 
> *An enclave on the boil*



Get a neutral link......................possibly one that does not highlight 6 year old issues.............


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## Abi

How is it "occupation"? If it's occupation that all of Pakistan is occupation. Pakistan is not multi-ethnic country.


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## notsuperstitious

Kakgeta said:


> Well then by that scale, Indian's claim on the territory of Junagadh and Hyderabad is also illegal.



No! Because junagarh and hyderabad do not share a border with pakistan, hence they can not join pakistan. Pls read Toxic's response again. he does use heavy words and then people fail to understand 

Also understand pakistani troops entered kashmir first, indian later, hence you are occupiers and we are liberators in our books 

Also AZAD kashmir my foot, you have already annexed gilgit baltistan, you can fool your gullible population, not us.

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## dabong1

toxic_pus said:


> Which part of 'geographical contiguity' do you not understand?



East pakistan.....andaman islands which are closer to burma then india and for the sake of 'geographical contiguity' should belong to burma.



toxic_pus said:


> But I guess then you also agree that whole of Kashmir belongs to India and Pakistan is illegally occupying whatever it is occupying



Let the people decide like they did in junagarh.




toxic_pus said:


> The Princely States were never a part of the British India



May this will help....Princely state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## notsuperstitious

dabong1 said:


> East pakistan.....andaman islands which are closer to burma then india and for the sake of 'geographical contiguity' should belong to burma.
> 
> 
> 
> Let the people decide like they did in junagarh.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> May this will help....Princely state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




1) Andamans part of british India
2) Jnagarh did not have a boundary with pakistan, kashmir did with india
3) Read about the mountbatten plan, respect what you agreed to BEFORE expecting others to do so.

Less emotional stuff and more technical pls.

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## Icarus

fateh71 said:


> No! *Because junagarh and hyderabad do not share a border with pakistan,* hence they can not join pakistan. Pls read *Toxic's response again. he does use heavy words* and then people fail to understand
> 
> *Also understand pakistani troops entered kashmir first*, indian later, hence you are occupiers and we are liberators *in our books*
> 
> *Also AZAD kashmir my foot, you have already annexed gilgit baltistan, you can fool your gullible population, not us.*



1)Neither did East Pakistan.
2)Toxic didn't even write that post, consult an optician.
3)Pakistani troops didn't enter first, Kashmiri people revolted against the Maharaja, Pathan tribes invaded to support them,Maharaja acceded to India and then Pakistani troops invaded and captured what today is Azad Kashmir,consult a history book.
4)We don't give a damn what's written about us in "Your Books".
5)Was convincing enough for the Kashmiris to struggle against your occupation.

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## ROSH

@ Kakgeta............time for you to read " Neutral Opinions / Books". It will greatly help to remove the Propoganda you have gone throgh since your birth. Comeon...google...its the easiest way out. You should not shy away from Truth.
1) East Pakistan was an aberration. Part of British India. History corrected the anamoly. This correction is known as Bangladesh to the whole world.
3) Pathan Tribe and Angels and Aliens....as Pakistanis were too busy with partition and life issues....yes ...yes.....cook somemore....you have good script.
4) Our books are secular and correct..written mostly by esteem Muslim Historians / Socialist writers....try it out witj independent sources...enlighten yourself..it's not too late.
5) Alice in wonderland.....

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## ramu

Windjammer said:


> Get your facts right first, the Indian part is the occupied Kashmir, the rest is refered to as AZAD KASHMIR.
> Ever wondered why there are always demos, strikes, abduction and killing and rapes etc etc taking place on daily basis in the Indian held Kashmir, where as Azad Kashmir is the most peaceful part on this side of the border. ? But i guess it takes high moral values to address this question.



No offence but Pakistan is in the middle of a war with its cities targeted on a daily basis. Your prime minister admitted that incidents such as Mumbai 26/11 was happening on a regular basis in several cities. Most of Pakistan is affected by incidents of violence and a large number of protests don't get reported in the limited amount of air time available. 

The region of Kashmir is not peaceful when compared to other states and I admit this fair and square. However press freedom is unquestionable in India and with over 200 channels you can get an overcook a story beyond the scope of reality. I am not saying that is the case but it is quite possible.

Contrast that with the deteriorating situation of freedom to journalists in Gilgit-Baltistan. Links ? here you go and again I am giving neutral site : UNPO - Gilgit Baltistan: Deteriorating Freedom of Press
Hope I have made my point and you will agree if you think rationally. It is important to demilitarise kashmir and occupied kashmir which ever way you look at it. An army is good on the border but not in the mainland and in the cities. India will and should move towards making Kashmir a heaven on earth. We would like Pakistan to extent its full support.

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## xebex

Aamir Zia said:


> ok
> 
> We Agree for Referendum ...
> 
> Let the People Decide ..



I see u value the decision of people in regards to Kashmir eh? I didnt see the same passion when half of the Pakistan's history went under Millitary dictatorship. I didnt see nobody letting the people decide. I still can show u people who support Musharaff over elected politican. Why these double standard, it only shows the blindness towards reality. Also, how sure are u that this Kashmir wont go under a future millitary coup? So just chill off!


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## toxic_pus

dabong1 said:


> East pakistan.....andaman islands which are closer to burma then india and for the sake of 'geographical contiguity' should belong to burma.


Burma ceased to be part of British India sometime in late '30s. It is not a coincidence that The Indian Independence Act, 1947 bears the name of India and not Burma.


> Let the people decide like they did in junagarh.


Shifting the post already. Just a few posts ago you were hinting that Junagadh should have belonged to Pakistan simply on the basis of Instrument of Accession. Why then this sudden change of heart? 

To answer your question, our self-imposed obligation was not unconditional. It was based on several conditions, two of which were that Pakistan shouldn't stoke trouble in Kashmir and maintain an atmosphere that is conducive to hold plebiscite and that Pakistan should withdraw from P0K. Those conditions remain unfulfilled and hence no plebiscite. These are all recorded in details.

You know this is not exactly rocket science.



> May this will help....Princely state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


No that won't help. The India Act, 1935 would. The Indian Independence Act, 1947 would help too. But before that get yourself acquainted with words like 'suzerainty', 'paramountcy' or what is 'direct rule' and what is 'indirect rule'.

Once you have gone through these Acts, wake me up.

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## toxic_pus

Kakgeta said:


> 1)Neither did East Pakistan.


East Pakistan was Pakistan.


> 2)Toxic didn't even write that post, consult an optician.


HUH ?


> 3)Pakistani troops didn't enter first, Kashmiri people revolted against the Maharaja, Pathan tribes invaded to support them,Maharaja acceded to India and then Pakistani troops invaded and captured what today is Azad Kashmir,consult a history book.


Kashmiri people didn't revolt against Maharaja. The revolt - if it can be called that - was a local rebellion restricted to the Poonch district. I suggest you grab hold of '_The Raiders In Kashmir_' by Akbar Khan to understand how the whole so-called tribal invasion happened initially with the connivance and tacit support of GoP and PA and later with direct support.


> 4)We don't give a damn what's written about us in "Your Books".


The feeling is mutual


> 5)Was convincing enough for the Kashmiris to struggle against your occupation.


Read EU Report. You might just learn something different.

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## equiliz3r

Kakgeta said:


> Well then by that scale, Indian's claim on the territory of Junagadh and Hyderabad is also illegal.




you went offtopic.........I hope mods will look to it.

We got hydrabad by force...............and we have accord by Nawab who after deafeat agreed to be part of India and was apponted governor.

Its completly legal

About Junagah............Act said that area should be muslim majority and in physical contact with pakistan.
Junagah was hindu dominated and was not connected to pakistan by land...................But again we found someone to sign accord as Ruler had flewed.

Legal.

I have read many posts that says Pakistan doesnot recognises Hari singh as ruler of Kashmir as he was forced by Bristish.

Then why Pakistan didnt go for Family of Maharaja Duleep Singh.........The last ruler of Punjab empire????

To my knowledge , Daughter of Maharaja named Princess bamba Sutherland was able to reach Punjab and died in lahore in 1957.

Sadly none of its family member is alive today.

Can families of his generals work????


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

I dunno, they probably will stage more terror sieges in India and bombings. Doe that answers you questions?


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## PlanetWarrior

Solomon2 said:


> Who is to say _when_ and _why_ an international agreement is "outdated"?



An agreement which calls for the immediate removal of Pakistani troops followed by Indian troops in 1952. Thereafter a referendum is to be held. Pakistan refuses to comply with troop removal. Some 50 years passes on and the demographics of the territory changes drastically with an influx of "foreigners" into Kashmir. Would you say that the agreement is still enforceable ?


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## Solomon2

In contract law, the contract may still be in effect even if it is currently unenforceable due to external circumstances. That's what I see here.


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## Adwitiya

Azad Kashmir said:


> I dunno, they probably will stage more terror sieges in India and bombings. Doe that answers you questions?



But things can backfire in such a case....for pakistan on the international platform as evident from the recent events...


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## karan.1970

Solomon2 said:


> In contract law, the contract may still be in effect even if it is currently unenforceable due to external circumstances. That's what I see here.




So the scenario goes like this

1. India and Pakistan need to agree to troop withdrawl modalities. 
2. Post which the plebiscite needs to happen. 

Now If point 1 which is a condition for 2 to happen does not get completed, discussing point 2 is a meaningless.. Now in theory the contract may stay in effect but is defunct for all pratical purposes..


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## Solomon2

Rather than move in series, these items could move in parallel. Even if the agreement doesn't call for that, it is a practical and trust-building way to implement it, don't you think?


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## karan.1970

but without a closure on troop withdrawl, there couldnt have been a clean plebiscite. and that was 60 years back. Now its more of an impossibility than what it was at that time with a significant change in the demographics of the populace. The basic assumptions and premise on which India agreed for the plebiscite do not hold good anymore. Dont think Plebiscite is an option anymore from an India perspective..


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## toxic_pus

Solomon2 said:


> In contract law, the contract may still be in effect even if it is currently unenforceable due to external circumstances. That's what I see here.


That is a correct observation.

However, from our point of view, it became void - if I am allowed to use that term in the context of UN resolutions - in 1965 when Pakistan broke the cease fire agreement and breached the LoC in direct violation of the agreement.

I would repeat what I had said earlier. 

_When a party to an agreement  which the Cease Fire Agreement was  willfully violates the terms and conditions of the said agreement, it no longer remains binding on the other party. The agreement becomes invalid. The Cease Fire agreement became invalid that way. Since all other subsequent resolutions were directly dependent on or connected to this Cease Fire agreement, those became defunct_.

You should also note that India had accepted plebiscite strictly on certain conditions. One of which was that Pakistan should respect LoC maintaining an atmosphere of peace. Another one was of course, withdrawal of Pakistani citizens, irregular forces a.k.a Azad Kashmir Force and Pak military.



Solomon2 said:


> Rather than move in series, these items could move in parallel. Even if the agreement doesn't call for that, it is a practical and trust-building way to implement it, don't you think?


Assuming that all other problems of holding a plebiscite today are somehow solved, organising plebiscite in the middle of military withdrawal can be administrative nightmare.

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## Solomon2

So we have the outline of a way forward: India revising its pov and the "administrative nightmare" of organizing a plebiscite without much military around. Not too different from what the U.N. was called to do in Iraq several times in the past decade. Everything sounds doable, if difficult.

As for India standing on its current pov and the letter of its conditions accepting the plebiscite: whether justifiable or not, do you really think it is wise? If India is presented with the opportunity for a lasting peace with Pakistan, why not take it?


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## prithwidw

Solomon2 said:


> So we have the outline of a way forward: India revising its pov and the "administrative nightmare" of organizing a plebiscite without much military around. Not too different from what the U.N. was called to do in Iraq several times in the past decade. Everything sounds doable, if difficult.
> 
> As for India standing on its current pov and the letter of its conditions accepting the plebiscite: whether justifiable or not, do you really think it is wise? If India is presented with the opportunity for a lasting peace with Pakistan, why not take it?



We don't need it. Coz' the whole of Kashmir is Indian Land. You should have known that.


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## Solomon2

Pakistan is India and India is Pakistan. For historically the region referred to as "India" has been too large and too diverse to be lumped together as a single political unit, save by military force. 

Furthermore, I don't see why the current GoI has an exclusive claim to "Indian Land", any more than the government of Macedonia has dibs on the Greek province with the same name.


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## prithwidw

Solomon2 said:


> Pakistan is India and India is Pakistan. For historically the region referred to as "India" has been too large and too diverse to be lumped together as a single political unit, save by military force.
> 
> Furthermore, I don't see why the current GoI has an exclusive claim to "Indian Land", any more than the government of Macedonia has dibs on the Greek province with the same name.



I don't see Barack Obama or any other US official speaking on this. Neither had. 
Your thoughts in a language common for all would be appreciated.


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## Solomon2

I think B.O. is too busy with the Taliban and Al-Qaeda to serve as an intermediary on Kashmir. And the U.S. doesn't share the British legal tradition to the same extent as India and Pakistan do. I'll bet there are better intermediaries available, under-employed diplomats and ministers who would jump at the opportunity. Seek and ye shall find...


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## prithwidw

Solomon2 said:


> I think B.O. is too busy with the Taliban and Al-Qaeda to serve as an intermediary on Kashmir.


Now that would be another foreign policy mistake.



Solomon2 said:


> And the U.S. doesn't share the British legal tradition to the same extent as India and Pakistan do.


If you mean laws, then the feeling is mutual.



Solomon2 said:


> I'll bet there are better intermediaries available, under-employed diplomats and ministers who would jump at the opportunity. Seek and ye shall find...


I understand that. Those have been a hindrance at India's progress. But hey! Was America built in a day?


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## EjazR

@Solomon2

Historically,

not only did the Maharaja of Kashmir accede to India-which only provides the legal basis, but the most popular political party at that time the National Conference also endorsed the accession. 
Sheikh Abdulla was by far the tallest leader and had led a long struggle against the Maharaja for the emancipation of the mostly muslim landless peasants. Infact he was in prison at the time of accession and one of the conditions of accepting this was to release him. If the plebescite had been held at that time and the US and UK had genuinely pressed GoP to create conditions conducive for the plebescite (i.e. withdraw army, and tribals e.t.c) it would most likely have had been in favor for India seeing that Sheikh Abdulla had endorsed this.

In the 1950 elections of J&K on the Indian side, his National Conference won major majority and again passed a resolution endorsing the accession. 

Unfortunately, the US and UK looked at most of these disputes as a capitalism vs communism and sided with Pakistan on most Kashmir issues just like it sided with Israel on most Palestinian issues if not all.

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## Solomon2

prithwidw said:


> Now that would be another foreign policy mistake.


Would it? Pakistan is currently our ally (albeit a most difficult one) in our struggle against Al Qaeda and the Taliban. At this stage, compelling America's involvement in the Kashmir conflict could be as distasteful as Argentina's experience when the U.S. served as intermediary in the 1982 Falkands/Malvinas conflict: obligations to the ally-of-the-moment blight the efficacy of the mediator. Hoping for such a bias I can see that Pakistan might insist on U.S. involvement, but I don't see why India should.



> But hey! Was America built in a day?


Ah, but you see, the Americans looked to build a nation. What are India and Pakistan out to build? That's the question!


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## Solomon2

EjazR, what you are describing is a suitable opening position for India in its discussions with Pakistan. From there, you'll have to be flexible if you want to make progress. 

After all, how many cease-fires between Israel and Egypt and Jordan were violated? A lot! Yet both countries have peace treaties with Israel today. Do you think that would have happened if these countries had stood on their "rights" rather than make bold initiatives?


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## prithwidw

Solomon2 said:


> Would it? Pakistan is currently our ally (albeit a most difficult one) in our struggle against Al Qaeda and the Taliban. At this stage, compelling America's involvement in the Kashmir conflict could be as distasteful as Argentina's experience when the U.S. served as intermediary in the 1982 Falkands/Malvinas conflict: obligations to the ally-of-the-moment blight the efficacy of the mediator.


Dude, do you seriously think we need US' help.
Hell No! We have been dealing it for ages and would deal it in the future too. Btw, India is not 1982s' Argentina. Remember 1971 Indo-Pak war, USS Enterprise and etc...ahem!



Solomon2 said:


> Hoping for such a bias I can see that Pakistan might insist on U.S. involvement, but I don't see why India should.


We don't. We look towards US as a business partner, and that's how US looks at us. Too much at stake here.

And I see no reason, why if Pakistani request of an involvement would spark an Indo-US cold war. Russia is still our ally. And it would be naive to reject that! And we are not dependent on charity.



Solomon2 said:


> Ah, but you see, the Americans looked to build a nation. What are India and Pakistan out to build? That's the question!


Can't you see Solomon?
We don't beg.
We get the best offers on defense equipment.
Israel is our 2nd biggest defense partner.
And more!

Time for you to open your eyes!

I love my country as much as you love yours...


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## Solomon2

prithwidw said:


> Dude, do you seriously think we need US' help.


No, but you did ask.

We don't. We look towards US as a business partner, and that's how US looks at us. Too much at stake here.



> I see no reason, why if Pakistani request of an involvement would spark an Indo-US cold war. Russia is still our ally.


I see no "Indo-US cold war" happening, now or in the future. As for Russia, I think it sees India as a business partner rather than an ally, just like India sees the U.S. Something India might want to think about.



> Can't you see Solomon? We don't beg...Time for you to open your eyes!


I can see that India all-too-often wants to play the game of standing on its strength, rather than being a good neighbor. Until India modifies that somewhat, prospects for peace and prosperity with Pakistan - no matter how welcoming a GoP may be - can't proceed very far, I guess.


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## prithwidw

Solomon2 said:


> No, but you did ask.


Yes we did. Because we feel for our innocent citizens who are killed by Pakistan sponsored terrorism.

Didn't you ask Pakistan's help after 9/11?
And what have you got till now?



Solomon2 said:


> I can see that India all-too-often wants to play the game of standing on its strength, rather than being a good neighbor.


Solomon, I admit India's foreign Policies are full of mistakes, but US of A's are not rosy either.

We have always been a good neighbour, can you explain what you mean?



Solomon2 said:


> Until India modifies that somewhat, prospects for peace and prosperity with Pakistan - no matter how welcoming a GoP may be - can't proceed very far, I guess.


Bah! When US forces Pakistan to act against terrorists, it is wise. When India requests Pakistan to act, it is bossy.

You are being one-sided here. Stop this crap.


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## Solomon2

prithwidw said:


> Yes we did. Because we feel for our innocent citizens who are killed by Pakistan sponsored terrorism. Didn't you ask Pakistan's help after 9/11? And what have you got till now?...Bah! When US forces Pakistan to act against terrorists, it is wise. When India requests Pakistan to act, it is bossy.


 O.K., it was time, a change of government, and constant persuasion that finally resulted in a change in attitude by the GoP for anti-terror events to move forward. 

India isn't being particularly persuasive just now, right? That's a necessary element.



> We have always been a good neighbour, can you explain what you mean?


Indira threatened to eat up Pakistan entirely back in 1971. Not the act of a good neighbor, was it? Nor was India's development of nuclear weapons, for that matter.



> You are being one-sided here. Stop this crap.


That's because the Pakistanis have made themselves scarce...


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## Jackdaws

Solomon, 

An American preaching about good neighborly relations and non development of nuclear weapons is the equivalent of a whore singing paeans to the virtues of virginity. Please spare us the sermon and the patronization. 

As Churchill said, "You can count on the Americans doing the right thing....only after they have exhausted all the other alternatives." You can call the Pakistanis and Saudis your allies for now - but tell me the same thing after another 9/11 like attack happens on the US. If and when it happens, the Pakistanis are toast.


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## Solomon2

Jackdaws said:


> An American preaching about good neighborly relations and non development of nuclear weapons is the equivalent of a whore singing paeans to the virtues of virginity.


I don't recall the last time terror arrived with a Canadian or Mexican return address. It has been nearly a century since we had a conflict with Mexico, the Canadian border is open and unpatrolled, we've successfully and peacefully shared the Great Lakes to mutual profit for two hundred years, and through NATO the Canadians and we are allies.

As for armed intervention elsewhere in the New World in the past century, you should ask the citizens - and former citizens - of Cuba, Haiti, Grenada, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Mexico, Columbia, Panama, etc. whether it was desirable or not; the range of answers may surprise you.

In short, maybe India _can_ learn something from America.


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## Treatment

JUD as said is a charity and it should actively facilitate talks between india and pakistan


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## Hutchroy

AJK may not allow WAPDA to fill Mangla Dam

*AJK may not allow WAPDA to fill Mangla Dam *

_Provinces oppose allocating water to dam affectees; AJK PM says we are not asking for water from Arabian Sea"_

MIRPUR (AJK): *The Government of Azad Jammu and Kashmir has decided not to allow Water and Power Development Authority to fill Mangla Dam up to its new capacity until the issues related to the relocation of affected persons and allocation of water are not resolved

Government of Pakistans reluctance to allocate 614 cusecs of water from Mangla Dam to the AJK may put off raising the water level in the dam next summer causing annual loss of Rs18 billion to WAPDA..*

The delay in rehabilitation of persons affected by the Mangla Dam raising project is already increasing mistrust between the affectees and Government of Pakistan.

*The Government of Pakistan is dilly-dallying on the allocation of drinking and irrigation water for areas developed for the people evicted from their ancestral homes to accommodate the increase in Mangla Dam capacity not for the AJK but for enhancing water and power supply to Pakistan.*

As such, the provincial governments of Sindh, Balochistan and NWFP opposed the demand for water for the dam affectees.

The Government of AJK in the face of mounting pressure from dam affectees of Mirpur have decided not to allow WAPDA to fill the dam till the resolution of all pending issues including water allocation which may cause losses of billions of rupees to WAPDA. The AJK government is of the view that;

1. They signed an agreement with the Government of Pakistan, but after completion of the dam raising, it is complicating the issue by dragging provinces into this matter, *which is creating mistrust and unrest among people of Mirpur who have rendered tremendous sacrifices twice during the last 38 years.*

*2. IRSA has no jurisdiction over AJK and therefore cannot decide their water rights.*

3. The opposition of Sindh and Balochistan is a great surprise to the AJK. Prime Minister of AJK has said, water is not coming from the Arabian Sea and flowing towards AJK whereby we needed permission from Sindh and Balochistan to use this water, rather it is the other way round and the AJK being upper riparian has prior rights under all international water conventions and laws to make judicious use of this water within their own territory.

4. The growing mistrust in the AJK may hamper the efforts of Pakistan to bring cheaper energy to its national grid under the prevailing energy crisis through hydroelectric projects underway in the AJK including 969 MW Neelum-Jhelum followed by 1,100 MW Kohala, 700 MW Mahel, 800 MW Karot, 600 MW Azad Pattan, 180 MW Gulpur and 135 MW Kotli along with so many other medium-sized hydroelectric projects under different phases in the AJK. *The growing mistrust for a meagre quantity of 613 cusecs of water *needs to be addressed immediately so that further mega projects could be built to bring Pakistan out of the present energy crisis and ensure further water storage to take the country out of extreme shortage.

*Relocating thousands of people who were evicted from their ancestral homes after their areas were earmarked to come under new boundaries of the Mangla Dam reservoir has become a serious issue.*

President of Pakistan Asif Ali Zardari cancelled his visit to Mirpur in January to inaugurate recently completed Mangla Dam Raising Project by WAPDA to avoid public pressure on rehabilitation issues.

*The Mangla Dam was initially constructed in 1967. More than 300,000 people from Mirpur were forced to give up their land, properties and graveyards of their ancestors to keep Pakistan green and illuminated. The Kashmiris claim it a glaring example of sacrifice for a greater national cause.

The affectees were relocated in New Mirpur town and they were promised water for drinking and irrigation, although this right was already accepted in 1904 under the Darbar Agreement between Darbar of Maharajas Government of Jammu & Kashmir and the Government of Punjab.

For more than 100 years, the people of Mirpur were denied this right in complete disregard to all agreements, promises and sacrifices.

In 2002, the Pakistani government decided to raise Mangla Dam to increase water storage capacity and generate additional electricity. The project required displacement of another 80,000 people from Mirpur.

An agreement to this effect was signed between Pakistan and the AJK in 2003, under which GOP yet again promised drinking and irrigation water for twice affectees of Mangla Dam and to irrigate their small land located in the downstream of Mangla Dam in Mirpur and Bhimber.*

A technical committee headed by NESPAK Consultant and comprising of Ministry of KA&NA, Water and Power and representatives from Govt. of AJ&K was set up to assess AJK water which came up with unanimous recommendations for 613.6 Cusecs from Mangla dam and Upper Jehlum Canal (UJC).

The report of the Committee was forwarded to IRSA who conveyed their decision that AJ&K not being a part of IRSA cannot be accommodated for any water allocation under Water Apportioned Accord 1991.

Thereafter, the case was submitted to the Prime Minister for issuance of executive Order but the PM referred the matter to Inter Provincial Coordination Ministry. Subsequently in the IPC meeting in February 2009 governments of Sindh, *Balochistan and NWFP opposed allocation of water to AJ&K under Mangla Dam raising agreement. Only Punjab supported water rights of AJK. The matter was once again referred to the prime Minister. This time round, the Cabinet Division opposed allocation of Water to AJ&K and advised PM to refer this matter to the provinces for their consent.*


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## Patriot

I support AJK on this.AJK people are far more patriotic then then arrogant Sindhis, Punjabis and Pathans.


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## dabong1

Our PM is so cheap........he could have asked more stuff like cheaper or free electric and maybe a joint mirpur-jehlum airport.


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## Adwitiya

Nice move by AJK


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## PAFAce

*Q - What do you mean by Azadi (freedom) I asked him? 
1. &#8220;We don&#8217;t want the Indian army here&#8221;.
2. &#8220;We want India to be out of Kashmir. We don&#8217;t want to be part of India.&#8221;
3. &#8220;We will have azadi (freedom) from India and run our own government, or join Pakistan&#8221;, he said.*

What's so difficult to understand about this? The people of the Valley of Kashmir are pretty much unanimous in their demand to separate from the rest of India, and yet you complain about "confusion". Read the above lines; is the message not clear enough to you? The meaning of "Azadi" for Kashmiris today is _still_ what it was in 1947, because for them this is the _same_ fight. Condition 3. (merger with Pakistan or an independent state) are only possible if the first two conditions are satisfied. That is where the efforts are being concentrated, and that is something that some Kashmiris and Pakistanis believe can only be achieved through militancy. I hope they are wrong, but 4 decades of peaceful struggle didn't get them anywhere, did it?



EjazR said:


> If ultimate aim of some Muslims of the Valley of Kashmir is to join Pakistan then that could be called accession and not azadi or freedom.[/B] Perhaps these people don&#8217;t know that the people of Pakistan are also in search of freedom since 1947, and they haven&#8217;t seen that yet; and in frustration they are looking for alternatives and some are clearly talking of breaking away from Pakistan.


Amazing. What an unwarranted and ill-researched statement. "Pakistanis want to break away from Pakistan". You conveniently forgot all the secessionist movements inside India, or the nationalist movements inside pretty much _any_ other developing country in the World. I really don't see how this is relevant to Kashmir.

Needless to say, if we were to ask Mr. Yasin Malik his opinions, they would differ quite a bit.



EjazR said:


> If we want peace and stability in South Asia then we need to resolve the Kashmir dispute; and we cannot resolve the Kashmir dispute by making it a Muslim problem or a problem of water and resources. It is deeply disturbing that despite enormous sacrifices by the people of Jammu and Kashmir the Kashmir dispute is still perceived as a dispute which has to be resolved by the governments of India and Pakistan.


Pakistan has repeatedly said that the issue must be resolved _along_ with the people of Kashmir. They _must_ be considered a third-party in the negotiations, and should not be forced to sit out every time. At the very least, the issue must be resolved to their satisfaction. The _other_ side is bent on denying them this. We have seen Indian members _repeatedly_ claim that Kashmir must not be allowed a say in the matter.

When I try to raise this point, I'm mobbed by trolls. However, when a member with an Indian flag posts this article, all the negatives in it are conveniently forgotten and he is "thanked" for it. What's with the double standards?

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## EjazR

Solomon2 said:


> EjazR, what you are describing is a suitable opening position for India in its discussions with Pakistan. From there, you'll have to be flexible if you want to make progress.
> 
> After all, how many cease-fires between Israel and Egypt and Jordan were violated? A lot! Yet both countries have peace treaties with Israel today. Do you think that would have happened if these countries had stood on their "rights" rather than make bold initiatives?



The LoC results in a lot of ceasefire violations as well between India and Pakistan. The GoI has shown flexibility on Kashmir issue during the composite dialogue between Musharraf and Vajpayee and later Musharraf and Singh. More recently some significant tracts of land claimed by Bangladesh was agreed to be returned in a phased manner without any major diplomatic hurdles.

However, one thing that GoI would not be able to do - and IMO the GoP or the security establishment in Pakistan doesn't realize yet - is to be seen as kneeling down in front of terror groups like HUJI Hizb and LeT (aka JuD). The perception that GoI has come to the negotiating table because of their terror tactics would be unacceptable to the Indian public and would have grave consequences in Pakistan itself as well. These groups will become more powerful if they are even "perceived" among the Pakistani public to have the power to alter events in India.

That is where we are stuck at present. Otherwise as per some GoP and GoI officials , before the 2008 Mumbai attacks we were just an announcement away from a settlement.

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## EjazR

^^^
First of all, I would just like to clarify that both the articles are written by a person who was born on the Pakistani side of Kashmir and was also a JKLF founding member in the same league as Yasin Malik. 

The confusion is that most of the "Sepratist sentiment" in India is for independance and a small section of that is for joiining Pakistan. BUT, the indepednace group have no idea that "indepedance" is not part of the UN resolution. Besides, what will "Freedom" from India get them, freedom to practice their religion - which they already have. Freedom to vote and elect their own govt. which they might not get if they join Pakistan. Hence the view that the sepratists are confused is apt. That is why it consists of mainly impressionable youth who are easily swayed by emotions instead of facts.




Regarding getting the locals involved in getting their opinion in the settlement. IMO that is extremely important. Any one who says the locals should have no say in the matter are wrong. Its not the GoI position on this matter either. 

However, at the same time, the local Kashmiris should have knowledge of all the facts (i.e. what do the UN resolutions mean, Independence is not an option e.t.c.) As well as there should be no terror groups operating in Kashmir. HUJI, Hizb, LeT e.t.c. create an environment of fear for any Kashmiri who wants to advocate a pro-govt. point of view or even wants to join a govt. job or service.
This pre-requiste requires GoP's active co-operation. I don't think we will see any resolution if these groups continue to operate freely.

As an example, during the Musharraf era, some hard steps were taken to curtail these groups and composite dialogue had taken the issue forward so much so that apparently we were just an announcement away at a settlement.
2004-2008 even though it had bomb blasts happening across India did not stop the GoI doggedly pursuing resolution of Kashmir with Musharraf with the active involvement of the APHC(excluding Gilani's fringe group) as well as pro-India parties. 

However, after mumbai attacks there is certainly a reversal. Most notably where APHC member Qureshi was shot in the head for advocating talks with the GoI. In such an atmosphere how can Kashmiris honestly say what they want. The countering prevalence of para-military forces is ALSO not conducive and once there is genuine dismantling of Kashmir-centric groups in Pakistan, these should be removed and the local J&K police handed over the duties for policing.

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## EjazR

*Kashmir CBMs also likely in foreign secy level talks*

NEW DELHI: Besides terrorism, strengthening Kashmir related Confidence Building Measures (CBMs) including the cross LoC trade would also form part of agenda for the forthcoming foreign secretary-level talks between India and Pakistan. 
Interacting with Peoples&#8217; Democratic Party (PDP) chief Mehbooba Mufti here on Saturday, Home Minister P. Chidambaram said the bottlenecks in smooth conduct of trade on Srinagar Muzaffarabad and Poonch-Rawalakote routes would be addressed. 
He said government was keen to resolve problems of traders, who are complaining of lack of facilities and faulty system. Home Minister further told Ms. Mufti that government was considering adequate banking facilities including permission for Jammu and Kashmir Bank to open up its branches across the LoC in Pakistan Administered Kashmir.
Chidambaram also said that he would take appropriate measures for creating infrastructure facilities at the Salamabad and Poonch trade centers. Ms. Mufti had earlier complained that some quarters in New Delhi were deliberately creating problems and were bent to fail the cross LoC trade.
Meanwhile, a report from Srinagar said the cross LoC travel, started with much fanfare in 2005 has lost sheen due to severe security scrutiny and cumbersome procedures. During last three months, just 138 passengers have boarded two peace buses. In November alone 337 people have travelled through these buses.
Mufti also raised the issue with the Home Minister Chidambaram, who assured to look into the matter. She told Chidambaram that his decision to allow Kashmiri youth to return to their homes would gain credibility only if he liberalises existing travel facilities for ordinary citizens. She said divided families continue to suffer due to cumbersome procedures. Further a large number of Kashmiris were being denied passports on flimsy grounds. &#8220;Denial of passports was responsible for generating a feeling of siege among the young generation,&#8221; she told Home Minister.


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## Abhiras

Skywalker said:


> keep dreaming.



We are not dreaming...the more & more Indian influence on the world increase...the more & more setback is provided to your mission to disintegrate india....

Whats happening in indian side of kashmir you should not be concerned about....
indian kashmir is even more safer then pakistani mainland

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## neo4moss

-Well now i guess the talk about "AZAD" kashmir is over by now....


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## Solomon2

Very good arguments for putting the onus on Pakistan to make the next step: universal renunciation of terrorism as a tool of policy. Well, before Pakistan can do that, I believe it has to create not a domestic consensus, but at least a coherent argument and core of popular support for doing so. 

*What do the Pakistanis on this forum say to that? * After the events of the past year, are you, personally, ready to renounce terror as a tool in the conflict with India, either public or secret, and to support politicians who advocate the same?


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## Jackdaws

Solomon2 said:


> I don't recall the last time terror arrived with a Canadian or Mexican return address. It has been nearly a century since we had a conflict with Mexico, the Canadian border is open and unpatrolled, we've successfully and peacefully shared the Great Lakes to mutual profit for two hundred years, and through NATO the Canadians and we are allies.
> 
> As for armed intervention elsewhere in the New World in the past century, you should ask the citizens - and former citizens - of Cuba, Haiti, Grenada, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Mexico, Columbia, Panama, etc. whether it was desirable or not; the range of answers may surprise you.
> 
> In short, maybe India _can_ learn something from America.



Sure - India can learn a lot from the USA - civic sense, driving etiquette spring to mind. LOL...turning a blind eye to the AQ Khan network - infact the President of USA certifying year-on-year that Pakistan was not developing nukes, bombing of N and H....


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## Doctor Who

Where are the terrorist cheer leaders now - take out a juloos condemning those bastards responsible for the death of the kid.

*



In a gruesome incident, an 11-day-old baby was killed when a group of men enforcing a strike attacked a vehicle in Baramulla, Jammu and Kashmir, on Monday.

Police said the new-born Irfan was being taken to hospital by his parents, when the matador that they were travelling in was intercepted by some young men protesting against the arrest of some stone-pelters in the area.

The men began beating up the passengers and the infant, who was in his mother's lap, was killed in the ensuing stampede. His four-year-old brother, Ubaid was injured. The new-born had been referred to Baramullah district hospital by the local village doctor.
A case has been registered, but no arrests have been made so far.

Police said the assailants were bent upon enforcing a strike they had called in protest against the arrest of some people for stone-pelting. In a mammoth crackdown, in the last month, more than 100 separatists and stone-pelters have been arrested under the Public Safety Act - an Act that provides for two years of imprisonment without trial

Click to expand...

*
Men enforcing strike kill 11-day-old infant in Kashmir

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## DavyJones

Despicable act. These stone pelting youth should be punished for this hooliganism. I doubt if they know anything about the Kashmir issue or why they are pelting stones at policemen. Youngsters all over the world drive fast cars, drink, or chase women. Kashmiri youth pelt stones. They need to grow up sooner and act more maturely.
Btw there was a report recently that they are paid for stone pelting.


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## Solomon2

Welcome to the latest _intifada._


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## Ghost

Who paid those brutal men to murder a Kashmiri infant and injure the other child? Why no arrests have been made?


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## LCA Tejas

Ghost said:


> Who paid those brutal men to murder a Kashmiri infant and injure the other child? Why no arrests have been made?



Whom will you arrest, every single person who pelted stones and Protested? Does that make any sense to you?


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## hembo

*Murder case against the killers of 11-day-old baby - Omar*
Tue, Feb 23 05:50 PM

Jammu, Feb. 23 -- Chief Minister Omar Abdullah has promised to take very strong action against the stone pelters who caused the death of a 11-day-old baby in north Kashmir district of Baramullah on Monday, stunning the people all across the state. He has asked the police to identify the stone pelters and register a case of murder against them. "These goondas should be awarded severe punishment." Omar who has been facing flak over police inaction against the stone throwers in the Valley, demanded to know from those talking about the rights of the stone pelters, "whether the 11-day bad didn't have the right to grow." He promised that he would go all out to seek justice for the baby and his four-year-sibling injured in the stone pelting. A visibly disturbed Omar said that it was shocking that stone pelters targeted the vehicle of Irfan whose parents were taking him for a medical check up. "These goondas killed the baby," he said. Omar attributed this action of the stone throwers to the "encouragement from various opposition groups, particularly the principal opposition party based in Kashmir." This was a clear reference to the main opposition PDP that has been talking of the rights of the stone pelters and chastising the government for its action against the stone throwers. PDP president Mehbooba Mufti on Monday had stated that the youth were pelting stones because the government had failed to honour its promises made to the people of Kashmir. "The opposition had been demanding justice for the stone pelters, now I am asking, didn't 11-day-old baby had the right to justice," Omar asked. "Did this baby had no right to grow." Omar made it plain that he would offer no apologies for action against stone pelters. The security forces have been asked to deal with utmost restraint with the stone pelters. "But, where they would take law into their hands, they would have to face consequences," he said. "I will not allow 700-800 stone throwers to hold one crore people hostage."

The culprit was identified in four days and was taken into police custody.


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## Solomon2

LCA Tejas said:


> Whom will you arrest, every single person who pelted stones and Protested? Does that make any sense to you?


Jail the leaders and penalize their followers.

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## Abhiras

that is True pakistan.........& ironically they ask for freedom of kashmir


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## LCA Tejas

Solomon2 said:


> Jail the leaders and penalize their followers.



there is no representative for the stone pelters who have covered there face, so how do u know whos the leader and Whos protesting???


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## Solomon2

LCA Tejas said:


> how do u know whos the leader and Whos protesting???


That's what good police work is for.


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## dabong1

NEW DELHI: A sharp U-turn by the opposition Bhartiya Janata Party (BJP) over the Kashmir dispute has been indicated by one of its top think tank members, who has suggest that India should give up its claim on the valley or else go for joint sovereignty.

The idea was propounded by Chandan Mitra, editor of the Pioneer, who is also the BJP national executive member. However, even he doubts that such a gesture would restore permanent peace with Pakistan. The Hindu nationalist BJP may wriggle out of the expected controversy over the issue, by describing it as a personal view of Mitra and not that of the party as it did in the wake of a series of articles written by former union minister Arun Shourie. But still, such views coming from one of its think-tank members is shocking.

Writing in the Sunday issue of the Pioneer, Mitra says a small but influential section of public opinion has been pleading for flexibility in the government approach over the Kashmir issue. He states, Some important opinion makers have, in fact, gone on record to suggest that India will gain, not lose, stature if it gives up the Kashmir valley in order to buy peace with Pakistan. At any rate, we will stop bleeding in the valley and the world would look upon us as a mature, self-assured, emerging global power once the thorn of Kashmir is removed, he said, toying with veteran BJP leader Lal Krishna Advanis line that no one other than Jawaharlal Nehru internationalised the issue by scurrying to the UN in 1948 and pledged India to conduct a plebiscite in the state. iftikhar gilani
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

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## Hyde

Kashmir banay ga Pakistan


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Beautiful news...Applause


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## saurabh

dabong1 said:


> NEW DELHI: A sharp U-turn by the opposition Bhartiya Janata Party (BJP) over the Kashmir dispute has been indicated by one of its top think tank members, who has suggest that India should give up its claim on the valley or else go for joint sovereignty.
> 
> The idea was propounded by Chandan Mitra, editor of the Pioneer, who is also the BJP national executive member. However, even he doubts that such a gesture would restore permanent peace with Pakistan. The Hindu nationalist BJP may wriggle out of the expected controversy over the issue, by describing it as a personal view of Mitra and not that of the party as it did in the wake of a series of articles written by former union minister Arun Shourie. But still, such views coming from one of its think-tank members is shocking.
> 
> Writing in the Sunday issue of the Pioneer, Mitra says a small but influential section of public opinion has been pleading for flexibility in the government approach over the Kashmir issue. He states, Some important opinion makers have, in fact, gone on record to suggest that India will gain, not lose, stature if it gives up the Kashmir valley in order to buy peace with Pakistan. At any rate, we will stop bleeding in the valley and the world would look upon us as a mature, self-assured, emerging global power once the thorn of Kashmir is removed, he said, toying with veteran BJP leader Lal Krishna Advanis line that no one other than Jawaharlal Nehru internationalised the issue by scurrying to the UN in 1948 and pledged India to conduct a plebiscite in the state. iftikhar gilani
> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan



Ha ha, this guy should watch his back...
60 years for border problems are too much. We should take some solid initiative now.


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## mrwarrior006

> Kashmir banay ga Pakistan



kyuon bahi ise phele to free kashmir(buffer country) ki mang kar rahe the na

kashmir kabhi pakistan ka nahi ho sakta


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## r3alist

kashmir is intrinsically a spiritual, religious, cultural and ethnically contiguous part of pakistan, there is no debate of if it should belong to pakistan, its just how to convince the indians that kashmir and india do not belong with one another, like oil and water, they do not mix.

indians look inside yourself, after decades of resenting anglo saxon domination do you guys really want to be neo-imperialists?


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## dabong1

I think the joint sovereignty route is the most realistic.


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## dabong1

I dont think these no need for people to get all jingostic as this is a victory for india-pakistan if this comes through.

Joint sovereignty would mean that both India and Pakistan have equal jurisdiction over the territory. Both Indian and Pakistani currency would circulate, and the residents would have Kashmiri passports under the jurisdiction of both India and Pakistan. The state would have its own legislature, with as much governance as possible decentralized to the local cities and villages,the Swiss cantons comes to mind.


There have been several areas historically that had joint sovereignty, including Andorra in Europe, the New Hebrides islands in the Pacific, West Berlin before German unification, and the Sudan in Egypt under the United Kingdom and Egypt. It would not be a simple matter to implement, but if it can prevent a war, the price is cheap.http://www.progress.org/fold250.htm

The proposed solution has to be acceptable to India, Pakistan and the inhabitants of the disputed territory. Being acceptable does not mean ideal though, because a solution considered ideal by all parties simply does not exist. The solution must be clear and straightforward in regard to the political and military agreements, with no tricks up one's sleeve, no hidden agenda, no one-upmanship. 
Special areas or zones would have to be designated: the Karakoram Highway and adjoining territory would be under the exclusive control of the Pakistan army; likewise the Ladakh Highway and adjoining territory would be under the exclusive control of the Indian army. The Siachen glacier would be a demilitarized zone. As a confidence-building measure the Pakistan army would have the right to send observers to the special Indian zone, while the Indian army would have the right to send military observers to the Pakistan's exclusive zone.

In matters of economics and finance, decisions regarding the establishment of the central bank, currency matters, revenue and taxation and customs duties, and subsidies to Kashmir would have to be tackled. While the Indus Waters Treaty governs the distribution of water resources between India and Pakistan, the sharing of natural resources, including hydropower resources between India, Pakistan and the Kashmiris, would also have to be decided.http://www.dawn.com/2004/11/01/op.htm


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## Skeptic

dabong1 said:


> NEW DELHI: A sharp U-turn by the opposition Bhartiya Janata Party (BJP) over the Kashmir dispute has been indicated by one of its top think tank members, who has suggest that India should give up its claim on the valley or else go for &#8220;joint sovereignty&#8221;.
> 
> The idea was propounded by Chandan Mitra, editor of the Pioneer, who is also the BJP national executive member. However, even he doubts that such a gesture would restore permanent peace with Pakistan. The Hindu nationalist BJP may wriggle out of the expected controversy over the issue, by describing it as a personal view of Mitra and not that of the party as it did in the wake of a series of articles written by former union minister Arun Shourie. But still, such views coming from one of its think-tank members is &#8220;shocking&#8221;.
> 
> Writing in the Sunday issue of the Pioneer, Mitra says a small but influential section of public opinion has been pleading for &#8220;flexibility&#8221; in the government approach over the Kashmir issue. He states, &#8220;Some important opinion makers have, in fact, gone on record to suggest that India will gain, not lose, stature if it gives up the Kashmir valley in order to buy peace with Pakistan.&#8221; &#8220;At any rate, we will stop bleeding in the valley and the world would look upon us as a mature, self-assured, emerging global power once the &#8216;thorn&#8217; of Kashmir is removed,&#8221; he said, toying with veteran BJP leader Lal Krishna Advani&#8217;s line that no one other than Jawaharlal Nehru internationalised the issue by scurrying to the UN in 1948 and pledged India to conduct a plebiscite in the state. iftikhar gilani
> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


Yup and you must have been through the clarifications as well:



> I am aghast at the diabolical attempt by certain persons with obvious separatist sympathies to distort my article &#8220;A &#8216;moth-eaten&#8217; India?&#8221; which appeared in The Pioneer on Sunday February 21, 2010. A canard is being spread by a Kashmiri commentator Iftikhar Gilani, who writes for Kashmir Times, that I have argued against the BJP&#8217;s stand on Jammu and Kashmir and advocated &#8220;free Kashmir or joint sovereignty&#8221; for the State. I am truly appalled by the deliberate and motivated distortion of my beliefs by Mr Gilani and his ilk.
> 
> In the article, I had strongly denounced the views of a &#8220;small but influential section of public opinion in India&#8221;, which often argues that New Delhi should think out of the box and consider options such as &#8220;joint sovereignty&#8221; and even consider &#8220;giving up&#8221; the State in view of the mounting loss of life. Having summarized their utterly ridiculous suggestions, which are now being mischievously attributed to me, I went on to describe these people as &#8220;appeasement-peddlars&#8221;. I accused them of overlooking the bloodthirsty diatribe of jihadi leaders like Abdul Rahman Makki and other &#8220;luminaries of the Rogue&#8217;s Gallery of terror&#8221;, namely, leaders of Jamaat-ud-Dawa which I described as a euphemism for Lashkar-e-Tayyaba.
> 
> The entire thrust of my article was that there cannot be any compromise with jihadi elements who have vowed to dismember Jammu and Kashmir from India. I sharply criticized the UPA Government&#8217;s ambivalent stand with reference to India&#8217;s capitulation before a Pakistan at Sharm-el-Sheikh. I concluded by warning the nation against the jihadi and Pakistani plot to wage a 1000-year war on India to make it a moth-eaten entity.
> 
> Anybody with rudimentary knowledge of the English language could not have misunderstood my argument. Therefore, to pick out my summary of the views of separatists and their closet sympathizers in India smacks of a wily, premeditated ploy to mislead and confuse the people. It is also aimed at embarrassing the BJP for I am a member of its National Executive and speak in its support at various public forums including TV channels.
> 
> I strongly denounce this pre-planned mischief-making. There is no question of my having ever supported the separatists&#8217; argument. Jammu and Kashmir is an integral part of India and the country will not countenance the diabolical attempt by jihadi groups, assisted by a handful of home-grown separatists and sections of the Pakistani Establishment, to tear India apart whether by force or fanciful formulas like &#8220;joint sovereignty&#8221;.
> 
> Bharatiya Janata Party - The Party with a Difference - Press Statement Issued by Shri Chandan Mitra Ex-MP (Rajya Sabha)



And here is the article: Make your judgment.


> A small but influential section of public opinion in India has been pleading for &#8220;flexibility&#8221; in the Government&#8217;s approach to the Kashmir issue. Some important opinion makers have, in fact, gone on record to suggest that India will gain, not lose, stature if it gives up the Kashmir Valley in order to buy peace with Pakistan. At any rate, we will stop bleeding in the Valley and the world would look upon us as a mature, self-assured, emerging global power once the &#8220;thorn&#8221; of Kashmir is removed. They argue that none other than Jawaharlal Nehru internationalised the issue by scurrying to the UN in 1948 and pledged India to conduct a plebiscite in the State.
> 
> After losing nearly 1,00,000 lives in 22 years of insurgency, isn&#8217;t it high time that Delhi considered this &#8220;out-of-the-box&#8221; solution? And if that is not quite practical yet, what about joint sovereignty? Why can&#8217;t undivided J&K have a united quasi-Parliament thereby abolishing borders and giving equal say to India, Pakistan and the &#8220;people&#8221; of the State over its destiny? Washington, which loves such complex arrangements that facilitate a permanent foothold for itself in strategic regions, (erstwhile Yugoslavia being a case in point) has privately pushed this line for long. There may not be too many takers for such abject capitulation, but the fact that these views are increasingly aired in public appears to have put the Government on the defensive. Under pressure from Washington, New Delhi stonewalled the legitimate demand to call off the proposed Foreign Secretary-level talks despite last week&#8217;s blast in Pune.
> 
> This section of appeasement peddlers are, therefore, certain to overlook the menacing threat conveyed earlier this month by Jamaat-ud-Dawa (euphemism for Laskhar-e-Tayyeba) deputy chief Abdur Rahman Makki. Speaking at a Kashmir Day rally in Islamabad on February 5, the fire-spewing Makki not only let slip that Pune was on their radar, but also declared that jihad was also to be waged against the alleged denial of river water to Pakistan. This is a very significant addition to Pakistan&#8217;s agenda, doubly important because it is a &#8220;secular&#8221; inter-governmental matter rather than emotional or Islamist. The annexation of Kashmir on grounds of its denominational character is a declared jihadi objective. But Talibani/jihadi forces had so far refrained from dovetailing this issue with other disputed matters between India and Pakistan.
> 
> The specific reference to river waters suggests that despite pretending to have no truck with jihadis, the Pakistani Government is covertly in cahoots with them and could well have prompted the hardliners to raise the water issue to bring additional pressure on India. Further, it is also likely that the jihadis believe it is a matter of time before Pakistan&#8217;s civilian Government collapses and hard-line groups seize power in Islamabad with the support of ISI. They have thus initiated the process of understanding matters of statecraft so they can play an effective role in a future Government &#8212; a chilling prospect indeed.
> 
> This brings us to the fundamental question: Will Pakistan&#8217;s blood-feud with India ever end? Will Islamabad be satisfied even if, for argument&#8217;s sake, Delhi agrees to part with the Kashmir Valley? All these years, Pakistani leaders across political hues kept harping primarily on Kashmir, former President Musharraf candidly declaring it to be the core issue. After resisting this classification for some years, India succumbed, saying it was ready to discuss Kashmir if Pakistan addressed our concern over cross-border terror. At Sharm-al-Sheikh, India bent down further agreeing, first, to delink terror from talks acknowledging Pakistan too was a victim and, second, to bring Balochistan on the table. Events of the last few months culminating in Delhi&#8217;s latest genuflection clearly establish that the Sharm-al-Sheikh joint declaration was not a case of &#8220;bad drafting&#8221; as the Government wanted us to believe. It was, in fact, a formal statement of India&#8217;s revised position which also amounted to quietly admitting Pakistan&#8217;s charge that we have fomented disaffection in Balochistan.
> 
> A pattern is now rapidly falling into place. First Pakistan forced us to agree, howsoever reluctantly, that Kashmir was indeed the &#8220;core issue&#8221;. Second, it got us embroiled in the problem of Balochistan whose mere mention in an official document was sufficient for Islamabad to claim victory.
> 
> And finally, by getting jihadis to talk about the water dispute, Pakistan has ensured that the arena of its conflict with India continues to widen. As it gets its way on one, it pushes forward a second and then a third. Shrewdly assessing the Obama Administration&#8217;s burning desire to exit Afghanistan soon, Pakistan is cunningly seeking to get more and more pressure mounted by Washington on Delhi.
> 
> Meanwhile, India&#8217;s humiliation at the London conference and the conclave in Turkey confirms Islamabad&#8217;s resounding diplomatic success in excluding India from the core group on Afghanistan. Having convinced the West that it is as much a victim of jihadi terror as India, Pakistan has also managed to put India on the back-foot over Kashmir. The US is breathing down our neck to concede &#8220;something&#8221; on J&K without insisting on visible progress in clamping down on the masterminds of 26/11. It is a measure of Delhi&#8217;s pathetic helplessness that JuD/LeT supremo Hafiz Sayed, his No 2 Rahman Makki and all luminaries of the Rogue&#8217;s Gallery of terror **** a snook at us and hold public rallies pledging a bloodbath for Kashmir&#8217;s &#8220;liberation&#8221;, while India meekly pleads for immediate resumption of talks with a triumphant Pakistan!
> 
> As far as the issue of water is concerned, there is frankly nothing to discuss. The Baglihar Dam on the Chenub was referred to the World Bank by Pakistan and the independent arbitrator gave a go-ahead to India with a few suggested modifications. Under the Indus Water Treaty of 1955, India is entitled to the use of the waters of Ravi, Beas and Sutlej while Pakistan has legitimate rights over Jhelum and Chenub, but the usage is subject to certain conditions. India has adhered to these in constructing the Baglihar Dam, which will generate 450 MW of electricity for power-starved Kashmir, but the flow of Chenub waters to Pakistan will not be blocked.
> 
> The jihadi threat to forcibly extract more water from India clearly flies in the face of international agreements and counter-guarantees. In any case, jihadis probably neither comprehend the details of such binding agreements, nor do they care for international opinion. The opening of the water front by jihadi groups is aimed solely at aggravating alleged Pakistani angst against India, thereby legitimising their ongoing campaign of terror. Makki&#8217;s bloodthirsty diatribe, saying that &#8220;denial&#8221; of water justifies targeting cities like Delhi, Kanpur and Pune, that is, places way beyond Jammu and Kashmir, gives the game away.
> 
> Who knows what more will be added to the jihadi wish-list in the years to come? Hyderabad, Junagadh, Assam, Kolkata? Jinnah complained in 1947 that he had been tricked into accepting a &#8220;moth-eaten Pakistan&#8221;. The jihadis are carrying forward the promised 1,000-year war to reduce India to a moth-eaten entity, within and without.
> 
> http://www.dailypioneer.com/237426/A-&#8216;moth-eaten&#8217;-India.html

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## ejaz007

*Infant dies amid clashes in IHK*

SRINAGAR: An 11-day-old baby died while a dozen people were injured during protests in the Indian-held Kashmir (IHK), police said on Tuesday. The mother dropped her baby during a melee involving demonstrators and it later died in a hospital on Monday near Baramullah, police official AQ Manhas said. He said the police registered a murder case and were investigating the death. Angry protests have roiled the troubled IHK region for the last three days over the recent arrest of more than a 100 demonstrators. According to the police, at least 12 people, including two television cameramen and one photographer, were injured as nearly 500 protesters clashed with the police in 
Srinagar on Monday. However, there were no reports of violence on Tuesday. ap

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## Spitfighter

Where's all the chest beating and slogan chanting now? 

Hypocrites.

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## EjazR

Another report from a local news portal. Mother is more explicit on who the culprits are

*Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - Stone throwers killed my child: Kulsooma*

Asem Mohiuddin
Rafiabad, Feb 23: The family of the infant, who died on Monday when he fell from the lap of her mother while stone throwers were stopping the movement of vehicles in north Kashmir&#8217;s Sopore township, alleged that the infant was killed due to the &#8216;assault&#8217; of stone-pelters when they stormed into the bus.


Speaking to Rising Kashmir, the mother of the infant, Kulsooma Begum said nearly a dozen youth, who halted the passenger bus near Chakloo bus stop, barged into the vehicle and thrashed passengers.

&#8220;They dragged passengers. My husband and my father Ghulam Rasool who accompanied me was also thrashed. They dragged my father down and my four-year-old son Ubaid who was in his lap slipped and fell. However, he survived the injury on his head. When I attempted to avoid confrontation, the infant Irfan was in my lap. Around five stone throwers scuffled with us during, which Irfan was &#8216;pressed hard&#8217; and experienced some internal injuries,&#8221; Kulsooma said breaking in tears.

She said: &#8220;Irfan started oozing blood from the nose. Seeing this, the protesting youth panicked. They boarded a Tata Suma vehicle and asked me to bring along the infant. We rushed toward Sub District Hospital Baramulla. However, sensing trouble, the youth exchanged told a Maruti vehicle driver to rush us to the hospital and refused to come themselves.&#8221;

Kulsooma said that on reaching the hospital, the doctors informed her that the child could not survive. &#8220;After few hours, the hospital authorities declared Irfan dead.&#8221;

Doctors at the hospital said that besides internal injuries, the cause of Irfan&#8217;s death was hypothermia.

Senior Superintendent of Police, Baramulla, Shakeel Ahmad Beigh told Rising Kashmir that police would track down the involved people within a few days.

&#8220;We&#8217;ve reports about the involvement of certain people. However, we can&#8217;t reveal their names now as they may go absconding. The culprits will be arrested within few days,&#8221; the SSP said.

-----------
*Residents condemn infant's death in Baramulla during stone pelting *

Baramulla (J-K), Feb.23 (ANI): The tragic death of an 11-day old in Jammu and Kashmir's Barramulla town during the stone-pelting on Monday has been widely condemned by residents.

Buzz up!
The gory incident has shocked the entire state and has been widely denounced by all.


"They (protesters) while protesting should not cause harm. They should have allowed the infant to go. If he had reached hospital in time he would not have been dead. No condemnation is enough for the incident," said Rafiq Mirza, a resident of the town.

"Yesterday's (Feb. 22) incident is very regretful. He (the baby) was suffering from some illness
and was going to Sopore. Stone-throwers didn't allow them to proceed further. Stone-pelting causes lots of hardship to people," said Junaid Malik, another resident of the town.

"The ailing baby was being taken to hospital in an SUV on Monday (February 22), when a group of youths forced it to stop. They pulled out the passengers and thrashed them up and in the mjlie, the infant fell and injured his head. The 11-day old succumbed to his injuries by the time he reached the hospital," said Nissar Ahmad, the baby boy's father.

The baby boy's three-year-old brother also sustained injuries when he fell to the ground from the lap of his grandfather.

"A group of youth protesters came in a Sumo (an SUV) and pushed passengers, breaking his (the victim's brother) head; he is just three years old. He (the infant) was 11-days-old. They (protesters) kicked him and smashed him into the window. He started bleeding from his nose and as we reached the hospital, doctors told us that he is dead," said Nissar Ahmad, baby's father.

The clashes between demonstrators and security
forces broke out not only in Baramullah but also in adjoining areas of Srinagar city, over the arrest of two youths on Sunday (February 21). (ANI)


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## EjazR

Solomon2 said:


> Welcome to the latest _intifada._



There is no comparison with the Palestine-Israel situation and the situation in Kashmir. Intifada is hardly the term to use where special interest groups are causing problems. And when the average people don't take part in their protests, they are thrashed. In other cases they might just be referred as hooligans


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## karan.1970

May be the so called freedom fighters will call this a shahadat of the 11 day old baby and twist it around someway to blame India for the same


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## EjazR

*Troubled for a year, J&K cops nab ?kingpin? of stone-pelters - India - The Times of India*

SRINAGAR: Jammu & Kashmir police claimed to have achieved a major breakthrough in its campaign against stone-pelting in the Valley with the arrest of a former militant and the alleged kingpin of a gang of stone-pelters in Srinagar on Monday.

Near-daily incidents of stone-pelting have become a major headache for the cops at several places in the Valley, particularly around Maisuma in downtown Srinagar. Motley crowds, comprising mainly youth, believed to be part of the gang regularly resort to stoning in a bid to keep the pot boiling as the violence has dipped to an all-time low since 1989.

A police officer said Irshad Ahmed Zargar, a former member of now defunct al- Jehad outfit, was responsible for &#8216;&#8216;every stone-pelting incident on the Valley&#8217;s streets&#8217;&#8217;. He said Zargar was picked up from his Srinagar residence following a tip-off from &#8216;&#8216;some law-abiding citizen&#8217;&#8217;. Police said another 50 stone-pelters were also arrested. &#8216;&#8216;The gang gets money from some businessmen and separatist groups,&#8217;&#8217; the officer said.

He said Zargar was arrested after cops received an e-mail on the gang&#8217;s modus-operandi and source of funding.
Srinagar SSP Javid Riyaz Bedar said police were investigating the issue. &#8216;&#8216;It would be premature to accuse any individual of funding the gang,&#8217;&#8217; he said. Bedar said police were trying to get Zargar&#8217;s past militant record.

A group of five masked boys, who assailed the Hurriyat, had recently appeared before the media and asked youth to stone cops &#8216;&#8216;to divert world attention towards the Kashmir issue&#8217;&#8217;. Bedar said the police have identified the five and would take action against them. More than 2,000 people have been injured in stone-pelting incidents in last one year.

A group of around 60 policemen, with another 100 in the backup team, are dedicated to control Maisuma&#8217;s stone-pelters and have mastered the art of shielding themselves and preventing the youth from disturbing life in the neighbouring areas.


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## HAWK73

Zaki said:


> Kashmir banay ga Pakistan



Inshallah!


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## EjazR

*Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - CM counters Oppn with figures*

_More HR violations occurred in PDP regime
Govt ready to release stone throwers if area heads give written assurance_

Abid Bashir
Jammu, Feb 25: Blaming opposition Peoples Democratic Party of having double standards, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah Thursday countered the Opposition with figures on human rights violation proving that more violations took place in PDP regime and added that he was ready to release all stone-throwers if area heads and elders give written assurances.

Asserting that stone-pelting was confined to few old-city areas, Sopore and Baramulla town, the Chief Minister said infiltration level and militant activities had shown a spurt in 2010.

Reacting to Governor N N Vohras recent address to joint session of the members of the Legislative Assembly and Legislative Council, the chief minister, armed with figures, said he wished PDP members could listen to his speech in the House. The day I became the head of the State, I decided not to dig the past but the way PDP has been behaving here, I was forced to open all previous files, Omar said.

Accusing PDP of being dubious, Omar said in the Assembly they show one face and in the District Development Board meetings, they shower praises on the government. I believe the face they show in the DDB is their real face, he said.

The chief minister said he wanted the Opposition to play a positive role rather than create problems unnecessarily.

*They sought debate on human rights and were allowed. Debate means discussion one a one-sided speech. They should have patience to listen us too, Omar said.*

*He said they labeled National Conference-Congress coalition as PSA government and Adam Khor Sarkar. One thing should be clear that I will not allow some 800 stone- throwers to take entire Kashmir hostage, he said.*

He said: *In PDP regime, 1231 PSAs were slapped on people in three years. My government has slapped PSA on only 370 people so far, Omar said.*

The chief minister said PDP labeled coalition government as Adam Khor Sarkar (Man Eater Government) but added that the fact was that *in PDPs three-year tenure, 2205 civilians were killed. In my government, only 94 civilians got killed, he said.*

Omar said PDP had been saying that a sense of insecurity had increased among the people as women were being raped and molested. *Let me start from Farooq Abdullahs time. In Farooqs sahibs six year term, 11 rapes and five molestations took place but in Mufti Muhammad Sayeeds time, 38 rapes and 37 molestation cases were registered, he said.*

The chief minister said during Ghulam Nabi Azads term as chief minister of the State, only 13 rapes and seven molestation cases took place. Keeping this in view, if PDP thinks, we would bow before their lies, they are mistaken.

He said PDP had been maintaining in the House that the government had adopted bullet for stone policy. They have forgotten when Mufti Muhammad Sayeed was Home Minister, bullets were showered on peaceful protestors at Gow Kadal where 30 people were killed. They have forgotten bullets were showered on the funeral of Mirwaiz Molvi Muhammad Farooq. How many records shall I open, Omar said.

He said PDP talks about Zahid Farooqs killing but doesnt talk about the arrest of BSF man. It was for the first time in 20 years that a trooper was handed over to Police. Can they (PDP) prove how many guilty troopers were handed over to police in their period, Omar asked. For the first time, International Human Rights Watch appreciated the State government for such a brave step.

The chief minister said he was ready to release all stone-throwers if the area heads and Imams of Masjids would give him written assurance that those youth wont indulge in such acts again. *If I receive assurance from the elders, Ill release all stone-throwers tomorrow, he said.
*
Omar said stones dont hurt a politician but a poor man whose life depends on his day-to-day earnings.

The chief minister appealed youth to come forward and join the mainstream camp. What for are you fighting? For the past 20 years, gun has not managed to move an inch of land from one place to other. How can stones help? Local bodies and Panchayats elections are coming. Come and fight these elections and raise your issues at a better platform, Omar said.

*He said stone pelting was confined to seven or eight police stations that include five police stations of old-city, Sopore and old town Baramulla. So, it cant be said that entire Kashmir is on boil. Kashmir is beyond these places, Omar said.*

He said 2010 has shown a surge in militant activities as well as the level of infiltration. Year 2008 witnessed less infiltration. The level of infiltration increased in 2009 and it has shown a spurt since 1st January 2010, the chief minister said.

He said security agencies had been directed to step up operations in Sopore area which witnessed increase in militant activities.

Omar reiterated that rehabilitation of youth who crossed over to Pakistan administered Kashmir in 1990s for arms training but now want to come back, was a must. *I have a proof that many youth are coming via Nepal on fake passports. Were watching the activities of some youth whove come back. There are many youth who want to start their life afresh. They need to be rehabilitated, he said.*

The chief minister said the government was committed to address the issue of unemployment through Sher-e-Kashmir Employment and Welfare Program. Unfortunately, PDP opposed this policy too. The policy is yet to be started but they opposed. I promise this policy will be a success, he said.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

malaymishra123 said:


> Nope. Most Pakistani's are comfortable with the idea of Jehadis fighting the infidel Hindu Bharat in Kashmir. Afterall the 'mujahids' are fighting the terrorist Indian Army
> 
> As long as they are not bothered with a blow back, most dont mind it.



Mali do u even know what a infidel means?
About the blow packs i dont mind if safron bandits with tridents in hand dont atack mosques and kill 4000 people.
And about Kashmiri mujahedeen.Ever wonder why even after 62 years Kashmiris arent integrated into indian society and still maintain a seperate identity and are confronting indian occupiers?even after 100000 have embraced martyrdom?


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## MarkTheTruth

Despite the continued employment of various methods of state terrorism on the freedom fighters and the innocent protesters in the occupied Kashmir, Indian armed forces have been demoralised in crushing the war of liberation.

In the Indian-held Kashmir, since 1947, Indian military troops have been using barbaric tactics of extra-judicial killings, burning the houses, torture etc. to suppress the genuine freedom movement of the Kashmiris. Last year, discovery of nearly 1000 graves of the unmarked Muslims in the Indian-held Kashmir showed another evidence of Indian military terrorism. Recently, more such graves have been discovered. Reports suggest that these Muslims were tortured to deaths by the Indian army during custody.

In fact, under the cover of various anti-terrorim laws of the country, Indian armed forces have committed multiple brutal crimes such as encounter killings, illegal custody, torture, forced confession, rape of women, corruption, robbing the houses, kidnappings etc.

The fact of the matter is that when Kashmiri people lost faith in the international community, which persisted in ignoring their liberation and when it became obvious that the Indian occupying forces would not vacate the controlled areas through political means, the peoples had no choice but to resort to armed struggle which was actually intensified in 1989.

In fact, present different war between the Indian occupying forces and the Kashmiri freedom fighters is simply a clash of wills between two entities. Military thinkers agree that although the physical force will determine the type and scale of war, yet it is the will to fight or moral force that determines the outcome of war. Clausewitz puts it this way, One might say that the physical force seems little more than the wooden hilt, while moral factors are the precious metal, the real weapon

In his book, Fighting Power: German and U.S. Army Performance, 1939-1945, Creveld identifies the elements of moral force, whom he calls fighting power, the willingness to fight and the readiness, if necessary, to die. The greater these elements, the less vulnerable an armed force will be to demoralisation. Moral force, then, is the crucial factor in determining the combat power of any belligerent.

The ongoing different war between the Indian state terrorists and the Kashmiri people has proved without any doubt that such elements like will to fight and moral force have been more noted in the latter who have exerted psychological impact of causing fear, shock, mental depression and stress, resulting in demoralisation of the Indian military and paramilitary troops.

In this regard, numerous cases of suicides among Indian troopsopening fire on their colleagues and several other tense reactions have been reported in respect of Indian forces in the controlled territories of Kashmir.

In the recent past, Lt. Col. Pankaj Jha shot himself with a service revolver, while Maj Sobha Rani, Capt Sunit Kohli, Lt Sushmita Chatterjee and a number of other officers of the Indian army also did the same in one or the other way.

Indian defence analysts and psychologists have indicated various causes of suicides and fratricides, found in the Indian military, stationed in the Jummu and Kashmir. They have attributed these trends to continuous work under extreme hostile conditions, perpetual threat to life, absence of ideal living conditions, lack of recreational avenues, and of course; the home sickness due to long separation from families.

While other experts have pointed out that the growing stress in the Indian armed forces is owing to low morale, bad service conditions, lack of adequate home leave, unattractive pay and a communication gap with superiors.

Retired Maj Gen Afsar Karim, who has fought three wars, remarks, The stress may be high among soldiers because of lack of leave. He further explains, The army is involved in a tough long running internal security environment. There is lack of restsoldiers get angry when they are denied leave and their officers themselves take time off. It triggers a reaction, while they are well armed and they take their own lives or those of their colleagues.

Another Indian military analyst reveals, then there is the question of what many say is low paystarting salaries in many jobs in middle-class of India are double that of a new soldier, and for many of them, the army no longer holds out the promise of a good life.

According to the Indian Col SK Sakhuja, soldiers kill each other when one of them perceives that they are being harassed by superiors or when they have heated arguments among themselves.

An Indian parliamentary panel had indicated that the military establishment was not taking reports of suicides and fratricides seriously. The Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence, in its 31st report on Stress management in the armed forces, stated that 635 suicides of soldiers were reported between 2003 and 2007. In addition, 67 fratricidal killings had occurred.

The committee further said that the alarming trend of suicides and fratricidal killings in the armed forces is attributable to increased stress environment leading to psychological imbalance in the soldiers.

However, with the rise in the cases of suicide and fratricide in the Indian armed forces parliament was informed in 2009. In this connection, Defence Minister A.K. Antony revealed in a written reply in the Lok Sabha that of these, there were 48 cases of suicide and one of fratricide in the three services41 suicides were reported from the Indian Army, six from the Indian Air Force, and one from the Indian Navy. He further disclosed that overall, there had been a staggering 495 cases of suicide and 25 cases of fratricide in the armed forces over the past four year. Of these, 154 suicides and 13 fratricides occurred in 2006, 142 suicides and seven fratricides occurred in 2007 and 151 suicides and four fratricides occurred in 2008. Of the total cases, 412 suicides and 24 fratricides were reported from the army, 76 suicides and one fratricide were reported from the air forces and seven suicides were reported from the navy.

Nevertheless, India has also hired the services of counselors, and stationed psychiatrists close to its troops especially in the occupied Kashmir in order to combat stress that has driven many soldiers to kill themselves or fellow soldiers. Director General Medical Sciences Lt. Gen. N.K. Parmar indicated, Sixty psychiatrists have been trained and are working in close coordination with the troopsif there are any signs of stress, this will immediately be brought to the commanding officers notice.

Nonetheless, various security agencies of India, working in the Indian-held Kashmir have now not only engaged counselors and psychologists to combat stress among troops but have also found cure in meditation, music, exercises and yogaall used as techniques against stress and mental disorder.

No doubt, in any conflict zone, the cases of mental depression and stress are common phenomena, but in case of the controlled Kashmir, the trend has increased. It is because of this fact that that Indian armed forces have been so demoralised by fighting with the freedom fighters that either they commit suicide or kill their own colleagues and seniors. They completely lack will to fight or moral force.

Sajjad Shaukat writes on international affairs and is author of the book: US vs Islamic Militants, Invisible Balance of Power: Dangerous Shift in International Relations.

?Demoralised? Indian forces in Kashmir

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## Fighter488

TOI Feed. Dated 28th Feb 2010

*KASHMIRS STONE AGE​*


_The guns have fallen silent in Kashmir; stones have become the weapon of choice for angry young men without jobs or hope _


Sameer Arshad in New Delhi & M Saleem Pandit in Srinagar | TNN 








One chilly day in January, Inayat Khan, 16, left his house in Srinagars Dalgate locality for a tutorial class. Hours later, he was dead. Khans killing, in alleged CRPF firing, triggered angry street protests. For weeks, protesters pelted the police with stones. Two more youths  17-year-old Waqim Farooq and 16-year-old Zahid Farooq  were killed when the police retaliated. 

The violent protests have followed a distinct pattern over the last few years, even as militant violence in the Valley has ebbed to a 20-year low. This is how it happens: an incident sparks stone-pelting followed by police action which leads to injury and sometimes death. Often, the stone-pelting degenerates into a full-blown riot; a police clampdown brings calm but only until the next cycle of action and reaction. 

The police maintain that the separatists orchestrate the stone-throwing protests at a few places to keep the pot boiling because the back of the militant movement is effectively broken. The police claim is backed by casualty figures: civilian deaths plummeted to 74 in 2009, compared to 707 in 2004. Thats when the violence started to dip, following the start of the India-Pakistan peace process. 

Jammu & Kashmir chief minister Omar Abdullah says intelligence agencies have recorded conversations from militant control centres seeking updates on stonepelting. This could just be out of curiosity. Well not be irresponsible to only point fingers at people across the border, he told STOI from Jammu. Omar believes a combination of factors is responsible for the stone-pelting and it would be naïve to say its only driven by vested interests. Its important to underline that only a few places in the Valley are troubled, while Gulmarg and other places are buzzing with tourists. I can count the troublespots on my fingertips  old town Baramulla, Sopore and a few places in downtown Srinagar. Incidentally, these are separatist-dominated areas where the National Conference has been traditionally weak. 

But activists say the problem is not quite that simple. They want the anger to be contextualized. The protests, they say, are 
a manifestation of the governments failure to end the security forces impunity for abuse of civilians. These boys have grown up fearing the uniform and now express their hate by stoning, says Meenakshi Ganguly, senior South Asia researcher for Human Rights Watch. Theyve grown up witnessing violence and are the product of widespread abuse and oppression, she says. Accountability would ensure that vested interests would no longer be able to incite violence. 

The word on the street is an unequivocal yes. Riyaz Ahmed Khan, a 16-year-old from Rajouri Kadal neighbourhood, often joins the stone-pelters. He admits the constant presence of securitymen is an irritant. Riyaz Bhat, 16, says he has no ambition but to fight for my motherland (Kashmir). Bhat lives in a congested lower middle class locality and his father, a coppersmith, can barely make ends meet. The story of yet another 16-year-old, Firoz Ahmed Khan of Maisuma in old Srinagar, is no different. This is often described as the ground zero of the stone-throwing protests. Khan lives with his family in a small house shared with three other families. His father, Zahoor Khan, sells second-hand clothes on a Srinagar pavement. Rather than lofty aspirations for the motherland, the teenager admits he pelts stones at the police to vent his frustration. Were allowed to put up our stall only after paying hafta to the cops, he says. Even after that, they take away part of our earnings. His mother, Mymoona, worries about her sons safety. I try to stop him. But hes innocent and gets carried away, she says. My son was locked up several times but he refuses to give up. 

In an interaction with this paper last year, *Omar *admitted the security forces mindset needed to be altered. The cops (who were) comfortable with the lathi have retired over the last 20 years. Now, we have police personnel trained in a counter-insurgency mindset. We need to switch back to a law and order mindset, he said. You cant deal with stone-pelters with live ammunition. 






Analysts say the relative calm in the Valley hasnt translated into a tangible political resolution. Nor has there been any progress on the revocation of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, an election promise made by both the PDP and NC. This fuels the anger. Add to this the feeling among many Kashmiri youths that theres no future for them. From here, its a small step to the depression that has become so common, notes Briton Justine Hardy, who runs a mental health clinic in Srinagar (see accompanying essay). She says the state continues to produce many graduates and quality education is available. *Yet there are no jobs for the vast majority, which leads to boredom; in a generation conditioned by violence, this can make the young fodder for radicalization. *

New Delhis largesse in terms of addressing economic isolation has meant little, thanks to pandemic corruption. J&K is ranked the second-most corrupt state in India. Even though it gets more money than most other states, little actually gets to the end-user. 

Experts also underline the need to bridge the gap between the government and its people. The government needs to strengthen its base at the grassroots level and ensure the developmental programmes reach the common people, says columnist Javid Iqbal. 

The death of an 11-day-old baby, after stone-pelters clashed with his parents in Baramulla, has led to a backlash against stone-pelting, with even the hawkish Syed Ali Shah Geelani condemning it. The separatist leader, who has often described the stone-pelters as resistance forces, said, We will take a stronger line against the youth; no civilized society would allow it. The influential local daily Rising Kashmir questioned the separatists silence and called for outright condemnation of the stonepelting. (The) community elders (should) admonish the youth who are part of such frenzied mobs who show no respect to civilian lives and treat them as if theyre combatants, the newspaper editorialized. It said the stonepelters had even attacked ambulances. 

A local resident, Inayat Ahmed, says most people want to get on with their lives. Offering a better future is the only way to ensure that youngsters arent radicalized. 

Omar admits there is much to be done. The government is trying to address issues (such as employment). (But) its all linked to the security environment. It becomes a chicken-and-egg story: Do I first get investments into the state or hope to get the situation better?


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## Fighter488

TOI Feed 28th Feb, 2010.

*Children of a violent past see no future ​*


*Justine Hardy *



*We will stop throwing stones when there are no more stones to throw. *
This was how a young man put it to me last week at a psychiatric OPD clinic in Srinagar. He lives in Rainawari. He had joined in the stone-pelting after the recent death of Wamiq Farooq, a boy from his neighbourhood, killed by a teargas canister. 

I asked him if he could imagine a situation where there would be no reason to throw stones. There will always be a reason, he said. 

This young man is 22. He has no memory of Kashmir before the violence. He has been conditioned by a frightened society, and speaks on behalf of a whole section of young Kashmiris, who believe that they have no choices, and so have been pushed to express themselves this way. 

I think it is an act of courage, dont you? another young man said to me a little later. We are throwing stones, even though we know the risks to our lives. Whether we are throwing stones or picking up the gun, the security forces dont see the difference. They will shoot anyway. 






I asked whether he felt that the young men pelting stones over the last few days were truly aware of the risks. At the time an unofficial curfew was still in place in the aftermath of Wamiq Farooqs death. His was the fifth civilian death in a month, and more were to come. People were not able to move around easily, the streets were empty. The young man said they were aware of the risks. 

*That is how he sees it*. 

As an outsider who spends extended periods of time in Kashmir I see it from another point of view. People are usually driven to collective acts of violence for one of two psychological reasons. The *first *is anger, the *second *is the sense that there is nothing to lose. In the case of Kashmir, the first is self-explanatory. The second takes us into the pathology of the minds of many young Kashmiris: you are young; you are educated; the inherent optimism of youth has been damped down at each step in your life; recent apparent economic improvements are being threatened by renewed violence; the possibility of a career is almost non-existent; finding the means to provide for a family in the future seems impossible. In short, almost all of the norms that allow young people to transition into the adult world are unavailable.

*One of the most damaging feelings is that there is no future*. Without a shape to the future, without hope, the human condition usually follows one of two courses: it descends into despair, or it is consumed with a level of rage that drives it to take uncalculated and devastating risks. 

The young men that I speak to are a mix of these two. They are coming to the Government Hospital of Psychiatric Diseases because they are in despair, manifesting as various forms of depression. Or they are trapped in a cycle of rage, anger, and frustration that can cause psychosis or a full mental breakdown in a fragile mind. 

The nature of the young and still forming mind is driven by the need to express itself, and to discover its strengths and limitations. In a violent society this becomes almost impossible. The physical energy of youth is limited by both the cultural mores of a society that is trying to protect itself from violence, and by the harsh parameters imposed on it by curfews, hartals and bandhs. The need to explore what lies ahead seems closed off by the sense that there is no kind of future to be had in Kashmir. The physical anger seeks an outlet or, as another young man said, it will explode inside me, it will really kill me. And so, without rational thought, without planning or consideration of the fallout, young men pick up stones and hurl them with the full force of their rage and frustration at whatever it is they see standing between them and their hope of a future. 

*Justine Hardy* _founded an NGO that aims to heal the psychological scars of violence on people in the Valley _


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## Omar1984

Yes we Muslims throw stones at the oppressor even if the oppressor has modern weaponry:


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## EjazR

*Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - Baby death at Bla*

_Sagar says 4 youth booked for murder
PDP seeks details on motive, background of accused
_
*Abid Bashir
Jammu, March 1:* The law and parliamentary affairs minister Ali Mohammad Sagar Monday informed Legislative Assembly that four youth allegedly involved in the death of 11-year-old baby at Chakra in Baramulla district on February 22 have been arrested and booked under murder charges.


Government had announced that culprits involved in the death of 11-day-old baby will be arrested. I am glad to announce that four persons involved in the incident have been arrested and booked under section 302 RPC, Sagar said.

Stating that the arrested persons hail from different areas of Baramulla, he identified them as Tanveer Ahmad, Bilal Ahmad, Akhtar Hussain and Muhammad Ramzan.

Tanveer had dragged infants mother out of ambulance, which had caused babys death, Sagar said.

He said 15 witnesses identified the culprits before their arrest.

The minister said police have also seized two sumo vehicles in which the accused were traveling on February 22, when the incident took place.

Sagars statement did not satisfy the opposition PDP. We are not satisfied by the government statement. We want to know what was the motive of these youth? Why did they stop the vehicle? We also want to know the background of these youth, said senior PDP leader and MLA Bandipore, Nizamudin Bhat.

Countering Bhat, the Law and parliamentary affairs minister said people of entire Baramulla district know the background of the arrested youth. Police has presented a challan against the accused under Section 302 RPC, he said.

However, the PDP legislators including party President Mahbooba Mufti demanded that background of the arrested youth be made public.

Speaker intervened and said, The Minister has given his statement and there is no scope for debate.

The 11-day old Irfan died on February 22 when the protestors stopped a vehicle near Chakla area in Baramulla district and pelted stones on it. Irfans parents argued with the youth and a scuffle took place. During the scuffle, Irfan fell down from the lap of his mother and was injured. The infant later succumbed to injuries in the hospital.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*&#1575;&#1606;&#1617;&#1575; &#1604;&#1604;&#1729; &#1608; &#1575;&#1606;&#1617;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1740;&#1729; &#1585;&#1575;&#1580;&#1593;&#1608;&#1606;*


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## Hulk

Mindless violence does not lead anywhere, shame on people who pelt stone at others for no reason.


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## Spitfighter

50 stone throwers arrested!!!

I'm sure they'll reconsider their actions after spending sometime with the INA.


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## Mallu

Believe me guys Tensions in Kashmir is lowest and i am sure it will return to normalcy. 
We will win hearts of Kashmir Muslims


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Tuesdy, 02 March 2010
Rabi-ul-Awwal 15, 1431* 
*Unprovoked Indian Firing Injures two Kashmiri Children​*


> ISLAMABAD: Two children were wounded in unprovoked firing by Indian forces across the de facto border dividing the disputed Kashmir region, Pakistani officials said on Tuesday.
> 
> An Indian army spokesman said soldiers had retaliated after Pakistani troops opened fire.
> 
> Pakistan said the shooting, in the Battal sector of Pakistan-controlled Kashmir, known as Azad Kashmir, took place on Monday night, just days after the nuclear-armed neighbours held their first official talks in more than year.
> 
> An innocent boy and a girl were seriously injured due to unprovoked firing by Indian troops across the Line of Control, a military official said, referring to the line dividing the Pakistani and Indian portions of the Himalayan region.
> 
> Pakistani troops responded effectively, he said without giving details.
> 
> Indian army spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Biplab Nath said Pakistani troops also fired several rocket-propelled grenades.
> 
> We retaliated after 30 minutes, aiming only on Pakistani military posts, Nath said. Both sides routinely blame the other for provoking fire in such incidents.
> 
> There has been a spate of clashes in the past few months along the Line of Control and on the border to the south but they are not expected to spark a broader conflict.
> 
> Pakistan and India have fought two of their three wars over Muslim-majority Kashmir, which is divided between the South Asian neighbours who both claim it in full.
> 
> India accuses Pakistan of backing separatist militants fighting its forces in its part of Kashmir. Pakistan says it only offers Kashmiri separatists political backing.
> 
> Top diplomats from the two countries met in New Delhi last week in their first officials talks since the Mumbai attack.
> 
> They agreed to keep in touch but India declined to resume a broad series of talks on outstanding disputes known as the composite dialogue.



DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Unprovoked Indian firing injures two Kashmiri children


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## Spitfighter

By Syed Shoaib Hasan
BBC News, Islamabad

Pro-Pakistan Kashmiri militants
India accuses Pakistan of fomenting militancy in Kashmir

Pakistan has long been accused of supporting militant groups operating in Kashmir.

As a fledgling peace process between India and Pakistan developed in the years since the 11 September 2001 attacks in the US, it was widely believed that Islamabad's support for militancy had declined.

This has changed once again. Since 2009 militant activity has been on the increase in the Kashmir region.

After the deadly Mumbai (Bombay) attacks of 2008 India called off peace talks. Dialogue resumed in February 2010 but the issue of militancy allegedly supported by Pakistan remains high on India's agenda.

Pakistan's government denies any knowledge of Kashmir militant groups increasing their activities.

First rebellions

Initially militant groups in Kashmir appeared to be operating on their own - but there is evidence to suggest that they are once again under the protection of Pakistan's intelligence establishment.

Training camps are once again being set up on the Pakistani-controlled side of Kashmir.


WHO ARE THE MILITANTS?
Hizbul Mujahideen
Lashkar-e-Taiba
Harkatul Mujahideen
Jaish-e-Mohammad

Banned Pakistani groups 'expand'

Recruitment is also up in Pakistan's Punjab province, which has provided most of the shaheeds or "martyrs" for the militants.

In fact, so emboldened have the militants become, that one militant alliance, the United Jihad Council (UJC), held a public meeting for militants in Muzaffarabad in mid-January 2010.

The meeting was chaired by, among others, former ISI chief Lt Gen Hamid Gul.

It called for a reinvigorated jihad (holy war) until Kashmir was free of "Indian occupation".

This call has a long history across the disputed territory of Kashmir.

What started as essentially an indigenous popular uprising against Indian rule has undergone many changes.

The insurgency began in the 1980s as a peaceful rebellion but soon became an armed uprising. The first armed rebel group was the indigenous Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) but Islamic militant groups proliferated rapidly.

These groups were part of the legacy of the Soviet Afghan war which had recently ended and spawned "holy warriors", fired with religious zeal, who sought to carry jihad across the world.

Until the cataclysmic events of 11 September 2001, these groups effectively ran the insurgency.

Based in Pakistani-administered Kashmir, they found financing and recruited for their activities within Pakistan.

Indian police officials stand behind barbed wire blocking a road during a gunbattle in Srinagar - January 2010
Kashmir is at the heart of decades of hostility between India and Pakistan

In this regard, they are said to have been aided and guided by Pakistan's intelligence agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI).

But this changed after 11 September when the international crackdown on "jihad" finally caught up with the Kashmir militants.

In 2002, Pakistan's then President Pervez Musharraf banned the most violent of the militant groups.

He also ordered a reduction in Pakistan's open support for Kashmir militancy.

This included restructuring the ISI's Kashmir wing and limiting the movement of militants across the border with India.

Even the Indian authorities agreed that infiltration by militants had become minimal - and had almost completely stopped by 2005.

This policy remained in force until 2006-2007, when President Musharraf's career began to unravel.

Attacks in India

Since then, for reasons still not clear, Pakistan's intelligence apparatus has once again allowed militants to restart the Kashmir campaign of militancy.

The essential structure of the Islamic militant groups have remained the same.

While new groups have emerged from time to time, militancy in Kashmir largely centred around three main organisations. These are the Hizbul Mujahideen (HuM), Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) and Harkatul Mujahideen (HM).

With the late addition of the Jaish-e-Mohammad (JEM), it is these four groups which continue to dominate Kashmir's militant landscape.

Not much is known about collaboration between the various militant groups, but most say they are members of the United Jihad Council (UJC).

The JEM and the LeT have achieved particular notoriety amongst the Indians.

Both are accused of carrying out audacious attacks on the Indian military in Kashmir. They are also accused of involvement in numerous other attacks on Indian territory.

The most famous of these are the attacks on the Indian parliament in Delhi in 2001 and those across Mumbai in November 2008.

The prevailing political sympathies among Kashmir militants is pro-Pakistani - with a heavy emphasis on religion.

However, this may not be entirely true for the separatist political movement represented by the All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) - as many of its constituent groups have kept their options open.

The APHC is split between a faction which supports negotiations with the Indian government and a faction which is opposed to such dialogue.

Such ideological differences can also result in friction between the factions of the separatist movement.

Eternal mistrust

Many ask why Pakistan appears to be so intent on reviving the Kashmir "jihad"?

The answer, according to analysts, lies in the eternal mistrust that has plagued the relationship between the neighbours.

Pakistan has cried itself hoarse in recent years about India's involvement in Afghanistan.

Pakistani authorities have repeatedly accused India of using its increasing influence with the US to foment insurgencies along the country's western border.

In particular, it points to India's alleged support of rebels in Balochistan province.

But these words went largely unheeded during the current Afghan war.

Now, the argument goes, elements in Pakistan feel the time is ripe to use Kashmiri jihadis as an additional bargaining chip.
*
Hawks argue the only way to get a favourable deal with India is to encourage militancy in Kashmir.

That such attacks could in theory lead to a nuclear confrontation between the two sides seems largely overlooked. * 

BBC News - Why Pakistan is 'boosting Kashmir militants' 


Pakistani logic never ceases to amaze me. If a tiny country like Sri Lanka did not bend to terrorists, then how can one expect a country the size of India, a nuclear power, to give into the militants demands? 

When will Pakistan learn that violence only begets violence? What will Pakistan do if say the militants shoot up/bomb the CWG in October and kill thousands? One fine day, regardless of the state of the armed forces, India will be forced to take military action that would likely result in a nuclear exchange and probably cripple both countries forever. What then? Pakistan still won't have Kashmir and will be responsible for the deaths of tens of millions.

I really don't understand this idiotic, suicidal mindset, I mean if a country is belligerent enough to cross the LoC, as Pakistan did in '99, despite the nuclear overhang, then how can any Pakistani in his or her right mind point fingers at India and our so called 'hegemonic designs'? What about Pakistan's suicidal tendencies? are there no limits to self righteousness??!

I for one believe that if the insurgency picks up again and innocent civilians are killed then India should reciprocate with some terrorism of its own, to hell with the economy, what good is an economy if the state does nothing to protect its citizens?


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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer




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## Windjammer



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## Abhiras

Zaki said:


> Kashmir banay ga Pakistan





Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Beautiful news...Applause



Haha
BJP is socend biggest party of india ....& i assure you even if all other party agree on any resolution..(Bhajapa) BJP will still oppose it.....


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## Windjammer

For those who didn't get the title,

The "K" in Pakistan stands for Kashmir.


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## Hyde

nice title windjammer

i liked it............

nice photos too


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## Kompromat

hehehe smart one.


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## third eye

Self delete.. dont want to stir a hornets nest.


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## Creder

*The city that once was...

Remembering muzaffarabad*





*
Chitta Katha Lake *

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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer

Unforgetable view of Chitta Katha lake found in Shounter Valley in Azad Kashmir... 13,200 Feet ASL


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## Windjammer




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## Windjammer

Traditional Kashmiri House in Leepa Valley


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## Peshwa

Windjammer...when did you start working on the Incredible India advertising campaign?

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## Hulk

The photos are good wana visit this place, hope it is possible some day. I request Indians to just enjoy the photo and avoid the flame that it can lead to.


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## Windjammer

Peshwa said:


> Windjammer...when did you start working on the Incredible India advertising campaign?



My dear, the term now is Panoramic Pakistan.

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## ejaz007

*Indian officer held for Kashmiri teens death *

NEW DELHI: Police in Indian occupied Kashmir arrested an army officer on Thursday, for his alleged role in the shooting of a teenager last month. Zahid Farooq, a 16-year-old Kashmiri, was shot in the chest by paramilitary forces on February 5 as he was returning home with friends from a cricket match in Srinagar. His death sparked violent protests in the volatile region. According to an official from a police special investigating team (SIT) set up to look into the case, R.K. Birdi, a commander in the paramilitary Border Security Force (BSF), surrendered at a Srinagar police station on Thursday morning. He has been formally arrested by us. He will now be questioned about his role in the firing incident, the official said, asking not to be named. afp

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## Trichy

ejaz007 said:


> *Indias BSF admits to killing Kashmiri boy*
> 
> * BSF director general says prima facie evidence points to constable
> 
> SRINAGAR: Indias border guards said on Wednesday that one of their soldiers had shot dead an innocent boy in Kashmir last week, in a rare confession by troops after anti-India protests roiled the disputed region over the death.
> 
> The admission could ease a recent spike in tensions in Kashmir, where hundreds of people have been injured in pitched street battles between government forces and rock-pelting Muslim crowds protesting the killing of the boy. Those protests were threatening to morph into huge demonstrations against Indian rule in the disputed region, and embarrass New Delhi while it tried to reach out to moderate separatists to end a two-decade-long violent insurgency.
> 
> Inquiry: We have conducted an internal inquiry and prima facie evidence points to a constable, Border Security Force Director General PPS Sidhu told a news conference.
> 
> Exemplary punishment will be given to the person so that such crimes are not repeated in the future, *Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK) Omar Abdullah said. *
> 
> In the past, government forces in Kashmir have been accused of killing civilians during protests and in staged gun battles by passing them off as separatist militants, charges security forces have mostly denied. Last year a judicial probe into the alleged rape and murder of two women, which also triggered massive protests across Kashmir, pointed to the involvement of police. But so far no police official has been identified or punished for the crime. agencies
> 
> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan



who is he?? to care about J&K???

J&K CM Mr. Omar Abdullah you mention??? ha ha ha ask him he say I'm a Indian...


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## Xtremeownage

Ina Lillahi Wa Ina Lillah.

Indian persecution of our brothers and sisters must be stopped. The 1 million+ innocent Muslims who have been brutally killed by the barbaric Indian army in Indian Occupied Kashmir will never be forgotten, Insha Allah! 

Tyranny can only go for so long!

Indian Occupied Kashmir is a part of Pakistan, which has been brutally occupied by the Indian forces. Soon Indian Occupied Kashmir will become under control of Pakistan, Insha Allah!

It is our land, our people, our brothers and sisters... We must fight to get our land back from these tyrannical forces of the Indian army and government. Insha Allah, we will do it. Our hearts and minds are with our brothers and sisters of Indian Occupied Kashmir! We will never give you up, Insha Allah!

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## Xtremeownage

Kashmir is a part of Pakistan. We currently rule over a large portion of Kashmir (Azad Kashmir), yet Indians have occupied another large part of Kashmir, a part which has suffered so much by the barbaric Indian forces. They have killed over 1 Million of our Kashmiri-Muslim brothers and sisters since their brutal occupation of our land, and Insha Allah, we will get it back! 

Soon Indian Occupied Kashmir will become under the rule of Pakistan, and our brothers and sisters will be reunited with us. Indian tyranny will fail, Insha Allah! 

It's also worth pointing out that Pakistan holds a significance of Kashmir within it's name (The "K" in Pakistan is Kashmir).

But the national anthem of India has no mention of Kashmir (even though it mentions Sindh, which is 100&#37; a part of Pakistan)!


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## Yusuf

Seriously what is the stand here on Kashmir. Its pretty dubious as on the face of it the Pak govt wants the Kashmiris to decide their fate and in the hearts as everyone knows they covet the land. So much fore support of the Kashmiris. 

Since this thread is open, i would like to state that something about atrocities in Pakistan was opened in another forum where a member from Pakistan called it propaganda and wanted me to have a look at how "civilized and mature" PDF was. Thats why i signed up today. Looks like that member has serious issues in understanding what is civilized and mature.

I dont know whats the limit here for an Indian to post before inviting a ban. So i will stop at that.


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## Spitfighter

Xtremeownage said:


> *Kashmir is a part of Pakistan.*



Lol dude. Not if we have anything to say about it, and we say nay!



> We currently rule over a large portion of Kashmir (Azad Kashmir), yet Indians have occupied another large part of Kashmir, a part which has suffered so much by the barbaric Indian forces. They have killed over *1 Million of our Kashmiri-Muslim brothers and sisters* since their brutal occupation of our land, and Insha Allah, we will get it back!



lol, lets see you back that up. 



> Soon Indian Occupied Kashmir will become under the rule of Pakistan,



How soon? I thought Pakistan was fighting for Kashmiri 'freedom', didn't think you'd want to occupy it. 



> and our brothers and sisters will be reunited with us. Indian tyranny will fail, Insha Allah!



Insha Allah Pakistan will fail as it always has.



> It's also worth pointing out that Pakistan holds a significance of Kashmir within it's name (The "K" in Pakistan is Kashmir).



So? if India changes its name to America can we lay claim to the US? 



> But the national anthem of India has no mention of Kashmir (even though it mentions Sindh, which is 100% a part of Pakistan)!



How about we exchange Sindh for Kashmir?


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## su-47

Xtremeownage said:


> Kashmir is a part of Pakistan. We currently rule over a large portion of Kashmir (Azad Kashmir), yet Indians have occupied another large part of Kashmir, a part which has suffered so much by the barbaric Indian forces. They have killed over 1 Million of our Kashmiri-Muslim brothers and sisters since their brutal occupation of our land, and Insha Allah, we will get it back!
> 
> Soon Indian Occupied Kashmir will become under the rule of Pakistan, and our brothers and sisters will be reunited with us. Indian tyranny will fail, Insha Allah!
> 
> It's also worth pointing out that Pakistan holds a significance of Kashmir within it's name (The "K" in Pakistan is Kashmir).
> 
> But the national anthem of India has no mention of Kashmir (even though it mentions Sindh, which is 100&#37; a part of Pakistan)!



National Anthem of India was written before partition. India has never laid claim on sindh after partition. As for not mentioning Kashmir, many Indian states are not mentioned. The layout of the states itself were different at that time. Listing all states would have made it a map recitation instead of national anthem! Please don't go assuming that just because those states wren't mentioned, they don't belong to India!


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## Frankenstein

Spitfighter said:


> Lol dude. Not if we have anything to say about it, and we say nay!


As if we care what you say





Spitfighter said:


> lol, lets see you back that up.


Whats so funny aughh??, lots of Kashmirs martyred every day and ur finding it funny, typical Indian 





Spitfighter said:


> How soon? I thought Pakistan was fighting for Kashmiri 'freedom', didn't think you'd want to occupy it.


As soon as India stop going to UN for help 





Spitfighter said:


> Insha Allah Pakistan will fail as it always has.


There is hell of a difference between India and Pakistan






Spitfighter said:


> So? if India changes its name to America can we lay claim to the US?


No we are talking about Kashmir right know and if you r not that illiterate then i guess u noe that Kashmir was part of Pakistan after partition in 1947





Spitfighter said:


> How about we exchange Sindh for Kashmir?


roflcopter


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## Frankenstein

Spitfighter said:


> Lol dude. Not if we have anything to say about it, and we say nay!


As if we care what you say





Spitfighter said:


> lol, lets see you back that up.


Whats so funny aughh??, lots of Kashmirs martyred every day and ur finding it funny, typical Indian 





Spitfighter said:


> How soon? I thought Pakistan was fighting for Kashmiri 'freedom', didn't think you'd want to occupy it.


As soon as India stop going to UN for help 





Spitfighter said:


> Insha Allah Pakistan will fail as it always has.


There is hell of a difference between India and Pakistan






Spitfighter said:


> So? if India changes its name to America can we lay claim to the US?


No we are talking about Kashmir right know and if you r not that illiterate then i guess u noe that Kashmir was part of Pakistan after partition in 1947




Spitfighter said:


> How about we exchange Sindh for Kashmir?


roflcopter


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## EjazR

*The Hindu : Front Page : Who fired on Qureshi, Hurriyat asked Pak Foreign Secretary*

Siddharth Varadarajan

New Delhi: The near-fatal shooting of Fazal Haq Qureshi figured prominently in the meeting here between the Hurriyat and the visiting Pakistani Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir last week with the conglomerate blaming Pakistan-based terrorists for the attack on the moderate Kashmiri separatist leader.

Though no group claimed responsibility for the December 2009 shooting outside a mosque in Srinagar, the incident was seen in the valley as a warning to the Hurriyat not to engage in dialogue with the Centre or mainstream Kashmiri parties like the National Conference and Peoples Democratic Party.

Mr. Bashir denied the involvement of the Pakistan government or its agencies in the assassination attempt but promised to convey Kashmiri perceptions about the incident back home, The Hindu has learned. The Hurriyat leaders also expressed their unhappiness with what they said were efforts by Islamabad to undermine them by promoting factionalism within the separatist movement.

This factionalism was very much on display at the Pakistan High Commission on February 24 when Mr. Bashir was forced to have three separate back-to-back meetings with the separatists  first with Syed Ali Shah Geelani; then the Hurriyat delegation led by Mirwaiz Omer Farooq, including Bilal Lone and Professor Abdul Ghani Bhat; and finally with Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front leader Yasin Malik.

The meetings provided a glimpse of the U-turn Islamabad has made in its Kashmir policy, with Mr. Bashir assuring Mr. Geelani that the out-of-the-box ideas on a future settlement pursued by General Pervez Musharraf through back-channel talks with India had all been jettisoned in favour of Pakistans traditional stand.

Mr. Bashir invited the separatist leaders to travel to Islamabad for consultations with the Foreign Office in Islamabad in the next few weeks. Pakistan is understood to be keen to hold this interaction in the context of the strategic review of foreign policy being conducted by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in March.

Pakistans insistence on inviting civil society separatists like the Jammu Kashmir Bar Association and Asiya Andrabi of Dukhtaran-e-Millat and marginal separatist politicians like Shabbir Shah to its Foreign Office consultation has also become a source of friction with the Hurriyat.

Though the Mirwaiz is believed to have agreed to visit Islamabad, he is under pressure from others within the group not to attend.


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## EjazR

*How Communal Division of J&K State was Averted - Mainstream Weekly*
by Balraj Puri
Encouraged by the announcement of the formation of a separate Telangana State and provoked by the report of the Justice Sagheer Ahma headed Fifth Working Group on Centre-State Relations in J&K, appointed by the Prime Minister, the movement for separation of Ladakh from Kashmir region has gained fresh momentum and the issue of a separate Jammu State is again being debated.

A former member of the Jammu State Morcha recalls how the movement for a separate Jammu State was sabotaged by the BJP and then by the RSS. He recalls that the RSS and other leaders of its Parivar, who met at Kurukhsetra, passed a resolution in support of a separate Jammu State in 2000. The BJP was hesitant to come out openly in its support. The RSS floated the Jammu State Morcha. It entered into a seat-sharing arrangement with the BJP to fight the Assembly elections in 2002 from all the 37 seats in the Jammu region. But in practice the JSM flouted the agreement in some constituencies allotted to the BJP splitting each others votes. Both won just one seat each. Later the RSS wound up the JSM, though it was revived by another group led by Prof Virinder Gupta.

The story of the fate of the movement for a separate Jammu State is corroborated by Sartaj Aziz, the Foreign Minister of Pakistan in the government of General Pervez Musharraf, in his recently released book. He claimed that an agreement between his country and India had been reached on the J&K State on the basis of its division, so that the Hindu majority part of Jammu and the Buddhist majority part of Ladakh remained with India and the Pak administered part of the State with Pakistan as the views of these people were known. The area of dispute was confined to the Kashmir Valley, thus cutting the problem of Kashmir to size. He quotes Farooq Kathwari formula on the subject.

Kathwari is the richest Kashmiri in the world and wields considerable influence in the Valley. He had visited the State in 1999 and spent a day or so in Jammu. When I met him I asked who else he was meeting in Jammu. He replied that none excepting me and the then Chief Minister, Farooq Abdullah, and he wanted me not to disclose to anybody that he was in town. While I rejected the division of the State on religious lines, the reaction of Farooq Abdullah was not immediately known. Earlier he had met Indian and Pakistan leaders in power and apparently got their consent to his proposal. Before that he had invited two representatives of the governments of India and Pakistan to New York where he lives to attend a meeting of the Kashmir Study Group headed by him and this group approved his formula.


Alarmed by these developments I organised a meeting of ex-Prime Ministers of India including Inder Gujral, V.P. Singh and Chandar Shekhar and independent public men and leading academicians in Delhi. They unanimously resolved that a religious division of the State was dangerous.

I also had a series of meetings with L.K. Advani, the then Deputy Prime Minister and Home Minister of India. I warned him about the implications of communalisation of the entire State which would also undermine the secular basis of the entire country. I asked him some searching questions. Did the two reprentatives of India attend the Kathwari meeting with the consent of Government of India? Did the government object to the agreement they had with the Kathwari group? Did Farooq Abdullah, whose government had proposed administrative division of Jammu on religious lines, do it without approved of the GoI? Wasnt the Home Ministry financing the Trilateral Front to divide the State in three parts on religious lines? And so on. Advani asked me what was the alternative to redress the grievances of Jammu and Ladakh against what he called Kashmiri domination ever since independence. I suggested my formula, much maligned and conclemned by his party, for regional autonomy which could ensure harmony between the three regions of the State. He seemed to agree.

I also met Syed Ali Shah Geelani and asked him whether he had thought over the consequences of what I called the Advani-Geelani formula on the religious division of the State and if these would be different from such a division in 1947 and when Mahatma Gandhi and Qaid-e-Azam could not prevent it then, he and I were much smaller persons. He, too, seemed to be convinced by my argument.

On the eve of the 2002 Assembly elections in the State, the then BJP President, J. Krishnamurty, was asked by mediapersons when he visited Jammu as to the official stand of his party for the separate Jammu State. He replied that the party had not taken any final decision on the subject but the local unit had a right to give expression to local sentiments.

I again visited Delhi and sought an appointment with Advani. I was told that he was too busy in arrangements about General Musharrafs visit the next day and that I should wait till his departure when he would have more time. I insisted that I should meet him before Musharrafs visit as it was relevant to the Indo-Pak talks. He agreed to meet me. I told him that Krishnamurtys statement was welcomed in Pakistan and the extremist faction of the separatist leaders in Kashmir. Why had his party become so generous to Pakistan while I was always accused to be pro-Pakistan by it? He said that while he was convinced that the remedy of the communal division of the State was worse than the disease, the RSS was not. It confirms the recent disclosure of the differences between the RSS and the BJP by a former member of the Jammu State Morcha. Meanwhile I contacted other members of the Kashmir Study Group of Kathwari. Many of them agreed with me. Kathwari, too, modified his formula and in a recent telephonic talk with me agreed that my formula of regional autonomy was the first step towards resolution of the complex Kashmir problem.

The author is the Director, Institute of Jammu and Kashmir Affairs, Jammu.


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## EjazR

^^^This shows what the BJP-led NDA were working towards for a settlement in Kashmir. That is the division of J&K and separation of the muslim majority valley from it.
However, thankfully because of the UPA coming to power in 2004, a new formula has to be brought about and the communal division was put away.
Unfortunately, Musharraf had too many problems before the new solution could be implemented.


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## Windjammer

Kashmiri protesters carry the Pakistani Crescent and Star flags. India Occupied Kashmir


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## Windjammer




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## Abhiras

According to Human Rights Commission of Pakistan Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence(ISI) operates in Pakistan administered Kashmir and is involved in extensive surveillance, arbitrary arrests, torture and murder. Generally this is done with impunity and perpetrators go unpunished.


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## Abhiras

According to Indus water treaty between India & Pakistan India has an exclusive right to use of all of the waters of the Eastern Rivers and their tributaries {{the Sutlej, the Beas and the Ravi}}
& pakistan has the right on the Western Rivers .....

If Kashmir become independent ,,India will control the 3 rivers as signed by the treaty(which flows through Indian Punjab)....
& Independent Kashmir ,,(which is not signatory to the treaty) will use the water of western rivers{which are assigned to Pakistan by treaty} which flows from Kashmir....

so do not you think that this will be more harming for Pakistan & Pakistani economy where about 77% of people depends upon Indus & tributary water...


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## Justin Joseph

*Water Pakistan's diversionary tactic?
*


TNN, Feb 23, 2010, 11.15pm IST

NEW DELHI: *Pakistan's zeal to insert the "water issue" in the bilateral talks is being seen here as an attempt to divert popular attention back home from the mismanagement of its water resources and the growing discontent in Sindh and Balochistan over the denial of their share of Indus waters.*

*Analysts here have been struck by the way Pakistan's political class and the jehadi establishment have teamed up to unleash a propaganda offensive against India's "machinations" to rob the neighbouring country of its legitimate share of Indus waters.*

*With leading jehadis Hafiz Saeed and his deputy Abdur Rahman Makki of Lashkar warning of serious repercussions, holding out the grim warning of "Muslims dying of thirst would drink blood of India",* the official establishment has scarcely been subtle in upping the ante on the emotionally fraught issue where agriculture remains the mainstay of economy. A full spectrum of devices -- from statements from the PM downwards to official briefings and remarks of official spokespersons endorsing fears of theft of Pakistan's water by India -- have been used to elevate water to the level of "core issue" -- a description so far reserved for the dispute ove J&K.

The government-jehadi concert has raised suspicions here whether Pakistan is raising a bogey to thwart the construction of storage dams on western rivers at Bursar (J&K) and Gyspa (HP) by India in keeping with its entitlement under Indus Water Treaty. It is also suspected that the larger gameplan could be to seek arbitration outside the Permanent Indus Water Commission the two countries have.

The grievance narrative, however, suffers from serious infirmities. Analysts point out that Indus Water Treaty of 1960 -- an agreement which has so far endured despite conflicts -- allocated the three eastern rivers (Sutlej, Beas and Ravi) of Indus system to India, whereas the western rivers (Indus, Jhelum and Chenab) were assigned to Pakistan. Importantly, western rivers are far more bountiful than eastern rivers -- mean flow of 136 million acre feet (MAF) against a mere 33 MAF in that order.

India, however, did not let the huge gap come in the way as it decided to pay Pakistan a compensation of 62 million pound sterling for construction of `replacement' canals as compensation for waters of eastern rivers. While this was a rare instance of upper riparian state (India) giving disproportionately, India also accepted severe restrictions on the use of waters of western rivers.

*As it escalates its campaign against India over water issue, Islamabad, those familiar with the matter said, was concealing from its people such crucial facts that India is yet to avail of its entitlement to build storage for up to 3.6 MAF on western rivers. Or, for that matter, that of the crop area of 13,43,477 acres that India is allowed to irrigate using waters of western rivers, India has so far been irrigating only 7,92,426 acres.*

*At the root of the `misinformation campaign' lies a complex web of issues, including the "water greed" of northern part of Pakistan's Punjab which has seen not just Sindh and Balochistan but also, increasingly, southern Punjab in that country going without their legitimate share of Indus waters.*

*The mismanagement by Pakistan coupled with the fact that Indus waters carry more silt -- giving rise to real and ever-worsening problem of siltation -- has resulted in Indus waters not reaching the whole length of the canals in Pakistan. To compound matters, deforestation and rising temperatures mean a huge depletion in flow of water to Pakistan.*

Islamabad recognises the problem is going to deepen with analysts projecting a water deficit of 30&#37; by 2025. Like in the case of many of its other problems, it has decided to deflect the attention towards India. 

Water Pakistan's diversionary tactic? - India - The Times of India


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## Spring Onion

*And thats why Pakistan has also supported Independent Kashmir too.*


And by your logic then why dont India harm Pakistan by leaving Kashmir to be an independent country

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## Justin Joseph

*So above ToI news clearly proves that the India is not EVEN using its allotted share of water as per to Indus treaty.*

*And India's share of water is freely flowing into Pakistan.

Still Govt. in pakistan blaming India for lack of water.*

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-diversionary-tactic-/articleshow/5609099.cms


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## Justin Joseph

Jana said:


> *And thats why Pakistan has also supported Independent Kashmir too.*
> 
> 
> And by your logic then why dont India harm Pakistan by leaving Kashmir to be an independent country




What type of logic is that?

I have reading ur many post u even don't read half of the post and jump to reply.

By ur logic pakistan can use nuke weapons to harm India why pakistan is not using them to harm India.

Go and read ToI's news link has already given, India is not using even allotted share of water by Indus treaty still u GoP blame India about water.


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## Spring Onion

Justin Joseph said:


> *So above ToI news clearly proves that the India is not EVEN using its allotted share of water as per to Indus treaty.*
> 
> *And India's share of water is freely flowing into Pakistan.
> 
> Still Govt. in pakistan blaming India for lack of water.*
> 
> Water Pakistan's diversionary tactic? - India - The Times of India



Aray bhai sahab indeed Indian Orange media will always support and defend Indian stealing of Pakistani waters.

Go back to last year and check how how Indians stolen our water.


Independent Kashmir is not at all a threat to Pakistan BUT it will indeed halt Indian stealing of Pakistani water.

And independent Kashmir can be friendly to Pakistan unlike enemy India.


So get over this false propaganda Indians have came up with


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## Abhiras

Jana said:


> And by your logic then why dont India harm Pakistan by leaving Kashmir to be an independent country



India wants friendship with pakistan


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## Spring Onion

Justin Joseph said:


> What type of logic is that?



Read my post again. 

I said Pakistan had even supported the idea of Independent Kashmir. So if we buy Indian rubish that an independent Kashmir is harmful to Pakistan then why we would have supported Independent Kashmir.

Or if your Indian logic is true then you should appreciate Pakistan that despite an appearent harm Pakistan even supported an Independent Kashmir 




> I have seeing ur many post u even don't read half of the post and jump to reply.
> 
> *By ur logic pakistan can use nuke weapons to harm India why pakistan is not using them to harm India.*



When was the last time i presented any logic which says Pakistan should use nuke wepaons to harm India and why Pakistan is not using it ???



I think your mind is divided at many places.



> Go and read ToI's news link has already given, India is not using even allotted share of water by Indus treaty still u GoP blame India about water.



NO you go and check the last incident when India was filling Baglihar dam despite the period which is allowed to India for filling, was expired much before.


----------



## Spring Onion

Abhiras said:


> India wants friendship with pakistan



Baghal main churi moan pe ram ram

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## Abhiras

Jana said:


> Baghal main churi moan pe ram ram



Most of the Indian wants friendship with pakistan(Pakistans players saying that they feel like home in delhi after watching so much support even for them)
BUT
even more & infact all indian (except for few in kashmir) wants kashmir to be part of india...


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## Hyde

no no bad idea Abhiras........... if Kashmir is an independant country it will never stop water for Pakistan due to various reasons...... first is they are Muslims, second is they have a sympthy for Pakistan and large group of Kashmiris want to emerge with Pakistan anyway, third is Pakistan is much stronger than Kashmir fourth is Kashmiris will have to use Pakistani ports for their trades fifth is both of them will be sharing common interests

i can count 50 reasons nothing is going to happen like you are thinking so you better keep dreaming


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## Justin Joseph

Jana said:


> Aray bhai sahab indeed Indian Orange media will always support and defend Indian stealing of Pakistani waters.
> 
> Go back to last year and check how how Indians stolen our water.
> 
> 
> Independent Kashmir is not at all a threat to Pakistan BUT it will indeed halt Indian stealing of Pakistani water.
> 
> And independent Kashmir can be friendly to Pakistan unlike enemy India.
> 
> 
> So get over this false propaganda Indians have came up with



You are still saying this even when India is not taking its rightful indus water.

Pakistan's problem is mismanagement.

And u have got a very good excuse which will calm ur people and suits ur intentions and the excuse "This is because of India".

Leave water Pakistan also have electricity problem does India is responsible for that also?

Realize the truth problem is mismanagement i was reading some thread about "Huge marble deposits" "World's biggest reserves of coal" why they have not utilized, does India have to do with also?

pakstan will not gain anything from blaming others for all of its sufferings.

only u can change ur destiny no one can.


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## Abhiras

Zaki said:


> no no bad idea Abhiras........... if Kashmir is an independant country it will never stop water for Pakistan due to various reasons...... first is they are Muslims, second is they have a sympthy for Pakistan and large group of Kashmiris want to emerge with Pakistan anyway, third is Pakistan is much stronger than Kashmir fourth is Kashmiris will have to use Pakistani ports for their trades fifth is both of them will be sharing common interests



Many Kashmirs separatist are against india because india stop them from using the kashmir's river by the Indus treaty...
They want to use INDUS want which india do not allow they to do...

They would give you water ,, but after using for themselves.....after storing for themselves....

so there will be MORE SHORTAGE in Pakistan


----------



## Justin Joseph

Jana said:


> Read my post again.
> 
> I said Pakistan had even supported the idea of Independent Kashmir. So if we buy Indian rubish that an independent Kashmir is harmful to Pakistan then why we would have supported Independent Kashmir.
> 
> Or if your Indian logic is true then you should appreciate Pakistan that despite an appearent harm Pakistan even supported an Independent Kashmir
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When was the last time i presented any logic which says Pakistan should use nuke wepaons to harm India and why Pakistan is not using it ???
> 
> 
> 
> I think your mind is divided at many places.
> 
> 
> 
> NO you go and check the last incident when India was filling Baglihar dam despite the period which is allowed to India for filling, was expired much before.



I'm not saying independent Kashmir ur mixing abhiras's post with my.

Where i say we want to harm pakistan it's ur misconception and poor reading?

I'm not saying u r saying pak will harm India with nuke but u have said that a independent Kashmir will harm pakisatn so let it be independent to harm pakistan. These are not my words but urs.

Then i replied by using same logic that as u want to harm India so nuke us, this is the statement made by me using ur logic of harm.

Where do u see my mind divided?

But ur mind seems to be divided for sure to raise the number of post without reading for some reason.


----------



## ek_indian

Jana said:


> Aray bhai sahab indeed Indian Orange media will always support and defend Indian stealing of Pakistani waters.



We have on record from your water auhtority that India has not violated IWT so no water stealing.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Indus water treaty is intact,India-Pakistan commissioners - Breaking News, Pakistan News, National, World, Business, Cricket, Education, Health, Stock Exchange | OnePakistan.com



Jana said:


> Go back to last year and check how how Indians stolen our water.



Link please.

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## Justin Joseph

Abhiras said:


> Many Kashmirs separatist are against india because india stop them from using the kashmir's river by the Indus treaty...
> They want to use INDUS want which india do not allow they to do...
> 
> They would give you water ,, but after using for themselves.....after storing for themselves....
> 
> so there will be MORE SHORTAGE in Pakistan



Yaar, why r u talking like kid?

where is the question of Indipendent Kashmir?

And there are no separatist but tiny minority of foreign funded radical puppets and few number of their radical fanatic paid supporters.

More than 90&#37; of Kashmiris are with India and few people wants independent and nobody want to be with pakistan.


----------



## Hyde

Abhiras said:


> Many Kashmirs separatist are against india because india stop them from using the kashmir's river by the Indus treaty...
> They want to use INDUS want which india do not allow they to do...
> 
> They would give you water ,, but after using for themselves.....after storing for themselves....
> 
> so there will be MORE SHORTAGE in Pakistan



oh well if you ever visit Pakistan you will find there are more Kashmiris living in Punjab than the whole Kashmir  if Kashmir is ever an independant state or joins Pakistan these small problems can be sorted out in no time. If Kashmir wants to use our ports or wants cheaper food from Pakistan they will have to be agreed to give us our share of Water and if Kashmir is joined with Pakistan you can expect the Punjabi Kashmiris and Kashmiris being mixed up in such a way that these questions will never arise

Last post here


----------



## Abhiras

Justin Joseph said:


> Yaar, why r u talking like kid?
> 
> where is the question of Indipendent Kashmir?
> 
> And there are no separatist but tiny minority of foreign funded radical puppets and few number of their radical fanatic paid supporters.
> 
> More than 90% of Kashmiris are with India and few people wants independent and nobody want to be with pakistan.



i myself visited J&K many times & i know people r with india..

But why not influence pakistani friend that kashmir as the part of india is good for them....


----------



## Abhiras

Zaki said:


> oh well if you ever visit Pakistan you will find there are more Kashmiris living in Punjab than the whole Kashmir  if Kashmir is ever an independant state or joins Pakistan these small problems can be sorted out in no time. If Kashmir wants to use our ports or wants cheaper food from Pakistan they will have to be agreed to give us our share of Water and if Kashmir is joined with Pakistan you can expect the Punjabi Kashmiris and Kashmiris being mixed up in such a way that these questions will never arise
> 
> Last post here



there are more Kashmiris in india & in pakistan & i am talking about indian kashmiris


----------



## Hyde

Justin Joseph said:


> Yaar, why r u talking like kid?
> 
> where is the question of Indipendent Kashmir?
> 
> And there are no separatist but tiny minority of foreign funded radical puppets and few number of their radical fanatic paid supporters.
> 
> More than 90% of Kashmiris are with India and few people wants independent and nobody want to be with pakistan.



hahaha you are funny my friend

Please visit this Defence.pk thread and you will your own indian members too accepting that there are Kashmiris in India who wants to become a part of Pakistan

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/20220-future-kashmir-seven-possible-solutions-58.html

If all 58 pages are too much for you then start reading from page 53

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/20220-future-kashmir-seven-possible-solutions-53.html


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## Windjammer

Washington, D.C. February 11, 2010. The Board of Directors of the KAC in its 4-days meeting agreed to the following 12-points Policy Statement.
And here is one of them.

7. The Board decided to continue to draw the attention of the international community toward the gross human rights atrocities committed by 700,000 Indian military and paramilitary forces in Kashmir. These atrocities including the discovery of more than 3,000 mass graves have been documented by international human rights organizations; like Amnesty International, Human rights Watch, International Educational Development, International Tribunal on Kashmir and many others;


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## Abhiras

Zaki said:


> hahaha you are funny my friend
> 
> Please visit this Defence.pk thread and you will your own indian members too accepting that there are Kashmiris in India who wants to become a part of Pakistan



why more then 60% people in J&K vote for choosing PM of india
Even neutral observers and journalists, who had predicted a lacklustre election process after the summer agitation against India, are surprised by the voters enthusiasm,

"""Heavy poll turnout pushes Kashmir separatists into a corner """
Heavy poll turnout pushes Kashmir separatists into a corner (News Analysis)


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## Spring Onion

Justin Joseph said:


> *More than 90&#37; of Kashmiris are with India and few people wants independent and nobody want to be with pakistan.[/*




*Oh if you are so sure then why dont you hold a referendum if you think 90% Kashmiris are with India then why India is so afraid.

if 90% are with India then why India need to keep a killer force of thousands of people in Held Kashmir??*


I will come back to your water issue later.

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## Abhiras

Jana said:


> *Oh if you are so sure then why dont you hold a referendum if you think 90% Kashmiris are with India then why India is so afraid.
> 
> if 90% are with India then why India need to keep a killer force of thousands of people in Held Kashmir??*
> 
> 
> I will come back to your water issue later.



*constitution of India donot allow to conduct a referendum...

it will act as a bad example & other state in future will also ask for same referendum.*


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## pak-yes

Jana said:


> *Oh if you are so sure then why dont you hold a referendum if you think 90% Kashmiris are with India then why India is so afraid.
> 
> if 90% are with India then why India need to keep a killer force of thousands of people in Held Kashmir??*
> 
> 
> I will come back to your water issue later.



Bull's eye Jana.Indians can't answer this question no matter how hard they try.lol


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## Spring Onion

Abhiras said:


> *constitution of India donot allow to conduct a referendum...
> 
> it will act as a bad example & other state in future will also ask for same referendum.*



 Held Kashmir is an occupied territory NOT Indian territory so howcome Constitution of India applies to the country which doesnt belong to India neither part of India.


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## Abhiras

Jana said:


> Held Kashmir is an occupied territory NOT Indian territory so howcome Constitution of India applies to the country which doesnt belong to India neither part of India.



Jammu & Kashmir is the integral part of india & Article 370 of the Constitution of India deals with the law of Jammu & Kashmir ...


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## Spring Onion

Abhiras said:


> Jammu & Kashmir is the integral part of india & Article 370 of the Constitution of India deals with the law of Jammu & Kashmir ...



 When Kashmir is NOT part of India how can INDIAN constitution applies to a disputed territory which is not part of India.


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## third eye

Jana said:


> When Kashmir is NOT part of India how can INDIAN constitution applies to a disputed territory which is not part of India.



.. but thats how it has been since 47, and so shall it remain.


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## Abhiras

Jana said:


> When Kashmir is NOT part of India how can INDIAN constitution applies to a disputed territory which is not part of India.



It is the part of india....People of Kashmir even send their representatives to the Parliament of India(like rest of state)...which choose Prime Minister among themselves

Believe it or not,,article 370 of Indian constitution is being followed all over Indian state of Jammu & Kashmir


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## IMADreamer

Jana said:


> *Aray bhai sahab indeed Indian Orange media will always support and defend Indian stealing of Pakistani waters.
> 
> Go back to last year and check how how Indians stolen our water.*
> 
> So get over this false propaganda Indians have came up with



Aap roz itna jhoot bolti ho batao tab bhi manne ko taiyaar nahi hoti ho kisi bhi baat ko ?? either you are useing this defence.pk just for fun or something is wrong with your mind

now listen this news from ur green media not our orange yellow media.

and listen what your goverment athority is saying who has more knowledge of IWT than you or me.


See your official is also showing some documents to your media just to back his claim.







oppps i forget this will again just contradict your propaganga and will brust your fun ballon so may be you potray this clip in some other colour..

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## IMADreamer

Zaki said:


> *no no bad idea Abhiras........... if Kashmir is an independant country it will never stop water for Pakistan due to various reasons...... first is they are Muslims, second is they have a sympthy for Pakistan and large group of Kashmiris want to emerge with Pakistan anyway, third is Pakistan is much stronger than Kashmir fourth is Kashmiris will have to use Pakistani ports for their trades fifth is both of them will be sharing common interests
> 
> i can count 50 reasons nothing is going to happen like you are thinking so you better keep dreaming*



Listen what your senior promint famous news anchor najam sethi is saying in this progam.

Siasat.pk &bull; View topic - Tonight With Najam Sethi ? 1st March 2010

he is saying.

"Pahle to sirf 2 log the IWT me pahle ab to IOK ke log kahne lage hian india se ki aap hamara pani kyo de rahe ho pakistaan ko ye to hamara pani hian kal ko azad kashmir ke log bhi yahi kahana shuru kar sakte hian ." so we need to solve our problem with india.

so it's just not a individual india thinking.


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## third eye

Could not read the names in Urdu, who was the gent at 2.50 ?

How old is this clip ?


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## IMADreamer

third eye said:


> Could not read the names in Urdu, who was the gent at 2.50 ?
> 
> How old is this clip ?



his name is a "jamat ali shah" the commissioner of "sindh tash muayda"
sorry don't know the meaning of "muayda" i think it means agreement and this clip is not very old.i think it will be few days old.


> was the gent at 2.50 ?


sorry i can't read urdu too


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## Justin Joseph

Jana said:


> *Oh if you are so sure then why dont you hold a referendum if you think 90% Kashmiris are with India then why India is so afraid.
> 
> if 90% are with India then why India need to keep a killer force of thousands of people in Held Kashmir??*
> 
> 
> I will come back to your water issue later.




There is no killer force, but security forces if u call them killer forces than there are all over the world including in ur country.

Also, when u calls for referendum why forgot there are pakistani Oc@upied and chinese oc@upied kashmir also exist what about that.

Why one has to held a referendum and who r u to suggest us to have one.

Suppose someone say u have referendum in sindh or baluchistan will u agree to it. No because its ur territory and people are ur people if there are any grievances u have to take care of that no one from foreign country can call for it.

Same is with the Kashmir.


----------



## Windjammer

Troops atrocities against demonstrators in IHK castigated

Srinagar, February 23 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, the Senior Vice Chairman of Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front-R, Javed Ahmad Mir has flayed the use of brute force by Indian troops on peaceful demonstrators in Baramulla, Bomai, Kulgam and Srinagar.

Javed Ahmad Mir in a statement issued in Srinagar said that Indian police were raiding the houses of innocent Kashmiri people and arresting the youth under draconian Public Safety Act. He said that such tactics of the occupation authorities couldnt prevent the people of Kashmir from their just struggle for right to self-determination and the liberation movement would be taken to its logical conclusion at all costs.

The JKLF-R leader said that the occupation authorities would not be able to suppress the indigenous struggle of Kashmiri people as they had rendered unprecedented sacrifices for the Kashmir cause and they would continue their struggle till its complete success. He said that the policeman involved in the killing of Wamiq Farooq couldnt be saved by registering a false murder attempt case on the deceased, adding that every Kashmiri knew that police targeted Wamiq.

He also condemned the torturing of a photojournalist, Imran Ali and other newsmen by Indian police during a peaceful protest demonstration in Srinagar. A JKLF delegation, led by Shafat Jan Shangloo enquired about the health of injured photojournalist, Imran Ali. 

Troops? atrocities against demonstrators in IHK castigated | Kashmir Media Service


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## gubbi

Windjammer said:


> Kashmiri protesters carry the Pakistani Crescent and Star flags. India Occupied Kashmir



I dont see any Pakistani Crescent and Star in those flags. Can you show me where exactly?

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## gubbi

Frankenstein said:


> _There is hell of a difference between India and Pakistan_



Quoted for honest truth!!!


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## Hulk

gubbi said:


> I dont see any Pakistani Crescent and Star in those flags. Can you show me where exactly?



and where is blue color in Pakistani flag?


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## AVADI

Some people like to dream on.Come to reality there is not going to be any change in the map of both India and Pakistan for some time and if people are thinking there is a military solution for kashmir they are living in fools land.


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## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> For those who didn't get the title,
> 
> The "K" in Pakistan stands for Kashmir.



Then sooner or later you will have to change the name of your country....

I didnt realize the name Pakistan was an acronym. Always thought it stood for land of Pak (pure)..

Can you also list what the other letters stand for..


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## Windjammer

Seems we have a vision problem amongst some members or is it simply self denial. Now can you see the Pakistani flag clearly. ??













Kashmiris hold Pakistans national flag and light firecrackers to celebrate the anniversary of Pakistans independence, in Srinagar August 14, 2009.


http://pakistankakhudahafiz.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/42-23131582.jpg?w=450&h=300

Kashmiri Muslims burn an Indian national flag to mark Pakistans Independence Day in Srinagar on 14 August 2009


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## karan.1970

Spitfighter said:


> So? if India changes its name to America can we lay claim to the US?



Hey we already have an I, N, D, I and an A

So without changing our name, we can have claims to 

Iran
Netherlands
Denmark
Indonesia
and 
America..

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## karan.1970

for my pakistani friends.. either do something about your rants here or avoid.. Lets say we do all that you claim that we do in Kashmir and all Kashimiris are dying to join Pakistan.. But we wont let them.. so go figure what are you going to do...


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## jinxeD_girl

karan.1970 said:


> Then sooner or later you will have to change the name of your country....
> 
> I didnt realize the name Pakistan was an acronym. Always thought it stood for land of Pak (pure)..
> 
> Can you also list what the other letters stand for..



P = Punjab 
A = Afghania (Pashtuns)
K = Kashmir
I= Immigrants
S = Sindh
TAN = BalouchisTAN

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## jinxeD_girl

karan.1970 said:


> Hey we already have an I, N, D, I and an A
> 
> So without changing our name, we can have claims to
> 
> Iran
> Netherlands
> Denmark
> Indonesia
> and
> America..



Forget about Iran, Netherlands etc... You guyz can't even hold those lands which are part of your National Anthem...

Thou art the ruler of the minds of all people,
Dispenser of India's destiny.
Thy name rouses the hearts of *Punjab*, *Sind,*
Gujarat and Maratha,
Of the Dravida and Orissa and Bengal;
It echoes in the hills of the Vindhyas and Himalayas,
mingles in the music of Jamuna and Ganges and is
chanted by the waves of the Indian Sea.
They pray for thy blessings and sing thy praise.
The saving of all people waits in thy hand,
Thou dispenser of India's destiny.
Victory, victory, victory to thee.

Sindh is part of Pakistan now...  Also I am sure the name "India" doesn't rouses the heart of 70&#37; Pakistani Punjabis on our side either... 
*
Your National Anthem is outdated, it is time to CHANGE IT*

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## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> Hey we already have an I, N, D, I and an A
> 
> So without changing our name, we can have claims to
> 
> Iran
> Netherlands
> Denmark
> Indonesia
> and
> America..


India, Bharat or Hindustan.................
Which one do you belong to.???


----------



## gubbi

Windjammer said:


> Seems we have a vision problem amongst some members or is it simply self denial. Now can you see the Pakistani flag clearly. ??


I was talking about the pic YOU posted. Is there a Pakistani flag in that pic?



> Kashmiris hold Pakistan&#8217;s national flag and light firecrackers to celebrate the anniversary of Pakistan&#8217;s independence, in Srinagar August 14, 2009.
> http://pakistankakhudahafiz.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/42-23131582.jpg?w=450&h=300
> 
> Kashmiri Muslims burn an Indian national flag to mark Pakistan&#8217;s Independence Day in Srinagar on 14 August 2009



And we are to believe a blog to be a reliable source? Those pics could have been from a rally in Karachi or even Quetta for that matter! Geez give us a break!

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## Spitfighter

Frankenstein said:


> As if we care what you say



Likewise, but you can't have Kashmir until and unless we leave, and we don't plan on leaving anytime soon 





> Whats so funny aughh??, lots of Kashmirs martyred every day and ur finding it funny, typical Indian



Those stats are nothing but laughable. Typical Pakistani propaganda. 



> As soon as India stop going to UN for help



Lol. We aren't beating our chests over defunct UNSC resolutions are we?



> There is hell of a difference between India and Pakistan



Oh I know.



> No we are talking about Kashmir right know and if you r not that illiterate then i guess u noe that* Kashmir was part of Pakistan after partition in 1947*



HAHA! That actually made me laugh. Forget about my educational background, are you sure you're literate? when was Kashmir a part of Pakistan? 



> roflcopter



Kashmir for Punjab? Come on, that's fair


----------



## gubbi

Windjammer said:


> India, Bharat or Hindustan.................
> Which one do you belong to.???



All. Howz that? Do the math for each alphabet and you will find successful Indians in every country you name!

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## Spitfighter

gubbi said:


> And we are to believe a blog to be a reliable source? Those pics could have been from a rally in Karachi or even Quetta for that matter! Geez give us a break!



Its from 'pakistankakhudahafiz' lol. What else can one expect?! The pictures are probably from Lahore or Karachi. 

There are plenty of other 'insightful' articles on there by legends such as Moin Ansari and Zaid Hamid, you know, people that speak the 'truth'

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## ironman

jinxeD_girl said:


> Forget about Iran, Netherlands etc... You guyz can't even hold those lands which are part of your National Anthem...
> 
> Thou art the ruler of the minds of all people,
> Dispenser of India's destiny.
> Thy name rouses the hearts of *Punjab*, *Sind,*
> Gujarat and Maratha,
> Of the Dravida and Orissa and Bengal;
> It echoes in the hills of the Vindhyas and Himalayas,
> mingles in the music of Jamuna and Ganges and is
> chanted by the waves of the Indian Sea.
> They pray for thy blessings and sing thy praise.
> The saving of all people waits in thy hand,
> Thou dispenser of India's destiny.
> Victory, victory, victory to thee.
> 
> Sindh is part of Pakistan now...  Also I am sure the name "India" doesn't rouses the heart of 70% Pakistani Punjabis on our side either...
> *
> Your National Anthem is outdated, it is time to CHANGE IT*




"K" stands for Kashmir? .. I thought it was "Azad" Kashmir.


----------



## jinxeD_girl

ironman said:


> "K" stands for Kashmir? .. I thought it was "Azad" Kashmir.



Whether Azad or not, Pakistan controls 1/3 Kashmir... Therefore, the name "Pakistan" is not outdated...

On the other hand... your National Anthem is OUTDATED.. *All* of SINDH is part of Pakistan now...


----------



## ironman

jinxeD_girl said:


> Whether Azad or not, Pakistan controls 1/3 Kashmir... Therefore, the name "Pakistan" is not outdated...
> 
> On the other hand... your National Anthem is OUTDATED.. *All* of SINDH is part of Pakistan now...



If you are not aware of what I mentioned, there is no need of an argument.


----------



## jinxeD_girl

ironman said:


> If you are not aware of what I mentioned, there is no need of an argument.



Ok I am not aware... I haven't read all the posts in this thread.. what was your argument ?


----------



## ironman

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ok I am not aware... I haven't read all the posts in this thread.. what was your argument ?



OK here goes... what Pakistan will do if they regain Kashmir? will it be added with own land.. 

Remember the official stand.


----------



## sur

ironman said:


> OK here goes... what Pakistan will do if they regain Kashmir? will it be added with own land..
> 
> Remember the official stand.


we'll give them right of self determination,,, that was actually promised by india.


----------



## Windjammer

gubbi said:


> I was talking about the pic YOU posted. Is there a Pakistani flag in that pic?



Unless you don't know what it looks like.




gubbi said:


> And we are to believe a blog to be a reliable source? Those pics could have been from a rally in Karachi or even Quetta for that matter! Geez give us a break!



Pick your choice.


----------



## Windjammer

gubbi said:


> All. Howz that? Do the math for each alphabet and you will find successful Indians in every country you name!



But not in Kashmir.


----------



## Windjammer

Spitfighter said:


> Its from 'pakistankakhudahafiz' lol. What else can one expect?! The pictures are probably from Lahore or Karachi.
> 
> There are plenty of other 'insightful' articles on their by legends such as Moin Ansari and Zaid Hamid, you know, people that speak the 'truth'



Picky and choosy are we, no comment on the other picture.
And this is Srinagar in China.

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## jinxeD_girl

ironman said:


> OK here goes... what Pakistan will do if they regain Kashmir? will it be added with own land..
> 
> Remember the official stand.



Ok even in that case (independent Kashmir).. the name Pakistan doesn't become obsolete because it is more known with its other meaning... "Pak" means pure and "Stan" means (country)... *Stan is formed from the old Iranian root *sta- "to stand, stay," and means "place where one stays," i.e. homeland or country. *

On the other hand, your national anthem is obsolete. Even the name INDIA comes from INDUS (which flows through Pakistan now). The name India (pronounced /&#712;&#618;ndi&#601;/) is derived from Indus, which is derived from the Old Persian word Hindu, from Sanskrit &#2360;&#2367;&#2344;&#2381;&#2343;&#2369; Sindhu, the historic local appellation for the Indus River. The ancient Greeks referred to the Indians as Indoi (&#921;&#957;&#948;&#959;&#943, the people of the Indus.

This means the ancient Greeks were referring to people of Modern Day Pakistan, and not the Modern Day India.. Therefore, it is time to change the name of YOUR country too...


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## ironman

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ok even in that case (independent Kashmir).. the name Pakistan doesn't become obsolete because it is more known with its other meaning... "Pak" means pure and "Stan" means (country)... *Stan is formed from the old Iranian root *sta- "to stand, stay," and means "place where one stays," i.e. homeland or country. *
> 
> On the other hand, your national anthem is obsolete. Even the name INDIA comes from INDUS (which flows through Pakistan now). The name India (pronounced /&#712;&#618;ndi&#601;/) is derived from Indus, which is derived from the Old Persian word Hindu, from Sanskrit &#2360;&#2367;&#2344;&#2381;&#2343;&#2369; Sindhu, the historic local appellation for the Indus River. The ancient Greeks referred to the Indians as Indoi (&#921;&#957;&#948;&#959;&#943, the people of the Indus.
> 
> This means the ancient Greeks were referring to people of Modern Day Pakistan, and not the Modern Day India.. Therefore, it is time to change the name of YOUR country too...



Thanks for the brief history lesson. FYI its indus valley civilization.


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## jinxeD_girl

ironman said:


> Thanks for the brief history lesson. FYI its indus valley civilization.



Indus valley civilization doesn't include more than 85% of India . It was mostly based in Pakistan.. 

http://img221.imageshack.us/i/worldindusvalleymap.png/


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## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ok even in that case (independent Kashmir).. the name Pakistan doesn't become obsolete because it is more known with its other meaning... "Pak" means pure and "Stan" means (country)... *Stan is formed from the old Iranian root *sta- "to stand, stay," and means "place where one stays," i.e. homeland or country. *
> 
> On the other hand, your national anthem is obsolete. Even the name INDIA comes from INDUS (which flows through Pakistan now). The name India (pronounced /&#712;&#618;ndi&#601;/) is derived from Indus, which is derived from the Old Persian word Hindu, from Sanskrit &#2360;&#2367;&#2344;&#2381;&#2343;&#2369; Sindhu, the historic local appellation for the Indus River. The ancient Greeks referred to the Indians as Indoi (&#921;&#957;&#948;&#959;&#943, the people of the Indus.
> 
> This means the ancient Greeks were referring to people of Modern Day Pakistan, and not the Modern Day India.. Therefore, it is time to change the name of YOUR country too...



then why are you calling your nation Pakistan since it was the core of Indus valley civilization. I think you guys should change the name of Pakistan into "Industan"


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## ironman

No wonder your name is jinxed... its a civilisation, which has started...the beginning... of our ancestors.


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## jinxeD_girl

xebex said:


> then why are you calling your nation Pakistan since it was the core of Indus valley civilization. I think you guys should change the name of Pakistan into "Industan"



Why should we call it INDUSTAN? We can call our lands whatever we want.. PAKISTAN is better as it represents all provinces of Pakistan, unlike INDUSTAN which was mostly based around Indus river. Even the name INDUSTAN would fit Pakistan perfectly bcoz it is the core of Indus valley civilization.

But unlike ours, your country and national anthem is based on something which is NOT part of India anymore...


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## jinxeD_girl

ironman said:


> No wonder your name is jinxed... its a civilisation, which has started...the beginning... of our ancestors.



My real name is not jinxed, but thanks for assuming... lol!


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## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> India, Bharat or Hindustan.................
> Which one do you belong to.???



All mean the same thing dude...


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## karan.1970

jinxeD_girl said:


> Forget about Iran, Netherlands etc... You guyz can't even hold those lands which are part of your National Anthem...


We havent lost a a part since independence..Unlike you know who..



jinxeD_girl said:


> Sindh is part of Pakistan now...  Also I am sure the name "India" doesn't rouses the heart of 70% Pakistani Punjabis on our side either...
> *
> Your National Anthem is outdated, it is time to CHANGE IT*



Out dated or not, its still our anthem and stays...who knows


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## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> This means the ancient Greeks were referring to people of Modern Day Pakistan, and not the Modern Day India.. *Therefore, it is time to change the name of YOUR country* too...





jinxeD_girl said:


> We can call our lands whatever we want.



^^^^In behalf of all the Indians, u just replied on your own statement.

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## jinxeD_girl

karan.1970 said:


> We havent lost a a part since independence..Unlike you know who..



Bangladesh isn't not part of Pakistan.. Bangladesh doesn't border us and WE never accepted them in the first place... There is NO "B" in Pakistan AND our National Anthem doesn't include references to Bengal...  On the other hand, ur country name and anthem is based on something which is not part of India anymore...


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## jinxeD_girl

xebex said:


> ^^^^In behalf of all the Indians, u just replied on your own statement.



Yes... BUT I won't base the name of my country which isn't part of my country geography anymore.. now calling Pakistan, Gangaland or Jamunaland doesn't make any sense.. does it ?

But we can name our country based on something which is part of Pakistan....


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## karan.1970

jinxeD_girl said:


> Bangladesh isn't not part of Pakistan.. Bangladesh doesn't border us and WE never accepted them in the first place... There is NO "B" in Pakistan AND our National Anthem doesn't include references to Bengal...  On the other hand, ur country name and anthem is based on something which is not part of India anymore...



wow! case of sour grapes if i ever saw one...


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## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> But not in Kashmir.



Every successful man in Kashmir is a successful Indian in India..


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## jinxeD_girl

karan.1970 said:


> wow! case of sour grapes if i ever saw one...



No! Lemme explain it to you... Pakistanis never accepted Bangladeshis... thats a FACT! All ethnic groups of Pakistan used to consider Bangladeshis as something which they felt NO CONNECTION TOO (to put it politely). They have more in common with INDIA as compared to Pakistan.


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## jinxeD_girl

Also loosing East Pakistan have no effect on our national anthem and our country's name... unlike "India" and its National Anthem..


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## ironman

jinxeD_girl said:


> Also loosing East Pakistan have no effect on our national anthem and our country's name... unlike "India" and its National Anthem..



The one and only problem with your national anthem is it is written in a foreign born language....Guess which foreign country

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## jinxeD_girl

ironman said:


> The one and only problem with your national anthem is it is written in a foreign born language....Guess which foreign country



Persian is not just the language of Iran.. it is the language of all countries of GREATER IRAN (which includes Western parts of Pakistan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan).. Deep Urdu is quite similar to Persian... If you read deep Urdu poetry written by great Urdu poets like Iqbal etc, it is in Persian. And Pakistan holding second largest Iranic population after Iran (Pashtuns, Balochis and Farsiwans)... having our National Anthem and country's name root in Persian isn't out of place. 

The official language of Punjab and Sindh was also Persian before partition. Therefore, having our national anthem in Persian and linking ourselves with Persian culture is still NOT OF PLACE. Unlike your country's name and national anthem which was first sung to welcome George V on his visit to India.. references to Sindh and naming your country on something which isn't part of India anymore..


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## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> Also loosing East Pakistan have no effect on our national anthem and our country's name... unlike "India" and its National Anthem..



well, you do realize that your national language was originated OUTSIDE modern day pakistan right? then why being proud about something that is not yours?


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## jinxeD_girl

xebex said:


> well, you do realize that your national language was originated OUTSIDE modern day pakistan right? then why being proud about something that is not yours?



to be honest as a Punjabi I am not proud of "Urdu" language . It is not our language, it is the language of 8% Indians who migrated from India and settled in Pakistan. 

But unlike myself.. you guyz are PROUD INDIANS who love their NATIONAL ANTHEM...  and technically both the term "India" and "National Anthem" are obsolete... both referring to parts of Pakistan...


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## Jade

Even if Pakistan changes its name to KKKKKKKK, it is not going to get even an inch of Kashmir.

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## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> to be honest as a Punjabi I am not proud of "Urdu" language . It is not our language, it is the language of 8&#37; Indians who migrated from India and settled in Pakistan.



Who cares if you are proud or not about Urdu; thatz totally upto you.................But, the hardcore fact is your "NATIONAL LANGUAGE" is Urdu and your official language is English. Both doesnt belong to you. Yes or no?

Then, why laugh at someone's yellow teeth when u dont have a teeth?

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## jinxeD_girl

xebex said:


> Who cares if you are proud or not about Urdu; thatz totally upto you.................But, the hardcore fact is your "NATIONAL LANGUAGE" is Urdu and your official language is English. Both doesnt belong to you. Yes or no?
> 
> Then, why laugh at someone's yellow teeth when u dont have a teeth?



So? Many other countries have English, French, Spanish as their official or national languages... Having English or Urdu as official language is not the same as referring to parts of OTHER countries in your National Anthem or basing your country name on some civilization or river which is NOT part of India anymore...

The fact is your National Anthem is obsolete as SINDH is NOT part of India... not even an inch of it... And your own people like Sanjeev Bhatnagar have filed a petition alleging that it was improper for continuing with the word Sindh' in the Anthem as the province fell within the geographical domain of Pakistan. 

Sanjeev Bhatnagar should also petition for changing the name of the Country because geographically Indus river and civilization is not part of India anymore...


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## jinxeD_girl

I can't recall any other country right now... whose name/national anthem is based on parts of some other country *except* India... I might be wrong... I have to do some research on this...


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## ironman

jinxeD_girl said:


> to be honest as a Punjabi I am not proud of "Urdu" language . It is not our language, it is the language of 8% Indians who migrated from India and settled in Pakistan.
> 
> But unlike myself.. you guyz are PROUD INDIANS who love their NATIONAL ANTHEM...  and technically both the term "India" and "National Anthem" are obsolete... both referring to parts of Pakistan...



That was a cheap shot.. You are not proud of Urdu ? the language which was the root cause for creation of Pakistan.


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## ironman

jinxeD_girl said:


> I can't recall any other country right now... whose name/national anthem is based on parts of some other country *except* India... I might be wrong... I have to do some research on this...



Oh one from my side.. your departed part has one.


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## jinxeD_girl

ironman said:


> That was a cheap shot.. You are not proud of Urdu ? the language which was the root cause for creation of Pakistan.



No I am not proud of Urdu... i am NOT ashamed of it either.. It is just a language like other languages...  And that doesn't make me any LESS Pakistani.. 

If SOME South Indian is not proud of Hindi and prefers Tamil or Telugu... does it make him any less Indian ?


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## jinxeD_girl

ironman said:


> Oh one from my side.. your departed part has one.



Oh I didn't know that... Does Bangladesh national anthem have references to India ?


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## ironman

jinxeD_girl said:


> Persian is not just the language of Iran.. it is the language of all countries of GREATER IRAN (which includes Western parts of Pakistan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan).. Deep Urdu is quite similar to Persian... If you read deep Urdu poetry written by great Urdu poets like Iqbal etc, it is in Persian. And Pakistan holding second largest Iranic population after Iran (Pashtuns, Balochis and Farsiwans)... having our National Anthem and country's name root in Persian isn't out of place.
> 
> The official language of Punjab and Sindh was also Persian before partition. Therefore, having our national anthem in Persian and linking ourselves with Persian culture is still NOT OF PLACE. Unlike your country's name and national anthem which was first sung to welcome George V on his visit to India.. references to Sindh and naming your country on something which isn't part of India anymore..



Great going buddy..some more history lessons.. What was the first national anthem of Pakistan?


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## ironman

jinxeD_girl said:


> Oh I didn't know that... Does Bangladesh national anthem have references to India ?



Its even written by an Indian..enough.?


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## jinxeD_girl

ironman said:


> Its even written by an Indian..enough.?



Shame on them and shame on Indians for doing that


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## jinxeD_girl

ironman said:


> Great going buddy..some more history lessons.. What was the first national anthem of Pakistan?



The one written by Jagannath Azad and your point is ?


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## ironman

jinxeD_girl said:


> Shame on them and shame on Indians for doing that



Shame on what?? Unlike Pakistan they didn't held a national competition for national anthem...


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## jinxeD_girl

ironman said:


> Shame on what?? Unlike Pakistan they didn't held a national competition for national anthem...



but what it has to do with Indian National Anthem being obsolete and the word "India" coming from Indus which is part of Pakistan?


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## ironman

jinxeD_girl said:


> but what it has to do with Indian National Anthem being obsolete and the word "India" coming from Indus which is part of Pakistan?



Why didn't you understand its from indus valley civilization...not related a certain river or place...

PS: Do you know where is the starting place of Indus river?

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## jinxeD_girl

ironman said:


> Why didn't you understand its from indus valley civilization...not related a certain river or place...
> 
> PS: Do you know where is the starting place of Indus river?



what about Sindh ? its starting and ending place is in Pakistan.. isn't it time to change your Anthem? You have so many states.. just substitute some other state name in place of Sindh. 

The heart of Indus Valley Civilization was based in and around Pakistan... You don't see us naming our country based on the civilizations which are part of other countries...

Anywayz, it is useless to argue with you..


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## ironman

jinxeD_girl said:


> what about Sindh ? its starting and ending place is in Pakistan.. isn't it time to change your Anthem? You have so many states.. just substitute some other state name in place of Sindh.
> 
> The heart of Indus Valley Civilization was based in and around Pakistan... You don't see us naming our country based on the civilizations which are part of other countries...
> 
> Anywayz, it is useless to argue with you..



High five for your history and geography....tell me what is the difference between Indus and Sindh..


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## jinxeD_girl

ironman said:


> High five for your history and geography....tell me what is the difference between Indus and Sindh..



I think you misread me.. I know the starting place of Indus river...

I was talking about your national anthem... lol!


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## ironman

jinxeD_girl said:


> The heart of Indus Valley Civilization was based in and around Pakistan... You don't see us naming our country based on the civilizations which are part of other countries...



We aint came from another galaxy we are also part of it.


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## jinxeD_girl

ironman said:


> We aint came from another galaxy we are also part of it.



Ok i am letting you claim Indus valley civilization because as a girl i feel sorry for you... lol! But back of from Sindh!! and take it out of your anthem... Enough is Enough! lol!


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## ironman

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ok i am letting you claim Indus valley civilization because as a girl i feel sorry for you... lol! But back of from Sindh!! and take it out of your anthem... Enough is Enough! lol!



Don't need permission from your side Its there before Pakistan's existence..


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## jinxeD_girl

ironman said:


> Don't need permission from your side Its there before Pakistan's existence..



"From letting you claim", I meant it as an argument.. I am putting the Indus Valley Argument to Rest... otherwise I can keep on going on and on .. But i am exhausted...

As for as other argument is concerned, Sindh in your national anthem... take out the Sindh and substitute it with some other state like "Tamil Nadu"

Got it ??!?? I bet you do!

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## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ok i am letting you claim Indus valley civilization because as a girl i feel sorry for you... lol! But back of from Sindh!! and take it out of your anthem... Enough is Enough! lol!



why do not you understand 
WE CALL INDUS RIVER AS SINDHU ,SINDH , SINDHI in many parts of india


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## ironman

jinxeD_girl said:


> "From letting you claim", I meant it as an argument.. I am putting the Indus Valley Argument to Rest... otherwise I can keep on going on and on .. But i am exhausted...
> 
> As for as other argument is concerned, Sindh in your national anthem... take out the Sindh and substitute it with some other state like "Tamil Nadu"
> 
> Got it ??!?? I bet you do!



Gosh... the anthem mentioning about the cultural/ethnic diversity not states of India... Tamil nadu comes under "dravida"...


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## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> why do not you understand
> WE CALL INDUS RIVER AS SINDHU ,SINDH , SINDHI in many parts of india



Oh God... but your National Anthem is not referring to Sindhu river, but the Province of Sindh... Am I correct ?

*Thy name rouses the hearts of Punjab, Sind,
Gujarat and Maratha,*


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## jinxeD_girl

ironman said:


> Gosh... the anthem mentioning about the different cultural diversity not states of India... Tamil nadu comes under "dravida"...



Many people in your own country think that they are referring to the province of Sindh

'Deletion of Sindh to destroy National Anthem'

New Delhi, March 23: Amidst the controversy generated over a petition seeking deletion of word &#8216;Sindh&#8217; from the National Anthem 'Jana Gana Mana', the Centre has submitted before the Supreme Court that any alteration of Gurudev Rabindranath Tagore's composition would &#8216;almost destroy&#8217; it.


The Union government's stand was filed in an affidavit by the Home Ministry in response to the apex court's notice *on a petition filed by Sanjeev Bhatnagar alleging that it was improper for continuing with the word &#8216;Sindh' in the Anthem as the province fell within the geographical domain of Pakistan.
*

"The National Anthem is a highly emotive issue; any alteration/substitution in the Anthem will not only distort but also almost destroy the Anthem and may unnecessarily give rise to more controversies," the affidavit said. (Source - ExpressIndia.com)


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## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> Oh God... but your National Anthem is not referring to Sindhu river, but the Province of Sindh... Am I correct ?
> 
> *Thy name rouses the hearts of Punjab, Sind,
> Gujarat and Maratha,*


National anthem used the word Sindhu instead of sindh::::

"Punj&#257;ba Sindhu Gujar&#257;&#7789;a Mar&#257;&#7789;h&#257;
Dr&#257;vi&#7693;a Utkala Banga
Vindhya Him&#257;chala Yamun&#257; Gang&#257;
Ucchala jaladhi taranga"




i am saying though It may be used for Sind province earlier ,It CAN NOW be used for sind river,,sind basin or sindhi people.... 

Sindhu is used .... even "Punjab's" old name was "Sapt Sindhu"


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## ironman

Bad copy paste.. why did you omit certain lines purposefully?


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## Abhiras

ironman said:


> Bad copy paste.. why did you omit certain lines purposefully?



Huh
they are not interested in our national anthem 

i copyed the part which contain the name of sindhu & other rivers.


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## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> National anthem used the word Sindhu instead of sindh::::
> 
> "Punj&#257;ba Sindhu Gujar&#257;&#7789;a Mar&#257;&#7789;h&#257;
> Dr&#257;vi&#7693;a Utkala Banga
> Vindhya Him&#257;chala Yamun&#257; Gang&#257;
> Ucchala jaladhi taranga"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i am saying though It may be used for Sind province earlier ,*It CAN NOW be used for sind river,,sind basin or sindhi people.... *
> 
> Sindhu is used .... even "Punjab's" old name was "Sapt Sindhu"



Ok good... then I am sure you guyz would have NO objection with "K" in Pakistan if you want to use that excuse... If 0.01&#37; of Sindhi Hindus can represent the "cultural diversity" in your national anthem... so can all the Kashmiris (Butt's etc) who have settled in our Punjab region can represent the "K" in Pakistan whether K remains independent or part of India...


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## ironman

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ok good... then I am sure you guyz would have NO objection with "K" in Pakistan if you want to use that excuse... If 0.01% of Sindhi Hindus can represent the "cultural diversity" in your national anthem... so can all the Kashmiris (Butt's etc) who have settled in our Punjab region can represent the "K" in Pakistan whether K remains independent or part of India...



You can use single, double or triple K s in your name all up to your choice.. But reminding that only K s... nothing else.


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## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ok good... then I am sure you guyz would have NO objection with "K" in Pakistan if you want to use that excuse... If 0.01% of Sindhi Hindus can represent the "cultural diversity" in your national anthem... so can all the Kashmiris (Butt's etc) who have settled in our Punjab region can represent the "K" in Pakistan whether K remains independent or part of India...




OK no problem,, you can use for kashmiri people living in pakistan....but do not use it for kashmir region  as it is a part of India.


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## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> OK no problem,, you can use for kashmiri people living in pakistan....but do not use it for kashmir region  as it is a part of India.



Anywayz, you guyz should consider changing your national anthem which was composed in December 1911, precisely at the time of the Coronation Durbar of George V. It is pretty outdated anthem and was composed when Pakistan was part of India. Look at all the controversies associated with it 

Jana Gana Mana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am sure if Allama Iqbal was alive AFTER partition.. he may have changed his poem "Sarey Jahan sai acha Hindustan Hamara" to"Sarey Jahan sai acha Pakistan Hamara".. When he wrote that poem ... Pakistan didn't exist.. 

People have to accept realities and change with times... 

Bye I am going to bed now..


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## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> Anywayz, you guyz should consider changing your national anthem which was composed in December 1911, precisely at the time of the Coronation Durbar of George V. It is pretty outdated anthem and was composed when Pakistan was part of India. Look at all the controversies associated with it



"Vande Mataram"(owe to motherland) was the unofficial national anthem during the freedom fight....
it was accepted in 1937

After Independence there were controversies that some communities who opposed idol worship were offended by its depiction of the nation as "Mother Durga", a Hindu goddess.
{{Though it was great idea ,, nation was compared to god}}

SECULAR leader of India then adopted Jana Gana Mana as national anthem to avoid controversy 

first president of india said ::
""The composition consisting of words and music known as Jana Gana Mana is the National Anthem of India, subject to such alterations as the Government may authorise as occasion arises, and the song Vande Mataram, which has played a historic part in the struggle for Indian freedom, shall be honored equally with Jana Gana Mana and shall have equal status with it. ""


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## jinxeD_girl

> SECULAR leader of India then adopted Jana Gana Mana as national anthem *to avoid controversy *



but the controversies continued...


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## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> but the controversies continued...



presently there is no controversy on our national anthem: Jana Gana Mana
((there are many controvercies to our national songs 'Vande matram'
which some muslims declaredm they will not sing))

in 2005 the case was filed in Supreme Coart of India to deleat the word sindh from nationalal anthem but was rejected....

Every indian sees the National Anthem with respect
((Most indian sees the national song with respect))


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## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> presently there is no controversy on our national anthem: Jana Gana Mana
> ((there are many controvercies to our national songs 'Vande matram'
> which some muslims declaredm they will not sing))
> 
> in 2005 the case was filed in Supreme Coart of India to deleat the word sindh from nationalal anthem but was rejected....
> 
> *Every indian sees the National Anthem with respect*
> ((Most indian sees the national song with respect))




I am not Indian and controversies don't involve Indians only...  I object to using Punjab and Sindh in your national anthem.. You can stick with your own opinion and I will stick to mine..  hehe

Good night... I am really tired now... we will continue with this tomorrow...


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## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> I am not Indian and controversies don't involve Indians only...  I object to using* Punjab *and Sindh in your national anthem.. You can stick with your own opinion and I will stick to mine..  hehe
> 
> Good night... I am really tired now... we will continue with this tomorrow...



Oh go & sleep now......i will outanswer you tommorow


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## EjazR

* More than 7,000 Kashmiris take exams to join police*

By IANS,

Srinagar: More than 7,000 Kashmiri youth across the Valley Saturday took examinations to join the police force.

"More than 7,000 candidates who had passed the physical tests for selection to the posts of sub-inspector of police sat for the written exams in the Valley," Owais Ahmad, inspector general of police, told IANS.

"Similarly, 6,000 candidates sat for the same exam in the Jammu region," he added.

Thronging the various examination centres in the state's summer capital Srinagar, the candidates were very enthusiastic to join the local police department.

"It has been my dream to join the police department. The concept of the service has completely changed over the years. If one is sincere and dedicated, he can do a lot for the society being a police officer," said Shakeel Ahmed, a candidate who appeared at one of the examination centres here.

The response by the locals to join the police department is a far cry from the early days of violence here in 1990 when Kashmiris would fear even admitting they had relatives or friends in the police force.

"The uniform has its own dignity and grace. If more and more qualified youth join the police department the ages-old mindset about the police being a ruthless, merciless force would change," said Bilal Ahmad, 51, who accompanied his son Arif to one of the examination centres.

However, some of the candidates said they had decided to join the police department as they had no other avenue of employment.

"I have passed my masters in computer applications and would have liked to join a department where my skills would be put to some better use.

"Anyway, I must do my best to make it to the selection list," said Muzaffar Ahmad, 25.

Asked to comment on Muzaffar's remark that the knowledge of computers would not have much use in the police department, a senior police officer said: "It is strange some candidates don't have the right notion about the use of computers and information technology in the police department.

"The state police force is using information technology in every field of its activity and we plan to put every police station in the state online by employing computer technology within the next few years," he added.

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## navtrek

More opportunities for youth of Kashmir should be created its pointless for thousand of ppl joining the police not because they want to but because they have limited opportunities 

Hope to see more opportunities in the valley  the government & the private sector must increase their investment.


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## Avatar

navtrek said:


> More opportunities for youth of Kashmir should be created its pointless for thousand of ppl joining the police not because they want to but because they have limited opportunities
> 
> Hope to see more opportunities in the valley  the government & the private sector must increase their investment.



Exactly. The Kashmiri youth should be provided the same opportunities as any other youth in India. However, this is a good step forward. Things are definitely getting better.


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## karan.1970

get rid of article 370 and allow all indian conglomerates to open industries in J&K. It will solve for itself


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## Valiant_Soul

karan.1970 said:


> get rid of article 370 and allow all indian conglomerates to open industries in J&K. It will solve for itself



Why is it still in place?


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## RobbieS

Valiant_Soul said:


> Why is it still in place?



Appeasement politics is my guess. GoI tries to keep the moderate Hurriyat faction on its side by not diluting Kashmir's autonomous nature. But this has restricted economic development as well. We need to add a clause in Article 370 allowing for entry of Indian business houses.


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## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> All mean the same thing dude...


You could have fooled me,
But some prefer one than the other.


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## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> Every successful man in Kashmir is a successful Indian in India..



And every suffering Kashmiri is ..............


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## Choppers

LOL Pakistanis deeply suffer from Identity Crisis.


----------



## Gin ka Pakistan

Choppers said:


> LOL Pakistanis deeply suffer from Identity Crisis.


Better then Indians wanna be's


----------



## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> *Shame on them *and shame on Indians for doing that



Hun, that shame rightfully goes to Mr.Jinnah, if u can check the history. Hindu dude did it bcoz Jinnah asked for it.

Added: I dont want to drag mine or ur 'father of the nation' into this silly talk, but hey u asked for it.


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## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> So? Many other countries have English, French, Spanish as their official or national languages... Having English or Urdu as official language is not the same as referring to parts of OTHER countries in your National Anthem or basing your country name on some civilization or river which is NOT part of India anymore...



It doesnt matter, atleast in this context, that howmany countries are using languages that werent originated in their land. That simply is not the matter we were discussing about; unless u r tryin for a de-tour, r u?.

Now, we are talking about India and Pakistan here. Your argument is that India is using the word "Sindh" in her national anthem which is not part of India anymore, hence India need to update its National Anthem. Now, me on the otherhand is claiming, your NATIONAL LANGUAGE itself have no connection with current day Pakistan and it simply doesnt belong to you. Same with your offical language English. Therefore replace it with something else.

You simply cannot escape from this reality by keep repeating "noun*+*verb*+* OutdatedAnthem" sentance allover this thread, hun. You are using something ur neighbour developed, and that is a hardcore fact. So my friend, I would reccommend you guys to re-write your constition and get over it. Then we will see if you have the privillage to say India need to update its National Anthem.


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## jinxeD_girl

xebex said:


> It doesnt matter, atleast in this context, that howmany countries are using languages that werent originated in their land. That simply is not the matter we were discussing about; unless u r tryin for a de-tour, r u?.
> 
> Now, we are talking about India and Pakistan here. Your argument is that India is using the word "Sindh" in her national anthem which is not part of India anymore, hence India need to update its National Anthem. Now, me on the otherhand is claiming, your NATIONAL LANGUAGE itself have no connection with current day Pakistan and it simply doesnt belong to you. Same with your offical language English. Therefore replace it with something else.
> 
> You simply cannot escape from this reality by keep repeating "noun*+*verb*+* OutdatedAnthem" sentance allover this thread, hun. You are using something ur neighbour developed, and that is a hardcore fact. So my friend, I would reccommend you guys to re-write your constition and get over it. Then we will see if you have the privillage to say India need to update its National Anthem.



In the end, I agreed with Indian excuse that Indians use Sindh in their National Anthem is because 0.01% Sindhi Hindus and culture are part of Indian culture and fabric . I thought they were referring to Province of Sindh itself. 

Pakistanis can use the same excuse that 8% Indian Muslims who migrated from India and settled in Pakistan are part of our culture and fabric, that is why our National Language is Urdu. After all all elite Muslims from upper and upper middle classes migrated to Pakistan.


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## jinxeD_girl

And please don't call me "hun". Some other Indian member "Tadka" was sending me kisses. eewwww. Got it darkie ?


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## alirulesall123

jinxeD_girl said:


> Got it Darkie?



Chill out with the personal insults, brah. Just because they're Indian doesn't mean that you can attack them personally.

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## jinxeD_girl

alirulesall123 said:


> Chill out with the personal insults, brah. Just because they're Indian doesn't mean that you can attack them personally.



Ok sorry for calling him "darkie". Ok my Indian Whitie Brother... ummm no... Indians are not my brothers either.. my sweet Indian neighbor, don't call me "hun" next time... Thanks..


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## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> Got it darkie ?



Though that was a racial assault, amma let u go this time 'untouched' assuming u, being a newbie, havent read the rules of this forum. watch out next time...........


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## jinxeD_girl

> Though that was a racial assault, amma let u go this time 'untouched' assuming u, being a newbie, havent read the rules of this forum. Btw, I wonder if u hav the gutts to call me that in person. Do us a favor, watch out next time......................



There is a 0% chance that I will call that to you in person. I avoid or try to avoid all Indians in real life. I know I am little arrogant, but I can't help it.


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## alirulesall123

Just ignore her Xebex, I don't know what her deal is. Indians are brothers to me, and always will be.

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## jinxeD_girl

alirulesall123 said:


> Just ignore her Xebex, I don't know what her deal is. Indians are brothers to me, and always will be.



Indians are not my brothers  Anywayz, this comment by Xebex really made me laugh "Though that was a racial assault, amma let u go this time 'untouched'"... That sounds like a typical dialogue out of some Bollywood movie...  Anil Kapoor said that to Sri Devi in some film... I am laughing so much...


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## alirulesall123

jinxeD_girl said:


> Indians are not my brothers  Anywayz, this comment by Xebex really made me laugh "Though that was a racial assault, amma let u go this time 'untouched'"... That sounds like a typical dialogue out of some Bollywood movie...  Anil Kapoor said that to Sri Devi in some film... I am laughing so much...



What's so bad about Indians? Overall, I find them somewhat more moderate and bearable than Pakistanis.


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## jinxeD_girl

alirulesall123 said:


> What's so bad about Indians? Overall, I find them somewhat more moderate and bearable than Pakistanis.



We will discuss this some other day. Right now I don't feel like hijacking this thread and blamed for being "racist" for my views.


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## xebex

alirulesall123 said:


> Just ignore her Xebex, I don't know what her deal is. *Indians are brothers to me*, and always will be.



yeah man I know that. was tellin the newbies to know the rules of the game before getting fired. btw, howz it going?

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## jinxeD_girl

alirulesall123 said:


> What's so bad about Indians? Overall, I find them somewhat more moderate and bearable than Pakistanis.



But wait... weren't you the one who made this statement not so long ago "Most afghans are illiterate and barbaric". If you can express your views freely, so can I.

Talk about hypocrisy..


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## alirulesall123

xebex said:


> yeah man I know that. was tellin the newbies to know the rules of the game before getting fired. btw, howz it going?



Things are going good bro, I'm just getting adjusted to my new high school in nebraska 



jinxeD_girl said:


> But wait... weren't you the one who made this statement not so long ago "Most afghans are illiterate and barbaric". If you can express your views freely, so can I.
> 
> Talk about hypocrisy..



Nah I really don't care about what you say, I was just wondering why you don't like Indians, considering that Indians and Pakistanis are pretty much 99.99&#37; the same...


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## jinxeD_girl

> Nah I really don't care about what you say, I was just wondering why you don't like Indians, considering that Indians and Pakistanis are pretty much 99.99&#37; the same...



Are you originally from Karachi? Mostly they claim to be 99.99% same as Indians... How many times I told you that people from Pakhtunwa, Balochistan, Kashmir, Northern Areas and Northern Punjab have very little in common with mainland India and Indians.


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## alirulesall123

jinxeD_girl said:


> Are you originally from Karachi? Mostly they claim to be 99.99&#37; same as Indians... How many times I told you that people from Pakhtunwa, Balochistan, Kashmir, Northern Areas and Northern Punjab have very little in common with mainland India and Indians.



No, my mom is a sunni pashtun from D.I. Khan, and my Dad is a punjabi shia from Lahore, so I don't really consider myself anything besides Pakistani. 

And go to India, if you ignore all the hindi signs and slightly browner skin tone you will think that you are in Pakistan 

Although I'll admit, South Indians are a lot more civilized and less jingoistic than both North Indians and Pakistanis, maybe that's why living conditions are so much better in South India.


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## jinxeD_girl

alirulesall123 said:


> No, my mom is a sunni pashtun from D.I. Khan, and my Dad is a punjabi shia from Lahore, so I don't really consider myself anything besides Pakistan.
> 
> And go to India, if you ignore all the hindi signs and slightly browner skin tone you will think that you are in Pakistan
> 
> Although I'll admit, South Indians are a lot more civilized and less jingoistic than both North Indians and Pakistanis, maybe that's why living conditions are so much better in South India.



The place where I live, study and work... that place is heavily dominated by South Indians... and I for once don't find them civilized. They don't have any table manners, they are cheap and suffer from inferiority complexes... Other than "hindi signs", "slightly darker skin tone", there are many other cultural clues that separate us from them.

I think you are talking about those South Indians who are born and raised in USA, and not the ones who are Freshies off the boats right ?


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## alirulesall123

jinxeD_girl said:


> The place where I live, study and work... that place is heavily dominated by South Indians... and I for once don't find them civilized. They don't have any table manners, they are cheap and suffer from inferiority complexes... Other than "hindi signs", "slightly darker skin tone", there are many other cultural clues that separate us from them.
> 
> I think you are talking about those South Indians who are born and raised in USA, and not the ones who are Freshies off the boats right ?



No, I'm actually talking about the ones in South India. I remember getting on a bus in South India, and everyone was very organized and quiet the whole ride. In north india, such a thing would be pretty much unimaginable. 

And you seriously need to stop dissing Indian Immigrants to the USA, you do know that Indian Americans have a slightly higher GDP per capita than Pakistani Americans, right?


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## jinxeD_girl

alirulesall123 said:


> No, I'm actually talking about the ones in South India. I remember getting on a bus in South India, and everyone was very organized and quiet the whole ride. In north india, such a thing would be pretty much unimaginable.
> 
> And you seriously need to stop dissing Indian Immigrants to the USA, you do know that Indian Americans have a slightly higher GDP per capita than Pakistani Americans, right?



I don't care. Indians are taking our jobs and there is resentment among many Americans about this. I don't know when they will stop cheap outsourcing of jobs to India. I think Obama promised us about bringing jobs back and stop outsourcing, right ? Not sure?


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## alirulesall123

jinxeD_girl said:


> I don't care. Indians are taking our jobs and there is resentment among many Americans about this. I don't know when they will stop cheap outsourcing of jobs to India. I think Obama promised us about bringing jobs back and stop outsourcing, right ? Not sure?



Indian Americans are not taking our jobs. But i see where you're coming from, with the whole outsourcing thing. If I remember correctly, Obama did promise to try and decrease the instances of outsourcing, his quote was "Choose Detroit and not Bangalore", or something along those lines.


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## jinxeD_girl

Ok... Anywayz Sorry Xebex...


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## alirulesall123

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ok... Anywayz Sorry Xebex...


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## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> I don't care. Indians are taking our jobs and there is resentment among many Americans about this.



Nobody is putting a gun on anybody's head and stealing their job. U missed the fact that business with India is also creating jobs and revenue inside US like defence deals, civilian nuclear power plants etc. From the intensity of cooperation I have seen for the past few years, it seems Lockheed's and Boeing are going to get busy. When such business interactions increase, US and India can create jobs on both side.



jinxeD_girl said:


> I don't know when they will stop cheap outsourcing of jobs to India. I think Obama promised us about bringing jobs back and stop outsourcing, right ? Not sure?



Outsourcing will stop as soon as every american decide to stop visiting Walmart and refuse to buy cheap stuff instead of expensive one.


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## alirulesall123

xebex said:


> Outsourcing will stop as soon as every american decide to stop visiting Walmart and refuse to buy expensive stuff instead of cheap one.



Exactly. Idiots like Reagan traded American jobs in exchange for lower priced goods, and Americans to this day will continue to pay the price.


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## EjazR

Article 370 does not prevent from bussiness opening up in J&K. The main reason they have not opened up is because of violence. Many businesses have already opened up in J&K but strikes and violence are the main concern. Not A370

Besides Himachal Pradesh, Nagaland e.t.c. also have A370 to preserve the cultural anture of the state. A370 was one of the agreements signed when J&K acceded to India. It should be removed only by the approval of both centre and state. And despite some parties making it a communal issue, the reality is most people in J&K across religious and ethnic lines support A370.


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## jinxeD_girl

xebex said:


> Nobody is putting a gun on anybody's head and stealing their job.



Yes, but Indians should really work on their English accent. It annoys lots of people. Indians shouldn't be allowed to take "customer service" jobs.

In August, my Dell computer got infected by a deadly virus "lsass.exe", and the customer service person was someone from India.. In the end it gave me severe headache. They charged my credit card and never sent me the required disks. In the end I filed a long complaint and promised never to buy from Dell again unless they change their customer service. 

I bought my new computer from HP, and their customer service is outsourced to India too. Sigh!


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Do you know where your T-4s are compiled for tax and tax cases are possessed, In your own country ?


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## jinxeD_girl

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> Do you know where your T-4s are compiled for tax and tax cases are possessed, In your own country ?



Are you talking to me? No, I don't know.


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## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> Yes, but Indians should really work on their English accent. It annoys lots of people. Indians shouldn't be allowed to take "customer service" jobs.



Unfortunately, thatz your POV. Relatively well Educated CEO of successful companies dont share your thoughts, am afraid.



jinxeD_girl said:


> *In August, my Dell computer got infected by a deadly virus "lsass.exe", and the customer service person was someone from India.. In the end it gave me severe headache. They charged my credit card and never sent me the required disks. In the end I filed a long complaint and promised never to buy from Dell again unless they change their customer service.*
> 
> I bought my new computer from HP, and their customer service is outsourced to India too. Sigh!



*how do u know for sure that the Indian accent was the real culprit here???? can be otherway around too* get over with ur IndiaPhobia, else u will be having a hardtime replacing computers.

Btw, instead of trainwrecking this thread with multple derailing, why dont u stay on topic??

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## jinxeD_girl

xebex said:


> Unfortunately, thatz your POV. Relatively well Educated CEO of successful companies dont share your thoughts, am afraid.



but the general public does...

Outsourcing Call Center Jobs To India Leads To Bad Customer Service

We live in an extremely politically correct country these days, which means anyone who even mentions anything negative about someone different (like negatively pointing out a foreign accent), or criticizes someone for their inability to speak the language properly, he or she is immediately labeled as prejudiced, racist, or somehow inciting hateful views. Im truly none of those things, but I feel a personal finance blog platform is as good as any to express my own personal views about my own experiences on the matter. While I was born overseas, I came to the U.S. when I was only 2-3 years old, so Ive pretty much grown up as an American and learned to identify strongly with the crux of American culture and its values. While a key component of American culture is the ability to embrace diversity and appreciate differences between different types of people, both foreign and domestic, there are some circumstances when I greatly prefer the services of a fellow American.

This preferential situation comes up whenever I call a live customer service help line. When I pick up the phone and make that affirmative decision to seek help via a toll free telephone number, my reasonable expectation is that I will reach someone who can communicate with me in an intelligible way, and help me resolve my consumer business problem quickly and efficiently, so that I can go along my merry way. Its bad enough that I often have to spend 30 minutes or more waiting on hold before I can talk to a live technical support representative, but these days, it seems when I finally reach that live person, he or she turns out to be completely unable to communicate with me using comprehensible and discernible English.

I Can Deal With Difficult To Understand Accents In Real Life (By Using Hand Gestures), But When The Situations Happen Over The Phone, The Conversations Can Get Comically Tedious

I am terrible when it comes to understanding different accents. Even British English accents trip me up on occasion  but at least it is somewhat closer to American English in terms of speech and pronunciation, albeit a bit more deliberately pronounced I suppose. While I can understand the different types of American English accents such as a southern, Boston, and even accents that distinguish different races and ethnic groups prominent in this country, I still have frequent difficulty understanding the cultural nuances and accents that arent considered mainstream American English. This difficulty in understanding foreign accents is most pronounced and debilitating when it comes to conversations over the phone with someone from another land, especially when I find my phone call re-routed to some outsourced call center located overseas and wind up with a customer service rep who speaks with a thick accent that I simply cannot understand despite my best efforts.

While in a real life conversation and business work setting, heavy accents arent as significant a detriment as there are other methods of communication such as using writing and through natural hand gestures to punctuate ones point, in the world of customer service telephone calls, this type of linguistic verbal diversity is a significant detriment and handicap. When it comes to customer and technical support help lines, communication and speed are two important elements to a quick and satisfactory resolution of the problem at hand. There are plenty of jobs where having a perfect American English accent is not crucial and one can get away with not having otherwise perfect American English, but a position as a customer service call representative that caters to Americans is not one of them. The job absolutely demands that the agent be able to communicate with the language of the target country. Is that really too much to ask? Oftentimes in such scenarios, time and patience are limited luxuries. In such situations, having a thick accent is a very undesired handicap to have, particularly when the issue needs to get resolved quickly over the phone in a short period of time without the benefit of time to get to know each other. This is the biggest problem many customers such as myself are having with companies that continue to outsource their customer service call center jobs overseas to English speaking, but heavily accented countries like India.

Facing An Indian Customer Service Representative With An Incredibly Thick Accent Is Like Talking To A Brick Wall  Nothing Gets Through, and Time Is Wasted

When American call center customer service jobs are outsourced to other countries, I think its reasonable to expect the call agents that will be handling the calls to be trained to speak in proper America English. However that is not always the case. Especially when it comes to Indian call centers, the accent is often an interesting mish mash of British English, local Indian dialect, and butchered American English. What often comes out is an unintelligible murmur, resulting in humorous and frequently embarrassing exchanges between the rep and the customer.

A few years ago, I bought a Linksys wireless Internet router, but had major trouble setting up my wireless connection. I kept losing my wireless internet signal and so I embarked on a customer service phone call quest to solve the problem. I dialed the companys 1-800 number and was promptly connected to an agent. Little did I know, but my call from Maryland, USA was instantly routed thousands of miles across the planet to a different time zone to a call center in India. Immediately when I heard the agents accent, I knew it was going to be a long day. It started as soon as my phone rep introduced herself with a thick Indian accented Hellofollowed by a my name is Mary, a presumably English name moniker chosen by the Indian customer service rep for the convenience sake of their mostly American clientele instead of compelling them to remember a more difficult Indian name. For the next 60 minutes, I struggled valiantly to understand her words and sentences. I tried to remain polite and understanding, but I kept asking her to please repeat herself, much to my continued embarrassment. Every sentence on her part would be followed by a What? on my end, or would be followed by a momentary pause as I scratched my head and tried to figure out what she was trying to tell me.

After a while, I could tell she was getting fed up with having to repeat herself after every instruction, but then what was I supposed to do? I desperately tried to understand, and I really did try  but it was a constant guessing game on my end. I simply could not comprehend the Indian customer service representatives thick Indian English accent. At the end, I got little accomplished because she and I were simply unable to communicate. I found myself spending more than an hour repeating her own words back in my vain attempt to make some linguistic sense. Eventually I had to give up and seek help from another customer service rep. The next reps Indian accent was just as thick and I ultimately had to call back several times before I finally found an agent whos accent was more bearable. But the experience left me with a very negative view of the company and their irresponsible cost cutting efforts to send customer service jobs overseas when the work could be better handled here.

American Companies Who Cater To American Consumers Should Seriously Re-Consider Their Indian Outsourcing Strategy Or Face Consumer Backlash In The Long Run

This is a serious problem that many major American companies who choose to outsource their call center jobs to low cost foreign countries will ultimately have to face. Customers such as myself may eventually take our customer service frustration out on the company and defect to one of their competitors. Based on some news reports Ive read, many companies that have attempted to outsource their customer service functions abroad have not realized the cost savings they expected, discovering that there are hidden costs that far outweighed the potential savings in labor expenses. Oftentimes, due to significant customer complaints about difficult to understand customer service representative accents and great differences in culture, companies have had to expend significant amounts of additional money to train the agents on proper American English and terminology. Ultimately some of these outsourcers have brought those type of jobs back in-house and back into the country.

Faced with backlash from customers like myself who have great difficulty understanding heavily accented Indian English, some companies are actually taking the next logical alternative step by shipping the work over to other moderately English speaking countries, like the Philippines. As a former U.S. controlled territory, the Philippines at least offers a more Americanized work force with a better understanding of American culture that can potentially offer employees with lighter accents. There will still be an annoying accent to deal with, but at least the twang, so to speak, will be significantly less painful to understand than that spoken in India.

There are currently also signs that the trend toward outsourcing call center jobs to low-wage countries like India or even the Philippines may be slowing down. Research shows that some call centers are most effective when staffed by Americans and there is at least some growing attempt to keep jobs here. Ive noticed that many companies are now trying to keep the bulk of their daytime customer service call center jobs in the United States where the calls can be handled by American English speaking agents. For customer service lines that provide 24 hour coverage and take on evening calls however, some still get routed overseas to places like India, but many daytime calls are now being mercifully handled by call centers in the U.S. At least thats what I noticed recently when I called my cable internet providers help line several times recently. When I called during normal daytime office hours, I got a service rep that spoke perfect English, but at night, I basically played the ole accent guessing game, doubling and even tripling the length of time spent trying to resolve my problem.

For those of you out there who are embarrassed to admit but also have difficulty understanding accents, I recommend making your 1-800 customer service and technical support phone calls during the day. Sure that means using up your precious anytime wireless phone minutes, but you stand a much better chance of reaching someone in this country than if you called after hours.


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## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> but the general public does...



It is the CEO that decide the best strategy to make a company successfull NOT the general public, just incase if u didnt know this.


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## jinxeD_girl

I am sure you and alirulesall will find another "excuse" for that too and deny that general public have problems with Indian english accent. I am not against Indian IT professionals and technicians working for Dell and HP. But the person who takes the call should work on his/her accent or they should have some native speaker of english. Period.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

jinxeD_girl said:


> Are you talking to me? No, I don't know.



All record of our payroll is in Indian (all big companies payroll departments are in India) and they will make T-4s slips and when we will file our Taxes, 50&#37; of it will go to India for compiling so I say "be good to Indians"


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## jinxeD_girl

xebex said:


> It is the CEO that decide the best strategy to make a company successfull NOT the general public, just incase if u didnt know this.



A good CEO should take into account the general public interest too or else they will start loosing customers. In case of Dell, they lost a loyal customer like me.


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## jinxeD_girl

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> All record of our payroll is in Indian (all big companies payroll departments are in India) and they will make T-4s slips and when we will file out Taxes, 50% of it will go to India for compiling so I say "be good to Indians"



um Ok!!  

I am sorry Xebex .. Indians have lovely english accents and when I made that call to Dell, the problem was with "me" and not with that "Ajay" guy from India.


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## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> I am sure you and alirulesall will find another "excuse" for that too and deny that general public have problems with Indian english accent. I am not against Indian IT professionals and technicians working for Dell and HP. But the person who takes the call should work on his/her accent or they should have some native speaker of english. Period.



Refer Post #140.


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## jinxeD_girl

xebex said:


> Refer Post #140.



Refer to post 146. I cant open lots of new threads just to discuss Indian accent. You know what I mean?

And moderators of this forum are in the habit of closing many threads in the name of "racism"  So, I guess we have to be politically correct at all times on this forum..


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## Valiant_Soul

*To Jinxed_Girl*

I have managed an outsourcing team of technical support and they did such an outstanding job, that the company extended their operations of two more departments to our company here. Do you know the overall satisfaction level of overseas customers who are treated by employees here in India? If not, simply check the amount of business the outsourcing industry generates and also its rate of growth.

BTW, I see you perceive Indians as mostly ugly. Maybe because you have only met not so good looking Indians - but I should tell you that your perception is only a generalization. I suggest you visit some places in India and then decide for yourself. Also, most Indians are quite fair. But if darkness is something that you consider is diametric to beauty, then I totally disagree.

Lastly, let me complement you for your energy to engage in such war of words.

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## jinxeD_girl

Valiant_Soul said:


> *To Jinxed_Girl*
> 
> I have managed an outsourcing team of technical support and they did such an outstanding job, that the company extended their operations of two more departments to our company here. Do you know the overall satisfaction level of overseas customers who are treated by employees here in India? If not, simply check the amount of business the outsourcing industry generates and also its rate of growth.
> 
> BTW, I see you perceive Indians as mostly ugly. Maybe because you have only met not so good looking Indians - but I should tell you that your perception is only a generalization. I suggest you visit some places in India and then decide for yourself. Also, most Indians are quite fair. But if darkness is something that you consider is diametric to beauty, then I totally disagree.
> 
> Lastly, let me complement you for your energy to engage in such war of words.



As far as I am concerned, Skin color doesn't matter, but *well defined facial features* does. I have seen lots of people who are dark and attractive. lol! Actually I was going to start another thread about a study done by Harvard Graduates on Online Dating websites.. and according to the results, White males and Middle Eastern females are the most desirable, and Indian Males and Black females are least desirable. But I don't want to stir a hornet nest here.. lol!


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Valiant_Soul said:


> *To Jinxed_Girl*
> 
> I have managed an outsourcing team of technical support and they did such an outstanding job, that the company extended their operations of two more departments to our company here. Do you know the overall satisfaction level of overseas customers who are treated by employees here in India? If not, simply check the amount of business the outsourcing industry generates and also its rate of growth.



What is the limit of outsourcing and is good for western job market?


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## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> White males and *Middle Eastern females* are the most desirable, and Indian Males and Black females are least desirable. But I don't want to stir a hornet nest here.. lol!



Unfortunately Pakistan is not in middle east but in Indian subcontinant, last time when I checked..........so, u being a Pakistani, my sympathy for you.

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## Valiant_Soul

jinxeD_girl said:


> As far as I am concerned, Skin color doesn't matter, but *well defined facial features* does. I have seen lots of people who are dark and attractive. lol!



Well, in that case, you must not discredit Indians as ugly.



> Actually I was going to start another thread about a study done by Harvard Graduates on Online Dating websites.. and according to the results, White males and Middle Eastern females are the most desirable, and Indian Males and Black females are least desirable. But I don't want to stir a hornet nest here.. lol!



May be, but it should not be the basis of disliking or making Indians appear inferior, isn't it?

BTW, this study cannot be the reflection of the entire world. I know many foreigners who have married "dark and ugly" Indians. Because beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

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## jinxeD_girl

xebex said:


> Unfortunately Pakistan is not in middle east but in Indian subcontinant, last time when I checked..........so, u being a Pakistani, my sympathy for you.



That still doesn't make "Indian females" as the LEAST desirable. Ironically, many americans consider Pakistan as part of middle-east. And the G-8 definition of Greater Middle East includes Pakistan as middle eastern country.

Greater Middle East - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pakistan doesn't lie entirely on Indian plate... geographically most of it is part of Iranian plateau or Eurasian plate.. lol! 

Anywayz, whether you consider Pakistani girlz as middle eastern or indian.. they are not the LEAST desirable..


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## jaunty

@ Valiant_Soul

Buddy, you don't have to be defensive here. Beauty is quite subjective. The girl has an opinion and this is not something you can change by arguing.


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## Valiant_Soul

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> What is the limit of outsourcing and is good for western job market?



Outsourcing is good as long as there is great difference between the currency values of the two countries and the amount of salary to be paid. That way, the company is able to provide cheaper service to its customer while maintaining the same quality of service. 

When companies outsource, they save on huge amount of money, hence they can create more business and hence in the long-term they would be able to produce more jobs for the home crowd. Remember that companies cannot outsource many of its critical operations - they will always remain with the native citizens.

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## Valiant_Soul

jaunty said:


> @ Valiant_Soul
> 
> Buddy, you don't have to be defensive here. Beauty is quite subjective. The girl has an opinion and this is not something you can change by arguing.



I am not trying to change her opinion about what she considers beautiful or not. I am trying to change her opinion that this should not be the basis of disliking Indians or consider them inferior, so much so that it is even hard to call them "brothers".


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## jinxeD_girl

Anywayz, here are the results :-

Online Dating Mysteries Revealed (Even the Politically Incorrect Ones)

Want to get an online date? Keep your messages short. 

*For men, whites are the most likely to get a response online; Indians the least likely. Among women, Middle Easterners garner the most responses; black women the fewest*

*Those are among the not-always-politically-correct findings unearthed by the statisticians at OkCupid, a free online dating site started by a group of Harvard graduates armed with math degrees. *

The 5-year-old site boasts 1 million active users -- comparable to Match.com and eHarmony, two services that require paid subscriptions. Like Match.com, OkCupid users can look at any profile they want -- something eHarmony doesn't allow subscribers to do. Like eHarmony, OkCupid's workhorse is a statistical algorithm driven by how users respond to a range of personal, political and religious questions. But unlike eHarmony, which bases questions on the founders' research, OkCupid takes the participatory approach adopted by YouTube and other Web 2.0 sites. Almost all of the questions are submitted by other users, who wind up answering an average of 233 of them. 

OkCupid also takes an extra step the other sites don't: sharing information about users' online dating behavior. Earlier this year, the site created a blog to post research, drawing on data from the site, a la Google. Here's a sampling of what the numbers show so far.

Keep Messages Short

The average guy on OkCupid gets one response for about every five messages he sends to different women. Factor in the effort it takes to tailor a message to a specific profile, and brevity is more efficient in landing a date. OkCupid's research suggests that the optimal message length for a guy is 200 characters, or roughly one minute of typing. 

For women, it doesn't matter. They get a 40 percent response rate no matter how much they type. Why? The company believes that guys -- not surprisingly -- put much more emphasis on a woman's picture. A woman doesn't need to worry as much about what she says, just that she gets on her potential date's radar. So why waste time? OkCupid recommends women write even shorter messages of about 50 characters when initiating contact.

Interestingly, when looking at same-sex contacts, women-to-women messaging patterns resemble men-to-women behavior, while men-to-men patterns are more consistent with women-to-men message behavior.

Not All E-mail Is Equal

OkCupid analyzed about 500,000 first-contact messages and found these to be among the best strategies for getting a response:

-- Be specific. Mention something in the profile of the person being contacted

-- Avoid net-speak like "ur," "r u," "B4," etc.

-- Don't compliment physical characteristics.

-- Act modest, especially men.
Your Race Matters

The numbers also show that attraction isn't color-blind. To wit: 

*-- Among males, white guys get the most frequent responses (29 percent of the time) and are least likely to respond (40 percent).*

*-- Indian men have the worst luck, getting responses only 20 percent of the time.*
*
-- Among females, black women are the most likely to write back to a guy (34 percent) but the least likely to get a response if they initiate contact (34 percent).*

*-- Middle Eastern women get responses almost half the time, the most of any ethnicity. And even though white guys are pickiest about whom they write back to, they're most likely to respond to Middle Eastern women (47 percent of the time versus an overall response rate of 40 percent). *

*-- Pretty much across the board, whites are viewed as the most attractive group. This is how different ethnicities answered the following question: "Not to be racist but which ethnicity do you find to be most attractive?"
*

http://img14.imageshack.us/i/1257977242554.gif/

Your Religion (or Lack Thereof) Matters, Too

Using the word "atheist" actually improves the chances of getting a response; invoking "god" leads to worse-than-average response rates.

-- Agnostics, atheists and Jews of both sexes have the highest match percentages across the site, i.e., they're most likely to find someone they're compatible with. Muslim men and women and Hindu men are the least compatible groups. Christians are in the middle of the pack.

-- Jewish men are more compatible than Muslim men with Muslim women. 

Some Other Interesting Results

Europeans are more open than Americans to acting out a rape fantasy with a partner. Within the U.S., Wyoming (of all places) and Nevada are the kinkiest states. 

-- West-coasters enjoy casual sex most; Midwesterners the least. 

-- People living in warmer states report higher levels of self-confidence. 

-- Zodiac signs have no bearing on compatibility.


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## jinxeD_girl

Sorry guyz!! The study is done by Harvard graduates armed with math degrees on a 5-year-old site with 1 million active users, and here is the link from AOL. You can't always be politically correct!

Online Dating Mysteries Revealed - AOL News


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## alirulesall123

jinxeD_girl said:


> That still doesn't make "Indian females" as the LEAST desirable. Ironically, many americans consider Pakistan as part of middle-east. And the G-8 definition of Greater Middle East includes Pakistan as middle eastern country.
> 
> Greater Middle East - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Pakistan doesn't lie entirely on Indian plate... geographically most of it is part of Iranian plateau or Eurasian plate.. lol!
> 
> Anywayz, whether you consider Pakistani girlz as middle eastern or indian.. they are not the LEAST desirable..



Another Arab wannabe eh? Sorry to break you're heart, but you're a desi from the Indian subcontinent, just like every other Pakistani and Indian in the World. And most americans are ignorant when it comes to the World, so it's not exactly a good idea to take what they assume as fact. 

Although I will agree, Pakistani girls are a lot hotter than Indian girls. But that's just my opinion, as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, is it not?


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## jinxeD_girl

alirulesall123 said:


> Another Arab wannabe eh? Sorry to break you're heart, but you're a desi from the Indian subcontinent, just like every other Pakistani and Indian in the World. And most americans are ignorant when it comes to the World, so it's not exactly a good idea to take what they assume as fact.
> 
> Although I will agree, Pakistani girls are a lot hotter than Indian girls. But that's just my opinion, as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, is it not?




It is not about being "Arab wanna be". 40% Pakistanis are NOT Indic... but of Iranic descent. Proof it wrong lol!


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## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ironically, many americans consider Pakistan as part of middle-east. And the G-8 definition of Greater Middle East includes Pakistan as middle eastern country.



Neither 'many americans' nor G8 consider is not necessarly the truth or fact; moreover, since the so called study was about middle east, no need to bend the reality by dragging in greater middle east here. Find any scientific article regarding geography and look up to see where Middle east is. sorry to bust ur bubble again.



jinxeD_girl said:


> That still doesn't make "Indian females" as the LEAST desirable.


Now, according to ur so called study, u r as good as an Indian female, which u dissed as less attractive on of your first ever posts in this forum. seems like your words are starting to biting you back after all. enjoy.

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## Gin ka Pakistan

alirulesall123 said:


> Another Arab wannabe eh? Sorry to break you're heart, but you're a desi from the Indian subcontinent, just like every other Pakistani and Indian in the World. And most americans are ignorant when it comes to the World, so it's not exactly a good idea to take what they assume as fact.
> 
> Although I will agree, Pakistani girls are a lot hotter than Indian girls. But that's just my opinion, as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, is it not?



Many in west take Pashtun and Afghans as Italians. Its true


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## jinxeD_girl

alirulesall123 said:


> Although I will agree, Pakistani girls are a lot hotter than Indian girls. But that's just my opinion, as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, is it not?



Thats what many Indian guyz told me in real life too.


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## jaunty

Valiant_Soul said:


> I am not trying to change her opinion about what she considers beautiful or not. I am trying to change her opinion that this should not be the basis of disliking Indians or consider them inferior, so much so that it is even hard to call them "brothers".



Ha ha go through some of her posts. You will start ignoring her and about considering Indians as inferiors, who cares . Don't give importance. I would rather be interested in achievements than physical beauty. Our "beautiful neighbours" haven't achieved anything that we ugly looking Indians haven't. Take any field. The ugly bengalis or south Indians have achieved much more than them. Ask them how many Nobel Laureates, great scientists do they have. Even in fields where beauty is somewhat needed like in cinema we are way ahead. We produce films, they watch our films, period.

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## jinxeD_girl

xebex said:


> Neither 'many americans' nor G8 consider is not necessarly the truth or fact; moreover, since the so called study was about middle east, no need to bend the reality by dragging in greater middle east here. Find any scientific article regarding geography and look up to see where Middle east is. sorry to bust ur bubble again.
> 
> 
> Now, according to ur so called study, u r as good as an Indian female, which u dissed as less attractive on of your first ever posts in this forum. seems like your words are starting to biting you back after all. enjoy.



I am not as good as your typical Indian female. What do people see when they visit Online Dating websites? Ofcourse YOUR pictures.. Pictures are worth 1 thousand words. Many Pakistanis of Iranic descent look NO different than Afghans or Iranians physically.. and that makes many Pakistani females as desirable as middle eastern females...

You can deny it as much as you want...!!


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## alirulesall123

jinxeD_girl said:


> It is not about being "Arab wanna be". 40% Pakistanis are NOT Indic... but of Iranic descent. Proof it wrong lol!



Are you retarded? You basically just admitted that most Pakistanis have direct Indian roots! 



> Thats what many Indian guyz told me in real life too.



Doesn't surprise me lol. Most Indian girls are pretty gross. But the good looking ones are REALLY pretty

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## jinxeD_girl

jaunty said:


> Ha ha go through some of her posts. You will start ignoring her and about considering Indians as inferiors, who cares . Don't give importance. I would rather be interested in achievements than physical beauty. Our "beautiful neighbours" haven't achieved anything that we ugly looking Indians haven't. Take any field. The ugly bengalis or south Indians have achieved much more than them. Ask them how many Nobel Laureates, great scientists do they have. Even in fields where beauty is somewhat needed like in cinema we are way ahead. We produce films, they watch our films, period.



I know Indians are smart, intelligent and I agree with it.. But aren't we talking about physical attractiveness here... ? Some races are more endowed with physical attractiveness as compared to others...


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Girls_of_Kandahar_in_2009.jpg from *wikipedia* page on *Pashtun people*
Pashtun people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Can any one say that she is Desi


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## Valiant_Soul

jinxeD_girl said:


> Thats what many Indian guyz told me in real life too.



So you talk to "ugly" Indians in real life, and they do not even know that you consider them inferior? That is neat.

BTW, how come you are so good looking and still wasting your time on a defense forum?

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## alirulesall123

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> Girls_of_Kandahar_in_2009.jpg from *wikipedia* page on *Pashtun people*
> Pashtun people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Can any one say that she is Desi



Nope, she is from Afghanistan. Not Desi. Pashtuns in Pakistan follow Desi culture, and have been fairly "indianized", so they count as Desi. NWFP was part of India even during British times, anyways.


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## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> I am not as good as your typical Indian female. What do people see when they visit Online Dating websites? Ofcourse YOUR pictures.. Pictures are worth 1 thousand words. Many Pakistanis of Iranic descent look NO different than Afghans or Iranians physically.. and that makes many Pakistani females as desirable as middle eastern females...
> 
> You can deny it as much as you want...!!



No mam, its your so called study that is denying ur statement. U simply cant sneak into the categary of middle east if u do, then alirulesall123 is right about the "Arab wannabe" tag. Middle east is middle east and u r not from middle east. Refer to the Harvard's study again lol.

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## Valiant_Soul

jinxeD_girl said:


> I know Indians are smart, intelligent and I agree with it.. But aren't we talking about physical attractiveness here... ? Some races are more endowed with physical attractiveness as compared to others...



There! The cause of your failed perception revealed. Indians do not belong to the same race of people.


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## jinxeD_girl

alirulesall123 said:


> Are you retarded? You basically just admitted that most Pakistanis have direct Indian roots!
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't surprise me lol. Most Indian girls are pretty gross. But the good looking ones are REALLY pretty



Liguistically yes.. Not racially...  Anywayz, I am getting sleepy now, it is bed time... We can continue with this later...


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## Gin ka Pakistan

alirulesall123 said:


> Nope, she is from Afghanistan. Not Desi. Pashtuns in Pakistan follow Desi culture, and have been fairly "indianized", so they count as Desi. NWFP was part of India even during British times, anyways.



Pashtuns in Pakistan follow Desi culture  lol man no they don't


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## jinxeD_girl

xebex said:


> No mam, its your so called study that is denying ur statement. U simply cant sneak into the categary of middle east if u do, then alirulesall123 is right about the "Arab wannabe" tag. Middle east is middle east and u r not from middle east. Refer to the Harvard's study again lol.



But we are not SURE, where did they fit "Pakistan" in that study. I will email the guy and ask him to give us more details.


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## jaunty

jinxeD_girl said:


> *I know Indians are smart, intelligent and I agree with it..* But aren't we talking about physical attractiveness here... ? Some races are more endowed with physical attractiveness as compared to others...




Great. That's what I care about. I agree that you are beautiful. Good for you.

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## alirulesall123

Valiant_Soul said:


> There! The cause of your failed perception revealed. Indians do not belong to the same race of people.



I know right, haha. There are like 400 trillion races inside of India 

Although personally I think that Priyanka Chopra is the most beautiful desi woman on this planet!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

gubbi said:


> I dont see any Pakistani Crescent and Star in those flags. Can you show me where exactly?



See and hear this


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## alirulesall123

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> Pashtuns in Pakistan follow Desi culture  lol man no they don't



Uh... Yeah they do. They speak Urdu, they think of fellow Pakistanis as their brothers, and they actually place emphasis on civility and literacy, unlike their brothers across the border. And btw, i'm pashtun.


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## jinxeD_girl

And alirulesall.. You admitted yourself in your previous post that Pakistani girls are much much hotter than Indian females..

Then what are we arguing about ??

Thanks for the compliment Ali!!


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## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> But we are not SURE, where did they fit "Pakistan" in that study. I will email the guy and ask him to give us more details.



so u werent even sure where you fit in that graph and claimed yourself as from middle east lmao. good luck gettin reply.XD

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## gubbi

jinxeD_girl said:


> White males and Middle Eastern females are the most desirable, and Indian Males and Black females are least desirable. But I don't want to stir a hornet nest here.. lol!



ROFL. Seriously?

Havent you heard the adage "once you go black you never come back!" One should broaden one's horizons.

Guess you might just be hibernating or have no idea what you are talking about. nuff said.


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## alirulesall123

jinxeD_girl said:


> And alirulesall.. You admitted yourself in your previous post that Pakistani girls are much much hotter than Indian females..
> 
> Then what are we arguing about ??
> 
> Thanks for the compliment Ali!!



Yes, that is true that Pakistani girls are way hotter, but that doesn't give you, or any other Pakistani girl the right to go around and flaunt it. 
After all, personality plays a big part in attraction, no? 



> Havent you heard the adage "once you go black you never come back!"



Eww man. I'm all for intteracial dating, but black girls are sort of...


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## jinxeD_girl

xebex said:


> so u werent even sure where you fit in that graph and claimed yourself as from middle east lmao. good luck gettin reply.XD



I never claimed I am from Middle East... what I claimed was that Indian males are considered LEAST attractive... Doesn't that study claims that ?

Now I have to email AOL... and ask where Pakistani MALES fit? That what I am worried about..

As I said, whether Indian or Middle Eastern, we Pakistani girlz are NOT least desirable..


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## Valiant_Soul

alirulesall123 said:


> I know right, haha. There are like 400 trillion races inside of India
> 
> Although personally I think that Priyanka Chopra is the most beautiful desi woman on this planet!



I generally don't count actresses as beautiful, until I can see them without makeup and retain the same opinion thereafter.


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## alirulesall123

Valiant_Soul said:


> I generally don't count actresses as beautiful, until I can see them without makeup and retain the same opinion thereafter.



That's true. Katrina Kaif looks pretty good without makeup though! Not sure about Chopra.


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## Valiant_Soul

jinxeD_girl said:


> As I said, whether Indian or Middle Eastern, we Pakistani girlz are NOT least desirable..



Oh boy! No certainly you are not. We here agree that at least you are not, does that makes you happy?


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## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> I never claimed I am from Middle East... what I claimed was that Indian males are considered *LEAST* attractive... *Doesn't that study claims that *?



No mam, it *DOESN'T*.

http://img14.imageshack.us/i/1257977242554.gif/

^^ look at the graph and analize it yourself if Indians are the "least" favored. Btw, you simply cant keep twisting the facts either.


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## gubbi

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> Can any one say that she is Desi



Ah hmmn yeah!!






I see similarities

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## alirulesall123

gubbi said:


> Ah hmmn yeah!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see similarities



The First one looks my mom, who happens to be pashtun!


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## gubbi

alirulesall123 said:


> Eww man. I'm all for intteracial dating, but black girls are sort of...



Tch tch tch, you my friend, have missed a lot in life. There are women with class and then there are women with CLASS. I am talking about the latter.

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## jinxeD_girl

xebex said:


> No mam, it *DOESN'T*.
> 
> http://img14.imageshack.us/i/1257977242554.gif/
> 
> ^^ look at the graph and analize it yourself if Indians are the "least" favored. Btw, you simply cant keep twisting the facts either.



You are interpreting the graph wrongly... That graph shows how people view other races... See the "orange" line... that is WHITES... The graph is showing most Indian males see WHITE FEMALES as the most attractive...


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## jinxeD_girl

That is what the study is claiming, that pretty much Whites are considered the most attractive group by all other races... (orange line)


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## gubbi

alirulesall123 said:


> The First one looks my mom, who happens to be pashtun!



Nice. Those pics are of Rakhee, a Bengali beauty, a renowned Bollywood actress.


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## alirulesall123

gubbi said:


> Tch tch tch, you my friend, have missed a lot in life. There are women with class and then there are women with CLASS. I am talking about the latter.



Well seeing as i'm only 15 I still have a while to go 

Although for now I'll stick to goris and desis


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## jinxeD_girl

gubbi said:


> Nice. Those pics are of Rakhee, a Bengali beauty, a renowned Bollywood actress.



The first one is Priya Rajvansh, a Punjabi.

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## jarnee

Windjammer said:


> For those who didn't get the title,
> 
> The "K" in Pakistan stands for Kashmir.



I thought Klashnikov


----------



## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> You are interpreting the graph wrongly... That graph shows how people view other races... See the "orange" line... that is WHITES... The graph is showing most Indian males see WHITE FEMALES as the most attractive...



You are still unable to analize the data from the graph that Indians are not the "LEAST" favored. take the 40% mark if u r having a hard time doing so.


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## gubbi

alirulesall123 said:


> Well seeing as i'm only 15 I still have a while to go
> 
> Although for now I'll stick to goris and desis



Well then kid, take this advice from a supposed seasoned 'playa' to heart - date women with substance (includes mental and physical health), not airheads! Skin color doesn't matter - you will realize that.


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## alirulesall123

jarnee said:


> I thought Klashnikov



That would be true if Pakistan was created in the 1970's 



> Well then kid, take this advice from a supposed seasoned 'playa' to heart - date women with substance (includes mental and physical health), not airheads! Skin color doesn't matter - you will realize that.



Will do, uncle-ji.


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## gubbi

jinxeD_girl said:


> The first one is Priya Rajvansh, a Punjabi.



Yup. You are right, my bad. post edited.


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## jinxeD_girl

Ok guyz.. enough trolling for today... before I start posting the pictures of Everyday Indian versus Pakistani girlz... and make you decide who is better looking... Moderators deleted one such thread started by ADT..

Can someone tell me who is Indian and who is Pakistani among these two ? I think everyone can..

http://img62.imageshack.us/i/indiangirl.jpg/

http://img443.imageshack.us/i/sidra.jpg/


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## alirulesall123

I'm pretty sure even most Indian guys would admit that the average Pakistani girl is better looking, but that's because the standard for beauty is lighter skin, thinner features, less hairy, etc. So it all comes down to what each person prefers, many of my South Indian friends prefer darker girls!


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## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ok guyz.. enough trolling for today... before I start posting the pictures of Everyday Indian versus Pakistani girlz... and make you decide who is better looking... Moderators deleted one such thread started by ADT..



And you have to do this for half a billion Indian gurls and 75 million Pakistani gurls of everyday life. Otherwise ur comparison wont be complete and will be mischievious.

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## jinxeD_girl

xebex said:


> And you have to do this for half a billion Indian gurls and 75 million Pakistani gurls of everyday life. Otherwise ur comparison wont be complete and will be mischievious.



I am asking for an honest answer... the pics I posted above choose which girlz are INDIAN GIRLS...


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## Gin ka Pakistan

I think beauty doesn't go with brain , to be a geek you have to be unattractive.

The blond may date the college football team player but marries a Doctor or a engineer.

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## jinxeD_girl

Who is bangladeshi and who is Pakistani among these girls?

http://img638.imageshack.us/i/bangladeshigirls.jpg/

http://img30.imageshack.us/i/karachigirls.jpg/


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## Valiant_Soul

We too need an Indian girl here, for this game to be fair.

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## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ok guyz.. enough trolling for today... before I start posting the pictures of Everyday Indian versus Pakistani girlz... and make you decide who is better looking... Moderators deleted one such thread started by ADT..
> 
> Can someone tell me who is Indian and who is Pakistani among these two ? I think everyone can..
> 
> http://img62.imageshack.us/i/indiangirl.jpg/
> 
> http://img443.imageshack.us/i/sidra.jpg/











how about this?

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## jinxeD_girl

xebex said:


> And you have to do this for half a billion Indian gurls and 75 million Pakistani gurls of everyday life. Otherwise ur comparison wont be complete and will be mischievious.



No dude.. we don't have too... It goes to law of Averages... I am sure there are many Pakistani girls who are dark or unattractive... there are many Iranians who are dark and unattractive..

But if you take 100 Pakistani girls versus 100 Indian girlz randomly, Pakistanis will always look better... 

People form their opinions perceptions from what they see in real life...


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## Gin ka Pakistan

^^^^^ ouch it hurts  (Post 210)

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## jinxeD_girl

I know a Punjabi Sikh girl from India... who is good looking and she was telling me when she tells people she is from "India", people tell her "you don't look Indian"... 

Getting the drift?


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## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> But if you take 100 Pakistani girls versus 100 Indian girlz randomly, Pakistanis will always look better...




Tell me what is your source for the random pics of common Indian and common Pakistani? good luck picking from imageshack.


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## xebex

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> ^^^^^ ouch it hurts  (Post 210)



yup, thatz what is she basically doing here mate. pickin some "random" pics from internet.


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## jinxeD_girl

And I know a girl from Iran who is very dark skinned... and she was telling me, people ask her... "Are you from India".

People form their opinions according to law of averages.. and what they are used to seeing from that particular country...

I hear this comment all the time that Bollywood actors don't look like everyday Indians.. they can easily pass off as Iranians, Afghans or Mediterraneans...


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## Gin ka Pakistan

xebex said:


> Tell me what is your source for the random pics of common Indian and common Pakistani? good luck picking from imageshack.


you guys can go on to Welcome to Flickr - Photo Sharing


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## gubbi

xebex said:


> Tell me what is your source for the random pics of common Indian and common Pakistani? good luck picking from imageshack.



Let her be. She's probably got a complex comparing herself with successful Indian women. We all know what that complex would be.
Either that, or another airhead!


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## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> I know a Punjabi Sikh girl from India... who is good looking and she was telling me when she tells people she is from "India", people tell her "you don't look Indian"...
> 
> Getting the drift?



May be they were expecting a much hotter one like Aiswarya Rai.


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## Valiant_Soul

gubbi said:


> Let her be. She's probably got a complex comparing herself with successful Indian women. We all know what that complex would be.
> Either that, or another airhead!



You should respect her sentiments. Girls have the right to be beautiful and arrogant.


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## alirulesall123

Pakistani on the right, Indian on the left.
I think this would be a good representation of the differences.

But beauty, in the end, is in the eye of the beholder.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

^^^ talk like a true player , be your wing man any time


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Valiant_Soul said:


> You should respect her sentiments. Girls have the right to be beautiful and arrogant.


talk like a true player , be your wing man any time


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## jinxeD_girl

If shown these two pictures to random public... and ask them .. who is Indian and who is Persian.. ofcourse they will never mistake Indian for Iranian.. now I am sure I dont have to point out who is Iranian.. 

http://img534.imageshack.us/i/tamilnadugirlsinhalfand.jpg/

http://img651.imageshack.us/i/irangirl11107.jpg/


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## Valiant_Soul

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> talk like a true player , be your wing man any time



No buddy, I am no player. It is my honest feeling. I believe in more rights for women and lesser responsibilities. Because they carry the most important one on their shoulder - that is bringing up the kids.

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## jinxeD_girl

xebex said:


> May be they were expecting a much hotter one like Aiswarya Rai.



Unless they have seen someone like Aishwariya Roy in real life... which most Americans including myself haven't!!


----------



## alirulesall123

jinxeD_girl said:


> If shown these two pictures to random public... and ask them .. who is Indian and who is Persian.. ofcourse they will never mistake Indian for Iranian.. now I am sure I dont have to point out who is Iranian..
> 
> http://img534.imageshack.us/i/tamilnadugirlsinhalfand.jpg/
> 
> http://img651.imageshack.us/i/irangirl11107.jpg/



There are Indians who look like Persians, and Persians who look like Indians. Why does it matter anyways? You already believe that most Indian girls aern't as good looking as Pakistani girls, or are you afraid of the competition or what?


----------



## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> If shown these two pictures to random public... and ask them .. who is Indian and who is Persian



Now you changed India- Pakistan to India- Persia huh?


----------



## jinxeD_girl

alirulesall123 said:


> There are Indians who look like Persians, and Persians who look like Indians. Why does it matter anyways? You already believe that most Indian girls aern't as good looking as Pakistani girls, or are you afraid of the competition or what?



Ok... Persian girlz are better looking than Pakistani girlz and Pakistani girlz are better looking than Indian girlz..

I am little afraid of competition from Iranian girlz (not that much though ), but I can easily win from most Indian girlz...


----------



## jinxeD_girl

xebex said:


> Now you changed India- Pakistan to India- Persia huh?



Yeah I was trying to make a point... as to what people generally associate with each country.. Yeah Alirules I know 0.01% Indians look like Persians and mostly you find them in Bollywood!!


----------



## gubbi

Valiant_Soul said:


> No buddy, I am no player. It is my honest feeling. I believe in more rights for women and lesser responsibilities. Because they carry the most important one on their shoulder - that is bringing up the kids.



Now now, we dont want kids to grow up prejudiced because of their parents' skewed views now, do we?

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## gubbi

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ok... Persian girlz are better looking than Pakistani girlz and Pakistani girlz are better looking than Indian girlz..
> 
> I am little afraid of competition from Iranian girlz (not that much though ), but I can easily win from most Indian girlz...



LOL. Airhead!! I was right all along.

Oh boy!


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Ok Ali make my day and tell me which girls among these is Indian and which one is Pakistani... as I have to go to bed real soon... 

http://img687.imageshack.us/i/pakigirlsssssss.jpg/

http://img46.imageshack.us/i/meenalindiangirlmodel.jpg/


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## alirulesall123

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ok... Persian girlz are better looking than Pakistani girlz



That's true, now that you mention it. 






View attachment 454d73958e953c5cd1755452607c0c9e.jpg







EDIT: and to answer you're question, the one on the top is Pakistani.


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## S.U.R.B.

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ok Ali make my day and tell me which girls among these is Indian and which one is Pakistani... as I have to go to bed real soon...
> 
> http://img687.imageshack.us/i/pakigirlsssssss.jpg/
> 
> http://img46.imageshack.us/i/meenalindiangirlmodel.jpg/



The first one pakistani and the second one is the indian.


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## Valiant_Soul

S.U.R.B. said:


> The first one pakistani and the second one is the indian.



I think the second one is Sri Lankan. And the first one is Iranian.


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Here is another Iranian beauty .. No wonder middle eastern females are MOST desirable... 

http://img13.imageshack.us/i/iranianbeauty.jpg/


----------



## S.U.R.B.

Valiant_Soul said:


> I think the second one is Sri Lankan.



Well there were only two options...indian or Pakistani


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Thank you Ali... I have to go to bed now..


----------



## alirulesall123

jinxeD_girl said:


> Here is another Iranian beauty .. No wonder middle eastern females are MOST desirable...
> 
> http://img13.imageshack.us/i/iranianbeauty.jpg/



You can't judge one's nation on the basis of celebrities. Claudi Lynx is known to use like 7 pounds of makeup anways.

EDIT: lol see ya, go to bed then


----------



## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ok Ali make my day and tell me which girls among these is Indian and which one is Pakistani... as I have to go to bed real soon...
> 
> http://img687.imageshack.us/i/pakigirlsssssss.jpg/
> 
> http://img46.imageshack.us/i/meenalindiangirlmodel.jpg/



well, duh...........everybody know saree is India's dress, ms. obvious.


----------



## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> Here is another Iranian beauty .. No wonder middle eastern females are MOST desirable...
> 
> http://img13.imageshack.us/i/iranianbeauty.jpg/



may be but u still are not middle eastern or white, admit it. U belongs to south asia. as good as Indian females.


----------



## xebex

what up guys, dont we all have sleep tonight lol. its 2:09 am here.


----------



## Gin ka Pakistan

xebex said:


> what up guys, dont we all have sleep tonight lol. its 2:09 am here.



add one more hour for me  3:09 here


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## gubbi

xebex said:


> may be but u still are not middle eastern or white, admit it. U belongs to south asia. as good as Indian females.



Geez Xebex. Let that airhead be. She's just another confused desi with issues and complexes about her identity and looks. And hence all the trouble to post such images of pseudo comparison. This kind of behavior somehow, in her mind, justifies and satisfies her need to feel superior to her peers. 

Wow, the thread got derailed from Kashmir to "comparison of the level of melanin expression in women of South Asian descent and its implications on their self-esteem and social standing among peers"!!

ps: I should write a research paper on such a topic. Will that make it to Nature or Science?

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## jinxeD_girl

Ok I brushed my teeth and it is time for bed.. But before I go to bed I have to post the pics of South Indian Hotties who work with us and look like this... For sho beauty is in the eyes of beholder... aren't they HOT? 

http://img43.imageshack.us/i/indiaq.jpg/

I think the topic was about Indian males... and i ended up posting pics of Indian females versus Pakistani females... 

I will post Indian male hotties tomorrow.. Good night guyz..


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## Windjammer

jarnee said:


> I thought Klashnikov



That's incredible considering Kasab is on every Indian's mind.


----------



## Jade

jinxeD_girl said:


> No dude.. we don't have too... It goes to law of Averages... I am sure there are many Pakistani girls who are dark or unattractive... there are many Iranians who are dark and unattractive..
> 
> But if you take 100 Pakistani girls versus 100 Indian girlz randomly, Pakistanis will always look better...
> 
> People form their opinions perceptions from what they see in real life...



Although I don&#8217;t have much knowledge on Islam, Pakistani members in this forum say they are proud of Islam quoting that Islam doesn&#8217;t discriminate people based on race, region, or looks, etc etc..&#8230; If this is not racism than what is?. Any way what is so great about race or looks. God has created us all equal and all of the Gods creation is beautifully. If you ask me personally, I would say the ugliest creation of God is us humans. If we go by you definition of beauty, most of us wouldn&#8217;t consider Jinnah, Gandhi, Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela to be beautiful, but see what they done for their people. That&#8217;s what I call beauty

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## Abhiras

*Let talk statically guys ::*

*1. Miss World:*

*India ranks number 1 in the world with the total of 5 miss world titles *

best performance by counrty :


Code:


titles    counrtiey  
5 	[B]India[/B] and Venezuela
4 	United Kingdom
3 	Iceland, Jamaica and Sweden
2 	Argentina, Australia, Austria, Netherlands, Russia, South Africa and United States
1 	Bermuda, Brazil, China, Czech Republic, Dominican Republic, Egypt, Finland, France, Germany, Gibraltar, Greece, Grenada, Guam, Ireland, Israel, Nigeria, Poland, Puerto Rico, Trinidad and Tobago and Turkey









*Miss Universe:*
*india has won 2 miss unverse titles	1 runner-up 1 second runner up* and is among top 10 best performing nations








source: Wikipedia


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> *Let talk statistically guys ::*



Abhiras,


Pakistan and many other Muslim countries don't take part in Miss World and Miss Universe contests... And as I said before there is no correlation between the number of models/miss worlds produced by a country to the general attractiveness of people of that country.. The fact is even before the partition of India, people of Northwestern States were generally considered more attractive than the rest of India.. 

You want the statistics...? I will post the statistics of Bollywood soon... and see how your Film Industry have been traditionally dominated by Punjabis.. followed by Pathans. You can't change the facts...

*In India Punjabis represent only 3% of Indian population and are overly represented in Bollywood*, while in Pakistan they are the dominant group. Many of the Punjabis and Pushtuns who are considered LEGENDS in Indian Film Industry have their roots in present day Pakistan.. Now let us make the list and you will see how many Punjabis are there in Bollywood...


----------



## Iggy

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ok I brushed my teeth and it is time for bed.. But before I go to bed I have to post the pics of South Indian Hotties who work with us and look like this... For sho beauty is in the eyes of beholder... aren't they HOT?
> 
> http://img43.imageshack.us/i/indiaq.jpg/
> 
> I think the topic was about Indian males... and i ended up posting pics of Indian females versus Pakistani females...
> 
> I will post Indian male hotties tomorrow.. Good night guyz..



Well you can count me like one of the Hotties of South India just like this snaps.but hey we also got girlfriends and loved by some one..surprised huh??

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## Iggy

Windjammer said:


> That's incredible considering Kasab is on every Indian's mind.



Well that K is also now in India

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## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras, Now let us talk about Statistics of Bollywood since 1940's :-

Suraiya Jamal Sheikh

Legendary Singer and Actress of Bollywood from 1940s/1950s. Suraiya was born in Gujranwala, Punjab, (which is in Pakistan since 1947), and was the only child of her parents. Legendary Hollywood Actor Gregory Peck especially came from U.S.A to meet her 

http://img28.imageshack.us/i/suraiya5.jpg/

http://img85.imageshack.us/i/grpeck.jpg/


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## jinxeD_girl

Madhubala

*Also known as the Venus of Bollywood*... Usually regarded as the MOST beautiful actress to ever grace Indian Cinema.. 

Madhubala was born as Mumtaz Begum Jehan Dehlavi in New Delhi, India on 14 February 1933 in a Muslim family. She was the fifth child among eleven children of a conservative* Pushtun couple.
*

http://img517.imageshack.us/i/madhubala.jpg/


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Geeta Bali

Bali was born in a Mohyal family in pre-partition Punjab as Harkirtan Kaur, a Sikh. Her family moved to Bombay and were living in near poverty when she started to get breaks in films.


http://img294.imageshack.us/i/geetacover.jpg/


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## jinxeD_girl

Dilip Kumar

Arguably, considered the greatest actor of Indian Cinema... Dilip Kumar was born Muhammad Yusuf Khan at Mohallah Khudadad, on the back of *Qissa Khwani Bazaar in Peshawar, North West Frontier Province, British India (part of Pakistan since 1947). *

http://img704.imageshack.us/i/dilipkumar.jpg/

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## jinxeD_girl

Begum Para


Popular Indian actress of the Bollywood from 1950s, She was the only Indian actress whose pictures were published in Prestigious LIFE MAGAZINE. Her family was from Jallandhar, PUNJAB
http://img402.imageshack.us/i/begumpara.jpg/


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## jinxeD_girl

Dev Anand

Dev Anand is considered a Legend, no need to introduce him...

Dev was born Dharam Dev kundan lal Pishorimal Anand in Gurdaspur district in undivided Punjab to well-to-do advocate Pishorimal Anand. He graduated in English literature from the Government College, Lahore (now in Pakistan). 

http://img693.imageshack.us/i/devanand.jpg/


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## Gin ka Pakistan

jinxeD_girl said:


> Thank you Ali... I have to go to bed now..



So u had good sleep , now fresh


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## jinxeD_girl

There are like dozens and dozens of Indian actors and actresses who are PUNJABIS (many of them who have their roots in Pakistan). Bollywood have always been dominated by PUNJABIS, followed by PUSHTUNS... Only, in recent years, people from other states have significantly started to show up in Bollywood... I don't have time to post the pictures and profile of each and every PUNJABI IN BOLLYWOOD

Believe me, it wilL take me WHOLE DAY TO DO THAT... HERE ARE SOME OTHER PUNJABIS :-

Dharmendra, Raj Kapoor (hindu khatri Punjabi), Celina Jeitley (Half Pashtoon/Half punjabi), Juhi Chawla, Bindu, Saira Bano, Vinod Khanna, Rajesh Khanna, Shammi Kapoor, Bindu, Lara Dutta (Miss Universe), Priyanka Chopra (Half Punjabi, Half Tamilian, another Miss World), Shahsi Kapoor, Anil Kapoor, Hrithik Roshan, Akshay Kumar, Rakesh Roshan, Harman Baweja, Rahul Khanna, Akshay Khanna, Twinkle Khanna... There are so manyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy Punjabis... that I can never make a complete list of them..

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## jinxeD_girl

Rajesh Khanna and Suraiya Jamal Sheikh were the only two actors/actresses who used to cause traffic jams during their heydays... Both Punjabis!!


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## Valiant_Soul

jinxeD_girl said:


> Rajesh Khanna and Suraiya Jamal Sheikh were the only two actors/actresses who used to cause traffic jams during their heydays... Both Punjabis!!



What about Amitabh Bachchan, Mithun, Rajnikanth, Hema Malini, Aishwarya Rai, Waheeda Rehman, Rekha....(None of them of Punjabi root)

Are you going to count them as well?

BTW, it seems you know some Indians too well than many Indians, indeed.


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Valiant_Soul said:


> What about Amitabh Bachchan, Mithun, Rajnikanth, Hema Malini, Aishwarya Rai, Waheeda Rehman, Rekha....(None of them of Punjabi root)
> 
> Are you going to count them as well?
> 
> BTW, it seems you know some Indians too well than many Indians, indeed.



Amitabh Bachan is Punjabi... Born in Allahabad, Uttar Pradesh, Amitabh Bachchan hails from a Hindu-Sikh family. His father, Dr. Harivansh Rai Bachchan was a well-known Hindi poet, while his mother, Teji Bachchan was a Sikh-Punjabi from Faisalabad (now in Pakistan).


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Valiant_Soul said:


> What about Amitabh Bachchan, Mithun, Rajnikanth, Hema Malini, Aishwarya Rai, Waheeda Rehman, Rekha....(None of them of Punjabi root)
> 
> Are you going to count them as well?
> 
> BTW, it seems you know some Indians too well than many Indians, indeed.



Yes, but compared to other states Punjabis only make 3&#37; of Indian Population.. and yet they dominate Bollywood...

I haven't started on Lollywood.. which is again dominated by Punjabis.. but then in Pakistan Punjabis make up the majority.. So no need to bring beautiful Pakistani actresses from 1940s, 1950s and 1960s in this discussion


----------



## Hyde

why how comes bollywood industry came in this thread. The first few pages were about Occupied Kashmir if i am not wrong?


----------



## Valiant_Soul

jinxeD_girl said:


> Amitabh Bachan is Punjabi... Born in Allahabad, Uttar Pradesh, Amitabh Bachchan hails from a Hindu-Sikh family. His father, Dr. Harivansh Rai Bachchan was a well-known Hindi poet, while his mother, Teji Bachchan was a Sikh-Punjabi from Faisalabad (now in Pakistan).



Okay, you simply cannot be defeated in this argument. But I for sure know that you do not need to be a Punjabi to be good looking, for I am a living example of that. And I also observe people around me who are so good looking, yet not necessarily hail from those "higher" regions.  

That is why I suggested that you visit India and then make any conclusions.


----------



## Gin ka Pakistan

Zaki said:


> why how comes bollywood industry came in this thread. The first few pages were about Occupied Kashmir if i am not wrong?



Its a open question so we can make K, what ever.


----------



## xenon

This thread is getting so interesting .. K to Bollywood ... next what ...

Bring it on Jinxed Girl .


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## jinxeD_girl

Here are some more Punjabis :-

Raj Babbar, Priya Rajvansh, Naseem Pari Chehra (popular actress of the 40s, She is the mom of Saira Bano and was given the official title of "Pari Chehra" meaning fairy face), Poonam Dhillion, Premnath, Bina Roy, Rajendra Kumar, Aaho Chashm Raagini (another actress of the 40s who was given the title of "Aaho Chasm")...

Punjabis, Punjabis everywhere... lol!

Oh! I am so proud to be a PUNJABI! FEELS SO GOOD! THAT WE DOMINATE LOLLYWOOD AND BOLLYWOOD! LOL!


----------



## Windjammer

seiko said:


> Well that K is also in now in India



You mean you are just holding on to him much like Kashmir & Khalistan

But what about lacking the Big K of knowledge to address these issues.


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Valiant_Soul said:


> Okay, you simply cannot be defeated in this argument. But I for sure know that you do not need to be a Punjabi to be good looking, for I am a living example of that. And I also observe people around me who are so good looking, yet not necessarily hail from those "higher" regions.
> 
> That is why I suggested that you visit India and then make any conclusions.



I haven't seen you yet...


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Oh I forgot, Sunil Dutt, Amrita Arora, Jeetendra, Sunny Deol, Bobby Deol, Abhishek Bachan... the list never ends..


----------



## Hyde

jinxeD_girl said:


> Oh I forgot, Sunil Dutt, Amrita Arora, Jeetendra, Sunny Deol, Bobby Deol, Abhishek Bachan... the list never ends..



if this thread is about Bollywood actors and actresses

don't forget Divya Bharti

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## xebex

Windjammer said:


> You mean you are just holding on to him much like Kashmir & Khalistan
> 
> But what about lacking the Big K of knowledge to address these issues.



well we have lot of K is in India like Kerala, Karnataka, etc and Kashmir is just one of them. But, I am still not sure whatz the K in Pakistan stands for? Khyber pass??


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Zaki said:


> if this thread is about Bollywood actors and actresses
> 
> don't forget Divya Bharti



Also dont forget Ranbir Kapoor (upcoming superstar) and his Mom Neetu Singh (another Punjabi)...

I am laughing so much...


----------



## Justin Joseph

Windjammer said:


> For those who didn't get the title,
> 
> The "K" in Pakistan stands for Kashmir.



No, "K" stands for Karachi.

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## jinxeD_girl

Zaki said:


> if this thread is about Bollywood actors and actresses
> 
> don't forget Divya Bharti



Oh Diyva Bharti is NOT Punjabi, I am only keeping track of Punjabis in Bollywood.


----------



## Hyde

jinxeD_girl said:


> Oh Diyva Bharti is NOT Punjabi, I am only keeping track of Punjabis in Bollywood.



sorry i had no clue what you guyz are talking about. All i know is you peoples are posting pictures of bollywood actors/actresses

is Dilip Kumar Punjabi? that you posted his picture before?


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Zaki said:


> sorry i had no clue what you guyz are talking about. All i know is you peoples are posting pictures of bollywood actors/actresses
> 
> is Dilip Kumar Punjabi? that you posted his picture before?



No Pathan from NWFP... well you have to go past several pages to see what we are talking about....


----------



## Hyde

jinxeD_girl said:


> No Pathan from NWFP... well you have to go past several pages to see what we are talking about....



oh naa kuriye

you tell me whats going on here


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Zaki said:


> oh naa kuriye
> 
> you tell me whats going on here



Basically, Pakistanis look better than Indians on average, Many Bollywood stars since 1940s were Punjabis.. and many other topics...

Some of the statements above are facts, some are just subjective...

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## Hyde

jinxeD_girl said:


> Basically, Pakistani look better than Indians on average, Many Bollywood stars since 1940s were Punjabis.. and many other topics...
> 
> Some of the statements above are facts, some are just subjective...



thanks but what can i post here now?

Dilip Kumar was not punjabi and you posted his picture

Divya bharti is also not punjabi and you had objections 

No fair no fair

i will read few last pages or will come back in this thread after you guyz make few more pages. So that i can understand whats going on

Bye for now


----------



## Iggy

xebex said:


> well we have lot of K is in India like Kerala, Karnataka, etc and Kashmir is just one of them. But, I am still not sure whatz the K in Pakistan stands for? Khyber pass??



lolz may be he will think there is sepretists movement here in Kerala and Karnataka too..and he will posts you tube pictures too to support him claim


----------



## Valiant_Soul

jinxeD_girl said:


> I haven't seen you yet...



This is how I look, well almost.

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## jinxeD_girl

Zaki said:


> thanks but what can i post here now?
> 
> Dilip Kumar was not punjabi and you posted his picture
> 
> Divya bharti is also not punjabi and you had objections
> 
> No fair no fair
> 
> i will read few last pages or will come back in this thread after you guyz make few more pages. So that i can understand whats going on
> 
> Bye for now



I am posting the pictures of Punjabis (whether from India or Pakistan) and Pushtun actors/actresses whose roots were in NWFP... You are free to post whatever you want... I have to include one Sindhi actress too...

Sadhana 

Sindhi Hindu from Karachi, Pakistan... The Indian Audrey Hepburn...

http://img38.imageshack.us/i/sadhana.jpg/

Pakistan should start claiming its people back!!

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## jinxeD_girl

Valiant_Soul said:


> This is how I look, well almost.



Ok then you are good looking if thats what YOU really look like! Who is he?


----------



## Gin ka Pakistan

^^^^Bad girl


----------



## jinxeD_girl

^^^^^^^^


----------



## Gin ka Pakistan

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ok then you are good looking if thats what YOU really look like! Who is he?


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Me and my friends are laughing so much that I spilled my pepsi.. I will be back later...


----------



## Iggy

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ok then you are good looking if thats what YOU really look like! Who is he?



Milind Soman..famous model of India..


----------



## Valiant_Soul

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ok then you are good looking if thats what YOU really look like! Who is he?



He certainly is not Punjabi. I will leave it for some other interested members here to post pictures of good looking people who are not Punjabis. 

BTW, he is Milind Soman - Indian model and actor.


----------



## Gin ka Pakistan

seiko said:


> Yupz Jinnah should have fight for a seperate country for the fair looking guys



All Muslims of subcontinent are fair from the heart and its the heart I see.

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## Iggy

xebex said:


> I even wonder how Pakistani members here can tolerate such statements.



lolz why are you worrying??she is talking about Pakistani people now


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## jinxeD_girl

xebex said:


> I even wonder how Pakistani members here can tolerate such statements.



They can deal with the bitter truth... I have been to Karachi...  At worst, they will ban me and close this thread... 

Anywayz, I really don't have time to post the pictures of people from extreme North Western States i.e. Punjab, Kashmir and NWFP... I think you guyz got my point...


----------



## Iggy

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> All Muslims of subcontinent are fair from the heart and its the heart I see.



brother why only Muslims??..how many Hindus and Christian people heart do you see??and also its not mine its her opinion that you guys got all the ugly Muslims from India ..


----------



## jinxeD_girl

xebex said:


> I even wonder how Pakistani members here can tolerate such statements.



I am muslim, but not religious  So, I don't have time for the Muslim brotherhood... 

But i am all for brotherhood between Kashmiris, Punjabis and people from NWFP..


----------



## jinxeD_girl

I think you guyz never met the real Kashmiris (whether Muslims or Kashmiri Pandit Hindus)... they are as arrogant as Punjabis... and Pashtuns too.. check Afghan forums and see how they flaunt their looks...


----------



## Iggy

jinxeD_girl said:


> They can deal with the bitter truth... I have been to Karachi...  At worst, they will ban me and close this thread...
> 
> Anywayz, I really don't have time to post the pictures of people from extreme North Western States i.e. Punjab, Kashmir and NWFP... I think you guyz got my point...



Keep going gal..lets get back to south Indian hotties ,..i love to hear the large wisdom of yours.. i dont think you will last tomorrow so do as much damage as you can


----------



## Gin ka Pakistan

seiko said:


> brother why only Muslims??..how many Hindus and Christian people heart do you see??and also its not mine its her opinion that you guys got all the ugly Muslims from India ..



We got people with brains from India and their intelligence make them beautiful.


----------



## jinxeD_girl

seiko said:


> Keep going gal..lets get back to south Indian hotties ,..i love to hear the large wisdom of yours.. i dont think you will last tomorrow so do as much damage as you can



Why don't you post some pictures of Good looking South Indian Hottie Men... not the models.. but everyday men.. Me and my friends want to see... Each one of us want to see some south indian hotties... I am dying to see them..


----------



## Hyde

did you post Shahrukh Khan's picture? his dad too is from Peshawar right?


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> We got people with brains from India and their intelligence make them beautiful.



I ADMITTED TO their intelligence and brains.. but the topic is about physical attractiveness...


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Zaki said:


> did you post Shahrukh Khan's picture? his dad too is from Peshawar right?



I told them before, there are so many of them.. that I dont have time to post the pictures of each and every one of them...


----------



## jinxeD_girl

I will be sitting here all day posting the pictures of Punjabis and Pathans from Bollywood and Lollywood and it consumes time..


----------



## Iggy

jinxeD_girl said:


> Why don't you post some pictures of Good looking South Indian Hottie Men... not the models.. but everyday men.. Me and my friends want to see... Each one of us want to see some south indian hotties... I am dying to see them..



I said hotties in a fun way..actually we are decendants of Asuras the bad and black people of Puranas...no hotties here..only blackies


----------



## Awesome

jinxeD_girl said:


> Isn't it ironic that during partition... we sent all the good looking Hindu/Sikhs from Punjab and NWFP to India and in return we got ugly looking Indian Muslims from U.P., Bihar etc...


Keep your racism off this forum!

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## xebex

she was reported to Asim bhai for her assault on Pakistanis for "ugly lookin Indian muslims in return druing partitian" statement. Its a shame that an assault on Pakistanis needed to be reported by an Indian.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

seiko said:


> brother why only Muslims??..how many Hindus and Christian people heart do you see??and also its not mine its her opinion that you guys got all the ugly Muslims from India ..



We got people with brains from India and their intelligence makes them beautiful.

We all are creation of all mighty force so when we make fun of his creation we make sin. 

Sorry seiko all humans are fair from the heart.

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## jinxeD_girl

Ok guyz I really had a very good time!!  Thanks for providing so much entertainment.. 


Kashmir + Punjab + NWFP = Zindabaad!! 

We are sorry if we broke the hearts of many on this forum by claiming that Pathans, Punjabis and Kashmiris are good looking.. 

I know sooner or later I will be banned from this forum for my arrogant views.. so it is better I leave this forum with full dignity... 


CIAO


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## Hyde

xebex said:


> she was reported to Asim bhai for her assault on Pakistanis for "ugly lookin Indian muslims in return druing partitian" statement. Its a shame that an assault on Pakistanis needed to be reported by an Indian.



take her lightly yaar. She does not indulge herself into serious debates. She is a kind of girl who likes talking about Actors/Actresses, Casts, Languages, cultures etc. She never involved herself into Indo-Pak flaming threads

Have some mercy on her  her past record suggests she did not intend to make racist post  every human being makes mistakes


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Some time in fun we do cross limits ...... which is wrong


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## Iggy

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ok guyz I really had a very good time!!  Thanks for providing so much entertainment..
> 
> 
> Kashmir + Punjab + NWFP = Zindabaad!!
> 
> We are sorry if we broke the hearts of many on this forum by claiming that Pathans, Punjabis and Kashmiris are good looking..
> 
> I know sooner or later I will be banned from this forum for my arrogant views.. so it is better I leave this forum with full dignity...
> 
> 
> CIAO



tatazz  bye bye  cant say we miss you because we wont..


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## Windjammer

xebex said:


> well we have lot of K is in India like Kerala, Karnataka, etc and Kashmir is just one of them. But, I am still not sure whatz the K in Pakistan stands for? Khyber pass??



Even in Khyber Pass, the banner displayed read,

"Kashmir Baney Ga Pakistan"


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## Awesome

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ok guyz I really had a very good time!!  Thanks for providing so much entertainment..
> 
> 
> Kashmir + Punjab + NWFP = Zindabaad!!
> 
> We are sorry if we broke the hearts of many on this forum by claiming that Pathans, Punjabis and Kashmiris are good looking..
> 
> I know sooner or later I will be banned from this forum for my arrogant views.. so it is better I leave this forum with full dignity...
> 
> 
> CIAO


There is nothing fun about it. You're just coming off as a rude obnoxious person who looks for cheap scores. Seriously are our problems with India as petty as dark skins? Don't be rude, talk about real issues and serve Pakistan in ways that matter.

About beauty. You'd do well to remember that Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I mean would you go up to people in real life and tell them "Gosh you're so ugly?" Then why do it here? Why reduce the quality of our forum for a few laughs? Cut this out, its the last I'll have around here.


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## Iggy

Windjammer said:


> Even in Khyber Pass, the banner displayed read,
> 
> "Kashmir Baney Ga Pakistan"



That banner was there from 1948 and will be there till the world ends ..dont worry you can have the banner and we will have Kashmir

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## Windjammer

seiko said:


> That banner was there from 1948 and will be there till the world ends ..dont worry you can have the banner and we will have Kashmir



History is witness that no freedom movement has been put down with sheer brute power, a little spark when ignites, it can burn the house down. Kashmir sooner than later will be handed on a platter and the weekend warriors too embarrassed to eat their words will disappear into oblivion.


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## Iggy

Windjammer said:


> History is witness that no freedom movement has been put down with sheer brute power, a little spark when ignites, it can burn the house down. Kashmir sooner than later will be handed on a platter and the weekend warriors too embarrassed to eat their words will disappear into oblivion.



And the wet dream continues ..

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## Windjammer

seiko said:


> And the wet dream continues ..



And sleeping on the wet patch is keeping you awake.


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## jinxeD_girl

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> Some time in fun we do cross limits ...... which is wrong



Ok Gin Ka Pakistan, You are on my friend's list and I am sorry if i crossed the limits...


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## jinxeD_girl

Gin ka Pakistan,

I liked your avatar picture before this one better, you looked cuter in that one...


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## jinxeD_girl

seiko said:


> tatazz  bye bye  cant say we miss you because we wont..



Some Pakistani member sent me a private message and I had to come back..


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## jinxeD_girl

Asim Aquil said:


> There is nothing fun about it. You're just coming off as a rude obnoxious person who looks for cheap scores. Seriously are our problems with India as petty as dark skins? Don't be rude, talk about real issues and serve Pakistan in ways that matter.
> 
> About beauty. You'd do well to remember that Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I mean would you go up to people in real life and tell them "Gosh you're so ugly?" Then why do it here? Why reduce the quality of our forum for a few laughs? Cut this out, its the last I'll have around here.



Ok Sorry Asim Aquil..  I will try to be a sober girl from now on...


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## jinxeD_girl

Anywayz, going back to topic...

I am coming back from a party at one of my Kashmiri friend's house.. and I showed her this forum.. 

She was saying it is a pity how Indians and Pakistanis are fighting for Kashmir without even involving poor Kashmiris in this discussion. Most Kashmiris want independent Kashmir and they dont want to be either with India and Pakistan...

I wish someone would respect their opinion and let Kashmiris live in peace and let them determine their own future...


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## jinxeD_girl

Zaki said:


> take her lightly yaar. She does not indulge herself into serious debates. She is a kind of girl who likes talking about Actors/Actresses, Casts, Languages, cultures etc. She never involved herself into Indo-Pak flaming threads
> 
> Have some mercy on her  her past record suggests she did not intend to make racist post  every human being makes mistakes



Thank you for your support... some things remain subjective and some things are facts... and I can post facts on this forum.. right?

*Fact *- Bollywood have been always dominated by Punjabis and they are overly represented in Bollywood considering their 3&#37; population...


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## Iggy

jinxeD_girl said:


> Some Pakistani member sent me a private message and I had to come back..



feels good to be a gal huh?


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## jinxeD_girl

Valiant_Soul said:


> He certainly is not Punjabi. I will leave it for some other interested members here to post pictures of good looking people who are not Punjabis.
> 
> BTW, he is Milind Soman - Indian model and actor.



Ok anywayz, I have to say sorry to you too... I was pretty harsh with South Indians... but not even once you lost your temper... Thats really commendable...


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## Iggy

Windjammer said:


> And sleeping on the wet patch is keeping you awake.



Nice playing with words..anything else to contribute other than this mindless ramblings??

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## jinxeD_girl

Valiant_Soul said:


> This is how I look, well almost.



He is good looking but Akshay Kumar and Hrithik Roshan are more handsome and cuter .. (in my opinion)  

http://img514.imageshack.us/i/akshaykumar.jpg/

http://img710.imageshack.us/i/hrithikroshanwallpaper.jpg/


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## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> History is witness that no freedom movement has been put down with sheer brute power, a little spark when ignites, it can burn the house down. Kashmir sooner than later will be handed on a platter and the weekend warriors too embarrassed to eat their words will disappear into oblivion.



Yeah .. Yeah .. Yeah.. Lets talk when that happens.. Till then lets deal in the reality.. Shall we??

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## jinxeD_girl

Valiant_Soul said:


> So you talk to "ugly" Indians in real life, and they do not even know that you consider them inferior? That is neat.
> 
> BTW, how come you are so good looking and still wasting your time on a defense forum?



We have to talk with Indians in real life at workplace for work purposes, now that you mentioned it..

What being good looking has anything to do with spending time at defence forum.. Minnesota is one of the coldest states... let the weather warm up.. and you will see me disappear from this forum like a butterfly (Although I have to admit this forum is kinda addicting )

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## Gin ka Pakistan

jinxeD_girl said:


> Gin ka Pakistan,
> 
> I liked your avatar picture before this one better, you looked cuter in that one...



This pic reminds me of my school days .


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## Valiant_Soul

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ok anywayz, I have to say sorry to you too... I was pretty harsh with South Indians... but not even once you lost your temper... Thats really commendable...



I just wanted to make a simple change in your approach. Looks and skin color should not be the basis of disliking or considering someone inferior. And I am not a south Indian, I am a north Indian. Not a Punjabi, but still good looking, and I tell you for sure there are innumerable examples of good-looking non-Punjabis in India. You can come to India and see for yourself. At least, you can trust me so much when I say that?

P.S. Everything I said to you was more in a jocular manner, I hope you did not took any of my words to heart. 

Be human, love human!


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## Valiant_Soul

jinxeD_girl said:


> He is good looking but Akshay Kumar and Hrithik Roshan are more handsome and cuter .. (in my opinion)



That is your opinion, in my opinion he is way better than these two. Watch these:


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## Windjammer

seiko said:


> Nice playing with words..anything else to contribute other than this mindless ramblings??



Shall we say, a taste of your own medicine, in any case looking at your futile rants with a female member, it's not difficult to conclude who is worth their salt. Anyways back to the topic my dear.


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## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> Yeah .. Yeah .. Yeah.. Lets talk when that happens.. Till then lets deal in the reality.. Shall we??



Indeed, but i highly doubt that you will be in mood to talk then.


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## Valiant_Soul

jinxeD_girl said:


> Anywayz, going back to topic...
> 
> I am coming back from a party at one of my Kashmiri friend's house.. and I showed her this forum..
> 
> She was saying it is a pity how Indians and Pakistanis are fighting for Kashmir without even involving poor Kashmiris in this discussion. Most Kashmiris want independent Kashmir and they dont want to be either with India and Pakistan...
> 
> I wish someone would respect their opinion and let Kashmiris live in peace and let them determine their own future...



Does not looks good to see you on topic. 

Your and your friend's sentiments or even the sentiments of Kashmiris cannot be the basis of compromising the territorial integrity of India. I hope you can understand the meaning of giving up a piece of land at the whim of an extremely small group of people.

What people having your kind of sentiments do not understand is that Kashmir belongs to India, not just to Kashmiris. That is correct, but kind of sentimental part - the main issue being that nations cannot afford to compromise territorial integrity, for that would indicate that its unity and integrity is in danger. Especially, India, if it has to keep intact the unity amongst multi-diversity, needs to protect the idea of India at all costs. Also land is equivalent to power - all nations have to retain their land if they wish to retain their power and respect. No sane person would deny that.

As far as Kashmiris are concerned, they are given every right to live their life the way they want in India under the same constitution (in fact they have more rights than Indians in other parts). And I am glad to tell you that the sentiments shared by you and your friend is not the sentiment of majority of Kashmiris. But even if some people are not happy to be here, they also have the freedom to leave the country. What else do they require? Also Independent Kashmir is a failed perception - such a state cannot be sustained. 

P.S. Do you know the condition of Azad Kashmir? If not follow this link: DAWN.COM | Editorial | Azad Kashmir today

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## IMADreamer

jinxeD_girl said:


> And please don't call me "hun". Some other Indian member "Tadka" was sending me kisses. eewwww. Got it darkie ?





jinxeD_girl said:


> The place where I live, study and work... that place is heavily dominated by South Indians... and I for once don't find them civilized. They don't have any table manners, they are cheap and suffer from inferiority complexes... Other than "hindi signs", "slightly darker skin tone", there are many other cultural clues that separate us from them.
> 
> I think you are talking about those South Indians who are born and raised in USA, and not the ones who are Freshies off the boats right ?





jinxeD_girl said:


> Yes, but Indians should really work on their English accent. It annoys lots of people. Indians shouldn't be allowed to take "customer service" jobs.
> 
> In August, my Dell computer got infected by a deadly virus "lsass.exe", and the customer service person was someone from India.. In the end it gave me severe headache. They charged my credit card and never sent me the required disks. In the end I filed a long complaint and promised never to buy from Dell again unless they change their customer service.
> 
> I bought my new computer from HP, and their customer service is outsourced to India too.





jinxeD_girl said:


> Thats what many Indian guyz told me in real life too.





jinxeD_girl said:


> Yes, but compared to other states Punjabis only make 3&#37; of Indian Population.. and yet they dominate Bollywood...
> 
> I haven't started on Lollywood.. which is again dominated by Punjabis.. but then in Pakistan Punjabis make up the majority.. So no need to bring beautiful Pakistani actresses from 1940s, 1950s and 1960s in this discussion





> Isn't it ironic that during partition... we sent all the good looking Hindu/Sikhs from Punjab
> 
> and NWFP to India and in return we got ugly looking Indian Muslims from U.P., Bihar etc...
> .





Valiant_Soul said:


> I just wanted to make a simple change in your approach. Looks and skin color should not be the basis of disliking or considering someone inferior. And I am not a south Indian, I am a north Indian. Not a Punjabi, but still good looking, and I tell you for sure there are innumerable examples of good-looking non-Punjabis in India. You can come to India and see for yourself. At least, you can trust me so much when I say that?
> 
> P.S. Everything I said to you was more in a jocular manner, I hope you did not took any of my words to heart.
> 
> Be human, love human!




@Valiant_Soul :don't mess with her she is a raciest.don't create your opinion about pakistan by just reading her raciest view (Unfortunately these bread still exists on earth and so shamelessly.)

I have read her comments in another threads and already warned her.even AM deleted her most of the comment while she was discussing with one pastun guy.Mods have already given lot's of warnings too .some of her views was disgusting like this.

1. most of the pakistani *can only bear some part of north indian but how can they bear south indian*.

2.When one pashtun guy shut her mouth with the same medicin she is using right now then she had started bad words about afgan and pastuns.her comment was showing her real standard and also that how beutifull she is like this

*"i have 5 afgan pashtun servent in my house and they are very obedient and fallow my every order without any questin."*
.........
.....

She just have Punjabi superiority complex and she is very arogent and rude .most of the pakistani is not like her so my request to all indian just ignore her comment and don't think that pakistanis are like that.(Why should we insult other nice pakistani guys/Girls by comparing her. )



She does't have to talk any thing positive ir-respective of thread topic her comment will be full of.
1.religious superiority
2.ethinic superiority.
3.punjabi superiority 
4.she is more beutifull than others...(Beautifull my foot)
First let her to be a humun then we should discuss any think with her.


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## Valiant_Soul

IMADreamer said:


> @Valiant_Soul :don't mess with her she is a raciest.don't create your opinion about pakistan by just reading her raciest view (Unfortunately these bread still exists on earth and so shamelessly.)
> 
> I have read her comments in another threads and already warned her.even AM deleted her most of the comment while she was discussing with one pastun guy.Mods have already given lot's of warnings too .some of her views was disgusting like this.
> 
> 1. most of the pakistani can only bear some part of north indian but but can they bear south indian their culture are not like us.
> 
> 2.When one pashtun guy shut her mouth with the same medicin she is using right now then she have started bad words about afgan and pastuns.her comment was showing her real standard and also that how beutifull she has.like this
> 
> *"i have 5 afgan pashtun servent in my house and they are very obedient and fallow my every order without any questin."*
> .........
> .....
> 
> She just have Punjabi superiority complex and she is very arogent and rude .most of the pakistani is not like her so my request to all indian just ignore her comment don't think that pakistanis are like that.
> 
> 
> First let her to be a humun then we should discuss any think with her.



It is okay buddy, no need to take things to heart - these are non-issues. You may also find many Indians to be arrogant. That only means that they need to be educated through calm discussions, so they can feel the need to change. She is a good person, a bit arrogant, but I guess that is the benefit we must give to the girls. 

Remember, returning hate for hate multiplies hate. Although, do not take this theory with you in case you are in a war.

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## Jade

​*Who is a citizen of India, who decides who is not? *

Citizenship is a modern concept and a self-limiting notion. A detailed survey of a mix of Indian citizens, including Kashmiris, published by the Economic and Political Weekly (EPW) in its latest edition gives the discussion a more meaningful and complex character than it is traditionally granted. But before we take a look at its findings, it would be useful to bear in mind that references to a foreigner or a pardesi in popular idiom  such as folk songs and traditional poetry  are at variance with the issue of citizenship the survey puts under the scanner.


Much like the loose idiom that thus defines a foreigner vis-à-vis a native, Allama Iqbal too was responsible for causing confusion about the idea of India  which he called Hindustan  and about those inhabiting what he declaimed was a fabled region. After declaring in a popular eulogy that Hindustan was the best nation (or country or territory, he doesnt define it) he simultaneously supported nascent Muslim separatism, which many Pakistanis see as an early endorsement of their nationhood.


Pardesi or its Persianised variant Begaana, which also refers to a stranger, forms the spine of popular romance across the Hindi/Urdu belt though by todays standards the foreigner of yore would usually have belonged to a nearby village or precincts of a different but neighbouring principality. Balam pardesi or beloved foreigner could thus be referring to a neighbour by todays perceptions of what constitutes a foreigner. I have been perplexed since as long as I can remember, however, as to why an Indians national sentiment, which comes with Indian citizenship, should require him to feel a greater bonding with a Naga from Nagaland, for example, but not with a Nepali whose language Indians understand better.


A popular word used by many Indians working in the Gulf states in the 1980s was muluk. And when they said they were off to their muluk (distinct from the more refined mulk) for a holiday, they usually meant a village or a qasbah though sometimes also a city or a town, but it seldom conveyed the sense of a country as the word is generally thought to mean.


The EPW survey on how Indians see or dont see themselves as citizens of their country throws up some unexpected results. The number of Kashmiris who do not consider themselves as Indians is relatively higher than other regional groups except those from the far eastern Tripura state. However, in absolute terms a majority of Kashmiris still acknowledge their Indian citizenship. Similarly, the average of Indian Muslims who accept the parameters of citizenship is lower by four percentage points than the national average of 89 per cent.


A representative sample of 8,000 men and women were interviewed in their own languages by specially trained investigators. The respondents were asked in a neutral manner questions such as  Some people think of themselves as Indian citizens, while some others do not think of themselves as citizens of India. Talking about yourself, do you consider yourself a citizen of India?


Who then are the 89 per cent who claim the status of citizens and who are the non-citizens? Says Subrata Mitra who analysed the data for EPW: In terms of their self-perception, citizens as well as non-citizens do not have any distinct social profile. The higher educated tend to have a slightly greater tendency to see themselves as citizens.


Those surveyed were asked simple questions. For example did they agree or not that all citizens enjoyed equal rights. Only 44.7 per cent said they did. More than 11 per cent completely disagreed. Were people free to speak their minds without fear? About 39 per cent said they did and 13 per cent totally disagreed. Did people have the power to change the government they did not like? More than 45 per cent felt they did nearly 17 per cent disagreed. Most citizens had basic necessities like food, clothing shelter? As many as 33.4 per cent affirmed it while 12.6 per cent said it was not true.


In the survey, in terms of social characteristics, Mitra sees no clear social profile that would radically distinguish the self-perception as citizens from that of non-citizens. State averages showed a distinct swing though. Clearly, context matters, for in Jammu and Kashmir, at 19.6 per cent, the average of non-citizens is almost three times that of the national average. In Tripura, it climbs even higher, reaching an astounding 27 per cent.


The peculiar situation of Jammu and Kashmir marked a deviation from the national average in other ways. *First of all, let this be clear that 69 per cent of people interviewed in Jammu and Kashmir think of themselves as Indian citizens,* says Mitra. *Even among Muslims the percentage is 59 per cent.* There is no clear relationship with education; and contrary to the national trend, urban residents are less inclined to count themselves as citizens.


Mitra says that the national trend of a positive relationship with class does not hold in Kashmir, with the rich and the very poor pulling level with regard to the probability of counting themselves as citizens of India.


Within the framework of the findings, the split between Jammu and the Kashmir Valley carries the shadow of the separatist movement. In other words 83 per cent of the residents of Jammu count themselves as citizens of India compared to 53 per cent for the Kashmir Valley.


In Jammu and Kashmir, according to Mitra, men perform better than women when it comes to the strength of citizenship. However, the rural respondents perform better than their urban counterparts. The upper castes of Jammu and Kashmir (most of them from Jammu region) perform better whereas the proportion of low citizenship is alarmingly high among Muslims.


In the big picture there are even more glaring differences in the way Kashmiris see themselves vis-à-vis India and how others approach the issue. The same scale that shows 43.6 per cent of the national sample to be in the category of high citizenship reveals that in Jammu and Kashmir, only 20.2 per cent are at the highest level of citizenship.

The survey looks at a comparative data between Kashmiri Muslims and Muslims from the rest of India. Strong citizenship among educated Muslims outside Jammu and Kashmir reaches 59.4 per cent, compared with to 54.2 per cent for all Indians with a comparable level of education. Equally surprising is the effect of age: young Muslims (up to 25 years) outside Jammu and Kashmir contain 52.3 per cent strong citizens compared to 44.6 per cent for Indians as a whole.


It sounds like an interesting survey and probably needs to be followed up more scrupulously. Would it however make much difference to the way Muslims  Kashmiris and non-Kashmiris  are perceived in the paradigm of them and us. Or as the songs described the pardesis and the begaanas.

DAWN.COM | Columnists | Who is a citizen of India, who decides who is not?

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## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> Abhiras,
> And as I said before there is no correlation between the number of models/miss worlds produced by a country to the general attractiveness of people of that country..
> 
> *In India Punjabis represent only 3% of Indian population and are overly represented in Bollywood*, while in Pakistan they are the dominant group. Many of the Punjabis and Pushtuns who are considered LEGENDS in Indian Film Industry have their roots in present day Pakistan.. Now let us make the list and you will see how many Punjabis are there in Bollywood...



1.You are contradicting your own statement.....if no.of actors and actress from particular region means they are good looking.....

then why not miss world crown..india is no.1 in getting those.... 

2. ((Though i myself is a punjabi)) i am strongly agaistst the claim that only punjabi south asian are good looking...
Every community watches its people good looking & thats is a good thing till the point it do not think other community bad looking...

3.i have visited many parts of india ....& the girl which i found attractive were Gujarati girls , Bengali girls , kashmiri girls , himachali girls and also our punjabi girls are not far behind...


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## Hyde

jinxeD_girl said:


> Thank you for your support... some things remain subjective and some things are facts... and I can post facts on this forum.. right?
> 
> *Fact *- Bollywood have been always dominated by Punjabis and they are overly represented in Bollywood considering their 3&#37; population...



Actually may be you only have good knowledge about Casts and races in Pakistan. Spend sometime to know about India and you might want to change your opinion later on. Bollywood is a big industry that does not ends at Hindi speaking cinemas. It has got thousands of actors and actresses working in bollywood movies that also involves movies in other languages.

You see you are only talking about Hindi bollywood actors. But what about Bengali, Marathi, Telugu, Malayalum, Tamil & Gujarati actors/actresses? whose first language is not Hindi? They are also very popular in India and are good looking too. Some of the actresses from South India has also performed in Hindi Bollywood Movies for example Aishwaria Rai, Ayesha Takia, Vidya Balan? are they not good looking? these are only 3 examples and all of them started their early career in marathi or tamil or other languages movies and not Hindi (in your words Bollywood)

I understand there is another industry called Tollywood for Tamil movies  but Bollywood in itself is too big and a lot bigger than your imagination

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## tfyfeng

Oh, no one come to save him?


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## Abhiras

Zaki said:


> Bollywood is a big industry that does not ends at Hindi speaking cinemas.



yeah absolutely agree ,,
bollywood is biggest film industry of the world ....beating hollywod in both no. of film & no. of viewers


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## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> Indeed, but i highly doubt that you will be in mood to talk then.



That then is destined to always be in future tense and never in present tense.. So you will never be able to see what kind of mood i will be in when (never) that will happen...


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## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> That then is destined to always be in future tense and never in present tense.. So you will never be able to see what kind of mood i will be in when (never) that will happen...



Think of the thought as thinking the thought is in itself is a thought.
Those who don't think the thought, in my opinion are not worth a thought.


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## Abhiras



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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

well beware pakistani people dont advertise to much kashmir....keep what u have with u and be peaceful..........let indians enjoy their pie.....free advise


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

propaganda isn't.....

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## xebex

Valiant_Soul said:


> She is a good person, a bit arrogant



Hitler was a good person too, but was little arrogant to non-germans.

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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

some pics of indian kashmir

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## Luftwaffe

Kashmir and Palestine similarities...hindus/Jews similarities..
those days are not far when those indigenous indian movements gears-up and fires perhaps 20 year-30 years..


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## Windjammer

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> well beware pakistani people dont advertise to much kashmir....keep what u have with u and be peaceful..........let indians enjoy their pie.....free advise



Oh......... La....La......!!!!!


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## Hyde

xebex said:


> Hitler was a good person too, but was little arrogant to non-germans.



Hitler was an evil genius 

I hate him as much as i hate Bush 

Killing innocents (no matter who he is) is like killing the whole of humanity.


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## jinxeD_girl

IMADreamer said:


> @Valiant_Soul :don't mess with her she is a raciest.don't create your opinion about pakistan by just reading her raciest view (Unfortunately these bread still exists on earth and so shamelessly.)
> 
> I have read her comments in another threads and already warned her.even AM deleted her most of the comment while she was discussing with one pastun guy.Mods have already given lot's of warnings too .some of her views was disgusting like this.
> 
> 1. most of the pakistani *can only bear some part of north indian but how can they bear south indian*.
> 
> 2.When one pashtun guy shut her mouth with the same medicin she is using right now then she had started bad words about afgan and pastuns.her comment was showing her real standard and also that how beutifull she is like this
> 
> *"i have 5 afgan pashtun servent in my house and they are very obedient and fallow my every order without any questin."*
> .........
> .....
> 
> She just have Punjabi superiority complex and she is very arogent and rude .most of the pakistani is not like her so my request to all indian just ignore her comment and don't think that pakistanis are like that.(Why should we insult other nice pakistani guys/Girls by comparing her. )
> 
> 
> 
> She does't have to talk any thing positive ir-respective of thread topic her comment will be full of.
> 1.religious superiority
> 2.ethinic superiority.
> 3.punjabi superiority
> 4.she is more beutifull than others...(Beautifull my foot
> First let her to be a humun then we should discuss any think with her.



1. Are you suffering from dyslexia or your keyboard is broken ? 

2. How come talking about thick Indian accents is racism ? Can you define racism ?



> @Valiant_Soul :don't mess with her she is a raciest.don't create your opinion about pakistan by just reading her raciest view (Unfortunately these bread still exists on earth and so shamelessly.)



None of the Indian members on this forum are that stupid, idiotic, and retarded that they will use my personal views as a sole criteria to judge 160 million pakistanis! Right Indians ? 



> 1. most of the pakistani can only bear some part of north indian but how can they bear south indian.



You posted that part out of context... It was relevant to that discussion.



> 2.When one pashtun guy shut her mouth with the same medicin she is using right now then she had started bad words about afgan and pastuns.her comment was showing her real standard and also that how beutifull she is like this



Pakhtunz was an Afghan nationalist and he was saying bad things about Pakistan and Punjabis.. so I had to defend my country and ethnicity.. Whats wrong with that? You are very much allowed to defend your country too. He got banned from this forum and I am still alive and kicking... 



> "i have 5 afgan pashtun servent in my house and they are very obedient and fallow my every order without any questin."



So ? When did having 5 Afghan servants has anything to do with racism? Most upper middle classes and upper classes of Pakistan have several servants.  Instead of selling terrorism and opium in Pakistan, Afghans should put their a$$es to work. 



> my request to all indian just ignore her



and yet they don't ignore me and continue replying back to me... and in yours case they are obsessed with me.. that you are saving all my posts... even deleted posts and the ones which I made weeks ago.. combining them and posting it here... You have lots of time in your hands... I didn't know I had such effect on Indians and I was leaving such lasting impressions!  



> She does't have to talk any thing positive ir-respective of thread topic her comment will be full of.
> 1.religious superiority



I am NOT religous... Therre is an Urdu saying "Bad sai Badnaam bura"... Not even in one post I have shown religious superiority and yet you blamed that on me too.. 



> 2.ethinic superiority.



That is called ethnic pride 



> 3.punjabi superiority



refer to my statement above

Lastly, why did you dig all my previous posts and started another flame war... when the matter was settled and things started to calm down ?


----------



## jinxeD_girl

xebex said:


> Hitler was a good person too, but was little arrogant to non-germans.



Hitler wanted to eliminate certain races... in my case I want to avoid them.. Not the same thing!!


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Zaki said:


> . Bollywood is a big industry that does not ends at Hindi speaking cinemas.



Zaki I thought we were only talking about BOLLYWOOD (Hindi Film Industry) and not about regional Cinemas of India? 

I am quoting this from the Book - *Bollywood - a guidebook to popular Hindi Cinema* (page 2- 3) :-

"Bollywood" - a tongue-in-cheek term created by the English language press in India in the late 1970s - has now become the dominant global term to refer to the prolific and box-office oriented Hindi language film industry located in Bombay (renamed Mumbai in 1995).

*The most frequent factual error perpetuated by the international and Indian press is that the Bombay film industry produces 800-1200 films a year. The Bombay industry (Bollywood or Hindi Film Industry) actually produces about 150-200 films a year*

and I was not talking about the total output of INDIAN film Industry, but I was only concerned with Bollywood (Hindi Film Industry)... 

If still in doubt check Encyclopedia of Indian Cinema and see the output of various regional Cinemas across India..


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> yeah absolutely agree ,,
> bollywood is biggest film industry of the world ....beating hollywod in both no. of film & no. of viewers



Bollywood is NOT the biggest Industry of the world... but Indian Cinema as a whole is the biggest film Industry of the World... Check my previous reply to Zaki on this issue... Thanks.


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> 1.You are contradicting your own statement.....if no.of actors and actress from particular region means they are good looking.....
> 
> then why not miss world crown..india is no.1 in getting those....
> 
> 2. ((Though i myself is a punjabi)) i am strongly agaistst the claim that only punjabi south asian are good looking...
> Every community watches its people good looking & thats is a good thing till the point it do not think other community bad looking...
> 
> 3.i have visited many parts of india ....& the girl which i found attractive were Gujarati girls , Bengali girls , kashmiri girls , himachali girls and also our punjabi girls are not far behind...



Kashmiri girlz are very pretty... I have several Kashmiri friends... But Bengali and Gujarati girlz...  Nevermind...  I will keep my mouth shut this time...


----------



## Hyde

jinxeD_girl said:


> Zaki I thought we were only talking about BOLLYWOOD (Hindi Film Industry) and not about regional Cinemas of India?
> 
> I am quoting this from the Book - *Bollywood - a guidebook to popular Hindi Cinema* (page 2- 3) :-
> 
> "Bollywood" - a tongue-in-cheek term created by the English language press in India in the late 1970s - has now become the dominant global term to refer to the prolific and box-office oriented Hindi language film industry located in Bombay (renamed Mumbai in 1995).
> 
> *The most frequent factual error perpetuated by the international and Indian press is that the Bombay film industry produces 800-1200 films a year. The Bombay industry (Bollywood or Hindi Film Industry) actually produces about 150-200 films a year*
> 
> and I was not talking about the total output of INDIAN film Industry, but I was only concerned with Bollywood (Hindi Film Industry)...
> 
> If still in doubt check Encyclopedia of Indian Cinema and see the output of various regional Cinema across India..



Ok ma'am my knowledge about films is very poor 

You rule the world. I prefer watching Hollywood movies only

Bollywood only when i have extra free time  or when i hear if a new movie is very unique.

I always considered All Indian movies as bollywood movies (except Tamils) didn't know if this word Bollywood is specifically used for Hindi movies only


----------



## jinxeD_girl

xebex said:


> Hitler was a good person too, but was little arrogant to non-germans.



You consider Hitler a *good* person.. Now I am really getting nervous and worried...


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Zaki said:


> Ok ma'am my knowledge about films is very poor
> 
> You rule the world. I prefer watching Hollywood movies only
> 
> Bollywood only when i have extra free time  or when i hear if a new movie is very unique.
> 
> I always considered All Indian movies as bollywood movies (except Tamils) didn't know if this word Bollywood is specifically used for Hindi movies only



India produces films in more than 20 languages.. Bollywood (B for Bombay) means Hindi Film Industry.. 

Lollywood = L for Lahore
Bollywood = B for Bombay
Dollywood = D for Dhaka
and so on ...


----------



## xebex

jinxeD_girl said:


> You consider Hitler a *good* person.. *Now I am really getting nervous and worried*...



U hav the full right to, especially after pissing me off.


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Anywayz,

A newbie from India (her name is Priya) has started at our workplace today. One of my managers said that I should train her. Here is the gist of our brief conversation :-

Me = How are you?
Priya = I am fine
Me = Where are you from?
Priya = Kerala, India
Me = Oh really...  *You don't look Indian....*
Priya (smiling a little) = What do I look like then?
Me = You can pass off as Persian or Latin... *but you don't look Indian*
Priya (smiling alot) = Thanks, I will take that as a compliment!
Me = Ofcourse you should!! You don't look Indian at all!!
Priya = You are so sweet! You want to go to lunch with me after the training? I will buy you free lunch!
Me = No Thanks... I am going to Applebee's with my Ukrainian friends


----------



## Hyde

jinxeD_girl said:


> India produces films in more than 20 languages.. Bollywood (B for Bombay) means Hindi Film Industry..
> 
> Lollywood = L for Lahore
> Bollywood = B for Bombay
> Dollywood = D for Dhaka
> and so on ...



so by that logic if "Jaipur" starts Film Industry that will be called

Jollywood

If "Chandigarh" starts producing Movies that will be called

Collywood

and best of all - if "Surat" starts a film industry that will be

Sollywood


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Zaki said:


> so by that logic if "Jaipur" starts Film Industry that will be called
> 
> Jollywood
> 
> If "Chandigarh" starts producing Movies that will be called
> 
> Collywood
> 
> and best of all - if "Surat" starts a film industry that will be
> 
> Sollywood



I dont know about that .. but thats how they are naming the film industries uptil now...

Pashto Film Industry which is based in Peshawar is called *Pollywood.*.. 

Pollywood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Hyde

jinxeD_girl said:


> I dont know about that .. but thats how they are naming the film industries uptil now...
> 
> Pashto Film Industry which is based in Peshawar is called *Pollywood.*..
> 
> Pollywood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



but say if L for Lollywood is taken by Lahore

What if London wants to starts it new film Industry?

are they going to name it as LLollywood


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Zaki said:


> but say if L for Lollywood is taken by Lahore
> 
> What if London wants to starts it new film Industry?
> 
> are they going to name it as LLollywood



Hindi film industry is influenced by Hollywood and Pakistani film industry is influenced by Bollywood...

That is why.. instead of coming up with some original names for their respective industries... they started naming them Bollywood, Lollywood... 

That was one of the criticisms raised by some people that Bollywood should be called Hindi Film Industry instead of Bollywood... because the name "Bollywood" sounds like it is a cheap imitation or clone of Hollywood.. same goes for "Lollywood" who is a little cheap sister of "Bollywood"

I am sure Britishers can come up with some original name for their film industry..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hyde

jinxeD_girl said:


> Hindi film industry is influenced by Hollywood and Pakistani film industry is influenced by Bollywood...
> 
> That is why.. instead of coming up with some original names for their respective industries... they started naming them Bollywood, Lollywood...
> 
> That was one of the criticisms raised by some people that Bollywood should be called Hindi Film Industry instead of Bollywood... because the name "Bollywood" sounds like it is a cheap imitation or clone of Hollywood.. same goes for "Lollywood" who is a little cheap sister of "Bollywood"
> 
> I am sure Britishers can come up with some original name for their film industry..



thanks you indeed have good knowledge about movies........ i only watch movie........ don't care about anything else.

Bye i am in my bed now going to sleep soon


----------



## Peshwa

jinxeD_girl said:


> Kashmiri girlz are very pretty... I have several Kashmiri friends... But Bengali and Gujarati girlz...  Nevermind...  I will keep my mouth shut this time...



What makes the Gujrati and Bengali girls so "ahem ahem"?......

I tend to think Bengali girls are simply oh so umph.....hmm...lets see...

Bipasha Basu
Sushmita Sen
Sharmila Tagore
Riya Sen
Raima Sen
Moon-Moon Sen
Rani Mukherjee
Koena Mitra
Lisa Ray
Tanushree Dutta......

I think u get the point.....The way I see it...theres hardly any punjabi actresses in Bollywood aka...Hindi cinema....except the Kapoor clan....and Priyanka Chopra....and maybe Preity Zinta if u call Himachal as Punjabi....
In fact the most beautiful actress in Bollywood...or lets say representing South Asians... (Aishwariya Rai...personally not a fan)...is south Indian...plus there are more South Indian actresses than Punjabi.....

What does that say about Punjabi women Ms.Lahore?....Do you think in general Punjabi women are unattractive based on the above?....Do you consider yourself in this brackett?


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Peshwa said:


> What makes the Gujrati and Bengali girls so "ahem ahem"?......
> 
> I tend to think Bengali girls are simply oh so umph.....hmm...lets see...
> 
> Bipasha Basu
> Sushmita Sen
> Sharmila Tagore
> Riya Sen
> Raima Sen
> Moon-Moon Sen
> Rani Mukherjee
> Koena Mitra
> Lisa Ray
> Tanushree Dutta......
> 
> I think u get the point.....The way I see it...theres hardly any punjabi actresses in Bollywood aka...Hindi cinema....except the Kapoor clan....and Priyanka Chopra....and maybe Preity Zinta if u call Himachal as Punjabi....
> In fact the most beautiful actress in Bollywood...or lets say representing South Asians... (Aishwariya Rai...personally not a fan)...is south Indian...plus there are more South Indian actresses than Punjabi.....
> 
> What does that say about Punjabi women Ms.Lahore?....Do you think in general Punjabi women are unattractive based on the above?



What I said was that compared to their numbers (3&#37... Bollywood have been traditionally dominated by Punjabis (especially in the past)... I think you are forgetting Akshay Kumar, Hrithik Roshan, Lara Dutta and many others who are Punjabis too...

Traditionally, Aishwariya Roy (with no acting skills) is not considered the most beautiful actress of Bollywood.. Madhubala is..

Madhubala | Upperstall.Com

"*Madhubala was without doubt the most beautiful Hindi Film heroine ever. *".

Now coming back to your agument.. why you guyz bring some Bengali actresses to show me how beautiful Bengalis or Bangladeshis are. I want to see some good looking Bangla people in real life... Show me some attractive Bangla people from everyday life and I will atleast acknowledge that some exist..  
Same goes for Gujjus 

One Aishwariya Roy from South India and one Sushmita Sen from East is not the representation of how majority of South and East Indians look..

On the other hand I can show you thousands and thousands of ordinary Kashmiris and Punjabis and Pushtuns from everyday life who are good looking...

And moderators.. I put this matter to rest... now someone named IMADREAMER started the flame again.. so, dont blame me...


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Anywayz... it is useless arguing on this issue...

Ok guyz I agree that Bengalis are very beautiful.. Now leave me alone please!! 

Put this matter to rest!


----------



## Peshwa

jinxeD_girl said:


> What I said was that compared to their numbers (3&#37... Bollywood have been traditionally dominated by Punjabis (especially in the past)... I think you are forgetting Akshay Kumar, Hrithik Roshan, Lara Dutta and many others who are Punjabis too...
> 
> Traditionally, Aishwariya Roy (with no acting skills) is not considered the most beautiful actress of Bollywood.. Madhubala is..
> 
> Madhubala | Upperstall.Com
> 
> "*Madhubala was without doubt the most beautiful Hindi Film heroine ever. *".
> 
> Now coming back to your agument.. why you guyz bring some Bengali actresses to show me how beautiful Bengalis or Bangladeshis are. I want to see some good looking Bangla people in real life... Show me some attractive Bangla people from everyday life and I will atleast acknowledge that some exist..
> Same goes for Gujjus
> 
> One Aishwariya Roy from South India and one Sushmita Sen from East is not the representation of how majority of South and East Indians look..
> 
> On the other hand I can show you thousands and thousands of ordinary Kashmiris and Punjabis and Pushtuns from everyday life who are good looking...
> 
> And moderators.. I put this matter to rest... now someone named IMADREAMER started the flame again.. so, dont blame me...



HAHA.....I kinda like your never give up attitude....unfortunately....your "expertise" is in the knowledge of Bollywood....a rather not so revered skill in these circles.....

But "Fursat mein"....I could keep going on till I prove you wrong....

Let me end by quoting my conversation with a Sikh friend:

Me: Yaar...Ye Sardaniyon ko tum Sardar acche kaise dikhte ho?
Jaiveer: Yaar ye sawaal tum Sardarni se pucho.....

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!!

JinxeD Girl....The colonization of our subcontinent happened because we let the color of our skin become our weakness......United we stand Divided we fall....but if we keep finding ways to divide ourselves.....our enemies will find it even easier to tip us over......

Take my words with a grain on salt......But remember that in the country you live and work in....your regionalism is worth Sh!t!!!

PS: Lara Dutta is Bengali....Also..regarding the Gujju girls....if you knew the Gujju Girls at U of M you probably wouldnt be saying this......and trust me...Im not even Gujrati...


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Peshwa said:


> HAHA.....I kinda like your never give up attitude....unfortunately....your "expertise" is in the knowledge of Bollywood....a rather not so revered skill in these circles.....
> 
> But "Fursat mein"....I could keep going on till I prove you wrong....
> 
> Let me end by quoting my conversation with a Sikh friend:
> 
> Me: Yaar...Ye Sardaniyon ko tum Sardar acche kaise dikhte ho?
> Jaiveer: Yaar ye sawaal tum Sardarni se pucho.....
> 
> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!!
> 
> JinxeD Girl....The colonization of our subcontinent happened because we let the color of our skin become our weakness......United we stand Divided we fall....but if we keep finding ways to divide ourselves.....our enemies will find it even easier to tip us over......
> 
> Take my words with a grain on salt......But remember that in the country you live and work in....your regionalism is worth Sh!t!!!
> 
> PS: Lara Dutta is Bengali....Also..regarding the Gujju girls....if you knew the Gujju Girls at U of M you probably wouldnt be saying this......



Oh!! and here I was expecting the pictures of some good looking Bangla and Gujju girls/boyz in your post...  Have you ever been to those Patel Grocery Shops owned by Gujjus in Minneapolis?... I don't remember seeing a good looking Gujju.. Anywayz.. Beauty is in the eye of beholder indeed!!


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Peshwa said:


> HAHA.....I kinda like your never give up attitude....unfortunately....your "expertise" is in the knowledge of Bollywood....a rather not so revered skill in these circles.....
> 
> But "Fursat mein"....I could keep going on till I prove you wrong....
> 
> Let me end by quoting my conversation with a Sikh friend:
> 
> Me: Yaar...Ye Sardaniyon ko tum Sardar acche kaise dikhte ho?
> Jaiveer: Yaar ye sawaal tum Sardarni se pucho.....
> 
> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!!
> 
> JinxeD Girl....The colonization of our subcontinent happened because we let the color of our skin become our weakness......United we stand Divided we fall....but if we keep finding ways to divide ourselves.....our enemies will find it even easier to tip us over......
> 
> Take my words with a grain on salt......But remember that in the country you live and work in....your regionalism is worth Sh!t!!!
> 
> PS: Lara Dutta is Bengali....Also..regarding the Gujju girls....if you knew the Gujju Girls at U of M you probably wouldnt be saying this......and trust me...Im not even Gujrati...



Lara Dutta was claiming on Koffee with Karan Show that she is a Punjabi girl at heart...

You are right, she look more Bengali.. Why she was claiming to be Punjabi ?


----------



## Peshwa

jinxeD_girl said:


> Oh!! and here I was expecting the pictures of some good looking Bangla and Gujju girls/boyz in your post...  Have you ever been to those Patel Grocery Shops owned by Gujjus in Minneapolis?... I don't remember seeing a good looking Gujju.. Anywayz.. Beauty is in the eye of beholder indeed!!




Unfortunately....I dont think you realize but the world spans larger than "Minneapolis".....Maybe if you came out of that "middle of nowhere" cold/bleak state you would find some attractive folks.....
Maybe its time you visited NYC?

Anyways....I dont know about the actors...but off the top of my head....Gujju hotties:

Ayesha Takia
Salena Jaitley
Amisha Patel
Dimple Kapadia
Hrishita Bhatt
Kashmira Shah....
Twinkle Khanna
Rinke Khanna

Im sure I can find more if I research.....But anyways....You do realize this is a useless discussion....

You wont win this argument sweetheart.......

Ill PM you the pics of these women if need be.....


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Peshwa said:


> Unfortunately....I dont think you realize but the world spans larger than "Minneapolis".....Maybe if you came out of that "middle of nowhere" cold/bleak state you would find some attractive folks.....
> 
> Anyways....I dont know about the actors...but off the top of my head....Gujju hotties:
> 
> Ayesha Takia
> Salena Jaitley
> Amisha Patel
> Dimple Kapadia
> Hrishita Bhatt
> Kashmira Shah....
> Twinkle Khanna
> Rinke Khanna
> 
> Im sure I can find more if I research.....But anyways....You do realize this is a useless discussion....
> 
> You wont win this argument sweetheart.......
> 
> Ill PM you the pics of these women if need be.....



Twinkle and Rinkie are half Punjabis.. aren't they? And i said post the pictures of Good Looking Gujjus/Bengalis from real life.. not the actresses.. 

Among millions and millions of Bengalis.. ofcourse there would be dozens or so who would be good looking...  and they end up in Bollywood...


----------



## Peshwa

jinxeD_girl said:


> Lara Dutta was claiming on Koffee with Karan Show that she is a Punjabi girl at heart...
> 
> You are right, she look more Bengali.. Why she was claiming to be Punjabi ?



You see my dear.....

Sometime one can have parents of multi regional descents....India isnt exactly a homogenous society....Im a mutt myself....

Maybe one of her parents is Punjabi.....


----------



## Peshwa

jinxeD_girl said:


> Twinkle and Rinkie are half Punjabis.. aren't they? And i said post the pictures of Good Looking Gujjus/Bengalis from real life.. not the actresses..
> 
> Among millions and millions of Bengalis.. ofcourse there would be dozens or so who would be good looking...  and they end up in Bollywood...



Hahaha....Unfortunately....Im not going to violate my privacy and that of my friends coz you have some sort of a complex.....

Friend me on Facebook and Ill give you 101 on "myth busting".....

PM me about anything else....I dont want to derail this discussion anymore....


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Ok I had enough fun for today and I put the matter to rest from my side...

I am really getting a notorious reputation among Indians on this forum.. so I better stop  them... 


From now on I will avoid such threads and take part in other threads.. lots of other interesting threads going on...


----------



## Hammy007

i thought i was in kashmir thread?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Peshwa said:


> You see my dear.....
> 
> Sometime one can have parents of multi regional descents....India isnt exactly a homogenous society....Im a mutt myself....
> 
> Maybe one of her parents is Punjabi.....



Pakistan isn't a homogeneous society itself... Now that you mentioned... I am a mutt myself... 3/4th Punjabi and 1/4th Persian... I mostly associate myself with my Punjabi side... but sometimes the Persian side take over


----------



## Kompromat

indeed Luftwaffe


----------



## DeathGod

jinxeD_girl said:


> Anywayz,
> 
> A newbie from India (her name is Priya) has started at our workplace today. One of my managers said that I should train her. Here is the gist of our brief conversation :-



Did you have a troubled childhood? 

Because seriously the manipulative nature of your talking and then taking the pleasure out of it by posting it on a forum ... ahem ahem... makes me feel that someone really did something very wrong which resulted in your soul being messed up.


----------



## jinxeD_girl

DeathGod said:


> Did you have a troubled childhood?
> 
> Because seriously the manipulative nature of your talking and then taking the pleasure out of it by posting it on a forum ... ahem ahem... makes me feel that someone really did something very wrong which resulted in your soul being messed up.



Well if Indians offer me free lunch and free drink just because they consider it as a compliment when I tell them they don't look Indian but Latin or Persian... what it has to do with my soul being fucked up? 

Try it next time... whatever I wrote above always works. Next time whenever you run out of money at Starbucks.. all you have to do is to strike a conversation with some Indian and tell him/her wow! You don't look Indian at all! You look Latino or Persian.. and woah! Free Frapuccino offer! 

And in today's U.S. economy you can save alot by getting free Lunch/drinks by just telling an Indian that he/she doesn't look like Indian...

Just a tip! Telling ya! It usually works! 

Although I do it just for fun... I can afford my drinks and lunches...


----------



## DeathGod

jinxeD_girl said:


> Well if Indians offer me free lunch and free drink just because they consider it as a compliment when I tell them they don't look Indian but Latin or Persian... what it has to do with my soul being fucked up?
> Although I do it just for fun... I can afford my drinks and lunches...



Roflol... Superb.. Nice joke .. made my morning.

Are you 10 or what?

Now I will take a few cases and discuss

1. Priya is actually a self aware girl. Now if priya is a self aware intelligent girl then she would know what you are upto.She will be aware that she doesnt look like Persian or Latin or whatever. On top of that she would like to give you a seemingly free lunch just so that you train her well and be good to her. This is how normal world will work.

2. She is a soft and sweet girl who doesnt know a damn thing about the world. In which case as every girl enjoys compliements ( even if they are fake and yes I have tried it on all kinds and a few nationalities of gals and it always works) she would have enjoyed the fact that she looks latin or persian to a select few maybe and to a few others Indian ( which not you but some other people would have told her).

There can be a few more cases and though I wouldnt discount your channel of thinking but I guess you are seriously underestimating your counterpart but then maybe you arent a been there done that kind of person in most respects.


----------



## jinxeD_girl

DeathGod said:


> Roflol... Superb.. Nice joke .. made my morning.



 I know I am glad that I made your morning... 

But if YOU would try that with some other Indian... it won't work... the conversation I am assuming would end up something like this :-

Deathgod and Priya at Starbucks coffee (and Deathgod not knowing that it is the SAME Priya who got a compliment from me few days ago)

Deathgod - Hi
Priya - Hi
Deathgod - How are you?
Priya - I am fine
Deathgod - Where are you from?
Priya - Kerala - India
Deathgod - Nice nice. I am from India too... and that is why I started this conversation with you because you look like someone from my country. It is nice to see someone from the same country in this strange faraway land
Priya = Um Ok... but a girl at work told me that I don't look Indian.. but Latin or Persian
Daethgod (being polite now) - Well you do LOOK Indian... the girl at your work was just being polite
Priya - Whatever! Bye!


----------



## DeathGod

jinxeD_girl said:


> I know I am glad that I made your morning...
> 
> But if YOU would try that with some other Indian... it won't work... the conversation I am assuming would end up something like this :-
> 
> Deathgod and Priya at Starbucks coffee (and Deathgod not knowing that it is the SAME Priya who got a compliment from me few days ago)
> 
> Daethgod (being polite now) - Well you do LOOK Indian... the girl at your work was just being polite
> Priya - Whatever! Bye!



I would just like to change the last sentence:

Deathgod ( being polite now) - Well you do LOOK Indian... the girl at your work was just being MANIPULATIVE

Priya - Shes such a BIAATCH!!!. Thank you for making me realise that I look like an Indian. I have been told so by many a million times before. Sorry I coudlt see through the manipulative framework of that jackass. I will clean the mat with her face the next time I meet her. Bloody BIAATCH.. Come on let me buy you a drink now. ROFLOL

@JG : See what difference a single word can make. 

In the world of infinite possibilites , not you nor me can decide the outcomes or read others mind with perfection through we can indulge in probabilistic treatment of different scenarios. However overconfidence is one of the most severe ailment most humans suffer from and that is specifically why one should train ones mind not to be overconfident


----------



## jinxeD_girl

DeathGod said:


> I would just like to change the last sentence:
> 
> Deathgod ( being polite now) - Well you do LOOK Indian... the girl at your work was just being MANIPULATIVE
> 
> Priya - Shes such a BIAATCH!!!. Thank you for making me realise that I look like an Indian. I have been told so by many a million times before. Sorry I coudlt see through the manipulative framework of that jackass. I will clean the mat with her face the next time I meet her. Bloody BIAATCH.. Come on let me buy you a drink now. ROFLOL



lol! 

Deathgod... Why would she think I am being manipulative? I rejected her lunch offer in the first place... 



> Priya - Shes such a BIAATCH!!!. Thank you for making me realise that I look like an Indian. I have been told so by many a million times before. Sorry I coudlt see through the manipulative framework of that jackass. I will clean the mat with her face the next time I meet her. Bloody BIAATCH.. Come on let me buy you a drink now. ROFLOL



You are right... that is probably how she will react because she looks kinda ill mannered MINUS "Thank you for making me realise that I look like an Indian"... 

But I can assure you Priya will never have the guts to say that to me in person... otherwise I will beat the hell out of her... bleach her skin and then send her to salon to get rid of that moustache which is the hallmark of south indian women....


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## Jade

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> well beware pakistani people dont advertise to much kashmir....keep what u have with u and be peaceful..........let indians enjoy their pie.....free advise



Thanks for the advise, but no thanks.

The whole of Kashmir belongs to India. The legality of Instrument of Accession has been recognized by the whole world. Successful election, one after one, proves that majority of Kashmiris, baring a significantly small minority, have full faith in Indian Democracy. Kashmiris are as much Indians as are Bengalis, Tamilians or Punjabis. 

Yes, there is a need to initiate dialogue with Pakistan on how to get back the remaining part of Kashmir that Pakistan occupies. This has to be done as fast as possible, so that both counties can live in peace. 

Regarding water issues, India can give explicit guarantee--the present Indus water treaty can be renegotiated to Pakistan satisfaction--that Pakistan would be getting its rightful share of water and in future India would not be disrupting the flow

Both the above issues can part of the dialogue process


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## AHMED85

Masha Allah god give one of his beautiful natural location to Pakistan.


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## Abhiras

luftwaffe said:


> Kashmir and Palestine similarities...hindus/Jews similarities..
> those days are not far when those indigenous indian movements gears-up and fires perhaps 20 year-30 years..



unlike isreal,,
kashmir velley also belongs to kashmiri pandits....which were forced to flee because of terrorism in velley ....

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## RobbieS

Whats the big deal about using Israeli weapons in Kashmir? TAVOR is a rifle specifically developed for urban COIN ops and all Para and special units of the IA operating in Kashmir have been armed with it. And whats this got to do with Pakistan?


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## Kompromat

Abhiras said:


> unlike isreal,,
> kashmir velley also belongs to kashmiri pandits....which were forced to flee because of terrorism in velley ....



Kashmir Belongs to Kashmiri Muslims & Local Hindus and not to any god damn Invader !


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## Relucent

RobbieS said:


> Whats the big deal about using Israeli weapons in Kashmir? TAVOR is a rifle specifically developed for urban COIN ops and all Para and special units of the IA operating in Kashmir have been armed with it. And whats this got to do with Pakistan?



Look how old the thread is lol.This blimp fella is posting the same vids on all the threads he can lay his eyes on.I saw him go from a fresher to a full member in 5 mins.
Abt the thread ....... the gr8 idea of it is to convey the message that India and Isreil are against Pakistan


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## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> Bollywood is NOT the biggest Industry of the world... but Indian Cinema as a whole is the biggest film Industry of the World... Check my previous reply to Zaki on this issue... Thanks.


I am also talking about Bombay Film industry....it is the largest one......search the internet....or other sources....it is popular from Nigeria to Egypt to Senegal to Pakistan and to Russia.........
it beats hollywood in both no. of viewers & no. of films.....


*Bollywood was born in 1899* with the production of a short film and *Hollywood&#8217;s birth happened 11 years later in 1910* with a Biography melodrama.

*Hollywood produces 500 films per year* on average and has a worldwide audience of* 2.6 billion* whereas *Bollywood produces more than 1000 films every year *and has a worldwide audience of* 3 Billion.* In terms of vieweship, *Bollywood overtook Hollywood in 2004 and has been leading ever since.*


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## Cityboy

what r the technical specifications of tavor ?


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## Novice09

Black blood said:


> *Coward C@nt*



What do the photographer want to prove?

ARMY Man getting ready to blow-off lady's head


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## Kompromat

*Kashmiri Freedom Fighters:*


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## Kompromat

Novice09 said:


> What do the photographer want to prove?
> 
> ARMY Man getting ready to blow-off lady's head



Pakistani Journalists are not allowed so This must be an International journalist & this is what he saw !


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## Abhiras

Black blood said:


> Kashmir Belongs to Kashmiri Muslims & Local Hindus and not to any god damn Invader !

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## equiliz3r

Black blood said:


> *Kashmiri Freedom Fighters:*




Future of so called pakistani Kashmiri freedom fighters

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## EjazR

I am surprised this thread hasn't been locked and some bans been handed out for going completely off topic.

JinXed_girl, you probably won't be around here for much longer, but u obviously don't realize that MA Jinnah was a 3rd generation Muslim whose family was from Gujarat. The Pakistan movement was possible only because of Muslim elite support of UP and Bihar and the Bangladeshi Muslim ancestors of today. So be thankful to them because without their contributions you would not have Pakistan. 

On second thoughts, you are probably just the ABCD types so what do you care about Pakistan. Maybe you would feel happy if someone told you that "you totally look like an American, you don't look like a Pakistani at all!". Ofcourse I don't expect you to admit that here so no need to reply.

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## Abhiras



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## Abhiras



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## jinxeD_girl

EjazR said:


> I am surprised this thread hasn't been locked and some bans been handed out for going completely off topic.
> 
> JinXed_girl, you probably won't be around here for much longer, but u obviously don't realize that MA Jinnah was a 3rd generation Muslim whose family was from Gujarat. The Pakistan movement was possible only because of Muslim elite support of UP and Bihar and the Bangladeshi Muslim ancestors of today. So be thankful to them because without their contributions you would not have Pakistan.
> 
> On second thoughts, you are probably just the ABCD types so what do you care about Pakistan. Maybe you would feel happy if someone told you that "you totally look like an American, you don't look like a Pakistani at all!". Ofcourse I don't expect you to admit that here so no need to reply.



Won't you Indian guyz LOVE to see me get banned.. and you guyz are trying your best to get me banned...  I try to put the matter to rest.. and some Indian guy restarts the topic ... If I am going off topic.. so are you guyz.. who keep on replying to me off topic... 

Well don't worry.. I have different ISP's and I can log in from some other internet service if my ISP address gets banned. I can log in from work... from my friend house.. from Starbucks.... the possibilities are limitless!

The thread starter himself said that he is enjoying my posts ... There are so many posts on Kashmir... therefore I urge the moderator or the thread starter to change the title of this thread to something like Bollywood, Jinxed girl and The Indians (just like classic Bollywood film Sahib Bibi Aur Ghulam) or maybe something like 1 Pakistani girl versus 20 Indian Guyz... and then we can continue.. 

Anywayz, I am at work right now on my 15 mins break.. and I will reply back to you laterzzz from home...  And this Priya girl is really annoying me... God!! Why I have to train her....!!

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## Hyde

oh Jinxed Girl you are still talking about same topic 

Yes because we now have so many posts off-topic may be create one another thread and move all these Bollywood merge there.

Good Idea........ but a time waste too  i know Staff isn't going to do that


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## Windjammer

My two cents, alas the topic.


New Delhi, Feb 24 (IANS) Urging Islamabad to include Kashmiris in the India-Pakistan dialogue process, separatist leaders from the valley met visiting Pakistani Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir here Wednesday, a day before he meets his Indian counterpart Nirupama Rao.
The chairman of the hardline faction of the Hurriyat Conference, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, was the first to meet Bashir at a hotel in south Delhi.

Staunchly pro-Pakistan, Geelani, who has been camping in the capital for medical treatment, refused to give details about the meeting that lasted about 15 minutes.

Pakistan has been giving moral and political support to Kashmiris in their freedom struggle and will continue doing so, Geelani told IANS when asked about the meeting. We want a tripartite dialogue over the Kashmir issue.

Leaders of the moderate faction of the Hurriyat, including its chief Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, also met the Pakistani foreign secretary. He was accompanied by Abdul Ghani Bhat, Aga Syed Hassan and Bilal Gani Lone.

We briefed Bashir about the situation in Jammu and Kashmir and about the human rights violations, the Mirwaiz told IANS.

We also asked him to include Kashmiris in the dialogue process with India and said the issue of Kashmir should top the agenda in his talks (with Rao), he said.

Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) leader Yasin Malik had a separate meeting with Bashir.

The separatists meetings the Pakistan diplomat comes against the backdrop of both Hurriyat factions refusing to talk to the Indian government.

Home Minister P. Chidambaram had invited the separatists for quiet diplomacy, which had initially been accepted by the Mirwaiz but was opposed bitterly by Geelani.

The Mirwaiz has now backed out of the proposed talks alleging that New Delhi had not done enough to create an atmosphere conducive for a dialogue.

Bashir, along with a five-member delegation, arrived here Wednesday afternoon.

Kashmir separatists meet Pakistan foreign secretary


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## Hammy007

EjazR said:


> I am surprised this thread hasn't been locked and some bans been handed out for going completely off topic.
> 
> JinXed_girl, you probably won't be around here for much longer, but u obviously don't realize that MA Jinnah was a 3rd generation Muslim whose family was from Gujarat. The Pakistan movement was possible only because of Muslim elite support of UP and Bihar and the Bangladeshi Muslim ancestors of today. So be thankful to them because without their contributions you would not have Pakistan.
> 
> On second thoughts, you are probably just the ABCD types so what do you care about Pakistan. Maybe you would feel happy if someone told you that "you totally look like an American, you don't look like a Pakistani at all!". Ofcourse I don't expect you to admit that here so no need to reply.



your continuous bharti propaganda to defame the creation of pakistan and pakistanis under a muslim name. for that i am surprised why you are not handed a brief ban by the mods so that you could realize your mistakes you are committing here.

look at your own unstable country, bharat, a little mistake by your government and bharat would break into tiny little pieces.


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## NWO

Here are the specs. Seems like a very good weapons, especially if it only costs $650.00. 
Modern Firearms - Tavor TAR-21 assault rifle

Tavor


A semi-automatic one,the Tavor Carbine, (T.C. 21), has been made for civilians customers. Can someone find the price of the civilian one. Thnx.


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## EjazR

Hammy007 said:


> your continuous bharti propaganda to defame the creation of pakistan and pakistanis under a muslim name. for that i am surprised why you are not handed a brief ban by the mods so that you could realize your mistakes you are committing here.
> 
> look at your own unstable country, bharat, a little mistake by your government and bharat would break into tiny little pieces.



Is there something factually incorrect in what I said in my post about Pakistan's founders. Have I "disrespected" or " defamed" them in anyway. Even Muhammad Iqbal comes from a converted Kashmiri Pandit family. That doesn't reduce his significance or importance in any way.


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## Novice09

Novice09 said:


> What do the photographer want to prove?
> 
> ARMY Man getting ready to blow-off lady's head





Black Blood said:


> Pakistani Journalists are not allowed so This must be an International journalist & this is what he saw !



Mr. Black Blood, did I say *Pakistani* photographer? 

I said photographer  

after reading your comment, below mentioned saying striked my mind

*chor ki daadi mein tinka* meaning *to have a guilty conscience*

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## Novice09




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## Kompromat

Novice09 said:


> Mr. Black Blood, did I say *Pakistani* photographer?
> 
> I said photographer
> 
> after reading your comment, below mentioned saying striked my mind
> 
> *chor ki daadi mein tinka* meaning *to have a guilty conscience*



You have missed my point , As per your view the Pakistani journalists are biased.

But whatever that Journalist saw he saved it , noting more nothing less.


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## Novice09



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## Kompromat

^^Novice 09 

That massacre was a tit for Tat !!

You killed 60k Kashmiris there is no accountability for it & you would tell us about Pandits ?

As you sow so shall you reap.

*No more BS in my Thread !!*


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## Hammy007

please post some videos of kashmiri torture by the hands of indian black terrorist army.


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## Kompromat



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## Trisonics

MUST Watch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## Novice09

Black Blood said:


> You have missed my point , As per your view the Pakistani journalists are biased.
> 
> But *whatever that Journalist saw he saved it , noting more nothing less*



How did you come to know about my point of view 

didn't he saw him loading or firing tear gas rounds  several journalist wants to sell there stories and photographs and this list includes Indian journalist too


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## Trisonics



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## Kompromat

For more than 60 years of the Indian occupation of Kashmir the indian army has violated many human rights and performed a genocide to suppress the Kashmiri population.

From January 1989 The Indian army has
- Killed over 90,000 Kashmiri People
- Arrested 115,972 civilians
- Destroyed/Arsoned 105,682 Structures
- Widowed over 22,000 women
- Orphaned over 107,000 children
- Gang raped & molested 9,850 women


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## Kompromat

View attachment 7cb610b3ea80fd4157abd89d56b33f68.jpg


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## Novice09

You should thank them. they (security personals) are not firing even after getting pelted by stones


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## Kompromat

*Soft warning for those Posting Irrelevant BS of AJK !!!*


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## Kompromat

*Throughout 60 years of Indian occupation of Kashmir the Kashmiri people have resisted the Indian rule. Violent groups have emerged in Kashmir valley near the late 80s to the early 21st century to fight the Indian troops [nearly 700,000 have been stationed in Indian Held Kashmir [IHK]]. The radical ways of these groups have lost influence over the last few years and the Kashmiri population is now holding peaceful protests throughout the region to end Indian suppression of the Kashmiri people and to kick India out of the region with more than hundreds of thousands of people showing up to support the rallies and chanting anti-India slogans while waiving Paksitani flags. According to the U.N resolutions India has to give the Kashmiri people a choice to weather join India or Pakistan or remain independent but India has yet to fulfill its promise and give the Kashmiri people their right to choose. India has recently held elections in the disputed region with a 65&#37; turnout even after the boycotting of the election by several Kashmiri separatist groups. India states that as a success but several Kashmiris voters has been quoted saying that "that does not effect the fact that we want to be free from Indian rule."*


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## Novice09

Black Blood said:


> *Throughout 60 years of Indian occupation of Kashmir the Kashmiri people have resisted the Indian rule. Violent groups have emerged in Kashmir valley near the late 80s to the early 21st century to fight the Indian troops [nearly 700,000 have been stationed in Indian Held Kashmir [IHK]]. The radical ways of these groups have lost influence over the last few years and the Kashmiri population is now holding peaceful protests throughout the region to end Indian suppression of the Kashmiri people and to kick India out of the region with more than hundreds of thousands of people showing up to support the rallies and chanting anti-India slogans while waiving Paksitani flags. According to the U.N resolutions India has to give the Kashmiri people a choice to weather join India or Pakistan or remain independent but India has yet to fulfill its promise and give the Kashmiri people their right to choose. India has recently held elections in the disputed region with a 65% turnout even after the boycotting of the election by several Kashmiri separatist groups. India states that as a success but several Kashmiris voters has been quoted saying that "that does not effect the fact that we want to be free from Indian rule."*



Looks like a security check under guns

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## jinxeD_girl

Now coming back to my favorite Jinxed Girl versus Indians thread... hmm let us see..


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## Kompromat

*Indian Army and Police Tied to Kashmir Killings*

SRINAGAR, Kashmir, Feb. 3 &#8212; Amid a grove of poplar trees in a village just north of here, a grave was unearthed Thursday afternoon. Out came the body of a man, shot dead nearly two months ago, whom the Indian police described at the time as an anti-Indian militant from Pakistan.

The New York Times

The police are examining five bodies buried near Sumbal. 

An elderly man, who had been searching for his missing son for nearly two months, was summoned for the exhumation. He stared at the horror dug out of the ground and told the police what he had refused to believe all this time. &#8220;He is my son,&#8221; he said. Then he sat on the bare ground and shook.

As it turned out, the dead man, Abdul Rehman Paddar, was not a Pakistani at all, nor a militant. He was a Kashmiri carpenter from a village south of here. The Indian police are now investigating whether he was killed by some of their own men, for motives that could range from personal revenge to greed. A suspected militant&#8217;s body, after all, comes with a handsome cash reward. By Saturday, four police officers were under arrest in connection with Mr. Paddar&#8217;s killing.

S. M. Sahai, the chief of police for Kashmir, said his investigators were looking into whether at least two other bodies were part of the same ring; setups like the killing of Mr. Paddar are known here as &#8220;encounter killings.&#8221; Each of the victims had been killed in operations conducted jointly by the police and either an Indian Army unit or a paramilitary force that operates under army command, he said.

By the end of the day on Saturday, as the investigation snowballed, a total of five bodies had been exhumed, all in the area surrounding Sumbal, and their identities were being checked.

The exhumations have not only unearthed a deep well of resentment among the people of Indian-administered Kashmir, but have also forced the Indian government to face anew long-simmering charges of abuse by Indian soldiers and the police.

Kashmiris have long accused the Indian authorities of disappearances and extrajudicial killings; one local human rights group estimates that 10,000 people have disappeared since the anti-Indian insurgency began here in 1989. Nor have civilians been immune to the savagery of militants; beheadings are among their favored tactics.

India blames its rival and neighbor, Pakistan, for aiding and arming the insurgents. Pakistan denies the charge, and does not recognize India&#8217;s claim to Kashmir. Claimed by both countries, Kashmir has been a center of strife for nearly 60 years. 

While the violence has calmed considerably since a 2004 peace deal between India and Pakistan, it has hardly ended the bloodshed or diminished the presence of Indian troops here. India says troop reduction can begin only when the militants lay down their weapons.

Those troops have been blamed repeatedly for human rights abuses here, most recently by a 156-page report released last October by Human Rights Watch, which detailed dozens of cases in which, it said, the state had failed to hold its security forces accountable for suspected abductions, killings and detentions.

Among the most infamous of those cases were the March 2000 killings in the southern village of Pathirabal of five men, whom the army identified as foreign terrorists responsible for a massacre of Sikh civilians. The men, whose bodies had been burned and badly mutilated, turned out to be civilians abducted by the army, according to relatives and a subsequent federal investigation. 

In a rare instance of prosecution, five Indian soldiers were charged with the killings, but the case remains stuck in the courts nearly seven years later, and the accused remain on the job. The army insists that they be tried by an internal court martial, and not a civilian court.

Human Rights Watch blamed the Indian government for what it called its &#8220;lack of commitment&#8221; to accountability and a series of Indian laws that shield soldiers in conflict zones like Kashmir. &#8220;This has led to a serious climate of impunity,&#8221; the report concluded.

Indian officials have explicitly sought to use the latest cases of encounter killings to rebut accusations of impunity, pointing out that they have taken the lead in investigating army and police officials linked to what they call isolated abuses of power. 

&#8220;This is an aberration,&#8221; Mr. Sahai, the police chief, said in an interview in his office here in the summer capital of Indian-run Kashmir. &#8220;This is not the rule. We have not tried to suppress anything. Whatever are the facts of the case have come out in the open. If we are trying to set our house in order, that should increase public confidence.&#8221;

(Page 2 of 2)



Mr. Sahai said the police were also investigating whether members of the Indian Army were complicit in Mr. Paddar&#8217;s killing. [Indian newspapers reported Monday that the army said it would conduct an internal investigation into whether its soldiers were involved.] 

The Kashmir state chief minister, Ghulam Nabi Azad, has likewise called for a judicial inquiry into the killings, promising a transparent investigation. Whether it will expand to include other suspected encounter killings remains a mystery; if it does expand, it could prove to be a public relations headache for New Delhi.

Last year, the prime minister promised zero tolerance of abuse by Indian forces in Kashmir, a pledge clearly intended to win the hearts-and-minds battle there.

The carpenter, Mr. Paddar, seems to have unwittingly instigated a test of that promise. According to interviews with the police as well as the man&#8217;s friends and relatives, Mr. Paddar appears to have been well acquainted with at least one of the policeman charged with his murder, Farooq Ahmad Paddar, a native of the same village. 

In fact, the carpenter had given the policeman roughly $1,650 in exchange for a promised government job, and for months, according to one of his relatives, the carpenter had pursued the policeman to keep his promise. The job never materialized.

One Friday last December, the policeman summoned the carpenter to a neighborhood of Srinagar, where the carpenter lived, said a co-worker who accompanied him part of the way. That&#8217;s when Mr. Paddar disappeared. 

The carpenter&#8217;s family filed a missing person report, which would have gone nowhere, like hundreds of other missing person reports in Kashmir, were it not for a police investigator who found Mr. Paddar&#8217;s cellphone in the hands of a man several miles north of here last week. 

According to investigators, the policeman gave away the carpenter&#8217;s cellphone, but only after, it seems, he and an unknown number of his colleagues shot him and gave his body to some villagers in Sumbal, a hamlet about an hour&#8217;s drive from Srinagar. They buried him. 

The police, in a joint operation with a paramilitary unit called the Central Reserve Police Force, meanwhile, issued a statement claiming responsibility for having killed a militant of Pakistani origin.

The discovery of the cellphone led police investigators to Mr. Paddar, the police officer, and three of his colleagues. Eventually, it also led investigators to other graves suspected of being linked to the same murder ring. 

According to the police, one victim was a perfume seller, who was picked up last February by the local police, the Central Reserve Police and an army unit known as the Rashtriya Rifles. Another was a local Islamic cleric, who was picked up from his home in October 2005 by the police and the Rashtriya Rifles. 

On Thursday afternoon, as teams of police and forensic investigators dug for Mr. Paddar&#8217;s remains, hundreds of angry villagers, kept away by a ring of concertina wire, shouted familiar slogans. &#8220;Azadi,&#8221; or freedom, went one chant. &#8220;Hang him,&#8221; they also yelled, referring to the killer.

In the angry tussle, bricks were thrown at the police. Tear gas was fired back. Mr. Paddar&#8217;s body, pocked with four bullets, including one that tore apart his face, was plucked out of the ground, shrouded in a white cloth, and put inside a simple wooden coffin, all before his grieving father. From the village women came songs of mourning, a familiar chorus in Kashmir

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/06/world/asia/06kashmir.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2


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## Novice09

Black Blood said:


> ^^Novice 09
> 
> That massacre was a tit for Tat !!
> 
> You killed 60k Kashmiris there is no accountability for it & you would tell us about Pandits ?
> 
> As you sow so shall you reap.
> 
> *No more BS in my Thread !!*



I think this thread is about *Kashmir*. I'm showing the other part of this story "Burning Haven". I didn't put anything else, only Kashmiri, *THE BURNING HEAVEN*.

*And my views are pro India* that is the only *difference*

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## Kompromat

*India: Hold Abusers in Kashmir Accountable 
State Government Should Repeal Immunity Laws for Soldiers
February 9, 2009*

(New York) - The newly elected Jammu and Kashmir government should hold security forces to account for human rights violations as an important confidence-building measure to promote lasting peace, Human Rights Watch said today in a letter to Chief Minister Omar Abdullah.

Human Rights Watch called for an independent, transparent, and time-bound commission to investigate allegations of enforced disappearances. The commission should be empowered to summon members of the security forces to testify and to order forensic investigations to establish the identities of those buried in unmarked graves as unidentified foreign militants.

"The new government should break with past practices and ensure that those who commit abuses are investigated and appropriately prosecuted for their crimes," said Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch. "There can be no lasting political settlement in Kashmir unless human rights abuses that have fueled the insurgency are addressed."

Human Rights Watch called for the repeal of laws such as the Jammu and Kashmir Disturbed Areas Act, the Armed Forces (Jammu and Kashmir) Special Powers Act, and the Public Safety Act. These laws provide the armed forces with extraordinary powers to search, detain, and use lethal force, leading to numerous human rights violations. They also provide immunity for security forces. Prosecutions of security force personnel, even where the facts are well established, are rare.

Human Rights Watch has, over the two decades of violence in Jammu and Kashmir, documented numerous failures to ensure protection of human rights. A September 2006 report, "&#8216;Everyone Lives in Fear': Patterns of Impunity in Jammu and Kashmir," found that the Indian army and paramilitaries, as well as the militants, many backed by Pakistan, were responsible for human rights abuses and that the political and legal systems in India and Pakistan had failed to end abuses or punish the perpetrators.

"There has been a routine failure of justice in Jammu and Kashmir," Adams said. "Chief Minister Abdullah has a historic opportunity to show that his administration will be different."


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## Kompromat

Novice09 said:


> I think this thread is about *Kashmir*. I'm showing the other part of this story "Burning Haven". I didn't put anything else, only Kashmiri, *THE BURNING HEAVEN*.
> 
> *And my views are pro India* that is the only *difference*



Starter Post #1: Dedicated Thread for Pictures and Multimedia , depicting *Indian occupation of J&K.*

Mods Please make it Sticky.
*
Everything else would be Considered a Troll.*


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## xebex

^^ This is what Kashmiris should do, go to school and get educated and support your family. Turn your face away from terrorism. See the gun, thatz for those who want to make trouble in Kashmir. And India will protect its citizens from Terrorism - AT ANY COST.period.

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## Novice09

you might have missed the above image :smile:

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## Novice09

It's *J&K Police*... Let me tell you only a resident of JAMMU AND KASHMIR is allowed to serve in J&K Police


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## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> I am also talking about Bombay Film industry....it is the largest one......search the internet....or other sources....it is popular from Nigeria to Egypt to Senegal to Pakistan and to Russia.........
> it beats hollywood in both no. of viewers & no. of films.....
> 
> 
> *Bollywood was born in 1899* with the production of a short film and *Hollywood&#8217;s birth happened 11 years later in 1910* with a Biography melodrama.
> 
> *Hollywood produces 500 films per year* on average and has a worldwide audience of* 2.6 billion* whereas *Bollywood produces more than 1000 films every year *and has a worldwide audience of* 3 Billion.* In terms of vieweship, *Bollywood overtook Hollywood in 2004 and has been leading ever since.*



Mister Abhiras from Chandigarh,

I scanned this page from Encyclopedia of Indian Cinema from our library at University of Minnesota... it shows the total output of Indian feature films from 1981 to 1995 in more than 50 languages.. Check the total output of Hindi Film Industry (Bollywood), in 1994 they produced 155 and in 1995 they produced 157... Nowhere it shows that Bollywood itself produced MORE than 1000-1200 movies per year.. Actually the output of Tamil and Telugu film industries is more than the Hindi Film Output..

http://img215.imageshack.us/i/img0003jb.jpg/

Now show me your source where Bollywood itself produces MORE THAN 1000 FILMS A YEAR!


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## jinxeD_girl

Zaki said:


> oh Jinxed Girl you are still talking about same topic
> 
> Yes because we now have so many posts off-topic may be create one another thread and move all these Bollywood merge there.
> 
> Good Idea........ but a time waste too  i know Staff isn't going to do that



yeah or just films in general.. I want to be a film maker, I love watching films from all over the world..


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## Novice09

Huriyat is not the only party in J&K...

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## Gin ka Pakistan

^^^ make a film on the Pakistan's K for international audience.


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## jinxeD_girl

EjazR said:


> I am surprised this thread hasn't been locked and some bans been handed out for going completely off topic.
> 
> JinXed_girl, you probably won't be around here for much longer, but u obviously don't realize that MA Jinnah was a 3rd generation Muslim whose family was from Gujarat. The Pakistan movement was possible only because of Muslim elite support of UP and Bihar and the Bangladeshi Muslim ancestors of today. So be thankful to them because without their contributions you would not have Pakistan.
> 
> On second thoughts, you are probably just the ABCD types so what do you care about Pakistan. Maybe you would feel happy if someone told you that "you totally look like an American, you don't look like a Pakistani at all!". Ofcourse I don't expect you to admit that here so no need to reply.



Mister Ejaz from Hyderabad ...

1. I am not American Born Confused Desi as I wasn't born in U.S.A

2. There is no such thing as you "look" American...There are Asian Americans, African Americans, White Americans, Latin Americans and so on... If you are talking about White Americans (excluding the Mediterranean belt), then I DON'T look like them at all.. I have dark hair and olive skin. People have guessed me as Brazilian, Persian, Pakistani etc but never an Indian... and unlike Priya, when people guess my country of origin incorrectly, i correct them and let them know I am from Pakistan and Pakistan is a diverse country phenotypically  Do you agree Ejaz? 

If I was an ABCD or wasn't proud of my Pakistani origins, I would never spent so much time learning about Pakistan - its history, its culture etc And as a Person who is 25&#37; Iranian, in recent years I have started to learn alot about Iran too.. Maybe I will take some classes in Persian too.  and yeah, I am proud to be an American too, it is my second home after all... 

Anywayz, talking about *"elite"* Indian Muslims... can you tell me something about your Nizam of Hyderabad and his beautiful turkish wifes and Afghan army? I have heard he was Pro-Pakistani? What happened to him and his family? Do you like him, hate him or just neutral towards him for his Pro-Pakistani stance?  Sorry, I don't know much about Hyderabad except Hyderabadi Achar (PickleS)... if something I said was factually wrong, please correct me Ejaz...


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## jinxeD_girl

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> ^^^ make a film on the Pakistan's K for international audience.



I will!!...  and another film on the "Grandeur of Hyderabad" with Ejaz playing Nizam of Hyderabad role...!  That would be an expensive film indeed!!


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## Gin ka Pakistan

jinxeD_girl said:


> I will!!...  and another film on the "Grandeur of Hyderabad" with Ejaz playing Nizam of Hyderabad role...!  That would be an expensive film indeed!!



lucky, he will have a Turkish wife in the film


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## ejaz007

jinxeD_girl said:


> I will!!...  and another film on the "Grandeur of Hyderabad" with Ejaz playing Nizam of Hyderabad role...!  That would be an expensive film indeed!!



I shall sue you for casting me without my permission


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## jinxeD_girl

jinxeD_girl said:


> Anywayz,
> 
> A newbie from India (her name is Priya) has started at our workplace today. One of my managers said that I should train her. Here is the gist of our brief conversation :-
> 
> Me = How are you?
> Priya = I am fine
> Me = Where are you from?
> Priya = Kerala, India
> Me = Oh really...  *You don't look Indian....*
> Priya (smiling a little) = What do I look like then?
> Me = You can pass off as Persian or Latin... *but you don't look Indian*
> Priya (smiling alot) = Thanks, I will take that as a compliment!
> Me = Ofcourse you should!! You don't look Indian at all!!
> Priya = You are so sweet! You want to go to lunch with me after the training? I will buy you free lunch!
> Me = No Thanks... I am going to Applebee's with my Ukrainian friends



DeathGod,

read the conversation above... Priya acknowledged that she is from Kerala, India BEFORE i mentioned you don't look Indian.. 

If I tell someone, I am from Pakistan and THEN they say "You don't look Pakistani", I won't take it as a compliment, but would correct them. tata!  I don't know how that is a compliment to begin with in the first place.. lol!


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## jinxeD_girl

ejaz007 said:


> I shall sue you for casting me without my permission



 I am talking about the Indian Ejaz from Indian Hyderabad!!


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## xebex

Kashmir Votes.























-------------------------

BB, ur pics are only one side of the coin.

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## xebex

A Kashmiri Soldier who sacrificed his life for the Nation.














Kashmiri men participate army recruitment.






A Kashmiri mom send his son for active duty.

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## sur

4 states were given option to join Pakistan or india,,,

1-hyderabad dakan 
2-manavadar 
3-junagadh
4-Kashmir

*Nawabs* of 1,, 2,, 3,,_(click blue links)_ declared union with Pakistan,,, but india conspired in all 3 cases & entered her forces into these three saying that *people* of these wanted to be with india...

While *Raja* of Kashmir declared accession to india against will of 98% muslim population,,, hypocrite india entered her forces in Kashmir based on Rajas declaration...

So this hypocrite, according to her claims, sided with "people" against the "rulers" in 3 states while in 4th state supported decision of ruler against "ppl"... So occupying all 4 territories using opposite excuses,,,

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## equiliz3r

sur said:


> 4 states were given option to join Pakistan or india,,,
> 
> 1-hyderabad dakan
> 2-manavadar
> 3-junagadh
> 4-Kashmir
> 
> *Nawabs* of 1,, 2,, 3,,_(click blue links)_ declared union with Pakistan,,, but india conspired in all 3 cases & entered her forces into these three saying that *people* of these wanted to be with india...
> 
> While *Raja* of Kashmir declared accession to india against will of 98% muslim population,,, hypocrite india entered her forces in Kashmir based on Rajas declaration...
> 
> So this hypocrite, according to her claims, sided with "people" against the "rulers" in 3 states while in 4th state supported decision of ruler against "ppl"...




all these have neutralized by Indians in many threads and still dont want to admit..................good.................dreamy world is good

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## Novice09

Duplicate entry


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## xebex

Novice09 said:


> Duplicate entry



Infact ive noticed a bunch of duplicate posts, but hey, keep shhhh.....let him have a good night sleep lol


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## sur

old video 1930s - even then occupied ... 


http://www.desivideonetwork.com/view/7rt03885e/historical-video-of-kashmir-1930s/
(see the small baby smoking "_Huk'kah_")


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## EjazR

*Self-rule only viable solution to Kashmir issue: PDP*

Jammu, Feb 28 (PTI) Opposition PDP today said the party's self-rule proposal was the only viable solution to the Kashmir problem as it aimed at addressing both internal and external dimensions of this issue.

"Self rule is a document of promises and reconciliation without any compromise with the rights of the people of Jammu and Kashmir," PDP chief Mehbooba Mufti said addressing a seminar on self rule in Bhaderwah, 220 kms from here.

"Wishes and aspirations of all regions and sub-regions have been incorporated in the self-rule document, and only through this proposal both internal and external dimensions of Kashmir problem would be addressed," she claimed.

Mufti also said the proposal would help develop the state as economic free zone to attract maximum foreign direct investment (FDI), which will ensure multi-fold development of the state.

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## Roby

jinxeD_girl said:


> Anywayz,
> 
> *A newbie from India (her name is Priya) has started at our workplace today. One of my managers said that I should train her.* Here is the gist of our brief conversation :-
> 
> Me = How are you?
> Priya = I am fine
> Me = Where are you from?
> Priya = *Kerala, India*
> Me = Oh really...  You don't look Indian....
> Priya (smiling a little) = What do I look like then?
> Me = You can pass off as *Persian* or Latin... but you don't look Indian
> Priya (smiling alot) = Thanks, I will take that as a compliment!
> Me = Ofcourse you should!! You don't look Indian at all!!
> Priya = You are so sweet! You want to go to lunch with me after the training? I will buy you free lunch!
> Me = No Thanks... I am going to Applebee's with my Ukrainian friends



well jinxe_D girl, i found a post from afghan forum same as yours. 
Only some minor changes 



> where I work.. that company have a contract with some South India Company for IT work ...
> 
> Yesterday I was talking with some* moustache covered South Indian Girl *who just started working here. Her name is Priya... I had a bet with my Pakistani friends that if i tell this new girl that she doesn't look "Indian" she will take it as a compliment.. and thats what exactly happened...
> 
> I approached Priya and asked her "where are you from?"
> Priya said "India"
> I said " Oh really? Well you dont look Indian"
> Priya (smiling little bit) - " What do I look like then?"
> I said "Well you can pass for Persian or *Italian*... but you don't look Indian at all"
> Priya (very very happy and smiling more) - "Oh really? well I take that as a compliment... Where are you from? We should hang out someday"
> 
> hhehehehehe
> 
> Indians will always take this as a compliment when you compare them with anything BUT Indian... Try it! It always work!... Some Indians get so flattered that they will even buy you free lunch or drink!!



Do you copied this or are you the same person who posted this in the afghan forum?


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## pakistanguide

nice pic ..........


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## jinxeD_girl

Roby said:


> well jinxe_D girl, i found a post from afghan forum same as yours.
> Only some minor changes
> 
> 
> 
> Do you copied this or are you the same person who posted this in the afghan forum?



Roby, You asked me that question before too and yeah I am the same girl from Afghan forum who got banned along with two Iranians Nimroo and SphagettiMonster. I think I have mentioned this several times on this forum.. No?  Are you Hindostani or Zubin from the same forum? Zubin was Sikh, you must be Hindostani... 

Please use your common sense... I am talking about 2 different Priyas (looks like it is a common name in South India?) Sorry, if I hurt your feelings, but I like doing it just for fun... 

The Priya I mentioned on Afghan forum was from Tamil Nadu


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## Roby

jinxeD_girl said:


> Roby, You asked me that question before too and yeah I am the same girl from Afghan forum who got banned along with two Iranians Nimroo and SphagettiMonster. I think I have mentioned this several times on this forum.. No?


Sorry to hear that. I thought you are not the same. Disappointed.



> Are you Hindostani or Zubin from the same forum? Zubin was Sikh, you must be Hindostani...



I am not a member in afghan forum. I just read the posts there. also I use the same username *Roby* in every forum I joined.



> Please use your common sense... I am talking about 2 different Priyas (looks like it is a common name in South India?) Sorry, if I hurt your feelings, but I like doing it just for fun...
> The Priya I mentioned on Afghan forum was from Tamil Nadu



You never hurt my feelings, because I use common sense while reading these kind of made up stories. 

Anyway carry on. Have fun.


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## jinxeD_girl

Roby said:


> Sorry to hear that. I thought you are not the same.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not a member in afghan forum. I just read the posts there. also I use the same username *Roby* in every forum I joined.
> 
> 
> 
> You never hurt my feelings, because I use common sense while reading these kind of made up stories.
> 
> Anyway carry on. Have fun.



Yeah Roby, I know you have lots of common sense, but the stories certainly are not made up. Don't you have "naughty" side and like playing pranks on people sometimes.. I am sure you do... everyone does. And telling Indian she/he doesn't look like Indian is one of my favorite pranks.

Our company have outsourced lots of jobs to South India, and everyday we see some new Priya and Ajay.. At our workplace we have 3 Priyas now... we call them Priya1, Priya2 and Priya3. Besides their names... you know what else is common among them? Guess!!

Moustache!


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## paritosh

jinxeD_girl said:


> Our company have outsourced lots of jobs to South India, and everyday we see some new Priya and Ajay.. At our workplace we have 3 Priyas now... we call them Priya1, Priya2 and Priya3. Besides their names... you know what else is common among them? Guess!!
> 
> Moustache!



so the olive skin...is it because of 25&#37; persian or the 75% Pakistan?
yeah the damn moustache...!!tell me about it...our Indian variant can not be killed!
whatever you use...it stays there...the friggin DRDO creams...!
btw..
Priya 4,5,6 and 7 that work in my office have hideous beards...
maybe you should try aishwarya 9...also from south India...full satisfaction guaranteed...!

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## paritosh

jinxeD_girl said:


> Kashmiri girlz are very pretty... I have several Kashmiri friends... But Bengali and Gujarati girlz...



all the pretty gurrls are your friends...and all the Indian butt-ugly girls are there to be made fun off...
you make friends based on their looks..
you bully newbies in your office...
you honestly need to see a shrink for your own good...
or maybe you are still a teen...or maybe you are a budding eccentric film-maker...being eccentric does a world of good if you want to make films...
but more often than not...lands you in trouble...with other _dissimilar _people and in the morbid vastness and your own mental vortex...with your own dissimilar self...


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## Roby

jinxeD_girl said:


> Yeah Roby, I know you have lots of common sense, but the stories certainly are not made up. Don't you have "naughty" side and like playing pranks on people sometimes.. I am sure you do... everyone does. And telling Indian she/he doesn't look like Indian is one of my favorite pranks.
> 
> Our company have outsourced lots of jobs to South India, and everyday we see some new Priya and Ajay.. At our workplace we have 3 Priyas now... we call them Priya1, Priya2 and Priya3. Besides their names... you know what else is common among them? Guess!!
> 
> Moustache!



I do like playing pranks , but making fun of peoples physical appearance is not a good thing to do IMHO and I believe it is racism.

Any way we better stop here, the thread is about some K in Pakistan. 
Thanks.


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## jinxeD_girl

paritosh said:


> all the pretty gurrls are your friends...and all the Indian butt-ugly girls are there to be made fun off...
> you make friends based on their looks..
> you bully newbies in your office...
> you honestly need to see a shrink for your own good...
> or maybe you are still a teen...or maybe you are a budding eccentric film-maker...being eccentric does a world of good if you want to make films...
> but more often than not...lands you in trouble...with other _dissimilar _people and in the morbid vastness and your own mental vortex...with your own dissimilar self...



You got that wrong.. Pari boy! All the pretty girlz are not my friends... but those girlz are my friends with whom I share alot in common  Kashmiris and Punjabis share more in common as compared to someone from South India, so it is natural when we see each other we become friends.. Even historically, Kashmir, Punjab versus South India have never been part of same empires except perhaps Mughal and British Empire.. We have been isolated from each other for most of the history...

I don't bully people, I only play pranks on them sometimes. I mean I am not trying to sabotage the career of Priya 3. You know what I mean ?


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## Windjammer

Roby said:


> Any way we better stop here, the thread is about some K in Pakistan.
> Thanks.



Better late then never.............

Glad you realized that.


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## jinxeD_girl

Roby said:


> I do like playing pranks , but making fun of peoples physical appearance is not a good thing to do IMHO and I believe it is racism.
> 
> Any way we better stop here, the thread is about some K in Pakistan.
> Thanks.



Huh! Making fun of someone over which someone has no control counts as racism. I agree! But, moustache over which every girl and boy have full control and they can easily get rid of... is not racism.. Don't give excuses for bad grooming habits. If someone doesn't take bath for weeks, and people don't want to sit next to that person ... then that doesn't count as racism! That count as bad grooming!

Anywayz... I have befriended Priya 3.. and I am taking her to Spalon Salon this weekend.. She should get a menicure, pedicure, and that moustache has to go! No excuse for girl's moustache! I am telling ya! I won't let her represent India with a moustache!


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## jinxeD_girl

Now.. all of you please stick to the topic - The "K" in Pakistan and I will post some pictures of Kashmir too when I go home... !!


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## Valiant_Soul

jinxeD_girl said:


> Hitler wanted to eliminate certain races... in my case I want to avoid them.. Not the same thing!!



Now that is not being honest. If you want to ignore them why talk about them? It is not civil to compare people on the basis of their origin or race in a manner that belittles them. Do you honestly think that it is a good thing to do and that in anyway helps you to become a decent person? "Having fun with people" and "making fun of people" are two very different things, and the former is undoubtedly the way to go. 

P.S. I am expecting a change of heart.

EDIT: Looking at your last few posts, I think you are well on the way.


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## DeathGod

I was thinking that K in pakistan might stand for Kuwait. Afterall pakistan will change her name to United States Of Islam in 2XXX or maybe 3XXX. Although Kashmir is beautiful I think for Pakistan to have Kashmir and fulfill its K in that manner wont be possible. Maybe they can make Karachi a state and then complete the K in pakistan.

P- Peshawar , A - Attock ,K-Karachi , I-Islamabad , S - Sargodha , T - Taxila, A -Abbottabad , N- Nawabshah


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## EjazR

*Stone pelting is un-Islamic: Kashmiri cleric | TwoCircles.net*

By IANS,

New Delhi : Terming stone pelting as a form of protest un-Islamic, the Grand Mufti of Jammu and Kashmir, Maulana Bashir-ud-Din, Wednesday said such violent practices were against the basic tenets of the religion whose essence is "peace and brotherhood".

"Islam strongly prohibits any means of violence. The stone pelting practice is surely un-Islamic. It causes inconvenience to people and propels more violence," the Grand Mufti told IANS here.

Bashir-ud-Din heads the Sharia court of Jammu and Kashmir and is also the president of the state Personal Law Board.

He is authorised to make decisions on Islamic law and issue fatwas - religious edicts.

Asked if he had issued a fatwa against stone pelting, which some separatists justify as a form of resistance, the mufti said: "What I am saying is not my personal opinion. I, as a Grand Mufti, am making it clear. When Islam doesn't advocate or justify any violence, how can you justify stone pelting? I am saying this in the light of Hadith (sayings of the Prophet) and the holy Quran.

"Islam is the religion of peace and brotherhood," he added, strongly condemning the practice which over the past two years has become a norm in the troubled state, especially on Fridays.

After the weekly Friday prayers, streets of downtown in Srinagar and parts of Lal Chowk surge with masked youths, mostly in their teens.

They throw stones at police and paramilitary personnel, triggering clashes. Security forces, in return, use tear gas and sometimes even open fire at the protestors.

Recently, a young boy in Old Srinagar was killed when he was hit by a tear gas shell. In another incident, a 10-day-old ailing baby died when a vehicle carrying him and his parents to a hospital was stopped by stone throwers in Kashmir's Baramulla district Feb 21.

The mufti said the stone pelting had taken a form of alternative employment in Jammu and Kashmir and the government needed to "nip the evil in the bud".

"They (stone throwers) are paid for what they are doing. What do you do about that? Give Kashmiri youth jobs so that they don't look for unlawful ways of earning," he said.

The mufti was in the national capital to meet Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Congress president Sonia Gandhi and Home Minister P. Chidambaram.

"I will meet them to urge for a dialogue process with every shades of opinion in the state to solve the (Kashmir) issue," he said.

The mufti also condemned the killing of teenage Zahid Farooq, allegedly shot dead by Border Security Forces personnel last month. An official of the border guards has been arrested for the killing.

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## EjazR

Local media report

*Mufti Azam&#8217;s mission Delhi | Greater Kashmir Daily English Newspaper from Kashmir Online News Channel - Daily News - Live Updates*

_Seeks Involvement Of Religious Leaders In Peace Process, Declares Stone Pelting Un-Islamic_
*Meeting PM, Sonia, PC*
New Delhi, Mar 10: Terming stone pelting as a form of protest un-Islamic, the Grand Mufti of Jammu and Kashmir, Mufti Azam Mufti Bashir-ud-Din, on Wednesday said such violent practices were against the basic tenets of the religion whose essence is &#8220;peace and brotherhood&#8221;.
&#8220;Islam strongly prohibits any means of violence. The stone pelting practice is surely un-Islamic. It causes inconvenience to people and propels more violence,&#8221; the Grand Mufti said.
Bashir-ud-Din heads the Sharia court of Jammu and Kashmir and is also the president of the state Personal Law Board. Asked if he had issued a Fatwa against stone pelting, which some separatists
justify as a form of resistance, the Mufti said: &#8220;What I am saying is not my personal opinion. I, as a Grand Mufti, am making it clear. When Islam doesn&#8217;t advocate or justify any violence, how can you justify stone pelting? I am saying this in the light of Hadith (sayings of the Prophet) and the holy Quran.
&#8220;Islam is the religion of peace and brotherhood,&#8221; he added, strongly condemning the practice which over the past two years has become a norm in the troubled state, especially on Fridays.
The Mufti said the stone pelting had taken a form of alternative employment in Jammu and Kashmir and the government needed to &#8220;nip the evil in the bud&#8221;.
&#8220;They (stone throwers) are paid for what they are doing. What do you do about that? Give Kashmiri youth jobs so that they don&#8217;t look for unlawful ways of earning,&#8221; he said.
The Mufti was in the national capital to meet Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Congress president Sonia Gandhi and Home Minister P Chidambaram.
&#8220;I will meet them to urge for a dialogue process with every shade of opinion in the state to solve the Kashmir issue,&#8221; he said.
Noting that dialogue is the only solution to any problem, the Mufti said that he has asked the Centre to involve the religious leaders from the state in peace and confidence building efforts there.
&#8220;No attempt is being made to encourage the civil society in Kashmir to play its role in peace and confidence building attempts among the disgruntled groups of the state,&#8221; he said and added the Centre should involve religious leaders in peace building as the religious leaders are honest and not hypocrite. &#8220;So, they can play a good role.&#8221;
The Mufti said he met Chidambaram last Friday and informed him about the willingness of Kashmiri religious leaders to be part of the peace process in the state. &#8220;It was good,&#8221; he said, referring to his 30-minutes meeting with Chidambaram.
&#8220;I have some proposals (regarding Kashmir) and I have told the Union Home Minister that I will disclose them during my meeting with the Prime Minister,&#8221; he said.
The Mufti said in his meeting with the Home Minister he urged him to institute an inquiry regarding 7,000 missing persons in Jammu and Kashmir so that the facts are revealed about their whereabouts and fate. He also said the government must adopt policy of &#8220;zero tolerance&#8221; against the violators of human rights in the state.
&#8220;No one in Jammu and Kashmir is ready to share information about these missing persons. Most of the disappeared were reportedly picked up by the security forces,&#8221; he said while interacting with the media persons here.
The Mufti said that the family members of the missing persons are running from the pillar to the post to ascertain the facts about their kith and kin.
The Mufti said he also raised the issue of the recent killing of two innocent teenagers by the security forces in the Kashmir valley with the Home Minister, demanding action against the culprits. &#8220;These are gross human rights violations,&#8221; he said.
He said violation of human rights by the security forces causes unrest in the valley. He also stated that the present coalition government in the state has failed to perform and restore confidence of the common people.
He severely criticised the west for maligning Islam, stating that Islam is the most peaceful religion in the World.


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## gubbi

Ok, Ejaz, isnt stone-pelting considered a sacred ritual during Hajj, wherein you stone the devil?

Some people in Kashmir consider the Indian forces as "occupying force" and hence in their eyes it signifies the Devil and hence stone pelting. So why call that act un-Islamic? I may be wrong, lemme know if thats the case.

Unless it has to do with the recent death of an infant at the hands of such idiotic protesters during a 'bandh' incident. Either that, or the Grand Mufti knows that many of these 'protesters' are just trouble-makers and wants to help end the menace for a peaceful Kashmir.


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## jinxeD_girl

Valiant_Soul said:


> Now that is not being honest. If you want to ignore them why talk about them? It is not civil to compare people on the basis of their origin or race in a manner that belittles them. Do you honestly think that it is a good thing to do and that in anyway helps you to become a decent person? "Having fun with people" and "making fun of people" are two very different things, and the former is undoubtedly the way to go.
> 
> P.S. I am expecting a change of heart.
> 
> EDIT: Looking at your last few posts, I think you are well on the way.




Ok Valiant I will try to be honest... well a little honest!!  I try to avoid them but like to talk about them...  or I like to avoid them but try to talk about them ?  Anywayz, I am trying my best to be nice to Priya and taking her to Salon this weekend. I will groom her like Dharmendra did to Hema Malini in Raja Jani... that moustache have to go!!


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## jinxeD_girl

DeathGod said:


> I was thinking that K in pakistan might stand for Kuwait. Afterall pakistan will change her name to United States Of Islam in 2XXX or maybe 3XXX. Although Kashmir is beautiful I think for Pakistan to have Kashmir and fulfill its K in that manner wont be possible. Maybe they can make Karachi a state and then complete the K in pakistan.
> 
> P- Peshawar , A - Attock ,K-Karachi , I-Islamabad , S - Sargodha , T - Taxila, A -Abbottabad , N- Nawabshah



I don't know what "IN" and "IA" stands for in INDIA.. but I can guess what middle "D" stands for in INDIA... D for Dravidia or United stated of Dravidians..


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## jinxeD_girl

WindJammer, are we just posting the pics of Azad Kashmir or Indian occupied Kashmir too ? 

http://img684.imageshack.us/i/shalamarbaghinkashmir19.jpg/

http://img519.imageshack.us/i/jk3.jpg/


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## Valiant_Soul

jinxeD_girl said:


> Anywayz, I am trying my best to be nice to Priya and taking her to Salon this weekend. I will groom her like Dharmendra did to Hema Malini in Raja Jani... that moustache have to go!!



Way to go! But why do you have to try to be nice, unless she is hostile to you. Be nice, plain and simple. 

P.S. Do ask her whether she wants to continue with the mustache or not. Otherwise, who knows, she might come after your pony-tail.


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## jinxeD_girl

Valiant_Soul said:


> Way to go! But why do you have to try to be nice, unless she is hostile to you. Be nice, plain and simple.
> 
> P.S. *Do ask her whether she wants to continue with the mustache or not.* Otherwise, who knows, she might come after your pony-tail.



Well, of course I can't get rid of her moustache unless she is willing. I lectured her about good grooming skills... like taking bath everyday, not putting tons of oil on her hair etc etc... She was kinda reluctant to get rid of her moustache, but i told her that majority of men even south indian men don't like moustache and finally she agreed to get rid of it. How do YOU know I have a ponytail ? 

Now sticking back to topic.. more pics of Kashmir 

Ladakh

http://img27.imageshack.us/i/ladakhcrossroadsofhigha.jpg/


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## jinxeD_girl

Ladakh People

http://img6.imageshack.us/i/ladakhpeople.jpg/


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## EjazR

Hi gubbi,

Big difference there. It is only symbolic and not thrown on people during the ritual.

This is not a new stand. Even if there is say Jihad justified and the security forces were suppressing religious freedom in J&K than the fight should be a proper fight not throwing stones. It is pertinent to note that many ulema from Indian and within J&K have said that there is no Jihad here. Some Pakistani ulema have also agreed with this view. Others like Maududi also have said a similar thing. So at prestn there is no justification to call for armed Jihad as there is no supression of religious freedom. J&K police consists of large number of locals and the govt. itself is made up of locals.

Some links about this:
*http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/archives/archives2008/kashmir20080228d.html*


The main hadith quoted in the fatwa was


> Sahih Muslim Book 21, Number 4808:
> 
> Sa'id b. Jubair reported that. a near one of 'Abdullah b. Mughaffal threw pebbles. He prohibited him (to do so). He said that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) had prohibited the throwing of pebbles by saying: It does not catch the game, nor does it inflict defeat on the enemy, but breaks the tooth and puts the eye out. He (the near one of Abdullah b. Mughadal) again repeated it (the act of throwing of pebbles) whereupon he said: I narrate to you that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon hish) disliked and prohibited throwing of pebbles, but I see you again throwing pebbles; I (would therefore) not speak with you.


-------------------------------

Here are older reports on the same issue back in 2008-09
*Pelting stones un-Islamic: J&K cops&#8217; weapon is the hadith*

*Is stone-pelting Islamic: Kashmiri separatists debate - Express India*

As you can see, even the moderate separatist Mirwaiz backed the hadith and agreed with the fatwa and urged youth not to indulge in stone pelting.

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## Creder

is the mufti high of halwa or something ?


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## FireFighter

Mufti from Kashmir has cleverly crafted his words. One must read them carefully. 


Pelting stones as a form of Political protest can be argued as un-islamic, BUT pelting stones as a form of resistance could never be unislamic. 


Also, the Mufti has not specified that pelting stones against the Occupational forces to be unIslamic. 


*The media discreetly mentions about the issue of 7000+ missing/kidnapped Kashmiris at the hands of Indian Occupation Forces, which was really the main issue that the Mufti went to discuss. *

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## EjazR

^^^Well if you look at the hadith quoted it doesn't even justify it for fighting with he enemy. 

Also, he has come forward to get religious leaders involved in the peace process as well. At least it will in marginalizing people like Geelani e.t.c. who have been involved in corrupt practices and using the problems for their own benefit. Mirwaiz Farooq will also be supported from intimidation I hope as he is one of the few separatists who has been honest throughout.

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## Thunder Omni Role

It is not up to kids and civilians to take up battle cry and responsibilities of Jihad. Also if you look at history, jahils of Arabia would pelt our beloved Nabi Rasool Allah (SAW) with stones. It is a kufr tradition, stone throwing only allowed in Islam as symbolic means of hitting back at the devil. And this also takes place once a year in strict environment. 

Drop the rocks, pick up pens.

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## Valiant_Soul

jinxeD_girl said:


> Well, of course I can't get rid of her moustache unless she is willing. I lectured her about good grooming skills... like taking bath everyday, not putting tons of oil on her hair etc etc... She was kinda reluctant to get rid of her moustache, but i told her that majority of men even south indian men don't like moustache and finally she agreed to get rid of it.



Is she a girl from a village? Oh and do also lecture her that she should not consider anyone inferior, including yourself, that is bad manners. 



> How do YOU know I have a ponytail ?



I have seen you? Then either you are a tom-boy or you have bushy hair that you cannot comb. Seems like your tall claims of being good looking are not so tall after all.


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## jinxeD_girl

Valiant_Soul said:


> Is she a girl from a village? Oh and do also lecture her that she should not consider anyone inferior, including yourself, that is bad manners.



I am lecturing her on lots of things... I don't consider her inferior, but ironically she considers me superior..  That is why she has started taking my advice, and she looks up to me as a role model.... After getting rid of that moustache, I will teach her some table manners how to dress up and how to attend upper class parties... I don't know much about Kerala? Is it mostly a village? 





> I have seen you? Then either you are a tom-boy or you have bushy hair that you cannot comb. Seems like your tall claims of being good looking are not so tall after all.



Well, you said, I have a ponytail and I asked how do you know that? You have never seen me.. Don't tell me you are some creepy stalker... 
 I personally HATE stalkers...


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## Valiant_Soul

jinxeD_girl said:


> I am lecturing her on lots of things... I don't consider her inferior, but ironically she considers me superior..  That is why she has started taking my advice, and she looks up to me as a role model.... After getting rid of that moustache, I will teach her some table manners how to dress up and how to attend upper class parties... I don't know much about Kerala? Is it mostly a village?



The way you are describing her seems like she is a village girl. Urban girls do not need such basic grooming. So it is obvious that you are her role model. 



> Well, you said, I have a ponytail and I asked how do you know that? You have never seen me.. Don't tell me you are some creepy stalker...



I am much more than a stalker and you are in great danger. Keep good vigil!


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## DeathGod

jinxeD_girl said:


> I don't know what "IN" and "IA" stands for in INDIA.. but I can guess what middle "D" stands for in INDIA... D for Dravidia or United stated of Dravidians..



Wrong ...... Try Again....

and while you are at it.. try not being a RACIST jack


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## jinxeD_girl

Valiant_Soul said:


> The way you are describing her seems like she is a village girl. Urban girls do not need such basic grooming. So it is obvious that you are her role model.



Whats the definition of village belle?  I don't think a girl who wears pant shirt to work and speaks english can be considered as village belle? I have never been to Kerala or Tamil Nadu.. but do village girlz over there wear pant shirt and speak english? 

The Punjabi Village belles or Mutiyars from our Punjab are not that modern yet...


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## Hyde

Ladakh is beautiful

When i see Occupied Kashmir.......... that song start coming in my mind

"Meray Watan teri jannat main aayenge ik din" and i feel sorry for my Kashmiri brothers


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## Abhiras

Zaki said:


> Ladakh is beautiful
> 
> When i see Occupied Kashmir.......... that song start coming in my mind
> 
> "Meray Watan teri jannat main aayenge ik din" and i feel sorry for my Kashmiri brothers


BIG MISTAKE
Ladakh is in free kashmir....

You can ask people living in ladakh what freedom means to them....

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## Abhiras




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## Kompromat

^^^ Are they beting up the protestors ?


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## Abhiras

^^^^^^^^^^^^

they are maintaining law and order...does not matter the protesters are pro indians or pro kashmir


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## Abhiras

^^^^^^^^^^

have not you noticed a pro-indian protester with indian flag in his hand....which he is raising towards the heaven


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## jha

good work novice,xebex and abhiras..

will come with my contribution tomorrow..

here are some..


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## Valiant_Soul

jinxeD_girl said:


> Whats the definition of village belle?  I don't think a girl who wears pant shirt to work and speaks english can be considered as village belle? I have never been to Kerala or Tamil Nadu.. but do village girlz over there wear pant shirt and speak english?
> 
> The Punjabi Village belles or Mutiyars from our Punjab are not that modern yet...



Definition of village girl? Simply the girl who comes from village. 

Kerala is the most educated state and has literacy rate of over 91%, so I would not be surprised if she speaks English and wears modern dresses, even though coming from a village. Since she is literate and must have good qualifications to be there, she can easily slip into the dress code of her resident nation. While in India, she might prefer local dresses.

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## jha




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## karan.1970

Zaki said:


> Ladakh is beautiful
> 
> When i see Occupied Kashmir.......... that song start coming in my mind
> 
> "Meray Watan teri jannat main aayenge ik din" and i feel sorry for my Kashmiri brothers



The only occupied Kashmir I am aware of is the Pakist an occupied Ka shmir. Why would you feel sorry for people living there??


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## jha

Jammu Kashmir Police Force soldiers participate in a rehearsal ahead of the Independence Day celebrations

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## jha

Cadets of the National Cadets Corps march during a rehearsal ahead of the Independence Day celebrations


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## Valiant_Soul

karan.1970 said:


> The only occupied Kashmir I am aware of is the Pakist an occupied Ka shmir. Why would you feel sorry for people living there??



Because DAWN said that there condition is bad?


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## jha

Wrapped in Tricolor, Shabbir Ahmad Malik comes home, martyred


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## Abhiras

amarnath yatra....people from all over india come for this yatra to kashmir...they reach lord amarnath(shiv) temple after day of travel

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## jha

New recruits of the Indian paramilitary Border Security Force look on during the passing out parade ceremony in Humhama

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## jha

A new recruit of the Indian paramilitary Border Security Force shouts an order during the passing out parade ceremony

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## karan.1970

Dont know about Heaven, but someone's something is certainly on fire ... Got an urge to open a similar thead on Burning Pakistan, but then the pics I collected were too gory and troubling..Definitely like the postive spin from Jha, novice,xebex and abhiras. Keep it up guys..

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## Hyde

karan.1970 said:


> The only occupied Kashmir I am aware of is the Pakist an occupied Ka shmir. Why would you feel sorry for people living there??



i know what is truth........ didn't even want to argue with you guyz again n again and i am also aware of the fact that you guyz know yourself which part is occupied and which is a free Kashmir and on many ocassions you have also accepted that the large number of Kashmirs do not want to stay with India. It is the patriotism that makes you believe what you have mentioned above

Nothing wrong with that...... but the truth is truth....... it never changes by your sayings or mine


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## Abhiras

Iqbal library of University of Kashmir

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## Valiant_Soul

Zaki, do you have the same sentiments for Tibet?


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## Hyde

Valiant_Soul said:


> Zaki, do you have the same sentiments for Tibet?



i have nothing to do with Tibet. I don't like talking about the issue that has nothing to do with me or my country. I am well aware of the situation of Tibet but don't like giving my opinion on that

China and India can solve this matter themselves


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## Kompromat

*Thread and some MEMBERS who have not paid any Heed to my Soft warning are going to be Treated soon.*


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## Abhiras

Zaki said:


> i know what is truth........ didn't even want to argue with you guyz again n again and i am also aware of the fact that you guyz know yourself which part is occupied and which is a free Kashmir and on many ocassions you have also accepted that the large number of Kashmirs do not want to stay with India. It is the patriotism that makes you believe what you have mentioned above
> 
> Nothing wrong with that...... but the truth is truth....... it never changes by your sayings or mine




at-least all neutral reports claim indian kashmir is in better condition then pakistan occupied kashmir

and these neutral source include noble prize winner - 'United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees'


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## Kompromat

jha said:


> New recruits of the Indian paramilitary Border Security Force look on during the passing out parade ceremony in Humhama


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## Abhiras

Black Blood said:


> *Thread and some MEMBERS who have not paid any Heed to my Soft warning are going to be Treated soon.*


kya hua yaar, we had keeping our point.........
you should justify the 'burning'
& we are justifying the 'heavens'

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## Hyde

Abhiras said:


> at-least all neutral reports claim indian kashmir is in better condition then pakistan occupied kashmir
> 
> and these neutral source include noble prize winner - 'United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees'



oh well i have read dozens of nuteral reports and almost all of them said peoples in Pakistani side of Kashmir are in far better condition

I don't know which and when and where did you hear that 

Peoples in Pakistani side Kashmir do not even consider themselves Kashmiris. They are just like Pakistanis trust me........ you have neve been there you have no idea about the Pakistani side of Kashmir

Last post here for now


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## Kompromat

*This Thread is not for your GOD damn soldier parade so stop Posting your BS and refer to Post #1. *


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## Abhiras

Black Blood said:


>


 these are not robots ,these are new recruits
see the passion

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## Kompromat

Abhiras said:


> kya hua yaar, we had keeping our point.........
> you should justify the 'burning'
> & we are justifying the 'heavens'



You must stick to the Topic nothing more Nothing less.


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## Abhiras

*"Dedicated Thread for Pictures and Multimedia , depicting Indian occupation of J&K."*
so..you have no problem with my pro-indian kashmiri support pictures??

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## Kompromat

Indeed and this is what this thread is FOR !


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## EagleEyes

Pictures of soldiers are fine. It does depicts occupation of Kashmir in the IOK.


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## jha

with a twist- the soldiers are kashmiris who have lined up to get recruited in BSF and JK police force..


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## Kompromat

*2700 unmarked graves discovered in Indian Held Kashmir* 



A human rights group in Kashmir urged authorities to launch a probe into 2,700 unmarked graves believed to be people who died as a result of the region's revolt against Indian rule. Srinagar, India. 2/12/2009.

In occupied Kashmir, 2,700 unmarked graves containing over 2,943 bodies across 55 villages in three districts, Bandipore, Baramulla and Kupwara have been discovered.
The Srinagar based human rights group, International People&#8217;s Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice for Kashmir (IPTJ) in its report released today in a press conference claimed that the graves could be of those missing from the custody of Indian troops. Rights groups put their numbers at ten thousand. The report is based on research between November 2006 and November 2009 and has been authored by prominent human rights activists of India and occupied Kashmir, Angana P. Chatterji, Parvez Imroz, Gautam Navlakha, Zahir-Ud-Din, Mihir Desai, and Khurram Parvez.

112-page dossier, titled &#8216;Buried Evidence&#8217; was released at a press conference in Srinagar today by Angna Chatterjee, the convener of the group. The report documents in considerable detail how the actions of Indian military and paramilitary forces in Kashmir inflict terror on the local population, killed through extra-judicial means.
The detailed press note issued in Srinagar at the press conference is as follows:

BURIED EVIDENCE is authored by Angana P. Chatterji, Parvez Imroz, Gautam Navlakha, Zahir-Ud-Din, Mihir Desai, and Khurram Parvez.
[Dr. Angana P. Chatterji is Convener IPTK and Professor, Anthropology, California Institute of Integral Studies.
Advocate Parvez Imroz is Convener IPTK and Founder, Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society.
Gautam Navlakha is Convener IPTK and Editorial Consultant, Economic and Political Weekly.
Zahir-Ud-Din is Convener IPTK and Vice-President, Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society.
Advocate Mihir Desai is Legal Counsel IPTK and Lawyer, Mumbai High Court and Supreme Court of India.
Khurram Parvez is Liaison IPTK and Programme Coordinator, Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society.]

Findings
The graveyards investigated by IPTK entomb bodies of those murdered in encounter and fake encounter killings between 1990-2009. These graves include bodies of extrajudicial, summary, and arbitrary executions, as well as massacres committed by the Indian military and paramilitary forces.

Of these graves, 2,373 (87.9 percent) were unnamed. Of these graves, 154 contained two bodies each and 23 contained more than two cadavers. Within these 23 graves, the number of bodies ranged from 3 to 17.

A mass grave may be identified as containing more than one, and usually unidentified, human cadaver. Scholars refer to mass graves as resulting from crimes against humanity, war crimes, or genocide. If the intent of a mass grave is to execute death with impunity, with intent to kill more than one, and to forge an unremitting representation of death, then, to that extent, the graves in Bandipora, Baramulla, and Kupwara are part of a collective burial by India&#8217;s military and paramilitary, creating a landscape of &#8220;mass burial.&#8221;

Post-death, the bodies of the victims were routinely handled by military and paramilitary personnel, including the local police. The bodies were then brought to the &#8220;secret graveyards&#8221; primarily by personnel of the Jammu and Kashmir Police. The graves were constructed by local gravediggers and caretakers, buried individually when possible, and specifically not en mass, in keeping with Islamic religious sensibilities.

The graves, with few exceptions, hold bodies of men. Violence against civilian men has expanded spaces for enacting violence against women. Women have been forced to disproportionately assume the task of caregiving to disintegrated families and undertake the work of seeking justice following disappearances and deaths. These graveyards have been placed next to fields, schools, and homes, largely on community land, and their affect on the local community is daunting.

The Indian Armed Forces and the Jammu and Kashmir Police routinely claim the dead buried in unknown and unmarked graves to be &#8220;foreign militants/terrorists.&#8221; They claim that the dead were unidentified foreign or Kashmiri militants killed while infiltrating across the border areas into Kashmir or travelling from Kashmir into Pakistan to seek arms training. Official state discourse conflates cross-border militancy with present nonviolent struggles by local Kashmiri groups for political and territorial self-determination, portraying local resistance as &#8220;terrorist&#8221; activity. 

Exhumation and identification have not occurred in sizeable cases. Where they have been undertaken, in various instances, &#8220;encounter&#8221; killings across Kashmir have, in fact, been authenticated as &#8220;fake encounter&#8221; killings. In instances where, post-burial, bodies have been identified, two methods have been used prevalently. These are 1. Exhumation; and 2. Identification through the use of photographs.

The report also examines 50 alleged &#8220;encounter&#8221; killings by Indian security forces in numerous districts in Kashmir. Of these persons, 39 were of Muslim descent; 4 were of Hindu descent; 7 were not determined. Of these cases, 49 were labelled militants/foreign insurgents by security forces and one body that was drowned. Of these, following investigations, 47 were found killed in fake encounters and one was identifiable as a local militant.

IPTK has been able to study only partial areas within 3 of 10 districts in Kashmir, and our findings and very preliminary evidence point to the severity of existing conditions. If independent investigations were to be undertaken in all 10 districts, it is reasonable to assume that the 8,000+ enforced disappearances since 1989 would correlate with the number of bodies in unknown, unmarked, and mass graves.

Allegations
The methodical and planned use of killing and violence in Indian-administered Kashmir constitutes crimes against humanity in the context of an ongoing conflict. The Indian state&#8217;s governance of Indian-administered Kashmir requires the use of discipline and death as techniques of social control. Discipline is affected through military presence, surveillance, punishment, and fear. Death is disbursed through &#8220;extrajudicial&#8221; means and those authorized by law. These techniques of rule are used to kill, and create fear of not just death but of murder.

Mass and intensified extrajudicial killings have been part of a sustained and widespread offensive by the military and paramilitary institutions of the Indian state against civilians of Jammu and Kashmir. IPTK asks that the evidence put forward in this report be examined, verified, and reframed as relevant by credible, independent, and international bodies, and that international institutions ask that the Government of India comply with such investigations.

We note that the international community and institutions have not examined the supposition of crimes against humanity in Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir. We note that the United Nations and its member states have remained ineffective in containing and halting the adverse consequences of the Indians state&#8217;s militarization in Kashmir.

We ask that evidence from unknown, unmarked, and mass graves in Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir be used to seek justice, through the sentencing of criminals and other judicial and social processes. As well, the existence of these graves, and how they came to be, may be understood as indicative of the effects and issue of militarization, and the issues pertaining to militarization itself must be addressed seriously and expeditiously.

The violences of militarization in Indian-administered Kashmir, between 1989-2009, have resulted in 70,000+ deaths, including through extrajudicial or &#8220;fake encounter&#8221; executions, custodial brutality, and other means. In the enduring conflict, 6, 67,000 military and paramilitary personnel continue to act with impunity to regulate movement, law, and order across Kashmir. The Indian state itself, through its legal, political, and military actions, has demonstrated the existence of a state of continuing conflict within Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir

http://www.demotix.com/news/2700-unmarked-graves-discovered-indian-held-kashmir


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## Abhiras




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## Abhiras




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## Kompromat

*Thousands lost in Kashmir mass graves*






Hundreds of unidentified graves &#8211; believed to contain victims of unlawful killings, enforced disappearances, torture and other abuses - have been found in Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir.

Amnesty International has urged the Indian government to launch urgent investigations into the mass graves, which are thought to contain the remains of victims of human rights abuses in the context of the armed conflict that has raged in the region since 1989.

The findings appear in the report Facts under Ground, issued on 29 March by the Srinagar-based Association of the Parents of Disappeared Persons (APDP). The report details the existence of multiple graves which, because of their proximity to Pakistan controlled-areas, are in areas not accessible without the specific permission of the security forces. Since 2006, the graves of at least 940 people are reported to have been discovered in 18 villages in Uri district alone.

The Indian army has claimed that those found buried were armed rebels and "foreign militants" killed lawfully in armed encounters with military forces. However, the report recounts testimonies from local villagers saying that most buried were local residents hailing from the state. 

The report alleges that more than 8,000 persons have gone missing in Jammu and Kashmir since 1989. The Indian authorities put the figure at less than 4.000, claiming that most of these went to Pakistan to join armed opposition groups. 

In 2006, a state police report confirmed the deaths in custody of 331 persons, and also 111 enforced disappearances following detention since 1989.

Unlawful killings, enforced disappearances and torture are violations of both international human rights law and international humanitarian law, set out in treaties to which India is a state party. They also constitute international crimes.

Amnesty International has called on the Indian government to unequivocally condemn enforced disappearances in Jammu and Kashmir and ensure that prompt, thorough, independent and impartial investigations into all sites of mass graves in the region are immediately carried out by forensic experts in line with the relevant UN Model Protocol.

All past and current allegations of enforced disappearances must be investigated and, where there is sufficient evidence, anyone suspected of responsibility for such crimes must be prosecuted in fair trial proceedings, with all victims granted full reparations.

Thousands lost in Kashmir mass graves | Amnesty International


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## Kompromat

*Investigate mass graves in Kashmir and Jammu*

Dear Prime Minister
I am writing to urge that the Government of India conduct urgent investigations into hundreds of unidentified graves discovered since 2006 in Jammu and Kashmir. These investigations must be independent, impartial and follow international standards.
The grave sites are believed to contain the remains of victims of unlawful killings, enforced disappearances, torture and other abuses which occurred in the context of armed conflict persisting in the state since 1989. The graves of at least 940 persons have reportedly been found in 18 villages in Uri district alone.
Unlawful killings, enforced disappearances and torture are violations of both international human rights law and international humanitarian law, set out in treaties to which India is a state party and in customary international law. They also constitute international crimes.
I therefore urge you to:
&#8226; ensure that prompt, thorough, independent and impartial investigations into all sites of mass graves in Jammu and Kashmir are immediately carried out by forensic experts in line with UN Model Protocol on the disinterment and analysis of skeletal remains; make available adequate resources; and seek and accept offers of assistance and cooperation from international experts, both in carrying out the work itself, and in training local personnel engaged in the work. As an immediate step, the grave sites must be secured in order to preserve the evidence;
&#8226; ensure that all past and current allegations of enforced disappearances are promptly, thoroughly, independently and impartially investigated and that, where there is sufficient evidence, anyone suspected of responsibility for such crimes is prosecuted in proceedings which meet international fair trial standards;
&#8226; ensure that all victims of unlawful killings, enforced disappearance and torture are granted full reparations, including restitution, compensation, rehabilitation, satisfaction and guarantees of non-repetition.

Thousands lost in Kashmir mass graves | Amnesty International


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## Kompromat

@ Samika:

Get out of my Thread.


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## Abhiras

children inspecting stick in kashmir....

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## Kompromat

*Mass graves found in North Kashmir containing 2,900 unmarked bodies
Shujaat Bukhari Share &#183; *

International People&#8217;s Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice, a human rights group, on Wednesday demanded an independent probe into the unmarked mass graves in Kashmir and immediate halt to committing such crimes.

The probe was demanded at a news conference in Srinagar called to release the report which claimed that 2,700 &#8216;unknown, unmarked, and mass graves,&#8217; containing at least 2,900 bodies, in 55 villages in three districts &#8212; Bandipora, Baramulla, and Kupwara &#8212; of North Kashmir have been probed. It claimed 87.9 percent of the cadavers in the graves were unnamed.

The group sought intervention of National Human Rights Commission as well as State Human Rights Commission and maintained that the copies of the report have been sent to Chief Minister Omar Abdullah as well and will be sent to functionaries in the government of India. &#8220;Government should not ignore the report and look into this on priority,&#8221; said Angana Chatterji, Convenor of IPTK. Dr. Chatterji, who is also professor of cultural and social anthropology at California Centre for Integral Studies, said &#8220;Of the 2700 graves, 2,373 (87.9 percent) were unnamed. 154 graves contained two bodies each and 23 contained more than two cadavers. Within these 23 graves, the number of bodies ranged from 3 to 17,&#8221;

She said that a mass grave may be identified as containing more than one, and usually unidentified, human cadaver. The group has given 32 recommendations for the government and International organisations to ponder over.

Scholars, she said, refer to mass graves as resulting from Crimes Against Humanity, War Crimes, or Genocide. &#8220;If the intent of a mass grave is to execute death with impunity, with intent to kill more than one, and to forge an unremitting representation of death, then, to that extent, the graves in Bandipora, Baramulla, and Kupwara are part of a collective burial by India&#8217;s military and paramilitary, creating a landscape of &#8216;mass burial.&#8217;

Dr. Chatterji said post-death, the bodies of the victims were routinely handled by military and paramilitary personnel, including the local police. She said that the bodies were then brought to &#8220;secret graveyards&#8221; primarily by personnel of the State Police.

&#8220;The graves were constructed by local gravediggers and caretakers, buried individually when possible, and specifically, not en mass, in keeping with Islamic religious sensibilities,&#8221; she added.

She said armed forces and the State Police routinely claim the dead buried in unknown and unmarked graves to be &#8220;foreign militants.&#8221; The report, she said, also examines 50 alleged &#8220;encounter&#8221; killings by Indian security forces in numerous districts in Kashmir.

&#8220;Of these persons, 39 were of Muslim descent; 4 were of Hindu descent; 7 were not determined. Of these cases, 49 were labeled militants/foreign insurgents by forces and one body was drowned,&#8217; she added.

The IPTK convener said that they have been able to study only partial areas within 3 out of the 10 districts in Kashmir, and our findings and very preliminary evidence point to the severity of existing conditions.

&#8220;If independent investigations were to be undertaken in all 10 districts, it is reasonable to assume that over 8,000 enforced disappearances since 1989 would correlate with the number of bodies in unknown, unmarked, and mass graves,&#8221; said Dr. Chatterji, flanked by other members of the group.

The group alleged that the international community and institutions have not examined the supposition of crimes against humanity in the State. &#8220;We note that the United Nations and its member states have remained ineffective in containing and halting the adverse consequences of the Indian state&#8217;s militarization in Kashmir,&#8221; she added, clarifying that the group wants world to know what was happening in Kashmir.

The group asked that evidence from &#8216;unknown, unmarked, and mass graves&#8217; be used to seek justice, through the sentencing of criminals and other judicial and social processes.

&#8220;As well, the existence of these graves, and how they came to be, may be understood as indicative of the effects and issue of militarization, and the issues pertaining to militarization itself must be addressed seriously and expeditiously,&#8221; she added.

The independent group alleged that the violence and militarization in Kashmir, between 1989-2009, have resulted in over 70,000 deaths, including through extrajudicial or &#8220;fake encounter&#8221; executions, custodial brutality, and other means.

&#8220;In the enduring conflict, 6, 67,000 military and paramilitary personnel continue to act with impunity to regulate movement, law, and order across Kashmir,&#8221; she added.

The Hindu : News / National : Mass graves found in North Kashmir containing 2,900 unmarked bodies


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## jha

Abhiras said:


> children inspecting stick in kashmir....



pretty cool..


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## Kompromat

Abhiras said:


> children inspecting stick in kashmir....


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## Kompromat

Independent view over Kashmir Massacre . 

[video=metacafe;1619384/sarah_ludford_on_mass_graves_in_kashmir/]http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1619384/sarah_ludford_on_mass_graves_in_kashmir/[/video]


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## Kompromat




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## Kompromat




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## Kompromat




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## desiman

Thats what being an Indian stands for

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## Abhiras

desiman said:


> Thats what being an Indian stands for



yeah and that picture is from ladhakh ,,Jammu & Kashmir

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## Abhiras

Zaki said:


> oh well i have read dozens of nuteral reports and almost all of them said peoples in Pakistani side of Kashmir are in far better condition
> 
> I don't know which and when and where did you hear that
> 
> Peoples in Pakistani side Kashmir do not even consider themselves Kashmiris. They are just like Pakistanis trust me........ you have neve been there you have no idea about the Pakistani side of Kashmir
> 
> Last post here for now


pakistani kashmiris are just like pakistani(simile) while indian kashmiris are indian(metaphor)

Can you name the few neutral from dozens of reports........

i name my few reports:United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees' report & 'Freedom of World' report by freedomhouse


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## EjazR

In a setback to the Hurriyat moderates, several hardliners figure among the list of separatists who have got an invite from Islamabad for a forthcoming visit to the country. This includes Dukhtaran-e-Millat leader Asiya Andrabi, who has never been given much prominence by Pakistan.
Moreover, the chief of the Hurriyat hawkish faction, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, has been addressed as Hurriyat chairman in the invite to him.

This is a clear snub to Mirwaiz Umer Farooq, the leader of the moderates, regarded as the sole chairman of the Hurriyat Conference. In earlier invites, Geelani used to be referred to as just buzurg rehnuma (veteran leader).

Apart from Mirwaiz, Geelani and Andrabi, invites have gone out to JKLF chief Yasin Malik, two executive members of the moderate Hurriyat Shabir Shah and Agha Syed Hassan, and president of the Kashmir High Court Bar Association Mian Abdul Qayoom.

*Geelani calls for an end to stone-pelting*

srinagar: Troubled by frequent incidents of stone pelting, J&K Police would have been relieved on Thursday when Chairman of Hurriyats hardline faction Syed Ali Geelani asked people to desist from stone-pelting. There should be peaceful protests after Friday prayers, Geelani said in his first address after returning from Delhi, where he spent the winter on the advice of doctors. I appeal to my supporters that nobody should resort to stone pelting. Geelanis statement comes at a time when stone-pelting,which has become an almost everyday affair now,is being widely debated across the Valley, particularly after the death of an 11-day-old baby allegedly during rioting by stone pelters in Baramulla last month.

Geelani also referred to the incident. About the death of the infant, doctors say he died of pneumonia, he said. But if he died of stone-pelting , it is a case of indiscipline. We cant tolerate it.

-----------------

Interesting development. GoP instead of continuing to work on the steps taken by Musharraf to resolve the Kashmir issue does not want to go there anymore. Moreover, its boosting marginal sections of Kashmir instead of engaging with mainstream or even the mainstream leaders within the Hurriyat movement. 

On the second report, doctors clearly mentioned "compressional injury to the head" as cause of death. So either he is ignorant or willfully distorting the issue. In any case, stone throwers have been shown that they are in a minority and with his statement we should hopefully see the end to it.


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## Materialistic

Big news....


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## Peshwa

^^^Looks more like the Sikh dude wants to be aligned with the United States more than Pakistan....whats with the blue flag with stars?...Star spangled is it?...


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## Peshwa

Blackblood...

Is there any way to prove that the pictures posted by you are from the Indian side of Kashmir and not protests in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir?
The topography and the demography look the same on both sides dont they?

Any way we can verify that you're not violating the rules of your own thread?

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## FreekiN

Abhiras said:


> children *inspecting stick* in kashmir....



Wow. This made my day.


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## Kompromat

Peshwa said:


> Blackblood...
> 
> Is there any way to prove that the pictures posted by you are from the Indian side of Kashmir and not protests in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir?
> The topography and the demography look the same on both sides dont they?
> 
> Any way we can verify that you're not violating the rules of your own thread?



You are mistaken peshwa , i have this collecting from Confirmed sources .

Amnesty International or other Human Rights Groups and some International Journals so they all are from Indian Held Kashmir.


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## Kompromat

*The Title has been Re Edited just to stop the Useless Crap from being Posted in This Thread.

Thanks*


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## Peshwa

Black Blood said:


> You are mistaken peshwa , i have this collecting from Confirmed sources .
> 
> Amnesty International or other Human Rights Groups and some International Journals so they all are from Indian Held Kashmir.



So all the pictures have been taken by Amnesty International journos or just been posted on the site?

Anyways...can you please send me the link please?

Thanks in advance....


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## Kompromat

Peshwa said:


> So all the pictures have been taken by Amnesty International journos or just been posted on the site?
> 
> Anyways...can you please send me the link please?
> 
> Thanks in advance....



Peshwa i do not expect anything stupid from you !

I have posted Hundreds of pictures and i cant send you all of those links .

Right Click on the Pictures > Properties > Link >copy>paste in your browser >Enter.

Not All of the pictures are from A.I or H.W ..!

Thanks


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## Hulk

Peshwa said:


> So all the pictures have been taken by Amnesty International journos or just been posted on the site?
> 
> Anyways...can you please send me the link please?
> 
> Thanks in advance....



Here are some that I copied.
http://moinansari.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/kashmiris-carrying-pakistan-and-green-flags3.jpg
http://moinansari.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/kashmiri-freedom.jpg
http://blogs.reuters.com/india/files/2009/06/kashmir1.jpg
http://snappedshot.com/uploads/Paro...51d853725e46.india_kashmir_protest_rmx105.jpg
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/08/22/world/22kashmir.xlarge1.jpg
http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00137/sunday_-_kashmir_137461d.jpg

http://www.takingitglobal.org/images/action/projects/logo/8845.jpg

http://im.rediff.com/news/2008/aug/12sld1.jpg

*To Moderators/Webbie*
As I understand the forum rules, if anyone is posting offtopic post, it should be reported to the moderators and they will decide the fate of the post. I have seen this message posted by mods n number of times. 

In this thread itself BB have at-least posted 20 warnings, is this accepted? I have also seen the language is not polite. 

If he started a thread about Kashmir burning, member's posting images to put their point of view are very much on topic. Please let me know if this is not the case.


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## Chappal Chor

The moral of the story is there are always 2 side of the coin. if you want to see india in the bad light you will be very easily be able to see it and it is good that people of pakistan continue to live in a fake dream that kashmiris will support them as they thought in 65 while doing operation gibraltor. kashmiris have proved themselves. A fooled and blindfolded enemy is always better... if pakistan realizes the ground reality why would they go for pebliciste at all in the end of the story...

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## PakSher

http://iref.homestead.com/files/wandhama.jpg
http://pakistanpal.files.wordpress.com/2010/02
/zrclip_004n3c18527f.png?w=450&h=280

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3261/2765339022_93ec66c7e8.jpg

To start with


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## Omar1984

xebex said:


> ^^ This is what Kashmiris should do, go to school and get educated and support your family. Turn your face away from terrorism. See the gun, thatz for those who want to make trouble in Kashmir. And India will protect its citizens from Terrorism - AT ANY COST.period.



Look at that girl's expression on her face. She seems disgusted to see that indian soldier.

Who would want their land to be surrounded by soldiers with rifles in their hands everywhere they go. From birth to death they see these indian soldiers everywhere everyday. Its like living in prison.

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## fawwaxs

WASHINGTON: The US State Department on Thursday reported widespread human rights violations in the Indian occupied Kashmir, including encounter killings, disappearances and rapes. The departments 2009 Human Rights report underlines dozens of violations in various parts of the occupied state.

On March 20, the Indian army stated that three soldiers were guilty of killing two civilians on Feb 22 in Bumai. Authorities initially claimed the victims died in crossfire between militants and security forces. The army ordered disciplinary action against the soldiers.

On May 29, in the Shopian, relatives and police discovered the bodies of two women in a stream. Local residents and examining doctors alleged that Indian security forces committed gang rape before killing Neelofar Jan and Asiya Jan, and government officials stated that police involvement in the killings could not be ruled out.

On Jan 7, the Indian army ordered a high-level inquiry into the death of Abdur Ahad Reshi, a deaf and mute man in Veer Saran Pahalgam.

On March 7, Jammu and Kashmir police registered a complaint against the Central Reserve Police Force for the killing of Sahbbir Ahmad Ahangar in Nowhatta.

On March 28, the CRPF admitted that two troopers of the 181st Battalion killed Ghulam Mohiuddin Malik on March 18.

On May 18, the army ordered an inquiry into the alleged custodial death of Manzoor Ahmed Beig by the Special Operations Group in Srinagar.

On Sept 13, the government ordered a magisterial inquiry into the alleged custodial death of Noor Hussain in Rajouri.

On August 23, the Jammu and Kashmir state government claimed that since 1990, 3,429 persons have been reported missing in the state. A private agency maintained that 10,000 persons remained missing.

The Public Safety Act, which applies only in Jammu and Kashmir, permits state authorities to detain persons without charge or judicial review for as long as two years. During this time family members do not have access to detainees, and detainees do not have access to legal counsel. According to media reports, since 2004 Indian authorities arrested approximately 2,700 Kashmiris under the PSA. On Aug 28, the state government announced that officials had detained 121 persons under the PSA during the year.

On Feb 5, the Jammu and Kashmir High Court overturned the detentions of 10 persons arrested under the PSA during Amarnath land transfer agitation in 2008.

On April 18, the Jammu and Kashmir Bar Court Association informed the State Assembly that lawyers had filed 2,223 PSA petitions since 2004.

On May 26, police placed Syed Ali Shah Geelani, chairman of a faction of the separatist Hurriyat Conference, under house arrest. Police invoked the PSA and accused him of leading protests regarding the rape and killing of two Shopian women and an alleged police cover-up of those events. In July the Jammu and Kashmir High Court overturned the PSA charges against Geelani and directed authorities to release him; they did so on Sept 9.

The report observes Courts in Jammu and Kashmir often are reluctant to hear cases involving insurgent and terrorist crimes and failed to act expeditiously, if at all, on habeas corpus cases.

According to a study by the South Asia Forum for Human Rights and the Centre for Law and Development, thousands of habeas corpus cases were pending in the courts throughout the Kashmir valley.

Political Prisoners and Detainees

NGOs reported that Jammu and Kashmir held political prisoners, and the government from time to time temporarily detained hundreds of persons characterised as terrorists, insurgents, and separatists. Human rights activists based in the state estimated there were 150 political prisoners. Prisoners arrested under one of the special antiterrorism laws often were not formally charged, nor did their family or other visitors have access to them.

In Jammu and Kashmir, Punjab, and Manipur, authorities have special powers to search and arrest without a warrant. Human rights groups reported that security forces in Jammu and Kashmir targeted suspected terrorists, insurgents, and their supporters.

Human rights groups maintained that in Jammu and Kashmir and in the northeastern states, military and paramilitary forces continued to hold numerous persons. Human rights activists feared that many of these unacknowledged prisoners were tortured and some may have been killed.

DAWN.COM | International | US reports widespread rights violations in occupied Kashmir


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## ek_indian

Well.....no doubt there are some cases of HR violations. However as one can see from the article, govt is not tolerating them. The guilty being punished in all cases. Therefore India is certainly not favouring the guilty ones. Indian Home Minister and other authorities has already said GoI will ensure zero tolerance of human right violations.


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## jinxeD_girl

Valiant_Soul said:


> Definition of village girl? Simply the girl who comes from village.
> 
> Kerala is the most educated state and has literacy rate of over 91&#37;, so I would not be surprised if she speaks English and wears modern dresses, even though coming from a village. Since she is literate and must have good qualifications to be there, she can easily slip into the dress code of her resident nation. While in India, she might prefer local dresses.



I think giving an "excuse" of "village girl" for bad hygienic and grooming habits doesn't work... You said yourself, *she is literate and you won't be surprised to see her speaking english and wearing western dresses...* then what is the excuse for having a mustache?

I have seen some desis (few Pakistanis included, but especially Indians), have bad hygienic habits... like they wont take bath everyday, their clothes smell like food, won't take care of themselves... and then they ruin the impression of all desis in western countries and that is where the stereotypes against desis come from.. There should be no excuse for lack of grooming skills...

Speaking of that it is time to get rid of Priya's mustache... tomorrow she will be in salon!!


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## jinxeD_girl

having said that some white people are worse!! But nevermind.. regardless of nationality and ethnicity... people should take care of themselves.. including Priya 3!!


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## jinxeD_girl

coming back the the topic.. 

Dal Lake - Kashmir

http://img692.imageshack.us/i/dallakesunset527147sw.jpg/


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## jinxeD_girl

desiman said:


> Thats what being an Indian stands for



Is this some kind of word circling game? Then I can use random words too and make India stand for them!!

R*I*CE
O*N*ION
*D*RAVIDIAN
PEPS*I*
MUST*A*CHE


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## DeathGod

jinxeD_girl said:


> Is this some kind of word circling game? Then I can use random words too and make India stand for them!!
> 
> R*I*CE
> O*N*ION
> *D*RAVIDIAN
> PEPS*I*
> MUST*A*CHE



I wonder if your IQ is less than 50. Did you miss the whole point of the picture that was posted ( in which case your IQ is definitely less than 50) or you are a budding serial racist who on every oppurtunity will try to defame a certain part of a country(South India) .

Those things are in India and except the Dravidian bit everything that you mentioned could be found in every country of the world. Whats your point in mentioning those? Btw give your superiority complex a rest. Whether a person has a moustache or not is entirely his or her personal business. Do you want me to go here and harp about how certain muslims have overgrown beard and how unhygenic might look to fellow people. 

Damn there is something called tolerance and you for sure were never taught the same.

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## Iggy

Jinxed gal that Priya offered you lunch is nothing to do with your compliment..You were training her and you talked friendly to her..atleast what she is thinking of you,..so its considered rude not to invite friend for lunch ... Its one of the bad customs of ugly looking Southies you know..Being from the same state as her I know ...And as for her compliments she probably knows you are pulling her legs and since you are training her she dont want to be in your bad books..any way continue with your skin comparisons..

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## Kompromat

indianrabbit said:


> Here are some that I copied.
> http://moinansari.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/kashmiris-carrying-pakistan-and-green-flags3.jpg
> http://moinansari.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/kashmiri-freedom.jpg
> http://blogs.reuters.com/india/files/2009/06/kashmir1.jpg
> http://snappedshot.com/uploads/Paro...51d853725e46.india_kashmir_protest_rmx105.jpg
> http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/08/22/world/22kashmir.xlarge1.jpg
> http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00137/sunday_-_kashmir_137461d.jpg
> 
> http://www.takingitglobal.org/images/action/projects/logo/8845.jpg
> 
> http://im.rediff.com/news/2008/aug/12sld1.jpg
> 
> *To Moderators/Webbie*
> As I understand the forum rules, if anyone is posting offtopic post, it should be reported to the moderators and they will decide the fate of the post. I have seen this message posted by mods n number of times.
> 
> In this thread itself BB have at-least posted 20 warnings, is this accepted? I have also seen the language is not polite.
> 
> If he started a thread about Kashmir burning, member's posting images to put their point of view are very much on topic. Please let me know if this is not the case.




*Thanks for Highly Informative Post.*


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## karan.1970

Omar1984 said:


> Look at that girl's expression on her face. She seems disgusted to see that indian soldier.
> 
> Who would want their land to be surrounded by soldiers with rifles in their hands everywhere they go. From birth to death they see these indian soldiers everywhere everyday. Its like living in prison.



The soldier, the rifle and the disgust is for the animals who kill innocent civilians in the name of freedom struggle which is nothing but a 3rd unsuccessful land grab attempt by Pakistan.

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## Kompromat

Guys this Thread is not you battlefield !


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## Iggy

Black Blood said:


>



Its not Indian Atrocities..its Pakistan based terrorists Atrocities to innocent Indians


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## jinxeD_girl

DeathGod said:


> I wonder if your IQ is less than 50. Did you miss the whole point of the picture that was posted ( in which case your IQ is definitely less than 50) or you are a budding serial racist who on every oppurtunity will try to defame a certain part of a country(South India) .
> 
> Those things are in India and except the Dravidian bit everything that you mentioned could be found in every country of the world. Whats your point in mentioning those? Btw give your superiority complex a rest. Whether a person has a moustache or not is entirely his or her personal business. Do you want me to go here and harp about how certain muslims have overgrown beard and how unhygenic might look to fellow people.
> 
> Damn there is something called tolerance and you for sure were never taught the same.


Lewis Terman (1916) developed the original notion of IQ and proposed this scale for classifying IQ scores:

Over 140 - Genius or near genius
120 - 140 - Very superior intelligence
110 - 119 - Superior intelligence
90 - 109 - Normal or average intelligence
80 - 89 - Dullness
70 - 79 - Borderline deficiency
* Under 70 - Definite feeble-mindedness *

5% of people have an IQ under 70 and this is generally considered as the benchmark for "mental retardation", a condition of limited mental ability in that it produces difficulty in adapting to the demands of life.

Severity of mental retardation can be broken into 4 levels:

50-70 - Mild mental retardation (85%)
* 35-50 - Moderate mental retardation (10%)*
20-35 - Severe mental retardation (4%)
IQ < 20 - Profound mental retardation (1%) 

When did you evaluate me? Going by your evaluation I fall under the category of "moderate mental retardation".. To say the least, A person who is attending college + working part time, training others, can log into her computer means that I atleast have normal intelligence falling between 90 - 109. Are you using some different IQ benchmark based in India ?

Everything I mentioned can be found in every part of the world INCLUDING Dravidian people... they have migrated to all parts of the world too...  If you call me Punjabi or Pakistani or a Mutt, it wont bother me.. because all that stuff applies to me... I don't know how Dravidian is considered as an insult even your National Anthem uses the word "Dravidia"...

And you can harp about certain muslims, I dont care, doesnt bother me.. btw some orthodox jews and sikhs have beards too

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## Kompromat

seiko said:


> Its not Indian Atrocities..its *Pakistan based *terrorists Atrocities to innocent Indians



The Picture is already been investigated , it is not from Mumbai Drama but from sri nagar.


*Take your propaganda out of this thread !*


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## jinxeD_girl

seiko said:


> Jinxed gal that Priya offered you lunch is nothing to do with your compliment..You were training her and you talked friendly to her..atleast what she is thinking of you,..so its considered rude not to invite friend for lunch ... Its one of the bad customs of ugly looking Southies you know..Being from the same state as her I know ...*And as for her compliments she probably knows you are pulling her legs and since you are training her she dont want to be in your bad books..*any way continue with your skin comparisons..



That statement doesnt apply to Priya 1!


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## jinxeD_girl

Now sticking back to topic!! 

Kashmir Valley!!


http://img684.imageshack.us/i/kashmirvalley.jpg/

Kashmiri Girl

http://img697.imageshack.us/i/kashmirigirl.jpg/


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## Iggy

Black Blood said:


> The Picture is already been investigated , it is not from Mumbai Drama but from sri nagar.
> 
> 
> *Take your propaganda out of this thread !*



Brother its Mumbai Taj hotel..I am not making any propoganda..


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## FPG

Black Blood said:


> The Picture is already been investigated , it is not from Mumbai Drama but from sri nagar.
> 
> 
> *Take your propaganda out of this thread !*



It is Taj hotel. :hitwall


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## ADT




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## jinxeD_girl

Now put the mustache topic to rest please!! And continue with the main topic! Lovely Dovely Kashmir, Kashmiris and Kashmiri Culture!! The* "K"* in Pakistan... 

Have any of you guyz had this pink Kashmiri Chai ? My Kashmiri friends make it soooo good!!

http://img189.imageshack.us/i/kashmirichai.jpg/


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## Kompromat

seiko said:


> Brother its Mumbai Taj hotel..I am not making any propoganda..



This is the LINK:

http://4.******.com/_q7Rxg4wqDyc/S0Wv1io-GBI/AAAAAAAAAfI/vvWVSy0hGSs/s400/in_*srinagar_kashmir.jpg*


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## Iggy

Black Blood said:


> This is the LINK:
> 
> http://4.******.com/_q7Rxg4wqDyc/S0Wv1io-GBI/AAAAAAAAAfI/vvWVSy0hGSs/s400/in_*srinagar_kashmir.jpg*



This link is not working..but i can say that for sure its Taj ..I am now doubting the credibility of the links you posting this pic


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## Chappal Chor

Black Blood said:


> This is the LINK:
> 
> http://4.******.com/_q7Rxg4wqDyc/S0Wv1io-GBI/AAAAAAAAAfI/vvWVSy0hGSs/s400/in_*srinagar_kashmir.jpg*



oops that was the wrong pic they took

Thats the taj hotel... but of course you are free to take indian actions against the nutcases there as the act of indian ...............


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## Kompromat

Seiko Try it yourself . Right Click and Go to properties and Link , i cant stress it anymore


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## Chappal Chor

Black Blood said:


> Seiko Try it yourself . Right Click and Go to properties and Link , i cant stress it anymore



are yaar woh link par un logo ne galat pic laga di hai... it is their mistake.


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## DeathGod

jinxeD_girl said:


> 1.When did you evaluate me? Going by your evaluation I fall under the category of "moderate mental retardation".. Are you using some different IQ benchmark based in India ?
> 
> 2.Everything I mentioned can be found in every part of the world INCLUDING Dravidian people... they have migrated to all parts of the world too...  If you call me Punjabi or Pakistani or a Mutt, it wont bother me.. because all that stuff applies to me... I don't know how Dravidian is considered as an insult even your National Anthem uses the word "Dravidia"...
> 
> 3.And you can harp about certain muslims, I dont care, doesnt bother me.. btw some orthodox jews and sikhs have beards too



1. I was just comparing you with me and I have an IQ well over 140's.

2. Dont try to be a smarta$$ . Ahem ahem.. so for Pa in Pakistan I can use Pathans while for kis I can use Kismat and for tan I can use some tanning solution marketed in UK. 

Well the above makes as much sense to me as your Dravidians can be found all over the world premise. Btw I never said Dravidians is an insult to us but the way you are singling them out is an insult to me and my nation. Scoot away in your pram lady.

3. I never forgot about the Jew & Sikhs but just wanted to see how you would react and well thank you for being true to my expectation. The kind of defence you have used is all too familiar a site for me here.

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## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> Is this some kind of word circling game? Then I can use random words too and make India stand for them!!
> 
> R*I*CE
> O*N*ION
> *D*RAVIDIAN
> PEPS*I*
> MUST*A*CHE





Well,, you talk about Dravidian a lot,, i think you are jealous of Dravidians ,,These dravidians are some of the most intelligent & civilized people of the world......
& when you mention indian you should not further mention dravidian ,,tamilians , punjabis ,kashmiris ,,etc. as all are the integral part of india

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## jinxeD_girl

DeathGod said:


> 1. I was just comparing you with me and I have an IQ well over 140's.



When did I post my REAL IQ score?.. There is no comparison till then.. 



> 2. Dont try to be a smarta$$ . Ahem ahem.. so for Pa in Pakistan I can use Pathans while for kis I can use Kismat and for tan I can use some tanning solution marketed in UK.



You are allowed to use whatever you want.. I didn't take any offense in that... you were the one who took offense is using MY choice of words in the first place... 




> 3. I never forgot about the Jew & Sikhs but just wanted to see how you would react and well thank you for being true to my expectation. The kind of defence you have used is all too familiar a site for me here.



I should say that I am glad that I am meeting some of your expectations... but really I am Not!


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## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> Well,, you talk about Dravidian a lot,, i think you are jealous of Dravidians ,,These dravidians are some of the most intelligent & civilized people of the world......
> & when you mention indian you should not further mention dravidian ,,tamilians , punjabis ,kashmiris ,,etc. as all are the integral part of india



Cough cough! I am so jealous of Dravidians!! I wish I was one too!! Yeah you are right, when I mention Indian... I shouldn't mention Dravidian as 98% Indians are Dravidians.. and they are all integral part of India.. except 1% Kashmiris from the Valley who are demanding their independence. Physically not much difference between someone from Bihar or U.P compared to someone Tamil Nadu and Kerala.


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## jinxeD_girl

Baltistan - The "K" in Pakistan

http://img714.imageshack.us/i/baltistan.jpg/


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## ADT



Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## ADT




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## ADT

Bottom Right.


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## riju78

i have to thank u for this!!!!!!


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## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> Cough cough! I am so jealous of Dravidians!! I wish I was one too!! Yeah you are right, when I mention Indian... I shouldn't mention Dravidian as 98% Indians are Dravidians.. and they are all integral part of India.. except 1% Kashmiris from the Valley who are demanding their independence. Physically not much difference between someone from Bihar or U.P compared to someone Tamil Nadu and Kerala.



india is not pakistan ,,we never care about the race or other thing....people of all ethnic group lives in india.......we never damn care if Dravidian constitute 98% of india or 2% of india....they are Indian first... 
well if you are pakistani then physically you are all similar to them ,,,*haplogroup R2 characterized by genetic marker M124 *make us south asian genetically closer to each other and different from rest of the world....


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## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> india is not pakistan ,,we never care about the race or other thing....



Did you read what you just said ? Are you talking about just yourself or INDIA?

Here is an article from National Geographic, read it! It is time that you start to learn more about your Country:-

Untouchable @ National Geographic Magazine


Discrimination against India's lowest Hindu castes is technically illegal. But try telling that to the 160 million Untouchables, who face violent reprisals if they forget their place.


----------



## ADT

Abhiras said:


> india is not pakistan ,,we never care about the race or other thing....people of all ethnic group lives in india.......we never damn care if Dravidian constitute 98% of india or 2% of india....they are Indian first...
> well if you are pakistani then physically you are all similar to them ,,,*haplogroup R2 characterized by genetic marker M124 *make us south asian genetically closer to each other and different from rest of the world....



Bite your tounge.


*The Indian propaganda machine has alot of pseudoscience supporting it's favor. This pseudoscience can be on many lines weather historic distortion, science (genetics in this case) or other political propaganda to erase the identity of other South Asian nations and discredit them while Indians credit themselves.*

Many Pan-South Asian Indian propagandists and their partners in Bangladesh, Pakistan like to propagate the people of South Asia as being "one race."

Sometimes this imaginary 'race' is laughably called the "brown race" sometimes it's called the "desi race" and perhaps a laundry list of names are underway for this imaginary 'race.'

*Their method of spreading their propaganda is very easy and it follows Adolph Hitlers strategy of speak a lie, keep repeating it and everyone will believe it.*

This is exactly how the Indian/Hindutva propaganda feeds itself aside from using misleading terminology or deliberately misquoting scholars to fit their own political agendas.

Coming back to the subject of genetics where Pan-South Asian Indian propagandists and Hindutvas have tried to convince the world that Nepalis, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and others don't exist as a race and are just part of the "Indian race" or the "South Asian" race and carry the same genes.

Using actual haplogroup reports of Y-Chromosomes & mtDNA in Southern Asia let us examine how true their claims are.
Some readers might not have a clue on genetics, so before we proceed, we should clarify a bit of basic genetic terminology as follows below:

-Y-chrosome(s)=Genes passed on from father to son. A male individual's maternal linage cannot be traced using Y-chromosomes as it's strictly based on a father-to-son linage.

-mt DNA= Genes passed on from mother to daughter. If a female human were to determine her fathers ancestry, she'd need Y-chromosome samples which she can only obtain from a brother, an uncle or another close male relative. Since females do not posses Y-chromosomes, it cannot be used to determine a father-to-daughter genetic linage.

Some major genetic markers in the world: (these can also be broken down into sub markers)

-R1A=Mostly Eastern European though also in very high percentages in western European countries as well as most of South-Central Asia. Some sources state it arose somewhere around the Black Sea and the Caucasus region (although many Indian propagandists & pseuodoscientists claim it to be of Indian origin based on their fantasy "out of India" theory). Dominant in Pakistan, eastern Afghanistan, high in Iran as well as North Western India

-J1= Gene of Semitic people whom are Natives of the Arabian peninsula as well as those who have semitic ancestry in them. A submarker of J. This is not necessarily associated with people who speak Semitic languages.

-J2=Said to have started somewhere in the fertile crescent. Common throughout the Mediterranean people as well as significant markers in India. Also commonly found in people of Ashkenasi Jewish descent, due to the Hebrew origins that many people of Jewish faith have. Also a submarker of J.

-E3B2=Indigenous to most north African people, again regardless of linguistic association.

-R1B=Western European, but also found in Anatolia (Turkey) , modern-day Iran, NorthWestern Pakistan and other parts of Europe due to migrations and expansion of Empires on both sides of Eurasia. (ie. Ottoman Empire in the Balkans caused mixing between Turks & Native Balkans.)

-L=Marker most strongest throughout India thought to be of the Native population. Some sources indicate that it is a result of a mutation that took place by it's careers somewhere in north-central India.
Can also be broken down into sub markers as named below and linking site.

-E3A=Subsaharran African.

-A=Also another Subsaharran African.

-Q=Turkic/Mongoloid/Turanoid. Not found in all Turkic speaking peoples as per the general consensus that language<< >>genetics.
Q is also found amongst certain Native North American tribes, coinciding with theories & linguistic findings that some Native American tribes crossed over from North Eastern Asia into North America via Alska sometime around the Ice Age.

First let's look at markers native & exclusive to India (including those of Indian descent living outside of India)

Below is a haplogroup map of the Indian genetic marker L and it's locations obtained from
Genebase :: Genebase Tutorials


The site gives additional details into marker L, it's distributions and it's divisions into L*, L1, L2, L1A, L2B, L3*, L3A.






As clearly shown marker L (represented in black) mostly widespread in India and not Pakistan. It is only in Southern Pakistan represented by Mohajirs, Brahuis and other language groups primarily or partially of Indian descent. In the early years of independence Pakistan experienced a massive wave of Muslim immigrants migrating from North India and other parts of the subcontinent.

L is also present in other parts of the world due to migration of tribes originating in present-day India.

Take for example the presence of the L marker in Europe. This is due to the migration of Romany people (also known as Gypsies) from India into Europe.

This is one proof that Indians and Pakistanis are not "the same" weather demographically or genetically. There are some shared markers, due to India and Pakistan having common invaders such as the Mughals/Mongols leaving behind their markers in both countries.

Another thing to note is that the above map points out the marker L also appears to be absent in Bangladesh and Nepal, given that Indians also love hijacking Bangladeshi identity, culture & literature to elevate 'their' achievements or claiming Nepalese history as one of theirs too.

Markers common to India & Pakistan and reasons for this commanlity.

Aside from R1A, most genetic markers common to certain parts of India and Pakistan is due to race mixing between a common invader.

R1A is a gene shared by Pakistan and North Western India due to migrations of early Indo-European speaking tribes that are said to have arrived into the subcontinent, through Pakistan and went across into North western India in ancient times. Their expansion stopped right there, which explains the limit of R1A in northwestern India. Indeed, most of Northwest Indians are a blend of these Indo-Aryan speakers alongside Native Dravidian speakers and others.

A brief quote form the CIA world fact book on India's background:
"Aryan tribes from the northwest infiltrated onto the Indian subcontinent about
1500 B.C.; their merger with the earlier Dravidian inhabitants created the
classical Indian culture."

The map below shows the most significant presence of R1A (represented in purple, while the black non-R1 markers) throught Pakistan while limited only to Northwestern India:






Another common marker shared by certain Indians & Pakistanis is marker Q, though not very significant. It is hardly visible in both countries. It is again not due to a propagated 'common origin' of "Indians" and Pakistanis but due to historical Turk/Mongoloid/Turanoid invasions of the subcontinent. Most notably are the Huns who were said to be of Turk/Mongoloid origins as well as the Ghaznavids and the Mughals (Mongols), though these two armies had leaders of Iranic speaking backgrounds. 

The Q markers distribution in South Asia is seen on the map below also obtained from Genebase :: Genebase Tutorials

The Q haplogroup is represented in black. As stated earlier, only a small percentage of people in India and Pakistan have it.






In India it's about 0.24 while in Pakistan it's about 0.74. Possible reasons for Pakistan having a higher frequency of it is due to Pakistan being the barriar between India & Central Asia and north western Pakistanis having contact with Turko-Mongol armies coming in from central Asia such as Genghis Khan's temporary rule in Balochistan as well as Turkic tribes coming towards North Western Pakistan from Afghanistan. Additionally the White Huns had a strong presence in Pakistan. 

More can be learned about Hun rule in pre-Islamic Pakistan here: http://www.geocities.com/pak_history/whitehuns.html

Additionally there is a large Hazara community in Pakistan. The general consensus is that they are descedents of ancient Turko-Mongol tribes that settled in Afghanistan and adopted an iranic language. Their Mongoloid features support these theories.

Haplogroup J1 & 2 are higher in India than in Pakistan. In India it is due to contact between the Portugese & the Arab traders particularly towards the South and surprisingly J seems to be absent almost everywhere in Pakistan save for a small fraction in Balochistan. This is probably due to close historic contact between Balochis and Omanis.


----------



## Windjammer

ADT said:


> Bottom Right.



Now what does this nonsense has to do with a thread about Kashmir..?


----------



## Abhiras

ADT said:


> Bite your tounge.
> 
> 
> *The Indian propaganda machine has alot of pseudoscience supporting it's favor. This pseudoscience can be on many lines weather historic distortion, science (genetics in this case) or other political propaganda to erase the identity of other South Asian nations and discredit them while Indians credit themselves.*
> 
> Many Pan-South Asian Indian propagandists and their partners in Bangladesh, Pakistan like to propagate the people of South Asia as being "one race."
> 
> Sometimes this imaginary 'race' is laughably called the "brown race" sometimes it's called the "desi race" and perhaps a laundry list of names are underway for this imaginary 'race.'
> 
> *Their method of spreading their propaganda is very easy and it follows Adolph Hitlers strategy of speak a lie, keep repeating it and everyone will believe it.*
> 
> This is exactly how the Indian/Hindutva propaganda feeds itself aside from using misleading terminology or deliberately misquoting scholars to fit their own political agendas.
> 
> Coming back to the subject of genetics where Pan-South Asian Indian propagandists and Hindutvas have tried to convince the world that Nepalis, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and others don't exist as a race and are just part of the "Indian race" or the "South Asian" race and carry the same genes.
> 
> Using actual haplogroup reports of Y-Chromosomes & mtDNA in Southern Asia let us examine how true their claims are.
> Some readers might not have a clue on genetics, so before we proceed, we should clarify a bit of basic genetic terminology as follows below:
> 
> -Y-chrosome(s)=Genes passed on from father to son. A male individual's maternal linage cannot be traced using Y-chromosomes as it's strictly based on a father-to-son linage.
> 
> -mt DNA= Genes passed on from mother to daughter. If a female human were to determine her fathers ancestry, she'd need Y-chromosome samples which she can only obtain from a brother, an uncle or another close male relative. Since females do not posses Y-chromosomes, it cannot be used to determine a father-to-daughter genetic linage.
> 
> Some major genetic markers in the world: (these can also be broken down into sub markers)
> 
> -R1A=Mostly Eastern European though also in very high percentages in western European countries as well as most of South-Central Asia. Some sources state it arose somewhere around the Black Sea and the Caucasus region (although many Indian propagandists & pseuodoscientists claim it to be of Indian origin based on their fantasy "out of India" theory). Dominant in Pakistan, eastern Afghanistan, high in Iran as well as North Western India
> 
> -J1= Gene of Semitic people whom are Natives of the Arabian peninsula as well as those who have semitic ancestry in them. A submarker of J. This is not necessarily associated with people who speak Semitic languages.
> 
> -J2=Said to have started somewhere in the fertile crescent. Common throughout the Mediterranean people as well as significant markers in India. Also commonly found in people of Ashkenasi Jewish descent, due to the Hebrew origins that many people of Jewish faith have. Also a submarker of J.
> 
> -E3B2=Indigenous to most north African people, again regardless of linguistic association.
> 
> -R1B=Western European, but also found in Anatolia (Turkey) , modern-day Iran, NorthWestern Pakistan and other parts of Europe due to migrations and expansion of Empires on both sides of Eurasia. (ie. Ottoman Empire in the Balkans caused mixing between Turks & Native Balkans.)
> 
> -L=Marker most strongest throughout India thought to be of the Native population. Some sources indicate that it is a result of a mutation that took place by it's careers somewhere in north-central India.
> Can also be broken down into sub markers as named below and linking site.
> 
> -E3A=Subsaharran African.
> 
> -A=Also another Subsaharran African.
> 
> -Q=Turkic/Mongoloid/Turanoid. Not found in all Turkic speaking peoples as per the general consensus that language<< >>genetics.
> Q is also found amongst certain Native North American tribes, coinciding with theories & linguistic findings that some Native American tribes crossed over from North Eastern Asia into North America via Alska sometime around the Ice Age.
> 
> First let's look at markers native & exclusive to India (including those of Indian descent living outside of India)
> 
> Below is a haplogroup map of the Indian genetic marker L and it's locations obtained from
> Genebase :: Genebase Tutorials
> 
> 
> The site gives additional details into marker L, it's distributions and it's divisions into L*, L1, L2, L1A, L2B, L3*, L3A.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As clearly shown marker L (represented in black) mostly widespread in India and not Pakistan. It is only in Southern Pakistan represented by Mohajirs, Brahuis and other language groups primarily or partially of Indian descent. In the early years of independence Pakistan experienced a massive wave of Muslim immigrants migrating from North India and other parts of the subcontinent.
> 
> L is also present in other parts of the world due to migration of tribes originating in present-day India.
> 
> Take for example the presence of the L marker in Europe. This is due to the migration of Romany people (also known as Gypsies) from India into Europe.
> 
> This is one proof that Indians and Pakistanis are not "the same" weather demographically or genetically. There are some shared markers, due to India and Pakistan having common invaders such as the Mughals/Mongols leaving behind their markers in both countries.
> 
> Another thing to note is that the above map points out the marker L also appears to be absent in Bangladesh and Nepal, given that Indians also love hijacking Bangladeshi identity, culture & literature to elevate 'their' achievements or claiming Nepalese history as one of theirs too.
> 
> Markers common to India & Pakistan and reasons for this commanlity.
> 
> Aside from R1A, most genetic markers common to certain parts of India and Pakistan is due to race mixing between a common invader.
> 
> R1A is a gene shared by Pakistan and North Western India due to migrations of early Indo-European speaking tribes that are said to have arrived into the subcontinent, through Pakistan and went across into North western India in ancient times. Their expansion stopped right there, which explains the limit of R1A in northwestern India. Indeed, most of Northwest Indians are a blend of these Indo-Aryan speakers alongside Native Dravidian speakers and others.
> 
> A brief quote form the CIA world fact book on India's background:
> "Aryan tribes from the northwest infiltrated onto the Indian subcontinent about
> 1500 B.C.; their merger with the earlier Dravidian inhabitants created the
> classical Indian culture."
> 
> The map below shows the most significant presence of R1A (represented in purple, while the black non-R1 markers) throught Pakistan while limited only to Northwestern India:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another common marker shared by certain Indians & Pakistanis is marker Q, though not very significant. It is hardly visible in both countries. It is again not due to a propagated 'common origin' of "Indians" and Pakistanis but due to historical Turk/Mongoloid/Turanoid invasions of the subcontinent. Most notably are the Huns who were said to be of Turk/Mongoloid origins as well as the Ghaznavids and the Mughals (Mongols), though these two armies had leaders of Iranic speaking backgrounds.
> 
> The Q markers distribution in South Asia is seen on the map below also obtained from Genebase :: Genebase Tutorials
> 
> The Q haplogroup is represented in black. As stated earlier, only a small percentage of people in India and Pakistan have it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In India it's about 0.24 while in Pakistan it's about 0.74. Possible reasons for Pakistan having a higher frequency of it is due to Pakistan being the barriar between India & Central Asia and north western Pakistanis having contact with Turko-Mongol armies coming in from central Asia such as Genghis Khan's temporary rule in Balochistan as well as Turkic tribes coming towards North Western Pakistan from Afghanistan. Additionally the White Huns had a strong presence in Pakistan.
> 
> More can be learned about Hun rule in pre-Islamic Pakistan here: http://www.geocities.com/pak_history/whitehuns.html
> 
> Additionally there is a large Hazara community in Pakistan. The general consensus is that they are descedents of ancient Turko-Mongol tribes that settled in Afghanistan and adopted an iranic language. Their Mongoloid features support these theories.
> 
> Haplogroup J1 & 2 are higher in India than in Pakistan. In India it is due to contact between the Portugese & the Arab traders particularly towards the South and surprisingly J seems to be absent almost everywhere in Pakistan save for a small fraction in Balochistan. This is probably due to close historic contact between Balochis and Omanis.


haha
many part of articles is telling the similarities with india....i think you are familier with mendelian genetics
believe it or not ,,you are *genetically similar to indian* then to anyone else....


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## ADT

Abhiras said:


> haha
> many part of articles is telling the similarities with india....i think you are familier with mendelian genetics
> believe it or not ,,you are *genetically similar to indian* then to anyone else....



You people never give up.


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## jinxeD_girl

Stick to topic Abhiras!! The "K" in PA*K*ISTAN

Traditional Kashmiri Dresses

http://img638.imageshack.us/i/kashmiridress.jpg/


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## rangbaaz

I don't know why Indians have to spoil every thread about Pakistan. The original posts were about the K in Pakistan (i.e. Kashmir), and the beautiful pictures were uploaded, but as usual some Indians couldn't stand it and ruined such beautiful thread.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## rangbaaz

here are some more beautiful picture of Kashmir (Neelum Valley)












View attachment 964eeadf05c9a5aefc58b2c4e7c78a90.jpg

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## jinxeD_girl

ADT said:


> You people never give up.



Yup. Sorry to burst your bubble Abhiras, but here is another study from American Journal of Human Genetics...


According to this study 40&#37; Pakistanis show West Eurasian Genetical markers, as compared to Indians who show 15%. Pakistanis and Indians are similar in some aspects, but they are also different in others...


http://img638.imageshack.us/i/geneticmap.jpg/


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## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> Did you read what you just said ? Are you talking about just yourself or INDIA?
> 
> Here is an article from National Geographic, read it! It is time that you start to learn more about your Country:-
> 
> Untouchable @ National Geographic Magazine
> 
> 
> Discrimination against India's lowest Hindu castes is technically illegal. But try telling that to the 160 million Untouchables, who face violent reprisals if they forget their place.


first thing casteism is not racism....

That problem is also very less.....The modern generation damn care about the untouchablity...
I,punjabi brahmin myself,, have many friend belonging to backward caste,,i work with them,,i eat with them...brahminism has died now....i live in india & i can feel the change.....

Modern generation in india does not care about it....
Modi , Mayawati & many personalities belong to backword caste..people follow them...


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## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> first thing casteism is not racism....



Oh my God!!  Can you shed some historical light on how the different castes of India came into being in the first place? Whom you are trying to kid?



> That problem is also very less.....The modern generation damn care about the untouchablity...
> I,punjabi brahmin myself,, have many friend belonging to backward caste,,i work with them,,i eat with them...brahminism has died now....i live in india & i can feel the change.....



I work with them, I eat with them, I spend money on them and take them to Salons too...  just that personally I don't find them attractive.. that is not racism..  I never intend to harm them in anyway.. believe me..


----------



## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> Yup. Sorry to burst your bubble Abhiras, but here is another study from American Journal of Human Genetics...
> 
> 
> According to this study 40% Pakistanis show West Eurasian Genetical markers, as compared to Indians who show 15%. Pakistanis and Indians are similar in some aspects, but they are also different in others...
> 
> 
> http://img638.imageshack.us/i/geneticmap.jpg/



even no two person are genetically similar.....but similarities of indian and pakistani are so much that they are be catheterized into south asian race.... 
one could easily identify a person is european , african , middle easten, chinese or south asian......

it is further almost impossible to categorize into indian or pakistani....if you live in USA you may know it is hard to distinguish


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## rangbaaz

why wasting your energy in proving others wrong? 

Geo aur jeenay do

baqi Rab Rakha


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## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> one could easily identify a person is european , african , middle easten, chinese or south asian......



Can I post the pictures of Kashmiris, Pashtuns, Balochis, Northern Punjabis (not the Indian Punjab ofcourse) and show you how majority look different from mainland Indians?

Other than physical features, there are other clues which help people identify someone as south asian or not.. For example, if I wear Shalwar Kameez, people will ask me if I am Pakistan? If I wear Sari, people will ask me if I am from India? If I wear pant shirt, no one will ever confuse me for an Indian


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## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> Oh my God!!  Can you shed some historical light on how the different castes of India came into being in the first place? Whom you are trying to kid?



I am saying casteism is not racism

Caste refers to which Indian society you belong and what type of work you are expected to do, but in general everybody is Indian. 
Racism is about one race
You can distinguish between two races....but you cannot distinguish between two castes


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## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> If I wear pant shirt, no one will ever confuse me for an Indian



so if you wear pant shirt .. will they confuse you for african or european ???


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## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> so if you wear pant shirt .. will they confuse you for african or european ???



Pakistani, Middle Eastern, Mediterranean, sometimes Latino.


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## jinxeD_girl

Kashmiri People - The "K" in PA*K*ISTAN 

http://img101.imageshack.us/i/41164004.jpg/

http://img682.imageshack.us/i/27211220.jpg/

http://img18.imageshack.us/i/59772159.jpg/

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## rangbaaz

jinxeD_girl said:


> Kashmiri People - The "K" in PA*K*ISTAN
> 
> http://img101.imageshack.us/i/41164004.jpg/
> 
> http://img682.imageshack.us/i/27211220.jpg/
> 
> http://img18.imageshack.us/i/59772159.jpg/




that's more like it. Mash'Allah

beautiful people of beautiful land


----------



## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> Pakistani, Middle Eastern, Mediterranean, sometimes Latino.


haha... then you may be special case....

you may be understanding my point..... i am talking about general thing...see cricket team, hockey team...indian & pakistani look close to each other....
we share same history ,,same geography,,same culture....i wonder why some pakistani are not accepting it...


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## rangbaaz

Ok dude, your point's been proven. Time to move on.


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## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> haha... then you may be special case....
> 
> you may be understanding my point..... i am talking about general thing...see cricket team, hockey team...indian & pakistani look close to each other....
> we share same history ,,same geography,,same culture....i wonder why some pakistani are not accepting it...



How many times I told you guyz that some celebrities like Bollywood actors/actresses, cricket stars etc are not the complete representation of all ethnic groups of that country??


----------



## rangbaaz

jinxeD_girl said:


> How many times I told you guyz that some celebrities like Bollywood actors/actresses, cricket stars etc are not the complete representation of all ethnic groups of that country??



jinxeD_girl: you've also proven your point; let's drop it now. no pt. in wasting time in such arguments. 

Pakistan Zindabad


----------



## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> How many times I told you guyz that some celebrities like Bollywood actors/actresses, cricket stars etc are not the complete representation of all ethnic groups of that country??



so you think cricket players are chosen from a certain etentic group only ???


----------



## jinxeD_girl

rangbaaz said:


> Ok dude, your point's been proven. Time to move on.



Nope, his point has NOT been proven yet... I won't let them steal our history so quick!

He says we share *same history*? Not the majority of history!! Let us take three random periods of Pakistani history... *most* of the present day India is not part of our history..

Achaemenid Empire

http://img94.imageshack.us/i/achaemenidempiremap.gif/

Indus Valley Civilization 

http://img97.imageshack.us/i/worldindusvalleymap.png/

Indo-Greek Kingdom

http://img175.imageshack.us/i/indogreekkingdom.jpg/


----------



## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> Nope, his point has NOT been proven yet... I won't let them steal our history so quick!
> 
> He says we share *same history*? Not the majority of history!! Let us take three random periods of Pakistani history... *most* of the present day India is not part of our history..
> 
> Achaemenid Empire
> 
> http://img94.imageshack.us/i/achaemenidempiremap.gif/
> 
> Indus Valley Civilization
> 
> http://img97.imageshack.us/i/worldindusvalleymap.png/
> 
> Indo-Greek Kingdom
> 
> http://img175.imageshack.us/i/indogreekkingdom.jpg/


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## jinxeD_girl

*Same Geography?*

I dont think so!

Geographically, 60% Pakistan lies on Iranian plateau or Eurasian Plate.. Thats the root cause of earthquakes in Pakistan...

http://img683.imageshack.us/i/earthquakeinformationfo.gif/


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## Abhiras




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## jinxeD_girl

Starting from 2500 B.C., post the time spans of all kingdoms and empires of present day Pakistan and present day India... for the most part Pakistan was not part of mainland India...


----------



## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> *Same Geography?*
> 
> I dont think so!
> 
> Geographically, 60&#37; Pakistan lies on Iranian plateau or Eurasian Plate.. Thats the root cause of earthquakes in Pakistan...
> 
> http://img683.imageshack.us/i/earthquakeinformationfo.gif/


india share plate with australia ..it mean same geograpy ???
are you kidding me ?????
india and pakistan are the part of indian sub continent
chech out physical mape...IT IS SAME GEOGRAPHY


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> india share plate with australia ..it mean same geograpy ???
> are you kidding me ?????
> india and pakistan are the part of indian sub continent
> chech out physical mape...IT IS SAME GEOGRAPHY



You are not getting my point.. Pakistan lies on both Indian and Eurasian Plates.. Iranian plateau which includes Balochistan and Frontier is not geographically similar to India and isn't part of Indian plate..

Iranian Plateau

The Iranian plateau, also known as the Persian plateau[1][2] is a geological formation in Southwest Asia. It is the part of the Eurasian Plate wedged between the Arabian and Indian plates, situated between the Zagros mountains to the west, the Caspian Sea and the Kopet Dag to the north, the Hormuz Strait and Arabian Sea to the south and Indus River to the east.

Indian Plate

http://img502.imageshack.us/i/himalayaformation.gif/


----------



## rangbaaz

What's the outcome of this argument?


----------



## jinxeD_girl

My point is many Pakistanis are similar to Indians, but there are many who aren't.. Please never post this argument that we are COMPLETELY the same people.. bcoz we aren't..

It is funny how Indians try to separate themselves from us when it comes to intelligence, money etc.. but when it comes to ethnic groups, race, history etc they say we are all *same same*!!


----------



## prithwidw

The racism in this thread is commendable.

Only someone like jinxed_girl could have done it. Kudos.

Living in a free country have not done much better either, for er... the Outlook.


----------



## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> You are not getting my point.. Pakistan lies on both Indian and Eurasian Plates.. Iranian plateau which includes Balochistan and Frontier is not geographically similar to India and isn't part of Indian plate..
> 
> Iranian Plateau
> 
> The Iranian plateau, also known as the Persian plateau[1][2] is a geological formation in Southwest Asia. It is the part of the Eurasian Plate wedged between the Arabian and Indian plates, situated between the Zagros mountains to the west, the Caspian Sea and the Kopet Dag to the north, the Hormuz Strait and Arabian Sea to the south and Indus River to the east.
> 
> Indian Plate
> 
> http://img502.imageshack.us/i/himalayaformation.gif/



some part of pakistan not part of indan plate does not mean is not part of indian geography.....
pakistan is the part of indian sub continent...noone even a student of geography can deny it.....you can read any encyclopedia...
plate tactonic does not prove anything.....


----------



## jinxeD_girl

prithwidw said:


> The racism in this thread is commendable.
> 
> Only someone like jinxed_girl could have done it. Kudos.
> 
> *Living in a free country have not done much better either.*



Living in a *so called *secular country havent changed Indians either... with their hidden insults, flames, back stabbing etc etc


----------



## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> My point is many Pakistanis are similar to Indians, but there are many who aren't.. Please never post this argument that we are COMPLETELY the same people.. bcoz we aren't..
> 
> It is funny how Indians try to separate themselves from us when it comes to intelligence, money etc.. but when it comes to ethnic groups, race, history etc they say we are all *same same*!!


we are saying you are part of our history, you are the part of our geography ,,
prove that you are not ????


----------



## rangbaaz

prithwidw said:


> Living in a free country have not done much better either, for er... the Outlook.



This statement ain't going help anyway either.


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> some part of pakistan not part of indan plate does not mean is not part of indian geography.....
> pakistan is the part of indian sub continent...noone even a student of geography can deny it.....you can read any encyclopedia...
> plate tactonic does not prove anything.....



Read post 494.. it is not some, it is 60&#37; Balochistan is the largest province of Pakistan covering 40% landmass, include to that NWFP and Northern Areas which are situated on Iranian plaateau..


----------



## prithwidw

And such offtopic posts too. You claim to train someone in IT with such an attitude. Well nice try, but I don't buy it, and I believe nobody does.
Enjoy your time though, with some more sarcasm and racism.


----------



## rangbaaz

Abhiras said:


> we are saying you are part of our history, you are the part of our geography ,,
> prove that you are not ????



1st let's define what "we" in your phrase? 

Are you speaking in terms of religion, race, language, colour?


----------



## prithwidw

jinxeD_girl said:


> Living in a *so called *secular country havent changed Indians either... with their hidden insults, flames, back stabbing etc etc



Where are the hidden insults, flames, back stabbing etc etc ?
I was pointing out your attitude girl. Swearing at people or suffering from superiority complex won't earn you any money, atleast not in this forum. so, relax, take some time out.


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> we are saying you are part of our history, you are the part of our geography ,,
> prove that you are not ????



Abhiras,

It is no use of arguing with you because you were the one who posted the argument without doing some thorough research that Bollywood itself produces 1200 movies a year and then I proved you wrong posting the stats from Encyclopedia of Indian Cinema... 

My point is geographically, linguistically, ethnically, historically, culturally there are many Pakistanis who don't share much in common with mainland India. Never ever try to make this argument that we are SAME... only partially we are...

If you don't stop with this argument of yours, then ironically I have to start posting pics of ethnic groups of Pakistan and ask foreign members (non indians and Pakistanis) to tell me if physically they can tell them apart... But I really don't want to do that...


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Now Abhiras and all Indians on this forum,

Please stick to the main topic.. 

KASHMIR


----------



## prithwidw

rangbaaz said:


> This statement ain't going help anyway either.



I know. Broadening our outlook shines our personality and then we see people as one and not by the color of their skin. Hope it helps.


----------



## rangbaaz

jinxeD_girl said:


> Abhiras,
> 
> It is no use of arguing with you because you were the one who posted the argument without doing some thorough research that Bollywood itself produces 1200 movies a year and then I proved you wrong posting the stats from Encyclopedia of Indian Cinema...
> 
> My point is geographically, linguistically, ethnically, historically, culturally there are many Pakistanis who don't share much in common with mainland India. Never ever try to make this argument that we are SAME... only partially we are...
> 
> If you don't stop with this argument of yours, then ironically I have to start posting pics of ethnic groups of Pakistan and ask foreign members (non indians and Pakistanis) to tell me if physically they can tell them apart... But I really don't want to do that...



We don't need to prove that to them. Similarly their people in southern area are different than us.


----------



## jinxeD_girl

prithwidw said:


> I know. Broadening our outlook shines our personality and then we see people as one and not by the color of their skin. Hope it helps.



Apply that rule to India first... Please stick to the topic now... Kashmir and Kashmiri culture is great!!


----------



## rangbaaz

prithwidw said:


> I know. Broadening our outlook shines our personality and then we see people as one and not by the color of their skin. Hope it helps.




I guess it applied to everyone here

cheers


----------



## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> Abhiras,
> 
> It is no use of arguing with you because you were the one who posted the argument without doing some thorough research that Bollywood itself produces 1200 movies a year and then I proved you wrong posting the stats from Encyclopedia of Indian Cinema...
> 
> My point is geographically, linguistically, ethnically, historically, culturally there are many Pakistanis who don't share much in common with mainland India. Never ever try to make this argument that we are SAME... only partially we are...
> 
> If you don't stop with this argument of yours, then ironically I have to start posting pics of ethnic groups of Pakistan and ask foreign members (non indians and Pakistanis) to tell me if physically they can tell them apart... But I really don't want to do that...



ok if you want we can stop arguing now 
but you may not conclude geographically, linguistically, ethnically, historically, culturally you are not part of India...
ask someone having good knowledge in history , geography , genetics before concluding 
posting something good pictures from Pakistan and bad pictures from india does not prove anything...


----------



## prithwidw

jinxeD_girl said:


> Apply that rule to India first... Please stick to the topic now... Kashmir and Kashmiri culture is great!!



I was not talking about India or Pakistan, but you. You have destroyed this thread with racist comments and irrational posts and now shout about coming back to the thread topic. 

I was enjoying silently the first couple of posts and pictures until you showed up.


----------



## Abhiras

back to kashmir from tommorow.....
its 4:30 am ...i forgot to sleep tonight ..............i seriously need to go to bed


----------



## rangbaaz

I love Kashmiri Chai 

especially with some pistachio


----------



## prithwidw

Windjammer, can we have some more pics please.


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> ok if you want we can stop arguing now
> but you may not conclude geographically, linguistically, ethnically, historically, culturally you are not part of India...
> ask someone having good knowledge in history , geography , genetics before concluding
> posting something good pictures from Pakistan and bad pictures from india does not prove anything...



Are you really that retarded? I never said that we were NEVER part of India.. 

All I am trying to say that we share many similarities with India, but there is a significant portion of Pakistani culture which don't share much in common with India... Do you get that in your head?


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras,

Tomorrow think about this topic..

Tell me how Balochis and Pashtuns of Pakistan share MORE in common with India as compared to Iran and Afghanistan...?

I am very much interested in reading your "interesting" comments in this issue...


----------



## rangbaaz

time to enjoy some Kashmiri Tea 

Ok, we're different. Let's enjoy that garma garam chai :p


----------



## rangbaaz

jinxeD_girl said:


> Abhiras,
> 
> Tomorrow think about this topic..
> 
> Tell me how Balochis and Pashtuns of Pakistan share MORE in common with India as compared to Iran and Afghanistan...?
> 
> I am very much interested in reading your "interesting" comments in this issue...



Let the poor guy sleep now


----------



## rangbaaz

prithwidw said:


> Windjammer, can we have some more pics please.




Why don't you post some


----------



## prithwidw

rangbaaz said:


> Why don't you post some



I don't have any, live way down in India to post pictures of kashmir.


----------



## rangbaaz

prithwidw said:


> I don't have any, live way down in India to post pictures of kashmir.


Ok dude, I'll post some of pics taken by my camera


----------



## Windjammer

prithwidw said:


> Windjammer, can we have some more pics please.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Windjammer



Reactions: Like Like:
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## Windjammer

And The Sad Reality...............


----------



## jinxeD_girl

prithwidw said:


> And such offtopic posts too. You claim to train someone in IT with such an attitude. Well nice try, but I don't buy it, and I believe nobody does.
> Enjoy your time though, with some more sarcasm and racism.



No dude I never claim to train someone in IT dept. I claimed to train Priya 3 in our department which is Marketing. I am attending college right now, and there is no way I can be in IT right now. I find IT to be dry and boring. I want to be something else, maybe a film maker or interior designer or something along those lines. Now stick back to the topic...


----------



## jinxeD_girl

K-2

http://img190.imageshack.us/i/k2northridge.jpg/

http://img706.imageshack.us/i/k2montain.jpg/


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Windjammer said:


> And The Sad Reality...............



So sad!!


----------



## ADT1

^^^ 
India is behind that. When people say they are different from them - they attack as exemplified above.


----------



## jinxeD_girl

ADT1 said:


> ^^^
> Indians are behind that. When people say they are different from them - they attack as exemplified above.



^^^^^^^^^^^


----------



## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> Abhiras,
> 
> Tomorrow think about this topic..
> 
> Tell me how Balochis and Pashtuns of Pakistan share MORE in common with India as compared to Iran and Afghanistan...?
> 
> I am very much interested in reading your "interesting" comments in this issue...


see the map....





pakistan is extension of India.....
The indian subcontinent is not the same thing as the Indian plate; it is the geographical union of all the countries that (substantially) lie on the India Plate, and it therefore includes all of Pakistan. Western Baluchistan does not lie on the Indian plate, but it does lie on the subcontinent, similarly, the Mustang region of Nepal lies on the Tibetan plateau, and therefore not on the India plate, but it does lie on the indian subcontinent. The definition of "subcontinent," according to the *Oxford English Dictionary (1989 edition)*, "A land mass of great extent, but smaller than those generally called continents; a large section of a continent having a certain geographical or political independence; spec. applied formerly to South Africa, *and more recently to India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka*."you cannot deny the fact that Pakistan is the part of Indian subcontinent....


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras,

I asked a simple question...

How Pashtuns and Balochis of Pakistan are related to Indians.. culturally, linguistically, historically, grographically, and in other ways...

Don't think I am trying to start another war.. I am just interested to see how will you link them with Indians..

I am going to bed now, so I will read your reply in the morning


----------



## EjazR

*'Resolving Kashmir issue will not satisfy LeT'*

A top expert told US lawmakers that terrorist outfits like Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) will no longer be satisfied by a resolution on Kashmir between India and Pakistan, bringing into light the possibility of a the terror outfits looking for a bigger goal and a greater share of power in Pakistan.

"There is no doubt in my mind that we have to find ways to resolve the issues relating to Kashmir. But I think resolving Kashmir is not going to solve the problems relating to LeT," Ashley J Tellis, senior associate at the prestigious Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, told US lawmakers at a Congressional hearing on Thursday.

*"Resolving the Kashmir problem by itself is not going to remove this threat because the aim of these groups is to leverage themselves into a position of power inside Pakistan and to take control," said eminent Pakistani scholar, Shuza Nawaz, Director, South Asia Centre, the Atlantic Council of the United States.* 

Both Nawaz and Tellis were responding to concerns of the US Congressmen at the hearing if LeT would abandon terrorism if Kashmir dispute was resolved; given that Lashkar was initially popped up by the ISI of Pakistan for the specific purpose of targeting Kashmir and India in particular.

*"I always find it interesting that the people conducting the murder and mayhem (in the Valley) today are not Kashmiri. The people who actually are deprived of all their political rights, they are not conducting the murder and mayhem," Tellis said.*

*"The murder and mayhem is being conducted by groups that have absolutely no connections to Kashmir. To my mind that is story, the fact that this is a group that has operations in 21 countries, that has an ideology that is completely anti-western, that is opposed to modernity and secularism and all the kinds of values that we take for granted. This group is not going to be satisfied by dealing with the issue of Kashmir," Tellis said.*

Testifying before the same committee, Lisa Curtis of the Heritage Foundation, referred to the Musharraf formula on resolving the Kashmir dispute; which the then Pakistani President made in a statement in December 2006.

"He (Musharraf) made a very important statement in December of 2006, where he said Pakistan would be willing to give up its claim on Kashmir if four things happen. He said, if the Line of Control that divides Kashmir was made irrelevant, which means people could freely pass back and forth could pass back and forth," said Curtis, who is known as an American authority on South Asia.

"Two, (Musharraf said) if Kashmir was given greater autonomy. Three, if both sides could figure out a joint mechanism to interact, to have the two sides of Kashmir, Pakistani Kashmir and Indian Kashmir interact. So he made a very forward looking proposal. And as we know by Steve Coll, who wrote about this in the New Yorker Magazine not too long ago, they were very close to coming to some kind of agreement or understanding on Kashmir," Curtis said.

Except for Congressmen Dan Burton tended to agree with the observations made by these eminent experts. Burton, who is well-known for his anti-India approach at the Congress, believed otherwise.

"I wish all of the experts and the people in the governments involved, as well as the US would make as their number one goal resolving the issues that have been prevailing for a long, long time. And that is resolving the issue of Kashmir," he argued.

"I think the only way to do that is to get the Pakistani government and the India government and the people in Kashmir together and resolve some way for them to solve that problem in Kashmir that's been existing since 1948. Until you get that done, you're not going to solve this problem.

India can't attack Pakistan because if they do, Pakistan's got the ability to retaliate with a nuclear weapon and vice versa. So the killing's going to go on and the festering that's created from this impasse is just going to grow," he said.

*Noted Pakistani scholar Shuja Nawaz said, "LeT represents -- a word that's been used often -- a Frankenstein's monster created for the purpose of assisting the Kashmiri freedom movement but that ended up becoming a powerful Sunni Punjabi movement with an independent agenda that appears to have taken on a broader regional role."*

It was born out of the US-backed Afghan jihad against the Soviets, and built on the training provided by that war to Punjabi fighters who could then inculcate Kashmiri fighters in their ways.

Successive civil and military leaders of Pakistan supported the movement as a strategic asset to counter a powerful India to the East and to force it to negotiate for a settlement of the disputed territory by waging a war of, quote, "a thousand cuts", he told the lawmakers.

"Over time, however, the sponsored organisation took a life of its own, finding the economically disadvantaged area of Central and Southern Punjab to be a fertile territory for recruitment of Jihadi warriors," he said over time, the ISI began losing its control as the LeT became self sufficient.

"But the realisation that the LeT had become autonomous was slow in being understood or accepted in the ISI and by the military leadership of Pakistan under General Pervez Musharraf," he said.

"General Musharraf did make an effort to lower the political temperature in Kashmir and began distancing the state from the LeT. However, the process was not handled as well as it could have.

*Similar to the disbanding of the Iraqi army after the US invasion when thousands of trained soldiers and officers were let go, the LeT was cut loose without a comprehensive plan to disarm, re-train, and gainfully employ the fighters."*

A dangerous corollary was the induction into the militancy of some former members of the military who had trained and guided them in their war in Kashmir, Nawaz said.

Congressman Gary Ackerman said there is a temptation to think that the LeT is really India's problem, that the LeT is just interested in the so-called "liberation" of Jammu and Kashmir.

"While it's true that the primary area of operations for the LeT has historically been the Kashmir Valley and the Jammu region, the LeT has also undertaken repeated and numerous mass casualty attacks throughout India and, in particular, directed at the Indian government. But the idea that this group can be appeased on the subject of Kashmir is dangerous nonsense," he said.

"The LeT's true goal is not Kashmir, it is India. And the LeT is not shy about announcing that its intention is to establish an Islamic state in all South Asia. Neither does it hide or try to play down its declaration of war against all Hindus and Jews, who they insist are "enemies of Islam", Ackerman said.


----------



## Justin Joseph

LeT, JeM, JuD, Al badr, Taliban the list gies on and on and the elements in pakistan will add more to the list.

There is not a single issue pakistan has other than Real Issue of Hate and Envy.

So, then how can there will be peace.


----------



## Omar1984

* HC would welcome mediation of Saudi Arabia in Indo-Pak dialogues: Mirwaiz 
​*
Chairman Huriyat Conference (HC) Mirwaiz Umar Farooq said that Huriyat Conference would welcome the mediation of Saudi Arabia in negotiations between Pakistan and India.

In an interview with a private TV channel in Jeddah here on Sunday, Mirwaiz said that Saudi Arabia played its important role in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine to solve the issues, therefore, it can also play its role as mediator in Kashmir issue.

He said that peace in South Asia is linked with solution of Kashmir and negotiations over this issue without participation of Kashmiris would never be fruitful.

Mirwaiz said that nine thousand Kashmiris are missing since last twenty years and appealed that Human Rights, Asian Watch and other International Organizations should give their attention towards it.

He also urged on International Community play its role to stop Indian torture in occupied Kashmir and also to give the right of self-determination to the Kashmiris according to the resolutions of United Nations.


----------



## Trichy

UN also tell that to DESTROY the TERROR CAMPS in OCCUPIED KASHMIR by Pakistan, Till now there is nothing done...

like that HC r any will tell as to do this or that like this!!


----------



## Materialistic

> UN also tell that to DESTROY the TERROR CAMPS in OCCUPIED KASHMIR by Pakistan, Till now there is nothing done...



any proofs !!! 

And lets suppose there are terror camps by Pakistan, even though UN would consider first the 1948 resolution, action on which is pending from decades before the terror camp allegations appeared.

And Pakistan should go suport freedom fighters morally, politicaly, financially and with military equipment too, following the Indian road map of Bangladesh. 

A question still remains unanswered 9000 missing kashmiris, and 9000 women molested & raped and 15000 widowed. 

http://www.kashmirobserver.net/inde...ws-in-kashmir-mkm&catid=2:local-news&Itemid=3

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> Abhiras,
> 
> I asked a simple question...
> 
> How Pashtuns and Balochis of Pakistan are related to Indians.. culturally, linguistically, historically, grographically, and in other ways...
> 
> Don't think I am trying to start another war..* I am just interested to see how will you link them with Indians..
> *



In Balochistan, their second-most commonly spoken language is Brahui, Brahui has been hypothesized to have been of proto-Dravidian origin.Recent studies on the origins and affinities of Brahui mostly confirms a relationship with *Dravidian in general, and with North Dravidian in particular.*

i know that you know the Dravidian is fully originated in india


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> In Balochistan, their second-most commonly spoken language is Brahui, Brahui has been hypothesized to have been of proto-Dravidian origin.Recent studies on the origins and affinities of Brahui mostly confirms a relationship with *Dravidian in general, and with North Dravidian in particular.*
> 
> i know that you know the Dravidian is fully originated in india



I didn't ask about Brahui people, they are a small minority in Balochistan. I asked how Pashtuns are Balochis are related with Indians...?


----------



## riju78

come on abhiras and jinxed girl.. let it go...we r not the same...period


----------



## rangbaaz

and the countdown begins again LOL


----------



## jinxeD_girl

lol! Ok! I will let it go.. but I was just curious how Abhiras will link Pashtuns and Balochis with Indians... He avoided my question and jumped straight to Brahui people as expected. I want to see how he will prove that Pashtuns (largest ethnic group of Afghanistan and second largest ethnic group of Pakistan) are Indians whether linguistically, ethnically, culturally and in other aspects.


----------



## jinxeD_girl

riju78 said:


> come on abhiras and jinxed girl.. let it go...we r not the same...period



I didn't say we are NOT the same... I said, we are not 100% same... there are certain elements of Pakistani culture which doesn't descend straight from India and Indians...

On the other hand, Abhiras is holding the point that we are SAME SAME and Pakistan is just an extension of India.. as someone who is part Iranian, I know that is NOT true.


----------



## riju78

jinxeD_girl said:


> I didn't say we are NOT the same... I said, we are not 100% same... there are certain elements of Pakistani culture which doesn't descend straight from India and Indians...
> 
> On the other hand, Abhiras is holding the point that we are SAME SAME and Pakistan is just an extension of India.. as someone who is part Iranian, I know that is NOT true.



i dont agree with most of ur comments in this thread but with the above one i agree totally 100% and hope abhiras will realise and stop this once and for all.....


----------



## WhiteKnight1

Indians are Dravidians and Pakistanis are Indo-Aryans besides this there are other historical background differences that sepearte Indians from Pakistanis. I can never understand why Indians feel such shame about who they really are.


----------



## jinxeD_girl

WhiteKnight1 said:


> Indians are Dravidians and Pakistanis are Indo-Aryans besides this there are other historical background differences that sepearte Indians from Pakistanis. I can never understand why Indians feel such shame about who they really are.



lol! I put the matter to rest and you started it again. Let it go... I think I made a point and they agreed.


----------



## NWO

jinxeD_girl said:


> lol! Ok! I will let it go.. but I was just curious how Abhiras *will link Pashtuns and Balochis with Indians... *He avoided my question and jumped straight to Brahui people as expected. I want to see how he will prove that Pashtuns (largest ethnic group of Afghanistan and second largest ethnic group of Pakistan) are Indians whether linguistically, ethnically, culturally and in other aspects.


Everybody bleeds the same. Everybody cries if they lose a loved one. Everyone resents those that inflict harm onto them or those whom they support. Everyone loves and wants to be loved.

Basically, how are we similar? We all are human beings. Period.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## jinxeD_girl

NWO said:


> Everybody bleeds the same. Everybody cries if they lose a loved one. Everyone resents those that inflict harm onto them or those whom they support. Everyone loves and wants to be loved.
> 
> Basically, how are we similar? We all are human beings. Period.



Occasionally, we all need emotional outbursts like these.. Thanks for reminding us we are all human...  but that wasn't what we were discussing here..


----------



## Peshwa

jinxeD_girl said:


> Occasionally, we all need emotional outbursts like these.. Thanks for reminding us we are all human...  but that wasn't what we were discussing here..



Right....coz you've been discussing the "K" in Kashmir for the last 10 pages now?

Do you really need a hint?

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## jinxeD_girl

Peshwa said:


> Right....coz you've been discussing the "K" in Kashmir for the last 10 pages now?
> 
> Do you really need a hint?



Thats not entirely true Peshwaaaaaaaaa  I am posting pictures of Kashmir along with my other discussions..

and from the topic of discussion I meant the recent topic of "SAME SAME" by Abhiras


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Kashmiri Chicken Tikka

http://img682.imageshack.us/i/kashmircuisine.jpg/


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## WhiteKnight1

NWO said:


> Everybody bleeds the same. Everybody cries if they lose a loved one. Everyone resents those that inflict harm onto them or those whom they support. Everyone loves and wants to be loved.
> 
> Basically, how are we similar? We all are human beings. Period.



I mean seriously right? Why is there such an identity crisis among Indians. I had not idea its that rampant across the world. Here in the U.S. Indians go as far as to bleach their skin to create a different look for themselves. Happiness cannot be achieved this way.


----------



## NWO

jinxeD_girl said:


> Occasionally, we all need *emotional outbursts like these*.. Thanks for reminding us we are all human...  but that wasn't what we were discussing here..


Kind of off topic, but just to clarify, that was made from a logical stand point.

On topic, these areas have been lumped together as one huge area during the Mughal Empire and then during the Raj. They both contain large number of people who speak English as a second language. Both of them have been historically mostly farming, if I remember correctly. They are probably more similar then different, I believe. 

Also, I don't think trying to point out the differences will lead to Pakistan and India trying to form better relationship.


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Half Kashmiri Katrina Kaif The "K" in Pakistan 

http://img688.imageshack.us/i/katrinakaif7.jpg/



See I always revert back to original topic!!


----------



## Peshwa

WhiteKnight1 said:


> I mean seriously right? Why is there such an identity crisis among Indians. I had not idea its that rampant across the world. *Here in the U.S. Indians go as far as to bleach their skin to create a different look for themselves. Happiness cannot be achieved this way.*



Easy there maiser....

Which fanatsy US are you living in?.....Or are u of the belief that fair skinned Indians bleach their skin?

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## jinxeD_girl

NWO said:


> Kind of off topic, but just to clarify, that was made from a logical stand point.
> 
> On topic, these areas have been lumped together as one huge area during the Mughal Empire and then during the Raj. They both contain large number of people who speak English as a second language. Both of them have been historically mostly farming, if I remember correctly. They are probably more similar then different, I believe.
> 
> Also, I don't think trying to point out the differences will lead to Pakistan and India trying to form better relationship.



I agree that there are lots of similarities in Indian/Pakistani culture, but there are lots of differences too... You posted some similarities... now what about some differences 

1. During Achamenid empire Pakistan was lumped together with huge chunks of area known as Persian Empire 

2. Pushtuns are the second largest ethnic group of Pakistan which are basically the same people across the border in Afghanistan, and they follow the same code of honor - Pashtunwali

See it doesnt take much effort to point out the differences either..


----------



## jinxeD_girl

WhiteKnight1 said:


> I mean seriously right? Why is there such an identity crisis among Indians. I had not idea its that rampant across the world. Here in the U.S. Indians go as far as to bleach their skin to create a different look for themselves. Happiness cannot be achieved this way.



Whiteknight1, ADT, ADT1 please stop with your annoying posts.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## WhiteKnight1

Peshwa said:


> Easy there maiser....
> 
> Which fanatsy US are you living in?.....Or are u of the belief that fair skinned Indians bleach their skin?



Dude seriously. The president of the U.S. (a very popular one) - the most powerful nation in the world is black. Just accept who you are. There is nothing to be ashamed about.

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## NWO

A person joins the culture in which they grew up in. For instance, many Japanese people living in American for generations can't speak much Japanese and don't even know the capital of Japan. For Indians trying to act more American, that's just to be expected if they live here long enough. I would find it weird if they don't.

Remember that most Americans don't differentiate between Arabic, Pakistani or Indian.


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## Iggy

WhiteKnight1 said:


> Dude seriously. The president of the U.S. (a very popular one) - the most powerful nation in the world is black. Just accept who you are. There is nothing to be ashamed about.



???????? who said there is no black people in India??I always tell we south Indians are mostly black but there are fair skins too..But Pakistanis are all Aryans and Indians are all Dravidian is not i am not agreeing..there are lots of Aryan decedents in India too..Heck the purana story about Devas and Asuras were about Aryans and Dravidians..in it the Aryans are portrayed as Devas and Dravidians as Asuras ..Even there are political parties in South India called Dravida Munneta Kazhakam and belive me we are proud to be Dravidans..

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## jinxeD_girl

NWO said:


> A person joins the culture in which they grew up in. For instance, many Japanese people living in American for generations can't speak much Japanese and don't even know the capital of Japan. For Indians trying to act more American, that's just to be expected if they live here long enough. I would find it weird if they don't.
> 
> Remember that most Americans don't differentiate between Arabic, Pakistani or Indian.



Ok you made your point that ALL Pakistanis are Indians... and I made mine that we are not... stick with urs and I will stick with mine and put this matter to rest.


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## jinxeD_girl

By the way... your argument is flawed.. Most Pashtun people live in their OWN land "NWFP" and they are speaking their language Pashto for thousand of years..

Your argument is valid only... if they move from NWFP and settle in Punjab or Sindh and then after several generations they will forget their language and start speaking Punjabi or Sindhi.


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## NWO

jinxeD_girl said:


> Ok you made your point that ALL Pakistanis are Indians... and I made mine that we are not... stick with urs and I will stick with mine and put this matter to rest.


Let me clarify. When I said that most Americans don't differentiate between Pakistani, Indian, and Arabic, I meant that when someone post something bad about one of those groups in America, they really saying it about everybody here. 

Here's a example. When someone from America says how Indians are so stupid and then someone from Pakistan says how Americans dislike/hate Indians, they forget that Indians and Pakistanis are viewed as one people, and the American might just be saying it about mostly Pakistanis. 

As for Pakistanis and Indians being the same, I don't think any two human beings are the same. They are some differences but the similarities do outweigh them. I just think the people should get along. We need to be able to differentiate between the government and the people. Most people don't want war or conflict. The government forces it on them. 

The reason that most Americans don't differentiate between the people is because they are so far away and distinct from us. Kind of how like pretty much no body is able to differentiate between a Kenyan and a Nigerian in Pak/India.

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## Peshwa

WhiteKnight1 said:


> Dude seriously. The president of the U.S. (a very popular one) - the most powerful nation in the world is black. Just accept who you are. There is nothing to be ashamed about.



You ask and I deliver.....

Let me be the first one to admit...I am Black as night....hell...wherever I walk darkness spreads around me,.....

But I certainly cant speak for the rest of the 1 billion Indians and you should follow suit....
Unless you have a demographic profile of 1 Billion Indo's.....

If you can prove otherwise...Kiddo....but I highly doubt it.....


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## jinxeD_girl

NWO said:


> Let me clarify. When I said that most Americans don't differentiate between Pakistani, Indian, and Arabic, I meant that when someone post something bad about one of those groups in America, they really saying it about everybody here.
> 
> Here's a example. When someone from America says how Indians are so stupid and then someone from Pakistan says how Americans dislike/hate Indians, they forget that Indians and Pakistanis are viewed as one people, and the American might just be saying it about mostly Pakistanis.
> 
> As for Pakistanis and Indians being the same, I don't think any two human beings are the same. They are some differences but the similarities do outweigh them. I just think the people should get along. We need to be able to differentiate between the government and the people. Most people don't want war or conflict. The government forces it on them.
> 
> The reason that most Americans don't differentiate between the people is because they are so far away and distinct from us. Kind of how like pretty much no body is able to differentiate between a Kenyan and a Nigerian in Pak/India.



So you look up to your white masters for approval and care about their views.. who is same and who is different? Shame on you... 

It applies to us too.... when we see a "white" person.. we stereotypically lump all of them together... but if you go to Europe... each and every european country is proud of their history and culture... there are many similarities but there are many differences too...

Next time Visit Ireland and try convincing them that they are "ENGLISH" or to Scotland and try convincing them that they are "ENGLISH"... and see what happens next... even though English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish pretty much look the same..

Now please stop posting your annoying/stupid arguments..

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## jinxeD_girl

Go try convincing an Irish that they are English or a Ukranian that they are Russian.. and good luck with that!!


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## rangbaaz

Peshwa said:


> You ask and I deliver.....
> 
> Let me be the first one to admit...I am Black as night....hell...wherever I walk darkness spreads around me,.....
> 
> But I certainly cant speak for the rest of the 1 billion Indians and you should follow suit....
> Unless you have a demographic profile of 1 Billion Indo's.....
> 
> If you can prove otherwise...Kiddo....but I highly doubt it.....



you got a nice avatar!

Tipu Sultan


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## WhiteKnight1

NWO said:


> Let me clarify. When I said that most Americans don't differentiate between Pakistani, Indian, and Arabic, I meant that when someone post something bad about one of those groups in America, they really saying it about everybody here.
> 
> Here's a example. When someone from America says how Indians are so stupid and then someone from Pakistan says how Americans dislike/hate Indians, they forget that Indians and Pakistanis are viewed as one people, and the American might just be saying it about mostly Pakistanis.
> 
> As for Pakistanis and Indians being the same, I don't think any two human beings are the same. *They are some differences but the similarities do outweigh them.* I just think the people should get along. We need to be able to differentiate between the government and the people. Most people don't want war or conflict. The government forces it on them.
> 
> The reason that most Americans don't differentiate between the people is because they are so far away and distinct from us. Kind of how like pretty much no body is able to differentiate between a Kenyan and a Nigerian in Pak/India.



You must be a Muhajir or a very very very liberal Punjabi.


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## Peshwa

jinxeD_girl said:


> Go try convincing an Irish that they are English or a Ukranian that they are Russian.. and good luck with that!!



Im going severely offtopic here......But I couldnt resists....

So in the UK....the derogatory term for South Asians is P.A.K.I.....

So as an Indian I should distance myself from considering it an offence limited to Pakistanis only?....
Ive tried making this point to you earlier....In the subcontinent...we harp on petty differences to validate our nationalities....ethnicities etc....

To the westerners and especially the country you live in....It makes sh!t difference....
So as much as you would want to be different from Indians.....you really are NOT!!!

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## NWO

jinxeD_girl said:


> So you look up to your white masters for approval and care about their views.. who is same and who is different? Shame on you...


I have no 'white slave masters'. I look up to leaders who are correct, and whom I admire. George Washington was against slavery, by the way. He was also against colonizing, as you can see in his Farewell Address. 

I never said that Pakistanis or Indians are exactly the same. I just said that the similarities outweigh the differences and I believe that India and Pakistan should try to build a relationship on that. Or at least the people should.

I never said two people from any countries are similar. The reason we lump white people together is because we don't have many exchanges from Europe, at least not culturally. Look at my example of Kenyans and Nigerians. 

Sorry to see that you find my posts annoying and stupid. If it helps any, I really do try to think before I post.


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## Peshwa

rangbaaz said:


> you got a nice avatar!
> 
> Tipu Sultan



Thanks Rangbaaz....

Slight correction tho.....Thats Peshwa Baji Rao in my avatar


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## WhiteKnight1

Peshwa said:


> Im going severely offtopic here......But I couldnt resists....
> 
> So in the UK....the derogatory term for South Asians is P.A.K.I.....
> 
> So as an Indian I should distance myself from considering it an offence limited to Pakistanis only?....
> Ive tried making this point to you earlier....In the subcontinent...we harp on petty differences to validate our nationalities....ethnicities etc....
> 
> To the westerners and especially the country you live in....It makes sh!t difference....
> So as much as you would want to be different from Indians.....you really are NOT!!!



Dude it looks like you still have some serious self identity issues. You need get some mental health counseling.


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## jinxeD_girl

Peshwa said:


> Im going severely offtopic here......But I couldnt resists....
> 
> So in the UK....the derogatory term for South Asians is P.A.K.I.....
> 
> So as an Indian I should distance myself from considering it an offence limited to Pakistanis only?....
> Ive tried making this point to you earlier....In the subcontinent...we harp on petty differences to validate our nationalities....ethnicities etc....
> 
> To the westerners and especially the country you live in....It makes sh!t difference....
> So as much as you would want to be different from Indians.....you really are NOT!!!



Wait wait!! Stop right there... I know some Indian would love to point that out.. 

You know what is ironic about the term "P.A.K.I"? It is usually used for Srilankans, Bangladeshis,Indians, and some Pakistanis who look like them... It is kinda sad... that the above mentioned groups end up getting more racial abuse with the word "P.A.K.I" as Pakistani themselves...

And for that comparison I was going to post the pictures again of Srilankans, Bangladeshis, Indians VERSUS Pakistanis and would have asked them whom have the better chance of being labeled as "P.A.K.I".. but thats another story...

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## Iggy

WhiteKnight1 said:


> Dude it looks like you still have some serious self identity issues. You need get some counseling.



looks like you have problem accepting the facts that what he is saying


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## ramu

WhiteKnight1 said:


> Indians are Dravidians and Pakistanis are Indo-Aryans besides this there are other historical background differences that sepearte Indians from Pakistanis. I can never understand why Indians feel such shame about who they really are.



No one is ashamed of what they are but we are debating the common ancestors and the differences. Historical difference are less than 100 years old, so what differences are you talking about. About Indians trying to prove we are same as Pakistanis, how I wish we had a genetic difference. If you still consider yourself different, all I have to say is the British drew a line on a map and it is incredible that they split two different people. As far as I can see this is not related to the topic at hand. So lets get back to the topic.


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## ramu

seiko said:


> looks like you have problem accepting the facts that what he is saying



Ignore the racist. Does not look like it is going to make sense anyway. I suggest we write something about the topic and not digress.


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## jinxeD_girl

NWO said:


> I have no 'white slave masters'. I look up to leaders who are correct, and whom I admire. George Washington was against slavery, by the way. He was also against colonizing, as you can see in his Farewell Address.
> 
> I never said that Pakistanis or Indians are exactly the same. I just said that the similarities outweigh the differences and I believe that India and Pakistan should try to build a relationship on that. Or at least the people should.
> 
> I never said two people from any countries are similar. The reason we lump white people together is because we don't have many exchanges from Europe, at least not culturally. Look at my example of Kenyans and Nigerians.
> 
> Sorry to see that you find my posts annoying and stupid. If it helps any, I really do try to think before I post.



Whiteknight you are correct.. he is a muhajir.. they are the first and only ones to link themselves with Indians..

This topic is beaten to death in Pak defence forum and many topics got deleted too.. All ethnic groups of Pakistan on this forum (Punjabis, Kashmiris, Pushtuns, Balochis and Sindhis) don't like to link themselves with Indians.. PakistaniNationalist (a baloch), SilentNinja (Pushtun), Jinxed_girl (Punjabi/Iranian)...


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## Iggy

jinxeD_girl said:


> Wait wait!! Stop right there... I know some Indian would love to point that out..
> 
> You know what is ironic about the term "P.A.K.I"? It is usually used for Srilankans, Bangladeshis,Indians, and some Pakistanis who look like them... It is kinda sad... that the above mentioned groups end up getting more racial abuse with the word "P.A.K.I" as Pakistani themselves...
> 
> And for that comparison I was going to post the pictures again of Srilankans, Bangladeshis, Indians VERSUS Pakistanis and would have asked them whom have the better chance of being labeled as "P.A.K.I".. but thats another story...



lolz thats cute..in order to prove your point that Pakistani guys are good looking you are willing to portray the not so good looking Pakistanis as Indians,Sri lankans and Bangladeshis,,...cute really very cute...

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## jinxeD_girl

NWO... if the world is so similar as you are claiming to be.. why we have so many countries in the first place? Forget about the differences.. abolish international borders.. and become 1 big lump of country instead of 140 different countries.. 

We feel like we are been bullied by Indians to accept that we ARE Indians.. Pakistan is a separate country now (despite similarities and differences)... and Indians have to respect that... and stop posting this nonsense stuff that we are same same!!

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## jinxeD_girl

seiko said:


> lolz thats cute..in order to prove your point that Pakistani guys are good looking you are willing to portray the not so good looking Pakistanis as Indians,Sri lankans and Bangladeshis,,...cute really very cute...



Some Pakistanis do look like Indians... don't they?  and i agree we share some similarities with Indians..


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## rangbaaz

Peshwa said:


> Thanks Rangbaaz....
> 
> Slight correction tho.....Thats Peshwa Baji Rao in my avatar



LOL, quite similar to Tipu Sultan (our hero) 

may be it was the style in those days. that's why they look quite similar 

thanks for the correction
cheers


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## Iggy

jinxeD_girl said:


> NWO... if the world is so similar as you are claiming to be.. why we have so many countries in the first place? Forget about the differences.. abolish international borders.. and become 1 big lump of country instead of 140 different countries..
> 
> We feel like we are been bullied by Indians to accept that we ARE Indians.. Pakistan is a separate country now (despite similarities and differences)... and Indians have to respect that... and stop posting this nonsense stuff that we are same same!!





jinxeD_girl said:


> Some Pakistanis do look like Indians... don't they?  and i agree we share some similarities with Indians..



Contradicting yourself huh??so whats your final decision??

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## Peshwa

jinxeD_girl said:


> Wait wait!! Stop right there... I know some Indian would love to point that out..
> 
> *You know what is ironic about the term "P.A.K.I"? It is usually used for Srilankans, Bangladeshis,Indians, and some Pakistanis who look like them... It is kinda sad... that the above mentioned groups end up getting more racial abuse with the word "P.A.K.I" as Pakistani themselves...*
> 
> And for that comparison I was going to post the pictures again of Srilankans, Bangladeshis, Indians VERSUS Pakistanis and would have asked them whom have the better chance of being labeled as "P.A.K.I".. but thats another story...



And you know this being a "White English Woman" that hurls these terms at us poor "P.A.K.I" folks.....
Strange you never thought about why the Englishmen chose the term P.A.K.I and not Indo or Sri-Lankan etc....

Frankly Im done trying to rationalize with you.....
Your posts are becoming more bigotted by the minute.....
And I choose not to be part of this discussion anymore....

You will have to continue without me.....


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## Iggy

rangbaaz said:


> LOL, quite similar to Tipu Sultan* (our hero)
> *
> may be it was the style in those days. that's why they look quite similar
> 
> thanks for the correction
> cheers



Whats that bolded part supposed to mean??


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## NWO

Damn, Kashmir has some beautiful mountains. Don't you guys agree?


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## Peshwa

rangbaaz said:


> LOL, quite similar to Tipu Sultan (our hero)
> 
> may be it was the style in those days. that's why they look quite similar
> 
> thanks for the correction
> cheers



Both great Hero's and generals of our past.....

I followed the series "The Sword of Tipu Sultan" when I was younger...Did you happen to catch it in Pakistan?


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## jinxeD_girl

Peshwa said:


> And you know this being a "White English Woman" that hurls these terms at us poor "P.A.K.I" folks.....
> Strange you never thought about why the Englishmen chose the term P.A.K.I and not Indo or Sri-Lankan etc....
> 
> Frankly Im done trying to rationalize with you.....
> Your posts are becoming more bigotted by the minute.....
> And I choose not to be part of this discussion anymore....
> 
> You will have to continue without me.....



Why you have to look at your white masters and get their approval to convince yourself that we are SAME.. and get some satisfaction..

In U.S.A we have lots of racial slurs for white people too like Crackers etc etc SO?

And only ignorant people whether whites, Pakistani, Arabs etc etc who don't know anything about OTHER cultures/ethnic groups will try to lump people together as same. Most americans are poor at geography and 20% of them can't even locate USA on world map... and you guyz are using their observations and views to prove that we are same same? SHAME ON YOU PEOPLE.. Look at the video below of Miss Teen USA 2007... the judge asked her why 1/5th of Americans cant locate USA on world map and look at her response.. This was a joke all over USA.. and the video became viral for more than an year..


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## rangbaaz

seiko said:


> Whats that bolded part supposed to mean??




our hero means our hero? what's so difficult in understanding this?


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## jinxeD_girl

^^^^^^^^^^ the video is so funny!!


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## WhiteKnight1

You Indian people are amazing. Why do you so badly want to be like us? What is so wrong with your people and your country? You said we are genetically the same  you are taking this to a whole new level. And someone form India points out the fact that 90 years of British rule in Pakistan makes Indians like Pakistanis because they labeled the Pakistani territory the British India . I bet you think Pervez Musharraf is Indian even though his family generations are from Saudi Arabia  : Somebody here called me racist and all I am trying to say that Indian people are their own people and are different from Pakistanis. : Get over your identity crisis. Its great to be admired but seriously accept who you are.


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## rangbaaz

Peshwa said:


> Both great Hero's and generals of our past.....
> 
> I followed the series "The Sword of Tipu Sultan" when I was younger...Did you happen to catch it in Pakistan?



Nope, I didn't see that series but I read about Haider Ali, Tipu Sultan


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## Peshwa

WhiteKnight1 said:


> Dude it looks like you still have some serious self identity issues. You need get some mental health counseling.



Thats what you got from my post?....Comprehension, especially of written English is a must if you want to be a "valuable" member of this forum.....You still have time....try harder....

Just a Thought....


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## Iggy

rangbaaz said:


> our hero means our hero? what's so difficult in understanding this?



Actually Tipu Sultan is a South Indian and he is propbably a Dravidian. so as by Jinxed gal statement he is no way related you and cannot be a hero to you..just think about it a black guy become hero of super looking Pakistan guys/?shame on you people..he is totally different from you people

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## ramu

jinxeD_girl said:


> Whiteknight you are correct.. he is a muhajir.. they are the first and only ones to link themselves with Indians..
> 
> This topic is beaten to death in Pak defence forum and many topics got deleted too.. *All ethnic groups of Pakistan on this forum (Punjabis, Kashmiris, Pushtuns, Balochis and Sindhis) don't like to link themselves with Indians.. PakistaniNationalist (a baloch), SilentNinja (Pushtun), Jinxed_girl (Punjabi/Iranian)...*



This post is an indicator to all the Muslims in India who look up to Pakistan. If you or your ancestors had taken the pains to travel to Pakistan, you would be disowned as a muhajir. Talking about brotherhood among Pakistanis and other Muslims I guess is only on paper considering that Pakistanis consider themselves a superior race forming an elitist club?

jinxeD_girl, you are the biggest racist by miles. I live in the UK and I know who is called P.A.K.I and your explanation is absolutely rubbish. Do a bit of googling and look at the origins of this "racist" word.
About your extrapolation of members of this forum representing ethnic groups is commendable. 

Meaning of P.A.K.I from the urban dictionary

1. A slang term to describe a Pakistani or one of Pakistani descent - used in an intentionally harmless manner **if** it's between non-Pakistanis or Pakistanis themselves.

2. The short version for the term 'pakistani'. Before anybody says anything, it is NOT a racist term, as calling a pakistani a **** is no different to calling someone from Britain a Brit.

3. In the UK at least, used to the person the word is a derogatory racist remark for anyone of South Asian appearance, *even if they're say, Indian.*

4. ...

Consider yourself fortunate that I have not posted the other derogatory things about Pakistan that is on this link that relates to the word. But I would recommend jinxeD_girl and whiteknight to educate themselves.

Urban Dictionary: ****


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## rangbaaz

seiko said:


> Actually Tipu Sultan is a South Indian and he is propbably a Dravidian. so as by Jinxed gal statement he is no way related you and cannot be a hero to you..just think about it a black guy become hero of super looking Pakistan guys/?shame on you people..he is totally different from you people



Ok, you won. stay healthy and happy now

cheers


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## riju78

seiko said:


> Actually Tipu Sultan is a South Indian and he is propbably a Dravidian. so as by Jinxed gal statement he is no way related you and cannot be a hero to you..just think about it a black guy become hero of super looking Pakistan guys/?shame on you people..he is totally different from you people



in 50 years they will claim Shri Abdul Kalam as their hero too...oops maybe not he is also south indian!!


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## rangbaaz

riju78 said:


> in 50 years they will claim Shri Abdul Kalam as their hero too...oops maybe not he is also south indian!!



o nai bhai, he's also yours. you too stay happy and healthy 

khush raho!


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## riju78

rangbaaz said:


> o nai bhai, he's also yours. you too stay happy and healthy
> 
> khush raho!



cant thank u enough for giving our beloved tipu sultan back...


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## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> I didn't say we are NOT the same... I said, we are not 100&#37; same... there are certain elements of Pakistani culture which doesn't descend straight from India and Indians..



even i never said they are 100% same....but i said in general they are same...


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## jinxeD_girl

ramu said:


> This post is an indicator to all the Muslims in India who look up to Pakistan. If you or your ancestors had taken the pains to travel to Pakistan, you would be disowned as a muhajir. Talking about brotherhood among Pakistanis and other Muslims I guess is only on paper considering that Pakistanis consider themselves a superior race forming an elitist club?
> 
> jinxeD_girl, you are the biggest racist by miles. I live in the UK and I know who is called P.A.K.I and your explanation is absolutely rubbish. Do a bit of googling and look at the origins of this "racist" word.
> About your extrapolation of members of this forum representing ethnic groups is commendable.
> 
> Meaning of P.A.K.I from the urban dictionary
> 
> 1. A slang term to describe a Pakistani or one of Pakistani descent - used in an intentionally harmless manner **if** it's between non-Pakistanis or Pakistanis themselves.
> 
> 2. The short version for the term 'pakistani'. Before anybody says anything, it is NOT a racist term, as calling a pakistani a **** is no different to calling someone from Britain a Brit.
> 
> 3. In the UK at least, used to the person the word is a derogatory racist remark for anyone of South Asian appearance, *even if they're say, Indian.*
> 
> 4. ...
> 
> Consider yourself fortunate that I have not posted the other derogatory things about Pakistan that is on this link that relates to the word. But I would recommend jinxeD_girl and whiteknight to educate themselves.
> 
> Urban Dictionary: ****



In U.S.A atleast no one knows about the term P.A.K.I bcoz some ignorant Americans love to club Arabs, Pakistanis, Afghans and Iranians as middle easterners and have different derogatory slurs for them.. and as far as Indians are concerned they call them "dot heads"

Now if we go by U.S.A racial slurs... it means Pakistanis and Indians are different people bcoz one is called dot head and other group is called camel jockeys or rag heads? What kind of argument is that ?

As I said, stop using the benchmark of those people who are far far away from us.. to convince Pakistanis on this forum that we are one and same?


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## jinxeD_girl

and when you guyz are at it.. try convincing a japenese that he is chinese (only bcoz White people say so).. and they will bomb the hell out of you.. 

then move to European countries and try convincing Macedonians that they are Greeks.. (only bcoz they look similar).. and see what happens...

God!! What kind of argument is that ?

Pakistan is separate country now... and you guyz have to accept that... and move on ...


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## Peshwa

jinxeD_girl said:


> Why you have to look at your white masters and get their approval to convince yourself that we are SAME.. and get some satisfaction..



If You're such a "Proud Pakistani"......Why are you living on White Dime in America?....Go back to Pakistan....

But what the hell....wont make much difference.....Even there your economy survives on American aid.....

So much so for being a slave of the "White Master"...

Goodbye.....

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## jinxeD_girl

and when you guyz are at it... try convincing an Assyrian that he is Arab or a Kashmiri that he is Indian... 

Good luck to ya guyz!!


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## riju78

jinxeD_girl said:


> and when you guyz are at it... try convincing an Assyrian that he is Arab or a Kashmiri that he is Indian...
> 
> Good luck to ya guyz!!




so what would u call omar abdullah?? is he an indian puppet?? traitor?? pls enlighten me


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## jinxeD_girl

Peshwa said:


> If You're such a "Proud Pakistani"......Why are you living on White Dime in America?....Go back to Pakistan....
> 
> But what the hell....wont make much difference.....Even there your economy survives on American aid.....
> 
> So much so for being a slave of the "White Master"...
> 
> Goodbye.....



As oppose to U.K., U.S.A have always been land of the immigrants... and only NATIVE Americans have the right to tell us... who can stay and who can leave...

And you know what? By 2050... Whites will be minority in U.S.A and colored people will be majority in USA... YAY TO THAT!!

*More Minority Babies Will Be Born In 2010 Than White Babies, Demographers Predict
*
More Minority Babies Will Be Born In 2010 Than White Babies, Demographers Predict

*U.S. White Population Will Be Minority by 2042, Government Says *

U.S. White Population Will Be Minority by 2042, Government Says - Bloomberg.com


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## ramu

jinxeD_girl said:


> In U.S.A atleast no one knows about the term P.A.K.I bcoz some ignorant Americans love to club Arabs, Pakistanis, Afghans and Iranians as middle easterners and have different derogatory slurs for them.. and as far as Indians are concerned they call them "dot heads"
> 
> Now if we go by U.S.A racial slurs... it means Pakistanis and Indians are different people bcoz one is called dot head and other group is called camel jockeys or rag heads? What kind of argument is that ?
> 
> As I said, stop using the benchmark of those people who are far far away from us.. to convince Pakistanis on this forum that we are one and same?



You know the origin of the word is in UK, so lets cut the BS about US of A as by your own admission they cant locate their own country on the world map. Fair enough, Indians are called dot heads and that is a good reason why NASA, Microsoft, and you name it are head over heals to recruit Indians. Check the percentage of Indians who work in NASA. Intel has a huge R&D unit in Bangalore where the next generation multi core processors are designed by Indians. 

I am not using their benchmark anyway but I am amused by your direct racist remarks about Indians and the ease with which you say all ethnic groups of Pakistan hate Indians and you include Kashmiris. I have several friends from Kashmir and I have a different opinion. I have read several posts about pro Punjab and I am with you on that but when you start with your own versions of P.A.K.I etc and talk about SriLanka, India and conveniently forget Pakistan, I am amused.

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## NWO

jinxeD_girl said:


> Pakistan is separate country now... and you guyz have to accept that... and move on ...


jinxeD_girl, I don't think anyone wants to say that Pakistan and India are 100% the same. I think they just mean to say the similarities outweigh the differences.

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## jinxeD_girl

NWO said:


> jinxeD_girl, I don't think anyone wants to say that Pakistan and India are 100% the same. I think they just mean to say the similarities outweigh the differences.



AND THATS what I said too.. there are lots of similarities but there are lots of differences too..

As a Pakistani, Indians have no right to tell us... whom we are similar to and who we aren't...


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## Ahmad

Beautiful pictures. I now know why pakistan and india are fighting over "K".

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## Abhiras

NWO said:


> jinxeD_girl, I don't think anyone wants to say that Pakistan and India are 100% the same. I think they just mean to say the similarities outweigh the differences.


yeah exactly,what i was trying to say similarities outweigh the differences.


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## jinxeD_girl

I can see all the similarities among Indian and Pakistanis on this forum on each and every issue ranging from politics, kashmir, ethnicity, religion... (cough cough) sarcasm!! 

And NWO, Abhiras claimed that he is Punjabi Brahmin (if he is telling the truth).. many Brahmins support the view of Akhand Bharat.. and his view doesnt matter (atleast to me)


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## jinxeD_girl

If we are so similar why do we need this forum in the first place? Just merge India and Pakistan together and call it "Indian defence forum"...


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## NWO

As for American-Indians, they American because they live there. You always 'join' the culture you are living in. If you lived in Russia your whole life, then you would also love Russia, speak Russian and enjoy its culture. Your skin color does not matter nor your origins matter. Just because blacks are from Africa, does that mean Obama has to go back to his Kenyan village? No, because he 100&#37; American.


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## WhiteKnight1

You Indians are hilarious. You talk bout Pakistanis being racist, uneducated and Pakistanis have better looks than Indians all by twisting our words around. All this emanates from when we say Indians are not like Pakistanis. Somebody tried to bring in genetics, and then you tell us to go back Pakistan. LOL. Then you say we discriminate against Indian Muslims because we say Indians are different from us. Then somebody says all Pakistanis migrated from India to Pakistan.  Whats next - everybody in Pakistan converted to Islam as they were originally Hindu?  Why such the inferiority-complex guys? Be proud of India and who you are.


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## NWO

jinxeD_girl said:


> If we are so similar why do we need this forum in the first place? Just merge India and Pakistan together and call it "Indian defence forum"...


Because this is for the country of Pakistan, and not just for the people. Like I said, you have to be able to differentiate between the government and the people. What the government does is not necessarily what the people want.


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## jinxeD_girl

NWO said:


> As for American-Indians, they American because they live there. You always 'join' the culture you are living in. If you lived in Russia your whole life, then you would also love Russia, speak Russian and enjoy its culture. Your skin color does not matter nor your origins matter. Just because blacks are from Africa, does that mean Obama has to go back to his Kenyan village? No, because he 100% American.



How your argument is related to Indian/Pakistani argument? In other words you are not trying to say... that we should join with India and join their culture bcoz of similarities?? 

Are you sure you are Pakistani?


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## riju78

riju78 said:


> so what would u call omar abdullah?? is he an indian puppet?? traitor?? pls enlighten me



jinxed..i'm still waiting


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## jinxeD_girl

Please NWO... please dont start a thread of unification of India/Pakistan... if thats the direction you are taking this argument to... There have been similar threads like this.. and the outcome was the same!!

99&#37; Pakistanis dont want to join or unite with India again.. It is the majority opinion that matters, right ? and please put this matter to rest.


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## jinxeD_girl

riju78 said:


> jinxed..i'm still waiting



Who is omar abdullah?


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## Iggy

jinxeD_girl said:


> I can see all the similarities among Indian and Pakistanis on this forum on each and every issue ranging from politics, kashmir, ethnicity, religion... (cough cough) sarcasm!!
> 
> And NWO, Abhiras claimed that he is Punjabi Brahmin (if he is telling the truth).. many Brahmins support the view of Akhand Bharat.. and his view doesnt matter (atleast to me)



its total stupidity from your part that many brahmins support the view of Akhand Bharat..Akhand Bharat was known to many of the Indians here after some hindu militant group got caught ..no way in India people thinking of Akand Bharat..it was Pakistan members who trying to impose all Indians are dreaming about Akhand Bharat...well news flash for you..we have better things to do than some wettish dreams ..


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## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> And NWO, Abhiras claimed that he is Punjabi Brahmin (if he is telling the truth).. many Brahmins support the view of Akhand Bharat.. and his view doesnt matter (atleast to me)


what point you are trying to prove????

Well yes i 'Abhiras Sharma' is a punjabi brahmin....so what?? what point you wanna prove????

& we are happy with the present bharat...we do not want akhand bharat.....


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## riju78

jinxeD_girl said:


> Who is omar abdullah?



thank you... u have answered my question!


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## NWO

jinxeD_girl, I posted that reply in response as to why some Indians in America act more American then Indian. I can see how it can be seen wrongly since the 'identity crisis' thing was posted a long time ago.

As for being Pakistani, I was born there. I lived, however, in America my whole life. That's why I joined this forum. To discuss more about my native country, my 'motherland', and learn more about it. Thankfully, I can say that I have learned much about Pakistan, India and China as well in only a few weeks.


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## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> Who is omar abdullah?



he is a chief minister of Jammu & kashmir


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## ramu

WhiteKnight1 said:


> You Indians are hilarious. You talk bout Pakistanis being racist, uneducated and Pakistanis have better looks than Indians all by twisting our words around. All this emanates from when we say Indians are not like Pakistanis. Somebody tried to bring in genetics, and then you tell us to go back Pakistan. LOL. Then you say we discriminate against Indian Muslims because we say Indians are different from us. Then somebody says all Pakistanis migrated from India to Pakistan.  Whats next - everybody in Pakistan converted to Islam as they were originally Hindu?  Why such the inferiority-complex guys? Be proud of India and who you are.



White Knight, I would prefer to die than to be like you. Hope that satisfies your question. That should remove all doubts about the speculated inferiority complex. 






I think this video should open your eyes about India. As far as I can see, you will not have the patience to watch. In this summit is a top banker from Pakistan and be patient to hear his views about India. 

In short, he wants to have a growth multiplier effect in Pakistan because of the economic progress in India.


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## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> what point you are trying to prove????
> 
> Well yes i 'Abhiras Sharma' is a punjabi brahmin....so what?? what point you wanna prove????
> 
> & we are happy with the present bharat...we do not want akhand bharat.....



we dont want to join you guyz either... never ever.. we are different people now!

Think of uniting with Sri Lanka or Bangladesh... only if they want to!!

Thank you!


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## riju78

Abhiras said:


> he is a chief minister of Jammu & kashmir



she was being sarcastic abhi....


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## jinxeD_girl

riju78 said:


> she was being sarcastic abhi....



No I swear to God, i don't know who is Omar Abdullah.. I will surf the internet and get to know Omar Abdullah.


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## jinxeD_girl



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## Iggy

jinxeD_girl said:


> we dont want to join you guyz either... never ever.. we are different people now!
> 
> Think of uniting with Sri Lanka or Bangladesh... only if they want to!!
> 
> Thank you!



Lady we have no Intention to Unite Sri Lanka nor Bangladesh..as for you country we dont want your country at any cost..we dont want additional problems in our country..so get out from the illusion that India is going to grab your country..we are not interested..its just a myth created by your government to grow fear among common people and create a monster to hate other than the government

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## jinxeD_girl

seiko said:


> Lady we have no Intention to Unite Sri Lanka nor Bangladesh..as for you country we dont want your country at any cost..we dont want additional problems in our country..so get out from the illusion that India is going to grab your country..we are not interested..its just a myth created by your government to grow fear among common people and create a monster to hate other than the government



good!! Then stop claiming we are same same!!  and Sri lankans and Bangladeshis don't want to join you guyz either..

Anywayz, stick back to the topic...

Tahira Saeed and her Kashmiri family - The K in Pakistan 

http://img69.imageshack.us/i/tahirasaeed.jpg/


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## Abhiras

riju78 said:


> she was being sarcastic abhi....


oh i see....i did not get that





jinxeD_girl said:


> we dont want to join you guyz either... never ever.. we are different people now!
> 
> Think of uniting with Sri Lanka or Bangladesh... only if they want to!!
> 
> Thank you!



yeah,,,even we cannot think to accepting pakistan as part of india....we may be different now but we have a same background(that i was telling) and we should continue & try to become good friend.....it is good of whole of the Indian Subcontinent (south asia)


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## jinxeD_girl

Tahira Saeed singing a Kashmiri Song


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## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> *but we have a same background(that i was telling)*



Try telling that to Afghan Nationalists who claim 60% Pakistan


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## EjazR

*Geelani men attack Yasin Malik - dnaindia.com*

Srinagar: Supporters Syed Ali Shah Geelani, chief of the hardline faction of the Hurriyat Conference, attacked a Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) convoy at Sopore, 50 km from Srinagar, on Sunday.

Six people were injured and vehicles damaged. The attackers were carrying daggers and stones.

Chairman Yasin Malik and other JKLF leaders were returning to Srinagar after handing over Rs9.4 lakh to a committee in Chinkipora which is rehabilitating residents whose houses were damaged in a recent encounter between the security forces and militants.

Malik was leading a procession in the area after handing over the relief money when suddenly some goons owing allegiance to Geelanis organisation attacked us in a bid to create panic, a JKLF spokesman said.

People in the procession drove the goons away, but when Malik and other leaders boarded their vehicles, they resurfaced and launched another attack with stones and daggers, he said, adding, One of the five injured received stab wounds in his neck. He was rushed to hospital.

Malik, however, managed to escape unhurt.

He [Malik] was in the front vehicle which had already left the venue when the goons attacked, a JKLF leader said.

The hooligans were shouting pro-Geelani slogans. We have identified the miscreants, he said.

Meanwhile, superintendent of police (Sopore) Altaf Khan said the situationwas under control. The situation has always been under control. We chased away the attackers, he said.

The JKLF spokesman said, It was a pre-planned attack. Their action was unfortunate and shameful.

---------------

Just an example to show that Geelani reflects the minuscule minority view -------even among the separatists.

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## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> Try telling that to Afghan Nationalists who claim 60% Pakistan


Should not we stop fighting now??? We will fight some another time....


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## WhiteKnight1

What is so bad about India that you want to be like us? Why can not Indians be proud of who they are? I thought it was only here in the U.S. that Indians had a inferiority-complex - ie. bleaching skin, shunning other Indians, being embarassed when talking about their homeland. But this is ridiculous you are living in India/moved from India and you hate everything there by implying that India is similar to others nations? 

Let me tell you something, being unique in this world goes a long way. Nobody is going to show you respect when you pretend to be somebody/something that you are not. It will vividly show your insecurity, your inferiority-complex and your character of being a follower. You will not succeed in this world if you cannot accept who you are. Be proud of India, be proud of your religion, be proud to be an Indian.

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## Iggy

lolz what happening to all these separatists and terrorists??Earlier there was a news about TTP factions firing at each other and now this..really nice ..


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## Desert Fox

seiko said:


> lolz what happening to all these separatists and terrorists??Earlier there was a news about TTP factions firing at each other and now this..really nice ..



its not nice when innocent civilians get caught up in the crossfire.


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## sparklingway

Infighting does not reflect the difference in opinion when it comes to liberation, only goes to show how some people can fight over small matters and how people are obsessed with getting the limelight for themselves.


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## jinxeD_girl

WhiteKnight1 said:


> What is so bad about India that you want to be like us? Why can not Indians be proud of who they are? I thought it was only here in the U.S. that Indians had a inferiority-complex - ie. bleaching skin, shunning other Indians, being embarassed when talking about their homeland. But this is ridiculous you are living in India/moved from India and you hate everything there by implying that India is similar to others nations?
> 
> Let me tell you something, being unique in this world goes a long way. Nobody is going to show you respect when you pretend to be somebody/something that you are not. It will vividly show your insecurity, your inferiority-complex and your character of being a follower. You will not succeed in this world if you cannot accept who you are. Be proud of India, be proud of your religion, be proud to be an Indian.



Dude, we put the matter to rest and then you start trolling again... Stop it now... Some Pakistani girls use bleach creams too, although it never works.. U can be tanned, but you can never be lighter..And Iranians get nose jobs all the time.. White people are obsessed with tanning salons etc etc...


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## WhiteKnight1

jinxeD_girl said:


> Dude, we put the matter to rest and then you start trolling again... Stop it now... Some Pakistani girls use bleach creams too, although it never works.. U can be tanned, but you can never be lighter..And Iranians get nose jobs all the time.. White people are obsessed with tanning salons etc etc...



I was just saying Indians are not Pakistanis and Pakistanis are not Indians. We have very very minimal similarities _if any_. Indians should not attempt to distort the identities of other nations if they hate who they are. OK I am finished.

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## Iggy

SilentNinja said:


> its not nice when innocent civilians get caught up in the crossfire.



Its always nice to see some terrorists kill each other for power..if you read my post i said its nice to see those terrorists and separatists fight among each other..


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## jinxeD_girl

WhiteKnight1 said:


> I was just saying Indians are not Pakistanis and Pakistanis are not Indians. We have very very minimal similarities _if any_. Indians should not attempt to distort the identities of other nations if they hate who they are. OK I am finished.



For some reason it feels like you are Afghan... I don't know why but my 6th sense is telling me this... enjoying the fights between Pakistanis and Indians.. 

You writing style is kinda similar to Pakhtunz who got banned...


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## WhiteKnight1

No I am not Afghan.


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## ramu

WhiteKnight1 said:


> What is so bad about India that you want to be like us? Why can not Indians be proud of who they are?




 


You did not read my previous post but started blabbering in a tangential direction.


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## WhiteKnight1

You need some psychological help. I really do feel sorry for you and your people.


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## ramu

WhiteKnight1 said:


> You need some psychological help. I really do feel sorry for you and your people.



Thanks for the suggestion but don't be bothered about someone as insignificant as myself. 

Why don'f you mind your business and *contribute something useful to this thread instead of writing nonsense. *


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## rangbaaz

yar tum log saray kavvay kha kar aye ho kya?

take a break guys :p


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## MilesTogo

some how it feels as if Pakistanis secretly want to unite with India...


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## jinxeD_girl

MilesTogo said:


> some how it feels as if Pakistanis secretly want to unite with India...



I am sure that feeling makes you feel so good..  and I am sure you won't admit that on this forum..


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## MilesTogo

Actually I feel sad.



jinxeD_girl said:


> I am sure that feeling makes you feel so good..  and I am sure you won't admit that on this forum..


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## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> I am sure that feeling makes you feel so good..  and I am sure you won't admit that on this forum..


come on we do not want unstable pakistan to merge into stable india......we are happy with out 8% growth....


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## ramu

Abhiras said:


> come on we do not want unstable pakistan to merge into stable india......we are happy with out 8% growth....



I think India has a zillion problems to deal with and we don't want twice the number. As Abhiras wrote, thanks but no thanks.

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## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> come on we do not want unstable pakistan to merge into stable india......we are happy with out 8% growth....



Pakistan should build a wall with India after Kashmir dispute is over... for now a symbolic wall would be fine... as I am not concerned what India and Indians do... I never join their forums to find more about them or what they are upto...


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## jinxeD_girl

GOOD NEWS

All of us were fighting... and I forgot to give you guyz the good news.. I completely forgot about it...

I took Priya 3 to Salon yesterday and got rid of her mustache... she looks quite attractive now by Indian standards.. she was thanking me so much.. It really made me happy to make her feel good about herself..


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## ramu

jinxeD_girl said:


> Pakistan should build a wall with India after Kashmir dispute is over... for now a symbolic wall would be fine... as I am not concerned what India and Indians do... I never join their forums to find more about them or what they are upto...



Why a wall? A fence wont do ?
After resolving Kashmir... hope that happens in my lifetime.


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## A.R.

jinxeD_girl said:


> I am sure that feeling makes you feel so good..  and I am sure you won't admit that on this forum..



i acctually feels sometime a larger country is more powerful.. yes there are some problems to both sides in unification... but the brighter side is we will be more powerful... more powerful in the entire world and in every field.


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## jinxeD_girl

ramu said:


> Why a wall? A fence wont do ?
> After resolving Kashmir... hope that happens in my lifetime.



Even if Kashmir dispute isn't resolved.. Pakistan should accept status quo and build a wall with India.. I don't know why, but I need a wall instead of a fence...


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## jinxeD_girl

A.R. said:


> i acctually feels sometime a larger country is more powerful.. yes there are some problems to both sides in unification... but the brighter side is we will be more powerful... more powerful in the entire world and in every field.



I will be the first one to commit suicide if Pakistan merges with India again..


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## ramu

jinxeD_girl said:


> GOOD NEWS
> 
> All of us were fighting... and I forgot to give you guyz the good news.. I completely forgot about it...
> 
> I took Priya 3 to Salon yesterday and got rid of her mustache... she looks quite attractive now by *Indian standards..* she was thanking me so much.. It really made me happy to make her feel good about herself..



JinxeD_girl, I am sure you mean well and you did a nice thing but stop covertly writing things that is in bold. Lets just stop this and I have mentioned the nth time that this is racist.


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## MilesTogo

Keep up the good work. You are doing a great service to humanity especially for Indians, cleaning up unwatned hair. Good luck.



jinxeD_girl said:


> GOOD NEWS
> 
> All of us were fighting... and I forgot to give you guyz the good news.. I completely forgot about it...
> 
> I took Priya 3 to Salon yesterday and got rid of her mustache... she looks quite attractive now by Indian standards.. she was thanking me so much.. It really made me happy to make her feel good about herself..


----------



## jinxeD_girl

ramu said:


> JinxeD_girl, I am sure you mean well and you did a nice thing but stop covertly writing things that is in bold. Lets just stop this and I have mentioned the nth time that this is racist.



 Yeah I mean well... What I meant to say was that she got some compliments from Indian guyz and she was real happy about it.. It really boosted her self esteem... 

It made me feel good too.. Now the next step is to get her a nice hair cut and style with some highlights.


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## A.R.

jinxeD_girl said:


> I will be the first one to commit suicide if Pakistan merges with India again..



if you want to commit suicide do it now.... world is to much populous now.... it would be a good relief for the world


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## ramu

jinxeD_girl said:


> Yeah I mean well... What I meant to say was that she got some compliments from Indian guyz and she was real happy about it.. It really boosted her self esteem...
> 
> It made me feel good too.. Now the next step is to get her a nice hair cut and style with some highlights.



 Keep up the good work.


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## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> Even if Kashmir dispute isn't resolved.. Pakistan should accept status quo and build a wall with India.. I don't know why, but I need a wall instead of a fence...


india & no country accept status quo as international border........india want full jammu and kashmir.....


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## jinxeD_girl

A.R. said:


> if you want to commit suicide do it now.... world is to much populous now.... it would be a good relief for the world



Then who will take Priya 3 for a hair cut then? I promised her now...


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## MilesTogo

But it is good to know that Pakistanis don't have unwanted body hair.


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## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> india & no country accept status quo as international border.......*.india want full jammu and kashmir.*....



yeah that will make Indians feel better, right? To get more and more land... without caring the sentiments of the people...


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## jinxeD_girl

MilesTogo said:


> But it is good to know that Pakistanis don't have unwanted body hair.



Whether Indians or Pakistanis, people should groom themselves... mustache never looks good on a girl.. especially when it is so prominent as in the case of Priya 3... she looks like the girl posted by ADT in some other thread...


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## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> yeah that will make Indians feel better, right? To get more and more land... without caring the sentiments of the people...



kashmir is part of india just like baluchistan part of pakistan......((both provincies got some saperatist movement....))

Well we do not want more and more land we only want our Kashmir which was given to us by the king of Kashmir..& Pakistan is illegally occuping 1/3 of it.....


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## A.R.

jinxeD_girl said:


> Then who will take Priya 3 for a hair cut then? I promised her now...



no problem... pakistanies are good in breaking promisies..you will make your country proud


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## MilesTogo

OK - let me rephrase. It is good to know that Pakistani's have unwated hair but Pakistani girls always make it a point to remove them which is a good thing and Indian girls could learn that from Pakistanis.



jinxeD_girl said:


> Whether Indians or Pakistanis, people should groom themselves... mustache never looks good on a girl.. especially when it is so prominent as in the case of Priya 3... she looks like the girl posted by ADT in some other thread...


----------



## jinxeD_girl

Abhiras said:


> kashmir is part of india just like baluchistan part of pakistan......((both provincies got some saperatist movement....))
> 
> Well we do not want more and more land we only want our Kashmir which was given to us by the king of Kashmir..& Pakistan is illegally occuping 1/3 of it.....



You can have your Kashmir... and after that Pakistan should build a big wall with these people on the Eastern side of our border.. so they can leave us alone...


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## jinxeD_girl

MILESTOGO,

stop making everything an Indian/Pakistani issue... mustache is mustache... it doesnt looks good on a girl and it has to go.. No excuse for a mustache whether Indian/Pakistani/Brazilian/American... etc etc


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## A.R.

jinxeD_girl said:


> You can have your Kashmir... and after that Pakistan should build a big wall with these people on the Eastern side of our border.. so they can leave us alone...



that must be very good for us..
why dont you make your government understand about it... write an application about it before committing suicide


----------



## Abhiras

jinxeD_girl said:


> You can have your Kashmir... and after that Pakistan should build a big wall with these people on the Eastern side of our border.. so they can leave us alone...



ok after giving us kashmir back.......build a wall or dug a well in your pakistan ...we would have no problem.....


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## MilesTogo

Are you implying that Pakistani girls have unwanted hair as well?



jinxeD_girl said:


> MILESTOGO,
> 
> stop making everything an Indian/Pakistani issue... mustache is mustache... it doesnt looks good on a girl and it has to go.. No excuse for a mustache whether Indian/Pakistani/Brazilian/American... etc etc


----------



## jinxeD_girl

MilesTogo said:


> Are you implying that Pakistani girls have unwanted hair as well?



read post 441, i am quoting it here for your convenience..

think giving an "excuse" of "village girl" for bad hygienic and grooming habits doesn't work... You said yourself, she is literate and you won't be surprised to see her speaking english and wearing western dresses... then what is the excuse for having a mustache?

I have seen some desis (few Pakistanis included, but especially Indians), have bad hygienic habits... like they wont take bath everyday, their clothes smell like food, won't take care of themselves... and then they ruin the impression of all desis in western countries and that is where the stereotypes against desis come from.. There should be no excuse for lack of grooming skills...

Speaking of that it is time to get rid of Priya's mustache... tomorrow she will be in salon!!


----------



## MilesTogo

I am confused again. Are you all implying that Pakistani and Indians are desis?



jinxeD_girl said:


> read post 441, i am quoting it here for your convenience..
> 
> think giving an "excuse" of "village girl" for bad hygienic and grooming habits doesn't work... You said yourself, she is literate and you won't be surprised to see her speaking english and wearing western dresses... then what is the excuse for having a mustache?
> 
> I have seen some desis (few Pakistanis included, but especially Indians), have bad hygienic habits... like they wont take bath everyday, their clothes smell like food, won't take care of themselves... and then they ruin the impression of all desis in western countries and that is where the stereotypes against desis come from.. There should be no excuse for lack of grooming skills...
> 
> Speaking of that it is time to get rid of Priya's mustache... tomorrow she will be in salon!!


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## jinxeD_girl

A.R. said:


> that must be very good for us..
> why dont you make your government understand about it... write an application about it before committing suicide



Whatever it takes... (even if we have to loose part of our Kashmir)... Pakistan should build a wall with these people...

I have tried to give my mind all kind of excuses "Beauty is in the eye of Beholder" etc etc, but personally I think Indians are one of the most ugliest races on earth... I have never seen a good looking Indian in real life... 

I say, give them Kashmir, and get rid of Indians once and for all..

Otherwise, I have to move to Iran... my ancestral land from my Father's side..


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## jinxeD_girl

I wish I was born in some other country... and Pakistan never bordered India...

so I don't have to deal with these people...


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## Windjammer

MilesTogo said:


> Are you implying that Pakistani girls have unwanted hair as well?



AS WELL ?? as well as it can be, seems you guys have the exclusive as PPP is not just a political party, it's a buzz word for our lassies.
Polished Pakistani Porcelain.


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## MilesTogo

When you say Indian's are the ugliest race, are you including Indian Muslims as well?



jinxeD_girl said:


> Whatever it takes... (even if we have to loose part of our Kashmir)... Pakistan should build a wall with these people...
> 
> I have tried to give my mind all kind of excuses "Beauty is in the eye of Beholder" etc etc, but personally I think Indians are one of the most ugliest races on earth... I have never seen a good looking Indian in real life...
> 
> I say, give them Kashmir, and get rid of Indians once and for all..
> 
> Otherwise, I have to move to Iran... my ancestral land from my Father's side..


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## jinxeD_girl

MilesTogo said:


> When you say Indian's are the ugliest race, are you including Indian Muslims as well?



You are trying to bait me now... 

No comments.. 

Suffice to say, I am not religious.


----------



## asq

Only place for hair is Head, mustche hair is only good if u r a manly man living in asia , in erope and Amerca it is not common.

All hair must be cleaned as they trap and breed germs. Facial hair is o.k. if one can keep it clean, but other not seen by eye isdirty as it is covered and is a place not accdesed by many for alzyness and other reasons.

So keep it clean and be healthy.


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## MilesTogo

You mean you don't believe in Allah?



jinxeD_girl said:


> You are trying to bait me now...
> 
> No comments..
> 
> Suffice to say, I am not religious.


----------



## asq

jinxeD_girl said:


> You are trying to bait me now...
> 
> No comments..
> 
> Suffice to say, I am not religious.



Converted or Naturelized. which Muslims.


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## jinxeD_girl

MilesTogo said:


> You mean you don't believe in Allah?



I do... but what it has to do with Indian Muslims ?

Allah = God = Bhagwan = Khuda <---- different names for the same God


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## jinxeD_girl

jinxeD_girl said:


> You are trying to bait me now...
> 
> No comments..
> 
> Suffice to say, I am not religious.



99% Indians muslims are converts... are you trying to tell me that they look any different than Indian Hindus ?


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## asq

Death of humans is a tregedy no matter who does it, all matters should be solved by negotaitions with virtue of Justice based on Democracy.


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## jinxeD_girl

asq said:


> Only place for hair is Head, mustche hair is only good if u r a manly man living in asia , in erope and Amerca it is not common.
> 
> All hair must be cleaned as they trap and breed germs. Facial hair is o.k. if one can keep it clean, but other not seen by eye isdirty as it is covered and is a place not accdesed by many for alzyness and other reasons.
> 
> So keep it clean and be healthy.



^^^^^^  :d


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## MilesTogo

So Only Indian Hindus are ugliest and not the Indian Muslims?


jinxeD_girl said:


> I do... but what it has to do with Indian Muslims ?
> 
> Allah = God = Bhagwan = Khuda <---- different names for the same God


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## jinxeD_girl

MilesTogo said:


> So Only Indian Hindus are ugliest and not the Indian Muslims?



read my post above... Indians Hindus look the SAME as Indian Muslims...


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## jinxeD_girl

Now stick back to the topic...

KASHMIRI WOMEN protesting in Kashmir 


http://img412.imageshack.us/i/k1234.jpg/


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## MilesTogo

jinxeD_girl said:


> read my post above... Indians Hindus look the SAME as Indian Muslims...



Ok So, all the Indians including Indian Muslims are the ugliest race on this earth. This is good to know. What about the Punjabis?

I am assuming they are the ugliest race on this earth as well?


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## MilesTogo

And what about the Muslims who migrated to Pakistan at the time of partition? Are they ugliest race on earth as well?


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## jinxeD_girl

MilesTogo said:


> Ok So, all the Indians including Indian Muslims are the ugliest race on this earth. This is good to know. What about the Punjabis?
> 
> I am assuming they are the ugliest race on this earth as well?



In many cases, Punjabis and Kashmiris look different from other Indians... especially Indian Kashmiris.. but what percentage of Indian population do they make? 3%?


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## MilesTogo

jinxeD_girl said:


> In many cases, Punjabis and Kashmiris look different from other Indians... especially Indian Kashmiris.. but what percentage of Indian population do they make? 3%?



OK, so all indians including indian muslims except Punjabis and Kashmiris are ugliest race on earth?

What about Indian Sindhis?


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## jinxeD_girl

MilesTogo said:


> And what about the Muslims who migrated to Pakistan at the time of partition? Are they ugliest race on earth as well?



I answered that question long time ago.. 

There is No correlation what so ever between religion and attractiveness.. 

A Muslim from Kerala will look like Someone from Kerala.. A Muslim from Kashmir will look like someone from Kashmir and so on..


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## MilesTogo

jinxeD_girl said:


> I answered that question long time ago..
> 
> There is No correlation what so ever between religion and attractiveness..
> 
> A Muslim from Kerala will look like Someone from Kerala.. A Muslim from Kashmir will look like someone from Kashmir and so on..



So only Punjabi and Kashmiri Muhajirs are ok, rest all the Muhajirs are ugliest race on earth?


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## jinxeD_girl

MilesTogo said:


> OK, so all indians including indian muslims except Punjabis and Kashmiris are ugliest race on earth?
> 
> What about Indian Sindhis?



I never met any Sindhi (whether Indian or Pakistani)... when I will find a large population of them.. I will let ya know... Sindhi Hindu makes like 0.01% of Indian population.. which is rather insignificant

You have any pics of Sindhi Hindus? post them? And I will give you an honest opinion about them..


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## MilesTogo

jinxeD_girl said:


> I never met any Sindhi (whether Indian or Pakistani)... when I will find a large population of them.. I will let ya know... Sindhi Hindu makes like 0.01% of Indian population.. which is rather insignificant
> 
> You have any pics of Sindhi Hindus? post them? And I will give you an honest opinion about them..



What about Pakistani Sindhis? Are they at par with Punjabis and Kashmiris?


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## thebrownguy

jinxeD_girl said:


> I never met any Sindhi (whether Indian or Pakistani)... when I will find a large population of them.. I will let ya know... Sindhi Hindu makes like 0.01% of Indian population.. which is rather insignificant
> 
> You have any pics of Sindhi Hindus? post them? And I will give you an honest opinion about them..



I am a Sindhi hindu, so which gene or bloodline have you chosen for us?


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## WhiteKnight1

Don't tell me you are insecure about yourself too. This is a never ending story.


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## jinxeD_girl

MilesTogo said:


> So only Punjabi and Kashmiri Muhajirs are ok, rest all the Muhajirs are ugliest race on earth?



I dont know... what you consider as attarctive?

Here are three girlz... The first one is Punjabi Hindu girl, the second one is Punjabi Sikh girl and the third one is a Hindu girl from U.P. I don't know how they define attractiveness in India? Maybe the girl from U.P. is considered beautiful in India? If that is the case... then Pakistanis and Indians are using different benchmark for attractiveness and I am sorry to offend you 

http://img696.imageshack.us/i/punjabihindu.jpg/

http://img689.imageshack.us/i/punjabisikh.jpg/

http://img163.imageshack.us/i/upgirl.jpg/


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## ramu

WhiteKnight1 said:


> Don't tell me you are insecure about yourself too. This is a never ending story.




The only person who is insecure about himself is you.

As I said before, I can't see on single post of yours that contributes anything meaningful to this thread.


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## MilesTogo

You haven't offended me. So per your definition, fair compexion is a requirement to be attractive?


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## jinxeD_girl

MilesTogo said:


> What about Pakistani Sindhis? Are they at par with Punjabis and Kashmiris?



As I said.. I never met any.. post some random pictures of Sindhis.. and I will give you my honest opinion about them..


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## jinxeD_girl

MilesTogo said:


> You haven't offended me. So per your definition, fair compexion is a requirement to be attractive?



No... but well defined facial features is... even if THAT girl from U.P had very very fair complexion.. she is not attractive.. not in my eyes...


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## thebrownguy

This thread is a waste of bandwidth !! Later!!


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## asq

After asking milllion questions about uglyness, Indian on this thread wasted 47 pages to say that tthis thread does not contribute anything.

first waste space and than cry foul.

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## ramu

[/QUOTE]

AnotherUP girl :
Again you are so biased JinxeD.








Looks like old habits die hard. This thread should be closed and I think I will leave it you guys to debate on beauty.


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## MilesTogo

jinxeD_girl said:


> No... but well defined facial features is... even if THAT girl from U.P had very very fair complexion.. she is not attractive.. not in my eyes...



So, complexion is not important but facial features are? So, for example thick lips will be categorised as ugly? Is that right? Are other bodily features important as well?


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## WhiteKnight1

..............


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## jinxeD_girl

AnotherUP girl :
Again you are so biased JinxeD.




[/QUOTE]

I checked your image link and it says

saifali.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/chitrangada_singh.jpg?w=150&h=150

Singh are usually Punjabis.. i checked her biography on wikipedia... and all it says she was born in Meerut..

Again you posted a pic of some Indian celebrity... On the other hand.. I keep on posting the pictures of ordinary everyday people...


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## asq

We donot ask for Freedom of Kashmir.U.N and Kashmiris do and we stand for freesdom anywhere any time.

Remember what we the pakistanis stand for in the case of palistine. in the case of Bosnia, in the case of Afghanistan when invaded by Russia. 

On the other hand India in each of the above case is sitting on the fance. waiting for the instruction from lords of the wolrd.


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## jinxeD_girl

MilesTogo said:


> So, complexion is not important but facial features are? So, for example thick lips will be categorised as ugly? Is that right? Are other bodily features important as well?



Angelina Jolie have thick lips... they are considered very attractive...

http://img83.imageshack.us/i/angelinajolie1m.jpg/


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## ramu

^^^


OK I give up ...


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## jinxeD_girl

Whiteknight1.. Priya 3 looks little more attractive now that she got rid of her mustache..


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## MilesTogo

Ok. I get it. Well defined facial features, complexion is not important, what about the other bodily features?


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## jinxeD_girl

asq said:


> After asking milllion questions about uglyness, Indian on this thread wasted 47 pages to say that tthis thread does not contribute anything.
> 
> first waste space and than cry foul.



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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## jinxeD_girl

MilesTogo said:


> Ok. I get it. Well defined facial features, complexion is not important, what about the other bodily features?



Just post the pictures of some south indians which YOU consider as attractive (no celebrities please).. and I will let you know if I consider them beautiful and attractive too...

That will show us, if we are on same page or not on what we find attractive.


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## MilesTogo

jinxeD_girl said:


> Just post the pictures of some south indians which YOU consider as attractive (no celebrities please).. and I will let you know if I consider them beautiful and attractive too...
> 
> That will show us, if we are on same page or not on what we find attractive.



OK I will not post anyone's pictures without permission but let me take some names;

1. Sherry rehman
2. Ishrat Ashraf
3. Marvi Menon
4. Uzma Gul
5. Reena Kumari
6. Izaz-ul-haq
7. Nawaz Sharif
8. General zia
9. Altaf Hussain


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## WhiteKnight1

MilesTogo said:


> OK I will not post anyone's pictures without permission but let me take some names;
> 
> 1. Sherry rehman
> 2. Ishrat Ashraf
> 3. Marvi Menon
> 4. Uzma Gul
> 5. Reena Kumari
> 6. Izaz-ul-haq
> *7. Nawaz Sharif*
> 8. General zia
> 9. Altaf Hussain



Is not south Indian.


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## jinxeD_girl

MilesTogo said:


> OK I will not post anyone's pictures without permission but let me take some names;
> 
> 1. Sherry rehman
> 2. Ishrat Ashraf
> 3. Marvi Menon
> 4. Uzma Gul
> 5. Reena Kumari
> 6. Izaz-ul-haq
> 7. Nawaz Sharif
> 8. General zia
> 9. Altaf Hussain



All the pictures I have posted are in public domain taken from commercial websites, no privacy related issues here... otherwise I would have posted PRIYA 3, before and after pics.


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## jinxeD_girl

Show me 1 good looking South Indian girl in real life.. and I will admit that there are some good looking girlz in South India..

and for 1 good looking girl from South India.. I will post dozen good looking girlz from Punjab, Kashmir and NWFP.. guaranteed...


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## Hammy007

why the hell are mods not moderating or closing this thread, it is supposted to be a image thread dedicated to our beautiful kashmir which has turned into online racial battle field like a nazi propaganda, 

you guys are really sick head :vomit: :vomit:

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

_________________________________________________________________________________________________
************

************************
***************

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

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## jinxeD_girl

While you search for some "good looking" south indians... I have to go now.. have other things to do.. weekend is over...


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## Hammy007

jinxeD_girl said:


> While you search for some "good looking" south indians... I have to go now.. have other things to do.. weekend is over...



hey nazi paranoid girl go fight some racial purity some where else, your posts should be not welcomed by mods.........

go and search for an aryan race man to marry you ok who may have racial racial superiority

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## Gin ka Pakistan

Independent Kashmir means cold war of China and USA.


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## WhiteKnight1

*Kashmir in its entirety belongs to:*


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## DesiGuy

Interdependent Kashmir between India and Pakistan will survive!!!???


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## Gin ka Pakistan

DesiGuy said:


> Interdependent Kashmir between India and Pakistan will survive!!!???



The Day Kashmir will get Independence either China or US will move in. Its China's back yard.


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## DesiGuy

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> The Day Kashmir will get Independence either China or US will move in. Its China's back yard.





Exactly. however i think in that case, china will use Pakistan and USA will use India IN that independent Kashmir. And these poor Kashmirs will have to suffer.

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## asq

DesiGuy said:


> Exactly. however i think in that case, china will use Pakistan and USA will use India IN that independent Kashmir. And these poor Kashmirs will have to suffer.



As if they have not suferd enough under Indian opewessions.

I rather have kashmiris under U.S. anytime than India, cause if I look at the U.S. it realizes at certain point that it was wrong and tries to correct the problem. Cases in point are Iraqi jails. killing of vietnamese by an American soldier and charge lavied against.

This kind of justice is never taken by another country specialy India in Kashmir or other situation such as that of attacks on Samjhota train.

Even thiough I think that Kashmiris will clearly chose to join Pakistan given the opertunity, but if they chose to go it alone I am sure they will be better off under U.S. influence than Indian.


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## paritosh

Hutchroy said:


> Here are some excerpts. When you have time please read the full Article :
> 
> LRB · Tariq Ali · Bitter Chill of Winter
> 
> *Bitter Chill of Winter - Tariq Ali*



from the article...


> he *Pathan tribesman* under Khurshid Anwars command halted after reaching Baramulla, only an hours bus ride from Srinagar, and refused to go any further. Here they embarked on a three-day binge, looting houses, assaulting Muslims and Hindus alike, *raping men* and women


that I did not know!


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## graphican

Jackdaws said:


> It's a simple enough question. I just want to know why invade an independent country and then ask for its independence?



One simple reason. *It should be Independent from Indian Occupation.* India has never been able to prove that Kashmiri Maharajah allied with India. People of Kashmir want to be part of Pakistan and India has left no grounds what so ever to claim Kashmir. 

You might be surprised that inclusion of Kashmir in Pakistan before Pakistan was so evident that world Pakistan has K representing Kashmir.

*P*unjab
*A*fghan Border States (NWFP)
*K*ashmir
*S*ind
Baluchis*tan*

Letter i was added to make the word easy to speak and rest of the letters are representation of areas Pakistan will be made on.

What is your point in keeping Kashmir? Kashmiri Pandits? Some 50&#37; of Population of Punjab was Hindu/Sikhs and rest were Muslims but because of Muslim Majority area, it got split. Even if you follow the same principle for Kashmir, more than half of it goes to Pakistan and in Kashmir, this balance is not even 50,50 as nearly *67%* are Muslims, *30%* Hindus and rest comprise Sikhs and Buddhists.


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## graphican

Abhiras said:


> that is True pakistan.........& ironically they ask for* freedom of kashmir*



Freedom of Kashmir from Indian Occupation. Write complete sentence at least.


----------



## RobbieS

paritosh said:


> from the article...
> 
> that I did not know!



This is a pretty well known fact to Indian military historians but is entirely overlooked by Pakistanis. In fact strictly in military terms, Pakistan paid the price for using primarily tribals and irregular troops. If these Pathan tribals hadn't stopped to satisfy their urges they would have reached Srinagar in half a day. This gave the Indian Army the time to air lift troops into Baramulla and halt the invasion. And this is where there occurred the battle which saw the first PVC awardee, Capt. Somnath Sharma.


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## paritosh

RobbieS said:


> This is a pretty well known fact to Indian military historians but is entirely overlooked by Pakistanis. In fact strictly in military terms, Pakistan paid the price for using primarily tribals and irregular troops. If these Pathan tribals hadn't stopped to satisfy their urges they would have reached Srinagar in half a day. This gave the Indian Army the time to air lift troops into Baramulla and halt the invasion. And this is where there occurred the battle which saw the first PVC awardee, Capt. Somnath Sharma.



but I can't forgive them ever for *raping men*!!!!!


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## Raje amar

graphican said:


> Freedom of Kashmir from Indian Occupation. Write complete sentence at least.



ya boys keep on, you cant do better than this.


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## BJlaowai

graphican said:


> One simple reason. *It should be Independent from Indian Occupation.* India has never been able to prove that Kashmiri Maharajah allied with India. People of Kashmir want to be part of Pakistan and India has left no grounds what so ever to claim Kashmir.
> 
> You might be surprised that inclusion of Kashmir in Pakistan before Pakistan was so evident that world Pakistan has K representing Kashmir.
> 
> *P*unjab
> *A*fghan Border States (NWFP)
> *K*ashmir
> *S*ind
> Baluchis*tan*
> 
> Letter i was added to make the word easy to speak and rest of the letters are representation of areas Pakistan will be made on.
> 
> What is your point in keeping Kashmir? Kashmiri Pandits? Some 50% of Population of Punjab was Hindu/Sikhs and rest were Muslims but because of Muslim Majority area, it got split. Even if you follow the same principle for Kashmir, more than half of it goes to Pakistan and in Kashmir, this balance is not even 50,50 as nearly *67%* are Muslims, *30%* Hindus and rest comprise Sikhs and Buddhists.



You missed the letter 'I' in PAKISTAN. Does 'I' stand for Iran? Why doesn't Pakistan demand 'azadi' for Iran?
Why doesn't Pakistan claim the whole of Afghanistan, which is represented by letter 'A' in Pakistan?
Why is 'B' for Bengal missing? Bengal/Bangladesh/East-Pakistan was part of Pakistan from 1947 to 1971.
Tomorrow if someone makes a claim that 'A' in Pakistan stands for America, will Pakistan send 'freedom fighters' to USA to liberate it?

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## BJlaowai

paritosh said:


> but I can't forgive them ever for *raping men*!!!!!



Come on man. Have you not read the article clearly? It says clearly the rapists were Pathans. What do you expect them to do when pretty goats are not around?

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## ice_man

RobbieS said:


> This is a pretty well known fact to Indian military historians but is entirely overlooked by Pakistanis. In fact strictly in military terms, Pakistan paid the price for using primarily tribals and irregular troops. If these Pathan tribals hadn't stopped to satisfy their urges they would have reached Srinagar in half a day. This gave the Indian Army the time to air lift troops into Baramulla and halt the invasion. And this is where there occurred the battle which saw the first PVC awardee, Capt. Somnath Sharma.



the tribals stopped because NEHRU promised a plebiscite! & to trust him was i think the biggest blunder by pakistan!!! the tribals didn't do anything wrong in kashmir all reports of their "atrocities" were fabricated!! if not then please explain why the azad kashmirs didn't want to get back with india then or now!!

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## third eye

graphican said:


> One simple reason. *
> 
> You might be surprised that inclusion of Kashmir in Pakistan before Pakistan was so evident that world Pakistan has K representing Kashmir.
> 
> Punjab
> Afghan Border States (NWFP)
> Kashmir
> Sind
> Baluchistan
> 
> Letter i was added to make the word easy to speak and rest of the letters are representation of areas Pakistan will be made on.
> 
> *


*

A childish way of attempting to make a case.

Assuming for a hypothetical moment for that to be true then :

1. Why was Pak talking of Junagadh & Hyderabad - these letters are not in PAKISTAN ?

2. The founders saw so far ahead as to pick the 'K" form J&K but chose to ignore the 'B' of Balouchistan ? Hmm... Is this why the Balouchs are unhappy !!

3. How about the ' T' ? Did they foresee the T word too which is getting to be synonymous with Pak ? !!*

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## BJlaowai

third eye said:


> A childish way of attempting to make a case.
> 
> Assuming for a hypothetical moment for that to be true then :
> 
> 1. Why was Pak talking of Junagadh & Hyderabad - these letters are not in PAKISTAN ?
> 
> 2. The founders saw so far ahead as to pick the 'K" form J&K but *chose to ignore the 'B' of Balouchistan ?* Hmm... Is this why the Balouchs are unhappy !!
> 
> 3. How about the ' T' ? Did they foresee the T word too which is getting to be synonymous with Pak ? !!



They did use Balochistan. But used last 4 letters of the provinces name and used the first letter of the other provinces. May be thats why the Balochis are so pissed..
I wonder how could they forget about Bengal, which constituted almost half of Pakistans land area and population..


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## ice_man

Jackdaws said:


> One thing I wish to know is -
> 
> If Pakistan want Kashmir's independence - then why did they invade an independent Kashmir in the first place?
> 
> What do Pakistani history books teach? Do they teach that India invaded Kashmir first? Or do they teach that the ruler of Kashmir appealed to the Indian state after Pakistan had invaded and was fairly close to Srinagar?



After india ANNEXED JUNGADH & INVADED HYDERABAD DECCAN! Pakistan new it would only be a matter of time before india makes the treacherous similar move against kashmir! hence we moved in our troops just a text book copy of what indians had done in junagadh!!!! 

So we from day one learnt the art from you! so spare me the crap talk about invasion!!!


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## mjnaushad

BJlaowai said:


> Come on man. Have you not read the article clearly? It says clearly the rapists were Pathans. What do you expect them to do when pretty goats are not around?


And what do you do when their are no "Morrtis" around 

Racist post reported.

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## RobbieS

ice_man said:


> the tribals stopped because NEHRU promised a plebiscite! & to trust him was i think the biggest blunder by pakistan!!! the tribals didn't do anything wrong in kashmir all reports of their "atrocities" were fabricated!! if not then please explain why the azad kashmirs didn't want to get back with india then or now!!



Wrong! Tribals stopped when they had to engage regular Indian Army troops. From that point on they were pushed back to the current LOC. The plebiscite issue cropped up much later when Nehru (to his folly) went to the UN.


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## Dream

Why India & Pakistan always fight so much ??? Whatever happened ... its now past !! but we dont learn from it ... and spend billions and billions over developing weapons and other armouries .... it would have been so much better had this money would been invested in education, health and infrastructure ! Comon guys all of you are educated ... we all should look forward to live peacefully and develop ourselves rather than bullying and swearing at each other ... both the countries have damaged each other a lot ... lets start a new beginning ... and focus on education, health and other important aspects !

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## BJlaowai

mjnaushad said:


> And what do you do when their are no "Morrtis" around
> 
> Racist post reported.



What is racist in my post?
What is Morrtis??


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## ice_man

RobbieS said:


> Wrong! Tribals stopped when they had to engage regular Indian Army troops. From that point on they were pushed back to the current LOC. The plebiscite issue cropped up much later when Nehru (to his folly) went to the UN.



firstly why did the pakistan tribals intervene and not the pakistan army? reason being the then Chief of the army was a british & didn't allow his troops which by then were pakistani troops to enter the battle! hence when the tribals reached srinagar & the indian army moved in the ill equipped tribals didn't have a chance against a proper army!!! while pakistani troops sat helplessly waiting for orders from their chief!!!


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## RobbieS

ice_man said:


> firstly why did the pakistan tribals intervene and not the pakistan army? reason being the then Chief of the army was a british & didn't allow his troops which by then were pakistani troops to enter the battle! hence when the tribals reached srinagar & the indian army moved in the ill equipped tribals didn't have a chance against a proper army!!! while pakistani troops sat helplessly waiting for orders from their chief!!!



The answer to your questions lies in the article that was used to start this thread. You could read it again.


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## ice_man

RobbieS said:


> The answer to your questions lies in the article that was used to start this thread. You could read it again.


*
In Hyderabad and Junagadh  Hindu majority, Muslim royals  the rulers wobbled, but finally chose India.*

in both instances INDIAN ARMY went in & declared the states annexed! Hence fearing indian intentions and knowing indian tactics used in both cases pakistan couldn't risk kashmir getting annexed to! and as usual MOUNT BATTEN was a PRO indian man he strictly warned pakistan of doing similar move to the one used by indian army in junagadh or hyderabad! 

as for pakistan triabls raping & looting baramullah well why did they wait till baramullah? were there better looking women their or was their any hidden wealth which no one knew of? its a fabricated BS written after the events unfolded! just like no one knows who started killing first the people fleeing from one country to another! the indians believe it started from lahore to amritsar train while we believe it started from amritsar to lahore!!!!


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## third eye

Op Polo - the Hyderabad action took place in 1948.

Pak was inside J&K in 1947.

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## BJlaowai

ice_man said:


> firstly why did the pakistan tribals intervene and not the pakistan army? *reason being the then Chief of the army was a british & didn't allow his troops which by then were pakistani troops to enter the battle!* hence when the tribals reached srinagar & the indian army moved in the ill equipped tribals didn't have a chance against a proper army!!! while pakistani troops sat helplessly waiting for orders from their chief!!!



No..
It was because the Raja of Kashmir had signed standstill agreements with both India and Pakistan.
But Pakistan cunningly used the pastun tribesmen to invade Kashmir, thereby not officially breaking the standstill agreement..
India intervened only after raja Hari Singh signed the instrument of accession, acceding the princely state of J&K to Indian union, after the pastun tribesmen backed by Pakistan were about to capture Srinagar.
If Pakistan had not played the double-game of using the tribesmen to invade the princely state of J&K, India would not have any excuse to send troops to Srinagar and in all possibility J&K would have remained an Independent state.. or even have merged with Pakistan.

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## asq

paritosh said:


> from the article...
> 
> that I did not know!



One thing that Pathans have is morals about women sanctity, so i will not be intrested even reading all this, the guy who wrote this may an anti Pathans and so his deductions about raping muslim women is his imagination running wild.

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## asq

RobbieS said:


> Wrong! Tribals stopped when they had to engage regular Indian Army troops. From that point on they were pushed back to the current LOC. The plebiscite issue cropped up much later when Nehru (to his folly) went to the UN.



False they were not pushed back, on the promise of nehru for plebicite to be held under U.N. supervision. Liaqat ali the than prime minister ordered them to pull back as India was to do the same to fullfill first condition set by U.N. for plebicite, but Nehru promise was false, he did not act on it, Very cunning.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The tribal invasion was in response to the brutalities of the dictator Maharajah.
> 
> There was an indigenous movement for freedom by local Kashmiris against the dictator, before the tribal invasion, that was brutally suppressed by the Maharajah. Entire villages were burnt down and men, women and children massacred by the Maharajah's forces in cracking down on the rebellion against his dictatorship.
> 
> Subsequently, tens of thousands of refugees poured out of Kashmir into Pakistan. This coincided with the partition massacres and news of entire trains full of massacred Muslims arriving from India.
> 
> That is what led to the tribal force being organized to defeat the dictator Maharajah, and the subsequent low level Pakistani support for that tribal force.



So if this is a plausible reason, then Pakistan should not complain about India's role in 1971. Seems like a lot of factors were similar. Except of course, India got a new country established in form of Bangladesh with its independence intact, and Pakistan practically annexed the territory it *liberated *. It named it Azad though...


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## asq

No Karan. it was east pakistan and had been east Pakistan from 1947 to 1970 and india interfered in internal matters of Pakistan.


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## RobbieS

asq said:


> False they were not pushed back, on the promise of nehru for plebicite to be held under U.N. supervision. Liaqat ali the than prime minister ordered them to pull back as India was to do the same to fullfill first condition set by U.N. for plebicite, but Nehru promise was false, he did not act on it, Very cunning.



There was a time lag between the initiation of hostilities between the tribals and the Indian Army and the ceasefire. If you read the timeline you''ll come to know.


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## asq

RobbieS said:


> There was a time lag between the initiation of hostilities between the tribals and the Indian Army and the ceasefire. If you read the timeline you''ll come to know.



It was not a timeline, it was a usual Indian trick as it is playing since than.

Bangladesh, Water, nuclear weapons etc etc.


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## AHMED85

there are some solution for both countries to save Kashmir 
1) fair talk from both side solve this problem but in serious condition.
2) one war from both side have present good role 
but don't make unnecessarily argues to time waste 
coz we have already make a lot of debate in government level as well as social.... stop trolling 
Kashmir is (paradise)
utilize it for your best not to make it (hell).


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## Jade

The whole of Kashmir belongs to India. No Independence nor UN plebiscite; No force on this earth can part Kashmir from India.

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## Jade

RIZWAN_AIOU said:


> there are some solution for both countries to save Kashmir
> 1) fair talk from both side solve this problem but in serious condition.
> 2) one war from both side have present good role
> but don't make unnecessarily argues to time waste
> coz we have already make a lot of debate in government level as well as social.... stop trolling
> Kashmir is (paradise)
> utilize it for your best not to make it (hell).



What fair talks are you talking about? On Kashmir? We cannot have talks that compromises Indias Integrity


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## AHMED85

jade1982 said:


> What fair talks are you talking about? On Kashmir? We cannot have talks that compromises Indias Integrity



cool down man you have some advance thinking for India
but it is essential for Indian solidarity and peace to solve Kashmir other wise second option is danger for both.
hosh kai nakon loo.........


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## Jade

RIZWAN_AIOU said:


> cool down man you have some advance thinking for India
> but it is essential for Indian solidarity and peace to solve Kashmir other wise second option is danger for both.
> hosh kai nakon loo.........



What use is peace without integrity?


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## AHMED85

jade1982 said:


> What use is peace without integrity?



what do you mean integrity
you will make peace in Ashia if your thinker consider on it .


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## karan.1970

asq said:


> No Karan. it was east pakistan and had been east Pakistan from 1947 to 1970 and india interfered in internal matters of Pakistan.



And Kashmir was an independent entity in 1947 in whose internal affairs pakistan interfered.


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## Jade

RIZWAN_AIOU said:


> what do you mean integrity
> you will make peace in Ashia if your thinker consider on it .



Integrity for us means totality.


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## AHMED85

karan.1970 said:


> And Kashmir was an independent entity in 1947 in whose internal affairs pakistan interfered.



But Kashmirs do not think the Kashmir is a part of India as well as Pakistan if you need some reality try to find him in the heart of kashmires. with out any type of killing and cruelness ...
stop trolling.


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## AHMED85

jade1982 said:


> Integrity for us means totality.



who take two two make quarrel.
remember it


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## paritosh

asq said:


> One thing that Pathans have is morals about women sanctity, so i will not be intrested even reading all this, the guy who wrote this may an anti Pathans and so his deductions about raping muslim women is his imagination running wild.



well...9/10 Pathans have a strict adherence to Pakthunwali...but there are crazy people everywhere...
but no one rapes men...and if they do...it makes up for a bigger news than that...!


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## EjazR

*Daily Times - Gilgit-Baltistan Order 2009 challenged in Supreme Court*

ISLAMABAD: A petition seeking the declaration of the Gilgit-Baltistan (empowerment and self-governance) Order 2009 as &#8216;ultra vires&#8217; of the constitution was filed in the Supreme Court on Thursday.

The petition was filed by Shafqat Ali Khan &#8211; resident of Panyal tehsil in Ghizar district &#8211; under Article 184(3) of the constitution through Muhammad Ikram Chaudhry advocate, making the federal government the respondent in the case.

*The petition contended that the 2009 order was in total negation of the rights of citizens belonging to Gilgit and Baltistan and in disregard of the constitution. &#8220;The Gilgit-Baltistan Order 2009 gives a formula that is inconsistent with the constitution, thus it is liable to be cancelled and declared ultra-vires of the constitution&#8221;, the petition said.*

*It said the order of 2009 is also against the SC judgement of 1999 SCMR 1379, where the apex court directed the federation to take appropriate steps to ensure the right to self-rule and independent judiciary for the Northern Areas of Pakistan.*


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

What part of the constitution is the G-B Order 2009 against?

Since G-B is technically not part of Pakistan and is not considered a part of Pakistan under the constitution, I am unsure as to what exactly is being challenged as being 'unconstitutional'.


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## Jade

RIZWAN_AIOU said:


> But Kashmirs do not think the Kashmir is a part of India as well as Pakistan if you need some reality try to find him in the heart of kashmires. with out any type of killing and cruelness ...
> stop trolling.



Firstly, all Kashmiris don&#8217;t want independence or plebiscite. Only a minuscule number residing in Kashmir Valley may want a plebiscite. However, Just because Tibetans think that they don&#8217;t belong to China doesn't mean China should grant independence or plebiscite. If that is the case there would be thousands of states based on religion, ethnicity, ideologies, and languages


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## jarnee

mrwarrior006 said:


> ^^^^OMG PAKISTANIS REALLY DID THIS



self corrected


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## jarnee

last hope for solution favorable to Pakistan was in Musharraf era.


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## ice_man

third eye said:


> Op Polo - the Hyderabad action took place in 1948.
> 
> Pak was inside J&K in 1947.



NOPE! junagadh was annexed by indian in november & plebisicte was held in december! 

The Nawab acceded to the Dominion of Pakistan on 15 August 1947. Pakistan accepted this on 13 September. When Pakistan confirmed the acceptance of the accession in September, the Government of India was outraged that Muhammad Ali Jinnah could accept the accession of Junagadh despite his argument that Hindus and Muslims could not live as one nation.[1] Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel believed that if Junagadh was permitted to go to Pakistan, it would exacerbate the communal tension already simmering in Gujarat.

The princely state was surrounded on all three sides by India, with an outlet to the Arabian Sea. The unsettled conditions in Junagadh had led to a cessation of all trade with India and the food position became precarious. The region was in crisis and the Nawab was forced to flee to Karachi with his family fearing for his life and established a provisional government with his followers.

Patel offered Pakistan time to void the accession and to hold a plebiscite in Junagadh. Samaldas Gandhi formed a government-in-exile, the Aarzi Hukumat (in Urdu:Aarzi: Temporary, Hukumat: Government) of the people of Junagadh. Eventually, Patel ordered the forcible annexation of Junagadh's three principalities. Junagadh's state government, facing financial collapse and lacking forces with which to resist Indian force, invited the Government of India to take control in October. A plebiscite was conducted in December.


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## ice_man

BJlaowai said:


> No..
> It was because the Raja of Kashmir had signed standstill agreements with both India and Pakistan.
> But Pakistan cunningly used the pastun tribesmen to invade Kashmir, thereby not officially breaking the standstill agreement..
> India intervened only after raja Hari Singh signed the instrument of accession, acceding the princely state of J&K to Indian union, after the pastun tribesmen backed by Pakistan were about to capture Srinagar.
> If Pakistan had not played the double-game of using the tribesmen to invade the princely state of J&K, India would not have any excuse to send troops to Srinagar and in all possibility J&K would have remained an Independent state.. or even have merged with Pakistan.



ohh the poor indian people so nice & peace loving! so innocent makes tears come into my eyes!!


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## ice_man

paritosh said:


> well...9/10 Pathans have a strict adherence to Pakthunwali...but there are crazy people everywhere...
> but no one rapes men...and if they do...it makes up for a bigger news than that...!



yes and we specifically picked out 1/10 to go into kashmir so they can rape & plunder but wait we told them don't do any killing or raping until you are a few kilometers from srinagar! 

look you & i both know culture is disintegrating now! in 1947 people upheld morales & cultures & traditions! so keep the BS to yourself about raping men,goats & when nothing was found women!


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## ice_man

the only solution to kashmir is a free independent kashmir! with a international status of neutrality just like switzerland! with UN peace force guarding it from both pakistan & india!!! the right to rule themselves! kashmir is neither india's nor pakistan's!!!! kashmir is for kashmiris!


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## BJlaowai

ice_man said:


> ohh the poor indian people so nice & peace loving! so innocent makes tears come into my eyes!!



WOW.. Do you really mean it?
Thanks for the nice compliments about India and Indians. 
You seem to be more sensible and understanding than your other countrymen. You are too sentimental man ..


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## BJlaowai

ice_man said:


> the only solution to kashmir is a free independent kashmir! with a international status of neutrality just like switzerland! with UN peace force guarding it from both pakistan & india!!! the right to rule themselves! kashmir is neither india's nor pakistan's!!!! kashmir is for kashmiris!



Pehle aap janaab..
Pakistan can start the ball rolling by first vacating Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (so called Azad Kashmir) and give them Kashmiris their independance.


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## Jackdaws

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Yep - why invade a free country?


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## Moorkh

why is the guy a burqa type of dress?

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## Bull

Black Blood said:


> The Picture is already been investigated , it is not from Mumbai Drama but from sri nagar.
> 
> 
> *Take your propaganda out of this thread !*



What he hell !!!


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## Iggy

Bull said:


> What he hell !!!



 Never mind.. he takes pictures from a site which desperately wanted to proove Indian Atrocities in Kashmir ..Dont be surprised if there is a picture of police lathi charging people in Kerala in this thread

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## Windjammer

seiko said:


> Never mind.. he takes pictures from a site which desperately wanted to proove Indian Atrocities in Kashmir ..Dont be surprised if there is a picture of police lathi charging people in Kerala in this thread



And i suppose over half million Indian Army is just there to prevent police from committing such atrocities.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Moorkh said:


> why is the guy a burqa type of dress?




same ol same ol ...


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## Hulk

Black Blood said:


> *Thanks for Highly Informative Post.*



10 times better then your unwanted warnings, none of the links I posted were from amnesty international as claimed by you.


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## HariSeldon

Black Blood said:


>



SO what you were saying...Mumbai is in Kashmir or Mumbai attack was false flag or Ajamal Kasab is Amar Singh????

Seriously....most of the pics in first 3 page are so bland... so out of context that even a die-hard-india-basher will find it difficult to use them for india-bashing. I know you can do better. Make more effort. What you have not been able to do in 60 yrs in 4 battles and using ur Jihad, these pics might be able to achieve.


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## Hulk

HariSeldon said:


> SO what you were saying...Mumbai is in Kashmir or Mumbai attack was false flag or Ajamal Kasab is Amar Singh????
> 
> Seriously....most of the pics in first 3 page are so bland... so out of context that even a die-hard-india-basher will find it difficult to use them for india-bashing. I know you can do better. Make more effort. What you have not been able to do in 60 yrs in 4 battles and using ur Jihad, these pics might be able to achieve.



These people go for internet to validate everything, if internet says you have no power at home, they will not try to check if that really is the case.


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## HariSeldon

Omar1984 said:


> Look at that girl's expression on her face. She seems disgusted to see that indian soldier.
> 
> Who would want their land to be surrounded by soldiers with rifles in their hands everywhere they go. From birth to death they see these indian soldiers everywhere everyday. Its like living in prison.



Disgust??? hmm you need to go out and meet more ppl so you can understand more about facial expression. To me she seems to happy to be able to study, rather than there schools getting blown up and being lashed for not wearing burqa.

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## HariSeldon

I think we Indian shuld thank BB and others posting pics in this thread. Title talks abt atrocities and killing and equate India with Israel and Kashmir with Palestine. Half of the pics have police using cane. And most the of time showing restrain. So much for the atrocities.


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## FreekiN

HariSeldon said:


> I think we Indian shuld thank BB and others posting pics in this thread. Title talks abt atrocities and killing and equate India with Israel and Kashmir with Palestine. Half of the pics have police using cane. And most the of time showing restrain. So much for the atrocities.



I don't think I have to show you the articles of newly discovered mass graves in Indian-occupied Kashmir?

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## Kompromat

FreekiN said:


> I don't think I have to show you the articles of newly discovered mass graves in Indian-occupied Kashmir?



*Post them now !*


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## KeenGuy

Black Blood said:


> *Dedicated Thread for Pictures and Multimedia , depicting Indian occupation of J&K.
> 
> Mods Please make it Sticky.
> 
> Thanks / B.B  *



Why is India doing these things? This atrocities of innocent needs to be stopped.


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## KeenGuy




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## FreekiN

*2600 bodies including civilians found in Kashmir mass grave*
A human rights group in Kashmir said it had discovered some 2,600 unmarked graves linked to the region's pro-freedom movement.
Wednesday, 02 December 2009 23:42

A human rights group in Kashmir said on Wednesday it had discovered some 2,600 bodies from an unmarked grave, including scores of civilians and called on authorities to launch an investigation. 

The graves were found in cemeteries in 55 villages close to the Line of Control, according to the International People's Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice in Indian Administered Kashmir (IPTK). 

"The graveyards investigated by IPTK entomb bodies of those murdered in encounter and fake encounter killings between 1990-2009," Angana P. Chatterji, IPTK's convener, said at a news conference.

Nearly 90 percent of the graves were unmarked, she said. 

In a report titled "Buried Evidence" released Wednesday, the group documented 2,373 "unmarked and mass graves" containing nearly 2,600 bodies. It said 177 of the graves contained more than one body. 

"We're not saying who is in each grave. But we're saying these are unnamed graves and its imperative to investigate the issue by an independent international body," said Angna Chatterji, one of the group's members. 

The Himalayan region is at the heart of a decades-long dispute between India and Pakistan, who have fought two of their three wars over the issue since they won freedom from British rule in 1947. 

*Tens of thousands of [innocent] Muslims have been killed since pro-independent moves grew against Indian rule in 1989. *

Last year, the same rights group, said they had discovered nearly 1,000 unmarked graves in 18 villages in the same area. 

Kashmiris see India as an "occupier" and accuse the ruling of systematic violations, killing dozens of civilians in Himalayan region. 

International human rights groups, which put the toll at about 70,000 dead or missing, have in the past asked Indian authorities to investigate whether unmarked graves hold bodies of civilians who have disappeared as Indian troops attacked fighters. 

Indian security forces in the troubled region have been accused of killing civilians in staged gun battles and passing them off as pro-independent fighters to earn rewards and promotions. 

2600 bodies including civilians found in Kashmir mass grave [ WORLD BULLETIN- TURKEY NEWS, WORLD NEWS ]

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## HariSeldon

KeenGuy said:


> Why is India doing these things? This atrocities of innocent needs to be stopped.



Oh man....you are so hilarious....First thing...learn some basic skill of PR...

The security man has gun and instead of using it..he tries to get away with stone-pelting mob.....Any one looking at this photo must be confused....Who is doing atrocities???? What ever this is...it does not take your agenda of Kashmir forward.....

Third part outside In-Pk looking at this pic will not believe your line. This pic shows "Mob is using stones for protest and security man is not using his gun even when he is targeted" Amnesty & Human Right guys will be pleased.


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## amoverlord

jade1982 said:


> Excellent Idea.
> 
> As for the photographs are concerned, they are nothing but BS propaganda against India. Kashmiris are Indians, we understand them much better than you even can understand them.




actually...my friend this pictures r the reality of kashmir...may be the pakistani members r using it to there favor but none the less....
anyway i dont understand why indians n pakistanis r so fired up(to the levels of maniacs,sometimes) on the topic of kashmir(only)....when both have 100 more serious issues to bang there heads on...
Q-can kasmir solved with force?
A-absolutely not....
Q-indias stand on kashmir,help solve it?
A-absolutely not...
Q-pakistans stand on kashmir,help solve it?
A-absolutely not...
Q-terroristshang2: freedomfighters)will help solve it?
A-absolutely not...

so as i see...its going nowhere......


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## IMADreamer

Black Blood said:


>





Black Blood said:


> The Picture is already been investigated , it is not from Mumbai Drama but from sri nagar.
> 
> 
> *Take your propaganda out of this thread !*





Black Blood said:


> This is the LINK:
> 
> http://4.******.com/_q7Rxg4wqDyc/S0Wv1io-GBI/AAAAAAAAAfI/vvWVSy0hGSs/s400/in_*srinagar_kashmir.jpg*



this pic is from mumbai.See and match the architecture,electricity pillar,car position in this pic.still you will say this pic is from kashmir???









this link is from your own website

Google Image Result for http://www.apakistannews.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/26-11-case-to-be-shifted.jpg


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## Jade

amoverlord said:


> actually...my friend this pictures r the reality of kashmir...may be the pakistani members r using it to there favor but none the less....
> anyway i dont understand why indians n pakistanis r so fired up(to the levels of maniacs,sometimes) on the topic of kashmir(only)....when both have 100 more serious issues to bang there heads on...
> Q-can kasmir solved with force?
> A-absolutely not....
> Q-indias stand on kashmir,help solve it?
> A-absolutely not...
> Q-pakistans stand on kashmir,help solve it?
> A-absolutely not...
> Q-terroristshang2: freedomfighters)will help solve it?
> A-absolutely not...
> 
> so as i see...its going nowhere......




Dear friend,

Kashmir has less to do with land or territory and more to do with the idea called India. We are a country where the religion, ethnicity, caste, region etc&#8230; are secondary, but Indianness is primary. We cannot afford to have our idea of India attacked under any circumstances by anybody. No cost is greater than the India itself. Do you think if Kashmir is solved tomorrow, the terrorists&#8217; influx into India is going to come down? No. It is not the Kashmir they are looking at but to destroy the idea called India. We should not let that happen under any circumstances

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## ice_man

BJlaowai said:


> Pehle aap janaab..
> Pakistan can start the ball rolling by first vacating Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (so called Azad Kashmir) and give them Kashmiris their independance.



pehlay app kioun nahi nawaab sahab! app baray hain future so called self proclaimed "super power hain"? so why don't you start rolling the ball and gudie the world the rising shining india style!


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## freddiemaize

Pakistan itself is suffering from several problems. Feel free to say NO to me *provided you have solid source to defend*.

Its economy has to shape up well. When most of the Asian countires are raising why not Pakistan. It has to join the league of the Raising Asians. 

Instead they spend so much men and material fighting for other's independence. Its sounds fishy. 

*When your own children are fighting for survival why do you need to worry about the next man's children.*


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## ice_man

19 July 1953 is a remarkable day of those fateful years when against all political odds citizens of Srinagar defied prohibitory orders and thousands gathered in Nawakadal Srinagar to protest against the accession with India.


On 29 December 1963 the occupied state rose in revolt against India and Indian stooges, when the sacred hair was stolen mysteriously from Hazratbal Shrine Mosque. The demand for the sacred hair instantly changed into a full-scale mass freedom movement in the length and breadth of Kashmir. Pandit Nehru was forced to release many political workers including Sheikh Abdullah from prisons.

On February 28, 1975 the whole of Jammu and Kashmir went on a historical strike over a call given by the then Prime Minister of Pakistan Late Zulfiqar Ali Bhuthoo to protest against the Delhi agreement of Sheikh Abdullah and Indra Gandhi, which is an echoing day in the history of Kashmir.


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## equiliz3r

No Kashmiri migrant has returned to Valley: Minister





Jammu: Over 350,000 Kashmiri Pandits had fled the Valley two decades ago when Islamic militancy erupted and not a single migrant has returned in all these years, Revenue Minister Raman Bhalla said. 

"So far, no migrant has returned to the Valley," Bhalla said in a written reply in the Assembly Friday to a question by Hakim Mohammad Yaseen, an independent legislator. 

The thousands of Hindus who fled the Valley 20 years ago have settled down in migrant camps in Jammu region and other parts of the country. 

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh had in April 2008 announced a relief, return and rehabilitation package for the migrants and the state has reserved 3,000 posts for Kashmiri Pandit youth in various departments in the Valley, but so far no one had been recruited. 

"The government has referred the posts to the recruitment board," the minister said in his reply.


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## HariSeldon

ice_man said:


> 19 July 1953 is a remarkable day of those fateful years when against all political odds citizens of Srinagar defied prohibitory orders and thousands gathered in Nawakadal Srinagar to protest against the accession with India.
> 
> *
> On 29 December 1963 the occupied state rose in revolt against India and Indian stooges, when the sacred hair was stolen mysteriously from Hazratbal Shrine Mosque. The demand for the sacred hair instantly changed into a full-scale mass freedom movement in the length and breadth of Kashmir. Pandit Nehru was forced to release many political workers including Sheikh Abdullah from prisons.
> *
> On February 28, 1975 the whole of Jammu and Kashmir went on a historical strike over a call given by the then Prime Minister of Pakistan Late Zulfiqar Ali Bhuthoo to protest against the Delhi agreement of Sheikh Abdullah and Indra Gandhi, which is an echoing day in the history of Kashmir.


And 2 years after that, same people capture the inflitrators and handed over to IA. You payed heavy price for misjudging the mood of ppl in Valley. You seems to have not learn from that mistake.


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## pkd

*Army major dies in blast, captain slips to death *



Srinagar: While an army captain died in accidental grenade blast in Ganderbal, a captain - dental officer - slipped to death in a bathroom at Leh in Ladakh division of the state, official sources said.

They said that Major Joginder Shekhawat of 24 Rashtriya Rifles was killed when a grenade, he was handling, explodes at Malesh Kangan in Ganderbal district in north Kashmir. 

A defense ministry based spokesman in Srinagar, Lt Col JS Brar told Press Bureau of India that army has ordered an enquiry into the incident.

Investigation has been launched and circumstances leading to the incident are being established, he added. 

This is the second accidental blast in last twenty four hours that claimed life of an army man. An army a personnel, Parveen Kumar of 62 Engineering Regiment was killed in an accidental grenade blast at Corps Battle School in Rajouri district of Jammu.

Meanwhile, in another incident, Brar said, a dental officer Captain Vivek Agnihotri died when he slipped and fell in his bathroom.

His head hit a blunt object, leading to his dead, he said.

Investigations are on in this incident as well to ascertain more details, he added. (PBI) 

Kashmir Watch :: In-depth coverage on Kashmir conflict


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## paritosh

may they rest in peace.


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## ice_man

HariSeldon said:


> And 2 years after that, same people capture the inflitrators and handed over to IA. You payed heavy price for misjudging the mood of ppl in Valley. You seems to have not learn from that mistake.



this is your defence??? to the whole issue of kashmir?? i thought firstly indians denied any PROBLEM at all in kashmir! as for people rounding up and handing over army paratroops to IA....well in operation market garden tens of thousands of allied troops were rounded up & made POWs now should we say that the netherland people supported the NAZIs???

please put something valid down firstly you denied anything wrong in kashmir! when proven wrong you said ok give example of things before 80s now even when that is rebuffed you come up with a post that is not even worth replying too!


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## Jackdaws

ice_man said:


> yes and we specifically picked out 1/10 to go into kashmir so they can rape & plunder but wait we told them don't do any killing or raping until you are a few kilometers from srinagar!
> 
> look you & i both know culture is disintegrating now! in 1947 people upheld morales & cultures & traditions! so keep the BS to yourself about raping men,goats & when nothing was found women!



If anything people back then proved themselves barbarians - they killed and maimed with reckless abandon. And the tribesmen behavior is a historical fact even mentioned in neutral sources and in Pakistani ones too.


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## Jackdaws

ice_man said:


> the only solution to kashmir is a free independent kashmir! with a international status of neutrality just like switzerland! with UN peace force guarding it from both pakistan & india!!! the right to rule themselves! kashmir is neither india's nor pakistan's!!!! kashmir is for kashmiris!



It is part of India although there can be talks on handing over P-o-K to India.

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## EjazR

*The Hindu : Opinion / Lead : A homecoming for yesterday's jihadists?*







*Mohammad Aslam, a former militant, now leads a frontal assault against his former colleagues by training locals to take on militants in Reasi district, J&K. *

_Hundreds of Hizb-ul-Mujahideen cadre in Pakistan are seeking a new life in their old homes in Jammu and Kashmir._

For 14 days and nights in September 1994, Abdul Rasheed marched across the 5,000-metre passes of the inner Himalayas to train for war at the Hizb-ul-Mujahideen camp in Pakistan.

The journey took Rasheed, part of a group of 116 volunteers from across Kashmir, across the Kaobal pass near Dras, on to the Hizbs forward base at Gilgit, by jeep over the dirt road to Skardu and then by bus to Muzaffarabad. Eight men returned home; 12 died of cold and high-altitude sickness, and were buried where they fell.

Early this summer, Rasheed walked into a police station in Srinagar to report his return: a journey that began with a Pakistan International Airlines flight from Karachi to Kathmandu, by bus to Gorakhpur, train to Gurdaspur and, finally, two more bus rides home. His Pakistani wife, Nyla Zamaan Abbasi and their children, four-year-old Haroun Rashid and two-year-old Amna Rashid, were with him.

More than one hundred former Hizb operatives and their families have returned home from Pakistan since 2005; nine this summer alone. Many have returned knowing full well they could face time in prison  or worse. Kulgam resident Mohammad Jalil Amin, for example, served 10 months in jail when he was arrested on returning home through Kathmandu in June 2006. Naseer Ahmad Pathan, who crossed the minefields along the Line of Control with his Pakistani wife Naseema Akhtar and four children in 2005, is still uncertain if his family will be allowed to stay on in India. Rasheed faces his prosecution; his wife, possible deportation. In June 2007, Hizb operatives Irfan Ahmad Ganai, Fayyaz Ahmad Bhat, and Javed Ahmad Khan were shot dead trying to return through the LoC.

For much of this summer, New Delhi has been working quietly to begin a dialogue with the secessionist All Parties Hurriyat Conference  a dialogue that fell apart during Prime Minister Manmohan Singhs first term in office. Even as the effort to resume the dialogue proceeds ahead, Jammu and Kashmirs major political parties have been seeking to draw the Hizb into negotiations. Like the Peoples Democratic Party, which engaged Hizb elements in talks through its three-year term in office, senior National Conference figures have sent out feelers to senior figures in the Islamist terror group.

Little remains of the Hizb ul-Mujahideens once-feared forces which, in the early 1990s, were believed to have numbered several thousands. The police say the code-name Ghazi Misbahuddin, traditionally assigned to the Hizbs overall commander for military operations in Jammu and Kashmir, is now used by the Gandoh-based commander Ghulam Abbas. But beyond funnelling funds, Indias intelligence services and the police believe, Abbas has little work: there is no longer an army to command.

The Hizb has fractured into small and largely-ineffective cells. Mohammad Shafi, who uses the code-names Dawood and Doctor, presides over the small group of operatives still active in northern Kashmir. Born in the village of Papchan near Bandipora, Shafi is among the Hizbs seniormost field operatives. He joined the organisation in 1992, soon after finishing school. But there have been signs in recent years that Shafis commitment to the jihad is waning. Police sources say he initiated communication with the authorities in 2007-2008, to explore an exit route.

Both Qayoom Najar and Majid Bisati, Shafis key lieutenants, are believed to have sought to survive by integrating their operations with those of the Lashkar-e-Taiba. However, the effort fell through because the Lashkar itself had haemorrhaged commanders in counter-terrorism operations targeting the group.

In the central Kashmir area, the Hizb has only one significantly active unit. Mushataq Ahmad, a one-time resident of Vorpach village near Ganderbal, leads a group of just three ethnic-Kashmiris and two Pakistani nationals. Nor are things much better for the Hizb in southern Kashmir. The organisations top bomb-making expert Pervez Ahmad Dar  known by the code-name Pervez Musharraf executed a number of attacks on military convoys while serving as the Awantipora area commander. He has, however, been unable to stage a major operation in over a year. Shabbir Ahmad, named in police records as the perpetrator of the killings of at least three civilians before the recent Lok Sabha elections in Jammu and Kashmir, has done nothing since.

Mudassir Ahmad Shah, third major Hizb operative still active in the Awantipora area, too has had little success. Born at Gadikhal village near Awantipora, Shah came from a family with an Islamist tradition; his father, Abdul Ahad Shah was a Jamaat-e-Islami activist of long standing. Having joined the organisation while studying to become a dentist, police sources say, Shah trained as an improvised explosive device fabricator  an enterprise which cost him an eye. He is alleged to have been responsible for a string of bombings in Srinagar and Banihal in 2006-2007. Shah, police say, left for Pakistan in 2007 before returning home in May 2008, but has done little since. Like his north Kashmir counterparts, his unit has been attempting to tap the operational resources of the Lashkar, but to no avail.

Perhaps the only significant-sized Hizb unit in southern Kashmir is the Kellar-based group of Fayyaz Pir, which is thought to have recruited at least 12 Shopian residents in recent weeks. Sangarwani-born Pir is thought to have joined the Hizb seven years ago, and stuck with the organisation even as its south Kashmir leadership was annihilated in a successful police-led campaign that began in 2006. Pirs new recruits, though, have received only rudimentary training in the Pir Panjal mountains, rather than formal military instruction at the Hizb camps in Pakistan. Like other groups, Pirs cell has been unable to stage a single significant attack.

Early in February, at a rally held by jihadist groups in Muzaffarabad, Hizb chief Mohammad Yusuf Shah  widely known by the pseudonym Syed Salahuddin  appeared to rule out an end to war.

Jihad will continue, the Urdu-language newspaper Roznamcha Jasarat reported him as saying, until the independence of Kashmir [from India]. He lashed out at the Pakistan government for proscribing the Lashkar-e-Taiba and the Jaish-e-Mohammad  both of which were represented at the rally. If there is a setback to the war [in Jammu and Kashmir] due to the cowardice of the [Pakistan] government, Shah said, then this war will need to be fought in Islamabad and Lahore.

Language like this, though, is at some distance from reality as is being experienced by the Hizbs several hundred-strong reserve in Muzaffarabad. Few have demonstrated any willingness to return home to swell the ranks of their depleted units within Jammu and Kashmir  a reluctance also shared by Shahs key commanders.

Rashids story is instructive. Put to work as an apprentice shawl weaver after he dropped out of school in the eighth grade, Rashid found in the Hizbs jihad a romance and agency missing in his life. In 1998, suffering poor conditions at the Hizbs Jangal Mangal camp in Muzaffarabad and his religious nationalism stilled by years of watching comrades sent to death in an apparently-unwinnable campaign against Indian forces, he left the organisation. Living off a subsidy made available by the Pakistani authorities, he apprenticed with Muzaffarabad tailor Shakeel Ahmad Abbasi. Later, he married Abbasis sister. Having watched others make their way home to India, Rashids thoughts turned to returning to his land-owning family. Early this summer, Rashid paid a local travel agent Pakistani Rs. 4 lakh to arrange for passports, visas and tickets to Nepal.

Last year, responding to pressure from his war-weary rank and file, Shah ordered a ceasefire in October, the month of Ramzan. Later, he called for a solution in Jammu and Kashmir modelled on Northern Ireland  a formulation that suggested that the organisation would be willing to disarm. Earlier, in August 2006, he offered to initiate a dialogue with New Delhi and a conditional ceasefire.

In recent weeks, though, Shahs language has been less conciliatory. Perhaps fearful that the APHCs political secessionists would exclude his organisation in a future dialogue, he lashed out at separatist leaders who were begging for talks with India. He also argued that Pakistans disinterest to highlight [the] Kashmir [issue] has disappointed and angered Kashmiris.

Shahs family embodies traditional middle-class aspirations  not radical Islamism. His oldest son, Shahid Yusuf, works as teacher, and Javed Yusuf is an agricultural technologist. Shakeel Yusuf works as medical assistant in a government-run hospital. Wahid Yusuf, 24, graduated from the Government Medical College in Srinagar, where the familys contacts helped him obtain a seat under a quota controlled by the Jammu and Kashmir Governor. Momin Yusuf, the youngest of Shahs sons, is an engineer.

Even if Shah isnt willing to give his defeated army a chance to build the kind of lives he gave his sons, the Jammu and Kashmir government needs to find ways to give people like Rasheed a future.

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## EjazR

*How we turned a Cold War into a hot potato by Jawed Naqvi | PKColumns | Paksitani Columns, Urdu Columns, Pakistani editorials*

*Far too many innocent men, women and children have died and many more uprooted from their homes in the Kashmir tragedy since its emergence as a violent and volatile issue in 1947. Its essential history, however, is at variance with most contemporary narratives of India-Pakistan rivalry, brutal military occupation, rabid religious zealotry and an indigenous struggle to keep a moderate inclusive Islam as its nodal characteristic.*

I have often wondered who among the Pakistani stakeholders in Kashmir is today more keen for an early solution to the dispute  is it the army, which has its hands full with a raging insurgency in the northwest but may see advantages in getting even with India by establishing the centrality of the prickly discussion as a requirement to meet its vital international obligations of containing anti-west Muslim extremists elsewhere? Assuming and not conceding that Pakistan has its way in Kashmir, with or without overt international help, is it ready for the consequences of adding one more ethnic headache to its existing four or five? And are the Kashmiris going to be happy with an overstretched nation state which is already in a turbulent flux?

Or is it a strategic quest for the narrow-minded religious militant groups who see in the eclectic and primarily Sufi Kashmir a staging post for their wider jihad against India and against everybody who fits into their crosshairs, including, ironically enough, the current pro-west state of Pakistan. The world on its part doesnt seem to be excited about another Islamic state much less a religious nursery in this part of the world, and India will not allow what it considers to be its territories to be pared down to make itself more vulnerable than it is to Pakistan, China and assorted domestic and foreign insurgents. These are the elements of the regular narrative within which current discussions on Kashmir are staged and its many realistic and far-fetched solutions are posited by nation-states and well-heeled NGOs. Most of the contemporary elements in the Kashmir saga are completely new though and unrelated to the original colonial perfidy that drove its politics before the Cold War harnessed the dispute to American strategies in the region.

*Rakesh Ankit, who studied history at Delhi and Oxford, has culled out enough recently declassified British government papers to reassemble a useful picture of Kashmirs emergence as a key plank in the geographical architecture conceived and planned by colonialism and handed over to the Cold War.* 1948: The crucial year in the history of Jammu and Kashmir, published in the current issue of Economic and Political Weekly, could prove to be a seminal work as it seeks to guide us to the roots of the problem and its many lingering shadows from the past that may yet decide its future.

Initially, according to Ankit, the British didnt want the Kashmir conflict at all for two reasons. First, their military minds held that they needed both India and Pakistan to secure the peace, welfare and securityfrom the Mediterranean to the China Sea and to confront the intrigue from Sinkiang and intervention from north with implications far beyond Kashmir. They now had to choose one of the two.

Second, they had been worried about the weakening strategic hold in Palestine and Greece, unhappy with the increasingly autonomous and assertive American involvement there without due regard to British interests, anxious about Egypt and Iraq and arguing for a pan-Islamic federation/Arab leagueto thwart Russia. Against this backdrop, the Kashmir conflict made them concerned about losing control of Pakistan as well.

*Losing Pakistan was not an option for London, says Ankit. The British chief of staff (COS) had underlined this five times between May 1945  when Pakistan was but an idea of a few  and July 1947, when it was about to be a reality for all. They had first reported to Winston Churchill that Britain must retain its military connection with India in view of the Soviet menace for India was a valuable base for force deployment, a transit point for air and sea communications, a large reserve of manpower. Moreover, it had air bases in the north-west (now in Pakistan) from which Britain could threaten Soviet military installations. They repeated to Clement Attlee the importance of these north-west airfields.*

In July 1946, they identified the crucial arc from Turkey to Pakistan, in view of essential oil supplies, defence and communications requirements, with the Russian threat. In November 1946, they summed up that Western India (post-1947 Pakistan)  with Karachi and Peshawar  was strategically and ideologically crucial for British Commonwealth interests. Five weeks before Partition, the COS concluded:


> The area of Pakistan is strategically the most important in the continent of India and the majority of our strategic requirements could be met by an agreement with Pakistan alone. We do not therefore consider that failure to obtain the [defence] agreement with India would cause us to modify any of our requirements. Can we see shades of the current expediencies in that comment?



The Foreign Office (FO) viewed the Kashmir conflict as a religious war which might be used by Russia as a pretext for intervening. It felt that the Russians tend to favour India as against Pakistan. Moreover, any initiatives had to keep in mind the present difficult position over Palestine which made any talks about HMG being unfair to Pakistan (over Kashmir) undesirable. It reminded the Muslim countries via its embassies: HMG might easily have handed over the whole of India to the Hindu majority. But they loyally protected the Muslim minority, even to the point of facilitating the creation of a separate independent Muslim state by going out of their way. This is what the Muslims themselves demanded. We have recognised Pakistan as a Dominion and have supported its admission to UNO. We would always come to Pakistans help.

As India and Pakistan battled for their claim on Kashmir, the British had their own axe to grind. When India got the Instrument of Accession, disputed by Pakistan as a confirmed fact, and Indian troops landed in Srinagar, Lawrence Graffety-Smith, the UK High Commissioner in Pakistan (1947-51), spoke for many when he sent this report to London two days after Kashmirs accession to India:


> Indian governments acceptance of accession of Kashmir [was] the heaviest blow yet sustained by Pakistan in her struggle for existence. Strategically, Pakistans frontiers have been greatly extended as a hostile India gains access to NWFP. This will lead to a redefinition of the Afghan policy for worse. Second, Russian interests will be aroused in Gilgit and NWFP which creates a new international situation which HMG and the US government cannot overlook. Third, there is a serious threat to Pakistans irrigation systems; hydroelectric projects from the accession [all five rivers draining the Pakistani Punjab flow from India, three through Kashmir] and finally, two-three million Kashmiri Muslims will worsen the already massive refugee problem with five-and-a-half million Muslims having been driven out of East Punjab.



But the British were even-handed in their dealings with the new Dominions were they not? Heres how they did that. Philip Noel-Baker headed the Commonwealth relations Office (1947-50). He worried that


> incursions now taking place in Kashmir constitute an armed attack upon Indian territory in view of their scale and of the fact that Kashmir has acceded to the Indian Union. This is so irrespective of whether forces in question are organised or disorganised or whether they are controlled by, or enjoy the convenience of, Government of Pakistan. India is therefore entitled to take measures which she may deem necessary for self-defence pending definitive action by Security Council to restore peace  prima facie  repelling invaders but possibly pursuit of invaders into Pakistan territory. Security Council could not decide out of hand that India was not justified in so doing in the case envisaged.


*
The newly released British papers certainly make the current diplomatic and military manoeuvres on Kashmir and other colonial era disputes stalking the region look tame by comparison.* There is much to laud in Ankits effort in putting together an argument. And there is much to ponder in the new and dangerous direction all the unresolved issues are taking us. *Its a shame that India and Pakistan, in the tradition of good old client states, continue to engage in a mindset that helps their foreign minders sow more discord between them. The Kashmiri people are the worst sufferers in this disastrous charade in which national servility on both sides passes for national interests.*

jawednaqvi@gmail.com


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## EjazR

The paper by Ankit. An interesting read and a good collection of declassified British Documents and the British 'thinking' at that time.
*
Great Britain, Cold War and Kashmir 1947&#8211;1949*


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## jarnee

hmm.. interesting , its seems partition of India was inevitable, even if all would have agreed. meaning Jinnah and Nehru.


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## i am your fear

well cant say about the news


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## i am your fear

well cant say about the news


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## fatman17

ejazR already posted in the pakistan's war thread....pls check before posting 'blindly'


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## Trichy

now it nice to hear that terrorism is just good when at first then its hurts you lot


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## jha

KHOOB BHALO NEWS DADA..


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## rubyjackass

Inclusion is the way forward, for healing past wounds and for future prosperity. Everything should be done before Pakistan again feels tempted to intervene.


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## Awesome

Some obvious cases of family men quitting war, is not an indication of any sort of relentment in the desire for independence. Kashmiris want Kashmir minus India.

So much so that a few years back Hizb-ul-Mujahideen even had Hindus in its ranks, upto commander levels!

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## EjazR

^^^ That may be true, but before 1989 there was hardly any calls for armed struggle for independence either. One of the reasons why the 47-48 and the 65 wars Kashmir was still with India and the locals fought against invaders. Also why the urge to "fight" against the same militants who "profess" to fight for Kashmir. The reason is that the vast majority are now foreigners not locals. And they are getting whatever help they can to fight them.

The important thing is to provide a safe secure environment for people to freely discuss their views without so called Jihadi groups intimidating them.


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## EjazR

^^^
Apologies I searched only in the Kashmir sub forum and didn't find it. At least, I have contributed the original research paper written by Ankit i.e. the source of Naqvi's article so hope that's helpful


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## Trichy

Asim Aquil said:


> Some obvious cases of family men quitting war, is not an indication of any sort of relentment in the desire for independence. Kashmiris want Kashmir minus India.
> 
> So much so that a few years back Hizb-ul-Mujahideen even had Hindus in its ranks, upto commander levels!



Kashmir with India, you can't change the original facts...

 i love to hear it...this dispute between as will never change, if it change politicians of both country have no work loot public money using defense sector


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## Adwitiya

Asim Aquil said:


> Some obvious cases of family men quitting war, is not an indication of any sort of relentment in the desire for independence. Kashmiris want Kashmir minus India.
> 
> So much so that a few years back Hizb-ul-Mujahideen even had Hindus in its ranks, upto commander levels!



Actually many have started realizing that thats not gonna happen by waging a war against India. Few nut cases with AKs trained by some ulta war mongering idiots who are good for nothing (I am sure this has nothing to do with pakistan) cannot defeat India. 

So no point of dieing in vain for someone else fantasy which does not seem to be fulfilled anytime soon is of no use. 

Anyways we have also come up with the policy either come back or get crushed. 

We also need to start with a media campaign regarding the conditions in Pakistan for fellow muslim in Kashmir to make them realize the ground reality.


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## rubyjackass

Asim Aquil said:


> Some obvious cases of family men quitting war, is not an indication of any sort of relentment in the desire for independence. Kashmiris want Kashmir minus India.
> 
> So much so that a few years back Hizb-ul-Mujahideen even had Hindus in its ranks, upto commander levels!



The self rule that J&K enjoys today is far more than any 'autonomous' region in the world has. There were people who got hurt by the way Central government treated Kashmiri leadership in the 80's. The resentment is justified except for its means. Any self respecting person would do what they did. 


The days when the insurgency had native command structure with a secular leadership is long gone as cross border groups started streaming in. What is remains is a fractured society where people's allegiance is stereotyped based on their birth.

As tempers cool down people will realize that they were living peacefully with their pride until 75 and that they can do the same now. That there are not far from Indian culture. There are 600 militants left now, all of them jihadis. Rehabilitate one every week, that's enough to get back to normalcy and start reconstruction of the society and economy.

All that people need is convincing assurance and education.



Ruby.


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## ice_man

Jackdaws said:


> It is part of India although there can be talks on handing over P-o-K to India.



 

P-O-K bharat rakshak boy!!!


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## ice_man

yes kashmirs hate the idea of independence!! check out the following videos to make up your mind! 






or this 












or this is the biggest lie 






all lies!!!! (i hope you all see the sarcasim


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## ice_man

Kashmir freedom movement is all a lie!! 





















LIE???


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## abdul1

It's a pipe dream


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## Adwitiya

Some people are basing there fantasy on you tube videos. there are many videos which say india is already doomed. Pakistan is doomed blah. You tube is good time paas but nothing there for serious concerns.

Anyways it has prooved good for us in 65 and in all other wars whenever pakistan has belived that kashmiris are with them. But oops in the end they ended up supporting someone else. I wish that our enemy remains disillusioned.


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## Adwitiya

ice_man said:


> yes kashmirs hate the idea of independence!! check out the following videos to make up your mind!
> 
> YouTube - Massive Kashmiri croud shouting long live Pakistan in indian occupied Kashmir
> 
> or this
> 
> YouTube - Kashmiris carrying Pakistani flags telling India to leave Kashmir
> 
> 
> YouTube - DIVIDE INDIA (100 PERCENT TRUE SHOWING WITH WESTERN EYES).SHOULDONE DAY KASHMIR AND KHALISTAN WILL GET FREEDOM . HELP FOR KASHMIR AND KHALISTAN
> 
> or this is the biggest lie
> 
> YouTube - Low turnout in Indian Kashmir's elections - 7 May 09
> 
> all lies!!!! (i hope you all see the sarcasim



Ok so you gave 4 videos from you tube what if i give you 8 videos from same you tube where kashmiris say they are indians are you ready to give up your occupied kashmir


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## Jackdaws

ice_man said:


> P-O-K bharat rakshak boy!!!



 It is the official name in India.


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## Awesome

This before 1989 there was nothing and now it started is also wrong. If at any point there was no problem India would've conducted the UN administered plebiscite. India cowers from the word "plebiscite" just because there is no truth to these reports that India routinely circulates that all is well in Kashmir. Each time independent people have reported the mood of the people they have always said that people want independence.


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## ice_man

Adwitiya said:


> Ok so you gave 4 videos from you tube what if i give you 8 videos from same you tube where kashmiris say they are indians are you ready to give up your occupied kashmir



firstly third link is a neutral reporting source which said some good things about your country however they mentioned that the voter turn out was LOW! secondly if you are so confident about kashmiris loving india! then hold a plebiscite! but you won't honour your own (nehru's word) because you are sure the mood of the people is not how it was in junagadh! 


i guess mods all kashmir threads should be linked into one because they all keep going around in circles!


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## ice_man

Jackdaws said:


> It is the official name in India.



well the WORLD knows it as AZAAD KASHMIR! so your BR name can stay with you! it has its on constitution! It has its own elected president, prime minister, legislature, high court, and official flag

good for you indians to keep thinking otherwise


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## prithwidw

ice_man said:


> *well the WORLD knows it as AZAAD KASHMIR!* so your BR name can stay with you! it has its on constitution! It has its own elected president, prime minister, legislature, high court, and official flag
> 
> good for you indians to keep thinking otherwise



It's actually known as *Pakistan Controlled Kashmir* (*OR Pakistan Administered Kashmir*) worldwide. In India, it is referred to as *P-O-K* as in Pakistan (have) Occupied (our) Kashmir

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## Awesome

This thread is too stupid to be entertained. Closed.


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## prithwidw

Asim Aquil said:


> This thread is too stupid to be entertained. Closed.



It's still open on my workstation


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## ice_man

mine too Asim but please close it because this thread is pointless!! when indians knowing that Azaad kashmir has its own legislature & and all still call it occupied then they are just disillusioned!


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## prithwidw

ice_man said:


> mine too Asim but please close it because this thread is pointless!! when indians knowing that Azaad kashmir has its own legislature & and all still call it occupied then they are just disillusioned!



I guess this is how foreign policy works. Nothing delusional about it.

China claims Arunachal Pradesh to be their land.
India claims P-O-K to be our land.
Pakistans claims freedom for Kashmir, but still occupies a third of it.

All countries in Asia are involved in something stupid. See Europe, they are developed and don't even claim any foreign land.


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## Bingo!

asq said:


> No Karan. it was east pakistan and had been east Pakistan from 1947 to 1970 and india interfered in internal matters of Pakistan.



Maybe its time to ask the people of east pakistan whether they want to join Pakistan


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## Jackdaws

Oh well. The world always take a neutral view and refers to the region as Indian-administered Kashmir and Pakistan administered Kashmir. Anyway - the point was why did Pakistan invade an independent nation? Don't Pakistanis think it was a mistake - if they hadn't jumped the gun all of Kashmir would have become part of Pakistan.


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## Jade

It is easy for us to discuss on a forum about implementing UN resolution, but it is a totally different proposition in reality. Here are my reasons why UN resolution is either not implementable or not relevant 

First, before any UN resolution to happen, all the parts of Kashmir under the control of India (43&#37, Pakistan (37%), and China (20%) have to be brought together. But the official positions of all the governments make it impossible to bring all the parts together: India's official position is that Kashmir is an integral part of India. Pakistan's official position is that Kashmir is a disputed territory and China's official position is that Aksai Chin is a part of Tibet; Moreover, Pakistan has unilaterally ceded a part of Kashmir to China ignoring the &#8216;disputed&#8217; nature of territory and in the process making it more complicated 

Second, the resolution was passed by UN Security Council under chapter VI of UN charter. Any resolution passed under chapter VI are considered non binding and have no mandatory enforceability.

Third, the execution of the UN resolution might create more serious difficulties than were foreseen at the time the parties agreed to. National identities are much stronger in both India and Pakistan than compared to National identities in 1947. Moreover, India and Pakistan have invested lot of blood and money in the last 60 years. The question of Kashmir has become the question of national identities and prestige.

Fourth, Kashmir is not a homogeneous region; it has Kashmir, Jammu, Ladakh, Aksai Chin and PAK. The question is how UN resolution is going to take care of aspirations of each of the regions; moreover there is another question of the aspiration of Kashmiri Pundits. 

Fifth, India is a secular country and hugely diverse. Accepting UN resolutions on Kashmir (Muslim-majority state) mean reject the very foundation of India that is secularity. Moreover this could be a Pandora Box (other demands for states on ethnicity, religion and caste could arise) 

Lastly, India is too big a country to be forced. 

Criticism is welcome, but has to be logical

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## prithwidw

My friend. you have just opened a pandora's box.


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## Jackdaws

I can so easily see where this is gonna head. 

Pakistani : Nehru promised plebiscite 

Indian: Pakistan was required to withdraw forces according to UN Resolution 47 taken by the UN while India was allowed to maintain a force but Pakistan did not withdraw. 

Pakistani: It is Muslim majority state - according to partition - it should have gone to Pakistan.

Indian: The Maharaja acceded to India. Besides India is secular

Pakistani: But Junagadh acceded to Pakistan as did Hyderabad - why did you take over those? You are secular only on paper - minorities suffer there. 

Indian: They are within India - geographically contiguous. Besides if you are so concerned about Kashmir why did you give part of it to China? 

Pakistani: That was a decision between two friendly nations. 

Indian: Let's talk about how "Azad" is "Azad Kashmir"

Pakistani: Nothing compared to atrocities by Indian forces.

Some you tube videos posted, some insults exchanged - a couple jokes cracked. 

Thread closed.

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## arslan_treen

no i think what he said is in back of the mind of every body in subcontinent ,even though many in both side have clouded there vision with false national and religion pride , 
but he forgot to mention one part that is , for a second lets forget that Kashmir is and was at time of partation Muslim majority state and according to partition rules it should have been with Pakistan for which the Argument is given by the India that it was handed over by the Raja of that time , but if we use that rule then Indian Hydrabad should have been given to Pakistan or as a individual state as Nawab of Dakan decided to stay free and later to join Pakistan , but it was a non Muslim majority area so it was forced to stay with India against the wills of Nawab (Read operation Polo for details), well that is a little bitter historical fact . Now coming back to this age Kashmir has become a lot more for Pakistan then it ever was as the term Kashmir being Pakistan's ''shahrag'' is not just a slogan but a nearly all major river start in Kashmir and in recent years we have seen how important it is for Pakistan to obtain it free water Flow .


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## arslan_treen

Jackdaws said:


> I can so easily see where this is gonna head.
> 
> Pakistani : Nehru promised plebiscite
> 
> Indian: Pakistan was required to withdraw forces according to UN Resolution 47 taken by the UN while India was allowed to maintain a force but Pakistan did not withdraw.
> 
> Pakistani: It is Muslim majority state - according to partition - it should have gone to Pakistan.
> 
> Indian: The Maharaja acceded to India. Besides India is secular
> 
> Pakistani: But Junagadh acceded to Pakistan as did Hyderabad - why did you take over those? You are secular only on paper - minorities suffer there.
> 
> Indian: They are within India - geographically contiguous. Besides if you are so concerned about Kashmir why did you give part of it to China?
> 
> Pakistani: That was a decision between two friendly nations.
> 
> Indian: Let's talk about how "Azad" is "Azad Kashmir"
> 
> Pakistani: Nothing compared to atrocities by Indian forces.
> 
> Some you tube videos posted, some insults exchanged - a couple jokes cracked.
> 
> Thread closed.



well sir i think you have said well .


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## pak-yes

Basic spirit of Partition was

Hindu goes to India
Muslim goes to Pakistan

everyone else has his own choice where to go.

Indians started all the mess by violating the very essence of Partition.


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## prithwidw

pak-yes said:


> Basic spirit of Partition was
> 
> Hindu goes to India
> Muslim goes to Pakistan
> 
> everyone else has his own choice where to go.
> 
> Indians started all the mess by violating the very essence of Partition.



*Indians started all the mess by violating the very essence of Partition. How?*


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## brahmastra

pak-yes said:


> Basic spirit of Partition was
> 
> Hindu goes to India
> Muslim goes to Pakistan
> 
> everyone else has his own choice where to go.
> 
> Indians started all the mess by violating the very essence of Partition.



how?
by letting all muslims who loved India to live in India.

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## prithwidw

brahmastra said:


> how?
> by letting all muslims who loved India to live in India.



I was expecting this answer from someone across the border. You spoiled the party Brahmastra. You are such a bad boy.


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## Adwitiya

pak-yes said:


> Basic spirit of Partition was
> 
> Hindu goes to India
> Muslim goes to Pakistan
> 
> everyone else has his own choice where to go.
> 
> Indians started all the mess by violating the very essence of Partition.



nopes you are wrong

Muslims who want to go can go to pakistan but rather half of them stayed back.
And for rest everyone else not just hindus it was India. India neither was for hindus neither it is for hindus. it is for everyone including muslims. we never asked for a state which is for hindus.


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## iforgotmypassword

pak-yes said:


> Indians started all the mess by violating the very essence of Partition.



Indians were trying to avoid the mess by avoiding partition. But this is before 47.


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## scrumpy

pak-yes said:


> Basic spirit of Partition was
> 
> Hindu goes to India
> Muslim goes to Pakistan
> 
> everyone else has his own choice where to go.
> 
> Indians started all the mess by violating the very essence of Partition.



Nope. I think it was only Pakistan which wanted a Muslim homeland. India has always been and always will be secular. 

Although, I am not sure how you would then categorise the Hindus in Pakistan.


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## SSGPA1

*After meeting Chinese official, Mirwaiz attends Pakistan Day *

2010-03-23 23:10:00 


After meeting with foreign leaders, including a senior Chinese official, during his trip abroad, moderate Kashmiri separatist leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq met Pakistani high commission officials here Tuesday. 

The Mirwaiz attended a dinner hosted by High Commissioner Shahid Malik at the Pakistan Day function in the high commission. His bitter critic and hawkish Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani too was present. 


The Mirwaiz, who heads the moderate faction of the separatist conglomerate Hurriyat Conference, said: 'The meeting was informal and there was no preset agenda. I apprised the high commissioner about the latest situation in Jammu and Kashmir.' 


The Mirwaiz returned to Delhi Monday from Geneva where he had gone to attend the 13th session of the UN Human Rights Council. 


In Geneva, the Kashmiri cleric met China's Director Foreign Affairs Ying Gang and discussed a 'possible Chinese role' in resolving the Kashmir issue between India and Pakistan. 


Gang expressed China's support 'for the settlement of Kashmir as per the wishes and aspirations of people of the state', he said. 


He said China supported resumption of composite dialogue between India and Pakistan. 'China wants the two countries to take steps towards the resolution of Kashmir,' he said. 


The Mirwaiz said he will be visiting China soon following an invitation from NGO Han Foundation. 


About the talks with New Delhi, the separatist leader said the government had not met the basic criteria to create an 'atmosphere necessary for a result oriented dialogue' over the Kashmir issue. 


The government, he said 'must withdraw security forces from civilian areas; repeal the Armed Forces Special Powers Act; release political prisoners'. 'Only will then the dialogue start,' he added. 

After meeting Chinese official, Mirwaiz attends Pakistan Day

***************************************

This is a great gestur by our Chinese friends.

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## Jackdaws

There is a big fuss about it in India. I don't see why. He is a free citizen - if he wants to meet Chinese and Pakistani officials to discuss Kashmir or meet Yoko Ono and Bono to hold hands and sing Humbaya on top of Mount Everest - that is his call.


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## WhiteKnight1

India should relinquish its control over Kashmir. No Kashmiri on the Indian side wants to be apart of India. And India cannot prove otherwise.


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## ice_man

if sheikh abdullah meets the chinese it is deemed correct to the indians.....but when a person who is not in power meets the chinese it becomes a doomsday scenario!! indians should stop crying wolf all the time!!!

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## ice_man

Jackdaws said:


> Oh well. The world always take a neutral view and refers to the region as Indian-administered Kashmir and Pakistan administered Kashmir. Anyway - the point was why did Pakistan invade an independent nation? Don't Pakistanis think it was a mistake - if they hadn't jumped the gun all of Kashmir would have become part of Pakistan.



nope! the world is not neutral by any means! when clearly AZAAD KASHMIR has its own government,legislature & even its own flag! 

as for "neutral" world they call it the indian sub-continent and the indian ocean completely disregarding the pakistanis,sri-lankans & bangladeshis! so please don't tell me the world is neutral 

as for pakistan jumping the gun well you said pakistan invaded an independant nation! what about india invading Junagadh, hyderabad or EAST PAKISTAN??

and we made tribals enter kashmir AFTER india invaded junagadh! and convinently it held a plebiscite within weeks! however, it still has to honour its word on kashmir! 

the problem is your history books teach you stuff which maes india look like the victim! which it by no means is!


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## HariSeldon

ice_man said:


> this is your defence??? to the whole issue of kashmir?? i thought firstly indians denied any PROBLEM at all in kashmir! as for people rounding up and handing over army paratroops to IA....*well in operation market garden tens of thousands of allied troops were rounded up & made POWs now should we say that the netherland people supported the NAZIs???*
> 
> please put something valid down firstly you denied anything wrong in kashmir! when proven wrong you said ok give example of things before 80s now even when that is rebuffed you come up with a post that is not even worth replying too!



Is this done by local populance? I am not aware just asking? If yes, then next q is why? If they did with their own accord, then Yes they were supporting Nazi. There can't be two ways about it.


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## ice_man

HariSeldon said:


> Is this done by local populance? I am not aware just asking? If yes, then next q is why? If they did with their own accord, then Yes they were supporting Nazi. There can't be two ways about it.



answer is YES they did! why? well maybe scared of nazi prosecution! and every community has some collaborators!

now don't you try to change & twist the topic here! we are discussing kashmir! and we have clearly given plenty of evidence that the kashmiris are NOT happy with the indians & want freedom from the indian government!


http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=50729

this link has conveniently ignored by you! 






only in JAMMU which is hindu dominated do the people even turn out to vote mostly(but then before you start crying & whinning to prove the jammu voter turn out why don't you try & prove that kashmiris overall love india & if they do then hell why doesn't india hold a plebcisite if its so sure of victory it held one in junagadh didn't it??)


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## Jackdaws

Scotland has all of this too - it is still a part of the United Kingdom and not an independent nation. And the world - whether you like it or not has always been neutral. 

As far as Junagadh is concerned - India never legally disputed Junagadh's accession to Pakistan - it sent its forces AFTER Nawaz Bhutto invited the Indian govt. to conduct a plebiscite.


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## pkd

Indian troops martyr 2 innocent Kashmiri youth in Kupwara

Srinagar, March 24 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, Indian troops, in their fresh act of state terrorism, martyred two innocent Kashmiri youth in Kupwara district, today.

Indian troops killed the youth in Keran area of the district during violent continued military operations.

Dead body of a 70-year-old man, Ghulam Qadir Malik was found under suspicious circumstances at Logowpora in Kulgam.

On the other hand, the occupation authorities have booked a youth, Ejaz Ahmad Shah under the draconian Public Safety Act (PSA) for participating in protest demonstrations against continued gross human rights violations by Indian troops and policemen in the occupied territory.

Ejaz Ahmad Shah of Safa Kadal, Srinagar, and a plumber by profession, was arrested by Indian police, last month, and was released after a fortnight. &#8220;On Friday, Ejaz was summoned to police post Seki Dafar where he was detained and next day shifted to Kot Bhalwal jail Jammu,&#8221; family members told media men. 

Indian troops martyr 2 innocent Kashmiri youth in Kupwara | Kashmir Media Service


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## EjazR

^^^This is an example of wrong information.

Here are local news portals reporting on the same story. Please note these are private owned news portals that have local newspaper offices and are quite critical of the government even.

*Kashmir Times*
*Welcome to Kashmir Times*



> Infiltration bid foiled, 2 militants killed,
> KT NEWS SERVICE
> SRINAGAR, Mar 24: Army today claimed to have foiled an infiltration bid, killed two militants in Keran Sector of Kupwara district, and also claimed to have arrested a militant commander.
> According to a senior army officer a group of eight militants last night tried to sneak into the Indian territory in Keran sector of Kupwara and they were challenged. &#8220;In the exchange of fire two militants were killed and six others managed their escape to Pakistan,&#8221; a senior army officer said.
> Defence spokesman in Srinagar in a statement said that at about 2 A.M. this morning, troops deployed on the Line of Control observed movement from across. As they group tried to cross the border, they were challenged and fired upon by the troopers. &#8220;Two militants were killed on the spot while the others were pushed back. Some of them were observed lion ping and could have been injured.&#8221; the statement said.
> It added that slain militants were likely to be foreigners and were wearing snow clothes besides carrying wire cutters and ice axes.
> He claimed the recovery of two AK 47 Rifles, 155 rounds of ammunition, four grenades, one Thuraya Radio Set, one ICOM Radio Set and a mobile phone besides a large quantity of war liked material.
> The defense spokesman has also claimed the arrest of Hizbul Mujahideen district commander. &#8220;Acting on a tip off troops of 13 Rashtriya Rifles and SOG arrested Ghulam Rasool Malik alias Aftab, district Commander of Hizbul Mujahideen of Pattan from Shahgund Hajin today,&#8221; the statement said. It added that an AK &#8211; 47 Rifles and two grenades besides war like material was recovered from him.



Some other local news papers reporting on the story. Interesting to note that it was the J&K Light Infantry division which consists of locals that was partly involved in the operation.

*2 militants killed in Keran sector | Greater Kashmir *
*Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - LoC hots up after army build up*


While there is no other report mentioning Ejaz Ahmed Shah, the report about the 70 year old man found under suspicious circumstances as declared by the J&K police spokesman is true 
*news.outlookindia.com | Body of Aged Man Found in Kashmir*

There are genuine cases where innocent people are killed and if that is the case, there will definitely be a huge protest and pressure on the J&K govt. to act as what happened in the recent past.


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## syedtalha

*This news is out of context and out of content.
The attack happened on the outskirts of sopore. It is easy to guess that the newly created anti-stone pelting battalion of J&K police was used in this sabotage operation. Policemen in civvies infiltrated the procession and started violence in the name of Geelani, who by the way condemned this. 
One message to indians: you can fool some of the people all of the time, all the people some of the time, but not all the people all the time. *


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## syedtalha

Do you know this is the same mufti who waits on the day before eid or ramadhan for PTV or Radio pakistan to make the announcement of crecent, then he declares his own sighting report. THis is a ridiculous way of keeping himself relevant in the masses, since people will anyway follow the pakistanis schedule, not the indian one. Nobody really cares about him much. 'Grand Mufti' of kashmir is a means of government interference in religion.


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## ice_man

seiko said:


> lolz what happening to all these *separatists and terrorists*??Earlier there was a news about TTP factions firing at each other and now this..really nice ..



they both are NOT the same thing


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## Abhiras

ice_man said:


> they both are NOT the same thing


i agree not all are same but most of them are are same


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## KeenGuy

Nobody in Kashmir likes India. Even on Indian side. They need to pull out.


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## Spitfighter

syedtalha said:


> This news is out of context and out of content.
> The attack happened on the outskirts of sopore.* It is easy to guess that the newly created anti-stone pelting battalion of J&K police was used in this sabotage operation.* Policemen in civvies infiltrated the procession and started violence in the name of Geelani, who by the way condemned this.
> One message to indians: you can fool some of the people all of the time, all the people some of the time, but not all the people all the time.



How exactly did you 'guess' that oh wise one? 

Please refrain from posting unsubstantiated BS.

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## EjazR

^^^ You are mixing up different issues. Sighting of the moon and confirming it from PTV because they are geographically close is not "anti-Indian"

As muslims we pray in the same direction, fast on the same month in Ramadan and go to the same place for Hajj.

However, even Geelani has asked people to refrain from stone pelting. So would you now say that Geelani has become an Indian puppet as well?

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## ice_man

look stone pelting right or wrong no worries on that the MAJOR issue here is kashmiri independence! and protest is the major issue! protesting against oppression no religion stops that!


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## Spring Onion

gubbi said:


> Ok, Ejaz, isnt stone-pelting considered a sacred ritual during Hajj, wherein you stone the devil?
> 
> Some people in Kashmir consider the Indian forces as "occupying force" and hence in their eyes it signifies the Devil and hence stone pelting. So why call that act un-Islamic? I may be wrong, lemme know if thats the case.
> 
> Unless it has to do with the recent death of an infant at the hands of such idiotic protesters during a 'bandh' incident. Either that, or the Grand Mufti knows that many of these 'protesters' are just trouble-makers and wants to help end the menace for a peaceful Kashmir.



*Pelting stones on Satan is all Islamic. * And thats what we do during Hajj when we pelt stones at the Satan 


And the Mufti should heed to Omar Abdullah what he said why Kashmiri youth resorted to stone pelting.


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## Spring Onion

*BTW The Mufti should also know that Drinking is Un-Islamic and also forbidden in Quran but the liquor is consumed the most in Held Kashmir.

He should better issue a fatwa against Alcohol *

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## third eye

Jana said:


> *BTW The Mufti should also know that Drinking is Un-Islamic and also forbidden in Quran but the liquor is consumed the most in Held Kashmir.
> 
> He should better issue a fatwa against Alcohol *



Most ?

In comparison to what ? Is liquor not consumed in Islamic countries ?


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## EjazR

Jana said:


> *BTW The Mufti should also know that Drinking is Un-Islamic and also forbidden in Quran but the liquor is consumed the most in Held Kashmir.
> 
> He should better issue a fatwa against Alcohol *



Jana ji almost every muslim knows that Alcohol is haram and this fact is well known. However, this was a little less known issue and many people were using the name of Islam to justify these actions.

By the way what are you comparing the consumption of Alcohol in J&K too? At an all India level, J&K has the least use of Alcohol, mostly in hotels and resorts.

According to the alcohol atlas prepared by the India Alcohol Policy Alliance (IAPA), the *prevalence of alcohol use among men is highest in Arunachal Pradesh and lowest in Jammu and Kashmir*. While 61.1 percent of men in Arunachal take alcohol, only 12.5 percent men in Jammu and Kashmir drink alcohol.

&#8216;Political parties should reveal alcohol policy&#8217;


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## Justin Joseph

Stoning to death is like a form of human sacrifice.


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## karan.1970

J&K: 12 militants killed in encounters

The Indian Army has killed twelve militants in three separate encounters on Saturday. 

Two militants have been killed in Kalakote and two in the Rajouri district.

Eight militants have been killed in fierce gun battles with police and security forces in Keran in the Kupwara district of Jammu and Kashmir, police officials said. 

This brings an end to a major operation that has been on for the last 3 days. 

Kashmir is on a terror alert, after the Jammu and Kashmir police were told that a series of attacks were planned for the summer.


=======================================

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## Justin Joseph

EjazR said:


> Jana ji almost every muslim knows that Alcohol is haram and this fact is well known. However, this was a little less known issue and many people were using the name of Islam to justify these actions.
> 
> By the way what are you comparing the consumption of Alcohol in J&K too? At an all India level, J&K has the least use of Alcohol, mostly in hotels and resorts.
> 
> According to the alcohol atlas prepared by the India Alcohol Policy Alliance (IAPA), the *prevalence of alcohol use among men is highest in Arunachal Pradesh and lowest in Jammu and Kashmir*. While 61.1 percent of men in Arunachal take alcohol, only 12.5 percent men in Jammu and Kashmir drink alcohol.
> 
> Political parties should reveal alcohol policy




sir,

i appreciate ur efforts, ur posts are quite informative, decent and intelligent.

As for Jana i have observed she just comment for sake of it, even don't read a post or have any credible info.

Thanks

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## Spring Onion

EjazR said:


> Jana ji almost every muslim knows that Alcohol is haram and this fact is well known. However, this was a little less known issue and many people were using the name of Islam to justify these actions.
> 
> By the way what are you comparing the consumption of Alcohol in J&K too? At an all India level, J&K has the least use of Alcohol, mostly in hotels and resorts.
> 
> According to the alcohol atlas prepared by the India Alcohol Policy Alliance (IAPA), the *prevalence of alcohol use among men is highest in Arunachal Pradesh and lowest in Jammu and Kashmir*. While 61.1 percent of men in Arunachal take alcohol, only 12.5 percent men in Jammu and Kashmir drink alcohol.
> 
> Political parties should reveal alcohol policy




*The small kids and young Kashmiri boys use the stones pelting as a tool to show/express their anger against brutalities of Indian Army in Occupied Kashmir and i dont see there is any other justification needed for this.*

As far my comment on alcohol there was a report last year which was published while quoting some debate in Occupied Kashmir's puppet parliament about this consumption.


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## Spring Onion

Justin Joseph said:


> Stoning to death is like a form of human sacrifice.



 OHMG bwahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaa


Man you are comparing the stone pelting protests with a Kali cult Hindu human scarifices tradition


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## Marxist

good news.......and nice to know it was done with the help of Kashmiri police


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## Justin Joseph

Jana said:


> *The small kids and young Kashmiri boys use the stones pelting as a tool to show/express their anger against brutalities of Indian Army in Occupied Kashmir and i dont see there is any other justification needed for this.*
> 
> As far my comment on alcohol there was a report last year which was published while quoting some debate in Occupied Kashmir's puppet parliament about this consumption.




*kids are the most fragile group, they don't know anything.*

Just some foreign funded radical puppet uses them.

*what a shame they used small kids so that they continue to make news, that will earn them reward from their foreign masters.*


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## thebrownguy

Jana said:


> OHMG bwahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaa
> 
> 
> Man you are comparing the stone pelting protests with a Kali cult Hindu human scarifices tradition



Clearly shows you are just an *elite troll*, to pass such disgusting rants at someone's religion. Get a life.

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## Justin Joseph

Jana said:


> OHMG bwahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaa
> 
> 
> Man you are comparing the stone pelting protests with a Kali cult Hindu human scarifices tradition



????????????

Stone pelting by a mob to a human being, aim to kil that human bit by bit, breath by breath, a extremely painful death. And that too in name of religion.

Is it not a human sacrifice or what?????


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## thebrownguy

What a waste of youth, in name of Shahadat. These guys need to realize soon, that this is certainly not the way!!

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## Bagee

well done India go and finish things off in style


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## EjazR

Jana said:


> *The small kids and young Kashmiri boys use the stones pelting as a tool to show/express their anger against brutalities of Indian Army in Occupied Kashmir and i dont see there is any other justification needed for this.*
> 
> As far my comment on alcohol there was a report last year which was published while quoting some debate in Occupied Kashmir's puppet parliament about this consumption.



And even religious scholars say that this is foolish way of "Expressing anger". There are much more constructive ways that disrupting people's lives. You have to understand the majority want to lieve normal lives and just go about their work but a few of these teenagers can make life difficult in the commercial areas. Hence the local Kashmir leaders including pro-pakistani ones like Geelani have opposed this. Because most importantly, this is against the Sunnah of the prophet. The Prophet himself (which as muslims we look towards for moral guidance) prohibited to throwing stones and a sahih (strong) hadith was quoted in this regard. There should be no doubts after this.


About Alcohol consumption, it doesn't matter what laws are passed or who is punished, this should come from inside. Now Pakistan I believe officially does not serve Alcohol but it is still available there. Similarly there is a total ban of Alcohol in Gujarat but still people get around it.

If the people are not encouraged to by themselves stay from Alcohol then no amount of laws will stop it. So first of all its the people themselves who should stop it, then naturally the governing body will follow.

And that is how keeping in line with people's wishes the J&K govt. decided not to issue new liquor licenses,maybe this is what you were referring too.
*The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | Omar whip on liquor licence*

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## Spring Onion

thebrownguy said:


> Clearly shows you are just an *elite troll*, to pass such disgusting rants at someone's religion. Get a life.



boooo ask Mr Justin to explain his foolish and trolling post wherein he said stone pelting during protests is a kind of human sacrifice. 

Get life and read before you comment one sidedly


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## Spring Onion

Justin Joseph said:


> :
> 
> Stone pelting by a mob to a human being, aim to kil that human bit by bit, breath by breath, a extremely painful death. And that too in name of religion.
> 
> Is it not a human sacrifice or what?????



First learn difference between human sacrifices and stone pelting during protests


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## Justin Joseph

Jana said:


> boooo ask Mr Justin to explain his foolish and trolling post wherein he said stone pelting during protests is a kind of human sacrifice.
> 
> Get life and read before you comment one sidedly



but i have not mentioned any religion but u have clearly blame Hindus.


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## thebrownguy

Jana said:


> boooo ask Mr Justin to explain his foolish and trolling post wherein he said stone pelting during protests is a kind of human sacrifice.
> 
> Get life and read before you comment one sidedly



Did he write anything like "kali cult" ceremony? That was your addition right? I am not blinded by religion to reply one sidedly. Give respect, get respect.


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## Spring Onion

EjazR said:


> And even religious scholars say that this is foolish way of "Expressing anger". There are much more constructive ways that disrupting people's lives. You have to understand the majority want to lieve normal lives and just go about their work but a few of these teenagers can make life difficult in the commercial areas. Hence the local Kashmir leaders including pro-pakistani ones like Geelani have opposed this. Because most importantly, this is against the Sunnah of the prophet.
> 
> 
> About Alcohol consumption, it doesn't matter what laws are passed or who is punished, this should come from inside. Now Pakistan I believe officially does not serve Alcohol but it is still available there. Similarly there is a total ban of Alcohol in Gujarat but still people get around it.
> 
> If the people are not encouraged to by themselves stay from Alcohol then no amount of laws will stop it. So first of all its the people themselves who should stop it, then naturally the governing body will follow.
> 
> And that is how keeping in line with people's wishes the J&K govt. decided not to issue new liquor licenses,maybe this is what you were referring too.
> *The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | Omar whip on liquor licence*




Ejaz protetsing for your rights and against occupation of your land/country has nothing to do with religion.

Pressurising a Mufti for getting this fatwa against mod of a protest is amusing in itself as if it will stop the protest.


My comment about alcohol was in the same breath  if the mufti was at all interested in anything talking about any Un-islamic practice then that was better to speak about.


As you said no law can stop people from drinking unless they want themselves similarly no fatwa can stop the portesters unless they want themselves to stop the protest.


And stone pelting protest is not a foolish way when the youth is armless and fighting against a highly armed army then stones are the only means just like in Isreal.


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## Spring Onion

thebrownguy said:


> Did he write anything like "kali cult" ceremony? That was your addition right? I am not blinded by religion to reply one sidedly. Give respect, get respect.



He is an Indian right? when is compared the protest with human sacrifices tradition then indeed i have to mention one such tradition from India not from zambia.


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## EjazR

Again, you are missing the point, protesting is not the problem. Its throwing stones that is the problem. Its a simple thing. Its nothing at all to do with unarmed e.t.c. The prophet's (SAW) hadith is there for all of us to read. And this is so strong that even Geelani who is pro-Pakistan has grudgingly agreed that the Grand Mufti is correct. And I find it highly questionable on your part to taint the character of a person you possibly don't even know about. He is one the most well respected mufti in the sub-continent and definitely the most respected in J&K.

And btw, India is not Israel and Kashmir is not Palestine. There is huge difference between the two. But that is a different thread all together. And ofcourse we have all seen how much success the Palestinians have had with their stone pelting. Instead of following the path shown by the Prophet and what he has shown us, they have followed the path of revenge and what their hearts desire.

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## thebrownguy

Jana said:


> He is an Indian right? when is compared the protest with human sacrifices tradition then indeed i have to mention one such tradition from India not from zambia.



I don't want to even argue with fanatics like you, who feel they are closer to their faith, if they bash other faiths. 
No need to fabricate that lame logic of yours. Tkc

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## EjazR

This article was published in 2005, but it is still relevant for those confused between the Kashmir and Palestine situations.

*Kashmir is not Palestine, India is not Israel | India Defence
*
In recent weeks, Pakistan's military dictator, General Parvez Musharraf has been claiming that the situation in Kashmir is akin to Palestine. Such a position is not new because some Islamists, particularly in the US have been arguing for many years that just as Palestine is occupied territory, so is Indian Kashmir.

As a reaction to such misguided polemics, some Hindus frustrated with Pakistan's machinations against India, (and the inability of many in the Islamic world to distinguish fiction from reality in Kashmir) are beginning to identify with Israel.

But nothing could be further from the truth. Kashmir is not Palestine, India is not Israel. While parallels do exist, they are not the ones touted by the advocates of the two-nation theory in Pakistan or by Islamic chauvinists (or revivalists) and other sectarian Islamic elements elsewhere in the world.

For one thing, unlike the Palestinians, who were neither consulted, nor given any choice in the creation of the state of Israel, *the people of Kashmir voluntarily chose to merge with India under the leadership of the secular and progressive Jammu and Kashmir National Conference. When Pakistan invaded Kashmir after 1947, the people of Kashmir formed their own civil-defense committees and thousands of National Conference activists and supporters fought tooth and nail against Pakistani invaders. The Indian Army was welcomed with open arms, and Kashmir was integrated into the Indian nation with some special constitutional rights and privileges. *

Thus, Kashmir became an equal member of the Indian Federal Union, and this merger took place through the democratic will of the people of Jammu and Kashmir, unlike in Palestine where the state of Israel was formed on a thoroughly undemocratic basis, where the will of the Palestinian people was simply ignored. The state of Israel was foisted on the people of Palestine - it was presented to them as a fait accompli - as a colonial imposition that would eventually leave them refugees in their own ancestral land. India did not impose any such unity on the people of Kashmir - it invited the people of Kashmir to merge, who did so in full volition, and full support of the ideals represented by secular and democratic India.

*Unlike Israel which was founded on the sectarian ideology of Zionism, that privileged Jews and Judaic religion and culture over other belief-systems of the Middle East, India was not founded on any such narrow and limiting ideology. Unlike Israel, which unabashedly defends the rights of Jews over all others, India (as a state) has never claimed religious exclusivism for it's Hindu citizens.*

India was envisaged as a nation where democratic rights were to be broadly respected - and the Indian constitution explicitly calls for the respect of ethnic, religious, linguistic and cultural diversity. Unlike Israel, India was not a unitary state founded on the basis of religious hegemony, but a highly pluralistic state that brought together a very diverse group of people in a hard fought and delicately wrought political unity.

Not only did India bring together people who spoke many different languages and followed a variety of regional customs and traditions, even India's Hinduism was too diverse and too varied to allow for any sort of over-arching centralism or hegemony as is provided for in the mono-theistic religions of the world. Hindus worship a variety of gods and goddesses, they have no single holy book, no single holy place of pilgrimage, nor do they believe in just one messiah. The philosophical systems of the Hindus are equally varied, with some schools rejecting all belief in a super-natural entity.

In India's mosaic of religions and cultures, there has been as much space for the people of Jammu and Kashmir as there is for the Tamilians of the South, for the Goans of the West Coast, for the Mizos of the North East hills, or for the Hindi speakers of the plains. The Indian constitution recognizes several Indian languages as official languages, and India's currency notes are printed with denominations marked in several different languages. And anyone truly intimate with the contemporary history of India will know that no one religious or ethnic group has succeeded in complete political domination of the country. Any time any single group attempts to monopolize power, a coalition of forces rises up to combat such a would-be usurper. Thus attempts at religious or regional bullying have invariably been confronted and resisted by opposing factions. That is why, in recent years, India has had to be ruled by multi-party alliances that represent different regional aspirations, and coalitions change with each new election. And each coalition government has demanded sacrifices and compromises from political entities that might otherwise try to dominate the political landscape.

But in the conflict between the Palestinians and the Israeli state, there appears to be little possibility of such give and take, of such checks and balances. Unlike in Israel, where all the top political posts have always been assigned to Zionist Jews, India has had a Muslim President, a Sikh President, a Muslim Vice President, and Sikhs, Muslims, Parsis and Christians holding senior cabinet posts, as well as senior leadership positions in the Indian military and the Indian judiciary. It should also be noted that three of India's Prime Ministers have been Kashmiri or part-Kashmiri - i.e. Jawaharlal Nehru, Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi. Many of the leading icons of India's Planning Commissions have been Kashmiri and Kashmiris are also represented in the Indian Armed Forces and Police Forces. India's current Minister of State for External Affairs Omar Abdullah is a Kashmiri.

Whereas the state of Jammu and Kashmir will always find allies in India's fractious politics, Palestinians cannot count on such fractiousness within Israel to give them any hope or confidence in the future. Although to some extent, the people of Palestine have been compelled to see their oppression in religious terms because of Israel's Zionist ideology, religious differences are not the best way to understand the complexities of the Indian situation. Just as Muslims make up a significant percentage of the Indian population (there are roughly 150 million Muslims in India), roughly one-third of Kashmir's population is non-Muslim i.e. Hindu, Sikh or Buddhist. Whereas the Palestinian Intifada enjoys widespread support throughout the towns and villages of the West Bank and Gaza in Palestine, the cause of Islamic separatism attracts the support of only a minority of the people living in Jammu and Kashmir (who are mainly concentrated around the Srinagar Valley). And while the Arabs still living in Israel overwhelmingly support an end to the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, India's Muslims are not in favor of Kashmiri religious separatism.

There are other important points of departure. Unlike the West Bank and Gaza where the Israeli state has built a network of exclusive settlements for it's Zionist citizens, (through the illegal and arbitrary expropriation of Palestinian lands), the constitution of Kashmir prevents non-Kashmiri Indians from buying up land in the state. *Unlike in Gaza and the West Bank where the Israeli state routinely confiscates weapons from struggling Palestinians, the Indian state (in recent years) has provided small arms to tens of thousands of villagers (Hindu, Muslim and Sikh) who make up the thousands of village-defense committees scattered across Jammu and Kashmir.*

If there is any parallel in the Indian situation with Palestine, it is between how both Israel and Pakistan were created on the basis of artificially hyped religious contradictions by the same former colonial power - Great Britain. In the Indian subcontinent, it was Pakistan that was imposed in an undemocratic manner on the people. Just as Palestinian Christians and Muslims became refugees upon the creation of Israel, Hindus and Sikhs became refugees when Pakistan virtually drove out it's entire non-Muslim population to create a religiously "pure" state. Similiar attempts at creating purely Muslim conclaves have also been made in parts of Kashmir. But if any part of Kashmir is occupied by another nation, it is the part of Kashmir that is under Pakistan's military rule. 

Although the Kashmiri separatist movement has received considerable publicity, separatist movements are just as active within Pakistan (in Baluchistan, Sindh and the Pathan and Pakhtoon regions). Nationalist activists in Gilgit and Baltistan particularly resent Pakistani military occupation. Abdul Hamid Khan, chairman of the Balawaristan National Front has asserted that Gen. Musharraf and other Pakistani generals and political and religious leaders should be booked as "war criminals for the genocide" carried out by them in this region. The Balawaristan leader has stated that more than 900 youth have been killed, 1000 have become disabled and wounded, while 40 were still missing, and several civilian buildings had been destroyed as a consequence of Pakistan sponsored terrorist activities. He said that the region had been denied all political and human rights activities as a result of which more than 100 political activists were facing sedition cases and "no impartial judicial system existed in Balawaristan." (From a report in the Times of India, Aug 3, 2001)

*Hence, a more appropriate comparison is one between the undemocratic Islamic militaristic state of Pakistan and the Zionist militaristic state of Israel. Rather than India being an oppressor in Kashmir, both India and Kashmir are victims at the hands of Pakistan sponsored terror. And just as the US has invariably sided with Israel against the Palestinians, the US continues to defend General Musharraf against India and against those fighting for democracy in Pakistan.*

Kashmir is not Palestine, India is not Israel
------------------

*Note:* Some Indians have also noted how both nations - India and Israel - have been homes to refugees fleeing from persecution - Jews from anti-Semitic Christian Europe, and Hindus and Sikhs from Islamic Pakistan and Bangladesh.

These Indians are thus torn between sympathy for a people who only 50 years ago were the tortured Pariahs of Europe, and sympathy for the Palestinians who languish in refugee camps - without a country to call their own.

But unfortunately, the Jews who may have had every justification for fleeing from the horrendous and catastrophic crimes in imperial and fascist Europe were unable to transcend the ideology of Zionism, and help create a secular and democratic state that could have united Jewish refugees and Jewish Palestinians with Muslim and Christian Palestinians. This has been the tragedy of the Jews, who must now live in a state of perennial war in Israel.

*A secular, democratic and pluralistic nation comprising Jews, Christians and Muslims in Palestine could have put all the other Islamic fundamentalist and despotic nations of the Persian Gulf to shame, but instead, the oppression of the Palestinian people has legitimized the existence of some of these socially backward and politically undemocratic regimes. It is precisely for this reason that many of the so-called backers of the Palestinian cause at best offer only lip-service to the Palestinian struggle - largely leaving the beleaguered Palestinians to fend for themselves. And this is the tragedy of Palestine.*

*Of course, the US role in the Middle East has been far from helpful. US policy in the region has been especially duplicitous, targeting Iraq, one of the most modern and secular amongst the Arab nations, while backing regressive monarchies and regimes based on sectarian chauvinism or religious fundamentalism and exclusivity.*

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## imran iqbal

thebrownguy said:


> I don't want to even argue with fanatics like you, who feel they are closer to their faith, if they bash other faiths.
> No need to fabricate that lame logic of yours. Tkc



Dude, I apologize on her behalf. 



Jana said:


> OHMG bwahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaa
> 
> 
> Man you are comparing the stone pelting protests with a *Kali cult Hindu* human scarifices tradition



And you say India is discriminating against minority muslims while your care for Pakistani hindus is clearly evident from your post.

*Pray* that no Nepali gurkha read your comment. They are very much capable of devastating your PA in their own right.

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## thebrownguy

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hey bro, you don't need to apologize for her.
Some fanatics will never mend their ways.

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## notsuperstitious

Jana said:


> boooo ask Mr Justin to explain his foolish and trolling post wherein he said stone pelting during protests is a kind of human sacrifice.
> 
> Get life and read before you comment one sidedly



Hey you are an 'elite' poster, so i don't know what applies to you.

To us other posters moderators have told strictly to report posts that cross rules and not engage in 'tit for tat' responses.

Lets face it, you love to show your religious bigotry eveywhere, you are only looking for an excuse.

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## karan.1970

thebrownguy said:


> What a waste of youth, in name of Shahadat. These guys need to realize soon, that this is certainly not the way!!



While I understand the sentiment, there is actually no alternative. These guys need to be hunted down to ensure safety of the common citizens of India, like You and me...

Go.. Army....


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## manish123

karan.1970 said:


> J&K: 12 militants killed in encounters
> 
> The Indian Army has killed twelve militants in three separate encounters on Saturday.
> 
> Two militants have been killed in Kalakote and two in the Rajouri district.
> 
> Eight militants have been killed in fierce gun battles with police and security forces in Keran in the Kupwara district of Jammu and Kashmir, police officials said.
> 
> This brings an end to a major operation that has been on for the last 3 days.
> 
> Kashmir is on a terror alert, after the Jammu and Kashmir police were told that a series of attacks were planned for the summer.
> 
> 
> =======================================



Hope they keep up this scorecard or improve upon it


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## Awesome

Damn right! Pelt grenades at the Indian occupation forces instead . The mufti must be told that Islam has nothing to do with the fight for Kashmir. Its a political and secular fight against tyranny and oppression resulting from the subjugation of freewill - the right of self-determination.


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## karan.1970

CNN IBN says- Saifulla, a district commander of LeT is among the terrorists shot down... CNN IBN mentions *credible intelligence received from within P0K *led to the intercept...


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## RobbieS

Asim Aquil said:


> Damn right! Pelt grenades at the Indian occupation forces instead . *The mufti must be told that Islam has nothing to do with the fight for Kashmir.* Its a political and secular fight against tyranny and oppression resulting from the subjugation of freewill - the right of self-determination.



Totally agree. That also must be told to Hafiz Saeed, LeT, Zaid Hamid and their ilk who have made it a war between Islam and India. And I hope you would agree that this also must be told to a majority of Pakistani posters on PDF who raise the slogan of atrocities against brother Muslims whenever Kashmir is mentioned.


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## blueoval79

Excellent work by Indian security forces....kill them all.


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## pop_alsa

Adolf Hitler said:


> and nice to know it was done with the help of Kashmiri police



Whats nice in it?

The army should stop using police against terrorists. It only wastes precious human lives.

Fight against terrorism is responsibility of army and they should not ask police to fight it. They are not trained for it.

Police should rather focus on improving law and order situations and improving security of people from terrorists.

Also, army should focus on hitting on terror camps in P0K rather than sitting here like ducks and waiting for orders from daddy in USA.


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## Mirza Jatt

pop_alsa said:


> Whats nice in it?
> 
> The army should stop using police against terrorists. It only wastes precious human lives.
> 
> Fight against terrorism is responsibility of army and they should not ask police to fight it. They are not trained for it.
> 
> Police should rather focus on improving law and order situations and improving security of people from terrorists.



You are right buddy,but before saying that you must know that we are dcreasing th no. of troops in Kashmir so that the J&K police can take the charge of the state in their hand..th police and the army are working togethr on these operations so that the police gets the entire process of it,and then once they take charge completly,th army can get back and the law order is maintained by the police..and don't worry...the J&K police is trained in army module and they are equally good in bringing down trrorists..so no fear of loss of lives.

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## King Ashoka the Great

Adolf Hitler said:


> good news.......and nice to know it was done with the help of Kashmiri police



Not only Kashmiri polish but also Kashmiri locals, intelligent come mostly from locals. My dad is in J&K border,he told me locals are biggest help for Indian army.Today problem lies only in 3 part kupwara, baramula and poonch because of separatist strong hold.Rest of J&K developing very fast.

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## Spring Onion

RobbieS said:


> Totally agree. That also must be told to Hafiz Saeed, LeT, Zaid Hamid and their ilk who have made it a war between Islam and India. And I hope you would agree that this also must be told to a majority of Pakistani posters on PDF who raise the slogan of atrocities against brother Muslims whenever Kashmir is mentioned.



We as members at PDF always speak for Kashmiris and their struggle against Indian occupation simple as that.


The Kashmiri struggle was never been religious rather its Bharat which has been trying to make it one and also this fatwa is also one such try by India to present Kashmir struggle as religious or fanatic.

However Kashmiris have been struggling for freeing their country from the occupation of India.

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## Al-zakir

Mufti saheb may not be aware how the oppress innocent muslim of kashmir is living in under the anti-islamic tyrant force which also remind me a so called hundustani maulana that criticised general musharraf and also some Ulema-e-Hind gave fatwa to muslim of hundstan to avoid cow sacrfice in eid-ul-adha to show respect majority hindu that worship cow. 

Suicide is absolutely _haram _(forbidden) in Islam and will be thrown into eternal hell yet if a muslim killed himself to defend the motherland from anti-islamic annihilated force then, the same death will be consider as _shahadat_(morderdum) and the reward would be admission to supreme heaven(Jannat-ul- Firdous). 

In principle mufti is right because Islam discurage violent activity however if suicide is _haram _one case yet made _halal _in another case than stoning anti-islamic opprssor in the form of protest to defend their islamic values can not be _haram _as there is no peaceful way to settle this unsettle issue. rule changes with situation.

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## Spring Onion

Al-zakir said:


> Mufti saheb may not be aware how the oppress innocent muslim of kashmir is living in under the anti-islamic tyrant force which also remind me a so called hundustani maulana that criticised general musharraf and also some Ulema-e-Hind gave fatwa to muslim of hundstan to avoid cow sacrfice in eid-ul-adha to show respect majority hindu that worship cow.
> 
> Suicide is absolutely _haram _(forbidden) in Islam and will be thrown into eternal hell yet if a muslim killed himself to defend the motherland from anti-islamic annihilated force then, the same death will be consider as _shahadat_(morderdum) and the reward would be admission to supreme heaven(Jannat-ul- Firdous).
> 
> In principle mufti is right because Islam discurage violent activity however if suicide is _haram _one case yet made _halal _in another case than stoning anti-islamic opprssor in the form of protest to defend their islamic values can not be _haram _as there is no peaceful way to settle this unsettle issue. rule changes with situation.




Zakir i wont speak much about religion as im not expert but as far as Kashmir is concerned this mufti had never issued a fatwa on oppression of Kashmiris.

This stone pelting protests are now becoming affective hence he has been brought to help of the sahooni occupying forces of India and Indian govt.


India had tried its best to blam these stone throwing on ISI lolzz


They even claimed that stone throwers were on phone with ISI people lolzz

That has failed and now India came up with this new drama

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## imran iqbal

Al-zakir said:


> Mufti saheb may not be aware how the oppress innocent muslim of kashmir is living in under the anti-islamic tyrant force which also remind me a so called hundustani maulana that criticised general musharraf and also some Ulema-e-Hind gave fatwa to muslim of hundstan to avoid cow sacrfice in eid-ul-adha to show respect majority hindu that worship cow.
> 
> Suicide is absolutely _haram _(forbidden) in Islam and will be thrown into eternal hell yet if a muslim killed himself to defend the motherland from anti-islamic annihilated force then, the same death will be consider as _shahadat_(morderdum) and the reward would be admission to supreme heaven(Jannat-ul- Firdous).
> 
> In principle mufti is right because Islam discurage violent activity however if suicide is _haram _one case yet made _halal _in another case than stoning anti-islamic opprssor in the form of protest to defend their islamic values can not be _haram _as there is no peaceful way to settle this unsettle issue. rule changes with situation.



Sorry to burst your bubble, there are no anti-islamic forces in Indian Kashmir. I would like to quote one beautiful thread by Ejaz saheb. Make sure you read every word of it

http://www.defence.pk/forums/nation...1338-article-370-balochistan-riaz-shahid.html

Below is short snippet, BTW author and news agency is pakistani



> *I am referring to Article 370 of the Indian constitution, which is almost as old as the Indian constitution itself. Under this Article, the Kashmiris have been given the following protections:
> 
> 
> * Non-Kashmiri Indian citizens cannot permanently settle in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> * Non-Kashmiri Indian citizens cannot purchase immoveable property in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> * Non-Kashmiri Indian citizens cannot vote in the state assembly and/or municipal councils and panchayats.
> 
> * Non-Kashmiri Indian citizens cannot get jobs in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir. All the jobs in the state are reserved for the citizens of the state.
> 
> * The Indian government cannot alter the geographical boundaries of the state of Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> These protections are a great source of moral legitimacy for the Indians. The total population of the Indian Kashmir is less than 11 million according to the census of 2001, out of which just 67 percent is Muslim. It was, theoretically, possible for the Indians to solve the Kashmir problem once and for all by just flooding in just 3-4 million Indians from the rest of India, which would effectively make Muslims a minority in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir. India could have easily taken a leaf from its strategic ally Israel, which has been able to successfully decimate the Palestinian cause by building settlements on the Palestinian territories and then enlarging them in the name of natural growth. But, despite all the cost it has had to suffer at the hands of insurgency in Kashmir and the pressure by the Hindu rightwing, India did not touch Article 370 or amend it in a way to extend the Indian citizenship laws into the state of Jammu and Kashmir.*



Let me rephrase most important para



> *It was, theoretically, possible for the Indians to solve the Kashmir problem once and for all by just flooding in just 3-4 million Indians from the rest of India, which would effectively make Muslims a minority in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir.*



This formula is extensively adopted by Papa China in Tibet and Urmaqui where han chinese immigrated to their lands and made them minority although they have Hokou system to bar immigration within country.

It mean India wants J&K in its original form, not by destroying its values and culture. India gives full rights to muslims to practice their religion, even more than Europe and PRC which confiscates passport of muslims who want haj travel.

Let me quote Ejaz saheb again in another beautiful thread



> However, in absolute terms a majority of Kashmiris still acknowledge their Indian citizenship. Similarly, the average of Indian Muslims who accept the parameters of citizenship is lower by four percentage points than the national average of 89 per cent.
> 
> First of all, let this be clear that 69 per cent of people interviewed in Jammu and Kashmir think of themselves as Indian citizens, says Mitra. Even among Muslims the percentage is 59 per cent. "
> 
> Within the framework of the findings, the split between Jammu and the Kashmir Valley carries the shadow of the separatist movement. In other words 83 per cent of the residents of Jammu count themselves as citizens of India compared to 53 per cent for the Kashmir Valley.



Full report here

http://www.epw.in/epw/uploads/articles/14493.pdf

I know my post is not going to effect you in any positive manner and won't discourage you paddling same rhetoric over in next thread, but at least it will remain at back of your subconscious mind.

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## Xeeshan

EjazR said:


> *Stone pelting is un-Islamic: Kashmiri cleric | TwoCircles.net*
> 
> By IANS,
> 
> New Delhi : Terming stone pelting as a form of protest un-Islamic, the Grand Mufti of Jammu and Kashmir, Maulana Bashir-ud-Din, Wednesday said such violent practices were against the basic tenets of the religion whose essence is "peace and brotherhood".
> 
> "Islam strongly prohibits any means of violence. The stone pelting practice is surely un-Islamic. It causes inconvenience to people and propels more violence," the Grand Mufti told IANS here.
> 
> Bashir-ud-Din heads the Sharia court of Jammu and Kashmir and is also the president of the state Personal Law Board.
> 
> He is authorised to make decisions on Islamic law and issue fatwas - religious edicts.
> 
> Asked if he had issued a fatwa against stone pelting, which some separatists justify as a form of resistance, the mufti said: "What I am saying is not my personal opinion. I, as a Grand Mufti, am making it clear. When Islam doesn't advocate or justify any violence, how can you justify stone pelting? I am saying this in the light of Hadith (sayings of the Prophet) and the holy Quran.
> 
> "Islam is the religion of peace and brotherhood," he added, strongly condemning the practice which over the past two years has become a norm in the troubled state, especially on Fridays.
> 
> After the weekly Friday prayers, streets of downtown in Srinagar and parts of Lal Chowk surge with masked youths, mostly in their teens.
> 
> They throw stones at police and paramilitary personnel, triggering clashes. Security forces, in return, use tear gas and sometimes even open fire at the protestors.
> 
> Recently, a young boy in Old Srinagar was killed when he was hit by a tear gas shell. In another incident, a 10-day-old ailing baby died when a vehicle carrying him and his parents to a hospital was stopped by stone throwers in Kashmir's Baramulla district Feb 21.
> 
> The mufti said the stone pelting had taken a form of alternative employment in Jammu and Kashmir and the government needed to "nip the evil in the bud".
> 
> "They (stone throwers) are paid for what they are doing. What do you do about that? Give Kashmiri youth jobs so that they don't look for unlawful ways of earning," he said.
> 
> The mufti was in the national capital to meet Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Congress president Sonia Gandhi and Home Minister P. Chidambaram.
> 
> "I will meet them to urge for a dialogue process with every shades of opinion in the state to solve the (Kashmir) issue," he said.
> 
> The mufti also condemned the killing of teenage Zahid Farooq, allegedly shot dead by Border Security Forces personnel last month. An official of the border guards has been arrested for the killing.




&#1603;&#1615;&#1578;&#1616;&#1576;&#1614; &#1593;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1610;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;&#1615; &#1575;&#1604;&#1602;&#1616;&#1578;&#1575;&#1604;&#1615; &#1608;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615;&#1608;&#1614; &#1603;&#1615;&#1585;&#1607;&#1612; &#1604;&#1614;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605; &#1750; &#1608;&#1614;&#1593;&#1614;&#1587;&#1609;&#1648; &#1571;&#1614;&#1606; &#1578;&#1614;&#1603;&#1585;&#1614;&#1607;&#1608;&#1575; &#1588;&#1614;&#1610;&#1600;&#1611;&#1620;&#1575; &#1608;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615;&#1608;&#1614; &#1582;&#1614;&#1610;&#1585;&#1612; &#1604;&#1614;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;
Qitaal is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you. (Quran)

So Mr. EjazR, if you even have a little knowledge of Islamic jurisprudence, then you will be aware of the fact that, Quran (and Hadis) has supreme authority of declaring a rule as law. I wonder if this mufti of yours remembered this ayat while he was passing this fatwa.

And btw, have you ever been involved in pointing towards a act which is even remotely constructive? Bringing up such (almost all of your threads/posts) material on a defense forum, tells me about the concern you show in pointing towards a negativity in 1 person out of 2 billion Muslims OR 1 person out of 1.8 million Pakistanis.


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## RobbieS

Jana said:


> We as members at PDF always speak for Kashmiris and their struggle against Indian occupation simple as that.
> 
> 
> The Kashmiri struggle was never been religious rather its Bharat which has been trying to make it one and also this fatwa is also one such try by India to present Kashmir struggle as religious or fanatic.
> 
> However Kashmiris have been struggling for freeing their country from the occupation of India.



Jana, I think you'd agree that the banner of an armed Jehad is regularly unfurled by militant organizations that GoP supports.

With regards to PDF members worrying only about the rights of the Kashmiris and nothing else, we know there's more to it than what meets the eye.


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## A.R.

hey!!!! guys i got a indian flag....


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## Prometheus

good going..................keep it up


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## Draft

Were there any Indian casualties? Hope there were none. Does anybody has news on this?


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## peacekeeper

Prometheus said:


> good going..................keep it up


lose of life should never be praised
However Indian security forces do not have any choice but to kill this terrorist to protect the citizens


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## dekho

I believe that the J&K police is the most seasoned law enforcement unit in india with thier frequent clashes with the militants. It is good to know that their training is army grade.


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## jbond197

Excellent News!! Great Going J&K Police and Indian Army.. Go for the final kill kill all the terrorists..


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## Prometheus

peacekeeper said:


> lose of life should never be praised
> However Indian security forces do not have any choice but to kill this terrorist to protect the citizens



arent you contradicting your own statement?


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## Bingo!

Good going.. one day all the insurgent separatists will be flushed out and Kashmir will be once again the jewel of India

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## Awesome

Whatever the reason being, the banner of armed jihad isn't a concern with Kashmir. Both APHC (who India is desperately courting these days) and JKLF (whom India desperately used to court before) have always included a Kashmir for all Kashmiris, including Hindus and the deposed Pundits.

As long as India occupies Kashmir, every sort of attack on Indian forces occupying Kashmir is justified. If you can't throw grenades at them, throw stones, if you can't throw stones, slap em.

Of course, I'd be smarter than the mullah and say whatever you do, be smart about it. Make sure you get a hit and the only casualty should be on the Indian side. Make sure, you win and they lose. Thats it, other than that, the fight is just and if you want to be free, the fight is a must.


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## riju78

well done j&k police and army. Jai hind


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## prithwidw

Asim Aquil said:


> Whatever the reason being, the banner of armed jihad isn't a concern with Kashmir. Both APHC (who India is desperately courting these days) and JKLF (whom India desperately used to court before) have always included a Kashmir for all Kashmiris, including Hindus and the deposed Pundits.
> 
> As long as India occupies Kashmir, every sort of attack on Indian forces occupying Kashmir is justified. If you can't throw grenades at them, throw stones, if you can't throw stones, slap em.
> 
> Of course, I'd be smarter than the mullah and say whatever you do, be smart about it. Make sure you get a hit and the only casualty should be on the Indian side. Make sure, you win and they lose. Thats it, other than that, the fight is just and if you want to be free, the fight is a must.



Believe me, nothing would ever come out of all these. All this is going down the drain, some terrorists killed, some innocents killed.


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## Hyde

Maulana Mufti saab needs Halwa

I remember another Maulvi saab taking bribe (from the member of Star News i think) and issuing fatwa that using Mobile phones are haraam  Later on that video was released on Star News couple of years ago showing the evidence.

Maulvi Saab does not know that pelting the stones to Shaitan is one of the compulsary ritual of Hajj. Your Hajj is not completed without pelting stones on Shaitaan. Maulvi saab has not clarified what will happen if the oppressor is beating peoples and can we not pelt stones in our defense? this fatwa is flawed and Maulvi saab needs to give more halwa to take his words back. He has issued a fatwa but not given details in what form is he declaring un-Islamic (or the newspaper has hidden the half truth)


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## EjazR

Al-zakir said:


> Suicide is absolutely _haram _(forbidden) in Islam and will be thrown into eternal hell yet if a muslim killed himself to defend the motherland from anti-islamic annihilated force then, the same death will be consider as _shahadat_(morderdum) and the reward would be admission to supreme heaven(Jannat-ul- Firdous).
> 
> In principle mufti is right because Islam discurage violent activity however if *suicide is haram one case yet made halal in another case* than stoning anti-islamic opprssor in the form of protest to defend their islamic values can not be _haram _as there is no peaceful way to settle this unsettle issue. rule changes with situation.



Sorry brother, but that is completely wrong, it is by consensus that suicide bombings are considered haram even by the strict salafi aka wahabbi ulemas in Saudi Arabia.

It is only the takfiri ideologues who adhere to OBL ideology and ABdullah Azzam who try to justify suicide bombings and killing of civilians.

I quote here one of the renowned seikh in Saudi Arabia and the reason I am quoting a salafil sheikh here. You will find similar rulings among other ulema in the sub-conitnet and elsewhere.




> Shaykh Muhammad Bin Saalih al-'Uthaymeen was asked the following concerning attacking an enemy by blowing oneself up, "What is the ruling regarding acts of jihad by means of suicide, such as attaching explosives to a car and storming the enemy, whereby he knows without a doubt that he shall die as a result of this action?"
> 
> Shaykh al-'Uthaymeen responded by saying, "Indeed, my opinion is that he is regarded as one who has committed suicide, and as a result he shall be punished in Hell, for that which is authenticated on the authority of the Prophet (may Allah raise his rank and grant him peace), "Indeed, whoever (intentionally) kills himself, then certainly he will be punished in the Fire of Hell, wherein he shall dwell forever."
> 
> However, one who is ignorant and does not know, and assumes his action was good and pleasing to Allah, then we hope Allah forgives him for what he did due to an erroneous judgement, even though I do not find any excuse for him in the present day. This is because this type of suicide is well known and widespread amongst the people, so it is upon the person to ask the people of knowledge (the religious scholars) regarding it, until right guidance is made distinct from error for him.
> 
> And from that which is surprising, is that these people kill themselves despite Allah having forbidden this, as He said in the Quran:
> 
> "And do not kill yourselves. Surely, Allah is Most Merciful to you."
> 
> And many from amongst them do not desire anything except revenge upon the enemy, by whatever means, be it halal (permissible) or haram (forbidden). So they only want to satisfy their thirst for revenge.
> 
> We ask Allah to bless us with foresight in His religion and action(s) which please Him. Indeed, He is all-Powerful over all things."
> 
> Elsewhere, Shaykh al-'Uthaymeen commented specifically about the suicide bombings which take place in Palestine: "This is what is found from the practice of the Jews with the people of Palestine - so when one of the Palestinians blows himself up and kills six or seven people, then in retaliation, they take sixty or more. So this does not produce any benefit for the Muslims, and does not benefit those amongst whose ranks explosives are detonated.
> 
> *So what we hold is that those people who perform these suicide (bombings) have wrongfully committed suicide, and that this necessitates entry into the Hellfire, and Allah's refuge is sought; and that this person is not a shahid (martyr). However, if a person has done this upon misrepresentation, thinking that it is permissible, then we hope that he will be saved from sin. But as for martyrdom being written for him, then no, since he has not taken the path of martyrdom.*"



*AbdurRahman.org [Do Wahhabis Support Suicide Bombings? ]*


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## EjazR

Xeeshan said:


> &#1603;&#1615;&#1578;&#1616;&#1576;&#1614; &#1593;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1610;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;&#1615; &#1575;&#1604;&#1602;&#1616;&#1578;&#1575;&#1604;&#1615; &#1608;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615;&#1608;&#1614; &#1603;&#1615;&#1585;&#1607;&#1612; &#1604;&#1614;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605; &#1750; &#1608;&#1614;&#1593;&#1614;&#1587;&#1609;&#1648; &#1571;&#1614;&#1606; &#1578;&#1614;&#1603;&#1585;&#1614;&#1607;&#1608;&#1575; &#1588;&#1614;&#1610;&#1600;&#1611;&#1620;&#1575; &#1608;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615;&#1608;&#1614; &#1582;&#1614;&#1610;&#1585;&#1612; &#1604;&#1614;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;
> Qitaal is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you. (Quran)
> 
> So Mr. EjazR, if you even have a little knowledge of Islamic jurisprudence, then you will be aware of the fact that, Quran (and Hadis) has supreme authority of declaring a rule as law. I wonder if this mufti of yours remembered this ayat while he was passing this fatwa.
> 
> And btw, have you ever been involved in pointing towards a act which is even remotely constructive? Bringing up such (almost all of your threads/posts) material on a defense forum, tells me about the concern you show in pointing towards a negativity in 1 person out of 2 billion Muslims OR 1 person out of 1.8 million Pakistanis.



And do you know the context for this verse? It is in a situation where you are not allowed to practice and preach your religion. Where the faith of Islam itself was being targeted by the oppressors in Mecca. 

The Hadith Quoted by the mufti is also a sahih hadith, I think you haven't read the entire thread so here it is.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...n-islamic-grand-mufti-kashmir.html#post719606


However, lets get on thing straight there is no problem in practicing your faith or preach Islam in Jammu and Kashmir or the entire length and breadth of India. It is one of the few countries in the world where a muslim personal laws for inheritance, marriage and divorce are still upheld separately in the light of Qurna and Sunnah. So this does not apply. Infact the majority of the J&K police is muslim. There is an entire infantry battalion that consists of locals J&K Light Infantry Battalion. And an increasing number of paramilitary personnel are also being recruited locally. The entire administration and government consists of elected officials at the state and national levels. Very soon they will have representatives at Local Government levels as well.

And I believe that I AM indulging in something constructive. By helping Pakistanis see the true picture of J&K which they don't realise. Some groups have maligned the word Jihad so much by using it for wrong and political purposes that the importance of this concept is not known to even muslims now. They look at it as some taboo concept when in fact it was a noble concept to strive for righteousness and justice and where innocents are not killed or targeted. And that is what I am doing, reclaiming this from the so-called "Jihadi" groups who have no idea about it and have tarnished thsi noble concept.

*and @Zaki also*
And as I keep mentioning, even Geelani - a pro Pakistani separatist has admitted that stone pelting should not continue in light of this hadith. So is Geelani now an Indian puppet?


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## ice_man

look i seriously think if the mufti said that don't throw stones FINE! accept it that doesn't change the HATE the kashmiris have towards indians!! does it?

pelting or no pelting indai is oppressing the kashmiris!!


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## Al-zakir

EjazR said:


> It is only the takfiri ideologues who adhere to OBL ideology and ABdullah Azzam who try to justify suicide bombings and *killing of civilians.*



I have not said anything about killing civilians. What if your homeland is under attack by annihilated force and you have no other effective way to destroy enemy except become a human time bomb. What that be allowed in the form of jihad?


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## manish123

pop_alsa said:


> Whats nice in it?
> 
> The army should stop using police against terrorists. It only wastes precious human lives.
> 
> Fight against terrorism is responsibility of army and they should not ask police to fight it. They are not trained for it.
> 
> Police should rather focus on improving law and order situations and improving security of people from terrorists.
> 
> Also, army should focus on hitting on terror camps in P0K rather than sitting here like ducks and waiting for orders from daddy in USA.



Since when did army's responsibilities include fighting terrorism.They came only when police and para military foces were not able to handle the situation.Little by little army is handing control back to paramilitary and police and I see nothing wrong in that and its good to talk about hitting terrorist camps but a couple of tomahawks would put a cold stop to indian ambitions.better we first have the capability and then think of hitting outside our borders.


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## TheHawk

Azerbaijan is on your side Pakistani brothers.

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## IBRIS

TheHawk said:


> Azerbaijan is on your side Pakistani brothers.



not really, you are reserved to Russians.


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## jinxeD_girl

IBRIS said:


> not really, you are reserved to Russians.



TheHawk was giving us moral support


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## EjazR

^^^ 
I have posted the opinion of a well known religious scholar on this. Moreover, it mostly civilians who do get killed in suicide bombings.

And as the sheikh said, are you really "destroying" the enemy? And how could you do it by doing something haram(suicide) in any case. And many ulema concur with this viewpoint. 

P.S.: I have to add a correction to my quote in my post. It was OBL who justified civilians killings for the first time. Abdulla Azzam only justified suicide bombings.

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## abrahams

hrw.org/en/news/2006/09/20/pakistan-free-kashmir-far-free

Pakistan: &#8216;Free Kashmir&#8217; Far From Free
Government Opponents Face Torture, Censorship and Political Repression

SEPTEMBER 21, 2006
DOWNLOADABLE RESOURCES: 
Also available in &#1575;&#1615;&#1585;&#1583;&#1608;
RELATED MATERIALS: 
&#8220;With Friends Like These&#8230;&#8221;
"Everyone Lives in Fear"
Although &#8216;azad&#8217; means &#8216;free,&#8217; the residents of Azad Kashmir are anything but.

Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch
(Islamabad) - In Azad Kashmir, a region largely closed to international scrutiny until a devastating earthquake hit last year, the Pakistani government represses democratic freedoms, muzzles the press and practices routine torture, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today.

Based on research in Azad Kashmir (which means &#8220;free Kashmir&#8221 and Pakistan, the 71-page report, &#8220;&#8216;With Friends Like These &#8230;&#8217;: Human Rights Violations in Azad Kashmir,&#8221; uncovers abuses by the Pakistani military, intelligence services and militant organizations.

&#8220;Although &#8216;azad&#8217; means &#8216;free,&#8217; the residents of Azad Kashmir are anything but,&#8221; said Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch. &#8220;The Pakistani authorities govern Azad Kashmir with strict controls on basic freedoms.&#8221;

Before a massive earthquake struck in October, Azad Kashmir was one of the most closed territories in the world. Tight controls on freedom of expression have been a hallmark of government policy in Azad Kashmir. Pakistan has prevented the creation of independent media in the territory through bureaucratic restrictions and coercion. Publications and literature favoring independence is banned. While militant organizations promoting the incorporation of Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir state into Pakistan have had free rein to propagate their views, groups promoting an independent Kashmir find their speech sharply, sometimes violently curtailed.

Under Azad Kashmir&#8217;s constitution, which Pakistan imposed in 1974, election candidates are prescreened to ensure that only those who support Kashmir&#8217;s union with Pakistan can contest elections. Anyone who wants to take part in public life in Azad Kashmir has to sign a pledge of loyalty to Pakistan, while anyone who publicly supports or peacefully works for an independent Kashmir faces persecution.

&#8220;There is a fa&#231;ade of an elected local government, but the federal government in Islamabad, the army and the intelligence agencies control all aspects of political life in Azad Kashmir,&#8221; said Adams. &#8220;The military shows no tolerance for dissent and practically runs the region as a fiefdom.&#8221;

Torture is routinely used in Pakistan, and this practice is also routine in Azad Kashmir. Human Rights Watch has documented incidents of torture by the intelligence services and others acting at the army&#8217;s behest but knows of no cases in which members of military and paramilitary security and intelligence agencies have been prosecuted or even disciplined for acts of torture or mistreatment.

Despite the Pakistani government&#8217;s criticism of human rights violations in neighbouring Jammu and Kashmir state in India, refugees from Jammu and Kashmir are discriminated against and mistreated by the authorities. Kashmiri refugees and former militants from India, most of whom are secular nationalists and culturally and linguistically distinct from the peoples of Azad Kashmir, are particularly harassed through constant surveillance, curbs on political expression, arbitrary arrest and beatings.

&#8220;The Pakistani government often pretends that the only problems faced by Kashmiris are in India,&#8221; said Adams. &#8220;It should start looking into ways of ending human rights abuses in Azad Kashmir.&#8221;

Human Rights Watch urged international donors, which have poured billions of dollars of urgently needed relief and reconstruction aid into Azad Kashmir since the earthquake, to insist on structural changes in governance and the promotion of both human rights and the rule of law. Recent corruption allegations against senior government officials highlight serious weaknesses in the rule of law and governmental accountability.

&#8220;As it supports reconstruction efforts, the international community must insist that Pakistan respect the human rights of the people of Azad Kashmir,&#8221; said Adams. &#8220;The Pakistani government must ensure that the people of Azad Kashmir can exercise their fundamental civil and political rights in an environment free of coercion and fear.&#8221;

Testimonies from the report:

&#8220;About six or seven soldiers led by a major ran the proceedings, which lasted for about five days. The soldiers kept changing and &#8216;worked&#8217; us in shifts. They started by making us do push-ups and sit-ups for hours, then beat us with rods and belts when we collapsed in exhaustion. They kept saying that we must admit that we had become &#8216;double agents,&#8217; that we had crossed over to the Indian side because we were &#8216;Hindu lovers,&#8217; that we were &#8216;shameless bastards who wanted to be raped by the rapists of our sisters and mothers.&#8217; Initially, I and the others argued, told them they were wrong and what they were doing was wrong. But when you are beaten and bloodied, barely conscious, nothing really matters beyond a point. They decided to make a particular example of Sameer [name changed] who was the most vocal of us. In front of us, he was stripped naked and chillies were shoved up his rectum. He screamed and screamed and the more he screamed the more they beat him with batons and belts, kicked him, punched him. They would beat him unconscious, bring him back and then beat him unconscious again. He did not die in front of us. But it has been eight years and we never saw him again after those five days together so I think he is dead. He has to be. After what they did to him, it would be better for him too.&#8221;
&#8211; Interview with &#8220;Shahid,&#8221; a former militant, Azad Kashmir

&#8220;On April 7, we went on a hunger strike &#8230;Why have we been locked up for hailing and supporting the bus [service between Srinagar and Muzaffarabad]? On April 10, at about 6 a.m., we were given breakfast. We refused. The jail authorities started beating us with sticks and metal rods. About 14 or 15 people were beating each person. All other criminal prisoners and the police present were included. The jail superintendent, Raja Aftab, was standing at the sentry post directing the prisoners to beat us. We were beaten badly. (It was pre-arranged between the other prisoners and the police.) One person had an eye torn out. One had several head injuries. Another had his hand broken. Everyone was bruised. We were beaten for about two-and-a-half hours. This happened in all three cells between 6 a.m. to 8:30 a.m. Then the jailer came and said, &#8216;If you don&#8217;t eat, we will shove the food up your ***.&#8217; We agreed to eat under duress, as those who refused to eat were beaten very severely. Mohammad Ayub Butt refused to eat, so they cracked his spine. Why did the Azad Kashmir government arrest us and beat us up? We were only supporting the stated policy of the Pakistani government. Is that not allowed? Or does Musharraf sitting in Islamabad not know what goes on in Muzaffarabad?&#8221;
&#8211; Jamil Mirza, a refugee from Jammu and Kashmir state, Muzaffarabad, August 3, 2005


so much for the free kashmir...


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## ARCHON

ice_man said:


> nope! the world is not neutral by any means! when clearly AZAAD KASHMIR has its own government,legislature & even its own flag!
> 
> as for "neutral" world they call it the indian sub-continent and the indian ocean completely disregarding the pakistanis,sri-lankans & bangladeshis! so please don't tell me the world is neutral
> 
> as for pakistan jumping the gun well you said pakistan invaded an independant nation! what about india invading Junagadh, hyderabad or EAST PAKISTAN??
> 
> and we made tribals enter kashmir AFTER india invaded junagadh! and convinently it held a plebiscite within weeks! however, it still has to honour its word on kashmir!
> 
> the problem is your history books teach you stuff which maes india look like the victim! which it by no means is!




*Azad Kashmir today*
By Ahmad Faruqui 

Azad Kashmir was created within two months of Pakistans independence with high expectations. Nestled in the mountainous western region that abuts the vale of Kashmir, it forms an archers bow that is about 100 miles long and about 20-40 miles wide. 

The Pakistani security elite hoped that an arrow fired from the bow would bring about the instant liberation of the vale of Kashmir from Indian occupation. The first arrow was fired almost within days of creation. 

It plunged the entire region of Kashmir into armed conflict. Fourteen months later, a ceasefire sponsored by the United Nations took effect on Jan 1, 1949. The ceasefire line remained stationary despite several attempts to move it. But after the 1971 war which saw the secession of East Pakistan, it was renamed the Line-of-Control (LoC). That militaristic designation persists to this day since the line which separates the two Kashmirs has not been formalised as an international border. 

Azad means free and Azad Kashmir was supposed to serve as a model state whose liberty and freedom would inspire rebellion in Indian-administered Kashmir. That did not happen for several reasons. Constitutionally, Azad Kashmir is not a part of Pakistan. But neither is it an independent state. For its entire 62-year history, it has depended on Pakistan for its economic and political survival. It does not even issue its own postage stamps.

Because Islamabad has always exercised its claim on the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir, Azad Kashmir is not counted as a fifth province of Pakistan. But for all practical purposes, Muzaffarabad lives under Islamabads shadow. Its first government was established on Oct 24, 1947 with Sardar Mohammed Ibrahim as president. On Nov 3, 1947, Azad Kashmir sought unsuccessfully to join the United Nations as a member state. 

In March 1949, after the dust had settled along the ceasefire line, Azad Kashmir signed a power-sharing arrangement with the Government of Pakistan ceding all authority related to defence, foreign affairs, refugees and the plebiscite to Pakistan. 

Pakistan created a Ministry for Kashmir Affairs to look after its newest asset. However, as events would show, the ministry was soon preoccupied with influencing political direction in Azad Kashmir. Not surprisingly, the ministrys directives were not always well received by Azad Kashmiris. At times, they were met with stiff resistance. 

In 1955, Pakistan declared martial law in some parts of Azad Kashmir to suppress street violence triggered by the Kashmir Act. In 1957, Pakistan resorted to police action to quell a public meeting that was seeking direct action to create a united and liberated Kashmir. In 1961, President Ayub Khan carried out indirect elections in Azad Kashmir through a Basic Democracies Ordinance which legally only applied to Pakistan, further straining ties with the Azad Kashmiris.

Subsequently, faced with Islamabads dominance in their day-to-day affairs, several Azad Kashmiri leaders started a movement for liberating Indian-held Kashmir not for Pakistan but for creating a separate Kashmiri state. This further aggravated ties with Pakistan. While all this was happening, Jammu and Kashmir was inducted into the Indian union. 

In 1965, the Pakistani army launched a covert war inside Indian Kashmir seeking to instigate a popular rebellion. This arrow too missed its target. Instead, it enraged India which launched a strong counter-offensive along the international border with West Pakistan. 

Under the weight of the Indian elephant, the Pakistani military hastily called of its operations in Kashmir. The war ended in an UN-brokered ceasefire along the international border with minimal changes in the Kashmiri line. After the war, Pakistan lost its urge to light a fire across the Line of Control (LoC). Matters changed in 1979 when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan and the Pakistani military, with US and Saudi assistance, began training legions of Mujahideen to evict the godless communists. 

After a bruised and battered Red Army pulled out of Kabul in 1989, Indian Jammu and Kashmir found itself in the grip of a large-scale revolt. Whether this was a purely indigenous movement or a corollary to events in Kabul continues to enrich scholarly volumes. 

Regardless of the cause, the uprising in the vale provided the Kashmir hawks in Pakistans security elite yet another opportunity to press on with their objective. They reactivated their bases in Azad Kashmir and once again decided to fire arrows into Indian Jammu and Kashmir. Soon, freedom fighters, armed and trained allegedly by the Pakistan Army, were rolling across in droves across the LoC. 

Azad Kashmir was again in the cross-hairs of armed conflict. Against this backdrop, Pakistan under Gen Ziaul Haq decided to legally separate the geographically much larger Northern Areas of Gilgit and Baltistan from Azad Kashmir. This caused almost as much consternation in the latter as it did in India. The separation of the Northern Areas by Pakistan eliminated all doubts about the sovereignty of Azad Kashmir. With the reactivation of conflict across the Line-of-Control, the quality of life of the Azad Kashmiris was trammelled. Those who did not want to take part in the proxy war became pariahs. 

Most of the cross-border infiltration was halted in the wake of 9/11 and the US invasion of Afghanistan. The attack on the Indian parliament in December 2001 was designed to reinvigorate the Kashmir issue but all it did was bring India and Pakistan to the brink of full-scale war in 2002. For a while the Musharraf regime sought to differentiate the struggle for freedom in Kashmir from political acts of terror but its spin failed to gain traction with the world community. Cross-border terrorism was quiet for several years. 

The attacks on Mumbai by a group linked to militant activities in Kashmir in November 2008 were an attempt to reignite the conflict but succeeded only in drawing widespread opprobrium. During the past 62 years, the people of Azad Kashmir have been unable to arise out of poverty in large measure because they are caught in the crossfire between India and Pakistan. The land which their elders knew as a mountain paradise has been turned into a living hell. 

Of the four million people who inhabit the region, nine of 10 live in extremely impoverished conditions in rural areas. Population growth is excessive, at 2.4 per cent per year, and the average house holds no fewer than seven people. Sadly, Azad Kashmirs future is as murky today as it was in 1947. And the objective for its creation, the liberation of the vale of Kashmir, seems increasingly remote.


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## ice_man

ok where are the stone peltting people where is street protests like in indian held kashmir? why aren't the kashmiris collabrating with indians to screw pakistanis over?????

PICTURES speak a thousdand words! the international community that indians love to call "neutral" never raised any concern about azaad kashmir persecution did they? no kashmiri freedom struggle is being led in azaad kashmir is it?


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## EjazR

^^^^ International community not raising the human rights issues in Pakistani Kashmir? My friend you are mistaken, Pakistani Kashmir including the northern areas have been regularly on the watch list of almost all international bodies.

You can do a google search on Human Rights watch reports, International Crisis Group, UNHCR, and the recent EU parliamentary report under Baroness Emma on Kashmir in 2007 and the resolution that was passed by an overwhelming majority vote after-wards

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## Cisco-GUY

EU parliamentary report under Baroness Emma on Kashmir in 2007

EU passes Emma Nicholson's Kashmir report with an overwhelming Majority



> Strasbourg (France), May 24 : The European Parliament here today passed the Baroness Emma Nicholson report on Kashmir with an overwhelming majority.
> 
> *The report, which has criticised the human rights situation in the Pakistani side of Kashmir, got a thumping approval from the parliamentarians.*
> 
> Prior to the debate on the report at the plenary session of the European Parliament, Baroness Nicholson gave a firm rejoinder to a letter that she had received from Saeed Khalid, Pakistan's Ambassador to the European Union.
> 
> Responding to Ambassador Khalid's contention that the Northern Areas of Pakistan were never a part of Jammu and Kashmir, and that the Siachen Glacier formed a part of the Northern Areas, Baroness Nicholson said that she could not "commend" the Pakistan Government's "new position" to the European Parliament.
> 
> Stating that she had rigorously revisited her earlier research on the geography and history of the region, including checking of maps, treaties, historic documents and speeches from 1846 till date, and had come to the following conclusions:
> 
> *1. All the evidence points to the fact that Gilgit and Baltistan region were constituent parts of Jammu and Kashmir by 1877.
> 
> 2. They were under the sovereignty of Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir and remained in this princely domain till the date of accession on October 26, 1947.
> 
> 3. The assertion that the Northern Areas were independent of Jammu and Kashmir in August 1947 was incorrect, as the British had only leased a small part of the territory from the Maharajah (Hari Singh) on March 29, 1935, to provide a strong defence and security provision against persistent Russian invasion of the State.
> 
> 4. The lease did not take away the sovereignty of Jammu and Kashmir. Ownership remained fairly and squarely with the ruler. The lease came to an end on August 1, 1947 in preparation for partition on August 15, 1947, thus giving the ruler full powers to decide which two emerging nations would his state join.*
> 
> Baroness Nicholson further went on to say that as supporting evidence, she was forwarding an official map of the region as it existed in 1909, which clearly showed Gilgit and Baltistan to be well within the State borders of Kashmir, an extract of the leasehold agreement of 1935, an extract of the Instrument of *Accession of October 26, 1947 and a letter from Maharaja Hari Singh giving reasons for his decision to accede the State of Jammu and Kashmir to the Dominion of India.*
> 
> Turning to the issue of the Siachen Glacier being a part of the Northern Areas, she said that she could not incorporate Pakistan's viewpoint on the issue into the final report, as the "Siachen Glacier issue only found small mention in the report, and new section would have to be created to adopt the eleven paragraphs of information provided by Islamabad."
> 
> She said that a reworking of a report of such magnitude at such a late stage was "highly unlikely and politically unacceptable"
> 
> *She also said that there was no "historical or geographical justification for Pakistan's contention that Gilgit and Baltistan were not a part of the erstwhile royal state of Jammu and Kashmir.*
> 
> *Earlier this week, Baroness Emma, who is also the Vice-Chairman of the European Parliament's Committee on Foreign Affairs, deplored the recent outbreaks of violence in Karachi and said that the overwhelming need of the hour, is to "secure an independent justice system to address the situation of the people of Pakistan, and particularly those of AJK (Ajad Jammu and Kashmir)
> and Gilgit and Baltistan".
> 
> While admitting that both Pakistan and India have been encouraged to apply the UN Security Council (UNSC) resolutions on Kashmir, from 1948 to 1971 for all measures to improve the situation in Kashmir, the recent violations of various UNSC resolutions, suggest that "preconditions for using the plebiscite have not been met, and cannot be met by Pakistan at this time."*
> 
> Baroness Nicholson has strongly recommended that the Government of Pakistan endorses and implements the judgement of the Supreme Court of Pakistan of 28 May 1999 which validates the Kashmiri heritage of the people of Gilgit and Baltistan and states that the Government should implement their fundamental human rights, democratic freedoms and access to justice.
> 
> *She says that Pakistan has consistently failed to fulfil its obligations to introduce meaningful and representative democratic structures on its side of Kashmir.
> 
> Nicholson is particularly critical of the fact that the Pakistan side of Kashmir is governed through the Ministry of Kashmir Affairs in Islamabad, that Pakistan officials dominate the Kashmir Council and that the Chief Secretary, the Inspector-General of Police, the Accountant-General and the Finance Secretary are all from Pakistan.
> 
> She has also expressed her disapproval of the provision in the 1974 Interim Constitution, which forbids any political activity that is not in accordance with the doctrine of Jammu and Kashmir, as part of Pakistan, and obliges any candidate for a parliamentary seat in AJK to sign a declaration of loyalty to that effect.*
> 
> That the Gilgit-Baltistan region enjoys no form of democratic representation whatsoever has also caused her concern.
> 
> Furthermore, she welcomes the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation (SAARC) move to work effectively towards making the South Asia Free Trade Agreement (SAFTA) a political and economic reality which will maximise the benefits for four parts of Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> She concludes by calling on the Government of Pakistan to end the "positive list" system; notes positively that, although trade between the two countries has fluctuated over the past decade, the overall level of official trade between India and Pakistan has increased from USD 180 million in 1996 to USD 602 million in 2005. She believes this latent trading potential between the two countries should be encouraged.


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## karan.1970

3 militants, jawan killed in J&K gunbattle - India - The Times of India

JAMMU: Three militants and an army jawan were killed and two policemen were injured in two separate gunbattles in Rajouri district of Jammu and Kashmir on Tuesday, security officials said. 

Acting on a tipoff, army and police personnel launched a cordon-and-search operation in LambiBeri-Tilnai Khoo forests in Kandi Bhudal belt of Rajouri district against militants trying to infiltrate from across the border, they said. 

In the gunbattle that raged till late in the evening, two militants and an army jawan were killed and another injured, they said adding two to three militants are still trapped. The injured jawan was airlifted to the military hospital in critical condition, they said adding additional troops have been rushed to the spot and bodies are yet to be recovered. 

Police and troops, who were searching for a group of infiltrating militants, finally trapped the militants in Triyath area of the same district this evening, they said adding militants fired on the search party led by Additional SP R K Bhat, setting off another gunfight. 

One militant was killed and SHO of Dharamshal police station Showkat Ali injured at Triyath, the officials said adding four to five militants are trapped in the cordon as the gunbattle escalated. The body of the militant is yet to be recovered.


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## desiman

You mess with India and this is what you will get lol Jai Hind, im soo proud of our soldiers  keep up the great work


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## deckingraj

pop_alsa said:


> Whats nice in it?
> 
> The army should stop using police against terrorists. It only wastes precious human lives.
> 
> Fight against terrorism is responsibility of army and they should not ask police to fight it. They are not trained for it.
> 
> Police should rather focus on improving law and order situations and improving security of people from terrorists.
> *
> Also, army should focus on hitting on terror camps in P0K rather than sitting here like ducks and waiting for orders from daddy in USA.*



What??? Army job is not to fight with terrorists...Army job is to protect our borders....Army guarding civilian areas is not a good idea both for Army and Civilians.. Special Forces like NSG are supposed to do the job...Obviously you cannot expect things to change suddenly however the good side is that realization is there...J&K CM Omar Abdullah said in some interview that slowly but surely we will move Army out of civilian areas....Army role should and would be limited to guarding the borders until peace with Pakistan is achieved and then even that role should be given to BSF.....

As far as bolded part is concerned then i have one question for you where do you live bro??? India is a democratic set-up and Army obeys orders of GOI....If GOI says so Army will move in and clear whatever needs to be cleared!!!


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## ASQ-1918

TheHawk said:


> Azerbaijan is on your side Pakistani brothers.



Indeed.

We support them in Kashmir issue and they support us in Karabakh.

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## Desert Fox

ASQ-1918 said:


> Indeed.
> 
> We support them in Kashmir issue and they support us in Karabakh.



thanks bro's


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## karan.1970

*MOD EDIT: Title changed by moderator *
6 LeT militants killed in J&K encounter - India - The Times of India

JAMMU: Six Lashkar-e-Taiba militants of Pakistani origin, who had escaped from Triyath forest after a brief encounter three days ago, were killed by security forces after they tracked them down in Rajouri district of Jammu and Kashmir on Thursday. 

Police and security forces tracked down the group of militants in Talli Dharaman-Sarothi belt (Triyath) of Kalakote tehsil of Rajouri district and trapped them around 1430 hours, Senior Superintendent of Police, Rajouri, Shafkat Watalie told PTI, giving details of anti-terrorist 'Operation Khoj'. 

The joint operation party retaliated after militants fired on them, SSP said, adding that in the fierce gunbattle that ensued for three-and-a-half hours, six militants were killed. 

A search team of Police led by Additional Superintendent of Police R K Bhat and assisted by Army, Special Operation Group (SoG) and CRPF tracked down the militants who had escaped from Triyath forest on March 30 following a brief encounter with the security personnel. 

A jawan had been killed and Station House Officer (SHO) of Daramshal Police Station Inspector Showkat Ali was injured in that incident. 

"For the past three days, police and security force team was searching for them in dense forest and deep valley in Dharamshal belt and finally tracked them," a senior police officer said.

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## thebrownguy

6 more lives go down the shahadat drain!! Man, these guys need to realize that this armed struggle will fetch nothing!!!


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## Iggy

May the brave Jawans soul rest in peace..


Looks like 6 more guys got their dates

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## s6demon

times of India, so the real story is probably that they killed 6 innocent Muslim Kashmiris and are now calling them terrorists.

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## karan.1970

s6demon said:


> times of India, so the real story is probably that they killed 6 innocent Muslim Kashmiris and are now calling them terrorists.



I guess same as what PA is doing in FATA, SWAT and NWFP.. Asking all taliban to disperse, to be used later for formenting terrorism in Afg. Catching hold of Innocent Pashtuns and killing them and showing dead bodies to collect aid from US...???



See how bad it feels when the shoe is on the other foot.. What you said was as ridiculous as the statement above..

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## s6demon

karan.1970 said:


> I guess same as what PA is doing in FATA, SWAT and NWFP.. Asking all taliban to disperse, to be used later for formenting terrorism in Afg. Catching hold of Innocent Pashtuns and killing them and showing dead bodies to collect aid from US...???
> 
> See how bad it feels when the shoe is on the other foot.. What you said was as ridiculous as the statement above..




Atleast you admit your statement was ridiculous. I stand by what i said, Indian Army has a well documented track record of killing inoocent people and branding then terrorists afterwards. you can just google or youtube first hand accounts.

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## prithwidw

s6demon said:


> Atleast you admit your statement was ridiculous. I stand by what i said, Indian Army has a well documented track record of killing inoocent people and branding then terrorists afterwards. you can just google or youtube first hand accounts.



And most of those videos are posted or tailor made by fanatics like you. Stop justifying terrorists, or your home will also burn someday.

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## karan.1970

s6demon said:


> Atleast you admit your statement was ridiculous. I stand by what i said, Indian Army has a well documented track record of killing inoocent people and branding then terrorists afterwards. you can just google or youtube first hand accounts.



Whatever.. N'joy your delusions... IA thinks they were terrorists and shot them like the pigs they are.. thats good enough for me and most indians.. If you have an issue with that, too bad ...


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## Mirza Jatt

just six this time??? anyways good work Indian army !! we need more !! don't allow a single of these *TERRORISTS* to enter in our kashmir...all the best.

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## Star Trek

Good riddance - death to terrorist pigs.


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## s6demon




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## s6demon

here are those "terrorists" indian army kills every single day

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## prithwidw

IA should kill more and more and thus finally we can get rid of terrorism. Some still would continue, *courtesy : you know whom?*


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

How does the media know they were LeT instead of some other group?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> I guess same as what PA is doing in FATA, SWAT and NWFP..



FATA, Swat and Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa are not occupied and disputed territory.

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## prithwidw

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> FATA, Swat and Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa are not occupied and disputed territory.



Fine if this is what GoP says.

GoI says P-O-K is also Indian land and not a disputed territory.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

prithwidw said:


> Fine if this is what GoP says.
> 
> GoI says P-O-K is also Indian land and not a disputed territory.



Then the GoI would be wrong, since the status of J&K is disputed. The status of Swat, FATA and K-P is not disputed. Karan referenced the latter, not AK.

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## IBRIS

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> FATA, Swat and Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa are not occupied and disputed territory.



Durand Line is expired. so, it's disputed territory for AFGHANS.

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## prithwidw

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Then the GoI would be wrong, since the status of J&K is disputed. The status of Swat, FATA and K-P is not disputed. Karan referenced the latter, not *AK*.



AM, we don't call it AK. We call it P-O-K. Rings a bell?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

IBRIS said:


> Durand Line is expired. so, it's disputed territory for AFGHANS.



There is nothing about 'expiration' in the Durand agreement. That is a lie concocted by some Afghan expansionists. Go ahead, look it up and show me instead of regurgitating flawed Afghan/Indian anti-Pakistan talking points.

No one other than those Afghan nationalists considers the Durand anything but an international border. If certain Afghans wish to claim that the Durand is expired and therefore FATA and K-P are disputed, then they need to take their case to the UN or some other international body and have resolutions passed or judgments issued in their favor.

Till then they can rant about 'expired' all they want.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

prithwidw said:


> AM, we don't call it AK. We call it P-O-K. Rings a bell?



Call it what you will, it does not change the status.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How does the media know they were LeT instead of some other group?



So how did they determine these guys were LeT?

Or is this typical Indian propaganda to link everything they can to the LeT since it is in the news these days?

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## prithwidw

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Call it what you will, it does not change the status.



I am fine with that, are you?

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## s6demon

more of indian army's doing in Kashmir.

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## IBRIS

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> There is nothing about 'expiration' in the Durand agreement. That is a lie concocted by some Afghan expansionists. Go ahead, look it up and show me instead of regurgitating flawed Afghan/Indian anti-Pakistan talking points.
> 
> No one other than those Afghan nationalists considers the Durand anything but an international border. If certain Afghans wish to claim that the Durand is expired and therefore FATA and K-P are disputed, then they need to take their case to the UN or some other international body and have resolutions passed or judgments issued in their favor.
> 
> Till then they can rant about 'expired' all they want.



Agreement 
between 
His Highness Amir Abdul Rahman Khan, G.C.E.I 
Amir of Afghanistan and its Dependencies, on the one part, and Sir Henry Mortimer Durand, K.C.I.E., C.S.I.

Mar 11, 2005 ... The agreement was only for 100 years and it expired in 1993. Moreover as early as 1949, Afghanistan's Loya Jirga declared the Durand Line

September 2005, President Pervez Musharraf called for the building of a fence delineating the border, which met with opposition from Pashtuns political groups and Afghanis who view the border as illegitimate. 

For decades Afghanistan has been disputing the Durand Line with the Afghan historians claiming that the agreement expired in January 1993 after completing 100 years. 
The Unholy Durand Line


> &#8220;Kabul has refused to renew the Durand Line treaty since 1993 when it expired, "

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

prithwidw said:


> I am fine with that, are you?



With the status-quo? No I am not. 

I am fine with recognizing the 'disputed status' and resolving the dispute on lines other than the 'status-quo' demarcation, but that obviously is out of my hands.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

IBRIS said:


> Agreement
> between
> His Highness Amir Abdul Rahman Khan, G.C.E.I
> Amir of Afghanistan and its Dependencies, on the one part, and Sir Henry Mortimer Durand, K.C.I.E., C.S.I.
> 
> Mar 11, 2005 ... The agreement was only for 100 years and it expired in 1993. Moreover as early as 1949, Afghanistan's Loya Jirga declared the Durand Line
> 
> September 2005, President Pervez Musharraf called for the building of a fence delineating the border, which met with opposition from Pashtuns political groups and Afghanis who view the border as illegitimate.
> 
> For decades Afghanistan has been disputing the Durand Line with the Afghan historians claiming that the agreement expired in January 1993 after completing 100 years.
> The Unholy Durand Line



Where is the text of the Durand Agreement that references an expiration date? Preferably not from a site called the 'unholy Durand' - didn't you sense a hint of bias there?

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## prithwidw

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> With the status-quo? No I am not.
> 
> I am fine with recognizing the 'disputed status' and resolving the dispute on lines other than the 'status-quo' demarcation, but that obviously is out of my hands.



We do not recognize any disputed status. The whole of Kashmir is our land including P-O-K, as said by GoI. What do you suggest we do, to resolve this matter for ever?

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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How does the media know they were LeT instead of some other group?



Dont know.. May be Army told them based on evidences from the body..

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

prithwidw said:


> We do not recognize any disputed status. The whole of Kashmir is our land including P-O-K, as said by GoI. What do you suggest we do, to resolve this matter for ever?



There are threads that discuss ways in which the dispute could be resolved on lines other than the status-quo demarcation, I have offered my opinions there as have others.

On India's recognition, or lack of, of J&K's disputed status - the fact that Pakistan controls a third of the territory and there are pending resolutions calling for a plebiscite indicate otherwise. Just because India says so does not make it so.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Dont know.. May be Army told them based on evidences from the body..



Like LeT tattoos or name tags?

Probably not. Its likely just a move to build on India's continuing 'Pakistan is not acting against LeT' propaganda.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> FATA, Swat and Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa are not occupied and disputed territory.




- Disputed status (not recognized by GOI) does not legitimize terror attacks
- Disputed or not, its a part of India, run under the writ of Indian constitution and IA has been authorised by GOI to apprehend and kill terrorists, which they are doing. What anyone in Pakistan says has no bearing or impact on it. 
- You need to read my whole text to see the context in which I drew the parallel..

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## pakdefender

prithwidw said:


> We do not recognize any disputed status. The whole of Kashmir is our land including P-O-K, as said by GoI. *What do you suggest we do, to resolve this matter for ever*?



Go to war and settle it once and for all


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Like LeT tattoos or name tags?
> 
> Probably not. Its likely just a move to build on India's continuing 'Pakistan is not acting against LeT' propaganda.



Who cares whether it was tattoos or text or ISI propoganda material on them, or tactics or may be one of them was captured and executed after interrogation..

.. If Indians trust IA to keep us safe in India, we trust them when they say they killed 6 terrorists.. What ever any one else says, really doesnt matter to us...

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## s6demon



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## amoverlord

this discussion is going nowhere.............


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## s6demon

more of india's handywork in Kashmir


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## s6demon

amoverlord said:


> this discussion is going nowhere.............



i beg to differ, just watch that indian news report admitting that Kashmiris want nothing to do with india


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## karan.1970

s6demon said:


> more of india's handywork in Kashmir



Absolutely agree with you...

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## IBRIS

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Where is the text of the Durand Agreement that references an expiration date? Preferably not from a site called the 'unholy Durand' - didn't you sense a hint of bias there?



The British signed a document with the person of King Abdul Rahman Khan in 1893. t was to remain in force for one hundred years. It has not been revived on the deadline, which was 1993.

Sir Durand gave verbal assurance to Afghanistan that the lease will lat until 1993, but in the written agreement there is no mention of it. Otherwise just like Hong Kong, N.W.F.P would have gone back to Afghanistan in 1993.

WHY IS PAKISTAN SEEKING RENEWAL OF DURAND LINE AGREEMENT WITH AFGHANISTAN?. 
Why did KABUL denied to renew the agreement?.
PAKISTAN SEEKS RENEWAL OF DURAND LINE AGREEMENT WITH AFGHANISTAN. - AsiaPulse News | Encyclopedia.com


> ISLAMABAD, Sept 22 Asia Pulse - A senior official of the Pakistani government Wednesday dropped the border fencing proposal floated by President Musharraf but asked for renewal of the Durand Line agreement between the neighbours.
> 
> Speaking at a news conference, Governor of Pakistan's North West Frontier Province Commander Khalilur Rehman said the fencing was impracticable and unacceptable to tribal living on both sides of the divide.
> 
> Instead, the two countries should renew the Durand Line Agreement first, which had been expired, suggested the governor.

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## amoverlord

s6demon said:


> times of India, so the real story is probably that they killed 6 innocent Muslim Kashmiris and are now calling them terrorists.




there is no way to know the truth.....most probably they were terrorist (or may be not).....but what do u expect....with the violent history of kashmir...


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## s6demon

karan.1970 said:


> Absolutely agree with you...




there is only one country that takes pride in opressing and killing innocents. its name starts with "I" and ends with "ndia"


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## amoverlord

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Like LeT tattoos or name tags?
> 
> Probably not. Its likely just a move to build on India\'s continuing \'Pakistan is not acting against LeT\' propaganda.



i can ask u the same question to u on the context of fata,baloochistan?
terrorists don\'t roam with a playcard saying\"kill me,i\'m terrorist\".....


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## s6demon

amoverlord said:


> there is no way to know the truth.....most probably they were terrorist (or may be not).....but what do u expect....with the violent history of kashmir...



there is no violent history of Kashmir. find me one similar protest with indian flags and changing from Azad Kashmir.

If you rape and pillage a whole population what do you expect them to give you hugs?

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## prithwidw

pakdefender said:


> Go to war and settle it once and for all



Lol, with guys like you, who needs war


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## prithwidw

s6demon said:


> there is only one country that takes pride in opressing and killing innocents. its name starts with "I" and ends with "ndia"



I for a moment thought it was Israel 

Btw, there is also one country that takes pride in nurturing terrorists. It's name starts with 'P' and ends with 'akistan'.


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## amoverlord

s6demon said:


> there is no violent history of Kashmir. find me one similar protest with indian flags and changing from Azad Kashmir.
> 
> If you rape and pillage a whole population what do you expect them to give you hugs?




no violent history??????
then whats going on for last 25-30 years???
bombing,killing,shooting,....


about rape n other things.....i will agree to an extent.....


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## s6demon

prithwidw said:


> I for a moment thought it was Israel



make that two countries then. I dont get this, clearly SOME indian news sources see this for what it is and know and speak of this freely. and yet there are some people who just deny it outright like there is no problem in Kashmir



> Btw, there is also one country that takes pride in nurturing terrorists. It's name starts with 'P' and ends with 'akistan'.



the country with Maoist, Naxallites says WHAT?


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## karan.1970

s6demon said:


> there is only one country that takes pride in opressing and killing innocents. its name starts with "I" and ends with "ndia"



If the 6 killed today are defined as innocents in Pakistan, then again.. absolutely agree with you... I surely take pride... Kal mithai bantoonga...

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## s6demon

amoverlord said:


> no violent history??????
> then whats going on for last 25-30 years???
> bombing,killing,shooting,.....



not on our side my friend. the UN gives them the right of self determination and from that Indian news, Indians agree with that too. so then why arent you letting them go?


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## s6demon

karan.1970 said:


> If the 6 killed today are defined as innocents in Pakistan, then again.. absolutely agree with you... I surely take pride... Kal mithai bantoonga...




check out the first video. how would YOU define those people?


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## karan.1970

s6demon said:


> check out the first video. how would YOU define those people?



I dont get my news from Youtube..


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## s6demon

karan.1970 said:


> I dont get my news from Youtube..



good because youtube doesnt report news. but it has video clips of news reports.


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## s6demon

this video is of an account where a mother talks about how two of her sons were killed by the indian army and blamed to hide the truth.


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## s6demon

who moved this thread to this location and why was this thread moved? this relates to india as much as anything. 

by moving this thread to this location it says that it doesnt relate to India and just hides it from everyone in a corner of the forum where traffic is minimal.


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## karan.1970

and this proves that the ones killed today are also innocent?? With all the hoo ha going around about missing folks from Balochistan, you should know that in situations like these threre are always claims and counter claims as such. If true, that is unfortuante but unavoidable collateral damage...Just like the civilian deaths that result from American drone attacks in Pakistan which the Pakistani govt endorses...

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## s6demon

karan.1970 said:


> and this proves that the ones killed today are also innocent?? ...




no it doesnt. but it does prove that Indian army has done this in the past frequently enough that even Indian news admit the fact.


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## mrwarrior006

KASHMIR BELONGS TO INDIA 

GOOD ONE SOLDIERS

KILL THESE TERRORISTS


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## DESERT FIGHTER

mrwarrior006 said:


> KASHMIR BELONGS TO INDIA
> 
> GOOD ONE SOLDIERS
> 
> KILL THESE TERRORISTS



If we go on ur opinion then
PIGS ARE THE MOST HYGENIC ANIMALS
COWS CAN FLY
INDIANS LIVE ON THE MOON
MONKEY TURN INTO SUPER KING KONGS AT NIGHT AND CLIMB BUILDINGS WITH EASE.
UN AND WHOLE WORLD IS STUPID.

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## amoverlord

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> If we go on ur opinion then
> PIGS ARE THE MOST HYGENIC ANIMALS
> COWS CAN FLY
> INDIANS LIVE ON THE MOON
> MONKEY TURN INTO SUPER KING KONGS AT NIGHT AND CLIMB BUILDINGS WITH EASE.
> UN AND WHOLE WORLD IS STUPID.



arey.....jo mere pas hai wo mera hai(nahi to kya apka hai)
marenge nahi to kya sar pe bithaenge terrorists(oh! freedomfighters) ko......


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## DESERT FIGHTER

amoverlord said:


> arey.....jo mere pas hai wo mera hai(nahi to kya apka hai)
> marenge nahi to kya sar pe bithaenge terrorists(oh! freedomfighters) ko......


We should have not have pulled our army back in 48 from ladakh and other parts when nehru was lying in UN.
What a shame even after more then half a decade kashmiris have preserved there identity and are fighting occuping inhumane forces?
Etc.

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## s6demon

mrwarrior006 said:


> KASHMIR BELONGS TO INDIA




not according to the whole world and the Kashmiris themselvs. hell even some educated Indians.

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## amoverlord

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> We should have not have pulled our army back in 48 from ladakh and other parts when nehru was lying in UN.
> What a shame even after more then half a decade kashmiris have preserved there identity and are fighting occuping inhumane forces?
> Etc.




lets not go into the past......
ok...what do u suggest we should do,to solve this matter....pakistan will always say kasmiris want freedom,only a fraction don\'t want....n india will say no,only a fraction wants....pakistan will say freedomfighter,india will say terrorist....


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## thebrownguy

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> We should have not have pulled our army back in 48 from ladakh and other parts when nehru was lying in UN.
> What a shame even after more then half a decade kashmiris have preserved there identity and are fighting occuping inhumane forces?
> Etc.



Ok buddy enough! Let me break it down for you. Its very simple, not that difficult to understand. Kashmir is a part of our country, and we don't need your approval regarding this.

Heck we don't need the Kashmiri people's opinion about this. Opinion of a small number of separatists is not important for this nation of over 1.2 billion Indians. 

Any sort of insurgency will be considered as terrorism and as an attack on the nation, and will b dealt with in the same way. 
They may pelt stones every week on a selected day, it does not matter. They may shout anti india slogans, it does not matter.
Its their choice, if they want to chuck stones their entire life, ruin their kid's futures, and restrict development of the area by such protests, or supporting terrorism, its their choice, and their loss. Azadi toh kabhi milni hai nahi!!

We have the preparation to counter it all, it does not bleed our economy anymore.
No matter how many insurgents we kill, may it be 1000000 more, we will do it , but we will not let our country break.
Give up this dream buddy! On what basis are your hopes resting? Get real, it ain't going to happen!!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

amoverlord said:


> lets not go into the past......
> ok...what do u suggest we should do,to solve this matter....pakistan will always say kasmiris want freedom,only a fraction don\'t want....n india will say no,only a fraction wants....pakistan will say freedomfighter,india will say terrorist....



Simple buddy let Kashmiris decide what the want?


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## Chiru

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> We should have not have pulled our army back in 48 from ladakh and other parts when nehru was lying in UN.
> What a shame even after more then half a decade kashmiris have preserved there identity and are fighting occuping inhumane forces?
> Etc.



If not pulled, same thing would have been happened like kargil.
Troops would have starved to death without supply. 
You need to remember India could have settled everything with pakistan after its complete defeat in 1971 war. There were like 100k POW and complete surrender. 

I believe it your time to sleep.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

hey brown since 60+ years have u integrated them into main stream indian nationalism?
Have u called of ur more then half a million force?
Have u stopped regular protests and Pakistani flag hoisting?
If not its still time to be mature.
Chinese took hong kong from brits and macau from the portugees even after century without war......
What make u think u can occupy them forever?


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## amoverlord

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Simple buddy let Kashmiris decide what the want?



well...such a simple answer....
ok how do u suggest we do it?(n why?)


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Chiru said:


> If not pulled, same thing would have been happened like kargil.
> Troops would have starved to death without supply.
> You need to remember India could have settled everything with pakistan after its complete defeat in 1971 war. There were like 100k POW and complete surrender.
> 
> I believe it your time to sleep.



HAHAHA Then where was the might indian force backed by 18 ordinance factories and all the industrial might and financial sources in 48?while u were asking UN for cease fire?
In 71 it was a civil war thousands of miles from main land,a super power supporting you with everything to jets to moral bosting and dont forget u lost AIR WARS?
Could u have succeeded on ur own?if there was no civil war,mukti bhai and ur ****** proxy???
About kargil buddy how many indians died there and didnt u guys run out of coffins?


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## amoverlord

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> hey brown since 60+ years have u integrated them into main stream indian nationalism?
> Have u called of ur more then half a million force?
> Have u stopped regular protests and Pakistani flag hoisting?
> If not its still time to be mature.
> Chinese took hong kong from brits and macau from the portugees even after century without war......
> What make u think u can occupy them forever?



india is not china(india is too diverse).....do u think GOI likes, that its spending so much money n resources on kasmir...do u think this situation is benefiting india.....


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## amoverlord

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> HAHAHA Then where was the might indian force backed by 18 ordinance factories and all the industrial might and financial sources in 48?while u were asking UN for cease fire?
> In 71 it was a civil war thousands of miles from main land,a super power supporting you with everything to jets to moral bosting and dont forget u lost AIR WARS?
> Could u have succeeded on ur own?if there was no civil war,mukti bhai and ur ****** proxy???
> About kargil buddy how many indians died there and didnt u guys run out of coffins?




laugh,,as much u want...but bottom line is...u gained nothing in those wars n lost more....anyway lets not discuss the past.....lets argue not fight...


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## Chiru

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> HAHAHA Then where was the might indian force backed by 18 ordinance factories and all the industrial might and financial sources in 48?while u were asking UN for cease fire?
> In 71 it was a civil war thousands of miles from main land,a super power supporting you with everything to jets to moral bosting and dont forget u lost AIR WARS?
> Could u have succeeded on ur own?if there was no civil war,mukti bhai and ur ****** proxy???
> About kargil buddy how many indians died there and didnt u guys run out of coffins?



We are stupid and lost golden opportunity to settle everything after complete defeat of pakistan and surrender.

I don't argue with you if you think pak won 71 air war. May be won on stone pelting contest


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## thebrownguy

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> hey brown since 60+ years have u integrated them into main stream indian nationalism?
> Have u called of ur more then half a million force?
> Have u stopped regular protests and Pakistani flag hoisting?
> If not its still time to be mature.
> Chinese took hong kong from brits and macau from the portugees even after century without war......
> What make u think u can occupy them forever?



I know we will not let them break away because i am thinking in a more practical manner. 
Its very simple, they are complaing of human right violations and oppression by army right?
Was it always like this? They are choosing their own fate by such separatist protests and supporting insurgency. 
Things changed since 1989 buddy. To crush any rebellion, the army can't go by the books, we both are sensible enough to understand that. 
what is the goverment depriving them of that they want Azadi? Multi million dollar development packages have been drafted for Kashmir, but its all to waste as these people do not let any development happen?
They have a right to vote and choose their representative in the government apparatus. 
They have special laws and special reservations in schools, colleges, jobs!!
The azadi claims are just on being ethnic or religious grounds,not because of any sort of oppression!! (mind you the so called oppression started after 1989)
Like i said , let them wave pakistani flags and throw stones over choosing a better life for themselves and their future generations, its their choice to make. We have made ours.

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## Cityboy

Great. .this operation done by J and K police with the help of army. . All inteligence tips coming from local ppl as this encounter also has. .kill all terrorists. . I am happy dat local jammu and kashmir police doing a great job. .thanks to great kashmiri ppl for giving regular tips abt terrorists.


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## s6demon

Maulik said:


> thanks to great kashmiri ppl for giving regular tips abt terrorists.




yes thanks to THESE people for giving tips. I cannot believe how inhumane your army is.


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## FreekiN

Must be pretty easy for the Indians to kill innocents, put a gun next to the dead body, then label it a terrorist from Pakistan's side. 

We all know they are pro's at it now.


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## thebrownguy

FreekiN said:


> Must be pretty easy for the Indians to kill innocents, put a gun next to the dead body, then label it a terrorist from Pakistan's side.
> 
> We all know they are pro's at it now.



Its easier to to make that sort of an accusation without any logic.
Can you please explain what will the army/J&K police gain by doing that?
I am not implying that they are angels and have not done anything wrong. To crush armed struggles, rights have to be twisted and broken, that is unfortunately the harsh reality.


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## FreekiN

> *Six Pakistani terrorists killed in Kashmir*
> 
> Jammu: Six Pakistani terrorists belonging to the Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) were killed in a fierce gunfight in Jammu and Kashmir's Rajouri district on Thursday.
> The terrorists died when soldiers and policemen raided their hideout in Kalakote area, 200 km north of Jammu.
> "All of them are Pakistanis and belong to Lashkar," Senior Superintendent of Police Shafkat Watali told IANS on telephone from Rajouri.
> "This is one of the biggest achievements of the security forces against militants," he said.
> This was the second gun battle in the area in three days.
> The Indian Army has stepped up its vigil along the Line of Control (LoC), which divides Kashmir between India and Paksitan, to foil infiltration by terrorists from Pakistan."



Six Pakistani terrorists? Hmm. How do we know they are Pakistani? ID Cards, nametags, etc? Yes, because a terrorist would be running around with a nametag on his shirt, right? 

*Because a Kashmiri on the Indian side would never join a resistance force in his right mind*, right?

Because LeT is apparently the only operating resistance group in the region, right? 

Mr. Watali was quick to come to the conclusion that any rebel in Kashmir, is Pakistani. 

We all know Kashmir hates India, wants nothing to do with Hindu's or their country, and have been endlessly oppressed and murdered only to be blanketed by large and small scale cover-ups to hide the truth.

This report is obviously highly-biased propaganda to continue the anti-Pakistan agenda of the Indian government. But hey, India is not the only country in the world using fake 'terror' to get the support of it's gullible citizens.

It's about time for the real Mujahideen to unleash a shitload of azz-whoopage onto India, just like they did to your big brother, Russia.


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## thebrownguy

FreekiN said:


> Six Pakistani terrorists? Hmm. How do we know they are Pakistani? ID Cards, nametags, etc? Yes, because a terrorist would be running around with a nametag on his shirt, right?
> 
> *Because a Kashmiri on the Indian side would never join a resistance force in his right mind*, right?
> 
> Because LeT is apparently the only operating resistance group in the region, right?
> 
> Mr. Watali was quick to come to the conclusion that any rebel in Kashmir, is Pakistani.
> 
> We all know Kashmir hates India, wants nothing to do with Hindu's or their country, and have been endlessly oppressed and murdered only to be blanketed by large and small scale cover-ups to hide the truth.
> 
> This report is obviously highly-biased propaganda to continue the anti-Pakistan agenda of the Indian government. But hey, India is not the only country in the world using fake 'terror' to get the support of it's gullible citizens.
> 
> It's about time for the real Mujahideen to unleash a shitload of azz-whoopage onto India, just like they did to your big brother, Russia.



Dude I thought you though ouside the brackets of "jihads" and "mujahideens". Not you too!
Anyways, dream on!!


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## FreekiN

thebrownguy said:


> Dude I thought you though ouside the brackets of "jihads" and "mujahideens". Not you too!
> Anyways, dream on!!



Dream on about what? The inevitable?

Dude, I thought you would have an idea about what Jihad really is or at least the definition of it.

Jihad, an Islamic term, is a religious *duty* of Muslims. 
A person engaged in jihad is called a mujahid, the plural is mujahideen.

Now let's get to what Jihad means in the context that we are using it:

In classical Islamic jurisprudence jihad consists of warfare with the aim of expansion and defence of Islamic territory.

Now seeing that Kashmir is majority Muslim, it automatically gets considered as a Islamic territory, so we will fight *forever* until the Muslim-majority lands are freed. 

Got that?

Alright, now let me teach you why treating innocent Muslims will get India stuck in a pile of ****:

Ummah is the concept of a Muslim brotherhood where every single Muslim is equal, and no other Muslim is better than the other. And when a group of fellow Muslims is stuck in a calamity, a brother must do everything and anything he/she can to liberate them. The calamity can be poverty or a natural disaster or even a war, etc.

_"O People! Your God is one; your father is one; no preference of an Arab neither over non-Arab nor of a non-Arab over an Arab or red over black or black over red except for the most righteous. Verily the most honored of you is the most righteous." - Prophet Mohammed [pbuh]_

EX. Afghan resistance against Soviets. Muslims from all over the world, from Morocco to the Philippines arrived in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets, and eventually they won.

EX. Zakaat: Obligatory tax from all privileged Muslims to the poorer ones.

I hope you learned something about why we will never give up to free Kashmir from unbeliever hands. Same goes for occupied Palestine. 

Thanks.


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## s6demon

thebrownguy said:


> Its easier to to make that sort of an accusation without any logic.
> Can you please explain what will the army/J&K police gain by doing that?




you mean without any proof, and I posted a video where they did just that. just go through the first two pages and there is a video of the indian army shooting some random guy on the street.

what they are want to achieve is to supress the kashmiri independence movement. the kashmiris dont want to be part of india because they are not indian. and the brutal methods are used to keep them quiet because if they dont shut up and take commands from delhi, they get killed.


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## EjazR

In every operation the local J&K police is involved so that innocents are not targeted. If even a innocent is injured, there will be a huge protest and backlash for the security forces and that is why this is most likely Pakistani infiltrators. See this in the backdrop of LeT heads in Pakistan saying that 2009 has been the best year for them in a decade.

Anyways, here is a report quoting the J&K police official which shows that the LOCALS provided intelligence inputs and then the local police along with the IA fought invaders and militants before they could kill innocents civilians or politicians who don't know tow to the UJC.


*Six Pakistani LeT terrorists killed in Kashmir*
The Indian Army and the Jammu and Kashmir police Thursday achieved a major success, killing six Pakistani terrorists belonging to the Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) in a four-hour long gun battle in Rajouri district of the state.

The army had to use its paratroopers to neutralise the terrorists, hiding in forests of Baghla in in Kalakote area of the district, 200 km north of Jammu.

A police spokesman said that the gunfight broke out around 1 p.m. after the militants, asked to surrender, opened fire on the security forces.

'The terrorists also lobbed grenades at the security personnel. The fire was returned,' he said.

*Rajouri Senior Superintendent of Police Shafkat Watali told IANS over phone that the killing of six terrorists is a 'big success for the security forces and a big blow to the LeT'.*

The six terrorists are suspected to be part of a group of infiltrators that had crossed over to India early this week.

This was the second gun battle with the militants in Kalakote area in the past three days. Four terrorists and three soldiers were killed Wednesday after an 18-hour gun battle, which started Tuesday evening in Kandi area in the forests of Rajouri.

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## EjazR

*Raging gunfights in Rajouri | Greater Kashmir Daily English Newspaper*

*SHAFIQ MIR*

Rajouri, Apr 1: The toll in the Rajouri gunfights mounted to 18 with the killing of six more militants in a fresh encounter on Thursday, police said.
&#8220;Seven militants and five troopers were killed in separate gunfights in this frontier district till yesterday,&#8221; a police official told Greater Kashmir.
*Giving details of today&#8217;s encounter he said, &#8220;Troopers of 60 Rashtriya Rifles assisted by police launched searches at the Khabbar top forest area in Kalakote this afternoon. Militants present there opened fire on the search party which was retaliated triggering an encounter.&#8221;*
&#8220;In the ensuing gunfight,&#8221; he said, six more militants were killed Thursday.
He said killed militants, 3-days ago, had escaped from Triyath forest after a brief encounter in which a trooper had been killed and Station House Officer (SHO) of Daramshal Police Station, Showkat Ali was injured.
*&#8220;This was the same group of Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) militants, who had infiltrated from Pallanwala belt of Akhnoor sector on March 23. Two militants of this group were killed in Dharamshal area on Saturday last while four militants and were killed yesterday in Kandi Bhudal belt of Rajouri district,&#8221; he added.*
Sources said that two more gunfights were on in Kandi and Dharamsal areas of Rajouri district.
*
VDC MEMBER REPULSES ATTACK*
Meanwhile, police claimed that Village Defence Committee (VDC) member repulsed a militant attack on his house in Rajouri district this morning.
&#8220;A group of militants attacked the house of Raj Kumar in village Daroti. When Kumar did not open the door, the militants resorted to indiscriminate firing which was retaliated by the VDC member. The intermittent exchange of fire continued for about an hour. Militants later escaped,&#8221; a police official added.


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## thebrownguy

FreekiN said:


> Dream on about what? The inevitable?
> 
> Dude, I thought you would have an idea about what Jihad really is or at least the definition of it.
> 
> Jihad, an Islamic term, is a religious *duty* of Muslims.
> A person engaged in jihad is called a mujahid, the plural is mujahideen.
> 
> Now let's get to what Jihad means in the context that we are using it:
> 
> In classical Islamic jurisprudence jihad consists of warfare with the aim of expansion and defence of Islamic territory.
> 
> Now seeing that Kashmir is majority Muslim, it automatically gets considered as a Islamic territory, so we will fight *forever* until the Muslim-majority lands are freed.
> 
> Got that?
> 
> Alright, now let me teach you why treating innocent Muslims will get India stuck in a pile of ****:
> 
> Ummah is the concept of a Muslim brotherhood where every single Muslim is equal, and no other Muslim is better than the other. And when a group of fellow Muslims is stuck in a calamity, a brother must do everything and anything he/she can to liberate them. The calamity can be poverty or a natural disaster or even a war, etc.
> 
> _"O People! Your God is one; your father is one; no preference of an Arab neither over non-Arab nor of a non-Arab over an Arab or red over black or black over red except for the most righteous. Verily the most honored of you is the most righteous." - Prophet Mohammed [pbuh]_
> 
> EX. Afghan resistance against Soviets. Muslims from all over the world, from Morocco to the Philippines arrived in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets, and eventually they won.
> 
> EX. Zakaat: Obligatory tax from all privileged Muslims to the poorer ones.
> 
> I hope you learned something about why we will never give up to free Kashmir from unbeliever hands. Same goes for occupied Palestine.
> 
> Thanks.



Bro,lets not give violent twists to meaning of Jihad,and link armed struggles to it. Anyways i would like to leave this discussion of religion and ummah and jihad right here, discussing religion makes no sense,

For you its about your religious duty, while i am driven by nationalism, which does not allow me to ever think about my country breaking. On what basis is separatism justified? Army oppression? All that started when the Kashmiris picked up arms against the country which rescued them from tribal invaders in 1947.


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## FreekiN

*Fourteen killed in India Kashmir clashes*

(Reuters) - Four Indian soldiers and 10 separatist guerrillas were killed in clashes in Kashmir, the highest number of people killed in firefights in 24 hours in recent months, the army said Thursday.

The new fighting comes amid Indian fears of an escalation in rebel violence in the disputed Himalayan region after a period of relative calm.

The Indian army says Pakistan-based militant groups have stepped up efforts to infiltrate the region after snow started melting on the high mountain passes.

Wednesday, four Indian soldiers and four militants were killed in a gun battle in the Rajouri district, which lies in south Kashmir near the Line of Control, a military line which divides Kashmir between India and Pakistan.

Indian army spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Biplab Nath said Thursday that "six terrorists were killed in another fierce encounter in Rajouri."

Nuclear-armed rivals India and Pakistan claim the region in full but rule in part and have fought two wars over it.

The Indian army says it has stepped up its vigil along the Line of Control to thwart infiltrations as hundreds of militants are waiting in the Pakistani part of Kashmir to enter into India.

At the weekend troops shot dead six militants as they tried to cross into India, the third such infiltration attempt to be foiled in a week, the army said.


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## EjazR

*Kashmiri separatists feud for supremacy - The National Newspaper*

SRINAGAR, INDIA // The Kashmiri separatist leadership is in disarray and an ongoing struggle for supremacy between factions turned uglier last month when the supporters of at least two of the major players clashed on the streets of Sopore town.

The developments come amid speculation that Saudi Arabia could assume the role of mediator between India and Pakistan, including the dispute over Kashmir.

Supporters of Syed Ali Shah Geelani, the octogenarian leader of the Islamist Tehrik-e-Hurriyat (TeH) party, allegedly set upon those of Muhammad Yasin Malik, the chairman of his faction of the Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF), on March 14 in Sopore, 50km north of the capital, Srinagar.

Mr Malik&#8217;s group had spent the day distributing cash to locals, whose houses had been damaged in previous violence between militants and the Indian army.

Analysts say the TeH viewed that as a provocative attempt by the JKLF to win support in Sopore, which is a TeH stronghold.

According to witnesses, Mr Geelani&#8217;s supporters attacked the JKLF members with knives and stones, injuring five. Locals, who said the police did not intervene, chased the attackers away. The following day JKLF members ransacked a TeH office in Srinagar in retribution.

The JKLF seeks reunification of the disputed Himalayan state, which was split between India and Pakistan in the aftermath of their first war fought in 1947-48 soon after gaining independence from Britain, and wants to make it a secular, independent country. Mr Geelani, on the other hand, vows to integrate Kashmir with Muslim Pakistan.

Amid the two sides exchanging insults and accusations, Syed Salahuddin, the Pakistan-based leader of the United Jihad Council, an alliance of militant groups, warned the leaders to either resolve their differences or quit.

&#8220;If the pro-freedom leadership doesn&#8217;t mend its ways, the people and the mujahideen will be forced to take the reins of the movement into their hands to carry it forward,&#8221; he said in a statement from Rawalpindi.

The dispute in the separatists&#8217; camps has resurfaced at a time when Indians and Pakistanis are trying to narrow their differences on a range of issues, particularly Kashmir. 

Meetings between the two countries&#8217; foreign secretaries held at the end of February ended fruitlessly, with New Delhi continuing to publicly voice concern over Islamabad&#8217;s &#8220;inaction against perpetrators of the Mumbai attacks&#8221;.

Simultaneously, New Delhi is holding private talks with a segment of the Kashmiri politicians, whereas Pakistan has invited half a dozen separatist leaders for consultations in Islamabad in an apparent attempt to fortify their respective positions and prepare the Kashmiris to accept a prospective settlement. 

The Kashmir dispute has led to two wars since 1947 and taken tens of thousands of lives, mainly during the 20-year insurgency on the Indian side of the state.

Before heading for Islamabad, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Kashmir&#8217;s chief Muslim cleric and leader of the Hurriyat (Freedom) Conference, an alliance of separatist parties, held talks with Saudi officials in Jeddah. His visit to Saudi Arabia came close on the heels of a visit by the Indian prime minister, Manmohan Singh, during which the country&#8217;s junior foreign minister, Shashi Tharoor, said Saudi Arabia could be a &#8220;valuable interlocutor&#8221; between India and Pakistan on the issue of Kashmir.

&#8220;We feel that Saudi Arabia of course has a long and close relationship with Pakistan but that makes Saudi Arabia an even more valuable interlocutor for us,&#8221; he was quoted by the Indian media as saying. But Mr Tharoor later clarified that he did not mean that Saudi Arabia should be a mediator between India and Pakistan.

Nevertheless, his initial remarks led to speculation in Kashmir that apart from the United States, Saudi Arabia is playing some role towards bringing the two South Asian neighbours closer, or, at least, helping them in ironing out their differences.

In any case, Mr Farooq sees a policy shift in India vis-&#224;-vis third-party mediation in Indo-Pak dialogue. 

He told the Jeddah daily Arab News, &#8220;Currently a rethink is going on in India. Given the strengthening of ties between India and the Kingdom, New Delhi would be more comfortable with Saudi mediation than any other country.&#8221; 

He added that Saudi Arabia was influential not only in the Middle East but also in South Asia.

&#8220;The kingdom has a history of playing positive role in disputes, such as Afghanistan and Palestine. Kashmiris would be more than happy if the kingdom mediated on our behalf,&#8221; he said. 

India has, so far, not responded to Mr Farooq&#8217;s observations although it has consistently rejected third-party mediation in the past. 

Pakistan too has not dismissed his suggestion that Saudi Arabia could play a role in resolving the contentious Kashmir issue.

Apparently encouraged by the possibility of Saudi mediation, Mr Farooq is planning to send a delegation of Kashmiri leaders to Saudi Arabia within a month to hold talks with the Saudi officials. 

&#8220;Already, we in the Hurriyat Conference are discussing on how to seek Saudi help &#8230; [we] will work out a concrete plan before approaching them formally,&#8221; he said. 

Mr Farooq&#8217;s Hurriyat Conference called the recent attack on Yasin Malik&#8217;s supporters at Sopore &#8220;fascist&#8221;, admitting that such a behaviour on part of &#8220;certain elements&#8221; could prove detrimental to the separatists&#8217; cause.

&#8220;The people of Kashmir are passing through the most crucial stage of the resistance movement,&#8221; said Masroor Abas, the leader of Itehad al Muslimeen, an Islamist group that is part of Mr Farooq&#8217;s Hurriyat Conference. 

&#8220;Our leadership ought to rise above party politics and recoil from personal agendas. Incidents like Sopore can only leave negative hoofmarks on our cause.&#8221;


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## thebrownguy

FreekiN said:


> Six Pakistani terrorists? Hmm. How do we know they are Pakistani? ID Cards, nametags, etc? Yes, because a terrorist would be running around with a nametag on his shirt, right?
> 
> *Because a Kashmiri on the Indian side would never join a resistance force in his right mind*, right?
> 
> Because LeT is apparently the only operating resistance group in the region, right?
> 
> Mr. Watali was quick to come to the conclusion that any rebel in Kashmir, is Pakistani.
> 
> We all know Kashmir hates India, wants nothing to do with Hindu's or their country, and have been endlessly oppressed and murdered only to be blanketed by large and small scale cover-ups to hide the truth.
> 
> This report is obviously highly-biased propaganda to continue the anti-Pakistan agenda of the Indian government. But hey, India is not the only country in the world using fake 'terror' to get the support of it's gullible citizens.
> 
> It's about time for the real Mujahideen to unleash a shitload of azz-whoopage onto India, just like they did to your big brother, Russia.



And dude,so much for Ummah when many of islamic counties are allies with US and have established peace with Israel.
I am not mocking you on anything, just that i am willing to discuss or debate based on facts and current events and not hoping for the future.


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## EjazR

*Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - Police launch goodwill campaign*

Wasim Khalid
Srinagar, March 31: For the moment, police will put canes and tear smoke canisters aside and as part of improving its image, police would approach students and teenage youth of the city with &#8220;compassion and magnanimity&#8221; and take them on tours to bewitching flower gardens to win over their hearts.

City police has decided to take the youth, especially students for special tours to gardens, parks and places of historical importance to change their &#8220;perceived mindset&#8221; against the police.

To begin with, city police started the process from the stone pelting heartland of the Valley - old city. At least 120 students of old city were taken by police to Tulip Garden and Botanical Garden for recreational purpose on Wednesday. Police arranged the tickets, transport and refreshment for the students.

SSP City, Javed Riyaz said they kick-started the process from MPML Higher Secondary School, Bagh-i-Dilwar Khan, wherefrom students and teachers were taken to the Tulip Garden.

Riyaz had a special reason to begin from MPML School. &#8220;I chose MPML as I too have remained the student of that school.&#8221;

Riyaz along with Director Education Shugufta Parveen flagged off the first batch of students to the Tulip Garden and Botanical Garden.

&#8220;We want students to feel the beauty of colorful flowers, refreshing air blowing from the mesmerizing Dal Lake and the mountains in the backdrop,&#8221; Riyaz said. &#8220;This will at least inspire them to think something new, generate new ideas. It will thus revitalize them and they will open up and do better things in future.&#8221;

He said the &#8220;abnormal conditions&#8221; prevailing in the Valley had left a deep scar on the children&#8217;s psyche.

&#8220;Youth will enjoy the beauty of Kashmir during the tours,&#8221; SSP said. &#8220;The recreational activity will give them a break to think and act.&#8221;

Police in Srinagar is struggling to keep its image among the public due to highhandedness during stone pelting incidents, protests and demonstrations.

The raining of batons, firing tear smoke canisters, random arrests, slapping PSAs have severely dented the police-public relationship.

&#8220;There is a particular mindset among the people about the police. Some are upset,&#8221; he said. &#8220;We want to reach out to them. To change that frame of mind, to show them police is benevolent.&#8221;

The SSP said, in the first phase, government schools would be taken to flower gardens.

&#8220;Later on we will take teenage youth working in small factories and shops to gardens and other places,&#8221; Riyaz said. &#8220;The tours will not be restricted to city only. At later stages we will send youth to famous picnic spots of the Valley.&#8221; 

The flower diplomacy seems to be working. &#8220;It has been my first trip to tulip garden,&#8221; a student said. &#8220;I&#8217;m amazed to see the beauty bestowed by the nature to our city.&#8221;

There have been constant efforts from government to improve the waning image of police among public. Police had already started taking youth in Islamabad area to tours for recreational purposes.


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## FreekiN

thebrownguy said:


> And dude,so much for Ummah when many of islamic counties are allies with US and have established peace with Israel.
> I am not mocking you on anything, just that i am willing to discuss or debate based on facts and current events and not hoping for the future.



I know that and I was going to include it in my above post, but I was like naaahhh.

Saudi Arabia and Egypt are the biggest traitors I can think of.

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## HariSeldon

So as per PK members. India has occupied the JK illegally and operssing the local populance. Whats your own record bro. Those you killed and raped were your own brother and sister. THey decided to be part of PK and you drove them to point where they have to fight with you to get separate nation. All that happened aside, PA butured and raped the same citizens the were supposed to protect. 
And now in Baluchistan, This is not disputed terrotiry, still there is killing of ppl at the hands of PA is happeing.

As they say " If you live in glass house, don't throw stones at other house".
If you have proof that those killed are innocent, bring them forward. Don't rant just sake for it.
PS: If you have notice one of Jawans was killed in this encounter. So what was this, they killed there own to make this look credible?


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## gowthamraj

18 death of terrorists in one week  

flushing out of the terrorists is the main work for j&k police(only kashmir people able to join j&k police)


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## karan.1970

s6demon said:


> no it doesnt. but it does prove that Indian army has done this in the past frequently enough that even Indian news admit the fact.



Too bad.. Dont need to justify the actions of IA within India to anyone

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## IMADreamer

*Separatist militants have blown up a section of railway track in Indian-administered Kashmir, the police say.

No trains were running when the militants detonated an improvised explosive device on the tracks near Pulwama. There were no casualties.

Train services between Srinagar and Qazigund have been suspended.
*
This is the first time militants have targeted the railway in the valley since the opening of a train service in the valley last year.

Railway authorities say the track is likely to be restored by Friday afternoon.

Violence has declined in Kashmir in recent years, but there are fears the militants are now trying to regroup.

Hundreds of thousands of Indian troops are based in Indian-administered Kashmir to fight a two decade-old insurgency against Indian rule. 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8600369.stm

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## ejaz007

*Six rebels killed in H-Kashmir* 
Updated at: 1000 PST, Friday, April 02, 2010 


SRINAGAR: Indian troops shot dead six suspected militants in held Kashmir, police said Friday, as rebels blew up train tracks. 

The militants were killed during a fierce gunbattle in Rajouri district on Thursday, a police spokesman said, adding that the fighting erupted after Indian troops launched a "cordon and search" operation.

Meanwhile, suspected militants blew up part of the railway connecting Baramulla town in the north with the southern town of Qazigund on Thursday, the spokesman said. The track was targeted near Kakapora village, about 40 kilometers (25 miles) south of the Kashmiri summer capital of Srinagar. 

"Two to three metres of railway track were damaged by the blast caused by an improvised explosive device (IED). The track is being restored shortly," the spokesman said. 

Six rebels killed in H-Kashmir


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## mrwarrior006

death to terrorists no mercy


n1 n1

bravo bravo soldiers

keeep emmmm coming

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## Bang Galore

FreekiN said:


> Must be pretty easy for the Indians to kill innocents, put a gun next to the dead body, then label it a terrorist from Pakistan's side.
> 
> We all know they are pro's at it now.



Yeah, but there are four dead Indian soldiers to make it a little difficult to sell that version.



FreekiN said:


> *It's about time for the real Mujahideen to unleash a shitload of azz-whoopage onto India, just like they did to your big brother, Russia.*



Of all the comments i have heard on this forum, this one must rank among the worst. Are you actually asking for mass murder to be committed in India like it was done on the Russian underground? Are you the same person who was calling the Saudis backward on another thread because they wanted to behead one guy? Guess your concern for humanity does not extend to Indians.

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## Cityboy

They r terrorist against humanity.. In this week 15 terrorist killed by jammu and kashmir police with inteligence tips from local kashmiri ppl.


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## Spitfighter

Things are really starting to pick up in Kashmir again. I don't know if its bad timing or because of our sour relations with Pakistan, but I think our relations are about to hit a new low.


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## Mirza Jatt

FreekiN said:


> Must be pretty easy for the Indians to kill innocents, put a gun next to the dead body, then label it a terrorist from Pakistan's side. .



Hmm...interesting to hear that,but can you tell me how come there are retalliations through gunfire when the merciless,cruel,anti human Indian army fires upon these innocent,peace loving creatures???

Hmm..probably the bullets and the sophisticated modern rifles,Ak-47s and the grenades drop from heaven in their handbags.and a divine power trains them within minutes to use these weapons so that they can save themselves from these cruel army.

so true !!



> We all know they are pro's at it now.



yeah ! thats what we say.....they are pros at it now..both the terrorists at trying to infiltrate and ofcourse the Indian army at what they know best...welcome them with shots on their foreheads

six militants this time...great work !! need more.


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## karan.1970

And while we were argueing here, the Indian Army and J&K Police despatched 2 more terrorists to meet their maker.. I wonder if all these terrorists and the ones being killed in NWFP and Afghanistan are getting together in hell and having a party 




Rajouri: 2 more terrorists killed in encounter

Two Lashkar-e-Toiba militants were killed in a gunbattle with security forces in Rajouri district on Friday.

Acting on a tip off about the movement of militants in Kanthole Gundi-Darrutelna in Kalakote, 130 kms from here, police assisted by Rashtriya Rifle and CRPF personnel launched a cordon operation.

An encounter soon broke out around 0830 hrs in which two militants have been killed, police said.

Both of them are Pakistanis and believed to be a part of the group that infiltrated from across the border in Akhnoor on March 23.

With Friday's killing, 14 militants have been killed in the past one week in Rajouri district. All the slain militants belong to LeT.

Six LeT militants of Pakistani origin, who had escaped from Triyath forest after a brief encounter three days ago, were killed by security forces in Rajouri district on Thursday.

A search team of police assisted by army, special operation group (SoG) and CRPF tracked down the militants who had escaped from Triyath forest on March 30 following a brief encounter with the security personnel.

A jawan had been killed and Station House Officer of Daramshal Police Station Inspector Showkat Ali was injured in that incident.

Two militants of this group were killed in Dharamshal area on Saturday last while four were killed in Kandi Bhudal belt of Rajouri district on Wednesday.


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## Mirza Jatt

@ karan - wah karan bai..dil khush kar ditta...kya news sunai hai...jiyo...kitne ho gaye total?? 14 ?? hhmm..i just said in my last post..we need more and here you are with the news of two more..god is listening..

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## kugga

Why all Indians and Pakistanis are claiming Kashmir...... In my point of view Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris and they should decide what they want........

In that regard UN resolutions are quite justified coz they ask Kashmiris to decide what they want...... BTW UN resolutions are because India wanted UN to resolve the Kashmir issue........

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## s6demon

karan.1970 said:


> Too bad.. Dont need to justify the actions of IA within India to anyone




well you cant justify rape and murder, my friend.


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## s6demon

here is further entertainment for our Indian friends.


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## mrwarrior006

*@s6demon*


> well you cant justify rape and murder, my friend.




by anyone he meant one who is not indian


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## Bang Galore

s6demon said:


> here is further entertainment for our Indian friends.



You know, that's a bit rich coming from a country that uses heavy artillery to fight a counter insurgency campaign. Have you ever heard of India displacing large nos. of civilians as a method of fighting insurgency. The Kashmir issue would have been settled in 6 months if India had done that. Forcibly relocating every Kashmiri outside Kashmir like you have done to your people would have been a easy way out so please remember your own record of fighting COIN campaigns before you start pointing fingers at us. You have used gunships and artillery as a matter of routine and have laid waste to entire areas to get to the taliban. You won't find many of those type of incidents in Kashmir or anywhere else.
See what happens to the Hurriyat leaders. They get protection from the government which they then use to say whatever they want to say without worrying about the consequences. Does that happen in Pakistan? Your favourite Hurriyat leader Syed Shah Gilani spends half his time in Delhi being treated at our hospitals as does Yasin Malik and then returns to Kashmir and says whatever he wants. Tell me about anything remotely similar which happens in Pakistan.

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## Jade

FreekiN said:


> *Because a Kashmiri on the Indian side would never join a resistance force in his right mind*, right?



Yes, some Kashmiris are brainwashed to join the resistance force



FreekiN said:


> [We all know Kashmir hates India, wants nothing to do with Hindu's or their country, and have been endlessly oppressed and murdered only to be blanketed by large and small scale cover-ups to hide the truth.



India is not a Hindu country. remember, it is home to second largest Muslim population on the earth



FreekiN said:


> This report is obviously highly-biased propaganda to continue the anti-Pakistan agenda of the Indian government. But hey, India is not the only country in the world using fake 'terror' to get the support of it's gullible citizens.



Everything in Pakistan is anti India be its military doctrines or its foreign policy and not the other way round. 



FreekiN said:


> It's about time for the real Mujahideen to unleash a shitload of azz-whoopage onto India, just like they did to your big brother, Russia.



That can happen only in dreams because terrorists doesnt enjoy popular support in Kashmir.


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## Jade

FreekiN said:


> Dream on about what? The inevitable?
> 
> Dude, I thought you would have an idea about what Jihad really is or at least the definition of it.
> 
> Jihad, an Islamic term, is a religious *duty* of Muslims.
> A person engaged in jihad is called a mujahid, the plural is mujahideen.
> 
> Now let's get to what Jihad means in the context that we are using it:
> 
> In classical Islamic jurisprudence jihad consists of warfare with the aim of expansion and defence of Islamic territory.
> 
> Now seeing that Kashmir is majority Muslim, it automatically gets considered as a Islamic territory, so we will fight *forever* until the Muslim-majority lands are freed.
> 
> Got that?
> 
> Alright, now let me teach you why treating innocent Muslims will get India stuck in a pile of ****:
> 
> Ummah is the concept of a Muslim brotherhood where every single Muslim is equal, and no other Muslim is better than the other. And when a group of fellow Muslims is stuck in a calamity, a brother must do everything and anything he/she can to liberate them. The calamity can be poverty or a natural disaster or even a war, etc.
> 
> _"O People! Your God is one; your father is one; no preference of an Arab neither over non-Arab nor of a non-Arab over an Arab or red over black or black over red except for the most righteous. Verily the most honored of you is the most righteous." - Prophet Mohammed [pbuh]_
> 
> EX. Afghan resistance against Soviets. Muslims from all over the world, from Morocco to the Philippines arrived in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets, and eventually they won.
> 
> EX. Zakaat: Obligatory tax from all privileged Muslims to the poorer ones.
> 
> I hope you learned something about why we will never give up to free Kashmir from unbeliever hands. Same goes for occupied Palestine.
> 
> Thanks.




You have your own reason, we have our own.
Anyway, what Ummah you are talking? Why did East Pakistan become Bangladesh then?

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## AVADI

I can't understand why some Pakistani people are supporting these terrorists and branding them as freedom fighters this was the same term used by the USA when along with Pakistan used the Taliban to overthrow USSR in Afghanistan look how it backfired on both the nation and now Pakistan is doing the same thing.On short term they may be effective but on the long run these polices will backfire.

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## afriend

The so called freedom fighters, are a confused bunch.. illetrate and puppets under their handlers in ***. Coz i was wondering wot benifit they get by blowing up these railway tracks..???


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## prototype

this thread is making my brain go nuts

i am totally suprised by the attitude of pakistani members supporting the terror movement were more civilians r killed more than armymen

i can give a hundred sources here in which the terrorists from pakistan killing numerous kashmiri civilian-the same people for which they claim to fight

i seen here the super mod justifying the terror in kashmir as it is a disputed territory

mr super mod ur AZAD KASHMIR is also a disputed territory

just because it has a pakistani label,what do u think it is not disputed

some pak members in moscow thread were hailing moscow attacks and some here also call for same type of attacks on india

the final point is that kashmir was ours,is ours and always remain ours

u pak members know from which yr u r fighting for kashmir-1948 and this is 2010

62 yrs have passed by ur armed resistance is of no avail

our military had slayed more terrorist than the number of civilians these terrorists killed here

ur so called jehadis can only do one thing,target an innocent from behind,kill him and run back,this is not freedom fight,a freedom fighter need guts which these religious morons lack

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## naved_kam

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Like LeT tattoos or name tags?
> 
> Probably not. Its likely just a move to build on India's continuing 'Pakistan is not acting against LeT' propaganda.



Naaah........I think that they must have looked beyond the circumcision idea to confirm anything there about their identity and affiliation. This tatoo or circumcision things do not pass muster on this side of the border. 

May be ammunition, tactics, material evidence found on them, may be certificates of merit like those given to Ilyas Kashmiri by the GoP, may be radio intercepts while these super brave specimen's of humanity were running like jackals from the Indian Defence Forces.

To others friends on the forum maligning the IA, it was the J&K police that lead this operation to get these remote controlled instruments of terror and not the IA.

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## karan.1970

s6demon said:


> well you cant justify rape and murder, my friend.



Do you see me trying to justify anything to you.. Read my post again with the focus on the word NEED


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## secularguy

If at all possible to complete our border fencing? I am not aware of is it possible in Kashmir as well?


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## rohailmalhi

amoverlord said:


> i can ask u the same question to u on the context of fata,baloochistan?
> terrorists don\'t roam with a playcard saying\"kill me,i\'m terrorist\".....



I think u might know this tht whn Pakistan Army started operation against these foreign funded terrorists they vacate the area first and then kill them.

so chance tht PA kills civilian is very very low . as compare to the Indian army they kill innocent Kashmirs to show their top bosses tht they have killed terrorists .

I doubt tht those army people have any respect for Kashmirs coz they are there to kill them .so to suppress the freedom movement which is there from the beginning.


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## Iggy

s6demon said:


> well you cant justify rape and murder, my friend.



What about the rape and murder by your so called freedom fighters??can you justify that?Indian army Jawans are also killed in the actions against those 'innocent civilians'? if they are so innocent then how come Jawans become martyr??Is it also the inside work of the Army??


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## dabong1

May allah give these brave freedom fighters heaven.......


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## naved_kam

dabong1 said:


> May allah give these brave freedom fighters heaven.......



The same one that he is accepting the Taliban militants to I hope + also the hooors found on the calenders......


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## karan.1970

dabong1 said:


> May allah give these brave freedom fighters heaven.......



To quote one of my favourite line(slightly modified)

"Heaven or Hell... That's between them and Allah...The Indian army is content with just getting the 2 to meet"

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

IBRIS said:


> The British signed a document with the person of King Abdul Rahman Khan in 1893. t was to remain in force for one hundred years. It has not been revived on the deadline, which was 1993.
> 
> Sir Durand gave verbal assurance to Afghanistan that the lease will lat until 1993, but in the written agreement there is no mention of it. Otherwise just like Hong Kong, N.W.F.P would have gone back to Afghanistan in 1993.
> 
> WHY IS PAKISTAN SEEKING RENEWAL OF DURAND LINE AGREEMENT WITH AFGHANISTAN?.
> Why did KABUL denied to renew the agreement?.
> PAKISTAN SEEKS RENEWAL OF DURAND LINE AGREEMENT WITH AFGHANISTAN. - AsiaPulse News | Encyclopedia.com



A 'verbal assurance' means there is no evidence any commitment was provided on the expiration of the Durand Agreement. In fact it beggars belief that something as important as the expiration of an international treaty would not be specifically mentioned in the treaty/agreement itself. 

As for Khalilur Rehman's comments, those were in his individual capacity, and not the views of the GoP, as indicated in this complte article from the Dawn, which also points out that the Durand Agreement has no expiration date:
_
For decades Afghanistan has disputed the so-called Durand Line with some Afghan historians claiming that the agreement signed under duress was vaild for 100 years only. According to those historians the agreement had expired in January 1993.

The English text of the agreement, however, does not mention any time limit.​_Governor urges federal govt to renew Durand Line agreement -DAWN - Top Stories; September 22, 2005

Give up yet? There is nothing validating Afghan claims of an expiration of the Durand agreement after 100 years.


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## thebrownguy

dabong1 said:


> May allah give these brave freedom fighters heaven.......



Sorry, i am sure allah does not grant heaven to terrorists. These fools must have realized by now.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Who cares whether it was tattoos or text or ISI propoganda material on them, or tactics or may be one of them was captured and executed after interrogation..
> 
> .. If Indians trust IA to keep us safe in India, we trust them when they say they killed 6 terrorists.. What ever any one else says, really doesnt matter to us...



Of course Pakistan cares, since India has made it a point to use the LeT as propaganda against Pakistan.

Whether you trust the IA to keep you safe or not has little to do with whether the claims made in the article are true or not. Trust does not equal evidence. So long as these events occur in disputed territory and India accuses 'external actors', it becomes Pakistan's business.


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## Iggy

dabong1 said:


> May allah give these brave freedom fighters heaven.......



Amen...may Allah give them equal status as the freedom fighters of Baluchisthan

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## karan.1970

Guys.. Lets keep Durand Line and other subjects out of this thread.. No need to get into controvertial discussions. This is a happy thread.. Lets keep it that way..


btw Times Now is reporting that One more has been hunted down and killed. No e-media on that so far...


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## dabong1

I think the title should be changed to *"6 freedom fighters martyred in IOK"*


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## PlanetWarrior

s6demon said:


> YouTube - Kashmir children attacked by Indian soliders
> 
> 
> here is further entertainment for our Indian friends.



These are Indian police not soldiers. This kind of violence on kids by the police is unacceptable. If these kids were doing anything wrong , they should have been detained but not beaten to the extent that they were in this recording. I can only hope that this kind of police brutality will face condemnation by the authorities in India


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> - Disputed status (not recognized by GOI) does not legitimize terror attacks


Strawman - who is legitimizing terror attacks? How do we know these militants would have engaged in terrorism (deliberate attacks on non-combatants) rather than attack Indian security forces occupying the territory?


> - Disputed or not, its a part of India, run under the writ of Indian constitution and IA has been authorised by GOI to apprehend and kill terrorists, which they are doing. What anyone in Pakistan says has no bearing or impact on it.


Read my last response to you on this point - whether India wishes to live in delusions over the status of J&K does not change reality.


> - You need to read my whole text to see the context in which I drew the parallel..


There can be no equivalence between FATA, Swat and K-P on one side, and disputed territory on the other. How do we know these militants were terrorists, rather than militants fighting against Indian occupation to get India to let the Kashmiris exercise their right of self-determination?


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## Kabir Panthi

seiko said:


> *What about the rape and murder by your so called freedom fighters??*can you justify that?Indian army Jawans are also killed in the actions against those 'innocent civilians'? if they are so innocent then how come Jawans become martyr??Is it also the inside work of the Army??



It is a fact that Pakistani terrorist groups having been slaughtering Kashmiris in the thousands.

This is not just an Indian allegation ... former ISI chief General Javed Ashraf Qazi has admitted it publicly in the Pakistan parliament.

Indian troops in Kashmir protect the locals from Pakistani terrorists; the local public and police play a very important role in the efforts to kill the terrorists.

Unfortunately, the majority of Pakistanis do not realize that they are victims of propaganda by their government.



> *Kashmir villagers protest Rashtrya Rifles camp pullout*
> 
> Ishfaq ul Hassan / DNASaturday, March 27, 2010 0:11 IST
> 
> _Srinagar: For those who champion the cause of demilitarisation, this should be an eye-opener._
> 
> Leaving behind fear, hundreds of people held a rare protest on Wednesday against the shifting of a Rashtriya Rifles (RR) camp from the remote Gadbad village in the border district of Kupwara.
> Lieutenant Colonel JS Brar, the defence spokesman in Srinagar, said the protesters blocked roads leading out of the camp in Lolab valley. They also petitioned senior RR officers not to shift the camp, he said.
> 
> The army has protected us from militant excesses. We do not want the dark days to return. We will approach the highest authority to stop the shifting, 75-year-old Ghulam Ahmad Sheikh was quoted as saying. Sheikhs two daughters were killed by militants in the late nineties.
> 
> About 120 km north of Srinagar, the serene Lolab valley was once a hotbed of militancy with several top ultras operating from the area. But the army eliminated dozens of senior militant leaders in the jungles, Brar said, adding, The Rashtriya Rifles camps in the area have created a sense of security among locals.
> 
> He said the readjustment of troops in active counter-insurgency operations was a dynamic and ongoing process. However, this [protest] is heartening. Senior officers are aware of the matter, the security grid will not be affected, the spokesman said.
> 
> 
> *Kashmir villagers protest Rashtrya Rifles camp pullout - dnaindia.com*

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

seiko said:


> Amen...may Allah give them equal status as the freedom fighters of Baluchisthan



And Baluchistan became disputed territory when?

One Indian already had his anti-Pakistan talking points debunked on the Durand Line, you really want to go down that road on Baluchistan now?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Guys.. Lets keep Durand Line and other subjects out of this thread..


I am perfectly happy with not discussing Baluchistan, FATA, Swat and NWFP, since there is absolutely no equivalence with these territories and the disputed territory of J&K. However, it is Indians who have to stop dragging in extraneous issues such as these in Kashmir discussions - both you and Seiko have done that on this thread.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Of course Pakistan cares, since India has made it a point to use the LeT as propaganda against Pakistan.
> 
> Whether you trust the IA to keep you safe or not has little to do with whether the claims made in the article are true or not. Trust does not equal evidence. So long as these events occur in disputed territory and India accuses 'external actors', it becomes Pakistan's business.



Oh! I meant Who cares *in India*..

And really, for Indian Army hunting down the terrorists scum in the state of J&K , Pakistan's feelings or care really dont mean a thing.. You may argue that these guys are not LeT. That's fine.. No one is taking that to court anyway... And really, even if any evidence is required to justify that these were *fair kills* that is between Indian Army and GoI. Pakistan has no business there... And any way Pakistan also calls LeT a terrorist organization.. so whats the issue. No one has said that these were Pakistani Army soldiers.. Have they??

Look at it this way

1. If these were innocents, its between GoI and IA
2. If these were terrorists, good for us..

As I said.. Pakistan has no standing in this..

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Bang Galore said:


> Tell me about anything remotely similar which happens in Pakistan.



Go to the Baluchistan thread and look at the videos of interviews of Baluch nationalist leaders, and members of Baluch nationalist organizations giving interviews on Pakistani TV channels claiming atrocities and demanding independence.

These leaders and organizations also run their business in open view and are allowed to participate. The ones that are banned and underground are primarily the ones using violence as a tool to achieve their demands.


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## naved_kam

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Of course Pakistan cares, since India has made it a point to use the LeT as propaganda against Pakistan.



Not just India Sir, please put U.S also in that set of progandist regimes against the LeT. Also U.K. This Dawood Gilani fellow has really given the evil propagandists another opportunity to falsely implicate an innocent nation.




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Whether you trust the IA to keep you safe or not has little to do with whether the claims made in the article are true or not. Trust does not equal evidence. So long as these events occur in disputed territory and India accuses 'external actors', it becomes Pakistan's business.




If every accusation of role of "external actors" in the world becomes Pakistan's business then no wonder GoP is so busy. Russia too just a few days back alluded to adding Pakistan's work load in this business activity.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Oh! I meant Who cares *in India*..
> 
> And really, for Indian Army hunting down the terrorists scum in the state of J&K , Pakistan's feelings or care really dont mean a thing.. You may argue that these guys are not LeT. That's fine.. No one is taking that to court anyway... And really, even if any evidence is required to justify that these were *fair kills* that is between Indian Army and GoI. Pakistan has no business there... And any way Pakistan also calls LeT a terrorist organization.. so whats the issue. No one has said that these were Pakistani Army soldiers.. Have they??
> 
> Look at it this way
> 
> 1. If these were innocents, its between GoI and IA
> 2. If these were terrorists, good for us..
> 
> As I said.. Pakistan has no standing in this..


So long as the territory is disputed and India references Pakistan in some way it is our business, whether you care or not makes no difference.

I take it then that there is no evidence validating Indian media claims on the identity of these individuals...


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Strawman - who is legitimizing terror attacks? How do we know these militants would have engaged in terrorism (deliberate attacks on non-combatants) rather than attack Indian security forces occupying the territory?


Either way, they had to be shot. Isnt it?? You dont expect Indian forces to stand still while being attacked??



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Read my last response to you on this point - whether India wishes to live in delusions over the status of J&K does not change reality.


Either way, delusions or not.. Pakistan does not have a say in the state of J&K.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> There can be no equivalence between FATA, Swat and K-P on one side, and disputed territory on the other. How do we know these militants were terrorists, rather than militants fighting against Indian occupation to get India to let the Kashmiris exercise their right of self-determination?


The only difference then is the UN stamp.. On ground that does not mean a thing today. So if right of self determination is the benchmark, then that right does not need a stamp of approval from UN.. And thats pretty much is the difference between Kashmir, and Balochistan, FATA, SWAT and NWFP


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I am perfectly happy with not discussing Baluchistan, FATA, Swat and NWFP, since there is absolutely no equivalence with these territories and the disputed territory of J&K. However, it is Indians who have to stop dragging in extraneous issues such as these in Kashmir discussions - both you and Seiko have done that on this thread.



The issue is not the status of J&K vs pakistani territories. The issue in discussion was terrorirsts/militants and their treatment. There is nothing that says that the security forces are allowed to kill terrorists/militants in a non disputed area but not in a disputed area.

And to your strawman arguement around the possibiliity of these folks not attacking civilians, do you suggest that IA waits till they do that and allow civilians to be killed before taking action??

btw there was an attack on a civilian rail line today in J&K. A line not used normally by IA. What would that be ?? a RAW false flag?

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## Iggy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I am perfectly happy with not discussing Baluchistan, FATA, Swat and NWFP, since there is absolutely no equivalence with these territories and the disputed territory of J&K. However, it is Indians who have to stop dragging in extraneous issues such as these in Kashmir discussions - both you and Seiko have done that on this thread.






AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And Baluchistan became disputed territory when?
> 
> One Indian already had his anti-Pakistan talking points debunked on the Durand Line, you really want to go down that road on Baluchistan now?



No Agno i dont really care about what happening in Baluchistan..but i dont like people defending and glorifying terrorism in the name of freedom fighting..there is no good and bad terrorism.. all terrorism are bad..so i was giving him taste of his own medicine..if you think killing people in the name of freedom in Baluchistan is terrorism then killing in Kashmir by militants are also terrorism ...

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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> So long as the territory is disputed and India references Pakistan in some way it is our business, whether you care or not makes no difference.
> 
> I take it then that there is no evidence validating Indian media claims on the identity of these individuals...



No.. There is none in the circulation at this time.. May be IA is waiting for the *Right Time * to disclose that..

For us, its a happy enough news that some of these terrorists are getting hunted like the animals they are.. Whether they are from Pakistan based LeT or not, that is secondary...

About this being your business, yes, a lot of Indians do belive that it is...At least the seed capital if not active management at this time..


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## Skeptic

karan.1970 said:


> btw there was an attack on a civilian rail line today in J&K. A line not used normally by IA. What would that be ?? a RAW false flag?



Exactly my view. Why does the Pakistani vision get blurred when civilian establishment in and Outside Kashmir are targeted. The railway line was there to help civilians only, and don't tell me Local Kashmirs will be helped in any way by destruction of commutation channels.

False Flag operation: We dont need those to preach to converted. World view is close to the Indian opinion, and we do not need any of these false flag operation to strengthen our claims.

Yeah they were innocent youth who were hiding in the forest with AK47s with an intention of hunting for rabbits. And yes, it is snowing in Chennai as well.

Which organization were they from... If the people at the scene say LeT we have no reasons to disbelief them. Finer details will be figured out later, right now it is time to kill these scumbags who have zero value for human life, neither theirs nor others.

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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> - both you and Seiko have done that on this thread.



Just to clarify my stand on this...The post I put in went like this..


===============================
I guess same as what PA is doing in FATA, SWAT and NWFP.. Asking all taliban to disperse, to be used later for formenting terrorism in Afg. Catching hold of Innocent Pashtuns and killing them and showing dead bodies to collect aid from US...???



See how bad it feels when the shoe is on the other foot.. What you said was *as ridiculous as *the statement above.. 
============================

which was in response to someone commenting that these encounters were fake. 

I was drawing a parallel to an PA operation and why it is ridiculous to call either of them as fake..The intent was not to equate J&K to NWFP anyway atleast before the slug fest began...


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Either way, they had to be shot. Isnt it?? You dont expect Indian forces to stand still while being attacked??


Another strawman and digression. Who said anything about 'Indian forces standing by'? You are concocting your own points as you go along and arguing against them.

However, the issue of why the media (and Indian security forces if they were the source) claimed these militants were LeT is relevant to the credibility of the media and the IA, and relevant to Pakistan in that it seeks to build upon the usual Indian propaganda of 'Pakistan not acting against the LeT.



> Either way, delusions or not.. Pakistan does not have a say in the state of J&K.


Given our influence with separatist leaders (political and militant, in IAK and outside IAK) I would argue Pakistan does have a say, and we have exercised that 'say' very responsibly since Musharraf embarked upon the back channel dialog with India by helping reduce the insurgency to a trickle.

Whether you accept it or not, as in the case of the disputed status of the territory, does not change reality.


> The only difference then is the UN stamp.. On ground that does not mean a thing today. So if right of self determination is the benchmark, then that right does not need a stamp of approval from UN.. And thats pretty much is the difference between Kashmir, and Balochistan, FATA, SWAT and NWFP


Oh but it means a whole lot - what the UN resolutions do is internationalize the issue and legitimize Pakistan's interests in J&K, and it legitimizes the demands of the people in favor of self determination of that territory.Anything outside of that is 'local grievances' and will be handled domestically.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

seiko said:


> No Agno i dont really care about what happening in Baluchistan..but i dont like people defending and glorifying terrorism in the name of freedom fighting.there is no good and bad terrorism.. all terrorism are bad..so i was giving him taste of his own medicine..if you think killing people in the name of freedom in Baluchistan is terrorism then killing in Kashmir by militants are also terrorism ...



I don't think anyone is defending and glorifying attacks on 'non-combatants'. Attacks on Indian security forces are legitimate. Are there militants that deliberately attack non-combatants - yes, and they should be condemned, just as the IA should be condemned for the tens of thousands of innocents it has massacred and tortured in J&K.

You can't just 'cherry pick' the atrocities by militants and give a free pass to the Indian and Indian controlled security forces.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> No.. There is none in the circulation at this time.. May be IA is waiting for the *Right Time * to disclose that..
> 
> For us, its a happy enough news that some of these terrorists are getting hunted like the animals they are.. Whether they are from Pakistan based LeT or not, that is secondary...
> 
> About this being your business, yes, a lot of Indians do belive that it is...At least the seed capital if not active management at this time..



Starting to troll now that you have no answers?

BTW, when you use language like that, you justify the use of language by Pakistanis referencing the four soldiers killed fighting militants a few days ago as 'Indian Army dogs dying like the animals they are', which is 'happy news for those of us that oppose Indian occupation of kashmir'.

There is a reason why I said that the 'rhetoric' needs to be toned down.


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## PlanetWarrior

Just as a matter of curiousity. Has the issue of joint administration of Kashmir (the entire Kashmir including the part administered by Pakistan) by India and Pakistan ever been discussed? It is well known that Pakistan regards Kashmir as being an important source of its water and India , well India regards Kashmir as being its territory. I am not well clued up on Kashmir having just visited the area for a few days and the media in Africa doesn't seem to regard Kashmir as being newsworthy and in fact reports the whole of Kashmir as being Indian territory. I was once amazed to read here that an event which occured in Azad Kashmir was reported as being an "Indian event". Any idea what the policies of India and Pakistan are on joint administration. My view is that this will dispel 99&#37; of the animosity of the 2 nations and will lead to a new stride in Sth Asia


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

PlanetWarrior said:


> Just as a matter of curiousity. Has the issue of joint administration of Kashmir (the entire Kashmir including the part administered by Pakistan) by India and Pakistan ever been discussed? It is well known that Pakistan regards Kashmir as being an important source of its water and India , well India regards Kashmir as being its territory. I am not well clued up on Kashmir having just visited the area for a few days and the media in Africa doesn't seem to regard Kashmir as being newsworthy and in fact reports the whole of Kashmir as being Indian territory. I was once amazed to read here that an event which occured in Azad Kashmir was reported as being an "Indian event". Any idea what the policies of India and Pakistan are on joint administration. My view is that this will dispel 99% of the animosity of the 2 nations and will lead to a new stride in Sth Asia


The reported 'deal' through backchannel dialog during Musharraf's time would have created a situation similar to a 'joint administration'.

Rather unfortunate that it fell through.


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## PlanetWarrior

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The reported 'deal' through backchannel dialog during Musharraf's time would have created a situation similar to a 'joint administration'.
> 
> Rather unfortunate that it fell through.



I heard the General speak once when I was in the USA and he was still President of Pakistan. He made limited reference to Kashmir but spoke about global issues and need to engage in good faith dialogue to ensure stability in the world. He was truly amazing and I would not be surprised if he indeed suggested a joint administration. It is indeed a pity not only for the peoples of Kashmir but for the entire sub continent that such a deal did not materialise


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

PlanetWarrior said:


> I heard the General speak once when I was in the USA and he was still President of Pakistan. He made limited reference to Kashmir but spoke about global issues and need to engage in good faith dialogue to ensure stability in the world. He was truly amazing and I would not be surprised if he indeed suggested a joint administration. It is indeed a pity not only for the peoples of Kashmir but for the entire sub continent that such a deal did not materialise



You know, for someone known as the 'architect of kargil' (which by all accounts he appears to be, even if NS gave his approval), ironically Musharraf showed an amazing amount of flexibility on J&K and did indeed act as a statesman.

It is indeed a pity for South Asia that Kashmir has not been resolved yet. Looking back, it seems a history of missed opportunities. Hopefully we won't add to the count the next time one comes up.

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## Jade

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Given our influence with separatist leaders (political and militant, in IAK and outside IAK) I would argue Pakistan does have a say, and we have exercised that 'say' very responsibly since Musharraf embarked upon the back channel dialog with India by helping reduce the insurgency to a trickle.



I think you are overestimating your influence on separatists. Except perhaps Syed Ali Gilani, please be clear that no separatist is with Pakistan. They are having their own ideas and interests on Kashmir which are not in line with what Pakistan thinks. It is clear that separatist are using Pakistan as a bargaining tool with India to get a better deal 



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Oh but it means a whole lot - what the UN resolutions do is internationalize the issue and legitimize Pakistan's interests in J&K, and it legitimizes the demands of the people in favor of self determination of that territory.Anything outside of that is 'local grievances' and will be handled domestically.



Last year alone there were around 40 UN resolutions. Is that meaning all the issues are internationalized? Except Pakistan no country has asked India for UN resolutions neither can anybody ask, lest their interest are effected, even Pakistan knows that UN resolutions are non implementable or can it force India to implement and is harping UN resolutions as a tool to bargain more from India


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Another strawman and digression. Who said anything about 'Indian forces standing by'? You are concocting your own points as you go along and arguing against them.


Agno.. You said that how do we know if they were attacking civilians or Army.. And my view is that in either case, they needed to be shot. I am not at all concocting points here.. 



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> However, the issue of why the media (and Indian security forces if they were the source) claimed these militants were LeT is relevant to the credibility of the media and the IA, and relevant to Pakistan in that it seeks to build upon the usual Indian propaganda of 'Pakistan not acting against the LeT.



So I can agree with you on usage of term LeT, but then doesnt Pakistani media simply lands up on India every time there is a blast.. As you yourself have put it that India backed Balochi terrorists are suspect in most blast cases. The same applies here.. 



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Given our influence with separatist leaders (political and militant, in IAK and outside IAK) I would argue Pakistan does have a say, and we have exercised that 'say' very responsibly since Musharraf embarked upon the back channel dialog with India by helping reduce the insurgency to a trickle.
> Whether you accept it or not, as in the case of the disputed status of the territory, does not change reality.


Pakistan may have a say with a bunch of separatist leaders, but there value in J&K is significantly diminished post successful elections which they boycotted. The only say that can have any impact is with the organizations like LeT (if that say exists). And these ops are against those organizations only



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Oh but it means a whole lot - what the UN resolutions do is internationalize the issue and legitimize Pakistan's interests in J&K, and it legitimizes the demands of the people in favor of self determination of that territory.Anything outside of that is 'local grievances' and will be handled domestically.



I dont see any govenments across the world condemning India on killing such people.. Do you??

Let me be clear once again. The issue under discussion here is killing of these terrorists. Not the status of Kashmir...


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## PlanetWarrior

jade1982 said:


> I think you are overestimating your influence on separatists. Except perhaps Syed Ali Gilani, please be clear that no separatist is with Pakistan. They are having their own ideas and interests on Kashmir which are not in line with what Pakistan thinks. It is clear that separatist are using Pakistan as a bargaining tool with India to get a better deal
> 
> 
> 
> Last year alone there were around 40 UN resolutions. Is that meaning all the issues are internationalized? Except Pakistan no country has asked India for UN resolutions neither can anybody ask, lest their interest are effected, even Pakistan knows that UN resolutions are non implementable or can it force India to implement and is harping UN resolutions as a tool to bargain more from India



When 6 people and an Indian soldier is killed and the death toll starts mounting then people in Kashmir, Pakistan and India need to start asking themselves what exactly is the foundation of the problem. UN resolutions and tit for tat responses are immaterial. To the average Kashmiri mother who begs for her son's release from detention from the police just because he happened to bypass a crowd demanding "liberation" and was arrested for "being in the wrong place in the wrong time" , UN resolutions and what Pakistan or India wants out of Kashmir is immaterial. The day to day lives of all Kashmiris are being affected and Indians and Pakistanis need to look at the people of Kashmir and not Kashmir as being a land which they must fight on for their egos.

Kashmir is not just an ideological dispute between Pakistan and India. It is an insult to both Pakistan and India that they cannot between themselves resolve this dispute amicably and lead their lives as brothers. The only victims of this dispute are the Kashmiris. I am sorry but I cannot reconcile myself with the average Indian view that since Kashmir is part of India then it is necessary for the whole of India to decide on the future of Kashmir and not just the people of Kashmir. India as a nation will still remain a strong nation if just 3 state of India remains in the Union. We do not need to force our authority anywhere. I am definately not conceding that Kashmiris want independence or want to join the nation of Pakistan. All I am saying is that for peace to prevail then we have to ask our people of a certain area what exactly is it that they want. That is what we need to ask the Kashmiris via a poll. If we could engage with the Maoists when they commenced violence, why can't we do the same in Kashmir . If Kashmir is a thorn in the foot of South Asia then only India can remove that torn. We can boast all we want that we have the military might and the weapons to own Kashmir. But the question is simply whether we have the moral might to hold onto Kashmir. For the sake of progress the area should be jointly administered until it is well stabilised to ensure that the true wishes of the Kashmiris are elicited.


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## Jade

PlanetWarrior said:


> When 6 people and an Indian soldier is killed and the death toll starts mounting then people in Kashmir, Pakistan and India need to start asking themselves what exactly is the foundation of the problem. UN resolutions and tit for tat responses are immaterial. To the average Kashmiri mother who begs for her son's release from detention from the police just because he happened to bypass a crowd demanding "liberation" and was arrested for "being in the wrong place in the wrong time" , UN resolutions and what Pakistan or India wants out of Kashmir is immaterial. The day to day lives of all Kashmiris are being affected and Indians and Pakistanis need to look at the people of Kashmir and not Kashmir as being a land which they must fight on for their egos.
> 
> Kashmir is not just an ideological dispute between Pakistan and India. It is an insult to both Pakistan and India that they cannot between themselves resolve this dispute amicably and lead their lives as brothers. The only victims of this dispute are the Kashmiris. I am sorry but I cannot reconcile myself with the average Indian view that since Kashmir is part of India then it is necessary for the whole of India to decide on the future of Kashmir and not just the people of Kashmir. India as a nation will still remain a strong nation if just 3 state of India remains in the Union. We do not need to force our authority anywhere. I am definately not conceding that Kashmiris want independence or want to join the nation of Pakistan. All I am saying is that for peace to prevail then we have to ask our people of a certain area what exactly is it that they want. That is what we need to ask the Kashmiris via a poll. If we could engage with the Maoists when they commenced violence, why can't we do the same in Kashmir . If Kashmir is a thorn in the foot of South Asia then only India can remove that torn. We can boast all we want that we have the military might and the weapons to own Kashmir. But the question is simply whether we have the moral might to hold onto Kashmir. For the sake of progress the area should be jointly administered until it is well stabilised to ensure that the true wishes of the Kashmiris are elicited.




PlanetWarrior,

Believe me, majority of Indians are for peace. We dont want any mother to lose a child. It is not just Kashmir, but the very foundation of India is lost. Although I respect your opinion, I personally believe that Indian Integrity cannot be negotiable. Moreover, Kashmir is not just about implementing some UN resolutions. There is more to it. Please, let me ask some questions to you. 1) What make you think that Kashmiris are not happy in the Union? 2) What makes you think that once Kashmir is solved, peace will prevail in South Asia? 3) Why do think that India does not have the moral rights to hold Kashmir? 4) What about the rest of Indians? 5) What about the communal violence in India if Kashmir goes out of the Union? 6) What about the effects of another partition on the subcontinent? 7) What about millions of people displaced from their native areas and become refugees? According to me, these questions take precedent over Kashmir. 

Bro, I hope you have not misunderstood me. Peace is important, but at what cost.

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## thebrownguy

PlanetWarrior said:


> When 6 people and an Indian soldier is killed and the death toll starts mounting then people in Kashmir, Pakistan and India need to start asking themselves what exactly is the foundation of the problem. UN resolutions and tit for tat responses are immaterial. To the average Kashmiri mother who begs for her son's release from detention from the police just because he happened to bypass a crowd demanding "liberation" and was arrested for "being in the wrong place in the wrong time" , UN resolutions and what Pakistan or India wants out of Kashmir is immaterial. The day to day lives of all Kashmiris are being affected and Indians and Pakistanis need to look at the people of Kashmir and not Kashmir as being a land which they must fight on for their egos.
> 
> Kashmir is not just an ideological dispute between Pakistan and India. It is an insult to both Pakistan and India that they cannot between themselves resolve this dispute amicably and lead their lives as brothers. The only victims of this dispute are the Kashmiris. I am sorry but I cannot reconcile myself with the average Indian view that since Kashmir is part of India then it is necessary for the whole of India to decide on the future of Kashmir and not just the people of Kashmir. India as a nation will still remain a strong nation if just 3 state of India remains in the Union. We do not need to force our authority anywhere. I am definately not conceding that Kashmiris want independence or want to join the nation of Pakistan. All I am saying is that for peace to prevail then we have to ask our people of a certain area what exactly is it that they want. That is what we need to ask the Kashmiris via a poll. If we could engage with the Maoists when they commenced violence, why can't we do the same in Kashmir . If Kashmir is a thorn in the foot of South Asia then only India can remove that torn. We can boast all we want that we have the military might and the weapons to own Kashmir. But the question is simply whether we have the moral might to hold onto Kashmir. For the sake of progress the area should be jointly administered until it is well stabilised to ensure that the true wishes of the Kashmiris are elicited.



I don't believe in replying with sugar coated pills. Such pseudo intellectual talks and ideologies can only help get you applauses, not solutions. An ideological world does not even exist in fiction now a days. Can you believe the hypocrisy of the separatist, they are willing to join hands against us, their rescuers, with the same people who invaded their land and created rape and plunder in 1947.

By your logic, even Khalistan movement was justified, because during the partition the future of a separate sikh state was to be decided later, it was not completely ruled out.

And what is prompting them to ask Azaadi? India offers them their democratic rights, and maybe even more than that. Special rights to retain land, reservations in schools, colleges and government jobs.
The so called oppression and human right violations have come in the picture after 1989, when these people supported separatism and insurgency for no justified cause. The lack of development is a choice made by Kasmiris themselves. The infrastructure in the valley has been rapidly developing, but these people do not want to put it to use. They have committed themselves to throwing stones every week, and crying about their woes. Its their choice to make, they have an opportunity to change things for them.

I understand that an idealist like you will never understand the crude justifications i have given. But please try to be a bit realistic when thinking about these issues. The most important point is "We will never let India break in 2 pieces" That is a fact. You will never see any solution in the Kashmir valley.


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## FreekiN

Bang Galore said:


> Of all the comments i have heard on this forum, this one must rank among the worst. Are you actually asking for mass murder to be committed in India like it was done on the Russian underground? Are you the same person who was calling the Saudis backward on another thread because they wanted to behead one guy? Guess your concern for humanity does not extend to Indians.



HUMANITY? HA! 



> SRINAGAR, India  The police shot and killed a Muslim protester as huge crowds shouting "We want freedom" took to the streets of Kashmir on Thursday over a land dispute that is testing New Delhi's hold on the troubled Himalayan region. [this was a while ago]



India has OCCUPIED Kashmir, endlessly killed and beaten innocent people and apparently they can talk about 'humanity?' They need half a million troops there just to keep it in order! 

Death toll at the hands of Indian soldiers is about 50,000. Mass graves are still being found as long as they don't become subject to more cover-ups.

GG.


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## prototype

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And Baluchistan became disputed territory when?
> 
> One Indian already had his anti-Pakistan talking points debunked on the Durand Line, you really want to go down that road on Baluchistan now?



ok let leave out that,baluchistan is not disputed and kashmir is

so u r justifying the terror network in kashmir because it is a disputed state

and please tell me how u think to resolve kasmir issue,by surrendering it?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Kabir Panthi said:


> *It is a fact that Pakistani terrorist groups having been slaughtering Kashmiris in the thousands*.This is not just an Indian allegation ... former ISI chief General Javed Ashraf Qazi has admitted it publicly in the Pakistan parliament.


LOL 
And the kashmiris are fools protesting against crimes of occuping forces?rapes,encounter missing people etc.
And people like yaseen malik,gilani,umar farooq and others with support of kashmiri people are lying and indians are saying the truth?
While the whole world declares it disputed and HRC etc are reporting violation of basic human right and other herineous acts?





> Indian troops in Kashmir protect the locals from Pakistani terrorists; the local public and police play a very important role in the efforts to kill the terrorists.


Half a million occuping force sitting since 47 protecting kashmiris who are asking for freedom????protesting rapes,murders and kidnaps are all Pakistani terrorists?
Wat a shame.
Son dont watch to many bollywood flicks it makes u look retarded.


> Unfortunately, the majority of Pakistanis do not realize that they are victims of propaganda by their government.
> Kashmir villagers protest Rashtrya Rifles camp pullout
> 
> Ishfaq ul Hassan / DNASaturday, March 27, 2010 0:11 IST
> 
> Srinagar: For those who champion the cause of demilitarisation, this should be an eye-opener.
> 
> Leaving behind fear, hundreds of people held a rare protest on Wednesday against the shifting of a Rashtriya Rifles (RR) camp from the remote Gadbad village in the border district of Kupwara.
> Lieutenant Colonel JS Brar, the defence spokesman in Srinagar, said the protesters blocked roads leading out of the camp in Lolab valley. They also petitioned senior RR officers not to shift the camp, he said.
> 
> The army has protected us from militant excesses. We do not want the dark days to return. We will approach the highest authority to stop the shifting, 75-year-old Ghulam Ahmad Sheikh was quoted as saying. Sheikhs two daughters were killed by militants in the late nineties.
> 
> About 120 km north of Srinagar, the serene Lolab valley was once a hotbed of militancy with several top ultras operating from the area. But the army eliminated dozens of senior militant leaders in the jungles, Brar said, adding, The Rashtriya Rifles camps in the area have created a sense of security among locals.
> 
> He said the readjustment of troops in active counter-insurgency operations was a dynamic and ongoing process. However, this [protest] is heartening. Senior officers are aware of the matter, the security grid will not be affected, the spokesman said.
> 
> 
> Kashmir villagers protest Rashtrya Rifles camp pullout - dnaindia.com



:achu achu cough cough
Sorry im allergIC TO BULL SHYT.


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## Mirza Jatt

FreekiN said:


> India has OCCUPIED Kashmir, endlessly killed and beaten innocent people and apparently they can talk about 'humanity?' They need half a million troops there just to keep it in order!



Buddy there are thousand of therads and endless discussion on this..still let me try once more - 
(1)you saying India has occupied Kashmir? Indians know that Pakistan has occupied Kashmir.
(2)you say endessly killed innocents?? Indians know they have killed terrorists trying to infiltrate into our land with unscrupulous intentions and will keep killing in future..thats called *Duty*.



> Death toll at the hands of Indian soldiers is about 50,000. Mass graves are still being found as long as they don't become subject to more cover-ups.



hhmm...I don't know about that figure in total but they just killed 6 more of these.

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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## DESERT FIGHTER

Indian Jatt said:


> Buddy there are thousand of therads and endless discussion on this..still let me try once more -
> (1)you saying India has occupied Kashmir? Indians *know that Pakistan has occupied Kashmir*.


Funny 
There are no protests no HCR and UN reports nothing on ourside while on IOK everything is opposite.
World declares it disputed *u imagine* it my occuping its urs.


> (2)you say endessly killed innocents?? *Indians know they have killed terrorists trying to infiltrate into our land *with unscrupulous intentions and will keep killing in future..thats called *Duty*.



Yup those 100000 were all infiltrators aneverything is hunky and dory....And its not urs its Kashmiris and wat they decide.

*hhmm...I don't know about that figure in total but they just killed 6 more of these.*

Shamefuless to be proud of killing Freedom fighter.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Starting to troll now that you have no answers?


No Agno.. I said there is no evidence shared.. 



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> BTW, when you use language like that, you justify the use of language by Pakistanis referencing the four soldiers killed fighting militants a few days ago as 'Indian Army dogs dying like the animals they are', which is 'happy news for those of us that oppose Indian occupation of kashmir'.
> 
> There is a reason why I said that the 'rhetoric' needs to be toned down.



Do you ask rhetoric to be toned down when it refers to TTP terrorists being killed. Dont you rejoice. Disputed or not, the sentiment in India on terrorists being killed in Kashmir is just the same. 

The comparison you draw between a terrorist and an army man is sad but I know your arguement would be that my terrorist is your freedom fighter. So be it.. You can call martyred Indian army men what you like.. It will not change the way we think of these terrorists and certainly not the way we think of our men in khaki...It will definitely not dampen our joy on the death of these terrorists.. 

Let this be one of those issues where we agree to disagree...

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## Mirza Jatt

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Funny
> There are no protests no HCR and UN reports nothing on ourside while on IOK everything is opposite.
> World declares it disputed *u imagine* it my occuping its urs..



Our side is definitely disputed my friend..thanks to you...as far as protest in our side is concerned..is it really that tough to guess who is encouraging them?? probably thats the reason why hundred of innocent Kashmiris get killed after being brainwashed.



> Yup those 100000 were all infiltrators aneverything is hunky and dory....And its not urs its Kashmiris and wat they decide



so mean a total of 100000 innocent pople killed?? any source buddy?? or just that you like that figure?? I know its less cause we know how many terrorist we killed..so please...and yes you are right its kashmir not our kashmir not *your* kashmir.

*hhmm...I don't know about that figure in total but they just killed 6 more of these.*



> Shamefuless to be proud of killing Freedom fighter.



 freedom fighters??? c'mon man...just thank us that Indian army is killing them otherwise these so called freedom fighters will destroy the entire kashmir and there will be no freedom and no fight.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Jatt sahab i have a personel question no offence how did it fell when golden temple was distroyed by indian army?
coz thts wat kashmiris and pakistanis are keeping inside since 6 decades.


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## Mirza Jatt

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Jatt sahab i have a personel question no offence how did it fell when golden temple was distroyed by indian army?
> coz thts wat kashmiris and pakistanis are keeping inside since 6 decades.



If you have any personal question you can send me private message.I know you know how to use it,you don't need it to derail the thread by these cheap tactics.

anyways your answer :

How can you relate golden temple incident with Kahmir issue??
Golden temple saddened me just like any other sikh and still makes me feel bad for our people who were killed.

Kashmir is being used by anti India elements for fullfilling their own purpose by using these innocent kashmiris and brainwashing them.
And I am sorry if you are carrying that flame for 6 decades but just for that reason we can't allow someone from outside to step into our home.

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## Arik

FreekiN said:


> HUMANITY? HA!
> 
> 
> 
> India has OCCUPIED Kashmir, endlessly killed and beaten innocent people and apparently they can talk about 'humanity?' They need half a million troops there just to keep it in order!
> 
> Death toll at the hands of Indian soldiers is about 50,000. Mass graves are still being found as long as they don't become subject to more cover-ups.
> 
> GG.



Well it was Pakistan which made an attempt to capture the whole of Kashmir by launching operation Gulmarg just after independence.


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## hillman32

I offer my condolences to the families for 6 Kashmiries who had been killed and named as Pakistani militants.

Pakistan is not sending anyone as the policy of GOP is changed now.

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## karan.1970

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Jatt sahab i have a personel question no offence how did it fell when golden temple was distroyed by indian army?
> .



why dont you ask the gentleman with the saffron cloth around his shoulder

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## riju78

karan.1970 said:


> why dont you ask the gentleman with the saffron cloth around his shoulder



karan bhai u forgot to add this...
who is leading our nation..
JAI HIND


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## karan.1970

karan.1970 said:


> And while we were argueing here, the Indian Army and J&K Police despatched 2 more terrorists to meet their maker.. I wonder if all these terrorists and the ones being killed in NWFP and Afghanistan are getting together in hell and having a party
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rajouri: 2 more terrorists killed in encounter



The tally for today climbs to 4....Two more down...

J&K: Four more LeT militants killed in gunfight: Rediff.com India News


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## Mirza Jatt

karan.1970 said:


> The tally for today climbs to 4....Two more down...
> 
> J&K: Four more LeT militants killed in gunfight: Rediff.com India News



you are a gem. or shall i say santa claus with a bag of goodies?

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## karan.1970

Indian Jatt said:


> you are a gem. or shall i say santa claus with a bag of goodies?



Not me.. its the IA.. May be a welcome present for the new chief...

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## Aspirin

karan.1970 said:


> why dont you ask the gentleman with the saffron cloth around his shoulder



add to that they don't only RULE INDIA-->THEY RULE OUR HEARTS

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## Aspirin

Aspirin said:


> add to that they don't only RULE INDIA-->THEY RULE OUR HEART



something ZH should understand before conquering INDIA....

but lets stay to the topic-->go IA go


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## s6demon

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> YouTube - Massive Kashmiri croud shouting long live Pakistan in indian occupied Kashmir











I, in good conscience, cannot ignore the plight of our fellow Kashmiris. We can see how it feels when someone occupies your land and rapes and pillages with impunity and your plight goes unherd and unanswered.


again, I as a Pakistani cannot in good conscience stay quiet while these things happen to our fellow Kashmiris. I and many other Pakistanis will not abandon them to be picked off by the Indian nationalist and governmental hyenas.

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## Kabir Panthi

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> LOL
> And the kashmiris are fools protesting against crimes of occuping forces?rapes,encounter missing people etc.
> And people like yaseen malik,gilani,umar farooq and others with support of kashmiri people are lying and indians are saying the truth?
> While the whole world declares it disputed and HRC etc are reporting violation of basic human right and other herineous acts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Half a million occuping force sitting since 47 protecting kashmiris who are asking for freedom????protesting rapes,murders and kidnaps are all Pakistani terrorists?
> Wat a shame.
> Son dont watch to many bollywood flicks it makes u look retarded.
> 
> 
> :achu achu cough cough
> Sorry im allergIC TO BULL SHYT.



Dear fellow, check the transcripts of what was said in your own parliament by your own ex-ISI chief Gen Javed Ashraf Qazi.

That is the first step which you need to take to understand anything about Kashmir.


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## Kabir Panthi

s6demon said:


> I, in good conscience, cannot ignore the plight of our fellow Kashmiris. We can see how it feels when someone occupies your land and rapes and pillages with impunity and your plight goes unherd and unanswered.
> 
> 
> again, I as a Pakistani cannot in good conscience stay quiet while these things happen to our fellow Kashmiris. I and many other Pakistanis will not abandon them to be picked off by the Indian nationalist and governmental hyenas.



Nobody is denying that there are some indoctrinated youth. But what percentage of Kashmiris were in that protest march? 0.001%? 0.0001%? 

Why don't you first ask Pakistani terrorist groups to stop slaughtering Kashmiris in the thousands.

Further, since you value Kashmiri Azaadi so much, why don't you ask your government to allow the JKLF to contest elections in "Azad" Kashmir. 

Then we can talk.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

IBRIS said:


> Durand Line is expired. so, it's disputed territory for AFGHANS.



See my avatar & read the answer! .............................. now read it again & pass it to your N.A bhangis living in India!


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## Bang Galore

FreekiN said:


> *It's about time for the real Mujahideen to unleash a shitload of azz-whoopage onto India, just like they did to your big brother, Russia.*



24 hours later and not one single Pakistani member has criticised a naked call for terrorism directed at innocent people. A senior member has actually asked for and announced a decision welcoming murderous attacks against civilians in India similar to the horrific attacks in Russia. 

Forget all the hair splitting about what constitutes a terrorist attack which is a differentiation some Pakistani members have sought to make, this post is a open call of support for terrorism aimed at civilians without any caveats. The same Pakistani members are all too ready to jump on anyone saying even remotely similar about terrorism in Pakistani cities. Surely what's good for the goose must be good for the gander.

I must confess that I'm slightly disappointed even if not altogether surprised at this total lack of any kind of disapproval.

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## Iggy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I don't think anyone is defending and glorifying attacks on 'non-combatants'. Attacks on Indian security forces are legitimate. Are there militants that deliberately attack non-combatants - yes, and they should be condemned, just as the IA should be condemned for the tens of thousands of innocents it has massacred and tortured in J&K.
> 
> You can't just 'cherry pick' the atrocities by militants and give a free pass to the Indian and Indian controlled security forces.



No Agno i am not the one who is cherrypicking here..read my previous posts..i am showing the other side of the coin here..I am not saying our Army is saint..but members from other side is busy showing the atrocities of Indian soldiers convinently ignoring the facts that there are many rapings and killings done by militants...you are reading the posts from the begining..I dont see anyone condemning atrocities of militants anywhere in this thread..forget thread any where in this forum..rather some one defending them and others making propaganda out of it..


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## Iggy

For those who say let Kashmiries decide what they want let me ask you guys.when did Pakistan decide Kashmiries to choose for them selves..all the actions done by Paksitan regard to Kashmir is for the benefit of Pakistan only..Be it annexation of Giljit,part of Kashmir ceaded to China,or sending non-Kashmiries to Kashmir..The truth is that your country dont give a damn about what Kashmiries think about just like my country do..so its high time get down from your moral high horse ..


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## FreekiN

Bang Galore said:


> 24 hours later and not one single Pakistani member has criticised a naked call for terrorism directed at innocent people. A senior member has actually asked for and announced a decision welcoming murderous attacks against civilians in India similar to the horrific attacks in Russia.
> 
> Forget all the hair splitting about what constitutes a terrorist attack which is a differentiation some Pakistani members have sought to make, this post is a open call of support for terrorism aimed at civilians without any caveats. The same Pakistani members are all too ready to jump on anyone saying even remotely similar about terrorism in Pakistani cities. Surely what's good for the goose must be good for the gander.
> 
> I must confess that I'm slightly disappointed even if not altogether surprised at this total lack of any kind of disapproval.



*Learn what the Mujahideen were and where they came and what they did to the soviet invaders of Afghanistan before you go on ranting about some 'Terrorism.'*

If you haven't realized, Bosnia and Chechnya is nowhere near Afghanistan and their issue is totally different from Afghanistan's in the 70's and 80's. I do not support what the Chechen rebels are doing in Moscow, but what the Mujahideen did was gang up and kick out the Russians. Where was the suicide bombings then?

It's kind of funny how you support the Indian army's terrorism in Kashmir and think of them as some kind of 'liberators.' 

EDIT: My bad, I should have said a 'shitload of azz-whoopage onto the Indian *MILITARY*.' You must have took it the wrong way when I said, India, as if I wanted the Mujahideen to attack civilians. I see what you did there.


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## Jade

FreekiN said:


> *Learn what the Mujahideen were and where they came and what they did to the soviet invaders of Afghanistan before you go on ranting about some 'Terrorism.'*
> 
> If you haven't realized, Bosnia and Chechnya is nowhere near Afghanistan and their issue is totally different from Afghanistan's in the 70's and 80's. I do not support what the Chechen rebels are doing in Moscow, but what the Mujahideen did was gang up and kick out the Russians. Where was the suicide bombings then?
> 
> It's kind of funny how you support the Indian army's terrorism in Kashmir and think of them as some kind of 'liberators.'
> 
> EDIT: My bad, I should have said a 'shitload of azz-whoopage onto the Indian *MILITARY*.' You must have took it the wrong way when I said, India, as if I wanted the Mujahideen to attack civilians. I see what you did there.



Hey, FreekIN, I presume you do a lot of dreaming. Get your facts rights. Soviet invasion of Afghanistan is a different proposition altogether from Kashmir. Unless these terrorists have local support your dream of them azz-whoopaging India will remain a dream. If these terrorist could not even move India an inch from its stated position in the last 65 years, I have doubts whether they have the capability of doing so in future.

Jumping up and down doesnt change facts. Killing a terrorist is not terrorism, but is liberation. At least that is what we call in the free world. Would you call killing the Taliban an act of terrorism? Then you may have a different connotation of what terrorism is. In that case there no use of this debate.

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## FreekiN

jade1982 said:


> Hey, FreekIN, I presume you do a lot of dreaming. Get your facts rights. Soviet invasion of Afghanistan is a different proposition altogether from Kashmir. Unless these terrorists have local support your dream of them &#8220;azz-whoopaging&#8221; India will remain a dream. If these terrorist could not even move India an inch from its stated position in the last 65 years, I have doubts whether they have the capability of doing so in future.
> 
> Jumping up and down doesn&#8217;t change facts. Killing a terrorist is not terrorism, but is liberation. At least that is what we call in the free world. Would you call killing the Taliban an act of terrorism? Then you may have a different connotation of what terrorism is. In that case there no use of this debate.



Dream about what? The inevitable? 

You clearly have not learned to differentiate the Mujahideen from the Taliban, have you? Nor have you been capable of understanding who the Mujahideen were and where they came from. 

You actually think these guys blowing stuff up in Mumbai are Mujahideen? LOL! 

Noticably, you have been watching too much CNN-IBN. I am not 'jumping up and down', it's you who is not looking into the real history and facts of what has led up to the situation our countries are standing in today. The situation is much more complex than what Indian media and even the Pakistani media shows it to be, and lets it off easy by calling absolutely everything an act of terrorism and the gullible masses fall for everything they say.

Good day, sir.


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## Bingo!

Waiting for more good news like these.


These guys just keep coming back... dont they have anything else to do like doing a regular job and earning for their families??//


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## Jade

FreekiN said:


> Dream about what? The inevitable?
> 
> You clearly have not learned to differentiate the Mujahideen from the Taliban, have you? Nor have you been capable of understanding who the Mujahideen were and where they came from.
> 
> You actually think these guys blowing stuff up in Mumbai are Mujahideen? LOL!
> 
> Noticably, you have been watching too much CNN-IBN. I am not 'jumping up and down', it's you who is not looking into the real history and facts of what has led up to the situation our countries are standing in today. The situation is much more complex than what Indian media and even the Pakistani media shows it to be, and lets it off easy by calling absolutely everything an act of terrorism and the gullible masses fall for everything they say.
> 
> Good day, sir.



What is the inevitable? Is it India becoming more and more powerful as time goes?

As of categorizing, there is no difference between Mujahedeen and Taliban. Both make a living killing and terrorizing innocent people. What situation are you talking about? I cannot vouch for your country, but my country has progressed very much and has a better standing than it had ten years ago. Please, don&#8217;t say we are gullible neither are we easily influenced by the media; some of the Indian posters on this forum had education from some of best Universities and Institutions of the world.


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## TheBraveHeart

FreekiN said:


> It's kind of funny how you support the Indian army's terrorism in Kashmir and think of them as some kind of 'liberators.'
> 
> EDIT: My bad, I should have said a 'shitload of azz-whoopage onto the Indian *MILITARY*.' You must have took it the wrong way when I said, India, as if I wanted the Mujahideen to attack civilians. I see what you did there.



Look who's speaking?? Better read these and decide for yourself!! Hell to pakistan armies terrorism and brutality..
------------------------------------------------------------------
The Fascist Army
*Pakistan: A dream gone sour by fascist army*

Naveed Butt

Nations take great pride in their armed forces. Nations cherish them and protected by them. *In contrast, people of Pakistan have only suffered hardships and traumas at the hands of its own armed forces.
*
*The dream of an independent Pakistan has gone sour because of all the military generals who are acting no less than like a mafia or gang at national level. Imagine a mafia legally consuming more than 80% of the national resources and armed to the teeth with all kinds of weapons.*

The country suffered a great loss *in 1971 when its own Army surrendered in shame after committing one of the worst human right crimes in history and perpetrating the holocaust of three million people who were the citizens of Pakistan*. That was just the beginning.

In the last six decades *Pakistan Army has transformed into an organized crime syndicate and a business mafia that occupies the country it proclaims to defend*. This criminal organization is the biggest stake holder and stock holder in every big business of Pakistan by virtue of the power it has.

Pakistan military has the biggest share in Pakistan's stock exchange. It operates commercial bank, airline, steel, cement, telecom, petroleum and energy, education, sports, health care and even chains of grocery shops and bakeries.
In short, the militarys monopoly is present in every sector of Pakistan economy. To the contrary, its performance at the professional level is zero. *Instead of defending Pakistan, it has undermined the very foundations of this country*. Particularly, under General Musharraf, it has bankrupted Pakistan of its ideological grounds for existence. Instead of defending its physical borders, the army that is being ranked as the seventh biggest army in the world has only brought embarrassment to the nation in the battle fields of Kargil and Dhaka.* On top of that, since 2001, it has started acting like occupation force in many parts of the country. Bombing homes, mosques and schools has become a routine.*

Although the military permanently remained very active behind the political scene, the criminal Generals of Pakistan betrayed the nation four times by breaking their oath and constitution and overthrowing civilian governments.
They over threw elected government and captured the power to fulfill their evil desires and to protect the interests of their imperialist masters. The Pakistani Army has played an evil role in mainstream politics throughout the history with the objective to manipulate everything to their advantage.
*Even though Pakistan is a republic, the military Generals have ruled the country more than public representatives. It is because of these Generals that a peoples government could not take root in Pakistan.
*
*The Generals of Pakistan consider themselves above every law and they take pride in disobeying orders from civilian government.* It has been their practice since 1947. General Douglas Gracey, the first commander-in-chief of Pakistan Army started this tradition by disobeying orders from founder and Governor General of Pakistan, Mr. Jinnah during the first Kashmir War. Instead, Gracey sought instructions by telephone from his superior, Field Marshal Sir Claude Auchinleck, in New Delhi. Since then it has been a rule in Pakistan Army to break their oath and to take orders from outside. From Gracey to Musharraf, every last one of them used power to sabotage political process that could lead to self-rule and stability of the country. They have been serving their outsider masters instead of defending the physical and ideological borders of Pakistan.
Pakistan came into being in August 1947 but partition plan of India had been announced in June 1947. British divided national resources between two newly formed states. British army had been divided and according to this division six armored, eight artillery and eight infantry regiments formed Pakistan's army. Division of armed forces was according to demographic division of states and 4000 officers and 15,000 soldiers, 2332 Air Force personnel and 74 air crafts were given to Pakistan that was approximately 36% of total resources. General Douglas Gracey was acting Commander-in-Chief of Pakistan Army and Field Marshal Sir Claude Auchinleck, was still Commander-in-Chief of the armies of both India and Pakistan.

Soon after the independence, US started investing in Pakistan Army to prepare an agent in South Asia to thwart Soviet ambitions and use Pakistan like a South Asian Israel. US backed every criminal act of Army Generals to crush peoples rule in the country. Since the inception, this army has been serving as a tool in Washingtons strategic planning for the region. The US granted $400 million to establish and strengthen Pakistans armed forces initially. The US needed a terrorist arm in the region to play its strategic game against the Soviet Union. For this purpose, Washington backed successive dictatorships in Pakistan, and also throw them out of power when they outlived their utility.

*Indo-Pakistan War of 1947*

The first war between India and Pakistan began in October 1947 and ended in December 1948. At that time, both Pakistan and India were trying diplomatic process for the merger of Jammu and Kashmir. To sabotage diplomatic process, Pakistan Army played a cowardice game. Pakistan Army prepared armed tribesmen to infiltrate into Kashmir and upraise anarchy. This act of cowardice led to signing an instrument of accession with India in October 1947. Pakistan Army then joined infiltrators and a war broke out.

Initially Pakistani Army fought with armed forces of Kashmir and they gained significant successes. Maharajah of Kashmir thus requested Indian government for help and Indian government deployed its forces in November 1947. So far Pakistani forces had been facing resistance only from Kashmiri forces. That enabled them to enter far into Kashmir. After the deployment of India forces, Pakistan Army and Army-backed tribesman faced fierce resistance. Though Indian Army was facing serious logistic problems, it thwarted the advancement of Pakistan Army.

Indian Army suffered setbacks due to logistic problems and also that it was not prepared for a war just two months after partition, especially for a high altitude combat. Whereas Pakistan Army had planned and conducted this operation with the help of tribesman of NWFP, who were able to face extreme weather and mountain range. Still Indian army had been successful in regaining most of the area. In 1948, United Nation entered into conflict and broke a ceasefire in January 1949.

The cease- fire agreement formalized the military status quo, leaving about 30 percent of Kashmir under Pakistani control. Apparently it was a major success but in reality, it brought such a disaster to the Kashmir cause that it can still be witnessed. Pakistan lost 70 percent of the Kashmir territory in the process. *This created reluctance and hatred among Kashmiris for Pakistan and Pro-Indian Kashmiri political parties gained significant strength in Kashmir.*

*First Coup*

Pakistan's first democratic elections were scheduled in 1958. But a democratic government and a strong parliament was not in the interest of US foreign policy. General Mohammed Ayub Khan, the commander-in-chief, took over the government in a coup and cancelled the elections that were a threat for militarys blind power. Ayub Khan imposed Martial Law in the country and seized constitution. Under Ayub Khan rule, Pakistan became a US garrison state in South Asia. During this period, US granted $630 million directly and $670 million indirectly to purchase military equipment. US also paid salary of General Ayub Khan.

*General Ayub Khan, with the support of US, made every effort to thwart peoples self-rule in the country. He used every dictatorial method to shut voices against his brutal attacks on democratic process.* In this period, Ms. Fatima Jinnah, sister of the Founder of Pakistan, who was at that time most respected woman in Pakistan, raised voice against military dictatorship and criminal acts of the Generals. Ayub Khan and his companions played their dirty games to defame this respected lady.
*
War of 1965
*
During Ayub period, Pakistan army planned an operation against India after a green signal from Washington. Operation Giberaltar was planned to infiltrate and start rebellion in Jammu and Kashmir. Pakistani soldiers trained guerillas for infiltrating into Kashmir and starting an insurgency among local Kashmiris. This plan failed as locals did not respond as expected by the puppet military of Pakistan. Infiltrators were soon exposed and it resulted in a counterattack by Indian forces.

After the shameful failure of Operation Giberaltar, the coward army planned another Operation, called Grand Slam, to cover-up its embarrassment. The plan was to capture Akhnur, a north-eastern town of Jammu that was a key region for communication between Kashmir and the rest of India. This however resulted in more problems for Pakistan as India countered by crossing the international border further south in Punjab. As a result, a large scale war started between the two neighbors. The war lasted five weeks, resulting in thousands of casualties on both sides and ended in a United Nations (UN) mandated ceasefire. The war remained largely inconclusive despite Pakistan suffering relatively more losses.

Though the war was indecisive, Pakistan suffered much heavier material and personnel casualties compared to India. Many war historians believe that had the war continued, with growing losses and decreasing supplies, Pakistan would have been eventually defeated. The Pakistani Army's failures was apparent right from the beginning as Pakistan Army had expectations that local Kashmiri will support insurgency started by Pakistani soldiers. But the people of Kashmir, for whatever reason, did not revolt against Indian government. On the contrary they provided Indian army with information about Pakistani intruders.

Under the influence of controlled propaganda, many Pakistanis rated the performance of military positively and September 6 is celebrated as 'Defence Day' in Pakistan in commemoration of the successful defense of Sailkot against the Indian army. However facts are not always based upon emotions. This war left a lot to desire as Pakistan lost more ground than gained and more importantly Pakistan army did not achieve what was planned. War also imposed a huge burden on Pakistan's economy. It took a sever decline after witnessing some progress earlier.

The war also created a tense state of affairs between the two neighbors and both countries increased their defense budgets. Pakistan's spending on defense reached its height as Pakistan was spending 70% of its budget on defense needs in 1973. This extra burden brought negative impact on Pakistan's social and economic progress.

Another negative consequence of the war was the growing resentment against the Pakistani government in East Pakistan. Bengali leaders accused the government for not providing adequate security for East Pakistan during the war even though large sums of money were taken from the east to finance the war.

*Yehya Khan*

After the war, Genral Ayub Khan handed over the power to General Yehya Khan violating the constitution instead of holding general elections. *General Yehya Khan was a butcher in his nature and because of his incompetence Pakistan faced the greatest loss in its history.*

After the 1965 war, a strong resistance against military dictatorship and exploitation of Bengalis had started and Yehya Khan used his dictatorial method to solve political problems. *Under the orders of Yehya Khan, Pakistan army acted in fascist ways against it won people and committed worst crimes in East Pakistan.

To control the voices of protestors, the fascist army performed genocide on its own land. With American Support and military aid, Pakistan Army butchered three million Bengalis and raped Bengali women in 1971 only because Bengali leaders were asking for provincial autonomy and an end to exploitation of the people of East Pakistan.*

That is the Army way to handle political problems. That is the policy of every dictator to slaughter everyone who dares to speak against dictatorship. Every dictatorship in the world practices the same policy. But Pakistan Army is unique in this matter that Pakistani soldiers killed their own people. They did not spare anyone. They massacred innocent unarmed citizens in colleges, schools, roads and even in mosques.

Atrocities by Pakistani soldiers in East Pakistan shocked the world and conscientious people from around the world condemned crimes of Pakistan Army. Genocide in East Pakistan and human rights crimes led to another war with India in 1971. As a consequence of this war and atrocities of Pakistani soldiers, Pakistan had to loose a large part of its territory which became an independent state, called Bangladesh today.
*
War of 1971*

To control the protests against exploitation and dictatorship in East Pakistan, in March 1971, Pakistani Army started a planned genocide in East Pakistan called 'Operation Searchlight' to curb Bengali nationalist movement. This operation ended in December 1971 and resulted in deaths of three million Bengali people. Indian Government at this time expressed full support for the people of East Pakistan. America was providing full support and military aid to fascist Pakistani soldiers. Indian government launched a successful diplomatic campaign against Pakistani military's crime on a grand scale.

To cover their embarrassment in international forums, Pakistan's military rulers launched an offensive air strikes on north-western Indian border. However, the Indians had anticipated such a move and the raid was not successful. The Indian Air Force launched a counter-attack and quickly achieved air superiority. Pakistan Army counter-attacked India in the West in an attempt to capture territory which might have been used to bargain for territory they expected to lose in the east. The land battle in the West was crucial for any hope of preserving a united Pakistan. The Indian Army quickly responded to the Pakistan Army's movements in the west and made some initial gains, including capturing around 5,500 sq miles of Pakistan territory.

At sea, the Indian Navy proved its superiority by the success of Operation Trident, the name given to the attack on Karachi's port. It also resulted in the destruction of 2 destroyers and one minesweeper, and was followed by the successful Operation Python. In every field, Pakistan Army faced heavy losses. The war ended in a crushing defeat for Pakistan military in just a fortnight. Pakistan's general Niazi, who was titled as 'Tiger Niazi' for killing innocent un-armed civilians appealed for a cease-fire and surrendered in extremely shameful manner. As a result, East Pakistan became Bangladesh. Pakistan lost a half of its navy, a quarter of it Air-Force and a third of its army. India captured 93000 Pakistani soldiers as prisoners of war. India wanted to put them on trials for their war crimes in East Pakistan but eventually released them as a gesture of reconciliation.

After this shameful defeat, General Yehya Khan resigned and handed over power to Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, an elected leader and thus democracy started being restored eventually. It was against the Interest of foreign policy of US, who had spent a huge amount in Pakistan Army. Bhutto's policies were leaning towards Soviet Union while US has established a fascist terrorist arm in the form of Pakistan Army. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto remained in power from 1971 to 1977.
*
Zia-ul-Haq*

*In July 1977 the military, led by General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq, staged a coup. Zia removed Bhutto from power, held him in detention and later persecuted and hanged him*. Zia pledged that new elections would be held in 90 days. He kept postponing the elections and eventually took all power in his hand. He ruled the country for 11 years that is the longest period in Pakistan's history till date. General Zia imposed Martial Law in 1977 and assumed the post of president in 1978. He secured his position by a rigged referendum in 1984 and in 1985 he eased Martial Law and announced non-partisan election. Zia handpicked a dummy Prime Minister to show the world that he is restoring democracy. Muhammad Khan Junejo who could not breath without the Generals permission was sacked in 1988.

Zias period is not only longest but darkest too as during this time, historical places were turned into prisons for those who raised voice against military dictatorship and it became a routine to arrest, punish and persecute intellectuals who dared to speak. This period was full of brutality, suppression and fear. A number of intellectuals fled from Pakistan and many were sent to specially set up torture cells. He imposed his policies in the name of Islamization to get support from religious schools. This Islamization was directly imported from Washington and was based on violence for serving American interest in the name of Islam and Jihad in Afghanistan. Results of his Islamization are clearer after nine years.

General Zia was an actual employee of US. After holding the power, he started a proxy war on the orders from his US masters against Soviet Union. He proved himself as the most reliable instrument for his imperialist masters. In his period, Pakistan was flooded with military aids from US. Zia was performing as a middleman between US and tribesman of Afghanistan who were fighting against Soviet Union. General Zia did everything to serve his Washington-based masters from training of Afghan fighters to sending Pakistanis to Afghan war. In his period, religious schools became training camps for militants. Whole country was flooded with arms and ammunitions and it resulted in a continuous state of violence in the country that is present to date.

Zia's rule witnessed heightened tensions with neighboring states. He was instrumental in providing military assistance to Mujahideen fighting in Afghanistan against Soviet Occupation and then later diverting them to the Kashmir cause in the late 1980s. During his time as President, Zia was also accused several times by Indian premier Indira Gandhi (and later Rajiv Gandhi) of training Sikh insurgents and sending them to destabilize India.
Under the orders from Washington, Zia provided logistic support to Afghan Mujahedeen and opened Pakistani borders for Afghanistan. A great number of refugees fled into Pakistan and the country faced a huge burden on its economy. Zias era is also remembered as the golden age for drug trafficking. This period was also golden for criminals as all sorts of arms and ammunition became easily available throughout the country.

Zias greed for more and more power led him to introduce theocratic laws without the broader context and without fulfilling other basic requirements for implementing those lasws. It was a show to win support in the name of Islam. He imposed total censorship on media and he introduced a controversial Hudood Ordinance to win support from religious fundamentalist groups. Human rights Organizations have been criticising the implementation of this law and they accuse that this law has been being abused to suppress half of the population of Pakistan. This infamous ordinance was introduced to control adultery but in itself this ordinance protected rapists. Under this ordinance many rape-victims were arrested and sent to prison because they could not produce witness to meet the standard of this ordinance. Zia also banned women from participating in sports activities.

With continuous support of the US, General Zia became the most powerful and cruel ruler of the country. He declared Pakistani constitution as a 'rag of paper'. The person who polluted the soil of Pakistan with drugs, arms and corruption died in an air crash in 1988. Officially his death remains a mystery as no one dares to point a finger towards the actual mastermind behind the plot.
General Zia also militarized the bureaucracy systematically. By the order of his government, 5% of all new posts in the higher civil service were to be filled by army officers who, consequently, occupied important civilian positions. Successive democratically elected governments did not rescind this order due to the power wielded by Pakistan Army. Under Pakistan's current military government, militarizing the bureaucracy is again pursued.

*Fragile Democracy*

After the death of General Zia-ul-Haq, Ghulam Ishaq Khan became caretaker president of Pakistan and he held elections in the country to restore democracy. Benazir Bhutto, daughter of Zufiqar Ali Bhuto, former Prime Minister who was persecuted by Zia-ul-Haq won with heavy majority and her victory proved how much hatred Zia-ul-Haq had earned. Military supported president Ghulam Ishaq Khan dissolved National Assembly just after twenty months and forced new elections. In fact fascist military Generals could not tolerate the popularity of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto who was still alive in the hearts of people of Pakistan even after an 11 years long period of suppression.

In upcoming elections of 1990, Nawaz Shareef became Prime Minister. Elections of 1990 were fully controlled by Military and Nawaz Shareef was actually a hand-picked Prime Minister. But Nawaz Shareef soon demanded for restoration for real democracy that could never be tolerated by Generals. Nawaz Shareef's started standing against Army mafia. However, Ghulam Ishaq Khan was still president of Pakistan and was acting as a front-man of the military Generals. He removed Nawaz and dissolved National Assembly.

In the 1993 elections, the Generals did not have any dummy to appoint and Benazir Bhutto won with a heavy majority again. This time Benazir came in office with more power and she removed Ghulam Ishaq Khan from office. In 1996 she was removed from office again on the charges of corruption and bad governance. This time again Nawaz Shareef who had become a national level leader by now won with such a huge majority and popularity that the Generals felt threatened. Nawaz Shareef had now understood politics of the fascist Generals and he wanted to control their games.

Nawaz Shareef had been doing his best to restore democracy in the country and in his second tenure he secured extreme popularity in the country. He was the second leader in Pakistan who became so popular in a short period after Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto. Nawaz Shareef proved himself a sensible leader and he did not give any chance to US to support Pakistan Military to destabilize democracy.

*Kargil War
*
In 1999, Generals played another nasty game to weaken democracy in the country. At this time Nawaz Shareef was working for the peace with Indian Government which could jeopardize the status quo which the military wanted to maintain. The Generals found it a golden opportunity and launched a plan to infiltrate Kashmir. They started an operation in Kargil with the help of some fundamentalist militant organizations. The situation was embarrassing for Nawaz Shareef. He came under pressure from the whole world especially from the USA. In furious state, Nawaz Shareef used his constitutional power and dismissed General Parvez Musharraf who was the mastermind behind Kargil operation.

Kargil war started after military operation code named Operation Badar in 1999. In the beginning Pakistan Army supported intruders and provided logistic support. As a result, they captured Indian Positions at a time when Indian forces had left positions due to cold weather. Due to extreme weather, it was a common practice in both militaries to leave such positions in winter and re-occupy them in spring. Pakistani paramilitary forces took control of Indian positions but Indian forces responded and forced them back to the line of control.

Pakistan Military tried to capture Kargil posts with the help of intruders but Indian forces responded with mobilization of 20,000 troops to the line of control. Indian troops soon secured most of their territories and India also launched a diplomatic campaigned on international level that had been successful and this rogue misadventure by a fascist Army brought embarrassment to the nation. *International Media titled Pakistan Army as 'The Rogue Army' for its coward act*. Pakistan has been criticized for the criminal activities of its Military and international community forced Pakistan to withdraw its troops from Kargil.

Pakistan faced the loss of approximately 4000 troops and extreme damage to the morale of Military. As a result of this fascist act of violating the Line of Control by Pakistan Army, Pakistan faced the possibility of isolation and Pakistan's economy tumbled. Image of Pakistan shattered in international community. The ongoing peace process with India stopped. Prime Minister who was under pressure from international community tried to constitute a committee to investigate. Nawaz Shareef wanted to bring Parvez Musharaf under charge for such irresponsible action.

Tension between Prime Minister and Army chief arose on the issue of investigation. the Army chief, according to the traditions of Generals, started acting arrogantly. Army Chief, who was responsible for the loss, was afraid of investigations and under such fears he started ignoring constitutional orders from Prime Minister. He challenged the writ of democratic government and as a result, Nawaz Shareef issued the orders of dismissal of Army Chief to maintain the writ of parliament.

*General Pervez Musharraf*

As it had been the policy of Fascist Generals to never perform their constitutional duty and accept orders from Federal Government, General Musharraf refused to accept orders and captured the capital in a military coup in 1999. Generals once again murdered the democracy. General Musharraf arrested the elected Prime Minister and later exiled him. Musharraf charged Nawaz Shareef with accusations of corruption and bad governance.

Such charges of corruptions and bad governance always had been a lame excuse for military coups. Politicians all over the world are charged with such accusations but they do not solve such problems with military coups. It is only Pakistan's fascist army that uses its power to destabilize democracy and over-throw civilian government. It is evident that generals of Pakistan are more corrupt than politicians. Their only problem is that they cannot let democracy be strengthened.

General Parvez Musharraf hijacked power and illegally held the office of president. of Pakistan. He followed the footsteps of his predecessor General Zia-ul-Haq and used every dictatorial method to sabotage democratic process in the country. He used every brutal tactic to control voices of protest. He crossed every limit in serving his US master in order to remain in power. He is the first dictator of Pakistan who follows every command from Washington keeping aside national integrity.
*
General Parvez Musharraf started Military operation in his own land to control protests against his dictatorship and repeated the story of East Pakistan. Pakistan Army started brutal operations in Waziristan and Balochistan to control the people who are demanding their basic rights. General Musharraf recently killed a nationalist leader from Balochistan, Nawab Akbar Khan Bugti who had been a strong voice against Military dictatorship and the due rights of his people. Conditions in Balochistan are being worsened and the exploited people are feeling insecure and frightened.*

Under the Musharraf rule, the whole country has become a cantonment. Military is dominating the life in Pakistan. Fascist Army has captured every civil institution including schools, universities, factories, hospitals, public offices and public utility services. Pakistan Army has grabbed a large area of state owned land and it is being allotted to Military officers. They are looting all resources of the nation. Musharraf government is also selling profitable national assets at throw-away prices and getting huge kickbacks. Such corruption cases have been exposed before the Supreme Court but Musharraf is misusing his power and using every dictatorial method to control protests against his corruptions.

People of Pakistan are under a continuous state of fear under Musharraf rule. People are afraid to speak as they have seen how Military rulers killed Nawab Bugti for raising voice against dictatorship. Even international media is silent because Musharraf is being supported by his Washington based masters. Price for the fascist acts of Generals is being paid by common Pakistanis who are suffering poverty and humility.

General Mushararf, following the footsteps of his predecessor generals, forced censorship on media. Government banned websites and newspaper in Balochistan who were reporting the atrocities of Pakistan Army in Balochistan. At some occasions, the government also blocked a reputable news resource 'South Asia tribune' that published the reports of corruption of Generals. They have also blocked some other websites that publish reports on military operation in Balochistan.

Many journalists and activists were kidnapped by agencies and a large number of citizens have disappeared in the past few years. Reporters Sans Frontiers, International Organization of journalists ranked Pakistan as No. 12 in worlds most restricted press in 2006 because of Musharrafs continuous attacks on the freedom of press.

More recently Pakistan Army raided a religious school in NWFP, killing more than 83 students, accusing them of terrorism. Most of these students were under 14 years of age and no evidence of any weapon or suspicious activity was found. Government also banned journalist to enter in the premises of bombed school. This act of Mushararf is extra-judicial murder and human rights organizations condemned Musharraf regime for such operation without investigation.

International Fund for Peace declared Pakistan a failed state in 2006 because of the policies of General Musharraf. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have condemned the criminal policies of the fascist General. Transparency International ranked his government as most corrupt in the history of Pakistan. But he is not willing to leave the office, ignoring protests going on in the country, condemnation worldwide and worsening situations of homeland security, national economy and human rights.

Land of Pakistan has been suffering the rule of these ambitious and opportunist military Generals denying people their right to self-determination and dancing at the tunes from Washington and London. It is the responsibility of conscientious people from around the world to raise voice against this cruel dictatorship and show support and solidarity with the people of Pakistan who had been a victim of cruelty of its Fascist Army sine 1952.


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## TheBraveHeart

More on occupied kashmir..

How Azad is `Azad Kashmir'
*How Azad is `Azad Kashmir'*
By Sultan Shaheen

*If you want to study the situation in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and cannot go to even the minuscule part of this region designated as `Azad Kashmir', the best place to go to is England. Bradford, Birmingham, Nottingham, Luton, Slough and Southall are perhaps even better sources of information about the *** than Muzaffarabad, Mirpur, Bagh Rawalakot and Kotli. For the Kashmiris living in Britain breathe free air that it not much available in the so-called Azad Kashmir. Even if you so much as apply for a job you have to sign an affidavit saying you believe in the ideology of "Kashmir banega Pakistan" (Kashmir will become Pakistan).
*
I happened to be in England on the eve of recent election in `Azad Kashmir'. Meeting `Azad' Kashmiris in Britain proved revealing. The politically active among them have organised themselves on the lines of politics back home. Nearly all political organisations and ideologies are represented. They all appear to be working against India and, except JKLF, pro-Pakistan. Their activities range from the ridiculous to the more sober. I come across some Tehrik-e-Kashmir activists in Birmingham attempting to impose a boycott of Tilda rice supposedly imported from India. They are aware that India is far too big and powerful a country with a vast capacity to take losses to be bothered with such nonsense. But they think this helps them spread hatred against India. On the other hand they are making a serious and somewhat successful attempt at lobbying political parties, media and bureaucracy to convince them of the genuineness of their case against what they call Indian occupation of Kashmir and serious human rights violations.

But this is a superficial impression. Beneath the surface, most of them are disgusted with Pakistan and many of them find India's handling of its part of Kashmir, despited the obvious difficulties and current hostilities, more commendable. *Several people, for instance, mentioned that while India has respected Kashmir's age-old practice of not allowing outsiders to settle down in the valley, Pakistan has allowed over 28,000 Afghan families to settle down and fleece the local populace in the name of Jihad. These Afghans are even more exploitative that the Hindu baniya ever was, they point out.*

The comparisons are endless.* Kashmiris in the valley are better educated and better skilled. They have their own university with medical and engineering colleges.* Some of us, particularly Mirpuris may be more prosperous, they say, but that is only because we managed to come to England when we were virtually thrown out of Pakistan as we lost our livelihood in the wake of the construction of Mangla Dam. The reference to Mangla Dam always brings out either complete silence in pro-Pakistan circles or vociferous protest from those who are not so particular about living with Pakistan. This Dam is said to supply 65% of the electricity needs of Pakistan, but the so-called Azad Kashmir does not get any royalty. Pakistan's Water and Power Development Agency (WAPDA) is estimated to be earning over Rs. 50 crores from the electricity produced at Mangla, thought the total budget of the Azad Kashmir is in the vicinity of Rs. 10 crores.

*The most talked about issue, of course, is that of Northern Areas which has been virtually swallowed by Pakistan Army. It comes in the news periodically only when there are Shia-Sunni clashes in the area of firing by the Army to quell anti-government demonstrations. In a historic judgment when a Kashmiri chief justice of the High Court dared to say a couple of years ago that the area was a part of Kashmir and had been illegally occupied by Pakistan Army, he instantly became a hero. Similar enthusiasm was shown by the Kashmiris towards Raja Mumtaz Hussain Rathore, the last PPP `Prime Minister' of the so-called Azad Kashmir, who started taking up the issue of Northern Areas followed his dismissal and detention by the last Nawaz Sharif government.*

This leads any discussion in the direction of almost complete denial of democracy to the so-called Azad Kashmir. While India has at least one or two free and fair elections in the valley, notably in 1977 and 1983,* the Pakistani Establishment has dismissed and installed governments of `Azad Kashmir' at will.* The only party that has not been able to do so is Ms. Benazir Bhutto's Pakistan People Party as it is not considered a part of Establishment even when in power.

It is hardly surprising in view of such perceptions of the Pakistani Kashmiris that they throw out Sardar Qayyoom's obscurantist Muslim Conference which has ruled them for most of the last half a century at the first available opportunity. They did that in 1990 and they have done that now. Sardar Qayyoom's protestations of massive rigging by the PPP government in Islamabad is unbelievable. All that she had to do to win elections there was not to concede Sardar Qayyoom's demand of allowing the Army to conduct elections.

*ELECTION EXPOSE SIMMERING DISCONTENT IN *** OBSCURANTIST INDIA-BAITERS FACE MASSIVE DEFEAT*

Sardar Abdul Qayyoom Khan's ruling Muslim Conference has been virtually wiped out in the small part of Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (***) designated as "Azad Kashmir" where generally farcical elections are held intermittently to buttress the fiction of its Azadi. He has blamed massive rigging for his defeat. This is predictably music to Indian ears. We have ourselves faced similar allegations in international as well as sections of national media in regard to recent elections in our part of Kashmir. But by playing up Sardar Qayyoom's incredible claims in our media and in the diplomatic circuit, we are simply playing in the hands of Pakistan's right wing obscurantists, Army and the Inter-Service Intelligence (ISI).

Indian media pundits and bureaucrats may have valid reasons to regard the ruling Pakistan People Party headed by Ms Benazir Bhutto and even its so-called Azad Kashmir branch as communal or obscurantist and anti-India. Obviously they must have more impeccable sources of information and intelligence. But the people of the so-called Azad Kashmir have been consistently told since the formation of PPP itself that it is secular, anti-Islam, anti-Pakistan and pro-India. The Pakistani media, the Sardar Qayyoom government, indeed the entire Pakistani Establishment has indulged in this propaganda on the largest possible scale for years. And yet they have chosen to give a massive mandate to this supposedly secular, progressive, pro-India party. Whether or not the PPP is secular and pro-India is not the issue. The fact that despite this widespread perception, the people of this piece of *** have chosen to elect it again must mean something to us in India. There is so clearly some message in this massive PPP victory and we should try to understand and interpret it in this light. Our hatred for Pakistan seems to have blinded us and we are reacting mindlessly.

Sardar Qayyoom's party has ruled the so-called Azad Kashmir (I prefer to use this term rather that the popular ***, as this area is actually less than half of the ***) for most of the last half a century. He has himself ruled as President as well as Prime Minister for decades. he retains the love and affection of the military-bureaucratic and feudal-industrialist complex that rules Pakistan as ever. He is the darling of the obscurantist elements in the Pakistani Opposition, despite his son Sardar Ateeq's shenanigans. he had himself come to power in the present instance through a farcical election following an undemocratic and immoral, though constitutional and legal, dismissal and even detention of the last Prime Minister Raja Mumtaz Hussain Rathore who headed a duly elected People's Party government.

*The rule in Pakistan is that the movement changes hands in Islamabad, the so-called Azad Kashmir government is dismissed and a new one installed through a farce of an election unless this happens to be a Muslim Conference government headed by Sardar Qayyoom. *Following this glorious tradition the last Muslim league government headed by Mr. Nawaz Sharif had dismissed Mr. Mumtaz Rathore, detained him and installed Sardar Qayyoom. But Ms. Benazir Bhutto's PPP has never been allowed to follow this tradition. When she came to power a couple of years ago, she was widely expected to reinstall Mumtaz Rathore. She would not have required to rig the elections to do so. For reasons that we will discuss later the people of the so-called Azad Kashmir are fed up with the Sardar Dynasty. Indeed Ms. Bhutto is not capable of rigging elections there or anywhere else.

Ms. Bhutto came to power for the first time having won elections that followed President Zia-ul-Haq's death in August 1988, she was told that as chairperson of the Kashmir Council, she had the power to dissolve the Kashmir Assembly order fresh elections. She was considering the popular demand for dismissal of the Muzaffarabad government. But Sardar Qayyoom criticised Ms. Bhutto's policy of normalisation with India "to undo the Islamic ideology and weaken the Pakistan Army". He wrote to President Guhlam Ishaq Khan: "We will not allow a pro-India government in Azad Kashmir," He made it clear that he would not accept the electoral verdict if the PPP won. And despite all the pressure from the people of Pakistan Occupied `Azad' Kashmir and her party she could not topple the Sardar government. Sardar Qayyoom completed his tenure in 1990.
*
Informed people are aware that Pakistan is ruled by a troika. A Pakistan Prime Minister can only do things with the concurrence of Washington and the local Establishment which includes the Army, ISI, Bureaucracy, Business, Feudal and Obscurantist elements*. Ms. Bhutto's PPP was allowed to stay in power because for a variety of reasons not germane to this discussion she was for the moment begin tolerated by the two other parts of the troika. But she had very obvious limits to her power. She had enough powers thought to ensure that elections in the so-called Azad Kashmir are not rigged by any part of the troika including the Pakistani Establishment which would have loved to see Sardar Qayyoom back in power. All that she needed to do was not to concede Sardar Qayyoom's persistent demand to allow the Army to conduct the elections.

Why did Ms. Bhutto allow Sardar Qayyoom during her second term to continue for so long and complete his full term again is thus no mystery. She was under intense pressure from the Sardar government. But she continued to be so incensed with Mr. Nawaz Sharif who had earlier dismissed and detained the PPP Prime Minister Raja Mumtaz Rathore that she was seriously considering taking them on in this case. This was when, according to my sources in PPP, a new element entered into the picture which proved decisive and finally saved the Sardar government.

President Laghari of Pakistan visited India and met a delegation of Kashmir valley's pro-Pakistan leaders. This delegation pleaded with him to persuade Ms. Bhutto not to dismiss Sardar Qayyoom. Their argument was that in the absence of Sardar Qayyoom the network supporting militancy in the valley would be disturbed. A PPP government there can obviously not be trusted to support the right wing network. Their second argument was even more important. Islamabad dismissing a duly elected Muzaffarabad government without any apparent reason, thought constitutionally valid and legal, would be clearly immoral and undemocratic that it would weaken their case that Kashmir's identity and autonomy would better protected by Pakistan that it is with India. Even though Pakistan has a history of such undemocratic dismissals, this particular dismissal at the height of militancy in the Valley would prove disastrous, so pleaded Hurriyat leaders. Despite all his sophistication and persuasive arguments, my sources tell me, it took President Laghari two and a half hours of intense pleading to dissuade Ms. Bhutto from dismissing Sardar Qayyoom's government.

One wonders if the pro-Pakistan Hurriyat leaders in the valley are now pleading with Sardar Qayyoom not to accuse PPP government in Islamabad and his own government in Muzaffarabad of massive rigging in the elections. For, this too weakens their case of Kashmir's accession with Pakistan. It brings to light the farcical nature of `Azadi' in the so-called Azad Kashmir. Of course, even *this so-called Azadi is not available to the hapless people of the majority area of the Pakistan occupied Kashmir designated as Northern Areas.* *The vast areas of Gilgit and Baltistan have simply vanished from the face of the earth as far as the Pakistan Constitution and other legal documents are concerned, though until 1954, Pakistan used to supply maps that showed these territories as a part of Kashmir.*

The Muslim Conference alleging massive rigging is indeed ridiculous. The People's Party massive mandate in Azad Kashmir represents not so much its own popularity as it articulates the disgust of the `Azad' Kashmiris with Pakistani Establishment. The Muslim Conference is seen as this Establishment's local representative despite its regional character. Ironically, the People's Party Kashmir unit is seen as more representative of the regional aspirations despite this Party's all-Pakistan character.

The plight of Azad Kashmiris calls for a separate write-up. What we can say here is that economic factors like lack of development of any industry, communication facilities, exploitation of Mangla dam for providing electricity to 65 per cent of Pakistan without any compensation, no local university, no local bank, no new bridges over the river Jhelum and so on do weight heavily on the minds of `Azad' Kashmiris, what they resent most is their virtual slave status in the Constitution, new tensions in the wake of settlement of over 28,000 Afghan families, militant training camps and the inevitable rise of obscurantism due to almost uninterrupted half-a-century rule of the Muslim Conference. They have been told for years now that the accession of Kashmir valley to Pakistan is round the corner. But neither the proud Suddhan tribals, nor the wealthy Mirpuris (most of them have relatives in England) are prepared to accept the inevitable domination of the better educated and numerically stronger `hatos' as they contemptuously refer to the Kashmiris of the valley in case Kashmir is united.
*
An Open Letter:*
What are you doing with Hurriyat, Yasin Malik?

It is easier for an Indian to sympathise with you, regardless of the folly of your pursuit. With your emaciated body, you are the only Gandhi-like figure on the kashmir horizon. Despite your militant past, the country appeared to have accepted your protestations of peade when you renounced violence. Released from captivity, you received the best media attention any Kashmiri leader had got, perhaps with the solitary exception so Shabir Shah. But when you went on fast for three days in Delhi nevently to focus attention on human rights violations in Kashmir, there was hardly an mediaperson or realy any one else around. I wonder if you have been wondering why.

I wanted to ask you-what are doing with Hurriyat, Yasin Saheb?-when I visited you on the second day of your fast. But you were in no dondition to converse. You have been taking so much on yourslef, despite ill-health. Also, the question would have been a trifle awkward with so many Hurriyat leaders, including Chairman Mirwaiz Omar Farooq surrounding you.

You and Shabir Shah are the two prominent leaders who are associated with peaceful means of protest as well as what is called the third option, independence from both India and Pakistan. As other members of the Hurriyat Conference still stand for accession with Pakstan your association with Hurriyat has always been rather intriguing. Now this question has acquired some urgency with the recent declarations of the Hurriyat chief during his recent trip abroad. At a news conference in Washington, he said: "No Third Option exists on Kashmir. All components of All-Parties Hurriyat Conference, despite their diversity have accepted this. The Kashmiris have to decide in a plebiscite whether they should opt for India or Pakistan."

Hurriyat's total and rather desperate dependence on Pakistan become even more pronounced during the last SAARC foreign ministers' conference in Delhi. Senior Hurriyat leaders like Umar Farooq, Sayed Ali Shah Geelani adn Professor Abdul Ghani met the visiting Pakistani foreign minister Sahabazda Yaqub Khan and criticised Islamabad's efforts to improve trade relations with India. They felt Pakistna's business interests might overshadow the political aspirations of the people of Jammu and Kashmir. Since Pakistan seemed keen to remove trade barriers with India under the SAARC agenda, they feared it might ultimately not give that much importance to the Kashmir issue.

That Pakistan was getting ready to dump the Kashmiris and perhaps concentrate on improving its battered economy had become clear to me, Yasin Shaeb, several months ago. You couldn't have forgotten what happened in Leicester, U.K. last August. Expartriate Kashmiri leader Dr. Ayyub Thukar had organised a conference of Kashmiri leaders from India Pakistan as well. No one turned up from Pakistan. This became particularly embarrassing for the organisers because two people arrived even from India - the present writer and Mr. Subodh Kant Sahai. Finally, Islamabad, probably after much coaxing and cajoling, instructed its deputy High Commissioner in London to attent the conference who was able to reach there only for the last session.

One can hardly blame Pakistan, though, for this state of affairs. In the case of proxy wars this is almost routine. This is what Shah of Iran did with Mulla Barzani's Kurdish secessionist movement in Iraq. This is what Saddam Hussain does with Iranian Kurdish secessionists in Iran. Support them, use them, sell them and dump them is virtually the norm.

As Pakistani pro-occupation with tis impending political and economic disintegration grows, Hurriyat is bound to grow even more desperate. It is bound to shout louder and louder from rooftops higher and higher ist protestations of loyality to Pakistan. It is for leaders like you, Yasin Saheb, to think if Hurriyat is correctly representing your point of view. Shabbir Shah has proved smarter. He has manoeuvered himself out of Hurriyat at the right time. I wonder if you would reconsider your position vis-s-vis Hurriyat before it is too late for you to extricate yourself out of the mess that Hurriyat is beginning to sense it has got itself into.

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## jbond197

FreekiN said:


> *Learn what the Mujahideen were and where they came and what they did to the soviet invaders of Afghanistan before you go on ranting about some 'Terrorism.'*
> 
> If you haven't realized, Bosnia and Chechnya is nowhere near Afghanistan and their issue is totally different from Afghanistan's in the 70's and 80's. I do not support what the Chechen rebels are doing in Moscow, but what the Mujahideen did was gang up and kick out the Russians. Where was the suicide bombings then?
> 
> It's kind of funny how you support the Indian army's terrorism in Kashmir and think of them as some kind of 'liberators.'
> 
> EDIT: My bad, I should have said a 'shitload of azz-whoopage onto the Indian *MILITARY*.' You must have took it the wrong way when I said, India, as if I wanted the Mujahideen to attack civilians. I see what you did there.



You have such a big misunderstanding, Mate!! A simple question to you.. with whose backing do you think these Mujahideen fought against Soviet Army? Who provided financial and military equipment support to them? Do you really think they would have been able to move an inch without support and training from USA forces?

Dude! Rule of the game is that you need to be economically capable to back the war you are planning to fight.. The guys in Afghan war had sound financial support from Uncle Sam. Tell me how much financial backing Pakistan will be able to do for them just in case they plan to attack Indian Army..


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## Kompromat

Bad News , May the Mujahideen succeed in their Freedom struggle .

Indian occupation would end one day & Indian Dictatorship wont last very long on Kashmir .


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## Kompromat

thebrownguy said:


> 6 more lives go down the shahadat drain!! Man, these guys need to realize that this armed struggle will fetch nothing!!!



Same applies to Bhagat singh ?


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

For the ignorant, half the cost of afghan jihad was borne by Saudis. 
Secondly, US encouraged Jihad at the time.. do watch Charlie wilson's War and see US Senator chanting Allah hu Akbar.
In any case, we being mere mortals and subject to His will, we are all used for different purposes. It is irrelevant what faith US has in that sense. 
USSR was doomed. US & its people are also people of the book ( ahle kitab) so God used his people for a purpose!

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## Bang Galore

People who compare Russia in Afghanistan with Kashmir forget one very important fact; Russia did not see Afghanistan as a part of its country(then USSR). There was a cost/benefit analysis at work there, not so in Kashmir. India is not about to do an analysis on those lines. We see this as part of our country and no cost is too high to defend it. If we did not budge in the north east all those years ago, we certainly are not going to do so in Kashmir no matter what anyone thinks. 

The only resolution of Kashmir will be a negotiated one that's acceptable to India, anyone dreaming otherwise has been guilty of smoking things other than a peace pipe.


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## indian_warrior

Black Blood said:


> Same applies to Bhagat singh ?



Your comparison Bhagat singh with these people shows your education system. I am happy now, IA job is short cut. Self destruction is eminent.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/16/AR2010011602660.html

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## Optimus

Bang Galore said:


> People who compare Russia in Afghanistan with Kashmir forget one very important fact; Russia did not see Afghanistan as a part of its country(then USSR). There was a cost/benefit analysis at work there, not so in Kashmir. India is not about to do an analysis on those lines. We see this as part of our country and no cost is too high to defend it. If we did not budge in the north east all those years ago, we certainly are not going to do so in Kashmir no matter what anyone thinks.
> 
> The only resolution of Kashmir will be a negotiated one that's acceptable to India, anyone dreaming otherwise has been guilty of smoking things other than a peace pipe.



Right on the spot


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## jbond197

atmi_chuza said:


> For the ignorant, half the cost of afghan jihad was borne by Saudis.
> Secondly, US encouraged Jihad at the time.. do watch Charlie wilson's War and see US Senator chanting Allah hu Akbar.
> In any case, we being mere mortals and subject to His will, we are all used for different purposes. It is irrelevant what faith US has in that sense.
> USSR was doomed. US & its people are also people of the book ( ahle kitab) so God used his people for a purpose!



This is ridiculous.. You think that US supported Afghan war just because both they and Afghans were people of book.. I am afraid you are wrong. The support was in US's self interest in form of restricting the spread of communism and counter the strength of U.S.S.R in CAR region.

Yes Saudis funded them but then Saudis are again US puppets.. I have not seen them acting against any interests of US. But to the case in point why would any of these nations fund the mujahideens anymore when no threat of Soviet or Communism exists?


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## karan.1970

Black Blood said:


> Bad News , May the Mujahideen succeed in their Freedom struggle .
> 
> Indian occupation would end one day & Indian Dictatorship wont last very long on Kashmir .



Another Gajwa-e-Hind dream


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## TheBraveHeart

*Operation Khoj in Kashmir: biggest offensive against terrorists?*
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Operation-Khoj-in-Kashmir-biggest-offensive-against-terrorists/H1-Article1-526906.aspx
A senior army commander on Saturday claimed that the operation against terrorists in Rajouri in Jammu and Kashmir for the past week was one of the biggest in recent years.

The operation was codenamed 'Operation Khoj' or operation search. It started on March 27 and went on till April 2.

General Officer Commanding (GOC) of counter insurgency Uniform Force Major General M.M.S. Rai told reporters in Reasi on Saturday that *the offensive against terrorists left 16 terrorists of the Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) dead in the past one week and six soldiers also lost their lives in gun battles with the terrorists.*

"This was one of the biggest operations in Rajouri in recent years," he said. He claimed that the "army acted swiftly and in time and neutralized the terrorists before they could move up in hills and cause any major damage."

"During these operations we have eliminated all the 16 militants in four different encounters and this was possible due to the cooperation of Jammu and Kashmir police and other paramilitary forces, particularly Central Reserve Police Force."

The army also recovered satellite phones, AK-47 rifles from the militants.

"All the terrorists belonged to the LeT group," he said.

Gen. Rai said that the army has stepped up its vigil and all the major routes were being "intensely patrolled".

Four terrorists and an army soldier were killed in a gun battle in Jammu and Kashmir's Reasi district on Friday.

The first contact with the militants was made in Dharmsal area of Kalakote in Rajouri March 27 and two terrorists were killed.

The second contact took place in Thrayth on Tuesday, triggering an 18-hour gun battle that lasted into Wednesday and left four guerrillas and three soldiers dead.

Six terrorists were killed in Rajouri district on Thursday.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

While we sleep and rest at home these brave men of Indian army are vigilant for our security .....A final salute to the departed souls and also to the others involved in the operation...

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## gowthamraj

who is head of let, put aim to him


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## PAKFA

Best of luck to Indian army , I hope they will be successful without causality.


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## Justin Joseph

Killing the terrorist will not achieve much as their trainers, financier and masters are free and safe.

The need is to launc a major covert operation to eliminate them and build a strong permanent network there who will monitor those threats at the planning level and eliminating them before reaching our shores.


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## brahmastra

God-Speed


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## TheBraveHeart

Army foils infiltration bid along LoC, two militants killed
PTI, Apr 4, 2010, 12.45pm IST


SRINAGAR: Army today foiled an infiltration bid and killed two militants along the Line of Control in Kupwara district of Jammu and Kashmir.

Troops guarding the border noticed some movement in Keran sector near the LoC, 140 km from here, a defence spokesman said.

The infiltrators opened fire at the security personnel and in the ensuing gunbattle two ultras were killed, he said, adding that search operation is on in the area. 
------------------------------------------------------------------
wonder whether the home ministry and intelligence agencies have any role to play in it coz the speed of flushing out these terrorists has certainly increased with fewer casualties on our side!!!


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## TheBraveHeart

*Slain Pakistani militants were Punjabi speaking
Infiltrators trapped due to lack of guides*

By Sanjeev Pargal

JAMMU, Apr 3: Absence of guides and complete lack of local support is reported to have contributed a lot in eliminating 16 dreaded Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) militants, 15 of whom were Pakistanis, in Rajouri district within a week. The militants were "very well motivated, trained and hardcore which was evident that they fought with security forces and police for several hours before being killed. Five Army jawans attained martyrdom while killing the ultras and a SHO was among the injured.

At least dozen slain militants were commanders, who had to take over command of the dwindling cadre of the LeT outfit in different areas. An equal number of 12 satellite telephones were recovered from the ultras. A satellite phone is given by Pakistan Army and ISI only to the militants of commander rank.

Official sources quoting the communication intercepted between militants and Pakistan Army officials across the Line of Control (LoC) told the Excelsior that the ultras were frequently asking their mentors in Pakistan about the route they had to take to reach Mahore and Kulgam.

The intercepts revealed that senior Pakistan Army officials with the help of some militants of this side were giving direction to militants on satellite telephones and other mode of communication with them to take the help of Global Positioning System (GPS) and Army pattern maps with them. A number of times, the militants managed to take right track after getting directions from across.

Sources said excepting one, the militants didnt receive support of any guide or local to brief them about the route or give them shelter which led to elimination of 16 of them in four operations within a week. Mohammad Aslam alias Qasim, a resident of Thanol, Mahore was the only local militant, who had received the foreigners at Kalakote forests and was taking the group of five Pakistanis to Mahore but he too was eliminated by Army and police.

"The militants were virtually stranded in Kandi, Kalakote and Dharamshal forests as they were not finding any help from the local people, which indicated that the people were disenchanted with the ultras, SSP Rajouri Shafkat Wattali, who led police parties in week long operation, said.

He added that inputs were still pouring in about the presence of three to four more militants between Kalakote and Dharamshal forests. "We have not given up searches, he said, adding the militants, however, have not been spotted and it was being ascertained as to whether they were part of fresh infiltrated group or already operating in the area.

Sources said the militants appeared to have intruded from multiple points on March 23 and 24 between Pallanwalla-Sunderbani-Nowshera LoC. At least 10 militants, who were killed near Kandi in Rajouri district appeared to be heading towards Budhal to take Pir Panjal route to reach Kulgam while other militants eliminated at Kalakote and Dharamshal forests were on way to Mahore in Reasi district.

All 15 Pakistani militants killed so far were Punjabi speaking indicating that they hailed from Punjab province of Pakistan. "All militants were battle hardened and were carrying very sophisticated communication system with them. The way they kept engaged security forces and police for hours together before being killed indicated that they had been trained in LeT camps for two to three years, sources said.

While earlier, Pakistan Army and ISI had been trying to push small group of militants from LoC and IB ranging between three to five, this was after a long gap that they pushed large group of militants on a single day. Infiltration by the big group was aimed at strengthening the depleting strength of the LeT outfit in different areas of the State especially in the areas where the Lashkar ultras had been rendered headless after liquidation of their commanders by Army and police during last few months.

The Pakistan Army was intending to put command of local militants to Pakistanis to co-ordinate their activities, recruit more local youths and revive their activities, sources said, adding the killing of 15 Pakistanis ultras in a week besides a local has foiled all plans hatched across the LoC and delivered a big blow to the militant outfit.

The militants were carrying ammunition, much above than normal , which pointed out that a large part of it had to be distributed among the existing cadre in different parts of the State.

According to sources , the infiltration of eight militants from Jogma area of Pallanwalla sector was confirmed as the ultras had been spotted by Army, the intrusion by other Pakistanis had gone unnoticed though it too was reported to have taken place along LoC in Pallanwalla-Sunderbani-Nowshera route.

"Had the militants managed to reach their destination, they would have created a mayhem as all 15 Pakistanis were well trained and well equipped with sophisticated weaponry, they said

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## deckingraj

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well we have lost 6 brave mens....this is painful and disgusting to know....Yes we manage to kill 16 pigs but cost of raising such pigs vs transforming boys into men is way higher and their loss is more painful then joy of getting rids of these terrorists....This proxy war needs to be bring to a halt sooner than later....

I would prefer a limited conflict over this proxy war any point in time...

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## manish123

deckingraj said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Well we have lost 6 brave mens....this is painful and disgusting to know....Yes we manage to kill 16 pigs but cost of raising such pigs vs transforming boys into men is way higher and their loss is more painful then joy of getting rids of these terrorists....This proxy war needs to be bring to a halt sooner than later....
> 
> I would prefer a limited conflict over this proxy war any point in time...



Yes! pakistan can keep up on sending thousands of these guys.I find no pleasure and would like your option.


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## TheBraveHeart

@deckinraj & @manish123

I would like to differ with ur views for certain reasons
1. A limited conflict can always escalate into major one, cause such conflicts once begun cann't be predicted....
2. It would bring the International community's intervention just like in Kargil and many compromises would have to be made..Also India wants bilateral settlements without foreign pressure..
3. chances of pakistan bragging about nuclear weapons and following implications on the whole of south asia..
4. the economy gets hit and foreign investors might keep off for years..
5. Heavy mobilization and the cost of conflict even if limited
6. chances of the general masses being hit

But, ur right about the casualty figures ...In my honest opinion the security forces should start secret attacks similar to Israeli agents..although it is not foolproof but it may lead to a kind of internal chaos and possible destruction.....


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## karan.1970

deckingraj said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Well we have lost 6 brave mens....this is painful and disgusting to know....Yes we manage to kill 16 pigs but cost of raising such pigs vs transforming boys into men is way higher and their loss is more painful then joy of getting rids of these terrorists....This proxy war needs to be bring to a halt sooner than later....
> 
> I would prefer a limited conflict over this proxy war any point in time...



Think about it.. A limited war will still kill a lot of Indian military men and at the same time kill our economy for next 5-10 years. For our enemies, the second damage actually spells victory, irrespective of the result of the war.. Why give them the satisfaction. The loss hurts, but the IA is increasing its effectiveness over last few years.. The gain is not in terms of their people killed vs ours.. Its thwarting their designs, which is to weaken the Indian nation...

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## manish123

karan.1970 said:


> Think about it.. A limited war will still kill a lot of Indian military men and at the same time kill our economy for next 5-10 years. For our enemies, the second damage actually spells victory, irrespective of the result of the war.. Why give them the satisfaction. The loss hurts, but the IA is increasing its effectiveness over last few years.. The gain is not in terms of their people killed vs ours.. Its thwarting their designs, which is to weaken the Indian nation...



I agree though my sorrow lets me get carried away.The least we can do is take the fight into enemy land and give them a taste of their own medicine covertly


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## dabong1

deckingraj said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Well we have lost 6 brave mens....this is painful and disgusting to know....Yes we manage to kill 16 pigs but cost of raising such pigs vs transforming boys into men is way higher and their loss is more painful then joy of getting rids of these terrorists....This proxy war needs to be bring to a halt sooner than later....



Watch your mouth!.....otherwise you will get as good as you give and the post will end up getting derailed by name calling.


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## dabong1

Not long until the ratio killed will be equal and then we will see and increase with more indian occupation army being killed then freedom fighters.


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## dabong1

Pakistan has given more then enough time to india to make postive moves in IOK and forfilled indian demands only to see the indian add more demands........time to turn the tap back on.


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## Hulk

Karan has it right, they will be more then happy if we go for a war. We have to be intelligent, since we have progressed war is something we want to avoid more and they are trying to take advantage of it. The technology is growing fast with regards to anti terrorism and infiltration and soon it will become very difficult to conduct a terrorist activity and that is the way to go.

Things are getting better in Kashmir, violence is declined and it is going to be that way this year too. Nobody believed violence will in end in Indian Punjab but it did right.

There are many aspect.
1) Local gets boarded/ lose sympathy if infiltration carries for long duration as it makes their life hell.
2) We get better and learn skills and buy more weapons.
3) World community thinks this as a threat and will support us.

I guess Kashmir is taking the same route as Punjab, everything has a up and down. Kashmir violence has seen it up, now its going to go down, have patience.

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## RobbieS

dabong1 said:


> Pakistan has given more then enough time to india to make postive moves in IOK and forfilled indian demands only to see the indian add more demands........time to turn the tap back on.



We can see that, a country that uses terrorism as a state policy. Just hope you remember your words when Pakistan is paid back in the same currency.

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## dabong1

RobbieS said:


> We can see that, a country that uses terrorism as a state policy. Just hope you remember your words when Pakistan is paid back in the same currency.



When you attack people in kashmir it must be "anti-terrorism" but when you get attacked its "terrorism".
The indian army is the terrorist in kashmir.
Its alright for you use state terrorism in kashmir but not alright for pakistan to back the freedom fighters.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

RobbieS said:


> *We can see that, a country that uses terrorism as a state policy*. *Just hope you remember your words when Pakistan is paid back in the same currency*.



Yeah india uses terrorism as its state policy be it 71 or present ur always there.
Also U ripe wat u sow.
And i hope u also remmember ur dirty proxy wars be it LTTE,TTP,MUKTI BHANI,BLA,Sindu desh Or anything else.


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## karan.1970

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Yeah india uses terrorism as its state policy be it 71 or present ur always there.
> *Also U ripe wat u sow.*
> And i hope u also remmember ur dirty proxy wars be it LTTE,TTP,MUKTI BHANI,BLA,Sindu desh Or anything else.



Remember the reap what you sow comment next time a blast tears thru some part of Pakistan. Heaven forbid...

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## DESERT FIGHTER

karan.1970 said:


> *Remember the reap what you sow comment next time a blast tears thru some part of Pakistan. Heaven forbid*...




In tht case ill remember the Indian proxy and Banya mindset of indian establishment...And pray for a swift fruit for the indians sown on afghan soil.
You dig.


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## RobbieS

dabong1 said:


> When you attack people in kashmir it must be "anti-terrorism" but when you get attacked its "terrorism".
> The indian army is the terrorist in kashmir.
> Its alright for you use state terrorism in kashmir but not alright for pakistan to back the freedom fighters.



You count blowing up railway tracks as fighting the occupying forces? Who are these terrorists trying to harm by blowing up tracks? Its the common awam of Kashmir. 

And yes, its not alright for Pakistan to back the so called freedom fighters, not when they are blowing up tracks and stalling development. 

And sometimes, just sometimes when I hear people like you supporting terrorists, I dont mind the bomb attacks on your cities. As one of your friends said, *as you sow, so you reap.*


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## RobbieS

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Yeah india uses terrorism as its state policy be it 71 or present ur always there.
> *Also U ripe wat u sow.*
> And i hope u also remmember ur dirty proxy wars be it LTTE,TTP,MUKTI BHANI,BLA,Sindu desh Or anything else.



Talking about sowing and reaping - No wonder your own people are fighting your army. Your border areas are beyond your control where the writ of the Taliban runs and US drones strike with impunity. 

*You sow extremism and cross border terrorism and you reap death!*


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## karan.1970

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> In tht case ill remember the Indian proxy and Banya mindset of indian establishment...And pray for a swift fruit for the indians sown on afghan soil.
> You dig.









TALK TO THE HAND

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## DESERT FIGHTER

RobbieS said:


> Talking about sowing and reaping - No wonder your own people are fighting your army


.
And wat has tht got to do with sowing and reaping?
unless we forced our own people to fight us?
Anyways most people know tht TTP is supported by @ss.... sitting in kabul.Who will bear the fruits of there proxy seeds.



> Your border areas are beyond your control where the writ of the Taliban runs and US drones strike with impunity.


Last time i checked waziristan,bunner,orakzai,swat,malakand was freed of indian proxy seeds and n.waziristan wwas under the microscope of army?
And drone strikes tht kill fukin ttp were done with agreement of GOP.



> *You sow extremism and cross border terrorism and you reap death!*



Exactly, u better learn it by heart.
Some consider awaking khalistan,kashmir and others as a sign of the almost ripping crops india had sown earlier.
You Dig?


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## Areesh

There is no need to debate on this issue as we have seen many debates like this on this forum. I asked Indians to do whatever they can to quell the insurgency, if they can... No offense. I think the great Indian army can do something to destroy these "terrorists"...


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## RobbieS

Areesh said:


> There is no need to debate on this issue as we have seen many debates like this on this forum. I asked Indians to do whatever they can to quell the insurgency, if they can... No offense. I think the great Indian army can do something to destroy these "terrorists"...



In case you haven't noticed, the insurgency is at its lowest levels of the last decade. Blowing up tracks shows their level of desperation. We know their foreign masters wont give up harboring them so easily so we opened up another front. The tactic seems to be working.


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## Areesh

RobbieS said:


> In case you haven't noticed, the insurgency is at its lowest levels of the last decade. Blowing up tracks shows their level of desperation. We know their foreign masters wont give up harboring them so easily so we opened up another front. The tactic seems to be working.




Keep the strategy going may be in some upcoming decades you might quell them completely and we might not see any thread like this one. My best wishes to Hindustani Sena.

Go Go...


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## RobbieS

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> .
> And wat has tht got to do with sowing and reaping?
> unless we forced our own people to fight us?
> Anyways most people know tht TTP is supported by @ss.... sitting in kabul.Who will bear the fruits of there proxy seeds.



Yes, you forced your own people to fight you by first indoctrinating them against the Russians, then using them to control Afghanistan and then back stabbing them when the US grabbed your balls and forced you to support the WoT. The dog is indeed biting the hand that fed it.



> Last time i checked waziristan,bunner,orakzai,swat,malakand was freed of indian proxy seeds and n.waziristan wwas under the microscope of army?
> And drone strikes tht kill fukin ttp were done with agreement of GOP.



Exactly. Done with the agreement of GoP. F@$kin spineless, your army. Allowing its own people to be killed by foreign forces. 



> Exactly, u better learn it by heart.
> Some consider awaking khalistan,kashmir and others as a sign of the almost ripping crops india had sown earlier.
> You Dig?



Wake up whatever you want. You aren't getting anywhere. First free your balls from the American fist and then we'll talk. 

And I dont need to dig, you guys are so good at digging your own graves.


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## RobbieS

Areesh said:


> Keep the strategy going may be in some upcoming decades you might quell them completely and we might not see any thread like this one. My best wishes to Hindustani Sena.
> 
> Go Go...



Thanks. We will keep at it untill the weed is crushed.


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## karan.1970

dabong1 said:


> Watch your mouth!.....otherwise you will get as good as you give and the post will end up getting derailed by name calling.



I agree.. Lets keep the abuses out of this..


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## karan.1970

dabong1 said:


> Not long until the ratio killed will be equal and then we will see and increase with more indian occupation army being killed then freedom fighters.



As Gulshan Grover says in one of the movies

"Allah na kare"


On a serious note.. What you are hoping for is going to be more and more difficult as the initial learning curve of the Indian army in fighting against urban terrorists is now flattening out. The initial unpreparedness factor of Indian Army is no longer working in the favor of these terrorists. As a matter of fact, if you pull up last few years' data, you will see the trend actually going in the other direction. For example, the recent operation Khoj, where 16+2 of these terrorists were hunted down and killed was one of the few proactive operations launched by IA where it prevented these guys from coming into the population centers and neutralized them much before that.. And this will improve further as these battalions stationed in these areas start getting equipped with specialized equipment bought from Israel.. 

Soon hell is going to be a crowded place, because inshahallah that's where these terrorists are gonna go...


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## karan.1970

indianrabbit said:


> Karan has it right, they will be more then happy if we go for a war. We have to be intelligent, since we have progressed war is something we want to avoid more and they are trying to take advantage of it. The technology is growing fast with regards to anti terrorism and infiltration and soon it will become very difficult to conduct a terrorist activity and that is the way to go.
> 
> Things are getting better in Kashmir, violence is declined and it is going to be that way this year too. Nobody believed violence will in end in Indian Punjab but it did right.
> 
> There are many aspect.
> 1) Local gets boarded/ lose sympathy if infiltration carries for long duration as it makes their life hell.
> 2) We get better and learn skills and buy more weapons.
> 3) World community thinks this as a threat and will support us.
> 
> I guess Kashmir is taking the same route as Punjab, everything has a up and down. Kashmir violence has seen it up, now its going to go down, have patience.




And in the meantime, go thru this..Chanakyaniti at its best..

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/44215-monkey-trap.html


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## karan.1970

manish123 said:


> I agree though my sorrow lets me get carried away.The least we can do is take the fight into enemy land and give them a taste of their own medicine covertly



We already are.. Though not in a violent way.. Every time India is given more importance in world affairs, its a battle won. Everytime a World Economic Forum identifies India as a prefered destination for Capital Investment, its a victory...And in the long run, these victories matter more..Its due to these victories in last 20 years that today, we have an economic muscle to (probably) cajole France to cancel the JF 17 deal .. or are able to be the customer of the largest ongoing defence deal in the world..



So while the death of our soldiers is regretable, its part of a larger game where India is able to keep this nonsense localized and contained by spending a small part of its resources while the balance part of resources are expended in growing economically. 

So next time we enjoy the fruites of India's economic growth, remember it's in part due to these folks, who are standing on the wall with a gun in their hands...(Jack Nicholson: A few good men)


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## Areesh

prithwidw said:


> We do not recognize any disputed status. The whole of Kashmir is our land including P-O-K, as said by GoI. What do you suggest we do, to resolve this matter for ever?



Give the rest of the IOK independence since it doesn't belong to you. and send the army to fight with Maoists. Issue resolved. As far as Azad Kashmir is concerned you don't have the right to even dream about it, the only right you have over Azad Kashmir is that you can download the pictures of this beautiful valley and enjoy them.


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## indian_warrior

Areesh said:


> Give the rest of the IOK independence since it doesn't belong to you. and send the army to fight with Maoists. Issue resolved. As far as Azad Kashmir is concerned you don't have the right to even dream about it, the only right you have over Azad Kashmir is that you can download the pictures of this beautiful valley and enjoy them.



Ok. As you said. How come Zadari missing exparts opinion?


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## dabong1

RobbieS said:


> You count blowing up railway tracks as fighting the occupying forces?



So you dont have a problem if they attack the army but do have a problem with them attacking the railroad?




RobbieS said:


> Who are these terrorists trying to harm by blowing up tracks? Its the common awam of Kashmir.



The common awam does not want the indian occupations army there.....how come your not concerned then.



RobbieS said:


> And yes, its not alright for Pakistan to back the so called freedom fighters, not when they are blowing up tracks and stalling development.



And i bet the indian army doesnt use the railroads to carry on the occupation. 



RobbieS said:


> And sometimes, just sometimes when I hear people like you supporting terrorists, I dont mind the bomb attacks on your cities. As one of your friends said, *as you sow, so you reap.*



When i hear people like you support state terror and the killings and injustices in kashmir i also dont mind when mumbai attacks happen and bombs go off in your cities........*as you sow, so you reap.*


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## dabong1

RobbieS said:


> In case you haven't noticed, the insurgency is at its lowest levels of the last decade. Blowing up tracks shows their level of desperation. We know their foreign masters wont give up harboring them so easily so we opened up another front. The tactic seems to be working.



In case you failed to notice it was pakistan that stopped the freedom fighters from crossing over and that bought violence down in the last decade and not the indian army........you had more then a decade to sort the problem out but showed your true colours with doing nothing.
At least the pakistani public-politicians-army can see that you will not move an inch on kashmir as long there is a sword not hanging over your head......you going have to bleed to stay in kashmir and where going to make you bleed.


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## ambidex

dabong1 said:


> When you attack people in kashmir it must be "anti-terrorism" but when you get attacked its "terrorism".
> The indian army is the terrorist in kashmir.
> Its alright for you use state terrorism in kashmir but not alright for pakistan to back the freedom fighters.



First tell us your nationality before ranting like a head less chicken son.
Lets us do your dissection and discussion after that. Dont try to be a smart a$$ you are Chinese isnt it a champion of genocide.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

RobbieS said:


> Yes, you forced your *own people to fight you by first indoctrinating them against the Russians*, then using them to *control Afghanistan* and then *back stabbing them when the US grabbed your balls and forced you to support the WoT*. The dog is indeed biting the hand that fed it.



Lol are afghans our people?
2)They were resisiting the russians before we joined the war...or should i say USA joined and started COLD WAR,providing weapons and training....
And 3)How did we control afghanistan when USA betrayed them and left them with stock piles of weapons?
Indeed common sense is rare to find in ur town.


> *Exactly. Done with the agreement of GoP. F@$kin spineless, your army. Allowing its own people to be killed by foreign forces. *


B.S
If drones are fuking indian supported TTP fuks should we stop em for killing ur children????
Collatral dammage is always there in a war thts why the area undergoing ops has been evacuated.
So u mighty like to shut the B.S and ur F@$kin spineless govt. using proxys.
F@kin dikL3s.



> Wake up whatever you want. You aren't getting anywhere. First *free your balls from the American fist *and then we'll talk.


Are u a homosexual???or just obsessed with the balls of Pakistanis is ur habit???
Anyways we dont have our balls in nobodys fist.
And have u freed ur *** from other poverty and 75% poor,AIDs,prostitution?AID???then we ill talk


> And I dont need to dig, you guys are so good at digging your own graves.



Looks like ur running out of wood for cremation?
And now u have to DIG?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ambidex said:


> First tell us your nationality before ranting like a *head less chicken son.*
> Lets us do your dissection and discussion after that. Dont try to be a smart a$$ you are Chinese isnt it a champion of genocide.



Lol u defined urself perfectly.And Dabong isnt chinese hes from AJK(Azad Jammu Kashmir).


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## ambidex

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Lol u defined urself perfectly.And Dabong isnt chinese hes from AJK(Azad Jammu Kashmir).



So what, you have defined your self and your mulla mindset dont you. I was asking question to some one else, dont try to define urself unwanted.


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## VrSoLdIeRs

as india had 60+ years to inject her 'faithfuls' in kashmir n settling them... why cant she hold a simple census under the UN agenda and whatever the results atleast one party would shutup!!!! either pakistan or india!!!


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## Raje amar

Islamabad, Pakistan (CNN) -- Three explosions went off in rapid succession near the U.S. consulate in the Pakistani city of Peshawar Monday.

At least one person was killed in the blasts but officials expect the casualty count to rise.

The blasts in the capital of the North West Frontier Province came hours after a suicide attack killed 30 people and wounded 50 others in another part of the province.

Peshawar is about 120 kilometers (75 miles) from the country's capital, Islamabad.

The three explosions went off within a span of 15 minutes in the area of Saddar and Hayatabad Avenue, near the American consulate and the Peshawar headquarters of Pakistan's intelligence agency. The latter was the target of a deadly car bomb attack in November.

The U.S. Embassy in Islamabad would only confirm that an attack had taken place, adding it would offer more in a statement later.

Following the triple blasts, two people were taken to the Lady Reading Hospital -- one of whom later died, said Dr. Abdul Hamid Afridi.

The North West Frontier Province is rife with Islamic extremists and has been the site of recent clashes between Pakistani security forces and militants.

Monday's suicide attack took place at a rally for the province's ruling Awami National Party in the lower Dir district, said lawmaker Mehmood Zeb Khan.

Hundreds of the participants had gathered for a rally to change the name of the province to Khyber Pakhtunkhwa.

The bomber walked into the government building where the meeting was going on and blew himself up, said provincial spokesman Mian Iftikhar Hussain.

Triple blasts hit northwest Pakistan capital near U.S. consulate - CNN.com


is it the work of freedom fighters too???**

cant the Pakistanies discriminate between thses terrorists???? *do you realy think Bhagat Sings is one of them!!!!!*


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## mjnaushad

Raje amar said:


> Islamabad, Pakistan (CNN) -- Three explosions went off in rapid succession near the U.S. consulate in the Pakistani city of Peshawar Monday.
> 
> At least one person was killed in the blasts but officials expect the casualty count to rise.
> 
> The blasts in the capital of the North West Frontier Province came hours after a suicide attack killed 30 people and wounded 50 others in another part of the province.
> 
> Peshawar is about 120 kilometers (75 miles) from the country's capital, Islamabad.
> 
> The three explosions went off within a span of 15 minutes in the area of Saddar and Hayatabad Avenue, near the American consulate and the Peshawar headquarters of Pakistan's intelligence agency. The latter was the target of a deadly car bomb attack in November.
> 
> The U.S. Embassy in Islamabad would only confirm that an attack had taken place, adding it would offer more in a statement later.
> 
> Following the triple blasts, two people were taken to the Lady Reading Hospital -- one of whom later died, said Dr. Abdul Hamid Afridi.
> 
> The North West Frontier Province is rife with Islamic extremists and has been the site of recent clashes between Pakistani security forces and militants.
> 
> Monday's suicide attack took place at a rally for the province's ruling Awami National Party in the lower Dir district, said lawmaker Mehmood Zeb Khan.
> 
> Hundreds of the participants had gathered for a rally to change the name of the province to Khyber Pakhtunkhwa.
> 
> The bomber walked into the government building where the meeting was going on and blew himself up, said provincial spokesman Mian Iftikhar Hussain.
> 
> Triple blasts hit northwest Pakistan capital near U.S. consulate - CNN.com
> 
> 
> **
> 
> cant the Pakistanies discriminate between thses terrorists???? *do you realy think Bhagat Sings is one of them!!!!!*


OFF TOPIC.


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## KS

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Then the GoI would be wrong, since the status of J&K is disputed. The status of Swat, FATA and K-P is not disputed. Karan referenced the latter, not AK.



First - Congratulations to the warriors of the IA for killing 6 more pests.
Second - The official position of GOI is Kashmir as a whole is an integral part of India and I as an Indian would beleive only wat my govt says,not an impotent UN or some cyber warriors out here

Thirdly - UN resolutions have lost their meaning or atleast India has lost interest in them .No plebiscite is ever going to happen nd no amount of shounting,typing,ranting is gonna change that.

The sooner pakistan wakes up to the reality the better for u guys..Till then bring it on.The lions of the IA are waiting for the pigs.

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## KS

s6demon said:


> not according to the whole world and the Kashmiris themselvs. hell even some educated Indians.



hoohoo...as if we care wat the world or the impotent UN thinks.


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## KS

@Karan.1970
hey buddy...plz gimme the link for indian flag. thx


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## Mirza Jatt

Karthic Sri said:


> @Karan.1970
> hey buddy...plz gimme the link for indian flag. thx



http://www.buddy-icons.info/img/smile/1465.gif

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## karan.1970

Karthic Sri said:


> @Karan.1970
> hey buddy...plz gimme the link for indian flag. thx



http://www.defence.pk/forums/members/karan-1970-albums-t0-picture2532-flag.gif

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## riju78




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## KS

Its High time we start adopting Israel's policy of going for the head rather that cutting the nails wich are bound to grow again.
Send Indian agents..take out the terrorist leader scums in their safe havens...Unless we adopt a more pro-active approach this low-intensity conflict will on forever.

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## deckingraj

TheBraveHeart said:


> @deckinraj & @manish123
> 
> I would like to differ with ur views for certain reasons
> 1. A limited conflict can always escalate into major one, cause such conflicts once begun cann't be predicted....
> 2. It would bring the International community's intervention just like in Kargil and many compromises would have to be made..Also India wants bilateral settlements without foreign pressure..
> 3. chances of pakistan bragging about nuclear weapons and following implications on the whole of south asia..
> 4. the economy gets hit and foreign investors might keep off for years..
> 5. Heavy mobilization and the cost of conflict even if limited
> 6. chances of the general masses being hit
> 
> But, ur right about the casualty figures ...In my honest opinion the security forces should start secret attacks similar to Israeli agents..although it is not foolproof but it may lead to a kind of internal chaos and possible destruction.....







karan.1970 said:


> Think about it.. A limited war will still kill a lot of Indian military men and at the same time kill our economy for next 5-10 years. For our enemies, the second damage actually spells victory, irrespective of the result of the war.. Why give them the satisfaction. The loss hurts, but the IA is increasing its effectiveness over last few years.. The gain is not in terms of their people killed vs ours.. Its thwarting their designs, which is to weaken the Indian nation...




Very valid point that you guys have made...Mind it i am not a war mongerer and i want peaceful co-existence with our neighbours.... I know when it comes to India and Pak emotions run high....Anyways lets look at other figures as well...The number of people who have died in Kashmir(civilians and Armed forces) and the kind of money we have spent in past 2 decades....Also please share with me one single reason that you guys think this will stop in next 2 decades??? Just look at the cost of raising a terrorist vs grooming an officer....

I have a very simple question...Why are we spending so much on our Armed forces if we cannot even save our men dying every now and then??? I know the solution i am proposing is insane(in fact it is not even a solution) but then is there a solution???? Is what we are doing the right step???? Imagine the king of distress the Jawan has to go while on duty and his/her family after he is killed by some fanatic eager to reach heaven...and now complement it with a fact that a meagre amount of money can raise several thousands of such pigs no matter how many you shoot down...Just yesterday our Armed forces said that terror infrastructure is still in tact....Do you see any hope in its dismantling if it hasn't happened even under such circumstances????


Anyways seems like my post has angered and disappointed a few members..So let me clarify...What i said is that i would prefer a limited conflict over a proxy war any time as tragedy in one go is better than a prolonged tragedy...This way both the armies can decide who is the boss of Kashmir...It was a hypothetical wish far from reality... I hope i made myself clear...




dabong1 said:


> Watch your mouth!.....otherwise you will get as good as you give and the post will end up getting derailed by name calling.


Ummmm i am not sure what offensive words i used??? All i said is about a preference of a limited conflict over proxy war...I did not say we will kick PAk army or anything like that...So can you please share what pissed you off??...if convinced i will go ahead and edit my post..Fair???

Thanks....


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## deckingraj

Karthic Sri said:


> Its High time we start adopting Israel's policy of going for the head rather that cutting the nails wich are bound to grow again.
> Send Indian agents..take out the terrorist leader scums in their safe havens...Unless we adopt a more pro-active approach this low-intensity conflict will on forever.



Remember it is low intensity conflict for the agressor...Look at the number of people we had/have stationed in Kashmir and the time period involved...IMO this by no means is a low intensity conflict for us....


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## TheBraveHeart

deckingraj said:


> Very valid point that you guys have made...Mind it i am not a war mongerer and i want peaceful co-existence with our neighbours.... I know when it comes to India and Pak emotions run high....Anyways lets look at other figures as well...The number of people who have died in Kashmir(civilians and Armed forces) and the kind of money we have spent in past 2 decades....Also please share with me one single reason that you guys think this will stop in next 2 decades??? Just look at the cost of raising a terrorist vs grooming an officer....
> 
> I have a very simple question...Why are we spending so much on our Armed forces if we cannot even save our men dying every now and then??? I know the solution i am proposing is insane(in fact it is not even a solution) but then is there a solution???? Is what we are doing the right step???? Imagine the king of distress the Jawan has to go while on duty and his/her family after he is killed by some fanatic eager to reach heaven...and now complement it with a fact that a meagre amount of money can raise several thousands of such pigs no matter how many you shoot down...Just yesterday our Armed forces said that terror infrastructure is still in tact....Do you see any hope in its dismantling if it hasn't happened even under such circumstances????
> 
> 
> Anyways seems like my post has angered and disappointed a few members..So let me clarify...What i said is that i would prefer a limited conflict over a proxy war any time as tragedy in one go is better than a prolonged tragedy...This way both the armies can decide who is the boss of Kashmir...It was a hypothetical wish far from reality... I hope i made myself clear...
> 
> 
> 
> Ummmm i am not sure what offensive words i used??? All i said is about a preference of a limited conflict over proxy war...I did not say we will kick PAk army or anything like that...So can you please share what pissed you off...if convinced i will go ahead and edit my post???
> 
> Thanks....



Dont worry mate, I dont think any1 considered ur post as a warmonger since ur just expressing an alternate solution, so no need for ny1 to get angered...

I myself feel really bad when I read/hear of any security person involved losing his life or even getting injured just for the sake that a few lunatics who dont value their own lives and want to trouble others...
But the fact is, u cannot wipe them out/ fight them openly, when a large majority of our masses can be endangered even in the case of a limited war...as we arent fighting a third world country like somalia....we fighting a nuclear power with strong military and arms...
Also, as I mentioned before the war will severely hit our economy which allows us to spend so much amount of money in a race to outrun our adversary in terms of possible fighting capacity ...So instead of fighting a direct conflict we can win hands down by raising our standards so the enemy cannot even think of winning...

The cheaper alternative that they use of infiltrators is more of a stop gap arrangement ....only to irritate and keep the issue burning... 

Also, we cannot initiate even a limited scale war unless and until our lands are seized / our existence is endangered...We had a kargil only when they openly seized our land ...the spending that u mention plays an important in such situations where we won standing on the plains and hitting the mountain peaks which was considered next to impossible by the adversary...

There are certain things in the world which even the mightiest cannot change, US didnt win in vietnam, USSR in afghanistan, US now in afghanistan and iraq.....similarly, the terror infrastructure in Pakistan can only be temporarily demolished in the case of limited war but it would vanish only when the people of Pak eliminate it....

Finally, the world is like a jungle my friend, each passing day we have to come across numerous never ceasing difficulties and have to fight for our survival...cause the law of nature says, "Survival of the fittest and not strongest".

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## karan.1970

deckingraj said:


> Very valid point that you guys have made...Mind it i am not a war mongerer and i want peaceful co-existence with our neighbours.... I know when it comes to India and Pak emotions run high....Anyways lets look at other figures as well...The number of people who have died in Kashmir(civilians and Armed forces) and the kind of money we have spent in past 2 decades....Also please share with me one single reason that you guys think this will stop in next 2 decades??? Just look at the cost of raising a terrorist vs grooming an officer....
> 
> I have a very simple question...Why are we spending so much on our Armed forces if we cannot even save our men dying every now and then??? I know the solution i am proposing is insane(in fact it is not even a solution) but then is there a solution???? Is what we are doing the right step???? Imagine the king of distress the Jawan has to go while on duty and his/her family after he is killed by some fanatic eager to reach heaven...and now complement it with a fact that a meagre amount of money can raise several thousands of such pigs no matter how many you shoot down...Just yesterday our Armed forces said that terror infrastructure is still in tact....Do you see any hope in its dismantling if it hasn't happened even under such circumstances????
> 
> 
> Anyways seems like my post has angered and disappointed a few members..So let me clarify...What i said is that i would prefer a limited conflict over a proxy war any time as tragedy in one go is better than a prolonged tragedy...This way both the armies can decide who is the boss of Kashmir...It was a hypothetical wish far from reality... I hope i made myself clear...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks....



No one has been angered friend.. Each one of us feels as distressed hearing about the death of even one of our brave ones. And kicking a$$ seems to be the best option. But then what next. ? A limted war may not destroy that infrastructure as well. As a matter of fact, do you think that limited war will cause more damage to Pakistan than what their own citizens are doing. And thats the cost Pakistan is paying for raising those terrorists. Being a IT guy, I love the term: Total Cost of Ownership(TCO). Its not just the cost at which you buy the hardware but also the running cost of keeping that hardware in your data center. In case of these terrorists, Pakistan is able to raise them at a negligable cost, but the running cost of keeping them is extremely high and is so visible over last couple of years...

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## deckingraj

^^^^^^^^^^

You are right Karan, BraveHeart but this feeling of being impotent and keep watching our men die just makes you feel disgusted....

Its just we are plane lucky that 9/11 happened(i know its inhumane to be happy about such a tragedy but using just for tha sake of argument) and definition of terrorism changed....which resulted in Pak U turn on AF and there comes the problem for them which was supposed to come sooner or later...Americans paid for not reading the writing on the wall and short-term goals over long term however please tell me what we have done for us???? 

We choosed the diffcult war or Kargil and took so many casualities which we could have avoided/reduced by large number had we choose to open a new front....But "NO" we needed the international support(of being a good guy) so let the soldier die who cares fukced up attitude take better of GOI....Isn't it disgusting that bloody Pig who is the mastermind of Mumbai openly provoke people to wage a war agaisnt India that too after a massive diplomatic offensive which is claimed by GOI as the best in our history of 6 decades???

I know this is emotional outburst from my side and i am ignoring lot of sane point made by you guys but just look at this thread...How we all are enjoying the killing of those 16 pigs but how many of us actually felt bad or expressed concern about those 6 families who have been devastated due to their loss and that too for a country who don't give a damn about them???? We all know that this is going to continue....Pak will not attack us and so will we...but they will keep on sending these pigs and we keep loosing our men...Nothing is going to change(I hope and wish that I am wrong)...

People say necessity is the mother of invention but something don't make sense to me because when we have a booming economy why we still are in development phase to give our Army a(in fact many) much needed spy satellite??? why we still don't have the capability to take on pigs like Hafiz Saeed across the border without going for war(limited-full fledge)??? There are many more why...but i also know there are limited answers to them...


Let me share with you an incidence that i witnessed in US...I was waiting(having couple of drinks) for my flight in Chiacago Airport and heard lot of applause by people around...I was surprised and got curious to find out what happened...I was amazed to see that few US Soldiers were passing by(i assume coming back from Iraq front) with US flags in their hands...Each and every soul in that busy Airport was clapping for them and they were given standing ovation....Such is the regard of a soldier in here...I was amazed and equally sad when that incident reminded me of the plight that our soldiers have to go through....this is DISGUSTING....


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## Ruag

Indian Army rescues four teenagers from militants' captivity in Kashmir



> Kishtwar (Jammu-Kashmir), April 5 (ANI):
> 
> Four teenagers have been rescued by the Indian Army from the captivity of militants in the Kistwar district of Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> The boys aged between 16-20 years were rescued from militants during an operation launched in Jwalapur forest belt on March 31 after villagers filed complaints about the kidnapped teenagers.
> 
> It's like a second life for four teenagers, who were rescued by the army during a recent operation in Jammu and Kashmir's Kishtwar district.
> 
> The freed teenagers narrated how they got trapped in militants' trap.
> 
> "They tempted me with money. They said they will give me weapons but I realised that my life will be ruined if I stay here," said Hashim, one of the rescued boys, who was abducted while returning from the school, on Monday (April 5).
> 
> The incident of kidnappings has scared villagers here.
> 
> "They target teenagers, as they can mould their minds and after some time the children themselves feel reluctant to come back home," said Muhammad Yaseen, brother of a rescued boy.
> 
> The freed boys were later handed over to their families after proper verification and completion of formalities.
> 
> Thousands have lost their lives in militancy in Kashmir since 1989.
> 
> The Indian army says it has stepped up its vigil along the Line of Control to thwart infiltrations as hundreds of militants are waiting in the Pakistan occupied Kashmir to enter into India.
> 
> On Wednesday (March 31) four soldiers and four militants were illed in a gun battle in Rajouri district of the state. (ANI)



Indian Army rescues four teenagers from militants' captivity in Kashmir - Oneindia News

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Since the Indian Army has practically barricaded the entire LOC, the militants are now abducting young Kashmiri children so as to find new recruits. Children, who should be studying in schools, are now being abducted and being taught how to fire AK-47s, thanks to Kashmiri militants. And these militants are the same people who are fighting for the "cause of Kashmir"?! Is this the kind of society they want to build for Kashmir?

Anyways, congratulations fellow countrymen. Indian Army has done a splendid job rescuing these teenagers.

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## dabong1

ambidex said:


> First tell us your nationality before ranting like a head less chicken son.







ambidex said:


> Lets us do your dissection and discussion after that.



Yeah right......





ambidex said:


> Dont try to be a smart a$$ you are Chinese isnt it a champion of genocide.


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## EjazR

*@VrSoLdIeRs*

At least India holds census every 10 years in J&K, when was the last time GoP had census in the Northern Areas or the Pakistani Kashmir region? And has Pakistan tried to do the same i.e. have a UN led plebiscite in their part of Kashmir?


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## VrSoLdIeRs

EjazR said:


> *@VrSoLdIeRs*
> 
> At least India holds census every 10 years in J&K, when was the last time GoP had census in the Northern Areas or the Pakistani Kashmir region? And has Pakistan tried to do the same i.e. have a UN led plebiscite in their part of Kashmir?


counting how many 'idians' have you injected in kashmir, how does that help??

the last census was in the late 90's i think n not only AJK but it was for whole pakistan, we have been caught up in crisis since then!!!

why should pakistan hold a plebiscite and not india??? dude we need to go in this together!!!

all i ask is a very simple question why doesnt india want kashmiris to have a right of self-determination in accordance with the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council???


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## Raje amar

good work done. keep it up.


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## KS

VrSoLdIeRs said:


> all i ask is a very simple question why doesnt india want kashmiris to have a right of self-determination in accordance with the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council???





thts because we dont do any Actions that may threaten our Nations sovereignity and territorial integrity.Skewed opinions of a small group of separatists is not important is the sovereignity and territorial integrity of my country is in any way threatened by it.
Hope i made that clear


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## amoverlord

VrSoLdIeRs said:


> counting how many \'idians\' have you injected in kashmir, how does that help??
> 
> the last census was in the late 90\'s i think n not only AJK but it was for whole pakistan, we have been caught up in crisis since then!!!
> 
> why should pakistan hold a plebiscite and not india??? dude we need to go in this together!!!
> 
> all i ask is a very simple question why doesnt india want kashmiris to have a right of self-determination in accordance with the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council???




well....very gud question....answer is india doesn\'t want to free kashmir,thats it........
if u ask why then the answer is,india is a large country with multiethnic society,different languages ,cultures,more then 2 dozen of states(so we,as a country r not united by region,religion or race but by the ideology of unity in diversity).....if delhi bows to d demands of some puny terrorists in one state.... then within a month there will be same demands frm 5 others....just look at NE states n telengana issue....
so d issue of kashmir is not that simple to solve....as i see kashmir will be with india......

but then again if indo-pak relations improve(when,how...difficult to say),,then may be both d nations will take step towards peace in the valley.....


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## Justin Joseph

good work IA.

shame on terrorist for exploiting teenagers.


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## Justin Joseph

*Army comes to the rescue of mosque at LoC*

Ishfaq-ul-Hassan / DNA
Sunday, April 4, 2010 0:08 IST
Saujiyan (Line of Control): When Maulvi Sajjad Ahmad leads the prayers at Jama Masjid Gali-Maidan; he never forgets to remember the local army troopers in his prayers.

For this 30-year-old Imam, the army has proved to be the biggest facilitator of prayers by providing best of facilities to the mosque.
From furnishings to loud-speakers to generator sets to illuminating devices, the army has reinforced the facilities at the mosque, much to chagrin of those who whip-up passions against the troopers playing communal card.

*Thanks to the army, we can now say azaan so that people can come for prayers. The people in this area are very poor who lead a hand to mouth existence and cant afford other things. It is the army which never hesitates in coming to our rescue when we are in crisis, says Sajjad.*

Unlike the separatists who have been preaching against taking help for mosques from the army, the villagers here feel pride in going to the army and seeking their support for everything they need.

*Take Jama Masjid Saujiyan, the biggest mosque where 600 people can offer prayers, it is the army which has come to its rescue. This mosque was lacking all basic facilities and the people were not in a position to support it. Enter the army; now, the people are at least in a position to offer prayers.*

*We could not do ablutions in the mosque because we were facing water problems. When we brought it to the notice of the army, they immediately gave us a water storage tank. Plus, they also gave us furnishings for the mosque. The army is also providing us batteries for inverters, says Hafiz Mohammad Iqbal, Imam of Jama Masjid Saujiyan.*

With a population of 3000 people, this village is located on the foothills of the LoC at an altitude of 6400 feet. Most of the people are dependent on the agriculture with maize being the only crop being grown in this remote area.

Living in the harshest conditions, the villagers are fully dependent on the army for facilities. From being the biggest employment generator to helping in womens empowerment to building infrastructure, the army has been on the forefront in helping the people live a dignified life.

We are starting a recruitment drive from next month in Rajouri and there are many people who want to join as soldiers. Now we have started counseling them to help them pass the tests. Plus, our endeavor is to help the people in whatever way we can, said Major Ajay Pathania, second-in-command, 40 Rashtriya Riffles who is entrusted with the job of guarding the LoC and the anti-insurgency grid.

Army comes to the rescue of mosque at LoC - dnaindia.com

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## Justin Joseph

Well done Indian Army we are really proud of you.

These things makes us proud to be Indian.


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## riju78

good job. Jai hind


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## Gazzi

Yeh, Good job. The Indian soldiers can now move their rifle muzzle from his head so that he can get on with life. 

Bluddy Indian propaganda


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## Justin Joseph

Gazzi said:


> Yeh, Good job. The Indian soldiers can now move their rifle muzzle from his head so that he can get on with life.
> 
> Bluddy Indian propaganda




What's propaganda in this????

Aren't you happy to hear that Mosques are getting renovated, loudspeakers, generators and water tanks etc. are provided in Mosque.


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## fsoul

Gazzi said:


> Yeh, Good job. The Indian soldiers can now move their rifle muzzle from his head so that he can get on with life.
> 
> Bluddy Indian propaganda



If you wish to live in denial, you can be. 

Great work army, kudos.


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## amoverlord

Gazzi said:


> Yeh, Good job. The Indian soldiers can now move their rifle muzzle from his head so that he can get on with life.
> 
> Bluddy [SIZE=\"5\"]Indian propaganda[/SIZE]



yeah...yeah..its indian propaganda......
pakistan is the only pure nation,with no propaganda.....

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## Jackdaws

India's position is - all of erstwhile Kingdom of Jammu & Kashmir acceded to India, while Pakistan's is that all of J&K belongs to Pakistan because of Muslim majority. I am curious to find out - I do know that there are Buddhists and Hindus in Ladakh and Jammu - are there any in Pakistan administered Kashmir?


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## gurjot

ice_man said:


> ok where are the stone peltting people where is street protests like in indian held kashmir? why aren't the kashmiris collabrating with indians to screw pakistanis over?????
> 
> PICTURES speak a thousdand words! the international community that indians love to call "neutral" never raised any concern about azaad kashmir persecution did they? no kashmiri freedom struggle is being led in azaad kashmir is it?


stone pelting people are paid for these coz they are jobless.it's not because they love pakistan.govt is going to take steps to provide them job,so keep your self in these stones,we are going to provide them job


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## Kompromat

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## Kompromat

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## Kompromat

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## EjazR

VrSoLdIeRs said:


> counting how many 'idians' have you injected in kashmir, how does that help??
> 
> the last census was in the late 90's i think n not only AJK but it was for whole pakistan, we have been caught up in crisis since then!!!
> 
> why should pakistan hold a plebiscite and not india??? dude we need to go in this together!!!
> 
> all i ask is a very simple question why doesnt india want kashmiris to have a right of self-determination in accordance with the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council???



Well if you have been following the UNHCR and HRW reports. Its GoP that is blamed for shifting its populations into the historical J&K state and not India.

The last census was done in 1998 and that didn't include Northern Areas or Pakistani Kashmir. Here is the 1998 demographic summary.
*Population Census Organization, Government of Pakistan*

Before we can do that, we have to have zero or close to zero intimidation by militant groups based in Pakistan. GoI has time and again intimated that they are willing to talk and sort out issues with separatists. But these people are intimated by militants. Cse in point the attack on Qureshi, a recent attack on a Kashmir Congress party leader and attack by Geelani activists on Yasin Malik.


The question of "why doesn't India do a plebiscite?" applied to Pakistan as well. Even more so because the Norther Areas had no political rights until last year.


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## EjazR

*Jama&#8217;at suspends Geelani | Greater Kashmir Daily English Newspaper *

_Threatens To Expel Him, Issues Show-Cause Notice_

GK NEWS NETWORK

Srinagar, Apr 6: The Jama&#8217;at-e-Islami Jammu and Kashmir Tuesday suspended Hurriyat Conference (G) chairman, Syed Ali Geelani from the basic membership of the party.

The Jama&#8217;at also issued show cause notice to Geelani asking him to explain why he maintained silence over the allegations leveled against the party in the book &#8220;Quaid-e-Inquilab-A history, a movement&#8221; authored by Dr Shafi Shariati. &#8220;In case he (Geelani) fails to respond within 2-months he will be expelled from the basic membership of the party,&#8221; a Jama&#8217;at spokesman said in a statement here.
He said a meeting of the Maljlis-e-Shora, chaired by Ameer-e- Jama&#8217;at was held here this morning. &#8220;The meeting discussed the allegations leveled in the controversial book and took strong exception to the fingers pointed at the working of the Jama&#8217;at by the author.

The meeting also expressed concern over Geelani&#8217;s silence. After hectic deliberations of 7-hours the members unanimously decided to suspend Geelani,&#8221; the spokesman said.

He said later the organization issued a show cause notice to Geelani asking him to respond within 2-months failing which the Jama&#8217;at head has the right to decide on his expulsion from the party.
It also decided to boycott the programmes to be organized by the Hurriyat Conference (G) in future.

A local news agency KNS said the meeting alleged that the members of the Tehreek-e-Hurriyat, which is also headed by Geelani, had played a pro-active role in distributing the book.

The meeting observed that the book has not only criticized the functioning of Jama&#8217;at but also resorted to character assassination, the news agency said, adding, &#8220;The members said they have strong evidences to prove that Tehreek-e-Hurriyat activists are hell bent on maligning the image of the Jamaat-e-Islami and has unleashed a propaganda in this regard.&#8221;

--------------------

The "book" mentioned here apparently maligns the JI leadership which is currently firmly in the hands of the moderates who are against militancy and terrorism and want a negotiated settlement to the issue.

Geelani and his small faction of supporters seem to be irking everyone from Yasin Malik faction to now the JI Jammu and Kashmir cadre.

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## RAHUL INDIAN

Salute to the Army.... they are the pride of the nation....


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## Cityboy

Great. Work. .kudos army


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## Bingo!

good work as always...


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## jagjitnatt

Gazzi said:


> Yeh, Good job. The Indian soldiers can now move their rifle muzzle from his head so that he can get on with life.
> 
> Bluddy Indian propaganda



Pakistan and its denial problem. Need I say more.

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## Bingo!

good things only get noticed by a good mans eyes..

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## TaimiKhan

jagjitnatt said:


> Pakistan and its denial problem. Need I say more.



Look who is saying this.


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## jagjitnatt

TaimiKhan said:


> Look who is saying this.



Look whom I replied to.

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## Cheetah786

jagjitnatt said:


> Look whom I replied to.



You do realize its published in unknown Indian NEWS PAPER


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## mrwarrior006

*@cheetah786*


> You do realize its published in unknown Indian NEWS PAPER



^^^but its still an news isnt it


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## CONNAN

Cheetah786 said:


> You do realize its published in unknown Indian NEWS PAPER



*1) this isz not from a unkown indian news paper dude*

*source*

Army comes to the rescue of mosque at LoC - dnaindia.com

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## su-47

Basically anything we do in Kashmir is bad. Even if an Indian soldier helps an old woman cross the street, many people will find that 'propaganda'

Yes, indian army are not saints. And yes, there have bee individuals who have shamed our army by harassing, raping or killing innocent kashmiris. But that doesn't mean the indian army is a brutal force. But many adamantly refuse to see the army's positive side.

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## Gazzi

su-47 said:


> Basically anything we do in Kashmir is bad. Even if an Indian soldier helps an old woman cross the street, many people will find that 'propaganda'
> 
> Yes, indian army are not saints. And yes, there have bee individuals who have shamed our army by harassing, raping or killing innocent kashmiris. But that doesn't mean the indian army is a brutal force. But many adamantly refuse to see the army's positive side.



Oh no no no..........I mean women raped, innocent people killed......its not the Armies fault, its the Kashmirir people, its their fault...obviously, because the murderers are Indians, and Indians do no wrong........OK, you all happy now....lets move on.

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## TaimiKhan

jagjitnatt said:


> Pakistan and its denial problem. Need I say more.





jagjitnatt said:


> Look whom I replied to.



You mentioned Pakistan which means you generalized all Pakistanis, so you weren't replying to just one individual. 

So next time before you come up with above kind of ridiculous generalizing statements, do see the mirror and see the problem of denial by India and Indians.

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## Dark Angel

Cheetah786 said:


> You do realize its published in unknown Indian NEWS PAPER




In April 2008, the Indian Readership Survey (IRS) Round I determined DNA&#8217;s readership to be 676,000 ranking DNA 8th amongst the Top Ten English Dailies in India. DNA, *Mumbai is the second most read English broadsheet in the city of Mumbai*

According to the National Readership Study (NRS 2006) findings released in August 2006, DNA&#8217;s readership in Mumbai city is 5,18,000. Meanwhile, the readership figures released by NRS 2006 show DNA had the largest increase (29&#37 for any general English newspaper in Mumbai, and indicates that *DNA was by far the fastest growing newspaper in that city, giving it the second largest circulation among Mumbai newspapers.*

On February 11, 2007, DNA announced that its paid circulation has crossed 400,000 in Mumbai. It had crossed 300,000 in October 2006. In May 2006, DNA authorized Ernst & Young to certify its circulation figures.[6] E & Y submitted its report in July, putting its paid circulation at 270,000.



*before saying something stupid think twice* 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_(newspaper)

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## Cheetah786

Dark Angel said:


> In April 2008, the Indian Readership Survey (IRS) Round I determined DNAs readership to be 676,000 ranking DNA 8th amongst the Top Ten English Dailies in India. DNA, *Mumbai is the second most read English broadsheet in the city of Mumbai*
> 
> According to the National Readership Study (NRS 2006) findings released in August 2006, DNAs readership in Mumbai city is 5,18,000. Meanwhile, the readership figures released by NRS 2006 show DNA had the largest increase (29%) for any general English newspaper in Mumbai, and indicates that *DNA was by far the fastest growing newspaper in that city, giving it the second largest circulation among Mumbai newspapers.*
> 
> On February 11, 2007, DNA announced that its paid circulation has crossed 400,000 in Mumbai. It had crossed 300,000 in October 2006. In May 2006, DNA authorized Ernst & Young to certify its circulation figures.[6] E & Y submitted its report in July, putting its paid circulation at 270,000.
> 
> 
> 
> *before saying something stupid think twice*
> 
> DNA (newspaper) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



same web site this is what it says about the newspaper.

Present Editions
DNA is currently published from Mumbai, Bengaluru, Pune, Ahmedabad, and Jaipur. DNA has stopped publishing from Surat.



> [edit] Future Editions
> The Major Metro Cities of India such as New Delhi, Hyderabad, Indore, Lucknow and Bhopal are also targeted for the futured edition of DNA News Paper.



so its not even a national paper




> DNA provides a supplement called "YA!young adults" in Bombay and parts of Pune. It is mainly targeted towards kids from as young as 4 years to 18, but it is also read by many parents and people who are almost 50 years old. It is published by editor Anuradha Sengupta and publishes on every Sunday.
> 
> It gives lots of information about happenings around Bombay, camps, bookshops, international worries such as global warming,contests, games and puzzles, comics, jokes, recipes, children's worries like bullying and heavy homework etc,did-you-knows, and children's contributions such as poems,essays,articles on their life, letters to the editor, drawings etc. The editor also publishes a letter of her own thoughts towards the children who have written to her.



YOU no you are right this sounds like a International level NEWSPAPER i should think twice about this you got me dude i am just speech less.

did you read about the part where it says even children can contribute to the paper i guess that explains the fantcy news posted as a Topic.

Essel Group is a group of companies headed by Subhash Chandra based in Mumbai, Maharashtra [1]. The companies under the group are:



> Media
> Zee Entertainment Enterprises
> Zee News
> DNA (newspaper)



Yeah i see it even becomes more crdible now that zee news name is attached to it.


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## durgs360




----------



## Pride

Cheetah786 said:


> You do realize its published in unknown Indian NEWS PAPER



Okay Sir.. you dont have trust.. Next time your freedom fighter .."IF" ( big IF) returns from valley 'Alive'.. Please ask them to confirm the same.. Problem solved

And Sir you are not sure for this newspaper's credibility.. then let me tell you this is JV of Dainik Bhaskar Group (Covering 9 states) and Essel group ( same group owns Zee channels, essel world and Indian Cricket League)...


----------



## VrSoLdIeRs

amoverlord said:


> well....very gud question....answer is india doesn\'t want to free kashmir,thats it........
> if u ask why then the answer is,india is a large country with multiethnic society,different languages ,cultures,more then 2 dozen of states(so we,as a country r not united by region,religion or race but by the ideology of unity in diversity).....if delhi bows to d demands of some puny terrorists in one state.... then within a month there will be same demands frm 5 others....just look at NE states n telengana issue....
> so d issue of kashmir is not that simple to solve....as i see kashmir will be with india......
> 
> but then again if indo-pak relations improve(when,how...difficult to say),,then may be both d nations will take step towards peace in the valley.....


dude see you got something like 700000 troops there, thats even bigger then the size of pakistan army... 

you say apart from just a few 'people' majority wants to be with india.... plus i doubt india has such a major problem in any of its other states... plus you guys have already agreed that you will let the kashmiris decide... and according to your statistics india will be favorite by a large margin... atleast that will stop the 'insurgency' and shut pakistan up once and for all!!!


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## ice_man

please tell me is this "FREE" & "SECULAR" thing noticed in places like gujrat? can an azaan be said in gujrat can the QURBANI be done on the streets of gujrat? 

is LoC the only place in india where the army believes in secularism?????

are the orissa christans free to practise their faith?


----------



## VrSoLdIeRs

EjazR said:


> Well if you have been following the UNHCR and HRW reports. Its GoP that is blamed for shifting its populations into the historical J&K state and not India.
> 
> The last census was done in 1998 and that didn't include Northern Areas or Pakistani Kashmir. Here is the 1998 demographic summary.
> *Population Census Organization, Government of Pakistan*
> 
> Before we can do that, we have to have zero or close to zero intimidation by militant groups based in Pakistan. GoI has time and again intimated that they are willing to talk and sort out issues with separatists. But these people are intimated by militants. Cse in point the attack on Qureshi, a recent attack on a Kashmir Congress party leader and attack by Geelani activists on Yasin Malik.
> 
> 
> The question of "why doesn't India do a plebiscite?" applied to Pakistan as well. Even more so because the Norther Areas had no political rights until last year.


i am sorry havent been following the UNHCR and HRW reports, can you be kind enough to give me a reference?

dude the 'nothern areas' you talk about were a part of NWFP... seriously man, you guys do a lot of research but still miss basic googling... here is the link for 1998 census

The total population of 2.973 million according to the Population Census of 1998 is estimated to be 3.271 million in 2002. Almost 100&#37; population is Muslim. Out of the total population, 87.5% are living in rural areas while 12.5% are urban residents. 

About Kashmir

buddy!!!! GoI will always keep on saying that insurgency is there, if india was ever serious in solving this issue it wasnt that hard. The conflicts were going on when Un was trying ot hold a referendum in east timor. these conflicts will go on, its time india should stop being a cry baby n take up some responsibility!!!

both countries will go into this plebiscite together, pakistan has always been willing, its india who needs to show interest. and as for northern areas you dont have to worry about them buddy... there is no separatist movement or fights going on!!!! lets focus on the main topic!!


----------



## freak

dabong1 said:


> At least the pakistani public-politicians-army can see that you will not move an inch on kashmir as long there is a sword not hanging over your head......you going have to bleed to stay in kashmir and where going to make you bleed.



They are bombs going of in Pakistan almost everyday. Why dont you first put a bandage on your own wounds and then talk about bleeding others. 

Blowing up of infrastructure in Kashmir is hurting the daily life of Kashmiris.....Is that the aim???


----------



## Pride

ice_man said:


> please tell me is this "FREE" & "SECULAR" thing noticed in places like gujrat? can an azaan be said in gujrat can the QURBANI be done on the streets of gujrat?
> 
> is LoC the only place in india where the army believes in secularism?????
> 
> are the orissa christans free to practise their faith?



Sir.. Done with enough rants against Indian Secularism.. you did too much and came with 2 instances... Yes sir Muslims in Gujrat are safe to do what they want.. If you have any problem please confirm with Pathan brothers.. and Christians in Orissa are also safe to do what they want... 
If you want to state few cases and want to blame whole Indian secularism then why you get angered when Terrorism is added to particular religion because of so many cases.. Well I dont believe that.. do you believe the same?


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## Mallu

ice_man said:


> please tell me is this "FREE" & "SECULAR" thing noticed in places like gujrat? can an azaan be said in gujrat can the QURBANI be done on the streets of gujrat?
> 
> is LoC the only place in india where the army believes in secularism?????
> 
> are the orissa christans free to practise their faith?



We had some dark patches
but that doesnt mean Indian Army or India is not Secular.

Take my Example.
I am from Kerala, A christian
My Father worked with IAF
I have worked all over India,now in Jammu and Kashmir

From our Experience Indian Forces are secular and so in Indian Society

Ps: Please peep in your house

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## ice_man

@PRIDE

sure! if you want to bury your head in the sand and tell me everything is ok then i can't do anything!

@MALLU

we are talking about secular india here like most indians love to rant "don't bring india into everything" i say don't bring pakistan into everything! 

besides as for pakistan our minoirty rights are way more than in india!


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## Areesh

What type of ridiculous thread is this one. What a important news we are witnessing in this thread. Well if Indian army has does something better unlike there past why is there so much fuss about. It can be described in this equation.

Indian army in Kashmir= Numerous mosques destroyed in Kashmir-A single mosque save.

Great indian army you could do something good. Keep it up.


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## Areesh

To the 6 martyrs may they rest in peace.

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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> To the 6 martyrs may they rest in peace.



The number is 18 now...


----------



## Bombay

Areesh said:


> To the 6 martyrs may they rest in peace.



To the 6 terrorists may they rot in hell.

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## Peshwa

TaimiKhan said:


> You mentioned Pakistan which means you generalized all Pakistanis, so you weren't replying to just one individual.
> 
> So next time before you come up with above kind of ridiculous generalizing statements, do see the mirror and see the problem of denial by India and Indians.



And your peeps claiming all positive news coming out of Indian newspapers as propoganda is not generalization right?

Please pass the dictionary that you guys are using on your side of the border so we can familiarize ourselves with the self serving definitions being floated here.....

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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> The number is 18 now...



Saltue to the 18 freedom fighters who are fighting against the tyranny cruelty.

may they rest in peace.

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## Mirza Jatt

karan.1970 said:


> The number is 18 now...



great work...terrorists shot in the head....let the world be free of these creatures.

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## Philosopher1

slowly but steadily the valley will be cleansed of these unwanted elements and will be paradise once again.


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## IBRIS

These 6 bastards will surely go straight to hell.

*Kudos to Indian Forces*







*See the joy of relief on the faces of kashmiri people after the operation ended.*






*If you are a militant and want to see your angels ASAP...see me in Rajouri you damned terrorist. *


----------



## Areesh

Its good to see that these guys have covered there faces. Looks like they are also ashamed of the fact that they are a tool to defend the indian tyranny. If they had a better job they would surely never join Indian security forces. Poor souls.

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## Philosopher1

Areesh said:


> Its good to see that these guys have covered there faces. Looks like they are also ashamed of the fact that they are a tool to defend the indian tyranny. If they had a better job they would surely never join Indian security forces. Poor souls.



They are covering their face so that the people they protect doesn't need to cover their face. 

Kashmir will always be with India. 

Dream no small dreams for they have no power to move the hearts of men.


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## Spring Onion

hmmmmmm 

1. Thank You DNA atleast one Indian tabloid accept it as LoC 

2. the written item while quoting the imam of the mosque said "Thanks to army we can now give azan" hmmmmmmmmm I wonder whats there to wait for army for giving azan because as far as we know for azan almost all mosques use a small loudspeaker which costs no more than 3 or 4 hundred rupees.

3. Above all and the most important thing is that we Muslims in Pakistan, Kashmir and many other Muslim countries, we willingly and peronally contribute for construction and facilitating the mosques from our own pockets mostly no matter how poor we are.

So the bottom line is this is pure Indian BS to gain sympathy.

Another thing is most of schools are occupied by Indian army in IHK as well as Mosques are disrespected by Indian occupied army so lets have a reality check how much Indian army in Occupied Kashmir facilitate the mosques.

One more thing the headline of this story item is altogather misleading.

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## IBRIS

Areesh said:


> Its good to see that these guys have covered there faces. Looks like they are also ashamed of the fact that they are a tool to defend the indian tyranny. If they had a better job they would surely never join Indian security forces. Poor souls.




Way to go smarta$$. So, by your pathetic logic all the forces of the rest of world's hotspots cover there faces to avoid being humiliated. Special operations are conducted by special men. You saw there faces in pictures i uploaded together and you still manage to spew a stupit reamarks. BRAVO 

here is another pic from same operation just in case you forgot to think before saying some dumb &#!t.


----------



## Justin Joseph

ice_man said:


> please tell me is this "FREE" & "SECULAR" thing noticed in places like gujrat? can an azaan be said in gujrat can the QURBANI be done on the streets of gujrat?
> 
> is LoC the only place in india where the army believes in secularism?????
> 
> are the orissa christans free to practise their faith?




sir,

Not only Gujarat at all over India each and every Muslim is free to practice his religion as he/she likes.

1. Since, you have asked about Gujarat, Here is a photo where thousands of Muslims offering Namaz in Ahamadabad, Gujarat.

*The Photo is from a leading British Newspaper so you can't rant about the authenticity.*






Muslims around the world prepare for Eid al-Fitr | World news | guardian.co.uk 

Second and Third photo are also of Gujarat where Muslims are protesting against Pakistan












2. *As for the Christians i'm a christian myself but you will say i'm a individual or a Hindu Zionist hiding behind a christian ID, so here is link from a Internationally reputed Christian Newspaper.*

*Indian Christians Reject USCIRF Report; Defends 'Secular' India
*

*Stating that India is truly secular in letter and spirit, Archbishop Raphael Cheenath of Cuttack-Bhubaneshwar rejected USCIRF's report and said there should be "no doubt over the secular credentials of India."*


Full report @ following link:

http://www.christianpost.com/articl...scirf-report-defends-secular-india/index.html

I know, i know as both the propagandas have busted with credible and neutral links you must be feeling frustated but what can i say.

I have to tell the truth. 

thanks


----------



## IBRIS

*@ Areesh*

Here are more covered faces for you Mr: The Truth is Out There... but I lost the URL.


----------



## Peshwa

Jana said:


> hmmmmmm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Thank You DNA atleast one Indian tabloid accept it as LoC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. the written item while quoting the imam of the mosque said "Thanks to army we can now give azan" hmmmmmmmmm I wonder whats there to wait for army for giving azan because as far as we know for azan almost all mosques use a small loudspeaker which costs no more than 3 or 4 hundred rupees.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you managing the financing and resources of the Mosque?
> On what basis are you claiming that the Army did not provide the mosque with some necessary equipment to conduct their operations?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3. Above all and the most important thing is that we Muslims in Pakistan, Kashmir and many other Muslim countries, we willingly and peronally contribute for construction and facilitating the mosques from our own pockets mostly no matter how poor we are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Uhhh.....how about, the army men helping could have been Muslim?
> Or the fact that soldiers in the Indian army actually have a heart?
> Why dont you go ask Mr.MuradK about the Gentlemen from the Indian armed forces that he calls friends that you and others of your kind portray as monsters.....
> 
> No one can stop you from imagining things and coming up with vague theories.....all we ask is to flaunt them when related to Pakistan....NOT Indian affairs...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So the bottom line is this is pure Indian BS to gain sympathy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gain who's sympathy?
> 
> 
> 
> Another thing is most of schools are occupied by Indian army in IHK as well as Mosques are disrespected by Indian occupied army so lets have a reality check how much Indian army in Occupied Kashmir facilitate the mosques.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How exactly are they disrespected?.....Can you provide some instances?.....
> Or are you referring to the screening that has to be done at Mosques to prevent Pakistani terrorists from hiding in them or taking civilians hostage?......
Click to expand...

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## Areesh

IBRIS said:


> *@ Areesh*
> 
> Here are more covered faces for you Mr: The Truth is Out There... but I lost the URL.



Looks like they are covering there faces because they don't want the people of IOK to see them. They don't to get killed by them.


Anyways congrats to you for killing 18 "terrorists". How many left now. 1 or 10 or 100. Or you will wipe the whole population of the valley.


----------



## Areesh

Justin Joseph said:


> sir,
> 
> Not only Gujarat at all over India each and every Muslim is free to practice his religion as he/she likes.
> 
> 1. Since, you have asked about Gujarat, Here is a photo where thousands of Muslims offering Namaz in Ahamadabad, Gujarat.
> 
> *The Photo is from a leading British Newspaper so you can't rant about the authenticity.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims around the world prepare for Eid al-Fitr | World news | guardian.co.uk
> 
> Second and Third photo are also of Gujarat where Muslims are protesting against Pakistan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. *As for the Christians i'm a christian myself but you will say i'm a individual or a Hindu Zionist hiding behind a christian ID, so here is link from a Internationally reputed Christian Newspaper.*
> 
> *Indian Christians Reject USCIRF Report; Defends 'Secular' India
> *
> 
> *Stating that India is truly secular in letter and spirit, Archbishop Raphael Cheenath of Cuttack-Bhubaneshwar rejected USCIRF's report and said there should be "no doubt over the secular credentials of India."*
> 
> 
> Full report @ following link:
> 
> Indian Christians Reject USCIRF Report; Defends 'Secular' India | Christianpost.com
> 
> I know, i know as both the propagandas have busted with credible and neutral links you must be feeling frustated but what can i say.
> 
> I have to tell the truth.
> 
> thanks



Seriously your post is as pathetic as thread. One or two pics or links doesn't change the fact that *muslims were slaughtered in gujrat and chrsistians were butchered in orissa.*.

Insane patriotism can't change facts. Yeah it can increase your posts.


----------



## Philosopher1

Areesh said:


> Looks like they are covering there faces because they don't want the people of IOK to see them. They don't to get killed by them.
> 
> 
> Anyways congrats to you for killing 18 "terrorists". How many left now. 1 or 10 or 100. Or you will wipe the whole population of the valley.



More to go.. just the terrorists are on army's list
But the population of kashmiris are growing.The population of the state, according to the 1981 census was 5,987,389 (3,164,660 males and 2,822,729 females).October 1989, the population of the state was 7,718,700.

I promise i will give the newest population figures to you once the ongoing census is over..

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## Areesh

Justin Joseph said:


> Second and Third photo are also of Gujarat where Muslims are protesting against Pakistan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanks



I think they are doing anti Pakistan protests because they think in this way they can save themselves from Hindutiva terrorists. Nice strategy indeed.


Anyways.

Pakistani flag hoistedIn the Gujarat.....


----------



## Areesh

Philosopher said:


> More to go.. just the terrorists are on army's list
> But the population of kashmiris are growing.The population of the state, according to the 1981 census was 5,987,389 (3,164,660 males and 2,822,729 females).October 1989, the population of the state was 7,718,700.
> 
> I promise i will give the newest population figures to you once the ongoing census is over..



The Indian army has been killing "Terrorists" in the IOK. Let's see how many it will kill.


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## karan.1970

As long as we are showing soldiers with covered faces..


----------



## IBRIS

Areesh said:


> Looks like they are covering there faces because they don't want the people of IOK to see them. They don't to get killed by them.


Out of 16 personnel only 1 is masked. Rest want the kashmiri's to see them as they pass near by, so they know who saved them from getting shot by heartless oppertunist terrorists.

You are doing a really good job proving yourself to be a bright new poster on PDF. Amreesh i think we are going to get along really well. looking forward seeing more of your


----------



## Philosopher1

Areesh said:


> The Indian army has been killing "Terrorists" in the IOK. Let's see how many it will kill.



Yup. Just keep this thread alive so that "we" can have a track of it. Cheers.


----------



## TaimiKhan

Peshwa said:


> And your peeps claiming all positive news coming out of Indian newspapers as propoganda is not generalization right?
> 
> Please pass the dictionary that you guys are using on your side of the border so we can familiarize ourselves with the self serving definitions being floated here.....



Don't try to be over smart and show your sarcasm here. 

See to whom I replied and the relevant sequence of the discussion. I did not replied on the news item posted, as i don't have to, we need no propaganda news from your side or from our side, we have 3rd party credible sources to show us the real picture of what goes on where and when. 

And as for your advice, first pass it on to your own and then advice us. But it seems its impossible, as it becomes impossible for the types like yours and others like you to come up to reality and see the faults in your own, as pointing fingers is easy compared to the self assessment.


----------



## prithwidw

/\/\/\ Hey Mod, it's enough.

Shall we come back to the topic , please.


----------



## Aslan

prithwidw said:


> /\/\/\ Hey Mod, it's enough.
> 
> Shall we come back to the topic , please.



Dude whats with you and advises, and that also in the most disrespectful way. Yes you can get back to the discussion on hand after rendering the same advise to your brethren. The coin always have 2 sides stop looking at one end of it only.

P.S. Its not your gali mohala where you can use that tone in your conversation. Respect others to get some.


----------



## Aslan

Justin Joseph said:


>



A bunch of Dollar molvis with a pandit doing the right thing, they very well represent the same thing that our Halwa brigade in Pakistan does, hypocrisy.


----------



## Arik

Areesh said:


> Seriously your post is as pathetic as thread. One or two pics or links doesn't change the fact that *muslims were slaughtered in gujrat and chrsistians were butchered in orissa.*.
> 
> Insane patriotism can't change facts. Yeah it can increase your posts.



I think u forgot abt the 1971 massacre where the pakistani military along with its paramilitary brigades(AL shams ,Al badr) killed both bangladeshi muslims and hindus.
Some analysts say that 3 million people were killed while some say 200,000 were killed.


----------



## TaimiKhan

Arik said:


> I think u forgot abt the 1971 massacre where the pakistani military along with its paramilitary brigades(AL shams ,Al badr) killed both bangladeshi muslims and hindus.
> Some analysts say that 3 million people were killed while some say 200,000 were killed.



Do some more research about the real numbers, try to find how many people registered themselves for monetary claims when the Bangladesh govt asked people to come up and tell about their loved ones killed so that monetary compensation is paid to them, due to the low number of registrations which were in just few thousands which even had the people registered who were killed by pro-Bangladeshi groups, due to the low figure count, the Bangladesh govt closed to program to save their faces before it gets humiliated with their claim of 3 Million. 

And this is not being said by Pakistanis, rather go and ask some of the Bangladeshi members on this forum who were the ones who brought this fact to light. And there are many studies which refute the 3M figure. 

The real figure is even much less compared to the Indian Army score in the Indian Occupied Kashmir.

And yeah, we haven't forgotten about our past nor can we, it was a mistake and a blunder on our part and we are sorry for it.


----------



## Arik

TaimiKhan said:


> Do some more research about the real numbers, try to find how many people registered themselves for monetary claims when the Bangladesh govt asked people to come up and tell about their loved ones killed so that monetary compensation is paid to them, due to the low number of registrations which were in just few thousands which even had the people registered who were killed by pro-Bangladeshi groups, due to the low figure count, the Bangladesh govt closed to program to save their faces before it gets humiliated with their claim of 3 Million.
> 
> And this is not being said by Pakistanis, rather go and ask some of the Bangladeshi members on this forum who were the ones who brought this fact to light. And there are many studies which refute the 3M figure.
> 
> The real figure is even much less compared to the Indian Army score in the Indian Occupied Kashmir.
> 
> And yeah, we haven't forgotten about our past nor can we, it was a mistake and a blunder on our part and we are sorry for it.



Professor RJ Rummel an eminent professer who had spent a lot of time collecting data termed the massacre an "outright genocide".
The giuness book of world records termed the bangla massacre as one ofthe top 5 genocides of the 20th century.
Some 7000 people were reportedly killed on the first day of operation searchlight.

Real figure much less compared to Kashmir is one of the biggest jokes i have heard.The bangladsh massacre is said to be worse than the rawanda genocide where 800,000 people were killed.


----------



## ramu

Gazzi said:


> Yeh, Good job. The Indian soldiers can now move their rifle muzzle from his head so that he can get on with life.
> 
> Bluddy Indian propaganda



Cant expect Indian Army to do any good ? Its all propaganda. You are the only truth around here .


----------



## ramu

Cheetah786 said:


> You do realize its published in unknown Indian NEWS PAPER



Shows the boundaries of your thinking space. DNA India is a well recognised media house.


----------



## ramu

Gazzi said:


> Oh no no no..........I mean women raped, innocent people killed......its not the Armies fault, its the Kashmirir people, its their fault...obviously, because the murderers are Indians, and Indians do no wrong........OK, you all happy now....lets move on.



Do you want me to give an account of brutality of Pakistan in Kashmir as early as 1947 ? Two wrongs don't make it right but your narrow perspective is clear from your posts.


----------



## ramu

Cheetah786 said:


> same web site this is what it says about the newspaper.
> 
> Present Editions
> DNA is currently published from Mumbai, Bengaluru, Pune, Ahmedabad, and Jaipur. DNA has stopped publishing from Surat.
> 
> so its not even a national paper
> 
> YOU no you are right this sounds like a International level NEWSPAPER i should think twice about this you got me dude i am just speech less.
> 
> did you read about the part where it says even children can contribute to the paper i guess that explains the fantcy news posted as a Topic.
> 
> Essel Group is a group of companies headed by Subhash Chandra based in Mumbai, Maharashtra [1]. The companies under the group are:
> 
> Yeah i see it even becomes more crdible now that zee news name is attached to it.






DNA readership is well known. Majority of its readership is the online community just like several other credible websites.

About your ridiculous post learn to read English first. the target audience are kids for the * Supplement* called "YA! young adults". So don't pick something off context and cook up tales.


----------



## Ingis

Wow... the militants need to ashamed of themselves for trying to forcefully enlist child soldiers.

One can clearly draw parallels between the Kashmiri militants and the LTTE.


----------



## Areesh

Arik said:


> I think u forgot abt the 1971 massacre where the pakistani military along with its paramilitary brigades(AL shams ,Al badr) killed both bangladeshi muslims and hindus.
> Some analysts say that 3 million people were killed while some say 200,000 were killed.



Topic again derailed now we are on 1971. I wonder if this thread continues we would also talked about Mughal empire.


----------



## Pride

ice_man said:


> @PRIDE
> 
> sure! if you want to bury your head in the sand and tell me everything is ok then i can't do anything!




No Sir, You have full right to live in fantasy land.. And yes you are right about minorities in Pakistan... last month's sikh beheading is one example. Please go and compare increase/ decrease of minorities in both the countries and you will have answer yourself...


----------



## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> As long as we are showing soldiers with covered faces..



Sweet looks like these guys are anti terrorist unlike the poor souls shown above by our indian brothers who are *anti anti terrorist*.


----------



## Kashmiri Nationalist

Indian Jatt said:


> Buddy there are thousand of therads and endless discussion on this..still let me try once more -
> (1)you saying India has occupied Kashmir? Indians know that Pakistan has occupied Kashmir.
> (2)you say endessly killed innocents?? Indians know they have killed terrorists trying to infiltrate into our land with unscrupulous intentions and will keep killing in future..thats called *Duty*.
> 
> 
> 
> hhmm...I don't know about that figure in total but they just killed 6 more of these.



As a Kashmiri, please let me make this clear;Pakistan is NOT occupying Kashmir. I have never seen any oppression nor heard of any in Kashmir conducted by the Pakistani Army or Police. We regard oursleves as Pakistani, and the Pakistani Army as heroes. I myself have Kashmiri relatives in the army, and have relatives that have died in service to our nation. The only time we see such "Pakistan Occupied Kashmir" is in your green journalistic newspapers, no International Newspaper (and there are many established ones) have ever suggested the same.
Jammu is occupied, massacres and an oppression is clearly happening. Prove to it isn't and I'll show you a leprechaun. 
Please stop posting such lies, or next time a mod will have to delete my post. Seriously, I'm not having any of this bull****. 

Long Live The Resistance
Long Live Pakistan

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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Sweet looks like these guys are anti terrorist unlike the poor souls shown above by our indian brothers who are *anti anti terrorist*.


they also have their faces covered... isnt it??

yeh to wahi baat ho gayi

tumhara pyar, pyar
hamara pyar, ###


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> they also have their faces covered... isnt it??
> 
> yeh to wahi baat ho gayi
> 
> tumhara pyar, pyar
> hamara pyar, ###



Actually there is a slight difference in covering faces. 1 When you are really fighting terrorists and 2 when you are illegitimately occupying someone's land.


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Actually there is a slight difference in covering faces. 1 When you are really fighting terrorists and 2 when you are illegitimately occupying someone's land.

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## Jade

Azad Kashmir said:


> As a Kashmiri, please let me make this clear;Pakistan is NOT occupying Kashmir. I have never seen any oppression nor heard of any in Kashmir conducted by the Pakistani Army or Police. We regard oursleves as Pakistani, and the Pakistani Army as heroes. I myself have Kashmiri relatives in the army, and have relatives that have died in service to our nation. The only time we see such "Pakistan Occupied Kashmir" is in your green journalistic newspapers, no International Newspaper (and there are many established ones) have ever suggested the same.
> Jammu is occupied, massacres and an oppression is clearly happening. Prove to it isn't and I'll show you a leprechaun.
> Please stop posting such lies, or next time a mod will have to delete my post. Seriously, I'm not having any of this bull****.
> 
> Long Live The Resistance
> Long Live Pakistan



To which part of Kashmir do you belong? And, yes, there is a part of Kashmir that is occupied by Pakistan.

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## IBRIS

Areesh said:


> Actually there is a slight difference in covering faces. 1 When you are really fighting terrorists and 2 when you are illegitimately occupying someone's land.




You are wasting your time with your angelical bullshit. Me, we, Me, we Me, we, is all i can read in your 2 liner text of bullshit.


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## Mirza Jatt

Azad Kashmir said:


> As a Kashmiri, please let me make this clear;Pakistan is NOT occupying Kashmir. I have never seen any oppression nor heard of any in Kashmir conducted by the Pakistani Army or Police. We regard oursleves as Pakistani, and the Pakistani Army as heroes. I myself have Kashmiri relatives in the army, and have relatives that have died in service to our nation. The only time we see such "Pakistan Occupied Kashmir" is in your green journalistic newspapers, no International Newspaper (and there are many established ones) have ever suggested the same.
> Jammu is occupied, massacres and an oppression is clearly happening. Prove to it isn't and I'll show you a leprechaun.
> 
> 
> Long Live The Resistance
> Long Live Pakistan



1.You call yourself a Kashmiri...well,i doubt but i have no chice but I have to accept.
2.I thought Kashmiris want themselves to be liberated?why Pakistani flag brother?
3.your Pakistani views mean you from P0k..I am not surprised why you talk like that..



> Please stop posting such lies, or next time a mod will have to delete my post. Seriously, I'm not having any of this bull****



Lies ???? If I remember then I said 6 terrorists killed and that is sooooooo pleasing to hear.... believe that makes me so happy to hear these terrorists being killed while trying to infiltrate.....now tak it as a BS or whatever...for me its a news that makes me happy....


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## herakles

Srinagar: Foreigners will be allowed to climb nearly 100 high-altitude Himalayan peaks for the first time in Kashmir, an official said Friday. 

*The move by the government to allow foreign climbers follows a significant decline in violence by insurgent groups in the region since India and Pakistan started a peace process in 2004, said Farooq Ahmed Shah, a state tourism official.* 

The move is aimed at helping to boost tourism, an important source of income for Kashmiris and their saucer-shaped valley of fruit orchards, lakes and wildflowers. 

Before the start of the insurgency by separatists in 1989, hundreds of thousands of tourists flocked to the region  known as the Switzerland of the east  to enjoy the glacier-fed streams flowing through the forests and grasslands or lounge on houseboats floating on Srinagar's Dal Lake. 

''We are optimistic that the decision will give a big boost to tourism and attract more and more foreign tourists,'' Shah said. 

Separatist violence caused the number of tourists to drop to a few thousand every year, deterred by travel warnings from Western governments and extensive media coverage of fighting between government forces and insurgents. 

The government in the Indian state of Jammu-Kashmir declared 2010 a ''visit Kashmir year'' following an improvement in the security situation, Shah said. 

''The decision has been taken at the highest level and nearly 100 peaks in Ladakh region are open for trekking and mountaineering,'' he said. 

These peaks are situated at an altitude ranging from 9,840 feet (3,000 metres) to nearly 26,246 feet (8,000 metres). 

The Indian climbers have been scaling those peaks for decades. Aijaz Ahmed, a travel operator, said the opening of the peaks to foreign tourists would help promote Kashmir. 

''The tourism sector has suffered a lot during the last two decades. We're hopeful the decision will attract foreign tourists to the region,'' he said.

Peaks in Kashmir opened to foreigners for the first time

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## herakles

planning to visit Leh-ladakh this summer ..............heard from friends thats a great place


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## Hammy007

why dont, do they have another option escaping their death???


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## Zebronic

Hammy007 said:


> why dont, do they another option escaping their death???



We are talking about Kashmir under Indian governance,not about Kashmir under pakistan occupation.


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## Mallu

herakles said:


> planning to visit Leh-ladakh this summer ..............heard from friends thats a great place



Really Beautiful place on earth.
Little breathing problem due to high altitude

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## Mallu

Hammy007 said:


> why dont, do they have another option escaping their death???



You people wished the situation to be like this.............
But due to GODs grace and Kashmiri peoples will the situation are normal


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## freakish

I was in Leh-Ladakh last year.....awesome place....too good to be true.
Make a point to pass through Kashmir.....its a heaven on earth....

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## herakles

Mallu said:


> Really Beautiful place on earth.
> Little breathing problem due to high altitude



ya ...it will take 2-3 days to get used to altiitude.


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## secularguy

freakish said:


> I was in Leh-Ladakh last year.....awesome place....too good to be true.
> Make a point to pass through Kashmir.....its a heaven on earth....



No Wonder...We have Foreigners as Well as Our People from even Kerela do Trips to Leh-Ladakh on Royal Enfield Bullets...


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## PakiPashtun

^nice post.


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## Hammy007

Zebronic said:


> We are talking about Kashmir under Indian governance,not about Kashmir under pakistan occupation.



your post is idiotic, get mental checkup, the kashmir is not in pakistan's occupation pakistan wished to give them self determinance, in accross the border, fake elections are staged and people are not free to determine their fate, see which area is under governance and which is under nazi occupation.

kashmiris from the day one rebelled indians and have not accepted mahrajahs decision which he gave by accepting indian bribe and being hindu.



Mallu said:


> You people wished the situation to be like this.............
> But due to GODs grace and Kashmiri peoples will the situation are normal



we wish kashmiris to be free, kashmiris have chosen for a peaceful freedom movement, you dont ralize the lava which is going to errupt.

btw just few days bach indian railway track was destroyed by kashmiris


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## karan.1970

Hammy007 said:


> your post is idiotic, get mental checkup, the kashmir is not in pakistan's occupation pakistan wished to give them self determinance, in accross the border, fake elections are staged and people are not free to determine their fate, see which area is under governance and which is under nazi occupation.
> 
> kashmiris from the day one rebelled indians and have not accepted mahrajahs decision which he gave by accepting indian bribe and being hindu.
> 
> 
> 
> we wish kashmiris to be free, kashmiris have chosen for a peaceful freedom movement, you dont ralize the lava which is going to errupt.
> 
> *btw just few days bach indian railway track was destroyed by kashmiris*



A few foot long track was destroyed and was fixed in a few hours.

and that happened after 18 of those terrorists were despatched to hell in 3 days before that as a part of Operation Khoj..


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## Zebronic

Hammy007 said:


> your post is idiotic, *get mental checkup*, the kashmir is not in pakistan's occupation pakistan wished to give them self determinance, in accross the border, fake elections are staged and people are not free to determine their fate, see which area is under governance and which is under nazi occupation.


 
Kashmir is not part pakistan and it will never be...and when you give self determinance to Kashmir which is under pakistan occupation do not forget giving the same to Gilgit and Baltistan...
with your so called azad kashmir, Gilgit and Baltistan too is part of kashmir not part pakistan which your country has engulfed and has given lolly pop(azad Kashmir ) to illiterate Kashmiri.. 

*and about election 70&#37; is the turnout.*. 




Hammy007 said:


> from the day one rebelled indians and have not accepted mahrajahs decision which he gave by accepting indian bribe and being hindu.







Hammy007 said:


> B]we wish kashmiris to be free, kashmiris have chosen for a peaceful freedom movement, you dont ralize the lava which is going to errupt.
> [/B]


terrorist send by your country in the name of jihadi in kashmir killed so many kashmiri and you called it peaceful. bu*lsh*t..
btw just few days bach indian railway track was destroyed by kashmiris[/quote]

they are not locals they are paid separatist....


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## herakles

Hammy007 said:


> your post is idiotic, get mental checkup, the kashmir is not in pakistan's occupation pakistan wished to give them self determinance, in accross the border, fake elections are staged and people are not free to determine their fate, see which area is under governance and which is under nazi occupation.
> 
> kashmiris from the day one rebelled indians and have not accepted mahrajahs decision which he gave by accepting indian bribe and being hindu.
> 
> 
> 
> we wish kashmiris to be free, kashmiris have chosen for a peaceful freedom movement, you dont ralize the lava which is going to errupt.
> 
> btw just few days bach indian railway track was destroyed by kashmiris




peaceful freedom movement????????
sorry sir ,I highly dout it


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## karan.1970

*Bickering aside..Some more good news... This time 4 terrorists nabbed alive..Must be getting a damaad treatment by the army by now*..



http://news.webindia123.com/news/Articles/India/20100410/1482157.html

Hideout busted, 4 HM and Lashker militants arrested in Kashmir
Srinagar | Saturday, Apr 10 2010 IST




Security forces busted a hideout and also arrested a Lashkher-e-Taiba (LeT) and three Hizbul Mujahideen (HM) militants in the Kashmir valley overnight, official sources said here today.

A hand grenade was also recovered from a shop at Sopore.

They said on a tip off about a militant hideout, troops of 39 Rashtriya Rifles (RR) and Special Operation Group (SOG) of Jammu and Kashmir launched a joint operation at village Danwasd Gadool in south Kashmir district of Anantnag.

During the search a militant hideout was unearthed, they said adding utensils, blankets, sleeping bag, medicines and Army uniforms were recovered. However, the militants had left the hideout before the raid, they said adding no one was arrested.

They said in another operation in the frontier district of Kupwara, one Over Ground Worker (OGW) of LeT Nazir Ahmad Mir, a resident of Pahaldogi was arrested from main market Magam alongwith two hand grenades by police.

Meanwhile, 6 RR apprehended three HM militants Bilal Ahmad Wani , Imran Ahmad Wani and Mohammad Ashraf Gogri at Handwara. One AK 56, two magazines, 60 rounds and eight UBGL were recovered from their possession.

Sources said on specific information police broke open the shop of Showkat Ahmad Shalla near Hotel Plaza Sopore in Baramulla District in presence of tehsildar Sopore and some civilians. During the search one hand grenade was recovered from the shop, they said adding the shopkeeper was absconding.


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## EjazR

*Dr Shabir Choudhry's blog: My response to a Pakistani critic*

Aslamo alaykam Bhai Sahib

1. I don&#8217;t know what to call you &#8211; teddy bear can&#8217;t be your name.

2. Anyhow I didn&#8217;t mean to cause any offence to you or anyone else. I can&#8217;t see any cause of offence, as I have only stated some facts. You have every right to disagree with what I have said, but remember we don&#8217;t always like what we see in the mirror.

3. Please get your facts right, the tribesmen did not go to J&K to &#8216;liberate&#8217; us they were sent to grab Kashmir and punish the Maharaja who refused to join Pakistan; and they were told to loot and plunder the J&K. They killed, looted and raped women, Muslims and non Muslims. There is ample evidence on this, and some of it written by some honest Pakistani writers as well. I am also attaching something for your consideration.

4. With regard to 1965, again get your facts right. It is proved beyond any doubt that Operation Gibraltar was not carried out to liberate Kashmiris. I will attach a paper for your information.

5. If it was not for Pakistan we would have been independent state. It was the tribal invasion planned and supported by Pakistan which forced the Maharaja to seek help from India, hence the forced division and all the problems we face on both sides of the divide.

6. Furthermore it was Pakistani officials who complicated the matter by making it a bilateral dispute rather than an issue of right of self determination. It was they who changed the name from Kashmir issue to India and Pakistan dispute. It was Pakistani officials who suggested changes to the first UNCIP Resolution and limited Kashmiri peoples right of self determination to accession to either India or Pakistan. It was Pakistan who signed Tashkant and Shimla Pacts and practically made the Kashmir dispute a bilateral issue - and now issue of water.

7. Pakistani governments have been exploiting our resources since 1947, our hard earned foreign exchange is also used by your government; and you are not happy if our people are working in your cities. If we become independent and we have sincere leadership there, not like what Pakistan have, then it would be people from other countries including Pakistan coming to work in J&K. Even now do you know how many Pakistani people live in Gilgit Baltistan and exploit our resources? Above all in clear violation of State Subject Law they have purchased land there.

8. Do you know how many countries are there in the world without ports, so please don&#8217;t give me that?

9. As for Pakistani passport is concerned it is only a travelling document; and under the international law it is Pakistan&#8217;s obligation, but that doesn&#8217;t changes our status; as it doesn&#8217;t change status of Palestinians. Those Palestinians who live in Syria they hold Syrian passport and those who live in Egypt they hold Egyptian passport so on and so forth.

10. By the way do you know many Pakistanis living abroad, when asked do not tell others that they are from Pakistan? Does that mean anything to you?

11. If you leave our country I am sure we will be able to make a passport &#8211; it is not a rocket science. But do you think your army will leave AJK and Gilgit Baltistan &#8211; never willingly. Do you know how many millions your army is making from the resources of Neelam valley alone? I suggest you visit the area and see the plight of the people and see how the army and timber mafia and mafia associated with precious stones are exploiting the area and puppets of Muzaffarabad have no say in these matters.

12. During the time when Kashmir was independent people used to come from undivided India, Tibet, China and other countries to study there. I don&#8217;t think Pakistani education has much credibility. Once independent we can set up our own institutions, and I assure you that we will also care for educational needs of our Pakistani brothers.

13. Oh, please do tell me what your &#8216;official capacity&#8217; is. Is that some kind of hidden threat? Remember we live in 2010 and not in Somalia. My friend, it should be you who should apologise for looting and plundering my country and its resources.

14. I wish Pakistan genuine democracy, stability, prosperity, and ability to live in peace with itself and with neighbours, but if and when we get independence we don&#8217;t know what will be the situation of South Asia at that time; and how many more &#8216;Tans&#8217; there will be apart from Hindustan and Pakistan.

15. I have tried to be respectful and I hope you won&#8217;t get angry for showing mirror to you.

16. I hope you will find time to read them and correct wrong assumptions.

Shabir


----------------
Original post


Dr. Shabir Chaudhry,
I am a Pakistani Citizen from the South of Pakistan and after reading your reading you wrote, I have no hesitation in stating that I am seriously offended.

What you wrote makes me think that My men wasted their lives trying to provide your men the freedom and dignity in 1948 and 1965 if you wish not to join Pakistan. Did we send our Pashtoon, Punjabi and Urdu-speak to fight someone else&#8217;s war?
You seem to be quite determined to have independent state of Kashmir. Go and take it if you can without our help.

Even if you manage to get your long overdue independence, Do not come to us for handouts. How would you export your products without the access to port cities of Karachi and Gwadar? If you decide to go independent, prepare yourself to pay Govt levies in order to use our ports.

Secondly, so many Kashmiris from Azad Kashmir are working in the Lahore, Karachi and Islamabad. They will be expelled with immediate effect. Of course, if our own
citizens don&#8217;t have jobs, why will we offer jobs to Kashmiris who will be Non-Pakistanis?

We would be better off without Kashmir as my native City of Karachi contributes 70&#37; revenues to the Govt treasury which is used to feed the economically backward valleys of Kashmir. Without Kashmir, it will only contribute 60%. Our army will have less area and people to protect and defend. You need us more than we need you.
We have oil, gas and Coal reserves in the south. Tell me something that you have in Kashmir which is of some economic value. Do you think you can run your economy on water, Barley and wheat?

As per travel, your citizens will need Pakistani visas frequently, compared to Pakistani citizens needing the Kashmiri visa. Because for tourism, we will visit NWFP or Quetta or Interior Sindh, rather than visiting Kashmir. Yet for better education, better medical treatment, you will have to visit Islamabad and Lahore. If your citizens choose to Study in our Institutes or looked for medical treatment in our Hospitals, We will certainly charge 4 times. And why should not be&#8230; You will be foreigners to us.

I don&#8217;t care what You respond, But we will not come and beg you to join us rather you will, just like Ras Al-khaima opted to stay out of UAE in 1971 but within a year came running to join it. Why&#8221;? because it could not survive alone.

If you hate &#8220;this Pakistan that you see on TV screens,&#8221; then why Your Kashmiri Citizens use Our Green Passport, call them Pakistanis while travelling abroad and bring drugs with them. Get your own passport and use that.

Thanks be to Allah that I read this on the Internet, if I had heard it in my official capacity, I would have demanded an official apology.
Teddybear


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## gurjot

PAFAce said:


> *Q - What do you mean by Azadi (freedom) I asked him?
> 1. We dont want the Indian army here.
> 2. We want India to be out of Kashmir. We dont want to be part of India.
> 3. We will have azadi (freedom) from India and run our own government, or join Pakistan, he said.*



sorry nothing will happen


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## blain2

^^ Then why bother posting the bakvaas articles and someone's blogs? As if this Choudhry chap represents all of the IoK.


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## gurjot

EjazR said:


> *[
> Dr. Shabir Chaudhry,
> I am a Pakistani Citizen from the South of Pakistan and after reading your reading you wrote, I have no hesitation in stating that I am seriously offended.
> 
> What you wrote makes me think that My men wasted their lives trying to provide your men the freedom and dignity in 1948 and 1965 if you wish not to join Pakistan. Did we send our Pashtoon, Punjabi and Urdu-speak to fight someone elses war?
> You seem to be quite determined to have independent state of Kashmir. Go and take it if you can without our help.
> 
> Even if you manage to get your long overdue independence, Do not come to us for handouts. How would you export your products without the access to port cities of Karachi and Gwadar? If you decide to go independent, prepare yourself to pay Govt levies in order to use our ports.
> 
> Secondly, so many Kashmiris from Azad Kashmir are working in the Lahore, Karachi and Islamabad. They will be expelled with immediate effect. Of course, if our own
> citizens dont have jobs, why will we offer jobs to Kashmiris who will be Non-Pakistanis?
> 
> We would be better off without Kashmir as my native City of Karachi contributes 70% revenues to the Govt treasury which is used to feed the economically backward valleys of Kashmir. Without Kashmir, it will only contribute 60%. Our army will have less area and people to protect and defend. You need us more than we need you.
> We have oil, gas and Coal reserves in the south. Tell me something that you have in Kashmir which is of some economic value. Do you think you can run your economy on water, Barley and wheat?
> 
> As per travel, your citizens will need Pakistani visas frequently, compared to Pakistani citizens needing the Kashmiri visa. Because for tourism, we will visit NWFP or Quetta or Interior Sindh, rather than visiting Kashmir. Yet for better education, better medical treatment, you will have to visit Islamabad and Lahore. If your citizens choose to Study in our Institutes or looked for medical treatment in our Hospitals, We will certainly charge 4 times. And why should not be You will be foreigners to us.
> 
> I dont care what You respond, But we will not come and beg you to join us rather you will, just like Ras Al-khaima opted to stay out of UAE in 1971 but within a year came running to join it. Why? because it could not survive alone.
> 
> If you hate this Pakistan that you see on TV screens, then why Your Kashmiri Citizens use Our Green Passport, call them Pakistanis while travelling abroad and bring drugs with them. Get your own passport and use that.
> 
> Thanks be to Allah that I read this on the Internet, if I had heard it in my official capacity, I would have demanded an official apology.
> Teddybear*


*

ha ha ,will cause flames like this*


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## desiman

The fact is that no matter what happens, Kashmir stays with India. Anyone with any other thoughts is wasting their time.


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## EjazR

This was written in the same magazine in response to Roy's piece on Kashmir.

*www.outlookindia.com | The Azadi We Need*

Towards the end of her impassioned piece calling for azadi for Kashmir, Arundhati Roy pauses to reflect on what might follow azadi in Kashmir, wondering what an independent Kashmir might mean, including what the independence demanded by the state's Muslim majority might mean for the state's religious or other minorities. She does well not to linger, because the thought experiment illustrates precisely what is most problematic about "national movements", namely that they are unable to think the political except through the prism of nation-states. 

National movements, that is to say, see themselves as nation-states-in-waiting, and do not see any political horizon beyond that of the nation-state. So was it with the Indian national movement, and its inability to think the difference that might have been capacious enough to house the country's Muslim-majority regions; so it definitely was with the Muslim League and its two-nation theory, even more wedded to the siren song of European-style nationalism transplanted to a colonial setting; and so it is with the "copycat" nationalisms that have followed, be it Kashmir, or Punjab, or Nagaland. The failure to imagine a nation-state different from the traditional European model, the shoe-horning of Indian communitarian identities, into models conceived with the likes of Germany and England in mind, paved the way for the catastrophes of partition. The "belated" nationalisms of the post-partition sub-continent demonstrate the truth of Marx's depressing observation, namely that we learn from history that we do not learn from history.

The point is worth making given Roy's trenchant critiques of the Indian state (in the context of Kashmir, but not only of Kashmir; her essay on the Indian state and dams, The Greater Common Good, is astonishingly powerful). That is, much of Roy's critique -- of the Indian state's indifference, its callousness, its inhumanity, its cruelty -- is (or certainly ought to be) animated not by her target's Indianness, but by the fact that it is a nation-state, and as such, does what nation-states do: in the final analysis, sacrifice humanity in the service of a larger political project. The distinction is an important one, because nothing in the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up anything different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional nation-state just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a different result. Minority rights? Justice for different communities, and between genders? The outcomes will be better than they are now, we are told by the movement, not because the aims are different from those of the existing Indian state, but because the movement will simply do a better job.

I am skeptical, and not because of the identity (religious or otherwise) of those who comprise the Kashmiri independence movement; I am skeptical because the aim of that movement is congenitally incapable of producing a result that is "better" in some cosmic sense -- at most the identities of those disadvantaged will shift, as new disfavoured minorities, new "outsiders", new "insiders", and new identity policemen are created. Roy is too sophisticated not to see this, but doesn't bother to delve into it, pretending that this is merely a question of the Kashmiri separatists not having spelled out their agenda in greater detail as yet. It is not: over half a century ago, Hannah Arendt wrote (in The Origins of Totalitarianism) of the masses of refugees and victims that seemed to accompany the birth of every new nation-state, and nothing has changed, not in the age of South Ossetia, Kosovo, Rwanda, ad nauseum. 

Certainly, those of us from the sub-continent should be especially wary of political projects that promise us clean solutions to intractable political problems: we live with the legacies of the bloodbaths of the 1940s, not to mention innumerable later, "lesser" massacres. By all accounts, the leaders of the new nation-states of India and Pakistan were caught by surprise by the scale of the violence in 1947; they had evidently internalized the logic of colonialism, pursuant to which communitarian difference presents a political "problem" that may be solved by means of creative cartography and judicious population transfers. Conceptual neatness is one of the hallmarks of the colonial mindset (thinking of Cyril Radcliffe, who could doubt it?). 

Unfortunately, reality is anything but, and the sub-continent's leaders -- and, even more importantly, its people -- should have learned long ago that partitions are not the solution to people's inability to live together; rather, the mindset that vests its faith in drawing easily-policed borders is a mindset that demands enemies. It is a mindset that, in the final analysis, demands that facts on the ground correspond to the political project of the nation-state (and not the other way around). A nation-state for Muslims thus becomes a state virtually free of non-Muslims; a sub-national state where Hindu pride is honoured above all else becomes a state where non-Hindus must know their place. 

Why would one ever hope for anything different from a nation-state for Kashmiris, as far as those who don't fit the bill are concerned? Certainly the region is not short of candidates for stigmatisation (some of this is because India is fantastically diverse; some of it is because nation-states are rather gifted at manufacturing "problematic" identities): Buddhists; Shiites; Gujjars; perhaps even Sunni Muslims who will be deemed insufficiently supportive of the independence movement (the last is hardly far-fetched, as even a casual glance at the history of Algeria or the Khalistan movement, or Kashmir itself during the 1990s, makes clear). Indeed, several hundred thousand Kashmiri Pandits have already been driven off, and it is hard not to see in them a harbinger of more to come.

The above might seem like an odd place from which to maintain a defense of India vis-&#224;-vis Kashmir. It is, on the contrary, a natural vantage point: the idea of an independent Kashmir for Kashmiris must be resisted precisely because, as the experience of the once-colonised has amply illustrated, nation-states are appallingly inhuman. Equally, however, they are not all inhuman in precisely the same way; nor are they all equally inhuman, by which I simply mean that they are not all equally incapable of accommodating human difference, whether communitarian or otherwise. The Germany of 2008 is manifestly not the Germany of 1938; but nor does the Germany of 2008 accommodate ethnic minorities as comfortably as the United States does. 

None of this relieves any state of moral responsibility for the horrors it perpetrates; but in order to agitate against horrors, one must first understand what they are. And within the range of nation-states on offer -- all of them problematic, all of them complicit in cruelty -- it is apparent to me that those premised on explicit notions of religion, language, ethnicity, blood in some sense, are more problematic, more complicit, than those with far more modest litmus tests. The contemporary United States, Brazil, South Africa, and, yes, India, are among the latter group of nation-states; Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Pakistan, and, based on the logic of the movements, the would-be nation-states of Kashmir or Khalistan, are not. Theoretically, one does not need to be other than "wholly Bengali", "wholly Tamil", or "wholly Muslim" in order to be utterly Indian; one cannot say the same of Pakistan and its Hindus citizens, and the religious colour of the Kashmiri movement means it is almost inconceivable that this won't be true of an independent Kashmir as well (even leaving aside the obvious ethnic dimension).

Indeed, even if one were to take the likes of Yasin Malik at their word, they promise no more than Jawaharlal Nehru did, that is to say a secular state where all who live in Kashmir, of whatever ethnicity or religious persuasion, will be equal in the eyes of the state; why and how could such a project -- essentially the same Nehruvian show on a smaller stage -- yield a better result? On the contrary, all the signs are that an independent Kashmir would be more like Pakistan than India: not because both are Muslim majority (that is irrelevant to the point I am making), but because both movements are explicitly predicated on a favoured community that is less than everyone who lives within the state's borders.

Why does any of this matter? Because nation-states where "second-class" citizenship is implicit -- think the United States prior to de-segregation; I assume Roy would include India; but really one could argue some are always more equal than others in all nation-states -- can be called out on their failures. Such nation-states are guilty of hypocrisy, but hypocrisy is not the worst sin; indeed hypocrisy, by opening up a gap between theory and practice, between promise and reality, makes it possible to hold a mirror up to the state, to try and compel it to honour its own promise to itself; and enables us to argue that the nation-state is only imperfectly itself until it takes a good long look in that mirror. 

In short, the point is that while the Jim Crow South is unforgiveable, the civil rights movement and Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" moment are possible in a USA where actual practice made a mockery of the nation-state's constitutional guarantees of equal protection under the laws; they would not be possible in the face of apartheid South Africa, which could not be reformed, simply destroyed. It is far more difficult, perhaps insurmountably so, to call the nation-state to task where it has promised and can promise nothing different than what it offers (one can rebel and try and dismantle the state, but one can't make it see the problem): beyond a point, a "Pakistan for Pakistanis", that is to say for Pakistanis of all religious persuasions, would make no sense, and would undermine the national idea (substitute "ethnicities" for "religious communities" and the idea of Pakistan becomes more flexible; it should come as no surprise that the movement for ethnic justice, greater federalism, and rights for smaller provinces, has far more legs in Pakistan than any movement for the rights of religious minorities; ethnicity illustrates the potential flexibility, but also the limits, of the idea of Pakistan; and even with respect to ethnicity, the difference of even a Bengali Muslim identity that was deemed "too Hindu" could not be accommodated within the state). 

A "Kashmir for Kashmiris" is far closer to the idea of Pakistan than to the Nehru's India, and perhaps closest of all to Bangladesh, seeking to compress both 1947 and 1971 in one secessionist moment. Roy would do well to remember the "Biharis" stranded in refugee camps in Bangladesh since 1971, Muslim but not Bangladeshi enough; and she herself mentions the 1971 genocide of Bengalis by the Pakistani army, who were not Muslim enough. The promise of the Kashmiri movement combines both of these nightmares.

None of this is about the decency or lack thereof of Mirwaiz Farooq, or Yasin Malik, or anyone else. The question isn't whether these are or are not upstanding politicians who genuinely believe that Kashmir belongs to all Kashmiris, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, or Sikh, or not; the more important question concerns the logic of what they let loose in the world (more accurately, the logic that they and would-be nationalists of all stripes have attempted to replicate for decades). The azadi demanded by the Kashmiri movement, and used by Roy as a rallying cry, is not the answer to that question; the freedom we need is azadi from the mindset that thinks of peoples and communities only in terms of nation-states; and equally, an azadi that demands that the Indian state honour its promise, to itself and to us. 

The nation-state as political Alpha and Omega was problematic in its European birthplaces to begin with; to continue to cling to it as the last best hope of ethnic or religious minorities in milieus like India's (or Africa's, or the Balkans'; pick your poison), in the wake of the man-made disasters that have befallen us over the last century, is nothing short of bankrupt. 

_Umair Ahmed Muhajir is based in New York City. When not blogging at qalandari.blogspot.com or contributing to naachgaana.com, he makes a living as a lawyer._

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## rubyjackass

Awe some ejaz bhaiyyaaa!!! 
Exactly what I have in mind. A philosophical response to the idealistic self-proclaimed activists. 
My favourite parts which are the exact same thoughts I tried to express several times but failed to do so.


> Indeed, even if one were to take the likes of Yasin Malik at their word, they promise no more than Jawaharlal Nehru did, that is to say a secular state where all who live in Kashmir, of whatever ethnicity or religious persuasion, will be equal in the eyes of the state; why and how could such a project -- essentially the same Nehruvian show on a smaller stage -- yield a better result?


-------------------


> so, to call the nation-state to task where it has promised and can promise nothing different than what it offers (one can rebel and try and dismantle the state, but one can't make it see the problem): beyond a point, a "Pakistan for Pakistanis", that is to say for Pakistanis of all religious persuasions, would make no sense, and would undermine the national idea




-----------------


> None of this is about the decency or lack thereof of Mirwaiz Farooq, or Yasin Malik, or anyone else. The question isn't whether these are or are not upstanding politicians who genuinely believe that Kashmir belongs to all Kashmiris, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, or Sikh, or not; the more important question concerns the logic of what they let loose in the world (more accurately, the logic that they and would-be nationalists of all stripes have attempted to replicate for decades).


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## Gazzi

on violent movement................hmm...interesting thought............what was it that Gandhi called the Britishers who used its Military against the mass polpulations during non violent protests...........hmmm, very interesting......

The oppressed become the oppressers........wow, what a headline that would make......HYPOCRISY at its best


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## rubyjackass

which title are u referring to?


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## ice_man

@zebronic 70&#37; election voting turnout??? can you back your great statement???

KASHMIR IS NOT INDIAN NOR PAKISTANI! KASHMIR IS FOR KASHMIRIS!
*
your country has engulfed and has given lolly pop(azad Kashmir ) to illiterate Kashmiri.. *


interesting so kashimirs shouldn't rule themselves?????


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## EjazR

*@ rubyjackass *

You should commend Umair Ahmed Muhajir, the writer. A little offtopic, but his article on the Maoists and the support by people like Roy and the deconstruction of her "logic" is equally fascinating.

*www.outlookindia.com | More Pages From Dantewada*

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## hillman32

Kashmir belongs to Kashmiri People and they have to finally decide their future


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## prodevelopment

hillman32 said:


> Kashmir belongs to Kashmiri People



Doesn't that sound a lot like Maharashtra for Marathis


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## notsuperstitious

> Indeed, even if one were to take the likes of Yasin Malik at their word, they promise no more than Jawaharlal Nehru did, that is to say a secular state where all who live in Kashmir, of whatever ethnicity or religious persuasion, will be equal in the eyes of the state; why and how could such a project -- essentially the same Nehruvian show on a smaller stage -- yield a better result?



Didn't Jinnah promise something like that too?


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## rubyjackass

^^^ 
That is exactly the point the author was trying to make.
---
When Nehruvian idea of India was to let people have their rights without regards to religion, what is the point in demanding a new state and then saying our new state will have no regard for religion?

Read my fav quotes.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Tuesday, 13 April 2010
Rabi-us-Sani 27, 1431*


> SRINAGAR: *Thousands of government forces in riot gear patrolled the deserted streets of the Indian-administered Kashmir on Tuesday during a general strike staged by separatist groups protesting the recent conviction of five Kashmiris for a New Delhi bombing.*
> 
> The strike shut most shops, schools and businesses and public transport buses stayed off the roads in Srinagar.
> 
> *On Tuesday, police detained at least 10 protesters as they chanted We want freedom, Down with state terrorism in Lalchowk, Srinagars commercial hub, a police officer said on condition of anonymity as he was not authorized to speak to the media.*
> 
> Authorities banned the assembly of more than five people at one place to avoid any outbreak of violence, said Farooq Ahmed, a senior police officer.
> 
> Government workers are already on strike in the region demanding higher wages and a new retirement age of 60, instead of 58.
> 
> *The All Parties Hurriyat Conference called the strike on Tuesday, when a New Delhi court sentenced five Kashmiris for carrying out the 1996 bombing of a New Delhi shopping centre that killed 13 people and wounded 38.*
> 
> Four of the five convicted face a death penalty or life imprisonment.
> 
> *Farida Dar, a top Kashmiri separatist leader, faces seven years in jail for her complicity in the crime.*
> 
> Syed Ali Shah Geelani, another separatist leader, accused the Indian judiciary of bias against Kashmiris.
> 
> *Kashmiri people are being victimized for demanding the right of self-determination, Geelani said in a statement.*
> 
> The bombing of New Delhis busy Lajpat Nagar market on May 21, 1996 left 13 people dead and over three dozen injured.
> 
> The accused were arrested soon after the incident when police traced the phone calls they made to various news organisations claiming responsibility for the attack. Agencies




DAWN.COM | World | Srinagar on strike as Kashmiris protest court ruling


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## Abu Zolfiqar

blaming me as if i wrote the article? 

it seems everyday Sri Nagar is under curfew, people calling for freedom. Nothing new with that.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

that's the funny part.....pay them, and still they want separation. Proof that finances wont placate them.


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## Areesh

So the shops are closed because the strike is called by the Jammu and Kashmir Secretariat Employees Association.


Humm interesting. Salary ka problem Kashmir Secretariat ka hai aur strike parchoon ki dukan wala kar raha hai.

Interesting and Strange.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

> Updated at: 1945 hrs (IST), Tuesday, April 13
> 
> Srinagar: A boy drowned to death while 24 others were hurt in daylong clashes between protestors and paramilitary forces/police in Kashmir Tuesday.
> 
> Police fired teargas and used batons to break up demonstrations in Srinagar and the northern town of Sopore. Protestors retaliated by hurling rocks and bricks and in the ensuing clashes 18 protesters and six policemen were injured, police said.
> 
> A 17-year old boy namely Zubair Ahmed died when he slipped into River Jhelum near Jamia Kadeem bridge as police were chasing him during a protest in Sopore, 50 kms from here. The death sparked widespread protests in the area, which were on till this report was filed.
> 
> In the meantime, police detained nearly a dozen women activists who were protesting against the conviction of woman politician Farida Behanji in Lal Chowk today. A curfew-like situation prevailed in Old Srinagar throughout the day. (Inputs from Correspondent, Umar Maqbool)



www.greaterkashmir.com/today/?show=todaypaper&Date=13_4_2010


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## RobbieS

_Get your facts straight. And just saying that you didnt write the article doesn't absolve you. As the thread starter, its your responsibility to check the veracity of the article. 

To the Mods - What do you have to say about this? Or would you delete my post instead?_

*********************************

*Kashmir employees extend strike*

Kashmir employees extend strike

State employees in Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir say they will continue their current strike until April 17 if the government does not respond to their demands.

The employees, who have already been on strike for the last nine days, have threatened to shutdown essential services across the state if the government does not accede to their various demands, including release of arrears.

"On the evening of April 17, we will shut down electric supply across the state symbolically for one hour. If the government does not accede to our demands by then, we will be forced to include all the essential services in our future strike program," Khurshid Alam, president of the Employees' Joint Action Committee, told reporters on Monday.

The union leader of the striking employees also said the government's pressure tactics would not succeed in breaking up the strike.

"There seem to be two governments in the state. On the one hand, the chief minister invites us for talks, and on the other hand, the police cracks down on us, arresting our activists," he said.

The striking employees have been demanding payment of arrears of their hiked salaries as recommended by the sixth Pay Commission.

The government has now decided to consider the demands of the employees only after they return to their duties.

FTP/HGL

*MOD EDIT: its not any poster's fault if the news website is by and large acceptable*


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## Optimus

What kind of sick people on this forum - Who encourage extremism


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## Abu Zolfiqar

which post are you referring to?


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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> that's the funny part.....pay them, and still they want separation. Proof that finances wont placate them.



They haven't been paid yet.. And I hear on the news that the strike has been called of after the CM agreed to some of their demand.. Indians every where are same.. 


JK govt staff call off strike on CM's assurance: Rediff.com India News


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## afriend

self delete duplicate post


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## karan.1970

already a thread.. mods, pl merge


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

"In an unexpected announcement, India's telecommunications and information technology ministries banned subscribers with monthly contracts from sending messages, while pre-paid mobile users will be limited to 10 a day.

There was no explanation for the move beyond saying it was &#8220;in the interest of the national security.&#8221;

In October last year all pre-paid phones were banned after reports that they were being used by militants.

Kashmir chief minister Omar Abdullah termed the ban &#8220;harassment.&#8221; &#8220;An officer sitting in the department of telecommunications or home ministry cannot decide what is right or what is wrong for the people of my state,&#8221; Abdullah told the Press Trust of India news agency.

He said the state government was attempting to bridge the gap between the unpopular government in New Delhi and Kashmiris, and such moves as restricting SMSs were &#8220;dampeners.&#8221; &#8220;This harassment needs to be put to an end once and for all,&#8221; he said.

&#8220;The step proves beyond doubt that every Kashmiri is a suspect in the eyes of Indians,&#8221; businessman Abdul Hamid told AFP in Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian Kashmir.

Mobile phones were launched in Kashmir only in 2003 after security agencies gave the go-ahead.

The ban on pre-paid phones was revoked in January this year after protests.
The ban affected 3.8 million users in Kashmir.

The sending of bulk SMSs through online portals was also banned under the new rules.

Abdullah admitted the state government had asked for a ban on sending bulk SMSs, &#8220;which we believe is being used to spread rumours and gossip.&#8221; &#8220;This request has not been understood properly,&#8221; he said.&#8212;AFP"

Source

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## indopak

*Centre bans SMS in J&K, then backtracks*

NEW DELHI: Within hours of banning the SMS service for post-paid subscribers and restricting the facility for pre-paid users in Jammu and Kashmir, the Centre on Friday withdrew its order following a strong protest by the state which charged the telecom and the home ministries with `goofing-up' on the entire issue due to poor understanding of the matter.

Earlier in the day, citing security reasons, the telecom ministry had asked service providers in J&K to ban SMS for post-paid subscribers and restrict the facility to 10 messages per day per pre-paid subscriber with effect from Friday midnight.

State chief minister Omar Abdullah, however, immediately lodged a protest with the Union home ministry, which, in turn, asked the telecom ministry to withdraw its order.

It is now learnt that the telecom ministry will come out with a fresh directive on the SMS service in due course. This will be done only after a thorough discussion of the issue among officials of the state government and the telecom and home ministries.

"The fresh order may not touch individual subscribers who send `single' or very limited number of `bulk' text messages per day," said a home ministry official.

The `goof-up' during the day was made as the telecom ministry issued the ban order in the case of both `single' as well as `bulk' text messages, allegedly ignoring the state's concern which had asked for banning of only `bulk' SMSes due to security reasons.

The state's concern regarding `bulk' messages was even endorsed by the home ministry, which had found that the service was increasingly being misused by unscrupulous elements to spread rumours and to mobilize a large number of people at short notice.

The official said: "Such elements were also found using templates carrying provocative messages. They used to send such templates to hundreds of people in one go, mobilizing their presence on streets for sloganeering or even stone pelting."

Reacting to the telecom ministry's step, chief minister Omar Abdullah slammed the Centre saying that the state's security concerns were misunderstood. The issue was bulk SMSes and not the SMS facility for individual subscribers.

"We asked for a ban on bulk SMS facility which we believe is being used to spread rumours and gossip in the name of news....This request has not been understood properly (by the Centre)," Omar was quoted as saying by a news agency.

He said that while dealing with the state, the Centre should show more seriousness and understanding. "An officer sitting in the department of telecommunication (DoT) or the home ministry cannot decide what is right or what is wrong for the people of my state," he was quoted as saying.

The DoT in its order, which was subsequently withdrawn, asked the service providers to immediately stop schemes/tariff packages of free SMS service. Besides, it directed that SMSes originating outside the J&K service area in India and from the networks of ILD operators should not be delivered to mobile subscribers in the J&K service area.

It even extended the ban in case of bulk SMS connection/facility/SMS interface given to the telemarketers/users in J&K.


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## Justin Joseph

The occupied Kashmir is not in India, also the ban has been lifted.

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## ice_man

Justin Joseph said:


> The occupied Kashmir is not in India, also the ban has been lifted.



yes occupied kashmir is occupied by CROATIA!!!  

love this you call it *** on BR!!  if indians really feel we occupying it come get it boys! that would be fun a very nice twist to the whole scenario!


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## Abhiras

ice_man said:


> yes occupied kashmir is occupied by CROATIA!!!
> 
> love this you call it *** on BR!!  if indians really feel we occupying it come get it boys!* that would be fun* a very nice twist to the whole scenario!


from when did pakistan had become 'croatia' ??

Unlike India, Pakistan never formally annexed the portion of Kashmir under its control. 

The death of thousands of brave soldier from both side will give you fun....great....


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## mrwarrior006

occupied kashmir?


its indian territory

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## karan.1970

*2 More sent to meet their maker*

The Hindu : National : Two militants killed in gun battle in Kashmir

Two militants killed in gun battle in Kashmir 









Srinagar: A top leader of the Hizbul Mujahideen and a suspected Pakistani militant were killed in a gun battle with security forces in Shopian district of South Kashmir on Friday, police said.

The police, assisted by troops of the 44 Rashtriya Rifles cordoned off Tharima-Keller, 65 km from here, in the evening following inputs that militants were hiding in the area.

During searches, the militants lurking in a house opened fire and were killed in retaliatory fire, police said.

The slain militants were identified as Fayaz Peer, &#8216;divisional commander' of the Hizbul Mujahideen, and a Pakistani national identified as Usma, police said. &#8212; PTI


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## Evil Flare

mrwarrior006 said:


> occupied kashmir?
> 
> 
> its indian territory



Who Said ???


According to UN , its Indian Occupied Kashmir .


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## ARCHON

its not India occupied. .. call it Indians occupied.


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## Abhiras

Aamir Zia said:


> Who Said ???
> 
> 
> According to UN , its Indian Occupied Kashmir .



when UNO says kashmir as Indian Occupied Kashmir???


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## ARCHON

UN acknowledges it as Jammu and Kashmir.


United Nations Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP)

UNMOGIP Background - United Nations Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan


read.... and clear the doubt.

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## desiman

This is not Occupied Kashmir, its Indian territory, If the same logic applies then The part of Kashmir that Pakistan has is also Pakistani Occupied Kashmir. Its Indian territory and the buck stops there.

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## Areesh

desiman said:


> This is not Occupied Kashmir, its Indian territory, If the same logic applies then The part of Kashmir that Pakistan has is also Pakistani Occupied Kashmir. Its Indian territory and the buck stops there.



Death to Indian occupation and tyranny on Kashmir.

Long Live Kashmir Freedom Movement.

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## Kashmiri Nationalist

LOL, at you Indians. What have you been smoking? The part of Kashmir India owns is occupied. In which part of Kashmir is there a resistance movement? In which part of Kashmir are there mass protests against Indian rule? In which part of Kashmir do most of the parties want to seccede? Answer: 'Indian' Kashmir


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## desiman

Azad Kashmir said:


> LOL, at you Indians. What have you been smoking? The part of Kashmir India owns is occupied. In which part of Kashmir is there a resistance movement? In which part of Kashmir are there mass protests against Indian rule? In which part of Kashmir do most of the parties want to seccede? Answer: 'Indian' Kashmir



blah blah blah blah same old rhetoric, hasn't made a difference since 1947 and wont make a difference in the future.


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## karan.1970

And Jammu and Kashmir's GDP grows 2.5 times the rate of Paksitan's GDP 

No wonder Pakistan wants Kashmir...

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## desiman

karan.1970 said:


> And Jammu and Kashmir's GDP grows 2.5 times the rate of Paksitan's GDP
> 
> No wonder Pakistan wants Kashmir...



They will never accept that Karan, what you see is pure Hypocrisy at work. Cant even manage their own country but need to create problems in someone else's.These young so called "Internet warriors" dont even understand the reason behind the conflict but are so brainwashed that the only thing they know is to hate India. Arguing with them as worse than hitting your head on a wall lol.


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## Abhiras

Azad Kashmir said:


> LOL, at you Indians. What have you been smoking? The part of Kashmir India owns is occupied. In which part of Kashmir is there a resistance movement? In which part of Kashmir are there mass protests against Indian rule? In which part of Kashmir do most of the parties want to seccede? Answer: 'Indian' Kashmir


do not you think you should concentrate on Balochistan ,Sindhudesh ,Pashtunistan & do not forgot Islamic Emirate of Waziristan............before looking at india


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## forcetrip

What needs to be accepted is that you may call it as you like on your forums, here you will debate why its Indian Occupied Kashmir, not the other way around. There is no hate or misconceptions from this side, Pakistans stance has always been that Kashmir is a part of the country while you were typing the forum link, it says just that.


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## riju78

the decision to ban texts were withdrawn almost on the same day...so no need for this thread... it will just end up as another u and me fight!


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## karan.1970

forcetrip said:


> What needs to be accepted is that you may call it as you like on your forums, here you will debate why its Indian Occupied Kashmir, not the other way around.



Didnt understand the comment.. Are you saying that Indians will call it Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and Pakistanis will call it India Occupied Kashmir...??


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## forcetrip

karan.1970 said:


> Didnt understand the comment.. Are you saying that Indians will call it Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and Pakistanis will call it India Occupied Kashmir...??



Yes. Thats what it will be called till the matter is resolved by both parties. This has nothing to do with hate and mudslinging on either country has nothing to do with this issue.


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## Abhiras

cannot we use :Indian Administered kashmir & pakistan administered kashmir instead...


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## forcetrip

It is up to the moderators to decied what the right words to use for the subject. I personally would agree to Indians refering their side as Indian administered Kashmir, I however do not see why Pakistanis should call it Pakistani administered Kashmir on their own site. I hope you understand.


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## Abhiras

forcetrip said:


> It is up to the moderators to decied what the right words to use for the subject. I personally would agree to Indians refering their side as Indian administered Kashmir, I however do not see why Pakistanis should call it Pakistani administered Kashmir on their own site. I hope you understand.


i am saying pakistan should call indian occupied kashmir as indian administered kashmir 
& india should call pakistan occupied kashmir as pakistani administered kashmir....


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## forcetrip

Abhiras said:


> i am saying pakistan should call indian occupied kashmir as indian administered kashmir
> & india should call pakistan occupied kashmir as pakistani administered kashmir....



I have no problem with that if it is accepted on both sides. Not just by me and you or this site. Which will not happen.


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## Abhiras

forcetrip said:


> I have no problem with that if it is accepted on both sides. Not just by me and you or this site. Which will not happen.



Internationally(outside india & pakistan) It is accepted that ......'Jammu & Kashmir' (a integral state of India) borders with 'pakistan administered kashmir'

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## forcetrip

Abhiras said:


> Internationally(outside india & pakistan) It is accepted that ......'Jammu & Kashmir' (a integral state of India) borders with 'pakistan administered kashmir'



Not what the Indian Forums say. This is a forum as well, it not tit for tat. Its a countries stand. No point in fighting over whose propaganda is right or wrong. Respecting a guest is a two way street.


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## KS

karan.1970 said:


> *2 More sent to meet their maker*
> 
> The Hindu : National : Two militants killed in gun battle in Kashmir
> 
> Two militants killed in gun battle in Kashmir



man these rashtriya rifles must be one of the best COIN forces in the world...wat say u..?


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## KS

Areesh said:


> Death to Indian occupation and tyranny on Kashmir.
> 
> Long Live Kashmir Freedom Movement.



if only wishes were horses nd beggars would fly....

serioulsy dude u need some reality chk.


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## KS

ice_man said:


> yes occupied kashmir is occupied by CROATIA!!!
> 
> love this you call it *** on BR!!  if indians really feel we occupying it come get it boys! that would be fun a very nice twist to the whole scenario!



dude we r *absolutely fine with status quo*....it is u guys who go harping Occupied Kashmir,Occupied Kashmir at all forums....so it is u who shuld come nd get it..

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## pmukherjee

Karthic Sri said:


> man these rashtriya rifles must be one of the best COIN forces in the world...wat say u..?



They are good because they stay put in the same area for long periods of time and so can develop a good intelligence net work. COIN operations are all about intelligence. Normal infantry batallions have a fixed tenure but they dont do too badly either.

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## DesiGuy

Independent Kashmir cannot exits between India and Pakistan, so it's better if India and Pakistan stay in their Kashmir!


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

desiman said:


> blah blah blah blah same old rhetoric, hasn't made a difference since 1947 and wont make a difference in the future.



It made a difference in Mumbai, you should think before you post.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Abhiras said:


> do not you think you should concentrate on Balochistan ,Sindhudesh ,Pashtunistan & do not forgot Islamic Emirate of Waziristan............before looking at india



I was not aware when Waziristan become an "Islamic Emirate", also Pushtunistan movement is dead, and I am not aware of any "Sindhudesh". Or is this some latest information by world wide renowned fact based Indian Media, another conspricacy perhaps to do with Mughalistan


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

karan.1970 said:


> And Jammu and Kashmir's GDP grows 2.5 times the rate of Paksitan's GDP
> 
> No wonder Pakistan wants Kashmir...



You do not understand how GDP works, you are comparing a region to a country. I am sure AJK's GDP is much higher than a lot of Indian states <-- fair comparison.


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## KS

Azad Kashmir said:


> It made a difference in Mumbai, you should think before you post.



heyy no u r actually mistaken...It was actually Amar Singh disguised as Ajmal Kasab...
or is it that ur acknowledging Pakistas role in 26/11.??


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## KS

Azad Kashmir said:


> I was not aware when Waziristan become an "Islamic Emirate", also Pushtunistan movement is dead, and I am not aware of any "Sindhudesh". Or is this some latest information by world wide renowned fact based Indian Media, another conspricacy perhaps to do with Mughalistan



I dont want to go into the internal affairs of ur country..but not even an inch of our land is on offer...
So the Azad Kashmir(is it truly Azad - No) will be always on the other side of the LOC nd this will be our Kashmir come wat may..


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## KS

Azad Kashmir said:


> You do not understand how GDP works, you are comparing a region to a country. I am sure AJK's GDP is much higher than a lot of Indian states <-- fair comparison.



But the one Major difference is we DONT want ur AJK..do watever u want with it..
we r absolutely fine with status quo.


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## Mauryan

Azad Kashmir said:


> LOL, at you Indians. What have you been smoking? The part of Kashmir India owns is occupied. In which part of Kashmir is there a resistance movement? In which part of Kashmir are there mass protests against Indian rule? In which part of Kashmir do most of the parties want to seccede? Answer: 'Indian' Kashmir



So by your logic, Balochistan is pak occupied

Tibet and Xinjiang are China occupied.....

Same logic applies to all....


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## Jung yw

Azad Kashmir said:


> You do not understand how GDP works, you are comparing a region to a country. I am sure AJK's GDP is much higher than a lot of Indian states <-- fair comparison.


You're wrong buddy. AJK i.e the Pakistan occupied Kashmir is one of the most undeveloped areas of the world. Even far northeastern states of India are much much advanced than ***. Poverty, illiteracy, terrorism everything is prevalent. As a matter of fact Uttar Pradesh one of India's province's GDP is more than Pakistan.


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## Creder

desiman said:


> blah blah blah blah same old rhetoric, hasn't made a difference since 1947 and wont make a difference in the future.



yeh dude why should 40,000 dead bodies make any difference to you...and you speak too soon about the future, only time will tell


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## AliFarooq

Jung yw said:


> You're wrong buddy. AJK i.e the Pakistan occupied Kashmir is one of the most undeveloped areas of the world. Even far northeastern states of India are much much advanced than ***. Poverty, illiteracy, terrorism everything is prevalent. As a matter of fact Uttar Pradesh one of India's province's GDP is more than Pakistan.



well apparently in so called pakistan occupied kashmir, people don't fear for there lives, there is little military presence, people live in harmony, no mass graves, no riots, no protests. while in azad kashmir you have all that, yep Indians are hay wired. they have a hard time differencing between azad and occupied.


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## Indian_Idol

ice_man said:


> yes occupied kashmir is occupied by CROATIA!!!
> 
> love this you call it *** on BR!!  if indians really feel we occupying it come get it boys! that would be fun a very nice twist to the whole scenario!



man did u really missed the history classes???? find out who waged war and occupied the INDIAN territory. that region is till now called as P o K.. when u guys wage war for water its going to be a part of INDIA. Come on guys we are waiting...


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## Abhiras

Azad Kashmir said:


> I was not aware when Waziristan become an "Islamic Emirate", also Pushtunistan movement is dead, and I am not aware of any "Sindhudesh". Or is this some latest information by world wide renowned fact based Indian Media, another conspricacy perhaps to do with Mughalistan



Sindhudesh is the proposed state by the sindhu separatist 

The Islamic Emirate of Waziristan is a rebel organization, in Waziristan, Pakistan

IN Baluchistan, the world know, are sheding their blood for freedom...


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## Jung yw

AliFarooq said:


> well apparently in so called pakistan occupied kashmir, people don't fear for there lives, there is little military presence, people live in harmony, no mass graves, no riots, no protests. while in azad kashmir you have all that, yep Indians are hay wired. they have a hard time differencing between azad and occupied.


You may fool those on the other side of the border and not me. I've been there. People live in much more fear because of the terrorist camps. Besides there is a heavy presence of our rangers. All those claims of being that area as azaad are baseless just to divert world attention.

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## mrwarrior006

*@AliFarooq*


> well apparently in so called pakistan occupied kashmir, people don't fear for there lives, there is little military presence, people live in harmony, no mass graves, no riots, no protests. while in azad kashmir you have all that, yep Indians are hay wired. they have a hard time differencing between azad and occupied.



u r own statement doesnt help u.U say people in indian kashmir live in fear and then u say they protest.dono wat ar u trying to say


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## TaimiKhan

Jung yw said:


> You may fool those on the other side of the border and not me. I've been there. People live in much more fear because of the terrorist camps. Besides there is a heavy presence of our rangers. All those claims of being that area as azaad are baseless just to divert world attention.



There are no rangers in AJK, so there you get busted that you are no Pakistani. 

People who hide their true identify, get off the forum.


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## hillman32

Its ridiculous. how can they ban like that ?


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## Dr.Evil

hillman32 said:


> Its ridiculous. how can they ban like that ?



You seem to have wokenup too late. This ban was lifted within 24Hrs. 
We still seem to be arguing on this even when there is no ban.


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## Abhiras

hillman32 said:


> Its ridiculous. how can they ban like that ?


it is not banned


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Wednesday, 21 April 2010
Jumadi-ul-Awwal 06, 1431 *


> SRINAGAR: Police in Indian-occupied Kashmir said they had detained on Wednesday the organiser of a seminar that was to be addressed by phone by militants.
> 
> *Ahsan Untoo, the head of Human Rights Forum, a local rights group, was detained in a raid on a hotel an hour before the start of the event in Srinagar.*
> 
> Senior separatist Javed Mir was also taken to a nearby police station.
> 
> We have detained Untoo and Mir. We will not allow the seminar to take place, a police officer told AFP on condition of anonymity.
> 
> *The seminar was to discuss the role of pro-freedom leaders vis-à-vis the Kashmir issue and all separatist leaders in Indian-occupied Kashmir had agreed to participate.*
> 
> Untoo had said that Hafiz Muhammad Saeed, the head of a charity widely viewed as a front for banned militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba, would address the seminar.
> 
> Ahmed said Untoo was arrested for supporting and promoting the ideology of insurgent leader Saeed. Its unacceptable, he said.
> 
> *Police also detained four others including Javaid Ahmed Mir, a senior separatist leader.*
> 
> Untoo said the police action violated his right of freedom of expression as he had organised the conference to discuss unity among separatist groups.
> 
> They (Saeed and Salahuddin) were not the only people to speak, but guests included top human rights defenders and separatist leaders from our side of Kashmir as well, Untoo told reporters as the police took him away. Agencies




DAWN.COM | World | Indian police arrest human rights leader in Srinagar


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## karan.1970

Good job J&K Police...

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## Abu Zolfiqar

yes suppressing free speech and arresting people who havent committed a crime is very democratic behaviour 

''good job'' indeed

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## Mirza Jatt

J&K police makes arrest....this means J&K police is very active...hey that sounds just so normal...good job.

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## Prometheus

go j&k police go................you rock


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## Justin Joseph

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> *Wednesday, 21 April 2010
> Jumadi-ul-Awwal 06, 1431 *
> 
> 
> 
> DAWN.COM | World | Indian police arrest human rights leader in Srinagar






1. There is nothing called Indian occupied Kashmir.

2. Ahsan Untoo can't become human rights activist by starting a letter head organization but in reality a foreign funded separatist movement.

3. "Senior separatist Javed Mir was also taken to a nearby police station."

What's wrong in arresting a separatist, do u in welcome and facilitate this kind of persons in Baluchistan etc.??????

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## Justin Joseph

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> yes suppressing free speech and arresting people who havent committed a crime is very democratic behaviour
> 
> ''good job'' indeed







Word used by DAWN in this news is *"Senior separatist"*

*Can u tell me is it not again the law to run a separatist movement????*
*
What u do to the elements who runs "Separatist Movement" in Pakistan???*

Garland them or give them Nishan e Pakistan???

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## duhastmish

BLOODY DEMOCRACY! if this guy had anythign to do with Banned groups - they must have shot him dead before arresting him.

imagine if some guy in paksitan- was hosting an assambly - being with speech from bal thakrey to doom paksitan.

or if Osama speech in new york city.

Democracy kind of allow these - pseudo socialist to support terrorism .

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## Jagjit_Singh_Arora

He should be water boarded.


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## FireFighter

Indian Jatt said:


> J&K police makes arrest....this means J&K police is very active...hey that sounds just so normal...good job.



Yeah, arrest them, imprison 'em, torture 'em, shoot 'em, kill 'em all at once....i'd say nuke 'em all. just to get a piece of land. It's all normal in India.


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## Mirza Jatt

FireFighter said:


> Yeah, arrest them, imprison 'em, torture 'em, shoot 'em, kill 'em all at once....i'd say nuke 'em all. just to get a *piece of land*. It's all normal in India.



relax dude..dont get blown away in the winds of emotions....

terrorism,innocent killings,mumbai type attacks are done just to get this piece of land.

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## IBRIS

FireFighter said:


> Yeah, arrest them, imprison 'em, torture 'em, shoot 'em, kill 'em all at once....i'd say nuke 'em all. just to get a piece of land. It's all normal in India.


You mean do it just like you did in NWF with 155mm heavy artillery to clean out the separatists Talibans.

For the past 63 years It wasn't India who used heavy artillery and airstrikes to take out homegrown separatists. 

He's lucky enough to be in police custody, he's enjoying the fruits of democracy. He would of had vanished into thin air by ISI. If he had ever talked about separatist rights of Pakistan Occupied Kashmir.

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## TheBraveHeart

FireFighter said:


> Yeah, arrest them, imprison 'em, torture 'em, shoot 'em, kill 'em all at once....i'd say nuke 'em all. just to get a piece of land. It's all normal in India.



Dude, u need to know first whats normal in pakistan rather than what is normal in India...better check out the separatist movement in baluchistan,bangladesh and even pakistan occupied kashmir and how they are/were suppressed.....

by the way he was organizing a rally where some terrorist organization chief was going to deliver a speech by video conferencing ...so how does he become a human rights activist when he supports and organizes a rally where such dreaded murderers/killers are welcomed?? Are such people garlanded in Pakistan?? Will any activist who calls a rally for TTP chief be spared?

So before u throw mud on others look at ur self!!

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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> yes suppressing free speech and arresting people who havent committed a crime is very democratic behaviour
> 
> ''good job'' indeed



Hey.. Military's job is to protect democracy.. Not practise it.. These idiots claim they dont want to be a part of India. Well then they dont deserve the fundamental rights accorded to the citizens of India.. do they??


They invite people like Syed Salauddin and Azhar Mehmood to speak in their rallies.. They should be glad they are not tried for treason..

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## r3alist

> These idiots claim they dont want to be a part of India.



they are being occupied by oppressors, they are being occupied by foreigners who insist on ruling them, the occupiers are uninvited impostors of kashmir, the occupiers are indian.


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## toxic_pus

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> yes suppressing free speech and arresting people who havent committed a crime is very democratic behaviour
> 
> ''good job'' indeed





FireFighter said:


> Yeah, arrest them, imprison 'em, torture 'em, shoot 'em, kill 'em all at once....i'd say nuke 'em all. just to get a piece of land. It's all normal in India.


The Kashmiris on Indian side still enjoy far more freedom that those on the Pakistani side. 

_Regrets, however, that Pakistan has consistently failed to fulfil its obligations to introduce meaningful and representative democratic structures in AJK; notes in particular the continuing absence of Kashmiri representation in the Pakistan National Assembly, the fact that AJK is governed through the Ministry of Kashmir Affairs in Islamabad, that Pakistan officials dominate the Kashmir Council and that the Chief Secretary, the Inspector-General of Police, the Accountant-General and the Finance Secretary are all from Pakistan; *disapproves of the provision in the 1974 Interim Constitution which forbids any political activity that is not in accordance with the doctrine of Jammu and Kashmir as part of Pakistan and obliges any candidate for a parliamentary seat in AJK to sign a declaration of loyalty to that effect; is concerned that the Gilgit-Baltistan region enjoys no form of democratic representation whatsoever*; furthermore, draws attention to the fact that the Government of Pakistans 1961 Jammu and Kashmir (Administration of Property) Ordinance transferred the land controlled by Pakistan and which belonged to the State of Jammu and Kashmir on 15 August 1947 to the Federal Government [Para 18, EU Report on Kashmir, 2007 by Baroness Emma Nicholson]​_
As you can see your crocodile tears are fooling no one.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

toxic_pus said:


> *The Kashmiris on Indian side still enjoy far more freedom that those on the Pakistani side*.
> 
> _Regrets, however, that Pakistan has consistently failed to fulfil its obligations to introduce meaningful and representative democratic structures in AJK; notes in particular the continuing absence of Kashmiri representation in the Pakistan National Assembly, the fact that AJK is governed through the Ministry of Kashmir Affairs in Islamabad, that Pakistan officials dominate the Kashmir Council and that the Chief Secretary, the Inspector-General of Police, the Accountant-General and the Finance Secretary are all from Pakistan; *disapproves of the provision in the 1974 Interim Constitution which forbids any political activity that is not in accordance with the doctrine of Jammu and Kashmir as part of Pakistan and obliges any candidate for a parliamentary seat in AJK to sign a declaration of loyalty to that effect; is concerned that the Gilgit-Baltistan region enjoys no form of democratic representation whatsoever*; furthermore, draws attention to the fact that the Government of Pakistans 1961 Jammu and Kashmir (Administration of Property) Ordinance transferred the land controlled by Pakistan and which belonged to the State of Jammu and Kashmir on 15 August 1947 to the Federal Government [Para 18, EU Report on Kashmir, 2007 by Baroness Emma Nicholson]​_
> As you can see your crocodile tears are fooling no one.



Says it all ....no need to read the whole shyty post.........


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## IBRIS

r3alist said:


> they are being occupied by oppressors, they are being occupied by foreigners who insist on ruling them, the occupiers are uninvited impostors of kashmir, the occupiers are indian.



It's past your bed time.


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## FireFighter

Public rallies, protests, free speech and democratic values, should all be abolished and banned in Kashmir. No plebiscite, no voting, no dissent and other anti-India and pro-liberation should be tolerated in Kashmir. 

Afterall, these piss poor kashmirs are a national threat to India. You kno' they been waging war and been invading India since partition with ak47s and sticks n stones. They been behind all sorts of political and economical and social collapses and turmoils in India. they're the biggest threat to India's soverignity and want to some day capture and rule India. 700k pansy soldiers are clearly not enough, I'd say move in a few million soldiers and kill em all kashmiris at once, and replace 'em with the Hindu's and Dalits and the progeny of Hari Singh, the imperialists imposter; the rightful owners of Kashmir.


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## IBRIS

FireFighter said:


> Public rallies, protests, free speech and democratic values, should all be abolished and banned in Kashmir. No plebiscite, no voting, no dissent and other anti-India and pro-liberation should be tolerated in Kashmir.
> 
> Afterall, these piss poor kashmirs are a national threat to India. You kno' they been waging war and been invading India since partition with ak47s and sticks n stones. They been behind all sorts of political and economical and social collapses and turmoils in India. they're the biggest threat to India's soverignity. 700k pansy soldiers are clearly not enough, I'd say move in a few million soldiers and kill em all kashmiris at once, and replace 'em with the Hindu's and Dalits and the progeny of Hari Singh, the imperialists imposter; the rightful owners of Kashmir.




I'd say keep on TROLLING. You seem to be in good mood.


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## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> yes suppressing free speech and arresting people who havent committed a crime is very democratic behaviour
> 
> ''good job'' indeed



THey have commited the crime of sedition against the Indian state and threatening the territorial integrity of India.
So good job J&K police.


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## karan.1970

r3alist said:


> they are being occupied by oppressors, they are being occupied by foreigners who insist on ruling them, the occupiers are uninvited impostors of kashmir, the occupiers are indian.



ok.. But if thats what they think, Its pretty stupid to expect freedom of speech from Occupying oppressors.. Isnt it.. ?? 

Bloody hypocrites these guys.. They dont want to be Indian citizens while demanding the rights accorded to one..


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## Abu Zolfiqar

IBRIS said:


> He's lucky enough to be in police custody, he's enjoying the fruits of democracy.



these country'men' of yours on our forum seem to advocate some pretty brutal tactics against him

what gives 




> If he had ever talked about separatist rights of Pakistan Occupied Kashmir.



Pakistani/Kashmiris are not under constant curfews; not being strip-searched on daily basis for no reason.

Actually Pakistani Kashmir is fairly autonomous, they have their own functioning government and administration. There is always room for improvement since our country is far from perfect, but they have their rights and are much better off then their bretheren under occupation across the LoC. For that, I am certain


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## Abu Zolfiqar

don't worry. I welcome the news.

It'll only cause more resentment in Srinagar and other areas of occupied Kashmir where tempers already seem to be flaring; we already saw what's been brewing in Shopian, when those 2 teenage Muslim girls were raped and killed needlessly by we-know-who.


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## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> don't worry. I welcome the news.
> 
> It'll only cause more resentment in Srinagar; we already saw what's been brewing in Shopian, when those 2 teenage Muslim girls were raped and killed needlessly by we-know-who.



we-know-who...

who..?


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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> these country'men' of yours on our forum seem to advocate some pretty brutal tactics against him
> 
> what gives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistani/Kashmiris are not under constant curfews; not being strip-searched on daily basis for no reason.
> 
> Actually Pakistani Kashmir is fairly autonomous, they have their own functioning government and administration. There is always room for improvement since our country is far from perfect, but they have their rights and are much better off then their bretheren under occupation across the LoC. For that, I am certain



Your being certain of correctness of your claims doesnt mean too much is a debate.. Specially when a lot of international observers liek Baroness Emma Nicholson from EU dont agree with your claims...

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Karthic Sri said:


> we-know-who...
> 
> who..?



depends who you ask......indians were saying that they drowned. That claim was later rubbished after autopsy was carried out

now there are people 13 people  including six doctors  for "destroying evidence and creating disturbances" in the state by claiming that the women were raped and murdered by security personnel

massive coverup, and the families of the girls got no justice

this is the reason why many Kashmiris resort to bearing arms and openly fighting the indian presence in their lands


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## indian_warrior

JK police, cut his balls immediately and stop terrorist breading


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## riju78

Srinagar: Controversial seminar organiser arrested

The organiser of a seminar in Srinagar has been arrested in connection with his plans to playout recorded speeches of terrorists Hafiz Saeed and Masood Azhar on Kashmir issue.

Along with him, Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) leader, Javed Ahmed Mir, has also been arrested.

The leaders of both factions of the Hurriyat, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Yasin Malik have been invited to the seminar.

Hizbul chief Saeed Salahuddin and some *** based Hurriyat leaders are also likely to give tele-addresses.

As a standard rule, no meeting espousing a secessionist cause is allowed under the law. So the state police is authorised to make preventive arrests.

Srinagar: Controversial seminar organiser arrested

well done J&K police
JAI HIND


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## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> depends who you ask......indians were saying that they drowned. That claim was later rubbished after autopsy was carried out
> 
> now there are people 13 people  including six doctors  for "destroying evidence and creating disturbances" in the state by claiming that the women were raped and murdered by security personnel
> 
> massive coverup, and the families of the girls got no justice
> 
> this is the reason why many Kashmiris resort to bearing arms and openly fighting the indian presence in their lands




ok let us assume that they were raped..[even though a CBI enquiry found out the opposite]...wat is the guarentee that they were raped oly by the security forces..?are there any eye witness.?
Cant any other Kashmiri youth done that and put the spread rumour to put the blame on the security forced so that he can escape..?


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## mr42O

Kashmir belongs to Pakistan and we will take it back and Indians know that . Thats why they have not managed to held election so Kashmiri ppl can chose as Pakistan and India agreed about in UN.


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## EjazR

*Police arrest rights activist in Kashmir - Arab News*

SRINAGAR: Police on Wednesday arrested a rights activist for inviting Pakistan-based leaders of insurgent groups to address by telephone a conference in the Indian portion of Kashmir.

*The insurgent leaders invited to speak were Hafiz Muhammad Saeed, a founder of the banned Lashkar-e-Taiba group, whom India accuses of masterminding the 2008 commando-style assault in Mumbai that killed 166 people, and Syed Salahuddin, chairman of an umbrella group United Jihad Council.*

Police raided the conference hall in a Srinagar hotel an hour before it was to begin and arrested Ahsan Untoo, chairman of Human Rights Forum Jammu-Kashmir, said Farooq Ahmed, a top police officer.

Srinagar is the main city in the Indian portion of Kashmir.

Ahmed said Untoo was arrested for supporting and promoting the ideology of insurgent leader Saeed. &#8220;It's unacceptable,&#8221; he said.

Police also detained four others including Javaid Ahmed Mir, a senior separatist leader.

Untoo said the police action violated his right of freedom of expression as he had organized the conference to discuss unity among separatist groups.

&#8220;They (Saeed and Salahuddin) were not the only people to speak, but guests included top human rights defenders and separatist leaders from our side of Kashmir as well,&#8221; Untoo told reporters as the police took him away.

-------------------------------
A "human rights seminar" with key note address from Hafiz Saeed and Syed Salahuddin the head of UJC, Jaish-e-Mohammad chief Masood Azhar the same person suspected of being involved in the killing of Daniel Pearl and surprise surprise Hamid Gul! 
That's like Hakimullah Mehsud giving a speech on a human rights seminar in Lahore. 

It is easy to note that at many times mass rallies have been organized by Mirwaiz and other separatist leaders and not stopped from doing so.

Interestingly


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## flanker30

mr42O said:


> Kashmir belongs to Pakistan and we will take it back and Indians know that . Thats why they have not managed to held election so Kashmiri ppl can chose as Pakistan and India agreed about in UN.



whole pakistan belongs to india,but we don't want that and kashmir will not move,it's ur wish to understand this or not

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## BJlaowai

TheBraveHeart said:


> Dude, u need to know first whats normal in pakistan rather than what is normal in India...*better check out the separatist movement in baluchistan,bangladesh *and even pakistan occupied kashmir and how they are/were suppressed.....



Add Lal Masjid to that list. 
That was for a few square meter so of encroached land. J&K is millions of times bigger.


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## EjazR

*APHC (M) leader for Joint management of Kashmir*

SRINAGAR, APR 14 : Prof Abdul Gani Bhat, senior leader of Hurriyat Conference (M), today said he will be soon coming up with a new document for the settlement of Kashmir issue.

Speaking to Kashmir Times, Bhat said, "I have prepared a new Document - Self Governance - and I will present it to the Kashmiris,
Pakistan and India once the things calm down.&#8221;

Stating that his "self governance" document can help a long way in the settlement of the issue the Hurriyat (M) leader said, "I have framed the document in such a judicious way that it may help in resolving the long pending issue if implemented.&#8221;

Explaining the document to Kashmir Times, he said, *"The document stands on four points which include complete demilitarisation of the
state, opening of all the roads linking Kashmir to Pakistan , joint management and irrelevant borders.&#8221;*

The Hurriyat (M) leader viewed that the demilitarisation will ensure a sense of security among the masses after which all the roads should be thrown open.

"The opening of the roads will help boost the trade between the two countries leading to the economic development of not only India and
Pakistan but of the entire South Asia," he said.

Demilitarisation and opening of roads, Bhat said should be followed by declaring the Line of Control (LoC) as irrelevant.

"The mountaineous terrain between India and Pakistan should not be called (LoC) or international border but should be of no relevance which will ensure good relationship between the two countries," he said.

The Hurriyat (M) leader said the declaration of the irrelevance of borders should be followed by the joint management. "The joint management which should comprise of the members from India , Pakistan and both sides of Kashmir will jointly solve the common issues like tourism, water, power etc," he added.

*On comparing his document with that of PDP&#8217;s "self rule" in terms of the similarity in demands, Bhat said, "There may be some similar
demands in PDP&#8217;s self rule and my self governance, but the two are not similar in totality. The biggest difference is that self rule has
been framed within the ambit of Indian constitution which is not the case with mine," Bhat stated.*

However, he was quick to add that he will support Mufti Mohammad Sayeed PDP patron where his views are similar to him. Stating that all the three parties India, Pakistan and Kashmir have to offer sacrifices for the settlement of the dispute, Bhat said, "Any issue is resolved only through the dialogue but on the negotiation table all those involved in the process have to avoid being rigid. They have to be ready to offer sacrifice one way or the other. If all the three parties will remain tough on their stand then nothing will come out because to gain something you need to sacrifice something.&#8221;


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## Avatar

mr42O said:


> Kashmir belongs to Pakistan and we will take it back and* Indians know that* . Thats why they have not managed to held election so Kashmiri ppl can chose as Pakistan and India agreed about in UN.



It was Pakistan who did not let the UN election happen and it was Pakistan who invaded Kashmir. 

The bold part was quite a revelation. Some Indians are not even aware that 1/3 of Kashmir is occupied by Pakistan

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## makikirkiri

the only reason for that plebiscite not having taken place is your country.
Some pakistanis are so enthusiastic in spreading lies and throwing warnings in a forum.If you guys really have that big balls why not go and take what you deem as yours.By telling the same lie a hundred times and opening 1000 threads you can't make a lie truth.
Peace


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## naved_kam

FireFighter said:


> Public rallies, protests, free speech and democratic values, should all be abolished and banned in Kashmir. No plebiscite, no voting, no dissent and other anti-India and pro-liberation should be tolerated in Kashmir.
> 
> Afterall, these piss poor kashmirs are a national threat to India. You kno' they been waging war and been invading India since partition with ak47s and sticks n stones. They been behind all sorts of political and economical and social collapses and turmoils in India. they're the biggest threat to India's soverignity and want to some day capture and rule India. 700k pansy soldiers are clearly not enough, I'd say move in a few million soldiers and kill em all kashmiris at once, and replace 'em with the Hindu's and Dalits and the progeny of Hari Singh, the imperialists imposter; the rightful owners of Kashmir.



Do not start quoting the plight of Kashmiris to futher Pakistan's nefarious agendas. The soldiers that you all "Pansy" are not bombing their own countrymen from several thousand feet in the air or shelling their homes from several kilometers away. They have the balls to be on the ground and carry out neutralizing operations against your cronies to ensure that normal citizens do not suffer from the operations. So better think twice before you call Indian soldiers and security forces Pansy while your soldiers are epitomes of recklessness and cowardice.

To the topic now:

It is extremely important for the J&K police to ensure that such Pakistan funded henchmen are not allowed to disrupt normal life anymore than they have already done.

If this "Human rights activist" has any gall worth the cause that he fakes to espouse then he should take up the matter when these terrorists are killing innocent babies by shooting them in the head or raping Kashimiri women mercilessly. No one has hurt the lives of innocent Kashmiris more than your Army and ISI who think of themselves as great strategists while sending your trained illiterate killing hands to India to murder innocent people and disrupt normal public life. The only thing between the reign of terror that you want to impose and the hope of normal life for the Kashmiris is the J&K police and Indian security forces. 

Otherwise, you would have turned that beautiful place also in to another Kandhar or Kabul of the Taliban era. 

I will not even compare anything happening in Kashmir with what you are doing to similiar people in your tribal areas. You bomb them impertinently from Jets!!!!!!!! There is not a single iota of human consideration in your war plans. The number of murders that you allow your forces to get away with in the garb of "collateral damage" will probably have no parrellel in human history.

No Sir, we will ensure that your designs for Kashmir will never be successful. We will put feet on the ground and arrest such people irrespective of the risk to the Indian security forces because it is neither our overt or covert plan to absorb / allow civilian deaths as collateral damage. No matter what it takes. But of course, that should be evident to each and every of your wargames generals by now.

If the police have arrested this dumbhead, there must be relevant laws under which to execute the arrest. He should be given a fair trial and put through the justice system to ensure that truth and law prevails.


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## naved_kam

mr42O said:


> Kashmir belongs to Pakistan and we will take it back and Indians know that . Thats why they have not managed to held election so Kashmiri ppl can chose as Pakistan and India agreed about in UN.



That is something that only you have been taught by your favorite uncle Zia along with other information such as Pakistanis did not do any atrocities in Bangladesh & India is the poorest nation in the world while Pakistan is doing very well & "Aurangzeb was a peace loving ruler whose favorite past time was weaving" (could not even get an original past time and had to pick it away from our old man = M.K Gandhi). 

The rest of the world reads a different history and knows that India holds regular elections in all our states and in fact in the last Assembly and Parliamentary elections in J&K the turnout was so high that the separatists & their controllers in your GHQ were completely baffled. We know that truth when newly revealed takes some time to settle in like a lot of other truths are settling in about your education system. You will come around to understand this one too.

But all in good time....... we have lots of it.... how much do you have?

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## yashchauhan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> yes suppressing free speech and arresting people who havent committed a crime is very democratic behaviour
> 
> ''good job'' indeed



India has death penalty in place for the ones who try to against the state and speech of hatred is intolerable specially in such sensitive regions!


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## Kinetic

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> *Wednesday, 21 April 2010
> Jumadi-ul-Awwal 06, 1431 *
> 
> 
> 
> DAWN.COM | World | Indian police arrest human rights leader in Srinagar



Arrested yes but not any 'human rights' activists. Its govt of J/K's duty to crash illegal meetings. There are more human rights in India than any other country specially in Asia. 

You are allowed to speak against India when living in India, example hurriyat conference. If they were in any other country, all of them already had been vanished by the military.


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## Kinetic

mr42O said:


> Kashmir belongs to Pakistan and we will take it back and Indians know that . Thats why they have not managed to held election so Kashmiri ppl can chose as Pakistan and India agreed about in UN.



There is no way Kashmir belongs to Pakistan. Kashirmis are Indians for last 6000 years, check the history of Kashmir. If you say thet they are being Muslims than India never accepted religious based partition of India and most of the Muslims of Indian sub-continent live out side Pakistan.


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## AyanRay

> depends who you ask......indians were saying that they drowned. That claim was later rubbished after autopsy was carried out


Autopsy was carried out by whom? Who made the report public? Indians, right?
I remember a story of another Kashmiri girl, dont remember her name, who single handedly had made two terrorists run for there life. She is now working with with J&K police department


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## ek_indian

Unnecessary chest thumping by Pakistani friends. 

The so-called HR activist was caught by JnK police which is infact, full of local people only. So no point in playing opression-opression game!!

The activist should consider themselves fortunate to be in India. Had it not been a democracy, all would be gone prior to meeting even and no news would be in media.


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## Mirza Jatt

Today Kashmiris are working in Indian police,Indian army,they have spread in other parts of in India working as doctors,journalists,etc and serving the country..why because thats where they belong...India.These seperatists are not stopped from doing their work,until they cross their limit and starts rallies which are adressed by militants.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

ek_indian said:


> Unnecessary chest thumping by Pakistani friends.
> 
> The so-called HR activist was caught by JnK police which is infact, full of local people only. So no point in playing opression-opression game!!
> 
> The activist should consider themselves fortunate to be in India. Had it not been a democracy, all would be gone prior to meeting even and no news would be in media.



they aren't in india....they are in Kashmir. 


you can call other Pakistanis on here your friend. Don't include me on that list please, i don't even know you. 


yes I know there is ''freedom of speech'' in hindstan. Especially when it encompasses anti-Islam anti-Pakistan rhetoric.


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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> they aren't in india....they are in Kashmir.
> 
> 
> you can call other Pakistanis on here your friend. Don't include me on that list please, i don't even know you.
> 
> 
> yes I know there is ''freedom of speech'' in hindstan. Especially when it encompasses anti-Islam anti-Pakistan rhetoric.



And Jammu & Kashmir is in India and inshah allah will stay there forever...


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## raw@war

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Pakistani/Kashmiris are not under constant curfews; not being strip-searched on daily basis for no reason.



Because we don't believe in CROSS BORDER TERRORISM.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

karan.1970 said:


> And Jammu & Kashmir is in India



yeah, on paper maybe 

i'm not denying that there are pro-india elements in Kashmir though.

a lot of them have been 'imported'  





> and inshah allah will stay there forever...



and the struggle continues. 

you have the watch.

Kashmiris have the time


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## hillman32

Dr.Evil said:


> You seem to have wokenup too late. This ban was lifted within 24Hrs.
> We still seem to be arguing on this even when there is no ban.





That is what I said.

How come, Indian government who is so nice and motherly with Kashmiris can ban this facility...............................


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## FireFighter

Azad Kashmir said:


> LOL, at you Indians. What have you been smoking? The part of Kashmir India owns is occupied. In which part of Kashmir is there a resistance movement? In which part of Kashmir are there mass protests against Indian rule? In which part of Kashmir do most of the parties want to seccede? Answer: 'Indian' Kashmir



The most logical explanation about the presence of 700,000 Indian soldiers in Indian occupied Kashmir you'll ever get from Indians is that....well they're protecting the Kashmiri people from extremists militant, whilst the govn't is busy banning services and basic rights and priviledges LOL


they should also ban schooling, text books and education as well.


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## IBRIS

Creder said:


> yeh dude why should 40,000 dead bodies make any difference to you...and you speak too soon about the future, only time will tell



So, what is the body count of kashmiri's who were the victims of cross border infiltrators terrorist bombings all in and around kashmir. "TALEE EK HAATH NAA NAYI WAJDEE".


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## intelarpit

FireFighter said:


> The most logical explanation about the presence of 700,000 Indian soldiers in Indian occupied Kashmir you'll ever get from Indians is that....well they're protecting the Kashmiri people from extremists militant, whilst the govn't is busy banning services and basic rights and priviledges LOL
> 
> 
> they should also ban schooling, text books and education as well.



I can give you a better explanation

We have Pakistan at LoC and they can play mischief(like kargil).....to kick them we have 700000 soldiers and we are planning to raise these number to 100000....moreover we have some 100000 BSF guys also there


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## gubbi

FireFighter said:


> they should also ban schooling, text books and education as well.


Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir is NOT Waziristan or NWFP where Taliban bans such things left and right, while the legitimate Pak govt. either enters into an agreement with the extremists or watches from the sidelines while their authority is blatantly trampled upon by the Taliban.

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## RT2010

I think Kashmir belongs to Kashmiri people only. China, India, and Pakistan should get out of Kashmir right away.


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## zulfiqar74

well by looking at the indian soldiers one can gather how ill equipt and under train these people are, using a state of the art weapon does not make one a good soldier, our local cops are better equipt then these guys,


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## jha

^^^ good for you...

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## flanker30

zulfiqar74 said:


> well by looking at the indian soldiers one can gather how ill equipt and under train these people are, using a state of the art weapon does not make one a good soldier, our local cops are better equipt then these guys,



enough 4 the terrorists


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## Napalm

TAR 21:

















fitting reply with tar21


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## KillBill

RT2010 said:


> I think Kashmir belongs to Kashmiri people only. China, India, and Pakistan should get out of Kashmir right away.



Yes, show us the way and lead the group by vacating your part first. Thanks in advance

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## EjazR

*Kashmir solution just a signature away: Kasuri*

_Says previous govt had completed 90 pc spadework on dispute; we agreed on a point between complete independence and autonomy_

By Babar Dogar & Ranjan Roy

*LAHORE: Former foreign minister Khursheed Mehmood Kasuri has said the solution to the Kashmir dispute is just a signature away once India and Pakistan decide to pull the file from the rack.*

While addressing the concluding session of the two-day seminar  held as part of the ongoing Aman ki Asha campaign, launched by the Jang Group and Times of India  and later talking to The News and the Times of India here on Friday, the former foreign minister revealed the previous Musharraf government had completed almost 90 per cent of the spadework on the half-a-century old Kashmir dispute by 2007 as the whole exercise just needed the formal signature of all the three parties to the issue - Pakistan, India and representatives of Kashmir.

All India and Pakistan now need is to defreeze the process. The entire paper-work has been done. The copies of related documents are safe with some friendly countries as well, said Kasuri.

Kasuri said that negotiators from Islamabad and New Delhi had quietly toiled away for three years, talking to each other and Kashmiri representatives from the Indian side as well as Kashmiris settled overseas to reach what *he described as the only possible solution to the Kashmir issue*.

He said the two sides had agreed to full demilitarisation of both Indian Kashmir as well as Azad Kashmir. In addition, a package of loose autonomy that stopped short of the azadi and self-governance aspirations, had been agreed on and was to be introduced on both sides of the disputed frontier.* ``We agreed on a point between complete independence and autonomy, he said.*
*
He said that hardliner Sayeed Ali Shah Gilani was the only Kashmiri leader who refused to come on board. ``He would accept nothing but merger with Pakistan, which ironically is something we too wanted but knew wasnt practical*. I once had a seven-to-eight hour meeting with him and even Musharraf met him but he refused to budge, Kasuri said. He refused to give details of the stance other moderate Kashmiri leaders adopted.

He said the former government had finalised the formula of giving independence to the Kashmiris like the one they had before the dispute surfaced in 1948. When Pakistan and India decided to engage the Kashmiri leadership, it made it clear the people of Kashmir would not settle for anything less than the kind of independence they had during the tenure of the maharaja before the partition. However, with the scenario changed altogether, and Pakistan and India having strategic compulsions against such an independence, the issue had to be worked out again on different lines.

``Well, India and Pakistan had serious reservations over that kind of independence. So, it was decided let the Kashmiris have their homeland as desired by them, and Pakistan and India should roll a plan for gradual evacuation of the strategically important parts of the united Kashmir, the former foreign minister informed.

It was also decided both the countries would gradually withdraw their forces from Indian and Pakistani held territories of Kashmir. We decided a nominal chunk of forces would be kept back in the strategically important areas of liberated Kashmir for sometime, he added.

Furthermore, Kasuri went on to say, *Indian and Pakistani governments decided not to sell victories in their respective countries for avoiding a general public backlash in the other*. `It was a dicey situation in terms of political fallout of any solution back home in both the countries. If that exercise had to materialize, both the countries needed to tell their respective masses what actually had been done for breaking the status quo, Khursheed Kasuri said. He maintained it was very hard for making the public accept the achieved results either. So, at one point in time, it was decided to make the Line of Control (LoC) `irrelevant so that the Kashmiris could be allowed to move freely across the Valley, using their ID cards.

He said: The two nuclear neighbours were quite worried about the volatile situation in the region, especially around the LoC. There were insurgencies in both the countries. The freedom struggle in Indian-held Kashmir and the growing menace of terrorism in Pakistan were becoming a cause of serious concern for the two governments by the end of 2005. The Mumbai attack worked as a catalyst for finding an immediate solution to all issues, which had the potential of sparking a full-fledged armed conflict in the subcontinent. Kasuri further explained both the countries just couldnt afford any Mumbai-like attack in India as it would force them to retaliate at all costs.

*He said the three-year long arduous efforts were rendered fruitless by the sudden emergence of the judiciary-executive row in 2006, which forced the Musharraf regime to put the matter on the backburner for the time being. Kasuri further revealed former president Pervez Musharraf had a possible signal from the Manmohan Singh government in early 2006 vis-a-vis formalizing the almost reached solution in August 2006. Or, if delay was inevitable, the announcement to this effect could be made by March 2007. However, Kasuri added, he suggested President Musharraf to hold the process back for a while as the political situation in Pakistan was not conducive for unveiling such a big plan, which had the popular sentiments involved to a great extent.* As the media, the opposition, the people, especially the civil society and the lawyer community, resorted to opening afterburners against the former president in the aftermath of the judicial crisis, any initiative, however sincere and productive, by the government would be eyed with suspicion.

He said to soften public opinion before making this breakthrough public, India and Pakistan decided to resolve the Sir Creek issue. Indian PM Manmohan Singh was scheduled to come to Pakistan in 2006 for signing the settlement of the Sir Creek issue. However, the Indian government postponed the meeting in view of general elections in India the same year. The Sir Creek matter was put ahead of the already agreed agenda on Kashmir with the purpose to give more credibility to Indo-Pak endeavors. ``There was a usual perception that Pakistan and India just couldnt resolve any mutual dispute through bilateral engagements, said the former foreign minister.

By that time, Pakistan and India had already held over 15 informal meetings for chalking out a feasible plan to settle the dispute. In the latter part of the deliberations, both the countries realised the need for involving the crucial party to the conflict, the Kashmiris, in the ongoing negotiations. Apart from Indo-Pak meetings during the process, India and Pakistan held talks at various levels with the Kashmiri leadership. ``I had held covert meetings with the Kashmiri leadership even in other countries, Kasuri added. Meanwhile, a senior Indian official involved in the backdoor talks corroborated the statement of the former foreign minister.

Kasuri was all praise for the Jang Group of Publications and the Times of India Group. He said only the media had the guts and the credibility to take such an initiative of warming the process again, which was a whisker away from glory. ``The media can make the difference at this point in time. If more credible media groups joined the cause, wonders could be done in near future. I hope these two media giants kept the momentum up for sometime till the respective audience realised the significance of peace in the region. Kasuri stressed the need for frequent media people movement across the border, which, he believed, would go miles in propelling this vital campaign.


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## karan.1970

*2 MoRE*

Two Hizbul militants killed in Jammu-Kashmir gunfight - India - The Times of India

JAMMU: Two militants of the Hizbul Mujaheedin were killed in a gunfight in Jammu and Kashmir's Doda district, police said on Saturday. 

"One militant was killed last (Friday) night while the other early Saturday morning," Doda Senior Superintendent of Police (SSP) Prabhat Singh said. 

He said the security forces comprising police and the Indian Army laid cordon around the mountainous forest in Gandoh, about 180 km north-east of Jammu, Friday night following information about presence of a group of militants there. 

The gunfight began late Friday evening after the contact with militants was established. 

"Tanvir Ahmad, one of the killed militants, was the area commander of Hizbul while the other Zubair Ahmad was his close associate. The security forces recovered both the bodies today (Saturday) morning," Singh said.


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## Mirza Jatt

Great news..god to see the local police getting more and more envolved in these operations...


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## Prometheus

karan.1970 said:


> *2 MoRE*
> 
> Two Hizbul militants killed in Jammu-Kashmir gunfight - India - The Times of India
> 
> JAMMU: Two militants of the Hizbul Mujaheedin were killed in a gunfight in Jammu and Kashmir's Doda district, police said on Saturday.
> 
> "One militant was killed last (Friday) night while the other early Saturday morning," Doda Senior Superintendent of Police (SSP) Prabhat Singh said.
> 
> He said the security forces comprising police and the Indian Army laid cordon around the mountainous forest in Gandoh, about 180 km north-east of Jammu, Friday night following information about presence of a group of militants there.
> 
> The gunfight began late Friday evening after the contact with militants was established.
> 
> "Tanvir Ahmad, one of the killed militants, was the area commander of Hizbul while the other Zubair Ahmad was his close associate. The security forces recovered both the bodies today (Saturday) morning," Singh said.



sudden rise in encounters???

Infiltration must be on high


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## FireFighter

gubbi said:


> Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir is NOT Waziristan or NWFP where Taliban bans such things left and right, while the legitimate Pak govt. either enters into an agreement with the extremists or watches from the sidelines while their authority is blatantly trampled upon by the Taliban.



If these things are true by your own account then whats the difference between Taliban and the Indian Govn't? 

They both ban instruments of freedom such as cell phone usage and computers. They both ban education except their state sponsored version that adheres to their ideology. 

So whats the difference?


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## karan.1970

summers coming up... Or may be Security forces getting more active


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## Prometheus

karan.1970 said:


> summers coming up... Or may be Security forces getting more active



or both of these things


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## Abhiras

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> a lot of them have been 'imported'



What imported ??

have you heard of indian Article 370 ????


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## ramu

RT2010 said:


> I think Kashmir belongs to Kashmiri people only. China, India, and Pakistan should get out of Kashmir right away.



What about Tibet ? Does it not belong to the people of Tibet ?

This is a little off topic but is a clear indication that a super power like China has crushed the will of Tibet or any form of autonomy let alone freedom.

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## James007

ramu said:


> What about Tibet ? Does it not belong to the people of Tibet ?
> 
> This is a little off topic but is a clear indication that a super power like China has crushed the will of Tibet or any form of autonomy let alone freedom.



i think human beings are not treated equally,


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## DMLA

Nice mini-doc on current ops!

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## Evil Flare

ISLAMABAD: The authorities in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) have directed the cable operators of Jammu district to stop telecast of 12 channels within two days, 11 of which are being broadcast from Pakistan and one from Dubai.

According to a report issued by the Kashmir Media Service, a notice had already been issued to multi-system cable operators to stop the broadcast of 12 channels. app


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## Hyde

No as per Indian members there is no demand of Pakistani channels in India so they shouldn't be allowed 

It is only Pakistanis who are crazy after Indian channels


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## DESERT FIGHTER

for much for FREEDOM in OCCUPIED KASHMIR.


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## Omar1984

*Thousands protest against killing in Kashmir*



Indian policemen scuffle with activists during a demonstration in Srinagar, India - Photo by AP 


SRINAGAR: Thousands of villagers, angry over the fatal shooting of a civilian, rallied in the Indian-administered Kashmir on Saturday, burning two army vehicles, officials said. 

The protest was sparked by the shooting death of a civilian early Saturday, and wounding of another, who trotted on horseback into an ambush the army had laid for suspected rebels in Kellar, a village about 35 miles (60 kilometers) south of Indian-administered Kashmir's main city Srinagar, said Shahid Mairaj, the area police chief.

The soldiers fired at the two men after they ignored warnings and tried to run away, Mairaj told The Associated Press.

"It was an accident," Mairaj said, but added that the army violated standard procedure by not informing local police about the ambush.

In the Saturday protest, thousands of villagers threw rocks and set two vehicles on fire, Mairaj said. Three civilians were injured in the clashes. Soldiers fired warning shots in the air to disperse the protesters who also raised posters with anti-India slogans, he said.

Mohammed Maqbool, a local resident, alleged that the soldiers fired into the protesters, wounding his son and many others. Riaz Ahmed, a doctor at a Srinagar hospital said two people were treated for bullet wounds.

According to an army statement, &#8220;A high-level inquiry has been ordered to investigate the incident.&#8221; It also said that troops exercised restraint.

Anti-India sentiment runs deep in Indian-administered Kashmir and government forces repeatedly have been accused of targeting civilians during their drive against nearly a dozen rebel groups fighting since 1989 for independence from India, or unification with Pakistan.

Skirmishes between Kashmiris and security forces are common. On April 15, villagers protested the killing of a 70-year-old civilian allegedly by the army in Indian-administered Kashmir.

More than 68,000 people, most of them civilians, have been killed in the uprising and subsequent Indian crackdown.


DAWN.COM | World | Thousands protest against killing in Kashmir

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## Omar1984

*Two army vehicles torched in Kashmir*

Shopian (Jammu and Kashmir), Apr 25 (ANI): Angry protesters at Keller area of Shopian District in Jammu and Kashmir have torched two army vehicles after a person was killed during an encounter with security forces.

The incident took place on Saturday morning.

Troops had laid a cordon at Chewan Keller village after receiving information about movement of militants.

*"At 4.15 in the morning three people walked into a cordon. When they were challenged by the security forces they began to run, as a result soldiers fired on them. In the firing, a person was killed, another was injured and third person was apprehended," said Lieutenant Colonel J S Brar, a Defence spokesperson.*

As the news of the death spread scores of villagers came out to protest.

"As the day broke out scores of civilians gathered and they started stone pelting at security personnel. The commanding officer of the Rashtriya Rifles, District Superintendent of Police and Commissioner tried to pacify the crowd during the stone pelting. Two vehicles of army, one of which was caught in slush, was torched by civilians illegally," Lt Col Brar added. (ANI)

Two army vehicles torched in Kashmir - Oneindia News

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## Xtremeownage

Ina Lillahi Wa Ina Lillah!

Indian tyranny will soon come to an end, Insha Allah!

Kashmir is a part of Pakistan, and the 2/5 of Kashmir that has been illegally occupied by the Indians must be handed over to Pakistan, as it is a part of this Pak sar zameen!

May God help Pakistan, our brothers/sisters in Indian occupied Kashmir, and all the Muslims. Ameen!

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## indian_warrior

Kill all the terrorist. Good job JK police


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## FreekiN

indian_warrior said:


> Kill all the terrorist. Good job JK police



Everyone who opposes Indian occupation is a terrorist.

Nice logic.


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## Prometheus

FreekiN said:


> Everyone who opposes Indian occupation is a terrorist.
> 
> Nice logic.



you never go against the family.

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## EjazR

This is the actual incident. It was a case of mistaken identity and definitely wrong. The affected families must be compensated and apologized too. In COIN operations collateral damages do happen but minimizing it and having a zero tolerance policy for deliberate HR violations should be maintained.

Let me add as a reminder that out of the 50,000+ people killed in the conflict. More than 15000 Kashmiri Muslims were killed by militants alone. On top of the 1000+ non-Muslim civilians killed by them

*Another mistaken identity: Army probes Shopian killing*

The Army has ordered a high-level inquiry into the killing of a 32-year-old man in Kellar Shopian which triggered off protests in the area in which three people were injured.

Locals said in the early hours of Saturday an ambush party of the Army fired on three timber smugglers at Chawan Shopian mistaking them for militants. &#8220;The three persons were fired at by the Army when they were moving in the area. One villager died on the spot, while two others sustained bullet injuries in the shootout. Two horses with them also got killed in the firing,&#8221; Showket Ahmad, a villager told The Sunday Express over phone.

The dead civilian has been identified as Gul Mohammad Kalas. As the news of Kalas&#8217;s killing spread in the village, dozens of villagers assembled there and started raising pro freedom slogans and torched two Army vehicles. The jawans opened fire on the mob injuring three civilians. 

Deputy Commissioner Shopian Abdul Majid Khanday termed the killing unfortunate and a case of mistaken identity. &#8220;The Army has already agreed that the civilian who was a timber smuggler was killed in case of a mistaken identity. *The villagers got pacified when the Army admitted that it was a case of mistaken identity. The body has also been buried by the villagers.&#8221;*

*He said a case had been registered against the Army personnel. &#8220;Since the Army has already accepted it as a case of a mistaken identity, there was no need to hold any further inquiry,&#8221; he said.*

Defence spokesman Lt Col J S Brar said on intelligence inputs from police, an operation was launched in Chawan, Abhom in Shopian on the night of April 23 and a cordon was established on the outskirts of the village where suspected militants were likely to come. &#8220;At 4 am, three persons walked into the cordon from outside the village. On being challenged, they started running, prompting the jawans to open fire in which one person was killed, another injured and the third one was handed over to the police.&#8221;

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

EjazR said:


> The affected families must be compensated and apologized too.


The affected families in Kashmir, and all others, should be compensated by an end to Indian occupation and subjugation of Kashmir, by being allowed to exercise their right of self-determination.


> In COIN operations collateral damages do happen but minimizing it and having a zero tolerance policy for deliberate HR violations should be maintained.


These are not COIN operations, they are operations to enforce occupation and subjugation, and thousands killed by Indian security forces were innocents tortured and massacred in pursuit of the subduing of the people of Kashmir, and not just 'accidental collateral damage'.

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## Shamsher

wow they are trying so hard


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

What do you expect form a country that feeds its populace hatred laced propaganda about Pakistan 24/7?

The issue is not 'demand' for Pakistani channels, it is the fact that they only want their own distorted narrative to have primacy - you all know this, the majority of new Indian posters on this forum have over the years displayed a shocking understanding of Pakistan and the level of its development.

Go to the major Indian newspapers such as ToI and HT, and their sections on Pakistan are chock full of negative news alone. This is all part of a well thought out strategy by the GoI to brainwash its populace and inculcate hatred for Pakistan in it.

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## Prometheus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> What do you expect form a country that feeds its populace hatred laced propaganda about Pakistan 24/7?
> 
> The issue is not 'demand' for Pakistani channels, it is the fact that they only want their own distorted narrative to have primacy - you all know this, the majority of new Indian posters on this forum have over the years displayed a shocking understanding of Pakistan and the level of its development.
> 
> Go to the major Indian newspapers such as ToI and HT, and their sections on Pakistan are chock full of negative news alone. This is all part of a well thought out strategy by the GoI to brainwash its populace and inculcate hatred for Pakistan in it.



kashmir media service reported this news................we all know how good they are in reporting.

Confirm the news first from another source too............Plz then only start blaming India and Indians .Thanks

and every state of India has his or her main newspaper...........as Indian Punjab got The Tribune and Ajit.

arre bhai ......tum bhi nah


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Prometheus said:


> kashmir media service reported this news................we all know how good they are in reporting.
> 
> Confirm the news first from another source too............Plz then only start blaming India and Indians .Thanks
> 
> and every state of India has his or her main newspaper...........as Indian Punjab got The Tribune and Ajit.
> 
> arre bhai ......tum bhi nah



Whether this particular story is correct or not has little to do with my larger point.

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## Prometheus

wait a minute.................isnt Pakistani Channels already banned in India????

why banning the banned ones again?


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## Prometheus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Whether this particular story is correct or not has little to do with my larger point.



oh janab ji.........in my whole school life I read a small paragraph about Pakistan.............that included its geographic location and years of wars we fought...............nothing else.

what do you want to say bro................we all ( including you) know how good shows are on Pakistani news channels (well I really liked najam sethi...........that guy talk sense)

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Prometheus said:


> oh janab ji.........in my whole school life I read a small paragraph about Pakistan.............that included its geographic location and years of wars we fought...............nothing else.
> 
> what do you want to say bro................we all ( including you) know how good shows are on Pakistani news channels (well I really liked najam sethi...........that guy talk sense)



Textbooks have a lower impact than the media and the narratives in popular culture do.

I studied in a Pakistani school system as well, yet I cannot recall much of the 'anti-Hindu & anti-Indian' brainwashing Indians, and even some Pakistani academics, say is prevalent.

The only part that I do recall has to do with the wars and Kashmir, which it is not really possible to discuss without mentioning the opposing side.

---------- Post added at 01:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 AM ----------




Prometheus said:


> wait a minute.................isnt Pakistani Channels already banned in India????
> 
> why banning the banned ones again?



This story would suggest they are being banned in J&K, not in India ...


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## duhastmish

*good now they must ban all the indian channels too. 

the local channels of both the country are garbage and propaganda makers.*


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## Prometheus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Textbooks have a lower impact than the media and the narratives in popular culture do.
> 
> I studied in a Pakistani school system as well, yet I cannot recall much of the 'anti-Hindu & anti-Indian' brainwashing Indians, and even some Pakistani academics, say is prevalent.
> 
> The only part that I do recall has to do with the wars and Kashmir, which it is not really possible to discuss without mentioning the opposing side.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> This story would suggest they are being banned in J&K, not in India ...



........oh yaar..........we again came to level of mera kashmir tera kashmir

No Indian state has autonomy to go against parliament......if central govt. banned it...............banned in whole area which is India

Hmmmmm........i do recall my grandpa tuning to watch PTV about a decade ago.........


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## James007

wats wrong if they are banned,jammu is a part of india and channels are banned in whole india.why r u worried if it is in jammu


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## truefriend

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> j&K is the part of india...


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## NAVY SEAL

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> What do you expect form a country that feeds its populace hatred laced propaganda about Pakistan 24/7?
> 
> The issue is not 'demand' for Pakistani channels, it is the fact that they only want their own distorted narrative to have primacy - you all know this, the majority of new Indian posters on this forum have over the years displayed a shocking understanding of Pakistan and the level of its development.
> 
> Go to the major Indian newspapers such as ToI and HT, and their sections on Pakistan are chock full of negative news alone. This is all part of a well thought out strategy by the GoI to brainwash its populace and inculcate hatred for Pakistan in it.



SIR YOU R HALF RIGHT AND HALF WRONG THOUGH YOU R RIGHT IN WAY THAT IN INDIAN PAPERS MOSTILY NEGATIVE ABOUT PAKISTAN PRINTED but wrong in a way that its a propaganda by GOI.HT and TOI r independent newspaper AND why they print mostly negative coz (this is just my POV) that always highligted, agressive,breaking thing comes into news (like taliban,suicide,bomb blast) never the news come of little development of state,town,city.and sir forget toi and ht ,what about ur own newspaper they mostly print negative about zardari,politicians,political system,and your own govt.though ther r doing fine as per conditions


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## thebrownguy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> What do you expect form a country that feeds its populace hatred laced propaganda about Pakistan 24/7?
> 
> The issue is not 'demand' for Pakistani channels, it is the fact that they only want their own distorted narrative to have primacy - you all know this, the majority of new Indian posters on this forum have over the years displayed a shocking understanding of Pakistan and the level of its development.
> 
> Go to the major Indian newspapers such as ToI and HT, and their sections on Pakistan are chock full of negative news alone. This is all part of a well thought out strategy by the GoI to brainwash its populace and inculcate hatred for Pakistan in it.



Well, don't you think its the other way round. Lol, you guy study twisted historic facts even in your text books. We never studied about Kashmir dispute in detail in our text books.

The Pakistani media, the mainstream media talks about nuking banglore, spins stupid conspiracy theories 24/7. The likes of ZH and Ahmad Quairaishi are examples. Most Pakistanis hail the nuclear bomb as the biggest achievement of the country till date.
Talk about programmed to hate!!

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## MZUBAIR

James007 said:


> wats wrong if they are banned,jammu is a part of india and channels are banned in whole india.why r u worried if it is in jammu



Jammu and Kashmir is not the part of Inida.....
Its a dispute part....
Amazing people are so unaware abt J&K ......


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## thebrownguy

MZUBAIR said:


> Jammu and Kashmir is not the part of Inida.....
> Its a dispute part....
> Amazing people are so unaware abt J&K ......



So whats your point? If it is disputed, why does the international community shy away from solving it?


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## prodevelopment

MZUBAIR said:


> Jammu and Kashmir is not the part of Inida.....
> Its a dispute part....
> Amazing people are so unaware abt J&K ......



P O K is also a disputed area. However, Indian constitution is applicable in J&K while the Pakistani constitution is applicable in P O K. 

Amazing how people are so naive to not comprehend that.....

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

prodevelopment said:


> while the Pakistani constitution is applicable in P O K. .....



Actually that is not the case. They have their own Institutions including the Courts, Prez, PM etc etc....................


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## ARCHON

atmi_chuza said:


> Actually that is not the case. They have their own Institutions including the Courts, Prez, PM etc etc....................



DAWN.COM | Editorial | Azad Kashmir today


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## Justin Joseph

Aamir Zia said:


> ISLAMABAD: The authorities in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) have directed the cable operators of Jammu district to stop telecast of 12 channels within two days, 11 of which are being broadcast from Pakistan and one from Dubai.
> 
> According to a report issued by the Kashmir Media Service, a notice had already been issued to multi-system cable operators to stop the broadcast of 12 channels. app





*This goes about proving that till date the Pakistani channels were allowed in India.*

So another Pakistani propaganda busted the we don't allow your channels.

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## EjazR

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The affected families in Kashmir, and all others, should be compensated by an end to Indian occupation and subjugation of Kashmir, by being allowed to exercise their right of self-determination.
> 
> These are not COIN operations, they are operations to enforce occupation and subjugation, and thousands killed by Indian security forces were innocents tortured and massacred in pursuit of the subduing of the people of Kashmir, and not just 'accidental collateral damage'.



Let me quote what a local villager said in the news report:



> Locals said in the early hours of Saturday an ambush party of the Army fired on three timber smugglers at Chawan Shopian mistaking them for militants. &#8220;The three persons were fired at by the Army when they were moving in the area. One villager died on the spot, while two others sustained bullet injuries in the shootout. Two horses with them also got killed in the firing,&#8221; Showket Ahmad, a villager told The Sunday Express over phone.


This clearly shows that these three people were involved in smuggling timber late at night. The Army was running patrols and would have challenged them thinking they might be militants and fired upon them. They were not protesting against "IA occupation" at midnight. This is not how subjugation of the masses is done.

This was a COIN related operation going on were safety patrols are dispatched during the night. I don't really want to bring Pakistan into this but just for comparison, PAF recently bombed using fighter jets and that resulted in 50+ civilian deaths in a single strike. AFAIK, IAF has never been deployed to "suppress the masses" or more accurately even against militants to keep the civilian casualties down.

Even before we talk about assessing what the people want to say, we have to demilitarize that area. We have to have a society that is not under siege and threat of militants striking out against anyone who opposes their ideology. The security forces can be removed only when militants stop coming across the border. 
Until beginning of this year army was gradually being withdrawn regularly for the last 4 years and almost 40,000 troops have been withdrawn and a similar number of para-military forces as well. But now this withdrawal has been halted thanks to a increase in militant infiltration.

In fact, you can check out what the locals are doing in this documentary video reported by Suhail Bukhari who is regularly reporting from various parts of J&K. Many local journalists have access to J&K to report on the situation there and there is vibrant local J&K media as well.
*Defending LoC documentary*l

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## EjazR

Well it looks that it was a fake media report. Most likely fabricated by separatists to rile up the locals.


*"No ban on any channel&#8221;*
Srinagar: Refuting the reports that government has banned airing of some religious channels in Jammu, a renowned cable network proprietor today said that there was no such directive.
*&#8220;We read the news in some newspapers but have no such orders or directions from the government,&#8221; owner of Cable Network Jammu and Director JK Channel told a local news agency, KNS.*
*He told KNS that these channels were on the air and no one has asked &#8216;us to stop their telecast.&#8217;
&#8220;I don&#8217;t know where from the news has come but I too read it in newspapers,&#8221; he said.*
It is pertinent to mention here that several separatist organizations had condemned the banning of these channels and Syed Ali Geelani had assured Jammu Muslims that his Hurriyat was &#8216;with them.&#8217;
Commenting on these statements, the Director of JK Channel said: &#8220;Fact of the matter is that we have not received any such directions from any government agency and the said channels are on air.&#8221;
&#8220;Furthermore, let me say, Kashmir Muslims are 300 Kms far away from Jammu Muslims and let all know that we and our Muslim brethren in Jammu are one,&#8221; he said.

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## Gene

Xtremeownage said:


> Ina Lillahi Wa Ina Lillah!
> 
> Indian tyranny will soon come to an end, Insha Allah!
> 
> Kashmir is a part of Pakistan, and the 2/5 of Kashmir that has been illegally occupied by the Indians must be handed over to Pakistan, as it is a part of this Pak sar zameen!
> 
> May God help Pakistan, our brothers/sisters in Indian occupied Kashmir, and all the Muslims. Ameen!



Nice dream!! keep it up.....
Unfortunately your dream will not come true in this millennium..

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## duhastmish

*god bless them people in kashmir . the irony is that its not just kashmir where people are suffering but tis whole india. where cops and politicians are opressing poor people.

the only problem with kashmir is that voice doesnt go out, people who live in india think that everything is fine in kashmir. because they have their own family and friends earning in big $ and driving their expensive cars so same goes on in kashmir.

crpf need to be kicked out kashmir and local police should be given responsibilty of kashmir. 

People have to understabd kashmir will never be seprated from india and if it is that will be too costly. it will cost two countries. so the best way is : indian people raise their voice and give support to kashmir people, not for love of country then atleast for humanity.*


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## dabong1

duhastmish said:


> *god bless them people in kashmir . the irony is that its not just kashmir where people are suffering but tis whole india. where cops and politicians are opressing poor people.
> 
> the only problem with kashmir is that voice doesnt go out, people who live in india think that everything is fine in kashmir. because they have their own family and friends earning in big $ and driving their expensive cars so same goes on in kashmir.
> 
> crpf need to be kicked out kashmir and local police should be given responsibilty of kashmir.
> 
> People have to understabd kashmir will never be seprated from india and if it is that will be too costly. it will cost two countries. so the best way is : indian people raise their voice and give support to kashmir people, not for love of country then atleast for humanity.*



Good jod your not incharge of kashmir affairs in india otherwise pakistan would lose the kashmir "war".
Keep the common sense to yourself


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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The affected families in Kashmir, and all others, should be compensated by an end to Indian occupation and subjugation of Kashmir, by being allowed to exercise their right of self-determination.


The question of self-determination arises only when a territory in question is said to be occupied. Jammu and Kashmir is an integral part of India and as such forms a state of the Indian Union. Only in Pakistan is it known as "Indian occupied Kashmir" and variations thereof.

When Pakistan decided to ignore the initial draft of Resolution 47 (withdrawal of troops for UN and India to conduct a plebiscite), it set a precedence for ignorance of future revisions of this particular resolution. Anyhow, this resolution was under chapter VI (non-binding) as opposed to chapter VII (mandatory).
India legally annexed J&K and so it now forms a state in the Indian Union. Any untoward incidents in the state is now an internal law and order matter for the government and it is up to the government to enforce the constitution and laws in the state. India claims the whole state as its territory and enforces the govt.'s writ in the state, unlike some countries which claim territories but cannot constitutionally control the areas and have to resort to unholy deals with entities to ensure safety of other areas.


> These are not COIN operations, they are operations to enforce occupation and subjugation, and thousands killed by Indian security forces were innocents tortured and massacred in pursuit of the subduing of the people of Kashmir, and not just 'accidental collateral damage'.


In lieu of the above context, it becomes the imperative of the Indian and the J&K state governments to ensure safety of the population from nefarious elements who in the name of religion and "freedom" have unleashed a reign of terror in the state. Such operations are known as COIN - a term which I believe you are very familiar with including its ROEs. And so, the operations carried out by the forces can be termed as COIN ops. Collateral damage in such cases is very much an unwelcome but unavoidable reality.


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## Areesh

Nothing new in IOk. Something very common by the frustrated Indian security forces. Let's see how much India is capable to continue this circle of tyranny.

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## third eye

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Whether this particular story is correct or not has little to do with my larger point.



The larger ' point' actually is a perception.

If the facts in Pak are any different than what is known then this would be mirrored in other international news channels as well.

Not that I am suggesting that all is bad in Pak but after seeing things as they have emerged over the last decade, those Indians who have the time & inclination to think of Pak generally agree with the perceptions of GOI.


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## hillman32

Indian Army is committing a genocide and they will tried - if not today, surely tomorrow.

This is 21 Century and crimes against humanity cannot be hidden.

Media will expose and conscious will prick.

Offenders will sing and will be dealt with...................................

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## chantpapipart2

do not interfere in our internal matters

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## ameer219

chantpapipart2 said:


> do not interfere in our internal matters



Do not interfere? When was Kashmir officially yours. As far as I know, it is still a disputed area be it PhK or IhK we have a right to know what is happening there in Kashmir, and lend support to them diplomatically and morally!

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## Roshan

> Indian Army is committing a genocide and they will tried - if not today, surely tomorrow.
> 
> This is 21 Century and crimes against humanity cannot be hidden.
> 
> Media will expose and conscious will prick.
> 
> Offenders will sing and will be dealt with...................................




HAHA makes me laugh when pakistanis use the word "genocide" lol rememeber 1971?? 1971 is second only to the "holocaut" which happend in europe.....

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## truefriend

Pakistan 'army air strike kills dozens of civilians' 

At least 73 civilians were killed when an army jet bombed a remote village in Pakistan's tribal region of Khyber, a local official has told the BBC.

He said the incident took place on Saturday but news was slow in being reported because of the inaccessibility of the region.

The jet was involved in operations against Taliban militants in the nearby Orakzai tribal region.

Officials have reportedly already paid compensation to families of victims.

The military insists most of those killed were militants, but local sources say many civilians have also been killed.

Many people have died in air strikes in the area over the past 18 months.

Villagers say another strike - by a US drone missile - killed 13 people on Monday.

Gagging order

Military spokesman Maj Gen Athar Abbas told Associated Press news agency on Monday that those killed in the Pakistan army air strike were attacked because it had intelligence that militants were gathering at the site.

He denied civilians had died and said the victims were initially reported to be suspected militants, AP said.

The BBC's Orla Guerin says an official claims that 73 civilians were killed

Those on the ground gave a different version of events.

"All those killed were innocent civilians," the local administration official told the BBC.

"The dead include women and children. Dozens of people were also injured."

The official said he could not speak on the record as the military had put a "gagging order" on him to limit the fallout.

He said that initial information suggested that the jet had strayed away from the conflict zone and mistook the village for a militant compound.
Local officials have paid compensation amounting to more than $100,000 (£65,000) to the families of those killed, an unnamed official told the Associated Press news agency.

The BBC's Orla Guerin in Islamabad says this is a strong indication that local authorities, at least, believe a tragic mistake has been made.

The injured have been moved to hospitals in the nearby city of Peshawar. They are being treated under strict guard.

Police prevented a BBC correspondent from interviewing the injured at the Hayatabad medical complex in Peshawar.

Other reporters have also been denied access.

Correspondents say that the army is under heavy pressure from the US to move forcefully against Taliban and al-Qaeda militants in the north-west.

The army regularly reports killing militants in air strikes, but consistently denies it is responsible for civilian deaths.

Relief agencies say the offensives against militants in Pakistan and in neighbouring Afghanistan have displaced more than one million people



this was the same thing that happend in J&K


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## jbond197

ameer219 said:


> Do not interfere? When was Kashmir officially yours. As far as I know, it is still a disputed area be it PhK or IhK *we have a right to know what is happening there in Kashmir*,



Probably that's the reason why people are sent crossing over LOC. To check what is going on India's side of J&K. 



> and lend support to them diplomatically and morally!


We know lots of people as well to lend support both diplomatically and morally. BTW you are doing much more than diplomatic and moral support. Also if you think you can provide diplomatic support ask your foreign office to raise this issue with India and wait for the reply.

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## jbond197

truefriend said:


> Pakistan 'army air strike kills dozens of civilians'
> 
> At least 73 civilians were killed when an army jet bombed a remote village in Pakistan's tribal region of Khyber, a local official has told the BBC.
> 
> He said the incident took place on Saturday but news was slow in being reported because of the inaccessibility of the region.
> 
> The jet was involved in operations against Taliban militants in the nearby Orakzai tribal region.
> 
> Officials have reportedly already paid compensation to families of victims.
> 
> The military insists most of those killed were militants, but local sources say many civilians have also been killed.
> 
> Many people have died in air strikes in the area over the past 18 months.
> 
> Villagers say another strike - by a US drone missile - killed 13 people on Monday.
> 
> Gagging order
> 
> Military spokesman Maj Gen Athar Abbas told Associated Press news agency on Monday that those killed in the Pakistan army air strike were attacked because it had intelligence that militants were gathering at the site.
> 
> He denied civilians had died and said the victims were initially reported to be suspected militants, AP said.
> 
> The BBC's Orla Guerin says an official claims that 73 civilians were killed
> 
> Those on the ground gave a different version of events.
> 
> "All those killed were innocent civilians," the local administration official told the BBC.
> 
> "The dead include women and children. Dozens of people were also injured."
> 
> The official said he could not speak on the record as the military had put a "gagging order" on him to limit the fallout.
> 
> He said that initial information suggested that the jet had strayed away from the conflict zone and mistook the village for a militant compound.
> Local officials have paid compensation amounting to more than $100,000 (£65,000) to the families of those killed, an unnamed official told the Associated Press news agency.
> 
> The BBC's Orla Guerin in Islamabad says this is a strong indication that local authorities, at least, believe a tragic mistake has been made.
> 
> The injured have been moved to hospitals in the nearby city of Peshawar. They are being treated under strict guard.
> 
> Police prevented a BBC correspondent from interviewing the injured at the Hayatabad medical complex in Peshawar.
> 
> Other reporters have also been denied access.
> 
> Correspondents say that the army is under heavy pressure from the US to move forcefully against Taliban and al-Qaeda militants in the north-west.
> 
> The army regularly reports killing militants in air strikes, but consistently denies it is responsible for civilian deaths.
> 
> Relief agencies say the offensives against militants in Pakistan and in neighbouring Afghanistan have displaced more than one million people
> 
> 
> 
> this was the same thing that happend in J&K




Nah Buddy! Only their terrorists are terrorists and rest of a$$holes are innocent souls.


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## DaRk WaVe

Roshan said:


> HAHA makes me laugh when pakistanis use the word "genocide" lol rememeber 1971?? 1971 is second only to the "holocaut" which happend in europe.....



yes its a genocide a systematic genocide, where there is no check over IA & police, they can kill everyone by labeling them insurgents 

*Indian Army and Police Tied to Kashmir Killings ​*
SRINAGAR, Kashmir, Feb. 3  Amid a grove of poplar trees in a village just north of here, a grave was unearthed Thursday afternoon. Out came the body of a man, shot dead nearly two months ago, whom the Indian police described at the time as an anti-Indian militant from Pakistan.
An elderly man, who had been searching for his missing son for nearly two months, was summoned for the exhumation. He stared at the horror dug out of the ground and told the police what he had refused to believe all this time. He is my son, he said. Then he sat on the bare ground and shook.

As it turned out, the dead man, Abdul Rehman Paddar, was not a Pakistani at all, nor a militant. He was a Kashmiri carpenter from a village south of here. The Indian police are now investigating whether he was killed by some of their own men, for motives that could range from personal revenge to greed. A suspected militants body, after all, comes with a handsome cash reward. By Saturday, four police officers were under arrest in connection with Mr. Paddars killing.

S. M. Sahai, the chief of police for Kashmir, said his investigators were looking into whether at least two other bodies were part of the same ring; setups like the killing of Mr. Paddar are known here as encounter killings. Each of the victims had been killed in operations conducted jointly by the police and either an Indian Army unit or a paramilitary force that operates under army command, he said.

By the end of the day on Saturday, as the investigation snowballed, a total of five bodies had been exhumed, all in the area surrounding Sumbal, and their identities were being checked.

The exhumations have not only unearthed a deep well of resentment among the people of Indian-administered Kashmir, but have also forced the Indian government to face anew long-simmering charges of abuse by Indian soldiers and the police.

Kashmiris have long accused the Indian authorities of disappearances and extrajudicial killings; one local human rights group estimates that 10,000 people have disappeared since the anti-Indian insurgency began here in 1989. Nor have civilians been immune to the savagery of militants; beheadings are among their favored tactics.

India blames its rival and neighbor, Pakistan, for aiding and arming the insurgents. Pakistan denies the charge, and does not recognize Indias claim to Kashmir. Claimed by both countries, Kashmir has been a center of strife for nearly 60 years.

While the violence has calmed considerably since a 2004 peace deal between India and Pakistan, it has hardly ended the bloodshed or diminished the presence of Indian troops here. India says troop reduction can begin only when the militants lay down their weapons.

Those troops have been blamed repeatedly for human rights abuses here, most recently by a 156-page report released last October by Human Rights Watch, which detailed dozens of cases in which, it said, the state had failed to hold its security forces accountable for suspected abductions, killings and detentions.

Among the most infamous of those cases were the March 2000 killings in the southern village of Pathirabal of five men, whom the army identified as foreign terrorists responsible for a massacre of Sikh civilians. The men, whose bodies had been burned and badly mutilated, turned out to be civilians abducted by the army, according to relatives and a subsequent federal investigation.

In a rare instance of prosecution, five Indian soldiers were charged with the killings, but the case remains stuck in the courts nearly seven years later, and the accused remain on the job. The army insists that they be tried by an internal court martial, and not a civilian court.

Human Rights Watch blamed the Indian government for what it called its lack of commitment to accountability and a series of Indian laws that shield soldiers in conflict zones like Kashmir. This has led to a serious climate of impunity, the report concluded.

Indian officials have explicitly sought to use the latest cases of encounter killings to rebut accusations of impunity, pointing out that they have taken the lead in investigating army and police officials linked to what they call isolated abuses of power.

This is an aberration, Mr. Sahai, the police chief, said in an interview in his office here in the summer capital of Indian-run Kashmir. This is not the rule. We have not tried to suppress anything. Whatever are the facts of the case have come out in the open. If we are trying to set our house in order, that should increase public confidence.

Mr. Sahai said the police were also investigating whether members of the Indian Army were complicit in Mr. Paddars killing. [Indian newspapers reported Monday that the army said it would conduct an internal investigation into whether its soldiers were involved.]

The Kashmir state chief minister, Ghulam Nabi Azad, has likewise called for a judicial inquiry into the killings, promising a transparent investigation. Whether it will expand to include other suspected encounter killings remains a mystery; if it does expand, it could prove to be a public relations headache for New Delhi.

Last year, the prime minister promised zero tolerance of abuse by Indian forces in Kashmir, a pledge clearly intended to win the hearts-and-minds battle there.

The carpenter, Mr. Paddar, seems to have unwittingly instigated a test of that promise. According to interviews with the police as well as the mans friends and relatives, Mr. Paddar appears to have been well acquainted with at least one of the policeman charged with his murder, Farooq Ahmad Paddar, a native of the same village.

In fact, the carpenter had given the policeman roughly $1,650 in exchange for a promised government job, and for months, according to one of his relatives, the carpenter had pursued the policeman to keep his promise. The job never materialized.

One Friday last December, the policeman summoned the carpenter to a neighborhood of Srinagar, where the carpenter lived, said a co-worker who accompanied him part of the way. Thats when Mr. Paddar disappeared.

The carpenters family filed a missing person report, which would have gone nowhere, like hundreds of other missing person reports in Kashmir, were it not for a police investigator who found Mr. Paddars cellphone in the hands of a man several miles north of here last week.

According to investigators, the policeman gave away the carpenters cellphone, but only after, it seems, he and an unknown number of his colleagues shot him and gave his body to some villagers in Sumbal, a hamlet about an hours drive from Srinagar. They buried him.

The police, in a joint operation with a paramilitary unit called the Central Reserve Police Force, meanwhile, issued a statement claiming responsibility for having killed a militant of Pakistani origin.

The discovery of the cellphone led police investigators to Mr. Paddar, the police officer, and three of his colleagues. Eventually, it also led investigators to other graves suspected of being linked to the same murder ring.

According to the police, one victim was a perfume seller, who was picked up last February by the local police, the Central Reserve Police and an army unit known as the Rashtriya Rifles. Another was a local Islamic cleric, who was picked up from his home in October 2005 by the police and the Rashtriya Rifles.

On Thursday afternoon, as teams of police and forensic investigators dug for Mr. Paddars remains, hundreds of angry villagers, kept away by a ring of concertina wire, shouted familiar slogans. Azadi, or freedom, went one chant. Hang him, they also yelled, referring to the killer.

In the angry tussle, bricks were thrown at the police. Tear gas was fired back. Mr. Paddars body, pocked with four bullets, including one that tore apart his face, was plucked out of the ground, shrouded in a white cloth, and put inside a simple wooden coffin, all before his grieving father. From the village women came songs of mourning, a familiar chorus in Kashmir.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/06/world/asia/06kashmir.html?_r=1


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## jbond197

^^^^
Same PAF in collaboration with US is doing in Khyber, NWFP, North Wajiristan. Killing Terrorists..


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## truefriend

man take care of your home first ....
lots of civilians killed by your own made terrorists ..


there are no one who care about your cry

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## DaRk WaVe

jbond197 said:


> ^^^^
> Same PAF in collaboration with US is doing in Khyber, NWFP, North Wajiristan. Killing Terrorists..



Collateral Damage is different from the instance when IA will single out some people as insurgents & kill them just to fulfill their quota

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## truefriend

EmO GiRl said:


> Collateral Damage is different from the instance when IA will single out some people as insurgents & kill them just to fulfill their quota




same thing applied for PAF

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## Abu Zolfiqar

FreekiN said:


> Everyone who opposes Indian occupation is a terrorist.
> 
> Nice logic.



that's indian (ill)logic for you! 

no new news here, dear. 


Kashmiris are a strong people though. Mashallah.


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## DaRk WaVe

truefriend said:


> same thing applied for PAF



illogical point, my point stands


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## truefriend

EmO GiRl said:


> illogical point, my point stands



tum karo to chamatkar or ham kare to balat****


forget it... who cares about this thread 
well done j&K send all those fu**g terrorists in the hell


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## ramu

EmO GiRl said:


> yes its a genocide a systematic genocide, where there is no check over IA & police, they can kill everyone by labeling them insurgents



There is also a constant inflow of terrorists who attempt to cross the border/LoC between India and Pakistan. Stop aiding and abetting terrorism and the force on the Indian side will reduce automatically making sure, the valley is calm and life becomes normal. 
However, that is not what Pakistan wants, right ?

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## mrwarrior006

yeah its an serious problem in india


kill all these crimnals

trying to stop indian development


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## jbond197

EmO GiRl said:


> Collateral Damage is different from the instance when IA will single out some people as insurgents & kill them just to fulfill their quota



That's your way of thinking. As Ejaz rightly said what were they doing at midnight and why did they tried running away? They were timber smuggler when Army patrol challenged them, they prefered to run away. What do you think anybody would have done in such circumstances? We have seen the havoc terrorists has created through out our country so no more naughty business allowed whether in Kashmir or elsewhere.

Just for settling the records, compare the number of civilian deaths happening in NWFP, North wajiristan etc and Kashmir then tell me who is fullfilling their quota better. PAF doesn't even single out people they bomb them in groups.

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## mrwarrior006

oh my god 

one day all these disgusting terrorist will be gone from india

india willl prosper in full flow


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## AHMED85

Gene said:


> Nice dream!! keep it up.....
> Unfortunately your dream will not come true in this millennium..



oh sour you had seen dreams in your life.....


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## chantpapipart2

ameer219 said:


> Do not interfere? When was Kashmir officially yours. As far as I know, it is still a disputed area be it PhK or IhK we have a right to know what is happening there in Kashmir, and lend support to them diplomatically and morally!


As per resolution of indian parliament, kashmir is an integral part of our country and as an Indian I totally believe that. If anyone in Kashmir has any problem with that he/she can go to Pakistan. We don't have any issues....

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## yuvabharat

mrwarrior006 said:


> oh my god
> 
> one day all these disgusting terrorist will be gone from india
> 
> india willl prosper in full flow


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## DaRk WaVe

ramu said:


> There is also a constant inflow of terrorists who attempt to cross the border/LoC between India and Pakistan. Stop aiding and abetting terrorism and the force on the Indian side will reduce automatically making sure, the valley is calm and life becomes normal.
> However, that is not what Pakistan wants, right ?



that aint debunking my point, Collateral Damage is different from the instance when IA will single out some people as insurgents & kill them just to fulfill their quota


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## DaRk WaVe

jbond197 said:


> That's your way of thinking. As Ejaz rightly said what were they doing at midnight and why did they tried running away? They were timber smuggler when Army patrol challenged them, they prefered to run away. What do you think anybody would have done in such circumstances? We have seen the havoc terrorists has created through out our country so no more naughty business allowed whether in Kashmir or elsewhere.
> 
> Just for settling the records, compare the number of civilian deaths happening in NWFP, North wajiristan etc and Kashmir then tell me who is fullfilling their quota better. PAF doesn't even single out people they bomb them in groups.



I aint talking about Ejaz, i have posted the NYT article which said that IA kills people by labeling them insurgents just to fullfill quota, the misguided & unintentional strikes by PAF are in no way comparable to acts of IA

the dynamics of insurgency in Kashmir & FATA are different no need to compare them

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## DesiGuy

Kashmir. 

No need to say anything on this issue!

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## thebrownguy

EmO GiRl said:


> I aint talking about Ejaz, i have posted the NYT article which said that IA kills people by labeling them insurgents just to fullfill quota, the misguided & unintentional strikes by PAF are in no way comparable to acts of IA
> 
> the dynamics of insurgency in Kashmir & FATA are different no need to compare them



Human rights need to be violated to crush rebellions. It is impossible for the army to maintain a clean record, as it is difficult to single out terrorists sometimes. In this case, it was sandalwood smugglers, which can easily create suspicion. 
And IA shares a way better record when its about human rights compared to Pakistani army. Does operation searchlight ring any bells?

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## DaRk WaVe

thebrownguy said:


> Human rights need to be violated to crush rebellions. It is impossible for the army to maintain a clean record, as it is difficult to single out terrorists sometimes. In this case, it was sandalwood smugglers, which can easily create suspicion.
> And IA shares a way better record when its about human rights compared to Pakistani army. Does operation searchlight ring any bells?



all right violate them for insurgents only not for everyone, just to fulfill quota 

Yeah I know about Search Light, I also know about Operation Blue Star, we aint talking about it right now

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## thebrownguy

EmO GiRl said:


> all right violate them for insurgents only not for everyone, just to fulfill quota
> 
> Yeah I know about Search Light, I also know about Operation Blue Star, we aint talking about it right now



Emo .. ignore the last bit, think with a neutral POV. Will army just kill civilians to fulfill a "quota"? Also most operations now are being carried out jointly by the J and K police with the army. Do you think even the local police has a "quota" to fulfill?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

DesiGuy said:


> Kashmir.
> 
> No need to say anything on this issue!



so instead, lets all just waste bandwidth by posting 'nothing'

sensible move on your part

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## truefriend

thebrownguy said:


> Emo .. ignore the last bit, think with a neutral POV. Will army just kill civilians to fulfill a "quota"? Also most operations now are being carried out jointly by the J and K police with the army. Do you think even the local police has a "quota" to fulfill?




dont reply on these frustrated peoples who thought that IA is like PA.
who kill people to fulfil their quota

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## James007

EmO GiRl said:


> all right violate them for insurgents only not for everyone, just to fulfill quota
> 
> Yeah I know about Search Light, I also know about Operation Blue Star, we aint talking about it right now



in reality operation blue star was carried out bcoz they started to think about liberation of punjab .the real motive of Indra gandhi was to crush the demands in any way,she did so.she knew this is going to happen.to get something ,loosing is necessary.although unfortunate was after killings of sikh people.although a lot of mistakes were carried at the time of operation also.but now punjab is safe and far away frm any such activities


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## DaRk WaVe

thebrownguy said:


> Emo .. ignore the last bit, think with a neutral POV. Will army just kill civilians to fulfill a "quota"? Also most operations now are being carried out jointly by the J and K police with the army. Do you think even the local police has a "quota" to fulfill?



don't ask me, ask NYT, they are reporting it & no doubt 'quota' exists


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## Abu Zolfiqar

(An appendage to Sister Emo's post)

Here's an excerpt:




> An elderly man, who had been searching for his missing son for nearly two months, was summoned for the exhumation. He stared at the horror dug out of the ground and told the police what he had refused to believe all this time. &#8220;He is my son,&#8221; he said. Then he sat on the bare ground and shook.
> 
> As it turned out, the dead man, Abdul Rehman Paddar, was not a Pakistani at all, nor a militant. He was a Kashmiri carpenter from a village south of here. The Indian police are now investigating whether he was killed by some of their own men, for motives that could range from personal revenge to greed. A suspected militant&#8217;s body, after all, comes with a handsome cash reward.
> 
> S. M. Sahai, the chief of police for Kashmir, said his investigators were looking into whether at least two other bodies were part of the same ring; setups like the killing of Mr. Paddar are known here as &#8220;encounter killings.&#8221; Each of the victims had been killed in operations conducted jointly by the police and either an Indian Army unit or a paramilitary force that operates under army command, he said.
> 
> By the end of the day on Saturday, as the investigation snowballed, a total of five bodies had been exhumed, all in the area surrounding Sumbal, and their identities were being checked.
> 
> The exhumations have not only unearthed a deep well of resentment among the people of Indian-administered Kashmir, but have also forced the Indian government to face anew long-simmering charges of abuse by Indian soldiers and the police.
> 
> Kashmiris have long accused the Indian authorities of disappearances and extrajudicial killings; one local human rights group estimates that 10,000 people have disappeared since the anti-Indian insurgency began here in 1989.
> 
> ....
> 
> 
> [T]roops have been blamed repeatedly for human rights abuses here, most recently by a 156-page report released last October by Human Rights Watch, which detailed dozens of cases in which, it said, the state had failed to hold its security forces accountable for suspected abductions, killings and detentions.
> 
> Among the most infamous of those cases were the March 2000 killings in the southern village of Pathirabal of five men, whom the army identified as foreign terrorists responsible for a massacre of Sikh civilians. The men, whose bodies had been burned and badly mutilated, turned out to be civilians abducted by the army, according to relatives and a subsequent federal investigation.
> 
> Human Rights Watch blamed the Indian government for what it called its &#8220;lack of commitment&#8221; to accountability and a series of Indian laws that shield soldiers in conflict zones like Kashmir. &#8220;This has led to a serious climate of impunity,&#8221; the report concluded.



you may find rest of the NYT article here:


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/06/world/asia/06kashmir.html

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## Areesh

chantpapipart2 said:


> As per resolution of indian parliament, kashmir is an integral part of our country and as an Indian I totally believe that. If anyone in Kashmir has any problem with that he/she can go to Pakistan. We don't have any issues....



Nobody cares about your parliament and you. What matters is that Kshmiris don't like you and your occupation. So it's better to get your a** out of there or else we can't guarantee peace in your country.


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## DesiGuy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> so instead, lets all just waste bandwidth by posting 'nothing'
> 
> sensible move on your part
> 
> 
> Thanks you Sir.
> 
> 
> i thought i am the only sensible person here, but good to see that you are also "Sensible" person.

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## DesiGuy

Areesh said:


> Nobody cares about your parliament and you. What matters is that Kshmiris don't like you and your occupation. So it's better to get your a** out of there *or else we can't guarantee peace in your country.*





 


But remember, there will be no peace in Pakistan as well, if there is no peace in India. 


By the way, There is lot of peace in most of the India.

Maybe you are talking about only one Indian state, Not like Whole Nation unlike Pakistan.

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## Mirza Jatt

Areesh said:


> Nobody cares about your parliament and you. What matters is that Kshmiris don't like you and your occupation. So it's better to get your a** out of there or else *we can't guarantee peace in your country.*



you are speaking the mind of your politicians 

we know you dont care about our parliament just the way we dont care about yours.

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## Raghu

Kashmir is a conflct zone with serious religious political angle with a proxy war launched from across the border.

Its due to overarching Indian democracy ,unique article 370 which safeguards demography and best possible restrain shown by Indian security forces that Kashmir after twenty years of insurgency is still don't inspire too much hope in our opponents or attract international condemnation for human right violations.


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## Raghu

Areesh said:


> Nobody cares about your parliament and you. What matters is that Kshmiris don't like you and your occupation. So it's better to get your a** out* of there or else we can't guarantee peace in your country.*



If we go by ur PM's statement where he say if he cant control terrorism inside Pakistan ,how can he control terrorist who aim to attack India.We know u gotta hell of a problem.

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## toxic_pus

EmO GiRl said:


> yes its a genocide a systematic genocide, where there is no check over IA & police, they can kill everyone by labeling them insurgents


Any killing doesn't qualify as genocide. According to International Criminal Court...



> ..any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
> 
> (a) Killing members of the group;
> (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
> (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
> (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
> (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


The Kashmiri militants don't qualify as any identifiable 'group'. On the other hand Hindus of erstwhile East Pakistan did.

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## Areesh

Indian Jatt said:


> you are speaking the mind of your politicians
> 
> we know you dont care about our parliament just the way we dont care about yours.



We don't need you to care about our parliament we just want you not cry like a jerk when you are needed to pay the price for your occupation. And believe me you have been paying the price and you will again have to pay the price. Just don't cry then.


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## Wasif A.K.

what!are you nuts, well can't really blame you my friend ....... if you forgot what happened to the innocents of India then all i can say is that you people are sick when your people are killed you shout only then, but when Kashmiri's are killed you people say oh yeah they are terrorists... sick minded people shame on you!


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## Areesh

Raghu said:


> If we go by ur PM's statement where he say if he cant control terrorism inside Pakistan ,how can he control terrorist who aim to attack India.We know u gotta hell of a problem.



You don't worry about our problem just be ready to pay the price. And when you have to pay the price don't cry.


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## Mirza Jatt

Areesh said:


> We don't need you to care about our parliament



agreed..and thats what we are doing..BTW you started it and advicing us ?? 



> we just want you not cry like a jerk when you are needed to pay the price for your occupation. And believe me you have been paying the price and you will again have to pay the price. *Just don't cry then.*



Oh god !! years have passed buddy listening to your same old story....dont cry when you pay the price  .
I really request you please teach us a lesson if you can...

who is crying here buddy

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## DesiGuy

EVERYBODY Calm down. 


USA will help both of you to resolve this issue!! 

Happy now?


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## Wasif A.K.

Hey Indian Jatt where do you live in India. The reason for asking is that i may visit India in near future to meet some old relatives there. Then i shall make you pay at your own turf

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## toxic_pus

EmO GiRl said:


> don't ask me, ask NYT, they are reporting it & *no doubt 'quota' exists*


Prove that 'quota' exists.

Since there is no doubt in your mind, that 'quota' exists, I am assuming it won't be difficult for you to present your evidence.


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## thebrownguy

toxic_pus said:


> Any killing doesn't qualify as genocide. According to International Criminal Court...
> 
> 
> The Kashmiri militants don't qualify as any identifiable 'group'. On the other hand Hindus of erstwhile East Pakistan did.



So did the poor Kashmiri Pandits!! Look what their brave " mujahideen" terrorists do to the Pandits!! Was that not genocide?

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## DesiGuy

Wasif A.K. said:


> Hey Indian Jatt where do you live in India. The reason for asking is that i may visit India in near future to meet some old relatives there. Then i shall make you pay at your own turf






Oh man, That WAS Deep!

Dude no need to fight. OK. 

Cold war is better than War!

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## Mirza Jatt

Wasif A.K. said:


> Hey Indian Jatt where do you live in India. The reason for asking is that i may visit India in near future to meet some old relatives there. Then i shall make you pay at your own turf



ha ha .... ok buddy we will play cricket match and decide who wins..lol.

BTW I live in Ludhiana...do contact me if you evr come..and yes I have my relatives in Lahore as well..so beware I might come there as well..

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## Abu Zolfiqar

those who visit Lahore hate to leave 

ask your relatives


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## toxic_pus

thebrownguy said:


> So did the poor Kashmiri Pandits!! Look what their brave " mujahideen" terrorists did to the Pandits!! Was that not genocide?


Yes. That qualifies as genocide.


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## Mirza Jatt

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> those who visit Lahore hate to leave
> 
> ask your relatives



I know buddy..its a great place..talked to them few times over the phone...and they tell about the place..infact they say its more modern compared to other states...actually I really hope to visit there someday.


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## thebrownguy

Hmmm .. nice to see all the bonding !! Its cute!! lol


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## Wasif A.K.

ludhiana is in which state &#191;


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## Mirza Jatt

Wasif A.K. said:


> ludhiana is in which state ¿



Its in Punjab...it takes two hours from Amritsar.


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## Areesh

Indian Jatt said:


> agreed..and thats what we are doing..BTW you started it and advicing us ??
> 
> 
> 
> Oh god !! years have passed buddy listening to your same old story....dont cry when you pay the price  .
> I really request you please teach us a lesson if you can...
> 
> who is crying here buddy



And if you are in the illusion that you can get away with your use of Afghan land against then think again.

And as far as Kashmir is concerned future has stored many things stored for your terrorist army and your country.

Start building an orphanage for your army.


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## Wasif A.K.

and how far is it from rajasthan state?


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## Mirza Jatt

Areesh said:


> And if you are in the illusion that you can get away with your use of Afghan land against then think again.
> 
> And as far as Kashmir is concerned future has stored many things stored for your terrorist army and your country.
> 
> Start building an orphanage for your army.



okeyh !! very intelligent and very smart...and we will just give Kashmir to you as fine for our army terrorising the locals..happy now ??

your posts dont amuse me anymore cause suddenly I am having a good chat about my land and relatives in Pakistan with some of you more peace loving friends.


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## Mirza Jatt

Wasif A.K. said:


> and how far is it from rajasthan state?



depends where exactly you are in Rajsthan....but on an average you can reach there in 4 hours.


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## Mirza Jatt

infact if you are in ganganagar(a border dist between Rajasthan and Punjab..you can reach there in two and half hours.


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## Areesh

Indian Jatt said:


> okeyh !! very intelligent and very smart...and we will just give Kashmir to you as fine for our army terrorising the locals..happy now ??
> 
> your posts dont amuse me anymore cause suddenly I am having a good chat about my land and relatives in Pakistan with some of you more peace loving friends.



Well history teaches us that if there is an end to indian occupation of Kashmir than it goes through this . We have Azad Kashmir not because of stupid dialogue but killing the enemy.

I am off from this thread now.


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## Mirza Jatt

Areesh said:


> Well history teaches us that if there is an end to indian occupation of Kashmir than it goes through this . We have Azad Kashmir not because of stupid dialogue but killing the enemy.



I would say its opposite ..if ever the problem will be solved then by dialogue and not war.



> I am off from this thread now.



thanks


----------



## jbond197

EmO GiRl said:


> don't ask me, ask NYT, they are reporting it & no doubt 'quota' exists



NYT, you are talking about. How can we believe in the stories published in western media about the area they might not have even dared to put foot on? and 'Quota' only exists in the mind of few people who like to take a dig at India at the drop of a hat. 

Secondly you posted an article from 2007 and situation has changed drastically in past couple of years. Security is handed over mostly to the police force (or it is in transition phase) which for your informaiton comprises only locals. I hope they won't be having such quota in their mind which includes even their families.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

you are welcome to our country anytime.....just behave yourself when you come here.

you are also required to stand up and face the flag if national anthem is being played

but that's nice you have relatives in Lahore. Fun city; im always very happy when i go there.


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## duhastmish

i find it so funny how indian people are always play so unaware about atrocities on kashmiri people.

like nothing is goign on , yeh terrorism is wrong innocent people in delhi mumbai are killed only by terrorist. 

but same thing is happening in kashmir everyday - people are dying and suffering. Indian people need to raise their voice for them,

no wonder kashmiri dont like indian govt - indian media is too busy running around bollywood and cricket . politician too busy over saffron and green fight.


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## Mirza Jatt

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> you are welcome to our country anytime.....just behave yourself when you come here.
> 
> you are also required to stand up and face the flag if national anthem is being played
> 
> but that's nice you have relatives in Lahore. Fun city; im always very happy when i go there.



thanks for your welcome...and dont worry about my behaviour...we know how to act when when visiting some other place or any country...and we do stand if the national anthem of any country is being played not just Pakistan's.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

very clever 


we know the real reasons


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## ameer219

jbond197 said:


> Probably that's the reason why people are sent crossing over LOC. To check what is going on India's side of J&K.
> 
> 
> We know lots of people as well to lend support both diplomatically and morally. BTW you are doing much more than diplomatic and moral support. Also if you think you can provide diplomatic support ask your foreign office to raise this issue with India and wait for the reply.




Honestly, you are firstly not understanding my whole point, but to prove, that the other side of Kashmir also matter to us, and its definitely our business to know what is going on there.

Secondly, Whether Pakistan have send in militants across the LOC, I really can't blame Pakistan, because of India unwillingness to continue dialogue, and solve this problem quickly.

Furthermore, I doubt we even have to raise this issue with India, as they will shun this topic away and probably ask Pakistan to concentrate more on terrorism.


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## ameer219

chantpapipart2 said:


> As per resolution of indian parliament, kashmir is an integral part of our country and as an Indian I totally believe that. If anyone in Kashmir has any problem with that he/she can go to Pakistan. We don't have any issues....



Yeah, that's India Resolution, Not Pakistani's resolution.

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## EjazR

*Greater Kashmir: NC activist among 3 killed*

Srinagar, Apr 23: Three persons, including a National Conference activist, a cable operator and a militant were killed in militancy related incidents across the state during the past 24-hours, police and reports said on Friday.

&#8220;The gunmen barged into the house of the NC activist Sonaullah War, 50, at Kach Mohalla in Hajin, 40 kms from here, last night and resorted to indiscriminate firing killing him on the spot and injuring his son Muzaffar Ahmad War critically,&#8221; a police spokesman said.

*CABLE OPERATOR SHOT DEAD*
Gunmen fired upon Ashiq Hussain, proprietor of the local cable network, at Sopur town, 50 kms from here, on Friday evening. &#8220;Hussain sustained critical injuries in the attack. He was rushed to a hospital where doctors declared him brought dead,&#8221; a police official told Greater Kashmir.
He said the assailants managed to escape under the cover of darkness.

-------------------
Peace can't come until militants stop killing any political activists that don't hold their point of view. How can we assess what the people want when pro-Indian politicians keep getting killed like this with impunity.

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## truefriend

Pakistan want whole kashmir .... but some part of kashmir is occupied by china also so why pakistan ask their close friend china to give it back to pak...


or they are not able to do it????

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## truefriend

http://www.indiabuzzing.com/wp-content/uploads/state-of-jammu-and-kashmir1.jpeg


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## dabong1

truefriend said:


> Pakistan want whole kashmir .... but some part of kashmir is occupied by china also so why pakistan ask their close friend china to give it back to pak...
> 
> 
> or they are not able to do it????



How many people living aksai chin?


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## Hyde

we resolved this dispute back in 1962 and agreed that Akshai Chin is an integral part of China thus we no longer have any border disputes with China and that laid the key foundations of friendship of Pakistan and China. Before we had recognized china but our relationships were not as trust worthy as they became after this dispute was peacefully resolved.

In simple words we think its a part of China and we have not claimed to be a disputed area

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## FreekiN

Well, right now it's a good thing because Pak Kashmir isnt surrounded by India. 
We have an ally holding friendly land.

And if you look at complete maps of Pakistan, there is no claim of Aksai Chin.

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## LCA Tejas

Zaki said:


> we resolved this dispute back in 1962 and agreed that Akshai Chin is an integral part of China so we do not have any border disputes with China after that and that laid the key foundations of friendship of Pakistan and China. Before we had recognized china but our relationships were not as trust worthy as they became after this dispute was peacefully resolved.
> 
> In simple words we think its a part of China and we have not claimed to be a disputed area



And why do You claim this Then??? , Just to keep the Anti-India Sentiments Alive

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## thebrownguy

Zaki said:


> we resolved this dispute back in 1962 and agreed that Akshai Chin is an integral part of China thus we no longer have any border disputes with China and that laid the key foundations of friendship of Pakistan and China. Before we had recognized china but our relationships were not as trust worthy as they became after this dispute was peacefully resolved.
> 
> In simple words we think its a part of China and we have not claimed to be a disputed area



why the double standards?

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## dabong1

*&#8216;India&#8217;s claims of Pakistan ceding territory in 1963 are false&#8217;*

NEW DELHI: Prominent lawyer AG Noorani has rebuffed the impression created by the Indian government, and widely accepted by Kashmiri leaders, that Pakistan ceded some Kashmiri territory to China in 1963.

At an Indo-Pak peace conference on Monday, People&#8217;s Conference Chairman Sajjad Ghani Lone had accused Pakistan of &#8220;gifting&#8221; Kashmiri territory to China. A few years ago, Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front chief Amanullah Khan had levelled similar allegations. Separatists have recently picked up the issue and demanded Beijing&#8217;s involvement in the Kashmir dispute. *&#8220;Based on documentary and archival evidence, Pakistan did not cede any land. On the contrary, it was China which ceded 750 square miles of administered territory to Pakistan under the Pakistan-China boundary agreement of March 3, 1963,&#8221;* Noorani told Daily Times.

He said according to Article 2 of the agreement, after the settlement of the Kashmir dispute between Pakistan and India, the sovereign authority concerned will reopen negotiations about the boundary with the Chinese government of the People&#8217;s Republic of China. iftikhar gilani
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-1-2010_pg7_40

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## Isaq Khan

Zaki said:


> we resolved this dispute back in 1962 and agreed that Akshai Chin is an integral part of China so we do not have any border disputes with China after that and that laid the key foundations of friendship of Pakistan and China. Before we had recognized china but our relationships were not as trust worthy as they became after this dispute was peacefully resolved.
> 
> In simple words we think its a part of China and we have not claimed to be a disputed area




In other words u have divided and gift wrapped Kashmir's part to china.
 
And harassing India just for nothing because of hate.

Hence, u have no right o morale to talk about Kashmir or show crocodile tears.

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## truefriend

Zaki said:


> we resolved this dispute back in 1962 and agreed that Akshai Chin is an integral part of China thus we no longer have any border disputes with China and that laid the key foundations of friendship of Pakistan and China. Before we had recognized china but our relationships were not as trust worthy as they became after this dispute was peacefully resolved.
> 
> In simple words we think its a part of China and we have not claimed to be a disputed area




who they are ... and how they give it to china.
kashmir is part of india and we can decide not you...
understand it .. it better for you

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## Hyde

LCA Tejas said:


> And why do You claim this Then??? , Just to keep the Anti-India Sentiments Alive





thebrownguy said:


> why the double standards?



What do you mean by double standards 

We sit on the tables we negotiated peacefully, found a peaceful solution of our problems and came to conclusion that Akshai Chin is an integral part of China. By this decision look at the way the friendship of Pakistan and China has developed which is considered "higher than mountains deeper than the sea".

We at least sat down on the tables and found the solution unlike India who is always relying on Do More words to avoid finding the peaceful solution of our problems

Whatever decision we took to to bring peace and stability in this region

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## Mirza Jatt

Zaki said:


> we resolved this dispute back in 1962 and agreed that Akshai Chin is an integral part of China thus we no longer have any border disputes with China and that laid the key foundations of friendship of Pakistan and China. Before we had recognized china but our relationships were not as trust worthy as they became after this dispute was peacefully resolved.
> 
> In simple words we think its a part of China and we have not claimed to be a disputed area



So you gave a part of *what you call *as your home to impress China and win their trust ??


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## Hyde

Indian Jatt said:


> So you gave a part of *what you call *as your home to impress China and win their trust ??



Yes in order bring peace and stability sometimes you have to compromise. I am willing to comprise on Jammu & Kashmir if we can come up with such a solution where we no longer remain hostile nations. We concluded give n take like resolution of Aksai Chin and i won't mind if they go for similar resolution in disputed Kashmir

At least we brought peace in the region. And what was really common between Aksai Chin and Pakistan? Majority of them were budhists and its a tiny peace of land + among the tallest mountains of the world with very low population and speaking different language and different culture than rest of the Pakistan.

I won't mind if the divide rest of the Kashmir on the basis of religion or Votings of the kashmiri peoples

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## Aslan

To all the Indians here running their mouth with out any evidence or proof with their statements please refer to Post # 8

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## dabong1

I think i need to post this again...

Based on documentary and archival evidence, Pakistan did not cede any land. On the contrary, it was China which ceded 750 square miles of administered territory to Pakistan under the Pakistan-China boundary agreement of March 3, 1963,

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## truefriend

dabong1 said:


> I think i need to post this again...
> 
> &#8220;Based on documentary and archival evidence, Pakistan did not cede any land. On the contrary, it was China which ceded 750 square miles of administered territory to Pakistan under the Pakistan-China boundary agreement of March 3, 1963,




here we are talking about aksai chin ...man grow up

how can you give them if are not owner??

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## Aslan

truefriend said:


> here we are talking about aksai chin ...man grow up
> 
> how can you give them if are not owner??



NEW DELHI: Prominent lawyer AG Noorani has rebuffed the impression created by the Indian government, and widely accepted by Kashmiri leaders, that Pakistan ceded some Kashmiri territory to China in 1963.

At an Indo-Pak peace conference on Monday, Peoples Conference Chairman Sajjad Ghani Lone had accused Pakistan of gifting Kashmiri territory to China. A few years ago, Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front chief Amanullah Khan had levelled similar allegations. Separatists have recently picked up the issue and demanded Beijings involvement in the Kashmir dispute. Based on documentary and archival evidence, Pakistan did not cede any land. On the contrary, it was China which ceded 750 square miles of administered territory to Pakistan under the Pakistan-China boundary agreement of March 3, 1963, Noorani told Daily Times.

He said according to Article 2 of the agreement, after the settlement of the Kashmir dispute between Pakistan and India, the sovereign authority concerned will reopen negotiations about the boundary with the Chinese government of the Peoples Republic of China. iftikhar gilani
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-1-2010_pg7_40


read again this is what was posted by DB. And how can we have given akashichin to China when the article clearly states that Pakistan never ceded any land to china on the contrary it was china that gave up 750 SQM to Pakistan. So you need to grow up.


I though that by opening this can of crap you were actually in a mood to put up a discussion and listen to others as well. The reality has been the opposite you just rang the alarm in trollistan and all the call center freaks all over india are now going to post as per their limited knowledge about this issue.


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## Mirza Jatt

Zaki said:


> Yes in order bring peace and stability sometimes you have to compromise. I am willing to comprise on Jammu & Kashmir if we can come up with such a solution where we no longer remain hostile nations. We concluded give n take like resolution of Aksai Chin and i won't mind if they go for similar resolution in disputed Kashmir
> 
> At least we brought peace in the region. And what was really common between Aksai Chin and Pakistan? Majority of them were budhists and its a tiny peace of land + among the tallest mountains of the world with very low population and speaking different language and different culture than rest of the Pakistan.
> 
> I won't mind if the divide rest of the Kashmir on the basis of religion or Votings of the kashmiri peoples



ok I take it as your personal opinion since different people think diffrenetly.
In my opinion I would not give any part of my homeland.I am sure if it was a Chinese land,then they wont give their land as well.
A true friend does not need to be offered land to make them trust me and if the people of that region are not common with us or their language not similar to us then it becomes a matter of proud to me which makes my country more diverse,for eg.India where you have several cutures with different languages.
but as I said since its your own view and it has been done because perhaps it was your country's policy to bring peace so nothing much to say.


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## hillman32

*If aksai chin was part of Kashmir

So amritsar and haryana are part of Punjab whose capital was Lahore so you intend giving us the Eastern Punjab on same premise.*


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## Hyde

Indian Jatt said:


> ok I take it as your personal opinion since different people think diffrenetly.
> In my opinion I would not give any part of my homeland.I am sure if it was a Chinese land,then they wont give their land as well.
> A true friend does not need to be offered land to make them trust me and if the people of that region are not common with us or their language not similar to us then it becomes a matter of proud to me which makes my country more diverse,for eg.India where you have several cutures with different languages.
> but as I said since its your own view and it has been done because perhaps it was your country's policy so nothing to say.


well as i said before we resolved all our problems with china in 1962 or 1963 and that includes Aksai Chin. It was a give and take system where if i am not wrong we were given some part of Himalayas and in return we accepted Aksai chin as an integral part of china.

We all know we could not fight with two nations (India and China) at a time considering our poor country who was only 15 year old by that time with no industrial hub or economic backbone whatsoever. China had offered us some really lurative packages that includes some parts of Karakoram ranges, all kind of land dispute was to be resolved, lot of investment in Pakistan for the first time, and defence industries (like Bangladesh ordinance factory established in Dhaka before the fall of Bangladesh) and the list is very long and in return we had to compromise on Aksai chin region only.

Look at the broader version of the picture it was not only a solution of Aksai chin but they helped us stand on our feet those days and also give us some part of land in exchange so that we do not come up with another dispute afterwards. It was a well thought plan and both countries enjoying a brotherly like friendship even today thanks to their peaceful resolutions

Hopefully my last post here


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## Aslan

truefriend said:


> this suits u batter



No it dont as I am not the one trying to prove his stupid point of view. And try to come up with something better, at least try to be original.


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## EjazR

The thread was about aksai chin not the karakoram valley that AG Noorani is talking about. Besides his research is based on Chinese maps not the British ones.

He is claiming that according to CHINESE maps that China ceded territory to Pakistan i.e. China was claiming almost the top half of J&K included the Indian side.

While according to the British maps, its Pakistan that ceded territory. Now that would mean like saying that the Durran line is not valid because the British drew up that line. If the Durran line is valid so is the British maps for J&K which were signed by the then muslim ruler of Sinkiang. This was then invaded by the Chinese and made part of present day China. They revoked the treaty citing that it was an unequal treaty signed by the British. Just like what Afghanistan claimed for the Durrand line. So AG Noorani is wrong or right depending on wether the Chinese maps or the British maps are wrong or right.

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## Aslan

truefriend said:


> u r the one who ask about killing of muslims in india .. im just want to know about your opinion in china also ....
> or u set double standards for this also



Dude i didnt start the off topic discussion your friend did. so why dont you go ask him about the rest of the accusations that he laid on Pakistan.


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## Aslan

The simple fact is that if Pakistan and china have no more disputes so if that involved giving up some land that is not of any use to us any ways so be it.


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## UnitedPak

truefriend said:


> i think you all dont know the full map of kashmir
> 
> and u need kashmir back only with india



There is a good reason why Pakistan pushes for a referendum in the region and thats because Pakistanis have no interest in occupying people who dont want to be part of Pakistan (Something Indians dont understand and this thread proves it).

I have no problem accepting that Jammu and East Ladakh are unlikely to cede to Pakistan in the event of a referendum taking place and its only fair everyone in the region has a say.

This is why serious talks are important in solving this dispute, something Pak and China got out of the way (and look at their relations today) and I am not sure who ceded land to whom but it proves an important point that these disputes should never be about land alone. There is nothing wrong with admitting that the Tibetan people of Aksai Chin might have no interest in joining Pakistan or India, so why claim *their* land?

I encourage Indians not to turn this into a number game and realise the importance and fairness of serious talks and a referendum.

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## JonAsad

IF Indians are clever they would have understood by now that Pakistan and China are best friends because we solved our disputes half a century ago..

Thats a Big IF...


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## Jazzbot

Isaq Khan said:


> Also in India there are courts that take cares of the justice.



yeah like they justified mass killings of Muslims in Hyderabad and demolition of Babri Msjid and all other killings of Sikhs and Christians by Hundu extremists... People like Modi and other Hindu Extremists are above all of your courts..

what Justice and Courts you are talking about mate..?

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## truefriend

UnitedPak said:


> There is a good reason why Pakistan pushes for a referendum in the region and thats because Pakistanis have no interest in occupying people who dont want to be part of Pakistan (Something Indians dont understand and this thread proves it).
> 
> I have no problem accepting that Jammu and East Ladakh are unlikely to cede to Pakistan in the event of a referendum taking place and its only fair everyone in the region has a say.
> 
> This is why serious talks are important in solving this dispute, something Pak and China got out of the way (and look at their relations today) and I am not sure who ceded land to whom but it proves an important point that these disputes should never be about land alone. There is nothing wrong with admitting that the Tibetan people of Aksai Chin might have no interest in joining Pakistan or India, so why claim *their* land?
> 
> I encourage Indians not to turn this into a number game and realise the importance and fairness of serious talks and a referendum.





so with reference your article tibet people also dont want to be a part of china ... so r your country take side for them ???
again double standard shows here

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## Aslan

truefriend said:


> so with reference your article tibet people also dont want to be a part of china ... so r your country take side for them ???
> again double standard shows here



Dude are you slow or something. Next you will tell us that the Irish dont want to stay with the British so we should side with them as well. Who do you think we are sari dunya kay thekaydaar. Grow up dude.


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## nakodo

UnitedPak said:


> Pakistanis have no interest in occupying people who dont want to be part of Pakistan



How come you walked all over Afghanistan with the Taliban? More like a bully who will opportunistically seize a weaker kid's lunch but wont mess with some one that can break your bones.

And what about people here calling for Gajwaehind?



> I am not sure who ceded land to whom



India-China Border Dispute

India won&#8217;t give up claim: FM: Land ceded by Pakistan to China -DAWN - Top Stories; December 15, 2006


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## JonAsad

truefriend said:


> so with reference your article tibet people also dont want to be a part of china ... so r your country take side for them ???
> again double standard shows here



truefriend you are talking lot about double standards as if you dont follow these standards..

you are talking about tibet ppl but ell me do Kashmiri ppl want to be with you? then why you holding their land..

you are a emo double standard kinda guy, u know what that is.. dont you

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## Aslan

nakodo said:


> How come you walked all over Afghanistan with the Taliban? More like a bully who will opportunistically seize a weaker kid's lunch but wont mess with some one that can break your bones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India-China Border Dispute
> 
> India wont give up claim: FM: Land ceded by Pakistan to China -DAWN - Top Stories; December 15, 2006




Just like you are doing in Afghanistan now. Off topic BS at best.


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## truefriend

khalidali said:


> Dude are you slow or something. Next you will tell us that the Irish dont want to stay with the British so we should side with them as well. Who do you think we are sari dunya kay thekaydaar. Grow up dude.





man grow up its not about sari duniya...its about owr neighbour on which u claim as your best friend ... 
it touches our border 
i think u cant accept truth


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## UnitedPak

nakodo said:


> How come you walked all over Afghanistan with the Taliban? More like a bully who will opportunistically seize a weaker kid's lunch but wont mess with some one that can break your bones.
> 
> 
> India-China Border Dispute
> 
> India wont give up claim: FM: Land ceded by Pakistan to China -DAWN - Top Stories; December 15, 2006



Ever heard of the Cold War?


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## Isaq Khan

UnitedPak said:


> There is a good reason why Pakistan pushes for a referendum in the region and thats because Pakistanis have no interest in occupying people who dont want to be part of Pakistan (Something Indians dont understand and this thread proves it).
> 
> I have no problem accepting that Jammu and East Ladakh are unlikely to cede to Pakistan in the event of a referendum taking place and its only fair everyone in the region has a say.
> 
> This is why serious talks are important in solving this dispute, something Pak and China got out of the way (and look at their relations today) and I am not sure who ceded land to whom but it proves an important point that these disputes should never be about land alone. There is nothing wrong with admitting that the Tibetan people of Aksai Chin might have no interest in joining Pakistan or India, so why claim *their* land?
> 
> I encourage Indians not to turn this into a number game and realise the importance and fairness of serious talks and a referendum.




1. As for referendum people of Jammu and Kashmir elects their own government from their own people to work for them.

2. If one takes whole referendum it should include Kashmir occupied by china, pakistan and J&K and the pakistani or Chinese who are not is real resident of Kashmir should be kept out of the referendum and its conducing activities.

3. As you have said about Jammu and Ladakh, you must remember that the referendum held for whole state not of every city or house who wanna go where.

Its not like Arman ali's house goes to pakistan and Rehman ali will stay in India. Its full Kashmir one side or the other.

As the population of Jammy+Ladakh is more than valley the referendum will have their impact and you will make hue and cry which will be not rue.

Also, people of valley don't wanna be with pakistan as with India they are developing or can move any part of India. India is where the future is, they can develop and become millionaire or study in one of the best institutes or join biggest companies. In India they have a fair chance to try their best.

What they will get in pakistan other than poverty and bomb blast.


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## truefriend

jonasad said:


> truefriend you are talking lot about double standards as if you dont follow these standards..
> 
> you are talking about tibet ppl but ell me do Kashmiri ppl want to be with you? then why you holding their land..
> 
> you are a emo double standard kinda guy, u know what that is.. dont you




what is the situation of people of your own pakistan occupied kashmires have 
what they want .


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## Hyde

jonasad said:


> truefriend you are talking lot about double standards as if you dont follow these standards..
> 
> you are talking about tibet ppl but ell me do Kashmiri ppl want to be with you? then why you holding their land..
> 
> you are a emo double standard kinda guy, u know what that is.. dont you



hahaha i was about to say that 

Does Kashmiri wants to live with you? as per pictures, videos and the interviews by the kashmiri leaders it does not seems so 

Double standards of India


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## JonAsad

nakodo said:


> How come you walked all over Afghanistan with the Taliban? More like a bully who will opportunistically seize a weaker kid's lunch but wont mess with some one that can break your bones.



Who is walking over afghanistan ?? Pakistan or America?? 

if you are refering to India as a guy who can break bones than let me remind you we are messing with you since your birth.. now wot does that makes you..


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## Aslan

nakodo said:


> What about the Marris and Mengals?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:28 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> precisely it was US vs USSR. Pakistan rode it's luck with somebody else. Opportunist. How did Pakistan realise the people of Aksai Chin wanted to join China? Why not start an insurgency there too? That way you can press the UN for action. Do more.



So now you are riding them as well, have a nice ride.


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## gogbot

truefriend said:


> i think you all dont know the full map of kashmir
> 
> and u need kashmir back only with india



I am inclined to agree.











Map of Kashmir from Pak supportive rupee news

Indian Occupied Kashmiris want Dogra state for Jammu Hindus Rupee News



Map of Pakistan 



Supposed map of future Pakistan , from on-line warrior






What ever you want to say , India lost control of Aksai Chin in a Battle against China.

So Kashmir as it was can never be formed for a Muslims , as Part of it now belongs to China.

You simply have to accept the fact that Kashmir is a political squabble and as such there have to to be compromises , such as giving nearly 1/4 of Kashmir to China.

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## UnitedPak

nakodo said:


> What about the Marris and Mengals?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:28 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> precisely it was US vs USSR. Pakistan rode it's luck with somebody else. Opportunist.



I wont entertain your trolling attempts and derail the topic, but consider reading a book or two about the cold war.


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## Aslan

truefriend said:


> man grow up its not about sari duniya...its about owr neighbour on which u claim as your best friend ...
> it touches our border
> i think u cant accept truth


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## JonAsad

truefriend said:


> what is the situation of people of your own pakistan occupied kashmires have
> what they want .



now mate for this issue you wana go back and forth .. but for aksai chin you have your mouth glued on only one conclusion... Hypocracy at its best

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## truefriend

jonasad said:


> now mate for this issue you wana go back and forth .. but for aksai chin you have your mouth glued on only one conclusion... Hypocracy at its best




u say a lot for muslims situation 
tell me situation of muslime in china .... or your mouth glued????

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## Materialistic

Its all a troll, you guys are just bringing up reasons to keep twisting the things. Let others be out of situtation and we better talk about the things of concern. Indian members don't ask Pakistan about our stance on what is happening to muslims in China or any other place. You better take care of what is happening to them in India. 

Even the Pakistani members here talk only about Muslims of Kashmir and not the Muslims belonging to India, their conditions only come into discussion as a counter fact when and where relevant and required. So this makes no sense that Pakistan is having any double standards or Pakistan needs to raise voice over China's internal affairs regarding Muslims.

Pakistan talks about kashmir because kashmiri people want to be part of Pakistan and India is sitting in their lands forcefully. If India was welcomed in any way then *India had not sent* *700,000 troops for 60+ years. 
*
*And even if as per Indian claims Pakistan was fueling freedom fighters in Kashmir and there was no such intent from kashmiris themselves then 60 years is a lot of time to put down such strategies. And Even if Pakistan did so then what ??? India DID THE SAME IN CASE OF BANGLADESH AND PROUDLY CLAIMS IT TOO.*

*Askai Chin!!!!!* By the name, culture and heritage one can say that this was part of China and Is and should be Part of China, We are not running after others just to grab their lands. 

How can Pakistan claim Tibetan people to be part of Pakistan, unlike India. We talk sense. 

*Regarding Trolls of Double Standard of Pakistan*

This is not double standard this is something far higher then the mental approach of you people. Because all you know is to make excuses no matter how senseless and fight over things. 

But this is our Honest and Rational approach towards the matter. 

Every body in Asia knows that British messed up with our borders to keep us aimed at each other. They added Chinese bit to India and they din't let Kashmiris (the bit that was to go In Pakistan) an opportunity to show their opinion and kept them under Indian control.

Same they did with Askai Chin region and when we know that this region belonged to China then why cry over it !!!!! 

*Is there any cry in regions of Askai Chin or Azad Kashmir for freedom or any one ever asked for freedom even in a Whisper or any hint of people's wish to merge with India ???? *

*In 1947 it was about where people want to live rather than where they belong to now. So even if they belonged to India on its self calims it makes no sense.
This is enough as a proof that WHO is claiming lands of its neighbours.*

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## FreekiN

Aksai Chin is mainly uninhabitated. The population [if any] is dominated by Buddhists. 

The region is almost uninhabited, has no permanent settlements, and receives little precipitation as the Himalayan and other mountains block the rains from the Indian monsoon.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

As pointed out, Aksai Chen is largely barren and unpopulated land, and Pakistan came to an agreement with China on the issue given that at the time Pakistan was in control of the land. 

That agreement does state that in case of the implementation of the UNSC resolutions and a decision by the people of J&K to accede to India, China would open negotiations with India on the status of the land.


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## third eye

Reproduced below is article 6 of the treaty..

Article 6


The two parties have agreed that after the settlement of the Kashmir dispute between Pakistan and India, the sovereign authority concerned will reopen negotiations with the Government of the People&#8217;s Republic of China on the boundary as described in Article. Two of the present agreement, so as to sign a formal boundary treaty to replace the present agreement, *provided that in the event of the sovereign authority being Pakistan,* the provisions of the present agreement and of the aforesaid protocol shall be maintained in the formal boundary treaty to be signed between the People&#8217;s Republic of China and Pakistan.

The entire treaty is here :

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&so...mPiPBw&usg=AFQjCNFSBpBwPRMIkc5kGB97V5n89_fRlA

Its so simple to sign away something you never owned nor ever will !

Its like Mush's suggestion of dividing J&K !!


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## haawk

Zaki said:


> we resolved this dispute back in 1962 and agreed that Akshai Chin is an integral part of China thus we no longer have any border disputes with China and that laid the key foundations of friendship of Pakistan and China. Before we had recognized china but our relationships were not as trust worthy as they became after this dispute was peacefully resolved.
> 
> In simple words we think its a part of China and we have not claimed to be a disputed area



so the kashmiris whose freedom your nation is supposedly fighting for are fools .....and you can just give away their land to any one just because you wanna be friends with some one .....


its like stealing some one else candy and giving it to a stronger guy to make friends with him.....so that he may come to help you when you want to fight with a guy stronger than you.......

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## Hyde

haawk said:


> so the kashmiris whose freedom your nation is supposedly fighting for are fools .....and you can just give away their land to any one just because you wanna be friends with some one .....
> 
> 
> its like stealing some one else candy and giving it to a stronger guy to make friends with him.....so that he may come to help you when you want to fight with a guy stronger than you.......


I don't understand why some indians creating a fuss like MY KASHMIR MY KASHMIR - Please do not forget its a disputed area. I was giving my opinion as a nuteral person otherwise i wouldn't even want to see 1 inch of Kashmir going away from Pakistan. But i do know this matter is never going to be resolved if both or either sides are not going relent on this issue.

Kashmir is still a dispute area and we have every right to decide about its fate as much Indians claims to be and what really is there in Aksai Chin? ever bothered to read about Aksai chin?

@ Your question

Read my previous posts on page 1 and page 2


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## JonAsad

AgNoStIc MuSliM if you want to delete my posts fine.. but atleast also delete the question i was answering too.. Cheers


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## Marxist

Former Pakistan Foreign Minister Khursheed Mehmood Kasuri has revealed that India and Pakistan, through back-channel diplomacy, had evolved an 'interim' agreement on the Kashmir issue, and that it was subject to review after 15 years.

Kasuri said that both New Delhi and Islamabad, while working out the agreement, had realised that in view of the long standing dispute over Kashmir, none of the solutions that they evolve would resolve the issue, so the 'interim' agreement was the best possible solution available under circumstances at that time.

"We were aware of the fact that there would be an overwhelming support for this agreement; but we also realised that there would be criticism from some sections in Kashmir, Pakistan and India," Kasuri told The News, on the sidelines of 'Aman Ki Asha' - a joint peace initiative by the Jang Group of Pakistan and The Times of India.

He said it was decided that after the implementation of the said agreement, it would be monitored by all concerned parties, so that improvements could be made.

Kasuri claimed that both countries had conducted secret negotiations with all stakeholders because they wanted to avoid any spins or leaks, which could damage the level of trust between the parties.

"They could not have signed an agreement without authorisation from their respective cabinets and parliaments. The whole idea was to produce a draft which the governments of Pakistan and India felt would be acceptable to the large majority of Kashmiris, Pakistanis and Indians," he added

Referring to allegations from religio-political parties from across the border, that the proposed agreement was an attempt to sell out Kashmir, Kasuri said the basis of the agreement was the assumption that India and Pakistan had tried everything in their power to enforce their own versions of settlement on Kashmir issue.

"They have fought five wars, including two minor ones in the Rann of Katch and Kargil. There have been various mobilisations of troops, including the largest one since First World War (Operation Parakram), in which one million soldiers remained eyeball-to-eyeball for almost a year," he added.

Kasuri also noted that since both the neighbouring countries have acquired nuclear power, a full-scale war between them is nearly impossible.

Backing Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani's statement that efforts were being made through the back-channel diplomacy to resolve all outstanding issues with India, the former foreign minister said it was important that negotiations be resumed because Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh's government with which Islamabad negotiated the arrangement was still in power.

"And the BJP the other majority party had started the process during the tenure of former Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee," he added. (ANI)

http://sify.com/news/india-pak-inte...rs-kasuri-news-international-ke2luedhihf.html

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=28528


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## third eye

Any agreement on J&K made by GOI which either does not formalise the existing positions or more will cause an uncontrollable uproar and play into the hands of the opposition.


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## Stumper

third eye said:


> Any agreement on J&K made by GOI which either does not formalise the existing positions or more will cause an uncontrollable uproar and play into the hands of the opposition.



Not just uproar ..... congress would have gifted opposition a victory on platter. How do you explain a compromise to your joe's & jane's!

None the less , GoI should take the composite dialog further. Not engaging with a democratic government NOW might be a folly considering that it also has the backing of Pak's army leadership .

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## dabong1

Stumper said:


> Not just uproar ..... congress would have gifted opposition a victory on platter. How do you explain a compromise to your joe's & jane's!.



Or it could have given victory to congress for sorting the kashmir problem out.

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## Jade

dabong1 said:


> Or it could have given victory to congress for sorting the kashmir problem out.



Sorting the Kashmir problem has different connotations for Indians and for Pakistanis. The connotations need not be similar.


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## third eye

Stumper said:


> Not just uproar ..... congress would have gifted opposition a victory on platter. How do you explain a compromise to your joe's & jane's!
> 
> None the less , GoI should take the composite dialog further. Not engaging with a democratic government NOW might be a folly considering that it also has the backing of Pak's army leadership .



I do not consider it to be a folly.

India's foreign policy has remained consistent irrespective of the party in power. The reason for discontinuance of dialogue were / are clear. Starting them without any change on the ground would imply that either India was wrong then or wrong now.

I agree that it would amount to gifting the next election and committing hara kiri politically.

Next , it makes no diff whose govt there is in Islamabad - the Army & ISI always calls the shots. One need not get taken in by democracy there which in any case is only toe deep & is surviving coz US wants it that way.


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## truefriend

Zaki said:


> hahaha i was about to say that
> 
> Does Kashmiri wants to live with you? as per pictures, videos and the interviews by the kashmiri leaders it does not seems so
> 
> Double standards of India




jammu and kashmir in india is open for all every one put their viiew..
not like pakistan occupied kashmir where only ak47 speaks 
thts the diffrence 
but u dont want to understand 
its ok


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## Hyde

truefriend said:


> jammu and kashmir in india is open for all every one put their viiew..
> not like pakistan occupied kashmir where only ak47 speaks
> thts the diffrence
> but u dont want to understand
> its ok



yes you being an indian and reading nothing but Indian news channels can say that........... i agree with you 

But unfortunately no other countries except India can agree with your statement........ not even US...... 

that is because we did not feel like opening Azad Kashmir as it was never closed for any kind of activities. Peoples in Azad Kashmir are/was Pakistanis and living in all parts of Pakistan speaking same language, same culture and same religion so they did not feel like a stranger ever so we did not need to closing anything........... We did not need to hold guns like other part of Kashmir and we don't see curfew like I.O.K 

*you are right i must say you are right...... according to India news channels if banana is Apple - Its apple for all Indians*...

Get back to topic now


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## truefriend

Zaki said:


> yes you being an indian and reading nothing but Indian news channels can say that........... i agree with you
> 
> But unfortunately no other countries except India can agree with your statement........ not even US......
> 
> that is because we did not feel like opening Azad Kashmir as it was never closed for any kind of activities. Peoples in Azad Kashmir are/was Pakistanis and living in all parts of Pakistan speaking same language, same culture and same religion so they did not feel like a stranger ever so we did not need to closing anything........... We did not need to hold guns like other part of Kashmir and we don't see curfew like I.O.K
> 
> *you are right i must say you are right...... according to India news channels if banana is Apple - Its apple for all Indians*...
> 
> Get back to topic now



On September 14, 1994, the Supreme Court of Pakistan-administered Kashmir ruled that "the Northern areas are a part of J&K State but are not a part of Azad J&K as defined in the Interim Constitution Act 1974"[16]. The Northern Areas presently has no officially named status in Pakistan. Pakistan does not consider this area as a "province" of Pakistan or as a part of "Azad Kashmir". They are ruled directly from Islamabad through a Northern Areas Council. A chief executive (usually a retired Pakistani army officer), appointed by Islamabad is the local administrative head.[17] This area presently has no representatives in both the Azad Kashmir Assembly and in Pakistans parliament. Northern Areas Legislative Council was created with a membership of 29 (later increased to 32) , but its powers are restricted. On May 11, 2007 the NAs chief executive, who also happens to be the Minister for Kashmir Affairs and Northern Areas Affairs, declared that the region had a right to be represented in the National Assembly. Others demand that it should be given the status of a province. The changes made in 1994 in the local bodies ordinance gave more representation to women and delegated some administrative and financial powers to the local administration. However, the people of the region do not enjoy fundamental rights, because it continues to be governed by the Legal Framework Order of 1994

they have no power POKs assembly is just a show off infront of people

when *** is open for all

Pakistan-administered Kashmir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Hyde

Don't destroy the thread - go and talk about this issue on another dedicated thread on Kashmir -We shall wait for you......... repeat this question there

In simple words - all the rights have been given to local bodies and we don't have any movement for independance in Azad Kashmir like Indian side of Kashmir. 

The reason why Kashmir is not another province of Pakistan - i will say there in its dedicated thread to avoid further discussion here


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## truefriend

Zaki said:


> Don't destroy the thread - go and talk about this issue on another dedicated thread on Kashmir -We shall wait for you......... repeat this question there
> 
> In simple words - all the rights have been given to local bodies and we don't have any movement for independance in Azad Kashmir like Indian side of Kashmir.
> 
> The reason why Kashmir is not another province of Pakistan - i will say there in its dedicated thread to avoid further discussion here



go and check post no 38


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## Hyde

truefriend said:


> go and check post no 38



Post 38 was on topic considering previous posts in mind............. here its not the same case........... talking a little is fine but no need to divert the whole issue. We have dedicated thread in this regard just discuss all relevent issues in the following thread

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/20220-future-kashmir-seven-possible-solutions-62.html


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## truefriend

Zaki said:


> Post 38 was on topic considering previous posts in mind............. here its not the same case........... talking a little is fine but no need to divert the whole issue. We have dedicated thread in this regard just discuss all relevent issues in the following thread
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/20220-future-kashmir-seven-possible-solutions-62.html[/QUOTE
> 
> so i think we have to start a new thread @people of pak occupied kashmir are happy or j&ks of india@


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

I do not think this would have happened. Kashmir was like any other state in the British Raj except that it had been sold. Kashmir has been a part of Pakistan for thousands of years, and independent Kashmir would sadden me in ways aswell.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

IBRIS said:


> So, what is the body count of kashmiri's who were the victims of cross border infiltrators terrorist bombings all in and around kashmir. "TALEE EK HAATH NAA NAYI WAJDEE".




Again, please stop smoking what you are smoking. Gold Leaf is a better alternative to the banned substances you are usingAlso, there has never been a proved case of the Pakistani Army fighting in J&K, with exception of Kargil.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

intelarpit said:


> I can give you a better explanation
> 
> We have Pakistan at LoC and they can play mischief(like kargil).....to kick them we have 700000 soldiers and we are planning to raise these number to 100000....moreover we have some 100000 BSF guys also there



What about when the Indian Army crossed the LoC and beheaded some civilians in 2002-3? Also, please note that the Indian army has taken part in Skirmishes aswell.


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## EjazR

*Western Blue Print for Kashmir by Mohammad Ashraf*

*Mohammad Ashraf
Former Director General, Department of Tourism, J&K*


The Anglo-American Block has started showing renewed interest in the solution of the Kashmir dispute. Robert Blake, the US Assistant Secretary of State for Central and South Asian Affairs, revealed to the media that there already exists a Blue Print for the solution of the Kashmir dispute. According to him this Blue Print had been discussed and an agreement was reached between the contending parties but it still had to be endorsed. However, he did not disclose the exact details of the Blue Print. According to him Kashmir figures prominently in every discussion. He rejected the often quoted premise that it is impossible for India and Pakistan to make progress. He stated that both countries had made significant progress towards resolving the issue during the period of 2004 to 2007.

Most probably, Robert Blake was referring to General Musharrafs four-point formula. The formula itself may have originated in the west? In fact, the famous journalist Kuldip Nayar also mentioned the Blue Print in an article in The Tribune in November 2004, after a meeting with General Musharraf. The Western Powers especially the Anglo-American Block have been preparing Blue Prints for the Kashmir solution right from 1948. Based on some documents de-classified after 60 years, Rakesh Ankit published a research paper last year, The Cold War and its Impact on the Evolution of the Kashmir Crisis, 1947-48 in the Journal of the Oxford University History Society. According to him, Power Politics made a large contribution to the evolution of the Kashmir crisis. He states that while the dispute emerged for local, regional and religious reasons; its evolution and eventual internationalization bears the stamp of concerns which had nothing to do with the individuality of the crisis and the merits of the cases of the two protagonists. He concludes that once the crisis erupted it was manipulated by the British-led Western Block, as far as possible, in the pursuit of its own vital interests stretching from the Middle East to Central Asia to the Far East. These vital interests are categorized by him as defensive, strategic and geo-political (aimed at the former Communist USSR) and ideological or religious (aimed at the Islamic Middle East). In fact, Rakesh has quoted an extract from Bevins letter to Marshall which states, Kashmir was on the Soviet frontier. Russia might well intervene as she had in Greece and China, playing on the tribes and on communal feeling. Whoever controlled the valley of Kashmir controlled the strategic and commercial communications between India, Pakistan and Central Asia.

The main western interest was the access to Central Asia and containment of Communist Russia. A number of American and British strategists opined that Pakistan would be more useful to them than India as they could manipulate its rulers easily. In fact, it was decided in a meeting held in Paris between Bevin and Marshall that the Anglo-American interests would best be served by keeping the Kashmir corridor passing through Gilgit with Pakistan as India could create problems. The ceasefire and the extent of areas under each country were also decided by Western powers as both armies at that time were controlled by the British Officers. The American and British strategists advised their respective Governments that Pakistan would be a better choice for them to back. They were also apprehensive that India would wipe out Pakistan unless the West came to its assistance in a big way.

The global strategic priorities have changed now. Russia is no longer a threat it used to be for the West. However, new centres of power and alliances have developed which have made the famous Kashmir corridor more important now, such as the emergence of China as a super power and an economic giant. The break up of the Soviet Union and the emergence of a number of independent Central Asian countries with extensive energy resources have made the Anglo-American block shift their focus towards this area. This has prompted them to design newer Blue Prints to safeguard their primary interests. Their aim now is to contain China and have a grip over Central Asian energy. One fails to understand why we always look toward the West to give us a nudge in settling our disputes? The best initiative is for the inhabitants of the sub-continent, the Indians, Pakistanis, and the Kashmiris to work out a Blue Print which can bring peace to the area. It is a pity that in spite of our past experience we continue to look westward for a solution. Unless we sincerely realize this and take our own initiative, we will put future generations in perpetual bondage of the West.


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## KS

Azad Kashmir said:


> What about when the Indian Army crossed the LoC and beheaded some civilians in 2002-3?



Any neutral source to back ur claim..?


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## KS

Azad Kashmir said:


> Kashmir has been a part of Pakistan for thousands of years



Chill dude ....Pakistan itself had been there only for 62 years and u ve gone as far as to say Kashmir was part of it for 1000 years.



Azad Kashmir said:


> and independent Kashmir would sadden me in ways aswell.



True intentions coming out..isnt it..?


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## KS

dabong1 said:


> Or it could have given victory to congress for sorting the kashmir problem out.



victory to the congress from a Pakistani POV..

But anything involving a loss of even a square inch of Indian land would be *political suicide from Indian point of view*....


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## kugga

I don't know why india is so reluctant to resolve the issue its just simple hold referendum and the let the kashmiris decide what they want..... bs that's it

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## Forrest Griffin

Karthic Sri said:


> Chill dude ....Pakistan itself had been there only for 62 years and u ve gone as far as to say Kashmir was part of it for 1000 years.
> 
> 
> 
> True intentions coming out..isnt it..?



Don't kid yourself india itself has been there for only 62 years also.


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## Bang Galore

A pity that it didn't happen in Musharraf's time. He gets a lot of bad press in Pakistan and was seen as a villain in India for his role in Kargil and while he deserves that, he did make some serious efforts towards peace in the later years of his administration. Also as chief of the army, he would have pretty much committed the army to the deal something which will be seen as a stumbling block with the present dispensation.

This is pretty much the only deal that India will ever be agreeable to (loose borders, more autonomy). The longer it takes to get there, the more time we are stuck with all this hatred.


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## Forrest Griffin

india should relinquish Kashmir control and let Kashmir become part of Pakistan. Kashmiris *want* to be apart of Pakistan and *do not* want to be apart of india.


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## Prometheus

Srinagar: *Shafiq Ahmad Sheikh had nothing to do with the protesters who were throwing stones at the bus in which he was travelling in Srinagar. *That didn't help--a stone hit Sheikh on his head and he died later on Friday.
Sheikh, 40, came under attack when a group of young men started throwing stones at the bus in Batmaloo in central Srinagar, police said. He was taken to a hospital where he died, said police.

The protesters were throwing stones in support of Syed Ali Geelani, the separatist leader who is under house arrest and has been prevented from taking out a march to the UN office in the state capital.




Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah blamed Geelani, who heads the hardline faction of Hurriyat Conference, for Sheikhs death.
Any right-thinking person would condemn this death unequivocally. This is an unnecessary death brought about by unnecessary timetable of protests announced Geelani. He is singularly responsible for this death today, Abdullah told CNN-IBN.
It is only the result of Geelanis Friday calendar of protests that he has announced that this innocent has died. If he (Geelani) he had not announced these protests I can assure you that not stone pelting would have taken place, said Abdullah.
PTI adds an *11-day child died on February 22 this year when he fell from his mothers arms during an attack on a mini-bus by a group of protestors in Baramulla *district.Srinagar protesters' stones kill innocent - India - ibnlive


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## Prometheus

kugga said:


> I don't know why india is so reluctant to resolve the issue its just simple hold referendum and the let the kashmiris decide what they want..... bs that's it



*kashmir is integral part of India*
end of dispute

you are rite by saying that India doesnot want to resolve Kashmir issue.
India also dont want to resolve other issues like saichen, water, sir chreek etc.

because India is not gonna benefit from this.
pakistan is gonna be in gain not India

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## graphican

This is an unfortunate incident that a 11 days old baby passed away.. but who was that 11 years old baby going to become? A surviver under Indian occupation? I pray that 11 years old baby had survived so he could have joined those protesters and had acted against occupying forces under Indian uniform.


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## graphican

Prometheus said:


> *kashmir is integral part of India*
> end of dispute
> 
> you are rite by saying that India doesnot want to resolve Kashmir issue.
> India also dont want to resolve other issues like saichen, water, sir chreek etc.
> 
> because India is not gonna benefit from this.
> pakistan is gonna be in gain not India



Good thinking my friend we need more people like you in India and at the top positions. You are thinking about piece of land not residents of the land. Pandit Nehru was one like you and he did the job for Muslims. People with the same mindset are only going to help those factors who want to see India broken. Even Paksitan has seen the result of this mindset and we got a portion of our country got separated. Are you sure you with your current mindset are ready to face this destiny? Yet again?


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## Prometheus

graphican said:


> Good thinking my friend we need more people like you in India and at the top positions. You are thinking about piece of land not residents of the land. Pandit Nehru was one like you and he did the job for Muslims. People with the same mindset are only going to help those factors who want to see India broken. Even Paksitan has seen the result of this mindset and we got a portion of our country got separated. Are you sure you with your current mindset are ready to face this destiny? Yet again?



great answer my best friend...............

My answer............I am neither a pandit nor a hindu.( no need to bring partition into it, How many threads we need bro)

have a good day


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## Dr.Evil

The only dispute we have is about the * kashmir under illegal occupation of pakistan*, As soon as that part is given back to India then we have no dispute.

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## Prometheus

graphican said:


> This is an unfortunate incident that a 11 days old baby passed away.. but who was that 11 years old baby going to become? A surviver under Indian occupation? I pray that 11 years old baby had survived so he could have joined those protesters and had acted against occupying forces under Indian uniform.



well , I hope her mother just wants her son back.


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## Prometheus

@graphican

Bro, can you tell me what India is gonna gain if Kashmir issue is resolved???.

What I said is true............India is going to be loser.............who wants to be a loser in this world

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## brahmastra

graphican said:


> This is an unfortunate incident that a 11 days old baby passed away.. but who was that 11 years old baby going to become? A surviver under Indian occupation? I pray that 11 years old baby had survived so he could have joined those protesters and had acted against occupying forces under Indian uniform.



Intelligent trolling... but its still trolling...

he could have become doctor,engineer,IAS,IPS etc, why would he become paid stone thrower...

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## thebrownguy

brahmastra said:


> Intelligent trolling... but its still trolling...
> 
> he could have become doctor,engineer,IAS,IPS etc, why would he become paid stone thrower...



So that he serves Pakistani interest of disrupting peace in the valley.


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## Prometheus

@graphican

Is this type of stone throwing protest OK which throws stones on buses , mini-vans etc and kills Innocent Kashmiris???

I hope not!!


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## KS

Forrest Griffin said:


> Don't kid yourself india itself has been there for only 62 years also.



Agreed..india as india was there only for 62 years.But India as Bharat was there for thousands of years.



Forrest Griffin said:


> india should relinquish Kashmir control and let Kashmir become part of Pakistan. Kashmiris want to be apart of Pakistan and do not want to be apart of india.



says who..?


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## kugga

Dr.Evil said:


> The only dispute we have is about the * kashmir under illegal occupation of pakistan*, As soon as that part is given back to India then we have no dispute.



It is very simple have a refrendum in AJK if they want to join India I think Pakistan should allow this but there must be a referendum in IOK also.

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## harish

Bang Galore said:


> This is pretty much the only deal that India will ever be agreeable to (loose borders, more autonomy). The longer it takes to get there, the more time we are stuck with all this hatred.



Kashmir already has more autonomy than any non-Kashmiri Indian wants it to have. What's the deal here? Its one of our states yet other Indians cannot own/buy land there. Why? Why are we delaying the return of Hindu Pandits back to their ancestral land, enforced and protected at the end of the barrel of a gun if need be? Are they not Kashmiris too? Are they not Indian? If people think that the hatred will end with the mutually acceptable resolution of Kashmir, if at all such a thing is ever at all possible, then it is being naive in the extreme. The hatred was there before Kashmir. It will remain long after it. Hatred does not kill any Indian. Bullets and knives and swords and bombs do. We need to solve that 'issue' first. As far as India is concerned, there is no other 'issue'.


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## Jade

Forrest Griffin said:


> india should relinquish Kashmir control and let Kashmir become part of Pakistan. Kashmiris *want* to be apart of Pakistan and *do not* want to be apart of india.



Speak on your behalf and not on behalf of Kashmiris


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## Prometheus

SRINAGAR: The population of a rare mountain goat has steadily increased after a ceasefire agreed between the Indian and Pakistani armies in 2003 along the disputed Kashmir border that runs through the goat's habitat.

The markhor (Capra falconeri) was scared away or fell victim to regular artillery duels between Indian and Pakistani troops along the LoC and had not been seen for years before the truce was declared, wildlife officials say.

The markhor, sporting a shaggy winter coat ranging from light brown to black, is the world's largest species of goat with trademark spiralling horns that can grow more than a metre long. That also makes the animal prized for traditional Asian medicine.

The recent and the first authentic census in Qazinag park shows the presence of at least 300 animals. This is a very significant number, said Abdul Rauf Zargar, a wildlife warden responsible for the high-altitude markhor sanctuary.

A 2005 survey by wildlife experts sighted only 115 markhors in the area.

One of the main reasons behind the markhor's comeback is peace on the border, Zargar said.

I am sure on the other side of the LoC (Pakistani Kashmir), the population has also increased. Now the only worry about the markhor's future is the electrified fence along the LoC.

The Indian army built a three-metre-high (10 feet) barbed wire fence along much of the LoC to stop incursions of separatists from Pakistani-administered Kashmir. The fence passes through the markhor's natural habitat.

The goat lives in semi-arid cliffside mountain areas of India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan. Hunted for its horns, hoofs and meat for years, it is listed as endangered by wildlife conservation groups.

DAWN.COM | Sci-Tech | India-Pakistan border truce helps rare Kashmir goat

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## FreekiN

jade1982 said:


> Speak on your behalf and not on behalf of Kashmiris



I'm at school right now. Indian side of Kashmir friend here.

He says forst is right


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## RobbieS

FreekiN said:


> I'm at school right now. Indian side of Kashmir friend here.
> 
> He says forst is right



Great! That definitely decides it then. Stupid people fighting over Kashmir. We just had to ask your friend you see, and we could have avoided all this bloodshed. Grow up, kiddo.


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## Forrest Griffin

jade1982 said:


> Speak on your behalf and not on behalf of Kashmiris



No Kashmiri wants to be apart of a hindu nation.  And you cannot prove otherwise.


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## thebrownguy

Forrest Griffin said:


> No Kashmiri wants to be apart of a hindu nation.  And you cannot prove otherwise.



India is not a "Hindu" nation. We don't have a state religion.


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## Forrest Griffin

Karthic Sri said:


> Agreed..india as india was there only for 62 years.But India as Bharat was there for thousands of years.



Yeah and Pakistan was there before the Universe was even formed.



Karthic Sri said:


> says who..?


Kashmiris said.


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## Forrest Griffin

thebrownguy said:


> India is not a "Hindu" nation. We don't have a state religion.



OK a hindu majority nation.


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## thebrownguy

FreekiN said:


> I'm at school right now. Indian side of Kashmir friend here.
> 
> He says forst is right



Tell him, we don't care what a bunch of Kashmiris think. We are a democracy and decisions are based on majority, not on demands of a small group of people. If he wants he can come back and hurl rocks. But Nothing will change.

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## LCA Tejas

Forrest Griffin said:


> No Kashmiri wants to be apart of a hindu nation.  And you cannot prove otherwise.



Are we "Hindu Republic of India?" We are *Republic of India * , And Thats More than Enough to Settle you down


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## FreekiN

thebrownguy said:


> Tell him, we don't care what a bunch of Kashmiris think. We are a democracy and decisions are based on majority, not on demands of a small group of people. If he wants he can come back and hurl rocks. But Nothing will change.



Kashmir's fate resides in Kashmir's decision. Not some people who have absolutely nothing in common with them yet claim that its an 'integral part.' 

And if India is so 'democratic' then go ahead and put up a 'democratic' vote of Kashmirs fate. We'll see if 'nothing will change.'


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## James007

FreekiN said:


> Kashmir's fate resides in Kashmir's decision. Not some people who have absolutely nothing in common with them yet claim that its an 'integral part.'
> 
> And if India is so 'democratic' then go ahead and put up a 'democratic' vote of Kashmirs fate. We'll see if 'nothing will change.'



there is already nc-cong elected govt there which is selected by people dude


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## Forrest Griffin

thebrownguy said:


> Tell him, we don't care what a bunch of Kashmiris think. We are a democracy and decisions are based on majority, not on demands of a small group of people. If he wants he can come back and hurl rocks. But Nothing will change.



nah dude no Kashmiri wants to be apart of india, I know it hurts but you indians need to accept it.


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## thebrownguy

Forrest Griffin said:


> nah dude no Kashmiri wants to be apart of india, I know it hurts but you indians need to accept it.



Dude, you missed the point. I know that no Kashmiri wants to be a prt of India. The small group i was referring to was the entire Kashmiri population. Its a small group if you talk about the entire Indian population.


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## LCA Tejas

Forrest Griffin said:


> nah dude no Kashmiri wants to be apart of india, I know it hurts but you indians need to accept it.



And Thats Non of your business at all.... So If at all there is any problem, its between The Govt and the separatists, So its not always wise to Sneak Peak and Comment without knowing whats happening in the neighbouring country.... You cant take words of some separatist, and You are no voice of Kashmiris either


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## thebrownguy

FreekiN said:


> Kashmir's fate resides in Kashmir's decision. Not some people who have absolutely nothing in common with them yet claim that its an 'integral part.'
> 
> And if India is so 'democratic' then go ahead and put up a 'democratic' vote of Kashmirs fate. We'll see if 'nothing will change.'



Kashmir is a part of India. It is one with the entire population. Let me explain in simple terms. If Kashmir votes on a particular issue, the whole nation votes with it. Simple. Thats the logic i am talking about


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## ARCHON

Solution??


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## Forrest Griffin

LCA Tejas said:


> And Thats Non of your business at all.... So If at all there is any problem, its between The Govt and the separatists, So its not always wise to Sneak Peak and Comment without knowing whats happening in the neighbouring country.... You cant take words of some separatist, and You are no voice of Kashmiris either



india nor you are the voice of Kashmiris. And since you do not know anything about what is happening on the ground over there you have no basis to speak for them. *And I will reiterate, no Kashmiri wants to be apart of india. * You indians are over there imposing your will on them and massacring them on a daily basis. *To date india has massacred over 70,000 Kashmiris*. What do you have to say to that? Jai Ho?  

And you are going to come here and tell me the Kashmiris want to join a state of ruthless murders.


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## James007

Forrest Griffin said:


> india nor you are the voice of Kashmiris. And since you do not know anything about what is happening on the ground over there you have no basis to speak for them. *And I will reiterate, no Kashmiri wants to be apart of india. * You indians are over there imposing your will on them and massacring them on a daily basis. *To date india has massacred over 70,000 Kashmiris*. What do you have to say to that? Jai Ho?
> 
> And you are going to come here and tell me the Kashmiris want to join a state of ruthless murders.



ok man just live few days in kashmir u will understand,i know this like  but i do believe that u shud wake up.when any innocent is killed by the terrorists,separatist keep silence.half truth is more dangerous than lie.its ur wish to choose any of the above


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## graphican

brahmastra said:


> Intelligent trolling... but its still trolling...
> 
> he could have become doctor,engineer,IAS,IPS etc, why would he become paid stone thrower...



If you think of Mahatma Gandhi should have been a Dental Doctor instead of freedom fighter than sure this baby child could have become something similar.


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## LCA Tejas

Forrest Griffin said:


> india nor you are the voice of Kashmiris. And since you do not know anything about what is happening on the ground over there you have no basis to speak for them. *And I will reiterate, no Kashmiri wants to be apart of india. * You indians are over there imposing your will on them and massacring them on a daily basis. *To date india has massacred over 70,000 Kashmiris*. What do you have to say to that? Jai Ho?
> 
> And you are going to come here and tell me the Kashmiris want to join a state of ruthless murders.



My country Hears My voice, And My Voice does Echo , And As long as Kashmir is a Part of My country I Can speak on behalf of It, And I very well Know whats happening in there More than You do, I spend Most of the time in Kashmir, Iam wind resource analyst Working closely with the MNRE Kashmir, There is no kashmiri Who wants to Be separate, there are some Separatists sponsored by Across the border who speak on behalf of all the Kashmiris... And Dont speak of a legacy you were not a part of.


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## graphican

Prometheus said:


> @graphican
> 
> Is this type of stone throwing protest OK which throws stones on buses , mini-vans etc and kills Innocent Kashmiris???
> 
> I hope not!!



Is firing of bullets in head and cutting limbs with knives by the occupying forces "okay"? I guess if stone throwing is matter of discontentment for you, you would like to say something stronger for the people who fire bullets in heads and cut libs, regardless of what uniform they wear and what belief system they follow. So what are your words for these devils?


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## James007

*If you think of Mahatma Gandhi should have been a Dental Doctor instead of freedom fighter than sure this baby child could have become something similar. 
*




mahatma gandhi was fighting 4 the whole nation,even b4 he completed his education.watever he was according to the demand of the country.how could u talk abt the kid who even cant recognize his parents.and who r u to decide their future,if he would have been alive he would have been serving his nation i.e india.
even those who were throwing stones are paid.they just need money not joining with pakistan


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## graphican

Prometheus said:


> @graphican
> 
> Is this type of stone throwing protest OK which throws stones on buses , mini-vans etc and kills Innocent Kashmiris???
> 
> I hope not!!

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## Forrest Griffin

what a bunch of lies. please grow a spine.


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## graphican

James007 said:


> *If you think of Mahatma Gandhi should have been a Dental Doctor instead of freedom fighter than sure this baby child could have become something similar.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mahatma gandhi was fighting 4 the whole nation,even b4 he completed his education.watever he was according to the demand of the country.how could u talk abt the kid who even cant recognize his parents.and who r u to decide their future,if* he would have been alive he would have been serving his nation i.e india.*
> even *those who were throwing stones are paid.they just need money not joining with pakistan*



That justifies involvement of students of Kashmir for the freedom fight as Mahatma had done the same. 

Sure, for all the love India offers, he must have been a very patriotic person. I agree with you. 

You have shown your logical limits with the last points. Thanks for posting.


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## LCA Tejas

Forrest Griffin said:


> what a bunch of lies. please grow a spine.



And How exactly do You know sitting safe inside where ever You are.. No body is Compelling you to believe me, Nor its my necessity to Make You Believe What I said, there are over 1billion people who would believe me, I am sorry, I cannot change facts Just to make You believe.


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## James007

they are getting the results simple...,u don't want to look those policemen or other security forces who gets injured due to these stone throwing people.don't look at one phase,bhai apney benifit ki mat socho,be update with other informations also.and frm the website where u get all this stuff,plz request the same to them also


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## Windjammer

James007 said:


> *If you think of Mahatma Gandhi should have been a Dental Doctor instead of freedom fighter than sure this baby child could have become something similar.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mahatma gandhi was fighting 4 the whole nation,even b4 he completed his education.watever he was according to the demand of the country.how could u talk abt the kid who even cant recognize his parents.and who r u to decide their future,if he would have been alive he would have been serving his nation i.e india.
> even those who were throwing stones are paid.they just need money not joining with pakistan



Yep, just like these kids............
Suppose they are receiving their pocket money from what ever.


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## graphican

brahmastra said:


> Intelligent trolling... but its still trolling...
> 
> he could have become doctor,engineer,IAS,IPS etc, why would he become *paid stonethrower...*



 and what about those officially owned 47000 Kashmirs who actually died fighting with Indian Army? Since when Kashmiris started giving their lives out because they were being paid in cash for that?

Its actually painful to see how you guys still troll and without any backing of morality, justification and reasoning.


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## James007

Forrest Griffin said:


> what a bunch of lies. please grow a spine.



i shud have said this to u earlier anyway i accept my mistake


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## graphican

James007 said:


> they are getting the results simple...,u don't want to look those policemen or other security forces who gets injured due to these stone throwing people.don't look at one phase,bhai apney benifit ki mat socho,be update with other informations also.and frm the website where u get all this stuff,plz request the same to them also



I actually love people like you in India. Jay Ho!


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## James007

graphican said:


> I actually love people like you in India. Jay Ho!



same to u,


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## Forrest Griffin

LCA Tejas said:


> And How exactly do You know sitting safe inside where ever You are.. No body is Compelling you to believe me, Nor its my necessity to Make You Believe What I said, there are over 1billion people who would believe me, I am sorry, I cannot change facts Just to make You believe.



i dont believe the lies of you or the other 1 billion indians. you indians can go dance in a circle and say what ever you want, nobody outside of your little country believes any nonsense that comes out of an indians mouth. and please tell manmohan singh to stop the daily massacre of Kashmiris. *Kashmiris DO NOT like india and they certainly do not want to be apart of it.*


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## James007

Windjammer said:


> Yep, just like these kids............
> Suppose they are receiving their pocket money from what ever.
> 
> YouTube - Kashmir - Attrocities of Indian Troops



he could have done something wrong ,but the police treatment is not fair in any condition


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## graphican




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## LCA Tejas

Forrest Griffin said:


> i dont believe the lies of you or the other 1 billion indians. you indians can go dance in a circle and say what ever you want, nobody outside of your little country believes any nonsense that comes out of an indians mouth. and please tell manmohan singh to stop the daily massacre of Kashmiris. *Kashmiris DO NOT like india and they certainly do not want to be apart of it.*



And How exactly do You think we care for a bunch of Pakistanis?? and My dear buddy, Nonsense No matter from which country it comes from dosent get Sold..... And Manmohan sigh Knows what he is doing, I dont need to Tell Him anything, if he can make this country 2nd fastest growing economy in G-20 then He can control the situation sponsored by across the border quite easily...


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## James007

Forrest Griffin said:


> i dont believe the lies of you or the other 1 billion indians. you indians can go dance in a circle and say what ever you want, nobody outside of your little country believes any nonsense that comes out of an indians mouth. and please tell manmohan singh to stop the daily massacre of Kashmiris. *Kashmiris DO NOT like india and they certainly do not want to be apart of it.*



ok man we don't bother wat u think,i forgot to mention u 120 million or more pakistanis are truth speakers,i billion indian are liers  oh my ghost,if u really care,then u shud care 4 urself,ur family and then ur nation.u shud not have an habit to interfere at that place,where u cant come and which doesnt belong 2 u


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## graphican




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## Forrest Griffin

It certainly does not belong to dravidians. 100&#37; guranteed Kashmiris do not want to be associated with them or to say the least be apart of them.


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## James007

Forrest Griffin said:


> It certainly does not belong to dravidians. 100% guranteed Kashmiris do not want to be associated with them or to say the least be apart of them.



and plz go ,make them ur part.ask them to come pakistan


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## Forrest Griffin

James007 said:


> and plz go ,make them ur part.ask them to come pakistan



Trust me they want to be apart of Pakistan. 

Nobody in their right mind wants to be apart of a country that has one of the worst sanitary conditions in the world, a country where polytheism ranges from rats to inanimate objects.


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## LCA Tejas

Forrest Griffin said:


> It certainly does not belong to dravidians. 100&#37; guranteed Kashmiris do not want to be associated with them or to say the least be apart of them.



Well I feel sorry for You yet again, Kashmir shares Culture of Dravidians.... Infact there Language shiina is in the same family of other Dravidian language, There are subgroup of a Dravidian tribe known as the Kond , Kashmir has a Significant role to express its dravidian culture if allowed to


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## Forrest Griffin

what a bunch of nonsense lies fed through the indian propaganda machine.


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## LCA Tejas

Forrest Griffin said:


> Trust me they want to be apart of Pakistan.
> 
> Nobody in their right mind wants to be apart of a country that has one of the worst sanitary conditions in the world,* a country where polytheism ranges from rats to inanimate objects*.



Make sure, The debate is taken to In its Standard, You see me or anyone debating with you hurting your sentiments, Why Do you have to Hurt us then? 

If You cant debate without hurting anyone, we quit, You win buddy.


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## LCA Tejas

Forrest Griffin said:


> what a bunch of nonsense lies fed through the indian propaganda machine.



Which one are you talking about, Please you are free to Check your source and see if they have a dravidian Back ground or not


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## Forrest Griffin

LCA Tejas said:


> Which one are you talking about, Please you are free to Check your source and see if they have a dravidian Back ground or not



I'm quite sure the majority 75% of them do not.


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## LCA Tejas

Forrest Griffin said:


> I'm quite sure the majority 75% of them do not.



Yes they do sir.... 100% of them have Dravidian back ground, How can they not be?


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## xman

Kashmir name itself signifies its realtion to Sanskrit
Ka (&#8220;water&#8221 +Shimir (&#8220;to desiccate&#8221. Kaashmir denotes &#8220;a land desiccated from water&#8221;. 

The Buddhist Mauryan emperor Ashoka is often credited with having founded the old capital of Kashmir, Shrinagari, now ruins on the outskirts of modern Srinagar. Kashmir was long to be a stronghold of Buddhism.[9]

As a Buddhist seat of learning, it is possible that the Sarv&#257;stiv&#257;dan school dominated Kashmir.[10] East and Central Asian Buddhist monks are recorded as having visited the kingdom. In the late 4th century AD, the famous Kuchanese monk Kum&#257;raj&#299;va, born to an Indian noble family, studied D&#299;rgh&#257;gama and Madhy&#257;gama in Kashmir under Bandhudatta. He later became a prolific translator who helped take Buddhism to China. His mother J&#299;va is thought to have retired to Kashmir. Vimal&#257;k&#7779;a, a Sarv&#257;stiv&#257;dan Buddhist monk, travelled from Kashmir to Kucha and there instructed Kum&#257;raj&#299;va in the Vinayapi&#7789;aka.

Adi Shankara visited the pre-existing Sarvaj&#241;ap&#299;&#7789;ha (Sharada Peeth) in Kashmir in late 8th century CE or early 9th Century CE. The Madhaviya Shankaravijayam states this temple had four doors for scholars from the four cardinal directions. The southern door (representing South India) had never been opened, indicating that no scholar from South India had entered the Sarvajna Pitha. Adi Shankara opened the southern door by defeating in debate all the scholars there in all the various scholastic disciplines such as Mimamsa, Vedanta and other branches of Hindu philosophy; he ascended the throne of Transcendent wisdom of that temple.[11]

Abhinavagupta (approx. 950 - 1020 AD[12][13]) was one of India's greatest philosophers, mystics and aestheticians. He was also considered an important musician, poet, dramatist, exeget, theologian, and logician[14][15] - a polymathic personality who exercised strong influences on Indian culture.[16][17]
Kashmir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

so don't talk about similarities. no one wears(99.9&#37 burqa in Kashmir, they have their own traditional dress, similar to Pahari dress of Himachal and Uttrakhand. If any one wants to check , he can find that on google.

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## Forrest Griffin

lol you people are a serious joke. the only reason we allow you indians on this forum is to make us laugh


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## LCA Tejas

Forrest Griffin said:


> lol you people are a serious joke. the only reason we allow you indians on this forum is to make us laugh



Buddy you have lost the track,,,, Bye bye


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## Bang Galore

Forrest Griffin said:


> lol you people are a serious joke. the only reason we allow you indians on this forum is to make us laugh



Okay Laugh then. Why on earth are you crying in every single of your posts?



Forrest Griffin said:


> a country where polytheism ranges from rats to inanimate objects.



So, have you seen how god looks then? A* leap of faith is required to believe in God, it is then only a utter lack of imagination which prevents people from seeing God in different forms.*

In any case, why do you care? We don't concern ourselves with your beliefs and you need not bother us with your *enlightened* thoughts on the religions of others.

If you have something to contribute to a debate, do so. Repeating the same thought in every one of your posts & taking cheap shots at the religious beliefs of others does not earn you any respect.


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## Hulk

Separatists behind stone pelting incidents: Omar - Politics - Political News - ibnlive

n Jammu and Kashmir an innocent civilian, Shafiq Ahmad Sheikh, was stoned to death during an incident of stone pelting. The man was allegedly killed by supporters of hardline separatist and Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani who was looking to enforce a bandh call.

CNN-IBN grilled J-K Chief Minister Omar Abdullah who said that the Valley's separatist now have blood on their hands.

CNN-IBN: You have blamed Syed Ali Shah Geelani for the stone pelting death today. So you still think it's the separatists who are orchestrating the stone-throwing protests to keep the pot boiling? Are you saying that stone pelters are incited by the separatists? Or is that you way of discrediting the separatists?

Omar Abdullah: I can show them the effects of stone pelting on innocent people. The death of a 10-day-old baby in Baramulla and the death of a 40-year-old man in Srinagar are all the fallout of their actions for which nobody else seems to want take responsibility.

CNN-IBN: Your government has begun a crackdown on stone pelters and arrested 419 people between February and March. Many have been slapped with the stringent Public Safety Act (PSA). Under PSA a person can be detained for upto two years with no reason being given for the detainment. In fact on March 19, the J-K High Court stayed the execution of PSA against a minor booked for stone pelting. Aren't you misusing the law?

Omar Abdullah: I am not happy using the laws I have to take recourse to. I wouldn't have to if you didn't have people like Syed Ali Shah Geelani orchestrating these things and the PDP seeking to justify them. And most of the people who we pick up from time to time as a result of these stone pelting incidents are actually released pretty soon. It is only the worst offenders and the ring leaders of these stone pelting gangs that we have to detain under substantive laws otherwise they get bail from the courts almost immediately.

CNN-IBN: Are you saying there are no spontaneous protests, that all the protests are instigated?

Omar Abdullah: The only spontaneous protests are the ones that you see are the ones you see arising out of allegations or incidents of human rights violations. All the other protests are instigated, they are orchestrated and in quite a number of cases they are even paid for.

CNN-IBN: The PDP has accused you of adopting a policy of bullet for stone. According to the PDP young boys are pelting stones because they are angry with the government. How would you respond to this allegation?

Omar Abdullah: The only thing I want to say that if this anger is directed towards the National Conference-Congress coalition government then the next time the stone pelting incident I would like to see the patron and president of the PDP passing through that area and emerging unscathed because if it is a protest directed against me and my government when they pass through there, the people will cheer and applaud them and give them free passage through that area. If they can do that I think they can prove what they are saying. The fact of the matter is they are using incidents like this to make a political capital out of this, because quite honestly they don't have very much else to talk about.

CNN-IBN: But what about the genuine protestors? The danger is that you will brand every protestor as a stone pelter? There is a fear that in the name of dealing with stone pelters you could end up persecuting genuine protestors with genuine grievances?

Omar Abdullah: This is the last government that will do anything to genuine protestors who want to come out and voice their grievances in a democratic and peaceful manner. But I will not apologise for taking action against stone pelters whose actions very often result in death like this. Let's also understand there is a method to the madness of what the separatists and the PDP want. They wan that the stone pelting continues and in the response of the government particularly from the police and the security forces if some body gets injured or killed by a stray bullet or a tear gas shell it gives them further animation to keep them going. So they would like nothing more than like stone pelting to continue and the government to react to it in a heavy handed manner which we are doing our best not to do.

CNN-IBN: Throwing rocks and stones at the police seems to be the favoured mode of protest in Kashmir. Rather than just targeting the stone pelters why not also look at the underlying reasons for stone pelting?

*Omar Abdullah: I think it is very important that we understand that what you see in terms of stone pelting is highly localised. It is confined to two-three police stations in downtown Srinagar, old town Sopore and old town Baramulla. So please let's please let's not try and give this impression to everybody that the whole Valley is aflame and that everyone everywhere is throwing stones. It's a handful of people numbering in the hundreds and as I said they are ideologically for whatever reason driven to do this.* We are making efforts to reach out to civil society, we are having police-public interactions and melas which has had a salutary effect on the whole situation. We have been organising tours and trips for these people within the state and outside the state to give them a idea of a better future. So I don't think it is fair to accuse the government of only using the PSA or laws. We are also encouraging them to join the mainstream by making it easier for them to gain employment. we have put in measures just so that we can go to the root cause of the problem where it is necessary.

CNN-IBN: CNN-IBN did an investigation that showed that for some stone pelting is a business? Is money being paid to them for their stone-pelting activities? Your government it is said is taking tough action against some businessmen who are said to be funding this industry in the Kashmir Valley?

*Omar Abdullah: The industry of stone pelting is very much in our radar. We have in fact been able to identify to a couple of big business houses, one in particular who has used to his network of dealers to route the money through.* The case is still under investigation so I don't want to say too much on this case. The sooner we will be able to close this case, I will ensure the law follow its own course.

CNN-IBN: You came to power around 16 months ago. Do you honestly believe you've been able to reduce the sense of anger, alienation among a certain section of Kashmiris, some of whom seem to have turned professional stone pelters?

Omar Abdullah: To a large extent yes. But as I said there are pockets that need to be reached out to particularly in downtown Srinagar, Sopore, old Baramulla and some of the old areas which we will continue to seek to address. I think other than these areas I think we have made quite an impact to reach out to the youngsters as a whole.

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## shekhar

Forrest Griffin said:


> lol you people are a serious joke. the only reason we allow you indians on this forum is to make us laugh



if you dont like indians members in the forum complain to mod not us
on kashmir i dont claim like you that "i know what they are thinking" but i am sure that if we have to kill all kashmiri to keep J&K land in india we will do that but india is not pakistan which can break and we will not loose our land
tell me whats the plan pak has to take kashmir from india earlier you had superpower support and u couldnt do anything and now that super power is also slipping from ur grip (superpower=uncle SAM)
i will u some facts in the current world ppl vote doent count what matters is money all countries c india as opportunity sure they will take indian side and ask urself what r there view about pakistan is it an opportunity for them?


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## Forrest Griffin

Nobody likes indians. Not one single country's citizens will indians get general widespread respect and this includes Kashmir. Pakistanis on the other hand can go to Indonesia, Kashmir, Turkey, Malaysia and others and get respect. Even here Americans will not be seen hanging out with any indians and its only the indians who beg for their company. Only true place you indians will feel welcome is in india. Even then north indians including occupied Kashmir hate south indians. 

Even a sadder thing for you indians over here is indian girls love me and will choose me over you dravidians. They will date me before they ever will talk to a male dravidian. I take all your girls. Its really sad because all these indians girls are fickle minded and will not talk to their own dark fellow indians but they would rather choose their light skinned enemy.


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## Forrest Griffin

The indian caste system is alive and kicking among indians in the U.S. How sad you indians come here for a better life and your prejudices follow you. It even affects your american born indians


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## EjazR

Forrest Griffin said:


> *Trust me they want to be apart of Pakistan. *



Sorry no one is gonna trust some one sitting in the US first of all.

I'd rather trust this independent Irish opinion survey in Kashmir that showed that clearly more than* 70&#37; Muslims in Kashmir consider it UNACCEPTABLE to be a part of Pakistan for the resolution of the Kashmir issue*.

While 49% of Kashmiri Muslims found it unacceptable to join India. With the guarantee of autonomy inside the Indian union only 27% Muslims were opposed to joining India. 

If you add the Hindus and Buddhist populations then numbers for unacceptable will go down further in India's favor.

Here is the relevant table from the report.



Read the full report on www.peacepolls.org and you might change your wrong perceptions

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## prodevelopment

I can't believe my Pakistani friends here. 

Rather than condemning the loss of innocent kashmiri lives, you guys are justifying it as an acceptable loss in the greater moral cause.

Well, to be fair, Indians also justify the loss of civilian Kashmiri lives as an acceptable loss in the greater war against terrorism.

Case of Potaeto - Potaato i guess.

Please, carry on your fighting.


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## thebrownguy

Forrest Griffin said:


> Nobody likes indians. Not one single country's citizens will indians get general widespread respect and this includes Kashmir. Pakistanis on the other hand can go to Indonesia, Kashmir, Turkey, Malaysia and others and get respect. Even here Americans will not be seen hanging out with any indians and its only the indians who beg for their company. Only true place you indians will feel welcome is in india. Even then north indians including occupied Kashmir hate south indians.
> 
> Even a sadder thing for you indians over here is indian girls love me and will choose me over you dravidians. They will date me before they ever will talk to a male dravidian. I take all your girls. Its really sad because all these indians girls are fickle minded and will not talk to their own dark fellow indians but they would rather choose their light skinned enemy.



Lol.. you still have a lot of growing up to do buddy. Never mind.


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## Forrest Griffin

thebrownguy said:


> Lol.. you still have a lot of growing up to do buddy. Never mind.



your indian girls love to see me grow.


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## thebrownguy

Forrest Griffin said:


> your indian girls love to see me grow.



hmm exactly ... dude seriously ....


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## Bushy

prodevelopment said:


> I can't believe my Pakistani friends here.
> 
> Rather than condemning the loss of innocent kashmiri lives, you guys are justifying it as an acceptable loss in the greater moral cause.
> 
> Well, to be fair, Indians also justify the loss of civilian Kashmiri lives as an acceptable loss in the greater war against terrorism.
> 
> Case of Potaeto - Potaato i guess.
> 
> Please, carry on your fighting.




Do not be so surprised my friend, greater cause is for Pakistan, sacrifices are for Kashmiris.

Man, J&K gets highest amount of subsidies of all states in India. Enjoys highest level of autonomy of all Indian states. And pre-insurgency (before 1987), average Kashmiri's purchasing power was way higher than that of an average American. Secret - This hub of tourism got tax lax. 
Now how can Pakistanis understand the pain, it is not they who are at the receiving end. And if anyone thinks India will ever let it pass off to Pakistan, is terribly mistaken. When the talks don't work, the guns do. Isn't that the law of the land?

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## Forrest Griffin

thebrownguy said:


> hmm exactly ... dude seriously ....



no no, they love to see me grow. think harder about what i mean.


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## thebrownguy

"harder"? .. hehe.. ... not so difficult to guess what you wer implying ... learn to read sarcasm ...


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## truefriend

here pakistani going of the topic... its ok
u say about indian forces....please tell me when terrorist from ur site come to india(j&k) and kill innocent people .. 
ur own muslim brother .. 

whts ur opinion about that???


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## Forrest Griffin

try to write your scaracism in a more sarcastic way. not just hehe haha gooblie goo doo doo.


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## Prometheus

graphican said:


> Is firing of bullets in head and cutting limbs with knives by the occupying forces "okay"? I guess if stone throwing is matter of discontentment for you, you would like to say something stronger for the people who fire bullets in heads and cut libs, regardless of what uniform they wear and what belief system they follow. So what are your words for these devils?




If you dont have answer .....just say it bro.
This week even Punjab Police of India gave infiltraters bullets in the head...............


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## Prometheus

sorry will you tell who is ur "occupying forces here"

I see only Police .

And Police Do same thing all over the world...........

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## karan.1970

graphican said:


> This is an unfortunate incident that a 11 days old baby passed away.. but who was that 11 years old baby going to become? A surviver under Indian occupation? I pray that 11 years old baby had survived so he could have joined those protesters and had acted against occupying forces under Indian uniform.



I just wish he survived to become what ever he wanted to...


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## prodevelopment

@Forrest Griffin

Can I ask you a question? How old are you exactly?

I ask this because you are showing a complete lack of intelligence and understanding on the topic. You say things like 'No Kashmiri wants to be a part of India' which are very easy to refute in logical debates. You are basing your entire posts on your perception.

Well let me tell you my perception. My boss is a Kashmiri. Her husband was the Vice-Chancellor in Kashmir University. Their opinion on the Kashmiri mindset is that Kashmiris have a lot of mistrust. They do not trust India. They do not trust Pakistan. They do not even trust people from Jammu. They trust only Kashmiris, be it Muslim or Hindu. 

A Kashmiri Pandit considers Kashmiri musalmaan his brother. He does not want to associated with non-kashmiri people and eyes them with suspicion.

Similarly, a Kashmiri Musalman considers kashmiri pandit his brother. He does not want to associated with Pakistanis and eyes them with suspicion.


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## Forrest Griffin

prodevelopment said:


> @Forrest Griffin
> 
> Can I ask you a question? How old are you exactly?
> 
> I ask this because you are showing a complete lack of intelligence and understanding on the topic. You say things like 'No Kashmiri wants to be a part of India' which are very easy to refute in logical debates. You are basing your entire posts on your perception.
> 
> Well let me tell you my perception. My boss is a Kashmiri. Her husband was the Vice-Chancellor in Kashmir University. Their opinion on the Kashmiri mindset is that Kashmiris have a lot of mistrust. They do not trust India. They do not trust Pakistan. They do not even trust people from Jammu. They trust only Kashmiris, be it Muslim or Hindu.
> 
> A Kashmiri Pandit considers Kashmiri musalmaan his brother. He does not want to associated with non-kashmiri people and eyes them with suspicion.
> 
> Similarly, a Kashmiri Musalman considers kashmiri pandit his brother. He does not want to associated with Pakistanis and eyes them with suspicion.



your hindu Kashmiri boss opinion is irrelevant. hindus are a minority in Kashmir. 

Goodbye you "old mature person" ...what a joke.


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## Roshan

> Kashmir's fate resides in Kashmir's decision. Not some people who have absolutely nothing in common with them yet claim that its an 'integral part.'
> 
> And if India is so 'democratic' then go ahead and put up a 'democratic' vote of Kashmirs fate. We'll see if 'nothing will change.'




The 1st PRIME MINISTER of INDIA was a *KASHMIRI*(nehru).He was our PM for 28 years. any ways.......and you are claiming we have nothing in common with the kashmiris?


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## prodevelopment

Forrest Griffin said:


> your hindu Kashmiri boss opinion is irrelevant. hindus are a minority in Kashmir.
> 
> Goodbye you "old mature person" ...what a joke.



Oh yes, a kashmiri's opinion is irrelevant. But an american's opinion is relevant? 

Allright. Since you do not respond to logic, let me try to talk in your language. 

You said "your hindu Kashmiri boss opinion is irrelevant. hindus are a minority in Kashmir. "

So, Kashmiri opinion is irrelevant in J&K. Kashmiris are in the minority in J&K. Go cry in front of someone who cares.


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## Forrest Griffin

prodevelopment said:


> Oh yes, a kashmiri's opinion is irrelevant. But an american's opinion is relevant?
> 
> Allright. Since you do not respond to logic, let me try to talk in your language.
> 
> You said "your hindu Kashmiri boss opinion is irrelevant. hindus are a minority in Kashmir. "
> 
> So, Kashmiri opinion is irrelevant in J&K. Kashmiris are in the minority in J&K. Go cry in front of someone who cares.



Don't get mad and bang your head against your computer.  Just accept the fact Kashmiris hate india as do most everybody when they first meet an indian in person.


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## prodevelopment

Forrest Griffin said:


> Don't get mad and bang your head against your computer.  Just accept the fact Kashmiris hate india as do most everybody when they first meet an indian in person.



You know what, this was my fault. I have developed an answer for people like you, and I should have used it sooner.








As you can clearly, the bunny has a pancake on his head. The pancake is on his head! HIS HEAD!!! THERE IS A PANCAKE ON IT AND IT IS NOT FALLING OFF!

What more evidence do you need?

I declare myself the winner of this argument.


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## Forrest Griffin

prodevelopment said:


> You know what, this was my fault. I have developed an answer for people like you, and I should have used it sooner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can clearly, the bunny has a pancake on his head. The pancake is on his head! HIS HEAD!!! THERE IS A PANCAKE ON IT AND IT IS NOT FALLING OFF!
> 
> What more evidence do you need?
> 
> I declare myself the winner of this argument.



This post and your previous posts proves that indians are, on average, genetically predisposed to be less intelligent.

I could be convinced that by controlling for the right variables, we would see that indians are, in fact, as intelligent as Pakistani people under the same circumstances, but this would have to be in a controlled environment and even then this is highly unlikely.

The fact is, some things are genetic. indians tend to have darker skin. Irish people are more likely to have red hair.

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## EjazR

*Daily Times - CBMs to strengthen cross-LoC trade approved: India*

_* Indian home secretary says New Delhi waiting for Islamabad&#8217;s nod for implementation_

By Iftikhar Gilani

NEW DELHI: India says it has unilaterally approved several Kashmir-related confidence building measures to strengthen cross-Line of Control trade, and is awaiting Pakistan&#8217;s approval for their complete implementation.

Presenting a monthly report from the Home Ministry, Home Secretary GK Pillai told reporters on Friday New Delhi had approved setting up a
banking mechanism to eliminate barter system and increasing the number of trading days from two to four days a week.

Pillai said the Defence Ministry had been asked to procure and install full-body truck scanners to facilitate checking at checkposts. The plan also involves upgrading infrastructure at the two trading centres at Salamabad in Uri along the Sringar-Muzaffaraabd road and Chakan da Bagh in Jammu region along the Poonch-Rawlakot road.

The Telecommunication Ministry had also ordered permitting international calls from Indian-held Kashmir to Pakistan after a hiatus of 20 years. An order issued on Thursday had stated that the facility would be confined to
select trade centres for cross-LoC trade. The ISD facility to Pakistan from IHK was withdrawn in
1990 following the outbreak of militancy.

The official telephone provider, BSNL, had been asked to install ISD facilities in the offices of the Poonch district development commissioner, the manager of the district industries centre there, the custodian of LoC trade in Salamabad in north IHK&#8217;s Baramulla district, and in the office of the Srinagar Chamber of Commerce and Industry.

The links will facilitate traders to talk to their counterparts across the border. Moreover, to ensure additional security, all traders registered for cross-LoC trade have been asked to collect their identity
cards from the trade facility centres.

Indian officials had been complaining that they do not hear from Pakistan over proposals on enhancing cross-LoC trade. Even the proposals of meetings of business chambers from both sides had not been responded to.

Last month, the Indian Cabinet Committee on Security had approved a proposal of the IHK government to permit Jammu and Kashmir Bank to open an Asian Currency Unit account at the State Bank of Pakistan to allow traders to trade in currency units rather than barter. The IHK government had been pressing the Indian and Pakistani banks to open vostro accounts of each other&#8217;s rupee for trans-LoC trade to recognise it as domestic trade instead of an import-export feeling coming from adopting the ACU method for payments by the traders on both sides.

However, since the Indian and Pakistani rupees are not traded in each other&#8217;s country, the Reserve Bank of India and the State Bank of Pakistan will have to buy and sell the two currencies at fixed rate to prevent exchange risk to traders while trading in dual currency


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## Hutchroy

Forrest Griffin said:


> Don't get mad and bang your head against your computer.  Just accept the fact Kashmiris hate india as do most everybody when they first meet an indian in person.



Pakistan should avoid Kashmir in talks with India, says AJK PM

*Pakistan should avoid Kashmir in talks with India, says AJK PM* 

Monday, May 03, 2010
By Jawwad Rizvi

LAHORE: *Azad Jammu and Kashmir Prime Minister Farooq Haider has said Pakistan is not in a position to talk with India on Kashmir issue on equal terms due to its internal issues so it should avoid the Kashmir issue in its bilateral talks.*

Talking to a selected group of journalists during his two-day visit to Lahore on Sunday, he said the lingering issue of the self-determination for the people of Kashmir was not a bilateral one, it needed trilateral talks with the help of any third international party involvement. However, India is avoiding this and once again resumed the bilateral talks after the world pressure has built up after Pakistans performance in the war on terror, he remarked. 

The AJK prime minister suggested that Pakistan must take up water issue with India in talks. Th water issue will automatically involve the Kashmir issue as all rivers enter into Pakistan from Kashmir, he remarked.

He said, *Currently, Pakistan is not in a position to talk at equal terms on Kashmir with India due to its internal problems and ongoing war on terror against the extremists, *he said.

About the internal issues faced by the AJK after the constitutional issues, *Farooq Haider suggested that the Federal Minister for Kashmir Affairs Manzoor Wattoo must avoid involvement in the state maters.*

I will never dissolve the (AJK) Legislative Assembly despite the fact I have been facing some tough opposition from a group and I have the authority to dissolve Legislative Assembly, but I will never do this.

The Muslim Conference party has majority in the 49-member state parliament and I enjoy confidence of all party lawmakers. I have the majority, why should I dissolve state legislature, he said.

He also said that he would not be defeated as some people sitting in Islamabad had the desire to oust him. I am sure that some corners are still active against me because they dont want to accept me as the prime minister, he said. About the judicial crisis, he said there was no crisis in the state and all institutions, including judiciary, were working smoothly.

*He also warned the government in Islamabad against taking any unconstitutional step in the constitutional matters of Azad Kashmir. He said any unconstitutional interference from Islamabad would also have implications for Pakistan. Some steps taken by the Islamabad administration were creating a split among the Kashmiris, he said and added that for Kashmiris Pakistan was like a mother with whom they could not fight.*

He also said the reference against Justice Riaz Akhtar Chaudhry, now dysfunctional chief justice, was filed as he was interfering in matters of executive and administration. *I will never bow before anyone with dictatorial powers and will be ready to sacrifice my own position for the supremacy of law and constitution,* he said.

He said that he had no personal grudge against Chaudhry. He asked Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani to announce his decision about the chief justice of Azad Kashmir as chairperson of the Kashmir Council without further delay.


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## EjazR

*Rising Kashmir - Geelani bans anti-India slogans*

*Says Govt backing stone throwers*

Asem Mohiuddin
Sopore, May 02: Reacting to Chief Minister Omar Abdullah&#8217;s statement of blaming him for the death of a Natipora resident in stone pelting at Batamaloo, chairman of Hurriyat Conference (G), Syed Ali Geelani Sunday blamed the government of backing stone pelters and added that he supports peaceful protests and condemns acts of stone pelting and anti-India sloganeering.


Addressing a gathering at Sopore after visiting the family of a local cable operator, Ashiq Hussain who was recently killed by unknown gunmen, Geelani said he does not support people who raise derogatory and inflammatory slogans.

*&#8220;We protest against the illegal occupation of India. However, we have no personal differences with the people of India. So we need not to raise slogans like &#8216;Bharat Teri Moot Ayee&#8217; (Death has come unto India) and should not indulge in stone pelting,&#8221; Geelani said.*

Regarding the death of 45-year-old cable operator by unknown gunmen, Geelani said it was difficult to trace the culprits when the whole State has turned into a garrison due to massive presence of troops.

&#8220;In the past Ikhwanis (renegades) killed hundreds of innocent people, destroyed properties and charged ransom for lives. Then too government called them unknown gunmen. The truth only prevailed when people found them in company with troops in their barracks and camps. Today again government makes same claims whenever such killing takes place,&#8221; the Hurriyat (G) chairman said.

Accusing the government agencies of supporting stone-pelters in Sopore, the octogenarian leader said he strongly condemns the killing of Shafiq Ahmed like he condemned such killings in the past. &#8220;We also condemned the killing of an infant when stone-pleters in Chakloo Baramulla stopped the vehicle.&#8221;

Geelani said that if the government was concerned about such killings and blamed Hurriyat for these why did chief minister push under the carpet the killings by cops like Parvez Ahmad Hajam, Amir Ahmad and many others.

*&#8220;I have been informed by reliable sources that the youth who indulge in stone-pelting unnecessarily in Sopore town and force shutdown are supported by government agencies,&#8221; Geelani said. &#8220;Police slaps stone-pelters in Srinagar and other parts of the Valley with PSAs but in Sopore they arrest them and later release them in the evening,&#8221; he said.*

&#8220;We see in parts of Srinagar, Sopore and Baramulla where intellectuals, educated and respectable class of the society resist the Indian rule, the government sabotages them with the use of lethal force,&#8221; he said.

Asking mainstream political parties to resign and represent the true emotions of the people, Geelani said people who spent lavishly on themselves and remain confined to the assemblies should know in true sense what people of Kashmir want.

&#8220;The slave people of Jammu and Kashmir don&#8217;t need railway lines, flyovers, roads, daily-wage jobs but freedom from slavery, imperialism and exploitation,&#8221; Geelani said.

He said all mainstream political parties were informers of troops. They don&#8217;t identify with the freedom struggle of the people and send them to jails in Jammu to torture them in the scorching heat. They do it just to fulfill their personal interests.

Meanwhile, Geelani urged people to continue freedom struggle. &#8220;People of Kashmir will never succumb and continue peaceful struggle.&#8221;

He said exploitation under imperialism by the India was at its peak. &#8220;Around 5000 kanal of forest land in Shopian has been occupied by army and around 3 to 4 lakh trees will be chopped by them to set up the bunkers there. About 28 lakh kanal of land has also been occupied by troops.&#8221;


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## kashith

Aegis starts BPO ops in Kashmir - Outsourcing - News - Tech - The Times of India

SRINAGAR: Aegis, a business process outsourcing (BPO) company under the Essar Group umbrella, commenced its operations in Kashmir recently. 

Post-militancy, this is the first time that a venture of such magnitude has been undertaken in the Valley. 

Set up at the Rangrate IT Park near Srinagar, the BPO centre boasts of the latest technology and offers world-class facilities in line with other Aegis centres across the globe, company president Sudhir Agarwal said. 

He said that the company has recruited 200 employees from the Valley to fulfill its commitment of providing employment to the local youth. 

Agarwal said that Aegis Srinagar has already tied up with Vodafone. "The Srinagar office will serve domestic clients, including telecom service providers and financial institutions," said the Aegis president, who provides strategic advice and guidance to teams across centres in India, Philippines, South Africa, Australia and Sri Lanka. 

He said that Aegis Srinagar will offer direct and indirect employment opportunities to over 2,000 youths from the Valley once it becomes fully operational. Lauding Aegis state president Zahoor Malik, Agarwal said that he had ensured the "seamless introduction" of Essar Group's ventures in Jammu and Kashmir. 

Malik, in turn, praised the state government for helping Essar establish the centre. "The government provided Aegis Limited with the space it required. From the foundation stone-laying by Chief Minister Omar Abdullah to helping us commence operations, the state government has always been by our side," he said. 

Noting that the state-of-the-art Aegis BPO centre was spread over an area of 22,000 sq ft, he said that local youths were recruited not only for the BPO centre but also departments pertaining to housekeeping, transport, centre development and maintenance. 

Elaborating on the technical aspects of the BPO, Aegis senior vice-president Faisal Durani said that the capacity of the Srinagar centre is being enhanced from 250 to 500 seats. 

Customer service executives and call centre agents are inducted into the BPO centre only after being trained extensively for a month, he added

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## Dark Angel

*I think the best way to deal with terrorist is*  


but the steps taen by the govt for the development of people there is remarkable also the army has also set up the infrastructure like schools, hosp....etc GR8


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## Moorkh

good news. 

lets hope this is just the first of many economic ventures being set up in J&K


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## chachag

creating jobs is best way to make good j&k 

every one want to see kashmir as its name heaven of the world


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## Srinivas

Indian govt is doing well for the past 5 years in J and K and i am sure peace will restore in the valley in the coming years.


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## deep.ocean

Best feasible solutionb will be "Change Demography of Kashmir"..
Inidan govt should make it Union Territory and start settling people from rest of India..


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## KS

Article 370 granting special status to Kashmir should be removed.
Within 2 years the foreign funded insurgency in Kashmir will be in its death bed.

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## kashith

i believe this will stop local support for mujahids.If everyone has a job no one will want to go on road to pelt stones....For development roads should be built using only local labour..or else give them contracts for development...


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## Contrarian

Completely agree...remove Article 370...
That will lead to a lot of businesses also setting up shop in the valley..


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## letsbefriends

the idea is to give create jobs for local population...other factors like cheap loans for small businesses,govt contracts for constructing roads,bridges n houses,giving the kashmiris jobs in defence,paramilitary and police services so that they can guard kashmir like there backyard and people will also be content with the fact that kashmir is being protected by kashmiris


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## xman

I think, we should not discuss this topic here.


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## RajeHind

Remove article 370, bring economic prosperity and impose uniform civil code of india.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

the best way to fight insurgency in Kashmir ... Allow the Kashmiris to exercise their right to self-determination as agreed to in the UNSC resolutions.

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## qsaark

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> the best way to fight insurgency in Kashmir ... Allow the Kashmiris to exercise their right to self-determination as agreed to in the UNSC resolutions.


The same UNSC resolutions that Pakistan refused to honor.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

qsaark said:


> The same UNSC resolutions that Pakistan refused to honor.



It has been discussed thread bare in discussions between Toxic and I, Pakistan did not violate the UNSC resolutions.

Please read through them and offer some new arguments supporting your POV or negating mine instead of just repeating your premise, which I believe has been shown to be false.

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## freak

I think its a great move. More corporates need to start investing Kashmir. On my last visit to Kashmir, I spoke to lot of people on the street and the major grievance was the lack of job opportunities. there are govt jobs available but there is a dearth of corporate jobs. Tourism still remains the cash cow.

Hope Aegis has set a new precedent and lot more will join this bandwagon.


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## blueoval79

More jobs mean less people unemployed to be brain washed to become terrorists......so kill the root cause....Give them jobs......give them money...and a better life....and the terrorism will die out just like it did In Punjab.....no more fresh recruits for so called Jihadi groups....

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## Prometheus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> the best way to fight insurgency in Kashmir ... Allow the Kashmiris to exercise their right to self-determination as agreed to in the UNSC resolutions.


you better know that thing is not going to happen

insurgency ends when local support diminishes , it becomes terrorism than.

it was a time when Kashmir wanted to be with Pakistan..........but now they dont want to part of pakistan or India .

sooner or later.............they will accept India.


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## Areesh

Prometheus said:


> you better know that thing is not going to happen
> 
> insurgency ends when local support diminishes , it becomes terrorism than.
> 
> it was a time when Kashmir wanted to be with Pakistan..........but now they dont want to part of pakistan or India .
> 
> *sooner or later.............they will accept India.*



How sooner after a century or two? By the way you do accept that they don't want to live with you at present.

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## EjazR

*Rising Kashmir, - BJP praises Kashmir Muslims*
_Says love not bullets will solve all issues_

Jammu, May 04: Praising Kashmiri Muslims for upholding the age-old tradition of secularism during turmoil, Bharatiya Janata Party Tuesday said love not bullets will solve the issues.


&#8220;During my first visit to Srinagar after assuming the office of party spokesman I found the common Kashmiris peace loving, wanting to have a prosperous and harmonious future, specially the youth of the valley,&#8221; BJP&#8217;s national spokesperson Tarun Vijay said.

Stating that he has brought good wishes and prayers for happy times for people of Kashmir on behalf of party, he said, &#8220;It&#8217;s time for a New Kashmir led by the youth to rise leading into the era of peace, prosperity and progress. The wise, brilliant, futuristic path is at a stone&#8217;s throw away spreading its arms that ensure liberalism and happiness. We must lend an ear and guide them for the future. Their anger should be channelized into employment avenues. Our Party President Nitin Gadkari has given a special message of goodwill for the youth of Kashmir wishing them happiness and a peaceful time ahead that must make every Indian proud.&#8221;

&#8220;I would also like to salute the Kashmiri mothers who painstakingly tried and succeeded to a great extent keeping away their children from terrorism and destructive activities. Their heart and soul witnessed mayhem upsetting the real spirit of a composite culture of Kashmiriyat and they have stood firmly for saner and civilized values. Let&#8217;s walk together. I invite the youth and the women power to join BJP and create progressive entrepreneurship in the region of science, technology and protection of the environment that can become an example for the rest of India,&#8221; Tarun said.

Maintaining that nothing can surpass the humanitarian values of the Kashmiri society, he said, &#8220;We believe that solutions to all issues can be found through path of Insaniyat and not through bullets.&#8221;

He said number of incidents have been noticed in Kashmir when the local Muslims have courageously stood with Kashmiri Hindus and helped them. &#8220;A large number of them want Hindus to return and also support those who have stayed back. It&#8217;s a welcome sign that must get the national attention and accelerate the creation of a situation where all Hindus feel safe to return. One example, amongst many I heard is of Fateh Kadal, where a Shri Rama Shaiv Ashram was rebuilt by the active help from local Muslim friends. I wish such examples are highlighted by media also,&#8221; he added.


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## chchajan

i think its a good moov


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## KS

Areesh said:


> How sooner after a century or two? By the way you do accept that they don't want to live with you at present.



We have the patience and more than enuff resources to wait....do u..?


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## KS

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> the best way to fight insurgency in Kashmir ... Allow the Kashmiris to exercise their right to self-determination as agreed to in the UNSC resolutions.



UNSC...my ***.....Sir u know better than others that this is not going to happen..
Is it logical on ur part to expect India to do something that is not in India's favour..?


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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> We have the patience and more than enuff resources to wait....do u..?



It's good if you have the patience but it is good to hear from an Indian that kashmiris don't want to live with India at present. They *will* accept Indian occupation in the future but not now.

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## Prometheus

Areesh said:


> How sooner after a century or two? By the way you do accept that they don't want to live with you at present.



you just read sooner...................*.what about "LATER"*????


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## Prometheus

Areesh said:


> It's good if you have the patience but it is good to hear from an Indian that kashmiris don't want to live with India at present. They *will* accept Indian occupation in the future but not now.




First of all its not occupation

About Kashmiris.................only minority of population of a particular religion in valley alone have separistic agenda.

Ladakh region (forms most of area of Kashmir ) and Jammu.........are Indians by heart and soul.

And about those particular minority................shift is coming ( at a fast pace)




and isnt it true that Army seldom do COIN operations


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## Prometheus

Areesh said:


> It's good if you have the patience but it is good to hear from an Indian that kashmiris don't want to live with India at present. They *will* accept Indian occupation in the future but not now.



just a question...............why is it that almost all encounters with militants occur in border areas and near LOC?????

---------------------
http://www.mynews.in/News/Massive_response_to_Army_recruitment_in_north_Kashmir_N51585.html



> Srinagar: A massive response was received to Army recruitment drive in the border tehsil of Karnah in the frontier district of Kupwara. The recruitment drive launched yesterday will continue till May 4, a Defence Ministry spokesman said here today.
> 
> He said a new horizon of job opportunity in the Olive Green uniform beckons the youth of Karnah Tehsil where a recruitment drive has been organised by the Indian Army from yesterday.
> 
> The Army with its proud and distinguished history, promises a lifestyle of excitement and adventure in the service of our great nation.
> 
> Hopefuls must successfully complete a series of challenging tasks in a fiercely contested merit-based competition to be among the chosen few.
> 
> The first stage of this process including documentation, physical tasks and medicals for screening of candidates for Karnah Tehsil only, will be conducted at Chhamkot.
> 
> The shortlisted candidates will then appear in a written examination, which will be organised by the Area Recruiting Office, Srinagar at Kupwara on May 30. He said the selection for recruitment will then be carried out on merit basis.
> 
> The recruitment drive is the result of a series of initiatives by the Army authorities, in its continued endeavour to empower the youth of the remote border area of Tangdhar, spokesman said.


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## SpArK

Economy has to be boosted, farming has to be rejuvenated, bring kashmiris to the main front, promote tourism, create more jobs in kashmir and other states. The state will be normal like other state and it has immense potential to excel.
I hope it wont be that long when we hear Kashmir as one of the foremost states in Indian union.


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## Areesh

Prometheus said:


> First of all its not occupation
> 
> About Kashmiris.................only minority of population of a particular religion in valley alone have separistic agenda.
> 
> Ladakh region (forms most of area of Kashmir ) and Jammu.........are Indians by heart and soul.
> 
> And about those particular minority................shift is coming ( at a fast pace)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and isnt it true that Army seldom do COIN operations



About occupation check my signature. 

Well she had a good photo shoot by the Indian media might be payed good for her so called fight against terror. Indian media is pathetic at one hand they claim Pakistan is sending and training the so called terrorists and on the other this girl rukhsana first snatches the gun from that so called Pakistan army trained terrorist and then kills him.


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## Areesh

Prometheus said:


> just a question...............why is it that almost all encounters with militants occur in border areas and near LOC?????
> 
> ---------------------
> Massive response to Army recruitment in north Kashmir



Insurgency is all over kashmir doesn't matter whether it is the border area or some place else. The fact is that which you also acknowledge that they don't want to live with you.


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## RobbieS

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It has been discussed thread bare in discussions between Toxic and I, Pakistan did not violate the UNSC resolutions.
> 
> Please read through them and offer some new arguments supporting your POV or negating mine instead of just repeating your premise, which I believe has been shown to be false.



May be you guys have already discussed this but from what I have read, both Indian and Pakistani forces were required to move back to pre-1948 positions, ie. before the war began. And that simply didn't happen. No side was prepared to take the first step back.


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## brahmastra

RobbieS said:


> May be you guys have already discussed this but from what I have read, both Indian and Pakistani forces were required to move back to pre-1948 positions, ie. before the war began. And that simply didn't happen. No side was prepared to take the first step back.



only pakistani side required to move force, for India they are not bound to move force. read it again.


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## ice_man

*the best way to fight insurgency in Kashmir*

Ans:Hand it over to Pakistan

look on a serious note if india wants to grab the land of kashmir let it! you can never make the kashmiris love india!

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## IndianArmy

ice_man said:


> *the best way to fight insurgency in Kashmir*
> 
> Ans:Hand it over to Pakistan
> 
> look on a serious note if india wants to grab the land of kashmir let it! you can never make the kashmiris love india!



But You are wrong sir.... We Give them all the relief, Indian army is very friendly to them, But under certain circumstances We have to take action, thats the main purpose we are there for....

Kashmiri People dont hate us, Its the separatists who hate us....

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## hillman32

*There is no insurgency going on in Kashmir - However, a Freedom Movement is going on in full swing since 1989.

No one, no power could ever suppressed a FREEDOM MOVEMENT. It can be weaken but it springs up later.

India has run pillar to post in order to charm Kashmiris and they did not take the baits.

I salute 100,000 Kashmiri people who had laid their lives for the cause - Liberation from Indian yoke of slavery.

I salute all the Shaheeds and Mujahids.*


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## hillman32

Prometheus said:


> First of all its not occupation
> 
> About Kashmiris.................only minority of population of a particular religion in valley alone have separistic agenda.
> 
> Ladakh region (forms most of area of Kashmir ) and Jammu.........are Indians by heart and soul.
> 
> And about those particular minority................shift is coming ( at a fast pace)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and isnt it true that Army seldom do COIN operations





She seems to be an South Indian extra who performed on cash payment................. nothing more as she is NOT a Kashmiri


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## blueoval79

hillman32 said:


> *There is no insurgency going on in Kashmir - However, a Freedom Movement is going on in full swing since 1989.
> 
> No one, no power could ever suppressed a FREEDOM MOVEMENT. It can be weaken but it springs up later.
> 
> India has run pillar to post in order to charm Kashmiris and they did not take the baits.
> 
> I salute 100,000 Kashmiri people who had laid their lives for the cause - Liberation from Indian yoke of slavery.
> 
> I salute all the Shaheeds and Mujahids.*



There was a so called freedom movement going on In Indian Punjab some time back.....Remember....Khalisthan...... where is the Khalisthan these days........Oh yes I remember....Khali-Sthan....empty Space.....Pakistani dream went kaput ....kaboom...and badaboom.....there....wait for some time ...we will do the same in Kashmir.

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## Prometheus

Areesh said:


> *Insurgency is all over kashmir doesn't matter whether it is the border area or some place else*. The fact is that which you also acknowledge that they don't want to live with you.



hey what does bold part mean???............seems like two opposite things in one.

And how did you figured out that Bhudhist of Ladakh and Pandits of valley are dieing to be Pakistanis???


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## deesu

hillman32 said:


> She seems to be an South Indian extra who performed on cash payment................. nothing more as she is NOT a Kashmiri



Great.... you found a way to discriminate even here????


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## Prometheus

hillman32 said:


> She seems to be an South Indian extra who performed on cash payment................. nothing more as she is NOT a Kashmiri




yes and I am George Bush


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## Prometheus

blueoval79 said:


> There was a so called freedom movement going on In Indian Punjab some time back.....Remember....Khalisthan...... where is the Khalisthan these days........Oh yes I remember....Khali-Sthan....empty Space.....Pakistani dream went kaput ....kaboom...and badaboom.....there....wait for some time ...we will do the same in Kashmir.




hey buddy............did you know what does khalsitan mean???

refrain from making such posts


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## hillman32

blueoval79 said:


> There was a so called freedom movement going on In Indian Punjab some time back.....Remember....Khalisthan...... where is the Khalisthan these days........Oh yes I remember....Khali-Sthan....empty Space.....Pakistani dream went kaput ....kaboom...and badaboom.....there....wait for some time ...we will do the same in Kashmir.



*Khalistan - was suppressed by killing all youth of Indian Punjab. It was genocide. India paid back once Indra was killed.

Khalistan Movement is being nursed at the moment in the laps of the mothers of Sikh Nation.

Wait for 8-12 years and reality will come up.*


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## Mirza Jatt

hillman32 said:


> She seems to be an South Indian extra who performed on cash payment................. nothing more as she is NOT a Kashmiri



 this just proves how tough it is for you to digest truth shown to you..


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## blueoval79

hillman32 said:


> *Khalistan - was suppressed by killing all youth of Indian Punjab. It was genocide. India paid back once Indra was killed.*


*


That was the only mistake Khalisthani terrorists did...and the movement got ripped from the grass root....

Where is khalisthan these days .....again......





Khalistan Movement is being nursed at the moment in the laps of the mothers of Sikh Nation.

Wait for 8-12 years and reality will come up.

Click to expand...

*

Yes ...old terrorists Running around Kanedda would be dead by then....and new Gen Sikh from Kenedda have no acceptance in India .........and more over they have got no intentions to come back here......they are loving their lives in Kenedda.


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## Isaq Khan

hillman32 said:


> *There is no insurgency going on in Kashmir - However, a Freedom Movement is going on in full swing since 1989.
> 
> No one, no power could ever suppressed a FREEDOM MOVEMENT. It can be weaken but it springs up later.
> 
> India has run pillar to post in order to charm Kashmiris and they did not take the baits.
> 
> I salute 100,000 Kashmiri people who had laid their lives for the cause - Liberation from Indian yoke of slavery.
> 
> I salute all the Shaheeds and Mujahids.*




using colorful bold text shows your frustration BTW this is against rules of this forum.


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## hillman32

Isaq Khan said:


> using colorful bold text shows your frustration BTW this is against rules of this forum.



*If it is against the Rules, then why facility of doing it is present here ?*


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## Isaq Khan

The terrorist are the biggest enemy of he peaceful people of Kashmir.

Because of them they are being killed and extra deployment of security forces is causing local people trouble. And the terrorists are responsible for it also.

Terrorist have taken away the livelihood of the local people but the things are improving as the railway project will be completed soon Kashmir will be connected through rail and the new roads building projects will bring development and jobs in Kashmir.


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## Isaq Khan

hillman32 said:


> *If it is against the Rules, then why facility of doing it is present here ?*



ask the webmaster.

they says that we can use it only in the headlines of the thread.

No big fonts

No colorful texts

moreover just click above in the page, at the rules link and you will see the updated rules.


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## KS

Im repeating this..
*REPEAL ARTICLE 370*....nd Hey Presto....u ll have the insurgency on its death beds...

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## Prometheus

Karthic Sri said:


> Im repeating this..
> *REPEAL ARTICLE 370*....nd Hey Presto....u ll have the insurgency on its death beds...




article 370 is applicable in other states also like Himachal (i guess)

this was used to protect environment of these states


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## hillman32

*Freedom Fighters are not terrorists...................... kiya kyyal hay?*


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## Prometheus

hillman32 said:


> *Freedom Fighters are not terrorists...................... kiya kyyal hay?*


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## prodevelopment

I think J&K needs a Modi-like CM; in terms of development focus of course.

It is the responsibility of the state govt to incentivize private investment in the region. Unfortunately, the Abdullahs and the Muftis have yet to come out of the royal mindset, something like Vasundhra Raje Scindia. 

Give the private investors tax incentives. Actively promote Public Private Participation. Promote the local industry. Make SEZs. (Hell, make an apple SEZ. If Assam can have a Banana Park, why can't J&K?). Promise them of no political interference.

If the Govt. does that, I don't see any reason why private industry will not come to J&K.

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## Prometheus

prodevelopment said:


> I think J&K needs a Modi-like CM; in terms of development focus of course.
> 
> It is the responsibility of the state govt to incentivize private investment in the region. Unfortunately, the Abdullahs and the Muftis have yet to come out of the royal mindset, something like Vasundhra Raje Scindia.
> 
> Give the private investors tax incentives. Actively promote Public Private Participation. Promote the local industry. Make SEZs. (Hell, make an apple SEZ. If Assam can have a Banana Park, why can't J&K?). Promise them of no political interference.
> 
> If the Govt. does that, I don't see any reason why private industry will not come to J&K.




another reason of lack of investment is connectivity...................railways taking taking too much time


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## brahmastra

Karthic Sri said:


> Im repeating this..
> *REPEAL ARTICLE 370*....nd Hey Presto....u ll have the insurgency on its death beds...



good Idea. let other Indians(Non kashmiri) buy immovable property or build settlements of people from other part of India like Pak did.


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## prodevelopment

Prometheus said:


> another reason of lack of investment is connectivity...................railways taking taking too much time



As someone who works in Indian Railways, I can tell you that the difficult terrain poses a very big technical challenge to construction of rail links to J&K. However, it is nothing that a little investment cannot fix.The problem is that IR is cash strapped.

Also the focus is not on rail connectivity to J&K. I assure you, if we have a Railway minister from J&K, not only will there be 3-4 new rail links to J&K announced every year, but 5-6 rail coach factories as well


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Guyz stop dreaming about Indian Kashmir be content with what you have. *We don't want any part of Pakistan.*
You have tried every trick in the book from wars, infiltration, insurgency, terrorist activity in India to dialogue nothing has worked alas kashmir is still with India and will remain that way.


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## Prometheus

prodevelopment said:


> As someone who works in Indian Railways, I can tell you that the difficult terrain poses a very big technical challenge to construction of rail links to J&K. However, it is nothing that a little investment cannot fix.The problem is that IR is cash strapped.
> 
> Also the focus is not on rail connectivity to J&K. I assure you, if we have a Railway minister from J&K, not only will there be 3-4 new rail links to J&K announced every year, but 5-6 rail coach factories as well



well there was anoncement in budget about rail link to leh-ladakh.

about Rail link in valley................according to planning it should had been completed a decade ago.............work still going on.

IR is cash trapped???...............oh yaar isnt railways running in huge profit???


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## desiman

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It has been discussed thread bare in discussions between Toxic and I, Pakistan did not violate the UNSC resolutions.
> 
> Please read through them and offer some new arguments supporting your POV or negating mine instead of just repeating your premise, which I believe has been shown to be false.



its easy to get on the guys back and prove him wrong, but what he said is quite right. Just like many other issues, the story being put out is very different than the reality. India's efforts to push peace and prosperity in the valley are amazing and the stark difference between Indian Kashmir and "Azad Kashmir " is a true testament to that. Like it or not the so called Kashmir movement is dying down and its quite apparent to see that. Unless and until another war is provoked to somehow charge up the so called movement again, the days of the so called " Freedom Fighters " are numbered.


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## prodevelopment

We all know how IR is in profits. Our assets are 100 yrs old and we haven't tried to build sufficient new lines.

Back to J&K, I just thought of another practical reason to promote SEZs.

One of the reasons why private industry hesitates to invest in J&K is due to security issues. It would be logistically easier the state govt to provide security to all companies at the same place rather than scattered industries.


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## desiman

India must bump up its investments in Kashmir even more, the prosperity and well being of Indian Kashmiri's is of paramount importance. External influences can then be easily negated. Salute to the Indian armed Forces for allowing such initiatives to prosper in the valley.


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## prodevelopment

desiman said:


> India must bump up its investments in Kashmir even more, the prosperity and well being of Indian Kashmiri's is of paramount importance. External influences can then be easily negated. Salute to the Indian armed Forces for allowing such initiatives to prosper in the valley.



Everyone agrees that there are GOVERNMENT jobs available in J&K, not PRIVATE jobs. And the private sector does not respond to such sentiments. As long as projects will not be financially viable and secure from political/social risks, private investment will not come to J&K. So not only should the govt look to invest in J&K, but they should make it an attractive destination for private investments.


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## indian_muslim

REPEAL ARTICLE 370


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## indian_muslim

REPEAL ARTICLE 370


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Sopore Tense, Shut Down Continues for 3rd Day​*


> Srinagar, May 04 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, over fifty thousand civilians have been detained under the draconian law, Public Safety Act, during the last twenty one years of the uprising against Indian occupation. This was revealed by the President of the Bar Association of the occupied territory, Mian Abdul Qayoom, while talking to Kashmir Media Service in Srinagar, today.
> 
> The draconian law authorizes the occupation authorities to detain a person for a period upto two years without producing him before a court of law.
> 
> Mian Abdul Qayoom said that presently 800 to 900 persons were behind the bars under the Public Safety Act and it was invoked against 250 Kashmiris only in the current year. He said during a period of one year, the draconian law was slapped seven times on APHC leader, Shabbir Ahmed Shah, eight times on Mussarat Alam Butt and four times each on Muhammad Yousaf Mir, Ghulam Nabi Sumji, Hafizullah and Bilal Siddiqi.
> 
> Later, Mian Abdul Qayoom and the vice president of the Bar, Aijaz Beidar visited Bandipore to express solidarity with the families of illegally detained civilians.
> 
> Meanwhile, Sopore remained tense for the third day, today, over the killing of a youth. The locals told mediamen that the killing was the handiwork of Indian troops. All markets and educational institutions remained closed and transport was off the road.
> 
> A bomb blast occurred, today, in the Hari Singh High Street area of Srinagar without causing any causality. An army trooper committed suicide by hanging himself on a ceiling fan at an army camp in Udhampur. This has brought the number of such deaths amongst the troops to 176 since January 2007.
> 
> In London, the Executive Director of Kashmir Centre, Professor Nazir Ahmed Shawl, in a statement, deplored the silence of the international community over the discovery of unnamed graves in the occupied territory.




50,000 Kashmiris detained under draconian law | Kashmir Media Service


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## Windjammer

The so called world's biggest democracy yet again proves it's credentials.

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## RobbieS

Windjammer said:


> The so called world's biggest democracy yet again proves it's credentials.



The so called thekedars of Muslims show their double standards!

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## indian_muslim

What are the teachings of islam regarding the kashmir situation?

Are there grounds for a legitimate jihad?

I am against the jihad in kashmir, I would like the opinion of my pakistani muslim brothers on this issue.

Please keep your discussion limited to the conflict in terms of islam, no social or political reasons are allowed.


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## Materialistic

> What are the teachings of islam regarding the kashmir situation?
> 
> Are there grounds for a legitimate jihad?
> 
> I am against the jihad in kashmir, I would like the opinion of my pakistani muslim brothers on this issue.
> 
> Please keep your discussion limited to the conflict in terms of islam, no social or political reasons are allowed.



Since you have asked about the legitimacy of Jihad from Islamic point of view, i would first elaborate what is Jihad and then its legitimacy in relation with Kashmir issue.

*Jihad* is always mistakenly taken as a fight between Muslims and Non-muslims or its considered (by non muslims) as a license to kill non-muslims.

But in reality Jihad means struggle, an effort of good against the evil. It doesn't mean only fighting and killing. There are around Six types of Jihad and i don't remember them all now but a few of them are here: 

1- *Jihad bilLisan **(with tongue)*is concerned with speaking the truth, speaking the right and spreading the word of Islam with one's tongue.
2- *Jihad BiSaif The lesser Jihad** (with Sword/weapon)* this refers to fighting for defending Ummah or a Islamic state. This is regarded as Lesser Jihad.
3- *Jihad-biNafs -Jihad Al-akbar **(against your ownself)** THE GREAT JIHAD* is concerned with combatting the devil and in the attempt to escape his persuasion to evil(preventing yourself from committing sins). This type of Jihad was regarded as the greater jihad
4- *Jihad BilYad* *(with hand)* refers to choosing to do what is right and to combat injustice and what is wrong with action.

*Jihad Bilsaif is not the first solution to any situation and it is first to be declared by a government or a higher authority consisting of Scholars (perhaps incase a governmental authority is missing).*

*And also there are certain conditions when jihad becomes viable.*

*-To Put an end to Fitna* If a person wishes to becomes a Muslim, and there's someone to stop him by force or bribery, that's a fitna! but fitna is not just limited till there.

*-To regain Muslim territories which have been coerced by the non Muslims.*

*-Self defense.*

*-To punish them for breaking a truce.*

*
-If they kill a Muslim / Muslims, specially an ambassador, it is necessary to get the Qisas (revenge). If they refuse, then we gotta take it by force.(kashmir issue)*

*-When the weak Muslims are being oppressed(Kashmir case). Even If the Non Muslims ask for help & assistance, then they must be helped too.*

*And its not compulsory for everyone. *
-It depends of on a Mans ability to fight.
-Permission from parents.
-Only for Men.
-Age of accountability.

_To start a jihad there is a need of declaration by government of that particular country.

The fight has to end if the enemy stops the fight or doesn't want to, no matter how much loss is taken it has to be stopped.

No Old aged people, women, children, animals, pets and plants should be damaged in Jihad, its haram._

*It should be the last resort, other options to solve the dispute are to be considered first.*

*In kashmir case, there have been killings of innocent people,womens are raped and totured. Kashmiris are oppressed and they are under Indian control by force against their will. Since the people of kashmir posses a right of freedom and right to take decisions of their own land but they are denied these basic rights, so Jihad becomes legitimate.

If we suppose that there has been no violation of human rights of kashmiris by India but still Kashmiris think and consider it better to gain independence in their own interests other than just to break apart a country, even then they cannot be denied. Because its their land and they are the first people of that land than any other in India or even the Government.

I have explained every thing based on the Islamic concepts and there is no personal opinion involved in it, I hope this helps.*


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## brahmastra

religious discussion is not allowed.


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## Materialistic

> religious discussion is not allowed.



*There is no such thing mentioned in the Rules!!!!!*
*And if it is said with just an intent or point of view to keep religious stuff away from the forum. In that case you yourself have a very religious signature.*

_Yada yada hi dharmasya Glanir bhavati bharata 
Abhyutthanam adharmasya Tadatmanam srjamy aham
~ Bhagavad Gita (Chapter IV-7)_


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## brahmastra

^^ I have no problem discussing religion. its just mods who don't like it because after 20/30 posts, its gets ugly even before that.


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## Materialistic

> I have no problem discussing religion. its just mods who don't like it because after 20/30 posts, its gets ugly even before that.



arite.. well in that case, mods delete it if it gets ugly


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## Abhiras

Forrest Griffin said:


> your* hindu *Kashmiri boss *opinion is irrelevant*. *hindus are a minority in Kashmir.*
> 
> Goodbye you "old mature person" ...what a joke.



Well if kashmiri hindus openion is irrelevant in kashmir because they are in minority....
then by applying your theory 
then kashmiri muslims opinion is also irrelevant in india because they are also minority in india


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## KS

Forrest Griffin said:


> your hindu Kashmiri boss opinion is irrelevant. hindus are a minority in Kashmir.
> 
> Goodbye you "old mature person" ...what a joke.



Good the mods ban ppl with ur mindset...wat happens if we think Kahmiri muslims are a minority in the whole of India..?

nd serioulsy the Govt of India shuld repeal Article 370 to address Forrest's grievance...


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## araz

Bang Galore said:


> A pity that it didn't happen in Musharraf's time. He gets a lot of bad press in Pakistan and was seen as a villain in India for his role in Kargil and while he deserves that, he did make some serious efforts towards peace in the later years of his administration. Also as chief of the army, he would have pretty much committed the army to the deal something which will be seen as a stumbling block with the present dispensation.
> 
> This is pretty much the only deal that India will ever be agreeable to (loose borders, more autonomy). The longer it takes to get there, the more time we are stuck with all this hatred.



I dont think the Army would disagree to the solution to kashmir crisis.It has the most to loose if hostilities break out. It has always been a political witches brew churned up by politicians from both sides to keep their seats in the respective parlianments. However, the 2 countries reaching nuclear threshold has made people realize that a war in the region would have disasterous consequences and there is an URGENT need to solve all outstanding problems to avoid any major reason for a skirmish getting out of hand.
Araz
Araz


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## karan.1970

*4 more sent to jahannum...Unfortunately 2 of our brave soldiers also made the supreme sacrifice. May they Rest in Peace*

4 militants, 2 jawans killed in gunbattle: Rediff.com India News

Four terrorists and two army jawans were killed in a gunbattle between the two sides in Baramulla district of north Kashmir [ Images ] on Friday morning.

Acting on a tip off, the army cordoned Rafiabad village, 65 km from Srinagar [ Images ], in the wee hours, Defence Spokesman Lt Col J S Brar said.

He said as the search party reached the house where the militants were hiding, the ultras opened fire and in the ensuing gunbattle four militants and two jawans were killed.

The gunbattle was going on when last reports came in.


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## KS

karan.1970 said:


> *4 more sent to jahannum...Unfortunately 2 of our brave soldiers also made the supreme sacrifice. May they Rest in Peace*
> 
> 4 militants, 2 jawans killed in gunbattle: Rediff.com India News
> 
> Four terrorists and two army jawans were killed in a gunbattle between the two sides in Baramulla district of north Kashmir [ Images ] on Friday morning.
> 
> Acting on a tip off, the army cordoned Rafiabad village, 65 km from Srinagar [ Images ], in the wee hours, Defence Spokesman Lt Col J S Brar said.
> 
> He said as the search party reached the house where the militants were hiding, the ultras opened fire and in the ensuing gunbattle four militants and two jawans were killed.
> 
> The gunbattle was going on when last reports came in.




4 terrorist scums - :

2 marytrs - ...may they Rest In Peace.


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## Prometheus

RIP the Indian soldiers


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## blueoval79

^^^^

Are nahi yaar.....they have gone to Jannat.....as they have got Sahadat.......and now they will swim in rivers full of Milk and get daily massage from Virgins.....

ROFL


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## Areesh

To the freedom fighters... may they rest in peace. 

To the tools of the tyranny that died.


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## Mirza Jatt

great news...more terrorists killed.

May the indian martyrs RIP.


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## Marxist

RIP brave Indian soldiers


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## kak1978

Village drummers, traditional Kashmiri songs, rose petals and sweets greeted Dr Shah Faisal, who stood first in the 2010 IAS topper when he arrived home in Srinagar [ Images ] on Friday afternoon.

Watch the videos here
IAS topper comes home amidst hugs, cheers - Videos - India - IBNLive

Dad's killing changed my life: IAS topper

The Gul Bahar colony home of the Shahs had been illuminated with electric lights as a group of village drummers from Faisal's north Kashmir [ Images ] Sogam village greeted their hero.

Dressed smartly in a black suit and bubbling with joy and confidence, the 27-year old local doctor who was received by relatives, friends, neighbours and some local RTI activists could just not have expected more. His mother Mubeena, a school teacher, was unable to control tears.

Women inside the house were singing traditional Kashmiri welcome songs as rose petals were showered on their hero by well-wishers, relatives and friends.

The festivities in the home started yesterday immediately after the news was flashed that Faisal had topped the IAS select list. 

Faisal has a humble background.

Born to middle class parents in north Kashmir's Sogam village in Kupwara district, 120, km from Srinagar, Shah Faisal passed his Class 10 exam from a government school in his native village.

His father, Gulam Rasool Shah, a school teacher was killed by unknown militants in 2002 and that is when his mother, Mubeena decided to shift to Srinagar along with her three children, Faisal, Shah Nawaz and daughter Tilat.

Faisal was admitted to the Tyndale Biscoe Memorial School in Srinagar from where he passed his plus two exams before being selected to the Jhelum Valley Medical College for the MBBS course.

"He stood first in the MBBS exams and later did his internship from. He decided to sit for the civil services preliminary exams. After passing his prelims, Shah Faisal did his coaching for the main exams from the Jamia Milia Islamia in Delhi [ Images ].

"I knew he would do the entire family proud one day and that moment of reckoning his come in our family today", said mother Mubeena

Faisal's younger brother, Shah Nawaz is also a doctor while his sister, Tilat is a teacher in a village school in Sogam.

Shah Nawaz said he had no doubt that Faisal would make it to the coveted IAS, but was not very sure that his brother would stand at the top of the country's most coveted select list this year.

"Allah has answered our prayers and today we bow our heads before Allah."

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## ramu

It is high time Kashmir becomes a major player in main stream politics. People who are for peace and who want the people of Kashmir to prosper should come forward in to the system. No system is perfect or even workable if the system is elitist. Common people like this IAS topper should leave a mark on Kashmir and pave the way for many to take this path.


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## kak1978

graphican said:


> This is an unfortunate incident that a 11 days old baby passed away.. but who was that 11 years old baby going to become? A surviver under Indian occupation? I pray that 11 years old baby had survived so he could have joined those protesters and had acted against occupying forces under Indian uniform.



He could have become an IAS officer if he chose to!!!!!

*Kashmiri is IAS Topper *

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Village drummers, traditional Kashmiri songs, rose petals and sweets greeted Dr Shah Faisal, who stood first in the 2010 IAS topper when he arrived home in Srinagar [ Images ] on Friday afternoon.

Watch the video here
IAS topper comes home amidst hugs, cheers - Videos - India - IBNLive


The Gul Bahar colony home of the Shahs had been illuminated with electric lights as a group of village drummers from Faisal's north Kashmir [ Images ] Sogam village greeted their hero.

Dressed smartly in a black suit and bubbling with joy and confidence, the 27-year old local doctor who was received by relatives, friends, neighbours and some local RTI activists could just not have expected more. His mother Mubeena, a school teacher, was unable to control tears.

Women inside the house were singing traditional Kashmiri welcome songs as rose petals were showered on their hero by well-wishers, relatives and friends.

The festivities in the home started yesterday immediately after the news was flashed that Faisal had topped the IAS select list. 

Faisal has a humble background.

Born to middle class parents in north Kashmir's Sogam village in Kupwara district, 120, km from Srinagar, Shah Faisal passed his Class 10 exam from a government school in his native village.

His father, Gulam Rasool Shah, a school teacher was killed by unknown militants in 2002 and that is when his mother, Mubeena decided to shift to Srinagar along with her three children, Faisal, Shah Nawaz and daughter Tilat.

Faisal was admitted to the Tyndale Biscoe Memorial School in Srinagar from where he passed his plus two exams before being selected to the Jhelum Valley Medical College for the MBBS course.

"He stood first in the MBBS exams and later did his internship from. He decided to sit for the civil services preliminary exams. After passing his prelims, Shah Faisal did his coaching for the main exams from the Jamia Milia Islamia in Delhi [ Images ].

"I knew he would do the entire family proud one day and that moment of reckoning his come in our family today", said mother Mubeena

Faisal's younger brother, Shah Nawaz is also a doctor while his sister, Tilat is a teacher in a village school in Sogam.

Shah Nawaz said he had no doubt that Faisal would make it to the coveted IAS, but was not very sure that his brother would stand at the top of the country's most coveted select list this year.

"Allah has answered our prayers and today we bow our heads before Allah."


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## RobbieS

Dad killed by ultras, doctor from Kashmir tops IAS - India - The Times of India

NEW DELHI/SRINAGAR: He comes from a remote village in Kupwara district of strife-torn Kashmir and studied in a village school. Eight years ago, his father was gunned down by militants. But Dr Shah Faisal, a 26-year-old MBBS, has fought the odds and won. On Thursday, Faisal became the first Kashmiri ever to top the civil services exam.

"I don't have words to express how I feel, I am not able to speak. I just wish I was with my family. I am just waiting to hug my mother," Faisal, who came to the capital before the results to "get away from the stress of waiting", told TOI.

Even through the elation, Faisal gets emotional at the mention of Kashmir. Describing himself as a victim of conflict, he says, "I have watched the bloodshed in Kashmir very closely. I was devastated when my father Ghulam Rasool Shah was gunned down. It is him that I miss the most today. He used to dote on me and taught me English and maths when I studied in school," he says.

In Srinagar, his mother Mubeena Begum, thrilled beyond words, says, "Faisal has made every Kashmiri proud with his hard work and dedication."

Her husband, she says, was killed because he refused shelter to militants. Ironically, it was the tragedy that opened a window to the wider world for the family. "After the killing, I shifted from village Sheikh Nar in Lolab Sogam area of Kupwara to Srinagar with my children ^ two sons and a daughter. My elder son Shah Faisal had done his class X from Sogam high school while my two other children were in middle school there. I was a broken woman but never gave up and fought against all odds to bring up my children," says Mubeena, a teacher, like her husband.

Faisal, who did his MBBS from Srinagar's Sher-i-Kashmir Medical College, says he was confident of qualifying but never imagined he would be right on top. His mission now is to serve his people in the strife torn area of Kashmir. "I wanted to serve my people and in the role of an IAS officer I would like to reduce the communication gap between the people and the administration. I will give audience to them to hear their problems, cares and worries. I want to bring a change, especially for women and the youth," he says, insisting that he never received any formal training for the UPSC exam.

Among his inspirations, Faisal counts an IPS officer from his state. "I was inspired by one Abdul Gani Mir of my area in Kupwara, who passed his IPS in 1994. I have been in touch with him since 2007, when I thought of sitting for the civil services exams," he says. Gani is currently DIG, CID in Jammu and Kashmir Police.

Faisal's younger brother Shah Nawaz is also a doctor while his younger sister Talat Shah is a library assistant.


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## karan.1970

*The figure of 4 scum climbs to 6.. Two more gunned down. Yaaay! Indian Army .... Way to go*


Six militants, two soldiers killed in gunbattle in north Kashmir, operation on- Hindustan Times


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## Prometheus

Areesh said:


> To the freedom fighters... may they rest in peace.
> 
> To the tools of the tyranny that died.




Hope those so called freedom fighters were from Kashmir not from anywhere else


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## indian-army

send all of them in hell

great job by army 
i salute them


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## Kabir Panthi

RobbieS said:


> Even through the elation, Faisal gets emotional at the mention of Kashmir. Describing himself as a victim of conflict, he says, "I have watched the bloodshed in Kashmir very closely. I was devastated when my father Ghulam Rasool Shah was gunned down. It is him that I miss the most today. He used to dote on me and taught me English and maths when I studied in school," he says.
> 
> In Srinagar, his mother Mubeena Begum, thrilled beyond words, says, "Faisal has made every Kashmiri proud with his hard work and dedication."
> 
> *Her husband, she says, was killed because he refused shelter to militants. Ironically, it was the tragedy that opened a window to the wider world for the family.*



One has the deepest respect for Faisal, and especially for his brave mother Mubeena Begum. Her enormous courage, after seeing her husband gunned down by terrorists, is moving.


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## karan.1970

*2 more bite the dust* 


J&K: Forces bust hideouts, kill 2 terrorists: Rediff.com India News

Two terrorists were killed in a fierce gunbattle with security forces who smashed two ultra hideouts and seized a huge cache of arms and ammunition in Kashmir [ Images ] valley on Saturday.

Security forces, acting on specific information that some militants were hiding in Shah Nagri Forest in Handwara, some 80 km from Srinagar [ Images ], cordoned off the area, official sources said.

As the troops zeroed in on the militants, they opened fire triggering a gunbattle in which two ultras were killed, they said.

The identity and group affiliations of the slain terrorists were yet to be ascertained, the sources said. 

Security forces also busted two militant hideouts and seized a large quantity of arms and ammunition in the valley. 

A hideout each was smashed in Tral belt in Southern Pulwama and in Kangan area in Ganderbal district, the sources said.

The seizure included two rifles, five rockets, several hand grenades, an Under Barrel Grenade Launcher, an IED fitted on a gas cylinder, a Pak-made pistol and an AK magazine with 14 rounds.


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## Mirza Jatt

great news.....


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## dabong1

indian-army said:


> 2 more pigs(terrorist) send to gutter(hell)



Calm down with the insults please.


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## dabong1

Prometheus said:


> Hope those so called freedom fighters were from Kashmir not from anywhere else



Would it make a difference to your perceptions if the freedom fighters where kashmiris?


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## indian-army

dabong1 said:


> Calm down with the insults please.



do u think we have to use sophisticated words with terrorist??


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## dabong1

indian-army said:


> do u think we have to use sophisticated words with terrorist??



4 militants, 2 jawans killed in gunbattle: Rediff.com India News

Its not that hard for me to start insulting the dead indian army soldiers but all thats going to do is derail the thread into name calling that gets nobody anywhere.
I find it offensive that you call the the freedom fighters "terrorist" but i can understand that from an indian point of view that how you see it.By insulting the dead freedom fighters by calling them "pigs" will end up getting negative reaction.

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## Iggy

dabong1 said:


> 4 militants, 2 jawans killed in gunbattle: Rediff.com India News
> 
> Its not that hard for me to start insulting the dead indian army soldiers but all thats going to do is derail the thread into name calling that gets nobody anywhere.
> I find it offensive that you call the the freedom fighters "terrorist" but i can understand that from an indian point of view that how you see it.By insulting the dead freedom fighters by calling them "pigs" will end up getting negative reaction.




With due respect sir,for you he may be freedom fighter..but for us he is just a cowrd pig trying kill our citizens..there is no disrespect in calling them pigs..in your country there are also separatist movement and do you give respect to those who engage in it?the answer will be no right??same goes for us..they are not your soldiers..they are just plain terrorists trying to destabilize my country..they may be heroes for you but not for us ..hope you understand ..


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## jagjitnatt

dabong1 said:


> 4 militants, 2 jawans killed in gunbattle: Rediff.com India News
> 
> Its not that hard for me to start insulting the dead indian army soldiers but all thats going to do is derail the thread into name calling that gets nobody anywhere.
> I find it offensive that you call the the freedom fighters "terrorist" but i can understand that from an indian point of view that how you see it.By insulting the dead freedom fighters by calling them "pigs" will end up getting negative reaction.



Kindly don't tell Indians who people on Indian soil are. They are who we claim them to be.

Bombing and killing innocent people is no way of achieving freedom.

You keep yourself limited to your country and we do the same. You wouldn't love it if we started calling Balochistani freedom fighters. Its your matter so we leave it to you.

Similary leave this matter to us.

6 more militants sent to HELL. And I am proud of it. RIP to the brave soldiers.


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## SpArK

Good job by army.


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## Areesh

To the brave freedom fighters. Great work boys may you rest in peace. You are really brave. You don't commit suicides and also don't gun fight with each other. 

Salute to you guys. The unknown soldiers of the fight against the evil.

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## dabong1

seiko said:


> With due respect sir,for you he may be freedom fighter..but for us he is just a cowrd pig trying kill our citizens..there is no disrespect in calling them pigs..



Well with all due respect the indian terrorist scumbag *** that is killing innocent people in kashmir gets what he deserves....a place in hell.



seiko said:


> in your country there are also separatist movement and do you give respect to those who engage in it?the answer will be no right??



Theres loads of separatist movement in india but non have a UN resoultion hanging over them or are recognized worldwide as disputed area.



seiko said:


> same goes for us..they are not your soldiers..they are just plain terrorists trying to destabilize my country..



Kashmir is not part of your country and the brave freedonm fighters are just fighting against the indian terrorist occupation army.



seiko said:


> they may be heroes for you but not for us ..hope you understand ..



They are heros to me and many others while the indian occupation army are seen as killers......i hope you understand my point and dont take offence.


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## dabong1

jagjitnatt said:


> Kindly don't tell Indians who people on Indian soil are. They are who we claim them to be.



I wan not telling any indian what they can and cant do on indian soil.....i was talking about kashmir and not india.




jagjitnatt said:


> Bombing and killing innocent people is no way of achieving freedom.



But its i okay for ther indian occupation forces to bomb and kill the kashmiris to stop them acheving freedom?



jagjitnatt said:


> You keep yourself limited to your country and we do the same. You wouldn't love it if we started calling Balochistani freedom fighters. Its your matter so we leave it to you.



Kashmir is an international issue with UN resoultion in place while Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram, Nagaland, Tripur,Bihar ,maoist naxalites ect and Balochistani are not international issue.



jagjitnatt said:


> Similary leave this matter to us.



Lets include all the non UN and non international movements starting with Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram, Nagaland, Tripur,Bihar......or shall we just stick the internationally recognized dispute



jagjitnatt said:


> 6 more militants sent to HELL. And I am proud of it. RIP to the brave soldiers.



Two india killers sent on a one way ticket to hell......i think i will be handing out sweets


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## karan.1970

a good case in point on why India and Pakistan can never have fruiteful talks on this topic..

And now that all of us have let the steam off, lets chill till the next news on this front.. which Inshah Allah would be of the above nature only...I hear from a friend in army whose unit is stationed in Kashmir that the ferquency of army patrols with a more aggressive stance has more than tripled in last 6 months.. Hence so many encounters... Looks like the new infantry equipment (though less glamorous than MRCA but equally effective) is making its mark

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## Iggy

dabong1 said:


> They will be an inspiration to the peoples of Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram, Nagaland, Tripur,Bihar ,Punjab ect.



 Bihar??????Arunachal Pradesh???yea right??very insightful.as for rest of the states most of the bastards who kills people were already went to heaven,..hope the pigs who is disturbing peace in Kashmir will share their virgins with them


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## Iggy

dabong1 said:


> Well with all due respect the indian terrorist scumbag *** that is killing innocent people in kashmir gets what he deserves....a place in hell.



yes same as the scumbags *** who died killing Baluchistan freedom fighers... see i can insult your soldiers too..so dont get started it mate..



> Theres loads of separatist movement in india but non have a UN resoultion hanging over them or are recognized worldwide as disputed area.



so is it gonna change the facts that they are terrorists??or for you only people who kill muslims are terrorists and rest are heroes??



> Kashmir is not part of your country and the brave freedonm fighters are just fighting against the indian terrorist occupation army.



Kashmir will always a part of India and will remain a part of India no matter how may Ajmal Kasabs you send to us..



> They are heros to me and many others while the indian occupation army are seen as killers......i hope you understand my point and dont take offence.




They are heroes for you then good for you..for me they are just pigs and cowards trying to kill innocents and disturb the peace of my country..They are like what TTP or a Baluchi freedom fighter to you..


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## karan.1970

Looks like its 3 additional terrorists killed instead of 2 .. Oh well, the more the merrier 

Three militants killed, 60-kg explosives seized in J&K

A Hizbul Mujahideen militant was killed and a policeman wounded in the exchange of fire between security forces and ultras at Mahore in Jammu division's Reasi district.

The gunbattle, in which a police constable was wounded, was still on as another militant was believed to be trapped in the area, police said.

The injured policeman was airlifted to Jammu city for treatment.


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## ahmed_naj

*Slain Militant Was Civilian, Says Aghast Rafiabad *


Srinagar, May 08, KONS: Massive protests flared up in the Rafiabad area of Baramulla on Saturday after one of the six militants claimed by the army to have been killed in Fridays encounters was described by locals as a civilian.
Though the army is silent on the allegation, a top police officer claimed that the victim had disappeared from home two days ago, but his family had come to file a missing persons report only after fighting started in the forests.
Violence broke out today when a large procession of marchers carrying the victims body was heavily cane-charged and tear gassed at Batpora near the Baramulla highway, and even the pall-bearers fled leaving the coffin behind on being severely targeted by the forces.
*The marchers alleged that the victim had been taken by the army as a guide and later shot dead to be labeled as a militant.
Thousands of people had taken to the streets on Saturday morning after the body of 22-year-old Ghulam Muhammad Kumhar was handed over to his family in Takiabal*, Panzala following identification.
The district administration has ordered an inquiry into Kumhars killing, saying that the agency responsible would be called to account.
The police which also used aerial firing to break up the villagers march, took the body into custody once again during the violence that left scores injured.
The forces resorted to firing in Rohama also where a large number of people had staged a sit-in against the killing, even as angry crowds attacked a police motorcade in a nearby locality.
The victims father, Muhammad Subhan, said that his son was neither a militant nor linked to any group.
Personnel from some unknown agency picked him up from the PHE quarters where he lived late on Thursday evening after he had returned from work, and we recovered his body from the Dogarpora village, Subhan said.
The KNS quoted locals as saying that the army had taken Kumhar as a guide the previous day, and they received the news of his death today.
Civil and police officers of the district administration assured agitated villagers that preliminary investigations into the incident had begun.
The deputy commissioner persuaded the villagers to bury the body, promising action against whoever was responsible for the killing.
The officer said that the locals had described the victim as an ordinary villager while the army had put him down as a militant.
Therefore, the police has been ordered to undertake immediate investigations. A missing persons report has already been lodged in the police station, he said.
When asked whether a first information report (FIR) had been registered in the case, the deputy commissioner told the KNS that the investigation was in its preliminary stage.
The deputy inspector general (DIG) of the police for Baramulla told the KNS that Kumhar had suddenly disappeared from his home two days ago, but his family had not lodged a report at that time.
But when firing started, they came to the police station to file a missing persons report, he said.
The DIG said that Kumhar had been seen with the two militants killed in the home of one Firdous Ahmad Margay, 15 km away.
It is obvious that he was either assisting militants or directly working for them, he said.


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## Paksindhi

Why dont u open ur TV channel's like, Time's now or NDTV and see how local kashmiri's r reacting to this new drama from indian army.

I have been following indian news station's for quiet some some time now.

They alway's report how many freedom fighter's went to heaven, but never report or under report how many of indian army soldier's went to hell in encounter.

This is a guerrilla warfare, and we r not short of them, some times kashmir some time else where.

But make no mistake they will keep coming at u, some times in valley, and some times in dinning room of TAJ.

Have a nice dinner


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## karan.1970

Paksindhi said:


> Why dont u open ur TV channel's like, Time's now or NDTV and see how local kashmiri's r reacting to this new drama from indian army.
> 
> I have been following indian news station's for quiet some some time now.
> 
> They alway's report how many freedom fighter's went to heaven, but never report or under report how many of indian army soldier's went to hell in encounter.
> 
> This is a guerrilla warfare, and we r not short of them, some times kashmir some time else where.
> 
> But make no mistake they will keep coming at u, some times in valley, and some times in dinning room of TAJ.
> 
> Have a nice dinner



If you read carefully you will also see the reports of IA casualties in this operation..


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## Prometheus

Paksindhi said:


> Why dont u open ur TV channel's like, Time's now or NDTV and see how local kashmiri's r reacting to this new drama from indian army.
> 
> I have been following indian news station's for quiet some some time now.
> 
> They alway's report how many freedom fighter's went to heaven, but never report or under report how many of indian army soldier's went to hell in encounter.
> 
> This is a guerrilla warfare, and we r not short of them, some times kashmir some time else where.
> 
> But make no mistake they will keep coming at u, some times in valley, and some times in dinning room of TAJ.
> 
> Have a nice dinner



Before commenting close mindedly...........you reaD THE NEWS

2 soldiers died.


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## KS

dabong1 said:


> Freedom comes at a price......just as long we keep killing the india vermin that is stinking kashmir out we will win.



hahaha..keep dreaming...the vermin that u want to kill are infact killing ur piglet scums..nd remember ur not not keeeping us out of Kashmir..we r keeping u scums out of Kashmir...




dabong1 said:


> Make your minds up.......one minute theres no ummah helping the kashmiris and then the next you accuse the ummah of helping there brothers.
> They can come from anywhere in the world to help the kashmiris and they are freedom fighters.



Please keep ur Ummah out of this....were is Ummah wen u guys were killing each other in Iran-iraq,Yemen etc..?
nd y dont u advise the PA to accord the same respect to the chechens,uzbeks,arabs who come to fight ur army since they r collaborating with Unkil..?






dabong1 said:


> The indian sumbag army might be heros in your eyes to but to kashmiris there nothing but monkeys with guns.



Can u define Kashmiris..?according to me the 4 million displaced Pandits are also Kashmiris..they dont hate IA..The ruksana begums,the jawans from Kashmir serving in IA...are they not Kashmiris..?





dabong1 said:


> No.....theres nomfreedom struggle taking place there unlike kashmir.



Yes there is a freedom struggle going on in Baluchistan.. Y dont u give freedom to the opressed and the repressed ppl there..?


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## asq

Bingo! said:


> Maybe its time to ask the people of east pakistan whether they want to join Pakistan



Usual Indian spin, thought to be clever by writer, but pointless.


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## Areesh

Paksindhi said:


> Why dont u open ur TV channel's like, Time's now or NDTV and see how local kashmiri's r reacting to this new drama from indian army.
> 
> I have been following indian news station's for quiet some some time now.
> 
> They alway's report how many freedom fighter's went to heaven, but never report or under report how many of indian army soldier's went to hell in encounter.
> 
> This is a guerrilla warfare, and we r not short of them, some times kashmir some time else where.
> 
> But make no mistake they will keep coming at u, some times in valley, and some times in dinning room of TAJ.
> 
> Have a nice dinner



yeah you may be right. They are always ready to kick their a**. Just change the terrain and the strategy.


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## EjazR

*Meet the sons of soil who made Kashmir proud: India Today*

Shah Faesal is the first Kashmiri Muslim to top the IAS exam. But there are others in his community who, rather than imbibing anti-India sentiments and treading the beaten track, went on to make the nation proud.

For many Kashmiri Muslims, the army is the ultimate symbol of "India's occupation of Kashmir". The men in olive green are perceived alternately as occupiers and protectors.

And never have the Kashmiri Muslims had one of their own in the higher ranks of the army they love to vilify.

*But that was until Major-General Mohammed Amin Naik breached the dividing wall in 2008. In April that year, he became the first Kashmiri Muslim to become a General in the Indian Army.*

When Major-General Naik, then a Brigadier with the Corps of Engineers, was promoted, some Kashmiris had exclaimed: "No longer are we the children of the lesser god." Major-General Naik is a known name in the once-militancy-affected Dadsar area of Tral. Ask anyone about him and he would take you to the General's ancestral house.

In an area where there is universal apathy against men in uniform, affection and admiration for Major-General Naik looks strange.

"He is the son of the soil and we are proud of him," says Muhammad Wasim, a B. Sc. second-year student, who identifies himself as the officer's cousin.

Major-General Naik was born in Pulwama's Batpora village on September 25, 1953. The General studied at the Biscoe School and later joined S. P. College in Srinagar.

On December 22, 1974, he was commissioned into the Corps of Engineers from the Indian Military Academy (IMA), Dehradun. He was the first person to join the army from the district.

Major-General Naik's course mate at the IMA, retired Brigadier S. K. Chatterjee, remembers him as one of the finest fellow cadets.

"And he has grown to be one of the finest officers of the Indian Army that I have had the privilege to know. A thoroughly secular nationalist, Naik is also a sportsman of high repute. He has got the country many medals in rowing from international competitions," Brigadier Chatterjee says.

Major-General Naik was awarded a Sena Medal in 1993 for meritorious service. That included a long stint as civil design engineer and Garrison engineer with the Eastern Naval Command in Vizag. He also commanded 14 Border Roads Task Force in Tanga, 102 Engineering Regiment and 8 Mountain Division Engineering Regiment.

As Brigadier, he was also posted as the chief engineer, Project Himank in Leh, Ladakh. He had a stint at the army headquarters in New Delhi as a general staff officer 1 and was the assistant chief at the Headquarters Integrated Defence Staff, raised in the wake of the Kargil conflict.

Major-General Naik belongs to a family that had long- standing relations with the government. His father, Ghulam Nabi Naik, was a divisional commissioner of Jammu and Kashmir. His two siblings were also in government service - his elder brother, Gul Mohammed Naik, was a forest officer while his sister, Shamim Naik, was a doctor.

*Ducked bullets to reach school:*

Basharat Peer's writings belie his simple beginnings at the local village school, where attending classes was an "exercise in luck", as he puts it.

The noted author was born in the strife-ridden Seer village of Pahalgam in south Kashmir's Anantnag district.

He studied in the local village school - which was later turned into an army camp - till 1993, when he was 16.

That was the time when the anti-India insurgency was at its peak.

"Going to school each day at that time was an exercise in luck, you never knew when a bomb would explode or an encounter would start," Peer says.

Every other day, his classmates and he would jump from buses to hide in streets, behind walls, as impromptu encounters broke out and bullets were sprayed around with abandon, he says.

Worried about Peer's safety in the state, his father G. A Peer - a civil servant - sent him to Aligarh Muslim University (AMU), with the hopes that his son, too, would qualify for the Indian Administrative Services (IAS) after graduation.

At AMU, Peer studied political science and English literature.

At the university, he met many other Kashmiris, driven out of their homes because of the incessant fighting. They told him stories of deaths, curfews, arrests, and all the trappings that one has come to expect with the strife.

Peer completed his graduation but the thoughts of his state never left him, and it formed the basis of many of his subsequent writings.

After completing graduation, Peer never gave his father the impression that he was not interested in the IAS and enrolled himself for the LLB course in Delhi University.

But one day, his parents saw a story authored by him on Rediff. com and they realised their son had chosen to be a journalist.

After Rediff, Peer joined Tehelka and later went to the Columbia School of Journalism.

While in Columbia, he wrote Curfewed Night, a first-hand account of the turbulent times in Kashmir. It is part of his literature which "looks at resistance from within". The book was published by HarperCollins and was simultaneously released in England and the US. Currently, Peer is a fellow at the Open Society Institute.

He has also been an assistant editor at the Foreign Affairs magazine.

Besides, he also writes for other publications such as The Guardian, Financial Times, The National and New Statesman.

*Obama's Muslim representative*

She is no longer an Indian citizen but is a Kashmiri to the hilt nevertheless.

Farah Pandith is currently part of the Barack Obama administration in the US. She is the special representative to Muslim communities at the US state department, a position she was appointed to on June 23 last year.

She was sworn in by secretary of state Hillary Clinton.

Prior to this, she was senior advisor to the assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian Affairs, a position created for the first time in US history.

Pandith was born in Kashmir but emigrated with her mother to Massachusetts in 1969.

She completed her Master's in law and diplomacy in 1995 from the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University and she based her Master's thesis on the insurgency in Kashmir.

Her work on the "War of Ideas" was featured in the inaugural edition of the Washingtonian magazine in January last.

Pandith is currently on the Board of Overseers for the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy. She was also a Trustee of Smith College and Milton Academy.

*From hub of militancy to India colours in football:*

Mehrajuddin Wadoo can't help but feel a little pleased when children in his home state look up to him as someone to be admired. The ace midfielder has only one message for football hopefuls when he visits Kashmir: "Come out of the Valley and play for clubs."

Mehraj says Kashmiris have talent but it is the lack of exposure that comes in their way to success. Hailing from downtown Srinagar, Mehraj is currently playing for East Bengal but humbly says he had never dreamed of reaching where he is today. "Hard work and passion pay at the end of the day," he says. Mehraj was part of the Indian squad that brought home the ONGC Nehru Cup in 2007 and 2009.

He was also part of the national team that played in the South Asian Football Federation Cup in 2008, where they finished runners up. Born in the Rainawari area of downtown Srinagar - the hub of militancy and separatism - on September 13, 1984, he started playing football at the age of eight and, as he proudly says, football is in his genes. His father, Muhammad Sultan Wadoo, was a football player as well. Sultan was the left back of the Food and Supplies Department team. His father would take Mehraj to his practice sessions every day.

Football was Sultan's passion and he was determined Mehraj would follow in his footsteps. And his son didn't disappoint him. Mehraj's journey started from S. P. School in Srinagar, where he played for the school team. With Mehraj on its side, the SP School team won all competitions easily.

As a teenager, he was part of the Jammu and Kashmir Police team and played a crucial role when the team created history by winning the Bikaner Trophy for the first time. In 2002-03, he amazed everyone with his performance when he played for the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in the National Football League. In 2004, he joined the club ITI but it shut down because of financial constraints. Mehraj, however, was not worried. He had many offers and was picked up by Sporting Club de Goa.

He later joined Mohun Bagan but left the club in 2007 to join its arch rival, East Bengal. He instantly changed the club's fortunes by steering them to their first Federation Cup triumph in 11 years.

Mehraj started his career as a striker, then played as a defender and now is a midfielder. Despite all his success, however, he still has one regret: "I couldn't complete my graduation because of the frequent tournaments. I was good at studies, which is why I regret it all the more."

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## Kinetic

Well written article. Kashmirs like other Muslims in India were always integrated as India, for four thousand years at least. Only some people and militants creating problems for development of Kashmir. Don't know how many innocent civilians are dead like Mr. Shah Faisal's father because of militancy! Some civilians were also harassed by security personnel due to militants.

Go Kashmir go.


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## yashchauhan

...other parts continued


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

jagjitnatt said:


> Kindly don't tell Indians who people on Indian soil are. They are who we claim them to be.
> 
> Bombing and killing innocent people is no way of achieving freedom.
> 
> You keep yourself limited to your country and we do the same. You wouldn't love it if we started calling Balochistani freedom fighters. Its your matter so we leave it to you.
> 
> Similary leave this matter to us.
> 
> 6 more militants sent to HELL. And I am proud of it. RIP to the brave soldiers.


Sorry, but on this forum since there are people who support the separatists and freedom fighters, it is expected that while Indians support the operations against insurgents, that they not use abusive language towards the insurgents (such as pigs and what not).

As Dabong pointed out, to do so then opens the doors for those supporting Freedom Fighters in Disputed J&K to call Indian Security forces pigs and other insults.

You can support your government's position without resort to name calling and abuse. If not, the door out is open, and there are plenty of other fora that will humor you on that count.

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## karan.1970

Agno

The name change of the thread is unfair..A little under handed attempt I must say to change the tone of the thread.. You may have your reasons, but I am truly disappointed with the choice of the new title.. 

I dont think the original title was abusive or against the forum rules. It was from a news headline, replicated as is. But if you are adament in changing the title to what you have, I will have to request you to remove my name as the creator of the thread. I dont want my name to be associated with this title, which in my *personal view *is incorrect

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## indian-army

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Sorry, but on this forum since there are people who support the separatists and freedom fighters, it is expected that while Indians support the operations against insurgents, that they not use abusive language towards the insurgents (such as pigs and what not).
> 
> As Dabong pointed out, to do so then opens the doors for those supporting Freedom Fighters in Disputed J&K to call Indian Security forces pigs and other insults.
> 
> You can support your government's position without resort to name calling and abuse. If not, the door out is open, and there are plenty of other fora that will humor you on that count.



so by your point of view freedom fighters kill innocent

so that means terrorist in pakistan are also freedom fighter???
right


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Agno
> 
> The name change of the thread is unfair..A little under handed attempt I must say to change the tone of the thread.. You may have your reasons, but I am truly disappointed with the choice of the new title..
> 
> I dont think the original title was abusive or against the forum rules. It was from a news headline, replicated as is. But if you are adament in changing the title to what you have, I will have to request you to remove my name as the creator of the thread. I dont want my name to be associated with this title, which in my *personal view *is incorrect


No evidence was provided that the militants belonged to the LeT - that was a discussion we had in the beginning.

The individuals fighting the Indian Army are insurgents, and they are pro-Freedom/anti-Indian occupation. I do not see how the current title is factually incorrect. 

I will however make a note in the first post that the title was changed by the moderator.


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## mjnaushad

Just one question. What is "HIJBUL mujahideen"


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

indian-army said:


> so by your point of view freedom fighters kill innocent
> 
> so that means terrorist in pakistan are also freedom fighter???
> right



In this case they are fighting the Indian SF's are they not? When they kill innocents, as in the case of the Indian Army, you can call them terrorists.

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## indian-army

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> In this case they are fighting the Indian SF's are they not? When they kill innocents, as in the case of the Indian Army, you can call them terrorists.



when they kill innocent yes they are ... but no proof for that 

and please tell me wht u called terrorist in pakistan 

mr. freedom fighter


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## WAQAS119

indian-army said:


> so by your point of view freedom fighters kill innocent
> 
> so that means terrorist in pakistan are also freedom fighter???
> right



Agnostic Bhai has given you sufficient answer but let me add that Kashmiri's are fighting for freedom not Tribals.. Tribals are only against America... So you cannot call them freedom fighters.


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## yashchauhan

^^Its Hizbul..sry for it....it a group that is using violence as a measure to resolve the Kashmir issue by hiring people from the valley and supported by GoP and 160 million people(according to him) ...India,EU and US call it a terrorist organization but Pakistanis call it a Freedom Movement....


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No evidence was provided that the militants belonged to the LeT - that was a discussion we had in the beginning.
> 
> The individuals fighting the Indian Army are insurgents, and they are pro-Freedom/anti-Indian occupation. I do not see how the current title is factually incorrect.
> 
> I will however make a note in the first post that the title was changed by the moderator.



As I said.. It began with a news headline and I really dont see every single thread starting with a news headline reviewed for provisions of proof to justify the headline.. But anyway.. Your forum... your call...

Thanks for agreeing to highlight that the title was changed by the Mods and I was not responsible for coming up with this gem..


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## mjnaushad

yashchauhan said:


> ^^Its Hizbul..sry for it....it a group that is using violence as a measure to resolve the Kashmir issue by hiring people from the valley and supported by GoP and 160 million people(according to him) ...India,EU and US call it a terrorist organization but Pakistanis call it a Freedom Movement....


hahaha..............Ok....as you say sir.


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## s90

Groups like these should be dismantled, our society is getting effected by these groups in long run.

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## Prometheus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> In this case they are fighting the Indian SF's are they not? When they kill innocents, as in the case of the Indian Army, you can call them terrorists.



just a question mod..........

recently 2 policeman from my hometown gurdaspur (punjab) died by the bullets of infiltraters..........

can I call them terrorists..........what they were doing in Punjab and killing Sikh Policemen if they want freedom from so called occupation in Valley


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## TaimiKhan

Prometheus said:


> just a question mod..........
> 
> recently 2 policeman from my hometown gurdaspur (punjab) died by the bullets of infiltraters..........
> 
> can I call them terrorists..........what they were doing in Punjab and killing Sikh Policemen if they want freedom from so called occupation in Valley



Do these guys come with LeT ID cards or with some other ID card to say they are infiltrators from across the border ?? 

Every time they martyr the freedom fighters, the Indians say LeT, so what kind of ID cards they use ?? Or is it written on their foreheads that they are from LeT. 

And as for the Sikh policemen killed, was it confirmed it were infiltrators who did it, it may be dakooss, sikh separatists, or even smugglers who were doing some smuggling, anything is possible. 

This is all a propaganda game, thing is something and what is told is something else. 

They may have killed Hizbul Muj guys, but brand them LeT, to bring in or show the paranoia. The policemen may have been killed by smugglers, but termed as infiltrators, and what is the infiltrators are gonna do in Punjab, it is peaceful as it can be.

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## karan.1970

TaimiKhan said:


> Do these guys come with LeT ID cards or with some other ID card to say they are infiltrators from across the border ??
> 
> Every time they martyr the freedom fighters, the Indians say LeT, so what kind of ID cards they use ?? Or is it written on their foreheads that they are from LeT.
> 
> And as for the Sikh policemen killed, was it confirmed it were infiltrators who did it, it may be dakooss, sikh separatists, or even smugglers who were doing some smuggling, anything is possible.
> 
> This is all a propaganda game, thing is something and what is told is something else.
> 
> They may have killed Hizbul Muj guys, but brand them LeT, to bring in or show the paranoia. The policemen may have been killed by smugglers, but termed as infiltrators, and what is the infiltrators are gonna do in Punjab, it is peaceful as it can be.



In which case, how did the mods assert that instead of LeT, they were pro freedom insurgents and changed the thread title to that? They could have been drug smugglers or simple thieves or as a lot of you like to believe, innocent civilians?? Where is the proof of them being pro freedom. Did they leave a letter for Pakistani Army ??


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## yashchauhan

^^^Thats the spirit I want to see!


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## Prometheus

TaimiKhan said:


> Do these guys come with LeT ID cards or with some other ID card to say they are infiltrators from across the border ??
> 
> Every time they martyr the freedom fighters, the Indians say LeT, so what kind of ID cards they use ?? Or is it written on their foreheads that they are from LeT.
> 
> And as for the Sikh policemen killed, was it confirmed it were infiltrators who did it, it may be dakooss, sikh separatists, or even smugglers who were doing some smuggling, anything is possible.
> 
> This is all a propaganda game, thing is something and what is told is something else.
> 
> They may have killed Hizbul Muj guys, but brand them LeT, to bring in or show the paranoia. The policemen may have been killed by smugglers, but termed as infiltrators, and what is the infiltrators are gonna do in Punjab, it is peaceful as it can be.




smuglers dont come with assault rifles with granades with RDX in commado type dress.

*To be a sikh extremist .............atleast you need to have unshorn hairs*

by saying propaganda you wanna say that those policeman are alive somewhere...........and police department is faking their death story???

about Hizbul ...........i didnt talked about them yaar........I am just respectfully asking can I call them terrorists???

Gurdaspur being a border district has been a hub of smugling .......no dout about that................BSF regularly kill people near border........( and non of them came out to be local..........not a propaganda......my house is just 5 km away from border.........and gurdaspur has a tiny population...........)


Peace for all ( specially my troubled Punjab) my childhood went under guns..............dont want it anymore


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## gubbi

@Taimikhan: Why was my post deleted? Wasn't that the bitter truth? I understand that you don't particularly like me, but..here is my simple point.

Many here support the militants calling them freedom fighters and variants thereof. One mod even changed the title to suit the 'sentiments' of some other members. Many here pray for those who come across borders and get killed in their attempt to wreck havoc in the Kashmir valley. 

But none among them have come forth to celebrate the achievements of the Kashmiri doctor who topped the IAS exam or other achievements by the Kashmiris.

You all support Kashmiri freedom, so why don't you all celebrate their achievements? No prayers for the Kashmiri's welfare? Hypocrisy is not lost upon intelligent observers.

*Instead of labeling it as a useless rant, please do provide evidence of Pakistani members support for Kashmiris' achievements instead of their support for the terrorist scumbags! *

*My point still stands*! Unless you *post evidence of support for Kashmiris' welfare, many shall presume that all that Pakistan wants is only the territory in question* as a balm, sorry to say, for a collective fractured ego and failed state policies based on a pseudo-superiority complex of past governments, without as much as a scant thought about the Kashmiris!


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## TaimiKhan

Prometheus said:


> smuglers dont come with assault rifles with granades with RDX in commado type dress.
> 
> *To be a sikh extremist .............atleast you need to have unshorn hairs*
> 
> by saying propaganda you wanna say that those policeman are alive somewhere...........and police department is faking their death story???
> 
> about Hizbul ...........i didnt talked about them yaar........I am just respectfully asking can I call them terrorists???
> 
> Gurdaspur being a border district has been a hub of smugling .......no dout about that................BSF regularly kill people near border........( and non of them came out to be local..........not a propaganda......my house is just 5 km away from border.........and gurdaspur has a tiny population...........)
> 
> 
> Peace for all ( specially my troubled Punjab) my childhood went under guns..............dont want it anymore



I did not said the killed policemen is a fake story, what i meant was that the incident may have been true meaning policemen died, but who killed them, that can be changed or covered up, to give some other face to the incident for some other purpose. 

And yeah for you guys they are terrorist, as it depends from which side you are seeing them. 

Founding fathers of US were rebels / terrorists for British, but for their own nation, they were freedom fighters. 

I believe the discussion has been done on many threads, of how many of the Indian freedom fighters were termed terrorists by British, but India & Pakistan now knows them as freedom fighters who gave their lives for freedom from the british. 

So from Indian pov, you can call them terrorists, but from their and our pov, they are something else.

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## Paksindhi

As Pir sahib said, as long as there is Oppression in this world, there will alway's be reason for Jihad (struggle against oppression).

Long live Kashmir struggle.


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## TaimiKhan

karan.1970 said:


> In which case, how did the mods assert that instead of LeT, they were pro freedom insurgents and changed the thread title to that? They could have been drug smugglers or simple thieves or as a lot of you like to believe, innocent civilians?? Where is the proof of them being pro freedom. Did they leave a letter for Pakistani Army ??



Your Indian Army said, they were killed while coming from across the LOC, and had weapons and other stuff, so it makes them freedom fighters. 

But if they had planted those things on innocent Kashmirs, well that is your IA deed, these innocent still become martyrs. 

And there is no smuggling in Kashmir, we all know that and know which are the smuggling areas.


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## karan.1970

@Prometheus

Let it go.. remember the story of 5 blind men and the elephant. Thats the problem with the Pakistan today. They see this animal of terrorism as seperate groups like AT, LeT, Jaish (pro Pakistan ) and TTP etc (anti Pakistan). Till the day they dont realize that its one big 800 pound gorilla in their house, determined to convert the house into a jungle, they are destined to face its warth on a day in day out basis and get blamed every time there is a terror like incident anywhere in the world..


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## karan.1970

TaimiKhan said:


> Your Indian Army said, they were killed while coming from across the LOC, and had weapons and other stuff, so it makes them freedom fighters.
> 
> But if they had planted those things on innocent Kashmirs, well that is your IA deed, these innocent still become martyrs.
> 
> And there is no smuggling in Kashmir, we all know that and know which are the smuggling areas.



What a self serving though flawed logic..You are willing to believe the part of what Indian Army says because it suites your convinience and reject the part that doesnt ?


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## imran iqbal

TaimiKhan said:


> Do these guys come with LeT ID cards or with some other ID card to say they are infiltrators from across the border ??
> 
> Every time they martyr the freedom fighters, the Indians say LeT, so what kind of ID cards they use ?? Or is it written on their foreheads that they are from LeT.
> 
> And as for the Sikh policemen killed, was it confirmed it were infiltrators who did it, it may be dakooss, sikh separatists, or even smugglers who were doing some smuggling, anything is possible.
> 
> This is all a propaganda game, thing is something and what is told is something else.
> 
> They may have killed Hizbul Muj guys, but brand them LeT, to bring in or show the paranoia. The policemen may have been killed by smugglers, but termed as infiltrators, and what is the infiltrators are gonna do in Punjab, it is peaceful as it can be.









Exclusive: Here's proof of Pak incursion-News-Exclusives-TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos

Pakistan infiltration caught on camera-News-Exclusives-TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos


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## TaimiKhan

gubbi said:


> @Taimikhan: Why was my post deleted? Wasn't that the bitter truth? I understand that you don't particularly like me, but..here is my simple point.
> 
> Many here support the militants calling them freedom fighters and variants thereof. One mod even changed the title to suit the 'sentiments' of some other members. Many here pray for those who come across borders and get killed in their attempt to wreck havoc in the Kashmir valley.
> 
> But none among them have come forth to celebrate the achievements of the Kashmiri doctor who topped the IAS exam or other achievements by the Kashmiris.
> 
> You all support Kashmiri freedom, so why don't you all celebrate their achievements? No prayers for the Kashmiri's welfare? Hypocrisy is not lost upon intelligent observers.
> 
> *Instead of labeling it as a useless rant, please do provide evidence of Pakistani members support for Kashmiris' achievements instead of their support for the terrorist scumbags! *
> 
> *My point still stands*! Unless you *post evidence of support for Kashmiris' welfare, many shall presume that all that Pakistan wants is only the territory in question* as a balm, sorry to say, for a collective fractured ego and failed state policies based on a pseudo-superiority complex of past governments, without as much as a scant thought about the Kashmiris!



Liking, disliking is not my duty, nor do i have time for such type of characters. Plus, i have no personal experience with you on this forum. Had i disliked you, well you would not had been posting this one, but as we like to have open discussion taking out personal emotions, we are having this conversation. 

Why should we celebrate their achievements when they top Indian civil service ?? It means they or he or she wants to be an Indian and play a part in its bureaucratic establishment and doesn't support freedom of Kashmir from the occupiers, they become traitors, don't they ?? 

As said, from your POV, these are terrorist/militant scumbags, but for us, the IA, paramilitary forces, police and the Indian establishment making sure their occupation works, are what you just called the freedom fighters. Plain and simple. 

Plus, whatever you want to think, keep thinking, it doesn't changes the reality that Kashmir is a disputed area and Pro-Pakistani slogans and flags are raised, not by dozens or few hundreds, but by hundred thousands and the IA and other security forces have been instrumental in having killed thousands, raped thousands.

And yea, we are totally against killing of any civilians, be it a Kashmiri or a Indian citizen, as they are innocent, and innocents blood shed is a great barbarity.


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## imran iqbal

yashchauhan, are you also a member of Skyscraperscity ?


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## TaimiKhan

karan.1970 said:


> What a self serving though flawed logic..You are willing to believe the part of what Indian Army says because it suites your convinience and reject the part that doesnt ?



Then give me a source, that these were not freedom fighters, rather someone else, i will change the heading right away.


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## MilesTogo

Can BLA be termed as freedom fighters?


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## Iggy

TaimiKhan said:


> thanks for the suggestion.



Always a pleasure my friend  ..


let me ask you ,are the same LeT and JeM are created for the freedom of Kashmir are now conducting terrorist activities??then whats the difference between a guy killing in Mumbai and he kills in Kashmir..either way he is killing innocents and doing the exact crime..


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## Gene

hillman32 said:


> I offer my condolences to the families for 6 Kashmiries who had been killed and named as Pakistani militants.
> 
> Pakistan is not sending anyone as the policy of GOP is changed now.



Don't make me laugh !!!!!!
"jo 60 sal se sudhre nahin, kehte hain ab sudhar gaye"


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> In which case, how did the mods assert that instead of LeT, they were pro freedom insurgents and changed the thread title to that? They could have been drug smugglers or simple thieves or as a lot of you like to believe, innocent civilians?? Where is the proof of them being pro freedom. Did they leave a letter for Pakistani Army ??


Because these are encounters in Disputed Kashmir, and most encounters there are between insurgents (local or other) and Indian security forces, whereas incidents elsewhere, such as Punjab, are more likely to be smugglers or possibly other locals..


However what cannot be said with certainty is which group these insurgents belonged to, which is why the LeT reference was taken out.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

MilesTogo said:


> Can BLA be termed as freedom fighters?
> 
> YouTube - Marri: Balochistan Independence -4/4



No they cannot because they have themselves taken responsibility for killing civilians - school teachers, principals, non-Baluch ethnicity laborers and residents etc.

They have also openly called for the killing of non-Baluch residents (civilians and non-civilians). I fail to see how any group that so openly calls for the murder of innocents, and acts in that manner, in pursuit of a political objective can be considered anything but a 'terrorist' group.

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## MilesTogo

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No they cannot because they have themselves taken responsibility for killing civilians - school teachers, principals, non-Baluch ethnicity laborers and residents etc.
> 
> They have also openly called for the killing of non-Baluch residents (civilians and non-civilians). I fail to see how any group that so openly calls for the murder of innocents, and acts in that manner, in pursuit of a political objective can be considered anything but a 'terrorist' group.



Can the same logic be applied to Kashmiri groups in case of Mumbai attacks and other terror attacks in India?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No they cannot because they have themselves taken responsibility for killing civilians - school teachers, principals, non-Baluch ethnicity laborers and residents etc.
> 
> They have also openly called for the killing of non-Baluch residents (civilians and non-civilians). I fail to see how any group that so openly calls for the murder of innocents, and acts in that manner, in pursuit of a political objective can be considered anything but a 'terrorist' group.


In fact, were the BLA allowed to carry out its stated goals, it would be tantamount to a genocide of non-Baluch in the province.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

MilesTogo said:


> Can the same logic be applied to Kashmiri groups in case of Mumbai attacks and other terror attacks in India?



Terrorist attacks, yes, - attacks on security forces, no.

And, whether true or not, the LeT, JuD and other insurgent groups have stated that they were not responsible for the Mumbai attacks or other terrorist attacks in India. That is a rather different position from that of the TTP/AQ/BLA, who proudly claim responsibility for terror attacks, and call for more of the same.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> As I said.. It began with a news headline and I really dont see every single thread starting with a news headline reviewed for provisions of proof to justify the headline.. But anyway.. Your forum... your call...


It started of with a headline from one incident, but the thread then changed to one in which all encounters occurring in J&L were being posted. Since the thread was being used as a single thread for all insurgent/Indian SF encounters, the current title reflects its content more accurately.


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## MilesTogo

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Terrorist attacks, yes, - attacks on security forces, no.
> 
> And, whether true or not, the LeT, JuD and other insurgent groups have stated that they were not responsible for the Mumbai attacks or other terrorist attacks in India. That is a rather different position from that of the TTP/AQ/BLA, who proudly claim responsibility for terror attacks, and call for more of the same.



So, if BLA targets Pakistani army - then would you recognize it as freedom struggle.


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## karan.1970

TaimiKhan said:


> Then give me a source, that these were not freedom fighters, rather someone else, i will change the heading right away.



No sir.. Here is the sequence

1. I quoted a news headline which called them LeT people. The news did not give any proof
2. The mod team questions the proof and hence does not want to call them LeT people. I can live with that.
3. The mod team then goes ahead and calls them Pro freedom insurgents. 
4. Now it is upto the mod team to walk the talk and either give proof that they were pro freedom insurgents or it should not call them that applying the same logic that I am supposed to follow..


btw will we apply the same logic when PA kills so called TTP terrorists in NWFP and the news is reported in this forum? Or is that exempt?


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## Gene

TaimiKhan said:


> Then give me a source, that these were not freedom fighters, rather someone else, i will change the heading right away.



If you have proof that these men are freedom fighters,then why don't you disclose this matter to the whole world that Indian army killed 6 innocent civilians. 

It's another fact that hardly any country believes Pakistan...

you may call them freedom fighter in Pakistan,but here we called them terrorist in India, & Indian army don't care what ever you said about them...


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## MilesTogo

If LeT is not a terror organization but a Kashmiri Freedom Struggle group, then why did Pakistan ban it.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> @Taimikhan: Why was my post deleted? Wasn't that the bitter truth? I understand that you don't particularly like me, but..here is my simple point.
> 
> Many here support the militants calling them freedom fighters and variants thereof. One mod even changed the title to suit the 'sentiments' of some other members. Many here pray for those who come across borders and get killed in their attempt to wreck havoc in the Kashmir valley.
> 
> But none among them have come forth to celebrate the achievements of the Kashmiri doctor who topped the IAS exam or other achievements by the Kashmiris.
> 
> You all support Kashmiri freedom, so why don't you all celebrate their achievements? No prayers for the Kashmiri's welfare? Hypocrisy is not lost upon intelligent observers.
> 
> *Instead of labeling it as a useless rant, please do provide evidence of Pakistani members support for Kashmiris' achievements instead of their support for the terrorist scumbags! *
> 
> *My point still stands*! Unless you *post evidence of support for Kashmiris' welfare, many shall presume that all that Pakistan wants is only the territory in question* as a balm, sorry to say, for a collective fractured ego and failed state policies based on a pseudo-superiority complex of past governments, without as much as a scant thought about the Kashmiris!


Posting or not posting on a thread is not evidence of caring or not caring for the welfare of Kashmiris.

You are coming up with an arbitrary standard of how you want to define 'caring'. I do not see how you have shown anything you claim about what Pakistan wants or thinks, but you are welcome to your opinion. 

Now please stick to the topic.

---------- Post added at 12:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 PM ----------




MilesTogo said:


> If LeT is not a terror organization but a Kashmiri Freedom Struggle group, then why did Pakistan ban it.



Because the UN called for it, without a trial, without allowing those accused to challenge their designation.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Gene said:


> If you have proof that these men are freedom fighters,then why don't you disclose this matter to the whole world that Indian army killed 6 innocent civilians.


Being 'freedom fighters' does not make them 'innocent civilians' - they are still combatants, and the IA is within its rights to engage them and kill them, as they are to engage the IA and kill its soldiers in pursuit of and end to Indian occupation.


> It's another fact that hardly any country believes Pakistan...


Does not change the facts.


> you may call them freedom fighter in Pakistan,but here we called them terrorist in India, & Indian army don't care what ever you said about them...


Call them what you will, over here the Indian Army is called a terrorist occupation army, but if there is to be any civil discourse on the forum, then name calling has to stop.

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## Prometheus

karan.1970 said:


> @Prometheus
> 
> Let it go.. remember the story of 5 blind men and the elephant. Thats the problem with the Pakistan today. They see this animal of terrorism as seperate groups like AT, LeT, Jaish (pro Pakistan ) and TTP etc (anti Pakistan). Till the day they dont realize that its one big 800 pound gorilla in their house, determined to convert the house into a jungle, they are destined to face its warth on a day in day out basis and get blamed every time there is a terror like incident anywhere in the world..




as you say ..................but i never locked it that I have to let it go.

good nite mate.

I will await my answer from Super mod (* best mod here)........agno


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> .
> 4. Now it is upto the mod team to walk the talk and either give proof that they were pro freedom insurgents or it should not call them that applying the same logic that I am supposed to follow..


If they are insurgents, then it is pretty obvious they are not fighting the IA because they are pro-India, and if they are not pro-India, then they are fighting the IA to end 'occupation' and therefore for 'freedom'.


> btw will we apply the same logic when PA kills so called TTP terrorists in NWFP and the news is reported in this forum? Or is that exempt?


You are correct, they may not be TTP militants, but Uzbeks, Chechens, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, Al Qaeda etc. But all those groups are terrorists given their open claims of responsibility for attacking civilians, in many cases videos as well. So calling them terrorists or militants would be accurate, since no one aside from these groups is fighting the PA in that region.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

MilesTogo said:


> So, if BLA targets Pakistani army - then would you recognize it as freedom struggle.



Too late for that now, since they have in the past few weeks (and before that) openly claimed responsibility for attacking and killing school teachers, principals, laborers, civil servants etc.

They have also openly called for killing/eliminating non-Baluch (especially Punjabi) residents of Balochistan, indicating they wish to perpetrate a genocide.

Once upon a time they might have been 'freedom fighters'.

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## afriend

Well.. these freedom strugglers had a history of killing civilians who had refused to shelter them. And also they have unique distinction of killing pandits and throwing them out of kashmir. I do not think this comes under the purview of freedom strugglers.

And AM what evidence do you have to assume these where pro freedom strugglers or militants who come under the above category. I believe its a matter of convinient assumption.

Fundemental disagreement of the categorisation of these militants are always there, and hence the change in title dont make much difference as long as these terrorists are given their well deserved appoinment to hell.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

afriend said:


> Well.. these freedom strugglers had a history of killing civilians who had refused to shelter them. And also they have unique distinction of killing pandits and throwing them out of kashmir. I do not think this comes under the purview of freedom strugglers.


Not all militants have that 'history' just like one could argue not all IA soldiers are torturing, raping and murdering innocent Kashmiris, though enough have.



> And AM what evidence do you have to assume these where pro freedom strugglers or militants who come under the above category. I believe its a matter of convinient assumption.


So, are you suggesting the people killed in these encounters are innocent civilians?


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## bandmaster

Gene said:


> If you have proof that these men are freedom fighters,then why don't you disclose this matter to the whole world that Indian army killed 6 innocent civilians.
> 
> It's another fact that hardly any country believes Pakistan...
> 
> you may call them freedom fighter in Pakistan,but here we called them terrorist in India, & Indian army don't care what ever you said about them...



Pakistan's Kashmir policy suits India well. If a jihadi narrative wasn't given to the Kashmir issue, there would be a lot more international pressure on India to resolve it. Pakistan's Kashmir policy has also promoted the jihadi monster which threatens Pakistan's very existence. I couldn't be more pleased with the general sentiment expressed in this thread by Pakistani members here. It seems to me that Pakistan will continue to radicalize itself over Kashmir and other issues, at grievous cost to it's society and economy.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

bandmaster said:


> Pakistan's Kashmir policy suits India well. If a jihadi narrative wasn't given to the Kashmir issue, there would be a lot more international pressure on India to resolve it. Pakistan's Kashmir policy has also promoted the jihadi monster which threatens Pakistan's very existence. I couldn't be more pleased with the general sentiment expressed in this thread by Pakistani members here. It seems to me that Pakistan will continue to radicalize itself over Kashmir and other issues, at grievous cost to it's society and economy.


Actually the Jihadi monster has a lot more to do with the Western Front, the Soviet invasion and Afghan Jihad, and Pakistan's subsequent Afghan policies, not Kashmir.

You are correct though that India has painted the Kashmiri freedom struggle in a Jihadi light to gain leverage to continue its occupation and not resolve the dispute.

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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> If they are insurgents, then it is pretty obvious they are not fighting the IA because they are pro-India, and if they are not pro-India, then they are fighting the IA to end 'occupation' and therefore for 'freedom'.


Who says they are insurgents?? Could be common criminals like kidnappers or robbers or smugglers ?? Are you taking IA's word for it that they are insurgents?? Then why not their word that they are LeT. Either accept IA's word or dont. Why be selective??




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> You are correct, they may not be TTP militants, but Uzbeks, Chechens, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, Al Qaeda etc. But all those groups are terrorists given their open claims of responsibility for attacking civilians, in many cases videos as well. So calling them terrorists or militants would be accurate, since no one aside from these groups is fighting the PA in that region.



So when a so called freedom fighter tries to take a hotel in srinagar hostage and results in deaths of a few civilians, is he a terrorist or not?? May be not LeT as they dont carry i cards, but a terrorist??

Or plants a bomb on a railway track used by civilians?

or throws a hand grenade at a traffic junction??

btw, how do you get a proof that those killed in NWFP were actually the same ones attacking the civilians?? Do they carry Id Cards of belonging to any of the organizations you mentioned?? Or do you take PA's word for it??


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## afriend

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Not all militants have that 'history' just like one could argue not all IA soldiers are torturing, raping and murdering innocent Kashmiris, though enough have.
> 
> 
> So, are you suggesting the people killed in these encounters are innocent civilians?



Well these guys came from other side with arms and ammuniions, they where tracked down and encountered before they could do any damage thanks to many of our peace loving kashmiri brothers who tips of the army. So i agree, lot of arguments and assumptions can be made in such a scenario. And there shall be always a fundemental disagreement.


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## afriend

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Actually the Jihadi monster has a lot more to do with the Western Front, the Soviet invasion and Afghan Jihad, and Pakistan's subsequent Afghan policies, not Kashmir.
> 
> You are correct though that India has painted the Kashmiri freedom struggle in a Jihadi light to gain leverage to continue its occupation and not resolve the dispute.




I think, such demarcation of good violance and bad violance is not good as a policy for any country. You had been bitten once in the western front, and you never know when it will turn around in the eastern front. So clear and uniform policy should be there for all forms of violence else there would always be a trust deficit when it comes to pakistan.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Who says they are insurgents?? Could be common criminals like kidnappers or robbers or smugglers ?? Are you taking IA's word for it that they are insurgents?? Then why not their word that they are LeT. Either accept IA's word or dont. Why be selective??


Common criminals/smugglers would not be crossing over the heavily militarized LoC, and therefore the reasonable suspicion is that they were insurgents. Smugglers could be an option, but unlikely given the major markets are across the IB (where smuggling is well documented) and that some contraband shoudl have been found with them.

If they had assault weapons and what not, suspicion falls on them being insurgents, but identifying them as insurgents from a particular group is not a reasonable assumption.

However, smuggling rackets (alcohol etc.) across the IB are widely documented.



> So when a so called freedom fighter tries to take a hotel in srinagar hostage and results in deaths of a few civilians, is he a terrorist or not?? May be not LeT as they dont carry i cards, but a terrorist??


If taking refuge in a hotel/house to hide from SF's, then part of a guerrila war I'd say. If deliberately taking hostages as human shields or to kill, then a terrorist I suppose.


> Or plants a bomb on a railway track used by civilians?


Attacking infrastructure, not civilians.


> or throws a hand grenade at a traffic junction??


Were there security forces present there? How does a US drone attack on a house where suspected Taliban and civilians both live, as well as civilians in surrounding houses, come across? Terrorist attack since civilian deaths were known and taken as acceptable?



> btw, how do you get a proof that those killed in NWFP were actually the same ones attacking the civilians?? Do they carry Id Cards of belonging to any of the organizations you mentioned?? Or do you take PA's word for it??


They belong to groups whose leadership has openly come out in support of terrorist attacks and proudly claimed them when they occur. No possibility of being anything but terrorists, since the above mentioned groups are the only ones fighting the PA in those regions.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

afriend said:


> I think, such demarcation of good violance and bad violance is not good as a policy for any country.


Yet I have not seen you condemn Indira Gandhi and India for supporting violent rebels/terrorists in East Pakistan.

Once Indians themselves stop being hypocritical about 'good terrorists and bad terrorists' they might get more support for their position.


> You had been bitten once in the western front, and you never know when it will turn around in the eastern front. So clear and uniform policy should be there for all forms of violence else there would always be a trust deficit when it comes to pakistan.


The eastern front has been clamped down on for over a decade now. That is why the violent insurgency in J&K and cross-LoC infiltration remain at historically low levels.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

afriend said:


> And there shall be always a fundemental disagreement.



That is fine - I did not rename the thread Pro-Freedom Insurgents vs Occupying Indian Army after all.

Whether you like it or not, the insurgents are fighting for an end to Indian rule. The title is apt.

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## afriend

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Yet I have not seen you condemn Indira Gandhi and India for supporting violent rebels/terrorists in East Pakistan.
> 
> Once Indians themselves stop being hypocritical about 'good terrorists and bad terrorists' they might get more support for their position.
> 
> The eastern front has been clamped down on for over a decade now. That is why the violent insurgency in J&K and cross-LoC infiltration remain at historically low levels.



I do not understand how can you call it hypocracy,

Indira gandhi clamped down the same people who had guns and terrorised entire punjab and who had killed many innocent civilans and punjab was turning into a lawless state where too you had tried to interfere. And india directly interfered in bangladesh with its army, its support and arms training for mukti bani started only months before the actual assault by the indian army when there where already atrocities going on. And its a one strong blow india made against lawless agents. India did nurture them to grow into a monster. We never continued our support to any organisation who have turned into a lawless entity like taliban in afghanistan.

So you viewing your policy and our policy through the same lens is not right is wot i believe.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Common criminals/smugglers would not be crossing over the heavily militarized LoC, and therefore the reasonable suspicion is that they were insurgents. Smugglers could be an option, but unlikely given the major markets are across the IB (where smuggling is well documented) and that some contraband shoudl have been found with them.
> 
> If they had assault weapons and what not, suspicion falls on them being insurgents, but identifying them as insurgents from a particular group is not a reasonable assumption.
> 
> However, smuggling rackets (alcohol etc.) across the IB are widely documented.



They are all logical deductions based on snippets of information and one could build a few that can show with reasonable confidence that the folks belonged to a group which is highly active in the region. 

My point is that you have rejected a supposition and replaced it with another. Neither is backed with proof.. So if 1st is not good as a title, niether is second. However to my earlier question, do all posts quoting a headline go thru this test??




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> If taking refuge in a hotel/house to hide from SF's, then part of a guerrila war I'd say. If deliberately taking hostages as human shields or to kill, then a terrorist I suppose.
> 
> Attacking infrastructure, not civilians.
> 
> Were there security forces present there? How does a US drone attack on a house where suspected Taliban and civilians both live, as well as civilians in surrounding houses, come across? Terrorist attack since civilian deaths were known and taken as acceptable?



So terrorist in first case,

In case of railway track, how would they ensure that the civilian train does not meet with an accident or worse is not blown off?? Convinient logic?? May be TTP is also blowing off buildings and the people who get killed are just Collateral damage .. eh?

On 3rd part, if the civilian deaths were expected to begin with, then Yes... Just like the grenade attacks...??



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> They belong to groups whose leadership has openly come out in support of terrorist attacks and proudly claimed them when they occur. No possibility of being anything but terrorists, since the above mentioned groups are the only ones fighting the PA in those regions.



How do you ascertain they belong to those groups?? Do they carry Id cards?? Or are you saying there is no human being present in that area who is not fighting PA?


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## KS

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Yet I have not seen you condemn Indira Gandhi and India for supporting violent rebels/terrorists in East Pakistan.



Y should w condemn Indira in the first place..She intervened only because the weak Indian economy at the time could not afford the millions of bengalis who were pouring in as refugees.Does the same thing happen in Kashmir.??
The only refugees i see are the 4 million Kashmiri hindu Pandits.
What have u got for them..?

@Agno:
U said that the BLA can be called terrorists becausr they kill civilians...
From their point and my point they r just killing the Punjabi occupiers who have come to strip their lands of their resources..

nad also can i provide proof of terrorists killing innocent Kasmiris..? will u accept them..?


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## bandmaster

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Actually the Jihadi monster has a lot more to do with the Western Front, the Soviet invasion and Afghan Jihad, and Pakistan's subsequent Afghan policies, not Kashmir.
> 
> You are correct though that India has painted the Kashmiri freedom struggle in a Jihadi light to gain leverage to continue its occupation and not resolve the dispute.



Again we see an attempt to contextualize jihadi violence. Is it really that illogical to claim that jihadi sentiment and ideology can flow freely all across Pakistan irrespective of Eastern or Western fronts or even national boundaries? Pakistan can protest the allegations it has actively promoted such malfeasance . However, there are very few nations that have fared as badly as Pakistan has when it comes to defeating violent jihadi ideology. We are talking about basket cases such as Somalia here. The only reason of this failure is... you guessed it. Contextualization of jihadi violence.

Your declaration of Kashmiri violence as a "freedom struggle" is a
Pakistani point of view. Pakistan should be willing to wage a declared and legal war against Indian control of Kashmir, if it feels that India has illegally occupied it's territory. Another option is to have the UN pass a resolution that what happened in Kashmir was a "legitimate freedom struggle" and rally world opinion around to your point of view. Self-righteous indignation isn't going to cut it. It just makes Pakistan look helpless.


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## KS

Wat is the use of RAW wen these terrorists are roaming freely in Pakistan..?

MOSSAD pls help these ppl...


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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> Y should w condemn Indira in the first place..She intervened only because the weak Indian economy at the time could not afford the millions of bengalis who were pouring in as refugees.Does the same thing happen in Kashmir.??
> The only refugees i see are the 4 million Kashmiri hindu Pandits.
> What have u got for them..?
> 
> @Agno:
> U said that the BLA can be called terrorists becausr they kill civilians...
> From their point and my point they r just killing the Punjabi occupiers who have come to strip their lands of their resources..
> 
> nad also can i provide proof of terrorists killing innocent Kasmiris..? will u accept them..?
> 
> YouTube - Nandimarg Massacre : Killing of 23 Kashmiri Hindus by Islamic Terrorists in Kashmir
> 
> YouTube - killing kafir kashmiri pandits pt2
> YouTube - kill the pandits And the world shall remained silent Part 2 on Kashmiri Pandits



OK enough with your party here. I can't allow anyone posting BS about Pakistan and martyrs of Kashmir on a Pakistani forum. 



> Y should w condemn Indira in the first place..She intervened only because the weak Indian economy at the time could not afford the millions of bengalis who were pouring in as refugees.Does the same thing happen in Kashmir.??



Thanks for not condemning Indra and for giving us the license to support every single insurgency in your country. Remember 1971 has given us the right to do everything including supporting rebels and insurgents in your country. I wanted the same from you. Now don't cry about cross border infiltration. Got it kid!



> U said that the BLA can be called terrorists becausr they kill civilians...
> From their point and my point they r just killing the Punjabi occupiers who have come to strip their lands of their resources..



Who cares about BLA terrorists or you. And if you are very willing to bring this irrelevant Baluch issue in this thread. Why should we talk only about Kashmir freedom movement. Let's talk about everything from maoists to nagas. From ULFA to Khalistanis. From Mezoram to Chattisgarh. We were talking about IOK because it is an occupied territory and not an Indian territory. But sincw you keep bringing Pakistan's internal issues between the discussion then we can talk about Indian internal issues also. 

And keep those pathetic videos to yourself, because they don't change the fact that Indian Occupied Kashmir is the *occupied* territory.


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## bandmaster

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Yet I have not seen you condemn Indira Gandhi and India for supporting violent rebels/terrorists in East Pakistan.
> 
> Once Indians themselves stop being hypocritical about 'good terrorists and bad terrorists' they might get more support for their position.


 
I would have condemned Indira Gandhi for not intervening in Bangladesh much earlier, which could have saved countless Bangladeshi lives, but I am told that it was IA's decision.


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## Skeptic

Well not only evidence but there are millions of eye witnesses (Kashmiri Pandits) sitting in Jammu camps. But do you considering deaths of innocent civilians as a act of terrorism even if they are non-muslims.

This is an absurd argument that Kashmiri terrorists are freedom fighters as they are not killing civilians. The demography of the entir valley has been permanently altered because of their acts.

In case you do not accept infidels as innocent civilians - there is the case of father of our civil services topper. He has been killed by the same breed of "Freedom Fighters" and his family is saying on live media without being prompted.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> OK enough with your party here. I can't allow anyone posting BS about Pakistan and martyrs of Kashmir on a Pakistani forum.



Ur forum..ur rules...I can understand..but that doesnt change the truth



Areesh said:


> Thanks for not condemning Indra and for giving us the license to support every single insurgency in your country. Remember 1971 has given us the right to do everything including supporting rebels and insurgents in your country. I wanted the same from you. Now don't cry about cross border infiltration. Got it kid!



Yeak kid....Similarly dont cry of Indian/RAW intervention incase of any bomb blast in ur cities or the undies of any pakistani have been stolen. !! 




Areesh said:


> Who cares about BLA terrorists or you. And if you are very willing to bring this irrelevant Baluch issue in this thread. Why should we talk only about Kashmir freedom movement. Let's talk about everything from maoists to nagas. From ULFA to Khalistanis. From Mezoram to Chattisgarh. We were talking about IOK because it is an occupied territory and not an Indian territory. But sincw you keep bringing Pakistan's internal issues between the discussion then we can talk about Indian internal issues also.



yeah bring it on...waiting for u....Similarly who cares abt Kashmiri terrorists or ur opinion.??



Areesh said:


> And keep those pathetic videos to yourself, because they don't change the fact that Indian Occupied Kashmir is the *occupied* territory.



I ve asked this question a million times..but no answer or a defelction..

*WHO IS A KASHMIRI..?*


According to me not only are the valley ppl counted as Kashmiris..but also the *4 million Displaced Pandits*,the brave Ruksana begums,the Kashmiri muslim jawans in IA who are fighting to get rid off the terrorists from the valley.

And wen a person with a mentality like u who could see only a muslim killed but can conviniently shrugg off the fact that thousands of Hindu pandits were massacred by these terrorists...My god wat can i argue with u..?

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## karan.1970

Well.. You may call IA as Occupying army and the terrorists in Kashmir as Freedom fighter, but that really doesnt change a thing..The tide seems to be turning in the valley.. The total number of fatalities have decreased by a factor of 10 in last 10 years. A few more years, and this too (whether freedom struggle or cross border terrorism) will be confined to the history books like the Khalistan movement..

Anyway.. till the next encounter....


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## gubbi

TaimiKhan said:


> Why should we celebrate their achievements when they top Indian civil service ?? It means they or he or she wants to be an Indian and play a part in its bureaucratic establishment and doesn't support freedom of Kashmir from the occupiers,* they become traitors, don't they* ??


No they dont! You sir, are absolutely wrong. It takes real brains to achieve something of that caliber. Any idiot can pick up an AK-47 and given some instructions can try to wreck havoc. But to come up as an IAS topper needs brains, which sorry to say, is scant in some places. 

So according to you its patriotic for any idiot (which most of them actually are) to pick up arms and kill than to work for the betterment of their people by taking advantage of a given situation? The doctor has just done that. So he is unpatriotic, eh? I would rater have Kashmir led by people of such caliber than ak-47 toting idiots!

Just because he got an opportunity from Indian institutions to showcase his brilliance, he is being branded as unpatriotic? Doesnt that show the decay that has set in the mindset? Just because most of the Kashmiris' achievements are due to Indian institutions, you people shun celebrating their achievements? Now isnt that being narrow minded and wallowing in hatred?

What kind of reality are you people living in? Really?


> As said, from your POV, these are terrorist/militant scumbags, but for us, the IA, paramilitary forces, police and the Indian establishment making sure their occupation works, are what you just called the freedom fighters.


From a sane person's pov, those that disturb peace and install terror in the minds of the local population are called terrorists. Normal people dislike such kind and call them scumbags. They work with authorities to report the activities of such scumbags to help eliminate them. This is what is happening in Kashmir today. So, Pakistan's apparent policy of "moral" support is a just facade for territorial ambitions in the region.


> Plus, whatever you want to think, keep thinking, it doesn't changes the reality that Kashmir is a disputed area and Pro-Pakistani slogans and flags are raised, not by dozens or few hundreds, but by hundred thousands and the IA and other security forces have been instrumental in having killed thousands, raped thousands.


Mark my words, no matter how hard Pakistan tries, its attempts to grab the territory will just fizzle out, just like your futile support for the Khalistani movement. Those so called slogans and support for Pakistan "shows" are few and far in between. The common Kashmiri is more concerned with the common welfare and what the Indian govt can provide. People have now realized the futility of the so called armed struggle, and are now working with the state government for a better future, the doctor's topping IAS being one prime example. 
As to your claim of atrocities committed, yes, there were many, but not to the extent your media reported nor to the extend the Pakistani propaganda machine tried to paint for local consumption.


> And yea, we are totally against killing of any civilians, be it a Kashmiri or a Indian citizen, as they are innocent, and innocents blood shed is a great barbarity.


Good that we, atleast, agree on this.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

bandmaster said:


> I would have condemned Indira Gandhi for not intervening in Bangladesh much earlier, which could have saved countless Bangladeshi lives, but I am told that it was IA's decision.



Ahh, see - another Indian making a distinction between 'good terrorists and bad terrorists', and supporting the GoI decision to be a terrorist sponsoring State.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> They are all logical deductions based on snippets of information and one could build a few that can show with reasonable confidence that the folks belonged to a group which is highly active in the region.
> 
> My point is that you have rejected a supposition and replaced it with another. Neither is backed with proof.. So if 1st is not good as a title, niether is second. However to my earlier question, do all posts quoting a headline go thru this test??


There are multiple groups active in the region, to merely point to one particular group without any evidence smacks of a propaganda effort.

A broad conclusion that those killed are insurgents fighting Indian control, without any determination of which group, of J&K is the most logical and rational conclusion


As for 'all posts', I already explained that when this thread moved beyond the headline of the one incident the thread was initially based on, that headline became inappropriate - after all, the discussion over the original 'six LeT militants killed' is long over, with additional encounters being posted and discussed.

And yes, when other threads acquire such dimensions of moving beyond the original title, moderators often change the titles/merge threads etc. 



> In case of railway track, how would they ensure that the civilian train does not meet with an accident or worse is not blown off?? Convinient logic?? May be TTP is also blowing off buildings and the people who get killed are just Collateral damage .. eh?


In most wars, infrastructure, civilian or military, has been attacked - the US has did it in Afghanistan and Iraq - so why only hold the Kashmiri insurgents feet to the fire?

Recall what the Allies did to the city of Dresden in WWII, or Hiroshima and Nagasaki for that matter.



> On 3rd part, if the civilian deaths were expected to begin with, then Yes... Just like the grenade attacks...??


In the Baitullah Mehsud killing, reports from US sources quoting US and Pakistani intelligence officials stated that the footage from the targeting UAV indicated his wife was present with other individuals (physician?). S-2 argued that 'associating with the enemy', or even being in their proximity, makes one the enemy, and that therefore the deliberate killing of these non-combatants is 'justified' in US eyes. Perhaps one should then hold the world's sole Super Power accountable before blaming Kashmiri insurgents.


> How do you ascertain they belong to those groups?? Do they carry Id cards?? Or are you saying there is no human being present in that area who is not fighting PA?


No other groups have indicated any interest in fighting the Pakistani State in those regions, so yes, it can be claimed with reasonable certainty that those fighting the PA and attacking civilians and non-civilians belong to the aforementioned groups. Also, the fact that in most tribal agencies the PA has evacuated the locals means most of those remaining are terrorists fighting the State.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

afriend said:


> I do not understand how can you call it hypocracy,
> 
> Indira gandhi clamped down the same people who had guns and terrorised entire punjab and who had killed many innocent civilans and punjab was turning into a lawless state where too you had tried to interfere. And india directly interfered in bangladesh with its army, its support and arms training for mukti bani started only months before the actual assault by the indian army when there where already atrocities going on. And its a one strong blow india made against lawless agents. India did nurture them to grow into a monster. We never continued our support to any organisation who have turned into a lawless entity like taliban in afghanistan.
> 
> So you viewing your policy and our policy through the same lens is not right is wot i believe.





Karthic Sri said:


> Y should w condemn Indira in the first place..She intervened only because the weak Indian economy at the time could not afford the millions of bengalis who were pouring in as refugees.Does the same thing happen in Kashmir.??
> The only refugees i see are the 4 million Kashmiri hindu Pandits.
> What have u got for them..?



Indian support for the East Pakistani terrorists/rebels, both before and after Op. Searchlight, and the fallacy of the argument of 'millions of refugees' has been discussed elsewhere, so I won't take this thread in that direction, but even accepting your arguments, the fact is that they amount to mere excuses, such as those by Pakistanis, that the IA is responsible for the torture, rape and massacres of tens of thousands of Kashmiris - atrocities confirmed by Amnesty International and HRW. Pakistanis would argue that the unjust occupation and subjugation of millions of Kashmiris by India deserves support, and the struggle of Kashmiris is similar to the struggle by Indians and the Americans from British rule.

So at the end of the day, you can dig up whatever excuses you want, but the fact is that India supported rebels (that committed atrocities against civilians) and undermined the rule of a sovereign nation - that is support for terrorism, as was India's support for the LTTE. But while many Indians have accepted that their nation was wrong in supporting the LTTE, they continue to make the 'good terrorist vs bad terrorist' distinction in East Pakistan vs Kashmir - this is completely hypocritical and should change if Indians are really sincere about 'peace' and 'dialog not insurgency in Kashmir'.


> @Agno:
> U said that the BLA can be called terrorists becausr they kill civilians...
> From their point and my point they r just killing the Punjabi occupiers who have come to strip their lands of their resources..


A civilian non-Baluch who teaches in a school or college, educating Baluch youth (amongst others) to have a better future is not a 'usurper' or 'occupier'. A non-Baluch who is a laborer doing really nasty work in poor conditions in a mine is not a 'usurper' or 'occupier'. Baluchistan is part of Pakistan, and when the rulers of the Princely States, and people of other territories comprising the modern province of Baluchistan, and people of all other provinces, chose to join Pakistan they accepted that there would be free movement of all Pakistanis across Pakistan. That is why Karachi is such an ethnically diverse city.


> nad also can i provide proof of terrorists killing innocent Kasmiris..? will u accept them..?


Sure, as there is evidence from AI, HRW and others about atrocities committed by the IA, but the leadership of most Kashmir groups, and the IA, has condemned such incidents and does not advocate it as SOP, do they?

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## yashchauhan

imran iqbal said:


> yashchauhan, are you also a member of Skyscraperscity ?



yes..I am..........


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## afriend

@AM. end of the day.. you can compare in whatever way your support for terrorists and indian hand in bangaldesh indpendence and curbing punjab militancy... but the comparission is institutionally flawed given the ground realties of these terrorist groups running havoc across the world. We have a independent and peaceful bangladesh and we have a wonderful punjab. What you have ???an unstable afghanistan and a much greater menace the taliban and alqadia. So wotever justificaiton you give for your support, it has been proved flawed one time and its not long it will proved flawed again.


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## KS

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Indian support for the East Pakistani terrorists/rebels, both before and after Op. Searchlight, and the fallacy of the argument of 'millions of refugees' has been discussed elsewhere, so I won't take this thread in that direction, but even accepting your arguments, the fact is that they amount to mere excuses, such as those by Pakistanis, that the IA is responsible for the torture, rape and massacres of tens of thousands of Kashmiris - atrocities confirmed by Amnesty International and HRW. Pakistanis would argue that the unjust occupation and subjugation of millions of Kashmiris by India deserves support, and the struggle of Kashmiris is similar to the struggle by Indians and the Americans from British rule.



U may use many sugar coated words to describe the terrorism in Kashmir But in reality u dont have millions of refugees flooding Pakistan and underminig ur country's economy..So the argument doesnt stand.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> So at the end of the day, you can dig up whatever excuses you want, but the fact is that India supported rebels (that committed atrocities against civilians) and undermined the rule of a sovereign nation - that is support for terrorism, as was India's support for the LTTE. But while many Indians have accepted that their nation was wrong in supporting the LTTE, they continue to make the 'good terrorist vs bad terrorist' distinction in East Pakistan vs Kashmir - this is completely hypocritical and should change if Indians are really sincere about 'peace' and 'dialog not insurgency in Kashmir'.



Nice try in deflecting the argument using LTTE..But it is b/n India and Srilanka and doesnt concern ur country a bit..So please stay off it.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> A civilian non-Baluch who teaches in a school or college, educating Baluch youth (amongst others) to have a better future is not a 'usurper' or 'occupier'. A non-Baluch who is a laborer doing really nasty work in poor conditions in a mine is not a 'usurper' or 'occupier'. Baluchistan is part of Pakistan, and when the rulers of the Princely States, and people of other territories comprising the modern province of Baluchistan, and people of all other provinces, chose to join Pakistan they accepted that there would be free movement of all Pakistanis across Pakistan. That is why Karachi is such an ethnically diverse city.



IF u can so eloquently post..wat do u think abt the millions of Hindu pandits who became the victims of Terrorism and are living as refugees in their own land..?
Do u honestly believe that only the IA is killing innocents(unless innocent in ur definition is a AK toting Kashmiri) and the terrorists are saints..?
Shall i provide u the links of massacres done by the Terrorists..?




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Sure, as there is evidence from AI, HRW and others about atrocities committed by the IA, but the leadership of most Kashmir groups, and the IA, has condemned such incidents and does not advocate it as SOP, do they?



and sir ur point is..??


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## TheBraveHeart

@ Agno,
The title of the thread is extremely deceiving, not only is the freedom fighters part flawed and my Indian friends have been trying hard to explain it to u(so I wont take efforts trying to put forward my views) but also the other part saying *Indian army* only, coz most of the operations in J&K, involve the local police and their own special forces, who have shown their worth by giving supreme sacrifices, a recent example was mentioned in my last post that u deleted where a police man was injured.
The IA does tend to take a backseat these days and has been allowing the local police to control and undertake operations if u carefully read in between the lines of the news reports. There are many reasons why it is done, like, it takes the attention away from IA if an innocent/local militant is killed and also the police have better geographical understandings in such situations which is very important in guerrilla warfare.
So calling it the battle of IA alone is totally unfair, unjust and wrong; it has to be The *Indian security forces*.


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## Dr.Evil

Mod team seems to be particularly intent on seeing terrorists as freedom fighters, Its their call and their website, Call them whatever you like but we will call all the people who fight against India as terrorists.

GOI is doing a decent job of cleaning the cancer from striking more.

*"Freedom fighter" Ajmal Kasab is being sent to the gallows, that's a great step by the courts in India.*

Death to all who fight against India.


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## TaimiKhan

Dr.Evil said:


> Mod team seems to be particularly intent on seeing terrorists as freedom fighters, Its their call and their website, Call them whatever you like but we will call all the people who fight against India as terrorists.
> 
> GOI is doing a decent job of cleaning the cancer from striking more.
> 
> *"Freedom fighter" Ajmal Kasab is being sent to the gallows, that's a great step by the courts in India.*
> 
> Death to all who fight against India.



Get it clarified up there, we as Pakistanis call the people fighting Indian occupation in Kashmir as Freedom Fighters. People who are fighting the occupying Indian security forces and establishment. 

Freedom Fighters within the context of Kashmir, not rest of India. 

In all of the threads, Pakistani members have termed Kasab or anyone else who kills innocents be it a Kashmiri or an Indian, as killers who are doing such things for some other purpose. 

Hope this is more then enough to clarify the differentiation between freedom fighters and other scumbags who kill for some other purpose.

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## Prometheus

TaimiKhan said:


> Get it clarified up there, we as Pakistanis call the people fighting Indian occupation in Kashmir as Freedom Fighters. People who are fighting the occupying Indian security forces and establishment.
> 
> Freedom Fighters within the context of Kashmir, not rest of India.
> 
> In all of the threads, Pakistani members have termed Kasab or anyone else who kills innocents be it a Kashmiri or an Indian, as killers who are doing such things for some other purpose.
> 
> Hope this is more then enough to clarify the differentiation between freedom fighters and other scumbags who kill for some other purpose.



thats what I was looking for.

Now I can call them terrorists , scumbags etc etc.........specially those who killed Police man in Punjab.

What kind of freedom fighters are these who fight only near borders , LOC and in valley and only are from a particular religion..............and they targeting another religion which forced around half a million flew valley.......freedom fighters


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## Raghu

> Pro Freedom Insurgents vs Indian Army


To justify one lie, hundreds of lies are being told here.

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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Ahh, see - another Indian making a distinction between 'good terrorists and bad terrorists', and supporting the GoI decision to be a terrorist sponsoring State.



Just curious...Was Mukti Bahini ever designated as a terrorist organization by UN?


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## TaimiKhan

karan.1970 said:


> Just curious...Was Mukti Bahini ever designated as a terrorist organization by UN?



If India had not attacked, there would not have been any need, as Mukhti bani would have been finished, or who knows it may have been designated one. 

But as India attacked, it couldn't go to UN.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> There are multiple groups active in the region, to merely point to one particular group without any evidence smacks of a propaganda effort.
> 
> A broad conclusion that those killed are insurgents fighting Indian control, without any determination of which group, of J&K is the most logical and rational conclusion


Wont the army fighting those groups more capable of making that deduction based on their modus operendi and tactics, rather than a bunch of us using newspaper articles and media reports.. ?? I dont see denials coming out of LeT whenever there are claims of their cadre being killed in the J&K region. Isnt that an equally strong supposition that a group so well entrenched in Pakiatan with support from JuD whose leaders can hold anti India rallies at will, can send out denials if their name is misused in an encounter. After all they have been known to deny other incidents where their role was suspected...




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> As for 'all posts', I already explained that when this thread moved beyond the headline of the one incident the thread was initially based on, that headline became inappropriate - after all, the discussion over the original 'six LeT militants killed' is long over, with additional encounters being posted and discussed.
> 
> And yes, when other threads acquire such dimensions of moving beyond the original title, moderators often change the titles/merge threads etc.



C'mon Agno.. We are all adults here.. The intent of title change is pretty obvious.. But I will take your advice on this.. Will create separate threads for such encounters going forward. Will appreciate those not getting merged with this thread as long as the title of the thread remains this..Will I get that much freedom on this forum??




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> In most wars, infrastructure, civilian or military, has been attacked - the US has did it in Afghanistan and Iraq - so why only hold the Kashmiri insurgents feet to the fire?
> 
> Recall what the Allies did to the city of Dresden in WWII, or Hiroshima and Nagasaki for that matter.


Why do you hold TTP's feet to fire then? They are also attacking the Pakistani state and the citizens getting killed are incidental. The disputed status of Kashmir has no standing here since that status is between Pakistan and India and has no provision for armed attacks by terrorists or any other militants..

Please understand that rules of war only apply between nations at war. Terrorists (In J&K or in NWFP) do not get POW status by the Geneva convention if captured. The whole flawed concept of equating these terrorists with an army is a self serving arguement that does not stand on its feet. 



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> In the Baitullah Mehsud killing, reports from US sources quoting US and Pakistani intelligence officials stated that the footage from the targeting UAV indicated his wife was present with other individuals (physician?). S-2 argued that 'associating with the enemy', or even being in their proximity, makes one the enemy, and that therefore the deliberate killing of these non-combatants is 'justified' in US eyes. Perhaps one should then hold the world's sole Super Power accountable before blaming Kashmiri insurgents.


As I said earlier, if the innocent civilians (not designated as enemy combatants) were expected to die then this is a terror strike as USA and Pakistan are not at war at this time. About accountability, please go ahead and hold USA accountable. It was your country they attacked and your civilians they killed. Or go and hold your govt accountable if this act was with their consent.

About associating with the enemy, are you then argueing that Kasmiri civilians using the infrastructure of J&K state or sharing a road with security forces are considered enemy personnel by these terrorists??

Arent these terrorists supposedly fighting for the freedom of these civilians only?? Or do these terrorists also subscribe to "with us or against us" doctrine??



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No other groups have indicated any interest in fighting the Pakistani State in those regions, so yes, it can be claimed with reasonable certainty that those fighting the PA and attacking civilians and non-civilians belong to the aforementioned groups. Also, the fact that in most tribal agencies the PA has evacuated the locals means most of those remaining are terrorists fighting the State.



Its a fairly naive logic to argue that all groups who want to fight PA will first declare their interest and intentions before starting the fight...How do you know these are not Afghan Taliban helping out their bretheren. Or may be some of your own citizens who are just pi ssed at PA for displacing them. After all the Pashtuns who live there are fierce fighters and have gone to wars for much less...


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## karan.1970

TaimiKhan said:


> If India had not attacked, there would not have been any need, as Mukhti bani would have been finished, or who knows it may have been designated one.
> 
> But as India attacked, it couldn't go to UN.



If my aunt had a mush, she would be my uncle.. 
C'mon TK, Hypotheticals dont cut it... You cant blame India for supporting terrorists if they were not declared as such. 

And No one considers a country attacking another as a terror strike..

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## TaimiKhan

karan.1970 said:


> If my aunt had a mush, she would be my uncle..
> C'mon TK, Hypotheticals dont cut it... You cant blame India for supporting terrorists if they were not declared as such.
> 
> And No one considers a country attacking another as a terror strike..



For us, they were terrorists and India supported them as freedom fighters. 

For you Kashmiri freedom fighters are terrorists but for us they are freedom fighters. 

And as for UN, well let them declare whomever they want whatever they want. That does not changes the facts on ground. 

We all know what is the worth of UN and what it can do. 

The powers sitting in that UN use it for their own purpose. 

Simple fact is, you call whatever you call kashmiri freedom fighters, we damn care, we will and should support them in fighting the Indian occupiers and yeah if they do kill innocents, it is their own doing, for which they will be responsible, but as long as they are killing the Indian occupying force, we are with them. 

UN was unable to help us in 71, so they shouldn't poke their nose in what we do, so let them declare whatever they want, facts are something else.


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## Mirza Jatt

Indian army is doing a great job in Kashmir by killing these *terrorists*.....Go Indian army...

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## karan.1970

TaimiKhan said:


> For us, they were terrorists and India supported them as freedom fighters.
> 
> For you Kashmiri freedom fighters are terrorists but for us they are freedom fighters.
> 
> And as for UN, well let them declare whomever they want whatever they want. That does not changes the facts on ground.
> 
> We all know what is the worth of UN and what it can do.
> 
> The powers sitting in that UN use it for their own purpose.
> 
> Simple fact is, you call whatever you call kashmiri freedom fighters, we damn care, we will and should support them in fighting the Indian occupiers and yeah if they do kill innocents, it is their own doing, for which they will be responsible, but as long as they are killing the Indian occupying force, we are with them.
> 
> UN was unable to help us in 71, so they shouldn't poke their nose in what we do, so let them declare whatever they want, facts are something else.



For a change I dont disagree with your post.. And this discussion is not about if Pakistan supports Terrorism in Kashmir. We all know it does.. 

The discussion was about a title change and if the new title is any more accurate than the older one. 


btw, do remember your perception of the worth of UN next time you talk about the UN resolution on Kashmir and the UN designation of Kashmir as a disputed area...

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## TheBraveHeart

TaimiKhan said:


> For us, they were terrorists and India supported them as freedom fighters.
> 
> *For you Kashmiri freedom fighters are terrorists but for us they are freedom fighters.
> *
> 
> Simple fact is, you call whatever you call kashmiri freedom fighters, we damn care, we will and should support them in fighting the Indian occupiers and yeah if they do kill innocents, it is their own doing, for which they will be responsible, but as long as they are killing the Indian occupying force, we are with them.
> 
> .


In the same breath sir, would you mind if a few Indians on this forum start supporting the TTP's and Balochi's calling them the freedom fighters who are fighting Pakistani forces illegal occupation of their lands. 

I guess u should not mind, next time ur armed forces are attacked and some1 says "Well done lads, but u cud hv killed a few more, U may call them terrorists but for a few others they are freedom fighters."

I know this is a Pakistani fora and u hv ur own rules, but the way u put forward ur points is really encouraging tit for tat comments and then u would say Indians troll but the fact remains otherwise.

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## TaimiKhan

TheBraveHeart said:


> *In the same breath sir, would you mind if a few Indians on this forum start supporting the TTP's and Balochi's calling them the freedom fighters who are fighting Pakistani forces illegal occupation of their lands. *
> 
> I guess u should not mind, next time ur armed forces are attacked and some1 says "Well done lads, but u cud hv killed a few more, U may call them terrorists but for a few others they are freedom fighters."
> 
> I know this is a Pakistani fora and u hv ur own rules, but the way u put forward ur points is really encouraging tit for tat comments and then u would say Indians troll but the fact remains otherwise.



You are most welcome to say whatever you want, that is fine with us as it is understandable by looking at the ..........................

And before you and others go on such rants, do remember, Kashmir is a disputed territory, while Baluchistan and FATA isn't. Agno, very specifically mentioned that a few posts above and this fact has been mentioned at many occasions, but for Indians it is hard to digest and understand, which as said above, is very understandable.


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## harish

TaimiKhan said:


> And before you and others go on such rants, do remember, Kashmir is a disputed territory, while Baluchistan and FATA isn't. Agno, very specifically mentioned that a few posts above and this fact has been mentioned at many occasions, but for Indians it is hard to digest and understand, which as said above, is very understandable.



So? Does the 'disputed' status or not really matter to the Balochi freedom fighters who do not want to be part of Pakistan? They want their own land and have wanted so since the time of Partition. Pakistan annexed Balochistan as part of their territory by force did it not? Is it not true that since then there have been more than one all out Wars of Independence fought by the Baloch Freedom Fighters against the Pakistani Armed Forces (NOT police or paramilitary mind you). So if it is against forum rules by dint of it belonging to you to call the Balochis as Freedom Fighters then those of us who want to remain here will necessarily need to toe the line. Otherwise, I must very humbly state that any reasonable right thinking person will doubtless not see merit in the pretty flimsy differentiation you are trying to put forward kind sir.

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## Nemesis

The thread title change is embarrassing. Here we have moderators who profess liberalism, however when it comes to Kashmir, freedom of speech goes out of the window. We have no problems if you call them freedom fighters or call it Azad Kashmir and Indian Occupied Kashmir, but why are you editing thread titles made by Indians? No matter how many times thread titles are changed, they shall remain terrorists for us and Azad Kashmir shall remain Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. 

I would also like to state that Pakistan's continuing insistence on calling terrorists in Kashmir as freedom fighters - people who target civilians more than security forces no matter what Pakistanis have been fed - is one of the reasons why Pakistan is under the grip of terrorism themselves. Hasn't the GOP heard of the saying - if you play with fire, you're gonna get burned?

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## TheBraveHeart

TaimiKhan said:


> You are most welcome to say whatever you want, that is fine with us as it is understandable by looking at the ..........................
> 
> *And before you and others go on such rants, do remember, Kashmir is a disputed territory, while Baluchistan and FATA isn't.* Agno, very specifically mentioned that a few posts above and this fact has been mentioned at many occasions, but for Indians it is hard to digest and understand, which as said above, is very understandable.



I see, now if some1 uses the same language as u and contradicts ur points its a rant..uuh?? If u dont hv the audacity to listen, understand and digest u shud not have the audacity to speak.

Also, who is the one to decide which territory is disputed and which is not??I dont think agno clarifies on that!!

For pakistan, kashmir is disputed but for Indians it is not... similarly, for pakistan the NWFP and balochistan may be not disputed but what if the Indians find it disputed?? Now dont bring in the UN/any other international body/US...the way we see it and u mentioned earlier they have nothing to poke their nose.

See, I am not here to pick up a fight but please don't unnecessarily try to provoke, U may support ur freedom fighters and we will support ours, thats alright but when u start glorifying them u warrant a response.

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## Skeptic

TaimiKhan said:


> You are most welcome to say whatever you want, that is fine with us as it is understandable by looking at the ..........................
> 
> And before you and others go on such rants, do remember, Kashmir is a disputed territory, while Baluchistan and FATA isn't. Agno, very specifically mentioned that a few posts above and this fact has been mentioned at many occasions, but for Indians it is hard to digest and understand, which as said above, is very understandable.



Disputed as per whom - A worthless UN....

Whose nett worth was not estimated beyond 2 fricking pennies by ---- you.

And the way in which the claimed to be disputed - is itself not beyond dispute.

Way to go Champ!!


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## karan.1970

TaimiKhan said:


> You are most welcome to say whatever you want, that is fine with us as it is understandable by looking at the ..........................
> 
> And before you and others go on such rants, do remember, Kashmir is a disputed territory, while Baluchistan and FATA isn't. Agno, very specifically mentioned that a few posts above and this fact has been mentioned at many occasions, but for Indians it is hard to digest and understand, which as said above, is very understandable.



Does the UN resolution on Kashmir that leads to the disputed status allow for armed insurgency by legitimizing it? No it doesnt.. Hence the arguement based on disputed status does not hold water..

So popular support in Pakistan for Kashmir insurgancy has nothing to do with the disputed status..

And you yourself said a couple of posts back that UN resolutions have no meaning anymore . To quote you...

_[I]"And as for UN, well let them declare whomever they want whatever they want. That does not changes the facts on ground. 

We all know what is the worth of UN and what it can do. 

UN was unable to help us in 71, so they shouldn't poke their nose in what we do, so let them declare whatever they want, facts are something else."_[/I]


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## Prometheus

TaimiKhan said:


> You give them.
> 
> But i bet that would be the Indian version.


never mind leave it...........that will be off topic.

@ on topic.................Go Indian security forces ................keep up the good work...........


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## dabong1

Karthic Sri said:


> hahaha..keep dreaming...the vermin that u want to kill are infact killing ur piglet scums..nd remember ur not not keeeping us out of Kashmir..we r keeping u scums out of Kashmir...



I think the india members including yourself now understand.......start calling the freedom fighters insulting names then expect the same back and we end up nowhere.
I dont expect you as an indian to call the kashmiris freedom fighters, so i except the phrase "militants" but when you start to call the freedom fighters "terrorist" then i will respond with "indian terror forces" and so forth untill we end up at pigs and rats.






Karthic Sri said:


> Please keep ur Ummah out of this....were is Ummah wen u guys were killing each other in Iran-iraq,Yemen etc..?



Internal differences always happen just like civil wars but that was not the point........the point was that if its non kashmiris fighting that are in kashmir then there the proof of the ummah helping out there fellow brothers.




Karthic Sri said:


> nd y dont u advise the PA to accord the same respect to the chechens,uzbeks,arabs who come to fight ur army since they r collaborating with Unkil..?



Let me anwer it like this.......do i give the same accord and respect to the all the other indian insurgent groups as i do to the kashmir freedom struggle.....NO
But if you are going to spread the issue into internal matters that concern pakistan then i will do the same when it comes to india.
When move out of the kashmir issue and try to link it baluchistan ect then expect the same.




Karthic Sri said:


> Can u define Kashmiris..?according to me the 4 million displaced Pandits are also Kashmiris..they dont hate IA..



Well to put it correctly the pandits are refugees.
Bring all the kashmiris back to kashmir from india-pakistan and let them vote on the issue of kashmir.......what you scared off? According to you indians the kashmiris love india and hate pakistan so you will the vote and thats the end of the matter.



Karthic Sri said:


> The ruksana begums,the jawans from Kashmir serving in IA...are they not Kashmiris..?



So the majority of the indian army fighting in kashmir are muslims?




Karthic Sri said:


> Yes there is a freedom struggle going on in Baluchistan.. Y dont u give freedom to the opressed and the repressed ppl there..?



When you do the same in Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram, Nagaland, Tripura,Punjab,Karnataka,Andhra Pradesh ect then i will take your advice.

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## igoogle

^^^^


Correction, major chunk of CRPF men and policemen fighting and killing those terrorists are drawn from Kashmir and Muslim Community.

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## dabong1

Prometheus said:


> What kind of freedom fighters are these who fight only near borders



Where do you expect them to fight?........Its like me saying "what kind of army fight near borders".....all of them.




Prometheus said:


> LOC and in valley and only are from a particular religion..............and they targeting another religion which forced around half a million flew valley.......freedom fighters



The majority of the indian army in kashmir is also from "one particular religion" and has also forced out millions from kashmir.


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## dabong1

igoogle said:


> ^^^^
> 
> 
> Correction, major chunk of CRPF men and policemen fighting and killing those terrorists are drawn from Kashmir and Muslim Community.



So your saying that he majority of the indian occupation army in kashmir is muslim.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Hi,
I met a mujahid how fought indian occupiers in indian occupied Kashmir and soviets in afghanistan..........God bless them ameen.
The mujaheed now a buisnessman working in charbahar or some iranian city.........told us how animals raped young kashmiri sisters in occupied kashmir....and how they (occupiers) used to cry and soil there pants after being captured.
I felt sorry for our brethern kashmiris......and pain for the attrocities they suffer.
My father was in GHQ i used to see pics of martyred kahmiri children,women and men brutaly killed by indian terrorists in occupied kashmir.
Im not a so called phony intelectual watever..........But i just want to tell indians on there face tht instead of rejected truth and ground realities........I ask u guys to just support the truth the justice shall prevail.
Give kashmiris a right to decide wat they want ......... u will get ur answer.
How will u feel if somebody comes and occupies ur country?kill ur children and rape ur mothers and sisters? and cry of being the saviour of ur land?
SUPPORT KASHMIRI PEOPLE AND THERE WILLS AND DESIRES.
Thts just wat i want to say....
Apologize if i hurt someones feelings
Thanks


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## karan.1970

dabong1 said:


> I think the india members including yourself now understand.......start calling the freedom fighters insulting names then expect the same back and we end up nowhere.
> I dont expect you as an indian to call the kashmiris freedom fighters, so i except the phrase "militants" but when you start to call the freedom fighters "terrorist" then i will respond with "indian terror forces" and so forth untill we end up at pigs and rats.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Internal differences always happen just like civil wars but that was not the point........the point was that if its non kashmiris fighting that are in kashmir then there the proof of the ummah helping out there fellow brothers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me anwer it like this.......do i give the same accord and respect to the all the other indian insurgent groups as i do to the kashmir freedom struggle.....NO
> But if you are going to spread the issue into internal matters that concern pakistan then i will do the same when it comes to india.
> When move out of the kashmir issue and try to link it baluchistan ect then expect the same.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well to put it correctly the pandits are refugees.
> Bring all the kashmiris back to kashmir from india-pakistan and let them vote on the issue of kashmir.......what you scared off? According to you indians the kashmiris love india and hate pakistan so you will the vote and thats the end of the matter.
> 
> 
> 
> So the majority of the indian army fighting in kashmir are muslims?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you do the same in Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram, Nagaland, Tripura,Punjab,Karnataka,Andhra Pradesh ect then i will take your advice.




I dont have any fundamental disconnects with what you said..However, why create these rules on the fly around who can be called what?? You call Indian Army what you want to and let me call these militants what I want to. *As long as we are within the limits of forum rules*, why force your sensibilities on mine and mine on yours..?

Sure, if the mods want to put in a rule disallowing calling Terrorists in Kashmir as terrorists, its a different story then. But till then, let each of us decide what do we want to call them or IA or BLA or TTP etc...*There is a thing called reciprocity you know...*

And do bring up discussions around Maoists, ULFA etc whenever you want to. By not talking about them, India's problems are not going to go away as wont Pakistan's.. Its really not a d**k measuring contest on who has more problems..

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## igoogle

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Hi,
> I met a mujahid how fought indian occupiers in indian occupied Kashmir and soviets in afghanistan..........God bless them ameen.
> The mujaheed now a buisnessman working in charbahar or some iranian city.........told us how animals raped young kashmiri sisters in occupied kashmir....and how they (occupiers) used to cry and soil there pants after being captured.
> I felt sorry for our brethern kashmiris......and pain for the attrocities they suffer.
> My father was in GHQ i used to see pics of martyred kahmiri children,women and men brutaly killed by indian terrorists in occupied kashmir.
> Im not a so called phony intelectual watever..........But i just want to tell indians on there face tht instead of rejected truth and ground realities........I ask u guys to just support the truth the justice shall prevail.
> Give kashmiris a right to decide wat they want ......... u will get ur answer.
> How will u feel if somebody comes and occupies ur country?kill ur children and rape ur mothers and sisters? and cry of being the saviour of ur land?
> SUPPORT KASHMIRI PEOPLE AND THERE WILLS AND DESIRES.
> Thts just wat i want to say....
> Apologize if i hurt someones feelings
> Thanks



Thanks for posting a spam email that has been flying all over the internet.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Indian Jatt said:


> Indian army is doing a great job in Kashmir by killing these *terrorists*.....Go Indian army...



Freedom fighters are doing a great job killing occupying, terrorizing Indian soldiers - Go Freedom Fighters!

See how easy it is to flame. 

Now refrain from this nonsense and if you don't have anything constructive to post then don't post.

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## igoogle

dabong1 said:


> So your saying that he majority of the indian occupation army in kashmir is muslim.



Well more then 70&#37; of Police in Kashmir is Kashmiris . And a majority of them are Muslims. 

Moreover: CRPF hires young men from the same area and trains them as they know the terrain very well, this helps in identifying and killing terrorists faster. (There are about 70 Battalion of CRPF in Kashmir that means around 90000 men) and majority of them Drawn from state of Jammu and Kashmir.

India Army comes to action only if called for. Majority of the work is Done by CRPF(Central reserve Police Force). So now tell me if a terrorist is killing a CRPF jawan. the chances are that he is killing a Kashmiri and most probably a Muslim. So there goes the support for terrorists put of the window. 

Nice strategy deployed by Indian security forces.

Time for some news: http://www.dailyindia.com/show/374164.php

*Army undertakes recruitment drive in Kashmir Valley*

Kupwara (Jammu and Kashmir), May 9: The Indian Army is conducting a recruitment rally in the Kupwara District of Jammu and Kashmir to provide an opportunity to unemployed youth to join. 

The rally is being conducted in phases. Currently, it is being held at the headquarters of 28 Infantry Division in Kupwara.

"We started the recruitment rally on April 30. The phase one of the rally was conducted in Tangdhar and Vajra Shakti Bridage (It involves exercising an infantry division and an independent mechanized brigade of 11 Corps). They requested us and you know that it is a difficult and remote region of the country. The second phase is being conducted here in Trigram, as you can see. This is the Vajra Division; the rally is being conducted here on their request," said Brigadier K D Malhotra, 28 Infantry Division, Kupwara.

He also said that several candidates have turned up in spite of bad weather. Passion for joining the army could be seen in every candidate, he added.

*"Sir, I would love to join the army. I had a brother who was in the army. One day we went to a forest just like that, where he was shot dead in front of me. That day, I took a pledge to join the army. I feel that even if I have to sacrifice my life, I would do that because I have seen so much," said Ghulam Qadir, a candidate.*

Unemployment is a major problem in the border and militancy prone areas of the Kashmir Valley. Such rallies are seen as a good opportunity for the unemployed young generation of the region. 

Such rallies are held more in the backward and underdeveloped areas of Kashmir like Tangdhar, Gurez, Keran, Machil.


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## Marxist

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Hi,
> I met a mujahid how fought indian occupiers in indian occupied Kashmir and soviets in afghanistan..........God bless them ameen.
> The mujaheed now a buisnessman working in charbahar or some iranian city.........told us how animals raped young kashmiri sisters in occupied kashmir....and how they (occupiers) used to cry and soil there pants after being captured.
> I felt sorry for our brethern kashmiris......and pain for the attrocities they suffer.



\


> My father was in GHQ i used to see pics of martyred kahmiri children,women and men brutaly killed by indian terrorists in occupied kashmir.
> Im not a so called phony intelectual watever..........But i just want to tell indians on there face tht instead of rejected truth and ground realities........I ask u guys to just support the truth the justice shall prevail.
> Give kashmiris a right to decide wat they want ......... u will get ur answer.



Kashmiris are exercising their right to vote on lok sabha,legislative,local and municipal body election so they don't need other elections


> How will u feel if somebody comes and occupies ur country?kill ur children and rape ur mothers and sisters? and cry of being the saviour of ur land?
> SUPPORT KASHMIRI PEOPLE AND THERE WILLS AND DESIRES.
> Thts just wat i want to say....
> Apologize if i hurt someones feelings
> Thanks



no comment..plz read histroy who first occupied kashmir ?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Mods should i now reply in same manner used by these indians?
i hope u wont ban be on this one will ya agnostic or webie?or other frnds?
should i??


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## toxic_pus

TaimiKhan said:


> Why should we celebrate their achievements when they top Indian civil service ?? It means they or he or she wants to be an Indian and play a part in its bureaucratic establishment and doesn't support freedom of Kashmir from the occupiers, they become traitors, don't they ??


Interesting observation.

Did it occur to you that joining India is also an option. That makes the so called 'freedom fighters' traitor to those who wish to remain with India.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Just curious...Was Mukti Bahini ever designated as a terrorist organization by UN?


Did the 'UN Al-Qaida and Taliban Sanctions Committee' exist in 1971? You know quite well that the spotlight on insurgent groups fighting today did not exist back then, nor, as TK explained, was there really enough time during the hight of the conflict in 1971 to be lobbying and pushing for these sorts of moves.

In any case, regardless of a 'UN terrorist designation, I fail to see how, even as Indian, you do not see that the EP rebels that were carrying out massacres of West Pakistani civilians (cutting off the breasts of women and killing babies even) and killed tens of thousands of West Pakistani civilians and left the bodies to rot in just a handful of cities alone, do not qualify as terrorists? 

The actions of the rebels, and continued Indian support for them that prolonged the conflict, was directly responsible for Operation Searchlight and the breakdown in discipline in the PA when confronted with rebel atrocities - ultimately the open support by India for the rebels was a declaration of war on Pakistan - much as Indians argue that any terrorist attack against Indian supported by the Pakistani State will be an act of war against India.

Almost every Pakistani here has been unequivocal in condemning insurgent violence against civilians. Yet Indians continue to weasel around in not condemning Indian support for the terrorists/rebels in East Pakistan, that committed documented atrocities, while in the same breath arguing that Pakistanis are supporting terrorists in supporting insurgents. Some Indians are in fact justifying present day terrorism and atrocities by somehow arguing that the killing of school teachers, principals, laborers and other civilians is 'justified! I have seen no word of condemnation from any Indian on this thread for those people blatantly supporting the killings of innocent civilians in Balochistan.

The hypocrisy is plain, and of all people, you were one of the Indians I though would see why the Indian position on EP is wrong, and condemn IG and India for supporting terrorists in 1971.

Indians need to stop making the 'good terrorist vs bad terrorist' distinction regarding their support for terrorists in East Pakistan.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Mods should i now reply in same manner used by these indians?
> i hope u wont ban be on this one will ya agnostic or webie?or other frnds?
> should i??



Don't reply in the same manner.

The moderation team has made clear what it expects in terms of post content and what is off limits, and those who refuse to follow guidelines will be banned.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

TheBraveHeart said:


> In the same breath sir, would you mind if a few Indians on this forum start supporting the TTP's and Balochi's calling them the freedom fighters who are fighting Pakistani forces illegal occupation of their lands.



The TTP and Balch groups have openly accepted attacks on civilians and their murders, and they openly advocate them - supporting them would be open support for terrorism, and if you wish to do so go ahead (and we will go ahead and act as we see fit). On the TTP count at least Uncle Sam will be quite interested in your 'support for them'.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Nemesis said:


> The thread title change is embarrassing. Here we have moderators who profess liberalism, however when it comes to Kashmir, freedom of speech goes out of the window. We have no problems if you call them freedom fighters or call it Azad Kashmir and Indian Occupied Kashmir, but why are you editing thread titles made by Indians? No matter how many times thread titles are changed, they shall remain terrorists for us and Azad Kashmir shall remain Pakistan Occupied Kashmir.
> 
> I would also like to state that Pakistan's continuing insistence on calling terrorists in Kashmir as freedom fighters - people who target civilians more than security forces no matter what Pakistanis have been fed - is one of the reasons why Pakistan is under the grip of terrorism themselves. Hasn't the GOP heard of the saying - if you play with fire, you're gonna get burned?


The reasons for the title change have been provided in previous posts and they are sound.

Please read through them if you have any questions.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*OK - end of discussion on the title change.

The thread shall continue as the sole thread for posting news about encounters in J&K

Any more posts that are off topic are gone since enough has been said and the discussion is starting to go around in circles with the same points being made again.
*


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ...nor, as TK explained, was there really enough time during the hight of the conflict in 1971 to be lobbying and pushing for these sorts of moves.


...and yet during the same time period India managed to clinch a ground breaking deal with USSR and lobby extensively against Pakistan in Europe. 



> The actions of the rebels, and continued Indian support for them that prolonged the conflict, was directly responsible for Operation Searchlight...



Thats batpi$$ that you are peddling. India's support came long after 25/26th March and there wasn't any significant violence that would warrant a crackdown of 25/26 March.

Even Pakistan's White Paper, which attempted to provide day by day account from 1st March to 25th March, couldn't provide any evidence of 'actions of the rebels' prior to Operation Searchlight, let alone Indian support.

Even if we assume that there was violence, why was PA withdrawn to the barracks on 3rd March (IIRC) and was only let loose on 25th March?


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## KS

dabong1 said:


> I think the india members including yourself now understand.......start calling the freedom fighters insulting names then expect the same back and we end up nowhere.
> I dont expect you as an indian to call the kashmiris freedom fighters, so i except the phrase "militants" but when you start to call the freedom fighters "terrorist" then i will respond with "indian terror forces" and so forth untill we end up at pigs and rats.



They r terrorists mate. and no amount of sugar-coating can change it.
And if u call them freedom fighters then TTP,BLA are all freedom fighter to Indians. 




dabong1 said:


> Internal differences always happen just like civil wars but that was not the point........the point was that if its non kashmiris fighting that are in kashmir then there the proof of the ummah helping out there fellow brothers.



Oh u use chemical weapons and kill lakhs jus for the sake of some petty internal diferences.Now now i ll leav this and spare u the difficulty of convincing me abt ur Ummah.





dabong1 said:


> Well to put it correctly the pandits are refugees.
> Bring all the kashmiris back to kashmir from india-pakistan and let them vote on the issue of kashmir.......what you scared off? According to you indians the kashmiris love india and hate pakistan so you will the vote and thats the end of the matter.



Pandits are refugees who are Kashmiri and were hounded out of Kashmir by terrorists.
The simple reason we r not holding the plebiscite is Pakistan has not moved out its settlers from P-O-K and more importantly we dont have to prove to anyone that Kashmir is with India by holding a referendum.
We cant hold referendum jus for the sake the "UN"ABLE or Pakistan asks us to do..It is our wish whether to hold or not.





dabong1 said:


> So the majority of the indian army fighting in kashmir are muslims?



The army has long given its duties to the RR and the native Kashmiri police.So the many in RR and almost the whole Kashmiri police is Muslim.




dabong1 said:


> When you do the same in Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram, Nagaland, Tripura,Punjab,Karnataka,Andhra Pradesh ect then i will take your advice.



The last time i heard Arunachal is said that they r proud Indians and will fight against China in case of Invasion.and there is no militant group in Meghalaya,.As for the rest of the NE militant groups almost all of them ahve been done away with except one ot two and they too are on their death beds.
nd Mate where did Karnataka and Andhra come from..?do u even know their location on an India map..?


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## karan.1970

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Hi,
> I met a mujahid how fought indian occupiers in indian occupied Kashmir and soviets in afghanistan..........God bless them ameen.
> The mujaheed now a buisnessman working in charbahar or some iranian city.........told us how animals raped young kashmiri sisters in occupied kashmir....and how they (occupiers) used to cry and soil there pants after being captured.
> I felt sorry for our brethern kashmiris......and pain for the attrocities they suffer.
> My father was in GHQ i used to see pics of martyred kahmiri children,women and men brutaly killed by indian terrorists in occupied kashmir.
> Im not a so called phony intelectual watever..........But i just want to tell indians on there face tht instead of rejected truth and ground realities........I ask u guys to just support the truth the justice shall prevail.
> Give kashmiris a right to decide wat they want ......... u will get ur answer.
> How will u feel if somebody comes and occupies ur country?kill ur children and rape ur mothers and sisters? and cry of being the saviour of ur land?
> SUPPORT KASHMIRI PEOPLE AND THERE WILLS AND DESIRES.
> Thts just wat i want to say....
> Apologize if i hurt someones feelings
> Thanks



Its funny how you apologize after copy pasting a spam from the internet. I would accept your apology, but the last time I did that, my post got deleted. I can very well find a similar post from the net about Pakistan too... but whats the point.. what are you trying to say that this different from the last 20 + pages....??


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Did the 'UN Al-Qaida and Taliban Sanctions Committee' exist in 1971? You know quite well that the spotlight on insurgent groups fighting today did not exist back then, nor, as TK explained, was there really enough time during the hight of the conflict in 1971 to be lobbying and pushing for these sorts of moves.



I am not refering to the terroris org label that came into being in 2001. But apart from Pakistan, who labels Mukti Bahini as a terrorist organization. Did any major world power support this contention in 1971. I dont think the Mukti Bahini phenomenon lasted just for weeks that it did not give enough time to Pakistan to push for these moves. I think Pakistan was too busy and too secure in the Operation Searchlight to think of that. The thought of branding MB as a terror org is primarily an after thought after losing the war Pakistan never expected to fight, let alone lose..




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> In any case, regardless of a 'UN terrorist designation, I fail to see how, even as Indian, you do not see that the EP rebels that were carrying out massacres of West Pakistani civilians (cutting off the breasts of women and killing babies even) and killed tens of thousands of West Pakistani civilians and left the bodies to rot in just a handful of cities alone, do not qualify as terrorists?
> 
> The actions of the rebels, and continued Indian support for them that prolonged the conflict, was directly responsible for Operation Searchlight and the breakdown in discipline in the PA when confronted with rebel atrocities - ultimately the open support by India for the rebels was a declaration of war on Pakistan - much as Indians argue that any terrorist attack against Indian supported by the Pakistani State will be an act of war against India.


I dont claim to know much about this war but I think the sequencing is wrong. You have the cause and effect mixed up.. Also you are leaving out the genocide committed by PA in Bangladesh the size of which is estimated by some in millions. 

In my view, the closest event you can compare that time is with the partition of India and Pakistan. The atrocities on both sides were no better at that time as well..






AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Almost every Pakistani here has been unequivocal in condemning insurgent violence against civilians. Yet Indians continue to weasel around in not condemning Indian support for the terrorists/rebels in East Pakistan, that committed documented atrocities, while in the same breath arguing that Pakistanis are supporting terrorists in supporting insurgents.


I dont agree to this statement. There are a bunch on this forum as well who actually take pride in the events of Mumbai and make veiled threats to that happeneing again. But then idiots know no national boundaries and are truly global.

That aside, I wonder why whenever I read about Bangladesh, I see the words Pakistani genocide and sexual abuse of women.. But hardly any talk of India supported terrorism. 

But as I said.. I dont know about that war much (from a Bangladesh angle). Will however do some research on that and come back with my views if anyone would be interested..




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Some Indians are in fact justifying present day terrorism and atrocities by somehow arguing that the killing of school teachers, principals, laborers and other civilians is 'justified! I have seen no word of condemnation from any Indian on this thread for those people blatantly supporting the killings of innocent civilians in Balochistan.


And I find that as deplorable as people justifying deaths in Kashmir as collateral damage of a war against Indian Army...Both stands are misguided but unfortunately, one feeds the other..




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The hypocrisy is plain, and of all people, you were one of the Indians I though would see why the Indian position on EP is wrong, and condemn IG and India for supporting terrorists in 1971.
> 
> Indians need to stop making the 'good terrorist vs bad terrorist' distinction regarding their support for terrorists in East Pakistan.



As I said.. dont have a researched stand on this and will come back with one. 

btw if MB does turn out to be like a terror organization, is Pakistan now justifying support for terrorists in India based on that??


On a different note.. I remember the 1st war of independence (common for our 2 countries) where Indian soldiers while revolting against their leaders committed atrocities in response to the atrocities of English rule. In your view was that terrorism??


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The reasons for the title change have been provided in previous posts and they are sound.
> 
> Please read through them if you have any questions.



Agno..How do you expect Indian members to post in a thread the title of which is against their views... 

Is this your way of telling us that we can not post news of encounters in J&K on this forum???


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## Bang Galore

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Did the 'UN Al-Qaida and Taliban Sanctions Committee' exist in 1971? You know quite well that the spotlight on insurgent groups fighting today did not exist back then, nor, as TK explained, was there really enough time during the hight of the conflict in 1971 to be lobbying and pushing for these sorts of moves.



That's why 2010 is not 1971 or another year. What might have been acceptable then is not acceptable now. In any case history does not begin at the point of your choosing , in this case the year 1971. What about 1965 and Pakistan's actions in Kashmir then? Can history be seen in isolation just because it suits the argument you are making? 
It's almost 40 years. Move on. You tried doing the same in Punjab with the Khalistan movement in the 1980's & failed. 




> In any case, regardless of a 'UN terrorist designation, I fail to see how, even as Indian, you do not see that the EP rebels that were carrying out massacres of West Pakistani civilians (cutting off the breasts of women and killing babies even) and killed tens of thousands of West Pakistani civilians and left the bodies to rot in just a handful of cities alone, do not qualify as terrorists?



Maybe because we don't have to go back that far in history to see massacres. Most Indians were not even born then. Pakistan's proxies are doing that to our civilians today and have been doing that for a number of years. Going back in history to band someone terrorists is a perilous journey. At what point do you stop and why would you stop there?





> Yet Indians continue to weasel around in not condemning Indian support for the terrorists/rebels in East Pakistan, that committed documented atrocities, while in the same breath arguing that Pakistanis are supporting terrorists in supporting insurgents.




You know what sounds like weaseling out?

#1)The argument that non state actors are responsible for killings in India & that the Pakistani government is not responsible for actions by terrorist groups acting from within their country or territory which is under control of Pakistan.

#2) Banning organisations because of international pressure & then allowing them to function either under a different name or allowing them to call all party meetings on water dispute with India where they seek Pakistan government's permission to get "Kashmiri mujahideen" to ostensibly carry out terrorist attacks.

#3) Claiming that Pakistan only provides moral support to the Kashmiri militants. Not having the guts to admit like below:


TaimiKhan said:


> Simple fact is, you call whatever you call kashmiri freedom fighters, *we damn care, we will and should support them in fighting the Indian occupiers and yeah if they do kill innocents, it is their own doing, for which they will be responsible, but as long as they are killing the Indian occupying force, we are with them.
> *




and many more that I cannot be bothered to mention. I'm sure you get the drift....




> The hypocrisy is plain, and of all people, you were one of the Indians I though would see why the Indian position on EP is wrong, and condemn IG and India for supporting terrorists in 1971.



None of us are going to condemn it. Get over it! Make your arguments for 2010 not for every period since 1000 A.D.



> Indians need to stop making the 'good terrorist vs bad terrorist' distinction regarding their support for terrorists in East Pakistan.



You stop that for terrorists existing now now in 2010 and then ask us to go about doing it for the past. Isn't the change of title of this thread an indication that you still seek to make that distinction.


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## karan.1970

On a lighter note--- We have moved from the discussion on the so called disputed land to so called disputed thread 


*lets get over this.. I for one will not post in this thread after this post. Have created another one with a probably more acceptable title. Lets see if that works...*

EDIT: *Looks like it didn't*


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## Prometheus

RIP the brave Indian soldiers..........


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> I am not refering to the terroris org label that came into being in 2001. But apart from Pakistan, who labels Mukti Bahini as a terrorist organization. Did any major world power support this contention in 1971. I dont think the Mukti Bahini phenomenon lasted just for weeks that it did not give enough time to Pakistan to push for these moves. I think Pakistan was too busy and too secure in the Operation Searchlight to think of that. The thought of branding MB as a terror org is primarily an after thought after losing the war Pakistan never expected to fight, let alone lose..


 Labels are not important, actions are. And by the actions of the rebels in East Pakistan it is clear they committed acts of terror and were terrorists. As an individual looking back at these atrocities and violence against the State committed by the rebels, and India's support for them, how can you not condemn them and India's policies?




> I dont claim to know much about this war but I think the sequencing is wrong. You have the cause and effect mixed up.. Also you are leaving out the genocide committed by PA in Bangladesh the size of which is estimated by some in millions.


The cause and effect is correct. Operation Searchlight was in response to the violence by rebels. Why else would a full fledged military operation be launched? 

The declassified parts of the HR commission report, that was extremely critical of the military and its officers, points this out:



> 2. It is necessary that this painful chapter of the events in East Pakistan be looked at in its proper perspective. Let it not be forgotten that the initiative in resorting to violence and cruelty was taken by the militants of the Awami League, during the month of March, 1971, following General Yahya Khan's announcement of the 1st of March regarding the postponement of the session of the National Assembly scheduled for the 3rd of March 1971. It will be recalled that from the 1st of March to the 3rd of March 1971, the Awami League had taken complete control of East Pakistan, paralysing the authority of the federal government. There is reliable evidence to show that during this period the miscreants indulged in large scale massacres and rape against pro-Pakistan elements, in the towns of Dacca, Narayanganj, Chittagong, Chandraghona, Rangamati, Khulna, Dinajpur, Ghafargaoa, Kushtia, Ishurdi, Noakhali, Sylhet, Maulvi Bazaar, Rangpur, Saidpur, Jessore, Barisal, Mymensingh, Rajshahi, Pabna, Sirajgonj, Comilla, Brahman Baria, Bogra, Naugaon, Santahar, and several other smaller places.
> 
> 3. Harrowing tales of these atrocities were narrated by the large number of West Pakistanis and Biharis who were able to escape from these places and reach the safety of West Pakistan. For days on end, all through the troubled month of March 1971, swarms of terrorised non-Bengalis lay at the Army-controlled Dacca airport awaiting their turn to be taken to the safety of West Pakistan. Families of West Pakistani officers and other ranks serving with East Bengal units were subjected to inhuman treatment, and a large number of West Pakistani officers were butchered by the erstwhile Bengali colleagues.
> 
> 4. These atrocities were completely blacked out at the time by the Government of Pakistan for fear of retaliation by the Bengalis living in West Pakistan. The Federal Government did issue a White Paper in this behalf in August 1971, but unfortunately it did not create much impact for the reason that it was highly belated, and adequate publicity was not given to it in the national and international press.
> 
> 5. However, recently, a renowned journalist of high-standing, Mr. Qutubuddin Aziz, has taken pains to marshal the evidence in a publication called "Blood and Tears." The book contains the harrowing tales of inhuman crimes committed on the helpless Biharis, West Pakistanis and patriotic Bengalis living in East Pakistan during that period. According to various estimates mentioned by Mr. Qutubuddin Aziz, between 100,000 and 500,000 persons were slaughtered during this period by the Awami League militants.
> 
> 6. As far as we can judge, Mr Qutubuddin Aziz has made use of authentic personal accounts furnished by the repatriates whose families, have actually suffered at the hands of the Awami League militants. He has also extensively referred to the contemporary accounts of foreign correspondents then stationed in East Pakistan. The plight of the non-Bengali elements still living in Bangladesh and the insistence of that Government on their large-scale repatriation to Pakistan, are factors which appear to confirm the correctness of the allegations made against the Awami League in this behalf.



There are various other accounts, including by Westerners critical of the PA's actions in EP, that confirm the atrocities committed by the East Pakistani rebels on West Pakistanis, and some of this was discussed in this thread:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/26732-atrocities-1971-civil-war.html

The atrocities committed by the EP rebels and the fact that the military crackdown was in response to the violence by the rebels (even if there are disagreements on the scale of the violence) is IMO beyond doubt. 



> In my view, the closest event you can compare that time is with the partition of India and Pakistan. The atrocities on both sides were no better at that time as well..


What is being pointed out here is Indian support for rebels that destabilized a nation and committed horrific atrocities, not just a comparison of atrocities.


> I dont agree to this statement. There are a bunch on this forum as well who actually take pride in the events of Mumbai and make veiled threats to that happeneing again. But then idiots know no national boundaries and are truly global.


I would argue they are in a significant minority - but the gentlemen on this thread have openly justified the murder of innocents in Baluchistan.



> And I find that as deplorable as people justifying deaths in Kashmir as collateral damage of a war against Indian Army...Both stands are misguided but unfortunately, one feeds the other..


There is no comparison - in one case we have accidental deaths of civilians (collateral damage), in the other we have groups like the BLA and TTP openly claiming the killings of innocents and calling for more, in the case of the former essentially calling for a genocide.

There is a huge difference between the two POV.



> btw if MB does turn out to be like a terror organization, is Pakistan now justifying support for terrorists in India based on that??


If they committed acts of terror, which it is clear they did, they are a terrorist organization. And the argument (here at least) is not that Pakistan is justified in using terrorism because India did so in 1971, but that if Indians want to call Pakistani support for the insurgency in Kashmir 'support for terrorism' and if they condemn such support regardless of whether it results in innocents being killed or not, then they should end double standards and this 'good terrorist vs bad terrorist' distinction and also condemn Indian support for terrorism in East Pakistan.


> On a different note.. I remember the 1st war of independence (common for our 2 countries) where Indian soldiers while revolting against their leaders committed atrocities in response to the atrocities of English rule. In your view was that terrorism??


Let me turn it around, if you view those acts as acceptable, then does that not also make all acts in J&K by insurgents acceptable? And then does that not also make support for any and all anti-State groups in any nation (India has plenty) a legitimate goal? In which case what are Indians complaining about?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> *lets get over this.. I for one will not post in this thread after this post. Have created another one with a probably more acceptable title. Lets see if that works...*
> 
> EDIT: *Looks like it didn't*


As I said earlier, any posts related to encounters in J&K need to go in this thread.

If you do not wish to post that is your prerogative, but I think the current thread title appropriately represents the views of both sides. It does not delegitemize IA operations, but at the same time also reflects the goals of the insurgents appropriately.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Bang Galore said:


> That's why 2010 is not 1971 or another year. What might have been acceptable then is not acceptable now. In any case history does not begin at the point of your choosing , in this case the year 1971. What about 1965 and Pakistan's actions in Kashmir then? Can history be seen in isolation just because it suits the argument you are making?
> It's almost 40 years. Move on. You tried doing the same in Punjab with the Khalistan movement in the 1980's & failed.


What about 1965? An attempted covert intrusion into disputed territory to spark a rebellion against an occupation? You'll find plenty of Pakistani commentators in the mainstream media condemning the Ayub decision to do that, Where is the condemnation for Indian support for terrorism (the resulted in documented atrocities and essentially a genocide against West Pakistanis) in 1971?

And atrocities and a reign of terror supported by India, that resulted in tens of thousands massacred in cold blood, and nation torn apart, cannot just be 'moved on from'. The holocaust was a crime that is condemned to this day, and a far older one than the crimes perpetrated in East Pakistan by Indian supported terrorists. One would expect Indians to have the decency to accept their wrongs and condemn those crimes and Indira Gandhi's policies in supporting them, instead of glorifying them. 

The hypocrisy here, when you Indians make their own 'good terrorist vs bad terrorist' distinctions, is astounding. And as I said before, Indians would find a lot more support for their positions on Kashmir, if they applied the same standards to the events in 1971 and condemned them. Instead we have Indians now attempting to openly justify blatant terrorism and atrocities in Baluchistan using almost identical excuses to those used to justify support for terrorism in 1971.



> Maybe because we don't have to go back that far in history to see massacres. Most Indians were not even born then. Pakistan's proxies are doing that to our civilians today and have been doing that for a number of years. Going back in history to band someone terrorists is a perilous journey. At what point do you stop and why would you stop there?


This is not that 'far back in history', if the holocaust can be condemned, if atrocities by the PA in 1971 can be condemned, then so can the atrocities by the EP rebels and Indian support for them.



> #1)The argument that non state actors are responsible for killings in India & that the Pakistani government is not responsible for actions by terrorist groups acting from within their country or territory which is under control of Pakistan.


Given that similar non-state actors are also attacking the Pakistani State, with far more regularity, destruction and complexity than what happened in Mumbai, indicates that the argument by the GoP is legitimate and valid.



> #2) Banning organisations because of international pressure & then allowing them to function either under a different name or allowing them to call all party meetings on water dispute with India where they seek Pakistan government's permission to get "Kashmiri mujahideen" to ostensibly carry out terrorist attacks.


The UN calls for a banning of an entity, it does not call for arrests and what not, and therefore cannot prevent the opening of new organizations with slight modifications, especially when the UN does not determine guilt through any sort of fair judicial process and local courts find no evidence to uphold the 'terrorist' determination.

See how the EU has struggled with similar issues related to the UN's rather opaque and flawed process of terrorist designations:

Perspectives on Terrorism - UN Terrorist Designation System Needs Reform


> None of us are going to condemn it. Get over it! Make your arguments for 2010 not for every period since 1000 A.D.


Actually the arguments are for the year 1971, not 1000 A.D, though you may wish Indian State support for terrorism was that long ago. And the lack of condemnation of Indian State support for terrorism, both in 1971 and more recently in Baluchistan, only indicates what sort of poisoned mindset the GoI has brainwashed many Indians to possess.


> You stop that for terrorists existing now now in 2010 and then ask us to go about doing it for the past. Isn't the change of title of this thread an indication that you still seek to make that distinction.


I am open to changing the title further if most Indians on this forum apply consistent standards and condemn Indian support for terrorism in 1971.

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## Dr.Evil

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I am open to changing the title further if most Indians on this forum apply consistent standards and condemn Indian support for terrorism in 1971.



We will never agree to your interpretation of 1971 war of liberation of Bangladesh as terrorism.

If most of the countries of the world agree that what India had done in 1971 was terrorism then we might accept.

Apart from pakistan no one in this whole world calls it as terrorism.

*This is your forum call terrorism by whatever name, whichever suits pakistan's ego.*

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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I am open to changing the title further if most Indians on this forum apply consistent standards and condemn Indian support for terrorism in 1971.



Did Pakistan classify them as Terrorists? IIRC, No. You cannot term them as terrorists here then.

Secondly, the group arose due to West Pakistan's unfair policies towards the erstwhile East Pakistan.

*Origins of Mukti Bahini*


> Although Mukti Bahini was formed to fight off the military crackdown by the Pakistan army on March 25, 1971 during the climax of Bangladesh freedom movement, The crisis had already started taking shape with anti-Ayub uprising in 1969 and precipitated into a political crisis at the height of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman's Six-point movement beginning in the 1970s. In March 1971, rising political discontent and cultural nationalism in what was then East Pakistan (later, Bangladesh) was met by harsh[3] suppressive force from the ruling elite of the West Pakistan establishment[4] in what came to be termed Operation Searchlight.[5]
> The massive crackdown by West Pakistan forces[6] became an important factor in precipitating the civil war as a sea of refugees (estimated at the time to be about 10million)[7][8] came flooding to the eastern provinces of India.[7] *Facing a mounting humanitarian crisis, India started actively aiding and re-organising what was by this time already the nucleus of the Mukti Bahini.*
> The immediate precursor of the Mukti Bahini was Mukti Fauj ("Fauj" is the Urdu originally from Persian borrowed from Arabic for "Brigade" exported into several languages in South Asia including Bengali), which was preceded denominationally by the sangram parishads formed in the cities and villages by the student and youth leaderships in early March 1971. When and how the Mukti Fauj was created is not clear nor is the later adoption of the name Mukti Bahini. It is, however, certain that the names originated generically refer to the people who fought in the Bangladesh liberation war.
> 
> Final Phase:
> The liberation forces started carrying out massive raids into enemy fronts from October 1971. After the signing of the Indo-Soviet Treaty in August 1971, India began to demonstrate more interest in the Bangladesh war. *Eventually India legally entered the war on 3 December 1971 (Indo-Pakistani War of 1971) after Pakistan's preemptive air raids on some Indian cities in the western border*. In fact, the Indian soldiers were already participating in the war in different guises since November when the independence fighters had launched the Belonia battle. When the Indian Army planned to avoid battles and seize the capital Dhaka in the shortest campaign possible, the Mukti Bahini made the task much easier by confining the Pakistani army and holding them back from moving towards to capital.



The situation that presented itself to India at that time was both a humanitarian crisis and an opportunity to teach the military leadership in Pakistan a lesson. And India grabbed that opportunity.

If Pakistan has classified the Mukti Bahini as a terrorist organization, then we will have no qualms condemning the actions of '71.


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## Windjammer

Dr.Evil said:


> We will never agree to your interpretation of 1971 war of liberation of Bangladesh as terrorism.
> 
> If most of the countries of the world agree that what India had done in 1971 was terrorism then we might accept.
> 
> Apart from pakistan no one in this whole world calls it as terrorism.
> 
> *This is your forum call terrorism by whatever name which suits pakistan's ego.*



Neither does Indra Gandhi's statement that, "Indian forces have entered East Pakistan in..... SELF DEFENSE holds any water.
The other gloating terminology, "Second Liberation Of India" is also sufficient to satisfy the most ardent critic that the whole scenario was created by implying terrorism and supporting terrorist out fits to basically avenge the 1965 humiliation.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Dr.Evil said:


> We will never agree to your interpretation of 1971 war of liberation of Bangladesh as terrorism.
> 
> If most of the countries of the world agree that what India had done in 1971 was terrorism then we might accept.
> 
> Apart from pakistan no one in this whole world calls it as terrorism.
> 
> *This is your forum call terrorism by whatever name which suits pakistan's ego.*




If you do not call the massacres of innocent civilians, men, women and children, in pursuit of a political objective by East Pakistani rebels, terrorism, then please explain to me what it should be called and why the Mumbai attacks should be looked at differently.

Facts are facts - Indians cannot hide behind 'the world does not consider this terrorism'. Were the world to not consider Hitler's actions crimes, that would not change the nature of his crimes.

To refuse to accept the obvious facts of atrocities in the tens of thousands committed by EP rebels, backed by India, and hide behind absurd excuses such as 'no certificate of terrorism from the world' only shows how morally corrupt and bankrupt the mindset of some Indians has become.

It is not me who is 'calling terrorism by whatever name I please', Indians are making this distinction of 'good terrorism vs bad terrorism' by glorifying the events of 1971 and not condemning the actions of the GOI in supporting terrorism.

Apply a balanced approach, and as I said, I am open to also applying the same balanced approach.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> Did Pakistan classify them as Terrorists? IIRC, No. You cannot term them as terrorists here then.



See my previous post.


> Secondly, the group arose due to West Pakistan's unfair policies towards the erstwhile East Pakistan.



See my last response to Karan on how Operation Searchlight was in response to violence and atrocities by EP rebels.


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## Dr.Evil

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> If you do not call the massacres of innocent civilians, men, women and children, in pursuit of a political objective by East Pakistani rebels, terrorism, then please explain to me what it should be called and why the Mumbai attacks should be looked at differently.
> 
> Facts are facts - Indians cannot hide behind 'the world does not consider this terrorism'. Were the world to not consider Hitler's actions crimes, that would not change the nature of his crimes.
> 
> To refuse to accept the obvious facts of atrocities in the tens of thousands committed by EP rebels, backed by India, and hide behind absurd excuses such as 'no certificate of terrorism from the world' only shows how morally corrupt and bankrupt the mindset of some Indians has become.
> 
> It is not me who is 'calling terrorism by whatever name I please', Indians are making this distinction of 'good terrorism vs bad terrorism' by glorifying the events of 1971 and not condemning the actions of the GOI in supporting terrorism.
> 
> Apply a balanced approach, and as I said, I am open to also applying the same balanced approach.



Did GOP ever declare Mukthi Bahini as a terrorist Organization ?

If at all those LET terrorists are able to carveout a separate state for them, then you call them freedom fighters , Until then those Orgnizations and members are to be treated as terrorists.

*Was Bhagat Singh a terrorist in your esteemed view ?*


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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> See my last response to Karan on how Operation Searchlight was in response to violence and atrocities by EP rebels.



I do agree on the reasons for Op Searchlight. 

However, why did West Pakistan not agree for the transfer of power to Mujib after the elections? Why was the 6-point program not implemented? There was a disproportionate flow of capital from the East to the West, however, the same could not be said about the political power considering that East Pakistan population made up the majority of then Pakistan's population!

There were reasons as to why the Bengalis arose in revolt. And instead of finding a political solution the rulers in W. Pakistan resorted to military might. India came into the picture much after the Op Searchlight.


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## Windjammer

US report details direct RAW involvement in East Pakistan secession
A sensational American report has confirmed the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW), Indias most powerful intelligence agency, was directly involved in the secession of East Pakistan into Bangladesh, and is currently engaged in similar activities. RAW has a long history of activity in Bangladesh supporting both secular forces and the areas Hindu minority, masterminding the break up of Pakistan in 1971,
says the report made available The report has been prepared by the innocent sounding Federation of American Scientists (FAS), a group which is however engaged in analysis and advocacy on science, technology and public policy concerning global security, especially about countries which have nuclear capability.
It is a privately funded non-profit policy organisation, whose Board of Sponsors includes 55 American Nobel laureates. FAS was originally founded as the Federation of Atomic Scientists in 1945 by members of the Manhattan Project, who produced the first atomic bomb. RAW is extensively engaged in disinformation campaigns, espionage, sabotage and terrorism against Pakistan and other neighboring countries, reveals the sensational secret report. It also gives details of the truly alarming involvement of RAW in terrorist activities in Pakistan. The report reveals the involvement of RAW in Bangladesh dating from the 1960s, when it promoted dissatisfaction against Pakistan in the then East Pakistan, including funding Mujibur Rahmans general election in 1970 and providing training and arming to the Mukti Bahini. The report claims an estimated 35,000 RAW agents have entered Pakistan at various times between 1983-99, with 12,000 having worked in the past or working presently in Sindh, 10,000 in Punjab 8,000 in North West Frontier Province and 5,000 in Balochistan. As many as 40 terrorist camps are currently operating at Rajasthan, East Punjab, [occupied] Kashmir, Uttar Pradesh and other parts of India and are run by RAWs Special Service Bureau [SSB], the report reveals. The report further confirms that throughout the Afghan War, RAW was responsible for the planning and execution of terrorist activities in Pakistan to deter Islamabad from supporting the Afghan liberation movement against Indias ally, the Soviet Union.
The assistance provided to RAW by the KGB enabled RAW to arrange terrorist attacks in Pakistani cities throughout the Afghan War, the report says. The defeat of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan did not end the role of RAW in Pakistan, as it established training camps in East Punjab, [occupied] Kashmir, Uttar Pradesh and Rajasthan where agents are trained for terrorist activities, it reveals.
It further says that RAW has become an effective instrument of Indias national power, and has assumed a significant role in formulating Indias domestic and foreign policies. RAW, according to the report, has enjoyed the backing of successive Indian governments in these efforts. Working directly under the Prime Minister, the structure rank, pay and perks of the Research and Analysis Wing are kept secret from parliament.
Current policy debates in India have generally failed to focus on the relative priority given by RAW to activities directed against Indias neighbours versus attention to domestic affairs to safeguard Indias security and territorial integrity, the report says. It points out that RAW has had limited success in dealing with separatist movements in Manipur and Tripura in the northeast, Tamil Nadu in the south and Punjab and Kashmir in the northwestern part of the country.
RAW, it adds, has failed to neutralise freedom fighters in Kashmir and similar indigenous movements in Kerala, Karnataka and other places, along with economic and industrial espionage activities in New Delhi and Bombay. Giving a background of the intelligence agency, the American report says RAW was set up in 1968 specifically targeted on Pakistan.
Pakistan, the report says, has accused RAW of sponsoring sabotage in its Punjab province, where it has been supporting the Seraiki movement, providing financial support to promote its activities in Pakistan and organising an International Seraiki Conference in Delhi in November December 1993&#8243;. It adds: RAW has an extensive network of agents and anti-government elements within Pakistan, including dissident elements from various sectarian and ethnic groups of Sindh and Punjab.
According to it, India is funding the current upsurge of terrorism in Pakistan and has been behind the sectarian violence between Shias and Sunnis, which has resulted in thousands of deaths in the last few years. Terrorist activities in Pakistan attributed to the clandestine activities of RAW in the report include:
A car bomb explosion in the Saddar area of Peshawar on 21 December 1995, which caused the death of 37 persons and injured over 50 others.
An explosion at Shaukat Khanum Hospital on 14 April 1996, claiming the lives of seven persons and injuries to over 34 others.
A bus traveling from Lahore to Sahiwal was blown up at Bhai Pheru on 28 April 1996, causing the deaths of 44 persons on the spot and injuring 30 others.
An explosion in a bus near the Sheikhupura Hospital killed nine persons and injured 29 others on 08 May 1996.
An explosion near Alam Chowk, Gujranwala on 10 June 1996 which killed three persons and injured 11 others.
A bomb exploded on a bus on GT Road near Kharian on 10 June 1996, killing 2 persons and injuring 10 others.
On 27 June 1996, an explosion opposite Madrassah Faizul Islam, Faizabad, Rawalpindi, killed 5 persons and injured over 50 others.
A bomb explosion in the Faisalabad Railway Station passenger lounge on 8 July 1996 killed 3 persons and injured 20 others.
Another startling claim made by the American report is that it was RAW that was behind the hijacking of an Indian airliner to Lahore in 1971, attributed to the Kashmiris, to give a terrorist dimension to the Kashmiri national movement.
The report continues: During the course of its investigation the Jain Commission received testimony on the official Indian support to the various Sri Lankan Tamil armed groups in Tamil Nadu, the report reveals. From 1981, RAW and the Intelligence Bureau, according to the report, established a network of as many as 30 training bases for these groups in India. Centres were also established at the high-security military installation of Chakrata, near Dehra Dun, and in the Ramakrishna Puram area of New Delhi.
The report says that RAW and the Ministry of External Affairs are provided Rs. 250 million annually as discretionary grants for foreign influence operations. These funds have supported organisations fighting Sikh and Kashmiri separatists in the UK, Canada and the US, it says.
It further reveals: An Extensive network of Indian operatives is controlled by the Indian Embassy in Washington, DC whose covert activities include the infiltration of US long distance telephone carriers by Indian operatives, with access to all kinds of information, to blackmail relatives of US residents living in India. Citing an example, it says that in 1996, an Indian diplomat was implicated in a scandal over illegal funding of political candidates in the US. Under US law foreign nationals are prohibited from contributing to federal elections.
The US District Court in Baltimore sentenced Lalit H. Gadhia, a naturalised US citizen of Indian origin, to three months imprisonment. Gadhia had confessed that he worked as a conduit between the Indian Embassy and various Indian-American organisations for funnelling campaign contributions to influence US lawmakers. Over US $46,000 from the Indian Embassy was distributed among 20 Congressional candidates. The source of the cash used by Gadhia was Devendra Singh, a RAW official assigned to the Indian Embassy in Washington, the report says. It adds that illicit campaign money received in 1995 went to Democratic candidates including US Senators Charles S Robb (D-VA), Paul S. Sarbanes (D-MD) and US Representatives Benjamin L Cardin (D-MD) and Steny H. Hoyer (D-MD)  (May 24, 1998)

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## DESERT FIGHTER

karan.1970 said:


> Its funny how you apologize *after copy pasting a spam from the internet*. I would accept your apology, but the last time I did that, my post got deleted. I can very well find a similar post from the net about Pakistan too... but whats the point.. what are you trying to say that this different from the last 20 + pages....??



Wat copy past?Wat spam?
only some blind moron will think of somebodys feelings and declares it a spam.
Also i was apologizing to KASHMIRIS tht we arent doing enough.
I dont apologize to shallow trolls.....


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> If you do not call the massacres of innocent civilians, men, women and children, in pursuit of a political objective by East Pakistani rebels, terrorism, then please explain to me what it should be called and why the Mumbai attacks should be looked at differently.
> 
> Facts are facts - Indians cannot hide behind 'the world does not consider this terrorism'. Were the world to not consider Hitler's actions crimes, that would not change the nature of his crimes.
> 
> To refuse to accept the obvious facts of atrocities in the tens of thousands committed by EP rebels, backed by India, and hide behind absurd excuses such as 'no certificate of terrorism from the world' only shows how morally corrupt and bankrupt the mindset of some Indians has become.
> 
> It is not me who is 'calling terrorism by whatever name I please', Indians are making this distinction of 'good terrorism vs bad terrorism' by glorifying the events of 1971 and not condemning the actions of the GOI in supporting terrorism.
> 
> Apply a balanced approach, and as I said, I am open to also applying the same balanced approach.


Anybody reading your post will actually think that the Bengalis of East Pakistan woke up one fine day and decided to massacre the innocent Pakistanis. What you are deliberately suppressing is the fact that the massacres by Bengalis, however regrettable it may be, were actually an inevitable reaction to PAs barbarism. 

Perhaps thats why ICJ (International Court of Jurists) thought that the Bengalis of East Pakistan were_ justified under domestic law, in using force, to resist the attempt by the self-appointed and illegal military regime to impose a different form of constitution upon the country to that approved by the majority of the people in a fair and free election(Conclusion; Para 7)_. 

Besides, you havent replied to me yet. Why is it that unclassified US documents do not speak of any violence prior to 25/26th March? Why is it that the International media didnt report anything significant prior to 25/26th March, except for the Wireless Colony incident on 4th? Why is it that the White Paper issued by Pakistan couldnt account for more than about 384 deaths, which also included death due to Police firing? More importantly, why was PA withdrawn to the barracks as early as 3rd March, 1971, if the situation was as grave as you want all of us to believe?

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## Prometheus

Dr.Evil said:


> Did GOP ever declare Mukthi Bahini as a terrorist Organization ?
> 
> If at all those LET terrorists are able to carveout a separate state for them, then you call them freedom fighters , Until then those Orgnizations and members are to be treated as terrorists.
> 
> *Was Bhagat Singh a terrorist in your esteemed view ?*



dude dont bring Bhagat singh into it...............someone will surely start comparing him to so called Kashmiri freedom fighters

they dont consider him a hero............


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## Cityboy

World including UN knows them [let,jud,jaish etc] AS TERRORISTS. .and yes gop too. .kya fark padta he? Agar kuch log unhe freedom fighter kahe? These jehadis r in the same category of TTP AND AQ. ..


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## foxbat

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> If you do not call the massacres of innocent civilians, men, women and children, in pursuit of a political objective by East Pakistani rebels, terrorism, then please explain to me what it should be called and why the Mumbai attacks should be looked at differently.
> 
> Facts are facts - Indians cannot hide behind 'the world does not consider this terrorism'. Were the world to not consider Hitler's actions crimes, that would not change the nature of his crimes.
> 
> To refuse to accept the obvious facts of atrocities in the tens of thousands committed by EP rebels, backed by India, and hide behind absurd excuses such as 'no certificate of terrorism from the world' only shows how morally corrupt and bankrupt the mindset of some Indians has become.
> 
> It is not me who is 'calling terrorism by whatever name I please', Indians are making this distinction of 'good terrorism vs bad terrorism' by glorifying the events of 1971 and not condemning the actions of the GOI in supporting terrorism.
> 
> Apply a balanced approach, and as I said, I am open to also applying the same balanced approach.



A few discrepencies in your comparisons.. Mumbai attackers ; at least the one captured and in all probability all of them; were foreign nationals where as Mukti Bahini, even if trained by India (your contention) were your own citizens.

And by comparing the 2 you are implicitly agreeing to the position of most of the Indian members that Pakistan is persuing its political objectives in India by sponsoring attacks like 26/11

Also you are using the term *facts are facts *a little too liberally. Its really your interpertation of facts and not the facts as you are trying to put it..

And really I think its you who is trying to hide by putting forward distorted versions of history and events to justify an incorrect stand today. Of course world opinion matters. In a bilateral issue the 2 parties will always have opposing contentions. How come yours become the facts. There are many literatures on the event in question that contradict your definition of facts as well. 

Also using terms like morally bankrupt and corrupt does not certify your version to be accurate. In my opinion, some Pakistanis, by putting forth such absurd claims, specially when Pakistani intellectuals have gone on record and apologised to Bangladesh for Pakistan's atrocities *before and after *the fateful March 1971, are simply trying to muddy up the water.. 

And I dont find it surprising. Because the trend is more or less same. You use the acts of Mukti Bahini to justify the subsequent genocide of hundreds of thousand people just like you use the disputed status of Kashmir, which really has nothing to do with insurgents attacking civilians, to justify the activities of groups like Hijbul, LeT etc in the state of J&K.


Forget world opinion, how many times has GoP demanded an apology or admission of guilt from the Bangladesh govt for committing the atrocities that you term as terrorism here??

Its interesting that you bring up Hitler as I remeber reading about the genocide inflicted by PA in East Pakistan only being second to the one inflicted by Hitler on the Jews. 

If there was terrorism in 1971, and I believe there was, it was propogated again by Pakistan on the people of then East Pakistan. 

The same definition can be applied to Pakistan sending insurgents into the Princely state of Kashmir in 1947 and I dont want to go into the atrocities committed by those irregulars at that time. May be the term terrorism didnt exist, but it was no different. 

You are really dreaming if you think an Indian member will agree to your stand here.. And its not because of so called Moral corruption but because of the absurdity of your claim. I see Karan saying that he will try and read up on the events, and I would like to see his response to this claim which I know wont be in this thread.... This thread anyway is shot to hell by now...

Also, this balanced approach you talk of, what exactly is that?? Agreeing that Pakistan is sponsoring terrorism in India today to reply to your definition of terrorism done by India in 1971?? Or simply changing the title of this thread to a more realistic one? 

btw, I like your play on the words of putting a glorifying adjective to the word insurgents while claiming the factual correctness of the title. If nothing else, it managed to move one of the members with an opposing view out of the thread

My advise Karan, dont take it too seriously. Its a forum and Mods, no matter how impartial are Pakistani nationals.. Dont be unrealistic in your expectations.. Remeber your own good views of the Mod team when you introduced me to this forum..


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## foxbat

dabong1 said:


> Calm down with the insults please.



Sometimes, they say that a miniscule event has disproportionate outcomes. 

In this thread, this was the turning point. If my Indian brothers had listened to the wise words here, we would still have a simple news reporting thread going on instead of a cyber mahabharat... 

Dabong, you tried your best man... too bad it didnt have the desired result...

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## EjazR

A comparative interview with Omar Abdulla is an interesting as well.

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## yashchauhan

A great show and the host is very smart and intelligent...he knows what he is doing!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> Anybody reading your post will actually think that the Bengalis of East Pakistan woke up one fine day and decided to massacre the innocent Pakistanis. What you are deliberately suppressing is the fact that the massacres by Bengalis, however regrettable it may be, were actually an inevitable reaction to PAs barbarism.


They didn't wake up 'one fine day', but when you start a violent rebel movement, especially one based on racial/ethnic hatred, then the chances of atrocities against the other 'race/ethnicity' increase, especially since the rebels are bound by no law. Even more ludicrous is the implication that the EP rebels were doing nothing but standing on street corners chanting and waving flags, and the GoP decide to launch a military operation against them. Operation Searchlight was launched because the rebels had resorted to violence and atrocities. And we see that is exactly what happened as documented in the HR commission report, which also explains the intial media blackout and its repercussions:



> 2. It is necessary that this painful chapter of the events in East Pakistan be looked at in its proper perspective. Let it not be forgotten that the initiative in resorting to violence and cruelty was taken by the militants of the Awami League, during the month of March, 1971, following General Yahya Khan's announcement of the 1st of March regarding the postponement of the session of the National Assembly scheduled for the 3rd of March 1971. It will be recalled that from the 1st of March to the 3rd of March 1971, the Awami League had taken complete control of East Pakistan, paralysing the authority of the federal government. There is reliable evidence to show that during this period the miscreants indulged in large scale massacres and rape against pro-Pakistan elements, in the towns of Dacca, Narayanganj, Chittagong, Chandraghona, Rangamati, Khulna, Dinajpur, Ghafargaoa, Kushtia, Ishurdi, Noakhali, Sylhet, Maulvi Bazaar, Rangpur, Saidpur, Jessore, Barisal, Mymensingh, Rajshahi, Pabna, Sirajgonj, Comilla, Brahman Baria, Bogra, Naugaon, Santahar, and several other smaller places.
> 
> 3. Harrowing tales of these atrocities were narrated by the large number of West Pakistanis and Biharis who were able to escape from these places and reach the safety of West Pakistan. For days on end, all through the troubled month of March 1971, swarms of terrorised non-Bengalis lay at the Army-controlled Dacca airport awaiting their turn to be taken to the safety of West Pakistan. Families of West Pakistani officers and other ranks serving with East Bengal units were subjected to inhuman treatment, and a large number of West Pakistani officers were butchered by the erstwhile Bengali colleagues.
> 
> 4. These atrocities were completely blacked out at the time by the Government of Pakistan for fear of retaliation by the Bengalis living in West Pakistan. The Federal Government did issue a White Paper in this behalf in August 1971, but unfortunately it did not create much impact for the reason that it was highly belated, and adequate publicity was not given to it in the national and international press.
> 
> 5. However, recently, a renowned journalist of high-standing, Mr. Qutubuddin Aziz, has taken pains to marshal the evidence in a publication called "Blood and Tears." The book contains the harrowing tales of inhuman crimes committed on the helpless Biharis, West Pakistanis and patriotic Bengalis living in East Pakistan during that period. According to various estimates mentioned by Mr. Qutubuddin Aziz, between 100,000 and 500,000 persons were slaughtered during this period by the Awami League militants.
> 
> 6. As far as we can judge, Mr Qutubuddin Aziz has made use of authentic personal accounts furnished by the repatriates whose families, have actually suffered at the hands of the Awami League militants. He has also extensively referred to the contemporary accounts of foreign correspondents then stationed in East Pakistan. The plight of the non-Bengali elements still living in Bangladesh and the insistence of that Government on their large-scale repatriation to Pakistan, are factors which appear to confirm the correctness of the allegations made against the Awami League in this behalf.





> Perhaps thats why ICJ (International Court of Jurists) thought that the Bengalis of East Pakistan were_ justified under domestic law, in using force, to resist the attempt by the self-appointed and illegal military regime to impose a different form of constitution upon the country to that approved by the majority of the people in a fair and free election(Conclusion; Para 7)_.



Now are you referring to the International Court of Justice or the International Commission of Jurists, because they are two distinct entities, the latter just an NGO with a few dozen jurists from various nations. That said, their justification for rebel violence against the State is an interesting one, and I would be interested in reading the entire thing if you could start a new thread on it. However, unless the ICJ is justifying the deliberate and coldblooded massacre of tens of thousands of innocent West Pakistanis by East Pakistani rebels, the excerpt you posted is irrelevant to my point of Indians condemning their nation's policies and support for terrorism in 1971.


> Besides, you havent replied to me yet. Why is it that unclassified US documents do not speak of any violence prior to 25/26th March? Why is it that the International media didnt report anything significant prior to 25/26th March, except for the Wireless Colony incident on 4th? Why is it that the White Paper issued by Pakistan couldnt account for more than about 384 deaths, which also included death due to Police firing? More importantly, why was PA withdrawn to the barracks as early as 3rd March, 1971, if the situation was as grave as you want all of us to believe?


The excerpt from the HR commission covers this and explains why - you are just clutching at straws now to try and hide the shame of atrocities committed by Bengalis - I know, quite a hit to your Bengali sense of superiority over 'West' Pakistanis.

There is nothing wrong with recognizing the crimes the Indian State sponsored in 1971, and an condemning them illustrates that Indians are willing to bring a balanced approach to the issues of insurgency, especially with respect to Indian arguments on the Kashmir insurgency. The more you try to find excuses to justify terrorism, the less legitimacy your claims have anywhere else.

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## karan.1970

Three terrorists killed in Kashmir encounter: Rediff.com India News

Three militants and a soldier were killed and another trooper wounded in a daylong encounter in the Sozipora village near Handwara in north Kashmir's [ Images ] Kupwara district. 
A senior police officer said troops of counter insurgency Rashtriya Rifles (RR) and police surrounded a house in the Sozipora village on Tuesday morning, following information about the presence of a group of heavily armed militants inside it.

"As the hiding militants were challenged to surrender they opened fire triggering an encounter at the end of which three militants were killed," the officer said.

"A rifleman of the Rashtriya Rifles was killed and another critically wounded in the encounter." He said arms and ammunition were also recovered from the encounter site. "Security forces are still busy searching the area," he added.

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## karan.1970

lets keep the topic clean without name calling. Its anyway going to get merged with the other thread. So better than abusing these so called humans, lets just enjoy the news of their demise. Though the news has a dark lining of one of our jawans also getting killed..

These days its more and more of RR and J&K police hitting these guys.. With main Army force taking a back seat.. Looks like a good strategy and seems to be working. 

Knock on wood, The ratio of kills seems to be gettting heavily tilted in India's favor..Inshah Allah, the trend will continue and will become stronger


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> Three terrorists killed in Kashmir encounter: Rediff.com India News
> 
> Three militants and a soldier were killed and another trooper wounded in a daylong encounter in the Sozipora village near Handwara in north Kashmir's [ Images ] Kupwara district.
> A senior police officer said troops of counter insurgency Rashtriya Rifles (RR) and police surrounded a house in the Sozipora village on Tuesday morning, following information about the presence of a group of heavily armed militants inside it.
> 
> "As the hiding militants were challenged to surrender they opened fire triggering an encounter at the end of which three militants were killed," the officer said.
> 
> "A rifleman of the Rashtriya Rifles was killed and another critically wounded in the encounter." He said arms and ammunition were also recovered from the encounter site. "Security forces are still busy searching the area," he added.



may the freedom fighters rest in peace.

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## JAI BHAVANI

Areesh said:


> may the freedom fighters rest in peace.



Yes, indeed they are resting in pieces.

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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> may the freedom fighters rest in peace.




and may they have a lot of company of their fellow militants, as they rest in peace

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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> and may they have a lot of company of their fellow militants, as they rest in peace



Don't know about these so called militants but there is a lot of rush on the other side. Looks like they are in pieces.


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## EjazR

*Kashmir reaches out to children of slain militants*

*As a Jammu and Kashmir minister says, children are children, be they of militants or of terror victims. That is why the state is reaching out to the young sons and daughters of slain insurgents with as many as 1,441 having received financial assistance in 2009-2010 alone.*


"Children are children and the aged are infirm and helpless. Why should they suffer for no fault of theirs?" asked state Social Welfare Minister Sakina Itoo.

The rehabilitation council of the social welfare department, which offers help to militancy victims, is providing monthly financial assistance to the children of slain militants and their aged parents as part of a goodwill gesture to knit them into the mainstream, she said.
The rehabilitation council gives Rs.750 per month to such children.

"We are providing such assistance to the children of militancy victims; so why not include the children of killed militants also in the scheme," Itoo told IANS.
While 1,441 children of militants have benefited, over 200 aged parents of slain terrorists were also covered under the scheme.

"We have spent around Rs.13 million on these schemes," the minister said.
"The widows of militants are not included in this scheme, though we are giving assistance to the widows of militancy victims. But I personally feel that the widows of militants should also be given some help for sustenance," Itoo said.
And she sees logic behind her suggestion.

"The majority of girls are forcibly married to militants. So why should they suffer for circumstances for which they were not responsible?"
Shakeela Begum, the widow of a militant, doesn't have enough words to express her gratitude for the financial help she has received for her seven-year-old daughter Hamza Kauser.

"At least I can make her study now and be sure of her secure future," said Begum, who is in her late 20s.

According to rough estimates of the social welfare department, insurgency has left about 10,000 widows, including 2,500 wives of militants, and about 30,000 orphans in the state.

Itoo said the figure could be even more and she was in favour of conducting a fresh survey.

"I feel the number is much higher as we have not got any study or survey done. Now I am planning to get a survey done on this based on the FIRs (first information reports) lodged with the police.

"We want to reach out to the victims of violence and tyranny," Itoo told IANS.
More than 40,000 people have died during the insurgency that started in 1989.
The government has spent Rs.37 million on monthly financial assistance to the widows of militancy victims in 2009-2010.

The minister said besides financial aid, women widowed due to terrorism "can come forward and get loans from the Women Development Corporation for various enterprises for which they can avail themselves of subsidies as well".

Apart from this, Rs.4.8 million has been spent on the Rs.750-800 monthly assistance to kids aged 6-18 years who were disabled in militancy-related violence.
"We would be helping the maximum possible victims of militancy so they do not feel isolated and left out," Itoo said.

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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> lets keep the topic clean without name calling. Its anyway going to get merged with the other thread.



Then why you created a separate thread when there is already a thread which exists on this issue? Frustration or confusion?


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## toxic_pus

We have been over this before, but here goes one more time.


AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> They didn't wake up 'one fine day', but when you start a violent rebel movement, especially one based on racial/ethnic hatred, then the chances of atrocities against the other 'race/ethnicity' increase, especially since the rebels are bound by no law. Even more ludicrous is the implication that the EP rebels were doing nothing but standing on street corners chanting and waving flags, and the GoP decide to launch a military operation against them. Operation Searchlight was launched because the rebels had resorted to violence and atrocities. And we see that is exactly what happened as documented in the HR commission report, which also explains the intial media blackout and its repercussions:
> 
> []
> 
> The excerpt from the HR commission covers this and explains why - you are just clutching at straws now to try and hide the shame of atrocities committed by Bengalis - I know, quite a hit to your Bengali sense of superiority over 'West' Pakistanis.


So now the legitimate grievance of the East Pakistani Bengalis against West Pakistanis' deliberate oppressive dominance, which led to the refusal to share State power with the Bengalis, was based on 'racial/ethnic hatred'? Amazing how you learn new things everyday.

Although you find it ridiculous, for obvious reasons, there was no organised rebellion prior to 25/26th March, 1971 because, the Mukti Bahinis being officially formed in mid April in Kolkata, it just was not possible to do so. There is, however, more than enough evidence to suggest that except for some isolated incidents, notably in Wireless Colony on the 4th March, the Bengalis of East Pakistan were doing very little to make their movement violent. Operation Searchlight was not launched because the rebels had resorted to violence and atrocities. It was launched because Yahya wanted to clean the political stables.

You can start reading the unclassified US documents in this regard. Let me quote a paragraph from one such document dated 13th March, 1971.

_Yahya could decide not to take Rahmans challenge lying down and to retaliate, perhaps to the extent of arresting Rahman and the other leaders, and attempting to clamp a military lid on East Pakistan. There are two basic problems here: (1) *Rahman has embarked on a Gandhian-type non-violent non-cooperation campaign which makes it harder to justify repression*; and (2) the West Pakistanis lack the military capacity to put down a full scale revolt over a long period. [FRUS, Vol XI; pg 19]_​
Some excerpt from ICJ report:

As from March 3, the army were ordered to return to their cantonments and remained there until March 25. [] Whatever the reason for the withdrawal, *it had the effect of keeping down the violence in a period of extreme tension*. [] Some acts of violence did of course occur but, contrary to the contention of the Pakistan Government in their White Paper, *the Awami League leaders were in general successful in maintaining the non-violent character of the resistance*. Indeed, even in the White Paper the only killings alleged to have occurred between 6 and 24 March were:

(a) the killing of a demonstrator by a shopkeeper whose shop was being attacked at Khulna on 6 March; 

(b) the killing of two escaping prisoners by police at Comilla on 12 March, and the killing of 3 people by the army when barricades were formed at Joydevpur on 19 March. (At the time, Bengali police estimated that about 15 civilians were killed by the army in this incident.)

*Not a single person is alleged to have been killed by mobs or by supporters of the Awami League between those dates*. The Awami League leaders were determined to maintain the policy of non-violence. Several incidents bear witness to this. [] We do not suggest that there were no other acts of violence during this period. There is evidence to show that attacks were made on non-Bengalis in Rangpur during the week ending March 13, and at Saidpur on March 24, during which shops and properties were burnt and a number of people killed. *But considering the state of tension which prevailed, the extent of the violence was surprisingly restricted*.​
Kelick 

So much for your canard. Either those blokes in Washington and the Commission were clueless or you are just another victim of State propaganda. I am inclined to believe its the later.

And that thing you are trying to pass off as Hamoodur Rahman Commission Report (HRC report) is actually a supplementary report, which GoP claimed to be based on original HRC report. There is no reason to take this supplementary HRC report as some Gospel truth. In fact using HRC report, supplementary or otherwise, as some evidence is like accepting GoP both as the accused and the jury. 

Nevertheless the questions that I have asked are not covered in that supplementary report. Point me to the specific part of supplementary HRC report, or, just to make it easier for you, to any literature that answers these questions. 

Why is it that unclassified US documents do not speak of any violence prior to 25/26th March? Why is it that the International media didnt report anything significant prior to 25/26th March, except for the Wireless Colony incident on 4th? Why is it that the White Paper issued by Pakistan couldnt account for more than about 384 deaths, which also included death due to Police firing? More importantly, why was PA withdrawn to the barracks as early as 3rd March, 1971, if the situation was as grave as you want all of us to believe?

Finally, the fact that you had to resort to my ethnic identity to make your argument proves that you have run out of arguments.


> Now are you referring to the International Court of Justice or the International Commission of Jurists, because they are two distinct entities, the latter just an NGO with a few dozen jurists from various nations. That said, their justification for rebel violence against the State is an interesting one, and I would be interested in reading the entire thing if you could start a new thread on it. However, unless the ICJ is justifying the deliberate and coldblooded massacre of tens of thousands of innocent West Pakistanis by East Pakistani rebels, the excerpt you posted is irrelevant to my point of Indians condemning their nation's policies and support for terrorism in 1971.


I was referring to International _Commission_ of Jurists. Actually ICJ does take note of violence of Bengalis against non-Bengalis. But they also accept that East Pakistan was in a state of a civil war, post March 25/26.

I have given the link above.


> There is nothing wrong with recognizing the crimes the Indian State sponsored in 1971, and an condemning them illustrates that Indians are willing to bring a balanced approach to the issues of insurgency, especially with respect to Indian arguments on the Kashmir insurgency. The more you try to find excuses to justify terrorism, the less legitimacy your claims have anywhere else.


Indian State sponsored no crime. Indian State, however, sponsored a struggle for freedom from oppression. Any death of innocent is always regrettable, however, this is the right time to recall that Mao_speak_:

_'A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery; it cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another'_

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## giveup

great news ... kill them all.

RIP to the brave soldier ...


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Then why you created a separate thread when there is already a thread which exists on this issue? Frustration or confusion?



If you go thru the last 2 pages of that thread, you will know...


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## Awesome

jagjitnatt said:


> RIP to the soldier. 3 less swines to take care of.


Third times the charm, you very well know these militants are supported by Pakistanis. If they are swines, then IA's 1 million soldiers in Kashmir are what? Kuttay ke bachay?

The fighters each have a job to perform. Supporting your side is not an issue, but don't degrade the other side in such an immature way.

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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> If you go thru the last 2 pages of that thread, you will know...



Yeah I know about that but mods changed the name of your thread so you can post all these clashes there. So no need to create separate threads and jumping on the seats like kids that our "brave" army has killed three more "terrorists".Just post these things in that thread.


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## foxbat

Nagrota (Jammu and Kashmir), May 11 (ANI): Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah on Tuesday admitted that the graph of militancy has risen in the region as compared to the last year.


Speaking on the sidelines of a function of former Defence personnel at Nagrota, around 25 kilometres from Jammu, the CM attributed several reasons for this rise in the militancy while asserting that the security personnel are alert to counter the threats posed by militants.

As compared to last year, the graph of militancy has increased this year, but this is because we are [now] getting intelligence inputs about their presence and we are trying to catch them, said Omar Abdullah.

*Last year, we used to wait for them but now we have planned that we will not wait for their action. Whenever we will get actionable intelligence we will launch our operations, he added.*

Abdullah opined that the acts of stone pelting are against the flag of the country and not the state government. On this score, he said the state government is trying to curb the activity of stone pelting by offering better future to the youth of the state.

Stone pelting is not against the state government this is against the flag of the country. These are those people who want to disturb the atmosphere of the country. Before they were using guns but know they are using different methods, added Omar Abdullah.

A civilian Shafiq Ahmed Sheikh was killed in Srinagar city on April 30, when stone-pelters attacked a bus he was travelling in, while on way to work. (ANI)


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## VrSoLdIeRs

toxic_pus said:


> We have been over this before, but here goes one more time.
> 
> So now the legitimate grievance of the East Pakistani Bengalis against West Pakistanis' deliberate oppressive dominance, which led to the refusal to share State power with the Bengalis, was based on 'racial/ethnic hatred'? Amazing how you learn new things everyday.
> 
> Although you find it ridiculous, for obvious reasons, there was no organised rebellion prior to 25/26th March, 1971 because, the Mukti Bahinis being officially formed in mid April in Kolkata, it just was not possible to do so. There is, however, more than enough evidence to suggest that except for some isolated incidents, notably in Wireless Colony on the 4th March, the Bengalis of East Pakistan were doing very little to make their movement violent. Operation Searchlight was not launched because the rebels had resorted to violence and atrocities. It was launched because Yahya wanted to clean the political stables.
> 
> You can start reading the unclassified US documents in this regard. Let me quote a paragraph from one such document dated 13th March, 1971.
> 
> _Yahya could decide not to take Rahmans challenge lying down and to retaliate, perhaps to the extent of arresting Rahman and the other leaders, and attempting to clamp a military lid on East Pakistan. There are two basic problems here: (1) *Rahman has embarked on a Gandhian-type non-violent non-cooperation campaign which makes it harder to justify repression*; and (2) the West Pakistanis lack the military capacity to put down a full scale revolt over a long period. [FRUS, Vol XI; pg 19]_​
> Some excerpt from ICJ report:
> 
> As from March 3, the army were ordered to return to their cantonments and remained there until March 25. [] Whatever the reason for the withdrawal, *it had the effect of keeping down the violence in a period of extreme tension*. [] Some acts of violence did of course occur but, contrary to the contention of the Pakistan Government in their White Paper, *the Awami League leaders were in general successful in maintaining the non-violent character of the resistance*. Indeed, even in the White Paper the only killings alleged to have occurred between 6 and 24 March were:
> 
> (a) the killing of a demonstrator by a shopkeeper whose shop was being attacked at Khulna on 6 March;
> 
> (b) the killing of two escaping prisoners by police at Comilla on 12 March, and the killing of 3 people by the army when barricades were formed at Joydevpur on 19 March. (At the time, Bengali police estimated that about 15 civilians were killed by the army in this incident.)
> 
> *Not a single person is alleged to have been killed by mobs or by supporters of the Awami League between those dates*. The Awami League leaders were determined to maintain the policy of non-violence. Several incidents bear witness to this. [] We do not suggest that there were no other acts of violence during this period. There is evidence to show that attacks were made on non-Bengalis in Rangpur during the week ending March 13, and at Saidpur on March 24, during which shops and properties were burnt and a number of people killed. *But considering the state of tension which prevailed, the extent of the violence was surprisingly restricted*.​
> Kelick
> 
> So much for your canard. Either those blokes in Washington and the Commission were clueless or you are just another victim of State propaganda. I am inclined to believe its the later.
> 
> And that thing you are trying to pass off as Hamoodur Rahman Commission Report (HRC report) is actually a supplementary report, which GoP claimed to be based on original HRC report. There is no reason to take this supplementary HRC report as some Gospel truth. In fact using HRC report, supplementary or otherwise, as some evidence is like accepting GoP both as the accused and the jury.
> 
> Nevertheless the questions that I have asked are not covered in that supplementary report. Point me to the specific part of supplementary HRC report, or, just to make it easier for you, to any literature that answers these questions.
> 
> Why is it that unclassified US documents do not speak of any violence prior to 25/26th March? Why is it that the International media didnt report anything significant prior to 25/26th March, except for the Wireless Colony incident on 4th? Why is it that the White Paper issued by Pakistan couldnt account for more than about 384 deaths, which also included death due to Police firing? More importantly, why was PA withdrawn to the barracks as early as 3rd March, 1971, if the situation was as grave as you want all of us to believe?
> 
> Finally, the fact that you had to resort to my ethnic identity to make your argument proves that you have run out of arguments.
> 
> I was referring to International _Commission_ of Jurists. Actually ICJ does take note of violence of Bengalis against non-Bengalis. But they also accept that East Pakistan was in a state of a civil war, post March 25/26.
> 
> I have given the link above.
> 
> Indian State sponsored no crime. Indian State, however, sponsored a struggle for freedom from oppression. Any death of innocent is always regrettable, however, this is the right time to recall that Mao_speak_:
> 
> _'A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery; it cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another'_


no pre march violence right?? no organized haterd??? simply innocent unarmed bengalis right??? how come the soldiers were fired at, at dhaka uni during operation searchlight??? 

so operation was of one night and all of a suddent those poor innocent bengalis turn into monsters... aint it strange??? just one night and whole east pakistan starts burning.... where did they get the weapons and the support, to take out not only civilians but army men as well???


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## Aslan

VrSoLdIeRs said:


> no pre march violence right?? no organized haterd??? simply innocent unarmed bengalis right??? how come the soldiers were fired at, at dhaka uni during operation searchlight???
> 
> so operation was of one night and all of a suddent those poor innocent bengalis turn into monsters... aint it strange??? just one night and whole east pakistan starts burning.... where did they get the weapons and the support, to take out not only civilians but army men as well???




There is no need to explain it to them, deep down they know that their country messed up! But the Gandhian philosophy that they hold so dearly is not even implemented in their own country, but that will kill them to believe it. And yet they come here with a smug like face to lecture us about every thing with out even looking with in them selves and at their own country. I would suggest you guys to read the below by "AGNOSTIC MUSLIM" Post # 6

*I hope Indians will also condemn the terrorist acts (atrocities against tens of thousands of civilians in EP) by rebels in East Pakistan and Indian State support for such terrorism to show that they are indeed applying a balanced approach to events.

There have been instances today in which Indian members used reasoning identical to their excuses for supporting terrorism in East Pakistan, to support recent terrorists attacks by the BLA in Baluchistan - the massacres of school teachers, college lecturers and principals. These are acts that the BLA has itself proudly claimed, and has vowed to continue. The BLA has also in essence vowed to commit genocide in Baluchistan, by eliminating all non-Baluch ethnicities in the province, especially Punjabis.

This kind of double game and 'good terrorist vs bad terrorist' distinction by the Indians, in both Baluchistan and East Pakistan, needs to stop.*


http://www.defence.pk/forums/forum-...ance-policy-support-terrorism.html#post849458

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## VrSoLdIeRs

khalidali said:


> There is no need to explain it to them, deep down they know that their country messed up! But the Gandhian philosophy that they hold so dearly is not even implemented in their own country, but that will kill them to believe it. And yet they come here with a smug like face to lecture us about every thing with out even looking with in them selves and at their own country. I would suggest you guys to read the below by "AGNOSTIC MUSLIM" Post # 6
> 
> *I hope Indians will also condemn the terrorist acts (atrocities against tens of thousands of civilians in EP) by rebels in East Pakistan and Indian State support for such terrorism to show that they are indeed applying a balanced approach to events.
> 
> There have been instances today in which Indian members used reasoning identical to their excuses for supporting terrorism in East Pakistan, to support recent terrorists attacks by the BLA in Baluchistan - the massacres of school teachers, college lecturers and principals. These are acts that the BLA has itself proudly claimed, and has vowed to continue. The BLA has also in essence vowed to commit genocide in Baluchistan, by eliminating all non-Baluch ethnicities in the province, especially Punjabis.
> 
> This kind of double game and 'good terrorist vs bad terrorist' distinction by the Indians, in both Baluchistan and East Pakistan, needs to stop.*
> 
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/forum-...ance-policy-support-terrorism.html#post849458


soo true yaar... people werent that innocent, where ever you search you can only find one side of the story... what about the west pakistanis and biharis???

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## dabong1

igoogle said:


> Well more then 70% of Police in Kashmir is Kashmiris . And a majority of them are Muslims.
> 
> Moreover: CRPF hires young men from the same area and trains them as they know the terrain very well, this helps in identifying and killing terrorists faster. (There are about 70 Battalion of CRPF in Kashmir that means around 90000 men) and majority of them Drawn from state of Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> India Army comes to action only if called for. Majority of the work is Done by CRPF(Central reserve Police Force). So now tell me if a terrorist is killing a CRPF jawan. the chances are that he is killing a Kashmiri and most probably a Muslim. So there goes the support for terrorists put of the window.
> 
> Nice strategy deployed by Indian security forces.
> 
> Time for some news: Army undertakes recruitment drive in Kashmir Valley
> 
> *Army undertakes recruitment drive in Kashmir Valley*
> 
> Kupwara (Jammu and Kashmir), May 9: The Indian Army is conducting a recruitment rally in the Kupwara District of Jammu and Kashmir to provide an opportunity to unemployed youth to join.
> 
> The rally is being conducted in phases. Currently, it is being held at the headquarters of 28 Infantry Division in Kupwara.
> 
> "We started the recruitment rally on April 30. The phase one of the rally was conducted in Tangdhar and Vajra Shakti Bridage (It involves exercising an infantry division and an independent mechanized brigade of 11 Corps). They requested us and you know that it is a difficult and remote region of the country. The second phase is being conducted here in Trigram, as you can see. This is the Vajra Division; the rally is being conducted here on their request," said Brigadier K D Malhotra, 28 Infantry Division, Kupwara.
> 
> He also said that several candidates have turned up in spite of bad weather. Passion for joining the army could be seen in every candidate, he added.
> 
> *"Sir, I would love to join the army. I had a brother who was in the army. One day we went to a forest just like that, where he was shot dead in front of me. That day, I took a pledge to join the army. I feel that even if I have to sacrifice my life, I would do that because I have seen so much," said Ghulam Qadir, a candidate.*
> 
> Unemployment is a major problem in the border and militancy prone areas of the Kashmir Valley. Such rallies are seen as a good opportunity for the unemployed young generation of the region.
> 
> Such rallies are held more in the backward and underdeveloped areas of Kashmir like Tangdhar, Gurez, Keran, Machil.



I never asked you about the police force in kashmir......i asked you about the army in kashmir.

"Two Indian soldiers and five separatist guerrillas were killed in a fierce gun battle on Friday in Kashmir, an army spokesman said.

It was the third such clash in the state in a week and comes amid Indian fears of an escalation in rebel violence after a period of relative calm.

Separatist militants fighting Indian rule in Kashmir step up attacks during the summer months as snow melts the region's mountain passes, allowing easier movement of militants from Pakistani territory, Indian security officials say.

"Following a tip off, troops cordoned a forest area in Rafiabad area. The hiding terrorists opened fire and in the ensuing fierce encounter five terrorists and two soldiers were killed," army spokesman Vineet Sood said."
Soldiers clash with Kashmir rebels, 7 killed - Reuters -

From the report above it looks like its the indian army doing the fighting.


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## notsuperstitious

BBC News - Kashmiri is first in India civil service exams

A man from Indian-administered Kashmir has come first in India's civil service examinations, the first Kashmiri to achieve such a distinction.

Newspapers in the capital Srinagar have carried the story of Shah Faisal's achievement across their front pages. 

Tens of thousands of candidates across India participated in the exams of whom only 800 were successful. 

Very few Kashmiris take Indian civil service exams and even fewer succeed in passing them. 

That is principally because of an insurgency that rocked Jammu and Kashmir state for much of the last 20 years. 

'Nothing is impossible'

Shah Faisal says that the low exam turnout has much to do with "the mistrust of ordinary Kashmiris of the Indian mainstream". 



Shah Faisal's family are thrilled with his achievement 
"If my success is an event, it will surely change the mindset of ordinary Kashmiris," he said. 

"It'll remove their apprehensions that they will deliberately be failed. I am sure a message has gone out that if you really come up to the standards set by the union public service commission, nothing is impossible for you." 

Shah Faisal is among those who have been directly affected by the violence in Kashmir. 

His father, a schoolteacher, was killed by (EDIT - Pro Freedom) gunmen eight years ago. 

He says the family was gripped by a sense of insecurity and had to flee their home in Kupwara district to live in Srinagar. 

"Such was the level of fear that I have not visited my home for eight years," says Mr Faisal. 

He says that he did not join any coaching centre to prepare for the exams. But he says he went to Delhi at the invitation of a charitable institution which provided funds to at least 20 Kashmiri candidates. 

Mr Faisal will have to undergo intensive training before being appointed a civil service officer. 

"But I am eagerly awaiting the day when I can serve my community," he says


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The main point relevant to this discussion is the violence perpetrated by EP rebels, specifically atrocities against civilian non-Bengalis in pursuit of a political objective, and the International Commission of Jurists (an NGO) does not, as far as I can tell, condone those killings in any manner, though it makes a broader argument that violence by rebels was justified (an argument for another thread).

Since the point about atrocities by rebels is clear, I'll move on to this bit of Indian double speak:


> Indian State sponsored no crime. Indian State, however, sponsored a struggle for freedom from oppression. Any death of innocent is always regrettable, however, this is the right time to recall that Mao_speak_:


Nor is the Pakistani State sponsoring any crime. The Pakistani State is, however, sponsoring a struggle for freedom from oppression. Any death of innocents is always regrettable, however, this is the right time to recall that Mao _speak_:

_'A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery; it cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another'_






Again, India has no standing to be criticizing Pakistani support for the Kashmiri insurgency, or the atrocities by some insurgents, given its own actions in supporting what it calls 'terrorists' (in J&K) in East Pakistan in 1971.


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## Prometheus

> The Pakistani State is, however, sponsoring a struggle for freedom from oppression.



yes sir ,, we know that.

However on other side..................I think than Pakistan should not say a thing about Balochistan ( only allegations but never provided a Proof by Pakistan Govt.)

on a lighter note..............I still think Pakistan and India can get along and can be a good progressive, peaceloving neighbours ( with or without kashmir solution.

India suceeded in its goal of Bangladesh creation because of political unstability and mistrust between west and East wing Of Pakistan..............and as every hostile nation do.............we did it.

On Kashmir issue, however condition is different..............majority stays in mainstream India..............about minority..............Indian economic is nowhere near collapse that it cannot hold on to its area


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## username

I have a question to Pakistani brothers, 
Answer me logically, 
Please keep aside the legitimacy of the claim of Pakistan and the quarell that whether the intruders are militants or freedom fighters and try to answer this question... 

Your so called "freedom" fighters aka "terrorists" from Indian POV are trying to seize Kashmir from India since decades but with no results...

So what is the point in crossing the border and become a sitting duck... (I hope this is not a bad remark)... 

Shouldn't Pakistan rethink its strategy ? 

And the people who become "freedom fighters" or "terrorists" are not someone who are educated ... is this the way to use uneducated people ? Is this moral ? 

I am damn sure none of the Pakistani members are going to become a so called freedom fighter or even know a so called freedom figher in their circle of educated people... 

What if Pakistan develops and no body is ready to cross the border for these causes... 
this kind of people can be hired only as long as they are economically, socially and educationally backward...


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> We have been over this before, but here goes one more time.
> 
> So now the legitimate grievance of the East Pakistani Bengalis against West Pakistanis' deliberate oppressive dominance, which led to the refusal to share State power with the Bengalis, was based on 'racial/ethnic hatred'? Amazing how you learn new things everyday.


legitimate grievances over resource sharing and a political voice (which BTW was lacking for ALL Pakistanis when under military rule), that were expressed through ethnic/racial hatred, and channeled into racially motivated atrocities against West Pakistani civilians, and subsequently resulted in ethnic violence by both sides. 



> Although you find it ridiculous, for obvious reasons, there was no organised rebellion prior to 25/26th March, 1971 because, the Mukti Bahinis being officially formed in mid April in Kolkata, it just was not possible to do so. There is, however, more than enough evidence to suggest that except for some isolated incidents, notably in Wireless Colony on the 4th March, the Bengalis of East Pakistan were doing very little to make their movement violent. Operation Searchlight was not launched because the rebels had resorted to violence and atrocities. It was launched because Yahya wanted to clean the political stables.
> 
> You can start reading the unclassified US documents in this regard. Let me quote a paragraph from one such document dated 13th March, 1971.
> 
> _Yahya could decide not to take Rahmans challenge lying down and to retaliate, perhaps to the extent of arresting Rahman and the other leaders, and attempting to clamp a military lid on East Pakistan. There are two basic problems here: (1) *Rahman has embarked on a Gandhian-type non-violent non-cooperation campaign which makes it harder to justify repression*; and (2) the West Pakistanis lack the military capacity to put down a full scale revolt over a long period. [FRUS, Vol XI; pg 19]_​
> Some excerpt from ICJ report:
> 
> As from March 3, the army were ordered to return to their cantonments and remained there until March 25. [] Whatever the reason for the withdrawal, *it had the effect of keeping down the violence in a period of extreme tension*. [] Some acts of violence did of course occur but, contrary to the contention of the Pakistan Government in their White Paper, *the Awami League leaders were in general successful in maintaining the non-violent character of the resistance*. Indeed, even in the White Paper the only killings alleged to have occurred between 6 and 24 March were:
> 
> (a) the killing of a demonstrator by a shopkeeper whose shop was being attacked at Khulna on 6 March;
> 
> (b) the killing of two escaping prisoners by police at Comilla on 12 March, and the killing of 3 people by the army when barricades were formed at Joydevpur on 19 March. (At the time, Bengali police estimated that about 15 civilians were killed by the army in this incident.)
> 
> *Not a single person is alleged to have been killed by mobs or by supporters of the Awami League between those dates*. The Awami League leaders were determined to maintain the policy of non-violence. Several incidents bear witness to this. [] We do not suggest that there were no other acts of violence during this period. There is evidence to show that attacks were made on non-Bengalis in Rangpur during the week ending March 13, and at Saidpur on March 24, during which shops and properties were burnt and a number of people killed. *But considering the state of tension which prevailed, the extent of the violence was surprisingly restricted*.​
> Kelick
> 
> So much for your canard. Either those blokes in Washington and the Commission were clueless or you are just another victim of State propaganda. I am inclined to believe its the later.



The excerpts posted from the HR Commission Report answer these questions, and the White Paper referred to by the International Commission of Jurists (not the International Court of Justice) states the following:
*
1 March, 1971*
Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, at a press conference, gave the call for a strike in Dacca. Immediately after his call, Awami .League militants went on the rampage in various parts of the' city, indulging in loot, arson and other acts of vandalism. They raided the Narayanganj Rifle Club and took away arms and ammunition. Armed gangs
were formed at Iqbal Hall and Jagannath Hall of Dacca University to fan out into the cityfor collecting arms, vehicles and funds.

Acts of violence grew in size and intensity during the night of 1 March throughout Dacca and Narayanganj.

*2 March, 1971*
Two firearms shops at Baitul Mukarram and one in New Market were looted and firearms taken to Dacca University campus where a practice firing range had been set up earlier and the noise of firing was heard throughout the day.

On the streets, mobs roamed with guns, iron rods and staves in their hands, raising anti-Pakistan slogans. A number of business houses on Jinnah Avenue and Baitul Mukarram as well as Shalimar Hotel and Gulistan Cinema were attacked. Plying rickshaws were subjected to brickbatting. One jute mill (Ghawasi) in Narayanganj, and two private residential houses in the Farm Gate area of Dacca were set on fire.

Meanwhile violence continued to grow. Civil law enforcing agencies found themselves incapable of coping with the large-scale disturbances which gripped the city, and at their request troops which had so far remained in the barracks, were called out, and curfew was imposed during the night. '

There were large-scale violations of the curfew. Six persons were killed when a mob attacked an army unit at Sadarghat (Dacca) and one person was killed when the Army tried to protect the local TV Station from a violent mob.

*3 March, 1971*
Five persons were killed and 62 wounded in mob violence as lawlessness spread to other areas of Dacca, including Islampur, Patuakhali Bazar and Nawabpur. Several shops and business premises as well as residential houses were set on fire and a number of citizens were burnt to death. On the main Jinnah Avenue, a general store and a watch shop were raided and more weapons were looted from arms shops. Fifty huts were set on fire.

By now mob violence had spread to other parts of the province. In Jessore, mobs armed with sticks and spears attacked the local Telephone Exchange. The guards protecting the Exchange opened fire, killing two and injuring nine persons before the mobs dispersed.

A local train from Bhairab to Laksham was stopped at Comilla in the morning and
attempts were made to set it on fire.
The Telephone Exchange at Daulatganj near Laksham was attacked and
damaged. The Comilla Telephone Exchange was disconnected from the rest of the
Province. The Akaura, Sylhet, Habiganj and Beani Bazar Exchanges were also forced
to close down.

*4 March, 1971*
On the night of 3-4 March, 1971 trouble spread to Chittagong and, Khulna. At Chittagong, violent mobs led by Awami League storm troopers attacked the Wireless Colony and several other localities, committing wanton acts of loot, arson, killing and rape. In one locality (Ferozeshah Colony), 700 houses were set on fire and their inmates including men, women and children were burnt to death: Those who tried to flee, were either killed or seriously wounded. Apart from those burnt alive, whose bodies were found later, over 300 persons were killed or wounded on 3 and 4 March.

At Jessore, a train coming from Khulna was derailed and the passengers were pulled out and killed. At the office of the Jessore Deputy Commissioner, mobs desecrated and burnt the Pakistan Flag, and a hand bomb was thrown.

At Khulna, the Telephone Exchange was attacked and a number of employees were brutally done to death.

In Dacca, cases of looting were reported from Dhanmandi and Nawabpur Road. One firearms shop was raided and arms taken away.

*5 March, 1971*
Cases of stabbing and of burning of houses continued in Chittagong.
In the Khalispur and Daulatpur areas of Khulna, hand bombs, daos (sickles) and spears were used to kill 57 persons. Their dead bodies were later found mutilated. In Khulna town, mobs armed with lathis and shot-guns looted four shops and set fire to a hotel.

Reports from other areas in the interior of the province indicated that widespread violence had erupted and civil administration throughout the province had been paralysed. Telecommunications between East and West Pakistan remained suspended. East Pakistan was also cut off from the outside world as Telephone and Telegraph employees stopped sending and receiving messages on the orders of the Awami
League.

*6 March, 1971*
On the night of 5-6 March, 1971, students of Salimullah Muslim Hall entered the British Council premises in Dacca, spread kerosene oil, and attempted to set it on fire, but troops arrived in time and opened fire.

In a jail-break at the Central Prison in Dacca, 341 prisoners escaped. Police opened fire, killing seven prisoners. One police sergeant and 6 warders were wounded. Later, the escaping prisoners, abetted by militant Awami League and student groups, paraded the streets of Dacca, shouting threatening slogans.

Elements of Awami League and the East Pakistan Students' League started looting science laboratories for procuring acids and chemicals. The Government Science Laboratory Dacca was robbed of all explosive chemicals. The Polytechnic Institute was also attacked for the same purpose but the hooligans dispersed when fired upon.
Similar reports were also received from all major towns of East Pakistan, including Comilla and Jessore where several cases of bomb explosions occurred. In Jessore, 10 rifles and 15 bayonets of Rajendra College University Offices Training Corps were
stolen.

In Chittagong, loot and arson continued. Two houses and a number of huts were gutted. Sniping cases occurred at several places.

In-Rajshahi, the office of the City Magistrate was set on fire.

In Khulna, violent processionists, shouting racial and antistate slogans,
attempted to loot arms shops. The owners opened fire, killing one and injuring seven persons.

*7 March, 1971*
Meanwhile in Dacca, explosives were thrown inside the Radio Pakistan building. From various areas of the town, reports were received of Awami League student groups forcibly taking away jeeps·, ·pick-ups and microbuses.
*
8 March, 1971*
In Dacca, weapons and ammunition were collected forcibly from license holders by Awami League volunteers. Similar reports were received from other towns of East Pakistan.

The Awami League organised meetings and violent processions shouting racial and anti-Pakistan slogans throughout the province.
*
9 March, 1971*
Awami League volunteers and student groups set up "checkposts" in various parts of Dacca "to stop the flight of wealth from BangIa Desh". Under the pretext of "checking ", money and belongings of those searched" by these volunteers were seized in the name of "BangIa Desh ".

In Rangpur, a violent mob in Lalmonirhat stopped and damaged a train, harassing and molesting some of the passengers on racial and political grounds. Awami Leaguers also attacked residents of a number of localities in the town.

In a despatch from its correspondent, Kenneth Clarke, London "Daily Telegraph" (9 March 1971) said: " Reports said that Dacca collapsed into complete lawlessness on Sunday night (7 March, 1971) as Sheikh Mujib took the province to the edge of
secession". The paper added: Terming his movement one of independence the Sheikh,
leader of the Awami League, laid down conditions for cooperating in National Assembly which cannot be met by President Khan. The paper also noted Sheikh Mujib's directive that "liberation committees be formed under Awami League leaders in all villages ".

*12 March, 1971*
On the night of 11-12 March, there was a jail-break in Barisal, and several prisoners escaped. A jail-break was also reported from Bogra, where seven prisoners escaped. In Comilla, 300 prisoners attempted to escape, police opened fire, killing two and injuring
18 prisoners. "Liberation Fronts" and para-military organisations started mushrooming across the province. More and more cyclostyled and hand-written leaflets on behalf of these Liberation Fronts were clandestinely circulated, aimed at inciting racial hatred and violence.

A convoy of five Army trucks, while proceeding to Comilla from Sylhet for drawing rations, was obstructed en route at Brahmanbaria by armed mobs.
*
13 March, 1971*
In Dacca, passengers at the railway station were 'gheraoed ' (surrounded) by Awami League volunteers for" interrogation" on charges of being "dalals' " (pimps) of West Pakistan.

In a Government office near Kakrail (Dacca) two bottles of acid were thrown, causing
fire.
*
15 March, 1971*
In a joint statement, four members· of the "Swadhin BangIa Desh Kendria Chhatra Sangram Parishad (Free Bengal Central Students' Revolutionary Council) admitted that "some armed miscreants using vehicles were still raiding different houses and collecting money forcibly in the name of Sangram Parishad ".

Meanwhile reports kept pouring in from several areas that on racial and political grounds people were being subjected to brutal treatment as part of the "search" operation at various Awami League checkposts in Dacca.

In Comilla, armed mobs 'gheraoed' (surrounded) and attacked an Army field unit at Feni.
*
16 March, 1971*
In Rangpur, chemicals and acids were stolen from Mahraj High School, Natore. In Chittagong, a firearms shop was looted by Awami League volunteers. A report from Dacca in the "Guardian", London (16 March 1971) by correspondent Martin Adeney, described the meeting of one of the Awami League action committees: "They were discussing, like similar action committees set up throughout this province, their next step in what they already regard as independent
East Bengal &#8722; BangIa Desh. Out of 58 villages, they have about three hundred of them formed into an action committee ready to resist the army if need be and already being trained by a villager whose claim to expertise in service was as a lance corporal in the
Royal Indian Army Service Corps.
*
17 March, 1971*
On the night of 16-17 March, two acid bottles were thrown at a Government office in Azimpura, Dacca.

In Jessore, the power house was damaged and power supply interrupted. The Jessore-Khulna road was blocked at various points.

About 300 survivors of the 5 March, killings in Khulna were threatened with fresh attacks.

In Rangpur, students burnt 12 houses in village Lalibari, police station Kaliganj, district Dinajpur.

*18 March, 1971*
In Dacca, the Central Government High School, Motijheel, was raided and acids and chemicals were taken away.

In Jessore, two acid- bottles were thrown at Army personnel in a camp. 

*19 March, 1971*
In Dacca, an Army vehicle returning from Mymensingh was ambushed by a crowd at a level crossing. Six occupants, along with their weapons were taken away by the attackers.

In Joydevpur town, 22 miles from Dacca, curfew was imposed: following exchange fire between the armed mob and Army personnel when barricades were put up by placing a tram on the level crossing in Joydevpur Bazar. The troops tried to push the train aside to make their way but they were fired upon by the crowd. Three soldiers
were seriously wounded. The troops returned the fire, killing two persons and injuring another five. At the Joydevpur roundabout, the troops were again fired upon by a violent crowd. The soldiers returned the fire, killing one person. Half a dozen more barricades
were put up on the Dacca-Mymensingh highway.
*
20-21 March, 1971*
In Jessore, large-scale smuggling of Indian arms was reported from India via Satkhira. Movement of smuggled arms and ammunition from Chittagong to Comilla was also reported.

*24 March, 1971*
Militant student and labour groups began circulating handwritten and cyclostyled posters in various parts of the province inciting people to violence. One of these, issued by the Zilla (District) Committee of Purbo BangIa Sramik Andolan (East Bengal Labour
Movement) read as follows: &#8722;
"The National Liberation Movement of East Bengal is on. Spread this wild fire to every place. Patriotic and revolutionary people, take up arms. Resist and liquidate the enemy troops. Defend the freed areas through armed resistance.

"People, get armed with the available weapons to stop the inroads of the enemy, cut off the roads, bridges, rail links etc. in those areas which are not in their control. Keep ready hand bombs and molotov cocktails in every house. If we have to surrender or we are directly attacked by the enemy, we will have to resort to a bloody war of resistance.

"Please keep in mind that the national liberation of East Bengal is only possible through armed struggle which will be of long duration. Hence, without guerilla war tactics, we shall not be able to resist the enemy. Be ready to protect the freed areas at any price. The long struggle of liberation of East Bengal is not at its, end. It is just the beginning: To weaken us, the enemy may impose economic blockade. The victory of East Bengal is inevitable. We have torn off
the shackles of Pakistani colonialism. Independent East Bengal-Zindabad"

In Rangpur incidents of arson were reported from Golahat, North Saidpur. A violent mob of 8,000 persons armed with lathis and lethal weapons converged on Saidpur to attack the residents there. Fifty homes were set on fire.

*25 March, 1971*
Acid bombs were reported under preparation on a large scale in Engineering College, and Iqbal and Jagannath Hans, Dacca. Barricades and road-blocks appeared allover the city of Dacca.
A report from Paul Martin in the London "Times" of 25 March, 1971, said: 

"In theground of Dacca University, radical groups have started training students in the use of firearms. In many of the villages of East Pakistan brigades of 'volunteers' have been established as the basis of a people's militia whose future task is to 'confront the
Pakistan Army. Already petrol bombs and other hand-made bombs manufactured from chemicals stolen from laboratories in the past few weeks have made their first appearance in the eastern capital, Dacca".

In Saidpur, four violent mobs armed with rifles, shot-guns, and daggers, who had come from neighbouring villages, converged on Saidpur town and attacked Golahat, an adjacent locality, killing three persons and injuring 17. Among the wounded, two had sustained bullet injuries while another seven were hurt from shotgun fire. The remaining persons were injured by lath is and clubs. 50 houses were also burnt. The troops had to open fire and three persons were injured. Later, another violent mob attacked Saidpur Cantonment. They fired at troops with shot-guns. The soldiers had to open fire injuring five persons.

Yet another mob attacked a postal service van on Saidpur &#8722; Dinajpur Road. They dragged out the conductor and the driver. The conductor was beaten to death on the spot while the driver was seriously wounded.

... To that end, arms shops were looted at Dacca, Narayanganj, Khulna and Jessore and stocks piled up in all big towns for the use of mutineers. At Dacca Police Station headquarters alone there was a stock of 15,000 fully loaded rifles. The various outposts of EPR and EBR were connected by wireless transmitters and instructions were quickly passed from one unit to another. The biggest operational
headquarters was located at the East Bengal Regimental Centre in Chittagong.

The operational plan was worked out in meticulous detail: it was arranged that on a signal from the Awami League headquarters in Dacca, the armed uprising would begin. It was arranged that

(a) ERR troops would occupy Dacca and Chittagong, to prevent the landing of Pakistan Army by air or sea;

(b) the remaining EBR troops with the help of EPR, Police and armed Razakars would move to eliminate the Armed Forces· at various cantonments and stations;

(c) EPR would occupy all the key posts of the border and keep it open for aid from outside;

(d) requirements of further arms and ammunition would be met from India; and

(e) Indian troops would come to the assistance of the Awami League rebel force once the latter succeeded in the first phase of occupying key centres and paralysing the Pakistan Army.

Early hours of Friday morning were fixed as the zero hour for the armed uprising.

The Pakistan Army units, largely deployed along the borders with India, set out to suppress the rebellion and drive out the Indian Infiltrators over the next few weeks. During this period, in the areas which came temporarily under the control of the rebels and Indian infiltrators, the Awami League reign of terror, unleashed from 1 March, 1971, onwards claimed the lives of more than a hundred thousand men, women and children., besides incalculable damage to public and private buildings, transport and communications an industrial establishments etc.

The mass killings by the Awami League cadres and EBR / EPR rebels assumed the character of genocide. The victims were those who refused to conform to the designs of the Awami League secessionists. Unmentionable brutalities were committed.
In one area of Santahar, in Bogra district, more than 15,000 persons were surrounded and systematically murdered. Women were paraded naked in the streets and mothers were made to drink the blood of their own children. In Chittagong, over 10,000 persons
were killed including 250 women and children in one small locality who were bayoneted to death. In Serajganj, near Pabna, 350 women and children were locked in a hall which was set on fire, and the inmates were roasted to death. In Mymensingh, an entire
colony of 2,000 families was exterminated in Sankipara area, the men being taken out of their houses and shot, while women were made to dig their graves before themselves being raped and in most cases killed. Some of these atrocities have also been reported
in the foreign press, extracts from which are reproduced below:
_
"The millions of non-Bengali Muslims now trapped in the Eastern Wing have always felt the repercussions of the East-West tensions, and it is now feared that the Bengalis have turned on this vast minority community to take their revenge"._
*
"Statesman", New Delhi, 4 April, 1971.*

"Thousands of helpless Muslim refugees who settled in Bengal at the time of partition are reported to have been massacred by angry Bengalis in East Pakistan during the past week.

"The facts about the massacres were confirmed by Bihari Muslim refugees who crossed the border into India this week, and by a young British technician who crossed the Indo-Pakistan frontier at Hili today".

*"The Times", London, 6 April, 1971.*

"Passengers on a British ship which docked in Calcutta yesterday told of mass executions, burning and looting in the East Pakistan port of Chittagong.

"Leon Lumsden, an American engineer on a U.S. aid project, said that for two weeks before the Army moved last week, Chittagong's predominantly Bengali population had been butchering West Pakistanis in the port.

*"Northern Echo ", Darlington, Durham, 7 April, 1971.*

"When the EPR (East Pakistan Rifles) mutinied, their first reaction was to wipe out the non-Bengalis in their own ranks.

"Some 40 percent of the 10,000 to 15,000 strong EPR consisted of West Pakistanis, including most of the officers.

"One cart-load of bodies was dumped by EPR men one night across the border near the Indian checkpoint town of Haridaspur ".

*"Far Eastern Economic Review", Hong Kong, 24 April, 1971.*

The impression, based on the testimony of hundred of witnesses, is that when it seemed that the Awami League was about to come to power, Bengalis in some communities looted and burned Bihari houses and slaughtered their occupants".

*"New York Times", New York, 10 May, 1971.
(Malcolm Browne).*

"The European manager of a local bank said: It was fortunate for every European living here that the Army arrived when it did; otherwise, I would not have lived to tell the tale.
*"New York Times", New York, 11 May, 1971.
. (Malcolm Browne).*

"There is evidence that non-Bengalis, largely immigrants from India who sought refuge after the 1947 partition, were attacked, hacked to death and burnt in their homes by mobs.

Eye witnesses told stories of 1,500 widows and orphans fleeing to a mosque at Mymensingh, in the north, as armed men identified as secessionists slaughtered their husbands and fathers ".

*"Ceylon Daily News", Colombo, 15 May, 1971.
(Maurice Quaintance).*



> And that thing you are trying to pass off as Hamoodur Rahman Commission Report (HRC report) is actually a supplementary report, which GoP claimed to be based on original HRC report. There is no reason to take this supplementary HRC report as some Gospel truth. In fact using HRC report, supplementary or otherwise, as some evidence is like accepting GoP both as the accused and the jury.


That 'thing' has in fact covered your questions in the first paragraph or so, and the fact that it focuses largely on the actions of the Pakistani officials and military, very critically, lends credence to the report. 



> Finally, the fact that you had to resort to my ethnic identity to make your argument proves that you have run out of arguments.


Sorry, but I have read enough comments of a former Bengali IA Brigadier (used to post on this forum) on other fora, along with the comments of many other so called 'Bengalis', about 'West' Pakistanis, specifically Punjabis, to ignore the racially motivated derogatory comments. I am not suggesting that all Bengalis think this way, but this attitude, of superiority and denigrating Punjabis specifically, is one that I have primarily observed amongst Indian Bengalis.



> I was referring to International _Commission_ of Jurists. Actually ICJ does take note of violence of Bengalis against non-Bengalis. But they also accept that East Pakistan was in a state of a civil war, post March 25/26.



There is enough evidence to suggest that atrocities against non-Bengalis started before the Army action, and even ignoring that, within days of the Army action. 

In any case, as I pointed out in my last post, this is tangential to the point I have been making of Indian double speak, arguing 'support for a freedom movement' in the case of supporting rebels in East Pakistan, while whining about terrorism when the same occurs in disputed J&K.

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## Windjammer

Awesome work detail AM,

One can certainly differentiate men from boys. !!!!


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## psychedelic_renegade

> Sorry, but I have read enough comments of a former Bengali IA Brigadier (used to post on this forum) on other fora, along with the comments of many other so called 'Bengalis', about 'West' Pakistanis, specifically Punjabis, to ignore the racially motivated derogatory comments. I am not suggesting that all Bengalis think this way, but this attitude, of superiority and denigrating Punjabis specifically, is one that I have primarily observed amongst Indian Bengalis.



The hatred has more to do with nationalism than racism, India has it's share of Punjabis to, never found anyone complaining about Bengalis being racist, rather they are widely regarded as tolerant and liberal in nature.


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Since the point about atrocities by rebels is clear, I'll move on to this bit of Indian double speak:
> 
> Nor is the Pakistani State sponsoring any crime. The Pakistani State is, however, sponsoring a struggle for freedom from oppression. Any death of innocents is always regrettable, however, this is the right time to recall that Mao _speak_:
> 
> _'A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery; it cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another'_


Fail.

The _casus belli_ in case of Kashmiri insurgency was not oppression of IA or Indian State.



> Again, India has no standing to be criticizing Pakistani support for the Kashmiri insurgency, or the atrocities by some insurgents, given its own actions in supporting what it calls 'terrorists' (in J&K) in East Pakistan in 1971.


Once again, casus belli...?


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## foxbat

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> legitimate grievances over resource sharing and a political voice (which BTW was lacking for ALL Pakistanis when under military rule), that were expressed through ethnic/racial hatred, and channeled into racially motivated atrocities against West Pakistani civilians, and subsequently resulted in ethnic violence by both sides.
> 
> 
> 
> The excerpts posted from the HR Commission Report answer these questions, and the White Paper referred to by the International Commission of Jurists (not the International Court of Justice) states the following:
> *
> 
> 
> There is enough evidence to suggest that atrocities against non-Bengalis started before the Army action, and even ignoring that, within days of the Army action.
> 
> In any case, as I pointed out in my last post, this is tangential to the point I have been making of Indian double speak, arguing 'support for a freedom movement' in the case of supporting rebels in East Pakistan, while whining about terrorism when the same occurs in disputed J&K.*


*

So why look at the HR commission report when documentary from the ICJ is available which mostly lays the blame at the door of Pakistan 

About your claim of atrocities against non bengalis, the same report lays down the timeline a little differently. 

Some exerpts

March 1 - March 25


The postponement of the Constituent Assembly came as a shattering disillusionment to the Awami League and their supporters throughout East Pakistan. It was seen as a betrayal and as proof of the determination of the army and of the West Pakistan authorities to deny them the fruits of their electoral victory.

Sheikh Mujibur Rahman's reaction was to call a five-day general strike (hartal) throughout East Pakistan. In a statement on 2 March, he said 'In this critical hour it is the sacred duty of each and every Bengali in every walk of life, including government employees, not to cooperate with anti-people forces and instead to do everything in their power to foil the conspiracy against Bangladesh'. The response was complete. Normal life was paralysed. Transport and communications ceased. All factories, offices and shops were closed. Any who attempted to open them were roughly handled by Awami League vigilantes. The streets were filled with marching, chanting, protesting processions.

At first the army tried to assert their authority and this resulted in Dacca, Khulna, Jessore and elsewhere in a number of clashes between them and demonstrators and looters, in which the army opened fire on unarmed civilians. The Pakistan authorities later stated that a total of 172 persons had been killed in this period, but some of them were killed in intercommunal clashes.

thats where the trouble began. Note the role of army

Apart from some serious riots in Chittagong on and after the night of 3 March, and some less severe incidents on the same day at Jessore and Khulna, there was remarkably little communal violence during the hartal. The events at Chittagong on the night of 3/4 March are described as follow in the Pakistan White Paper:

'At Chittagong, violent mobs led by Awami League storm troopers attacked the Wireless Colony and several other localities, committing wanton acts of loot, arson, killing and rape. In one locality (Ferozeshah Colony), 700 houses were set on fire and their inmates including men, women and children were burnt to death. Those who tried to flee, were either killed or seriously wounded. Apart from those burnt alive, whose bodies were found later, over 300 persons were killed or wounded on 3 and 4 March.'1

According to information received from foreign nationals in Chittagong, which is believed to be reliable, the incident began when Bengali demonstrators passed in procession through Bihari areas in order to make the Biharis keep to the hartal. The demonstrators were fired upon by Biharis, and a serious riot followed in which people were killed on both sides and a substantial number of Bihari houses were burnt. The number killed on both sides may have reached 200. It is to be noted that by giving a joint estimate of 300 for killed and wounded, the White Paper does not give any estimate of the number of deaths. The rioting continued sporadically for a number of days until order was restored by the Awami League on orders from Sheikh Mujibur Rahman.
Still a regular riot. The kinds that you witness even today in the subcontinent and more recently in areas like Karachi


As from 7 March, the general strike was replaced by a 'return to normal. under what amounted in fact, though not in name, to a provisional government by the Awami League. The civil service, police. even the judges acknowledged the authority of their' directives'. The new governor, General Tikka Khan was unable at that time to find anyone prepared to swear him into office. Gradually the shops, banks and offices began to open again. Some acts of violence did of course occur but, contrary to the contention of the Pakistan Government in their White Paper3, the Awami League leaders were in general successful in maintaining the non-violent character of the resistance. Indeed, even in the White Paper the only killings alleged to have occurred between 6 and 24 March were:

(a) the killing of a demonstrator by a shopkeeper whose shop was being attacked at Khulna on 6 March; 

(b) the killing of two escaping prisoners by police at Comilla on 12 March, and 

the killing of 3 people by the army when barricades were formed at Joydevpur on 19 March. (At the time, Bengali police estimated that about 15 civilians were killed by the army in this incident.4)

Not a single person is alleged to have been killed by mobs or by supporters of the Awami League between those dates.5

The Awami League leaders were determined to maintain the policy of non-violence


There was, it is true, a non-cooperation movement going on at the time. ...It could be said that the de facto government of the country was then in the hands of Sheikh Mujibur. But to speak of a break-down of law and order is a great exaggeration. There was both law and order. The non-cooperation, apart from the one incident in Dacca mentioned above, was being strictly non-violent.



We do not suggest that there were no other acts of violence during this period. There is evidence to show that attacks were made on non-Bengalis in Rangpur during the week ending March 13, and at Saidpur on March 24, during which shops and properties were burnt and a number of people killed. But considering the state of tension which prevailed, the extent of the violence was surprisingly restricted

Still the situation is pretty much under control considering the extent of resentment against West Pakistan

The 23rd March was 'Pakistan Day', and was provocatively declared in Dacca to be 'Resistance Day'. Sheikh Mujibur Rahman took the salute at an armed march past from his residence, from which the new Bangladesh flag was unfurled. This flag was flown from hundreds of public and private buildings all over the country. Sheikh Mujibur Rahman issued a 'declaration of emancipation'


Here the trouble starts to brew.. West Pakistan's authority being challenged openly and bridge of reconciliation burnt..



It is impossible to reconcile the accounts given by the two sides. Wherever the truth lies, it can be said that the Awami League believed that the election results, coupled with the complete support they had received from the people and all organs of government in East Pakistan since 2 March, entitled them to the degree of autonomy which they had claimed in the Six Points. When that was finally refused to them, they considered that they were entitled to claim the independence of Bangladesh in accordance with the principle of the right of self-determination. The justification for this claim in international law will be considered later.17 To President Yahya Khan and to the other army leaders, the claim to autonomy and the conduct of the Awami League appeared as treason. By 25 March the President had evidently concluded that no negotiated settlement was possible. There was no need to protract the fruitless constitutional negotiations any further. The army's contingency plans were brought into force. It struck, and struck with terrifying brutality.

The White Paper asserts that reports had become available of Awami League plans to launch an armed rebellion in the early hours of 26 March, and puts this forward as the explanation and justification of the army's action

Net Net, the army pre empted an expected rebellion. It may or may not have happened. There is no way for anyone to know

We do not feel able to accept that the army's action was caused by a discovery of an Awami League plan to launch an armed rebellion. Rather, it was caused by President Yahya Khan's decision to break off further negotiations and reassert his authority. 

Pretty damning indictment


The White Paper also asserts that' the action of the Federal Government on 25 March, 1971, was designed to restore law and order, which had broken down completely during the period of the Awami League's 'non-violent, non-cooperation' movement'. As has been seen, the charge that there had been a complete breakdown of law and order is not justified, at least up to 24 March. The break-down in law and order which then occurred was a consequence of the breakdown in talks, of the decision to reassert the authority of the army and of the armed resistance to that decision.


An even worse indictment



So really what this says is that Awami league (which you say was supported by India) was going through the motions of a non violent resistence and non cooperation movement. There were sporadic instances of violence scattered throughout which is expected in a movement this size. However, then came the Pakistani General to assert authority, broke down the talks and ordered the army to have a field day...


We will talk about the field day subsequently.. But till this time, I really dont see any masaccres of West Pakistanis happeneing. Sporadic riots and killings(both ways) , yes.. Genocide.. No


So really dont see any meat in your arguement Agno.. From where I see, its a lot of smokescreen to give some relative credence to Pakistan's current reputation by confusing the issue about India's role in 1971*

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## Windjammer

Let's Flip The Coin Over.


Nearly 2,600 bodies have been discovered in single, unmarked graves and in mass graves throughout mountainous Indian-controlled Kashmir. The International People's Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice (IPTHJ), an Indian Kashmir-based human rights organization, claimed that they found the graves in 55 villages during a three-year survey that concluded in November. Out of the 2,600 graves discovered by IPTHJ, they claim that 177 graves held more than one body. This report is one of the most damning pieces of evidence of the crime against humanity perpetrated by the Indian armed forces in their occupation of the disputed territory of Kashmir.
The Muslim-dominated region of Kashmir has been a disputed territory right from the independence of India and Pakistan in 1947 and has been the source of conflict for more than half a century. While both countries claim the region, it is the civilian population of Kashmir that has paid the price of the conflict. In contested claims, more than 68,000 people have lost their lives in Indian-occupied Kashmir in the past two decades alone and have witnessed three conventional wars.
The latest report, if accurate, only goes to prove the brutalities encountered by the Kashmiris at the hands of the Indian armed forces. The Indian occupation of Kashmir casts a dark shadow over Indias shining image as the largest democracy in the world. Indian democracy prides itself on freedom of speech and expression and the right of its people to dissent. But the manner in which the dissent of the Kashmiri population has been crushed illustrates that India still has a long way to go to be a real functional democracy. Over the past couple of decades, it has been alleged by various human rights groups that the Indian military has killed a large number of Kashmiri youth in "fake encounters", dubbing them "Pakistani terrorists". In April, 2008, Amnesty International appealed to the Indian government to investigate hundreds of unidentified graves  believed to contain victims of unlawful killings, enforced disappearances, torture and other abuses  to no avail.
The starkest feature of these recent findings is that there was no coverage of the report by the Indian media. Having stumbled upon this shocking report in the New York Times when sitting in the U.S., I sought the perspective of the Indian media. To my disbelief and horror, there was not even a single mention about this report in all the leading Indian dailies and news channels, while all of the major international media groups had covered the story.
So what does this tell about Indian democracy? The truth of brutalities in Kashmir have always been kept a secret to the nation. The Indian state has, for decades, been suppressing the largely non-violent dissent of Kashmiri people against the militarization of Kashmir. The Indian state has used the divisive propaganda of militancy and religion as tools to suppress any kind of dissent against its forced occupation of the region. The Indian state has tried to keep not only the international community in the dark about its hostilities toward Kashmiris but also the local Indian population, by controlling media reports of the real situation on the ground in Indian occupied Kashmir.
A democracy which suppresses dissent by means of violence is the most vulgar form of democracy, if at all it can be called democracy. The successful attempt by the Indian state to keep the Indian populace in the dark about such damning reports questions the validity of its claim to be the largest functional, pluralistic democracy.
Kashmir is not the only place where the Indian government has responded with violence in the wake of dissent. The rising tide of the left-wing Indian Maoists group (termed "Naxalites"), predominant in East India, have constantly faced violent retaliations for their dissent against the capitalist regime of the Indian state. The people of neglected regions of northeastern India have been the subject of torture by the Indian military forces for decades for their demand of more autonomy for the region.
Unfortunately, the resort to violence against any kind of dissent is not a new phenomenon for the Indian state, either. The princely states of Junagadh and Hyderabad were annexed by the Indian state by use of force when these states declined to be part of the newly formed independent Indian state.
But India's use of violence to vitiate dissent has long been kept under the wraps of propagandist theories of a functional pluralistic democracy. India has projected itself, not only to the international community, but also to its citizens, as being a soft, liberal state. But events, past and present, prove otherwise.

The Harvard Law Record - India buries dissent in Kashmir

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## foxbat

^^^
Ok..How does this prove the point Agno is trying to prove??

I think the topic was an encounter news which was derailed by a lot of abuses and then an attempt to bring in 1971..

Where are we off to now??

btw shouldnt the discussion on 1971 be moved to an existing BD thread or something...


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## vandemataram

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> FATA, Swat and Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa are not occupied and disputed territory.



The Indians in India, the diaspora and also the People of Indian origin across the globe believe Balochistan is an occupied territory...


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## k_n

> Again, India has no standing to be criticizing Pakistani support for the Kashmiri insurgency, or the atrocities by some insurgents, given its own actions in supporting what it calls 'terrorists' (in J&K) in East Pakistan in 1971.



How long would majority of Pakistanis justify their support to pro-Khalistan insurgents and Kashmir insurgents by highlighting Indian role in Bangladesh Freedom Movement ?

May I begin justifying India's 'meddling in Pakistan's internal affairs' by highlighting what Pakistan was upto when it came to supporting Naga and Mizo rebels and use it as an excuse for COMPULSIVE INDIAN INTERFERENCE in East Pakistan :

here -> Pakistan: Partition and Military Succession


> 1. Answering other questions on alleged Pak assistance to the Mizos and Nagas, Deputy Home Minister Shukla said, "Pakistan has helped and is helping" hostile Nagas and Mizos. A number of camps have been set up in East Pakistan in order to train the hostile in the use of small arms and explosives and in guerrilla tactics. According to Shukla, an armed group of 300 Naga and 200 Mizo hostiles entered Assam from East Pakistan on or about September 3, 1966. INDO-PAK: Parliamentary Discussion of Alleged Pakistani Infiltration into Assam, Jan. 6, 1967
> 
> 2. Laldenga's presence in East Pakistan has been known for some time, but in general there has been no significant increase in the level of Pakistan's support for the Mizo movement. However, if Laldenga does in fact make his way to London with a view to pressing Mizo claims to independence, the Government of India is likely to take a serious view of the matter. The unusual efforts which India has recently made to prevent Naga leader Phizo from reaching the United States testify to the sensitivity with which the GOI regards attempts by tribal representatives to undercut the negotiations which are now going on with both Naga and Mizo leaders. Alleged Pak Help to Mizo Rebels, April 7, 1967
> 
> 3. The Government of India have been constrained, on a number of occasions in the past, to protest, against the shelter and assistance given by the East Pakistan authorities to insurgent elements from India including rebel Nagas and Mizos. ... Pakistani authorities have permitted rebel elements form India to enter East Pakistan freely and even given them arms aid, financial assistance and military training. Training camps and other settlements have been set up for the rebels from India at a number of places in East Pakistan, particularly in the Chittagong Hill Tracts district. At these camps and centres military training including training in sabotage, jungle warfare and night operation is imparted to the rebels. Some of these camps are utilized as bases for launching raids and attacks into Indian territory. Indian Protest that Pakistan is aiding Naga and Mizo rebels, April 7, 1970



Now if I'am to practise your policy of TIT for TAT then these excerpts from US National Archives satisfy my deep rooted need to meddle and cause damage at the first instance or oppurtunity in my neighbour's 'Internal' affairs


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## toxic_pus

Good. So you can copy and paste.


AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> legitimate grievances over resource sharing and a political voice (which BTW was lacking for ALL Pakistanis when under military rule), that were expressed through ethnic/racial hatred, and channeled into racially motivated atrocities against West Pakistani civilians, and subsequently resulted in ethnic violence by both sides.


Nope racial hatred never came into the picture untill the razakars came into the picture. 



> The excerpts posted from the HR Commission Report answer these questions, and the White Paper referred to by the International Commission of Jurists (not the International Court of Justice) states the following:
> 
> ~ snip ~
> 
> Some of these atrocities have also been reported
> in the foreign press, extracts from which are reproduced below:
> _
> "The millions of non-Bengali Muslims now trapped in the Eastern Wing have always felt the repercussions of the East-West tensions, and it is now feared that the Bengalis have turned on this vast minority community to take their revenge"._ (That was the fear after the 4th March, Wireless Colony incident. Nothing of that sort happened till March 25/26)
> *
> "Statesman", New Delhi, 4 April, 1971.*
> 
> "Thousands of helpless Muslim refugees who settled in Bengal at the time of partition are reported to have been massacred by angry Bengalis in East Pakistan during the past week.
> 
> "The facts about the massacres were confirmed by Bihari Muslim refugees who crossed the border into India this week, and by a young British technician who crossed the Indo-Pakistan frontier at Hili today". (Wireless Colony incident on 4th)
> 
> *"The Times", London, 6 April, 1971.*
> 
> "Passengers on a British ship which docked in Calcutta yesterday told of mass executions, burning and looting in the East Pakistan port of Chittagong.
> 
> "Leon Lumsden, an American engineer on a U.S. aid project, said that for two weeks before the Army moved last week, Chittagong's predominantly Bengali population had been butchering West Pakistanis in the port&#8221;. (Yet the White Paper that meticulously lists the deaths forgot to mention how many were killed in the so called massacre)
> 
> *"Northern Echo ", Darlington, Durham, 7 April, 1971.*
> 
> "When the EPR (East Pakistan Rifles) mutinied, their first reaction was to wipe out the non-Bengalis in their own ranks.
> 
> "Some 40 percent of the 10,000 to 15,000 strong EPR consisted of West Pakistanis, including most of the officers.
> 
> "One cart-load of bodies was dumped by EPR men one night across the border near the Indian checkpoint town of Haridaspur ". (After 25/26th March. The following reports are all post 25/26 March))
> 
> 
> *"Far Eastern Economic Review", Hong Kong, 24 April, 1971.*
> 
> &#8220;The impression, based on the testimony of hundred of witnesses, is that when it seemed that the Awami League was about to come to power, Bengalis in some communities looted and burned Bihari houses and slaughtered their occupants".
> 
> *"New York Times", New York, 10 May, 1971.
> (Malcolm Browne).*
> 
> "The European manager of a local bank said: &#8216;It was fortunate for every European living here that the Army arrived when it did; otherwise, I would not have lived to tell the tale&#8221;.
> *"New York Times", New York, 11 May, 1971.
> . (Malcolm Browne).*
> 
> "There is evidence that non-Bengalis, largely immigrants from India who sought refuge after the 1947 partition, were attacked, hacked to death and burnt in their homes by mobs.
> 
> &#8220;Eye witnesses told stories of 1,500 widows and orphans fleeing to a mosque at Mymensingh, in the north, as armed men identified as secessionists slaughtered their husbands and fathers ".
> 
> *"Ceylon Daily News", Colombo, 15 May, 1971.
> (Maurice Quaintance).*


You missed something - how the White Paper mixes up the deaths in a manner so as to give an impression that all deaths were due to violence by the Bengalis. ICJ notes on this:

_Some acts of violence did of course occur but, contrary to the contention of the Pakistan Government in their White Paper, the Awami League leaders were in general successful in maintaining the non-violent character of the resistance. Indeed, even in the White Paper the only killings alleged to have occurred between 6 and 24 March were:

(a) the killing of a demonstrator by a shopkeeper whose shop was being attacked at Khulna on 6 March;

(b) the killing of two escaping prisoners by police at Comilla on 12 March, and the killing of 3 people by the army when barricades were formed at Joydevpur on 19 March. (At the time, Bengali police estimated that about 15 civilians were killed by the army in this incident.)

Not a single person is alleged to have been killed by mobs or by supporters of the Awami League between those dates.​_
I had personally taken a toll count between 1st April and 25 March, based on the White Paper, here. Here it is again, for you.

Below I have put together a small list of death toll from 1 March to 25 March, as claimed by GoP in its White Paper, together with the place of tragedy. If dates are missing it means that no death was reported on that day. Also, (+) indicates separate incident.

1 March, 1971 => *6* killed; Dhaka, Mob attack on Army (+) *1* killed; Army trying to defend a local TV station

3 March, 1971 => *5* killed, 62 wounded; Dhaka (+) *1* killed, 9 injured; Jessore. Guards opened fire on mob to protect Telephone Exchange

4 March, 1971 => *300* killed; Wireless Colony, Chittagong

5 March, 1971 => *57* killed; Khulna

6 March, 1971 => *7* Killed; Dhaka. Police opened fire on escaping prisoners (+) *1* killed, 7 injured; Khulna. Shopkeepers opened fire on looters.

12 March, 1971 => *2* killed, 18 injured. Police opened fire on escaping prisoners.

19 March, 1971 => *2* killed, 5 injured. Troops opened fire.

25 March, 1971 => *3* killed, 17 injured; Saidpur (+) *1* killed, 1 injured; Saidpur.

So from 1st March to 25th March total number of deaths, according to GoP, was *384*. If deaths due to police firing is excluded, then the number of deaths amounts to *367*. Excluding the Chittagong incident, total death amounts to *67*. The death tolls include East Bengalis as well. No rape figures given, although reported only on 4rth.

Here's what ICJ says about the Wireless Colony killings on 4th

_According to information received from foreign nationals in Chittagong, which is believed to be reliable, the incident began when Bengali demonstrators passed in procession through Bihari areas in order to make the Biharis keep to the hartal. The demonstrators were fired upon by Biharis, and a serious riot followed in which people were killed on both sides and a substantial number of Bihari houses were burnt. The number killed on both sides may have reached 200. *It is to be noted that by giving a joint estimate of 300 for killed and wounded, the White Paper does not give any estimate of the number of deaths.* The rioting continued sporadically for a number of days until order was restored by the Awami League on orders from Sheikh Mujibur Rahman.​_
May be you should have read the ICJ report first. 



> That 'thing' has in fact covered your questions in the first paragraph or so, and the fact that it focuses largely on the actions of the Pakistani officials and military, very critically, lends credence to the report.


Can you please copy paste that portion, we know you know how to do that. Also criticizing PA was like telling us all, that sun rises in the east. Reading too much into it would be ridiculous. 



> Sorry, but I have read enough comments of a former Bengali IA Brigadier (used to post on this forum) on other fora, along with the comments of many other so called 'Bengalis', about 'West' Pakistanis, specifically Punjabis, to ignore the racially motivated derogatory comments. I am not suggesting that all Bengalis think this way, but this attitude, of superiority and denigrating Punjabis specifically, is one that I have primarily observed amongst Indian Bengalis.


Who cares what others think. Your desperate attempt to generalize is noted, with much, much amusement.



> There is enough evidence to suggest that atrocities against non-Bengalis started before the Army action, and even ignoring that, within days of the Army action.


Nothing close to what would justify the brutal and selective crackdown of PA on 25th March. The ferocity with which PA came down on innocent people, simply on the basis of suspicion, ensured violent retribution.



> In any case, as I pointed out in my last post, this is tangential to the point I have been making of Indian double speak, arguing 'support for a freedom movement' in the case of supporting rebels in East Pakistan, while whining about terrorism when the same occurs in disputed J&K.


Again, BD rebellion started after and only after the massacre on 25/26th, 1971. For them it was a fight to save their skin. What was the flash point of Kashmir rebellion in 1989? What does 'freedom' encompass in case of Kashmir?

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## Windjammer

foxbat said:


> ^^^
> Ok..How does this prove the point Agno is trying to prove??


He has indeed proved his point decisively, leaves little room to wonder


> I think the topic was an encounter news which was derailed by a lot of abuses and then an attempt to bring in 1971..


The focus was always on the culprit in question.


> Where are we off to now??


We are very much in the killing fields of IOK.


> btw shouldnt the discussion on 1971 be moved to an existing BD thread or something...



Depends which angle of the menace you want to discuss.


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## foxbat

The problem is that Pakistan has continuously failed in its many attempts to do some permanent damage in India thru use of insurgency/terrorism. Whether it was Naga/Mizo episode, Kashmir in 1965, Punjab in 1980s or Kargil in 1998. 

India has gone in only twice 1971 and 1984, both times with spectacular results. 

And I find it interesting that Paksitanis use 1971 to justify their role in Kashmir.. They need to remember that in chronology, 1965 comes before 1971


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## DESERT FIGHTER

vandemataram said:


> The Indians in India, the diaspora and also the People of Indian origin across the globe believe *Balochistan is an occupied territory*...



Im balouch and there are other balouchis on this forum why not ask them?
I think such dellusional morons should get their brain checked..........such kind of mental diseases are on a rise in india.
Or send em to quetta... we will cure there diseases,.
PAKISTAN ZINDABAD

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## foxbat

Windjammer said:


> He has indeed proved his point decisively, leaves little room to wonder
> 
> The focus was always on the culprit in question.
> 
> We are very much in the killing fields of IOK.
> 
> Depends which angle of the menace you want to discuss.



Thats the problem here... A person makes a comment and then rest of the bunch uses those only comments as a proof to conclusively prove the point for which the comments were made.

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## foxbat

Fellow Indians Let at least us not muddy up the waters.. Keep Balochistan etc out of it. 

Leave it for another thread.

Lets talk about brave pro freedom insurgents being freed from their life. 

We can talk about 1971 too, but that seems a little off topic.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Windjammer bro this country and its people are just to blind to understand and too corrupt to accept the reality of indican occupied Kashmir and brutalities of indian occupyin forces.
May GOD be with kashmiris and mujahedeen.Ameen


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## dabong1

username said:


> Your so called "freedom" fighters aka "terrorists" from Indian POV are trying to seize Kashmir from India since decades but with no results...



Well going through the election process bought no result for the people of kashmir so the took up arms......something that history tells again and again is what happens when you start rigging elections and use violence to subjugate the population.



username said:


> So what is the point in crossing the border and become a sitting duck... (I hope this is not a bad remark)...



Well it works both ways......the indian army are also "sitting ducks" for the freedom fighters.



username said:


> Shouldn't Pakistan rethink its strategy ?



Let me guess?......pakistans strategy should except all of indians demands.



username said:


> And the people who become "freedom fighters" or "terrorists" are not someone who are educated ... is this the way to use uneducated people ? Is this moral ?



I think you will find that its across section of people that join the freedom struggle.....educated....semi educated....illiterate. 



username said:


> I am damn sure none of the Pakistani members are going to become a so called freedom fighter or even know a so called freedom figher in their circle of educated people...



And if someone was a freedom fighter or had met themam pretty sure it would not make any difference to your opinions when it comes to kashmir.



username said:


> What if Pakistan develops and no body is ready to cross the border for these causes...
> this kind of people can be hired only as long as they are economically, socially and educationally backward...



I think you will find that most kashmiris can read and wright.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

foxbat said:


> Sir
> 
> Go solve for the brutality of your own citizens who are killing their fellow citizens by dozens every week in bomb blasts. Get your eyes opened first before trying to comment on someone else's blindness
> 
> 
> EDIT: Arent these earlier Mujahids part of the groups that are causing these blasts in Pakistani.. You encouraged these Mujahids in Afghanistan. See the result.
> 
> Now you are wanting to encourage them in Kashmir.. lets see the payment you make to the piper for that..



Lol ur just delusional........
Ur compairing taliban fighting pakistan army to freedom fighting mujahedeen in an occupied territory where uve killed 100 000 people in 63 years and commited crimes against humanity.
U have no chance buddy........I wish the suffering of kashmiri people come and visit you and ur kind so u might better understand wat occupation is.
Thanks.
*Support Mujahedden Freedom fighters.< My nationalism and faith is incomplete without it.
Kashmiris live in the heart of Pakistan.
Can sacrifise my life for my brothers and sisters haunted by occupiers.
May GOD give me a chance Ameen.*

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## Windjammer

foxbat said:


> The problem is that Pakistan has continuously failed in its many attempts to do some permanent damage in India thru use of insurgency/terrorism. Whether it was Naga/Mizo episode, Kashmir in 1965, Punjab in 1980s or Kargil in 1998.
> 
> India has gone in only twice 1971 and 1984, both times with spectacular results.
> 
> And I find it interesting that Paksitanis use 1971 to justify their role in Kashmir.. They need to remember that in chronology, 1965 comes before 1971


Only an Indian would call the 1971 conspiracy a spectacular much to the amusements of many since the very country they claim to liberate often gives them a bloody nose. 

DISTURBED BORDER

For those in oblivion, the outstanding UN resolutions on Kashmir were implemented long before 1965.


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## Windjammer

foxbat said:


> Thats the problem here... A person makes a comment and then rest of the bunch uses those only comments as a proof to conclusively prove the point for which the comments were made.



The problem here is that Indians jump on the bandwagon in an effort to salvage some pride. Rather than digressing in your comments and question session, try and prove your worth by countering those claims.


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## Windjammer

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Windjammer bro this country and its people are just to blind to understand and too corrupt to accept the reality of indican occupied Kashmir and brutalities of indian occupyin forces.
> May GOD be with kashmiris and mujahedeen.Ameen



Yes a nation time locked in what they managed to achieve in 1971.
Little do they realize that a billion of them are being challenged by merely 160 Million. The rude awakening of 2002 is not to their liking to be remembered.


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## Skeptic

To be very honest - It is the victory that differentiates a freedom fighter from Terrorist. *Nothing else.* If they finally succeed - which they will if they have real support (ex - 1971 BD) they will be freedom fighters and when they fail as they have in Baluchistan or Kashmir - The will be terrorist. As simple as that. What are they will be determined by the course taken by the conflict in future.

We can debate as much we want to - historically and internationally - Mukti Bahini is and will be viewed only as Freedom Fighters. Kashmiri Militants are considered terrorist by a majority, and the status will be confirmed as and when the conflict will end in India's favour. In case of Kashmir becoming independent or going to Pakistan - they will be classified as freedom fighters by those supporting their cause.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Skeptic said:


> To be very honest - *It is the victory that differentiates a freedom fighter from Terrorist. Nothing else.* If they finally succeed - which they will if they have real support (ex - 1971 BD) they will be freedom fighters and *when they fail as they have in Baluchistan or Kashmir - The will be terrorist*. As simple as that. What are they will be determined by the course taken by the conflict in future.
> 
> We can debate as much we want to - historically and internationally - *Mukti Bahini is and will be viewed only as Freedom Fighters.* *Kashmiri Militants are considered terrorist by a majority*, and the status will be confirmed as and *when the conflict will end *in India's favour. In case of Kashmir becoming independent or going to Pakistan - they will be classified as freedom fighters by those supporting their cause.


Didnt accept this from u buddy....
Tht way bhagat singh was a terrorist?coz he was hung by brits?
Why involve BLA terrorists?tht have no agenda rather then terrorise other people including balouchis who are in government?
Do u know wat % in balouchistan supports them?
Go u know the statues of Balouchistan?
About mukti bhani......why indians boast of creating them?indian writters write books who they created them?why bengladesh is going for war crime trials against such heroes of yours?
Kashmir is occupied by indians just as the sub contitnent was by brits....
If Bhagat Singh is a hero of sub continent(including Pakistan) so is Yaseen Malik or Mr Gillani.
Thanks


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## Skeptic

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Didnt accept this from u buddy....
> Tht way bhagat singh was a terrorist?coz he was hung by brits?
> Why involve BLA terrorists?tht have no agenda rather then terrorise other people including balouchis who are in government?
> Do u know wat &#37; in balouchistan supports them?
> Go u know the statues of Balouchistan?
> About mukti bhani......why indians boast of creating them?indian writters write books who they created them?why bengladesh is going for war crime trials against such heroes of yours?
> Kashmir is occupied by indians just as the sub contitnent was by brits....
> If Bhagat Singh is a hero of sub continent(including Pakistan) so is Yaseen Malik or Mr Gillani.
> Thanks


Sir, Bhagat singh was a great freedom Fighter, but was recognized and accepted internationally only when the end result was in his favour - Why was the result in his favour - he was fighting for the truth and had support from the masses.

If Kashmiri Militants are fighting for truth and have the support of masses - they will also win and will be cheered as freedom fighters. 

So, my comment is as supportive of your (pakistani) line of thinking as it is of Indian. What I have stated is the reality. We can fight as long as we ant to, but it is the result which will finally decide - as it always had.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Skeptic said:


> Sir, Bhagat singh was a great freedom Fighter, but was recognized and accepted internationally only when the end result was in his favour - Why was the result in his favour - he was fighting for the truth and had support from the masses.
> 
> If Kashmiri Militants are fighting for truth and have the support of masses - they will also win and will be cheered as freedom fighters.
> 
> So, my comment is as supportive of your (pakistani) line of thinking as it is of Indian. What I have stated is the reality. We can fight as long as we ant to, but it is the result which will finally decide - as it always had.



Yes Bhagat Singh was a great hero of ours.
But still it took how many years for the sub contitnent to get freedom?
Probably more then a hundred....am i right?
till tht time freedom fighters were called terrorists by super power of tht time and the world?only the people of the sub continent recegnised him as a hero and some denied tht who were in service to the fuki... occupiers of sub continent?am i right?
Still we were able to get our freedom?
Inshallah same will happen with the people of kashmir...........u call them terrorist coz they fight for wats rightfully thiers......
Peace..............Let them deciee wat they want....dont occupy them with force.......dont go on the way of nehru follow gandhi.


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## username

dabong1 said:


> *Well going through the election process bought no result for the people of kashmir so the took up arms......something that history tells again and again is what happens when you start rigging elections and use violence to subjugate the population*..




This point will derail the thread, so I will not answer this though I will simply state that I disagree with your point... let us agree to disagree and leave at at that regarding the highlighted point of yours... 



dabong1 said:


> Well it works both ways......the indian army are also "sitting ducks" for the freedom fighters...



From the news it does not seem to be so... more terorrists are being killed than the number of Army men being killed (may their souls rest in peace)
and I object the remarks you make about uniformed men who are fighting on the direct order of a democratic government... please refrain from doing so... they are not proxies... they are uniformed men... 



dabong1 said:


> Let me guess?......pakistans strategy should except all of indians demands...



Nope I am refering to pakistans strategy w.r.to india...the armed struggle through proxies has not given any results for decades so why bother to continue... why not drop this armed struggle and engage in dialogue only... ? 



dabong1 said:


> I think you will find that its across section of people that join the freedom struggle.....educated....semi educated....illiterate.
> 
> 
> 
> And if someone was a freedom fighter or had met themam pretty sure it would not make any difference to your opinions when it comes to kashmir
> 
> 
> I think you will find that most kashmiris can read and wright....



See first of all if anybody has got a decent job and decent livelihood he will not bother taking arms... this is true world over... and I am not talking about just "read and write" ... truely developed is what I am talking about... 

and this armed struggle is going nowhere ... for so many decades no gain has been made... so what is the point ? you are fighting against a conventional force with terrorists... and besides what do you think the strength of these terrorists will be 10000 at the max ? and 10000 people with such a big army + CRPF ? it stands no chance at all... 
this has been tried for so long... don't they think about results... ? 
isn't there an alternative plan at all... what kind of people are they ? who are not even able to see this simple evident thing ?


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## ejaz007

*IHK gun battle leaves four dead, says Indian army *

SRINAGAR: An army soldier and three suspected insurgents were killed in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) during a raid on a house where rebels were hiding, the Indian army said on Wednesday.

In the initial firing by rebels, a soldier was killed and another injured, army spokesman Vineet Sood told AFP after the incident occurred late on Tuesday, adding that three rebels died in the retaliatory fire.

Five soldiers and 14 rebels have died in violence in Kashmir over the past week.

Security officials have warned of a possible escalation in violence after the Indian army said last month 400 insurgents were poised to cross into IHK from Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK).

By official count, the insurgency against Indian rule has left more than 47,000 people dead since it erupted in 1989. afp

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## EjazR

*Dr Shabir Choudhry's blog: Challenges, options and role of Kashmiri Diaspora*

Text of speech of Dr Shabir Choudhry in a seminar arranged by United Kashmir Peoples National Party in London on 25 April 2010.

Mr Chairman, friends and colleagues aslamo alaykam

Some previous speakers have said Pakistan is an advocate or wakeel of people of Jammu and Kashmir; and that Pakistan has suffered because of the support rendered to the people of Kashmir. They further said Pakistan has done many favours to people of Kashmir; and have kept the Kashmir dispute alive.

That is one way of looking at things, but there is, of course, an alternative view. I want to present that alternative view that people could understand facts about Pakistans support for Kashmir; and favour Pakistan has done to people of Jammu and Kashmir.

Advocate or wakeel is always appointed or dismissed by a client. People of Jammu and Kashmir did not appoint Pakistan as their advocate, wakeel or representative. Pakistan is self appointed advocate and we have no faith in Pakistans sincerity or skills to promote our cause or protect our interests.

Furthermore, when the Kashmir dispute was taken to the UN Security Council by India it was registered there as the Kashmir Problem. It clearly indicated that the issue related to a separate territory other than India or Pakistan; and to the people of Jammu and Kashmir. First favour the government of Pakistan did to the people of Jammu and Kashmir was to change that to India and Pakistan problem.

What this showed was that the problem was related to India and Pakistan and not to the people of Jammu and Kashmir. It also showed that Jammu and Kashmir was not a separate territory and people of that territory did not have separate identity and separate existence. It further showed that the dispute was a territorial one; and was not related to nation, its identity and future aspirations.

Let me now explain the second favour the government of Pakistan did to the people of Jammu and Kashmir. The UNCIP Resolution of 13 August 1948 stated that the future status of the State of Jammu and Kashmir shall be determined in accordance with the will of the people and to that end, upon acceptance of the Truce Agreement both Governments agree to enter into consultations with the Commission to determine fair and equitable conditions whereby such free expression will be assured.

*The phrase future status could mean an accession to Pakistan, an accession to India or an independent Jammu and Kashmir; and when this was confirmed by the UN, it was the government of Pakistan which requested the UN Security Council to change this phrase and replace it with the following: The question of the accession of the State of Jammu and Kashmir to India or Pakistan will be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite.*

*So it was Pakistan and not India, which limited Kashmiri peoples right of self determination to right of accession.*

This self appointed advocate or wakeel thinks we people of Jammu and Kashmir do not deserve to be an independent nation. They think we do not deserve to use right of self determination. They think we do not deserve to benefit from fruits of independence and democracy. It was because of this thinking they did us another favour, and limited our right of self determination to right of accession. However they have kindly allowed us - people of Jammu and Kashmir to choose our masters in the form of either acceding to India or Pakistan.

We, people of Jammu and Kashmir, are urged to join Pakistan  a country which has no system of accountability, no transparency, no democracy, no political stability, no rule of law, no concept of civil liberties, no economic stability, no electricity, no gas, no place for merit or honesty and which is at war with itself. A country which is in chaos, where terrorists are calling shots, where communal rivalry and violence is promoted, where government has no control in some parts of the country; and where some parts want to break away from the federation and future looks bleak.

People say there is no comparison between two sides of Kashmir because India has more than half million troops there. *I agree there is no comparison. It is true there are more than half million troops. It is also true human rights abuse take place there, but despite 21 years of militancy, destruction and instability that area is far ahead of Pakistani Administered Kashmir.*

*They have what we cannot even dream of on this side of the LOC. They have medical colleges, technical colleges, engineering colleges, free education, high literacy rate, freedom of speech, freedom of travel, freedom to protest etc. They have human rights abuses but they have a system of recording those abuses and highlighting them.*

*Dont be under any illusion, human rights abuse also takes place on this side of the LOC, but we have no system of recording that; in fact, no one dares to speak against that because of the repercussions. Leaders on that side of the LOC shout against India and yet they travel to all parts of Jammu and Kashmir, visit Pakistani High Commission in New Delhi and eat chicken tikkas.*

*Whereas on this side of the LOC, Azad Kashmiri Prime Minister and President cannot even travel to Gilgit Baltistan, and area part of the State. Azad Kashmiri leaders and political activists cannot even think of going to the Indian High Commission in Islamabad. They are not even allowed to have peaceful demonstrations and prime examples are the demonstrations of Mirpur and Rawalakot, where people demonstrated against electric load shedding and problems associated with that.*

More electricity is produced in Mirpur and other parts of Azad Kashmir than our requirement, and that electricity is used in Pakistan and we dont get enough to meet our needs. People of Mirpur and Rawalakot were demanding electricity and an end to more than 14 hours a day load shedding. They were peaceful and they had no guns, and yet they were mercilessly beaten up and guns were used against them injuring scores of innocent people.

Just imagine if these people were trained by India, guns were provided by them and these guns were used against Pakistani army in Azad Kashmir, then you would know what human rights abuse is. *Everyone knows it was Pakistan who trained militants, gave them guns, and asked them to use them against the Indian army. India reacted and committed human rights abuses, and now they have more than half million army there. No one can defend that. But ask yourself if they had half million army there before the start of the militancy. Answer is no. So those who started militancy, trained men, sent guns and bombs provided a reason for India to station this large army there.*

Many more examples could be given to explain the situation regarding two parts of Kashmir, but due to time I cannot go in to details. But I have to tell you some more facts, bitter as they are. Those leaders and parties who preach you to liberate the Valley of Kashmir or Indian side of Jammu and Kashmir first are not sincere with the cause of Kashmir.

In disguise these people are promoting someone elses agenda. Their aim is not to liberate Kashmir, but to promote interests of those who want to keep India engaged in Jammu and Kashmir. They want to give this impression that problem is only on the Indian side of the divide, and on the Pakistani side of the divide everything is rosy. That is not true. This part is also occupied, but people are hoodwinked in name of religion and brotherhood. We should learn how Pakistan has practically annexed our motherland - area of Gilgit Baltistan.

On this side of the LOC, we are occupied by Pakistan. Our resources are exploited by them. Our struggle is on this side of the divide. My struggle starts from Bhimber. It starts from Mirpur and Kotli and other parts of Pakistani Administered Kashmir. People of the Indian side of Kashmir are struggling for independence on that side of the divide and they are making big sacrifices. I feel their suffering. I admire their spirit and sacrifices. I fully support that struggle; and want to help and advance the cause of united and independent Jammu and Kashmir.

My words might appear harsh, and some might call this anti Pakistan. *I am not anti Pakistan; in fact no Kashmiri is anti Pakistan. Examples I have given regarding Pakistani role are historical facts. I am not here to promote a Pakistani interest. My mission is to promote a Kashmiri interest* and explain to people who have done what against us to harm us, and to enslave us. In discharging this duty if another countrys strategic or other interest are damaged it DOES NOT worry me. It DOES NOT worry me if people dislike or oppose me for promoting a Kashmiri interest.

In conclusion, we people are faced with challenges of extremism, violence and hatred. We are challenged by anti democratic anti liberal forces. We people of Jammu and Kashmir do not have many choices. We have only two choices: accept this intimidation and occupation and become collaborators, or stand up and oppose them. Come what may, we have decided to stand up and fight them back. END

*Writer is Director Diplomatic Committee of Kashmir National Party, political analyst and author of many books and booklets. Also he is Director Institute of Kashmir *


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## foxbat

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Lol ur just delusional........
> Ur compairing taliban fighting pakistan army to freedom fighting mujahedeen in an occupied territory where uve killed 100 000 people in 63 years and commited crimes against humanity.
> U have no chance buddy........I wish the suffering of kashmiri people come and visit you and ur kind so u might better understand wat occupation is.
> Thanks.
> *Support Mujahedden Freedom fighters.< My nationalism and faith is incomplete without it.
> Kashmiris live in the heart of Pakistan.
> Can sacrifise my life for my brothers and sisters haunted by occupiers.
> May GOD give me a chance Ameen.*



No.. I am not comparing them at all ... I am simply showing what happened when you gave the same support to Afghanistani Mujahids fighting for freedom. That policy is today causing explosions all over Pakistan and killing your citizens without prejudice. I am afraid, but the same or worse will be the result of your policies in Kashmir


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## foxbat

Windjammer said:


> Only an Indian would call the 1971 conspiracy a spectacular much to the amusements of many since the very country they claim to liberate often gives them a bloody nose.
> 
> DISTURBED BORDER
> 
> For those in oblivion, the outstanding UN resolutions on Kashmir were implemented long before 1965.



Yes.. Obviously a Pakistani whose country got split in two will not call 1971 as spectacular.

So make up your mind.. What is the cause of Pakistan promoting terrorism in Kashmir.. UNSC resolution of 1948 or 1971?


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## KS

Windjammer said:


> Let's Flip The Coin Over.
> 
> 
> *Nearly 2,600 bodies have been discovered in single, unmarked graves and in mass graves throughout mountainous Indian-controlled Kashmir. The International People's Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice (IPTHJ), an Indian Kashmir-based human rights organization, claimed that they found the graves in 55 villages during a three-year survey that concluded in November. Out of the 2,600 graves discovered by IPTHJ, they claim that 177 graves held more than one body. *This report is one of the most damning pieces of evidence of the &#8216;crime against humanity&#8217; perpetrated by the Indian armed forces in their occupation of the disputed territory of Kashmir.
> The Muslim-dominated region of Kashmir has been a disputed territory right from the independence of India and Pakistan in 1947 and has been the source of conflict for more than half a century. While both countries claim the region, it is the civilian population of Kashmir that has paid the price of the conflict. In contested claims, more than 68,000 people have lost their lives in Indian-occupied Kashmir in the past two decades alone and have witnessed three conventional wars.
> The latest report, if accurate, only goes to prove the brutalities encountered by the Kashmiris at the hands of the Indian armed forces. The Indian occupation of Kashmir casts a dark shadow over India&#8217;s shining image as the largest democracy in the world. Indian democracy prides itself on freedom of speech and expression and the right of its people to dissent. But the manner in which the dissent of the Kashmiri population has been crushed illustrates that India still has a long way to go to be a real functional democracy. Over the past couple of decades, it has been alleged by various human rights groups that the Indian military has killed a large number of Kashmiri youth in "fake encounters", dubbing them "Pakistani terrorists". In April, 2008, Amnesty International appealed to the Indian government to investigate hundreds of unidentified graves &#8212; believed to contain victims of unlawful killings, enforced disappearances, torture and other abuses &#8212; to no avail.
> The starkest feature of these recent findings is that there was no coverage of the report by the Indian media. Having stumbled upon this shocking report in the New York Times when sitting in the U.S., I sought the perspective of the Indian media. To my disbelief and horror, there was not even a single mention about this report in all the leading Indian dailies and news channels, while all of the major international media groups had covered the story.
> So what does this tell about Indian democracy? The truth of brutalities in Kashmir have always been kept a secret to the nation. The Indian state has, for decades, been suppressing the largely non-violent dissent of Kashmiri people against the militarization of Kashmir. The Indian state has used the divisive propaganda of militancy and religion as tools to suppress any kind of dissent against its forced occupation of the region. The Indian state has tried to keep not only the international community in the dark about its hostilities toward Kashmiris but also the local Indian population, by controlling media reports of the real situation on the ground in Indian occupied Kashmir.
> A democracy which suppresses dissent by means of violence is the most vulgar form of democracy, if at all it can be called &#8216;democracy&#8217;. The successful attempt by the Indian state to keep the Indian populace in the dark about such damning reports questions the validity of its claim to be the largest functional, pluralistic democracy.
> Kashmir is not the only place where the Indian government has responded with violence in the wake of dissent. The rising tide of the left-wing Indian Maoists group (termed "Naxalites"), predominant in East India, have constantly faced violent retaliations for their dissent against the capitalist regime of the Indian state. The people of neglected regions of northeastern India have been the subject of torture by the Indian military forces for decades for their demand of more autonomy for the region.
> Unfortunately, the resort to violence against any kind of dissent is not a new phenomenon for the Indian state, either. The princely states of Junagadh and Hyderabad were annexed by the Indian state by use of force when these states declined to be part of the newly formed independent Indian state.
> But India's use of violence to vitiate dissent has long been kept under the wraps of propagandist theories of a functional pluralistic democracy. India has projected itself, not only to the international community, but also to its citizens, as being a soft, liberal state. But events, past and present, prove otherwise.
> 
> The Harvard Law Record - India buries dissent in Kashmir




Buddy thanx..actually all these days i was thinking where were the bodies of thousands of *Hindu Pandits* who were systematically massacred by the terrorists aftre which millions fled the valley..
Has that idiotic IPTHJ proved that the bodies were of Muslims killed by the Indian Army..? *-NO-*
So we think that they r the bodies of *Hindu Pandits* killed by Terrrorits.Death to those terrorists for killing innocent Hindus.


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## Windjammer

foxbat said:


> Yes.. Obviously a Pakistani whose country got split in two will not call 1971 as spectacular.


The Indians with some reality check called it, "the second liberation of India". Ever wondered why. 


> So make up your mind.. What is the cause of Pakistan promoting terrorism in Kashmir.. UNSC resolution of 1948 or 1971?


Let me spoon feed you, standing by an oppressed nation against an habitual offender on moral ground is different to what India has indulged in the past and is presently involved in by supporting the terrorist activities against the State of Pakistan.


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## Awesome

Pakistan needs to create consensus on Kashmir: Mirwaiz- Hindustan Times

In what may be indicative of a new approach of Kashmiri separatists toward Pakistan, All Parties Hurriyat Conference chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq on Wednesday asked Pakistan to create a consensus on Kashmir before offering any solution on the over six decade old issue between India and Pakistan.

Mirwaiz, who was a relentless cheerleader of former Pakistani president Pervez Musharrafs four-point formula; irrelevant borders, demilitarization from both sides of Line of Control, self-governance and joint mechanism, wanted the current Pakistani government to work out a consensus on Kashmir issue before putting forward any solution.

Pakistan needs to create a consensus on Kashmir within. The current government should take everyone on board there before offering any solution, Mirwaiz told Hindustan Times in an exclusive interview on phone on Wednesday, a day after Indian and Pakistani foreign ministers spoke on phone and decided to meet in Islamabad on July 15.

This is a shift in the stand of the separatist leader who has been talking to both India and Pakistan since 2004, and who during the Musharraf era was recognized as the head of the Hurriyat Conference, shunning hardcore Syed Ali Shah Geelani.

Other day I heard that Pakistani Foreign minister saying that Pakistan will go back to its original policy on Kashmir (read right to self determination under the UN resolutions on Kashmir), Musharraf had proposed an out of box solution (four-point formula), but others were not on board, so it did not move anywhere.

After Musharaf proposed his Kashmir solution, I met with Benazir Bhutto in Dubai and Mian Mohammad Nawaz Sharief in Jeddah, and both of them told me that they were not against any out of box solution on Kashmir,but Musharraf had not taken them into confidence.

Mirwaiz has made this doclosure for the first time.
Musharraf should have taken them into confidence, the Mirwaiz said. Now, I believe same applies to the current Pakistani government there.

We will convey this point to Pakistan in a foreceful manner, as we would soon plan a visit to Pakistan. There is a standing invitation to us, the separatist leader said.

Appreciating the resumption of talks between India and Pakistan, Mirwaiz, however said that this should not be repeat of the old story of talks taking off, then getting grounded. Unless there is a sustained dialogue, results would not be visible.

Mirwaiz said that India should stop using the approach of rushing to separatists whenever there is a crisis and taking a U-turn when the crisis subsides. Leave aside Kashmir resolution, India is not even serious on confidence building measures.

He also chastised Chief Minister Omar Abdullah for charging separatists with playing with bloodshed .

Omar Abdullah should know that a conflict is on in Kashmir, and 100,000 people have been killed. There is a conflict going on for the past two decades, perhaps, he was not here during that time, thats why he doesnt know that all cannot talk about development. They are children of conflict who want to bring Kashmir issue in focus.


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## dabong1

username said:


> This point will derail the thread, so I will not answer this though I will simply state that I disagree with your point... let us agree to disagree and leave at at that regarding the highlighted point of yours...



What part do you disagree with? 

A leader of the Congress Party at the time, Khem Lata Wukhloo, recalls: "I remember that there was a massive rigging in 1987 elections. The losing candidates were declared winners. It shook the ordinary people's faith in the elections and the democratic process."
Many believe that these elections were a turning point in the history of Kashmir. 
Key figures in militant groups fighting against Indian rule - took part in the 1987 polls. 
BBC NEWS | South Asia | Kashmir's flawed elections





username said:


> From the news it does not seem to be so... more terorrists are being killed than the number of Army men being killed (may their souls rest in peace)



The armed wing of the freedom struggle has been switched on again and after a bit of time you will see the figures increase for indian army deaths......give it a bit of time.



username said:


> and I object the remarks you make about uniformed men who are fighting on the direct order of a democratic government... please refrain from doing so... they are not proxies... they are uniformed men...



Which remark have i made to you about the indian army that you took offence to? 





username said:


> Nope I am refering to pakistans strategy w.r.to india...the armed struggle through proxies has not given any results for decades so why bother to continue



Well the same can be said to the indians.....after spending all that money and taking indian army deaths why continue in the same manner......what results have you got? the kashmiris still dont want to be part of india.



username said:


> why not drop this armed struggle and engage in dialogue only... ?



I agree......tell the indian army to stop there armed attacks on the kashmiris and engage in dialogue.




username said:


> See first of all if anybody has got a decent job and decent livelihood he will not bother taking arms... this is true world over... and I am not talking about just "read and write" ... truely developed is what I am talking about...



So if doctors,engineers,teachers ect take up arms whic they have done in kashmir what is the excuse then?




username said:


> and this armed struggle is going nowhere ... for so many decades no gain has been made... so what is the point ? you are fighting against a conventional force with terrorists... and besides what do you think the strength of these terrorists will be 10000 at the max ? and 10000 people with such a big army + CRPF ? it stands no chance at all...
> this has been tried for so long... don't they think about results... ?
> isn't there an alternative plan at all... what kind of people are they ? who are not even able to see this simple evident thing ?



Again i agree.....the indian occupation of kashmir is going nowhere after decades,you guys need to give the kashmiris there right of self determination........after all if the kashmiris love india so much you guys will the vote and thats the end of the problem........what are you guys scared off?


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## username

dabong1 said:


> What part do you disagree with?
> 
> A leader of the Congress Party at the time, Khem Lata Wukhloo, recalls: "I remember that there was a massive rigging in 1987 elections. The losing candidates were declared winners. It shook the ordinary people's faith in the elections and the democratic process."
> Many believe that these elections were a turning point in the history of Kashmir.
> Key figures in militant groups fighting against Indian rule - took part in the 1987 polls.
> BBC NEWS | South Asia | Kashmir's flawed elections


hmmm... I have already told you that I disagree with your viewpoints ... and will not continue debating on legitimacy of Kashmir being with India or with Pakistan or as a seperate country... no point in discussing that... don't you think so... no thread went into these lines ever came to a conclusion... only mud slinging will ensue and some people will get banned... so let us not discuss the legitimacy of Kashmir being with India or with Pakistan or as a seperate country... *and I discourage anybody to say that the reporter of the report you mentioned (Altaf Hussain) was a pakistani politician... and your own country and sentenced him for 27 years in army major kidnapping case by special terrorist court.... * this will become a waste of time if we go down that path... and let us stick to the feasibility and morality of you supporting your so called freedom fighters... 



dabong1 said:


> The armed wing of the freedom struggle has been switched on again and after a bit of time you will see the figures increase for indian army deaths......give it a bit of time.


What is this switched on again after a bit of time... so till then you will simply send your own country men on a suicide mission ? 

I find this reasoning to be insane... don't you think so ? 



dabong1 said:


> Well the same can be said to the indians.....after spending all that money and taking indian army deaths why continue in the same manner......


Whenever a countries integral part is attacked it will send its army or CRPF or BSF (it's equivalent in other other countries), that is what the army is for... 

Think about your so called freedom fighters ? what happens to their family after they die ? will they be given any decoration by your government (which it is obliged to do for exceptionary service if any at all).. or will your government give them a pension ... or will your government give them quotas or reservations for any of their family members in their educational institutes... no NONE... isn't this morally bankrupt ? nobody cares about them ... they are simply like used bullets ... aren't they ? 

If you disagree with the above points give links where in your government has considered the dead terrorist if at all he has served well according to your countries standard given any award... or that dead terrorist's family treated as same as that of a martyred uniformed men... 




dabong1 said:


> what results have you got?


hmm... don't you know the results ? Kashmir for most part is with India and will be with India... 



dabong1 said:


> the kashmiris still dont want to be part of india.


See dude, let us not talk about reasons/who wants to be with who... we have seen enough of reasons from both sides and none of the threads really had a conclusion about whether Kashmiris wanted to be with India or with Pakistan or seperately... No body was able to convince other person... so I am telling you again... let us leave this in this thread... and only discuss about the feasibility of your infiltration giving any results... 



dabong1 said:


> I agree......tell the indian army to stop there armed attacks on the kashmiris and engage in dialogue.



Whenever a countries integral part is attacked it will send its army or CRPF or BSF (it's equivalent in other other countries), that is what their duty is ... they are doing their duty and if any hardships there are well placed framework to address them ... 




dabong1 said:


> So if doctors,engineers,teachers ect take up arms whic they have done in kashmir what is the excuse then?



really ? doctors, engineers, teachers (don't count religious teachers of any religion) have taken arms and are crossing border for doing terrorism ? come on... how many of them do so... and if at all, give some links atleast please... 
*
and this time I encourage you to give a credible link ... not a report written by a defamed Pakistani politician... or a person sentenced of terrorism.... a credible link is welcome... *




dabong1 said:


> Again i agree.....the indian occupation of kashmir is going nowhere after decades,you guys need to give the kashmiris there right of self determination........after all if the kashmiris love india so much you guys will the vote and thats the end of the problem........what are you guys scared off?



again, let us not talk about reasons/who wants to be with who... we have seen enough of reasons from both sides and none of the threads really had a conclusion about whether Kashmiris wanted to be with India or with Pakistan or seperately... No body was able to convince other person... so I am telling you again... let us leave this in this thread... and only discuss about the feasibility of your infiltration giving any results...


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## SEAL

Terrorism of Indian army exposed by PBS.
A documentary film worth watching 


http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/57668-pbs-documentary-kashmir.html


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## EjazR

*Rising Kashmir - China offered guns, Sheikh chose peace: Omar*

*Abid Bashir*
Srinagar, May 13: In a significant revelation, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah Thursday said soon after India&#8217;s partition Sheikh Abdullah, then most popular leader, had declined Chinese offer to supply arms for espousing the cause of independence. 

Addressing a one-day Maha Gram Sabha Convention at TRC ground, Omar said he wanted youth to hold pens and job orders in their hands not guns and stones. &#8220;One of the top Chinese leaders offered guns to Sheikh Sahib and told him to use gun in Kashmir. But he rejected the offer saying he can&#8217;t give gun to his son Farooq Abdullah and neither to any other Kashmiri. I am his grandson and I will never allow gun culture to flourish again in Kashmir.&#8221; Omar further said Sheikh preferred exile rather than holding guns in the hands of Kashmiris. 
Launching a scathing attack on separatist leaders, Omar said, there are some political parties who don&#8217;t want resolution of Kashmir issue. &#8220;If they would work for the solution of Kashmir issue, their identity will be lost forever. These people play politics on the blood of innocent youth and make them hold stones in their hands. We believe in politics of development and peace,&#8221; he said.
Terming 1960 Indus-Water treaty (IWT) as &#8216;injustice&#8217; with people of State, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah Wednesday said had National Conference patriarch Sheikh Muhammad Abdullah not been in prison, the accord would not have taken place.
He accused separatist leaders of playing politics over the blood of youth by holding stones in their hands.
India and Pakistan committed a big mistake by dividing the rivers of Jammu and Kashmir. &#8220;Three rivers of State flow into Pakistan. According to IWT we can&#8217;t use water of our own rivers, which is grave injustice with us. The IWT is a complete injustice with people of the State,&#8221; he said.
&#8220;NC founder Sheikh Muhammad Abdullah was in jail when IWT was signed by India and Pakistan. Had he not been in prison, I believe the accord would not have taken place,&#8221; the chief minister said.
He said whenever he visits New Delhi, he raises the issue with Government of India. &#8220;I seek compensation for the losses incurred by the State due to IWT,&#8221; he said.
Referring to PDP, Omar said when the party raised IWT issue in the State Legislative Assembly and tried to blame NC founder for it, Mufti Sayeed told her daughter to remain silent. &#8220;He told her that Sheikh Abdullah was in jail at the time of signing of treaty,&#8221; he said.
Taking a dig at PDP, he said the party has developed a habit of taking undue credit for things they never do. &#8220;These people fly to Delhi to see what is happening and on their return claim credit for everything. The party even claimed credit for resumption of India-Pakistan talks,&#8221; he said.
The chief minister said he doesn&#8217;t believe in drum beating. &#8220;PDP has this habit and let them continue with it,&#8221; he said.
The Union Minister for New and Renewable Energy Farooq Abdullah in a veiled reference to PDP said IWT was signed by Jawahar Lal Nehru and Mufti Muhammad Sayeed was part of Congress then. &#8220;They blame NC for selling water resources to GoI but reality is that they (PDP) sold it. My father was in jail at the time of signing of IWT accord,&#8221; he said.

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## KeenGuy

so much violence on Indian side of Kashmir. Yet when you go to Pakistan's side of Kashmiri there is *PEACE.*

Hmmm, has India ever thought about this. They need to back their bags and leave.

Daily protests in Indian occupied Kashmir, daily rape of women in Indian occupied Kashmir. 

This is the so called "peaceful and loving" India.


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## PakSher

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vjvn_tYDl2I/SzdHuuXQoAI/AAAAAAAAAQ4/cVuAAVZI11o/s640/indian+army+kashmir+muharram.jpg

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## PakSher



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## PakSher

Indian atrocities on Kahmiri Mulsims Rupee News

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## KeenGuy

*Girls&#8217; students protest in H-Kashmir against Indian atrocities*



*SRINAGAR: Students of different colleges and schools took to streets to lodge their protest against the killing of two women, including a student, after their rape by Indian troops in Shopian in held Kashmir on May 30.*

Chairman of the Hurriyat Conference (HC) Syed Ali Shah Geelani had appealed to the students to protest the incident in the afternoon.

Students took to streets and marched on different streets. The students of other educational institutions also took similar processions.

Raising pro-freedom slogans, the students were demanding immediate arrest of those involved in the incident.

A report from Baramulla said students of degree colleges and other educational institutions also led processions in the town, raising slogans against the authorities for failing to take any action against people involved in the Shopian incident.




Girls&#8217; students protest in H-Kashmir against Indian atrocities - GEO.tv


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## KeenGuy

*Indian experts exhume Kashmir rape victims bodies*



SHOPIAN: Indian forensic experts exhumed the bodies of two slain Kashmiri women Monday in an investigation aimed at defusing the latest tensions plaguing this bloody Himalayan region.

*Many in Muslim-majority Kashmir accuse Indian security forces of raping and murdering the women and say justice will only be served when the troops leave.*

'India has militarized every facet of Kashmir. These kinds of incidents are bound to happen as long as this occupation continues,' said school teacher Fayaz Ahmed.

Underscoring the ongoing violence in the region, claimed by both India and Pakistan and a perennial flashpoint between the rival nations, three suspected militants and a civilian woman were killed Monday in a shootout with security forces in the village of Tral in southern Kashmir, said Col. K. Umamaheswar, an army spokesman. Two paramilitary soldiers were wounded, he said.

The attacks on 22-year-old Neelofar Jan and her 17-year-old sister-in-law Asiya Jan dramatically rekindled anti-India sentiments in the territory, where militant groups have been fighting for independence since 1989 but where violence has been waning over the past few years.

The two disappeared in May as they walked home from their family's apple orchard. Local authorities first said the women had drowned when they found their bodies a kilometer apart in a shallow stream on May 30. But police later declared the two had been raped and murdered.

Authorities, however, failed to make any arrests and called in national investigators after weeks of violent protests by residents. The national investigators, and the security forces, have declined to comment.

The deaths led to 50 days of violent protests that shut down Shopian as protesters chanted 'We want freedom,' hurled rocks at security forces and ransacked government offices. Troops responded with gunfire and tear gas. 

At least two people were killed and 400 injured in the clashes that spread across the Kashmir valley.

On Monday, police and paramilitary forces with rifles and flak jackets closed the main roads leading to Shopian. The paths to the Muslim cemetery where the two women were buried were sealed with razor wire, and a tent shielded the grave sites from view.

A team of Indian doctors and forensic experts in the tent exhumed the bodies and conducted autopsies on the bodies throughout the day Monday, a local official who witnessed the process told The Associated Press. 

The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media while the investigation was ongoing.

The mood in Shopian was somber Monday, despite deep skepticism that the investigation will lead to arrests. Businesses were closed, and the streets were empty of vehicles as residents shut down the town, 35 miles south of Srinagar, the main city of Indian-controlled Kashmir.

'We have decided to fully cooperate so that they don't have any excuse to say that locals disrupted the exhumation process,' said Javaid Ahmed, a local activist.

The Shopian protests reflect the deep-seated skepticism in Indian-controlled Kashmir that India's security forces would be held to account. Human rights groups have long accused the troops here of brutality and using rape to intimidate residents.

'The government and its institutions have no credibility in Kashmir. People say, from experience, that these probes are conducted to camouflage reality,' said Sheikh Shokat, a law professor at the University of Kashmir in Srinagar. He said only an international investigation would satisfy the public.

Four police officers arrested on charges of suppressing and destroying evidence in the case were freed earlier this month, further stoking skepticism.

Throughout Shopian, black flags in memory of the women hang from shops and buildings. Dozens of women, some wailing with grief, gathered at the homes of the victims' families near the graveyard Monday.

'This fear will remain with us forever,' Neelofar Jan's mother, Ayesha, said as she sobbed. 'We are exhausted now. What can we do with this pain?'

When the investigators left the cemetery in the evening, hundreds of residents ran inside, shouting, 'We want justice,' and 'We are ashamed, sisters, that your killers are still alive.'

'All one can do is wait to see what the investigators can do,' said resident Abdul Ahad, an apple farmer from Shopian. 'But frankly speaking, no one expects the state to indict itself.' -AP

DAWN.COM | World | Indian experts exhume Kashmir rape victims? bodies


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## Bang Galore

DAWN.COM | World | Indian experts exhume Kashmir rape victims? bodies


*Story from Monday, 28 Sep, 2009 * Posted on 15 May 2010. What's with the Rip Van Winkles on this thread ?


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## KeenGuy

Bang Galore said:


> DAWN.COM | World | Indian experts exhume Kashmir rape victims? bodies
> 
> *Story from Monday, 28 Sep, 2009 * Posted on 15 May 2010. What's with the Rip Van Winkles on this thread ?




Oh so now the dead are now Van Winkles?

I guess the same mentality comes from the Indian soilders who commit these crimes against humanity.


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## dabong1

username said:


> hmmm... I have already told you that I disagree with your viewpoints ...



Which exact point do you disagree with? Are you saying that the elections where not rigged.
I gave you a neutral link to back up my point about the elections in Kashmir being rigged and that being the main trigger for the armed struggle,this then links onto why freedom fighters move along the LOC.



username said:


> *and I discourage anybody to say that the reporter of the report you mentioned (Altaf Hussain) was a pakistani politician... and your own country and sentenced him for 27 years in army major kidnapping case by special terrorist court.... * this will become a waste of time if we go down that path...



I dont seem to remember giving you a link to this story......i might be wrong.




username said:


> and let us stick to the feasibility and morality of you supporting your so called freedom fighters...



You dont want to discuss the history of the issue but want me to then tell you the reason why there fighting?




username said:


> What is this switched on again after a bit of time... so till then you will simply send your own country men on a suicide mission ?
> I find this reasoning to be insane... don't you think so ?



India wanted the movement of fighters across the LOC to be stopped before they would talk on the issue.
Pakistan stop the fighter and you indians fence the LOC and make new bunkers along the border and do nothing else but increase your demands.
You want to keep kashmir by force and we will help the kashmiris take it by force......it would be a lot better if we talked about the issue but you indians have to make more more gestures.....we stopped the fighters and you gave us a bus.




username said:


> Whenever a countries integral part is attacked it will send its army or CRPF or BSF (it's equivalent in other other countries), that is what the army is for...



If kashmir was an integral part of india then i would agree with you....but its not according to international opinion.



username said:


> Think about your so called freedom fighters ? what happens to their family after they die ? will they be given any decoration by your government (which it is obliged to do for exceptionary service if any at all).. or will your government give them a pension ... or will your government give them quotas or reservations for any of their family members in their educational institutes... no NONE... isn't this morally bankrupt ? nobody cares about them ... they are simply like used bullets ... aren't they ?
> If you disagree with the above points give links where in your government has considered the dead terrorist if at all he has served well according to your countries standard given any award... or that dead terrorist's family treated as same as that of a martyred uniformed men...



All the famlies of freedom fighters that are martyred are given a money and basic commodities every month.On top of that every eid they are given a small lump sum.
The freedom fighters that come baclk alive are given govt-tanzeem jobs.
I dont know about being givem medal but i know roads-schools and villages are named after the martyred freedom fighters.




username said:


> hmm... don't you know the results ? Kashmir for most part is with India and will be with India...



 




username said:


> See dude, let us not talk about reasons/who wants to be with who... we have seen enough of reasons from both sides and none of the threads really had a conclusion about whether Kashmiris wanted to be with India or with Pakistan or seperately... No body was able to convince other person... so I am telling you again... let us leave this in this thread... and only discuss about the feasibility of your infiltration giving any results...



Well we pinned down hundreds of thousand of indians and made you spend billions. 






username said:


> really ? doctors, engineers, teachers (don't count religious teachers of any religion) have taken arms and are crossing border for doing terrorism ? come on... how many of them do so... and if at all, give some links atleast please...
> *
> and this time I encourage you to give a credible link ... not a report written by a defamed Pakistani politician... or a person sentenced of terrorism.... a credible link is welcome... *




What difference will it make to your opinion if they are some doctors,engineers ect fighting against he occupation forces?


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## toxic_pus

dabong1 said:


> Which exact point do you disagree with? Are you saying that the elections where not rigged.
> I gave you a neutral link to back up my point about the elections in Kashmir being rigged and that being the main trigger for the armed struggle,this then links onto why freedom fighters move along the LOC.


Glad to know that at least one Pakistani acknowledges that the 'trigger' for armed struggle was not physical oppression by '700,000' IA troops.


> ...we will help the kashmiris take it by force...


Thanks for this honesty. At least you are not pretending that all this 'freedom fighting' is to demand 'right' for self-determination.

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## KS

Hope that good old man had been alive for a litttle longer....


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## karan.1970

BBC News - Kashmir militants 'regrouping' in Pakistan

Militants in Pakistani-administered Kashmir have regrouped on the Pakistani side of the divided territory, local politicians have told the BBC.

From 1988, militants aided by Pakistan's security forces waged a guerrilla war in the disputed region. 

But their activities were curtailed during the rule of President Pervez Musharraf from 2001 to 2008. 

Officials say that in recent weeks "Jihadi activities" have recommenced across the Line of Control (LoC). 

The LoC is the de facto border which separates Indian-administered Kashmir from Pakistani-administered Kashmir. 


Correspondents say that renewed militant activity is bound to be of concern to India, especially when Delhi and Islamabad almost came to war when militants - accused by India of being Pakistani-based - attacked the Indian parliament in December 2001. 

"Jihadi activities have been restarted during the last few weeks," Arif Shahid, secretary general of the All Parties National Alliance (APNA) told the BBC. 

"Most of the activities are concentrated in the Neelum Valley along the LoC." 


Mr Shahid - who has personally visited the region with other APNA leaders - said that militants were based there in large numbers and have set up camps in the area. 

*"The men are not locals - they have long hair and beards. Most do not speak the local language," he said. *

Local citizens in the Neelum Valley told the BBC much the same thing. 

"We are scared," a resident said. 

"The armed men are moving around the area and are trying to cross the border. 

*"We can make out from their appearances and languages they are not from any part of Kashmir." *


Mr Shahid said that he believed that the militants were planning to sabotage ongoing Pakistan-India peace negotiations. 

"They have set up camps in the region and many are crossing the border," he said. 

*"This is the start of another proxy war." *


*His comments are supported by Shaukat Maqbool Bhat, head of the anti-Indian Jammu Kashmir National Liberation Front (JKNLF). 

"The fighters are there and they are regularly crossing into India," Mr Bhat told the BBC.* 

"The local people are very scared - they believe the [militant] crossings are going to restart artillery exchanges between the Pakistani and Indian armies." 


This report backs India's claims that Pakistan is infusing non Kashmiri terrorists into the Kashmir insurgency. On a longer term, this will benefit India since it can remove whatever little support these insurgents enjoy in the India state of J&K

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## Kabir Panthi

*How free is my Valley?*

Saadia Gardezi (The Friday Times, Pakistan)

The Azad in AJK smacks of oxymoronic rhetoric. Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK) is neither a free territory, nor a province of Pakistan. Muzaffarabad has always been under the control of Islamabad and the curtailment of the freedom of expression is constitutionally protected. Without meaning to refer to the new name just bestowed on an old province, let me ask, whats in a name?

Here is what.

There are a number of reports that describe the human rights violations in Indian Occupied Kashmir but it is hard to come by reports of violations on Pakistans side. The Pakistani government often pretends that the only problems faced by Kashmiris are in India. The official position that there are no human rights violations in AJK is a naïve and disingenuous position that needs to be challenged. According to the Freedom House World Freedom Reports, in 2008 Pakistan-administered Kashmir was given the status Not Free. This index awards a score of 1 to a free country based on ratings of political rights and civil liberties. These ratings are averaged, ranging from 1 to 7, i.e. countries or disputed territories with scores from 1 to 2.5 are considered Free, 3 to 5 are Partly Free, and 5.5 to 7 are Not Free. In 2008, this index gave AJK a Political Rights Score of 7 and a Civil Liberties score of 5. The scores for AJK have improved to a 6 and a 5 respectively in 2010. In comparison, Indian Occupied Kashmir has better scores of 5 for political rights and a 4 for civil liberties, and a status of partly free, which ironically is exactly equivalent to Pakistans national score and status!

According to Brad Adams, Asia Director at Human Rights Watch , the Pakistani authorities govern Azad Kashmir with strict controls on basic freedoms The military shows no tolerance for dissent and practically runs the region as a fiefdom. The presence of an elected local government is a mere formality. In 2006, Human Rights Watch (HRW) reported that the federal government in Islamabad, the army and the ISI control all aspects of political life in AJK. Torture is routinely used in Pakistan, and this practice is also common in AJK. HRW also documented incidents of torture by the intelligence services and other agencies and individuals acting at the behest of the security establishment but knows of no cases in which members of military and paramilitary security and intelligence agencies have been prosecuted or even disciplined for acts of torture or mistreatment.

The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) has also articulated tight controls on freedom of expression as a key pillar of government policy in AJK. While militant organizations promoting the incorporation of Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir State into Pakistan have had free reign to propagate their views, groups promoting an independent Kashmir find their speech curtailed. Publications and literature favouring independence are banned.

Pakistan has prevented the creation of an independent media in the territory through bureaucratic restrictions and coercion. Looking at the freedom of expression in AJK, before 2005, the only radio allowed to operate was the Azad Kashmir Radio, a subsidiary of Radio Pakistan. Similarly before the earthquake telephone landlines were limited and being strictly monitored and a very limited mobile telephone service was operational. HRW reports that all telecommunications stations were controlled by the Special Communications Organization (SCO), a functional unit of the Pakistani army. Only after the earthquake did the government allow private mobile phone companies to operate in Azad Kashmir when it was pointed out that the loss of life could have been lessened had people and rescue workers had this technology as they did in affected areas in NWFP (as it was then called).

It has been widely reported that refugees from Jammu and Kashmir are discriminated against and mistreated by the authorities. Kashmiri refugees and former militants from India, most of whom are secular nationalists and culturally and linguistically different from the people of AJK, are particularly harassed through continuous surveillance, arbitrary beating and arrests and restraints on political expression. Pakistani military bases in AJK are usually placed in close proximity to highly populated civilian areas supposedly because of a lack of space. But many Kashmiris told HRW that the Pakistani military uses the bases to keep a close watch on the population to ensure political compliance and control.

Freedoms of association and assembly are restricted and constitutionally repressed. Article 4(7)(2) of the Azad Jammu and Kashmir Interim Constitution Act of 1974, states: No person or party in Azad Jammu and Kashmir shall be permitted to propagate against, or take part in activities prejudicial or detrimental to, the ideology of the States accession to Pakistan. In recent years anti-government demonstrations have been violently suppressed and examples of these incidents are not hard to find. In 2005, at least ten people were killed when the police fired on a group of Shia students, after which curfews were imposed in Gilgit to prevent demonstrators from assembling. In 2006 police detained leaders of the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front, including Amanullah Khan, after they attended a peaceful rally in Rawalpindi against the construction of the Bhasha Dam. Khan was detained for a week and was not permitted to receive visitors during that time, according to the U.S. State Departments human rights report. In October 2008, police baton-charged dozens of people demonstrating against the proposal to move the capital of Azad Kashmir from Muzaffarabad. Three people were arrested but released the same day. In November 2008, the police blocked activists of the pro-independence APNA who were protesting in favor of truck services across the line-of-control from entering a town near the line-of-control.

In 2007, the European Union (EU) passed Emma Nicholsons Kashmir report with an overwhelming majority and adopted it as an official EU document. This kind of report sits squarely in the grey area of the AJK problem. It has been touted in the media as being anti-Pakistan and there are Kashmiris who find it pro-Kashmiri rights and some call it dubious. The key problem with this report is that it fails to acknowledge Indian repression in Kashmir and portrays a benign image of a pro-people India.

The EU report titled Present situation and future prospects was critical of the fact that the Pakistan side of Kashmir was governed through the Ministry of Kashmir Affairs in Islamabad, that Pakistan officials dominated the Kashmir Council. This report also highlighted the facts that at the time the Chief Secretary, the Inspector-General of Police, the Accountant-General and the Finance Secretary were all from Pakistan. Nicholson disapproved of the provision in the 1974 Interim Constitution, which forbids any political activity that is not in accordance with the doctrine of Jammu and Kashmir as articulated by Pakistan, and obliges any candidate for a parliamentary seat in AJK to sign a declaration of loyalty to that effect.

Looking at the rule of law, the whole system of law and order seemingly rests on the control by the army and Islamabad. A clear illustration was given at the time of the 2005 earthquake when the AJK governmental structure collapsed. Analysts noted how, in the aftermath of 2005 earthquake the local government system was exposed. To quote Akbar Zaidi, the local government system and its elected bodies are part of the rubble along with the entire physical infra-structure of the area.

Due to the limited mandate of the AJK Legislative Assembly, the elected political leaders of Azad Kashmir essentially remain ostensible heads of the territory while the real power resides in Islamabad with the Ministry of Kashmir and Northern Areas (KANA). Naturally this requires an obedient AJK administration. Since the early 1990s, the decision-making authority and management of the Kashmir issue has been under the Pakistan military, the ISI and ISI backed militant organizations.

In this unique case of self-rule, under the constitution, the elected representatives are acquiescent to the Kashmir Council controlled by Islamabad. The High Court and Supreme Court Judges can only be appointed by approval of the Ministry of Kashmir Affairs in Islamabad. The Minister of Kashmir Affairs can dismiss the Prime Minister, as can the Chief Secretary  another Islamabad appointee. Under Article 56, the President of Pakistan can dissolve the Legislative Assembly.

Adding to the already dismal situation of human rights in AJK is the instability of the Northern Areas and the migration of these people into AJK. It can be argued that the appropriation of land in the Northern Areas by non-Kashmiri migrants with the tacit encouragement of the federal government and army has diminished economic opportunities for the local population. An externality of this has been an increase in sectarian tension between the majority Shia Muslims and the growing numbers of Sunnis in AJK and 2009 and 2010 have seen increasing tension and sectarian violence.

So is the human rights and law and order situation of AJK worse than that at the east of the line of control? Answers can range from yes to maybe to no. The truth is that this is a loaded question, and this sort of a comparison is hard to make. Reports and perspectives of AJK from the Indian side refer to AJK as Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. It is indeed true that there is a lack of consideration of human rights on both sides. Yet the facts are blurred by the political biases of both sides, and neutral reports become emotionally charged. External reporting by international watchdogs like Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch are a step behind. Research by organizations like the HRCP and reporting by local news channels is only just making headway.

The 2006 Human Rights Watch report on Kashmir quotes a Muzaffarabad resident, Pakistan says they are our friends and India is our enemy. I agree India is our enemy, but with friends like these, who needs enemies?

AJK is yet to operate as a free territory given the way we control it. Yet, understandably, we are loathe to accept this reality and our mainstream media is usually silent about this. Our rhetoric on AJK remains inflated and questionable.

'How free is my valley' from TFT

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## Kabir Panthi

Some people keep saying that people of "Azad" Kashmir and Northern Areas must be happy with Pakistan because there are no protests. Well, the above article gives us a good picture of what's happening there.


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## hal-fgfa

if u not allow media in pak occupied kashmir and claim that ..they all happy so how some one gonna believe

who know what they do with those peoples


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## username

dabong1 said:


> You dont want to discuss the history of the issue but want me to then tell you the reason why there fighting?



You have misunderstood, I do not want to know the reason for their fighting. I was asking about the feasibility of this approach based on logical arguments. 


when I said feasibility and morality, I was talking about the feasibility of this approach and morality of the people who support the terrorists (by not giving their family any benefits have the dead terrorists chosen to be with your army than becoming an infiltrator.... and make use of uneducated/poor people for whatever ulterior motives)...




dabong1 said:


> All the famlies of freedom fighters that are martyred are given a money and basic commodities every month.On top of that every eid they are given a small lump sum.
> The freedom fighters that come baclk alive are given govt-tanzeem jobs.
> I dont know about being givem medal but i know roads-schools and villages are named after the martyred freedom fighters.



Care to give a link ? care to prove this point ? 





dabong1 said:


> What difference will it make to your opinion if they are some doctors,engineers ect fighting against he occupation forces?



A world of difference, educated and successful people will have a life to live well. But the poor/uneducated people can be manipulated. Such a manipulation should not occur.


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## Materialistic

> if u not allow media in pak occupied kashmir and claim that ..they all happy so how some one gonna believe
> 
> who know what they do with those peoples



Well if the world calls 700,000 soldiers hanging over the head as free then we are sorry to be unable to provide that service to Kashmiris on our side. 

*They live in Pakistan.

they work here every one travels freely.

there are no killings of civilians by army or other security agencies. 

People share same problems with other Pakistanis and that is price hike, poverty, energy crises and other daily life issues. 

All the political parties have presence there, they have their own parties as well, 
their own PM, their own Assembly then how come some one can score it 7??? 

Even I have been there many times and its even better than other parts of Pakistan if security is the concern. *

*Most of all they don't want separation from Pakistan and they donot protest just because they are not suppressed!!!*

And that doesn't require much of logical calculations and common sense to understand that these signs show people are happy. But some super natural human species possessing average minds can't digest it.

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## Materialistic

The soul of this report considers Kashmir as an Independant state whereas both India and Pakistan consider it part of their country on either side of the border. 

But the only difference is on Pakistani side Pakistanis consider kashmir part of Pakistan and kashmiris too consider that kashmir is part of Pakistan. 

Where as on the other side of border its just one sided love, or passion of occupation.

*This freaking report mentions that many ministers and politicians in AJK are from Pakistan but it completely forgot or it was not in their pocket sized knowledge book that there are many Kashmiris who are politicians but they stand from other parts of Pakistan, because citizen of a country can do anything from any part of the country. *

*And kashmir and Pakistan are separate only on papers, we all consider kashmir part of Pakistan, let it be our kashmiri brothers or non-kashmiris of Pakistan.*

*This is the proof of situation on our side of border and just as it sounds it is Azad Kashmir.*

Infact, there is no need of such report. Since people living there are happy & satisfied!!

*JAB MIYAAN BIWI RAAZI TO KYA KAREGA QAZI*

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## Skeptic

hal-fgfa said:


> documentary ...........its a BS


I disagree. The documentary is not BS, but that thread has certainly turned into. 
The documentary shows difficulties faces by Kashmiris because of violence. In one of the clip, procession shown is of National Conference against PDP. The video was shot in 2006-07, and shows what goes on in *any *conflict zone. 

If there is a suspected terrorist, Police will do crackdowns - How else to you conduct COIN Ops - with civilian presence which can be used as human shields?? Even in Pakistan - They moved millions of civilians to clear out the area They will be compensated by the government for their losses, but seeing your home destroyed is a traumatic for anyone. They have to sustain these hardships because of hegemonic intention of a hostile neighbour. This has turned into ordeal of Kashmiris because of the terrorist activities of Pakistani supported organizations like LeT, Huji, JuD etc.


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## EjazR

*@Materialistic*

You have to be objective when you say Kashmiris too consider Kashmir part of Pakistan. This is not the reality when you look at the majority point of view. There is also a strong section of Kashmiris in Pakistan as well who are fighting for an independant J&K. Besides given the option-atleast on the Indian side- between just India and Pakistan, there is good possibility that Pakistan may lose out and I am talking about the muslims alone here. If you add the Buddhists and Hindu vote then you can see which side it would tilt


Here is a flashback for you, which I think you should re-read, along with the results of an independent public opinion survey done in 2008-09 by an Irish professor.

*http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/45649-profiling-j-k-police.html#post644984*

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## Creder

EjazR said:


> *@Materialistic*
> 
> You have to be objective when you say Kashmiris too consider Kashmir part of Pakistan. This is not the reality when you look at the majority point of view. There is also a strong section of Kashmiris in Pakistan as well who are fighting for an independant J&K. Besides given the option-atleast on the Indian side- between just India and Pakistan, there is good possibility that Pakistan may lose out and I am talking about the muslims alone here. If you add the Buddhists and Hindu vote then you can see which side it would tilt
> 
> 
> Here is a flashback for you, which I think you should re-read, along with the results of an independent public opinion survey done in 2008-09 by an Irish professor.
> 
> *http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/45649-profiling-j-k-police.html#post644984*



what is the source of this poll ?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

lol ok why not ask UN to conduct a poll themselves so kashmiris can deciede wat they want for themselves?
india afraid


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## KS

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> lol ok why not ask UN to conduct a poll themselves so kashmiris can deciede wat they want for themselves?
> india afraid



Yes the plebiscite will be conducted once the millions of Hindu Pandits who were chased out of the valley by ur "freedom fighters" will return to their homes and the settlers in ur AJK from other parts of Pakistan are sent back to their original places.


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## EjazR

Well anyone insisting on UN resolutions, and this particularly holds for the leadership of GoP or GoI, IMO is actually proving that they are NOT sincere with resolving the Kashmir issue. That they are just hypocrites who want to drag the problem.

Why is insisting on UN resolutions shows that they are insincere, among other reasons because:
(1) UN resolutions don't have the option of Independence and this option was removed on Pakistan's insistence. The majority of the separatists in India and Pakistan want Independence not joining Pakistan.
(2) Before the plebiscite can be implemented, there are clear pre-reqs which requires vacating Pakistani troops and those that are "not normally resident therein" to be removed from the J&K state including gilgit Baltistan. It would be foolish to expect the Pakistani army withdrawing from Pakistani Kashmir.
(3) If India wins the plebiscite, all J&K including Gilgit Baltistan will go to India, is realistic to expect Pakistan to handover this important land bridge to China over to India?


We need a resolution, but all heads have to be realistic and show that you are sincere. That was what Bhutto had agreed in the Shimla agreement.

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## KeenGuy

Karthic Sri said:


> *Yes the plebiscite will be conducted once the millions of Hindu Pandits who were chased out of the valley by ur "freedom fighters*" will return to their homes and the settlers in ur AJK from other parts of Pakistan are sent back to their original places.



what bullshit. if this was true what makes you think they want to live in a hostile environment where these hindus will be hated.

anyways you indians are just going to fill your side with hindus from all over india to distort the election result. 




*The United nations passed three resolutions calling for a plebiscite to be held but India ignored such calls. India refuses to hold a plebiscite for fear that the majority of Kashmiris would vote to join Pakistan.*


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## KeenGuy

hal-fgfa said:


> if u not allow media in pak occupied kashmir and claim that ..they all happy so how some one gonna believe
> 
> who know what they do with those peoples



They are not getting raped, beaten or killed. 

They are not forced to do anything they do not want to do, they have free travel rights.

Yes, there is poverty there, but what can Pakistan do? Pakistan is fighting terrorism, protecting threat from india.

Pakistan has no oil. There are other parts of Pakistan that are poor too.


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## KeenGuy

EjazR said:


> Well anyone insisting on UN resolutions, and this particularly holds for the leadership of GoP or GoI, IMO is actually proving that they are NOT sincere with resolving the Kashmir issue. That they are just hypocrites who want to drag the problem.
> 
> Why is insisting on UN resolutions shows that they are insincere, among other reasons because:
> (1) UN resolutions don't have the option of Independence and this option was removed on Pakistan's insistence. The majority of the separatists in India and Pakistan want Independence not joining Pakistan.
> (2) Before the plebiscite can be implemented, there are clear pre-reqs which requires vacating Pakistani troops and those that are "not normally resident therein" to be removed from the J&K state including gilgit Baltistan. It would be foolish to expect the Pakistani army withdrawing from Pakistani Kashmir.
> (3) *If India wins the plebiscite, all J&K including Gilgit Baltistan will go to India, is realistic to expect Pakistan to handover this important land bridge to China over to India?*
> 
> 
> We need a resolution, but all heads have to be realistic and show that you are sincere. That was what Bhutto had agreed in the Shimla agreement.



your kidding right. you do not actually think india will win?


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## Creder

@*EjazR after searching through a bit i found that the Indian poll was done by the Cvoter foundation of Delhi* *while the Pakistan Poll was done by D3 systems, Virginia*..The same company that is frequently scrutinized for its association with CIA (its located in virginia, very close to the CIA headquarters)

so excuse me for not believing those numbers you put up..they are nothing more than propaganda statistics created by an "Indian" agency since the polls in India were done by an "Indian" agency and not an independent agency.

Also i find this fact very ironic, it should have been the opposite case when selecting agencies because to really find out the public opionion in IoK a foreign agency should have been brought it but no, the polls were only "posted" on a foreign agency website.*.look at the report they posted on the website.In it tells that it was an Indian agency that conducted polls in India* *whereas in Pakistan where the situation is more stable a foreign agency and that too one that is known for its shady CIA association was brought in*


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## KS

KeenGuy said:


> what bullshit. if this was true what makes you think they want to live in a hostile environment where these hindus will be hated.



Now BS is wat u ve posted with utter disregard for facts.
they were living peacefully with their Kashmiri Muslim brethern until those Du**** terrorists chased them out of their homes.
They r more than willing to return to their homes and Indian govt should give them the security.



KeenGuy said:


> anyways you indians are just going to fill your side with hindus from all over india to distort the election result.



Again unadulterated BS.Article 370 of Indian constitution prohibits such a thing.But it is true of Pakistani Occupied Kashmir.Even them Jammu and Ladakh is fully Hindus and Buddhists and the fate of Jammu and Kashmir is sealed as a whole ,not in parts.






KeenGuy said:


> *The United nations passed three resolutions calling for a plebiscite to be held but India ignored such calls. India refuses to hold a plebiscite for fear that the majority of Kashmiris would vote to join Pakistan.*



We cant be holding plebiscites just because some nutcases go about shouting it..Anyways even if we conduct it it will be only after the UN specified conditions are met by Pakistan.Till then


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## EjazR

Creder said:


> @*EjazR after searching through a bit i found that the Indian poll was done by the Cvoter foundation of Delhi* *while the Pakistan Poll was done by D3 systems, Virginia*..The same company that is frequently scrutinized for its association with CIA (its located in virginia, very close to the CIA headquarters)
> 
> so excuse me for not believing those numbers you put up..they are nothing more than propaganda statistics created by an "Indian" agency since the polls in India were done by an "Indian" agency and not an independent agency.
> 
> Also i find this fact very ironic, it should have been the opposite case when selecting agencies because to really find out the public opionion in IoK a foreign agency should have been brought it but no, the polls were only "posted" on a foreign agency website.*.look at the report they posted on the website.In it tells that it was an Indian agency that conducted polls in India* *whereas in Pakistan where the situation is more stable a foreign agency and that too one that is known for its shady CIA association was brought in*



CVoter was working under Dr. Irwin and employed local Kashmiris to do the polling and questioning. I came to know about this report through a friend (a local Kashmiri) who was employed by the group. If you actually go through the report you will see how involved the process was. It was not just a simple poll and involved many rounds of discussions and compilations. The methodology is also given in the report.

There are other opinion surveys which say the same. I can quote the EU report as well in this regard.

D3 is also a market research group. And it would have definitely had to employ local people as well. 

Other similar surveys conducted resulted in similar outcomes and in the composite dialogue being formulated along these lines. The J&K govt. in India formed parliamentary panels to address the main concerns in detail. 

It is your choice if you want to accept the polls or not. But from opinion surveys and my experience. I can say that this is more or less accurate. 

If you don't see the reality that majority of the separatists elements in Indian Kashmir actually want independence and do not want to be part of Pakistan, then that is upto you.

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## KeenGuy

EjazR said:


> CVoter was working under Dr. Irwin and employed local Kashmiris to do the polling and questioning. I came to know about this report through a friend (a local Kashmiri) who was employed by the group. If you actually go through the report you will see how involved the process was. It was not just a simple poll and involved many rounds of discussions and compilations. The methodology is also given in the report.
> 
> There are other opinion surveys which say the same. I can quote the EU report as well in this regard.
> 
> D3 is also a market research group. And it would have definitely had to employ local people as well.
> 
> Other similar surveys conducted resulted in similar outcomes and in the composite dialogue being formulated along these lines. The J&K govt. in India formed parliamentary panels to address the main concerns in detail.
> 
> It is your choice if you want to accept the polls or not. But from opinion surveys and my experience. I can say that this is more or less accurate.
> 
> *If you don't see the reality that majority of the separatists elements in Indian Kashmir actually want independence and do not want to be part of Pakistan, then that is upto you.*



then why not let them be independent? why continue to rape, beat and kill?


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## hal-fgfa

Materialistic said:


> Well if the world calls 700,000 soldiers hanging over the head as free then we are sorry to be unable to provide that service to Kashmiris on our side.
> 
> *They live in Pakistan.
> 
> they work here every one travels freely.
> 
> there are no killings of civilians by army or other security agencies.
> 
> People share same problems with other Pakistanis and that is price hike, poverty, energy crises and other daily life issues.
> 
> All the political parties have presence there, they have their own parties as well,
> their own PM, their own Assembly then how come some one can score it 7???
> 
> Even I have been there many times and its even better than other parts of Pakistan if security is the concern. *
> 
> *Most of all they don't want separation from Pakistan and they donot protest just because they are not suppressed!!!*
> 
> And that doesn't require much of logical calculations and common sense to understand that these signs show people are happy. But some super natural human species possessing average minds can't digest it.



your must be joking ...........they have their own government.......
for wht .*. they have no power they cant do anything by their own* 

*no the other hand people from J&K select their own government who has power of decision taking* they are not dummy government 

by pakistan not allow press in pak occupied kashmir ???????????
in j&K press is total free 

in pak occupied kashmir their are lots of terrorist camps running 
by tht way u educate their childrens and u want to say that peoples in pak occupied kashmir are happy


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## EjazR

KeenGuy said:


> then why not let them be independent? why continue to rape, beat and kill?



Because, the GoP and majority of the people of J&K don't want that for one thing. When it comes to decide the future of J&K its not only the vocal sepratists but ALL the people of J&K including the pro-Indian muslims, the buddhists, the hindus and the pro-pakistani kashmiris of mirpur e.t.c. who will decide the future.

The first step is to understand the diverse opinions and then move ahead on the resolution.

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## bc040400065

hal-fgfa said:


> if u not allow media in pak occupied kashmir and claim that ..they all happy so how some one gonna believe
> 
> who know what they do with those peoples



firstly this article was on an another thread as well few weeks back..
secondly... why is this that all these kinds of articles are from indian media or indian trying to highlight this kind of crap...
well i have seen kashmiris as same citizen of pakistan as anyone else is...
they are facing the same problems as other pakistanis are facing..
and also it is one of the most peaceful areas and now a days best for tourism... so i don't know how one can find this kind of nonsense...

i have seen kashmiris in all parts of pakistan working freely and not only that they have a great population that is working abroad specially UK...
they have been member of parliaments in many EU countries...
and they are a realy strong community in UK
Now i don't know why those millions of kashmiris living in EU and other foreign countries come up with this kind of crap??
... if there is situation like what the article suggest then why those AJK people living in foreign countries and some of them even MP's don't raise these issues?? suprizing realy ... i suggest that these kinds of nonsense should not be allowed here...


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## bc040400065

hal-fgfa said:


> your must be joking ...........they have their own government.......
> for wht .*. they have no power they cant do anything by their own*
> 
> *no the other hand people from J&K select their own government who has power of decision taking* they are not dummy government
> 
> by pakistan not allow press in pak occupied kashmir ???????????
> in j&K press is total free
> 
> in pak occupied kashmir their are lots of terrorist camps running
> by tht way u educate their childrens and u want to say that peoples in pak occupied kashmir are happy



totally nonsense and based on hatred...
u know dear AJK has more literacy rate than rest of pakistan... any knowledge??? im sure even if you have any you sidelined just because you hate pakistan...
you know they have better road infratructure than rest of pakistan...
they have higher HDI than rest of pakistan....


and last i don't know why what is wrong with india but you are making fun of your self... just to hide what india is doing with kashmiris across the LOC.... 

please i know you hate pakistan but please try to be abit realistic


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## hal-fgfa

bc040400065 said:


> firstly this article was on an another thread as well few weeks back..
> secondly... why is this that all these kinds of articles are from indian media or indian trying to highlight this kind of crap...
> well i have seen kashmiris as same citizen of pakistan as anyone else is...
> they are facing the same problems as other pakistanis are facing..
> and also it is one of the most peaceful areas and now a days best for tourism... so i don't know how one can find this kind of nonsense...
> 
> i have seen kashmiris in all parts of pakistan working freely and not only that they have a great population that is working abroad specially UK...
> they have been member of parliaments in many EU countries...
> and they are a realy strong community in UK
> Now i don't know why those millions of kashmiris living in EU and other foreign countries come up with this kind of crap??
> ... if there is situation like what the article suggest then why those AJK people living in foreign countries and some of them even MP's don't raise these issues?? suprizing realy ... i suggest that these kinds of nonsense should not be allowed here...



if you talk nonsense BS (rape, kill ) so its ok and claim that people in j&k are not happy so its ok 

if as u claim they are that much happy so why press is not free in p0k ??? and why their elected government have no right of making decision ???? why pakistan show dummy government ??? 
why terrorist camps running in p0k ???


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## prodevelopment

bc040400065 said:


> totally nonsense and based on hatred...
> u know dear AJK has more literacy rate than rest of pakistan... any knowledge??? im sure even if you have any you sidelined just because you hate pakistan...
> you know they have better road infratructure than rest of pakistan...
> they have higher HDI than rest of pakistan....
> 
> 
> and last i don't know why what is wrong with india but you are making fun of your self... just to hide what india is doing with kashmiris across the LOC....
> 
> please i know you hate pakistan but please try to be abit realistic




Thanx for the information. Now please learn about the Indian side of J&K as well.

In 1947, J&K was at the bottom of the economic ladder in India. In 1960-61 it ranked 11th among 16 states of India in per capita income; in 1971-72, 14th among 24 states. But with generous Central assistance it had improved its position by 1981-82 to number 7, surpassing industrial West Bengal, A.P., Karnataka and Tamil Nadu!

What happened after that? Insurgency. It is not a coincidence that the per capita income of J&K has been stagnant for the past 20 years, since the insurgency started.

Everyone knows that the problem in J&K is NOT economic/developmental. It is political in nature. 

Kashmiris on the Indian side are allowed to air their greivances in public with a free and fair media presence. The same cannot be said about the so called Azad J&K.


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## Areesh

Mir Jafar from Bengal and Shiekh Abdullah from Kashmir.


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## Areesh

> "The fighters are there and they are regularly crossing into India," Mr Bhat told the BBC.



Perfect.


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## brahmastra

yupp... for you ,those who stayed/supported Hindu India are Mir Jafars


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## DESERT FIGHTER

FREE KASHMIR...JUSTICE FOR ALL

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## hal-fgfa

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> FREE KASHMIR...JUSTICE FOR ALL



watch day dream and stay cool & happy


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## hal-fgfa

bc040400065 said:


> totally nonsense and based on hatred...
> u know dear AJK has more literacy rate than rest of pakistan... any knowledge??? im sure even if you have any you sidelined just because you hate pakistan...
> you know they have better road infratructure than rest of pakistan...
> they have higher HDI than rest of pakistan....
> 
> 
> and last i don't know why what is wrong with india but you are making fun of your self... just to hide what india is doing with kashmiris across the LOC....
> 
> please i know you hate pakistan but please try to be abit realistic



roads for whom army ??? what about internal road ?

The literacy rate in Azad Kashmir was 62&#37; in 2004, higher than in any other region in Pakistan.However, *only 2.2% were graduates, compared to the average of 2.9% for the whole of Pakistan.*

why you dont say anything about powers of government of azad kashmir ??
what about independence of press ????

*and what about northen area ???*


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## afriend

Materialistic said:


> Well if the world calls 700,000 soldiers hanging over the head as free then we are sorry to be unable to provide that service to Kashmiris on our side.
> 
> *They live in Pakistan.
> 
> they work here every one travels freely.
> 
> there are no killings of civilians by army or other security agencies.
> 
> People share same problems with other Pakistanis and that is price hike, poverty, energy crises and other daily life issues.
> 
> All the political parties have presence there, they have their own parties as well,
> their own PM, their own Assembly then how come some one can score it 7???
> 
> Even I have been there many times and its even better than other parts of Pakistan if security is the concern. *
> 
> *Most of all they don't want separation from Pakistan and they donot protest just because they are not suppressed!!!*
> 
> And that doesn't require much of logical calculations and common sense to understand that these signs show people are happy. But some super natural human species possessing average minds can't digest it.



Well there is a difference here buddy.. there is no india meddling up in their business where as in kashmir.. you have pakistan puting up their nose sending in terrorists.

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## NWO

afriend said:


> you have pakistan puting up their nose sending in terrorists.


One man's terrorists is another man's freedom fighter. Kind of like the terrorists who had the audacity to incite the Sepoy rebellion...

Wonder why no one is disputing China's territory?


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## ice_man

afriend said:


> Well there is a difference here buddy.. there is no india meddling up in their business where as in kashmir.. you have pakistan puting up their nose sending in terrorists.



well "BUDDY" if india withdraws its troops & holds a plebiscite i guess we can solve kashmir issue! you don't want to solve it on the table you don't want to solve it through UN what options are there? ofcourse i know your usual rant "kashmir is our part " that is not acceptable to the people living in kashmir nor to the pakistanis!


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## bc040400065

hal-fgfa said:


> if you talk nonsense BS (rape, kill ) so its ok and claim that people in j&k are not happy so its ok
> 
> if as u claim they are that much happy so why press is not free in p0k ??? and why their elected government have no right of making decision ???? why pakistan show dummy government ???
> why terrorist camps running in p0k ???



as again i would have to say it... "*geneius"* indian friend...
if you read my post what i said was that if what you percieve that there is no freedom and all that then what about those more than million kashmiris living and working in western countries specially UK... they are members of parliament there and still they are under pressure from pakistan???? why don't they raise these issues of what you say surpression and no freedom to the people in AJK???? why are they not shouting like you indian???? and please first read the post and then answer ok... as i said before you hate pakistan then clearly say it ... but don't hide your hatred under these lame excuses ....


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## prodevelopment

bc040400065 said:


> as again i would have to say it... "*geneius"* indian friend...
> if you read my post what i said was that if what you percieve that there is no freedom and all that then what about those more than million kashmiris living and working in western countries specially UK... they are members of parliament there and still they are under pressure from pakistan???? why don't they raise these issues of what you say surpression and no freedom to the people in AJK???? why are they not shouting like you indian???? and please first read the post and then answer ok... as i said before you hate pakistan then clearly say it ... but don't hide your hatred under these lame excuses ....



100 e-creds to you if you can name 10 P O K born members of parliament in US/UK.


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## bc040400065

hal-fgfa said:


> roads for whom army ??? what about internal road ?
> 
> *The literacy rate in Azad Kashmir was 62% in 2004, higher than in any other region in Pakistan.*However, *only 2.2% were graduates, compared to the average of 2.9% for the whole of Pakistan.*
> 
> why you dont say anything about powers of government of azad kashmir ??
> what about independence of press ????
> 
> *and what about northen area ???*



dear you are making a fun of yourself 
realy you hate pakistan ..... but before posting any comment try to have some info about the topic ... 
and you surely are *geneius* man... but problem is you cannot hide your hatred towards pakistan...


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## prodevelopment

bc040400065 said:


> dear you are making a fun of yourself
> realy you hate pakistan ..... but before posting any comment try to have some info about the topic ...
> and you surely are *geneius* man... but problem is you cannot hide your hatred towards pakistan...



You know, it would help your credibility a lot if you would post statistics/reliable news reports refuting his comments. Reply to his post, rather than him personally.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.


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## bc040400065

prodevelopment said:


> 100 e-creds to you if you can name 10 P O K born members of parliament in US/UK.



i don't remember everyones name but lord Nazeer ahmed is one famous person... even last election in norway they had a kashmiri MP.. but there are a million kashmiris living in foreign countries and they always protest infront of the indian embassy for the human rights violations in IOK.... not against what you say "supression by pakistan"...

and one simple question please answer me... why the people in kashmir valley specially always protest against indian rule???? there are 700000 indian troops in kashmir and they cannot stop these protest and how come 50000 pak army troops can have that much control that there is hardly any protest against pakistan???? why????
just answer me simple question and please for a minute set aside your hatred towards pakistan and then answer...


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## prodevelopment

bc040400065 said:


> and one simple question please answer me... why the people in kashmir valley specially always protest against indian rule????
> there are 700000 indian troops in kashmir and they cannot stop these protest and how come 50000 pak army troops can have that much control that there is hardly any protest against pakistan???? why????
> just answer me simple question and please for a minute set aside your hatred towards pakistan and then answer...





It is called freedom of speech. Look it up.

The 7,00,000 troops are NOT there to stop the protest. They are there to PROTECT the protesters. Indian troops are not allowed BY LAW to stop the protesters.

If you go through the opening post, you would realize that it is BANNED in P O K constitution to PROTEST against Pakistan. So, 50,000 Pakistani troops have the right to stop protest there.

That is why you never hear about protests in P O K.

Oh and another thing, even if there are protests in P O K, how would we come to know? There is no independent/free media present there.

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## bc040400065

prodevelopment said:


> Thanx for the information. Now please learn about the Indian side of J&K as well.
> 
> In 1947, J&K was at the bottom of the economic ladder in India. In 1960-61 it ranked 11th among 16 states of India in per capita income; in 1971-72, 14th among 24 states. But with generous Central assistance it had improved its position by 1981-82 to number 7, surpassing industrial West Bengal, A.P., Karnataka and Tamil Nadu!
> 
> What happened after that? Insurgency. It is not a coincidence that the per capita income of J&K has been stagnant for the past 20 years, since the insurgency started.
> 
> Everyone knows that the problem in J&K is NOT economic/developmental. It is political in nature.
> 
> Kashmiris on the Indian side are allowed to air their greivances in public with a free and fair media presence. The same cannot be said about the so called Azad J&K.



As your own figures tells that AJK is more developed than IOK... infact it is more developed than rest of pakistan... as that indian member himself posted that AJK has 62&#37; literacy rate which is better than rest of pakistan.. their HDI index is better than many other part of pakistan.. 
and about freedom of press ...well how can you say that??? have you ever been to AJK???
no never so then how can you be judge on this issue??
how can you just stand up and claim that there is no freedom of press in AJK.. as one other pakistani member pointed out AJK people are in the same conditions as any other pakistani is... they are facing the same difficulties as any other pakistani is facing..
and as for their government is concern they have their own parliament, their own President, their own Prime Minister, their own Supreme Court and High Court... they have their own budget their own cabinet handles all their day to day business...
their are thousands of AJK people serving in the Arm forces specially Army... some even have been Generals... like the last one i know is 4 star General Aziz khan retired as Joint Chiefs of staff in 2005... 
so how come they are not free... and its realy surprizing that more than 3 million people of AJK are surpressed by pakistan for last 63 years and no one even noticed??? i just cannot accept this propaganda stuff... why because i see it with my own eyes ... but why cann't you accept this reality well because of pure hatred towards pakistan..


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## bc040400065

prodevelopment said:


> It is called freedom of speech. Look it up.
> 
> The 7,00,000 troops are NOT there to stop the protest. They are there to PROTECT the protesters. Indian troops are not allowed BY LAW to stop the protesters.
> 
> If you go through the opening post, you would realize that it is BANNED in P O K constitution to PROTEST against Pakistan. So, 50,000 Pakistani troops have the right to stop protest there.
> 
> That is why you never hear about protests in P O K.
> 
> Oh and another thing, even if there are protests in P O K, how would we come to know? There is no independent/free media present there.



well i know how they protect the protesters by openly firing and killing inocent civilian protesting for their just demand... and i don't want to mention the rape and other toture that indian army carries out every single day... as for AJK.. well i know you would not accept it so im not here to troll... you don't accept my point its fine... but believe me what ever you or this article posted says is totally crap.. why i say it because i have seen it with my own eyes what the people of AJK feel and how much they love pakistan... so i would only accept what my own eye sees not what any irrelevant person writes...


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## prodevelopment

bc040400065 said:


> As your own figures tells that AJK is more developed than IOK



Of course it is. As a Pakistani living in current times, you should know how bombings and terrorism slows down the economy. No comparison there. 

I, however, would concede this point to you if you show me figures from before 1988 when the insurgency started.



bc040400065 said:


> and about freedom of press ...well how can you say that??? have you ever been to AJK???
> no never so then how can you be judge on this issue??
> how can you just stand up and claim that there is no freedom of press in AJK..



No I have never been to AJK. But I'm pretty sure you have not been to J&K either. So we both are basing our analysis on other sources.

I am basing my point on freedom of speech on the opening post. 

_Looking at the freedom of expression in AJK, before 2005, the only radio allowed to operate was the Azad Kashmir Radio, a subsidiary of Radio Pakistan. Similarly before the earthquake telephone landlines were limited and being strictly monitored and a very limited mobile telephone service was operational. HRW reports that all telecommunications stations were controlled by the Special Communications Organization (SCO), a functional unit of the Pakistani army. Only after the earthquake did the government allow private mobile phone companies to operate in Azad Kashmir when it was pointed out that the loss of life could have been lessened had people and rescue workers had this technology as they did in affected areas in NWFP (as it was then called)._

Kindly refute the same.




bc040400065 said:


> as one other pakistan member pointed out AJK people are in the same conditions as any other pakistani is... they are facing the same difficulties as any other pakistan is facing..



I think they were talking about economic problems. I addressed that point in the post you quoted.


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## afriend

ice_man said:


> well "BUDDY" if india withdraws its troops & holds a plebiscite i guess we can solve kashmir issue! you don't want to solve it on the table you don't want to solve it through UN what options are there? ofcourse i know your usual rant "kashmir is our part " that is not acceptable to the people living in kashmir nor to the pakistanis!



Hey.. rant deserves a rant.. dont you think? You stop the plebisicite **** then we stop our pakistan exporting terror rant ****..!!! We remain as we are and move on..!!! 

And yes solve it on table.. What table may i ask? On one hand you give bombs and ak 47's and on the other hand you are giving roses and ask for plebiscite? Should we accept that? you temme..!!! If you are in our position you tell me.. would you accept those roses???


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## bc040400065

prodevelopment said:


> I am basing my point on freedom of speech on the opening post.
> 
> _Looking at the freedom of expression in AJK, before 2005, the only radio allowed to operate was the Azad Kashmir Radio, a subsidiary of Radio Pakistan. Similarly before the earthquake telephone landlines were limited and being strictly monitored and a very limited mobile telephone service was operational. HRW reports that all telecommunications stations were controlled by the Special Communications Organization (SCO), a functional unit of the Pakistani army. Only after the earthquake did the government allow private mobile phone companies to operate in Azad Kashmir when it was pointed out that the loss of life could have been lessened had people and rescue workers had this technology as they did in affected areas in NWFP (as it was then called)._
> 
> Kindly refute the same.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .





it was the same in other parts as well... mobile phone services really peaked somewhat after 2004 throughout pakistan so no point in that... also both functionaly and constitutionaly AJK is not a full unit of Federation of pakistan. GOP is only acting in the foreign and defence related matters. cellular phone companies were not allowed in AJK because of the above mentioned matter, even PTCL did not have any network so SCO had to develop landline phone network.... whether india accept or not but according to the UN kashmir is a disputed territory... and one thing more that private companies invest only if they see any long term benefits and if the area is small as AJK is normally the government has to do more investment.. so that is the case there is only one radio although now there are FM radios in AJK because again there have been alot of licenses given to media groups for FM radio transmission throughout pakistan .. so again the freedom of media is same as in pakistan... so no point in that...


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## KS

ice_man said:


> well "BUDDY" if india withdraws its troops & holds a plebiscite i guess we can solve kashmir issue!



Im repeating this over and over but Pakistanis conviniently choose to ignore it.
"The plebiscite will be conducted once the millions of Kashmiri pandits who were chased out of the valley by ur so-called-freedom fighters are brought back to their homes and the settled Pakistanis in P-O-K are sent back to their original lands"




ice_man said:


> you don't want to solve it on the table you don't want to solve it through UN what options are there?



Former UN general Kofi Annan himself has said that the Kashmir resolutions are thru Chapter 7 and hence *they r non-enforceable*.We will wait till Pakistan abides by the UN resolutions and then will hold the plebiscite. 




ice_man said:


> ofcourse i know your usual rant "kashmir is our part " that is not acceptable to the people living in kashmir



Rant for u..but perfect logic for us.nd the million pandits,the brave jawans of the J&K Light Infantry (who have fought against Pak in all wars),the ppl of Jammu,Ladakh etc. find it perfectly acceptable.




ice_man said:


> nor to the pakistanis!



As if we care.


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## indopak

* Consensus on Kashmir *

The India-Pakistan peace process must have a Kashmir settlement as its clear goal; but no settlement will work unless it is supported by a domestic consensus within each of the three parties  India, Pakistan and Kashmir.

All Kashmiris, separatists and unionists, are now agreed that the future of Kashmir cannot be decided without the concurrence of Pakistan. In India, the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) is sworn to oppose any initiative by the present government on any major issue, whether domestic or foreign. In 2004 L.K. Advani asserted that the Hindus would trust the BJP alone to forge an accord with Pakistan. In 2007 he and Atal Behari Vajpayee asked Pakistani visitors to wait till the BJP returned to power; it would give better terms. Both are false. The country will back Prime Minister Manmohan Singh who received a renewed mandate in 2009 which ends in 2014.

In Pakistan resentment against Gen Pervez Musharraf has in some minds rubbed off on his four-point proposal; understandably but not rationally. But, Nawaz Sharif has a formidable record of support for an entente with India and a settlement of Kashmir based on a fair compromise. While in office as prime minister, he told visiting Indian publicists: We will all have to give up something. India will have to step back; Pakistan will have to step back; and so will the Kashmiris. He clearly envisaged a compromise. In opposition he told an Indian correspondent on Dec 28, 1995 that he would support to the hilt any sincere effort by Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto to improve relations with India.

He repeated his commitment at least twice during the election campaign in February 1997. This is now a part of my election platform, he told his colleague Sartaj Aziz. As premier he met Prime Minister I.K. Gujral in Male in May 1997. The upshot was the joint statement of June 23, 1997 on a composite dialogue.

In 1998, a BJP regime came to power in India. Prime Ministers Nawaz Sharif and Vajpayee met in New York in September and decided to launch a back-channel. At the Lahore summit in February 1999 they decided to accelerate it. They agreed also that neither side would reiterate its extreme position  UN resolutions and Kashmir as a non-negotiable issue. Kargil flooded the channel.

What is the status of the Kashmir dispute today? Since 1990 even the US ceased to talk of the UN resolutions. In February 1958 Prime Minister Feroz Khan Noon met the US envoy to the UN, Henry Cabot Lodge, in Karachi. Ambassador James M. Langley recorded: Noon made no mention of a plebiscite and it seemed to me that he was clearly thinking of a compromise which would provide for a territorial division between India and Pakistan.

Noon was no traitor. A few months earlier on April 29, 1957, the UN mediator on Kashmir Gunnar Myrdal had, in his report, pronounced those resolutions as virtually obsolete: The situation with which they were to cope has tended to change. That was 50 years ago. On March 23, 1962 Ayub Khan was prepared to drop plebiscite if India offered an alternative. The Z.A. BhuttoSwaran Singh talks (1962-3) centred on a partition line in Kashmir; not on plebiscite.

*This is the reality which Nawaz Sharif faced in 1998 and Gen Pervez Musharraf at Agra in 2001. Any settlement of Kashmir must meet one clear test and conform to four limitations. It must be acceptable to all the three parties. The limits? First, no Indian government can accept de-accession of Kashmir and survive even for an hour. Secondly, no government in Pakistan can accept the Line of Control as an international boundary and survive, either. Thirdly, nor will the Kashmiris submit to the partition; and lastly they insist on self-rule.*

All old notions of a final settlement of the dispute come up against those four hurdles, a burden history has imposed. Four points bypass them. They are, as Manmohan Singh said, on May 2, 2008, a non-territorial solution; an agreed arrangement reviewable after 10 or 15 years. We no longer squabble over sovereignty; but proceed to improve the situation on the ground by concrete steps so that in actual practice the concerns of each side are met and the four limits are not violated either.

How? The first of the four points envisages that since borders cannot be redrawn, we can, as Manmohan Singh said on March 24, 2006, *work towards making them irrelevant  towards making them just lines on a map*. In effect the state is reunited, de facto though not de jure. Men, goods, and literature will move freely across the LoC. The Hizb leader Syed Salahuddin will return to his home in Srinagar. The entire scenario will change radically, to the benefit of Kashmiri.

Especially since this will be coupled with the three other points  *demilitarisation, self-governance and a joint mechanism*. Manmohan Singh described them as institutional arrangements. Pakistan will have a say on matters like water management. This arrangement will grow with time, and is open to improvement. For instance an All J&K Assembly, comprising legislators, can be set up as a purely consultative body on matters other than defence and politics. Precise arrangements can be stipulated to ensure free movement.

*The former foreign minister Khurshid Kasuri has authoritatively established that such an accord was reached. Is it to be discarded because it bears the Musharraf tag? No responsible parent rejects a proposal for their daughters marriage because he or she disapproves of the boys father; especially if he is separated from the father, the daughter is none too young and other proposals are not in sight.*

Syed Salahuddin endorsed it as a first step on Feb 27, 2007, so did Mirwaiz Umar Farooq on March 20, 2007. Time is fast running out. Such an opportunity to clinch matters may not occur for long. As Mao advised Nixon on Feb 21,1972, You must seize the hour and seize the day.


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## Storm Force

I think people need to realise and understand that the PARTION boundaries and subsequent borders after the Kashmir war in 1948 HAVE been drawn with blood. 

No one is going to yeild an inch NOT pakistan NOT india. 

The only option is for disaffected people to migrate to the side of Kashmir that they wish to reside in. IE pAKISTAN held Kashmir or India held held kashmir. 

Millions of punjabis did this in 1947 SO WHY CANT KASHMIRIS who do not want indian rule.

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## gurjot

we shud go in time earlier 1947


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## Rafael

Prometheus said:


> *kashmir is integral part of India*
> end of dispute
> 
> *you are rite by saying that India doesnot want to resolve Kashmir issue.
> India also dont want to resolve other issues like saichen, water, sir chreek etc.*
> 
> because India is not gonna benefit from this.
> pakistan is gonna be in gain not India




If people of India want their hard earned money to be spent on "unnecessary" defence budget, if they want their govt. to spend more on buying fancy fighter jets than education, health, clean drinking water, toilets, environment and above all if they want to live in under threat of a nuclear war; then they must not press their govt. to resolve these issues and maintain status quo.

God help subcontinent!


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## gurjot

raheel1 said:


> If people of India want their hard earned money to be spent on "unnecessary" defence budget, if they want their govt. to spend more on buying fancy fighter jets than education, health, clean drinking water, toilets, environment and above all if they want to live in under threat of a nuclear war; then they must not press their govt. to resolve these issues and maintain status quo.
> 
> God help subcontinent!



y dont u reverse the condition to pak,even pak is in more trouble.toilets,education level,clean drinking water,environment etc.govt is doing it's work.but it will take few years to c the result.watever we are watching some modernization in india ,it is due to the steps taken in 90's and then after not in 2009.every thing has a time.i m building my own country ,u shud also do same.not trying to interfere in others matter.again n again plz don't repeat nuclear threat.u shu think so only if u will not get awesome reply.have a very gud night sir

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## Evil Flare

Prometheus said:


> *kashmir is integral part of India*
> end of dispute
> 
> you are rite by saying that India doesnot want to resolve Kashmir issue.
> India also dont want to resolve other issues like saichen, water, sir chreek etc.
> 
> because India is not gonna benefit from this.
> pakistan is gonna be in gain not India





You $hut the Fccuk UP ...

Colonial Times are Over

Its not India's LAND , That belong to kashmiris ONLY !!!!

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Prometheus said:


> *kashmir is integral part of India*
> end of dispute
> 
> you are rite by saying that India doesnot want to resolve Kashmir issue.
> India also dont want to resolve other issues like saichen, water, sir chreek etc.
> 
> because India is not gonna benefit from this.
> pakistan is gonna be in gain not India



And gandhi didnt sleep with little girls.....wont say anything else.

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## gurjot

Aamir Zia said:


> You $hut the Fccuk UP ...
> 
> Colonial Times are Over
> 
> Its not India's LAND , That belong to kashmiris ONLY !!!!



sinior member i think coming to their extent by using this lang lol,who r u to take care of kashmiris ,even u r not kashmiri....u shud have heart and mind to bear the truth lol.it's ur wish

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## gurjot

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> And gandhi didnt sleep with little girls.....wont say anything else.



wen u didnt have anything,u jumped to gandhi.u r testing the limits i think.ab aap so jao miyan

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## DESERT FIGHTER

gurjot said:


> wen u didnt have anything,u jumped to gandhi.u r testing the limits i think.ab aap so jao *miyan*



listen buddy..dont u guuys try to be over smart IOK is a disputed region.world doesnt give a dousche wat india thinks....nor do i care to remind u wat nehrus stance was in UN.Which is still by the way the SAME.
About gandhi i hope there was much more anyways leave tht.
Last and most imortant point dont call me a mian......coz wife use the word mian for thier husbands.......And i aint tht kinda man.
So kindly keep it in mind.
Thnks

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## UnitedPak

Storm Force said:


> I think people need to realise and understand that the PARTION boundaries and subsequent borders after the Kashmir war in 1948 HAVE been drawn with blood.
> 
> No one is going to yeild an inch NOT pakistan NOT india.
> 
> The only option is for disaffected people to migrate to the side of Kashmir that they wish to reside in. IE pAKISTAN held Kashmir or India held held kashmir.
> 
> Millions of punjabis did this in 1947 SO WHY CANT KASHMIRIS who do not want indian rule.



When Punjab was split it was on the basis of Muslim, Sikh majority areas. Currently India occupies massively Muslim majority areas and the ten million people would never agree to leave their lands. 
A district wise referendum is probably the best bet. India would get to keep Jammu and parts of Ladakh, while Pakistan would probably get Kashmir valley. Strategically, not much would change as India still wont get access to Central Asia and Pakistan wont get access to Himachal Pardesh.

Neither country should aim to occupy people who dont want to be with them. And bearing that in mind, nobody can say for sure who wants what, without conducting a referendum first. The people in power will have to make that decision if they want this dispute settled. If that decision is not made, then nobody should be pretending they are for Indo Pak peace and stability.


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## gurjot

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> listen buddy..dont u guuys try to be over smart IOK is a disputed region.world doesnt give a dousche wat india thinks....nor do i care to remind u wat nehrus stance was in UN.Which is still by the way the SAME.
> About gandhi i hope there was much more anyways leave tht.
> Last and most imortant point dont call me a mian......coz wife use the word mian for thier husbands.......And i aint tht kinda man.
> So kindly keep it in mind.
> Thnks



dude watever u say,it's better to have a soln of kashmir issue,but upto max india can't free the kashmir or give it to pak.billions of indians are ready to die.and any indian govt will never think to be thrown out 4 ever.and one thing more in 65 ,the last chance to get kashmir is gone,at that time india was weak.now nothing.watever talks are going on,it is u.s pressure which means just passing time.
and u.s will upto max don't want to loose india just 4 afpak.this is diplomacy.

abt miyan,i watched a lot of serials in which miyan is usually used in the same style in which i was stating.

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## KS

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> And gandhi didnt sleep with little girls.....wont say anything else.



U dum**** dont bring in the Father of our Nation into it....Doesnt take me much time to reciprocate it..Better watch ur words.

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## KS

UnitedPak said:


> A district wise referendum is probably the best bet.
> India would get to keep Jammu and parts of Ladakh, while Pakistan would probably get Kashmir valley. Strategically, not much would change as India still wont get access to Central Asia and Pakistan wont get access to Himachal Pardesh.



If u want a district wise referendum..sorry sir that not possible as the UNSC resolutions dont allow it.
Nd moreover according to UNSC resolutions ,if a referendum is conducted it should be for the entire J&K during the Raja's reign(including P-O-K,Northern areas,Areas under Chinese occupation) not on a piecemeal basis that suits you.

Crisply put the referendum will take place when :

1) The millions of Kashmiri Hindu Pandits who were chased out of their homes by the terrorists are allowed to come back to the valley.and this may include the Mirpuri muslims on ur side also.

2)The settled Pakistanis in P-O-K are sent back to their original places

3)the areas under Chinese occupation (Shaksgam valley,Aksai Chin) are returned to India so that referendum can be conducted there.



UnitedPak said:


> Neither country should aim to occupy people who dont want to be with them. And bearing that in mind, nobody can say for sure who wants what, without conducting a referendum first. The people in power will have to make that decision if they want this dispute settled. If that decision is not made, then nobody should be pretending they are for Indo Pak peace and stability.



The referendum willl be conducted wen all the above UNSC mandated conditions are met.
And mind u after all the wars fought,millions of lives lost on both sides even if the referendum is conducted do u think any of the side will agree to it...? -NO- in my opinion.
And it is not just land at stake..its the National honor(though it shuldn be) thats at stake. 

The only realistic option that both nations can sell to their respective ppl of not succumbing to the other is converting the LOC into IB.
and in my opinion it will ultimately burn down to that.

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## Rafael

gurjot said:


> y dont u reverse the condition to pak,even pak is in more trouble.toilets,education level,clean drinking water,environment etc.govt is doing it's work.but it will take few years to c the result.watever we are watching some modernization in india ,it is due to the steps taken in 90's and then after not in 2009.every thing has a time.i m building my own country ,u shud also do same.not trying to interfere in others matter.again n again plz don't repeat nuclear threat.u shu think so only if u will not get awesome reply.have a very gud night sir



We are very well aware of our problems but at the same time we want these issues to get resolved so that we can concentrate on well being of our masses, but your govt. seems uninterested which is not helping.


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## jagjitnatt

If all Pak cares is for the Kashmiris, they can have the people. All the people who do not want to live in Indian administered land can just go to Pakistan.

Kashmir problem is much more *complex *than this. The way Indians and Pakistanis see this problem is *very different*. Pakistanis have been *fed *this *theory *that Kashmir is a *troubled *region, people are being *raped and killed, massacred in a way*. But this is the *not entirely true*. This *hysteria *was created by Pak govt and Army to *get support of Pakistanis* and justify the military action on Kashmir and India, be it *1948, 1965 or Kargil.*

Now after 60 years, the belief has become *concrete*. Its something Pakistanis believe in because this is what they have been *hearing from their parents, grandparents, media, government, everywhere.*

And I *don't* blame the Pakistanis for it. This kind of hysteria gets created in India too.

But Pakistanis being the super emotional beings regarding their religion have taken this matter as their highest priority, which is not the requirement. 

Kashmir today is developing just like every other state of India. We have airports, roads, railways, IAS officers, singers, industries developing in Kashmir. Tourism has been the biggest boost. People are *more than happy* in major cities of Kashmir.

The problem started in 90 when cross border terrorism was at its peak. Terrorist outfits started operating in Kashmir and bomb blasts became a norm. This is when the brainwashed people starting advocated for free Kashmir.


The problem with a plebicite is that millions of Kashmiri Pandits originally from Kashmir have been relocated from Kashmir and refuging in other states. If they participate in plebicite, that won't be acceptable to Pak. Another problem is that a religious plebicite could spark religious violence in India. India is a secular country and no religion should be given special rights. That would be against the meaning of secularism itself.

*Neither India, nor Pakistan* is ready to let go of any territory. India is *ready *to cement the current LOC into International Boundary. It is Pakistan that is singing the same old tune. Pakistan needs to change its attitude towards the problem and understand that no country in the world would give away an inch of its territory. It can never be a take take situation.

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## billi

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> And gandhi didnt sleep with little girls.....wont say anything else.



this is a hurtful post to indians. think about your prophet first and then talk about what gandhi did or did not


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## billi

Karthic Sri said:


> If u want a district wise referendum..sorry sir that not possible as the UNSC resolutions dont allow it.
> Nd moreover according to UNSC resolutions ,if a referendum is conducted it should be for the entire J&K during the Raja's reign(including P-O-K,Northern areas,Areas under Chinese occupation) not on a piecemeal basis that suits you.
> 
> Crisply put the referendum will take place when :
> 
> 1) The millions of Kashmiri Hindu Pandits who were chased out of their homes by the terrorists are allowed to come back to the valley.and this may include the Mirpuri muslims on ur side also.
> 
> 2)The settled Pakistanis in P-O-K are sent back to their original places
> 
> 3)the areas under Chinese occupation (Shaksgam valley,Aksai Chin) are returned to India so that referendum can be conducted there.
> 
> 
> 
> The referendum willl be conducted wen all the above UNSC mandated conditions are met.
> And mind u after all the wars fought,millions of lives lost on both sides even if the referendum is conducted do u think any of the side will agree to it...? -NO- in my opinion.
> And it is not just land at stake..its the National honor(though it shuldn be) thats at stake.
> 
> The only realistic option that both nations can sell to their respective ppl of not succumbing to the other is converting the LOC into IB.
> and in my opinion it will ultimately burn down to that.



also Pak should be ready to take back 150 muslims living in india, because at that time this was the case. 
imagine 320 million people living on that tiny patch of land ...lol....


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## Jackdaws

The article is from a Pakistani source - The Friday Times. Instead of the usual plebiscite-UN-you are the aggressor rant, shouldn't Pakistanis here be concerned that they have successfully alienated the people in Pak-administered Kashmir? Most terror groups you created have turned on you - except the likes of Lashkar and Jaish. Guess what buddy - in 10 years, they will turn on you too. Hard as you try, India is not going to agree. Heck, if the likes of Lashkar had adopted Satyagraha or non-violent forms of protest, the Indian public would even have had sympathy with them and perhaps forced the Indian govt. to consider - but with the method adopted to "force" India - Pakistan has sealed Kashmir's fate.


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## Canaan

billi said:


> this is a hurtful post to indians. think about your prophet first and then talk about what gandhi did or did not



I agree it was uncalled for, but actually it is not entirely true what you are referring to, Aisha was neither 9 or 6 as islamophobes tend to say, but in her early 20s when she married Muhamed (pbuh) according to the most current research

but just ignore him...

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## ice_man

Prometheus said:


> *kashmir is integral part of India*
> end of dispute
> 
> you are rite by saying that India doesnot want to resolve Kashmir issue.
> India also dont want to resolve other issues like saichen, water, sir chreek etc.
> 
> because India is not gonna benefit from this.
> pakistan is gonna be in gain not India





well kashmir is not your integral part and NEHRU admitted to it! so your theory doesn't have legs to support it!

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## SEAL

Those who are saying Kashmir is part of India must watch this debate "Its time to give Freedom to Kashmir's" they say Pakistan zindabad Hindustan Murdabad.

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## mr42O

Dr.Evil said:


> The only dispute we have is about the * kashmir under illegal occupation of pakistan*, As soon as that part is given back to India then we have no dispute.



Can you tell me how Pakistan and India was divided ? Areas with most muslims will go to Pakistan and other will go to India right ? 99&#37; of Kashmiries were muslims but Mahraja was hindu. He betrayed his ppl and gave Kashmir to India. When Pakistan relasied that they sent there troops and captured area which is called Azad Kashmir now. UN asked bother countries to stop war and let kashmiri ppl decied. Both countries agreed on that term but since that India has not done what they promised.

So i am woundring why India agreed on UN terms if it was there area ? Why UN let Pakistan keep Azad Kashmir and asked for election which India rejecting now. What are u afriad of ? After 60 year Kashmiri dont call them Indias. 

Why India is interrested in Kashmir ? Its is because they want to controll water noting else.

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## Marxist

mr42O said:


> Can you tell me how Pakistan and India was divided ? Areas with most muslims will go to Pakistan and other will go to India right ? 99% of Kashmiries were muslims but Mahraja was hindu. He betrayed his ppl and gave Kashmir to India. When Pakistan relasied that they sent there troops and captured area which is called Azad Kashmir now. UN asked bother countries to stop war and let kashmiri ppl decied. Both countries agreed on that term but since that India has not done what they promised.
> 
> So i am woundring why India agreed on UN terms if it was there area ? Why UN let Pakistan keep Azad Kashmir and asked for election which India rejecting now. What are u afriad of ? After 60 year Kashmiri dont call them Indias.
> 
> Why India is interrested in Kashmir ? Its is because they want to controll water noting else.



India agreed UN term in 1947...UN asked for election in both Kashmir and asked pakistan to withdraw its army from kashmir
United Nations Security Council Resolution 47 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
which Pakistan didnt done....
now that resolution is expired...so no need to implement that

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## billi

Canaan said:


> I agree it was uncalled for, but actually it is not entirely true what you are referring to, Aisha was neither 9 or 6 as islamophobes tend to say, but in her early 20s when she married Muhamed (pbuh) according to the most current research
> 
> but just ignore him...


no i did not mean that. I meant that if you think about what the prophet taught, you would not insult others in such a crude way. I put it wrongly

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## billi

mr42O said:


> Can you tell me how Pakistan and India was divided ? Areas with most muslims will go to Pakistan and other will go to India right ? 99% of Kashmiries were muslims but Mahraja was hindu. He betrayed his ppl and gave Kashmir to India. When Pakistan relasied that they sent there troops and captured area which is called Azad Kashmir now. UN asked bother countries to stop war and let kashmiri ppl decied. Both countries agreed on that term but since that India has not done what they promised.
> 
> So i am woundring why India agreed on UN terms if it was there area ? Why UN let Pakistan keep Azad Kashmir and asked for election which India rejecting now. What are u afriad of ? After 60 year Kashmiri dont call them Indias.
> 
> Why India is interrested in Kashmir ? Its is because they want to controll water noting else.



in that case if you invade a lan because it has more muslims, why did you not invade afghanistan and capture it?


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## jagjitnatt

mr42O said:


> Can you tell me how Pakistan and India was divided ?



The *territory *wasn't divided based on religion. The *people *were divided based on religion.

A separate state was carved out for the muslim majority. Any muslim who wanted to join the muslim majority nation was free to join them. But they had to move to the* allotted territory only* and had to leave their current real estate here no matter how many centuries they resided there. If Kashmiris wanted to join Pakistan, they could have joined them, but they did not.

*You can not claim territory because people living on them are muslims. You can claim only people.*

If that is the case, I can start claiming Canada since half the population there is sikh. 

You were given two states to live in. That is where you have to fit in.

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## dabong1

Kashmir is an integral part of pakistan.......all of kashmir should be part of pakistan.


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## Canaan

billi said:


> no i did not mean that. I meant that if you think about what the prophet taught, you would not insult others in such a crude way. I put it wrongly



my apologies then, I misunderstood your reply


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## Chappal Chor

dabong1 said:


> Kashmir is an integral part of pakistan.......all of kashmir should be part of pakistan.



oh yeah we have kept it in silver plate for you come and have it.......

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## Windjammer

Chappal Chor said:


> oh yeah we have kept it in silver plate for you come and have it.......



If you had then your politicians wouldn't have once said,

Kashmir is bleeding India.


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## Mauryan

kugga said:


> I don't know why india is so reluctant to resolve the issue its just simple hold referendum and the let the kashmiris decide what they want..... bs that's it



Do pakistan willing to do the same with blochistan?Letting the people there decide the fate of the state?

Do China willing to do the same with tibet and Xinjiang?

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## Chappal Chor

Windjammer said:


> If you had then your politicians wouldn't have once said,
> 
> Kashmir is bleeding India.



unfortunately the bleeders forgot that the sword was two sided and we indians also learnt how to use the sword. so kashmir is double impact sword for you now. 

our policy cant be simple as that come and have it if you have guts dont start with the rant ..............."one day we will...............". and if you want proxy wars well you know how many blasts in India after ur 26/11 and how many in Pakistan.... but we are not involved yet.  you wanna play lets play

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## KS

Windjammer said:


> If you had then your politicians wouldn't have once said,
> 
> Kashmir is bleeding India.



Who said it....? Even if he had said it would have been in the 90 s wen militancy was at its peak.
Now actully its the IA which is bleeding the hell out of the terrorists.

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## Windjammer

Chappal Chor said:


> unfortunately the bleeders forgot that the sword was two sided and we indians also learnt how to use the sword. so kashmir is double impact sword for you now.
> 
> our policy cant be simple as that come and have it if you have guts dont start with the rant ..............."one day we will...............". and if you want proxy wars well you know how many blasts in India after ur 26/11 and how many in Pakistan.... but we are not involved yet.  you wanna play lets play



Talk the talk but who is going to walk the walk. 
One incident in Mumbai and the drama queens take the center stage, the resolute Pakistan nation facing it squarely, the serpent's head has been squashed and God help the tail end rats.


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## Chappal Chor

Windjammer said:


> Talk the talk but who is going to walk the walk.
> One incident in Mumbai and the drama queens take the center stage, the resolute Pakistan nation facing it squarely, the serpent's head has been squashed and God help the tail end rats.



yes it takes the center stage because we all care for our people none of your nations people have the right to kill the Indians by any means. 

the serpents head may have been squashed but every third day the newspaper is filled with new snakelets at your end. 

it was your game but you forgot others also can learn the rules of the game  now live with that

if you wanna have kashmir come have it if you have balls.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Chappal Chor said:


> yes it takes the center stage because we all care for our people none of *your nations people have the right to kill the Indians by any means. *
> the serpents head may have been squashed but every third day the *newspaper is filled with new snakelets at your end.*
> 
> *it was your game but you forgot others also can learn the rules of the game  now live with that
> 
> if you wanna have kashmir come have it if you have balls*.



Our nation isnt killing nobody its the indian occupation thts killing kashmiris and sucking there blood.
Wat snakes are u talking about?the dead ttp or bla supported by india?
About forgeting the game:
We started no game buddy u started it with mukti bhani in 71 and LTTE in srilanka......
i heard sikh and kashmiri freedom fighters have strated to rise again?wat about naxalities.

ROFL at ur last sentence...........do u have any?
Dostana is from indian film industry right...takes its toll on national thinking and mentality.
T.C

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## Chappal Chor

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Our nation isnt killing nobody its the indian occupation thts killing kashmiris and sucking there blood.
> Wat snakes are u talking about?the dead ttp or bla supported by india?
> About forgeting the game:
> We started no game buddy u started it with mukti bhani in 71 and LTTE in srilanka......
> i heard sikh and kashmiri freedom fighters have strated to rise again?wat about naxalities.
> 
> ROFL at ur last sentence...........do u have any?
> Dostana is from indian film industry right...takes its toll on national thinking and mentality.
> T.C



Oh ajmal kasab was from mars i guess. or another fanboy of ajmal kasab is amar singh

Oh see within your nation you will find the snakelets. was mukti bahini a terrorist organization. if yes sources place
let them rise and they will be crushed again. we are not using any army still within our own land 

Dostana is from Indian movie industry but lol seems pakistan has higher viewership for Indian movies.  as far as national thinking and mentality is concerned we all know whose national thinking had been " one day kashmir banega pakistan................." look around kashmir is already part of India.

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## Windjammer

Chappal Chor said:


> yes it takes the center stage because we all care for our people none of your nations people have the right to kill the Indians by any means.


I am sure the Indians are even more efficient at that as in Gujarat.


> the serpents head may have been squashed but every third day the newspaper is filled with new snakelets at your end.


You mean the likes of Aaj Tak, the rest seem to be filled with the Maoist spectaculars, suppose for you that is irrelevant.


> it was your game but you forgot others also can learn the rules of the game  now live with that


Still your do daz are running around like headless chicken


> if you wanna have kashmir come have it if you have balls.


Firstly this is a prestigious Pakistan public forum not your typical BR, so refrain from bringing your table manners here, beside last i read was that Eunuch were in consideration hence the term doesn't even apply to your side.

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## Chappal Chor

Windjammer said:


> I am sure the Indians are even more efficient at that as in Gujarat.


when you guys will learn to not to interfere in other nations and get screwed. Hope so you there are ample examples for that. what we do in india is our concern. none of yours. before you start your rant for muslim brotherhood first stop killing your own muslim brothers or go to somalia or wage a war against US or Israel.



Windjammer said:


> You mean the likes of Aaj Tak, the rest seem to be filled with the Maoist spectaculars, suppose for you that is irrelevant.


Maoist again are Indian internal issues which has yet nothing to do with pakistan. if you guys wanna try on this front try it. expect the returns with interest. hope you understand our loyalty program to return favors with interest.


Windjammer said:


> Still your do daz are running around like headless chicken


yeah and you are running around to proove that being pakistani does not mean being terrorist.


Windjammer said:


> Firstly this is a prestigious Pakistan public forum not your typical BR, so refrain from bringing your table manners here, beside last i read was that Eunuch were in consideration hence the term doesn't even apply to your side.



whats so offending in that. if you have guts come and have it. didnt you tried in the past. hook or by crook it continues to be the integral and inseparable part of India. If you wanna separate your welcome but do expect returns with interest from our programs. lol we considered eunuchs and you guys are not able to take your land even from them. lol what pathetic condition are you in.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Chappal Chor said:


> Oh ajmal kasab was from mars i guess. or another fanboy of ajmal kasab is amar singh



So hows the state of Pakistan involved in tht as u say?
In tht way theIndian state or indian army is responsiable for the samjhota express and providing explosives to terrorists?




> Oh see within your nation you will find the snakelets. was mukti bahini a terrorist organization. if yes sources place



Go and google it.You will find how india created mukti bhani by indian authors.
Im not responsiable for spoon feeding ur people.



> let them rise and they will be crushed again. we are not using any army still within our own land



Arent you?





> R u just ignorant for playing stupid for the sake of ur ego?
> Dostana is from Indian movie industry but lol seems pakistan has higher viewership for Indian movies.




We like to see wats the nature of our bordering countries...
I hope u found something for urself in the new shop tht opened in ur capital 



> as far as national thinking and mentality is concerned we all know whose national thinking had been " *one day kashmir banega pakistan*



Inshallah and thanks for saying tht urself.



> ................." look around kashmir is already part of India.



 Thts why azad kashmir is in Pakistan and indian occupied kashmiris are shouting in streets of sri nagar
LONG LING PAKISTAN
HUM HAIEN PAKISTAN
DEATH TO .......


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## Aslan

Mauryan said:


> Do pakistan willing to do the same with blochistan?Letting the people there decide the fate of the state?
> 
> Do China willing to do the same with tibet and Xinjiang?



I wonder after making a statement such as above that you would be thinking the below!







And the below statement is what I thought of your origional statement about Baluchistan.






So rather then acting like stupid, make some sense. And read on to the history of why is Kashmir considered what it is. And why Baluchistan dont fall into the same.


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## billi

khalidali said:


> I wonder after making a statement such as above that you would be thinking the below!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the below statement is what I thought of your origional statement about Baluchistan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So rather then acting like stupid, make some sense. And read on to the history of why is Kashmir considered what it is. And why Baluchistan dont fall into the same.



then why is pak sending terrorist to IOK , but india not sending terrorist to p/o/k

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## Aslan

billi said:


> then why is pak sending terrorist to IOK , but india not sending terrorist to p/o/k



And the relevance of your comments to mine were! khair forget it. And if india is not sending any thing into Azad Kashmir that is, they are very well busy in other parts of Pakistan. So dont bother!


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## Chappal Chor

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> So hows the state of Pakistan involved in tht as u say?
> In tht way theIndian state or indian army is responsiable for the samjhota express and providing explosives to terrorists?



samjhota express case was within india and needs to executed within Indian premises. no one attacked from India within Pakistan. so both are diffrent cases. but in case of 26/11 people from your side crossed over to India and waged a war.




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Go and google it.You will find how india created mukti bhani by indian authors.
> Im not responsiable for spoon feeding ur people.



Do google operation searchlight and ask any Bangladeshi. it was your mistake altogether. again is it banned organization?




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Arent you?



any sources. it is special forces not army.



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> We like to see wats the nature of our bordering countries...
> I hope u found something for urself in the new shop tht opened in ur capital



are you jealous that you dont have one of those shops. if you need something let us know we will ship it for you.
nopes actually i am straight but dont have problems with gays neither we indians discriminate them. not do we consider it as a social evil. 



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Inshallah and thanks for saying tht urself.



your welcome. keep trying and keep dreaming. ahem ahem.....
1947: insha alaah kashmir banega pakistan
2010: insha alaah kashmir banega pakistan




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Thts why azad kashmir is in Pakistan and indian occupied kashmiris are shouting in streets of sri nagar


and still it continues to be part of india. some one has been trying for past 63 years but still got **** in hands. 




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> LONG LING PAKISTAN
> HUM HAIEN PAKISTAN
> DEATH TO .......



jai Hind
Jai Bharat
Death to ....................

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## Windjammer

Chappal Chor said:


> when you guys will learn to not to interfere in other nations and get screwed. Hope so you there are ample examples for that. what we do in india is our concern. none of yours. before you start your rant for muslim brotherhood first stop killing your own muslim brothers or go to somalia or wage a war against US or Israel.



Let me beat you with your own stick, what's was your business in East Pakistan, and now in Balochistan. We have you deep in Afghanistan, it's just going to be a case of turkey shoot.
There are Muslims all over the world but i guess you guys have no where to go. 


> Maoist again are Indian internal issues which has yet nothing to do with pakistan. if you guys wanna try on this front try it. expect the returns with interest. hope you understand our loyalty program to return favors with interest.


 We waited a whole year in 2002 but you people had no will or wisdom.


> yeah and you are running around to proove that being pakistani does not mean being terrorist.


Albeit you are now resorting to your Indian mentality and are talking in general however i will not lower myself to your sorry state level and remind you that unlike India it's not Pakistan feeling like a bewildered whore at every world class ceremony.


> whats so offending in that. if you have guts come and have it. didnt you tried in the past. hook or by crook it continues to be the integral and inseparable part of India. If you wanna separate your welcome but do expect returns with interest from our programs. lol we considered you eunuchs and you guys are not able to take your land even from them. lol what pathetic condition are you in.


In your usual frivolous manner you are not even getting the point.
However like an empty pot you make a lot of noise but as they say, barking dogs seldom bite, try to comprehend a point before habitually pressing the reply button.


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## Chappal Chor

Windjammer said:


> Let me beat you with your own stick, what's was your business in East Pakistan, and now in Balochistan. We have you deep in Afghanistan, it's just going to be a case of turkey shoot.


It was you who started attack failed bombing Indian air stipes. No where mukti bahini is a banned organization. secondly it was your refugees entering India. there are no refugee pressure on pakistan or any other pressure.

Try out in Afghanistan. Last time there was a blast in front of Indian embassy and there were news for next 1 week for blasts in Pakistan. 



Windjammer said:


> There are Muslims all over the world but i guess you guys have no where to go.



so sorry but we ourself have the third highest muslim population and we have everywhere to go and that too in our favor. wanna know the Indian trade with Islamic counties or the foreign relations of India ranging from your saudi arabia to afghanistan.



Windjammer said:


> We waited a whole year in 2002 but you people had no will or wisdom.



Unfortunately there were no goals when we knew some one who is already going down the drain why to waste our resources. Uncle Sam and Afghan brothers already did enough for you. Already declining economy and then mass mobilization did the trick for us. . we did not fired a shot you lost on the international and economic front and we were projected as peaceful nation. 




Windjammer said:


> Albeit you are now resorting to your Indian mentality and are talking in general however i will not lower myself to your sorry state level and remind you that unlike India it's not Pakistan feeling like a bewildered whore at every world class ceremony.


so sorry but it is pakistan which is considered as international migraine and somalia of asia not India. 



Windjammer said:


> In your usual frivolous manner you are not even getting the point.
> However like an empty pot you make a lot of noise but as they say, barking dogs seldom bite, try to comprehend a point before habitually pressing the reply button.


correct barking dogs seldom bite we know that. and some times when they try to bite they loose their ***. hope you remember bangladesh.

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## psychedelic_renegade

and one more thread is going down the drain, ironically this forum symbolize Kashmir problem. There is no feasible solution at all, at least can't see one in near future.


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## Areesh

Chappal Chor said:


> It was you who started attack failed bombing Indian air stipes. No where mukti bahini is a banned organization. secondly it was your refugees entering India. there are no refugee pressure on pakistan or any other pressure.
> 
> Try out in Afghanistan. Last time there was a blast in front of Indian embassy and there were news for next 1 week for blasts in Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> so sorry but we ourself have the third highest muslim population and we have everywhere to go and that too in our favor. wanna know the Indian trade with Islamic counties or the foreign relations of India ranging from your saudi arabia to afghanistan.
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately there were no goals when we knew some one who is already going down the drain why to waste our resources. Uncle Sam and Afghan brothers already did enough for you. Already declining economy and then mass mobilization did the trick for us. . we did not fired a shot you lost on the international and economic front and we were projected as peaceful nation.
> 
> 
> so sorry but it is Pakistan which is considered as international migraine and somalia of asia not India.
> 
> correct barking dogs seldom bite we know that. and some times when they try to bite they loose their ***. hope you remember bangladesh.





> Try out in Afghanistan. Last time there was a blast in front of Indian embassy and there were news for next 1 week for blasts in Pakistan.



Get some life buddy. If you are an adherent of "Shining" India try to shine your soul as well.

Afghanistan is going to be a slaughter house for many like you dear. Can't you see that your embassy in Kabul has to stop it's services for some time because of those blasts. We would make it permanent. About blasts in Pakistan make a check how many blasts this year in Pakistan during this period and how many blasts last year. You will see the difference.




> Unfortunately there were no goals when we knew some one who is already going down the drain why to waste our resources.



And even after that you lost 40 soldiers just in accidents during that foolish attempt to attack us.




> Uncle Sam and Afghan brothers already did enough for you.




Lollzzz illusion on it's top. Live in your wet dreams buddy. We know how to handle these two You and your country isn't genius enough to understand it.



> we did not fired a shot you lost on the international and economic front and we were projected as peaceful nation.




In you dreams kid. You lost 40 soldiers without firing a single bullet. 




> so sorry but it is Pakistan which is considered as international migraine and somalia of asia not India.



And even after that America needs us to take another step in this region. Keep listening to Indian media. It will benefit us.



> correct barking dogs seldom bite we know that. and some times when they try to bite they loose their ***. hope you remember bangladesh.



And hope you remember Pani Pat. It is good to see Indians living under nostalgia of 1971. It is alway good to hit the enemy with surprise. And you guys are in the same condition.


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## Chappal Chor

Areesh said:


> Get some life buddy. If you are an adherent of "Shining" India try to shine your soul as well.
> 
> Afghanistan is going to be a slaughter house for many like you dear. Can't you see that your embassy in Kabul has to stop it's services for some time because of those blasts. We would make it permanent. About blasts in Pakistan make a check how many blasts this year in Pakistan during this period and how many blasts last year. You will see the difference.



and it started again. right?
how many blast in Pakistan. how many in India? no investment no returns.




Areesh said:


> And even after that you lost 40 soldiers just in accidents during that foolish attempt to attack us.


wasnt your glorified larger then life army. 






Areesh said:


> Lollzzz illusion on it's top. Live in your wet dreams buddy. We know how to handle these two You and your country isn't genius enough to understand it.



we know how you are handling. selling the entire nation for some $$. 




Areesh said:


> In you dreams kid. You lost 40 soldiers without firing a single bullet.



dont worry we have 1.3 billion remaining for you.





Areesh said:


> And even after that America needs us to take another step in this region. Keep listening to Indian media. It will benefit us.



feeling proud of being an american puppet. lol imagine what will happen when they are gone and their interest achieved.. after all we are the market for them.




Areesh said:


> And hope you remember Pani Pat. It is good to see Indians living under nostalgia of 1971. It is alway good to hit the enemy with surprise. And you guys are in the same condition.



oh was it pakistan in panipat. before you start your rant about being muslims hope you did not forgot 


almost equal number of muslims here
along with that 4 times hindus here
khalis warriors of khalsa aka sikhs here
and then christians
[/QUOTE]

so no being muslim advantage it is already nullified.

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## KS

@chappal chor:

Ripping apart these poor guys huh...?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Mauryan said:


> ?*Do pakistan willing to do the same with blochistan?Letting the people there decide the fate of the state*
> 
> Do China willing to do the same with tibet and Xinjiang?



Is balouchistan a disputed territory?hell me and other other balouchis should convince u?lol
U guys r feeding on indian media b.s.


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## Areesh

Chappal Chor said:


> and it started again. right?
> how many blast in Pakistan. how many in India? no investment no returns.
> 
> 
> 
> wasnt your glorified larger then life army.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> we know how you are handling. selling the entire nation for some $$.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dont worry we have 1.3 billion remaining for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> feeling proud of being an american puppet. lol imagine what will happen when they are gone and their interest achieved.. after all we are the market for them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oh was it pakistan in panipat. before you start your rant about being muslims hope you did not forgot
> 
> 
> almost equal number of muslims here
> along with that 4 times hindus here
> khalis warriors of khalsa aka sikhs here
> and then christians






> how many blast in Pakistan. how many in India? no investment no returns.



No dear it has stopped. Check your record again.  And as we have stopped blasts we would reverse the equation for you. You might see many things in India too. Just on your request.





> wasnt your glorified larger then life army.



Congrats on your policy to kill your 40 soldiers with a worthless campaign. Be proud of it.





> we know how you are handling. selling the entire nation for some $$.



Lolzzz. As I said you don't have the maturity to know what is strategic and global policies. We haven't sold anything. We have everything intact.





> dont worry we have 1.3 billion remaining for you.



And we have many things for those 1.3 billion soldiers. In fact check again how many of those 1.3 billion would be present in the war zone. You might have to decrease your numbers.



> feeling proud of being an american puppet. lol imagine what will happen when they are gone and their interest achieved.. after all we are the market for them.



Lolzzz. American puppet and Indian. Think again buddy. We still have many assets in this region. No worries. And yes you are the market for them. Don't ask which market.




> oh was it pakistan in panipat. before you start your rant about being muslims hope you did not forgot



I was just telling you that we both have many wars between us. Before 1947 and after 1947. You won 1 we won many.



> almost equal number of muslims here



And that panipat was also beneficial for those muslims also. Many of them are muslims because of such panipats. More panipats means more benefits for them.



> so no being muslim advantage it is already nullified.



Panipats are of mutual benefit. So advantage is still there.


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## Windjammer

Chappal Chor said:


> It was you who started attack failed bombing Indian air stipes. No where mukti bahini is a banned organization. secondly it was your refugees entering India. there are no refugee pressure on pakistan or any other pressure.


Height of stupidity is how you can be described, do some home work before considering your self worthy of anything. 



> Try out in Afghanistan. Last time there was a blast in front of Indian embassy and there were news for next 1 week for blasts in Pakistan.


 Why else are you running with your tail between legs. we were hoping to see 200,000 Indian soldiers in Afghanistan. Guess there is no appetite left in you guys. 




> so sorry but we ourself have the third highest muslim population and we have everywhere to go and that too in our favor. wanna know the Indian trade with Islamic counties or the foreign relations of India ranging from your saudi arabia to afghanistan.


We also know our Muslim brotherhood is feeding the dirt poor Indian laborers , makes you proud does it. 



> Unfortunately there were no goals when we knew some one who is already going down the drain why to waste our resources. Uncle Sam and Afghan brothers already did enough for you. Already declining economy and then mass mobilization did the trick for us. . we did not fired a shot you lost on the international and economic front and we were projected as peaceful nation.



Rather than the goals, the drama queens didn't have any will to fight, the brinkmanship didn't work and you ended up in a humiliating withdraw, shame for the so called poor man's super power.  


> so sorry but it is pakistan which is considered as international migraine and somalia of asia not India.


 Loonies may play their arm pit music to amuse themselves, however,
What really counts is you being labelled as the sick man of Asia by a superpower. What never heard it ? well you are being told now.


> correct barking dogs seldom bite we know that. and some times when they try to bite they loose their ***. hope you remember bangladesh.


And we are also witnessing the very same Bangladesh is giving you a bloody nose, who is having the last laugh.


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## Windjammer

Karthic Sri said:


> @chappal chor:
> 
> Ripping apart these poor guys huh...?



Let's hope you both survive that long to witness how it should be done,
In the mean time keep rubbing each other up the wrong way.

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## KS

Areesh said:


> No dear it has stopped. Check your record again. And as we have stopped blasts we would reverse the equation for you. You might see many things in India too. Just on your request.


As mentioned before after the Mumbai attacks there was a record number of suicide blasts in Pakistan and after every attack on Indian consulates there has been retaliatory bombings in Pakistani cities and after some time it subsides..
Dont u see the pattern..?




Areesh said:


> Congrats on your policy to kill your 40 soldiers with a worthless campaign. Be proud of it.



yeah we r proud of our soldiers..Btw dont u see the similarity of the above mentioned incident with PNS Ghazi..? 




Areesh said:


> Lolzzz. As I said you don't have the maturity to know what is strategic and global policies. We haven't sold anything. We have everything intact.



Yeah yeah we know....how Mushy developed cold feet and left ur best friend(Taliban) out in the cold just aftre one phone call from Busy.gr8 strategic policies btw.





Areesh said:


> And we have many things for those 1.3 billion soldiers. In fact check again how many of those 1.3 billion would be present in the war zone. You might have to decrease your numbers.



How much ever u decrease they will still be greater than the 160 million odd in ur country.




Areesh said:


> Lolzzz. American puppet and Indian. Think again buddy. We still have many assets in this region. No worries. And yes you are the market for them. Don't ask which market.



assests..? yeah the whole world knows of ur assets..LeT,JuD,JeM...
gr8 assest btw.  





Areesh said:


> I was just telling you that we both have many wars between us. Before 1947 and after 1947. You won 1 we won many.



After 1947 4 wars and in them 2 decisive victories for us(71,99) and two stalemates but India in a better stategic position(48,65)

Did Pakistan exist before 1947..? thats news to me..

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## KS

Windjammer said:


> Let's hope you both survive that long to witness how it should be done,




here comes the wizard of Oz with his crystal ball.


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## Choppers

*Doodh Mangoge To Kheer denge ,Kashmir Mangoge To Cheeer Denge..*

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## karan.1970

billi said:


> also Pak should be ready to take back 150 muslims living in india, because at that time this was the case.
> imagine 320 million people living on that tiny patch of land ...lol....



Dude.. Who are you to decide to move Indian Muslims to Pakistan. They are as much the citizens of India as you are.. Actually more as they live in India. So stick to the point. This debate has nothing to do with the religion..

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## karan.1970

dabong1 said:


> Kashmir is an integral part of pakistan.......all of kashmir should be part of pakistan.



Kashmir is an integral part of India.......all of kashmir should be part of India

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## Windjammer

Karthic Sri said:


> here comes the wizard of Oz with his crystal ball.



And the cumbersome drama queen is here to amuse us.

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## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> Talk the talk but who is going to walk the walk.
> One incident in Mumbai and the drama queens take the center stage, the resolute Pakistan nation facing it squarely, the serpent's head has been squashed and God help the tail end rats.



Don't count your chickens as yet. They still have to cross the road 

Dont think the head is gone as yet. If nothing else the reach seems be expanding. The last thing you want to do is to underestimate these SOBs


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## karan.1970

Choppers said:


> *Doodh Mangoge To Kheer denge ,Kashmir Mangoge To Cheeer Denge..*



My fav line of all times 

Saw the movie on one of the channels yesterday. I was in splits thinking what would happen if some of the members on this board saw that movie..Some TV sets would certainly be history..


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## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> Don't count your chickens as yet. They still have to cross the road
> 
> Dont think the head is gone as yet. If nothing else the reach seems be expanding. The last thing you want to do is to underestimate these SOBs



The irony is that you will indeed hear even when a cracker goes off in down town Lahore but the other side of the coin is seldom exposed which is understandable since it's no publicity stunt.
For example, did you even hear that yesterday, in an air strike over 35 scumbags were wasted. As for them expanding, albeit i am not holding my breath but we are not hearing of the suicide attacks as regular as in past. The dilemma is that the Afghan border is not being monitored effectively from the other side.


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## KS

Windjammer said:


> And the cumbersome drama queen is here to amuse us.



I am not here to amuse u..but to admit the truth rather, im getting amused at ur silly antics.



@ anyone knowing Hindi..



Choppers said:


> *Doodh Mangoge To Kheer denge ,Kashmir Mangoge To Cheeer Denge..*



meaning..?


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## RobbieS

Windjammer said:


> . The dilemma is that the Afghan border is not being monitored effectively from the other side.



Curiously, we say the same about the Kashmir border! It just ain't monitored effectively from the other side.


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## Windjammer

Karthic Sri said:


> I am not here to amuse u..but to admit the truth rather, im getting amused at ur silly antics.



Comming from the Horse's mouth, i am sure you live by it.

When people find it hard to digest, things seem silly to them. 

Then again, your kind thrive in it.


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## Windjammer

RobbieS said:


> Curiously, we say the same about the Kashmir border! It just ain't monitored effectively from the other side.



Curiosity killed the cat but then again you say the same about sea lanes.


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## RobbieS

Windjammer said:


> Curiosity killed the cat but then again you say the same about sea lanes.



Naah, not the sea lanes. Just one special boat that your sleuths helped train and sail towards our coast. Oh, btw your experts say they were all Sikhs. Silly me, didn't notice from the videos.


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## riju78

Karthic Sri said:


> I am not here to amuse u..but to admit the truth rather, im getting amused at ur silly antics.
> 
> 
> 
> @ anyone knowing Hindi..
> 
> 
> 
> meaning..?


Ask for milk, will give u porridge. Ask for kashmir, will rip u apart. Quote from a rather silly film maa tujhe salaam


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## Windjammer

Choppers said:


> *Doodh Mangoge To Kheer denge ,Kashmir Mangoge To Cheeer Denge..*



Here is one better,

Kashmir Banega Pakistan, Matam karega Hindustan.

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## Windjammer

RobbieS said:


> Naah, not the sea lanes. Just one special boat that your sleuths helped train and sail towards our coast. Oh, btw your experts say they were all Sikhs. Silly me, didn't notice from the videos.



So much for the blue water navy,

BTW, your experts claim there were 12, some how only one who happens to be in all the images survived.
Did they bury or BURN the others.


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## RobbieS

Windjammer said:


> Here is one better,
> 
> Kashmir Banega Pakistan, Matam karega Hindustan.



What? No Ghazwa-e-Hind?


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## KS

Windjammer said:


> Here is one better,
> 
> Kashmir Banega Pakistan, Matam karega Hindustan.



U guys have been crying hoarse the same thing from 1947...But no development nor have been able gain even an inch of our territory....rather we gained Siachen in 1984...


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## RobbieS

Windjammer said:


> So much for the blue water navy,
> 
> BTW, your experts claim there were 12, some how only one who happens to be in all the images survived.
> Did they bury or BURN the others.



Really? Didn't hear that. Maybe 12 were originally trained by ISI but 2 of them saw through the facade and escaped the Jihadi assembly line.


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## dabong1

We might as well sort the kashmir issue out between ourselves quickly,before the US makes a base there or something.
I thnk from the last some many years the two govt have reached some sort of consensus on kashmir and its just a matter of fine tuning and implementation that is left.


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## KS

dabong1 said:


> I thnk from the last some many years the two govt have reached some sort of consensus on kashmir and its just a matter of fine tuning and implementation that is left.



Its at these times that i dont envy the position of these diplomats/politicians...
U have to find a perfectly acceptable solution for all knowing fully well that even 1 wrong step they r finished for their life i their respective countries.

nd the best solution is wat Manmohan said ...

*"Dont redraw those lines - just make them irrelevant"*.....

U get to keep urs..while we get to keep ours......but visa-less travel for Kashmiris on both sides,resettling of those who r currently refugees etc.


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## Rafael

Choppers said:


> *Doodh Mangoge To Kheer denge ,Kashmir Mangoge To Cheeer Denge..*




Kashmir ko to ek din hum Hindustan se todein gey
Ziaada bak bak ki to Delhi ko bhi nahi choreing gey 

Sorry i couldn't resist, it was so tempting!!


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## dabong1

username said:


> You have misunderstood, I do not want to know the reason for their fighting. I was asking about the feasibility of this approach based on logical arguments.
> 
> when I said feasibility and morality, I was talking about the feasibility of this approach and morality of the people who support the terrorists (by not giving their family any benefits have the dead terrorists chosen to be with your army than becoming an infiltrator.... and make use of uneducated/poor people for whatever ulterior motives)...



When you talk about "feasibility" i assume your talking about the feasibility from a pakistani point of view of backing the freedom struggle?
If thats the case then it is totally feasible for pakistan to back a small number of fighters to keep hundreds of thousands indian army pinned down while at the same time on the expenditure side the ratio spent on keeping the indian army in kashmir will be a lot higher then keeping a freedom fighter fighting.
Politically on the international scene the fighting keeps the issue of kashmir as being a nuclear flashpoint firmly in peoples mind and the pressure that goes with finding a settlement.





username said:


> Care to give a link ? care to prove this point ?



And whats going to happen then?....will you suddenly start thinking that there "morally" right?



username said:


> A world of difference, educated and successful people will have a life to live well. But the poor/uneducated people can be manipulated. Such a manipulation should not occur.



I totally agree that lack of eductaion can lead to manipulation but so can revenge or other emotions that can be played up on....nationalistic patriotism is another.


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## gurjot

raheel1 said:


> Kashmir ko to ek din hum Hindustan se todein gey
> Ziaada bak bak ki to Delhi ko bhi nahi choreing gey
> 
> Sorry i couldn't resist, it was so tempting!!



firstly i request u to wake up,i thought u will even capture Washington

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## Hulk

raheel1 said:


> Kashmir ko to ek din hum Hindustan se todein gey
> Ziaada bak bak ki to Delhi ko bhi nahi choreing gey
> 
> Sorry i couldn't resist, it was so tempting!!



Agar dialogue se kuch ho jata to Pakistan world per kabja kar leta. Fact is ek inch nahi le sakte.

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## Rafael

gurjot said:


> firstly i request u to wake up,i thought u will even capture Washington



kiddo go and have some sleep! you need to go to school tomorrow!

---------- Post added at 03:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:34 AM ----------




indianrabbit said:


> Agar dialogue se kuch ho jata to Pakistan world per kabja kar leta. Fact is ek inch nahi le sakte.




Adha kashmir to ley lia hai baaki bhi le lein gey


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## gurjot

raheel1 said:


> kiddo go and have some sleep! you need to go to school tomorrow!
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:34 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Adha kashmir to ley lia hai baaki bhi le lein gey



i dont go school,i go to college.i have already slept.now this is time to wake u up.from last 60 yrs.u r repeating this and got nothing.
u didnt get half dude.


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## Rafael

gurjot said:


> i dont go school,i go to college.i have already slept.now this is time to wake u up.from last 60 yrs.u r repeating this and got nothing.
> u didnt get half dude.




Yes, you need to go to school again if you can't get the humour in my post!


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## gurjot

raheel1 said:


> Yes, you need to go to school again if you can't get the humour in my post!



ok dude if next birth happens as an human,i will definitely go 2 school.
keep urself happy with ur post.and plz use the alarm clocks if u cant wake up.


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## Windjammer

RobbieS said:


> Really? Didn't hear that. Maybe 12 were originally trained by ISI but 2 of them saw through the facade and escaped the Jihadi assembly line.



Gee Wiz, now that is humiliating, if merely two can hold you at bay for two days, imagine what a few thousand could do.
Poor man's super power is at the mercy of some week end warriors.
Consider your self safe in Canada.
Hey, there is always the option of joining the Khalistan movement.


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## Frankenstein

Chappal Chor said:


> unfortunately the bleeders forgot that the sword was two sided and we indians also learnt how to use the sword. so kashmir is double impact sword for you now.
> 
> our policy cant be simple as that come and have it if you have guts dont start with the rant ..............."one day we will...............". and if you want proxy wars well you know how many blasts in India after ur 26/11 and how many in Pakistan.... but we are not involved yet.  you wanna play lets play



You say Pakistan has a hand in 26/11, if its true than see how much damage we can do in so called secure places in india, I bet India cant even cross our seas, if yo think you are so tough then lets play then, but the truth is opposite,


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## Frankenstein

Dr.Evil said:


> The only dispute we have is about the * kashmir under illegal occupation of pakistan*, As soon as that part is given back to India then we have no dispute.



Red Bull gives you wings


----------



## username

dabong1 said:


> When you talk about "feasibility" i assume your talking about the feasibility from a pakistani point of view of backing the freedom struggle?


When I said about feasibility I meant feasibility of taking away Kashmir from India, not just keeping the world's attention, using your so called freedom fighters. 



dabong1 said:


> Politically on the international scene the fighting keeps the issue of kashmir as being a nuclear flashpoint firmly in peoples mind and the pressure that goes with finding a settlement.



I was of the opinion that the Pakistan supports and gives away its own comman man (what I mean by comman man = normal citizen, not a uniformed person) life for gaining Kashmir, never thought this approach is just to keep reminding the world about this problem. And even this keeping the world's attention doesn't seem to give the expected results for you. The world simply says have bilateral talk, nobody comes to mediate at all. Pakistan tried to invite U.S., China for this talk about Kashmir with India but they simply denied. So the world attention does not yield the expected result for you, so why bother sending your own citizen for getting killed accross the border ? 



dabong1 said:


> If thats the case then it is totally feasible for pakistan to back a small number of fighters to keep hundreds of thousands indian army pinned down while at the same time on the *expenditure side the ratio* spent on keeping the indian army in kashmir will be a lot higher then keeping a freedom fighter fighting.


Expenditure ratio ? Never bother this is our country, if we think of checks and balances and leave one part of our land to other country, then the whole nation will loose moral, and that will pave the way for separatists to start operations everywhere, so this is not about check and balance for us. And the main thing is we cannot give our own citizens and thier land to other country for anything, anything at all, so it is not checks and balances for us, it is about protecting our people and their land. You can have your own views that we actually don't protect but we oppress, and I will not argue about that because nobody ever came to any conclusion about that in this forum. I am only interested in knowing whether Pakistan gives the correct respect to its so called freedom fighters, and feasibility of using this approach to take Kashmir away from India. About the feasibility I have got your answer that it is not to take away Kashmir, but Pakistan slays its own Comman Man's life just to keep the world's attention on Kashmir. Only question which is still open is whether Pakistan gives the correct respect to its so called freedom fighters.



dabong1 said:


> And whats going to happen then?....will you suddenly start thinking that there "morally" right?



Yes, please assume good faith, if you prove irrefutably I will surely believe. At present I still think Pakistan is morally bankrupt. 



dabong1 said:


> I totally agree that lack of eductaion can lead to manipulation but so can revenge or other emotions that can be played up on....nationalistic patriotism is another.



Thanks for agreeing with me about the manipulation. May be the terrorists are having a misaligned belief about patriotism and Pakistan manipulates them without giving them their due respects (as in galentary awards, compensation as same as your army gets etc). Pakistan simply manipulates their misplaced patriotism for its own gain without giving anything. This is much more serious than violating someone's civil rights. 

Note :- The misplaced patriotism of the terrorists is our point of view, there is no need for you to refute this, you can simply disagree. The main point of discussion is whether Pakistan really gives them due respects or simply manipulates ? 

I think Pakistan manipulates the uneducated people, and hence it is morally bankrupt.

@MODS :- Somebody has changed my location info and my signature, please look into this, I logged in today only and for the past two days I did not log in, and I today I logged in about 10:30 AM KST.

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## Kabir Panthi

*Kashmir terrorists get pay hike :* 

NEW DELHI: Kashmiri terrorists and refugees from Jammu and Kashmir in *** have both received a pay hike. According to the latest inputs from various agencies, Pakistani authorities are now offering terrorists coming to fight in J&K a monthly salary in the range of Rs 8,000 to Rs 10,000. This is a huge jump from the average pay of Rs 5,000 they were getting earlier.

The reason for this benevolence is not hard to imagine. There has been a drastic drop in violence levels in J&K and militancy needs a desperate revival if the separatist agenda has to continue to grab global attention. The number of terrorists operating in J&K is now hovering around 700, an all-time low since militancy erupted in the state in the late 80s.

The desperation among terror groups is also visible in the return of Furqan, one of the seniormost Lashkar-e-Taiba operatives who had been the group's launch commander based in *** for some years now. He infiltrated into J&K in April-end with a group but the Army was able to intercept them. Furqan is believed to have successfully evaded the Army and entered the state. His return, after more than four years, is being seen as a sign of LeT's desperation to carry out a few sensational attacks.

It is not just the Kashmiri militants who got pay hikes in recent days. Those staying back in refugee camps of *** too have been given increased financial benefits. From Rs 1,800 per month, their financial allowance has gone up to Rs 2,400 a month early this year, sources said.

Thousands of Kashmiri youth have moved across the border to *** in the past two decades for the explicit purpose of becoming trained militants. But many of them have stayed back in refugee maintenance camps run by the Pakistan government, some marrying local girls, and many starting small businesses. There are no clear numbers, but some estimates say as many as 30,000 could be in ***, holding state subject facility cards which grants them certain rights.

While inflation is an obvious reason for the hike in monthly allowance for the refugees, the desire of many of them to return to India may have also been a reason for increasing the allowance, officials speculate. In 2007, when Indian government opened up a liberal surrender policy for Kashmir, almost 150 of them came back. After a year, the policy was tightened, but sources now say that they are looking at revising it. An exodus of these refugees from *** to J&K would hit Pakistan's image, say officials.
josy.joseph@timesgroup.com 


Kashmir terrorists get pay hike - India - The Times of India


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## Chappal Chor

Windjammer said:


> Gee Wiz, now that is humiliating, if merely two can hold you at bay for two days, imagine what a few thousand could do.
> Poor man's super power is at the mercy of some week end warriors.
> Consider your self safe in Canada.
> Hey, there is always the option of joining the Khalistan movement.



Lol and the pipe dream of 1 Pakistani = 10 Indian continues.... good for us. Better research about the rescue operation before commenting.

Hope so that you will give some gallantry award to Kasab once he is dead. if you want we can throw in your side of border wrapped in your national flag for being your martyr


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## Chappal Chor

Frankenstein said:


> You say Pakistan has a hand in 26/11, if its true than see how much damage we can do in so called secure places in india, I bet India cant even cross our seas, if yo think you are so tough then lets play then, but the truth is opposite,



Oh well last time when we crossed your sees sun stopped rising in Karachi for 2 days. Remember


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## Chappal Chor

Areesh said:


> No dear it has stopped. Check your record again. And as we have stopped blasts we would reverse the equation for you. You might see many things in India too. Just on your request.



come on you tried mess in our country and see you were fighting your own people in couple of days. you guys wanted a war you got one  Live with it.





Areesh said:


> Congrats on your policy to kill your 40 soldiers with a worthless campaign. Be proud of it.



I dont think so it was worthless because we were able to add extra $$ to your dwindling economy. Not every war is fought with bullets. Didnt we knew that you will follow the nuclear blast 






Areesh said:


> Lolzzz. As I said you don't have the maturity to know what is strategic and global policies. We haven't sold anything. We have everything intact.



Ok


Areesh said:


> And we have many things for those 1.3 billion soldiers. In fact check again how many of those 1.3 billion would be present in the war zone. You might have to decrease your numbers.



Hope you know that India's 64% population is youth. so that still would be more than what you have as your entire nation.




Areesh said:


> Lolzzz. American puppet and Indian. Think again buddy. We still have many assets in this region. No worries. And yes you are the market for them. Don't ask which market.



Sorry not just Americans your best friend Chinese have also started to realize that in terms of market India has more potential and it is more to gain from India then Pakistan. the world runs on $$





Areesh said:


> I was just telling you that we both have many wars between us. Before 1947 and after 1947. You won 1 we won many.



Oh so pakistan won wars without even existing. now it is getting interesting. and which one did you won care to elaborate. 



Areesh said:


> And that panipat was also beneficial for those muslims also. Many of them are muslims because of such panipats. More panipats means more benefits for them.
> 
> 
> 
> Panipats are of mutual benefit. So advantage is still there.



Lol and Indian muslims will support Pakistanis. thats the biggest joke of the day.

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## Chappal Chor

raheel1 said:


> Kashmir ko to ek din hum Hindustan se todein gey
> Ziaada bak bak ki to Delhi ko bhi nahi choreing gey
> 
> Sorry i couldn't resist, it was so tempting!!



are apna Dhaka to bacha nahi paaye abhi bhi Kashmir chahiye. 

raha delhi are pehle Balochistan aur FATA to bacha lo Unkil se

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## MilesTogo

That is unusual - freedom fighters being hired?


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## Chappal Chor

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> FREE KASHMIR...JUSTICE FOR ALL



yes free your part of Kashmir and give it back. Justice will be served.


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## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> Gee Wiz, now that is humiliating, if merely two can hold you at bay for two days, *imagine what a few thousand could do*.
> Poor man's super power is at the mercy of some week end warriors.



As you say thousands, a figure of 90,000 comes to mind.. Cant place form where though...Was that the number of Pakistani Army folks who surrendered and were captured from Bangladesh in 1971??

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## Rafael

Chappal Chor said:


> are apna Dhaka to bacha nahi paaye abhi bhi Kashmir chahiye.
> 
> raha delhi are pehle Balochistan aur FATA to bacha lo Unkil se



Look who is talking  apna poora desh bacha lo naxals sey phir aa ker yahan tamak toyiaan marna miyaan


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## Rafael

Chappal Chor said:


> Oh well last time when we crossed your sees sun stopped rising in Karachi for 2 days. Remember



and last time we crossed your airspace, sun never rose again in pathankot ever since. remember? your airmen were running like chickens


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## Chappal Chor

raheel1 said:


> Look who is talking  apna poora desh bacha lo naxals sey phir aa ker yahan tamak toyiaan marna miyaan



naxals are our internal problem and majority of us dont consider them threat to the nation but in fact they are threat to government because their war is against the government of India not with the Indian people. Lol you should pray that they dont come to power because they also hate you and then they are communists. hope you understand what i mean....


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## Chappal Chor

raheel1 said:


> and last time we crossed your airspace, sun never rose again in pathankot ever since. remember? your airmen were running like chickens



lol 10 aircrafts on ground was it that great. forgot the attack on sargodha after that.

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## Mallu

dabong1 said:


> Kashmir is an integral part of pakistan.......all of kashmir should be part of pakistan.



Take it Dude
Best of Luck

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## DESERT FIGHTER

karan.1970 said:


> As you say thousands, a figure of 90,000 comes to mind.. Cant place form where though...Was that the number of Pakistani Army folks who surrendered and were captured from Bangladesh in 1971??



Lol ..71 ?
Bengladesh?india?support from USSR?
Still no air dominance
Wat abt 48?Nehru runing to UN for a cease fire?
1965 Begging at tashkent?
Lol face to face looks like u forget to say prayers*?under proxies.
Sing is king *


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Chappal Chor said:


> lol 10 aircrafts on ground was it that great. forgot the attack on sargodha after that.




No we remember Pathankot
And 5 bogeys in under 1 minute
Awesome kills dont u appreciate?
Sargodha?lol
Ohhhh right ur feeding on indian propoganda?
100 plus IAF kills againts PAF>>lol hahahahahhaha


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## satishkumarcsc

Just Rs. 13 million and 750 per month for a kid?..its ridiculous. Hope it gets increased. But something is better than nothing.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Chappal Chor said:


> samjhota express case was within india and needs to executed within Indian premises. no one attacked from India within Pakistan. *so both are diffrent cases*. but in case of 26/11 people from your side crossed over to India and waged a war


.

Pakistanicitizens were killed terrorists respinciable were from ur military?
Indeed its a different case...in S.E indian states officiers were involved and in bombay individuals.




> Do google operation searchlight and ask any Bangladeshi. it was your mistake altogether. again is it banned organization?



Yeah right..google books by indian authors and others how india created mukti bhani terrorist b...

any sources. it is special forces not army.





> are you jealous that you dont have one of those shops. if you need something let us know we will ship it for you.



No im happy for u now.U can buy stuff in ur own vincinity.





> your welcome. keep trying and keep dreaming. ahem ahem.....
> 1947: insha alaah kashmir banega pakistan
> 2010: insha alaah kashmir banega pakistan



48? UN baapu humien bacha ley to 2010 its oursrofl: my chacha is fighting freedom fighters in indian occupied kashmir)




> jai Hind
> Jai Bharat
> Death to ....................



Nope thts not wat kashmiris are sayin?
This is wat theyr sayin
Check it out chor *carefully *


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## Chappal Chor

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Lol ..71 ?
> Bengladesh?india?support from USSR?



Support from US. Oh **** they kicked your back and ran away seeing USSR.



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Still no air dominance


Battles dont win a war? at the end of the day what matters is who won the battle.


Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Wat abt 48?Nehru runing to UN for a cease fire?



And still we hold your kashmir and in 63 years you are not able to take 1 inch of your land.



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> 1965 Begging at tashkent?


 as per you i think you might be beliving that you had yada and yada amount of Indian land and Indians had none.

And you ended up giving everything back....  at the end of the day so who was looser.


Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Lol face to face looks like u forget to say prayers*?under proxies.
> Sing is king *



I dont pray. I do my job. Thats my prayer and thats what my religon tells me to just do my job which is the biggest prayer.

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## Chappal Chor

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> .
> 
> Pakistanicitizens were killed terrorists respinciable were from ur military?
> Indeed its a different case...in S.E indian states officiers were involved and in bombay individuals.



Investigations are going on and it was indians only who found out the conspiracy if you remember.




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> .
> Yeah right..google books by indian authors and others how india created mukti bhani terrorist b...



But still is it banned. it was and it is a legitimate organization. all your created organization are banned.




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> .
> any sources. it is special forces not army.



In October 2009, the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) announced that it was in the final stages of planning the offensive and had received approval from the Union-led government. The Commando Battalion for Resolute Action (COBRA) would take the lead in the operations against Maoist insurgents.[3]




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> .
> 
> No im happy for u now.U can buy stuff in ur own vincinity.



and i am sad that you cant



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> .
> 48? UN baapu humien bacha ley to 2010 its oursrofl: my chacha is fighting freedom fighters in indian occupied kashmir)



so sorry for your loss in advance. any day your chacha would be returning home in body bag. 




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> .
> Nope thts not wat kashmiris are sayin?
> This is wat theyr sayin
> Check it out chor *carefully *
> 
> YouTube - KASHMIRIS shouting LONG LIVE PAKISTAN DEATH TO INDIA
> 
> YouTube - Is Kashmir Part of India - Kashmiri shouting Long Live Pakistan - Death to India
> 
> YouTube - Kashmiri people rise against Indian aggression
> 
> YouTube - Kashmir is drifting from India - Indian Media



so you tube is your source


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Chappal Chor said:


> Support from US. Oh **** they kicked your back and ran away seeing USSR.



Watch ur mouth son.This is not ur home nor ur talking to ur father.
Keep it civilised or face the hammer of web master with a shebang.




> Battles dont win a war? at the end of the day what matters is who won the battle.



Who said we won?
Still we held u in ur shoes....From a civil proxy to support from USSR to being massively out numbered,out gunned and under embargo.



> And still we hold your kashmir and in 63 years you are not able to take *1 inch of your land*.



Thanks for accepting its ours.
India was sub contitnent was occupied for 200 years.
Dont worry.



> as per you i think you might be beliving that you had yada and yada amount of Indian land and Indians had none.




I reffer u to our brother Wind jammers posts reguarding 1965....also dont u indian people and ur govrnment celebrate 65?47 or 62?
iI hope u know why.
Quarter of ur airforce was destroyed as for starters etc etc.



> And you ended up giving everything back....  at the end of the day so who was looser.



 india attacked at night without even properly announcing war according to rules.....Not us.
About losing..why dont u celebrate 65?




> I dont pray. I do my job. Thats my prayer and thats what my religon tells me to just do my job which is the biggest prayer.



Good for u.


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## Kompromat

Chappal Chor said:


> lol 10 aircrafts on ground was it that great. forgot the attack on sargodha after that.



*Let me remind you something too.*


*Wednesday, November 19, 2008
Run  its a 104
*






The loss of four Vampires on the opening day of the 65 War was a major blow to the morale of the IAF and, it was felt in all quarters that something had to be done urgently. A grudge fight was, therefore, planned and the nimble Gnat was chosen as the most suitable fighter. Its small size, good turning ability and fast acceleration were seen to be lethal attributes vis-à-vis PAFs main fighter, the Sabre. A detachment of eight Gnats from Ambala-based No 23 Squadron was flown to Pathankot and Sqn Ldr William Greene was deputed to lead it. Greene had done his Fighter Leaders Course from UK and was busy imparting his air combat skills to the Squadron pilots when the war broke out. The more senior Flight Commander, Sqn Ldr Brij Pal Singh Sikand held no grudge in ceding command of the detachment to Greene, in view of the latters experience. 

Soon after landing at Pathankot on the evening of 2nd September, Greene was told plainly in an Operations brief that the patrolling Sabres had to be tackled at any cost. The plan consisted of four Mystères luring the Sabres, while eight low flying Gnats popped up and pounced from two different directions. While the plan was bold, the large number of aircraft demanded a high order of formation integrity and radio discipline. Also, the operation had to be conducted swiftly since the Gnats limited fuel did not permit a prolonged turning fight. 

As the IAF had expected, the morning of 3rd September saw PAF Combat Air Patrols over Akhnur area. Pak Armys 7 Division had put in a request for air cover while its reinforcing elements forded River Tawi during the offensive against Akhnur. At first light, two Sabres and a Starfighter started a vigil which was continued an hour later by another similar trio. The Sabre pair included Flt Lt Yusuf Ali Khan and Flg Off Abdul Khaliq of No 11 Squadron. The singleton was flown by No 9 Squadrons Flg Off Abbas Mirza, whose schoolboy looks belied his proficiency at handling the aerodynamic wonder that was the F-104 Starfighter. 

After patrolling for a while, the Sabres were warned about four bogeys approaching Akhnur at high altitude. Outnumbered two to one, Yusuf decided to go for them anyway and asked for intercept instructions. Before he could pick contact with the reported bogeys up in the sky, his eyes caught a glimpse of four Gnats zooming from below. Yusuf immediately ordered jettisoning of drop tanks but one of his wingmens tanks did not go. While groping with the switches to sort the problem, Abdul Khaliq lost sight of his Leader and, in effect ended up being a liability. Yusuf, therefore, instructed him to head for home and impulsively decided to handle the complex situation all by himself.

The four Mystères, having apparently lured the patrolling Sabres, turned north and exited the battle area, leaving the Gnats to strike from behind. Led by Greene, the front Gnat section consisted of Flg Off M R Murdeshwar as No 2, Sqn Ldr Sikand as No 3 and Flg Off V S Pathania as No 4. Following instructions of Sqn Ldr Dandapani, the seasoned controller at Amritsar Radar, the Gnat formation continued to look out for the Sabres but to no avail. Yusuf, in the meantime, dove down unnoticed from almost 30,000 ft and without much ado, was able to place his missile sighting reticle on one of the Gnats[1]. A loud growl indicating Sidewinder lock-on was just what Yusuf could have asked for, in this one-versus-many scenario. Ready to press the missile firing button, he was rattled by a series of thuds on his aircraft. Confounded at what could have gone wrong at the vital moment, he looked back only to see a pair of Gnats behind him! The Gnats that were in front, meanwhile, broke to the left, obviously having been warned by the rear pair just in time. 

Flt Lt Trevor Keelor and Flt Lt S Krishnaswamy, who were trailing the front Gnat section, had been able to sandwich Yusufs Sabre while he was busy with his quarry. Keelor opened up with the Gnats 30mm cannon causing extensive damage to the Sabre. A large portion of the elevator had been blown off, but Yusuf continued dogfighting somewhat shakily. Hearing his plight on the radio, Abdul Khaliq made an attempt to rejoin the fight, as he had not gone much far. Luckily, the Sabres were able to pair up again and they continued to help each other fight their way out of the cloud of six Gnats[2]. 

Flt Lt Farooq Haider, who had been controlling the fight from Sakesar Radar, apprehended the gravity of the situation and directed Mirzas nearby Starfighter into the midst of ongoing combat. The fearsome reputation of the Starfighter was not unfounded, it appeared, as the Gnats went helter skelter on sighting it. Abdul Khaliq, who at this time was being chased by Pathania, thus managed to get a lucky reprieve.

Pajh oye  104 eeee, Sikand shouted out to Pathania in inimitable Punjabi (the English translation, Run  its a 104 just cannot grasp the hint of mad rush in the expression)[3]. The 104 did not stay in the fight for long as the idea was to charge in at supersonic speed and try a pot shot or, simply overwhelm the adversaries with sheer awe[4]. Mirza did his act a couple of times before leaving the scene; it had a salutary effect, as the dogfight broke off and the Gnats started egressing. Sikand, who had initiated the panic call, broke off too, but in an opposite direction, thus losing contact with his wingman as well as the rest of the formation. 

At Sakesar Radar, Farooq was keeping abreast of the situation. Anticipating the need for reinforcement, he had scrambled another Starfighter to the scene. Flown by Flt Lt Hakimullah, it arrived a bit late for the Gnats which had turned away. One Gnat, however, was seen to be behaving strangely; having gone back, it turned about and re-entered Pakistani airspace. Hakimullah, who was supersonic at this time, was directed towards the errant intruder. Though Hakimullah could not sight the tiny Gnat at the speed he was flying, he learnt from Sakesar that his adversary had slowed down to what appeared like landing speed. Hakimullah set up orbit over the area, wondering if a forced landing was in progress. Shortly thereafter, to his utter surprise, he picked contact with a Gnat taxiing down the disused Pasrur airstrip near Sialkot. 

(IAF Gnat in PAF museum Karachi)






When Greene and his formation members landed, they were in celebratory mood for what was believed to be Keelors kill. They were expecting Sikand, the gregarious fellow that he was, to join in any time for a hearty beer session. Little did they know that their Flight Commander was in Pakistani custody following a bizarre episode. 

During interrogation Sikand claimed that almost all his systems failed soon after he was separated from his formation. Once he had lost visual contact with everyone, he tried to communicate on the radio, but found it dead. His guns too had jammed, fuel flow had become erratic and the fuel quantity was low; incredibly, his compass also went berserk and he lost his bearings. If there was any hope of making it back, the Starfighters snuffed it. Under the circumstances, the airstrip that he saw was a godsend, no matter that he stepped off his Gnat as a vanquished airman.

Yusuf somehow managed to keep his badly damaged aircraft in control and, extricated out of the battle area alongwith his wingman. With marginal fuel as well as a dead radio, he made it to Sargodha; however, after landing he discovered that there was no hydraulic pressure for braking, and the Sabre ended up in the over-run arrester barrier without further damage. For having fought single-handedly against six Gnats and, also for recovering a badly damaged aircraft, Yusuf was awarded a Sitara-i-Jurat[5]. Keelor, who claimed having seen Yusufs aircraft go down, was promptly awarded a Vir Chakra for what was believed to be IAFs first kill. The picture of the damaged Sabre released by the PAF told a different story, though. 

Sikand was promptly apprehended by Pak Army troops and had to spend the next five months as a POW. After his repatriation, the IAF somehow took a light view of the incident and, Sikand resumed his career; he eventually rose to the rank of an Air Marshal[6]. His aircraft was flown to Sargodha by Sqn Ldr Saad Hatmi, who carried out several evaluation flights after the war. Hatmi, who had flown the Gnat extensively while on an exchange assignment with the RAF, did not find the IAF version any different. He also maintained that the Gnat was no Sabre Slayer[7] when it came to dogfighting. After its brief service with the new air arm, Gnat IE1083 was consigned to the PAF Museum, where it continues to bemuse visitors with one of the bizarre episodes of the 1965 War. 
_________________________

[1] Murdeshwar was flying this Gnat.
[2] Two of the eight Gnats planned for the mission had aborted due to technical reasons.
[3] Farooq heard Sikands call on the radio-monitoring equipment while the interception was in progress.
[4] Krishnaswamy, for instance, recalled being so awe-struck at the sight of the Starfighter that he passed up a shot of opportunity as the aircraft went by.
[5] Yusuf lived upto the citation for gallantry when he shot down a Gnat flown by Flt Lt A N Kale near Ferozepur on 13th Sep.
[6] In a strange turn of fortunes, Sikand was able to put the scandalous incident behind him, although it is said that his influential father-in-law, a Central Government minister, was instrumental in his reinstatement. Sikand was given command of No 22 Squadron, which he led during the 1971 Indo-Pak War. His honour was redeemed to an extent when two Gnats of his Squadron downed two PAF Sabres on the Eastern Front.
[7] It must be conceded that the Gnat was a formidable fighter, as the IAF nickname suggests. In the few decisive Gnat vs Sabre engagements of the 65 War, Gnats downed three Sabres and damaged one, while Sabres downed two Gnats and damaged one.


This article is an excerpted chapter from Air Cdre Kaiser Tufail's book, Great Air Battles of Pakistan Air Force, published by Ferozsons (Pvt) Ltd, 2005. It was also published in the daily newspaper, The News International on 6 Sep 2003.


http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/53891-f-104-surrender-iaf-gnat-65-a.html

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## Chappal Chor

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Watch ur mouth son.This is not ur home nor ur talking to ur father.
> Keep it civilised or face the hammer of web master with a shebang.



is it not true that they ran away in between when you requested to help you. 



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Who said we won?
> Still we held u in ur shoes....From a civil proxy to support from USSR to being massively out numbered,out gunned and under embargo.



dream of kashmir ended with defending lahore. lol was it great 


Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Thanks for accepting its ours.
> India was sub contitnent was occupied for 200 years.
> Dont worry.



yes as per you it is yours but the reality check is it is Indian State of which you have occupied one third of it and have been wet dreaming for past 63 years for rest of it.




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> I reffer u to our brother Wind jammers posts reguarding 1965....also dont u indian people and ur govrnment celebrate 65?47 or 62?
> iI hope u know why.
> Quarter of ur airforce was destroyed as for starters etc etc.



47: you tried in whole of kashmir. as soon as our forces entered your dream was limited over to one third. so we celebrate
65: you thought of having kashmir again and ended defending lahore. so we celebrate
62: though we dont celebrate but it was a eye opener for us. thanks to china.



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> india attacked at night without even properly announcing war according to rules.....Not us.
> About losing..why dont u celebrate 65?




It was you who started the war with operation gibraltor not us. we celebrate 65 but not as victory because it was a stalemate.



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Good for u.



ok

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## Kompromat

One more Tablet. 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/58067-cheapest-kill.html#post861602


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Chappal Chor said:


> Investigations are going on and it was indians only who found out the conspiracy if you remember.




Since how many years?and till how many years more till hey conclude something?



> But still is it banned. it was and it is a legitimate organization. all your created organization are banned.



Everything u dont like is banned..from being the politician who wrote a book on Jinnah to books tht prove u being involved in 71 civil war.
Its not a secret u should admit it.Even bengali members here are admitting it.




> In October 2009, the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) announced that it was in the final stages of planning the offensive and had received approval from the Union-led government. The Commando Battalion for Resolute Action (COBRA) would take the lead in the operations against Maoist insurgents.[3]



SF arent they a part of ur forces?




> and i am sad that you cant




 No thanks i love my girl friend.
I wish u joy  and happines..just dont steal stuff from the shop.





> so sorry for your loss in advance. any day your chacha would be returning home in body bag.



Thts cheap buddy..If i was a ..... like u id had wished u the same but im not a low life like u.

But true for people like u and 720 000 indian occupying forces again i thank u for saying its OUR(PAKISTANS) land.




> so you tube is your source



Will u like UN human rights,amnestry international and others?
Also this is india occupied Kashmir isnt it?
YES it is now get over it.


----------



## Chappal Chor

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Since how many years?and till how many years more till hey conclude something?



Investigations take time. you cant end a trial just in one attempt. 



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Everything u dont like is banned..from being the politician who wrote a book on Jinnah to books tht prove u being involved in 71 civil war.
> Its not a secret u should admit it.Even bengali members here are admitting it.



It is not banned by India. they are banned in UN if you remember.





Pakistani Nationalist said:


> SF arent they a part of ur forces?



Forces dont mean army. even police is part of security force.





Pakistani Nationalist said:


> No thanks i love my girl friend.
> I wish u joy  and happines..just dont steal stuff from the shop.



are you sure she is girl friend or boy friend. with your interest in such shops you it sounds more like boy friend.






Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Thts cheap buddy..If i was a ..... like u id had wished u the same but im not a low life like u.
> 
> But true for people like u and 720 000 indian occupying forces again i thank u for saying its OUR(PAKISTANS) land.



any one who intends to hurt India or anything should return back in body bags. doesnt matter who or what he is. Its simple and clear policy.




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Will u like UN human rights,amnestry international and others?
> Also this is india occupied Kashmir isnt it?
> YES it is now get over it.



But it continues to be a part of India.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Chappal Chor said:


> is it not true that they ran away in between when you requested to help you.



First learn to respect and deserve respect.
We dont give a syt abt USA.
Ask people of Pakistan a recent report say only 4% people like usa.



> dream of kashmir ended with defending lahore. lol was it great



U attacked on Lahore at night without announcing war..Wat do people call it?
Yeah and ended with conquering rajhistan fort




> yes as per you it is yours but the reality check is it is Indian State of which you have occupied one third of it and have been wet dreaming for past 63 years for rest of it.


 
Lol now dont u repent from ur statement.
I again thank you and ur friends who said for saying its an indian occupied territory in previous posts,




> 47: you tried in whole of kashmir. *as soon as our forces entered your dream was limited over to one third*. so we celebrate



: Our guys had captured ladakh when nehru ran to UN and promised a refrendum........Check the neutral history and dont feed on B.S indian media.
 I have yet to see india celebrating 48



> 65: you thought of having kashmir again and ended defending lahore. so *we celebrate*



Ended with captured rajhistan fort and running to Tashkent for a cease fire?
Highlighted part is :
Ask ur government to do tht too


> 62: though we dont celebrate but it was a eye opener for us. thanks to china.



Lol u should celebrate tht with 48 and 65.



> It was you who started the war with operation gibraltor not us. *we celebrate 65 *but not as victory because it was a stalemate.




Thts Bullshit.Living in fools
A myth an illusion....
For dellusional people they say:
If dreams were horses everybody would have been ridding them and not walkin.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Chappal Chor said:


> Investigations take time. you cant end a trial just in one attempt.



Yeah such terrorist activities which involve indian people do take years to conclude.
Be it massacre in gujrat or orissa....But in case of other india media itself starts media trials.




> It is not banned by India. they are banned in UN if you remember.



Nope any links?
Even then truth doesnt change.



> are you sure she is girl friend or boy friend. with your interest in such shops you it sounds more like boy friend.



Yes sir 101% i m not from ur community.
But we care about our indian members here on pdf.
Enjoy ur shoppin and for ur hubby.



> any one who intends to hurt India or anything should return back in body bags. doesnt matter who or what he is. Its simple and clear policy.



Do read wat u ranted in last post.
U should watch ur mouth before commenting like a moron.



> it continues to be a But part of India.



Same was said by british occupiers and other occupying forces around the world till they were and are being jerked off.
Since 63 years from 1047 till now more then 160 countries have gained indipendence and Inshallah blood of Kahmiris wont go wasted.
Ameen.


----------



## Areesh

> come on you tried mess in our country and see you were fighting your own people in couple of days. you guys wanted a war you got one  Live with it.



Come on buddy. Things are changing at a fast pace. Stop watching India TV. 

As I said you might get something back in the same currency in the near future.



> I dont think so it was worthless because we were able to add extra $$ to your dwindling economy. Not every war is fought with bullets. Didnt we knew that you will follow the nuclear blast



Lollzzz. So just to create problems for our economy you spend billions of rupees and killed 40 soldiers. You are a genius. Who was your PM in those days. Albert Einstein?

Budy the truth is that you don't have the balls to drop a single bomb in our territory. Mark it dear.




> Sorry not just Americans your best friend Chinese have also started to realize that in terms of market India has more potential and it is more to gain from India then Pakistan. the world runs on $$



Forget china dear. If you are under the illusion of chin hind bhai bhai then you are doing a big mistake. China is waiting for the right time to settle it's issues with you. Don't need to tell you that they still consider Arunachal as occupied territory. They are waiting for the right time. And as far as $$ is concerned. They have a lot's of them and because of them they won't forget to tear the a** of their adversary.




> Oh so pakistan won wars without even existing. now it is getting interesting. and which one did you won care to elaborate.




It is the ideology dear. The ideology to remove tyranny and evil from subcontinent existed before 1947. All these wars are the result of that ideology.



> Hope you know that India's 64&#37; population is youth. so that still would be more than what you have as your entire nation.



Come on buddy you are getting too emotional. A huge number of Indian youth is not willing to join IA let alone coming to fight in the war. Don't let emotions overcome your senses.



> Lol and Indian muslims will support Pakistanis. thats the biggest joke of the day.



Well it is the condition and position that will help to decide that where they wanna go. Who wants to live as a "suspected" anyways. Who wants to live under the threat of things like gujrat riots.


----------



## Chappal Chor

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> First learn to respect and deserve respect.
> We dont give a syt abt USA.
> Ask people of Pakistan a recent report say only 4% people like usa.



thats obivious from a nation because more your politicians licked them more they whooped you guys. If you dont give a **** then why did you request help from US. why are you asking them for aid on one or the other forum.why are you providing them path to kill your kind



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> U attacked on Lahore at night without announcing war..Wat do people call it?



war was already started.




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Yeah and ended with conquering rajhistan fort


wanna know how much we had in control.





Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Lol now dont u repent from ur statement.
> I again thank you and ur friends who said for saying its an indian occupied territory in previous posts,



i am not repenting. it was for you that your god given land is with us. if you have guts come and have it.





Pakistani Nationalist said:


> : Our guys had captured ladakh when nehru ran to UN and promised a refrendum........Check the neutral history and dont feed on B.S indian media.
> I have yet to see india celebrating 48


Lol thats called diplomacy. we got what we wanted went to UN and it is still with us  and you are not be able to do anything. Indian minds at work


Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Ended with captured rajhistan fort and running to Tashkent for a cease fire?
> Highlighted part is :
> Ask ur government to do tht too



how much did your land was with us? should i tell you with sources or you already know.



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Lol u should celebrate tht with 48 and 65.



we already do.




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Thts Bullshit.Living in fools
> A myth an illusion....
> For dellusional people they say:
> If dreams were horses everybody would have been ridding them and not walkin.



yes correct. Its 63 years and you are still dreaming Kashmir. form first generation to third generation pakistani every one has the same dream but ended in creating mess out of nation which was once one of the most promising nation in the sub continent.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Chappal Chor

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Yeah such terrorist activities which involve indian people do take years to conclude.
> Be it massacre in gujrat or orissa....But in case of other india media itself starts media trials.



Gujrat and orissa are internal matters, nothing to do with pakistan. it is not a new case in India. judiciary is slow and the proper amendments are being made. it is not you who is suffering becaue of it it is more of us who is suffering.



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Nope any links?
> Even then truth doesnt change.



should i start with JUD and LeT



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Yes sir 101% i m not from ur community.
> But we care about our indian members here on pdf.
> Enjoy ur shoppin and for ur hubby.



sorry mate i dont have a hubby. but yeah we do take care for all communities and people from all walks of life..




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Do read wat u ranted in last post.
> U should watch ur mouth before commenting like a moron.



your freedom fighters are our terrorist. what would you have said i was to say my chacha is fighting along with Taliban.




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Same was said by british occupiers and other occupying forces around the world till they were and are being jerked off.
> Since 63 years from 1047 till now more then 160 countries have gained indipendence and Inshallah blood of Kahmiris wont go wasted.
> Ameen.



one day................. keep dreaming. dont seem to be happening for at least not in 10 20 years. that would only be the case if stop growing. our economy collapse and blah blah.


----------



## Chappal Chor

Areesh said:


> Come on buddy. Things are changing at a fast pace. Stop watching India TV.
> 
> As I said you might get something back in the same currency in the near future.



so you want to invest again then expect the returns


Areesh said:


> Lollzzz. So just to create problems for our economy you spend billions of rupees and killed 40 soldiers. You are a genius. Who was your PM in those days. Albert Einstein?



well we had enough to spare that but did you had. we knew that you will follow up with a crumbled economy. and as you can see your growth curve since then.



Areesh said:


> Budy the truth is that you don't have the balls to drop a single bomb in our territory. Mark it dear.



we dont need to........... why would we do that on a nation where others have 100 reasons to do that.





Areesh said:


> Forget china dear. If you are under the illusion of chin hind bhai bhai then you are doing a big mistake. China is waiting for the right time to settle it's issues with you. Don't need to tell you that they still consider Arunachal as occupied territory. They are waiting for the right time. And as far as $$ is concerned. They have a lot's of them and because of them they won't forget to tear the a** of their adversary.



Arunachal pradesh is not of that importance for them that they attack a nuclear powered country. world runs on $$. 

India china trade is 60 billion dollar. where as pakistan china trade is 16 billion. no way they are going to watch your back or keep 60 billion on stake..





Areesh said:


> It is the ideology dear. The ideology to remove tyranny and evil from subcontinent existed before 1947. All these wars are the result of that ideology.



and who you are some maseeha sent from god. stop acting like that or else you will have more of afghanistans in your neighbour.




Areesh said:


> Come on buddy you are getting too emotional. A huge number of Indian youth is not willing to join IA let alone coming to fight in the war. Don't let emotions overcome your senses.



it was the past. it was because of the perks given, with the implementation of 6th pay commission things are changing rapidly. if it was so we would have not had the second largest army.



Areesh said:


> Well it is the condition and position that will help to decide that where they wanna go. Who wants to live as a "suspected" anyways. Who wants to live under the threat of things like gujrat riots.



Of course they dont wanna go with Pakistan. what happened was the past. it is just pakistan which is living in that pipe dream that muslims of India is gonna support them in case of war. May be like as you thought during operation gibraltor.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Chappal Chor said:


> thats obivious from a nation because more your politicians licked them more they whooped you guys. If you dont give a **** then why did you request help from US. why are you asking them for aid on one or the other forum.why are you providing them path to kill your kind



About help dude dont u recieve help from U.K,U.S and others?
More then half r population is living nder poverty and ur talking like a snob?
delhi and Islamabad have a difference of 90 degrees.




> war was already started.



No it wasnt...



> wanna know how much we had in control.




Oh yeah right.go see previous posts by wind jammer.
Wars arent won by such pitty thing its the fullfillment of objectives tht count....thts why indian government nor people celebrate 48 or 65.




> i am not repenting. it was for you that your god given land is with us. if you have guts come and have it.



Yeah right read wat u said...its ur(PAKISTANS) land?remember?
U will have to give it out buddy.You cant swallow it nor we will let u.
Sub continent was under brits for 200 plus years till we got independence and surely will Kashmir be free.



> Lol thats called diplomacy. we got what we wanted went to UN and it is still with us  and you are not be able to do anything. Indian minds at work



U call begging for a cease fire diplomacy?
Awesome.....i dont have anything more to say.




> how much did your land was with us? should i tell you with sources or you already know.



I consider answering to ur rant below my dignity......
Next time when september comes go out and celebrate on streets of india........
If u cant.......certainly u got ur answer.


> we already do.



And gandhi wasnt a racist nor he slept with little girls.
Celebrate 48-65 -62




> yes correct. Its 63 years and you are still dreaming Kashmir. form first generation to third generation pakistani every one has the same dream but ended in creating mess out of nation which was *once one of the most promising nation in the sub continent*.



How many generation did bosnia,sub continent,algeria,macau(part of china)Hong lkong and others dream for independence?
Didnt bhagat singh dream for independence tht came 100 years after him?
Yes we our started with 1 jute,1 textile mill and only 1 university and is still promising ..economy issues are temporary just started in 2007-8 and Inshallah we will overcome it.
We alreasy are waiting for 7% increase in GDP in near future.
4.3 % increase starting from this year.


----------



## karan.1970

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> No we remember Pathankot
> *And 5 bogeys in under 1 minute
> Awesome kills dont u appreciate?*Sargodha?lol
> Ohhhh right ur feeding on indian propoganda?
> 100 plus IAF kills againts PAF>>lol hahahahahhaha



Yes I do.. That Alam guy was the top gun.. No doubt..

Personal heroics aside, can some one lookup the area exchange figures during the cease fire negotitations.. Who returned how much area again??


----------



## Areesh

Chappal Chor said:


> so you want to invest again then expect the returns
> 
> 
> well we had enough to spare that but did you had. we knew that you will follow up with a crumbled economy. and as you can see your growth curve since then.
> 
> 
> 
> we dont need to........... why would we do that on a nation where others have 100 reasons to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arunachal pradesh is not of that importance for them that they attack a nuclear powered country. world runs on $$.
> 
> India china trade is 60 billion dollar. where as pakistan china trade is 16 billion. no way they are going to watch your back or keep 60 billion on stake..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and who you are some maseeha sent from god. stop acting like that or else you will have more of afghanistans in your neighbour.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it was the past. it was because of the perks given, with the implementation of 6th pay commission things are changing rapidly. if it was so we would have not had the second largest army.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course they dont wanna go with Pakistan. what happened was the past. it is just pakistan which is living in that pipe dream that muslims of India is gonna support them in case of war. May be like as you thought during operation gibraltor.





> so you want to invest again then expect the returns



To do that you would need an Afghanistan and that you won't be getting. In fact you would be kicked out of one which you have right now.  Indians in Afghanistan are already in deep pressure to save their lives.




> well we had enough to spare that but did you had. we knew that you will follow up with a crumbled economy. and as you can see your growth curve since then.



As I said you are a genius.  Things don't change with such posts. Doesn't change the fact you don't have the balls to commit any aggression.




> we dont need to........... why would we do that on a nation where others have 100 reasons to do that.



Keep waiting for the others as we strangle hold your neck.




> Arunachal pradesh is not of that importance for them that they attack a nuclear powered country. world runs on $$.



Who says they are going to attack you. They have many plans which they are waiting to execute to make occupied Arunachal unoccupied. And it is important for them. You have to learn about Chinese mentality dear.




> India china trade is 60 billion dollar. where as pakistan china trade is 16 billion. no way they are going to watch your back or keep 60 billion on stake..



As I said for them tearing enemy's a** is more important then $$. They have too much of them. They know they can't live with a country like India in this region with peace.




> and who you are some maseeha sent from god. stop acting like that or else you will have more of afghanistans in your neighbour.



To destroy something is much easier then building something. I hope you know that. The rule applies to you too. We will apply this rule. As far as Afghanistan is concern you need American 9/11 to get more Afghanistan which at least right now you won't be getting. Americans can't afford anything like 9/11 right now.



> it was the past. it was because of the perks given, with the implementation of 6th pay commission things are changing rapidly. if it was so we would have not had the second largest army.



So much for the patriotism.



> Of course they dont wanna go with Pakistan. what happened was the past. it is just pakistan which is living in that pipe dream that muslims of India is gonna support them in case of war. May be like as you thought during operation gibraltor.



Who wants them to go with Pakistan. Let them go against India. And the result would be mutual benefit. But at right time not now.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Chappal Chor said:


> Gujrat and orissa are internal matters, nothing to do with pakistan. it is not a new case in India. judiciary is slow and the proper amendments are being made. it is not you who is suffering becaue of it it is more of us who is suffering
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Yes correct thts why ur modi and other mass murders are roaming around ?
> While u demand of helping our sikh citizens isnt our internal issue?
> When u talk of Fata and others is our issue.
> So next time dont forget tht.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> should i start with JUD and LeT
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think they are banned?
> And Hafiz Saeed sahab doesnt have any evidence against him unlike indian military officiers who burnt Pakistanis alive in a train launched for godwill.
> Nice justice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> your freedom fighters are our terrorist. what would you have said i was to say my chacha is fighting along with Taliban.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our freedom fighters are as freedom fighters as was bhagat singh or Ilm deen shaheed.
> And where did my uncle attack india?
> Ur B.s rubbish and just bull crap.
> And yes we know lots of indian chachas are supporting BLA and other fukers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> one day................. keep dreaming. dont seem to be happening for at least not in 10 20 years. that would only be the case if stop growing. our economy collapse and blah blah.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Its always the dreams of freedom tht come alive from william wallice to present day algieria and other nations.
> Basatrd occupiers of sub continent were always mocking freedom fighters of the sub continent till they were kicked on the lower back so it doesnt suite people like u to do the same.
> Respect is wat takes u to heights and disrespect and arrogance is wat causes decline in states from rome to USSR
Click to expand...


----------



## Windjammer

Chappal Chor said:


> Lol and the pipe dream of 1 Pakistani = 10 Indian continues.... good for us. Better research about the rescue operation before commenting.


The obsession of 1.3 Billion to 180 Million goes along way to prove that.


> Hope so that you will give some gallantry award to Kasab once he is dead. if you want we can throw in your side of border wrapped in your national flag for being your martyr



Oops, the plan didn't work, or did it, well at least you people managed to take Hemant Kakre out of the scene. Damn, he could have exposed a lot.


----------



## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> As you say thousands, a figure of 90,000 comes to mind.. Cant place form where though...Was that the number of Pakistani Army folks who surrendered and were captured from Bangladesh in 1971??


Actually no, more closer to our life time the figure of graves in IOK rings a bell, add a few thousands Sikhs involved in Indra Gandhi's murder to that, couple of thousand Muslims in Gujarat and now the Naxals are keeping the counter ticking.


----------



## Trichy

its just for Food, Education and Shelter. I think its enough but increase the amount is fair..


----------



## Mogambo

The education is 100% free and they will also get food at school. For employment they can get it under MNREGA, 100 days of guaranteed employment per year if govt. can't provide them employment then govt. will give them full wages sitting at home.


----------



## psychedelic_renegade

> Oops, the plan didn't work, or did it, well at least you people managed to take Hemant Kakre out of the scene. Damn, he could have exposed a lot.



Calling Mumbai incident an Indian plan is same as calling US drone attack on your 'sovereign' country ISI plan. Get rid of the conspiracy theories, sooner the better.


----------



## Windjammer

psychedelic_renegade said:


> Calling Mumbai incident an Indian plan is same as calling US drone attack on your 'sovereign' country ISI plan. Get rid of the conspiracy theories, sooner the better.



The day until Indian authorities can give an exact figure of who and how many were involved, there is no end to the conspiracy theories.


----------



## Iggy

Windjammer said:


> Actually no, more closer to our life time the figure of graves in IOK rings a bell, add a few thousands Sikhs involved in Indra Gandhi's murder to that, couple of thousand Muslims in Gujarat and now the Naxals are keeping the counter ticking.



Or may be that will be the count of people died in Pakistan cities because of the bomb blasts.. it also happened in our life time if you remember ..


----------



## Rafael

Chappal Chor said:


> Support from US. Oh **** they kicked your back and ran away seeing USSR.
> 
> 
> Battles dont win a war? at the end of the day what matters is who won the battle.
> 
> 
> And still we hold your kashmir and in 63 years you are not able to take 1 inch of your land.
> 
> 
> as per you i think you might be beliving that you had yada and yada amount of Indian land and Indians had none.
> 
> And you ended up giving everything back....  at the end of the day so who was looser.
> 
> 
> I dont pray. I do my job. Thats my prayer and thats what my religon tells me to just do my job which is the biggest prayer.




Chappal chOR :

No reply to BB's post? 

waiting....


----------



## Rafael

seiko said:


> Or may be that will be the count of people died in Pakistan cities because of the bomb blasts.. it also happened in our life time if you remember ..



and shall we also count the number of indians dyeing from hunger and poverty? who do not have toilets? who eat rats? see its happening around accross the border in our life time if you remember..


----------



## psychedelic_renegade

> The day until Indian authorities can give an exact figure of who and how many were involved, there is no end to the conspiracy theories.



Last thing I remember your own renowned news agency reporting from Kasab's village, anyway may be Zaid Hamid is a more trusted source!


----------



## psychedelic_renegade

Anyway I wont get involved in the d*** measuring contest, mods should close the thread as nothing substantial on Kashmir being debated here.


----------



## Windjammer

seiko said:


> Or may be that will be the count of people died in Pakistan cities because of the bomb blasts.. it also happened in our life time if you remember ..



Seems it's still happening at a faster pace, tragically your Naxals don't believe in single figures.


----------



## Bushy

seiko said:


> Or may be that will be the count of people died in Pakistan cities because of the bomb blasts.. it also happened in our life time if you remember ..




Well my friend, the fact is, the mass graves came into being when that part of Kashmir was a 'Liberated Zone' (in Northern Indian Kashmir), and when that part did not have any Indian influence. No prizes for guessing how those graves came into being.

So Seiko, it is no use debating with our immature Pakistani counterparts on subjects so sensitive to them. They will always bring up some half baked case, such as that of mass graves, without giving out any specifics (They can never, because there are no specifics they can morally relate to).

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## Gene

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> And gandhi didnt sleep with little girls.....wont say anything else.



If you don't know about anyone,better shut up your F***ing mouth !!!!
I know you are brain washed from beginning.It's your history book which spread these hatred words.your leaders always condemned Jawaharlal Nehru,Mahatma Gandhi as evils had taken these things to school curriculum...

This is 21st century.Wake up & open your mind!!!!
just look around you & listen what else the world history tells......

Do you know why our education system is better than yours????
because in our history book we don't comment idiot things about great leaders,including Mr Jinnah.

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## Bushy

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> And gandhi didnt sleep with little girls.....wont say anything else.



Your Qaid-e-Azam held Gandhi in the highest regard. Next time on, please make some efforts not to belittle the Pakistani people by showing utter disrespect toward the founder of your country.

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## Iggy

Windjammer said:


> Seems it's still happening at a faster pace, tragically your Naxals don't believe in single figures.



well last time i check neither your TTP too


----------



## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> Actually no, more closer to our life time the figure of graves in IOK rings a bell, add a few thousands Sikhs involved in Indra Gandhi's murder to that, couple of thousand Muslims in Gujarat and now the Naxals are keeping the counter ticking.



Nah! No Cigar! you're wrong.. It *was *the number of PA folks who surrendered in BD.. Better luck next time

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## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> Seems it's still happening at a faster pace, tragically your Naxals don't believe in single figures.



Please remember the play of digits when a similar event happens in Pakistan (heaven forbid)


----------



## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> Nah! No Cigar! you're wrong.. It *was *the number of PA folks who surrendered in BD.. Better luck next time



Still trying to prove which line is bigger.


----------



## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> Still trying to prove which line is bigger.



It seems they have all started intersecting now . throw and catch my friend.. throw and catch...

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Gene said:


> If you don't know about anyone,*better shut up your F***ing mouth !!!!*I know you are brain washed from beginning.*It's your history book which spread these hatred words*.your leaders always condemned Jawaharlal Nehru,Mahatma Gandhi as evils had taken these things to school curriculum...
> 
> This is 21st century.Wake up & open your mind!!!!
> just look around you & listen what else the world history tells......
> 
> Do you know why our education system is better than yours????
> because in our history book* we don't comment idiot things *about great leaders,including Mr Jinnah.



U shut the f...k up u low life scum.
Not our text books but indian sikh military officiers and historians?
Wasnt gandhi racist toward blacks and called them kafirs?
It was coz of his big brother hindu theorey tht made Jinnah realise a need for a Muslim state.
It was gandhi who wasw sleeping with little girls to revitalise his stuff.
Not Great lear Jinnah.
You already blame Jinnah for making another country.......it was Azad who was doing hatred speeches against Quaid E Azam.
Ur text books and ur media spoon feed u with anti Pakistan propoganda bull shyt.....from calling war to agni warsha against Pakistan u guys are filled with venom.
Go get a life
Here by indian sikhs
Gandhi: Behind the Mask of Divinity
Here
Gandhi the Man

The Straight Dope: Did Mahatma Gandhi sleep with virgins?

Next time watch ur mouth before crapping through it.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Bushy said:


> Your Qaid-e-Azam held Gandhi in the highest regard. Next time on, please make some efforts not to belittle the Pakistani people by showing utter *disrespect toward the founder of your country*.



HAHAHAHAHAHAH
It was due to UR leader gandhi tht was sleeping with little girls not 
Great AUAID E AZAM and hence im not disrepecting Pakistani or our GREAT FATHER of the Nation.
It was coz of gandhis attitude tht QUAID E AZAM left congress and asked for a seperate Nation.


----------



## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> It seems they have all started intersecting now . throw and catch my friend.. throw and catch...



Glad we are clear about that now, you will get as good as you give, no mercy.

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## prodevelopment

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> And gandhi didnt sleep with little girls.....wont say anything else.



Gandhi married a 13 year old.
Jinnah married his 14 year old cousin.

BOTH SLEPT WITH LITTLE GIRLS.

Now that both sides have been sufficiently humiliated, can we please close this thread?

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## Windjammer

prodevelopment said:


> Gandhi married a 13 year old.
> Jinnah married his 14 year old cousin.
> 
> BOTH SLEPT WITH LITTLE GIRLS.
> 
> Now that both sides have been sufficiently humiliated, can we please close this thread?



Marrying some one according to law of the land is one thing but as for rest it makes disturbing headlines. 

Thrill of the chaste: The truth about Gandhi's sex life - Features, Books - The Independent


----------



## prodevelopment

Windjammer said:


> Marrying some one according to law of the land is one thing but as for rest it makes disturbing headlines.
> 
> Thrill of the chaste: The truth about Gandhi's sex life - Features, Books - The Independent



Windy,

I have been following your posts for the past few weeks and I must say that you do nothing constructive but put oil on fire. 

Being from the land of Kamasutra, I have no problems with the kinky stuff. But this thread is not the appropriate place to discuss that.

Do start another thread where we can discuss everyone's sex lives openly.

Call it: Gandhi's raw sexual magnetism vs Jinnah's Sexy suave swagger.

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## Windjammer

prodevelopment said:


> Windy,
> 
> I have been following your posts for the past few weeks and I must say that you do nothing constructive but put oil on fire.
> 
> Being from the land of Kamasutra, I have no problems with the kinky stuff. But this thread is not the appropriate place to discuss that.
> 
> Do start another thread where we can discuss Gandhi's raw sexual magnetism vs Jinnah's Sexy suave swagger.


The term is putting out fire with gasoline. it's heartening to know i have a following. Any how, i have great respect for Bapu and know that he studied Koran, but even a kinky fellow like you should realize there is no comparison between marriage and passion of a different nature


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## Frankenstein

Chappal Chor said:


> Oh well last time when we crossed your sees sun stopped rising in Karachi for 2 days. Remember



No i dont, explain it to me


----------



## Windjammer

Link not working.


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## Frankenstein

Another Kashmir thread ruined, mods please close it


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## Frankenstein

Windjammer said:


> Yes we all know why you couldn't see the sunshine.
> 
> 
> http://smartmortgageadvice.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/head-up-***.jpg



404  File not found.

Seems lyk chapal chor is not just a chapal chor, he hacked and deleted the files before anybody cud see


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## Windjammer

Chappal Chor said:


> Oh well last time when we crossed your sees sun stopped rising in Karachi for 2 days. Remember



Yes we all know why you couldn't see the sunshine.

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## Frankenstein

psychedelic_renegade said:


> Calling Mumbai incident an Indian plan is same as calling US drone attack on your 'sovereign' country ISI plan. Get rid of the conspiracy theories, sooner the better.



How pathetic now is it

Mumbai attacks was done by the terrorist to kill innocent people while drone attacks objective is to kill the terrorists and whole Pakistan knows about that, get you facts straight, sooner the better


----------



## Frankenstein

psychedelic_renegade said:


> Anyway I wont get involved in the d*** measuring contest, mods should close the thread as nothing substantial on Kashmir being debated here.



you already got involved


----------



## Windjammer

Frankenstein said:


> you already got involved



And he lost , poor chap had a tear in his eye.

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## Frankenstein

Gene said:


> If you don't know about anyone,better shut up your *F***ing mouth* !!!!


Your books teaches such words to be used against us, lets get to the point


> I know you are brain washed from beginning.It's your history book which spread these hatred words.


Do you have any idea which book you are taking about, I dont remember reading sucha book with hatred word against India, not in my school not anywhere else, its jus your delusions, tell me about your books do they have words of wisdom on us, btw we dont need books to hate you, we hate people by judging them


> This is 21st century.Wake up & open your mind!!!!
> just look around you & listen what else the world history tells


Seems lyk you have opened your mind, what does it tells, share with us


> Do you know why our education system is better than yours????


Any proof how, another indian delusion that they are better then any country, keep it to yourself



> because in our history book we don't comment idiot things about great leaders,including Mr Jinnah.


As i told you, never heard such books, maybe available in India


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## Frankenstein

karan.1970 said:


> Please remember the play of digits when a similar event happens in Pakistan (heaven forbid)



We will be ready, hope our security personals havent taken any lessons from india security personals 

The reason why terrorists get in to Pakistan's secure places is cuz they disguise themselves into some high rank Army personal but In case of India they dont need to, just bribe some security personals and mission accomplished

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## Frankenstein

prodevelopment said:


> windjammer
> I have been following your posts for the past few weeks and I must say that you do nothing constructive but put oil on fire.



do you have the fire extinguisher, do you have anything constructive to discuss bring it forward else join the club


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## Frankenstein

Choppers said:


> *Doodh Mangoge To Kheer denge ,Kashmir Mangoge To Cheeer Denge..*



Kya tum pairr pe char sakte ho,
kya sanjivani buti la sakte ho,
kya sina cheer k dikha sakte ho,
nahi na,
beta kewal shakal bandar jaisi
hone se koi Hanuman nai hota.
Hindi funny poetries, they are all so funny


----------



## Pride

Frankenstein said:


> Kya tum pairr pe char sakte ho,
> kya sanjivani buti la sakte ho,
> kya sina cheer k dikha sakte ho,
> nahi na,
> beta kewal shakal bandar jaisi
> hone se koi Hanuman nai hota.
> Hindi funny poetries, they are all so funny



yes, Such poems are meant for fun only.

In our schools, teacher don't teach us funny quotes like "We will take Kashmir one day from India" but surely Pakistani school does..:taz


----------



## Pride

Even my experience with J&K people is the same. They are much more aligned with India but having trouble with foreign funded terrorist (so called freedom fighters) and presence of Indian Army.


----------



## RobbieS

That Waddoo guy is a good defender and a tough tackler. He changed the whole look of the defence with his height and good build. 

Here he is, proud as anybody in the India team jersey.


----------



## dabong1

username said:


> When I said about feasibility I meant feasibility of taking away Kashmir from India, not just keeping the world's attention, using your so called freedom fighters.



Its about as feasible as the vietnamese fighting the US or as feasible as the afghans fighting the russians.





username said:


> I was of the opinion that the Pakistan supports and gives away its own comman man (what I mean by comman man = normal citizen, not a uniformed person) life for gaining Kashmir, never thought this approach is just to keep reminding the world about this problem. And even this keeping the world's attention doesn't seem to give the expected results for you. The world simply says have bilateral talk, nobody comes to mediate at all. Pakistan tried to invite U.S., China for this talk about Kashmir with India but they simply denied. So the world attention does not yield the expected result for you, so why bother sending your own citizen for getting killed accross the border ?



So your saying that there was no international pressure on india to start kashmir talks with pakistan?......the fighting in kashmir has raised the issue across the world and before when nobody really knew what was going on kashmir now the world is fully aware.




username said:


> Expenditure ratio ? Never bother this is our country, if we think of checks and balances and leave one part of our land to other country, then the whole nation will loose moral, and that will pave the way for separatists to start operations everywhere, so this is not about check and balance for us. And the main thing is we cannot give our own citizens and thier land to other country for anything, anything at all, so it is not checks and balances for us, it is about protecting our people and their land. You can have your own views that we actually don't protect but we oppress, and I will not argue about that because nobody ever came to any conclusion about that in this forum.



Your conclusions are not backed what your own govt says or the international community......if kashmir is part of india then why did you indians take it to the UN and why has the the world classed it as a dispute.
You go and protect your people in india but kashmir is not part of india so your logic falls apart.




username said:


> I am only interested in knowing whether Pakistan gives the correct respect to its so called freedom fighters, and feasibility of using this approach to take Kashmir away from India. About the feasibility I have got your answer that it is not to take away Kashmir, but Pakistan slays its own Comman Man's life just to keep the world's attention on Kashmir. Only question which is still open is whether Pakistan gives the correct respect to its so called freedom fighters.



I presume you have never been to pakistan and that why you keep raising the same issue of do the freedom fighters get respect........ask anybody on the forum that live near kashmir or in kashmir how much respect the people and govt the give to the freedom fighters.





username said:


> Yes, please assume good faith, if you prove irrefutably I will surely believe. At present I still think Pakistan is morally bankrupt.



Google it and check it out yourself.





username said:


> Thanks for agreeing with me about the manipulation. May be the terrorists are having a misaligned belief about patriotism and Pakistan manipulates them without giving them their due respects (as in galentary awards, compensation as same as your army gets etc). Pakistan simply manipulates their misplaced patriotism for its own gain without giving anything. This is much more serious than violating someone's civil rights.



The same way is think that the indian govt manipulates the common indian man into wasting billions on occupying kashmir when that money could be spent on the benefit of the poor.




username said:


> Note :- The misplaced patriotism of the terrorists is our point of view, there is no need for you to refute this, you can simply disagree. The main point of discussion is whether Pakistan really gives them due respects or simply manipulates ?



I have told you that pakistan helps these freedom fighters through there own tanzeems.....money-food-jobs ect 



username said:


> I think Pakistan manipulates the uneducated people, and hence it is morally bankrupt.



What is your defination of educated persons?


----------



## username

dabong1 said:


> Its about as feasible as the vietnamese fighting the US or as feasible as the afghans fighting the russians.


hmmm... For Russians as well as US they were not preserving their own land, they invaded a foreign country. So this is not a comparision at all. 





dabong1 said:


> So your saying that there was no international pressure on india to start kashmir talks with pakistan?......the fighting in kashmir has raised the issue across the world and before when nobody really knew what was going on kashmir now the world is fully aware.



Dude, there is no need for terrorism to highlight if you think there is an issue. Just for highlighting the issue Pakistan is slaying its own citizens, this is what is unacceptable. 



dabong1 said:


> Your conclusions are not backed what your own govt says or the international community......if kashmir is part of india then why did you indians take it to the UN and why has the the world classed it as a dispute.
> You go and protect your people in india but kashmir is not part of india so your logic falls apart.



hmmm... this was discussed in so many threads and they went no where, anyways my 2 cents India never wants anybody to interfere in Kashmir, not even the UN. 





dabong1 said:


> I presume you have never been to pakistan and that why you keep raising the same issue of do the freedom fighters get respect........ask anybody on the forum that live near kashmir or in kashmir how much respect the people and govt the give to the freedom fighters.
> 
> Google it and check it out yourself.
> 
> I have told you that pakistan helps these freedom fighters through there own tanzeems.....money-food-jobs ect



Yes I have never been to Pakistan and I did not get anysource at all from your government saying that your so called freedom fighters are getting even two cents from Pakistan. On the other hand if you see the GoI is so considerate for the victims of terrorist attacks and even to the family of dead terrorist, tell me if you need a link for this. 



dabong1 said:


> The same way is think that the indian govt manipulates the common indian man into wasting billions on occupying kashmir when that money could be spent on the benefit of the poor.




Nope not at all, it is all defence expenditures to protect our own country. And those expenditures are listed out in budget by the government elected by the people (anyways defence expenditure or Kashmir had never been the issues highlighted for election by any party in India). 





dabong1 said:


> What is your defination of educated persons?


We have already been over this, I asked for any educated people (you yourself said Doctors, Engineers, etc..) participating in your so called armed struggle, but you could not get one for me, so forget it.

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## KS

dabong1 said:


> Its about as feasible as the vietnamese fighting the US or as feasible as the afghans fighting the russians.



Cmon Mr.Dabong....For the Vietnamese there was the mighty USSR and the Chinese backing it..and for the Afghans there was the USA backing it.......But for Kashmir...?
Dont say Pakista unless u have the mental fortitude to equate Pakistan with either the US or USSR.
And in our case both the US and Russia support our position on Kashmir.





dabong1 said:


> So your saying that there was no international pressure on india to start kashmir talks with pakistan?......the fighting in kashmir has raised the issue across the world and before when nobody really knew what was going on kashmir now the world is fully aware.



Nobody in the world is concerned abt the Kashmiris dear...The international community is concerned abt the nuclear weapons in the hands of Pakistan and India and how this region will become a international nuclear dumping ground in case of a war..that y they r pressuring. 




dabong1 said:


> Your conclusions are not backed what your own govt says or the international community......if kashmir is part of india then why did you indians take it to the UN and why has the the world classed it as a dispute.



We took the case to UN because that fool Nehru believed in non-violence and a peaceful slution to all problems.
And thts the single biggest mistake we have done on the Kashmir issue.
Ahh Hw much i wish a Sardar Patel or a Subhash Chandra Bose had been the Prime min isters of India. 



dabong1 said:


> You go and protect your people in india but kashmir is not part of india so your logic falls apart.



We ve been protecting them for the past 63 years friend.




dabong1 said:


> I presume you have never been to pakistan and that why you keep raising the same issue of do the freedom fighters get respect........ask anybody on the forum that live near kashmir or in kashmir how much respect the people and govt the give to the freedom fighters.



Why shuld i care even my hair as to wat ppl in Pakistan think abt the terrorists..?For Indians they r terrorists and are dealt *** such.Period.






dabong1 said:


> The same way is think that the indian govt manipulates the common indian man into wasting billions on occupying kashmir when that money could be spent on the benefit of the poor.



I dont care *my tax money* being spent in "occupying" Kashmir....Why do u care..?




dabong1 said:


> I have told you that pakistan helps these freedom fighters through there own tanzeems.....money-food-jobs ect



They wuld be doing a even greater help if they allow these terrorists to live a little longer rather than making them come to india and get killed in the hands of the RR,J&K poilice.


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## toxic_pus

dabong1 said:


> Its about as feasible as the vietnamese fighting the US or as feasible as the afghans fighting the russians.


This is where the collective irrationality of Pakistani society lies - that Afghanistan can be replicated in Kashmir. 



> So your saying that there was no international pressure on india to start kashmir talks with pakistan?......the fighting in kashmir has raised the issue across the world and before when nobody really knew what was going on kashmir now the world is fully aware.


The question is how has all this international knowledge or awareness about Kashmir helped Pakistan in solving Kashmir in its favour or for that matter, solving Kashmir on the whole. In fact, all this hoo-ha about Kashmir has actually opened up P0K to western scrutiny and if the foreign reports are to be believed, they are not buying what Pakistan is selling in the name of Kashmir.



> ......if kashmir is part of india then why did you indians take it to the UN and why has the the world classed it as a dispute.


India's specific complaint to the UN was against the aggression of Pakistan against India. 



> I presume you have never been to pakistan and that why you keep raising the same issue of do the freedom fighters get respect........ask anybody on the forum that live near kashmir or in kashmir how much respect the people and govt the give to the freedom fighters.


Thanks again. Some members are of the opinion that Pakistanis don't support terrorism in Kashmir, simply because they reject Talibani terrorism.

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## Icarus

> JAMMU: Six Lashkar-e-Taiba militants of Pakistani origin, who had escaped from Triyath forest after a brief encounter three days ago, were killed by security forces after they tracked them down in Rajouri district of Jammu and Kashmir on Thursday.



Did they declare their nationality and affiliation with LeT before dying ? 
Last time I checked, both Indians and Pakistanis looked alike and it was impossible to tell the difference between them. So the profiling option goes down the hatch.............


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## Areesh

Choppers said:


> *Doodh Mangoge To Kheer denge ,Kashmir Mangoge To Cheeer Denge..*



Yaar kia doodh dahi ki dukan khol li tum nai. Ab aagai desi ghee aur thundi lassi bhi baicho gai. Oh bhai yeh thread kashmir par hai bhains aur us kai doodh par nahi.


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## KS

Kakgeta said:


> Did they declare their nationality and affiliation with LeT before dying ?
> Last time I checked, both Indians and Pakistanis looked alike and it was impossible to tell the difference between them. So the profiling option goes down the hatch.............



Arey yaar true the terrorists will not be carrying ID cards...But the Army and the RR have established a deep intelligence network and informer circle in Kashmir so that it is definitely possible for them to have an idea to which group the terrorists belong.


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## Frankenstein

Pride said:


> yes, Such poems are meant for fun only.
> 
> In our schools, teacher don't teach us funny quotes like "We will take Kashmir one day from India" but surely Pakistani school does..:taz



That was so funny, i cant stop laughing (Sarcasm), in my country such kind of jokes are known as chussssssssssss 

Kia chuss mari ha


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## psychedelic_renegade

> And he lost , poor chap had a tear in his eye.



O mighty internet warrior, your relentless use of keyboard brought tears to my genetically inferior eyes! One can but fathom your noob slaying skill on Internet forums!!

lol dude stop self-pawning and get a day job or something! :/


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## psychedelic_renegade

> That was so funny, i cant stop laughing (Sarcasm), in my country such kind of jokes are known as chussssssssssss



You a smart being, hadn't you clearly shown the sarcasm, I would have never got it! Man that's sarcasm as subtle as sledgehammer!


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## Prometheus

Two Indian soldiers were killed on Tuesday evening when heavy firing from Pakistan destroyed an army truck moving near the border in Jammu and Kashmir's Poonch district, military sources said.
Three soldiers were also injured in the firing by the Pakistanis from across the Line of Control (LoC) in Nangi Tikri area of Mendhar. All five victims were in the truck.
The dead men were identified as Lance Naik Atul and Lance Naik Yogesh. Their full names were not immediately available.
This is the third such incident in the area this month. The earlier firing from Pakistani troops took place May 1 and 6.
Tuesday's attack took place around 7 p.m. when heavy firing hit an Indian Army 2.5 tonner.
The firing is seen as a major ceasefire violation by Pakistani troops.
A defence ministry spokesperson in Jammu told IANS that the two soldiers died "in hostile fire"

2 Indian soldiers killed in Pakistani firing - India - ibnlive


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## IndianArmy

These Happens a lot in the border areas, Many are settled in flag meeting, many are handled like cross fire, many die, many survive, those who survive retaliate and then if they again survive, attend the flag meeting... 

But this indeed is a dirty Incident... Some cheap tactics at its best


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## Chappal Chor

lets return the favors and then do the flag meeting.


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## IndianArmy

Chappal Chor said:


> lets return the favors and then do the flag meeting.



We cannot do that, We need orders to fire across the border, only under circumstances such as to foil infiltration bid can we use our weapons, but an act of Waging war by a soldier without proper orders Would face serious Consequences .... Indian army cannot blindly fire, We are Having a systematic Line up, No Misuse of powers are acceptable

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## ptldM3

This is a serious incident, the Pakistani army needs to have higher standards and hold people accountable.


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## Chappal Chor

IndianArmy said:


> We cannot do that, We need orders to fire across the border, only under circumstances such as to foil infiltration bid can we use our weapons, but an act of Waging war by a soldier without proper orders Would face serious Consequences .... Indian army cannot blindly fire, We are Having a systematic Line up, No Misuse of powers are acceptable



But it is not we who had drawn the first blood. cant we fire even in retaliation. when they are taking head shots at us.


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## IndianArmy

Chappal Chor said:


> But it is not we who had drawn the first blood. cant we fire even in retaliation. when they are taking head shots at us.



There would have been retaliation from our side, but if they ran away , How can you chase them, but again you cannot Fire when ever you see a soldier across the LOC keeping this incident in mind and Advocate it as a retaliation...


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## Chappal Chor

IndianArmy said:


> There would have been retaliation from our side, but if they ran away , How can you chase them, but again you cannot Fire when ever you see a soldier across the LOC keeping this incident in mind and Advocate it as a retaliation...



so what can we do when they try to ambush our soldiers. kill them and run away.


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## IndianArmy

Chappal Chor said:


> so what can we do when they try to ambush our soldiers. kill them and run away.



Flag meet... The best diplomatic way to deal it.... If Indian army was let loose, then there wouldnt be such incidents happening, But By the growing menace such as this, This is bound to happen...

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## Chappal Chor

IndianArmy said:


> Flag meet... The best diplomatic way to deal it.... If Indian army was let loose, then there wouldnt be such incidents happening, But By the growing menace such as this, This is bound to happen...



I am stupid to ask this. but what actually happens in the flag meet?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Chappal Chor said:


> lets return the favors and then do the flag meeting.



Buddy clappin is done with 2 hands not one.
We saw last time....when indian bsf started firing indiscriminately.......
1 Pakistani man died.....Pak Rangers called for a flag meeting.
So think again....we still dont know the second side of the coin.


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## IndianArmy

Chappal Chor said:


> I am stupid to ask this. but what actually happens in the flag meet?



The same what happens when two diplomats of either sides meet... But in flag meet, You even warn the enemy.... Heated arguments go, and then disperse...

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## IndianArmy

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Buddy clappin is done with 2 hands not one.
> We saw last time....when indian bsf started firing indiscriminately.......
> 1 Pakistani man died.....Pak Rangers called for a flag meeting.
> So think again....we still dont know the second side of the coin.



But even before that a Jawan from our side was killed by the rangers.... and Indian army has no rights to fire across the Border without orders, otherwise he can even undergo court-martial if proved to be guilty of firing first....

But In case of Pakistan, the army has the full authority to take over the command of the region, so Now You can decide What would have happened

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## DESERT FIGHTER

IndianArmy said:


> But even before that a Jawan from our side was killed by the rangers.... *and Indian army has no rights to fire across the Border without orders*, otherwise he can even undergo court-martial if proved to be guilty of firing first....
> 
> But In case of Pakistan,* the army has the full authority to take over *the command of the region, so Now You can decide What would have happened



First Ranger are paramilitary not army.
2)If indian army doesnt have rights to cease fire i dont know who killed an innocent man last week in Pakistan?who violated ceasefire and after which Rangers demanded for a cease fire?
Clearly guilty dont demand flag meetings they try to hide their mistakes.
So ur analysis is false.

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## Imran Khan

no propegenda before ISPR report

so so sad for death of jawans rip for them

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## Chappal Chor

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> First Ranger are paramilitary not army.
> 2*)If indian army doesnt have rights to cease fire *


Indian army dont have rights to fire. 



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> i dont know who killed an innocent man last week in Pakistan?who violated ceasefire and after which Rangers demanded for a cease fire?



You need to figure out. your man got killed. 




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Clearly guilty dont demand flag meetings they try to hide their mistakes.
> So ur analysis is false.



They do it to portray themselves saints in front of everyone.


----------



## IndianArmy

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> First Ranger are paramilitary not army.
> 2)If indian army doesnt have rights to cease fire i dont know who killed an innocent man last week in Pakistan?who violated ceasefire and after which Rangers demanded for a cease fire?
> Clearly guilty dont demand flag meetings they try to hide their mistakes.
> So ur analysis is false.



Rangers are paramilitary Units which share the command and control with the Army present there, just like the BSF here.... Do you think the border is fully patrolled by rangers and BSF?? they are the second line of defense...

And rangers demanded for a cease fire or flag meet?? 

And what has an Innocent man got do do near the LOC? 
How did Pakistan ordinace factories rocket fall near the field of Punjab and that too thrice?

Question even I can ask, I am sure you wouldnt be having any replies to it, neither Your Forces had in flag meet...


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

IndianArmy said:


> Rangers are paramilitary Units which *share the command and control with the Army *present there, just like the BSF here.... Do you think the border is fully patrolled by rangers and BSF?? they are the second line of defense...
> 
> And rangers demanded for a cease fire or flag meet??
> 
> And what has an Innocent man got do do near the LOC?
> How did Pakistan ordinace factories rocket fall near the field of Punjab and that too thrice?
> 
> Question even I can ask, I am sure you wouldnt be having any replies to it, neither Your Forces had in flag meet...



No sir,
They dont have have an independent set up...they dont report to GHQ they are under interior ministry.
The man dyin was an example when u say tht BSF can violate cease fire.
I dont know abt rockets but the exchange of fire is between them both.
And it was our people who demanded flag meeting not indian bsf.So keep tht in mind.


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## Skeptic

Kakgeta said:


> Did they declare their nationality and affiliation with LeT before dying ?
> Last time I checked, both Indians and Pakistanis looked alike and it was impossible to tell the difference between them. So the profiling option goes down the hatch.............



They carry the same ID card TTP terrorists carry when they are killed by PA and the news in published and rejoiced. TTP and Pastuns also do not look very different either... oops TTP are Pashtuns.

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## IndianArmy

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> No sir,
> They dont have have an independent set up...they dont report to GHQ they are under interior ministry.



Iam wrong then, but the Rangers do share command and control with the army, Iam sure about that.... Might be Iam wrong



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> The man dyin was an example when u say tht BSF can violate cease fire.


As In my very first post I said, We have the rights to use our weapons to foil Infiltration bid, not for waging war, I was clear there...



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> I dont know abt rockets but the exchange of fire is between them both.
> And it was our people who demanded flag meeting not indian bsf.So keep tht in mind.



Absolutely wrong, when the casualities are on your side normally Rangers give the call, but when its on our side BSF makes it.... Or when there are minor skirmish, we both sit together....


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## TaimiKhan

No side is innocent. Neither Pakistanis nor Indians. 

Each one of them do the firing stuff due to many reasons. 

I have spent a lot of time in Kashmir near the border area and my brother is also now spending his tenure in Kashmir and there firing incidents happen a lot, many times no one hears about them. 

My own brother came under fire 2 times in last one year from the Indian side and then they retaliate. 

Many times the Pakistani posts which are altitude wise under an Indian post, Indians fire on it as its easier for them to see the Pakistani post and fire at it, so when such things happen, Pakistani forces order those Pakistani posts which have altitude advantage to fire on the Indian post which is under them, such measures then lead to cease fire, and it happens vice versa too.

Permission for firing is given to both sides even by the platoon commanders or company commanders and in some instances unit commanders do it, no one calls up their GHQs and ask for permission to fire. 

No disrespect for the Indian side, but even drunk soldiers have led to many firing incidents, directly or indirectly. 

So its better the unwanted bashing stuff is stopped and come to the reality of what we are and what we do on the borders.

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## KS

R.I.P martyrs


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## Icarus

Skeptic said:


> They carry the same ID card TTP terrorists carry when they are killed by PA and the news in published and rejoiced. TTP and Pastuns also do not look very different either... oops TTP are Pashtuns.



Trying to be funny are we ? Did you even know that the F.C is raised completely from the tribal areas, so they are all Pushtuns as well, if we were killing Pushtuns in our military ops, we would have the type of negative image IA has in Kashmir, PA wouldn't be hailed as saviours. 
And if someone shoots at you from a cave and runs at you with a suicide jacket, we know that they are TTP, since these don't seem to be the favourite pass times of the local population.


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## Bagee

IndianArmy said:


> These Happens a lot in the border areas, Many are settled in flag meeting, many are handled like cross fire, many die, many survive, those who survive retaliate and then if they again survive, attend the flag meeting...
> 
> But this indeed is a dirty Incident... Some cheap tactics at its best



STRIKE IN A WAY THAT THEY ARE NOT ABLE TO DO IT AGAIN....


----------



## KS

Kakgeta said:


> Trying to be funny are we ?


Is there any harm in it..?



Kakgeta said:


> Did you even know that the F.C is raised completely from the tribal areas, so they are all Pushtuns as well, if we were killing Pushtuns in our military ops, we would have the type of negative image IA has in Kashmir, PA wouldn't be hailed as saviours.



And btw did u know that the militancy in Kashmir is now fought with J&K police with the help of RR who are exclusively selected from Kashmiris..?



Kakgeta said:


> And if someone shoots at you from a cave and runs at you with a suicide jacket, we know that they are TTP, since these don't seem to be the favourite pass times of the local population.



Similarly wen someones wearing pyjama kurta(common dress in the region) lobs a grenade at the police,or someone who camps in the forests with Kalshnikovs,rocket launchers,grenades etc do u think they have exactly come on a picnic..?


p.s.: I ve replied to ur post earlier that Army,RR and the JK police run a deep network of informers and they get it corrrectly 90 times out of 100.


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## Icarus

Such incidents are common, just last night Indians started firing at a Pakistani post in Sialkot, many a times Pakistani soldiers have also been killed, I believe the last sepoy died by Indian firing near attari, little over a month ago.
RIP soldiers.............................


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## Icarus

> Is there any harm in it..?



Not when you are talking to a guy who say 150 fine men fall in that very war.



> And btw did u know that the militancy in Kashmir is now fought with J&K police with the help of RR who are exclusively selected from Kashmiris..?


 
I do, never denied that.



> Similarly wen someones wearing pyjama kurta(common dress in the region) lobs a grenade at the police,or someone who camps in the forests with Kalshnikovs,rocket launchers,grenades etc do u think they have exactly come on a picnic..?



The article quoted spoke nothing about weapons, that's why I criticized it.



> p.s.: I ve replied to ur post earlier that Army,RR and the JK police run a deep network of informers and they get it corrrectly 90 times out of 100.



Read that, but the alleged terrorists were killed on site, there was not time for informers to identify them.


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## Icarus

> Iam wrong then, but the Rangers do share command and control with the army, Iam sure about that.... Might be Iam wrong



Officers are posted from the army to rangers, however the officers then become responsibility of the ministry of interior rather than ministry of defence and GHQ. There is co-ordination between the two but they do not share command and control. There is Maj.Gen who oversees the rangers, thats about it.


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## IndianArmy

Kakgeta said:


> Officers are posted from the army to rangers, however the officers then become responsibility of the ministry of interior rather than ministry of defence and GHQ. There is co-ordination between the two but they do not share command and control. There is Maj.Gen who oversees the rangers, thats about it.



Oh I see...... So then How do they co-ordinate an Attack, If these to do not Share command and Control? Seems A bit odd to me...


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## Icarus

IndianArmy said:


> Oh I see...... So then How do they co-ordinate an Attack, If these to do not Share command and Control? Seems A bit odd to me...



Rangers is basically a second line force, it is not their job to attack, rather, it is their job to patrol the borders during peace time and hold the line in case of war. Strategy is chalked out through consultation between the two forces but Command and Control is not shared.


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## Pride

Frankenstein said:


> That was so funny, i cant stop laughing (Sarcasm), in my country such kind of jokes are known as chussssssssssss
> 
> Kia chuss mari ha



After reading such post, I believe now you have realized that how a stupid post is responded..


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## IndianArmy

Kakgeta said:


> Rangers is basically a second line force, it is not their job to attack, rather, it is their job to patrol the borders during peace time and hold the line in case of war. Strategy is chalked out through consultation between the two forces but Command and Control is not shared.



No I mean an attack In case of Minor skirmish, They absolutely have to take orders from the army, So they obviously have to share command and Control with the army....

Strategy are pre planned, but There might be a quote of law which permits this under serious issues....


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## RobbieS

Why The Valley Blooms

A LIFETIME OF DEATH AND LOSS IS DRIVING THOUSANDS OF YOUNG KASHMIRIS TO DRUG ABUSE. PARVAIZ BUKHARI REPORTS ON A DISTURBING NEW EPIDEMIC

UNTIL RECENTLY, Akhtar, 29, a resident of Srinagar, the capital of Jammu and Kashmir, could not start his day until he popped eight tablets of Spasmo Proxyvon, a painkiller, into his empty stomach before hitting the road with his auto-rickshaw.
image
High yield A Narcotics Control Bureau worker destroys poppy crops in Pulwama district (below); an addict receives counselling at a Srinagar de-addiction centre (right)
Photo: Javed Dar

Like him, Bashir, 54, a businessman in the saffron-rich town of Pampore outside Srinagar, would not eat for as long as six days in a row. Till he enrolled himself in a rehabilitation programme recently, Bashir would down half-a-litre of whisky every morning. A widow in the south Kashmir town of Pulwama still gives her teenage son money every day to buy cannabis, fearing he might otherwise become a militant.

The three drug abusers (names changed) reveal the tip of an iceberg. Two decades of conflict have ravaged the Kashmir valley, taking a huge toll on the mental health of its people. Indeed, the increasing consumption of medicinal opiates in Kashmir is emerging as a worrying trend. As more and more land comes under the cultivation of poppy and cannabis every year, a burgeoning number of people are falling to drug abuse in myriad ways.

Across Kashmir, tens of thousands of young men and women who have failed to cope with the cumulative effects of trauma in their daily lives are escaping to drug abuse and alcoholism. The student community that has come about amid the continuing socio-political disturbance and violence in Kashmir is the worst hit. De-addiction counsellors estimate that 40 percent of school and college students in the Valley have taken to drug abuse as a way to cope with distress.

*There could be at least 60,000 substance abusers (drug addicts) in Srinagar alone, says Saiba Verma, a doctoral student from Cornell University in the US researching the emerging scenario in Kashmir. The population of Srinagar is about 14 lakh. Drug abuse is evenly spreading across the rural and urban areas in the Valley.
WE ARE ABOUT TO LOSE A GENERATION TO DRUG ABUSE, SAYS DR MUZAFFAR KHAN. THE YOUTH ARE VULNERABLE*

Predictably, the government, as well as society, brush the catastrophe under the carpet. No comprehensive survey has been undertaken to deal with it. Most doctors and psychiatrists say 70 to 80 percent of the addicts who report for help use easily available prescription drugs and substances like alcoholbased cough syrup, painkillers, eraser fluid, nail polish and even shoe polish. The rest are alcoholics or use locallygrown cannabis mixed with tobacco.

We are about to lose an entire generation to drug abuse, says Dr Muzaffar Khan, a psychiatrist who operates a de-addiction centre run by the state police inside the premises of its control room in Srinagar. The socio-political disturbance is the main reason that has made the youth most vulnerable. Most addicts are in the 18 to 35 age group.

Driving an auto-rickshaw, Akhtar would often find himself caught in traumatic situations ranging from harsh cordon and search operations by Indian security forces to grenade attacks by militants. By 1998, he was suffering from continual headaches and was increasingly taking painkillers.
image

Then another driver suggested I take something stronger, he says. I started taking a pill strong enough. Akhtar did not know he had become an addict till he found himself misbehaving with his family. And he would not eat.

The state health department has virtually no de-addiction and rehabilitation services. In distress, Akhtar started looking for help and found Raahat, a 12-bed de-addiction centre run by an NGO, All J&K Youth Welfare. On the very first day they chained me up as if I was a prisoner, Akhtar says. Akhtar somehow fled Raahat, but volunteers from the centre came with the police and dragged him back. He left Raahat 40 days later, after spending Rs 30,000. Akhtar took to drugs again.

Ironically, the NGO is not even aware of the basic rules running a rehabilitation centre. We have to be very strict with the addicts, its general secretary, S Shabir, told TEHELKA. Patients in psychiatric condition sometimes need to be tied to chains with the consent of a relative. Sometimes we do ask for the police to come with us to handle an unwilling patient. Raahat has only a part-time technical staff of five: two doctors and nurses each, and one counsellor.

AKHTAR IS now recovering in the police de-addiction centre, which the police opened in 2008 from their welfare fund. So far it has counselled more the 3,500 addicts and treated 185 from across Kashmir. But there are thousands like Akhtar who do not have anywhere to go for help.

People with drug dependency problems dread going to the only and extremely overburdened psychiatric hospital in Srinagar. They lodge us with mentally deranged and mad people there, says a patient at the police deaddiction centre. The only other de-addiction centre is a two-bed facility inte - grated in the district hospital at Baramulla in north Kashmir.

Dr Marghoob, a leading psychiatrist, says counselling and rehabilitation clinics are needed in every nook and corner of Kashmir. According to him, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) is the main reason driving people to drugs.
ONE REHAB CENTRE CHAINED A PATIENT, THREATENED HIM, AND HAD THE POLICE DRAG HIM BACK AFTER HE ESCAPED

I have seen many patients who have not been able to sleep because of trauma and they resort to easily available drugs in the market and then become dependent on them, says Marghoob. This is a dominant pattern with people across socio-economic classes who have seen violent deaths from close or lost family members to the armed conflict.

Medicinal opiates like codeine, Corex and Rexcof and prescription drugs like Alprax and Spasmo Proxyvon are available across the counter in medical shops that have mushroomed over 15 years. Despite being banned elsewhere in the country, variants of these drugs are sold in huge quantities in Kashmir.
image
Weed killers Measures to curb the illegal narcotics trade in Kashmir have proven largely ineffective in the past

The young prefer these drugs because they dont smell like charas or opium do, says Yasir Zehgir, a volunteer with the police de-addiction centre who took up this work after his friend became an addict.

But prescription drugs are not the only worry. Poppy and cannabis cultivation has been steadily growing since the mid-1990s, after the law enforcement agencies completely withdrew because of the militancy. But the trend continued even after the militancy waned in 2004. Experts say that large-scale unemployment and poverty contributed to the growth in the cultivation of these lucrative crops in the south Kashmir belt from Pulwama to Anantnag.

*Between 1995 and 2000, the area witnessed alternating floods and drought making normal agriculture almost impossible in vast and inaccessible areas. In the absence of government help, farmers switched to cannabis, further spreading its abuse. People took to charas after their crops failed every year after 1995, said Fayaz Ahmed, a lawyer who helps addicts in police cases against them.*

*The police have now launched a poppy destruction drive which has been successful in Pulwama, where this year land under its cultivation has been brought down to less than 25 acres compared to 750 in 2009. But in the adjacent districts of Shopian and Anantnag, cannabis cultivation remains unabated.*

Jammu & Kashmir police Chief Farooq Ahmed admits that more and more land is still coming under poppy and cannabis cultivation every year. One day we keep peace in a particular area, another day we are busy attending to law and order situations and most of the time the police force is dealing with counterinsurgency, he says.

*However, the key reason for governments failure to check proliferating drug abuse is that the revenue authorities and the narcotics control department are largely comatose in preforming their role to curb drug cultivation. Section 133A in the Revenue Act empowers the authorities to seize any land under illegal cultivation. A one-time fine of Rs 5,000 can be imposed on the owner along with Rs 500 every day till the land is restored to its original crop. This provision has never been invoked in Kashmir, even before the present scenario emerged, says Farooq.*

While poppy is sold to markets outside, mainly through truck drivers who come from outside the state, in raw forms like the powdered fukki, a substantial portion of charas extracted from the cannabis crop is consumed locally. Police say most of it goes to Punjab and Delhi while a tiny proportion of the refined drugs are sold in Mumbai at very high prices. Fortunately, growers in Kashmir do not extract opium from their poppy crop, otherwise it will be uncontrollable, says a senior police official who wishes to remain anonymous.

In the summer of 2006, businessman Bashir was inside a mosque near his house when men of a pro-government counter-insurgent militia led by the dreaded militant Papa Kashtawari barged in and dragged his neighbour and friend out. Bashir witnessed his friend being shot dead in the mosque compound. He rushed to get a vehicle to take his friend to hospital.

The militants he knew dragged another person from his house nearby and shot him dead too. Witnessing the violent incident, Bashir trembled and collapsed. I took to alcohol and could not live without it until four months back, he says. He sought help after Kashtawaris arrest in 2008 and finally enrolled in the police de-addiction centre in Srinagar. It took Bashir over a year to end his alcohol addiction. Bashir says he knows at least 30 other men in his neighbourhood in a similar condition.

A 2006 STUDY by a team of experts from Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) operating in Kashmir undertook a sample study about the mental health conditions in the region. *It concluded that the suicide rate in Kashmir had risen a whopping 400 times in 15 years due to the armed conflict. That rate is now nearly twice Indias average of 20 per 100,000 population.*

[The] mental and physical health needs are high, while the coping mechanisms of individuals are predominantly dysfunctional, the report said. Even with a definitive end to violence, it could be expected that a substantial number of people would need support to overcome their problems. This assumption is confirmed by our findings of high mental health needs despite the decrease of violence since 2004.

In south Kashmir, youths in entire villages have taken to drug abuse. On an average day, police stations are locking up groups of drug peddlers and addicts in their attempts to curb the phenomenon. These youth are becoming a social menace and the village elders have started reporting them to the army, on the pretext of having connections to militancy, after they failed to intervene socially. But this is driving distress levels among the youth further up and renders them more susceptible to exploitation by vested interests from all sides, says a top police official. Like the unending cycle of militancy in the Valley, drug abuse is now becoming a vicious cycle.

Tehelka - India's Independent Weekly News Magazine


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## Kompromat

*Army presence causing HR abuse: Malik 


AI team calls on separatists
Focus on Indian occupation: Mirwaiz*

Ishfaq Ahmad Shah
Srinagar, May 18: JKLF chairman Mohammad Yasin Malik, Hurriyat (M) chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and leaders of JKLF (R) met the two-member delegation of Amnesty International on Tuesday and apprised them about the human rights violations being allegedly committed by troopers in the State.



A two member Amnesty delegation comprising Ramesh Gopala Krishnan and Bikramjit Batra are on visit to Kashmir for the first time since militancy broke out here.

The two-member AI delegation visited Maisuma residence of JKLF chairman Mohammad Yasin Malik, who briefed them about the HR violations issue and present political situation in Kashmir.

Thousands of people have disappeared in Kashmir. I told them to give prime importance to disappearance issue. There are hundreds of women in Kashmir, whose husbands are missing. They dont know whether their husbands are alive or they are widows. Same is the case with thousands of children who dont know if their fathers are alive or dead. So this issue needs to be prioritized, JKLF chairman told media persons after the meeting.

He further said, I also informed that that during our signature campaign we came to know the Army perpetuates grave human rights violations in the valley especially in the rural areas. The army presence is causing HR abuses in the State. It should be another aspect that this organization needs to focus on.

Terming Amnesty International delegations visit to Kashmir as a welcome step, Malik said, Through their visit, world will come to know about the suffering of Kashmiri people.

He urged the Amnesty to press India to repeal draconian laws like AFSPA giving impunity to troopers.

Malik said that the delegation has assured action on these issues. They have told us that their primary focus will be on the Public Safety Acts, he added.

Earlier, the delegation visited the Nageen residence of Hurriyat (M) chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq in the morning, where they were briefed about the historical background and the struggle of Kashmiri people for right to self determination.

To legalize their occupation, India is committing grave human rights violations in Kashmir since 1990, Mirwaiz informed them

I told them that lakhs of people have sacrificed their lives for the Kashmir cause and Indian forces have committed grave human rights violations to curb the movement. Indian troopers have killed lakhs of innocent Kashmiri and widowed thousands of women and orphaned thousands of children. They have robbed thousands of Kashmiri women of their chastity. Even today the Indian troopers are committing grave human rights violations in every part of Kashmir, Mirwaiz said after his talks with the AI delegation. 

Meanwhile, a delegation of JKLF (R), Farooq Ahmad Dar and Javaid Ahmad Mir met the AI delegation at its party headquarters in Rajbagh.

In a statement issued here, a spokesman of the outfit said the leaders informed the delegation about the human rights violations taking place in the Valley. Besides forced disappearances, India troopers are perpetuating every sort of human rights violations here in the valley, the leaders informed the delegation.

The AI delegation also met members of Muslim league. Our leaders appraised them about the killing, rapes, demolition of property, booking of youth under PSA and other grave human rights violations being committed by Indian troopers in the Valley, a spokesman of Muslim League said. 

http://www.risingkashmir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=23509&Itemid=1

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## IndianArmy

When I was there, We used to take care of the cute little children there when there parents used to go for work, we gave them education, we used to switch on the tele vision for them.... There were many separatists at that time, but the Normal kashmiri's are more than happy of us being there....

I wonder why this issue is given lot of importance...

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## TaimiKhan

IndianArmy said:


> No I mean an attack In case of Minor skirmish, They absolutely have to take orders from the army, So they obviously have to share command and Control with the army....
> 
> Strategy are pre planned, but There might be a quote of law which permits this under serious issues....



In minor skirmishes like the one reported, they are done on their own by the Rangers, Army has nothing to do with it. 

As said, Rangers are a para-military force and their primary role is protection and surveillance of the border during peace time. In case of war, Army gets deployed and goes to the border to man it. Ranger guys are with them but used in secondary role as looking after areas which may not be hot bed during war situations or even be used as defensive troops in the rear where chances of a break in the lines is most probable. 

But in such skirmishes, neither they ask the Army to fire, nor they consult what to be done. 

They are independent on their own, as they are led by Army officers, who know their job and what to do.


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## Icarus

IndianArmy said:


> No I mean an attack In case of Minor skirmish, They absolutely have to take orders from the army, So they obviously have to share command and Control with the army....
> 
> Strategy are pre planned, but There might be a quote of law which permits this under serious issues....



Minor border skirmishes are spontaneous and strategies have been planned to deal with them in advance, but not by the army, instead commandants of different sectors get together with the general and work it out, army has no role unless there is a joint action or in case of war.


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## IndianArmy

Its good to know that they are free, BSF should also be given such powers.... Instead of sharing the command and control although a paramilitary, thanks for the Info men


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## Pride

Yes, of course there are clear violation human rights by IA. This is not good to kill every time hired freedom fighters on our land..


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## Icarus

IndianArmy said:


> Its good to know that they are free, BSF should also be given such powers.... Instead of sharing the command and control although a paramilitary, thanks for the Info men



Nice chatting with you...........


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## Windjammer

ptldM3 said:


> This is a serious incident, the Pakistani army needs to have higher standards and hold people accountable.



Our standards are better than most, let that be known,

When it comes to such incidents, Indian Army is no saint as has been proved recently in Sialkot sector.

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## username

IndianArmy said:


> When I was there, We used to take care of the cute little children there when there parents used to go for work, we gave them education, we used to switch on the tele vision for them.... There were many separatists at that time, but the Normal kashmiri's are more than happy of us being there....
> 
> I wonder why this issue is given lot of importance...



Major Sir, First time ever I am hearing about the status of the acceptance by normal people from a person who was in Kashmir. Thanks.


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## CONNAN

dude as said by the moderator in his post if we get a chance we will shoot you and if you get a chance you will shoot us its all in the game neither we nor you are saints

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## IndianArmy

Kakgeta said:


> Nice chatting with you...........



Thanks, I was surprised because most of the Military's around the globe have the Same pattern as we follow, when I heard you guys, I was surprised that pakistan was making its own way.... Better to be Different...


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## IndianArmy

username said:


> Major Sir, First time ever I am hearing about the status of the acceptance by normal people from a person who was in Kashmir. Thanks.



Normal people are some times against us, Many Innoscents die in between cross fire, some major failure in intelligence inputs would act against the innoscent.... Separatists Give assistance to terrorists.... 

So the normal kashmiris are feared, as we check them daily, we get a bit harsh, I myself accept it, but that is for there well being, we cannot take chances can we?

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## Kompromat

*Human Rights Violations in Indian Held Kashmir *

Recently, the International People&#8217;s Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice disclosed that 2,700 unmarked graves with nearly 3,000 bodies across 55 villages in three districts, Bandipore, Baramullah and Kupwara of Indian Held Kashmir (IHK) have been discovered. Some of the mass graves contain 3 to 17 bodies. The Tribunal claimed that the graves could be of those missing from custody of Indian troops. The report is based on research between November 2006 and November 2009 and has been authored by prominent human rights activists of India and occupied Kashmir. Last year too, the group had found 1,000 unmarked graves in the Kashmir valley. Dr. Angana Chatterjee of the Tribunal said, &#8220;The graves might be containing the bodies of the 8,000 people who disappeared during 20 years of the armed conflict&#8221;. The history of atrocities in Indian held Kashmir is as old as the dispute itself. Similarly, the High Court Bar Association of Occupied Kashmir maintained that more than 100,000 Kashmiris had been killed by Indian troops in the last two decades, while 10,000 persons were disappeared in custody. Similarly, it said that more than 300,000 Kashmiri&#8217;s were tortured in jails and interrogation centers.

Ironically, human rights are violated on large scale in the so-called world&#8217;s largest democracy. To crush the Kashmiri Liberation movement, India has employed various techniques including black laws. Prevention of Terrorism Act (POTA), Terrorist and Disruptive Activities Act 1990 (TADA) and Armed Forces Special Powers Act 1990, (AFSPA) are enforced in Kashmir despite the fact that they contravenes the Indian Constitution and international law. These laws violate the basic human rights such as right to life, the right to liberty and security of the person and the right to remedy. The Armed Forces (Jammu & Kashmir) Special Powers enforced on 10 September, 1990 authorized even a non-commissioned officer to search any place, fire at any person (and kill), or arrest on the basis of suspicion. TADA gives security forces and armed forces special powers for unauthorized administrative detention without formal charges or trial for up to one year. Under POTA, any person can be put into prison for not disclosing the information that can prevent an act of terrorism.

The International humanitarian organizations such as Amnesty International condemned these draconian laws. According to Amnesty International TADA gives a license to kill. Wide powers of arrest granted under TADA, combined with the absence of fundamental legal safeguards for detainees, create a climate, which encourages abuse of power and facilitates illegal and secret detention. AFSPA violates provisions of International human rights law, including the right to life, the right to remedy and the rights to be free from arbitrary deprivation of liberty and from torture and cruel inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. The Amnesty International is of the view that the POTA continue to be used to detain political opponents and members of minority populations.

Currently, 700,000 Indian army troops are deployed in occupied Kashmir to crush the Kashmiri freedom movement. The Indian occupational forces have killed more than 91,168 innocent Kashmiris, 38,450 rendered disable or crippled for life and 30,000 women have been raped and molested. More than 105,238 hoses and shops have been destroyed and 106,755 have become orphaned in Jammu and Kashmir, since 1989. According to the Association of Parents of Disappeared Persons 8,000 to 10,000 Kashmiris disappeared mysteriously in Indian Held Kashmir from 1989-2008 while the Asian Centre for Human Rights put the figure at six thousand. Up till July 2006 number of innocent Kashmiris in Indian custody accounted to 3,735.

The condition of Kashmiris detained in different jails of the occupied Kashmir is worse than that of those in Abu Gharib prison in Iraq. The interrogation methods and manners used in these jails are ghastly. Lord Eric Aveybury, Chairman, British Parliamentary Human Rights Group has described Indian atrocities as, &#8220;The atrocities committed by Indian imperialists in occupied Kashmir surpass brutalities of apartheid regime in South Africa or of Nazis 50 years ago&#8221;.

Arundhati Roy, a well respected Indian writer, while speaking in New York in May 2006, said: &#8220;The biggest myth of all times is that India is a democracy. In reality, it is not. Several states in India are on the verge of civil war&#8230;. In the Kashmir valley alone, some 80,000 people have been killed. In Iraq, there are 1, 50,000 military personnel whereas in Kashmir valley there are some 7, 00,000&#8221;.

Human rights organizations are routinely denied permission to investigate in a free manner. Media-men are being attacked and arrested. Humanitarian relief is limited as external agencies are not being allowed to provide medical assistance and other relief materials. Recently, the Amnesty International has requested President Barack Obama to help end human rights abuses in IHK. Even a five member European Tribunal recently expressed dissatisfaction about the prevailing human rights situation in IHK and urged India to improve this situation.

Many cases of human rights violation stem from abuse of power under repressive laws and police/army brutality unleashed against the Kashmiri people. They are taken into custody for acts that are legitimized by international human rights standards of free speech, freedom of association and assembly, and freedom of the press. The Indian government&#8217;s failure to account for these abuses and to take rigorous action against its forces responsible for murder, rape and torture speaks volumes of its fake posture of secular and democratic state. These atrocities are true reflection of its policy of condoning human rights violations by the Indian security forces in Kashmir that needs to be addressed, the sooner the better.

Human Rights Violations in Indian Held Kashmir


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## Kompromat

IndianArmy said:


> When I was there, We used to take care of the cute little children there when there parents used to go for work, we gave them education, we used to switch on the tele vision for them.... There were many separatists at that time, but the Normal kashmiri's are more than happy of us being there....
> 
> I wonder why this issue is given lot of importance...



What about this ?


*Mass found Graves in Kashmir *



Srinagar, Dec 2: A human rights group Wednesday claimed to have found 2700 unmarked and mass graves containing bodies of *2943 people across 55 villages of north Kashmir districts of Kupwara*, Varmul and Bandipora.
The International Peoples Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice, a rights watchdog, released a preliminary report Buried Evidence: Unknown, Unmarked, and Mass Graves in which the revelations were made.

Releasing the report, convenor of the Tribunal, Dr Angana P Chatterji said the graveyards investigated have bodies of those murdered in encounters and fake encounters from 1990 to 2009. The graves include bodies of extra-judicial, summary and arbitrary executions, as well as massacres by the Indian military and paramilitary forces, she said and added that of these graves 2373 (87.9 percent) were unnamed. 154 contained two bodies each and 23 contained more than two bodies. Within these 23 graves, the number of bodies ranged from 3 to 17.

She said that post-death, the bodies of the victims were routinely handled by military, para-military and police personnel. The bodies were then brought to secret graveyards by Kashmir police personnel. The graves were dug by local gravediggers and caretakers, buried individually when possible and specifically not en-mass, in keeping with Islamic religious sensibilities.

The report has been already submitted to the Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, the UN Commission on Involuntarily Disappearances, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. The Tribunal asked the state and the central governments to enable independent and transparent investigations into unknown, unmarked and mass graves, drawing upon varied, credible and international expertise, and institute an independent and transparent commission of inquiry. There is bound to be a reasonable correlation between these graves and the people who have disappeared.

*If the government of India is serious about Kashmir resolution, here is our call of action, said Dr Chatterji, who teaches Anthropology at California Institute of Integral Studies.*

*The report has examined 50 alleged encounter killings by the troops. Of these, 49 people were labelled militants/foreign insurgents by the security forces. However, the Tribunal found that 47 people were killed in fake encounters and only one was a local militant, she added.*

The report comes 19 months after the Association of Parents of Disappeared People (APDP) released its report on nameless graves. Titled Facts Under Ground, the report gave details of 940 to 1000 nameless graves. The report was compiled after a two-year survey conducted by volunteers of the APDP in three tehsils, including Uri and Varmul in north Kashmir.

Flanked by human rights activists Guatam Navlakha, Pervez Imroz and Zahir-ud-Din, Dr Chatterji said these unmarked graves have been placed next to fields, schools and homes, largely on community land and their effect on the local community is daunting.

If the independent investigations were to be undertaken in all 10 districts, it is reasonable to assume that 8000 disappearances since 1989 would correlate with the number of bodies in unknown, unmarked and mass graves, she said. The Association of Parents of Disappeared Persons in Kashmir says there are 8000 people who have been subjected to enforced disappearance.

She said the photographs and the first information reports pertaining to those buried in unknown, unmarked, and mass graves across Jammu and Kashmir that are reportedly kept in police custody must be rendered into the public domain so that claimants may pursue their claim.

The international community and institutions have not examined the supposition of crimes against humanity in J&K. The UN and its member states have remained ineffective in containing and halting the adverse consequences of the militarization, she added.
(from Greater Kashmir)

Mass Graves in Kashmir | World Pulse

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## Kompromat

There is no running away from the Fact that Indian forces are commiting attrocities in Kashmir.


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## IndianArmy

@Black Blood: As I have told you some serious False Intelligence Inputs go against the Innoscents , But these grave have 80&#37; terrorists... I who spent my life there say that , Its difficult to find terrorists and encounter them, I hate to tell that, arms and ammunitions are hidden in masjids... so tell me, If Indian army openly searches masjid, the people get fed up, but you should also see that we are doing our duty, who support that are always enemys of nation and its our duty to kill them...


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## IndianArmy

Black Blood said:


> There is no running away from the Fact that Indian forces are commiting attrocities in Kashmir.



No one is running away, We have have infact commited many sins there, but all I want to say is, those of whom you give your prayers do Not deserve that...

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## KS

Black Blood said:


> What about this ?
> 
> 
> *Mass found Graves in Kashmir *
> 
> 
> 
> Srinagar, Dec 2: A human rights group Wednesday claimed to have found 2700 unmarked and mass graves containing bodies of *2943 people across 55 villages of north Kashmir districts of Kupwara*, Varmul and Bandipora.




What are the odds that those 2400 odd are the bodies of Hindu Pandits butchered by the terrorists..? huh
Was anything written on the bodies that this is a muslim killed by the Indian army..?
Shall i give links describing the massacres of the Kashmiri Pandits by ur "innocent frredom fighters"..?


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## Chappal Chor

Windjammer said:


> Our standards are better than most, let that be known,



Like whom



Windjammer said:


> When it comes to such incidents, Indian Army is no saint as has been proved recently in Sialkot sector.



The time for saints is over. Ghandhian philosphy works fine with those who deserve it. We follow up slap once and get 2 back these days,


----------



## Patriot

ptldM3 said:


> This is a serious incident, the Pakistani army needs to have higher standards and hold people accountable.


It's not one sided.Both sides fire artillery on each side specially at LOC.There was a time when Indians used to fire all the time towards LOC..

---------- Post added at 10:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 AM ----------




ptldM3 said:


> This is a serious incident, the Pakistani army needs to have higher standards and hold people accountable.


It's not one sided.Both sides fire artillery on each side specially at LOC.There was a time when Indians used to fire all the time towards LOC..Anyway, I would not be surprised if Pakistan Rangers (border forces) were returning the favor.


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## KS

Kakgeta said:


> Not when you are talking to a guy who say 150 fine men fall in that very war.



150 men do not fall..They live in our hearts forever. *:INDIAN FLAG:*






Kakgeta said:


> I do, never denied that.



Buddy If u accept then were do the arguments of Pakistanis saying Kashmir is occupied by a foreign,Kuffar army go..?






Kakgeta said:


> The article quoted spoke nothing about weapons, that's why I criticized it.



Wen the word Terrorist is there it self-implies that they had weapons.
Or do terrorists have lollipops in their hand..?






Kakgeta said:


> Read that, but the alleged terrorists were killed on site, there was not time for informers to identify them.


Fine u read that..but u didn understand that...Its not like u kill a terrorist and then the informer comes and identifies them.
The Army or the RR would get *PRIOR* info of this much terrorists from this organisation are hiding here..or something like that...hope u got it...

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## Windjammer

Karthic Sri said:


> What are the odds that those 2400 odd are the bodies of Hindu Pandits butchered by the terrorists..? huh
> Was anything written on the bodies that this is a muslim killed by the Indian army..?
> Shall i give links describing the massacres of the Kashmiri Pandits by ur "innocent frredom fighters"..?



If it were say Hindu Pandits, it would have been more convenient to burn any evidence.


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## Windjammer

Chappal Chor said:


> Like whom


 As i said we set our own standards and they are better than most.



> The time for saints is over. Ghandhian philosphy works fine with those who deserve it. We follow up slap once and get 2 back these days,



I keenly await that movie.


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## Kompromat

Karthic Sri said:


> What are the odds that those 2400 odd are the bodies of Hindu Pandits butchered by the terrorists..? huh
> Was anything written on the bodies that this is a muslim killed by the Indian army..?
> Shall i give links describing the massacres of the Kashmiri Pandits by ur "innocent frredom fighters"..?



Read the Report first !


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## samika

Ok no need to start war of words here. It happens all the time, as many Indians are claiming that soldiers need order from high commands is just in books. How can you expect a soldier to be so disciplined?

Though it is sad, but everyone looks for chance to shoot. We aren't very innocent.


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## KS

Windjammer said:


> If it were say Hindu Pandits, it would have been more convenient to burn any evidence.



See my argument is also logical...unmarked graves...both sides have killed..
So hw cum ur damn sure that they r Kashmiri muslims only and not Hindus...?

---------- Post added at 04:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 PM ----------




jazzy_superior said:


> he was preparing for BS..



It seems u too followed him.


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## dabong1

username said:


> hmmm... For Russians as well as US they were not preserving their own land, they invaded a foreign country. So this is not a comparision at all.



The comparision is spot on.....the indian army invaded kashmir and the kashmiris are fighting to expel the invader.





username said:


> Dude, there is no need for terrorism to highlight if you think there is an issue. Just for highlighting the issue Pakistan is slaying its own citizens, this is what is unacceptable.



We tried the the democratic route and you rigged the elections so that leaves only the gun.
India sending its citizens dressed in army uniforms to get killed in kashmir is a disgrace.





username said:


> hmmm... this was discussed in so many threads and they went no where, anyways my 2 cents India never wants anybody to interfere in Kashmir, not even the UN.



Its not a question of you want ,but a question of if you will forfill your obligations that where promised to the kashmiris.
The debate on kashmir will always end up on the kashmiris getting the right of self determination which is something you guys know is where all your talk falls apart.




username said:


> Yes I have never been to Pakistan and I did not get any source at all from your government saying that your so called freedom fighters are getting even two cents from Pakistan.



Well yout totally wrong.




username said:


> Nope not at all, it is all defence expenditures to protect our own country. And those expenditures are listed out in budget by the government elected by the people (anyways defence expenditure or Kashmir had never been the issues highlighted for election by any party in India).



Again kashmir is not part of your country so logic does not count. 




username said:


> We have already been over this, I asked for any educated people (you yourself said Doctors, Engineers, etc..) participating in your so called armed struggle, but you could not get one for me, so forget it.



As i said before google it but heres aquick few examples

Ilyas Kashmiri (militant) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maulana Masood Azhar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Theres two well know persons that fought in kashmir with an education......i bet now you want me to list freedom fighters with PHds?


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## dabong1

Karthic Sri said:


> Cmon Mr.Dabong....For the Vietnamese there was the mighty USSR and the Chinese backing it..and for the Afghans there was the USA backing it.......But for Kashmir...?
> Dont say Pakista unless u have the mental fortitude to equate Pakistan with either the US or USSR.
> And in our case both the US and Russia support our position on Kashmir.



What i find funny is that you have the mental fortitude to equate india with either the US or USSR.




Karthic Sri said:


> Nobody in the world is concerned abt the Kashmiris dear...The international community is concerned abt the nuclear weapons in the hands of Pakistan and India and how this region will become a international nuclear dumping ground in case of a war..that y they r pressuring.



But you fail to mention the nukes came about becauce of the kashmir issue and if theres a war it will be for reason to do with kashmir.
Thats why the world wants the UN ro sort the issue out of kashmir.




Karthic Sri said:


> We took the case to UN because that fool Nehru believed in non-violence and a peaceful slution to all problems.
> And thts the single biggest mistake we have done on the Kashmir issue.
> Ahh Hw much i wish a Sardar Patel or a Subhash Chandra Bose had been the Prime min isters of India.



Nehru invaded kashmir and other states also....he was never into non violence.



Karthic Sri said:


> We ve been protecting them for the past 63 years friend.



And we have been trying to give the people of kashmir a taste of true freedom for the last 63 years.






Karthic Sri said:


> Why shuld i care even my hair as to wat ppl in Pakistan think abt the terrorists..?For Indians they r terrorists and are dealt *** such.Period.



The same way we dont care what you indian call the occupation army in kashmir.....to us there all ****.





Karthic Sri said:


> I dont care *my tax money* being spent in "occupying" Kashmir....Why do u care..?



I dont care for what you indians do with your money as long it its spend on killing innocent kashmiri people.....then i do care.




Karthic Sri said:


> They wuld be doing a even greater help if they allow these terrorists to live a little longer rather than making them come to india and get killed in the hands of the RR,J&K poilice.



The indian occupation forces are just target practice.

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## Jazzbot

*Amnesty International to assess human rights scenario in Kashmir*

Srinagar, May 19 (ANI): A two-member team of Amnesty International met Separatist Hurriyat leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq here and discussed various aspects to assess the state of human rights in the valley.

The team, comprising Bikram J. Batra and Ramesh Gopal Krishen arrived on Monday on a six-day visit to assess the human rights situation and note instances of human rights violations in the state.


"They should responsibly assess the situation and condemn the violations and take up the issue with Central government. And if the Government does not respond then they should make it public that despite their repeated approach to the government, the latter has remained silent," said Farooq.

"We want that this organisation should bring out the real situation, make it clear and take a stand on the issue then," he added.

The Amnesty members said they would be meeting all sections of the people to obtain first hand information of any violation of human rights.

"The purpose of the visit is to get a better understanding of the human right situation here. We are meeting with all the key activists, political actors, government officials, lawyers and people who have suffered from human right violations," said Batra. (ANI)

Source: _Amnesty International to assess human rights scenario in Kashmir_


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## Skeptic

Kakgeta said:


> Trying to be funny are we ? Did you even know that the F.C is raised completely from the tribal areas, so they are all Pushtuns as well, if we were killing Pushtuns in our military ops, we would have the type of negative image IA has in Kashmir, PA wouldn't be hailed as saviours.
> And if someone shoots at you from a cave and runs at you with a suicide jacket, we know that they are TTP, since these don't seem to be the favourite pass times of the local population.



A person of your knowledge must be knowing that Terrorists are identified and marked by locals / J&K Police (raised from locals). Even if I post an article mentioned the details of weapons they carried - would it make any difference to you. You will shout - they were planted by the army and we'll be back to where we started.

This is a long standing double edged argument. If some identification documents are posted - The answer is - Will a terrorist carry his I-Card mentioning his nationality while on mission. If there are none - then we already see your line of argument.

So we have this preconceived notion that whoever is killed by IA is a local Kashmiri - falsely implicated. Mind you I have never denied that there have been excesses and that no innocent has ever died, but atleast in the recent years the Army is being held accountable - Latest example is the death of a begger, who was falsely claimed to be a terrorist - and later identified by local population as a Kashmiri.

If they actually were local Kashmiris, will the population stay so quiet - Recently on the issue of that begger - and even for Sophian rape case - there were widespread demonstrations demanding justice. In the case of these terrorists as for most others, even the cremation will be conducted by IA. 

I wish these - even rare - incidents of innocents suffering could be avoided. But then it is their misfortune that the beautiful home is the subject of tug of war between two powerful nations.

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## KS

Black Blood said:


> Read the Report first !



I ve read the post first itself..but since u asked TWO questionss.?

1)Wats the proof that they were the bodies of Kashmiri Muslims only
and not Hindu Pandits or Terrorists..except the golden words of this god-women Angana..?

2)She had declared arbitarily that 47/50 encounters were fake and even in the real one he was a local militant..
a)Hw come she knows abt real and fake encounters..? 
b)how is she damn sure that the other was a local militant..? 
Did she interview him ..?

and I can go on and on with so many questions.


The point is there are too many unanswered question buddy....so before pointing fingers a bit self-introspection is appreciable.


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## KS

jazzy_superior said:


> *Amnesty International to assess human rights scenario in Kashmir*
> 
> Srinagar, May 19 (ANI): A two-member team of Amnesty International met Separatist Hurriyat leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq here and discussed various aspects to assess the state of human rights in the valley.
> 
> The team, comprising Bikram J. Batra and Ramesh Gopal Krishen arrived on Monday on a six-day visit to assess the human rights situation and note instances of human rights violations in the state.
> 
> 
> "They should responsibly assess the situation and condemn the violations and take up the issue with Central government. And if the Government does not respond then they should make it public that despite their repeated approach to the government, the latter has remained silent," said Farooq.
> 
> "We want that this organisation should bring out the real situation, make it clear and take a stand on the issue then," he added.
> 
> The Amnesty members said they would be meeting all sections of the people to obtain first hand information of any violation of human rights.
> 
> "The purpose of the visit is to get a better understanding of the human right situation here. We are meeting with all the key activists, political actors, government officials, lawyers and people who have suffered from human right violations," said Batra. (ANI)
> 
> Source: _Amnesty International to assess human rights scenario in Kashmir_





Dude the very same Amnesty International in collaboration with Canda immigration agency gives a even more damning report on the state of Human Right Violations in P-O-K:

Worth a look:

Issue Papers, Extended Responses and Country Fact Sheets

Before u jump the gun.let me add...Im not saying there are no violations in our Kashmir..In every insurgency prone area were the Army operated they r bound to be there (case in point FATA)
but wat i want u to understand is that U guys Are no saints either,,,
Both are equally culpable.


----------



## Jazzbot

*Amnesty Team visits Kashmir after 20 Years*

After a log gap of 20 years, an Amnesty International team has landed in the Kashmir valley to assess the present and real human rights scenario. They also met most of the Separatist leaders. 

The Central government has allowed the team to visit Kashmir valley and analyze the situation that always remain under a lot of political controversy. 

The two-member team led by both Indian nationals has invited all the political leaders and human rights groups to know their views and opinions. 

Syed Ali Shah Geelani, chairman of the hardliner faction of the Hurriyat said he did not expect any good results from the team because of their Indian origin.

Source: _Amnesty Team visits Kashmir after 20 Years_


----------



## Jazzbot

*AI claims Union Home Ministry refused to entertain it*

The global human rights watchdog, Amnesty International (AI) on Tuesday said that Union Home Ministry refused to discuss the issue of Human Rights violations in India with its representatives.

A two-member AI team, on a five-day visit to Kashmir to assess human rights violations, said that government of India was not ready to discuss the human rights violations. "Before coming to Kashmir we sought an appointment with Union Home Ministry but they did not seem interested. We even approached joint secretary home but to no avail. The response from the secretary came that 'you can send your report to us'," said Bikramjeet Batra, India Campaigner of South Asia chapter of AI.

For the first time since armed insurgency erupted in Kashmir in 1989, AI has visited Kashmir to assess human rights violations. India has been continuously denying permission to the agency.

Batra along with another AI representative Ramesh Gopala Krishnan said that government did not allow them to visit Kashmir even this time but being Indian citizens they could not stop their visit.

"This is a compulsion for them. We are Indian citizens and they can't stop us from going anywhere we want to go," said Batra. "AI had continuously tried to visit Kashmir in last 20 years but often our representatives were denied VISA," he said.

The team would be meeting politicians (mainstream and separatists), human rights activists, victims of human rights violations, lawyers, journalists and civil society during the visit. After Kashmir the team is scheduled to visit Manipur.

Batra said that the team would be focusing on the preventive detention of people by the state particularly under Public Safety Act. "We wanted to start from somewhere so we are starting with preventive detention issue. Young children are detained under public safety act (PSA) in Kashmir," Batra claimed.

He said that AI wants a continued engagement in Kashmir. "We would be taking on other issues like armed forces special powers act (AFSPA), unmarked graves as well," said Batra. Amnesty in 2008 had demanded a probe into the claims by a local human rights group , coalition of civil societies which stated the "presence of hundreds of unmarked graves across valley of those people allegedly killed at the hands of security forces since 1989".

The team said that a probe into Shopian alleged rape and murder of two women was also on the agenda of Amnesty. "Shopian incident is a big issue even now," said Batra.

On second day of their visit today, the team met moderate separatist leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front chairman, Yasin Malik. The team is also scheduled to visit chief secretary of the state S.S Kapoor and Director general of Police Kuldeep Khoda. The team said that they are also hopeful of meeting Chief Minister Omar Abdullah and hard line separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani.

Source: _AI claims Union Home Ministry refused to entertain it_


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## KS

jazzy_superior said:


> *AI claims Union Home Ministry refused to entertain it*
> 
> The global human rights watchdog, Amnesty International (AI) on Tuesday said that Union Home Ministry refused to discuss the issue of Human Rights violations in India with its representatives.
> 
> A two-member AI team, on a five-day visit to Kashmir to assess human rights violations, said that government of India was not ready to discuss the human rights violations. "Before coming to Kashmir we sought an appointment with Union Home Ministry but they did not seem interested. We even approached joint secretary home but to no avail. The response from the secretary came that 'you can send your report to us'," said Bikramjeet Batra, India Campaigner of South Asia chapter of AI.
> 
> For the first time since armed insurgency erupted in Kashmir in 1989, AI has visited Kashmir to assess human rights violations. India has been continuously denying permission to the agency.
> 
> Batra along with another AI representative Ramesh Gopala Krishnan said that government did not allow them to visit Kashmir even this time but being Indian citizens they could not stop their visit.
> 
> "This is a compulsion for them. We are Indian citizens and they can't stop us from going anywhere we want to go," said Batra. "AI had continuously tried to visit Kashmir in last 20 years but often our representatives were denied VISA," he said.
> 
> The team would be meeting politicians (mainstream and separatists), human rights activists, victims of human rights violations, lawyers, journalists and civil society during the visit. After Kashmir the team is scheduled to visit Manipur.
> 
> Batra said that the team would be focusing on the preventive detention of people by the state particularly under Public Safety Act. "We wanted to start from somewhere so we are starting with preventive detention issue. Young children are detained under public safety act (PSA) in Kashmir," Batra claimed.
> 
> He said that AI wants a continued engagement in Kashmir. "We would be taking on other issues like armed forces special powers act (AFSPA), unmarked graves as well," said Batra. Amnesty in 2008 had demanded a probe into the claims by a local human rights group , coalition of civil societies which stated the "presence of hundreds of unmarked graves across valley of those people allegedly killed at the hands of security forces since 1989".
> 
> The team said that a probe into Shopian alleged rape and murder of two women was also on the agenda of Amnesty. "Shopian incident is a big issue even now," said Batra.
> 
> On second day of their visit today, the team met moderate separatist leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front chairman, Yasin Malik. The team is also scheduled to visit chief secretary of the state S.S Kapoor and Director general of Police Kuldeep Khoda. The team said that they are also hopeful of meeting Chief Minister Omar Abdullah and hard line separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani.
> 
> Source: _AI claims Union Home Ministry refused to entertain it_




Fine i think u r here for nothing but increasing ur post count..Carry On.


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## prodevelopment

dabong1 said:


> As i said before google it but heres aquick few examples
> 
> Ilyas Kashmiri (militant) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Maulana Masood Azhar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Theres two well know persons that fought in kashmir with an education......i bet now you want me to list freedom fighters with PHds?



wo wo wo wo wo wo.........wait a second.

He asked you to name educated engineers and doctors and your reply is *this*?????? Maulana freaking Masood Azhar? And Illyas Kashmiri?

Do you know who they are? 

Maulana Azhar is a well know religious fanatic and terrorist who was brainwashed by his religious education. His list of accomplishments have included kidnapping of foreign tourists and the famous hijacking of IC814.

Illyas Kashmiri studied ONE FREAKING YEAR studying communications, at the end of which he was trained to fight Afghanistan and subsequently India by YOUR Army. He has been awarded by YOUR former President Musharraf for presenting the head of an Indian army sepoy to him. And then he turned against YOUR establishment and tried to murder Musharraf and Kayani. All this is from your link only.

Dude, if you want to present educated and sane people, your choice of examples was extremely poor and in bad taste as well.

Edit: Can someone guide me as to whether this post by 'dabong1' can be reported for support of terrorism?

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## Jazzbot

lol i just got these latest news from site, so thought to share them here lal.
what's up with post counts lol. check out the sites, these news are just out an hour ago. Also it will be interesting to see the report from these AI persons as they are visiting Kashmir after 20 years. Also in 1 of above post, it is clearly said that both AI persons are indian citizens, so overall it will be all interesting to see the latest developments. 

PS: i just thought it will be good to share these new here. didn't expected that you'll be pissed off..


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## username

IndianArmy said:


> Normal people are some times against us, Many Innoscents die in between cross fire, some major failure in intelligence inputs would act against the innoscent.... Separatists Give assistance to terrorists....
> 
> So the normal kashmiris are feared, as we check them daily, we get a bit harsh, I myself accept it, but that is for there well being, we cannot take chances can we?



hmmm... hearing the other side of the coin also for the first time, from a person who had been there... thanks... 
only thing is this dispute should end... how is the life of a normal Kashmir people ? I am not asking whether they support India / Pakistan / a seperate country... Normal people are always busy in finding food for themselves is what my view point is... 

Are they enjoying their own culture freely and they do celebrate their own festivals ? And what is the amount of poverty there ?


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## Jazzbot

Karthic Sri said:


> Dude the very same Amnesty International in collaboration with Canda immigration agency gives a even more damning report on the state of Human Right Violations in P-O-K:



yea and very same Amnesty International that was not allowed to visite *I-O-K* even after lots of lots of requests over past 20 years.


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## KS

U think im pissed off..... think again.....i can be more than wat u can handle.




jazzy_superior said:


> yea and very same Amnesty International that was not allowed to visite *I-O-K* even after lots of lots of requests over past 20 years.



Hey dude....u didn read abt Amnesty International report on our Kashmir by BlackBlood.Even though they may not be entirely true the report is an evidence of the fact that they visited Kashmir.So ur claim in this regard is busted.

Thirdly pls read my previous post once more.:

*"Before u jump the gun.let me add...Im not saying there are no violations in our Kashmir..In every insurgency prone area were the Army operates they r bound to be there (case in point FATA)
but wat i want u to understand is that U guys Are no saints either,,,
Both are equally culpable."*


----------



## KNIGHT-RIDER

if IA causing human right abuse then your *** handler ,their supporter ,those militant are more or equally responsible for this situation.
you create such a situation & all the worlds army is renound for human right abuses(be it iraq,NW frontier in pak)
this is the way army all over the world works.army is a beast which is taught to destroy.
your terror brothers wont let police handle the situation so army has to be called on scene.Even how much terrorist sent by *** are no saint in abusing human rights but people find army an easy option to make hue & cry.
my advice stop cross border terrorism help create good environment to withdraw army from law & order jobs this will ease some tension .


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## IndianArmy

username said:


> hmmm... hearing the other side of the coin also for the first time, from a person who had been there... thanks...
> only thing is this dispute should end... how is the life of a normal Kashmir people ? I am not asking whether they support India / Pakistan / a seperate country... Normal people are always busy in finding food for themselves is what my view point is...
> 
> Are they enjoying their own culture freely and they do celebrate their own festivals ? And what is the amount of poverty there ?



Yes, Some of them Live on seasonal employment, we proved Jobs to the jobless when Needed the most, The Army buys the Raw materials from them If needed or not , Just to help them... 

there life goes good, Most of them are employed in cottage Industries..
Poverty sure is a Major problem there, but they are happy with there own Life, they dont mingle with others much, They are normal Human Beings Dear, Like us


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## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> If it were say Hindu Pandits, it would have been more convenient to burn any evidence.



And you think Muslim bodies do not burn and had to be buried. IA is atrocious enough to kill them, but sensitive enough to dispose off the bodies keeping in mind religious sensitivities

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## EjazR

I don't think any sane Indian would deny that human rights abuses have been committed. But the peak is in the past. As a democratic country, it is forced to follow moral policies. Hence, the actual pace of human rights violations is drastically lower than the early 1990s. The mass graves mentioned are estimated to be 15 years old as well, not recent. There should be zero tolerance for HR abuse.
At the same time AI should highlight prominently the HR abuses committed by the militants who most of the time are based in Pakistan. The threats to women and politicians, the sporadic killings th throwing of acids are much bigger HR abuses which should be given as much if not more prominence due to the barbarity of their abuse.

Now that AI has got permission to visit the Indian side of Kashmir after 20 years. Will GoP give them permission to visit their side of Kashmir including the areas of Gilgit - Baltistan? OR do HR abuses there not count?


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## Bang Galore

Black Blood said:


> What about this ?
> 
> 
> *Mass found Graves in Kashmir *



I'm very sceptical about these being mass graves in the sense that it is being spoken of. Except for the lack of tombstones, they look like any other graveyard. Do you think that if the security forces were responsible, they would have painstakingly dug individual graves with raised mounds in clear demarcated lines identifying them as graves for people that according to the theory, they did not think much off? Would it not have been much easier to use a JCB and dig a single large pit & dump all the bodies there which is how a "mass grave" usually looks like? Why this concern to do it almost with a religious overtone?

In these days of satellite imaging, digging and burying people in mass graves is not so simple as some of you think it to be. If the security forces were responsible and wanted to get rid of the bodies, a crematorium would have been a much better choice than burying people in clearly identifiable graves.


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## Kompromat

^ Read through the article , i cant answer these stupid questions repeatedly.


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## dabong1

Two Indian soldiers shot dead along LOC 

SRINAGAR: Two Indian soldiers were shot dead and three others injured on Tuesday along the Line of Control (LOC), the Indian Army said. The attack took place on Tuesday evening along the LOC in the southern Poonch district, Indian Army Spokesman Biplab Nath told AFP. Our vehicle moving from one post to another along the LOC was targeted, killing two soldiers, he said, adding that three others were injured. We are trying to ascertain whether the fire came from across the LOC or if it was carried out by sneaking militants, he said. afp
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

prodevelopment said:


> Edit: Can someone guide me as to whether this post by 'dabong1' can be reported for support of terrorism?



Why would this be 'support for terrorism'? You asked him a question and he gave you an answer.

On a side note, the warning about 'no support for terrorism' was meant to be from admins to members, and admins continue to reserve the right to make judgments on whether a line has been crossed or not, especially given the fact that 'one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter'.

That warning on 'no support for terrorism' was not meant to be used as a harassment tool by members against other members, which is how I increasingly see it being used by some to stifle discussion.

If you consider a post to be violating that rule, report it and the admins will deal with it as they see fit. Don't raise it on the open forum and harass other members. If you have questions about admin decisions, raise them through PM with civility.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*The earlier thread on the killing of two Indian soldiers in IAK (posted in the India Defence sub-forum) has been merged with this one since there is speculation that the firing was done by insurgents.*


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## prodevelopment

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Why would this be 'support for terrorism'? You asked him a question and he gave you an answer.
> 
> On a side note, the warning about 'no support for terrorism' was meant to be from admins to members, and admins continue to reserve the right to make judgments on whether a line has been crossed or not, especially given the fact that 'one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter'.
> 
> That warning on 'no support for terrorism' was not meant to be used as a harassment tool by members against other members, which is how I increasingly see it being used by some to stifle discussion.
> 
> If you consider a post to be violating that rule, report it and the admins will deal with it as they see fit, don't raise it on the open forum and harass other members. if you have questions about admin decisions, raise them through PM with civility.



Thank you for your reply Sir. I fail to see where I have not been civil with the member. Anyways if you go through the entire thread, my post would not even scratch the surface. Could you point out specific words/phrases which might have hurt his sentiments? 

Secondly, I agree that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. However, to deal with this specific issue, the mods had termed a terrorist as someone who harms civilians with his process. Therefore, by this definition, Maulana Azhar deserves to be termed as a terrorist.

But your point about 'support' is well taken and I have not reported the said post.

Thank you.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

prodevelopment said:


> I fail to see where I have not been civil with the member.


My reference was to the use of 'support for terrorism' as a threat to some members, and it was not limited to you, some others have done it as well.

The point I made was that it needs to be reported and left to the mods/admins, and not raised on the open forum.


> Secondly, I agree that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. However, to deal with this specific issue, the mods had termed a terrorist as someone who harms civilians with his process. Therefore, by this definition, Maulana Azhar deserves to be termed as a terrorist.


And all these are arguments you can make when reporting a post or discussing a post through PM with mods. On the post in question (Dabong's - I have not read posts prior to that), I understood him to be merely answering your question on whether any 'educated individuals were fighting in J&K'.


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## username

dabong1 said:


> The comparision is spot on.....the indian army invaded kashmir and the kashmiris are fighting to expel the invader.



Invader might be your point of view. See the difference which I am saying is that India thinks Kashmir as its own territory. In light of this militants fighting USSR and US and winning does not count, as both the countries would do check and balances as they don't consider Afghan or Viatnam as their territory. 




dabong1 said:


> India sending its citizens dressed in army uniforms to get killed in kashmir is a disgrace.



However India does not send citizens just "dressed" in army uniform. They are Indian Army men. They are properly employed men in Indian army, but the terrorists whom you call as freedom fighters are not employees, they are merely PROXIES not your ARMY. And why I am concerned about PROXIES is that, I feel Pakistan manipulates them without any proper compensation as your ARMY gets. This is morally corrupt. So I would like to correct myself if at all Pakistan gives proper compensation to their PROXIES like it gives to your ARMY. In a way I feel pity for you so called freedom fighters also, as I feel they are simply manipulated without proper compensation in to crossing the LOC and getting killed for nothing. 




dabong1 said:


> We tried the the democratic route and you rigged the elections so that leaves only the gun.
> 
> Its not a question of you want ,but a question of if you will forfill your obligations that where promised to the kashmiris.
> The debate on kashmir will always end up on the kashmiris getting the right of self determination which is something you guys know is where all your talk falls apart.
> 
> Again kashmir is not part of your country so logic does not count.



Well these points, I will not answer as it will simply lead to endless argument.




dabong1 said:


> Well yout totally wrong.



Prove that I am totally wrong, prove that your government takes care of the Kashmir terrorists (whom you call freedom fighters) as same as your army men (award, compensation, quota etc)... 










dabong1 said:


> As i said before google it but heres aquick few examples
> 
> Ilyas Kashmiri (militant) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Maulana Masood Azhar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Theres two well know persons that fought in kashmir with an education......*i bet now you want me to list freedom fighters with PHds*?



As I said assume good faith, I am just keen on knowing (with a proof) whether educated men take part in Kashmir terrorism (which you call as freedom struggle) or not. 

In the second example, he studied in a Madarasa, and not a real degree ? 
In the first example, he studied just for 1 year ? not even a course completion ? what can he do with just 1 year of study ?

And a lot of points have already been put by "prodevelopment", I don't want to repeat it.

Fine leave both of these examples, anything else ? again assume good faith please, I am not asking for phd. I am asking for just a professional education such as engineers, doctors etc fighting as terrorists (whom you would call as freedom fighters) in Kashmir from your side. If you could bring examples of much more reputable education (in real world terms, please don't say anything like why not Madarasa education is a reputable education) I would be glad to try to change my thinking about terrorism going on in Kashmir.


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## RPK

*Army corners terrorists in J-K forest, kills 11 - India - ibnlive*

Srinagar: Indian Army's newly launched Operation Thunder Strike has killed 11 terrorists in a 10-day operation in Jammu and Kashmir.

The anti-terror operation in Hafruda forests has also led to the recovery of a huge quantity of automatic rifles, grenades, IEDs, rocket launchers and a huge cache of ammunition. The huge cache of arms and ammunition suggest Pakistan is giving yet another big push to terrorists on the Indian side of Line of Control.
he Army and Jammu and Kashmir Police also lost three men including an officer in the operations




"This operation has started on May 5. We killed 11 terrorists and no civilian casualties have taken place," said Major General N George, GOC of Kilo Force of the Indian Army.

The Army has entered deep into the forests to neutralise the terrorists just near the LoC, but the challenges still remain.
*
"There are 27 terrorists who sneaked into this side since January, out of which we have killed 13 so far," said North Kashmir Range DIG AQ Manhas.*

Police have even mapped areas where they are mulling to step up the operations. Meanwhile, Army sources say attempts of infiltration are on and the latest attempts were made from RS Pora in Jammu and Handwara in Kashmir.

"The areas infested presently are Lolab area, Rajwar, Zachaldara, Hafruda, Mawar, Rafiabad, parts of Sopore and adjoining areas of Bandipora connecting with Kupwara," adds DIG Manhas.

Security forces believe they can go further on the lead if continous pressure is mounted on terrorists and the battle is taken into their supposed territory deep into the jungles.

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## username

Skeptic said:


> A person of your knowledge must be knowing that Terrorists are identified and marked by locals / J&K Police (raised from locals). Even if I post an article mentioned the details of weapons they carried - would it make any difference to you. You will shout - they were planted by the army and we'll be back to where we started.
> 
> This is a long standing double edged argument. If some identification documents are posted - The answer is - Will a terrorist carry his I-Card mentioning his nationality while on mission. If there are none - then we already see your line of argument.
> 
> So we have this preconceived notion that whoever is killed by IA is a local Kashmiri - falsely implicated. Mind you I have never denied that there have been excesses and that no innocent has ever died, but atleast in the recent years the Army is being held accountable - Latest example is the death of a begger, who was falsely claimed to be a terrorist - and later identified by local population as a Kashmiri.
> 
> If they actually were local Kashmiris, will the population stay so quiet - Recently on the issue of that begger - and even for Sophian rape case - there were widespread demonstrations demanding justice. In the case of these terrorists as for most others, even the cremation will be conducted by IA.
> 
> I wish these - even rare - incidents of innocents suffering could be avoided. But then it is their misfortune that the beautiful home is the subject of tug of war between two powerful nations.



Skeptic, I share most of your thoughts.


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## KS

Black Blood said:


> ^ Read through the article , i cant answer these stupid questions repeatedly.



I ve read the post.

Ok now answer just these 2 sane questions.:


1)Wats the proof that they were the bodies of Kashmiri Muslims only
and not Hindu Pandits or Terrorists..except the golden words of this god-women Angana..?

2)She had declared arbitarily that 47/50 encounters were fake and even in the real one he was a local militant..
a)Hw come she knows abt real and fake encounters..? 
b)how is she damn sure that the other was a local militant..? 
Did she interview him ..?

and I can go on and on with so many questions.


The point is there are too many unanswered question buddy....so before pointing fingers a bit self-introspection is appreciable.


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## KS

dabong1 said:


> What i find funny is that you have the mental fortitude to equate india with either the US or USSR.



Where have i compared India with US and USSR..?
Dont twist my words dude...If u cant answer them..u have the option of skipping them..U dont have to force urself to answer everything. 




dabong1 said:


> But you fail to mention the nukes came about becauce of the kashmir issue and if theres a war it will be for reason to do with kashmir.
> Thats why the world wants the UN ro sort the issue out of kashmir.



Watever reason ..nukes have ultimately come....nad the world cares only abt the nukes..The world gives Jacksh** abt Indian "occupation " of Kashmir.




dabong1 said:


> Nehru invaded kashmir and other states also....he was never into non violence.



Ooops..i forgot u read Pakistani history books in ur 6 th standard..

Ok so if Indian troops invaded first why is 1/3 of Kashmir with Pakistan..?




dabong1 said:


> And we have been trying to give the people of kashmir a taste of true freedom for the last 63 years.



Yeh u can go on trying for the next 630 years.Who cares...




dabong1 said:


> The same way we dont care what you indian call the occupation army in kashmir.....to us there all ****.



No buddy...unlike us u dont have the luxury of not caring wat Indian ppl think because wether u like it or not 2/3 of Kashmir is with India and so Indian opinion is everything




dabong1 said:


> I dont care for what you indians do with your money as long it its spend on killing innocent kashmiri people.....then i do care.



Innocent Kashmiris always roam with Kalashnikovs ,rocket launchers and grenades..?Now thats news to me.




dabong1 said:


> The indian occupation forces are just target practice.



Target practice..?!?!? but the news that are coming recently suggest the otherwise...
(hint:post # 513,514,515)

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## dabong1

prodevelopment said:


> wo wo wo wo wo wo.........wait a second.
> 
> He asked you to name educated engineers and doctors and your reply is *this*?????? Maulana freaking Masood Azhar? And Illyas Kashmiri?
> 
> Do you know who they are?
> 
> Maulana Azhar is a well know religious fanatic and terrorist who was brainwashed by his religious education. His list of accomplishments have included kidnapping of foreign tourists and the famous hijacking of IC814.
> 
> Illyas Kashmiri studied ONE FREAKING YEAR studying communications, at the end of which he was trained to fight Afghanistan and subsequently India by YOUR Army. He has been awarded by YOUR former President Musharraf for presenting the head of an Indian army sepoy to him. And then he turned against YOUR establishment and tried to murder Musharraf and Kayani. All this is from your link only.
> 
> Dude, if you want to present educated and sane people, your choice of examples was extremely poor and in bad taste as well.



Your fellow countryman is trying to say that the majority of the freedom fighters in kashmir do not have an education and get nothing if they are martyred.
I am just picking out a few examples of well know people whos histories are documented to show that the majority are educated.
Obviously when a local commander or freedom fighter dies his full education is not reprted on the media,thus it makes it a bit hard for me to give a link.
The example i have given are people that are well know by many.

Remember the point is about if the people fighting in kashmir have an education or not about if you like the guy or not.

Syed Salahudeen graduated in arts from the SP College and received a master's degree in political science from the University of Kashmir in 1971.......you might like the guy but the point is does he have a good education.

Omar Saeed Sheikh is another that most people night not like but thats not the point......does he have a good education? The guy went to the London School of Economics.

As i said before,these people lifes are well documented so its easy for me to get the info and that the reason why am posting it and not becauce i agree with all of there methods.





prodevelopment said:


> Edit: Can someone guide me as to whether this post by 'dabong1' can be reported for support of terrorism?


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## foxbat

Oh! WTH.. The whole thread has gone off topic..Cross border firing linked to insurgents.. Now we are really abstracting it up.. I dont think we have reached a stage where we consider Pakistani Rangers/Army and insurgents as same. Helping each other, yes.. Same.. I dont think so..


So getting back at topic.. Here's some better news for Indians


3 militants killed in Kashmir | Deccan Chronicle | 2010-05-19

Srinagar: Three separatist guerrillas, including a top commander of the Hizbul Mujahideen militant outfit, were on Wednesday killed in a gunfight with security forces in south Kashmir's Pulwama district, police said.

Acting on a tip-off, an operation was launched in the morning jointly by the Special Operations Group (SOG) and the Rashtriya Rifles against militants hiding in Lassidaban (Keller) village of Pulwama district, 55 km from here, a senior police officer said. 

"As the security forces surrounded the house in which the militants were holed up, they opened up heavy automatic gunfire at the surrounding security forces, resulting in a gunfight that ended in the afternoon," the officer said. 

"Three militants including Lateef Tendwa, the divisional commander of the Hizbul Mujahideen outfit, his associate Ayaj Bhat and another unidentified militant were killed in this operation," he added. 

Police said Lateef Tendwa was wanted in a number of killings he had carried out in areas in south Kashmir

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## foxbat

And some more 

Pakistani LeT commander, aide killed in Jammu and Kashmir

JAMMU - The Indian Army said it killed Wednesday a top Pakistani commander of the Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) outfit and his aide in a fierce gun battle in Jammu and Kashmir&#8217;s Doda district.


Abdullah Anas or Abu Anas, a self-styled divisional commander of the LeT, was gunned down inside a house in Judi Khurd area, 190 km northeast of Jammu, the state&#8217;s winter capital. 

Abu Anas was also the main &#8216;hawala&#8217; coordinator for LeT, responsible for clandestine money transfers in Jammu and Kashmir. 

Also killed was his trusted aide Abu Maaz, also a Pakistani. 

Acting on a tip, soldiers from the 26 and 31 battalions of Rashtriya Rifles - a counter-insurgency force of the army - surrounded the house. 

&#8220;Four civilians were evacuated from the house to ensure they were not harmed,&#8221; said army spokesperson Lt. Col. Biplab Nath in a statement. 

Once that happened, the fighting started between the troops and the holed up guerrillas. 

&#8220;There was heavy exchange of fire after terrorists opened fire at the troops around 1 p.m. (Wednesday). This continued for two hours before the terrorists were gunned down,&#8221; Lt. Col. Nath said. 

Soldiers recovered two AK-47 rifles from the dead men. 

*An army official said the two Pakistanis routinely molested local women. 

&#8220;Fearing reprisals, the locals chose to turn a blind eye. The two were actively involved in planning terror strikes against security forces,&#8221; the official said. *
&#8220;For the security forces, the neutralization of the two LeT militants is a resounding success,&#8221; he said.

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## foxbat

*Another one.. A few days old, but captured alive.. I am sure by this time, he must be wishing that he was dead*

Hizb militant, with wife, nabbed in Jammu and Kashmir


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## KS

*@ Fox bat:*

WAt...!!! 7 for no loss..!!

Ur just a god sent messenger delivering all the good news...Keep it up bro....


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## Jade

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> 'one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter'.



Agno, I feel this is a wrong way of defining a terrorist. In a way this definition justifies terrorist acts. If this definition were true, even Osama bin Laden cannot be termed a terrorist unequivocally. After all, even Osama bin Laden is a freedom fighter for some and terrorist for others.


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## wali87

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WmtPmOdSuQ


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## username

dabong1 said:


> Your fellow countryman is trying to say that the majority of the freedom fighters in kashmir do not have an education and get nothing if they are martyred.
> I am just picking out a few examples of well know people whos histories are documented to show that the majority are educated.
> Obviously when a local commander or freedom fighter dies his full education is not reprted on the media,thus it makes it a bit hard for me to give a link.
> The example i have given are people that are well know by many.
> 
> Remember the point is about if the people fighting in kashmir have an education or not about if you like the guy or not.
> 
> Syed Salahudeen graduated in arts from the SP College and received a master's degree in political science from the University of Kashmir in 1971.......you might like the guy but the point is does he have a good education.
> 
> Omar Saeed Sheikh is another that most people night not like but thats not the point......does he have a good education? The guy went to the London School of Economics.
> 
> As i said before,these people lifes are well documented so its easy for me to get the info and that the reason why am posting it and not becauce i agree with all of there methods.



I think they are not front line fighters, they might simply sit in a chair and call shots. There is no need for you prove that they are front line fighters or not, *as the two terrorists qualification you provided is a bit of shock.* London school of Economics and then terrorism ? A waste of a seat in London School of Economics. 

So the last one is your Government treating them as same as they treat your Army.


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## foxbat

Karthic Sri said:


> *@ Fox bat:*
> 
> WAt...!!! 7 for no loss..!!
> 
> Ur just a god sent messenger delivering all the good news...Keep it up bro....



honestly its my buddy Karan who prodded me to post this. Am not too big on following news but with him not wanting to post in this thread and what not, it seems I have become his proxy..

But as long as the news is as good as above, I am not complaining..


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## dabong1

username said:


> I think they are not front line fighters, they might simply sit in a chair and call shots.
> There is no need for you prove that they are front line fighters or not,



I think that you will find that the common indian foot soldier on the front line also does not hold a degree,the ones calling the shots like the generals,majors ect will be the ones that hold qualifications.





username said:


> *as the two terrorists qualification you provided is a bit of shock.* London school of Economics and then terrorism ? A waste of a seat in London School of Economics.



Off course the majority freedom fighters did not go to the London School of Economics and omar sheikh is a bit of an extreme example but the point about the freedom fighters being "uneducated" is false.
If you check all the liberation movement around the world you will that the majority the people involved do have some sort of education,with lower section of the group making up the footsoldiers while the better educated in the higher postions,the same as any organisation in the world.




username said:


> So the last one is your Government treating them as same as they treat your Army.



In what way?

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## KS

@Dabong1

post # 511..?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

foxbat said:


> Oh! WTH.. The whole thread has gone off topic..Cross border firing linked to insurgents.. Now we are really abstracting it up.. I dont think we have reached a stage where we consider Pakistani Rangers/Army and insurgents as same. Helping each other, yes.. Same.. I dont think so..



The reason for posting the killing of the IA soldiers in this thread was because a news report did point out that it was not certain whether the firing was from insurgents or PA/ranger positions (this was specifically mentioned when merging).

No comments were made about the PA/Rangers and insurgents 'being the same', and I would appreciate it if you refrain from trolling next time by implying that.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

jade1982 said:


> Agno, I feel this is a wrong way of defining a terrorist. In a way this definition justifies terrorist acts. If this definition were true, even Osama bin Laden cannot be termed a terrorist unequivocally. After all, even Osama bin Laden is a freedom fighter for some and terrorist for others.



I didn't say that was the 'definition of a terrorist', I said that people from different POV make those distinctions and moderators will take that into account. There are certain groups that openly murder civilians and advocate the murder of civilians, such as Al Qaeda, TTP, BLA etc.

There is no question such groups are engaging in terrorism.

OBL claimed the WTC bombings (according to most - there are some who contest the veracity of the 'confession'), so by that yardstick there is no question he engaged in terrorism.


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## foxbat

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The reason for posting the killing of the IA soldiers in this thread was because a news report did point out that it was not certain whether the firing was from insurgents or PA/ranger positions (this was specifically mentioned when merging).
> 
> No comments were made about the PA/Rangers and insurgents 'being the same', and I would appreciate it if you refrain from trolling next time by implying that.



Oh..C'mon.. You are just busting me for nothing.. Not at all implying that. As a matter of fact was objecting to mixing the news of IA men killed by cross border firing in the thread reserved for the fight between IA and "pro freedom insurgents" . If my use of language created any confusion, I apologize, but I have utmost respect for military men (of any country) even if they are fighting against mine. Would never term them to be same as folks who in *my books * are nothing but glorified terrorists.


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## foxbat

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I didn't say that was the 'definition of a terrorist', I said that people from different POV make those distinctions and moderators will take that into account. There are certain groups that openly murder civilians and advocate the murder of civilians, such as Al Qaeda, TTP, BLA etc.
> 
> There is no question such groups are engaging in terrorism.
> 
> OBL claimed the WTC bombings (according to most - there are some who contest the veracity of the 'confession'), so by that yardstick there is no question he engaged in terrorism.



This reminds me of a famous dialog from Shakti (Amitabh-dilip kumar starrer)

Chor wo hota hai, jo pakda jai.. Chori wo hoti hai jo saabit ho...

I mean there is no way a Pakistani would ever term a Kashmiri militant as a terrorist, no matter how many civilians he kills. That goes against the basic principles of Pakistan's ideology. To make life simple and reduce the barrage of Indian members blaming Pakistani members for supporting terrorism, I suggest the mods should simply exclude all happeneings in Kashmir (unless done by Indian Army) from being termed as terrorism. civilians or no civilians. The result will remain the same.. At least, the unnecessary and no impact posts by some naive Indian members would get reduced..

Just my 2 cents...

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## Kashmiri Nationalist

I see alot of debate between Pakistani & Indian about Kashmir issue however some Kashmiris may just have Pakistani flag in their profiles like me
Just wondering I am the only Kashmiri member on the forum, I hope not. Doesn't matter if your from Azad, Jammu, Aksai we are all Kashmiri. Also, please don't start discussing whether Azad is Azad, Aksai is Kashmir etc..., not the point of the thread (with all respect).

For any Kashmiris, I have some general question to get the ball rolling:

Are you in India/Pak/Kashmir?

If abroad which country?

The Buddhists, Hindu's are Kashmiris too, why do we only hear of Muslim Kashmiris? All our ancestors have eat the wheat of the same soil.

Should Kashmir be independent?

Kashmiri pride over nationalistic pride?

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## Hyde

First tell about yourself - are you living in Pakistani side of the Kashmir or Indian side of the Kashmir? i know you are in UK but what about your family and relatives?

and i am not Kashmiri - I am Punjabi by birth


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## Hulk

His flag says it all.


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## Patriot

Dabong 1 is a Pakistani Kashmiri.A very patriotic person!

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## Patriot

Also civicfan here is also Kashmiri..


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## BJlaowai

Kabir Panthi said:


> *How free is my Valley?*
> 
> Saadia Gardezi (The Friday Times, Pakistan)
> 
> The Azad in AJK smacks of oxymoronic rhetoric. Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK) is neither a free territory, nor a province of Pakistan. Muzaffarabad has always been under the control of Islamabad and the curtailment of the freedom of expression is constitutionally protected. Without meaning to refer to the new name just bestowed on an old province, let me ask, whats in a name?
> 
> Here is what.
> 
> There are a number of reports that describe the human rights violations in Indian Occupied Kashmir but it is hard to come by reports of violations on Pakistans side. The Pakistani government often pretends that the only problems faced by Kashmiris are in India. The official position that there are no human rights violations in AJK is a naïve and disingenuous position that needs to be challenged. According to the Freedom House World Freedom Reports, in 2008 Pakistan-administered Kashmir was given the status Not Free. This index awards a score of 1 to a free country based on ratings of political rights and civil liberties. These ratings are averaged, ranging from 1 to 7, i.e. countries or disputed territories with scores from 1 to 2.5 are considered Free, 3 to 5 are Partly Free, and 5.5 to 7 are Not Free. In 2008, this index gave AJK a Political Rights Score of 7 and a Civil Liberties score of 5. The scores for AJK have improved to a 6 and a 5 respectively in 2010. In comparison, Indian Occupied Kashmir has better scores of 5 for political rights and a 4 for civil liberties, and a status of partly free, which ironically is exactly equivalent to Pakistans national score and status!
> 
> According to Brad Adams, Asia Director at Human Rights Watch , the Pakistani authorities govern Azad Kashmir with strict controls on basic freedoms The military shows no tolerance for dissent and practically runs the region as a fiefdom. The presence of an elected local government is a mere formality. In 2006, Human Rights Watch (HRW) reported that the federal government in Islamabad, the army and the ISI control all aspects of political life in AJK. Torture is routinely used in Pakistan, and this practice is also common in AJK. HRW also documented incidents of torture by the intelligence services and other agencies and individuals acting at the behest of the security establishment but knows of no cases in which members of military and paramilitary security and intelligence agencies have been prosecuted or even disciplined for acts of torture or mistreatment.
> 
> The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) has also articulated tight controls on freedom of expression as a key pillar of government policy in AJK. While militant organizations promoting the incorporation of Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir State into Pakistan have had free reign to propagate their views, groups promoting an independent Kashmir find their speech curtailed. Publications and literature favouring independence are banned.
> 
> Pakistan has prevented the creation of an independent media in the territory through bureaucratic restrictions and coercion. Looking at the freedom of expression in AJK, before 2005, the only radio allowed to operate was the Azad Kashmir Radio, a subsidiary of Radio Pakistan. Similarly before the earthquake telephone landlines were limited and being strictly monitored and a very limited mobile telephone service was operational. HRW reports that all telecommunications stations were controlled by the Special Communications Organization (SCO), a functional unit of the Pakistani army. Only after the earthquake did the government allow private mobile phone companies to operate in Azad Kashmir when it was pointed out that the loss of life could have been lessened had people and rescue workers had this technology as they did in affected areas in NWFP (as it was then called).
> 
> It has been widely reported that refugees from Jammu and Kashmir are discriminated against and mistreated by the authorities. Kashmiri refugees and former militants from India, most of whom are secular nationalists and culturally and linguistically different from the people of AJK, are particularly harassed through continuous surveillance, arbitrary beating and arrests and restraints on political expression. Pakistani military bases in AJK are usually placed in close proximity to highly populated civilian areas supposedly because of a lack of space. But many Kashmiris told HRW that the Pakistani military uses the bases to keep a close watch on the population to ensure political compliance and control.
> 
> Freedoms of association and assembly are restricted and constitutionally repressed. Article 4(7)(2) of the Azad Jammu and Kashmir Interim Constitution Act of 1974, states: No person or party in Azad Jammu and Kashmir shall be permitted to propagate against, or take part in activities prejudicial or detrimental to, the ideology of the States accession to Pakistan. In recent years anti-government demonstrations have been violently suppressed and examples of these incidents are not hard to find. In 2005, at least ten people were killed when the police fired on a group of Shia students, after which curfews were imposed in Gilgit to prevent demonstrators from assembling. In 2006 police detained leaders of the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front, including Amanullah Khan, after they attended a peaceful rally in Rawalpindi against the construction of the Bhasha Dam. Khan was detained for a week and was not permitted to receive visitors during that time, according to the U.S. State Departments human rights report. In October 2008, police baton-charged dozens of people demonstrating against the proposal to move the capital of Azad Kashmir from Muzaffarabad. Three people were arrested but released the same day. In November 2008, the police blocked activists of the pro-independence APNA who were protesting in favor of truck services across the line-of-control from entering a town near the line-of-control.
> 
> In 2007, the European Union (EU) passed Emma Nicholsons Kashmir report with an overwhelming majority and adopted it as an official EU document. This kind of report sits squarely in the grey area of the AJK problem. It has been touted in the media as being anti-Pakistan and there are Kashmiris who find it pro-Kashmiri rights and some call it dubious. The key problem with this report is that it fails to acknowledge Indian repression in Kashmir and portrays a benign image of a pro-people India.
> 
> The EU report titled Present situation and future prospects was critical of the fact that the Pakistan side of Kashmir was governed through the Ministry of Kashmir Affairs in Islamabad, that Pakistan officials dominated the Kashmir Council. This report also highlighted the facts that at the time the Chief Secretary, the Inspector-General of Police, the Accountant-General and the Finance Secretary were all from Pakistan. Nicholson disapproved of the provision in the 1974 Interim Constitution, which forbids any political activity that is not in accordance with the doctrine of Jammu and Kashmir as articulated by Pakistan, and obliges any candidate for a parliamentary seat in AJK to sign a declaration of loyalty to that effect.
> 
> Looking at the rule of law, the whole system of law and order seemingly rests on the control by the army and Islamabad. A clear illustration was given at the time of the 2005 earthquake when the AJK governmental structure collapsed. Analysts noted how, in the aftermath of 2005 earthquake the local government system was exposed. To quote Akbar Zaidi, the local government system and its elected bodies are part of the rubble along with the entire physical infra-structure of the area.
> 
> Due to the limited mandate of the AJK Legislative Assembly, the elected political leaders of Azad Kashmir essentially remain ostensible heads of the territory while the real power resides in Islamabad with the Ministry of Kashmir and Northern Areas (KANA). Naturally this requires an obedient AJK administration. Since the early 1990s, the decision-making authority and management of the Kashmir issue has been under the Pakistan military, the ISI and ISI backed militant organizations.
> 
> In this unique case of self-rule, under the constitution, the elected representatives are acquiescent to the Kashmir Council controlled by Islamabad. The High Court and Supreme Court Judges can only be appointed by approval of the Ministry of Kashmir Affairs in Islamabad. The Minister of Kashmir Affairs can dismiss the Prime Minister, as can the Chief Secretary  another Islamabad appointee. Under Article 56, the President of Pakistan can dissolve the Legislative Assembly.
> 
> Adding to the already dismal situation of human rights in AJK is the instability of the Northern Areas and the migration of these people into AJK. It can be argued that the appropriation of land in the Northern Areas by non-Kashmiri migrants with the tacit encouragement of the federal government and army has diminished economic opportunities for the local population. An externality of this has been an increase in sectarian tension between the majority Shia Muslims and the growing numbers of Sunnis in AJK and 2009 and 2010 have seen increasing tension and sectarian violence.
> 
> So is the human rights and law and order situation of AJK worse than that at the east of the line of control? Answers can range from yes to maybe to no. The truth is that this is a loaded question, and this sort of a comparison is hard to make. Reports and perspectives of AJK from the Indian side refer to AJK as Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. It is indeed true that there is a lack of consideration of human rights on both sides. Yet the facts are blurred by the political biases of both sides, and neutral reports become emotionally charged. External reporting by international watchdogs like Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch are a step behind. Research by organizations like the HRCP and reporting by local news channels is only just making headway.
> 
> The 2006 Human Rights Watch report on Kashmir quotes a Muzaffarabad resident, Pakistan says they are our friends and India is our enemy. I agree India is our enemy, but with friends like these, who needs enemies?
> 
> AJK is yet to operate as a free territory given the way we control it. Yet, understandably, we are loathe to accept this reality and our mainstream media is usually silent about this. Our rhetoric on AJK remains inflated and questionable.
> 
> 'How free is my valley' from TFT



Nice article. Gives a true picture of 'Azad' Kashmir


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## pandamonkey

Iam a kashmiri. All of my family is from kashmir. Azad Kashmir

---------- Post added at 07:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:31 PM ----------

I would add the kashmiri flag next to the pakistan and american flag but this site doesn't have a ajk flag.

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## pandamonkey

This is the most retarded report i have ever read. My entire family, my entire clan which numbers in the hundred of thousands lives in ajk. While living in the U.S. my mom and dad call back to akj almost everday. If their was any problems we would know about it. This reporter is saying that their is no freedom in ajk???? Pakistani goverment not letting the ajk saying anything???? Then how in the hell was he able to write this article. This newssite is based out of lahore. He is wrting about it right now isn't he?????? anyone stopping him from writing this paper. ?????????????


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## pandamonkey

i don't know what valley he is refering to but ajk is as free as any other part of pakistan. Well it enjoys better freedom then balochistan and the northern areas


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## EjazR

*Quiet diplomacy working: Pillai | Greater Kashmir *

&#8216;Consolidating Separatist Point Of View&#8217;

GK NEWS NETWORK

New Delhi, May 20: Government of India Thursday said the quiet diplomacy on Kashmir initiated by the Home Minister P Chidambaram is working well and it was &#8220;yielding results.&#8221;
&#8220;Quiet diplomacy initiated by the Home Minister is yielding results,&#8221; Home Secretary G K Pillai said in an interview with All India Radio.
He said the process (quiet diplomacy) was helping in consolidating the points of view of the groups who are not part of the mainstream politics in the state. In response to a question regarding the Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh&#8217;s forthcoming visit to the state, Pillai said; &#8220;continuation of the internal dialogue process on Kashmir is of paramount importance.&#8221; He said the reports of five Working Groups on Kashmir set up by the Prime Minister are under consideration of the Government.
Pertinently, while the separatists have been repeatedly denying being part of any such covert process, the state Congress president Prof Saif-ud-Din Soz other day also echoed the views similar to that of the Home Secretary on &#8220;quiet diplomacy&#8221;.
&#8220;Quiet dialogue (with separatists) is on,&#8221; Soz told reporters here on Wednesday and added that the leaders (Hurriyat) must be in touch with them (the Government of India). Soz even credited himself for having contributed &#8220;in a small way in the process.&#8221;
He had, however, refused to elaborate on what kind of dialogue was on between the Government of India and the separatists. The announcement regarding Government of India&#8217;s willingness to workout a unique solution of the Kashmir issue through &#8216;quiet dialogue, quiet diplomacy&#8217; was made by Chidambaram in Srinagar last year.
Speaking to journalists on
the sidelines of an All-India newspaper editor&#8217;s conference here on 14 October 2009, Chidambaram had said; &#8220;India is not afraid of dialogue and is willing to talk to all shades of opinion in the state for a solution through quiet dialogue. The solution will be announced after the contours of the political solution assume a definitive shape.&#8221;
The Home Secretary, in his interview today said that Pakistan was not happy with this process (quiet diplomacy) and infiltration from across the Line of Control continues. Expressing concern over growing infiltration, he said that Jammu and Kashmir police is now taking lead in dealing with the militants.
Pillai said the central paramilitary forces and army would vacate all the school buildings and stadia etc in Jammu and Kashmir by the end of this year.
The Home Secretary said this year 1.50 lakh policemen are being recruited in the country and as per the UN norms 8 lakh policemen are needed for better policing against the sanctioned strength of 3 and half lakh in the country.


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## ROSH

KeenGuy said:


> Oh so now the dead are now Van Winkles?
> 
> I guess the same mentality comes from the Indian soilders who commit these crimes against humanity.





*http://muktadhara.net/page35.html*

I happen to check this link and I am stunned.......don't think I can sleep well for days. My GOD ..........

The reason why I post this here is that I feel, just like me, lot of people have not undertood what people went through.


Quote some

John Hastings, A Methodist missionary worked in Bangladesh for 20 years. 

(from Newsweek) 

General Tikka Khan was briefed not only by General Yahya Khan but also by Mr. Bhutto then riding the crest of a popularity wave as the new savior of Islam. Gen Tikka in turn briefed his Army Senior Commanders and picked up a staff who would understand why a Muslim Massacre by a Muslim Army, Hindu slaughter, why all intellectuals were to be killed in cold blood, why all young Bengali Muslim girls were to be raped, not to satisfy lust but as a religious duty to produce a new generation of blue-blooded true Muslims. 

When the Sheikh had finally turned down all sentimental arguments, pleading for still further sacrifices on the part of Bangladesh in the interest of Islam (as understood in Punjab), Bhutto made his appearance in Dacca for no reasons at all. He had arrived to strengthen the shaky hands of Yahya Khan, the Martial Law Administrator, and to advise him what action to take with hell raisers like Mujeeb. 

 The first major slaughter appears to have taken place on 23 March, 1971, a day before the talks were ended and Gen Yahya flew back to Islamabad. On this day thousands of people started collecting near Chittagong port. mostly they consisted of innocent laborers. There was no government order prohibiting assemblies. Without warning, automatic fire was opened upon them and soon the e whole area was littered with dead bodies. The dead were later found to be over four thousand. Their bodies were thrown into the sea. 

On 25 march 1971, the Pakistan forces entered Dacca University and went straight for Jaggannath Hall, which was a hostel for Hindu students. Over one hundred students were butchered mercilessly in their rooms. 

Next morning Army units again arrived. They gathered all those who were wounded the previous day including Dr GC Deb, the Head of the department of philosophy, Dacca University, and ordered them to collect all the dead bodies from different rooms and pile them up in the courtyard of the hall. It was a difficult and painful task for bleeding and disabled persons but orders had to be complied with. After this painful task was over, all the wounded including Dr GC Deb were lined up close to the dead bodies and shot dead mercilessly. 

On 25 March 1971, all the hutments of poor people, mostly Muslim rickshaw pullers of Babupara Basti (slum) near New Market, Dhaka, were set ablaze with incendiary bombs. Machine guns were already in position to mow down any one who tried to escape from being burnt alive. No one was to be spared. Children and women met their fate along with their men folk. Over one hundred thousand were burnt in this inferno. They were all Muslims. Their only fault was that they formed a part of a large mass of people who wanted to earn enough to be able to live their miserable lives. 

1. On 26 March the same treatment was meted out to Muslims occupying huts along the railway line between Nikhot and Hatkhola. Incendiary bombs and Machine guns took a heavy toll of people who had no chance even to see the butchers of the Army. 

2. In Naya Bazar Basti, in old Dhaka city, on the same day, Muslim Awami League supporters were given the same treatment, but their young girls were removed to Army camp for rape as a measure of mercy. 

3. On the night of 25 March, Pak forces attacked East Bengal Rifles HQ in Chittagong. This formation consisted of loyal Bangalees who had served as a Pakistan Army for about 25 years. But they were not to be trusted any more since they were known to be sympathetic to Mujibs movement for autonomy. About a thousand men who were under training to serve Pakistan were lined up and machine-gunned. 

4. Curfew was first clamped down on Sylhet town on 25 March 1971 about which none of the inhabitants were given any notice. An old man was coming out of the mosque after prayers when he was shot dead. The Army men then asked his two sons to remove the dead body. As soon as they came near the dead body they were both shot dead also. This pile of three bodies was allowed to rot in open view as a lesson for others who might venture out to the mosque for prayers. 

5. Another instance is quoted of whole rows of praying Muslims in a Mosque, being machine-gunned, with the remarks that they were not true Muslims and hence not entitled to pray in mosque. 

6. On 27 March a house-to-house search was conducted in Sylhet town from where most people had run away to the countryside. All women left in the town were raped including one who was 60 years old. After committing rape on one girl, they chopped off her breasts. The poor thing collapsed and died on the spot. 

7. On 31 March during day time Pahartoli locality of Chittagong town was attacked by the Pak Army in collaboration with Bihari refugees. About 3,000 Bangalees were killed and all women raped. About 500 beautiful girls were dragged to the cantonment and innumerable men used to rape them. One of these girls is reported to have remarked it is possible to stand the pangs of rape by so many beasts but impossible to bear the heat in body which results from excessive accumulation of semen. 

8. About 40% population of Dinajpur district was of Hindus. Only a few could escape to India. The remainders were wiped out by the Pak Army. Some Hindus appealed to be concerted into Islam and spared the agony of torture to death. None was excused. All were shot dead and buried in one pit. On the report of one Sital Sarkar that Hindus of Singia village about 8 miles North East of Thakurgaon were still hoisting Bangladesh flag, the total Hindu population of that village consisting of about 1500 people was done to death in about half an hour and the dead bodies dumped in two large pits dug by the Hindus themselves. 

9. Chittagong town perhaps suffered most. On 5/6 April the town was cordoned off, houses looted, women raped and after the rape naked women were marched to the river for a bath-- all tied with ropes like cattle. About 50 girls were taken to Ramgarh military cantonment where each girl was raped daily by about 10 to 15 men. At the time of rape the Pakistanis would shout Joy Bangla the war cry of freedom fighters and ask their miserable victims to shout for help to their father, Sheikh Mujeeb. Here all those affected were upper and middle class Muslims. 

10. On 10 April 1971, Biharis(non-Bengali Muslim migrants from Bihar, India) observed what they called a Revenge Day in Dhaka with the full cooperation of the Pak Army. 

The area chosen in Dhaka lay between Mirpur and Syamoli, since it was mainly occupied by upper and middle class Muslim government servants. The whole locality was cordoned off by Pak forces. Non-Bangalees were then let loose to satisfy all their sadist tendencies. After loot and butchery they raped every women. 

Killing continued while rape was being done. About 3,000 Bangalees lost their lives. No one knows the number of women who lost their honor besides lives. Those were some of the reasons for Biharis being denied Bangladesh citizenship. 

11. There was yet another cruelty practiced which has no precedence in history. During curfew hours Pak soldiers used to collect all the young boys they could find in the houses. They were blindfolded and handcuffed and taken to hospitals where their total blood used to be drained off. After which their dead bodies were thrown into Buri Ganga River. This is reported to have been practiced at many places throughout Bangladesh. 

12. One Kuti Sen, a Bengali Hindu, who had not been able to run away to India, was caught and handed over to the Muslim leaguers gathered in the local football field. A Pak Army Officer gave a lecture, which was explained, to the Bengali Muslim leaguers by an interpreter. The gist of the lecture was that all Hindus were agents of India and, therefore Muslims should kill them as an act of religious duty. Kuti Sen was tied with ropes, thrown on the ground and kicked to death by all present as an act of piety.

13. On recapture of Maulabi Bazar, then a sub -division of Sylhet district, in the third week of April, the town was looted and all suspects killed. All fair looking young girls were taken to Army camp and raped. Next morning they were brought naked to the local playground and compelled to dance before the leaders of the Muslim League throughout the day. Then they were taken to Shibpur Army camp and nothing was heard about them again. 

14. On 1st April 1971, a most horrifying thing happened in Holati village under the Sabhar PS of Dhaka district: 

The village was surrounded on all sides by Pak Army men accompanied by Biharis armed with daggers and spears. This was a pro-Awami League Hindu village. It was set on fire where even the cattle and domestic animals got burnt alive. Those who ran out were machine gunned as usual except some girls who were saved for sadistic pleasures. Babies were snatched from their mother and thrown up to fall on the pointed bayonets as an exercise in dexterity. The breasts of their mothers were chopped off and inserted into the mouths of the dead bodies. Those still alive were asked to shout Joy Pakistan. Most of them did as they were told by the sadist butchers. A boy aged six years, however, innocently said Joy Bangla the slogan he was used to shouting. This enraged the Army men so much that they cut that boy into fifty pieces and gave one piece each to the Hindus still alive to eat. On their refusal they were all shot dead to the glory of Pakistan. 

The few young girls who were spared the mercy of death were told not to be afraid.  We are not going to hurt you or kill you. You have been chosen to receive the good Muslim semen so that you give birth to true Muslims and not the bastards like Mujib Those girls were dragged away to the Army camp at Tungi. 

15. Here is another instance of the horrible tricks the Pak Army used to kill Bangalees. On 27 April 1971, the Pak Army decided to treat the derailment of a train at Goal Tek as an act of sabotage. Actually the railway track had given way due to erosion of the soft soil under the track. But while ravaging the Bangalees was the main agenda any excuse would do. 

Four villages in the vicinity i.e. Goal Tek, Morkon, Pagar and Abdullapur were charged with sheltering the Mukti Bahini (Freedom Fighters) and committing sabotage. The villages were set on fire while the inhabitants were asked to gather along with their families in selected places in batches of about thirty. Here fathers and brothers were asked to rape their daughters and sisters in front of the gathering. On refusal all of them were butchered including women and children. They were all Muslims. In some places people were forced to jump into the fire and were roasted alive



Major General SS Uban: Phantoms of Chittagong 

".........the Pakistan army [sought] out those especially likely to join the resistance -- young boys. Sweeps were conducted of young men who were never seen again. Bodies of youths would be found in fields, floating down rivers, or near army camps. As can be imagined, this terrorized all young men and their families within reach of the army. Most between the ages of fifteen and twenty-five began to flee from one village to another and toward India. Many of those reluctant to leave their homes were forced to flee by mothers and sisters concerned for their safety......" ( J. Rummel " Death By Government, p. 329.) 

Rummel further describes (p. 323) a chilling gendercidal ritual, reminiscent of Nazi procedure towards Jewish males: "In what became province-wide acts of genocide, Hindus were sought out and killed on the spot. As a matter of course, soldiers would check males for the obligated circumcision among *******. If circumcised, they might live; if not, sure death." 

"... In the dead region surrounding Dacca, the military authorities conducted experiments in mass extermination in places unlikely to be seen by journalists. At Hariharpara, a once thriving village on the banks of the Buriganga River near Dacca, they found the three elements necessary for killing people in large numbers: a prison in which to hold the victims, a place for executing the prisoners, and a method for disposing of the bodies. The prison was a large riverside warehouse, or godown, belonging to the Pakistan National Oil Company, the place of execution was the river edge, or the shallows near the shore, and the bodies were disposed of by the simple means of permitting them to float downstream. The killing took place night after night. Usually the prisoners were roped together and made to wade out into the river. They were in batches of six or eight, and in the light of a powerful electric arc lamp, they were easy targets, black against the silvery water. The executioners stood on the pier, shooting down at the compact bunches of prisoners wading in the water. There were screams in the hot night air, and then silence. The prisoners fell on their sides and their bodies lapped against the shore. Then a new bunch of prisoners was brought out, and the process was repeated. In the morning the village boatmen hauled the bodies into midstream and the ropes binding the bodies were cut so that each body drifted separately downstream......"

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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Yawn. This is a Kashmiri thread not a Bangladeshi one, lets not forget the Partition Massacres, but that would dereail thread. Stick to the topic.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

As Zaki said, I live in UK but have to Azad Kashmir many timesMy family live in AJK, and have done for generations. I think I have some relatives in Jammu but they were disconnected due to seperationAnd indianrabbit, I said this was not a argue thread, post your opinions on another thread or make one, If I wanted I could rebutt your post and turn this into an arguement but that defeats the point of the thread. 

Yeah, we need a Kashmiri flag on this foum unfortunatly I am not good at gfx.

@Patriot thanks for replying. I think I've seen civ post on here, not sure about Dabong.


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## Emperor Palpatine

Sshepeard was from Kashmir...


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## Hyde

Azad Kashmir said:


> Yeah, we need a Kashmiri flag on this foum unfortunatly I am not good at gfx.
> 
> @Patriot thanks for replying. I think I've seen civ post on here, not sure about Dabong.



but why you need Kashmiri flag if you are willing to stay with Pakistan and consider yourself a Pakistani only?

Use the flag of Pakistan instead - like the way you are using


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## ROSH

Azad Kashmir said:


> Yawn. This is a Kashmiri thread not a Bangladeshi one, lets not forget the Partition Massacres, but that would dereail thread. Stick to the topic.



Dude - all that I want to say to you is to open your eyes......look around...read the actual history of people not some folklores.....

You will realize that it is better to be with a truly democratic country than with some crazy dictator beast. Now please do not consider Pakistan democratic....actual power lies with only Army in pakistan...

and the day you will say, I want Azad Kashmir...azaad from Pakistan, Pakistanis will repeat their zenocide 1971 style.....
I posted it to forwarn you.......Don't you love your family? God be with you.

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## username

dabong1 said:


> In what way?



We have already gone over it, your army might be getting some benefits from your government, when in service, post service or when they die during service. Are they being given to the terrorists (the so called freedom fighters from your side) by Pakistan ?


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## honour

dabong1 said:


> The comparision is spot on.....the indian army invaded kashmir and the kashmiris are fighting to expel the invader.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We tried the the democratic route and you rigged the elections so that leaves only the gun.
> India sending its citizens dressed in army uniforms to get killed in kashmir is a disgrace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its not a question of you want ,but a question of if you will forfill your obligations that where promised to the kashmiris.
> The debate on kashmir will always end up on the kashmiris getting the right of self determination which is something you guys know is where all your talk falls apart.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well yout totally wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again kashmir is not part of your country so logic does not count.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As i said before google it but heres aquick few examples
> 
> Ilyas Kashmiri (militant) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Maulana Masood Azhar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Theres two well know persons that fought in kashmir with an education......i bet now you want me to list freedom fighters with PHds?



okkkk...here you call these scumbags <terrorists> as freedom fighters because they are educated...so Faisal shehjad was also freedom fighter...but tell me for whose independence he is fighting for..

plz think before writing....you call educated leader late Mr. rehman, first president of bangladesh as terrorist and call these idiots as PRO-FREEDOM FIGHTERS....check your soul...answer will be within for you conflicting views....


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## dabong1

foxbat said:


> I mean there is no way a Pakistani would ever term a Kashmiri militant as a terrorist, no matter how many civilians he kills. That goes against the basic principles of Pakistan's ideology.



If a kashmiri "militant" kills civilians on purpose then he is a terrorist and a murderer but the same goes for the indian army.




foxbat said:


> To make life simple and reduce the barrage of Indian members blaming Pakistani members for supporting terrorism, I suggest the mods should simply exclude all happeneings in Kashmir (unless done by Indian Army) from being termed as terrorism. civilians or no civilians. The result will remain the same.. At least, the unnecessary and no impact posts by some naive Indian members would get reduced..
> Just my 2 cents...



The "terrorist" label was attached to the kashmir struggle after 9-11 before that they where nearly always labeled as ultras,militants,rebels ect.
I take the indian calling the freedom fighters as terrorist as no more than a fad word that will probaly change into something else later on.
The problem really occurs with the whole thread is when people start name calling.


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## dabong1

username said:


> We have already gone over it, your army might be getting some benefits from your government, when in service, post service or when they die during service. Are they being given to the terrorists (the so called freedom fighters from your side) by Pakistan ?



I did give you an answer to this but for reason you dont believe me.
The average pakistani soldier serves 15-20 odd years in the army while the majority of the freedom fighters probaly do more then a year.One or two tours and they retire.
So to say that the freedom fighters should get the benefits same as a soldier is a bit unfair.
Off course if theres injury or death then the group that sent the fighter over will take care of him.


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## dabong1

honour said:


> okkkk...here you call these scumbags <terrorists> as freedom fighters because they are educated.



Did you bother reading the full debate? or just jump in half way
The point was about if the freedom fighters where uneducated or educated



honour said:


> ..so Faisal shehjad was also freedom fighter...but tell me for whose independence he is fighting for..



No the guys not a freedom fighter....his accused of trying to blow up a car bomb in time square,a straight terrorist in my book.





honour said:


> plz think before writing....you call educated leader late Mr. rehman, first president of bangladesh as terrorist and call these idiots as PRO-FREEDOM FIGHTERS....check your soul...answer will be within for you conflicting views....



When did i call Mr Rehman a terrorist?
I dont like happened in 1971 but Mr Rehman in my opinion was more right then the west pakistani govt.......he won the elections and he should have been the PM or we accept his demand.

If where checking souls please check your own and tell me why the indians dont let the kashmir choose what they want.


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## dabong1

Karthic Sri said:


> @Dabong1
> 
> post # 511..?



To many one liners bro


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## KS

dabong1 said:


> To many one liners bro



One liners....but they have a meaning inside them....


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## dabong1

Azad Kashmir said:


> @Patriot thanks for replying. I think I've seen civ post on here, not sure about Dabong.



Patriots got a good memory!



Azad Kashmir said:


> Yeah, we need a Kashmiri flag on this foum unfortunatly I am not good at gfx.



I dont know about you,but i want the AJK to be a province of pakistan like punjab.sindh ect and when the rest of kashmir is liberated they can join also......just for one moment think of the power we would have in pakistan.

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## Kabir Panthi

People of "Azad Kashmir" are not really Kashmiris in that they do not speak Kashmiri. But Gilgit-Baltistan and "Azad Kashmir" are both part of the historical princely state of Jammu & Kashmir.


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## EjazR

^^^
Well it would be more accurate to say that are there any people from the historical Jammu and Kashmir I guess.

In Pakistan, only people from around Muzaffarabad are from the Kashmir valley. Mirpuris are more Punjabi than Kashmir ethnically and linguistically


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## PakSher

I am a proud Kashmiri and a proud Pakistani. I do not get tear gassed and batton charged on a weekly or daily basis. None of my relatives have misteriously disappeared and no one has been raped in my village.

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## tinguzzz

I am from j&K (udhampur)

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## RobbieS

EjazR said:


> ^^^
> Well it would be more accurate to say that are there any people from the historical Jammu and Kashmir I guess.
> 
> In Pakistan, only people from around Muzaffarabad are from the Kashmir valley. Mirpuris are more Punjabi than Kashmir ethnically and linguistically



I heard the same from my Kashmiri classmates in Delhi. They dont consider Mirpuris and other folks beyond the LOC as Kashmiris as they hardly speak the language. No offense but in fact they were joking about about how UK based Mirpuris proudly call themselves Kashmiris but are hardly so. Could be just a couple of folks' opinion but thats what they told me.

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## prodevelopment

tinguzzz said:


> I am from j&K (udhampur)



Look who's back!!! The legend who gave us quotes like CKMKC


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## bc040400065

dabong1 said:


> I dont know about you,but *i want the AJK to be a province of pakistan like punjab.sindh ect and when the rest of kashmir is liberated they can join also*......just for one moment think of the power we would have in pakistan.



i agree with you.. but there are UN resolutions so i think we cannot do that untill there is a solution to kashmir...
and last me too a kashmiri but not by birth... my forefathers migrated from kashmir about century ago in the time of Dogra's...


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## foxbat

dabong1 said:


> If a kashmiri "militant" kills civilians on purpose then he is a terrorist and a murderer but the same goes for the indian army.
> 
> The "terrorist" label was attached to the kashmir struggle after 9-11 before that they where nearly always labeled as ultras,militants,rebels ect.
> I take the indian calling the freedom fighters as terrorist as no more than a fad word that will probaly change into something else later on.
> The problem really occurs with the whole thread is when people start name calling.



Its impossible to prove the on purpose tag. The lines of demarkation are too blurred between collateral damage and the killings resulting from the "dont care who gets killed" attitude.

I mean there was a recent incident when PA killed some 40 odd civilians in an airforce action. No one would call PA as a terrorist. would it.? There are similar situations in Kashmir too. That does not make IA a terrorist as well. There can be individuals within IA (and PA) who belong to the second group of I dont care who gets killed and they in my book are worse of than terrorists.

I see your point about name calling and saw your post in this thread where you tried to stem it before it went out of hand. But unfortunately till the times emotions run so high about the whole Kashmir situation, situation like these are inevitable...


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Post self removed because Indian members cannot understand a quote that is based on the generalization of a whole people and not an individual.


Seems they don't like a Kashmiri speaking up, whatever I hope I see whoever they f- call, because I wonder what they'll say when they find rap on my PC, lol.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

A cousin of mine went for Kashmir Jihad 8 years back when he was 20..
Love to go myself..
U never know.
TILL LASY DROP OF BLOOD.....WE WILL NEVER FORGET KASHMIR.
PAKISTAN ZINDABAD
FREE KASHMIR
MUJAHIDEEN PAINDABAD.

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## Prometheus

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> A cousin of mine went for Kashmir Jihad 8 years back when he was 20..
> Love to go myself..
> U never know.
> TILL LASY DROP OF BLOOD.....WE WILL NEVER FORGET KASHMIR.
> PAKISTAN ZINDABAD
> FREE KASHMIR
> MUJAHIDEEN PAINDABAD.



I always thought you are a Bolach.................sorry for misunderstanding you.......................you are a kashmiri 

thanks for clarification
pakistan Zindabad


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## prodevelopment

Azad Kashmir said:


> It does not matter if our families don't get riches if we are shaheed. This is a matter of our freedom, to avenge the deaths of our brothers, rapes of our sisters. Indian members take this from a Kashmir and think next time before you post:
> 
> "We will not stop resisting until the last drop of blood hits the ground. It does not matter how many of us die, we will always fight against our oppersors. In 60 years you have learned nothing from us, do you think we will stop? No. Parliamnet attacks were not that big, remember Mumbai? What's next? India will have a 9/11 one day if you do not stop. Do you think you can truly stop our struggle after the crimes you have commited against us?"



Down boy, down.

In 60 years, we have not learnt anything? Dude, it's been 60 years. Most of you who have accepted to follow the law live fruitful and healthy lives in Kashmir. But those few who have strayed because of that fundamentalist brainwashing have been  for the past 60 years. Keep up your bullshit and we'll keep  you. Simple as that.

Oh, and take you empty threats of 'another 9/11' somewhere else. We know how to deal with the likes of you.


----------



## Kashmiri Nationalist

raw@war said:


> You are most welcome.
> 
> Did your cousin came back or went to zannat...
> 
> Pakistan always Zindabad



Read my post, it does not matter if we get killed. We will always continue to fight. Unless ofcourse you are suggesting in liberation wars nobody gets killed? Usually the freedom fighters take most casualities, but do they stop? No. Understand whenever 1 gets shaheed, pride and pain fill the rest thus another 2 will step into his place. We are like Hydra.


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## Swift

Azad Kashmir said:


> Read my post, it does not matter if we get killed. We will always continue to fight. Unless ofcourse you are suggesting in liberation wars nobody gets killed? Usually the freedom fighters take most casualities, but do they stop? No. Understand whenever 1 gets shaheed, pride and pain fill the rest thus another 2 will step into his place. We are like Hydra.



Sorry to appointment you but u are not getting a inch of kashmir now. By the way what passport u carry , kashmir?

Kashmir means ppl living in valley , the kashmiri pandits, jammu , ladakh and not cyber jihadi's like you.


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## raw@war

Azad Kashmir said:


> Read my post, it does not matter if we get killed. We will always continue to fight. Unless ofcourse you are suggesting in liberation wars nobody gets killed? Usually the freedom fighters take most casualities, but do they stop? No. Understand whenever 1 gets shaheed, pride and pain fill the rest thus another 2 will step into his place. We are like Hydra.



This was not for you.

You never replied, how will you be shaheed, by seating in England.

For this you have to be physically present in Kashmir.

So when can we see you in battlefield.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

prodevelopment said:


> Down boy, down.
> 
> In 60 years, we have not learnt anything? Dude, it's been 60 years. Most of you who have accepted to follow the law live fruitful and healthy lives in Kashmir. But those few who have strayed because of that fundamentalist brainwashing have been  for the past 60 years. Keep up your bullshit and we'll keep  you. Simple as that.
> 
> Oh, and take you empty threats of 'another 9/11' somewhere else. We know how to deal with the likes of you.



Oh really? Read history of Kashmir (last 200 years) I'm not going to type it up for you. In the 60 years you (Indian Army) have killed and raped our people in vast numbers. Stop watching Indian PR, you think people will stop fighting you? WHY are there mass protests in Kashmir that end with death by Indian army? Kill us, kill us all we will not stop, do you think we will not retaliate? Look at Mumbia only 160 people, that is number of Kashmiris that get killed a month or so. We brough whole country to its Knees, it is fact one day 9/11 will happen.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Swift said:


> Sorry to appointment you but u are not getting a inch of kashmir now. By the way what passport u carry , kashmir?
> 
> Kashmir means ppl living in valley , the kashmiri pandits, jammu , ladakh and not cyber jihadi's like you.



Cyber Jihadis? ROFL. Kashmir for me is not Jihad but 'nationalistic' fight. My whole family comes from Kashmir. Don't play dumb. The pre '47 Kashmir included Azad. Do you think Azad and Jammu are not brothers?


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## Swift

Azad Kashmir said:


> Oh really? Read history of Kashmir (last 200 years) I'm not going to type it up for you. In the 60 years you (Indian Army) have killed and raped our people in vast numbers. Stop watching Indian PR, you think people will stop fighting you? WHY are there mass protests in Kashmir that end with death by Indian army? Kill us, kill us all we will not stop, do you think we will not retaliate? Look at Mumbia only 160 people, that is number of Kashmiris that get killed a month or so. We brough whole country to its Knees, it is fact one day 9/11 will happen.



dont bs, just tell me if Ajmal Kasab is Kashmiri?

and u didnt answer what passport you carry?


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## Swift

Azad Kashmir said:


> Cyber Jihadis? ROFL. Kashmir for me is not Jihad but 'nationalistic' fight. My whole family comes from Kashmir. Don't play dumb. The pre '47 Kashmir included Azad. Do you think Azad and Jammu are not brothers?



I am sure you come from kashmir but I asked you you call urself Azad kashmiri but what passport u carry?


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Swift said:


> Sorry to appointment you but u are not getting a inch of kashmir now. By the way what passport u carry , kashmir?
> 
> Kashmir means ppl living in valley , the kashmiri pandits, jammu , ladakh and not cyber jihadi's like you.



So you are saying we will not have an inch of freedom? Then we will continue to resist. I only don't 100% condone killing of civilains because Indian army does it, don't kid yourself if you don't strike back (or just against the army) you won't be effective.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Swift said:


> I am sure you come from kashmir but I asked you you call urself Azad kashmiri but what passport u carry?



Pakistani & Uk. Why? Don't talk some BS, there is no Kashmir passport and I will never hold an Indian passport because of the way you guys kill my people.


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## Prometheus

Azad Kashmir said:


> Pakistani & Uk. Why? Don't talk some BS, there is no Kashmir passport and I will never hold an Indian passport because of the way you guys kill my people.




calm down...........'we guys" dont have guns to kill someone.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Prometheus said:


> calm down...........'we guys" dont have guns to kill someone.



I usually refer to Indian Army as "you guys" "Indians" etc...


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## Swift

Azad Kashmir said:


> Pakistani & Uk. Why? Don't talk some BS, there is no Kashmir passport and I will never hold an Indian passport because of the way you guys kill my people.



Thats what I meant there is no Kashmir passport, its either India or Pakistan. There is no independent kashmir. 

and a reality check , You think this insurgency or terror attack will prop India to gift kashmir to Pakistan . Just come out or you dreams and stop being a proxy. Its either pakistan or India nothing in between.


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## PakistaniPacifist

Kabir Panthi said:


> People of "Azad Kashmir" are not really Kashmiris in that they do not speak Kashmiri. But Gilgit-Baltistan and "Azad Kashmir" are both part of the historical princely state of Jammu & Kashmir.



Kasheer Bolan tu? Fair amount of Kashmir is ethnic kasheer in Pakistan so please don't speak when you have no knowledge in the matter as for India apart from the Valley the rest comprimises heavily of non-ethnic Kashmiri communities and even Kasheer ppl there have problems with it as they try to assert Indian culture and language on them, words echoed by my own Kashmiri friends and family who reside their. Eastern muzaffarbad, Neelam Valley, Gilgit & Baltistan and parts of Hunza, Ishkoman and even Swat have very large communities of kasheer and you'll see people dressed in their own cultural attire. 

Most Kashmiris on the Indian side feel Pakistani, i have met a decent amount of Kashmiri and most feel they have nothing in common with Indians infact many have shown a deep hatred for anything Indian. Some of my own family who are born in Srinigar in a place called Nowhatta love Pakistan with a passion but don't want to leave their ancestoral home and although they have a great resentment for India and Indians in general most love the muslims that reside in that country extremely passionately.

Kashmir Valley is always a part of our wataan and Pakistan is always a part of the Kashmiri Valley.

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## username

dabong1 said:


> I did give you an answer to this but for reason you dont believe me.
> The average pakistani soldier serves 15-20 odd years in the army while the majority of the freedom fighters probaly do more then a year.One or two tours and they retire.
> So to say that the freedom fighters should get the benefits same as a soldier is a bit unfair.
> Off course if theres injury or death then the group that sent the fighter over will take care of him.



I am shocked at you call it a tour, you can see that most of the time when I say terrorists I do put in brackets that you call them freedom fighters. I wish you could be as civil as I am. Atleast do not call it as tours, atleast not when you are replying to an Indian. 

The way their family is taken care is not mentioned by Pakistan at all. Did they get awards, quotas by your government, pension for the family etc...


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## Swift

username said:


> I am shocked at you call it a tour, you can see that most of the time when I say terrorists I do put in brackets that you call them freedom fighters. I wish you could be as civil as I am. Atleast do not call it as tours, atleast not when you are replying to an Indian.
> 
> The way their family is taken care is not mentioned by Pakistan at all. Did they get awards, quotas by your government, pension for the family etc...



Username you are hitting the nail at its head.

similar idea i have expressed in my above post. all the Kashmiri's on the otherside of LOC has a Pakistani passport so they are pakistani then why they have been left to deal with this problem themselves. They hold a passport of a nation which is a strong militarily and boasts of being only muslim nation to have nuclear arms. Why
they have to do this by themselves ?


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Prometheus said:


> according to Mr.Agnostic muslim ( our super mod)........Who kills innocents is a terrorists............and supporting terrorists is against forum rulz
> 
> People who got killed in Mumbai were innocents
> even 5 year old kids got shot by terrorists in mumbai



What about children and women raped by Indian army?, Killed by Indian army???


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

username said:


> I am shocked at you call it a tour, you can see that most of the time when I say terrorists I do put in brackets that you call them freedom fighters. I wish you could be as civil as I am. Atleast do not call it as tours, atleast not when you are replying to an Indian.
> 
> The way their family is taken care is not mentioned by Pakistan at all. Did they get awards, quotas by your government, pension for the family etc...



This matter has been cleared up before, families recieve income and a lump sum on eid.


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## KS

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> A cousin of mine went for Kashmir Jihad 8 years back when he was 20..
> Love to go myself..



Wat a waste of god-given life..? When r these people going to realise the futility..?

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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Karthic Sri said:


> Wat a waste of god-given life..? When r these people going to realise the futility..?



We fight for our children's future, for our brothers future. Using your statement I can say a soldier is wasting his life.


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## Swift

Azad Kashmir said:


> LOOOOOOOOOL, go on. I simply posted a rational statement. There will be more terror attacks in India like there will be more in Pakistan (even though situation is different), because terrioists/freedom fighters will want to kill your people because you (Indian Army) have killed my people.
> 
> Report me all you want, If I was a terrioist I would be behind a proxy, I'm not. Furthermore would I use my own PC? No, I'm not dumb, computers are my hobby.



Instead of blackmailing / threatning others why not tell your masters to use there mighty army to get your rightful freedom. 

Six decades has gone and it hasnt happend and it will never happend just learn to live peacefully wherever you are. I will tell you the truth fight is more for getting political upper hand, water resources and less of Kashmir.


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## hillman32

Karthic Sri said:


> @ P-O-K (No Indian knows the Azad Kashmir )
> 
> Dude then y sitting in a Cozy room in UK with a mouse/keyboard in hand...Why not take a kalashnikov and come down to Kashmir (Plz tel me before hand so that we can prepare a fitting welcome party for u )



I had been there in Indian Occupied Kashmir many times.

I exactly know the worth of Indian Army Officers.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

username said:


> Exactly their army can't fight, that's why these so called proxies. What a crap idea.
> 
> If you want to see them as your own people send your uniformed men. That is what the job of uniformed men is, protect the people.



You are trying to say that I want all of Kashmir to go to Pakistan no. What I want is a plebicite/vote to determine what people want. Under India that will never happen, India will always massacre us.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Swift said:


> Instead of blackmailing / threatning others why not tell your masters to use there mighty army to get your rightful freedom.
> 
> Six decades has gone and it hasnt happend and it will never happend just learn to live peacefully wherever you are. I will tell you the truth fight is more for getting political upper hand, water resources and less of Kashmir.



You can't argue so you make worthless BS statements. Firstly, do you think a civilain has the power to make a Military Commander do what he wants? No. Secondly an all out war would be bad because, it would result in Nukes being dropped aswell as a loss in life, both countries do not have the $$$ to fight a war. You are also missing the point, Pakistan supports the Freedom Fighters because Kashmiris want their freedom, not Pakistan although Pakistan supports them and wants to help them.


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## raw@war

Azad Kashmir said:


> You are trying to say that I want all of Kashmir to go to Pakistan no. What I want is a plebicite/vote to determine what people want. Under India that will never happen, India will always massacre us.



From Jihad to Plebecite.

Have some Gripe Water and just chill.....


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Karthic Sri said:


> @ P-O-K (No Indian knows the Azad Kashmir )
> 
> Dude then y sitting in a Cozy room in UK with a mouse/keyboard in hand...Why not take a kalashnikov and come down to Kashmir (Plz tel me before hand so that we can prepare a fitting welcome party for u )



Please explain how AJK is P-O,-K, then I will rebutt each statementAlso for you second statement username will report me to UK Terror Police who will come down and bust down my door and blow my head off with RPG[/sarcasm] 

Also neccessarily supporting a Freedom Fighting group does not mean that I am a terrioist etc..., this way I can make point that because Indian people support their Army they are all barbaric terroists in Uniform.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

raw@war said:


> From Jihad to Plebecite.
> 
> Have some Gripe Water and just chill.....



Not really, I support a pleblisticite in Kashmir currently (Under UN observation) but that will not happen. And we cannot stand by and let atrocities happen so we resist and then when we have resisted pleblicite should be held with all options including free kashmir.


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## hillman32

Karthic Sri said:


> I bet u had not been there....if u had been there..u would not have been here supporting the terrorists...got my drift.?




I was working with Hizb-e-Mujahideen and I covered many of their raids on Indian Army.


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## KS

hillman32 said:


> I was working with Hizb-e-Mujahideen and I covered many of their raids on Indian Army.



I bet u were just bringing food,water,cleaning tables in the camps...
cos if u had taken a Kalashnikov and crossed the border u wouldn be here typing the reply to me.

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## foxbat

Azad Kashmir said:


> Oh really? Read history of Kashmir (last 200 years) I'm not going to type it up for you. In the 60 years you (Indian Army) have killed and raped our people in vast numbers. Stop watching Indian PR, you think people will stop fighting you? WHY are there mass protests in Kashmir that end with death by Indian army? Kill us, kill us all we will not stop, do you think we will not retaliate? Look at Mumbia only 160 people, that is number of Kashmiris that get killed a month or so. We brough whole country to its Knees, it is fact one day 9/11 will happen.



Does anyone know how to repoort this to authorities. Associating Mumbai attack with himself, this guy is proclaiming to be a terrorist that is above and beyond support of terrorism. Mods or some other member should report this to the Anti Terrorism authorities in UK. 

I am surprised that these posts are live on this forum after so many hours


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## hillman32

Prometheus said:


> raids on Indian army and bro you survived??????
> 
> talk sense mate...............this is not a joke section



I do not have to boost my achievements but facts are fact that most corrupt army officers are found in Indian Army who sell their weapons and ammunition to Mujahideens.............


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## Prometheus

hillman32 said:


> I do not have to boost my achievements but facts are fact that most corrupt army officers are found in Indian Army who sell their weapons and ammunition to Mujahideens.............


Hail Indian army


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## bc040400065

EjazR said:


> ^^^
> Well it would be more accurate to say that are there any people from the historical Jammu and Kashmir I guess.
> 
> In Pakistan, only people from around Muzaffarabad are from the Kashmir valley. *Mirpuris are more Punjabi than Kashmir *ethnically and linguistically



sorry dear but your are wrong... just because one speaks punjabi does not mean that their history has changed... kashmir has many linguistic colors and there are many languages spoken in kashmir...
Kashmiri is only spoken in the valley area as far as the Muzaffaabad in concern they speak Hindko and Paharhi and some areas Kohistani/ Gojri etc. so just because people in Mirpur and some Jammu area as well speak Punjabi does not mean that they are not kashmiris.

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## JonAsad

Well i have met alot of mirpuri ppl belonging to AJK in United Kingdom.
I have no regret in saying that most of them like to call them Kashmiris not Pakistani.

I can understand if ppl from IoK call them Kashmiris instead of indians but ppl from AJK specially mirpuri calling them kashmiris intead of Pakistani really pisses me off.
What are we fighting with India for? 
Their independence?


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## Patriot

^ That's because its new generation and they've never been to Pakistan.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Yeah what Patriot said, tbh I feel Pakistani too. Zaki, I agree with you having Kashmir treated differently will only lead to more ethnic splits in Pakistan. I only suggested it to represent J&K aswell because they are not currently with us

jonassad, most are un educated about their culture, I could point to 5 Kashmiris in my class that don't know as muchas they should about Kashmir, that's one of the dangers with the diaspora, people may lose their roots.

Also, EjaZer, Kashmiri as in the actual language is spoken mostly in the valley but because of how India was before & during Raj other languages have found they're way in to Kashmir. It's like saying just because one does not speak Hindi they are not Indian. Please stay off from this thread if your only point is to argue about Kashmir.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

@dabong 1

Yeah, a Kashmir (not just AJK) as a province in Pakistan would be like a dream come true but it's up to the majority of the people who live there since it's there land too.

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## Swift

Self delete


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*I already warned members, on this thread and the announcement thread, that the 'no support for terrorism warning' was for moderators to implement, and not for members to use as a harassment tool - the latter is pretty much what most Indian members have engaged in on this thread since that warning.


If you have issues with a particular post then report it, and if you wish to, follow up on action or lack of action on the post in private through PM with a moderator. 

DO NOT raise the issue on the forum. It will be considered member harassment and people will get banned for doing it.

On the post in question, since everyone took their concerns public, the concerned member clarified his comments repeatedly, and I see no reason to take any action.*


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## honour

dabong1 said:


> Did you bother reading the full debate? or just jump in half way
> The point was about if the freedom fighters where uneducated or educated
> 
> 
> 
> No the guys not a freedom fighter....his accused of trying to blow up a car bomb in time square,a straight terrorist in my book.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When did i call Mr Rehman a terrorist?
> I dont like happened in 1971 but Mr Rehman in my opinion was more right then the west pakistani govt.......he won the elections and he should have been the PM or we accept his demand.
> 
> If where checking souls please check your own and tell me why the indians dont let the kashmir choose what they want.



i used " YOU"for most of the Pakistani members...in the forum....i have read posts calling Mr. Rehman a terrorist...u also must have read them......well don't use this line of "choose" again ...no country will leave its state to choose whatever it wants....and if you are so affected by your so called "freedom fighters" ,why don't you try to take up the cause of Tibet...why have this one sided attitude..

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## honour

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> A cousin of mine went for Kashmir Jihad 8 years back when he was 20..
> *Love to go myself..*
> U never know.
> TILL LASY DROP OF BLOOD.....WE WILL NEVER FORGET KASHMIR.
> PAKISTAN ZINDABAD
> FREE KASHMIR
> MUJAHIDEEN PAINDABAD.



Love to go....u are certainly welcome......come and join them....dont just blast in front of PC.....

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## Jackdaws

pandamonkey said:


> This is the most retarded report i have ever read. My entire family, my entire clan which numbers in the hundred of thousands lives in ajk. While living in the U.S. my mom and dad call back to akj almost everday. If their was any problems we would know about it. This reporter is saying that their is no freedom in ajk???? Pakistani goverment not letting the ajk saying anything???? Then how in the hell was he able to write this article. This newssite is based out of lahore. He is wrting about it right now isn't he?????? anyone stopping him from writing this paper. ?????????????



I too have close Kashmiri Muslim friends who still have family in Srinagar - immediate family, not distant relatives. But I don't think my well-to-do friend's family is representative of all Kashmiri Muslims who definitely suffer indignities with Army presence.


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## KS

^^^^^^^

Bullz Eye Bro......


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

As as Kashmiri from AJK, and having been there and lived there many times I have mever seen such nonesense. You are free to support any party you want. I walked freely in the Bazaar with my family, I ate kebabs, bought chips, pakoras. I went to a Computer shop to check the price of s Ps3 and some games. I bought films. I had complete freedom wherev in AJK I went and I went as far as Kotli and near "Thattha Pani". So close I could hear the sounds of border firing. This is absolute BS get me 10 people who live in AJK and they can tell you their life their. Oh and btw I live in a AJK village and there is VERY strong patriotic feelings for Pakistan, debates can be heard at the local shops + tea shop, deabtes about Pakistan's affairs.


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## ambidex

Azad Kashmir said:


> As as Kashmiri from AJK, and having been there and lived there many times I have mever seen such nonesense. You are free to support any party you want. I walked freely in the Bazaar with my family, I ate kebabs, bought chips, pakoras. I went to a Computer shop to check the price of s Ps3 and some games. I bought films. I had complete freedom wherev in AJK I went and I went as far as Kotli and near "Thattha Pani". So close I could hear the sounds of border firing. This is absolute BS get me 10 people who live in AJK and they can tell you their life their. Oh and btw I live in a AJK village and there is VERY strong patriotic feelings for Pakistan, debates can be heard at the local shops + tea shop, deabtes about Pakistan's affairs.


 
What an emotional story...
I been to Kashmir 100s of times, my wife is a Kashmiri. Your crocodile tears are nothing but a sheer crap. The way you are trying to portrait *** and India's Kashmir is nauseating. 

Pakistan governed Kashmir is an Indian state and no one will talk to you for once when India will claim that part of the Kashmir forever or will negotiate with (ever changing stands) Pakistan without your opinion . If you think you are comfortable here by doing an this act of anarchy against union of India then i must tell you that India side has better opportunities for Kashmiri to grow prosper. Today Kashmiri can afford to buy world's luxuries and comforts from any one market in Kashmir. Kashmiri are working in all Indian states in multi national companies competing in all national exams of your choice; quenching world class education and joining sports politics music industry etc. at whim.

So don't tell us how free are you in your valley, you freedom is not the typical freedom, which I can prove with one single line but that will further challenge our stand which enable us not to recognise what is enforced on so called AJK. Cut the crap try to think rational and feel the power being an Indian its never too late. 

Subha ka bhula sham ko vapis aa jaye to use bhula nahi kehte.


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## new wave

Feel the power being an Indian its never too late ?

What power, power to eat mud ?
With not enough food, children learn to eat mud - Economy and Politics - livemint.com

*Free India occupied Kashmir*


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## prodevelopment

new wave said:


> Feel the power being an Indian its never too late ?
> 
> What power, power to eat mud ?
> With not enough food, children learn to eat mud - Economy and Politics - livemint.com
> 
> *Free India occupied Kashmir*



What a load of irrelevant horseshit.

At least learn to make coherent sentences.

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## pandamonkey

Here is a list of kashmiris fom AJK who have held high positions in pakistan.

Notable Kashmiris
Sardar Mohammad Abdul Qayyum Khan, former PM and president of Azad Kashmir 
Mian Muhammad Bakhsh, Sufi saint 
Baba-e-Poonch Khansahib Col Khan Muhammad Khan, MLA for Tehsil Bagh and Sudhonoti, 1934&#8211;1946 
Aziz Khan, former chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee Pakistan 
Sardar Sikandar Hayat Khan, former PM and president of Azad Kashmir 
Sardar Muhammad Anwar Khan, vice-chief of the General Staff 
Baba Shadi Shaheed, Sufi saint 
Tassadaq Hussain Khan, former army chief 
Barrister Sultan Mahmood, former prime minister of Azad Kashmir 
Lord Nazir Ahmed, member of the UK House of Lords 
Karam Hussain, mayor of Kirklees, UK 
Khalid Mahmood, member of the UK parliament 
Sardar Fateh Muhammad Khan Karelvi, Muslim MLA during Dogra rule 
Kabir Ali, British-Kashmiri cricket player 

Azad Kashmir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## pandamonkey

Now note the following people.

Aziz Khan, former chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee Pakistan 
Sardar Muhammad Anwar Khan, vice-chief of the General Staff 
*Tassadaq Hussain Khan, former army chief *
Tassadaq khan by the way was also the chief of the Oman army, after he retired from paksitan army.
has their ever been a army chief from kashimir on the indian side????????????????????


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## pandamonkey

The literacy rate in Azad Kashmir was 62&#37; in 2004, higher than in any other region in Pakistan. If their rights were been supressed, you would know about it. The largest southasian immigrant group are AJK kashmiris.

---------- Post added at 11:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 PM ----------

The largest southasian immigrant group are AJK kashmiris in U.K.


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## pandamonkey

mirpur is virtually full of british citizens.


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## Swift

UNHCR | Refworld | Freedom in the World 2008 - Kashmir [Pakistan]


Just have a look at above link. and one question all web you will have blogs and reports of Indian side oh kashmir but hardly any one Pakistan side what could be the reason?


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## pandamonkey

ooo and by the way i have a question for the indian members. how many refuges from ajk are in indian held kashmir????
the amount of refuges from the indian side in ajk are 1.5 million.


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## Swift

Challenges, Options And Role Of Kashmiri Diaspora

By Dr Shabir Choudhry

03 May, 2010
Countercurrents.org

Text of speech of Dr Shabir Choudhry in a seminar arranged by United Kashmir Peoples National Party in London on 25 April 2010.

Mr Chairman, friends and colleagues aslamo alaykam

Some previous speakers have said Pakistan is an advocate or wakeel of people of Jammu and Kashmir; and that Pakistan has suffered because of the support rendered to the people of Kashmir. They further said Pakistan has done many favours to people of Kashmir; and have kept the Kashmir dispute alive.

That is one way of looking at things, but there is, of course, an alternative view. I want to present that alternative view that people could understand facts about Pakistan&#8217;s support for Kashmir; and &#8216;favour&#8217; Pakistan has done to people of Jammu and Kashmir.

Advocate or wakeel is always appointed or dismissed by a client. People of Jammu and Kashmir did not appoint Pakistan as their advocate, wakeel or representative. Pakistan is self appointed advocate and we have no faith in Pakistan&#8217;s sincerity or skills to promote our cause or protect our interests.

Furthermore, when the Kashmir dispute was taken to the UN Security Council by India it was registered there as the Kashmir Problem. It clearly indicated that the issue related to a separate territory other than India or Pakistan; and to the people of Jammu and Kashmir. First &#8216;favour&#8217; the government of Pakistan did to the people of Jammu and Kashmir was to change that to India and Pakistan problem.

What this showed was that the problem was related to India and Pakistan and not to the people of Jammu and Kashmir. It also showed that Jammu and Kashmir was not a separate territory and people of that territory did not have separate identity and separate existence. It further showed that the dispute was a territorial one; and was not related to nation, its identity and future aspirations.

Let me now explain the second &#8216;favour&#8217; the government of Pakistan did to the people of Jammu and Kashmir. The UNCIP Resolution of 13 August 1948 stated that &#8216;the future status of the State of Jammu and Kashmir shall be determined in accordance with the will of the people and to that end, upon acceptance of the Truce Agreement both Governments agree to enter into consultations with the Commission to determine fair and equitable conditions whereby such free expression will be assured.&#8217;

The phrase &#8216;future status&#8217; could mean an accession to Pakistan, an accession to India or an independent Jammu and Kashmir; and when this was confirmed by the UN, it was the government of Pakistan which requested the UN Security Council to change this phrase and replace it with the following: &#8216;The question of the accession of the State of Jammu and Kashmir to India or Pakistan will be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite.&#8217;

So it was Pakistan and not India, which limited Kashmiri peoples right of self determination to right of accession.

This self appointed advocate or wakeel thinks we people of Jammu and Kashmir do not deserve to be an independent nation. They think we do not deserve to use right of self determination. They think we do not deserve to benefit from fruits of independence and democracy. It was because of this thinking they did us another &#8216;favour&#8217;, and limited our right of self determination to right of accession. However they have &#8216;kindly&#8217; allowed us - people of Jammu and Kashmir to choose our masters in the form of either acceding to India or Pakistan.

We, people of Jammu and Kashmir, are urged to join Pakistan &#8211; a country which has no system of accountability, no transparency, no democracy, no political stability, no rule of law, no concept of civil liberties, no economic stability, no electricity, no gas, no place for merit or honesty and which is at war with itself. A country which is in chaos, where terrorists are calling shots, where communal rivalry and violence is promoted, where government has no control in some parts of the country; and where some parts want to break away from the federation and future looks bleak.

People say there is no comparison between two sides of Kashmir because India has more than half million troops there. I agree there is no comparison. It is true there are more than half million troops. It is also true human rights abuse take place there, but despite 21 years of militancy, destruction and instability that area is far ahead of Pakistani Administered Kashmir.

They have what we cannot even dream of on this side of the LOC. They have medical colleges, technical colleges, engineering colleges, free education, high literacy rate, freedom of speech, freedom of travel, freedom to protest etc. They have human rights abuses but they have a system of recording those abuses and highlighting them.

Don&#8217;t be under any illusion, human rights abuse also takes place on this side of the LOC, but we have no system of recording that; in fact, no one dares to speak against that because of the repercussions. Leaders on that side of the LOC shout against India and yet they travel to all parts of Jammu and Kashmir, visit Pakistani High Commission in New Delhi and eat chicken tikkas.

Whereas on this side of the LOC, Azad Kashmiri Prime Minister and President cannot even travel to Gilgit Baltistan, and area part of the State. Azad Kashmiri leaders and political activists cannot even think of going to the Indian High Commission in Islamabad. They are not even allowed to have peaceful demonstrations and prime examples are the demonstrations of Mirpur and Rawalakot, where people demonstrated against electric load shedding and problems associated with that.

More electricity is produced in Mirpur and other parts of Azad Kashmir than our requirement, and that electricity is used in Pakistan and we don&#8217;t get enough to meet our needs. People of Mirpur and Rawalakot were demanding electricity and an end to more than 14 hours a day load shedding. They were peaceful and they had no guns, and yet they were mercilessly beaten up and guns were used against them injuring scores of innocent people.

Just imagine if these people were trained by India, guns were provided by them and these guns were used against Pakistani army in Azad Kashmir, then you would know what human rights abuse is. Everyone knows it was Pakistan who trained militants, gave them guns, and asked them to use them against the Indian army. India reacted and committed human rights abuses, and now they have more than half million army there. No one can defend that. But ask yourself if they had half million army there before the start of the militancy. Answer is no. So those who started militancy, trained men, sent guns and bombs provided a reason for India to station this large army there.

Many more examples could be given to explain the situation regarding two parts of Kashmir, but due to time I cannot go in to details. But I have to tell you some more facts, bitter as they are. Those leaders and parties who preach you to liberate the Valley of Kashmir or Indian side of Jammu and Kashmir first are not sincere with the cause of Kashmir.

In disguise these people are promoting someone else&#8217;s agenda. Their aim is not to liberate Kashmir, but to promote interests of those who want to keep India engaged in Jammu and Kashmir. They want to give this impression that problem is only on the Indian side of the divide, and on the Pakistani side of the divide everything is rosy. That is not true. This part is also occupied, but people are hoodwinked in name of religion and brotherhood. We should learn how Pakistan has practically annexed our motherland - area of Gilgit Baltistan.

On this side of the LOC, we are occupied by Pakistan. Our resources are exploited by them. Our struggle is on this side of the divide. My struggle starts from Bhimber. It starts from Mirpur and Kotli and other parts of Pakistani Administered Kashmir. People of the Indian side of Kashmir are struggling for independence on that side of the divide and they are making big sacrifices. I feel their suffering. I admire their spirit and sacrifices. I fully support that struggle; and want to help and advance the cause of united and independent Jammu and Kashmir.

My words might appear harsh, and some might call this &#8216;anti Pakistan&#8217;. I am not anti Pakistan; in fact no Kashmiri is anti Pakistan. Examples I have given regarding Pakistani role are historical facts. I am not here to promote a Pakistani interest. My mission is to promote a Kashmiri interest and explain to people who have done what against us to harm us, and to enslave us. In discharging this duty if another country&#8217;s strategic or other interest are damaged it DOES NOT worry me. It DOES NOT worry me if people dislike or oppose me for promoting a Kashmiri interest.

In conclusion, we people are faced with challenges of extremism, violence and hatred. We are challenged by anti democratic anti liberal forces. We people of Jammu and Kashmir do not have many choices. We have only two choices: accept this intimidation and occupation and become collaborators, or stand up and oppose them. Come what may, we have decided to stand up and fight them back. END

Writer is Director Diplomatic Committee of Kashmir National Party, political analyst and author of many books and booklets. Also he is Director Institute of Kashmir Affairs.Email:drshabirchoudhry@gmail.com


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## Swift

here were reports that in Pakistan-administered Kashmir, following the October 2005 earthquake, some armed groups were involved in establishing schools, and anecdotal evidence that they were recruiting children.19

In July 2007 it was reported that a 14-year-old boy was returned to his family in Pakistan after being recruited from a madrasa in South Waziristan, trained and sent over the border to carry out a suicide attack on a provincial governor in Afghanistan, where he was detained by security forces before he could carry out the attack. The boy reportedly alleged that at least two other boys from his madrasa had been indoctrinated to carry out suicide attacks.20 Another report indicated that in towns on the edge of Pakistan&#8217;s tribal belt children aged between 11 and 15 were being recruited from schools by pro-Taleban insurgents and trained in Afghanistan as suicide bombers. Young boys were reported to have been lured by the promise of adventure and sacrifice, but reports also indicated that there was a degree of coercion and that parents and teachers feared retaliation if they prevented children from going.21

One suicide attack by a child took place in Pakistan. In September 2007 it was reported that a suicide bomber aged about 15 or 16 had blown himself up in the town of Dera Ismail Khan in NWFP, killing himself and 17 others, in the context of a wave of attacks by pro-Taleban militants in the area following the July 2007 siege of the Lal Masjid.22

A number of children were caught up in the siege of the Lal Masjid. Many were young girls and boys who were students at the two madrasas associated with the Lal Masjid. Those carrying and using weapons were reported to be students over the age of 18.23

In July 2007 a national child rights organization expressed concern about the recruitment and training of children and their training and preparation for military action and conflict. In urging the government to ratify the Optional Protocol and take action to protect children from recruitment it referred to unconfirmed reports of the involvement of children as young as 15 in political violence in Karachi in May 2007, as well as at the Lal Masjid in Islamabad in July 2007.24


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## pandamonkey

are any of you indians,, kashmiri????????????????????? have any of you ever been to AJK????????????? would you guys believe something written on paper or something that people who live in ajk and have family in ajk are telling you????


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## pandamonkey

how many refugees from ajk are on the indian side of kashmir??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? anwer that. if the kashmiris are being supressed and all the other bull by this dr. choudry then the indian side should be full of people from ajk seeking indian help. why is it then that their are 1.5 million refugees from the indian side of kashmir in Azad jammu and kashmir?????????????????????????????


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## Swift

pandamonkey said:


> how many refugees from ajk are on the indian side of kashmir??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? anwer that. if the kashmiris are being supressed and all the other bull by this dr. choudry then the indian side should be full of people from ajk seeking indian help. why is it then that their are 1.5 million refugees from the indian side of kashmir in Azad jammu and kashmir?????????????????????????????


 
Your source? Wikipedia?


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## pandamonkey

noooooo my source is not wikipidia. its the un 2008 report. the same report that says ajk on pak side is not free. 

"the Azad Kashmir government manages relief camps for refugees from Indian-administered Kashmir, the bulk of whom arrived after the situation on the Indian side worsened in 1989. Many more of the refugees (roughly 1.5 million) live elsewhere in Azad Kashmir and throughout Pakistan."
UNHCR | Refworld | Freedom in the World 2008 - Kashmir [Pakistan]
the paragraph before the last one.

again same question to my indian friends. 
Why is it that despite having a rating of "not free" from the United nations report their are 1.5 million refugees from the indian side of kashmir. 
if what all of you, indian friends, are saying is true, then shouldn't it be the indian side of kashmir were their are 1.5 million refugees.


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## pandamonkey

note one more thing, this report is not counting the all of the refugees from indian side. 
*the Azad Kashmir government manages relief camps for refugees from Indian-administered Kashmir, the bulk of whom arrived after the situation on the Indian side worsened in 1989.* 1.5 million live outside these camps. so the total amount of refugees from indian side in from near the figure of 2.5 million.


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## Swift

pandamonkey said:


> noooooo my source is not wikipidia. its the un 2008 report. the same report that says ajk on pak side is not free.
> 
> "the Azad Kashmir government manages relief camps for refugees from Indian-administered Kashmir, the bulk of whom arrived after the situation on the Indian side worsened in 1989. Many more of the refugees (roughly 1.5 million) live elsewhere in Azad Kashmir and throughout Pakistan."
> UNHCR | Refworld | Freedom in the World 2008 - Kashmir [Pakistan]
> the paragraph before the last one.
> 
> again same question to my indian friends.
> Why is it that despite having a rating of "not free" from the United nations report their are 1.5 million refugees from the indian side of kashmir.
> if what all of you, indian friends, are saying is true, then shouldn't it be the indian side of kashmir were their are 1.5 million refugees.



I will tell u why, though I m not sure about the numbers but I am sure some of the families/youth from Indian Kashmir have migrated to P-O-K for the search of 'AZAD KASHMIR' which the never found. Even recently many youth who migrated want to come back to this side and GOI is mulling on an amnesty scheme as well.

Kashmiris wanting to return from Azad Kashmir welcome: Centre

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Swift said:


> I will tell u why, though I m not sure about the numbers *but I am sure some of the families/youth from Indian Kashmir have migrated to P-O-K for the search of 'AZAD KASHMIR' which the never found.* Even recently many youth who migrated want to come back to this side and GOI is mulling on an amnesty scheme as well.
> 
> Kashmiris wanting to return from *** welcome: Centre




Yeah right.....Keep wet dreamin...


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## Swift

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Yeah right.....Keep wet dreamin...



Dreaming ? You tell me where is Azad KASHMIR?

How many hold the passport of azad kashmir. for more details read the firs post of the thread.


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## bc040400065

ambidex said:


> What an emotional story...
> I been to Kashmir 100s of times, my wife is a Kashmiri. Your crocodile tears are nothing but a sheer crap. The way you are trying to portrait *** and India's Kashmir is nauseating.
> 
> Pakistan governed Kashmir is an Indian state and no one will talk to you for once when India will claim that part of the Kashmir forever or will negotiate with (ever changing stands) Pakistan without your opinion . If you think you are comfortable here by doing an this act of anarchy against union of India then i must tell you that India side has better opportunities for Kashmiri to grow prosper. Today Kashmiri can afford to buy world's luxuries and comforts from any one market in Kashmir. Kashmiri are working in all Indian states in multi national companies competing in all national exams of your choice; quenching world class education and joining sports politics music industry etc. at whim.
> 
> So don't tell us how free are you in your valley, you freedom is not the typical freedom, which I can prove with one single line but that will further challenge our stand which enable us not to recognise what is enforced on so called AJK. Cut the crap try to think rational and feel the power being an Indian its never too late.
> 
> Subha ka bhula sham ko vapis aa jaye to use bhula nahi kehte.




wow what a democratic thinking you have... wow me surprized... is this democracy ??? What the hell you have to do with his life??? if he feels free and love with pakistan then why it is a matter of concern for you??? go dear learn to respect others feeling and then comment and try not to hurt others feelings... you have no right for forcing anyone to be indian or love india when they don't want to... And this is the basic rule of democracy.....


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## Raghu

pandamonkey said:


> note one more thing, this report is not counting the all of the refugees from indian side.
> *the Azad Kashmir government manages relief camps for refugees from Indian-administered Kashmir, the bulk of whom arrived after the situation on the Indian side worsened in 1989.* 1.5 million live outside these camps. so the total amount of refugees from indian side in from near the figure of 2.5 million.



These are impossible numbers.The entire population of J&K is 1.5 cr(2010 estimate)

Moreover Kashmir never saw that kind of mass migration to ***.

*The manner in which that sentence is written is confusing.I challenge u give to any other source that quote similar statistics.*


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## kallol

pandamonkey said:


> note one more thing, this report is not counting the all of the refugees from indian side.
> *the Azad Kashmir government manages relief camps for refugees from Indian-administered Kashmir, the bulk of whom arrived after the situation on the Indian side worsened in 1989.* 1.5 million live outside these camps. so the total amount of refugees from indian side in from near the figure of 2.5 million.



2.5 million !!! Need more dfinitive proof that they are all from this side. 

Questions :

1. When did this refugees come to Pakistan ?

2. Why do you think they are going there ?

3. Do you think the so called "freedom fighter" from so called "Azad Kashmir" have also contributed to this ? also in a way by the policies of Pakistan Govt and military and ISI. 

4. Do you think they have better living prospects than if they had located in other places in India ? I know lots of Kashmiries have settled down in many other states. Actually I use to provide tution to their children 

If Pakistan is really well wisher of Kashmiries then they should help India to ensure better life to Kashmiries and not encourage millitancy. 
As you have seen (you might not have liked) that the life of the Kashmiries in India has been better before 1989 and have turned for better in last 8 years. I am sure in another 10-20 years they would as prosperous as any other sate in India - ofcourse there is one catch - they would require Pakistan's support.  

But, be honest, would you like this situation. I am sure the prosperity of Kashmiries are not in your interest. 

Let us both try to do what best we can do.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

ambidex said:


> What an emotional story...
> I been to Kashmir 100s of times, my wife is a Kashmiri. Your crocodile tears are nothing but a sheer crap. The way you are trying to portrait *** and India's Kashmir is nauseating.
> 
> Pakistan governed Kashmir is an Indian state and no one will talk to you for once when India will claim that part of the Kashmir forever or will negotiate with (ever changing stands) Pakistan without your opinion . If you think you are comfortable here by doing an this act of anarchy against union of India then i must tell you that India side has better opportunities for Kashmiri to grow prosper. Today Kashmiri can afford to buy world's luxuries and comforts from any one market in Kashmir. Kashmiri are working in all Indian states in multi national companies competing in all national exams of your choice; quenching world class education and joining sports politics music industry etc. at whim.
> 
> So don't tell us how free are you in your valley, you freedom is not the typical freedom, which I can prove with one single line but that will further challenge our stand which enable us not to recognise what is enforced on so called AJK. Cut the crap try to think rational and feel the power being an Indian its never too late.
> 
> Subha ka bhula sham ko vapis aa jaye to use bhula nahi kehte.



AJK Kashmiris can do that to, I don't know what your trying to imply but whatever it is, it is clearly baseless. What about the rapes, massacres in J&K? The mass protests against Indian rule? We are all proud of Pakistan, Pakistanis are our brothers. I have travelled to Pakistan, I did not meet even a single soldier on my way to Pakistan from AJK. If you walk into any resturant in Pakistan you will see donations for Kashmir. That is our bond. Why would we want to be Indian? Please read some history, for your benifit I will give some: 

Northern muslim majority states in Britsh Raj were to go to Pakistan

In the 7 thousand year history of Pakistan, Kashmir has been a part of it.

It was conquered by Sikh armies then few years later British like rest of British Raj, then sold to Maharaja, which does makes his monarchy invalid since Kashmir was bought. 

Under Maharaja's rule Muslim majority Kashmiris were persecuted, atrocieties commited against them.


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## ambidex

bc040400065 said:


> wow what a democratic thinking you have... wow me surprized... is this democracy ??? What the hell you have to do with his life??? if he feels free and love with pakistan then why it is a matter of concern for you??? go dear learn to respect others feeling and then comment and try not to hurt others feelings... you have no right for forcing anyone to be indian or love india when they don't want to... And this is the basic rule of democracy.....



Democratic thinking is to keep nation intact not punched out. Although I strongly oppose any anti Pakistan movement in Baluchistan. But I would like to know if you can say same about them, just in case. 

I have read his previous posts as well so don't try to tell me that I am mucking around here like a headless chicken.
I am not forcing I am telling the truth.Time may have made AJK Kashmiris more near to Pakistan but being an Indian i have all the right to keep the ball at your court, you know what i mean? (I am an honest man). 

There is a contradictions with his statement and poor understanding of the deep seated dispute. AJK is Pakistani invention and he has no cure but to endure that without a flag and identity. What i am giving him back is his lost a real identity of an Indian. 

Furthermore what will happen when this issue will be resolved and his dependency on both of the nations is what I am trying to mention.
Regards.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Furthermore, my Grandad has a story he tells many times to me and other family members about Kashmir before '47.

Before '47 Kashmiri Muslims were RULED by local Sikhs and Hindus, my grandad remembers a local tea shop (which has been rebuilt) in in my village where a Sikh/Hindu lived who controlled the local village. If he did not like anybody they were taken away by Policy, fined heavily, tortured or killed. We were not allowed to eat cow/buffalo (since buffalo are more abundant in Kashmir), and used to eat only vegetables because they couldn't eat their chickens because they were poor and needed to keep good egg:chicken ratio. Cow/Buffalo meat was banned and you could be jailed (and beaten or killed), fined if you were SUSPECTED of having eat it.

Pakistani "Army" came and liberated my village, the story of my families fortune changed. In a few years after this we had many livestock and fields to grow crops. We eat more freely and were allowed to hear our Azaan from the Mosque allowed.

I once asked my grandad if we were Kashmiri/Pakistani/Indian, he said we were Pakistani because Pakistan is a county and Kashmir is a part of it. 

Now this does not mean Hindus/Sikhs are our enemies, no they are our fellow brothers. Because of the Maharaja we have diviosions. If Kashmir were to become part of Pakistan and Hindus/Sikhs were killed then Kashmiris leaving by them would be one of the first to pick up their guns and defend them.

NOTE: I believe in the KASHMIRI people to decide their future, I would prefer Kashmir to join Pakistan but that is not my choice it is the peoples choice. Kashmir would never join India and that is a fact, do not delude yourselves and look at some un biased facts from credible resources. If Kashmir were an Independent I would still consider Pakistanis my brothers.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

ambidex said:


> Democratic thinking is to keep nation intact not punched out. Although I strongly oppose any anti Pakistan movement in Baluchistan. But I would like to know if you can say same about them, just in case.
> 
> I have read his previous posts as well so don't try to tell me that I am mucking around here like a headless chicken.
> I am not forcing I am telling the truth.Time may have made AJK Kashmiris more near to Pakistan but being an Indian i have all the right to keep the ball at your court, you know what i mean? (I am an honest man).
> 
> There is a contradictions with his statement and poor understanding of the deep seated dispute. AJK is Pakistani invention and he has no cure but to endure that without a flag and identity. What i am giving him back is his lost a real identity of an Indian.
> 
> Furthermore what will happen when this issue will be resolved and his dependency on both of the nations is what I am trying to mention.
> Regards.



You should read history and my story posted aboveKashmir has been part of Pakistan for thousands of years.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Swift said:


> I will tell u why, though I m not sure about the numbers but I am sure some of the families/youth from Indian Kashmir have migrated to P-O-K for the search of 'AZAD KASHMIR' which the never found. Even recently many youth who migrated want to come back to this side and GOI is mulling on an amnesty scheme as well.
> 
> Kashmiris wanting to return from *** welcome: Centre



Actually that was just for Freedom Fighters I believe. Most of these stories are written by Indian Media so they will be bias. I am sure some Freedom Fighters wish to go home to their families but many may not.

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## Frankenstein

RobbieS said:


> I heard the same from my Kashmiri classmates in Delhi. They dont consider Mirpuris and other folks beyond the LOC as Kashmiris as they hardly speak the language. No offense but in fact they were joking about about how UK based Mirpuris proudly call themselves Kashmiris but are hardly so. Could be just a couple of folks' opinion but thats what they told me.



There were 40% kashmiris in my previous school, they always communicate withe each other in Kashmiri, dont know what your folks told u


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## Realist

I am a kashmiri, but not by birth. I have not been to pakistan in over 10 years though, so i remember it as it was then, seems like a lot has changed.


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## k_n

PakistaniPacifist said:


> Kasheer Bolan tu? Fair amount of Kashmir is ethnic kasheer in Pakistan so please don't speak when you have no knowledge in the matter as for India apart from the Valley the rest comprimises heavily of non-ethnic Kashmiri communities and even Kasheer ppl there have problems with it as they try to assert Indian culture and language on them, words echoed by my own Kashmiri friends and family who reside their. Eastern muzaffarbad, Neelam Valley, Gilgit & Baltistan and parts of Hunza, Ishkoman and even Swat have very large communities of kasheer and you'll see people dressed in their own cultural attire.
> 
> Most Kashmiris on the Indian side feel Pakistani, i have met a decent amount of Kashmiri and most feel they have nothing in common with Indians infact many have shown a deep hatred for anything Indian. Some of my own family who are born in Srinigar in a place called Nowhatta love Pakistan with a passion but don't want to leave their ancestoral home and although they have a great resentment for India and Indians in general most love the muslims that reside in that country extremely passionately.
> 
> Kashmir Valley is always a part of our wataan and Pakistan is always a part of the Kashmiri Valley.



Mirpuris and Punchhis are what they are i.e Mirpuri and Punchhi NOT KASHMIRI .
The language , food , dress all are different , DIFFERENT . 
So dont claim what is not your heritage . Leave it for the Kashmris of the valley and Doda Kishtwar . 
The Kashmiri speaking migrants who have migrated to Pak during partition and later since the insurgency ( only a trickle ) can claim to be Kashmiri not the Mirpuris and Punchhis . Same can be said of the Kashmiri descendants of families who moved to Punjab during British Raj although they dont retain the language anymore and speak Punjabi . 
The people in Gilgit-Baltistan have different languages though they are more ethnically and linguistically closer to Kashmiris than Mirpuris and Punchhis !
Only Neelum Valley exactly oppposite Kupwara can be said to have people of Kashmiri extraction 

Yes KASHMIRIS have 'nothing' in common with different 'Indian' ethnicities just like there is nothing common between a Punjabi or Sindhi or Pashtun or Baloch with The Kashmiri !
Language , Cuisine , Dress , Customs NOTHING . Though a late Sindhi ex-foreign minister had claimed at UN that Kashmir is more a PART OF PAK than it can ever be a part of INDIA . 

Besides , Kashmiris have harboured seperatist tendencies since the partition is well known to you and us . Irrespective of what you claim , the moment Kashmiris step out of the valley in search of better oppurtunities , education , work they get to see and mix with 'Indians' . Plenty of them in Pune , Mumbai , Hyderabad and Delhi being treated as equal as ANY INDIAN WILL TREAT A FELLOW INDIAN .
The 'Indian' muslims have never had a soft corner for the Kashmiri seperatist tendencies neither they have any special sense of affinity towards the Kashmiri community so go and sell your peanuts elsewhere or come to Pune during september once the universities there begin with their Fall Semester and count the Kashmiri students living in absolute freedom with a dream of better future in India .

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## RobbieS

Frankenstein said:


> There were 40% kashmiris in my previous school, they always communicate withe each other in Kashmiri, dont know what your folks told u



I mentioned what they told me. And to your point, what seems Kashmiri to an outsider may not be pure kashmiri or be a mixture. Somebody like u and me (assuming you are a non-Kashmiri) wouldn't know the difference.


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## EjazR

*An unequal relationship
AJK and Pakistan&#8217;s security doctrine
ImtiazGul.Com*

*Recently, a former Musharraf aide admitted that incessant US pressure resulted in a scaling down of cross-border Jihadi operations and militants were told to refrain from violating the Line of Control because of unusual US satellite surveillance*

By Imtiaz Gul

Friday Times May 14, 2010

On May 10, RajaFarooq Haider Khan, Prime Minister Azad Jammu and Kashmir, wriggled out of his commitment to chair a seminar. The seminar was convened to discuss the veracity of the claims by the former foreign minister Khurshid Mehmood Kasuri in 2007, that by March 2007, a compromise on Kashmir was around the corner. Barrister A. Majid Tramboo, Kashmir Centre Brussels and Prof Nazeer Shaal were among the participants. Almost two dozen coordination phone calls and physical checks of the venue had preceded the event. At one stage Khan&#8217;s personal staff conveyed that the premier would be there within ten minutes. But those ten minutes turned into an eternity.

As it turned out later, the AJK Prime Minister skipped the event because Pakistan&#8217;s Chief Secretary for Kashmir &#8211; who is as dreaded by the Kashmir government as probably the COAS is by the armed forces &#8211; had showed up for a meeting.

This small anecdote explains the volatility of the independent state called AJK. This also sheds light on how Kashmiri leaders are at the mercy of the Pakistani authorities, illustrated by the government&#8217;s direct meddling in AJK&#8217;s recent judicial crisis.

Perhaps Raja Farooq Haider Khan may have been absent at the Kashmir seminar also because most of the participants attending the event, including representatives of different factions of the All Hurriyat Party Congress (APHC) as well as those from Kashmir Centre Brussels, are considered extensions of the national security establishment. Kashmir observers say that various Kashmir-related organizations based in various parts of Europe and North America liaise with the Pakistani authorities for guidance and coordination.

Did the AJK Prime Minister then attempt to stay away from a meeting packed with what he thought was a pro-establishment crowd? Probably not. Even premier Khan and his party &#8211; the Muslim Conference &#8211; had been an important element in Pakistan&#8217;s war for Kashmir, maintaining close contacts with the security establishment, as close as the links between the security establishment and some sixteen Kashmir-focused militant organizations that used to work under the United Jihad Council (UJC).

The relationship between the security establishment and the UJC permitted the UJC to maintain offices and camps not only in Kashmir but also elsewhere. Lashkar-e-Taiba was not part of the UJC, but it coordinated with the Council on matters of political policy. In fact, Washington and New Delhi claim Jamaat-ud-Dawa, the successor of the LeT that was banned on 12 January 2002, and Jaish-e-Mohammad act as the first line of defence for Pakistan&#8217;s security apparatus. Many US and British publications report that over 1500 religious seminaries and mosques are being run by these two Kashmir-focused organizations across Pakistan. Kashmir&#8217;s future &#8211; the fight for self-determination &#8211; provides these organizations with a cover that is hard to remove. These outfits illustrate the model of cost-effective militant activity for a specific purpose. This military-militant nexus peaked in the 1990s but has shrunk considerably after General Musharraf&#8217;s assurances to Richard Armitage, the US Secretary of State from 2001 to 2005, to ban the proliferation of militant camps.

Recently, a former Musharraf aide admitted that incessant US pressure resulted in a scaling down of cross-border Jihadi operations and militants were told to refrain from violating the Line of Control because of unusual US satellite surveillance. Yet the security establishment kept &#8220;managing&#8221; some of the groups because &#8220;they were human beings and could not be dumped overnight&#8221;.

Popular rhetoric and lobbying by Hafiz Saeed and Jamaat-ud-Dawa on Pakistan&#8217;s water and current trans-border issues, comes across more as a ploy that suits the hawks within Pakistan. This particularly appeases those who believe the Kashmir issue is related to water and not territory. Increasingly, the policy of using Jihadi outfits to implement this tactical approach &#8211; rooted in the desire to deliver a thousands cuts to India &#8211; has boomeranged and resulted in monumental strategic losses to Pakistan and bled it profusely. This warrants a total but gradual divorce from the establishment&#8217;s doctrine of a cost-effective way of holding India back.

This approach in the current international context and in view of Pakistan&#8217;s ever-growing economic problems has outlived its utility and has compounded political and economic problems for the country. The sooner the better, as international tolerance for such adventures is waning.

(The author heads the independent Centre for Research and Security Studies, Islamabad.)

Email: imtiaz@crss.pk


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## Pride

Azad Kashmir said:


> Not really, I support a pleblisticite in Kashmir currently (Under UN observation) but that will not happen. And we cannot stand by and let atrocities happen so we resist and then when we have resisted pleblicite should be held with all options including free kashmir.



You want UN plebiscite... good.. I am ready but before that few questions for you:-

1) Do you want Gilgit-Baltistan area into this? Pakistan consider this is their state while maps of 1947 shows part of J&K and were under rule of Raja Hari Singh.

2) Do you want to include or exclude people who have migrated to respective side of Kashmir? India is having specific articles so other state's people can't buy land there while there is no such rule from Pak side hence many punjabis are there in their side.

3) What about Kashmiri Pundits who are forced to migrate to other states of India. Do you want to call them for plebiscite?

4) Will you consider J&K Sikhs, Pandits, Lamas (from Laddakh area) or just Kashmiri Muslims (I hear only this word in this forum)?

5) Are you going to ask UN to intervene and ask China to release captured area of J&K (and gifted area by Pak to China in Karakoram range) so we can have plebiscite there as well?

If you are ready for same.. I am ready as well...

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## bc040400065

ambidex said:


> Democratic thinking is to keep nation intact not punched out. Although I strongly oppose any anti Pakistan movement in Baluchistan. But I would like to know if you can say same about them, just in case.
> 
> I have read his previous posts as well so don't try to tell me that I am mucking around here like a headless chicken.
> I am not forcing I am telling the truth.Time may have made AJK Kashmiris more near to Pakistan but being an Indian i have all the right to keep the ball at your court, you know what i mean? (I am an honest man).
> 
> There is a contradictions with his statement and poor understanding of the deep seated dispute. AJK is Pakistani invention and he has no cure but to endure that without a flag and identity. What i am giving him back is his lost a real identity of an Indian.
> 
> Furthermore what will happen when this issue will be resolved and his dependency on both of the nations is what I am trying to mention.
> Regards.



why the hell he should be indian or accept india as his beloved homeland??? just because you want it to be like that.... please you are indian so you have the right to defend your country but you have no right to force someone to accept whats your belief is... If kashmiris love pakistan and want to be with pakistan then IF india beleives in democratic and human rights , India should let them live their lifes according to their wishes....


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## dabong1

Pride said:


> You want UN plebiscite... good.. I am ready but before that few questions for you:-
> 
> 1) Do you want Gilgit-Baltistan area into this? Pakistan consider this is their state while maps of 1947 shows part of J&K and were under rule of Raja Hari Singh.



Well what ever the UN say thats what we will do.....if that includes having a vote in Gilgit-Baltistan,then yes.



Pride said:


> 2) Do you want to include or exclude people who have migrated to respective side of Kashmir? India is having specific articles so other state's people can't buy land there while there is no such rule from Pak side hence many punjabis are there in their side.



This point must have been answered a thousand times........We have the same rules in AJK,no non kashmiri can buy land there or become a citizen.So this fantasy that you indians keep pulling out that AJK is flooded with punjabis and that they are taking over is nothing more then a massive lie.
Bring every kashmiri refugee back including all those in pakistan and india and let them vote......we have no problem with that.





Pride said:


> 3) What about Kashmiri Pundits who are forced to migrate to other states of India. Do you want to call them for plebiscite?



Yes!.......and we also want the kashmiri muslims who where forced out of kashmir also to be involved in the plebiscite.



Pride said:


> 4) Will you consider J&K Sikhs, Pandits, Lamas (from Laddakh area) or just Kashmiri Muslims (I hear only this word in this forum)?



When has anybody said they want only muslims to be involved in the plebiscite?.......All kashmiris,sikhs,hindus ect will be involved in the vote.
I dont why you indians keep thinking we want no non muslims to be involved in the kashmir vote.



Pride said:


> 5) Are you going to ask UN to intervene and ask China to release captured area of J&K (and gifted area by Pak to China in Karakoram range) so we can have plebiscite there as well?



No problem......just as long you indians dont mind the chinese being involved also then in the kashmir dispute and having a say on the outcome.......PS under the agreement with china they gifted a larger part of kashmir to us and not the other way round.



Pride said:


> If you are ready for same.. I am ready as well...



Well all your questions have been answered and the indian media myths broken that pakistan only wants the kashmiris muslims to be involved.

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## dabong1

username said:


> I am shocked at you call it a tour, you can see that most of the time when I say terrorists I do put in brackets that you call them freedom fighters. I wish you could be as civil as I am.



I apologise if you think i am not being civil.......i dont mind if you dont bracket terrorist becauce thats what i expect you to call the freedom fighters......terrorist-jihadis-militants-rebels-ultras ect.
Just as long we dont start insulting name calling.
I might not like it when you call the freedom fighters a terrrorist but i accept it.




username said:


> Atleast do not call it as tours, atleast not when you are replying to an Indian.



What do you want me to call it....a mission?




username said:


> The way their family is taken care is not mentioned by Pakistan at all. Did they get awards, quotas by your government, pension for the family etc...



Pakistan does not say in public that it supports the freedom fighters so why are they going publish awards and quotas?
I dont know about medals but money-food ect is given.
The freedom fighters that were told to stop the fight during musharaffs term where all given jobs in the road construction companies in AJK.
My cousin was a guide to the freedom fighters who stopped all activity during mushy term is given a pension-money every month by his tanzeem.
My childhood friend was martyred in kashmir and he has a road named after him and his family is given food every month by his tanzeem.
These are just personal examples........all support goes through the army into the tanzeems who then carry out the activity.

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## dabong1

Mirpuris are not kashmiris

Do you guys know how many kashmiris refugees live in mirpur?


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## username

dabong1 said:


> I apologise if you think i am not being civil.......i dont mind if you dont bracket terrorist becauce thats what i expect you to call the freedom fighters......terrorist-jihadis-militants-rebels-ultras ect.
> Just as long we dont start insulting name calling.
> I might not like it when you call the freedom fighters a terrrorist but i accept it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you want me to call it....a mission?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan does not say in public that it supports the freedom fighters so why are they going publish awards and quotas?
> I dont know about medals but money-food ect is given.
> *The freedom fighters that were told to stop the fight during musharaffs term where all given jobs in the road construction companies in AJK.*
> My cousin was a guide to the freedom fighters who stopped all activity during mushy term is given a pension-money every month by his tanzeem.
> My childhood friend was martyred in kashmir and he has a road named after him and his family is given food every month by his tanzeem.
> These are just personal examples........all support goes through the army into the tanzeems who then carry out the activity.



Okay fine... mainly I wanted to know the point of view of a person from Pakistan, without bringing in reason for war/conflict etc... I don't assert for source anymore... 

I only wish the bolded part happens always... And if there was a situation because of which the insurgents or the so called freedom fighters were told to do some productive work, then let us hope that the same situation comes back forever... 

And nobody from eiether side has to die and no development has to stop in eiether side of Kashmir... (because continuing this as far I see there will be no results at all (our side of Kashmir being with us, and your side of Kashmir being with you), our side sits a huge trained army and your side is sending some very less number of proxies, and this will continue forever if this is let to happen as it is now)... 


it was a good discussion with you thanks...


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## DESERT FIGHTER

honour said:


> Love to go....u are certainly welcome......come and join them....dont just blast in front of PC.....



Sure...i will or maybe join army or rangers? all depends the main aims is only one...


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## honour

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Sure...i will or maybe join army or rangers? all depends the main aims is only one...



oh you wanted to be a freedom fighter....a mujahid in kashmir for "Jihad".......but now rangers or *Army*
seems like you want to fight in swat......

OR other point of view is that you just confirmed that PAK army is directly involved in sending/disguising as terrorists.....I claim India is making for last 50 years......

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## k_n

dabong1 said:


> Mirpuris are not kashmiris
> 
> Do you guys know how many kashmiris refugees live in mirpur?



Do you know how many Punchhi and Kashmiri refugees live in Jammu


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## Pride

dabong1 said:


> Well what ever the UN say thats what we will do.....if that includes having a vote in Gilgit-Baltistan,then yes.



Sir you might want the same but will Pakistan be ready for the same. Just to give you reference AJK map is not having G-B area which Pak consider their states.
Azad Kashmir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> This point must have been answered a thousand times........We have the same rules in AJK,no non kashmiri can buy land there or become a citizen.So this fantasy that you indians keep pulling out that AJK is flooded with punjabis and that they are taking over is nothing more then a massive lie.



Sir thanks for clearing it thousand one time but did you ever notice ethinc group of AJK. I found Kashmiris were in minority and their min language was Urdu (Not Dongri ??) and major ethnic groups were Jaat, Gujjars, Rajputs and Punjabis etc. Please have reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_of_Azad_Kashmir



> Bring every kashmiri refugee back including all those in pakistan and india and let them vote......we have no problem with that.



So are you going to have vote on the basis of pre-1948 or on current basis. You personally may not have problem but yes Pakistan do have as most of the people may have to leave Mirpur/Muzzafarabad territory.




> Yes!.......and we also want the kashmiri muslims who where forced out of kashmir also to be involved in the plebiscite.



Well, I always hear Kashmiri Muslims were killed by Indian Army they were never forced after all according to you guys No Kashmiri wants to stay in any other state of India. 



> When has anybody said they want only muslims to be involved in the plebiscite?.......All kashmiris,sikhs,hindus ect will be involved in the vote.



Only some part of Srinagar area have resistance (which is Muslim dominated area) and Pakistani freedom fighters because of "Ummah" come here. This is the reason Paskistan talk about only Kashmiri Muslims. Have you ever got any editorial for Kashmiri Sikhs or Pandits in Pakistani new paper.



> I dont why you indians keep thinking we want no non muslims to be involved in the kashmir vote.



Because your freedom fighters came in 80s and forced Kashmiri Pandits out of J&K territory. And most of the time these so called freedom fighters are involved in ethnic cleansing of Hindus/Sikhs. Remember when Bill Clinton came to India 28 Sikhs in J&K have been killed.



> No problem......just as long you indians dont mind the chinese being involved also then in the kashmir dispute and having a say on the outcome.......PS under the agreement with china they gifted a larger part of kashmir to us and not the other way round.



I have No issues to involve China or anyone in this matter. I don't talk on behalf of India. I am talking for the favor of J&K people and if that is their land then whomsoever they are they have to be included. And please let me know which part of Kashmir China gifted you. Everyone knows that you gifted them a big part of Karakoram pass and part of Kashmir which is part of Uigyhur. 



> Well all your questions have been answered and the indian media myths broken that pakistan only wants the kashmiris muslims to be involved.



Sir from above points this is clearly mentioned stance of India and most important J&K people. Myths were created by you guys named AJK and for you Kashmir is only Muslim area that is why in 1948 Pakistan has attacked the same.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

honour said:


> oh you wanted to be a freedom fighter....a mujahid in kashmir for "Jihad".......but now rangers or *Army*
> seems like you want to fight in swat......



I dont know wat disease u guys have tht u cant comprehend anything?



> OR other point of view is that *you just confirmed that PAK army is directly involved in sending/disguising as terrorists*.....I claim India is making for last 50 years......



First Son its Mujahedeen ........Terrorists are the indian terrorist forces occupying Kashmir...
About sending them into indian occupied Kashmir...........we arent indians with the pathetic proxy mindset be it 71,sindhu desh,TTP and now BLA.
If u go around confirming news on my words.....do confirm my words reguarding attrocities , massacres , proxy and other low life activities of indian state against its bordering countries.


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## KS

dabong1 said:


> No problem......just as long you indians dont mind the chinese being involved also then in the kashmir dispute and having a say on the outcome.......PS under the agreement with china they gifted a larger part of kashmir to us and not the other way round.



No....*India minds China being a part of the issue.*
China has *no locus-standi* on this issue other than being gifted some part of Kashmir by Pakistan.They were not the original disputants.

By this logic if tomorrow India gifts some piece of land to Russia and then argue since Russians also own a part they r also a party to the dispute ..will u guys buy that argument..?

*NO * i guess...so similarly the role of China is to simply return that land and let India-Pakistan solve the dispute.


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## contender

*Kashmir conflict 'unfinished business' *


Most of the militant groups have turned away from violence but clashes continue

The Kashmir insurgency - one of the world's longest-running conflicts - began 20 years ago this week. And it was the shockwave from the fall of the Berlin Wall that gave young Kashmiris the confidence to take on the Indian state, the BBC's David Loyn says.

Simmering discontent over this unfinished business left over from the partition of India in 1947 turned into a full-scale insurgency after the kidnap of Rubiya Sayeed, the daughter of the Indian home minister, on 8 December 1989. 

She was released a few days later in exchange for five militants held in an Indian jail. 

A police crackdown on victory celebrations was the spark that lit the fuse of the conflict. 

One of the militants who took up the gun that week, Mukhtar Baba, said that he and his friends had the confidence to take on India because of events in Europe. 

"The German people stood up against that man-made Berlin wall, so we thought why don't we, and we started that armed struggle here," he says. 

The then chief minister of Indian-administered Kashmir, Farooq Abdullah, says he saw the trouble coming. 

It is not a battle between Kashmiri independence and India, but between the secular forces of India and the fundamentalist forces which are wanting to get hold of the Kashmir valley 

Afsar Karim
Retired Indian general 
"It was not only the Berlin Wall, I think the main thing was the Russian defeat in Afghanistan. They felt if a power like Russia can be thrown out, why not India," he says. 

He addressed a packed public meeting to try to warn Kashmiris of what was to come. 

"I told them, 'what you are doing is wrong. It will not lead you to any place other than the destruction of our state; our houses will go; our villages will be blown up; innocent people will die; many of our womenfolk will be raped and murdered'," Mr Abdullah says. 

Differing goals

Twenty years on, there are no reliable estimates of the number of people killed, but it is generally believed to be upwards of 50,000. 







The Kashmiri-based International People's Tribunal on Human Rights has recently called for a thorough investigation of mass graves of bodies buried by Indian security forces. 

The Indian government has rejected the findings, but the head of the research group, Khurram Parvez, says that much still has to be revealed. He has estimated that one in 10 people living in the Kashmir valley has been tortured. 

From the beginning there were differing goals for those who took up the gun. 

Some wanted Pakistan to take over all of the original state of Kashmir, but most wanted unification of the two wings of the original state in a separate new independent country. 

Global jihad

As the insurgency ground on, from the mid-1990s the Indian state faced a new threat. Among the Kashmiri youths coming across the Line of Control after training on the Pakistani side were battle-hardened Islamist warriors who had come to fight a jihad. They were Arabs, Afghans and Pakistanis. 

I met some in Indian custody in 1994, including the alleged military commander of a new guerrilla group - the Harkat ul-Ansar. His name was Sajjad Afghani - (Sajjad "the Afghan"), and he proved to have a very limited political agenda. 

He was fighting not for Pakistani control of Kashmir but for a global jihad. 

We did not know it then, but this kind of thinking was about to take centre stage in world politics. 

So while the fighting in Indian-administered Kashmir may have been inspired by the end of the Cold War, it provides a direct link with the new conflicts of the 21st Century. 

Big change

Pakistan's repeated and strong denials that they backed militant training camps were rejected by the incoming administration of US President Bill Clinton in 1993, who demanded that the camps should close, threatening to put Pakistan on the list of "state sponsors of international terrorism". 


The Dukhtaran-e-Millat advocates a more rigorous lifestyle for women

Conveniently enough, the chaos of the civil war in Afghanistan meant that the camps should be shifted there, and when Osama Bin Laden reappeared in the region in 1996 he was given control of some of this training. 

Retired Gen Afsar Karim, one of India's leading defence analysts, says that this development was the most threatening aspect of the Kashmir conflict. 

"It is not a battle between Kashmiri independence and India, but between the secular forces of India and the fundamentalist forces which are wanting to get hold of the Kashmir valley." 

The war has seen a big change in Kashmiri society. There is a new seriousness of intent in Islamic practice here in a place once famous for more tolerant liberal ways. 

A women's movement, the Dukhtaran-e-Millat (Daughters of the Faith), holds classes to try to change the ways of Kashmiri women to a more rigorous lifestyle including covering every part of their body. 

Their fundamentalist world view includes a demand for Pakistan to control all of Kashmir. They also believe that 9/11 was an attack carried out by America on itself. 

One of their leading members Naheeda Nasreem, dressed all in black, including black gloves, says: "Is there any proof it was done by any Muslim? We think it might have been done by them. The Taliban and other forces are working at the behest of America and Israel. Why are the Taliban terrorising Pakistan? This is only on at the behest of America. They sent some people dressed as Muslims." 

'Sky's limit'

Most of the original militant groups have turned away from violence. They are waiting for the result of a peace process that has been called "quiet diplomacy" backed by US President Barack Obama. 





Yasin Malik warns there could be "another revolution"

Both Pakistan and India now appear ready to compromise. On a recent trip to Srinagar, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh told a secessionist politician that - apart from the border itself - anything could be negotiated. 

"The sky's the limit," he said. 

There is some impatience for progress, and the Chairman of the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front, Yasin Malik, warns that if there is no progress, then it will be hard to stop young Kashmiris from returning to violence. 

He has tried to lead a path of non-violent resistance, but knows of the impatience of Kashmiris for a settlement. 

"For God's sake, don't give our next generation a sense of defeat. If you are giving them a sense of defeat you are pushing them for another revolution," Yasin Malik says. 

BBC News - Kashmir conflict 'unfinished business'


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## EjazR

This article was published in 1995 and gives a view of how the local Kashmiris had themselves taken up arms against the terrorists groups like Hizb and other so called Jihadi groups. I wanted to give people an idea of how atrocities of these same groups (which some Pakistanis misguidedly think have a strong support base among local Kashmiris) have committed widespread atrocities that are now being seen in Pakistan itself.

--------------
*www.outlookindia.com | Carving Up The Valley*
_Renegade militant groups declare war on the Hizbul Mujahideen and Jamaat-i-Islami_

THE car suddenly screeches to a halt. Before I realise what's happening, I find myself staring into the barrel of a Kalashnikov, less than a foot away from my head. "Jamaati Cho ?" The two-word question is flung at me. There is a quick flurry in Kashmiri from my companion, a local journalist. The man holding the gun, probably in his early 30s and clad casually in a rust-coloured pherun, takes a hard look at me and then slowly recedes into the alley from where he had emerged.

"I didn't know these people had become active in this area also," remarks my companion as we move on. The gunman belongs to Ikhwan-ul-Muslimoo a militant group led by Jamshed Shirazi, better known as Kukka Parray. The group has declared that its primary task is to 'cleanse' the Valley of all Jamaatis and militants belonging to the Hizbul Mujahideen.

'That Kukka Parray's men have become active in areas near Traal, traditional Hizbul strongholds, is indication enough that the man means business.

The following day we set off in search of him to Hajin in Bandipora where he is frequently based. But before that we run into Ansar-ul Haq, deputy supreme of the Ikhwan-ul-Muslimoon. Ansarul travels in a convoy of Maruti cars, Kalashnikov barrels sticking out of the windows. After some close questioning, he agrees to take us to see Kukka Parray the next day.

As we follow Ansarul's car through the busy market area of Hajin, it becomes obvious that Parray's men enjoy a great rapport with the people. Ansarul and his men throughout exchange greetings with the people as their vehicles meander through the throng of shoppers. Later I am told they have earned this respect due to the relief they provided during the recent floods.

At Halin, we meet Parray, a man who is confident of driving both the Jamaatis and the Hizbul Mujahideen militants away from the Valley. "They have committed great excesses against innocent Kashmiris. We have to eliminate them," he says, puffing on his hookah and surrounded by armed gunmen. He also claims to be fighting for azadi like the JKLF. What about the charge that he has been propped up by Indian security agencies? "Jamaati propaganda," he says dismissively.

His organisation (estimated strength:500 gunmen) has met with considerable success, at least in the Bandipora areas. Once known as a major stronghold of the Hizbul Mujahideen, they are now under the complete sway of Kukka Parray who is said to have further extended his influence to the outlying areas of Srinagar like Rainabari and Gaindarbal.

Indeed, the Valley is now in the grip of a new phenomenon where militants are pitched against militants. Far away in Anantnag in south Kashmir, a group led by Naba Azad is targeting Hizbul militants. It is styled the Muslim Mujahideen as is Sarir Khan's group in the Kandi Sopore belt. Besides, there is Chaudhuri Jalaluddin's organisation, known as the Militant Khilafat Army (earlier the Muslim Liberation Army), working in the Gujjar dominated border area of Kupwara. It is also just a matter of time before the break-away group of the JKLF, led by Shabir Sidiqqi and Basharat Raza and currently holding the Hazratbal shrine, focuses its guns on its former comrades.

Hurriyat leader Syed Shah Geelani and IKLF chief Yasin Malik are certain these groups are receiving help from the security forces. But others like Shabir Shah and Azam Inqlabi, veteran leader of Mahaz-e-Azadi, view the phenomenon differently. Inqlabi attributes the emergence of people like Kukka Parray to Newton's third law of motion: every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Excesses by militants, he says, had to spark off some kind of reaction. And Shabir Shah admits that such excesses were committed by "some militant tanzeems". He says he has personally apologised for all such incidents and issued an appeal to all rebel groups to come back into the fold of the mainstream movement.

Shah admits that three years ago it would have been impossible for the security agencies to locate even 50 Kashmiri gunmen willing to fight other militants Involved in the movement. Now the renegades are exploiting the people's suppressed anger at the excesses committed by the militants.

Gun battles between militant organisations are not new in Kashmir. Such group clashes, particularly between the pro-Pakistan Hizbul Mujahideen and the pro -independence JKLF were routine occurrences during 1990-91. But they had eased considerably in the last couple of years only to start recurring in a big way. This year alone, a total of 116 group clashes resulting in the death of 127 militants, had been reported till the end of August.

For government officials, there could be nothing better than this turn in events. While they hotly deny charges of connivance with the renegades, they can't stop smiling. "Oh, they are definitely making our jobs easy. We have no reason to complain," says a senior official in Srinagar.

What he probably doesn't realise is that these gunmen could become as uncontrollable as the others in the longer run and the whole situation may well develop into a civil war of sorts. That, however, doesn't worry the officials. that Their attitude is: "We will cross bridge when we come to it. For the moment, our battle is against the secessionists."

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## TATA

because they are not representative of kashmiri people and just want terrorism while kashmiri people suffers.

they don't want kashmir as progressing and developing because it is against their interests

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## hal-fgfa

if pakistan claim that they can make kashmiries happy ...so so far what they done for those who lived in Pakistan occupied kashmir .. 


*they dont even have right to choose government for their own 
(now if u claim that they choos their government so that is only dummy government with no right ... if any one proof me wrong so please)*


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## RobbieS

> What he probably doesn't realise is that these gunmen could become as uncontrollable as the others in the longer run and the whole situation may well develop into a civil war of sorts. That, however, doesn't worry the officials. that Their attitude is: "We will cross bridge when we come to it. For the moment, our battle is against the secessionists."



That to me is the most important piece of the article. I am sure the Ikhwanis and others recieve some sort of help and tacit support even if it is as little as not carrying out raids and COIN ops in their areas. How do the govt. agencies view the matter? Do they have a plan in place for easing out these militias once the Hizbul and other pro-Pak groups are wiped out? After all we cant have private groups of militias roaming around the valley.


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## EjazR

*www.outlookindia.com | A House Divided*
Oct 03, 2005

In April 2005, the Hizb-ul-Mujahideen's (HM's) Beerwah-area 'district commander' Yusuf Sheikh had mailed a letter to police officials in Srinagar. It contained a photograph of the severed head of Farooq Ahmad, an agent infiltrated into the organisation six months earlier; the head itself was tossed in the dirt near a city bus station soon after. In Sheikh's own case, the defiant gesture proved misguided - he was targeted for attention and shot dead inside of six weeks - but the action did reflect the rise of a certain arrogant &#233;lan in the HM: a sign that it had begun to recover from the decimation of its senior field command in 2003-2004.

Now, as details emerge on the operation that led to the September 29, 2005, elimination of Ibrahim Dar, the HM's Srinagar-area 'district commander', something of a picture is starting to emerge of just what is going on inside the numerically largest terrorist group operating in Jammu and Kashmir (J&K).

While Dar occupied a relatively low administrative role, his visibility in recent months had far exceeded that of his organisational superiors. *The architect of an alliance between HM and Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) cadre in Srinagar, Dar had organised a series of high-profile car bombings and suicide-squad (fidayeen) attacks in recent months. Starting with a March 23 explosion in the Sanat Nagar suburb, intended to demonstrate the HM's possession of capabilities for derailing the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad bus service, Dar's terrorist cell went on to execute attacks on the city's Passport Office, Deputy Commissioner's Office and a military convoy passing by the well-known Burnhall School. Most of these attacks, departing from traditional HM practice, used bombs manufactured from commercially-available chemicals, rather than military-grade explosives like RDX.*

Investigators were intrigued by this change in course, since Dar's earlier terror enterprises had focussed on assassinations, not bombings. Having joined the HM in the early 1990s, after abandoning his efforts to obtain a Bachelor of Sciences degree, Dar was arrested for a 1996 murder. While in prison, he acquired for a mentor the senior HM 'commander', Hashim Javed Iqbal. Both obtained bail after six years. *Under Iqbal's tutelage, Dar then allied with Srinagar-based elements of the LeT and al-Umar to form the Save Kashmir Movement (SKM). An assassination-focussed organisation, the SKM killed several National Conference cadre involved in the 2002 elections to the State Assembly. Soon after, in March 2003, it eliminated the dissident HM 'commander', Abdul Majid Dar, who had initiated talks with the Government of India. The SKM carried out further attacks in 2004, including the assassinations of Deputy Inspector-General of Police Mohammad Amin Bhat and Maulvi Mushtaq Ahmad, the uncle of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) leader, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq. Dar also targeted politicians who fought the February 2005 elections to the Srinagar Municipal Corporation.*

In parallel with these precision killings, Dar tasked allied organisations with executing larger actions of symbolic value, using fidayeen groups. Loose affiliations seem to have first been forged with the Jaish-e-Mohammad (JEM) for this purpose, although they tapered off because of the JeM's internal crisis, ending finally with the 2003 elimination of its field amir, or 'supreme commander', Shahbaz Khan. By that year, however, the alliance with the LeT was well entrenched. It survived the arrest that year of three of Dar's closest allies in that organisation, Feroze Ahmad Sheikh, Altaf Mir and Shamimullah Khan. One reason for this was that Dar himself escaped. With not a little ingenuity and effort, he succeeded in protecting his Srinagar networks both from local attrition and the elimination of successive overall chiefs of the HM. Indeed, by 2004, the Lashkar-Hizb combine was considering a large scale operation targeting the Bombay Stock Exchange, which, however, was comprised by its penetration by Indian communications intelligence. Twenty three members of Dar's network, including his mentor Iqbal, were arrested.

For much of 2004, terrorist groups in Srinagar appeared to be in retreat: bar fidayeen actions, rich in symbolic value but of little practical effect, they appeared to be able to do nothing. Indeed, after the May 2004, elimination of the HM's 'supreme commander' for the Kashmir Valley, Abdul Rashid Pir, the organisation even seemed unable to find a successor to take his job. In the midst of this chaos, however, Dar managed to keep going. His recent activities had, for obvious reasons, given the security establishment in Srinagar substantial cause for concern, especially since considerable care was being taken to avoid communications intelligence penetration of the kind which had led to the destruction of the Bombay Stock Exchange cell. Aware, for example, that Indian intelligence had penetrated their cellphone networks, members of the cell had generally taken to communicating through couriers. Where talking was necessary, they frequently changed instruments and SIM cards, turned on their phones only for brief periods at pre-decided times and used codes to make their conversations seem innocuous.

Much of the intelligence generated during the J&K Police's operation targeting Dar has affirmed long-standing speculation about serious internal problems within the HM. *Its recent emphasis on car-bomb attacks seems to have been the consequence of a shortage of weapons and cadre, the result of declining support from Pakistan and improved anti-infiltration measures. As a result of these pressures, some field cadre of the HM were eager to open lines of communication with New Delhi. Equal numbers, however, believed that a dialogue would principally benefit politicians of the APHC rather than the armed group and its cadre. Interestingly, the Muzaffarabad-based central organisation of the HM seems afraid of the consequences of freewheeling negotiation - one reason it has not appointed an overall commander for the Kashmir Valley since the elimination of Pir. HM commanders within Kashmir have, for some time, been stopped from communicating with the media, that task being solely handled by its Pakistan-based supreme leadership, reflecting an increasing paucity of trust and fears that field commanders may be increasingly inclined to seek a dialogue with New Delhi.*

What does the elimination of Dar mean for the future of the HM's bombing offensive? While it will undoubtedly hurt the organisation, it is unlikely that Dar's killing will in itself bring an end to this campaign. For one, Dar's superior - the Srinagar 'division commander', so far known only by the alias 'Jehangir' - remains alive. Dar's resourceful and tough south Kashmir counterpart, Sohail Faisal, also continues to operate. More worrying, from the point of view of Forces operating in J&K, is the fact that Srinagar's urban terror cells seem to be increasingly sensitive to the capabilities and limitations of Indian communications intelligence. India will, most likely, have to upgrade its communications intelligence infrastructure significantly in years to come, notably the ability of forces operating in J&K to monitor encrypted internet traffic and hand-held satellite phone conversations. Most important, though, the abiding lesson of the hunt for Dar ought to be that the carefully-built human intelligence networks that have worked with great success in J&K ought not to be allowed to wither away in the fond hope that peace is just around the corner.

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## EjazR

RobbieS said:


> That to me is the most important piece of the article. I am sure the Ikhwanis and others recieve some sort of help and tacit support even if it is as little as not carrying out raids and COIN ops in their areas. How do the govt. agencies view the matter? Do they have a plan in place for easing out these militias once the Hizbul and other pro-Pak groups are wiped out? After all we cant have private groups of militias roaming around the valley.



Ikhwanis don't exist as they did in 1995. At present, many have been vetted and inducted into the J&K police. Some of them have been given training and inducted into the Special Ops Group or SOG of the J&K police. 
There are also Village Defence Committees, loosely aligned with villagers and the local police. So the perception that private militias still exist would be wrong.


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## foxbat

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> I dont know wat disease u guys have tht u cant comprehend anything?
> 
> 
> 
> First Son its Mujahedeen ........Terrorists are the indian terrorist forces occupying Kashmir...



Mujahedeen.. Hmmm.. similar to the ones your army is now fighting for last so many months in NWFP, SWAT etc?? Didnt you call them mujahedeen when u were funding and training them for Afghanistan. 

And I know you will come back with TTP is not the same outfit that fought soviets yada yada...

But hey... a rose with any other name ...???


In the end you will have the same situation in Punjab (Pakistani) as you have in NWFP today, if the same policies of sending these so called freedom fighters (actually terrorists) into India continues..

I hope better sense prevails in Pakistani govt.


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## Skeptic

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> A cousin of mine went for Kashmir Jihad 8 years back when he was 20..
> Love to go myself..
> U never know.
> TILL LASY DROP OF BLOOD.....WE WILL NEVER FORGET KASHMIR.
> PAKISTAN ZINDABAD
> FREE KASHMIR
> MUJAHIDEEN PAINDABAD.



During the same time these also happened. Who knows which of the Mujahiddins were part of it. Can you check from your cousin. I think he will try to shift blame on some others, but again what else are conspiracy theories for.

1998 Wandhama massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gunmen Kill 25 Hindus in Kashmir Attacks - NYTimes.com
2003 Nadimarg Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Prometheus

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> I dont know wat disease u guys have tht u cant comprehend anything?
> 
> 
> 
> First Son its Mujahedeen ........Terrorists are the indian terrorist forces occupying Kashmir...
> About sending them into indian occupied Kashmir...........we arent indians with the pathetic proxy mindset be it 71,sindhu desh,TTP and now BLA.
> If u go around confirming news on my words.....do confirm my words reguarding attrocities , massacres , proxy and other low life activities of indian state against its bordering countries.



bro............you forgot to say 65 and 99.........and many small scales like 2008 mumbai


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## Prometheus

*Infiltration bid foiled in J&K, 2 militants killed*

Srinagar: The Army on Wednesday killed two infiltrating militants in Kupwara district this morning. 

A group of heavily-armed militants tried to sneak into the Indian side at Tangdhar, 140 kms from here, a Defence spokesman said. 

On noticing their movement, troops challenged them and in the subsequent encounter, two militants were killed. 

The encounter was continuing when last reports came in.Infiltration bid foiled in J&K, two militants killed

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## DesiGuy

A survey which a British academic says is the first systematic attempt to establish the opinions of Kashmiris has produced "striking results".

Robert Bradnock interviewed more than 3,700 people in Indian- and Pakistani-administered Kashmir to assess their views on various issues.

One of the key questions put to respondents was how they saw the future of the territory.

*Nearly half of those interviewed said they wanted independence.*

Another question asked for their views over the continuing insurgency.

Dr Bradnock - an associate fellow at the Chatham House think-tank in London - says that the survey has produced startling conclusions, especially in relation to the future of the territory.
No 'simple fixes'

It revealed that *on average 44% of people in Pakistani-administered Kashmir favoured independence, compared with 43% in Indian-administered Kashmir.*

"However while this is the most popular option overall, it fails to carry an overall majority on either side.

"In fact on the Indian side of the Line of Control [LoC] - which separates the two regions - opinions are heavily polarised," Dr Bradnock told the BBC.
Journalists take cover during a clash in Srinagar (file photo) The Kashmir insurgency has raged for 20 years

The survey found that the "overwhelming majority" of people want a solution to the dispute, even though there are no "simple fixes".

Dr Bradnock said that in the Kashmir valley - the mainly Muslim area at the centre of the insurgency - support for independence is between 74% and 95%.

But in the predominantly Hindu Jammu division to the south, support is under 1%.

Other findings include:

* 80% of Kashmiris on both sides of the LoC say that the dispute is important to them personally
* Concern over human rights abuses stands at 43% on the Indian side and 19% on the Pakistani side
* Concern over unemployment is strong across the territory - 66% on the Pakistani side and 87% on the Indian side
* Few are optimistic over peace talks - only 27% on the Pakistani side and 57% on the Indian side thought they would succeed.

Dr Bradnock said that it was "clear" that a plebiscite on the future of Kashmir - along the lines envisaged in UN resolutions of 1948-49 - is "extremely unlikely to offer a solution today".

"The results of the polls show that that there is no single proposition for the future of Kashmir which could be put to the population... and get majority support," he said.

"The poll offers no simple fixes but offers signposts - through which the political process, engaging India, Pakistan and wider Kashmiri representation - could move it towards resolution." 


BBC News - 'First' Kashmir survey produces 'startling' results

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## Patriot

> * Concern over human rights abuses stands at 43&#37; on the Indian side and 19% on the Pakistani side
> * Concern over unemployment is strong across the territory - 66% on the Pakistani side and 87% on the Indian side
> * Few are optimistic over peace talks - only 27% on the Pakistani side and 57% on the Indian side thought they would succeed.


Interesting...As far as independence goes..Pakistanis clearly support Kashmiris will...if they want to independent state then Pakistanis will support them regardless of Official Pakistani GOP Stance.Independent Kashmir will of course have a lot of Pakistan's Influence and that territory will act as a buffer between India and Pakistan.I far one support establishment of new Kashmir state comprising of both AJK and J&K.

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## Hammy007

indeed a startling result. i doubt about this survey, as how can a peaceful pakistani kashmir which is free from all raids, army abuses can be related to indian kashmir, where violance is the norm.

which further going into justifications, indeed the 43&#37; of indian kashmir demanding independence is startling too, kashmir which remains devoid of all human rights, where violance in the norm can demand less independence than pakistani kashmir.

as far as i know, there should be definite reasons, and as the survey shows, the disadvantages on the indian side, than how can the survey be favourable to indians???

as far as i know, the biggest problem for kashmiris is the official pakistani stance, first, they are frustrated about GoP for starting "negotiations" with the enemy over a serious dispute, and musharrafs wrong policy to "soften" pakistani stance on kashmir.

second thing is the present status of kashmir, where as kashmiris want to integrate into pakistan and its government, they still have their own government and they cannot utilize benefits for being pakistani, pakistani stance is to not declare kashmir as its part as long as their is to be a solution for kashmir dispute.

but still 44% is an exaggerated figure and i cannot in anyway trust these whites(american/brits) at all in the first place..


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## EjazR

This is not the "first survey" ofcourse. But the first survey AFTER the Mumbai attacks.
And the results are startling only for people who have not been following the on ground situation for the last 15 years and still think its 1992 which was when the situation was at its worst in J&K.

A few points to be noted here:
* www.peacepolls.org conducted a survey in 2007-2008 on both sides of Kashmir. The results were quite similar for those who have gone through the survey results.
* Just like the www.peacepolls.org survey, this survey also DOES NOT include the people of Gilgit Baltistan which by all accounts is part of the historical Jammu and Kashmir state. The surveys are not full reflective until the people of Gilgit Baltistan voice their views as well.
* The survey was commissioned by Gaddahafi's son from Libya - Saif-ul-Islam Qaddafi
* UN resolutions require the choice to be limited to only India or Pakistan. If the Independence option (which did not get a majority btw-44&#37 is ignored, the overall majority is in favor of India(21%) rather than Pakistan(15%), although the results are heavily polarized regionally.

The full report is here
*Kashmir: Paths to peace*

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Hammy007 said:


> which further going into justifications, indeed the 43% of indian kashmir demanding independence is startling too, kashmir which remains devoid of all human rights, where violance in the norm can demand less independence than pakistani kashmir.
> 
> as far as i know, there should be definite reasons, and as the survey shows, the disadvantages on the indian side, than how can the survey be favourable to indians???


The overall percentage of people in favor of Independence in IaK is skewed by the results from outside Kashmir proper, where support for independence is very high:

_Dr Bradnock said that in the Kashmir valley - the mainly Muslim area at the centre of the insurgency - support for independence is between 74% and 95%.

But in the predominantly Hindu Jammu division to the south, support is under 1%.
_


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## Jade

Patriot said:


> Interesting...As far as independence goes..Pakistanis clearly support Kashmiris will...if they want to independent state then Pakistanis will support them regardless of Official Pakistani GOP Stance.Independent Kashmir will of course have a lot of Pakistan's Influence and that territory will act as a buffer between India and Pakistan.I far one support establishment of new Kashmir state comprising of both AJK and J&K.



The question of Independent Kashmir doesnt arise as there is no provision for itNeither do Pakistan or India has any position on Independent Kashmir


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## Jade

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The overall percentage of people in favor of Independence in IaK is skewed by the results from outside Kashmir proper, where support for independence is very high:
> 
> _Dr Bradnock said that in the Kashmir valley - the mainly Muslim area at the centre of the insurgency - support for independence is between 74% and 95%.
> 
> But in the predominantly Hindu Jammu division to the south, support is under 1%.
> _




The demographics of J&K are complex and heavily polarized according to regions. UN resolutions may not be the correct solution, at least today; moreover, UN resolutions could create more problems that could be more complex that the original Kashmir problem itself

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## jeypore

*



No 'simple fixes'

Click to expand...

*
This is the bottom line!!!!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

jade1982 said:


> The demographics of J&K are complex and heavily polarized according to regions. UN resolutions may not be the correct solution, at least today; moreover, UN resolutions could create more problems that could be more complex that the original Kashmir problem itself



IIRC, the UN rapporteur, Sir Owen Dixon, was in fact leaning towards dividing the State and holding separate plebiscites in each part because of the demographics. Such a solution would have not been a 'winner take all' sort of result .


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## jolly67

Eye wash, these fictious survey's r done to misguide world opinion.

Independent kashmir means bases for CIA, MOSAD and RAW to work against Pakistan and china.

Kashmir needs plebiscite not survey's.

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## jeypore

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> IIRC, the UN rapporteur, Sir Owen Dixon, was in fact leaning towards dividing the State and holding separate plebiscites in each part because of the demographics. *Such a solution would have not been a 'winner take all' sort of result* .



"All Sort of Results" frees up lot, doesn't it!!!!

These results prove nothing, infact it puts all in neutral again..



> Dr Bradnock said that it was "clear" that a plebiscite on the future of Kashmir - along the lines envisaged in UN resolutions of 1948-49 - is "extremely unlikely to offer a solution today".


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## Jade

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> IIRC, the UN rapporteur, Sir Owen Dixon, was in fact leaning towards dividing the State and holding separate plebiscites in each part because of the demographics. Such a solution would have not been a 'winner take all' sort of result .



In think, dividing the state in not originally envisioned in UN resolution, neither do I think it is proper on the subjects of the state. The only solution I could think of is status co with greater autonomy, but should be preceded by recovering J&K areas under Chinese occupation


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## Frankenstein

If Kashmir wants Independence, why dont both India and Pakistan give them once in for all, end of discussion forever


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## karan.1970

Patriot said:


> Interesting...As far as independence goes..Pakistanis clearly support Kashmiris will...if they want to independent state then Pakistanis will support them regardless of Official Pakistani GOP Stance.Independent Kashmir will of course have a lot of Pakistan's Influence and that territory will act as a buffer between India and Pakistan.I far one support establishment of new Kashmir state comprising of both AJK and J&K.



Whats your view on the Northern Areas G&B?? Areas given to China ??

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## Jazzbot

I personally doubt on the survey.


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## BJlaowai

Frankenstein said:


> If Kashmir wants Independence, why dont both India and Pakistan give them once in for all, end of discussion forever



Pakistan could take the lead in this, since Pakistanis are so genuinely concerned about the welfare of the Kashmiris.
Make Azad Kashmir Azad. Also, Azad Gilgit baltistan.

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## Skeptic

Patriot said:


> Interesting...As far as independence goes..Pakistanis clearly support Kashmiris will...if they want to independent state then *Pakistanis will support them regardless of Official Pakistani GOP Stance.*Independent Kashmir will of course have a lot of Pakistan's Influence and that territory will act as a buffer between India and Pakistan.I far one support establishment of new Kashmir state comprising of both AJK and J&K.



The bolded part is the bone of contention. What exactly is the assertion.

Pakistanis can take the moral high ground of supporting the Kasmiri independence, but it will be GoP's official position that will determine the outcome. Exactly the duality used by Pakistan driving the Kashmir issue.

Never has Independent Kashmir been an official policy of GoP and never has it been proposed by Pakistan as a solution officially. Nowhere in the UN resolutions is the option for independence mentioned. It is just the carrot suspended beyond the reach of Kashmiris enticing them towards violence.

The survey has thrown in results not too different from earlier one's. The indecisiveness of the results indicates the neutrality of it. Reflects perfectly on how things stand: *NO SIMPLE FIX*.

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## Frankenstein

BJlaowai said:


> Pakistan could take the lead in this, since Pakistanis are so genuinely concerned about the welfare of the Kashmiris.
> Make Azad Kashmir Azad. Also, Azad Gilgit baltistan.



Discussin over here is going fine uptill now, please dont troll, and also what the hell is Azad Gilgit Baltistan


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## Emperor Palpatine

Frankenstein said:


> Discussin over here is going fine uptill now, please dont troll, and also what the hell is Azad Gilgit Baltistan



Seems people like to use the word troll a lot these days.. Its the truth..stop spreading crocodile tears for Kashmir..

check the latest survey about Kashmir...around 44% of Azad Kashmir wants independence compared to 42% of Indian Kashmir

truth hurts...doesn't it

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## Frankenstein

Emperor Palpatine said:


> Seems people like to use the word troll a lot these days.. Its the truth..stop spreading crocodile tears for Kashmir..
> 
> check the latest survey about Kashmir...around 44&#37; of Azad Kashmir wants independence compared to *42%* of Indian Kashmir
> 
> truth hurts...doesn't it



What are you doing changing the figures, its 43%, what were you thinking i cant read did you read the whole thing, it also says
* Concern over human rights abuses stands at 43% on the Indian side and 19% on the Pakistani side.

nways, did you read my last post


Frankenstein said:


> If Kashmir wants Independence, why dont both India and *Pakistan* give them once in for all, end of discussion forever



See truth isnt hurting me, might be hurting you, isnt it??

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## pak-yes

Anything that must be done must according to the wishes of Kashmiri people.If they want Independence then that should not be a problem to Pakistan.


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## prodevelopment

Frankenstein said:


> If Kashmir wants Independence, why dont both India and Pakistan give them once in for all, end of discussion forever



Because neither India, nor Pakistan will ever agree to that. 

It is pretty easy to make such sympathetic statements and win online discussions, it is another thing to put your money where your mouth is. We Indians admit we'll never let J&K out of our country. Hypocrisy comes from across the border in the form of 'we sympathise with Kashmiris but our government wants something else'.

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## Marxist

Srinagar, May 26 -- The United Jehad Council, an amalgam of more than a dozen P-0-K-based militant outfits, has expressed willingness to enter into a dialogue with New Delhi in response to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's recent invitation for talks. "The Government of India must realize that the bilateral efforts made in the past have proved futile due to the absence of the real Kashmiri representatives in such initiatives.

India's stubborn attitude towards Kashmir issue has always been an impediment in the meaningful talks," Syed Sadaqat Hussain, a spokesman of the UJC, was quoted by local dailies in Srinagar on Wednesday. The UJC's new stand was lead story of most of the English and Urdu dailies in Srinagar today.

The militant conglomerate, though have set pre-conditions for the talks, has scaled down on their demands compared to its past statements on dialogue. "If Dr Manmohan Singh is sincere on initiating meaningful talks with militant leadership, he must take these initiatives to set the process in motion," said Hussain.

The pre-conditions set by the UJC to sit with New Delhi are revocation of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) and Public Safety Act (PSA), release of political detainees and curbing all kinds of human rights violations in Jammu and Kashmir. Moderate All Parties Hurriyat Conference chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq for creating conducive atmosphere for a dialogue has put the same conditions forth.

Conspicuously, the traditional line to declare Kashmir as a dispute by India was missing in the UJC statement. "There should be no precondition like asking militants to lay down arms before entering into any parleys.

If the talks process (with militant leadership) is initiated in good faith and with a sincerity of purpose and it makes headway towards the resolution of the issue, the militant activities would cease on their own," said Hussian. Dr Manmohan Singh had at a press conference in Delhi on Monday said his government was ready to hold dialogue with all groups in Jammu and Kashmir "which are outside the political mainstream provided they shun violence.

" Past dialogue initiative In July 2000 Hizbul Mujahideen, largest indigenous militant outfit of Kashmir, declared a unilateral cease-fire. The cease-fire collapsed after two rounds of talks in Srinagar.

Jehad council ready for talks with New Delhi - Yahoo! India News


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## Nononsense

I know , Indian stand of Kashmir will stay as is forever, which ever govt tries to negotiate on the stand , will call for political death.

There are international/ huge domestic capitalistic interests in Indian politics, to keep a favorable govt in center. They can Buy polls / peblicite /or what ver/ even UN officials, Tum log Baat kya kar rahe ho.

Who cares about people!!


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## Frankenstein

prodevelopment said:


> Because neither India, nor Pakistan will ever agree to that.
> 
> It is pretty easy to make such sympathetic statements and win online discussions, it is another thing to put your money where your mouth is. We Indians admit we'll never let J&K out of our country. Hypocrisy comes from across the border in the form of 'we sympathise with Kashmiris but our government wants something else'.



Yeah right, like once we give independence to Kashmir, your country barge in, and capture the remaining part, Kashmir dont have any military to stop your Army, and same thing will happen just like it is happening in Jammu, human Violation, if you think its Hypocrisy so be it, at least it is giving Kashmir protection against one of the most savage and brutal force


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## Nononsense

^^^
My bet, let the peblicite happen in Indian Kashmir, in front of Kofi Annan. Sure India will win. "Bhaiya sabse bada rupiah!!"

And even if the officials are from Pakistan even then the result will be same.


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## prodevelopment

Frankenstein said:


> Yeah right, like once we give independence to Kashmir, your country barge in, and capture the remaining part, Kashmir dont have any military to stop your Army, and same thing will happen just like it is happening in Jammu, human Violation, if you think its Hypocrisy so be it, at least it giving Kashmir protection against the most savage and brutal force



If that's your only concern, the solution is simple. 

Ask UN forces to come to P O K and withdraw Pakistani forces from there. Then conduct the plebiscite. 

Would that not serve the purpose?


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## bc040400065

*Although the figures given here specially about AJK i personally don't agree but Few points that you did not wanted to highlight but i will.... *




A survey which a British academic says is the first systematic attempt to establish the opinions of Kashmiris has produced "striking results".

Robert Bradnock interviewed more than 3,700 people in Indian- and Pakistani-administered Kashmir to assess their views on various issues.

One of the key questions put to respondents was how they saw the future of the territory.

*Nearly half of those interviewed said they wanted independence.*
(Again shows they don't want to be with India)
Another question asked for their views over the continuing insurgency.

Dr Bradnock - an associate fellow at the Chatham House think-tank in London - says that the survey has produced startling conclusions, especially in relation to the future of the territory.
No 'simple fixes'

*It revealed that on average 44% of people in Pakistani-administered Kashmir favoured independence, compared with 43% in Indian-administered Kashmir.* (No matter what but one thing is for sure that majority don't want to be with India)
"However while this is the most popular option overall, it fails to carry an overall majority on either side.

"In fact on the Indian side of the Line of Control [LoC] - which separates the two regions - opinions are heavily polarised," Dr Bradnock told the BBC.
Journalists take cover during a clash in Srinagar (file photo) The Kashmir insurgency has raged for 20 years

The survey found that the *"overwhelming majority" *of people want a solution to the dispute, even though there are no "simple fixes".

Dr Bradnock said that in the Kashmir valley - the mainly Muslim area at the centre of the insurgency - *support for independence is between 74% and 95%.*

But in the predominantly Hindu Jammu division to the south, support is under 1%.

Other findings include:

** 80% of Kashmiris on both sides of the LoC say that the dispute is important to them personally*

** Concern over human rights abuses stands at 43% on the Indian side and 19% on the Pakistani side*

* Concern over unemployment is strong across the territory - 66% on the Pakistani side and *87% on the Indian side*
* Few are optimistic over peace talks - only 27% on the Pakistani side and 57% on the Indian side thought they would succeed.

Dr Bradnock said that it was "clear" that a plebiscite on the future of Kashmir - along the lines envisaged in UN resolutions of 1948-49 - is "extremely unlikely to offer a solution today".

"The results of the polls show that that there is no single proposition for the future of Kashmir which could be put to the population... and get majority support," he said.

"The poll offers no simple fixes but offers signposts - through which the political process, engaging India, Pakistan and wider Kashmiri representation - could move it towards resolution." 


BBC News - 'First' Kashmir survey produces 'startling' results


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## Frankenstein

Nononsense said:


> ^^^
> My bet, let the peblicite happen in Indian Kashmir, in front of Kofi Annan. Sure India will win. *"Bhaiya sabse bada rupiah!!"*
> 
> And even if the officials are from Pakistan even then the result will be same.



Your rupiah isnt giving any good to kashmiri people or is it??

There is no peace in this Forum already and this Kashmir Issue is making it alot worst, let just dont discuss it alright


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## Frankenstein

prodevelopment said:


> If that's your only concern, the solution is simple.
> 
> Ask UN forces to come to P O K and withdraw Pakistani forces from there. Then conduct the plebiscite.
> 
> Would that not serve the purpose?



yeah it will, if it happens in the both sides and at the same time


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## bc040400065

prodevelopment said:


> If that's your only concern, the solution is simple.
> 
> Ask UN forces to come to P O K and withdraw Pakistani forces from there. Then conduct the plebiscite.
> 
> Would that not serve the purpose?



Why India don't pullout its troops from kashmir ?? After all it was india that took kashmir to UN not pakistan... and India accepted the UN resolutions .....


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## Jade

The survey clearly shows rather than the conflict, which only 36% of the residents choose as the major problem, the other issues such as unemployment (87%), corruption (68 %), poor economic development ( 45%) and human right abuses (43%) have been quoted as major problems faced by the people. This is no different from the issues faced by the people of other parts of the country


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## Jade

bc040400065 said:


> Why India don't pullout its troops from kashmir ?? After all it was india that took kashmir to UN not pakistan... and India accepted the UN resolutions .....



Where is the Kashmir of 1947? Kashmir of 2010 is administered by the three countries: India, Pakistan, and China. There certain precondition that have to be fulfilled for UN resolutions

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## mehru

Both countries are not in favour of independent Kashmir. Both don't want to lose land area. Solution in my opinion is neither plebiscite nor independence from both countries. The only solution is to accept LOC as international boundary. That's the only way to bring peace in region.

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## prodevelopment

Frankenstein said:


> yeah it will, if it happens in the both sides and at the same time



But, according to you India doesn't want to conduct the plebiscite, while Pakistan does!!!!!!

Then what, if I may, is stopping Pakistan from conducting a plebiscite in P O K (saying the results will be implemented once India conducts one as well). This will light a fire under both India's as well as UN's ***** on the issue.

My opinion is that Pakistan is just playing with the Kashmiri emotions. They just want to vilify India while secretly following the exact same strategy as India on the plebiscite.

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## sparklingway

If survey does not show what thou expects about the thinking of people of a place thou cannot claim to have a knowledge about, then thou shall claim it as baseless propaganda without studying method of survey, statistical error probability calculations and reach judgments that were reached for thou by elders and society.

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## Jade

bc040400065 said:


> *Although the figures given here specially about AJK i personally don't agree but Few points that you did not wanted to highlight but i will.... *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A survey which a British academic says is the first systematic attempt to establish the opinions of Kashmiris has produced "striking results".
> 
> Robert Bradnock interviewed more than 3,700 people in Indian- and Pakistani-administered Kashmir to assess their views on various issues.
> 
> One of the key questions put to respondents was how they saw the future of the territory.
> 
> *Nearly half of those interviewed said they wanted independence.*
> (Again shows they don't want to be with India)
> Another question asked for their views over the continuing insurgency.
> 
> Dr Bradnock - an associate fellow at the Chatham House think-tank in London - says that the survey has produced startling conclusions, especially in relation to the future of the territory.
> No 'simple fixes'
> 
> *It revealed that on average 44% of people in Pakistani-administered Kashmir favoured independence, compared with 43% in Indian-administered Kashmir.* (No matter what but one thing is for sure that majority don't want to be with India)
> "However while this is the most popular option overall, it fails to carry an overall majority on either side.
> 
> "In fact on the Indian side of the Line of Control [LoC] - which separates the two regions - opinions are heavily polarised," Dr Bradnock told the BBC.
> Journalists take cover during a clash in Srinagar (file photo) The Kashmir insurgency has raged for 20 years
> 
> The survey found that the *"overwhelming majority" *of people want a solution to the dispute, even though there are no "simple fixes".
> 
> Dr Bradnock said that in the Kashmir valley - the mainly Muslim area at the centre of the insurgency - *support for independence is between 74% and 95%.*
> 
> But in the predominantly Hindu Jammu division to the south, support is under 1%.
> 
> Other findings include:
> 
> ** 80% of Kashmiris on both sides of the LoC say that the dispute is important to them personally*
> 
> ** Concern over human rights abuses stands at 43% on the Indian side and 19% on the Pakistani side*
> 
> * Concern over unemployment is strong across the territory - 66% on the Pakistani side and *87% on the Indian side*
> * Few are optimistic over peace talks - only 27% on the Pakistani side and 57% on the Indian side thought they would succeed.
> 
> Dr Bradnock said that it was "clear" that a plebiscite on the future of Kashmir - along the lines envisaged in UN resolutions of 1948-49 - is "extremely unlikely to offer a solution today".
> 
> "The results of the polls show that that there is no single proposition for the future of Kashmir which could be put to the population... and get majority support," he said.
> 
> "The poll offers no simple fixes but offers signposts - through which the political process, engaging India, Pakistan and wider Kashmiri representation - could move it towards resolution."
> 
> 
> BBC News - 'First' Kashmir survey produces 'startling' results



It depends on how you interpret results. Using the same figures, I can interpret differently


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## prodevelopment

sparklingway said:


> If survey does not show what thou expects about the thinking of people of a place thou cannot claim to have a knowledge about, then thou shall claim it as baseless propaganda without studying method of survey, statistical error probability calculations and reach judgments that were reached for thou by elders and society.


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## sparklingway

I have met Kashmiris and although I would not entirely agree with the survey as far as I saw it but the voice for independence is pretty great.

Perhaps, Pakistanis are mostly surprised at the high percentage of demand for indepdence in AJK. Well 44&#37; is way too, but I'd say it isn't entirely false. AJK already enjoys a lot of autonomy and they exert pressure on the Federal Government whenever they want, demand subsidized electricity (Mangla hamara hai) and pay way too little taxes compared to the rest of Pakistan.

We're indoctrinated that Kashmir is ours, rightfully ours and "Kashmir ban ke rahay ga Pakistan". Hence nobody even knows that a UN administered plebiscite if held (ever), then it will have to be held in AJK and GB as well, for India has claim over them (more over AJK and less over GB) as much as we have a claim over occupied Kashmir. Hence, it's not surprising that they too view Independence an option. Also keep in mind that GB was running effectively thanks to extensive works by the Agha Khan Foundation. Had it not been for them, rebellious voices would have risen in GB as well.

As for the occupied Kashmir, I met a whole bunch of Uni of Srinagar MBA students on a trip to Delhi and we used to spend time with the whole bunch at night after the whole tourist things. One of them was a diehard freedom fighter having lost a brother in the movement but all of the rest were all for Independence or had no opinion about the whole issue. Nobody among them 30 or so I might wanted to be with Pakistan, 1 wanted to be with India and the rest 28 wanted to go Independent.

But as far as I see it, Independence for them is unrealizable.


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## Jade

sparklingway said:


> I have met Kashmiris and although I would not entirely agree with the survey as far as I saw it but the voice for independence is pretty great.
> 
> Perhaps, Pakistanis are mostly surprised at the high percentage of demand for indepdence in AJK. Well 44% is way too, but I'd say it isn't entirely false. AJK already enjoys a lot of autonomy and they exert pressure on the Federal Government whenever they want, demand subsidized electricity (Mangla hamara hai) and pay way too little taxes compared to the rest of Pakistan.
> 
> We're indoctrinated that Kashmir is ours, rightfully ours and "Kashmir ban ke rahay ga Pakistan". Hence nobody even knows that a UN administered plebiscite if held (ever), then it will have to be held in AJK and GB as well, for India has claim over them (more over AJK and less over GB) as much as we have a claim over occupied Kashmir. Hence, it's not surprising that they too view Independence an option. Also keep in mind that GB was running effectively thanks to extensive works by the Agha Khan Foundation. Had it not been for them, rebellious voices would have risen in GB as well.
> 
> As for the occupied Kashmir, I met a whole bunch of Uni of Srinagar MBA students on a trip to Delhi and we used to spend time with the whole bunch at night after the whole tourist things. One of them was a diehard freedom fighter having lost a brother in the movement but all of the rest were all for Independence or had no opinion about the whole issue. Nobody among them 30 or so I might wanted to be with Pakistan, 1 wanted to be with India and the rest 28 wanted to go Independent.
> 
> But as far as I see it, Independence for them is unrealizable.



sparklingway,

What you said could be true; however, the group is pretty homogeneous(Students/from one institution/Srinagar). If I were you, I would not conclude unequivocally that all Kashmiris are for independence

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## RobbieS

sparklingway said:


> I have met Kashmiris and although I would not entirely agree with the survey as far as I saw it but the voice for independence is pretty great.
> 
> Perhaps, Pakistanis are mostly surprised at the high percentage of demand for indepdence in AJK. Well 44% is way too, but I'd say it isn't entirely false. AJK already enjoys a lot of autonomy and they exert pressure on the Federal Government whenever they want, demand subsidized electricity (Mangla hamara hai) and pay way too little taxes compared to the rest of Pakistan.
> 
> We're indoctrinated that Kashmir is ours, rightfully ours and "Kashmir ban ke rahay ga Pakistan". Hence nobody even knows that a UN administered plebiscite if held (ever), then it will have to be held in AJK and GB as well, for India has claim over them (more over AJK and less over GB) as much as we have a claim over occupied Kashmir. Hence, it's not surprising that they too view Independence an option. Also keep in mind that GB was running effectively thanks to extensive works by the Agha Khan Foundation. Had it not been for them, rebellious voices would have risen in GB as well.
> 
> As for the occupied Kashmir, I met a whole bunch of Uni of Srinagar MBA students on a trip to Delhi and we used to spend time with the whole bunch at night after the whole tourist things. One of them was a diehard freedom fighter having lost a brother in the movement but all of the rest were all for Independence or had no opinion about the whole issue. Nobody among them 30 or so I might wanted to be with Pakistan, 1 wanted to be with India and the rest 28 wanted to go Independent.
> 
> But as far as I see it, Independence for them is unrealizable.



You could be right about those students from Kashmir. My experiences with my Kashmiri classmates in my B-school in Delhi were similar. They were overwhelmingly pro-independence. Though it did take considerable time for them to open up with their views and that too not with everybody as they were fearful of sending out the wrong signals.


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## sparklingway

Perhaps, people of Jammu and other non-Muslim dominated areas might not be so pro-Independent, but as the survey says Muslims in the area show nearly unanimous support for Independence.

Answer this question:-

Will the people of India accept an Independent Kashmir? Will the GoI accept an Independent Kashmir? I'm not questioning Pakistani and GoP view, I'm asking opinion from your side and let's say that Kashmir decides Independence and chooses to have good extensive relations with both India and Pakistan and decides not have any armed forces of its own. Will there ever be the decision or intention to capture Kashmir again from GoI? As I said earlier, your side only, do not bring GoP or Pakistanis in your reply.


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## Jazzbot

prodevelopment said:


> If that's your only concern, the solution is simple.
> 
> Ask UN forces to come to P O K and withdraw Pakistani forces from there. Then conduct the plebiscite.
> 
> Would that not serve the purpose?



and what about vise verse..?
i bet now you ppl will rush to kill me lool.


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## prodevelopment

Independent Kashmir is a landmine that no politician would want to step on, at least right now. If the opinion of the people of India changes, then GoI can change it's stand on the issue.

Which brings me to the Indian public. Most of us don't know much about the Kashmir issue, UN resolutions and all. What we do know is fed to us by the media, which deals mostly in sensationalist stories. Even if the general opinion of Indians changes on Kashmiri independence, I see the hardliners on this issue in India dominate the airwaves, and hence, the policy on this issue.

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## Jade

sparklingway said:


> Perhaps, people of Jammu and other non-Muslim dominated areas might not be so pro-Independent, but as the survey says Muslims in the area show nearly unanimous support for Independence.
> 
> Answer this question:-
> 
> Will the people of India accept an Independent Kashmir? Will the GoI accept an Independent Kashmir? I'm not questioning Pakistani and GoP view, I'm asking opinion from your side and let's say that Kashmir decides Independence and chooses to have good extensive relations with both India and Pakistan and decides not have any armed forces of its own. Will there ever be the decision or intention to capture Kashmir again from GoI? As I said earlier, your side only, do not bring GoP or Pakistanis in your reply.



The official position of India is clear: All of Kashmir belongs to India; and moreover there is no provision for Independent Kashmir in UN resolution.

As per the general Indian population is concerned, I dont have much idea, however, I feel majority of them would like the LOC be converted to international border, with greater autonomy to J&K, and free movement of people and trade across both sides

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## Skeptic

sparklingway said:


> Answer this question:-
> 
> Will the people of India accept an Independent Kashmir? Will the GoI accept an Independent Kashmir? I'm not questioning Pakistani and GoP view, I'm asking opinion from your side and let's say that Kashmir decides Independence and chooses to have good extensive relations with both India and Pakistan and decides not have any armed forces of its own. Will there ever be the decision or intention to capture Kashmir again from GoI? As I said earlier, your side only, do not bring GoP or Pakistanis in your reply.



How are the Kashmiris going to decide for independence? Who will give them this option - Which is not even present in the now redundent UN resolutions.

Still, The answer if you do not know till now - Is a blunt *NO*.
We do not think Independent Kashmir is an option. Autonomy with a porus border can be an option, but outright independence has never ever been an option from Indian perspective.


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## prodevelopment

jazzy_superior said:


> and what about vise verse..?



Already answered here:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/59373-first-kashmir-survey-produces-startling-results-3.html#post884821

My contention is that neither India, nor Pakistan wants to conduct the plebiscite. It is futile for us to blame each other on this issue.


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## TheBraveHeart

sparklingway said:


> Answer this question:-
> 
> Will the people of India accept an Independent Kashmir? Will the GoI accept an Independent Kashmir? I'm not questioning Pakistani and GoP view, I'm asking opinion from your side and let's say that Kashmir decides Independence and chooses to have good extensive relations with both India and Pakistan and decides not have any armed forces of its own. Will there ever be the decision or intention to capture Kashmir again from GoI? As I said earlier, your side only, do not bring GoP or Pakistanis in your reply.



Its a pretty simple answer if u speak for majority of Indians and the answer is "NO". The country and its people have suffered numerous sacrifices/difficulties coz of the bone of contention "J&K" and its difficult to neglect those scars. 

GOI might accept certain autonomy but can't accept Independent kashmir coz the government has to toe to people's wish.... 

But the situation might change if at all Pakistan grants freedom to occupied kashmir,& so does china, there can be change of views.

And u r completely wrong of intentions of capturing kashmir by GOI,past/present/future; all the mess that we are in today is a result of over ambitions on the other side of the border.

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## RobbieS

sparklingway said:


> Perhaps, people of Jammu and other non-Muslim dominated areas might not be so pro-Independent, but as the survey says Muslims in the area show nearly unanimous support for Independence.
> 
> Answer this question:-
> 
> Will the people of India accept an Independent Kashmir? Will the GoI accept an Independent Kashmir? I'm not questioning Pakistani and GoP view, I'm asking opinion from your side and let's say that Kashmir decides Independence and chooses to have good extensive relations with both India and Pakistan and decides not have any armed forces of its own. Will there ever be the decision or intention to capture Kashmir again from GoI? As I said earlier, your side only, do not bring GoP or Pakistanis in your reply.



Neither the people of India nor the GoI would ever allow an independent Kashmir. I wont go into the "accept" part as accepting it means it already exists. Though many people may realize the Kashmiris' demand they also know that it will never happen.

The reason is simple, India is a conglomerate of ethnicities and religious groups. One part breaks away, it prepares the ground for others to follow shaking the entire foundation that this country is built upon.


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## sparklingway

RobbieS said:


> Neither the people of India nor the GoI would ever allow an independent Kashmir. I wont go into the "accept" part as accepting it means it already exists. Though many people may realize the Kashmiris' demand they also know that it will never happen.
> 
> The reason is simple, India is a conglomerate of ethnicities and religious groups. One part breaks away, it prepares the ground for others to follow shaking the entire foundation that this country is built upon.



That means no solution until Pakistan decides that demanding Kashmir has little benefit, and that perhaps might never happen.

So bye-bye to peace then.


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## Skeptic

sparklingway said:


> That means no solution until Pakistan decides that demanding Kashmir has little benefit, and that perhaps might never happen.


A solution has to be there, which is acceptable and face saving for both govts. and the populace. Where neither loose land or the strategic stand, reinastated with several wars. Lot of discussion over this has happened in the Seven possible Solution thread, you might want to visit there.

From Indian standpoint the acceptable options are:
a) LoC as IB: we give over claim from Pakistani Kashmir, GB and northern areas and Pakistan gives up claim from the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir.

b) status-quo with porus border: pre-condition of no Pakistani support to militancy.

c) Higher Autonomy for Jammu and Kashmir can be discussed

d) something like joint administration of Kashmir suggested during Musharraf - Vajpayee meet.

Since this is *P*DF, we should be more focussed on what govt. of Pakistan thinks and why has there been constant curb on saperatist voices in Pakistani administered Kashmir, Why has GB and Northern areas included into Pakistani mainstream with outsidered now settling in and permanently altering the demographics.

Also, when was Independent Kashmir ever officially promoted by Pakistan .




> So bye-bye to peace then.


The misfortune of people born in the most beautiful region.

PS: you know even some of the PDF mods (Asim)and hyperactive pro independent Kashmir members (debong, who swears his relatives are militants) were not aware that UN resolution has no provision for Independent Kashmir, such has been the extent of misinformation spread by GoP.

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## Fracker

I don't think independence to Kashmir was any option, why this option is been used? The option should be like, want to join Pakistan, want to join india. Other options are only favoring western countries this is why they have done this survey, based on their own needs, wants/desires....


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## BJlaowai

sparklingway said:


> Perhaps, people of Jammu and other non-Muslim dominated areas might not be so pro-Independent, but as the survey says Muslims in the area show nearly unanimous support for Independence.
> 
> Answer this question:-
> 
> Will the people of India accept an Independent Kashmir? *Will the GoI accept an Independent Kashmir? I'm not questioning Pakistani and GoP view, *I'm asking opinion from your side and let's say that Kashmir decides Independence and chooses to have good extensive relations with both India and Pakistan and decides not have any armed forces of its own. Will there ever be the decision or intention to capture Kashmir again from GoI? As I said earlier, your side only, do not bring GoP or Pakistanis in your reply.



After all that has happend in the last 60 odd years, the amount of lives, blood, sweat, money and energy wasted, I don't think Indians will just agree to let go of Kashmir for nothing.
On the other hand, Kashmir would have been an Independant country (like Bhutan or Nepal) or even have got merged with Pakistan, had not Pakistan tried to forcibly annex Kashmir in 1947. So, Pakistan is the prime reason for Kashimir loosing independance.


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## RobbieS

sparklingway said:


> That means no solution until Pakistan decides that demanding Kashmir has little benefit, and that perhaps might never happen.
> 
> So bye-bye to peace then.



Yes, I remember watching a show by Najam Sethi where he alluded to precisely the same point. To make the peace process move forward Pakistan has to be pragmatic and realize that India is not ready to give up Kashmir. Neither by force neither by diplomacy. India will keep on pushing resources into the battle zone but will tolerate neither a Pakistani Kashmir neither an independent Kashmir. 60 years of bloodshed is proof enough. The reason is what I mentioned in my earlier post. So its futile to fight over it thinking Kashmir will one day be a part of Pakistan. 

I am not trying to say that Pakistan is the one that has to make all the concessions. India too has to realize that some sort of autonomous set-up has to be in place for everlasting peace. May be a joint governance system or may be converting LoC into a permanent boundary, but we have to move forward. And most importantly peace shouldn't be a hostage to the Kashmir situation. We can progress on many other issues without holding them hostage to the Kashmir issue.

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## BJlaowai

sparklingway said:


> That means no solution until Pakistan decides that demanding Kashmir has little benefit, and that perhaps might never happen.
> 
> So bye-bye to peace then.



What is GoP's stand on Independant Kashmir?
I know GoP has all along been pushing for plebisite. But the UN plebisite doesn't give the option of independance, which most Kashmiri msulims want.


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## Prometheus

Srinagar: The Jammu and Kashmir government has charged the team of doctors who carried out autopsies on two women in south Kashmir's Shopian town last May with fudging evidence to defame the police and the security forces. 

"It had been found that the accused doctors fabricated and fudged the slides with an objective of defaming the police and security forces thereby violating Rule 3 of J&K Employees Act 1971," says a state government chargesheet against the doctors. 

"The conduct and behaviour of the doctors had been prima facie found to have become cause of general strikes in the state and also resulted in the deaths of civilians," the chargesheet adds. 

Two women, Nilofar Jan, 22, and her sister-in-law Asiya Jan, 17, were found dead by the side of a stream in Shopian town on May 29 last year, triggering a Valley-wide agitation with people alleging that the duo had been raped and subsequently murdered by the security forces. 

The allegations had been triggered by the utterances of a lady doctor posted in Shopian town who carried out the autopsies of the dead women along with other local doctors. 

After the case was handed over to the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI), fresh autopsies were conducted and sustained interrogation of the local doctors revealed that scientific evidence about the deaths of the two women had been fudged to give credibility to the allegations that the women had been raped and then murdered. 

The CBI investigations had confirmed that the two women had died due to drowning. 

The state government based its chargesheet on the CBI findings.Shopian doctors charged with fudging to defame security forces

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## EjazR

Just to clarify that 35&#37; of Jammu is muslim-mostly Gujjars and Paharis and 45% of Ladakh is muslim as well - mostly shias in Ladakh. Here too the majority sentiment is pro-India across religious divide.

In the valley which consists of about 3.5million to 4 million people there is considerable support for independence but this too is concentrated around the urban centers. The rural areas tend to be pro-Indian, possibly because they have suffered more from militants. But pro-Pakistani support is still at the fringes. Remember that the entire population of J&K in India is 11million so you can't ignore the rest of the population and listen to the valley alone.

The peacepoll survey in my view had a more novel method of developing consensus in which they asked the people a negative survey on a given set of options. That is what would be the MOST UNACCEPTABLE solution to them. The relevant question is shown below although other related questions were asked as well.


As can be seen the least resistance for IaK to the autonomy solution within India at 23% finding it unacceptable. Pertinent to note that this is the second least unacceptable solution to Muslims in IaK as well.

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## deepak75

sparklingway said:


> That means no solution until Pakistan decides that demanding Kashmir has little benefit, and that perhaps might never happen.
> 
> So bye-bye to peace then.



Sir, no side today can be the clear winner in Kashmir per things as they stand today and as can be seen on near horizon. So we will have to identify middle grounds and a road map. 

India will not relinquish our part of Kashmir. It cannot be done in any way - least of all by using terrorists. Past Pakistan strategy in this regard has only alienated Indian Kashmiris even further as no one wants violence in the valley. If violence was the way to go and if they wanted to join Pakistan then Gibraltar would have settled it or the terrorism being supported since the 90s would have definitely put this matter to bed.

Pakistan is not looking for and Independent Kashmir but something on the lines of AJK. If they wish was to honour the independence of Pakistani side of Kashmir was real from Pakistan then they would not have carved our Gilgit - Baltistan out of what originally was Kashmir.

Kashmiris want independence but unfortunately their beautiful abode is sitting on a very important geo-political position and their outright Independence is neither tenable nor viable.

What can be the way forward:

1. India agrees to a road map of growth of an autonomous Kashmir by agreeing to steps. Start with first reducing the military and increasing the police (this is already happening). Develop other organs of a democracy (as is already happening). Allow trans LOC trade, people movement, and make the border porous, finally allow Kashmiris to run their own state, a something like Vatican within Rome. The time frames of various steps can be basis agreement of India and the Indian Kashmiris.

2. For India to be encouraged to do the above, Pakistan needs to do all the above in their part of Kashmir with an agreement betwen Pakistan and the Pakistani Kashiris + also stop terrorist training camps, shut down LeT, JuD or whatever is the current morphosis of the "take Kashmir by force and military attrition" strategy.

3. As Jammu is part of the erstwhile Kashmir State, so is Gilgit Baltistan and also the part of Kashmir that Pakistan "gifted" to China. So any discussion has to keep in mind this whole geographical entity and there can be no picks and leaves.

4. The original population of Indian Kashmir was the majority muslims + minority Hindus. These Hindus that were driven away from the valley by the terrorists in the 90s need to be allowed to return to their homes and villages and they need to be included in the decision making process if there is any hope of a real solution. Again no picks and leaves, it has to be an all encompassing solution.

5. The Kashmiri separtists need to take a holiday (which they will have to after the support from Pakistan ceases because going by the past election turnouts, that is the only support that they have) and the true Kashmiri issues of growth, employment, prosperity, peace needs to be brought to the fore. With the agreed path of various steps finally providing autonomy to Kashmir, that should not be difficult. There has to be a way in which all are winners and the definitions of win needs to be re-thought.

6. So finally peace can be achieved by a plan over the next several years, which will via step needs commitment from India for increased autonomy and not territorial indepence. Pakistan needs to water down the dream of a Kashmir Vassal state or a part of Pakistan. They need to agree like India to finally provide their part of Kashmir (including Gilgit Baltistan) with similar autonomy over agreed time frame and steps and not territorial independence. China needs to return the part of Kashmir that they were gifted by Pakistan. And finally and most importantly, the Kashmiri leaders need to focus more on the growth of their region and the prosperity of the citizens and in the process achieve autonomy of rule limited only by territorial freedom.


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## Tiger Awan

mehru said:


> Both countries are not in favour of independent Kashmir. Both don't want to lose land area. Solution in my opinion is neither plebiscite nor independence from both countries. The only solution is to accept LOC as international boundary. That's the only way to bring peace in region.



Well said.

So in order to ensure peace you can go to any extent. You will even give your home to ensure peace??????

This is not the solution. If we today agree to give Kashmir to india (to ensure peace  ) tomorrow she will demand Gilgit-Baldistan (and so on). There is no way to satisfy indian hunger.


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## deepak75

Tiger Awan said:


> Well said.
> 
> So in order to ensure peace you can go to any extent. You will even give your home to ensure peace??????
> 
> This is not the solution. If we today agree to give Kashmir to india (to ensure peace  ) tomorrow she will demand Gilgit-Baldistan (and so on). There is no way to satisfy indian hunger.



I am a little confused with that. What exactly do you *have* today that India is asking you to *give*?


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## Fracker

EjazR said:


> Just to clarify that 35&#37; of Jammu is muslim-mostly Gujjars and Paharis and 45% of Ladakh is muslim as well - mostly shias in Ladakh. Here too the majority sentiment is pro-India across religious divide.
> 
> In the valley which consists of about 3.5million to 4 million people there is considerable support for independence. But pro-Pakistani support is still at the fringes. Remember that the entire population of J&K in India is 11million so you can't ignore the rest of the population and listen to the valley alone.
> 
> The peacepoll survey in my view had a more novel method of developing consensus in which they asked the people a negative survey on a given set of options. That is what would be the MOST UNACCEPTABLE solution to them. The relevant question is shown below although other related questions were asked as well.
> 
> 
> As can be seen the least resistance for IaK to the autonomy solution within India at 23% finding it unacceptable. Pertinent to note that this is the second least unacceptable solution to Muslims in IaK as well.



You can grab your ear, how ever you like, nothing going to happen. If you guyz are so much sure that Kashmiries want to join India then be it, work on UN Resolution 1948, we would know where exactly kashmiri people interest lays. I will say all kashmiries want to join pakistan, you would say kashmir is part of india. Nothing going to happen. Just work on resolution, and follow what has been already accepted by India. or accept india has forcefully occupied kashmir without kashmiries will.


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## Nononsense

sparklingway said:


> That means no solution until Pakistan decides that demanding Kashmir has little benefit, and that perhaps might never happen.
> 
> So bye-bye to peace then.



Correct! India can take 20 more Mumbai like attacks on her, but the kashmir stand cannot change. 

If it accepts to succeed kashmir independence, then there are 20 others minor ones which will get fuel. Then religious ground will not be the only thing , we are so ethnically diverse there is no end to it.

Actuallly on contrary Kashmir is critical more to INdia.


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## EjazR

I might also add that many Pakistanis believe that the hawkish position on J&K in India is convert the LoC as the final border. But this is actually the mainstream as well as centrist position.

The hawkish position is to claim the entire territory of J&K including Pakistani Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan as a part of India as was intended by the Instrument of Ascension.
It should not be forgotten that these areas also had a significant number of Hindus and Sikhs who were forced out of their land and had to take refuge in Indian J&K as well.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Whats your view on the Northern Areas G&B?? Areas given to China ??



GB have not been integrated into Pakistan because they are considered part of disputed territory under the UNSC resolutions. The area adjusted with China was uninhabited and largely barren at the time, and its future status is also subject to negotiations between China and the nation that the Kashmiris choose to join once a plebiscite occurs.


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## Prometheus

Tiger Awan said:


> Well said.
> 
> So in order to ensure peace you can go to any extent. You will even give your home to ensure peace??????
> 
> This is not the solution. If we today agree to give Kashmir to india (to ensure peace  ) tomorrow she will demand Gilgit-Baldistan (and so on). There is no way to satisfy indian hunger.



sorry Gilgit etc is part of Kashmir


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Emperor Palpatine said:


> Seems people like to use the word troll a lot these days.. Its the truth..stop spreading crocodile tears for Kashmir..
> 
> check the latest survey about Kashmir...around 44% of Azad Kashmir wants independence compared to 42% of Indian Kashmir
> 
> truth hurts...doesn't it



Read the survey carefully - the IaK results are skewed because support for independence in predominantly Hindu Jammu is around 1%. The support for independence in IaK proper _'is between 74% and 95%'_


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## Rafael

Nononsense said:


> ^^^
> My bet, let the peblicite happen in Indian Kashmir, in front of Kofi Annan. Sure India will win. "Bhaiya sabse bada rupiah!!"
> 
> And even if the officials are from Pakistan even then the result will be same.




Who is stopping your govt. then?

Get this done with so that we both could live in peace, if kashmiris favour india over Pakistan that is!


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## Jade

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> GB have not been integrated into Pakistan because they are considered part of disputed territory under the UNSC resolutions. The area adjusted with China was uninhabited and largely barren at the time, and its future status is also subject to negotiations between China and the nation that the Kashmiris choose to join once a plebiscite occurs.



The question on areas adjusted to or occupied by China is not whether they are uninhabited or not, but how strategically they are important to China; moreover, China claims some of the occupied areas as part of original Tibet. There is no question that China is ever going to abandon its position neither there are any pacts or resolutions to make China give up the occupied land.

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## Tiger Awan

deepak75 said:


> I am a little confused with that. What exactly do you *have* today that India is asking you to *give*?






Prometheus said:


> sorry Gilgit etc is part of Kashmir




me need not to answer now


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

jade1982 said:


> The question on areas adjusted to or occupied by China is not whether they are uninhabited or not, but how strategically they are important to China; moreover, China claims some of the occupied areas as part of original Tibet. There is no question that China is ever going to abandon its position neither there are any pacts or resolutions to make China give up the occupied land.



The point about the areas being uninhabited is that they would not impact the result of a plebiscite.


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## Jade

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The point about the areas being uninhabited is that they would not impact the result of a plebiscite.



The areas may not impact the plebiscite. However, for plebiscite to happen, there are certain preconditions. One of them is Kashmir of 1947(Geographically).


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## KS

why no replies from our Pakistani friends..?

Too much difficulty in grasping the truth that the big,bad Indian Army is not involved in this..?


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## Rafael

Karthic Sri said:


> why no replies from our Pakistani friends..?
> 
> Too much difficulty in grasping the truth that the big,bad Indian Army is not involved in this..?




You wanna flame?


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## KS

Marxist said:


> Srinagar, May 26 -- The United Jehad Council, an amalgam of more than a dozen P-0-K-based militant outfits, has expressed willingness to enter into a dialogue with New Delhi in response to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's recent invitation for talks. "The Government of India must realize that the bilateral efforts made in the past have proved futile due to the absence of the real Kashmiri representatives in such initiatives.
> 
> India's stubborn attitude towards Kashmir issue has always been an impediment in the meaningful talks," Syed Sadaqat Hussain, a spokesman of the UJC, was quoted by local dailies in Srinagar on Wednesday. The UJC's new stand was lead story of most of the English and Urdu dailies in Srinagar today.




Indian should continue to be stubborn in its stand in not negotiating with the terrorists.Otherwise every tom,dick and harry with a kalashnikov and grenade will ask for talks with the GOI.




Marxist said:


> *The pre-conditions set by the UJC to sit with New Delhi are revocation of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) and Public Safety Act (PSA), *release of political detainees and curbing all kinds of human rights violations in Jammu and Kashmir. Moderate All Parties Hurriyat Conference chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq for creating conducive atmosphere for a dialogue has put the same conditions forth.



Those acts should not be revoked till the life is snuffed out of the last terrorist and peace returns to the valley.




Marxist said:


> Conspicuously, the traditional line to declare Kashmir as a dispute by India was missing in the UJC statement. "There should be no precondition like asking militants to lay down arms before entering into any parleys.



Talks only wen the militants lay down arms - as simple as that..The govt should be strong in this.

P.S: The GOI should in no circumstances be involved in talks with groups like LeT,JeM etc.Just smoke them out.

But if indigenous (now not so much!!) groups like Hizbul come to talks talk with them but only if they give up arms.
The GOI is in a position of strength now and the supoort base of the militants are at an alltime low and they know it.
Thats y these talks etc.Deal them from a position of strength.

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## Quaid-i-Azam

Lol, who trusts an Indian news agency? Certainly not me.


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## indian_musing

Now army and security forces should surgically remove doctors ****. they can't rape anyone.


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## ankur

there will not be any major result of a plebiscite.
all the kashmiris will choose independence over accession to other country, which both the countries will never accept.
& the people of jammu & ladakh will chose to remain with india rather than becoming independent or joining pakistan, while the people of northern areas will never want to join india.
so whats the use of having a plebiscite.


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## KS

Patriot said:


> Interesting...As far as independence goes..Pakistanis clearly support Kashmiris will...if they want to independent state then Pakistanis will support them regardless of Official Pakistani GOP Stance.*Independent Kashmir will of course have a lot of Pakistan's Influence* and that territory will act as a buffer between India and Pakistan.I far one support establishment of new Kashmir state comprising of both AJK and J&K.



Thats is not the accepted meaning of Independence my friend.


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## KS

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Read the survey carefully - the IaK results are skewed because support for independence in predominantly Hindu Jammu is around 1%. The support for independence in IaK proper _'is between 74% and 95%'_



So wat sir..?
According to the UN ....there can be *no bit by bit plebiscite*...

Everything is taken as whole...the whole of J&k,Azad kashmir,Northern Areas and the area occupied by China.

They all as a whole,as a single entity can become independent or join any other country...not one piece willing to remain independent,another opting to join either country.


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## KS

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Read the survey carefully - the IaK results are skewed because support for independence in predominantly Hindu Jammu is around 1&#37;. The support for independence in IaK proper _'is between 74% and 95%'_



So wat sir..?
According to the UN ....there can be *no bit by bit plebiscite*...
Everything is taken as whole...the whole of J&k,Azad kashmir,Northern Areas and the area occupied by China.

They all as a whole,as a single entity can become independent or join any other country...not one piece willing to remain independent,another opting to join either country.



sparklingway said:


> Perhaps, people of Jammu and other non-Muslim dominated areas might not be so pro-Independent, but as the survey says Muslims in the area show nearly unanimous support for Independence.
> 
> Answer this question:-
> 
> Will the people of India accept an Independent Kashmir? Will the GoI accept an Independent Kashmir? I'm not questioning Pakistani and GoP view, I'm asking opinion from your side and let's say that Kashmir decides Independence and chooses to have good extensive relations with both India and Pakistan and decides not have any armed forces of its own. Will there ever be the decision or intention to capture Kashmir again from GoI? As I said earlier, your side only, do not bring GoP or Pakistanis in your reply.



No...After this much blood shed ,3 wars fought,so many brave sons lost will it not be self defeating to give away Kashmir..?
Will not those matryrs blood go in vain..?
*And most importantly giving freedom to Kashmir will fuel many more demands from many regions as India is a multi-cultural,multi-ethnic society.*
It is this trend that GOI fears and rightly so.
And frankly an *Independent Kashmir is not possible sandwiched between 3 nuclear powers - India,Pak and China.*
It will result only in a game being played like the one in Afghanistan with the Kashmiris once again paying in blood.



Tiger Awan said:


> Well said.
> 
> So in order to ensure peace you can go to any extent. You will even give your home to ensure peace??????
> This is not the solution. If we today agree to give Kashmir to india (to ensure peace  ) t*omorrow she will demand Gilgit-Baldistan *(and so on). There is no way to satisfy indian hunger.



For ur kind information India already claims ur entire P-O-K, and northern areas as our own terrirtory under the illegal occupation by Pakistan.
But for the *sake of peace we r ready to convert the LOC into IB* meaning P-O-K,Northern Areas (GB) become Pakistani areas like Punjab,NWFP and J&K becomes Indian state with article 370 repealed.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Karthic Sri said:


> So wat sir..?
> According to the UN ....there can be *no bit by bit plebiscite*...
> 
> Everything is taken as whole...the whole of J&k,Azad kashmir,Northern Areas and the area occupied by China.
> 
> They all as a whole,as a single entity can become independent or join any other country...not one piece willing to remain independent,another opting to join either country.


The UNSC would not argue against a decision by both India and Pakistan to adjust the manner of holding the plebiscite from one single one to multiple ones.

It would likely issue a new resolution overruling the previous ones and delineating the process of dispute resolution in this manner.


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## Skeptic

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The UNSC would not argue against a decision by both India and Pakistan to adjust the manner of holding the plebiscite from one single one to multiple ones.
> 
> It would likely issue a new resolution overruling the previous ones and delineating the process of dispute resolution in this manner.



So I hope in the forthcoming talks amendment in UNSC Resolution to include "Independent Kashmir" will be proposed by Pakistan. It will be an entirely new discussion because this has never ever even fleetingly suggested by GoP.

BTW has anyone thought about a scenario when more than two options are provided, there might not even be a clear decision (As indicated by the Poll in question / earlier polls). Lets say 45% opt for Independence and remaining 55% are distributed between India and Pakistan, the position will still remain as obscure, because even Independence would be against the wishes of 55% of Population. 

What happens to the Kashmiri vews then??

Anyways, I am surprised at the number of times UNSC resolutions are sighted by Pakistani members, when Both Pakistan and India have already violated its terms several times over and demography has been permanently altered on Pakistani side.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Skeptic said:


> demography has been permanently altered on Pakistani side.



I have yet to see credible evidence of this 'massive alteration of the demographic balance' beyond the few hundred settler families sent into G-B by Zia.

---------- Post added at 03:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:51 PM ----------




Skeptic said:


> So I hope in the forthcoming talks amendment in UNSC Resolution to include "Independent Kashmir" will be proposed by Pakistan. It will be an entirely new discussion because this has never ever even fleetingly suggested by GoP.


That would depend upon whether India agreed to such a change, along with Pakistan.


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## ramu

*Just 2% of people in J&K want to join Pak: Survey*

NEW DELHI: For those who still think a plebiscite will tilt the status of Kashmir and that most Kashmiris yearn to wave the Pakistani green, there are now numbers for the first time to contradict these claims. 

A survey carried out across both Jammu and Kashmir and ***************** Kashmir, that its author claims is the first ever of its kind, shows that only 2% of the respondents on the Indian side favour joining Pakistan and most such views were confined to Srinagar and Budgam districts. In six of the districts surveyed late last year by researchers from the London-based thinktank Chatham House, not a single person favoured annexation with Pakistan, a notion that remains the bedrock for the hardline separate campaign in Kashmir. 

However, the study by Robert Bradrock, a scholar from London's Kings College, that involved interviewing 3,774 people in both parts of Kashmir in September-October 2009 showed that 44% of people on the Pakistani side favoured independence, compared to 43% in Indian Kashmir. 

Bradrock says in the 37-page report on the survey that this would put an end for all times to come to the plebiscite route as a possible way to resolve Kashmir, since the only two options envisaged under the UN resolutions proposing plebiscite in 1948/49 were for the whole of Kashmir to join either India or Pakistan; azadi was not an option. But in the Valley, the mood for azadi still remained strong, with 75%-95% respondents favouring that as a final resolution. 

The poll showed no support either for joint sovereignty or for maintaining status quo. However, more than 58% of those surveyed were prepared to accept the Line of Control as a permanent border if it could be liberalized for greater people-to-people contact and trade. Only 8% voted against making the LoC a permanent boundary, with the highest level of opposition in Anantnag district, the report said. 

Few people in Kashmir, compared to many more in ***, believed that violence was likely to resolve the Kashmir issue. 

In J&K, only 20% thought that militant violence would help solve the problem, compared to nearly 40% who thought it was coming in the way of a resolution. In ***, 37% of those surveyed held the view that violence was a possible route to resolution. 

That both the state legislative elections in 2008 and the Lok Sabha elections in 2009 had helped bring about a change in mindsets was seen in the increasingly high turnouts that Kashmir has posted in recent years. 

The survey too demonstrated that trend, with more than half the respondents saying the elections had improved chances for peace. 

"The results aren't surprising at all. I feel they re-emphasize the need to look beyond traditional positions and evaluate the contours of a solution grounded in today's realities," said Sajjad Lone, a former ally of the Hurriyat who unsuccessfully contested the 2009 election. 

Peoples Democratic Party chief spokesman Naeem Akhtar said the azadi aspirations must be factored into any solution. 

"It can't be wished away and has to be configured into the future strategy on Kashmir. We've always been pleading to provide an alternative to the azadi sentiment."

Source : Just 2% of people in J&K want to join Pak: Survey - India - The Times of India

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

ramu said:


> *Just 2% of people in J&K want to join Pak: Survey*


But likely still no guts to hold a plebiscite


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## Skeptic

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I have yet to see credible evidence of this 'massive alteration of the demographic balance' beyond the few hundred settler families sent into G-B by Zia.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:51 PM ----------



They have been provided several times just that you choose to look past just as you did on all the other points. Alteration has actually not only been on Pakistani side, it has been on Indian side as well with Lakhs of Kashmiri Pundits thrown out of their native place and now dispersed across India.



> That would depend upon whether India agreed to such a change, along with Pakistan.


Yeah but atleast make an official suggestion first. Why not take an initiative to show they actually are willing to walk the talk. India and Indians have never been pro independence, it is the moral high ground taken by Pakistani in debates such as these. During talks reality has been different.

What Happens in there are no clear winners from this??
What about violation of terms of UNSC resolution several times over??

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## Skeptic

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> But likely still no guts to hold a plebiscite



It is not a question of winning the contest. Its a stand taken with consideration of prevailing scenarios, which do not justify any such elections to be organized. UNSC Resolution are from Dinosaur era, clinging onto them would take us nowhere.

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## Awesome

Kashmir has to be made independent. It is the best solution - even Pakistan will support that if it's tabled.


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## ramu

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> But likely still no guts to hold a plebiscite



AM, what is the use of plebiscite whose results if unfavourable to a party wont be accepted fair?


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## Skeptic

Asim Aquil said:


> Kashmir has to be made independent. It is the best solution - even Pakistan will support that if it's tabled.



Yeah sounds good does it not??

Show one Instance where Pakistan tried to table it. I am not talking about interviews and rallies but in talks where it actually counts. We have heard about the treatment of Pro-independence in Pakistani Kashmir.

Just reminds me I asked you to explain one of your posts you never did.


> Asim Aquil said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan has always pushed for plebiscite, not simple integration. *The rules of the plebiscite always clearly state that they may join India, Pakistan or choose Independence*. So we're quite open to the idea of a Kashmiri independence.
Click to expand...

HOW??

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

ramu said:


> AM, what is the use of plebiscite whose results if unfavourable to a party wont be accepted fair?



Why won't they be accepted as fair if the plebiscite is held transparently and by the UN, with monitors from both sides and the international community, and a withdrawal of the majority of security forces from the region in question, replaced by UN peacekeepers.


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## ramu

Asim Aquil said:


> Kashmir has to be made independent. It is the best solution - even Pakistan will support that if it's tabled.



Pakistan has shown no such commitment and on the contrary made the independence of Kashmir almost impossible by gifting a large chunk of landmass to China. *Actions speak louder than words.
*

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Skeptic said:


> They have been provided several times just that you choose to look past just as you did on all the other points. Alteration has actually not only been on Pakistani side, it has been on Indian side as well with Lakhs of Kashmiri Pundits thrown out of their native place and now dispersed across India.


No evidence has not been provided. The only thing I have seen is opinions that XYZ has occurred, without any actual evidence backing up that opinion.


> Yeah but atleast make an official suggestion first. Why not take an initiative to show they actually are willing to walk the talk. India and Indians have never been pro independence, it is the moral high ground taken by Pakistani in debates such as these. During talks reality has been different.


How can Pakistan voice a change in the UNSC resolutions when India wants nothing to do with them?

Joint control, demilitarization and autonomy just under independence are ideas that Pakistan has put forward.


> What Happens in there are no clear winners from this??
> What about violation of terms of UNSC resolution several times over??


'No clear winners would have to be taken into account' - are we looking for a majority to make a decision, and a runoff between the two highest vote getters in the second round, or multiple rounds of plebiscite until a majority occurs, or the option for independence gets dropped etc. There are options that can be explored.

The violations have occurred from both sides, but moving forward, especially if a different approach has to be taken and new resolutions passed, past violations are irrelevant to dispute resolution so long as both parties commit to the conditions agreed to in the present/future.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

ramu said:


> Pakistan has shown no such commitment and on the contrary made the independence of Kashmir almost impossible by gifting a large chunk of landmass to China. *Actions speak louder than words.
> *



That uninhabited and barren chunk of land does nothing to make Kashmiri independence feasible or unfeasible - it wasn't some access to the ocean or the worlds largest gas reserves that were present there.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The point about the areas being uninhabited is that they would not impact the result of a plebiscite.



But the area's ownership will depend on the result of the hypothetical plebiscite. Also if there are even a small number of people there, shouldnt they also vote in that plebiscite? Is that a practicality today?


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> GB have not been integrated into Pakistan because they are considered part of disputed territory under the UNSC resolutions. The area adjusted with China was uninhabited and largely barren at the time, and its future status is also subject to negotiations between China and the nation that the Kashmiris choose to join once a plebiscite occurs.



If that was a gift from Pakistan to China, isnt Pakistan liable to ensure the status quo at the time of 1947 Aug is restored before any talk of the so called choice.? Also what if Kashmiris do not want to join either of India or Pakistan?

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## Skeptic

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No evidence has not been provided. The only thing I have seen is opinions that XYZ has occurred, without any actual evidence backing up that opinion.



Are you seriously asking for proof of Kashmiri Pundits being thrown out of Valley.


> How can Pakistan voice a change in the UNSC resolutions when India wants nothing to do with them?


How do you know India wants to do nothing with them unless you voice the changes? How do we believe that GoP is actually serious about Independence option when it is afraid to even voice it in any significant platform.



> Joint control, demilitarization and autonomy just under independence are ideas that Pakistan has put forward.


Yeah and India agreed on very many, but your domestic power struggle let everything offtrack.


> 'No clear winners would have to be taken into account' - are we looking for a majority to make a decision, and a runoff between the two highest vote getters in the second round, or multiple rounds of plebiscite until a majority occurs, or the option for independence gets dropped etc. There are options that can be explored.


Yeah since it is such a grave matter, decesion should be supported by a significant majority. Even to make a change in constitution we generally require 2/3rd majority (75%). What do you propose since this is a Pakistani idea.



> The violations have occurred from both sides, but moving forward, especially if a different approach has to be taken and new resolutions passed, past violations are irrelevant to dispute resolution so long as both parties commit to the conditions agreed to in the present/future.


Condition are impossible to be met. 
So we agree that UNSC are redundant and we need to look at the matter completely afresh.

Thanks!!

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## mehru

Tiger Awan said:


> Well said.
> 
> So in order to ensure peace you can go to any extent. You will even give your home to ensure peace??????
> 
> This is not the solution. If we today agree to give Kashmir to india (to ensure peace  ) tomorrow she will demand Gilgit-Baldistan (and so on). There is no way to satisfy indian hunger.



You misunderstood me. I am asking for compromise on both sides. We are not going to lose any area and neither will India. As for Kashmir, a bigger part of it is already under Indian control so how the hell we are gifting them anything? By accepting LOC, India will be in no position to claim our areas of Kashmir and Gilgit-Biltistan. In this way we will not pay a heavy price for peace and neither will India.
PS. I am not in favour of Independent Kashmir. First, it's not possible and secondly no Pakistani will want to lose the small part of Kashmir + Gilgit Biltistan that we have.

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## ramu

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That uninhabited and barren chunk of land does nothing to make Kashmiri independence feasible or unfeasible - it wasn't some access to the ocean or the worlds largest gas reserves that were present there.





Is Pakistan to decide the destiny of the "barren land"? This is such a colonialist approach to a territory that has nothing to do with China. This very approach costed Pakistan its east. Lessons are lost but that lesson is something you can afford to forget. All the fart about Kashmiris deciding their destination goes for a toss if Kashmir is viewed in terms of real estate value. India does not have to protect Siachen is it thinks it is uninhabitable land. Indians take pride in Kashmir being a part of India. India will fight for every inch of Kashmir, irrespective of the artificial classification

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## ejaz007

*Canada denies visa to ex-Indian army officer for IHK abuses*

NEW DELHI: Just days after Canada refused visa to a retired Indian trooper of Border Security Force (BSF) on charges of involvement in human rights violations in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK), one more incident of a denial of visa to a retired Lieutenant General of the Indian army by the Canadian Home Office on the same grounds has come to light. 

A retired Lieutenant General of the Indian army, AS Bahia, who served as a member of the Defence Appellate Tribunal, told the media that the Canadian Home Office refused to grant him a visa because he had served in the sensitive location of IHK and his unit, the Rashtriya Rifles (RR), was involved in human rights violations in IHK. 

The issue first came to light when the Canadian High Commission denied visa last week to a retired Border Security Force (BSF) trooper Fateh Singh Pandher on grounds that he was associated with a notoriously violent force that indulged in human rights violations in IHK. Canada has denied visas to a member of the Indian Armed Forces Tribunal, three serving Brigadiers, a retired Lieutenant General and a former senior IB official on the grounds that their organisations have been engaging in violence. In another revelation, two Brigadiers were denied visas in 2008 and another in 2009. A retired Lieutenant General RN Bhatia was also refused visa in 2008. 

Separately, India said on Thursday it had summoned Canadas high commissioner and lodged a strong protest after several officials linked with its security establishment were denied Canadian visas.

The visa rejections, on grounds of human rights records, came to light just weeks before Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is to travel to Toronto for a G20 meeting. Indian Foreign Minister SM Krishna expressed hope that Ottawa would solve the issue appropriately. iftikhar gilani/agencies

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## billi

Azad Kashmir said:


> Yawn. This is a Kashmiri thread not a Bangladeshi one, lets not forget the Partition Massacres, but that would dereail thread. Stick to the topic.



yeah, muslims killed sikhs and hindus


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## ejaz007

billi said:


> yeah, muslims killed sikhs and hindus



He just landed from mars so is not aware of the facts. Give him some time to live on earth and he shall find out the facts.


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## IndianArmy

What kind of a Thread is this??Indian army atrocities and massacres???


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## ejaz007

IndianArmy said:


> What kind of a Thread is this??Indian army atrocities and massacres???



This is a thread where attrocities committed by Indian army and security forces in IHK are posted. These could be in the form of news reports, reports prepared by human rights groups and personal experiences.


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## IndianArmy

ejaz007 said:


> This is a thread where attrocities committed by Indian army and security forces in IHK are posted. These could be in the form of news reports, reports prepared by human rights groups and personal experiences.



Oh Please carry on this Noble work....

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## Jade

Asim Aquil said:


> Kashmir has to be made independent. It is the best solution - even Pakistan will support that if it's tabled.



I really wonder how some Pakistani Forum members are for Independence 

First, there is no provision for Independence in UN resolution neither do India or Pakistan has any official say on Independence of Kashmir, moreover under no circumstances is the UN resolution going to be renegotiated to include the provision for Independence, neither will India ever...ever go to UN on Kashmir

Second, I feel more than Kashmir, the water issue is of prime importance to Pakistan. If Kashmir were to become Independent, I am sure Kashmir would use all the waters that are flowing in Kashmir for its economic development leaving almost nothing to Pakistan. 

Third, there is always a question of sustainability of landlocked independent Kashmir as a nation. It will be burden on all the neighboring countries 

Fourth, I am certain just like Afghanistan an independent Kashmir is going be a playground for India, Pakistan, China and US for power projection. This is nothing but more bloodshed for Kashmiris and no reprieve

Fifth, there are certain pre conditions attached for plebiscite. One of the main precondition is return to Kashmir of 1947, however with three nations: India, Pakistan and China administering their respective parts of Kashmir, the situation is simply complex 

Lastly, with acute polarization of people based on the regions there is every chance that independent Kashmir will either go Czechoslovakia way or have more civil unrest and more blood bath.

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## Jazzbot

IndianArmy said:


> Oh Please carry on this Noble work....



Instead of talking about those thousands of reports and articles you all indians are trying to post trolls all the way in these 8 pages so far. This shows clearly that you guyz are not able to answer or perhaps trying to find some way out..


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## IndianArmy

jazzy_superior said:


> Instead of talking about those thousands of reports and articles you all indians are trying to post trolls all the way in these 8 pages so far. This shows clearly that you guyz are not able to answer or perhaps trying to find some way out..



In what way did I troll??? And I would defenetly give you answers, But I have Few questions for which non of You can get me a reasonable answer, So Iam not interested In The threads where People Try to Spoil others Integrity to cover there Mistakes and Divert the attention some where else, isnt That what You are doing???

Indian Army is Killing kashmiris which you call freedom fighters and we know them as terrorists as they are training with Banned organizations Like al Queda, LET etc.... If You call them freedom fighter and Innocent then Yeah Indian Army is doing atrocities


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## ejaz007

IndianArmy said:


> Oh Please carry on this Noble work....



We are carrying on and appreciate your support.


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## Quaid-i-Azam

No independent Kashmir. If this happens India will push them around and then Pakistan will have to defend them and this whole trouble will start again.


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## Emperor Palpatine

Atleast Indian army never did any ethnicity based killings...even talking about that gets you banned here


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## humblehobbes

For all ye ignorant ppl, the user Indian Army , is a retired Indian Army Personnel. So kindly give the proper respect when dealing with him

http://www.defence.pk/forums/members/indianarmy.html


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## IndianArmy

humblehobbes said:


> For all ye ignorant ppl, the user Indian Army , is a retired Indian Army Personnel. So kindly give the proper *respect *when dealing with him



I am here to earn it not snatch it Dear..... Everyone likes me, Atleast most of them do, or Some would I guess... Anyone??


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## yashchauhan

jazzy_superior said:


> Instead of talking about those thousands of reports and articles you all indians are trying to post trolls all the way in these 8 pages so far. This shows clearly that you guyz are not able to answer or perhaps trying to find some way out..



soldiers and doctors are butchers....this applies to every nation and class...look what US army did in Iraq and Afganistan...Guantanamoo and Abu Gharib....and no society is completely violent or brutal...be it Pakistani or Indian....


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## Jade

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> But likely still no guts to hold a plebiscite




It has nothing to do with guts but with the consequences


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## noksss

ejaz007 said:


> This is a thread where attrocities committed by Indian army and security forces in IHK are posted. These could be in the form of news reports, reports prepared by human rights groups and personal experiences.




Despite of all that only 2% of kashmiri's is willing to join pakistan 
and If u are more concerned about the rape and crime against the muslim women in Kashmir Where have u hidden ur A$$ when American army raped 100's of Iraqi muslim women


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## hal-fgfa

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Chinese Muslims are not on internationally recognized disputed territory or a conflict that Pakistan is a party to - completely off topic.



why pakistan is completely of topic ?????

u cry on muslims in GAZA ............ u cry on muslim situation in INDIA 

*and u dont have daring to talk about muslims in china??? *
great ...we can expect only this from u ...

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## Emperor Palpatine

hal-fgfa said:


> why pakistan is completely of topic ?????
> 
> u cry on muslims in GAZA ............ u cry on muslim situation in INDIA
> 
> *and u dont have daring to talk about muslims in china??? *
> great ...we can expect only this form u ...



Ever heard of a phrase "looking in the telescope thorugh the blind eye"

I

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## BJlaowai

Pakistan has relenquished all rights to demand implementation of 1948 UN resolutions for Kashmir Plebicite after initiating operation Gibrater in 1965 to force a military resolution in its favor. After 1965 they have tried every trick in the book to snatch Kashmir, but failed in all counts. After everything else they tried has failed, now they want to go back to 62 years old UN resolutions. Why should India oblige them now?

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## Contrarian

Why are we discussing compromise. It is India's clear position that we are willing to accept LoC as IB.

Nothing more needs to be given or taken. India is dominant in all positions regarding Kashmir. Right from military,to economy, to international opinion. Everything is going India's way since the 90 onwards. Pakistan can not take Kashmir in any manner via force or influence, and their government has increasingly started recognizing that 2000 onwards.

If its taken 60 years to reduce the kashmiri opinion of joining Pak by 10&#37;, then spend another 60 years and reduce it by 20% more. 

Its just a question of the valley. Ladakh and Jammu would join India in any case-plebiscite or not.

If its Pakistan's wish that relations cannot move forward without discussing the 'core problem' then so be it. Let them not move forward. India will.

20 years down the line, when India has progressed massively in Economy and Military, the same thing will be repeated and other countries including Pakistan will have further mellowed down regarding Kashmir as they have now over the years.

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## KS

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The UNSC would not argue against a decision by both India and Pakistan to adjust the manner of holding the plebiscite from one single one to multiple ones.
> 
> It would likely issue a new resolution overruling the previous ones and delineating the process of dispute resolution in this manner.



So now Pakistan is moving from plebiscite under *"existing"* UN resolutions knowing that there is no possibility of ascension of J&K as a whole to Pakistan to plebiscite under *"Future"* UN resolutions where atleast it would get a chunk of Jammu n Kashmir namely the Valley..?

Under Nehru we already once burnt our fingers by going to UN which in those days we could have easily solved militarily.
Never ever will we be doing that same mistake again.


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## Ali.009

Survey conducted by join collaboration of RAW and CIA? Such people conducting these surverys should be thrown into jail


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## Prometheus

Jammu: The Jammu and Kashmir government has revoked the detention orders of 25 Pakistani militants lodged in different jails of India to facilitate their return to their country. 

The state government acted late Thursday night on the advice of the Home Ministry, which asked that the militants be released. 

"Their detention orders under the Public Safety Act (a law that allows the government to keep people in jail without trial for two years) have been revoked and they would be sent to Wagah in Punjab for their return to Pakistan," an official told reporters on condition of anonymity. 

The process for their release was initiated about two months ago after their detention came under sharp criticism from human rights groups. 

The militants were also given consular access at Amritsar, government sources told reporter. 

"This is nothing new. It has happened in the past, too," a source said. 

All 25 Pakistani militants, who would be handed over to Pakistan authorities at Wagah Friday, were arrested over the years from Jammu and Kashmir. 

Some of them were involved in acts of terror, the sources said, but did not specify the exact nature of crime committed by them. 

Some of them were lodged in jails outside Jammu and Kashmir for security reasonsJ&K govt to set free 25 Pakistani militants


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## sparklingway

Ali.009 said:


> Survey conducted by join collaboration of RAW and CIA? Such people conducting these surverys should be thrown into jail



People responding with single sentence all-encompassing statements labeling everything as propaganda should not have the right to post.

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## srsrsr

sparklingway said:


> Will the people of India accept an Independent Kashmir?



>>>>>Yes, very much. My interactions with general public/students/educated folks clearly show that people are tired of this Kashmir problem and its becoming drain in country resources. 
a) People want to focus on the growth issues rather than Kashmir. 
b) Given the constant 'moral' & 'terrorist' support from Pakistan (pls dont debate on this, as this is the Indian view of things)many dont think 'Kashmiris' are as much 'Indian' as Punjabi, Bengali, Marathi etc 
c) Most folks, only know the current issue of terrorism, and are unware of the root causes or the history of the issue. As time passes by, we see Kashmir getting more alienated from rest of country 



sparklingway said:


> Will the GoI accept an Independent Kashmir?



>>>a big NO. If and only if a party which truly cares about country, its people and its progress would agree for a Ind Kashmir, with risk of loosing the power. But we all know that no such party exists and all are so crooked to retain their seats for 5 years.


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## sab

pak-yes said:


> Anything that must be done must according to the wishes of Kashmiri people.If they want Independence then that should not be a problem to Pakistan.


Actually that will be a problem for India, Pakistan both. A land-locked country not self-sufficient would be a liability for the neighbours. You can have moral support for independence of Kasmir now but when you see that tax from your hard-earned money is going to feed people of land which is not yours...your opinion may not be the same.....


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## srsrsr

Quaid-i-Azam said:


> No independent Kashmir. If this happens India will push them around and then Pakistan will have to defend them and this whole trouble will start again.



Why would India do that? Frankly, India isn't as much obsessed with Kashmir, as I see Pakistan is.


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## footmarks

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That uninhabited and barren chunk of land does nothing to make Kashmiri independence feasible or unfeasible - it wasn't some access to the ocean or the worlds largest gas reserves that were present there.



The question is - how can pak "gift" the land to China which does not belong to Pak? 
Like, how would you respond if India decide to Gift some "barren & uninhabited" part of our side of Kashmir to Israel, for example? considering that you dont subscribe to the fact that Kashmir belong to India ?

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## billi

noksss said:


> Despite of all that only 2% of kashmiri's is willing to join pakistan
> and If u are more concerned about the rape and crime against the muslim women in Kashmir Where have u hidden ur A$$ when American army raped 100's of Iraqi muslim women



indian army does not do all these rape shape. It is all done by terrorists and LeT and the mullahs that come from pak. It is a proven fact.


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## rajput12

yes we should do away with article 370 
we should do the same as Chinese are doing in china i.e settling Hun Chinese in non Hun dominated areas we should start with bringing the Kashmiri pundits back to change the demography and scale it up to at least 50:50


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## Imran Khan

peace talks with open mind


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## Speaker

rajput12 said:


> yes we should do away with article 370
> we should do the same as Chinese are doing in china i.e settling Hun Chinese in non Hun dominated areas we should start with bringing the Kashmiri pundits back to change the demography and scale it up to at least 50:50



Article 370 is not the reason Kashmiri Pandits are discriminated against - it is the terrorists. In fact Kashmiri Muslims consider them as rightful owners of their land as well. Omar Abdullah promises to make efforts to re-settle Kashmiri Pandits in the valley. All these things do seem encouraging. But it is not the same as repealing article 370. To do that, we need to first make the locals feel part of mainstream India - politically, socially and economically and then think about it.


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## footmarks

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> the best way to fight insurgency in Kashmir ... Allow the Kashmiris to exercise their right to self-determination as agreed to in the UNSC resolutions.



Ya, just like pak govt did by "gifting" part of Kashmir to China.


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## dabong1

A survey which a British academic says is the first systematic attempt to establish the opinions of Kashmiris has produced "striking results".

Robert Bradnock interviewed more than 3,700 people in Indian- and Pakistani-administered Kashmir to assess their views on various issues.

One of the key questions put to respondents was how they saw the future of the territory.

Nearly half of those interviewed said they wanted independence.

Another question asked for their views over the continuing insurgency.

Dr Bradnock - an associate fellow at the Chatham House think-tank in London - says that the survey has produced startling conclusions, especially in relation to the future of the territory.
No 'simple fixes'

It revealed that on average 44% of people in Pakistani-administered Kashmir favoured independence, compared with 43% in Indian-administered Kashmir.

"However while this is the most popular option overall, it fails to carry an overall majority on either side.

"In fact on the Indian side of the Line of Control [LoC] - which separates the two regions - opinions are heavily polarised," Dr Bradnock told the BBC.
Journalists take cover during a clash in Srinagar (file photo) The Kashmir insurgency has raged for 20 years

The survey found that the "overwhelming majority" of people want a solution to the dispute, even though there are no "simple fixes".

Dr Bradnock said that in the Kashmir valley - the mainly Muslim area at the centre of the insurgency - support for independence is between 74% and 95%.

But in the predominantly Hindu Jammu division to the south, support is under 1%.

Other findings include:

* 80% of Kashmiris on both sides of the LoC say that the dispute is important to them personally
* Concern over human rights abuses stands at 43% on the Indian side and 19% on the Pakistani side
* Concern over unemployment is strong across the territory - 66% on the Pakistani side and 87% on the Indian side
* Few are optimistic over peace talks - only 27% on the Pakistani side and 57% on the Indian side thought they would succeed.

Dr Bradnock said that it was "clear" that a plebiscite on the future of Kashmir - along the lines envisaged in UN resolutions of 1948-49 - is "extremely unlikely to offer a solution today".

"The results of the polls show that that there is no single proposition for the future of Kashmir which could be put to the population... and get majority support," he said.

"The poll offers no simple fixes but offers signposts - through which the political process, engaging India, Pakistan and wider Kashmiri representation - could move it towards resolution." 

BBC News - 'First' Kashmir survey produces 'startling' results


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## dabong1

SRINAGAR - The human-rights body Amnesty International (AI) has yet to release its report on the outcome of its unprecedented visit last week to disputed Indian-administered Kashmir, but already there are doubts over its ability to come up with fair and accurate findings.

A two-member AI delegation - composed of Indian nationals - arrived in Kashmir on May 18 for a six-day fact-finding visit. It is expected to release its findings within the next six months.

*Hardline separatist groups in Kashmir have described the AI visit as insignificant, saying the AI team, being both Indians, could not be considered neutral observers.

"Both the team members were Indian nationals. Therefore, it is
very natural that their observations and judgments would be clouded by their national interests," said separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who heads the hardline faction of Hurriyat (Freedom) Conference, a conglomerate of Kashmiri separatist groups.*

Still, Geelani met with the visiting team to give his own assessment of the human-rights situation in Kashmir, home to nine million people, a majority of them Muslims.

"Kashmiri people are the victims of state terrorism. Every day we see people getting killed, tortured and sentenced to death. Women are raped and murdered while school going boys are not even spared," Geelani told Inter Press Service (IPS).

"Human-rights groups like Amnesty International should put pressure on India to stop unleashing atrocities on Kashmiris and give them the right to self-determination."

Bikram J Batra, head of the two-member AI team, said separatist leaders like Geelani should not "prejudge" their visit. "Let them wait for our assessment and see what comes out of it," he told IPS at the conclusion of their visit. "We are here as the representatives of AI and not as citizens of India."

Batra added that the state holds significance for the New York-based human-rights lobby, "which is why we have been striving to visit Kashmir".

*Until last week, India's federal government had never allowed any international human-rights group, let alone AI, to visit Kashmir and assess the human-rights situation in the strife-torn region, where armed rebellion against India has been going on since 1989.*

In the past two years, street protests have gradually replaced the armed struggle against Indian rule in Kashmir, prompting the government to finally allow the much-awaited visit from AI. However, gunfire incidents involving militants and Indian troops are still reported from some parts of Kashmir.

Stone pelting has also emerged as a form of revolt against the government.

Separatist as well as local human-rights groups in Kashmir had been repeatedly demanding that international human-rights groups be allowed to visit Kashmir to look into the issue of human-rights violations in the disputed territory involving India and Pakistan.

AI had time and again voiced its concern on the spate of human-rights violations in Kashmir, which had been widely blamed on the Indian security forces as well as militants operating in Kashmir.

*Notwithstanding Batra's assurances of a fair and objective assessment of the situation in Kashmir, Sheikh Showkat Hussian of Kashmir University said AI should have sent a team belonging neither to India nor Pakistan.

"There is a likelihood that citizens of either of these countries will interpret the facts the way they wish before making them public," Hussain, who teaches international law and human rights, told IPS.*

The AI team met with local human-rights groups and pro-India political leaders, including the chief minister Omar Abdullah and opposition leader Mehbooba Mufti.

They also sat down with Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, chairman of the moderate faction of Hurriyat Conference, as well as the wife of Shabir Ahmad Shah, a prominent separatist leader currently under detention.

"I briefed the AI team about Shabir's repeated detention, which is the worst form of political vendetta," Shah's wife Bilqees Shah told IPS after meeting with the AI team. "Despite his various ailments, he has been booked in jail under the Public Safety Act (PSA) for as many as seven times in the last two years."

*Under the PSA, which came into force in Kashmir in 1978, a person can be detained for two years without any trial when the government deems him a threat to public security.*

With street protests and stone pelting emerging as the newest forms of revolt against Indian administration, many young boys have been sent to prison under the PSA for throwing stones at security forces.

"We are particularly focusing on preventive and arbitrary detentions not only of political leaders but also of ordinary civilians like those said to be guilty of stone pelting," AI's Batra said.

Unlike Geelani, Hurriyat's Farooq welcomed AI's visit, saying he expected it to report accurately on what it had observed in Kashmir.

"We hope that the team would report the real situation to the international community and impress on it the need to build pressure on India to bridle the atrocities of its security forces against hapless Kashmiris," Mirwaiz told IPS.

Kashmiri separatists have demanded the scrapping of the special powers enjoyed - and abused, according to Kashmiri separatists - by Indian troops under the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, withdrawal of troops from civilian areas and release of political prisoners before talks can be held among the three stakeholders - India, Pakistan and the Kashmir - to resolve the dispute over the region.

Kashmiri separatist leaders recently rejected a fresh offer of talks by Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, saying the government had not accepted their conditions for a dialogue.

Since the end of British rule over the Indian subcontinent in 1947 and the region's partition into the two sovereign states, namely, India and Pakistan, Kashmir has been the subject of a bitter territorial dispute between the two South Asian neighbors.

Presently, a third of the region is administered by Pakistan and the rest by India. The armed struggle among Kashmiris on the Indian side has resulted in more than 50,000 deaths, based on official estimates.

The government of India maintains that the rebellion is backed and funded by Pakistan, which the latter denies.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/LE28Df02.htm


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## dabong1

k_n said:


> Do you know how many Punchhi and Kashmiri refugees live in Jammu



"only a trickle"


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## Omar1984

As long as you are from Kashmir you are a Kashmiri and Azad Kashmir is Kashmir.


Every province of Pakistan has different kinds of people. Its like saying only Jatts are Punjabis and Syyeds are not Punjabis.


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## PakSher

I am half Kashmiri, my mom is from Kashmir.


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## Awesome

I have Kashmiri lineage, I strongly support Kashmir's right of self-determination. I consider myself first and foremost a Pakistani!


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## Realist

Omar1984 said:


> As long as you are from Kashmir you are a Kashmiri and Azad Kashmir is Kashmir.
> .



By that definition i am a Kashmiri.

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## Omar1984

I know a Kashmiri family here in U.S. Their grandparents migrated from India Occupied Kashmir to Lahore after partition. They are very patriotic Pakistanis and yes they can still speak the Kashmiri language and teach their children the language too but they are more fluent in Urdu like most Pakistanis.


There are many Kashmiris living in Lahore. Khawaja and Butt are famous Kashmiri surnames and those surnames are very common in Lahore and other parts of Pakistan.

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## psychedelic_renegade

> i have met a decent amount of Kashmiri and most feel they have nothing in common with Indians infact many have shown a deep hatred for anything Indian. Some of my own family who are born in Srinigar in a place called Nowhatta love Pakistan with a passion but don't want to leave their ancestoral home and although they have a great resentment for India and Indians* in general most love the muslims that reside in that country extremely passionately.*



So you mean their hatred to India has more to do with religion than any other thing! Sorry, couldn't be sympathetic or respectful towards your friends in Srinagar.

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## S-A-B-E-R->

hey i was born in mir pur does that counts


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## bc040400065

*Thousands protest "staged" killings in Kashmir*

* (Reuters) - At least 28 people were hurt in Indian Kashmir on Saturday when police fired teargas shells at thousands of demonstrators protesting the killing of three villagers in an alleged fake gun battle by security forces, witnesses said.*


The *fresh "staged" killings could trigger widespread protests *across the Muslim-majority region where rebel violence is waning but *anti-Indian sentiment still runs deep.*

*Late last month, army said its soldiers killed three Muslim militants while trying to cross over to Indian Kashmir from Pakistani side on Line of Control, a military control line that divides the disputed region between two nuclear armed rivals.*
*But three families in north Kashmir's Baramulla area said the slain men were innocent relatives who had gone missing days before the border clash.*
Authorities in Kashmir on Friday ordered a probe and into the killings and also exhumed the three bodies, which were found to be those of the missing men, an official said.

"Army has already ordered a high level internal enquiry into the incident to bare the facts transparently and to bring to book anybody if found guilty," chief minister of Jammu and Kashmir, Omar Abdullah, said in a statement.

*"Allah-hu-Akbar (God is great), down with Indian forces,"* the protesters shouted, as they marched with the bodies of slain men in Baramulla, 50 km (31 miles) north of Srinagar, Kashmir's summer capital.

*Government forces in the revolt-torn Himalayan state in the past have been accused of murdering innocent civilians in staged gun battles and passing them off as separatist militants to earn rewards and promotions.*
Officials say more than *47,000 *people have been killed after a revolt *against Indian rule *broke out in 1989. *Human rights groups put the toll at about 60,000.*




Thousands protest staged killings in Kashmir | Reuters

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## pak-yes

> Late last month, army said its soldiers killed three Muslim militants while trying to cross over to Indian Kashmir from Pakistani side on Line of Control, a military control line that divides the disputed region between two nuclear armed rivals.
> But three families in north Kashmir's Baramulla area said the slain men were innocent relatives who had gone missing days before the border clash.



Are these the infiltrators that IA proudly kills.For their Personal glory and promotions.


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## bc040400065

pak-yes said:


> Are these the infiltrators that IA proudly kills.For their Personal glory and promotions.



yes i would like to ask the same questions to some of the Indian members here... specialy when they say that we pakistanis are not sincere to kashmiris and all those indian media stories are told about AJK "not" free. Then what about this ... Killings of inocent kashmiris just to blame pakistan for Cross border terrorism and get promotions...


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## KS

Always hate hate hate.....

Why dont u discuss abt this..?

25-pak-militants-freed-sent-back-to-home

No Army in the world,especially in insurgency prone areas are free from this fake encounters......


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## IndianArmy

Fake Encounters , Are Not actually Encounters which are created for the Purpose of rivalry nor anything personal.... 

This is the birth of Such Encounters, Separatists have the habit of hiding terrorists, and Army breaks In And engages in A Battle with them Based Only on the Intelligence Inputs, Some Go wrong, which End Up as Fake Encounters, We need better Intelligence Inputs.... 

every Battalion has its own Intelligence Source, And They carry out operation without Informing the higher Officials as to keep it secret and Its not against the protocol, so The officer Leading the battalion is Solly responsible, and When Wrong , They end Up a Police enquiry and Later On deal with the Military consequences


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## Emperor Palpatine

Now this thread will turn into a big India Bashing event .... lol


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## bc040400065

Karthic Sri said:


> Always hate hate hate.....
> 
> Why dont u discuss abt this..?
> 
> 25-pak-militants-freed-sent-back-to-home
> 
> No Army in the world,especially in insurgency prone areas are free from this fake encounters......



Thats what i said to an indian members in an another thread related to kashmir... but the hate is too much that no one tries to accept the reality or accept what is wrong and unjustified. I have seen Indian members just argue for nothing. No matter what you tell them they will just reply with their hatred... and finally this was my first thread and it was just to Open some indian members eyes and just to show them that everything is not right in indian kashmir. Please don't take it as hatred or flaming post.


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## karan.1970

I am sure that the families of actual terrorists will also never submit that their relatives were really terrorists. Whether these guys who were killed were terrorists or not will be determined by an inquiry if one is ordered. THere have been enough cases of punishments handed out to defaulters in the security forces if the encounters are really fake. Till then, for me these 3 who were killed were what is claimed by the IA. 

Its foolhardy to expect IA involved in counter insurgency operations in the area to first look for proof and then engage the terrorists. The rules are simple.. If fired upon, take them out.

Are there innocents that get caught in the cross fire.. sure.. Very unfortunate but unavoidable in a COIN operation as civilians in Afghanistan and NWFP as well know to their cost..

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## bc040400065

IndianArmy said:


> Fake Encounters , Are Not actually Encounters which are created for the Purpose of rivalry nor anything personal....
> 
> This is the birth of Such Encounters, Separatists have the habit of hiding terrorists, and Army breaks In And engages in A Battle with them Based Only on the Intelligence Inputs, Some Go wrong, which End Up as Fake Encounters, We need better Intelligence Inputs....
> 
> every Battalion has its own Intelligence Source, And They carry out operation without Informing the higher Officials as to keep it secret and Its not against the protocol, so The officer Leading the battalion is Solly responsible, and When Wrong , They end Up a Police enquiry and Later On deal with the Military consequences



But sir don't you beleive all is not right in indian kashmir???? Is this fake encounters that Kashmiris deserve??? Why use of force ?? Why kill inocent people just to blame pakistan...??


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## bc040400065

karan.1970 said:


> I am sure that the families of actual terrorists will also never submit that their relatives were really terrorists. Whether these guys who were killed were terrorists or not will be determined by an inquiry if one is ordered. THere have been enough cases of punishments handed out to defaulters in the security forces if the encounters are really fake. Till then, for me these 3 who were killed were what is claimed by the IA.
> 
> Its foolhardy to expect IA involved in counter insurgency operations in the area to first look for proof and then engage the terrorists. The rules are simple.. If fired upon, take them out.
> 
> Are there innocents that get caught in the cross fire.. sure.. Very unfortunate but unavoidable in a COIN operation as civilians in Afghanistan and NWFP as well know to their cost..




I know COIN operations are destructive for the civilians... but the news is about thousands of unarmed kashmiris protesting in the streets.. so Even if they were terrorist what about those protesting in their favor???


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## abrahams

here is another link... the names of culprits are mentioned.... boils down to the fact that people will do anything for money.... ha... even kill their own brothers... be it kashmiries themselves or muslims... 

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...K-fake-encounter-case/articleshow/5988402.cms


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## zagahaga

again? lol ... kashmir belongs to pakistan if you dont want to give it let it be indipendant this will keep going on soo.... num heads


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## hal-fgfa

zagahaga said:


> again? lol ... kashmir belongs to pakistan if you dont want to give it let it be indipendant this will keep going on soo.... num heads



why??? u dont have guts to take it from india ???


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## karan.1970

bc040400065 said:


> I know COIN operations are destructive for the civilians... but the news is about thousands of unarmed kashmiris protesting in the streets.. so Even if they were terrorist what about those protesting in their favor???



The ones protesting are either right or wrong. If right, hopefully their protests will lead to an investigation resulting in punishment of defaulting officers. If wrong, they are just victims of terrorist propoganda. No impact on the sec forces' operations either way

---------- Post added at 10:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 PM ----------




zagahaga said:


> again? lol ... kashmir belongs to pakistan if you dont want to give it let it be indipendant this will keep going on soo.... num heads


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## WAQAS119

you used that picture many times before.. I think you are in love with that lady............


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## bc040400065

> Originally Posted by zagahaga
> again? lol ... kashmir belongs to pakistan if you dont want to give it let it be indipendant this will keep going on soo.... num heads





hal-fgfa said:


> why??? u dont have guts to take it from india ???



Please don't start India Pakistan war here.... Topic is about kashmiris sufferings...


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## Swift

zagahaga said:


> again? lol ... kashmir belongs to pakistan if you dont want to give it let it be indipendant this will keep going on soo.... num heads



I have a suggestion, If you think Kashmir really belongs to Pakistan what stops a mighty Pakistan Army (Note : Only Isalmic country to have Nukes, and all those missiles centuries ahead of India's and the super jets with there super pilots ) from coming to liberate it. Why bank on those poor civilians to do the job, what are you waiting for since last 7 decades?


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## WAQAS119

BTW to all indian members!!!!!!!! source is 'Reuters' not 'Bharat Rakshak' so no one can deny its credibility....


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## Swift

zagahaga said:


> again? lol ... kashmir belongs to pakistan if you dont want to give it let it be indipendant this will keep going on soo.... num heads



--duplicate--


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## bc040400065

Karthic Sri said:


> But u guys have ever thought of the reason IA is in Kashmir in the fist place...?
> 
> From 1948-88 whether the Indian Army was in Kashmir cities..? -NO-
> They were on the borders...
> 
> But once the Pakistani Backed insurgency started then only to contain the Insurgency IA was drawn into Kashmir.
> 
> So if u gotta blame anyone - Blame the terrorists,,...Not the Indian Army..
> 
> And the thousands protesting (allowed to protest) shows the level of democracy in Kashmir.
> 
> Can u see such a spectacle in China for example..? Wont they be fired and tanks be called ..?





Now if you read the article it says that insurgency has seen down turn. But the article is about fake encounters for just blaming pakistan for cross border terrorism... and even forget about the fake encounter thing... just tell me why these people were protesting???


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## bc040400065

karan.1970 said:


> The ones protesting are either right or wrong. If right, hopefully their protests will lead to an investigation resulting in punishment of defaulting officers. If wrong, they are just victims of terrorist propoganda. No impact on the sec forces' operations either way



But the problem is this is not the first time kashmiris are protesting and also not the first time these fake encounter stories have come up. So if the defaulting officers were punished in the investigations for the previous fake encounters then why these encounters havn't stopped.


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## zagahaga

Swift said:


> I have a suggestion, If you think Kashmir really belongs to Pakistan what stops a mighty Pakistan Army (Note : Only Isalmic country to have Nukes, and all those missiles centuries ahead of India's and the super jets with there super pilots ) from coming to liberate it. Why bank on those poor civilians to do the job, what are you waiting for since last 7 decades?



every time i have to respond to this........ YOU GUY CRY WOLF WITH THE SLIGHTEST DOWN FALL IN WAR SOOOOOO WE NOW CHOOSE DIPLOMACY .... but if you want you can choose the option to have 7.6 mm bullets up ur ......


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## zagahaga

karan.1970 said:


> The ones protesting are either right or wrong. If right, hopefully their protests will lead to an investigation resulting in punishment of defaulting officers. If wrong, they are just victims of terrorist propoganda. No impact on the sec forces' operations either way
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 PM ----------



cant handel the truth or cant respond so dont reply ok


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## pak-yes

Yar chor kyun nahi detay kashmir ko.

Sara SouthAsia aur is ki 2 arb abadi sirf kashmir aur Indian ego ki wajay say gharib hay.


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## Swift

zagahaga said:


> every time i have to respond to this........ YOU GUY CRY WOLF WITH THE *SLIGHTEST DOWN FALL IN WAR* SOOOOOO WE NOW CHOOSE DIPLOMACY .... but if you want you can choose the option to have 7.6 mm bullets up ur ......



I didn't get that bold piece , why you should bother about what we cry for, Arent you fighting for a just and pious cause .

And regarding that bullet thing, I would always prefer war on front rather than any this proxy thingy. Though i understand war is devastating but how can u help if u have such a justified cause?


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## hal-fgfa

pak-yes said:


> Yar chor kyun nahi detay kashmir ko.
> 
> Sara SouthAsia aur is ki 2 arb abadi sirf kashmir aur Indian ego ki wajay say gharib hay.



tum chor do


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## Emperor Palpatine

pak-yes said:


> Yar chor kyun nahi detay kashmir ko.
> 
> Sara SouthAsia aur is ki 2 arb abadi sirf kashmir aur Indian ego ki wajay say gharib hay.



Look who'z talking about ego

only 2% of Jammu and Kashmir wants to join pakistan and 43% want to be inpendent compared to * 44% * in Pakistan..so..why don't you give independence first ?


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## pak-yes

hal-fgfa said:


> tum chor do



thek ha chor detay ha jao kashmirio ko balao aur un say poch lo kis kay sath rehna chathay ha.Agar wo kahy India to humay koi aitraaz nahi.


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## hal-fgfa

pak-yes said:


> thek ha chor detay ha jao kashmirio ko balao aur un say poch lo kis kay sath rehna chathay ha.Agar wo kahy India to humay koi aitraaz nahi.



bas itna hi dam hai ... abhi bol rahe the chod do ... again start crying


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## pak-yes

Emperor Palpatine said:


> Look who'z talking about ego
> 
> only 2% of Jammu and Kashmir wants to join pakistan and 43% want to be inpendent compared to * 44% * in Pakistan..so..why don't you give independence first ?



if they want Independence then we have no problem.If kashmir goes to Pakistan,India has problem if kashmir wants Independence India has problem.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

No need to even giving importance of these indians.....they will NEVER accept the TRUTH......its the same case of Fire and WATER.....these people have fake ego problems......just ignore there rantings.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Swift

Regarding the topic , this is a conflict zone and in definitely prone to these claims and counter claims and I just hope this comes out to be untrue and never happens. CM of JK have already ordered probe so just wait for the results to come out.


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## pak-yes

hal-fgfa said:


> bas itna hi dam hai ... abhi bol raha tha chod do ... again start crying



bhai shahab meray ma bhat dam ha ma khulay dil say man leta apni ghalti dosroy par personal attacks nahi karta.ya kam BR boys kartay ha.


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## Swift

I am just posting the below report to reiterate how these claims and counterclaims are common in some disturbed areas...

PAKISTAN: Police officers engaged in fake encounters must be charged for murder

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
AHRC-STM-009-2009
January 08, 2009

A Statement by the Asian Human Rights Commission

PAKISTAN: Police officers engaged in fake encounters must be charged for murder

The enquiry into the murder of four traders at Khalid Bin Waleed road, PECHS of Karachi-Sindh province has revealed 'criminal negligence' on the part of the police officers. The murder happened on the intervening night of 30 and 31 December 2008, which the police had thus far claimed as an incident of 'encounter killing'.

The enquiry, conducted by the Superintendent of Police (Investigation), Mr. Niaz Ahmed Khoso, concludes that "there was no mala fide intent on part of the police party". The report however states that the police exceeded the power of self defense permitted in the law.

The murder had provoked a wave of protests in different cities of Balochistan province, which forced the provincial government to demand the enquiry. The Pukhtoon Khaw Awami Mili Party (PKAM), a coalition partner in the government, had threatened to disassociate from the government if the enquiry was not held and actions taken against the police officers by the Sindh government. The incident had happened within the jurisdiction of the Sindh provincial government.

It appears that the enquiry report is an attempt to hide the facts and is a cover-up of the atrocities committed by the Sindh police. The police officers in Sindh province, like their counterparts in other provinces, enjoy impunity because of the support they receive from provincial heads. The Sindh police in particular are infamous for 'encounter killings' in Pakistan and are also notorious for engaging in abduction of ordinary persons.

It was earlier reported that in the incident that led to the murder of the four traders, the officers involved had fired several shots at close range at the traders resulting in their death. It was also reported that the police officers on the other hand were not injured in the incident, though the police had claimed that they were acting in self defense.

According to the medico-legal report prepared at the Jinnah Postgraduate Hospital, three of the four victims were hit with four projectiles each, while the fourth victim was hit three times. The officers attached to the Anti Car Lifting Cell (ACLC) responsible for the incident had claimed that the deceased, whose car they had intercepted, opened fire at the police officers resulting in the shootout. This claim of self defense appears to have been accepted in the enquiry report. The report however has ignored a vital fact that except for two officers, the other ACLC officers who were members of the police party were in plain clothes when they allegedly intercepted the vehicle.

The enquiry report has recommended that a case of criminal negligence, instead of a charge of murder, to be registered against the police officers involved in the incident. The recommendation and the dilution of charges will only result in providing impunity to the police officers. The question however remains whether the police are allowed to use fatal force and that whether such use of unwarranted force is justified. The enquiry report has apparently failed to consider whether there is any evidence to substantiate the excuse of self defense by the police officers.

The act of self defense is a general exception to the charge of murder. However, such defense is always treated by a court of law with considerable caution. The legal theory is that one who pleads a general exception to a criminal charge must prove it. When the defense of self protection is taken up by police officers, who are at duty to protect and preserve people's life, such defense must be treated with even more caution. The fact that the enquiry was conducted by police officers against their colleagues cuts the root of impartiality. Additionally the police enquiry does not show any traces of proof or even an attempt by the accused police officers, to substantiate their defense. This factor, among several others, casts doubts about the entire process of enquiry.

Article 9 of the Constitution of Pakistan explicitly guarantees the right to life and liberty. Pakistan is a signatory to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). Under Article 6 of the ICCPR, every human being has the inherent right to life. This right shall be protected by law. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his life. The Covenant further casts the responsibility upon the state to ensure that this right is guaranteed.

Just a day after the killing of the four traders in the fake encounter, the police killed yet another person, Mr. Habib Ullah Niazi. Nazi was having tea at a roadside teashop. The police claimed that a pistol and five bottles of alcohol were recovered from the victim. After the incident, an enquiry committee was constituted. But no action was taken against the police officers thus far.

The Asian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) urges the Government of Pakistan to register cases against the police officers involved in both incidents on charges of murder. The government must also ensure that an impartial and open investigation is conducted in both cases. The witnesses willing to depose before such an investigating agency must be assured protection from possible threats from the accused police officers.

If the investigation proves that in both cases the police officers involved are to be charged for murder, the senior police officers who have thus far covered up these two cases must face disciplinary actions. The relatives of the deceased persons must be paid interim compensation pending the investigation in these two cases.

It is through such positive and affirmative actions that the government of Pakistan can prove that Pakistan is no more under a dictatorship, but is a democracy.


# # #

About AHRC: The Asian Human Rights Commission is a regional non-governmental organisation monitoring and lobbying human rights issues in Asia. The Hong Kong-based group was founded in 1984.

Posted on 2009-01-08
Back to [AHRC Statements 2009]


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## Dr.Evil

Every terrorist's relatives will always say they were innocent boys.

Just another case of India bashing and propaganda.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Swift said:


> I am just posting the below report to reiterate how these claims and counterclaims are common in some disturbed areas...
> 
> PAKISTAN: Police officers engaged in fake encounters must be charged for murder
> 
> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> AHRC-STM-009-2009
> January 08, 2009
> 
> A Statement by the Asian Human Rights Commission
> 
> PAKISTAN: Police officers engaged in fake encounters must be charged for murder
> 
> The enquiry into the murder of four traders at Khalid Bin Waleed road, PECHS of Karachi-Sindh province has revealed 'criminal negligence' on the part of the police officers. The murder happened on the intervening night of 30 and 31 December 2008, which the police had thus far claimed as an incident of 'encounter killing'.
> 
> The enquiry, conducted by the Superintendent of Police (Investigation), Mr. Niaz Ahmed Khoso, concludes that "there was no mala fide intent on part of the police party". The report however states that the police exceeded the power of self defense permitted in the law.
> 
> The murder had provoked a wave of protests in different cities of Balochistan province, which forced the provincial government to demand the enquiry. The Pukhtoon Khaw Awami Mili Party (PKAM), a coalition partner in the government, had threatened to disassociate from the government if the enquiry was not held and actions taken against the police officers by the Sindh government. The incident had happened within the jurisdiction of the Sindh provincial government.
> 
> It appears that the enquiry report is an attempt to hide the facts and is a cover-up of the atrocities committed by the Sindh police. The police officers in Sindh province, like their counterparts in other provinces, enjoy impunity because of the support they receive from provincial heads. The Sindh police in particular are infamous for 'encounter killings' in Pakistan and are also notorious for engaging in abduction of ordinary persons.
> 
> It was earlier reported that in the incident that led to the murder of the four traders, the officers involved had fired several shots at close range at the traders resulting in their death. It was also reported that the police officers on the other hand were not injured in the incident, though the police had claimed that they were acting in self defense.
> 
> According to the medico-legal report prepared at the Jinnah Postgraduate Hospital, three of the four victims were hit with four projectiles each, while the fourth victim was hit three times. The officers attached to the Anti Car Lifting Cell (ACLC) responsible for the incident had claimed that the deceased, whose car they had intercepted, opened fire at the police officers resulting in the shootout. This claim of self defense appears to have been accepted in the enquiry report. The report however has ignored a vital fact that except for two officers, the other ACLC officers who were members of the police party were in plain clothes when they allegedly intercepted the vehicle.
> 
> The enquiry report has recommended that a case of criminal negligence, instead of a charge of murder, to be registered against the police officers involved in the incident. The recommendation and the dilution of charges will only result in providing impunity to the police officers. The question however remains whether the police are allowed to use fatal force and that whether such use of unwarranted force is justified. The enquiry report has apparently failed to consider whether there is any evidence to substantiate the excuse of self defense by the police officers.
> 
> The act of self defense is a general exception to the charge of murder. However, such defense is always treated by a court of law with considerable caution. The legal theory is that one who pleads a general exception to a criminal charge must prove it. When the defense of self protection is taken up by police officers, who are at duty to protect and preserve people's life, such defense must be treated with even more caution. The fact that the enquiry was conducted by police officers against their colleagues cuts the root of impartiality. Additionally the police enquiry does not show any traces of proof or even an attempt by the accused police officers, to substantiate their defense. This factor, among several others, casts doubts about the entire process of enquiry.
> 
> Article 9 of the Constitution of Pakistan explicitly guarantees the right to life and liberty. Pakistan is a signatory to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). Under Article 6 of the ICCPR, every human being has the inherent right to life. This right shall be protected by law. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his life. The Covenant further casts the responsibility upon the state to ensure that this right is guaranteed.
> 
> Just a day after the killing of the four traders in the fake encounter, the police killed yet another person, Mr. Habib Ullah Niazi. Nazi was having tea at a roadside teashop. The police claimed that a pistol and five bottles of alcohol were recovered from the victim. After the incident, an enquiry committee was constituted. But no action was taken against the police officers thus far.
> 
> The Asian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) urges the Government of Pakistan to register cases against the police officers involved in both incidents on charges of murder. The government must also ensure that an impartial and open investigation is conducted in both cases. The witnesses willing to depose before such an investigating agency must be assured protection from possible threats from the accused police officers.
> 
> If the investigation proves that in both cases the police officers involved are to be charged for murder, the senior police officers who have thus far covered up these two cases must face disciplinary actions. The relatives of the deceased persons must be paid interim compensation pending the investigation in these two cases.
> 
> It is through such positive and affirmative actions that the government of Pakistan can prove that Pakistan is no more under a dictatorship, but is a democracy.
> 
> 
> # # #
> 
> About AHRC: The Asian Human Rights Commission is a regional non-governmental organisation monitoring and lobbying human rights issues in Asia. The Hong Kong-based group was founded in 1984.
> 
> Posted on 2009-01-08
> Back to [AHRC Statements 2009]


*
I bet they have killed 60 000 people in a occupied territory*


----------



## hal-fgfa

pak-yes said:


> if they want Independence then we have no problem.If kashmir goes to Pakistan,India has problem if kashmir wants Independence India has problem.



if they want freedom so its not related to pakistan

(if u talking about that all muslims are ur brother so some of ur muslim brothers lives in china also please think something about them also )


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Dr.Evil said:


> *Every terrorist's relatives will always say they were innocent boys.*
> Just another case of India bashing and propaganda.



*OOOPPPPPPSSSSS.....i read indian army claiming they were Pakistani militants?crossing over from Pakistan?*


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## Swift

I bet they have not killed even 1000 innocent civilians in Indian Kashmir


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## zagahaga

bro your army is know to pay low wages to it requirts ...that why they need a promotion ... and that why they do staged killings


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## bc040400065

Dr.Evil said:


> Every terrorist's relatives will always say they were innocent boys.
> 
> Just another case of India bashing and propaganda.



Ok So the Routers is also terrorists relative????


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## bc040400065

Swift said:


> I bet they have not killed even 1000 innocent civilians in Indian Kashmir



the Article also provides some figures of killings... i suggest you read the article first... and remember its routers which is giving these figures.


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## Swift

bc040400065 said:


> Ok So the Routers is also terrorists relative????


Reuters is reporting a claim by residents, they dont have jurisdiction to say whats right or wrong.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

hal-fgfa said:


> *if they want freedom so its not related to pakistan*
> (if u talking about that all muslims are ur brother so some of ur muslim brothers lives in china also please think something about them also )



Why?its related to Pakistan it was destined to be a part of Pakistan in 47..... still people in IOK want to join Pakistan.
Even if they dont its still a disputed territory and we support any decision of KASHMIRIS.
Its our faith.

We dont have any border dispute or territorial dispute with China.....we dont care about indian muslims...we care for them as much as u care for the hinos in Pakistan.


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## Windjammer

YouTube - Crowd Smearing Dirt On Indian Soldiers Faces

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## Jade

Many a time, these separatists cash on such incidences, without even checking the veracity, and hoax/force people into protests, oblivion of sufferings of common citizens. 

Where were these separatists when militants blatantly violate human rights? Where were these separatists when tens of thousands of Kashmiri Pandits were forced to emigrate as a result of the violence? Where were these separatists when stone pelters kill innocent people?

Now its true that people are recognizing the true face of the so called separatist movement


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## bc040400065

Swift said:


> Reuters is reporting a claim by residents, they dont have jurisdiction to say whats right or wrong.



But according to the article if you care to read it people were protesting... so what you would say about them... local kashmiris protesting... Are those protesters sent by pakistan across LOC??? Are those protesters pakistani or ISI trained protesters????


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## prodevelopment

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Why?i*ts related to Pakistan it was destined to be a part of Pakistan in 47..... still people in IOK want to join Pakistan.*
> Even if they dont its still a disputed territory and we support any decision of KASHMIRIS.
> Its our faith.



Only 2% of kashmiris want to be a part of Pakistan.


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## bc040400065

prodevelopment said:


> Only 2% of kashmiris want to be a part of Pakistan.



Your source for this claim....


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## DESERT FIGHTER

prodevelopment said:


> Only 2% of kashmiris want to be a part of Pakistan.


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## Windjammer

prodevelopment said:


> Only 2% of kashmiris want to be a part of Pakistan.



And the other 98% don't want to be part of India.

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## Jade

Windjammer said:


> And the other 98% don't want to be part of India.



No, the other 98% want to be part of India.


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## prodevelopment

bc040400065 said:


> Your source for this claim....



This:

Just 2% of people in J&K want to join Pak: Survey - India - The Times of India


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## prodevelopment

Windjammer said:


> And the other 98% don't want to be part of India.



Source please.


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## Areesh

prodevelopment said:


> This:
> 
> Just 2% of people in J&K want to join Pak: Survey - India - The Times of India



And the source is times of India... Lolllzzz


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## prodevelopment

Areesh said:


> And the source is times of India... Lolllzzz



Can you refute the survey with fact/figures? 

Here you go, a non-ToI source:

Only 2% Kashmiris want to join Pakistan: survey


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## Areesh

prodevelopment said:


> Can you refute the survey with fact/figures?
> 
> Here you go, a non-ToI source:
> 
> Only 2% Kashmiris want to join Pakistan: survey



And surveys in both the links are the same... Conducted by some stupid Britisher. Britishers are the one responsible for this menace. Any ways Kashmir has no relation with India. Kashmir simply doesn't belong to India.


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## Awesome

Pakistan has been saying this from day one, now it has blown up in Indian faces. All the claims of fake encounters and allegations of extra judicial murders by Amnesty International should come under UN review. 

So this is what India does, brings out the Kashmiri youth kills them and calls them Pakistani terrorists. Pathetic.


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## r3alist

prodevelopment said:


> Can you refute the survey with fact/figures?
> 
> Here you go, a non-ToI source:
> 
> Only 2% Kashmiris want to join Pakistan: survey



do you have the study at hand?

what were his research methods and methodology?

are his sources verifiable?




the fact is thousands turn out to protest against indian occupation, and the other obvious truth is that if so many kahmiri;s wanted to be indian INDIA WOULD NOT NEED TO BE AN OCCUPYING FORCE


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## prodevelopment

r3alist said:


> do you have the study at hand?
> 
> what were his research methods and methodology?
> 
> are his sources verifiable?



The survey is based on interviews with a sample of 3800. Beyond that, I don't know anything about the methodology.

But tell me this, do YOU have the study at hand? Any statistics/data to refute this survey? Sorry, I never ask for the veracity of sources when I read a research report. If you're interested in the sources, kindly contact the surveying party directly.



r3alist said:


> the fact is thousands turn out to protest against indian occupation, and the other obvious truth is that if so many kahmiri;s wanted to be indian INDIA WOULD NOT NEED TO BE AN OCCUPYING FORCE



Thousands in a state of millions do not make a majority. Anyways, the survey says 44% of Kashmiris want independence while 43% want to be with India.


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## mehwish92

sorry wrong thread


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## r3alist

prodevelopment said:


> The survey is based on interviews with a sample of 3800. Beyond that, I don't know anything about the methodology.
> 
> But tell me this, do YOU have the study at hand? Any statistics/data to refute this survey? Sorry, I never ask for the veracity of sources when I read a research report. If you're interested in the sources, kindly contact the surveying party directly.
> 
> 
> 
> Thousands in a state of millions do not make a majority. Anyways, the survey says 44% of Kashmiris want independence while 43% want to be with India.




so you know next to nothing about the actual study yet you still post it as if its gospel - i have no further comment.


as to saying kashmiri's want to join indian - i will leave it to you to explain why indian need to occupy them


----------



## prodevelopment

r3alist said:


> so you know next to nothing about the actual study yet you still post it as if its gospel - i have no further comment.
> 
> 
> as to saying kashmiri's want to join indian - i will leave it to you to explain why indian need to occupy them



Hahahaha, I know that it was conducted by your countrymen. So why don't you ask them? 

Any study which does not conform to your contorted views does not automatically become biased and one-sided. To dismiss this study, you need something called, you know, proof. 

India does not 'OCCUPY' Kashmir. Pakistan has occupied a part of Kashmir. Is that the answer you were expecting?


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## mehwish92

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Read the survey carefully - the IaK results are skewed because support for independence in predominantly Hindu Jammu is around 1%. The support for independence in IaK proper _'is between 74% and 95%'_



Almost a third of Jammuites are Muslim. But these Muslims are generally pro-India. 

Another article for you guys, if it hasn't already been posted (my apologies if it has)

*98% Kashmiris do not want to join Pakistan
*

Srinagar: Only 2% of residents of Kashmir want to join Pakistan while less than half of them favor independence as a solution to the unrest in the region, an independent survey conducted by British academic Robert Bradnock said. The survey found 44% of people in Pakistan side Kashmir and 43% in the Indian side favoring independence.

Titled Kashmir: Paths to Peace, the survey is seen as a rare attempt to assess the opinions of people on both sides of the Line of Control (LOC)  the de facto border that splits the region between the two countries.

Any solution will depend on the Indian and Pakistani governments commitment to achieving a permanent settlement," Bradnock has been quoted as saying by Zee News.

United Nations resolutions soon after the partition of the sub-continent in 1947 called for a plebiscite to determine whether the region should belong to India or Pakistan. The resolutions, however, have not been implemented.

98% Kashmiris do not want to join Pakistan | TwoCircles.net


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## IndianArmy

bc040400065 said:


> But sir don't you beleive all is not right in indian kashmir???? Is this fake encounters that Kashmiris deserve??? Why use of force ?? Why kill inocent people just to blame pakistan...??



First of All, Army was not present In Kashmir but in Border until Insurgency Caused head Aches for the Nation,And You should think and Consider the World as even they say Pakistan is Infiltrating terrorists, So You just cannot blame it on Indian Army 100%.... We Know there is a Fault in us, We are lacking better Intelligence Inputs by which these are happening....

But what else can we do? We cannot Risk another 26/11 , We cannot turn our country from Kashmir to KanyaKumari a Graveyard....

We really feel sad after After knowing them as Innocents and curse the Intelligence


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## EjazR

There is no justification of fake encounters, if true the perpetrators should be punished. In this case, a local SHO who happens to be Kashmri muslim allegedly lured three boys for a sum of Rs150,000 to the LoC, the local army batallion killed them and planted weapons. This is a tarnish on the Army's image and only a swift investigation and punishment of the culprits will clean it.

Atleast this will go to show that any HR abuse will not be tolerated and deter such adventures in the future and instill confidence in the judicial process for the local people.
------------------
*New leads emerge in the J&K fake encounter case - dnaindia.com*

Srinagar: Even as Kashmir simmers over the killing of three youth by army in an alleged fake encounter, new leads are emerging in the case with investigations revealing that money has changed hands for staging this operation allegedly by 4-Rajputana Riffles, which has been shifted from the Machil sector some days back.

Sources said the shifting of 4-Rajputana Riffles to Meerut was as per schedule and its moving out had nothing to do with the fake encounter case which has sullied the image of the army. They have been replaced by another unit which has been entrusted the job of guarding the LoC at Machil.

Police have already registered a case of murder and abduction against the army. *Three local people have already been arrested and an army major is currently under the scanner for staging this gun battle at Machil.*

"Of course money has changed hands, but how much is a matter of investigation. Whenever we have material on file we shall make requisition for investigating these people (from the army)", said Farooq Ahmad, IGP, Kashmir range.

*Sources said the three accused -- surrendered militant turned special police official Bashir Ahmad, his accomplice Fayaz Ahmad and Syed Abbas working in Territorial Army-- currently in the police custody had got a cut from the reward money for luring the three men who were later killed in a staged encounter dubbing them as infiltrators.*

Shahzad Ahmad Khan, Mohammad Shafi Lone and Riyaz Ahmad Lone of Nadihal Rafiabad, Sopore had gone missing on April 27 prompting their families to lodge a missing report with the police.

After preliminary investigations the police converted the report into a kidnapping case and zeroed in on two people Bashir and Fayaz. On Friday police arrested their third accomplice Syed Abbas of Territorial Army.

The three civilians were lured to work as porters for the army and promised good money for the job. But instead they were taken to Machil where they were handed over to army who killed them in an alleged fake encounter and were branded infiltrators on April 30.

Even the defence spokesperson in Srinagar on April 30 issued the statement boasting about foiling the infiltration bid by killing three infiltrators on the LoC in Machil sector .The slain were later buried in Kalaroos graveyard as unidentified militants. But after the families saw the pictures they suspected foul play.

On Friday all the three bodies were exhumed from the graveyard in the presence of their families which identified their kins and then took them to Rafiabad for last rites.

Tension has mounted in Kashmir over the killing with protestors clashing with police at a number of places in north Kashmir and Srinagar. Six people including three cops were injured in the stone pelting incidents at Baramulla. The protestors had blocked the Baramulla-Handwara highway and when police tried to clear they were pelted stones.

"There were some incidents in which some people suffered injuries. The situation is under control and there is nothing to worry", said Shakeel A Beag, SSP Baramulla.

There are two probes currently being held to uncover the truth. *The state government has asked divisional commissioner Kashmir Naseema Lankar to enquire while army has also ordered a fast-track internal probe to fix the responsibility.*

*"A person not less than divisional commissioner is probing the matter.No efforts will be spared to reach to the bottom of the case", said Omar Abdullah, J&K chief minister.*

An army spokesman in Srinagar said the army is concerned about the seriousness of the allegations. *"As and when a formal report is received from the police authorities, a fast track enquiry will be instituted to ascertain the facts. In case any wrongdoing comes to light, expeditious action to bring the guilty to book will be taken", he said.*

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## mehwish92

billi said:


> also Pak should be ready to take back 150 muslims living in india, because at that time this was the case.
> imagine 320 million people living on that tiny patch of land ...lol....



That comment was highly uncalled for. As an Indian Muslim i take offense to that.


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## Marxist

WASHINGTON - Ahead of next weeks strategic dialogue between the United States and India, a senior American diplomat, while underscoring the importance of the Indo-Pakistan dialogue, has expressed the view that contentious issues like Kashmir should come up only after more vital problems like terrorism and trade are addressed.
I think thats not going to be an issue thats going to be addressed right away, Assistant Secretary of State for South and Central Asia Robert Blake said in response to a question at a special news conference on India Friday.
Observers noted Blacks attempt to downgrade the core dispute between India and Pakistan, saying there can be no peace and stability in the sub-continent without a just settlement of the decades old dispute.
The US official said, Whats most important is first to get these talks going again and once theyve gotten beyond the immediate counter-terrorism issues, to focus on some of the important opportunities like trade before taking up some of these more sensitive territorial issues.
We always have an interest in seeing our two friends have peaceful relations, but we are not pressurising either side, as you say. We have consistently said that it is up to India and Pakistan to determine how to improve their relations and that the pace and the scope and the character of whatever talks they have is really up to those two countries to decide, he added.
But we will always stand ready to help in any way that we can, because again, we see it very much in our interest to see improved ties between these two friends of ours.
The assistant secretary said the US would like the two countries to develop their ties as they did a few years ago but argued that Pakistan should first stop militants belonging to banned outfits like Lashkar-e-Tayyaba and Jaish-e-Muhammad from carrying out activities against India.

Moment not apt for Kashmir talks: US | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## Ali.009

sparklingway said:


> People responding with single sentence all-encompassing statements labeling everything as propaganda should not have the right to post.



Understanding these complex political matters is not easy for everyone. Esp for people who are too naive to believe in everything BBC/CNN has been feeding to them. 

What else do you call propaganda? Use a better word for it? To make your indian friends happy!


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## Emperor Palpatine

Ali.009 said:


> Understanding these complex political matters is not easy for everyone. Esp for people who are too naive to believe in everything BBC/CNN has been feeding to them.
> 
> What else do you call propaganda? Use a better word for it? To make your indian friends happy!



Do you know Canada took the report from the RAW,CIA,MOSSAD survey which happened in year 2000 to not allow the Indian officers into Canada....

Maybe that's a RAW conspiracy too....

When claiming something..provide proof for it....Many here love to say RAW.CIA,MOSSAD without giving an ounce of proof ..


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## Windjammer

prodevelopment said:


> Source please.



Over half million Indian soldiers are not there for summer vacation.


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## hal-fgfa

Windjammer said:


> Over half million Indian soldiers are not there for summer vacation.



i wish they can go on vacation .... but pakistan never support support of terrorism


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## Windjammer

hal-fgfa said:


> i wish they can go on vacation .... but pakistan never support support of terrorism



If according to some Indian members here, only 2% of Occupied Kashmiris support Pakistan then why does India needs a force equivalent to Pakistan's entire Army to suppress them.

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## hal-fgfa

Windjammer said:


> If according to some Indian members here, only 2% of Occupied Kashmiris support Pakistan then why does India needs a force equivalent to Pakistan's entire Army to suppress them.



because of this 

*Russian Envoy: 40 Terror Camps Still Running On ****** Border*

Russian Envoy: 40 Terror Camps Still Running On Af-Pak Border | AHN


*De Borchgrave: Pakistan a 'Nursery' for Global Terror*

De Borchgrave: Pakistan a 'Nursery' for Global Terror


*Pakistan and Terrorism: A Summary*

http://italy.usembassy.gov/pdf/other/RS22632.pdf

*Terrorism's new hub in Pakistan*

Terrorism's new hub in Pakistan - From Our Inbox - MiamiHerald.com


not a single source is indian

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## TheBraveHeart

I guess Indian Army has a problem at hand and it needs to clean up its image as soon as possible by taking strong & corrective action against the accused if fake encounter has occurred, so that it deters anyone else from committing the same..Before passing any judgements I guess we need to wait for the enquiry to be completed which should be fair. 



Asim Aquil said:


> Pakistan has been saying this from day one, now it has blown up in Indian faces. All the claims of fake encounters and allegations of extra judicial murders by Amnesty International should come under UN review.
> 
> So this is what India does, brings out the Kashmiri youth kills them and calls them Pakistani terrorists. Pathetic.



Rather than being a silent observer until the enquiry clears the matter all you want to do is throw sh*t at IA, ehh...why don't you first clean your own house where drones kill your own civilians on intelligence provided by your own security forces. Add to that attrocities in Baluchistan, Pak Occupied Kashmir...etc.



Windjammer said:


> If according to some Indian members here, only 2% of Occupied Kashmiris support Pakistan then why does India needs a force equivalent to Pakistan's entire Army to suppress them.


Not to suppress but to save & distinguish them from Pakistan born terrorists who infiltrate the areas and torture innocents.


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## prodevelopment

I'm yet to see that source windy. Or just admit you pull out statistics out of your ***.


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## KS

prodevelopment said:


> I'm yet to see that source windy. Or just admit you pull out statistics out of your ***.



EXpecting credible source or logical argument from Windy??!!?

better expect Rain in Sahara...that has a better probability...


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## EjazR

*Jammu and Kashmir Police recruit women*
*2010-05-30 20:30:00*
Girls from Sunderbani, quite close to the Line of Control (LoC) between Indian and Pakistan, appeared in large numbers for the three-day long police recruitment drive in Jammu and Kashmir's Rajouri District.

Over 450 girls appeared in the recruitment drive that began on Friday.

The young girls were judged on the basis of academic qualification as well as physical strength.

The various parameters of recruitment ranged from physique such as height and other tests of endurance like racing, throwing shot put, long jump and spiriting among others.

"I want to get into the police force and want to make my state of Jammu and Kashmir feel proud. And I hope that I will get recruited and will be able to protect my country," said Naseem, a candidate.

The state police have been making efforts in empowering the women to encourage them in joining the forces.

"Their qualifications are good and girls are physically fit as well. The girls are physically qualifying than what we had expected. By this, we know that the girls are very serious about their preparations and that's a good sign," said S D Singh Jamwal, Deputy Inspector General of Police.

"They will get employment in this field and they will also inspire other women to join such a tough job or service and help the nation," he added.

Earlier on May 20, the state police had imparted special arms training to the girls in Rajouri District. (ANI)


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## pandamonkey

so their are kashmiri muslims who are police officers. whats the big deal????
just because their are kashmiri's in police doesn't mean anything. Kashmiris don't want to be part of india. Independent or with pakistan are the only opitions for us. 
All of you indian members, most of you probaly have never been to kashmir, stop living in fantsay land, kashmiris have never considered themselves nor will they ever consider themsleves as part of india. India are occquipers of our land, they have rapped our mothers and sisters and killed thousand of our brothers and sisters. 
sorry for the crapy spelling


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## hal-fgfa

pandamonkey said:


> so their are kashmiri muslims who are police officers. whats the big deal????
> just because their are kashmiri's in police doesn't mean anything. Kashmiris don't want to be part of india. Independent or with pakistan are the only opitions for us.
> All of you indian members, most of you probaly have never been to kashmir, stop living in fantsay land, kashmiris have never considered themselves nor will they ever consider themsleves as part of india. India are occquipers of our land, they have rapped our mothers and sisters and killed thousand of our brothers and sisters.
> sorry for the crapy spelling





yes it doesnt mean any thing ... because they just save people from terrorist .. who kills, raped J&K people nothing else ...


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## kak1978

J&K plebiscite not an option:poll | Video | Reuters.com


*Source: Reuters.*


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## Evil Flare

Ok

Lets have another War  & this time with Nukes ....


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## Prometheus

2/june/10
*One insurgent killed in J&K, Encounter still on*
Jammu, Jun 1 (PTI) A 'top LeT commander' was tonight killed in a gunbattle with army in Poonch district of Jammu and Kashmir, an army officer said.

Acting on a tip-off, troops launch a search operations in Dehra Ki Gali area in Surankot tehsil in the district this evening, he said.

During search operations, militants opened fired on the troops and in retaliatory firing a self-styled LeT commander, Abu Kara, was killed and another militant was injured, he added.

The encounter was on till late in the night.

fullstory

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## Skeptic

*Fake encounter in Kashmir: Imperatives for a thorough investigation*

The Union Government, the Government of Jammu and Kashmir and the Army are seized with the investigations into the alleged fake encounter by some Army personnel. 

It is alleged that the Army had, on April 30, declared the elimination of three unidentified infiltrators in Machil sector in Kashmir. 

Further investigation, under orders of Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, revealed that those killed were actually three Kashmiri youth Shahzad Ahmed, Reyaz Ahmed and Mohammad Shafi hailing from Nadihal in District Baramullah of Kashmir who had been reported missing by their family members on May, 10. 

An incident of this nature, if found to be true, would be termed as a most heinous crime. It is, therefore, imperative that every effort be made to identify the culprits and give to them the maximum possible punishment at the earliest. 

There are a few imperatives that would guide a judicious and time bound resolution of the case. 

The first is a firm resolve of the authorities and the second is creation of an environment where the proceedings are carried out in a transparent manner without fear or favour.

While talking to the media on the sidelines of the Passing out Parade at the National Defence Academy, Khadakvasla, on May, 31, Defence Minister AK Antony reiterated the policy of zero tolerance to human rights violations in the Valley and assured that there would be no cover-up to shield the guilty in this case. 

This is the second time since the incident that the Defence Minister has given an assurance of this nature. 

Earlier, he had assured full cooperation with the Jammu and Kashmir Police in the probe, apart from the high level internal inquiry that would be conducted by the Army. Repeated assurances given by the Defence Minister indicate the seriousness with which he proposes to deal with the incident. 

His words find support in the fact that the internal inquiry has already been ordered by none other than the Army Commander of Northern Command. The Jammu and Kashmir Police is also pursuing the case most vigorously. 

Within a few days it has arrested four persons, Bashir Ahmed Lone, Qayoom Lone, Abdul Hamid and Abbas Shah who allegedly lured the three youth with promises of getting them work as labourers with an Army camp and took them to Machil where the encounter took place.

It is heartening to see the speed and seriousness with which all instruments of the State are reacting to the incident. The spirit of cooperation, which marks the approach the State government, and the Army is also quite encouraging. 

The onward process will involve simultaneous investigations by the Police and conduct of internal inquiry by the Army. Once the facts are established, those found guilty will be punished under the Army Act and the civil criminal procedure code. 

The law has ample scope to mete out punishment commensurate to the crime under both the Army Act and the CrPC.

On earlier occasions, the Army has conducted its internal investigation speedily and has brought the guilty to justice in record time. In December 2004, two Army personnel, Havildar Krishna Bahadur Gurkha and Rifleman Zuber Khan, while on patrolling duty, entered the house of a civilian without proper authority. 

The next day an FIR for rape was filed against the soldiers. The allegation was proved false but the personnel, having broken the Army code of conduct, were dismissed from service with the Havildar getting an additional one-year imprisonment. 

In yet another case in November 2004, one Major Rehman Hussain was charged with double rape. The allegation was proved false by medical reports, nevertheless, a General Court Marshal tried the officer and though acquitted for the charge of rape was found guilty for attempting to outrage the modesty of the women and was dismissed from service on January, 31, 2005. 

In both cases justice was meted out within months of the incident taking place which does not normally happen in civil proceedings. 

In this case the initial reaction of the authorities has left no room to doubt their resolve to conduct a thorough investigation in a time bound manner. 

There is a perceptible determination to identify the culprits as fast as is possible. In order to ensure that the ends of justice are met it is now necessary to allow the investigation to proceed without any extraneous pressure. 

The need of the hour is to allow the judicial process to take its own course so that the guilty are identified and punished. 

Politicising the issue will only delay and disrupt the course of the Investigation.


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## Spitfighter

I'd like to see the look on their faces when they come prancing across the border and wipe out another 200 people. I really don't know where India thinks its headed with this soft attitude towards terrorism.

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## Tiger Prowling

:chilli


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## Tiger Prowling




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## TheBraveHeart

This is an act of facilitation of terrorism in India by the GOI itself...We already have seen the consequences of releasing terrorists after 1999 kandhar hostage crisis...still the GOI wants to play with fire!!!

This is nothing but mockery of the sacrifices that fellow Indians have given for decades..

Indian Security forces would rather do well to kill any terrorist especially Pakistani nationals rather than imprisoning them.. !!

On a lighter note, I heard Kasab has asked his lawyer to contact GOI and request his name to be added in the list.


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## Adwitiya

TheBraveHeart said:


> This is an act of facilitation of terrorism in India by the GOI itself...We already have seen the consequences of releasing terrorists after 1999 kandhar hostage crisis...still the GOI wants to play with fire!!!
> 
> This is nothing but mockery of the sacrifices that fellow Indians have given for decades..
> 
> Indian Security forces would rather do well to kill any terrorist especially Pakistani nationals rather than imprisoning them.. !!
> 
> *On a lighter note, I heard Kasab has asked his lawyer to contact GOI and request his name to be added in the list.*



Oh we will definetly send him back wrapped in a coffin. After all we indian muslims dont bury terrorists.

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## sab

Tiger Prowling said:


> :chilli


any relative of yours among them?????????

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## TaimiKhan

Well militants are never let loose in such a way. 

It looks more like these 25 have been proved to be innocent and now to safe their own face, the Indians are coming up with this gimmick that they are letting loose militants, as saying these innocent souls were kept in detention and tortured would further bring a bad name to their already you know what.

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## Areesh

TaimiKhan said:


> Well militants are never let loose in such a way.
> 
> It looks more like these 25 have been proved to be innocent and now to safe their own face, the Indians are coming up with this gimmick that they are letting loose militants, as saying these innocent souls were kept in detention and tortured would further bring a bad name to their already you know what.



Yup Taimi that is pretty obvious. There is no rocket science involve in it. If they are really the so called militants sent by Pakistan and GOI is releasing them, then Indian public should protest against this decision instead of posting on pdf. Jao ja kar tyre jalao.


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## sab

TaimiKhan said:


> Well militants are never let loose in such a way.
> 
> It looks more like these 25 have been proved to be innocent and now to safe their own face, the Indians are coming up with this gimmick that they are letting loose militants, as saying these innocent souls were kept in detention and tortured would further bring a bad name to their already you know what.


Being arrested in other side of border itself is a crime 
Dont say India kidnapped them from Pakistan and put in jail. 

According to government sources, they have completed their terms in jail. We do not hang every body unless he/she is doing something extraordinary..


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## rohailmalhi

TaimiKhan said:


> Well militants are never let loose in such a way.
> 
> It looks more like these 25 have been proved to be innocent and now to safe their own face, the Indians are coming up with this gimmick that they are letting loose militants, as saying these innocent souls were kept in detention and tortured would further bring a bad name to their already you know what.



Yes exactly GOI aint fool , they dont even let go of fishermen fro years and years and thn y are they let loose these people .btw y wont u let go of Amjal singh .Y dont they ...........
Let me tell u its the deal to show the world tht pakistan is still sending people accross the border and indians as always innocent chickens to send back those people to Pakistan ...........
Wht a joke indian govt is doing .


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## Areesh

sab said:


> Being arrested in other side of border itself is a crime
> Dont say India kidnapped them from Pakistan and put in jail.
> 
> According to government sources, they have completed their terms in jail. We do not hang every body unless he/she is doing something extraordinary..



So being a foreign militant isn't something extraordinary. Lolzzz

It is good to hear this from an Indian.


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## sab

Areesh said:


> Yup Taimi that is pretty obvious. There is no rocket science involve in it. If they are really the so called militants sent by Pakistan and GOI is releasing them, then Indian public should protest against this decision instead of posting on pdf. Jao ja kar tyre jalao.


better you go to your authority and suggest them not to recieve those militants. Because it will simply prove your men cross border and nobody is going to believe that is for social work


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## sab

Areesh said:


> So being a foreign militant isn't something extraordinary. Lolzzz
> 
> It is good to hear this from an Indian.


yes.....our constitution have provided specific penalties for specific crimes.....things will be done according to that....not by whim of any general...


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## Areesh

sab said:


> better you go to your authority and suggest them not to recieve those militants. Because it will simply prove your men cross border and nobody is going to believe that is for social work



If crossing the border makes someone a militant then we have many Indian militants in our jails. What should we do with them. Annihilate them??


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## gurjot

Areesh said:


> If crossing the border makes someone a militant then we have many Indian militants in our jails. What should we do with them. Annihilate them??



crossing border for special purpose,something special


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## sab

Areesh said:


> If crossing the border makes someone a militant then we have many Indian militants in our jails. What should we do with them. Annihilate them??


Your wish.....why asking me????


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## Areesh

sab said:


> yes.....our constitution have provided specific penalties for specific crimes.....things will be done according to that....not by whim of any general...



Well you do have a very strange and weird constitution. Anyways please apply this constitution to the poor fishermen also and release them.


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## Areesh

gurjot said:


> crossing border for special purpose,something special



Yeah something special. To have a party on the expenses of GOI and then getting back home safe and sound.

Lolllzzz


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## sab

Areesh said:


> Well you do have a very strange and weird constitution. Anyways please apply this constitution to the poor fishermen also and release them.


If you have a legal system that will prosecute the Indians who are caught in your side of border. It is up on your authority to find whether they are fishermen or came for some evil purposes. Treatment will be according to that only.

In India death sentence are given only for rearest of rare crimes. And if someone , even if he is a militant, completes his term he should be handed over. 
Same thing is applicable to fishermen too. Once proven innocent they are also realeased.


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## sab

Areesh said:


> Well you do have a very strange and weird constitution. Anyways please apply this constitution to the poor fishermen also and release them.


what did you find strange. in all civil societies punishment are given according to the crimes committed. Do you have same punishment for a pick-pocketer and a murderer??????????


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## ice_man

TheBraveHeart said:


> This is an act of facilitation of terrorism in India by the GOI itself...We already have seen the consequences of releasing terrorists after 1999 kandhar hostage crisis...still the GOI wants to play with fire!!!
> 
> This is nothing but mockery of the sacrifices that fellow Indians have given for decades..
> 
> Indian Security forces would rather do well to kill any terrorist especially Pakistani nationals rather than imprisoning them.. !!
> 
> On a lighter note, I heard Kasab has asked his lawyer to contact GOI and request his name to be added in the list.



firstly no one frees terrorist!!! i am sure no evidence was found against them! if any evidence was then india would have done *SO MUCH INTERNATIONAL DRAMA!*


SECONDLY as for kasab on a "lighter note" indian *everyday *catches pakistani fishermen but somehow miraculously he evaded indian coast guard & navy!!


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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> yup...nothing extra-ordinary to warrant putting in a jail.
> 
> There are other simple methods to deal with foreign terrorists.
> 
> Top-LeT-commander-killed-in-Jammu-and-Kashmir



Hope it isn't a fake encounter like many others.



sab said:


> what did you find strange. in all civil societies punishment are given according to the crimes committed. Do you have same punishment for a pick-pocketer and a murderer??????????



Isn't it strange that person who is a foreign militant, who has been according to you involve in fighting against the Indian state is now being release by GOI because of this lame and strange constitution.

You do have a weird constitution.


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## prodevelopment

Areesh said:


> Isn't it strange that person who is a foreign militant, who has been according to you involve in fighting against the Indian state is now being release by GOI because of this lame and strange constitution.
> 
> You do have a weird constitution.



See we have this one thing called LAW. 

Repeat after me. 

L------A-----W

I know you haven't heard of this word before that's why I'm introducing this to you.

Law essentially states that you cannot do everything according to your whims and fancies.

In this case, Law states that those who have served their time in prison have to be released by the government.

For more information about Law, consult your local library.

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## KS

Areesh said:


> Hope it isn't a fake encounter like many others.


The person killed crossed the border and came with a Kalashnikov...so i dont care if its a fake encounter or not.

*I believe my Army.Period.*


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## Areesh

prodevelopment said:


> See we have this one thing called LAW.
> 
> Repeat after me.
> 
> L------A-----W
> 
> I know you haven't heard of this word before that's why I'm introducing this to you.
> 
> Law essentially states that you cannot do everything according to your whims and fancies.
> 
> In this case, Law states that those who have served their time in prison have to be released by the government.
> 
> For more information about Law, consult your local library.



Yeah I know all this but doesn't changes the fact both your whole story and your constitution are weird and strange. Infact it is in very much contradiction to Indian past. 



Karthic Sri said:


> The person killed crossed the border and came with a Kalashnikov...so i dont care if its a fake encounter or not.
> 
> *I believe my Army.Period.*



You better dear.

I hope it isn't fake. I hope they won't receive this treatment.

Indian soldiers receiving the Kashmiri Hospitality


----------



## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> hahaha....wen did youtube become a credible source for posting abt a topic...
> 
> There are "N" number of youtube videos for interviews with aliens..



And CNN IBN is also a ISI agent right?

Huh


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## KS

Areesh said:


> And CNN IBN is also a ISI agent right?
> 
> Huh



After all these days in this forum I thought its a RAW-MOSSAD-CIA agent....


----------



## gurjot

Areesh said:


> Yeah something special. To have a party on the expenses of GOI and then getting back home safe and sound.
> 
> Lolllzzz



i was talking abt infiltration into india lol,,.on expenses of


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## prodevelopment

Areesh said:


> Yeah I know all this but doesn't changes the fact both your whole story and your constitution are weird and strange. Infact it is in very much contradiction to Indian past.



The fact that you find the Indian constitution both strange AND wierd is not surprising. After all, you haven't been subject to a real constitution in your life. 

What is strange is that you think Indian constitution contradicts our past. Dear, we don't go about changing our entire constitution every 30 years like some people. 



> Yeah something special. To have a party on the expenses of GOI and then getting back home safe and sound.
> 
> Lolllzzz



Oh, and if you think that a party is going on in our prisons, well, you are cordially invited to join


----------



## raleigh22

Spitfighter said:


> I'd like to see the look on their faces when they come prancing across the border and wipe out another 200 people. I really don't know where India thinks its headed with this soft attitude towards terrorism.





TheBraveHeart said:


> This is an act of facilitation of terrorism in India by the GOI itself...



Before you condemn the Government, look into the background of the case. The release was ordered by the Supreme Court of India, in a case filed by Bhim Singh, of the J&K Panthers Party.
The defence of the government for not releasing these men was that they were waiting for an equal number of prisoners to be released by Pakistan.
The Supreme Court rejected this argument.




> *Court orders release, deportation of 16 Pakistani prisoners
> *
> 
> NEW DELHI, March 10, 2010
> The Supreme Court on Monday directed the Union government to deport in two months 16 Pakistani prisoners languishing in jail even after completion of their sentence for offences under the Public Safety Act of Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> *A Bench of Justices Markandey Katju and R.M. Lodha rejected the government's argument that they could be released only if an equal number of Indian prisoners in Pakistan were released and sent home.*
> 
> The Bench gave this direction on a petition filed by Bhim Singh, leader of the Jammu and Kashmir Panthers Party, seeking release of all Pakistanis detained in different jails of Agra, Jodhpur, Naini, Sangrur, Varanasi and Tihar. He submitted that there was no case against them and they had served their prison term.
> 
> Those ordered released are: Mohammad Ajmal, Mehrban Sathi, Mohammad Nawaz, Sajad Ali Jat, Shabir Ahmed, Shahzad Gul, Shahid Mehmood, Qudrat Ullah, Mohammad Farooq Raja, Dawood Ahmed Mughal, Faiz Ali, Mohammad Usman Shiksh, Zarar Baloch, Shahid Latief, Suhail Ahmed Kataria and Sher Khan. They had already been provided travel documents by Pakistan.
> 
> Justice Katju told Centre's counsel: This court is the custodian of the civil rights of every person, Indian or foreigner, under Article 21 of the Constitution and no person shall be deprived of his life or liberty without the procedure established by law. This provision in the Indian Constitution cannot be allowed to be diluted.
> 
> *He observed: How can the government keep them in detention in violation of the fundamental rights of a person for years together without resorting to the procedure of law? The right to life and liberty was not dependent on another country's action,* he said.
> 
> Centre's stand
> 
> In its affidavit, the Centre said 22 prisoners who had completed their sentences and detained in different jails were recommended for deportation by the by Jammu and Kashmir government. It said Pakistan, while clearing the names of 16 persons, had neither sent travelling documents nor cleared the names of five others  Mohd Aslam Mughal alias Zahoor Ahmed, Manzoor Ahmad Sheikh, Liaquat Ali Khan alias Mehboob Ali and Abdul Qadeer Khawaja, but consular access had been provided to them. In respect of one person his nationality could not be verified, the affidavit said.



The Hindu : News / National : Court orders release, deportation of 16 Pakistani prisoners




Areesh said:


> Well you do have a very strange and weird constitution. Anyways please apply this constitution to the poor fishermen also and release them.


Maybe strange and weird to you. But it proved beneficial to some of your fellow citizens. In light of the above judgement, I think the government would have to release fishermen after they finish their jail terms.

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## dabong1

A recent survey in Indian- and Pakistani-administered Kashmir has produced "striking results". The poll was conducted by Robert Bradnock - an associate fellow at the Chatham House think-tank in London - and here he assesses the results.
Indian paramilitary soldiers detain a Kashmiri youth in Srinagar Most Kashmiris yearn for peace

Given the significance of the 63-year-old dispute over Kashmir - for India, for Pakistan and above all for Kashmiris - it is remarkable how few attempts there have been to test opinion in Kashmir itself about attitudes to key issues in the dispute.

Two polls in the last decade have sampled opinion in Indian Jammu and Kashmir. Opinion has also been explored outside Kashmir in the cities of India and Pakistan.

Yet the poll published on 26 May at Chatham House was the first ever to be taken on both sides of the Line of Control (LoC).
Urgently felt

Its key results are striking.

Unemployment and other economic issues, for example, rank high across the whole of Pakistani held Kashmir and Indian held Jammu and Kashmir.

Indeed economic issues were among the few that united opinion in nearly all the sampled districts on both sides of the LoC.
A Jammu and Kashmir Police officer interacts with Village Defence Committee (VDC) members near Jammu
Continue reading the main story
The poll shows that there is more room than many had anticipated in Kashmiri opinion itself for negotiation. 
At first glance economic problems seem to be the top priority in the minds of many Kashmiris, and more important than solving the dispute itself.

Yet when asked how important the dispute was to them personally, 80% overall said it was very important - 75% in Pakistan-administered Kashmir and 82% in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir.

The search for a solution is thus urgently felt.

On many other issues, however, opinions were sharply divided, notably by geographical distribution.

The headline figures of 44% (in Pakistan-administered Kashmir) and 43% (in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir) opting for independence, for example, conceals wide regional disparities.

While in the predominantly Muslim Kashmir Valley in Indian-administered Kashmir, the proportion in favour of independence ranged from 74%-95%.

But in the four districts of the predominantly Hindu Jammu part of Indian-administered Kashmir, there was virtually no support for independence at all.

In response to the question "Will an end to militant violence help to end the conflict?" opinion ranged from 0% in Rajouri to 98% in Anantnag and Kathua, while in Pakistan-administered Kashmir it ranged from 27% in Kotli to 75% in Bagh.
Resolution

This was a professionally designed and implemented poll. I worked with Ipsos MORI (based in London) on the poll's design.

FACTS Worldwide (Mumbai) and Aftab Associates Private Limited (Pakistan) used specially trained interviewers to carry out the face-to-face interviews in four languages.
Protest in Srinagar Many Kashmiris - but not a majority - favour independence

It was funded by a charitable organisation run by Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, the son of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi.

Dr Gaddafi's foundation had already been funding development projects among Kashmiri refugees in Pakistan and India, and in 2002 approached me at King's College London to discuss issues surrounding the resolution of the dispute.

In line with his view that civil society has a vital role to play in resolving disputes worldwide, he sponsored the poll.

Engaging Kashmiri opinion emerged as one of the key features of the poll.

Three quarters of all Kashmiris - on both sides of the LoC - believe that all sides of Kashmiri opinion should be consulted in negotiations over the future of Kashmir.

An optimistic sign is the apparent sense of flexibility among many Kashmiris in seeking a solution.

Only 27% of all Kashmiris are in favour of the LoC in its present form (22% in Pakistani-administered Kashmir and 29% in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir.)
All-or-nothing

In three districts in Kashmir valley support for the present LoC falls to 1%, while in Kargil it is 0%.

However, if the movement across the LoC were to be fully liberalised, support for keeping the LoC rises dramatically to 85% overall.
Even in the Kashmir valley it rises to over 80%, and in Pakistan-administered Kashmir to over 90%.
It is perhaps the attitudes to the LoC that are most significant.

Both Pakistan and India have been very reluctant to consider openly any question that the LoC might be made permanent.

For Pakistan in particular the issue has been presented in all-or-nothing terms, and the possibility that the LoC might be made permanent has been taboo - as it is for some major Kashmiri groups.

Yet there are many signs that the LoC has become a de facto part of life, and for some a vital part of their security.

Indeed, only 8% said that they were not in favour of the LoC in any form.

As the poll showed, while 8% of the total population claimed to have friends or family on the other side, less than 1% had visited the other side of the LoC in the last five years.

In this light it is not surprising that in Poonch and Rajouri, two key border districts in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir, more than 90% are in favour of keeping the LoC.

The conversion of the LoC to a "soft" border reportedly played a large part in the Musharraf government's back channel talks with India.

The poll finding that across Kashmir around one quarter are strongly opposed to changing the LoC while a further half would accept it if it is liberalised gives a strong signal that this could be a fruitful area for further negotiation.

And the poll shows that there is more room than many had anticipated in Kashmiri opinion itself for negotiation.

The bigger question is whether the governments of India and Pakistan have the confidence, the power and the goodwill to meet the urgent aspirations of the Kashmiris for a peaceful and permanent settlement.
BBC News - Kashmir mulls comprehensive opinion poll


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## prodevelopment

Dude, this is the second time you're posting news stories about the SAME poll.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/59617-first-kashmir-survey-produces-startling-results.html

And that too after a discussion is already going on here:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/59373-first-kashmir-survey-produces-startling-results.html

Kindly shift over there all news stories about the poll which you want to post.

Thank You


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## Skeptic

Why bother over and over again: 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/59617-first-kashmir-survey-produces-startling-results.html
This thread was not only started but also bumped by you on 28th May. Please move to the existing thread if you have something new to add. Some Pakistani posters are doubting credibility of these polls? Your take on this. Or are you a group of more than one poster posting under the same user-name?


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## dabong1

username said:


> Okay fine... mainly I wanted to know the point of view of a person from Pakistan, without bringing in reason for war/conflict etc... I don't assert for source anymore...
> 
> I only wish the bolded part happens always... And if there was a situation because of which the insurgents or the so called freedom fighters were told to do some productive work, then let us hope that the same situation comes back forever...
> 
> And nobody from eiether side has to die and no development has to stop in eiether side of Kashmir... (because continuing this as far I see there will be no results at all (our side of Kashmir being with us, and your side of Kashmir being with you), our side sits a huge trained army and your side is sending some very less number of proxies, and this will continue forever if this is let to happen as it is now)...
> 
> 
> it was a good discussion with you thanks...



I want there to be peace in kashmir but its only going to happen once we follow through on a plan.
From my understanding musharaff accepted the key demand of the indian govt that cross border movement be stopped and that this one move would signal to the indians that the pakistani were showing "good will" and taking concrete measures.
Once we stopped the fighters from crossing it was your turn to make a major gesture which from my point of view you never did.
A few measures like letting a bus through is not the same as us stopping the fighters.
I think it started alright with the the first phase of the indian plan plan being a media blitz on indian tv over the issue to get a better consensus and and mentally preparing the population for resolution on the issue,but for some reason it moved away from this path toward taking full advantage of the lull in kashmir to build fences and reinforce bunkers ect.
From the intital demand that you wanted the fighters to stop crossing the LOC it started to increase with deamnds that training camps be closed and the leaders of the freedom fighters be handed over.
From my point of view i think if a small part of the indian army has started pulling out it would have been a good move (you could have always reinforced the police as counter measure).
The next move could have been to let human right groups in and give free access to the media and start to get the roads-bridges linked up again which could be opened the same day the training camps are closed down.
These are just rough ideas but we need to understand each others concerns and address them and move forward with a plan.

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## username

dabong1 said:


> I want there to be peace in kashmir but its only going to happen once we follow through on a plan.
> From my understanding musharaff accepted the key demand of the indian govt that cross border movement be stopped and that this one move would signal to the indians that the pakistani were showing "good will" and taking concrete measures.
> Once we stopped the fighters from crossing it was your turn to make a major gesture which from my point of view you never did.
> A few measures like letting a bus through is not the same as us stopping the fighters.
> I think it started alright with the the first phase of the indian plan plan being a media blitz on indian tv over the issue to get a better consensus and and mentally preparing the population for resolution on the issue,but for reason it moved away from this path toward taking full advantage of the lull in kashmir to build fences and reinforce bunkers ect.
> From the intital demand that you wanted the fighters to stop crossing the LOC it started to increase with deamnds that training camps be closed and the leaders of the freedom fighters be handed over.
> From my point of view i think if a small part of the indian army has started pulling out it would have been a good move (you could have always reinforced the police as counter measure).
> The next move could have been to let human right groups in and give free access to the media and start to get the roads-bridges linked up again which could be opened the same day the training camps are closed down.
> These are just rough ideas but we need to understand each others concerns and address them and move forward with a plan.



hmmm... there are some accusations about Indian Government's actions in your post... I have got absolutely no idea about the Kashmir problem in detail... so I cannot comment about that... 

Anyways I request my fellow countrymen not to take this reply by dabong1 for any debate... and dabong1, I wanted to ask a few specific things to get to know point of view about them from a Pakistani, and it is done.... 


Let us not discuss about the other problems as I have absolutely no idea about them...

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## KS

dabong1 said:


> I want there to be peace in kashmir but its only going to happen once we follow through on a plan.
> From my understanding musharaff accepted the key demand of the indian govt that cross border movement be stopped and that this one move would signal to the indians that the pakistani were showing "good will" and taking concrete measures.
> *Once we stopped the fighters from crossing it was your turn to make a major gesture which from my point of view you never did.*
> A few measures like letting a bus through is not the same as us stopping the fighters.
> I think it started alright with the the first phase of the indian plan plan being a media blitz on indian tv over the issue to get a better consensus and and mentally preparing the population for resolution on the issue,but for reason it moved away from this path toward taking full advantage of the lull in kashmir to build fences and reinforce bunkers ect.
> *From the intital demand that you wanted the fighters to stop crossing the LOC it started to increase with deamnds that training camps be closed and the leaders of the freedom fighters be handed over.*
> From my point of view i think* if a small part of the indian army has started pulling out it would have been a good move *(you could have always reinforced the police as counter measure).
> The next move could have been to let *human right groups in* and give free access to the media and start to get the *roads-bridges linked up again which could be opened the same day the training camps are closed down.*
> These are just rough ideas but we need to understand each others concerns and address them and move forward with a plan.



Yeah they stopped thru Kashmir ..but came thru Arabian sea and did a carnage in Mumbai.
Nothing wrong with the demand of closing down terrorist camps...gotta strike at the root.not prune the branches.
A part of the IA is already moved out and noe the primary responsibilty of security is with RR and JK police.
Amnesty International already let in Kashmir
For roads railways to open shut down the camps,cant risk the lives of civilians by bombing of railway,buses by militants

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## Prometheus

*Two hideouts smashed in J-K, arms seized*
2/June/2010
Jammu, June 2 (PTI) Two militant hideouts were smashed and a cache of arms, including two AK rifles and three grenades, were seized by security forces from separate places in Jammu and Kashmir today.

Acting on an information, a police team launched a search operation in Draman Trag belt of Banihal teshil of Ramban district and busted a hideout, officials said.

They recovered one AK rifle with 150 rounds, three grenades and one binocular, the officials said.

Another hideout was smashed in Arnas area of Mahore tehsil in Reasi district by 54 Rashtriya Rifles, they said adding, one AK-47 rifle, seven rounds and three detonators were seized from there.fullstory


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## pandamonkey

hal you should do a bit more research and see who is doing the killing and the rapping.


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## pandamonkey

Srinagar, May 29 : The Ghost of fake encounters has come again to haunt the Indian Army as a Indian Army major and four other people, including a territorial army soldier, were booked for the murder of three civilians in a gun battle said to be staged in Jammu and Kashmir on April 30, police officials said here on Saturday, May 29. 


Buzz up!The bodies of the three civilians &#8211; Shahzad Ahmad Khan, Riyaz Ahmad Lone and Muhammad Shafi Lone &#8211; were recovered on Friday,May 28 from a graveyard in Kalaroos village of Kupwara district. The bodies were identified by their relatives in the presence of a magistrate. 


Bashir Ahmad, a former special police officer, and his colleague Fayaz Ahmad were arrested for the murder of the three men belonging to Nadihal village in Rafiabad of north Kashmir. 

"Sustained interrogation of Lone and Ahmad unraveled the entire conspiracy. Abbas Hussain Shah, a jawan of the territorial army, is the kingpin of this nefarious conspiracy," a senior police officer told while unraveling the whole conspiracy.

Updating on the controversy the officer further added,"He, on the behest of an Army officer (major), conspired with Lone, Ahmad and Abdul Hamid Bhat to lure the three civilians. They were promised a wage of Rs.2,000 per day if they work as porters for the Army in the Machil sector of the Line of Control (LOC) where the unit of the involved major was posted,".

"After they fell into Hussain's trap, Lone, Ahmad and Bhat were taken to Sogam village in Kupwara where a vehicle was waiting for them to be taken to the LOC for the fake gun battle," he concluded .

Mob in Nadihal village invaded the house of Lone, the SPO who is one of the accused in this fake shoot out incident

The army is said to have killed three terrorists in Machil sector while trying to dislodge a infiltration bid on April 30.

OneIndia News

---------- Post added at 01:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:56 PM ----------

Jammu & Kashmir | Fake Encounters | India Army | Territorial Army Soldier | Indian Army Major | Civilians Murdered | Gun Battle - Oneindia News


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## pandamonkey

SRINAGAR: An Indian Army major and four other people, including a territorial army soldier, were booked for the murder of three civilians in a staged gun battle in Jammu and Kashmir April 30, police said on Saturday. 

The bodies of the three civilians &#8211; Shahzad Ahmad Khan, Riyaz Ahmad Lone and Muhammad Shafi Lone &#8211; were on Friday exhumed from a graveyard in Kalaroos village of Kupwara district and identified by their relatives in the presence of a magistrate. 

Bashir Ahmad, a former special police officer, and his accomplice Fayaz Ahmad were arrested for the disappearance of the three men belonging to Nadihal village in Rafiabad of north Kashmir. 

Abbas Hussain Shah, a jawan of the territorial army, who is the kingpin of the conspiracy, was also arrested on Saturday, police said. 

"Sustained interrogation of Lone and Ahmad unravelled the entire conspiracy. Abbas Hussain Shah, a jawan of the territorial army, is the kingpin of this nefarious conspiracy," a senior police officer said. 

"He, on the behest of an Army officer (major), conspired with Lone, Ahmad and Abdul Hamid Bhat to lure the three civilians. They were promised a wage of Rs.2,000 per day if they work as porters for the Army in the Machil sector of the Line of Control (LOC) where the unit of the involved major was posted," he said. 

"After they fell into Hussain's trap, Lone, Ahmad and Bhat were taken to Sogam village in Kupwara where a vehicle was waiting for them to be taken to the LOC for the fake gun battle," he added. 

Police sources also said police had become suspicious of the genuineness of "the LOC gunfight in Machil sector April 30 when the bodies of three slain people were handed over to them for burial". 

"All the three had bullet wounds in their heads which is highly unlikely in a gunfight between the security forces and the militants. All of them were dressed in summer clothes, which is not possible for militants crossing the snowbound LOC where the gunfight was claimed to have occurred," the police officer said. 

Meanwhile, an angry mob in Nadihal village torched the house of Lone, the SPO who is one of the conspirators in the murder of the three civilians. 

The army claimed to have killed three terrorists in Machil sector of the LOC after foiling an infiltration bid April 30. 

It was also claimed that a large quantity of arms and ammunition had been recovered from the slain terrorists. 

Army officer, jawan booked in J&K fake encounter case - India - The Times of India


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## pandamonkey

Beggar killed in fake encounter in J&K
Despite clear instructions that human rights violations will not be tolerated, there has been another instance where the Army has been found wanting.

The man who the Army claimed was a foreign militant killed in an encounter three days ago was identified as 70-year-old Habibullah Khan - a beggar from Kupwara in Jammu and Kashmir.

The revelation triggered immediate protests.

"He was killed and dubbed as militant by the Army in Handwara. When we saw his photo we identified him," said Shafiq Ahmad Khan, a relative.

The post-mortem report suggests the man was shot from close range. Police have lodged a murder case against the Army's 6 Rashtriya Rifles.

"The body was identified on Friday; he is a resident of Dolab. We are investigating and the FIR has already been lodged," said Kuldeep Khuda, DGP, Jammu and Kashmir.

On Wednesday, the Army claimed to have killed a foreign militant, found an AK Rifle and ammunition during a joint operation with the police. But the police denied being part of any such an encounter.

Today, the Army came up with another version that contradicts their earlier claims.

"We expect that the deceased was either being used as a guide or may have been held as human shield by terrorists who melted away into the jungles," said Defence spokesman Lt Col Brar.

But what about the arms and ammunition shown to establish that the man killed was a militant?

"The weapon which was found next to the terrorist may have been dropped, possibly by fleeing terrorists when they came under fire," said Brar.

It is not the first time when innocent people are killed in fake encounters and branded as foreign terrorist in Jammu and Kashmir. But what's more shocking this time is that a 70-year-old, frail, greybeard man was passed off as a success in the Army's fight against militancy. 
Beggar killed in fake encounter in J&K


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## pandamonkey

Why I screamed, rape us, take our flesh&#8217;

Laishram Gyaneswari was among the twelve Manipuri mothers who stripped themselves four years ago to shame the Indian Army. TERESA REHMAN meets the iconic protestor


IT&#8217;S EARLY HOURS on Imphal&#8217;s Nagamapal Road. Fateh Chand Jain, proprietor of the Indo-Myanmar Furniture Shop, is unlocking its wooden shutters. He deflects enquiries about his wife, Ima Laishram Gyaneswari, with a self-effacing wave: &#8220;You put your questions to her. I don&#8217;t interfere in her matters.&#8221; But press him a little more and he speaks with pride of how this 56-year-old Meitei homemaker joined a dozen Manipuri imas, mothers, on July 15, 2004, to lay storm to the Assam Rifles headquarters at Kangla Fort. Stripping naked, they thronged the gates, screaming their outrage at the rape and alleged custodial murder of Thangjam Manorama, a 32-year-old suspected member of the banned People&#8217;s Liberation Army. Jain recalls how he didn&#8217;t even know what his wife had left the house for that day; it was only in the afternoon that he got to know of the imas&#8217; unprecedented act of protest. &#8220;I had an inkling my wife might be involved. She had touched my feet before she left the house, something she usually does when she leaves for something important. But this time she didn&#8217;t tell me where she was going.&#8221;

&#8220;I&#8217;m very proud of her. Not everyone can be so brave, isn&#8217;t it?&#8221; he adds.

Gyaneswari joins us at this point, walking in fresh from prayers at the small temple in the courtyard. A science graduate from Ghana Priya Women&#8217;s College, Imphal, she had been an ardent political activist as a student, something she set aside after her marriage when bringing up four children took priority. Yet she remained an active member of the local chapter of the Meira Paibi, the mass-based Meitei women&#8217;s human rights movement.

Of enduring anguish was the incendiary Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act, 1958 (AFSPA). &#8220;Back in 1960,&#8221; Gyaneswari recounts, &#8220;some J&K Rifles personnel raped a girl named Chanu Rose; she committed suicide afterwards. Ever since then, there have been several incidents of molestation, rape and torture by army men; even pregnant women were not spared. All these pained me deeply.&#8221; Then there were the many young people taken away by army personnel, never to be seen again. &#8220;I know of many mothers who have gone insane after their sons and daughters disappeared.&#8221;

Thangjam Manorama was one of those taken into the security forces&#8217; custody, never to return. She was arrested on July 11, 2004. Her body was found the next day, dumped near her home, branded with marks of rape and torture. &#8220;Our Meira Paibi members saw her body being brought to the Regional Institute of Medical Science for the post-mortem, and they spread word of the incident. I was heart-broken when I heard. If this is what lies ahead for the young girls of Manipur, what will become of our community? We had to rise up to protect our girls,&#8221; says Gyaneswari.

On July 12, 2004, 32 local organisations came together in a conglomeration called Apunba Lup, to launch a movement to demand the AFSPA be repealed. But Gyaneswari and her associates felt this was not enough. Gathering for a closed-door meeting on July 13, they debated alternative ways of confronting the situation. &#8220;What emerged in our discussion was the feeling that we, the women of Manipur, were virtually naked &#8212; we were always insecure, forever at risk of molestation by the security forces. Why then should we not walk in the streets naked, what clearer protest could we make to teach a lesson not just to the security forces here but to the whole world?&#8221;

One hundred women were to congregate at Kangla Fort. Gyaneswari left home at 6 in the morning. &#8220;I touched my husband&#8217;s feet before I left,&#8221; she says. &#8220;In my mind, I 


Outrage: The July 15,2004, protest outside the Assam Rifles headquarters 
asked him to forgive me because I was going to do something very crucial and I couldn&#8217;t possibly tell him about it.&#8221; By the time she reached the gates of Kangla Fort, 30 women had assembled there; 10 more trickled by a little later. While these were nowhere near the numbers that had been hoped for, time was getting on. &#8220;We felt that if we delayed, the security forces might get suspicious and impose a curfew,&#8221; explains Gyaneswari. Steeling themselves to make a rush on the gate, the protestors did not realise that there were finally only 12 of them. &#8220;I did not count the number of women then. I had no awareness of anything. I was in my own world, shouting slogans, screaming at the Indian Army to rape us, take our flesh. All that filled my mind was the image of Manorama&#8217;s corpse,&#8221; she recalls.

The imas met the men of the Assam Rifles unit with fire in their hearts, Gyaneswari says. &#8220;It was the culmination of the rage and agony we had harboured for years. We challenged them to come out and rape us before everyone. We demanded they tell us what they were stationed here for: to protect our people or to rape our women.&#8221;

Returning home that day, Gyaneswari says she was apprehensive of how her family would react. &#8220;I was scared,&#8221; she smiles as she cuddles her grandchild, &#8220;I had not sought my husband&#8217;s permission. But he told me that I had done the right thing as whatever I had done was for the women of Manipur.&#8221; Her mother, Laishram Gambhini, and her four children all felt stirred by her courage. Says her elder daughter Girija, &#8220;My mother has inspired us to do something for our women. My mother&#8217;s willpower is very strong. I have never seen her weak or breaking down. She can face anything alone.&#8221;

FOUR YEARS later, does Ima Gyaneswari feel any change after that day of radical protest? &#8220;I do feel the armed forces are more cautious while dealing with women now. The acts of molestation, rape and torture have come down. But the inhuman crimes committed under the AFSPA&#8217;S cover persist. Anybody can still be arrested or killed without explanation.&#8221;

She is also surprised at the apathy of both the Central and the state governments to the Manipuri mothers&#8217; courageous protest. &#8220;The indifference of the government is really distressing. They are behaving as if they had neither seen nor heard a thing. Nobody ever came to meet us, not even to ask why 12 mothers of Manipur had to stage such a demonstration.&#8221;

But it cannot be this way forever, she feels. She speaks of Irom Sharmila Chanu, who has been on a hunger strike since November 2000, demanding that AFSPA be repealed. &#8220;Irom was awarded the Gwangju Prize for Human Rights 2007 by the Gwangju Asian Human Rights Folk School of South Korea. We have activists worldwide talking about the repeal of the Act. The government will have to listen to us sooner or later,&#8221; she says

Some preliminary steps have already been taken to phase out the Act. A review committee was formed and its recommendations have been submitted to the Centre. But will peace return once the Act is repealed? There are still 20 militant outfits active in Manipur, and bordering Myanmar is a safe haven for rebel groups.

Gyaneswari points out that the AFSPA was imposed to control the insurgency in Manipur, but it has actually inflamed the rebels. &#8220;The Act is harming the very social fabric of Manipur. Common people are suffering as this Act has led to more intense conflict between the insurgent groups and the armed forces. The Act has to go.&#8221; &#8226;

Tehelka - India's Independent Weekly News Magazine


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## pandamonkey

To cite some examples, in the year 1991, Indian army raped 30 women in Kunan- Poshpura in Kupwara aged between 18 to 85 years. 15 years have passed since the incident took place; neither justice nor compensation has knocked at the doors of these unfortunate mothers and daughters. While separatists address their plight by stating that they have lost their honour for a greater cause, state government orders an inquiry which remains inconclusive and guilty get rewards for having fought militancy tooth and nail

Militancy Toll; J&K Women Pay Heavy Price By Syed Junaid Hashmi


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## pandamonkey

hal since you didn't do the research i kindly provided it for you. by the way most of these articles are from indian sites.


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## pandamonkey

i have never been to the indian side of kashmir so i can't say anything on their behalf. the indian side of kashmir has alot of people of different religions and many of those kashmiris, who are either hindu or sikh want to remain part of india. As for the pakistani side of kashmir, i can say with 100&#37; certainty that the majority want to be part of pakistan, their is also a minority who want to be independent. But none of them want anything to do with india


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## k_n

^^^ Dude , stick to j&k . Dont go to the North East !

btw , the Kunan-Poshpura incident is mere speculation raised again and again by the seperatist . Its not first time some Pakistani has come up with the 'alleged' incident . 
Advise : Start a new thread highlighting Human Rights Abuses by Indian Security Forces and post your stuff there .

Indiscipline in the ranks has to be dealt by the Army leadership themselves , Pakistanis dont need to lose sleep over it . Yea , you guys are welcome to raise your voice against Indian record in Human Rights in different International fora , that'll be good use of time instead of venting out on a forum .


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## pandamonkey

sorry about going off topic. pakistanis don't need to lose sleep over it yes but kashmiris do, and being a kashmiri it surely worries me.
well in most of these human right cases by the indian army, it was the J&K police who spoke up first.


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## k_n

^^ Talk of Kunan Poshpura !
Im not denying there have been NO Human Rights abuses .
Fine , since you are a Kashmiri , Hw come you sporting a Pak flag ??
Do you possess State Subject Card ?? which district of J&K are you from ... n so on ...


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## pandamonkey

aaaa you do know that about azad kashmir right???????? if you don't then well, their is a kashmir on the pakistani side of the bordor, that is the part of kashmir where iam from, thus the reason i have a pakistani flag, also i have a pakistani flag next to my name because i love pakistan and want kashmir to be part of pakistan.


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## mehwish92




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## KS

*J-K Police recover solar-powered missiles*


*Srinagar: *Jammu and Kashmir Police's special operations group have recovered a cache of sophisticated missiles from a terrorist hideout in the state. The seizure of two sophisticated missiles which can be charged using solar power has sent the alarm bells ringing in the security establishment.


The missiles were positioned for an offensive action in the Gujjarpati forest area of Kupwara district. *The missiles can be fired without any human assistance as the solar panel on each missile is programmed to trap sun rays which can be converted into thermal energy to propel the weapon.*

Police believe that the missiles could be of either Chinese or Russian make.

*It is the first time that such missiles have been recovered in the state since the start of terrorism in 1990.*


Source - Click Here

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Funny news....even terrorists care for the environment..

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## forcetrip

Where is the link to this? Solar powered missiles that convert suns rays to thermal energy? By any chance would you know how big the panel might have to be or how long it will need these "suns rays" to power a 5 kilo package to its intended destination. How does it target itself? is a laptop attached to it acting as its fire control? I want a standing ovation for the person who reported this.


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## Tiger Prowling

Now we have ECHO friendly mujahideen's also. I hope UN might think calling them freedom fighter's now, they r saving the world from indian pollution

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## ejaz007

Here is one suck link. I do not know if the thread starter used this link.

J-K Police recover solar-powered missiles - India - ibnlive


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## TaimiKhan

Solar power panels are an alternative to the battery used for giving an electrical charge to the missile which sets it off. 

Remember how in videos of demolition, before the blast the firer presses a button which sets of the charges, similarly, for Rockets, an electrical charge is required to ignite the rocket engine or booster, so these solar panels would be doing that job.

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## KS

forcetrip said:


> Where is the link to this? Solar powered missiles that convert suns rays to thermal energy? By any chance would you know how big the panel might have to be or how long it will need these "suns rays" to power a 5 kilo package to its intended destination. How does it target itself? is a laptop attached to it acting as its fire control? I want a standing ovation for the person who reported this.



On seeing this news i was so amused that I forgot to post the link...anyways added it now...


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## EjazR

pandamonkey said:


> sorry about going off topic. pakistanis don't need to lose sleep over it yes but kashmiris do, and being a kashmiri it surely worries me.
> well in most of these human right cases by the indian army, *it was the J&K police who spoke up first.*



And that is PRECISELY my point. J&K police is slowly but surely replacing army in all areas. Part of the SOPs is now that any operation that Army or paramilitary groups do, the local unit of J&K police HAS to be notified and a joint operation has to take place.

Pakistan has suffered from 1000s of disappearances, particularly from military and intelligence agencies. Can you give me an incident where the local police arrested the army officer or intelligence officer for this there? I can give you many cases in India were paramilitary and army personnel involved HR violations were prosecuted and arrested by the local J&K police.


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## Xeric

*Pakistan has suffered from 1000s of disappearances, particularly from military and intelligence agencies. Can you give me an incident where the local police arrested the army officer or intelligence officer for this there? I can give you many cases in India were paramilitary and army personnel involved HR violations were prosecuted and arrested by the local J&K police. *

This would probably mean ours dont commit crimes against humanity as opposed to yours to which the world seems to agree. Logical enough?


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## Areesh

prodevelopment said:


> The fact that you find the Indian constitution both strange AND wierd is not surprising. After all, you haven't been subject to a real constitution in your life.
> 
> What is strange is that you think Indian constitution contradicts our past. Dear, we don't go about changing our entire constitution every 30 years like some people.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and if you think that a party is going on in our prisons, well, you are cordially invited to join



Yeah yeah don't tell me that you have a constitution and we don 't know about this word. We know about constitution and we also know that what the whole world do to foreign militants. You are releasing them may be because they aren't militants. Let me repeat what Taimi Khan said:



> Well militants are never let loose in such a way.
> 
> It looks more like these 25 have been proved to be innocent and now to safe their own face, the Indians are coming up with this gimmick that they are letting loose militants, as saying these innocent souls were kept in detention and tortured would further bring a bad name to their already you know what.



It has weight what he said. What you said is totally insane and illogical. 

Don't give us lecture about constitutions and laws. Constitution isn't the reason here.


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## RobbieS

> This would probably mean ours dont commit crimes against humanity as opposed to yours to which the world seems to agree. Logical enough?



Too saintly, aren't we?


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## raleigh22

Areesh said:


> It has weight what he said. What you said is totally insane and illogical.
> 
> Don't give us lecture about constitutions and laws. Constitution isn't the reason here.



Did you even read the article above?
They finished their jail term and the Supreme Court ordered them to be released, even though the Government wanted to wait for an equal number of Indians to be released.


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## Xeric

RobbieS said:


> Too saintly, aren't we?



There isnt an iota of doubt to that.

And i dont find people (except a few with vested interest like Aiasha Sadiqa) talking bad of activities of our forces.


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## ice_man

A pigeon from Pakistan suspected to be on a "spying mission" was caught on Thursday near the Indo-Pak border here, police said here.

The white pigeon carrying a Pakistani phone number and address on its body besides a rubber ring in its feet was found by border resident Harbans Lal Saini near his house and was brought to the police station here, 40 kms from Amritsar.

SHO Police station Ramdas Jagjit Singh Chahal said that he has informed his superiors who have directed that nobody should be allowed to visit the pigeon and an update would be passed to the SSP office atleast thrice in day.

Police suspect that the pigeon, which landed in Indian territory, may be on "special mission of spying" and might have been pushed by Pakistan intelligence agency ISI.

The pigeon is being kept in an air conditioned room which is being guarded by policemen. A medical examination of the bird was carried out by the doctor from the state animal husbandry department. 

After the recent killing of two Pakistan-based terrorists in a gunbattle in Gurdaspur district, special instructions were issued to border inhabitants to report anything suspicious to the police, the SHO said.

Chahal said he has been asked by his seniors not to leave the police station or to proceed on leave until the fate of pigeon was decided.

The number '303-6284620' was written in red on the pigeon's feathers along with a rubber stamp  Islamabad Wazirabad-Pakistan.

Chahal said they suspected that the pigeon must have landed on Indian soil from Pakistan with a message, which has not be traced so far.

... contd.

Pak 'spy' pigeon caught on border, police suspect ISI hand


 *HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!*


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## dabong1

Karthic Sri said:


> Yeah they stopped thru Kashmir ..but came thru Arabian sea and did a carnage in Mumbai.



Even though i dont agree that the mumbai attacks are linked to the kashmiri fighters but if we take your accusation to be true ,the gap between the time pakistan stopped the freedom fighters from crossing the LOC and the mumbai attacks is years......more then enough time for you to make a peace overture in kashmir.




Karthic Sri said:


> Nothing wrong with the demand of closing down terrorist camps...gotta strike at the root.not prune the branches.



Nothing wrong with us demanding the same and asking for the indian occupation forces to leave kashmir before we we make any move on fighters crossing the LOC or closing down military training facilities.




Karthic Sri said:


> Amnesty International already let in Kashmir



Until last week, India's federal government had never allowed any international human-rights group, let alone AI, to visit Kashmir and assess the human-rights situation in the strife-torn region, where armed rebellion against India has been going on since 1989.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/59617-first-kashmir-survey-produces-startling-results.html




Karthic Sri said:


> For roads railways to open shut down the camps,cant risk the lives of civilians by bombing of railway,buses by militants



Doesnt work like that......we stopped the fighters and its your turn to make a major move.If you do and we are satisfied that you have shown clear good will like we did ,then we will close the facilties down and take itstep by step from there.


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## prodevelopment

dabong1 said:


> Even though i dont agree that the mumbai attacks are linked to the kashmiri fighters but we take your accusation to be true the gap between the years of pakistan stopping the freedom fighters from crossing the LOC and the mumbai attacks is years......more then enough time for you to make a peace overture in kashmir.
> 
> 
> Doesnt work like that......we stopped the fighters and its your turn to make a major move.If you do and where satisfied that you have shown clear good will like we did then we will close the facilties down and take itstep by step from there.



India HAS made major peace overtures. India has offered to make the LoC into the international border and give up it's claim over P O K and NA. It is Pakistan which refuses to recognize this.



dabong1 said:


> Nothing wrong with us demanding the same and asking for the indian occupation forces to leave kashmir before we we make any move on fighters crossing the LOC or closing down military training facilities.



There is a difference between Army and guerrilla forces. We are not asking Pakistan to remove their Army from P O K. Just the militants. Apples and Oranges.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## dabong1

Pride said:


> Sir you might want the same but will Pakistan be ready for the same. Just to give you reference AJK map is not having G-B area which Pak consider their states.
> Azad Kashmir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Am i supposed to be shocked?
We go off the map that the United Nations said.....it makes no difference to pakistan as a free kashmir will be more pro pakistan then it will be pro indian.
Do you really think the kashmir govt would stop acccess to pakistan to the KK highway-china?





Pride said:


> Sir thanks for clearing it thousand one time but did you ever notice ethinc group of AJK. I found Kashmiris were in minority and their min language was Urdu (Not Dongri ??) and major ethnic groups were Jaat, Gujjars, Rajputs and Punjabis etc. Please have reference:
> 
> Ethnic groups of Azad Kashmir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



So the same Jaat, Gujjars, Rajputs in IOK or other lingustic-racial groups can't be classed as kashmiri like the dogra speakers ,the people of ladakh or the bakarwal?
Does this logic also apply to india or is only exclusive to kashmir?

PS we have no problem if you want to keep the vote to only kashmiri speakers.




Pride said:


> So are you going to have vote on the basis of pre-1948 or on current basis. You personally may not have problem but yes Pakistan do have as most of the people may have to leave Mirpur/Muzzafarabad territory.



Just as long as the same conditions also apply to IOK we have no problem.......pakistan has no problem and why should it,the people of kashmir will pro pakistan anyway.




Pride said:


> Well, I always hear Kashmiri Muslims were killed by Indian Army they were never forced after all according to you guys No Kashmiri wants to stay in any other state of India.



_4) Will you consider J&K Sikhs, Pandits, Lamas (from Laddakh area) or just Kashmiri Muslims (I hear only this word in this forum)?_

You asked a question and got a straight answer.......all kashmiris no matter what faith-language group-race they come from can vote.

I am as concerned about the hindus of kashmir as you are concerned about the muslims of kashmir.





Pride said:


> Because your freedom fighters came in 80s and forced Kashmiri Pandits out of J&K territory. And most of the time these so called freedom fighters are involved in ethnic cleansing of Hindus/Sikhs. Remember when Bill Clinton came to India 28 Sikhs in J&K have been killed.



Chittisinghpura Massacre
A few days later the Indian authorities released pictures of the corpses of the five alleged culprits, who had apparently been killed in a shoot out. The timing of the incident, and Clinton&#8217;s implicit endorsement of New Delhi&#8217;s account of it, helped to solidify what is now seen as a critical turning point in US-India relations.

So far, so straightforward. Except that a number of sceptics, including Pankaj Mishra, a London-based writer who arrived in the village the following morning, rejected New Delhi&#8217;s account. Assisted by a court order that the five bodies be exhumed, local activists proved that the deceased were innocent local Muslims who had been picked up by the authorities, dressed in battle fatigues and then killed in cold blood. Unusually, none of the various Kashmiri separatist and terrorist groups claimed responsibility for the first massacre. Mishra, an Indian national, is clearly in sympathy with Amnesty International and others who allege that Indian security forces staged both massacres to drive a point home to Clinton. 



Pride said:


> I have No issues to involve China or anyone in this matter. I don't talk on behalf of India. I am talking for the favor of J&K people and if that is their land then whomsoever they are they have to be included. And please let me know which part of Kashmir China gifted you. Everyone knows that you gifted them a big part of Karakoram pass and part of Kashmir which is part of Uigyhur.



If you have no problem with china being involved in the process then great. 





Pride said:


> Sir from above points this is clearly mentioned stance of India and most important J&K people. Myths were created by you guys named AJK and for you Kashmir is only Muslim area that is why in 1948 Pakistan has attacked the same.



I think you post a poll and get the pakistan members to vote if they want non muslims to vote and be a part of kashmir........what will the the excuse be after that?


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## dabong1

prodevelopment said:


> India HAS made major peace overtures. India has offered to make the LoC into the international border and give up it's claim over P O K and NA. It is Pakistan which refuses to recognize this.









prodevelopment said:


> There is a difference between Army and guerrilla forces. We are not asking Pakistan to remove their Army from P O K. Just the militants. Apples and Oranges.



The "difference" is that the people of AJK dont mind the army being around ,while the people in IOK do mind the army being around......you dont get large groups of paramilitary-military people roaming the streets with guns in AJK trying to suppress the people.
Likewise the people support the freedom fighters and after all it about what the people want.


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## dabong1

Skeptic said:


> Why bother over and over again:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/59617-first-kashmir-survey-produces-startling-results.html
> This thread was not only started but also bumped by you on 28th May. Please move to the existing thread if you have something new to add. Some Pakistani posters are doubting credibility of these polls? Your take on this. Or are you a group of more than one poster posting under the same user-name?
> 
> Dude, this is the second time you're posting news stories about the SAME poll.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir...g-results.html
> 
> And that too after a discussion is already going on here:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir...g-results.html
> 
> Kindly shift over there all news stories about the poll which you want to post.
> 
> Thank You



Dont get you knickers in a twist......ask an admin to sort it.
What your so bothered about anyway......nothing to with the results of the polls is it by any chance?


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## EjazR

xeric said:


> *Pakistan has suffered from 1000s of disappearances, particularly from military and intelligence agencies. Can you give me an incident where the local police arrested the army officer or intelligence officer for this there? I can give you many cases in India were paramilitary and army personnel involved HR violations were prosecuted and arrested by the local J&K police. *
> 
> This would probably mean ours dont commit crimes against humanity as opposed to yours to which the world seems to agree. Logical enough?



Or how about the fact that the police in Pakistan has no power to indict army or intelligence personnel?

The recent case mentioned here of the fake encouters of three person in Machil was brought to the media and the public by the J&K police.

There was no hurriyat doing strikes or LeT demanding an enquiry into the fake encounters or public outcry before. It was J&K police with due diligence from the missing person reports that dug the truth out. Atleast you have to admit this and give credit to the J&K police where its due.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Chinna Gounder

And did u know only 2% were in favour of accecssion to Pakistan..?


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## EjazR

*Rs 2,000 daily: on this promise men shot in encounter went with Army*

Rs 1.5 lakh in cash, two bottles of whiskey and two of beer &#8212; it was with this that officials of 4 Rajputana Rifles allegedly hoped to cover their tracks in the &#8220;fake encounter&#8221; on the Line of Control in Kashmir that has now led to the exhumation of three bodies.

Abbas Hussain Shah, a jawan with 161 Battalion of the Territorial Army in Baramulla, has told police interrogators that he, his brother who works for the police, an &#8220;Army source&#8221; and a counter-insurgent were offered the cash and liquor for arranging the three men, for what he says he believed to be a trip across the Line of Control &#8220;to trap militants&#8221;.

He has said the three &#8212; Shahzad Ahmad Khan, Mohammad Shafi Lone and Riyaz Ahmad Lone &#8212; went along happily, at the promise of earning &#8220;Rs 2,000 per day&#8221; working for the Army.

Pleading that &#8220;I didn&#8217;t do anything wrong&#8221;, Shah has told the police that he was &#8220;only following orders of my officers&#8221;, specifically of &#8220;Major Upender&#8221;. 

Following a probe report handed over by the Jammu and Kashmir Police on Sunday to 15 Corps commander Lt Gen N C Marwah, the Army has ordered a high-level inquiry into the case. The police probe accuses Major Upender and his team members, including two Subedar Majors and a Sepoy, of entering into a criminal conspiracy with &#8220;locals of Rafiabad&#8221;, including Shah, and kidnapping three youths on the pretext of providing them jobs.

&#8220;Major sahib was G2 at Divisional headquarters at Baramulla where I first met him,&#8221; Shah told interrogators. &#8220;I arranged sources for him and I introduced Hameed (the Army source) to him. He (Major) was transferred but he kept in touch. He told me that he would talk to my current Major when he asked me to bring Hameed, Bashir (the counter-insurgent) and the three men to Kalaroos camp in Kupwara.&#8221;

Based on the interrogation of Shah and Hameed, police believe that officers of the 4 Rajputana Battalion of the Army were in a hurry to stage the alleged fake encounter as the unit was being shifted out of the Valley within a week. The three men were killed in the intervening night of April 29 and 30.

Shah said he came in touch with &#8220;Major Upender&#8221; after he took over as G2 at 92 Divisional Headquarters at Baramulla. Shah said his &#8220;job&#8221; was to roam around Baramulla and adjoining villages to gather any useful information. &#8220;Major sahib would always ask me to arrange sources. I convinced Hameed to become Major sahib&#8217;s source. We gave him a new name, Doctor sahib,&#8221; the TA jawan told interrogators. &#8220;In April 2010, Major sahib asked us to arrange a few young men and told me that we have to send them across to Pakistan to bring weapons and track (a group of militants) whom we could trap then. Major sahib promised to pay them and I asked Hameed for help.&#8221;

Hameed had earlier introduced Bashir Ahmad Lone, a counter-insurgent from Nadihal village in Baramulla, to Shah. Hameed talked to Bashir to arrange the men.

A few days later, Bashir reported that he had convinced Shahzad Ahmad Khan, Mohammad Shafi Lone and Riyaz Ahmad Lone from his village and offered them Rs 2,000 a day for work for the Army at the LoC. The trip to the 4 Rajputana camp in Kalaroos was fixed for April 27. Bashir arranged a Tata Sumo and along with Hameed and the three men travelled to the camp.

&#8220;Major asked us to go back home and come on April 29 as the weather was not good. On April 29, Abbas accompanied us,&#8221; Hameed told police. &#8220;Shahzad, Shafi and Riyaz were happy that they would be paid good money. They were talking on their cellphones and joking with each other. Abbas bought some Coke and chips. At Kupwara, he took us to a hotel where we all had kanti (fried boneless mutton) with naan. We even smoked charas.&#8221;

At Kalaroos, Hameed told interrogators, the Major was waiting with two Army vehicles. &#8220;He asked Shahzad, Shafi and Riyaz to get into one truck while he asked us to board the other. He asked Bashir to leave along with the Sumo.&#8221;

Next morning, Shah and Hameed say, they were given Rs 1.5 lakh by the Major along with the whiskey and beer as their reward. Hameed said Shah left with the Major.

The police believe that Shahzad, Shafi and Riyaz were taken to Sona Pindi on the Line of Control, shot dead in a staged encounter and later dubbed &#8220;unidentified infiltrating militants&#8221;. The Army also claimed to have recovered five AK rifles, ammunition and Pakistani currency from them.

The story started to unravel when on May 10, families of the three men in Nadihal registered a missing report with the police, and reported that they had left home with Bashir. Analysing the call details of the three and Bashir, police found they had all gone to Kalaroos. Bashir was picked up on May 21, followed Hameed&#8217;s arrest. Police officially sought Shah&#8217;s custody from the Commandant of his 161 TA battalion, and on May 27, he too was arrested.


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## Xeric

*Or how about the fact that the police in Pakistan has no power to indict army or intelligence personnel?*

Though that is quite true to an extent, but then we do have a very strong internal accountability system in place within the Army, which infact i see lacking in the indian army for the simple reason that had this system being practiced in your case the ratio of atrocities, rapes and target killings would have ultimately gone down to zero over the past 60 years, but alas!


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## dabong1

Chinna Gounder said:


> And did u know only 2&#37; were in favour of accecssion to Pakistan..?



So what!........they did not want to join india also ,and at the end of the day a independent kashmir will be pro pakistan......so why should we care

And also pakistan has always backed the right of the kashmiris to choose what they want.


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## IBRIS

*Someone is trying too hard* But Dabong try a little bit harder.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/59617-first-kashmir-survey-produces-startling-results.html

*
ALSO THIS ONE*
http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/59373-first-kashmir-survey-produces-startling-results.html

Are you suffering from bypolar disease or you behave like this in real life.


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## We Are Soldiers

If you have the guts then break the nuts and take Kashmir, as simple as that..


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## IBRIS

*Someone is trying too hard* But Dabong try a little bit harder.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/59617-first-kashmir-survey-produces-startling-results.html

*
ALSO THIS ONE*
http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/59373-first-kashmir-survey-produces-startling-results.html

Are you suffering from bypolar disease or you behave like this in real life.


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## EjazR

*http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?265666*

_The first-ever survey on both sides of Kashmir threw up some startling results: only 2 per cent of people in Jammu and Kashmir want to join Pakistan, and 43 per cent of Kashmiris overall prefer independence. But what&#8217;s even more startling is that the survey, titled &#8216;Kashmir: Paths to Peace&#8217;, is the brainchild of Saif al Islam al Gaddafi, the son of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi. The report was prepared by Dr Robert W. Bradnock of King&#8217;s College London and a senior fellow at Chatham House, the UK&#8217;s most influential think-tank. Nishtha Chugh spoke to Bradnock. Excerpts:_

*What interest did Gaddafi&#8217;s son Saif have in conducting the survey?*

We first came in touch in 2002. Saif was then running a charity in Libya which was trying to help (among others) Kashmiri refugees, mainly in Pakistan. He had visited the refugee camps in 2001, when Kashmir was dominated by militancy. He was concerned with the humanitarian nature of the crisis. In his early 30s then, he had embarked on his post-graduate degree in the London School of Economics. That PhD (completed last year) and his research interests were concerned with the role of civil society in resolving disputes. He became interested in Kashmir during his studies. Saif was also concerned with the global implications of the spread of terrorism, and that Libya should be seen as a peacemaker.

*How did Saif come up with the idea of a survey in Kashmir?*

The idea of the survey was entirely his. He had written a paper about Kashmir in &#8217;02 which hasn&#8217;t been published yet. He wrote about it as he was interested in the historical nature of the dispute itself. But as we discussed its complexities in the modern period, he felt the Kashmiris should be consulted, to know how they thought on the issue of self-determination, and how they perceived their problems. The survey became a joint effort of the King&#8217;s College London, IPSOS-Mori and their associates in India and Pakistan. Chatham House came into the process only when the report was ready.

*How were the surveyors recruited? Could there be a margin of bias creeping in?*

They were all locally recruited and trained in Srinagar, in Jammu and Muzaffarabad. The real acid test of independence is in the results. In many respects, the results are not what people would give under duress. For example, on the Indian side where the military presence is very strong, you won&#8217;t expect there will be pressure from the government on respondents to say, &#8220;I will vote for independence.&#8221; Yet the vote for India in J&K was only just over 28 per cent. In Pakistan, you won&#8217;t expect only 50 per cent of Azad Kashmir (*** to Indians) to say they wanted to join Pakistan.

*Have you visited the region? *

I went to the Valley in India in &#8217;03. The military presence was obvious. I had gone to AJK in 1998. Many people in India think AJK is more backward. It doesn&#8217;t strike a visitor like that. Pakistan has put a lot of money into infrastructure. The environment does not look any worse than on the Indian side. It&#8217;s very difficult to say unequivocally which side is better. However, the visible signs of the dispute are undoubtedly more on the Indian side.

*Why do more people in *** support violence as a way to end the dispute?*

There may be two reasons. On the Pakistan side, militants have always been talked about as freedom fighters. They are fighting on the other side and not within their community. Secondly, it&#8217;s producing a very big counter-terrorist reaction from the forces. And that leads to its own brutality.

*One result that will surprise people in AJK is that the support for joining Pakistan in J&K is just 2 per cent overall. And particularly outside AJK, in Pakistani Punjab, there&#8217;ll be a sense of disbelief.*

*What policy suggestions would you make to the Indian government?*

The most startling thing in the poll is that a very large proportion of Kashmiris don&#8217;t like the LoC as it stands today but would be happy to have it if it were opened up and if there were genuine free movement of goods. I wouldn&#8217;t suggest turning the LoC into an international border as this takes away the option of making it more porous&#8212;and that&#8217;s what the Kashmiris want. The diplomatic challenge for India and Pakistan is to ensure that any liberalisation of the border is not accompanied by a resurgence of terrorist/militant movement. And this highlights in essence that the solution to this problem doesn&#8217;t lie just in Kashmir, it lies in relations between India and Pakistan and a building of trust.


----------



## EjazR

*Was arms racket being run to execute fake encounters?*

Three Kashmiri villagers were killed in an alleged fake encounter a month ago. The Army had labelled them as militants, claimed to have seized five AK rifles and over 200 rounds of ammunition from them.

But questions are being raised about the recovery shown by the Army in the alleged fake encounter.

The police are now investigating if an arms racket was being run to execute fake encounters. The rot seems to have set in long ago.

In 2001, the Army claimed to have killed five Lashkar-e-Toiba militants in Pathribal, seized five AK rifles and ammunition. Later, a CBI probe indicted five Army officers for a staged shootout.

In 2005, 27 villagers from Charar-e-Sharief were made to surrender in Nagrota, Jammu. A police probe indicted a Brigadier and a Colonel but didn't say where the arms came from.

Two years later, in Ganderbal, Police and Army killed five people, dubbed them as foreign militants and claimed recovery of arms and ammunition.

And just two weeks before the Machil encounter, the Army killed a 70-year old beggar in Handwara, claiming that he was a foreign militant who had an AK rifle and ammunition.

Despite probes into fake encounters, the source of arms and ammunition shown as recovery has seldom been established.

"Almost every encounter now has a question mark," said Omar Abdullah, Chief Minister, Jammu and Kashmir.

As Prime Minister Manmohan Singh visits the Valley on Monday, the Chief Minister plans to take up the issue.

*While a probe is on in the Machil fake encounter, Army sources have told NDTV:

* They are going to be totally transparent in this case
* It will maintain high standards of compliance with human right laws and regulation
* Will extend full cooperation*


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## blueRhino

dabong1 said:


> Kargil for Lahore declaration! Nice
> 
> 
> The "difference" is that the people of AJK dont mind the army being around ,while the people in IOK do mind the army being around......you dont get large groups of paramilitary-military people roaming the streets with guns in AJK trying to suppress the people.
> Likewise the people support the freedom fighters and after all it about what the people want.



yea, even the people of AJK dont mind of islamic terrorist being there. *FREEDOM FIGHTERS* !, Are you talking about the freedom fighters like LET, JeM, Talliban,Pakistan-Taliban, Al Qaeda, Sipah-e-Sohaba Pakistan and Lashkar-e-Jhangvi , who are paying back their master PA in a nice manner


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## blueRhino

KeenGuy said:


> so much violence on Indian side of Kashmir. Yet when you go to Pakistan's side of Kashmiri there is *PEACE.*
> 
> Hmmm, has India ever thought about this. They need to back their bags and leave.
> 
> Daily protests in Indian occupied Kashmir, daily rape of women in Indian occupied Kashmir.
> 
> This is the so called "peaceful and loving" India.



The artifical violence is created by so called *FREEDOM  FIGHTERS*, for which PA is harvesting heavily. Even in Balochistan locals dont like PA army. Why can the PA army pack their bags and leave?


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## blueRhino

ejaz007 said:


> *Canada denies visa to ex-Indian army officer for IHK abuses*
> 
> NEW DELHI: Just days after Canada refused visa to a retired Indian trooper of Border Security Force (BSF) on charges of involvement in human rights violations in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK), one more incident of a denial of visa to a retired Lieutenant General of the Indian army by the Canadian Home Office on the same grounds has come to light.
> 
> A retired Lieutenant General of the Indian army, AS Bahia, who served as a member of the Defence Appellate Tribunal, told the media that the Canadian Home Office refused to grant him a visa because he had served in the sensitive location of IHK and his unit, the Rashtriya Rifles (RR), was involved in human rights violations in IHK.
> 
> The issue first came to light when the Canadian High Commission denied visa last week to a retired Border Security Force (BSF) trooper Fateh Singh Pandher on grounds that he was associated with a notoriously violent force that indulged in human rights violations in IHK. Canada has denied visas to a member of the Indian Armed Forces Tribunal, three serving Brigadiers, a retired Lieutenant General and a former senior IB official on the grounds that their organisations have been engaging in violence. In another revelation, two Brigadiers were denied visas in 2008 and another in 2009. A retired Lieutenant General RN Bhatia was also refused visa in 2008.
> 
> Separately, India said on Thursday it had summoned Canada&#8217;s high commissioner and lodged a strong protest after several officials linked with its security establishment were denied Canadian visas.
> 
> The visa rejections, on grounds of human rights records, came to light just weeks before Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is to travel to Toronto for a G20 meeting. Indian Foreign Minister SM Krishna expressed hope that Ottawa would solve the issue appropriately. iftikhar gilani/agencies
> 
> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan



For you knowledge, Canada had officialy aplologized for this? 

*Canada apologizes to India over denial of visas*

By CHARMAINE NORONHA
Associated Press Writer
updated 3:21 p.m. ET, Fri., May 28, 2010

TORONTO - Canada apologized to India on Friday for denying visas to some of its serving and retired military and intelligence officials.

The Press Trust of India news agency had reported that Canada rejected the visa requests on the ground that these Indian officials had served in the Indian portion of Kashmir, where rights groups have accused Indian forces of human rights violations.

Reports about the visa rejections come just weeks before Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is to travel to Toronto for a G-20 summit meeting.
Story continues below &#8595;advertisement | your ad here

Canada's Immigration Minister Jason Kenney said in a statement Friday that his country has the highest regard for India, its government institutions and processes.

"The government of Canada therefore deeply regrets the recent incident in which letters drafted by public service officials during routine visa refusals to Indian nationals cast false aspersions on the legitimacy of work carried out by Indian defense and security institutions," said Kenney.


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## blueRhino

*Atrocities Of Pakistan&#8217;s Mercenary Army*

By Abdus Sattar Ghazali

17 April, 2010
Countercurrents.org

More than 70 civilians were killed and scores injured in an air raid on April 10 by the Pakistani jet fighters in the tribal region along Pakistan&#8217;s northern border with Afghanistan. According to eyewitness accounts, a bomb was dropped on a house in the remote village of Sara Walla in the Khyber tribal agency. The fighter jets returned as villagers tried to dig out people from the rubble two hours later.

According to Ikramullah Jan Kukikhel, a tribal elder, the death toll is likely to reach up to 80. He said between 20 and 30 others were injured when the house of Hameed Khan Kukikhel was bombed by the jets, killing women, children and elderly people. "All of those killed were civilians, 100&#37; innocent," he told the press.

*Ironically, the Kukikhel are with the government. Two sons of Hameed Khan Kukikhel (whose house was bombed) were serving in the para-military Frontier Constabulary. &#8220;We have never joined the Taliban or any other fundamentalist group. We are normal people who just want peace for the country," said Ikramullah Jan Kukikhel.*

However, the Army spokesman Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas insisted that any of the dead were civilians, saying the army had intelligence that militants were gathering at the site of the strike. As army was adamant not to concede the civilian casualties, an embarrassed civilian administration offered compensation to 71 victims of the tragic incident.

According to a survivor of the attack an official from the Khyber administration visited him and gave him a check of Rs 20,000 ($220) to compensate for the loss of four relatives, including his brother.

Pakistan&#8217;s mercenary Army is conducting massive operations against the militants in the tribal region behind a smoke screen. No journalists are permitted inside the war zone. Reports about the fighting and casualties of the so-called Taliban and army as well as civilian victims are primarily based on the information, misinformation and propaganda released by government or military spokesmen.

About 150,000 Pakistani army troops have been involved in operations in Swat and the Federally Administered Tribal Areas along the Afghanistan border, including Bajur and South Waziristan. A major operation was launched in Swat in November 2007. Another operation in Bajur commenced in August 2008. South Waziristan operation began in October 2009.

Under US pressure, the latest operation was launched last month in North Waziristan where more than 300 alleged militants have been killed in three weeks of constant air-strikes and occasional ground clashes. The North Waziristan operation is seen crucial for U.S.-led forces across the border in Afghanistan. The United States and its NATO allies long have been pressing for action in North Waziristan, an alleged base for al-Qaida and the Haqqani network, described as one of the most powerful insurgent groups in Afghanistan.

According to Pakistan Army&#8217;s website, over 3,000 militants have been killed and almost 4,000 apprehended in the military operations in the tribal region. Pakistan Army and paramilitary Frontier Corps suffered more than 1400 fatal casualties. The army has neither released the names of those arrested nor the killed militants. After any encounter or raid there is a terse statement by the Army Public Relations Department giving the number of casualties without any names. Since the region is a no-go area for the media, the army claims cannot be confirmed.

A recent Human Rights group report provides an insight into the US-backed brutal Army operations in the volatile region. Since 2002, the United States has provided $11.6 billion in military aid and $6 billion in development assistance, according to Congressional Research Service figures. The administration has requested an additional $3 billion in combined aid for 2011.

*Extrajudicial execution*

*The Human Rights Watch said earlier this month that it had documented the extrajudicial execution of as many as 300 alleged Taliban supporters and sympathizers in the area around Mingora, the Swat capital. The group was able to interview more than 100 Swat families in February and March. A report on the alleged abuses, including torture, home demolitions, illegal detentions and disappearances, is scheduled for release later this month.*

The New York-based Human Rights Watch said the Army was targeting civilians who had voiced support for the Taliban when they controlled Swat or were suspected of providing them food or shelter. "*People are taken away, and sometimes they turn up a few days or weeks later having been tortured. Sometimes they disappear. Sometimes their body is dumped with a bullet in the head,*" said Tom Malinowski, director for the Human Rights Watch.

He also described cases of illegal detention. "*A son has gone off to fight with the Taliban, and so another son is taken as a hostage," he said. "And the father is told: We will release son No. 2 when son No. 1 turns himself in."*

The army is holding about 2,500 detainees from the operations in Swat and elsewhere in the north and west, about 1,000 of them in Swat. The military has no judicial arm to prosecute them and has complained that Pakistan's slow-moving civilian judiciary was unable to handle them. Ali Dayan Hasan, the Human Rights Watch&#8217;s senior South Asia analyst, said the military has not released the names of those being held or allowed outside access to them.

*Accusations of rights abuses by the Pakistani military are not new. In September 2009, two months after the Pakistani Army wrested control of the Swat Valley from the militants scores of bodies were found dumped on the streets. Human rights advocates and local residents said it is the work of the military.*

*The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) sent a fact-finding mission to Swat which documented accounts of not only extrajudicial killings but also the discovery of mass graves.*

The exact number of alleged killings was impossible to calculate because the presence of human rights monitors was limited by the authorities, the commission said. The International Committee of the Red Cross, which investigates illegal killings, was ordered by the military to leave Swat in August last year over matters unrelated to the killings.

*Bodies, some with torture marks and some with limbs tied and a bullet in the neck or head, have been found on the roads of Mingora and in rural areas that were militant strongholds. Reports on Sept. 1 in two national daily newspapers, Dawn and The News, said the bodies of 251 people had been found dumped in Swat.
*

&#8220;The number of killings suggests that the military is seeking to silence any enthusiasm for the Taliban and to settle accounts for heavy army casualties,&#8221; the New York Times quoted an unnamed senior provincial official.

*If the army atrocities in May-July 2009 operation against the militants in Swat are any indication then we may find extra-judicial killings and mass graves in South Waziristan, North Waziristan and other tribal regions as uncovered in Swat.*

Refugees crisis

Pakistan army&#8217;s operations in the tribal territories have caused a big humanitarian crisis. At least 1.2 million people have been displaced by the latest operations. Last year more than three million people were displaced from the Swat Valley.

Jalozai, which shelters more than 100,000 homeless, remains the largest displacement camp in Asia according to the U.N. "It's still one of the largest displacement crises in the world, and it has been forgotten," says Kilian Kleinschmidt, of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR). Ten refugee camps are now operating in NWFP which is recently renamed as Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa.

Abdus Sattar Ghazali is the Executive Editor of the online magazine American Muslim Perspective: American Muslim Perspective email: asghazali@gmail.com

===========================
Terrorist should be killed, but is this the way for a so called professional Army?. Even the Mumbai attackers were buried not thrown away in to peaces.


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## blueRhino

**** women on streets opposing pakistani army's atrocities. *


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## JAMESHAWK85




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## blueRhino

Not for the fainted.....

They are forcing the man to accept that he has connections with taliban


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## shiningindia

yaar. everything is fair in war and love.


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## shiningindia

JAMESHAWK85 said:


> YouTube - Muslim Pakistani army rapes 200,000 innocent Bangladeshi women



i am again saying "everything is fair in war and love"


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## JAMESHAWK85

i am again saying "everything is fair in war and love



this show army ethic,and its true face of there country


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## SinoIndusFriendship

JAMESHAWK85 said:


> i am again saying "everything is fair in war and love
> 
> 
> 
> this show army ethic,and its true face of there country



Is that what they taught you in the Indian Army???


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## JAMESHAWK85

no this is show by pakistan army what they do in bangladesh


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## GUNNER

Kashmir Fake Encounter: Major Suspended

SOURCE  NDTV [06-June-2010]

An Army Major named in the alleged fake encounter case in Jammu and Kashmir has been suspended pending inquiry. Another Army Colonel has also been removed from command.

In the said encounter in Machil, three civilians were allegedly killed in a staged encounter after being lured for job in the Army.

The action came after Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah met senior officials of the Army and police at a high-level meeting today. 
He chaired a Unified Headquarters meeting in Srinagar over the recent alleged fake encounter.

The meeting was attended by senior core commanders of the Army, state's police chief and state intelligence officials.
The officials discussed all the alleged fake encounters including the one in Machil.

Even as more complaints about alleged fake encounters in Kashmir are being investigated, there's cynicism, which is stemming from the fact that though several Army officers were indicted by the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) and the police in the Pathribal and Ganderbal fake encounters, no action was taken. 

Commenting on the issue, CM Omar Abdullah had earlier said, "There is a need for transparency. Army is judge, jury and hangman.


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## kashith

Deep Roots in Kashmir Tug Hindus Back Home - NYTimes.com

SRINAGAR, Kashmir  The ceremony is simple and common. A Hindu priest lights a fire, places some herbs, clarified butter and other offerings atop it and through its peculiar alchemy the smoke purifies everything it touches.




Kuni Takahashi for The New York Times
A Muslim insurgency forced many Pandits to flee the Kashmir Valley in the 1990s. The once-abandoned shrine has reopened, and a worker repaired its paintings of Hindu gods. More Photos »
But nothing about this Maha Yaghya ritual performed in the once-abandoned Vichar Nag shrine here on a recent Saturday night was simple. A week of downpours left the shrines grounds waterlogged and putrid. The wood was wet and the fire would not start.

But most peculiar was the ceremonys location, astride one of the worlds most fractious religious fault lines, between two nuclear-armed neighbors who have fought three wars, two of them over the land on which the shrine sits.

Twenty years ago, nearly 400,000 Hindus fled the Kashmir Valley, fearful of a separatist insurgency by the areas Muslim majority. Now they are trickling back, a sign to many here that the Kashmir Valley, after years of violence and turmoil, is settling in to an uneasy but hopeful peace.

The valleys upper-caste Hindus, Pandits as they are known, are reconnecting with their ancestral home, a few to stay and even larger numbers to visit. More than a dozen shrines have reopened in recent years, said Sanjay Tickoo, a Kashmiri Pandit who never left the valley and is now trying to entice those who left to return.

Their presence was once part of what made the Kashmir Valley a unique and idyllic patch of India, filled with apple orchards and shimmering fields of saffron framed by spiky, snow-capped peaks. A well-to-do but not overly powerful minority, the Pandits lived for centuries in relative harmony with their Muslim neighbors.

Kashmirs mosaic of relatively peaceful coexistence first began to crack during the partition of British India, in 1947. But it was more than a decade of insurgency beginning in 1989 that turned the region into the battleground of the fierce rivalry between Hindu-majority India and Muslim-dominated Pakistan, who each control a portion of Kashmir.

Though not all fears or tensions from the past have dissipated, almost everyone here professes to want the Pandits to come back to the valley. Because they had lived here for generations, there is no sense that their return is intended to dilute the regions Muslim majority.

The overwhelming majority of Kashmiris believe the place is really incomplete without its diversity, said Omar Abdullah, the chief minister of Jammu and Kashmir. It is an important milestone in our return to normalcy if they begin to come back.

M. L. Dhar, a 75-year-old Kashmiri Pandit who lives in a suburb of New Delhi, returned recently to Kashmir for the first time. He was astounded at the warm welcome he received from the valleys Muslims.

I have never been as peaceful as I have been here in the last seven days, he said.

Mr. Dhar lived around the corner from the Vichar Nag shrine and was stunned to find it a wreck. For years troops from the Border Security Force camped out on the grounds of the shrine. They left several years ago, abandoning it to the elements. Today it is withered, all shattered windows and peeling paint garlanded with razor wire.

A group of activists, led by Mr. Tickoo and others, hoped the purification ritual would draw Kashmiri Pandits from outside the valley.

Mr. Tickoo never left the valley. As most of his neighbors packed up to leave in 1990, Mr. Tickoo, then 22, asked his mother if they should go, too.

She said, Lets wait another week,  Mr. Tickoo said. That carried from weeks to months to years.

Last year Mr. Tickoo completed a survey of the remaining Pandits in the valley, counting fewer than 3,000.

From birth to death Kashmiri Pandits have our own culture, our own rituals, Mr. Tickoo said. Outside of Kashmir you cannot be a Kashmiri Pandit.

Why the Pandits fled, and whether their departure was a hasty overreaction or a rational response to a mortal threat, is debated to this day. Dozens of Pandits were killed in 1989 and 1990, according to government records, and anti-Hindu rhetoric from separatist militants was on the rise.

Now, two decades later, both sides of the religious divide wonder whether they erred. Gulam Rasoul, a retired police officer who lives near the newly reopened temple, said both sides shared blame.

They ran away, and we drove them out, he said. Now they regret it, and we also regret the loss.
He quoted an old Kashmiri saying. Kashmir is like a Mughal garden, he said, referring to the immaculately tended gardens, full of roses, lilies and violets that dot the landscape here. If you have only one tree in the garden it will have no fragrance. When the Pandits left, the fragrance was gone.





Hindus Begin to Return to Kashmir Valley
But platitudes belie deep divisions. Many Muslims see Pandits as more loyal to India than to Kashmir, while many Pandits view Muslims as not-so-secret agents of Pakistan.

Some Pandits, especially those who fled farthest from the valley, have never been back and continue to think it is unsafe to return. And they had little financial incentive to come back. Many worked for the government and kept receiving their salaries in exile.

L. N. Dhar, a doctor who lives in New Delhi, left Kashmir with his extended family in 1990. He opened a clinic and settled into an upscale neighborhood in the citys southern suburbs.

These people had guns, they were free to shoot anyone, kill anybody, Dr. Dhar said. It was an atmosphere of terror. We had no option but to leave that place.

Leaving Kashmir, he said, has turned out to be cultural suicide, he said. Scattered Pandits find it hard to keep their traditions and rituals alive. Their children barely speak Kashmiri, if at all.

Once these links are gone out, identity is completely lost, he said.

Despite the feeling that militancy is unlikely to return anytime soon, few Pandits have permanently returned. It was always an affluent and well-educated community, so many Pandits are well established elsewhere in India and beyond.

At the Vichar Nag shrine, as the harmonium wailed and the rising chorus of old Kashmiri songs filled the air, Muslim onlookers marveled at the return of their long-lost neighbors.

I have not seen these people before, so I am curious, said Nazim Amin Butt, a 22-year-old business school student. He watched with rapt attention as the chanting priest daubed saffron, red, pink and blue powder on the earthen fire pit, and placed heaps of flower petals at the head of the lingam, the phallic icon of Lord Shiva.

It is not a problem that they come here, Mr. Butt said. They come from this place just like us. They belong here.


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## Parashuram1

This is a very good news. I think my wife would finally be pleased to see this change. Thank you for posting.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## psychedelic_renegade

The Hindu : News / National : Colonel removed, Major suspended in J&K fake encounter case

An Army Major has been suspended and a Colonel removed from his command for their alleged involvement in the killing of three youths in a fake encounter in April in Kupwara district of Jammu and Kashmir.

&#8220;The Colonel has been removed from the command. The second officer (Major) has been suspended as of now and an inquiry has been ordered,&#8221; Lt Gen B S Jaiswal, chief of Army&#8217;s Northern Command, said on Sunday.

Both Col D.K. Pathania, Commanding Officer of 4 Rajput Regiment, and Major Upinder of the same regiment, were named as main accused by the Jammu and Kashmir police in the April 30 Machil encounter case.

The Army on April 30 said they had killed three unidentified infiltrators in Machil sector along the LoC and later claimed they were Pakistani terrorists.

Mohamad Shafi, Shehzad Ahmed and Riyaz Ahmed, all residents of Nadihal in Baramulla district, were gunned down after they were allegedly lured to the border areas and shot dead in an alleged encounter.

Following complaints from relatives of the victims, a territorial army jawan and two others were arrested.

The Army had ordered an inquiry into the killing after the police filed a report accusing the Major of entering into a criminal conspiracy with some locals to eliminate the three youths by labelling them as terrorists.

&#8220;Pathania has been asked not to leave the Valley till the inquiry is completed,&#8221; Army sources said. He was all ready to leave for Meerut where his regiment has been relocated.

Gen Jaiswal said, &#8220;It (inquiry) will be totally transparent and the truth will be there.... The inquiry is on. Our genuine concern is to be transparent. This is the first step. And this should be the indicator that subsequently we will be coming out with the truth.&#8221;

This is the second time that the Army has removed a serving officer from a command. Earlier, Colonel Gloria of 33 Rashtriya Rifles was removed for allegedly killing three boys who were playing cricket in a playground in Dudipora-Handwara in February 2006, three months after he had taken over the reins of the counter-insurgency unit.

In the Machil case, police inquiry relied heavily on the statement of a trooper of 161 battalion of the Territorial Army in Gauntmullah, Baramulla who told the investigators about the alleged involvement of Major Upinder. Abbass, the Territorial Army jawan, was among three persons including a former Special Police Officer arrested by the police in this case.

Meanwhile, the police have recorded the statements of the parents of the three slain youths after taking them to Kupwara.

Earlier, Chief Judicial Magistrate Sopore had recorded the statements of close relatives of the three youths.

The action came after Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah met senior officials of the Army and police at a high-level meeting on Sunday.

Mr. Abdullah has made a strong pitch for amending the Armed Forces Special Powers Act to make it more transparent. He is expected to raise this issue during the two-day visit of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh here from Monday


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## civfanatic

IM a kashmiri from srinagar

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## SEAL

Colonel removed, Major suspended in J&K fake encounter case - India - The Times of India

SRINAGAR: An Army Major has been suspended and a Colonel removed from his command for their alleged involvement in the killing of three youths in a fake encounter in April in Kupwara district of Jammu and Kashmir. 

"The Colonel has been removed from the command. The second officer (Major) has been suspended as of now and an inquiry has been ordered," Lt Gen B S Jaiswal, chief of Army's Northern Command, said on Sunday. 

Both Col D K Pathania, Commanding Officer (CO) of 4 Rajput Regiment, and Major Upinder of the same regiment, were named as the main accused by the J&K Police in the April 30 Machil encounter case. The army had on April 30 said they had killed three unidentified infiltrators in Machil sector along the LoC and later claimed they were Pakistani terrorists. 

Mohamad Shafi, Shehzad Ahmed and Riyaz Ahmed, all residents of Nadihal in Baramulla district, were gunned down after they were allegedly lured to the border areas and shot dead in an alleged encounter. Following complaints from relatives of the victims, a territorial army jawan and two others were arrested. 

The Army had ordered an inquiry into the killing after the police filed a report accusing the Major of entering into a criminal conspiracy with some locals to eliminate the three youths by labelling them as terrorists. 

Pathania has been asked not to leave the Valley till the inquiry is completed," Army sources said. He was all ready to leave for Meerut where his regiment has been relocated. 

Gen Jaiswal said, "It (inquiry) will be totally transparent and the truth will be there.... The inquiry is on. 

"Our genuine concern is to be transparent. This is the first step. And this should be the indicator that subsequently we will be coming out with the truth," he said. 

This is the second time that the Army has removed a serving officer from a command. Earlier, Colonel Gloria of 33 Rashtriya Rifles was removed for allegedly killing three boys who were playing cricket in a playground in Dudipora-Handwara in February 2006, three months after he had taken over the reins of the counter-insurgency unit. 

In the Machil case, police inquiry relied heavily on the statement of a trooper of 161 battalion of the Territorial army in Gauntmullah, Baramulla who told the investigators about the alleged involvement of Major Upinder. 

Abbass, the Territorial army jawan, was among three persons including a former Special Police Officer arrested by the police in this case. Meanwhile, the police have recorded the statements of the parents of the three slain youths after taking them to Kupwara. 

Earlier, Chief Judicial Magistrate Sopore had recorded the statements of close relatives of the three youths. The action came after Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah met senior officials of the Army and police at a high-level meeting today. 

Omar has made a strong pitch for amending the Armed Forces Special Powers Act to make it more transparent. 

He is expected to raise this issue during the two-day visit of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh here from tomorrow.


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## SEAL

Indian army is already short of 16,000 officers and in last six month nearly 100 officers were removed from their posts including top three Lieutenant Generals.


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## TheBraveHeart

fox said:


> Indian army is already short of 16,000 officers and in last six month nearly *100 officers were removed* from their posts including top three Lieutenant Generals.



Please provide some source about the bolded part...

Also, when u mention of top officers being suspended/court marshal it actually means more refinement is being made towards army discipline which is always needed; unlike other world armies where even the worst can get away and work like an army within an army...


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## ice_man

*Complete strike in held Kashmir on Indian PM&#8217;s visit*


Updated at: 1135 PST, Monday, June 07, 2010 

SRINAGAR: In occupied Kashmir, complete shutdown is being observed, today, on the occasion of the visit of Indian Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh to the territory.

The shutdown is aimed at conveying the Prime Minister that the Kashmiris reject India&#8217;s illegal occupation of Jammu and Kashmir, despite continued Indian state terrorism.

The shutdown is also meant to draw the world attention towards the fake encounter killings staged by Indian troops.

Call for the strike has been given by veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Gilani and supported by High Court Bar Association, Dukhtaran-e-Millat, Muslim League, JKLF-R and other pro-movement leaders and organisations.

The occupation authorities have sealed various localities of Srinagar. Heavy contingents of Indian troops have been deployed in the city while high alert has been sounded in and around the Kashmir University of Agriculture Science and Technology (KUAST) and a helicopter has been seen flying in the area. Indian Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh is scheduled to attend a function in the campus.

Indian troops, wearing bulletproof jackets and carrying automatic weapons, have also been seen on motorboats and shikaras at Dal Lake. 

Complete strike in held Kashmir on Indian PM&#8217;s visit

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## Jazzbot

and they call Kashmir as Atut-Ang..


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## KS

jazzy_superior said:


> and they call Kashmir as Atut-Ang..



Nothing wrong/improper in it.


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## RobbieS

_The Kashmiri Pandits are a silent and now displaced minority. Talks of freedom and referendum tend to forget these people who were driven out of their homes and were forced to rebuild their lives away from their roots. Their identity has been destroyed and their linkages with their ancestral lands stand frozen for many decades. Why is that nobody talks about them?_

Roots in Kashmir Tug Hindus Home - NYTimes.com

***********************************


SRINAGAR, Kashmir &#8212; The ceremony is simple and common. A Hindu priest lights a fire, places some herbs, clarified butter and other offerings atop it and through its peculiar alchemy the smoke purifies everything it touches.

A Muslim insurgency forced many Pandits to flee the Kashmir Valley in the 1990s. The once-abandoned shrine has reopened, and a worker repaired its paintings of Hindu gods. 

But nothing about this Maha Yaghya ritual performed in the once-abandoned Vichar Nag shrine here on a recent Saturday night was simple. A week of downpours left the shrine&#8217;s grounds waterlogged and putrid. The wood was wet and the fire would not start.

But most peculiar was the ceremony&#8217;s location, astride one of the world&#8217;s most fractious religious fault lines, between two nuclear-armed neighbors who have fought three wars, two of them over the land on which the shrine sits.

*Twenty years ago, nearly 400,000 Hindus fled the Kashmir Valley, fearful of a separatist insurgency by the area&#8217;s Muslim majority. Now they are trickling back, a sign to many here that the Kashmir Valley, after years of violence and turmoil, is settling in to an uneasy but hopeful peace.
*
The valley&#8217;s upper-caste Hindus, Pandits as they are known, are reconnecting with their ancestral home, a few to stay and even larger numbers to visit. More than a dozen shrines have reopened in recent years, said Sanjay Tickoo, a Kashmiri Pandit who never left the valley and is now trying to entice those who left to return.

Their presence was once part of what made the Kashmir Valley a unique and idyllic patch of India, filled with apple orchards and shimmering fields of saffron framed by spiky, snow-capped peaks. A well-to-do but not overly powerful minority, the Pandits lived for centuries in relative harmony with their Muslim neighbors.

Kashmir&#8217;s mosaic of relatively peaceful coexistence first began to crack during the partition of British India, in 1947. But it was more than a decade of insurgency beginning in 1989 that turned the region into the battleground of the fierce rivalry between Hindu-majority India and Muslim-dominated Pakistan, who each control a portion of Kashmir.

Though not all fears or tensions from the past have dissipated, almost everyone here professes to want the Pandits to come back to the valley. Because they had lived here for generations, there is no sense that their return is intended to dilute the region&#8217;s Muslim majority.

&#8220;The overwhelming majority of Kashmiris believe the place is really incomplete without its diversity,&#8221; said Omar Abdullah, the chief minister of Jammu and Kashmir. &#8220;It is an important milestone in our return to normalcy if they begin to come back.&#8221;

M. L. Dhar, a 75-year-old Kashmiri Pandit who lives in a suburb of New Delhi, returned recently to Kashmir for the first time. He was astounded at the warm welcome he received from the valley&#8217;s Muslims.

&#8220;I have never been as peaceful as I have been here in the last seven days,&#8221; he said.

Mr. Dhar lived around the corner from the Vichar Nag shrine and was stunned to find it a wreck. For years troops from the Border Security Force camped out on the grounds of the shrine. They left several years ago, abandoning it to the elements. Today it is withered, all shattered windows and peeling paint garlanded with razor wire.

A group of activists, led by Mr. Tickoo and others, hoped the purification ritual would draw Kashmiri Pandits from outside the valley.

Mr. Tickoo never left the valley. As most of his neighbors packed up to leave in 1990, Mr. Tickoo, then 22, asked his mother if they should go, too.

&#8220;She said, &#8216;Lets wait another week,&#8217; &#8221; Mr. Tickoo said. &#8220;That carried from weeks to months to years.&#8221;

*Last year Mr. Tickoo completed a survey of the remaining Pandits in the valley, counting fewer than 3,000.*

*&#8220;From birth to death Kashmiri Pandits have our own culture, our own rituals,&#8221; Mr. Tickoo said. &#8220;Outside of Kashmir you cannot be a Kashmiri Pandit.&#8221;*

Why the Pandits fled, and whether their departure was a hasty overreaction or a rational response to a mortal threat, is debated to this day. Dozens of Pandits were killed in 1989 and 1990, according to government records, and anti-Hindu rhetoric from separatist militants was on the rise.

Now, two decades later, both sides of the religious divide wonder whether they erred. Gulam Rasoul, a retired police officer who lives near the newly reopened temple, said both sides shared blame.

&#8220;They ran away, and we drove them out,&#8221; he said. &#8220;Now they regret it, and we also regret the loss.&#8221; 

*He quoted an old Kashmiri saying. &#8220;Kashmir is like a Mughal garden,&#8221; he said, referring to the immaculately tended gardens, full of roses, lilies and violets that dot the landscape here. &#8220;If you have only one tree in the garden it will have no fragrance. When the Pandits left, the fragrance was gone.&#8221;*


For years, troops were camped out at the Vichar Nag shrine. 

But platitudes belie deep divisions. Many Muslims see Pandits as more loyal to India than to Kashmir, while many Pandits view Muslims as not-so-secret agents of Pakistan.

Some Pandits, especially those who fled farthest from the valley, have never been back and continue to think it is unsafe to return. And they had little financial incentive to come back. Many worked for the government and kept receiving their salaries in exile.

L. N. Dhar, a doctor who lives in New Delhi, left Kashmir with his extended family in 1990. He opened a clinic and settled into an upscale neighborhood in the city&#8217;s southern suburbs.

&#8220;These people had guns, they were free to shoot anyone, kill anybody,&#8221; Dr. Dhar said. &#8220;It was an atmosphere of terror. We had no option but to leave that place.&#8221;

*Leaving Kashmir, he said, has turned out to be cultural suicide, he said. Scattered Pandits find it hard to keep their traditions and rituals alive. Their children barely speak Kashmiri, if at all.

&#8220;Once these links are gone out, identity is completely lost,&#8221; he said.*

Despite the feeling that militancy is unlikely to return anytime soon, few Pandits have permanently returned. It was always an affluent and well-educated community, so many Pandits are well established elsewhere in India and beyond.

At the Vichar Nag shrine, as the harmonium wailed and the rising chorus of old Kashmiri songs filled the air, Muslim onlookers marveled at the return of their long-lost neighbors.

&#8220;I have not seen these people before, so I am curious,&#8221; said Nazim Amin Butt, a 22-year-old business school student. He watched with rapt attention as the chanting priest daubed saffron, red, pink and blue powder on the earthen fire pit, and placed heaps of flower petals at the head of the lingam, the phallic icon of Lord Shiva.

*&#8220;It is not a problem that they come here,&#8221; Mr. Butt said. &#8220;They come from this place just like us. They belong here.&#8221;*

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Decemberrocks

jazzy_superior said:


> and they call Kashmir as Atut-Ang..



Beshaaq aur Beshubhaa !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Dr.Evil

Self-Delete


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## ahmed_naj

old but no one posted it:

*'SOG Threatening Nadihal Villagers'*

Srinagar, June 01, KONS: The Hurriyat (M) on Tuesday said that Nadihal villagers were receiving dire threats from the Special Operations Group (SOG) of the police for speaking the truth about the Machil killings.
A Hurriyat (M) spokesman named one Fayyaz Ahmad Wani, son of Abdul Rasheed Wani, from Tujjar Sharief, Sopore, as among the several villagers who had received death threats from the SOG.
&#8220;The locals are being warned of dire consequences for the entire area if they persist with telling their side of the story,&#8221; the spokesman said. &#8220;The residents are alarmed and terror-stricken at the threats.&#8221;
According to the spokesman, a delegation from Nadihal had revealed the threats before the Hurriyat (M) chairman, Mirwaiz Umer Farooq, on Monday, saying that they were told that they would be killed for speaking the truth.
&#8220;The responsibility will be entirely of the state government&#8217;s if the forces and their agencies take any action in Nadihal,&#8221; the Hurriyat (M) said.


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## deepak75

ice_man said:


> *Complete strike in held Kashmir on Indian PMs visit*
> 
> Updated at: 1135 PST, Monday, June 07, 2010
> 
> SRINAGAR: In occupied Kashmir, complete shutdown is being observed, today, on the occasion of the visit of Indian Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh to the territory.
> 
> The shutdown is aimed at conveying the Prime Minister that the Kashmiris reject Indias illegal occupation of Jammu and Kashmir, despite continued Indian state terrorism.
> 
> The shutdown is also meant to draw the world attention towards the fake encounter killings staged by Indian troops.
> 
> Call for the strike has been given by veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Gilani and supported by High Court Bar Association, Dukhtaran-e-Millat, Muslim League, JKLF-R and other pro-movement leaders and organisations.
> 
> The occupation authorities have sealed various localities of Srinagar. Heavy contingents of Indian troops have been deployed in the city while high alert has been sounded in and around the Kashmir University of Agriculture Science and Technology (KUAST) and a helicopter has been seen flying in the area. Indian Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh is scheduled to attend a function in the campus.
> 
> Indian troops, wearing bulletproof jackets and carrying automatic weapons, have also been seen on motorboats and shikaras at Dal Lake.
> 
> Complete strike in held Kashmir on Indian PMs visit



The Prime Minister in this visit is slated to announce a 200 Crore as a protection package for the Saffron farmers alone in J&K. *To put this number in perspective, this is about 35% of the total agriculture development budget announced by Minister Mr. Hafiz Saeed of Pakistan.*

PM&#039;s visit, Geelani&#039;s strike paralyse Kashmir



> Here, Singh is likely to announce a Rs 200-crore package for the saffron industry, which is facing tough times due to adulterated saffron flooding the market. Complaining that they were not finding enough buyers, saffron growers had staged a demonstration demanding action against those harming their trade.



It is a shame that the development activities being carried out in J&K by the government are being held hostage by M/s Geelani and other henchmen enjoying the support of Pakistan without even an iota of consideration for the farmers and citizens in Kashmir who have been progressively damaging any attempts to improve the quality of life of people in the valley and in the state.

All the more reasons to ensure that the wet dreams of destabilising the region are thwarted and the primary objectives of developing the region and its populace are achieved.

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## Lankan Ranger

*PM begins Jammu & Kashmir visit amid shutdown*

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh began a two-day trip to Jammu and Kashmir on Monday even as a general shutdown called by separatists to protest the visit affected life in this summer capital. 

The prime minister addressed the 5th convocation of the Sher-e-Kashmir University of Sciences and Technology (SKUAST) at its convention complex on the banks of Dal Lake. 

He arrived in a special plane accompanied by wife Gursharan Kaur and union ministers Ghulam Nabi Azad and Prithviraj Chauhan. Security was heightened and restrictions imposed in parts of this city in view of the shutdown.

T.K.A. Nair, principal secretary to the prime minister, Shiv Shankar Menon, the national security advisor, and Harish Khare, media advisor to Manmohan Singh, are also part of the delegation. 

Governor N.N. Vohra, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, his father and union minister Farooq Abdullah received the prime minister. 

Normal life was was affected because of the shutdown called by hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Geelani. Markets were shut as public transport, schools and other businesses remained closed in the city.

Police and paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) were deployed in strength to thwart violence in five police station areas of the Old City. 

"There is no restriction on the movement of civilians. Preventive measures have been taken to ensure safety of civilian life and property," a senior police officer said.

Police and intelligence officials here ejected as "alarmist" media reports that separatist guerrillas had planned suicide attacks in Srinagar.

All roads leading to the Sher-e-Kashmir International Convention Complex, the venue of the convocation, have been sealed. No pedestrian or vehicle is allowed on these roads unless they hold special police passes.

All the Mughal gardens, including Nishat, Shalimar and Chasma Shahi, have been closed for two days as they are located close to the venue for functions to be attended by Manmohan Singh.

The prime minister is also expected to announce a Rs.200 crore package to revive the Kashmiri saffron industry, which is going through a downturn because of adulterated saffron flooding the markets. 

He is scheduled to meet delegations of mainstream political parties in the evening. Manmohan Singh is also likely to renew his call to separatists to resume political dialogue with the central government. 

PM begins Jammu & Kashmir visit amid shutdown- Hindustan Times


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## Gene

ice_man said:


> *Complete strike in held Kashmir on Indian PM&#8217;s visit*
> 
> 
> Updated at: 1135 PST, Monday, June 07, 2010
> 
> SRINAGAR: In occupied Kashmir, complete shutdown is being observed, today, on the occasion of the visit of Indian Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh to the territory.
> 
> The shutdown is aimed at conveying the Prime Minister that the Kashmiris reject India&#8217;s illegal occupation of Jammu and Kashmir, despite continued Indian state terrorism.
> 
> 
> Complete strike in held Kashmir on Indian PM&#8217;s visit



They are not protesting for india's illegal occupation on kashmir........They are protesting for the fake killing of 3 kasmiris by army.

Plz do't post a biased report published in a pakistani channel about india.We also have plenty of such biased report about pakistan's illegal occupation in their side of kashmir.

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## GUNNER

SRINAGAR, India, June 7, 2010 (AFP) - Indian troops have been "strictly instructed" to respect human rights in Kashmir, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said Monday on a visit to the disputed region.
Singh arrived in the summer Kashmiri capital of Srinagar on a two-day visit to review the security situation and inspect development projects. He is also to hold meetings with pro-India politicians.
Hardline separatists called a general strike to protest against Singh's visit, which comes amid heightened tensions since the killing of three Muslims in April by the military.
The strike closed shops, schools, offices and banks in Srinagar and other towns in the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley.
"The security forces in Jammu and Kashmir have been strictly instructed to respect human rights of the civilians," Singh told a university conference.
"We will act to remove any deficiency in the implementation of those instructions," he said to applause from a packed audience.
Rebels opposed to Indian rule in Kashmir have tried to disrupt high-profile events in the past by staging attacks, including car bombings.
Roads leading to the conference venue in Srinagar were closed, with thousands of soldiers and paramilitary troopers deployed in the area.
Singh said New Delhi was ready to hold talks with Kashmiris "who are against violence."
He was referring to moderate separatists who have held several rounds of talks with New Delhi in the past but oppose further negotiations until tough security laws are repealed, troops withdrawn from civilian areas and human rights respected.


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## BATMAN

deepak75 said:


> The Prime Minister in this visit is slated to announce a 200 Crore as a protection package for the Saffron farmers alone in J&K. *To put this number in perspective, this is about 35&#37; of the total agriculture development budget announced by Minister Mr. Hafiz Saeed of Pakistan.*



Obviously, complete strike prove exactly opposite and that is 'money cannot buy freedom!'

Manmohan should understand by now he cannot even compensate for all the state crimes agaisnt indian Muslims by any amount.

Why Pakistan?



> It is a shame that the development activities being carried out in J&K by the government are being held hostage by M/s Geelani and other henchmen enjoying the support of Pakistan without even an iota of consideration for the farmers and citizens in Kashmir who have been progressively damaging any attempts to improve the quality of life of people in the valley and in the state.



Your army failed to hijack Kashmir on gun point where as geelini did it without gun!!! would you consider it calling democracy?

And yet again Pakistan!



> All the more reasons to ensure that the wet dreams of destabilising the region are thwarted and the primary objectives of developing the region and its populace are achieved.


What the heck.... you acheived nothing.... it is very obvious GOI is a looser in Kashmir today with money and yesterday with guns.
Don't forget, all those killed by india army were kith and kins of Kashmiris.

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## Rocketsingh

BATMAN said:


> it is very obvious GOI is a looser in Kashmir today with money and yesterday with guns.
> Don't forget, all those killed by india army were kith and kins of Kashmiris.



sorry dude nothing will happen,watever u say.......billions of indians are standing with this indian state


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## Evil Flare

Nothing New .. Everytime any indian PM visit Jammu & kashmir , there is always Complete Strike ....

The State Belong to kashmiri Peoples & they should be allowed to choose their future ...

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## Jade

Aamir Zia said:


> Nothing New .. Everytime any indian PM visit Jammu & kashmir , there is always Complete Strike ....
> 
> The State Belong to kashmiri Peoples & they should be allowed to choose their future ...



Strikes are not always voluntary, especially in Kashmir, but could be forced upon the general public by vested elements that use this to further their interests


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## vishalgutsy

Aamir Zia said:


> Nothing New .. Everytime any indian PM visit Jammu & kashmir , there is always Complete Strike ....
> 
> The State Belong to kashmiri Peoples & they should be allowed to choose their future ...



yes kashmir belong to kashmiris , and kashmiris belong to india.
nad yes kashmiris are free to choose their future... they can become engineers , doctors and technocrats in the prestigious indian institutes .... lots of kashmiris today are coming to delhi ncr for call centres and bpo s.

anyways... people may keep making hue n cry . we are least bothered about it.
kashmir is indian territory , and will always be.
if anyone has the balls , then try doing mischief there.


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## tinguzzz

BATMAN said:


> Obviously, complete strike prove exactly opposite and that is '*money cannot buy freedom!*'
> 
> Manmohan should understand by now he cannot even compensate for all the state crimes agaisnt indian Muslims by any amount.
> 
> Why Pakistan?
> 
> 
> 
> Your army failed to hijack Kashmir on gun point where as geelini did it without gun!!! would you consider it calling democracy?
> 
> And yet again Pakistan!
> 
> 
> What the heck.... *you acheived nothing....* it is very obvious GOI is a looser in Kashmir today with money and yesterday with guns.
> Don't forget, all those killed by india army were kith and kins of Kashmiris.



money cannot buy freedom!

Really where is your freedom.....america give you money...and not able to take single step against america...


you acheived nothing....
so you have achieved na? kashmir to mila ga nahi...upar se pani bhi gaya


Don't forget, all those killed by india army were kith and kins of Kashmiris.

Oh... you have care for kashmiri....wht about kasmiri pundit..isnt they are not a kasmiri...why dont you oppose when lots of kashmiri pandit got killed where is your voice at that time....your eye is on the land not on the people of kashmir...If you love them so much why dont you open ur gates and allow all pak loving kashmiri to enter into your country and also when all cross the gate dont forget to close it...

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## bc040400065

jade1982 said:


> Strikes are not always voluntary, especially in Kashmir, but could be forced upon the general public by vested elements that use this to further their interests



Now this is realy funny... com'on dear what the hell your 700000 troops in kashmir are doing... They cannot even manage to take out these "few" vested elements????? 


Dear Indian Fellows please accept the reality ... Open your eyes people... *Kashmiris don;t want to be with India....*

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## vishalgutsy

> Dear Indian Fellows please accept the reality ... Open your eyes people... Kashmiris don;t want to be with India....



ok.. lets say we accepted..
then vat r u going to do about it..??


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## bc040400065

tinguzzz said:


> you acheived nothing....
> so you have achieved na? kashmir to mila ga nahi...upar se pani bhi gaya
> 
> 
> ...



Remember please forget about whether we get kashmir or not.. but If we don't get "pani" then India should know that result wouldn't be soo nice for India as well.


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## Jade

bc040400065 said:


> Now this is realy funny... com'on dear what the hell your 700000 troops in kashmir are doing... They cannot even manage to take out these "few" vested elements?????



This has been discussed, and argued at least 1000 times in PDF. Dont want to derail the thread 



bc040400065 said:


> Dear Indian Fellows please accept the reality ... Open your eyes people... *Kashmiris don;t want to be with India....*



Thats you opinion and not facts


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## ISRO

bc040400065 said:


> Remember please forget about whether we get kashmir or not.. but If we don't get "pani" then India should know that result wouldn't be soo nice for India as well.



You dnt understand in 4 wars that your country can not do any think

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## bc040400065

*Now this is an Indian source *

*PM begins Jammu & Kashmir visit amid shutdown*

Indo-Asian News Service
Srinagar, June 07, 2010
First Published: 15:29 IST(7/6/2010)
Last Updated: 18:38 IST(7/6/2010)


*Prime Minister Manmohan Singh began a two-day trip to Jammu and Kashmir on Monday even as a general shutdown called by separatists to protest the visit affected life in this summer capital. *

The prime minister addressed the 5th convocation of the Sher-e-Kashmir University of Sciences and Technology (SKUAST) at its convention complex on the banks of Dal Lake. 

He arrived in a special plane accompanied by wife Gursharan Kaur and union ministers Ghulam Nabi Azad and Prithviraj Chauhan. Security was heightened and restrictions imposed in parts of this city in view of the shutdown.

T.K.A. Nair, principal secretary to the prime minister, Shiv Shankar Menon, the national security advisor, and Harish Khare, media advisor to Manmohan Singh, are also part of the delegation. 

Governor N.N. Vohra, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, his father and union minister Farooq Abdullah received the prime minister. 

Normal life was was affected because of the shutdown called by hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Geelani. *Markets were shut as public transport, schools and other businesses remained closed in the city.*
Police and paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) were deployed in strength to thwart violence in five police station areas of the Old City. 

"There is no restriction on the movement of civilians. Preventive measures have been taken to ensure safety of civilian life and property," a senior police officer said.

Police and intelligence officials here ejected as "alarmist" media reports that separatist guerrillas had planned suicide attacks in Srinagar.

All roads leading to the Sher-e-Kashmir International Convention Complex, the venue of the convocation, have been sealed. No pedestrian or vehicle is allowed on these roads unless they hold special police passes.

All the Mughal gardens, including Nishat, Shalimar and Chasma Shahi, have been closed for two days as they are located close to the venue for functions to be attended by Manmohan Singh.

The prime minister is also expected to announce a Rs.200 crore package to revive the Kashmiri saffron industry, which is going through a downturn because of adulterated saffron flooding the markets. 

He is scheduled to meet delegations of mainstream political parties in the evening. Manmohan Singh is also likely to renew his call to separatists to resume political dialogue with the central government. 

PM begins Jammu & Kashmir visit amid shutdown- Hindustan Times


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## bc040400065

ISRO said:


> You dnt understand in 4 wars that your country can not do any think



Water is life and death issue for pakistan and remember we have nukes now and blockage of our water will mean declaration of war against us.


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## vishalgutsy

bc040400065 said:


> Water is life and death issue for pakistan and remember we have nukes now and blockage of our water will mean declaration of war against us.



hey .. i have nukes too. i have 5 nukes in my pocket..
now dont piss me with ure trolls , or ill bomb those nukes on ure bald head.


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## tinguzzz

bc040400065 said:


> Water is life and death issue for pakistan and remember we have nukes now and blockage of our water will mean declaration of war against us.



Before posting these troll...listen to ur sensible people

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## gaurish

bc040400065 said:


> Now this is realy funny... com'on dear what the hell your 700000 troops in kashmir are doing... They cannot even manage to take out these "few" vested elements?????
> 
> 
> Dear Indian Fellows please accept the reality ... Open your eyes people... *Kashmiris don;t want to be with India....*



So Whom they wana be ? with Pakistan? or would you tell me they want to be Independent?

1. Pakistan Cant manage its current territory right now, how will they manage Kashmir?

2. Who is destabilizing or trying to destabilize Kashmir?

3. An independent Kashmir for India means *** so India does not want to stand back and give up Kashmir

4. If India gives up Kashmir India will never look back at it so fears are there more terror camps, more insurgency which will be then closer to delhi.

5. Pakistan cannot be trusted by India and India cannot be trusted by Pakistan...

6. My solution is Make LOC the IB... then IOK will belong to India and will no longer be disputed territory.. *** will belong to Pakistan.. Pakistan then has the option to either include it their nation or let it be an independent country... People should be given an option... those who want to go to Pakistan can go to *** those who want India should come or stay in IOK... and that should be the final statement.......


Then we will really see what people of Kashmir really want and i dare say nobody will want to leave a Secular, democratic and economically stable state...


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## username

bc040400065 said:


> Water is life and death issue for pakistan and remember *we have nukes now* and blockage of our water will mean declaration of war against us.



Everytime nukes, nukes, nukes... DONT YOU THINK YOUR ISLAMIC BOMB IF USED WILL KILL MUSLIMS IN INDIA ALSO... ? 

what a stupidity, if you have difficulty in pissing then also you will say you got nukes ? WTF... this is a sick mindset...

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## gaurish

username said:


> Everytime nukes, nukes, nukes... DONT YOU THINK YOUR ISLAMIC BOMB IF USED WILL KILL MUSLIMS IN INDIA ALSO... ?
> 
> what a stupidity, if you have difficulty in pissing then also you will say you got nukes ? WTF... this is a sick mindset...



Nukes is the secret of their energy..................

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## username

gaurish said:


> Nukes is the secret of their energy..................



Yep... 
Insane Idiots... I have seen lot of people using this nukes ****...


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## rameez ahmed

gaurish said:


> So Whom they wana be ? with Pakistan? or would you tell me they want to be Independent?
> 
> 1. Pakistan Cant manage its current territory right now, how will they manage Kashmir?
> 
> 2. Who is destabilizing or trying to destabilize Kashmir?
> 
> 3. An independent Kashmir for India means *** so India does not want to stand back and give up Kashmir
> 
> 4. If India gives up Kashmir India will never look back at it so fears are there more terror camps, more insurgency which will be then closer to delhi.
> 
> 5. Pakistan cannot be trusted by India and India cannot be trusted by Pakistan...
> 
> 6. My solution is Make LOC the IB... then IOK will belong to India and will no longer be disputed territory.. *** will belong to Pakistan.. Pakistan then has the option to either include it their nation or let it be an independent country... People should be given an option... those who want to go to Pakistan can go to *** those who want India should come or stay in IOK... and that should be the final statement.......
> 
> 
> Then we will really see what people of Kashmir really want and i dare say nobody will want to leave a Secular, democratic and economically stable state...



India can't take control of Kashmir.. India can only spread more terrorism there.....

To your last paragraph I want to say that why India don't did let the people of Kashmir decide what they want.. First India should be prepare for it and remove its army from there (it is completely illegal) , and then you people should tell us... Pakistan has always said that People of Kashmir should decide what they want i.e Whether Pakistan or india.. Moreover the kashmiris have seen what hindus have done to muslims in various parts of India and a big portion of that is of Gujrat....

So I don't think they will be willing to join India even after such atrocities India have done in Kashmir itself.....


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## gaurish

rameez ahmed said:


> India can't take control of Kashmir.. India can only spread more terrorism there.....
> 
> To your last paragraph I want to say that why India don't did let the people of Kashmir decide what they want.. First India should be prepare for it and remove its army from there (it is completely illegal) , and then you people should tell us... Pakistan has always said that People of Kashmir should decide what they want i.e Whether Pakistan or india.. Moreover the kashmiris have seen what hindus have done to muslims in various parts of India and a big portion of that is of Gujrat....
> 
> So I don't think they will be willing to join India even after such atrocities India have done in Kashmir itself.....



What you are saying is not practical... i gave u a practical solution... let whatever ground both sides are holding be their own and then make LOC the IB... Then tell the people to migrate or stay where they want


----------



## username

rameez ahmed said:


> India can't take control of Kashmir.. India can only spread more terrorism there.....
> 
> To your last paragraph I want to say that why India don't did let the people of Kashmir decide what they want.. First India should be prepare for it and remove its army from there (it is completely illegal) , and then you people should tell us... Pakistan has always said that People of Kashmir should decide what they want i.e Whether Pakistan or india.. *Moreover the kashmiris have seen what hindus have done to muslims in various parts of India and a big portion of that is of Gujrat....*
> 
> So I don't think they will be willing to join India even after such atrocities India have done in Kashmir itself.....




I have seen so many times your country people brought up this Gujrat problem... and I am sick of Pakistanis bringing the same thing again and again and again... 

Let me tell you something... 

1. India has 1.2 billion people with all sorts of differences in race, religion, language, caste and what not... 
2. India is a world within itself... 
3. A world will always have problems and if a world does not have problems then you are certainly dreaming... 
So India has its own problems but nothing that it does not happen in other parts of the world... let us take a very small example... 

for example :- 

Your Pakistan, a state which is formed based on a ridiculous (from my Point of View atleast) idea of a religion as its base, and you have problems in that itself (think of recent Ahmedis incident)... 

So such a small country (Pakistan) with so called Muslim Umma is having problems within itself which makes its own citizens killed, it is no wonder that occasional riots happen in India with its diversity in so many aspects (religion, caste, race, language etc)... 

Wake up and understand... we are a strong nation, lot of people might have thought it will fall apart, but except for the minor skirmishes it is going strong... if the world follows India in this unity in diversity, there will be peace...

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## asq

ISRO said:


> You dnt understand in 4 wars that your country can not do any think




sorry to break your bubble of pride about u Indians winning the wars, I thought u should know the truth. Read on.

First about East pakistan.

http://groups.google.com.pk/group/p...dmits-india-conspired-to-invade-east-pakistan

Mujib planned secession in 1969: Hasina?s explosive confession about traitor - Bangladesh - Zimbio

About Kashmir.

Kashmir Watch :: In-depth coverage on Kashmir conflict

Kashmiri Refugees: Facts, Issues and the Future Ahead

About 1965 war.

1965 War: A Different Legacy : ALL THINGS PAKISTAN

There is difficiency of truth with most Indians and they keep blowing their own horn, Keep on blowing, but once in while try to learn about facts.

Dude in 4 wars dude, we stoped u in your track cold, even though U were so sure that your Gen. choudhry promised to have morning tea in Lahore gymkhana and by stealing a bus from Lahore filming it in Amritsar and sending the fake Lahore story to BBC. U embress your country and BBC.


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## ISRO

asq said:


> sorry to break your bubble of pride about u Indians winning the wars, I thought u should knkw the truth. Read on.
> 
> First about East pakistan.
> 
> Bangladesh Leader Admits India Conspired To Invade East Pakistan - PakNationalists | Google Groups
> 
> Mujib planned secession in 1969: Hasina?s explosive confession about traitor - Bangladesh - Zimbio
> 
> About Kashmir.
> 
> Kashmir Watch :: In-depth coverage on Kashmir conflict
> 
> Kashmiri Refugees: Facts, Issues and the Future Ahead
> 
> About 1965 war.
> 
> 1965 War: A Different Legacy : ALL THINGS PAKISTAN
> 
> There is difficiency of truth with most Indians and they keep blowing their own horn, Keep on bvlowing but once in while try to learn about facts.



well dude you only find out some low level blogs for that ... not even one reliable source ???


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## gaurish

asq said:


> sorry to break your bubble of pride about u Indians winning the wars, I thought u should knkw the truth. Read on.
> 
> First about East pakistan.
> 
> Bangladesh Leader Admits India Conspired To Invade East Pakistan - PakNationalists | Google Groups
> 
> Mujib planned secession in 1969: Hasina?s explosive confession about traitor - Bangladesh - Zimbio
> 
> About Kashmir.
> 
> Kashmir Watch :: In-depth coverage on Kashmir conflict
> 
> Kashmiri Refugees: Facts, Issues and the Future Ahead
> 
> About 1965 war.
> 
> 1965 War: A Different Legacy : ALL THINGS PAKISTAN
> 
> There is difficiency of truth with most Indians and they keep blowing their own horn, Keep on bvlowing but once in while try to learn about facts.



Unreliable sources..... i can only appreciate for the trouble u took...


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## tinguzzz

asq said:


> sorry to break your bubble of pride about u Indians winning the wars, I thought u should knkw the truth. Read on.
> 
> First about East pakistan.
> 
> Bangladesh Leader Admits India Conspired To Invade East Pakistan - PakNationalists | Google Groups
> 
> Mujib planned secession in 1969: Hasina?s explosive confession about traitor - Bangladesh - Zimbio
> 
> About Kashmir.
> 
> Kashmir Watch :: In-depth coverage on Kashmir conflict
> 
> Kashmiri Refugees: Facts, Issues and the Future Ahead
> 
> About 1965 war.
> 
> 1965 War: A Different Legacy : ALL THINGS PAKISTAN
> 
> There is difficiency of truth with most Indians and they keep blowing their own horn, Keep on bvlowing but once in while try to learn about facts.



ONLY MY 1 LINK IS SUFFICIENT TO ANSWER YOUR HYPOTHESIS...

Kashmir Watch :: In-depth coverage on Kashmir conflict


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## gaurish

tinguzzz said:


> ONLY MY 1 LINK IS SUFFICIENT TO ANSWER YOUR HYPOTHESIS...
> 
> Kashmir Watch :: In-depth coverage on Kashmir conflict



U call that suffiecent link????

Kashmir Watch is the news portal of Kashmir International Research Centre (KIRC), an independent non-profit research organisation. The KIRC has been researching, collecting stories and media clippings about the situation in the Jammu and Kashmir for the last five years.

The objective of the portal-www.kashmirwatch.com-is to provide news, views and opinions with background information on Kashmir, which has been hogging the headlines since an armed conflict for the self-determination right began there in 1988.

Kashmir Watch monitors leading Indian and Pakistani newspapers, including those being printed in both sides of Kashmir.

It also covers stories, editorials and columns on Kashmir carried by news agencies and newspapers elsewhere. Overall, it enables the reader to feel the pulse and gauge the thoughts of opinion makers, intellectuals, human rights activists and politicians in the region.

Kashmir Watch also monitors world-wide issues that impact on global peace. It is sincerely committed to enlighten the world regarding the real nature and picture of the Kashmir conflict through its unbiased and impartial reporting. 


So who is funding this website??????


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## ISRO

@ asq can u answer about this 

*Response to the 1970 cyclone*

The 1970 Bhola cyclone made landfall on the East Pakistan coastline during the evening of 12 November, around the same time as a local high tide,[25] killing an estimated 300,000 to 500,000 people. Though the exact death toll is not known, it is considered the deadliest tropical cyclone on record.[26] A week after the landfall, President Khan conceded that his government had made "slips" and "mistakes" in its handling of the relief efforts for a lack of understanding of the magnitude of the disaster.[27]

A statement released by eleven political leaders in East Pakistan ten days after the cyclone hit charged the government with "gross neglect, callous indifference and utter indifference". They also accused the president of playing down the magnitude of the problem in news coverage.[28] On 19 November, students held a march in Dhaka protesting the slowness of the government response.[29] Maulana Abdul Hamid Khan Bhashani addressed a rally of 50,000 people on 24 November, where he accused the president of inefficiency and demanded his resignation.

As the conflict between East and West Pakistan developed in March, the Dhaka offices of the two government organisations directly involved in relief efforts were closed for at least two weeks, first by a general strike and then by a ban on government work in East Pakistan by the Awami League. With this increase in tension, foreign personnel were evacuated due to fears of violence. Relief work continued in the field, but long-term planning was curtailed.[30] This conflict widened into the Bangladesh Liberation War in December and concluded with the creation of Bangladesh. This is one of the first times in modern history that a natural event helped to trigger a civil war


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## BATMAN

tinguzzz said:


> Before posting these troll...listen to ur sensible people


Najam Sethi is an under cover Indian agent, he is anti Pakistan propaganda machine.

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## BATMAN

tinguzzz said:


> money cannot buy freedom!
> 
> Really where is your freedom.....america give you money...and not able to take single step against america...


Americans do not pay us we pay to America and india in terms of transit trade facility, valued .......some where between 50-100 billion US$ per annum.

American money is only for the corrupt people... it is only buying traitors therefore cannever help to win hearts of public.




> you acheived nothing....
> so you have achieved na? kashmir to mila ga nahi...upar se pani bhi gaya


Subject matter is the very un-welcomed visit of your PM to Kashmir which re-assure it does not accept GOI as their official representative.



> Oh... you have care for kashmiri....wht about kasmiri pundit..isnt they are not a kasmiri...why dont you oppose when lots of kashmiri pandit got killed where is your voice at that time....your eye is on the land not on the people of kashmir...If you love them so much why dont you open ur gates and allow all pak loving kashmiri to enter into your country and also when all cross the gate dont forget to close it...


So should i not care about them? I never heard of any complains from pudits of india for being killed by army!
Our arms are ever open for Kashmiri brothers.... i think you have never heard of reffugee camps in Azad Kashmir!

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## KS

bc040400065 said:


> Now this is realy funny... com'on dear what the hell your 700000 troops in kashmir are doing... They cannot even manage to take out these "few" vested elements?????
> 
> 
> Dear Indian Fellows please accept the reality ... Open your eyes people... *Kashmiris don;t want to be with India....*



Nor to be with Pakistan.



> It revealed that on average 44% of people in Pakistani-administered Kashmir favoured independence, compared with 43% in Indian-administered Kashmir.



First Kashmir Poll



> Less than half of residents of Kashmir favour independence as a solution to end unrest in the region and *only two per cent of them want to join Pakistan if given an option,* a survey said on Friday.



Source - Click here


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## bc040400065

username said:


> Everytime nukes, nukes, nukes... DONT YOU THINK YOUR ISLAMIC BOMB IF USED WILL KILL MUSLIMS IN INDIA ALSO... ?
> 
> what a stupidity, if you have difficulty in pissing then also you will say you got nukes ? WTF... this is a sick mindset...



Accept the reality .... Kashmiris don't want to be with India so you better change your sick mindset.... I replied what the post deserved ok. so don't tell me what my Islamic bomb is for... and you should first remember what muslims are in india and what is their living standard.


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## bc040400065

Karthic Sri said:


> Nor to be with Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> First Kashmir Poll
> 
> 
> 
> Source - Click here



So what if they don't want to be with pakistan. we are not forcing them like India. and 2nd thing what ever they want but one thing is for sure they don't want India.

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## deckingraj

bc040400065 said:


> So what if they don't want to be with pakistan. we are not forcing them like India. and 2nd thing what ever they want but one thing is for sure they don't want India.


Then you fail to comprehend the article...survey clearly says that nothing is conclusive...it even went on the saying that plebiscite in todays Kashmir will not help either becuase people depending on their ethnicity and location have completely different POV for the same issue....


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

BATMAN said:


> Najam Sethi is an under cover Indian agent, he is anti Pakistan propaganda machine.



My dad knows him form way back & this is what he said exactly about him about 20 years ago................ The dude was at my sister's wedding . I was chatting with Jugnu ( his wide) at her Friday Times office for a bit last time I was in LHE. She does seem normal though.
My sis actually worked work TFT & Dailytimes for over 10 yrs.

Aamir Ahmed Khan ( kaka)who later became Editor of Herald later also worked there and is a good acquaintance ( my older cousin's best friend).


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## BATMAN

^^Whole Pakistan knows it but he enjoy the patronage of both PML-N and PPP as it serves their purpose. when he and alike malign Pak army because otherwise popularity of army is big risk for both Zardari and Sharif clan, now you can add Iftikikhar ch. clan in it too.


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## asq

deckingraj said:


> Then you fail to comprehend the article...survey clearly says that nothing is conclusive...it even went on the saying that plebiscite in todays Kashmir will not help either becuase people depending on their ethnicity and location have completely different POV for the same issue....



So than let the plebicite take place and if u r so confidant, let the chips fall where they may.


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## asq

ISRO said:


> well dude you only find out some low level blogs for that ... not even one reliable source ???



who says they are low level blogs, u.


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## asq

gaurish said:


> Unreliable sources..... i can only appreciate for the trouble u took...



Typical Indian answer, What I see is that this is based on the sequence of event that are based on reality, but Indians on the other hand are keeping 500,000 soldiers in Kashmir, Ignore the facts, claim to be the bigest Democracy of the world, very sad.


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## humblehobbes

*Kashmir: pessimism may be good news *
*Praveen Swami *


Last month, Noorjehan Baba left her home in Srinagar's Dal Gate area to start a new life across the Line of Control with the man who unleashed a war which claimed her first husband's life. Her husband, Hizb-ul-Mujahideen field commander Khurshid Baba, died in 1995, fighting the Indian forces in central Kashmir. For the next five years, Ms Baba retreated into a dark shroud which widows across South Asia are expected to do. Early this year, though, a family friend approached her with an offer of marriage. Her suitor was much older  but had wealth and status.

United Jihad Council chairman and Hizb supreme commander Mohammad Yusuf Shah's marriage to Ms Baba at his Rawalpindi home drew neither television crews nor newspaper reporters. It ought to have: that the 61-year-old jihad commander had love on his mind this summer, rather than war, tells us not a little about where Jammu and Kashmir is headed. Eight weeks after the November 2008 carnage in Mumbai, Shah told a rally in Muzaffarabad, Jihad will continue until the independence of Kashmir. Instead, violence in the State has diminished to an all-time low and the Hizb has all but disintegrated.

This is good news for India  but a serious problem for New Delhi's efforts at peacemaking in Jammu and Kashmir.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's low-key visit to Srinagar this week illustrates the rise of a new caution in New Delhi's policy on Jammu and Kashmir. In an address to students graduating from the Sher-i-Kashmir Agricultural University, Dr. Singh focussed on issues linked to development. For those hoping for a call to Kashmiri secessionists to renew their engagement with the government, there was only the repetition of a long-standing offer to to hold talks with the representative of any group which shuns violence and terror. Meaningful dialogue with Pakistan on the State, he suggested, would be possible only when Pakistan doesn't let its territory be used for acts of terror against India.

The Prime Minister's language illustrates the rise of a new pessimism in New Delhi on the prospects of a breakthrough in the peace process. In November 2004, during his first visit to Srinagar as Prime Minister, Dr. Singh called on young people to join him in the adventure of building a new India and a new Kashmir. The next year, he met twice with leaders of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference. He also initiated a consultation process with major political groups, and held separate discussions with secessionists like the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front's Yasin Malik. From 2006, New Delhi's envoy Satinder Lambah and his Pakistani counterpart Tariq Aziz started working to close a deal on Jammu and Kashmir's future.

That deal, though, was blown away by the storm winds that swept Pakistani President General Pervez Musharraf from power in 2008. Pakistan's all-powerful military establishment has since made clear that it has no desire to make concessions on Jammu and Kashmir. Last year, Union Home Minister P. Chidambaram initiated a process he called quiet diplomacy a series of covert contacts with the Mirwaiz Umar Farooq-led APHC, which were first made public by this newspaper. That process has come to a grinding halt. Mirwaiz Farooq has closed the door on talks until a new consensus evolves in Pakistan; jihadists made their position known by shooting a key pro-dialogue leader, Fazl Haq Qureshi, in December.

Jammu and Kashmir's political landscape has been transfigured by the death of the war which began in 1988. Last year, the State saw 3.95 terrorism-related killings per 1,00,000 population including combatants, who made up over three-quarters of the dead. Its residents are now less at risk of terrorism-related death than citizens of many countries in firearms-related crime. In South Africa, there were 71.97 murders with firearms for every 100,000 of the population; for Colombia, the figure was 50.98; Thailand recorded 31.20.

India has a low-rate of firearms-related deaths; there were 4,101 killings of this kind in 2008, National Crime Records Bureau data show. But it is interesting to note that 19.8 of every 100,000 Indians were victims of a violent crime  a probability far higher than that of being killed in terrorism-related violence in Jammu and Kashmir.

Despite concerns at the continued operations of jihadist groups, violence in the State remains in decline. In 2007, there were 170 civilian deaths; last year, 83 were killed. The security forces and the Jammu and Kashmir police lost 79 personnel last year, down from 122 in 2007. Two years ago, 472 terrorists were killed; just 239 were shot dead in 2009. Improvised explosive device use fell from 56 in 2007 to 23 last year; grenade attacks from 107 to 56. Levels of violence were marginally higher in the first five months of 2010 than during the same period in 2009  but infiltration has been lower, suggesting that no major escalation is imminent.

The decline in violence has, oddly, made it difficult for the two key actors in the peace process  the jihadists and Kashmiri secessionist politicians  to reach for New Delhi's olive branch.

Pakistan-based jihadists have found their political leverage within Jammu and Kashmir severely degraded. India's intelligence services estimate that there are between 500 and 600 jihadists operating in the State today  less than a tenth of the numbers in 2001. Ethnic Kashmiri jihadist groups like the Hizb no longer have the network and infrastructure to benefit from post-peace politics. Islamist elements in urban Kashmir are increasingly supportive of the global jihadist project of organisations such as the Lashkar-e-Taiba, not the Jamaat-e-Islami linked, State-focussed politics of the Hizb. None of the five sons Shah left in Kashmir to be brought up by his wife Taj Begum when he left for Pakistan in 1994 has, notably, been drawn to their father's cause; three of them hold government jobs.

Last year, Shah expressly asked the Hurriyat leadership not to take a hasty decision with regard to dialogue with Delhi, as bilateral talks had proved futile in the past. In February, he asserted that there was no option other than the armed struggle.

Lashkar chief Hafiz Mohammad Saeed, for his part, called in a recent speech for closer jihadist-secessionist politics. The first priority is to end this [India's] tyrannical occupation, and to end it, it is critical that both armed struggle and political parties must be united. The most important thing, Saeed went on, is that the people of Kashmir, through their untold sacrifices in the struggle for freedom, have shown that they can give their all in the struggle against Hindu imperialism.

In practice, this means the jihadists have thrown their weight behind Islamist patriarch Syed Ali Shah Geelani, whose Tehreek-i-Hurriyat has long rejected dialogue with New Delhi. Pressure from Mr. Geelani and the jihadists has made it difficult for the Hurriyat  the second key actor in the peace process  to move forward. It has deeper problems.

Ever since the Assembly elections were held in 2008, it has been evident to the Hurriyat that its constituency in Jammu and Kashmir is contracting. Elections are ultimately projected as a sort of referendum by India, and that is why we have called for a complete boycott of such a process, Mirwaiz Farooq said that November. He issued a last call to the so-called mainstream politicians to join the separatist movement. Humiliation followed hubris: starting from a week after the Mirwaiz held out his threat, well over half of registered voters in the State participated in the elections. Interestingly, more than 63 per cent of voters in Shah's home village, Soibug, defied the boycott call.

Last year's protests in Shopian against the alleged rape-murder of two south Kashmir women  later established as accidental deaths by the Central Bureau of Investigation  also demonstrated the Hurriyat's limited reach. Just 17 of 111 documented Shopian-related protests between May 30, 2009 and June 30, 2009 took place in rural and semi-rural areas. More than half of the rural protests, moreover, occurred in villages just outside Shopian town. Fewer than a dozen rallies drew more than 1,000 supporters.

Kashmiri secessionist politicians have come to realise that their political position rests on weak foundations. But they seem to have little idea of what to do about it. Torn between pro-dialogue realists like Butt and anti-negotiation hawks like Shabbir Shah, Mirwaiz Farooq has chosen to retreat into a shell. In a recent interview, he called on Pakistan to evolve consensus on its future position on Kashmir, a process that could, quite obviously, take years. He has also ruled out immediate engagement with New Delhi but offered no alternative.

Prime Minister Singh's speech suggests that New Delhi's patience has worn thin  and that might be just good news. Barring small pockets of Islamist-led protests in Kashmir's inner city neighbourhoods, the State government faces no major political challenge. It has, however, been unable to move forward. For more than a decade, democratic politics in Jammu and Kashmir has had to confront the prospect of a new dispensation emerging as a consequence of the peace process. Elected leaders have thus had little incentive to focus on the kind of long-term issues needed to institutionalise democratic governance. Instead of chasing the chimera of a historic peace deal with Pakistan and the secessionists, New Delhi seems to be realising that doing nothing might, paradoxical as it might seem, yield the best outcomes.

© Copyright 2000 - 2009 The Hindu

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/...2010060856331000.htm&date=2010/06/08/&prd=th&


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## KS

bc040400065 said:


> So what if they don't want to be with pakistan. we are not forcing them like India.



Ur not forcing them..?!?!...so 44% wants independence in ur P-O-K...Why dont u give freedom to them and set an example to evil India..?



bc040400065 said:


> and 2nd thing what ever they want but one thing is for sure *they don't want India.*



U dint read my post...did u..?
The poll categorically says only 2% want to be with Pakistan.


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## Srinivas

bc040400065 said:


> Now this is realy funny... com'on dear what the hell your 700000 troops in kashmir are doing... They cannot even manage to take out these "few" vested elements?????
> 
> 
> Dear Indian Fellows please accept the reality ... Open your eyes people... *Kashmiris don;t want to be with India....*



Just go thru the findings of the poll conducted by BBC you will know the facts.
Pakistan is playing with the lives of Kashmiris in two ways. 
One is exporting terrorists and the other is creating tensions by sponsoring strikes and by organizing people to throw stones at security personnel in peaceful protests.

No ordinary common man want a complete shut down . The protests and killings are supported by pakistan make the struggle alive nothing more.
If India goes ahead with the development plan with in a span of time the opinion in the valley will change. All the separatists who are getting support from pakistan will fade away .

Finally don't worry about Kasmir it will be fine in short span of time plz take care of the balochis, Ahmadis and terrorist infested areas in pakistan first.


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## Srinivas

bc040400065 said:


> Remember please forget about whether we get kashmir or not.. but If we don't get "pani" then India should know that result wouldn't be soo nice for India as well.



Buddy India will not block the water it is strictly implementing water policies .


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## ice_man

now my indian friends!! these are just some of the videos of protests in india!! please tell me where does it prove that kashmiris want to be with india???

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## Srinivas

They are protesting for human rights not separation. If the show footage is true then why kashmiri people participate in elections and why the youth are seeking jobs in IA.
There are lot of videos and websites demanding freedom for Balochistan are they really true???


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## Ganga

ice_man said:


> now my indian friends!! these are just some of the videos of protests in india!! please tell me where does it prove that kashmiris want to be with india???


Do you know many of the protesters in the videos are unemployed youths who get paid for pelting stones at the police.A few months ago a man was found dead in a village in Kashmir.All these guys came down to the streets and there was a lock down.They accused the army of killing him.It was later found out that the victims wife had plotted with her boy friend and they killed him.Lately there were reports that the doctor investigating the sopian "rape case" had actually changed the findngs if the autopsy to humiliate the army.


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## ice_man

Karthic Sri said:


> Nor to be with Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> First Kashmir Poll
> 
> 
> 
> Source - Click here





FROM YOUR LINK:

*Concern over human rights abuses stands at 43% on the Indian side and 19% on the Pakistani side 


It revealed that on average 44% of people in Pakistani-administered Kashmir favoured independence, compared with 43% in Indian-administered Kashmir*

and your point is?????

human right violations on indian side is high! KASHMIRIS WANT INDEPENDENCE(which everyone already knows)!!!


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## ice_man

Ganga said:


> Do you know many of the protesters in the videos are unemployed youths who get paid for pelting stones at the police.A few months ago a man was found dead in a village in Kashmir.All these guys came down to the streets and there was a lock down.They accused the army of killing him.It was later found out that the victims wife had plotted with her boy friend and they killed him.Lately there were reports that the doctor investigating the sopian "rape case" had actually changed the findngs if the autopsy to humiliate the army.





 who told you this BHARKA DUTT?????

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## Vasily Zaytsev

Point Taken 

India has "illegally occupied" Kashmir.

Kashmiris " do not want to live with India"

"India is committing terrorist activities in kashmir"

We accept all this then what?

Does that change anything on ground? 

No....nothing....zilch.

India occupied kashmir illegally.So Is India going to give up kashmir?
Nope.

Strikes or no strikes what difference does it make to India? 
Nothing.


The fate of Kashmir has been sealed. Whether it is fair or unfair, legal or illegal, right or wrong doesn't make a difference to the Thick Skinned Indian Government.


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## MKI 30

PM Singh rocks.
Ignore the haters and trolls. They don't know what is happening in their own country lol.


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## Ganga

ice_man said:


> who told you this BHARKA DUTT?????



No .My classmate ,a kashmiri muslim with the sir name geelani(I am saying this otherwise you will say that he is a pandit).His family had left kashmir in the early 90s and settled down in Bombay.
By the way i guess Barkha is way ahead of your Zaid Hamid.


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## KS

ice_man said:


> FROM YOUR LINK:
> 
> *Concern over human rights abuses stands at 43% on the Indian side and 19% on the Pakistani side
> 
> 
> It revealed that on average 44% of people in Pakistani-administered Kashmir favoured independence, compared with 43% in Indian-administered Kashmir*
> 
> and your point is?????
> 
> human right violations on indian side is high! KASHMIRIS WANT INDEPENDENCE(which everyone already knows)!!!



The moot point is only 2% want to join Pakistan ...so its none of ur concern for the human rights of the Kashmiris.
That is between India and Kashmiris.Dont poke ur nose were it is not needed.


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## dabong1

IBRIS said:


> *Someone is trying too hard* But Dabong try a little bit harder.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/59617-first-kashmir-survey-produces-startling-results.html
> 
> *
> ALSO THIS ONE*
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/59373-first-kashmir-survey-produces-startling-results.html
> 
> Are you suffering from bypolar disease or you behave like this in real life.



Whats your point?


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## dabong1

EjazR said:


> The diplomatic challenge for India and Pakistan is to ensure that any liberalisation of the border is not accompanied by a resurgence of terrorist/militant movement. And this highlights in essence that the solution to this problem doesnt lie just in Kashmir, it lies in relations between India and Pakistan and a building of trust.



The report fails to mention that pakistan did stop the movement of freedom fighters but you did nothing in return.......its you that needs to gain our trust.


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## dabong1

blueRhino said:


> yea, even the people of AJK dont mind of islamic terrorist being there. *FREEDOM FIGHTERS* !, Are you talking about the freedom fighters like LET, JeM, Talliban,Pakistan-Taliban, Al Qaeda, Sipah-e-Sohaba Pakistan and Lashkar-e-Jhangvi , who are paying back their master PA in a nice manner



If you knew the difference between sectarian terror groups and the frredom fighters of kashmir.


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## blueoval79

*LeT commander feels the heat, seeks Pakistan return*


Wireless intercepts between militants in Kashmir and their Pakistani handlers reveal that Lashkar-e-Taiba commander Abdullah Ooni is making desperate attempts to run away from the valley as Indian security forces turn the heat on cross-border militants.

Widely considered to be behind the resurgence of insurgency in Kashmir, Ooni is believed to have given the security forces the slip at least half a dozen times in the last six months when police and army almost zeroed in on him during various anti-militant operations.

Ooni, who masterminds the joint operations of the terror syndicate of the LeT, Hizbul Mujahideen and Harkat-ul-Mujahideen, has been pleading with his handlers across the border to allow him to return to Pakistan-administered Kashmir as he finds the going too hot for him, the officials say, citing wireless intercepts.

'We have intercepted their messages where they are desperately pleading to their handlers that they want to return safely. Ooni is desperately trying to run away,' an intelligence official, privy to the communication intercepts, told IANS. The official could not be identified as he is not supposed to speak to the media.

Ooni's desperation is attributed to the fact that Indian forces have killed many militant commanders in Jammu and Kashmir in the last few months, among them two of Ooni's close aides in the terror network - Hizbul Mujahideen's divisional commander Lateef Dedeer and battalion commander Rafiq Ahmad Gujri.

His 'desperation to flee for safety' stems from the pressure security forces have maintained on militants in the north of the valley, the official said.

'Almost all the top commanders of the LeT except for two - Furqaan and Abdullah Ooni - have been killed. Now they want to run away. The place has become too hot for them,' the official said.

A Pakistani national, he is one of the notorious LeT commanders in Kashmir and took over as the Lashkar's valley chief in 2008 after Hafiz Nasir was killed in a north Kashmir gunbattle.

Security agencies believe he has been the brain behind the resurgent terror in Kashmir, particularly in the north of the valley where he has regrouped his cadres. Besides luring young men to jehad, he has also been successful in building a close network with other militant groups for joint operations against security officials.

North Kashmir has virtually emerged as the capital of the new insurgent movement in Kashmir as fighters have been surprising security forces with frequent attacks. There have been some 20 gunfights and other militancy-related incidents in the area since the beginning of this year.

LeT commander feels the heat, seeks Pakistan return

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## username

bc040400065 said:


> Accept the reality .... Kashmiris don't want to be with India so you better change your sick mindset....



See, I did not reply anything about Kashmir, nor I can, as I have no idea of what is happening there... and will not accept your views also, however you can have your own views... 



bc040400065 said:


> I replied what the post deserved ok. so don't tell me what my Islamic bomb is for...



No in no case it justifies that some of you guys can always talk about nukes... this is completely insane... 

You can always reply with facts, if you think your facts are not accepted, mock, be sarcastic or leave it as it is... there is absolutely no point in referring to nukes... 



bc040400065 said:


> and you should first remember what muslims are in india and what is their living standard



I know what is the state of muslims in India, I have friends who are muslims, they are well, however after Gujarat incident I cannot defend it toself proclaimed champions of that religion till the perpetrators of that massacre are brought to justice... 

but for a moment you stand in shoes of a world leader, you would realize the beauty of India, it is a world within itself, if not for India, a country with so much of diversity would already have broken apart, anyways let us not complicate our discussion by this point... 

The point which I want to make is just because you think muslims in India are not in a good state, you cannot nuke them all can you ? 

If that is the case nuke your own country first, as there are lot of sectarian violances keep happening there...


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## ice_man

Karthic Sri said:


> The moot point is only 2% want to join Pakistan ...so its none of ur concern for the human rights of the Kashmiris.
> That is between India and Kashmiris.Dont poke ur nose were it is not needed.



great logic but where was it in 71??? or in the case of JUNGADH??? and as for kashimiris! hey our side of KASHMIR is CALLED AZAAD KASHMIR has its own government and supreme court!!! if they wish they can pass a bill in their parliament! its there choice!


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## ice_man

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> They are protesting for human rights not separation. If the show footage is true then why kashmiri people participate in elections and why the youth are seeking jobs in IA.
> There are lot of videos and websites demanding freedom for Balochistan are they really true???





















should answer your question about "ELECTIONS" in kashmir!!!

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## KS

ice_man said:


> great logic *but where was it in 71*??? or in the case of JUNGADH??? and as for kashimiris! hey our side of *KASHMIR is CALLED AZAAD KASHMIR* has its own government and supreme court!!! if they wish they can pass a bill in their parliament! its there choice!



1971 - done to death...pls research before asking others...Google

Junagadh - first come first serve basis.

OK let me tell Manmohan Singh to rename our Kashmir as Azaad J&K...to satisfy u...


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## KS

dabong1 said:


> Even though i dont agree that the mumbai attacks are linked to the kashmiri fighters but if we take your accusation to be true ,the gap between the time pakistan stopped the freedom fighters from crossing the LOC and the mumbai attacks is years......more then enough time for you to make a peace overture in kashmir.



Dont take it literally my friend....its a metaphor....




dabong1 said:


> Nothing wrong with us demanding the same and asking for the indian occupation forces to leave kashmir before we we make any move on fighters crossing the LOC or closing down military training facilities.



As some member said we dont oppose PA being in P-O-K>we r wanting u guys to end the cross border terrorism.
And as for ur reply to that guy...we r not sending in "freedom fighter" to ur Part of Kashmir to reclaim it by force.So there is no locus standi for PA to be present in cities.
But the same is not true in the reverse sense.





dabong1 said:


> *Until last week, India's federal government had never allowed any international human-rights group*, let alone AI, to visit Kashmir and assess the human-rights situation in the strife-torn region, where armed rebellion against India has been going on since 1989.
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/59617-first-kashmir-survey-produces-startling-results.html



They have allowed this week rite...so wats the problem now..?




dabong1 said:


> Doesnt work like that......we stopped the fighters and its your turn to make a major move.If you do and we are satisfied that you have shown clear good will like we did ,then we will close the facilties down and take itstep by step from there.



Dude first u didn stop the fighters...Infiltration is on the rise nowadays.
Secondly we r not here to satisfy anyone so that they may reward us for our good actions.
We r here to defend our country,it's territorial integrity.

Also *wats the guarentee that another kargil might not take place *once we respond to ur initial goodwill by taking back the army from the valley..?


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## gaurish

asq said:


> Typical Indian answer, What I see is that this is based on the sequence of event that are based on reality, but Indians on the other hand are keeping 500,000 soldiers in Kashmir, Ignore the facts, claim to be the bigest Democracy of the world, very sad.



And what Pakistan is keeping in ***? Soldiers in name of Jihadi or Jihadis in name of soldiers?... Terror camps are in *** not in IOK...

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## JonAsad

Gene said:


> They are not protesting for india's illegal occupation on kashmir........They are protesting for the fake killing of 3 kasmiris by army.
> 
> Plz do't post a biased report published in a pakistani channel about india.We also have plenty of such biased report about pakistan's illegal occupation in their side of kashmir.



Every year after 1947 there always seems to be some other reason for a complete strike rather than the Illegal occupation of Kashmir.

Wah Cha gaye notankies 

btw 15 august is celebrated there as a black day and complete strike aswell, whats the unbaised reports published in india say about that?

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## bc040400065

Karthic Sri said:


> The moot point is only 2% want to join Pakistan ...so its none of ur concern for the human rights of the Kashmiris.
> That is between India and Kashmiris.Dont poke ur nose were it is not needed.



Then why India poke nose in bengal in 1971. it was non of your concern ...it was between us and bengalis. why India came in there???


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## KS

bc040400065 said:


> Then why India poke nose in bengal in 1971. it was non of your concern ...it was between us and bengalis. why India came in there???



The moment millions of refugees started to flood into India's NE and Bengal it ceased to be an internal affair of Pakistan.
There was nothing illegal in India intervening at thast time as the migrants were weakening our economy and changing the NE demography.

None of this is true in case of Kashmir


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## prototype

ice_man said:


> great logic but where was it in 71??? or in the case of JUNGADH??? and as for kashimiris! hey our side of KASHMIR is CALLED AZAAD KASHMIR has its own government and supreme court!!! if they wish they can pass a bill in their parliament! its there choice!



ok then we will put kashmir on the list of specially administerd region,have a proxy president,set up a proxy supreme court,and will rename it independent jammu and kashmir,ur issues will b solved?


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## blueRhino

dabong1 said:


> If you knew the difference between sectarian terror groups and the frredom fighters of kashmir.



I got it, you are talking about the freedom fighters, who are paying back to PA in big blood.

For the world all are same.


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## asq

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> Point Taken
> 
> India has "illegally occupied" Kashmir.
> 
> Kashmiris " do not want to live with India"
> 
> "India is committing terrorist activities in kashmir"
> 
> We accept all this then what?
> 
> Does that change anything on ground?
> 
> No....nothing....zilch.
> 
> India occupied kashmir illegally.So Is India going to give up kashmir?
> Nope.
> 
> Strikes or no strikes what difference does it make to India?
> Nothing.
> 
> 
> The fate of Kashmir has been sealed. Whether it is fair or unfair, legal or illegal, right or wrong doesn't make a difference to the Thick Skinned Indian Government.



So all the claims of the biggest Democracy of the world are bogus.


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## asq

gaurish said:


> And what Pakistan is keeping in ***? Soldiers in name of Jihadi or Jihadis in name of soldiers?... Terror camps are in *** not in IOK...



Those soldiers that u r talikng about are Kashmiris who are ready tio fight for the freedom of their land from occupation.


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## asq

Karthic Sri said:


> The moment millions of refugees started to flood into India's NE and Bengal it ceased to be an internal affair of Pakistan.
> There was nothing illegal in India intervening at thast time as the migrants were weakening our economy and changing the NE demography.
> 
> None of this is true in case of Kashmir
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Million of Kashmiris have migrated to Pakistan, there is very substantial number of kashmiries in sialkot, in Lahore and in other parts of Pakistan.
Click to expand...


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## asq

Karthic Sri said:


> The moment millions of refugees started to flood into India's NE and Bengal it ceased to be an internal affair of Pakistan.
> There was nothing illegal in India intervening at thast time as the migrants were weakening our economy and changing the NE demography.
> 
> None of this is true in case of Kashmir



As per plans by Traiter Mujib they went to India. a planned exedus to attack and it was not possible without an excuse, this was an excuse to attack as an internal traiters Mukti Buhinis and exteranl invadors cooperating to set up a stage.

Pakistan Army had no gains from those who left East Pakistan. Gains were only to be had by India enabling it to use this staged plan.


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## asq

prototype said:


> ok then we will put kashmir on the list of specially administerd region,have a proxy president,set up a proxy supreme court,and will rename it independent jammu and kashmir,ur issues will b solved?



No u canot do anything unilatertaly in Kashmir, it has to be done under U.N supervision and agreed to by Pakistan. 

Kashmir is a disputed territory


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## Hulk

Well I want to understand the strike, it does not seems just a simple one. There are definitely a lot of anti India people there, not sure how many are pro Pakistan. Also some of this anti India feeling is manufactured. If they were against India since 1947 then why did they supported India in 1965, also why no demonstration happened at the time of Kargil? Doing a similar strike at that time would have meant a lot. Why only after 1980 they started doing this? The generation of 1947 which wanted to decided was almost dead and new generation took over.


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## asq

indianrabbit said:


> Well I want to understand the strike, it does not seems just a simple one. There are definitely a lot of anti India people there, not sure how many are pro Pakistan. Also some of this anti India feeling is manufactured. If they were against India since 1947 then why did they supported India in 1965, also why no demonstration happened at the time of Kargil? Doing a similar strike at that time would have meant a lot. Why only after 1980 they started doing this? The generation of 1947 which wanted to decided was almost dead and new generation took over.



Strange questions, Clearly they are shouting anti Indian slogans, so they are anti Indians gatherings.

If it was manufrctured than why would they shout such slogans and in such great numbers.

About Kagil, most of the info about kargil at the time was under controls by India. A black out of sort.

They were roiting before 1980 but it was not as fierce as it is now, the reason was that India did amulgamate Kashmir unilatarly into Indian union and that was the catalyst for Kashmiris to revolt, before 1980 it was undestood that it will be dicided by the chioce of People of kashmir.


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## ejaz007

*India urged to prosecute soldiers for IHK killings*

** HRW says army should hand over soldiers to police for trial in civilian court*

SRINAGAR: The Human Rights Watch on Tuesday urged India to prosecute soldiers accused of killing three men during an alleged fake gunbattle in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK).

The Indian military said the victims were rebels who were killed when it foiled an infiltration by militants along the Line of Control, the de facto border that divides Kashmir between India and Pakistan.

But the victims families said they were innocent civilians who had been abducted by the army three days before the supposed battle on April 30.

The army has suspended an officer and removed another from his command pending enquiries into the killings.

If the army is serious about punishing those responsible for this latest incident, it will transfer the suspects to the police for trial in a civilian court, said Meenakshi Ganguly, a senior researcher at the Human Rights Watch.

Given the armys poor record in holding its soldiers accountable, there is no reason to believe that a military court can be trusted to deliver justice, she said. Ganguly said the killing of the three men underscored the urgency for the Indian government to repeal the Armed Forces Special Powers Act.

The act gives soldiers wide powers to shoot, arrest and search suspects, and is widely detested by the people of IHK. afp

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

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## PakSher

Indian state sponsored terrorism needs to be made public. 1 fake encounter out of thousands is a drop in the bucket.


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## Kabir Panthi

*BBC News - The valley at the centre of the Kashmir insurgency*

No, not the Kashmir Valley - but the Neelam Valley. This shows how the people of Pakistan occupied Kashmir are being coerced into terrorism by Pak govt agencies.



> The recent disappearance of two men in the Pakistani-administered Kashmir has once again raised questions over Pakistan's role in the murky militant war in Kashmir.
> 
> They had once worked as guides, who are used by militants needing their local and navigational expertise to traverse the treacherous mountain passes that separate Indian-administered Kashmir from Pakistani-administered Kashmir.
> 
> Relatives of the missing men say they were "picked up" by a couple of Pakistani intelligence officials on the morning of 25 May from their houses in Falakan - a village in the Neelum valley region - and coerced into once again working as guides.
> 
> The story is a familiar one for most Kashmiris living near the 720km (447 miles) Line of Control (LoC) - the de facto boundary that divides the disputed Kashmir region between India and Pakistan.
> 
> But this is the first time the locals have been willing to speak publicly about it.
> 
> Relatives of the men and other residents of Falakan village blocked the main road between Athmuqam and Muzaffarabad on Thursday.
> 
> The protest took place because the administration failed to provide them with any information about the missing guides by the promised date of 10 June.
> 
> The local assistant commissioner and senior police officers negotiated with the protesters, who gave them another week to investigate the matter.
> 
> The protesters have threatened further demonstrations if either the men or their bodies are not handed over to the relatives.
> 
> *'No contact'*
> 
> "Two men of the agency [the name used by local people to describe Pakistan's ISI intelligence services] came to our house on 25 May and asked my husband, Mohammad Iqbal, to accompany them," Zulfan Bibi, a mother of five, told the BBC Urdu service.
> 
> "My husband told them he was getting old and his eyesight had weakened and so it was difficult for him to walk the mountain trails he used to cover in the past. But they threatened us with consequences if he did not go," she said.
> 
> "Later in the evening, those officials came back to inform me that my husband went across the LoC and has since made no contact with them."
> 
> Another woman, Taslim Bibi, whose husband Mohammad Salim was taken away by the same officials, tells a similar story.
> 
> "They wanted him to lead mujahideen [militants] to the other [Indian] side," she says.
> 
> Their story came to light on 2 June when the people of Falakan village blocked traffic on the road that connects Athmuqam, the administrative centre of Neelum valley, with the regional capital Muzaffarabad.
> 
> They were protesting over the refusal of local intelligence officials and the administration to inform them about the status of the two men.
> 
> *Militant manpower*
> 
> An embarrassed local administration ordered a police inquiry, but residents believe the police have no leverage over the security agencies operating in the area.
> Neelum valley The area has frequently been subjected to Indian shelling
> 
> The question is, why would the Pakistani intelligence officials "abduct" these men?
> 
> Two reasons come to mind.
> 
> One, the men received advance fees for leading a group of militants into the Indian part of Kashmir and then became reluctant to fulfil their promise.
> 
> Second, like most guides and porters, they switched to other professions when Pakistan put tabs on militant activity in 2004, and were therefore not willing to get back into the game.
> 
> Pakistani intelligence services are widely believed to have organised and regulated the infiltration of Islamist militants into Indian-administered Kashmir since 1988-89.
> 
> That year, the Soviet pullout from Afghanistan left a surplus of trained militant manpower which they could divert to Kashmir, analysts say.
> 
> Since most of these militants were non-Kashmiri, their handlers needed local people with the knowledge of the terrain to work as guides.
> 
> *Worst hit*
> 
> During 1990s, tens of thousands of villagers from the LoC region were earning a living by working as guides and porters for the "agency" during the May-September timeframe used by militants to launch their attacks.
> Soldier in Indian-administered Kashmir The mountains of Kashmir are renowned for their harsh terrain
> 
> Every time the Indians suspected a forthcoming incursion, they would start shelling the Pakistani positions and militants' camps - both invariably located in or close to villages on the Pakistani side.
> 
> Neelum valley was the worst hit.
> 
> The entire 200km (124 miles) stretch of the Neelum River gorge that runs in an east-west direction is exposed to Indians who command heights along the left bank of the river.
> 
> Along with Bagh region and Lipa valley to its south, Neelum valley is also the most suitable launching point for militants, as it offers plenty of cover in terms of forests, deep ravines and high altitude passes that are difficult to traverse.
> 
> In the 1990s, the Neelum valley was subjected to devastating Indian fire that completely destroyed its roads, health and education infrastructure.
> 
> For more than a decade, it remained under virtual siege. Bunkers became an essential part of civilian life.
> 
> The situation eased in November 2003, when Pakistan and India called a ceasefire across the LoC and started peace talks.
> 
> The ceasefire still holds, but since 2008 there have been reports of renewed militant activity along some sections of the LoC.
> 
> The first independent confirmation of this came in May 2009 when 12 people died in an avalanche in the desolate Bimla mountain range of Neelum valley, close to the LoC.
> 
> Official sources have since confirmed the victims were members of a militant team trying to cross the boundary.
> 
> In June 2009, the BBC Urdu service published excerpts from a secret police report confirming that militants had started setting up bases close to the LoC in Pakistani-administered Kashmir.
> 
> These developments are making the people of Neelum valley nervous.
> 
> In August 2008, hundreds of people twice hit the streets in Athmuqam town to protest against renewed militant activity in the area, saying they feared the Indians may resume shelling of their villages and homes.
> 
> The protests of 2 and 10 June are the latest reminder that Pakistani officials may not have abandoned the militant option just yet.

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## Prometheus

and the source is bbc...................CAN BE CLAIMED AS CREDIBLE.

good to see people of Pakistan administered kashmir raising their voice against terrorism

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## EjazR

*DAWN.COM | Columnists | The Kashmir dilemma*

Gen Ayub Khan, when at the helm of the Pakistan government, is believed to have told Soviet Unions Prime Minister Kosygin that if India were to come to a settlement with Sheikh Abdullah, heading the Jammu and Kashmir government at that time, Pakistan might accept the agreement.

Soon after, Sheikh Abdullah was detained for more than 11 years in India. He had reportedly asked New Delhi to make the terms of the Instrument of Accession good. The state had given to the centre only three subjects: defence, foreign affairs and communications.

Since then the All Parties Hurriyat Conference has jumped into the arena. Its agenda goes far beyond Sheikh Abdullahs or, for that matter, that of the ruling National Conference. Unfortunately, the Hurriyat has split into hardliners and moderates.

Whatever its verdict on the government headed by Omar Abdullah, Sheikh Abdullahs grandson, the latter has made the security forces accountable. The suspension by the army of a major and removal of a colonel from service for their role in dubious encounters is not a small achievement. In fact, he has ordered an inquiry into fake encounters of the past, and strict orders have been given to the security forces not to violate human rights.

Hurriyat chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq said: We expected the prime minister to start a bold political initiative on Kashmir but nothing of that sort has come through. Obviously, the Hurriyat has not taken into account Dr Manmohan Singhs message that the government was committed to pushing forward the process of negotiation.

The Indian prime minister wanted the Hurriyat to come on board before India held a series of ministerial-level meetings with Pakistan. It is naïve on the part of Mirwaiz to demand a public announcement on what the government has in view. A dialogue is the only way to hammer out differences. In the case of Kashmir, Pakistan is also a party.

True, Srinagar was shut and hundreds were on the street when the prime minister arrived there. But this is the exercise over which the Hurriyat has gone many a time before. People are tired. They see very little on the horizon. They have sacrificed nearly all that they had.

I think the failure of the Hurriyat is in having preferred the bullet to the ballot. They revolted when they, young and idealistic, witnessed elections in Kashmir in 1987. Indeed, the polls were rigged. But going across the border, getting training and returning with weapons was the reaction of angry, helpless people. Violence, as some Hurriyat leaders have realised, was not an option which could have yielded results. Coming into conflict with the state which is many times stronger was foolhardy.

Believe me I am not underestimating the sacrifices of the people. Very few movements in the world have been so determined and so sustained.

The Hurriyat should have returned to the ballot box after the violent agitation it had launched was having diminishing returns. In violence, the people in India witnessed a forceful cessation of Kashmir, considered part of the country. The Hurriyat movement was seen as a challenge to the countrys integrity.

The Hurriyat should have tried to capture the Jammu and Kashmir assembly. Instead, they propagated the boycott of elections. Their argument was that the polls under the aegis of the Indian Election Commission were not acceptable to them. They proposed supervision by UN observers. No sovereign country could have accepted this.

Had the Hurriyat leaders demanded that Indian human rights activists should be the observers, they might have had the consent of New Delhi. But would the Hurriyat have won? This uncertainty might have been the main reason for it not participating in elections which have their own dynamics. Popular agitators are not normally put in charge.

The Hurriyats tilt towards Pakistan, probably necessitated by the situation in which they were, has distanced it from India. That the solution of Kashmir is not possible without Islamabad is understandable. But the Hurriyat did not have to play the Muslim card. It only created further doubts in the mind of the majority in India. After the exodus of most Hindu Pandits from Kashmir, the valley has nearly 96 per cent Muslims.

But this is the Hurriyats weakness, not strength. Not having the support of the Hindu-majority Jammu and the Buddhist-majority Ladakh, the Hurriyat has forfeited the right to speak for the entire state. It should have at least wooed the Kashmiri Pandits, many still in camps, to return their homes. Some Hurriyat leaders have realised this a bit late. But the party as such still cannot pursue the matter wholeheartedly because a few among them do not want Hindus back till the Kashmir solution is finally settled.

Even in their demand, the Hurriyat has been equivocal. They have oscillated between autonomy and independence. Realising that Pakistan is equally opposed to independence, as India is, the Hurriyat wants a solution which is acceptable to the people of Kashmir. But that has not been spelled out. The fact that Jammu and Ladakh are nowhere in the picture means that the Hurriyats demand is only for the Valley. This brings the Hurriyat in conflict with what Manmohan Singh has said many a time that he has no mandate to change the borders.

After the 9/11 attack in New York, the scenario in the region from Afghanistan to India has changed beyond proportions. America and Pakistan one hand and India and Pakistan on the other are trying to come to terms with new developments. Kashmir too figures but in the larger context.

The Hurriyat might do better if it were to confine talks between Srinagar and Delhi till India and Pakistan reach a settlement on Kashmir. The Hurriyat should ask New Delhi first to restore the ante-1952 situation where Srinagar gave it three subjects: foreign affairs, defence and communications.

_The writer is a senior journalist based in Delhi._


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## third eye

Too much water has flown under the bridge to expect a return to pre 52 status.

The selective demands relating to Kashmir only & not Jammu & Laddakh to smells of ulterior motives.

The Communists too often feel differently with GOI on numerous issues yet seek change by participating in the electoral process. Sticking to the stand of ' not accepting' the Indian constitution etc is making Hurriyat dig itself deeper into the hole it now finds itself in.

In India change happens only thru the ballot box. As MMS has also said changing borders is not an option.


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## EjazR

*Prime Minister uses Urdu to connect with Kahsmiris | ummid.com*

Srinagar: His finger right on the pulse of his audience, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh Monday connected well with Kashmiris when he addressed a gathering in the language they understand the best - Urdu.

At the fifth convocation of an agricultural university here, Manmohan Singh, who loves listening to Urdu poetry of Ghalib, spoke in chaste Urdu for his nearly 25-minute speech praying to "khuda" (god) for the "taraqqi" (prosperity) and "kaamyaabi" (success) of Kashmiris.

He addressed them as "doston" (friends), knowing the "ahamiyat" (importance - the word he used frequently) of the language while addressing the "naujawan" (youth) of the state that has been battling separatist violence since 1989.

"Hamare naujawan hamaare mulk ka mustaqbil hain. Hamein apne naujawanon se bahut badi umeedein hain," he said about the expectations he has from the youth of the only Muslim majority state in India. Urdu is the official language of Jammu and Kashmir.

The prime minister chose to call it "Hindustan" rather than India or Bharat "where Kashmiri youth can find lots of avenues for their 'zahni (psychological), jazbaati (emotional) and peshawarana (professional) taraqqi".

It was Manmohan Singh's empathetic tone toward disillusioned Kashmiris that attracted rapt attention from the audience inviting frequent applause.

"Main jaanta hoon ki behtareen taaleem haasil karne ke baad bhi kam mauqe milne se kis qadr maayoosi hoti hai... Hum rozgaar ke mufeed mauqe faraham karenge," the prime minister said sharing the disillusion of Kashmiri youth and assuring them that adequate employment opportunities will be created.

He did mention that he was aware of the alleged human rights violations in Jammu and Kashmir by security forces, particularly in the context of three Kashmiri civilians purportedly killed by army in a staged shootout.

"Human rights ki paamali (abuse) se mutalliq aapki shikayaton se main waaqif hoon," he said, adding "salaamati ke daste (security forces)" have been strictly ordered to show "sabr-o-tahammul (patience)" and protect "huqooq (rights)" of the people.

About the economic reconstruction and development of the state, he said the government had initiated a programme of "iqtisaadi taameer-e-nau aur taraqqi" for which he had consulted "behtareen iqtisaadi maahireen (the best economic experts)".

He also congratulated the students of the university who were handed over degrees.

"Main unko mubarakbaad deta hoon jinhone aaj degree haasil ki... Kucch pecheeda masaail ke bawajood main aap sabe ke liye roshan mustaqbil dekh raha hoon... Khuda kare aap ke raaste roshan hon," he said praying for the bright future of Kashmiri youth.


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## EjazR

*BBC News - The valley at the centre of the Kashmir insurgency*

By M Ilyas Khan
BBC News, Islamabad

*The recent disappearance of two men in the Pakistani-administered Kashmir has once again raised questions over Pakistan's role in the murky militant war in Kashmir.*

They had once worked as guides, who are used by militants needing their local and navigational expertise to traverse the treacherous mountain passes that separate Indian-administered Kashmir from Pakistani-administered Kashmir.

Relatives of the missing men say they were "picked up" by a couple of Pakistani intelligence officials on the morning of 25 May from their houses in Falakan - a village in the Neelum valley region - and coerced into once again working as guides.

The story is a familiar one for most Kashmiris living near the 720km (447 miles) Line of Control (LoC) - the de facto boundary that divides the disputed Kashmir region between India and Pakistan.

But this is the first time the locals have been willing to speak publicly about it.

Relatives of the men and other residents of Falakan village blocked the main road between Athmuqam and Muzaffarabad on Thursday.

The protest took place because the administration failed to provide them with any information about the missing guides by the promised date of 10 June.

The local assistant commissioner and senior police officers negotiated with the protesters, who gave them another week to investigate the matter.

The protesters have threatened further demonstrations if either the men or their bodies are not handed over to the relatives.

*'No contact' *

"Two men of the agency [the name used by local people to describe Pakistan's ISI intelligence services] came to our house on 25 May and asked my husband, Mohammad Iqbal, to accompany them," Zulfan Bibi, a mother of five, told the BBC Urdu service.

"My husband told them he was getting old and his eyesight had weakened and so it was difficult for him to walk the mountain trails he used to cover in the past. But they threatened us with consequences if he did not go," she said.

"Later in the evening, those officials came back to inform me that my husband went across the LoC and has since made no contact with them."

Another woman, Taslim Bibi, whose husband Mohammad Salim was taken away by the same officials, tells a similar story.

"They wanted him to lead mujahideen [militants] to the other [Indian] side," she says.

Their story came to light on 2 June when the people of Falakan village blocked traffic on the road that connects Athmuqam, the administrative centre of Neelum valley, with the regional capital Muzaffarabad.

They were protesting over the refusal of local intelligence officials and the administration to inform them about the status of the two men.

*Militant manpower*

An embarrassed local administration ordered a police inquiry, but residents believe the police have no leverage over the security agencies operating in the area.

The question is, why would the Pakistani intelligence officials "abduct" these men?

Two reasons come to mind.

One, the men received advance fees for leading a group of militants into the Indian part of Kashmir and then became reluctant to fulfil their promise.

Second, like most guides and porters, they switched to other professions when Pakistan put tabs on militant activity in 2004, and were therefore not willing to get back into the game.

Pakistani intelligence services are widely believed to have organised and regulated the infiltration of Islamist militants into Indian-administered Kashmir since 1988-89.

That year, the Soviet pullout from Afghanistan left a surplus of trained militant manpower which they could divert to Kashmir, analysts say.

Since most of these militants were non-Kashmiri, their handlers needed local people with the knowledge of the terrain to work as guides.

*Worst hit*

During 1990s, tens of thousands of villagers from the LoC region were earning a living by working as guides and porters for the "agency" during the May-September timeframe used by militants to launch their attacks.

Every time the Indians suspected a forthcoming incursion, they would start shelling the Pakistani positions and militants' camps - both invariably located in or close to villages on the Pakistani side.

Neelum valley was the worst hit.

The entire 200km (124 miles) stretch of the Neelum River gorge that runs in an east-west direction is exposed to Indians who command heights along the left bank of the river.

Along with Bagh region and Lipa valley to its south, Neelum valley is also the most suitable launching point for militants, as it offers plenty of cover in terms of forests, deep ravines and high altitude passes that are difficult to traverse.

In the 1990s, the Neelum valley was subjected to devastating Indian fire that completely destroyed its roads, health and education infrastructure.

For more than a decade, it remained under virtual siege. Bunkers became an essential part of civilian life.

The situation eased in November 2003, when Pakistan and India called a ceasefire across the LoC and started peace talks.

The ceasefire still holds, but since 2008 there have been reports of renewed militant activity along some sections of the LoC.

The first independent confirmation of this came in May 2009 when 12 people died in an avalanche in the desolate Bimla mountain range of Neelum valley, close to the LoC.

Official sources have since confirmed the victims were members of a militant team trying to cross the boundary.

In June 2009, the BBC Urdu service published excerpts from a secret police report confirming that militants had started setting up bases close to the LoC in Pakistani-administered Kashmir.

These developments are making the people of Neelum valley nervous.

In August 2008, hundreds of people twice hit the streets in Athmuqam town to protest against renewed militant activity in the area, saying they feared the Indians may resume shelling of their villages and homes.

The protests of 2 and 10 June are the latest reminder that Pakistani officials may not have abandoned the militant option just yet.

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## MarkTheTruth

India can chain my limbs but she cannot shackle my heart; India can break my bones but she cannot crush my will and determination, Jalil Andrabi, the Ex-Chairman, Kashmir Commission of Jurists uttered these words in Geneva, addressing the UN Sub Commission on Kashmir, on August 17, 1995. He is no more in this world but his words are still resounding in the blood-dripping valley of Kashmir providing an everlasting, never ending warmth and courage to the freedom-fighters in the Indian Held Kashmir. A few months after his address, he was picked up by notorious Indian Rashtria Rifles, tortured and finally killed in custody. But his brutal murder could not suppress the blazing passion of the helpless Kashmiris and today after so many years, we can see the freedom movement still going on in a more zestful manner. In the Occupied Kashmir the Indian security forces are doing their best to curb and crush the freedom movement but the freedom fighters are more determined. Fake encounters, rapes, kidnapping and so many other ruthless weapons seem ineffective in front of their determination. The Kashmiris are determined to prove that they are not slaves; they are the masters of their own destiny.

Killing of innocent Kashmiris under the shield of fake encounters has become a routine matter, says The Hindu on 15th of May ,2010.According to the details, a few Army men killed five civilians in a fake encounter in Jammu and Kashmir. They entered into a conspiracy to pick up a few innocent civilians and stage-managed an encounter to create the impression that militants responsible for the killing of 36 Sikhs on March 20, 2000 were neutralized. Their purpose behind this fake encounter was to get out of turn promotion and win cash awards. In another incident of the same nature earlier in Siachen, a few Indian army officers had constructed bunkers, and had them demolished by firing a rocket. They ordered soldiers to act to be video-graphed as dead soldiers. They made them swear before God that they would not reveal the fake killing.

The helpless people of Machil area of Kupwara District would never be able to forget the intervening night of April 29 and 30, when three residents of Nadihal Rafiabad, Muhammad Shafi Lone, Shehzad Ahmed and Riyaz Ahmed were killed in a staged encounter. Their bodies were exhumed from a graveyard in Kalaroos, Kupwara and identified by their families According to the details, on the directions of Major Opinder of 4 Rajput Rifles, a trooper of Territorial Army, a former SPO and an army agent had motivated the youth to work as laborers for the army in lieu of handsome money. It is stated that later the youth were handed over to the army and subsequently killed in a fake encounter on the orders of the Major. During the investigation the army officials had claimed to have foiled an infiltration bid and recovered 5 AK rifles, over 200 rounds of ammunition and even Pakistani currency from the killed youth. The 4 Rajput Rifles unit of the army involved in the killing is yet to handover to the police the arms and ammunition, which it claimed to have recovered from the youth. The rage and fury over this fake encounter has created a lot of law and order disturbance in the area. People are demanding an open judicial inquiry of this fake encounter.

All time increasing atrocities against the innocent people have made the social religious, economic and political life of Kashmiris very agonizing and painful. The Kashmiris are of the opinion that there could be no peace in the region unless the valley is in the cruel clutches of the Indian security Agencies. The government of India has provided a legal shelter to these atrocities through the inhuman law called Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA). In fact this act was designed for the North Eastern Indian States in 1958 for a year but it is still very successfully being used in the Indian Held Kashmir. The Indian army has been given a free hand to use AFSPA in the name of insurgency and militancy. International Commission on Human Rights has recently issued a report which points out the missing of more than ten thousand people in the last twenty years in the Indian Occupied territory of Kashmir. It is feared that most of these missing people have been killed in fake encounters. The commission has pointed out towards another very pathetic situation; the people killed in fake encounters and in police custody are usually buried in mass graves near Army and Police camps which are usually out of the access of media or the common public.

The Kashmiris are so helpless that they are unable even to protest against Indian atrocities. Those who raise their voices against the Indian cruelties have to face inexpressible torture and turmoil. They are pushed into dark and narrow prison cells without any reference or record. Their families are most of the time unaware of their being in the custody of the Indian army. It has also been reported that such protestors are so inhumanly tortured that they very often lose their lives. The atrocities chalked out by the Indian government in the Occupied Kashmir sometimes become unbearable even for the military officers. Inwardly so many of them dont want to be a part of this viciousness and cruelty; the only door left open to them is to quit the army services. An increasing trend of army officers leaving the force mid-way has been very much alarming for the Indian government in the last five years. More than 1,000 officers quitted the army between 2005 and 2007. The number of officers who sought premature retirement in 2008 is reportedly more than a 1,000 -- almost equal to the number who left in the past three years.

The Kashmir issue is a continuous bone of contention between the two nuclear countries Pakistan and India. The two countries are always in a state of war heading towards the brink of nuclear catastrophe just because of the Kashmir dispute. The confrontation on this issue is destroying peace of the whole of South-Asian region. The government of Pakistan has always been eager to settle the issue through negotiations and table talk. So many confidence building measures have been suggested to the Indian authorities but India never showed any positive gesture in this regard. Whenever there is a peace process going on between the two countries, India tries to disrupt it. The basic purpose behind this disruption is to keep Pakistan away from the demand of peace and prosperity of the Kashmiri people.

Unluckily the international community has been ignoring the human rights violation in the Occupied Kashmir for the last 63 years. During all this period the people of Kashmir have suffered senseless oppression at the hands of the occupying power. Thousands have been incarcerated; an untold number tortured or maimed. The families of over 10,000 people disappeared within the past twenty years, are still waiting for the return of their loved ones without knowing whether they are dead or alive. This entire tragic situation is simply because of the denial of the right of self-determination to the people of Kashmir. The people of Kashmir need justice. They are silently looking towards all those forces which claim to be the care-takers of universal peace and harmony. Such forces must keep in their mind a time-tested principle, Justice delayed, justice denied.

The writer is a Pakistan based analyst on defense and strategic affairs.






MTT - Pakistan - Syed Salahuddin vowed to wage a holy war to liberate the Himalayan state of Kashmir from Indian Occupation





MTT - Pakistan - Rape and killing incidents triggered a wave of protests across the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley


MTT - Pakistan - Ten to One - That is how the Indian Army treat the Kashmiris in Occupied Kashmir

Kashmir - The Land of Passions

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## Rocketsingh

thk god writer is pak based

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## chachag

One question to Mod ..*Personal blogs are allowed in PDF?????*...... if yes so have many more than this


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## RobbieS

Syed Salahuddin is the founder of Hizbul Mujahideen, a declared terrorist organization by the UN. The author is actually supporting terrorism and this is against the forum rules as I understand. Lets see how fast the Mods act on this one...

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## TaimiKhan

RobbieS said:


> Syed Salahuddin is the founder of Hizbul Mujahideen, a declared terrorist organization by the UN. The author is actually supporting terrorism and this is against the forum rules as I understand. Lets see how fast the Mods act on this one...



Point out the lines which ares supporting terrorism. 

All i could see was the mentioning of the atrocities of the Indian Security Forces, killing and raping of Kashmirs and the oppressed peoples struggle against the Indian occupiers and the question about justice denied to these people. 

Where is it supporting terrorism ?? 

Did it said, innocent Indians should be killed ?? Or bomb blasts should be done ?? While Indian Security Forces are not the innocent, rather they are the aggressors and occupiers. 

So plz highlight the points which are supporting terrorism. 

Do remember, Kashmir is a disputed territory and its people want independence from Indian occupation & brutality, so keep in mind the difference between terrorism and freedom struggle.

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## MarkTheTruth

In addition to what TaimiKhan has said. Personal blogs or national websites, all in my opinion, are normally and always welcome in such discussion forums.

Atleast, I shall personally welcome the posts from personal blogs and websites from Indian side.


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## MarkTheTruth

And about Syed Salahuddin Sahab... He is a great man and a freedom fighter, who devoted his entire life for the people of Kashmir. He and all of his type want only and only the right of self determination for the people of Kashmir. I shall suggest you to consider it.


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## rohailmalhi

TaimiKhan said:


> Point out the lines which ares supporting terrorism.
> 
> All i could see was the mentioning of the atrocities of the Indian Security Forces, killing and raping of Kashmirs and the oppressed peoples struggle against the Indian occupiers and the question about justice denied to these people.
> 
> Where is it supporting terrorism ??
> 
> Did it said, innocent Indians should be killed ?? Or bomb blasts should be done ?? While Indian Security Forces are not the innocent, rather they are the aggressors and occupiers.
> 
> So plz highlight the points which are supporting terrorism.
> 
> Do remember, Kashmir is a disputed territory and its people want independence from Indian occupation & brutality, so keep in mind the difference between terrorism and freedom struggle.



this whole article is about the *indian security forces terrorism* in Occupied Kashmir . so plz delete this thread. as it is showing the truth abt indian security forces . Mods plz act fast .


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## KS

The sooner u people understand not only Salahuddin but even if the father of salahuddin comes Kashmir is going nowere out of India,the better for peace in South Asia.

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## TaimiKhan

Karthic Sri said:


> The sooner u people understand not only Salahuddin but even if the father of salahuddin comes Kashmir is going nowere out of India,the better for peace in South Asia.



Well why not you guys also understand a few things, that would also be better for peace in this region. 

First understand yourself, then advice us to understand.


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## RobbieS

TaimiKhan said:


> Point out the lines which ares supporting terrorism.
> 
> All i could see was the mentioning of the atrocities of the Indian Security Forces, killing and raping of Kashmirs and the oppressed peoples struggle against the Indian occupiers and the question about justice denied to these people.
> 
> Where is it supporting terrorism ??
> 
> Did it said, innocent Indians should be killed ?? Or bomb blasts should be done ?? While Indian Security Forces are not the innocent, rather they are the aggressors and occupiers.
> 
> So plz highlight the points which are supporting terrorism.
> 
> Do remember, Kashmir is a disputed territory and its people want independence from Indian occupation & brutality, so keep in mind the difference between terrorism and freedom struggle.



So I guess praising a terrorist figure different? Fair enough.



> And about Syed Salahuddin Sahab... He is a great man and a freedom fighter, who devoted his entire life for the people of Kashmir. He and all of his type want only and only the right of self determination for the people of Kashmir. I shall suggest you to consider it.

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## KS

TaimiKhan said:


> Well why not you guys also understand a few things, that would also be better for peace in this region.
> 
> First understand yourself, then advice us to understand.



we have understood very well that we r very much capable of keeping Kashmir with us...come wat may.

Now guys its ur turn to understand that the reverse is true for u.

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## TaimiKhan

RobbieS said:


> So I guess praising a terrorist figure different? Fair enough.



Why don't you first answer my question first which i asked in reply to your complain.


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## TaimiKhan

Karthic Sri said:


> we have understood very well that we r very much capable of keeping Kashmir with us...come wat may.
> 
> Now guys its ur turn to understand that the reverse is true for u.



Thanks, but we have a very good idea how much has been understood by whom. 

So kindly keep the advices to yourself.


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## KS

TaimiKhan said:


> Thanks, but we have a very good idea how much has been understood by whom.
> 
> So kindly keep the advices to yourself.



Fine.....then we r ready as ever....bring it on..

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## TaimiKhan

Karthic Sri said:


> Fine.....then we r ready as ever....bring it on..



Good for you.


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## Jade

The Indian State of Kashmir has no restriction of freedom of expression; any news of even a small skirmish is hence quickly highlighted to the world. This doesn&#8217;t mean human rights are grave violated as portrayed in the article

Most anti-India propaganda will only speak about the sufferings of Kashmiris in the Indian state, but cleverly avoid talking of the fate of the Kashmiris on the other side of the border

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## MarkTheTruth

jade1982 said:


> The Indian State of Kashmir (Call it Occupied Kashmir)has no restriction of freedom of expression; any news of even a small skirmish is hence quickly highlighted to the world. This doesnt mean human rights are grave violated as portrayed in the article



WHAT A JOKE


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## desiman

TaimiKhan said:


> Point out the lines which ares supporting terrorism.
> 
> All i could see was the mentioning of the atrocities of the Indian Security Forces, killing and raping of Kashmirs and the oppressed peoples struggle against the Indian occupiers and the question about justice denied to these people.
> 
> Where is it supporting terrorism ??
> 
> Did it said, innocent Indians should be killed ?? Or bomb blasts should be done ?? While Indian Security Forces are not the innocent, rather they are the aggressors and occupiers.
> 
> So plz highlight the points which are supporting terrorism.
> 
> Do remember, Kashmir is a disputed territory and its people want independence from Indian occupation & brutality, so keep in mind the difference between terrorism and freedom struggle.



He is a terrorist and will be dealt in the manner that he deserves. Killing anyone is not justified by any reason, Disputed territory or not, he is still a terrorist. Definitions do not change because of motives.

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## moxin

Kashmir banay ga Pakistan.

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## abrahams

kashmir... will always be a part of india.... i dont know why some pakistanis think all kashmiris wants to join them.... first off... only a minority wants to join pakistan, mainly they want to be independent... .

second off...each of the wars which pakistan started with india... they expected huge or mass support from the kashmiris... but they miserably failed at that logic... 

third off... india has more if not almost equal population of muslims as pakistan... so no way... there wont be another country for muslims until the enitre muslims in india is well taken care off...

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## Kashmiri Nationalist

desiman said:


> He is a terrorist and will be dealt in the manner that he deserves. Killing anyone is not justified by any reason, Disputed territory or not, he is still a terrorist. Definitions do not change because of motives.



I agree, the Indian army (&elite) will pay in kind for their terrorism in Kashmir. We cannot even put these disputed organization at the same level of human rights abuses. Now, my advice to the Indian state is to love her children more than the oppression on the freedom of others. Look at the Indian Parliament Attack, Mumbai attacks. Many innocent people had to die even though they are not involved with the issue, some not even directly - i.e children. The case is the same in Kashmir, why does the Indian Army molest, kidnapp & murder so many? Many as Indian members have said, want a peaceful life so why does the Indian army knock down their dreams (and soul) with the barrel of a gun?

The Mumbai & Parliament attacks can be classified as retialiation for the Indian Army's massacres in Kashmir, but the matter remains the same - innocent blood is being spilt. The Indian state can stop this atrociety in itself quite simply, by holding a right of self determination pleblicite. I am sure Pakistan would not disagree if the Indian State make a big media fuss over it. 

For those saying the murders in Kashmir were the killings of, in their word 'terrorists'. All I can say is this; there are not 50,000+ fighters, and most of the existing (aswell as deceased) are men not women. The amount of women raped to the amount of fighters and in their ranks, women is unmatchable. Please do not look blindly at the truth when it is staring at you.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Interesting, however words are only effective if backed up by actions.


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## nForce

There have been instances when some Jawan of the Indian army have been reported to be involved in activities in which he should not have been.Indian Army has its own rules and all of them have been dealt with properly....These r exceptional cases and nothing like the mass murder of Est Pakistani civilians is happening there.

We need to understand that the Indian Reserve forces and the Army is mainly in Kashmir to encounter the terrorists,and it is doing its job pretty good there.They have managed to restore peace to the valley....Nowadays ,we can hardly see any news about militant attacks in Kashmir being reported in Indian newspapers and television,which was quite common even 7-8 years back.Back in those times ,almost everyday there was a terrorist attack in Kashmir...

The present US onslaught against the terrorists in Afghanistan has also dealt a big blow.It has resulted in the drying up of funds of many terrorist organizations...The terrorists are pursuing a lost cause here..They need to understand that they can never win over the land by sending one or two brainwashed,uneducated youth hell bent on dying ,with an AK-47 in hand....Well massive pushes were also tried(read Kargil war),but nevertheless,they were all thwarted back....


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## Nemesis

> And about Syed Salahuddin Sahab... He is a great man and a freedom fighter, who devoted his entire life for the people of Kashmir. He and all of his type want only and only the right of self determination for the people of Kashmir. I shall suggest you to consider it.



No, he is a terrorist responsible not only for the death of Indian soldiers but also Indian civilians and hence should be shot on sight. 



> I agree, the Indian army (&elite) will pay in kind for their terrorism in Kashmir. We cannot even put these disputed organization at the same level of human rights abuses. Now, my advice to the Indian state is to love her children more than the oppression on the freedom of others. Look at the Indian Parliament Attack, Mumbai attacks. Many innocent people had to die even though they are not involved with the issue, some not even directly - i.e children. The case is the same in Kashmir, why does the Indian Army molest, kidnapp & murder so many? Many as Indian members have said, want a peaceful life so why does the Indian army knock down their dreams (and soul) with the barrel of a gun?



How many soldiers were present in Kashmir before Pakistan started sending terrorists to our part of Kashmir in 89? If Kashmiris really wanted to be with Pakistan, would they have really turned against Pakistani instigators in 1965 and informed the Indian army? Think with a brain and don't base your opinions on propaganda. 



> Do remember, Kashmir is a disputed territory and its people want independence from Indian occupation & brutality, so keep in mind the difference between terrorism and freedom struggle.



Are you saying that these "freedom fighters" only attack soldiers? Killing of civilians deliberately to cause fear among the local population is terrorism, irrespective of whether it takes place in a so called disputed territory. These "freedom fighters" who your government only "morally supports" kills civilians in Kashmir and in other parts of India. They are religious extremists who should be annihilated from existence.

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## EjazR

MarkTheTruth said:


> And about Syed Salahuddin Sahab... He is a great man and a freedom fighter, who devoted his entire life for the people of Kashmir. He and all of his type want only and only the right of self determination for the people of Kashmir. I shall suggest you to consider it.



I hope you are not serious. This "freedom fighter" has NEVER crossed the LoC to fight Indian forces but has sent scores of young Kashmirs and other Pakistanis to their death. Whats more he marries the young widows of these militants. How shameful can someone be?

*Unrest in Hizbul as Salahuddin marries slain militants widow*

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## RobbieS

TaimiKhan said:


> Why don't you first answer my question first which i asked in reply to your complain.



Here's my answer - No he didnt advocate killing any civilians in his blog that he quoted. But he's deifying the very people who are responsible for the killings of innocents. I dont see any difference between praising a terrorist act and praising a terrorist. The sin and the sinner are no different for me when it comes to terrorism.


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## PlanetWarrior

Oh well another Kashmir thread which ended up being derailed. My personal view is that the name of Kashmir should be changed. Perhaps we should just give it a Chinese name and start off afresh


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## Swift

moxin said:


> Kashmir banay ga Pakistan.



If this is on topic Taimi , don't you think the response it attracts is also on topic.Do you really think it can happen without Pakistan Army and Govt intervention . Or you don't want the discussion to take that route. I this a guided discussion?


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## DesiGuy

*No Army likes to wage war against its own people. Worse, if the fight drags on 20 years. The 1.13-million strong Indian Army is no exception.* It would jump at the chance to leave the Valley and return to barracks, but only if policy-makers delivered their end of the bargain. Is the time right for this? Militancy in Jammu and Kashmir is at its lowest ebb since it erupted in 1989-1990. But there are two hurdles. First, will Pakistans real power centre, its army, turn off the terror tap? Second, can the paramilitary forces and J&K police take over from the Army? On both counts, the answer seems to be no.

We are trapped in the hold part of the shape, clear, hold and build strategy, says a lieutenant-general, with extensive experience in J&K, speaking on condition of anonymity. He adds gloomily, We will be stuck there for the foreseeable future. *With so much money being pumped in, vested interests have developed all around. A political solution, with economic development, is needed.*

It has been an arduous task for the Army to shape, clear and hold the internal security environment in J&K. Protracted counter-insurgency operations in J&K and the North-East have blunted its operational readiness for external enemies and corroded its discipline and moral fabric. Last weeks suspension of a major and the removal of a colonel from command for an alleged fake encounter on April 30 is just the latest example of this. The Army has slowly moved away from using kills as the benchmark for evaluating a battalions performance for awards and citations, but the pressure to deliver results remains.

*Consider cold statistics. More than 1,500 cases of human rights violations have been filed against the Army in the last two decades. Granted that a majority of them  the Army puts the figure at 97%  were found to be fake or motivated but what of the rest? *The Army takes recourse to the iron-fisted Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) to refuse to hand the accused to civilian authorities. It says it has its own internal mechanisms to deal with aberrations under the Army Act, 1950.

We have punished 104 personnel, including 40 officers, in the cases found true. We have made human rights a top-priority in last five-six years. But we cannot allow soldiers battling terrorists, which cannot be equated with normal law and order duties, to get no legal protection and be left to civilian courts in the event of something going wrong. It will hit troop morale, says a senior officer.

General V K Singh, who took over as Army chief in April, has declared that any dilution in AFSPA will impinge adversely on the manner in which armed forces operate in counter-insurgency duties. Consequently, the Centre consistently refuses to give permission to the J&K government to prosecute soldiers accused of human rights violations. During 2007-2009, there were 23 such requests but the ministry of defence did not permit any one of them to go ahead.

This does not, of course, detract from the Armys success in controlling militancy in J&K. *Militancy is not quite dead. Pakistan may be acting against the Taliban on account of US pressure but it has let the anti-India terror factory remain active.* There are at least 32 terrorist training camps, with an estimated 2,200 militants, operational in Pakistan and ***. Unsurprisingly, the Army contends no one should rush to assume all is well in J&K.

*According to estimates, there are just about 500-600 hardcore terrorists  half of them of foreign origin  in J&K at present.* They still pose a threat, but it is marked reduction on the numbers  more than 2,500  bandied about in the 1990s.

With the CRPF (which has around 70,000 troops in J&K) and police forces still not really trained or equipped for the swift operations required, coupled with their poor leadership, any large-scale de-induction of Army troops will only weaken the counter-insurgency grid, says a Rashtriya Rifles officer. Whenever the Army has been removed from an area the militants and their over-ground workers begin to dominate there.

Defence minister A K Antony also believes that the terrorist threat remains very real. The quantum of troops deployed in J&K is continuously assessed and reviewed by the Army based on the changing threat perception, he says. The Army has moved two mountain divisions of around 35,000 men from the state in the last few years but further reduction can only happen when conflict management turns to conflict resolution. 



Under Siege: 20 yrs of AFSPA in J&K - Special Report - Sunday TOI - Home - The Times of India


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## MarkTheTruth

According to the record. The X indian leaders, including nehru, gandhi patel had repeatedly promised with the people of Kashmir that they will give them the right of self determination. The promises broken.

I am sure you would had listned all the speeches given by them to the people of Kshmir and their repeated msgs to the Govt. of Pakistan as well?


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## Rocketsingh

and pak people says take ur army back.it's good that militancy is low.

*thread will not give anything ,a lot of threads which r running and which stuck at this point on this topic*


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## MarkTheTruth

Syed Ali Gilani arrested in Srinagar



Srinagar, June 12:In occupied Kashmir, the authorities arrested veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Geelani in Srinagar and shifted him to Humhama police station on Saturday.

The move was made following the killing of an 11th class student, Tufail Ahmed Matoo, by Indian police. Tufail was killed while dozens other people were injured when the police resorted to brute force to break up peaceful demonstrators in Srinagar on Friday.

Earlier, Syed Ali Geelani addressing a gathering at Ompora in Budgam said that the US should support the Kashmiris right to self-determination if it was sincere to resolve the Kashmir dispute. The veteran Hurriyet leader, while reacting to the US Assistant Secretary of State, Robert Blacks statement, said, America should stress more on giving right to self-determination to Kashmiris than Indo-Pak dialogue.

He said that Kashmir was not a border dispute between Pakistan and India but it was an issue pertaining to the future of millions of Kashmiri people and the international community should support Kashmiris struggle for plebiscite instead of issuing ambiguous statements.

Syed Ali Geelani made it clear that the people of Kashmir had not given sacrifices for perks and packages. Even if India lays gold on our roads it cant heal our wounds. India has been exploiting our natural resources for the last 63-years, he added.

The veteran Hurriyet leader warned India of dire consequences if the convict in a false case of parliament attack, Afzal Guru was hanged. There will be such a public uprising in Kashmir which India will not be able to control if Guru is hanged, he added. 

Tehreek-e-Hurriyat jammu kashmir


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## Rocketsingh

MarkTheTruth said:


> Syed Ali Gilani arrested in Srinagar
> 
> 
> 
> Srinagar, June 12:In occupied Kashmir, the authorities arrested veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Geelani in Srinagar and shifted him to Humhama police station on Saturday.
> 
> The move was made following the killing of an 11th class student, Tufail Ahmed Matoo, by Indian police. Tufail was killed while dozens other people were injured when the police resorted to brute force to break up peaceful demonstrators in Srinagar on Friday.
> 
> Earlier, Syed Ali Geelani addressing a gathering at Ompora in Budgam said that the US should support the Kashmiris right to self-determination if it was sincere to resolve the Kashmir dispute. The veteran Hurriyet leader, while reacting to the US Assistant Secretary of State, Robert Blacks statement, said, America should stress more on giving right to self-determination to Kashmiris than Indo-Pak dialogue.
> 
> He said that Kashmir was not a border dispute between Pakistan and India but it was an issue pertaining to the future of millions of Kashmiri people and the international community should support Kashmiris struggle for plebiscite instead of issuing ambiguous statements.
> 
> Syed Ali Geelani made it clear that the people of Kashmir had not given sacrifices for perks and packages. Even if India lays gold on our roads it cant heal our wounds. India has been exploiting our natural resources for the last 63-years, he added.
> 
> The veteran Hurriyet leader warned India of dire consequences if the convict in a false case of parliament attack, Afzal Guru was hanged. There will be such a public uprising in Kashmir which India will not be able to control if Guru is hanged, he added.
> 
> Tehreek-e-Hurriyat jammu kashmir



wtf he is talking abt afzal guru,parliament attack which is fake ,even guru accepted wat he had done.and this old guy is saying he is innocent.a lot of times video is shown on tv ,in which he is accepting the role.

pak people dont know still the families of the died soldiers come to mourn for those soldiers,and pray 4 his death sentence.
sooner or later he will be hanged.


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## Prometheus

*Hizbul militant surrenders*

Srinagar, June 12 (PTI) A Hizbul Mujahideen militant trained in Pakistan today surrendered in Kupwara district of north Kashmir.

Abdul Majid Bhat surrendered before the army in Kupwara, 100 kms from here, police said.

Bhat had received training in Pakistan, they said.fullstory

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## MarkTheTruth

Rocketsingh said:


> wtf he is talking abt afzal guru,parliament attack which is fake ,even guru accepted wat he had done.and this old guy is saying he is innocent.a lot of times video is shown on tv ,in which he is accepting the role.
> 
> pak people dont know still the families of the died soldiers come to mourn for those soldiers,and pray 4 his death sentence.
> sooner or later he will be hanged.



you know what? If I put your @ss below the litter with the prediction of not less than 100s... You would prefer to say what I shall say you to say 

This is what Mr. Gillani intend to say. And this "old guy" has lot of respect within the people of Kashmir as well, the people you claim are your citizen. So give some respect to your citizen by not calling him "old guy"


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## Fighter488

A bold initiative from ToI. The full page opinion peice / article appeared on Sunday 13-June-2010.

Fighter

*UNDER SEIGE​*

*In Iraq, there is 1 soldier for every 166 people. In Kashmir, there is 1 for every 20 *

*July will mark 20 years of the controversial Armed Forces Special Powers Act in J&K. The people are angry the Army is still there. Is it time to start pulling out? *






*Rajat Pandit* | TNN 

No Army likes to wage war against its own people. Worse, if the fight drags on 20 years. The 1.13-million strong Indian Army is no exception. It would jump at the chance to leave the Valley and return to barracks, but only if policy-makers delivered their end of the bargain. Is the time right for this? Militancy in Jammu and Kashmir is at its lowest ebb since it erupted in 1989-1990. But there are two hurdles. First, will Pakistan&#8217;s real power centre, its army, turn off the terror tap? Second, can the paramilitary forces and J&K police take over from the Army? On both counts, the answer seems to be &#8216;no&#8217;. 

&#8220;We are trapped in the &#8216;hold&#8217; part of the &#8216;shape, clear, hold and build&#8217; strategy,&#8221; says a lieutenant-general, with extensive experience in J&K, speaking on condition of anonymity. He adds gloomily, &#8220;We will be stuck there for the foreseeable future. With so much money being pumped in, vested interests have developed all around. A political solution, with economic development, is needed.&#8221; 

http://img23.imageshack.us/i/mapij.jpg/






It has been an arduous task for the Army to &#8216;shape, clear and hold&#8217; the internal security environment in J&K. Protracted counter-insurgency operations in J&K and the North-East have blunted its operational readiness for external enemies&#8221; and corroded its discipline and moral fabric. Last week&#8217;s suspension of a major and the removal of a colonel from command for an alleged fake encounter on April 30 is just the latest example of this. The Army has slowly moved away from using &#8220;kills&#8221; as the benchmark for evaluating a battalion&#8217;s performance for awards and citations, but the pressure to deliver results remains. 

Consider cold statistics. More than 1,500 cases of human rights violations have been filed against the Army in the last two decades. Granted that a majority of them &#8212; the Army puts the figure at 97&#37; &#8212; were found to be &#8220;fake or motivated&#8221; but what of the rest? The Army takes recourse to the iron-fisted Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) to refuse to hand the accused to civilian authorities. It says it has its own &#8220;internal mechanisms&#8221; to deal with &#8220;aberrations&#8221; under the Army Act, 1950. 

&#8220;We have punished 104 personnel, including 40 officers, in the cases found true. We have made human rights a top-priority in last five-six years. But we cannot allow soldiers battling terrorists, which cannot be equated with normal law and order duties, to get no legal protection and be left to civilian courts in the event of something going wrong. It will hit troop morale,&#8221; says a senior officer. 

General V K Singh, who took over as Army chief in April, has declared that &#8220;any dilution&#8221; in AFSPA will &#8220;impinge adversely on the manner in which armed forces operate&#8221; in counter-insurgency duties. Consequently, the Centre consistently refuses to give permission to the J&K government to prosecute soldiers accused of human rights violations. During 2007-2009, there were 23 such requests but the ministry of defence did not permit any one of them to go ahead. 

This does not, of course, detract from the Army&#8217;s success in controlling militancy in J&K. Militancy is not quite dead. Pakistan may be acting against the Taliban on account of US pressure but it has let the anti-India terror factory remain active. There are at least 32 terrorist training camps, with an estimated 2,200 militants, operational in Pakistan and ***. Unsurprisingly, the Army contends no one should rush to assume all is well in J&K. 

According to estimates, there are just about 500-600 hardcore terrorists &#8212; half of them of &#8220;foreign origin&#8221; &#8212; in J&K at present. They still pose a threat, but it is marked reduction on the numbers &#8212; more than 2,500 &#8212; bandied about in the 1990s. 

&#8220;With the CRPF (which has around 70,000 troops in J&K) and police forces still not really trained or equipped for the swift operations required, coupled with their poor leadership, any largescale de-induction of Army troops will only weaken the counter-insurgency grid,&#8221; says a Rashtriya Rifles officer. &#8220;Whenever the Army has been removed from an area the militants and their over-ground workers begin to dominate there.&#8221; 

Defence minister A K Antony also believes that the terrorist threat remains very real. &#8220;The quantum of troops deployed in J&K is continuously assessed and reviewed by the Army based on the changing threat perception,&#8221; he says. The Army has moved two mountain divisions of around 35,000 men from the state in the last few years but further reduction can only happen when conflict management turns to conflict resolution. 

*Life in the shadow of gun​*

*M Saleem Pandit* | TNN 

Srinagar: Till 1990, there were few guns in the Valley. But, soon enough, the situation changed. As the Kalashnikovs began to dominate the streets, Kashmir was flooded with uniformed men. In the last 20 years, a generation of Kashmiris has grown up with soldiers at every street corner; often, even in their living rooms. There are too many troops in Kashmir. There have been too many clashes between men with automatics and youth with stones. Many Kashmiris see the Army as one &#8220;of occupation&#8221;. 


Human rights activist Khurram Parvez says the police records 458 cases of pending civilian killings and rapes between 1990 and 2007 because the men in uniform cannot be prosecuted. &#8220;We want transparent and independent investigations into many encounters that took place in April-May 2010,&#8221; he says. 

Arshad Anderabi has spent 14 years fighting for justice for his dead brother Jaleel, a lawyer and prominent human rights activist. He alleges that Jaleel &#8220;was abducted by the major (Avtar Singh of the 103rd unit of the Territorial Army) on the airport road when he was driving home along with his wife. He was killed in cold blood and his body was dumped in the Jhelum&#8221;. The special investigation team that investigated Jaleel&#8217;s death found Major Singh responsible for the murder. But the major is now reportedly living in California and Jaleel&#8217;s family still waits for justice. 

Though the Indian army has been in the Valley since 1948, its presence was never as visible as after militancy began. K B Jandial, retired IAS officer and now a member of the state public service commission, says, &#8220;The army must put in place a system of checks and balances and rein in the troops who take the law into their own hands. This has diluted the forces&#8217; achievement of almost destroying terrorism. Irresponsible actions of low rung-officers will harm India&#8217;s credentials as a democratic and secular nation.&#8221; 

There seem to be far too many Kashmiris who believe the Indian army is a ruthless force. Javid Iqbal, a respected doctor, says there is a huge trust deficit between the people and the army. &#8220;During the second world war, Churchill would often say &#8216;Indian Army any day&#8217;. That was a real tribute to the discipline and combat effectiveness of the forces. However, I wonder whether this attribute still holds for the army given the recent complaints of human rights violation.&#8221; 

The police says that there have been 51 allegations of rape against Indian army men in the last six years. Such allegations are deeply damaging to the army&#8217;s image. In 1991, about 100 women, including minors, the elderly, pregnant and disabled, were allegedly raped by a 4th Rajputana Rifles unit in Kunan Poshpora, Kupwara. &#8220;I am afraid that army could never restore its image in Kashmir given their behaviour with civilians here,&#8221; says Qurat-ul-Ain, a social activist. 

Of late, the army has been working on damage control through its humanitarian work. Colonel J S Brar, the defence spokesman here, says the Army is trying to win hearts and minds. &#8220;Under our Sadbavana programme, we are trying to alleviate, medicate, rejuvenate and ultimately uplift the quality of life of civilian population ,&#8221; he says. But considering the quantum of allegations against the army, many of the locals would regard this as too little and too late. 




LAST WORD 


*An Act that defies the law? ​*


*Josy Joseph* | TNN 




Contrary to popular belief, India does not have an impressive record of ending insurgency. One result of this messy reality is that the draconian Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) exists in several parts of the country. It gives legal permission to the military to arrest or conduct a midnight search without a warrant on the basis of reasonable suspicion. 

Most statistical studies show that civil wars in the last century lasted a little over seven years on average. The shortest may have run for just a few days; the longest more than 30 years, according to trends in recent World Bank-funded studies. These findings were mostly based on the African experience, but the global measure of insurgencies isn&#8217;t very different. Civil wars that began before 1980 lasted 78 months or thereabouts, but those that started after 1980 had a longer lifespan of roughly 105 months. What of India&#8217;s record? It has been disturbingly poor. The Naga issue has been festering from before Independence, Kashmir since 1987, Manipur is on fire yet again and Assam hasn&#8217;t really been at peace for three decades. And Naxalism has risen from the ashes, with its deadly challenge to the state, unleashing a violence that devours more than a hundred lives a month. 

Punjab and Mizoram are the most prominent of India&#8217;s few successes in ending insurgency. But they are the exceptions. 

Even though the security forces, especially the military, have shown impressive ability in containing insurgency, the political leadership generally lets the status quo prevail rather than transforming the containment into permanent peace. This lack of political capability is now forcing the army to resist major troop reduction in Kashmir, despite a drop in violence. The Union home ministry had suggested the army move some of its Rashtriya Rifles battalions from J&K to Naxaliteridden areas, but the Army, as a senior officer explains, has &#8220;contained the violence in Kashmir, and our security grid is working very effectively. What guarantee is there that permanent peace would be achieved in Kashmir, and that we won&#8217;t need to go back to manage a messed up situation?&#8221; 

Many within the security establishment believe New Delhi has failed to grasp the opportunity to create a lasting peace in Kashmir. As a result, the people of J&K are soon to complete two decades under AFSPA&#8217;s menacing shadow. In Nagaland, the act has been in existence since 1958, when it was first enacted by Parliament to contain Naga dissidence. It exists in the entire state of Assam since 1980, in all of Manipur outside Imphal municipal limits, in the hill districts of Tripura, in Arunachal Pradesh&#8217;s Tirap and Changlang districts and in a 20-km belt bordering Assam, and along another 20-KM belt of Meghalaya bordering Assam. 

Army officers insist that the legal protection offered by AFSPA is crucial to their success and is a prerequisite for anti-Naxal operational deployment. &#8220;It is necessary not to treat soldiers as mere policemen. The legal protection empowers them to act with far better determination. The results are there to be seen,&#8221; says a senior army officer. 

Imposition of AFSPA is invariably accompanied by a huge surge of military and paramilitary forces. Both reflect the state&#8217;s determination to facilitate the military containment of insurgency. Estimates vary, but the army&#8217;s Jammu-based 16 corps was, at one time, bigger than the British army. This, despite there being two other corps in the state as well. There are no specific numbers available, but around 5,00,000 security personnel are believed to be deployed in J&K, which has a population of just over one crore. That is a skewed security personnel to civilian population ratio and it gets worse in the Kashmir Valley. 

But the Indian state&#8217;s inability to grab the admittedly slim opportunities for peace is not limited to J&K. Forgotten battles are raging across the northeast. As a result, generations have grown up with a distorted sense of liberty and democracy in several states. To them, India is an illiberal democracy, defined by the military man&#8217;s right to open fire on crowds, search houses and individuals and control people&#8217;s daily lives using the authority that comes from the law of the land, aka the Armed Forces Special Powers Act. 




*Women can win the war on war ​*


*Madhu Kishwar *




Amid reports that the Americans are using female marines in Afghanistan to gain access to local women and thereby swing the population to their side, there are suggestions that India could do the same in Kashmir. But, recruiting a few women to control human rights abuses in Kashmir would be like applying band-aid to a deeply-infected wound. Kashmir requires a political solution, not a military one. Band-aid solutions evoke disdain rather than inspire confidence. 

Human rights are violated when those in positions of power feel they can get away with murder. The Indian Army is highly professional. However, by enacting draconian laws such as the Armed Forces Special Powers Act that give blanket immunity, their professionalism is compromised. They lead to fake encounter killings as a means to career advancement. In such a situation putting a few women soldiers on the streets is not likely to win over many hearts in Kashmir. 

The image and conduct of our police has not improved with the recruitment of a handful of women because the overall mandate of the police as an institution is firmly set in the colonial mould. The culture of these organizations places a premium on macho qualities. Women are numerically insignificant and far removed from leadership positions. Therefore, instead of feminizing the culture of these institutions, women tend to emulate men as a survival strategy. Many women who work in the forces in junior positions have experienced sexual abuse and harassment without effective redress. Those who are unable to defend their own dignity are not likely to be able to sensitize the overall orientation of the Army. 

However old fashioned it may sound, I still firmly believe in Mahatma Gandhi&#8217;s vision that in the war against war women must lead &#8212; they must teach the art of peace to a warring world. Gandhi&#8217;s success lay in convincing large sections of India that societies become civilized only when men imbibe some of positive feminine qualities, such as nurturing and revulsion towards violence. 
At present, the Army is overstretched and fatigued as it battles the civilian population for whom the presence of the armed forces is itself an annoying reminder of their &#8220;subjugation&#8221;. Our officers are becoming increasingly resentful at being made to pay for the follies and mischief of politicians. Their role must be limited to defending the borders and ensuring that terrorists from neighbouring countries don&#8217;t sneak into India. 

Knowledgeable people within the government admit that, as in Punjab, the terrorist threat in Kashmir can be best countered by a well-trained, highly-motivated, self-respecting and accountable J&K police. This can happen only if the police are freed from political interference. The Centre should join hands with the state government and use J&K as a laboratory for far-reaching police reforms. If 35 to 40% of this reformed police service comprised women, their presence would further humanize the law and order machinery. When the citizens of the state feel they are trusted and responsible for maintaining internal security, they are bound to rise to the occasion because they have the highest stake in peace. 

Kashmiri society has been brutalized due to the devious games of successive political leaders in legitimizing the gun culture. However, when in 2002 Mufti Mohammad Sayeed emerged in his new PDP avatar with the slogan: &#8220;Na bandook se, na goli se, Baat banegi boli se&#8221;, Kashmiris, young and old, responded with enthusiasm. This is evident in the dramatic rise in voter turnout since PDP joined the electoral fray. The romance with the Pakistani militants&#8217; gun is all but over. The Kashmir problem requires that the Central Government also act with the conviction that na banddok se na goli se, baat banegi boli se. 

Cosmetic changes to the Army&#8217;s image cannot be a substitute for determined efforts to find a political solution acceptable to diverse sections of Kashmiri society. People will have faith in &#8220;boli&#8221; only when it is backed by a responsive polity and a government that has the ability to deliver what it promises. 

*Madhu Kishwar* is editor of Manushi

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## Ruag

So... let me get this right...

Pakistani agencies are forcing local Kashmiri people to serve as guides for the anti-India mujahideen forces and those local Kashmiris who refuse to follow their orders are abducted?!

And this article clearly points out that because of Pakistan's repeated attempts to infiltrate militants into Indian Kashmir, people in Neelam Valley are suffering the most. Just look at the people of Athmuqam town protesting against militant activity.

And this is the same Pakistan which claims to be fighting for the "cause of Kashmir".


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## EjazR

*Petition seeking setting-aside of GB Order, 2009 filed in SC*

ISLAMABAD, (SANA): A petition under article 184 (3) of the Constitution has been filed in the Supreme Court for setting aside Gilgit-Baltistan (Empowerment & Self-Governance) Order, 2009.

Shaukat Aziz Siddique, the counsel for petitioner Mir Tariq Mehmood, besides raising several questions and objections over above order held adopted a stance that area of Gilgit-Baltistan (Northern Area) is part of disputed territory like AJ & K and Indian held Kashmir.

By declaring and treating Gilgit & Baltistan as a province of Pakistan would exclude this area of 100% Muslims population from the disputed territory and population of this area shall be deprived to take part in the plebiscite to be held under the resolution No. 13/1948 passed by the United Nations, Siddique argued.

He further said that any area that does not come within the meaning of territory as envisaged under Article 1 (2) (d) of the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan cannot be declared and administered as territory of Pakistan.

He prayed that the Order, 2009 and all the steps taken in pursuance of the same including appointment of Dr. Shama Khalid, Governor Gilgit Baltistan, Syed Mehdi Shah, Chief Minister Gilgit Baltistan, Justice (R) Muhammad Nawaz Abbasi, Chief Justice, are illegal, unlawful, unprecedented, against all norms of justice, mandate of the constitution, dictums of the superior courts of the country, international law resolution of United Nation, political, moral and consistent stand of Pakistani nation and residents of the area, void ab initio, ineffective upon the rights of the petitioner and other residents, bad law which is liable to be set-aside.

Giving brief facts about the area, senior advocate of the Supreme Court Shaukat Aziz Siddique said that it is an admitted fact in the historical perspective that northern areas now termed as Gilgit Baltistan (herein after referred to as the area) was neither part of India nor any other country at the time of independence of Pakistan from British rule.

He added in the year 1947, the status of this area, Azad Kashmir and Indian Held Kashmir was to be determined in accordance with the aspirations of the local population.

It was move of the Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Lal Nehru himself to present the matter before United Nations and it was resolved through resolution No. 13/1948 (herein after called as the resolution) by the United Nations that a plebiscite shall be held in these areas under the auspices of United Nations through which population of these areas was to decide about their future, therefore, any step taken in violation of this longstanding and historical stance is detrimental to the Kashmir cause, the petition recalled.

It is relevant to mention here that Gilgit and Baltistan, known as Northern Areas, presently consist of 7 districts, a population approaching 1.5 million, an area of approximately 28000 sq. miles and shares borders with Pakistan, China, Afghanistan and India. The government of Pakistan took administrative control of the area as back as 1949.


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## RollingStones

dabong1 said:


> The "difference" is that the people of AJK dont mind the army being around ,while the people in IOK do mind the army being around......you dont get large groups of paramilitary-military people roaming the streets with guns in AJK trying to suppress the people.
> Likewise the people support the freedom fighters and after all it about what the people want.



I actually ended up reading a bit on the geographic positions of these two areas of Kashmir and found that the Pakistani contention that they can cause India a lot of damage with itself taking very little damage to be very untrue. My study of the Line of Control suggests that Indian Army can shell and devastate the whole of Neelum valley in Pakistan overnight, if it so wishes (and my research says that they have done it in the past). Apparently Pakistan uses Neelum Valley as the launching pad for cross border militants or terrorists or whatever because of the rough terrain and the Indian Army has actually shelled whole towns in this valley. I am not sure how many Pakistanis know this but certain towns in the Neelum valley have been completely devastated by the IA shelling, so much so that the valley's people are dead against helping out Pakistan's intelligence agencies from using their folks as cannon fodder. This research was news to me as having read the arguments here, I thought that IA had no leverage over launching pads in Pakistani part of Kashmir. That turned out to be grossly untrue.

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## humblehobbes

^^ they will want source and all that.. Better hurry n provide one soon


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## blueoval79

Only 500 militants active in Kashmir: State police chief

Only about 500 insurgents, about 40 percent of them foreign militants, are still active in Jammu and Kashmir and *peace is not far *from the troubled state with a steep drop in violence in the last three years, says state police chief Kuldeep Khoda.

There are about 500 militants presently active in Jammu and Kashmir and *their number has come down from 700-800 last year and around 1,000 in 2008*, Khoda told IANS in Delhi where he had come for an official function.

The police chief said *40 percent of these militants were foreigners, mostly from Pakistan and Pakistan-administered Kashmir*.

He said the Hizbul Mujahideen and the Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) - the terror outfits that have bases in Pakistan - were active in the state.

The Hizbul Mujahideeen is more in a supportive role to the LeT but it depends on the plans conceived across (the border), he said.

Khoda said the overall security scenario in Jammu and Kashmir was improving and there was a drop in violence in the last three years.

*There was a 20 percent drop in violence in 2007 which improved to 28 percent in 2008 and 30 percent in 2009,* he said.

The last year, Khoda added, also saw the lowest number of civilian deaths in militancy-related incidents.

According to official data, a little less than 500 terror incidents were reported in 2009 in which 239 militants, 71 civilians and 79 security personnel were killed. In 2008, 339 militants, 91 civilians and 85 security personnel were killed in 708 militancy incidents.

*We are on the right course*, Khoda said, hoping the violence will come down further in the future.

However, he maintained that there was no let-up in incursion attempts by militants from across the border with security forces.

Infiltration is going on though not to the extent as it was last year. Going by the (infiltration) bids made, there is no change in attitude of handlers across the border who want to push in infiltrators, he said.

According to the police chief, security forces had been able to curb militant incursion mainly due to better border management.

Khoda said Pakistan continued to support militant activities in Jammu and Kashmir. Terrorists are coming or attempts are being made to infiltrate and they are getting training, equipment, funding Militants trying to cross over do not face obstructions from Pakistani security forces but were, instead, provided covering fire.

All this points to the direct role (of the Pakistan establishment), he said, adding that Pakistan was not adhering to its commitment of not allowing its soil to be used for anti-India activities.

They do not adhere to it. Nothing is visible on the ground.

Only 500 militants active in Kashmir: State police chief

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## M8R



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## EjazR

*Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - Bla stone throwers call truce; Police welcomes*

Baramulla, June 11: Angry over the remark of Hurriyat Conference that they had identified some stone throwers in Baramulla who were backed by government agencies, stone throwers in Baramulla town Friday decided to shun stone pelting.

The stone throwers called upon media persons at old bridge in Baramulla town on Friday and told them that they would not indulge in stone pelting nor follow any programme of the Hurriyat Conference.

The Hurriyat has disgraced us with such remarks. Our innocent youth are detained by police and no one speaks for them, the stone pelters said.

They said, earlier Hurriyat backed stone pelting and termed it as only tool of resistance. Now they ridicule it for reasons only known to them.

They said in future they would boycott programmes of Hurriyat Conference.

However, they said they would continue their resistance until police set arrested youth free.

According to them, police had arrested over a dozen youth during past few days and charged them for pelting stones.

Meanwhile, speaking to Rising Kashmir, Senior Superintendent Police (SSP) Baramulla Sheikh Mahmood assured full cooperation to the youth who decided to shun the path of stone pelting.

He said police would provide full legal support to all of them as they had realised what was right and what was wrong.

I ensure full legal support to them and even the condition they have set of freeing the arrested youth. I will try my best to release the detained youth held under Public Safety Act, the SSP said.

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## PracticalGuy

I guess the money for the stones must have dried up...and hey its business..no body does it for free...


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## foxbat

*Looks like 499 left *

Militant killed in encounter in north Kashmir - Yahoo! India News

Wed, Jun 16 07:26 PM
Srinagar, June 16 (PTI) A militant was killed in an encounter with security forces in Kupwara district of north Kashmir, police said today. The gun battle took place yesterday at Gujjar Pati Zaloora area near Daroosas forest, 120 kms from here, they said, adding a jawan was also injured.

One AK 47 rifle, four magazine, 119 rounds, a wireless set, a hand grenade, a compas, three mobile phones besides some clothing items and medicines were recovered from the spot, police said.


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## sipraomer

MilesTogo said:


> I think time is right to free Kashmiris and not just Kashmiris but all the Muslims in India. Indians should seriously start thinking about a second partition and free all muslims.



Who will do it? If it were ever to be done, why was it not done in the past? Does anyone like to do partition to his country just like that? The Hindus couldn't give separate representation to the Muslims in the parliament. How can they give a separate state to the Muslims? If Nehru would have listened Jinnah, all this chaos wouldn't happen from the start altogether. India would have been the biggest country, with largest population, richest resources and would have been a Super power exceeding the Americans and Chineese in all matters.

The problem can only be solved when a third party, (revolutionary party) comes in power and kills all politicians of India, Pakistan and BanglaDesh.


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## humblehobbes

Is the concern for Kashmir or Kashmiri people or Kashmiri Muslims? If its for Kashmiri Muslims, you can open the flood gates, like how the US did with Cuba in the eighties!? what say yo!? Let the Harassing Indian Army be here in Kashmir. Take the Kashmiri Muslims! 

I am not against other Indian muslims here. But I fail to understand where the sympathies of the Pakistanis are! Is it with the Kashmiris? If so, why isnt there an iota of respect for Kashmiri Pundits or for the land ceded to China? Or is it for the Muslim Brethren? If so why isnt there even a hint of mewing for the Chinese Uighurs! 

If the issue is for the disputed Land of Kashmir, stop the rhetoric of being the Saviours of Kashmiri Muslims. If the issue is supposedly for the Muslim brothers only in disputed areas, where the vested interest is with the land, make the point clear that this a policy of fomenting trouble by stirring religious sentiments in a disputed area so as to make the other party of the dispute uncomfortable.

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## Awesome

humblehobbes said:


> Is the concern for Kashmir or Kashmiri people or Kashmiri Muslims? If its for Kashmiri Muslims, you can open the flood gates, like how the US did with Cuba in the eighties!? what say yo!? Let the Harassing Indian Army be here in Kashmir. Take the Kashmiri Muslims!
> 
> I am not against other Indian muslims here. But I fail to understand where the sympathies of the Pakistanis are! Is it with the Kashmiris? If so, why isnt there an iota of respect for Kashmiri Pundits or for the land ceded to China? Or is it for the Muslim Brethren? If so why isnt there even a hint of mewing for the Chinese Uighurs!
> 
> If the issue is for the disputed Land of Kashmir, stop the rhetoric of being the Saviours of Kashmiri Muslims. If the issue is supposedly for the Muslim brothers only in disputed areas, where the vested interest is with the land, make the point clear that this a policy of fomenting trouble by stirring religious sentiments in a disputed area so as to make the other party of the dispute uncomfortable.


While I'm of the argument that Pakistan's doors should remain open to all Indian minorities. 

However due to the disputed nature of Kashmir, it would serve India by expelling out Kashmiris. Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris, Pakistan wants to grant the Kashmiris their right to self-determination through a UN administered plebiscite. 

From then on, whatever they choose, thats fine with us.


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## EjazR

*Muslims greet Kashmir&#039;s Hindus at temple festival | TwoCircles.net*

By IANS,

Srinagar : Thousands of Kashmiri Hindus from across the country Saturday thronged the Khirbhawani temple in north Kashmir's Ganderbal district for an annual festival. Local Muslims greeted them with sweets as part of a centuries' old practice in the state where the two religions have traditionally lived in harmony.

The temple in Tullamulla village, about 25 km from here, is dedicated to Ragnya Devi, one of the many incarnations of Goddess Durga.

Muslims lined up outside the temple Saturday with 'kheer' (a sweet dish made of milk) in earthen pots for their Hindu brethren.

Legend has it that Lord Rama worshipped Ragnya during his entire 14-year exile. When this ended, Lord Rama asked Hanuman to relocate the shrine of the goddess. Hanuman relocated it to Shadipora in Kashmir. But the deity appeared in a local priest's dream asking him to relocate the shrine at its present location.

Devotees of all ages throng the shrine each year and engage in prayers and meditation to seek the blessings of the deity.

The spring water inside the temple complex bears special significance as it is believed that the colour of water on the festival day foretells the year's future for the state.

"The colour of the spring water is milky white which foretells a prosperous year for the state," said Radhakrishan Bhan, 56, who came here all the way from Pune.

After majority of the Hindus migrated out of the state in the 1990s in the wake of separatist violence here, hundreds of them have been reaching here each year this day from different parts of the country.

"We look forward to the time when we can return back to our roots in Kashmir," said Shiban Krishen, 47, who came from the Jammu to pray at the temple.

Tight security arrangement was put in place in and around the temple.

State Deputy Chief Minister Tara Chand had also visited the temple Friday to take stock of the arrangements made for the devotees.

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## garibnawaz

'Will agitate if Amarnath yatra is extended': Rediff.com India News

The hard-line separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani [ Images ] on Friday threatened agitation 'in case the annual Amarnath yatra [ Images ] is not restricted to the original 15 day schedule.'
Addressing a Friday congregation before staging a sit-in along with his supporters in the heart of summer capital Srinagar [ Images ], Geelani said, "We are not against the yatra. But, the extended duration of the yatra and its impact on our environment and ecology forces me to issue this call."

Citing the examples of Uttarakhand [ Images ], Geelani said that 'the government of Jammu and Kashmir [ Images ] should emulate the example of that state and restrict the yatra to its original period of only 15 days to minimise ecological and environmental damages to the area.'

The annual yatra begins on July 1 this year and already thousands have registered themselves for this year's pilgrimage.

Geelani also demanded the immediate release of all the youth arrested by the police on charges of stone pelting by the coming Monday, failing which he threatened mass agitation.

He also advised the parents of the arrested youth not to pay bribes to anyone for their release. "In the ongoing freedom struggle, it is our duty to fight for the release of all the arrested youth," he said.

GB


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## Trichy

This the reality any ware in India, but some babus and leaders will tempet them and make some roit and kill several, first find them and kill on street corners


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## PracticalGuy

EjazR said:


> *Muslims greet Kashmir's Hindus at temple festival | TwoCircles.net*
> 
> By IANS,
> 
> Srinagar : Thousands of Kashmiri Hindus from across the country Saturday thronged the Khirbhawani temple in north Kashmir's Ganderbal district for an annual festival. Local Muslims greeted them with sweets as part of a centuries' old practice in the state where the two religions have traditionally lived in harmony.
> 
> The temple in Tullamulla village, about 25 km from here, is dedicated to Ragnya Devi, one of the many incarnations of Goddess Durga.
> 
> Muslims lined up outside the temple Saturday with 'kheer' (a sweet dish made of milk) in earthen pots for their Hindu brethren.
> 
> Legend has it that Lord Rama worshipped Ragnya during his entire 14-year exile. When this ended, Lord Rama asked Hanuman to relocate the shrine of the goddess. Hanuman relocated it to Shadipora in Kashmir. But the deity appeared in a local priest's dream asking him to relocate the shrine at its present location.
> 
> Devotees of all ages throng the shrine each year and engage in prayers and meditation to seek the blessings of the deity.
> 
> The spring water inside the temple complex bears special significance as it is believed that the colour of water on the festival day foretells the year's future for the state.
> 
> "The colour of the spring water is milky white which foretells a prosperous year for the state," said Radhakrishan Bhan, 56, who came here all the way from Pune.
> 
> After majority of the Hindus migrated out of the state in the 1990s in the wake of separatist violence here, hundreds of them have been reaching here each year this day from different parts of the country.
> 
> "We look forward to the time when we can return back to our roots in Kashmir," said Shiban Krishen, 47, who came from the Jammu to pray at the temple.
> 
> Tight security arrangement was put in place in and around the temple.
> 
> State Deputy Chief Minister Tara Chand had also visited the temple Friday to take stock of the arrangements made for the devotees.



Finally Kashmir is limping back to its old self once again..


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## chachachoudhary

After the maoists, I think govt should deal with these separatist bastards with full force. They have been treated too leniently so far and now its time for some spanking.


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## PracticalGuy

chachachoudhary said:


> After the maoists, I think govt should deal with these separatist bastards with full force. They have been treated too leniently so far and now its time for some spanking.



I think in this matter GOI is doing a fair job in ignoring these people.. and I think this helped a lot in the valley in recent times.. we were successful in breaking up the Hurriyat into two factions..one moderate and other the usual hurriyat.. the only one left is the geelani who is almost on his death bed..it's better to ignore him for some more time rather than adding fuel to the fire... as you know this issue has a religious tone and if GOI tries to be hard on them.. it might snowball into a huge mayhem on the religious lines and we would end up giving new life to these about to die separatists..


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## notsuperstitious

garibnawaz said:


> 'Will agitate if Amarnath yatra is extended': Rediff.com India News
> 
> The hard-line separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani [ Images ] on Friday threatened agitation 'in case the annual Amarnath yatra [ Images ] is not restricted to the original 15 day schedule.'
> Addressing a Friday congregation before staging a sit-in along with his supporters in the heart of summer capital Srinagar [ Images ], Geelani said, "We are not against the yatra. But, the extended duration of the yatra and its impact on our environment and ecology forces me to issue this call."
> 
> 
> GB



The paid humanitarian Geelani is now an environmentalist too!!! Excellent!

Huanitarian, human rights advocate, social worker running a charity and now an environmentalist, all hail this wonderful human being


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## chachachoudhary

PracticalGuy said:


> I think in this matter GOI is doing a fair job in ignoring these people.. and I think this helped a lot in the valley in recent times.. we were successful in breaking up the Hurriyat into two factions..one moderate and other the usual hurriyat.. the only one left is the geelani who is almost on his death bed..it's better to ignore him for some more time rather than adding fuel to the fire... as you know this issue has a religious tone and if GOI tries to be hard on them.. it might snowball into a huge mayhem on the religious lines and we would end up giving new life to these about to die separatists..



I disagree. We should not forget that some elements in these separatist organizations actually function as sleeper cells for terrorists and ignoring them is nothing but procrastination.

Morever, the constant allegations of these separatists is having a very negative effect on the morale of security forces who are getting framed in numerous human rights cases.

All terrorists claim to represent some or the other religions and if govt of the day decide to be soft because of the so called "religious angle", then things will only get worse.


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## Justin Joseph

fateh71 said:


> The paid humanitarian Geelani is now an environmentalist too!!! Excellent!
> 
> Huanitarian, human rights advocate, social worker running a charity and now an environmentalist, all hail this wonderful human being



He's a dirty triter nothing else.


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## PracticalGuy

chachachoudhary said:


> I disagree. We should not forget that some elements in these separatist organizations actually function as sleeper cells for terrorists and ignoring them is nothing but procrastination.
> 
> Morever, the constant allegations of these separatists is having a very negative effect on the morale of security forces who are getting framed in numerous human rights cases.
> 
> All terrorists claim to represent some or the other religions and if govt of the day decide to be soft because of the so called "religious angle", then things will only get worse.



you are combining two things here.. terrorists are different from these geelani kind of folks who are in public life.. and thats what my point was.. people who are in public life tend to do more danger than the terrorists when things are not handled properly by the govt. ..regarding terrorists..our security forces are doing commendable job and are having a ball now a days if u see the number of terrorists killed recently...


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## SpArK

*Good gesture by Muslims towards Hindus. Hope normalcy prevails and the state march towards prosperity and peace.
*


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## GUNNER

*One dead as troops fire at violent Kashmir protest*

(AFP) 

SRINAGAR, India  One demonstrator was killed and five injured Sunday in Kashmir when Indian troops fired bullets to disperse violent protests over the death of a Muslim youth, police and witnesses said.

Rafiq Bangroo died on Saturday, days after being injured in the Kashmiri summer capital Srinagar in what his family allege was a beating by paramilitary forces.

Police say they are investigating his death.

Enraged by Bangroo's death -- the second in less than ten days of a civilian allegedly at the hands of security forces -- hundreds of Kashmiris took to the streets on Sunday chanting: "We will spill blood for blood."

Protesters attacked a paramilitary bunker, prompting the soldiers to open fire that left one person dead, police said.

"The firing incident has brought more people out on the streets and they are fighting with police and paramilitary forces," resident Tanveer Ahmed told AFP by telephone from downtown Srinagar.

Srinagar was already tense after the death of a teenager student on June 11 during clashes between police and anti-India demonstrators.

His family said he was hit by a teargas shell and that he was not part of the demonstration.

The Muslim-majority region is in the grip of a 20-year insurgency against rule from New Delhi. The unrest has left more than 47,000 people dead by the official count.


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## Agnostic_Indian

Indian and pakistani army are the same in Atrocities so no point in trolling.you take care of your problems fist and so do we.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Nice, happy festival. Looks like the people of Kashmir have unity, even after years of tyrannical rule which favoured one religion over the other. Hindus, Muslims, Buddhist's are all Kashmiris. 

Also, to members calling for the heads of seperatists, remember Kashmir is a disputed region, where war crimes have been done. The people have a right to self determination. Instead of calling for they're heads, you should support them to gain a plebliscite in peaceful ways.


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## SpArK

*Muslims greet Kashmir's Hindus at temple festival*


Srinagar : Thousands of Kashmiri Hindus from across the country Saturday thronged the Khirbhawani temple in north Kashmir's Ganderbal district for an annual festival. Local Muslims greeted them with sweets as part of a centuries' old practice in the state where the two religions have traditionally lived in harmony.

The temple in Tullamulla village, about 25 km from here, is dedicated to Ragnya Devi, one of the many incarnations of Goddess Durga.


_Kheer Bhawani festival in Srinagar, photo by Jammu News Agency_





Muslims lined up outside the temple Saturday with 'kheer' (a sweet dish made of milk) in earthen pots for their Hindu brethren.

Legend has it that Lord Rama worshipped Ragnya during his entire 14-year exile. When this ended, Lord Rama asked Hanuman to relocate the shrine of the goddess. Hanuman relocated it to Shadipora in Kashmir. But the deity appeared in a local priest's dream asking him to relocate the shrine at its present location.

Devotees of all ages throng the shrine each year and engage in prayers and meditation to seek the blessings of the deity.

The spring water inside the temple complex bears special significance as it is believed that the colour of water on the festival day foretells the year's future for the state.

"The colour of the spring water is milky white which foretells a prosperous year for the state," said Radhakrishan Bhan, 56, who came here all the way from Pune.

After majority of the Hindus migrated out of the state in the 1990s in the wake of separatist violence here, hundreds of them have been reaching here each year this day from different parts of the country.

"We look forward to the time when we can return back to our roots in Kashmir," said Shiban Krishen, 47, who came from the Jammu to pray at the temple.

Tight security arrangement was put in place in and around the temple.

State Deputy Chief Minister Tara Chand had also visited the temple Friday to take stock of the arrangements made for the devotees.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

GUNNER said:


> *One dead as troops fire at violent Kashmir protest*
> 
> 
> SRINAGAR, India  One demonstrator was killed and five injured Sunday in Kashmir when Indian troops fired bullets to disperse violent protests over the death of a Muslim youth, police and witnesses said.
> 
> Rafiq Bangroo died on Saturday, days after being injured in the Kashmiri summer capital Srinagar in what his family allege was a beating by paramilitary forces.
> 
> Police say they are investigating his death.
> 
> Enraged by Bangroo's death -- the second in less than ten days of a civilian allegedly at the hands of security forces -- hundreds of Kashmiris took to the streets on Sunday chanting: "We will spill blood for blood."
> 
> Protesters attacked a paramilitary bunker, prompting the soldiers to open fire that left one person dead, police said.
> 
> "The firing incident has brought more people out on the streets and they are fighting with police and paramilitary forces," resident Tanveer Ahmed told AFP by telephone from downtown Srinagar.
> 
> Srinagar was already tense after the death of a teenager student on June 11 during clashes between police and anti-India demonstrators.
> 
> His family said he was hit by a teargas shell and that he was not part of the demonstration.
> 
> The Muslim-majority region is in the grip of a 20-year insurgency against rule from New Delhi. The unrest has left more than 47,000 people dead by the official count.




&#1575;&#1606;&#1617;&#1575; &#1604;&#1604;&#1729; &#1608; &#1575;&#1606;&#1617;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1740;&#1729; &#1585;&#1575;&#1580;&#1593;&#1608;&#1606;


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## Lankan Ranger

*Army colonel killed in Kashmir encounter*

A senior army officer has been killed in a separatist guerrilla ambush in Jammu and Kashmir's Kupwara district, police said on Wednesday. 

Colonel Neeraj Sood, commanding officer of 18 Rashtriya Rifles (RR), was on Tuesday critically injured in a gunfight with militants in Saiwan village in Lolab Valley, about 105 km from here. 

"Colonel Neeraj was critically wounded in the militant attack. He was immediately rushed to a hospital in Kupwara. However, he succumbed to his injuries in the hospital late on Tuesday night," a senior police officer said. 

"Reinforcements have been rushed to the area. Searches in the area continue," he added. 

Army colonel killed in Kashmir encounter - India - The Times of India

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## SpArK

Rest In Peace the brave officer.


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## karan.1970

RIP for the brave officer.. Expect a big counter blow in next couple of days..


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## PracticalGuy

RIP...

Jai Hind!


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## Xeric

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...y-officer-in-kashmir-encounter_100384730.html

*Terrorists kill senior Army officer in Kashmir encounter*
June 23rd, 2010 - 5:28 pm ICT by ANI

Srinagar, June 23 (ANI): A senior army officer was killed in an encounter with terrorist in North Kashmir late on Tuesday night.

According to the Army sources, terrorists gunned down Colonel Neeraj Sood of the Rashtriya Rifles (RR).

The encounter took place in the dense forests of the Lolab Valley in North Kashmir.

The encounter was still going on when reports last came in.

The Army said that additional forces have been rushed to the spot.

The dead Colonel&#8217;s body is being brought to the Capital. (ANI)


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## EjazR

*100,000 Brahmin Hindus return to the land of the Pandits - The National Newspaper*

TULLA MULLA // Two decades after fleeing Kashmir, thousands of Brahmin Hindus, known as Pandits, returned to their ancestral homeland yesterday to pray at a sacred shrine, the biggest congregation of Pandits since their exodus.

Amid tight security, around 100,000 Pandits came from across India to gather in Tulla Mulla, 27km east of Srinagar, at the historic Khirbhawani temple to seek blessings from the goddess Ragnya Devi.

&#8220;I don&#8217;t want to go back [to heartland India]. I want to die here,&#8221; said Ishri Bhatt, 65, a widow who fled the Muslim-majority valley in 1989 along with an estimated 200,000 Pandits when a insurgency against Indian rule broke out.

They re-settled in the Hindu-dominated southern part of the state, Jammu, and other parts of India.

But the Pandits have recently begun to return. An estimated 4,000 families have moved back to the territory, split between India and Pakistan but claimed by both in its entirety, since 2004 when relations between the nuclear-armed rivals began to thaw. The intensity of militant violence in Kashmir has also decreased since then.

Jawaharlal Langar, 72, a retired librarian at Kashmir University, now lives in New Delhi but is originally from Srinagar&#8217;s Shivpora district. He was one of the Pandits returning for the first time. Mr Langar said: &#8220;Why and how did we have to leave? I don&#8217;t want to go into those details because that would only reopen old wounds. I took a flight from Delhi and on landing in Srinagar found things have changed for the better and the atmosphere is quite cordial.&#8221;

Violence, however is still common enough to keep the vast majority of Pandits from moving back. Street battles between Indian security forces and stone-throwing protesters are a daily occurrence. Human rights abuses against civilians are also commonplace, according to rights groups. Tens of thousands have died.

Most of the visiting Pandits said they prayed for the return of peace so that they can come back to their homes. Prince Bhatt, 41, Ishri Bhatt&#8217;s son, said: &#8220;I&#8217;m quite happy over the way we were greeted by the people living in the temple vicinity and other Muslims. All that is needed now is some bold initiatives by the government and the politicians.&#8221;

The Kashmir Chief Minister, Omar Abdullah, who visited the temple yesterday, said new government initiatives would encourage Pandits to return. They include reservations in government jobs.

Many of the Pandit families are well-settled in their new lives, making it difficult to return to an uncertain situation.

Mr Langar, sitting near the stream in the shade of poplars, willows and walnut trees, said: &#8220;I wish [to return] but I can&#8217;t. My children and grandchildren are settled outside the Valley of Kashmir and it would be naive to seek to resettle here when your beloved ones are not around.&#8221;

But the desire to return remains strong even among the post-migration generation, some of whom have never been to the valley. Rajat Hangloo, 13, said: &#8220;There is no better place to live than our own Kashmir.&#8221; Speaking in Kashmiri, Rajat added: &#8220;It is cool here and too hot there [in Jammu]. Yes, I want to spend the rest of my life here.&#8221;

Before the eruption of violence, Pandits and Muslims lived in relative harmony sharing a unique Kashmiri culture. At the Khirbhawani temple yesterday, Muslims greeted the pilgrims with open arms, offering them fruit and drinks and even hosting some in their homes. Habla Begum, a Muslim resident of Tulla Mulla, felt &#8220;quite contented&#8221; while pouring ghee into the tiny earthen lamp pots that are lit by the Hindu devotees as part of their prayers.

Abdul Aziz Shah, 64, a resident of neighbouring Safa Pora township, said, &#8220;Militancy was a curse. We&#8217;ve paid a heavy price and continue to suffer. One of the pitfalls was the flight of our Pandit brethren. They must come back.&#8221; Mr Shah said his family has sold sweets, flower petals and other items to Hindu pilgrims for seven generations.

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## dabong1

RollingStones said:


> I actually ended up reading a bit on the geographic positions of these two areas of Kashmir and found that the Pakistani contention that they can cause India a lot of damage with itself taking very little damage to be very untrue. My study of the Line of Control suggests that Indian Army can shell and devastate the whole of Neelum valley in Pakistan overnight, if it so wishes (and my research says that they have done it in the past). Apparently Pakistan uses Neelum Valley as the launching pad for cross border militants or terrorists or whatever because of the rough terrain and the Indian Army has actually shelled whole towns in this valley. I am not sure how many Pakistanis know this but certain towns in the Neelum valley have been completely devastated by the IA shelling, so much so that the valley's people are dead against helping out Pakistan's intelligence agencies from using their folks as cannon fodder. This research was news to me as having read the arguments here, I thought that IA had no leverage over launching pads in Pakistani part of Kashmir. That turned out to be grossly untrue.



The indian army can destroy every village along the LOC on the pakistani side if they want but it serves no purpose but only getting the local population to turn against the attacker in the long run.......when someones house is blown up they ask who destroyed it.
I can give you first hand accounts of whole villages living under indian sniper-motor range and homes being pot marked with bullet fire but it serves no purpose,the freedom fighters are in bunkers and thee infrastructure is not touched.
You could send special forces which the indians have done in the past but with the current situation the pakistani army capturing "state backed terrorist" would be a diplomatic-media disaster for the indians.


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## foxbat

dabong1 said:


> You could send special forces which the indians have done in the past but with the current situation the pakistani army capturing "state backed terrorist" would be a diplomatic-media disaster for the indians.


But based on the comments of senior members on this forum including the moderators and super moderators, isnt targeting armed forces (Indian or Pakistani) in a disputed areas (both Indian and Pakistani parts of Kashmir) considered fair game and not terrorism. In which case on the Pakistani side, the PA is the terrorist occupying force.. Isnt it?

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

foxbat said:


> In which case on the Pakistani side, the PA is the terrorist occupying force.. Isnt it?


No - since Pakistan is not the one refusing Kashmiris the right to self determination and refusing to hold a plebiscite so that Kashmiris can make a decision about their future status.


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## Iggy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No - since Pakistan is not the one refusing Kashmiris the right to self determination and refusing to hold a plebiscite so that Kashmiris can make a decision about their future status.



But it was Pakistan who didnt agree with UN resolution of complete withdrawal of forces..and also with out the approval of Kashmiries your country gave the land of Kashmir to China and also annexed Giljit from them..In short you are no better than us..just the mask of Muslim brotherhood saving you..


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## vsdoc

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No - since Pakistan is not the one refusing Kashmiris the right to self determination and refusing to hold a plebiscite so that Kashmiris can make a decision about their future status.



So AM, why don't you allow the Kashmir you hold that much bandied "self determination", and that done, join forces with those newly self-determined Kashmiris/Pakistanis and come and launch a full frontal assault on terrorist India to free the other 2/3?

Would be so much less painful that this .....  

What's holding you guys back? Something else got your attention perchance?

As a nation, you need to develop the spine and the courage of conviction to back up your words with action, and not hide behind and under "proxy" skirts my friend. 

Or pathetic crumbling "non-state" facades.

Fact of the matter is, Pakistan can do nothing today or tomorrow that cannot be revisited on it tenfold, a hundredfold, by India. 

And sovereign India would decide on its course of foreign policy and targetted theaters of engagement, which may or may not fit snugly into unilaterally proclaimed "disputed" compartmentalisations.

When you guys are done cleaning up your current mess, hope that message would have hit home and sense would prevail all around.

Cheers, Doc


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

seiko said:


> But it was Pakistan who didnt agree with UN resolution of complete withdrawal of forces..and also with out the approval of Kashmiries your country gave the land of Kashmir to China and also annexed Giljit from them..In short you are no better than us..just the mask of Muslim brotherhood saving you..


That is incorrect, as argued out in the Resolutions thread and the 1948 war thread, between Toxic and myself.

The demilitarization was not unilateral and unconditional and was contingent on negotiations between Pakistan, India and the UN rapporteurs, and the language of the UNSC resolutions reflected that, which is often ignored by Indian commentators to paint Pakistan as having violated the resolutions by not unilaterally withdrawing.

Please check those threads for the discussion.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

vsdoc said:


> So AM, why don't you allow the Kashmir you hold that much bandied "self determination", and that done, join forces witht those newly self-determined Kashmiris/Pakistanis and come and launch a full frontal assault on terrorist India to free the other 2/3?


Because such a plebiscite would not conform with the UNSC resolutions - the plebiscite has to be across the entire State.


> Would be so much less painful that this .....


Not at all, since Indian occupation and suppression of Kashmir and the denial of Kashmir rights by India would still continue.


> As a nation, you need to develop the spine and the courage of conviction to back up your words with action, and not hide behind and under "proxy" skirts my friend.
> 
> Cheers, Doc


Our conscience is clear in supporting the right of Kashmiris to define their destiny through self-determination. Your nation is the one that needs to develop the moral and ethical courage to end the occupation and subjugation of millions of Kashmiris and the denial of plebiscite, that was accepted as a condition of accession by India, as well as through the UNSC resolutions.


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## TaimiKhan

vsdoc said:


> So AM, why don't you allow the Kashmir you hold that much bandied "self determination", and that done, join forces witht those newly self-determined Kashmiris/Pakistanis and come and launch a full frontal assault on terrorist India to free the other 2/3?
> 
> What's holding you guys back?
> 
> Would be so much less painful that this .....
> 
> *As a nation, you need to develop the spine and the courage of conviction to back up your words with action, and not hide behind and under "proxy" skirts my friend. *
> 
> Or pathetic crumbling "non-state" facades.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



As a nation then you guys should not also have armed, trained and supported the Mukthi Bani in dismembering Pakistan, as a nation you should also have made a direct assault and not hide behind and under "proxy Mukhti Bani" skirts, and once PA weakened, do an assault. 

So since same thing was done by India, used proxies and then launched the assault when saw Pakistan weak, same case with us, first weaken you guys, then will do the assault. 

So before pointing at us, see to your own cowardly actions of supporting proxies for terrorism and dismembering Pakistan.


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## vsdoc

Thanks Taimi. 

And there guys we FINALLY have it, shorn of all the righteous window dressing!

Pakistan is least bothered about Kashmir, less about Kashmiris.

Pakistan is still smarting under the pain of 1971. 

And Pakistan will self destruct if it continues on its present futile course of seeking parity and vengeance.

Cheers, Doc

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## TaimiKhan

vsdoc said:


> Thanks Taimi.
> 
> And there guys we FINALLY have it, shorn of all the righteous window dressing!
> 
> Pakistan is least bothered about Kashmir, less about Kashmiris.
> 
> Pakistan is still smarting under the pain of 1971.
> 
> And Pakistan will self destruct if it continues on its present futile course of seeking parity and vengeance.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Thanks for your advice, and if we had only wanted to avenge for 71, then there are many other ways to do that also, but its not about just avenging. 

Time will tell who self destructs, still thanks for your concern.


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That is incorrect, as argued out in the Resolutions thread and the 1948 war thread, between Toxic and myself.
> 
> The demilitarization was not unilateral and unconditional and was contingent on negotiations between Pakistan, India and the UN rapporteurs, and the language of the UNSC resolutions reflected that, which is often ignored by Indian commentators to paint Pakistan as having violated the resolutions by not unilaterally withdrawing.
> 
> Please check those threads for the discussion.



Are you referring to this:



toxic_pus said:


> The Truce Agreement does talk of tripartite negotiations, but not to _determine the details and process of demilitarization_. Part II/B(1) reads:
> 
> When the Commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistan nationals referred to in Part II A 2 hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistan forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, t*he Government of India agrees* to begin to withdraw the bulk of their forces from the State in stages *to be agreed upon with the Commission*​
> Nehru while seeking clarifications on the resolution of 13th Aug, 1948, had sought to identify the parties to the negotiation concerning demilitarization. He wrote to Joseph Korbel, the Chairman of the Commission, on 20th Aug, 1948 (UNCIPs 1st Report):
> _...the paramount need for security is recognized by the Commission, and *the time* when the withdrawal of Indian forces from the State is to begin, *the stages* in which it is to be carried out and *the strength* of Indian forces to be retained in the State, are *matters for settlement between the Commission and the Government of India*. (para 4)​_Joseph Korbel, wrote back, on 25th Aug, 1948, confirming Nehrus interpretation (UNCIPs 1st Report):
> _The Commission requests me to convey to Your Excellency its view that the *interpretation of the Resolution as expressed in paragraph 4 of your letter coincides with its own interpretation*...​_Pakistan, too, had sought clarification on this very issue. Joseph Korbel, in his letter to Zafarulla Khan, dated 3rd Sept, 1948, stated (UNCIPs 1st Report):
> _As regards paragraphs B 1 and 2 of Part II, the Commission, while recognizing the paramount need for security of the State of Jammu ad Kashmir, confirms that the minimum strength required for the purpose of assisting the local authorities in the observance of law and order, would be *determined by the Commission and the Government of India*. The Commission considers that it is free to hear the views of the Government of Pakistan on the subject.​_In other words, India was neither obliged to negotiate with Pakistan nor to share information about demilitarization with anyone other than UN Commission. Neither did Pakistan have any right to dictate terms and conditions for its own withdrawal or seek information from India, or perhaps even from UN, about Indias withdrawal. Pakistans role was relegated to that of someone who Commission may hear, and not that of a party to the negotiation. As far as India was concerned, UN was _free to hear views_ of Jupiterions, if UN so desired.
> 
> UNCIPs 3rd Report, clarifies the positions of the two countries on this issue of demilitarization and the process of negotiations.
> 
> _''...the Pakistan delegation held (a) that the objective of the truce agreement is to create a military balance between the forces on each side and (b) that the withdrawal of her regular forces depended upon plans acceptable to the Pakistan Government for the synchronization of this withdrawal that of the bulk of the Indian forces. (para 229)
> 
> India, on the other hand, has (a) never accepted the claim of Pakistan to equality of rights in a military or any other sphere, but considers that the presence of Pakistan troops in Kashmir constitutes an act of aggression and a violation of international law; and (b) has refused to discuss with Pakistan any feature of the withdrawal of Indian forces, maintaining that the timing and staging of the Indian withdrawals and the strength of Indian forces to be retained in the State were matters for settlement between the Commission and the Government of India. The Government of India at this time also made it clear that the fulfillment by the Government of Pakistan of the conditions of withdrawal was a condition precedent to the implementation by the Government of India of any arrangement regarding the withdrawal of its own forces. (para 230)​_
> The Truce Agreement is clear that Pakistan would have to evacuate the territories captured by it and the local authority will be looking after the administration of the evacuated territory under the direct supervision of the UN Commission.
> 
> _Pending a final solution the territory evacuated by the Pakistan troops will be administered by the local authorities under the surveillance of the Commission. [Part II/A(3)]_​
> By no stretch of imagination can this be construed that _the objective of the truce agreement is to create a military balance between the forces on each side_. This deliberately flawed position of (a) led to (b). From Pakistans point of view, if it could be established that the withdrawal was about bringing in a _military balance_, it would then naturally mean that Pakistan got to decide what, for them, was an acceptable _military balance_. This in turn would mean that Pakistans withdrawal was contingent upon its agreement with Indian plan of withdrawal. It would then be very easy for Pakistan to weasel out of its own obligation by simply citing its disagreement with Indian plan of demilitarization. (Thats exactly what they did eventually and continue to do)
> 
> The Commission had on several occasions, clarified, that Pakistan had to _completely_ withdraw from the occupied part. The evacuated land was then to become UNs concern and Pakistan had absolutely no role to play in it (not even in the subsequent plebiscite). Pakistans argument, based on its flawed premise, was in complete contradiction with the Commissions clarifications. For example, UNCIPs 3rd Report states:
> 
> _...the Resolution [], as has been pointed out, *draws a distinction between the withdrawal of Indian and Pakistan forces*. *Pakistan troops are to begin to withdraw in advance* of the Indian troops and *their withdrawal is not conditioned on Pakistan's agreement to the plan of the Indian withdrawal*. (para 242)
> 
> That *Resolution does not suggest that Pakistan should be entitled to make her withdrawals conditional upon the consultations envisaged between the Commission and the Government of India* having led to an agreed schedule of withdrawal of Indian troops. What Pakistan could expect would be that assurance be made that the withdrawals of the two armed forces be arranged and carried out in such a way as to prevent the creation of a situation which might constitute an opportunity for one or the other party to reopen the hostilities. (para 243) _​
> To summarise, (a) negotiations regarding demilitarization was very much a bipartite affair, where Pakistan had limited role to play, if at all it had any role to play, and (b) Pakistans withdrawal was unconditional and unilateral, in the sense that it didnt depend on Indias plan for demilitarization.
> ___________________________
> 
> End Note:
> 
> UNCIPs 1st Report was prepared by Mr Alfredo Lonazo, representative of Columbia and is dated 22, Nov, 1948. Commissions chairman was Mr Joseph Korbel.
> 
> UNCIPs 3rd Report was prepared by Mr Robert van de Karchove, representative of Belgium and is dated 9 Dec, 1949. Commissions chairman was Mr Hernando Semper.



I have a feeling that this thread is about to take another detour.

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## toxic_pus

TaimiKhan said:


> As a nation then you guys should not also have armed, trained and supported the Mukthi Bani in dismembering Pakistan, as a nation you should also have made a direct assault and not hide behind and under "proxy Mukhti Bani" skirts, and once PA weakened, do an assault.
> 
> So since same thing was done by India, used proxies and then launched the assault when saw Pakistan weak, same case with us, first weaken you guys, then will do the assault.
> 
> So before pointing at us, see to your own cowardly actions of supporting proxies for terrorism and dismembering Pakistan.


If the basis of your argument is who did what before whom, you would loose fair and square. First, 1947 infiltration into the sovereign state of Kashmir, and then 1965 infiltration into the sovereign state of India, all under the proxy skirt of freedom fighting.

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## toxic_pus

vsdoc said:


> Thanks Taimi.
> 
> And there guys we FINALLY have it, shorn of all the righteous window dressing!
> 
> Pakistan is least bothered about Kashmir, less about Kashmiris.
> 
> Pakistan is still smarting under the pain of 1971.
> 
> And Pakistan will self destruct if it continues on its present futile course of seeking parity and vengeance.
> 
> Cheers, Doc


O daktaar saheb, Kashmir was never about Kashmiris, not to Paksitan. Here is Bhutto's assessment for your amusement.

_*If a Muslim majority area can remain a part of India, then the raison d'etre of Pakistan collapses*. These are the reasons why India, to continue her domination of Jammu and Kashmir, defies international opinion and violates her pledges. For the same reasons, Pakistan must continue unremittingly her struggle for the right of self-determination of this subject people. *Pakistan is incomplete without Jammu and Kashmir both territorially and ideologically. Recovering them, she would recover her head and be made whole, stronger, and more viable.* It would be fatal if, in sheer exhaustion or out of intimidation, Pakistan were to abandon the struggle, and a bad compromise would be tantamount to abandonment; which might, in turn, lead to the collapse of Pakistan.'

[Myth of Independence by Zulifiqar Ali Bhutto]​_
Its all about Pakistan.

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## vsdoc

Which is why we need to club "hindu" Jammu with Kashmir and c-o-c-k (not hyphenating causes the appearance of asterixes for some reason) our own ideologically secular snook at them. 

For posterity. 

Cheers, Doc

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> Are you referring to this:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a feeling that this thread is about to take another detour.



The thread does not have to take a detour since the arguments have been hashed out several times on the threads mentioned, so lets stick to those threads.

And no, as argued by me on those threads, without a convincing counterargument by you (IMO, you may disagree) there was no condition upon Pakistan to withdraw unilaterally unless satisfied with the outcomes of negotiations.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

vsdoc said:


> Thanks Taimi.
> 
> And there guys we FINALLY have it, shorn of all the righteous window dressing!
> 
> Pakistan is least bothered about Kashmir, less about Kashmiris.
> 
> Pakistan is still smarting under the pain of 1971.
> 
> And Pakistan will self destruct if it continues on its present futile course of seeking parity and vengeance.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Its not about vengeance, that is your distorted narrative - it is merely about pointing out Indian double standards and hypocrisy when India and Indians criticize Pakistan for its actions in Kashmir, without condemning their own actions in East Pakistan.

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## Awesome

toxic_pus said:


> Are you referring to this:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a feeling that this thread is about to take another detour.


What fairy tale of the UN resolutions are they telling you guys in Kashmir that Pak has to evacuate.

BOTH countries have to minimize their presence in Kashmir.



> Urges the Governments of India and Pakistan to enter into immediate negotiations under the auspices of the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan in order to reach agreement on the specific number of forces to remain on each side of the cease-fire line at the end of the period of demilitarization, *this number to be between 3,000 and 6,000 armed forces remaining on the Pakistan side of the cease-fire line and between 12,000 and 18,000 armed forces remaining on the India side of the cease-fire line,* as suggested by the United Nations Representative in his proposals of 16 July 1952, such specific numbers to be arrived at bearing in mind the principles or criteria contained in paragraph 7 of the United Nations Representative's proposal of 4 September 1952;


http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc23dec52.htm

What selective memory the Indians have... We are keeping less people, taking a big risk with India's 3 times larger force even with this minimization.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> If the basis of your argument is who did what before whom, you would loose fair and square. First, 1947 infiltration into the sovereign state of Kashmir, and then 1965 infiltration into the sovereign state of India, all under the proxy skirt of freedom fighting.


More hypocrisy and double standards, ignoring India's own military invasion of the 'sovereign States' of Junagadh and Hyderabad.

The 1965 infiltration of J&K cannot be considered an infiltration of the 'sovereign State of India' since the State is disputed territory and India never fulfilled the condition of plebiscite that accompanied the accession.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Asim Aquil said:


> What selective memory the Indians have... We are keeping less people, taking a big risk with India's 3 times larger force even with this minimization.



It is selective quotations - in the thread I mentioned his own quotes made clear that Pakistan was under no compulsion to withdraw unilaterally, and in fact his argument ended up being reduced to one in which he was blaming Pakistan for 'intransigence' in the negotiations that led to the failure to demilitarize and therefore the failure to implement the UNSC resolutions.

The argument that Pakistan 'violated the UNSC resolutions' by not withdrawing is nothing but an Indian canard to find some justification for their own refusal to implement the UNSC resolutions.

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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> More hypocrisy and double standards, ignoring India's own military invasion of the 'sovereign States' of Junagadh and Hyderabad.
> 
> *The 1965 infiltration of J&K cannot be considered an infiltration of the 'sovereign State of India' since the State is disputed territory and India never fulfilled the condition of plebiscite that accompanied the accession*.



What about subsequent Operation Grandslam??...Was that also legitmate?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> O daktaar saheb, Kashmir was never about Kashmiris, not to Paksitan. Here is Bhutto's assessment for your amusement.
> 
> _*If a Muslim majority area can remain a part of India, then the raison d'etre of Pakistan collapses*. These are the reasons why India, to continue her domination of Jammu and Kashmir, defies international opinion and violates her pledges. For the same reasons, Pakistan must continue unremittingly her struggle for the right of self-determination of this subject people. *Pakistan is incomplete without Jammu and Kashmir both territorially and ideologically. Recovering them, she would recover her head and be made whole, stronger, and more viable.* It would be fatal if, in sheer exhaustion or out of intimidation, Pakistan were to abandon the struggle, and a bad compromise would be tantamount to abandonment; which might, in turn, lead to the collapse of Pakistan.'
> 
> [Myth of Independence by Zulifiqar Ali Bhutto]​_
> Its all about Pakistan.



A political leader's rambling, perhaps for pushing a particular political agenda, cannot be taken as the the motivation or justification for the position of the State on disputes that existed long before his time in power and continue to exist after his demise.

Nothing illustrates that fact better than Jinnah's vision of Pakistan as a Muslim majority State with, in essence, secular laws, and the direction that Pakistan actually took. That point is further illustrated by the ideological direction Zia took Pakistan in, and the recent removal of the title 'President' from his name in Pakistani history.

The only thing selective quotations of statements by political leaders do is to offer more skewed justification for a distorted agenda of hate-mongering and vilification of Pakistan by people like yourselves and Vsdoc - much like the canard about 'vengeance for East Pakistan'.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> What about subsequent Operation Grandslam??...Was that also legitmate?


A military operation in response to military attacks by India against Pakistan in response to the infiltration attempt?

Why would it not be legitimate? It was war at that point.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

^^^So that means if tomorrow if India carries out surgical strikes in Pak administrated Kashmir and then captures it in response to Pak reataliation...India will be fully within rights to do since it is a disputed territory and no plebiscite has been carried out there??

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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And no, as argued by me on those threads, without a convincing counterargument by you (IMO, you may disagree) there was no condition upon Pakistan to withdraw unilaterally unless satisfied with the outcomes of negotiations.


Will leave it here, with a rejoinder, that Pakistan's withdrawal was not conditioned upon its satisfaction with the outcomes of negotiation. 

_'Pakistan troops are to begin to withdraw in advance of the Indian troops and their withdrawal is *not conditioned on Pakistan's agreement to the plan of the Indian withdrawal*.' (para 242)

'*That Resolution does not suggest that Pakistan should be entitled to make her withdrawals conditional upon the consultations envisaged between the Commission and the Government of India*...' (para 243)

[UNCIP's 3rd report, prepared by Mr Robert van de Karchove]​_
The 'assurance', that para 243 talks of is an assurance that UN, not India, was to give to Pakistan and was to be incorporated in the mechanism of withdrawal, which had to be to the satisfaction of UN, not Pakistan. That is the reason why India agreed to removal of troops in stages, so as to _'to prevent the creation of a situation which might constitute an opportunity for one or the other party to reopen the hostilities' _


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## toxic_pus

Asim Aquil said:


> What fairy tale of the UN resolutions are they telling you guys in Kashmir that Pak has to evacuate.
> 
> BOTH countries have to minimize their presence in Kashmir.
> 
> 
> http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc23dec52.htm
> 
> What selective memory the Indians have... We are keeping less people, taking a big risk with India's 3 times larger force even with this minimization.


Do you have a clue how _'armed force'_ was defined in Frank Graham's 4th report, to which the resolution makes reference?

You are doing no one any favour holding 'less people' in Kashmir. You are supposed to be not there at all.

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## Awesome

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> ^^^So that means if tomorrow if India carries out surgical strikes in Pak administrated Kashmir and then captures it in response to Pak reataliation...India will be fully within rights to do since it is a disputed territory and no plebiscite has been carried out there??


First of all its only India that doesn't agree to a plebiscite, making every single thing that India does, breathes, lives, dies, farts, all illegal - it makes India the bad guy. We start with this assumption in all things about Kashmir.

India has no basis of keeping Kashmir other than through force. 

But with that said, Pakistan has never shied away from a fight and all your "decisive action" threats (vajpayee) and "surgical strike" threats (MMS), all have been met eyeball to eyeball and you're welcome to try any misadventure.


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> More hypocrisy and double standards, ignoring India's own military invasion of the 'sovereign States' of Junagadh and Hyderabad.


Except that infiltration into the sovereign state of Kashmir happened long before India's entry into Junagadh. And why did India enter Junagadh? Because the ruler of the state had abandoned the state leaving it leaderless, into the throes of chaos. Hyderabad happened in 1948.



> The 1965 infiltration of J&K cannot be considered an infiltration of the 'sovereign State of India' since the State is disputed territory and India never fulfilled the condition of plebiscite that accompanied the accession.


No resolution was ever passed declaring it a disputed territory. Instrument of Accession explicitly gave India the right to look after the security of the State. 

India couldn't fulfill the condition for plebiscite because of Pakistan's perfidy.


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## Awesome

toxic_pus said:


> Do you have a clue how _'armed force'_ was defined in Frank Graham's 4th report, to which the resolution makes reference?
> 
> You are doing no one any favour holding 'less people' in Kashmir. You are supposed to be not there at all.


We're taking a risk since we're trying to secure the freedom of the Kashmiris. It is YOU who has been rejected and will be rejected in a UN administered plebiscite thats why you're too afraid to go ahead with it.

Armed forces is ALL armed forces and that interpretation should be left up to the UN, not to you and me. Haha now India is going to reinvent English words to justify not manning up and seeing what Kashmiri people want in a UN administered plebiscite.


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It is selective quotations - in the thread I mentioned his own quotes made clear that Pakistan was under no compulsion to withdraw unilaterally, and in fact his argument ended up being reduced to one in which he was blaming Pakistan for 'intransigence' in the negotiations that led to the failure to demilitarize and therefore the failure to implement the UNSC resolutions.
> 
> The argument that Pakistan 'violated the UNSC resolutions' by not withdrawing is nothing but an Indian canard to find some justification for their own refusal to implement the UNSC resolutions.


That post was to counter your canard that demilitarization was tripartite affair, making Pakistan a negotiating member. Mr Robert van de Karchove's report makes it clear that it was bipartite negotiation between UN and India.

De-contextualization appears to be second nature.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Asim Aquil said:


> First of all its only India that doesn't agree to a plebiscite, making every single thing that India does, breathes, lives, dies, farts, all illegal - it makes India the bad guy. We start with this assumption in all things about Kashmir.
> 
> India has no basis of keeping Kashmir other than through force.
> 
> But with that said, Pakistan has never shied away from a fight and all your "decisive action" threats (vajpayee) and "surgical strike" threats (MMS), all have been met eyeball to eyeball and you're welcome to try any misadventure.



"*India not agreeing plebiscite" is not the topic we are debating.
*
Clearly in Pakistan there is a consensus that because India had not carried out plebiscite, it had a just cause in attacking Kashmir..but then Pakistan must also accept its converse, that India has a just cause to take Kashmir by force, since it is a disputed territory.

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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> A political leader's rambling, perhaps for pushing a particular political agenda, cannot be taken as the the motivation or justification for the position of the State on disputes that existed long before his time in power and continue to exist after his demise.


And yet its these political leaders that give direction to a state. 

If you so desire I can quote Sir Zafarulla Khan's response to UN representative about how Pakistan viewed Kashmir. (That would require some digging though)



> Nothing illustrates that fact better than Jinnah's vision of Pakistan as a Muslim majority State with, in essence, secular laws, and the direction that Pakistan actually took. That point is further illustrated by the ideological direction Zia took Pakistan in, and the recent removal of the title 'President' from his name in Pakistani history.


_Kashmir will fall into our lap like a ripe fruit - Jinnah, August 1947_ [_Pakistan - Eye of The Storm by Owen Bennett Jones_] 

That's how Jinnah took Kashmir for granted. If you must know he was dead against plebiscite in Kashmir, since the formula for accession of Princely States was pronounced. He didn't give two hoots to the opinion of people of Kashmir and openly claimed that Maharaja's decision would be final. On 1st Nov, 1947 he blatantly refused Mountbatten's proposal to go for plebiscite in Kashmir, Junagadh and Hyderabad.

How he wanted to build Pakistan is in complete contrast to how he wanted to acquire Kashmir.



> The only thing selective quotations of statements by political leaders do is to offer more skewed justification for a distorted agenda of hate-mongering and vilification of Pakistan by people like yourselves and Vsdoc - much like the canard about 'vengeance for East Pakistan'.


Yes of course. Ignorance is bliss and anybody pulling those blinkers away is a hatemonger. What else can you do other than shooting the messenger.

No messenger no message.

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## toxic_pus

Asim Aquil said:


> First of all its only India that doesn't agree to a plebiscite, making every single thing that India does, breathes, lives, dies, farts, all illegal - it makes India the bad guy. We start with this assumption in all things about Kashmir.
> 
> India has no basis of keeping Kashmir other than through force.


Keep repeating that for another 10,000 times and it still won't be true. Only 9,999 times more to go.

Given that UN resolution requires Pakistan to withdraw from occupied Kashmir, where even the local administration was to be run by 'local authority' under direct supervision of UN, it is aptly clear who UN viewed as illegal occupier of Kashmir.

What you assume about Kashmir is irrelevant. 


> But with that said, Pakistan has never shied away from a fight and all your "decisive action" threats (vajpayee) and "surgical strike" threats (MMS), all have been met eyeball to eyeball and you're welcome to try any misadventure.


India never tried any 'misadventure' in Kashmir. India never will.


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## Awesome

toxic_pus said:


> Keep repeating that for another 10,000 times and it still won't be true. Only 9,999 times more to go.
> 
> Given that UN resolution requires Pakistan to withdraw from occupied Kashmir, where even the local administration was to be run by 'local authority' under direct supervision of UN, it is aptly clear who UN viewed as illegal occupier of Kashmir.
> 
> What you assume about Kashmir is irrelevant.
> 
> India never tried any 'misadventure' in Kashmir. India never will.


It requires EVERYBODY to withdraw, I've just posted the UN resolution

Read all the resolutions, not just one of them


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## Awesome

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> "*India not agreeing plebiscite" is not the topic we are debating.
> *
> Clearly in Pakistan there is a consensus that because India had not carried out plebiscite, it had a just cause in attacking Kashmir..but then Pakistan must also accept its converse, that India has a just cause to take Kashmir by force, since it is a disputed territory.


Who says India is not attacking us anyway? India is attacking in all parts of Pakistan whereas Pakistan focuses on Kashmir. TTP is testament of India terrorism against Pakistan

Nothing about India is just when it comes to Kashmir since it has backed off India's plebiscite. Everything done against India in Kashmir is just.


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## toxic_pus

Asim Aquil said:


> We're taking a risk since we're trying to secure the freedom of the Kashmiris. It is YOU who has been rejected and will be rejected in a UN administered plebiscite thats why you're too afraid to go ahead with it.


You are not trying to secure 'freedom of the Kashmiris'. You are just trying fulfill your territorial ambitions. The world no longer buys that horse$hit.

And it was Pakistan which did everything to muddy the waters during the time, claiming 'parity' and redefining 'local authority'.contrary to how it was envisaged by the UN. The pre-conditions were not fulfilled and so there was no plebiscite. After your naked violation of Cease Fire agreement in 1965, India was no longer bound by any UN resolution.



> Armed forces is ALL armed forces and that interpretation should be left up to the UN, not to you and me. Haha now India is going to reinvent English words to justify not manning up and seeing what Kashmiri people want in a UN administered plebiscite.


Just as I thought. You are clue less about how 'armed forces' was defined by Frank Graham. If you knew you would have deciphered the reason why India didn't agree to his proposal.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Asim Aquil said:


> Who says India is not attacking us anyway? India is attacking in all parts of Pakistan whereas Pakistan focuses on Kashmir. TTP is testament of India terrorism against Pakistan



TTP  

I would have still, understood if you had mentioned BLA but TTP ..the same organisation which was ready to abandon its fight against the Pak govt and ready to join fight against India. 

It is same as India blaming Pakistan for Maoist insurgency.


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## toxic_pus

Asim Aquil said:


> It requires EVERYBODY to withdraw, I've just posted the UN resolution.


Not really. 

But then again, if you had read not only the resolutions, but also the debates at UNSC, background reports, communiques etc. you wouldn't be saying this.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> Except that infiltration into the sovereign state of Kashmir happened long before India's entry into Junagadh. And why did India enter Junagadh? Because the ruler of the state had abandoned the state leaving it leaderless, into the throes of chaos. Hyderabad happened in 1948.


If by 'long before' you mean to imply 'months' then it is irrelevant in terms of time frame in the scheme of things. Tribal fighters entered Kashmir on October 22 1947, Indian troops invaded Junagadh on the ninth of November 1947 - that is not even a month

And if you are to argue that 'chaos' in the state was justification for India invading a State that had acceded to Pakistan, then Pakistani action in Kashmir is justified in terms of the 'chaos' created by the Dictator Maharajah in Kashmir cracking down on the Muslim population that rose up in revolt against him and his draconian policies. You cannot have it both ways.



> No resolution was ever passed declaring it a disputed territory. Instrument of Accession explicitly gave India the right to look after the security of the State.
> 
> India couldn't fulfill the condition for plebiscite because of Pakistan's perfidy


The UNSC resolutions, accepted by India and Pakistan, indicating that final status was to be determined by plebiscite, implicitly declared the territory to be disputed.

And the accession itself was never complete without the plebiscite being held, no matter what excuse you want to apply, which means that J&K is in no way 'Indian territory'.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> ^^^So that means if tomorrow if India carries out surgical strikes in Pak administrated Kashmir and then captures it in response to Pak reataliation...India will be fully within rights to do since it is a disputed territory and no plebiscite has been carried out there??


India's capture of Kashmiri territory in a war would be just as legitimate as Pakistan's capture of Kashmir territory in a war.


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## rastor

My understanding is the recent round of Indo-Pak talks (unofficially under Musharaf) was not focusing on the plebiscite but on some sort of sharing, soft-borders etc. Rather than squabbling over the intricacies of a 5 decade old resolution, why not discuss these more recent developments?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> Will leave it here, with a rejoinder, that Pakistan's withdrawal was not conditioned upon its satisfaction with the outcomes of negotiation.
> 
> _'Pakistan troops are to begin to withdraw in advance of the Indian troops and their withdrawal is *not conditioned on Pakistan's agreement to the plan of the Indian withdrawal*.' (para 242)
> 
> '*That Resolution does not suggest that Pakistan should be entitled to make her withdrawals conditional upon the consultations envisaged between the Commission and the Government of India*...' (para 243)
> 
> [UNCIP's 3rd report, prepared by Mr Robert van de Karchove]​_
> The 'assurance', that para 243 talks of is an assurance that UN, not India, was to give to Pakistan and was to be incorporated in the mechanism of withdrawal, which had to be to the satisfaction of UN, not Pakistan. That is the reason why India agreed to removal of troops in stages, so as to _'to prevent the creation of a situation which might constitute an opportunity for one or the other party to reopen the hostilities' _





toxic_pus said:


> That post was to counter your canard that demilitarization was tripartite affair, making Pakistan a negotiating member. Mr Robert van de Karchove's report makes it clear that it was bipartite negotiation between UN and India.
> 
> De-contextualization appears to be second nature.



I'd appreciate a link to that report, since it is missing in the two books on 'documents of Kashmir conflict' that I possess (not suggesting it does not exist, just that I would like to read through it since my books - one by a Pakistani and the other by an Indian -appear to have omitted it).

Secondly, whether negotiations were to be strictly tripartite or not does not change the central point of argument that Pakistan was not required to unilaterally withdraw, and therefore committed no violation of the UNSC resolutions in not withdrawing, while negotiations on demilitarization and the conditions of a plebiscite were conducted, as is often claimed by Indian commentators.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> And yet its these political leaders that give direction to a state.


And the direction of the State changes with the leadership, and that has been especially true in Pakistan given the rather massive changes wrought by certain leaders (Zia for example) who are now vilified and whose 'changes' are being undone, step by step.


> _Kashmir will fall into our lap like a ripe fruit - Jinnah, August 1947_ [_Pakistan - Eye of The Storm by Owen Bennett Jones_]
> 
> That's how Jinnah took Kashmir for granted. If you must know he was dead against plebiscite in Kashmir, since the formula for accession of Princely States was pronounced. He didn't give two hoots to the opinion of people of Kashmir and openly claimed that Maharaja's decision would be final. On 1st Nov, 1947 he blatantly refused Mountbatten's proposal to go for plebiscite in Kashmir, Junagadh and Hyderabad.


Jinnah was a man like any other, and men are not perfect, so while he may have had his reasons, in hindsight I would argue such a compromise would have served everyone well. Nonetheless, IIRC, India's position on plebiscite in Kashmir and Junagadh required the accession of Junagadh to Pakistan to be annulled, which is something Jinnah was opposed to since the actual accession itself was legal.

Jinnah's position on Kashmir was likely influenced by the atrocities and open discrimination of the Maharajah against the local population (Muslims primarily) and his suppression of them, and the subsequent revolt against the Maharajahs rule by locals, in whose assistance the Tribal raiders went to Kashmir.



> Yes of course. Ignorance is bliss and anybody pulling those blinkers away is a hatemonger. What else can you do other than shooting the messenger.
> 
> No messenger no message.



Ignorance is bliss for the hatemongers, hence the use of selective quotations and distortions of history to advance and agenda of hatred and in an attempt to justify the occupation and subjugation of millions.


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## Ganga

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Jinnah's position on Kashmir was likely influenced by the atrocities and* open discrimination of the Maharajah against the local population (Muslims primarily) and his suppression of them, and the subsequent revolt against the Maharajahs rule by locals*, in whose assistance the Tribal raiders went to Kashmir.



Can u back up your claim that the Maharajah detested muslims with some credible links.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Ganga said:


> Can u back up your claim that the Maharajah detested muslims with some credible links.



I'd have to dig out the books from my library, I am not sure if they are available online, so it'll be a while before I can post the relevant text.


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## Awesome

toxic_pus said:


> Not really.
> 
> But then again, if you had read not only the resolutions, but also the debates at UNSC, background reports, communiques etc. you wouldn't be saying this.


The document which binds India and Pakistan, binds it to the words that STATE both India and Pakistan has to minimize the forces.

Dude, seriously wtf are you talking about? As they say in Lahore, Lut machi hui hai kya? We'll leave Kashmir for you to walk over? Aiyay, swahagatum!

Come out of this fantasy world and stop clutching at excuses and do the right thing. The only monstrosity here is that which is being committed by India and India alone! India's oppressions, subsequent genocides in Kashmir, the kidnappings, the arson, the rapes, the fake encounters, the mass graves - India deserves to be beaten out of Kashmir if it doesn't opt for plebiscite.

Only India is wrong.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> India's capture of Kashmiri territory in a war would be just as legitimate as Pakistan's capture of Kashmir territory in a war.



*What about in peace time ??..If Pakistan sends SSG and supports insurgency in IAK , then you should not mind if India does the same Pak admin Kashmir??*


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## Awesome

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> *What about in peace time ??..If Pakistan sends SSG and supports insurgency in IAK , then you should not mind if India does the same Pak admin Kashmir??*


We promise to hand your people back in top quality body bags.

From our perspectives, we reserve the right to attack you when we want, however we want, and with whatever force we want. You can have any policy you like or can dare to adopt.

Kashmir deserves its right to self-determination or Indian forces in Kashmir deserve to be attacked. Repeatedly. Take your pick. No excuses, no pussyfooting around it from us.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Asim Aquil said:


> We promise to hand them back in top quality body bags.


And we hope that we could also do the same for you, but the problem is *Pakistan army does not even accept the bodies of its dead soldiers...Not even in high quality body bags.
*


Asim Aquil said:


> From our perspectives, we reserve the right to attack you when we want, however we want, and with whatever force we want. You can have any policy you like or can dare to adopt.



*From our perspectives, If you attack us in Kashmir , we reserve the right to attack you ,anywhere and everywhere in Pakistan.
*
Just like after you attacked us in 65 and failed ..we responded 6 yrs later and cut your country into half.



Asim Aquil said:


> Kashmir deserves its right to self-determination or Indian forces in Kashmir deserve to be attacked. Repeatedly. Take your pick. No excuses, no pussyfooting around it from us.



They have the right to self determination ...they get to elect their govt 
every 5 yrs and* if you were so concerned about their "right to self-determination" you would not have bothered capturing their territory by force in 1947.*
*
You do not get decide all the "rules of engagement" here... you attack 
us in kashmir, and we reserve the right to retaliate,where ever we want , whenever we want and through out Pakistan.*

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## Awesome

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> And we hope that we could also do the same for you, but the problem is *Pakistan army does not even accept the bodies of its dead soldiers...Not even in high quality body bags.
> *


Problem is, your fake encounters are world famous and you've been caught many times on media with the scores of fake encounters that your Indian army does. It kills the Kashmiri youth and then throws them into rivers.




> *From our perspectives, If you attack us in Kashmir , we reserve the right to attack you ,anywhere and everywhere in Pakistan.
> *
> Just like after you attacked us in 65 and failed ..we responded 6 yrs later and cut your country into half.


If you attack elsewhere in Pakistan, we reserve the right to nuke you. No lihaz.



> They have the right to self determination ...they get to elect their govt
> every 5 yrs and* if you were so concerned about their "right to self-determination" you would not have bothered capturing their territory by force in 1947.*
> *
> You do not get decide all the "rules of engagement" here... you attack
> us in kashmir, and we reserve the right to retaliate,where ever we want , whenever we want and through out Pakistan.*



How cute, Indian administered elections = UN administered plebiscite? Indian lame excuses, please. If that is India's argument, then I think we're not debating with sane individuals any more.

You don't get to decide the level of intensity then either. We have a first use nuclear policy and WE decide when we launch all the nukes. We will nuke you. Repeatedly.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Asim Aquil said:


> Problem is, your fake encounters are world famous and you've been caught many times on media with the scores of fake encounters that your Indian army does. It kills the Kashmiri youth and then throws them into rivers.



*Well fake encounter are being dealt by CM Omar Abdullah..and the guilty will punished but the bodies of your soldier in Kargil, which your army refused to accept, were not fake encounters.
*



Asim Aquil said:


> How cute, Indian administered elections = UN administered plebiscite? Indian lame excuses, please. If that is India's argument, then I think we're not debating with sane individuals any more.



*Well again thing is your call for UN plebiscite is just a show, if you were seriously concerned about" Kashmiri right to self determination ", you would have not bothered to capture their territory by force. 
*
*And if you are so partial towards plebiscite , why don't you hold that in Pak Administrated 
Kashmir..go give them the right to self determination.* 


Asim Aquil said:


> If you attack elsewhere in Pakistan, we reserve the right to nuke you. No lihaz.
> 
> You don't get to decide the level of intensity then either. We have a first use nuclear policy and WE decide when we launch all the nukes. We will nuke you. Repeatedly.



*This NFU policy is only good for political talk..when the "chips are down" , and if it comes down to "either you will survive or we will" ...We might just nuke you first and nuke you in a way ..that there is not enough of you left to nuke us back.*

*Coz All is fair in Love and War.*

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## Hulk

Ahh never thought Asim/ Neither Right nor wrong will post a lose comment on Nuke. Anyways guys calm the temper, there is no war happening but if you like to fight virtual war invest in video games.

By the way my thought is insurgency should have some objective, what is your objective here? Do you think it is even close to being achieved? If not I do not understand doing insurgency for the sake of it. We did it in 1971 but had we failed I am sure we would have stopped in 72 or 75. 

My point is how are you going to achieve goals is what you should discuss.

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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> If by 'long before' you mean to imply 'months' then it is irrelevant in terms of time frame in the scheme of things. Tribal fighters entered Kashmir on October 22 1947, Indian troops invaded Junagadh on the ninth of November 1947 - that is not even a month


Not really. 

The tribal fighters started entering Kashmir just days after Pakistans independence. Kashmirs official record shows, 31, Aug, 1947 was the first time that the then sovereign state of Kashmir detected such infiltration. A formal protest was also lodged with Pakistan on 4, Sept, 1947. All these documents came into India's possession after the accession and were filed with UN. 22, Oct, 1947 is popular because, apart from the ferocity of the infiltration and brazenness of Pakistan, that infiltration had directly led to the accession of Kashmir. 



> And if you are to argue that 'chaos' in the state was justification for India invading a State that had acceded to Pakistan, then Pakistani action in Kashmir is justified in terms of the 'chaos' created by the Dictator Maharajah in Kashmir cracking down on the Muslim population that rose up in revolt against him and his draconian policies. You cannot have it both ways.


My argument is not that chaos gave justification for India to enter Junagadh. My argument is that the chaos in a _leaderless State_, where the chaos was actually a communal riot which threatened to result in massive blood bath in absence of any authority, where no other authority, except for India, was anywhere near that State to step in and take control of the situation, gave justification for India to enter Junagadh, once the last authority, the Dewan of Junagadh, father of Zulifiqar Ali Bhutto, had fled on 8, Nov, 1947. 

In case of Kashmir though, the so called revolt was a local affair, restricted to Poonch district (IIRC) while the rest of Kashmir remained calm and was firmly under the Maharaja's control. 

The two situations can't possibly be compared. 



> The UNSC resolutions, accepted by India and Pakistan, indicating that final status was to be determined by plebiscite, implicitly declared the territory to be disputed.


The same UNSC resolutions explicitly acknowledge the authority of India over the Sate of Jammu and Kashmir. There is no implicit dispute about it.


> And the accession itself was never complete without the plebiscite being held, no matter what excuse you want to apply, which means that J&K is in no way 'Indian territory'.


Plebiscite was never required to complete accession of Princely States.


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I'd appreciate a link to that report, since it is missing in the two books on 'documents of Kashmir conflict' that I possess (not suggesting it does not exist, just that I would like to read through it since my books - one by a Pakistani and the other by an Indian -appear to have omitted it).


I dont know if I can provide a link to the documents, I can post screen captures though.






Para 242 (partial)





Para 243 (entire)



> Secondly, whether negotiations were to be strictly tripartite or not does not change the central point of argument that Pakistan was not required to unilaterally withdraw, and therefore committed no violation of the UNSC resolutions in not withdrawing, while negotiations on demilitarization and the conditions of a plebiscite were conducted, as is often claimed by Indian commentators.


Since India was not required to hold any plebiscite unless Pakistan withdrew and certain other conditions, incidental to such withdrawal, were fulfilled, can we then agree that India also didnt violate any UNSC resolution by not holding any plebiscite, simply because the conditions necessary for holding such plebiscite did not exist then, and still continue not to exist.

PS: Out of sheer curiosity, which books are you referring to?

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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And the direction of the State changes with the leadership, and that has been especially true in Pakistan given the rather massive changes wrought by certain leaders (Zia for example) who are now vilified and whose 'changes' are being undone, step by step.


Ill take your word for granted because you know about Pakistan more than I do. It appears however, that 56% of your population still havent got the memo. They still think that Kashmir is all about fighting Jihad.


> Jinnah was a man like any other, and men are not perfect, so while he may have had his reasons, in hindsight I would argue such a compromise would have served everyone well. Nonetheless, IIRC, India's position on plebiscite in Kashmir and Junagadh required the accession of Junagadh to Pakistan to be annulled, which is something Jinnah was opposed to since the actual accession itself was legal.


Jinnah made mistakes. So did his Indian counterpart. We the _hoi polloi_ are suffering for their mistakes.

Indias position that accession of Junagadh to Pakistan be annulled was not something that came in the way of holding plebiscite. If Junagadhs accession to Pakistan was annulled then Kashmirs accession to India had to be annulled as well and to the best of my understanding, Nehru and Mountbatten both acknowledged that fact.



> Jinnah's position on Kashmir was likely influenced by the atrocities and open discrimination of the Maharajah against the local population (Muslims primarily) and his suppression of them, and the subsequent revolt against the Maharajahs rule by locals, in whose assistance the Tribal raiders went to Kashmir.


Not really. But that is a separate discussion that we may indulge in, at some other time in some other appropriate thread.


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## toxic_pus

Asim Aquil said:


> The document which binds India and Pakistan, binds it to the words that STATE both India and Pakistan has to minimize the forces.


I am tired of quoting the resolutions and reports and everything. Just give the resolution of 13, Aug, 1948 a patient reading.



> Dude, seriously wtf are you talking about? As they say in Lahore, Lut machi hui hai kya? We'll leave Kashmir for you to walk over? Aiyay, swahagatum!


That presupposes that Pakistan is entitled to possess Kashmir and hence responsible for its security, both internal and external.

The famous Pakistani sense of entitlement. 



> Come out of this fantasy world and stop clutching at excuses and do the right thing. The only monstrosity here is that which is being committed by India and India alone! India's oppressions, subsequent genocides in Kashmir, the kidnappings, the arson, the rapes, the fake encounters, the mass graves - India deserves to be beaten out of Kashmir if it doesn't opt for plebiscite.
> 
> Only India is wrong.


Aye aye, _Kaptaan_ Pakistan. 

If land of pure is wrong, then it will become land of impure. But it is not land of impure. Therefore land of pure is never wrong. 

Theorem proved. Where's my candy?

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## GUNNER

SRINAGAR, India, June 25, 2010 (AFP) - Two Kashmiri men were killed Friday and three others injured when Indian paramilitary forces opened fire as anti-India protesters pelted their vehicle with stones, police said.

The incident took place in the town of Sopore, some 50 kilometres (31 miles) north of Srinagar, the summer capital of the insurgency-racked region.

"Protesters hurled stones and tried to overturn a paramilitary vehicle prompting the soldiers to open fire that left two dead and three others injured," a police officer told AFP, demanding anonymity.

The death marked the *fifth killing *in which Indian security forces have been implicated during the past two weeks. Earlier three killings -- all in Srinagar -- set off a wave of angry protests and strikes against Indian rule.

After the fresh killings, thousands of residents in Sopore poured on to the streets chanting, *"we want freedom*" and *"blood for blood,"* witnesses said.

Authorities imposed a curfew to prevent violent protests, the officer said.

The latest incident came as hardliners called Friday for Internet protests against Indian rule in Kashmir as they launched a fresh drive against New Delhi with a crippling strike. 

"We appeal people to post 'Go India, Go Back' on Facebook, Twitter and other social networking sites on June 27," senior leader Masarat Alam said in Srinagar.

"The Internet will help us spread our message across the globe," said Alam as Friday's strike closed down shops, schools and offices in Srinagar and other towns in the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley.

"People will know Kashmiris want Indian troops out," added Alam, who was released from jail this month after spending nearly two years in custody for participating in huge anti-India protests in 2008.

Tensions have been running high for months after locals, backed by police, accused the military of killing three civilians in April. 

Alam announced a nine-day campaign of strikes and protests.

He called for a total strike on Friday as well as on July 2 and 3. In between, Alam urged people to hold demonstrations against "India's occupation of Kashmir".

His call came a day after 80-year-old Syed Ali Geelani was charged under a tough security act with being a threat to public order following a string of public protests.

Geelani has been in and out of jail since rebels launched the insurgency against Indian rule in Kashmir in 1989, a conflict that has claimed more than 47,000 lives


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## Abu Zolfiqar

&#1575;&#1606;&#1617;&#1575; &#1604;&#1604;&#1729; &#1608; &#1575;&#1606;&#1617;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1740;&#1729; &#1585;&#1575;&#1580;&#1593;&#1608;&#1606;

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## kugga

Sopore town, 50 kilometres north of Kashmir's summer capital Srinagar, *has been under indefinite curfew since Friday after two young men died when troops opened fire in response to anti-India protesters who attacked their vehicle.*

Police clamped the curfew on the town after thousands of people poured into the streets, torched a security vehicle and attacked a police station to protest against the killing of the two men.

*On Saturday, thousands of demonstrators, defying the curfew, staged noisy protests and clashed with security forces.
Chanting &#8220;We want freedom!&#8221; and &#8220;Blood for blood!&#8221;*, hundreds of residents again defied the curfew on Sunday, prompting security forces to fire rubber bullets that killed a 24-year old man, a police officer said.

&#8220;A rubber bullet pierced his neck. He died on the way to Srinagar's main hospital,&#8221; the officer said, adding several others were injured.

Residents said the victim was not part of the protest and was heading to a mosque when he was hit.

*Tensions have risen in recent months in Indian-administered Kashmir, where two decades of rebellion against New Delhi's rule have left thousands dead.*

In all six civilians have been killed in incidents implicating Indian security forces over the past two weeks.

Nuclear-armed rivals India and Pakistan each rule part of Kashmir but lay claim to all of the scenic Himalayan region.

Authorities ordered a judicial probe into the earlier killing of the two young men by security forces in a bid to stem protests. -AFP


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## salvation

Just look at the picture above. We can see youth of kashmir in stone pelting. This shows the sorry state in which the are in. 
The entire generation of kashmir ,it seems, is highly frustrated. The think by taking out their anger against law enforcement agencies they are going to make their mark in the society and they would be remembered as martyrs. But they fail to understand that they are just a name, nobody will remember them. By doing so they themselves are harming themselves. Its because of these violent activities their state receives none of the massive investment from the companies. Hence they remain unemployed and retort to violence. By now they should have realised that they should ride with india on the roads of prosperity.
Recently there was news that a kashmiri youth has topped civil services exams! This shows how broadminded and fair our society is. 
These kashmiri youth should take examples from that boy.

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## Spring Onion

Those fighting for their freedom from Indian occupation or any occupation Never care if you remember them or not. They know only thing that they will keep on fighting against the invaders.

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## Arjun MBT

Stone Pelting is a serious Offence, offenders are to be Punished.... Provoking Security Forces In sensitive Areas such as these will End Up In a fire.... At least these people Must Have Known that before throwing Stones at security forces...


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## salvation

Incidents like this give a very bad impression about kashmiris. We are forced to think that they are not a part of our civil society. 
Just take the example of what happened after the earthquake in JnK.
Stats showed that after the disaster there was alarmingly less amount collected in the Prime Minister's relief fund for this purpose. When debate occured over this then people said *"Why to send our hard earned money for people who dont even consider themselves as part of india?"*
Incidents like these put more doubt in our minds.
Its sad but true.


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## Spring Onion

salvation said:


> Incidents like this give a very bad impression about kashmiris. We are forced to think that they are not a part of our civil society.
> Just take the example of what happened after the earthquake in JnK.
> Stats showed that after the disaster there was alarmingly less amount collected in the Prime Minister's relief fund for this purpose. When debate occured over this then people said *"Why to send our hard earned money for people who dont even consider themselves as part of india?"*
> Incidents like these put more doubt in our minds.
> Its sad but true.





They are indeed NOT part of India neither your society. You are brutally killing innocent Kashmiris. And there is no doubt there should be no doubt about Kashmiris being NON-Indians.


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## billi

Jana said:


> Those fighting for their freedom from Indian occupation or any occupation Never care if you remember them or not. They know only thing that they will keep on fighting against the invaders.



Sorry, we are not occupying forces, they are secessionist forces.
Dont want to remember the Kashmiri terrorists. Thank you.

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## Arjun MBT

Jana said:


> They are indeed NOT part of India neither your society. You are brutally killing innocent Kashmiris. And there is no doubt there should be no doubt about Kashmiris being NON-Indians.



Oh there goes it again, Ok, Would You Kind Heartedly accept if we hand Over all the kashmiris to you?? Would you take it?? Or do U want it along with kashmir, are u in love with kashmir or Kashmiris is the Question?

The Day when Kashmiris realize it, they will stop being Like this to us...


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## Spring Onion

Arjun MBT said:


> Oh there goes it again, Ok, Would You Kind Heartedly accept if we hand Over all the kashmiris to you?? Would you take it?? Or do U want it along with kashmir, are u in love with kashmir or Kashmiris is the Question?
> 
> The Day when Kashmiris realize it, they will stop being Like this to us...




They are not commodities who should be handed over to anyone. Neither they need to expelled because they have their own Country called Kashmir which is occupied by terrorist state of India.

If you dont want any trouble please get out of Kashmir instead of expelling Kashmiris from their Country.

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## salvation

Jana said:


> They are indeed NOT part of India neither your society. You are brutally killing innocent Kashmiris. And there is no doubt there should be no doubt about Kashmiris being NON-Indians.



You cannot take care of your Pakistan Occopied Kashmir and you are claiming entire kashmir??
Have you forgotten what happened after the earthquakes, you were unable to reach the quake affected parts of ***. And the entire world criticized you for not taking help of india in providing relief in ***.
Kashmir has been an integral part of india and will always be.
Lets see what can you do in this regard.


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## billi

Jana said:


> They are indeed NOT part of India neither your society. You are brutally killing innocent Kashmiris. And there is no doubt there should be no doubt about Kashmiris being NON-Indians.



exactly like the way tibetans are not part of chinese society, or balchis not Pak and Sindhis also not Pak.
kashmiris are as indian as indian can be. I have been to Srinagar in 84. There is a beautiful temple there on top of the hill which was established hundreds of years ago by the saint Adi Sankaracharya who went to kashmir to kanya kumari, That temple signifies the northern boundary of Bharat or hindu india.


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## Arjun MBT

Jana said:


> They are not commodities who should be handed over to anyone. Neither they need to expelled because they have their own Country called Kashmir which is occupied by terrorist state of India.
> 
> If you dont want any trouble please get out of Kashmir instead of expelling Kashmiris from their Country.



You speak as If they are commodities, you are Behaving so, you are asking to stop Law there, See Cant You even think of what is Provoking CRPF to fire??? Stone Pelting is Offense and if it goes Out of hand, the only way is to open fire....

kashmir might be a country to u, But for us, they are Just another state which Constitutes *Republic Of India* , We dont have a Separate Law there.... Even if Stone pelting is done In kerala, Tamil nadu or any state ,the reaction would be same, open fire.... Protests are allowed In democracy But not such acts....


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## billi

Jana said:


> They are not commodities who should be handed over to anyone. Neither they need to expelled because they have their own Country called Kashmir which is occupied by terrorist state of India.
> 
> If you dont want any trouble please get out of Kashmir instead of expelling Kashmiris from their Country.



you are pashtun, why dont you support the fight for your pashtunistan

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## salvation

Jana said:


> They are not commodities who should be handed over to anyone. Neither they need to expelled because they have their own Country called Kashmir which is occupied by terrorist state of India.
> 
> If you dont want any trouble please get out of Kashmir instead of expelling Kashmiris from their Country.



We have only to remove those who oppose us. If the are so interested in living in an islamic society then they are free to go to pakistan. We dont need any of their worthless population. They will be more liability to us than asset. Let them see how pakistanis treat mohajirs.


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## karan.1970

Jana said:


> They are indeed NOT part of India neither your society. You are brutally killing innocent Kashmiris. And there is no doubt there should be no doubt about Kashmiris being NON-Indians.



Whoever doesnt consider themself to be a part of India is more than welcome to leave and go to the country that he considers his own. If they stay in J&K and indulge in such activities, such regrettable but inevitable situations are bound to happen. Loss of civilian life is sad, but if someone decides to step in front of a speeding train, you cant blame the driver. If you attack the security forces in a border area like J&K, you should be ready to accept the consequences. While I am sad for the deaths, dont believe the sec forces should be apologetic about it. They should handle it exactly the same way if it happens again.


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## billi

Jana said:


> They are indeed NOT part of India neither your society. You are brutally killing innocent Kashmiris. And there is no doubt there should be no doubt about Kashmiris being NON-Indians.



are you saying in any country if a community asks to secede they should be given?


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## billi

kugga said:


> Sopore town, 50 kilometres north of Kashmir's summer capital Srinagar, *has been under indefinite curfew since Friday after two young men died when troops opened fire in response to anti-India protesters who attacked their vehicle.*
> 
> Police clamped the curfew on the town after thousands of people poured into the streets, torched a security vehicle and attacked a police station to protest against the killing of the two men.
> 
> *On Saturday, thousands of demonstrators, defying the curfew, staged noisy protests and clashed with security forces.
> Chanting We want freedom! and Blood for blood!*, hundreds of residents again defied the curfew on Sunday, prompting security forces to fire rubber bullets that killed a 24-year old man, a police officer said.
> 
> A rubber bullet pierced his neck. He died on the way to Srinagar's main hospital, the officer said, adding several others were injured.
> 
> Residents said the victim was not part of the protest and was heading to a mosque when he was hit.
> 
> *Tensions have risen in recent months in Indian-administered Kashmir, where two decades of rebellion against New Delhi's rule have left thousands dead.*
> 
> In all six civilians have been killed in incidents implicating Indian security forces over the past two weeks.
> 
> Nuclear-armed rivals India and Pakistan each rule part of Kashmir but lay claim to all of the scenic Himalayan region.
> 
> Authorities ordered a judicial probe into the earlier killing of the two young men by security forces in a bid to stem protests. -AFP



they shouldnt be using rubber bullets. These are dangerous people.


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## Arjun MBT

billi said:


> they shouldnt be using rubber bullets. These are dangerous people.



No that could prove fatal.... Afterall we dont wanna harm them for purpose


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## billi

Arjun MBT said:


> No that could prove fatal.... Afterall we dont wanna harm them for purpose


But they need real bullets beacuse they are dangerous. For the security forces protection only.


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## Arjun MBT

billi said:


> But they need real bullets beacuse they are dangerous. For the security forces protection only.



No, Thats Not fair enough.... Minimal the Harm caused to others.... If we open fire with real bullets Situation gets worsened


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## kugga

Everyone living in kashmir have their right to express their freedom of expression....

They denied to be a part of from the day of independence....

now those who are throwing stones and raising slogans are definitely neither terrorists nor Pakistani insurgents which most of the time India claims....

This news clearly shows how much fed up Kashmiris are of Indians they want freedom and time has come that indians should also realize this....

Just listen to what the people of kashmir are saying they want freedom and please don't compare it to any region in Pakistan because there is no such region in Pakistan.........
Balochistan is totally a different case stop comparing apples with mangoes....


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## billi

Arjun MBT said:


> No, Thats Not fair enough.... Minimal the Harm caused to others.... If we open fire with real bullets Situation gets worsened



I think the life of our armed forces are important, thats why live bullets are necessary. Look at Israel, I dont think they do rubber.


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## kugga

billi said:


> I think the life of our armed forces are important, thats why live bullets are necessary. Look at Israel, I dont think they do rubber.



That's pure mentality of brutal invaders and that's why kashmiris want freedom....


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## billi

kugga said:


> Everyone living in kashmir have their right to express their freedom of expression....
> 
> They denied to be a part of from the day of independence....
> 
> now those who are throwing stones and raising slogans are definitely neither terrorists nor Pakistani insurgents which most of the time India claims....
> 
> This news clearly shows how much fed up Kashmiris are of Indians they want freedom and time has come that indians should also realize this....
> 
> Just listen to what the people of kashmir are saying they want freedom and please don't compare it to any region in Pakistan because there is no such region in Pakistan.........
> Balochistan is totally a different case stop comparing apples with mangoes....


No one is denying Kashmiris right to express themselves. Problem is they demand independence. which cant be given. they are fed up because they are not working within the indian union. the 1 billion people within the indian unioin are not oppressed. Same laws apply to kashmiris. but they choose to revolt. 
Pak says that they are Muslim so they should be part of Pak. Then first let Pak integrate with Bangladesh and then demand Kashmir.

LOL then let TTP continue to express themselves in lahore Karachi and isloo


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## Arjun MBT

kugga said:


> Everyone living in kashmir have their right to express their freedom of expression....
> 
> They denied to be a part of from the day of independence....
> 
> now those who are throwing stones and raising slogans are definitely neither terrorists nor Pakistani insurgents which most of the time India claims....
> 
> This news clearly shows how much fed up Kashmiris are of Indians they want freedom and time has come that indians should also realize this....
> 
> Just listen to what the people of kashmir are saying they want freedom and please don't compare it to any region in Pakistan because there is no such region in Pakistan.........
> Balochistan is totally a different case stop comparing apples with mangoes....



Expression of freedom Is Not stone pelting, its an act of violance and will be dealt with violence... Protests are legal in democracy, but not this, Understand??

For Your kind Info, You look at any part of India, Stone pelting has been dealt like this, Why special attention for kashmir alone???..

We are Listening to kashmir... by the people , For the people and of the people stands as long as There is Peace in the Vally , untill then Violence will be dealt with same counter measures


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## billi

kugga said:


> That's pure mentality of brutal invaders and that's why kashmiris want freedom....



with what bullets does PA shoot BLA with, or chinese shoot tibetans with?


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## Spring Onion

salvation said:


> You cannot take care of your Pakistan Occopied Kashmir and you are claiming entire kashmir??
> Have you forgotten what happened after the earthquakes, you were unable to reach the quake affected parts of ***. And the entire world criticized you for not taking help of india in providing relief in ***.
> Kashmir has been an integral part of india and will always be.
> Lets see what can you do in this regard.




We do NOT claim entire Kashmir neither even one part. Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris and whatever Kashmiris want we are with them. Kashmir is theirs and they had the right to claim it.

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## Arjun MBT

Jana said:


> We do NOT claim entire Kashmir neither even one part. Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris and whatever Kashmiris want we are with them. Kashmir is theirs and they had the right to claim it.



They have the right to ask Anything which Affects or Improves them, But they do not have any right to ask something which affects the country.... People are given Voice to Speak for the best of the country, not for the worst...


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## billi

Jana said:


> We do NOT claim entire Kashmir neither even one part. Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris and whatever Kashmiris want we are with them. Kashmir is theirs and they had the right to claim it.



the referendum which many pakistanis demand, had only 2 options.. join india or join pakistan. Which means that Pak claims it.
Secondly why is Pakistan ocupying 40% of Kashmir?


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## Spring Onion

billi said:


> I think the life of our armed forces are important, thats why live bullets are necessary. Look at Israel, I dont think they do rubber.



Your Indian invading army is already using real bullets and mass graves of Innocent Kashmiris killed by terrorist Indian forces and their puppets are evidence of Indian State terrorism in Kashmir


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## Spring Onion

Arjun MBT said:


> They have the right to ask Anything which Affects or Improves them, But they do not have any right to ask something which affects the country.... People are given Voice to Speak for the best of the country, not for the worst...



Affect that country ??? which country ? INDIA? well thats NOT their country so they are not the one who should think over the benefit or harm to Bharat. Rather bharat should think over the end result of its occupation of the Country Kashmir which belongs to Kashmiris.

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## salvation

kugga said:


> Everyone living in kashmir have their right to express their freedom of expression....
> 
> They denied to be a part of from the day of independence....
> 
> now those who are throwing stones and raising slogans are definitely neither terrorists nor Pakistani insurgents which most of the time India claims....
> 
> This news clearly shows how much fed up Kashmiris are of Indians they want freedom and time has come that indians should also realize this....
> 
> Just listen to what the people of kashmir are saying they want freedom and please don't compare it to any region in Pakistan because there is no such region in Pakistan.........
> Balochistan is totally a different case stop comparing apples with mangoes....



If they want to protest then why cannot they do it in a non-violent way like Gandhiji?? If then they are fired upon then you can say that our armed forces are barbaric.
Pelting stones at security forces creates law and order situation. What else do you expect from security forces in these fragile situation?? 
Its the mercy of the armed forces that they use rubber bullets.


----------



## Arjun MBT

Jana said:


> Your Indian invading army is already using real bullets and mass graves of Innocent Kashmiris killed by terrorist Indian forces and their puppets are evidence of Indian State terrorism in Kashmir



Its not Our problem that you call terrorists Innocent.... As I said terrorists are Our Common Problem, so Killing them makes Our duty... Security is there to protect the whole country from extremism emerging from Kashmir... To Stop it from Going further Security would do its Job Successfully


----------



## billi

Jana said:


> Your Indian invading army is already using real bullets and mass graves of Innocent Kashmiris killed by terrorist Indian forces and their puppets are evidence of Indian State terrorism in Kashmir



nono.. you are mistaken.. very clearly they are using rubber bullets on these street protestors.


----------



## Arjun MBT

Jana said:


> Affect that country ??? which country ? INDIA? well thats NOT their country so they are not the one who should think over the benefit or harm to Bharat. Rather bharat should think over the end result of its occupation of the Country Kashmir which belongs to Kashmiris.



Are they using pakistani currency to buy ration??? Are earning there Living from you? Are You Building Infrastructure there? Are You Creating Jobs there? are You setting Up renewable energy there?

So Any thing else U need to convey?


----------



## kugga

billi said:


> No one is denying Kashmiris right to express themselves. Problem is they demand independence. which cant be given. they are fed up because they are not working within the indian union. the 1 billion people within the indian unioin are not oppressed. Same laws apply to kashmiris. but they choose to revolt.
> Pak says that they are Muslim so they should be part of Pak. Then first let Pak integrate with Bangladesh and then demand Kashmir.
> 
> LOL then let TTP continue to express themselves in lahore Karachi and isloo



It's there right to demand freedom if they don't want to be a part of Indai it's their will.... 

a few days back indians were fighting that Kashmiris are not so much interested in freedom but now when it's clear that their ultimate goal is freedom you are saying that asking freedom is a silly question..... No invader wants to give freedom Britishers were hit so much by WW2 that they were unable to control the sub-continent other wise they were also not interested in giving freedom to us.....

what TTP is doing is a war and they don't want kind of freedom they just want to terrorize people .... why you ppl are comparing two totally opposite things.....

They were throwing stones coz they think Indian armed forces are invaders if that's wrong then stop praising Bhagat singh....


----------



## billi

Jana said:


> Affect that country ??? which country ? INDIA? well thats NOT their country so they are not the one who should think over the benefit or harm to Bharat. Rather bharat should think over the end result of its occupation of the Country Kashmir which belongs to Kashmiris.



the answer is simple. if they are not indians then they can be pakistanis, like millions transferred in '47, those who dont want to be indian can also migrate.
If you ask why should they migrate from their homes, then ask why did migration happpen during partition.


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## salvation

Jana said:


> Your Indian invading army is already using real bullets and mass graves of Innocent Kashmiris killed by terrorist Indian forces and their puppets are evidence of Indian State terrorism in Kashmir



Just read the true history of kashmir issue from a neutral source and then tell us who invaded whome or keep living in a self denial mode. Do you have any pictures showing those mass graves?


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## billi

salvation said:


> Just read the true history of kashmir issue from a neutral source and then tell us who invaded whome or keep living in a self denial mode. Do you have any pictures showing those mass graves?



there are no mass graves. Let Pak clear out of P-o-k and hand it over to india.


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## kugga

billi said:


> with what bullets does PA shoot BLA with, or chinese shoot tibetans with?



nice what a comparison sir... I salute you...

BLA as its name suggests is an army may be you don't know
BLA = Baloch Liberation *Army*

Pakistan army there is not shooting on innocent persons if they ask freedom btw it's a diiferent story currently we are talking about Kashmir...


----------



## kugga

billi said:


> the answer is simple. if they are not indians then they can be pakistanis, like millions transferred in '47, those who dont want to be indian can also migrate.
> If you ask why should they migrate from their homes, then ask why *did migration happpen during partition*.



it's because people wanted to migrate so they migrated.... Kashmiris think they are not Indians and India is invading Kashmir so it's their right to ask for freedom from an invader...


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## Ahmad

this kashmir problem will never be solved, india and pakistan both want it for themselves without conceding anything to eachc other.


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## Ammyy

Jana said:


> Affect that country ??? which country ? INDIA? well thats NOT their country so they are not the one who should think over the benefit or harm to Bharat. Rather bharat should think over the end result of its occupation of the *Country Kashmir* which belongs to Kashmiris.



Its part of India and no one take it from us .... 
U try 4 time and got punishment lets try one more time


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## Hulk

Part of this violence is due to the Kashmir's wrong way of protest. In the entire Kashmir there are only 2,3 areas where is protest is happening. Understand this, remember it is Spore, Some Parts of Srinagar mostly. So may I ask why only these places? In any given society there will never be a situation where everyone will be happy with current government/ situation. So there are separatist in Kashmir, and the way they protest clearly indicates that their masters want to create a situation where bullets are fired and someone is killed. I feel that likes of Gilani might feel very happy when someone is killed because that gets them more people. It should be common sense to these people that when you are stone pelting (Act of violence), the security forces will retaliate in defense. If they really want to protest then they should adopt peaceful means, if they did not do that means their intention is different. Also if Kashmiri's were unhappy from 1948 then why these protest never started till 1980's? Why they did not come on Street at time of Kargil and said Pakistan is helping us get what we want, we welcome you? Not a single person came in your support in Kargil. It is not difficult to manufacture dissent, the common people are gullible and feed them with wrong info and some fools will sure jump in. Just because someone is playing games does not mean we will give up. Last the protest is only limited to few region.


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## Dr.Evil

Those Idiots called for it, You dont go out and throw stones on the security forces and dont expect them to throw flowers back.


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## dabong1

* Several others injured as paramilitary forces fire rubber bullets on protesters to disperse them

SRINAGAR: Another man was killed in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) on Sunday when paramilitary forces fired rubber bullets to disperse protesters who had defied a strict curfew, police said.

Sopore, 50 kilometres north of IHKs summer capital Srinagar, has been under indefinite curfew since Friday after two young men died when troops opened fire in response to anti-India protesters who attacked their vehicle.

Police clamped the curfew on the town after thousands of people poured into the streets, torched a security vehicle and attacked a police station to protest against the killing of the two men.

On Saturday, thousands of demonstrators, defying the curfew, staged noisy protests and clashed with security forces.

Chanting We want freedom! and Blood for blood!, hundreds of residents again defied the curfew on Sunday, prompting security forces to fire rubber bullets that killed a 24-year-old man, a police officer said.

A rubber bullet pierced his neck. He died on the way to Srinagars main hospital, the officer said, adding that several others were injured.

Residents said the victim was not part of the protest and was heading to a mosque when he was hit.

Tensions have risen in recent months in Indian Kashmir, where two decades of rebellion against New Delhis rule have left thousands dead.

In all, six civilians have been killed in incidents implicating Indian security forces over the past two weeks.

Nuclear-armed rivals India and Pakistan each rule part of Jammu and Kashmir, but lay claim to all of the scenic Himalayan region. 
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## DGMO

My 2 cents on the topic:

We're back to where this chain of discussion usually ends up, most notably:

*Pak posters:* The Kashmiri's are fighting for their freedom from Indian occupation, it's their right.
*Indian posters:* Kashmir is an integral part of India, these protesters are making their own lives a misery. If Kashmiri's are not happy, they're free to join Pakistan.

This merry-go-round doesn't help in providing any solution to this issue. All we do is accentuate our traditional stands. A starting point should be to talk about where we agree on what's happening in Kashmir. And my take on this is the following:


Kashmiri's are suffering, and there is genuine despair - this suffering is concentrated predominantly in the Valley. A political and non-violent solution is the ONLY answer to their troubles.


Annexation or seccession from the Indian Union is a non-starter. However, autonomy or a greater devolution of powers may be the answer, particularly in the Valley. Whether that meets the demands of 'azadi' that so many shout for is unknown. However, that, coupled with a reduced / withdrawn military presence could quell the troubles of the state. I understand the Indian counter-argument that doing this may result in similar demands in other states, but the 'special status' of Kashmir needs to be the overriding concern.


Borders cannot be redrawn - I don't see Indian administered Kashmir merging with Pakistan, I don't foresee an independent Kashmir. Nor do I see Pakistan administered Kashmir joining India. The LOC as it is will become the current border, although perhaps softened (as has been advocated) to allow greater movement between both sides of the LOC.


The military build-up / presence within the Valley is detrimental to peace efforts. This needs to be reduced for the frustration and humiliation amongst the local population to dissapate.


Pakistan needs to stifle those that scream and preach about jihad in Kashmir. If we're using the excuse that in a democracy, we need to ensure freedom of expression, then that has to be expressed responsibly. That was our response on the facebook / Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) drawing episode, or was it not? Brainwashing another generation on hate and violence will get us nowhere.
Now I'm sure I've said things above that might upset people on both sides of the border. There are entrenched views, and has been mentioned, both sides are only interested in give and not take.

Our thoughts should be primiarily for those that are suffering - Kashmiri's. How can we help them achieve a better life, and how can we in the way of peace improve lives for both nations?

Rose tinted and idealistic is what many may term my stance to be, but our stated positions on Kashmir won't get us anywhere.

Happy to hear views on what I've said (in a respectful and adult like manner of course).

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## Jade

DGMO said:


> My 2 cents on the topic:
> 
> We're back to where this chain of discussion usually ends up, most notably:
> 
> *Pak posters:* The Kashmiri's are fighting for their freedom from Indian occupation, it's their right.
> *Indian posters:* Kashmir is an integral part of India, these protesters are making their own lives a misery. If Kashmiri's are not happy, they're free to join Pakistan.
> 
> This merry-go-round doesn't help in providing any solution to this issue. All we do is accentuate our traditional stands. A starting point should be to talk about where we agree on what's happening in Kashmir. And my take on this is the following:
> 
> 
> Kashmiri's are suffering, and there is genuine despair - this suffering is concentrated predominantly in the Valley. A political and non-violent solution is the ONLY answer to their troubles.
> 
> 
> Annexation or seccession from the Indian Union is a non-starter. However, autonomy or a greater devolution of powers may be the answer, particularly in the Valley. Whether that meets the demands of 'azadi' that so many shout for is unknown. However, that, coupled with a reduced / withdrawn military presence could quell the troubles of the state. I understand the Indian counter-argument that doing this may result in similar demands in other states, but the 'special status' of Kashmir needs to be the overriding concern.
> 
> 
> Borders cannot be redrawn - I don't see Indian administered Kashmir merging with Pakistan, I don't foresee an independent Kashmir. Nor do I see Pakistan administered Kashmir joining India. The LOC as it is will become the current border, although perhaps softened (as has been advocated) to allow greater movement between both sides of the LOC.
> 
> 
> The military build-up / presence within the Valley is detrimental to peace efforts. This needs to be reduced for the frustration and humiliation amongst the local population to dissapate.
> 
> 
> Pakistan needs to stifle those that scream and preach about jihad in Kashmir. If we're using the excuse that in a democracy, we need to ensure freedom of expression, then that has to be expressed responsibly. That was our response on the facebook / Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) drawing episode, or was it not? Brainwashing another generation on hate and violence will get us nowhere.
> Now I'm sure I've said things above that might upset people on both sides of the border. There are entrenched views, and has been mentioned, both sides are only interested in give and not take.
> 
> Our thoughts should be primiarily for those that are suffering - Kashmiri's. How can we help them achieve a better life, and how can we in the way of peace improve lives for both nations?
> 
> Rose tinted and idealistic is what many may term my stance to be, but our stated positions on Kashmir won't get us anywhere.
> 
> Happy to hear views on what I've said (in a respectful and adult like manner of course).



Your thoughts are clear, realistic and implementable; I feel the final solution to Kashmir would be more on these line articulated by you


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## kugga

*SRINAGAR**:* *Indian-administered Kashmir is on the boil again: this time over the killing of eight young Kashmiris in less than three weeks allegedly at the hands of Indian security forces.*

*The deaths have brought thousands of war-weary residents out onto the streets chanting Blood for Blood! and Freedom for Kashmir!. Authorities have responded with bullets, tear gas, curfews and arrests.*

*The latest wave of unrest started on June 11 when a 17-year old student died after being hit by a teargas shell fired by police during an anti-India demonstration in Srinagar.*

Tufail Matoo was not part of the protest and was carrying his school bag when he was hit, his family said.

*Since then seven other young Kashmiris have been killed during protests including one who died from serious skull injuries after being allegedly beaten-up by paramilitary soldiers.*

The strikes, protests and growing ill-will are putting pressure on the young, *British-born chief minister of the volatile Muslim-majority region, Omar Abdullah, a scion of Kashmir's main political dynasty.*

*He came to office last year, promising to reduce the estimated 500,000 Indian troops in the Himalayan state and also to improve human rights.*

Omar (Abdullah) is facing a very serious challenge.* The situation is fast getting out of control, the editor of leading Urdu weekly Chattan (Rock), Tahir Mohiudin, told AFP*.

*His seriousness on improving human rights is now being questioned, he said, adding the present situation has been mishandled as security forces have used excessive force.*

Leading separatist and chief priest of the region's main mosque, *Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, called at the weekend for Abdullah to resign because he has failed to protect the lives of Kashmiris.*

The latest deaths and protests are also a setback for Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh who pledged to improve human rights during a visit this month.

The security forces in Jammu and Kashmir have been strictly instructed to respect human rights of civilians, Singh said in Srinagar.

With bitterness and anger on the rise, the latest protests play into the hands of hardline separatists, who have long resisted talks with New Delhi and seek independence or a merger with Pakistan for the Muslim-majority region.

This is a situation that favours them and they are making full use of it, said Mohiudin.

Nuclear-armed rivals India and Pakistan have each administered part of Kashmir since the partition of the subcontinent after the end of British rule in 1947.

The global flashpoint has been the trigger for two of the three wars fought by the neighbours in the last 60 years.

Once famously called paradise on earth, the heavily militarised region is often described as India's Switzerland dotted as it is with snow-capped peaks, lakes and lush vegetation during the summer months.

During the darkest days of an anti-India insurgency that began in 1989, it was also frequently referred to as the most dangerous place on earth.

Today, it is safer than at any point during the last 20 years measured by the number of murders. But anti-India street protests by young Kashmiris show that resentment still runs deep.

The young generation is fed up with the stalemate, says Mohiudin.

*They want a permanent solution and hence they hit the streets regularly,* he told AFP.

But several rounds of talks between moderate separatists and New Delhi have failed to produce any results and killings by security forces reinforce the notion of occupying Indian troops mistreating the local population.

Radha Kumar from the New Delhi-based Nelson Mandela Centre for Peace and Conflict Resolution attributes the street protests to the lack of prospects for young Kashmiris and the economic backwardness of the region.

Given the instability, companies have shunned investment in the region and tourism, the mainstay of the local economy, has suffered. Most Western governments still discourage their nationals from travel to Kashmir.

*Delay in resolution is bad in itself, but not necessarily the reason for people to go out on the streets. To me the reason for the unrest is the growing number of unemployed young people, Kumar told AFP.
*
*Overall, nearly 70 protesters have died in clashes during protests since mid-2008, according to the police.*


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## blueoval79

On boil again...and will cool down soon.......with a fizzle

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## Areesh

This is an ISI conspiracy.


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## kugga

blueoval79 said:


> On boil again...and will cool down soon.......with a fizzle



Let's see but this issue should resolve its' better for Kashmiris....


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## kugga

and these brutal Indian armed forces should stop this massacre it's enough now stop killing innocent people and then blaming them as terrorists...


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## Areesh

These guys are terrorists. They are throwing such big stones in response to very small bullets. 

They should be eliminated. I agree with Indians.

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## blueoval79

^^^^Well its been almost 6 decades....the great freedome game has been played on all possible turfs.....Direct attack...to gorillah wars ...to Operation Gibraltars...to the so called Jihadis...to stone throwers......lets see what comes next.....


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## Areesh

blueoval79 said:


> ^^^^Well its been almost 6 decades....the great freedome game has been played on all possible turfs.....Direct attack...to gorillah wars ...to Operation Gibraltars...to the so called Jihadis...to stone throwers......lets see what comes next.....



Next would be freedom.


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## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> Next would be freedom.



You are right... next ..... Pak occupied Kashmir got free from Pakistan

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## kugga

Areesh said:


> Next would be freedom.



InshaAllah...


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## Areesh

> All SMS services in Kashmir have been blocked, media reports said Tuesday. The step has been taken by the government keeping in mind the deteriorating law and order situation in the Valley.
> On Monday, two people, Tajamul Bashir (17) and Ashif Hassan Rather (9) died in CRPF firing in Sopore and Baramulla, both 55 km north of Srinagar. *This brings the number of civilian deaths at the hands of troops to eight in 15 days, three of them in the past 48 hours.*
> Kashmir has recently seen a spurt of violence, as a result of which paramilitary forces have been compelled to use force against people partaking in anti-State activities.
> Earlier in April, the Jammu and Kashmir government had banned SMS services across the state for post paid subscribers in the wake of national security issues but was later revoked.



All SMS services blocked in Kashmir, Valley still tense


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## billi

Areesh said:


> This is an ISI conspiracy.



conspiring ISI


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## kugga

DRDO said:


> You are right... next ..... Pak occupied Kashmir got free from Pakistan



if they want to I will fight for them...


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## blueoval79

Areesh said:


> Next would be freedom.



Yes freedom for all that crazy propaganda in the name of freedom...and a frequent Kaboom and rattattatta..of Importd Jihadis.

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## Areesh

DRDO said:


> You are right... next ..... Pak occupied Kashmir got free from Pakistan



Yeah. Lolzzz.


Well it is surprise to know that there is something as Pakistan occupied Kashmir on this globe. Anyways dumb people have their own world.


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## M8R

Indian Denial Mode at it's best

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## kugga

Areesh said:


> All SMS services blocked in Kashmir, Valley still tense



hmmm may they want to stop the "Freedom SMS's" ....


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## Areesh

blueoval79 said:


> Yes freedom for all that crazy propaganda in the name of freedom...and a frequent Kaboom and rattattatta..of Importd Jihadis.



That is not going to happen. 


---------- Post added at 12:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 PM ----------




&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;962253 said:


> Indian Denial Mode at it's best



It is the most important ingredient to be an Indian.


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## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> Yeah. Lolzzz.
> 
> 
> Well it is surprise to know that there is something as Pakistan occupied Kashmir on this globe. Anyways dumb people have their own world.



Well from last 6 decades your dreams are still dreams 

4 time got punishment from our army and still thinking about Kashmir great

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## Areesh

DRDO said:


> Well from last 6 decades your dreams are still dreams
> 
> 4 time got punishment from our army and still thinking about Kashmir great



Humm same goes to you too. 1948 so called Pakistan occupied Kashmir. 2010 still so called Pakistan occupied Kashmir.


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## billi

Areesh said:


> Yeah. Lolzzz.
> 
> 
> Well it is surprise to know that there is something as Pakistan occupied Kashmir on this globe. *Anyways dumb people have their own world.*



yeah. its name is pakistan

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## Decemberrocks

Pakistan obsession to Kashmir is like beggar asking for Kohinoor!!!

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## Areesh

kugga said:


> hmmm may they want to stop the "Freedom SMS's" ....



Next time they will ban that women of Kashmir can't talk to each other. They talk about freedom with each other.


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## Areesh

billi said:


> yeah. its name is pakistan



The fact is it is mother India.


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## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> Next time they will ban that women of Kashmir can't talk to each other. They talk about freedom with each other.



Yes its batter than Taliban law that was still applied in lots of part in Pakistan also

Women not even go any where ... forgate about school 

But in J&K girls going to school without any problem 
And if there is any problem so that was created was terrorist in wally


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## billi

Areesh said:


> The fact is it is mother India.



LOL dont even try you ve lost ..lol


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## kugga

Decemberrocks said:


> Pakistan obsession to Kashmir is like beggar asking for Kohinoor!!!



May you haven't read the article it's about Kashmiris raising slogans and protesting for their freedom no where did Pakistan say give Kashmir to me..... we always said Kashmir issue should be resolved according to the wishes of Kashmiris....


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## Areesh

DRDO said:


> Yes its batter than Taliban law that was still applied in lots of part in Pakistan also
> 
> Women not even go any where ... forgate about school
> 
> But in J&K girls going to school without any problem
> And if there is any problem so that was created was terrorist in wally



Well you have some pathetic reason to satisfy your ego. Good.


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## billi

kugga said:


> May you haven't read the article it's about Kashmiris raising slogans and protesting for their freedom no where did Pakistan say give Kashmir to me..... we always said Kashmir issue should be resolved according to the wishes of Kashmiris....



those are not kashmiris. only imported terrorists from Pakistan and afghanistan and and other -istans.

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## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> Well you have some pathetic reason to satisfy your ego. Good.




You are talking about Women s freedom so m just show you your reality 
And you become senti with that


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## Ammyy

kugga said:


> May you haven't read the article it's about Kashmiris raising slogans and protesting for their freedom no where did Pakistan say give Kashmir to me..... we always said Kashmir issue should be resolved according to the wishes of Kashmiris....



What good you did for Azad kashmir and northern frontier ????

Bolte hai ki kahsmir ka Bhala Chalhte hai ....Bhai tumne AK and Nf ke liye aaj tak kya khas kiya hai .


Waha ke logo ki kya condition hai ????

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## kugga

billi said:


> those are not kashmiris. only imported terrorists from Pakistan and afghanistan and and other -istans.



hmmm.... so you are closing your eyes so that you cannot see the reality....  

Choice is yours bro as you wish, but those are Kashmiris and you cannot deny a fact...


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## billi

kugga said:


> May you haven't read the article it's about Kashmiris raising slogans and protesting for their freedom no where did Pakistan say give Kashmir to me..... we always said Kashmir issue should be resolved according to the wishes of Kashmiris....



why dont you say tibetan issue should be will of tibetans or baluchi issue is will of baluchi


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## Areesh

DRDO said:


> You are talking about Women s freedom so m just show you your reality
> And you become senti with that



And an Indian starts rolling on the floor. That is the best thing an Indian can do I guess.


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## billi

kugga said:


> hmmm.... so you are closing your eyes so that you cannot see the reality....
> 
> Choice is yours bro as you wish, but those are Kashmiris and you cannot deny a fact...



the puppets maybe Kashmiris but the puppeteers are you know who !

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## Areesh

DRDO said:


> What good you did for Azad kashmir and northern frontier ????
> 
> Bolte hai ki kahsmir ka Bhala Chalhte hai ....Bhai tumne AK and Nf ke liye aaj tak kya khas kiya hai .
> 
> 
> Waha ke logo ki kya condition hai ????



They are happy. They don't have mass graves. 

Infact they are fighting their enemies by joining Azad Kashmir Regiment and Northern light Infantry.


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## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> And an Indian starts rolling on the floor. That is the best thing an Indian can do I guess.



In your last post you talking about *pathetic reason *

Now you have nothing to say so start cry again .really good


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## kugga

DRDO said:


> What good you did for Azad kashmir and northern frontier ????
> 
> Bolte hai ki kahsmir ka Bhala Chalhte hai ....Bhai tumne AK and Nf ke liye aaj tak kya khas kiya hai .
> 
> 
> Waha ke logo ki kya condition hai ????



Ok yaar we did nothing now happy....


but they are not occupied we don't have 500,000 soldiers their to control them and to make them civilezed, we do not blame them terrorists, we call them Kashmiris as want themselves to be called...


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## mjnaushad

billi said:


> why dont you say tibetan issue should be will of tibetans or baluchi issue is will of baluchi


Baluchistan is not a disputed territory between India and Pakistan.....


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## Areesh

billi said:


> the puppets maybe Kashmiris but the puppeteers are you know who !



Yes Pakistan has sent all these thousands of protesters. You are a genius.

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## kugga

billi said:


> why dont you say tibetan issue should be will of tibetans or baluchi issue is will of baluchi



Tibetan issue should be will of tibetans and balochi issue should be will of balochis......

but may be you don't know balcohistan issue is an issue of rights not freedom this comparison is not valid...


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## Areesh

DRDO said:


> In your last post you talking about *pathetic reason *
> 
> Now you have nothing to say so start cry again .really good



Keep rolling on the floor. You are good in it.


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## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> Keep rolling on the floor. You are good in it.



I think you are good at bagging


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## billi

kugga said:


> Ok yaar we did nothing now happy....
> 
> 
> but they are not occupied we don't have 500,000 soldiers their to control them and to make them civilezed, we do not blame them terrorists, we call them Kashmiris as want themselves to be called...



only reason they are protesting is because they are backed by terrorist located in Pak. P.o.k has no riots because ordinary kashmiris are not supported by terrorists and India does not send terror across the border

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## roach

This is going to be one of THOSE threads.....happy flaming/trolling, everyone!!


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## Areesh

billi said:


> only reason they are protesting is because they are backed by terrorist located in Pak. P.o.k has no riots because ordinary kashmiris are not supported by terrorists and India does not send terror across the border



Ah mini Indian delusional world. 


By the way what is your army doing on LOC when we are sending all these protesters and that too in huge numbers.

Playing Golf.


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## kugga

billi said:


> only reason they are protesting is because they are backed by terrorist located in Pak. P.o.k has no riots because ordinary kashmiris are not supported by terrorists and India does not send terror across the border



your media and education has fully poisoned you so I cannot prove a simple logic to you....

remain in euphoria...


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## billi

kugga said:


> Tibetan issue should be will of tibetans and balochi issue should be will of balochis......
> 
> but may be you don't know balcohistan issue is an issue of rights not freedom this comparison is not valid...



wont be difficult to make them fight for freedom, if they have backing from across the border and get supplies of arms and ready terror outfits. seriuosly.

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## sudhir007

LoC gunbattle: 6 foreign militants, 3 jawans die: Rediff.com India News

Six armed foreign terrorists were killed on Monday and three Armymen lost their lives in a fierece gunbattle that broke out along the Line of Control [ Images ] (LOC) in Kupwara sector of Jammu and Kashmir [ Images ].

Acting on a tip off, troops picked up the movement of a group of infiltrating militants in 104 forward location along LoC in Kupwara belt and launched an operation, triggering the encounter, a senior Army official at Udhampur-based Northern Command told PTI.


----------



## billi

Areesh said:


> Yes Pakistan has sent all these thousands of protesters. You are a genius.



you dont understand what i am saying.
these kashmiris are just following instructions from pak based support

---------- Post added at 12:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 PM ----------




kugga said:


> Tibetan issue should be will of tibetans and balochi issue should be will of balochis......
> 
> but may be you don't know balcohistan issue is an issue of rights not freedom this comparison is not valid...



and kashmir issue is will of kashmiri.. so why do you want to interfere and send terrorist

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## kugga

billi said:


> wont be difficult to make them fight for freedom, if they have backing from across the border and get supplies of arms and ready terror outfits. seriuosly.



haan... Pakistan is providing stones to throw on security forces.... great Logic buddy come up with a solid reason or stop posting....


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## Agnostic_Indian

The freedom is not un conditional.when ever there is a threat against country the govt can restrict certain activities if it feels those as a risk or threat.


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## billi

kugga said:


> haan... Pakistan is providing stones to throw on security forces.... great Logic buddy come up with a solid reason or stop posting....



did i say Pak provided stones? there is enough of that in their heads.

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## Gene

What freedom????????????
kashmir is a free state of india.it has democracy, it has its own parliament,people here choose their own candidate freely.All these reflects their freedom !!!!!!

All people of kashmir feel they are free & live in a free state except some ill minded separatist group.These groups fear that they will soon be erased from people's thought as kashmir is now more peaceful.This is the only reason why these separatist groups never spare a chance to agitate peoples.

these separatist group will no longer can exist.these group will soon be discarded by the peoples as were discarded in the last election.the minor no. of people who follow them will soon come to the stream.

kashmir is a integral part of india & no force in the world can separate it from her.

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## Areesh

billi said:


> you dont understand what i am saying.
> these kashmiris are just following instructions from pak based support



And that too is most stupid thing I have ever heard in my life. Anyways you accept that Kashmiris follow what we say to them.


----------



## Ammyy

Gene said:


> *kashmir is a integral part of india & no force in the world can separate it *from her.

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## Ammyy

Gene said:


> What freedom????????????
> kashmir is a free state of india.it has democracy, it has its own parliament,people here choose their own candidate freely.All these reflects their freedom !!!!!!
> 
> All people of kashmir feel they are free & live in a free state except some ill minded separatist group.These groups fear that they will soon be erased from people's thought as kashmir is now more peaceful.This is the only reason why these separatist groups never spare a chance to agitate peoples.
> 
> these separatist group will no longer can exist.these group will soon be discarded by the peoples as were discarded in the last election.the minor no. of people who follow them will soon come to the stream.
> 
> kashmir is a integral part of india & no force in the world can separate it from her.



On the other hand people of Pak occupied kashmir have no rights 

Government they choose have no rights  thats a puppet government nothing else

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## billi

Areesh said:


> And that too is most stupid thing I have ever heard in my life. Anyways you accept that Kashmiris follow what we say to them.



not all kashmiris, only the pigs who come in a crowd and throw stones.


----------



## Areesh

billi said:


> not all kashmiris, only the pigs who come in a crowd and throw stones.



Humm. Nice joke.


----------



## Areesh

DRDO said:


> On the other hand people of Pak occupied kashmir have no rights
> 
> Government they choose have no rights  thats a puppet government nothing else



Yeah yeah live in your mini delusional world.


----------



## Areesh

roach said:


> This is going to be one of THOSE threads.....happy flaming/trolling, everyone!!



You can congratulate your Indian brothers for fulfilling this job.


----------



## archangel

Hate to hear these news. Why can't the Indian Army fight some religious crack heads without a casualty. I still don't get that even after so many equipments, this large spending on defence, joint trainings and everything else that is going on to help them improve, they can't just fight these militants without losing their lives.

Anyway, I salute the martyrs and prey to God for their spirits to rest in peace forever and also to support their families.


----------



## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> Yeah yeah live in your mini delusional world.



Instead of proving my point wrong ... why you start troll here 

But thats reality how can you prove that wrong

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## Areesh

DRDO said:


> Instead of proving my point wrong ... why you start troll here
> 
> But thats reality how can you prove that wrong



You aren't worthy enough to be prove something dear. First get rid of your BR forum mentality and then we consider you to be able to explain/prove something to you.


----------



## Arjun MBT

archangel said:


> Hate to hear these news. Why can't the Indian Army fight some religious crack heads without a casualty. I still don't get that even after so many equipments, this large spending on defence, joint trainings and everything else that is going on to help them improve, they can't just fight these militants without losing their lives.
> 
> Anyway, I salute the martyrs and prey to God for their spirits to rest in peace forever and also to support their families.



First of all, Soldiers have everything to Loose, militants have nothing to loose, For them everyone is a target, for the Army its not so, They have to Be clear who they target.... So when you are fighting Not only for You but also for others such instance do happen... You cannot blindly fire like the Militants...


----------



## indushek

U know this may sound like a conspiracy theory however i would like to say that, whenever there is a relative calm in the valley somehow these kind of incidents tend occur that too like a chain of events , this does mean that people who do not want peace there are working behind curtains. Some day the will have to answer for perpetuating such crimes, may not be to court of men but definitely to the god (the all knowing one).

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## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> You aren't worthy enough to be prove something dear. First get rid of your BR forum mentality and then we consider you to be able to explain/prove something to you.



Well i dnt need your approval to explain/prove any thing ... 

And m not a member of BR

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## Areesh

DRDO said:


> Well i dnt need your approval to explain/prove any thing ...
> 
> And m not a member of BR



You behave like one.


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## Decemberrocks

Dear Pakistani,
Our humble request to all of you is that please urge your Political parties, Govt. & Non Govt. establishment and state & Non state Actors or whosoever acting as Savior of Kashmiris or Indian Muslims to please stop all Anti-India activities under the disguise for Islamic Brotherhood. You have run enough of your Muslim propaganda in India.
Stop shedding Croc Tears for Indian citizen (Whether they are Muslims or kashmiris) as it's an insult of tears when it is shed by your Evil Eyes!!!

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## Gene

Areesh said:


> Yeah yeah live in your mini delusional world.



It is very funny to hear someone from a country, *where all of them think that all the countries of the world conspire against them......*

it reflects how much they are in illusion.

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## Areesh

Curfew widened in Kashmir after civilian deaths



> SRINAGAR, Tuesday 29 June 2010 (AFP) - Authorities in Indian-ruled Kashmir placed more towns under curfew on Tuesday as protests over the killing of eight residents spread through the insurgency-hit region.
> 
> Eight Kashmiri civilians have been killed in incidents involving Indian security forces in less than three weeks, with paramilitary troops struggling to contain violent protests against rule from New Delhi.
> 
> Sopore town, about 50 kilometres (30 miles) north of Kashmiri summer capital Srinagar, has been under curfew since Friday after two young men died when soldiers opened fire as protesters attacked their vehicle.
> 
> On Sunday and Monday three more protesters were killed -- including a nine-year-old boy -- in Sopore and the neighbouring town of Baramulla as troops tried to quell angry demonstrations.
> 
> "We have imposed a curfew in Baramulla town and in some parts of Srinagar," a police spokesman who declined to be named told AFP.
> 
> Separatist leaders urged people to observe a general strike for two days from Tuesday to denounce the killings. The strike closed shops, businesses and schools in Srinagar and other towns in Muslim-majority Kashmir valley.
> 
> The valley has seen a spike in protests since June 11, when a 17-year-old student died after being hit by a teargas shell fired by police during a demonstration in Srinagar.
> 
> *Tufail Matoo was not part of the protest and was carrying his school bag when he was hit, his family said.
> *
> Violence has risen in recent months in mainly Muslim Indian Kashmir, where two decades of rebellion against Indian rule have left thousands of people dead.
> 
> Fighting claimed the lives of three Indian soldiers and five suspected militants after a gunbattle along the Line of Control (LOC) border that splits Kashmir between India and Pakistan, the military said Tuesday.
> 
> "The fighting erupted late Monday when a group of militants tried to sneak into (Indian) Kashmir from across the LOC," army spokesman Vineet Sood told AFP.
> 
> Pakistan denies Indian allegations that it arms and funds rebels who have waged a deadly insurgency in Kashmir that has killed at least 47,000 people since 1989.



Curfew widened in Kashmir after civilian deaths


----------



## Areesh

> The situation in Jammu and Kashmir's Sopore town continues to be tense for the fourth day on Tuesday.
> 
> *Curfew has been imposed in Sopore while movement of civilians has been severely restricted in many parts of Srinagar.
> *
> Additional security forces have been sent to Sopore, Baramulla and downtown Srinagar Hurriyat Conference (M) Chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has given a call for civil disobedience, urging people to come out on streets to protest against the alleged firing and killing of civilians by the CRPF in which eight civilians have been killed in the three weeks.
> 
> *Meanwhile, several top separatist leaders including JKLF chairman Mohammad Yaseen Malik, National Front Chairman Nayeem Ahmad Khan and Muslim Khawateen Markaz Chief Yasmeen Raja were detained by police.
> *
> The state government appointed Mohammed Shafi Khan as Special Commissioner for Sopore and Pankaj Saxena as Special Inspector General to defuse the tense situation.
> 
> On Monday, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah had asked Union Home Minister P Chidambaram to help end violence in the state.
> 
> Expressing concern over civilians becoming victims of police action in the Kashmir Valley, Abdullah invited Chidambaram to visit the state.
> 
> Both Chidambaram and Abdullah agreed on the need to bring an immediate end to the cycle of violence.
> 
> Kashmir has recently seen a spurt of violence, as a result of which paramilitary forces have been compelled to use force against people partaking in anti-State activities. (ANI)



Kashmir violence: Protest continues in Sopore


----------



## mjnaushad

Areesh said:


> Kashmir violence: Protest continues in Sopore


Stop spreading propaganda...You bad bad bad poster. Everything is fine in IOK now stop trolling


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## karan.1970

3 cheers for the IA. Go Army.. RIP to the brave martyred soldiers. 

Here's to many more such encounters and a much better kill ratio for the Indian Army

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## Areesh

> Srinagar: Mobile services have been suspended in north Kashmir and SMS services have been blocked in the entire Valley, with the situation remaining tense on Tuesday morning. Sources said this has been done to stop rumour mongering in an already incendiary situation.
> 
> *In Sopore, the town worst hit by violent protests over civilian deaths allegedly in the use of force by CRPF against agitators, there is indefinite curfew since Friday and it would continue to be in place, sources say. Restrictions under Section 144, which prohibits assembly of more than four persons, are in place in and around Srinagar and Baramulla. Additional companies of the CRPF have been deployed in Sopore.*
> 
> *The tension in the north and central parts of the valley has spread to south Kashmir where curfew like restrictions have been imposed in Anantnag after one person was injured in firing by security forces.*
> 
> *Crowds assembled at Mattan bus stand in Anantnag on Tuesday morning to protest the killing of five youths in Sopore and Baramulla, in alleged firing by CRPF.
> *
> Police and paramilitary forces deployed in the town asked them to disperse but when they refused to budge, they fired tear gas shells and batons to disperse them. Protestors then pelted stones at security forces and in the ensuing clashes, one person was injured.
> 
> The J&K government has asked the Centre for help and said last evening that the Army could be called in if the situation was not brought under control soon. But there has been no Army deployment for riot or crowd control. Sources said the Army and Rashtriya Rifles would continue mobile patrolling for counter-insurgency as usual in Sopore, Baramulla and the surrounding areas.
> 
> Sources have told NDTV that the aim is to bring the situation under control today with the help of additional security forces.



J&K: Mobile services suspended, tension spreads to Anantnag


---------- Post added at 01:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:20 PM ----------




mjnaushad said:


> Stop spreading propaganda...You bad bad bad poster. Everything is fine in IOK now stop trolling



Actually I am a ISI agent.

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## Guynextdoor

blueoval79 said:


> On boil again...and will cool down soon.......with a fizzle


It's a good thing dude. After a long time under the purview of tough security forces, as we wind down our operation, it's good for the people to let off lots of (suppressed) steam. They'll feel more in control of their lives and feel conident that genuine grievances will be addressed. That's a long term antidote to all the bitterness that has come because of our toughness.

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## humblehobbes

Yet again! Another thread to the trolls...

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## syedtalha

*hey indians u dont talk about kashmir. IM A KASHMIRI, & I KNOW MORE THAN U WHAT HAPPENS HERE. All you know about kashmir is through 9' O clock news sitting at home.Kashmir isn't on the boil for no reason. If our women are raped day in and day out, small kids as young as 9 year olds are shot in the head(just yesterday, i saw with my own eyes shameless paramilitary forces using live ammunition on civilians) . and our basic right to determine our political future is withheald for the last 65 years, what else do you expect to happen. we are justified in taking help from any external agency, & if u have guts deal with pakistan, go and fight a war if india is really a superpower. we've had enough of india*


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## blueoval79

syedtalha said:


> *hey indians u dont talk about kashmir. IM A KASHMIRI, & I KNOW MORE THAN U WHAT HAPPENS HERE. All you know about kashmir is through 9' O clock news sitting at home.Kashmir isn't on the boil for no reason. If our women are raped day in and day out, small kids as young as 9 year olds are shot in the head(just yesterday, i saw with my own eyes shameless paramilitary forces using live ammunition on civilians) . and our basic right to determine our political future is withheald for the last 65 years, what else do you expect to happen. we are justified in taking help from any external agency, & if u have guts deal with pakistan, go and fight a war if india is really a superpower. we've had enough of india*



Bas kar beta.....rona band kar...everyone here knows that you are Pakistani hiding behind two flags....

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## Areesh

*Pak asks world to take notice of HR violations in Kashmir*



> Pakistan has criticised India for the continued protests being staged by local residents in the Kashmir valley which has resulted in violent clashes between security forces and protestors.
> 
> *At least eight people have died in the last two-weeks in violent clashes with the security forces.
> *
> Foreign Office spokesperson Abdul Basit said that Pakistan is concerned over the gross violation of human rights by the Indian security forces in the Kashmir valley.
> 
> *"We are concerned at the human rights situation in Jammu and Kashmir," The Daily Times quoted Basit, as saying.*
> 
> Basit also urged the international community to take notice of the issue.
> 
> On Monday, two more youths were killed in separate incidents in Baramulla and Sopore Districts.
> 
> Both persons were killed as security forces opened fire to disperse an angry mob, which pelted stones on a police party.
> 
> Sopore continues to remain tense for the fourth day after the administration imposed a curfew on Friday following the death of two youths in police firing.
> 
> Meanwhile, Hurriyat Conference leader Syed Ali Geelani has called for a shutdown in the valley till Wednesday.
> 
> The authorities have imposed undeclared curfew in old city of Srinagar fearing protests from separatists. (ANI)



Pak asks world to take notice of HR violations in Kashmir


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## Gene

syedtalha said:


> *hey indians u dont talk about kashmir. IM A KASHMIRI, & I KNOW MORE THAN U WHAT HAPPENS HERE. All you know about kashmir is through 9' O clock news sitting at home.Kashmir isn't on the boil for no reason. If our women are raped day in and day out, small kids as young as 9 year olds are shot in the head(just yesterday, i saw with my own eyes shameless paramilitary forces using live ammunition on civilians) . and our basic right to determine our political future is withheald for the last 65 years, what else do you expect to happen. we are justified in taking help from any external agency, & if u have guts deal with pakistan, go and fight a war if india is really a superpower. we've had enough of india*



Are you a pakistani or indian????????
I don't know, which part of kashmir you are from????????But i know that you don't know anything except making non-sense posts.

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## archangel

Arjun MBT said:


> First of all, Soldiers have everything to Loose, militants have nothing to loose, For them everyone is a target, for the Army its not so, They have to Be clear who they target.... So when you are fighting Not only for You but also for others such instance do happen... You cannot blindly fire like the Militants...




Ya I understand this fact buddy. But, it kind'a hurts when you listen to the fact that some foreign intruders with guns come into your land and kill some highly-trained soldiers who were trained over-time to handle such menace. 

But you are true about the fact that the soldiers cannot just hit anyone especially seeing the violence and riots that have started there due to such casualty of civilians. 
The worst fact here is that if a terrorist kills a person, then the people blame the police or the military. But even if a soldier dies killing a militant, then also they would support the militant. And if by mistake, a local civilian loses his life to the police or army firing in the gun battles, then the people just start rioting and all kinds of nonsense. So, at the end of the day, its really a very tough job for the armed force and the local police, which they have to execute, swiftly and cautiously everyday, risking their lives for the people who curse them.


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## Gene

Areesh said:


> *Pak asks world to take notice of HR violations in Kashmir*
> 
> 
> 
> world to take notice of HR violations in Kashmir[/URL]



No one will listen it !!!!! If the west is busy in anti-pakistan propaganda,then why they will listen to your plea?????

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## Areesh

*Tense Omar dials Delhi*




> *The Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) is turning out to be a bone in the flesh for the government of Jammu & Kashmir.*
> *On Sunday, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah had spoken to Home Minister P Chidambaram and expressed concern at the deaths of civilians at the hands of the central police organisation in the valley.*
> Eight persons died in Kashmir in police/paramilitary action in the past 15 days.
> While last week Abdullah had ordered a massive reshuffle in the police department following the deaths, the administration has no such powers when it comes to the central forces. *Hence he has sought New Delhi's help to bring an end "to the cycle of deaths"*.
> J&K Law Minister and senior National Conference leader Ali Muhammad Sagar told the media: *"New Delhi will have to listen to us if it has to protect its interests in Jammu and Kashmir. Five youth were killed in a series and it is not a good thing. We are not ready to tolerate human rights violations."*
> He said the CRPF had lost command and control and the issue must be looked into.
> "The CM, as head of the Unified Command Council, has given clear directions to the forces operating in Jammu and Kashmir to exercise restraint and protect human rights. All this (killing) is happening despite the directives. *They (CRPF) are working against the interests of country. It will have dangerous ramifications,"* Sagar said.
> "Only yesterday (Sunday) the chief minister ordered the constitution of a commission, headed by the State Human Rights Commission chairperson, to probe the killing of two civilians in Sopore last Friday."
> However, the state government had defended CRPF action on June 20, when Javed Ahmad Malla (19) died in Srinagar.
> Abdullah had called the protests of Malla and others who were attending the funeral of Rafiq Ahmad Bangroo "suicidal".
> Bangroo had died after allegedly being beaten up by the CRPF on June 12.
> "When you try to attack a vehicle with armed men, they will react in defence," he had told reporters.
> The CRPF refused to comment.
> "Our director general (Vikram Srivastava) held a meeting with the state government and assured help," said CRPF spokesperson (Kashmir) Prabhakar Tripathi.
> "Our role is defined and that's counter insurgency," he added.



Tense Omar dials Delhi


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## Arjun MBT

archangel said:


> Ya I understand this fact buddy. But, it kind'a hurts when you listen to the fact that some foreign intruders with guns come into your land and kill some highly-trained soldiers who were trained over-time to handle such menace.
> 
> But you are true about the fact that the soldiers cannot just hit anyone especially seeing the violence and riots that have started there due to such casualty of civilians.
> The worst fact here is that if a terrorist kills a person, then the people blame the police or the military. But even if a soldier dies killing a militant, then also they would support the militant. And if by mistake, a local civilian loses his life to the police or army firing in the gun battles, then the people just start rioting and all kinds of nonsense. So, at the end of the day, its really a very tough job for the armed force and the local police which they have to execute, swiftly and cautiously.



Yes..... Soldier cannot open fire as like the terrorist... Soldier cannot let a civilian die in a cross fire for purpose... Thats why you have to face the Bullet, But the militant can clear off any one In front Of him and engage, a Soldier cannot do so, He has to wait for his chance and Would be also forced to meet the challenge face to face, And Could also end Up in his Life...

Its depressing that We lost 3 brave Hearts... But also proud that They took 6 Lives before giving up theres.


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## M8R

No matter how much Indians bark here - The fact is all Pakistanis will support Kashmiris be it liberals, moderate or radicals.We will always support Kashmiris - We will never backstab them.


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## DeathGod

Its time we should penetrate Pak-occ-Kashmir and free it from these terrorists. I dont understand that why is India not acting pro-actively in this regard.(democratically and politically)

Why are we not preassurising Pakistan to give up its control of Kashmir by providing evidence of terrorists in their part of Kashmir. Even if UN doesnt act we have the capability to act on ourselves and seal the fate of Kashmir once and for all. 

Long have our brothers lost their lives just trying to defend an almost non-existent and god-forsaken border.I hope that we get rid of these camps which on a territory which is illegally occupied by Pakistan.I hope we make very good progress economically and leave Pakistan in the dust. Maybe when we will have more say in the matters of the world, will the Politicians have the will to dismantle the nest of scum.


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## M8R

DeathGod said:


> Its time we should penetrate Pak-occ-Kashmir and free it from these terrorists. I dont understand that why is India not acting pro-actively in this regard.(democratically and politically)
> 
> Why are we not preassurising Pakistan to give up its control of Kashmir by providing evidence of terrorists in their part of Kashmir. Even if UN doesnt act we have the capability to act on ourselves and seal the fate of Kashmir once and for all.
> 
> Long have our brothers lost their lives just trying to defend an almost non-existent and god-forsaken border.I hope that we get rid of these camps which on a territory which is illegally occupied by Pakistan.I hope we make very good progress economically and leave Pakistan in the dust. Maybe when we will have more say in the matters of the world, will the Politicians have the will to dismantle the nest of scum.


Good Luck, You'll Need It!


----------



## syedtalha

*Me too.. i'm kashmiri from IOK, Srinagar. 
As far as being " Kashmiri" is concerned, i believe Kashmiri is only those who live within Kashmir valley(which is called kashmir division administratively in IOK). Kashmir valley is entirely on the indian side of the border, and unfortunately whatever 'kashmir ' is in pakistan is not kashmir at all. You can see kashmir valley as a plain stretch of land in google earth, surrounded by mountains on all sides. Srinagar city is in the center of this valley, and it peripherals consist the outlying districts, baramullah, anantnag(islamabad), ganderbal, Kupwarah, pulwamah, Budgam. THe rest of the districts are somehow also kashmir, but ethnic kashmiris dont live there. Jammu and Kashmir as a country does not exist according to me, since we have nothing in common with the rest of the districts. So my political opinions regarding the kashmir issue, is acession to pakistan of Kashmir valley only, while india should be let to keep the rest of the erstwhile state. It serves pakistans interests well, since pakistan's main concern is water, which is almost entirely alleviated by Kashmir valley being part of pakistan. India also does not want a hostile polulation, which is mainly based in kashmir valley, there should be a simple peaceful barter of territory. *


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## cropta

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;962527 said:


> Good Luck.



Thanks, won't need it =] Allah is on our side


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## Areesh

DeathGod said:


> Its time we should penetrate Pak-occ-Kashmir and free it from these terrorists. I dont understand that why is India not acting pro-actively in this regard.(democratically and politically)
> 
> Why are we not preassurising Pakistan to give up its control of Kashmir by providing evidence of terrorists in their part of Kashmir. Even if UN doesnt act we have the capability to act on ourselves and seal the fate of Kashmir once and for all.
> 
> Long have our brothers lost their lives just trying to defend an almost non-existent and god-forsaken border.I hope that we get rid of these camps which on a territory which is illegally occupied by Pakistan.I hope we make very good progress economically and leave Pakistan in the dust. Maybe when we will have more say in the matters of the world, will the Politicians have the will to dismantle the nest of scum.



Good Luck. My best wishes are with you.


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## Mirza Jatt

^^^Support kashmiris..no issues...but without an intention of getting a share of our kashmir.

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## Areesh

*Violence spreads in Kashmir Valley; 13 injured*




> Fresh clashes on Tuesday broke out between locals protesting the killing of youths in alleged CRPF firing and security forces in parts of Srinagar, Baramulla and Anantnag districts, leaving 13 people injured.
> 
> With violence spreading to more places, curfew was imposed this morning in parts of Baramulla, Anantnag and seven police station areas of Srinagar as the situation remained tense in troubled Sopore in the wake of the protests.
> 
> In view of the violence, mobile services in north Kashmir and SMS service in the entire valley were blocked on the instructions of the state government.
> 
> With separatists giving fresh calls for strike, life remained crippled across Kashmir valley, including Srinagar, for the fifth consecutive day on Tuesday.
> 
> In Anantnag, 65 kms from here, locals assembled at a bus stand and protested against the killings. Paramilitary forces deployed in the town initially cane charged them but when they refused to budge, they opened fire resulting in injuries to three persons including a teenager identified as Irshiad Ahmad Bhat.



Violence spreads in Kashmir Valley; 13 injured


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## javaman

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;962518 said:


> No matter how much Indians bark here - The fact is all Pakistanis will support Kashmiris be it liberals, moderate or radicals.We will always support Kashmiris - We will never backstab them.



we all indians too support kashmir as an indian state,no matter wat the hell other says,and support

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## su-47

archangel said:


> Hate to hear these news. Why can't the Indian Army fight some religious crack heads without a casualty. I still don't get that even after so many equipments, this large spending on defence, joint trainings and everything else that is going on to help them improve, they can't just fight these militants without losing their lives.
> 
> Anyway, I salute the martyrs and prey to God for their spirits to rest in peace forever and also to support their families.



I completely agree with you brother. If you look at our defence spending, we spend so much on planes, tanks, ships etc. But our jawans are still poorly equipped compared to world standards. 

We are well prepared for a war we might fight someday, but ill-equipped for one we fight everyday! If we can spend so much on high-tech war machines, cant we spend a little more on the average soldier who risks his life everyday in Kashmir? Can't we prioritise the lives of our soldiers over high-tech equipment like 'smart' cluster-bombs? better bullet proof vests and communication equipment can really make a difference


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## cropta

su-47 said:


> I completely agree with you brother. If you look at our defence spending, we spend so much on planes, tanks, ships etc. But our jawans are still poorly equipped compared to world standards.
> 
> We are well prepared for a war we might fight someday, but ill-equipped for one we fight everyday! If we can spend so much on high-tech war machines, cant we spend a little more on the average soldier who risks his life everyday in Kashmir? Can't we prioritise the lives of our soldiers over high-tech equipment like 'smart' cluster-bombs? better bullet proof vests and communication equipment can really make a difference



No they don't, one missile worth $10000 will be far more useful than 100 soldiers with $1000 bullet proof vests.


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## syedtalha

Kashmir police are considered third grade citizens in kashmir. they face a social boycott form common kashmiris. what is the point of glorifying the persons who are despised by their own ppl. in kashmir the difinition of public friendly police is alien. we consider them part of occupation

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## syedtalha

blueoval79 said:


> Bas kar beta.....rona band kar...everyone here knows that you are Pakistani hiding behind two flags....




//shikaslada be ha chus kooshur... lanath vexya hindustanya. balay logukh kasheeri.//
you can come here to srinagar and veify my credentials. & regarding my indian flag, it symbolyses indian occupation of kashmir

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## blueoval79

syedtalha said:


> //shikaslada be ha chus kooshur... lanath vexya hindustanya. balay logukh kasheeri.//
> you can come here to srinagar and veify my credentials. & regarding my indian flag, it symbolyses indian occupation of kashmir



You know I am not going to waste my time going to verify a stupid credential ...so you can say whatever you want....the truth can be otherwise.

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## syedtalha

Gene said:


> Are you a pakistani or indian????????
> I don't know, which part of kashmir you are from????????But i know that you don't know anything except making non-sense posts.



I'm from "YOUR" part of kashmir, Indian kashmir.. ok
& u should have the basic capability to comprehend a simple post to figure out weather it makes any sense or not. Whatever is made up of meaningful english words, makes a sentence, and sentences make sence, it is upto the reader to make sense out of it.


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## syedtalha

blueoval79 said:


> You know I am not going to waste my time going to verify a stupid credential ...so you can say whatever you want....the truth can be otherwise.



THe same applies to you, you can be an overzelous indian national, somwhere deep in naxal infested central india, commenting on posts by a kashmiri on a pakistani defence forum, and trying to justify broad daylight lyinchings by indian security forces in kashmir


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## Raghu

syedtalha said:


> I'm from "YOUR" part of kashmir, Indian kashmir.. ok
> & u should have the basic capability to comprehend a simple post to figure out weather it makes any sense or not. Whatever is made up of meaningful english words, makes a sentence, and sentences make sence, it is upto the reader to make sense out of it.



Tell me whats the name of leader of opposition in J&K assembly??


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## syedtalha

Raghu said:


> Tell me whats the name of leader of opposition in J&K assembly??



Mehbooba Mufti, daughter of Mufti Sayyed

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## Areesh

*Angry Kashmir cracks under tension*




> *Kashmir is on the boil again. Angry and wounded, the people of Kashmir have used stones and sticks to take out their bitterness on the CRPF forces stationed in the valley. *The latest wave of unrest started on June 11 when a 17-year old student died after being hit by a teargas shell fired by police during a demonstration in Srinagar. For security reasons, the government has suspended mobile phone services in north Kashmir for the second day.



















Angry Kashmir cracks under tension


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## syedtalha

Raghu said:


> Tell me whats the name of leader of opposition in J&K assembly??



this is a stupidly easy question... come up with something which only a true kashmiri can know... like where is the best seekh tuje in srinagar


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## blueoval79

syedtalha said:


> THe same applies to you, you can be an overzelous indian national, somwhere deep in naxal infested central india, commenting on posts by a kashmiri on a pakistani defence forum, and trying to justify broad daylight lyinchings by indian security forces in kashmir



Am I defending anything here.....I don't think so.... I am in India ....and may be I am in some Naxal infested area as claimed by you.....

As regards to the so called kashmiri drama..that has been going on for decades......I think Government of India should have crushed the terrorist movement just like the way it crushed Terrorist Movement in Punjab..just like the way LTTE was crushed by Sri Lankan Governments.

But then again ...its h=just a matter of time....because the masters from across the borders are losing faith in the so called Jihadi fighters....so they are creating a new war....the great water war...against India ...soon you will see Kashmir not even a part of the discussion ....so it will be all water... water everywhere .....

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## Raghu

syedtalha said:


> Mehbooba Mufti, daughter of Mufti Sayyed



Thank u ...i think we should free u.

Apply for a visa to Pakistan.

And don't get too zealous in looking for freedom...you may end up freeing ur soul.

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## syedtalha

Areesh said:


> *Angry Kashmir cracks under tension*
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Angry Kashmir cracks under tension



wow.... brave kashmiri beating a coward..

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## blueoval79

syedtalha said:


> wow.... brave kashmiri beating a coward..



Next......the so called protesters land up in jail.....and cops beat the hell out of them. .. LOL


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## Raghu

syedtalha said:


> this is a stupidly easy question... come up with something which only a true kashmiri can know... like where is the best seekh tuje in srinagar



true kashmiri ??U mean a true kashmiri muslim.

I can also ask how they drove out 3 lakhs Kashmiri Pundits from Kashmir valley because they are Hindus ,i'm sure a true kashmiri muslim would know.


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## syedtalha

Raghu said:


> Thank u ...i think we should free u.
> 
> Apply for a visa to Pakistan.
> 
> And don't get too zealous in looking for freedom...you may end up freeing ur soul.





All u can do is keep making these bad attempts at sarcastic humor. you can't even make good of a bad joke.


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## syedtalha

blueoval79 said:


> Next......the so called protesters land up in jail.....and cops beat the hell out of them. .. LOL



fair enough. what else do we expect from a mercenary anti people police.


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## blueoval79

syedtalha said:


> fair enough. what else do we expect from a mercenary anti people police.



If you burn down public property...and attack an government official....thats the treatment you deserve.

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## Raghu

syedtalha said:


> wow.... brave kashmiri beating a coward..



No not exactly, he is hitting a poor kashmiri police who is also most likely *another kashmir muslim*, who is showing utmost restrain due to govt orders.

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## syedtalha

Raghu said:


> No not exactly, he is hitting a poor kashmiri police who is also most likely another kashmir muslim.



nobody gives a damn.. KP officers are socially boycotted in kashmir. & being muslim and a police officer in kashmir is a contradiction


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## Raghu

Areesh said:


> *Angry Kashmir cracks under tension*
> 
> 
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> 
> http://news.in.msn.com/gallery.aspx?cp-documentid=4088407



They are local Kashmir police, not from CRPF .


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## indushek

Raghu said:


> No not exactly, he is hitting a poor kashmiri police who is also most likely *another kashmir muslim*, who is showing utmost restrain due to govt orders.



Don't worry my friend this person whoever is making these false pretences is a coward who cannot speak the truth. However if he really is a kashmiri then our security forces can take care of such persons in whatever way is required if u know what i mean.


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## syedtalha

blueoval79 said:


> If you burn down public property...and attack an government official....thats the treatment you deserve.



If you deliberately fire live ammo on civilians, YOUR soldiers DESERVE WORSE than this. & these youth are justified in beating, i would not remorse if he was killed, killers deserve death

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## Raghu

syedtalha said:


> nobody gives a damn.. KP officers are socially boycotted in kashmir. & being muslim and a police officer in kashmir is a contradiction



Yaa, for u being muslim and a supporter jamat i islami is the norm.


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## blueoval79

syedtalha said:


> nobody gives a damn.. KP officers are socially boycotted in kashmir. & being muslim and a police officer in kashmir is a contradiction



And yet there a re thousands flocking in to join JK police.

Overwhelming response to police recruitment drive in Kashmir

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## syedtalha

indushek said:


> However if he really is a kashmiri then our security forces can take care of such persons in whatever way is required if u know what i mean.



I'M not good at deciphering veiled references... are u trying to warn me of consequences??


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## syedtalha

blueoval79 said:


> And yet there a re thousands flocking in to join JK police.
> 
> Overwhelming response to police recruitment drive in Kashmir




"OVERWHELMING".. O yeah.. last time they did it, Kashmir police was pathetically short on manpower. why do they require CRPF to assist??


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## Raghu

syedtalha said:


> If you deliberately fire live ammo on civilians, YOUR soldiers DESERVE WORSE than this. & these youth are justified in beating, i would not remorse if he was killed, killers deserve death




Total nonsese...nobody fired live ammon at anyone.

If thats the case 100s would have dead ,since the mob was big.

Only tear gas and rubber bullets were used.

Don't blame the deaths on police or CRPF that too on false grounds motivated by separatist elements.

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## kugga

Now what my brothers from India it's not that Pakistan is sending persons like talha .... freedom is their birth right and they should be given that... just like you praise bhagat singh I praise these Kashmiri freedom fighters and those who join police are cowards as those were who joined british police....


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## ice_man

*KASHMIR is neither PAKISTANI NOR INDIAN!!! 

KASHMIR IS FOR THE KASHMIRIS!!! so give them there rightful freedom!*

what is it that both sides want??? LAND or its people????

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## javaman

ice_man said:


> *KASHMIR is neither PAKISTANI NOR INDIAN!!!
> 
> KASHMIR IS FOR THE KASHMIRIS!!! so give them there rightful freedom!*
> 
> what is it that both sides want??? LAND or its people????



wat abt ur occupied kashmir


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## Raghu

syedtalha said:


> "OVERWHELMING".. O yeah.. last time they did it, Kashmir police was pathetically short on manpower. why do they require CRPF to assist??



Becasue there too many pakistani trained terrroists crossing LOC and hiding inside the houses belonging to people like u.


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## syedtalha

Raghu said:


> Total nonsese...nobody fired live ammon at anyone.
> 
> If thats the case 100s would have dead ,since the mob was big.
> 
> Only tear gas and rubber bullets were used.
> 
> Don't blame the deaths on police or CRPF that too on false grounds motivated by separatist elements.




EXCUSE ME.....???
Did u just assume it, THEY FIRED LIVE AMMONUTION. TURN ON YOUR TV. even indian news channels reported it, i can post the picture of the cop firing from SLR, standard issue CRPF, used in counterinsurgency operations. it was a repeat(among many sequels in kashmir) of jhalianawalabahg massacare


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## Raghu

ice_man said:


> *KASHMIR is neither PAKISTANI NOR INDIAN!!!
> 
> KASHMIR IS FOR THE KASHMIRIS!!! so give them there rightful freedom!*
> 
> what is it that both sides want??? LAND or its people????



*Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris as well as every other indian.*

Anybody got problems with that , we are ready to give him freedom u know what i mean.

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## indushek

syedtalha said:


> I'M not good at deciphering veiled references... are u trying to warn me of consequences??



U very well know what i mean why to ask for it


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## javaman

kugga said:


> Now what my brothers from India it's not that Pakistan is sending persons like talha .... freedom is their birth right and they should be given that... just like you praise bhagat singh I praise these Kashmiri freedom fighters and those who join police are cowards as those were who joined british police....



what pak sends ,whole world knows.those 6 millitants not came frm heaven,not frm china border.
also the stone are thrown on the police by the people who are funded 4 this even 200 rs per day.they need money for what ever they do.
although who provides weapons like ak-47,grenades to kashmiri militants if they are kashmiri,surely india will not provide them,kashmiris dont have factory for weapons building.now u shud tell what pak is sending and not sending.

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## kugga

syedtalha said:


> EXCUSE ME.....???
> Did u just assume it, THEY FIRED LIVE AMMONUTION. TURN ON YOUR TV. even indian news channels reported it, i can post the picture of the cop firing from SLR, standard issue CRPF, used in counterinsurgency operations. it was a repeat(among many sequels in kashmir) of jhalianawalabahg massacare



but bro. news channels here in paksitan are reporting with reference to indian news agencies that they fired rubber bullets and tear gas shells....

this brutality should end 

---------- Post added at 03:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:23 PM ----------




Raghu said:


> Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris as well as every other indian.
> 
> *Anybody got problems with that , we are ready to give him freedom u know what i mean.*



this shows your sick mentality....


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## Raghu

syedtalha said:


> EXCUSE ME.....???
> Did u just assume it, THEY FIRED LIVE AMMONUTION. TURN ON YOUR TV. even indian news channels reported it, i can post the picture of the cop firing from SLR, standard issue CRPF, used in counterinsurgency operations. it was a repeat(among many sequels in kashmir) of jhalianawalabahg massacare



Oh stop this BS...*they(kashmir police) were firing in the air to disperse the crowd.*

If they were directed at the protesters, then body counting would've gone all through the day.

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## Areesh

Areesh said:


> *Angry Kashmir cracks under tension*
> 
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> Angry Kashmir cracks under tension



Peechai chittar mar is kai peechai chittar mar.


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## blueoval79

syedtalha said:


> "OVERWHELMING".. O yeah.. last time they did it, Kashmir police was pathetically short on manpower. why do they require CRPF to assist??



CRPF my friend is only sent in if there ins a need for additional manpower.....and where goon and terrorists are running amok killing people....and going Kaboom and rattattattattat ..every now and then.

That has nothing to do with shortage of police......

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## indushek

kugga said:


> Now what my brothers from India it's not that Pakistan is sending persons like talha .... freedom is their birth right and they should be given that... just like you praise bhagat singh I praise these Kashmiri freedom fighters and those who join police are cowards as those were who joined british police....



U know i think this Mr.Talha is an imposter posing as a kashmiri , i have no doubt on that, but u taking advantage of this and baiting us saying this and that is pathetic.


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## kugga

javaman said:


> what pak sends ,whole world knows.those 6 millitants not came frm heaven,not frm china border.
> also the stone are thrown on the police by the people who are funded 4 this even 200 rs per day.they need money for what ever they do.
> although who provides weapons like ak-47,grenades to kashmiri militants if they are kashmiri,surely india will not provide them,kashmiris dont have factory for weapons building.now u shud tell what pak is sending and not sending.



stop this blame game buddy Paksitan can blame India in the same way in case of TTP and BLA....
and in current situation there are no AK-47 and such things are bieng used by Kashmiris but may be you can say that those stones were provided by Pakistan...


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## syedtalha

Raghu said:


> Becasue there too many pakistani trained terrroists crossing LOC and hiding inside the houses belonging to people like u.



according to general deepak kapoor ex army chief whose term ended last month, there are 200 active militants in kashmir.. NOW DONT YOU SOUND LIKE A FOOL SAYING THERE ARE TOO MANY OF THEM..


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## Raghu

kugga said:


> but bro. news channels here in paksitan are reporting with reference to indian news agencies that they fired rubber bullets and tear gas shells....
> 
> this brutality should end
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:23 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> this shows your sick mentality....



*Do u deal with insurgents any differently in Pakistan *???

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## syedtalha

indushek said:


> U know i think this Mr.Talha is an imposter posing as a kashmiri , i have no doubt on that, but u taking advantage of this and baiting us saying this and that is pathetic.



just about what do you expect me to do to prove i'm not an impostor....i think u r being pathetic by shooting arrows in the air. how the hell can u simply assume i'm pretending to be a kashmiri


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## Raghu

syedtalha said:


> according to general deepak kapoor ex army chief whose term ended last month, there are 200 active militants in kashmir.. NOW DONT YOU SOUND LIKE A FOOL SAYING THERE ARE TOO MANY OF THEM..



U think 200 is a small number.
It took only 10 terrorists to kill 200 and hold the mumbai city for ransom.


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## javaman

kugga said:


> stop this blame game buddy Paksitan can blame India in the same way in case of TTP and BLA....
> and in current situation there are no AK-47 and such things are bieng used by Kashmiris but may be you can say that those stones were provided by Pakistan...



1) i was talking abt the 6 militants who came yesterday and got killed
2) read my post again ,they are paid for stone throwing

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## kugga

Raghu said:


> *Do u deal with insurgents any differently in Pakistan *???



every one who speaks against India is not an insurgent brother.... 

we can tolerate criticism and you can see it in this forum as well there are many Paksitanis who sometimes even speak against Paksistan but they are not declared insurgents.....

BTW this Kashmiri guy is not Indian Obviously he's Kashmiri and Kashmir is not India so he may insurgent for you in this case...


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## javaman

kugga said:


> every one who speaks against India is not an insurgent brother....
> 
> we can tolerate criticism and you can see it in this forum as well there are many Paksitanis who sometimes even speak against Paksistan but they are not declared insurgents.....
> 
> BTW this Kashmiri guy is not Indian Obviously he's Kashmiri and Kashmir is not India so he may insurgent for you in this case...



kashmir is an indian state,whatever he is saying ,he is free to say.as u were telling there are many pak guys who speak against pak

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## syedtalha

Raghu said:


> U think 200 is a small number.
> It took only 10 terrorists to kill 200 and hold the mumbai city for ransom.



From this i can infer that you have absolutely no real knowledge of asymmetric guerrilla warfare. There is hell of a difference between a hostage taking terrorist operation in a mainland metropolis and a modern day insurgency (did u know, the entire Rashtriya Rifles CI Grid is deployed in kashmir, has been so since 1992, when militancy was at its peak, probably 25000 kashmiri + pakistani armed insurgents, since then the number of troops has only increased, and militants only decreased, with the exception of kargil )


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## kugga

javaman said:


> kashmir is an indian state,whatever he is saying ,he is free to say.as u were telling there are many pak guys who speak against pak



but we don't kill them after labeling them insurgents....


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## EgO Boy

These indian's r lucky, that Pakistan is too bizzy on western front for thirty year's, how!!!

In the 80's Afghan liberation war 10year's gone.
Than 10year's of american sponsord democracy held us back.
Than 9/11 happened again Pak army engaged in Afghan clean up, so just wait for those jahadis to get free from there.

Than these indian's state terrorist's will know what BOILING word mean's.


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## kugga

syedtalha said:


> From this i can infer that you have absolutely no real knowledge of asymmetric guerrilla warfare. There is hell of a difference between a hostage taking terrorist operation in a mainland metropolis and a modern day insurgency (did u know, the entire Rashtriya Rifles CI Grid is deployed in kashmir, has been so since 1992, when militancy was at its peak, probably 25000 kashmiri + pakistani armed insurgents, since then the number of troops has only increased, and militants only decreased, with the exception of kargil )



after hearing this point of view I m kind of supportive of armed struggle even if it's with the help of Pakistani insurgents this occupation should end...


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## blueoval79

syedtalha said:


> From this i can infer that you have absolutely no real knowledge of asymmetric guerrilla warfare. There is hell of a difference between a hostage taking terrorist operation in a mainland metropolis and a modern day insurgency (did u know, the entire Rashtriya Rifles CI Grid is deployed in kashmir, has been so since 1992, when militancy was at its peak, probably 25000 kashmiri + pakistani armed insurgents, *since then the number of troops has only increased, and militants only decreased,* with the exception of kargil )



There you have it......more troops mean less terrorists...and less kabooms ....and less civilian fatalities......there is some collateral damage though.

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## Arjun MBT

EgO Boy said:


> These indian's r lucky, that Pakistan is too bizzy on western front for thirty year's, how!!!



What difference would it make?

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## syedtalha

javaman said:


> 1) i was talking abt the 6 militants who came yesterday and got killed
> 2) read my post again ,they are paid for stone throwing



*IT IS AN ABSOLUTE SHAME ON THE SECOND LARGEST ARMY IN THE WORLD TO MURDER A 9 YEAR OLD KID WHO SIMPLY WAS TAKING PART IN THE FUNERAL PROCESSION OF A YOUTH KILLED EARLIER.... ABSOLUTE SHAME. YOU SHOULD HANG UR HEAD IN SHAME.*


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## blueoval79

kugga said:


> after hearing this point of view I m kind of supportive of armed struggle even if it's with the help of Pakistani insurgents this occupation should end...



Well Pakistan has been trying this for last 6 decades ...and you know the result.....

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## blueoval79

syedtalha said:


> *IT IS AN ABSOLUTE SHAME ON THE SECOND LARGEST ARMY IN THE WORLD TO MURDER A 9 YEAR OLD KID WHO SIMPLY WAS TAKING PART IN THE FUNERAL PROCESSION OF A YOUTH KILLED EARLIER.... ABSOLUTE SHAME. YOU SHOULD HANG UR HEAD IN SHAME.*


It wasn't a funeral procession only......people carrying sticks ...stones...attacked police...and the retaliated ...though its sad that the poor kid lost his life......


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## kugga

blueoval79 said:


> Well Pakistan has been trying this for last 6 decades ...and you know the result.....



but still we cannot let brutality and state terrorism go on like this... it's really a shame for India...


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## syedtalha

blueoval79 said:


> There you have it......more troops mean less terrorists...and less kabooms ....and less civilian fatalities......there is some collateral damage though.



i find it rather hard to understand your self-assumptous logic.


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## blueoval79

kugga said:


> but still we cannot let brutality and state terrorism go on like this... it's really a shame for India...



Yes we Indians are shameless creatures when it comes to keeping our national integrity intact... There is not state terrorism gong on....its a retaliation to a foreign funded insurgency.....and there is some collateral damage for sure.

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## Arjun MBT

syedtalha said:


> *IT IS AN ABSOLUTE SHAME ON THE SECOND LARGEST ARMY IN THE WORLD TO MURDER A 9 YEAR OLD KID WHO SIMPLY WAS TAKING PART IN THE FUNERAL PROCESSION OF A YOUTH KILLED EARLIER.... ABSOLUTE SHAME. YOU SHOULD HANG UR HEAD IN SHAME.*



*And No Shame on the Protesters Who Killed A 11 Day Old baby, Which was Just sitting on His mothers Lap, and Travelling in bus, these stone Pelters Threw stone at him and Killed him.... According to you that is fine, Because Those are Stone Pelters who killed the baby??*


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## blueoval79

syedtalha said:


> i find it rather hard to understand your self-assumptous logic.



Well you said in your post...the number of terrorists went down as number of troops increased over the years....

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## kugga

blueoval79 said:


> *Yes we Indians are shameless creatures when it comes to keeping our national integrity intact.*.. There is not state terrorism gong on....its a retaliation to a foreign funded insurgency.....and there is some collateral damage for sure.



So that's why you killed so many muslims at the time of partition?? and still killing them coz they want freedom from you ??


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## Ahmad

There is only one solution to Kashmir, both pakistan and india let kashmir go free from both sides, kashmiries form another independant country called greater kashmir. otherwise this circle of mistrust and hostility go forever and draining bilions and bilions of dollors from both sides every year and prevent the 2 states from the actual work of progressive in these 2 countries. i think kashmir is brining more damage to these states in the long run than any benefit.


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## syedtalha

*Sick sadist indian CRPF troops beating cricket playing kids.. do you call this professionalism from the 2nd largest army in the world. BRAVE SOLDIERS OF INDIAN REPUBLIC FACING THE MOST DREADED TERRORISTS IN THE WORLD, CRICKET PLAYING KIDS......SO MUCH FOR YOUR NUCLEAR WEAPONS. Do a rethink, r u still proud of your armed forces???. *


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## blueoval79

kugga said:


> So that's why you killed so many muslims at the time of partition?? and still killing them coz they want freedom from you ??



The first train full of dead bodies came from Pakistan and not India...... Indians just retaliated in the way they thought they should......

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## syedtalha

Arjun MBT said:


> *And No Shame on the Protesters Who Killed A 11 Day Old baby, Which was Just sitting on His mothers Lap, and Travelling in bus, these stone Pelters Threw stone at him and Killed him.... According to you that is fine, Because Those are Stone Pelters who killed the baby??*



Again u r assuming something which never happened. THe infant was killed due to pneumonia. The autospy latter revealed that it was a coincidence that the kid died then, since the parents were taking him to hospital already. The stone pelters latter let the parents move freely when they were moving through an area where protest was going on


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## syedtalha

9 YEAR OLD KID KILLED... when he was taking part in the funeral procession of his relative killed earlier. I dont think you can ever justify that. Tell your conspiracy theories to his parents. 

Times of "INDIA"
an indian ultra nationalist newspaper reported this:
Kid, youth killed in CRPF firing, Kashmir on boil - India - The Times of India


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## Arjun MBT

syedtalha said:


> Again u r assuming something which never happened. THe infant was killed due to pneumonia. The autospy latter revealed that it was a coincidence that the kid died then, since the parents were taking him to hospital already. The stone pelters latter let the parents move freely when they were moving through an area where protest was going on



wow, then all the protestors die because of diarrhea , Come on dont be so Stupid... That Infant was Murdered By those whom U support, U r free to justify it

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## blueoval79

syedtalha said:


> Again u r assuming something which never happened. THe infant was killed due to pneumonia. The autospy latter revealed that it was a coincidence that the kid died then, since the parents were taking him to hospital already. The stone pelters latter let the parents move freely when they were moving through an area where protest was going on



Ahhh....so everything that is done by so called protesters is a assumption...and everything and anything done by police in order to save public property is an atrocity.....what a logic....and a skewed yardstick .

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## kugga

blueoval79 said:


> The first train full of dead bodies came from Pakistan and not India...... Indians just retaliated in the way they thought they should......



So you have your own version of history of partition as we have our own...


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## syedtalha

Arjun MBT said:


> wow, then all the protestors die because of diarrhea , Come on dont be so Stupid... That Infant was Murdered By those whom U support, U r free to justify it



Why was he being taken to hospital then???? did the stone pelters have an elobrate ambush for that 11 day old kid then??? The whole baramullah town can testify to what and who killed the boy. The infant was in serious condition, and due to mishandling by the mother, he lost his life. it was just a coincidence that stone pelting was going on in the same ares. nor did stone pelters have any damn intention to murder infants, as if it served some sinister purpose.


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## blueoval79

syedtalha said:


> YouTube - Kashmir - Attrocities of Indian Troops
> *Sick sadist indian CRPF troops beating cricket playing kids.. do you call this professionalism from the 2nd largest army in the world. BRAVE SOLDIERS OF INDIAN REPUBLIC FACING THE MOST DREADED TERRORISTS IN THE WORLD, CRICKET PLAYING KIDS......SO MUCH FOR YOUR NUCLEAR WEAPONS. Do a rethink, r u still proud of your armed forces???. *


Yes....Yes.... I have seen this video...and now would you also like to tell the world that these kids were playing cricket on a day a curfew was in place and the cops were asking them to go home...and when they don't listen ...they got sticks wielded at them..... 

People just love presenting one side of the story.


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## blueoval79

syedtalha said:


> Why was he being taken to hospital then???? did the stone pelters have an elobrate ambush for that 11 day old kid then??? The whole baramullah town can testify to what and who killed the boy. The infant was in serious condition, and due to mishandling by the mother, he lost his life. it was just a coincidence that stone pelting was going on in the same ares. nor did stone pelters have any damn intention to murder infants, as if it served some sinister purpose.




So now ...a mother is responsible for murder of her child.....The great standards of so called protesters...cum stone pelter.

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## Arjun MBT

syedtalha said:


> Why was he being taken to hospital then???? did the stone pelters have an elobrate ambush for that 11 day old kid then??? The whole baramullah town can testify to what and who killed the boy. The infant was in serious condition, and due to mishandling by the mother, he lost his life. it was just a coincidence that stone pelting was going on in the same ares. nor did stone pelters have any damn intention to murder infants, as if it served some sinister purpose.



even Our Ministers are running here and there to find solution and figure out the problem, when ever a Protester is Killed, So In that case, its applicable for us all... Ok???

And All the protestors were killed because of Mis handling of there mothers,If they would have Beaten these Young lads they wouldnt have been Pelting stones On CRPF or K&K police and Getting themselves Injured seriously.... Let me follow U


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## kugga

blueoval79 said:


> Yes....Yes.... I have seen this video...and now would you also like to tell the world that these kids were playing cricket on a day a curfew was in place and the cops were asking them to go home...and when they don't listen ...they got sticks wielded at them.....
> 
> People just love presenting one side of the story.



Come on Kids are kids if they don't listen to you that does not mean you start beating them with sticks.... its absolute brutality

now please don't tell me that those kids were helping the insurgents by playing cricket


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## syedtalha

blueoval79 said:


> these kids were playing cricket on a day a curfew was in place and the cops were asking them to go home...and when they don't listen ...they got sticks wielded at them.....



am i getting the impression that you are trying to defend your troops beating kids playing cricket because of some weird reason.... how shameless of you. plastic nationalism does weird things to one's sense of morality

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## blueoval79

kugga said:


> Come on Kids are kids if they don't listen to you that does not mean you start beating them with sticks.... its absolute brutality



Well here i am not justifying the act of policemen......all I want to say is that people have a habbit of painting everything as atrocity.....

Tell me ...you are a cop....there is a crowd...that has stones and starts throwing them at you.. you have a gun......would you not use that gun to protect your life....

I mean do only protesters have aright to live ...what about the cop.



> now please don't tell me that those kids were helping the insurgents by playing cricket


I know it is sad ...but again I am not justifying cops...I am against using anything and everything as atrocity ...and claim that we were innicent ...cops are the ones who are at fault...


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## blueoval79

syedtalha said:


> am i getting the impression that you are trying to defend your troops beating kids playing cricket because of some weird reason.... how shameless of you.


As is said I am a bloody shameless creature....when it comes to law and order.....there is a curfew and you don't obey it...you get similar treatment everywhere....in every part of the world.




> plastic nationalism does weird things to one's sense of morality



No morale is bigger than my country and its integrity.....

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## kugga

blueoval79 said:


> Well here i am not justifying the act of policemen......all I want to say is that people have a habbit of painting everything as atrocity.....
> 
> Tell me ...you are a cop....there is a crowd...that has stones and starts throwing them at you.. you have a gun......would you not use that gun to protect your life....
> 
> I mean do only protesters have aright to live ...what about the cop.
> 
> 
> I know it is sad ...but again I am not justifying cops...I am against using anything and everything as atrocity ...and claim that we were innicent ...cops are the ones who are at fault...



you are still unable to understand the mentality of protesters for them indian police or security forces are invaders and throwing stones at them is bravery as appreciate the bombing done by bhagat singh...... may be now you understand wat's going on there....

Open your eyes and see it ....


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## Ammyy

blueoval79 said:


> As is said I am a bloody shameless creature....when it comes to law and order.....there is a curfew and you don't obey it...you get similar treatment everywhere....in every part of the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No morale is bigger than my country and its integrity.....



And reason of this curfew is terrorist that came from Pakistan .
What a shame for Pakistan

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## blueoval79

kugga said:


> you are still unable to understand the mentality of protesters for them indian police or security forces are invaders and throwing stones at them is bravery as appreciate the bombing done by bhagat singh...... may be now you understand wat's going on there....
> 
> Open your eyes and see it ....



IF they feel that they are brave ..then why cry when some of them get hurt in retaliation.......its a give and take ...the throw stones.....in return they get bullets.....the law and order is above all...it has to be instated at whatever price ....


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## kugga

blueoval79 said:


> IF they feel that they are brave ..then why cry when some of them get hurt in retaliation.......its a give and take ...the throw stones.....in return they get bullets.....the law and order is above all...it has to be instated at whatever price ....



For them you are invader but for you they are citizens of india and they must be treated like that otherwise accept the reality that you are invader.... that's they and everyone else cry


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## Arjun MBT

kugga said:


> For them you are invader but for you they are citizens of india and they must be treated like that otherwise accept the reality that you are invader.... that's they and everyone else cry



These things happen in kerala, karnataka, andhra and every part of India, police will try to bring law in the region by any means if they see its going out of there hands....Why I myself have got beating when I was an RSS supporter in my college days, that dosent mean I hate India

So easy bro....


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## blueoval79

kugga said:


> For them you are invader but for you they are citizens of india and they must be treated like that otherwise accept the reality that you are invader.... that's they and everyone else cry



Well ...law is equal for every citizen of India ......if one obays the law...he has no problem in his life....

The protesters in Delhi...if they turn rioters are treated no different to the ones in Kashmir.


We Indians don't care what others think of us....we only think of how to move forward.....History is for dead bodies....Today's Indians live in present and work hard for future.

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## Hulk

syedtalha said:


> am i getting the impression that you are trying to defend your troops beating kids playing cricket because of some weird reason.... how shameless of you. plastic nationalism does weird things to one's sense of morality



Hi Syedtalha,
If you are Kashmiri from Indian side then I am glad to meet you. I am not denying there will be some genuine grievances from Kashmiri's. I however want to talk to you to understand the situation, hope I can get my answers. I am serious in discussion without any prejudice. Can you help me answer these questions.

1) Why do Kashmiri's start stone pelting without much of reason, example when Amarnath land was temporary given to Hindus what was the reason you started stone pelting? Are you guys so religiously blind?

2) Do you guys think that when you are pelting stones it can hurt the people on duty, are they not humans? If they feel danger will they not act? If you want to protest do you not know any peaceful means?

3) Also understand that in police firing people are killed in other parts on India too, remember multiple such instances in Rajeshtan and Haryana. So nothing uncommon, when you make situation violent such things are unavoidable.

The formula of peace in Kashmir is simple.
1) Stop supporting terrorist, violence will go down.
2) Stop aggressive protest with stone pelting, they often lead to innocent people dead. So there is death because of these protesters.

If no violence in Kashmir Army/CRPF will move out, peace will come. So its up to you to get the peace.

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## rohailmalhi

DRDO said:


> And reason of this curfew is terrorist that came from Pakistan .
> What a shame for Pakistan



yar 200 freedom fighters have make whole of ur army hajra . 
oh sorry i forgot that just 10 young boys can take mumbai hostage for 3 days thn these 200 mens are more than enough for Indian Army.

i think thn these terrorists are more trained than ur army men. so y dont u get sum training from the captured freedom figthers

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## kugga

rohailmalhi said:


> yar 200 freedom fighters have make whole of ur army hajra .
> oh sorry i forgot that just 10 young boys can take mumbai hostage for 3 days thn these 200 mens are more than enough for Indian Army.
> 
> i think thn these terrorists are more trained than ur army men. *so y dont u get sum training from the captured freedom figthers*


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## Ammyy

rohailmalhi said:


> yar 200 freedom fighters have make whole of ur army hajra .
> oh sorry i forgot that just 10 young boys can take mumbai hostage for 3 days thn these 200 mens are more than enough for Indian Army.
> 
> i think thn these terrorists are more trained than ur army men. so y dont u get sum training from the captured freedom figthers



Y*es really we need to learn from Pakistan that they cant even except dead bodies of their freedom fighter. 

Lets forget about terrorist bodies Pakistan not even except bodies of their soldiers in Kargil War ....... U forget that*

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## Arjun MBT

rohailmalhi said:


> yar 200 freedom fighters have make whole of ur army hajra .
> oh sorry i forgot that just 10 young boys can take mumbai hostage for 3 days thn these 200 mens are more than enough for Indian Army.
> 
> i think thn these terrorists are more trained than ur army men. so y dont u get sum training from the captured freedom figthers



Atleast they Took courage to take innocents as Hostage in India, But did Not enter the army head quarters and kept the army men hostage for over a day and that too by just a couple of terrorists In Rawalpindi ..lol....

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## blueoval79

rohailmalhi said:


> yar 200 freedom fighters have make whole of ur army hajra .
> oh sorry i forgot that just 10 young boys can take mumbai hostage for 3 days thn these 200 mens are more than enough for Indian Army.
> 
> i think thn these terrorists are more trained than ur army men. so y dont u get sum training from the captured freedom figthers



Miyan ....apna ghar jal raha hai...par ab bhi padosi ke ghar main jal rahe alav ko dekh kar khush ho rahe hai.....


Your so called 10 boys....hmm....9 dies......1 who is alive has become a gale ki girgit for Pakistan....all they could do was kill some innocents like...firing at innocents like hijras exported by a foreign country....when faced soldiers they died like rats in shithole...

and the so called 200 terrorists...are dead...or may be getting bullets in their head as we speak..

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## kugga

DRDO said:


> Yes really we need to learn from Pakistan that they cant even except dead bodies of their freedom fighter.
> 
> *Lets forget about terrorist bodies Pakistan not even except bodies of their soldiers in Kargil War ....... U forget that*



Ahh.... The same story also goes here that Indian soldiers are denying to accept bodies of their soldiers...


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## Mirza Jatt

rohailmalhi said:


> yar 200 freedom fighters have make whole of ur army hajra .
> oh sorry i forgot that just 10 young boys can take mumbai hostage for 3 days thn these 200 mens are more than enough for Indian Army.
> 
> i think thn these terrorists are more trained than ur army men. so y dont u get sum training from the captured freedom figthers



freedom fighters ?? P

anyways..200 ?? just 200 people asking for freedom ?? P

200 men more than enough for Indian army ?? P

history says that 1971, Indian army.....  forget it...

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## kugga

Indian Jatt said:


> freedom fighters ??
> 
> anyways..200 ?? just 200 people asking for freedom ??
> 
> 200 men more than enough for Indian army ?? P
> 
> *history says* that 1971, Indian army.....  forget it...



Just a few posts back a boy was saying that Indians don't care about history...


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## Ammyy

Indian Jatt said:


> freedom fighters ??
> 
> anyways..200 ?? just 200 people asking for freedom ??
> 
> 200 men more than enough for Indian army ??
> 
> history says that 1971, Indian army.....  forget it...



Dude why only 1971 ...they try 4 time in past and got punishment

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## rohailmalhi

Arjun MBT said:


> Atleast they Took courage to take innocents as Hostage in India, But did Not enter the army head quarters and kept the army men hostage for over a day and that too by just a couple of terrorists In Rawalpindi ..lol....



First of all they were disgused themselves by wearing Army Uniforms.

U know the beaty of my Amry My army chief stayed there he attended his all meetings and everything goes according to the plan.Just a section of the Head quater was sealed .and they waited just for the night to fall .
Operation stared they eliminated all of the terrorists including the one sitting in the middle of 23 army soldiers wearing a suicidal jacket .SSGs didnt even gave him the time to think and act.

and in ur case i dont need to tell u Whole India was stand still for like 2 days everything was closed .Man do u need me to enlighten u more abt that attack.

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## chachachoudhary

archangel said:


> Hate to hear these news. Why can't the Indian Army fight some religious crack heads without a casualty. I still don't get that even after so many equipments, this large spending on defence, joint trainings and everything else that is going on to help them improve, they can't just fight these militants without losing their lives.
> 
> Anyway, I salute the martyrs and prey to God for their spirits to rest in peace forever and also to support their families.



You are 100% correct. The casualty rate of indian soldiers in war against terror is highest.

We indians have been successfully brainwashed to pass on these insufficiencies under the garb of "sacrifice", bravery, and what not. In india, there is no mechanism and "will" to analyse the causes of death of servicemen on duty and unfortunately it is "accepted" as part of duty.

Remember, when one chief minister died in a helicopter crash. Entire VIP helicopter fleet across the nation was grounded and checked for possible faults.

We are severely and in fact "criminally" lacking in basics such as good quality armour, ballistic helmets, optical sights for rifles, and what not.

I challenge anybody and everybody to bring in israeli coin specialists during a live coin operation in J&K and see how they do it. I challenge anybody and everybody, they will do it without losing a single person on their side and without collateral damage also, but I am sure "good for nothing" indian brigadiers and generals with inflated egos will never allow that.

The most important fact is in india human lives are cheaper and replacements are easily available. Unlike our CMs, PMs, and their kins, our soldiers are "expendable".

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## Arjun MBT

rohailmalhi said:


> First of all they were disgused themselves by wearing Army Uniforms.
> 
> U know the beaty of my Amry My army chief stayed there he attended his all meetings and everything goes according to the plan.Just a section of the Head quater was sealed .and they waited just for the night to fall .
> Operation stared they eliminated all of the terrorists including the one sitting in the middle of 23 army soldiers wearing a suicidal jacket .SSGs didnt even gave him the time to think and act.
> 
> and in ur case i dont need to tell u Whole India was stand still for like 2 days everything was closed .Man do u need me to enlighten u more abt that attack.



Just like any person in army uniform can Enter Your head quarters(This makes Me laugh) , In Our hotel Any civilian is allowed, it took u a whole day to clear terrorists Who made army people hostages, such a coward army...

But here, NSG took 3 days and Completed the mission in 3 different spots.... engaged in more than 1200 rooms... 1200 rooms get it??? 600 each hotel ,plenty of room for terrorists to run around...

But in Rawalpindi they made ur officers sitting Ducks

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## rohailmalhi

Indian Jatt said:


> freedom fighters ?? P
> 
> anyways..200 ?? just 200 people asking for freedom ?? P
> 
> 200 men more than enough for Indian army ?? P
> 
> history says that 1971, Indian army.....  forget it...



No not 200 are asking for freedom. Whole of Indian occupied kashmir is asking for freddom.Im just pointing toward that for controlling 200 freedom fighters u indians have like .75 million army mens in Kashmir.

Tht was past we learned enough u proved at tht tym the saying is very true *Bagal main churri ,muh mina raam raam. *


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## Ammyy

rohailmalhi said:


> No not 200 are asking for freedom. Whole of Indian occupied kashmir is asking for freddom.Im just pointing toward that for controlling 200 freedom fighters u indians have like .75 million army mens in Kashmir.
> 
> Tht was past we learned enough u proved at tht tym the saying is very true *Bagal main churri ,muh mina raam raam. *



Wet dreams never become true 
Kashmir is part of India................. and no power in this world take it from us
You try in past and learn lesson ... i think you dnt want it 5th time right ???

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## rohailmalhi

Arjun MBT said:


> Just like any person in army uniform can Enter Your head quarters(This makes Me laugh) , In Our hotel Any civilian is allowed, it took u a whole day to clear terrorists Who made army people hostages, such a coward army...
> 
> But here, NSG took 3 days and Completed the mission in 3 different spots.... engaged in more than 1200 rooms... 1200 rooms get it??? 600 each hotel ,plenty of room for terrorists to run around...
> 
> *But in Rawalpindi they made ur officers sitting Ducks*



*Sitting Ducks*
Cannot expect more from u man.
i told u earlier just a section was sealed not the whole HQ even our Army chief was there whole of the tym and even sum foriegner attended meeting with him at the tym of operation.

and they just waitied for the night to fall.coz they saved many precious lifes .

im saying the same thing 3 days Whole india cum to stand still.and ur NSG is bit of lazy coz it took soo long to clear all these rooms.


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## Ammyy

rohailmalhi said:


> *Sitting Ducks*
> Cannot expect more from u man.
> i told u earlier just a section was sealed not the whole HQ even our Army chief was there whole of the tym and even sum foriegner attended meeting with him at the tym of operation.
> 
> and they just waitied for the night to fall.coz they saved many precious lifes .
> 
> im saying the same thing 3 days Whole india cum to stand still.and ur NSG is bit of lazy coz it took soo long to clear all these rooms.



I think you forget about Lal masjid operation ???


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## rohailmalhi

DRDO said:


> Wet dreams never become true
> Kashmir is part of India................. and no power in this world take it from us
> You try in past and learn lesson ... i think you dnt want it 5th time right ???



No one is having wet dreams except u .
We will see abt the claim of NO power can take tht from us .

and in past yes we have learned lesson .Now we will take america in to confidence before doing anything coz thn u will have to run and go sit in the lap of Uncle Sam and Uncle Israel to help u save u ***.


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## Ammyy

rohailmalhi said:


> No one is having wet dreams except u .
> We will see abt the claim of NO power can take tht from us .
> 
> and in past yes we have learned lesson .Now we will take america in to confidence before doing anything coz thn u will have to run and go sit in the lap of Uncle Sam and Uncle Israel to help u save u ***.



From past 60 years you are trying for Kashmir and still you are not able to take it 

I think after 500 or even 600 years you can take Kashmir


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## DGMO

This thread is similar to one I made a post in yesterday. However, I'd like to reiterate those words, which perhaps take a view on the wider issue of the conflict itself.

As much as I condemn the killings of protestors, these events will continue and we will be trapped in the cycle of violence, of action and reaction which suits no-one.

We're back to where this chain of discussion usually ends up, most notably:

*Pak posters:* The Kashmiri's are fighting for their freedom from Indian occupation, it's their right.
*Indian posters:* Kashmir is an integral part of India, these protesters are making their own lives a misery. If Kashmiri's are not happy, they're free to join Pakistan.

This merry-go-round doesn't help in providing any solution to this issue. All we do is accentuate our traditional stands. A starting point should be to talk about where we *agree* on what's happening in Kashmir. And my take on this is the following:


Kashmiri's are suffering, and there is genuine despair - this suffering is concentrated predominantly in the Valley. A political and non-violent solution is the ONLY answer to their troubles.


Annexation or seccession from the Indian Union is a non-starter. However, autonomy or a greater devolution of powers may be the answer, particularly in the Valley. Whether that meets the demands of 'azaadi' that so many shout for is unknown. However, that, coupled with a reduced / withdrawn military presence could quell the troubles of the state. I understand the Indian counter-argument that doing this may result in similar demands in other states, but the 'special status' of Kashmir needs to be the overriding concern.


Borders cannot be redrawn - I don't see Indian administered Kashmir merging with Pakistan, I don't foresee an independent Kashmir. Nor do I see Pakistan administered Kashmir joining India. The LOC as it is will become the current border, although perhaps softened (as has been advocated) to allow greater movement between both sides of the LOC.


The military build-up / presence within the Valley is detrimental to peace efforts. This needs to be reduced for the frustration and humiliation amongst the local population to dissapate.


Pakistan needs to stifle those that scream and preach about jihad in Kashmir. If we're using the excuse that in a democracy, we need to ensure freedom of expression (as Shah Mahmood Qureshi said the other day), then that has to be expressed *responsibly*. That was our response on the facebook / Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) drawing episode, or was it not? Brainwashing another generation on hate and violence will get us nowhere.
Now I'm sure I've said things above that might upset people on both sides of the border. There are entrenched views, and has been mentioned, both sides are mainly interested in a lot of take, and not much give.

Our thoughts should be primiarily for those that are suffering - Kashmiri's. How can we help them achieve a better life, and how can we in the way of peace improve lives for both nations?

Rose tinted and idealistic is what many may term my stance to be, but our stated positions on Kashmir won't get us anywhere, and that has been proven for six decades and counting.


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## Arjun MBT

rohailmalhi said:


> *Sitting Ducks*
> Cannot expect more from u man.
> i told u earlier just a section was sealed not the whole HQ even our Army chief was there whole of the tym and even sum foriegner attended meeting with him at the tym of operation.
> 
> and they just waitied for the night to fall.coz they saved many precious lifes .
> 
> im saying the same thing 3 days Whole india cum to stand still.and ur NSG is bit of lazy coz it took soo long to clear all these rooms.



Well atleast its better than pakistan army which Surrendered to Terrorists and Accepted to be there hostages.... and Ofcourse, we dont need Your certificate On NSG as British,German,French and Japanese commandos had thanked NSG as they learned a Lot on how to face such scenarios if it were in there country and Greeted the NSG and wanted the NSG to share The strategy They adopted in Operation black tornado... Thats A credit for the NSG....

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## Agnostic_Indian

There are two solutions 
1.conduct a plebiscite in the whole kashmir. But that is very unlikely bcoz for that pakistan must withdraw all illegal settlers and take back the land given to china then start withdrawing army from kashmir then india can do the same. But all these are unrealistic so it gives way to the second option.
option 2. Make loc the international border.this is the practical solution and gain and lose are equal for both sides.

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## Mirza Jatt

kugga said:


> Just a few posts back a boy was saying that Indians don't care about history...



that was his opinion..you have yours..similarly, I have my own.

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## rohailmalhi

Arjun MBT said:


> *Well atleast its better than pakistan army which Surrendered to Terrorists and Accepted to be there hostages*.... and Ofcourse, we dont need Your certificate On NSG as GSG 9,GIGN had thanked NSG as they learned a Lot on how to face such scenarios if it were in there country and Greeted the NSG... Thats A credit for the NSG....



Care to explain how and when this happens.


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## billi

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;962518 said:


> No matter how much Indians bark here - The fact is all Pakistanis will support Kashmiris be it liberals, moderate or radicals.We will always support Kashmiris - We will never backstab them.



you can support them morally , but dont send terrorists that are not even kashmiri. also, just as india does not interfere in p.o.k why are you interfering in the real kaskmir?

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## Arjun MBT

rohailmalhi said:


> Care to explain how and when this happens.



Enjoy the News Man..... Foreign commandos Were In Touch With NSG, They wanted the NSG's Expertise in dealing such situation and wanted The Strategy adopted By NSG in successfully completing operation Black tornado....

Foreign commandos contact NSG to know Mumbai story

Foreign commandos contact NSG to know Mumbai story

Foreign commandos contact NSG to know Mumbai story | Top News

*And About Your news, here it goes*

http://pakistaniat.com/2009/10/10/terrorists-ghq-attack-pakistan/comment-page-5/

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=24948

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## Mirza Jatt

rohailmalhi said:


> No not 200 are asking for freedom. Whole of Indian occupied kashmir is asking for freddom.Im just pointing toward that for controlling 200 freedom fighters u indians have like .75 million army mens in Kashmir.



sorry..all the men are not there to control those 200 brainwashed...majority deployment is for neutralising the terrorists..from across the border...and we are doing that daily.



> Tht was past we learned enough u proved at tht tym the saying is very true *Bagal main churri ,muh mina raam raam. *



sorry dude..you must be joking..I dont want to derail the thread,but that is something that we should say.


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## Dash

sometimes I think this is true - War is old man talking and young man dying..

But again looking at the plight of our soldiers, I dont know how many of them will die when faced by real guns, the world war 2 vests and helmets will not protect them.

Rest in peace soldiers...


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## Dr.Evil

For *every Indian soilder killed we should kill 10 of them* and their supporters, then only those idiots will come to senses.

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## Crypto

DeathGod said:


> *Its time we should penetrate Pak-occ-Kashmir* and free it from these terrorists. I dont understand that why is India not acting pro-actively in this regard.(democratically and politically)
> 
> Why are we not preassurising Pakistan to give up its control of Kashmir by providing evidence of terrorists in their part of Kashmir. Even if UN doesnt act we have the capability to act on ourselves and seal the fate of Kashmir once and for all.
> 
> Long have our brothers lost their lives just trying to defend an almost non-existent and god-forsaken border.I hope that we get rid of these camps which on a territory which is illegally occupied by Pakistan.I hope we make very good progress economically and leave Pakistan in the dust. Maybe when we will have more say in the matters of the world, will the Politicians have the will to dismantle the nest of scum.



Wet dreams  but best of luck, there is no restriction on day dreaming..

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## zagahaga

how about this let kashmir be indipendant


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## Ahmad

zagahaga said:


> how about this let kashmir be indipendant



thats what i porposed before, let the kashmire from both sides go free, all the tensions will away altoghter.


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## Areesh

Arjun MBT said:


> Enjoy the News Man..... Foreign commandos Were In Touch With NSG, They wanted the NSG's Expertise in dealing such situation and wanted The Strategy adopted By NSG in successfully completing operation Black tornado....
> 
> Foreign commandos contact NSG to know Mumbai story
> 
> Foreign commandos contact NSG to know Mumbai story
> 
> 
> Foreign commandos contact NSG to know Mumbai story | Top News
> 
> *And About Your news, here it goes*
> 
> http://pakistaniat.com/2009/10/10/terrorists-ghq-attack-pakistan/comment-page-5/
> 
> GHQ attacked



Lolzzz Pak army never surrendered to any terrorist. It's achievements are well known and accepted by everyone except dumbas*. Since a dumbas* don't have eyes and brain they can't witness it. Your army can't even wet dream about having any achievement against vicious terrorist faction like TTP.


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## Areesh

Indian Jatt said:


> sorry..all the men are not there to control those 200 brainwashed...majority deployment is for neutralising the terrorists..from across the border...*and we are doing that daily.*
> 
> 
> 
> sorry dude..you must be joking..I dont want to derail the thread,but that is something that we should say.




Let me tell you a little fact. You aren't going to achieve that bold part in at least 60 coming years in the future.


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## welcome

another indian internal matter and some pakistani are taking interest in that.

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## Areesh

welcome said:


> another indian internal matter and some pakistani are taking interest in that.



Every thing except Kashmir is India's internal matter.


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## Dash

zagahaga said:


> how about this let kashmir be indipendant


So that you attack it and take it...leave it to India, its better with us.

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## Spring Onion

Ahmad said:


> thats what i porposed before, let the kashmire from both sides go free, all the tensions will away altoghter.



Ahmad we are ready to that even as we believe whatever Kashmiris want is right but Terrorist State of India is not having the guts to face the public verdict

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## Dash

Areesh said:


> Every thing except Kashmir is India's internal matter.


So you say Kashmir is your internal matter???, it has to be somebody's internal matter at least right?...


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## Dash

Jana said:


> Ahmad we are ready to that even as we believe whatever Kashmiris want is right but Terrorist State of India is not having the guts to face the public verdict


People were not given a chance to give their verdict in 1947 when you attacked it. Why do you say that now, Lost the battle or what???...

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## Spring Onion

*Violence spreads to south Kashmir, 3 killed in Anantnag*
PTI, Jun 29, 2010, 06.20pm IST

SRINAGR: *Three more youths were killed on Tuesday when CRPF allegedly opened fire during clashes with protestors in Anantnag as violence spread to south Kashmir and more towns in the valley were put under curfew.*

*With Tuesday's deaths, eight teenaged boys have lost their lives in the last five days in incidents of fatal shootings involving security forces* escalating the tense situation in the valley. In all, 11 youths have died in the last three weeks during clashes between protestors and security forces.

*Police identified the killed as Ishfaq Ahmed Khanday (15), Imtiyaz Ahmad Itoo (17) and Shujatul Islam (19)*. The victims were part of a mob hurling stones at CRPF personnel in Anchidoora in Anantnag town, 55 kms from here, police said
*
Two persons received bullet wounds in the incident and were rushed to S K Institute of Medical sciences here, they said. While Khanday and Itoo were killed on the spot, Islam died on the way to the hospital, police added.*

*Locals alleged that the CRPF personnel barged into the houses and shops while chasing a stone-pelting mob protesting the rise in killings by security forces and shot the victims from close range inside a house and a bakery shop.
*
They said the two were rushed to district hospital where doctors declared them brought dead.
*
As the news of death of two teenagers spread, more people poured on the roads and set ablaze three vehicles of CRPF at Khannabal-Pahalgam road in the town, official sources said.*
*
This is the second firing incident in Anantnag town since Tuesday morning. Earlier, 16-year-old boy Irshad Ahmad Bhat received a bullet injury in his left leg when police opened fire on a mob at Mattan Bus Stand, 65 kms from here.*

Bhat was rushed to bones and joint hospital in Barzullah here for treatment. Besides Bhat, 20 other persons including ten policemen were injured in day-long clashes between stone pelting mob and law enforcing agencies in the town.

Fresh clashes also broke out in parts of Srinagar and Baramulla leaving 13 people injured.

With violence spreading to more places, curfew was imposed this morning in parts of Baramulla, Anantnag and seven police station areas of Srinagar as the situation remained tense in troubled Sopore in the wake of the protests.

In view of the violence, mobile services in north Kashmir and SMS service in the entire valley were blocked on the instructions of the state government.

The mobile services in north Kashmir were later restored after remaining suspended for a day and a half while SMS service throughout the valley is still blocked.

With separatists giving fresh calls for strike, life remained crippled across Kashmir valley, including Srinagar, for the fifth consecutive day on Tuesday.

In Anantnag, 65 kms from here, locals assembled at a bus stand and protested against the killings. Paramilitary forces deployed in the town initially cane charged them but when they refused to budge, they opened fire.
*
In Srinagar, agitators staged protest demonstrations in Maisuma area, Zaldager, Galwanpora, the airport road, Nund Resh Colony, Boatman colony in Bemina, Batmaloo and HMT Zainakote, he said. Five persons were injured in the clashes.

In Baramulla town of north Kashmir where a teenager was killed yesterday, people staged demonstrations in the town, Delina and Khanpora and clashed with security forces resulting in injuries to five persons, he said.*

Violence spreads to south Kashmir, 3 killed in Anantnag - India - The Times of India


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## kugga

Dash said:


> So you say Kashmir is your internal matter???, it has to be somebody's internal matter at least right?...



Kashmir is Kashmir's internal matter


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## Spring Onion

Dash said:


> People were not given a chance to give their verdict in 1947 when you attacked it. Why do you say that now, Lost the battle or what???...



People were not given the chance to give their verdict when that slave Dogra sold them. If anyone who is losing the battle then its Terrorist State of India . for how long you will kill Kashmiris


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## kugga

Jana said:


> *Violence spreads to south Kashmir, 3 killed in Anantnag*
> PTI, Jun 29, 2010, 06.20pm IST
> 
> SRINAGR: *Three more youths were killed on Tuesday when CRPF allegedly opened fire during clashes with protestors in Anantnag as violence spread to south Kashmir and more towns in the valley were put under curfew.*
> 
> *With Tuesday's deaths, eight teenaged boys have lost their lives in the last five days in incidents of fatal shootings involving security forces* escalating the tense situation in the valley. In all, 11 youths have died in the last three weeks during clashes between protestors and security forces.
> 
> *Police identified the killed as Ishfaq Ahmed Khanday (15), Imtiyaz Ahmad Itoo (17) and Shujatul Islam (19)*. The victims were part of a mob hurling stones at CRPF personnel in Anchidoora in Anantnag town, 55 kms from here, police said
> *
> Two persons received bullet wounds in the incident and were rushed to S K Institute of Medical sciences here, they said. While Khanday and Itoo were killed on the spot, Islam died on the way to the hospital, police added.*
> 
> *Locals alleged that the CRPF personnel barged into the houses and shops while chasing a stone-pelting mob protesting the rise in killings by security forces and shot the victims from close range inside a house and a bakery shop.
> *
> They said the two were rushed to district hospital where doctors declared them brought dead.
> *
> As the news of death of two teenagers spread, more people poured on the roads and set ablaze three vehicles of CRPF at Khannabal-Pahalgam road in the town, official sources said.*
> *
> This is the second firing incident in Anantnag town since Tuesday morning. Earlier, 16-year-old boy Irshad Ahmad Bhat received a bullet injury in his left leg when police opened fire on a mob at Mattan Bus Stand, 65 kms from here.*
> 
> Bhat was rushed to bones and joint hospital in Barzullah here for treatment. Besides Bhat, 20 other persons including ten policemen were injured in day-long clashes between stone pelting mob and law enforcing agencies in the town.
> 
> Fresh clashes also broke out in parts of Srinagar and Baramulla leaving 13 people injured.
> 
> With violence spreading to more places, curfew was imposed this morning in parts of Baramulla, Anantnag and seven police station areas of Srinagar as the situation remained tense in troubled Sopore in the wake of the protests.
> 
> In view of the violence, mobile services in north Kashmir and SMS service in the entire valley were blocked on the instructions of the state government.
> 
> The mobile services in north Kashmir were later restored after remaining suspended for a day and a half while SMS service throughout the valley is still blocked.
> 
> With separatists giving fresh calls for strike, life remained crippled across Kashmir valley, including Srinagar, for the fifth consecutive day on Tuesday.
> 
> In Anantnag, 65 kms from here, locals assembled at a bus stand and protested against the killings. Paramilitary forces deployed in the town initially cane charged them but when they refused to budge, they opened fire.
> *
> In Srinagar, agitators staged protest demonstrations in Maisuma area, Zaldager, Galwanpora, the airport road, Nund Resh Colony, Boatman colony in Bemina, Batmaloo and HMT Zainakote, he said. Five persons were injured in the clashes.
> 
> In Baramulla town of north Kashmir where a teenager was killed yesterday, people staged demonstrations in the town, Delina and Khanpora and clashed with security forces resulting in injuries to five persons, he said.*
> 
> Violence spreads to south Kashmir, 3 killed in Anantnag - India - The Times of India


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## Areesh

Dash said:


> So you say Kashmir is your internal matter???, it has to be somebody's internal matter at least right?...



It is a disputed territory whose fate is yet to be decided. So it is Kashmiri people's internal matter. And we are commenting on it since it is disputed.


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## notsuperstitious

Jana said:


> Ahmad we are ready to that even as we believe whatever Kashmiris want is right but Terrorist State of India is not having the guts to face the public verdict



LOL,

Peddling lies again, are we? I see.

*Ahmad*, they are NOT ready for any such thing. They have NEVER made that suggestion except on forums to score fake points. Infact the option for independence was dropped from the UN plan on the insistence of Pakistan!

They have the blood of scores of thousands on their hands, yes, the Terrorist State of Pakistan through all their proxies, and their lies are only smoke screen, you are an Afghan, and you should know.

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## Dash

kugga said:


> Kashmir is Kashmir's internal matter


Then why are you bothered???

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## Dash

Jana said:


> People were not given the chance to give their verdict when that slave Dogra sold them. If anyone who is losing the battle then its Terrorist State of India . for how long you will kill Kashmiris


ok, Agreed that they were not given a chance to give their verdict and Dogra was a slave.

then tell me who are *you* to decide that they need to be annexed to pakistan?...

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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Jana said:


> People were not given the chance to give their verdict when that slave Dogra sold them.


 
Ya I think ..you need to read your history again..Maharaja of Kashmir had not signed accession papers, till your army along with your tribal attacked Kashmir and were threatening Srinagar..*.the funny part is had you not attacked , Maharaja might have never accessed to India..coz he wanted an autonomous state ,with himself still in power.*



Jana said:


> If anyone who is losing the battle then its *Terrorist State of India* . for how long you will kill Kashmiris


*
It does not bode well when ppl of Pakistan call other, "terrorists"..because the whole world knows , who the terrorist are?? *

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## Arjun MBT

Areesh said:


> Lolzzz Pak army never surrendered to any terrorist. It's achievements are well known and accepted by everyone except dumbas*. Since a dumbas* don't have eyes and brain they can't witness it. Your army can't even wet dream about having any achievement against vicious terrorist faction like TTP.




Calling some one dumbass dosent make Your army better My child....lol.... I proved You with your Own Source, and still u r in denial...lol.... 
 *Pakistan army*...

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## Dash

Arjun MBT said:


> Calling some one dumbass dosent make Your army better My child....lol.... I proved You with your Own Source, and still u r in denial...lol....
> *Pakistan army*...


Arjun -

No offence to the State of Pakistan, they should just leave Kashmir alone.

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## Arjun MBT

Dash said:


> Arjun -
> 
> No offence to the State of Pakistan, they should just leave Kashmir alone.



No, Let them dig there own Grave.... We will see How Much they dig, then a Push and there they fall.... let them go with there plans man...

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## kugga

fateh71 said:


> LOL,
> 
> Peddling lies again, are w? I see.
> 
> *Ahmad*, they are NOT ready for any such thing. They have NEVER made that suggestion except on forums to score fake points. Infact the option for independence was dropped from the UN plan on the insistence of Pakistan!
> 
> They have the blood of scores of thousands on their hands, yes, the Terrorist State of Pakistan through all their proxies, and their lies are only smoke screen, you are an Afghan, and you KNOW!



Who are you to speak on our behalf??

We paksitanis want the issue to be resolved in accordance with the will of Kashmiris


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## Dash

That is why I said they should just leave it alone

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## blueoval79

kugga said:


> Who are you to speak on our behalf??
> 
> We paksitanis want the issue to be resolved in accordance with the will of Kashmiris



Well you guys resolved Afghanistan...where is it now.......and what situation is Pakistan is in these days.....

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## SpArK

*New road to bring Kashmir Valley, Doda region closer​*





_A sign board at Sinthan Pass at an height of 12450 feet lying between Kishtwar and Srinagar road. File Photo: Nissar Ahmad
_



Kishtwar-Anantnag tunnel to pass through the Sinthan Pass

The ambitious project to bore a tunnel between Vailoo in South Kashmir and Singhpora in Kishtwar, once completed, will revolutionise road connectivity between the Kashmir Valley and the Doda region of Jammu.

Even as work continues on the road  which goes through one of the highest passes in the Himalayan region and will connect Kishtwar, the remote district in the Doda region, with Anantnag in South Kashmir  the tunnel will shorten the travelling distance from eight to two hours.

The Sinthan Pass, at 12,450 ft., ignored as one of the barren passes until a few years ago, is all set to gain importance once the Detailed Project Report (DPR) for handing it over to a consortium is complete.

The five-km-long tunnel will be financed by the Jammu and Kashmir Bank on a public-private-partnership basis. International bids will be invited to take up the work.

A team of consultants from Mumbai visited the area on Saturday to conduct an informal survey for making the DPR. They trekked 13 km to see how the work can be made possible.

The technical partner will be selected through a global tendering process. J&K Bank is financing the project under special purpose vehicle, a senior J&K Bank official said.

The team was accompanied by Minister for Roads and Buildings G.M. Saroori, who has been pivotal in pushing the project through. He later told TheHindu that the tunnel will be completed in two years, after the bidding is finalised, at a cost of Rs.400 crore.

Mr. Saroori said that under the Prime Minister's Reconstruction Plan, Rs.640 crore has already been earmarked for the road that passes through Sinthan.

Work halted in 2008

Work on the project was stopped in 2008 when militants killed four General Reserve Engineering Force (GREF) personnel, including a Lieutenant Colonel, on June 13 that year.

The GREF, a subsidiary of the Border Roads Organisation (BRO), had been working on the project, which would not only shorten the distance between Kishtwar and Anantnag by six hours but also provide an alternative to the Srinagar-Jammu highway, which generally turns hostile during winter.

While the BRO proposed a six-km-long tunnel between Pahalgarh and Alan Gadole, the State government prefers a four-km-long tunnel from Singhpora and Vailoo.

This is more viable as the work on the road on both these sides is complete and makes sense, Mr. Saroori said.

The work is almost complete on the Anantnag side but only light vehicles from South Kashmir to Kishtwar ply on a daily basis. The Pass closes soon after the first snowfall until April.

A traveller has to cover 290 km to reach Kishtwar via the Srinagar-Jammu highway, and the Srinagar-Sinthan-Kishtwar road reduces the distance by 200 km. Earthwork and two-laning have been completed from Batote to Chatroo on the Kishtwar side, but the middle stretch needs a lot more work.

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## asq

Indian are upto their tricks again and they want to do business with us.

Pakistani fighter did not enter Kashmir in 1947 but in 1948 till Raja signed the succession, he had no right to do so as it was to be decided on the bases of populous as accepted by Nehru, Jinnah and British.

Most stately areas were to be decided by populous and not by force.

We do not trust india as it took Hyderasbad, Junagardh and other stately prince'ts by force. So we had to go into kashmir, but at the request of U.N The than Prime minister of Pakistan withdrew from Srinagasr airpoert to the present position for the plebiscite to take place.

India promised in U.N. and than refused.

So Kaqshmir is a disputed trrritorey and it only can be settled by the wishes of the kashmiri people, India has no right to hold it against their will.


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## SpArK

Six weaponed foreign militants were killed late on Monday, and three Armymen also lost their lives in a violent gun-battle that broke out alongside the Line of Control in Kupwara region of Jammu and Kashmir.

Acting on a tip-off, troops started with the movement of a group of infiltrating militants in 104 frontward locations alongside LoC in Kupwara belt and launched an operation, which triggered the encounter, a Senior Army official at Udhampur-based Northern Command said.

Six foreign militants and three Army jawans were killed in the gun-battle, which was when reports were previously brought from the region.

For the meantime, security forces have recovered three anti-personnel collieries from a field that is near the Indo-Pak border in Samba district of J&K.

Acting on information given by a farmer, security forces could locate the three mines from his field near the International Border in Sadha Chak area, which is almost 47-kms from here, the previous night, police said.

The mines had later been defused. The operation was yet going on at the time.

Army Spokesperson, Lt. Col., J S Brar said that the operation was launched on Sunday night in Nowgam subdivision, when troops could identify a movement of militants near LoC.

As troops challenged the terrorists, they opened fire. In the encounter that is still going on, five terrorists were killed. Three soldiers too lost their lives while the clash was on, he said.

Police sources in north Kashmir said that bodies of the militants had been recovered by the Army, along with weapons and ammunition. Support has been rushed to the region to make sure that no militant crashes in.

Bloodthirsty Valley Claims Life of 3 Jawans and 6 Militants in Gun Battle | Current Waves


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## karan.1970

Jana said:


> Ahmad we are ready to that even as we believe whatever Kashmiris want is right but Terrorist State of India is not having the guts to face the public verdict



"_Humko maaloom hai jannat ki haqeeat lekin,
Dil ke khush rakhne ko Ghalib ye khayal achcha hai_"

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## Mirza Jatt

Areesh said:


> Let me tell you a little fact. You aren't going to achieve that bold part in at least 60 coming years in the future.



60 years ??  lol.

I dont mind doing that  for 100 years... if the reply was for the bolded part...

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## Dash

> We do not trust india as it took Hyderasbad, Junagardh and other stately prince'ts by force. So we had to go into kashmir, but at the request of U.N The than Prime minister of Pakistan withdrew from Srinagasr airpoert to the present position for the plebiscite to take place.



Tell me why did u want Hydrabad???...

Trust me these discussions will take us to history, and we will keep digging it up until our steps bleed.

You guys were then so intelligent that you gave some to China. It was good for India. Now do a pool, we will call all kahmiri Pandits scattered across India.


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## Saquibk

Indians flaunt their democracy so much, yet they always go for the military solution to Kashmir. If Kashmiris want to live with India, why not have a referendum and finish the dispute. State elections are no substitute for referendum as established by global democratic practices. Canada had a referendum in Qubec. Australia had a referendum about maintaining dominion status. EU members have referendums for major decisions about EU, although they all have elected governments; sovereign governments, not state governments. Why doesn't India follow their example and have a referendum in Kashmir and finish this issue once and for all.


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## DeathGod

Jana said:


> Ahmad we are ready to that even as we believe whatever Kashmiris want is right but Terrorist State of India is not having the guts to face the public verdict



Feel pity on a victim of Green media with a crescent and a star... She thinks that Pakistan is going to free the illegally occupied land if India vacates her legal land.... May God show her the right path...

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## blueoval79

Saquibk said:


> Indians flaunt their democracy so much, yet they always go for the military solution to Kashmir. If Kashmiris want to live with India, why not have a referendum and finish the dispute. State elections are no substitute for referendum as established by global democratic practices. Canada had a referendum in Qubec. Australia had a referendum about maintaining dominion status. EU members have referendums for major decisions about EU, although they all have elected governments; sovereign governments, not state governments. Why doesn't India follow their example and have a referendum in Kashmir and finish this issue once and for all.



Well ...last time a similar plebiscite was conducted ...Pakistan lost ....but again Pakistan claims that was rigged....remember Junagarh

So how can world be assured that Pakistan will honor the verdict .....

the problem is that for Pakistanis... plebiscite has only two options...

1. Join Pakistan


2. Stay alone.

But whats not taught to them is that there is another option...

3. Stay with India...but they simply forget this one....

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## karan.1970

Saquibk said:


> Indians flaunt their democracy so much, yet they always go for the military solution to Kashmir. If Kashmiris want to live with India, why not have a referendum and finish the dispute. State elections are no substitute for referendum as established by global democratic practices. Canada had a referendum in Qubec. Australia had a referendum about maintaining dominion status. EU members have referendums for major decisions about EU, although they all have elected governments; sovereign governments, not state governments. Why doesn't India follow their example and have a referendum in Kashmir and finish this issue once and for all.



All other referendums you talked about happened in absence of external influence. In Kashmir, till the time Pakistan does not stop the state policy of cross border terrorism and does not comply to troop widthdrawl from Pakistan occupied Ka shmir, a referendum is an option that is not under discussion.

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## Hulk

People who are suggesting independence of Kashmir should read history. 
Kashmir was independent till Pakistan attacked it, so that is not a solution.
The best solution is this.
Make borders irrelevant.
Pakistan control their part and India control their part and Kashmiri can move freely. 

Why this is only solution because no one both India and Pakistan will allow change of border, whatever happens. 

Also to get peace in Valley Kashmir's who indulge in stone pelting should understand that they should not create a situation where force is needed.

Example if there is stone pelting and mob going out of control, security forces have to fire teargas and rubber bullets, which sometime results in death.

This is then followed by more violent protest and same thing repeats.

This has repeated too many times in Kashmir.

My question is why can't Kashmiri's learn that violent protest always leads to death and avoid going that way.

I also feel that their can be opportunist of ISI/Seperatist who deliberately create a violent situation forcing security forces to fire. They know this will lead to injuries and deaths which give them perfect platform to further instigate the situation.

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## schneider

kugga said:


> May you haven't read the article it's about Kashmiris raising slogans and protesting for their freedom no where did Pakistan say give Kashmir to me..... we always said Kashmir issue should be resolved according to the wishes of Kashmiris....




it is our internal matter. Kashmir is an Integral Part of the Union of India. They have right to demonstrate because they are Indians and its a democracy.

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## Hulk

Saquibk said:


> Indians flaunt their democracy so much, yet they always go for the military solution to Kashmir. If Kashmiris want to live with India, why not have a referendum and finish the dispute. State elections are no substitute for referendum as established by global democratic practices. Canada had a referendum in Qubec. Australia had a referendum about maintaining dominion status. EU members have referendums for major decisions about EU, although they all have elected governments; sovereign governments, not state governments. Why doesn't India follow their example and have a referendum in Kashmir and finish this issue once and for all.



Because we are not fools to do referendum when our friends have instigated the feelings of the people. This was clearly visible when rape charges were leveled against forces when the girls were found virgin later.

There are some Kashmir's (maybe in 1000's) who want to separate with India and they indulge in sabotage, the doctors who framed the security forces was a Kashmiri. 

So if few thousand are acting as traitors such violence can be instigated. Example Baluchistan.

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## Dash

> I also feel that their can be opportunist of ISI/Seperatist who deliberately create a violent situation forcing security forces to fire. They know this will lead to injuries and deaths which give them perfect platform to further instigate the situation.



See the CRPF has told that it works in aid with state police so if such an action has happened thn they are not the one to blame it. So blaming security forces is out of question.

Now ISI if will have any hand on creating such scenario then it cant operate alone unless it buys some CRPF personnel, which is very much unlikely. what ISI can do is to buy some in state police and govt of kashmir is not a fool to shake its own chair who has been elected by people pf kashmir.

ISI just cant enter this fort of democracy. What they can do is, take the situation of kahmir and pose it on Indian govt on international forums or when they are having chit chat with their friends in Afganistan, who have not seen study books their entire life will belive it.

I think its time to commence a dialog to make LOC as the final border. That will be wise and it will save millions of rupees and lives of people of kashmir and Indian armed forces who have been fighting these for decades now.


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## notsuperstitious

Saquibk said:


> Indians flaunt their democracy so much, yet they always go for the military solution to Kashmir. If Kashmiris want to live with India, why not have a referendum and finish the dispute. State elections are no substitute for referendum as established by global democratic practices. Canada had a referendum in Qubec. Australia had a referendum about maintaining dominion status. EU members have referendums for major decisions about EU, although they all have elected governments; sovereign governments, not state governments. Why doesn't India follow their example and have a referendum in Kashmir and finish this issue once and for all.



India has not yet gone for a military solution to Kashmir, you on many occasions have and caused untold misery to the people of Kashmir.

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## Hulk

Dash said:


> See the CRPF has told that it works in aid with state police so if such an action has happened thn they are not the one to blame it. So blaming security forces is out of question.
> 
> *Now ISI if will have any hand on creating such scenario then it cant operate alone unless it buys some CRPF personnel, which is very much unlikely. what ISI can do is to buy some in state police and govt of kashmir is not a fool to shake its own chair who has been elected by people pf kashmir.*
> 
> ISI just cant enter this fort of democracy. What they can do is, take the situation of kahmir and pose it on Indian govt on international forums or when they are having chit chat with their friends in Afganistan, who have not seen study books their entire life will belive it.
> 
> I think its time to commence a dialog to make LOC as the final border. That will be wise and it will save millions of rupees and lives of people of kashmir and Indian armed forces who have been fighting these for decades now.



You got me wrong, what I meant is ISI can be involved in paying stone pelters/ seperatist to use any opportunity to create unrest. That way they can say there is so much disturbance in Kashmir. I believe this is happening because, at lot of times a none issue is made and issue, followed by stone pelting which forces at time forces to fire and then later someone dies and this gives them fuel to add more fire.

In every society there are goons for hire and they can do these kind of things for a sum of money. It was found that many of these stone pelting men were paid.

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## Saquibk

blueoval79 said:


> Well ...last time a similar plebiscite was conducted ...Pakistan lost ....but again Pakistan claims that was rigged....remember Junagarh
> 
> So how can world be assured that Pakistan will honor the verdict .....
> 
> the problem is that for Pakistanis... plebiscite has only two options...
> 
> 1. Join Pakistan
> 
> 
> 2. Stay alone.
> 
> But whats not taught to them is that there is another option...
> 
> 3. Stay with India...but they simply forget this one....



India can have a referendum on its own under UN observation, ignoring Pakistan. That will give legitimacy to Indian hold over Indian part of Kashmir.


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## Saquibk

karan.1970 said:


> All other referendums you talked about happened in absence of external influence. In Kashmir, till the time Pakistan does not stop the state policy of cross border terrorism and does not comply to troop widthdrawl from Pakistan occupied Ka shmir, a referendum is an option that is not under discussion.



If India shows seriousness in holding a fair referendum, other issues can be sorted out, which are only excuses for not holding referendum.


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## Saquibk

fateh71 said:


> India has not yet gone for a military solution to Kashmir, you on many occasions have and caused untold misery to the people of Kashmir.



Half a million soldiers in Kashmir and not yet gone for a military solution!!!!!

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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Saquibk said:


> If India shows seriousness in holding a fair referendum, other issues can be sorted out, which are only excuses for not holding referendum.



Who is "Pakistan" to ask us to hold a referendum??..*when you yourself attacked kashmir twice ,tried taking it by force, failed and now wants a free and fair referendum*..I am sorry sir but you do not retain any *moral high ground*.

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## Weapon Of Choice

Saquibk said:


> Half a million soldiers in Kashmir and not yet gone for a military solution!!!!!



Doesn't this shows the strength of indian democracy??
Indian army is fully under civilian control.


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## javaman

Saquibk said:


> India can have a referendum on its own under UN observation, ignoring Pakistan. That will give legitimacy to Indian hold over Indian part of Kashmir.



firstly an decision was taken that issues will be resolved bilaterally,u tried war when nothing happened and u r talking abt u.n. y dont u go to u.n,if u r so eager.coz it's better to go to u.n rather than get defeated,ashamed towards the whole world.

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## kugga

After reading the whole debate we can conclude

1- Every one lives in a delusional world some way or the other.

2- The term terrorist is totally a relative term it's not absolute at all. Someone that is terrorist for you is a supporter or freedom fighter for others.

3- Your point of view is always supporting one side and it's not bad at all. There are no neutrals.


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## Dash

Saquibk said:


> Half a million soldiers in Kashmir and not yet gone for a military solution!!!!!


what will happen then, soldiers left the place for winter and Mujahiddins took over the posts.

Clearly shows the intention..

You can argue this, but I say this is bad move, at least in international forums...

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## Saquibk

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> Who is "Pakistan" to ask us to hold a referendum??..*when you yourself attacked kashmir twice ,tried taking it by force, failed and now wants a free and fair referendum*..I am sorry sir but you do not retain any *moral high ground*.



India can gain a moral high ground by holding a referendum. Why is a democracy like India shying away from referendum, which will solve this thorny issue.


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## Saquibk

Weapon Of Choice said:


> Doesn't this shows the strength of indian democracy??
> Indian army is fully under civilian control.



I am speechless!


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## Saquibk

javaman said:


> firstly an decision was taken that issues will be resolved bilaterally,u tried war when nothing happened and u r talking abt u.n. y dont u go to u.n,if u r so eager.coz it's better to go to u.n rather than get defeated,ashamed towards the whole world.



A great democracy like India doesn't need to point scores with Pakistan. It should act like a true democracy and voluntarily go for referendum, just like other democracies have done to solve their issues.


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## archangel

I'm very pleased by such a response. And finally having a good feeling that at least some people here understand the value of a living person than his being a martyr. The difference between the Israelis and the Indians is that they have much much more determination and unity. We on the other hand are so divided with our caste, creed, religion, region, ego, greed and economy, that I sometimes wonder how we've made it upto here. But atleast now, we should sort our differences and work together and support our military and wade off anyone who goes against us. 

Now it definitely has to be "us" than just "me". And yes, we should make the most to improve the equipments and training of our soldiers than just through billions at the foreign companies. At the end of the day, it is the soldiers who run everything else and not the machines that run soldiers. So, they definitely need a makeover. Atleast, they should be given proper body-armors and well-protected vehicles at first. That would take them a long way in surviving these day-to-day scenario.


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## notsuperstitious

Saquibk said:


> Half a million soldiers in Kashmir and not yet gone for a military solution!!!!!



LOL, of course not, they are there to prevent a military solution, they are not there to change boundaries like your 'freedom fighters' who have caused such misery, bloodshed in kashmir and caused ethnic cleansing of Hindu Kashmiri Pundits from Kashmiri valley.

Really, your adventurism must stop some place where you get tired of the blood flowing to serve your political goals.



Saquibk said:


> A great democracy like India doesn't need to point scores with Pakistan. It should act like a true democracy and voluntarily go for referendum, just like other democracies have done to solve their issues.



Really, Pakistan should lead by example by supporting the Tibetans. Hey now be a true human and don't say 'not UN recognised' issue - think of the Tibetans and their wishes.

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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Saquibk said:


> India can gain a moral high ground by holding a referendum. Why is a *democracy* like India shying away from referendum, which will solve this thorny issue.



Democracy is a political form of government in which ppl elect their representative to govern them.

It is by the people, off the people and for the people.

*In democracy ppl have the right to choose their govt(which Kashmiris already have) and not their country.*

We do not want to attain a moral high ground ..for we have nothing to prove to anyone.

*There will be no more partitions of this country ...we have lived through it once ..there will be no second time.*

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## Saquibk

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> Democracy is a political form of government in which ppl elect their representative to govern them.
> 
> It is by the people, off the people and for the people.
> 
> *In democracy ppl have the right to choose their govt(which Kashmiris already have) and not their country.*
> 
> We do not want to attain a moral high ground ..for we have nothing to prove to anyone.
> 
> *There will be no more partitions of this country ...we have lived through it once ..there will be no second time.*



This is the kind of arrogance that leads to terrorism.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Saquibk said:


> This is the kind of arrogance that leads to terrorism.



This is no arrogance..this is *Nationalism*..*tell me would you support Balochistan breaking away from Pakistan??*

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## mourning sage

can any one please tell me how to start a thread. i am new.
thnxss!!!!!


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## SpArK

gohar321 said:


> can any one please tell me how to start a thread. i am new.
> thnxss!!!!!



Press ALT+F4 button.. just kidding

Bro ,
Click Forum in header. Select the apt thread (for example Pakistan defense, economy etc.)

There will be button called New thread click it and post your new thread.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> This is no arrogance..this is *Nationalism*..*tell me would you support Balochistan breaking away from Pakistan??*



Nationalism based on occupation and refusal to resolve a territorial dispute in accordance with the wishes of the people involved, as agreed to by India and promised the people of Kashmir.

Bringing in Baluchistan is like arguing over Indian Punjab and the Maoist States becoming independent - not the same thing as the disputed territory of Kashmir, whose people were promised a plebiscite to determine their future status as part of India or Pakistan.

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## RAHUL INDIAN

archangel said:


> I'm very pleased by such a response. And finally having a good feeling that at least some people here understand the value of a living person than his being a martyr. The difference between the Israelis and the Indians is that they have much much more determination and unity. We on the other hand are so divided with our caste, creed, religion, region, ego, greed and economy, that I sometimes wonder how we've made it upto here. But atleast now, we should sort our differences and work together and support our military and wade off anyone who goes against us.
> 
> Now it definitely has to be "us" than just "me". And yes, we should make the most to improve the equipments and training of our soldiers than just through billions at the foreign companies. At the end of the day, it is the soldiers who run everything else and not the machines that run soldiers. So, they definitely need a makeover. Atleast, they should be given proper body-armors and well-protected vehicles at first. That would take them a long way in surviving these day-to-day scenario.



bro determination is among highest in Indian army among the world...they are fighting for decades....the commitment and dedication is unmatched....


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## Hulk

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Nationalism based on occupation and refusal to resolve a territorial dispute in accordance with the wishes of the people involved, as agreed to by India and promised the people of Kashmir.
> 
> Bringing in Baluchistan is like arguing over Indian Punjab and the Maoist States becoming independent - not the same thing as the disputed territory of Kashmir, whose people were promised a plebiscite to determine their future status as part of India or Pakistan.



Plebiscite cannot be held after 63 year. The time is entirely different. I want to know was there a demand of plebiscite around 50's and was Pakistan working as hard as today for that? My understanding is till 1980's there was no violence in Kashmir. I also visited Kashmir as tourist at that time. This means people were happy. So the people who are agitating now are the ones who would have voted in 1950.

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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *Nationalism based on occupation* and *refusal to resolve a territorial dispute in accordance with the wishes of the people involved*, as agreed to by India and promised the people of Kashmir


.

The point is ,Pakistan tried the same when it tried to capture Kashmir (twice). Only difference is Pakistan failed in its objectives.
*So now by what right does Pakistan asks for plebiscite??
*


AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Bringing in Baluchistan is like arguing over Indian Punjab and the Maoist States becoming independent - not the same thing as the disputed territory of Kashmir, whose people were promised a plebiscite to determine their future status as part of India or Pakistan.



*This Pakistan's perspective..India's POV is kashmir as much a part of India as Punjab or as Balochistan is Pakistan's.*

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

indianrabbit said:


> Plebiscite cannot be held after 63 year. The time is entirely different. I want to know was there a demand of plebiscite around 50's and was Pakistan working as hard as today for that? My understanding is till 1980's there was no violence in Kashmir. I also visited Kashmir as tourist at that time. This means people were happy. So the people who are agitating now are the ones who would have voted in 1950.


Plebiscite can be held so long as the dispute remains unresolved. The principle behind the plebiscite was to allow the residents of Kashmir to determine their future status as part of India or Pakistan - the people currently residing there are just as much residents of Kashmir as those who were there in 1947, and therefore the principle of 'plebiscite to resolve the dispute' is still a valid one

There can be changes in how the plebiscite is carried out (district wise, region wise -Jammu, Laddakh and Kashmir - etc.) and there is obviously a need for a degree of ground work to be completed before such a move (tracking down people like the pandits and Kashmiris who moved out of kashmir) as much as is possible), but the principle itself is valid and the exercise still very much feasible.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> .
> 
> The point is ,Pakistan tried the same when it tried to capture Kashmir (twice). Only difference is Pakistan failed in its objectives.
> *So now by what right does Pakistan asks for plebiscite??
> *


Pakistan resorted to force because India refused to honor its commitment to the UNSC resolutions and hold a plebiscite (read history and Nehru and other Indian leader's comments). The blame here lies with India's decision to withdraw from her commitment to plebiscite and deny the Kashmiris the right to plebiscite promised them.


> *This Pakistan's perspective..India's POV is kashmir as much a part of India as Punjab or as Balochistan is Pakistan's.*


This is the global POV and the UN POV, given the UN resolutions, which implicitly declare the region disputed (since they call for a plebiscite to determine final status of J&K).

So just because India clings to a daydream does not make it reality nor does it equate Baluchistan or Indian Punjab to J&K.


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## Areesh

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> .
> 
> The point is ,Pakistan tried the same when it tried to capture Kashmir (twice). Only difference is Pakistan failed in its objectives.
> *So now by what right does Pakistan asks for plebiscite??
> *
> 
> 
> *This Pakistan's perspective..India's POV is kashmir as much a part of India as Punjab or as Balochistan is Pakistan's.*




Indian POV is wrong. Kashmir is a disputed territory.


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## Hulk

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Plebiscite can be held so long as the dispute remains unresolved. The principle behind the plebiscite was to allow the residents of Kashmir to determine their future status as part of India or Pakistan - the people currently residing there are just as much residents of Kashmir as those who were there in 1947, and therefore the principle of 'plebiscite to resolve the dispute' is still a valid one
> 
> There can be changes in how the plebiscite is carried out (district wise, region wise -Jammu, Laddakh and Kashmir - etc.) and there is obviously a need for a degree of ground work to be completed before such a move (tracking down people like the pandits and Kashmiris who moved out of kashmir) as much as is possible), but the principle itself is valid and the exercise still very much feasible.



We are disadvantage now, as I asked you there was no violence till 80's and hence plebiscite at that time would have been in India's favor. Now I suspect that with charged environment it will not be possible.

However this is what I propose.
1) Help us restore peace in Kashmir
2) Get Kashmir' pandits back.
3) Maintain peace for 15 years
4) Find out ways to identify orignal Kamshmiri's from Pakistan's Kashmir
5) Same for China's Kashmir
6) Let India, Pakistan and China agree that they will abide by it.
then I am ready for it, as those conditions will be similar to 1947.


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## k_n

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> There can be changes in how the plebiscite is carried out (district wise, region wise -Jammu, Laddakh and Kashmir - etc.) and there is obviously a need for a degree of ground work to be completed before such a move (tracking down people like the pandits and Kashmiris who moved out of kashmir) as much as is possible), but the principle itself is valid and the exercise still very much feasible.



Talking of ground work , dismantling of United Jihad Council and the infrastructure that supports its activities , its funding channels ... extradition of its leadership ( spl. of Kashmiri origin ) to India ... uprooting the L-e-T and Jaish bases on Pak soil and Pak-held Kashmir , keeping their leadership in custody or house arrest and a complete ban on their propaganda aimed at recruitment of young Pak nationals for carrying out 'war' in J & K and in India followed by de-millitarization of Kashmir on both sides are just a few tasks that must be added to the list


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## javaman

Areesh said:


> Indian POV is wrong. Kashmir is a disputed territory.



it's 4 u ppl,4 us it's an integral part


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Pakistan resorted to force because India refused to honor its commitment to the UNSC resolutions and hold a plebiscite (read history and Nehru and other Indian leader's comments). The blame here lies with India's decision to withdraw from her commitment to plebiscite and deny the Kashmiris the right to plebiscite promised them.



That was the second time pakistan attacked kashmir in1965 *(first time in 1947- why didn't you ask for Plebiscite before attacking in 47) *and failed..now it has been 45yrs since then.Once you had a full scale war and were not able to achieve your objective , how can you go back to your pre 1965 position. 



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> This is the global POV and the UN POV, given the *UN resolutions,* which implicitly declare the region disputed (since they call for a plebiscite to determine final status of J&K).
> 
> So just because India clings to a daydream does not make it reality nor does it equate Baluchistan or Indian Punjab to J&K.



*UNSC resolution 47 on Kashmir in neither time bound nor mandatory*..it is only applicable when both the states agree to it...and clearly India does not agree to it.

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## Spring Onion

karan.1970 said:


> "_Humko maaloom hai jannat ki haqeeat lekin,
> Dil ke khush rakhne ko Ghalib ye khayal achcha hai_"



Aur they say 

Yaran-e-jahan kehtay hain Kashmir ha Jannat

Jannat kisi kafir ko mili ha na milay gee

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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Jana said:


> Aur they say
> 
> Yaran-e-jahan kehtay hain *Kashmir ha Jannat*
> 
> *Jannat* kisi *kafir* ko mili ha na milay gee



*The joke is on Pakistanis ..India already has Kashmir....bas Pakistan ko nasib nahin ho rha.*

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## k_n

> Pakistan resorted to force because India refused to honor its commitment to the UNSC resolutions and hold a plebiscite (read history and Nehru and other Indian leader's comments). The blame here lies with India's decision to withdraw from her commitment to plebiscite and deny the Kashmiris the right to plebiscite promised them.



Indian Govt resorted to moving in troops and enforcing AFSPA when Pakistan created and aided financially and materially the millitants who were targeting state and central govt structure in the state . 

The fight for fair and free expression of political will of Kashmiris in Indian Union was soon transformed into a 'Holy War' against infidels leading to complete break down in law and order and total lack of security of life and property for not just the Hindu inhabitants in valley but of anyone who was suspected to be siding with the State/ Central Govt . , local police or the armed forces . 

The blame lies with Pakistan for creating law and order problem of massive proportions in J & K and for the cleansing of Hindu Kashmiris from the valley .


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## SpArK




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## javaman

Jana said:


> Aur they say
> 
> Yaran-e-jahan kehtay hain Kashmir ha Jannat
> 
> Jannat kisi kafir ko mili ha na milay gee



nahi milegi aapko ,don't worry.

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## asq

Dash said:


> Tell me why did u want Hydrabad???...
> 
> Trust me these discussions will take us to history, and we will keep digging it up until our steps bleed.
> 
> You guys were then so intelligent that you gave some to China. It was good for India. Now do a pool, we will call all kahmiri Pandits scattered across India.



did u read my details about forcible taking over by India of all the princely states instead of allowing the promised to accept the people choice.


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## asq

javaman said:


> nahi milegi aapko ,don't worry.


 

yunan misr romaa, sab mit gaye jahan se
ab tak magar he baaki, namo nishan hamaara

kuchh baat he ki hasti, mitati nahi hamaari
sadiyon raha he dushman, daure jahan hamaara

iqbal koi marhoom, apna nahi jahan main
maloom kya kisi ko, darde niha hamaara

Read. learn, understand deep meaning by Iqbal's poetry.


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## asq

prithwidw said:


> Death to all terrorists.



Nonsense, they are freedom fighters and India is illegal occupier.

oppression is the norm.

India must not be allowed to use the term 

"biggest democracy of the world as it continue to kill and not allow once for all the choice by the people."

Biggest Democracy no sway.


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## Jade

Saquibk said:


> India can gain a moral high ground by holding a referendum. Why is a democracy like India shying away from referendum, which will solve this thorny issue.



Democracy doesnt mean go on holding referendums until noting remains. 

Anyway what moral high ground that your are talking that India doesnt have now. I havent seen any International media articles or any International leader demonizing India

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## Solomon2

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Pakistan resorted to force because India refused to honor its commitment to the UNSC resolutions -


India and Pakistan had just resolved border issues in the Rann of Kutch area, so diplomacy had been moving forward when the GoP decided to pick a fight with India in 1965: Pakistani "infiltrators" tried to stir up an insurrection, but when locals alerted Indian authorities Pakistan turned to conventional war instead. In doing so Pakistani leaders betrayed the trust of the United States that they would use American weapons and their American-trained army for defensive purposes only - and, i guess, the trust of Kashmiris that they would be allowed to choose their own fate.

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## asq

RAHUL INDIAN said:


> bro determination is among highest in Indian army among the world...they are fighting for decades....the commitment and dedication is unmatched....



only when they kill untrained folks.

they cannot stand up to Pak Army.

they keep say that Pak. army is sending these guys, what are going to about it.


They only like to kill innocent folks. 

Fight like men and stop killing innocent and if u continue than stop using the word the Biggest democracy of the world because u r not when u do such dispicable things to humans.


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## RescueRanger

Soo much frustration...

I honestly think they should introduce somthing like bladerunner (under UN supervision) it would be a wonderful way for nations to burn off that pent up frustration...


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## javaman

asq said:


> yunan misr romaa, sab mit gaye jahan se
> ab tak magar he baaki, namo nishan hamaara
> 
> kuchh baat he ki hasti, mitati nahi hamaari
> sadiyon raha he dushman, daure jahan hamaara
> 
> iqbal koi marhoom, apna nahi jahan main
> maloom kya kisi ko, darde niha hamaara
> 
> Read. learn, understand deep meaning by Iqbal's poetry.



i loved this,i have read this in my school days.i understood frm this is that no one can destroy india,or take our land frm us.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Solomon2 said:


> India and Pakistan had just resolved border issues in the Rann of Kutch area, so diplomacy had been moving forward when the GoP decided to pick a fight with India in 1965: Pakistani "infiltrators" tried to stir up an insurrection, but when locals alerted Indian authorities Pakistan turned to conventional war instead. In doing so Pakistani leaders betrayed the trust of the United States that they would use American weapons and their American-trained army for defensive purposes only - and, i guess, the trust of Kashmiris that they would be allowed to choose their own fate.


How does any of the above address the issue of the continued violation of India's commitment and promise to the Kashmiris of plebiscite in Kashmir?

Diplomacy alone had not resolved the Rann of Kutch dispute - it was in fact military conflict, in which Pakistan was perceived to be successful to a degree, that possibly pushed towards both the resolution of Sir Creek through greater diplomacy, as well as the Pakistani attempt to replicate that 'military conflict' in Kashmir in 65 to push the Indians to resolve the dispute.

And broader conventional war in 1965 was initiated by the Indians in response to the infiltration attempt - at that point the use of conventional forces by Pakistan was justified lest it lose more Kashmiri territory in the face of a conventional Indian military assault.


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## Optimus

asq said:


> only when they kill untrained folks.
> 
> they cannot stand up to Pak Army.
> 
> they keep say that Pak. army is sending these guys, what are going to about it.
> 
> 
> They only like to kill innocent folks.
> 
> Fight like men and stop killing innocent and if u continue than stop using Biggest democracy of the world.




Yes we should first ask any person who crosses the border whether he was trained properly or not or atleast if he had a crash course in handling his AK47 and then shoot him.

As for your remark of Pakistani Army supporting terrorists... Ohh Sorry Pro Freedom Insurgents... The world knows and see the current status of Pakistanis in the worlds view


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

k_n said:


> Indian Govt resorted to moving in troops and enforcing AFSPA when Pakistan created and aided financially and materially the millitants who were targeting state and central govt structure in the state .
> 
> The fight for fair and free expression of political will of Kashmiris in Indian Union was soon transformed into a 'Holy War' against infidels leading to complete break down in law and order and total lack of security of life and property for not just the Hindu inhabitants in valley but of anyone who was suspected to be siding with the State/ Central Govt . , local police or the armed forces .
> 
> The blame lies with Pakistan for creating law and order problem of massive proportions in J & K and for the cleansing of Hindu Kashmiris from the valley .


False - India violated her commitment to plebiscite and her promise to the Kashmiris in the fifties, when Nehru articulated his position of converting the LoC to the IB and rejecting the need for a plebiscite, and the GoI moved to integrate the territory into its constitution.

'Pakistan creating a law and order problem in the valley' is nothing but a canard since the Indian decision to not implement its commitment of plebiscite had occurred long before Pakistan's covert involvement in J&K, as pointed out in the first para.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

k_n said:


> Talking of ground work , dismantling of United Jihad Council and the infrastructure that supports its activities , its funding channels ... extradition of its leadership ( spl. of Kashmiri origin ) to India ... uprooting the L-e-T and Jaish bases on Pak soil and Pak-held Kashmir , keeping their leadership in custody or house arrest and a complete ban on their propaganda aimed at recruitment of young Pak nationals for carrying out 'war' in J & K and in India followed by de-millitarization of Kashmir on both sides are just a few tasks that must be added to the list



As soon as India officially agrees to allowing a plebiscite by a neutral party, pending the agreement of certain conditions and ground rules between India and Pakistan.


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## asq

jade1982 said:


> Democracy doesnt mean go on holding referendums until noting remains.
> 
> Anyway what moral high ground that your are talking that India doesnt have now. I havent seen any International media articles or any International leader demonizing India



Why do Indian make mockery of things like referendum/plebiscite by saying that how many times it has to be held.

What a shame.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

indianrabbit said:


> We are disadvantage now, as I asked you there was no violence till 80's and hence plebiscite at that time would have been in India's favor. Now I suspect that with charged environment it will not be possible.


That is completely speculative - the only way to judge Kashmiri opinion would be to hold a plebiscite. In NWFP the people had elected a pro-India and pro-Congress party of KAGK, yet when it was time for a plebiscite the overwhelming majority of people voted for Pakistan, and not India. Domestic politics in a region cannot necessarily be used to extrapolate potential decisions on an international scale.


> However this is what I propose.
> 1) Help us restore peace in Kashmir
> 2) Get Kashmir' pandits back.
> 3) Maintain peace for 15 years
> 4) Find out ways to identify orignal Kamshmiri's from Pakistan's Kashmir
> 5) Same for China's Kashmir
> 6) Let India, Pakistan and China agree that they will abide by it.
> then I am ready for it, as those conditions will be similar to 1947.


Overall I have no issue with your conditions, but the question is whether India will budge from its current stance and agree to the basic principle of settling the dispute through a plebiscite (district wise, region wise or a single one), provided certain conditions agreed to by India and Pakistan are met.


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## asq

javaman said:


> i loved this,i have read this in my school days.i understood frm this is that no one can destroy india,or take our land frm us.


 

Now this applies to Pakistan.


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## Areesh

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> *The joke is on Pakistanis ..India already has Kashmir....bas Pakistan ko nasib nahin ho rha.*



The one we have is a jannat. The one you have was a jannat converted into hell now.

Because 

Jannat kisi kafir ko mili ha na milay gee


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## Abu Zolfiqar

s6demon said:


> times of India, so the real story is probably that they killed 6 innocent Muslim Kashmiris and are now calling them terrorists.



according to locals, one of them was not even a protestor. He was just on his way to the Mosque, but indian forces bullets hit him

the hindustanys shouldnt even bother using the ''militants'' card anymore. It's futile.

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## javaman

asq said:


> Now this applies to Pakistan.



no one is taking ur land frm u.whatever india's will remain indian.wat i understood will always right.

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## asq

BENNY said:


> YouTube - Kashmeer Song - Khuda Se Mannat Hai Meri


















Shame on Indian Army beating the shi.... out of an unarmed person.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Areesh said:


> The one we have is a jannat. The one you have was a jannat *converted into hell now.*
> 
> Because
> 
> Jannat kisi kafir ko mili ha na milay gee



*So all this fight for "Jahnum" ??*

So acc. to you, you have your "jannat"..*so be content with it ..don't eye our "jahnum".*

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## Areesh

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> *So all this fight for "Jahnum" ??*
> 
> So acc. to you, you have your "jannat"..*so be content with it ..don't eye our "jahnum".*



We want to convert it back to Jannat.


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## javaman

Areesh said:


> The one we have is a jannat. The one you have was a jannat converted into hell now.
> 
> Because
> 
> Jannat kisi kafir ko mili ha na milay gee



u want this hell,anyway army will come and make this heaven as like b4.
u wrote very well 
*Jannat kisi kafir ko mili ha na milay gee*


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## Hulk

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That is completely speculative - the only way to judge Kashmiri opinion would be to hold a plebiscite. In NWFP the people had elected a pro-India and pro-Congress party of KAGK, yet when it was time for a plebiscite the overwhelming majority of people voted for Pakistan, and not India. Domestic politics in a region cannot necessarily be used to extrapolate potential decisions on an international scale.
> 
> Overall I have no issue with your conditions, but the question is whether India will budge from its current stance and agree to the basic principle of settling the dispute through a plebiscite (district wise, region wise or a single one), provided certain conditions agreed to by India and Pakistan are met.



If you agree, I agree however practically I do not see India is going to do that, nor China will accept it, plus it will be way too difficult to get those conditions met. I am just trying to be honest.

What it means is complete peace and then 15 years.


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## Areesh

javaman said:


> u want this hell,anyway army will come and make this heaven as like b4.
> u wrote very well
> *Jannat kisi kafir ko mili ha na milay gee*



Lolllzzz army.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Areesh said:


> We want to convert it back to Jannat.



*Be content with what you have.*..nahin to hamare jahnum ke chakar mein apni jannat bhi kho do ge.

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## asq

javaman said:


> no one is taking ur land frm u.whatever india's will remain indian.wat i understood will always right.



u have taken Kashmir and only if it is freed than will we believe ur concocted stories.


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## asq

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> *Be content with what you have.*..nahin to hamare jahnum ke chakar mein apni jannat bhi kho do ge.



Our young who believe in freedom struggle will continue as lond as Kashmir is not free, Waht r u foing to do about it.

Kill innocent when u cannot catch the fighters


Hold mock killings and kill innocent and claim they were infiltrators.

What a shame.


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## javaman

Areesh said:


> Lolllzzz army.



ya ya,govt has decided to put the situation under army control.2000 crpf personnel are being sent.


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## Areesh

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> *Be content with what you have.*..nahin to hamare jahnum ke chakar mein apni jannat bhi kho do ge.



That's not going to happen dear. Your hell is bound to get Heaven.


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## javaman

asq said:


> u have taken Kashmir and only if it is freed than will we believe ur concocted stories.



it was given under our control from the starting,now we r defending it.means defending our given land justtttttt

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## asq

schneider said:


> it is our internal matter. Kashmir is an Integral Part of the Union of India. They have right to demonstrate because they are Indians and its a democracy.



Say who, not the UN.
u concocted this story by ur self. and u have to bear the consequences.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Areesh said:


> That's not going to happen dear. Your hell is bound to get Heaven.



 ....

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## asq

Dash said:


> what will happen then, soldiers left the place for winter and Mujahiddins took over the posts.
> 
> Clearly shows the intention..
> 
> You can argue this, but I say this is bad move, at least in international forums...



all of the Kashmir including siachan is a disputed territory so freedom fighter will fight on.


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## asq

javaman said:


> it was given under our control from the starting,now we r defending it.means defending our given land justtttttt



No it was not u forcibly took it as u did in Hyderabad, junagarh and OTHER PRINCELY STATES.


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## asq

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> *Be content with what you have.*..nahin to hamare jahnum ke chakar mein apni jannat bhi kho do ge.



Go ahead make my day.


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## Solomon2

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How does any of the above address the issue of the continued violation of India's commitment and promise to the Kashmiris of plebiscite in Kashmir?



It meant that Pakistan could no longer be counted among the angels in seeking a peaceful resolution. Diplomacy had not yet exhausted its possibilities - though India certainly waved a red flag when it moved to normalize Kashmir.



> Diplomacy alone had not resolved the Rann of Kutch dispute - it was in fact military conflict, in which Pakistan was perceived to be successful to a degree -


The Rann of Kutch conflict was not really the fault of either Pakistan or India, but a border issue dating back to the days of British rule. Apparently considering this a "Pakistani military success" whetted the appetites of Pakistan's leaders for more.



> And broader conventional war in 1965 was initiated by the Indians in response to the infiltration attempt -


The infiltrators were too heavily armed to be dealt with by police alone, and they had support from the PA, so of course that started a conventional war. In my opinion, the infiltrators should have been withdrawn as soon as they realized they were facing a hostile population and thus could not be seen as liberators.

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## Areesh

javaman said:


> ya ya,govt has decided to put the situation under army control.2000 crpf personnel are being sent.



You are wasting your time. It is futile. Better send them to fight maoists. It would be more productive for India.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Areesh said:


> You are wasting your time. It is futile. Better send them to fight maoists. It would be more productive for India.



*We will welcome Pakistan's advice, once you are able to counter your own insurgencies. *

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## Areesh

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> *We will welcome Pakistan's advice, once you are able to counter your own insurgencies. *



We are countering them and in a most best manner. Don't worry.


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## Areesh

*3 more die in Kashmir firing *



> SRINAGAR: Three more youths were killed and five injured, as police opened fire to break up a demonstration in Anantnag, Jammu and Kashmir on Tuesday. Many more were wounded in daylong clashes. The situation in north Kashmir remained tense, with most of the areas under curfew.
> 
> Reports from Anantnag said the three youths were killed when police fired at a crowd that was staging a protest against the death of five youths in north Kashmir in the past three days. *Shouting anti-India slogans, *the protesters were taking out a march when the police intercepted them. Witnesses said the police chased them down before opening fire.
> 
> *Ishtiyaq Khandey (15) and Imtiaz Ahmad (17) were declared brought dead in the local hospital and Sajad ul Islam (19) died of his injuries on way to hospital. Of the five injured, the condition of one was stated to be critical.*
> 
> As news about the killings spread, thousands of people took to the streets. The police again opened fire, but this time in the air. More police and CRPF personnel have been deployed in south Kashmir.
> 
> Police officers are tight-lipped about who was involved in the firing, but did not blame the CRPF either. Showkat Malik, Senior Superintendent of Police, Anantnag said he cannot talk as he was busy with the law and order situation. Deputy Commissioner Jaipal Singh said: &#8220;We do not know who opened fire.&#8221;
> 
> Meanwhile, the situation in north Kashmir remained tense. The curfew was extended to Baramulla too, as protests spread to the peripheries of Sopore and Baramulla. People defied the curfew at various places in Sopore and mobs staged rallies in Baramulla, defying the restrictions clamped under Section 144. At least four persons were injured. Angry youth fought pitched battles with police on the peripheries of Sopore and staged rallies. The police retaliated with teargas shells and batons. The situation in the interior parts of the town, which has been under curfew since Friday evening, remains serious.



 3 more die in Kashmir firing 

Just look at the ages of these kids.


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## Hulk

Areesh said:


> *3 more die in Kashmir firing *
> 
> 
> 
> 3 more die in Kashmir firing
> 
> Just look at the ages of these kids.



It is sad that more people lost life but it is more sad that people in India are still Jungle. Every time you make violent protest there will be counter measure to contain it. It mostly results in death, in all parts of India. So it is up to those idiots also to understand this.


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## Areesh

indianrabbit said:


> It is sad that more people lost life but it is more sad that people in India are still Jungle. Every time you make violent protest there will be counter measure to contain it. It mostly results in death, in all parts of India. So it is up to those idiots also to understand this.



OK say whatever you like but don't call them idiots. Especially for the dead ones.


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## Hulk

Areesh said:


> OK say whatever you like but don't call them idiots. Especially for the dead ones.



I am sorry I used that word but I am frustrated that some people are so careless. I know this for 20 years now that when you go for protest you should expect police firing, which can result in death. This is not just in Kashmir, we have number of such incidence all over India.

My point is why these people do not think about their parents? If you have a problem then use peaceful means or you do not know. In that matter I feel Kashmir's are worst behaved people, I hardly care for their protest as they are habitual protesters, worst they are in paid stone pelting business.

If they have any problem they should first learn to solve it the right way. The protest on Amaranth yatra was a big proof on their level of idiocy. That issue was easily solvable by just talks, but these idiots resorted to violent protest, and ever since then I have no respect for them. I have not someone who is going to hide it.

When they throw stone do they think it can kill hurt a CRPF man? They do not give importance to others life. I saw one poster sometime back a person throwing stone from 2 feet to a CRPF men standing defensive. Is that not violence?

Violence gives birth to violence stop it from your side and I will be there to support you.

If Kashmiri's behave the right way and anyone is killed, I will stand with them, unfortunately they are not well behaved.


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## Saquibk

jade1982 said:


> Democracy doesnt mean go on holding referendums until noting remains.
> 
> Anyway what moral high ground that your are talking that India doesnt have now. I havent seen any International media articles or any International leader demonizing India



India not complying with UN resolutions.


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## Frankenstein

seems lyk I missed alot of fun


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## Evil Flare

Frankenstein said:


> seems lyk I missed alot of fun




Fun ??????


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## RollingStones

indianrabbit said:


> I am sorry I used that word but I am frustrated that some people are so careless. I know this for 20 years now that when you go for protest you should expect police firing, which can result in death. This is not just in Kashmir, we have number of such incidence all over India.
> 
> My point is why these people do not think about their parents? If you have a problem then use peaceful means or you do not know. In that matter I feel Kashmir's are worst behaved people, I hardly care for their protest as they are habitual protesters, worst they are in paid stone pelting business.
> 
> If they have any problem they should first learn to solve it the right way. The protest on Amaranth yatra was a big proof on their level of idiocy. That issue was easily solvable by just talks, but these idiots resorted to violent protest, and ever since then I have no respect for them. I have not someone who is going to hide it.
> 
> When they throw stone do they think it can kill hurt a CRPF man? They do not give importance to others life. I saw one poster sometime back a person throwing stone from 2 feet to a CRPF men standing defensive. Is that not violence?
> 
> Violence gives birth to violence stop it from your side and I will be there to support you.
> 
> If Kashmiri's behave the right way and anyone is killed, I will stand with them, unfortunately they are not well behaved.



They are in "Stone Pelting Business" because they need money. They need social security and jobs. The thing is these people do not recognize that they are driving industry away from Kashmir through their actions and depriving themselves of precious jobs. The whole situation does not make sense to me. If they want freedom, they should achieve that in the quickest possible time and then get on with their economic development. If they dont, they need to stop protesting and work to creating a meaningful atmosphere. Right now, they are shooting themselves in the foot.

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## asq

javaman said:


> it was given under our control from the starting,now we r defending it.means defending our given land justtttttt



u took it by force by threatening raja, what a shame. threatening people, it continue till today, i see threats and intimidations and rude talk from Indians.

have no civility, no respect for Democracy and no respect for Humans life.


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## Hulk

RollingStones said:


> They are in "Stone Pelting Business" because they need money. They need social security and jobs. The thing is these people do not recognize that they are driving industry away from Kashmir through their actions and depriving themselves of precious jobs. The whole situation does not make sense to me. If they want freedom, they should achieve that in the quickest possible time and then get on with their economic development. If they dont, they need to stop protesting and work to creating a meaningful atmosphere. Right now, they are shooting themselves in the foot.



Absolutely my point, they are making no effort to get peace. It is very easy IMO.


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## Areesh

*Protests spread to south Kashmir, 3 teens killed in firing in Anantnag*




> Three teenage boys were killed after police and CRPF fired at protesters in Anantnag today, taking the civilian death toll in the last 18 days in the Valley to 11. *The anger and protests have spread to south Kashmir, and today&#8217;s deaths provoked widespread violence that left two government buildings, a police post and scores of government vehicles in flames.*
> 
> At Safakadal in Srinagar city, the CRPF allegedly fired on an ambulance, smashing the windshield. Driver Ghulam Mohammad and doctor Mohammad Yaqoob had a close shave. At Sangam on the Srinagar-Jammu highway, the CRPF allegedly stopped another ambulance carrying some wounded demonstrators to Srinagar, and beat up the driver.
> 
> &#8220;It is disgusting. They have started firing at our ambulances,&#8221; said Dr Waseem Qureshi, Medical Superintendent of SMHS Hospital . &#8220;How will we bring the injured to hospital?&#8221;



Protests spread to south Kashmir, 3 teens killed in firing in Anantnag


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## blueoval79

I like the timing of these protests......Just in time for Amarnath Yatra.....


Anyone else smells a fish here....

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## ejaz007

RollingStones said:


> They are in "Stone Pelting Business" because they need money. They need social security and jobs. The thing is these people do not recognize that they are driving industry away from Kashmir through their actions and depriving themselves of precious jobs. The whole situation does not make sense to me. If they want freedom, they should achieve that in the quickest possible time and then get on with their economic development. If they dont, they need to stop protesting and work to creating a meaningful atmosphere. Right now, they are shooting themselves in the foot.



Care to explain how can they achieve freedom in quickest possible way. Kashmiris had been demanding freedom peacfully from 1947 till 1989. It did not work and Indians did not paid any attention. Then they took up arms. Atleast that brought the Indians to the negotiation tables and they do accept that their is a problem. It is not only hearting Kashmiris but also India. Maintaining 700000 men strong armed forces is expensive and sooner or later India shall start to feel the pressure.


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## ejaz007

*Army called in as Held Kashmir boils again*

* * Three more killed as security forces fire at stone-pelting mob 
* 13 people injured in fresh clashes across IHK 
* Mobile services blocked 
* Chidambaram pledges support to IHK govt 
* Blames anti-national elements for trying to exploit the situation*

By Iftikhar Gilani

NEW DELHI: The Indian-held Kashmir government sought the armys help on Tuesday and imposed a curfew in the region to control continuing unrest, when firing by security personnel on stone-pelting protesters left three more people dead. The army moved in Sopore and the adjoining Baramulla township, as violence spread to South Kashmir and more areas of North Kashmir. 

At least 13 people were injured in fresh clashes between protesters and security forces across the valley, police said.

On Tuesday, deaths were reported from the southern Anantnag district where protesters had gathered on the streets. Police identified the killed protesters as Ishfaq Ahmed Khanday, Imtiyaz Ahmad Itoo and Shujatul Islam. The victims were part of a mob hurling stones at Central Reserve Police Force personnel in Anchidoora in Anantnag town, 55 kilometres of Srinagar, police said. 

Locals alleged that the CRPF personnel barged into houses and shops while chasing a violent mob protesting the rise in killings by security forces, and shot the victims in a house and a bakery. Death toll in the firings has reached to eight in a week. Two people had died in CRPF firing in Sopore and Baramulla on Monday. 

Reports of violence were also reported from across the valley in Kupwara, Bandipur, Budgam, Pulwama Kangan and Sumbal areas.

In the northern town of Kupwara, at least five protestors and four policemen were injured when CRPF and police resorted to baton-charge and teargas shelling to disperse hundreds of people from Kupwara and adjoining areas who protested and tried to march towards Sopore. Massive protests were also held in nearby Handwara. Protestors from Rajwar, Handwara and Kulangam assembled at the Handwara Chowk to march towards Sopore. 

Services blocked: Under the current situation, mobile services in North Kashmir and SMS service in the entire valley were blocked on the instructions of the government. 

Separately, Indian Home Minister P Chidambaram pledged support to the IHK government to enforce curfew restrictions sternly and end rioting. In a statement after a high-level meeting of security chiefs to review the situation in IHK, the minister blamed anti-national elements for attempting to exploit the situation, and appealed to the people to help restore law and order. 

Anti-state elements: There are reliable reports that anti-national elements are trying to exploit the situation. Some militants may also have sneaked into the valley to trigger violence. I appeal to all those who believe in peace and development to stand by the state government and help it restore law and order, he added.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## skg

when was the last time any new country was made in this world? bosnia? serbia? atleast they have some resources to survive. what kashmir has? pakistan? if kashmir becomes independent or part of pakistan, pakistan will steal all the water from kashmir and make them cry like baluchistan. personally i want to get rid of kashmir for good and want to live peacefully in my own country. but if the kashmir is given based on the hindu, muslim division, i would like to have all the muslims from india be gone to kashmir or pakistan for good. i am treating my muslim brothers as my brothers because i never felt my country is devided based on my religion because i see my muslim brothers everyday in my life..but if kashmir needs to be seperated because they are muslims, i would ask all my muslim brethern to rethink where they belong and expect them to belong where they need to be..i think that makes sense..

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## blueoval79

ejaz007 said:


> Care to explain how can they achieve freedom in quickest possible way. Kashmiris had been demanding freedom peacfully from 1947 till 1989.


Not Kashmiris...but Pakistan has been jumping all over the world forums saying that......and Pakistan can continue to do for for scouple of more centuries....as if it matters.



> It did not work and Indians did not paid any attention. Then they took up arms.


Or ...the terrorists started coming in from Pakistan...and Killing kashmiri Pundits...and things went out of hand so army was called in ....



> Atleast that brought the Indians to the negotiation tables and they do accept that their is a problem.


You think so.....all India has to do is stop talking to Pakistan and Pakistani leadership will go round and round ...jumping all over the world that look ...India is not talking....India is not talking....



> It is not only hearting Kashmiris but also India.


Care to look at whats it has done to Pakistan.....Support terrorism ...and it has a funny way of getting back at you... 




> Maintaining 700000 men strong armed forces is expensive and sooner or later India shall start to feel the pressure.


Guess What....more than army there are Police and CRPF ...and that too local Kashmiri men....sos there is a pseudo economy going on there.....so relax...everything is being taken care of.....I mean we have enough money to take care of that.

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## vsdoc

I simply do not understand the sense of sending in these thullas covered in what looks like a padded rajai, a WWII helmet with a steel grill visor, and a lathio in hand man. Against guys chucking rocks at them. 

There has to be a middle ground between lathis and throwing rocks back (today's newspaper had a photo of some thulls gathered around a wheelbarrow collecting brick pieces to chuck back!) and the use of live ammunition as a last ditch measure.

The security forces need much better body armour. Nothing fancy, but why not basic sports quality hard guards at least? Like elbow and forearm, knee and shin, hip and thigh, back, as well as motocross style upper body armor with shoulder and chest protector integrated as well? It would not cost more than 5000 bucks at most. Can't we spend that much on each policeman?

Secondly, the world over riot police have guns that fire non-lethal rubber bullets. Why not fire those at the stone pelters? Yes you could lose an eye or a testicle, but I find it hard to imagine rallies with green flags in Sopore or Anantnag over a young man minus one testicle. And it would give other young men something to think about before they accept their daily wages for stoning on hire.

Thirdly, as way back as the early 90s the Indian Army MP has had these electrical prods and tasers. Crude but very effective. And once hit, you develop this sudden overpowering lifelong urge not to experience it again! After all, there's something spectaculary un-heroic and un-inspiring about a "pro-freedom insurgent" going into grotesque tonic-clonic paroxysms on the ground as his bladder and anal sphincters lose all tone and violently expel their contents involuntarily.



Cheers, Doc

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## Areesh

*Indian Occupied Kashmir locked down in bid to stem* protests




> SRINAGAR, India  Thousands of Indian troops enforced a strict curfew in parts of Kashmir on Wednesday, after three teenagers were shot dead by security forces, sparking arson and rioting.
> Six people have been killed in the last four days and 11 in less than three weeks during demonstrations against the killing of Kashmiris by Indian forces which began with the death of a schoolboy earlier this month.
> Each death has sparked a new cycle of violence and state chief minister Omar Abdullah appealed Tuesday for calm and for people to stay in their homes.
> A curfew is in force in northern Sopore town for the fifth day running and neighbourhoods have been locked down in the Kashmiri summer capital Srinagar and other towns in Muslim-majority Kashmir valley.
> The fatal shootings on Tuesday, in which three teenagers died, took place in southern Anantnag district, about 55 kilometres (34 miles) south of the Kashmiri summer capital Srinagar.
> Residents claimed the three were not part of the protest and crowds set fire to state-owned trucks, ambulances and a petrol pump in retaliation, according to police.
> *The protesters marched though the town chanting "Blood for Blood!".
> *"Strict curfew is in force in the town and its adjoining villages," police officer Showket Ahmed said.
> Indian Kashmir has been wracked by street protests since June 11, when a 17-year-old student died after being hit by a teargas shell fired by police during a pro-independence demonstration in Srinagar.
> The violence is seen as a major test for Abdullah, who came to power last year promising to improve human rights.
> Even where curfews were not in place Wednesday, life came to standstill because of a general strike called for the second day running by separatists. Shops, schools and offices were closed.
> India has an estimated 500,000 soldiers in Kashmir, which is jointly administered by India and Pakistan, a legacy of British colonial rule on the subcontinent.
> Both countries claim Kashmir in full, however, and have fought two of their three wars over it.



Indian Occupied Kashmir locked down in bid to stem protests


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## Awesome

Freedom of Kashmiris is supreme. I think India is simply disregarding the amount of disdain the Kashmiris have for India. No amount of weaponry, torture and physical abuse would deter this drive for freedom.


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## Arjun MBT

Asim Aquil said:


> Freedom of Kashmiris is supreme. I think India is simply disregarding the amount of disdain the Kashmiris have for India. No amount of weaponry, torture and physical abuse would deter this drive for freedom.



Law and Order is common for everyone.... And if they disturb the law and order, Not only in J&K but in any part of India,Police does the same, lathi charge, but In Srinagar its More, as There are foreign Elements Involved.... Thats it.... and No one can take kashmir from us... 

Only a day dreamer can, and that too in his dreams


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## M8R

vsdoc said:


> And it would give other young men something to think about before they accept their daily wages for stoning on hire.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Yes; they're doing it just for money - In fact people in Kashmir are very happy - Sab Acha hay.Denial at it's best.

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## moha199

s6demon said:


> YouTube - kashmir bleeding
> 
> 
> more of indian army's doing in Kashmir.



funny hot none of the indian members has anything to say about this. This is the root cause or all the problems but wait. Indian media wouldn't show this so this kind of videos would be alian for indians


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## vsdoc

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;964733 said:


> Yes; they're doing it just for money - In fact people in Kashmir are very happy - Sab Acha hay.Denial at it's best.



Brother, please give us some credit for intelligence here. 

I can tell you that every one of 1.2 billion Indians, wherever they live in the world, could have predicted and given to you guys in writing on sau rupaye ka stamp paper what was going to happen in Kashmir bang on time to coincide with the visits of our people to your country to talk peace. 

No one in the world, least of all you guys, and us obviously, has any illusions as to what this latest drama in Kashmir is all about really, so please spare us your crocodile tears, and save them for your own countrymen and forces.

Sab acha hai bhai. Lakeer ke donon taraf. 

Stamp paper par kuch aur bhi likh sakta hun main, aane waale dinon mein, lekin woh to aap bhi jaante hain, toh kya fayda? Bekaar mein sau rupaye thuk jaayenge ..... 

Cheers, Doc

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## toxic_pus

vsdoc said:


> Thirdly, as way back as the early 90s the Indian Army MP has had these electrical prods and tasers. Crude but very effective. And once hit, you develop this sudden overpowering lifelong urge not to experience it again! After all, *there's something spectaculary un-heroic and un-inspiring about a "pro-freedom insurgent" going into grotesque tonic-clonic paroxysms on the ground as his bladder and anal sphincters lose all tone and violently expel their contents involuntarily.*




Daktaar saheb in his elements.


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## Jade

Saquibk said:


> India not complying with UN resolutions.




There is more to it than just India not complying with UN resolutions. It is not that simple

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## Arjun MBT

Army has to step in to control the situation, CRPF is handling it bad... Its a sensitive area.... Army has to come now


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## k_n

> False - India violated her commitment to plebiscite and her promise to the Kashmiris in the fifties, when Nehru articulated his position of converting the LoC to the IB and rejecting the need for a plebiscite, and the GoI moved to integrate the territory into its constitution.
> 
> 'Pakistan creating a law and order problem in the valley' is nothing but a canard since the Indian decision to not implement its commitment of plebiscite had occurred long before Pakistan's covert involvement in J&K, as pointed out in the first para.



You have engaged in this debate Zillions of times on different threads in this forum . 
Yes , New Delhi moved to integrate the territory into its constitution as a result of which J & K enjoys a degree of autonomy that no other state in the Indian Dominion possesses . Only the 'Kashmiri Muslim' constituency in the valley ( both North and South ) is dissatisfied ( has been in the past as well ) with the status of an Autonomous State within the Indian Constitution and have agitated for complete independence or secession to Pak . On the other hand Ladakh and Jammu region resent this 'special status' for J & K and want integration with the Union .
As I mentioned you are a seasoned debater , for the UN resolutions to be implemented there were certain obligations on BOTH India and Pakistan and BOTH didnt oblige .
Did someone say that Pakistan's implicit support to armed militant groups in Kashmir is a farce ? 
Take another look at your comment where you had declared India's turn around on the promise of conducting a plebiscite occurred before Pakistan's covert involvement . Your nation has been involved since 21 Sept 1947 , through and through . The elections in 1987 which were a farce gave your Govt and the Army another excuse to get involved in Kashmir once again albeit this time there was vast constituency in Kashmir that was more than just 'angry' with the GOI something that was not the case in 47 and 65 . Your leadership never sincerely went ahead in a dialogue with the ruler of the princely state prior to and immediately after partition . The move to defeat the unpopular ruler was accompanied by mass murder , looting and uprooting of the minority community from present day 'Azaad' J & K . 1965 has been discussed here more than enough times for you and other Pakistanis to learn and accept that Armed conflict and covert involvement was always a viable option for wresting Kashmir for your leadership . If there is a Muslim constituency in Kashmir valley dissatisfied with GOI for not letting them express their Right to Self-Determination then let it be between them and the GoI . 
I know you will again go back to the old assertion that Kashmir is dispute between three parties and not two . Well , then let me remind you that Kashmir ( rather J & K ) itself is not a single homogeneous constituency and the solution for J & K cannot be decided as per the whims and aspirations of Muslim Kashmiris ONLY . 

Any constituency having sympathy with the Pakistani view on Kashmir that evolves from TNT is unacceptable to GOI and Indians . Don't blame GOI when it flexes its muscle in containing the militancy and secessionists .

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## Areesh

Arjun MBT said:


> Calling some one dumbass dosent make Your army better My child....lol.... I proved You with your Own Source, and still u r in denial...lol....
> *Pakistan army*...



Well you haven't prove anything. You were just trolling. It is a fact that Pak Army's achievement against terrorism is much greater then any other military of the world. It is you who is denial about Pak Army ops in Swat and FATA. 

Any ways the way you are rolling on the floor it shows you are a dumbas*.


----------



## SpArK

Who is paying a Price in Kashmir - CRPF or Mob?


----------



## Areesh

Indian Occupied Kashmir locked down in bid to stem deadly protests



> Thousands of Indian troops enforced a strict curfew in parts of Kashmir Wednesday in a bid to stem three weeks of deadly protests that have claimed 11 lives and led to soaring tensions.
> 
> Six people have been killed in the last four days alone during demonstrations against the killing of Kashmiris by Indian security forces which began with the death of a schoolboy earlier this month.
> 
> *Each killing has sparked a new cycle of violence and state chief minister Omar Abdullah appealed Tuesday for calm and for people to stay in their homes, adding that widespread curfews would allow tempers to cool.
> *
> Northern Sopore town was locked down for the fifth day running and neighbourhoods are also under curfew in the Kashmiri summer capital Srinagar and other towns in the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley.
> 
> Fatal shootings by security forces on Tuesday claimed the lives of three teenagers in southern Anantnag district, about 55 kilometres (34 miles) south of Srinagar, which is also under curfew.
> 
> Indian Kashmir has been wracked by street protests since June 11, when a 17-year-old student died after being hit by a tear-gas shell fired by police during a pro-independence demonstration in Srinagar.
> 
> Also Wednesday, extra forces were deployed to protect the start of an annual Hindu pilgrimage to the icy Amarnath shrine in the foothills of Himalayas. In the past, it has been the target of Islamic militant groups.
> 
> "Adequate security arrangements for the smooth conduct of yatra (pilgrimage) are in place," Kashmir's tourism minister Rigzin Jora told reporters, as he flagged off first batch of 1,274 pilgrims from Kashmiri winter capital, Jammu.
> 
> The pilgrims, including 400 ash-smeared saints, left Jammu in caravan of busus, cars and trucks protected by machine-gun wielding paramilitary forces.
> 
> The violence in Kashmir is seen as a major test for chief minister Abdullah, who came to power last year promising to improve human rights.
> 
> *Even where curfews were not in place Wednesday, life came to standstill because of a general strike called for the second day running by separatists. Shops, schools and offices were closed.
> *
> India and Pakistan each hold Kashmir in part but claim it in full. They have fought two of their three wars over it.
> 
> Separatists have fought a decades-long battle against rule by New Delhi, favouring independence for the region or for it to join neighbour Muslim-majority Pakistan.
> 
> An anti-India insurgency, which New Delhi says is fuelled by Pakistan, has claimed an estimated 47,000 lives.
> 
> "There is a two-track struggle going on in the (Kashmir) valley," wrote columnist Manoj Joshi in the Mail Today newspaper. "The first is a military conflict involving Pakistan-trained and armed militants...
> 
> "The second is a civil protest movement which is a melange of separatism, Islamism and alienation against misrule and lack of avenues for productive employment," he said.



Indian Kashmir locked down in bid to stem deadly protests


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## Arjun MBT

Areesh said:


> Well you haven't prove anything. You were just trolling. It is a fact that Pak Army's achievement against terrorism is much greater then any other military of the world. It is you who is denial about Pak Army ops in Swat and FATA.
> 
> Any ways the way you are rolling on the floor it shows you are a dumbas*.



Yeah yeah, call me anything, I can make Out how desperate and Frustrated U are after seeing that source...lol...and Why are You red while smiling, this shows your frustration


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## Bang Galore

vsdoc said:


> I simply do not understand the sense of sending in these thullas covered in what looks like a padded rajai, a WWII helmet with a steel grill visor, and a lathio in hand man. Against guys chucking rocks at them.
> 
> There has to be a middle ground between lathis and throwing rocks back (today's newspaper had a photo of some thulls gathered around a wheelbarrow collecting brick pieces to chuck back!) and the use of live ammunition as a last ditch measure.
> 
> The security forces need much better body armour. Nothing fancy, but why not basic sports quality hard guards at least? Like elbow and forearm, knee and shin, hip and thigh, back, as well as motocross style upper body armor with shoulder and chest protector integrated as well? It would not cost more than 5000 bucks at most. Can't we spend that much on each policeman?
> 
> Secondly, the world over riot police have guns that fire non-lethal rubber bullets. Why not fire those at the stone pelters? Yes you could lose an eye or a testicle, but I find it hard to imagine rallies with green flags in Sopore or Anantnag over a young man minus one testicle. And it would give other young men something to think about before they accept their daily wages for stoning on hire.
> 
> Thirdly, as way back as the early 90s the Indian Army MP has had these electrical prods and tasers. Crude but very effective. And once hit, you develop this sudden overpowering lifelong urge not to experience it again! After all, there's something spectaculary un-heroic and un-inspiring about a "pro-freedom insurgent" going into grotesque tonic-clonic paroxysms on the ground as his bladder and anal sphincters lose all tone and violently expel their contents involuntarily.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Spot on ! It makes my blood boil to see these guys who are doing our dirty work run up against stone throwing mobs without the basic of protective gear. Yesterday there was a video of a mob beating a policeman brutally. The guy didn't have a single piece of protective gear on except for his helmet. We regularly see images of the SPG showing off their toys, guess it helps if you are providing show & pomp for the PM & other assorted VIP's but these poor guys get sent to handle riots with just a stick. How much can it take to issue these guys with protective equipment & non lethal weapons? Can't we as a country of 1.2 billion afford some basic protection to a few thousand riot police? Chances are that a unprotected policeman may feel danger to his person enough to use deadly force where one who was better protected may have waited out the protesters.


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## civfanatic

blueoval79 said:


> On boil again...and will cool down soon.......with a fizzle


You have been waiting for 60 years but sorry we dont oblige you


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## Areesh

*Amaranth yatra begins amidst tensions in Kashmir*



> The Amaranth yatra began on June 30th from Jammu Kashmir amidst tensions in the valley. The first batch of 500 Hindu pilgrims left in a convoy escorted by heavy security.
> 
> Several towns in the valley were put under curfew because of the security situation. Pilgrims however remained undeterred, vowing that they will continue the yatra.
> 
> The DIG of Jammu Kashmir, Farooq Khan, said that nearly 3,000 border security force jawans have been deployed to avoid any untoward situation.
> 
> Thousands of pilgrims travel every year to the holy Amarnath cave shrine in south Kashmir, dedicated to lord Shiva, that is located at a height of 13,500 feet.



Amaranth yatra begins amidst tensions in Kashmir


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## civfanatic

syedtalha said:


> //shikaslada be ha chus kooshur... lanath vexya hindustanya. balay logukh kasheeri.//
> you can come here to srinagar and veify my credentials. & regarding my indian flag, it symbolyses indian occupation of kashmir



kyasa koshur bouy cha waray .....welcome


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## ice_man

Dash said:


> So that you attack it and take it...leave it to India, its better with us.



 yes this is what you did with JUNGADH & kashmir attacked it and took it & kept it! and decided by yourselves that it is "better with us"


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## Areesh

*Authorities extend curfew to new areas in Indian Occupied Kashmir to end anti-India protests*




> SRINAGAR, India &#8212; Authorities brought new areas under curfew in the Indian portion of Kashmir on Wednesday to control the worst street violence in a year, triggered by the killing of 11 people allegedly by government forces over the past two weeks.
> Thousands of government forces patrolled the troubled town of Sopore where the curfew continued for a sixth straight day.
> With tension mounting in the region, authorities put most parts in Srinagar, the main city in Indian Kashmir, and the key towns of Anantnag and Baramulla under curfew on Wednesday.
> Omar Abdullah, the state's top elected official, asked people to stay indoors. "They should not violate curfew and not engage security forces."
> Shops, businesses, schools and government offices were shut in the region. Authorities postponed college examinations and even blocked text messages on cellphones.
> No fresh violence was reported Wednesday, a day after police and paramilitary troops fired on thousands of anti-India protesters, killing at least three people in Anantnag, a town 35 miles (55 kilometres) south of Srinagar, police said.
> Local residents said that one of the dead, Ishtiyaq Ahmed Khanday, 15, was not part of any protests and was killed in the compound of his home.
> Faced with more than two weeks of increasingly strident protests in the divided Himalayan region, government forces have been accused of killing a total of 11 people in Indian-controlled Kashmir. Protesters demanding independence have attacked troops with rocks and sticks, and government forces have responded by launching tear gas, charging with batons and opening fire.
> Muslim militants have fought in the Indian-controlled part of Kashmir since 1989 for independence or merger with Pakistan.
> While anti-India demonstrations are frequent in the region, the latest round of street protests was triggered by a police investigation earlier this month that found Indian army soldiers had killed three Kashmiri civilians in May. The investigation said the soldiers staged a gunbattle to claim the dead were militants. The army responded by suspending two officers.
> Anti-India sentiment runs deep in Muslim-majority Kashmir, which is divided between India and Pakistan and is claimed by both.
> Separatist politicians and armed militants reject Indian sovereignty in Kashmir, and want to carve out a separate homeland or merge the Himalayan region into Pakistan.
> More than 68,000 people, mostly civilians, have been killed in the conflict since 1989.



Authorities extend curfew to new areas in Indian Occupied Kashmir to end anti-India protests


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## welcome

*BREAKING NEWS:*

*Terrorist behind the Kashmir recent riot. so we can't denied the ISI involvement in recent riot.however investigation is in primary stage.*

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## rohailmalhi

welcome said:


> *BREAKING NEWS:*
> 
> *Terrorist behind the Kashmir recent riot. so we can't denied the ISI involvement in recent riot.however investigation is in primary stage.*



Blay Blay ISI once again .


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## Areesh

*Protests rock Kashmir, Amarnath Yatra halted*




> *The annual Amarnath Yatra has been halted by the authorities on Wednesday in Udhampur district of Jammu and Kashmir.*
> The buses leaving for Kashmir from Udhampur district for the Yarta that is scheduled to formally start on Thursday were halted for three hours. According to the authorities, this was done to ensure the safety of the pilgrims as the Valley witnessed violent protests in the last 2 days in which at least 6 civilians have been killed. The journey is likely to resume in the evening.
> *Meanwhile, Jammu and Kashmir Petrol and Tankers Association has refused to carry fuel to the Valley due to security concerns.* The move by the association comes after 35 tankers were reportedly damaged by agitators during the recent protests.
> *The association members are demanding adequate security for the tankers and are currently holding a meeting with the state government officials on the issue.
> *The Association's president Anand Sharma says that the tankers would however continue to supply fuel to the Jammu region.
> *The refusal to carry fuel is likely to hit not only the Valley but also the Ladakh region.* Everyday, 200 fuel tankers leave for Kashmir and Ladakh from Jammu. The daily requirement of fuel in Kashmir and Ladakh is estimated to be 24 lakh litres.



Protests rock Kashmir, Amarnath Yatra halted


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## aristocrat

Soldiers have to be held responsible for certain human rights violations in Kashmir,but that does not mean the entire army is evil.i cannot speculate about Pakistani involvement,but yes certain sections of the army are definitely at fault.
And frankly i was hurt by such casual attitude of certain members from India about the Kashmir issue,but again i think Kashmirs should try to adopt a more democratic approach.There are problems in every state and the people there worry more about dealing with them first.


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## Spring Onion

Areesh said:


> *Protests rock Kashmir, Amarnath Yatra halted*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Protests rock Kashmir, Amarnath Yatra halted



Oh that Amarnath Yatra , the cave where Indians every year form a fake ice linga to fool the world and attract Hindu devotees. Another ploy to occupy Kashmir land


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## Areesh

Jana said:


> Oh that Amarnath Yatra , the cave where Indians every year form a fake ice linga to fool the world and attract Hindu devotees. Another ploy to occupy Kashmir land



Yup the same one.


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## Spring Onion

aristocrat said:


> Soldiers have to be held responsible for certain human rights violations in Kashmir,but that does not mean the entire army is evil.i cannot speculate about Pakistani involvement,but yes certain sections of the army are definitely at fault.
> And frankly i was hurt by such casual attitude of certain members from India about the Kashmir issue,but again i think Kashmirs should try to adopt a more democratic approach.There are problems in every state and the people there worry more about dealing with them first.



There are problems in every state of India but Kashmir is not an Indian State rather occupied territory, a disputed land under UN resolution.

And above all if it was domestic issue than India would not have thousands of troops in Held Kashmir. How many troops you have in Maoist hit insurgency area that too which is part of India unlike Kashmir


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## Mirza Jatt

Jana said:


> There are problems in every state of India but Kashmir is not an Indian State rather occupied territory, a disputed land under UN resolution.
> 
> *And above all if it was domestic issue than India would not have thousands of troops in Held Kashmir. How many troops you have in Maoist hit insurgency area that too which is part of India unlike Kashmir*



the areas controlled by Maoist do not see international borders from where terrorists infiltrate....for the domestic violence its J&K police taking over from the CRPF.

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## Areesh

Indian Jatt said:


> the areas controlled by Maoist do not see international borders from where terrorists infiltrate....for the domestic violence its J&K police taking over from the CRPF.



So that is why you have allowed them to massacre your security forces.

Humm.


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## Spring Onion

Indian Jatt said:


> the areas controlled by Maoist do not see international borders from where terrorists infiltrate....for the domestic violence its J&K police taking over from the CRPF.



There is NO International Border. Its LoC Line of Control (a non border) divided the Kashmiri land in two parts hence there is no question of cross border infiltration.

Kashmiris going from one area of their land to other area of their own country


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## aristocrat

jana as far as amarnath yatra is concerned the people visitng kashmir do believe in what they are doing.[talking about religious aspect].
a disputed land under UN resolution_ _ _ _ _
agreed,but for a person living in assam ,india it is same as visiting any other state,cell phones get blocked in both states.I am in no way equating the problems in Kashmir to those in Assam but i am simply against violence be it on the part of insurgents or by army against civilians.
"and above all if it was domestic issue than India would not have thousands of troops in Held Kashmir. How many troops you have in Maoist hit insurgency area that too which is part of India unlike Kashmir ".
Remember Army was bought in to counter well trained terrorist forces,same as in north east.
in Maoist hit areas there is no army involvement and there shouldnt be
at least not to fight tribal people


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## mourning sage

thxss again!!!!!!!!!!


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## Mirza Jatt

Areesh said:


> So that is why you have allowed them to massacre your security forces.
> 
> Humm.



not really, but am I hearing this from you..who has allowed US to massacre your own people just to get....



aressh : dont flame..I have to reply in the same manner and this will end up in a cheap debate..


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## Mirza Jatt

Jana said:


> There is NO International Border. Its LoC Line of Control (a non border) divided the Kashmiri land in two parts hence there is no question of cross border infiltration.
> 
> Kashmiris going from one area of their land to other area of their own country



sorry we know where these kashmiris are coming from..so keep the definition of LoC and the border with yourself...the bottomline is..terrorist are coming to our land thus the more troop deployment..

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## Areesh

Indian Jatt said:


> not really, but am I hearing this from you..who has allowed US to massacre your own people just to get....
> 
> 
> 
> aressh : dont flame..I have to reply in the same manner and this will end up in a cheap debate..



I am just asking a simple question. What is wrong in that? Why don't you beep up your security forces to quell Maoists like IOK. IOK isn't an Indian state we all know it. Why don't you do something to save the real Indian states.


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## Prometheus

Areesh said:


> I am just asking a simple question. What is wrong in that? Why don't you beep up your security forces to quell Maoists like IOK. IOK isn't an Indian state we all know it. Why don't you do something to save the real Indian states.



well J&K is Indian state...............weather you disagree or agree..........We got permission of last King of Kashmir as per Indian Indepandance act...................

about moasits..............They want a communist state instead of Republic one...............there is nothing like they are breaking away.

And tell you one thing.............Its only CRPF and local police controling roits...................thats why mess has happenned..............moment army comes into play...................you wont see any news from Kashmir.

And plz can you tell me why IOK and Azad Kashmir is Pakistani????


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## Arjun MBT

Areesh said:


> I am just asking a simple question. What is wrong in that? Why don't you beep up your security forces to quell Maoists like IOK. IOK isn't an Indian state we all know it. Why don't you do something to save the real Indian states.



Iam just asking a simple question , why dont You mind your business , Your country will anytime fall in talibans hand, Instead of looking into Your country You are more Interested in our matters.. get a Life mate

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## Mirza Jatt

Areesh said:


> I am just asking a simple question. What is wrong in that? Why don't you beep up your security forces to quell Maoists like IOK. IOK isn't an Indian state we all know it. Why don't you do something to save the real Indian states.



firstly call it Indian administered kashmir...I am sure you will not like your part of kashmir being called p0k..

now on topic..

you are right..we must beef up our security in maoist afected areas just like our Kashmir...the situation is really bad there..if you compare the security lvel with that of Kahmir..then till now it was such because the maoist kiling was not high as the rate of infiltration or the terrorists attacks in India....the maoists were always there but the killing taking place where not even significant enough to mention..where as in kashmir, the terrorists infiltrated and attacked almost everyday in public places and from there, came to different parts of India and every now and then there was bomb blast and killings...

the second point...
for you its not a state of India but for us its an integral part of India..I would not stop you from thinking whatever you think..

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## DGMO

23 pages later and still the same back and forth between posters. A broken record being played over and over again.

Incredible.

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## javaman

Jana said:


> Oh that Amarnath Yatra , the cave where Indians every year form a fake ice linga to fool the world and attract Hindu devotees. Another ploy to occupy Kashmir land



i think that yatrees take money frm u ,and go there.i have a lot of things 2 say,but seniors are seniors and religion must be respected.

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## javaman

Jana said:


> There is NO International Border. Its LoC Line of Control (a non border) divided the Kashmiri land in two parts hence there is no question of cross border infiltration.
> 
> Kashmiris going from one area of their land to other area of their own country



ur making way 4 the terrorists,here ppl from indian kashmir dont go there in ur kashmir.everytime reverse is true.

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## javaman

Areesh said:


> I am just asking a simple question. What is wrong in that? Why don't you beep up your security forces to quell Maoists like IOK. IOK isn't an Indian state we all know it. Why don't you do something to save the real Indian states.



*problem related to maoist is the development related problem.lack of development resulted into that.only it can cure this ,it will take time.*

it's an internal matter,we dont need ur advice where to keep army or not.*every decision is taken to keep the indian state frm kashmir to kanyakumari,every state is purely indian state.*

if u have interst in kashmir then keep ur mounth wide open,we have no problem.it's ur job to do,whether u do this or not.india is free to do anything in their own territory

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## Arjun MBT

Jana said:


> Oh that Amarnath Yatra , the cave where Indians every year form a fake ice linga to fool the world and attract Hindu devotees. Another ploy to occupy Kashmir land



Yes Some one is sitting there to make Lingas In minus 30 Degree Celsius, No one is asking you to believe it, but aleast dont hurt others sentiments....

For You Islam Might be everything, But for Us Our Belief is everything... Have we ever Insulted your religion??

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## Awesome

Sahi chitirol ho rahi hai inki, still they have the gall to claim the Kashmiris even remotely support them!

---------- Post added at 04:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:11 PM ----------

The writing is on the wall, the message from Kashmiris is clear. "Get out of my house!"


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## blueoval79

Asim Aquil said:


> Sahi chitirol ho rahi hai inki, still they have the gall to claim the Kashmiris even remotely support them!
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:11 PM ----------
> 
> The writing is on the wall, the message from Kashmiris is clear. "Get out of my house!"



Sure all Indian want to pass on the message to Pakistanis .....get the hell out of P...O...K.....and stop sending terrorists to our country....

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## Spring Onion

javaman said:


> ,here ppl from indian kashmir dont go there in ur kashmir.everytime reverse is true.:



Because they see lakhs of Indian occupied forces killing their people thats why


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## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> [/COLOR]The writing is on the wall, the message from Kashmiris is clear. "Get out of my house!"



Why .... where are their Pakistani brothers ... or they are not able to free them ???

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## Hyde

blueoval79 said:


> Sure all Indian want to pass on the message to Pakistanis .....get the hell out of P...O...K.....and stop sending terrorists to our country....



bacha deewana ho gaya hai


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## Ammyy

Jana said:


> Because they see lakhs of Indian occupied forces killing their people thats why



They can protest cause In India every one have right to protest 

But same case in P O K and you got 

Thats the difference

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## Spring Onion

Arjun MBT said:


> Yes Some one is sitting there to make Lingas In minus 30 Degree Celsius, No one is asking you to believe it, but aleast dont hurt others sentiments....
> 
> For You Islam Might be everything, But for Us Our Belief is everything... Have we ever Insulted your religion??



The yatra is done in this summer season and that so-called ICe linga melts away so they have to fool the people by forming a fake one.

Please do have a reality check, NO one is insulting your religion. They even had installed air conditioning system to prevent the melting so its not DIVINE in anyway

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## Spring Onion

DRDO said:


> They can protest cause In India every one have right to protest
> 
> But same case in *AZAD Kashmir * and you got
> 
> Thats the difference



Thousands have been killed by Terrorist State of India in Occupied Kashmir


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## blueoval79

Jana said:


> The yatra is done in this summer season and that so-called ICe linga melts away so they have to fool the people by forming a fake one.
> 
> Please do have a reality check, NO one is insulting your religion. They even had installed air conditioning system to prevent the melting so its not DIVINE in anyway



Mohtarma.....tum apna religion aur apne religious believes sambhalo.....we know the way Muslims go on Haj and kiss a stone .....and circle around....a boxxy room covered with green sheets......and then the say we don't believe in Paganisim.....

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## Sudesh Lahri

Jana said:


> Because they see lakhs of Indian occupied forces killing their people thats why



You torch bearer of humanity   

Who is killing the mehsud tribe and other innocent pashtoons in FATA and the so called pashtoonkawa?? And wait, the baluchis?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

DRDO said:


> They can protest cause In India every one have right to protest
> 
> *But same case in P O K and you got *
> 
> Thats the difference



In AZAD KASHMIR we dont even have an army strenght of 2000 ... n ur occupyin IOK with .7 million soldier?

WAT A SHAME.... Dont embarass urself with dumb remarks.


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## Areesh

Zaki said:


> bacha deewana ho gaya hai



Gham cheez hi aisi hai Zaki bhai. Gham main bundai ka dimagh chal hi jata hai.


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## Arjun MBT

Jana said:


> The yatra is done in this summer season and that so-called ICe linga melts away so they have to fool the people by forming a fake one.
> 
> Please do have a reality check, NO one is insulting your religion. They even had installed air conditioning system to prevent the melting so its not DIVINE in anyway



Air conditioning Up there 3,888 m (12,756 ft) where even Surviving is Of Doubt???

Come on if You Dont believe It leave it, but do not Insult it... Its Our Belief and Let it be with us.... 

Or India might have Innovated this technology of air conditioning 5,000 years ago as this Has been Melting and forming since then.. man India Invented AC 5000 years ago...

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## schneider

Jana said:


> There is NO International Border. Its LoC Line of Control (a non border) divided the Kashmiri land in two parts hence there is no question of cross border infiltration.
> 
> Kashmiris going from one area of their land to other area of their own country



To be more specific, I think they are entering from west side of LOC(Pak Occupied Kashmir) into eastern side, with guns and grenades.

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## javaman

Jana said:


> Because they see lakhs of Indian occupied forces killing their people thats why



a lot of their own civilians also get attacked,killed,raped etc and etc.if civilians dont provide shelter to them or not give food to them.they kill the kashmiri pll.so sad this is,but irony is no body is understanding this frm root.


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## Sudesh Lahri

-----------------


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## Areesh

Sudesh Lahri said:


> You torch bearer of humanity
> 
> Who is killing the mehsud tribe and other innocent pashtoons in FATA and the so called pashtoonkawa?? And wait, the baluchis?



Ah Indian getting frustrated and now showing sympathy for pushtoons and baluchs. 

By the way Jana and many other members here are pushtoon and they love Pakistan more than any body else.


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## blueoval79

Cyber Jihadi chale hain So called Azadi ki jang ladne....padosi ke naam pe.....

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Sudesh Lahri said:


> You torch bearer of humanity
> 
> Who is killing the mehsud tribe and other innocent pashtoons in FATA and the so called pashtoonkawa?? And wait, the baluchis?



Hey dumb @R,--=--- She herself belongs from PK and im frm balouchistan...stop ur dumbass f..ked up propoganda b.s... and jump frm ur houses roof ... do a service to HUMANITY


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## Spring Onion

blueoval79 said:


> Mohtarma.....tum apna religion aur apne religious believes sambhalo.....we know the way Muslims go on Haj and kiss a stone .....and circle around....a boxxy room covered with green sheets......and then the say we don't believe in Paganisim.....



Take that discussion to some other thread and i will reply you here it doesnt fit.

Amarnath cave is in Held Kashmir and the yatra there is pure drama that issue is not about religious believes but the issue is Indian cheating and spread of lies by forming fake ice linga and presents it as something divine in the cave.


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## Ammyy

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> In AZAD KASHMIR we dont even have an army strenght of 2000 ... n ur occupyin IOK with .7 million soldier?
> 
> WAT A SHAME.... Dont embarass urself with dumb remarks.



What a shame even prees is not got freedom in P o K 






And talking about J& K 
Who know what your forces doing in P O k .......

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## schneider

asq said:


> Say who, not the UN.
> u concocted this story by ur self. and u have to bear the consequences.



as if it belongs to you.


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## javaman

blueoval79 said:


> Cyber Jihadi chale hain So called Azadi ki jang ladne....padosi ke naam pe.....



very well said,but they r not jehadi.

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## Spring Onion

Sudesh Lahri said:


> You torch bearer of humanity
> 
> Who is killing the mehsud tribe and other innocent pashtoons in FATA and the so called pashtoonkawa?? And wait, the baluchis?



Please open a separate thread to discuss that. BUT wait that is our Internal matter and not some disputed one under UN resolution.


You bhartis never tired of making up things


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## blueoval79

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> In AZAD KASHMIR we dont even have an army strenght of 2000 ... n ur occupyin IOK with .7 million soldier?
> 
> WAT A SHAME.... Dont embarass urself with dumb remarks.



We like it ....and we have not shame.....we shameless sons of chanakya.....dont want to give our so called holier neighbor another opportunity to conduct another operation gibralter....iin which ye will lose as usual....but here on this side some Indians will die...and we don't like that....so more troops.....less terrorists....

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## Sudesh Lahri

There a place call "Hazrat bal" in kashmir. Where muslims say theres a *hair* of your pbuh. You would call it divine?? I say its made up.

I would call for a forensic examination to check if its really a humans or some animal as I am not sure.

And same for Amarnath Shrine, I am not sure.


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## javaman

Jana said:


> Take that discussion to some other thread and i will reply you here it doesnt fit.
> 
> Amarnath cave is in Held Kashmir and the yatra there is pure drama that issue is not about religious believes but the issue is Indian cheating and spread of lies by forming fake ice linga and presents it as something divine in the cave.



so wat if it is indian kashmir.if they believe so let them believe they r not saying or complining abt this.
i think 4 the sake of kashmir,ur going to forget everything which can be religious or else.

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## Areesh

blueoval79 said:


> We like it ....and we have not shame.....we shameless sons of chanakya.....dont want to give our so called holier neighbor another opportunity to conduct another operation gibralter....iin which ye will lose as usual....but here on this side some Indians will die...and we don't like that....so more troops.....less terrorists....



You are going to lose it dear. Sooner or later you are going to lose it. You are wasting your time and some poor soldiers too.


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## blueoval79

Jana said:


> Take that discussion to some other thread and i will reply you here it doesnt fit.
> 
> Amarnath cave is in Held Kashmir and the yatra there is pure drama that issue is not about religious believes but the issue is Indian cheating and spread of lies by forming fake ice linga and presents it as something divine in the cave.



A century old tradition is a ploy....lady wake up.....the yatra is being conducted much before Pakistan was even born.

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## Prometheus

blueoval79 said:


> Cyber Jihadi chale hain So called Azadi ki jang ladne....padosi ke naam pe.....



wah wah wah.............once more

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## Mirza Jatt

Jana said:


> Take that discussion to some other thread and i will reply you here it doesnt fit.
> 
> *Amarnath cave is in Held Kashmir and the yatra there is pure drama *that issue is not about religious believes but the issue is Indian cheating and spread of lies by forming fake ice linga and presents it as something divine in the cave.



now dont say you did not insult any religion....if Haj is a holy journey for you, then so is the Amarnath Yatra for the Hindu brothers...if you have something to prove,open a thread...just like you have been advicing other members...

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## Spring Onion

blueoval79 said:


> A century old tradition is a ploy....lady wake up.....the yatra is being conducted much before Pakistan was even born.



The making of fake ice linga is ploy. Please do check some investigations even your army senior officer had been visiting to check the work


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## javaman

Areesh said:


> You are going to lose it dear. Sooner or later you are going to lose it. You are wasting your time and some poor soldiers too.


so when we will loose it,we will tell u.then u can send ur forces to occupy this.*but till that time remain silent on this issue*


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## blueoval79

Jana said:


> The making of fake ice linga is ploy. Please do check some investigations even your army senior officer had been visiting to check the work


.
And this story was told by oh so reliable pigeons who live in the heights of Himalayas.....cooking story is nice.,..but cooking that pigeon would make some good soup.


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## schneider

Jana said:


> Take that discussion to some other thread and i will reply you here it doesnt fit.
> 
> Amarnath cave is in Held Kashmir and the yatra there is pure drama that issue is not about religious believes but the issue is Indian cheating and spread of lies by forming fake ice linga and presents it as something divine in the cave.



I think Muslims do not worship Idols, well thats good because Aryasamaji HIndus people also do not worship Idols. But the fact is Kabba itself is a huge Idol and a Physical body that can be seen from satellite. Plus there is a Black stone you have preserved, whihc was once kissed by Paigambar Mohammad. 
So dont you respect it??????
same way we respect things be it stone or air. Real or Artificial!!!!!!!!!


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## Spring Onion

Indian Jatt said:


> now dont say you did not insult any religion....if Haj is a holy journey for you, then so is the Amarnath Yatra for the Hindu brothers...if you have something to prove,open a thread...just like you have been advicing other members...



No other thread needed for it, because the issue of Amarnath yatra has arised here after protests and it may face halting.


NO one is denying importance of Yatra for Hindus, all i am saying that this ice linga is being formed manually in the past few years due to its melting and last year or so Indians even tried to grab Kashmiri land on the pretext of amranath shrine land


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## Prometheus

Jana said:


> The making of fake ice linga is ploy. Please do check some investigations even your army senior officer had been visiting to check the work



Plz back ur dreamy claims by a source!!!!!!

can you??????

Amarnath Shiv Ling is made naturally by the water flowing through the cracks of the cave.

How it works???............open ur refrigerator and see


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## Ammyy

Jana said:


> The making of fake ice linga is ploy. Please do check some investigations even your army senior officer had been visiting to check the work



I am requested you to please out all religion or regional best discussion from this thread 


Otherwise i have no fear to being Banned .......

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## Sudesh Lahri

Jana said:


> BUT wait that is our Internal matter and not some *disputed one under UN resolution*.



Your UN resolution means nothing to us.

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## schneider

Jana said:


> No other thread needed for it, because the issue of Amarnath yatra has arised here after protests and it may face halting.
> 
> 
> NO one is denying importance of Yatra for Hindus, all i am saying that this ice linga is being formed manually in the past few years due to its melting and last year or so Indians even tried to grab Kashmiri land on the pretext of amranath shrine land



wasnt Kabbah built by Paigambar Mohammad??? He was no angel, he was a HUMAN!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Sudesh Lahri

^^^

In other words, not divine.


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## Spring Onion

blueoval79 said:


> .
> And this story was told by oh so reliable pigeons who live in the heights of Himalayas.....cooking story is nice.,..but cooking that pigeon would make some good soup.


*
Fake Iceicle sends a Shiva through worshippers .*

An unanticipated benefit of alleged Global warming is that it may help reduce the diversity of backwardness in the "community", as this case shows:
*
The authorities have ordered an inquiry into malpractice allegations at one of the holiest shrines of the Hindu faith where for years an upside down iceicle has been worshipped as a symbol of Shiva the God of Destruction.*

Community members claim that the stalagmite is a phallic fertility lingam (literally penis)  comprised of an upside down iceicle which is said to rise up naturally each year from dripping water that freezes on the ground.

Every year, thousands of worldwide pilgrims defy death threats from locals subscribing to a well known peace religion, to visit the remote shrine of their God Shivas icy phallus sited near the Pakistan border of Kashmir.

Shiva the God of Destruction has now been emasculated by a warm spell .

*Perhaps due to a Global-Warming induced lack of water and insufficiently cold temperatures in the mountains, this year the stalagmite has been unable to rise to the occasion to cause awe-struck wonderment among the gullible worshippers at the Shiva centre.*
*
Disappointed pilgrims to the shrine say that a fake ice stalagmite has been now installed at the site because the existing one is too small.

The fake lingam is said to be made of compacted snow, an unsatisfying crushed ice slushy rather than a natural ice lolly.


I am 100% convinced the Shiva lingam has been artificially formed and It's made of soft snow and not of naturally formed ice says Praveen Kumar (quoted in the link).
*
The belief in question, is so highly respected amongst some, that a retired High Court Judge has been invited to see if the holy lolly is indeed tinier and under endowed, than the simple minded ice phallus worshippers have come to expect.
*
A Government Minister is to investigate the allegations that a man-made snowman stalagmite was placed in the cave after the naturally occurring one failed to materialise.*

Although it is sad? that a lack of ice has managed to send a Shiva through the community ; it supports the notion that Global warming may not be all bad.

Global warming is demonstrably beneficial if rising temperatures ensure that naturally occurring iceicles are no longer there to be worshipped by simple minded members of the ethnic community as God's very own Todger.

BBC NEWS | South Asia | 'Fake shrine' inquiry in Kashmir


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## Mirza Jatt

Jana said:


> No other thread needed for it, because the issue of Amarnath yatra has* arised here after protests and it may face halting*.



then talk about the fate of the yatra this year..wether it will/should happen or not..and not on the the relious aspect like fake lingam..drama yatra and stuff...your intention is clear here.



> NO one is denying importance of Yatra for Hindus, all i am saying that this ice linga is being formed manually in the past few years due to its melting and last year or so Indians even tried to grab Kashmiri land on the pretext of amranath shrine land



sorry, you are wrong about it...the lingam is forming every year..howver its significantly smaller in size than it used to be earlier.

about grabbing the kashmiri land..create a thread...its complete derailing the thread.


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## schneider

Jana said:


> *
> Fake Iceicle sends a Shiva through worshippers .*
> 
> An unanticipated benefit of alleged Global warming is that it may help reduce the diversity of backwardness in the "community", as this case shows:
> *
> The authorities have ordered an inquiry into malpractice allegations at one of the holiest shrines of the Hindu faith where for years an upside down iceicle has been worshipped as a symbol of Shiva the God of Destruction.*
> 
> Community members claim that the stalagmite is a phallic fertility lingam (literally penis)  comprised of an upside down iceicle which is said to rise up naturally each year from dripping water that freezes on the ground.
> 
> Every year, thousands of worldwide pilgrims defy death threats from locals subscribing to a well known peace religion, to visit the remote shrine of their God Shivas icy phallus sited near the Pakistan border of Kashmir.
> 
> Shiva the God of Destruction has now been emasculated by a warm spell .
> 
> *Perhaps due to a Global-Warming induced lack of water and insufficiently cold temperatures in the mountains, this year the stalagmite has been unable to rise to the occasion to cause awe-struck wonderment among the gullible worshippers at the Shiva centre.*
> *
> Disappointed pilgrims to the shrine say that a fake ice stalagmite has been now installed at the site because the existing one is too small.
> 
> The fake lingam is said to be made of compacted snow, an unsatisfying crushed ice slushy rather than a natural ice lolly.
> 
> 
> I am 100% convinced the Shiva lingam has been artificially formed and It's made of soft snow and not of naturally formed ice says Praveen Kumar (quoted in the link).
> *
> The belief in question, is so highly respected amongst some, that a retired High Court Judge has been invited to see if the holy lolly is indeed tinier and under endowed, than the simple minded ice phallus worshippers have come to expect.
> *
> A Government Minister is to investigate the allegations that a man-made snowman stalagmite was placed in the cave after the naturally occurring one failed to materialise.*
> 
> Although it is sad? that a lack of ice has managed to send a Shiva through the community ; it supports the notion that Global warming may not be all bad.
> 
> Global warming is demonstrably beneficial if rising temperatures ensure that naturally occurring iceicles are no longer there to be worshipped by simple minded members of the ethnic community as God's very own Todger.
> 
> BBC NEWS | South Asia | 'Fake shrine' inquiry in Kashmir



Kaaba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and Kaaba is neither God'S creation!!!!


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## Parashuram1

*Can you keep religion out of this* ?! I have been reading all 22 pages and the discussion was going interesting and neutral from my side adding to knowledge about your perspective. 

Have you been there to Amarnath? NO. Do you have any idea of its history? No. I have been there enough times with my family as have other Hindus from world over and know about the place.

Then why don't you stick to the topic and keep religion out?

How would you feel if we say that Kaaba is not holy?

Therefore, don't talk about what you don't know. You are not only offending Indians but Hindus worldwide whether of Indian origin or not.

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## blueoval79

Jana said:


> *
> Fake Iceicle sends a &#8216;Shiva&#8217; through worshippers .*
> 
> An unanticipated benefit of alleged &#8220;Global warming&#8221; is that it may help reduce the diversity of backwardness in the "community", as this case shows:
> *
> The authorities have ordered an inquiry into &#8220;malpractice&#8221; allegations at one of the holiest shrines of the Hindu faith where for years an upside down iceicle has been worshipped as a symbol of &#8216;Shiva&#8217; the God of Destruction.*
> 
> Community members claim that the stalagmite is a phallic fertility &#8216;lingam&#8217; (literally &#8216;penis&#8217 &#8211; comprised of an upside down iceicle which is said to rise up naturally each year from dripping water that freezes on the ground.
> 
> Every year, thousands of worldwide pilgrims defy death threats from locals subscribing to a well known peace religion, to visit the remote shrine of their God Shiva&#8217;s icy phallus sited near the Pakistan border of Kashmir.
> 
> Shiva the God of Destruction has now been emasculated by a warm spell .
> 
> *Perhaps due to a Global-Warming induced lack of water and insufficiently cold temperatures in the mountains, this year the stalagmite has been unable to rise to the occasion to cause awe-struck wonderment among the gullible worshippers at the Shiva centre.*
> *
> Disappointed pilgrims to the shrine say that a fake ice stalagmite has been now installed at the site because the existing one is too small.
> 
> The fake lingam is said to be made of compacted snow, an unsatisfying crushed ice &#8220;slushy&#8221; rather than a natural ice lolly.
> 
> 
> &#8220;I am 100&#37; convinced the Shiva lingam has been artificially formed and It's made of soft snow and not of naturally formed ice&#8221; says Praveen Kumar (quoted in the link).
> *
> The belief in question, is so highly respected amongst some, that a retired High Court Judge has been invited to see if the holy lolly is indeed tinier and under endowed, than the simple minded ice phallus worshippers have come to expect.
> *
> A Government Minister is to investigate the allegations that a man-made snowman stalagmite was placed in the cave after the naturally occurring one failed to materialise.*
> 
> Although it is sad? that a lack of ice has managed to send a &#8216;Shiva&#8217; through the community ; it supports the notion that Global warming may not be all bad.
> 
> Global warming is demonstrably beneficial if rising temperatures ensure that naturally occurring iceicles are no longer there to be worshipped by simple minded members of the ethnic community as God's very own Todger.
> 
> BBC NEWS | South Asia | 'Fake shrine' inquiry in Kashmir




Selective reading....or just blind effort to prove your point....lets see...

You are so shameless ...that you posted a forum entry and just to add weight to your statement you added a link to BBC news...

Here is your link from where you picked up this write up of yours....

Fake Iceicle sends a &#8216;Shiva&#8217; through worshippers . - Stormfront


And with this...... Jana......the great reporter of the forum ...loses all the respect I had for her.


Thank you very much.

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## Parashuram1

Jana said:


> *
> Fake Iceicle sends a Shiva through worshippers .*
> 
> An unanticipated benefit of alleged Global warming is that it may help reduce the diversity of backwardness in the "community", as this case shows:
> *
> The authorities have ordered an inquiry into malpractice allegations at one of the holiest shrines of the Hindu faith where for years an upside down iceicle has been worshipped as a symbol of Shiva the God of Destruction.*
> 
> Community members claim that the stalagmite is a phallic fertility lingam (literally penis)  comprised of an upside down iceicle which is said to rise up naturally each year from dripping water that freezes on the ground.
> 
> Every year, thousands of worldwide pilgrims defy death threats from locals subscribing to a well known peace religion, to visit the remote shrine of their God Shivas icy phallus sited near the Pakistan border of Kashmir.
> 
> Shiva the God of Destruction has now been emasculated by a warm spell .
> 
> *Perhaps due to a Global-Warming induced lack of water and insufficiently cold temperatures in the mountains, this year the stalagmite has been unable to rise to the occasion to cause awe-struck wonderment among the gullible worshippers at the Shiva centre.*
> *
> Disappointed pilgrims to the shrine say that a fake ice stalagmite has been now installed at the site because the existing one is too small.
> 
> The fake lingam is said to be made of compacted snow, an unsatisfying crushed ice slushy rather than a natural ice lolly.
> 
> 
> I am 100% convinced the Shiva lingam has been artificially formed and It's made of soft snow and not of naturally formed ice says Praveen Kumar (quoted in the link).
> *
> The belief in question, is so highly respected amongst some, that a retired High Court Judge has been invited to see if the holy lolly is indeed tinier and under endowed, than the simple minded ice phallus worshippers have come to expect.
> *
> A Government Minister is to investigate the allegations that a man-made snowman stalagmite was placed in the cave after the naturally occurring one failed to materialise.*
> 
> Although it is sad? that a lack of ice has managed to send a Shiva through the community ; it supports the notion that Global warming may not be all bad.
> 
> Global warming is demonstrably beneficial if rising temperatures ensure that naturally occurring iceicles are no longer there to be worshipped by simple minded members of the ethnic community as God's very own Todger.
> 
> BBC NEWS | South Asia | 'Fake shrine' inquiry in Kashmir


I cannot believe BBC could be so cold towards a religious community. I will have to write to their headquarters for reporting religious issues with more respect. This is not about common devotees as people they're talking about but a holy site.


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## Ammyy

Jana said:


> BBC NEWS | South Asia | 'Fake shrine' inquiry in Kashmir



*Well If you believe on BBC so they a lot about ISI involvement in Terrorist attacks and about Pakistan's Involved in all this 
*

*Do you want that we discuss them also ???? *

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## Spring Onion

schneider said:


> [url
> and Kaaba is neither God'S creation!!!!




We dont claim its been built by God.

Now come back to the topic. My only objection is that when you are forming a linga from ice in Amarnath and befooling the devotees by saying its been formed by divine powers then isnt it a ploy rather a trick to make it a sentimental issue so that thousands of Hindu devotees come to Indian Occupied Kashmir so that you can have an excuse to grab Kashmir land and also change the demography of the IHK.


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## FreekiN

I like how these threads start as sh.t and get even sh.tier.

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## blueoval79

Parashuram1 said:


> I cannot believe BBC could be so cold towards a religious community. I will have to write to their headquarters for reporting religious issues with more respect. This is not about common devotees as people they're talking about but a holy site.



Buddy...BBC has not reported anything like this.....

Its our Lady reporter on the forum....Miss Jana....who has tried to be smart by copying content form a similar forum and then in an attempt to add weight to her argument she added a link to BBC news article.........

See for yourself:

*This is the original bbc article: *BBC NEWS | South Asia | 'Fake shrine' inquiry in Kashmir[/quote]


*And this is what Jana Posted: *Fake Iceicle sends a Shiva through worshippers . - Stormfront


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## M8R

Blue oval its indeed from BBC - Read the damn article.


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## schneider

blueoval79 said:


> Selective reading....or just blind effort to prove your point....lets see...
> 
> You are so shameless ...that you posted a forum entry and just to add weight to your statement you added a link to BBC news...
> 
> Here is your link from where you picked up this write up of yours....
> 
> Fake Iceicle sends a Shiva through worshippers . - Stormfront
> 
> 
> And with this...... Jana......the great reporter of the forum ...loses all the respect I had for her.
> 
> 
> Thank you very much.



Now I am 100% sure that Kashmir is more of a False religious issue supported by Pakistan in favor of Muslims. Finally they are Islamic Nation and we are secular!!! 
But on the other hand they deny to give refuge to those Muslims who suffered in China. What kind of Islamic Nation is it????

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## Spring Onion

blueoval79 said:


> Selective reading....or just blind effort to prove your point....lets see...
> 
> You are so shameless ...that you posted a forum entry and just to add weight to your statement you added a link to BBC news...
> 
> Here is your link from where you picked up this write up of yours....
> 
> Fake Iceicle sends a Shiva through worshippers . - Stormfront
> 
> 
> And with this...... Jana......the great reporter of the forum ...loses all the respect I had for her.
> 
> 
> Thank you very much.



It was in 2006 and then followed by 2007 the same happened.

I dont know what is this link which you posted. Please check the BBC story. And also check that your own officials were looking into the issue of this fake ice structure scam.

I have posted only BBC and not any Pakistani source because you would have accused it of fake reporting.


And if you dont believe in BBC then next time please do the same in case BBC publish any story about Pakistan


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## blueoval79

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;965616 said:


> Blue oval its indeed from BBC - Read the damn article.



You mean this: 


*'Fake shrine' inquiry in Kashmir"*

*The authorities in Indian-administered Kashmir have ordered an inquiry into malpractice allegations at one of the holiest shrines of the Hindu faith.*
Hindu pilgrims to the Amarnath shrine say that a fake ice stalagmite has been installed at the site because the existing one is too small.

The ice stalagmite is revered by Hindus as a symbol of Shiva.

Every July and August thousands of Hindu pilgrims defy threats from Muslim militants to visit the remote shrine.

*Far smalle*r

Correspondents say that the stalagmite resembles a fertility lingam - or phallus - which is said to form naturally each year from water that freezes.


The trek to the cave is long and arduousGovernor SK Sinha - who is also the chairman of Amarnath Shrine Board - said on Thursday that he had asked a retired high court judge to investigate allegations that a man-made stalagmite was placed in the cave after the naturally occurring one failed to materialise.

The BBC's Altaf Hussain in Srinagar says that this has been blamed on a shortage of snow combined with the wrong temperatures.

Our correspondent says that a naturally-occurring ice stalagmite has now begun to appear, but it is far smaller than in recent years.

In June, a spokesman for the shrine board denied allegations made by the pilgrims that a fake shrine had been installed at the caves.

He said that the board was not a commercial organisation looking for profit, but only a facilitator to regulate and provide logistic support for a smooth pilgrimage.

*He said there was no question of "trampling over the sanctity of the shrine" or playing with the religious sentiments of devotees.

Earlier, a key Hindu priest associated with the shrine expressed serious concerns over the reports that a fake shrine had been built from snow brought from higher ground.*

He said that if they were true, it would be an act of sacrilege.

Shiva is the Hindu God of Destruction. 

The link for Janas post: BBC NEWS | South Asia | 'Fake shrine' inquiry in Kashmir

Go read....and see the difference.


Thhis


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## M8R

and let's face it Hinduism is not a part Abrahamic religions which are considered true religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam )


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## Arjun MBT

Jana said:


> We dont claim its been built by God.
> 
> Now come back to the topic. My only objection is that when you are forming a linga from ice in Amarnath and befooling the devotees by saying its been formed by divine powers then isnt it a ploy rather a trick to make it a sentimental issue so that thousands of Hindu devotees come to Indian Occupied Kashmir so that you can have an excuse to grab Kashmir land and also change the demography of the IHK.



No One said That This is created By Some supernatural force, its created by Our very own nature, In the form of shiva Linga... And The Devotees worship that Beautiful creation of Nature.....The nature has been melting and creating the same Shiva linga for the past 5000 years, might be fake to u, as You do not share Our sentiments, but for us, its divine, Because We consider Divinity is there In every single creation of nature, It will be In You, me, Stone and Everything Created By Nature, is there any harm offering prayers For it???....


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## M8R

Look at the right side of article you will spot

I'm 100&#37; convinced the Shiva lingam has been artificially formed... It's made of soft snow and not of naturally formed ice
Praveen Kumar, Amarnath pilgrim


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## schneider

Jana said:


> We dont claim its been built by God.
> 
> Now come back to the topic. My only objection is that when you are forming a linga from ice in Amarnath and befooling the devotees by saying its been formed by divine powers then isnt it a ploy rather a trick to make it a sentimental issue so that thousands of Hindu devotees come to Indian Occupied Kashmir so that you can have an excuse to grab Kashmir land and also change the demography of the IHK.



But i can prove you that Kabaa its made by God!!!
because everything is created by God and hence we respect it.
That's the only difference between your ideology and ours!!!!!!!!


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## boxer_B

schneider said:


> Kaaba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> and Kaaba is neither God'S creation!!!!



Dude, I am a Hindu too but if someone insults our religion then you should take it as criticism and correct that person polietly without cursing their religion. We are from tolerant, civilized and ,most importantly, progessive civilization due to our vaules and ethics that our nation teaches us. 

Our path has many distractions and foreign elements try to inject hate in our multi-ethnic society, refuse to take the bait. We have made a mark on the moon and soon will be sending Indian in space with second fastest growing economy, don't spoil that for convinencing some low-life extremists. We know where we stand, let them insult our religion. You can reply with "Thank you, come again"


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## blueoval79

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;965624 said:


> Look at the right side of article you will spot
> 
> I'm 100% convinced the Shiva lingam has been artificially formed... It's made of soft snow and not of naturally formed ice
> Praveen Kumar, Amarnath pilgrim



Was this claim verified.....we can collect hundreds of such people falsely claiming the same this about Kabah....and change the name to some Ali ....or Some Hamid...who is to know.


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## Mirza Jatt

Jana said:


> We dont claim its been built by God.
> 
> Now come back to the topic. My only objection is that when you are *forming a linga from ice in Amarnath and befooling the devotees *by saying its been formed by divine powers then isnt it a ploy rather a trick to make it a sentimental issue so that thousands of Hindu devotees come to Indian Occupied Kashmir so that you can have an excuse to grab Kashmir land and also change the demography of the IHK.



prove it that it is manually formed...it might be smaller,but it forms itself...

I know its not divine for you...I dont care..but dont insult the religion by *false claims*...we arent saying anything about Islam ...


----------



## schneider

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;965621 said:


> and let's face it Hinduism is not a part Abrahamic religions which are considered true religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam )



Hindus do not belive in one perticular RELIGION. It is a way of living life!!!

that's why we are Secular!!!


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## Spring Onion

Parashuram1 said:


> *Can you keep religion out of this* ?! I have been reading all 22 pages and the discussion was going interesting and neutral from my side adding to knowledge about your perspective.
> 
> Have you been there to Amarnath? NO. Do you have any idea of its history? No. I have been there enough times with my family as have other Hindus from world over and know about the place.
> 
> Then why don't you stick to the topic and keep religion out?
> 
> How would you feel if we say that Kaaba is not holy?
> 
> Therefore, don't talk about what you don't know. You are not only offending Indians but Hindus worldwide whether of Indian origin or not.




Thank you for clearing about religion  i thought you were not Indian earlier.
*

2. NO One is questioning the holiness of Shiv linga for Hindus. No one is insulting it either because its your religion and i have nothing to insult your religion.*
*

See the context. There is this cave in Held Kashmir and that too in Muslim dominated area, then there is a story linked to the Cave (ok we dont touch the history and reality of that cave) all we are saying that this structure of linga had been melting for the last few years and Indian authorities have been making a fake Ice linga to get the yatra system going on.


We also had seen how the Kashmir valley turned into a battle field when Indians tried to grab Kashmir land and on the same pretext tried to change the demography of Kashmir by scheming to bring more Hindus from Indian states to Held Kashmir on pretext of Amarnath Yatra and hence make settlements in Kashmir valley 
*


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## Arjun MBT

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;965621 said:


> and let's face it Hinduism is not a part Abrahamic religions which are considered true religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam )



Well thats Because Hinduism as we call it was a form of life, before Islam , Christianity ever came into existence,....

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## schneider

Indian Jatt said:


> prove it that it is manually formed...
> 
> it might be smaller,but it forms itself...I know its not divine for you...I dont care..but dont insult the religion by *false claims*...we arent saying anything about Islam ...



they cannot prove it buddy.


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## boxer_B

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;965621 said:


> and let's face it Hinduism is not a part Abrahamic religions which are considered true religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam )



Yes, Hinduism is downright ugliest and a hoax, a fraud to trick sub-continental humans into worshipping idol. 

Thank you, come again

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## schneider

Jana said:


> Thank you for clearing about religion  i thought you were not Indian earlier.
> *
> 
> 2. NO One is questioning the holiness of Shiv linga for Hindus. No one is insulting it either because its your religion and i have nothing to insult your religion.*
> *
> 
> See the context. There is this cave in Held Kashmir and that too in Muslim dominated area, then there is a story linked to the Cave (ok we dont touch the history and reality of that cave) all we are saying that this structure of linga had been melting for the last few years and Indian authorities have been making a fake Ice linga to get the yatra system going on.
> 
> 
> We also had seen how the Kashmir valley turned into a battle field when Indians tried to grab Kashmir land and on the same pretext tried to change the demography of Kashmir by scheming to bring more Hindus from Indian states to Held Kashmir on pretext of Amarnath Yatra and hence make settlements in Kashmir valley
> *



then you prove its fake!!


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## Parashuram1

> Thank you for clearing about religion  i thought you were not Indian earlier.
> *
> 
> 2. NO One is questioning the holiness of Shiv linga for Hindus. No one is insulting it either because its your religion and i have nothing to insult your religion.*
> *
> 
> See the context. There is this cave in Held Kashmir and that too in Muslim dominated area, then there is a story linked to the Cave (ok we dont touch the history and reality of that cave) all we are saying that this structure of linga had been melting for the last few years and Indian authorities have been making a fake Ice linga to get the yatra system going on.
> 
> 
> We also had seen how the Kashmir valley turned into a battle field when Indians tried to grab Kashmir land and on the same pretext tried to change the demography of Kashmir by scheming to bring more Hindus from Indian states to Held Kashmir on pretext of Amarnath Yatra and hence make settlements in Kashmir valley
> *


[/QUOTE]
Are you an ARAB or a Muslim? Should I take you as either despite you having voiced severe opinions against Arabs in other threads? 

*Unfortunately you have trouble understanding to keep religion and politics away from each other*. Hinduism has deeply influenced the West in many ways.

Kashmiri issue is a matter between you and Indians and I will keep out of that since your regional politics has nothing to do with me or my country. However, when you bring in religion (Hinduism in this case), I have an equal right to participate and debate.

Since you are pitifully ignorant for a profession that you claim to be in and hold a strong faith on video proofs, Let me post something for you so as to clarify who I am:


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## Spring Onion

blueoval79 said:


> You mean this:
> 
> 
> *'Fake shrine' inquiry in Kashmir"*
> 
> *The authorities in Indian-administered Kashmir have ordered an inquiry into malpractice allegations at one of the holiest shrines of the Hindu faith.*
> Hindu pilgrims to the Amarnath shrine say that a fake ice stalagmite has been installed at the site because the existing one is too small.
> 
> The ice stalagmite is revered by Hindus as a symbol of Shiva.
> 
> Every July and August thousands of Hindu pilgrims defy threats from Muslim militants to visit the remote shrine.
> 
> *Far smalle*r
> 
> Correspondents say that the stalagmite resembles a fertility lingam - or phallus - which is said to form naturally each year from water that freezes.
> 
> 
> The trek to the cave is long and arduous*Governor SK Sinha - who is also the chairman of Amarnath Shrine Board - said on Thursday that he had asked a retired high court judge to investigate allegations that a man-made stalagmite was placed in the cave after the naturally occurring one failed to materialise.
> *
> *The BBC's Altaf Hussain in Srinagar says that this has been blamed on a shortage of snow combined with the wrong temperatures.
> *
> Our correspondent says that a naturally-occurring ice stalagmite has now begun to appear, but it is far smaller than in recent years.
> 
> In June, a spokesman for the shrine board denied allegations made by the pilgrims that a fake shrine had been installed at the caves.
> 
> He said that the board was not a commercial organisation looking for profit, but only a facilitator to regulate and provide logistic support for a smooth pilgrimage.
> 
> *He said there was no question of "trampling over the sanctity of the shrine" or playing with the religious sentiments of devotees.
> 
> Earlier, a key Hindu priest associated with the shrine expressed serious concerns over the reports that a fake shrine had been built from snow brought from higher ground.*
> 
> He said that if they were true, it would be an act of sacrilege.
> 
> Shiva is the Hindu God of Destruction.
> 
> The link for Janas post: BBC NEWS | South Asia | 'Fake shrine' inquiry in Kashmir
> 
> Go read....and see the difference.
> 
> 
> Thhis




Please the red parts in your own post


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## schneider

boxer_B said:


> Dude, I am a Hindu too but if someone insults our religion then you should take it as criticism and correct that person polietly without cursing their religion. We are from tolerant, civilized and ,most importantly, progessive civilization due to our vaules and ethics that our nation teaches us.
> 
> Our path has many distractions and foreign elements try to inject hate in our multi-ethnic society, refuse to take the bait. We have made a mark on the moon and soon will be sending Indian in space with second fastest growing economy, don't spoil that for convinencing some low-life extremists. We know where we stand, let them insult our religion. You can reply with "Thank you, come again"



read the next post after this which i had posted..
there is mentiond that if not muslims but Hindus can prove that it's a God's creation, because we believe eveything is created by one super power. That why we respect everything be it real artificial, existing or non existing.


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## Spring Onion

Parashuram1 said:


> *
> Are you an ARAB?*


*

I am a Pakistani  *


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## blueoval79

Jana said:


> Please the red parts in your own post



Was anything proved.....no.....just a rumor...and the press hogged upon it ....

And may be they did something....but I am not questioning that...

I am against what you did....you posted wrong material from a post on a forum... ...and supported it with the wrong link from BBC..thinking that no one is going to find out....so much for a reporter.......

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## schneider

LOL^^
hahaha yeah!!


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## Mirza Jatt

blueoval79 said:


> Was anything proved.....no.....just a rumor...and the press hogged upon it ....
> 
> And may be they did something....but I am not questioning that...
> 
> I am against what you did....you posted wrong material from a post on a forum... ...and supported it with the wrong link from BBC..thinking that no one is going to find out....so much for a reporter.......



Miss jana has deliberately posted that false link just to insult Hinduism...just because she is a Muslim...I should not say this..but thats what is coming to my mind..after seeing her attempts.

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## aristocrat

@jana
the entire episode started with environmental concerns ,which was then politicized into hindu vs muslim ,kashmiri vs non kashmiri issue[the elections were very close]
The idea of scheming to fill kashmir with hindus is a bit farfetched though.No one tells us where to go and live,its our choice.


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## Raghu

Jana said:


> We dont claim its been built by God.
> 
> Now come back to the topic. My only objection is that when you are forming a linga from ice in Amarnath and befooling the devotees by saying its been formed by divine powers then isnt it a ploy rather a trick to make it a sentimental issue so that thousands of Hindu devotees come to Indian Occupied Kashmir so that you can have an excuse to grab Kashmir land and also change the demography of the IHK.



Miss Farjana Shah,

U are well known for ur poor judgment,lack of knowledge and serious bias for any thing that's Hindu.

That ice piece at Amaranth is being worshiped as shiv linga for centuries ,not for last few years. *It has spritual background and many religious legends attached it as why that particular ice is considered divine.*

With rise of temperature ,its normal for charges to appear in shape and size of the structure ,but it doesn't lessen neither its spritual significance nor our believe in Baba Amaranth.

*For anyone who may try to vandalize the structure or add artificial ice to it, Lord Shiva is watching and we are Hindus alive.You need not bother at all*.


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## Raghu

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;965621 said:


> and let's face it Hinduism is not a part Abrahamic religions which are considered true religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam )



Making flame baits...if we start about ur religion ,then u'll feel seriously hurt.

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## Dash

asq said:


> did u read my details about forcible taking over by India of all the princely states instead of allowing the promised to accept the people choice.


How would you feel if I say your heart is mine???


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

Asim Aquil said:


> Freedom of Kashmiris is supreme. I think India is simply disregarding the amount of disdain the Kashmiris have for India. No amount of weaponry, torture and physical abuse would deter this drive for freedom.



existentialists are not subdued by cheap physical intimidation

if they were, they wouldnt be in the streets in the first place.....lately, the anti-indian sentiment is rising


(and as a reply, hindustany will bring up that sham poll as well as Kashmiri elections --in which the political leaders are basically being paid and given accomodation and land to speak in favour of hindstan)


and it appears from replies like that of ''doc'' -- the hindustanys are actually doing us a favour by making (further) enmity with the people of Occupied Kashmir. 

What happened especially in Shopian is still fresh in many peoples' minds.


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## Prometheus

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> existentialists are not subdued by cheap physical intimidation
> 
> if they were, they wouldnt be in the streets in the first place.....lately, the anti-indian sentiment is rising
> 
> 
> (and as a reply, hindustany will bring up that sham poll as well as Kashmiri elections --in which the political leaders are basically being paid and given accomodation and land to speak in favour of hindstan)
> 
> 
> and it appears from replies like that of ''doc'' -- the hindustanys are actually doing us a favour by making (further) enmity with the people of Occupied Kashmir.
> 
> What happened especially in Shopian is still fresh in many peoples' minds.


we are very evil people..........I completly agree.

But this is Kalyug................Time of evil people to rise

for how long someone can protest????>............eventually they will go to school or try to find a work to do


----------



## Sudesh Lahri

Lashkar behind Kashmir trouble: Chidambaram​
NEW DELHI: Home minister P. Chidambaram on Wednesday said the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) was fomenting trouble in the Kashmir Valley where 11 civilians have died in firing by security forces on protesting mobs in the last month. 

"The anti-national forces are linked to the Lashkar-e-Taiba," Chidambaram told reporters, when asked if the elements he had blamed Tuesday for inciting agitation in the Valley were from Pakistan. 

He said the LeT was active in the north Kashmir Sopore town, the worst hit by violent street protests. 

"Two militants were killed in an operation on June 25 in Krankshivan colony of Sopore. The LeT is active there," he said. 

After attending a meeting convened by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh over the situation in Kashmir, Chidambaram told a gathering of mediapersons that the government has asked the security forces to show maximum restraints while dealing with troublemakers. 

Chidambaram further said that anti-national elements linked to terror outfit Lashkar-e-Taiba were trying to foment trouble in Sopore area of Kashmir. 

The high level meeting on Kashmir was attended by Union home minister P Chidambaram, defence minister A K Antony and senior officials of his ministry, Prime Minister's Office and from security agencies. 

The ministers took note of intelligence reports that suggested certain elements from Pakistan were trying to foment trouble in the Valley. 

National Security Advisor Shiv Shankar Menon also attended the meeting. 

As the law and order situation worsened in the Valley, the Jammu and Kashmir government Wednesday clamped an indefinite curfew in south Kashmir towns of Anantnag, Kulgam and Pulwama while the restriction continued without any relaxation for the fifth day in Sopore and for the second day in Srinagar to curb widespread violence.


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## Hulk

I knew it, this is all stage managed. They have changed their plans from terrorism to stone pelting. Now Lashkar is opening a camp on stone pelting I guess and how to formant trouble.


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## Ammyy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> existentialists are not subdued by cheap physical intimidation
> 
> if they were, they wouldnt be in the streets in the first place.....lately, the anti-indian sentiment is rising
> 
> 
> (and as a reply, hindustany will bring up that sham poll as well as Kashmiri elections --in which the *political leaders are basically being paid and given accomodation *and land to speak in favour of hindstan)
> 
> 
> and it appears from replies like that of ''doc'' -- the hindustanys are actually doing us a favour by making (further) enmity with the people of Occupied Kashmir.
> 
> What happened especially in Shopian is still fresh in many peoples' minds.



You said that ...really 

In P O K government have no rights ... they cant even take any *decision* ...they just follow pakistan`s instruction on the other hand in J&K gov have full right they dnt need help of center


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## Hulk

I will tell you clearly. I do not want to hide behind diplomacy.
The maximum amount of fight around the world happens over land, girl and wealth.
So land is important, no matter who considers what we are not giving Kashmir, plain and simple. If it is right or wrong I do not care. India was also invaded so many times in past which was not right either.

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## Dash

indianrabbit said:


> I knew it, this is all stage managed. They have changed their plans from terrorism to stone pelting. Now Lashkar is opening a camp on stone pelting I guess and how to formant trouble.


The direct involvement of mujahideens post karhil was a matter of big mistrust and shame for terrorists and supporting people. 

Even they dont admit that 26/11 was their creation but the investigation reports point everything on it.

So resorting to newer and cleverer methodes is the new key..

But I know that bullet is stronger than stones..Iam sure only those are killed who have pelted the stones...

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## Dash

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;965621 said:


> and let's face it Hinduism is not a part Abrahamic religions which are considered true religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam )


and you know what??.

Lets face this.....You fight with all of them...not typically you but your brothers.


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## Srinivas

The troubles in the kashmir valley are funded across the border soon these separatists, who are getting support from the anti India elements will be faded away the moment the people in the valley realize the real reason behind the unrest.

Anti India elements are using these innocent crowd to their advantage. Soon Let and the people who are supporting these troubles will be dealt with death blow.


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## javaman

y don't they shot them in head,as they r not in large number.


----------



## Kashmiri Nationalist

Sudesh Lahri said:


> Lashkar behind Kashmir trouble: Chidambaram​
> NEW DELHI: Home minister P. Chidambaram on Wednesday said the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) was fomenting trouble in the Kashmir Valley where 11 civilians have died in firing by security forces on protesting mobs in the last month.
> 
> "The anti-national forces are linked to the Lashkar-e-Taiba," Chidambaram told reporters, when asked if the elements he had blamed Tuesday for inciting agitation in the Valley were from Pakistan.
> 
> He said the LeT was active in the north Kashmir Sopore town, the worst hit by violent street protests.
> 
> "Two militants were killed in an operation on June 25 in Krankshivan colony of Sopore. The LeT is active there," he said.
> 
> After attending a meeting convened by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh over the situation in Kashmir, Chidambaram told a gathering of mediapersons that the government has asked the security forces to show maximum restraints while dealing with troublemakers.
> 
> Chidambaram further said that anti-national elements linked to terror outfit Lashkar-e-Taiba were trying to foment trouble in Sopore area of Kashmir.
> 
> The high level meeting on Kashmir was attended by Union home minister P Chidambaram, defence minister A K Antony and senior officials of his ministry, Prime Minister's Office and from security agencies.
> 
> The ministers took note of intelligence reports that suggested certain elements from Pakistan were trying to foment trouble in the Valley.
> 
> National Security Advisor Shiv Shankar Menon also attended the meeting.
> 
> As the law and order situation worsened in the Valley, the Jammu and Kashmir government Wednesday clamped an indefinite curfew in south Kashmir towns of Anantnag, Kulgam and Pulwama while the restriction continued without any relaxation for the fifth day in Sopore and for the second day in Srinagar to curb widespread violence.



Oh, I've heard it all nowCarry on denieing your oppression, this will not be the worst protest in Kashmir. What else have you guys blamed on "terrioist's"? Do doubt that LeT is behind the fake insurgent killing. 

May Allah be with the families of those shaheed.

Kashmir ki Azadi struggle Zindabad!

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## javaman

Azad Kashmir said:


> Oh, I've heard it all nowCarry on denieing your oppression, this will not be the worst protest in Kashmir. What else have you guys blamed on "terrioist's"? Do doubt that LeT is behind the fake insurgent killing.
> 
> May Allah be with the families of those shaheed.
> 
> Kashmir ki Azadi struggle Zindabad!



ya ya zindabad,integral india zindabad


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

javaman said:


> y don't they shot them in head,as they r not in large number.



That's your answer for everything. Did you enjoy seeing 10 people doing that in Mumbai? No, well it's the same for my homeland.


----------



## Evil Flare

javaman said:


> ya ya zindabad,integral india zindabad



The People Live on that Land are the owners of that Land .. Not the Outsiders .


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

Aamir Zia said:


> The People Live on that Land are the owners of that Land .. Not the Outsiders .



it is true incase of india and pakistan.


----------



## anurag_singh

Only one answer to all these problems :-
Divide J&k in 3 part.(i) Jammu (ii) Kashmir Valley (iii) Laddakh
Make Jammu a normal province (without any special status).
Make Laddakh an Union territory.
Now Problem lies only in Kashmir valley.
Apply Presidential rule in Kashmir valley and remove article 370 of constitution. 
Shift at least 1.5 million from all india to kashmir,
In the same amount shift kashmiris to other part of india.
Give them opportunities and try for their integration in Indian Unioun.
It's my thought.


----------



## zagahaga

honestely let kashmir be independant nither pakistan or india just like bangladesh


----------



## gubbi

anurag_singh said:


> Only one answer to all these problems :-
> Divide J&k in 3 part.(i) Jammu (ii) Kashmir Valley (iii) Laddakh
> Make Jammu a normal province (without any special status).
> Make Laddakh an Union territory.
> Now Problem lies only in Kashmir valley.
> Apply Presidential rule in Kashmir valley and remove article 370 of constitution.
> Shift at least 1.5 million from all india to kashmir,
> In the same amount shift kashmiris to other part of india.
> Give them opportunities and try for their integration in Indian Unioun.
> It's my thought.



Lol, you need a Stalin or a Mao to do that! Democracy in India will not allow that to happen.


----------



## javaman

Azad Kashmir said:


> That's your answer for everything. Did you enjoy seeing 10 people doing that in Mumbai? No, well it's the same for my homeland.



ppl who r against the security and integrity of india will have their shot down.so what ever it is mumbai or these paid protestors,
btw frm where u belong.


----------



## asq

indianrabbit said:


> Absolutely my point, they are making no effort to get peace. It is very easy IMO.



Well it depends on the oppressor/occupier, if occupier has even a spec of humanity, he will be furious at killing of innocents and will be quick to denounce the opression and will hold plebicite 60 years ago.


----------



## anurag_singh

gubbi said:


> Lol, you need a Stalin or a Mao to do that! Democracy in India will not allow that to happen.



Buddy I know that but at least one tough decision need to be taken for the integrity of this country.


----------



## dabong1

anurag_singh said:


> Only one answer to all these problems :-
> Divide J&k in 3 part.(i) Jammu (ii) Kashmir Valley (iii) Laddakh
> Make Jammu a normal province (without any special status).
> Make Laddakh an Union territory.
> Now Problem lies only in Kashmir valley.
> Apply Presidential rule in Kashmir valley and remove article 370 of constitution.
> Shift at least 1.5 million from all india to kashmir,
> In the same amount shift kashmiris to other part of india.
> Give them opportunities and try for their integration in Indian Unioun.
> It's my thought.




They should try your formula on the sikhs first and see if it works......what do you think?

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## aristocrat

60 years ago??but sir the kashmir problem only erupted 1989 onwards


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## asq

gubbi said:


> Lol, you need a Stalin or a Mao to do that! Democracy in India will not allow that to happen.



u can call it Democracy, but if u have even a spec of decency u will refrain from calling it so. Reasons are following.

1. maoists and nexalites have been waiting to be delivered for 60 years, not even a iota of considerations. In Democracy allpeople share it equaly.

2. Kashmiris have a genuine objection to the forced amalgamation and of their land and of Indian rule, if u have iota of decency and Indian had the real Democracy it will not continue to kill for 60 years no matter if they are as u lebal them infiltrators. u honestly do something about this and must stop killing. Remember killing one humn is as if killed the whole humanity.

3. In a real Democracy as it is in Canada u listen to the greviences and allow people to choose as Cananda did in the case of Quebec, What a great Country run by and for Democracy. I stand and salute Canada.

4. your statement about Indian never allowing plebicite is a statement of a DICTATOR and that is what India is as it did not hasitate for a second to attack Sikh Holy places to kill people who questioned the rule and wanted more say as they wanted to say that punjab is for Punjabis. it is a shame that India used force and killed hundereds of which many innocents. A shamefull act. very unlike a Democratic country.


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## Awesome

aristocrat said:


> 60 years ago??but sir the kashmir problem only erupted 1989 onwards


hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha.

Read.


----------



## Sudesh Lahri

^^

He means your country sponsored terrorism(real prob for us) only started in 1989 and its dying its logical death now..

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## gubbi

asq said:


> u can call it Democracy, but if u have even a spec of decency u will refrain from calling it so. Reasons are following.
> 
> 1. maoists and nexalites have been waiting to be delivered for 60 years, not even a iota of considerations. In Democracy allpeople share it equaly.
> 
> 2. Kashmiris have a genuine objection to the forced amalgamation and of their land and of Indian rule, if u have iota of decency and Indian had the real Democracy it will not continue to kill for 60 years no matter if they are as u lebal them infiltrators. u honestly do something about this and must stop killing. Remember killing one humn is as if killed the whole humanity.
> 
> 3. In a real Democracy as it is in Canada u listen to the greviences and allow people to choose as Cananda did in the case of Quebec, What a great Country run by and for Democracy. I stand and salute Canada.
> 
> 4. your statement about Indian never allowing plebicite is a statement of a DICTATOR and that is what India is as it did not hasitate for a second to attack Sikh Holy places to kill people who questioned the rule and wanted more say as they wanted to say that punjab is for Punjabis. it is a shame that India used force and killed hundereds of which many innocents. A shamefull act. very unlike a Democratic country.



IMHO, your post can be qualified as a rant.

You need to educate yourself about democracy and how it works. 

Next, you need to study the origins of the Naxalite movement and how they evolved to be the terrorist group that they are now. And yet, there is a reason as to why it is being dealt with by the police forces instead of by the Army.

Third, Kashmir problem is a creation by Pakistani establishment in a mad land grab race after independence. For all the noise that Pakistanis make about Kashmiri plebiscite, read the UN resolution No.47 carefully, you will see what it exactly specifies and you will also notice that it was passed under Article VI (non-binding) as opposed to Article VII (binding and subject to UNSC actions). Read the part where it is required by Pakistan to vacate the territory before any plebiscite can be carried out. Pakistan chose to ignore it and thus set a precedent for any actions on Kashmir. Educate yourself.

Lastly, you really need to educate about all the terrorist incidents that took place in India. You need to understand the politics as to why such groups came into existence and why they had to be eliminated, with the blessings of the Constitution of India. 

Its a shame that some elements in Kashmir are using the freedom granted by the Indian Constitution to raise their voice against supposed atrocities. India should withdraw all privileges provided to Kashmiris by the Constitution of India and then lets see how they fare. Lets give them a real reason to protest, without giving them a voice. We should give you a reason to make your feelings for them real. How would you like that, eh?

Calling Indian democracy as a dictatorship just shows your level of intelligence and questions your ability to understand national and international affairs. 

Thanks.

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## Kashmiri Nationalist

javaman said:


> ppl who r against the security and integrity of india will have their shot down.so what ever it is mumbai or these paid protestors,
> btw frm where u belong.



What about security and intergritty of Kashmir? Do you think only paid protestors would protest about the fake insurgent's killing? Do you think the people would not protest of their own right when Indian forces commit a rape?

Also, clue is in my name, where I'm from


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## Awesome

Sudesh Lahri said:


> ^^
> 
> He means your country sponsored terrorism(real prob for us) only started in 1989 and its dying its logical death now..


And we can see the padded and kitted people who are dying a miserable death here...


----------



## Hulk

Asim Aquil said:


> And we can see the padded and kitted people who are dying a miserable death here...



If Kashmiri's had a problem in 48 why did they not revolt till 1989?
Why did they not come on street like today when Kargil happened? Don't you think people wanting freedom should have done that?

Trouble can be created.

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## anurag_singh

dabong1 said:


> They should try your formula on the sikhs first and see if it works......what do you think?



Sikhs don't have a problem in India. So My formula need to be applied in Kashmir directly.


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## Hulk

anurag_singh said:


> Sikhs don't have a problem in India. So My formula need to be applied in Kashmir directly.



Dude the problem in only in some areas, why it is always Sopor that has all these incidences? Think about that.


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## anurag_singh

indianrabbit said:


> Dude the problem in only in some areas, why it is always Sopor that has all these incidences? Think about that.



ok let us assume that problem is limited in only some areas but what is the problem with my approach. China has already applied it in East turkistan(Xingiyang) and Tibbet.


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## nForce

hmmm...nice nice....lets gets busy on the keyboard,shall we???

I will try to post my arguments in an organized manner....



> 1. maoists and nexalites have been waiting to be delivered for 60 years, not even a iota of considerations. In Democracy allpeople share it equaly.



The rivers of democracy don't start flowing from the barrel of a gun.....enough said....
I dont know what definition of Democracy you follow.

While you are half way around the World in Canada(I assume),I was born and brought up in a place which is considered to be one of the most naxalite infested region..Be rest assured,I know more about ground realities.I know for a fact that these people are of no good.



> 2. Kashmiris have a genuine objection to the forced amalgamation and of their land and of Indian rule, if u have iota of decency and Indian had the real Democracy it will not continue to kill for 60 years no matter if they are as u lebal them infiltrators. u honestly do something about this and must stop killing. Remember killing one humn is as if killed the whole humanity.



The insurgency problems in Kashmir are due to external agencies which are based mainly in Pakistan.The idea of employing terrorism as external state policy was originally formulated by Zia ul Haq.Even former President of Pakistan Parvez Musharraf admitted to using this policy in his own autobiography, "In the Line of Fire: A Memoir".The paperback edition comes for $20.47 at amazon.U can have a look at it if u want to....
The Indian Army is basically stationed in Kashmir because the Democratic Republic of India reserves its rights to protect its territories from external threats,threats which are very much real and much more than any other province in India.Events like the Kargil war has infact proved and thereby proved this ...

Reference reading....



> 3. In a real Democracy as it is in Canada u listen to the greviences and allow people to choose as Cananda did in the case of Quebec, What a great Country run by and for Democracy. I stand and salute Canada.



No comments.I never been to Canada.I think I know very little about Canada,and I dont like to comment on anything I dont have proper knowledge about....



> 4. your statement about Indian never allowing plebicite is a statement of a DICTATOR and that is what India is as it did not hasitate for a second to attack Sikh Holy places to kill people who questioned the rule and wanted more say as they wanted to say that punjab is for Punjabis. it is a shame that India used force and killed hundereds of which many innocents. A shamefull act. very unlike a Democratic country.




I will assume that u r talking about Plebiscite in the state of Jammu & Kashmir.Well,at this point let me tell u that I ll have to play the role of a myth buster over here.One of the condition for Plebiscite according to Article 47(1948) of UNSC was "To secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purposes of fighting, and to prevent any intrusion into the State of such elements and any furnishing of material aid to those fighting in the State"...This clause was never fulfilled considering Pakistan still holds a part of the territory,the part which was actually annexed by these fighting tribesmen.So,I dont find a reason for India to hold its own end true while the other party has not complied to its own part.
U can have a look at a copy of the original resolution and tell me whether I am giving the correct information or not.Here is a link...


RESOLUTION 47 (1948) ON THE INDIA-PAKISTAN QUESTION SUBMITTED JOINTLY BY THE REPRESENTATIVES FOR BELGIUM, CANADA, CHINA, COLUMBIA, THE UNITED KINGDOM AND UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND ADOPTED BY THE SECURITY COUNCIL AT ITS 286TH MEETING HELD ON 21 APRIL, 1948. (DOCUMENT NO. S/726, DATED THE 21ST APRIL, 1948).


Reference reading.....


Now let us move our focus to the Sikh issue.I think u r addressing Operation Bluestar launched by the Indian Govt.I just wonder what were all those guns,grenades and rocket launchers doing inside the Golden temple of Amritsar if the movement was at all a peaceful one.Can u tell me where from all these weapons came??The whole of Punjab is definitely not separatist.On contrary the brave sons of Punjab are as patriotic as anyone in India can be.
I ll post an entire video documentary that shows the arms haul inside the Golden Temple after the operation.












Almost similar situations were faced in Pakistan during the Lal Masjid event.Care to tell me ur views about it???



> u can call it Democracy, but if u have even a spec of decency u will refrain from calling it so. Reasons are following.




Last but not the least...I have already posted my arguments to ur reasons...Please go through them...But I must address this part i particular....Its rather funny to see this coming from someone of Pakistani origin....a country where Democracy had been regularly strangled by frequent military coupe.. 

I will give u an entire list:

1. 1958:Military coup in Pakistan. Army Chief and Defence Minister Gen. Ayub Khan overthrows the government of Iskander Mirza and becomes President after a winning a rigged referendum.

2.1969:Military coup in Pakistan, Army Chief Gen. Yahya Khan forces President Field Marshal Ayub Khan (who himself came to power in a coup) to hand over power to him.

3.1977:Military coup in Pakistan with U.S. support. Army Chief Gen. Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq overthrows the civilian government and hangs Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto in 1979 after a sham trial.

4.1999:Military coup in Pakistan. Army refuses to obey Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif's government. General Pervez Musharraf becomes president (with the title "Chief Executive") and exiles Sharif to Saudi Arabia allegedly on a self-exile ten-year contract of not participating in politics, after he was convicted of hijacking and sentenced to life imprisonment.

Having said all these,many people may think that I am prejudiced against Pakistanis or Pakistan,which is not true.I just expect some people to do a bit of retrospection before actually posting ...........

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## k_n

Jana said:


> *
> Fake Iceicle sends a Shiva through worshippers .*
> 
> An unanticipated benefit of alleged Global warming is that it may help reduce the diversity of backwardness in the "community", as this case shows:
> *
> The authorities have ordered an inquiry into malpractice allegations at one of the holiest shrines of the Hindu faith where for years an upside down iceicle has been worshipped as a symbol of Shiva the God of Destruction.*
> 
> Community members claim that the stalagmite is a phallic fertility lingam (literally penis)  comprised of an upside down iceicle which is said to rise up naturally each year from dripping water that freezes on the ground.
> 
> Every year, thousands of worldwide pilgrims defy death threats from locals subscribing to a well known peace religion, to visit the remote shrine of their God Shivas icy phallus sited near the Pakistan border of Kashmir.
> 
> Shiva the God of Destruction has now been emasculated by a warm spell .
> 
> *Perhaps due to a Global-Warming induced lack of water and insufficiently cold temperatures in the mountains, this year the stalagmite has been unable to rise to the occasion to cause awe-struck wonderment among the gullible worshippers at the Shiva centre.*
> *
> Disappointed pilgrims to the shrine say that a fake ice stalagmite has been now installed at the site because the existing one is too small.
> 
> The fake lingam is said to be made of compacted snow, an unsatisfying crushed ice slushy rather than a natural ice lolly.
> 
> 
> I am 100% convinced the Shiva lingam has been artificially formed and It's made of soft snow and not of naturally formed ice says Praveen Kumar (quoted in the link).
> *
> The belief in question, is so highly respected amongst some, that a retired High Court Judge has been invited to see if the holy lolly is indeed tinier and under endowed, than the simple minded ice phallus worshippers have come to expect.
> *
> A Government Minister is to investigate the allegations that a man-made snowman stalagmite was placed in the cave after the naturally occurring one failed to materialise.*
> 
> Although it is sad? that a lack of ice has managed to send a Shiva through the community ; it supports the notion that Global warming may not be all bad.
> 
> Global warming is demonstrably beneficial if rising temperatures ensure that naturally occurring iceicles are no longer there to be worshipped by simple minded members of the ethnic community as God's very own Todger.
> 
> BBC NEWS | South Asia | 'Fake shrine' inquiry in Kashmir



Listen sweety , I didnt want to reply you on this but you are taking it too far . 
This report from BBc is from which year ?? Go and check that ... The melting of Shiv Linga was reported on EVERY SINGLE INDIAN NEWS CHANNEL . They blasted the security forces for touching the Linga with hands and taking their shoes near the Linga , all this was captured on some private video showing gaurds doing the 'DARSHAN' before the rush begins . 

Ask a Muslim Kashmiri , if you have any friend or contact in J & K . They know the truth very well . All these years mutual respect for each other's beliefs still exists . 
Your un-necessary bickering just made it clear , at least to me , that its easier for GOI to deal with Kashmiris than deal with GOP and Pakistanis .

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## k_n

dabong1 said:


> They should try your formula on the sikhs first and see if it works......what do you think?



Day dreaming . Here you might be intending to gain a few browny points from the sikh community but dude next time be sure before you write such a thing . A Sardar might give you a tight one for making their community look like a joke


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## asq

gubbi said:


> IMHO, your post can be qualified as a rant.
> 
> You need to educate yourself about democracy and how it works.
> 
> Next, you need to study the origins of the Naxalite movement and how they evolved to be the terrorist group that they are now. And yet, there is a reason as to why it is being dealt with by the police forces instead of by the Army.
> 
> Third, Kashmir problem is a creation by Pakistani establishment in a mad land grab race after independence. For all the noise that Pakistanis make about Kashmiri plebiscite, read the UN resolution No.47 carefully, you will see what it exactly specifies and you will also notice that it was passed under Article VI (non-binding) as opposed to Article VII (binding and subject to UNSC actions). Read the part where it is required by Pakistan to vacate the territory before any plebiscite can be carried out. Pakistan chose to ignore it and thus set a precedent for any actions on Kashmir. Educate yourself.
> 
> Lastly, you really need to educate about all the terrorist incidents that took place in India. You need to understand the politics as to why such groups came into existence and why they had to be eliminated, with the blessings of the Constitution of India.
> 
> Its a shame that some elements in Kashmir are using the freedom granted by the Indian Constitution to raise their voice against supposed atrocities. India should withdraw all privileges provided to Kashmiris by the Constitution of India and then lets see how they fare. Lets give them a real reason to protest, without giving them a voice. We should give you a reason to make your feelings for them real. How would you like that, eh?
> 
> Calling Indian democracy as a dictatorship just shows your level of intelligence and questions your ability to understand national and international affairs.
> 
> Thanks.



All your explanation defy the logic, the truth on the ground and the excuse for the killing are a mere try to continue killing with these lame excuses.

As i said before will say it again India is no Democray and it is using world siding with it due to totally wrong assumptions about Pakistan.


Assumptions usualy do not last long and long and time is near when the truth shall come out glaring at you.

About U.N and its resolution will be implemented against all those who refuse it, be u or Israel, time is on the side of oppressed and occupied.

Now i have read the resolution and it say all forces to be withdrawn and just for your info Liaqat ali Khan the first Prime minster of Pakistn did with draw foeces from srinangar airport to the point where LOC is waiting for India to respond in kind for implementation of the resolution further.

But India is what it is it defies all notices just like Israel, it defies all freedom fighter calling it this or that and does not want to see the ground realities.

Well one day India will have to face it, a good country will face sooner and stop killing innocnt, on the other hand overconfidant country will continue to use it brutal force and its short imunity to kill. I believe that truth has its way of comming back and next time it might come back with a vangenace.

Watch out u over confidant, sitting in ivory tower: pidram sultan bood, dudes.


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## asq

No sir u r wrong we are fighting against tyrany, arbitrary killing and occupation by indian forces counting to half million soldiers raping, killng and haressing to controll Kashmir and its good people.


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## asq

All this illmannered unreasonable talk is about Kashmir, insults being thrown, inhuman statmets are made, a shamefull behaviour for what.

Kashmir, U indians pay attention either continue to kll what ever your reason or do the right thing and hold plebecite and be done with it.

But stuborn people with strange agendas rather kill than do a small thing and get over it but no it is the agenda of India to keep killing may those be infltrators or freeom fighters.

Man o man stop klling and do the right thing.

Or keep killing for next 60 years, choice is yours.

but than it may not be sixty years, the war could come again and this time lots of people will get killed because both countries have WMD and those will be used if the existance of either country is at peril.

so be smart and work to preseve life not work to become the source of human deaths.

So think about it Indians.


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## asq

raks27uk said:


> Shaivism has roots in Kashmir history going back thousands of years, Kashmir has many ancient temples & shrines some of which have been left derelict when the Kashmiri pandits fled the Valley in Kashmir in the 90's.



and what about million of Kashmiris who left when India forcibaly took Kashmir, when we answered India ran to U.N. and than refuse to honor U.N.

What strange Democracy. only in the dreams, in reality a brutal country for Muslims, nexalites, christians and maoists.

Continuel of killings one day will come back to pay you, it is nature law as to what you do to others will one be done to you.

Before it is too late i sugest to India to see the facts for what they are and the do the right thing.


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## asq

raks27uk said:


> Shaivism has roots in Kashmir history going back thousands of years, Kashmir has many ancient temples & shrines some of which have been left derelict when the Kashmiri pandits fled the Valley in Kashmir in the 90's.



and what about million of Kashmiris who left when India forcibaly took Kashmir, when we answered India ran to U.N. and than refuse to honor U.N.

What strange Democracy. only in the dreams, in reality a brutal country for Muslims, nexalites, christians and maoists.

Continued killings one day will come back to pay you, it is nature's law as to what you do to others will one be done to you.

Before it is too late i suggest to India to see the facts for what they are and the do the right thing.


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## asq

Optimus said:


> Yes we should first ask any person who crosses the border whether he was trained properly or not or atleast if he had a crash course in handling his AK47 and then shoot him.
> 
> As for your remark of Pakistani Army supporting terrorists... Ohh Sorry Pro Freedom Insurgents... The world knows and see the current status of Pakistanis in the worlds view



Itis a disputed territory and Kashmiris have the right to fight for its freedom, Hafiz syed is Kashmiri, so next time if he sends his Kashmiri bretherns to fight you than donot come crying to us.

it is old news about you deductions as to how world views Pakistan, new bullitin for you.

Hamid Karzai has agreed to send his Army officer for training to Pakistan.

Cupish Dude.


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## asq

indianrabbit said:


> I will tell you clearly. I do not want to hide behind diplomacy.
> The maximum amount of fight around the world happens over land, girl and wealth.
> So land is important, no matter who considers what we are not giving Kashmir, plain and simple. If it is right or wrong I do not care. India was also invaded so many times in past which was not right either.



India was invaded so many times and i am sure u will start the history when Muslim came and not when Aryans that is you who came.

And to boot you made real Indians lower class citizens and till today you discriminate, abuse and kill them.

you neede people like Muslims to come to help those down troden poor people and they converted to Islam willingly and are good Muslims.

even today there are people like A.R. Rahman converting due to the value of Life he sees in Islam.


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## nForce

asq said:


> All your explanation defy the logic, the truth on the ground and the excuse for the killing are a mere try to continue killing with these lame excuses.




Care to explain how and why???Which arguments did u find to be lame and why????



> As i said before will say it again India is no Democray and it is using world siding with it due to totally wrong assumptions about Pakistan.




Yeah..right ...India is not a democracy and the country with 4 military coup in its 60 years of history is the ideal form of democracy....
Assumptions usualy do not last long and long and time is near when the truth shall come out glaring at you.



> About U.N and its resolution will be implemented against all those who refuse it, be u or Israel, time is on the side of oppressed and occupied.
> 
> Now i have read the resolution and it say all forces to be withdrawn and just for your info Liaqat ali Khan the first Prime minster of Pakistn did with draw foeces from srinangar airport to the point where LOC is waiting for India to respond in kind for implementation of the resolution further.



Wow..right again..and the place that u call Azad Kashmir exists on Mars....


> But India is what it is it defies all notices just like Israel, it defies all freedom fighter calling it this or that and does not want to see the ground realities.



Yeah...right again..Heres an idea..why dont u listen to those Baluch rebel have to say..Make an example out of it..We might follow...



> Well one day India will have to face it, a good country will face sooner and stop killing innocnt, on the other hand overconfidant country will continue to use it brutal force and its short imunity to kill. I believe that truth has its way of comming back and next time it might come back with a vangenace.




I dont know about India,but Pakistan is already facing a creation by its own agencies.

Is this what u call getting a dosage of ur own medicine????



> Watch out u over confidant, sitting in ivory tower: pidram sultan bood, dudes.



So,now u resort to name calling???That is widely recognized as way pathetic way to vent out frustration...


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## billi

asq said:


> and what about million of Kashmiris who left when India forcibaly took Kashmir, when we answered India ran to U.N. and than refuse to honor U.N.
> 
> What strange Democracy. only in the dreams, in reality a brutal country for *Muslims, nexalites, christians and maoists.*
> 
> Continuel of killings one day will come back to pay you, it is nature law as to what you do to others will one be done to you.
> 
> Before it is too late i sugest to India to see the facts for what they are and the do the right thing.



you could have just mentioned terrorists )


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## nForce

billi said:


> you could have just mentioned terrorists )



Muslims and Christians...terrorists???I wish u read the post again...


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## SpArK

*Kashmir Valley calm, but curfew in place​*

Jammu: A day after Prime Minister Manmohan Singh held a meeting on Kashmir to assess the situation, there's tenuous calm across the Kashmir Valley with thousands of CRPF men and police personnel deployed in all major towns across 10 districts. 

Curfew and restrictions are being strictly enforced. On Wednesday too, large parts of the state remained under curfew. The day passed off without any more casualties, though sporadic clashes were reported from some areas.

From north to south Kashmir, the valley is literally being managed by the police and security forces to deal with the crisis. The government hopes that curfew and security restrictions will help to douse the flames and calm tempers.

After the PM's held the high-level meeting on Wednesday, the Centre accused the Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) of stoking the fire in Kashmir.


Home Minister P Chidambaram, Defence Minister A K Antony and top officials were present at the crucial meet in New Delhi.

The Centre conceded the need for political steps and asked Omar Abdullah to visit some disturbed areas.

"We will support the state government in restoring the law and order situation. I hope the situation will come under control in the next few days," Chidambaram said.

Meanwhile, amid tension in the valley, the first batch of pilgrims arrived in south Kashmir on Tuesday for the Amarnath yatra. The yatris take the route through Anantnag, a town that saw violent clashes between protesters and security forces on Tuesday. 



Read more at: Kashmir Valley calm, but curfew in place


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## indian_warrior

India should follow Israel model. RAW should selectively kill top terrorist leadership. This should send spine in their nerves. 

And also India should send delegation immediately to learn new torture technique like Water boarding etc.

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## Areesh

*By Ramesh Balan
*


> *An inconvenient truth has bubbled over in Indian-held Kashmir, blowing the lid off a method that suggests madness in the Indian army&#8217;s fight against militancy in the troubled region. *The method has made murderers of soldiers, and there&#8217;s no saying how much of the fall of militancy to an all-time low in the troubled region in recent times is owed to terrified submission by the local population.
> *But now that the truth is out, pro-independence Kashmiris are back again rampaging through the streets.* As of Wednesday morning, 11 civilians have died in the worst flare-up of street violence in the Kashmir Valley in a year.Curfew has been clamped in the northern, central and southern parts of the valley, but as of late Tuesday, *pro-independence Kashmiris were still coming out in their hundreds, attacking troops with rocks and sticks in the face of gunfire, teargas bombardment and baton charge.
> The ongoing uprising has its roots in a shocking finding by the state police earlier this month that confirmed long-held suspicions by Kashmiris and human rights activists of brutality by sections of the nearly 500,000 Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) soldiers deployed in the region.
> The report revealed that the paramilitary soldiers had staged a gunbattle in the town of Anantnag, 55 km south of the capital city of Srinagar, in order to kill three civilians and claim that they were militants. The army was forced to suspend two officers and order a court martial inquiry following the expose..
> Police and human rights activists say several other recent incidents were similarly staged. These include the killing of three laborers this month who police investigators found were lured to their deaths by locals bribed by an army officer. In another suspicious incident, the army claimed that a 70-year-old beggar they had shot dead was a militant.
> And as recently as last week, police opened an investigation into the deaths of two porters who, according to the army, were hit by gunfire from Pakistani troops across the Line of Control. Doctors who carried out a postmortem, however, found that the two were shot at close range.*
> The killing of civilians is evidently because the CRPF&#8217;s method to notch up the headcount of militants is incentivized by a bonus for soldiers bringing in each kill.
> The method, while helping inspire bounty hunters among the troops, can be seriously flawed because, in a region wracked by militant violence for the past 30 years, it&#8217;s not impossible to pin the charge of militancy on anyone.
> *Kashmiri outrage over the stage-managed killing of civilians erupted on June 11 after a 11-year-old schoolboy was shot dead by CRPF soldiers deployed to quell a street protest staged by pro-indepence Kashmiris*. On Tuesday, the death toll rose to 11 after three more Kashmiris were killed by the troops.
> *Eyewitnesses said the soldiers barged into houses and shot people dead. &#8220;My nephews were killed in our compound. There was no provocation,&#8221; one report quoted a Kashmiri man as saying.*
> Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, who had challenged the Saudi Gazette a year ago to cite any recent instance of a civilian death in Kashmir, is now fast losing ground and goodwill as the new generation leader who has what it takes to turn Kashmir around.
> &#8220;The Omar Abdullah government has succeeded in turning the state into a land of licensed murder,&#8221; says Membooba Mufti, his fiercest political opponent and a former chief minister. She blames the troubles on Abdullah&#8217;s &#8220;poor administration&#8221; and inability to speak the local language and thereby vibe with the people.
> For the right-wingers in India&#8217;s arch-enemy Pakistan, the uprising could not have been better timed. Last week, the Indian and Pakistan governments resumed talks for paving the way toward lasting peace and succeeded in arriving at a two-track procees whereby discussions on developing commercial relations would be delinked from the political dialogue.
> India had broken off all talks with Pakistan following the Dec. 2008 Mumbai terrorist attacks which it blamed on extrremists operating freely from Pakistani soil. Extremists in Pakistan are against any dialogue with India, and the elected civilain government in Islamabad is taking a grave political risk by pursuing the peace process with New Delhi.
> *Political analysts in India argue that the current uprising is staged by Pakistan-implanted extermists operating in Kashmir and that it is not quite a groundswell of popular sentiment. They point to video clips of policemen being brutally assaulted by protestes to make their point. But that&#8217;s no argument against the madness in the army&#8217;s method and fire that has been lit.*
> The situation is escalating out of control. SMS text-messaging services have been blocked throughout the Kashmir valley to stop more residents from massing. In north Kashmir, cell-phone services have been completely suspended.
> Opposition politicians and protest groups plan to mount a general strike and organize an extended march this weekend.
> And worse, tens of thousands of Hindus started pouring into the Valley Wednesday for their annual pilgrimage to the Amarnath cave shrine in south Kashmir.
> A public demand by hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani that the Amarnath pilgrimage be curtailed to 15 days instead of the present two months has been countered by Leela Karan Sharma, former convener of Shri Amarnath Sangharsh Samiti (SASS).
> &#8220;If anybody tries to disrupt or create impediments in the (Amarnath) yatra, he will be given befitting reply,&#8221; Sharma has warned.
> The battle lines are drawn. New Delhi is rushing more troops to the Valley.
> *And the discredited army remains central figure in it all, having more than one battle to fight.
> *
> Feedback: balanramesh@gmail.com



License to kill in Kashmir


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## billi

Areesh said:


> *By Ramesh Balan
> *
> 
> 
> License to kill in Kashmir



007 .. its a fair thing to do if people want to secede from a country. we are not killing enough , look what china did to tibetans and pak did to bangladeshis


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## Areesh

billi said:


> 007 .. its a fair thing to do if people want to secede from a country. *we are not killing enough *, look what china did to tibetans and pak did to baluchis



Good. Kill more and more and more.

Keep it up biggest democracy in the world.


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## javaman

Areesh said:


> Good. Kill more and more and more.
> 
> Keep it up biggest democracy in the world.



u r also an democracy lol.


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## Areesh

> And as recently as last week, police opened an investigation into the deaths of two porters who, according to the army, were hit by gunfire from Pakistani troops across the Line of Control. Doctors who carried out a postmortem, however, found that the two were shot at close range.



Humm.


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## welcome

they r killing terrorist.........keep it up.
all indian is with you......


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## javaman

Srinagar: Stone pelting in Kashmir valley appears to be fast turning into a lucrative 'business' for some unemployed youths offering this 'service' for a price.
Several youths are also operating 'stone pelting' cartels funded by separatist organisations and some political parties, sources said today, adding business worth lakhs of rupees is usually generated through this activity.

Details in this regard came out during extensive interrogation of a stone pelter arrested by the Jammu and Kashmir police over a period of last three days.

Separatist groups especially those owing allegiance to Pakistan-terror outfit Hizbul Mujahideen and Lashker-e-Taiba are alleged to have formed several groups comprising a minimum of dozen people, sources in the interrogation team said.

These groups are paid a hefty amount ranging between Rs5 to Rs8 lakh, they said, adding a part of this money is handed over to another group known as "initiators" who pick up stones and start pelting on police and para-military forces -- sometimes on trivial issues.

The groups, which are alleged to have been receiving funds from a political party as well, have stationed their people invarious localities and other districts of the Valley, the sources said. This could be the reason for stone pelting incidents occuring in a synchronised manner throughout the valley during agitations and protests, they said.

The sources said while the exact amount of money being pumped into the stone-pelting business was yet to be estimated, it could be running into lakhs of rupees.

Adding to the woes of policemen were protestors making use of stones and buildingmaterial kept by government agencies on roads for constructionactivities, the sources said.

The Government should ensure completion of work within a time frame as otherwise these materials would come handy for the stone pelters, they said.

Stone pelting becomes lucrative business in Kashmir valley - dnaindia.com


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## billi

Areesh said:


> Humm.



which doctors? or witch doctors LOL


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## Areesh

billi said:


> which doctors? or witch doctors LOL



Yeah those doctors were also ISI agent. I know. Don't tell me.


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## Raghu

> Kashmir on the boil again



Don't worry,it'll calm down in few days.

Since we have killed most gun trotting terrorists fighting jihad on behalf of Pakistan ,though we don't put pictures like other armies, we did clobbered them pretty nice and good for last many years , and made sure they achieve martyrdom(72 n all)...

we shouldn't loose patience with few stone pelters with feelings for Azadi , also seek & tired of watching indian security men at every nook and corner of streets as their young hands will get tired soon .And also these kashmiris muslims descendant of Hindu Brahmins are not exactly martial(i mean downright crazy) people .

I'm happy thats the GOI ,Kashmir govt and security forces are taking a soft approach and not resorting to fire power e,g blowing a building to kill couple of Pakistani militants...even if deliberately provoked and thats the way to go.Soon things will get back to normal .


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## vsdoc

When the white settlers in North America finally broke the back of the warring native american tribes, each tribe was segregated and localised to reservations. 

The reservations were given a level of autonomy under the leadership of the now defeated tribal leaders, within the larger umbrella of the then infant american union.

Today, thanks to Pakistan sponsored terrorism in the valley, and Pakistan's designs on Kashmir for the past 60+ years, the Kashmiri people have sadly been living in a similar situation. 

That is really not fair to the majority of Kashmiris who are as proud Indians as any of us, and are stifled between a rock and a hard place, as the Indian Army and Pakistan sponsored and trained and armed and indoctrinated terrorists fight it out, making their home a battlefield.

What we simply need to do is localise this reservation further, compress it tighter, and move it away from Kashmir geographically. 

Pass an ordinance that gives the army the right to pick up any person that is involved in anti-India activities, and move him within the confines of this reservation.

This reservation should be located as far away from Kashmir as possible, in an environment and ambient climate as different as possible to that of Kashmir.

Tightly fenced and segregated from the surrounding civilian population. Completely self sufficient, and autonomous in leadership and governance.

Azadi.

There is a lot of prime real estate available in Madhya Pradesh for instance for just such a large relocation package.

Cheers, Doc


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## Raghu

^^^doc, u want to tadipaar(is the right word?) Ali Shah Geelani Geelani and hurriyat Co to some Kaalapani??

It would be well deserved,but I don't think these pricks are that dangerous . And the hot climate would drive them mad which is inhumane.


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## vsdoc

No tadipaar would be sending them to the Andamans.

But I am concerned about the flora and fauna of the delicate ecosystem there.

Cheers, Doc


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

*Kashmiris&#8217; sacrifices will not be allowed to go waste: Waza*

Srinagar, July 01 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, leader of All Parties Hurriyet Conference and Acting Chairman of Jammu Kashmir Peoples League (JKPL), Mukhtar Ahmad Waza has said that the unique sacrifices offered by the Kashmiri people will not be allowed to go waste.

Mukhtar Ahmad Waza in a statement issued in Srinagar said that, on one hand, the Indian troops were killing innocent Kashmiris and, on the other, the people of Jammu Kashmir had been confined to their houses through undeclared curfew.

He said that the people of Jammu and Kashmir had rendered matchless sacrifices for Kashmir liberation and they would continue their struggle for securing right to self-determination till its complete success.

The APHC leader appealed the world community and international human rights organisations to put pressure on India to resolve the Kashmir dispute in accordance with Kashmiris&#8217; aspirations so that permanent peace could be established in the region.

He also paid glowing tributes to innocent youths martyred by Indian troops at Islamabad town and expresses solidarity with the bereaved families. 

http://www.kmsnews.org/news/kashmiris%E2%80%99-sacrifices-will-not-be-allowed-go-waste-waza-0


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## ejaz007

*33 Kashmiris martyred in IHK in June: report *
Updated at: 1115 PST, Thursday, July 01, 2010

SRINAGAR: The Indian troops have martyred in Indian Held Kashmir (IHK) at least 33 innocent Kashmiri people including four children by taking resort to their ongoing interstate terror activities during the month of June, a report said.

According to calculations sent to media from Research Center of Kashmir Media Service, those brutal killings have rendered two women widowed and four children orphans.

Meanwhile, a total of 572 Kashmiris were injured during peaceful protests and mass rallies all over Indian Held Kashmir by Indian troops by taking resort to unprovocative firing, tear gas shelling and carrying out violence in torture cells.

Moreover, as many as 228 people were arrested, most among them were Hurriat leaders. Indian troops raped 8 women during the period, besides pounding 16 residential houses with mortar shells.

Meanwhile, the curfew is clamped over Srinagar, Islamabad, Sopur, Baramula and others in order to undermine protests against illegal occupation. 

33 Kashmiris martyred in IHK in June: report

---------- Post added at 01:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 PM ----------

This is how democracy works in Indian Occupied Kashmir.


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## ejaz007

raks27uk said:


> Dont lecture india on human rights when thousands of christians, hindus, sikhs and shia/ahemdhi muslims have been killed in pakistan.



Do you have any data on this claim or is it just patriotic post?


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## ejaz007

Nice aim:






---------- Post added at 01:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 PM ----------

At the wrong place at wrong time:


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## Dash

To Ezaz 007 -



> Do you have any data on this claim or is it just patriotic post?



hmmm....

Looks like you are not aware of some news happened in your country.
I will give you the data..

Here you go...if you have asked for this else I had no interest...

1. Pregrant woman dragged


> http://www.persecution.org/suffering/ICCnews/newsdetail.php?newscode=10680&title=pregnant-christian-dragged-naked-through-pakistani-police-station



2. Police register cases against Gojra Christians.


> Pakistan Christian Post



And all these links are not from Indian sources....So, think.

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## Areesh

Ok Indians don't go cheap. Even you have to. We can also post disgusting and disturbing news from your country also. But it will be off topic. 

So stick with the topic and talk about IOK and your illegitimate occupation.

Thanks.


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## Dash

Areesh said:


> Ok Indians don't go cheap. Even you have to. We can also post disgusting and disturbing news from your country also. But it will be off topic.
> 
> So stick with the topic and talk about IOK and your illegitimate occupation.
> 
> Thanks.


Who went off topic???...

people are asking for source of claim, we are just posting it.


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## Areesh

Dash said:


> Who went off topic???...
> 
> people are asking for source of claim, we are just posting it.



Thread is about Kashmir... Do what you were doing yesterday. Defend and discuss your occupation of IOK.


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## Areesh

Protest shutdown brings Kashmir valley to standstill




> *A protest shutdown has paralysed normal life for a fourth successive day in Indian-administered Kashmir.
> 
> The strike has been called in protest at the recent killing of unarmed civilians by police and paramilitary troops.*
> 
> Five towns - Sopore, Anantnag, Mattan, Kulgam and Koimoh - and some areas of Srinagar have been placed under curfew.
> 
> At least 11 civilians died in clashes with security forces in Indian-administered Kashmir in June.
> 
> Many of the deaths have been blamed on the paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF).
> 
> On Wednesday Chief Minister Omar Abdullah defended the security forces, saying they could not be expected constantly to show restraint when they were so often pelted with stones.
> 
> *'Quit Kashmir'
> *
> Shops, schools and colleges in the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley are shut on the fourth day of the curfew, the BBC's Altaf Hussain in Srinagar reports.
> 
> Work in government offices has also been affected.
> 
> In Srinagar's old city all roads leading to the Pathar Masjid (Stone Mosque) have been sealed after separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani called upon women to march there.
> 
> Mr Geelani launched a "Quit Kashmir campaign" last Friday. Contingents of women police personnel have been deployed to prevent the march.
> 
> The killings of civilian protesters, most of them teenagers, have angered many in the valley.
> 
> *One newspaper headline described 2010 as the "year of teenage killings" in Kashmir.
> *
> *Even the pro-India People's Democratic Party (PDP) has accused the government of declaring war on its own people, our correspondent reports.
> *
> Hundreds of thousands of troops are based in Kashmir to fight a two-decade insurgency against Indian rule.



Protest shutdown brings Kashmir valley to standstill


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## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> Ok Indians don't go cheap. Even you have to. We can also post disgusting and disturbing news from your country also. But it will be off topic.
> 
> So stick with the topic and talk about IOK and your illegitimate occupation.
> 
> Thanks.



There is nothing called IOK but i am read about P O K and your illegal occupation

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## M8R

Alright then come liberate Pakistani Kashmiris lol.


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## Ammyy

First confirm liberate to whom Pakistani or Indian(kashmiri) ???


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## PlanetWarrior

All Kashmiris seeking to join with Pakistan in Jammu and Kashmir by violent means should be accommodated by the Indian government. They should be deported to Pakistan. Those Kashmiris seeking to engage in peaceful talks on any issue should be encouraged to do so. In the meantime, perhaps more tax incentives should be given to corporates to invest in the region together with an assurance by the government that if Kashmir is ever given independence or any parts of Kashmir is ceded to Pakistan then the corporates will be financially indemnified by the government. The level of industry in the area is way too low and only aggravates the people further. The issue is simply that Kashmiri graduates and job seekers have very limited opportunities in their hometowns. Kashmiri mainstream way of life is still agriculture and farming. Poverty and financial restraints will result in resentment which will be directed towards the establishment. On the one hand the Indian government insists that Kashmir is a part of India and is no different from any other state of India. On the other hand it has laws which restricts the rest of India from acquiring property in Kashmir and does sweet nothing in promoting Kashmir as a commercial investment area despite maintaining such a huge military presence in the region. This sends out a conflicting signal to its people that government regards Kashmir as a temporary state of India which will inevitably either become an independent state or be ceded to Pakistan? No wonder the Kashmiris rise up from time to time demanding that they be given some form of finality in their future.

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## asq

indianrabbit said:


> I will tell you clearly. I do not want to hide behind diplomacy.
> The maximum amount of fight around the world happens over land, girl and wealth.
> So land is important, no matter who considers what we are not giving Kashmir, plain and simple. If it is right or wrong I do not care. India was also invaded so many times in past which was not right either.




So as per your logic Iraq was attacked for land or girls or wealth, no man U.S. clearly said they wanted Sadam out.

How naive that you live in the world that existed 1000 years ago. what you believe is no more precticed becuase the fact is that many have WMD,s and U.N. will not allow this to go on.

Cupish. Dude.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

i believe they initially wanted weapons of mass destruction, and to avenge Iraq's so-called links with 9/11


both of which were proven incorrect and non-existent


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## faisaljaffery

syedtalha said:


> *Me too.. i'm kashmiri from IOK, Srinagar.
> As far as being " Kashmiri" is concerned, i believe Kashmiri is only those who live within Kashmir valley(which is called kashmir division administratively in IOK). Kashmir valley is entirely on the indian side of the border, and unfortunately whatever 'kashmir ' is in pakistan is not kashmir at all. You can see kashmir valley as a plain stretch of land in google earth, surrounded by mountains on all sides. Srinagar city is in the center of this valley, and it peripherals consist the outlying districts, baramullah, anantnag(islamabad), ganderbal, Kupwarah, pulwamah, Budgam. THe rest of the districts are somehow also kashmir, but ethnic kashmiris dont live there. Jammu and Kashmir as a country does not exist according to me, since we have nothing in common with the rest of the districts. So my political opinions regarding the kashmir issue, is acession to pakistan of Kashmir valley only, while india should be let to keep the rest of the erstwhile state. It serves pakistans interests well, since pakistan's main concern is water, which is almost entirely alleviated by Kashmir valley being part of pakistan. India also does not want a hostile polulation, which is mainly based in kashmir valley, there should be a simple peaceful barter of territory. *



I dont agree with your statement since i am also from kashmir and living in the Azad Kashmir. There are lots of areas in Azad Kashmir where people are kashmiri speaking such as Neelam Valley, Muzaffarabaad and Bagh. In all these distiricts there are a lot of kashmiri speaking people living and saying that kashmiri speaking people are only living in the indian occupied kashmir will b wrong. As far as barter trade of territory is concerned i totally disagree with your stance, as these areas which are already with Pakistan are a stretegic line of defence for Pakistan, because of high altittute moutain ranges which protect Pakistan from any mililitary aggression from Indian side. Kashmir is a big piecee of land and many languages are spoken here includding Kashmiri, Pahari, Hindko, Gojri etc so it has a diverse culture, however most of the population consist of Muslims.


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## faisaljaffery

k_n said:


> Mirpuris and Punchhis are what they are i.e Mirpuri and Punchhi NOT KASHMIRI .
> The language , food , dress all are different , DIFFERENT .
> So dont claim what is not your heritage . Leave it for the Kashmris of the valley and Doda Kishtwar .
> The Kashmiri speaking migrants who have migrated to Pak during partition and later since the insurgency ( only a trickle ) can claim to be Kashmiri not the Mirpuris and Punchhis . Same can be said of the Kashmiri descendants of families who moved to Punjab during British Raj although they dont retain the language anymore and speak Punjabi .
> The people in Gilgit-Baltistan have different languages though they are more ethnically and linguistically closer to Kashmiris than Mirpuris and Punchhis !
> Only Neelum Valley exactly oppposite Kupwara can be said to have people of Kashmiri extraction
> 
> Yes KASHMIRIS have 'nothing' in common with different 'Indian' ethnicities just like there is nothing common between a Punjabi or Sindhi or Pashtun or Baloch with The Kashmiri !
> Language , Cuisine , Dress , Customs NOTHING . Though a late Sindhi ex-foreign minister had claimed at UN that Kashmir is more a PART OF PAK than it can ever be a part of INDIA .
> 
> Besides , Kashmiris have harboured seperatist tendencies since the partition is well known to you and us . Irrespective of what you claim , the moment Kashmiris step out of the valley in search of better oppurtunities , education , work they get to see and mix with 'Indians' . Plenty of them in Pune , Mumbai , Hyderabad and Delhi being treated as equal as ANY INDIAN WILL TREAT A FELLOW INDIAN .
> The 'Indian' muslims have never had a soft corner for the Kashmiri seperatist tendencies neither they have any special sense of affinity towards the Kashmiri community so go and sell your peanuts elsewhere or come to Pune during september once the universities there begin with their Fall Semester and count the Kashmiri students living in absolute freedom with a dream of better future in India .



Getting better education in the India is a right of Kashmiris of your side, but that doesnt mean there are good career opportunites for them. Since India is dominated by the Hindus and there are fewer opportunities for muslims and specially for kashmiris. And no true kashmiri will be happy living with india due to a simple reason that their brothers and sisters are being killed by your forces. They will never like to stay with india any more rather in their processions they always carry Pakistan's flag despite of strict reaction by coward forces of India. You are killing innocent youth of Kashmir, but the day is coming when people of kashmir will get their right of self determination and that day they will decide to live with their home land which is Pakistan.


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## anurag_singh

faisaljaffery said:


> Getting better education in the India is a right of Kashmiris of your side, but that doesnt mean there are good career opportunites for them. Since India is dominated by the Hindus and there are fewer opportunities for muslims and specially for kashmiris. And no true kashmiri will be happy living with india due to a simple reason that their brothers and sisters are being killed by your forces. They will never like to stay with india any more rather in their processions they always carry Pakistan's flag despite of strict reaction by coward forces of India. You are killing innocent youth of Kashmir, but the day is coming when people of kashmir will get their right of self determination and that day they will decide to live with their home land which is Pakistan.



The day which you are waiting for, will never come.

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## Mirza Jatt

faisaljaffery said:


> Getting better education in the India is a right of Kashmiris of your side, but that doesnt mean there are good career opportunites for them.



yes, they have the right and they are getting it...atleast more than your side...and about carrer opportunity..sorry..you know nothing...they have more brighter future than in your side..cause we have work for them..job opportunities..and we know where you stand..

a very small example....
a kashmiri in Indian administration...

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_srinagar-doc-becomes-first-kashmiri-to-top-ias_1380054



> Since India is dominated by the Hindus and there are fewer opportunities for muslims and specially for kashmiris.



are you crazy ?? do you even know at what positions muslims are in India ?? lol..they have been at postion,which any muslim in the world would envy..sorry no examples here...serach it..or see some bollywood movies or the list of Indian ministers or even presidents..



> And no true kashmiri will be happy living with india due to a simple reason that their brothers and sisters are being killed by your forces. They will never like to stay with india any more rather in their processions they always carry Pakistan's flag despite of strict reaction by coward forces of India. You are killing innocent youth of Kashmir, but the day is coming when people of kashmir will get their right of self determination and that day *they will decide to live with their home land which is Pakistan*.



fortunately..you are wrong my friend....they are staying with us and they are safe with us...the procession that you aretalking about,should be 1000 times bigger to say that every kashmiri wants India to go...BTW..just look at your last sentence..that says it all..see ya.


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## Zillay_Khan

syedtalha said:


> *Me too.. i'm kashmiri from IOK, Srinagar.
> As far as being " Kashmiri" is concerned, i believe Kashmiri is only those who live within Kashmir valley(which is called kashmir division administratively in IOK). Kashmir valley is entirely on the indian side of the border, and unfortunately whatever 'kashmir ' is in pakistan is not kashmir at all. You can see kashmir valley as a plain stretch of land in google earth, surrounded by mountains on all sides. Srinagar city is in the center of this valley, and it peripherals consist the outlying districts, baramullah, anantnag(islamabad), ganderbal, Kupwarah, pulwamah, Budgam. THe rest of the districts are somehow also kashmir, but ethnic kashmiris dont live there. Jammu and Kashmir as a country does not exist according to me, since we have nothing in common with the rest of the districts. So my political opinions regarding the kashmir issue, is acession to pakistan of Kashmir valley only, while india should be let to keep the rest of the erstwhile state. It serves pakistans interests well, since pakistan's main concern is water, which is almost entirely alleviated by Kashmir valley being part of pakistan. India also does not want a hostile polulation, which is mainly based in kashmir valley, there should be a simple peaceful barter of territory. *



First Of all let me state Im also from kashmir my ancestors also settled there over a centuary ago, and liek you talha if you are a syed you ureself coudl not have been a permenent resdient of kashmir generation to genration.

Who the hell are you to say what is kashmiri and what is not and which region is and which is not, azad kashmir is kashmir only difference is it was liberated through struggle, or it would have also tasted the horrible yoke and animal behaviour of piss pot drinking indians, raping innocent women dress as freedom fighters to harm the true cause of the freedom fighters and try and mass immigrate hindus to the area just as jews did in palestine, because the vast majority population of kashmir is muslim. 

In azad kashmere many people speak kashmiri we have large rathore and bhutt communities that migrated from ocupied kashmere and many where always in that region ample more immigrated from ocupied kashmere , due to persecuation who now love in total peace. I have relatives that side and gave up alot of land to move to azad kashmere just so that they could live in peace. You see here they dont need to pass a army check post every few hundred yards they live in complete peace, nor the fear of drunken hindus bursting into your house and looking like vultures at you and the honour of your family. WE have so much in common with pakistanies, Infact I am *pakistani* kashmere is like a district for me, Pakistan and kashmere should be togethere, we share bloodlines culture, faith, history , all sorts of ties with kashmere more then india which is only a place for hindus and minorities are just bucthered. Hence the name HINDUSTAN.

In azad kashmere you will hardly notice or think you are sperate to pakistan , but in indian ocupied kashmere its all like living in a war zone, poor people arnt even allowed free elections. And why should kashmris seperate from pakistan, we are all one ummah, one nation one faith and have cultural simmilarities , wherease in india they just loot and kill innocent people in kashmere region and make there bogus propaganda bollywood movies, and such a partition is of no use whatsoever.

I love Pakistan, pak sar zameen it is the achievment of the blood of shuhadah, the karamat of awliya, the duas of mothers , the scarifices of sons lying under tanks. The hope of millions and the divine blessing bestowed upon us by God, LOve this Pakistan, Watan ki mitti gawah rehnah


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## Zillay_Khan

anurag_singh said:


> The day which you are waiting for, will never come.



The day was yesterday in kargil when we were in srinagar, and it will be tommorrow aswell Lord willing


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## anurag_singh

Zillay_Khan said:


> The day was yesterday in kargil when we were in srinagar, and it will be tommorrow aswell Lord willing



Your "tommorrow" is a dream buddy. It is not a reality. Get over it.


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## Zillay_Khan

anurag_singh said:


> Your "tommorrow" is a dream buddy. It is not a reality. Get over it.



as i showed buddy its already happened and will again


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

faisaljaffery said:


> I dont agree with your statement since i am also from kashmir and living in the Azad Kashmir. There are lots of areas in Azad Kashmir where people are kashmiri speaking such as Neelam Valley, Muzaffarabaad and Bagh. In all these distiricts there are a lot of kashmiri speaking people living and saying that kashmiri speaking people are only living in the indian occupied kashmir will b wrong. As far as barter trade of territory is concerned i totally disagree with your stance, as these areas which are already with Pakistan are a stretegic line of defence for Pakistan, because of high altittute moutain ranges which protect Pakistan from any mililitary aggression from Indian side. Kashmir is a big piecee of land and many languages are spoken here includding Kashmiri, Pahari, Hindko, Gojri etc so it has a diverse culture, however most of the population consist of Muslims.



Which part of Azad are you from? I'm from Mirpur by the way

Also found this video & some pics the other day. I'll post pics later


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Bang Galore said:


> Spot on ! It makes my blood boil to see these guys who are doing our dirty work run up against stone throwing mobs without the basic of protective gear. Yesterday there was a video of a mob beating a policeman brutally. The guy didn't have a single piece of protective gear on except for his helmet. We regularly see images of the SPG showing off their toys, guess it helps if you are providing show & pomp for the PM & other assorted VIP's but these poor guys get sent to handle riots with just a stick. How much can it take to issue these guys with protective equipment & non lethal weapons? Can't we as a country of 1.2 billion afford some basic protection to a few thousand riot police? Chances are that a unprotected policeman may feel danger to his person enough to use deadly force where one who was better protected may have waited out the protesters.



It's funny how much you guys moan over one policeman, when hundreds, if not thousands of Kashmiris have got the **** beaten out of them, yes I saw the video aswell, so do not say I don't know what I'm talking about. I like it how you turn a blind eye to the suffering of Kashmiris but not one of your own. 

PROTIP: Do not deny that Indian Forces have not commited brutality in Kashmir.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

vsdoc said:


> I simply do not understand the sense of sending in these thullas covered in what looks like a padded rajai, a WWII helmet with a steel grill visor, and a lathio in hand man. Against guys chucking rocks at them.
> 
> There has to be a middle ground between lathis and throwing rocks back (today's newspaper had a photo of some thulls gathered around a wheelbarrow collecting brick pieces to chuck back!) and the use of live ammunition as a last ditch measure.
> 
> The security forces need much better body armour. Nothing fancy, but why not basic sports quality hard guards at least? Like elbow and forearm, knee and shin, hip and thigh, back, as well as motocross style upper body armor with shoulder and chest protector integrated as well? It would not cost more than 5000 bucks at most. Can't we spend that much on each policeman?
> 
> Secondly, the world over riot police have guns that fire non-lethal rubber bullets. Why not fire those at the stone pelters? Yes you could lose an eye or a testicle, but I find it hard to imagine rallies with green flags in Sopore or Anantnag over a young man minus one testicle. And it would give other young men something to think about before they accept their daily wages for stoning on hire.
> 
> Thirdly, as way back as the early 90s the Indian Army MP has had these electrical prods and tasers. Crude but very effective. And once hit, you develop this sudden overpowering lifelong urge not to experience it again! After all, there's something spectaculary un-heroic and un-inspiring about a "pro-freedom insurgent" going into grotesque tonic-clonic paroxysms on the ground as his bladder and anal sphincters lose all tone and violently expel their contents involuntarily.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers, Doc



The Indian Army already has this stuff and the whole world know's how they use it against innocent Kashmiris. It's also nice how your supporting the abuse of human rights.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

This report is BS all over. It's funny how you guys kill a kid then blame the protests on some seperatist organizations. Ever thought how stone throwing could be worth lakh's?

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## anurag_singh

Azad Kashmir said:


> This report is BS all over. It's funny how you guys kill a kid then blame the protests on some seperatist organizations. Ever thought how stone throwing could be worth lakh's?



Why can't It be worth lacs. After all ISI can provide money for its evil desire.


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## owcc

Its time loc is accepted as actual border.The only other option on the table is an offensive approach harming both nations


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## gubbi

asq said:


> As i said before will say it again India is no Democray and it is using world siding with it due to totally wrong assumptions about Pakistan.
> 
> Assumptions usualy do not last long and long and time is near when the truth shall come out glaring at you.



And what might those assumptions be, oh wise one? Please enlighten us to the true facts. Ground realities do prove otherwise.



> *About U.N and its resolution will be implemented against all those who refuse it, be u or Israel, time is on the side of oppressed and occupied.*
> 
> Now *i have read the resolution and it say all forces to be withdrawn *and just for your info *Liaqat ali Khan the first Prime minster of Pakistn did with draw foeces from srinangar airport to the point where LOC *is waiting for India to respond in kind for implementation of the resolution further.



You just contradicted yourself. You have neither read nor are able to comprehend the language of UN resolution no: 47. Period.

About Liaqat Ali Khan withdrawing forces, dude, your forces were *KICKED OUT of Srinagar*!! They couldnt even make it to the airport. And you talk of a withdrawl? Seriously? Lol. 

This statement of yours reminds me of outrageous claims by "*Baghdad Bob*"
*Quotes by Baghdad Bob*: of which yours sounds similar to this one!!


> "They're not even [within] 100 miles [of Baghdad]. They are not in any place. They hold no place in Iraq. This is an illusion ... they are trying to sell to the others an illusion."



Rest of your post can definitely be qualified as:


----------



## asq

gubbi said:


> And what might those assumptions be, oh wise one? Please enlighten us to the true facts. Ground realities do prove otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> You just contradicted yourself. You have neither read nor are able to comprehend the language of UN resolution no: 47. Period.
> 
> About Liaqat Ali Khan withdrawing forces, dude, your forces were *KICKED OUT of Srinagar*!! They couldnt even make it to the airport. And you talk of a withdrawl? Seriously? Lol.
> 
> This statement of yours reminds me of outrageous claims by "*Baghdad Bob*"
> *Quotes by Baghdad Bob*: of which yours sounds similar to this one!!
> 
> 
> Rest of your post can definitely be qualified as:



I guess u like to believe in hero like Dr. Spock

Dude it is only in tv series he exists, he is not a real charactor, man o man u as a sikh realy need to learn about the truthfullness and of opressions, are/were to defend the opressed and the downtroden.

Now u talk about Srinagar, man o man u are so with Indian/hindu version of events that u wont even bother to think.

I am surprised that out of all the people u continue to tow the line fed to u by Hindus, who never say anything straight forward and alwys twist matters to suit them, this forum is the proof of it.

just like beghdad Bob u believe what ever is fed to you by India as he did what ever was fed to him by Sadam.

So it is no use talking to you u r towing Indian line through and through.


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## asq

anurag_singh said:


> Why can't It be worth lacs. After all ISI can provide money for its evil desire.



Here we go gain, blame game begins, only on Pakdef. i would be banned to say thing of that kind on Rak-shak.


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## Hulk

asq said:


> I guess u like to believe in hero like Dr. Spock
> 
> Dude it is only in tv series he exists, he is not a real charactor, man o man u as a sikh realy need to learn about the truthfullness and of opressions, are/were to defend the opressed and the downtroden.
> 
> Now u talk about Srinagar, man o man u are so with Indian/hindu version of events that u wont even bother to think.
> 
> I am surprised that out of all the people u continue to tow the line fed to u by Hindus, who never say anything straight forward and alwys twist matters to suit them, this forum is the proof of it.
> 
> just like beghdad Bob u believe what ever is fed to you by India.ashe did what ever was fed to nim by Sadam.
> 
> So it is no use talking to you u r towing Indian line through and through.



Same thing can be said about you.


----------



## asq

indianrabbit said:


> Same thing can be said about you.




Dude, if u have nothing to add to this discssion, only using my words to refute me, than u should not be on this frum.


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## Hulk

asq said:


> Dude, if u have nothing to add to this discssion, only using my words to refute me, than u should not be on this frum.



I added you did not understood. By the way as long as I am following forum rules I should be fine.


----------



## Kashmiri Nationalist

anurag_singh said:


> Why can't It be worth lacs. After all ISI can provide money for its evil desire.



You should look at the finiancial situation of Pakistan, the budget's then make such claims. Frankly, I do not think the ISI would have that kind of money to pay such wages to stone throwers nor would they pay such a big amount considering Kashmir's wages (the point in my previous post you missed out completely). 


All I'm hearing is ISIIndia's problemsISI


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## Evil Flare

PlanetWarrior said:


> All Kashmiris seeking to join with Pakistan in Jammu and Kashmir by violent means should be accommodated by the Indian government. They should be deported to Pakistan.




So you want to expel the Kashmiris from their very own land ?


----------



## asq

indianrabbit said:


> I added you did not understood. By the way as long as I am following forum rules I should be fine.




U R clueless.


----------



## karan.1970

Aamir Zia said:


> So you want to expel the Kashmiris from their very own land ?



not all of them. only thr traitors who want to join Pakistan.

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## Hulk

100&#37; Karan.
The problem in Kashmir is because people have divergent view.
1) Some wants Independent Kashmir and these kind IMO are biggest fools, they do not know that it is not possible, Kashmir was independent at 1947 and was attacked by Pakistan. So independent Kashmir is not possible
2) Some who are religious bigots and cannot tolerate or accept the fact that there are people of other religion who are in top post. These IMO are most 3rd class people who cannot think beyond religion. These people were the first ones to revolt.
3) Independent and does not have any strong opinion and can adjust either way.
4) Ladhak and Jammu region firmly with India.

So I think type 2 should understand that it will be better for them if they move to Pakistan.

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## Bang Galore

asq said:


> Now u talk about Srinagar, man *o man u are so with Indian/hindu version of events *that u wont even bother to think.
> 
> *I am surprised that out of all the people u continue to tow the line fed to u by Hindus, who never say anything straight forward and alwys twist matters to suit them, this forum is the proof of it.*
> 
> So it is no use talking to you u r towing Indian line through and through.



With such einsteinian thoughts, are you surprised that no one takes you seriously, much less care for your enlightened opinions.

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## Awesome

DRDO said:


> There is nothing called IOK but i am read about P O K and your illegal occupation


We mandate using official terms here. 

J&K and AJK, respectively.


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## fawwaxs

*
33 Kashmiris martyred in IHK in June*: report SRINAGAR: The Indian troops have martyred in Indian Held Kashmir (IHK) at least 33 innocent Kashmiri people including four children by taking resort to their ongoing interstate terror activities during the month of June, a report said.

According to calculations sent to media from Research Center of Kashmir Media Service, those brutal killings have rendered two women widowed and four children orphans.

Meanwhile, a total of 572 Kashmiris were injured during peaceful protests and mass rallies all over Indian Held Kashmir by Indian troops by taking resort to unprovocative firing, tear gas shelling and carrying out violence in torture cells.

Moreover, as many as 228 people were arrested, most among them were Hurriat leaders. Indian troops raped 8 women during the period, besides pounding 16 residential houses with mortar shells.

Meanwhile, the curfew is clamped over Srinagar, Islamabad, Sopur, Baramula and others in order to undermine protests against illegal occupation.


----------



## PlanetWarrior

Aamir Zia said:


> So you want to expel the Kashmiris from their very own land ?



Nope. Kashmiris are entitled to live in their land. My point is that those who take up arms to resolve their issues just cause futher misery to the people who live in Kashmir. Sometimes innocent Kashmiris become the target of military retaliation. Those who engage in talks and protest peacefully for whatever their cause is serve a better purpose. To those who violently demand cessation of Kashmir to Pakistan, I suggest send them to Pakistan so they may get what they wish. To those who peacefully make demands, I suggest give them a fair hearing and address their concerns. I guess that you would wish the same of any protest group in your nation as well ?


----------



## RollingStones

PlanetWarrior said:


> Nope. Kashmiris are entitled to live in their land. My point is that those who take up arms to resolve their issues just cause futher misery to the people who live in Kashmir. Sometimes innocent Kashmiris become the target of military retaliation. Those who engage in talks and protest peacefully for whatever their cause is serve a better purpose. To those who violently demand cessation of Kashmir to Pakistan, I suggest send them to Pakistan so they may get what they wish. To those who peacefully make demands, I suggest give them a fair hearing and address their concerns. I guess that you would wish the same of any protest group in your nation as well ?



There is a cost to everything. Everyone lives on one plant. If one country pollutes excessively, that country will be asked to shut off pollution before it kills the planet. Kashmir at the end of the day is another piece of land on this plant. If asking Kashmiris to choose between settlement in Pakistan or India helps solve the problem, then both governments should seriously consider it. An allowance fund can be setup to oversee which side of India and Pakistan these Kashmiris want to live, much like what happened in the Punjab, I guess. I am truly for reduction of all sorts of wars and hatred around the world. Control for resources has taken its deadly toll on ordinary people around the world - just look at African nations. It is the people of Neelum and Kashmir valleys that have suffered the most. You cannot have a dispute for 50 odd years. Either solve it within 5 or 10 years or else forget about it. If it is running this long, someone else and not the parties to the dispute are benefiting from this.

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## billi

Make LOC the internationl border and live in peace. 55&#37; of kasmir will be in Pak hands ( counting the Aksai chin area they gave to china) and 45% in india. So why cry now, you go the bigger and better part of kashmir , why fight now.


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## billi

Jana said:


> Please open a separate thread to discuss that. BUT wait that is our Internal matter and not some disputed one under UN resolution.
> 
> 
> You bhartis never tired of making up things



learnt it from you guys on this forum

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## billi

javaman said:


> i think that yatrees take money frm u ,and go there.i have a lot of things 2 say,but seniors are seniors and religion must be respected.



yeah we should stop copying the saudis or italians


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## falconfx

RollingStones said:


> There is a cost to everything. Everyone lives on one plant. If one country pollutes excessively, that country will be asked to shut off pollution before it kills the planet. Kashmir at the end of the day is another piece of land on this plant. If asking Kashmiris to choose between settlement in Pakistan or India helps solve the problem, then both governments should seriously consider it. An allowance fund can be setup to oversee which side of India and Pakistan these Kashmiris want to live, much like what happened in the Punjab, I guess. I am truly for reduction of all sorts of wars and hatred around the world. Control for resources has taken its deadly toll on ordinary people around the world - just look at African nations. It is the people of Neelum and Kashmir valleys that have suffered the most. You cannot have a dispute for 50 odd years. Either solve it within 5 or 10 years or else forget about it. If it is running this long, someone else and not the parties to the dispute are benefiting from this.



Everybody knows about the cost. The kashmir dispute cannot be resolved until all parties compromise on the status-quo. Unfortunately, that is not accepted by some.


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## billi

Jana said:


> The yatra is done in this summer season and that so-called ICe linga melts away so they have to fool the people by forming a fake one.
> 
> Please do have a reality check, NO one is insulting your religion. They even had installed air conditioning system to prevent the melting so its not DIVINE in anyway



I am agnostic . I dont deny or accept the existance of god. But religion is crap. Only has led to war. There is no divinity in any place of worship. See the way Rome is minting money by making Vatican the centre and Saudi is minting money by making mecca holy. In india, people waste so much money by giong to temples and pilgrimage. people who go here are fooled into parting with money and only enriching the authorities. Ban religion world will be happy.. My 2 cents.


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## billi

Jana said:


> Take that discussion to some other thread and i will reply you here it doesnt fit.
> 
> Amarnath cave is in Held Kashmir and the yatra there is pure drama that issue is not about religious believes but the issue is Indian cheating and spread of lies by forming fake ice linga and presents it as something divine in the cave.



going by this logic, there are ancient temples in kashmir that was established before islam came and makes it a hindu region. so muslims are guests here and should not cause trouble. hindus were generous to give muslims, pakistan, they can go there if they dont like it

---------- Post added at 10:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 AM ----------




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How does any of the above address the issue of the continued violation of India's commitment and promise to the Kashmiris of plebiscite in Kashmir?
> 
> Diplomacy alone had not resolved the Rann of Kutch dispute - it was in fact military conflict, in which Pakistan was perceived to be successful to a degree, that possibly pushed towards both the resolution of Sir Creek through greater diplomacy, as well as the Pakistani attempt to replicate that 'military conflict' in Kashmir in 65 to push the Indians to resolve the dispute.
> 
> And broader conventional war in 1965 was initiated by the Indians in response to the infiltration attempt - at that point the use of conventional forces by Pakistan was justified lest it lose more Kashmiri territory in the face of a conventional Indian military assault.



there is no plebiscite in kashmir. please forget it. that is now a defunct idea and impossibility.


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## toxic_pus

RollingStones said:


> If asking Kashmiris to choose between settlement in Pakistan or India helps solve the problem, then both governments should seriously consider it.



That solution assumes that the problem lies with the 'fact' of denying what the Kashmiris want. Kashmir, unfortunately, was never about Kashmiris. Kashmir has always been viewed by both India and Pakistan, as a piece of land, crucial for their respective strategic and ideological needs. So the great game of Kashmir is all about denying each other the possession of that piece of land where the Kashmiris are mere pawns and acceptable collateral. 

The argument of population exchange is mere rhetoric.


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## foxbat

Azad Kashmir said:


> It's funny how much you guys moan over one policeman, when hundreds, if not thousands of Kashmiris have got the **** beaten out of them, yes I saw the video aswell, so do not say I don't know what I'm talking about. I like it how you turn a blind eye to the suffering of Kashmiris but not one of your own.
> 
> PROTIP: Do not deny that Indian Forces have not commited brutality in Kashmir.



Indian Army has committed brutality in Kashir, just like your army is doing it in NWFP, FATA etc.. And spare me the disputed area rant. 

*Anyway to happier news*

Army guns down 4 terrorists along LoC: Rediff.com India News

Four terrorists were killed as Army foiled an infiltration bid along the Line of Control [ Images ] in Nowgam sector, a defence spokesperson said on Saturday.

Troops noticed a group of heavily armed terrorists along the LoC late Friday night. The intruders were challenged and in the subsequent gunbattle, which continued through the night, four terrorists were killed, the spokesperson said.

The operation was still on when last reports came in, the spokesperson added.

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## billi

there is no mention of the kashmir riots by mercenaries in any top news channel today. Has it stopped . If so, confirmed only some "foreign hand" (wah what a name we coined) is 100% responisble for fomenting trouble.


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## javaman

*Army foils infiltration bid, four militants killed*

Srinagar: Four militants were killed as the Army foiled an infiltration bid along the Line of Control in Nowgam sector, a defence spokesperson said on Saturday. 

Troops noticed a group of heavily-armed militants along the LoC late last night. The intruders were challenged and in the subsequent gunbattle, which continued through the night, four militants were killed, the spokesperson said. 



The operation was still on when last reports came in, the spokesperson added.


----------



## Kashmiri Nationalist

foxbat said:


> Indian Army has committed brutality in Kashir, just like your army is doing it in NWFP, FATA etc.. And spare me the disputed area rant.
> 
> *Anyway to happier news*
> 
> Army guns down 4 terrorists along LoC: Rediff.com India News
> 
> Four terrorists were killed as Army foiled an infiltration bid along the Line of Control [ Images ] in Nowgam sector, a defence spokesperson said on Saturday.
> 
> Troops noticed a group of heavily armed terrorists along the LoC late Friday night. The intruders were challenged and in the subsequent gunbattle, which continued through the night, four terrorists were killed, the spokesperson said.
> 
> The operation was still on when last reports came in, the spokesperson added.



Oh here we have another  Indian, comparing FATA & NWFP to Kashmir. In FATA & NWFP there is a war against terrioists, and FATA & NWFP don't want independence, Kashmir does. Kashmir is a freedom stuggle, the war in FATA & NWFP isn't, it's just some terrorist BS. Also, please compare the human rights abuses in Kashmir and NWFP, FATA. There is a mighty difference, furthermore we do not have the majority of our army in Kashmir.

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## foxbat

Azad Kashmir said:


> Oh here we have another  Indian, comparing FATA & NWFP to Kashmir. In FATA & NWFP there is a war against terrioists, and FATA & NWFP don't want independence, Kashmir does. Kashmir is a freedom stuggle, the war in FATA & NWFP isn't, it's just some terrorist BS. Also, please compare the human rights abuses in Kashmir and NWFP, FATA. There is a mighty difference, furthermore we do not have the majority of our army in Kashmir.



So in your view, an innocent Pakistani civilian getting killed in a NWFP is all right where as a similar situation in Kashmir is not?

While the issues in the 2 areas can be be different but the collatoral damage is not..

Don't be so caught up in sympathy for the people of another country that you ignore the deaths of your own fellow citizens..

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## JonAsad

Kashmiri Muslim protesters beat an Indian police officer during a protest on the outskirts of Srinagar, India. One person was killed as paramilitary forces fired warning shots to disperse thousands of people in a funeral procession that defied a curfew in Indian Kashmir, police said. At least 16 people were injured in protests across the region.

Protests - Week in pictures


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## dabong1

anurag_singh said:


> Sikhs don't have a problem in India. So My formula need to be applied in Kashmir directly.



Lets try it on you sikhs first......after all it was your idea.


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## dabong1

k_n said:


> Day dreaming . Here you might be intending to gain a few browny points from the sikh community but dude next time be sure before you write such a thing . A Sardar might give you a tight one for making their community look like a joke



Nothing to do with brownie point......mr singh wants to promote "ethnic cleansing".....my point is would he have been as happy if the same "ethnic cleansing" was carried out on the sikhs during the 80s-90s.


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## javaman

dabong1 said:


> Lets try it on you sikhs first......after all it was your idea.


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## Evil Flare

karan.1970 said:


> not all of them. only thr traitors who want to join Pakistan.




So lets have Referendum then .....

Dhood ka Dhood aur paani ka paani ho jayega ..

Why India is scared ?


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## anurag_singh

dabong1 said:


> Nothing to do with brownie point......mr singh wants to promote "ethnic cleansing".....my point is would he have been as happy if the same "ethnic cleansing" was carried out on the sikhs during the 80s-90s.



When did I support ethnic cleansing. Read again and then comment. You are talking about sikhs.
Sikhs are richer and educated than hindus in India on Average.
Sikhs are 1.9% of India's Population but they represent 8-10% of Indian Army.
So don't divert my opinion to wrong direction.


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## anurag_singh

Aamir Zia said:


> So lets have Referendum then .....
> 
> Dhood ka Dhood aur paani ka paani ho jayega ..
> 
> Why India is scared ?



Are You stupid. I have a thing and you want a share but you don't have power to take it then why will I give it to you. After all it is me who will decide not You. Go cry in front of whole world.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

SRINAGAR, July 3: Amnesty International on Saturday urged India to investigate the recent killing of civilians in occupied Kashmir, as thousands of Indian troops enforced a strict curfew in parts of the revolt-hit region. 

The Kashmir valley has been hit by strikes, demonstrations and curfews over the killing of 11 Kashmiri civilians during the last month by Indian troops, police and paramilitary forces struggling to control protest rallies. 

The organisation is calling on Indian authorities to investigate all the killings, the London-based rights group said in a statement. 

It added that any security personnel, as well as any protesters involved in wrongdoing should be brought to justice, and urged India to avoid excessive use of force while dealing with demonstrators. 

Indian troops have enforced a strict curfew in parts of Srinagar, southern Anantnag and northern Kupwara towns, police said. 

The curfew was briefly lifted in Anantnag on Saturday morning but had to be re-imposed after protesters clashed with troops firing tear-gas. 

The regions top leader, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, called for the withdrawal of Indian troops from civilian areas. The situation will improve if police and paramilitary forces are withdrawn from civilian areas, he told a news conference. 

These camps (of security forces) inside civilian areas are big irritants. There is a need to shift them, he said, and warned New Delhi to release jailed leaders or face more protests.AFP


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## RollingStones

jonasad said:


> Kashmiri Muslim protesters beat an Indian police officer during a protest on the outskirts of Srinagar, India. One person was killed as paramilitary forces fired warning shots to disperse thousands of people in a funeral procession that defied a curfew in Indian Kashmir, police said. At least 16 people were injured in protests across the region.
> 
> Protests - Week in pictures



wow...this picture actually means the police are well within their rights to shoot to defend. I dont think police forces in any developed countries will even let the protesters come anywhere near them. the guy in the photo who's beating up the police is masked, clearly meaning that he does not want to be identified and therefore is not a regular person on kashmir. There are deeper forces at play here, for sure.

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## GUNNER

*LeT not involved in Kashmir violence: Mirwaiz*

SRINAGAR: The Chairman of All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has rejected Indian claim of the involvement of Lashkar-e Taiba (LeT) in the violent activities in occupied Kashmir.

While addressing the news conference in Srinagar, Mirwaiz demanded that Pakistan and India should focus on Kashmir issue rather than prioritizing water, Siachen and energy project issues in the talks.

He was of the view that foreign ministers of the both countries during their meeting had to discuss Kashmir issue. SAMAA


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## JonAsad

RollingStones said:


> wow...this picture actually means the police are well within their rights to shoot to defend. I dont think police forces in any developed countries will even let the protesters come anywhere near them. the guy in the photo who's beating up the police is masked, clearly meaning that he does not want to be identified and therefore is not a regular person on kashmir. There are deeper forces at play here, for sure.



Yh this 17-18 year old kid is Ajmal Kasabs brother and he is a Pakistani sent in Kashmir to beat the police, so what?


----------



## anurag_singh

jonasad said:


> Yh this 17-18 year old kid is Ajmal Kasabs brother and he is a Pakistani sent in Kashmir to beat the police, so what?



So don't cry over killing of such bastards.


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## LURKER

jonasad said:


> Yh this 17-18 year old kid is Ajmal Kasabs brother and he is a Pakistani sent in Kashmir to beat the police, so what?



" no actually he's a peaceful demonstrator who came to take part in a peaceful rally but indian police started firing tear gas shell just coz they didnt like so much peace and the guy retaliated and covered his face got a stick and started thrashing the police . " 

my article deserves a place in rupeenews.


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## JonAsad

anurag_singh said:


> So don't cry over killing of such bastards.



and dont cry when these Son of Bitc*es police is beaten by them.

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## JonAsad

pak fa said:


> " no actually he's a peaceful demonstrator who came to take part in a peaceful rally but indian police started firing tear gas shell just coz they didnt like so much peace and the guy retaliated and covered his face got a stick and started thrashing the police . "
> 
> my article deserves a place in rupeenews.



No- your crap is well suited for ToI


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## majesticpankaj

anurag_singh said:


> So don't cry over killing of such bastards.


with all due respect , they r citizen of r country but misdirected. ur sentiment won't improve the situation

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## LURKER

jonasad said:


> and dont cry when these Son of Bitc*es police is beaten by them.



probably this son of b**** policeman is also a kashmiri ( kashmir police consists of local ppl of j & k )


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## JonAsad

pak fa said:


> probably this son of b**** policeman is also a kashmiri ( kashmir police consists of local ppl of j & k )



probably thats why he got the beating...
send an indian policeman there.... and ram ram satiye to him


----------



## javaman

jonasad said:


> probably thats why he got the beating...
> send an indian policeman there.... and ram ram satiye to him



ram ram 4 the protestors,soon they will be sent to their holes


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## JonAsad

javaman said:


> ram ram 4 the protestors,soon they will be sent to their holes



Great and the indian policemen will be sent back to their wh*res in coffins


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## LURKER

jonasad said:


> probably thats why he got the beating...
> send an indian policeman there.... and ram ram satiye to him



indian army is deployed to fix these bas****'s meeting with their 72 virgins in hell . dnt worry for that . 

by the way the policeman in pic is an INDIAN policeman . a "KASHMIRI INDIAN "


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## javaman

jonasad said:


> Great and the indian policemen will be sent back to their wh*res in coffins



who knows it but b4 this they will do their work perfectly


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## JonAsad

pak fa said:


> indian army is deployed to fix these bas****'s meeting with their 72 virgins in hell . dnt worry for that .
> 
> by the way the policeman in pic is an INDIAN policeman . a "KASHMIRI INDIAN "



This word Indian is enough to send these bit*hes to hell


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## S_O_C_O_M

pak fa said:


> *indian army is deployed to fix these bas****'s meeting with their 72 virgins in hell *. dnt worry for that .
> 
> by the way the policeman in pic is an INDIAN policeman . a "KASHMIRI INDIAN "



kashmiri hindu to be more precise.


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## JonAsad

javaman said:


> who knows it but b4 this they will do their work perfectly



yeah they will rape innocent women, torture/kill innocent kashmiries.. this is their duty in kashmir.. they are better of dead...may all of them rot in hell.


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## LURKER

jonasad said:


> This word Indian is enough to send these bit*hes to hell



so u'll send all kashmiris on indian side of kashmir to hell ?? 

that does it for your so called kashmir love 

gr8 going frnd

all kashmiris on indian side of kashmir are indians like it or not. j&k police consists of ppl of j&k. many work in the army . in govt dept nd all over india. one of my kashmiri friend ( he's a muslim ) has just cleared the CDS exam and will join the army. 

of these few separatist fanatics ....well they represent a very small % & we very well knw how to take care of them


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## JonAsad

pak fa said:


> so u'll send all kashmiris on indian side of kashmir to hell ??



nice try.. i hvnt said that nor i need to clarify your BS assumtions





pak fa said:


> all kashmiris on indian side of kashmir are indians like it or not. j&k police consists of ppl of j&k. many work in the army . in govt dept nd all over india. one of my kashmiri friend ( he's a muslim ) has just cleared the CDS exam and will join the army.
> 
> of these few separatist fanatics ....well they represent a very small &#37; & we very well knw how to take care of them




Well to open your eyes, its not the kashmiri police killing innocent kashmiries its the Indian army stationed there thats doing the killings..

Unfortunately for you these so called few separatist makes the majority of kashmir valley. Thats why bulk of your army is stationed there.

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## anurag_singh

jonasad said:


> and dont cry when these Son of Bitc*es police is beaten by them.



Where am I crying . You people are crying therefore You interfere in India's internal matter. I never interfered in Pakistan's internal matter. So repeating my words don't help you.


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## anurag_singh

to all Indians :-
Kashmir is India's Integral part . So any unrest in kashmir is India's internal matter so don't reply on any pakistani's remark on our internal matter. Let them bark.


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## billi

Aamir Zia said:


> So lets have Referendum then .....
> 
> Dhood ka Dhood aur paani ka paani ho jayega ..
> 
> Why India is scared ?


what referendum? if referendum happens then still india will win because if you bring kashmir pandits that 50% of J and K wilbe non-muslim. but india will not have referendum until its govt takes over Azad Kashmir and pakistan reopens the conditions of 1947, and will be ready to accept the rest of indian muslims into pakistan and get back aksai chin from china. 
end of story. 
there is one street in my city which is majorit muslim, should we have a referendum and ask them to join pak? or if there is a street in karachi which is majority hindu will you ask them to join india?


----------



## vsdoc

Azad Kashmir said:


> Oh here we have another  Indian, comparing FATA & NWFP to Kashmir. In FATA & NWFP there is a war against terrioists, and FATA & NWFP don't want independence, Kashmir does. Kashmir is a freedom stuggle, the war in FATA & NWFP isn't, it's just some terrorist BS. Also, please compare the human rights abuses in Kashmir and NWFP, FATA. There is a mighty difference, furthermore we do not have the majority of our army in Kashmir.



When you stop rolling on the floor, maybe you would realise that the "war" in Kashmir is also against terrorists. Terrorists who come from your country. Terrorists who terrorise and blow up and maim and rape and kill more civilian Kashmiris than Indian forces.

Right. FATA and your NWFP do not want "independence" cause my friend they have never considered themselves to be part of Pakistan in the first place. Ever. Everyone in the world except Pakistanis it seems realises that.

As for Kashmir being a "freedom struggle," then my friend so is Balochistan. They never wanted to be part of Pakistan for as long as you claim Kashmir never wanted to be part of India. They have fought at last count three major wars of independence against your armed forces. 

These were full blown uprisings which were glossed over by Punjabi Pakistani powers as mere nuisance-value violent clashes instigated by disgruntled elite Baloch lords based mainly abroad. But the world knows and has increasingly come to realise that the sentiment on the ground is very different and sooner rather than later things will come to a head. Yet again.

Lastly, the world is yet to come to know of the full magnitude of the death of ordinary civilian Pakistanis in the operations being carried out by your Armed Forces against your Taliban since the past couple of years. Once those figures start filtering out, as they most definitely will (nothing remains hidden in today's "connected" world ..... not even the badlands of pakistan), that is the time most of you guys will be invited by the world in general, and us Indians in particular, to indulge in intellectual debates on "human rights."

We can continue this finger pointing game till then. From the A/C comfort of our homes and offices, with a mug of coffee in one hand, and our computers logged on to our favorite forum, with the mouse in the other.

Cheers, Doc

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## Areesh

foxbat said:


> Indian Army has committed brutality in Kashir, just like your army is doing it in NWFP, FATA etc.. And spare me the disputed area rant.
> 
> *Anyway to happier news*
> 
> Army guns down 4 terrorists along LoC: Rediff.com India News
> 
> *Four terrorists were killed as Army foiled an infiltration bid along the Line of Control [ Images ] in Nowgam sector, a defence spokesperson said on Saturday.
> 
> Troops noticed a group of heavily armed terrorists along the LoC late Friday night. The intruders were challenged and in the subsequent gunbattle, which continued through the night, four terrorists were killed, the spokesperson said.*
> 
> The operation was still on when last reports came in, the spokesperson added.



So how much money they would receive from GOI. They did all this for the money. Paisa kitna milai ga yeh batao.


----------



## blueoval79

Areesh said:


> So how much money they would receive from GOI. They did all this for the money. Paisa kitna milai ga yeh batao.



Is achhe kaam ke liye to jitna mile utna kam hai.....

waise ...kuch paise toh Jihadion ki taraf se bhi milne chahiye...bhai unki meeting jo fix kar di hai "72 Virgins" ke saath ....jannat main...LOL


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## Areesh

vsdoc said:


> When you stop rolling on the floor, maybe you would realise that the "war" in Kashmir is also against terrorists. Terrorists who come from your country. Terrorists who terrorise and blow up and maim and rape and kill more civilian Kashmiris than Indian forces.
> 
> Right. FATA and your NWFP do not want "independence" cause my friend they have never considered themselves to be part of Pakistan in the first place. Ever. Everyone in the world except Pakistanis it seems realises that.
> 
> As for Kashmir being a "freedom struggle," then my friend so is Balochistan. They never wanted to be part of Pakistan for as long as you claim Kashmir never wanted to be part of India. They have fought at last count three major wars of independence against your armed forces.
> 
> These were full blown uprisings which were glossed over by Punjabi Pakistani powers as mere nuisance violent clashes instigated by disgruntled elite Baloch lords based mainly abroad. But the world knows and has increasingly come to realise that the sentiment on the ground is very different and sooner rather than later things will come to a head. Yet again.
> 
> Lastly, the world is yet to come to know of the full magnitude of the death of ordinary civilian Pakistanis in the operations being carried out by your Armed Forces against your Taliban since the past couple of years. Once those figures start filtering out, as they most definitely will (nothing remains hidden in today's "connected" world ..... not even the badlands of pakistan), that is the time most of you guys will be invited by the world in general, and us Indians in particular, to indulge in intellectual debaes on "human rights."
> 
> We can continue this finger pointing game till then. From the A/C comfort of our homes and offices, with a mug of coffee in one hand, and our computers logged on to our favorite forum, with the mouse in the other.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Ah the dreams of an Indian fan boy continues.



> When you stop rolling on the floor, maybe you would realise that the "war" in Kashmir is also against terrorists. Terrorists who come from your country. Terrorists who terrorise and blow up and maim and rape and kill more civilian Kashmiris than Indian forces.



Typical Indian fan boy with his ridiculous rant.



> Right. FATA and your NWFP do not want "independence" cause my friend they have never considered themselves to be part of Pakistan in the first place. Ever. Everyone in the world except Pakistanis it seems realises that.



Everyone in the world. Lolzzz. Only some pathetic souls. Why don't the pashtun members of this forum should be given a chance to give their verdict about whether they want to be a part of Pakistan or not. Why don't you come to FATA and NWFP and ask yourself. The results may be surprising for you as you are a fan boy.



> As for Kashmir being a "freedom struggle," then my friend so is Balochistan. They never wanted to be part of Pakistan for as long as you claim Kashmir never wanted to be part of India. They have fought at last count three major wars of independence against your armed forces.



Baluchistan was, is and never will be a disputed territory. So it is ridiculous to bring it in the discussion. They have fought three when ever they get support from Indian and Afghan support from Afghanistan and when they don't. They are happy with Pakistan. In the future when the Indian and Afghan interference would be eliminated from the land of Afghanistan they would again settle with what they have right now. 



> These were full blown uprisings which were glossed over by Punjabi Pakistani powers as mere nuisance violent clashes instigated by disgruntled elite Baloch lords based mainly abroad. But the world knows and has increasingly come to realise that the sentiment on the ground is very different and sooner rather than later things will come to a head. Yet again.



Huh. Keep dreaming buddy. Daud of Afghanistan left this world dreaming such wet dreams and so will you and many others like you.



> Lastly, the world is yet to come to know of the full magnitude of the death of ordinary civilian Pakistanis in the operations being carried out by your Armed Forces against your Taliban since the past couple of years. Once those figures start filtering out, as they most definitely will (nothing remains hidden in today's "connected" world ..... not even the badlands of pakistan), that is the time most of you guys will be invited by the world in general, and us Indians in particular, to indulge in intellectual debaes on "human rights."



Huh. I think you are conveying your dreams to us. Who will be debating about those so called human rights atrocities. The failed America and NATO or the pathetic India. Yeah world might give a statement or two to cover their failure in Afghanistan or a pathetic European or American NGO might issue a so called "Human Rights Atrocities" report but who cares about them. They issue such reports every other day to get a headline in the newspapers and websites. Nothing changes.




> We can continue this finger pointing game till then. From the A/C comfort of our homes and offices, with a mug of coffee in one hand, and our computers logged on to our favorite forum, with the mouse in the other.



Till what? Your dreams getting fulfilled? I think you have to wait a lot more then you dream of. it is good to have a coffee while sitting in front of our PC's but it is even better if we won't get banned for supporting terrorism and conveying our dreams to others. I hope you know what I am saying.


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## Areesh

blueoval79 said:


> Is achhe kaam ke liye to jitna mile utna kam hai.....
> 
> waise ...kuch paise toh Jihadion ki taraf se bhi milne chahiye...bhai unki meeting jo fix kar di hai "72 Virgins" ke saath ....jannat main...LOL



Nahi yaar GOI sai bhi to kuck na kuch milna chahiye. Warna IA to hai hi farigh logon ki army. Ab paisa bhi nahi milai ga to is ko join karnai ka kia faida.

I hope they would some good amount from GOI unless any human rights organization spoil their party.


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## JonAsad

anurag_singh said:


> Where am I crying . You people are crying therefore You interfere in India's internal matter. I never interfered in Pakistan's internal matter. So repeating my words don't help you.





anurag_singh said:


> to all Indians :-
> Kashmir is India's Integral part . So any unrest in kashmir is India's internal matter so don't reply on any pakistani's remark on our internal matter. Let them bark.



Last time i checked Kashmir is a disputed territory. So its not your internal matter afterall. 


*Kashmir violence leaves 8 dead*
*Last Updated: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 | 12:19 PM ET *
*The Associated Press *

Violence continued to spiral in Indian Kashmir on Tuesday as* five suspected insurgents *and *three Indian soldiers* were killed in a fierce gunbattle and* two people were killed *as *government troops fired on anti-India protesters*, officials said.

Tensions have been high across the divided Himalayan region as government forces allegedly have killed *at least eight other people during two weeks of protests demanding independence.*

Muslim militants have fought in the Indian-controlled part of Kashmir since 1989 for independence or merger with Pakistan.

On Tuesday, thousands of police in riot gear patrolled the main city, Srinagar, and shops, businesses and government offices were shut.






A Kashmiri protester throws a stone at police in Srinagar, India, on Tuesday. (Dar Yasin/Associated Press)




*A Kashmiri protester throws a stone at police in Srinagar, India, on Tuesday. (Dar Yasin/Associated Press)Police and paramilitary soldiers drove through neighbourhoods warning people to stay indoors and not participate in pro-independence protests, said Afaq Wani, a Srinagar resident. He said it was almost a curfew-like situation.*

Sajad Ahmed, a local police officer, said no curfew has been imposed, but that the state government has banned the assembly in public of more than five people. Troops also erected steel barricades and laid razor wire across main roads to prevent public gatherings.

"We're imposing restrictions to avoid clashes," Ahmed said.

Similar restrictions were also imposed in several other towns in the region. In the violence-torn town of Sopore, 55 kilometres northwest of Srinagar, an indefinite curfew was in force for the fifth consecutive day.





The protests have been some of the biggest in two years 

However, *thousands of people defied the government orders across the state*. Clashes erupted as police and paramilitary soldiers chased the protesters who threw rocks at them in retaliation, said a police officer on condition of anonymity.

Both the* civilian deaths Tuesday were in Anantnag*, a town 55 kilometres south of Srinagar. Local residents said one of the dead, Ishtiyaq Ahmed Khanday, 15, was not part of any protests and was killed in the compound of his home.

*A separate gunbattle near the India-Pakistan frontier broke out on Monday when a group of suspected militants infiltrated into Indian territory in the Nowgam sector, Col. Vineet Sood, an army spokesman, said Tuesday.*

*Nuclear-armed Pakistan and India have fought two wars over Kashmir. India accuses Pakistan of funding and training militants in the Pakistani-held portion of Kashmir and helping them slip over to the Indian side to fight. Islamabad denies the charge.*

*More than 68,000 people, mostly civilians, have been killed in the conflict since 1989*

CBC News - World - Kashmir violence leaves 8 dead

Internal matter my A$$.. huh


----------



## blueoval79

Areesh said:


> Nahi yaar GOI sai bhi to kuck na kuch milna chahiye. Warna IA to hai hi farigh logon ki army. Ab paisa bhi nahi milai ga to is ko join karnai ka kia faida.



Paisa bahut zaruri hai bhai....iske bina to kaam ka maza nahi aata....kam wahi karo jo dil ko achha lage aur paise bhi mile...dil khol ke......



> I hope they would some good amount from GOI unless any human rights organization spoil their party.



Human Rights wale.......hmmm bhonkne wale bina daant ke tutte....chalo unke age bhi kuch haddi dall deinge....


----------



## JonAsad

*'Fake killings' return to Kashmir*

By Altaf Hussain
Page last updated at 13:23 GMT, Monday, 28 June 2010 14:23 UK
BBC News, Srinagar

Many believe that 'fake killings' are taking place in Kashmir. Three men went missing in Indian-administered Kashmir in April.

Nothing extraordinary about that, but some time later their bodies were discovered near the Line of Control (LoC), which separates Indian- and Pakistani-administered Kashmir - a fate which militants trying to cross the border often meet.


Many believe that 'fake killings' are taking place in Kashmir.

But during investigations, the police discovered that the men had been killed in a staged gun battle in a frontier area.

The probe also revealed that a senior officer of the Indian army - a major - had the three men kidnapped by offering them jobs as porters. 

The troops later informed the police that they had killed three militants. The army also claimed to have found Pakistani currency and arms and ammunition on the three men.

The major has been suspended and another senior soldier transferred from his post. The army has pledged to "co-operate" with the police in investigations.

So have 'fake encounter' killings - where the security forces are alleged to carry out extrajudicial killings - returned to Kashmir?

Political leaders across the spectrum - pro-Indian, anti-Indian and government ministers - think so.

'Bogey of infiltration'

"There are hardliners in the Indian Army and intelligence agencies, as there are in Pakistan, who think that by raising the bogey of infiltration and gun battles near the border they can create terror among people and also put pressure on Pakistan," says Mehbooba Mufti, prominent pro-India leader who heads the largest opposition party in the state.

Kashmir's law minister, Ali Mohammad Sagar says there have been "several proven cases of fake encounters in the past 20 years". 

Investigating the latest "fake encounters" of the three men from Nadihal village in Barramulla district, the police said that the army major had done it to get "a promotion and/or a cash reward".





The army has been accused of carrying out 'fake killings" 

But the army rejects this allegation, saying cash rewards for killing militants are a "myth".

The army has been accused of carrying out 'fake killings" "Awards are given for individual bravery of a soldier," says army spokesman Lt Col JS Brar.

The army says it has "zero tolerance" for human rights violations and soldiers found guilty are punished. 

It says more than 1,500 allegations of such violations reported to it had been investigated, and the overwhelming majority of them had "been found to be false".

But reports of such "fake encounters" continue to surface from time to time in Kashmir.

Three years ago five bodies were exhumed in Ganderbal district as a probe into claims that police were fabricating clashes with militants as an excuse to carry out extrajudicial killings. 

They had been buried as foreign militants, but later turned out to be civilians.

Unnamed graves

The district police chief and some other officers were arrested in connection with the incident.

Rights groups wonder why none of the army officers involved in the joint "fake encounter" with the police were arrested.

Also, human rights groups discovered nearly 3,000 unnamed graves in the Baramulla and Kupwara districts a couple of years ago.

Rights activist Khurram Pervez says 50 bodies buried in some of the graves were exhumed. And of the 47 which were identified, all but one were those of civilians.


There have been widespread protests against the killings 

Most of the people in Kashmir feel that such "fake killings" can be checked if the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) is withdrawn.

The law gives the armed forces the powers of search and seizure. But more importantly, it gives them immunity against prosecution unless the Indian government accords prior sanction for such prosecution.

There have been widespread protests against the killings The law protects soldiers who may kill a civilian by mistake or in unavoidable circumstances during an operation against militants.

But many like leading lawyer Mian Abdul Qayoom say that the law has been "misused to kill innocent civilians".

Mr Qayoom says the Indian government has withheld sanction to prosecute a soldier even when it is known that he killed civilians "arbitrarily".

"This is proof that such killings are a policy of the government rather than an aberration on the part of an individual soldier," he says.

Political parties, including the governing National Conference, have repeatedly asked for the withdrawal of the law to make soldiers more accountable.

Mehbooba Mufti says the withdrawal of AFSPA has been recommended by a committee set up by the prime minister. 

But there is still no indication that it may be withdrawn soon.

Till then, many in Kashmir believe, such "fake encounters" will keep happening.

BBC News - 'Fake killings' return to Kashmir


----------



## Areesh

blueoval79 said:


> Paisa bahut zaruri hai bhai....iske bina to kaam ka maza nahi aata....kam wahi karo jo dil ko achha lage aur paise bhi mile...dil khol ke......
> 
> 
> 
> Human Rights wale.......hmmm bhonkne wale bina daant ke tutte....chalo unke age bhi kuch haddi dall deinge....



Yup money is important and its importance increase if you are n Indian soldier deployed in IOK.

I hope no human rights organization won't raise objection to this encounter for being fake. Bicharon ka paisa phans jaye ga.


----------



## blueoval79

Areesh said:


> Yup money is important and its importance increase if you are n Indian soldier deployed in IOK.
> 
> I hope no human rights organization won't raise objection to this encounter for being fake. Bicharon ka paisa phans jaye ga.



Kaho to kuch paisa us paar bhej dain..... P....O.....K main ......Then human rights organizations will appreciate India's concern for other Human beings....


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## Areesh

blueoval79 said:


> *Kaho to kuch paisa us paar bhej dain..... P....O.....K main ......*Then human rights organizations will appreciate India's concern for other Human beings....



No give it to Maoists. It might stop them from slaughtering Broiler Murghas in India.


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## blueoval79

Areesh said:


> No give it to Maoists. It might stop them from slaughtering Broiler Murghas in India.



Hum to taiyaar hain...wahi kehte hain ki pehle .....Western front dekho...Hum kahan bhage jaa rahe hain.....hum to ghar ki murgi hain...jab chahe paka lena...

Aa gaye miyan aukaat pe....Kashmir pe nahi chali to bhag ke Lal bandaro ke paas pahunch gaye...


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## Areesh

blueoval79 said:


> Hum to taiyaar hain...wahi kehte hain ki pehle .....Western front dekho...Hum kahan bhage jaa rahe hain.....hum to ghar ki murgi hain...jab chahe paka lena...
> 
> Aa gaye miyan aukaat pe....Kashmir pe nahi chali to bhag ke Lal bandaro ke paas pahunch gaye...



They are making you a fool. That is why they are sending you to western front so they keep slaughtering "Broiler Murghas". Don't believe what they say.


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## blueoval79

Areesh said:


> They are making you a fool. That is why they are sending you to western front so they keep slaughtering "Broiler Murghas". Don't believe what they say.




Ghar ke bandar to kabhi bhi pinjre main a jayainge......pehle ...us par ke dum kate chachundar se nipat lete hain.......


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## Areesh

blueoval79 said:


> Ghar ke bandar to kabhi bhi pinjre main a jayainge......pehle ...us par ke dum kate chachundar se nipat lete hain.......



Do it as soon as possible or else ghar kai bandar might make you one like them.


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## blueoval79

Areesh said:


> Do it as soon as possible or else ghar kai bandar might make you one like them.



Bandar jo bhi kar le....sirf ped ki daal ko hila sakta hai.....iske ilava kuch nahi kar sakta....jayada uchlega to ped se neeche gir jayega....isliye ....relax.....Yeh bandar bhi ...Khalistahi bandaro ki tarah kuch naach gaa ke shant go jayega.....


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## Areesh

blueoval79 said:


> Bandar jo bhi kar le....sirf ped ki daal ko hila sakta hai.....iske ilava kuch nahi kar sakta....jayada uchlega to ped se neeche gir jayega....isliye ....relax.....Yeh bandar bhi ...Khalistahi bandaro ki tarah kuch naach gaa ke shant go jayega.....



This is exactly what one bandar thinks about the other one.


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## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> This is exactly what one bandar thinks about the other one.



How you know that much about bandars ...... dude mujhe tum par doubt ho raha hai ......


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## EjazR

*Connect with the people*

A few days before his assassination, Kashmiri separatist leader Abdul Ghani Lone told me it was time that the Kashmiri political forces regained control of the situation; otherwise, the consequences would be miserable. He alluded to the growing marginalisation of the political leadership among the youth and ascendancy of hopelessness. Ironically, after he was killed by Lashkar men, the youth participating in his funeral on May 22, 2002, raised pro-Lashkar slogans.

From north to south, blood is spilling on the streets of the Kashmir Valley. Lone's prophecy that the impotence or de-legitimisation of the political leadership would result in chaos seems true today. Over a period of few months, more than a dozen youth have died in protests, which can be termed as 'suicides'. No doubt the Kashmir Valley is not a stranger to protests. From 1931 to 2010, protests have marked every significant political event in the region though reasons differed in each case. This time around, the nature of the protests is remarkably different. The youth are attacking bunkers of security personnel, knowing fully well that this is suicidal.

The political leadership in the state and country are groping for answers to the vicious cycle of protests that have broken out in the Valley in recent times. Omar Abdullah, the Jammu & Kashmir chief minister, was certainly right when he described these protests as a battle of wits and a battle of ideas rather than a mere law and order problem. His minister, Ali Mohammad Sagar, was more direct in saying that the authorities cannot fight the people. Army chief General V K Singh has rightly underscored the need for political initiatives since militarily, the army has brought the overall internal security situation in J&K firmly under control.

Implicitly, the signs of desperation and chaos among the youth indicate the failure of the political leadership, mainstream or separatist. The ruling National Conference has 17 legislators from the Kashmir Valley out of 45 seats in the 87-member J&K assembly. Good intentions apart, Omar has inherited the structural problem that is rooted in the centralised polity of the state. A democratic structure is not merely about electing the people who man the top echelons of power. Holding elections to elect a chief minister and his cabinet is an essential element of a healthy working democratic system, but it is far from adequate. The people should feel part of a system which is accessible and accountable.

The entire system of governance in the state is concentrated in the hands of the chief minister and his overstretched cabinet. He holds public durbars to address the grievances of the people. The intent is noble but far from intelligent. Not everyone can reach the chief minister. Nor does the chief minister have the capacity to do a follow-up in every case. This job could have been effectively performed by the lower tiers of governance had they existed in the first place.

J&K is the only state in the country with no elected district and block bodies. The lower tiers of elected bodies act as a feedback mechanism of the state government. They go a long way in addressing the grievances of the people, including human rights violations. In the Kashmir Valley, there is a yawning gap between the government and the governed.

The separatist political leadership is in a shambles and has little political vision based on pragmatism. The All Parties Hurriyat Conference's leadership never had a grassroots engagement with the people. It remained an organisation whose main occupation was to issue timely press statements and call for strikes. None of the separatist leaders ever tried to prepare society for a non-violent struggle that is based on progressive and secular values. All separatist leaders have merely been on the bandwagon of the protests of the youth at various occasions. Yasin Malik in his later avatar as a believer in non-violence was an exception to the rule to some extent, given that he tried to politically engage with society at multiple levels.

The analysis that such sustained protests by the youth are simply the handiwork of anti-national elements is implausible. Statements like these undermine India's case and even demonstrate the lack of its ability to learn from past events in Kashmir. No outside involvement succeeded in the Kashmir Valley till the time a fertile ground for it was created in the region. In 1965, Pakistan sent raiders to occupy the Kashmir Valley by force. The misadventure backfired badly as Kashmiris didn't support the invaders.

The current vicious cycle of violence may be broken, for the time being, with the use of smart techniques of crowd dispersal. From a long-term perspective, establishment of empowered political institutions at various levels of governance is the best remedy to avoid a situation like this. Ushering in the required changes will enable the political machinery to acquire influence over Kashmiri youth and their parents. Mere dependence on security measures will only prove to be counterproductive.

_The writer is a Fulbright fellow at New York University. _


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## ejaz007

What proof does the author has that he was assasinated by the Lashkar men. This has become a sort of fashion in India to blame either Pakistan or Lashkar for whatever happens in India or Indian occupied Kashmir.

His own son blamed Indian government for his fathers assasination.


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## EjazR

^^Lone was killed by pro-Pakistan militant groups just lime Mirwaiz Umar Farooq's father as well. These people were pro-independence and more popular and hence not liked. However, Abdul Ghani Lone was actually platable to the idea of internal autonomy and was planning to contest elections as well. Many candidates were assassinated in 2001-2002 as well. Arif Jamals' Shadow war documents this.

Sajjad Lone blamed the "governments of Indian and Pakistani Kashmir" for his fathers death. Meaning they were indirectly responsible by not resolving the situation. Also note that Sajjad Lone took part in the elections in 2008 as an independent candidate.


----------



## Areesh

New death in Indian Occupied Kashmir: police


SRINAGAR, India  *A young man was killed Tuesday when security forces opened fire at stone-throwing protesters in Indian Kashmir, police said, the latest in a series of deaths that have stoked public anger.*
Indian police and paramilitary forces struggling to control protests in the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley have now killed 12 civilians in less than a month.
"The young man was killed when security forces opened fire at a very violent rally," a police officer who declined to be named told AFP.
The incident took place in Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian occupied Kashmir, which has been at the centre of furious demonstrations since June 11 when a 17-year-old student died from a police teargas shell.
Tuesday's death occurred when security forces opened fire to disperse a demonstration triggered by the disappearance of another protester, a witness said.
The youth went missing Monday evening after separatist protesters clashed with police and paramilitary forces in Srinagar.
Residents said he drowned in a stream during the clash, though no official comment has been issued on the allegation.
Crowds poured onto the streets on Tuesday morning chanting, "we want freedom" and "blood for blood."
Separatists have fought against rule by New Delhi for 20 years, campaigning for independence or for Muslim-majority Kashmir to join neighbouring Pakistan.
The insurgency, which India says is fuelled by Pakistan, has claimed tens of thousands of lives.

New death in restive Indian occupied Kashmir: police


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## EjazR

^^^ Well that is your misconception. The J&K police has never been short on recruitment so there is definitely a desire to be part of the police force. Ofcourse the reason could be from serving the people of J&K police to being a corrupt officer and take bribes but that's the reality.

And majority of the HR violations have been tackled by the J&K police. The Machil encounter which "started" the current round of protests was not discovered by the separatists or the people. It was the J&K police on the basis of a missing person's report who dug out the truth.

So you should be thankful to the J&K police who brought the truth to light.


----------



## EjazR

*The Stone War - Express India*
Muzamil Jaleel
_A stone is a stone, but when it flies midway between a young boy and a soldier in Kashmir, it becomes a political statement._

It is the pent up anger, frustration, and aspiration of an entire generation that crystallizes into a quarter of a brick, a boulder or a pebble. It is a game - of hide and seek, of attack and retreat, of running away from an almost certain death through narrow lanes blinded by tear-smoke, of confronting plastic pellets and live bullets with sharp edged stones. At times, it is a weapon put in rented hands by politicians and even police officials to create chaos or corner their adversary. It is a visible sign of a transition in the contours of the larger Kashmir conflict where young men pick a piece of brick or a rock and not an AK rifle to confront the state. It&#8217;s a tool of resistance: a genuine protest to exhibit frustration against political status quo. It&#8217;s also an instrument of a conspiracy: a deliberate mischief to create chaos.

In a narrow lane stones and bricks fly like flocks of birds covering the view of blue sky followed by gun shots and tear smoke canisters fired from automatic rifles, making it medieval fighters against modern warfare. It is young boys &#8216;waging war against the State&#8217;. The spin doctors have even termed it as ``agitational terror&#8217;&#8217; and ``gun less terror&#8217;&#8217;. In the last three weeks alone, 11 young boys have been killed in Kashmir for stone throwing, and it seems that for each one who is shot, two are ready to take his place. Kashmir is on boil again and curfew is the shivering lid to this boiling cauldron.

Stone pelting or `Kani jung&#8217; is not new to Kashmir. There is historical evidence that the origin of stone throwing as an instrument of protest dates back to the Mughal rule in 16th century. After Mughals successfully invaded Kashmir and dethroned its last independent king Yousuf Shah Chak, Kashmiris would throw stones at the Mughal soldiers walking down from the barracks situated on the Hari Parbat hill top to run daily errands in the old city.

Its recent history, however, goes back to 1930&#8217;s when Chief Minister Omar Abdullah&#8217;s grandfather Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah lead a popular resistance against the autocratic Dogra rulers of the State. It has remained a popular tool to protest especially in Srinagar&#8217;s downtown city all through. Srinagar city used to be divided between Sheikh&#8217;s supporters, nicknamed as Sher&#8217;s or lions, and the followers of Mirwaiz Umar Farooq&#8217;s grand uncle Mirwaiz Mohammad Yousuf Shah ridiculed as Bakra&#8217;s or goats. While Sheikh was pro-India, the elder Mirwaiz&#8217;s constituency was smaller but entirely pro-Pak. And each time, there was a fight between these arch rival political groups in the city, it would involve stone throwing. There are only two changes now: more people die in police and security force response while the ambit of stone throwing has expanded from the maze of lanes in old city to the towns and villages across Kashmir. During the Amarnath land row, 60 protestors were killed in police firing while more than a thousand were injured, several among them maimed for life.

Ever since the decline of militancy in the valley, stone throwing has become the only expression of anger of a generation of young men who grew up in the conflict of last two decades. How did stone throwing take such a centre stage in Kashmir protests? Who are the stone throwers? What is their motivation? Why is there no other means adopted by the police to halt stone throwers but open fire at them?

For years, stone throwing was limited to the lanes and bylanes around Srinagar&#8217;s Jamia Masjid and Maisuma locality, where young boys would throw stones at policemen for few hours after Friday prayers &#8211; both parties retrieving later. Maisuma lanes in the vicinity of Lal Chowk, in fact, was dubbed as Kashmir&#8217;s Gaza strip because of the frequency with which young boys would pelt stones at a nearby police post here. The policemen would call it a limited day match and there would be pauses for lunch and tea. The stone throwing, however, became an issue in 2008. Militancy was at its lowest ebb and Srinagar city had limped back to calm. In the absence of a political initiative to fill the void, this tranquility soon turned out to be a fa&#231;ade. However, when thousands of people took to streets to protest the Amarnath land transfer, the signs of a changed Kashmir were evident. These were first ever massive and peaceful protests that were taken out in the valley ever since 1990. While thousands of men and women came out shouting slogans and marching on the streets here, men formed human chains around police and security force posts to avoid a confrontation. But once the government decided to put restrictions, erect barricades, spread loops of concertina wire and clamp undeclared curfew to stop the massive protest marches, the slogan shouting congregations were replaced by groups of young men throwing stones. At that time, there was a heated debate within the administration regarding the government&#8217;s strategy to tackle the situation. A section of senior police officers were arguing that the government must allow people to protest because the pent up anger can manifest into a more dangerous reaction. Their argument was that after all stones are much better than Kalashnikovs. The situation took an ugly turn on August 11, 2008 when a senior Hurriyat leader was killed in police firing at Chahal on Srinagar-Muzaffarabad road. Sixty young men were killed in the government&#8217;s effort to quell the protests against Amarnath land transfer and subsequent economic blockade of the valley in Jammu. The government never allowed public protest ever since.

As stones have literally replaced guns, it has become an intifada and a large section of separatists are now comparing it with Palestine to legitimize stone throwing as a genuine tool of the resistance. There is a strong view that stones and slogans fall in the realm of protests and a legitimate way to vent anger against the State. *The debate isn&#8217;t however over. Recently former chairman of Hurriyat moderates Molvi Abbas Ansari termed stone pelting as an unislamic act thus again racking the old controversy. The debate was initiated by former SSP Srinagar Ahfad-ul-Mujtaba in January, 2009. Mujtaba quoted a hadith, which suggested that stone throwing was not an acceptable mode of protest in Islam. In fact, separatists also organized a seminar last year to debate the legitimacy of stone throwing as a tool for resistance once chief of Jamiat-i-Ahlihadith, Moulana Showkat Ahmad Shah created a stir by coming out with a fatwa that pelting stones on the armed security personnel was not sanctioned by Islam. Shah too had quoted a hadith. Mirwaiz Umar Farooq also had backed Shah in his interpretation. In fact, Mirwaiz had made a fervent appeal to the youth ``not to indulge in stone pelting as it caused inconvenience to the masses and gave the authorities chance to defame the freedom movement&#8217;&#8217;.* The moderates, however, were rebuffed by other separatists including the hardline Hurriyat leadership, who argued that ``stone throwing is the outcome of government&#8217;s systematic denial to allow protests against the occupation of Kashmir by India&#8217;&#8217;. They argued that &#8220;the deployment of thousands of armed personnel needlessly in populated areas was a provocation in itself and it was natural for youth to react with anger and pelt stones&#8221;.

*Though stone throwing is immensely uncomforting for the people in general, this time around the debate has shifted in favour of its supporters and the reason is clear. The Machil fake encounter and subsequent killings of young men, including children, in protests has swelled the streets with anger, swinging the pendulum of debate in favour of the stone throwing boys who are seen as victims and not perpetrators of the trouble. Then the freeze in the discussion on the larger Kashmir issue too has strongly hit the legitimacy of the moderate sections of the separatists and helped the hardliners fill the void in the separatist political landscape.*

A closer look at the stone throwers exposes a new phenomenon as well. From school dropouts and unemployed youth, its reach has expanded to highly educated young men, who see it an inalienable part of the ``struggle&#8217;&#8217; especially because protest marches and congregations are disallowed. Even a special application has been created on the social networking site facebook called `Kani Jung&#8217; where one can throw virtual stones to register the protest.

*Portrait of a Stone Thrower*

Iqbal is 23. And his name is not real. He says he is aware about the consequences to offer his face for cameras or expose his name and address. A post graduate student in Kashmir University, he studies politics. ``I read and I understand. That&#8217;s why I pelt stones,&#8217;&#8217; he says. ``Its not for fun. I would love to join peaceful protests. But they don&#8217;t let us gather, not even for shouting slogans and expressing our anger&#8217;&#8217;. Referring to the protest marches of 2008, he recalls the human chains formed by men around security force pickets in Srinagar city. `*`We were protesting, which I believe is our right. We didn&#8217;t show any anger towards police or CRPF. We walked and shouted slogans,&#8217;&#8217; he says. ``But they put restrictions. They locked us up inside our homes. They put curfew and erected barricades. The government doesn&#8217;t have problem with stone pelting &#8211; they have problem with everything. They want us to be mute spectators and how can we accept that&#8217;&#8217;*.

Iqbal has a frail frame but you can see the resolve in his eyes. ``I have no confusion. The government should shut the colleges and universities in Kashmir if they want us to grow up as conformists,&#8217;&#8217; he says. He says he does not support any particular separatist leader or ideology. ``I want Kashmir issue to be resolved as per our aspirations. People have died. There are graveyards everywhere. How can they (government) even think we will shut up as if nothing has happened here&#8217;&#8217;. Iqbal lives in a congested neighbourhood in downtown city and says that his parents don&#8217;t know he joins stone throwing. ``They do suspect at times though,&#8217;&#8217; he says. ``Once I returned home in the evening and my eyes were watery because of the tear smoke. I had to come up with an excuse. My mother would freak out if she comes to know,&#8217;&#8217; he says. He says that there is no one group of stone throwers but he is never alone. ``There are scores of youngsters who are studying professional courses. I think once you are genuinely aware, you become restless in Kashmir. Then you see nothing is changing and it burns you with anger&#8217;&#8217;. To hide his stone thrower side, Iqbal has made elaborate arrangements. His wardrobe has a hidden drawer where he keeps his Halloween gear &#8211; a mask which leaves only his eyes and mouth open. He has shin pads and jogging shoes that he wears whenever he goes for the `match&#8217;. Iqbal&#8217;s father is a government employee while his mother is a house wife. ``I have two younger siblings &#8211; a brother and sister,&#8217;&#8217; he says.

Iqbal says he was ``baptized&#8217;&#8217; into stone throwing soon after government restricted public protests in 2008. ``Those protests were like carnivals of resistance. I had taken permission at home to go. Everyone participated then. But one evening, I watched a boy&#8217;s funeral on local cable television channel. I seethed with anger,&#8217;&#8217; he says. ``The police officer was justifying his death as if he was a criminal. He had thrown stones at them near Jamia Masjid and the police fired straight at his chest. Later I joined few funerals too&#8217;&#8217;. He says that at times, he feels very scared. ``But then you don&#8217;t go out alone. There is always a group and it gives you a sense of security,&#8217;&#8217; he says. Has anybody paid you ever for stone throwing? ``What do you think? I don&#8217;t need to rent myself out for money. I have enough. How can you believe the lies of the government? How can money motivate a man like me to put my life at risk,&#8217;&#8217; he says.

Why police and security force men? Iqbal says that they are the state. ``The government uses them to stop us forcibly whenever we try to take out a protest. They are the only sign of the state on the roads,&#8217;&#8217; he says and admits that the individual policeman or CRPF man has no direct relation with the Kashmir conflict. ``I am aware that they are here only because the politicians send them. But then that&#8217;s life&#8217;&#8217;.

J&K first started booking stone-pelters under the Public Safety Act during the 2008 Amarnath land row agitation. Nearly 1,500 CRPF men and three hundred policemen have been injured in stone pelting incidents and around 373 vehicles have been damaged. However, no one has died among the security forces. The Police have been maintaining that stone-pelting sessions are being organized by ring leaders and funded by separatists, insisting that this alone explains as to how such protests start simultaneously at several places across Kashmir. The police even blamed few businessmen for funding the stone pelting and a major investigation was initiated to probe the funding by a group of kerosene dealers in Srinagar city. CM Abdullah had claimed at more than one occasion that the young men are given money to pelt stones even as he agreed that several among them are driven only by ideology. Last year, Abdullah had claimed that a major business house in the valley was providing funds for stone-throwing incidents and revealed that intelligence agencies have also intercepted calls from across the border and SMSs by some separatist leaders, encouraging the youth to throw stones at security forces.

*The other side*

The story of stone pelting has twists too. The Police say that there are young men, who are directly aligned to various separatist parties. In fact, police has booked several senior separatists leaders under Public Safety Act, blaming them of orchestrating stone throwing incidents to destabilize the situation here. The normal cases for stone throwing have, however, seldom passed the scrutiny of the courts. Even separatist leaders booked under PSA &#8211; a law which allows the government to jail a person without trial for upto two years - have been quashed by the courts.

Apart from separatist involvement, stone throwing is not limited to be a tool of protest against the state alone.* There are a number of cases, where ruling party politicians have intervened to release ring leaders of stone throwers in Srinagar and Baramulla. The police and other security agencies too have infiltrated their men as stone throwers with an aim to keep tabs.*

For example in Baramulla town, the stone throwers are clearly divided between men whose motivation is either ideology or money. Recently, this divide surfaced accidently when J-K Police planned to send a group of stone pelters on an All India tour as part of a rehabilitation package, ostensibly to divert them from ``unlawful activities&#8217;&#8217;. The group was police friendly and had the blessing of a local ruling party leader. A day before the tour was to be flagged off, another group of stone throwers started pelting stones on the houses of those who had enrolled themselves for the All India tour. The police, in fact, had to replace the stone pelters with Special police officials and even regular constables for the tour to escape embarrassment.

Then the story of two main ring leaders in Baramulla exposes how stone throwers enjoy blessings of the ruling party leaders and police. Parvaiz Ahmad Kaloo nicknamed Minakumari (son/of Abdul Ahad Kaloo) of Ganai Hamam Baramulla has a Public Safety Act warrant (no 136/DCB/PSA Dated 8-9-2009) and eight FIR&#8217;s mentioned in the grounds of detention put forth by police against him. The cases against Kaloo are FIR No. 116/2008-P/S Baramulla dated 11-8-2008, FIR No 141/2009 P/S Baramulla, FIR No. 168/09--P/S Baramulla, FIR No. 147/09-P/S Baramulla, FIR No. 74/09-P/S Baramulla dated 10-4-2009 U/S 147-148-336-427-132/B RPC, FIR No. 95/09-P/S Baramulla dated 6-5-09 U /S 132/B.147.148.424 FIR No. 141/09-P/S Baramulla dated 29-6-09 U/S 147,148.353.336.332.435,307 RPC, FIR No. 168/09 P/S Baramulla dated 28-7-09-U/S 147,336,341,506,RPC. The warrant has not been executed till date because sources reveal that he is close to both the ruling party and the police.

Then Zahoor Ahmad Mala alias Raju Chorol (S/O Bashir Ahmad Mala) of Mohalla Mir Shahib, Baramulla was booked under Public Safety Act (Warrant No 117/DCB/PSA dated 25-7-2009). Mala has four FIR&#8217;s registered against him. The cases against him mentioned in the grounds of detention are FIR No.132/09 P/S Baramulla dated 14-6-2009 U/S 147,148,336,332 RPC, FIR No. 140/09P/S Baramulla dated 19-6-2009.U/S 147,336,353RPC, FIR No. 141/09 P/S Baramulla U/S 435,307,147,148,353,336,332,427 RPC and FIR No. 116-117-206 of 2008 P/S Baramulla. Though his PSA warrant was executed, sources say Mala was soon released because of the intervention of a ruling party leader in Baramulla. Sources reveal that Malla has a group of stone thrower with him, who too have cases for rioting registered against them but Police is reluctant to arrest them.

Instead of an action, the police in the past has been helping Malla and his other relative Kaloo to illegally construct shops on a highly valuable piece of government land at SRTC Bridge in Baramulla town. And when former Deputy Commissioner Baramulla Lateef- U-Zaman Deva ordered demolition of these illegal shops, sources reveal that the police didn&#8217;t even provide protection to the district adminstration&#8217;s own demolition squad.

*Two weeks ago, when shopkeepers of Tehsil road Baramulla protested against Malla and his group and even thrashed one of his stone pelters, the shopkeepers had to face the wrath of the group while police didn&#8217;t intervene. Malla&#8217;s group even pelted stones on the house of Baramulla Auqaf President, Abdul Rehman Shalla when he criticized them for pelting stones on every strike day, especially on Friday.*

The investigations into the stories of stone throwers across Kashmir, however, reveal that only a small fraction of the young men get involved in stone throwing for monitory or other benefits from either side of the divide. There are few, especially children and teenagers, who join for fun or under peer pressure. A majority of the Kashmiri young men, however, use stone throwing as a tool to give vent to their anger or are ideologically convinced that it is a legitimate instrument of resistance against the state.

*``Bullet for Stone&#8217;&#8217;*

Even as a year has passed since J-K Chief Minister Omar Abdullah said that his government is approaching foreign governments to help train special police contingents in modern crowd control techniques, the government is yet to make a move.

And in absence of the specially-trained riot control police force, the toll in the valley rises because J-K Police and Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) only respond to stone pelting with bullets. And even as the government has procured tear smoke canisters and rubber bullets to halt causalities among protestors, both the forces lack proper training. Tear smoke shells and rubber bullets are often fired straight, targeting the youth above waist especially their neck and head. This has been a reason for several deaths now. The case of 17-year old student Tufail Ahmad Matoo who died after a policeman fired a plastic pellet straight at his head from a close range is a glaring example. Matoo&#8217;s killing, in fact, was responsible to provoke this latest round of protests in which ten other young men including children were killed in police and CRPF firing.

After a string of killings during protests last year, Chief Minister Abdullah had showed his concern and emphasized that his government was looking for a permanent solution to end the &#8220;bullet-for-stone&#8221; strategy of the police and security forces to curb the unarmed protests in the valley. The government had even approached United Kingdom for help because their police force has done substantial research in modern crowd control policing.

&#8220;I am concerned about these killings,&#8221; Abdullah had told The Indian Express in February last year. &#8220;We are planning to approach foreign governments including the United Kingdom for help. We want special contingents of our police force to get trained in crowd control, without loss of human life&#8221;.

In fact, when Omar Abdullah had expressed his concern over the killings, the protests were only confined to some pockets of the old city &#8211; Nowhatta, Rajouri Kadal and Bohri Kadal. Now the protests have spread across Kashmir valley with hundreds of angry young men taking to streets in Sopore, Baramulla and other parts of the valley every week.

*The government had also promised that they were planning to introduce &#8216;Skunk&#8217; &#8211; a specially developed spray that drenches protestors with a foul-smelling liquid &#8211; and &#8216;Scream&#8217;, a noise machine that makes the protestors giddy and helps the police to disperse crowds without causing injury to them.*

*The government, however, is yet to make any effort on either front. In fact, the government abandoned its plan to seek UK help even after the officials at British embassy had made significant headway to bring in experts to provide special crowd control training to J-K police. The government has not even introduced Taser guns for safe crowd control.*

*The only crowd control machine available with the J-K government is a water canon that is rarely used to disperse the protestors. In absence of these crowd control equipments, the J-K Police and CRPF that was conditioned to fight Kalashnikov-wielding militants during past two decades had been reacting with extreme force whenever they encounter protests. And this has resulted in killing and maiming of scores of protestors.*


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## EjazR

*Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - CMs public contact in Baramulla*

_Were elected not selected: Omar

Time ripe to address root cause of K problem_

Baramulla, July 05: Chief Minister Omar Abdullah here Monday said his government was not a selected one but democratically elected by the people of Jammu and Kashmir.


Addressing people at Baramulla, Omar said: We owe it to the people of Jammu and Kashmir to live up to their expectation and fulfill their aspirations.

He said his government was committed to the people of the State and would work for them as per their wishes.

Omar said he would continue to reach out to the people at the grass root level, understand their aspirations and strive to resolve the issues close to their heart as per their expectations.

He said his government was for the people of Jammu and Kashmir and would fight for their rights and address their issues.

Omar announced that he would soon roll out a programme of meeting the civil society at the tehsil level.

Time has come to go to the root of the problem in Kashmir and address it with all sincerity, he said and appealed New Delhi that while a dialogue had started between India and Pakistan at different levels, a political dialogue between New Delhi and different shades of opinion within the State must also start in right earnest.

My government is ready to act as a facilitator for such a dialogue. At the same time I also appeal all shades of opinion to leave behind their personal agendas and come forward for a meaningful dialogue in the interest of the people of Jammu and Kashmir, Omar said.

Referring to the Uri-Muzaffarabad road he said the initiative of opening Uri-Muzaffarabad road was incomplete as long as it was only confined to the divided families.

He urged New Delhi to open the Uri-Muzaffarabad road for all the people of Jammu and Kashmir living across the Line of Control irrespective of whether they had relatives on either side.

Omar said that for peace to come to Jammu and Kashmir it was imperative that people-to-people contact between the two parts of Jammu and Kashmir must start and that there should be free movement of people across the LoC.

He said he wished that someday in his lifetime Muzaffarabad and Srinagar are linked by railway line.

The chief minister said the lines between the two countries cannot be redrawn but they can be made irrelevant. We must all work toward that.

He said during Manmohan-Musharraf talks, the two countries were close to a solution but circumstances derailed the process. However, we should not lose heart and restart an effort to initiate a meaningful dialogue and strengthen the confidence building measures between the two nations and the people on both sides of Jammu and Kashmir.

Omar said his government would work with New Delhi to strengthen cross-LoC trade and change it from a barter system to proper trade where the financial transactions actually happen through the banking system.

The chief minister said democracy gives a right to opinion and expression and he was not the one to stifle this right of anyone.

He said those who do not agree with him also should come forward, show dissent in a peaceful manner, discuss and debate various issues pertaining to the people of Jammu and Kashmir, This way a consensus can be formulated and a roadmap for a Naya Kashmir be rolled out, which is for a better, brighter and peaceful Jammu and Kashmir.

Referring to the developmental initiatives taken by the State government, the chief minister said in the past 18 months, the State government had taken various initiatives to bring in systemic changes in the process of expanding the road network, strengthening the power sector, streamlining the health sector and focused development of vocational education.

He said certain elements in the society were not happy with these initiatives and always try to derail the process of development during the limited working season available in the Valley. However, the State government is determined to fight these forces.

Omar said it was unfortunate that those disturbances affect the education of the children, tourism, trade commerce and developmental activities. We have not lost hope. We will continue in our endeavour to provide good governance and accelerate the developmental process.

The speakers in the meeting besides giving suggestions for maintaining peace also talked about developmental issues pertaining to Baramulla district.

They also stressed on enforcing restraint among troops, paramilitary forces and police while dealing with public demonstrations.

The meeting started with prayers for civilian youth killed in different incidents of firing by paramilitary CRPF and police.

The participants offered a Fateh to the slain youth and prayed for the peace of their departed souls. They also conveyed condolences to the bereaved families.

The meeting was attended by ministers Ali Muhammad Sagar, Taj Mohuiddin, Ghulam Hassan Mir, Minister of State Javaid Dar, Advisors to Chief Minister Mubarak Gul, Devender Singh Rana, Principal Secretary to Chief Minister Khurshed Ahmad Ganai, Special Commissioner M S Khan and Special IGP Pankaj Saxena.


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## vsdoc

Some of the guys are actually pretty good. 

Its obvious that this is done professionally if you notice their technique. Ask 9 out of 10 guys here to throw a stone at a stray dog in anger. See how accurate their throw will be in both line or length. Also check out the technique of release, and then ask them to chuck not one, but 20 stones, 50 stones, 100 stones. See how many of their shoulders will be able to take it. 

Most of these pro pelters use the roundarm bowling action. Which gives me an idea. Why not get these guys into fast bowling academies? Am sure we could actually finally unearth some good raw bowling talent from amongst these youngsters. And given a choice between chucking stones versus a shot at the Indian cricket team, am sure we all know what they would opt for. 

Though there is always the chance of stone pelting on the rebound by the rejects ......

Cheers, Doc

Reactions: Like Like:
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## warlock

All those who need freedom should be freed from their lives!
Kashmir is Indian territory... those who dont want to live in India can very well go to Pakistan!


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## ejaz007

billi said:


> what referendum? if referendum happens then still india will win because if you bring kashmir pandits that 50% of J and K wilbe non-muslim. but india will not have referendum until its govt takes over Azad Kashmir and pakistan reopens the conditions of 1947, and will be ready to accept the rest of indian muslims into pakistan and get back aksai chin from china.
> end of story.
> there is one street in my city which is majorit muslim, should we have a referendum and ask them to join pak? or if there is a street in karachi which is majority hindu will you ask them to join india?



Your logic is not correct. Kashmir is a disputed territory accepted by both India and Pakistan so a solution has to be found. Referendum it seems is the best and permanent solution to the problem.

A street in Karachi or New Delhi is not disputed so referendum can not take place.


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## ejaz007

*Indian troops kill another youth in HK *
Updated at: 1200 PST, Tuesday, July 06, 2010

SRINAGAR: A young man was killed Tuesday when security forces opened fire at stone-throwing agitators in Indian Held Kashmir (IHK), police said, the latest in a series of deaths that have stoked public anger.

Indian police and paramilitary forces struggling to control protests in the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley have now killed 12 civilians in less than a month.

"The young man was killed when security forces opened fire at a very violent rally," a police officer who declined to be named told media.

The incident took place in Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian Kashmir, which has been at the centre of furious demonstrations since June 11 when a 17-year-old student died from a police teargas shell.

Tuesday's death occurred when security forces opened fire to disperse a demonstration triggered by the disappearance of another protester, a witness said.

The youth went missing Monday evening after freedom fighter clashed with police and paramilitary forces in Srinagar.

Residents said he drowned in a stream during the clash, though no official comment has been issued on the allegation.

Crowds poured onto the streets on Tuesday morning chanting, "We want freedom" and "blood for blood."

Freedom fighters have fought against rule by New Delhi for 20 years, campaigning for independence or for Muslim-majority Kashmir to join neighbouring Pakistan.

The insurgency, which India alleges is fuelled by Pakistan, has claimed tens of thousands of lives. 

Indian troops kill another youth in HK


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## warlock

ejaz007 said:


> *Indian troops kill another youth in HK *
> Updated at: 1200 PST, Tuesday, July 06, 2010
> 
> SRINAGAR: A young man was killed Tuesday when security forces opened fire at stone-throwing agitators in Indian Held Kashmir (IHK), police said, the latest in a series of deaths that have stoked public anger.
> 
> Indian police and paramilitary forces struggling to control protests in the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley have now killed 12 civilians in less than a month.
> 
> "The young man was killed when security forces opened fire at a very violent rally," a police officer who declined to be named told media.
> 
> The incident took place in Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian Kashmir, which has been at the centre of furious demonstrations since June 11 when a 17-year-old student died from a police teargas shell.
> 
> Tuesday's death occurred when security forces opened fire to disperse a demonstration triggered by the disappearance of another protester, a witness said.
> 
> The youth went missing Monday evening after freedom fighter clashed with police and paramilitary forces in Srinagar.
> 
> Residents said he drowned in a stream during the clash, though no official comment has been issued on the allegation.
> 
> Crowds poured onto the streets on Tuesday morning chanting, "We want freedom" and "blood for blood."
> 
> Freedom fighters have fought against rule by New Delhi for 20 years, campaigning for independence *or for Muslim-majority Kashmir to join neighbouring Pakistan.*
> 
> The insurgency, which India alleges is fuelled by Pakistan, has claimed tens of thousands of lives.
> 
> Indian troops kill another youth in HK



who says that???
a Pakistani Newspaper?

a recent independent survey revealed that less than 2% kashmiris want to join Pak!


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## javaman

ejaz007 said:


> *Indian troops kill another youth in HK *
> Updated at: 1200 PST, Tuesday, July 06, 2010
> 
> SRINAGAR: A young man was killed Tuesday when security forces opened fire at stone-throwing agitators in Indian Held Kashmir (IHK), police said, the latest in a series of deaths that have stoked public anger.
> 
> Indian police and paramilitary forces struggling to control protests in the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley have now killed 12 civilians in less than a month.
> 
> "The young man was killed when security forces opened fire at a very violent rally," a police officer who declined to be named told media.
> 
> The incident took place in Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian Kashmir, which has been at the centre of furious demonstrations since June 11 when a 17-year-old student died from a police teargas shell.
> 
> Tuesday's death occurred when security forces opened fire to disperse a demonstration triggered by the disappearance of another protester, a witness said.
> 
> The youth went missing Monday evening after freedom fighter clashed with police and paramilitary forces in Srinagar.
> 
> Residents said he drowned in a stream during the clash, though no official comment has been issued on the allegation.
> 
> Crowds poured onto the streets on Tuesday morning chanting, "We want freedom" and "blood for blood."
> 
> Freedom fighters have fought against rule by New Delhi for 20 years, campaigning for independence or for Muslim-majority Kashmir to join neighbouring Pakistan.
> 
> The insurgency, which India alleges is fuelled by Pakistan, has claimed tens of thousands of lives.
> 
> Indian troops kill another youth in HK



they are so called freedom fighters,and freedom fighters, are not paid,do not get pay for freedom.

kashmiris want freedom frm india for not joining pak,they want their neutral country.i don't know y pak drag himself inside.but nothing will be given to them.


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## Areesh

javaman said:


> they are so called freedom fighters,and freedom fighters, are not paid,do not get pay for freedom.
> 
> *kashmiris want freedom frm india* for not joining pak,they want their neutral country.i don't know y pak drag himself inside.but nothing will be given to them.



Atleast you accepted that they want freedom. Good.


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## Areesh

Two civilians killed in Kashmir protests



By *Siddhartha Kumar 
*

Srinagar - *At least two civilians were killed in protests in Srinagar, state capital of India-administered Kashmir, officials and news reports said on Tuesday.*

People in the city's western Batamaloo area took to the streets after police fished out the body of 17-year-old Muzaffar Bhat from a drain on Tuesday morning, the IANS news agency reported.

Residents alleged that the teenager had jumped into a drain and drowned while being chased by security forces during a demonstration on Monday night.

Protests against civilian deaths erupted again on Tuesday morning with mobs throwing stones at the police and paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) in the area.

*A man identified as Fayaz Wani, 30, was killed after security forces opened fire at the mob, locals alleged. Another man was injured in the firing.
*
The CRPF, however, denied it had opened fire and said its personnel had lobbed tear-gas shells at the protestors.

At least 11 civilians have died in clashes with security forces in Indian-administered Kashmir since last month. A majority of these deaths have been blamed on the CRPF.

The latest deaths led to fresh tension in the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley that has seen a security clampdown over the past weeks in response to the protests.

In Srinagar, markets remained closed and authorities announced the closure of schools and colleges.

While separatist leaders called for a "Civil Disobedience Movement," authorities moved fresh reinforcements to locations in the city, expecting renewed protests.

Home Ministry officials have defended the security forces and blamed the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba militant group and Kashmiri separatist organisations for inciting protestors.

The region administered by India has seen a violent secessionist movement which has claimed over 45 000 lives since it peaked in the late 1980s. India has accused Pakistan of aiding Kashmiri militants, a charge Islamabad has denied, calling them freedom fighters. -

 Two civilians killed in Kashmir protests


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## javaman

Areesh said:


> Atleast you accepted that they want freedom. Good.



i also heard that ,everything can be given to them except freedom.i was talking abt those who are shouting ,it's not a worry.soon they will be sent to their corners.rest of them are ready to live with india.
it has no link with any other nation


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## Areesh

javaman said:


> i also heard that ,everything can be given to them except freedom.i was talking abt those who are shouting ,it's not a worry.soon they will be sent to their corners.rest of them are ready to live with india.
> it has no link with any other nation



Huh.. How cute dreams you have.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## EjazR

*Why kill Kashmiris Lastupdate:- Tue, 6 Jul 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com*

Kashmiris are getting killed. Why should they? Both India and Pakistan, and more importantly, the people of Kashmir should look into this tragic trail of death of fellow Kashmiris, some as young as nine and others who did not happen to see the 12th day of their life. The Indian and Pakistani sides should have a relook at what they are doing with Kashmir and, in Kashmir Pakistan is a factor in Kashmir. There are two different prisms of looking at Pakistan&#8217;s role in whatever happens in Kashmir: one , of course is the window of history that allowed Pakistan to step in on the terrain of Jammu and Kashmir. Second is its role in seeking resolution of Kashmir issue. In its bilateral dialogue with India by positioning itself as a friend of the people of Kashmir. There is no one on this planet, as of today, who doesn&#8217;t acknowledge how crucial role Pakistan can play in helping India or the people of Kashmir find a lasting solution.

Down from Jawahar Lal Nehru to Manmohan Singh, and, from Muhammad Ali Jinnah to Yousuf Raza Gilani, each one of them have expressed the similar theme, but when it comes to dealing with the issue, the middle-ground is lost in the quagmire of murky rhetoric by both India and Pakistan. There are cheer leaders propagating the hardline or putting across such unrealistic theories about the solution of Kashmir crisis that the whole context is lost.

Pakistan, despite its credentials as an Islamic Republic, is hardly a place what Kashmiris had viewed from 1940s to 80&#8217;s, or to some extent even in 1990s. The violence that sweeps across Pakistan is hardly a magnet for any of the peoples in any part of the subcontinent to live there. It is the fifth most dangerous place in the world.

As Pakistan is gripped with its own set of crisis, its role in the world affairs is getting diminished. If it is still allowing itself to be using its geo-strategic location to be used for fighting the American war against terror, it ignores long-term and disastrous consequences for its people and its own importance in the region.

Kashmir is on boil has become a clich&#233;. It is not a 2010 phenomenon. Both India and Pakistan need to understand this. It had this tag all along, since the times of Dogra rule. Today TV channels are telling you so, earlier the media reach was limited, rather negligible. It serves neither Delhi nor Islamabad&#8217;s interests if this tag lingers on. There is a need to play a positive role, rather than indulge in blame game because that adds to the sufferings of the people and shifts focus from the real issue.

In 1990s, too, it was a Kashmiri getting killed on the Line of Control, in the interiors and suffering from day to day restrictions. The story is no different today, when stones are targeted at the men in khaki. It&#8217;s Kashmiri who is getting killed whether in police/CRPF firing or in the stone throwing. Tufail Mattoo was killed, so was Rafiq Bangroo and what about that nine year old child of Delina, Baramullah or three youth of South Kashmir. At the same time, it should not be forgotten that an 11-day infant and a government employee lost their lives in the stone pelting. All of them were Kashmiris.

All of them are victims. They, in no way, were the perpetrators, whatever fiction might be woven to twist the facts. The situation in Kashmir today sits in a picture frame of leaders versus commoners. The other side is a canon fodder.

Jessica Stern, an American expert on the conflict situations has analysed some thing like this about such situations:&#8220;The leaders tend to live in comfortable houses and enjoy the trappings of their power: large cars, acolytes and bodyguards. They talk in generalities about the justice of their cause and the Almighty's firm support. Those who serve as cannon fodder, on the other hand, are likely to be young, vulnerable, socially disadvantaged and poorly educated, and to have a sense of personal or collective humiliation. Violence for the cause gives them a feeling of purpose, dignity and the transcendent experience of serving, and perhaps dying for, ideals that they regard as pure.&#8221;

Stone throwing would stop some day; curfews would be lifted and the typical administrative description of normal life : shops open, traffic on roads, schools and colleges having attendance of students and the offices of their employees, would be there. It has happened in the past and it would happen again too.

For many, it would be a business as usual. Then there would be a halting progress on the Indo-dialogue front, and some offers of talks from Delhi, its rejection by separatists in Kashmir and the mainstream parties as confused as they ever are would first ask for facilitation of dialogue and all of a sudden would place them in driver&#8217;s seat. It doesn&#8217;t require the knowledge of a rocket science to tell that Pakistan, too, would be making certain noises, loud of course, further amplified by some elements in Kashmir and elsewhere asking India to withdraw troops, revoke Armed Forces Special Powers Act and check the human rights&#8217; abuses.

All this needs to be done. There is absolutely no other option. But at the same time Pakistan would be doing a great service to itself and the people of Kashmir,* if it uses pure diplomacy as a tool to highlight its concerns, rather than applying other methods* , which not only bring it into direct confrontation with Delhi, but also besmirch its image at the international level, besides fueling trouble on its own soil.

India, too should acknowledge that the things cannot be wished away, nor Pakistan&#8217;s role. A negative attitude toward Pakistan pushes Islamabad to wall. It serves no purpose, whatsoever, in condemning Pakistan for the whole trouble in Kashmir. If looked other way round, it would be significant to note that if Pakistan is succeeding, India has some areas which it has not addressed. It should focus on that. Pakistan should be brought on board, and it should be done sooner than later.

*Another important aspect is that the people in Kashmir need to grasp that it&#8217;s their problem , it will need an indigenous and realistic solution and they should not see India through one particular prism alone . There are sections in India who share their pain and grief and understand the rage and deep-seated frustration at what is happening and what ought to happened has not materialized .*

*It&#8217;s a good thing that leaders of all hues in Kashmir have told the fundamentalists in India that the street protests or stone-throwing, in any manner is meant to cause disruption to the annual Amarnath pilgrimage. The smooth yatra is evidence of what Kashmiris are saying that yatris are welcome. A similar gesture in telling India that it should not view them through the prism of stone throwers, but what&#8217;s behind it, would help in seeking a solution to the issue. Kashmiris cannot afford to have yet another generation consumed by violence and counter-violence. This, they should tell both Delhi and Islamabad, and the best way of doing so is to present its intelligent faces in the forefront and allow them to work together to get the results, instead of allowing themselves to be grounded by perpetuating a hostile environment.*


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## dabong1

Instead of throwing stones at the indian occupation forces the brave youth should be given guns so they can protect themselfs.

If your gonna throw a stone and get shot and killed you might as well shoot first.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

dabong1 said:


> Instead of throwing stones at the indian occupation forces the brave youth should be given guns so they can protect themselfs.
> 
> If your gonna throw a stone and get shot and killed you might as well shoot first.



No wonder people in Pakistan are getting massacred every alternate week ..*Unlike Pakistan, in India we do not encourage gun culture.*


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## jha

dabong1 said:


> *Instead of throwing stones at the indian occupation forces the brave youth should be given guns so they can protect themselfs.
> *
> If your gonna throw a stone and get shot and killed you might as well shoot first.



That is already taken care of since 1988...they get excellent kalashnikovs and training to shoot at indian armed forces..sadly (for them ) this technique has fallen flat...


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## dabong1

jha said:


> That is already taken care of since 1988...they get excellent kalashnikovs and training to shoot at indian armed forces..sadly (for them ) this technique has fallen flat...



You seem to forget the freedom fighters gave you the last 10 years to move on the issue of kashmir but you did nothing........time for the boys to start shooting instead of throwing stones.


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## Spring Onion

dabong1 said:


> You seem to forget the freedom fighters gave you the last 10 years to move on the issue of kashmir but you did nothing........time for the boys to start shooting instead of throwing stones.



The Indian officials even blamed Stone throwing on ISI )) some orange idiots went to the extreme where they claimed that ISI was guding the stone pelters on cell phones  despite the fact that You can not make a call from Pakistan into Indian Occupied Kashmir

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## RescueRanger

anurag_singh said:


> Why can't It be worth lacs. After all ISI can provide money for its evil desire.





Troops fire at Kashmir protesters - CENTRAL/S. ASIA - Al Jazeera English



> Police said security forces had acted to control stone-throwing demonstrators.


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## Patriot

Jana said:


> some orange idiots went to the extreme where they claimed that ISI was guding the stone pelters on cell phones


LMAO  Kashmiris don't know how to throw stones - They need teachers


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## jha

dabong1 said:


> You seem to forget the freedom fighters gave you the last 10 years to move on the issue of kashmir but you did nothing........t*ime for the boys to start shooting instead of throwing stones*.



well shooting has never stopped as such...terrorists are still shooting at the forces..only change is that in early 90's the shootings were more frequent...BTW in last 10 years many new things were tried and perhaps a solution was also found ..but again terrorists ( freedom fighters according to you ) could not control their urge ...


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## Bushy

dabong1 said:


> Instead of throwing stones at the indian occupation forces the brave youth should be given guns so they can protect themselfs.
> 
> If your gonna throw a stone and get shot and killed you might as well shoot first.



They tried the guns, and it didn't work. The armed forces in Kashmir are under strict orders not to fire at anyone unless fired upon themselves, so they (the protesters) resort to stone pelting.

Stone Pelting has great advantages over bullets - 

1. Freely available, and greatly abundant. 
2. Stones are not categorized as weapons, so do not attract firing from the armed forces.
3. No skill-set required for stone pelting.
4. Children can be easily employed to throw stones with the accuracy and impact as good as those of adults.
5. Stone pelting is not considered a terrorist activity and so the throwers are immune to anti-terrorist laws.

I have been to Sopur which considered the hub of such activities, and have had to bear the brunt of stone throwers, and talked to some too. The fact about stone pelting as a lucrative business is as true as it sounds. If you look for it, you may even find videos of the youth on youtube.com speaking on how the money comes and is distributed along with the stones in this northern part of the valley.


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## Ammyy

GUNNER said:


> *LeT not involved in Kashmir violence: Mirwaiz*
> 
> SRINAGAR: The Chairman of All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has rejected Indian claim of the involvement of Lashkar-e Taiba (LeT) in the violent activities in occupied Kashmir.
> 
> While addressing the news conference in Srinagar, Mirwaiz demanded that Pakistan and India should focus on Kashmir issue rather than prioritizing water, Siachen and energy project issues in the talks.
> 
> He was of the view that foreign ministers of the both countries during their meeting had to discuss Kashmir issue. SAMAA



People in LeT are angels like Taliban ... right ????


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## billi

ejaz007 said:


> Your logic is not correct. Kashmir is a disputed territory accepted by both India and Pakistan so a solution has to be found. Referendum it seems is the best and permanent solution to the problem.
> 
> A street in Karachi or New Delhi is not disputed so referendum can not take place.



ok, my logic of streets was exaggerated. But I still stand about creating the conditions which were there in 1947 to hold a referendum.
Will pakistan agree to all of them. Even if it does, how will you get aksai chin in the equation. how will u accomodate the pandits. 
secondly if pakistan is saying the territory is disputed, does it claim kashmir for itself? the eeason i am asking this is because everyone in this forum seems to ssay that kashmir should be given independence. But if pak says its disputed then its staking a claim to kashmir.
if kashmir says it supports only kashmir independence then it should stop exporting terror into india and give only moral support, like how india is doing with tibet. if you claim as your own then we are negotiating , that you are currently haing 55&#37; of kashmir and we are having the smaller part.
will pakistan open its doors like in 1947, IF india loses the referendum, and declares itslef hindu state and sends forcibly muslims to Pakistan. I am saying this because in those days of 47, this was the deal and the crux for tnt, that india is for hindus and the newly created Pak for muslims of the subcontinent. Also bangladesh should also be ready to take in Indian muslims. only then referendum can happen. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING I DESIRE OR RECOMMEND, SINCE I CHERISH THE DIVERSITY OF CULTURES , BELIEFS ANS THOUGHTS WE HAVE IN INDIA.


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## EjazR

*Violence in Kashmir: Strengthen Communication between Rulers and the Ruled by Radha vinod Raju*

*Radha vinod Raju*
*Former Director General, National Investigation Agency*

Officers of the J&K cadre, especially those who joined the cadre before the eighties, would tell you that the most serious law and order problem in Srinagar was when unruly mobs would indulge in intense stone pelting. If it were wintertime, an occasional fling of the &#8216;kangri&#8217; (a small earthen pot containing burning charcoal) would add spice to the proceedings. The local executive police, aided by the Jammu & Kashmir Armed Police (JKAP) and the CRPF, would counter with lathi charge, and tear smoke. Officers who manned the District Executive police, and the District Special Branch and the CID Special Branch, were carefully chosen for their local knowledge, and would invariably give advance information about upcoming law and order problems. 

And what were the issues? They could be anything that pulled an emotional chord with the people. This writer remembers one such issue, with which neither the Central nor the State Government had anything to do. I was promoted to the rank of Superintendent of Police in March 1980, and was posted as Commandant of the 3rd Battalion of the JKAP. While most of this unit was in the winter capital, Jammu, its headquarter was in Srinagar. In the last week of March, I was asked to be in Srinagar along with my men to be in place to tackle the expected law and order issue on the first anniversary of the hanging of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, the former Prime Minister of Pakistan.

Neither the Government of India nor the J&K Government had any role in the hanging of Bhutto, but there we were, ready to face a situation in the city. The State had serious law and order problems immediately after Bhutto&#8217;s hanging, with members of the Jamaat-e-Islami and their properties coming under heavy attacks in the valley. That is how the valley reacts. Invariably in all cases, everyone goes home in the evening, and peace reigns. On the occasion of the first anniversary of Bhutto&#8217;s hanging, detailed deployments of the executive police, JKAP and the CRPF had been made. The Inspector General, the legendary Peer Ghulam Hassan Shah, was himself present in the Control Room, monitoring the situation. District SP, and Commandants of the JKAP and CRPF were available on spot to direct and guide their men.

As usual, the stone pelting in Bohri Kadal and Maharaj Gunj areas was intense. We soon received information that the CRPF Commandant was seriously injured. He was brought to the Control Room and taken to the Hospital for treatment. But there was no firing on the mob. By evening, the situation, as usual was brought under control. The Commandant of the CRPF who was seriously injured was then on deputation with the CRPF and was commanding the 40 Battalion. He rose in time to become the DGP of the State.

The force, whether it is the J&K Police or the CRPF, has to be personally led by the officer cadre. In those days, SPs and Commandants would be present in the Control Rooms during briefings, and be with their men in the field when facing situations. The men follow their leaders. Only when there is failure of leadership do men go out of control. Political leaders constantly kept in touch with the people, even during serious law and order situations.

In the last week of July 1980, there was a civilian-military clash, when some civilians allegedly roughed up some army men late in the evening, which was followed by retaliation by the army unit. The SSP of Srinagar was also seriously injured in the attack. The whole of the following day there was curfew, and attacks on the police by stone pelting mobs. This writer was in charge of the police deployed in the city. Around 3.30 pm, when clashes were still going on, there was a message from the house of the Chief Minister, Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah. The message stated that the Chief Minister would like to visit Lal Chowk and address the people. This was a time when the battle between the stone pelting mob and the police was still going on. When my view was sought, I said that the situation was not conducive for the Chief Minister to visit Lal Chowk, a typical police answer given the circumstances. But in the next half an hour, Sheikh Sahib was on his way, and there was nothing that we could do except pray.

The Chief Minister arrived at Lal Chowk and somehow got on top of a bus, and then he addressed the mob for about an hour. He explained the reason the Army was in Kashmir, said that it is going to remain there, and that the people should learn to live with the forces. He explained to the people the ground realities, and the role of various actors, including the State Government. The people then dispersed peacefully. That was the last time I saw a mass leader in communication with his people during a crisis. It may not be as easy to speak to people today, and may need much more security for a Chief Minister to go around. But the need for communication between the ruler and the ruled in a democracy cannot be overemphasized.


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## ejaz007

*Forces open fire on protesters in Held Kashmir, three killed*

** 25 injured as protesters clash with security forces in several districts 
* APHC chairman says agitation will continue until troops are withdrawn from cities*

By Iftikhar Gilani 

NEW DELHI: Fresh clashes erupted on Tuesday in Indian-held Kashmir, killing three people. 

An indefinite curfew was enforced in Srinagar and all major towns as reports of violence poured from across the valley.

Angry protesters in Srinagar barged into the house of ruling National Conference (NC) leader Irfan Shah, setting it on fire. 

A man identified as Fayaz Ahmad Wani was killed when security personnel allegedly opened fire at a stone-pelting mob. The mob was protesting the death of a man who fell into a nearby river while being chased by Indian security forces during a demonstration in Batmaloo area of the city.

Locals, however, said the man, Muzaffar Ahmed Bhat, went missing soon after a junior minister Nasir Aslam Wani visited the area.

Witnesses said Bhat was actually detained by security guards of Wani and beaten to death.

Another 25-year-old woman was killed by a stray bullet in the same area when security forces fired into the air to disperse a mob.

Defying curfew restrictions, protesters clashed with security forces in central Srinagar, prompting troops to open fire, which killed 18-year old Abrar Khan. Another youth, identified as Owais, was seriously injured.

Besides Srinagar, violence also broke out in Baramulla, Pampore in Pulwama and parts of curfew-bound Anantnag, leaving 25 people injured, including an assistant sub-inspector who was hit by a stone on his head. 

Police said the mobs also pelted stones on police stations in the towns of Pattan and Pampore. 

IHK has been engulfed in violent protests and curfews following the killing of Muslim youths last month, allegedly by the firing of Indian security forces.

Protesters set ablaze a government vehicle in uptown Srinagar and damaged over three dozen vehicles at a number of places.

Chairman of the moderate faction of the All-Parties Hurriyat Conference Mirwaiz Umer Farooq staged a demo in downtown Srinagar.

Later, Mirwaiz led a march around various areas of Srinagar. He was later put under house arrest again.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## moha199

warlock said:


> All those who need freedom should be freed from their lives!
> Kashmir is Indian territory... those who dont want to live in India can very well go to Pakistan!



there you go another fundamentlist and radical here


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## moha199

javaman said:


> i also heard that ,everything can be given to them except freedom.i was talking abt those who are shouting ,it's not a worry.soon they will be sent to their corners.rest of them are ready to live with india.
> it has no link with any other nation



i has all the links with Pakistan since you treat them wrong and they chose the wrong path and become terrorist and also creat problems for Pakistan. Indian situation matters the same way Pakistan's peace matters. So it's better for India to get a hold on situation and do the voting allow those poor souls to vote and pick their way of living!

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## dabong1

Indian army soldiers have marched through Srinagar, the capital of Indian-administered Kashmir, in a show of force to help quell street protests.

A curfew is being strictly enforced in parts of the Kashmir Valley after a wave of violence between protesters and police over the past month.

Police and paramilitaries have been deployed in Srinagar and several towns are under curfew.

*Some 14 civilians have died in clashes with security forces since June.*

Many of the deaths have been blamed on the paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF).

"We are out to give support to the state machinery. We are ready to move anywhere, anytime," the Associated Press news agency quoted army spokesman Col Vineet Sood as saying.

A defence spokesman, Lt Col JS Brar, told the BBC that the army had conducted "a flag march" on the outskirts of Srinagar city, particularly on the road leading to the airport.

Lt Col Brar said the army had not been deployed anywhere in the city.

The state government sought the army's help on Tuesday evening after three civilians were killed in police firing, the BBC's Altaf Hussain in Srinagar reports.

The federal government has yet to decide whether to deploy the army in Kashmir.


A curfew has been imposed in Srinagar and is being strictly enforced by the police and paramilitaries who are deployed in strength, our correspondent says.

The curfew in Anantnag has now been in place for eight consecutive days - since three people were killed by police there last week - and there is no sign of the tension diminishing, he says.

Most of the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley has either been under a curfew or shut down for weeks because of protests over the killing of civilians by police and paramilitary forces.

Chief Minister Omar Abdullah has defended the security forces, saying they could not be expected constantly to show restraint when they were so often pelted with stones.

The killings of civilian protesters, most of them teenagers, have angered many in the valley.

*One newspaper headline described 2010 as the "year of teenage killings" in Kashmir.*

Even the pro-India People's Democratic Party (PDP) has accused the government of declaring war on its own people, our correspondent reports.

Hundreds of thousands of troops are based in Kashmir to fight a two-decade insurgency against Indian rule. 
BBC News - Indian army marches through Srinagar streets

*Shame on the indian occuaption forces..........unarmed teenagers get shot for demonstrating and then the indians wonder the kashmiris turn to the gun.*

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## Join

*Atlast the Army is back In Sri nagar*


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## GUNNER

SRINAGAR, India, July 7, 2010 (AFP) - Indian army soldiers joined police and paramilitary troops enforcing a curfew across much of Kashmir Wednesday, in a bid to quell violent protests in the insurgency-hit region.

The curfew was imposed Tuesday after two men and one woman died when security personnel opened fire to contain angry separatist demonstrations that have been fuelled by the deaths of several protesters over the past month.

Curfew orders have been widely ignored in recent days, and the presence of the Indian army was seen as a show of force designed to end the increasingly violent protests.
"We have conducted flag marches through the streets of Srinagar," Indian army spokesman J.S. Brar told AFP.

Military trucks and jeeps carrying soldiers in full battle-gear passed through tense and empty roads of Srinagar as police and paramilitary forces dotted the streets.

Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian Kashmir, has been the focus of protests since June 11, when a 17-year-old student died from a police tear-gas shell. The three deaths on Tuesday also occurred in Srinagar.

The recent demonstrations are the biggest since 2008 when violent protests killed over 40 people. For the first time in years the army has been called in to quell protests in Srinagar.

"In order to save human lives we had to request the army's help," senior state minister Ali Mohammed Sagar said. 

The army's deployment annoyed separatist politicians fighting to end Indian rule in the scenic Himalayan region.

"Unfortunately, the army has always been India's first and last resort in handling Kashmir," top separatist Mirwaiz Umar Farooq said in a statement.

"It's ever-increasing presence in the state has been with the intention of consolidating its control over the territory," he said. 

Indian police and paramilitary forces, who have been struggling to control the wave of protests in the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley, have been accused of killing 15 civilians in less than a month.

Each death has sparked a new cycle of violence despite appeals for calm from the state's Chief Minister Omar Abdullah.

Journalists and photographers were not allowed to move out on the streets of Srinagar as officials cancelled their curfew passes.
The cabinet committee on security, chaired by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, met in New Delhi to discuss the surge of tension in Kashmir, and Home Secretary G.K. Pillai flew to the region to assess law and order.

Pillai arrived in Srinagar along with Director General of Military Operations Lieutenant General A.M. Verma and held meetings with state officials, including Abdullah.

Police said Srinagar and six other towns were under strict curfew.

The insurgency against New Delhi's rule over Kashmir has claimed tens of thousands of lives.

Despite the curfew, Kashmiris crowded some mosques in downtown Srinagar shouting: "We want freedom." Loudhailers at the mosques carried the call through the streets breaking the silence of empty dark streets.


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## EjazR

Well its unfortunate but it looks more like a panic knee-jerk reaction. The Army should not be in population centers because of just riots and stone pelting crowds. The Indian army has traditionally always been out of population centers and only called in for brief periods during the peak of militancy. According to some reports the army is not deploying in the city but just staging a march. So hopefully,

The important thing is to wrap up the initial fake encounter killing inquiries in Machil and show to the people that the guilty will be punished.


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## EjazR

*The Hindu : Front Page : Srinagar Army deployment driven by panic?*

*Poor crowd control training leading to fatalities in Kashmir urban clashes every summer, say experts*

NEW DELHI:Early in the morning, half a company of soldiers from the Army's Srinagar-based 31 sub-area command rode from the cantonment to the airport. In the afternoon, the troops returned, this time driving through tense inner-city neighbourhoods.

Wednesday was the first day in 17 years that the Indian Army had been ordered out to assist civilian authority in Srinagar &#8212; but, ironically enough, there were fewer military vehicles on the city's main highways than are seen on normal days. No actual Army deployment has taken place in the city and, Defence Ministry sources told TheHindu, none is planned: the Srinagar-based XV corps has instructions only to stand by in the event of a crisis.

The Jammu and Kashmir government called for military aid after three weeks of bruising urban violence, which broke out on June 11. Four people were shot dead by police and Central Reserve Police Force personnel on Tuesday, bringing the fatalities in the recent violence to 15. Police say six other civilians were killed in clashes earlier this summer, as well as in incidents linked to clashes.

The last time the Army was out on Srinagar's streets was in April 1993, when elements of the Jammu and Kashmir Police mutinied. Later, that October, the Army was called into action after jihadists occupied Hazratbal, a revered shrine that houses a relic reputed to be a hair from the beard of Prophet Muhammad. In 1999, troops were called in briefly for assistance in an attempt to rescue officials trapped in a terrorist assault on the headquarters of the Jammu and Kashmir's Police crack counter-terrorism force, the Special Operations Group.

Never, however, has the Army been asked to assist in urban crowd control in Kashmir's cities &#8212; and many experts are asking if this summer's clashes, appalling as their toll has been, constitute the kind of crisis that justifies calling out troops.

Figures published by the Union Home Ministry's National Crime Records Bureau suggest panic, instead of a calm appraisal, may have driven the decision to call in the Army: the clashes on Srinagar's streets are like a long-running fever, not an emergency that needs surgical intervention.

In 2003, the year the People's Democratic Party-Congress alliance government took office, six people were killed in 47 incidents involving the use of lethal force by police. Thirteen civilians were killed in 2004, Chief Minister Mufti Mohammad Saeed's full first year in office. Police are recorded as having opened fire on 123 occasions.

The next year, though, fatalities in police firing rose sharply to 50. That September, the State government withdrew Border Security Force units committed to counter-insurgency operations in Srinagar, and replaced them by the Central Reserve Police Force, in an effort to contain killings of civilians.

In 2006, the year Chief Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad took office, there were no civilian fatalities caused by police. Even though Srinagar saw some urban violence that summer, in the course of protests against a prostitution racket in which politicians were implicated, there was little bloodshed.

But the next year eight civilians were killed in 47 instances of police firing.

Fatalities rose sharply in 2008 &#8212; a year when large-scale protests against the grant of land-use rights to Shri Amarnath Shrine Board tore apart Jammu and Kashmir. The State government reported 43 deaths and 317 injuries in 379 incidents involving use of lethal force by police.

Data is not yet available for 2009, but a senior police official told TheHinduthat more than 15 civilians had been killed in police firing last summer too.

*National problem*

*Fatalities caused by police firing have been far fewer in Jammu and Kashmir than in many other States less threatened by large-scale protests. Police in Uttar Pradesh killed 104 civilians and injured 145 in 608 incidents of police firing in 2008. Maharashtra reported 47 civilian deaths in 89 incidents of police firing.*

*Police in several States, the data shows, are more likely than their Jammu and Kashmir counterparts to open fire to kill. In 2007, 30 civilians were killed in Andhra Pradesh in 45 incidents of police firing; eight died in Jammu and Kashmir in 47 incidents. Back in 2006, the Andhra Pradesh police killed 72 civilians in 79 incidents of firing, while 138 Chhattisgarh residents were shot dead in 213 incidents.*

Part of the problem, experts say, lies in deteriorating riot-control skills. &#8220;Indian police forces,&#8221; notes the New Delhi-based Institute for Conflict Management's Ajai Sahni, &#8220;used to be internationally regarded for their crowd control skills. Police managing agitations in Punjab or Assam quite routinely dispersed crowds of tens of thousands of people without opening fire.&#8221;

&#8220;The fact that police forces across the country are using lethal force to disperse a few hundred people throwing stones,&#8221; Mr. Sahni argues, &#8220;shows something has gone badly wrong.&#8221;

Army sources said the Jammu and Kashmir government had been told troops were untrained in riot control duties, and would be unable to assist in crowd control. &#8220;We were told our presence was intended to be demonstrative,&#8221; a senior officer said, &#8220;and that we would not be drawn into riot-related duties.&#8221;


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## S_O_C_O_M

*'Demoralised&#8217; Indian forces in Kashmir​*

Despite the continued employment of various methods of state terrorism on the freedom fighters and the innocent protesters in the occupied Kashmir, Indian armed forces have been demoralised in crushing the war of liberation. 

In the Indian-held Kashmir, since 1947, Indian military troops have been using barbaric tactics of extra-judicial killings, burning the houses, torture etc. to suppress the genuine freedom movement of the Kashmiris. *Last year, discovery of nearly 1000 graves of the unmarked Muslims in the Indian-held Kashmir showed another evidence of Indian military terrorism. Recently, more such graves have been discovered. Reports suggest that these Muslims were tortured to deaths by the Indian army during custody.*  

*In fact, under the cover of various anti-terrorim laws of the country, Indian armed forces have committed multiple brutal crimes such as encounter killings, illegal custody, torture, forced confession, rape of women, corruption, robbing the houses, kidnappings etc. *

The fact of the matter is that when Kashmiri people lost faith in the international community, which persisted in ignoring their liberation and when it became obvious that the Indian occupying forces would not vacate the controlled areas through political means, the peoples had no choice but to resort to armed struggle which was actually intensified in 1989. 

In fact, present different war between the Indian occupying forces and the Kashmiri freedom fighters is simply a &#8216;clash of wills&#8217; between two entities. Military thinkers agree that although the physical force will determine the type and scale of war, yet it is the &#8216;will to fight&#8217; or &#8216;moral force&#8217; that determines the outcome of war. Clausewitz puts it this way, &#8220;One might say that the physical force seems little more than the wooden hilt, while moral factors are the precious metal, the real weapon&#8221; 

In his book, &#8220;Fighting Power: German and U.S. Army Performance, 1939-1945&#8221;, Creveld identifies the elements of moral force, whom he calls &#8220;fighting power, the willingness to fight and the readiness, if necessary, to die.&#8221; The greater these elements, the less vulnerable an armed force will be to demoralisation. Moral force, then, is the crucial factor in determining the combat power of any belligerent. 

The ongoing different war between the Indian state terrorists and the Kashmiri people has proved without any doubt that such elements like &#8216;will to fight&#8217; and &#8216;moral force&#8217; have been more noted in the latter who have exerted psychological impact of causing fear, shock, mental depression and stress, resulting in demoralisation of the Indian military and paramilitary troops. 

In this regard, numerous cases of suicides among Indian troops&#65533;opening fire on their colleagues and several other tense reactions have been reported in respect of Indian forces in the controlled territories of Kashmir.

In the recent past, Lt. Col. Pankaj Jha shot himself with a service revolver, while Maj Sobha Rani, Capt Sunit Kohli, Lt Sushmita Chatterjee and a number of other officers of the Indian army also did the same in one or the other way. 

Indian defence analysts and psychologists have indicated various causes of suicides and fratricides, found in the Indian military, stationed in the Jummu and Kashmir. They have attributed these trends to &#8220;continuous work under extreme hostile conditions, perpetual threat to life, absence of ideal living conditions, lack of recreational avenues, and of course; the home sickness due to long separation from families.&#8221; 

While other experts have pointed out that the growing stress in the Indian armed forces is owing to &#8220;low morale, bad service conditions, lack of adequate home leave, unattractive pay and a communication gap with superiors.&#8221; 

Retired Maj Gen Afsar Karim, who has fought three wars, remarks, &#8220;The stress may be high among soldiers because of lack of leave.&#8221; He further explains, &#8220;The army is involved in a tough long running internal security environment. There is lack of rest&#8230;soldiers get angry when they are denied leave and their officers themselves take time off. It triggers a reaction, while they are well armed and they take their own lives&#8221; or those of their colleagues. 

Another Indian military analyst reveals, &#8220;then there is the question of what many say is low pay&#8230;starting salaries in many jobs in middle-class of India are double that of a new soldier, and for many of them, the army no longer holds out the promise of a good life.&#8221; 

According to the Indian Col SK Sakhuja, &#8220;soldiers kill each other when one of them perceives that they are being harassed by superiors or when they have heated arguments among themselves.&#8221; 

An Indian parliamentary panel had indicated that the military establishment was not taking reports of suicides and fratricides seriously. The Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence, in its 31st report on &#8220;Stress management in the armed forces&#8221;, stated that 635 suicides of soldiers were reported between 2003 and 2007. In addition, 67 fratricidal killings had occurred. 

The committee further said that the &#8220;alarming trend of suicides and fratricidal killings in the armed forces is attributable to increased stress environment leading to psychological imbalance in the soldiers&#8221;. 

However, with the rise in the cases of suicide and fratricide in the Indian armed forces parliament was informed in 2009. In this connection, Defence Minister A.K. Antony revealed in a written reply in the Lok Sabha that of these, there were 48 cases of suicide and one of fratricide in the three services&#65533;41 suicides were reported from the Indian Army, six from the Indian Air Force, and one from the Indian Navy. He further disclosed that overall, there had been a staggering 495 cases of suicide and 25 cases of fratricide in the armed forces over the past four year. Of these, 154 suicides and 13 fratricides occurred in 2006, 142 suicides and seven fratricides occurred in 2007 and 151 suicides and four fratricides occurred in 2008. Of the total cases, 412 suicides and 24 fratricides were reported from the army, 76 suicides and one fratricide were reported from the air forces and seven suicides were reported from the navy. 

Nevertheless, India has also hired the services of counselors, and stationed psychiatrists close to its troops especially in the occupied Kashmir in order to combat stress that has driven many soldiers to kill themselves or fellow soldiers. Director General Medical Sciences Lt. Gen. N.K. Parmar indicated, &#8220;Sixty psychiatrists have been trained and are working in close coordination with the troops&#8230;if there are any signs of stress, this will immediately be brought to the commanding officer&#8217;s notice.&#8221; 

Nonetheless, various security agencies of India, working in the Indian-held Kashmir have now not only engaged counselors and psychologists to combat stress among troops but have also found cure in meditation, music, exercises and yoga&#65533;all used as techniques against stress and mental disorder. 

No doubt, in any conflict zone, the cases of mental depression and stress are common phenomena, but in case of the controlled Kashmir, the trend has increased. It is because of this fact that that Indian armed forces have been so demoralised by fighting with the freedom fighters that either they commit suicide or kill their own colleagues and seniors. They completely lack &#8216;will to fight&#8217; or &#8216;moral force.&#8217; 

Sajjad Shaukat writes on international affairs and is author of the book: US vs Islamic Militants, Invisible Balance of Power: Dangerous Shift in International Relations. Email: sajjad_logic@yahoo.com

Kashmir Watch :: In-depth coverage on Kashmir conflict


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## brahmastra

again an article from anti India website.



> Last year, discovery of nearly 1000 graves of the unmarked Muslims in the Indian-held Kashmir showed another evidence of Indian military terrorism.



how do you know they were muslims?

even if couple of people go missing then kasmir goes unrest, just emagine what happen if 1000 people go missing.

But you know what,they could be poor foreign soldiers whom their country did not accepted even after their death in war because they were declared mujahid from their country.

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## IBRIS

Another nonsense from Sajjad Shaukat....Same crap different day, 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/64749-indian-exposure-self-destruction.html#post981838


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## IBRIS

Read this more nonesense From Sajjad

Sajjad Shaukat, Schema-Root news


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## karan.1970

Exploitation of Kashmiri resources must stop; Pak wrong policies forcing people to be pro India, said Kashmiri leaders in a seminar held in Luton, England.
05 July 2010

Written by Dr Shabir Choudhry

The seminar tilted Neelam Jhelum Hydroelectric Project was organised by Kashmir National Party in Luton on 4 July, in which Kashmiris and Pakistanis representing different view points took part. All the speakers expressed their serious concerns about the exploitation of natural resources of Jammu and Kashmir, and demanded that this process must stop.

The Kashmiri leaders said India and Pakistan while using our resources must keep in mind that these resources belong to people of Jammu and Kashmir. If people of Jammu and Kashmir do not benefit from the development projects then that would be considered as plundering and looting of our natural resources. 

The seminar was chaired by Abbas Butt, who gave background details to the seminar and how Kashmiri resources were exploited. He said KNP is not anti Pakistan or anti India. We have always taken pro people and pro Kashmir actions, and feel proud that we are true nationalists who want to promote liberal and secular politics. We want to defend rights of people of Jammu and Kashmir and promote peace and better understanding among all the ethnic groups living in South Asia. 

KNP Chairman said: we can choose friends but we cannot choose or change our geography. We all have to live in South Asia, and it is in the interest of all that we learn to live in peace and share our resources for the betterment of people of this region. If policy of loot and plunder continues that will prove disastrous not for only people of Jammu and Kashmir but also for the entire region, as it will provide oxygen to those forces who want to spread communalism, extremism and hatred.

Abbas Butt said, We appreciate Pakistans water and energy requirements and want to help them in this regard as well; but they should learn to share resources and not to exploit us by behaving like an imperial power. They need to acknowledge that these resources belong to the people of Jammu and Kashmir and people of the area must benefit from this.

Dr Shabir Choudhry in his keynote speech said, Water is fundamental to human survival, and many countries have serious shortage of water and energy, yet demand is on increase. Lack of sufficient clean and useable freshwater has adverse impact on economy and prosperity of many countries. Because of this scarcity, water has taken a strategic role for many states; and could be cause of conflicts in future. He said many experts believe future wars will be fought over water.

He said, Water is natural resources of Jammu and Kashmir, but it was India and Pakistan who decided how to use our water in Indus Water Treaty of 1960. We cannot even use water according to our wishes or requirements. In order to appease his political masters, puppet Prime Minister of Pakistani Administered Kashmir, Sikandar Hayat told a seminar on March 6, 2003 The freedom fighters of Kashmir are in reality fighting for Pakistan's water security and have prevented India from constructing a dam on the Wular Barrage.

Dr Shabir Choudhry said: In line with its past policies, Islamabad has started a mega project in its colony, known as Azad Kashmir. They did not even care to consult, get permission, or have a formal agreement with the rulers of this territory. Neelam Jhelum Hydroelectric Project is located near Muzaffarabad, capital of Pakistani Administered Kashmir, and it aims to dig a tunnel and divert water of Neelam River which will generate 969 MW of electricity annually. 

He said, The project will benefit Pakistan, but local people will not benefit from it in any form or shape. However, there will be serious economic and environmental consequences for the local people; and their future generations will face very serious economic and environmental problems. Our first priority is to safeguard interest of our people and unfortunately we have to be apologetic over this because of fear of being declared anti Pakistan. He said, Love of country is part of our faith and we will continue to oppose those who colonise us and loot and plunder our resources.

Professor Rafiq Bhatti who is a senior leader of UKPNP and have travelled from Mirpur said, KNP leadership should be congratulated for arranging this seminar on a topic which will have disastrous impact on people and environment of the area. He said, Many people only deal with current issues, but thinking people also have eyes set on events of future, because we have to plan our future today. We have to ensure what we do today will not be detrimental to the interests of our future generations. Our loyalty should be with our nation. It is our duty to inform our people what is being done to their economy and how our resources are being exploited.

He said, Both India and Pakistan are plundering resources of our State, and who ever speak out for rights of the people of Jammu and Kashmir is declared as anti Pakistan. He said, It is ironic that Sind Assembly can pass a resolution against construction of Kala Bagh Dam even though that is to benefit Pakistan; and no one call them anti Pakistan. He said, If economic matters are not resolved appropriately then people could be forced to think of alternatives which could lead to extremism and violence.

Javed Shah, representing JKLF, said: This is a trivial matter and I advise the KNP leaders not to waste time on the dam and water issues. They should use their time and resources on positive things.

Hussain Suharwardi Shaheed, a leader of Muslim Conference said people of Azad Kashmir have given sacrifices for Pakistan and we will not hesitate to do the same again. But on the issue of construction of mega dams like Neelam Jhelum Project Government of Pakistan should consult us and give us appropriate royalty for this. He said all people uprooted because of these development projects should be compensated. Our party has always supported Pakistan and cared for interests of Pakistan, but we should not be treated unfairly. 

Nawaz Majid, Secretary General of KNP British Zone said: Because of wrong policies of Pakistan, people of Pakistani Administered Kashmir are having ideological changes. At one time 100% people on this side of the LOC opposed accession to India, but on my recent visit to *** I have met people who openly said, If given only two choices they will opt for India, as they have better system and more facilities than what could be available on this side.

He said, Apart from Pakistani dam on River Neelam, India is also constructing a dam known as Kishanganga Hydro Electrical project. These both projects will surely have very serious impact on environment of the area, not to mention its negative impact on wildlife and beauty of the region which is major source of tourism.

Asif Masood Choudhry who represented NSF, said: KNP leadership should be congratulated for holding a seminar on this important topic which will affect future of our generations. He said the way the Pakistani authorities have started this project clearly shows they do not care about Kashmiri laws or interests of the local people and danger to the wildlife. They have just started construction without any contract with the Azad Kashmir Government; and this clearly shows what kind of independence this government has.

He said: NSF has history of opposing Pakistani occupation and Pakistani policies In Azad Kashmir, and we will continue to do that. He said we will support the KNP leadership in whatever steps they might take to oppose this project which is unjust and exploits our resources.

Master Nisar, a political activist of Muslim Conference said: His party has always supported accession to Pakistan and we have always given sacrifices for the cause of Pakistan. He said Pakistan has serious water and energy needs, and during this difficult time we need to help Pakistan. I am first Pakistani then a Kashmiri. To me Pakistan and Kashmir are same.

Raja Yasin, a political activist of Muslim Conference said: We support Kashmirs accession to Pakistan, but it does not mean that we should not ask for our legitimate rights. We do care for Pakistans water requirements, but we should get royalty for this. Pakistan must have a contract with Azad Kashmir government, and must give compensation to the affected people.

Usman Kiani, President of UKPNP said: We are not Pakistanis; even constitution of Pakistan does not regard us as Pakistanis. We must not live in fantasy world. I am a nationalist Kashmiri. I am a Kashmiri first and Kashmir last. UKPNP have worked together with the leadership of KNP and we have shared platforms in Geneva and in many other places. I want to assure the KNP leaders that we will support them in this campaign, because it is in the national interest of our country.

Maqsood Hussain Shah, author and political activist said: we appreciate Pakistans water requirements but we also have some genuine requirements. If they build this dam it will affect our lives and lives of our future generations. It will also affect lives of many other species. Pakistan must consult government of Azad Kashmir. We should oppose Neelam Jhelum hydro Project and if need be we should contact the UN and other international bodies. He said we people of Kashmir must be part of any talks on Kashmir. It is not for India and Pakistan to decide our future. He emphasised the need of unity that we could have some say in the future talks on Kashmir. 

Ejaz Pracha, a Pakistani activist said: You people have some genuine issues. We have no leadership in Pakistan to protect interests of Pakistan; and you people have no leadership to protect your interests. My advice to you is to get maximum unity and only then you can protect rights and interests of your people.

Nazam Bhatti, President of KNP in his concluding remarks said: We are true nationalist and it is our duty to protect interests of people of Jammu and Kashmir; and we must not be apologetic over this. We must be steadfast in our resolve and totally ignore what critics say about us. Some people have a role to criticise us and deter us from doing our national duty.
He said, those who have interest of people of Jammu and Kashmir close to their hearts, to them construction of this dam is very serious matter because it is economic and environment disaster. We have right to use our resources according to our requirements. Any project which is against our wishes and against our requirements must be opposed; and if necessary destroyed


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## S_O_C_O_M

*3 more die in Kashmir violence after teen's body found​*
From Mukhtar Ahmad, CNN
July 6, 2010 1:37 p.m. EDT

*STORY HIGHLIGHTS*
-Kashmiris clash with Indian security forces
-Skirmishes erupt after discovery of teenager's body
-Three more die in daylong violence in Srinagar; 14 have died in unrest since June
-Muslim-majority region's residents accuse Indian troops of excessive force

Srinagar, India (CNN) -- The death of a teenager whose body was fished from a stream triggered hours of violence Tuesday in Indian-administered Kashmir that also killed three other people, police said.

Residents in the Gangbugh area of Srinagar, the summer capital of India's Jammu and Kashmir state, said the 17-year-old was chased by security forces during protests on Monday and then drowned.

Divers discovered the body Tuesday morning, residents said, sparking fresh protests, which quickly turned into violent clashes between stone-throwing protesters and Indian police.

Security forces fired warning shots and tear gas and used batons to restore order. A woman was hit in the chest by a stray police bullet and later died at a local hospital, senior police officer Farooq Ahmad said. Also among the dead was a 15-year-old boy.

Tuesday evening, Srinagar was under curfew. 

"This decision has been taken as a precautionary measure and in view of the apprehension of breach of peace and tranquillity and damage to life and property," the district magistrate said in a statement.

Kashmir's latest wave of unrest began in late June and has left 14 people dead, many of them youths. The violence has angered residents of the restive Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley, who say *Indian troops, stationed there to quell a two-decade insurgency, are using unnecessary force*.

3 more die in Kashmir violence after teen's body found - CNN.com


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## billi

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *3 more die in Kashmir violence after teen's body found​*
> From Mukhtar Ahmad, CNN
> July 6, 2010 1:37 p.m. EDT
> 
> *STORY HIGHLIGHTS*
> -Kashmiris clash with Indian security forces
> -Skirmishes erupt after discovery of teenager's body
> -Three more die in daylong violence in Srinagar; 14 have died in unrest since June
> -Muslim-majority region's residents accuse Indian troops of excessive force
> 
> Srinagar, India (CNN) -- The death of a teenager whose body was fished from a stream triggered hours of violence Tuesday in Indian-administered Kashmir that also killed three other people, police said.
> 
> Residents in the Gangbugh area of Srinagar, the summer capital of India's Jammu and Kashmir state, said the 17-year-old was chased by security forces during protests on Monday and then drowned.
> 
> Divers discovered the body Tuesday morning, residents said, sparking fresh protests, which quickly turned into violent clashes between stone-throwing protesters and Indian police.
> 
> Security forces fired warning shots and tear gas and used batons to restore order. A woman was hit in the chest by a stray police bullet and later died at a local hospital, senior police officer Farooq Ahmad said. Also among the dead was a 15-year-old boy.
> 
> Tuesday evening, Srinagar was under curfew.
> 
> "This decision has been taken as a precautionary measure and in view of the apprehension of breach of peace and tranquillity and damage to life and property," the district magistrate said in a statement.
> 
> Kashmir's latest wave of unrest began in late June and has left 14 people dead, many of them youths. The violence has angered residents of the restive Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley, who say *Indian troops, stationed there to quell a two-decade insurgency, are using unnecessary force*.
> 
> 3 more die in Kashmir violence after teen's body found - CNN.com



These kashmiris are just trouble makers. They dont realise all the freedom that a democratic India is bringing to them.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Indian army returns to Srinagar​**Bid to end escalating violence with first deployment to Kashmir city in 20 years threatens to raise tensions with Pakistan*​
Jason Burke in Delhi 
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 7 July 2010 19.03 BST 
Article history






Indian army soldiers in an armoured vehicle patrol the streets of Srinagar where 15 people have been killed during anti-India protests. Photograph: Reuters

India deployed its army in Kashmir's summer capital of Srinagar for the first time in nearly 20 years today in an attempt to break an escalating cycle of violence that has killed 15 people and wounded many hundreds.

A long column of armoured military vehicles drove through Srinagar in a show of strength after police failed to control weeks of street protests in the disputed region. The troops repeatedly fired live rounds into crowds of stone-throwing protesters.

"We would like to make [our intervention] as short as possible," Pallam Raju, the minister for defence, told local television. "It is not a situation the army would like to be in."

The move threatens to raise regional tensions ahead of a visit by the Indian foreign minister SM Krishna to Pakistan next week. The hostile neighbours have fought three wars over Kashmir and continue to dispute ownership of the former Himalayan princedom, India's only Muslim majority state. Peace talks have been stalled since the terrorist attacks on Mumbai in November 2008 which Delhi blames on a Pakistani-based militant group.

*An overnight exchange of fire on the border killed two Indian troops and wounded a Pakistani soldier and several villagers, according to reports.*

Indian officials said the army's deployment in Srinagar had been formally requested by Jammu and Kashmir's chief minister, Omar Abdullah.

The last time the army took to the streets of Srinagar was in the early 1990s at the height of the insurgency against Delhi's rule. The city is usually patrolled by local police or paramilitaries from the central reserve police force (CRPF).

"It remains to be seen if it will have a sufficient psychological impact to stop the protests," said Professor Gul Mohammed Wani of Kashmir university. "I don't think the problem will diminish, however. It is primarily a question of politics and there is no political movement at all at the moment."

Human rights groups accuse the paramilitaries of being responsible for most of the recent deaths. But Prabhakar Tripathi, a CRPF spokesman, said: "We are using maximum restraint. We only ever fire in a few cases and in self defence."

While locals say the protests are spontaneous, the Indian government has blamed Lashkar-e-Taiba, the Pakistan-based militant group accused of carrying out the Mumbai attacks.

Indian army returns to Srinagar | World news | The Guardian


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Kashmir police investigate Indian soldiers accused of murdering civilians​Troops allegedly killed civilians falsely claiming they were Islamic militants in order to secure combat bonuses​*
Jason Burke in Nadihal 
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 29 June 2010 19.59 BST 
Article history





Police clash with demonstrators in Srinagar. Photograph: Tauseef Mustafa/AFP/Getty Images

Police in Kashmir are investigating a series of incidents in which Indian soldiers are accused of killing civilians who they subsequently claimed were Islamic militants.

In one case, exposed this month, three labourers were allegedly murdered in an attempt to boost the combat record of an Indian army unit whose members were then able to claim bonuses. According to police investigators, the three men were lured to their deaths by local intermediaries paid cash by an army officer. They were executed and buried, and a report was filed claiming they were violent extremists.

In April a 70-year-old beggar was shot dead. Relatives denied army claims that he was a member of a local militant group.

*Last week a case was registered with police involving two porters who the Indian military said had been shot by Pakistani forces across the Line of Control, the de facto border that separates Indian and Pakistani-controlled parts of the disputed state.

But doctors who carried out a postmortem said the men had been shot from close range. Army spokesmen refused to comment on the details of the cases, saying that investigations were underway.*

Ayesha Khan, the mother of Shahzad Ahmad Khan, one of the three labourers killed in April, said: "Those who are responsible should be hanged and we are hopeful of justice."

Local human rights activist Parvez Imroz said he was aware of at least 50 other cases in which non-combatants had disappeared. "This is the tip of the iceberg," he said.

Imroz said that soldiers tackling Islamist militants received bonuses for each kill. "There are vested interests that have developed in the conflict. The army have been given these incentives and so they kill non-combatants," he said.

Khan's uncle, Riaz Ahmed, said: "I want to know how many other boys they have killed like this. They get their promotions to generals or colonels or whatever and we are left with coffins. They make their careers over the bodies of our sons."

The soldiers accused of the three cases have now left Kashmir and a court martial has been ordered while an internal army inquiry continues.

Imroz said he doubted that any of the soldiers would be disciplined. "We have had no instances where the perpetrators [in previous cases] were punished. Whether institutionally or individually there is no accountability," he said.

Sheikh Shauqat, professor of international law at Kashmir University in Srinagar, said the police investigation was unprecedented. "People believed all along that this sort of thing was happening. But for the first time the state police investigated and exposed it. This at last authenticated the people's belief," he said.

The killings have fuelled unrest in Kashmir, India's only Muslim-majority state, which is caught in a cycle of violent demonstrations and police shootings.

Three teenage protesters were killed today in the southern Kashmiri town of Anantnag, bringing the total to 11 killed by police in the last two weeks. As demonstrators took to the streets, authorities declared a curfew and mobile phone services were suspended in north Kashmir.

Most of the casualties among the protesters were a result of shooting by the paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force rather than local officers.

CRPF commanders said their men had been left with no choice but to defend themselves with live ammunition after protesters tried to set fire to their vehicles and bunkers.

The upsurge in public disorder coincides with a series of visits of senior Indian officials to Pakistan. External affairs minister SM Krishna is due to travel to Islamabad next month in an effort to restart peace talks frozen since the attacks by Pakistan-based terrorists in Mumbai in November 2008.

The Indian army today said it had killed five militants who were trying to cross from Pakistan, which considers the Indian portion of Kashmir illegally occupied and has long supported violent separatist extremists in the state. Three soldiers have also been killed in firefights in recent days, an army spokesman added. More than 30 members of the security forces have died this year.

Kashmir police investigate Indian soldiers accused of murdering civilians | World news | The Guardian


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## Areesh

Actually they want to earn some money and fame and to gain all this IOK is the best place.


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## Gene

whats the big deal??
the situation demands so.. Army is deployed to help police & local administration to regain peace.


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## ice_man

Gene said:


> whats the big deal??
> the situation demands so.. Army is deployed to help police & local administration to regain peace.



ya what's the big deal just a handful of OCCUPIED KASHMIRIS died! killed in cold blooded murder by INDIAN police! but why should you care! 

army should walk in clean up the mess & delhi can keep on pointing the fingers left right & center

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## Join

ice_man said:


> ya what's the big deal just a handful of OCCUPIED KASHMIRIS died! killed in cold blooded murder by INDIAN police! but why should you care!
> 
> army should walk in clean up the mess & delhi can keep on pointing the fingers left right & center



Army Is here to maintain law and order.... Army Knows How to deal the situation and Bring peace to the Vally.....


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## javaman

ice_man said:


> ya what's the big deal just a handful of OCCUPIED KASHMIRIS died! killed in cold blooded murder by INDIAN police! but why should you care!
> 
> army should walk in clean up the mess & delhi can keep on pointing the fingers left right & center



national integrity first,then left right

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Areesh

javaman said:


> national integrity first,then left right



What is the national integrity. Making nude and semi nude movies and killing innocents in Kashmir.


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## javaman

Areesh said:


> What is the national integrity. Making nude and semi nude movies and killing innocents in Kashmir.



control man.i dont know y u dragged movies with kashmiris.which nude movie and semi nude movie


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## Avatar

If you really care about Kashmir, why did you give part of it away to China ? 
Just admit it, you cannot manage your own country but you still want to "conquer" India, part by part, an *impossible* dream.


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## Areesh

javaman said:


> we r seeing this frm decades,i don't know when



It took ninety years for Sub continent to take Independence from Britishers after 1857 independence. Kashmiris have been fighting for Independence since 1947.


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## Join

Areesh said:


> Just asking you a question. What is your so called national integrity?



Allow me to answer it for you...

India: A country with More than 100 Languages, thousand different traditions,Different cultures, Different People, But Equally Proud In Calling themselves INDIAN... Thats Integrity

---------- Post added at 01:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:41 PM ----------




Areesh said:


> May be... Unfortunately it isn't a disputed territory unlike IOK.



Dont worry about that.....


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## muhammad asim aslam

indian soldires the murdererx


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## Areesh

Join said:


> Allow me to answer it for you...
> 
> India: A country with More than 100 Languages, thousand different traditions,Different cultures, Different People, But Equally Proud In Calling themselves INDIAN... Thats Integrity
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:41 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Humm so this is the state definition for the so called national integrity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dont worry about that.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No I am not.
Click to expand...


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## Areesh

Avatar said:


> *If you really care about Kashmir, why did you give part of it away to China ?*
> Just admit it, you cannot manage your own country but you still want to "conquer" India, part by part, an *impossible* dream.



Use search function of this forum. 

Thank you.


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## Areesh

Anyways this deployment of Indian army in IOK is good in the sense that we might hear about some hot suicide news in the future.


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## ice_man

INDIA:NATIONAL INTEGRITY=HOLD ON TO DISPUTED LAND NO MATTER WHAT! PEOPLE of the land are target practice!


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## javaman

Areesh said:


> Anyways this deployment of Indian army in IOK is good in the sense that we might hear about some hot suicide news in the future.



suicide attack by ttp


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## Areesh

javaman said:


> suicide attack by ttp



No by the soldiers on their officers.


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## Areesh

javaman said:


> ttp started this first,wat's ur report says



Check your record dear. Indian army has a very good record of minor soldiers killing the higher officers.


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## Avatar

Areesh said:


> Anyways this deployment of Indian army in IOK is good in the sense that we might hear about some hot suicide news in the future.



Well, 
1) google for IoK. 
2) google for P-o-K. (without -)

Say google is a RAW/CIA/MOSSAD conspiracy.


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## Guynextdoor

Areesh said:


> It took ninety years for Sub continent to take Independence from Britishers after 1857 independence. Kashmiris have been fighting for Independence since 1947.


Britisher's weren't ready to see as many people killed as we are ready to. India's integrity is uncompromisable.


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## Patriot

&#8220;India&#8221; is as much a country as the Equator


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Kashmir streets under army lockdown to end protest​*
By AIJAZ HUSSAIN (AP)  57 minutes ago

SRINAGAR, India  Indian-controlled Kashmir was under lockdown Thursday as tens of thousands of soldiers patrolled the streets to enforce a rigid curfew aimed at ending weeks of violent anti-government protests.

Shops and schools were closed, streets ringed with barbed wire and roadblocks were deserted, the region's nearly 60 newspapers were unable to publish and even residents with special curfew passes were barred from going outside.

Despite the curfew, the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, an umbrella organization of separatist groups, issued a statement calling for more protests: "Military measures will in no way be able to break the will of the people."

The tension in this restive Himalayan region  divided between India and Pakistan  was reminiscent of the late 1980s, when protests against Indian rule sparked an armed conflict that eventually killed more than 68,000 people, mostly civilians.

Residents say security forces have killed 15 people in the recent protests. The government's controversial decision to send the army was intended to prevent the protests from spiralling out of control and igniting another insurgency.

"The army will be deployed as long as it is necessary, but I sincerely hope it will not be necessary for too long," Indian Home Minister Palaniappan Chidambaram said.

He appealed to residents to observe the curfew and to parents to keep their teenage sons  who have been at the forefront of some of the violent protests  indoors.

"It is important that people do not come into the street and start stone pelting," he said Thursday afternoon.

Col. Vineet Sood, an Indian army spokesman, said the soldiers were giving support to the local forces. "We are ready to move anywhere, anytime," he said.

However, there were risks that using the army  instead of the police and paramilitary troops that usually deal with civil unrest  could further inflame residents, who accuse the military of being a brutal occupying force.

"The army has always been India's first and last resort in handling Kashmir," Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, a key separatist leader, said in a statement. "Its ever-increasing presence in the state, whether in the barracks or on the streets, has been intended to consolidate its control over the territory and to intimidate people."

The Indian army is ubiquitous in Kashmir, but its operations are usually aimed at combating insurgents and it has not been used in crowd control since major street protests in 1990.

The volatile region is claimed in its entirety by both India and Pakistan, and the rival nuclear powers have fought two wars over the territory. India regularly accuses Pakistan of sending insurgents over the heavily militarized frontier to stir trouble and has blamed the recent protests on Pakistani-based militants bent on destabilizing India, a charge Pakistan denies.

Kashmiri separatists are demanding independence from Hindu-majority India or a merger with Muslim-majority Pakistan.

Even with the curfew in force, hundreds of doctors and other employees and at the S.K. Institute of Medical Sciences, a government hospital in the main city of Srinagar, held a protest inside their compound, denouncing the restrictions and chanting anti-India slogans. Police and paramilitary troops later dispersed them, said a police officer, who spoke on condition of anonymity citing department policy.

*On Wednesday night, thousands of protesters defied the restrictions for a few hours and held street protests. Pro-independence songs rang out overnight from the public address systems of several mosques, as they had in the months before the insurgency broke out two decades ago. *Troops did not intervene and no clashes broke out.

With authorities canceling curfew passes given to journalists, none of nearly 60 newspapers published from Srinagar hit the stands Thursday. Many reporters spent the night in their offices.

"Not allowing media persons to move and cover the situation is tantamount to banning the media," the Press Guild of Kashmir said, denouncing "curbs and the use of force against media persons."

Copyright © 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

The Associated Press: Kashmir streets under army lockdown to end protest


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## ChinaChina

india s tianmen square?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*The New Kashmir Anger​*
By Krishna Pokharel

Over the centuries, Kashmir, nestled high in the Himalayas of the Indian Subcontinent, has nurtured several religions, dynasties and cultures. Since 1947, when India and Pakistan were carved out of erstwhile British India, the Kashmir valley has been a flashpoint for competing Indian and Pakistani nationalism, ambitious Kashmiri politicians and, since the late 1980s, religiously-motivated militants.

The huge number of people who have died in Kashmir since the insurgency began &#8211; at least 60,000 by one estimate &#8211; can make it difficult to appreciate the sanctity and value of each individual life that was lost.

The truth in Kashmir is elusive. Each attack, each act of violence, is recounted in at least three different versions. The militants say one thing. The government says something else. And average people have their own view.

Tensions are once again on the rise with a fresh spate of clashes between the security forces and stone-throwing Kashmiris. On Wednesday, most parts of Kashmir remained under curfew after the death of at least three protesters in Srinagar earlier this week. They were gunned down by security forces who were trying to quell anti-government demonstrations.

India Real Time spoke with Mohammad Ashraf Wani, who is not only a Kashmir scholar with three decades of experience studying the region, but a Kashmir native who has a keen sense of how locals feel living in the tinderbox.

The 55-year-old, a history professor at the University of Kashmir in Srinagar, says the latest street demonstrations are different from the violent militancy that erupted in 1989. Now, the discontent is largely about economics and not religion, he says, and it isn&#8217;t militants, for the most part, who are unleashing their anger. &#8220;This time it&#8217;s common people, generally youth,&#8221; Mr. Wani says. &#8220;This time there is no intervention of radical, gun-toting politics.&#8221;

Changing demographics are playing a big part in the shift. With increasing literacy, young people are &#8220;more conscious of their political rights,&#8221; he says. &#8220;Combine that with unemployment, which is becoming a serious problem in Kashmir. These two factors have had the pot boiling.&#8221;

The situation on the ground in Srinagar is tense. The Army has been deployed in the streets, aiding the state police and paramilitary forces, Press Trust of India reported Wednesday. Col. Vineet Sood, a spokesman for the Indian Army in Indian Kashmir, told India Real Time, &#8220;We are trying to instill confidence in people and send strong message to the inimical elements to resist from violence.&#8221;

The wounds in Kashmir trace back to 1947, when the ruler of the mostly-Muslim region decided to make it part of India during Partition. Pakistan has never accepted that outcome, but neither have many locals, he says. &#8220;Kashmiris have been denied their right to determine their own future,&#8221; Mr.Wani says.

Mr. Wani&#8217;s suggested course of action to resolve the long-festering Kashmir dispute: &#8220;realistic&#8221; dialogue between the Kashmiri people, India and Pakistan. How can &#8220;realistic&#8221; be defined? &#8220;The Kashmiri people, India and Pakistan need to realize that they cannot be sticking to their thinking of 50 years back,&#8221; he says, adding that many Kashmiris would prefer the creation of an independent Kashmiri state. &#8220;They are neither with India nor with Pakistan.&#8221;

Goodwill between the three parties may not be enough, however. &#8220;I see no hope of peace unless the international community intervenes,&#8221; Mr. Wani says. &#8220;It&#8217;s high time it did because what happens in Kashmir affects the future of the world.&#8221;

As he daily views young Kashmiris taking to streets shouting slogans against India, Mr. Wani remembers his own political past. &#8220;Twenty years back, we were bubbling with enthusiasm and passion for freedom of Kashmir and with age we have calmed down. We are replaced by two generations of Kashmiri youths who are more passionate about these issues,&#8221; Mr. Wani says.

The New Kashmir Anger - India Real Time - WSJ

---------- Post added at 05:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:30 AM ----------




ChinaChina said:


> india s tianmen square?



There have already been many ....

At least 68,000 people dead in Kashmir...


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Kashmiri deaths​*
Dawn Editorial
Thursday, 08 Jul, 2010

The rising number of civilian deaths in Indian-administered Kashmir highlights the failure of Indias policy that has relied on a coercive apparatus instead of political tools to crush the current wave of protests in Srinagar and elsewhere.

So far 15 people have been killed since trouble began in mid-June with the shooting to death of a schoolboy by Indian troops. It is significant that it is the urban areas which are the bastion of the Kashmiri unrest, the protesters being unarmed people. This says a lot about the character of the movement against Indian occupation and belies New Delhis claim that foreign elements are behind the stir. As top Kashmiri leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq said the other day the struggle was indigenous and that these killings will not deter us from pursuing our goal of independence. If only the Indian leadership could grasp this truth.

Regrettably  and it is a measure of the failure of Islamabads diplomacy  the world at large, including lame duck OIC, has taken no notice of the unrest in the valley and of gross violations of human rights there. Fortunately, some human rights bodies, including those in India, keep tabs on the situation and do not fail to draw the worlds attention to the special search and arrest powers which enable the Indian security agencies to suppress the Kashmiri people. Last week, Amnesty International asked the Indian government to hold an inquiry into the civilian deaths and take action both against security personnel and against protesters found involved in rights violations. New Delhi is now reported to be considering modifying if not withdrawing the special powers which the security personnel regularly abuse to deal with Kashmiris.

Force has failed to crush the Kashmiri peoples yearning for freedom. That New Delhi should abandon political means is stupefying. Even the Indian army chief had the good sense to declare that the situation in Kashmir needed a political solution. In a newspaper interview last month, Gen V.K. Singh, while claiming that the army had done its job, said, Now the need is to handle the situation politically. This is coming from the head of an army which has deployed a minimum of half a million troops in the valley to hold the Kashmiri people back.

While the Indo-Pakistan relationship is bogged down in Indias Mumbai obsession, one hopes Pakistans foreign minister will make his Indian counterpart realise, when the two meet on July 15, that an end to the rights violations in the valley will help create an atmosphere conducive to forward movement on normalising Indo-Pakistan relations.

DAWN.COM | Editorial | Kashmiri deaths


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## Ganga

Areesh said:


> It took ninety years for Sub continent to take Independence from Britishers after 1857 independence. *K**ashmiris have been fighting for Independence since 1947.*



I dont think so.If you remember 65 when Pakistan launched operation Gibraltar and send several thousand troublemakers into Indian Kashmir, the locals immediately informed the authorities abt the intruders which led to the total faliure of the operation .If they wanted independence they could have sided with them .Furthermore there were no protests or rallies in Kashmir prior to 1989.


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## civfanatic

Gene said:


> whats the big deal??
> the situation demands so.. Army is deployed to help police & local administration to regain peace.



yeah the peace of graveyard .... Which indian state wants to foist upon us ....


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## Areesh

Ganga said:


> I dont think so.If you remember 65 when Pakistan launched operation Gibraltar and send several thousand troublemakers into Indian Kashmir, *the locals immediately informed the authorities abt the intruders which led to the total faliure of the operation .*If they wanted independence they could have sided with them .Furthermore there were no protests or rallies in Kashmir prior to 1989.



Don't you think you are propagating state propaganda as facts here.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Ganga said:


> ... If you remember 65 when Pakistan launched operation Gibraltar and send several thousand troublemakers into Indian Kashmir, the locals immediately informed the authorities abt the intruders which led to the total faliure of the operation .If they wanted independence they could have sided with them .Furthermore there were no protests or rallies in Kashmir prior to 1989.



How many 'locals informed the IA'? All it takes is a few shepherds here and there to tip off - you cannot extrapolate the sentiments of millions from the fact that a handful of locals might have tipped off the IA.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> There have already been many ....(Tianamen square)
> 
> At least 68,000 people dead in Kashmir...




I will repeat what every Pakistani says when we compare Kashmir and NWFP

Is Bejing considered a disputed area?? If not how does T S compare to Kashmir??

Anyway had the 2 be similar, there would have been a total censorship on the news coming out of J&K.


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## Areesh

Guynextdoor said:


> Britisher's weren't ready to see as many people killed as we are ready to. India's integrity is uncompromisable.



Wow what a logic.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> I will repeat what every Pakistani says when we compare Kashmir and NWFP
> 
> Is Bejing considered a disputed area?? If not how does T S compare to Kashmir??
> 
> Anyway had the 2 be similar, there would have been a total censorship on the news coming out of J&K.



I assumed the comparison to TS was in the context of the military crushing anti-government opposition and killing innocent civilians - the two events are obviously not directly analogous.


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## Ganga

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How many *'locals informed the IA'?* All it takes is a few shepherds here and there to tip off - you cannot extrapolate the sentiments of millions from the fact that a handful of locals might have tipped off the IA.



How many locals helped the intruders?very few if not none.The entire operation was based on the presumption that the locals will help the intruders.Infact so confident were the planners that they did not inform the Pakistani air force abt the plan.Infact there was no back up plan if this op failed.

This showed the confidence they had that the locals would side by them and Gibraltar would be a success.But certainly that was not the case.

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## ChinaChina

karan.1970 said:


> I will repeat what every Pakistani says when we compare Kashmir and NWFP
> 
> Is Bejing considered a disputed area?? If not how does T S compare to Kashmir??
> 
> Anyway had the 2 be similar, there would have been a total censorship on the news coming out of J&K.



all the same u r killing innocent unarmed civilians


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## Areesh

A bit off topic but anyways.
Kunal Kapoor attacked by students in Kashmir


Shooting in Kashmir is never an easy task. Actor Kunal Kapoor experienced that while shooting for Lamhaa in the valley. Kunal is playing a young political leader in the film directed by Rahul Dholakia.
In Lamhaa, there is a scene where Kunal is giving a lecture to the students about Kashmir in a school. The shooting was going on peacefully when all of a sudden a student raised his voice and objected to what Kunal was saying about Kashmir.
Kunal says, "I was saying my lines when suddenly some students said that you are not making sense and everybody joined them. However, there was another group of students who were supporting what I said. This small argument led to a big argument where both groups started arguing with each other."

*He further elaborates, "In the midst of this big argument, I didn't know what to do and I was simply standing. Then suddenly from nowhere a student came and shouted, 'Kashmir ko kya chahiye?' (What does Kashmir want?), and the rest answered in one voice 'Azadi' (freedom).
*When asked if they were able to shoot that sequence on that given day, the actor said, No ways. We had protection from the army, but when this happened they requested us to call it a day. There were more than 400 students who were a part of this big argument and an army guy told us to move from there or someone might just shoot us. He was not referring to students, but that area was very sensitive and we just followed his instructions."

Kunal Kapoor attacked by students in Kashmir


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## Guynextdoor

Patriot said:


> &#8220;India&#8221; is as much a country as the Equator


'Churchill was as much a statesman as my armchair' & moin ansari is as much a historian as my toilet seat (I know where you got that quote from)

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## Guynextdoor

Areesh said:


> Wow what a logic.


Either I can BS or get to the point


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Ganga said:


> How many locals helped the intruders?very few if not none.The entire operation was based on the presumption that the locals will help the intruders.Infact so confident were the planners that they did not inform the Pakistani air force abt the plan.Infact there was no back up plan if this op failed.
> 
> This showed the confidence they had that the locals would side by them and Gibraltar would be a success.But certainly that was not the case.



The operation never got to the point where the infiltrators could spark an insurgency, so arguing 'how many locals helped them' would be premature - they did manage to do that in 1989 though.

But back to the point, again, a shepherd or two tipping off the IA on the presence of suspicious individuals does not lend itself to extrapolating the sentiments of millions.


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## IndianArmy

So, Finally Army had to come... Good Decision Who ever has taken.

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## Tayyab1796

All the indian folks would agree to atleast the fact that Indian state has failed miserably in Kashmir that's y people are agitating and this has been going on for the past 2 decades atleast . No one can say these are just temporary protests .

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## ambidex

Pakistan can day dream and bet upon few losers those who think that India will be black mailed by few frustrated people. Mobs do not have brains, they are anti India for more local issues not for grand Pakistani strategy to have Kashmir in its pocket. India knows the real sincerity behind every anti India slogan shouted in Kashmir. 

Kashmir may be Muslim majority but India is not a typical Muslim nation. The message is clear from forces, If mob will keep pelting stones, the forces will keep pressing the trigger. when the mob kept doing the same the army was called in. The marry will go around and around, who will stop it? Pakistan as a saviour or just as an outsider apple of discord ?


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## owcc

Lets be realistic let the protests be temporary or permanent India will not cede an inch of its territory or neither will Pakistan.Thats a simple fact to understand such be the case make loc the border and if thats no acceptable to Pakistan I seriously dont get what else plan you have to get this side of Kashmir for yourself


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## Areesh

Kashmir: Bullets for Books and Stones, Continued Crimes Against Humanity By The World's Largest Democracy

Mohsin Mohi-Ud DinKashmiri-American human rights activist, Fulbright Scholar-Morocco

While Indian Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao had met with her Pakistani counterpart, Salman Basir, for talks last month, Kashmiris have been mourning the widespread murders of Kashmiri youth by state security forces, some 15 people this past month. The murders have sparked the largest civil protests by Kashmiris in the last two years in the Indian Administered Kashmir valley, nestled between India and Pakistan. "Everything is dead. The curfew has kept us in our homes for the last two weeks. No work, no bread, no milk, no school. More than five people have been killed in the last 24 hours," said sources speaking with me over the phone from Srinagar, Kashmir. Adding fuel to the fire, earlier this year it was revealed that Indian paramilitary forces were engaged in staging fake encounter killings by kidnapping Kashmiri civilians and reporting the murders of the civilians as armed encounters with foreign militants/terrorists. With a continuing lack of justice and accountability suffocating Kashmiri civil society, Kashmir may grow more vulnerable to falling under a resurgence of armed uprising and religious radicalization that currently plagues the region, namely in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Further instability and lawlessness in the region will marginalize the efforts of the United States and other nations who remain invested in the security and peace of the region.

*WIDESPREAD KILLINGS OF YOUTH
*

Several weeks ago, a 17 year old Kashmir student, Tufail Ahmad Matoo, was walking home amidst a routine and civil anti-India protest by Kashmiris in the embattled region of Indian Occupied Kashmir. He was carrying his books. Like many Kashmiri youth of today, Tufail grew up having to endure an environment of indiscriminant arrests and killings by state security forces as well as militants. Today, an entire generation of young Kashmiris like Tufail have grown up witnessing the murder of over 70,000 people and the kidnappings and disappearances of over 8,000 Kashmiris, since 1989. Yet Tufail, like most Kashmiri youth, was focusing on his studies as means of escape. *Unfortunately, like thousands of young Kashmiri boys before him, Tufail's life was cut short when he was shot in the head by a rubber bullet from Indian security forces and police last month. *The killing of Tufail sparked civil protests across the Kashmir valley for the last several weeks. Two more Kashmiri youth were murdered by state security forces during funeral processions and civil protests in the days following Tufail's murder last month. As recently as this week, three more innocent Kashmiris have been killed, including a 16 year old boy who was murdered when security forces opened fire on protesters at a funeral procession of a 17 year old boy murdered Tuesday.

*Just days after the student, Tufail, was murdered by state security forces, Rafiq Bangroo, 25, was severely beaten by the Indian Administered Central Reserve Police Force, CRPF, during a protest against Tufail's murder. Rafiq succumbed to his injuries. One day later, during the funeral procession for Rafiq Bangroo, the deceased's neighbor, Javaid Malla, 20, was shot and killed by security forces.* Once again, curfews and civil shutdowns have left schools and businesses closed and the valley at a stand still. Indian paramilitary and police forces have been opening fire on protesters and taking men and boys into custody. *This past Monday, 17 year old Muzaffar Bhat disappeared after troops chased him and a group of young boys throwing stones. Muzzafar's body was found the next day and he was allegedley beaten to death. At the funeral procession for Muzaffar, a 16 year old boy, Abrar Khan, was murdered by police during mass civil protests against the alleged killings.* Some 15 Kashmiri civilians have been killed by Indian security forces since June. Kashmiris are again locked down under the gun of security forces that operate brutally with impunity. The beatings and shoot-to-kill tactics of state security forces legalized under draconian security laws continue to marginalize the basic rights, (such as the to life and movement), of millions of women and children of Kashmir.

The murders of several Kashmiri youth this past month by security forces clearly exhibits the widespread and systematic practice of shoot-to-kill strategies conducted by the state security apparatuses of India. *Soldiers and state security forces are able to use bullets to combat stones and slogans under the protection of Indian security legislation, such as the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, AFSPA, which grants Indian paramilitary and police forces license to detain, shoot, and torture at will with virtual protection from being prosecuted by civilian courts and international bodies.*

*FAKE ENCOUNTER KILLINGS AND MASS GRAVES
*


Kashmir's history has seen over 70,000 casualties and 8,000 + documented enforced disappearances since 1989. As is often the case, reports in the media about Kashmir often document Indian soldiers' killings of militants as advertised by the state security forces of India. *Yet, the international community and media remain silent on documented civilian killings as well as fake encounter killings in which Kashmiri civilians are killed in custody and pawned to the international community as 'foreign militants/terrorists'. *The practice of fake encounter killings is widespread throughout the valley as it rewards Indian forces legitimacy in the eyes of the media that India's military presence in the Kashmir valley is imperative to stopping the 'militancy'. Consequently, Kashmir remains one of the most militarized areas in the world with over 500,000 Indian paramilitary forces policing a population under draconian security laws.

Examples of fake encounter killings are as recent as April 2010. *The International People's Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice in Indian Administered Kashmir has reported that Shahzad Ahmad (27 years old), Riyaz Ahmad (20 years old), and Mohammad Shafi (19 years old) were executed in a fake encounter in Kupwara District. The men were last seen in the custody of special-counter-insurgency personnel.* The family reported the men missing after several days. At the same time, the military reported that security forces killed three foreign militants in the area. After a police investigation, the bodies of the three alleged foreign militants were found. Army personnel are reported to have pressured local police to report the bodies as those of foreign militants. Once the bodies were exhumed however, it was concluded that the bodies were Kashmiri civilians, not foreign terrorists and autopsies showed the bodies to have been shot at close range, execution style. ( It must be noted that rarely do police investigations into arbitrary arrests and kidnappings yield results.) The murders of the three Kashmiri men have since been authenticated as fake encounters. *In another example on April 14, a 70 year old Kashmiri pan-handler met the same fate and he too was mislabeled by the Indian security forces as a foreign militant.* The indiscriminate killing of three youth in the past eleven days is evidence enough of widespread human rights abuse in Kashmir. Yet, there are thousands of more stories of fake encounter killings in Kashmir that are evidence to crimes by state security forces. Such widespread and systematic practices constitute *crimes against humanity.*


*Adding urgency to the conflict in Kashmir is the recent discovery of over 2,700 unmarked graves in Kashmir. The Kashmir People's Tribunal recently documented the graves in a report titled Buried Evidence, authored by the conveners of the International Kashmir People's Tribunal , Dr. Angana Cahtterji and Parvez Imroz, two leading human rights investigators in South East Asia. The Tribunal reported over 2,900 bodies across 55 villages contained in over 2,700 mass graves.* *Since the release of the report, Indian security forces refuse an investigation into identifying the bodies. *They claim the bodies to be those of foreign terrorists. (State security forces have also made attempts on the lives of both conveners from the Tribunal.) Of the few bodies that were exhumed, it was found that the bodies of the alleged foreign terrorists in fact were authenticated fake encounters in which Kashmiri civilians, who had been reported missing by their families, were taken into custody by security forces and then executed. The slain men were not foreign terrorists, but Kashmiris. The Kashmir People's Tribunal reports " it is reasonable to contend that the 8,000 + enforced and involuntary disappearances since 1989 would correlate to the number of bodies found in unknown, unmarked, and mass graves across Kashmir." Lawyers have filed thousands of petitions and the civilian population continues to engage in civil protests for accountability, however, the calls for justice and accountability remain unanswered. Consequently, young Kashmiri boys, like 17 year-old Tufail, continue to be victims of indiscriminant killings by the state security forces.

*THE RISKS AND THE NEEDS
*


For every boy like Tufail that is killed, there risks more youth falling vulnerable to taking up the gun as a result of legislated political and physical oppression. One loss of an innocent young life is on its own deplorable, and yet, two more Kashmiri youth had been killed by Indian security forces in that same week, last month. *This week, four more innocents were murdered during funeral processions and protests, among them two more 17 and 16 year old boys. The international community must demand more accountability from the world's largest democracy, India.* As long as there exists such widespread and systematic extra-judicial killings and enforced disappearances, the youth of today, who have seen nothing but failed political and judicial processes, will take to the gun and we may see a resurgence of the armed militant movement that devastated Kashmir and the region in 1989.

Making matters more fragile is the growing instability and armed radicalization in Taliban controlled areas throughout neighboring Afghanistan and Pakistan. Over two decades ago, U.S-backed Islamic militants, or, mujahideen, led an uprising against Soviet-controlled Afghanistan in the 1980s. The mujahideen's fight against abuses and crimes sparked the armed movement of youth in Kashmir in 1989 against Indian occupation and human rights abuse. Upon their victory in Afghanistan, the mujahideen fighters grew alienated and radicalized, eventually forming what we today identify as the Taliban. Today we see a resurgence of Taliban fighters in Afghanistan and Pakistan. This regional trend, coupled with the deteriorating human rights situation in Kashmir, may once again make Kashmir a potential time bomb for further instability in the region. The international community must not let its efforts for regional security be sabotaged by growing lawlessness and instability in Indian Occupied Kashmir. The sources of the instability today, as demonstrated by Kashmiri civil society, are the indiscriminant killings of civilians by Indian paramilitary forces and the extra-judicial killings that continue unabated.


Kashmiri civil society needs something to hold onto as they find themselves locked in an increasingly fragile environment: prospects for political or judicial resolution seem dim while desperate violent strategies may be gaining ground as they are in neighboring Afghanistan and Pakistan. Therefore, it is imperative for India's ally, the United States and members U.N Security Council, to ensure that India commits to transparent, independent, and robust investigations of extrajudicial killings and indiscriminant attacks on civil society in Kashmir. International rights bodies must be allowed access by India to perform independent investigations into mass graves documented in the Kashmir Tribunal's report. Additionally, draconian state-security legislation must be challenged by the international community because such laws allow for indiscriminant arrests, torture, and murder of civilians. Security legislation, such as the Disturbed Areas Act and the Armed forces Special Powers Act, must be repealed for they are in direct contravention of the basic tenants within the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, particularly the right to life. Any amended piece of security legislation must incorporate the UN Declaration on Protection of All Persons from Enforced Disappearances and the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhumane or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.

*CONCLUSION*


*Kashmiri civilians are repeatedly murdered by Indian forces and then pawned to the international community as foreign terrorists.* This should no longer be a tolerated enterprise for India's militarization of Kashmir. Kashmiri mothers, fathers, and the youth are against terrorism being that Kashmiris are themselves the main victims of grenade attacks by militants, as well as, the bullets and mortars of Indian state security forces. The Kashmiri people remain strong and they hold on to a hope that the Obama Administration and UN bodies will pressure India to: demilitarize the valley; repeal repressive security legislation; and account for human rights violations committed over the last 20 years. However, as Kashmiri youth continue to be murdered by state security forces this week, the avenues for legal and political resolution seem less attainable for the everyday Kashmiri. Should the world not come to the aid of the people of Kashmir, who for over two decades have had to endure the absence of justice and accountability, then the valley may forever fall in the spiraling gyre of lawlessness and violence that will stifle security in South Asia, and thus threaten the security of other nations.

Kashmiris believe in democracy and civil society and that is why they continue to carry out civil protests amidst the bullets and batons of brutal of state security apparatuses. Yet, they are human and they desperately hold on to the fragile hope for justice and accountability. It is time the world stands with them and not let more 17 year-old boys be slain in vain.

Kashmir: Bullets for Books and Stones, Continued Crimes Against Humanity By The World's Largest Democracy


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## ChinaChina

oh my god look at all thoses innocent civilians being killed, and they keep on lecturing china on human rights


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## Guynextdoor

Areesh said:


> Kashmir: Bullets for Books and Stones, Continued Crimes Against Humanity By The World's Largest Democracy
> 
> Mohsin Mohi-Ud DinKashmiri-American human rights activist, Fulbright Scholar-Morocco
> 
> While Indian Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao had met with her Pakistani counterpart, Salman Basir, for talks last month, Kashmiris have been mourning the widespread murders of Kashmiri youth by state security forces, some 15 people this past month. The murders have sparked the largest civil protests by Kashmiris in the last two years in the Indian Administered Kashmir valley, nestled between India and Pakistan. "Everything is dead. The curfew has kept us in our homes for the last two weeks. No work, no bread, no milk, no school. More than five people have been killed in the last 24 hours," said sources speaking with me over the phone from Srinagar, Kashmir. Adding fuel to the fire, earlier this year it was revealed that Indian paramilitary forces were engaged in staging fake encounter killings by kidnapping Kashmiri civilians and reporting the murders of the civilians as armed encounters with foreign militants/terrorists. With a continuing lack of justice and accountability suffocating Kashmiri civil society, Kashmir may grow more vulnerable to falling under a resurgence of armed uprising and religious radicalization that currently plagues the region, namely in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Further instability and lawlessness in the region will marginalize the efforts of the United States and other nations who remain invested in the security and peace of the region.
> 
> *WIDESPREAD KILLINGS OF YOUTH
> *
> 
> Several weeks ago, a 17 year old Kashmir student, Tufail Ahmad Matoo, was walking home amidst a routine and civil anti-India protest by Kashmiris in the embattled region of Indian Occupied Kashmir. He was carrying his books. Like many Kashmiri youth of today, Tufail grew up having to endure an environment of indiscriminant arrests and killings by state security forces as well as militants. Today, an entire generation of young Kashmiris like Tufail have grown up witnessing the murder of over 70,000 people and the kidnappings and disappearances of over 8,000 Kashmiris, since 1989. Yet Tufail, like most Kashmiri youth, was focusing on his studies as means of escape. *Unfortunately, like thousands of young Kashmiri boys before him, Tufail's life was cut short when he was shot in the head by a rubber bullet from Indian security forces and police last month. *The killing of Tufail sparked civil protests across the Kashmir valley for the last several weeks. Two more Kashmiri youth were murdered by state security forces during funeral processions and civil protests in the days following Tufail's murder last month. As recently as this week, three more innocent Kashmiris have been killed, including a 16 year old boy who was murdered when security forces opened fire on protesters at a funeral procession of a 17 year old boy murdered Tuesday.
> 
> *Just days after the student, Tufail, was murdered by state security forces, Rafiq Bangroo, 25, was severely beaten by the Indian Administered Central Reserve Police Force, CRPF, during a protest against Tufail's murder. Rafiq succumbed to his injuries. One day later, during the funeral procession for Rafiq Bangroo, the deceased's neighbor, Javaid Malla, 20, was shot and killed by security forces.* Once again, curfews and civil shutdowns have left schools and businesses closed and the valley at a stand still. Indian paramilitary and police forces have been opening fire on protesters and taking men and boys into custody. *This past Monday, 17 year old Muzaffar Bhat disappeared after troops chased him and a group of young boys throwing stones. Muzzafar's body was found the next day and he was allegedley beaten to death. At the funeral procession for Muzaffar, a 16 year old boy, Abrar Khan, was murdered by police during mass civil protests against the alleged killings.* Some 15 Kashmiri civilians have been killed by Indian security forces since June. Kashmiris are again locked down under the gun of security forces that operate brutally with impunity. The beatings and shoot-to-kill tactics of state security forces legalized under draconian security laws continue to marginalize the basic rights, (such as the to life and movement), of millions of women and children of Kashmir.
> 
> The murders of several Kashmiri youth this past month by security forces clearly exhibits the widespread and systematic practice of shoot-to-kill strategies conducted by the state security apparatuses of India. *Soldiers and state security forces are able to use bullets to combat stones and slogans under the protection of Indian security legislation, such as the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, AFSPA, which grants Indian paramilitary and police forces license to detain, shoot, and torture at will with virtual protection from being prosecuted by civilian courts and international bodies.*
> 
> *FAKE ENCOUNTER KILLINGS AND MASS GRAVES
> *
> 
> 
> Kashmir's history has seen over 70,000 casualties and 8,000 + documented enforced disappearances since 1989. As is often the case, reports in the media about Kashmir often document Indian soldiers' killings of militants as advertised by the state security forces of India. *Yet, the international community and media remain silent on documented civilian killings as well as fake encounter killings in which Kashmiri civilians are killed in custody and pawned to the international community as 'foreign militants/terrorists'. *The practice of fake encounter killings is widespread throughout the valley as it rewards Indian forces legitimacy in the eyes of the media that India's military presence in the Kashmir valley is imperative to stopping the 'militancy'. Consequently, Kashmir remains one of the most militarized areas in the world with over 500,000 Indian paramilitary forces policing a population under draconian security laws.
> 
> Examples of fake encounter killings are as recent as April 2010. *The International People's Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice in Indian Administered Kashmir has reported that Shahzad Ahmad (27 years old), Riyaz Ahmad (20 years old), and Mohammad Shafi (19 years old) were executed in a fake encounter in Kupwara District. The men were last seen in the custody of special-counter-insurgency personnel.* The family reported the men missing after several days. At the same time, the military reported that security forces killed three foreign militants in the area. After a police investigation, the bodies of the three alleged foreign militants were found. Army personnel are reported to have pressured local police to report the bodies as those of foreign militants. Once the bodies were exhumed however, it was concluded that the bodies were Kashmiri civilians, not foreign terrorists and autopsies showed the bodies to have been shot at close range, execution style. ( It must be noted that rarely do police investigations into arbitrary arrests and kidnappings yield results.) The murders of the three Kashmiri men have since been authenticated as fake encounters. *In another example on April 14, a 70 year old Kashmiri pan-handler met the same fate and he too was mislabeled by the Indian security forces as a foreign militant.* The indiscriminate killing of three youth in the past eleven days is evidence enough of widespread human rights abuse in Kashmir. Yet, there are thousands of more stories of fake encounter killings in Kashmir that are evidence to crimes by state security forces. Such widespread and systematic practices constitute *crimes against humanity.*
> 
> 
> *Adding urgency to the conflict in Kashmir is the recent discovery of over 2,700 unmarked graves in Kashmir. The Kashmir People's Tribunal recently documented the graves in a report titled Buried Evidence, authored by the conveners of the International Kashmir People's Tribunal , Dr. Angana Cahtterji and Parvez Imroz, two leading human rights investigators in South East Asia. The Tribunal reported over 2,900 bodies across 55 villages contained in over 2,700 mass graves.* *Since the release of the report, Indian security forces refuse an investigation into identifying the bodies. *They claim the bodies to be those of foreign terrorists. (State security forces have also made attempts on the lives of both conveners from the Tribunal.) Of the few bodies that were exhumed, it was found that the bodies of the alleged foreign terrorists in fact were authenticated fake encounters in which Kashmiri civilians, who had been reported missing by their families, were taken into custody by security forces and then executed. The slain men were not foreign terrorists, but Kashmiris. The Kashmir People's Tribunal reports " it is reasonable to contend that the 8,000 + enforced and involuntary disappearances since 1989 would correlate to the number of bodies found in unknown, unmarked, and mass graves across Kashmir." Lawyers have filed thousands of petitions and the civilian population continues to engage in civil protests for accountability, however, the calls for justice and accountability remain unanswered. Consequently, young Kashmiri boys, like 17 year-old Tufail, continue to be victims of indiscriminant killings by the state security forces.
> 
> *THE RISKS AND THE NEEDS
> *
> 
> 
> For every boy like Tufail that is killed, there risks more youth falling vulnerable to taking up the gun as a result of legislated political and physical oppression. One loss of an innocent young life is on its own deplorable, and yet, two more Kashmiri youth had been killed by Indian security forces in that same week, last month. *This week, four more innocents were murdered during funeral processions and protests, among them two more 17 and 16 year old boys. The international community must demand more accountability from the world's largest democracy, India.* As long as there exists such widespread and systematic extra-judicial killings and enforced disappearances, the youth of today, who have seen nothing but failed political and judicial processes, will take to the gun and we may see a resurgence of the armed militant movement that devastated Kashmir and the region in 1989.
> 
> Making matters more fragile is the growing instability and armed radicalization in Taliban controlled areas throughout neighboring Afghanistan and Pakistan. Over two decades ago, U.S-backed Islamic militants, or, mujahideen, led an uprising against Soviet-controlled Afghanistan in the 1980s. The mujahideen's fight against abuses and crimes sparked the armed movement of youth in Kashmir in 1989 against Indian occupation and human rights abuse. Upon their victory in Afghanistan, the mujahideen fighters grew alienated and radicalized, eventually forming what we today identify as the Taliban. Today we see a resurgence of Taliban fighters in Afghanistan and Pakistan. This regional trend, coupled with the deteriorating human rights situation in Kashmir, may once again make Kashmir a potential time bomb for further instability in the region. The international community must not let its efforts for regional security be sabotaged by growing lawlessness and instability in Indian Occupied Kashmir. The sources of the instability today, as demonstrated by Kashmiri civil society, are the indiscriminant killings of civilians by Indian paramilitary forces and the extra-judicial killings that continue unabated.
> 
> 
> Kashmiri civil society needs something to hold onto as they find themselves locked in an increasingly fragile environment: prospects for political or judicial resolution seem dim while desperate violent strategies may be gaining ground as they are in neighboring Afghanistan and Pakistan. Therefore, it is imperative for India's ally, the United States and members U.N Security Council, to ensure that India commits to transparent, independent, and robust investigations of extrajudicial killings and indiscriminant attacks on civil society in Kashmir. International rights bodies must be allowed access by India to perform independent investigations into mass graves documented in the Kashmir Tribunal's report. Additionally, draconian state-security legislation must be challenged by the international community because such laws allow for indiscriminant arrests, torture, and murder of civilians. Security legislation, such as the Disturbed Areas Act and the Armed forces Special Powers Act, must be repealed for they are in direct contravention of the basic tenants within the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, particularly the right to life. Any amended piece of security legislation must incorporate the UN Declaration on Protection of All Persons from Enforced Disappearances and the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhumane or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.
> 
> *CONCLUSION*
> 
> 
> *Kashmiri civilians are repeatedly murdered by Indian forces and then pawned to the international community as foreign terrorists.* This should no longer be a tolerated enterprise for India's militarization of Kashmir. Kashmiri mothers, fathers, and the youth are against terrorism being that Kashmiris are themselves the main victims of grenade attacks by militants, as well as, the bullets and mortars of Indian state security forces. The Kashmiri people remain strong and they hold on to a hope that the Obama Administration and UN bodies will pressure India to: demilitarize the valley; repeal repressive security legislation; and account for human rights violations committed over the last 20 years. However, as Kashmiri youth continue to be murdered by state security forces this week, the avenues for legal and political resolution seem less attainable for the everyday Kashmiri. Should the world not come to the aid of the people of Kashmir, who for over two decades have had to endure the absence of justice and accountability, then the valley may forever fall in the spiraling gyre of lawlessness and violence that will stifle security in South Asia, and thus threaten the security of other nations.
> 
> Kashmiris believe in democracy and civil society and that is why they continue to carry out civil protests amidst the bullets and batons of brutal of state security apparatuses. Yet, they are human and they desperately hold on to the fragile hope for justice and accountability. It is time the world stands with them and not let more 17 year-old boys be slain in vain.
> 
> Kashmir: Bullets for Books and Stones, Continued Crimes Against Humanity By The World's Largest Democracy


So what ?


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## Honor

India is not fit to be world largest democracy!


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## Awesome

EjazR said:


> Well its unfortunate but it looks more like a panic knee-jerk reaction. The Army should not be in population centers because of just riots and stone pelting crowds. The Indian army has traditionally always been out of population centers and only called in for brief periods during the peak of militancy. According to some reports the army is not deploying in the city but just staging a march. So hopefully,
> 
> The important thing is to wrap up the initial fake encounter killing inquiries in Machil and show to the people that the guilty will be punished.


When the state of Gujarat was massacring Muslims, there was no control on the blood hounds till the Indian Army arrived. So Indian army has always been the final line of defence against riots.

Of course in this case the Indian Army is probably more hated than the Indian police by those same rioters.


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## ChinaChina

Who would have thought in this day and age the so called biggest democracy country in the world still find the need of sending in army and tanks to kill innoncent unarmed cillivians.....

Free iok


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## IndianArmy

ChinaChina said:


> Who would have thought in this day and age the so called biggest democracy country in the world still find the need of sending in army and tanks to kill innoncent unarmed cillivians.....
> 
> Free iok



Please be more Decent.... Army is not there to kill any one... But to protect them.... You speak so much, but have you ever wondered when and why the army had to come?


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## ek_indian

ChinaChina said:


> Who would have thought in this day and age the so called biggest democracy country in the world still find the need of sending in army and tanks to kill innoncent unarmed cillivians.....
> 
> Free iok



Thank you for your insightful comment.

Army is called to restore law and order. It is not called for killing civilians as you put it. So far, they have done flag march.
Tanks in city?? From where you are listening all these?

Lastly, freeing iok is just a wishful topic for immature posters.


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## Bang Galore

ChinaChina said:


> Who would have thought in this day and age the so called biggest democracy country in the world still find the need of sending in army and tanks to kill innoncent unarmed cillivians.....
> 
> Free iok



Don't confuse the Tiananmen Square massacre with this. There are no tanks being sent here.The army just did a flag march & nothing more.

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## Farahvar

ChinaChina said:


> Who would have thought in this day and age the so called biggest democracy country in the world still find the need of sending in army and tanks to kill innoncent unarmed cillivians.....
> 
> Free iok



Didn't last year China send its army to Kill countless unarmed Buddhist monks in Tibet 

Talk about living in glass houses , china has no integrity nor moral authority to lecture anyone.


FREE TIBET

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## Kinetic

Areesh said:


> What is the national integrity. Making nude and semi nude movies and killing innocents in Kashmir.



*What nude movies are you talking about?*  Can you compare Bollywood movies with Lollywood? 

Which country didn't kill innocent people? Pakistan? China? US? Russia? Or are we something special?

When people fights with police some people/police die everywhere not only in India but every where! Its unfortunate but those people coming to the streets and fighting for nothing are also responsible.

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## Kinetic

ChinaChina said:


> Who would have thought in this day and age the so called biggest democracy country in the world still find the need of sending in army and tanks to kill innoncent unarmed cillivians.....
> 
> Free iok





There is only one tiananmen square in this world! Rests keep aside...

Those people died in Kashmir was not innocent, we have seen videos. Police did everything not to turn it violent but the people started throwing stones. The Policemen also were Kashmiris themselves mainly. 

Though unfortunate it happens anywhere in India and the world.


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## boxer_B

ChinaChina said:


> Who would have thought in this day and age the so called biggest democracy country in the world still find the need of sending in army and tanks to kill innoncent unarmed cillivians.....
> 
> Free iok



Who sent tanks ?? Its a flag march to restore law and order.

Much better than one using airforce bombardments and indiscriminate shelling on its own people. After some days, situation will cool down because these handful of protesters are nothing compared to *voting* population of kashmir.

Still now Kashmir is better than Urmaqui,Xinjing where muslims are not allowed to Haj without govt consent, even confiscating their passport or they are not allowed to fast during Ramdaan or not allowed to pray in mosque on Fridays or not allowed in CPC just because of their religious beliefs.


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## Guynextdoor

ChinaChina said:


> Who would have thought in this day and age the so called biggest democracy country in the world still find the need of sending in army and tanks to kill innoncent unarmed cillivians.....
> 
> Free iok


We're more concerned about Tibet and Taiwan. J&K is a small state. Larger proportions of humanity locked in these two places. Like Dalai Lama said, until the independence of Tibet is not secured, humanity will not be able sleep with their conscience. And of course, continued independece of taiwan...


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

*Indian govt warns youths over Kashmir protests*

By Izhar Wani (AFP) &#8211; 2 hours ago

SRINAGAR, India &#8212; The Indian government on Thursday appealed for parents in Kashmir to keep their teenage sons indoors after the deaths of several young men in violent protests over the last month.

At least 15 people have died in separate incidents as security forces opened fire to break up angry demonstrations held across the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley.

Each death has triggered further violence despite appeals for calm from the state's Chief Minister Omar Abdullah. Teenagers and young men have often been among those throwing stones at security forces during the rallies.

"It is important that people do not come on to the streets and start stone pelting," Home Minister P. Chidambaram told reporters in New Delhi, saying the restrictions on all public movement would remain in force for some days.

"Children, especially young boys, should remain indoors. I think there is a responsibility of parents to ensure that," Chidambaram said.

Tens of thousands of Indian soldiers, paramilitary troops and police were on patrol on Thursday in Indian-controlled Kashmir enforcing the curfew in Muslim-majority towns.

The shutdown was imposed in the Kashmiri summer capital Srinagar on Tuesday after three protesters died in firing by the security forces.

The city has been the focus of protests since June 11, when a 17-year-old student was killed by a police teargas shell.

Curfew orders have been widely ignored in recent days, but the national army on Wednesday marched through Srinagar in a show of force designed to end the increasingly violent protests. The army presence was also strong on Thursday.

However Kashmiris -- many of whom want independence from India -- crowded several mosques in downtown Srinagar overnight shouting: "We want freedom."

Separatist leaders have also repeated calls for residents to defy the security forces and take to the streets.

Home Secretary G.K. Pillai, a senior civil servant, visited the disputed region and held discussions with Abdullah.

"The situation is under control in Srinagar and is being watched closely," Pillai told NDTV. "More paramilitary forces are being sent there. The state government has been told to crack down on trouble-makers."

Shops, offices and schools remained closed and streets were empty during the day.

Reporters and photographers were not allowed to operate in Srinagar despite having curfew passes.

The insurgency against New Delhi's rule over Kashmir has claimed tens of thousands of lives.

Hindu-majority India and Muslim-majority Pakistan each hold Kashmir in part but claim it in full. They have fought two of their three wars over the region since the subcontinent's partition in 1947.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

*Induction of Army into Kashmir in tune with national policy*
2010-07-08 16:50:00

The cycle of violence that has enveloped Kashmir for almost a month now has finally led to the decision of calling in the Army in support of the Police and the Paramilitary forces. This is the time to evolve new ideas that provide viable long term options to deal with the problem.

First and foremost, all democratic and freedom loving forces in the country should stand steadfast in support of the government of Jammu and Kashmir and its Chief Minister Omar Abdullah. Not many Chief Ministers in Kashmir have completed their terms, even the grandfather and father of the present incumbent have resigned from the post of Chief Minister at some point in time. The previous government fell under similar circumstances of turmoil just two years ago.

Historically, removal of a government has not brought about any change in the politico-social environment of the Valley, therefore, this is not the solution to the problem. On the other hand it would result in yet another victory for such forces in the Valley who indulge in causing disruption.

This is not the first time in India that the Army has been called out in aid of civil authority. Kashmir need not be seen through a prism that is different from the rest of the Nation and the decision should be viewed as one taken in concert with national policy for dealing such situations. In other words, the emotional hype that is being given to this decision is misplaced and it should not be allowed to gain political credence.

The Army has, very rightly, been given the mandate to maintain peace through the medium of flag marches and imposition of curfew. Some other forces have the responsibility of crowd control. This decision maintains the stature of the J and K Police and Para military forces who are primarily responsible for maintaining law and order. However, should the need arise, the Army should not shy away from using force to maintain peace.

The responsibility for this cycle of violence is sought to be put on the youth of Kashmir. The implication is that, due to a violent childhood spent in the shadow of the gun and lack of employment opportunities, they see no light in the end of the tunnel and the resultant anger and frustration is erupting in the form of spontaneous agitations.

This perception is divorced from reality. In comparison with the rest of the Nation, Kashmir is well placed in terms of both literacy and poverty indices. There are others who are much worse off, but they do not come out in the streets and vent their frustration and anger.

Secondly, while the world is getting globalised Kashmir is being guided by its leaders towards geo-political isolation. If you do not welcome investment, do not provide land for commercial use, do not give security for commercial enterprise and on top of it do not leave your home town to look for employment outside, how can you progress? The leaders and elders should advise the youth to put the past behind them, get over this ghetto mentality, shun hatred , abjure mindless rage to direct their energies towards achievement orientation like the rest of the youth of the country.

A word about the so called spontaneous nature of these agitations. One cannot help but discern a distinct pattern being followed year after year which leaves doubts about their spontaneity. It is also a known fact that some political segments in the Valley use disruption as a tool to achieve their objectives . While living in luxurious comfort they give unending calls for Hartals and Bandhs with little thought to the inconvenience and economic loss being caused to the poor people.

Against this backdrop, while ruthlessly cracking down upon the disruptive elements the Government should prepare itself to deal with such upheavals. Training the police in riot t control should be given top priority and the quality of policing should be enhanced through additional recruitment, purchase of modern riot control equipment and specialised training.

The debate on Kashmir should involve a wider section of society. Jammu and Ladakh are also stake holders and their people need to be involved in the discussion process. Retired officials who have served in Kashmir, intelligentsia including Kashmiri Pundits, businessmen, scholars, analysts and journalists should be involved in evolving a holistic understanding of the problem.

Presently, selected Kashmiri politicians and leaders are invited to express their views on pre- decided agendas.

The decisions are mostly inconclusive. It is often said the most complex problems have simple solutions. Kashmir will emerge from the existing despondency through a simple, realistic, step by step approach. By Jaibans Singh (ANI)
SEARCH

AFP: Indian govt warns youths over Kashmir protests


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

These are very tragic moments for Kashmiris, hope they somehow be successful in there pursuit for a just cause..!


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## Imran Khan

arundhati on BBC urdu abut kashmir voilence . she her self think indian army is occupaid kashmir. and killing innocents.voileteing rules .


click link for her conversation with BBC urdu

*?BBC Urdu? - ????? ?????? - ????? ???? ???? ???????*

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## rohailmalhi

I see Indian are very *Concerned* over the riot in Indian Occupied Kashmir.
and im also anxious to know whether they are going to Affliates these riots with 
ISI. as they always do .

May the People of Kashmir Get their due Freedom for which they are figthing for many years.


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## Guynextdoor

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> These are very tragic moments for Kashmiris, hope they somehow be successful in there pursuit for a just cause..!


Sure they will be successful in their just cause of being prosperous, peaceful and contributing citizens of the republic of India. Don't worry about that. We'll cull out the elements behind these 'spontaneous' protests.


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## Marxist

Imran Khan said:


> arundhati on BBC urdu abut kashmir voilence . she her self *think* indian army is occupaid kashmir. and killing innocents.voileteing rules .
> 
> 
> *?BBC Urdu? - ????? ?????? - ????? ???? ???? ???????*



 its only her *thinking* nothing more.


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## RobbieS

Imran Khan said:


> arundhati on BBC urdu abut kashmir voilence . she her self think indian army is occupaid kashmir. and killing innocents.voileteing rules .
> 
> 
> click link for her conversation with BBC urdu
> 
> *?BBC Urdu? - ????? ?????? - ????? ???? ???? ???????*



So what????


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## Imran Khan

RobbieS said:


> So what????



so what??????/ its mean you have no answer don't post go kitchen drink some cold drink and come back all these threads you just write so what so what so what its your level of post shameless you are.

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## WAQAS119

RobbieS said:


> So what????



*Justice* for everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
India has no right to kill innocents and illegally occupy land only to fullfill the ego.


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## Imran Khan

Marxist said:


> its only her *thinking* nothing more.



if indians think like this what you say abut kashmiris thereself?


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## Dr.Evil

She is one person thinking in this way, she is free to have her own point of view, it does not mean that its correct and everyone will have to accept that.

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## blueoval79

And does she think her opinion matters in the way India handles its own territory...... may be some Feminist fan following her will care for her telling them to burn the bra.....

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## Guynextdoor

Is some of the Kashmir violence planned and instigated?

Is some of the Kashmir violence planned and instigated?


Srinagar: After a high-level security meeting in Srinagar, top Home Ministry sources say there is evidence that some of the violence in the Valley is being planned and instigated.

Sources say security officials are now looking at a number of intercepted conversations between different individuals and extremist elements that reveal evidence of deliberate attempts at not just ensuring violence, but even deaths.

NDTV has access to some of the intercepts and one recording is as recent as this morning.

The conversation is *between two separatists, Ghulam Ahmad Dar and Shabir Ahmed Wani*. The taped conversations refer to a protest rally in Budgam. *There is talk of money changing hands - "You are getting money, but not doing enough." And then, alarmingly, about the need for more people to die - "There must be some more deaths" and "10-15 more people should be martyred."*


That some of the recent violence in Kashmir may be planned does not come as a complete surprise, with the Centre having accused the Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) of fueling the fire in the Valley. But, sources say, there is recognition that there is genuine protest and anger in the Valley and that "mischief makers" are taking advantage of that anger. And there is recognition that this genuine anger will have to be tackled politically.

*After the Home Secretary's visit to Srinagar yesterday, sources say, the state government has been told to crack down on the mischief-makers, arrest them and enforce curfew completely, since their agenda clearly is to ensure that the cycle of violence continues. *

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## Awesome

Dr.Evil said:


> She is one person thinking in this way, she is free to have her own point of view, it does not mean that its correct and everyone will have to accept that.


Let Kashmiris vote in a UN administered plebiscite, every street in Kashmir would echo the same.

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## Kinetic

Imran Khan said:


> if indians think like this what you say abut kashmiris thereself?



What Kashmiris want we have seen in general elections. There are many more Kashmiris other than those on streets. 

arundhati roy said something against India and this became a news for you!!!!  i didn't know that she became that 'famous'!!! as arundhati roy said against India govt, she became an angel!!!!


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## Awesome

The only instigation of Kashmir's violence is the presence of Indians on their sovereign soil.

Indians are being beaten up badly in Kashmir, but they are shamelessly carrying on with their illegal occupation.

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## Marxist

Imran Khan said:


> if indians think like this what you say abut kashmiris thereself?



she is free to have her own pov,and how can u say thats true and say it represents People of Indian state Kashmir.


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## garibnawaz

Kinetic said:


> What Kashmiris want we have seen in general elections. There are many more Kashmiris other than those on streets.
> 
> arundhati roy said something against India and this became a news for you!!!!  i didn't know that she became that 'famous'!!! as arundhati roy said against India govt, she became an angel!!!!



Not to forget the separatists who took part in those elections.

Sajjad Lone, anyone?

GB

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## ek_indian

It is a well known fact that AR is maoist sympathizer. She must be relly pissed off with recent govt initiatives against naxalites/maoists. Her statements should be viewed in that light. She is also known for her remarks mostly, to be in news. 

Lastly, it is naive to assume she is representing whole India. Infact, I can safely say most Indians would not agree with her on any given issue in hand.


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## RobbieS

Imran Khan said:


> so what??????/ its mean you have no answer don't post go kitchen drink some cold drink and come back all these threads you just write so what so what so what its your level of post shameless you are.



Its perhaps you who needs a cold drink and a shower to cool down your anger.

*I wasnt talking about her views per se, but their importance.*


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## Devil Soul

^i think NDTV need to add the below line to its report to make it look more legitimate "The guy who fired that rubber bullet which killed a teenager was actually on LET payroll & his handler was so & so who was handle by a servicing ISI officer by the name of so & so "

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## Dr.Evil

Asim Aquil said:


> Let Kashmiris vote in a UN administered plebiscite, every street in Kashmir would echo the same.



The said UN Adminstered vote can be done provided pak army vacates the portion of J&k under its illegal occupation.

We should also hold a referendum in Aksai Chin Area which was illegally dontated by Pak to china.

Let that criteria be fulfilled.

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## Guynextdoor

Asim Aquil said:


> The only instigation of Kashmir's violence is the presence of Indians on their sovereign soil.
> 
> Indians are being beaten up badly in Kashmir, but they are shamelessly carrying on with their illegal occupation.


The only solution to kashmir is for you to hand over the territories you have been illegaly holding since 1948. Once we join it with our territories, the average kashmiri will feel that his land is in one piece. This problem will not end until pakistan stops it's illegal occupation of Indian territories. Look at ll the problems you guys have created for the kashmiris.


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## Hulk

She is looking only what is happening openly. There are games played internally, like people organizing protest and planning to create stir, hence she is incompetent to comment.


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## Break the Silence

RobbieS said:


> So what????



I will complete this sentence.
*So What? She is one of the most RETARD mentality in India.And thanx to democracy, she is still alive*.

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## Devil Soul

Guynextdoor said:


> The only solution to kashmir is for you to hand over the territories you have been illegaly holding since 1948. Once we join it with our territories, the average kashmiri will feel that his land is in one piece. This problem will not end until pakistan stops it's illegal occupation of Indian territories. Look at ll the problems you guys have created for the kashmiris.



u must be kidding???  PA is in barracks in Kashmir while ur army is having a flag march on the streets of illegally held Kashmiri territories..... look at the problems u guys created by not abiding by the UN resolutions on Kashmir


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## ice_man

Guynextdoor said:


> The only solution to kashmir is for you to hand over the territories you have been illegaly holding since 1948. Once we join it with our territories, the average kashmiri will feel that his land is in one piece. This problem will not end until pakistan stops it's illegal occupation of Indian territories. Look at ll the problems you guys have created for the kashmiris.



 maaaaan i think this is the joke of the century!!!! who taught you this RSS,BAJRANGDAL or BJP??? seriously hilarious!!


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## garibnawaz

Imran Khan said:


> so what??????/ its mean you have no answer don't post go kitchen drink some cold drink and come back all these threads you just write so what so what so what its your level of post shameless you are.



Do you agree with Altabh Bhai's views on Partition?

Do you agree with your President that Indians and Pakistani's are a lot alike (or something like that he said)?

GB

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## Patriot

Just want echo to h240c comments
These are very tragic moments for Kashmiris, hope they somehow be successful in there pursuit for a just cause..!Pakistanis will always provide moral support to Kashmiris.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

*Kashmiri deaths*






_Regrettably the world at large, including lame duck OIC, has taken no notice of the unrest in the valley and of gross violations of human rights there. Photo by Reuters _​
Dawn Editorial
Thursday, 08 Jul, 2010
The rising number of civilian deaths in Indian-administered Kashmir highlights the failure of Indias policy that has relied on a coercive apparatus instead of political tools to crush the current wave of protests in Srinagar and elsewhere.

So far 15 people have been killed since trouble began in mid-June with the shooting to death of a schoolboy by Indian troops. It is significant that it is the urban areas which are the bastion of the Kashmiri unrest, the protesters being unarmed people. This says a lot about the character of the movement against Indian occupation and belies New Delhis claim that foreign elements are behind the stir. As top Kashmiri leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq said the other day the struggle was indigenous and that these killings will not deter us from pursuing our goal of independence. If only the Indian leadership could grasp this truth.

Regrettably  and it is a measure of the failure of Islamabads diplomacy  the world at large, including lame duck OIC, has taken no notice of the unrest in the valley and of gross violations of human rights there. Fortunately, some human rights bodies, including those in India, keep tabs on the situation and do not fail to draw the worlds attention to the special search and arrest powers which enable the Indian security agencies to suppress the Kashmiri people. Last week, Amnesty International asked the Indian government to hold an inquiry into the civilian deaths and take action both against security personnel and against protesters found involved in rights violations. New Delhi is now reported to be considering modifying if not withdrawing the special powers which the security personnel regularly abuse to deal with Kashmiris.

Force has failed to crush the Kashmiri peoples yearning for freedom. That New Delhi should abandon political means is stupefying. Even the Indian army chief had the good sense to declare that the situation in Kashmir needed a political solution. In a newspaper interview last month, Gen V.K. Singh, while claiming that the army had done its job, said, Now the need is to handle the situation politically. This is coming from the head of an army which has deployed a minimum of half a million troops in the valley to hold the Kashmiri people back.

While the Indo-Pakistan relationship is bogged down in Indias Mumbai obsession, one hopes Pakistans foreign minister will make his Indian counterpart realise, when the two meet on July 15, that an end to the rights violations in the valley will help create an atmosphere conducive to forward movement on normalising Indo-Pakistan relations.

_DAWN.COM | Editorial | Kashmiri deaths_


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## boxer_B

Guys,

Arundhati Roy is nothing more than an opportunists and selling her controversial news for earning quick bucks. She may very well be on payroll of Indian govt to earn sympathies of separatists.

Here is a brief bio



> Arundhati Roy was born in Shillong, Meghalaya, India, to a Keralite Syrian Christian mother, the women's rights activist Mary Roy, and a Bengali father, a tea planter by profession.
> 
> She spent her childhood in Aymanam in Kerala, and went to school at Corpus Christi, Kottayam, followed by the Lawrence School, Lovedale, in Nilgiris, Tamil Nadu. *She then studied architecture at the School of Planning and Architecture, New Delhi, where she met her first husband, architect Gerard da Cunha.
> 
> Roy met her second husband, filmmaker Pradip Krishen, in 1984, and played a village girl in his award-winning movie Massey Sahib. Until made financially stable by the success of her novel The God of Small Things, she worked various jobs, including running aerobics classes at five-star hotels in New Delhi. Roy is a cousin of prominent media personality Prannoy Roy, the head of the leading Indian TV media group NDTV,. She lives in New Delhi.*



Is this face familiar to you?


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## Devil Soul

*Chidambaram tells Kashmir youths to stay indoors, says curfew to continue*
AFP, Jul 8, 2010
SRINAGAR: The government on Thursday appealed for parents in Kashmir to keep their teenage sons indoors after the deaths of several young men in violent protests over the last month. 

At least 15 people have died in separate incidents as security forces opened fire to break up angry demonstrations held across the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley. 

Each death has triggered further violence despite appeals for calm from the state's Chief Minister Omar Abdullah. Teenagers and young men have often been among those throwing stones at security forces during the rallies. 

"It is important that people do not come on to the streets and start stone pelting," Home Minister P. Chidambaram told reporters in New Delhi, saying the restrictions on all public movement would remain in force for some days. 

"Children, especially young boys, should remain indoors. I think there is a responsibility of parents to ensure that," Chidambaram said. 

Tens of thousands of Indian soldiers, paramilitary troops and police were on patrol in Indian-controlled Kashmir, enforcing the curfew in Muslim-majority towns. 

The shutdown was imposed in Srinagar on Tuesday after three protesters died in firing by the security forces. 

The city has been the focus of protests since June 11, when a 17-year-old student died from a police tear gas shell.


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## Kinetic

*Security force's intercepted telephone calls and intelligence sources also confirms that people are hired for money to do all those violence on the streets. * 

These only hurt poor people and govt of Kashmir.

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## ice_man

Kinetic said:


> *Security force's intercepted telephone calls and intelligence sources also confirms that people are hired for money to do all those violence on the streets. *
> 
> These only hurt poor people and govt of Kashmir.



what a load of bullshit & nonsense!! this will just piss off the Kashmiris more!!


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## Kinetic

ice_man said:


> what a load of bullshit & nonsense!! this will just piss off the Kashmiris more!!



No! they should know the force behind staging all these...


"The conversation is between two separatists, Ghulam Ahmad Dar and Shabir Ahmed Wani. The taped conversations refer to a protest rally in Budgam. There is talk of money changing hands - "You are getting money, but not doing enough." *And then, alarmingly, about the need for more people to die - "There must be some more deaths" and **"10-15 more people should be martyred."*

Is some of the Kashmir violence planned and instigated?

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## RobbieS

Asim Aquil said:


> Let Kashmiris vote in a UN administered plebiscite, every street in Kashmir would echo the same.



Lets first see you guys vacate Azad Kashmir (sic) and Gilgit-Baltistan and get back Aksai Chin and then we will hold a plebiscite!

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## Devil Soul

Even after being aware of the fact that cell phone conversations in IOK are monitored ... Wani & Dar used their own personal cell phones to talk about their action plan.... i need to pat the backs of the guys who intercepted this conversation


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## Guynextdoor

Devil Soul said:


> Even after being aware of the fact that cell phone conversations in IOK are monitored ... Wani & Dar used their own personal cell phones to talk about their action plan.... i need to pat the backs of the guys who intercepted this conversation


You think they'd stand a chance even if did change their numbers. You think we won't have thought of that? Don't be childish.


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## ambidex

Kinetic said:


> *Security force's intercepted telephone calls and intelligence sources also confirms that people are hired for money to do all those violence on the streets. *
> 
> These only hurt poor people and govt of Kashmir.



Kinetic, this is not new and GoI knows it very well from many years. You only have to stab one kashmiri youth to gather anti Indian Professionals out on the streets. Unfortunately It has became world wide phenomenon for Muslims to create bad PR against so called kafirs. 

I would like to request Indian members not to pronounce them as protesters but trained professionals.

Someone is playing dirty here and putting timely fuel to keep valley burnt. There are manufacturing units running and producing well trained/deceptive terrorists for anti India activities (the Infiltration is only one way towards India till today). (Links at request).

The same can be done in Pakistan controlled territory by Indians, Pakistan controlled Kashmir is in peace because of India and Indian Kashmir in trouble because of Pakistan's so called polico-moral support. 

India's role here is reactionary as far as offencive operations are concerned. It is only at the call of these ever changing strategists cum terrorists the GoI is sending troops in. 

Kashmir is an Integral part of India by Indian constitution and if someone is still underestimating the power of union of Indian then it is sheer nonsense by part of them.

We have concerns for kashmiris from either side of LOC. we understand that only Kashmiris and Indians are going to suffer ultimately not Pakistan for sure. 

It is only because of covert continuity of support by outside elements; the valley superficially appears unrest otherwise, India has brought about peace way before 2003 by eradicating all grievous elements/supplies/network with high potential of causing sophisticated attacks in Kashmir. Now they are desperate and gone to the level of stone pelting. Also Hurriyat has shown its intentions of dialogue with centre (not the first time though, before Mr. Abdul Gani lone was killed by anti Indian elements when peace process was Initiated).

Today Pakistan is retrospecting its self from head to toe like a wet hen for what went wrong. Thier policy makers are ranting day and night to discuss what is happening in all states. Only Punjab state has offered a list of 17 out law outfits those whom were an asset to raise Jihad in Kashmir. They are blind like bat when they talk about Indian misery in Kashmir but are hysterically confused about what is happening against them by their own people. 

The history is greatest mathematician and at the very first morning of peace in Kashmir the so called numbers of dead in Kashmir will be divided in between India and Pakistan and i am sure that number of dead counts will go higher towards Pakistan's share; overwhelmingly.
And trust me they will not accept the responsibility like they did after creating Taliban ( by politico moral support), now blaming USA for that, only after WOT.

Regards

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## Devil Soul

Guynextdoor said:


> You think they'd stand a chance even if did change their numbers. You think we won't have thought of that? Don't be childish.



yup why would they knowingly use cell phone even thou being aware of the fact that all cell phone conversations r being monitored ... be realistic .... ok now since u guys have a proof why don't u go after them & use the same intercepted message against them in court ...


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## Guynextdoor

Devil Soul said:


> u must be kidding???  PA is in barracks in Kashmir while ur army is having a flag march on the streets of illegally held Kashmiri territories..... look at the problems u guys created by not abiding by the UN resolutions on Kashmir


There's probably no PA in *** at all...what with the bulk of your forces strectched across Swat and all the other WOT zones. Besides, who's scared of the PA anyways (that's a different topic to be taken elsewhere)

As per the agreement between Jinnah, Mountbatten & Congress, the decision to accede toIndia or Pak was the discretion of the rulers alone and was in no way dependent upon any other factor. Jinnah agreed to it coz he thought that Muslims would automatically accede to pak. When he saw the huge amount of territorial loss that he got because of this misjudgement, he decided to put up a fight for one of the territories in which the ruler, till THEN had not acceded. But since that action itself made him accede to India, all that land automatically comes to India.(Including *** which should have ideally been returned at least by 1971).


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## Guynextdoor

Devil Soul said:


> yup why would they knowingly use cell phone even thou being aware of the fact that all cell phone conversations r being monitored ... be realistic .... ok now since u guys have a proof why don't u go after them & use the same intercepted message against them in court ...


High likelihood we'll go after these professionals and high likelihood it won't be in a court of law.


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## Aegis

S_O_C_O_M said:


>




which type of vehicle is that??? looking good..


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## Markus

Guynextdoor said:


> 'Churchill was as much a statesman as my armchair' & *moin ansari is as much a historian as my toilet seat* (I know where you got that quote from)



.............


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## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> Anyways this deployment of Indian army in IOK is good in the sense that we might hear about some hot suicide news in the future.



well may be you can .... 
But in case of Pakistan Army ...Taliban dnt give chance to even suicide them ??? 
right ???


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## gubbi

Asim Aquil said:


> So Indian army has always been the final line of defence against riots.


FYI, IA is not trained in riot control tactics. Infact it actually fares worse than the local police, but what works in IA's favor is the fact that people, both fear and respect IA.


> Of course in this case the Indian Army is probably more *feared* than the Indian police by those same rioters.


Corrected that for ya.

and you are welcome 


The point if anyone missed, is that IA is feared whenever it is deployed in trouble prone areas. And now with the Army out for a 'Flag March / Show of Force' in Srinagar, one can sense a feeling of utter hopelessness among the separatists and their 'moral' supporters and a sense of pride among the Indians.

How many armed forces can carry out such a peaceful show of force in territories their countries lay sovereignty claims on?


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## civfanatic

Kinetic said:


> What Kashmiris want we have seen in general elections. There are many more Kashmiris other than those on streets.
> 
> arundhati roy said something against India and this became a news for you!!!!  i didn't know that she became that 'famous'!!! as arundhati roy said against India govt, she became an angel!!!!



The ironic thing about the so called elections is that among major centers of current protests ie srinagar , sopore , barramull and islamabad (kashmir ) except for islamabad the ruling NC has won all seats . So how come NC government has no political prescence to stop protests from occuring . The fact is that elections were manipulated and inflated.


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## Ammyy

*Stone pelting a lucrative business in Kashmir valley, mastermind arrested*

Stone pelting mastermind arrested; protests turn a business

Press Trust Of India
Srinagar, February 05, 2010

Police on Friday arrested a person, alleged to be the kingpin of stone pelters in Kashmir valley, and claimed to have found documents, which suggest this had fast turned into a lucrative business for unemployed youths offering their service for a price.

Police had launched a massive drive against stone pelters in the valley and their investigations led to a house in Bemina colony on outskirts of the city after which they found several documents suggesting his involvement in stone- pelting business for nearly last two years, official sources said in Srinagar today.

The arrested person identified as Irshad Ahmed was interrogated by the police which recovered dozens of SIM cards, threat letters, fake press identity cards, cheque books and well maintained account registers which state the expenditure for stone pelting incidents in various parts of the valley.

The first register contained 294 names along with their photographs and mentions the details of money paid to them for their stone pelting actitivies in the last one year in downtown city, the sources said.

Police claimed to have recovered sketches of roads leading from Ganderbal to Leh, a route used by army personnel to maintain essential supplies to Ladakh division, they said.

Stone pelting becomes lucrative business in Kashmir valley
PTI February 5, 2010

Srinagar: Stone pelting in Kashmir valley appears to be fast turning into a lucrative business for some unemployed youths offering this service for a price.

Several youths are also operating stone pelting cartels funded by separatist organisations and some political parties, sources said today, adding business worth lakhs of rupees is usually generated through this activity.

Details in this regard came out during extensive interrogation of a stone pelter arrested by the Jammu and Kashmir police over a period of last three days.

Separatist groups especially those owing allegiance to Pakistan-terror outfit Hizbul Mujahideen and Lashker-e-Taiba are alleged to have formed several groups comprising a minimum of dozen people, sources in the interrogation team said.

These groups are paid a hefty amount ranging between Rs5 to Rs8 lakh, they said, adding a part of this money is handed over to another group known as initiators who pick up stones and start pelting on police and para-military forces  sometimes on trivial issues.

The groups, which are alleged to have been receiving funds from a political party as well, have stationed their people invarious localities and other districts of the Valley, the sources said. This could be the reason for stone pelting incidents occuring in a synchronised manner throughout the valley during agitations and protests, they said.

The sources said while the exact amount of money being pumped into the stone-pelting business was yet to be estimated, it could be running into lakhs of rupees.

Adding to the woes of policemen were protestors making use of stones and buildingmaterial kept by government agencies on roads for constructionactivities, the sources said.

The Government should ensure completion of work within a time frame as otherwise these materials would come handy for the stone pelters, they said.

Stone pelting becomes lucrative business in Kashmir valley
PTI Friday, February 5, 2010

Srinagar: Stone pelting in Kashmir valley appears to be fast turning into a lucrative business for some unemployed youths offering this service for a price.

Several youths are also operating stone pelting cartels funded by separatist organisations and some political parties, sources said today, adding business worth lakhs of rupees is usually generated through this activity.

Details in this regard came out during extensive interrogation of a stone pelter arrested by the Jammu and Kashmir police over a period of last three days.

Separatist groups especially those owing allegiance to Pakistan-terror outfit Hizbul Mujahideen and Lashker-e-Taiba are alleged to have formed several groups comprising a minimum of dozen people, sources in the interrogation team said.

These groups are paid a hefty amount ranging between Rs5 to Rs8 lakh, they said, adding a part of this money is handed over to another group known as initiators who pick up stones and start pelting on police and para-military forces  sometimes on trivial issues.

The groups, which are alleged to have been receiving funds from a political party as well, have stationed their people invarious localities and other districts of the Valley, the sources said. This could be the reason for stone pelting incidents occuring in a synchronised manner throughout the valley during agitations and protests, they said.

The sources said while the exact amount of money being pumped into the stone-pelting business was yet to be estimated, it could be running into lakhs of rupees.

Adding to the woes of policemen were protestors making use of stones and buildingmaterial kept by government agencies on roads for constructionactivities, the sources said.

The Government should ensure completion of work within a time frame as otherwise these materials would come handy for the stone pelters, they said.


Stone pelting a lucrative business in Kashmir valley, mastermind arrested Islamic Terrorism in India


thts the reality of protest

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## Ammyy

*Stone pelting mastermind arrested; protests turn a business in Valley*

Police on Friday arrested a person, alleged to be the kingpin of stonepelters in Kashmir valley, and claimed to have found documents, which suggest this had fast turned into a lucrative 'business' for unemployed youths offering their 'service' for a price. Police had launched a massive drive against
stone pelters in the valley and their investigations led to a house in Bemina colony on outskirts of the city after which they found several documents suggesting his involvement in stone- pelting business for nearly last two years, official sources said in Srinagar today.

The arrested person identified as Irshad Ahmed was interrogated by the police which recovered dozens of SIM cards, threat letters, fake press identity cards, cheque books and well maintained account registers which state the expenditure for stone pelting incidents in various parts of the valley.

The first register contained 294 names along with their photographs and mentions the details of money paid to them for their stone pelting actitivies in the last one year in downtown city, the sources said.

Police claimed to have recovered sketches of roads leading from Ganderbal to Leh, a route used by army personnel to maintain essential supplies to Ladakh division, they said.

Stone pelting mastermind arrested; protests turn a business in Valley - Hindustan Times

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## brain_dead

well done indian army , we are with u always. , crush the bloody traitors.


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## ice_man

Guynextdoor said:


> There's probably no PA in *** at all...what with the bulk of your forces strectched across Swat and all the other WOT zones. Besides, who's scared of the PA anyways (that's a different topic to be taken elsewhere)
> 
> As per the agreement between Jinnah, Mountbatten & Congress, the decision to accede toIndia or Pak was the discretion of the rulers alone and was in no way dependent upon any other factor. Jinnah agreed to it coz he thought that Muslims would automatically accede to pak. When he saw the huge amount of territorial loss that he got because of this misjudgement, he decided to put up a fight for one of the territories in which the ruler, till THEN had not acceded. But since that action itself made him accede to India, all that land automatically comes to India.(Including *** which should have ideally been returned at least by 1971).



 a newbie alert!! 

here we go again brainwashed little indian ranting total nonsense!! 

go read this forum on the "issues you rainsing" and according to your logic of LEADER decides the fate of there people HYDERABAD should have been independant & jungadh should have been part of pakistan!!!


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## RescueRanger

Break the Silence said:


> I will complete this sentence.
> *So What? She is one of the most RETARD mentality in India.And thanx to democracy, she is still alive*.



And your username is Break the Silence...

So much for freedom of speech.


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## Devil Soul

Guynextdoor said:


> High likelihood we'll go after these professionals and *high likelihood it won't be in a court of law*.



Human right record in IOK pretty much point to the same approach taken by IA.


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## brain_dead

i dont understand why our indian members here even have to justify our army's flag march in our territory.
we can do flag march whenevr and wherever we want in our country.
kashmir is our , and will always remain ours , those who dont like this fact , can get the hell out of my country.

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## ice_man

DRDO said:


> *Stone pelting mastermind arrested; protests turn a business in Valley*
> 
> Police on Friday arrested a person, alleged to be the kingpin of stonepelters in Kashmir valley, and claimed to have found documents, which suggest this had fast turned into a lucrative 'business' for unemployed youths offering their 'service' for a price. Police had launched a massive drive against
> stone pelters in the valley and their investigations led to a house in Bemina colony on outskirts of the city after which they found several documents suggesting his involvement in stone- pelting business for nearly last two years, official sources said in Srinagar today.
> 
> The arrested person identified as Irshad Ahmed was interrogated by the police which recovered dozens of SIM cards, threat letters, fake press identity cards, cheque books and well maintained account registers which state the expenditure for stone pelting incidents in various parts of the valley.
> 
> The first register contained 294 names along with their photographs and mentions the details of money paid to them for their stone pelting actitivies in the last one year in downtown city, the sources said.
> 
> Police claimed to have recovered sketches of roads leading from Ganderbal to Leh, a route used by army personnel to maintain essential supplies to Ladakh division, they said.
> 
> Stone pelting mastermind arrested; protests turn a business in Valley - Hindustan Times



AMAZING SOURCE!!! AND EVEN BETTER LOGIC!!! that it is a business!!! but hindustan times great job i am sure 1 billion indians will believe!!

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## Guynextdoor

ice_man said:


> a newbie alert!!
> 
> here we go again brainwashed little indian ranting total nonsense!!
> 
> go read this forum on the "issues you rainsing" and according to your logic of LEADER decides the fate of there people HYDERABAD should have been independant & jungadh should have been part of pakistan!!!


It was YOUR LEADER who agreed to it.


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## Ammyy

ice_man said:


> AMAZING SOURCE!!! AND EVEN BETTER LOGIC!!! that it is a business!!! but hindustan times great job i am sure 1 billion indians will believe!!



Well we are not happy with only rupeenews type article .....

Well Pakistani members not even consider European or American source in any of the anti Pakistani thread like link of Pakistan or ISI in any attack ... 

Please tell which type of source you want to believe 
i think rupeenews type is your top priority ????? right ???

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## IndianArmy

People In Here are Finding False Interpretations for the Flag March.... *Army Conducts flag march to assure people that they are protected and Will be By all means.*...Please Try to Understand this...


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## ice_man

Guynextdoor said:


> It was YOUR LEADER who agreed to it.



little boy you need to wake up and stop following bias media!! here is a start read it knock yourself out! 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/37308-junagadh-dispute-kashmir.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/25153-history-kashmir.html


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## ice_man

DRDO said:


> Well we are not happy with only rupeenews type article .....
> 
> Well Pakistani members not even consider European or American source in any of the anti Pakistani thread like link of Pakistan or ISI in any attack ...
> 
> Please tell which type of source you want to believe
> i think rupeenews type is your top priority ????? right ???



what is ruppee news??? opposite of ndtv,zee news,star news & sahara tv?? *well hindustan times is as reliable as PTV! do you AGREE?*

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## Break the Silence

_Separatists planned to 'martyr' 15 people in J&K._ 

Involvement of hardline separatists in engineering some of the violence in the Kashmir valley is indicated by an intercepted conversation between two of them during which they discussed killing of at least 15 people in a procession near Srinagar on Wednesday. 


Kashmiris throw stones at police men as authorities re-imposed a curfew, during the funeral procession of Abrar Khan in Srinagar on Tuesday. Police fired on hundreds of rock-throwing protesters, killing three and wounding two others. 

*A large procession had started in Budgam district on the outskirts of Srinagar in the evening and two senior office-bearers of the hardline Hurriyat faction led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani discussed how to utilise it to create casualties, according to the transcript of the conversation available with the Home Ministry. *

_According to the transcript, one of the office- bearers, Ghulam Ahmed Dar, was heard telling Shabir Ahmed Wani, another office-bearer, that a procession of nearly 20,000 people had started from Magam and was going towards Budgam. _

_Wani tells Dar, "you guys enjoy payments sitting at home and do nothing." _
*Dar, in his response, says, "the management of crowd becomes difficult later.....it gets difficult to manage the mob later." *

*Dar then ends up by saying, "at least 15 people should be martyred today." *
However in the event, the police dispersed the procession with a mild cane charge and no no untoward incident took place. 



A motorcyclist rides on a deserted highway during a curfew in Panthachowk on the outskirts of Srinagar. The Centre deployed the army in Srinagar for the first time in nearly two decades on Wednesday to quell huge protests that have killed 15 people and threaten to destabilise the region. 

Meanwhile, as curfew was clamped in more areas of Kashmir, Home Minister P Chidambaram on Thursday hoped Army would not be required there for too long and appealed to people of the valley to observe restrictions. 

_Underlining that the purpose of moving in the Army was to "serve as a deterrent", he said, "Army has been kept ready in case it becomes necessary to deploy them." _
Chidambaram said Army will be in Kashmir "as long as it is necessary" to deal with the situation there. "But I sincerely hope that it will not be necessary for too long." 

He emphasised that people should not come out of their homes during curfew and pelt stones. 

"I appeal to Jammu and Kashmir people to observe curfew and stay indoors. Curfew is in place for a couple of days. I am sure the J and K government will be able to relax curfew in a couple of days," he said. 



Union Home Minister P Chidambaram. Chidambaram hoped Army would not be required there for too long and appealed to people of the valley to observe restrictions.

"Parents should ensure that their children remain indoors. It is the responsibility of parents," the Home Minister said, adding "It is important that curfew is enforced and observed by everybody."

He said major share of patrolling and law enforcement was being done by the state police and CRPF and Army was on standby in case there was need for its deployment. 

The Home Minister said Kashmir witnessed "two very minor incidents" of violence yesterday but today he was yet to receive any report on the situation. 

_"Army was deployed at the request of government of Jammu and Kashmir. I am not at liberty to disclose where it has been deployed. But I can assure that most of the places affected are still being patrolled and curfew enforced by J and K Police and paramilitary forces," he told reporters here. _
His comments while briefing on decisions of Cabinet Committee on Economic Affairs came as more areas of Kashmir were brought under curfew today. 

Source: Indian Express


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## Guynextdoor

ice_man said:


> little boy you need to wake up and stop following bias media!! here is a start read it knock yourself out!
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/37308-junagadh-dispute-kashmir.html
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/25153-history-kashmir.html


I'm not your little boy Kid. If your history books teach you anything different that's because your education is kooky. Besides, Kashmir is ours. WHy would I even bother to justfy what we're doing in our territory. Even using a relegious logic we are a bigger islamic nation than you so we understand kashmris better.


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## brain_dead

forget about kashmir.
even pakistan is indian land , and we want our land back, get the hell out of there.

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## ice_man

Guynextdoor said:


> I'm not your little boy Kid. If your history books teach you anything different that's because your education is kooky. Besides, Kashmir is ours. WHy would I even bother to justfy what we're doing in our territory. Even using a relegious logic we are a bigger islamic nation than you so we understand kashmris better.



OK SUNY DEOL!!! whatever makes you sleep at night little boy!! 


@brain dead

pakistan is your land! yes we know your AKHAND BHARAT PLANS! go try and apply for BJRANG DAAL OR RSS!! i am sure you will rise quickly amongst the ranks of its army!


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## Guynextdoor

ice_man said:


> what is ruppee news??? opposite of ndtv,zee news,star news & sahara tv?? *well hindustan times is as reliable as PTV! do you AGREE?*


So you don't see any difference between one balding man spewing out his lunacies in his old age as his brain decays and a newspaper that even George Bush wants to attend events of?


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## ice_man

Guynextdoor said:


> So you don't see any difference between one balding man spewing out his lunacies in his old age as his brain decays and a newspaper that even George Bush wants to attend events of?



 GEORGE BUSH!!! & old man...lunacies?? 

but no i like the GEROGE BUSH part!!


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## Guynextdoor

ice_man said:


> OK SUNY DEOL!!! whatever makes you sleep at night little boy!!
> 
> 
> @brain dead
> 
> pakistan is your land! yes we know your AKHAND BHARAT PLANS! go try and apply for BJRANG DAAL OR RSS!! i am sure you will rise quickly amongst the ranks of its army!


R u for real? Your thread had Zaid Hamid videos on it. Is that what you asked me to refer to to learn istory from? You r seriously out of you mind dude.


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## RescueRanger

brain_dead said:


> forget about kashmir.
> even pakistan is indian land , and we want our land back, get the hell out of there.



Wow 18 posts and already showing your true colours... Your signature suits you well. How about we keep what is ours and if you have a problem, you know where the "door" is.

Good Bye!


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## IBRIS

Move along people, another retard trying to win sympathy points. She loves attention. 

Only Pakistanis think she's an angel for her anti Indian views.


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## RescueRanger

IBRIS said:


> Move along people, another retard trying to win sympathy points. She loves attention.
> 
> Only Pakistanis think she's an angel for her anti Indian views.



Would it be any different if it were the other way around? Get Real!


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## brain_dead

RescueRanger said:


> Wow 18 posts and already showing your true colours... Your signature suits you well. How about we keep what is ours and if you have a problem, you know where the "door" is.
> 
> Good Bye!



u see , this is called shifting the burden on others' shoulders.
why pakistan always cry about kashmir ..?? becoz braindead indian diplomats let them do this.
if india start putting thier claim on whole of pakistan , pakistan will forget about kashmir then.


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## jha

Yeah she is enjoying her freedom of speech..let her enjoy..
BTW is she pi$$ed off because *AZAD *was liberated from his miserable life lately...

what will be her reaction when *Kishen jee * meets same fate...

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## Break the Silence

RescueRanger said:


> And your username is Break the Silence...
> 
> So much for freedom of speech.



Meaning of "Break the silence" always have different meaning for different people..And as far as freedom of speech is concerned, Yes , she is surviving coz India is not China And even Pakistan.

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## gubbi

brain_dead said:


> u see , this is called shifting the burden on others' shoulders.
> why pakistan always cry about kashmir ..?? becoz braindead indian diplomats let them do this.
> if india start putting thier claim on whole of pakistan , pakistan will forget about kashmir then.



Back off and chillax, brain_dead. What you are saying is wrong. So dont bring this shyte up again.

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## Areesh

brain_dead said:


> forget about kashmir.
> even pakistan is indian land , and we want our land back, get the hell out of there.



That is why it is bad to use drugs and getting addicted to it.

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## Break the Silence

jha said:


> Yeah she is enjoying her freedom of speech..let her enjoy..
> BTW is she pi$$ed off because *AZAD *was liberated from his miserable life lately...
> 
> what will be her reaction when *Kishen jee * meets same fate...



She will died after the shock of loosing her 4th husband!!

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## ice_man

brain_dead said:


> u see , this is called shifting the burden on others' shoulders.
> why pakistan always cry about kashmir ..?? becoz braindead indian diplomats let them do this.
> if india start putting thier claim on whole of pakistan , pakistan will forget about kashmir then.



 please please i beg you stop i can't laugh anymore!!! "lay claim to whole of pakistan" seriously boy are you any way related to RSS,BAJRANGDALL or sunny deol???

do you want *"AKHAND BHARAT"*  


MODS I REQUEST YOU PLEASE DON'T BAN THIS COMEDIAN!! he is interesting!!

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## Devil Soul

brain_dead said:


> u see , this is called shifting the burden on others' shoulders.
> why pakistan always cry about kashmir ..?? becoz braindead indian diplomats let them do this.
> if india start putting thier claim on whole of pakistan , pakistan will forget about kashmir then.



come and get it


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## gubbi

Imran Khan said:


> arundhati on BBC urdu abut kashmir voilence . she her self think indian army is occupaid kashmir. and killing innocents.voileteing rules .
> 
> 
> click link for her conversation with BBC urdu
> 
> *?BBC Urdu? - ????? ?????? - ????? ???? ???? ???????*



Imran miyan, that woman also thinks that Maoists are fighting a just cause, by killing all the police personnel and civilians. She supports the Naxals!!

Do you also support her statements?

That shameful woman has let a little success go to her head. She has clearly lost her bearings and just because she lives in India and is an Indian citizen, the GoI is tolerating her. Not that she makes any sense and is any troublemaker.

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## RescueRanger

brain_dead said:


> u see , this is called shifting the burden on others' shoulders.
> why pakistan always cry about kashmir ..?? becoz braindead indian diplomats let them do this.
> if india start putting thier claim on whole of pakistan , pakistan will forget about kashmir then.



Oh please! It's called geo-politics! Your logical is flawed, if that were the case why does Shin Fein still moan even after independence? Why are there still tensions between UK and Argentina?

Meri Jan, what claim does India have on the Whole of Pakistan? That's about as absurd as saying the moon is made of cheese. Of course you do remember that the original map drawn by the British fool included Kashmir in Pakistani territory

I personally don't care much for Kashmir, just give them a referendum and let them decide. This has dragged on for far too long.


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## gubbi

RescueRanger said:


> Would it be any different if it were the other way around? Get Real!



RR, this woman also supports the Naxals - a group classified as 'Terrorist organization' by GoI. Do you also support her other views?
Doesnt that make her a terrorist supporter? And you people support her statements, just because they agree with your pov?

Doesnt that sound hypocritical?

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## brain_dead

RescueRanger said:


> Oh please! It's called geo-politics! Your logical is flawed, if that were the case why does Shin Fein still moan even after independence? Why are there still tensions between UK and Argentina?
> 
> Meri Jan, what claim does India have on the Whole of Pakistan? That's about as absurd as saying the moon is made of cheese. Of course you do remember that the original map drawn by the British fool included Kashmir in Pakistani territory&#8230;
> 
> I personally don't care much for Kashmir, just give them a referendum and let them decide. This has dragged on for far too long.



i know it very well , that india has no claim over pakistan , its just that 
this balooney claim may actually prove helpful in diverting the whole tension , and kashmir will automatically be out of discussion.


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## jha

Let the supporters of terrorists dig a grave for themselves by paying them...lets see how long can they support these terrorists financially..

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## RescueRanger

gubbi said:


> RR, this woman also supports the Naxals - a group classified as 'Terrorist organization' by GoI. Do you also support her other views?
> Doesnt that make her a terrorist supporter? And you people support her statements, just because they agree with your pov?
> 
> Doesnt that sound hypocritical?



Fair Enough Gubbi... And i never stated i supported her, i was just shocked at "Break the Silence"' statement. 

Anyway, i wish no ILL onto india or her people. Wish you the best with your internal issues. 

Regards,


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## Break the Silence

RescueRanger said:


> Fair Enough Gubbi... And i never stated i supported her, i was just shocked at "Break the Silence"' statement.
> 
> Anyway, i wish no ILL onto india or her people. Wish you the best with your internal issues.
> 
> Regards,



Resuce, why you shocked at my statement,tell me please???????


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## RescueRanger

Break the Silence said:


> Resuce, why you shocked at my statement,tell me please???????



Well because of this:


> So What? She is one of the most RETARD mentality in India.And thanx to democracy, she is still alive.



Not very polite is it?


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## Raghu

Arundhati roy is sort of person of who takes contrarian view just promote herself as champion for people who are fighting against the system...u know appeal to the under dog romanticism .

Here she is taking the separatist propaganda line for Kashmir and Maoist line on Maoist problem minus the rationalism and level head approach required to resolve these conflict and bring peace to a Pakistani anchor trying hard to bring religious angle while comparing Kashmir with Maoist problem.

Pakistanis shouldn't be happy,if she goes Pakistan she'll talk about Baluchistan and pervasive hold of army on ur country.

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## Break the Silence

RescueRanger said:


> Well because of this:
> 
> 
> Not very polite is it?



Well, Even she has not polite views either


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Future escalation btw the nuclear armed neighbours is highly likely to take place if the Kashmir dispute is not resolved. Its the main cause of unrest. I hope now everybody should recognize the legitimate concerns of Pakistan wrt India.

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## Break the Silence

jha said:


> Let the supporters of terrorists dig a grave for themselves by paying them...lets see how long can they support these terrorists financially..



But question is this, how long Innocents have to suffer this??


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## Gene

these separatist's mind are getting more dirtier day by day.some are planning to martyr people,some are attending anti-india campaign in pak.

GOI should not tolerate them anymore........


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## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> That is why it is bad to use drugs and getting addicted to it.



Well some were i read that in Pakistan drugs caught in highest amount by police and army so this pic suits you best 

Pakistan has highest seizures of narcotics in the world &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## Raghu

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The operation never got to the point where the infiltrators could spark an insurgency, so arguing 'how many locals helped them' would be premature - they did manage to do that in 1989 though.
> 
> But back to the point, again, a shepherd or two tipping off the IA on the presence of suspicious individuals does not lend itself to extrapolating the sentiments of millions.



OK,,lets juggle ur memory about Kargil days.That was in 1998 .

In that three months long conflict *there wasn't single demo against Indian Army or in support of the intruders who Pakistan declared as Kashmir freedom fighters .*

In fact that time around too it's a shia Kashmir muslim Shepherd of Kargil , who told Indian troops about the presence of Pakistani intruders in Kargil heights.

*So, u better learn that there is nothing left for Pakistan in Kashmir and stop wasting ur limited resources on Kashmir . Now the issue is only between the state of India and peope of the Kashmir valley*.(Jammu and Laddak are firmly with India)


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## Patriot

DRDO said:


> Well some were i read that in Pakistan drugs caught in highest amount by police and army so this pic suits you best
> 
> Pakistan has highest seizures of narcotics in the world  The Express Tribune


Yeah, Pakistan has highest seizures of narcotics which means Pakistan is doing good job at getting rid of drugs where as 
BBC NEWS | South Asia | UN report flags up India drug use
A new report has highlighted increasing concern over the rise in drug abuse in north-eastern India.

The prevalence of intravenous drug-taking has had a serious impact on the spread of HIV and Aids in the region, the report says.

It is also concerned by weak border controls with Burma which allow the easy trafficking of heroin into India.

The report was published by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime and the Indian government.

India has long been recognised as a transit route for drug traffickers moving heroin from the opium producing areas of Afghanistan and Burma and on through India to the rest of the world.

Inevitably that has led to a rise in heroin addiction within India itself over the years.

But this new report highlights the growing concern over the abuse not just of opiates, but a range of pharmaceutical products.

Injected

Ironically, it is the tightening of controls on heroin trafficking that has forced many drug users to switch to "over-the-counter" medicines often sold illegally by unscrupulous pharmacists.

These have to be injected rather than smoked, which has drastically increased the spread of HIV infection not just within the drug using group, but to their sexual partners as well.

There is, says the report, an urgent need for gathering better data on drug use and HIV infection from the remote north-east states of India, and for drug-user support programmes at the local level.

One approach the report says has been particularly effective is the involvement of reformed drug addicts to work within the community helping current users overcome their own addiction.


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## RescueRanger

DRDO said:


> Well some were i read that in Pakistan drugs caught in highest amount by police and army so this pic suits you best
> 
> Pakistan has highest seizures of narcotics in the world  The Express Tribune



LOL... You shot your own foot off with this link.That only show's how good we are "stopping" drugs hitting the streets, read "Seizures" not "consumption"..  

Gotta love ANF.


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## Bang Galore

RescueRanger said:


> Wow 18 posts and already showing your true colours... Your signature suits you well. *How about we keep what is ours and if you have a problem, you know where the "door" is.*
> 
> Good Bye!




Hey, that the GoI's policy and one that 1.2 billion of us agree with. A bit funny that you also agree. Maybe we aren't that different after all.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Kinetic said:


> No! they should know the force behind staging all these...
> 
> 
> "The conversation is between two separatists, Ghulam Ahmad Dar and Shabir Ahmed Wani.




You mean between _Ghulam Ahmad Dar aka Major Kumar and Shabir Ahmed Wani aka Lt. Subramaniyan_ of the IA ...


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## Sudesh Lahri

^^^My friend this is not pakistan.

Indian home ministry statement carries credibility that it deserves. Not like rehman malik who says kasab is not pakistani the first day and later accept him as a pakistani.

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## Dr.Evil

It was always know that they are " Kiraye ke Tattu " who will sell their mothers for money.

They should be shot in the main street.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Sudesh Lahri said:


> ^^^My friend this is not pakistan.
> 
> Indian home ministry statement carries credibility that it deserves. Not like rehman malik who says kasab is not pakistani the first day and later accept him as a pakistani.



What credibility? 

This is the same government that continues to blame Pakistani institutions for planning and executing the Mumbai attacks without a lick of evidence, and in the past repeatedly blamed Pakistani institutions for almost every single attack that occurred in India.

The IA is the same IA that made false claims of the PA torturing captured Indian soldiers during Kargil, and was exposed by some journalists in the Indian media itself. 

The only 'credibility' you have is with people wishing to make a buck off you and will say 'ji ji' so long as they can keep making that buck, and even there its more of a 'looking the other way' than actual 'credibility'.

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## ramu

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> What credibility?
> 
> This is the same government that continues to blame Pakistani institutions for planning and executing the Mumbai attacks without a lick of evidence, and in the past repeatedly blamed Pakistani institutions for almost every single attack that occurred in India.
> 
> The IA is the same IA that made false claims of the PA torturing captured Indian soldiers during Kargil, and was exposed by some journalists in the Indian media itself.
> 
> The only 'credibility' you have is with people wishing to make a buck off you and will say 'ji ji' so long as they can keep making that buck, and even there its more of a 'looking the other way' than actual 'credibility'.



AM, I can show several threads where you have supported JuD for its "work" and now the GoP has banned it. So lack of evidence is not holding you govt. back when Pak is under fire...

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## Kinetic

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> You mean between _Ghulam Ahmad Dar aka Major Kumar and Shabir Ahmed Wani aka Lt. Subramaniyan_ of the IA ...



Ideally saying GoI or people of India those elects them don't believe in conspiracy theories. These are always 180 degree away from truth and doesn't match with realities.


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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The IA is the same IA that made false claims of the PA torturing captured Indian soldiers during Kargil, and was *exposed by some journalists in the Indian media itself*.



We all would like to see the source to that claim, please. IIRC the torture claims were proven to be true.

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## bc040400065

*Protests in Indian Kashmir*
*Stony ground*

A new round of anti-government unrest 
Jul 8th 2010 | Srinagar 

Street life in Srinagar 






FOR the first time in more than a decade, the Indian army was called out this week on the streets of Srinagar, in the Indian-administered Kashmir valley, where 15 people have been killed during the past month. In earlier years people have died in the struggle between the security forces and a local insurgency backed by Pakistan-assisted militants. Now it is the local police and Indian paramilitary forces causing the deaths by firing guns and tear-gas shells at stone-throwing mobs. *The protesters are young. The youngest to die was just nine. *

*This cycle of protests began on June 11th, when a 17-year-old youth was killed by a tear-gas shell near Srinagar&#8217;s main mosque, a focal point for protests.* Police at first wrongly claimed the youth had been murdered to foment trouble, and Palaniappan Chidambaram, India&#8217;s home minister, blamed Pakistan for allowing militants to cross the &#8220;line of control&#8221; that divides Pakistani-controlled Kashmir and the Indian state of Jammu & Kashmir. 

Anger at these claims helped spread protests across the Kashmir valley, leading to 11 deaths and several days of curfews and bandhs (politically inspired strikes) that crippled business and closed schools. Buses were burned and police posts attacked. There was a brief lull as separatist leaders advised people to go shopping to stock up for a week of planned demonstrations against the killings, and in favour of greater political autonomy. 

The lull ended when two people were killed on July 6th. One drowned fleeing the security forces. The other, a 25-year-old woman, was hit by a stray bullet at the window of her home. Two more deaths followed on July 7th and anger increased when security forces beat people in funeral processions. This led to the army being called in to stage order-restoring marches through the worst-hit areas.

Stone-throwing emerged as the main form of Kashmiri protest in 2008, when more than 50 people died in unrest over land allocated for an annual pilgrimage to Amarnath, a Hindu shrine in a mainly Muslim area of the state. This pilgrimage regularly stokes Muslim-Hindu tensions, partly because of its increasing size&#8212;over 50,000 pilgrims are taking part this year.

But the underlying cause of the latest violence is the disenchantment of mostly jobless young people after two decades of street battles, bandhs, and curfews. They have been disappointed in hopes for both economic development and some form of autonomy from the government in Delhi. 

The authorities both there and at the state level have been treating the protests as a continuation of the secessionist insurgency that began in 1989, and has been backed by Pakistan, which claims Kashmir. Militants are still infiltrating from Pakistan, but the protests now are primarily acts of civil disobedience. The organisers say they would be fairly peaceful if they were handled sensitively. Police officers, however, say that neither India&#8217;s paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force nor the state police have had post-insurgency training in how to control civilian mobs without killing protesters and bystanders. 

State politics are making things worse. Mehbooba Mufti Sayeed, leader of the People&#8217;s Democratic Party, the main opposition in the state legislature, is encouraging demonstrations against the government and the security forces to embarrass the government and its weak chief minister, Omar Abdullah, of the National Conference party. A scion of the state&#8217;s leading political dynasty, Mr Abdullah became its youngest-ever chief minister early last year. But the new approach he promised has not materialised. His calls for a gentler touch have fallen on deaf ears.

Protests in Indian Kashmir: Stony ground | The Economist


----------



## bc040400065

*Kashmir streets under army lockdown to end protest*
By AIJAZ HUSSAIN (AP)  6 hours ago

SRINAGAR, India  Tens of thousands of soldiers patrolled the streets in Indian-controlled Kashmir on Thursday to enforce a rigid curfew aimed at ending weeks of violent anti-government protests.

Shops and schools were closed, streets ringed with barbed wire were deserted, the region's nearly 60 newspapers were unable to publish and even residents with special curfew passes were barred from going outside.

Despite the curfew, the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, an umbrella organization of separatist groups, issued a statement calling for more protests, saying, "Military measures will in no way be able to break the will of the people."

The tension in the Himalayan region  divided between India and Pakistan  was reminiscent of the late 1980s, when protests against Indian rule sparked an armed conflict that eventually killed more than 68,000 people, mostly civilians.

Residents say security forces have killed 15 people in the recent protests. The government's decision to send the army to quell the protests was intended to prevent them from spiraling out of control and igniting another insurgency.

"The army will be deployed as long as it is necessary, but I sincerely hope it will not be necessary for too long," Indian Home Minister Palaniappan Chidambaram said.

He appealed to residents to observe the curfew and to parents to keep their teenage sons  who have been at the forefront of some of the violent protests  indoors.

"It is important that people do not come into the street and start stone pelting," he said.

Indian army soldiers in armored vehicles and carrying assault rifles and machine guns drove Thursday through neighborhoods in Srinagar, the main city, in a show of force.

Col. Vineet Sood, an Indian army spokesman, said the soldiers were giving support to the local forces. "We are ready to move anywhere, anytime," he said.

However, there were risks that using the army  instead of the police and paramilitary troops that usually deal with civil unrest  could further inflame residents, who accuse the military of being a brutal occupying force.

"The army has always been India's first and last resort in handling Kashmir," Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, a key separatist leader, said in a statement. "Its ever-increasing presence in the state, whether in the barracks or on the streets, has been intended to consolidate its control over the territory and to intimidate people."

The Indian army is ubiquitous in Kashmir, but its operations are usually aimed at combating insurgents and it has not been used in crowd control since major street protests in 1990.

India and Pakistan have fought two wars over the region. India regularly accuses Pakistan of sending insurgents over the heavily militarized frontier to stir trouble and has blamed the recent protests on Pakistani-based militants bent on destabilizing India, a charge Pakistan denies.

Kashmiri separatists are demanding independence from Hindu-majority India or a merger with Muslim-majority Pakistan.

Even with the curfew in force, hundreds of doctors and other employees at the S.K. Institute of Medical Sciences, a government hospital in Srinagar, held a protest inside their compound, denouncing the restrictions and chanting anti-India slogans. Police and paramilitary troops later dispersed them, a police officer said on condition of anonymity, citing department policy.

On Wednesday night, thousands of protesters defied the restrictions and held street protests for several hours. Pro-independence songs rang out overnight from the public address systems of several mosques, as they had in the months before the insurgency broke out two decades ago. Troops did not intervene and no clashes broke out.

With authorities canceling curfew passes given to journalists, none of nearly 60 newspapers published from Srinagar hit the stands Thursday. Many reporters spent the night in their offices.

"Not allowing media persons to move and cover the situation is tantamount to banning the media," the Press Guild of Kashmir said, denouncing "curbs and the use of force against media persons."

The Associated Press: Kashmir streets under army lockdown to end protest


----------



## airuah

Separatist leaders behind Kashmir violence

Separatist leaders behind Kashmir violence - India News - IBNLive

New Delhi: Leaders of separatist organisation Hurriyat Conference are behind the sudden spurt in incidents of stone pelting on security forces.
Intercepts of conversation between hardline leaders of Syed Ali Shah Geelani's Hurriyat faction which is with the Intelligence Bureau and has been accessed by CNN-IBN show that separatist leaders instigating the mob to indulge in stone pelting.
Two office-bearers of Hurriyat - Ghulam Ahmed Dar and Shabir Ahmed Wani - are caught on tape discussing getting 15 people killed in a procession that took place in Srinagar on Wednesday.

According to the transcript Dar was heard telling Wani that a procession of nearly 20,000 people had started from Magam and was going towards Budgam.
The intercept reveals Shabir Ahmed Wani telling Dar, "You guys enjoy payments sitting at home and do nothing." Dar, in his response, says "it gets difficult to manage the mob later." Dar then adds, "At least 15 people should be martyred today."
But PDP chief Mehbooba Mufti blames the state and Central Government for the violence.
"The state government is branding the people anti-national instead of providing a healing touch. We have got used to such leaks. Whenever there is trouble there are people who fish in troubled waters," she says.
Security and intelligence agencies have been claiming that stone pelting incidents are not spontaneous and separatist leaders are instigating the mobs.

---------- Post added at 11:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 PM ----------

Separatist leaders behind Kashmir violence

Separatist leaders behind Kashmir violence - India News - IBNLive

New Delhi: Leaders of separatist organisation Hurriyat Conference are behind the sudden spurt in incidents of stone pelting on security forces.
Intercepts of conversation between hardline leaders of Syed Ali Shah Geelani's Hurriyat faction which is with the Intelligence Bureau and has been accessed by CNN-IBN show that separatist leaders instigating the mob to indulge in stone pelting.
Two office-bearers of Hurriyat - Ghulam Ahmed Dar and Shabir Ahmed Wani - are caught on tape discussing getting 15 people killed in a procession that took place in Srinagar on Wednesday.

According to the transcript Dar was heard telling Wani that a procession of nearly 20,000 people had started from Magam and was going towards Budgam.
The intercept reveals Shabir Ahmed Wani telling Dar, "You guys enjoy payments sitting at home and do nothing." Dar, in his response, says "it gets difficult to manage the mob later." Dar then adds, "At least 15 people should be martyred today."
But PDP chief Mehbooba Mufti blames the state and Central Government for the violence.
"The state government is branding the people anti-national instead of providing a healing touch. We have got used to such leaks. Whenever there is trouble there are people who fish in troubled waters," she says.
Security and intelligence agencies have been claiming that stone pelting incidents are not spontaneous and separatist leaders are instigating the mobs.


----------



## Dr.Evil

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> You mean between _Ghulam Ahmad Dar aka Major Kumar and Shabir Ahmed Wani aka Lt. Subramaniyan_ of the IA ...



Any Iota of proof about the above statement. Aren't you just trolling ??

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## Cynic Waheed

So much for the Indian fella's here who were arguing with me the other day that Indian occupied Kashmir wanted to stay part of India. All the talk of integrity and foreign intrusion is plain BS. The fact is Kashmiri's don't want to do anything with India. They want freedom and God willing one day they will get it. A slap on the face of the world's largest democracy which intentionally and blatantly ignores Kasmir's basic demands. A 'democracy' that wont shy to blame others for its own problems and try to fool the world by sitting comfortably behind veil of 'victimisation' when its clearly the other way round. Reminds me of Obama's statement: You can put lipstick on a pig but it will still remain a pig!


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## Areesh

airuah said:


> Separatist leaders behind Kashmir violence
> 
> Separatist leaders behind Kashmir violence - India News - IBNLive
> 
> New Delhi: Leaders of separatist organisation Hurriyat Conference are behind the sudden spurt in incidents of stone pelting on security forces.
> Intercepts of conversation between hardline leaders of Syed Ali Shah Geelani's Hurriyat faction which is with the Intelligence Bureau and has been accessed by CNN-IBN show that separatist leaders instigating the mob to indulge in stone pelting.
> Two office-bearers of Hurriyat - Ghulam Ahmed Dar and Shabir Ahmed Wani - are caught on tape discussing getting 15 people killed in a procession that took place in Srinagar on Wednesday.
> 
> According to the transcript Dar was heard telling Wani that a procession of nearly 20,000 people had started from Magam and was going towards Budgam.
> The intercept reveals Shabir Ahmed Wani telling Dar, "You guys enjoy payments sitting at home and do nothing." Dar, in his response, says "it gets difficult to manage the mob later." Dar then adds, "At least 15 people should be martyred today."
> But PDP chief Mehbooba Mufti blames the state and Central Government for the violence.
> "The state government is branding the people anti-national instead of providing a healing touch. We have got used to such leaks. Whenever there is trouble there are people who fish in troubled waters," she says.
> Security and intelligence agencies have been claiming that stone pelting incidents are not spontaneous and separatist leaders are instigating the mobs.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 PM ----------
> 
> Separatist leaders behind Kashmir violence
> 
> Separatist leaders behind Kashmir violence - India News - IBNLive
> 
> New Delhi: Leaders of separatist organisation Hurriyat Conference are behind the sudden spurt in incidents of stone pelting on security forces.
> Intercepts of conversation between hardline leaders of Syed Ali Shah Geelani's Hurriyat faction which is with the Intelligence Bureau and has been accessed by CNN-IBN show that separatist leaders instigating the mob to indulge in stone pelting.
> Two office-bearers of Hurriyat - Ghulam Ahmed Dar and Shabir Ahmed Wani - are caught on tape discussing getting 15 people killed in a procession that took place in Srinagar on Wednesday.
> 
> According to the transcript Dar was heard telling Wani that a procession of nearly 20,000 people had started from Magam and was going towards Budgam.
> The intercept reveals Shabir Ahmed Wani telling Dar, "You guys enjoy payments sitting at home and do nothing." Dar, in his response, says "it gets difficult to manage the mob later." Dar then adds, "At least 15 people should be martyred today."
> But PDP chief Mehbooba Mufti blames the state and Central Government for the violence.
> "The state government is branding the people anti-national instead of providing a healing touch. We have got used to such leaks. Whenever there is trouble there are people who fish in troubled waters," she says.
> Security and intelligence agencies have been claiming that stone pelting incidents are not spontaneous and separatist leaders are instigating the mobs.



A propaganda article worth nothing more than a toilet paper.


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## Fireurimagination

I guess these protests, stone throwing etc is the new challenge thrown at the administration by the separatists and their supporters and I think it's about time instead of soft pedaling the issue, the government should handle the matter China style, I fail to understand why is the state/central government so soft with these anti-national people

For long these people (separatists and their supporters) have been given the kid glove treatment and I believe it's time that Omar Abdullah government and the center deal with them with a heavy hand, after every stone throwing incidence the government should round up, book and throw the people who indulge in vandalism behind bars and don't release them untill their respective families bail them out with say 5,000 bucks and an undertaking that the same wont be repeated, the same thing is done else where in the country


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## Bas_tum_Pak

*Kashmir is Surrounded by Indian Army - No News paper published today*(BBC News)

In Indian Administrated Kashmir on Thursday the situation is very tense, because of restrictions on media activities no newspaper published, normal life is suspended and two days against the military siege of several parts of Kashmir protest march continues.

BBC urdu News Link

_Why india banned all the media activities ? it means india don't want to show the real face to world.
this will happen when you crush people by power .. Kashmir will free inshALLAH very Soon..

Zulm Jab had se Bahrta ha tu Mit jata ha .._


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## Dr.Evil

Bas_tum_Pak said:


> *Kashmir is Surrounded by Indian Army - No News paper published today*(BBC News)
> 
> In Indian Administrated Kashmir on Thursday the situation is very tense, because of restrictions on media activities no newspaper published, normal life is suspended and two days against the military siege of several parts of Kashmir protest march continues.
> 
> BBC urdu News Link
> 
> _Why india banned all the media activities ? it means india don't want to show the real face to world.
> this will happen when you crush people by power .. Kashmir will free inshALLAH very Soon..
> 
> Zulm Jab had se Bahrta ha tu Mit jata ha .._



Why did you get that Idea of media restrictions, This news is being widely reported on Indian aswell as international media.

Whole of J&K will become part of India and we will kickout pak occupiers from Kashmir - Inshallah.

Please google around before posting.


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## Panditji

The issue of local media restrictions is very simple. If there is a local journalist, it is very easy for vested interests to silence him/her because of local equations and vulnerability to threats of life and limb.

National media from outside the valley makes arrangements for security, and are not that susceptible - the national media is reporting without any restrictions from the valley.

If the Hurriyat and its stooges can pay 300/- per head for stone pelting, and mobilize a mob through systematic payments, why, even have 'targets of martyrdom', it can easily manage local press. That is the reason for the downfall of local press in Kashmir valley.

It is a very asymmetric war to fight, because only one side is under obligations to follow rules.


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## Hulk

I have a suggestion we should pick these separatist and send them to remote place and do nothing. Just move Gellani out of Kashmir for 1 year maybe TN or Port Blair or somewhere remote. Also identify the regular stone pelters and put them Bihar jail. This is the solution. I am positive we will be out of this, ISI is working with separatist on new tricks, we will also learn to handle them for sure.


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## DesiGuy

Bas_tum_Pak said:


> _*Why india banned all the media activities ? it means india don't want to show the real face to world.
> this will happen when you crush people by power* .. Kashmir will free inshALLAH very Soon..
> 
> 
> 
> Should have tell this same to china during riots in xinjiang!!!
> 
> but no, as china is friend to pakistan.
> 
> 
> all this crying or at least pretending is nothing for pakistan government. give them a chance and they will take over Kashmir without thinking how many will die at than._

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

ramu said:


> AM, I can show several threads where you have supported JuD for its "work" and now the GoP has banned it. So lack of evidence is not holding you govt. back when Pak is under fire...



The JuD has been 'banned' since the UNSC sanctions on it - and yes, it is also fact that the JuD ran several charitable works such as clinics, schools, orphanages etc. which is commendable work - but what does anything in your post have to do with my post you responded to?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> We all would like to see the source to that claim, please. IIRC the torture claims were proven to be true.


_*
Lies out of control September 1999​* 

A couple of months after the Kargil conflict, some intense soul-searching by the Indian print and electronic media is revealing that much of the national press meekly toed the government line and fanned war hysteria at the cost of objectivity and professional ethics.

Prominent journalists have come out with scathing indictments of the Indian media and their contents are indeed shocking for what it portends.

The Times of Indias Sidddharth Varadarajan writes that Indian Foreign Minister Jaswant Singhs allegationmade at the height of the Kargil conflictthat the bodies of six dead Indian soldiers were "severely mutilated" by Pakistanis, was never substantiated. "Virtually every newspaper carried the gory details released by an Indian wire service without waiting for independent confirmation. Such confirmation never arrived... During the war itself, at least two newspapers received information that the allegation was highly exaggeratedprobably only one of the bodies bore signs of mutilation. But the journalists who received the information, chose to remain silent."

Varadarajan has also revealed that a newspaper and a magazine received reports from its correspondents at the war-front that Indian soldiers had mutilated the dead bodies of Pakistani soldiers in retaliation. But after heated editorial debates, it was decided to kill these storiesat least until the fighting was over.

"The Indian media was on test as to how fairly it would report and interpret. But overall, it failed miserably," says columnist Praful Bidwai. "The general style of reports was: 50 Pakistanis killed and 11 gallant Indian soldiers laid down their lives. So our boys became dedicated soldiers and Pakistanis barbarians; our leaders are mature politicians and theirs prisoners of dark forces. It is upto the government to say all that. Why should the media?"

N. Ram, editor of Frontline magazine, said that the distinction between the reporter and the armyman was blurred during the fighting. "Objectivity was the biggest casualty in the coverage of the Kargil conflict," according to another weekly, Outlook, which also said that journalists chose to become participants instead of remaining objective observers in the revered war correspondent tradition.

Analysts have also accused independent TV news channels of becoming a propaganda wing of the state by suppressing the truth and glamourising war. Giving instances of censorship and manipulation, Bidwai said that recycled stock pictures were frequently presented as live footage.

Another commentator, Sagarika Ghose, wrote that no attempt was made by print or TV journalists "to scrutinise the role of the military from the citizens point of view". TV, she said, has a duty to make sure that legions of jobless young men dont unthinkingly give themselves to the army in order to die for their country because of a false bravado. "We were shown [puzzlingly] brave parents promising to send more sons to the front if need be. What about parents who were sad? What about parents who cried and said I want this war to stop and I dont want my son to die?"

Analysts said that even if soldiers in Kargil couldnt voice their doubts about the war before television cameras, reporters should have dutifully paraphrased their fears to project a balanced picture. The Indian media also failed to question the official figure of 410 dead and 594 injured in six weeks of intense fighting in one of the worlds most treacherous battlegrounds. "How is it possible that casualties on the Pakistani side were higheras India claimswhen they had all the advantage of higher ground? The Indians should have suffered higher casualties than the Pakistanis," said Arthur Max, New Delhi bureau chief of Associated Press.

Another senior journalist of The Times of India, Jug Suraiya criticised the coverage of the shooting of a Pakistani plane in the Kutch region soon after the Kargil conflict. Wrote Suraiya: "Was the wreckage of the Pakistani reconnaissance aircraft really retrieved from Indian territory or, as circumstantial evidence indicated, was it salvaged from across the border to give the prime minister a vote-catching photo opportunity?"

"The suppression of truth...and the dissemination of half-truths and innuendoes did not save lives. All it did was undermine the reputation of the Indian media," warned Varadarajan. Perhaps the most insightful comment came from Seema Mustafa, political editor of The Asian Age, who pointed out that the Kargil conflict exposed the warts and the moles the Indian media has managed to camouflage over the years._

Himal Southasian/News Archive

=================


> The return of six tortured bodies of Indian soldiers by Pakistan on June 10, 1999, is an incident,108 which, in addition to inflaming passions (the perceived force multiplier effect), also revealed the loss of restraint and objectivity in the media. Siddharth Vardarajan observes that:
> 
> _Virtually every newspaper carried the gory details released by an Indian wire service without waiting for independent confirmation. Such confirmation never arrived. probably only one of the bodies bore signs of mutilation​_
> 
> The issue here is not about the veracity of the torture. To manage emotions and balance them efficaciously with judicious observation is a hallmark of conflict reportage. The semantics of reportage in this case led to a proliferation of exaggerated stories about the mutilation, since certain sections of the media presumed that to contradict or question would appear unpatriotic or anti-national:
> 
> _All of this is shocking and deeply reprehensible. Nevertheless, it does not amount to mutilation. But the mutilation story  which so inflamed passions in India  remained in print because we (emphasis added) felt that to contradict the army would be unpatriotic and demoralizing.​_
> The Media in Terror


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Dr.Evil said:


> Any Iota of proof about the above statement. Aren't you just trolling ??


Any iota of proof that the alleged 'intercept' is not one faked by the Indian authorities?


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## blueoval79

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Any iota of proof that the alleged 'intercept' is not one faked by the Indian authorities?



Any iota of proof that the intercept is faked?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

blueoval79 said:


> Any iota of proof that the intercept is faked?


Since you have no evidence to support the veracity of these alleged intercepts, nor can I negate them - the article is better discarded as an unverifiable piece of work.

However, these reports of the alleged intercepts are from the Indian authorities and Indian media, and as pointed out earlier, their histrionics about Pakistani institutions being involved in the Mumbai attacks, without any evidence whatsoever, indicate a pattern of deception, lies and propaganda to malign the other side in order to further their objectives.

In the current situation in Kashmir, the Indian authorities have every motive to malign the other side and try and paint these protests as anything but spontaneous and a reflection of deep disenchantment with Indian occupation and subjugation of Kashmiris.


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## blueoval79

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Since you have no evidence to support the veracity of these alleged intercepts, nor can I negate them - the article is better discarded as an unverifiable piece of work.


Exactly... the problem the truth will never come out..and both sides will continue to blame each other....

But One thing to be noted is ...that there is no counter to this intercept theory coming from the so called separatists as well...so the common logic goes ...if you don't reply to the allegation ...the chances are that the allegations are valid.




> However, these reports of the alleged intercepts are from the Indian authorities and Indian media, and as pointed out earlier, their histrionics about Pakistani institutions being involved in the Mumbai attacks, without any evidence whatsoever, indicate a pattern of deception, lies and propaganda to malign the other side in order to further their objectives.


Well....then the other side has all the right to counter the allegations with proofs that the allegations are a hoax..but that has not happened yet....so I would rather wait and see how things play out.




> In the current situation in Kashmir, the Indian authorities have every motive to malign the other side and try and paint these protests as anything but spontaneous and a reflection of deep disenchantment with Indian occupation and subjugation of Kashmiris.



On the other hand if the so called separatist leaders are unable to prove that the allegations are fake ....this makes India's claim of foreign involvement stronger..... and makes India case stronger..that its not the Kashmiris who are having issues but the forces across the border are instigating the problems on this side.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

blueoval79 said:


> Exactly... the problem the truth will never come out..and both sides will continue to blame each other....
> 
> But One thing to be noted is ...that there is no counter to this intercept theory coming from the so called separatists as well...so the common logic goes ...if you don't reply to the allegation ...the chances are that the allegations are valid.
> 
> 
> 
> Well....then the other side has all the right to counter the allegations with proofs that the allegations are a hoax..but that has not happened yet....so I would rather wait and see how things play out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the other hand if the so called separatist leaders are unable to prove that the allegations are fake ....this makes India's claim of foreign involvement stronger..... and makes India case stronger..that its not the Kashmiris who are having issues but the forces across the border are instigating the problems on this side.



It is a logical fallacy to try and 'prove a negative' - in other words, you cannot prove something does not exist, you can only prove something exists.

Theologically this amounts to the burden of proof being on those claiming God exists - if He exists, then there must be proof he exists. It is not up to the atheist to prove God does not exist. The same principle applies to 'innocent till proven guilty'. If you committed a crime, then there must be evidence of that crime and evidence that the crime was committed by you. 

Therefore, if these intercepts were indeed of militants and not just propaganda, it is up to the GoI to prove that the account is true.


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## EjazR

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, calling in the army is going backwards. We are suppose to move towards a demilitarization of Kashmir and this is like handing over a victory to separatists to show that Kashmir is under occupation. 

Already the Colonel and other Army officers and Kashmiris involved in the Machil fake encounter have been arrested. They should be taken to their logical conclusion. 

The Army should be moved out back again asap and even the CRPF should be withdrawn. The J&K police should raise a separate riot control squad and that should tackle protests that turn violent.

*The Hindu : Front Page : &#8220;Army's stay in Kashmir is not for too long&#8221;*

NEW DELHI: Union Home Minister P. Chidambaram on Thursday expressed the hope that the Army would not be required in the Kashmir Valley for too long and appealed to the people to observe curfew restrictions.

While a major burden of patrolling and law enforcement was being shouldered by the police and the Central Reserve Police Force, the Army was on standby in case there was any need for its deployment, he said.

The Army was deployed at the request of the Jammu and Kashmir government. I am not at liberty to disclose where it has been deployed. But I can assure that most of the places affected are still being patrolled and curfew enforced by the State police and paramilitary forces, he told reporters.

He stressed that the purpose of moving in the Army was to serve as a deterrent. The Army would be in Kashmir as long as it is necessary to deal with the situation there. But I sincerely hope that it will not be necessary for too long.

Mr. Chidambaram emphasised that people should not come out of their homes during curfew and indulge in stone-throwing.

I appeal to the Jammu and Kashmir people to observe curfew and stay indoors. Curfew is in place for a couple of days. I am sure the State government will be able to relax it in a couple of days, he said.

Parents should ensure that their children remain indoors. It is the responsibility of parents, he added.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Musharraf was at brink of Kashmir solution: India​* 
Updated at: 0850 PST, Wednesday, July 07, 2010 







HOUSTON  Raja Zahid Akhter Khanzada: The president Indian Supreme Court Bar Association (ISCBA), the chairman Kashmir Committee and a member of Rajeya Sabha Ram Jethmalani disclosed Tuesday Kashmir issue could have been long resolved peacefully if General Musharrf, the then Pakistani President, would remain in power for a little longer, Geo news reported.

Judiciary has no power to meddle with constitution legislated by a parliament, he observed.

He was talking to Jang/Geo news here in Houston city of Texas after attending a convention hosted by Sindhi Association of North America (SANA) on Tuesday.

Pervez Musharraf was at brink of resolving Kashmir issue practically before being destabilized by political turmoil in Pakistan, sending automatically the matter in limbo again, he revealed. 

He said, It is no longer a secret now that president Musharraf sent us a document carrying acceptable recommendations and proposals for solution of Kashmir Issue for two sides. 

Subsequently, I myself, worked on those proposals being chairman of Kashmir Committee, made slight changes and produced them before mass representatives, he said adding, but time did not permit Musharraf.

He hoped Kashmir Row would be resolved soon. 










Musharraf was at brink of Kashmir solution: India


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## blueoval79

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It is a logical fallacy to try and 'prove a negative' - in other words, you cannot prove something does not exist, you can only prove something exists.



Well in this case the proof exists...and the charged has to prove that the evidence is fake.....and for that the one needs to come out and say its a fake and prove it that its a fake.....the law and common man will see the proof ..even if it is cooked..unless and until the proof is not countered.



> Theologically this amounts to the burden of proof being on those claiming God exists - if He exists, then there must be proof he exists. It is not up to the atheist to prove God does not exist. The same principle applies to 'innocent till proven guilty'.


But in this case the God(the evidence) exists....now its the separatists who need to come out and say the evidence is fake....



> If you committed a crime, then there must be evidence of that crime and evidence that the crime was committed by you.


But if there is evidence that proves I am guilty... then its my responsibility to prove that the evidence is fake or fabricated....If I don't do that ...I am guilty as charged.




> Therefore, if these intercepts were indeed of militants and not just propaganda, it is up to the GoI to prove that the account is true.



Well GOI gave valid proof ...and it is valid till proven fake........and now its the charged who has to prove that the proof is fake.....if they want to continue to play their game of separatism.


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## EjazR

The audio of the "intercepts" are between office bearers of Hurriyat (G) and not of militants. They are speaking in Kashmiri and can be heard here
*Is some of the Kashmir violence planned and instigated?*


But still justifying the killing of people in protests based on this by firing is unacceptable. There will always be elements that will try to take advantage of the situation. This is a historical fact. But by resorting to firing on crowds instead of using non-lethal riot control techniques, the govt. is only alienating the people. 

The protests are still quite small compared to the 2008 Amarnath agitation that had between 1000-10,000 protestors and was across the entire state of J&K, buit even then there were about 40+ deaths in police firing. Both J&K govt. and GoI should have learnt from this.

The next of Kin of those who died in protests should be compensated and again security forces should be withdrawn from population centers just like the Army has been. The J&K police should be at the forefront of riot control duties in situations like this.

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## EjazR

*A Big Question: Do they really want withdrawal of troops from Kashmir?*

*Ajmer Alam Wani*

JAMMU: They (separatists and the main stream political parties) were raising high pitched slogans that Indian Government should withdraw its security forces from the soil of Kashmir so the people of Kashmir can feel a sense of security (which is not possible in the absence of security forces).

But at the mature time, when the process was started these leaders who claim to be the owners of entire Kashmir valley, used their brains in such a way to accomplish their selfish motives, the situation took reverse and the process has started otherwise now. Instead of troops withdrawal Indian Government has decided to move more troops in to control the situation and ensure peace in Kashmir.

People of Kashmir should now understand the reality that troops can not be withdrawn until there is peace on the streets. If the people of Kashmir, who have been treated and slaves not India but their own leaders, will not understand the fact that peace is imperative for troop withdrawal, their generations will never see the streets free of troops.

These people are being played with, their sentiments and ego is challenged every time and being a hot blood race they lost their brain and throng to streets raising slogans for Azadi and against IndiaBut in the process many lost their near and dear ones, even teenagers some become the victim of stray bullets while some succumb to the stone injuries.

One fails to understand that what purpose is solved through protests and facing the bullets or throwing the stones on troops? The process provokes every human heart to react and so do the security forces or the other agencies dealing with the situation. Being in the great trouble for the last three days, the people of Kashmir, who are being exploited by the separatists and other trouble mongers, must understand now that they are no more dearer to any of these leaders. These people must understand that these leaders are using them for their personnel interests and the time has come now that people of Kashmir should identify their foes and friends.

Since last few years these people were openly instigated and provoked through speeches and public addresses, not only by the separatist organizations but also by mainstream political parties, that the presence of Army and other Indian forces in Kashmir Valley is making them slaves and these people were asked to resort to the agitations, strikes and stone pelting against the security forces.

These innocent people were taught that every killing in Kashmir takes place due to the presence of security forces so these people who even dont know the role of security forces in protecting their lives do what these leaders and the agencies operating from across the border want them to do. But when it come to face the bullets, it is only common citizen of Kashmir Valley who becomes the victim but the leaders (separatists) who want to keep the pot of violence boiling enjoy wazwan inside their luxury homes so some times are put under house arerest., while those in the mainstream political parties are invited by the National Media for discussions making audience fool.

Here one must ask, and the innocent people of Kashmir must understand that when the situation was arrived to an extent that Indian Government had started withdrawing the security forces from the civilian areas of Kashmir step by step then what goes wrong. That now Indian government has decided to deploy more troops in Srinagar and other districts of Kashmir to maintain peace.

One doubts, does these leaders who raise the slogans demanding withdrawal of Army from Kashmir really want it or it is just a gimmick to hijack the minds of common people of Kashmir and keep them engaged in scuffles and brawl with the security agencies which ultimately results sometimes in deaths and injuries. People of Kashmir have to understand now that who provoked them to make the situation so worst that the government which was in the process of withdrawing its forces from the civilian areas has again decided to deploy more and more troops there in Kashmir valley.

This is high time for the Kashmir people to understand that on what direction they are taking coming generations and what legacy they are going to left for them. Will their coming generations to continue with protests and stone pelting and breasting their last either on roads, streets or in the hospitals? The people of Kashmir have to wakeup and think about their future generations, their security and their stability.

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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> _*
> Lies out of control September 1999​*
> 
> Himal Southasian/News Archive
> 
> =================_


_

You quote blogs as your sources? I am surprised! The second source you posted also quotes (source link no 109.) your first source "Himalmag.com". We all agreed, as gentlemen, that quoting blogs is disreputable. Why then, do that?

Anyhow, the point that these articles make is not that they deny mutilation of Indian soldiers by Pakistanis (the so called mujaheedin or PA regulars), but the fact that none of the reporters tried to make an effort to understand the extent of mutilations as opposed to those claimed by the IA (See the amount of freedom of media - and some ignoramuses complain the lack of such in India!!). It was an introspective piece. You of all people should have comprehended that article. Similar articles deplored the role that media played during Mumbai massacre. Dont tell me that by quoting those you can cast doubt on the whole Mumbai massacre.

IA may have exaggerated some of the instances of mutilation of bodies, but in a "war like situation" (credit to A.B. Vajpayee) it becomes imperative to sway public's mood to support the task at hand - which was to KICK intruders OUT of Indian land. Mission almost accomplished, dont you think so?

It was a war. Your folly, you paid. Period._


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## billi

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *Musharraf was at brink of Kashmir solution: India​*
> Updated at: 0850 PST, Wednesday, July 07, 2010
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HOUSTON  Raja Zahid Akhter Khanzada: The president Indian Supreme Court Bar Association (ISCBA), the chairman Kashmir Committee and a member of Rajeya Sabha Ram Jethmalani disclosed Tuesday Kashmir issue could have been long resolved peacefully if General Musharrf, the then Pakistani President, would remain in power for a little longer, Geo news reported.
> 
> Judiciary has no power to meddle with constitution legislated by a parliament, he observed.
> 
> He was talking to Jang/Geo news here in Houston city of Texas after attending a convention hosted by Sindhi Association of North America (SANA) on Tuesday.
> 
> Pervez Musharraf was at brink of resolving Kashmir issue practically before being destabilized by political turmoil in Pakistan, sending automatically the matter in limbo again, he revealed.
> 
> He said, It is no longer a secret now that president Musharraf sent us a document carrying acceptable recommendations and proposals for solution of Kashmir Issue for two sides.
> 
> Subsequently, I myself, worked on those proposals being chairman of Kashmir Committee, made slight changes and produced them before mass representatives, he said adding, but time did not permit Musharraf.
> 
> He hoped Kashmir Row would be resolved soon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Musharraf was at brink of Kashmir solution: India



thats the story of india- pakistan. so close yet so far.


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## billi

just roll in the tanks and mow them down, they are all foreigners, no indian.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

EjazR said:


> The audio of the "intercepts" are between office bearers of Hurriyat (G) and not of militants. They are speaking in Kashmiri and can be heard here
> *Is some of the Kashmir violence planned and instigated?*


1. How do we know they are office bearers of the Hurriyet, and 

2. How do we know that the people the intercept is being pinned on are indeed the ones speaking, and not Indian Army moles in a propaganda tape?


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## blueoval79

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> 1. How do we know they are office bearers of the Hurriyet, and
> 
> 2. How do we know that the people the intercept is being pinned on are indeed the ones speaking, and not Indian Army moles in a propaganda tape?



If they are not .....they will need to come out and say its not them and prove it....or else....Guilty as charged.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> IA may have exaggerated some of the instances of mutilation of bodies, but in a "war like situation" (credit to A.B. Vajpayee) it becomes imperative to sway public's mood to support the task at hand - which was to KICK intruders OUT of Indian land. Mission almost accomplished, dont you think so?
> 
> It was a war. Your folly, you paid. Period.


Don't change the subject - the argument is not over the fact that the IA and GoI pushed propaganda about torture to 'sway public mood' (that is after all the purpose of propaganda), but the fact that the claims of torture were never clearly substantiated, and that is the point the SATP article makes. One of the sources quoted is in fact Hindustan Times, but the article itself has been taken down, though the excerpt exists on the SATP site, as posted.

The point therefore being that the IA/GoI has clearly resorted to lies and propaganda about the side it opposes to advance its agenda, and these tapes could very well be a similar exercise in discrediting the protests, by attempting to 'sway public opinion'.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

blueoval79 said:


> If they are not .....they will need to come out and say its not them and prove it....or else....Guilty as charged.



Err no .. it is innocent until proven guilty. If indeed these men are Hurriyet members as claimed by Ejaz, then they should be arrested and tried in court, with the court verifying the evidence against them.

The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused.


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## ejaz007

blueoval79 said:


> If they are not .....they will need to come out and say its not them and prove it....or else....Guilty as charged.



This shows how much democratic and civilized you are. Giving verdict even before the trial commenced.

Every one is innocent till proven guilty and it is the duty of court to sentence some one not the accuser.


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## blueoval79

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Err no .. it is innocent until proven guilty. If indeed these men are Hurriyet members as claimed by Ejaz, then they should be arrested and tried in court, with the court verifying the evidence against them.
> 
> The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused.



Thats what I am saying ...the proof is on the table..... now its upto the so called separatist leaders to come out and say its not us...or else the proof is valid......


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## ejaz007

*India warns youth over violent IHK protests*

SRINAGAR: The Indian government on Thursday appealed for parents in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) to keep their teenage sons indoors after the deaths of several young men in violent protests over the last month. At least 15 people have died in separate incidents as Indian security forces opened fire to disperse angry protesters.

It is important that people do not come on to the streets and start pelting stones, Home Minister P Chidambaram told reporters in New Delhi, saying the restrictions on all public movement would remain in force for some days.

Children, especially young boys, should remain indoors. I think there is a responsibility of parents to ensure that, Chidambaram said.

Authorities have also extended the curfew to new parts of IHK after the army moved to take control of Srinagar for the first time in almost two decades. Shops, offices and schools remained closed and streets were empty during the day. Indian troops quickly downed shutters of those shops, which opened early in the day to enable people to buy provisions in the city. 

We are in a prison for the last several days. We dont have enough food at home to feed our families, Nadish Mir, a government employee, told reporters by telephone. staff report/afp

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

blueoval79 said:


> Thats what I am saying ...the proof is on the table..... now its upto the so called separatist leaders to come out and say its not us...or else the proof is valid......



Proof is not 'on the table', its on a television show. We don't even know if these alleged people exist. If they exist and are members of a political party then the GoI should arrest them/issue arrest warrants for them, and then the process starts.

Till the GoI formally takes a complaint to the court against someone there is nothing anyone has to answer for.


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## gubbi

EjazR said:


> But still justifying the killing of people in protests based on this by firing is unacceptable. There will always be elements that will try to take advantage of the situation. This is a historical fact. But by resorting to firing on crowds instead of using non-lethal riot control techniques, the govt. is only alienating the people.



Its not quite as black and white as you think it is. Police is not a trigger happy force. There is strict protocol to be followed. IIRC, even unholstering a weapon or loading and cocking a rifle in public by a Police Officer warrents an investigation and explanations. So you can imagine what it takes to give an order to open fire on a riotous mob!

Police open fire only as a last resort. Wonder why you see many members here posting gleeful emoticons whenever they post a picture of an Indian cop being beaten by protesters in Kashmir or anyother place. If cops were as trigger happy as you suspect, there would not be such pictures available.

The lack of proper riot control training to J&K police or the paramilitary led to the situation getting out of hand. Those forces need better training.


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## blueoval79

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Proof is not 'on the table', its on a television show. We don't even know if these alleged people exist. If they exist and are members of a political party then the GoI should arrest them/issue arrest warrants for them, and then the process starts.
> 
> Till the GoI formally takes a complaint to the court against someone there is nothing anyone has to answer for.



If thats the case ....why the hell are we wasting our time discussing this here ......

Let there law take its course and see if the separatists can prove their innocence and GOI can prove otherwise...

But now the next thing I see coming from your side is ...Oh India Law ...Indian courts will never be honest .....and all that.... but whatever...lets see how things play up.


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## ejaz007

*Protest over civilian killings, curfew in IHK*

** Protesters express concern over antipathy, lack of political initiative displayed by UPA-led govt*

By Iftikhar Gilani

NEW DELHI: Indian human rights activists, academics and students on Thursday staged a protest over the killing of innocent civilians as well as the continuing curfew in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK). 

Holding placards inscribed with slogans like Stop Killing Innocents and Repeal AFSPA, protesters staged a sit-in at Jantar Mantar near the Indian parliament. The protest was organised by Act Now for Harmony And Democracy (ANHAD), a non-government organisation. 

The protesters expressed serious concern over the antipathy and lack of political initiative displayed by the United Progressive Alliance-led central government. A resolution adopted at the end of the protest asked the government to learn lessons from history. People cannot be won over or suppressed at gun point. Certainly, the people of Jammu and Kashmir deserve a more rational, humane, visionary and sensitive response from the Indian State, it said.

The resolution demanded immediate action to prevent further loss of life and property, an end to the violence perpetrated by the security forces, immediate appointment of an independent and impartial time-bound commission of enquiry to look into the killings of peaceful civilians and human rights violations, initiation of an inquiry into instances of attacks on ambulance services, ensuring security of both local and national journalists, ensuring the freedom of expression and immediately starting political dialogue with various stake holders.

ANHAD and many other concerned civil society groups also asked governments in the state and Centre to come out clean  urgently and immediately  and explain if this is indeed a democratic and constitutional method of handling a worsening crisis in a highly sensitive region.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## S_O_C_O_M

Foe = India/Indian Army

Friend = Pakistan/Pakistani Army

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## EjazR

Well Ghulam Ahmad Dar is definitely one of the senior Hurriyat (G) office bearers as he has been part of the "protest program" announcements. The audio can clarify if the speakers sound like them but of course there is also the "possibility" that the speech is doctored. But Mobile phone interception technology is not that hi-tech and I would assume that whenever needed phone calls can be intercepted.

But still being a member of Hurriyat(G), even though its pro-Pakistan, is not a crime as such. So of course they both can't be charged just for being Hurriyat (G) members. There should be a VERY transparent proceedings with a publicly accessible trial and all the evidence in the public domain. I should also mention that Hurriyat (G) has been usually the least powerful Hurriyat group among the sepratists with most falling behind Hurriyat (M).

Ofcourse there are a number of intercepts that have been picked up apparently but the ndtv link gives the actual audio instead of transcripts. More transcripts are here.
*J&K protests made in Pak-Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times*

But like I mentioned, the situation was CREATED by the insensitive handling of crowds by the security forces. The J&K police and CRPF needs to start cleaning up their act on crowd control.


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## EjazR

*SHRC flays civilian killings Lastupdate:- Thu, 8 Jul 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com*

ARIF SHAFI WANI

Srinagar, July 7: The Chairman of State Human Rights Commission on Wednesday expressed strong resentment over the killing of four persons including a woman in police and paramilitary CRPF in Srinagar city on Tuesday.

The SHRC chairperson, Justice Bashir-ud-Din said the unabated killing spree in the Valley since June 11 was a dangerous pattern. He also asked the Government to restore sense of security among the people.

I feel sad over the killing of four civilians in Srinagar yesterday. The killing of civilians in any circumstances is unacceptable. Time and again this Commission has directed the troops and cops to exercise restrain even in extreme situations. Unfortunately, the directions are not adhered to resulting in loss of precious lives, Justice
Bashir-ud-Din told Greater Kashmir.

The chairperson said the Commission has observed that most of the teenagers and youth killed since June 11 were either hit by teargas canister or bullets in their chest, head and neck. This has led to killings of at least 14 persons in less than a month. The police and troopers should adhere to the Standard Operating Procedure and ensure saving the lives of civilians while maintaining law and order. They should no excuses as the troopers and cops are vigorously trained to deal with tough situations and respecting human rights, he said.

The Chairperson maintained that the Commission will seek report in all the 14 killings from police. *We will analyze the police reports and take appropriate action against the accused. This commission is committed to bring the perpetrators irrespective of rank or statues to book. We also directed the Government to take steps to restore sense of security among the masses, he said.*

Meanwhile, Justice Bashir-ud-Din who also heads the one man Judicial Commission to probe the killings of two youth, Shakeel Ahmad Ganaie and Firdous Ahmad Khan allegedly in firing of CRPF in Sopur on June 26, today issued public notice to enlist witnesses and record their statements.

The duo was killed when the troopers allegedly opened indiscriminate fire on protesters at Krankshivan, demanding bodies of two militants killed in an encounter there. The Judicial Commission which was formed on June 25, had to delay issuance of the public notices due to continuous curfew in Sopur. In the public notices, the Commission has asked the groups of persons, individuals, institutions and associations having knowledge directly or indirectly of facts and circumstances related to the incident to furnish statements in the form of affidavits sworn before any court or magistrate.
The Commission has assured full protection to the persons who wish to make their statements regarding the incidents. The Commission will hear the cases on notified dates at Dak Bunglow Sopur.
*Pertinently the Commissions terms of reference include ascertaining the causes of death of the two civilians, determining the persons responsible for these deaths and fixing responsibility for use of excessive force, if any. It has been set up by virtue of the Jammu and Kashmir Commission of Inquiries Act 1962.*

Though the Commission had been directed to file the report within a month, official sources said due to prevailing situation in the Valley, its tenure was likely to be extended.


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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Don't change the subject - the argument is not over the fact that the IA and GoI pushed propaganda about torture to 'sway public mood' (that is after all the purpose of propaganda), but the fact that the* claims of torture were never clearly substantiated*, and that is the point the SATP article makes. One of the sources quoted is in fact Hindustan Times, but the article itself has been taken down, though the excerpt exists on the SATP site, as posted.


No. The article is about introspection by Indian media and why the media got carried away by nationalist fervor instead of critically examining IA claims. There never was any doubt about the torture perpetuated on captured Indian soldiers (numbers are debatable and that is clearly mentioned in the blogs you quoted).


> The point therefore being that the IA/GoI has clearly resorted to lies and propaganda about the side it opposes to advance its agenda, and these tapes could very well be a similar exercise in discrediting the protests, by attempting to 'sway public opinion'.


Every piece of news is embellished to put across ones pov, just as one does with ones CV. That does not mean that the news is entirely incorrect. So your point of IA/GoI resorting to lies and propaganda is misguided, fallacious and outright offensive. 

As to the tapes, it has been reported earlier too that miscreants were paid to pelt stones and make trouble. So why is this to be considered any different then? Or do you think that Indian security forces are naive and do not have the equipment to monitor conversations between separatist leaders?


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## Moorkh

^^^ did u even try to read the article?

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## indushek

Well i think if Musharaff was in power for a bit long, history could have been made. Though he was responsible for Kargil, i admire his vision of bringing lasting peace between these estranged cousins.


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## AbuSalam

Everybody in India believed shrewed Advanijee blocked the deal @ Agra,even if India said yes..will the politicians of PPP & mr NawazSharif agree to it..afterall Mushrafjee is a dic tator !!


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## billi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> 1. How do we know they are office bearers of the Hurriyet, and
> 
> 2. How do we know that the people the intercept is being pinned on are indeed the ones speaking, and not Indian Army moles in a propaganda tape?



Boss the Dar chap is hiding now. Only thieves have to run. Wani is now in sasuraal. LOL


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## EjazR

*Restrictions on media lifted in Kashmir - Hindustan Times*

Restrictions on movement of media persons in the wake of curfew in Srinagar and certain other parts of the valley were today lifted by the Jammu and Kashmir government which issued fresh curfew passes to them. Media persons can perform their official duties, an official spokesman said. He said there was no gag order on the media but "we were only enforcing the curfew strictly".

Newspapers failed to hit the stands for the second day today in the Kashmir Valley in the wake of the restrictions.

The state government had yesterday cancelled curfew passes for media personnel affecting their movement.

The Editor's Guild of India had yesterday asked the Jammu and Kashmir Government not to impose restrictions on the media which prevents them from carrying out their duties.

"The guild is concerned over incidents of police high-handedness towards the media during the recent unrest in the valley," it had said in a statement.

A representative body of major print and electronic journalists in the valley, Kashmir Journalists Corps (KJC), had condemned the restrictions on media persons and said that it was a "direct attack on the fourth estate".

The India chapter of the South Asia media commission had yesterday asked authorities to restore normal functioning of journalists in the violence-hit state with immediate effect.

The last time the newspapers did not come out was in 2008 during the height of the Amarnath land agitation. Publication of dailies at that time was suspended for four days.Newspaper publication had also remained suspended for days during elections in 1996.


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## civfanatic

EjazR said:


> *A Big Question: Do they really want withdrawal of troops from Kashmir?*
> 
> *Ajmer Alam Wani*
> 
> JAMMU: They (separatists and the main stream political parties) were raising high pitched slogans that Indian Government should withdraw its security forces from the soil of Kashmir so the people of Kashmir can feel a sense of security (which is not possible in the absence of security forces).
> 
> But at the mature time, when the process was started these leaders who claim to be the owners of entire Kashmir valley, used their brains in such a way to accomplish their selfish motives, the situation took reverse and the process has started otherwise now. Instead of troops withdrawal Indian Government has decided to move more troops in to control the situation and ensure peace in Kashmir.
> 
> People of Kashmir should now understand the reality that troops can not be withdrawn until there is peace on the streets. If the people of Kashmir, who have been treated and slaves not India but their own leaders, will not understand the fact that peace is imperative for troop withdrawal, their generations will never see the streets free of troops.
> 
> These people are being played with, their sentiments and ego is challenged every time and being a hot blood race they lost their brain and throng to streets raising slogans for Azadi and against IndiaBut in the process many lost their near and dear ones, even teenagers some become the victim of stray bullets while some succumb to the stone injuries.
> 
> One fails to understand that what purpose is solved through protests and facing the bullets or throwing the stones on troops? The process provokes every human heart to react and so do the security forces or the other agencies dealing with the situation. Being in the great trouble for the last three days, the people of Kashmir, who are being exploited by the separatists and other trouble mongers, must understand now that they are no more dearer to any of these leaders. These people must understand that these leaders are using them for their personnel interests and the time has come now that people of Kashmir should identify their foes and friends.
> 
> Since last few years these people were openly instigated and provoked through speeches and public addresses, not only by the separatist organizations but also by mainstream political parties, that the presence of Army and other Indian forces in Kashmir Valley is making them slaves and these people were asked to resort to the agitations, strikes and stone pelting against the security forces.
> 
> These innocent people were taught that every killing in Kashmir takes place due to the presence of security forces so these people who even dont know the role of security forces in protecting their lives do what these leaders and the agencies operating from across the border want them to do. But when it come to face the bullets, it is only common citizen of Kashmir Valley who becomes the victim but the leaders (separatists) who want to keep the pot of violence boiling enjoy wazwan inside their luxury homes so some times are put under house arerest., while those in the mainstream political parties are invited by the National Media for discussions making audience fool.
> 
> Here one must ask, and the innocent people of Kashmir must understand that when the situation was arrived to an extent that Indian Government had started withdrawing the security forces from the civilian areas of Kashmir step by step then what goes wrong. That now Indian government has decided to deploy more troops in Srinagar and other districts of Kashmir to maintain peace.
> 
> One doubts, does these leaders who raise the slogans demanding withdrawal of Army from Kashmir really want it or it is just a gimmick to hijack the minds of common people of Kashmir and keep them engaged in scuffles and brawl with the security agencies which ultimately results sometimes in deaths and injuries. People of Kashmir have to understand now that who provoked them to make the situation so worst that the government which was in the process of withdrawing its forces from the civilian areas has again decided to deploy more and more troops there in Kashmir valley.
> 
> This is high time for the Kashmir people to understand that on what direction they are taking coming generations and what legacy they are going to left for them. Will their coming generations to continue with protests and stone pelting and breasting their last either on roads, streets or in the hospitals? The people of Kashmir have to wakeup and think about their future generations, their security and their stability.




Partial troop withdrawal in Kashmir is immaterial what kashmiris want is proclamation by India that it wants to withdraw from Kashmir in time bound manner and plebiscite . 
people of Kashmir are awake and know what legacy they are going to leave for their future generations and that legacy is how to fight a hegemonic and imperial power .

The other part of article is trash esp about how separatist leaders ccoccon themselves in comfort of their homes and enjoy wazwan . 
Most of separatist leadership in Kashmir rose out of struggle and faced tremendous hardships let me give few select examples 

Yasin Malik ..... Was student leader during 1987 elections and was polling agent for syed salahudin .....he was brutally beaten by police many times during elections and he was among four founder member of JKLF other three were killed by Indian security forces .

Shabir shah ... He has been in various jails for around 20 years 

Shiekh abdul rashid ...Was killed while leading procession 

Mir waiz Umar farooq ... His father was killed 

These are not low level leaders but are among top leaders . so to say that leaders use kashmiris as cannon fodder is puerile and it represents bias of author .


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## RajeHind

ambidex said:


> Kinetic, this is not new and GoI knows it very well from many years. You only have to stab one kashmiri youth to gather anti Indian Professionals out on the streets. Unfortunately It has became world wide phenomenon for Muslims to create bad PR against so called kafirs.
> 
> I would like to request Indian members not to pronounce them as protesters but trained professionals.
> 
> Someone is playing dirty here and putting timely fuel to keep valley burnt. There are manufacturing units running and producing well trained/deceptive terrorists for anti India activities (the Infiltration is only one way towards India till today). (Links at request).
> 
> The same can be done in Pakistan controlled territory by Indians, Pakistan controlled Kashmir is in peace because of India and Indian Kashmir in trouble because of Pakistan's so called polico-moral support.
> 
> India's role here is reactionary as far as offencive operations are concerned. It is only at the call of these ever changing strategists cum terrorists the GoI is sending troops in.
> 
> Kashmir is an Integral part of India by Indian constitution and if someone is still underestimating the power of union of Indian then it is sheer nonsense by part of them.
> 
> We have concerns for kashmiris from either side of LOC. we understand that only Kashmiris and Indians are going to suffer ultimately not Pakistan for sure.
> 
> It is only because of covert continuity of support by outside elements; the valley superficially appears unrest otherwise, India has brought about peace way before 2003 by eradicating all grievous elements/supplies/network with high potential of causing sophisticated attacks in Kashmir. Now they are desperate and gone to the level of stone pelting. Also Hurriyat has shown its intentions of dialogue with centre (not the first time though, before Mr. Abdul Gani lone was killed by anti Indian elements when peace process was Initiated).
> 
> Today Pakistan is retrospecting its self from head to toe like a wet hen for what went wrong. Thier policy makers are ranting day and night to discuss what is happening in all states. Only Punjab state has offered a list of 17 out law outfits those whom were an asset to raise Jihad in Kashmir. They are blind like bat when they talk about Indian misery in Kashmir but are hysterically confused about what is happening against them by their own people.
> 
> The history is greatest mathematician and at the very first morning of peace in Kashmir the so called numbers of dead in Kashmir will be divided in between India and Pakistan and i am sure that number of dead counts will go higher towards Pakistan's share; overwhelmingly.
> And trust me they will not accept the responsibility like they did after creating Taliban ( by politico moral support), now blaming USA for that, only after WOT.
> 
> Regards





This sumps up everything.


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## indushek

TIMES NOW has acquired transcripts of a conversation between hardline separatists and mobs, exposing how they are trying to instigate violence in Kashmir. 

The conversation between Hurriyat Geelani faction leader and his paid activist exposes how the hardline separatists are trying their best to instigate violence during the protests. 

Hurriyat (G) leader Ghulam Mohd Dar: I heard there is a protest march in Budgam. 

Local Hurriyat activist, Shabir Ahmed: Where? 

Hurriyat (G) leader Ghulam Mohd Dar: Budgam 

Local Hurriyat activist, Shabir Ahmed: I believe one small one had. Where will they go right now? 

Hurriyat (G) leader Ghulam Mohd Dar: No, I have heard that it's a massive one - nearly 30,000 

Local Hurriyat activist, Shabir Ahmed: 30,000? 

Hurriyat (G) leader Ghulam Mohd Dar: I swear, 30,000 of them. Protest near the Magam Forest check post. You enjoy your salaries without doing anything for it. 

Local Hurriyat activist, Shabir Ahmed: You have to understand the reason for it 

Hurriyat (G) leader Ghulam Mohd Dar: Tell me 

Local Hurriyat activist, Shabir Ahmed: The crowds get too big to handle at times. Lots of people join in and it's difficult to manage them 

Hurriyat (G) leader Ghulam Mohd Dar: We want 10-15 more martyred. Did you hear that? (loud noise apparently of rally) 

Hurriyat (G) leader Ghulam Mohd Dar: Did you hear that? That's the rally in Budgam 

Local Hurriyat activist, Shabir Ahmed: Ok

Excellent work by Hurriyat, they are true kashmiris don't u think.


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## indushek

And to say that they are all angels from heaven shows ur bias. Intelligence agencies have already gathered reports and intercepted calls by some hurriyat leaders talking about the number of people martyred and expressing sorrow that only a few died and atleast 10 to 15 more deaths are required!!!!!

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## ChinaChina

compare iok and *** i must say pakistan did a very good job in *** , seems like they dont want india in iok cos so many protects so many killing , weldone pakistan and shame on india for kiling innocent unarmed civillians.


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## indushek

This is the greatest tragedy of this country that our people always have been reactionary. If the Intelligence agencies could find out this conversation after all the hell broke loose why couldn't they do it before all the fuss.
I say that the strategy for Kashmir has to be redrawn. 

Firstly when the dust settles: A intelligence cover 24/7 should be spread over all the Hurriyat leaders.

Secondly the Intelligence agencies should be given a free hand no bureaucratic process here. Whenever they find such people no enquiry, no submission of proof. Kill these f..ing bastards.

If we want to be a responsible power atleast leave aside super, this is the only strategy. Covert ops within our Kashmir, no need to even go outside LOC.


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## indushek

ChinaChina said:


> compare iok and *** i must say pakistan did a very good job in *** , seems like they dont want india in iok cos so many protects so many killing , weldone pakistan and shame on india for kiling innocent unarmed civillians.



What a childish comment do u even have any knowledge of this area, please shut ur mouth since nobody asked ur advice or ur judgement on things here.

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## Break the Silence

*China is providing tacit support to Pakistan in its jihadi strategy with an aim to pin down half a million Indian troops in Kashmir, a leading European security expert has said.*
*Beijing has provided direct protection to these terrorist groups at the UN Security Council's 1267 committee, blocking efforts against Jamaat-ud-Dawa (the Lashkar-e-Tayiba front)," Andrew Small, an European expert has said.*

*Writing in the latest issues of the Washington Quarterly journal, Small of German Marshall Fund of the US said that the Chinese managed to bar action against JuD, until political pressure on Pakistan escalated after the LeT involvement in the November 2008 Mumbai attacks.*







*Labelling the Chinese policy as that of "managing tensions" in the South Asian region, the security expert said this was at odds with the US which was working hard to convince Pakistan to move away from India-centric military strategy*.

*Small also said that China had propped up Pakistan's conventional military capabilities by providing full spectrum of support to Islamabad's air and land missiles and 'tacit support for the jihadi strategy that has helped to bind half-a-million troops in Kashmir.*'

Based in Brussels, Small noted that the Chinese approach in the case of its ****** policy is 'proving increasingly' unsuccessful.













*"As is true of its foreign policy elsewhere, China pursues a relatively narrow conception of its interests in Afghanistan and Pakistan, rather than supporting a more widely shared set of goals," he said.* 

*"Security for its workers and major investment projects has deteriorated the Chinese while the US role in the region has expanded, much to Beijng's discomfort," Small said. *
"There is a debate starting in China about whether a strategic reassessment is needed, which has already resulted in a few tactical shifts on Beijing's part. But until China is forced to go through a more fundamental reappraisal of its strategy for dealing with extremism in the region, prospects for the US and China to pursue complementary policies will remain limited," he said.

"The strength of the Tehrik-i-Taliban (TTP) has also been a concern to China. While initially sanguine about the Pakistani government's deals in Swat and Buner, they became increasingly worried that the writ of the Pakistani state was running out in a territory that runs dangerously close to the principal Sino-Pakistani trade route, the KKH," he said.


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## gowthamraj

Mmm, now what happening in tibet. 

Is media allowed there


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## Break the Silence

gowthamraj said:


> Mmm, now what happening in tibet.
> 
> Is media allowed there



Even I do not know!!


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## civfanatic

indushek said:


> And to say that they are all angels from heaven shows ur bias. Intelligence agencies have already gathered reports and intercepted calls by some hurriyat leaders talking about the number of people martyred and expressing sorrow that only a few died and atleast 10 to 15 more deaths are required!!!!!


 Pathetic attempt by Indian agencies To malign Geelani sahab and i will tell you In kashmir it is getting the ridicule it is deserving .


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## Moorkh

indushek said:


> This is the greatest tragedy of this country that our people always have been reactionary. If the Intelligence agencies could find out this conversation after all the hell broke loose why couldn't they do it before all the fuss.
> I say that the strategy for Kashmir has to be redrawn.
> 
> Firstly when the dust settles: A intelligence cover 24/7 should be spread over all the Hurriyat leaders.
> 
> Secondly the Intelligence agencies should be given a free hand no bureaucratic process here. Whenever they find such people no enquiry, no submission of proof. Kill these f..ing bastards.
> 
> If we want to be a responsible power atleast leave aside super, this is the only strategy. Covert ops within our Kashmir, no need to even go outside LOC.


sounds like u want india to become nazi germany or stalinist USSR.

free and fair trial is very very important. if it is not so, there can be abuse of power and we will be in deep ****


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## sunakaffck

now that's gay..

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## Kompromat

sunakaffck said:


> now that's gay..



Thats friendship.


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## trident2010

They want 10-15 more martyred, then lets start with hurriyat leader Ghulam Mohd Dar and Shabir Ahmed

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## rohailmalhi

Now here cum a Conspiracy Theory from Indians.
China Support Kashmiri freedom fighters.
China Support Moaists 
China support

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## blueoval79

*Man arrested after Kashmir intercept asking for more deaths*

The man who has allegedly been recorded in a phone conversation asking for more people to be martyred in Kashmir has been arrested by the Jammu and Kashmir police.

NDTV reported on Thursday evening that Home Ministry sources have intercepted phone conversations between different leaders which suggest that some of the violence in the Valley is being instigated and provoked. In one such conversation, allegedly between Ghulam Ahmed and Shabir Wani, there is a reference to a protest rally in Budgam near Srinagar on July 7. The two men talk of money being exchanged. The phone transcript established Wani saying "There must be more deaths...10-15 more people must be martyred." (Read: Is some of the Kashmir violence planned and instigated?)

Shabir Ahmed Wani is the district President of the hardline Hurriyat Conference led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani. 

Sources in the government are clear that while those instigating violence may be arrested, there is recognition of genuine protests and anger that will have to be tackled politically.

Curfew is currently being strictly enforced in Srinagar. At the request of Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, the Army has returned to the city after 15 years after a new spate of violence over the last month which saw several civilians, including a teenager headed home after a tuition class, killed in clashes between protesters and security forces. Earlier this week, a 25-year-old woman standing at her window, watching the chaos unfold on the streets in one of those protests, was shot by a stray bullet.

The Army is being used on the periphery of Srinagar with the Centre stating that its role is to act as a "deterrent."

The situation in Kashmir is being carefully monitored by the Union government. Home Secretary GK Pillai has visited Srinagar and said the situation is under control, and that the next few days will be crucial in the city's and government's attempt to find peace. (Read: More paramilitary forces for J&K, says GK Pillai)


Read more at: Man arrested after Kashmir intercept asking for more deaths


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## Awesome

Convenient...

It has nothing to do with the scores of fake encounters, rapes and arsons India is committing in Kashmir...


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## lhuang

All a conspiracy actually


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## billi

Asim Aquil said:


> Convenient...
> 
> It has nothing to do with the scores of fake encounters, rapes and arsons India is committing in Kashmir...


 .. for fake's sake please remember this.
all things you mentioned above are just that .. FAKE


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## EjazR

*@civfanatic*

The author is a Kashmiri and reporter of news outlet in J&K. Its one ofthe view in Kashmir valley. Not all Kashmiris follow Geelani. Even among the sepratists Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Yasin Malik e.t.c has had bigger following. Reason because Geelani is pro-Pak whileothers are not.

And by the way, you forgot to mention that Mirwaiz Umar Farooq's father was killed by Pakistani based militants. I might also add that JKLF which fought for a secular independant J&K actually was targeted by LeT Hizb and other Pakistani based exremists groups for their ideology.

I posted this article because it is someone who is from the state and these are his views.

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## Awesome

> WSJI FLASH DEBATE: The Army Should Not Be Patrolling in Kashmir - India Real Time - WSJ
> 
> Pritish Agarwal  The line between the good guys and the bad guys is often blurred whenever there is a military presence in a civilian area. The public in general does not want to live under any kind of restrictions or face security inconveniences. The presence of army personnel is seen as a burden in Srinagar but we must not forget that they are there to curb a massive security threat. If strict guidelines and punishments ensure that the army men do not engage in any kind of misconduct, the people of Srinagar will eventually co-operate with them. In the long run, an army presence is an acceptable price for the eradication of insurgent elements in society.
> 
> Rahul Dash  The point here is to understand that the word protest is too general. A group of women taking to the streets to raise their voice against domestic abuse is a form of protest. The Maoists killing 100 jawans is also a form of protest. To say that no form of protest should be allowed would choke society to death. On the other hand, to allow each and every form of protest to exist would destroy it from within. Thus the entire issue comes down to drawing a line. I believe that a state is well within its rights to draw the line at protests targeting the very existence of the state in its current form. Hence, I support the armys involvement in this particular case. (With great emphasis on those last three words.)
> 
> Kriti Gupta  In case of violent protest, it sometimes becomes important to deploy the army to contain anti-social forces. Having said that, civilian protests arise out of dissatisfaction with the government. So the main problem lies with the way the government of Jammu and Kashmir has handled the situation in the state. Irrespective of whether one thinks the army should or should not have been deployed, the ultimate blame for the situation rests on bad governance.
> 
> Neeraj Trikha  There is no denying the fact that common people in Kashmir have genuine grievances against the issues of unemployment and corruption. The anti-India protests themselves underscore the failure of government in meeting the aspirations of its citizens. But to look at the situation through a prism of civilian protests is short sighted. The anti-India protests come at a time when India and Pakistan are holding talks after a hiatus of two years. While it may not be prudent to categorically attribute all internal problems in the country to a foreign hand, things are different when discussing Kashmir. The home minister has suggested that Lashkar e Taiba may be fomenting the public unrest. This angle should not be ruled out as Pakistan has previously used similar tactics in Punjab to channel the angst in locals to meet its broader ulterior objectives. Moreover, violence in any form, be it stone pelting by citizens or be it an act of terrorism by foreign-bred nationals, should be quashed. Therefore, it is better to contain these already-incensed anti-India protests before the situation is further exacerbated. The pre-emptive step of the government of calling in the army may restore temporary peace in Srinagar, but for ensuring long term stability it is imperative for the government to address the legitimate issues of the people.
> 
> Praggamoy Dasgupta  The current political ignominy of Jammu & Kashmir is an upshot of two rationales. First, the inclination of Kashmiri youth to view politics through the lens of religion. Second, Omar Abdullahs whimsical decision to withdraw 30,000 troops from the valley of Kashmir. In light of the recent fatalities from regular clashes between the CRPF and the stone-pelting mob, the Centers stand in deploying military forces in Jammu & Kashmir as a deterrent is the only credible option at its disposal. The rage of the vehement mob is nonetheless an orchestrated mechanism of separatist organization which enjoys strongholds in Sopore and its vicinity, where the initial flak struck. The Omar Abdullah government could also be a victim of a perverse plan by his opposition parties, in power in districts like Anantag, which have also come to epitomize the dismal attributes of Kashmirs Gen-X. To blame it on the incumbent governments policy of introducing military rule in such turmoil would be preposterous. However, the immediate intention of the government and the military should be to restore peace and order without being provoked through use of a judicious military effort while at the same time diluting public anger through interactions with civil society and calling for the peoples co-operation in discouraging violent upsurges.



I'm glad that the modern Indian is finally coming to its senses that there may be no love for India in Kashmir and all that huey about Kashmir being an integral state of India is good for fairytales.

While these students are still beating around the bush, but they've finally started to debate the inevitable outcome for Kashmir - Kashmiris are no fans of India.


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## Awesome

Why do Indians constantly presuppose the Kashmiris to be dumbasses? "Oh you don't hate us, you've only been brainwashed into thinking so."

Stop deluding yourselves.


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## Ishan

Asim Aquil said:


> Pritish Agarwal 
> 
> Rahul Dash 
> 
> Kriti Gupta 
> 
> Neeraj Trikha 
> 
> Praggamoy Dasgupta  .




Thanks for Making Asim So Happy

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## EjazR




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## EjazR

I don't think any sane person would agree for Army patrolling civilian areas. The Army had already been withdrawn from population centres and the BSFas well. Even the official Home ministry position which has been mostly hawkishis to withdraw the army as soon as possible and to not use it for crowd control.

-----------------------

*Civil society groups demand immediate end to violence in Kashmir | TwoCircles.net*

New Delhi: In order to register protest against killings of innocent civilians in Kashmir, a Dharna was organized by ANHAD (Act Now for Harmony and Democracy) at Jantar Mantar on Thursday, 8th of July, 2010. Representatives from various civil society organizations took part in the Dharna to extend their solidarity to the people of Kashmir.

Speaking at the occasion Shabnam Hashmi, prominent social activist and founder of ANHAD, condemned the killing of innocent civilians and rampant human rights violation in the state. Expressing her angst at the disturbing situation in the state she said that people&#8217;s voice can not be stopped by bullets.

She categorically asked, &#8220;why doesn&#8217;t the governments use bullet and army, when Shiv Sena and Vishwa Hindu Parishad goons disturb communal harmony? Why didn&#8217;t the government use bullet to stop rioters from raping women in Gujarat?&#8221;

She demanded that the Armed Forces Special Powers Act should be withdrawn from the state immediately.

Participants of the Dharna endorsed a final statement, which expressed their grave concern at the absence of any sensitive reaction by the Central Government, in response to the ongoing deaths, injuries and killings in cold-blood of civilians in Srinagar and Anantnag districts of Jammu and Kashmir, including young girls and boys, most of them innocent, peaceful protestors.

Talking about the protesters in the state, the statement pointed out &#8220;these are unarmed, non-violent citizens, who are being treated with such blatant and indiscriminate use of military force -- why? Is there no other way to negotiate with civil unrest? And what is the root cause of this civil unrest if not the brutalities executed by the police and para military forces? And what about cases of atrocities committed on people who are not even protesting?&#8221;

The participants of the Dharna put few demands from the Central and the State governments, among which putting an end to the violence perpetrated by the security forces with immediate effect and Immediately appointing an independent time bound Commission of Enquiry to look into the killings of peaceful civilians & human rights violations, were the most prominent ones. They also demanded that the freedom of expression and press and safety of media persons should be ensured in any case.

Expressing serious concern over the complete lack of political initiative displayed by the UPA-led central government in response to the situation in the valley, the statement also demanded from the central and state governments, to immediately start a political dialogue with various stake holders, as the people of Jammu and Kashmir deserve a more rational, humane, visionary and sensitive response from the Indian State.

People who participated in the Dharna were Swami Agnivesh, Shabnam Hashmi (ANHAD), Harsh Kapoor (South Asia Citizen Web), Navaid Hamid ( member, NIC), Prof. Kamal Mitra Chenoy (JNU), Prof. Anuradha Chenoy (JNU), Indu Prakash (IGSSS), Madhu Chandra (North Eastern Helpline), DivyavVinod (YWCA), Sanjay Kumar (AAA), Ravi Himadri (The other Media), Prof. Rizwan Kaisar (Jamia Millia Islamia) and others.

These demands were endorsed by:

1. Aashima Subberwal- Delhi University
2. Abeer Gupta - filmmaker
3. Adnan Nabi &#8211; Kashmir
4. Alana Hunt &#8211; Artist
5. Ali Asghar &#8211; Social Activist, Hyderabad
6. Amandra &#8211; AAA
7. Amit Sengupta, Journalist, Delhi
8. Amrita Nandy &#8211; SANGAT
9. Anil Choudhury- Peace
10. Anjali Thomas &#8211; Student DU
11. Anjum Rajabali, Cinema Script writer
12. Ankita Dash &#8211; Student DU
13. Appu Esthose Suresh - The Sunday Guardian, Delhi
14. Aqsa Anjum &#8211; Delhi
15. Arindam Jit Singh &#8211; Team Nishan
16. Arun Kumar Tiwari &#8211; Anhad
17. Aslam Khan &#8211; Student, Jamia Milia Islamia
18. Astha Rajan &#8211; Anhad
19. Atique Farooqui &#8211; Lucknow
20. Avinash Kumar-Oxfam India
21. Barkat
22. Biju Mathew &#8211; Professor of Business, Rider University, NJ, USA
23. Bindia Thapar - Architect/Illustrator, New Delhi.
24. Bobby Kunhu &#8211; Researcher and Writer
25. Chandra Nigam
26. Colin Gonsalves-Human Rights Law Network
27. David Devadas - Senior Journalist
28. Dev Desai &#8211; Gujarat
29. Dhananjay Tripathi &#8211; South Asians for Human Rights
30. Divya Vinod &#8211; YWCA
31. Dunu Roy &#8211; Hazards Centre
32. Fahad Shah, journalist, Srinagar
33. Faizen Haider Naqvi - Businessman, Delhi
34. Gauri Dasan Nair &#8211; Senior Journalist, kerala
35. Gowher Nabi Gora &#8211; J and K
36. Harsh Dobhal- Human Rights Law Network
37. Harsh Kapoor &#8211; South Asia Citizens Web
38. Inder Salim &#8211; Activist
39. Indu Prakash Singh- IGSSS
40. John Dayal- General Secretary, All India Christian Council
41. Kallol Bhowmik - Spl Correspondent Ajir Dainik Batori and Eastern Chronicle
42. Kalpana Tikku &#8211;
43. Kashif-ul-Hoda - Editor, TwoCircles.net
44. Madhu Chandra - All India Christian Council & North East Support Centre & Helpline
45. Madhura Chakrvoraty &#8211; Student Jadhavpur University, West Bengal
46. Maia Barkaia &#8211; JNU student
47. Manas Arora &#8211; Student, IP College of Engineering
48. Manasi Pingle &#8211; Student, DU
49. Manisha Sethi &#8211; Jamia Teachers Solidarity Association
50. Manisha Trivedi &#8211; Anhad Gujarat
51. Manjit Singh Roperia &#8211; Student Hissar
52. Mankasha
53. Mansi Sharma-Anhad
54. Meeta Bhandari &#8211; IGSSS
55. Moggallan Bharti &#8211; JNU student
56. Mohan Kumawat- Anhad
57. Mohd. Ali - Delhi Correspondent of news website TwoCircles.net
58. Mudassir Kawa, Activist, Srinagar
59. Mukul Manglik &#8211; Historian Delhi University
60. Murli Natarajan, South Asia Solidarity Initiative, USA
61. Mushtaq Koka, Activist, Srinagar
62. Naazim Mohammed &#8211; Social Activist, Bangalore
63. Nadeem &#8211; IGSSS
64. Nadim Nikhat - Centre for Social Justice, Ahmedabad, Gujarat
65. Navaid Hamid -Social Activist
66. Neha Dhole, Aman Trust, New Delhi
67. Prasad Chako- NCDHR
68. Pratap Singh Negi, Anhad
69. Prativa Thomas &#8211; Amnesty International, UK
70. Prem Dangwal &#8211; Anhad Mumbai
71. Prof Anuradha Chenoy, JNU, Delhi
72. Prof Kamal Mitra Chenoy, JNU, Delhi
73. Prof. KN Panikkar, Historian
74. Prof. Rizwan Kaiser &#8211; Jamia Milia Islami
75. Raj Gopalan &#8211; Trivandrum, Kerala
76. Ram Puniyani &#8211; Ekta, Mumbai
77. Rashid Ali &#8211; Freelance Journalist
78. Rima Aranha
79. Rohit Sinha &#8211; Student DU
80. Rupal Oza, South Asia Solidarity Initiative
81. Saaimah Khwaja
82. Saba Diwan &#8211; Film maker
83. Sabir Hussain &#8211; Jammu and Kashmir
84. Sachin Pandya &#8211; Anhad Gujarat
85. Sania Hashmi &#8211; Anhad
86. Sanjay Kumar &#8211; AAA
87. Sanjay Sharma &#8211; Anhad
88. Sanjeev Mahajan, CA, USA
89. Saqib Sana - Mumbai
90. Sargam Mehra
91. Seema Duhan-Anhad
92. Seher Hashmi
93. Shabir Hussain &#8211; Srinagar, J &K
94. Shabnam Hashmi- social activist, Anhad
95. Shahnawaz Malik &#8211; Lucknow
96. Shaweta Anand, Journalist and Researcher
97. Sheeba Aslam Fehmi &#8211; Researcher JNU
98. Shesh Narain Singh-Senior Journalist
99. Shivayan Raha &#8211; The Other Media
100. Shoaib Khan &#8211; Srinagar, J&K
101. Shrish Chandra &#8211; Lucknow University
102. Shweta Tripathi &#8211; Programme Officer, SHRUTI
103. Sohaib Niazi &#8211; Student, Jamia Milia Islamia
104. Sohail Hashmi-Social Activist
105. Sonam Gupta - Anhad
106. Sonia Jabbar- Independent Filmmaker
107. Sri Nidhi Baglodia
108. Tanveer Hussain Khan -Anhad Kashmir Coordinator
109. Thulasi Kakkat &#8211; Photographer, Kerela
110. Uma Chakravarty- Academician
111. Vijayan- Delhi Forum
112. Vrinda Grover- Human Rights Lawyer, Supreme Court
113. Waqar Kazi &#8211; Anhad Mumbai
114. Wasim Khan, NJ, USA
115. Yasmeen Qureshi, Human Rights Activist, CA, USA
116. Zafar Abbas &#8211; journalist, Delhi
117. Zafar Agha, journalist, Delhi


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## EjazR

*The Hindu : Opinion / Letters : Army in Kashmir*

This refers to the report &#8220;Army out, stages flag march in Srinagar&#8221; (July 8). The army's assistance to the Jammu and Kashmir government in restoring normality may provide an immediate solution. But it will be temporary. Summer violence and protests not only recur every year but also become more violent. Human rights violations serve as an immediate cause for protests, which eventually lead to the enhanced alienation of people and trust deficit.

The government should rebuild trust by ensuring zero tolerance of rights violations, reconsideration of the AFSPA, demilitarisation of the areas which are free from militancy, dialogue with the separatists on more relaxed terms and good governance.

Waseem Malik, Anantnag

The Centre and the Kashmir government seem intent on undermining the Indian state's legitimacy in Kashmir. Calling in the army is a knee-jerk reaction. The cure is worse than the disease and a part of the problem rather than the solution. When the Centre is so reluctant to send the army into the red corridor in spite of heavy losses, why is it so eager to deploy the army in Kashmir?

Syed Abid Shah, Srinagar

The Centre has steadfastly refused to deploy the army in the naxal-infested areas saying the Maoist rebels are our own people. But it has resorted to a diametrically opposite approach in Kashmir. Are not the protesters in Kashmir as much Indians as the naxal cadres operating in Chhattisgarh, Orissa and West Bengal?

Arun Malankar, Mumbai

Once again, Kashmir is on the boil. Normal life has been paralysed with over 15 civilians killed. Demonstrations and protests are part of democracy and the legal right of every Indian. Why should the government forcibly prevent the Kashmiris from exercising their right?

Why is something that is common everywhere seen as an offence in Kashmir? The government should consider the protests the voice of its own people, not a threat to the State.

Waliullah, New Delhi

The army is out on the streets of Srinagar after two decades. It was not intended to be deployed but the situation in Kashmir warrants its presence. In fact, the National Conference-led government of Omar Abdullah did its best to bring peace. A large number of Kashmiri Pandits went back to the Valley to celebrate one of their annual religious festivals. It was surely a big step forward. What went wrong is understandable. The separatists have their own agenda and support from across the border.

R.K. Kutty, Bhopal

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## EjazR

*The Hindu : Front Page : Srinagar Army deployment driven by panic?*

*Poor crowd control training leading to fatalities in Kashmir urban clashes every summer, say experts*

NEW DELHI:Early in the morning, half a company of soldiers from the Army's Srinagar-based 31 sub-area command rode from the cantonment to the airport. In the afternoon, the troops returned, this time driving through tense inner-city neighbourhoods.

Wednesday was the first day in 17 years that the Indian Army had been ordered out to assist civilian authority in Srinagar &#8212; but, ironically enough, there were fewer military vehicles on the city's main highways than are seen on normal days. No actual Army deployment has taken place in the city and, Defence Ministry sources told TheHindu, none is planned: the Srinagar-based XV corps has instructions only to stand by in the event of a crisis.

The Jammu and Kashmir government called for military aid after three weeks of bruising urban violence, which broke out on June 11. Four people were shot dead by police and Central Reserve Police Force personnel on Tuesday, bringing the fatalities in the recent violence to 15. Police say six other civilians were killed in clashes earlier this summer, as well as in incidents linked to clashes.

The last time the Army was out on Srinagar's streets was in April 1993, when elements of the Jammu and Kashmir Police mutinied. Later, that October, the Army was called into action after jihadists occupied Hazratbal, a revered shrine that houses a relic reputed to be a hair from the beard of Prophet Muhammad. In 1999, troops were called in briefly for assistance in an attempt to rescue officials trapped in a terrorist assault on the headquarters of the Jammu and Kashmir's Police crack counter-terrorism force, the Special Operations Group.

Never, however, has the Army been asked to assist in urban crowd control in Kashmir's cities &#8212; and many experts are asking if this summer's clashes, appalling as their toll has been, constitute the kind of crisis that justifies calling out troops.

Figures published by the Union Home Ministry's National Crime Records Bureau suggest panic, instead of a calm appraisal, may have driven the decision to call in the Army: the clashes on Srinagar's streets are like a long-running fever, not an emergency that needs surgical intervention.

In 2003, the year the People's Democratic Party-Congress alliance government took office, six people were killed in 47 incidents involving the use of lethal force by police. Thirteen civilians were killed in 2004, Chief Minister Mufti Mohammad Saeed's full first year in office. Police are recorded as having opened fire on 123 occasions.

The next year, though, fatalities in police firing rose sharply to 50. That September, the State government withdrew Border Security Force units committed to counter-insurgency operations in Srinagar, and replaced them by the Central Reserve Police Force, in an effort to contain killings of civilians.

In 2006, the year Chief Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad took office, there were no civilian fatalities caused by police. Even though Srinagar saw some urban violence that summer, in the course of protests against a prostitution racket in which politicians were implicated, there was little bloodshed.

But the next year eight civilians were killed in 47 instances of police firing.

Fatalities rose sharply in 2008 &#8212; a year when large-scale protests against the grant of land-use rights to Shri Amarnath Shrine Board tore apart Jammu and Kashmir. The State government reported 43 deaths and 317 injuries in 379 incidents involving use of lethal force by police.

Data is not yet available for 2009, but a senior police official told TheHinduthat more than 15 civilians had been killed in police firing last summer too.

*National problem*

*Fatalities caused by police firing have been far fewer in Jammu and Kashmir than in many other States less threatened by large-scale protests. Police in Uttar Pradesh killed 104 civilians and injured 145 in 608 incidents of police firing in 2008. Maharashtra reported 47 civilian deaths in 89 incidents of police firing.*

*Police in several States, the data shows, are more likely than their Jammu and Kashmir counterparts to open fire to kill. In 2007, 30 civilians were killed in Andhra Pradesh in 45 incidents of police firing; eight died in Jammu and Kashmir in 47 incidents. Back in 2006, the Andhra Pradesh police killed 72 civilians in 79 incidents of firing, while 138 Chhattisgarh residents were shot dead in 213 incidents.*

Part of the problem, experts say, lies in deteriorating riot-control skills. &#8220;Indian police forces,&#8221; notes the New Delhi-based Institute for Conflict Management's Ajai Sahni, &#8220;used to be internationally regarded for their crowd control skills. Police managing agitations in Punjab or Assam quite routinely dispersed crowds of tens of thousands of people without opening fire.&#8221;

&#8220;The fact that police forces across the country are using lethal force to disperse a few hundred people throwing stones,&#8221; Mr. Sahni argues, &#8220;shows something has gone badly wrong.&#8221;

Army sources said the Jammu and Kashmir government had been told troops were untrained in riot control duties, and would be unable to assist in crowd control. &#8220;We were told our presence was intended to be demonstrative,&#8221; a senior officer said, &#8220;and that we would not be drawn into riot-related duties.&#8221;

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## Bang Galore

Asim Aquil said:


> I'm glad that the modern Indian is finally coming to its senses that there may be no love for India in Kashmir *and all that huey about Kashmir being an integral state of India is good for fairytales.*
> 
> While these students are still beating around the bush, *but they've finally started to debate the inevitable outcome for Kashmir* - Kashmiris are no fans of India.




Oh boy, what a leap !

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## Guynextdoor

Asim Aquil said:


> I'm glad that the modern Indian is finally coming to its senses that there may be no love for India in Kashmir and all that huey about Kashmir being an integral state of India is good for fairytales.
> 
> While these students are still beating around the bush, but they've finally started to debate the inevitable outcome for Kashmir - Kashmiris are no fans of India.


No one asked you for your opinions


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## sunakaffck

Black Blood said:


> Thats friendship.



humm...... nahhh still gay


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## RescueRanger

sunakaffck said:


> now that's gay..



Then your understanding of friendship and brotherhood is found wanting. Bye!


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## Dr.Evil

What a crap thread, nothing worthwhile to discuss in it, but some people are getting jollies in it , good for them.


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## subject17

RescueRanger said:


> Then your understanding of friendship and brotherhood is found wanting. Bye!



Come on, it was on lighter note. 

True still gay.


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## sunakaffck

its like brokeback mountain 2


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## Prometheus

> *Indian Army should not be patrolling in Kashmir: Indian students finally reflect*


-

Army is used for external threats.............and In kashmir we have one........another Indian student says again

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## afriend

Well, there are anti india haters in kashmir valley, and everyone in india knows that..!! So you are not breaking any news to us. But generalising the sentiments after years of hard work of some elements in your country to forment trouble is not right. We just heard about audio tape where in seperatists where trying to martyr their own people for their own gains. So enemy of kashmir is pakistan and some of their own people. Thats wot i believe.!!!!


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## Hulk

Bang Galore said:


> Oh boy, what a leap !



Finally ISI's plan is looking good. They have changed the mode. At least they understood terrorism is not good. Thank god.


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## afriend

Asim Aquil said:


> Why do Indians constantly presuppose the Kashmiris to be dumbasses? "Oh you don't hate us, you've only been brainwashed into thinking so."
> 
> Stop deluding yourselves.



Because we know the reason of their hate, and we are trying to explain them the situation, but unfortunately some fanatics in the seperatists fold with the help of extrimists whose life is dedicated to formenting trouble in india, is brain washing the teenage kids who had only seen violence in their lifes and that is a fact, and why are YOU having trouble in accpeting that fact if i may ask the counter question..!!!


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## Fighter488

*Police arrest 60 anti-India protesters in Kashmir​*
By *AIJAZ HUSSAIN *(AP)  1 hour ago

*SRINAGAR*, *India * Government forces arrested over 60 suspected separatist activists across Indian Kashmir in an attempt to stem deadly civil unrest that has continued despite a curfew that was in its third day, police said Friday.

The arrests, carried out during overnight raids by police and paramilitary soldiers, were designed to put a lid on nearly three weeks of violent anti-India protests in which at least 15 people have died. Residents blame security forces for the deaths.

At least 30 separatist activists who had participated in recent street demonstrations were arrested in Anantnag, 35 miles (55 kilometers) south of Srinagar, the main city in Indian Kashmir, said a police officer who spoke on condition of anonymity as he was not authorized to speak to the media.

He said at least 30 others were arrested in Srinagar and other towns in Kashmir.

Tens of thousands of troops patrolled the region's streets, while shops and schools were closed. Streets ringed with barbed wire were deserted, and the region's nearly 60 newspapers were unable to publish for a second day Friday.

Despite the curfew, the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, an umbrella organization of separatist groups, called for more protests.

The tension in the Himalayan region  divided between India and Pakistan  was reminiscent of the late 1980s, when protests against Indian rule sparked an armed conflict that has killed more than 68,000 people, mostly civilians, over the past two decades.

The government's decision to send the army to quell the recent protests was intended to prevent them from spiraling out of control and igniting another insurgency.

The Indian army is ubiquitous in Kashmir, but its operations are usually aimed at combating insurgents and it has not been used in crowd control since major street protests in 1990.

India and Pakistan have fought two wars over the region. India regularly accuses Pakistan of sending insurgents over the heavily militarized frontier to stir trouble and has blamed the recent protests on Pakistan-based militants bent on destabilizing India, a charge Islamabad denies.

Kashmiri separatists are demanding independence from Hindu-majority India or a merger with Muslim-majority Pakistan.

Copyright © 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.


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## praveen007

it should also viewed as that gen-x is pitching it self as line of defence against those cross-border, barbarien terarist


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## Mogambo

*Indian Army should not patrol anywhere in India but due to hostile and jealous neighbors we are forced to deploy our men.

Also, army was not patrolling but due to the funding of some foreign agencies who don't want peace some foreign puppets try to spread violence and innocent deaths. 

To save innocent Kashmiri muslims from the conspiracy of hostile elements and to save lives of innocent people Indian Army is patrolling in Kashmir.*

Hurriyat Geelani | Instigate Violence | Want More Martyrs - Oneindia News

http://sify.com/news/hurriyat-leader-held-for-instigating-violence-news-national-khjnuccdaid.html

Man arrested after Kashmir intercept asking for more deaths

We want 10-15 more martyred: Hurriyat leader - India - The Times of India

Separatist leaders behind Kashmir violence - India News - IBNLive

Hurriyat leader arrested for JK conspiracy

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## civfanatic

EjazR said:


> *@civfanatic*
> 
> The author is a Kashmiri and reporter of news outlet in J&K. Its one ofthe view in Kashmir valley. Not all Kashmiris follow Geelani. Even among the sepratists Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Yasin Malik e.t.c has had bigger following. Reason because Geelani is pro-Pak whileothers are not.
> 
> And by the way, you forgot to mention that Mirwaiz Umar Farooq's father was killed by Pakistani based militants. I might also add that JKLF which fought for a secular independant J&K actually was targeted by LeT Hizb and other Pakistani based exremists groups for their ideology.
> 
> I posted this article because it is someone who is from the state and these are his views.


Our CM is a kashmiri His father Farooq abdullah is a kashmiri . Wajahat habibulah is kashmiri and so is Muzzaffar biegh .

The author being Kashmiri does not change the fact that his piece is a pathetic piece of propaganda . 

Coming to your next point about following in kashmir the fact is that geelani has the biggest follwing in kashmir and he has follwing even in that section of society which is not pro - pakistan and that is becuase he is seen as more honest and more consistent (That is why India calls him hardliner )


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## javaman

i will say to all pakistani members->

that we have a lot to make thread on this issue,but kashmir will remain indian territory.u can't get this by force,by talks india will pass time ,so here nothing is 4 u.


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## civfanatic

EjazR said:


> *@civfanatic*
> 
> 
> 
> And by the way, you forgot to mention that Mirwaiz Umar Farooq's father was killed by Pakistani based militants. I might also add that JKLF which fought for a secular independant J&K actually was targeted by LeT Hizb and other Pakistani based exremists groups for their ideology.
> 
> .



Mirwaiz Umar farooqs father was killed by Police using a surrendered millitant . If he was killed by As you say pakistan based millitants then his son wont have been one of pillars of current anti India struggle and his follwers in downtown srinagar leading protest marches and death tolls . It is nice piece of myth propagated by India . 

Regarding your next point about clashes between Hizb and jklf ....sadly this is true in early days of our struggle there were seriuos clashes between two . Part of that struggle was ideological and part of it was personal . It proved to be one of biggest mistake and eroded lot of popular support for both . Hopefully we have wizened up and wont repeat same mistakes again .


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## civfanatic

javaman said:


> i will say to all pakistani members->
> 
> that we have a lot to make thread on this issue,but kashmir will remain indian territory.u can't get this by force,by talks india will pass time ,so here nothing is 4 u.



MOds ... Please don't tolerate this kind of behavior . These kind of posts derail every thread esp in Kashmir and soon the thread becomes baluchistan thread , Pushtoon thread , India army thread . Just my suggestion


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## Spring Onion

indushek said:


> And to say that they are all angels from heaven



In front of Indian invader barbaric army, yes they are angels from heaven.





> shows ur bias. *Intelligence agencies* have already gathered reports and intercepted calls by some hurriyat leaders talking about the number of people martyred and expressing sorrow that only a few died and atleast 10 to 15 more deaths are required!!!!!



 You mean RAW? But isnt it that these same RAWITES (intelligence agencies ) claimed that stones thrown on Indian invader army have been imported by ISI from Mars and ISI is teaching the Kashmiri youth how to fling a stone


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## Imran Khan

indushek said:


> What a childish comment do u even have any knowledge of this area, please shut ur mouth since nobody asked ur advice or ur judgement on things here.



its open forum not you bed room jani he is free to talk not he?


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Jana said:


> In front of Indian invader barbaric army, yes they are angels from heaven.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You mean RAW? But isnt it that these same RAWITES (intelligence agencies ) claimed that stones thrown on Indian invader army have been imported by ISI from Mars and ISI is teaching the Kashmiri youth how to fling a stone



*Current Kashmir turmoil instigated, funded: Intelligence report
*
7/9/2010 1:03:46 AM

Srinagar, July 08: Giving credence to the common observation, sources in the Union Home Ministry have given proof that the current turmoil in Kashmir is being not only instigated, but also planned and funded from across the border, by the Laskar-e-Tayyeba in collusion with hardliner separatists. 
Intelligence agencies have intercepted conversations between one Ghulam Ahmed Dar and Shabir Wani which clearly shows that the stone-pelting and other disturbances are being funded by external elements in collision with the separatists. 
A large procession had started in Budgam district on the outskirts of Srinagar in the evening and two senior office-bearers of the Pro-Islamist Hurriyat faction led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani discussed how to utilise it to create casualties, according to the transcript of the conversation available with the Home Ministry. 
According to the transcript, one of the office- bearers, Ghulam Ahmed Dar, was heard telling Shabir Ahmed Wani, another office-bearer, that a procession of nearly 20,000 people had started from Magam and was going towards Budgam. 
Wani tells Dar, "You guys enjoy payments sitting at home and do nothing." 
Dar, in his response, says, "The management of crowd becomes difficult later.....it gets difficult to manage the mob later." 
Dar then ends up by saying, "at least 15 people should be martyred today." 
The sources say there is recognition of genuine protest and anger in the Valley, but add that "mischief makers" are taking advantage of that anger. 
J&K CM Omar Abdullah had said last week that the government has taped conversations between separatists, handlers from across LoC and stone-pelters. He said they have also tracked movement of money for these leaders. 
The sources in the Home Ministry said the government was keeping a close watch on the situation and was of the opinion that the violence is occurring to derail the freshly started peace process between India and Pakistan. 
The opposition had also sounded alert for the government about the problem being fomented by LeT and other militant groups. 
"Pakistan is involved in stone-pelting. Stones are brought in trucks with each truckload costing Rs 1,000 to Rs 1,200. Boys are paid Rs 500 each for pelting stones. This is a low cost, high impact strategy being used by terrorist groups whose middle level leadership was liquidated by forces," BJP spokesperson Prakash Javadekar had said on July 1. 
Even the Union Home Minister had said in a press conference that LeT could be involved the Valley's new trouble. 
Army has now been deployed in parts of the state after the govt requested the same. 
Shocking details 
Separatist groups especially those owing allegiance to Pakistan-terror outfit Hizbul Mujahideen and Lashker-e-Taiba are alleged to have formed several groups comprising a minimum of dozen people, sources in the interrogation team said. 
This was revealed during extensive interrogation of a stone pelter arrested by the Jammu and Kashmir police in Februray. 
These groups are paid a hefty amount ranging between Rs5 to Rs8 lakh, they said, adding a part of this money is handed over to another group known as "initiators" who pick up stones and start pelting on police and para-military forces -- sometimes on trivial issues. 
The groups, which are alleged to have been receiving funds from a political party as well, have stationed their people in various localities and other districts of the Valley, the sources said. This could be the reason for stone pelting incidents occurring in a synchronized manner throughout the valley during agitations and protests, they said. 
Adding to the woes of policemen were protestors making use of stones and building material kept by government agencies on roads for construction activities, the sources said.

Current Kashmir turmoil instigated, funded: Intelligence report - NorthLines Leading Newspaper Jammu Kashmir


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## MarkTheTruth

The native Indian Governor of Occupied Kashmir, Mr. Narinder Nath Vohra received instructions from Delhi to do all necessary paperwork for imposition of Governor Rule in Occupied Kashmir. The Governor Rule could be imposed at any time in the near future due to inability of the puppet regime of Mr. Omar Abdullah. Who has failed to crush the fresh wave of Anti-India protests and agitations of Kashmiri people, demanding for the end to Indian rule in Occupied Kashmir and the right of Self-Determination.

In a high level meeting held in New Delhi two days before, the top brass of Indian Armed Forces, together with Intelligence heads and Defence and Foreign Ministers and other members of Indian Cabinet briefed the Prime Minister Mr. Singh over the latest situation in Occupied Kashmir. The meeting, headed by the Prime Minister, also considered the separatists movements in Naxal areas. Mr. Singh ordered fresh injection of more troops both in Occupied Kashmir and Naxal affected areas and instructed the armed forces to use every mean to crush the separatists.

The process of imposition of Governor Rule is already initiated. In order to provide moral justifications to the Indian government, an Anti-Kashmiri political group, Panthers Party, "appealed" the government of India to impose Governor Rule in Occupied Kashmir as soon as possible.

Indian Army, which publicly refused to take control of Law & Order Situation in Occupied Kashmir, had today staged its first Flag March during last 20 years in Srinagar.

The situation in Kashmir is worsening with each day passing. The local and international media is already blocked from covering the ongoing events in Srinagar and elsewhere in Occupied Kashmir. Despite the protests by Kashmiri Journalists, no newspaper is allowed to publish today in Occupied Kashmir. Restrictions on mobile messaging and access to Internet are also imposed in many areas.

Thousands of Kashmiris marched on the streets of Srinagar, violating the 4 days long curfew. Risking their lives, chanting Anti-India slogans and with Pakistani flags in hands, the Kashmiris raining stones and whatever they found over Indian force. In response they have to face bullets, fired by Indian Army over them.

3 died and many injured in Srinagar today when the army and CRPF opened indiscriminate firing on Kashmiri people. 80 other arrested and thrown to jails.

Condemning the Human Rights violations by Indian Forces in Occupied Kashmir, the Foreign Office Spokesman Mr. Abdul Basit assured every support to Kashmiri brothers and vowed to help Kashmiris for their right of Self-Determination.

The leadership of Both APCH groups forced to stay at home. Many key leaders including Syed Ali Geelani are under house arrest.

India is planning to impose Governor Rule in Occupied Kashmir


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Current Kashmir turmoil instigated, funded: Intelligence report - NorthLines Leading Newspaper Jammu Kashmir

*Current Kashmir turmoil instigated, funded: Intelligence report
*
7/9/2010 1:03:46 AM
Srinagar, July 08: Giving credence to the common observation, sources in the Union Home Ministry have given proof that the current turmoil in Kashmir is being not only instigated, but also planned and funded from across the border, by the Laskar-e-Tayyeba in collusion with hardliner separatists. 
Intelligence agencies have intercepted conversations between one Ghulam Ahmed Dar and Shabir Wani which clearly shows that the stone-pelting and other disturbances are being funded by external elements in collision with the separatists. 
A large procession had started in Budgam district on the outskirts of Srinagar in the evening and two senior office-bearers of the Pro-Islamist Hurriyat faction led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani discussed how to utilise it to create casualties, according to the transcript of the conversation available with the Home Ministry. 
According to the transcript, one of the office- bearers, Ghulam Ahmed Dar, was heard telling Shabir Ahmed Wani, another office-bearer, that a procession of nearly 20,000 people had started from Magam and was going towards Budgam. 
Wani tells Dar, "You guys enjoy payments sitting at home and do nothing." 
Dar, in his response, says, "The management of crowd becomes difficult later.....it gets difficult to manage the mob later." 
Dar then ends up by saying, "at least 15 people should be martyred today." 
The sources say there is recognition of genuine protest and anger in the Valley, but add that "mischief makers" are taking advantage of that anger. 
J&K CM Omar Abdullah had said last week that the government has taped conversations between separatists, handlers from across LoC and stone-pelters. He said they have also tracked movement of money for these leaders. 
The sources in the Home Ministry said the government was keeping a close watch on the situation and was of the opinion that the violence is occurring to derail the freshly started peace process between India and Pakistan. 
The opposition had also sounded alert for the government about the problem being fomented by LeT and other militant groups. 
"Pakistan is involved in stone-pelting. Stones are brought in trucks with each truckload costing Rs 1,000 to Rs 1,200. Boys are paid Rs 500 each for pelting stones. This is a low cost, high impact strategy being used by terrorist groups whose middle level leadership was liquidated by forces," BJP spokesperson Prakash Javadekar had said on July 1. 
Even the Union Home Minister had said in a press conference that LeT could be involved the Valley's new trouble. 
Army has now been deployed in parts of the state after the govt requested the same. 
Shocking details 
Separatist groups especially those owing allegiance to Pakistan-terror outfit Hizbul Mujahideen and Lashker-e-Taiba are alleged to have formed several groups comprising a minimum of dozen people, sources in the interrogation team said. 
This was revealed during extensive interrogation of a stone pelter arrested by the Jammu and Kashmir police in Februray. 
These groups are paid a hefty amount ranging between Rs5 to Rs8 lakh, they said, adding a part of this money is handed over to another group known as "initiators" who pick up stones and start pelting on police and para-military forces -- sometimes on trivial issues. 
The groups, which are alleged to have been receiving funds from a political party as well, have stationed their people in various localities and other districts of the Valley, the sources said. This could be the reason for stone pelting incidents occurring in a synchronized manner throughout the valley during agitations and protests, they said. 
Adding to the woes of policemen were protestors making use of stones and building material kept by government agencies on roads for construction activities, the sources said.

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## ek_indian

I admit I have not read the article.
However I am quite sure the JnK govt is going nowhere. Those who have even an iota of knowledge about Indian policial system understands it.

Remember, we are responsible nations where change of power is done through a process. But alas, this concept is strange to some.

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## SpArK

*Man arrested after Kashmir intercept asking for more deaths*

Srinagar: The man who has allegedly been recorded in a phone conversation asking for more people to be martyred in Kashmir has been arrested by the Jammu and Kashmir police.

NDTV reported on Thursday evening that Home Ministry sources have intercepted phone conversations between different leaders which suggest that some of the violence in the Valley is being instigated and provoked. In one such conversation, allegedly between Ghulam Mohammed Dar and Shabir Wani, there is a reference to a protest rally in Budgam near Srinagar on July 7. The two men talk of money being exchanged. The phone transcript established Wani saying "There must be more deaths...10-15 more people must be martyred." (Read: Is some of the Kashmir violence planned and instigated?)

Sources in the government are clear that while those instigating violence may be arrested, there is recognition of genuine protests and anger that will have to be tackled politically.

Curfew is currently being strictly enforced in Srinagar. At the request of Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, the Army has returned to the city after 15 years after a new spate of violence over the last month which saw several civilians, including a teenager headed home after a tuition class, killed in clashes between protesters and security forces. Earlier this week, a 25-year-old woman standing at her window, watching the chaos unfold on the streets in one of those protests, was shot by a stray bullet.


The Army is being used on the periphery of Srinagar with the Centre stating that its role is to act as a "deterrent."

The situation in Kashmir is being carefully monitored by the Union government. Home Secretary GK Pillai has visited Srinagar and said the situation is under control, and that the next few days will be crucial in the city's and government's attempt to find peace.


Read more at: Man arrested after Kashmir intercept asking for more deaths

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## Lankan Ranger

*Kashmir curfew widens amid call for Friday protests*

Security forces widened a curfew in Kashmir on Friday as hardline separatists urged residents to march to the Hazratbal Shrine in Srinagar. "Whenever the curfew is relaxed in any of the areas, people are requested to come out on the streets and continue with a peaceful sit-in," a statement by hardliners 

Curfew was clamped to contain violent protests over the killing of locals amid fresh attacks that injured two policemen, officials said.

"We have widened the curfew to ensure a violence-free Friday," a police officer, who declined to be named, told AFP.

People living under the strictly enforced curfew in Srinagar since Tuesday evening, have been facing hardships, especially those who are in urgent need of healthcare and medicines.

Police arrested Shabir Ahmed Wani, one of the two activists of hardline Hurriyat Conference, allegedly involved in a conspiracy to engineer violence in Kashmir Valley and get at least 10 to 15 people killed in a procession.

Wani was booked under various provisions of the Ranbir Penal Code and may be charged under the stringent Public Safety Act, under which he can be detained for two years, they said.

Involvement of hardline separatists in engineering some of the violence in the Kashmir Valley was indicated by the intercepted conversation between the two of them during which they discussed killing of at least 15 people in a procession near Srinagar on July 7.

Towns such as Kupwara and Handwara in the north, Kakpora and Pulwama in south and Gandherbal in the east were placed under fresh curfew. Violent flashpoints such as Sopore, Srinagar and Anantnag remain restricted.

In Sopore, suspected Lashker-e-Taiba militants launched three gun and grenade attacks on security forces on Friday that left a policeman and a paramilitary trooper injured, a police spokesman said.

Police and paramilitary forces, who have been struggling to control the wave of protests in the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley, have been accused of killing 15 civilians in less than a month.

Each death has sparked a new cycle of violence since the first killing of a 17-year old student by a police teargas shell during protests June 11 in Srinagar.

Two men and a woman were killed in Srinagar on Tuesday.

The army was called in on Wednesday in Srinagar after residents defied curfew restrictions and held protests. Their presence brought calm to the streets.

No local newspapers hit the stands for the second day running amid tight restrictions on the local and international media.

"Due to the curbs imposed by the government on media, Greater Kashmir and Kashmir Uzma could not bring out their print editions for second consecutive day, Friday," said the website of the two leading local newspapers.

The state's Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, under pressure to contain the violence, held a meeting with top police and intelligence officials on Friday, a police source said.

Top leaders in the ruling Congress party also met in New Delhi to be briefed by Home Minister P Chidambaram, Press Trust of Indian news agency reported.

Kashmir curfew widens amid call for Friday protests - Hindustan Times


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

*Hurriyat leader held for planning violence in Kashmir( updated)
*
7/9/2010 11:46:16 AM

The state police on Friday arrested one of the two activists of the hardline Hurriyat Conference who were allegedly involved in a conspiracy to engineer violence in Kashmir valley by planning the killing of 10 to 15 people during a procession. 
The police swooped down at a place on Narbal-Magam Road and arrested Shabir Ahmed Wani, district president of the Hurriyat Conference led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani after his conversation with another activist Ghulam Ahmed Dar was intercepted. 
The two were allegedly discussing ways to foment trouble during a procession which was taken out in Budgam district of central Kashmir, official sources said. 
Wani may be charged under the stringent Public Safety Act, under which he can be detained for two years, said sources, adding that a hunt was on to nab Dar, who had gone into hiding immediately after the conversation was made public. 
Involvement of hardline separatists in engineering some of the violence in the Kashmir valley was indicated by the intercepted conversation between the two of them. The duo discussed the killing of at least 15 people in a procession near Srinagar on July 7. 
A large procession had started in Budgam district on the outskirts of Srinagar on Thursday evening and two senior office-bearers of the hardline Hurriyat faction discussed how to utilise it to create casualties, according to the transcript of the conversation available with the home ministry.
According to the transcript, one of the office-bearers, Dar, was heard telling Wani, another office-bearer, that a procession of nearly 20,000 people had started from Magam and was going towards Budgam. At least 10 to 15 people should be 'martyred' as the crowd moved, Dar had told Wani. 
However, the police had dispersed the procession with a mild cane charge and no untoward incident had taken place.

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## GUNNER

*Scepticism in India over claim of Pakistan hand in Kashmir *


*By Cyril Almeida *Friday, 09 Jul, 2010 


NEW DELHI: As the latest spell of violence in Indian-administered Kashmir enters a second month and shows no sign of abating, the Indian governments claim that the violence is being orchestrated by Pakistan and separatist elements in Kashmir is increasingly being met with scepticism inside India.

Countering the state-driven narrative is a tale of anger, hopelessness and frustration among a generation of Valley Muslim teenagers and young men and women barely in their 20s, a post-1990 generation that has been raised amidst the violence of the first Kashmir intifida, has few economic prospects and that does not identify with any of the political parties in Kashmir.

The idea of a poorly organised, youth-driven, apolitical struggle rooted in the bleak possibilities life has to offer for a certain segment of the Muslim population in Indian-administered Kashmir is at sharp variance with the claims of Indian officials that Pakistan or Pakistani-sponsored militants may be behind the latest round of violence.

The Indian Home Ministry has been particularly hawkish on the Pakistan connection, with senior officials, including Home Minister P. Chidambaram, regularly raising the issue of cross-LoC infiltration, militant training camps, and the possible role of the Lashkar-i-Taiba in the violence.

On Wednesday, Congress spokesperson, Jayanthi Natarajan, also waded into the issue, telling reporters, Elements from across the border and the separatists inimical to the unity of our country are trying to create tension and violence in the Valley.

A former Indian high commissioner to Pakistan, G. Parthasarathy, was even more direct in a conversation with Dawn: (APHC separatist leader) Geelani has the backing of the (Jamaat-i-Islami) guns, the Hizbul Mujahideen. Unlike Musharraf, Kayani and co are comfortable with the JI, so theyve activated that link again.

But that theory is largely dismissed outside official circles.
Utter nonsense, said Praveen Swami, a respected analyst on security issues and Kashmir.
The protests have been going on since 2005. They are happening in very specific areas. Nine out of 10 incidents are in three cities (Sopore, Baramullah and Srinagar) and even within those cities, the violence is predominantly in the old parts of the cities.

According to Swami, Mr Geelanis party may be handing out 100 rupee notes but the real reasons for the violence is a generation of Valley youth who have no leadership, no prospects, kids who are completely cut off from the economy and have a number of secular grievances.

The rise of a new peasant elite dislodged the traders and artisans, predominantly Muslims, from their traditional position atop the social and economic pyramid, creating a vacuum that has been filled with anger and despair, Swami explained.

That view was echoed by Srinagar-based journalist Shamim Meraj, Look at their (the protesters) footwear: theyre wearing slippers. They arent very well-to-do. Theres clearly frustration in the valley.

With plenty of blame to go around, the young chief minister of the state, Omar Abdullah, grandson of Sheikh Abdullah, has come in for some stick.

The vote (in state elections in 2008) was for bijli, pani and sarak (electricity, water and roads), according to Sandeep Dixit, an editor with The Hindu, but not much has changed.

Abdullah is particularly criticised for his aloofness during the present crisis: Omar should have gone to the trouble spots, been more visible, seen the dead and injured, according to Shamim Meraj.

As far as Delhi is concerned, Omars a great guy. He is married to a sardarni, his mother is British. He represents what Delhi would like a Muslim leader to be, Shamim added. But religious identity matters in the Valley. He cant even speak the language.

The religious angle is a tricky question, especially with the Indian state seemingly equating all forms of Islamist support with militancy/jihad.
Swami explained, The areas in which violence has occurred have political Islam traditions Islamist strength is undeniably growing But the youth rage is unconnected to the Hurriyat and the (National Conference).

What really makes the Valley a tinderbox, though, is perhaps the heavy-handed tactics of the local police and the paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force, which are responsible for maintaining law and order in the state.

According to Saeed Naqvi, a senior fellow at the Observer Research Foundation, There are right-wing elements in the police that are comfortable with, and even urging the use of, violent tactics for dealing with the stone-throwing protesters. Meraj, the Srinagar-based journalist, observed: Twenty years ago it was a gun (that protesters were using), now it is a stone. And yet the response (of the state) has not changed.

Swami lays most of the blame on the lack of any meaningful debate on autonomy or reform of the police: The bulk of the killing is because of indiscipline and stupidity. (The police) arent trained and overreact.

Important as it may be to rein in an under-trained, trigger-happy police force, there is a consensus that an end to the troubles in the Valley lies in a political solution.

Even the hawkish G. Parthasarathy, the former high commissioner to Pakistan, agrees: The problem cant be dealt with only by law and order means. There has to be a political approach.

Iftikhar Gilani, a well-known Kashmiri journalist, urged that there is no time to be lost: The problem is growing. We havent seen curfew in the north before, in places like Kapuwara. Almost the entire Valley, not just three districts is in trouble.

For Gilani, the violence was embedded in the political problem of Kashmir. If you give them (the protesters) political, democratic space, they can vent their anger.

That space would include giving the Hurriyat, and even other hardliners outside the Hurriyat, the right to hold political meetings instead of placing the leaders under house arrest, according to Gilani.
Look at Kashmir University. No professor is allowed to participate in politics there. But in Jammu University, professors are allowed to participate and the BJP hands out tickets, Gilani observed.

In reality, though, with the army now being called in to patrol in parts of Srinagar, the already distant hopes for a political settlement anytime soon seem to be receding even further.

The speculation that Delhi is unhappy with Omar Abdullah and wants his administration to take a more proactive role to restore peace in the Kashmir Valley using local resources raises an equally vexing question: how can the discredited and controversial local police and CRPF be relied upon now to establish order when they helped disrupt order in the first place?

For G. Parthasarathy the answer is simple: Well handle it. Weve handled worse before.

Praveen Swami was more circumspect: None of the kids protesting are over 20. For the sake of the kids, J&K politicians need to unite. Theyre just kids. Lets not lose them.

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## jha

i think the timing of terrorists could not be better to help this turmoil..Its time to give army a go ahead like '92..Inside pakistan Pak army will act against them and when they flee towards india our forces will be there to pack them off to heaven...

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## PlanetWarrior

This "matyr" concept is strange. The bigwigs sit at home watching the news of how their guys on the ground who are being paid Rs500 to do so throw themselves at flying bullets.

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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

*Govt mulls dialogue in J&K after normalcy*

7/9/2010 1:03:25 AM

New Delhi, July 08: In the midst of deterioration in law and order and taking the help of army, Government has not given up plans of holding a dialogue in Jammu and Kashmir. 
Official sources said that the thinking in the government that once normalcy restored and law and order is under control in the state, all shades of opinion could be invited for a dialogue to evolve a political solution. 
Home Secretary Gopal K Pillai, who returned this morning from Srinagar after assessing the situation in Kashmir valley, briefed Home Minister P Chidambaram on the current situation. 
During his interaction with the State Government officials, the message given to them that no one involved in violence or mischief mongers should be spared and they should put behind bars. 
The State Government has been told to strictly enforce curfew and restore law and order as soon as possible. 
Besides, there should be concentrated deployment of forces rather than spread thin and be vulnerable to attacks from stone pelters. 
Army troops have been deployed mostly in three places outsides Srinagar city and engaged only in patrolling on the streets. 
Sources said in the recent stone pelting incidents, more than 500 people, mostly security personnel, were injured in the Valley. 

Govt mulls dialogue in J&K after normalcy - NorthLines Leading Newspaper Jammu Kashmir


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## SpArK

Government has to create more jobs and opportunities for people of Jam&Kashmr and initialise more developmental activities so that our countrymen from Jamm&Kshmr gets motivated and work towards the development of nation.

Also all the small stones in the streets has to be removed immediately so that nobody finds them to throw.


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## jha

Maybe the bigwigs should be pelted at...

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## jha

here you go...


*176 kg of explosives found at LeT hideout in Kashmir*

JAMMU: Security forces on Friday recovered a huge dump of explosives weighing 176 kgs from a Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) hideout unearthed in Kishtwar district of Jammu and Kashmir.

This is the biggest cache of explosives recovered in the state this year, an army officer said.

Acting on a tip-off, troops of 11 Rashtriya Rifles and Special Task Force launched a search operation in Chatroo in Kishtwar district and busted the LeT hideout, he said.

The troops recovered 176 kgs of explosives from there, which included 75 kgs of explosive material packed in two bags, six IEDs weighing 15 kgs each (90 kgs of explosives), 75 gelatin sticks, 23 grenades, 12 bore rifles and various other materials, the officer said. 

176 kg of explosives found at LeT hideout in Kashmir - India - The Times of India

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## Awesome

The winds of change are blowing. You guys may be hard liners stuck in your old ways, but I think the current beating the Indian Security forces got, *while trying to stop Anti-India protests*, must've pierced the hearts and minds of at least a few of the Indians on the sub-continent that definitely no matter how many times they'd say it to themselves - all is not well in Kashmir.

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## Awesome

Power through, this just shows that the Indian establishment is falling powerless in front of the power of the people!

Girti hui dewaron ko, ek dhaka aur doh!

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## Spring Onion

How many Governor rules Indian Invaders will impose in Occupied Kashmir ??????

Not going to work. Please wake up and smell the coffee. The innocent Kashmiris will keep on struggling against Indian barbarism

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## IndianArmy

Asim Aquil said:


> Power through, this just shows that the Indian establishment is falling powerless in front of the power of the people!
> 
> Girti hui dewaron ko, ek dhaka aur doh!



Obviously, t*his is a democratic Country*... people are The Power , But People are not the final Aswell....

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## warlock

^^^ for outsiders all is well. 
If something is in fact not so well, Its our internal problem and we will handle it.
You dont worry!

(the view of another Indian student)

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## ek_indian

I have to take a big laugh on this.

(1) IA was not in Kashmir. It is called into this mess. Nor it will remain forever. GoI has already given its verdict in this regard.

(2) The student was indeed critical about presence of IA But if question is twisted like succession of Kashmir from India (as many here dream on this forum), you will get some insight information about India. Also many would feel ok with JnK police which infact is full of local people.

(3) The population is more amazed than worried. People are now asking why army was not deployed in red corridor. Had army was given the task of flushing naxalites, the response would change a bit.

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## gubbi

Asim Aquil said:


> The winds of change are blowing. You guys may be hard liners stuck in your old ways, but I think the current beating the Indian Security forces got, *while trying to stop Anti-India protests*, must've pierced the hearts and minds of at least a few of the Indians on the sub-continent that definitely no matter how many times they'd say it to themselves - all is not well in Kashmir.





> While these students are still beating around the bush, but they've finally started to *debate the inevitable outcome for Kashmir* - Kashmiris are no fans of India.


What? Where?
Did you even read the comments carefully?

All the commentators say that deploying the army inside population centers is a wrong move. But that is the perception of a part of the civilian population. However most commentators say that the present situation warrants the presence of the Army, because of a lack of proper riot control training imparted to the J&K police and the CRPF.

If you read those comments again, you will notice that many students asked for transparency and better accountability by the Government of the state to address genuine concerns of the people. What is not well in Kashmir is the lackadaisical attitude of the state government in dealing with people's problems. Apart from that, most commentators support the right to protest, so that the government gets a perspective of the people's problems. They also say that there are certain types of protests which are acceptable and some which are NOT. And in such cases, though many are not happy about it, the Army's deployment is justified.

Show me where in the comments you posted does anyone mention what you claim in your comments.

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## ek_indian

Asim Aquil said:


> Power through, this just shows that the Indian establishment is falling powerless in front of the power of the people!
> 
> Girti hui dewaron ko, ek dhaka aur doh!



You are correct. India is ruled by Indians. 
As for your hypothesis, why not take consideration of all Indians in it?

As for deewar, deewar can not give answer my firend but....

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## Awesome

Even Nehru had this attitude but faced with the Direct Action protests the entire smug attitude came crashing down on 14th August, 1947.


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## Prometheus

ek_indian said:


> You are correct. India is ruled by Indians.
> As for your hypothesis, why not take consideration of all Indians in it?
> 
> As for deewar, deewar can not give answer my firend but....



where this dewar etc came from ????

are these daily payed stone pelters pushing a Dewar????

This remids me of a incident.................recently I was in Udaipur..........a very nice couple from Japan was in our tour group..........in the palace our guide told them to *PUSH THE WALL HARD.*................they started pushing the wall................after a moment Guide told them .....*WHAT happened ???..........Nothing can Happen..........its a wall damm it*

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## Awesome

It's a start, the newer generations have finally started to reflect upon what they are doing to a free and independent nation.

Justifying force and violence to satiate Indian thirst for tyranny would not be possible forever.


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## Frankenstein

warlock said:


> ^^^ for outsiders all is well.
> If something is in fact not so well, Its our internal problem and we will handle it.
> You dont worry!
> 
> (the view of another Indian student)



When their is any news about Kashmir, then it becomes our problem as well, but when its the matter of Human rights violation it become the problem of the *whole world*

ciao


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## gubbi

Asim Aquil said:


> It's a start, the newer generations have finally started to reflect upon what they are doing to a free and independent nation.
> 
> Justifying force and violence to satiate Indian thirst for tyranny would not be possible forever.



These are the very voices which are against the deployment of Army to combat naxals. Do you suppose they also support the naxal movement? That is a ridiculous notion.

In a democracy, the civilian population is loathe to see the Army do law enforcement duties. Though the army has a very high regard among the civilian population, they are NOT welcome to indulge or interfere in day to day affairs of the state. Such matters are best left to the civilian setup, which also includes the Police forces.

And that is what the students are conveying here. Your take on those comments is wrong, AA. Your other aggrandized comments, I shall take with a pinch of salt, for I can understand your POV being as you are across the border. (Seriously? Indian thirst for tyranny??)


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## ek_indian

Asim Aquil said:


> It's a start, the newer generations have finally started to reflect upon what they are doing to a free and independent nation.
> 
> Justifying force and violence to satiate Indian thirst for tyranny would not be possible forever.



I guess wither you totally misread the poll and its conclusion or you are just ignoring it.

Anyways, keep shouting. Thanks.


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## Gene

I find all Pakistani friends are very curious about Kashmir independence !!!! as if it were their dream..
My fellow pakistani friends what ever you say about kashmirblah:),how much you rejuvenate to see your 
daydream,what ever your govt. do to back kashmir issue, kashmir will not separate from india.

all these going on people agitation( backed by anti-india element) will be just a chapter of history...just wait & watch.

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## HINDU

Asim Aquil said:


> It's a start, the newer generations have finally started to reflect upon what they are doing to a free and independent nation.
> 
> Justifying force and violence to satiate Indian thirst for tyranny would not be possible forever.



Newer generation is ready to face any enemy with greater confidence which has come from the economic development and confidence that we can lead reasonably good life in the country...Dont misread newer generation...My generation expects lesser corrupt politicians and if we continue to go in thw way we are going we will hear this type of knee-jerk reactions from your side...
So. keep burning...--another student


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## GoogleIndia

all pak members r thinking that people of Kashmir r not happy with indian govt but reality is that some pak groups r behind the Kashmir riot...but don't worry indian govt. will solve this problem...

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## GoogleIndia

Gene said:


> I find all Pakistani friends are very curious about Kashmir independence !!!! as if it were their dream..
> My fellow pakistani friends what ever you say about kashmirblah:),how much you rejuvenate to see your
> daydream,what ever your govt. do to back kashmir issue, kashmir will not separate from india.
> 
> all these going on people agitation( backed by anti-india element) will be just a chapter of history...just wait & watch.



i hope once pak occupied kashmir will be part of india...

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## hillman32

*I salute freedom fighters of Kashmir.

I wish them early success - liberty from Indian Yoke of Slavery.

They should be free - as all humans are born free.
*

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## hillman32

GoogleIndia said:


> all pak members r thinking that people of Kashmir r not happy with indian govt but reality is that some pak groups r behind the Kashmir riot...but don't worry indian govt. will solve this problem...



*Solution is SIMPLE

PLEBISCITE........................................... promised by Pundit Nehru

Where is the promise ?*

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## javaman

hillman32 said:


> *I salute freedom fighters of Kashmir.
> 
> I wish them early success - liberty from Indian Yoke of Slavery.
> 
> They should be free - as all humans are born free.
> *



keep wishing them


many came,they gone keep wishing


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## Ammyy

hillman32 said:


> *I salute freedom fighters of Kashmir.
> 
> I wish them early success - liberty from Indian Yoke of Slavery.
> 
> They should be free - as all humans are born free.
> *



From 1947 till now ... still dreaming about J&K .... i think your grand grand grand ...............................child will also only can dream about kashmir

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## Prometheus

hillman32 said:


> *Solution is SIMPLE
> 
> PLEBISCITE........................................... promised by Pundit Nehru
> 
> Where is the promise ?*



Nehru is dead..................Learn to live present...............Try Manmohan

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## hillman32

*A Joke :*

Vajpayee and Bush are sitting in a bar. A guy walks in and asks the barman,

'Isn't that Bush and Vajpayee?'

The barman says 'Yep, that's them.'

So the guy walks over and says, 'Hello, what are you guys doing?'

Bush says, 'We're planning world war 3.'

The guy says, 'Really? What's going to happen?'

And Vajpayee says, 'Well, we're going to kill 14 million Pakistanis and one bicycle repairman.'

And the guy exclaimed, 'A bicycle repairman?!! !'

Vajpayee turns to Bush and says, 'See, I told you no-one would worry about the 14 million Pakistanis!'

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## owcc

hillman32 said:


> *A Joke :*
> 
> Vajpayee and Bush are sitting in a bar. A guy walks in and asks the barman,
> 
> 'Isn't that Bush and Vajpayee?'
> 
> The barman says 'Yep, that's them.'
> 
> So the guy walks over and says, 'Hello, what are you guys doing?'
> 
> Bush says, 'We're planning world war 3.'
> 
> The guy says, 'Really? What's going to happen?'
> 
> And Vajpayee says, 'Well, we're going to kill 14 million Pakistanis and one bicycle repairman.'
> 
> And the guy exclaimed, 'A bicycle repairman?!! !'
> 
> Vajpayee turns to Bush and says, 'See, I told you no-one would worry about the 14 million Pakistanis!'



Thats a good one ....thanks for lighting up the atmosphere


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## jbond197

Asim Aquil said:


> Power through, this just shows that the Indian establishment is falling powerless in front of the power of the people!
> 
> Girti hui dewaron ko, ek dhaka aur doh!



Misconception My dear friend. 

*Yeah faulad hai hilte nahi hilega.*

What ever instigators try to do they can not achieve a thing? Go J&J police/CRPF, bring those traitors down who are planning to kill the very same people, who they claim they r saviour of..

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## hillman32

GoogleIndia said:


> Mr.hillman, may be u r on high hill but please come down....their is already independent survey has been conducted in indian kashmir and pak kashmir. and report said that only 2% kashmiri want indian Kashmir as part of Pakistan.



*I agree with you that only only 2% kashmiris are with Pakistan.

So lets do the plebiscite and throw Pakistan out of Kashmir.

It is a chance of Big India to play Big.

Hi - Let do it once for all*

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## majesticpankaj

will u do the PLEBISCITE in ***????


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## owcc

hillman32 said:


> *I agree with you that only only 2% kashmiris are with Pakistan.
> 
> So lets do the plebiscite and throw Pakistan out of Kashmir.
> 
> It is a chance of Big India to play Big.
> 
> Hi - Let do it once for all*



Let this be clear its not wether certain people want independence or certain peole want to be with India or certain people want to join Pakistan
The question is will India give independence or give to Pakistan or maintain status quo.There wil be no plebiscit,there will be no softening of Indian stance .The only factor which India will agree to is make LOC actual border ,if it isnt acceptable then nothing else is happening

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## GoogleIndia

hillman32 said:


> *I agree with you that only only 2% kashmiris are with Pakistan.
> 
> So lets do the plebiscite and throw Pakistan out of Kashmir.
> 
> It is a chance of Big India to play Big.
> 
> Hi - Let do it once for all*



hey what's problem with u guy...once u said india should follow plebiscite and when i said that we can follow plebiscite,than u r irritating.


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## hillman32

owcc said:


> Let this be clear its not wether certain people want independence or certain peole want to be with India or certain people want to join Pakistan
> The question is will India give independence or give to Pakistan or maintain status quo.There wil be no plebiscit,there will be no softening of Indian stance .The only factor which India will agree to is make LOC actual border ,if it isnt acceptable then nothing else is happening



If Kashmiri want Independence - Pakistan will give !!!

How about India ?


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## Ammyy

hillman32 said:


> If Kashmiri want Independence - Pakistan will give !!!
> 
> How about India ?



NO we are not .................................. then what ????

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## jha

*Transcripts show Hizb activist seeking Kashmir details*

NEW DELHI: In clear signs of cross-LoC linkages to the latest trouble in Kashmir, talks intercepted by security agencies reveal how a Hizbul Mujahideen activist based in ***************** Kashmir enquires from a local contact about the status of protests and government response.

The undated transcripts of the conversation describe a person in Shopian in South Kashmir informing Abdul Inquilabi about protests, curfew and troop movement into Srinagar.

"Kya baat hui hai yaar (what has happened, friend?)," asks Inquilabi, who according to security agencies is a Hizbul Mujahideen activist based in ***.

"Pata nahi, halat kharab huyi hai (I do not know, the situation has deteriorated)," responds the unidentified person from Shopian, according to the transcripts.

"Yeh Hindustani fauj panga le rahi hai Kashmiriyon ke saath. Yeh kahan Chhodegi inko (The Indian Army is troubling Kashmiris. It will not spare them)," remarks Inquilabi.

"Chhodte nahi yeh (They don't spare)," is the response. Then Inquilabi asks whether stone-pelting has begun and the answer is in affirmative.

Inquilabi asks whether a procession is to be taken out on that day and the response is that at 9 AM it will start.

The Shopian-based person says that an announcement had been made in the morning that all should participate in the protest. He then informs that security forces have clamped curfew at night itself.

Inquilabi says that he has heard about more Army being requisitioned. The response is, "Yes, some have reached."

Inquilabi then asks, "Was Army not there earlier?" His contact replies that it is in some strength in Srinagar, but in Shopian and Pulwama it is CRPF and police. 

Transcripts show Hizb activist seeking Kashmir details - India - The Times of India

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## majesticpankaj

hillman32 said:


> *I salute freedom fighters of Kashmir.
> 
> I wish them early success - liberty from Indian Yoke of Slavery.
> 
> They should be free - as all humans are born free.
> *





hillman32 said:


> *I agree with you that only only 2% kashmiris are with Pakistan.
> 
> So lets do the plebiscite and throw Pakistan out of Kashmir.
> 
> It is a chance of Big India to play Big.
> 
> 
> hey will u conduct PLEBISCITE in ur side of kashamir??? wt do u say??*


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## owcc

hillman32 said:


> If Kashmiri want Independence - Pakistan will give !!!
> 
> How about India ?



I think I made it clear India has invested too much in Kashmir to leave it .India wont give independence.Now yu can sit and blame us for me writing this but you should accept the writing on the wall and find out ways to have peace with India.A conflict or competition with India isnt something you can afford easily.It is easy to be EMOTIONAL but even more diffcult to be PRAGMATIC.

So rather than bashing each other lets accept ground realities and try to make way forward rather than fight over issues which will never ever happen.

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## GoogleIndia

hillman32 said:


> If Kashmiri want Independence - Pakistan will give !!!
> 
> How about India ?



it's clear in survey that only 44% people want Kashmir as separate entity....so their is no chance for it...

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## hillman32

I can only say - Look in the mirror

thats all.


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## Dr.Evil

hillman32 said:


> If Kashmiri want Independence - Pakistan will give !!!
> 
> How about India ?



Why do you give Independence to part of Kashmir under illegal occupation of pak army.

Then we will think about it.


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## hillman32

Dr.Evil said:


> Why do you give Independence to part of Kashmir under illegal occupation of pak army.
> 
> Then we will think about it.




Kashmiri want Independence from Yoke of Indian slavery and for that they are struggling.

We are ready to give them independence and India is not ready.

Soon they will win and Maoists will also deflate India by that time.


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## majesticpankaj

hillman32 said:


> Kashmiri want Independence from Yoke of Indian slavery and for that they are struggling.
> 
> We are ready to give them independence and India is not ready.
> 
> Soon they will win and Maoists will also deflate India by that time.


see, who is saying?? first look after taliban. apne ghar ko pehle sambaal lo (lawless region of SWAT and terrorist safe haven) fir dusri jagah ko aazaad karane ki sochna. tell me what you gonna do after maoists deflate us?? no offence, just curious.

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## Dr.Evil

hillman32 said:


> Kashmiri want Independence from Yoke of Indian slavery and for that they are struggling.
> 
> We are ready to give them independence and India is not ready.
> 
> Soon they will win and Maoists will also deflate India by that time.



Who is stopping you guys from giving independece to the area controlled by You ?

First control what's happening in Mohmand today.

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## hillman32

Dr.Evil said:


> Who is stopping you guys from giving independece to the area controlled by You ?
> 
> First control what's happening in Mohmand today.





*Indian agents had carried out bomb blast in Mohmand Agency.

Why do not you tell RAW to stop killing innocent people in Pakistan.

Else 

We pay you back with same coin !!!!!*


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## Dr.Evil

hillman32 said:


> *Indian agents had carried out bomb blast in Mohmand Agency.
> 
> Why do not you tell RAW to stop killing innocent people in Pakistan.
> 
> Else
> 
> We pay you back with same coin !!!!!*



Did they come and tell you ?

Dont you think you are getting the payback.

Just keep to the topic.

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## majesticpankaj

hillman32 said:


> *Indian agents had carried out bomb blast in Mohmand Agency.
> 
> Why do not you tell RAW to stop killing innocent people in Pakistan.
> 
> Else
> 
> We pay you back with same coin !!!!!*


are you out of your mind??? you donot hav any evidence and taliban already have taken the responsibility of the attack, and you are talking like this !!! pls get rid of your anti indian mentality. reamaining in denial mode for so long is not good. all the best.

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## jbond197

hillman32 said:


> *Indian agents had carried out bomb blast in Mohmand Agency.
> 
> Why do not you tell RAW to stop killing innocent people in Pakistan.
> 
> Else
> 
> We pay you back with same coin !!!!!*



On other thread, you were blaming Hinduism legacy for your social issues. Here you are blaming India for your political issues. Pakistan to Doodh ka dhula hai. It is open minded, with no religious bigotry and all clean. 

Blaiming all your problems on India and other religions is something i think is taught religiously to you.

Taste the reality, Taliban is an evil created by you which is biting u back

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## Areesh

DRDO said:


> NO we are not .................................. then what ????



Don't cry if Kashmiris become violent or resort to militancy. Your policies are responsible for it.


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## dabong1

The owners of newspapers in Srinagar in Indian-administered Kashmir have suspended production because of curbs imposed by the government.

On Wednesday, curfew passes issued to journalists were cancelled, making their movement impossible.

On Friday, fresh passes were issued to some editors and senior journalists.

But owners say they will not be able to resume publication unless all staff return to work. Media groups across India have criticised the curbs.

*On Friday, a BBC Urdu service journalist, Riaz Masroor, was stopped and beaten by police as he was going to collect his curfew pass.

He suffered a fractured arm.*

In the past month, 14 civilians have died in clashes between protesters and the security forces.

'Curfew widened'

Meanwhile, authorities have extended a curfew to cover 15 towns in the Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley.

The curfew has been in place for the past three days in Srinagar.

"We have widened the curfew to ensure a violence-free Friday," news agency AFP quoted an unnamed police officer as saying.

Towns such as Kupwara and Handwara in the north, Kakpora and Pulwama in the south and Ganderbal in the east have now been placed under curfew.

On Wednesday, army soldiers marched through Srinagar in a show of force to help quell street protests.

Correspondents say the Indian government is concerned over the situation, especially as the country's foreign minister is due to hold talks with Pakistan next week.

Kashmir is an issue that has long affected relations between the two countries - both claim the territory in its entirety.

The Indian government has already accused Pakistan-based militant groups of instigating the latest protests.

BBC News - Kashmir newspapers suspend production to protest curbs

If a BBC journo is getting assaulted what is happening to the common kashmiri?


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## javaman

yaar bas karo,y make separate threads,do post in single one

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## EjazR

*@civfanatic*
You agree that Pakistani based militants have killed of JKLF activists and then you don't agree that Mirwaiz Umar Farooq father was killed by militants? And this is what the Hurriyat (M) activists say andArif Jamal also noted in his book *Shadow War*. His father was pro-dialouge and was talking to GoI so him dyingwas a loss for the GoI. Samething happened with Sajjad Lone's father.
The point is that any pro-independance or a sepratists who starts a dialouge with GoI is targetted. I can give you a long list for that.

The thing is that with HR violations everyone is united, even pro-Indian Kashmiris and the Indian civil society.

And I'm not sure if you know but the author usually holds an anti-government stance in most of his articles and in his intial articleswas also calling for protests against the encounter killings. IF you read the article he is not praising the government for anything.

Geelani is popular? He got booted out in the recent elections of hisown organisation Jamaat-Islami.
*http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/53403-geelani-suspended-jamaat-islami-jammu-kashmir.html*

Many Pakistanis don't realise that Geelani is as popular in Kashmir as the religious parties are in Pakistan i.e. not much but they have small core of dedicated people.

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## S_O_C_O_M

intellect said:


> Yesterday I asked a question but Pakistani members did not respond.
> Perhaps it was overlooked.
> 
> So I am repeating it.
> 
> Why does not Pakistan army and ALL the ONE MILLION militants that you have ( in SWAT ,FATA , Waziristan, Punjab) TOGETHER STORM THE LINE OF CONTROL.
> 
> Even if You DON T WIN your terrorism problem will end
> 
> Has Pakistan Army given up the dream of conquering kashmir



Where did you get the figure 1 million militants? Are you being cynical because I can be cynical too. Hindu Times of India reported that there are only 30,000-35,000 militants in Pakistan total. 

To answer your question - storming the line of control it will result in a nuclear war with the end result of India being a nuclear wasteland.

Any more questions?


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## billi

GUNNER said:


> *Scepticism in India over claim of Pakistan hand in Kashmir *
> 
> 
> *By Cyril Almeida *Friday, 09 Jul, 2010
> 
> 
> NEW DELHI: As the latest spell of violence in Indian-administered Kashmir enters a second month and shows no sign of abating, the Indian governments claim that the violence is being orchestrated by Pakistan and separatist elements in Kashmir is increasingly being met with scepticism inside India.
> 
> Countering the state-driven narrative is a tale of anger, hopelessness and frustration among a generation of Valley Muslim teenagers and young men and women barely in their 20s, a post-1990 generation that has been raised amidst the violence of the first Kashmir intifida, has few economic prospects and that does not identify with any of the political parties in Kashmir.
> 
> The idea of a poorly organised, youth-driven, apolitical struggle rooted in the bleak possibilities life has to offer for a certain segment of the Muslim population in Indian-administered Kashmir is at sharp variance with the claims of Indian officials that Pakistan or Pakistani-sponsored militants may be behind the latest round of violence.
> 
> The Indian Home Ministry has been particularly hawkish on the Pakistan connection, with senior officials, including Home Minister P. Chidambaram, regularly raising the issue of cross-LoC infiltration, militant training camps, and the possible role of the Lashkar-i-Taiba in the violence.
> 
> On Wednesday, Congress spokesperson, Jayanthi Natarajan, also waded into the issue, telling reporters, Elements from across the border and the separatists inimical to the unity of our country are trying to create tension and violence in the Valley.
> 
> A former Indian high commissioner to Pakistan, G. Parthasarathy, was even more direct in a conversation with Dawn: (APHC separatist leader) Geelani has the backing of the (Jamaat-i-Islami) guns, the Hizbul Mujahideen. Unlike Musharraf, Kayani and co are comfortable with the JI, so theyve activated that link again.
> 
> But that theory is largely dismissed outside official circles.
> Utter nonsense, said Praveen Swami, a respected analyst on security issues and Kashmir.
> The protests have been going on since 2005. They are happening in very specific areas. Nine out of 10 incidents are in three cities (Sopore, Baramullah and Srinagar) and even within those cities, the violence is predominantly in the old parts of the cities.
> 
> According to Swami, Mr Geelanis party may be handing out 100 rupee notes but the real reasons for the violence is a generation of Valley youth who have no leadership, no prospects, kids who are completely cut off from the economy and have a number of secular grievances.
> 
> The rise of a new peasant elite dislodged the traders and artisans, predominantly Muslims, from their traditional position atop the social and economic pyramid, creating a vacuum that has been filled with anger and despair, Swami explained.
> 
> That view was echoed by Srinagar-based journalist Shamim Meraj, Look at their (the protesters) footwear: theyre wearing slippers. They arent very well-to-do. Theres clearly frustration in the valley.
> 
> With plenty of blame to go around, the young chief minister of the state, Omar Abdullah, grandson of Sheikh Abdullah, has come in for some stick.
> 
> The vote (in state elections in 2008) was for bijli, pani and sarak (electricity, water and roads), according to Sandeep Dixit, an editor with The Hindu, but not much has changed.
> 
> Abdullah is particularly criticised for his aloofness during the present crisis: Omar should have gone to the trouble spots, been more visible, seen the dead and injured, according to Shamim Meraj.
> 
> As far as Delhi is concerned, Omars a great guy. He is married to a sardarni, his mother is British. He represents what Delhi would like a Muslim leader to be, Shamim added. But religious identity matters in the Valley. He cant even speak the language.
> 
> The religious angle is a tricky question, especially with the Indian state seemingly equating all forms of Islamist support with militancy/jihad.
> Swami explained, The areas in which violence has occurred have political Islam traditions Islamist strength is undeniably growing But the youth rage is unconnected to the Hurriyat and the (National Conference).
> 
> What really makes the Valley a tinderbox, though, is perhaps the heavy-handed tactics of the local police and the paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force, which are responsible for maintaining law and order in the state.
> 
> According to Saeed Naqvi, a senior fellow at the Observer Research Foundation, There are right-wing elements in the police that are comfortable with, and even urging the use of, violent tactics for dealing with the stone-throwing protesters. Meraj, the Srinagar-based journalist, observed: Twenty years ago it was a gun (that protesters were using), now it is a stone. And yet the response (of the state) has not changed.
> 
> Swami lays most of the blame on the lack of any meaningful debate on autonomy or reform of the police: The bulk of the killing is because of indiscipline and stupidity. (The police) arent trained and overreact.
> 
> Important as it may be to rein in an under-trained, trigger-happy police force, there is a consensus that an end to the troubles in the Valley lies in a political solution.
> 
> Even the hawkish G. Parthasarathy, the former high commissioner to Pakistan, agrees: The problem cant be dealt with only by law and order means. There has to be a political approach.
> 
> Iftikhar Gilani, a well-known Kashmiri journalist, urged that there is no time to be lost: The problem is growing. We havent seen curfew in the north before, in places like Kapuwara. Almost the entire Valley, not just three districts is in trouble.
> 
> For Gilani, the violence was embedded in the political problem of Kashmir. If you give them (the protesters) political, democratic space, they can vent their anger.
> 
> That space would include giving the Hurriyat, and even other hardliners outside the Hurriyat, the right to hold political meetings instead of placing the leaders under house arrest, according to Gilani.
> Look at Kashmir University. No professor is allowed to participate in politics there. But in Jammu University, professors are allowed to participate and the BJP hands out tickets, Gilani observed.
> 
> In reality, though, with the army now being called in to patrol in parts of Srinagar, the already distant hopes for a political settlement anytime soon seem to be receding even further.
> 
> The speculation that Delhi is unhappy with Omar Abdullah and wants his administration to take a more proactive role to restore peace in the Kashmir Valley using local resources raises an equally vexing question: how can the discredited and controversial local police and CRPF be relied upon now to establish order when they helped disrupt order in the first place?
> 
> For G. Parthasarathy the answer is simple: Well handle it. Weve handled worse before.
> 
> Praveen Swami was more circumspect: None of the kids protesting are over 20. For the sake of the kids, J&K politicians need to unite. Theyre just kids. Lets not lose them.



next time dont ever say Indian media is crappy or biased or prejudiced. We have the best press in the world at least in terms of ethics.


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## S_O_C_O_M

intellect said:


> If there are only 35000 militants then why are you using artillery and
> bombers.
> 
> There are one million militants .That is why all central and punjab governments are helpless. Militancy is a profession.
> 
> India's conventional strength is so BIG that we dont need to use nuclear weapons.
> 
> pakistan wants kashmir but FREE ,ie does not want to FIGHT for it.
> 
> You have lost THE WILL to fight India .



Its 100&#37; guranteed that 3/4 of the indians that post in ths forum are under 18.


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## Swift

They want Kashmir but dont want to get hands dirty because they have learnt hard way(East Pakistan) that they are not up to mark.

Thats why keep playing the game using these stooges. Kashmir's are being fooled. There development is being sabotaged, If its such a just cause then why dont use your mighty army to get the job done.


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## RedKnight

There are reports coming in media that Hurriyat leaders are enticing mobs and there was credible conversation between two leaders saying "atleast 15 people should be matryed today" .

Too much dirty politics going on...shhheezee

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## brahmastra

Kashmir belongs To INDIA (Funny Proof)

An ingenious example of speech and politics occurred recently in the United Nations Assembly that made the world community smile.

A representative from India began: 'Before beginning my talk I want to tell you something about Rishi Kashyap of Kashmir, after whom Kashmir is named.

When he struck a rock and it brought forth water, he thought, 'What a good opportunity to have a bath.'

He removed his clothes, put them aside on the rock and entered the water..

When he got out and wanted to dress, his clothes had vanished. A Pakistani had stolen them..'

The Pakistani representative jumped up furiously and shouted, 'What are you talking about? The Pakistanis weren't there then.'

The Indian representative smiled and said, 'And now that we have made that clear, I will begin my speech.'

And they say Kashmir belongs to them...

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## SpArK

*A brief history of Kashmir  Way before 1947 *

Legends have it that Rishi Kashyapa, reclaimed the land of the Kashmir valley from a vast lake, known as Satisar, after goddess Sati, the consort of Lord Shiva. In ancient times, this land was called Kashyapamar (after Kashyapa) that later became Kashmir. The ancient Greeks called it Kasperia, and the Chinese pilgrim Hiun-Tsang who visited the valley in the 7th century AD, called it Kashi -mi -lo.

Kashmir was always ruled by Hindus until 1346, the year of the advent of muslim invaders.The Mughals ruled Kashmir from 1587 to 1752  a period of peace and order. This was followed by a dark period (1752-1819), when Afghan despots ruled Kashmir. The Muslim period, which lasted for about 500 years, came to an end with the annexation of Kashmir to the Sikh kingdom of Punjab in 1819. The Kashmir region, in its present form, became a part of the Hindu Dogra kingdom at the end of the First Sikh War in 1846, when, by the treaties of Lahore and Amritsar, Maharaja Gulab Singh, the Dogra ruler of Jammu, was made the ruler of Kashmir to the eastward of the River Indus and westward of the River Ravi. The Dogra rulers  Maharaja Gulab Singh (1846 to 1857), Maharaja Ranbir Singh (1857 to 1885), Maharaja Pratap Singh (1885 to 1925), and Maharaja Hari Singh (1925 to 1950)  laid the foundations of the modern Jammu & Kashmir state.


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## Indiarox

RedKnight said:


> There are reports coming in media that Hurriyat leaders are enticing mobs and there was credible conversation between two leaders saying "atleast 15 people should be matryed today" .
> 
> Too much dirty politics going on...shhheezee



the Hardliners(not moderate hurriyat) are doing this they are asking for more Kashmiri youth to be killed to keep the fire of the unrest burning and they talk of organised violence to cause kashmiri deaths .
damn these fools

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## devd

Jana said:


> How many Governor rules Indian Invaders will impose in Occupied Kashmir ??????
> 
> Not going to work. Please wake up and smell the coffee. The innocent Kashmiris will keep on struggling against Indian barbarism



And world will keep quite and watch the video game. 
Some times i like the Indian diplomacy at world level


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## Panditji

AM, I don't see what was wrong in my comment - It is true that Yasin Malik is married to a Britain-born Pakistani girl, Mushaal Mullick. So by that logic, he is damaad of Pakistan. Why are you always on a hair trigger?


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## liberalindian8

Jana said:


> How many Governor rules Indian Invaders will impose in Occupied Kashmir ??????
> 
> Not going to work. Please wake up and smell the coffee. The innocent Kashmiris will keep on struggling against Indian barbarism



No matter how much they try, they won't get Kashmir. If they like Pakistan, they are free to go anytime. Indian government will provide free bus service to them upto the LOC.


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## S_O_C_O_M

This angers me to the core.


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## Awesome

India is doing everything to prove it's rule is tyrannical. Now shutting down the free-press!

Ridiculous! This is so going to snowball! All signs that the Indian back is almost broken on Kashmir

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## owcc

Asim Aquil said:


> India is doing everything to prove it's rule is tyrannical. Now shutting down the free-press!
> 
> Ridiculous! This is so going to snowball! All signs that the Indian back is almost broken on Kashmir



You are probably right but India will remain in Kashmir no matter what and we both know that.None will separate Tibet from China or India from Kashmir


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## Awesome

intellect said:


> Yesterday I asked a question but Pakistani members did not respond.
> Perhaps it was overlooked.
> 
> So I am repeating it.
> 
> Why does not Pakistan army and ALL the ONE MILLION militants that you have ( in SWAT ,FATA , Waziristan, Punjab) TOGETHER STORM THE LINE OF CONTROL.
> 
> Even if You DON T WIN your terrorism problem will end
> 
> Has Pakistan Army given up the dream of conquering kashmir


The Kashmiri shoes and sticks are doing a better job and thrashing Indian security forces, our support is always ready whenever the Kashmiris would ask for it.


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## Awesome

afriend said:


> Because we know the reason of their hate, and we are trying to explain them the situation, but unfortunately some fanatics in the seperatists fold with the help of extrimists whose life is dedicated to formenting trouble in india, is brain washing the teenage kids who had only seen violence in their lifes and that is a fact, and why are YOU having trouble in accpeting that fact if i may ask the counter question..!!!


Dude you're enslaving them and then telling them why it's good for you. They beat your security forces with shoes! That is the level of disdain they have for India.

You can't logic your way into their hearts - you are the problem.


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## Awesome

Another round of Indians admitting the obvious - the deluded ones will have their backs broken as well...



> What The Papers Said: The Indian Army in Kashmir - India Real Time - WSJ
> 
> By Krishna Pokharel
> 
> This weekend, India Real Time offers a roundup of opinions and analyses from Indian newspapers, magazines and websites on a key news events: the deployment of the Indian Army in the streets of Srinagar and other parts of Indian-controlled Kashmir as anti-government protests intensified and the state police and paramilitary forces appeared insufficient to maintain order.
> 
> Strategic analyst and former Indian senior bureaucrat, B.Raman wrote on the website of Outlook magazine: The current movement started due to some anger against the security forces. Perceptions of political indifference to that anger have led to the anger turning against the political leadership. We find ourselves caught in a vicious circle. The more the publicly expressed anger against the security forces, the more the force used against the agitators and the more the force used against the agitators, the more the anger against the security forces.
> 
> Mr. Ramans proposal to reduce the anger in Srinagar: Better methods of street control to avoid the use of firearms, prompt and satisfactory attention to the complaints of the people regarding excessive use of force and violations of human rights, greater interactions between the government and the agitating youth, greater control over our rhetoric to avoid demonization of the agitators and attempts to remove the impression that the government tends to bat for the errant elements in the security forces and not for the people are some of the immediate steps required. The use of the army against the street agitators would be unwise unless the situation turns desperate leaving no other option.
> 
> In its take, the Hindustan Times turned to the criticism of the administration of Jammu & Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, saying Srinagar had been deaf to Kashmir. It further said in its Friday editorial: *Chief Minister Omar Abdullah has lost control of his state.* The question now is whether he can recover it. Unfortunately, going by the facts on the ground that have culminated in the deployment of the Indian Army as a deterrent to enforce peace and order around, if not in Srinagar, for the first time since at least 15 years, *it doesnt even seem that Mr. Abdullah is too keen to wrest control*. [Giving in to inevitability?]
> 
> Writing on the op-ed page of Thursdays Hindustan Times, Amitabh Mattoo, professor at New Delhis Jawaharlal Nehru University, opined what is immediately required is for New Delhi and Srinagar to fully understand the anatomy of the uprising and then craft policies that can quell this rage.
> 
> He further wrote: *Unlike in the past, the writ of the state is not being challenged primarily by a popular insurgency or by militant organizations or even by a separatist cartel. Instead, its the anger of a new generation of young men and women who have grown up in these two decades of conflict, which is translating into resilient protests in many parts of the Kashmir valley. And tragically, most of those killed over the last weeks have been young people, often in the prime of their life*.
> 
> Mr. Mattoos advice to the government in New Delhi: But all is still not lost. Much, as has been indicated, can be done unilaterally and immediately to respond to the deep yearning of the young people of the state for security in all its dimensions: that is freedom from fear in the physical, political, economic and cultural spheres.
> 
> The Pioneer newspaper in its editorial Thursday said, Theres clearly a pattern to the protests engineered by the separatists with more than a little help from their masters in Islamabad and Rawalpindi.
> 
> The Times of India editorial on Friday said the latest spiral of violence in Kashmir essentially showed the failure  or the lack  of political leadership there. *When children and teenagers turn out to lead protests, it exposes a glaring leadership vacuum in society*, the paper said. J&K is a political issue. A long-term settlement would require bringing Islamabad on board. While efforts should be made towards this, there are plenty of things to be done independently.
> 
> Let us know what you think of the armys deployment in Kashmir in the Comments.



The Indian media is also slowly coming to the realization that they are the bad guys in Kashmir.

There is a change in tone from all corners of India. The delusional will have to give in eventually. Power on, Kashmir!

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## ice_man

let's make one thing clear to all indians:

NAXALITES is india's internal problem!! 

KASHMIR is DISPUTED TERRITORY & IS NOT & WILL NOT EVER BE INDIA's problem alone!!


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## Awesome

Every facet of Kashmiri society is joining hands - this movement has been stronger than anything ever seen in Kashmir before



> Civil society groups demand immediate end to violence in Kashmir | TwoCircles.net
> 
> New Delhi: In order to register protest against killings of innocent civilians in Kashmir, a Dharna was organized by ANHAD (Act Now for Harmony and Democracy) at Jantar Mantar on Thursday, 8th of July, 2010. Representatives from various civil society organizations took part in the Dharna to extend their solidarity to the people of Kashmir.
> 
> Speaking at the occasion Shabnam Hashmi, prominent social activist and founder of ANHAD, condemned the killing of innocent civilians and rampant human rights violation in the state. Expressing her angst at the disturbing situation in the state she said that peoples voice can not be stopped by bullets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She categorically asked, why doesnt the governments use bullet and army, when Shiv Sena and Vishwa Hindu Parishad goons disturb communal harmony? Why didnt the government use bullet to stop rioters from raping women in Gujarat?
> 
> She demanded that the Armed Forces Special Powers Act should be withdrawn from the state immediately.
> 
> Participants of the Dharna endorsed a final statement, which expressed their grave concern at the absence of any sensitive reaction by the Central Government, in response to the ongoing deaths, injuries and killings in cold-blood of civilians in Srinagar and Anantnag districts of Jammu and Kashmir, including young girls and boys, most of them innocent, peaceful protestors.
> 
> Talking about the protesters in the state, the statement pointed out these are unarmed, non-violent citizens, who are being treated with such blatant and indiscriminate use of military force -- why? Is there no other way to negotiate with civil unrest? And what is the root cause of this civil unrest if not the brutalities executed by the police and para military forces? And what about cases of atrocities committed on people who are not even protesting?
> 
> The participants of the Dharna put few demands from the Central and the State governments, among which putting an end to the violence perpetrated by the security forces with immediate effect and Immediately appointing an independent time bound Commission of Enquiry to look into the killings of peaceful civilians & human rights violations, were the most prominent ones. They also demanded that the freedom of expression and press and safety of media persons should be ensured in any case.
> 
> Expressing serious concern over the complete lack of political initiative displayed by the UPA-led central government in response to the situation in the valley, the statement also demanded from the central and state governments, to immediately start a political dialogue with various stake holders, as the people of Jammu and Kashmir deserve a more rational, humane, visionary and sensitive response from the Indian State.
> 
> People who participated in the Dharna were Swami Agnivesh, Shabnam Hashmi (ANHAD), Harsh Kapoor (South Asia Citizen Web), Navaid Hamid ( member, NIC), Prof. Kamal Mitra Chenoy (JNU), Prof. Anuradha Chenoy (JNU), Indu Prakash (IGSSS), Madhu Chandra (North Eastern Helpline), DivyavVinod (YWCA), Sanjay Kumar (AAA), Ravi Himadri (The other Media), Prof. Rizwan Kaisar (Jamia Millia Islamia) and others.
> 
> These demands were endorsed by:
> 
> 1.	Aashima Subberwal- Delhi University
> 2.	Abeer Gupta - filmmaker
> 3.	Adnan Nabi  Kashmir
> 4.	Alana Hunt  Artist
> 5.	Ali Asghar  Social Activist, Hyderabad
> 6.	Amandra  AAA
> 7.	Amit Sengupta, Journalist, Delhi
> 8.	Amrita Nandy  SANGAT
> 9.	Anil Choudhury- Peace
> 10.	Anjali Thomas  Student DU
> 11.	Anjum Rajabali, Cinema Script writer
> 12.	Ankita Dash  Student DU
> 13.	Appu Esthose Suresh - The Sunday Guardian, Delhi
> 14.	Aqsa Anjum  Delhi
> 15.	Arindam Jit Singh  Team Nishan
> 16.	Arun Kumar Tiwari  Anhad
> 17.	Aslam Khan  Student, Jamia Milia Islamia
> 18.	Astha Rajan  Anhad
> 19.	Atique Farooqui  Lucknow
> 20.	Avinash Kumar-Oxfam India
> 21.	Barkat
> 22.	Biju Mathew  Professor of Business, Rider University, NJ, USA
> 23.	Bindia Thapar - Architect/Illustrator, New Delhi.
> 24.	Bobby Kunhu  Researcher and Writer
> 25.	Chandra Nigam
> 26.	Colin Gonsalves-Human Rights Law Network
> 27.	David Devadas - Senior Journalist
> 28.	Dev Desai  Gujarat
> 29.	Dhananjay Tripathi  South Asians for Human Rights
> 30.	Divya Vinod  YWCA
> 31.	Dunu Roy  Hazards Centre
> 32.	Fahad Shah, journalist, Srinagar
> 33.	Faizen Haider Naqvi - Businessman, Delhi
> 34.	Gauri Dasan Nair  Senior Journalist, kerala
> 35.	Gowher Nabi Gora  J and K
> 36.	Harsh Dobhal- Human Rights Law Network
> 37.	Harsh Kapoor  South Asia Citizens Web
> 38.	Inder Salim  Activist
> 39.	Indu Prakash Singh- IGSSS
> 40.	John Dayal- General Secretary, All India Christian Council
> 41.	Kallol Bhowmik - Spl Correspondent Ajir Dainik Batori and Eastern Chronicle
> 42.	Kalpana Tikku 
> 43.	Kashif-ul-Huda - Editor, TwoCircles.net
> 44.	Madhu Chandra - All India Christian Council & North East Support Centre & Helpline
> 45.	Madhura Chakrvoraty  Student Jadhavpur University, West Bengal
> 46.	Maia Barkaia  JNU student
> 47.	Manas Arora  Student, IP College of Engineering
> 48.	Manasi Pingle  Student, DU
> 49.	Manisha Sethi  Jamia Teachers Solidarity Association
> 50.	Manisha Trivedi  Anhad Gujarat
> 51.	Manjit Singh Roperia  Student Hissar
> 52.	Mankasha
> 53.	Mansi Sharma-Anhad
> 54.	Meeta Bhandari  IGSSS
> 55.	Moggallan Bharti  JNU student
> 56.	Mohan Kumawat- Anhad
> 57.	Mohd. Ali - Delhi Correspondent of news website TwoCircles.net
> 58.	Mudassir Kawa, Activist, Srinagar
> 59.	Mukul Manglik  Historian Delhi University
> 60.	Murli Natarajan, South Asia Solidarity Initiative, USA
> 61.	Mushtaq Koka, Activist, Srinagar
> 62.	Naazim Mohammed  Social Activist, Bangalore
> 63.	Nadeem  IGSSS
> 64.	Nadim Nikhat - Centre for Social Justice, Ahmedabad, Gujarat
> 65.	Navaid Hamid -Social Activist
> 66.	Neha Dhole, Aman Trust, New Delhi
> 67.	Prasad Chako- NCDHR
> 68.	Pratap Singh Negi, Anhad
> 69.	Prativa Thomas  Amnesty International, UK
> 70.	Prem Dangwal  Anhad Mumbai
> 71.	Prof Anuradha Chenoy, JNU, Delhi
> 72.	Prof Kamal Mitra Chenoy, JNU, Delhi
> 73.	Prof. KN Panikkar, Historian
> 74.	Prof. Rizwan Kaiser  Jamia Milia Islami
> 75.	Raj Gopalan  Trivandrum, Kerala
> 76.	Ram Puniyani  Ekta, Mumbai
> 77.	Rashid Ali  Freelance Journalist
> 78.	Rima Aranha
> 79.	Rohit Sinha  Student DU
> 80.	Rupal Oza, South Asia Solidarity Initiative
> 81.	Saaimah Khwaja
> 82.	Saba Diwan  Film maker
> 83.	Sabir Hussain  Jammu and Kashmir
> 84.	Sachin Pandya  Anhad Gujarat
> 85.	Sania Hashmi  Anhad
> 86.	Sanjay Kumar  AAA
> 87.	Sanjay Sharma  Anhad
> 88.	Sanjeev Mahajan, CA, USA
> 89.	Saqib Sana - Mumbai
> 90.	Sargam Mehra
> 91.	Seema Duhan-Anhad
> 92.	Seher Hashmi
> 93.	Shabir Hussain  Srinagar, J &K
> 94.	Shabnam Hashmi- social activist, Anhad
> 95.	Shahnawaz Malik  Lucknow
> 96.	Shaweta Anand, Journalist and Researcher
> 97.	Sheeba Aslam Fehmi  Researcher JNU
> 98.	Shesh Narain Singh-Senior Journalist
> 99.	Shivayan Raha  The Other Media
> 100.	Shoaib Khan  Srinagar, J&K
> 101.	Shrish Chandra  Lucknow University
> 102.	Shweta Tripathi  Programme Officer, SHRUTI
> 103.	Sohaib Niazi  Student, Jamia Milia Islamia
> 104.	Sohail Hashmi-Social Activist
> 105.	Sonam Gupta - Anhad
> 106.	Sonia Jabbar- Independent Filmmaker
> 107.	Sri Nidhi Baglodia
> 108.	Tanveer Hussain Khan -Anhad Kashmir Coordinator
> 109.	Thulasi Kakkat  Photographer, Kerela
> 110.	Uma Chakravarty- Academician
> 111.	Vijayan- Delhi Forum
> 112.	Vrinda Grover- Human Rights Lawyer, Supreme Court
> 113.	Waqar Kazi  Anhad Mumbai
> 114.	Wasim Khan, NJ, USA
> 115.	Yasmeen Qureshi, Human Rights Activist, CA, USA
> 116.	Zafar Abbas  journalist, Delhi
> 117.	Zafar Agha, journalist, Delhi






> The Hindu : National : Democracy under severe strain in Kashmir
> 
> Aarti Dhar
> NEW DELHI: Civil society groups have demanded an immediate end to alleged violence perpetrated by the security forces in the Kashmir Valley and setting up of an independent time-bound commission of inquiry to probe the killings and rights violations.
> 
> At a dharna held here on Friday, the civil society groups said it was a matter of grave concern and anguish that no sensitive measures were taken by the Centre in response to the ongoing deaths, injuries and killings of civilians in the Valley. To make the matters worse, the Army, along with para-military forces, was issued orders to shoot-at-sight to uphold the almost relentless curfew  basically to block protests against the continuing spiral of non-stop and indiscriminate killings'' of innocent civilians.
> 
> *The presence of the Army and security forces dominates the Valley and reinforces the deep-rooted angst of people.* The reality is that *democracy is under severe strain and is almost absent in many parts in the State, despite an elected government backed by the Centre holding the reigns of power in Srinagar*,'' a statement issued by Act Now for Harmony and Democracy (ANHAD) and endorsed by civil society groups, intellectuals and individuals said.
> 
> The statement said the Centre and the State should come out clean and explain i*f this was indeed a democratic and constitutional method of handling a manifold and multiplying crisis in a highly sensitive region.
> *
> *People cannot be won over or suppressed at gunpoint. Certainly, the people of Jammu and Kashmir deserved a more rationale, humane, visionary and sensitive response from the Indian state, the statement said.*


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## Fireurimagination

Asim Aquil said:


> Another round of Indians admitting the obvious - the deluded ones will have their backs broken as well...
> 
> 
> 
> The Indian media is also slowly coming to the realization that they are the bad guys in Kashmir.
> 
> There is a change in tone from all corners of India. The delusional will have to give in eventually. Power on, Kashmir!



Yup there is a realization that separatists are changing their strategies from Gun to Stones now and different people have different opinion, some believe they should be dealt with a heavy hand and army should be used and some believe otherwise

And about realization that India is hated in Kashmir, we always knew there are people, who are fanatics and they hate India, so? You believe India will pack it's bag and get out of Kashmir fearing stones LOL Kashmir will be India till the end of time, it's status is not uncompromisable/non-negotiable

What Kashmir needs is able administration to control these good for nothing people


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## Indiarox

Prometheus said:


> -
> 
> Army is used for external threats.............and In kashmir we have one........another Indian student says again



I second that taught .

Normally the I wouldn't support the deployment of the military in civilian areas but the rioting is gotten out of control and action of external vested interests has caused the deployment of the military.

In this circumstance *I FULLY SUPPORT THE DEPLOYMENT OF INDIAN ARMY IN SRINAGAR*
GeoffreyRoyanGJ(Indian Student)


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## vsdoc

Asim Aquil said:


> The Kashmiri shoes and sticks are doing a better job and thrashing Indian security forces, our support is always ready whenever the Kashmiris would ask for it.



Its so easy to sit in front of your computer and let loose the false bravado of a defeated national psyche.

The same national psyche which sees itself as the rightful rulers of a thousand years over a weaker pagan race.

The same national psyche which cannot fathom or stomach why inspite of being from such war-like genes, they still had to suffer the humiliation of being defeated on the battlefield and pounded into submission every time they mustered the courage to back up their innate belligerence with action.

The same national psyche which finds it difficult to come to terms with the fact that a dark short fat ugly race has done so much better on the global stage than their own fair and good looking race of ex-rulers.

The same national psyche that takes much needed solace from marrying a woman from the other side as something of a victory to compensate for all other defeats suffered elsewhere, everywhere, with the backdrop of strong poorly masked sexual connotations of forced national copulation by proxy.

Your support has always been there to foment trouble in India Asim. Whether Indian Kashmiris have wanted it or not. Whether they have bled due to your guns fired from their shoulders or not. 

The fact is Asim that Pakistan has long ago lost the stomach for a full frontal fight. Not surprising seeing the results of the past confrontations with us. Proxy wars and online words of false bravado are all that you have left my friend. 

There is nothing else you can really do. Without getting the same treatment once again.

So if the vicarious thrills of using words like stones, shoes, sticks, thrashing etc. takes some of the edge off your own collective national impotence and helplessness, who am I to take that away from you? 

Cheers, Doc

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## mrwarrior006

kashmir is india's state and will remain so

u can call me ignorant ,arrognat or watever but kashmir belongs to india and will remain so

an view from another *indian student*

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## Fireurimagination

Asim Aquil said:


> The Kashmiri shoes and sticks are doing a better job and thrashing Indian security forces, our support is always ready whenever the Kashmiris would ask for it.



Yup keep your support up and next time don't whine that there is a RAW hand in TTP operations or mis-adventures in Pakistan cause our support is always ready whenever some separatists in Pakistan would ask for it


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## Areesh

mrwarrior006 said:


> kashmir is india's state and will remain so
> 
> u can call me ignorant ,arrognat or watever but kashmir belongs to india and will remain so
> 
> an view from another *indian student*



You wasted your time to just post this crap. We know most fan boys believe so.

Lolzzz


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## PracticalGuy

Asim Aquil said:


> It's a start, the newer generations have finally started to reflect upon what they are doing to a free and independent nation.
> 
> Justifying force and violence to satiate Indian thirst for tyranny would not be possible forever.



I dont know to laugh or feel pity at ur exuberance on such issues...Indian Army called to quell the protests in Kashmir after more than a DECADE... yes I accept that it's a failure of Kahmir's govt... but what is there for the Pakistani brothers to rejoice? If calling Army to maintain law and order denotes other things than the maintaining law and order then ..I regret to inform my pakistani friends that why dont you apply the same logic for all over the pakistan where your army is hunting down your own men in various areas? we didnt feel that all those Paksitani areas want "freedom" from the "tyrannical" paksitani army and it's oppression... and I feel pity because pakistani brothers wanted a reprieve from all the sad things happenings in their country and wanted to vent out their agony in this Kashmir thing.. but neverthless may god bless you and I assure you things in Kashmir will be back to normal as its been since last decade and you dont need to waste your pity and consideration on Kashmir as you need that abundantly on the things happening in your own land... may god bless you and give courage to face your problems..

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## mrwarrior006

*@Areesh*


> You wasted your time to just post this crap. We know most fan boys believe so.
> 
> Lolzzz



tnx for caring about my time but u see i dont care about my time 

anyways thank u 

i am no fanboy, isnt the kashmir with us at present


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## ice_man

OK AFTER ALL THE COMMENTS BY* "indian students"* one thing is clear and evident NO INDIAN CARES ABOUT KASHMIRIS ALL THEY CARE ABOUT IS THE LAND OF KASHMIR! 

but i love the tag line (indian student) why don't you guys add anudhati roy or barkha dutt  you boys are not posting on and ndtv blog here


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## dabong1

javaman said:


> yaar bas karo,y make separate threads,do post in single one




What are you talking about?.......this is the kashmir section and this is major news on the BBC site.
If the BBC can give this prominence,so can we.


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## javaman

ice_man said:


> OK AFTER ALL THE COMMENTS BY* "indian students"* one thing is clear and evident NO INDIAN CARES ABOUT KASHMIRIS ALL THEY CARE ABOUT IS THE LAND OF KASHMIR!
> 
> but i love the tag line (indian student) why don't you guys add anudhati roy or barkha dutt  you boys are not posting on and ndtv blog here



aap ko bas arundhati ka hi sahara rah gya tha


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## dabong1

owcc said:


> You are probably right but India will remain in Kashmir no matter what and we both know that.



No we dont.....we know that one day the kashmiris will get freedom like so many other people in history have done.





owcc said:


> None will separate Tibet from China or India from Kashmir



Theres a UN resolution on kashmir but non for tibet,so trying to compare the two is silly.
Kashmir is part of india as much as iraq is part of the USA.

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## javaman

Asim Aquil said:


> India is doing everything to prove it's rule is tyrannical. Now shutting down the free-press!
> 
> Ridiculous! This is so going to snowball! All signs that the Indian back is almost broken on Kashmir



indian back needs pak and china support,so they can stand


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## dabong1

jha said:


> well shooting has never stopped as such...terrorists are still shooting at the forces..only change is that in early 90's the shootings were more frequent...BTW in last 10 years many new things were tried and perhaps a solution was also found ..but again terrorists ( freedom fighters according to you ) could not control their urge ...



So you would have the kashmir's firing shot at you then throwing stones?


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## Ganga

Asim Aquil said:


> *The winds of change are blowing.* You guys may be hard liners stuck in your old ways, but I think the current beating the Indian Security forces got, *while trying to stop Anti-India protests*, must've pierced the hearts and minds of at least a few of the Indians on the sub-continent that definitely no matter how many times they'd say it to themselves - all is not well in Kashmir.



What change are u talking abt??Kashmir will not gain independence from this.Such protests have happened before and will happen in the future but Kashmir will remain an integral part of India.


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## Indiarox

ice_man said:


> OK AFTER ALL THE COMMENTS BY* "indian students"* one thing is clear and evident NO INDIAN CARES ABOUT KASHMIRIS ALL THEY CARE ABOUT IS THE LAND OF KASHMIR!


Yes we do care about the Kashmiris thats why army is not shooting down protesters but instead carrying out Flag marches to enforce rule of law.


ice_man said:


> but i love the tag line (indian student)


We love it too


ice_man said:


> why don't you guys add anudhati roy or barkha dutt



What are you trying to say


ice_man said:


> you boys are not posting on and ndtv blog here


No we are not we are on

Said by a _*Indian student*_


----------



## Areesh

mrwarrior006 said:


> *@Areesh*
> 
> tnx for caring about my time but u see i dont care about my time
> 
> anyways thank u
> 
> i am no fanboy, isnt the kashmir with us at present



Just telling you there enough dombs who repeat this BS time and time again when they don't have anything else to post. Like

"We have Kashmir, it is ours we want give it to anyone. It is our state. It belongs to us. It is our land and more BS like this."

Some goes to even beyond it and start posting smilies like  when they are frustrated about something and don't how to reply.

You are also doing the same.


----------



## ice_man

btw i have a question how much for a stone do these guys get paid??? and does the "SIZE MATTER"??? does the target matter??? where is BARKHA DUTT WITH THIS IMPORTANT RESEARCH???

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## dabong1

Bushy said:


> They tried the guns, and it didn't work.



Yes it did......it was only 9-11 and the mushy promises that stopped the flow of fighters......it can be switched back on any time we feel like.




Bushy said:


> The armed forces in Kashmir are under strict orders not to fire at anyone unless fired upon themselves, so they (the protesters) resort to stone pelting.



You seem to forget that in recent weeks the indian terror machine has killed over 14 teenagers accused of throwing stones......so your lilttle BS about how the indian occupation forces "are under strict orders not to fire at anyone unless fired upon themselves" is nothing more then that....bull5h1t.





Bushy said:


> Stone Pelting has great advantages over bullets -
> 
> 1. Freely available, and greatly abundant.
> 2. Stones are not categorized as weapons, so do not attract firing from the armed forces.
> 3. No skill-set required for stone pelting.
> 4. Children can be easily employed to throw stones with the accuracy and impact as good as those of adults.
> 5. Stone pelting is not considered a terrorist activity and so the throwers are immune to anti-terrorist laws.



If stone throwing has that many advantages over a gun why dont you get the indian occupation forces to drop there weapons and use stones instead.




Bushy said:


> I have been to Sopur which considered the hub of such activities, and have had to bear the brunt of stone throwers, and talked to some too. The fact about stone pelting as a lucrative business is as true as it sounds. If you look for it, you may even find videos of the youth on youtube.com speaking on how the money comes and is distributed along with the stones in this northern part of the valley.



I bet stone pelting is not as a lucrative business as selling weapons and bullets and suppling the indian occuaption forces.


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## Dr sim

I just find it amusing seeing all the pakistanis here trying to solve the problems of kashmiris. they should fix their own country first where their army is murdering people on the afghanistan border which in turn is leading to more innocent lives being lost in lahore,peshawar etc

so,people first fix ur own problems and then try to solve other people's problem


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## Ganga

Jana said:


> The Indian officials even blamed Stone throwing on ISI )) some orange idiots went to the extreme where they claimed that ISI was guding the stone pelters on cell phones  despite the fact that * You can not make a call from Pakistan into Indian Occupied Kashmir*



Most terrorists use satellite telephones.


----------



## Awesome

> *Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - People defy curfew in Bla, Sopore*
> 
> Hundreds of people participated in sit-in protests in Baramulla and Sopore town on Wednesday on a call given by Huriyat Conference as part of its Quit Kashmir movement.
> Defying undeclared curfew, the people poured in from towns and rural areas of Baramulla district at various places and staged the Dharna at Main Chowk, Khwajabagh, Kanispora and Delina in Baramulla town. The people also staged a sit in Sopore town and were chanting pro freedom and anti India slogans on loud speakers.
> The reports also confirmed that people staged Dharna in Rafiabad area of Rohama, Tragpora, Dangiwacha and at many other places.
> The protesters were served with yellow rice Tehri and Sharbat soft drinks being organized by the local Mohalla committees.
> The Dharna was continue till last reports poured in.





> *Clashes again erupt as curfew relaxed in Srinagar*
> 
> Srinagar: At least 37 people, including 20 policemen, were injured as mobs pelted stones at the security forces in the Kashmir Valley after the Friday prayers and later when curfew was relaxed in Srinagar to enable the people observe the Shab-e-Meraj religious festival.
> 
> As the authorities announced that curfew throughout the city was relaxed with effect from 8 p.m. Friday till Saturday morning, mobs took to streets in the old city's Khwaja Bazaar area and started pelting stones on the security men.
> 
> Curfew lifted in Srinagar for Shab-e-Mehraj prayers
> 
> 'Two youth were injured in these clashes and one of them identified as Anis Ahmad was shifted to the Soura Medical Institute where doctors said the victim had sustained a rubber bullet injury in his leg', a senior police officer said here.
> 
> Union Home Secretary G.K. Pillai had announced in New Delhi that there would be no curfew anywhere in Kashmir from Friday evening for the Shab-e-Meraj festival.
> 
> The head cleric of Srinagar had Friday appealed to the state government to relax the curfew so that people could observe the Shab-e-Meraj religious festival.
> 
> Mufti Azaam Bashir-ud-Din also appealed to the people to perform their religious duties connected with Shab-e-Meraj (anniversary of the night-time ascension of Prophet to heaven from Jerusalem and marked by visits to graves of family and friends to pray for their souls) peacefully.
> 
> After the fresh eruption of violence in the city, police said the situation would be reviewed Saturday morning and a decision taken whether the curfew would be reimposed or not.
> 
> Earlier, youth also resorted to violence in the Hazratbal area of the city prompting security men to use batons and tear smoke shells to disperse the violent protesters.
> 
> 'Some youth resorted to stone pelting in the area after which the curfew was reimposed there,' the officer said.
> 
> Elsewhere in the Valley, 35 people were injured in violent incidents in north Kashmir's Baramulla and south Kashmir's Kakpora and Shopian towns.
> 
> One person suffered a rubber bullet injury in Baramulla town as a mob resorted to heavy stone pelting at the security men after the Friday prayers.
> 
> 'Suhail Ahmad sustained a rubber bullet injury as the security forces stepped in to quell violence and defiance of the restrictions imposed there. The injured youth was shifted to Srinagar for specialised treatment where doctors said he was out of danger. Eleven security men including an officer were injured in Baramulla,' an official said.
> 
> 'Another angry mob attacked the south Kashmir Kakpora police station and tried to torch it. A deputy commandant of the Central Reserve police force (CRPF), an officer of the state police are among the one dozen security men injured in the Kakpora incident where the mob was finally dispersed by the security men,' the officer said.
> 
> Miscreants also torched a hut of the forest department in Shopian town.
> 
> Chief Minister Omar Abdullah has convened an all-party meet here Monday to reach out to all the mainstream political parties to end the cycle of violence in the Valley.
> 
> However, Mehbooba Mufti, president of the opposition Peoples Democratic Party (PDP), told reporters here she would boycott the meeting as a protest against what she called the mishandling of the situation by the Omar Abdullah government.
> 
> The authorities issued fresh curfew passes to the local media persons to enable them discharge their professional duties here.
> 
> Because of the cancellation of all previously issued curfew passes, the local media persons could not discharge their professional duties and the publication of all the newspapers had been stopped by their managements for the last two days.
> 
> 35 injured in Kashmir violence
> 
> The army was requisitioned by the civil administration for assistance here Wednesday, a day after widespread violence in the city following the recovery of a teenager's body. The victim's relatives allege that he had been forcibly drowned by security forces during clashes.
> 
> Three more people, including a 25-year old woman, were killed in Tuesday's violence. The army carried out flag marches at many places in the city in the last two days here.
> 
> However, no flag march was carried out anywhere in Srinagar by the army on Friday.





> *Thousands defy curfew in Indian-held Kashmir
> *
> 
> 
> SRINAGAR: Thousands of residents defied a strict curfew in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) on Friday, prompting police to fire rubber bullets and lob tear gas shells, as fresh rebel attacks injured two policemen, officials said.
> 
> In Baramulla, over 4,000 residents flouted a curfew, prompting police to fire rubber bullets, release teargas and swing batons, officers said, adding that nine policemen and 11 protesters were injured in the ensuing clashes.
> 
> Authorities arrested 60 suspected separatist activists during overnight raids by police and paramilitary soldiers.
> 
> At least 30 activists who had participated in recent street demonstrations were arrested in Anantnag, a police officer said on condition of anonymity.
> 
> He said at least 30 others were arrested in Srinagar and other towns.
> 
> Police and protesters also clashed in southern Kakpora town after hundreds of villagers defied the curfew and were blocked by police from marching on the main road, police said, adding that 12 policemen and eight protesters were injured.
> 
> The clashes came even as Indian security forces widened a curfew in IHK on Friday to contain violent protests over the killing of civilians.
> 
> We have widened the curfew to ensure a violence-free Friday, a police officer, who declined to be named, told AFP.
> 
> Five more towns were placed under fresh curfew. Violent flashpoints such as Sopore, Srinagar and Anantnag remain restricted.
> 
> In Sopore, suspected militants launched three gun-and-grenade attacks on security forces on Friday that left a policeman and a paramilitary trooper injured, a police spokesman said. afp



Kashmiris are in no mood to relent!

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## civfanatic

EjazR said:


> *@civfanatic*
> You agree that Pakistani based militants have killed of JKLF activists and then you don't agree that Mirwaiz Umar Farooq father was killed by militants? And this is what the Hurriyat (M) activists say andArif Jamal also noted in his book *Shadow War*. His father was pro-dialouge and was talking to GoI so him dyingwas a loss for the GoI. Samething happened with Sajjad Lone's father.
> The point is that any pro-independance or a sepratists who starts a dialouge with GoI is targetted. I can give you a long list for that.
> 
> The thing is that with HR violations everyone is united, even pro-Indian Kashmiris and the Indian civil society.
> 
> And I'm not sure if you know but the author usually holds an anti-government stance in most of his articles and in his intial articleswas also calling for protests against the encounter killings. IF you read the article he is not praising the government for anything.
> 
> Geelani is popular? He got booted out in the recent elections of hisown organisation Jamaat-Islami.
> *http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/53403-geelani-suspended-jamaat-islami-jammu-kashmir.html*
> 
> Many Pakistanis don't realise that Geelani is as popular in Kashmir as the religious parties are in Pakistan i.e. not much but they have small core of dedicated people.



I told you if mirwaiz farooq was killed by millitants there is no way his supporters would have been in forrefront of anti india struggle . His being pro dialouge does not change that fact . Also the party that is procastinatinating most in solving J&K is GOI and any body who might be pro dialouge is more of threat to India than pakistan esp if he has mass following .

Geelani bieng thrown out of Jamaat-i-islami is internal politics of Jamaat. He was thrown out becuase jamaat didn't like his hardline stance on kashmir . The story goes like this in early 90s jamaat came heavily into armed struggle through HM at that time Geelani was ameer-i-jamaat . But local level workers of Jamaat were elimnated by counterinsurgents (Ikhwanis ) of Kuka paray ...Who was under Indian payrolls . So after decline in millitancy JI wanted to distance itself from armed struggle but Geelani couldn't take that step as he thought that it would be wrong to distance JI from rmed struggle having backed it earlier .Afterwards he wrote a book critcizing Ji for abandoning armed struggle and on this he was removed from JI. 

I can't comment upon religous parties of pakistan but in kashmir Geelani sahab represents our struggle against Indian occupation and infact he is the most popular leader in kashmir .


----------



## Awesome

vsdoc said:


> Some of the guys are actually pretty good.
> 
> Its obvious that this is done professionally if you notice their technique. Ask 9 out of 10 guys here to throw a stone at a stray dog in anger. See how accurate their throw will be in both line or length. Also check out the technique of release, and then ask them to chuck not one, but 20 stones, 50 stones, 100 stones. See how many of their shoulders will be able to take it.
> 
> Most of these pro pelters use the roundarm bowling action. Which gives me an idea. Why not get these guys into fast bowling academies? Am sure we could actually finally unearth some good raw bowling talent from amongst these youngsters. And given a choice between chucking stones versus a shot at the Indian cricket team, am sure we all know what they would opt for.
> 
> Though there is always the chance of stone pelting on the rebound by the rejects ......
> 
> Cheers, Doc


bwahahahaha... Seriously? Indians are now going to allege, stone pelting training camps in Pakistan? 

Maybe they've been pelting Indian security forces so long that they've gotten good at it! It's all about the numbers which are adding up against India!


----------



## javaman

Areesh said:


> Just telling you there enough dombs who repeat this BS time and time again when they don't have anything else to post. Like
> 
> "We have Kashmir, it is ours we want give it to anyone. It is our state. It belongs to us. It is our land and more BS like this."
> 
> Some goes to even beyond it and start posting smilies like  when they are frustrated about something and don't how to reply.
> 
> You are also doing the same.



well lady question is not of replying,wat we can do if u dont want to understand one thing.it's upto u to understand that it is an integral part of india.rest depends on ur quick learning.


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## GoogleIndia

i don't know what the Pakistani media publish myth about Indian kashmir in pak,we indian really don't care it. may be their is some conflict in kashmir due to pakistan but we will solve it soon.

For those Pak member who who always blame indian govt. for kashmir matter

*" look at yourself,Indian kashmir is much develop than pak kashmir so stop blaming on us"*

other wise still we are able to repeat the 1971 and this time P O K.


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## javaman

ice_man said:


> btw i have a question how much for a stone do these guys get paid??? and does the "SIZE MATTER"??? does the target matter??? where is BARKHA DUTT WITH THIS IMPORTANT RESEARCH???



she is taking coaching frm zaid hamid.,dekhtey z.hamid ko kitna aata hai


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## Fireurimagination

It will die down in a day or two, till then it's just more misery and curb on movement etc for ordinary law abiding Kashmiris because of these useless people

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## javaman

Asim Aquil said:


> bwahahahaha... Seriously? Indians are now going to allege, stone pelting training camps in Pakistan?
> 
> Maybe they've been pelting Indian security forces so long that they've gotten good at it! It's all about the numbers which are adding up against India!



army is there,now it's time to go in their holes


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## Awesome

> Islamabad facing shortage of essential commodities Lastupdate:- Sat, 10 Jul 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com
> 
> Islamabad, July 9: Curfew in this south Kashmir town continued for the 11th straight day today with people complaining about they facing acute shortage of essential commodities.
> Ahead of the Friday prayers police and paramilitary CRPF men were deployed in strength in every lane and by lanes of the town and congregational prayers were not allowed in main mosques of the town including Jamia Masjid Hanfia, Jamia Masjid Ahlihadith and Rehat-Ded Masjid. Curfew in the town was imposed on June, 29 following the killing of three teenagers allegedly by the police. People here are facing acute shortage of essential supplies like rice, flour and milk, Baby food and life saving drugs are also running short, said a chemist Asif Ahmad.
> Curfew like restrictions also prevailed in the adjoining areas of Bijbehra, Sangam Mattan and Dialgam while as reports of protests sporadic protests were received from Achabal, Dooru, Kokernag and Verinag.
> Meanwhile, police has launched a massive crack down against the youth and have arrested more than 30 youth in nocturnal raids in Islamabad town.
> Mirwaiz South Kashmir, Qazi Yasir who was arrested yesterday evening by the police has been booked under PSA and shifted to Jammu.
> Besides, his younger brother, Qazi Umair, 20, who was arrested on
> Wednesday has also been shifted to Central jail.





> Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - Friday prayers disallowed in various Bla mosques
> 
> People defy curfew, demos trigger clashes
> 
> Ishfaq Tantry
> Srinagar, July 09:
> Hundreds of people at civil lines in North Kashmirs Baramulla defied curfew and took put a protest demonstration immediately after congregational Friday prayers.
> Eyewitnesses told Rising Kashmir that a large number of people gathered at Khawaja Bagh High School premises to offer prayers. They said the worshippers later took out a huge procession of thousands towards Baramulla-Srinagar Highway.
> The protesters raised pro-Kashmir and anti-India slogans while youth shouted Blood fro Blood and Go India Go slogans. Later the protesters dispersed peacefully.
> From Eidgah Kadeem where thousands offered congregational prayers, a huge demonstration was taken out towards Town Square where the protesters staged a sit-in on the Cement Bridge.
> Troops deployed in strength, however, used bamboo batons and tear gas shells to disperse the demonstrators only to be retaliated with stones and rocks.
> Tear gas shelling and stone pelting continued till last reports came.
> Earlier people were barred to offer Friday prayers in various Grand masjids of Sopore and Baramulla.
> Prayers were not allowed to held at grand masjid of Baramulla, Bait-ul-Mukaram, Masjid-e-Rashaadthe centre of Tabligi Jamat in the entire North Kashmir and Jamia Qadeem Masjid at old town Baramulla.
> Locals said that they were forced to offer Friday prayers in the small masjids in interior localities.
> In Sopore town, authorities barred worshippers to pray at
> Jamai Jadeed Masjid at the banks of river Jhelum. Reports of similar coercion also came from Kokernaag, Islamabad, Qazigund, Kulgam, Pulwama and Shopian where prayers were not allowed at grand masjids.



Resorting to such underhanded tactics would not quell the resistance.


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## Dr.Evil

There is nothing Underhanded in this - Saving lives and proprety of state and citizens is the primary concern of the govt. 

Paid separatists are responsible for all the hardships which people are facing.

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## JonAsad

Well its not new.. we all know this..
What israel is doing in palestine is exactly what
india is doing in kashmir...

Guess what.. both aggressors are good friends.


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## nForce

*Slogan of Indian Armed Forces stationed in Kashmir​*

*Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations
It's our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."


- Indian Armed Forces *

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## Dr.Evil

What is your response to the death of civilians in FATA , SWAT and all the balochistan.

PAF bombs the hell out of its people and 100's are killed.

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## javaman

jonasad said:


> Well its not new.. we all know this..
> What israel is doing in palestine is exactly what
> india is doing in kashmir...
> 
> Guess what.. both aggressors are good friends.


----------



## owcc

jonasad said:


> Well its not new.. we all know this..
> What israel is doing in palestine is exactly what
> india is doing in kashmir...
> 
> Guess what.. both aggressors are good friends.



Atleast India sorts out her problems herself unlike your country allowing US drones to attack your own citizens


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## Dr.Evil

Pakistani's seem to be more interested in commenting on Kashmir curfew than on the deadly sucide attacks in Mohamand.

This is just a curfew and it will be eased as soon as the atmosphere cools down and we take care of the paid separatists and their henchmen.

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## javaman

nForce said:


> *Slogan of Indian Armed Forces stationed in Kashmir​*
> 
> *Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations
> It's our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
> 
> 
> - Indian Armed Forces *



we need some alterations.
*Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations and those who are against the national integrity
It's our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."


- Indian Armed Forces *


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## Ammyy

jonasad said:


> Well its not new.. we all know this..
> What israel is doing in palestine is exactly what
> india is doing in kashmir...
> 
> Guess what.. both aggressors are good friends.



Good going Indian Army 

Long live India - Israel friendship


----------



## RedKnight

I am sorry to say but I think India too has found the paining nerve of Pakistan, which is dividing Pakistan based on sects and using forces such as TTP to organize attacks on public and religious places.
It will help India in diverting the resources which Pakistan puts into Kashmiri movement and also giving tit-for-tat replies for any problems caused in India which are suspected on Pakistan.

Hope for the peace to prevail everywhere.


----------



## javaman

RedKnight said:


> I am sorry to say but I think India too has found the paining nerve of Pakistan, which is dividing Pakistan based on sects and using forces such as TTP to organize attacks on public and religious places.
> It will help India in diverting the resources which Pakistan puts into Kashmiri movement and also giving tit-for-tat replies for any problems caused in India which are suspected on Pakistan.
> 
> Hope for the peace to prevail everywhere.



india is working on two front strategy,but dont know how


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## JonAsad

Dr.Evil said:


> What is your response to the death of civilians in FATA , SWAT and all the balochistan.
> 
> PAF bombs the hell out of its people and 100's are killed.



First go to UN and declare FATA and SWAT a disputed area, otherwise dont poke your nose in it.
and keep that finger in ur mouth.


----------



## JonAsad

owcc said:


> Atleast India sorts out her problems herself unlike your country allowing US drones to attack your own citizens



Both situations are not comparable.. Get a life


----------



## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> The winds of change are blowing. You guys may be hard liners stuck in your old ways, but I think the current beating the Indian Security forces got, *while trying to stop Anti-India protests*, must've pierced the hearts and minds of at least a few of the Indians on the sub-continent that definitely no matter how many times they'd say it to themselves - all is not well in Kashmir.



Asim

The winds of change are actually in the other direction. In a place, where army used to be active irrespective of the situation, we now have army playing a backup role even after the incidents of last couple of weeks and most of the enforcement is thru Police. The only thing this tells me is that Kashmir is fast becoming like any other border state of India with dying insurgency . Exactly similar trends were visible in the dying days of Operation Khalistan of ISI in Punjab.. I give this Kashmiri stuggle nonsense another 3-5 years max. May be both of us will be on this forum even then to discuss this again.

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## Dr.Evil

jonasad said:


> First go to UN and declare FATA and SWAT a disputed area, otherwise dont poke your nose in it.
> and keep that finger in ur mouth.



Great Logic dude - the so called undisputed territory can be bombed by PAF and kill its citizens.

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## JonAsad

DRDO said:


> Good going Indian Army
> 
> Long live India - Israel friendship



That shows you guys are not much different from Hitler..

Yeah he used to rejoice his killings of Jews.


----------



## karan.1970

ice_man said:


> let's make one thing clear to all indians:
> 
> NAXALITES is india's internal problem!!
> 
> KASHMIR is DISPUTED TERRITORY & IS NOT & WILL NOT EVER BE INDIA's problem alone!!



Please restrict yourself to sermonizing Pakistanis (if you have to sermonize). You really have no standing to make any thing clear to anyone on Kashmir. The Indian POV

NAXALITES is India's internal problem!! 

KASHMIR is India's internal problem that pakistan has been trying to leverage for last 2 decades..


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## Ammyy

jonasad said:


> That shows you guys are not much different from Hitler..
> 
> Yeah he used to rejoice his killings of Jews.



We are not send terrorist to others country to kill innocent people and call them freedom fighter 

And whole world know about that


----------



## Ammyy

karan.1970 said:


> Please restrict yourself to sermonizing Pakistanis (if you have to sermonize). You really have no standing to make any thing clear to anyone on Kashmir. The Indian POV
> 
> NAXALITES is India's internal problem!!
> 
> KASHMIR is India's internal problem that pakistan has been trying to leverage for last 2 decades..



Dude why you care about their crying ...they r crying from last 60 years ... and whats outcome of this ................... *a big 0* 

So just chill


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## EjazR

These are older reports. Curfew was relaxed in most areas for Friday prayers and Shab-e-Meraj. Here is an ndtv video report from Hazratbal andyou can see people gatherred there.


Kashmir valley's night of peace


Ofcourse there are probably still restrictions for inter-town travel.


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## PlanetWarrior

Snide remarks aside. It is wrong to limit or ban protests in Kashmir. I am in agreement that if you ban peaceful protests then the protestor will need to vent, usually in a violent manner. India is the largest democracy in the world and Kashmir is a state of India. Kashmiris like any other Indian should be permitted to protest. It is only through peaceful protests that the government can learn what exactly it is that the people want. Tear gassing and shooting at the stone throwers will not make the problem go away. Finding out what exactly it is that Kashmiris want and tackling the core issues for once and for all is the only solution

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## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> India is doing everything to prove it's rule is tyrannical. Now shutting down the free-press!
> 
> Ridiculous! This is so going to snowball! All signs that the Indian back is almost broken on Kashmir





Like this


----------



## JonAsad

Dr.Evil said:


> Great Logic dude - the so called undisputed territory can be bombed by PAF and kill its citizens.



So killing the innocent civilians for land is justified then? 

i am amused by your knowledge regarding operation in FATA SWAT,
we are fighting talibans there and collateral damage is bound to happen.

on contrary indian army and police is only killing innocent kashmiri protesters.

Only fools living in their heaven will find them comparable.
and if you are hell bound to compare your situation with sm one, like i said b4 compare it with Israeli illegal occupation of Palestinian lands.
*** line deleted by me ***


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## JonAsad

DRDO said:


> We are not send terrorist to others country to kill innocent people and call them freedom fighter
> 
> And whole world know about that



Seems like you have a lot of innocent people in kashmir to kill and satisfy the evil in you.. no need to send sm on any where.

"Lets play and kill in our own disputed backyard-"


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## javaman

jonasad said:


> Seems like you have a lot of innocent people in kashmir to kill and satisfy the evil in you.. no need to send sm on any where.
> 
> "Lets play and kill in our own disputed backyard-"



u have full right to protest,india is democratic


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## Ammyy

jonasad said:


> Seems like you have a lot of innocent people in kashmir to kill and satisfy the evil in you.. no need to send sm on any where.
> 
> "Lets play in our own disputed backyard-"



Well done Indian Army kill all those who support terrorism and terrorist and those paid stone pelters who are paid why terrorists.....


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## RedKnight

Force is required to quell the protestor otherwise they will raise mayhem, last year China also killed like 160 people in Urumqi city of Xianjing district. I think they were also muslims seeking independence from China.

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## majesticpankaj

jonasad said:


> Seems like you have a lot of innocent people in kashmir to kill and satisfy the evil in you.. no need to send sm on any where.
> 
> "Lets play and kill in our own disputed backyard-"


don't u think it is time that pakistan should attack india and give justice to kashmiris?? free them from the indian atrocities. u people even talk to teach a lesson to israeli . this is happening in front of the world. so as a moral police of the world pls stop talking and teach a lesson to both of them. all the best.


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## javaman

RedKnight said:


> Force is required to quell the protestor otherwise they will raise mayhem, last year China also killed like 160 people in Urumqi city of Xianjing district. I think they were also muslims seeking independence from China.



all weather blind partnership


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## gowthamraj

It's all because let a branch of isi's flops in recent year to spread violation and shrinking number of terrorsists make them, to do some thing to destabl kashmir. But all time they get from kashmir is


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## JonAsad

DRDO said:


> Well done Indian Army kill all those who support terrorism and terrorist and those paid stone pelters who are paid why terrorists.....



Did you watch the video?
i dont find any sense coming out fo your mouth..


----------



## dabong1

RedKnight said:


> Force is required to quell the protestor otherwise they will raise mayhem, last year China also killed like 160 people in Urumqi city of Xianjing district.



And force was has been required in india to quell riots also but its not linked to a long standing struggle where two countries have gone to war and the UN is involved.
Can you tell us how many of the 160 dead where muslims?




RedKnight said:


> I think they were also muslims seeking independence from China.



So you agree with the concept of the ummah and that all muslims should help each other.....even the muslim indians?


----------



## JonAsad

majesticpankaj said:


> don't u think it is time that pakistan should attack india and give justice to kashmiris?? free them from the indian atrocities. u people even talk to teach a lesson to israeli . this is happening in front of the world. so as a moral police of the world pls stop talking and teach a lesson to both of them. all the best.



Few more ppl like you and surely the world will be a happy place to live..

as if me speaking against indian state sponsered violence in kashmir is not enough now you are suggesting us to attack india.


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## JonAsad

javaman said:


> u have full right to protest,india is democratic



Kashmiri's have the same right to protest aswell, where is the democracy now?

i would love to see the same democracy you brag about every where implemented in kashmir aswell..


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## Awesome

Indian Army has been implicated in rapes, massacres and arson in Kashmir. Hence they are being targeted by Kashmiris and getting a beating of their lifetime by normal citizens.


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## majesticpankaj

jonasad said:


> Few more ppl like you and surely the world will be a happy place to live..
> 
> as if me speaking against indian state sponsered violence in kashmir is not enough now you are suggesting us to attack india.


only sympathy does not work. do something concrete for them. by the way that was a suggestion only.


----------



## Awesome

*Media gag makes India-controlled Kashmir newspaperless*

by Peerzada Arshad Hamid

SRINAGAR, India-controlled Kashmir, July 9 (Xinhua) -- F*or the second consecutive day Friday newspapers in India-controlled Kashmir could not hit stands following the gag on media persons here.
*
The journalists and photographers were prevented from covering incidents and barred from reaching offices.

Around 60 newspapers published from Srinagar city, the summer capital of India-controlled, were unable to publish their daily issues.

The restrictions have also affected the work of correspondents associated with New Delhi-based media houses and international media agencies.

"*This is worst sort of restriction that I have seen in the past twenty years. They cancelled the curfew passes issued to us. In past also they have imposed similar restrictions but we were allowed to discharge the professional duties in limited manner. Today they totally forced us to stay indoors," said Farooq Khan, President Kashmir Press Photographers Association.*

Khan said every time government orders a restriction, they have to face the wrath at the hands of police or paramilitary troopers.

Authorities have restricted the movement of journalists in the region in wake of indefinite curfew imposed in the Srinagar on Wednesday, following killing of four people including a women in police and paramilitary action.

Thousands of policemen and India's paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) personnel in riot gear have been deployed across the Srinagar city to enforce strict restrictions. These men have laid barricades and concertina on the roads and streets to restrict movement of people. The residents are confined to houses and streets and roads wore a deserted look.

The Indian army which was requisitioned Wednesday by local government to help maintain law and order stage flag march across city's roads intermittently.


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## JonAsad

majesticpankaj said:


> only sympathy does not work. do something concrete for them. by the way that was a suggestion only.



Like we are doing nothing.... 
The more concrete we'll get..
The more desperately you'll run to UN and Uncle Sam.


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## majesticpankaj

jonasad said:


> Like we are doing nothing....
> The more concrete we'll get..
> The more desperately you'll run to UN and Uncle Sam.


why are you concern if we go to US and UN. that will internationalise the issue and would definitely benefit you. so pls do the best you can do for the people of kashmir. all the best.


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## javaman

jonasad said:


> Kashmiri's have the same right to protest aswell, where is the democracy now?
> 
> i would love to see the same democracy you brag about every where implemented in kashmir aswell..



india is democratic,thats y they can protest anotherwise there would have been tanks rolling on them


----------



## Spring Onion

The Invader Indians have also suspended fuel supply from Jammu to Kashmir Valley presenting lies as pretext.

These bharti barbarians are doing everything to isolate Held Kashmir


----------



## Awesome

javaman said:


> india is democratic,thats y they can protest anotherwise there would have been tanks rolling on them


Then the Kashmiris would seriously kick some Indian butt - India cannot dare do that any more.


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## javaman

Jana said:


> The Invader Indians have also suspended fuel supply from Jammu to Kashmir Valley presenting lies as pretext.
> 
> These bharti barbarians are doing everything to isolate Held Kashmir



ya its our state,y u bothered.do make ur land peaceful b4 it


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## majesticpankaj

Asim Aquil said:


> Then the Kashmiris would seriously kick some Indian butt - India cannot dare do that any more.


lets wait and watch.


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## javaman

Asim Aquil said:


> Then the Kashmiris would seriously kick some Indian butt - India cannot dare do that any more.



dont tell army wat to do or not


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## Spring Onion

javaman said:


> ya its our state,y u bothered.do make ur land peaceful b4 it




Its not your state you stater terrorists.


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## Awesome

This guy certain tore a new one for the lies and BS that Chidumbaram, Omar Abdullah, Rahul Gandhi, MMS and a few others are feeding the Indian masses and hiding the true extents of this current riot.

*Omar & Rahul get stoned | Rahul Gandhi | Manmohan Singh | Indian Express*

Perhaps 15 to 20 Kashmiris have been killed during demonstrations in the Valley this summer, and for the first time since 1993 the army has been asked to assist the civil administration. Plainly, the situation in Jammu and Kashmir has worsened since the days when indigenous militancy had petered out and the Valleys Muslims felt sad that A B Vajpayee was no longer prime minister. And while most commentators have been busy blaming Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, it is obvious that the UPA culprits who let Kashmir slip out of hand are Omars buddy Rahul Gandhi and his chauffeur (as a recent column in The Economist termed him), Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

The Kashmir issue as a matter of fact has been directly dealt with by prime ministers since Partition and Independence. It is true that J L Nehru got us into the international mess by taking the Pakistani tribal invasion to the United Nations in 1948, but it is also true that Kashmir was seen differently than the rest of Indias states by the rest of the world (you can blame British skulduggery or Sheikh Abdullahs Switzerland-type ambitions or the Cold War team-ups, but there it is: Kashmir was always seen as disputed, in the way that no one in the world thinks of Tibet as a natural part of China). It is also true that Nehrus home minister (the best one weve ever had, by far) Sardar Patel was not keen on retaining the Valley. Even recent prime ministers like P V Narasimha Rao and Vajpayee laid down a Kashmir policy, and to say that so far as azaadi is concerned the skys the limit is to make a political statement. Kashmir, as anyone who has had a serious look into the issue knows, is a political problem, not a military one; and it needs a political solution.

Whenever Manmohan Singh visits Kashmir, he mumbles something stale and uninspiring. You would think that this genius economist would have, after six years on the job, learned a thing or two about politics. The only thing it seems he has learned is how to keep his mouth shut and keep his boss, Congress chief Sonia Gandhi, happy. He has not learned that politics is a dynamic process; that what works today may not have worked in 1953; that politics involves a lot of talking almost all the time about everything to everyone  and then taking your own decision; that politics cannot be substituted by an economic package or a military deployment; that no one can predict in whose favour time will work; and that in a democracy, you can only solve problems through politics. Manmohan Singh behaves ignorant of all this.

Instead, hes dumped the problem on Union home minister P Chidambaram who has proved that accountants posing as verbose intellectuals are best left in ministries like finance or commerce. Chidambarams pompous demeanour has infected even his bureaucrats, who tell the media that Omar Abdullah has been told to be resolute and bring trouble-makers to justice, and bring the Valley under control. Obviously Chidambaram has gotten such a hammering from the Maoists that he doesnt know where to look, and it is a measure of how things have gotten out of hand that today he sees the Kashmir problem as the soft one. He and his PM have been ambushed. All they can do is lay the blame for stone-throwing in Kashmir on the Lashkar-e-Toiba (left to the LeT it would be lobbing grenades, not stones). And talk of deploying the army, even if it is just a rhetorical measure to help cool down tempers on the street, is not something that will help you find the UN Security Council seat that you keep begging every foreign visitor for.

The worst is the home ministry telling Omar Abdullah what to do. Even in the Hindi heartland, the states do not like being told by the Centre what to do. It always looks bad, and it would seem to have knocked the bottom out of his government. He will not recover, unless something dramatic happens (and even if something dramatic does occur, it is doubtful that he will be involved or be the beneficiary). Omar probably shouldnt have been in the seat of government in the first place, and many commentators are now pointing out how his father Farooq Abdullah had been projected during the last elections as the National Conferences chief ministerial candidate. Many of these same people have always derided Farooq as an attention-deficit playboy, though he has proven to be one of the shrewdest politicians in India (disclosure: this columnist has written a biography of Farooq Abdullah). These commentators now point out that Omar got the top job because of his drag-racing buddy, Rahul Gandhi, who once again wanted to project a youth icon instead of concentrating on good governance.

For those voters who think that a 40-year-old still represents youth, Omars inability to keep control of public protests and to replace stone-throwing with dialogue should be an eye-opener to what kind of disastrous administrator and political leader Rahul Gandhi may turn out to be. It is true that Rahul has been touring the country to strengthen the Youth Congress and by extension his party organisation; it is true that he has increased membership and put up a good showing in UP in the last Lok Sabha elections; and the word from Bihar is that Rahul Gandhi may throw up a surprise or two in the coming assembly poll. However, it remains to be seen whether he can replicate the UP success in 2012, when the assembly elections take place, particularly given Mayawatis administrative and political work in the last one year. In Tamil Nadu his impact remains to be seen.

However, if Rahul can find time to quietly go abroad and celebrate his 40th birthday, then he can certainly find time to give a press conference and take a stance on long-standing policy issues. As The Economist put it, the question remains is what Mr Gandhi believes in. He perhaps thinks he is being clever by not staking out a position and alienating voters. All he is doing is reinforcing the perception that while our young politicians, like Omar, look good, they are incapable of delivering the goods.

*So what does this mean for Kashmir? Nothing, and that is saddening. Expect no initiatives while Manmohan Singh and the UPA remain in saddle. And expect that in the way that the Tibet riots shamed China just a month before the Beijing Olympics, the stone-throwing and retaliatory deaths will do the same for us before the Delhi Commonwealth Games three months from now.*


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## JonAsad

javaman said:


> india is democratic,thats y they can protest anotherwise there would have been tanks rolling on them



Killing them while protesting.. and rolling tanks on them...

tell me the difference between the two in the democratic sense that you have


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## ice_man

karan.1970 said:


> Please restrict yourself to sermonizing Pakistanis (if you have to sermonize). You really have no standing to make any thing clear to anyone on Kashmir. The Indian POV
> 
> NAXALITES is India's internal problem!!
> 
> KASHMIR is India's internal problem that pakistan has been trying to leverage for last 2 decades..




well repeat these lines to yourself when other "FREEDOM FIGHTERS" strike!! 

"kashmir is our internal problem"


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## majesticpankaj

jonasad said:


> Killing them while protesting.. and rolling tanks on them...
> 
> tell me the difference between the two in the democratic sense that you have


protest should also be democratic in nature not like pelting stones on forces. only curfew is imposed in kashmir not like marshal law which was imposed 3 times in the history of pakistan. keep it up


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## karan.1970

ice_man said:


> well repeat these lines to yourself when other "FREEDOM FIGHTERS" strike!!
> 
> "kashmir is our internal problem"



Dude.. look carefully where strikes are taking place and how frequently. I dont want to get into comparing the size of corpse piles, but before warning others about FF strikes, look inside your own *undisputed *provinces to begin with. 

Subconciously you are so used to these terror attacks, that 100 people dying in a twin bomb blast merits a mere 4 page discussion on this forum. And you then come here surmonizing Indians on Kashmir and asking them to wait for other FF strikes. with an rofl.

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## Lankan Ranger

*Curfew back in Srinagar; Army on standby*

Jammu and Kashmir Government will consider the option of withdrawing deployment of the army from the valley after the Martyrs' Day on July 13 and the situation as of now was well under control, state Chief Minister Omar Abdullah said on Saturday. "Even now the army has not been brought into the city. 

It is only in the periphery, that too it was deployed two days ago," he said in an interview.

Conceding that it was the most difficult decision for him to seek the assistance of Army from the Centre, the 40-year-old Chief Minister, the youngest in the country to occupy the post, said that it was one decision that he would not like to repeat in his term in the office.

Asked when his government would consider withdrawing the Army, which was called out on Tuesday night after escalation in violence in the valley, Abdullah said that it would be done when the government has that level of confidence.

"The situation is being monitored on a daily basis. We will consider that option after July 13 and take a decision," he said in a reference to the observance of Martyrs' Day which is commemorated in memory of those who died fighting the Dogra rule.

Abdullah ruled out quitting the post and also dismissed speculation that his father and Union Minister Farooq Abdullah would step into his shoes.

"A host of people would like me to quit but I am not contemplating such a decision," he said when asked if he had at any time thought of stepping down.

Asked about his father's arrival in the city in the midst of the current situation and reports that he would like to take over as chief minister, Abdullah said there was criticism when his father was not in Kashmir.

"And now that he is coming for his mother's death anniversary tomorrow, my detractors are speculating."

He declined to comment on suggestions that he and his father should swap places and also on reports questioning whether he enjoyed the support of his party.

Abdullah was at pains to point out that the army was deployed only near the airport on the first day and the second day and was no longer deployed anywhere.

The government has not formally cancelled the request for army's assistance but the option is still there.

"While we sought the help, we are firm that the army will not be in direct confrontation with protesters and therefore we asked them to conduct a flag march. That was the need of the hour," he said.

Asking political parties to stop playing "divisive" role, the Chief Minister said the decision of seeking army's help was taken after thorough consultations with coalition partners, cabinet ministers and authorities in a bid to prevent any further loss of innocent lives.

"I have always welcomed healthy criticism but I am averse to criticism which stinks of divisive politics. I do not wish to see trouble on streets but the situation on Tuesday was tense," he said replying to questions about criticism on the decision to call in the army.

"I have police force and paramilitary personnel who are over stretched because of the ongoing Amarnath Yatra. I cannot withdraw from my Counter Insurgency Grid because that will give chance to terrorists to enter the mainland in the Valley.

"Therefore, my government, after consulting with state and central leaders, decided to seek army's help for assisting in maintenance of law and order situation."

He went on to say "only the wearer knows where the shoe pinches".

The Chief Minister said that he had consulted Home Minister P Chidambaram and Defence Minister A K Antony about the situation and the deployment of the army.

Asked about the conversation intercepts of a few Hurriyat leaders indicating that they were engineering killings of innocents, the Chief Minister declined to comment. "At present I need peace for the state. These issues can be worked out later."

On the opposition PDP accusing his government of being inefficient in handling the situation, Abdullah said, "Well the facts and figures speak otherwise.

"There were disturbances and civilian causalities were more. The PDP rule came when New Delhi and Islamabad were getting close. Roads were opened, talks were held with Pakistan and Hurriyat. Guess (the then chief minister Mufti Sayeed) he had no complaints but still the causalities happened."

According to National Crime Records Buearu of the Union Home Ministry, in 2003, the year the People's Democratic Party-Congress alliance government took office, six people were killed in 47 incidents involving the use of force by police.

Thirteen civilians were killed in 2004 when the then Chief Minister Sayeed completed his first year in office. Besides this, police is recorded to have opened fire on 123 occasions.

In 2005, fatalities in police firing rose sharply to 50 and the state government withdrew BSF committed to counter-insurgency operations in Srinagar and replaced them with the CRPF in an effort to contain killings of civilians.

In 2006, the year Ghulam Nabi Azad took over as chief minister, Srinagar saw a series of protests against a prostitution racket in which politicians were implicated. But in 2007, eight civilians were killed in 47 instances of police firing.

Civilian deaths rose sharply in 2008  during the Amarnath agitation, and the state government reported 43 deaths and 317 injuries in 379 incidents involving use of force by police.

*Curfew reimposed
*
Curfew was reimposed in Maisuma locality Srinagar and Jammu and Kashmir's Anantnag and Pulwama towns on Saturday after stone-pelting mobs clashed with security forces, authorities said.

"Miscreants resorted to stone pelting in Maisuma and in Anantnag and Pulwama during curfew relaxation. Curfew was reimposed at these places," a senior police officer said. 

Markets remained closed and public buses did not ply in most parts of Srinagar city. However, people poured out of their homes to buy essential items and private transport plied on the roads. 

Curfew was relaxed Friday in the Kashmir Valley for an indefinite period to facilitate the celebration of the holy Muslim festival of Shab-e-Meraj (ascension of Prophet to heaven).

However, curfew was not lifted inSopore and Kakpora towns for the fourth day on Saturday.

Curfew back in Srinagar; Omar puts army on standby - Hindustan Times


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## indushek

Jana said:


> Its not your state you stater terrorists.





Not like TTP we are not, we don't blow up our own, we kill those under the garb of being local come across the border to start riots. I wonder everyone from the other side whenever it is the issue of Kashmir speak as if they are Angels from heaven.


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## indushek

dabong1 said:


> And force was has been required in india to quell riots also but its not linked to a long standing struggle where two countries have gone to war and the UN is involved.
> Can you tell us how many of the 160 dead where muslims?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you agree with the concept of the ummah and that all muslims should help each other.....even the muslim indians?




So according to you the Ummah concept applies to only Indian that too Kasmiri muslims only, the ones in Xinjiang are either problem of China or u would like to find out if they are Muslims or not. Hypocracy at its best personified. 

Let me tell how many crocodile tears u may shed nobody i say nobody has the balls to take Kashmir from us, thats the truth and that is why though u tried so many time u couldn't take it from us

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## JonAsad

majesticpankaj said:


> protest should also be democratic in nature not like pelting stones on forces. only curfew is imposed in kashmir not like marshal law which was imposed 3 times in the history of pakistan. keep it up



Why dont you shoot ppl in delhi, bihar, jharkand, uttar pradesh, tamil nadu, orrisa, andhra pradesh, rajasthan when they are protesting?

There were violence too during these protests on july 5, 2010

Strike called by opposition to protest fuel price hike hits India&#8217;s transport, businesses

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/06/world/asia/06india.html

Democracy at its best, isn't it? Losers


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## Ammyy

jonasad said:


> Why dont you shoot ppl in delhi, bihar, jharkand, uttar pradesh, tamil nadu, orrisa, andhra pradesh, rajasthan when they are protesting?
> 
> There were violence too during these protests on july 5, 2010
> 
> Strike called by opposition to protest fuel price hike hits Indias transport, businesses
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/06/world/asia/06india.html
> 
> Democracy at its best, isn't it? Losers



Because they are not paid by terrorist groups to protest and to throw stones on security groups 

Because of Paksitans involvement they have to suffer


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## JonAsad

DRDO said:


> Because they are not paid by terrorist groups to protest and to throw stones on security groups
> 
> Because of Paksitans involvement they have to suffer



Provide me link from where you have read that those protesters were paid by Pakistan to throw stones at security groups,
or else shut up.


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## Ammyy

jonasad said:


> Provide me link from where you have read that those protesters were paid by Pakistan to throw stones at security groups,
> or else shut up.



Well if you can even not accept those dog kasab as a proof then how can you accept Indian link for that ... 

well lets read that 
Stone pelting becomes lucrative business in Kashmir valley - dnaindia.com

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## JonAsad

DRDO said:


> Well if you can even not accept those dog kasab as a proof then how can you accept Indian link for that ...
> 
> well lets read that
> Stone pelting becomes lucrative business in Kashmir valley - dnaindia.com



Now you gona go to the Dossiers you provided us as a proof  how many times have you provided us with a revised version? Its a pitty in it self.

Now Lets read this shall we
BBC News - 'Fake killings' return to Kashmir

and btw the source in neutral.. care to bring any neutral source to back up your claims?


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## Ammyy

jonasad said:


> Now you gona go to the Dossiers you were providing us as a proof  how many times have you provided us with a revised version? Its a pitty in it self.
> 
> Now Lets read this shall we
> BBC News - 'Fake killings' return to Kashmir




well if you believe bbc is neutral source so look at these reports also 
DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Surviving-gunmans-identity-established-as-Pakistani-ss

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Pakistan 'role in Mumbai attacks'

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/30/world/asia/30mumbai.html

Pakistani Involvement in the Mumbai Attacks - TIME


----------



## ice_man

DRDO said:


> Well if you can even not accept those dog kasab as a proof then how can you accept Indian link for that ...
> 
> well lets read that
> Stone pelting becomes lucrative business in Kashmir valley - dnaindia.com



like i said before i am ready to accept ANY INDIAN source if you willing to ACCEPT PAKISTANI SOURCES? ARE YOU WILLING TO ACCEPT OUR SOURCES SUCH AS the news,express & PTV & so on so forth??? 

let's even out the playing field shall we?

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## JonAsad

DRDO said:


> well if you believe bbc is neutral source so look at these reports also
> DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Surviving-gunmans-identity-established-as-Pakistani-ss
> 
> BBC NEWS | South Asia | Pakistan 'role in Mumbai attacks'
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/30/world/asia/30mumbai.html
> 
> Pakistani Involvement in the Mumbai Attacks - TIME



wtfh this mumbai attack has to do here?
are you out of explainations of what are you doing in kashmir?

you want to make mumbai attacks a scapegoat?

Stay on topic silly


----------



## Ammyy

jonasad said:


> wtf is this mumbai attack has to do here?
> are you out of explainations of what are you doing in kashmir?
> 
> Stay on topic silly



i know .......................how can you accept reality 

You show me BBC is neutral source so i am just show you your reality ..what bbc think about you


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## uncleponty

DRDO said:


> Well done Indian Army kill all those who support terrorism and terrorist and those paid stone pelters who are paid why terrorists.....



Stone Pelting to Indian Army and J&K Police is now a business in the valley of Kashmir and news says that they are being paid as much as Rs. 2 to 4 Lack per protest by Stone Pelting


----------



## JonAsad

DRDO said:


> i know .......................how can you accept reality
> 
> You show me BBC is neutral source so i am just show you your reality ..what bbc think about you



Alright.. So now why not post any neutral source claiming Pakistani involvement in recent Kashmiri protests?


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## Ammyy

jonasad said:


> Alright.. So now why not post any neutral source claiming Pakistani involvement in recent Kashmiri protests?



Because kashmir is internal matter of India and they cant argue about kashmir without asking from India


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## JonAsad

uncleponty said:


> Stone Pelting to Indian Army and J&K Police is now a business in the valley of Kashmir and news says that they are being paid as much as Rs. 2 to 4 Lack per protest by Stone Pelting



and your source is ToI or dnaindia.com ?


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## JonAsad

DRDO said:


> Because kashmir is internal matter of India and they cant argue about kashmir without asking from India



i can play this forever dude,
where in the world it is declared as internal matter of India?

Sources plz?

Last time i checked its still a disputed territory.
Do you want my neutral sources for this?


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## GoogleIndia

nForce said:


> *Slogan of Indian Armed Forces stationed in Kashmir​*
> 
> *Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations
> It's our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
> 
> 
> - Indian Armed Forces *



wow....now implement it...and please i am requesting to armed forces..don't care about border...bcoz terrorist from beyond the LOC also want to meet god....


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## ice_man

karan.1970 said:


> Dude.. look carefully where strikes are taking place and how frequently. I dont want to get into comparing the size of corpse piles, but before warning others about FF strikes, look inside your own *undisputed *provinces to begin with.
> 
> Subconciously you are so used to these terror attacks, that 100 people dying in a twin bomb blast merits a mere 4 page discussion on this forum. And you then come here surmonizing Indians on Kashmir and asking them to wait for other FF strikes. with an rofl.



boy before you bring up undisputed territory strikes let's not bring up naxalities here shall we??? now tell me who is the Freedom Fighter??? let's stick to kashmir because if you point fingers in our direction currently we can make you point right back!! 

besides in india 99&#37; of the population doesn't really care about kashmiris to them kashmir is an EGO issue 

^^ google india is a typical example of the typical TOI & NDTV brainwashed child! (unfortunately the way he is going haywire he won't last on this forum for long)!!


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## afriend

ice_man said:


> well repeat these lines to yourself when other "FREEDOM FIGHTERS" strike!!
> 
> "kashmir is our internal problem"




Hmm.. whatever man..!! How long can we live in this hate. I am exposed to the views from pakistan and bangaladesh which have brought a turn around in my views about these countries... What has this forum done to you brother.. other than expressing the hate you show..!!!


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## rastor

ice_man said:


> besides in india 99&#37; of the population doesn't really care about kashmiris to them kashmir is an EGO issue



many Indians can't point to kashmir on a map. ...... others who can,me included, couldn't know less about Kashmir & its prepetual problems - all the more so becasue kashmiris don't like India......the establishment here sees it as some sort of "strategic" piece of territory. And they are not going to give it up either due to stone-throwing teenagers or for that matter pakistani rangers sneaking into mountain heights.


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## Awesome

Despite the Indian state's magnanimous efforts and previously falsely reporting that the march was "foiled" with curfews, AFP is reporting that the march did happen!

*AFP: Thousands march after curfew lifted in Indian Kashmir*

SRINAGAR, India  Thousands of protesters shouting *"We want freedom" and "Blood for blood"* marched through the tense streets of Muslim-majority Indian Kashmir on Saturday after authorities lifted a curfew.

*Leading separatist Mirwaiz Umar Farooq* led the procession of thousands of Kashmiris through the streets of downtown Srinagar, urban hub of a two-decade insurgency against New Delhi's rule that has claimed thousands of lives.

The lockdown was lifted in Srinagar late Friday and other parts of Indian Kashmir to enable people to celebrate a major Muslim festival.

*Indian police and paramilitary forces have been struggling to control a wave of protests in the Kashmir valley after being accused of killing 15 civilians -- many of them teenagers -- in less than a month.*

"We condemn innocent killings," Farooq chanted through a loudspeaker* as residents shouted back in unison*, "*Farooq, we are with you".*

The curfew had been imposed on Srinagar last Tuesday in a bid to contain protests after three people were killed in security force firing in 12 hours.

While Farooq's march remained peaceful, protesters clashed with police in several other parts of Srinagar, prompting authorities to reimpose a curfew in one district.

A curfew was also clamped back on southern Pulwama and Anantnag districts after fresh protests erupted while one remained in force in southern Kakpora and northern Sopore town.

Hindu-majority India and Muslim-majority Pakistan each hold Kashmir in part but claim it in full.

The nuclear-armed nations have fought two of their three wars over the Himalayan region since the subcontinent's partition in 1947.


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## Ammyy

*And source is * 

blog

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## Awesome

There is an Islamabad march planned - it is being disrupted by the Indian government but the Kashmiris are determined to march to Islamabad (district).

This is going to get bigger and bigger. I hope Yasin Malik is freed. India is jailing all the big shot activists but I think this time all major parties need to remain united in their struggle for freedom.

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## Awesome

DRDO said:


> *And source is *
> 
> blog


AFP is a blog?

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## Patriot

God Bless Kashmirs - Pakistanis are with Kashmirs.We will provide full moral support to our Kashmiri brothers against the tyrannical rule of India even if they would like to develop their own independent country.

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## Ammyy

Patriot said:


> God Bless Kashmirs - Pakistanis are with Kashmirs.We will provide full moral support to our Kashmiri brothers against the tyrannical rule of India even if they would like to develop their own independent country.



Dude how much Pak occupied kashmir is developed till now ??? 

Even their government have no right they are just puppet of GoP they cant even make decision ...... how many universities, colleges present in P O K ????? 

Who can you claim that ????

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## majesticpankaj

Patriot said:


> God Bless Kashmirs - Pakistanis are with Kashmirs.We will provide full moral support to our Kashmiri brothers against the tyrannical rule of India even if they would like to develop their own independent country.


good, they definitely need support, some bastards are using them to inflict violence in the valley.

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## Tayyab1796

Dr.Evil said:


> Pakistani's seem to be more interested in commenting on Kashmir curfew than on the deadly sucide attacks in Mohamand.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Yes because Mohmand Agency is not a disputed region but Kashmir is ..


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## Awesome

majesticpankaj said:


> good, they definitely need support, some bastards are using them to inflict violence in the valley.


And they wear uniforms...

The only 'bastards' here are the ones the Kashmiris are beating up for killing them in fake encounters.

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## Dr.Evil

Tayyab1796 said:


> Dr.Evil said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistani's seem to be more interested in commenting on Kashmir curfew than on the deadly sucide attacks in Mohamand.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Yes because Mohmand Agency is not a disputed region but Kashmir is ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even if the said region is in socalled undisputed area, there are more pakistanis commenting about curfew in Kashmir than about the death of over 100 pakistanis.
> 
> Which is more important ??
Click to expand...

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## Dr.Evil

All those Idiots are paid henchmen, they are just paid goonda's creating disturbance.

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## Awesome

Dr.Evil said:


> All those Idiots are paid henchmen, they are just paid goonda's creating disturbance.


All over India newspapers are filled with accepting the fact that these are genuinely Kashmiri public pissed off at the Indian government and the screw ups of Manmohan Singh.

However a fringe lunatic group still hangs on to the delusion that there is "foreign hand" in this. This is big and it will only get bigger!

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## Dr.Evil

Asim Aquil said:


> All over India newspapers are filled with accepting the fact that these are genuinely Kashmiri public pissed off at the Indian government and the screw ups of Manmohan Singh.
> 
> However a fringe lunatic group still hangs on to the delusion that there is "foreign hand" in this. This is big and it will only get bigger!



Where did you get that Idea from - Just 1 or 2 people do not makeup India. It's the 1 billion plus people who makeup India.

Whatever Pakistan tries on this front its not going to achieve anything. All those paid separatists will be dealt with in most appropriate way.

I would suggest pakistan concentrate on what's happening in their country and not be too much bothered about a curfew in India.

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## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> All over India newspapers are filled with accepting the fact that these are genuinely Kashmiri public pissed off at the Indian government and the screw ups of Manmohan Singh.
> 
> However a fringe lunatic group still hangs on to the delusion that there is "foreign hand" in this. This is big and it will only get bigger!



They are angry because of death of innocent thats true but all newspaper also show the reality behind these protest .... like terrorist support for these protest, paid stone pelters .

And these terrorist groups are directly responsible for those deaths and all are supported by Pakistan .......... so this is shame for Pakistan cause for their interest they support terrorism

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## Awesome

Dr.Evil said:


> Where did you get that Idea from - Just 1 or 2 people do not makeup India. It's the 1 billion plus people who makeup India.
> 
> Whatever Pakistan tries on this front its not going to achieve anything. All those paid separatists will be dealt with in most appropriate way.
> 
> I would suggest pakistan concentrate on what's happening in their country and not be too much bothered about a curfew in India.


India has arrested Yasin Malik - an anti-Pakistan, pro-Independence leader. Right up there at par with Mirwaiz (Neutral - open to both Pakistan and Independence school of thoughts).

This is pro-Independence club mostly. The Geelanis and other pro-Pakistani club are not in the front of this protest the leaders are the pro-Independence guys and that too they started since Friday. Before that it was just the general Public

India can't use any more force than it already has, they will then get stoned from every corner of Kashmir. If India kills any more Kashmiris they will have a full blown revolution on their hands. Which India, being arrogant as India very obviously will...

Much like Sardar Patel did for Pakistan, very soon, inshAllah, Chidumbaram's recommendation to the Indian PM would be "Sir, ab yeh nahi ruknay walay, we have to give in".

---------- Post added at 08:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 PM ----------




DRDO said:


> They are angry because of death of innocent thats true but all newspaper also show the reality behind these protest .... like terrorist support for these protest, paid stone pelters .
> 
> And these terrorist groups are directly responsible for those deaths and all are supported by Pakistan .......... so this is shame for Pakistan cause for their interest they support terrorism


There is no shame for Pakistan, we support Kashmiris 100&#37;. Even if they choose Independence, we're with them!


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## Awesome

Even the political parties that operate within the Indian constitutional structure are condemning India!


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## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> inshAllah, Chidumbaram's recommendation to the Indian PM would be "Sir, ab yeh nahi ruknay walay, we have to give in".




Well if this dream make you happy so you are free to watch this

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## Awesome

PDP backs off from All party talks!!


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## Awesome

Mehbooba Mufti rubbished the claims of paid agents, LeT or a foreign hand! She repeatedly said only the state is responsible. This is not a separatist, she is pro-Indian who partakes in local elections

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## ambidex

Hizbul hand in Kashmir violence exposed 

9 Jul 2010, 1619 hrs IST 
The Pakistani hand behind the Kashmir violence is now almost certain. Now, TIMES NOW has accessed more proof - a tape of conversation between a Hizbul terrorist and a paid agent in the valley. 

The HIzbul terrorist seeks details of stone-pelting in the valley and even enquires about the increased Army presence. 

Conversation between Hizb terrorist and paid agent 

Hizbul terrorist Abu Inquilabi: Salaam Alekum 
'Paid Agent': Walkeum Asalam 

Hizbul terrorist: What has happened? 
'Paid Agent': Don't know, just that the situation is bad 

Hizbul terrorist: Has the stone-pelting begun? 
'Paid Agent': Yes, it has 

Hizbul terrorist: Has there been any protest rally today? 
'Paid Agent': Yes, the rally is planned for 9 am. Announcement has been made for all our men to participate. 

Hizbul terrorist: Swear by God? 
'Paid Agent': Swear by Allah. The Army will impose curfew only at night. 

Hizbul terrorist: I have heard Army has been called in. 
'Paid Agent': Some troops have already arrived. 

Hizbul terrorist: Army was not there before? 
'Paid Agent': The Army is in Srinagar city now. Till now it was in Shopian and Pulwama. In downtown areas of Srinagar, it is only CRPF and police. 

TIMES NOW has accessed more conversation between Pakistan handlers and their agents in the Kashmir valley - conversations between terrorists who are lodged inside the Srinagar Central jail and their operatives in the valley. 

In some of these conversations as recent as July 2nd this month, the transcripts reveal how the terrorists have sought that the houses of National Confrerence leaders in Anantnag be set ablaze. 

Pak agents on tape 

June 29, 2010 
Terrorist Shaukat (from inside Srinagar jail) calls Sheiqh Hussain (operative): Set ablaze houses of the NC leaders in Anantnag. 

July 1, 2010 
Shaukat calls Zubair and Raju: Set ablaze offices of Leh Khan and Aftab Malik (political activists) in Anantnag 

July 2, 2010 
Bablu (receives call inside Srinagar jail): Youth in Anantnag would go on the rampage after curfew is relaxed. Police and yatris would not be spared 

June 28, 2010 

Hunzla (LeT operative) in Lolab Valley: LeT commanders unable to reach Kashmir. Situation in Sopore tense 
Waleed (LeT operative): Send names, photos and address of civilians killed in Sopore firing 
Hizbul hand in Kashmir violence exposed - TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos

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## Ammyy

ambidex said:


> Hizbul hand in Kashmir violence exposed
> 
> 9 Jul 2010, 1619 hrs IST
> The Pakistani hand behind the Kashmir violence is now almost certain. Now, TIMES NOW has accessed more proof - a tape of conversation between a Hizbul terrorist and a paid agent in the valley.
> 
> The HIzbul terrorist seeks details of stone-pelting in the valley and even enquires about the increased Army presence.
> 
> Conversation between Hizb terrorist and paid agent
> 
> Hizbul terrorist Abu Inquilabi: Salaam Alekum
> 'Paid Agent': Walkeum Asalam
> 
> Hizbul terrorist: What has happened?
> 'Paid Agent': Don't know, just that the situation is bad
> 
> Hizbul terrorist: Has the stone-pelting begun?
> 'Paid Agent': Yes, it has
> 
> Hizbul terrorist: Has there been any protest rally today?
> 'Paid Agent': Yes, the rally is planned for 9 am. Announcement has been made for all our men to participate.
> 
> Hizbul terrorist: Swear by God?
> 'Paid Agent': Swear by Allah. The Army will impose curfew only at night.
> 
> Hizbul terrorist: I have heard Army has been called in.
> 'Paid Agent': Some troops have already arrived.
> 
> Hizbul terrorist: Army was not there before?
> 'Paid Agent': The Army is in Srinagar city now. Till now it was in Shopian and Pulwama. In downtown areas of Srinagar, it is only CRPF and police.
> 
> TIMES NOW has accessed more conversation between Pakistan handlers and their agents in the Kashmir valley - conversations between terrorists who are lodged inside the Srinagar Central jail and their operatives in the valley.
> 
> In some of these conversations as recent as July 2nd this month, the transcripts reveal how the terrorists have sought that the houses of National Confrerence leaders in Anantnag be set ablaze.
> 
> Pak agents on tape
> 
> June 29, 2010
> Terrorist Shaukat (from inside Srinagar jail) calls Sheiqh Hussain (operative): Set ablaze houses of the NC leaders in Anantnag.
> 
> July 1, 2010
> Shaukat calls Zubair and Raju: Set ablaze offices of Leh Khan and Aftab Malik (political activists) in Anantnag
> 
> July 2, 2010
> Bablu (receives call inside Srinagar jail): Youth in Anantnag would go on the rampage after curfew is relaxed. Police and yatris would not be spared
> 
> June 28, 2010
> 
> Hunzla (LeT operative) in Lolab Valley: LeT commanders unable to reach Kashmir. Situation in Sopore tense
> Waleed (LeT operative): Send names, photos and address of civilians killed in Sopore firing
> Hizbul hand in Kashmir violence exposed - TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos



Dude if they can reject kasab as a proof so how can you expect from them that they accept this ????

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## Icarus

DRDO said:


> They are angry because of death of innocent thats true but all newspaper also show the reality behind these protest .... like terrorist support for these protest, paid stone pelters .
> 
> And these terrorist groups are directly responsible for those deaths and all are supported by Pakistan .......... so this is shame for Pakistan cause for their interest they support terrorism



Source ????? Link ????? You can't just mouth off without a source...............and please quote neutral sources..................


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## SekrutYakhni

There should be no second thought given when it comes to the horrendous acts committed by India. The strategic/geopolitical importance of Kashmir is vital. However, morality from Indian side was thrown out of the window very earlier. 
The stance from Pakistani side should be based on moral values rather than location.


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## Icarus

How is it that times now and India TV always manage to score news about Pakistan's covert ops even when RAW can't, don't you think they would make a better intelligence agency unless you agree that it's all a lie, but then again, these guys have also claimed to have found liquid water on Mars................






EXPECT THE UNEXPECTED AND TOTALLY FALSE: TIMES NOW


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## ambidex

*Is Kashmir or Islam on the Boil? *

It is interesting, if not demeaning, to read some news columns on Kashmir which for all practical purposes mean the two things: (1) Part under Indian occupation (2) The part in Kashmir Valley synonymously known as Kashmir. Because it is now well cleansed ethnically Islamised part that even the Indian political leaders are severely and daftly constrained to discuss much for fear of a large Muslim backlash in the country. Unfortunately the western press patronises the pro-pakistani news even at the cost of a genuine Indian cause. Indian media follow the suit like a flock of sheeps as a &#8216;white man&#8217;s burden&#8217;. Accordingly contemplatively the Pakistani media are quite vociferous.

Some columns have described, &#8220;Kashmir pot on the boil again&#8221;. Both the national and international press have joined the band wagon equally in this mad race for a fast sale and high rating gimmick. But none expressed their will to address the underlying pathology of the malady that sadly lacked from their assessment uniformly. It is felt that this erodes the very basic ethical values of journalism which is responsible for shaping the modern day socio-political milieu in big ways in a democracy. 

The past month has been a very crucial period, not just for the very complex Indo-Pak relations but involving some important global summits in Washington and Toronto too. 

After the much hyped SAARC summit at Thimpu, the Indo-Pak Prime Ministers had somehow agreed to restart the bilateral talks put on hold after the 26/11 attack. Despite that there occurred nostalgically another attack on German Bakery in Pune last February. It must be reminded that it has been a very painful decision on the part of the India after those humiliatingly heinous attacks directly involving the Sovereignty repeatedly. The criminal militant involving the Parliament attack on 13 December 2001 has yet to be dealt with adequately. 

There have been two Foreign Secretary level talks between India and Pakistan, one in Delhi followed in Islamabad on 22-23rd June 2010. A SAARC Interior Ministers meeting also took place on 24-25th June 2010 in Islamabad where again Indian Foreign Secretary Ms Nirupama Rao continued her visit with Mr P. Chidambaram, Home Minister and Mr G. K. Pillai, Home Secretary for further discussions. This shows the serious willingness and resolve on the part of India to take the bilateral issues to their meaningful conclusions. 

Although the meeting between the foreign secretaries seemed cheerful, if not meaningful, but the discussions between the Home Ministers seemed far less than desired. The aim of whole exercise between Indo-Pak counterparts was to build a bridge towards &#8220;The Trust Deficit&#8221;. 

To tee off, the first mistake that happened was that Indian Flag called Tricolour was put upside down. Though it was trivialised as a small error but given the tense and sensitive nature of the spiky relations, it should, at best, preferably not been allowed to happen. At the least it did not create a good milieu even if the intention was not to hurt; but who knows? It was wisely dismissed as a trivial error corrected immediately after (stress put) the Indian Home Minister pointed out to it. The beginning was made with a gross deficiency in the desired &#8220;hospitality&#8221; if not in the &#8220;Trust&#8221;.

On Saturday (26th June), Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mahmud Qureshi said that he can not do anything about the Hafiz Saeed because in a democratic country everybody has their right for free speech; like in India. Indirectly, as one can deduce, it is a clear signal to Hafiz Saeed for further emboldened venomous hate speeches against India, in stead of &#8220;putting a lid&#8221; on his such activities as requested by Chidambaram. Hence as the morning shows the day, &#8220;Is this ruckus in Kashmir is a direct ISI instigated LeT orchestrated &#8220;full scene&#8221; perpetrated through their hired and trained man power&#8221;, one tends to ask? Some information on LeT can be obtained on the link: Profile: Lashkar-e-Taiba &#40;Army of the Pure&#41; &#40;a.k.a. Lashkar e-Tayyiba, Lashkar e-Toiba; Lashkar-i-Taiba&#41; - Council on Foreign Relations

How the various groups operate in different names in Pakistan with impunity can be deduced from the list: The terror groups that were banned in 2002 but which again started their activities under a new name include Sipah-i-Sahaba, Jaish-e-Muhammad, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Tehrik-i-Jafria, Harkatul Jihad Islami, Harkatul Mujahideen, Hizbul Tehrir, Lashkar-i-Jhangvi and Sipah-i-Muhammad. The Lashkar-e-Taiba became Jamat-ud-Dawa, Sipah-i-Sahaba became Millat-i-Islamia Pakistan, Jaish-e-Muhammad turned into Alfurqan and Khuddamul Islam and Tehrik-i-Jafria were renamed Islami Tehrik Pakistan. See the link: Mangalorean.Com- Serving Mangaloreans Around The World!) 

To highlight the point, one Colonel Neeraj Sood was killed on the night of 22nd June in an encounter with militants in Jammu and Kashmir&#8217;s Kupwara district, a highest ranking officer gone down fighting this year. In another gunfight, a lieutenant was injured in Poonch by a group of infiltrators. All these militants are provided cover by the Pakistan Army. Indian army official said that the spot in Kupwara is mountainous and has thick forest cover to make it difficult to hunt down the militants. More so when there is a backup military camouflage.

In another encounter in Bhanot area of Poonch on the same night, Lieutenant Nikhil Basmeet took a bullet when a group of infiltrators attacked his column. Sopore is a historically militant infested place and been in constant glare of media; where the security forces killed Abu Zubair, the deputy chief commander of Lashkar-e Tayyiba in Jammu and Kashmir again on 22nd June. In last May, Yoginder Rajbar, a major, was killed during an encounter with militants at Chittibandi village in Bandipora district. 

None of these brutal killings of the innocent army officers genuinely carrying out their duty and dubiously killed by these Islamic terrorists in the Jammu and Kashmir&#8217;s highly charged area by militants received its deserved news coverage; as the half hearted reports on the deliberately orchestrated and well planned &#8216;heat&#8217; by these ignorant youngsters kept involved by the hired goons and stone pelters. The Mir Jafars are always there and always will be. 

Any unrest in Jammu and Kashmir also serves a very good tactical move to push these Pakistani trained non-state fresh recruits to wage jihad in the valley. The roots of &#8220;Kashmir Pot Boiling&#8221; are deep and perennial and a well thought out annual strategy by the forces alien and outside the locality. 

Then there is a usual annual religious event Of &#8220;Amarnath Yatra (voyage)&#8221; in India starting from 1st July. It has to pass through the Anantnag District in South Srinagar. This is a Hindu important annual event, whose date, route and place is fixed for centuries, even before the birth of Islam. Two years ago, the Islamic radicals had created a big violent issue on the same Yatra on land allocation for the interim period for a break for the pilgrims. Any Hindu event becomes a cogent cause for interference by these Islamic radicals as a pious act of jihad.

All these above events are well known to the Islamic radicals nursed in the fertile land of Islamic Republic Of Pakistan. Lashkar-e Tayyiba and Jamat-ut Dawa are well known names to everybody, may be for the wrong reasons; is another point. The Chief of these both synonymous names is Mr Hafiz Saeed. He is also best known for his involvement in the Mumbai 26/11 massacre. He vows to bleed India by thousand cuts for liberation (he only knows its meaning) of Kashmir, Hyderabad, Junagarh; if not the rest of India, as also envisaged by the Senior Rep. Gary Ackerman in his report of 11th February 2010 to the House of Representatives in US. 

It is not fully clear, &#8220;How much did he play his role directly or indirectly in the Times Square fizzled bomb scare besides Maulana Masood Azhar along with Pakistani Taliban (TTP)&#8221;?

The current turmoil in Kashmir started from 11th June 2010. I shall not even try to trace the chicken-or-egg conundrum needlessly; but the Kashmir is kept on the boil intentionally. It was anticipated, in fact. I have tried to explain the psyche behind the &#8220;Kashmir Potpourri&#8221; before as it is a multimillion dollar industry for individuals as well as the Nation of Pakistan as a whole. Apart from the Islamisation industry, it is a direct hit on the raison d&#8217;&#234;tre for Pakistan Military/ISI, the religious jihadi industry nurtured in the fertile soil of Pakistan theatre there. 

One must also remember that now summer coming, the ice in the high hills has melted and it is a peak season for the militant operatives in the valley. It makes a very convenient combination of opportunities for the Pakistani sponsored Islamic terrorism in Kashmir and other parts of India. 

Hence a boiling, sizzling Kashmir is a profitable business. The present day media gets a lot of spicy, juicy news cover, the jihadis get a chance to show their one-man up ship. The ilks of LeT Islamic organisations get their &#8216;man, money and mind&#8217; funding from all over the world; not just Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries including the society of Pakistan itself where they have opened their hundreds of operative centres. Pakistan Government is incompetent and impotent before them.

Pakistan Army fulfils her India centric mission and can pretend to the West to blame India for her all ills and cast slur that they have to amass their military might on their western border. This has been a sordid reason of dissent between US and Pakistan relations for starting the renewed military operations in North Waziristan to hit the Afghan Taliban of Haqqani group. 

It also helps them maintain the disproportionate extravagant military budget and deployment against Indian side. India has never first attacked (stress put) the Pakistan, which media generally write recklessly, &#8220;so many wars fought between the two countries&#8221;. Always it has always been the Pakistan to wage all those wars; India gets needlessly equated pejoratively as the press is dominated by western influence. Hence India gets a second hand treatment. The reasons are historical as well as political, requiring a more detailed analysis, not feasible here due to irrelevance of subject and space.

It also helps the lucrative &#8220;Jihad&#8221; ideology to propagate the &#8220;Peace Loving Religion of Islam&#8221; so dear to the Islamic fundamentalists imbued in the &#8220;Hearts and Minds&#8221; of the Muslims as a whole. It helps to fuel the gingerly Pavlovian reaction on just a hint for &#8220;Islam is in Danger&#8221; (Islam Khatare Main Hai) philosophy to garner support and gather crowd at the beck of a call. 

This is the reason for the &#8220;Kashmir on The Boil&#8221; scenario. I have no doubt that there will be calls by such agencies like Human Rights Groups, International Crisis Groups, call for UN agents, call for European Union representatives and also calls for a third party mediation on the issue, calls for a Kashmiri self determination, plebiscite, and so on usual stale Pakistani meaningless rhetorics and arguments. 

LeT has claimed their membership to the tune of about four to five thousand in the Kashmir Valley. Pakistan must be playing her clandestine role which they openly claim for support to the struggle in Kashmir which has been now thoroughly islamised unabashedly. Unfortunately India can not use the word Muslims or Islam on board as opposed to Pakistan where Islam is a staple religio-political fodder despite their claim of Democracy. There is nothing communal about it there. But how far can Indian secular credentials be tested is equally a pertinent question? 

Recently there has been a spurt of violence across the streets of downtown Toronto by some masked protesters over the weekend setting police cars ablaze and smashing store windows in a violent show of opposition to the G20 summit. Toronto police Chief Bill Blair admitted police had struggled to control the crowds and used tear gas occasionally after warning the people to stay away from the troubled spot. &#8220;We have never seen that level of wanton criminality and vandalism and destruction on our streets,&#8221; he said and continued further, &#8220;There are limits to free speech, and these limits really end when it infringes on the rights and safety of others.&#8221;

The above remarks of the police chief in Toronto, where such scenes are rare, show an impassioned attitude and calls for a limit to free speech. Then how much the freedom of speech and expression should be tolerated amid the well known fundamentally orchestrated rowdism by a transnationally operated perpetual circus? Kashmir street vandalism is the best example of a foreign &#8220;State Sponsored Terrorism&#8221; directed intentionally to interfere in the internal affairs of the other nation. Bill Blair will get the shock of his life in the Valley of Kashmir. 

&#8220;Is it the Kashmir Pot on the Boil or the Islam Pot is on the Boil&#8221;; the real issue needs to be understood, projected and addressed. A real thoughtful concept of the problem can shed light not only on Kashmir pot but all the pots boiling including Pakistan, Afghanistan and the rest of the globe. Till then the pots will keep boiling; today here, and tomorrow elsewhere; and undoubtedly newer and newer unheard groups of terrorist organisations will keep breeding and raise their inimical hydra to our detriment. The latest &#8216;Times Square&#8217; bomb hoax is another good example of the pot boiling elsewhere. Not to miss to include the Russian groups too, once a powerful communist empire. Pakistan did it again to the dismay of Hillary Clinton. 


Dr. Om Prakash Sudrania
(Dr. O. P. Sudrania is a senior retired teacher in surgery and a medico-legal counsellor; now also engaged in research of socio-political analytical science as a part of service to humanity.)


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## Awesome

Indian media repeatedly saying that the protests are raging on only because Indians keep killing Kashmiris


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## ambidex

DRDO said:


> Dude if they can reject kasab as a proof so how can you expect from them that they accept this ????



Think big!
This is not to convince Kashmiri or Pakistanis but to convince rest of the India to be fully informed.

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## Awesome

Media Gag in Kashmir! This is like a total state of Martial Law!


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## jha

An advice by one of your own...

* AJK PM advises Pakistan to give up &#8216;Kashmir first&#8217; policy*



By Rauf Klasra

ISLAMABAD: In a major policy shift, the AJK Prime Minister, Raja Farooq Haider, has advised Pakistan not to link the ongoing negotiations with India with the resolution of the Kashmir dispute and instead first resolve the small irritants and controversial issues before finally sorting out the core issue of Kashmir.

He also backed the proposal to give the status of &#8216;Most Favourite Nation&#8217; (MFN) to India and allow New Delhi to use Pakistani soil as a transit route for trade purposes. India had already given MFN status to Pakistan but Islamabad never reciprocated this gesture on the ground that unless Kashmir was resolved, it would not confer this status on New Delhi.

Raja Farooq told The News that Pakistan and India should maintain the status quo on Kashmir for some time, as he believed that they should resolve other issues before taking up Kashmir. He said it would be wiser for Pakistan to wait for the right time to restart negotiations on Kashmir.

The AJK prime minister also strongly backed the inclusion of India in the Pak-Iran gas project and transit facility for India to trade with Afghanistan. Raja Farooq repeatedly explained that he was giving this advice because he believed that this was not the right time for Pakistan to press for a Kashmir settlement. At the moment, he said, Pakistan was facing a formidable security challenge from the militants and was not in a position to effectively fight the case of Kashmir at this important juncture of history.

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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Asim Aquil said:


> There is an Islamabad march planned - it is being disrupted by the Indian government but the Kashmiris are determined to march to Islamabad (district).
> 
> This is going to get bigger and bigger. I hope Yasin Malik is freed. India is jailing all the big shot activists but I think this time all major parties need to remain united in their struggle for freedom.



Asim could you provide me with some more details? Where is it starting and when? It saddens me I chose not to go Kashmir this year  Please link me to any sources, If there is one next year I will hopefully be able to participate.


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## Awesome

jha said:


> An advice by one of your own...
> 
> * AJK PM advises Pakistan to give up &#8216;Kashmir first&#8217; policy*
> 
> 
> 
> By Rauf Klasra
> 
> ISLAMABAD: In a major policy shift, the AJK Prime Minister, Raja Farooq Haider, has advised Pakistan not to link the ongoing negotiations with India with the resolution of the Kashmir dispute and instead first resolve the small irritants and controversial issues before finally sorting out the core issue of Kashmir.
> 
> He also backed the proposal to give the status of &#8216;Most Favourite Nation&#8217; (MFN) to India and allow New Delhi to use Pakistani soil as a transit route for trade purposes. India had already given MFN status to Pakistan but Islamabad never reciprocated this gesture on the ground that unless Kashmir was resolved, it would not confer this status on New Delhi.
> 
> Raja Farooq told The News that Pakistan and India should maintain the status quo on Kashmir for some time, as he believed that they should resolve other issues before taking up Kashmir. He said it would be wiser for Pakistan to wait for the right time to restart negotiations on Kashmir.
> 
> The AJK prime minister also strongly backed the inclusion of India in the Pak-Iran gas project and transit facility for India to trade with Afghanistan. Raja Farooq repeatedly explained that he was giving this advice because he believed that this was not the right time for Pakistan to press for a Kashmir settlement. At the moment, he said, Pakistan was facing a formidable security challenge from the militants and was not in a position to effectively fight the case of Kashmir at this important juncture of history.


This is the good graciousness of the AJK PM... But as a Pakistani I'm confident that there can be no meaningful peace or removal of small irritants (from India's side) if Kashmir is not resolved.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

jha said:


> An advice by one of your own...
> 
> * AJK PM advises Pakistan to give up Kashmir first policy*
> 
> 
> 
> By Rauf Klasra
> 
> ISLAMABAD: In a major policy shift, the AJK Prime Minister, Raja Farooq Haider, has advised Pakistan not to link the ongoing negotiations with India with the resolution of the Kashmir dispute and instead first resolve the small irritants and controversial issues before finally sorting out the core issue of Kashmir.
> 
> He also backed the proposal to give the status of Most Favourite Nation (MFN) to India and allow New Delhi to use Pakistani soil as a transit route for trade purposes. India had already given MFN status to Pakistan but Islamabad never reciprocated this gesture on the ground that unless Kashmir was resolved, it would not confer this status on New Delhi.
> 
> Raja Farooq told The News that Pakistan and India should maintain the status quo on Kashmir for some time, as he believed that they should resolve other issues before taking up Kashmir. He said it would be wiser for Pakistan to wait for the right time to restart negotiations on Kashmir.
> 
> The AJK prime minister also strongly backed the inclusion of India in the Pak-Iran gas project and transit facility for India to trade with Afghanistan. Raja Farooq repeatedly explained that he was giving this advice because he believed that this was not the right time for Pakistan to press for a Kashmir settlement. At the moment, he said, Pakistan was facing a formidable security challenge from the militants and was not in a position to effectively fight the case of Kashmir at this important juncture of history.



Interesting title, the article is something else though. Yes, the PM asked to 'drop' the 'Kashmir First' policy, in favour of developing Pakistan (including AJK), it would be better for both (AJK & Pakistan) to resolve one issue at a time and build up trust before moving onto Kashmir as the main topic for discussion. Yes, Pakistan is fighting against TTP, but why would the PM say this? Because, we feel Pakistani, Pakistan is our nation, Kashmir is our homeland (if that makes sense).


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## Awesome

Azad Kashmir said:


> Asim could you provide me with some more details? Where is it starting and when? It saddens me I chose not to go Kashmir this year  Please link me to any sources, If there is one next year I will hopefully be able to participate.


It is called the "Islamabad Chalo" march. Lol India's even falsely quoting it in their media as the "Anantnag Chalo" protest. Indian government has enforced the use of Anantnag district over Islamabad district in Kashmir, due to their Pakistan complex. Only Indian maps refer to it as Anantnag, the locals all call it Islamabad. Hence Islamabad chalo.

Curfew | Anantnag | Jammu Kashmir | Protest - Oneindia News


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## ambidex

This is the map of freedom.








*http://www.freedomhouse.org/uploads/fiw09/MOF09.pdf*

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=505

*Pakistanis should try next year to be fool others and themselves. *

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## Icarus

ambidex said:


> This is the map of freedom.



Not without the consent of the Kashmiris, the day they say they are happy with being as they are, we will declare the LoC to be the international border, until that day comes, we cannot give up, we have to honour the expectations of our Kashmiri brothers...........


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## Awesome

How focussed the Indians are to make this about Pakistan and totally ignoring the pissed off Kashmiris.


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## ambidex

Omar to NDTV on deploying army


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## Jade

I see a sinister design by the separatisthow come the violence before Shri Amarnath Yatra. Is there any religious angle to it?

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## Awesome

If Indians were smart about this, they would at least fire and perhaps even jail Omar Abdullah immediately. That would ensure a massive pacification to these riots.

It is the right thing to do after his government has repeatedly been caught engaged in fake encounters. And if he got his orders from someone in New Delhi, then they should also be jailed.

But of course India is all about tyranny and with each move it proves just that to the Kashmiris. It is rewarding murderers and punishing the victims.


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## Jade

Asim Aquil said:


> If Indians were smart about this, they would at least fire and perhaps even jail Omar Abdullah immediately. That would ensure a massive pacification to these riots.
> 
> It is the right thing to do after his government has repeatedly been caught engaged in fake encounters. And if he got his orders from someone in New Delhi, then they should also be jailed.
> 
> But of course India is all about tyranny and with each move it proves just that to the Kashmiris. It is rewarding murderers and punishing the victims.




Omar Abdullah is legally elected representative of the people and not a dummy one to throw at whims

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## Icarus

jade1982 said:


> Omar Abdullah is legally elected representative of the people and not a dummy one to throws at whims



But he is about as popular in Kashmir(now a days) as Hitler in Israel...................


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## ambidex

Kakgeta said:


> Not without the consent of the Kashmiris, the day they say they are happy with being as they are, we will declare the LoC to be the international border, until that day comes, we cannot give up, we have to honour the expectations of our Kashmiri brothers...........



Nobody denies your right as a global citizen but this will lead you no where. 

Kashmir issue is going to be a big foreign policy failure for Pakistan in coming years. Sooner or later even Pakistan has to understand that raising hate slogans from Islamabad is not going to solve Kashmiri peoples problems. 

Please see last link i posted and see how Indian media has gone in detail and has played its role to understand the situation from CM himself. There is elected govt and centre has already expressed that there are many genuine issues with protesters but at the same time people are conspiring to use Kashmiris as pawns.


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## Awesome

jade1982 said:


> Omar Abdullah is legally elected representative of the people and not a dummy one to throw at whims


He is also complicit in murders and against whom the entire nation of Kashmir is protesting!


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## Jade

Kakgeta said:


> But he is about as popular in Kashmir(now a days) as Hitler in Israel...................



It is common that elected representatives popularity vacillates year on year. But, they are mandated by the people to represent them for a fixed period


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## jha

*If Indians were smart about this, they would at least fire and perhaps even jail Omar Abdullah immediately. That would ensure a massive pacification to these riots.*

 god..you definitely are a great strategist.. 

*It is the right thing to do after his government has repeatedly been caught engaged in fake encounters. And if he got his orders from someone in New Delhi, then they should also be jailed.*

Yeah thats right..what an example of selective reading..The FAKE ENCOUNTERblah came into picture because of transparency which of course you wont agree to because it does not fit to your propaganda..

*But of course India is all about tyranny and with each move it proves just that to the Kashmiris. It is rewarding murderers and punishing the victims.
*

Its better for me to not touch this issue.because if i start to write on your side , it will not go well with many of you..


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## Jade

Asim Aquil said:


> He is also complicit in murders and against whom the entire nation of Kashmir is protesting!



It has not been proved yet. Until proven he is elected leader. One cannot be prosecute based on allegations


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## Awesome

Mohsin Mohi-Ud Din: Kashmir: Bullets for Books and Stones, Continued Crimes Against Humanity By The World's Largest Democracy

While Indian Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao had met with her Pakistani counterpart, Salman Basir, for talks last month, Kashmiris have been mourning the widespread murders of Kashmiri youth by state security forces, some 15 people this past month. The murders have sparked the largest civil protests by Kashmiris in the last two years in the Indian Administered Kashmir valley, nestled between India and Pakistan. "Everything is dead. The curfew has kept us in our homes for the last two weeks. No work, no bread, no milk, no school. More than five people have been killed in the last 24 hours," said sources speaking with me over the phone from Srinagar, Kashmir. Adding fuel to the fire, earlier this year it was revealed that Indian paramilitary forces were engaged in staging fake encounter killings by kidnapping Kashmiri civilians and reporting the murders of the civilians as armed encounters with foreign militants/terrorists. With a continuing lack of justice and accountability suffocating Kashmiri civil society, Kashmir may grow more vulnerable to falling under a resurgence of armed uprising and religious radicalization that currently plagues the region, namely in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Further instability and lawlessness in the region will marginalize the efforts of the United States and other nations who remain invested in the security and peace of the region.

*WIDESPREAD KILLINGS OF YOUTH*






Several weeks ago, a 17 year old Kashmir student, Tufail Ahmad Matoo, was walking home amidst a routine and civil anti-India protest by Kashmiris in the embattled region of Indian Occupied Kashmir. He was carrying his books. Like many Kashmiri youth of today, Tufail grew up having to endure an environment of indiscriminant arrests and killings by state security forces as well as militants. Today, an entire generation of young Kashmiris like Tufail have grown up witnessing the murder of over 70,000 people and the kidnappings and disappearances of over 8,000 Kashmiris, since 1989. Yet Tufail, like most Kashmiri youth, was focusing on his studies as means of escape. Unfortunately, like thousands of young Kashmiri boys before him, Tufail's life was cut short when he was shot in the head by a rubber bullet from Indian security forces and police last month. The killing of Tufail sparked civil protests across the Kashmir valley for the last several weeks. Two more Kashmiri youth were murdered by state security forces during funeral processions and civil protests in the days following Tufail's murder last month. As recently as this week, three more innocent Kashmiris have been killed, including a 16 year old boy who was murdered when security forces opened fire on protesters at a funeral procession of a 17 year old boy murdered Tuesday.

Just days after the student, Tufail, was murdered by state security forces, Rafiq Bangroo, 25, was severely beaten by the Indian Administered Central Reserve Police Force, CRPF, during a protest against Tufail's murder. Rafiq succumbed to his injuries. One day later, during the funeral procession for Rafiq Bangroo, the deceased's neighbor, Javaid Malla, 20, was shot and killed by security forces. Once again, curfews and civil shutdowns have left schools and businesses closed and the valley at a stand still. Indian paramilitary and police forces have been opening fire on protesters and taking men and boys into custody. This past Monday, 17 year old Muzaffar Bhat disappeared after troops chased him and a group of young boys throwing stones. Muzzafar's body was found the next day and he was allegedley beaten to death. At the funeral procession for Muzaffar, a 16 year old boy, Abrar Khan, was murdered by police during mass civil protests against the alleged killings. Some 15 Kashmiri civilians have been killed by Indian security forces since June. Kashmiris are again locked down under the gun of security forces that operate brutally with impunity. The beatings and shoot-to-kill tactics of state security forces legalized under draconian security laws continue to marginalize the basic rights, (such as the to life and movement), of millions of women and children of Kashmir.

The murders of several Kashmiri youth this past month by security forces clearly exhibits the widespread and systematic practice of shoot-to-kill strategies conducted by the state security apparatuses of India. Soldiers and state security forces are able to use bullets to combat stones and slogans under the protection of Indian security legislation, such as the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, AFSPA, which grants Indian paramilitary and police forces license to detain, shoot, and torture at will with virtual protection from being prosecuted by civilian courts and international bodies.

*FAKE ENCOUNTER KILLINGS AND MASS GRAVES*


Kashmir's history has seen over 70,000 casualties and 8,000 + documented enforced disappearances since 1989. As is often the case, reports in the media about Kashmir often document Indian soldiers' killings of militants as advertised by the state security forces of India. Yet, the international community and media remain silent on documented civilian killings as well as fake encounter killings in which Kashmiri civilians are killed in custody and pawned to the international community as 'foreign militants/terrorists'. The practice of fake encounter killings is widespread throughout the valley as it rewards Indian forces legitimacy in the eyes of the media that India's military presence in the Kashmir valley is imperative to stopping the 'militancy'. Consequently, Kashmir remains one of the most militarized areas in the world with over 500,000 Indian paramilitary forces policing a population under draconian security laws.

xamples of fake encounter killings are as recent as April 2010. The International People's Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice in Indian Administered Kashmir has reported that Shahzad Ahmad (27 years old), Riyaz Ahmad (20 years old), and Mohammad Shafi (19 years old) were executed in a fake encounter in Kupwara District. The men were last seen in the custody of special-counter-insurgency personnel. The family reported the men missing after several days. At the same time, the military reported that security forces killed three foreign militants in the area. After a police investigation, the bodies of the three alleged foreign militants were found. Army personnel are reported to have pressured local police to report the bodies as those of foreign militants. Once the bodies were exhumed however, it was concluded that the bodies were Kashmiri civilians, not foreign terrorists and autopsies showed the bodies to have been shot at close range, execution style. ( It must be noted that rarely do police investigations into arbitrary arrests and kidnappings yield results.) The murders of the three Kashmiri men have since been authenticated as fake encounters. In another example on April 14, a 70 year old Kashmiri pan-handler met the same fate and he too was mislabeled by the Indian security forces as a foreign militant. The indiscriminate killing of three youth in the past eleven days is evidence enough of widespread human rights abuse in Kashmir. Yet, there are thousands of more stories of fake encounter killings in Kashmir that are evidence to crimes by state security forces. Such widespread and systematic practices constitute crimes against humanity.

Adding urgency to the conflict in Kashmir is the recent discovery of over 2,700 unmarked graves in Kashmir. The Kashmir People's Tribunal recently documented the graves in a report titled Buried Evidence, authored by the conveners of the International Kashmir People's Tribunal , Dr. Angana Cahtterji and Parvez Imroz, two leading human rights investigators in South East Asia. The Tribunal reported over 2,900 bodies across 55 villages contained in over 2,700 mass graves. Since the release of the report, Indian security forces refuse an investigation into identifying the bodies. They claim the bodies to be those of foreign terrorists. (State security forces have also made attempts on the lives of both conveners from the Tribunal.) Of the few bodies that were exhumed, it was found that the bodies of the alleged foreign terrorists in fact were authenticated fake encounters in which Kashmiri civilians, who had been reported missing by their families, were taken into custody by security forces and then executed. The slain men were not foreign terrorists, but Kashmiris. The Kashmir People's Tribunal reports " it is reasonable to contend that the 8,000 + enforced and involuntary disappearances since 1989 would correlate to the number of bodies found in unknown, unmarked, and mass graves across Kashmir." Lawyers have filed thousands of petitions and the civilian population continues to engage in civil protests for accountability, however, the calls for justice and accountability remain unanswered. Consequently, young Kashmiri boys, like 17 year-old Tufail, continue to be victims of indiscriminant killings by the state security forces.

*THE RISKS AND THE NEEDS*

For every boy like Tufail that is killed, there risks more youth falling vulnerable to taking up the gun as a result of legislated political and physical oppression. One loss of an innocent young life is on its own deplorable, and yet, two more Kashmiri youth had been killed by Indian security forces in that same week, last month. This week, four more innocents were murdered during funeral processions and protests, among them two more 17 and 16 year old boys. The international community must demand more accountability from the world's largest democracy, India. As long as there exists such widespread and systematic extra-judicial killings and enforced disappearances, the youth of today, who have seen nothing but failed political and judicial processes, will take to the gun and we may see a resurgence of the armed militant movement that devastated Kashmir and the region in 1989.

Making matters more fragile is the growing instability and armed radicalization in Taliban controlled areas throughout neighboring Afghanistan and Pakistan. Over two decades ago, U.S-backed Islamic militants, or, mujahideen, led an uprising against Soviet-controlled Afghanistan in the 1980s. The mujahideen's fight against abuses and crimes sparked the armed movement of youth in Kashmir in 1989 against Indian occupation and human rights abuse. Upon their victory in Afghanistan, the mujahideen fighters grew alienated and radicalized, eventually forming what we today identify as the Taliban. Today we see a resurgence of Taliban fighters in Afghanistan and Pakistan. This regional trend, coupled with the deteriorating human rights situation in Kashmir, may once again make Kashmir a potential time bomb for further instability in the region. The international community must not let its efforts for regional security be sabotaged by growing lawlessness and instability in Indian Occupied Kashmir. In Kashmir, everyone is guilty. Pakistan is to blame for decades of funding and training the militancy; Kashmiri militant groups are to blame for rash and inhumane killings of the civilians (including pandits); however, India and the India military are to blame for the failed security of the people of Kashmir which has resulted in crimes against humanity perpetrated by the India's security apparatuses. And while every party is guilty in some way, the source of the instability today, (as dictated by Kashmiri civil society and UN and international rights reports), stems from the indiscriminant killing of civilians by Indian paramilitary forces and the extra-judicial killings that continue unabated. Today, as has been the case for over two decades, it is the innocent Kashmiri women and children who are the greatest victims of Pakistan and India's policies and the international community's indifference.

Kashmiri civil society needs something to hold onto as they find themselves locked in an increasingly fragile environment: prospects for political or judicial resolution seem dim while desperate violent strategies may be gaining ground as they are in neighboring Afghanistan and Pakistan. Therefore, it is imperative for India's ally, the United States and members U.N Security Council, to ensure that India commits to transparent, independent, and robust investigations of extrajudicial killings and indiscriminant attacks on civil society in Kashmir. International rights bodies must be allowed access by India to perform independent investigations into mass graves documented in the Kashmir Tribunal's report. Additionally, draconian state-security legislation must be challenged by the international community because such laws allow for indiscriminant arrests, torture, and murder of civilians. Security legislation, such as the Disturbed Areas Act and the Armed forces Special Powers Act, must be repealed for they are in direct contravention of the basic tenants within the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, particularly the right to life. Any amended piece of security legislation must incorporate the UN Declaration on Protection of All Persons from Enforced Disappearances and the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhumane or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.

CONCLUSION

Kashmiri civilians are repeatedly murdered by Indian forces and then pawned to the international community as foreign terrorists. This should no longer be a tolerated enterprise for India's militarization of Kashmir. Kashmiri mothers, fathers, and the youth are against terrorism being that Kashmiris are themselves the main victims of grenade attacks by Pakistani-backed militants, as well as, the bullets and mortars of Indian state security forces. The Kashmiri people remain strong and they hold on to a hope that the Obama Administration and UN bodies will pressure India to: demilitarize the valley; repeal repressive security legislation; and account for human rights violations committed over the last 20 years. However, as Kashmiri youth continue to be murdered by state security forces this week, the avenues for legal and political resolution seem less attainable for the everyday Kashmiri. Should the world not come to the aid of the people of Kashmir, who for over two decades have had to endure the absence of justice and accountability, then the valley may forever fall in the spiraling gyre of lawlessness and violence that will stifle security in South Asia, and thus threaten the security of other nations.

Kashmiris believe in democracy and civil society and that is why they continue to carry out civil protests amidst the bullets and batons of brutal of state security apparatuses. Yet, they are human and they desperately hold on to the fragile hope for justice and accountability. It is time the world stands with them and not let more 17 year-old boys be slain in vain.

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## Awesome

jha said:


> *If Indians were smart about this, they would at least fire and perhaps even jail Omar Abdullah immediately. That would ensure a massive pacification to these riots.*
> 
> god..you definitely are a great strategist..
> 
> *It is the right thing to do after his government has repeatedly been caught engaged in fake encounters. And if he got his orders from someone in New Delhi, then they should also be jailed.*
> 
> Yeah thats right..what an example of selective reading..The FAKE ENCOUNTERblah came into picture because of transparency which of course you wont agree to because it does not fit to your propaganda..
> 
> *But of course India is all about tyranny and with each move it proves just that to the Kashmiris. It is rewarding murderers and punishing the victims.
> *
> 
> Its better for me to not touch this issue.because if i start to write on your side , it will not go well with many of you..


Transparency? This is the internet, facebook, youtube, mobile phone cameras world. You couldn't hide it! Pakistan has been saying this happens since 1947!

You want shabashi for your murders? Just because those murders in the Indian security forces were caught with their pants down?


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## jha

Asim Aquil said:


> Transparency? This is the internet, facebook, youtube, mobile phone cameras world. You couldn't hide it! Pakistan has been saying this happens since 1947!
> 
> You want shabashi for your murders? Just because those murders in the Indian security forces were caught with their pants down?



Told you na..if i start writing down, some moderator will claim it to be off-topic and delete it...so i wont say anything regarding this...however if you really want to debate, Pm me and i'll give you the details since i have spent considerable amount of time in Kashmir.

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## Jade

Asim Aquil said:


> TJust because those murders in the Indian security forces were caught with their pants down?



It is easy to make allegations, but hard to prove them. I can also allege that separatists planned and instigated Kashmir violence. Even I can post a news item as a proof. But, does this proves anything? 

*Did separatists plan, instigate Kashmir violence?*

NEW DELHI: Involvement of hardline separatists in engineering some of the violence in the Kashmir valley is indicated by an intercepted conversation between two of them during which they discussed killing of at least 15 people in a procession near Srinagar on Wednesday.

A large procession had started in Budgam district on the outskirts of Srinagar in the evening and two senior office-bearers of the hardline Hurriyat faction led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani discussed how to utilise it to create casualties, according to the transcript of the conversation available with the Home Ministry.

According to the transcript, one of the office-bearers, Ghulam Ahmed Dar, was heard telling Shabir Ahmed Wani, another office-bearer, that a procession of nearly 20,000 people had started from Magam and was going towards Budgam.

Wani tells Dar, "You guys enjoy payments sitting at home and do nothing."

Dar, in his response, says, "The management of crowd becomes difficult later.....it gets difficult to manage the mob later."

Dar then ends up by saying, "At least 15 people should be martyred today."

However in the event, the police dispersed the procession with a mild cane charge and no untoward incident took place.


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## Raghu

> We want Freedom" and "Blood for Blood" - Thousands chant in Kashmir March



*Only four districts in the Kashmir valley are seeing agitations.Rest of the J & K state , in Jammu and Ladhak are as peaceful as zen monks.*


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## M82

We want Freedom" and "Blood for Blood" - Thousands of *PAID* separatists chant in Kashmir March. 

Now the topic makes sense... Atleast you guys have money to pay those morons(separatists,terrorists)...


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## jha

*Kashmir peaceful, army to standby till next week*

SRINAGAR/NEW DELHI: Barring a few stray incidents of violence, most parts of the Kashmir Valley were peaceful Saturday as the curfew relaxations continued after three days of restrictions, but chief minister Omar Abdullah said the army would be on standby till next week.

"There has been no major incident since Friday" when the curfew was lifted to allow people to offer prayers at night on the occasion of Shab-e-Mehraj (ascension of the Prophet to heaven), Omar Abdullah said in an interview to TV news channel in Srinagar.

He said since Friday, the army was doing "standby duties only" in the Valley. "It has not been deployed on the streets."

Asked when he expected to withdraw the army, Omar said: "When we have that level of confidence, we will send back the army. It may be some time next week."

Curfew was clamped in the Kashmir Valley following widespread violence after the death of a dozen people in firing by security forces. The army was called in to stage flag marches, for the first time in more than a decade.

On Friday evening, the curfew was relaxed throughout the Valley, except in Sopore and Kakpora towns, to facilitate the celebrations of Shab-e-Meraj.

People spent the night offering prayers in mosques and no major incident of violence was reported. This encouraged the authorities to extend the relaxation during the day.

Stray incidents of violence occurred at Anantnag and Pulwana towns and Maisuma locality in Srinagar city during the day.

"Curfew was quickly re-imposed in these places and the situation brought under control," a senior police officer said here.

Restrictions were also imposed in Baramulla town in the afternoon although the day started normally there.

Public transport and markets remained closed in Srinagar, but private transport moved normally. People were seen buying essentials items from the shops that were open in the interior areas away from the main roads.

In the afternoon, Mirwaiz Umer Farooq, chairman of the moderate Hurriyat group, led a procession against alleged human rights violations by the security forces. The procession started from the Rajouri Kadal area to the Hazratbal shrine, the focus of the day's festivities in the city.

Mirwaiz Umer also spoke against the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) and demanded it should be immediately repealed.

The procession started swelling as it passed through the city's streets enroute to the Hazratbal shrine. The people in the procession shouted pro-freedom and anti-India slogans.

Police and the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) intercepted the procession and resorted to baton charge and firing tear smoke shells to disperse the crowd.

Perhaps for the first time in the history of the Hazratbal shrine, just a few thousand devotees offered prayers at the shrine due to the heightened tensions in Srinagar city and elsewhere in the Valley.

Normally tens of thousands of devotees throng the shrine on festivals.

A hair of the Prophet's beard is housed inside the shrine and is displayed to the devotees five times during the day on Muslim festivals.

Meanwhile in New Delhi, union New and Renewable Energy Minister Farooq Abdullah met Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Home Minister P. Chidambaram and sought help for his son Omar Abdullah to tide over the crisis in Jammu and Kashmir.

Officials at the Jammu and Kashmir House in New Delhi said that the former chief minister requested assistance so that the younger Abdullah could control the volatile situation.

Farooq Abdullah later left for Srinagar, where Omar Abdullah has called an all-party meeting Monday.

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## DesiGuy

Asim Aquil said:


> And they wear uniforms...
> 
> *The only 'bastards' here are the ones the Kashmiris are beating up for killing them in fake encounters.*





I agree with this guy. recently, there have been many events. There is no doubt that it's hard to find terrorists in civilians when they hide themselves. However there is something called "discipline" which the Indian army /police is lacking in Kashmir. 

They center government has to much more strict on Indian army in Kashmir.


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## Areesh

ambidex said:


> Think big!
> This is not to convince Kashmiri or Pakistanis but to convince rest of the India to be fully informed.



Replace the word "convince" with fool and there is nothing wrong in your post.

Like this.



> This is not to fool Kashmiri or Pakistanis but to fool rest of the India to be fully informed



Now that looks better.


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## Spitfighter

This stone pelting nonsense is really getting out of hand. We should identify and arrest the miscreants in the middle of the night and throw them in jail for a good decade or so. No matter their grievances, assault with a deadly weapon is a serious offense and these criminals should be dealt with appropriately.

Clearly the separatists are being egged on by foreign elements. I fully support the armed forces and the CRPF in their duties. I am sure they will restore law and order shortly. 

You can hope and pray that the situation spirals out of control, India has prevailed for 60 years and we're only getting stronger. Pakistanis spend more time discussing Kashmir than they do domestic terrorism, as if they live in the Pakistan of the '90s. Once the terrorists take on major cities like Karachi and Lahore and really bring the message home all our problems will fade away on their own. Eventually there will be no escape from the all political, economic and strategic failures of the state.

We'll 'resolve' Kashmir when we can get the most bang for our buck. Time is on our side, patience is all we need.

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## Kashmiri Nationalist

ambidex said:


> Nobody denies your right as a global citizen but this will lead you no where.
> 
> Kashmir issue is going to be a big foreign policy failure for Pakistan in coming years. Sooner or later even Pakistan has to understand that raising hate slogans from Islamabad is not going to solve Kashmiri peoples problems.
> 
> Please see last link i posted and see how Indian media has gone in detail and has played its role to understand the situation from CM himself. There is elected govt and centre has already expressed that there are many genuine issues with protesters but at the same time people are conspiring to use Kashmiris as pawns.



He does not say that as a global citizen, please read up on the conflict on which your are posting about. Pakistanis considers Kashmiris their own brothers, so calling him a global citizen is out the window, no?


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## Areesh




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## moha199

Dr.Evil said:


> Where did you get that Idea from - Just 1 or 2 people do not makeup India. It's the 1 billion plus people who makeup India.
> 
> Whatever Pakistan tries on this front its not going to achieve anything. All those paid separatists will be dealt with in most appropriate way.
> 
> I would suggest pakistan concentrate on what's happening in their country and not be too much bothered about a curfew in India.


Then buddy boy what are you doing on PDF, You should also mind your own business! as telling Pakistanis. lmao you guys are just nothing but so called mature people but in reality you are just 5 year old. This is my candy no its mine! This is a think tank forum we talk about stuff and it has nothing to do what i should care or you should care. Act mature please


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## EjazR

All the 160 killed in Urumqi weremuslims and the riots started because of some Uighurs protesting for work were killed.
The "ring leaders" of the protestors around 20 of them were then hanged in two weeks. And there was no media access or even Internet access in that area for six months. Ofcourse there was not a peep of protest from GoP on that. The hypocrisy becomes very evident when pro-indendance groups like JKLF orBNF are banned in Pakistani Kashmir.


But my point is that India is not China or Pakistan, so to compare and say that look China killed 160 in three days or look at Balochistan or FATA e.t.c. is not right. We have a higher standardof HR rights to follow through on and media curbs is not right. This is not China or FATA. If there are security issues, the media personnel should be embedded for the time being and made free asap.

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## EjazR

jonasad said:


> Why dont you shoot ppl in delhi, bihar, jharkand, uttar pradesh, tamil nadu, orrisa, andhra pradesh, rajasthan when they are protesting?
> 
> There were violence too during these protests on july 5, 2010
> 
> Strike called by opposition to protest fuel price hike hits Indias transport, businesses
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/06/world/asia/06india.html
> 
> Democracy at its best, isn't it? Losers




PEople in other states also get shot at. Infact according to national statistics if these are correct, people in UP and Maharashtra are more likely to be shot at and killed than in J&K. Read the article below.

Still it doesn't make it right. Its a national problem and because of the situation in J&K more sensitive there.

*The Hindu : Front Page : Srinagar Army deployment driven by panic?*

*Poor crowd control training leading to fatalities in Kashmir urban clashes every summer, say experts*

NEW DELHI:Early in the morning, half a company of soldiers from the Army's Srinagar-based 31 sub-area command rode from the cantonment to the airport. In the afternoon, the troops returned, this time driving through tense inner-city neighbourhoods.

Wednesday was the first day in 17 years that the Indian Army had been ordered out to assist civilian authority in Srinagar  but, ironically enough, there were fewer military vehicles on the city's main highways than are seen on normal days. No actual Army deployment has taken place in the city and, Defence Ministry sources told TheHindu, none is planned: the Srinagar-based XV corps has instructions only to stand by in the event of a crisis.

The Jammu and Kashmir government called for military aid after three weeks of bruising urban violence, which broke out on June 11. Four people were shot dead by police and Central Reserve Police Force personnel on Tuesday, bringing the fatalities in the recent violence to 15. Police say six other civilians were killed in clashes earlier this summer, as well as in incidents linked to clashes.

The last time the Army was out on Srinagar's streets was in April 1993, when elements of the Jammu and Kashmir Police mutinied. Later, that October, the Army was called into action after jihadists occupied Hazratbal, a revered shrine that houses a relic reputed to be a hair from the beard of Prophet Muhammad. In 1999, troops were called in briefly for assistance in an attempt to rescue officials trapped in a terrorist assault on the headquarters of the Jammu and Kashmir's Police crack counter-terrorism force, the Special Operations Group.

Never, however, has the Army been asked to assist in urban crowd control in Kashmir's cities  and many experts are asking if this summer's clashes, appalling as their toll has been, constitute the kind of crisis that justifies calling out troops.

Figures published by the Union Home Ministry's National Crime Records Bureau suggest panic, instead of a calm appraisal, may have driven the decision to call in the Army: the clashes on Srinagar's streets are like a long-running fever, not an emergency that needs surgical intervention.

In 2003, the year the People's Democratic Party-Congress alliance government took office, six people were killed in 47 incidents involving the use of lethal force by police. Thirteen civilians were killed in 2004, Chief Minister Mufti Mohammad Saeed's full first year in office. Police are recorded as having opened fire on 123 occasions.

The next year, though, fatalities in police firing rose sharply to 50. That September, the State government withdrew Border Security Force units committed to counter-insurgency operations in Srinagar, and replaced them by the Central Reserve Police Force, in an effort to contain killings of civilians.

In 2006, the year Chief Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad took office, there were no civilian fatalities caused by police. Even though Srinagar saw some urban violence that summer, in the course of protests against a prostitution racket in which politicians were implicated, there was little bloodshed.

But the next year eight civilians were killed in 47 instances of police firing.

Fatalities rose sharply in 2008  a year when large-scale protests against the grant of land-use rights to Shri Amarnath Shrine Board tore apart Jammu and Kashmir. The State government reported 43 deaths and 317 injuries in 379 incidents involving use of lethal force by police.

Data is not yet available for 2009, but a senior police official told TheHinduthat more than 15 civilians had been killed in police firing last summer too.

*National problem*

*Fatalities caused by police firing have been far fewer in Jammu and Kashmir than in many other States less threatened by large-scale protests. Police in Uttar Pradesh killed 104 civilians and injured 145 in 608 incidents of police firing in 2008. Maharashtra reported 47 civilian deaths in 89 incidents of police firing.*

*Police in several States, the data shows, are more likely than their Jammu and Kashmir counterparts to open fire to kill. In 2007, 30 civilians were killed in Andhra Pradesh in 45 incidents of police firing; eight died in Jammu and Kashmir in 47 incidents. Back in 2006, the Andhra Pradesh police killed 72 civilians in 79 incidents of firing, while 138 Chhattisgarh residents were shot dead in 213 incidents.*

Part of the problem, experts say, lies in deteriorating riot-control skills. Indian police forces, notes the New Delhi-based Institute for Conflict Management's Ajai Sahni, used to be internationally regarded for their crowd control skills. Police managing agitations in Punjab or Assam quite routinely dispersed crowds of tens of thousands of people without opening fire.

The fact that police forces across the country are using lethal force to disperse a few hundred people throwing stones, Mr. Sahni argues, shows something has gone badly wrong.

Army sources said the Jammu and Kashmir government had been told troops were untrained in riot control duties, and would be unable to assist in crowd control. We were told our presence was intended to be demonstrative, a senior officer said, and that we would not be drawn into riot-related duties.

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## anurag_singh

To Indians :-
Kashmir is our internal matter so need to discuss it with outsiders. If they start new threads regarding kashmir then just don't pay attention on them. But still you people are writing your comments so I think there may be two cases:-
Either You fill irritated (then just don't comment otherwise You will involve in serious mess) or You enjoy irritating Pakistanis on this matter(Then it's your wish).
But remember one thing "Kashmir is our internal matter."


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## Hulk

EjazR is India's superstar on PDF. How many agree?


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## Hulk

I am not scared to discuss, leave your emotion when on forum. Mostly it is the belief that drives our thoughts more then facts. I know Kashmiri's did not came out in protest in 1998 Kargil time. This is enough to prove they are not with Pakistan. They have greviences with India and enemies plant paid stoges to flare up atmosphere. Some other looking does not know about paid stone pelters follow suite. Time has come to pick all stone pelters approx few hundred and just send them to Bhiar jail for 1 year.


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## EjazR

*The Hindu : Opinion / Op-Ed : The making of Srinagar's teenage martyrs*

Four weeks ago, a tear-gas shell arced over a crowded street in Srinagar's Rajouri Kadal area. It landed, with surreal precision, on Tufail Mattoo, ripping apart the 17-year-old's skull.

Mattoo wasn't seeking martyrdom; he was just trying to make his way home from school. Ever since, though, Kashmir's cities have seen a wave of murderous clashes between the police and the protesters  fuelled by a radical Islamism that has acquired ideological influence among the young. For the young men who have been battling police, Mattoo was a martyr. His loved ones don't seem to see it quite the same way.

Muhammad Husain Mattoo, the accidental martyr's father, gently argued with the protesters who wanted to march with his son's body to Srinagar's Mazhar-e-Shauhda, a graveyard where hundreds of those killed in the anti-India movement are buried. Later, he gave in  but on national television, he made clear that he disapproved of the rioting that broke out after his son's death.

The parents of at least some of the men who have died since seem to feel the same way. Muhammad Rafiq Bangroo, shot dead by police on June 12, was buried at the Dana Mazhar in Safakadal, as his family's tradition mandates. Even though Muzaffar Ahmad Bhat's parents were furious at the police who chased their son into the stream where he drowned on July 5, they rejected pleas from secessionist leader Shakeel Bakshi to have their child buried at the Mazhar-e-Shauhda. So did the family of Fayyaz Ahmad Wani, who was killed a few hours later.

In these stories lie important clues about the violence that has torn Kashmir apart this summer.

*Mapping the violence*

Mapping the violence in Kashmir helps us understand who the protesters are, as well as the reach of the urban Islamism that has manifested itself in repeated clashes since 2006.

Parts of Srinagar, data gathered from police stations by The Hindu make clear, have accounted for a disproportionate share of the violence. More than half of the 21 civilians killed in police action between January 1 and July 7, 2010 were Srinagar residents. Thirty-two of the 72 civilians injured in the clashes also belonged to the city. Police say 141 officers and 62 CRPF personnel were injured in the clashes  a third of the 623 injured across Kashmir.

Between these dates, police recorded 269 clashes involving violent mobs across Kashmir. Just under 45 per cent of the clashes took place in Srinagar, and most were concentrated in the limits of five police stations  Rainawari, Nowhatta, Maharajgunj, Khanyar and Safakadal.

Low-turnout urban pockets in northern Kashmir have accounted for the bulk of violence outside of Srinagar. The north Kashmir trading town of Baramulla, like Srinagar's shahr-e-khaas a major trading centre before Independence, accounted for 46 clashes. Nearby Sopore, a major apple-trading centre which has been a stronghold of the Jamaat-e-Islami, saw 21. *Put together, the three towns accounted for 69.5 per cent of all violent protests in Kashmir this summer.*

Last year, too, the pattern was similar. Jammu and Kashmir saw 290 incidents involving clashes between protesters and police; only 64 took place outside of Srinagar, Baramulla and Sopore, and most of these were concentrated around Shopian, where the alleged rape-murder of two women caused widespread rage.
Islamists and urban despair

The violence seems driven by despair, not coherent political design. Much of the rioting has taken place in Srinagar's shahr-e-khaas, neighbourhoods which made up the city's traditional trading and artisanal hubs. The protesters consist in the main of what might be described as a lumpen bourgeoisie. The rioters are children of a once-powerful social class that has been in decline for decades.

*In the years after Independence, the shahr-e-khaas saw intense contestation between the traditionalist cleric, Mirwaiz Mohammad Farooq, and the National Conference. The struggle represented the conflict between the old bourgeoisie and an emerging new élite of contractors and businessmen. In 1986, though, the two parties allied. Mirwaiz Farooq refused to support secessionism after jihadist violence broke out three years later, and was assassinated in May, 1990. Both Mirwaiz Farooq and his assassin, Abdullah Bangroo, were, ironically enough, buried in the Mazhar-e-Shauhda.*

His son and successor, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, reversed course  and emerged as the principal leader of the secessionist All Parties Hurriyat Conference. The younger Mirwaiz's decision to boycott successive elections created a peculiar political situation in the shahr-e-khaas. Mirwaiz Farooq, focussed on securing a dialogue with India he hoped would lead to power, made little effort to address the concerns of his constituency. For their part, National Conference legislators elected from Srinagar won in low-turnout elections that gave them little legitimacy.

Frustrated by the failure of traditional politicians to deliver, young people began lashing out at a political order that had no space for their concerns. Their anger expressed itself in hostility to India and, increasingly, in slogans supportive of the Islamist movement and jihadist organisations like the Lashkar. Kashmir has a long Islamist politician tradition, and the Jamaat-e-Islami was adroit in leveraging ethnic and religious anxieties to secure electoral power. The sustained street clashes that began in 2006, though, were characterised not just by their remarkable intensity but their complete dissociation from organised political life. Put simply, the rioting marked the death-throes of an old political order.

Kashmir's Islamist patriarch, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, stepped in to fill the gap. There is evidence that leaders of Mr. Geelani's Tehreek-i-Hurriyat have paid local activists to initiate clashes with police. The Tehreek-i-Hurriyat, though, simply doesn't have the political networks needed to sustain a large-scale, coordinated movement. Instead, young Islamists appear to have acted locally in response to its calls, using everything from mosque public address systems to mobile phone text messaging to prepare for marches through their neighbourhoods.

*Last year, religious traditionalists began to understand the threat these mobilisations posed to their own influence. Jamiat Ahl-e-Hadith president Shaukat Ahmad Shah declared that Prophet Mohammad himself had held stone-throwing to be un-Islamic. Mirwaiz Farooq backed Shah. So, too, did Kashmir's Grand Mufti, Mufti Mohammad Bashiruddin.*

But Islamist leaders hit back. Mr. Geelani said it was natural for youth to show anger by pelting stones. Islamic Students League leader Shakeel Bakshi, in turn, described the protests as a Kashmiri version of the Palestinian intifada. In an effort to legitimise his position, Bakshi held a seminar where he displayed images purporting to show the eminent Palestinian-American scholar Edward Said throwing stones at Israeli soldiers in the occupied territories.

Older people  schooled, unlike their children, in a system of institutional politics  have been deeply uncomfortable with the violent clashes. *Politicians elected with substantial mandates have, moreover, succeeded in resisting Islamist radicalisation across large swathes of Kashmir. Langate, perched between volatile Srinagar and Baramulla, has seen no violence. Neither has Kupwara. Chief Minister Omar Abdullah's home district, Ganderbal, saw just six clashes in which only one civilian was injured. In Kulgam, the Jamaat-e-Islami has, despite the backing of elements of the People's Democratic Party, failed to spark off significant unrest.*

But on Srinagar's streets, there's little doubt that the hurled stone  and the bullet fired back in anger  are likely to form part of the vocabulary of political life for some time to come. Kashmir's politicians are struggling to find a language with which to address the problem. These young people, said the State's former Deputy Chief Minister, Muzaffar Husain Beigh, last week, they listen to no-one. Large-scale urban reconstruction efforts, more effective methods of non-lethal crowd control and, perhaps most important of all, more local democracy are all needed  but no one in power seems clear just how the first step forward might be taken.

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## Hulk

This clearly shows that accidental deaths are systematically converted into riots. Method is same. If there is any incidence just try to create an agitation, violent protest will lead some more death that will be perfect platform to flare up. Add some paid protesters and make sure they create the drama.


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## PracticalGuy

Asim Aquil said:


> India is doing everything to prove it's rule is tyrannical. Now shutting down the free-press!
> 
> Ridiculous! This is so going to snowball! All signs that the Indian back is almost broken on Kashmir





Asim Aquil said:


> *Media gag makes India-controlled Kashmir newspaperless*
> 
> by Peerzada Arshad Hamid
> 
> SRINAGAR, India-controlled Kashmir, July 9 (Xinhua) -- F*or the second consecutive day Friday newspapers in India-controlled Kashmir could not hit stands following the gag on media persons here.
> *
> The journalists and photographers were prevented from covering incidents and barred from reaching offices.
> 
> Around 60 newspapers published from Srinagar city, the summer capital of India-controlled, were unable to publish their daily issues.
> 
> The restrictions have also affected the work of correspondents associated with New Delhi-based media houses and international media agencies.
> 
> "*This is worst sort of restriction that I have seen in the past twenty years. They cancelled the curfew passes issued to us. In past also they have imposed similar restrictions but we were allowed to discharge the professional duties in limited manner. Today they totally forced us to stay indoors," said Farooq Khan, President Kashmir Press Photographers Association.*
> 
> Khan said every time government orders a restriction, they have to face the wrath at the hands of police or paramilitary troopers.
> 
> Authorities have restricted the movement of journalists in the region in wake of indefinite curfew imposed in the Srinagar on Wednesday, following killing of four people including a women in police and paramilitary action.
> 
> Thousands of policemen and India's paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) personnel in riot gear have been deployed across the Srinagar city to enforce strict restrictions. These men have laid barricades and concertina on the roads and streets to restrict movement of people. The residents are confined to houses and streets and roads wore a deserted look.
> 
> The Indian army which was requisitioned Wednesday by local government to help maintain law and order stage flag march across city's roads intermittently.





Jana said:


> The Invader Indians have also suspended fuel supply from Jammu to Kashmir Valley presenting lies as pretext.
> 
> These bharti barbarians are doing everything to isolate Held Kashmir





Jana said:


> Its not your state you stater terrorists.




vow.. so much "concern" from the Pakistanis about the happenings of another country... why dont you look inside your backyard.. here you go...Please show your concern here too regarding "oppression of the free press" here you go...


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## EjazR

jade1982 said:


> I see a sinister design by the separatisthow come the violence before Shri Amarnath Yatra. Is there any religious angle to it?



No there is no religious angle to the genuine grivenaces although there might be some elements that might use religion to hijack these legitimate protests.

Even Mirwaiz Umar Farroq and Geelani has said that the pilgrims are welcome and there are no protests against the pilgrims. 

*Muslims, separatists welcome Amarnath pilgrims - Hindustan Times*


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## PracticalGuy

Punjab Assembly should withdraw anti-media resolution: Sherry

ISLAMABAD: The Punjab Assembly (PA) should withdraw the ant-media resolution, which was passed on Friday, as it was an anti-democratic move that reflected lack of tolerance amongst the legislators, former information minister Sherry Rehman said on Saturday. The Pakistan People's Party (PPP) leader said, "While legislators reserve the right to resolve what they see fit, even if they are under fire, they must not lose sight of fundamental rights and entitlements guaranteed under the constitution," she said, adding that the lawmakers should understand that despite representing the people of Pakistan, their own behaviour was never above the law. Sherry said that the media criticises state institutions worldwide, but there was no question of legislative assemblies passing resolutions against the media or the freedom of expression. The former information minister termed democracy a "hard-earned right" and said that freedom of expression was essential for the promotion of democracy. staff report

---------- Post added at 07:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:50 PM ----------

PA resolution a drone attack on media: CPNE

Daily Times Monitor

LAHORE: The Council of Pakistan Newspapers and Editors (CPNE) and other journalist organisations have strongly condemned the adoption of a resolution against the media in the Punjab Assembly, demanding that it be unconditionally withdrawn, a private TV channel reported on Saturday.

A meeting of the CPNE, the PFUJ, the PUJ and the APNEC agreed that no negotiations would be held with the Punjab government, for the resolution adopted by the Punjab Assembly was no less than a "drone attack" on the media.


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## PracticalGuy

Journalists hold demos in Balochistan

QUETTA: Journalists observed a 'black day' and held demonstrations across Balochistan on Saturday to protest against the resolution passed by the Punjab Assembly.

The Balochistan Union of Journalists and the Quetta Union of Journalists held separate demonstrations in front of the Quetta Press Club. They were carrying placards inscribed with slogans in support of their demands and chanted slogans against the Punjab government. Journalists also protested in Dera Murad Jamali, Mastung, Kalat, Sibi and Lasbela. staff report

---------- Post added at 07:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:52 PM ----------

KhUJ observes black day against resolution

Staff Report

PESHAWAR: Like other parts of the country, the Khyber Union of Journalists (KhUJ) observed a 'black day' on Saturday in Peshawar and staged a protest demonstration.

KhUJ president Syed Bukhar Shah, Pakistan Federal Union of Journalists (PFUJ) vice president Jamshed Baghwan, All Pakistan Newspaper Employees' Confederation (APNEC) general secretary Nadir Khwaja and representatives of civil society organisations participated in the rally. The protesters were holding placards and banners inscribed with slogans in favour of freedom of expression and against lawmakers with fake degrees. Addressing the protesting journalists, the KhUJ president said that media had played a vital role in the establishment and strengthening of democracy in the country.

He said that politicians had fled the country after imposition of martial law, but the journalists had boldly faced the military dictators. The PFUJ vice president and the APNEC general secretary also condemned the resolution passed by the Punjab Assembly.

Later, through a unanimous resolution, the journalists condemned the Punjab Assembly lawmakers and said they were "directly attacking the freedom of press".


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## PracticalGuy

PML-Q's CWC pledges to fight for freedom of press

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Muslim League-Quaid's (PML-Q) Central Working Committee (CWC), in its meeting on Saturday, condemned the anti-media resolution passed by the Punjab Assembly (PA) on Friday. All CWC members expressed their support for the freedom of the media and vowed to fight for it at all platforms. The PML-Q had convened the meeting to discuss the country's present political situation, issue of fake degrees, by-elections for seats of national and provincial assemblies, upcoming local government elections, price hike and increase in suicides, but the anti-media resolution of the PA dominated the proceedings of the meeting. In their speeches during the meeting, the party leaders vowed to adopt a tough stance against the fake degree holders, but the PA resolution remained the hot topic of the meeting. The CWC members also targeted the policies of the Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N). The PML-Q leaders did not leave any opportunity to slam the leadership of the PML-N. "The PML-Q is the premier opposition party and we adopt an issue-based political agenda. My party would provide hope and confidence to the nation, besides providing an alternative leadership," party Secretary General Mushahid Hussain Syed said. He said that the PML-Q had urged Prime Minister Syed Yousaf Raza Gilani in November 2009 to convene a national conference on terrorism to evolve a counterterrorism strategy. Former Punjab chief minister Chaudhry Pervez Elahi urged the masses to reject the autocratic agenda of the Punjab government. The meeting also discussed possible alliances and seat adjustments with other political parties in the upcoming by-elections. Merger of the PML-Q and the dissident group of the party was also discussed in the meeting. PML-Q's CWC also passed four resolutions condemning the PA resolution, Indian brutalities in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) and attacks on Data Darbar and worship places of Ahmedis. irfan ghauri


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## PracticalGuy

Black Day observed against Punjab Assemlby resolution


* Protest participants included politicians, lawyers, human rights activists, civil society members 
* Protesters chant slogans against PML-N, Punjab govt for trying to restrict media 
* Say theyre only doing their job by reporting about fake degrees 
* Body formed by Punjab CM meets journalists to sort out issue

By Hussain Kashif

LAHORE: A large number of politicians, lawyers, human rights activists, non-government organisations and civil society members joined a protest demonstration by journalists against the anti-media resolution passed by the Punjab Assembly on Saturday. 

The main demonstration was organised outside the Punjab Assembly, while those who joined the rally later, included Supreme Court Bar Association Secretary Raja Zulqarnain, Judicial Activism Panel leader Azhar Siddique advocate, Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaaf Information Secretary Omar Sarfraz, South Asian Partnership Executive Director Muhammad Tehseen, Labour Party Pakistan spokesman Farooq Tariq, Neelum Hussain from Simorgh, Farzana Mumtaz from the Aurat Foundation, Nasir Mumtaz from Kashf Foundation, Pakistan Muslim League-Quaid Punjab Deputy Secretary Tahir Siddique, Information Secretary Akram Chaudhry, MPAs Amna Ulfat and Samina Khawar Hayyat, leaders of the Maseeha Millat Party, Christian National Party Chairman Josef Francis, Tehreek-e-Minhajul Quran General Secretary Anwar Akhtar and many others.

The PML-Q started its rally from the Muslim League House on Davis Road to the Punjab Assembly and joined the protesting journalists. Similarly, Sunni Ittehad Council representative Safdar Shah led a separate rally from the Punjab Union of Journalists office to the Punjab Assembly, and joined the journalists. 

The journalists who participated in the protests included Lahore Press Club President Sarmad Bashir, Secretary Ziaullah Khan Niazi, PUJ President Rai Hasnain Tahir, General Secretary Rana Muhammad Azeem, Punjab Assembly Press Gallery President Zaheer Shahzad and General Secretary Shumaila Jaffery, APNEC Chairman Nasir Naqvi, CPNE President Khushnood Khan and others. 

Slogans: The protesters burnt effigies of Punjab Chief Minister Shahbaz Sharif and parliamentarians with fake degrees, and chanted slogans against the PML-Nawaz as well as the Punjab government for trying to restrict the media. They said the way the Punjab Assembly had criticised the media was extremely regrettable and nobody would buy their allegations of the media, damaging democracy and being responsible for the current situation in the country.

The journalists said the media always played a vital role in strengthening democracy and democratic institutions and had always adopted a critical stance against military dictatorships. The protesters added that the media faced critical restrictions by the dictators, adding that journalists were even jailed and publicly flogged for reporting against military dictators. 

They said the Punjab government and the PML-N had also adopted the stance of not entertaining those who betrayed the public and who had joined the assemblies by submitting fake degrees. 

Duty bound: They said they were only doing their duty by reporting about the people whose degrees had been found fake and it did not mean that they were pointing fingers at the elected government or democratic institutions. The protestors warned to continue their demonstrations until the resolution was withdrawn. 

The Punjab government has issued a handout, in which it claims that a special committee constituted by the Punjab CM, to sort out the issue of the anti-media resolution with the journalists held a meeting at the Chief Ministers Secretariat on Saturday.

The handout stated that the meeting was attended by provincial Law Minister Rana Sanaullah, Punjab Finance Minister Tanveer Ashraf Kaira, Punjab government spokesman Pervez Rashid and PML-Q dissidents group MPA Dr Tahir Ali Javed, while representatives of the journalists community included the PUJ president, senior vice president, Finance Secretary Amir Sohail, PFUJ Assistant Secretary General Waseem Shahid, APNEC Joint Secretary Rana Shafiq and executive member Rana Shehzad. In the meeting, the government and journalists decided to constitute a 10-member joint working group to resolve the issue, the meeting of which would be held soon.


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## Je suis de retour

Jana said:


> The Invader Indians have also suspended fuel supply from Jammu to Kashmir Valley presenting lies as pretext.
> 
> These bharti barbarians are doing everything to isolate Held Kashmir


when you poke your nose in the neighbours matter than you have voices raising in this forum itself from pakistani members that *NOBODY IN PAKISTAN IS CONCERNED ABOUT MOHAMMED AGENCY BLAST*

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## karan.1970

ice_man said:


> boy before you bring up undisputed territory strikes let's not bring up naxalities here shall we??? now tell me who is the Freedom Fighter??? let's stick to kashmir because if you point fingers in our direction currently we can make you point right back!!



Hey.. You dont see Indians jumping up and down talking about Azad (yeah) Kashmir issues and why it should belong to India (most of the time though). We know we have problems like Naxals and would rather focus on solving those. 

However Pakistanis on the other hand, despite having a much larger issue inside their country (that kills 50-100 people almost every week routinely) are still more concerned with whats happening outside their borders. 

Keep it up guys.. You are doing it to yourself...


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## EjazR

*The Hindu : States / Other States : Curfew relaxed in Kashmir Valley, 30 arrested*

Curfew relaxation continued in the Kashmir Valley, except in Sopore and Pulwana, on Saturday to allow people to offer special prayers on Shab-e-Mehraj festival while police picked up 30 people for allegedly instigating mobs.

Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, meanwhile, appealed to PDP chief Mehbooba Mufti to reconsider her partys decision to stay away from an all-party meeting convened by him in Srinagar on Monday to discuss the present situation.

*Hurriyat Conference Chairman Mirwaiz Umer Farooq offered prayers in historic Jama Masjid and proceeded to Zadibal where he was joined by another separatist leader Syed Hasan Budgami.*

*The two leaders led a peaceful procession for some distance. The protest march was later dispersed peacefully by police at University Gate near Hazratbal.*

Police also detained a separatist leader of Anantnag Qazi Yasir and booked him under the Public Safety Act. He was later shifted to Jammu Prison.

Some protesters came out into the streets in Qamarwari, Naaz cinema, Nowhatta and Maisuma of the city this morning but were chased away by the police. Restrictions were imposed in Maisuma after the protests.

*The four-day-old curfew was relaxed in the entire valley last night following a high-level meeting presided by Chief Minister Omar Abdullah to enable people offer special prayers overnight at the Hazratbal shrine for Shab-e-Mehraj, an important event in the religious calendar here.*

*People continued to throng the Hazratbal Shrine on Saturday to have a glimpse of a holy relic of Prophet Mohammed which is shown to people after every prayer on Shab-e-Mehraj (night of ascent). Nearly 10,000 people had taken part in three special prayers till evening.*

Inspector General Kashmir Range Farooq Ahmed said the situation was peaceful in the valley.

*There was no curfew in Anantnag and Baramulla but restrictions had to be imposed in certain parts as miscreants started pelting stones on police, he said.*

The Amarnath Yatra passed off peacefully from Anantnag to Pahalgam. So far over one lakh pilgrims have visited the holy cave shrine during last 10 days for which Jammu and Kashmir Police has made an elaborate arrangement.

*Shops and business establishments were open and traffic was plying normally in the city.*

However, in Pulwama district of south Kashmir curfew had to be imposed due to tension triggered by a media report that one person had died in police firing which was denied by authorities.

People started coming out on the streets despite the administration announcing that the news was incorrect. Before things could go out of hands, the authorities decided to impose curfew.

*Kakapora area of Pulwama district had witnessed pitched battle between mobs and security personnel last evening which resulted in injuries to 16 security personnel and five civilians.*

Curfew continued to be in force in Sopore.

Jammu and Kashmir Police, meanwhile, continued its crackdown on stone pelters and arrested 30 people since last night.

Local newspapers failed to hit the stands for the third day today despite authorities lifting the restrictions on the movement of mediapersons due to curfew in Srinagar and certain other parts of the valley and issued fresh curfew passes to them.

However, various media associations decided not to print any newspapers as they claimed that enough passes were not issued.

The last time the newspapers did not come out was in 2008 at the height of the Amarnath land agitation. Publication of dailies at that time was suspended for four days. Newspaper publication had also remained suspended for 40 days during elections in 1996.

Curfew was clamped in Srinagar on Tuesday and army moved in to assist the civil administration in maintaining law and order after escalation in violence in the Valley.


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## DesiGuy

good. but, army should be more discipline in kashmir.


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## Awesome

It was relaxed only in places where no one was opposing the Indian state. Baramulla is where they imposed the curfew and the Indian back was broken by the power of the people!


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## zagahaga

hope more come and get freedome


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## Ammyy

zagahaga said:


> hope more come and get freedome



Dude as soon as you except reality thts good for you ... that kashmir in ours .............


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## EjazR

DesiGuy said:


> good. but, army should be more discipline in kashmir.



The army was not involved in the deaths of protestors. It was the CRPF and the local J&K police. However, those involved in the fake encounter killings should be prosecuted and the CRPF and police trained in non-lethal crowd control techniques


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## S_O_C_O_M

kashmir is very soon going to break away from the tyranny of indian rule..


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## EjazR

Asim Aquil said:


> It was relaxed only in places where no one was opposing the Indian state. Baramulla is where they imposed the curfew and the Indian back was broken by the power of the people!




Well as per the IG,Baramulla had no curfew exceptin some places. 




> Inspector General Kashmir Range Farooq Ahmed said the situation was peaceful in the valley.
> 
> &#8220;There was no curfew in Anantnag and Baramulla but restrictions had to be imposed in certain parts as miscreants started pelting stones on police,&#8221; he said.





Even *peaceful *protest rallies were allowed and taken out by Mirwaiz Umar Farooq



> Hurriyat Conference Chairman Mirwaiz Umer Farooq offered prayers in historic Jama Masjid and proceeded to Zadibal where he was joined by another separatist leader Syed Hasan Budgami.
> 
> The two leaders led a peaceful procession for some distance. The protest march was later dispersed peacefully by police at University Gate near Hazratbal.



I have yet to hear about pro-independance group allowed such space in Pakistani Kashmir or Gilgit-Baltistan. As you know the Hurriyat want Pakistan to quit Kashmir as well.

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## Ammyy

S_O_C_O_M said:


> kashmir is very soon going to break away from the tyranny of indian rule..



If this dream makes you happy so you are free watch it ..... 
From last 60 years this dream is still dream


----------



## EjazR

*Govt registered case against news channel for running untrue news | TwoCircles.net*

By Wasim Khan,AIP,

Srinagar: The state Police of Jammu and Kashmir today registered a case against a Delhi based private news television channel for allegedly instigating violence in a district in South Kashmir by running untrue news about the death of a person in police firing.

An FIR was filed in main Pulwama police station against the channel and its correspondents for running wrong news about the death of a youth in police firing despite repeated assertions by police that no such incident had taken place.

*Reports said that, the news led to an angry protest in the district leading to imposition of curfew in the area again this morning besides leaving some security personnel injured in stone-pelting.
District officials had to go round the town announcing that no one was killed.*

*Later news channel apologize for running the wrong news.*

Meanwhile, Jammu and Kashmir Government will consider the option of withdrawing deployment of the army from the valley after the Martyrs' Day on July 13 and the situation as of now was well under control, state Chief Minister Omar Abdullah said today.

*"Even now the army has not been brought into the city. It is only in the periphery, that too it was deployed two days ago," he told a leading news agency of India in an interview.*

Conceding that it was the most difficult decision for him to seek the assistance of Army from the Centre, the 40-year-old Chief Minister, the youngest in the country to occupy the post, said that it was one decision that he would not like to repeat in his term in the office.


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## billi

catch all these hardline separatsit and put them in a dungeon and kashmir issue is solved


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## Awesome

It's a good sign that the curfew has been lifted - but this doesn't mean the population should be under any obligation to not protest against the murders by the Indian state.

---------- Post added at 09:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:27 AM ----------

Spoke too soon

IHK authorities ban beaming of Pak channels in north Kashmir | Kashmir Media Service

Curfew reimposed in some parts of Kashmir | The Asian Age


----------



## Awesome

Amazing tactics to silence the media. Worst form of tyranny seen anywhere!


----------



## Goodperson

Asim Aquil said:


> Amazing tactics to silence the media. Worst form of tyranny seen anywhere!



Unsubstantiated views.


----------



## Goodperson

Protest are part of Democracy as long as its peaceful just like Bharat Band was also a protest anyways its internal matter of India. 
US terms Kashmir Valley protest India&#8217;s internal matter


----------



## Imran Khan

billi said:


> catch all these hardline separatsit and put them in a dungeon and kashmir issue is solved



look at the green part of this map billi its not a dream its truth. are not we done it?


----------



## JonAsad

its like.. when we kill innocent kashmiris dont bring it on news.

where's the freeeedom of information now?


----------



## JonAsad

indianrabbit said:


> EjazR is India's superstar on PDF. How many agree?



An arguement will be worthy if the source is neutral, it creates an atmosphere of healthy unbiased conversation.

Dont you think i can give you a local Pakistani source stating otherwise?

for me rupee news = ToI, TH, dnaindia


----------



## mikkix

jonasad said:


> its like.. when we kill innocent kashmiris dont bring it on news.
> 
> where's the freeeedom of information now?



????????????????????????


----------



## nForce

karan.1970 said:


> Hey.. You dont see Indians jumping up and down talking about Azad (yeah) Kashmir issues and why it should belong to India (most of the time though). We know we have problems like Naxals and would rather focus on solving those.
> 
> However Pakistanis on the other hand, despite having a much larger issue inside their country (that kills 50-100 people almost every week routinely) are still more concerned with whats happening outside their borders.
> 
> Keep it up guys.. You are doing it to yourself...



There are a lot of sensible Pakistani people too,who really understand what is the actual need of their country.I mean the economy is facing serious level of hurdles,the political structure has been severely eroded,country is troubled with massive power shortagethe society is full of people with radical outlook,there are regions in Pakistan that may be considered as semi-autonomous pockets,and I should not even start talking about the national security.

But there are many who still proudly play the role of being more Arab than actual middle Eastern Arabs,more Palestinian than actual Palestinians,more Egyptian than actual Egyptians,more Syrians than actual Syrians,more Iraqi than the actual Iraqis,more Afghan than actual Afghans,more Chechen than actual Chechens,more Bangladeshi than actual Bangladeshis and finally more Kashmiri than the actual Kashmiris.What happens when it comes to play the role of a responsible Pakistani???

I have seen a similar post like this by another Pakistani member.I just repeated the words.

I just want to know who is that insane person in the face of Earth who thinks that they can win over Kashmir by sending 2-3 of those brainwashed,uneducated gun-wielding kids every other month???They take all the pains to cross those unforgiving heights,the snow,the blizzards,and not to mention the Indian border fencing and fortifications,come to our home territory and quickly become live targets for some shooting practice of Indian security Forces.

Tried with Operation Gibraltar and failed,tried again in 1971 and failed,tried again in 1984 and failed,tried again with numerous terrorist attacks and proxy wars and failed,tried again in 1999 during Kargil conflict and failed.
And in the mean time,the situation in the home ground kept on deteriorating.While some sane Pakistanis understood the urgency of the situation,many others just don't give a damn.
Henceforth,they continue to play their role of global citizens,irrespective of whether their screaming hardly makes any difference or not.

Just one word,regrettable.


----------



## EjazR

This particular case is for 10th July when there was no deaths. That is why the news channel apologized as well and because of the charged situation why the curfew was imposed in Pulwama area.

There was similarly another fake news of a temple being burned down in protests from a Jammu based organisation and those newspapers had their license cancelled as well.


----------



## EjazR

*I am a lousy politician, can't sell myself well: Omar Abdullah - All That Matters - Sunday TOI - Home - The Times of India
*
SRINAGAR: "I am a lousy politician". Beleaguered J&K chief minister Omar Abdullah offers the candid remark as he comes under attack for presiding over a failing administration. Even as he is criticized for appearing to be clueless about how to restore order to the sensitive state, Abdullah seems to recognize the need for course correction. 

In an exclusive interview to TOI, he admitted there was a need to be more accessible to colleagues and the people of Kashmir, who find him aloof, distant and given to unilateral decisions. He also argued strongly for the restoration of dialogue. 

He agreed that he had an image deficit as he was too "lousy" a politician to sell himself well. "I am perhaps a bad salesman. I am really bad at propaganda. I cannot sell myself, which makes me a lousy politician." He complained that he got no support from his party, the National Conference, to bridge the communication gap with the electorate. "My party is also at fault. If I am a bad salesman then the party should come up and communicate with the people." 

But the chief minister was frank in his admission that he has to "increase direct interaction with the public". He said, "Unfortunately, I prefer small-town meetings with 20 people where I can attend to their problems, than large gatherings of thousands where I give a speech and get on a helicopter and fly away." 

Even as the worsening situation raised concern the gains of the last few years would be reversed, Abdullah spoke about correctives with a sense of urgency. "I have already made up any mind to have meetings at tehsil levels so that more people can interact with me freely." 

He further said: "The biggest lesson that I have learnt from the crisis is that I will spend less time in office and more in the field." 

The young chief minister also agreed that he needed to sound sensitive to public sentiment. But he rejected criticism of frequent family weekends in Delhi. He said political dialogue must urgently be revived. 

Excerpts of interview : 

Why did you decide to ease curfew restrictions on Friday evening? 

We knew we could not justify holding of the festival, Shabi Miraj, under curfew conditions. We were counting on the better sense of the majority. Fortunately, this is what happened. We discussed the plan over the past two days and that is how things played out. 

Your decision to call for Army assistance in Srinagar hasn't gone down well with residents, and is being seen as a sign of your weakness. Do you regret the decision? 

Not at all. I had only one objective, to ensure that there are no more deaths. I didn't bother how it reflected on me politically or administratively. The raw anger that was visible should not translate into more deaths. Therefore, we discussed with our ministers, officials, corps commander who is my security advisor, and the Northern Army commander. We had worked out our strategy. Fortunately, the premise on which it was taken, turned out correct. Yesterday, (Friday) the Army did not come out, and today too, we didn't have the Army out. 

So are you asking the Army to go back? 

No, we are keeping the option available to me until the 13th when they (the separatists) have called an &#8220;Idgah chalo&#8221; protest march...we will review the decision again. 

The widespread complaint is that you lack a firm grip on the administration. And the crisis, many believe, seems to reflect that. 

We had trouble for two weeks in some parts of the cities. It cannot reflect how bad governance has been. If it indeed was bad, then protests should have spread across the state. The troubles erupted in areas where we got very low polling percentage in elections, where voting was less than 20&#37; even in the 2008 election that was considered a major success. Areas where there were larger turnouts in the past elections have been peaceful in these two weeks. 

Many accuse your government of mishandling the crisis. 

When normalcy is restored I would personally, and with others, analyze the entire situation so that we can learn from this crisis. I had a difficult situation to deal with and I took what I presumed were appropriate decisions. 

Are you worried you might be disconnected from the public? 

How can that be true when I have had more cabinet meetings in these few months this year than what past CMs may have had in an entire year? How can you accuse me of being disconnected when I have had 44 district development board meetings in the past year alone? Of course, I can increase the quantum of public interaction. That is something that has come out of it. I have to increase my direct interactions with the public. Unfortunately, I prefer small town-hall meetings with 20 people, where I can attend to their problems, than large gatherings of thousands where I give a speech and get on a helicopter and fly away. I have already made up my mind to go and have meetings at the tehsil levels, so that more people can interact with me freely. 

There are complaints that you have surrendered yourself to a coterie. 

How can anyone accuse me of (surrendering to) a coterie when I am dealing directly with all my senior officials and cabinet members? I don't deal with the DG or chief secretary through a coterie. I have a telephone where I have a button for each of my ministers. They also have to only press a button to talk to me. All of them also have my mobile numbers. 

If this is the reality, why is there such a buzz in this city and among your senior officials about your failings as an administrator? 

Perhaps I am a bad salesman. I am really bad at propaganda. I cannot sell myself, which makes me a lousy politician. Here people do one thing and sell 20 claims. I do 20 things and sell just one. My party is also at fault. If I am a bad salesman, then the party should come up and communicate with the people. The biggest lesson that I have learned from the crisis is that I will spend less time in office and more in the field. 

If you look at the street protests and violence, you see a larger frustration among the people about the government's inability to bring lasting peace. Is that something you agree with? 

Both the state and centre have realized in the last 15 days that the absence of political dialogue is not healthy for the state. We have to keep making efforts to reach out to those away from the political process. Many mistook the 2008 election as the end of the problem. No, it is not; it is one of the means to finding the end to the problem. Look at the present crisis: the root of the problem also lies in the absence of such effort...Some initiatives need to be taken. Of course, governance I need to handle. I need to improve delivery, public contact and public perception. 

Are you frightened by the scale of vested interest in strife &#8212; from stone-throwers to policemen &#8212; that have emerged from two decades of militancy? 

Yes, I am surprised. We all know there are vested interests. It is easy to make the mistake of seeing everything in black and white in J&K. Not all protests are instigated by the LeT. It is a mixture of both. How we handle protests determines what happens the next day. 

There are allegations about your too-frequent weekends in Delhi with your family? 

I put in long hours at work from Monday to Saturday. I travel around a lot. When things are fine, nobody remembers my weekend trip to Delhi. Did the trouble arise because I was in Delhi? I haven't left the state for a month now. If my absence is the problem then there should not be the present problem. The way I work I can understand issues in five minutes what someone else may take half an hour. Often, the longer you sit in a meeting is reflected as one's capability. I do not agree with that. In 18 months of my tenure, I have had a couple of bad weeks this year, and a couple of bad weeks last year. If those two bad weeks are going to be used to assess me, then I can't help it. That is politics, I suppose.


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## mikkix

Media is now becomes the part of all conspiracies..


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## EjazR

I would have hoped that a better title would be that *"Indian citizens also condemn HR abuse in Kashmir"* because thats what this thread really is about. I would request members to refrain from going offtopic and talking about militants and independence movements either in Kashmir or Pakistan. It would be thoughtful if the mods would change the title of the thread as indicated as well but that is their prerogative. 

This open letter published in many papers also lists some important points that the J&K govt. and the Home ministry in particular should look into asap.

--------

To, 
National Human Rights Commission, 
National Commission for the Protection of Children, 
Office of the Chief Justice of India, 
Ministry of Home Affairs, 
Chief Minsiter of J & K,
Planning Commission,

Dear Sir,

We, the undersigned, as a vigilant group of citizens submit our concerns regarding the prevailing situation in Jammu and Kashmir and urge your immediate assistance in ensuring that the Government of India and the state government takes immediate action to prevent further loss of life and property and initiate an impartial investigation into the recent killings in the region. 
The political situation in Jammu and Kashmir has worsened over the last few weeks, which has in turn strengthened the existing culture of impunity in the region. The current crisis also has serious humanitarian consequences. 
On June 29, 2010 at least three persons were killed in indiscriminate firing and excessive use of force by the police in Anantnag district of the Kashmir Valley. Four persons were killed in firing on 5-6 July, 2010. It is estimated that more than 15 civilians have been killed and several others injured in the unprecedented use of force by the J & K police and paramilitary, especially the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) in a span of two-three weeks. Several of those killed were children: Tufail Matoo (17), Javid Ahmad Malla (18), Shakeel Ahmad Ganai (14), Firdous Ahmed Kakroo (17), Asif Hasan Rather (9), Ishtiyaq Ahmad Khanday (15 from Anantnag), Imtiyaz Ahmad Itoo (17, from Anantnag), Muzaffar Ahmad Bhat (17), and Abrar Ahmad (17). Several protest marches organized across the Valley in response to the killings were met with indiscriminate firing by the security forces deployed in the region. We condemn the recent killings of children in Kashmir. 
Over the past few days, the response by the security forces has been such that, on available accounts, even ambulances have not been spared. Media reports state that at three places, including at Safakadal and at Sangam on the Srinagar- Jammu highway, the CRPF fired on ambulances. Moreover, due to the imposition of curfew in the Valley, paramedics have been unable to reach hospitals as a result of which the existing hospital staff have been working over 36 hour shifts to tend to the injured. Even journalists with valid curfew passes have also been attacked. On June 28, 2010 a group of journalists belonging to local and national media organizations were attacked by the CRPF in the Qamarwari area of Srinagar. 
Yet again, the recent events highlight the impunity with which the security forces in the region continue to operate. One of the emblematic cases that highlight the legal impunity is that of the enforced disappearance and murder of noted human rights activist, Jalil Andrabi by the Rashtriya Rifle, an army unit deployed in the Valley. In March 1996, Andrabi was illegally detained by security force personnel while returning from work. Three weeks later his mutilated body was found on the banks of the River Jhelum. International and national pressure culminated in the filing of a charge sheet by the police against the five accused in the Sessions Court, Budgam. However, the main accused in the Andrabi murder, Major Avatar Singh remains free to this day. The case of Jalil Andrabi is merely one example of the ongoing human rights violations. Many local and international human rights organizations, including Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and Physicians for Human Rights have documented the systematic violations of human rights by state and non-state actors and the entrenched culture of impunity. 
The promulgation of special laws in the state of Jammu and Kashmir provides legal immunity to the armed forces. Under the Armed Forces Special (Jammu and Kashmir) Special Powers Act, 1990, armed forces personnel of the rank of a commissioned officer, warrant officer, non commissioned officer or of an equivalent rank have been granted extraordinary powers such as the authority to shoot and kill suspected lawbreakers. Further, the Act in requiring prior sanction for prosecution acts as shield for impunity for the non-prosecution of security force personnel involved in egregious human rights violations, including enforced disappearances and torture. Thus far, sanction for prosecution has been granted only in a handful of cases, and perpetrators remain free. Therefore, in the least the procedure for granting sanction for prosecution should be at least be made more expeditious, effective, and equitable. 
In this context it is even more necessary to seek accountability of the actions of the security forces in the region. Under applicable national and international law, the killing of children and attacks against hospital and medical infrastructure is strictly prohibited. 
In fact, in its Eleventh Plan, the Planning Commission of India outlined special measures for women in from conflict zones within India, which would imply that there are conflict zones within India. The ongoing situation so far mentioned is in contravention of International law, humanitarian law as well as fundamental guarantees provided by the Indian Constitution, including the right to life (Article 21). As concerns the former, we seek to bring to you attention principles enshrined in Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions; the International Covenants for Civil and Political Rights, 1976, and the Additional Protocols thereto; the Convention of the Rights of the Child, 1990 and its Optional Protocol; and the UN Security Council Resolution 1882 (2009) on the protection of children. 
Regarding constitutional and national laws and adjudicatory policies, we may here refer to the following: 
* The guidelines prescribed by the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) on police action (of 12 May 2010) and in the police manual should be respected 
* The Supreme Court decisions in D.K. Basu v. State of West Bengal (AIR 1997 SC 610) and Rajesh Gulate v. Government of Delhi (SCC 7 2002 129) 
*The Supreme Court of India guidelines to check arbitrary police action and ensure punishment of perpetrators. 
Given the use of unprecedented force, we urge that the security forces exercise restraint and refrain from firing at unarmed protestors. The Central and state governments must ensure that arbitrary and disproportionate use of force against civilians ends immediately and an impartial investigation is initiated into the killing of civilians. *We urge the Government of India and the Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir, Shri Omar Abdullah to take immediate steps to: 
&#8226;	Put an immediate end to the violence perpetrated by the security forces 
&#8226;	Prevent attacks against civilian infrastructure, including hospitals and ambulances 
&#8226;	Ensure that the security forces respect the principle of proportionality while responding to civilian protests 
&#8226;	Initiate an independent and impartial investigation into the killings of peaceful protestors, several of whom were children 
&#8226;	Initiate an inquiry into instances of attacks on ambulance services 
&#8226;	Ensure that inquiries are conducted in a time bound manner and the report is made public 
&#8226;	Initiate legal and punitive action against persons who are found responsible for the killings of civilians 
&#8226;	Establish an independent inquiry commission to investigate the allegations of serious human rights violations, including enforced disappearances, killings, torture, rape and sexual violence in the region 
&#8226;	Invite and permit the relevant UN Rapporteurs, UN Special Representatives and members of the UN Working Group on Enforced Disappearance to investigate the allegations of human rights abuses in the region 
&#8226;	Initiate a general debate involving members of the Kashmiri civil society and others on impunity and AFSPA, and possible mechanisms to respond to the prevailing impunity *

Constitutionally Yours,

List of signatories 
1.	Professor Upendra Baxi, Emeritus Professor of Law, University of Delhi 
2.	Dr Mallika V. Sarabhhai 
3.	Mrinalini V. Sarabhai 
4.	Navsharan Singh 
5.	Bhagat Oinam, Jawahar Lal Nehru University 
6.	Alternative Law Forum 
7.	The Patna Collective 
8.	Uma Chakravarti, Historian 
9.	Anuradha Bhasin, Kashmir Times 
10.	Prabodh Jamwal, Kashmir Times 
11.	Laxmi Murthy, Consulting Editor, Himal SouthAsia 
12.	Sahba Hussain 
13.	Shahrukh Alam 
14.	Trideep Pais, Advocate 
15.	Tenzing Choesang, Advocate 
16.	Tahseen Alam 
17.	Anouhita Majumdar, Senior Journalist 
18.	Anant Nath, The Caravan 
19.	Vasuman Khandelwal, Advocate 
20.	Bipin Aspatwar, Advocate 
21.	Shabnam Hashmi, Anhad 
22.	Ashok Agrwaal, Advocate 
23.	Prof. Sitaram Kakarala, CSCS 
24.	Ved Bhasin, Chairman Kashmir Times group of publications 
25.	Rajeev Dhavan 
26.	Kanak Mani Dixit, Himal South Asia 
27.	Professor Sushil Khanna, Indian Institute of Management, Kolkata 
28.	Rajashri Dasgupta, Journalist 
29.	Ram Puniyani, All India Secular Forum 
30.	Jashodhara Dasgupta, SAHAYOG, Lucknow 
31.	Warisha Farasat, Advocate 
32.	Jyoti Punwani, Journalist, Mumbai 
33.	K. Lalitha, Researcher, Hyderabad 
34.	Nitya Vasudevan, Research Scholar 
35.	Randhir Singh, Professor (retd.), Delhi University 
36.	Priyaleen Singh 
37.	Abid Mir 
38.	Areet Kaur 
39.	Anand Bala 
40.	Shahla Raza 
41.	Hafeez Khan 
42.	Paray Hilal 
43.	Dr. Pritam Singh 
44.	Dr. Meena Dhandha, Philospher 
45.	Dinesh Sharma, Bangalore 
46.	Dr Atul Sood, Jawaharlal University 
47.	Gursharan Singh, Convenor against Democratic Front Against Operation Green Hunt 
48.	Chakraverti Mahajan, Doctoral Student, Punjab University 
49.	Kavita Pai 
50.	Sheba George, Sahrwaru 
51.	Prof. Ranabir Samaddar, Director, Mahanirban Calcutta Research Group 
52.	.Rita Manchanda, Safhr 
53.	Zakia Jowher, Action Aid 
54.	Roop Rekha Verma 
55.	Pushkar Raj, General Secretary PUCL 
56.	Binu Mathews,Editor, Counter Currents 
57.	Indian Social Action Forum (INSAF) 
58.	Dr. Kaveri Rajaraman 
59.	Partho Sarathi Ray, Sanhati 
60.	Pyare Shivpuri 
61.	Humra Quraishi, Freelance columnist 
62.	Haley Duschinski, Assistant Professor of Anthropology, Department of Sociology and Anthropology, Ohio University 
63.	Sahana Basavapatna, Advocate 
64.	Sukla Sen, EKTA (Committee for Communal Amity), Mumbai 
65.	Zainab Bawa, Ph.D. student and independent researcher 
66.	Chetna Kaul, filmmaker 
67.	Manish Kumar Tipu, music composer 
68.	Javed Naqi, Senior Research Fellow, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi 
69.	PUCL (Andhra Pradesh) 
70.	Harsh Kapoor, South Asia Citizens Web 
71.	Naga People's Movement for Human Rights (NPMHR) 
72.	Badri Raina 
73.	Manasi Pingle, Filmmaker 
74.	Pushpa Achanta (Independent writer, Bangalore) 
75.	Navaid Hamid, Member National Integration Council 
76.	Aamir Bashir, Actor and film-maker 
77.	Dipti Gupta, Professor, Media Studies. 
78.	Santanu Chakraborty (Student - Christ University) 
79.	Madhuri, Jagrit Adivasi Dalit Sangathan, Madhya Pradesh 
80.	Rosemary Dzuvichu, Nagaland University,Kohima 
81.	Vidyarthi Yuvjan Sabha 
82.	Uma V Chandru, Peace and Human Rights Activist, Bangalore 
83.	Advocate Narjees, Human Rights Law Network, Kashmir unit 
84.	AIPWA 
85.	Shoma, CAVOW 
86.	Geeta Charusivam, Social Activist Tamil Nadu 
87.	Arati Chokshi, Member &#8211; PUCL (Bangalore- Karnataka) 
88.	Dr Ritu Dewan, Professor, University of Mumbai 
89.	Dr Lena Ganesh, Mumbai 
90.	Pooja Sharma, cinematographer 
91.	Sajid Iqbal Khandey 
92.	Vrijendra 
93.	Sundera Babu 
94.	Aamer Trambu, Reporter, Press TV Iran 
95.	Saamer Mansoor, Student, University of Texas, Dallas 
96.	Nashwa Mansoor, Student of Medicine, Sangli 
97.	Dr Ben Rogaly, University Lecturer, UK 
98.	Meher Engineer, Teachers & Scientists Against Maldevelopment 
99.	Asish Gupta, Journalist, New Delhi 
100.	Ashok Choudhary, National Forum of Forest People and Forest Workers (NFFPFW) 
101.	Madhu Bhaduri, Ambassador of India (Retd) 
102.	Bipin Kumar, AHUTTI, Patna 
103.	Women Against Militarization and State Violence 
104.	The Other Media 
105.	Subir Banerjee, Distinguished Professor Emeritus, University of Minnesota 
106.	Ram Bhat, Maraa, Bangalore 
107.	J. Devika, Associate Professor, CDS, Trivandrum, Kerala 
108.	Priya Jain
109.	Jawed Naqvi, journalist
110) Gautam Navlakha
111) Harsh Mander
112) Sukhman Dhami, ENSAAF
113) Kannan Srinivasan
114) Prof. Nandini Sundar, Delhi University
115) Dr Usha Zacharias, Associate Professor, Westfield State College,
Massachusetts, USA
116) Feroze Mithiborwala, Bharat Bachao Andolan, National President
117) Anand Chakerverti
118) Shafat N Ahmed
119) Gagan Rism
120) Kabir Arora
121) Gazala Raza
122) Neelakshi Suryanarayan


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## Patriot

nForce said:


> *Slogan of Indian Armed Forces stationed in Kashmir​*
> 
> *Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations
> It's our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
> 
> 
> - Indian Armed Forces *




yeah here are some arranged meetings
Two Indian soldiers killed on volatile Kashmir border - Monsters and Critics
Army colonel killed in encounter in North Kashmir - dnaindia.com
Army major, soldier killed in Kashmir gunfight-Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times
Indian soldier killed by Kashmir gunfire | Asian Correspondent
BBC News - India army officer killed in Kashmir clash

India soldier killed in Kashmir grenade blast - Worldnews.com
plenty of meetings arranged no?


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## nForce

Patriot said:


> yeah here are some arranged meetings
> Two Indian soldiers killed on volatile Kashmir border - Monsters and Critics
> Army colonel killed in encounter in North Kashmir - dnaindia.com
> Army major, soldier killed in Kashmir gunfight-Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times
> Indian soldier killed by Kashmir gunfire | Asian Correspondent
> BBC News - India army officer killed in Kashmir clash
> 
> India soldier killed in Kashmir grenade blast - Worldnews.com
> plenty of meetings arranged no?



I can very well see that you take certain amount of pleasure in the news of Indian security personnel killed in action.I can retort back by posting some news about scores of Pakistani security personnel killed in action during counter terrorist operations in FATA,but I never will.It is so because, my morality is not as degraded as yours.I know the cause for which they died.*Thats the difference between you and me*.
Bloody hell,Pakistani Army even refused to accept the bodies of their fallen officers of Northern Light Infantry after the Kargil War.*Now thats a difference between the modus operandi of Armed forces of your country and mine.*

*Pakistan refuses to take even officers' bodies*

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## indushek

Indian members whatever u say our neighbours will never agree because they have been indoctrinated well and only if India dishes out kashmir to them will they be silent (for now) . After that they will have concern for other "brothers" in UP or Bihar or other places and then they begin to ask for their freedom. I know thats what will be happening, the reason for this as posted by senior members 100's of times "There was no India before and there should not be in future".


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## ice_man

indushek said:


> Indian members whatever u say our neighbours will never agree because they have been indoctrinated well and only if India dishes out kashmir to them will they be silent (for now) . After that they will have concern for other "brothers" in UP or Bihar or other places and then they begin to ask for their freedom. I know thats what will be happening, the reason for this as posted by senior members 100's of times "There was no India before and there should not be in future".




thank you clearer shows who is "INDOCTRINATED" you sound like bharat verma! you should try applying for a job in NDTV


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## Dr.Evil

moha199 said:


> Then buddy boy what are you doing on PDF, You should also mind your own business! as telling Pakistanis. lmao you guys are just nothing but so called mature people but in reality you are just 5 year old. This is my candy no its mine! This is a think tank forum we talk about stuff and it has nothing to do what i should care or you should care. Act mature please



What do you mean Act Mature - Is it another word for accept the definition we give and everyone has to accept it. - Brilliant.

Now coming to the topic - Weren't pakistani's telling Indians not to comment about the discrimnation of Hindus in Pakistan.
Weren't pakistani's telling Indians not to comments about the Killings in balochistan by pak army and PAF.

Have atleast the same set of standards for everyone before you start commenting about others.

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## prototype

Areesh said:


> NDTV sux



from when,when they shown some videos which is a classic example of bastards working for bastards to create tensions

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## Icarus

indushek said:


> Indian members whatever u say our neighbours will never agree because they have been indoctrinated well and only if India dishes out kashmir to them will they be silent (for now) . After that they will have concern for other "brothers" in UP or Bihar or other places and then they begin to ask for their freedom. I know thats what will be happening, the reason for this as posted by senior members 100's of times "There was no India before and there should not be in future".



Indoctrinated ? Son, what have been watching ? You desperately need to lay off India TV, I wasn't sent to one of those Propaganda, Brainwashing schools you guys believe it is mandatory for all Pakistanis to send their children to.................And if we wanted land, we would have also kept the cry for Junagarh and Hyderabad alive, they also wanted to join Pakistan but India surrounded both states, imposed a complete lock down and those people had to accede to India not because of nationalist feeling but because of hunger...........


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## Ammyy

Kakgeta said:


> Indoctrinated ? Son, what have been watching ? You desperately need to lay off India TV, I wasn't sent to one of those Propaganda, Brainwashing schools you guys believe it is mandatory for all Pakistanis to send their children to.................And if we wanted land, we would have also kept the cry for *Junagarh and Hyderabad alive, they also wanted to join Pakistan* but India surrounded both states, imposed a complete lock down and those people had to accede to India not because of nationalist feeling but because of hunger...........

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## Icarus

Dr.Evil said:


> Weren't pakistani's telling Indians not to comments about the Killings in balochistan by pak army and PAF.



Huh ? Care to name a few of these poor guys ? See the problem is you guys watch Kabul Express and every one believes he is now the ultimate authority on proxy wars and covert ops involving Pakistan.
Now, let me get to the point, army can not enter a province with the intention to engage hostile forces unless and until article 246(Sparklingway could correct me if i'm wrong, it's his field) is evoked in parliament, which with respect to Balochistan has not been evoked therefore there are no active military ops in Balochistan. This means that the only force operating is F.C Balochistan, which is supposed to be there at all times, not just during conflict, and since they do not have the power to request air strikes means that PAF is also not active in Balochistan..................

---------- Post added at 04:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:40 PM ----------




DRDO said:


>



Laughing smilies don't cut it kid..........................If you don't know this, then I guess you went to one of those state sponsored brainwash schools people think we go to, or that you haven't finished your GCEs yet.....................


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## owcc

Kakgeta said:


> Huh ? Care to name a few of these poor guys ? See the problem is you guys watch Kabul Express and every one believes he is now the ultimate authority on proxy wars and covert ops involving Pakistan.
> Now, let me get to the point, army can not enter a province with the intention to engage hostile forces unless and until article 246(Sparklingway could correct me if i'm wrong, it's his field) is evoked in parliament, which with respect to Balochistan has not been evoked therefore there are no active military ops in Balochistan. This means that the only force operating is F.C Balochistan, which is supposed to be there at all times, not just during conflict, and since they do not have the power to request air strikes means that PAF is also not active in Balochistan..................
> 
> good to know yu guys watch bollywood congrats
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:40 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Laughing smilies don't cut it kid..........................



good to know yu guys watch bollywood congrats


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## Dr.Evil

Kakgeta said:


> Huh ? Care to name a few of these poor guys ? See the problem is you guys watch Kabul Express and every one believes he is now the ultimate authority on proxy wars and covert ops involving Pakistan.
> Now, let me get to the point, army can not enter a province with the intention to engage hostile forces unless and until article 246(Sparklingway could correct me if i'm wrong, it's his field) is evoked in parliament, which with respect to Balochistan has not been evoked therefore there are no active military ops in Balochistan. This means that the only force operating is F.C Balochistan, which is supposed to be there at all times, not just during conflict, and since they do not have the power to request air strikes means that PAF is also not active in Balochistan..................




You just did not answer my question, but just beating around.


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## Icarus

owcc said:


> good to know yu guys watch bollywood congrats



Well, our movies are mostly crap nowadays, so Indian movies are the next best thing.......


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## Icarus

Dr.Evil said:


> You just did not answer my question, but just beating around.



I was correcting your misconception.....as for your question, well, I'm just an ordinary member, that question is better suited to mods and webbie................


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## EjazR

*Curfew lifted in Kashmir, prohibitory orders in some parts - India - The Times of India*

SRINAGAR: After nearly a week, curfew was on Sunday lifted in the entire Kashmir valley in view of the situation remaining generally peaceful but prohibitory orders have been imposed in Baramulla, Anantnag and Pulwama districts besides some parts of Srinagar, officials said.

The situation was generally peaceful barring a few incidents where small groups of people came out and shouted slogans and threw stones at the security forces, they said.

"Curfew has been lifted from the valley. However, there are prohibitory orders in some parts of the city as well as in some other districts," Inspector General Kashmir Region, Farooq Ahmad told PTI.

*The authorities relaxed curfew in Sopore in North Kashmir from 7 AM to 11 AM and later extended the relaxation period indefinitely as there was no untoward incident. Shops opened there despite a strike call given by hardline Hurriyat Conference led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani.*

Some youths came out in Maisuma and Nowhatta areas of Srinagar city but they were chased away by the police.

*Orders banning assembly of people have been enforced in Pulwama, Anantnag and Baramulla districts. Besides, downtown areas of Srinagar, Maisuma, Batamaloo and Nowhatta too are under such restrictions.*

Local newspapers failed to hit the stands for the fourth day this morning despite authorities lifting restrictions on movement of mediapersons. Some media associations have alleged that adequate number of curfew passes had not been issued. Media persons had also staged a demonstration yesterday.

Authorities continued to clamp down on the stone-pelters and picked up another 12 people including Farooq Ahmed of Narbal who was alleged to be the main instigator of violence in Sopore.

In the morning, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah and his father Farooq Abdullah offered prayers at the graveyard of Begum Akbar Jahan, wife of Sheikh Abdullah, on her death anniversary. They were accompanied by a few hundred people at the graveyard on the banks of Dal Lake in Hazratbal.

The Chief Minister also held a meeting with MLAs and MLCs of the coalition government.

Curfew was clamped in Srinagar on Tuesday and army was called out to assist the civil administration in maintaining law and order after escalation in violence in the valley.

Omar has convened an all-party meeting in Srinagar tomorrow to discuss the present situation. The invitation was extended to all 12 recognised political parties and groups.

Peoples Democratic Party and Jammu and Kashmir Panthers Party have so far said they will stay away from the meeting dubbing it as a "purposeless exercise".


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

_Source_

The Dogra rule, followed by Indian occupation in 1947, is a bleak chapter in the history of Jammu and Kashmir. The Dogra rule, which continued from 1846-1947, is considered as the gloomiest period. Indian armed forces occupied a major part of Jammu and Kashmir on October 27, 1947 that is continuing to date.
The Indian troops pursued the policy of suppression in a systematic manner to reduce the overwhelming Muslim majority in occupied Jammu and Kashmir. To achieve this objective Indian troops started the process of mass massacre. There are plenty of events and evidences to support this gory fact.

*1931*
July 13:The people of Kashmir had been raising their voice against the Dogra usurpation of their land and as a result they faced brutal consequences. On July 13, 1931, a large number of Kashmiris gathered in front of the Srinagar central jail, at a time when the trial of a youth Abdul Qadeer accused of involvement in a case of agitation, was in progress inside the jail. The objective was to demonstrate solidarity with the young man. As the time for obligatory prayer approached a young Kashmiri stood for Azan (Call for the prayer) and the Dogra police opened fire on him, and he got martyred. Thereby, another youth took the place of the martyred young man and started the Azan. He too was shot dead. In this way 22 Kashmiris embraced martyrdom in their efforts to complete the Azan.

*1947*
August 26: In June 1947, people of Poonch had launched a no-tax campaign against the heavy taxation of Maharaja. To curb the agitation, Maharaja Hari Singh, the last Dogra ruler of the state, ordered the use of brute military force. On August 26 the protesters were confronted by the Dogra-armed forces. The Dogra troops opened bran-gun fire on the huge crowd of 5,000 civilians, martyring and wounding hundreds of them.

October-November: Maharaja Hari Singh fled from Srinagar to Jammu on October 26th 1947, as the liberation activists were poised in Srinagar's suburbs to capture the city. On reaching Jammu, he issued orders to his troops and police besides the Hindu extremist groups, to kill Muslims found anywhere. The Muslims were asked to assemble in parade ground in Jammu so that they would be driven to Pakistan in lorries. While on their way, on October 20, 1947, eight thousand Muslims were massacred at Malatank Jammu. On October 22, 1947 at least 14000 Muslims were massacred at Saniya Jammu and 15,000 Muslims were gunned down near the bridge at Akhnoor.

On November 5 and 6, 1947, more than 100 lories, loaded with women, children and old men were taken into the wilderness of Kuthua forests. Hindu extremists and armed gangs were let loose on these innocent people and an unparallel butchery was perpetrated, killing thousands of them. Women were raped, molested and their valuables looted. All these bloodsheds were taking place in full view of the Indian army, which had by that time occupied a major part of the state. In another act of butchery, a large gathering of 25000 Muslims, in Miran Sahib and Ranbir Singhpora, were machine-gunned.

During migration to Pakistan in 1947, nearly 300,000 people were massacred in cold
British daily "the London Times" wrote on October 10, 1947 in a report from its special correspondent in India that the Maharaja, under his own supervision, got assassinated 237,000 Muslims, using military forces in Jammu area. The editor of "Statesman" Ian Stephen, in his book "Horned Moon" wrote that till the end of autumn 1947, more than 200,000 Muslims were assassinated.

Right from 1947, the fury of mass killings is going on unabated. Kashmiris suffered massacres in 1965 and 1971. Since 1989, India increased its acts of brutalities and people were killed in mass groups. Some of the savage events are as under.

*1990*
January 8:Firing at various places in Srinagar city, 17 people were killed. Enquiry ordered by then Governor Jagmohan. No outcome appeared.
January 15: In Handwara town, the Indian army and paramilitary forces shot dead 17 unarmed civilians including one woman when troops opened unprovoked fire on peaceful protesters.
*
January 21*: 55 innocent civilians were killed in the localities of Basantbagh and Gawkadal in Srinagar city by CRPF troops when more than 20,000 people took to the streets, defying curfew.

*January 22*: The Indian army and paramilitary forces resorted to unprovoked firing at Alamghari Bazar Srinagar and killed many unarmed civilians. The people had come out unarmed to protest against the military killings at Gaw Kadal in Srinagar.
January 25: 26 civilians were shot dead in Handwara town of Kupwara district. The township was set afire by BSF after the latter was panicked by a bang. Some of the slain persons including women were roasted alive.

*March 1*: In order to halt massive demonstrations by the people, who were to submit a memorandum to United Nations Military Observers Group on India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP), Indian army opened fire at Tengpora bypass and Zakoora crossing in Srinagar, killing 21 and 26 demonstrators, respectively.

*May 21*: Seventy persons were put to death by CRPF troops near Islamia College Srinagar. The unarmed civilian mourners were carrying the dead body of late Mirwaiz Molvi Muhammad Farooq, prominent liberation leader and father of APHC chairman, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq. More than three hundred people were injured. Five women, one of them pregnant, were killed. Even minors were not spared. The forces did not spare even the coffin-bearers. The dead body of late Mirwaiz was also shot at.

*August 6*: The troops besieged Mashali Mohalla in Srinagar, raided the houses of local inhabitants and killed innocent civilians. In this incident more than two-dozen people were brutalized, of whom nine died on the spot.

*August 10*: BSF cordoned off the whole area of Pazipora, Kupwara. The male inmates were ordered to gather in a park for identification parade. The locals objected to let ladies stay at their homes without being accompanied by any male members. Later the forces, in absence of male members, entered the houses and raped and molested a number of ladies. By hue and cry of the ladies, the male members tried to rush to their respective homes in order to rescue the ladies from the clutches of the armed forces. But the troops fired on the unarmed civilians of the locality and killed 25 of them on the spot.

*September 11*: A civil passenger bus, carrying about fifty persons, was intercepted by the BSF troops. Passengers were fired upon. 22 died on the spot. The bus was set on fire due to which eight persons got burnt alive.

*October 01*: The BSF personnel in Handwara town of Kupwara district started indiscriminate firing on the unarmed civilians, who were busy in marketing activities, killing 20 of them on the spot.

*1991*
January 19: The personnel of 42-CRPF opened indiscriminate fire, killing 11 civilians in Magarmalbagh, Srinagar. Most of the victims were waiting for bus and being a busy place, most of the passers-by received bullet shots and died on the spot.
January 30: In Achabal Islamabad, the Indian armed forces opened indiscriminate fire, killing seven innocent persons.

*March 11*: At Rakhi Haigam, Sopore, in Baramullah district, Indian armed forces started indiscriminate firing, killing six civilians, including Manzoor Ahmad Dar aged only 12 years.

*March 16*: The Indian troops cordoned the area in Pishwari Trehgam in Kupwara district. At that time about 12 persons were offering prayers in a mosque within the cordoned area. The forces directed the worshipers to come out of the Mosque but they could not come out as they were engaged in the prayers. The forces entered into the Mosque and started firing. The Imam (Leader of the prayers) did not break the prayers. He was shot in his head. Other persons were dragged in the compound of the Mosque and six more persons were shot dead.

*May 05*: At Khayam, Khanyar in Sriangar, the troops fired indiscriminately on the pedestrians due to which, five persons including a girl, Aisha, aged three years were killed.

*May 8*: In Pir Dastgeer, Khanyar locality of down town Srinagar, troops of CRPF, BSF's 2nd and 60th Bn opened fire on thousands of people who were assembled to bury some martyred Kashmiris. 18 civilians were killed. In this incident, one infant aged two years, and his father were also killed.

*June 11*: The CRPF troops opened indiscriminate fire, having been frightened by the sound of a tire burst, leaving 32 civilians killed in the densely populated area of Chotabazar, Srinagar. The killed included, shopkeepers, passers-by, old persons, women and children.

*September 03*: At Safanagri and Nelora in Pulwama district, the armed forces fired on unarmed civilians and more than 23 got killed.

*1992*
*April 2*: In Aloosa village of Bandipore tehsil of Baramullah district, the villagers were kept confined to the village limits for the whole day by the Indian troops, while those out for fishing were fired upon. At least five boatmen were killed in the firing. Many bodies were recovered from the Wular Lake as they had been made to sink by tying heavy stones to their limbs.

*April 13*: During early hours of the day, BSF troops charged into the area, comprising Mohalla Hajama, Talian, Syed Sultanpora, Mahrajpora, and Chinkipora, started indiscriminate firing which resulted in killing of 13 civilians including one woman.

*July 2*: There was a tyre burst of a moving vehicle, which created a panic in the crowded market of Lal Chowk Srinagar. In response the CRPF troops, posted at Hari Singh High Street, fired indiscriminately, killing six civilians.

*July 6*: The BSF men subjected Ishbar locality in the outskirts of Srinagar to indiscriminate firing and at least 7 civilians were killed.

*July 13*: Army personnel entered the village of Nasrullahpora, adjacent to Budgam, and started indiscriminate firing, killing ten innocent people.

*August 15*: In Taj Mohalla of Tral in Pulwama district, BSF troops killed 6 civilians in cold blood. One of them was burnt alive.
October 2: 10 civilians were killed in Handwara town of Kupwara district by BSF troops.

*December 12*: Indian troops killed 7 civilians in Kishtwar area of Doda district.

*1993*
*January 6*: 94 BSF-Bn personnel ran amuck, killing 57 civilians, mostly roasted alive, when they set ablaze 37 residential and 35 commercial structures at Sopore in Baramullah district.

*April 10*: 47 innocent Kashmiris were burnt alive when BSF set afire, most of the Lal Chowk, Srinagar, destroying 59 houses, 190 shops, 53 godowns and 2 office complexes.
*
July 01*: In Baba Reshi area of Baramullah district, the troops started indiscriminate firing and killed 9 civilians who had come to the shrine.

*July 30*: In Hangubutch, Pulwama district 12 civilians were killed and 100 injured. A magisterial probe was announced but never completed.
*
August 01*: Sub inspector Ajmer Singh of BSF, 60Bn along with three of his subordinates, killed a couple Abdul Rashid Dar and Hajra after barging into their residence in Daribal Srinagar. Their critically injured son Hilal succumbed to wounds in hospital. After thousands of people took to the streets in anti-India demonstration, the police and army resorted to firing, killing 10 of them.
*
August 14*: Indian secret agents dragged out passengers from a bus on Sarthal link road in Kishtawar, Doda and sprayed them with bullets, killing 14 civilians.
*October 22*: Troops of BSF 7Bn opened fire on a procession in Bijbehara town of Islamabad district, killing 50 and injuring 100 civilians.
*
November 20*: At Aadipora, in Sopore area of Baramullah district, the BSF personnel opened fire and killed five persons including a woman.
*
November 24*: In Sangrama in Baramullah district, the BSF troops fired indiscriminately and killed seven unarmed civilians.
*
December 22*: At Bulbul Nowgam in Shangas area of Islamabad district, the Indian troops fired indiscriminately, killing six civilians.
*
1994*
*January 24*: Indian troops killed 18 Kashmiris in Kupwara.
*
May 10*: In Bandipora BSF troops, during crack-down, arrested 9 persons in presence of the locals, took them to a military camp in Bandipora where they were killed and their dead bodies were handed over to their relatives.
*
1995*
*February 10*: BSF opened fire in narrow business street, in Gad Kocha, Srinagar, killing 6 shopkeepers and injuring 38 others.

*1996
January 5*: Indian armed agents massacred 15 Kashmiris, 10 of them belonging to one family, in Barshala village of Doda district.
June 8: In Kamlari village of Doda district, Indian armed agents killed eight civilians.
*
1997
March 20*: Seven civilians were killed in Sangrampura (Budgam).
*
April 7*: A group of Indian secret agents swooped on Sanghrampora village, in Beerwa outskirts in Budgam district, and shot dead seven Kashmiris.
*
April 18*: 27 civilians were killed in Prankote in Udhampur district in Jammu region.
September 19: In mortar shelling by BSF, 11 villagers were killed in remote village of Arin in Baramullah district.
*
1998
January 26*: Indian agents swooped Wandhama village of Ganderbal tehsil in Srinagar district and massacred 26 Kashmiris.
*
June 19*: 25 civilians were killed in Chapnari area Of Doda district in Jammu region.
*June 28*: In Madwa, Doda 9 villagers were massacred by 26-Rashtriya Rifles, on the Eid (Muslim festival) day.
*
July 28*: 16 civilians were killed in two villages of Doda District in Jammu region.
*August 3*: Twenty civilians were killed in Sailain village of Surankote, Poonch. The dead included seven children.
*
August 8*: 35 labourers were killed in Kalaban on Jammu-Himachal Pradesh border.

*1999
February 20*: Four civilians were killed at Muraputta-Rajouri, nine at Barlyara-Udhampur and seven at Bllala-Rajouri in Jammu.

*February 20*: In Baljaralan hamlet of Udhampur district, Indian armed agents killed 10 civilians. Apparently, the same group reappeared in Mora Pota in Budhal belt, and killed 4 members of a family.
*
June 29*: Indian troops and their agents dragged out 17 civilians, including 5 women and 7 children, in twin hamlets of Morha Bichai and Sahotri in Poonch and killed them.
June 30: Fifteen labourers were killed in Anantnag district of south Kashmir.
*
2000
February 28*: Five civilians were killed near qazigund in Anantnag district of Kashmir.
*
March 17*: Indian secret agencies killed 7 truck drivers near a BSF camp at Qazigund in Islamabad district.
*
March 20*: 35 civilians were massacred at Chatisinghpora in Anantnag.
*
March 24*: Five innocent civilians, missing since March 24, 2000, were killed in custody and subsequently roasted by army at Brakpora in Islamabad district.
*
March 30*: 7 protestors were killed by SOG troops near Pathirbal in Islamabad district, who were demanding dead bodies of Brakpora massacre.
*
May 14*: Five teenagers, arrested from Sopore, were killed by Indian troops in Tangdar area of Kupwara district.
*
August 1*: 35 Amarnath Yatris (pilgrims) were killed by Indian secret agencies and CRPF troops at Pahalgam in Islamabad district.
*
August 1*: 31 civilians were massacred at Pahalgam in Anantnag.
*
August 1*: 27 labourers were gunned down in Qazigund and Achabal in Anantnag.
*
August 2*: Seven people of one family were killed in frontier district of Kupwara in North Kashmir.
*
August 2*: 11 civilians were killed in Doda district of Jammu.
*
2001
February 03*: Indian secret agencies killed 7 Sikhs at Mahjoornagar in Srinagar.
*
February 10*: At Kotchatwal in Bhudal area of Rajouri district, 12 civilians including 6 kids and 4 women were killed by Indian troops and their secret agencies.

*March 17*: Eight people were massacred near Atholi in Doda.
*
March 21*: At Mandi in Poonch district, the Indian troops used helicopters and gun ships and killed 10 Kashmiris.

*March 31*: At Doru, Islamabad, 7 Kashmiri drivers were killed by Indian troops.

*July 21*: 13 civilians were killed at Sheshnag in Anantnag.

*July 22*: 12 people were massacred in Cheerji and Tagood in Doda district of Jammu.
*
August 4*: 15 villagers were killed in Ludder-Sharotid Har area of Doda.
*
August 6*: Indian agents killed 7 civilians in Sajjar village of Atholi, in Kistwar tehsil of Doda district.
*
December 8*: 10 unarmed civilians, including women and children, were killed in the indiscriminate military firing in Baramullah.
*
2002
January 6*: 6 civilians were killed at Luddu and Ramsu,Doda.

*January 20*: 11 civilians were killed at Behra, Poonch.

*January 21*: Indian troops killed 14 persons including 8 children of 3 families, at Salwa village in Maindher area of Poonch in Rajouri district.

*February 16*: 8 civilians were killed at Nirala. Rajouri.
*
May 14*: 36 civilians were killed at Kaluchak, Jammu.
*
July 13*: 28 civilians were massacred at Kasimpura in Jammu.
*
August 5*: Nine pilgrims were killed in Nuwan Pehalgam in Islamabad district.

*2003
March 24*: 24 civilians were massacred including 11 women and 2 children at Nadimerg village of Pulwama.

*October 22*: Seven members of a family were shot dead when armed Indian agents opened indiscriminate firing at a wedding ceremony in Domail area of Doda district.
*
2004
April 5*: Seven civilians were killed at Pahalgam in Islamabad.

*2006
May 01*: 35 civilians were killed at Basantgarh in Udhampur and Kulhaang in Doda district. »

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## Ganga

Azad Kashmir said:


> July 13:The people of Kashmir had been raising their voice against the Dogra usurpation of their land and as a result they faced brutal consequences. On July 13, 1931, a large number of Kashmiris gathered in front of the Srinagar central jail, at a time when the trial of a youth Abdul Qadeer accused of involvement in a case of agitation, was in progress inside the jail. The objective was to demonstrate solidarity with the young man. As the time for obligatory prayer approached a young Kashmiri stood for Azan (Call for the prayer) and the Dogra police opened fire on him, and he got martyred. Thereby, another youth took the place of the martyred young man and started the Azan. He too was shot dead. In this way 22 Kashmiris embraced martyrdom in their efforts to complete the Azan.
> 
> *1947*
> August 26: In June 1947, people of Poonch had launched a no-tax campaign against the heavy taxation of Maharaja. To curb the agitation, Maharaja Hari Singh, the last Dogra ruler of the state, ordered the use of brute military force. On August 26 the protesters were confronted by the Dogra-armed forces. The Dogra troops opened bran-gun fire on the huge crowd of 5,000 civilians, martyring and wounding hundreds of them.
> 
> October-November: Maharaja Hari Singh fled from Srinagar to Jammu on October 26th 1947, as the liberation activists were poised in Srinagar's suburbs to capture the city. On reaching Jammu, he issued orders to his troops and police besides the Hindu extremist groups, to kill Muslims found anywhere. The Muslims were asked to assemble in parade ground in Jammu so that they would be driven to Pakistan in lorries. *While on their way, on October 20, 1947, eight thousand Muslims were massacred at Malatank Jammu. On October 22, 1947 at least 14000 Muslims were massacred at Saniya Jammu and 15,000 Muslims were gunned down near the bridge at Akhnoo*r.
> 
> *On November 5 and 6, 1947, more than 100 lories, loaded with women, children and old men were taken into the wilderness of Kuthua forests. Hindu extremists and armed gangs were let loose on these innocent people and an unparallel butchery was perpetrated, killing thousands of them. Women were raped, molested and their valuables looted. All these bloodsheds were taking place in full view of the Indian army, which had by that time occupied a major part of the state. In another act of butchery, a large gathering of 25000 Muslims, in Miran Sahib and Ranbir Singhpora, were machine-gunned*.
> 
> During migration to Pakistan in 1947, nearly 300,000 people were massacred in cold
> British daily "the London Times" wrote on October 10, 1947 in a report from its special correspondent in India that the Maharaja, under his own supervision, got assassinated 237,000 Muslims, using military forces in Jammu area. The editor of "Statesman" Ian Stephen, in his book "Horned Moon" wrote that till the end of autumn 1947, more than 200,000 Muslims were assassinated.


Where is the evidence ?Any one can write anything but what matters is the evidence which can back it up.Besides why are you not writing abt the raiders also termed "Ghazi" who were send into Kashmir in 1947 from NWFP.They looted , killed and also raped several thousand women in Kashmir.


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## Murshad

Hope a day will come when their miseries come to end


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Ganga said:


> Where is the evidence ?Any one can write anything but what matters is the evidence which can back it up.Besides why are you not writing abt the raiders also termed "Ghazi" who were send into Kashmir in 1947 from NWFP.They looted , killed and also raped several thousand women in Kashmir.



Please read my post and not the title then make posts direceted at me. I did not write that list, I got it from the source as linked at the top of the 1st post.


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## Ganga

My dear Lord Mountbatten, 

I have to inform Your Excellency that a grave emergency has arisen in my State and request the immediate assistance of your Government. As Your Excellency is aware,the State of Jammu and Kashmir has not acceded to either the Dominion of India or Pakistan. Geographically my State is contiguous wit h both of them. Besides, my State has a common boundary with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and with China. In their external relations the Dominion of India and Pakistan cannot ignore this fact. I wanted to take time to decide to which Dominion I should accede or whether it is not in the best interests of both the Dominions and of my State to stand independent, of course with friendly and cordial relations with both. I accordingly approached the Dominions of India and Pakistan to enter into standstill agreement with my State. The Pakistan Government accepted this arrangement. The Dominion of India desired further discussion with representatives of my Government. I could not arrange this in view of the developments indicated below. ln fact the Pakistan Goernment under the standstill agreement is operating the post and telegraph system inside the State. Though we have got a standstill agreement with the Pakistan Government, lhe Govemment permitted a steady and increasing strangulation of supplies like food, salt and petrol to my State. 

*Afridis, soldiers in plain clothes, and desperadoes with modern weapons have been allowed to infiltrate into the State, at first in the Poonch area, then from Sialkot and finally in a mass in the area adjoining-Hazara district on the Ramkote side. The result has been that the limited number of troops at the disposal of the State had to be dispersed and thus had to face the enemy at several points simultaneously, so that it has become difficult to stop the wanton destruction of life ad property and the looting of the Mahura power house, which supplies electric current to the whole of Srinagar and which has been burnt. The number of women who have been kidnpped and raped makes my heart bleed. The wild forces thus let loose on the State are marching on with the aim of capturing Srinagar, the summer capital of my government, as a first step to overrunning the whole State.The mass infiltration of tribesman drawn from distant areas of the North-West Frontier Province, coming regularly in motortrucks, using the Manwehra-Mazaffarabad road and fully armed with up-to-date weapons, cannot possibly be done without the knowledge of the Provincial Govemment of the North-West Frontier Province and the Government of Pakistan. Inspite of repeated appeals made by my Government no attempt has been made to check these raiders or to stop them from coming into my State. In fact, both radio and the Press of Pakistan have reported these occurences. *The Pakistan radio even put out the story that a provisional government has been set up in Kashmir. The people of my State, both Muslims and non-Muslims, generally have taken no part at all. 

With the conditbns obtaining at present in my State and the great emergency of the situation as it exists, I have no option but to ask for help from the Indian Dominion. Naturally they cannot send the help asked for by me without my State acceding to the Dominion of India. I have accordingly decided to do so, and I attach the instrument of accession for acceptance by your Government. The other alternative is to leave my state and people to free booters. On this basis no civilised government can exist or be maintained. 

This alternative I will never allow to happen so long as I am the ruler of the State and I have life to defend my country. I may also inform your Excellency's Government that it is my intention at once to set up an interim government and to ask Sheikh Abdullah to carry the responsibilities in this emergency with my Prime Minister. 

If my State is to be saved, immediate assistance must be available at Srinagar. Mr. V.P. Menon is fully aware of the gravity of the situation and will explain it to you, if further explanation is needed. 

In haste and with kindest regards, 

Yours sincerely, 

Hari Singh 
October 26, 1947
Kashmir: Legal Documents

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## EjazR

*India calls off Kashmir curfew - CENTRAL/S. ASIA - Al Jazeera English*

A curfew imposed on most of Indian-controlled Kashmir has been lifted, despite clashes between demonstrators and security forces in the summer capital of Srinagar.

Separatists called a general strike on Sunday to protest against Indian rule of the predominantly Muslim region and civilian deaths during confrontations with authorities.

Thousands of security forces patrolled some residential areas in the capital, asking people to stay indoors, witnesses said.

Shops and businesses remained shut and some restrictions were imposed in some areas of the city. The region's nearly 60 newspapers were unable to publish for a third day.

"There are prohibitory orders in some parts of the city [Srinagar] as well as in some other districts, but curfew has been lifted from the valley," Muzaffar Ahmad, a police official, told the Reuters news agency.

"The situation generally remained peaceful across Kashmir valley, barring a few incidents of stone pelting."

The Indian government originally introduced the curfew on Wednesday.

*'We want freedom'*

During a 24-hour suspension of the curfew on Saturday, called to allow residents to celebrate the annual Miraj-un-Nabi festival, which commemorates the Prophet Muhammad's night journey to the heavens, clashes broke out in three areas of Srinagar.

Indian forces used tear gas and batons to disperse rock-throwing protesters.

Elsewhere in the city, thousands of demonstrators shouting "We want freedom" and "Blood for blood," followed Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, a separatist leader, through the streets.

"Our civil disobedience and peaceful marches will continue until India withdraws its military and paramilitary soldiers from populated areas," Farooq, the chairman of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, said, according to The Associated Press news agency.

Residents said security forces have killed 15 people during recent rallies, and the government sent in the army to quell the protests last week.

The Indian army had not been used for crowd control since major street demonstrations two decades ago.

*Divided region*

The tension in the Himalayan region - divided between Indian and Pakistani control - was reminiscent of the late 1980s, when protests against Indian rule sparked an armed conflict that eventually killed more than 68,000 people, mostly civilians.

Recent strikes and the curfew have badly affected tourism in India's Kashmir.

Many tourists have left the valley and the ones who remain face shortages of food and other basic amenities.

At present, tourist hubs like the Dal Lake are completely deserted.

"In the days to come, no tourist will come to Srinagar," Muhammad Asif, a travel agent, said.

"The kind of unrest we have here, there will be no tourism left in Srinagar. Not only this year, even in the coming years nobody will come here if such a situation persists.

India and Pakistan have fought two wars over Kashmir.

India regularly accuses Pakistan of sending separatist fighters over the heavily militarised frontier to stir up trouble and has blamed the current protests on Pakistan-based groups bent on destabilising India, a charge Islamabad denies.


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## GUNNER

*Reply from Lord Mountbatten to Maharaja Hari Singh*


_My dear Maharaja Sahib, 


Your Highness' letter dated 26 October 1947 has been delivered to me by Mr. V.P. Menon. In the circumstances mentioned by Your Highness, my Government have decided to accept the accession of Kashmir State to the Dominion of India. *In consistence with their policy that in the case of any State where the issue of accession has been the subject of dispute, the question of accession should be decided in accordance with the wishes of the people of the State, it is my Government's wish that, as soon as law and order have been restored in Kashmir and its soil cleared of the invader, the question of the State's accession should be settled by a reference to the people.* 

Meanwhile, in response to Your Highness' appeal for military aid, action has been taken today to send troops of the Indian Army to Kashmir, to help your own forces to defend your territory and to protect the lives, property, and honour of your people. My Government and I note with satisfaction that Your Highness has decided to invite Sheikh Abdullah to form an interim Government to work with your Prime Minister. 

Mountbatten of Burma 
October 27, 1947 _

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## schneider

GUNNER said:


> *Reply from Lord Mountbatten to Maharaja Hari Singh*
> 
> 
> _My dear Maharaja Sahib,
> 
> 
> Your Highness' letter dated 26 October 1947 has been delivered to me by Mr. V.P. Menon. In the circumstances mentioned by Your Highness, my Government have decided to accept the accession of Kashmir State to the Dominion of India. *In consistence with their policy that in the case of any State where the issue of accession has been the subject of dispute, the question of accession should be decided in accordance with the wishes of the people of the State, it is my Government's wish that, as soon as law and order have been restored in Kashmir and its soil cleared of the invader, the question of the State's accession should be settled by a reference to the people.*
> 
> Meanwhile, in response to Your Highness' appeal for military aid, action has been taken today to send troops of the Indian Army to Kashmir, to help your own forces to defend your territory and to protect the lives, property, and honour of your people. My Government and I note with satisfaction that Your Highness has decided to invite Sheikh Abdullah to form an interim Government to work with your Prime Minister.
> 
> Mountbatten of Burma
> October 27, 1947 _


 
I doubt the Authenticity of This Document

but even if its fake/original, the problem is, Invader has settled itself there, that was the reason for the uprising of terrorism in 1980's when millions of Original inhabitants and non muslims were displaced. So unless until they leave Kashmir, original inhabitant and non muslims return to Kashmir, plebiscite cannot be given.
Finish!!!!


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## Bang Galore

*Speech Of the Hon'ble Sheikh Mohammed Abdullah in the Constituent Assembly.* 
_Legal Document No 122_






Sheikh Abdullah




Sheikh Abdullah addressing a gathering. 


(Extract)


We must remember that our struggle for power has now reached its successful climax in convening of this Constituent Assembly. It is for you to translate the vision of New Kashmir into a reality, and I would remind you of its opening words, which will inspire our labors: 

"We the people of Jammu & Kashmir, Ladakh and the Frontier regions, including Poonch and Chenani Illaqas commonly known as Jammu and Kashmir State in order to perfect our union in the fullest equality and self-determination to raise ourselves and our children forever from the abyss of oppression and poverty, degradation and superstition, from medieval darkness and ignorance, into the sunlit valleys of plenty, ruled by freedom, science and honest toil, in worthy participation of the historic resurgence of the peoples of East, and the working masses of the world, and in determination to make this our country a dazzling gem on the snowy bosom of Asia, to propose and propound the following constitution of our State.' 
This was passed at the 1944 session of the National Conference in Srinagar. Today, in 1951, embodying aspirations, men and women from the four corners of the state in this Constituent Assembly have become the repository of its sovereign authority. This Assembly, invested with the authority of a constituent body, will be the fountain-head of basic laws laying the foundation of a just social order and safeguarding the democratic rights of all the citizens of the State. 
You are the sovereign authority in this State of Jammu and Kashmir; what you decide has the irrevocable force of law. The basic democratic principle of sovereignty of the nation embodied ably in the American and French Constitutions, is once again given shape in our midst. I shall quote the famous words of Article 3 of the French Constitution of 1791: 

"The source of all sovereignty resides fundamentally in the nation...Sovereignty is one and indivisible, inalienable and imprescriptable. It belongs to the nation." 
We should be clear about the responsibilities that this power invests us with. In front of us lie decisions of the highest national importance which we shall be called upon to take. Upon the correctness of our decisions depends not only the happiness of our land and people now, but the fate as well of generations to come. 
What then are the main functions that this Assembly will be called upon to perform? 

One great task before this Assembly will be to devise a Constitution for the future governance of the country. Constitution-making is a difficult and detailed matter. I shall only refer to some of the broad aspects of the Constitution, which should be the product of the labors of this Assembly. 

Another issue of vital import to the nation involves the future of the Royal Dynasty. Our decision will have to be taken both with urgency and wisdom, for on that decision rests the future form and character of the State. 

The Third major issue awaiting your deliberations arises out of the Land Reforms which the Government carried out with vigor and determination. Our "Land to the tiller" policy brought light into the dark homes of the peasantry; but, side by side, it has given rise to the problem of the landowners demand for compensation. The nation being the ultimate custodian of all wealth and resources, the representatives of the nation are truly the best jury for giving a just and final verdict on such claims. So in your hands lies the power of this decision. 

Finally, this Assembly will after full consideration of the three alternatives that I shall state later, declare its reasoned conclusion regarding accession. This will help us to canalize our energies resolutely and with greater zeal in directions in which we have already started moving for the social and economic advancement of our country. 

To take our first task, that of Constitution-making, we shall naturally be guided by the highest principles of the democratic constitutions of the world. We shall base our work on the principles of equality, liberty and social justice which are an integral feature of all progressive constitutions. The rule of law as understood in the democratic countries of the world should be the cornerstone of our political structure. Equality before the law and the independence of the judiciary from the influence of the Executive are vital to us. The freedom of the individual in the matter of speech, movement and association should be guaranteed: freedom of the press and of opinion should also be features of our Constitution. I need not refer in great detail to all those rights and obligations, already embodied in New Kashmir,which are Integral parts of democracy which has been defined as 'an apparatus of social organization wherein people govern through their chosen representatives and are themselves guaranteed political and civil liberties". 

You are no doubt aware of the scope of our present constitutional ties with India. We are proud to have our bonds with India, the goodwill of those people and government is available to us in unstinted and abundant measure. The Constitution of India has provided for a federal union and in the distribution of sovereign powers has treated us differently from other constituent units. With the exception of the items grouped under Defense Foreign Affairs and Communications in the instrument of Accession , we have complete freedom to frame our Constitution in the manner we like. In order to live and prosper as good partners in a common endeavor for the advancement of our peoples, I would advise that, while safeguarding our autonomy to the fullest extent so as to enable us to have the liberty to build our country according to the best traditions and genius of our people, we may also by suitable constitutional arrangements with the Union establish our right to seek and compel Federal cooperation and assistance in this great task, as well as offer our fullest cooperation and assistance to the Union. 

Whereas it would be easy for you to devise a document calculated to create a frame work of law and order, as also a survey of the duties and rights of citizens. It will need more arduous labor to take concrete decisions with regard to the manner in which we propose to bring about the rapid economic development of the State and more equitable distribution of our national income among the people to which we are pledged. Our National Conference avows its faith in the principal that there is one thing common to men of all castes and creeds, and that is their humanity. That being so, the one ailment which is ruthlessly sapping the vitality of human beings in Jammu & Kashmir is their appalling poverty, and if, we merely safeguard their political freedom in solemn terms, it will not affect their lives materially unless it guarantees them economic and social justice. New Kashmir contains a statement of the objectives of bur social policy. It gives broadly a picture of the kind of life that we hope to make possible for the people of Jammu & Kashmir and the manner in which the economic organization of the country will be geared to that purpose. These ideals you will have to integrate with the political structure which you will devise. 

The future political set-up which you decide upon for Jammu & Kashmir must also take into consideration the existance of various sub-national groups in our State. Although culturally diverse history has forged an uncommon unity between them; they all are pulsating with the same hopes and aspirations, sharing in each others joys and sorrows . While guaranteeing this basic unity of the State, our constitution must not permit the concentration of power and privilege in the hands of any particular group or territorial region. It must afford the fullest possibilities to each of these groups to grow and flourish in conformity with their cultural characteristics without detriment to the integral unity of the State or the requirements of our social and economic policies. 

Now let us take up an issue of basic importance which involves the fundamental character of the State itself. As an instrument of the will of a self-determining people who now become sovereign in their own right, the Constituent Assembly will now re-examine and decide upon the future of the present ruling dynasty, in respect of its authority. 

It is clear that this dynasty can no longer exercise authority on the basis of an old discredited Treaty. During my trial for sedition in the "Quit Kashmir'' movement, I had clarified the attitude of my party when I said: 

"The future constitutional set-up in the State of Jammu & Kashmir cannot derive authority from the old source of relationship which was expiring and was bound to end soon. The set-up could only rest on the active will of the people of the State, conferring on the head of the State the title and authority drawn from the true and abiding source of sovereignty, that is the people." 
On this occasion, in 1946, I had also indicated the basis on which an individual could be entrusted by the people with the symbolic authority of a Constitutional Head: 
"The State and its Head represent the constitutional circumference and the center of this sovereignty respectively, the Head of the State being the symbol of the authority with which the people may invest him for the realization of their aspirations and the maintenance of their rights". 
In consonance with these principles, and in supreme fulfillment of the people's aspirations, it follows that a Constitutional Head of the State will have to be chosen to exercise the function which this Assembly may chose to entrust to him. 
So far as my Party is concerned, we are convinced that the institution of monarchy is incompatible with the spirit and needs of modern times which demand an egalitarian relationship between one citizen and another. The supreme test of a democracy is the measure of equality of opportunity that it affords to its citizens to rise to the highest point of authority and position. In consequence monarchies are fast disappearing from the world picture, as something in the nature of feudal anachronisms. In India, too, where before the partition, six hundred and odd Princes exercised rights and privileges of rulership, the process of democratization has been taken up and at present hardly ten of them exercise the limited authority of constitutional heads of States. 

After the attainment of complete power by the people, it would have been an appropriate gesture of good will to recognize Maharaja Hari Singh as the first constitutional Head of the State. But I must say with regret that he has completely forfeited the confidence of every section of the people. His in capacity to adjust himself to changed conditions and his antiquated views on vital problems constitute positive disqualifications for him to hold the high office of a democratic Head of the State. Moreover, his past actions as a ruler have proved that he is not capable of conducting himself with dignity, responsibility and impartiality. The people still remember with pain and regret his failure to stand by them in times of crisis, and his incapacity to afford protection to a section of his people in Jammu. 

Finally we come to the issue which has made Kashmir an object of world interest, and has brought her before the forum of the United Nations. This simple issue has become so involved that people have begun to ask themselves after three and a half years of tense expectancy. "Is there any solution ?" Our answer is in the affirmative. Everything hinges round the genuineness of the will to find a solution. If we face the issue straight, the solution is simple. 

*The problem may be posed in this way. Firstly, was Pakistan's action in invading Kashmir in 1947 morally and legally correct, judged by any norm of international behavior ? Sir Owen Dixon's verdict on this issue is perfectly plain. In unambiguous terms he declared Pakistan an aggressor. Secondly, was the Maharajah's accession to India legally valid or not ? The legality of the accession has not been seriously questioned by any responsible or independent person or authority. 
*
These two answers are obviously correct. Then where is the justification of treating India and Pakistan at par in matters pertaining to Kashmir ? I*n fact, the force of logic dictates the conclusion that the aggressor should withdraw his armed forces, and the United Nations should see that Pakistan gets out of the State.* 

In that event, India herself, anxious to give the people of the State a chance to express their will freely, would willingly cooperate with any sound plan of demilitarization. They would withdraw their forces, only garrisoning enough posts to ensure against any repetition of that earlier treacherous attack from Pakistan. 

These two steps would have gone a long way to bring about a new atmosphere in the State. The rehabilitation of displaced people, and the restoration of stable civic conditions would have allowed people to express their will and take the ultimate decision. 

We as a Government are keen to let our people decide the future of our land in accordance with their own wishes. If these three preliminary processes were accomplished, we should be happy to have the assistance of international observes to ensure fair play and the requisite conditions for a free choice by the people. 

*Instead invader and defender have been put on the same plane.* Under various garbs, attempts have been made to sidetrack the main issue. Sometimes against all our ideals of life and way of living attempts divide our territories have been made in the form of separation of our state religionwise, with ultimate plans of further disrupting territorial integrity. Once an offer was made to police our country with Commonwealth forces, which threatens to bring in Imperial control by the back door. Besides the repugnance which our people have however, to the idea of bringing foreign troops on their soil, the very presence of Commonwealth troops could have created suspicions among our neighbors that we were allowing ourselves to be used as a base of possible future aggression against them. This could easily have made us into a second Korea. 

The Cabinet Mission Plan has provided for three courses which may be followed by the Indian States when determining future affiliations. A State can either accede to India or accede to Pakistan, but failing to do either, it still can claim the right to remain independent. These three alternatives are naturally open to our State. While the intention of the British Government was to secure The privileges of the Princes, the representatives of the people must have the primary consideration of promoting the greatest good of the common people. Whatever steps they take must contribute to the growth of a democratic social order wherein all invidious distinctions between groups and creeds are absent. Judged by this supreme considerations, what are the advantages and disadvantages of our State's accession to either India or Pakistan or of having and independent Status. 

As a realist I am conscious that nothing is all black or all white, and there are many facts to each of the propositions before us. I shall first speak on the merits and demerits of the State's accession to India. In the final analysis, as I understand it, it is the kinship of ideals which determines the strength of ties between two States. The Indian National Congress has consistently supported the cause of the State's peoples' freedom. The autocratic rule of the Princes has been done away with and representative government have been entrusted with the administration. Steps towards democratization have been taken and these have raised the people's standard of living, brought about much-needed social reconstruction, and above all built up their very independence of spirit. Naturally, if we accede to India there is no danger of a revival of feudalism and autocracy. Moreover, during the last four years the Government of India has never tried to interfere in our internal autonomy this experience has strengthened our confidence in them as a democratic State. 

*The real character of a State is revealed in its Constitution. The Indian Constitution has set before the country the goal of secular democracy based upon justice, freedom and equality for all without distinction. This is the bedrock of modern democracy*. This should meet the argument that the Muslims of Kashmir cannot have security in India, where the large majority of the population are Hindus. Any unnatural cleavage between religious groups is the legacy of Imperialism, and no modern State can afford to encourage artificial division if it is to achieve progress and prosperity. *The Indian Constitution has amply and finally repudiated the concept of a religious State, which is a throw back to medievalism, by guaranteeing the equality of rights of all citizens irrespective of their religion, color caste and class. 
*
*The national movement in our State naturally gravitates towards these principles of secular democracy. *The people here will never accept a principle which seeks to favor the interests of one religion or social group against another. This affinity in political principles, as well as in past association, and our common path of suffering in the cause of freedom, must be weighed properly while deciding the future of the State. 

We are also intimately concerned with the economic wellbeing of the people of this State. As I said before while referring to constitution-building, political ideals are often meaningless unless linked with economic plans. As a State, we are concerned mainly with agriculture and trade. As you know, and I have detailed before, we have been able to put through our "land to the tiller" legislation and make of it a practical success. Land and all it means is an inestimable blessing to our peasants who have dragged along in servitude to the landlord and his allies for centuries without number. We have been able under present conditions to carry these reforms through, are we sure that in alliance with landlord-ridden Pakistan, with so many feudal privileges intact, that the economic reforms of ours will be tolerated. We have already heard that news of our Land Reforms has traveled to the peasants of the enemy-occupied area of our State, who vainly desire like status, and like benefits. In the second place, our economic welfare is bound up with our arts and crafts. The traditional markets for these precious goods for which we are justly known all over the world, have been centered in India. The volume of our trade, in spite of the dislocation of the last few years, shows this. Industry is also highly important to us. Potentially we are rich in minerals, and in the raw materials of industry; we need help to develop our resources. India, being more highly industrialized than Pakistan, can give us equipment, technical services and materials. She can help us too in marketing. Many goods also which it would not be practical for us to produce here for instance sugar, cotton, cloth, and other essential commodities, can be got by us in large quantities from India. It is around the efficient supply of such basic necessities that the standard of the man in-the-street depends. 

I shall refer now to the alleged disadvantages of accession to India. 

To begin with, although the land frontiers of India and Kashmir are contiguous, an all-weather road-link as dependable as the one we have with Pakistan does not exist. This must necessarily hamper trade and commerce to some extent particularly during the snowy winter months. But we have studied this question, and, with improvements in modern engineering, if the State wishes to remain with India the establishment of an all-weather stable system of communication is both feasible and easy. Similarly, the use of the State rivers as a means of timber transport is impossible if we turn to India, except in Jammu where the river Chenab still carries logs to the plains. In reply to this argument, it may be pointed out that accession to India will open up possibilities of utilizing our forest wealth for industrial purposes and that, instead of lumber, finished goods, which will provide work for our carpenters and laborers, can be exported to India where there is a ready market for them. Indeed in the presence of our fleets of timber carrying trucks, river-transport is a crude system which inflicts a loss of some 20% to 35%, in transit. 

Still another factor has to be taken into consideration. Certain tendencies have been asserting themselves in India which may in the future convert it into a religious State wherein the interests of Muslims will be jeopardized. This would happen if a communal organization had a dominant hand in the Government, and Congress ideals of the equality of all communities were made to give way to religious intolerance. The continued accession of Kashmir to India should, however, help in defeating this tendency. From my experience of the last four years, it is my considered judgment that the presence of Kashmir in the Union of India has been the major factor in establishing relations between the Hindus and Muslims of India. Gandhiji was not wrong when he uttered words before his death which paraphrase, "I lift up mine eyes into the hills, from whence cometh my help." 

As I have said before, we must consider the question of accession with all open mind, and not let our personal prejudices stand in the way of a balanced judgment. I will now invite you to evaluate the alternative of accession to Pakistan. 

*The most powerful argument which can be advanced in her favor is that Pakistan is a Muslim State, and, big majority of our people being Muslims the State must accede to Pakistan. This claim of being a Muslim State is of course only a camouflage. It is a screen to dupe the common man, so that he may not see clearly that Pakistan is a feudal State in which a clique is trying by these methods to maintain itself in power. In addition to this, the appeal to religion constitutes a sentimental and a wrong approach to the question. Sentiment has its own place in life but often it leads to irrational action. Some argue, as supposedly natural corollary to this, that on our acceding to Pakistan our annihilation or survival depends. Facts have disproved this, right-thinking men would point out that Pakistan is not an organic unity of all the Muslims in this sub- continent. It has on the contrary, caused the dispersion of the Indian Muslims for whose benefit it was claimed to have been created. There are two Pakistans at least a thousand miles apart from each other. The total population of Western Pakistan which is contiguous to our State, is hardly 15 million. While the total number of Muslims, resident in India is as many as 40 million. As one Muslim is as good as another, the Kashmiri Muslims if they are worried by such considerations should choose the forty millions living in India. 

Looking at the matter too from a more modern political angle religious affinities alone do not and should not normally determine the political alliance of States. We do not find a Christian bloc, a Buddhist bloc, or even a Muslim bloc, about which there is so much talk nowadays in Pakistan. These days economic interests and a community of political ideals more appropriately influence the policies of States. 

We have another important factor to consider, if the State decides to make this the predominant consideration. What will be the fate of the one million non-Muslims now in our State ? As things stand at present, there is no place for them in Pakistan. Any solution which will result in the displacement or the total subjugation of such a large number of people will not be just or fair, and it is the responsibility of this House to ensure that the decision that it takes on accession does not militate against the interests of any religious group. 

As regards the economic advantages. I have mentioned before the road and river links with Pakistan. In the last analysis, we must however remember that we are not concerned only with the movement of people but also with the movement of goods and the linking up of markets. In Pakistan there is a chronic dearth of markets for our products. Neither, for that matter, can she help us with our industrialization, being herself industrially backward. 

On the debit side we have to take into account the reactionary character of her politics and State policies. In Pakistan we should remember that the lot of the States' subjects has not changed and they are still helpless and under the heel of their Rulers, who wield the same unbridled power under which we used to suffer here. This clearly runs counter to our own aspirations for freedom. 

Another big obstacle to a dispassionate evaluation of her policies is the lack of a constitution in Pakistan. As it stands at present, this State enjoys the unique position of being governed by a Constitution enacted by an outside Parliament which gives no idea whatsoever of the future shape of civic and social relations. It is reasonable to argue that Pakistan cannot have the confidence of a freedom-loving and democratic people when it has failed to guarantee even fundamental rights of its citizens. The right of self-determination for nationalities is being consistently denied and those who fought against Imperialism for this just right are being suppressed with force. We should remember Badshah Khan and his comrades who laid down their all for freedom, also Khan Abdus Samad Khan and other fighters, in Baluchistan. Our national movement in the State considers this right of self-determination inalienable, and no advantage, however great, will persuade our people to forego it. 

The third course open to us has still to be discussed. We have to consider the alternative of making ourselves an Eastern Switzerland, of keeping aloof from both States but having friendly relations with them. This might seem attractive in that it would appear to pave the way out of the present deadlock. To us as a tourist country it could also have certain obvious advantages, but in considering independence we must not ignore practical considerations. Firstly, it is not easy to protect sovereignty and independence in a small country which has not sufficient strength to defend itself on our long and difficult frontiers bordering so many countries. Secondly we must have the goodwill of all our neighbors. Can we find powerful guarantors among them to pull together always in assuring us freedom from aggression? I would like to remind you that from August 15 to October 22, 1947 our State was independent and the result was that our weakness was exploited by the neighbor with invasion. What is the guarantee that in future too we may not be victims of a singular aggression. *

I have now put the pros and cons of the three alternatives before you. It should not be difficult for men of discrimination and patriotism gathered in this Assembly to weigh all these in the scales of our national good and pronounce the well being of the country lies in the future.

Legal Document No 122--Speech Of the Hon'ble Sheikh Mohammed Abdullah in the Constituent Assembly.

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## Dr.Evil

You have wasted a lot of time in compiling the propaganda list.

India is acting against the paid terrorists, and those terrorists are getting what they deserve.

We have no sympathy for them or their supporters.


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## schneider

Massacre in kashmir 

Three Hundred Thousand Kashmiris were displaced by Pakistani Militants. And they are still not able to return to Kashmir.

I can produce 10 times of your data where Pakistan is responsible for the massacre in Kashmir and all over India.


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## Prometheus

*2001
February 03: Indian secret agencies killed 7 Sikhs at Mahjoornagar in Srinagar.*

well we all know from where these Indian secret agents came


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Inqilabi appeals world leaders to support Kashmiris struggle​*
*An open letter by Mr. Mohammad Azam Inqilabi, Patron of Jammu Kashmir Mahaz-e-Azadi*

Kashmir, for the last twenty days, is restive and persistently grumbling against the repressive measures of the authorities here. Over a score of innocent Kashmiris including teenagers fell a pray to ruthless rifles of the arrogant forces which go berserk to make a laughing stock of the &#8220;zero tolerance&#8221; doctrine of Dr. Manmohan Singh, the Prime Minister of India. Pity the nation, the ethnic community of Kashmir wedded to the mystic and Sufi culture, which lost its six lakh (0.6 million) freedom zealots during the past six decades due to chauvinistic and fascists approach of Indian rulers to Kashmir issue. 

Why should Kashmiris be punished for the follies and blunders which Indian rulers committed on Kashmir front? Was it not a Himalayan blunder to forcibly subjugate Kashmir in 1947 when 564 princely states of South Asia were allowed to realign either with India or Pakistan soon after the British colonists relinquished power in South Asian subcontinent? Why did the national aggrandizement of India entice it to colonize Kashmir in contravention of the vox populi of Kashmiris who had been craving for independence since 1585 AD when Mughals had invaded Kashmir. Human rights abuse--- arbitrary and extra judicial killings, outrage of the modesty of women, arson and pillage is the hallmark of the forces of occupation here.

So in the cauldron of crisis, where brew and stew of smouldering and simmering emotions of acrimony, rancour and revenge of the psychologically wounded people is conspicuously palpable, misfeasance and transgression of the authorities here is making the situation worsen. Their mismanagement is aggravating it. They arrested the pacifist leaders of the resistance movement. They are torturing the innocent people in concentration camps. So the situation, due to domineering and over-bearing attitude of the haughty hawks in power, appears to be cul-de-sac and in-eluctable.

It is true that spiritually Kashmiris are malleable, ductile, pliable and amenable; but on the resistance front they are steadfast, determined and resolute with resilience characterisitics of a heroic nation with indomitable and indefatigable will and valour. 22 years back when the 22 year old revolutionary martyr Ashfaq Majeed Wani brandished, flourished and waved his weapon in the streets of Srinagar to co-opt his coeval and contemporary compatriots for a revolutionary campaign against the alien forces, the toddlers in these streets would smile. And today these &#8216;toddlers of 1988&#8217; are 22 year old assertive revolutionaries feeling disillusioned with hackneyed platitude of the Indian rulers. They have begun to feel equally disenchanted with outpourings of the political resistance leaders.

So the apprehension of abreaction, paroxysm and catharsis cannot be underestimated. So Indian rulers should divest themselves of wishful thinking; they should, while extricating themselves from the whirlpool of egocentricity and intransigence, address the Kashmir issue without unlearning the ground realities of Kashmir. You can browbeat, intimidate and horrify Kashmiris through machiavellianism but you cannot permanently subjugate and strangulate them in your stranglehold. India should respect its vow and &#8216;vachan&#8217; to concede to Kashmiris&#8217; right to self-determination without dither and dilatory tactics, India despite wars with Pakistan, could not vanquish Kashmiris. No power on earth can coerce Kashmiris into waiving their inalienable right to self-determination.

Kashmiris are earnestly seeking your support and entreating help in their decisive campaign against the foreign yoke.

Yours,
Mohammad Azam Inqilabi,
Patron,
Jammu Kashmir Mahaz-e-Azadi

July 11, 2010
Nageen, Hazratbal
Srinagar, Kashmir.

http://www.kmsnews.org/news/inqilabi-appeals-world-leaders-support-kashmiris-struggle

Kashmiris crying hoarsely for help


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## liberalindian8

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *Inqilabi appeals world leaders to support Kashmiris struggle​*
> *An open letter by Mr. Mohammad Azam Inqilabi, Patron of Jammu Kashmir Mahaz-e-Azadi*
> 
> Kashmir, for the last twenty days, is restive and persistently grumbling against the repressive measures of the authorities here. Over a score of innocent Kashmiris including teenagers fell a pray to ruthless rifles of the arrogant forces which go berserk to make a laughing stock of the zero tolerance doctrine of Dr. Manmohan Singh, the Prime Minister of India. Pity the nation, the ethnic community of Kashmir wedded to the mystic and Sufi culture, which lost its six lakh (0.6 million) freedom zealots during the past six decades due to chauvinistic and fascists approach of Indian rulers to Kashmir issue.
> 
> Why should Kashmiris be punished for the follies and blunders which Indian rulers committed on Kashmir front? Was it not a Himalayan blunder to forcibly subjugate Kashmir in 1947 when 564 princely states of South Asia were allowed to realign either with India or Pakistan soon after the British colonists relinquished power in South Asian subcontinent? Why did the national aggrandizement of India entice it to colonize Kashmir in contravention of the vox populi of Kashmiris who had been craving for independence since 1585 AD when Mughals had invaded Kashmir. Human rights abuse--- arbitrary and extra judicial killings, outrage of the modesty of women, arson and pillage is the hallmark of the forces of occupation here.
> 
> So in the cauldron of crisis, where brew and stew of smouldering and simmering emotions of acrimony, rancour and revenge of the psychologically wounded people is conspicuously palpable, misfeasance and transgression of the authorities here is making the situation worsen. Their mismanagement is aggravating it. They arrested the pacifist leaders of the resistance movement. They are torturing the innocent people in concentration camps. So the situation, due to domineering and over-bearing attitude of the haughty hawks in power, appears to be cul-de-sac and in-eluctable.
> 
> It is true that spiritually Kashmiris are malleable, ductile, pliable and amenable; but on the resistance front they are steadfast, determined and resolute with resilience characterisitics of a heroic nation with indomitable and indefatigable will and valour. 22 years back when the 22 year old revolutionary martyr Ashfaq Majeed Wani brandished, flourished and waved his weapon in the streets of Srinagar to co-opt his coeval and contemporary compatriots for a revolutionary campaign against the alien forces, the toddlers in these streets would smile. And today these toddlers of 1988 are 22 year old assertive revolutionaries feeling disillusioned with hackneyed platitude of the Indian rulers. They have begun to feel equally disenchanted with outpourings of the political resistance leaders.
> 
> So the apprehension of abreaction, paroxysm and catharsis cannot be underestimated. So Indian rulers should divest themselves of wishful thinking; they should, while extricating themselves from the whirlpool of egocentricity and intransigence, address the Kashmir issue without unlearning the ground realities of Kashmir. You can browbeat, intimidate and horrify Kashmiris through machiavellianism but you cannot permanently subjugate and strangulate them in your stranglehold. India should respect its vow and vachan to concede to Kashmiris right to self-determination without dither and dilatory tactics, India despite wars with Pakistan, could not vanquish Kashmiris. No power on earth can coerce Kashmiris into waiving their inalienable right to self-determination.
> 
> Kashmiris are earnestly seeking your support and entreating help in their decisive campaign against the foreign yoke.
> 
> Yours,
> Mohammad Azam Inqilabi,
> Patron,
> Jammu Kashmir Mahaz-e-Azadi
> 
> July 11, 2010
> Nageen, Hazratbal
> Srinagar, Kashmir.
> 
> Inqilabi appeals world leaders to support Kashmiris struggle | Kashmir Media Service
> 
> Kashmiris crying hoarsely for help



I agree Kashmiris are facing lot of problems. They should go to Pakistan which they forgot to do during seperation. Obviously India won't give away the land no matter how many Kashmiris die in protest.

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## liberalindian8

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *Inqilabi appeals world leaders to support Kashmiris struggle​*
> *An open letter by Mr. Mohammad Azam Inqilabi, Patron of Jammu Kashmir Mahaz-e-Azadi*
> 
> Kashmir, for the last twenty days, is restive and persistently grumbling against the repressive measures of the authorities here. Over a score of innocent Kashmiris including teenagers fell a pray to ruthless rifles of the arrogant forces which go berserk to make a laughing stock of the zero tolerance doctrine of Dr. Manmohan Singh, the Prime Minister of India. Pity the nation, the ethnic community of Kashmir wedded to the mystic and Sufi culture, which lost its six lakh (0.6 million) freedom zealots during the past six decades due to chauvinistic and fascists approach of Indian rulers to Kashmir issue.
> 
> Why should Kashmiris be punished for the follies and blunders which Indian rulers committed on Kashmir front? Was it not a Himalayan blunder to forcibly subjugate Kashmir in 1947 when 564 princely states of South Asia were allowed to realign either with India or Pakistan soon after the British colonists relinquished power in South Asian subcontinent? Why did the national aggrandizement of India entice it to colonize Kashmir in contravention of the vox populi of Kashmiris who had been craving for independence since 1585 AD when Mughals had invaded Kashmir. Human rights abuse--- arbitrary and extra judicial killings, outrage of the modesty of women, arson and pillage is the hallmark of the forces of occupation here.
> 
> So in the cauldron of crisis, where brew and stew of smouldering and simmering emotions of acrimony, rancour and revenge of the psychologically wounded people is conspicuously palpable, misfeasance and transgression of the authorities here is making the situation worsen. Their mismanagement is aggravating it. They arrested the pacifist leaders of the resistance movement. They are torturing the innocent people in concentration camps. So the situation, due to domineering and over-bearing attitude of the haughty hawks in power, appears to be cul-de-sac and in-eluctable.
> 
> It is true that spiritually Kashmiris are malleable, ductile, pliable and amenable; but on the resistance front they are steadfast, determined and resolute with resilience characterisitics of a heroic nation with indomitable and indefatigable will and valour. 22 years back when the 22 year old revolutionary martyr Ashfaq Majeed Wani brandished, flourished and waved his weapon in the streets of Srinagar to co-opt his coeval and contemporary compatriots for a revolutionary campaign against the alien forces, the toddlers in these streets would smile. And today these toddlers of 1988 are 22 year old assertive revolutionaries feeling disillusioned with hackneyed platitude of the Indian rulers. They have begun to feel equally disenchanted with outpourings of the political resistance leaders.
> 
> So the apprehension of abreaction, paroxysm and catharsis cannot be underestimated. So Indian rulers should divest themselves of wishful thinking; they should, while extricating themselves from the whirlpool of egocentricity and intransigence, address the Kashmir issue without unlearning the ground realities of Kashmir. You can browbeat, intimidate and horrify Kashmiris through machiavellianism but you cannot permanently subjugate and strangulate them in your stranglehold. India should respect its vow and vachan to concede to Kashmiris right to self-determination without dither and dilatory tactics, India despite wars with Pakistan, could not vanquish Kashmiris. No power on earth can coerce Kashmiris into waiving their inalienable right to self-determination.
> 
> Kashmiris are earnestly seeking your support and entreating help in their decisive campaign against the foreign yoke.
> 
> Yours,
> Mohammad Azam Inqilabi,
> Patron,
> Jammu Kashmir Mahaz-e-Azadi
> 
> July 11, 2010
> Nageen, Hazratbal
> Srinagar, Kashmir.
> 
> Inqilabi appeals world leaders to support Kashmiris struggle | Kashmir Media Service
> 
> Kashmiris crying hoarsely for help



One question here, why do u guys feel the same way for people of tibet when ur best friend does the same there?


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## Freedom

no..leader will interfere in india internal matter...u also don't need to worry. indian govt. is capable to solve this problem....i am feeling that most of pakistani member are very much worried about J&K current situation.I just want to give advice to all pak member *" please don't take tension,it's not good for health." u are already in lot of trouble.*

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## javaman

they shud protest in u.n,but u.n is in u.s

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## Freedom

javaman said:


> they shud protest in u.n,but u.n is in u.s



are yaar.....

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## EjazR

*Jammu and Kashmir police recruitment sees unexpected response from youths - dnaindia.com*

*Srinagar: The Jammu and Kashmir police has been the regular target of stone pelters but this has not deterred youths of the Valley from thronging a police recruitment rally in Baramulla district.*

The state police has advertised for 400 posts of constables, for which recruitments rallies are being held across the state but with the ongoing resentment of people during last few week the officials had little hope of any recruitment from this district in particular, a senior officer involved in the recruitment process said.

But the response of locals on Sunday morning left them surprised. Right from early morning, people had lined up at the recruitment venue to get themselves registered for the rally, which will continue during the week.

*For the 400 posts, 8,762 youths from Baramulla alone had registered for the rally, which comes to over 20 youths for one post.*

*Even more surprising was that some of them who were involved in stone pelting incidents were also spotted for recruitment into the very same force which they were targeting during last few week, the official claimed.*

"The recurring protests in the Valley has had an adverse effect on the business opportunities of the locals. The youths are now looking at whatever jobs are being offered in government services. The job in police is a lucrative one for them and they do not mind shunning their hatred towards police when it comes to getting a job," the official said.

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## graphican

liberalindian8 said:


> I agree Kashmiris are facing lot of problems. They should go to Pakistan which they forgot to do during seperation. *Obviously India won't give away the land no matter how many Kashmiris die in protest.*



Now that was from a "liberalindian". So agree India doesn't have any legitimacy of keeping Kashmir? Being at the down-side of moral ground, do you expect this will turn you way just because of fire-power? USA also had thought the same for Afghanistan.


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## LURKER

Even more surprising was that some of them who were involved in stone pelting incidents were also spotted for recruitment into the very same force which they were targeting during last few week, the official claimed. 

that was the best part of the news . that shows that these youth were part of the protest becoz of one major reason that they are "unemployed" . yes unemployment is the main cause of anger amongst the ppl . and these separatist take advantage of this situation by instigating the youth. most of these unemployed men are paid (upto rs 500) to take part in stone pelting .

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## javaman

there is no al qaida,no taliban in kashmir.if these guys would not have been in afgh,then afgh could be a candy 4 u.s.so dont compare *indian part with afgh*


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## javaman

some may not digest it,some may vomit it.so dont post this kind of news


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## Bushy

pak fa said:


> that was the best part of the news . that shows that these youth were part of the protest becoz of one major reason that they are "unemployed" . yes unemployment is the main cause of anger amongst the ppl . and these separatist take advantage of this situation by instigating the youth. most of these unemployed men are paid (upto rs 500) to take part in stone pelting .



That's the right and only possible conclusion from this news piece. It is undeniable fact that for everyone priority in life is _roti kapda aur makan_ (food, clothing, and shelter), before people get enough time and resources to spend on other things. 

Having lived in Sopore (though for a short duration), I can always attest to the fact that the youth there is paid (way less than Rs. 500 per session, rather around Rs. 100) for stone pelting while ignoring the explicit dismay shown by their elders. 

However, it in no way exonerates the government of India that has, despite doling out heavy amount of subsidies, shown a lackadaisical attitude toward the right and requisite investment in the valley, be it on education or infrastructure. The valley needs more educational institutes and manufacturing units of diverse kinds than the highways and rail projects that are getting the priority these days.

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## EjazR

*India, Pak do not realise Kashmirs value*

God made heaven and gifted it to us, but the man has turned it into hell. This was the viewpoint of families who recently got a chance to visit the paradise in pain  Kashmir. Sharing their experiences, they said they choose Kashmir as their holiday destination because at least once in their lifetime, they wanted to see the much-talked about place.

All families agreed that if the ugly and vicious political games had not been prevalent in Kashmir, the valley would have been the best tourist destination in the world.

One Mona Sapra said, We were mesmerised by the natural beauty in Pahalgam and Patni Top, but as soon as we reached Srinagar, we were informed about the strike and stone-pelting that was going on. All markets were closed and we didnt even get food to eat. I cooked the food myself in the kitchen of a hotel. We left for Ludhiana the same night.

On being asked if they were scared before leaving for Kashmir, her husband Jatinder Sapra said, We were confident because we were very well guided by our relative, Davinder Pasricha, who visits Kashmir often. 

*People of Kashmir consider themselves Azad Kashmiris, who are neither a part of India nor Pakistan. They are so congenial and cooperative and truly respect their guests, said Mona. Another tourist Meenakshi Bansal, said, I talked to many people over there like the taxi drivers, guides and hotel staffers. One of the taxi drivers said they were always ready to lay down their lives for India. But the dirty politics going on in the state completely ignored their condition and politicians never thought about them.*

*She added, A common man of Kashmir is deeply angry with the politicians of both the countries, who are playing their chair game and crushing the sentiments of innocent citizens.*

*The government does not understand the fact that our livelihood depends on tourism in the Valley and because of all this ugly politics and terrorism, we are not able to arrange for even two meals a day for our families, said a guide to Rajeev Bansal, who recently visited Kashmir.*

On being asked about their experience, Meenakshi Bansal said, We wanted to stay in a houseboat at Dal lake but were disappointed to see the uncleanliness. People told us that recently, PM Manmohan Singh had come and given a huge amount of money for the cleanliness drive in the Dal but nothing has been done as yet.

Priyanka Sharda, another city-based tourist, said, India and Pakistan do not realise the value of this God-gifted heaven amid their blame game. All problems, be it the curfew or militancy in the Valley, are on one side, but the hospitality of Kashmiris we experienced has just touched our hearts. We stayed with a native family in Srinagar and they took such good care of us that it felt like home.


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## S_O_C_O_M

Again an Indian news source. Didn't even read it.


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## EjazR

*Valley newspapers resume publication Lastupdate:- Mon, 12 Jul 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com*

Srinagar, July 11: Valley based newspaper organizations on Sunday decided to resume publication after assurances from the Government that it wouldn&#8217;t intimidate the Kashmiri journalists.
A spokesman of the media fraternity said the Government had assured that it would provide adequate curfew passes to the media persons review all cases filed by police against journalists and provide curfew passes to newspapers hawkers. It is for the first time that curfew passes would be issued to hawkers.
An official spokesman this evening said: &#8220;On the instructions of the Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, Principal Secretary to Chief Minister, Khurshid Ahmed Ganai, who also holds the charge of Principal Secretary, Information, held a meeting with the representatives of media associations in which all issues raised were resolved amicably.&#8221;
The members also took the issue of registration of the FIR against the News X correspondents and asked the government to withdraw it. The spokesman said the government has assured them that it would reconsider the decision.
On Saturday Police had registered a case against a New Delhi based television news channel- News-X and its reporters for allegedly running incorrect news about the death of a person in police firing in south Kashmir&#8217;s Pulwama district.
Pertinently, all newspapers published from Srinagar had suspended publication to protest the restrictions on the movement of journalists, cancellation of their curfew passes and registration of cases against journalists. Journalist fraternity in Kashmir had condemned strong-arm measures of government to curb smooth functioning of media in Kashmir. &#8220;It has been made impossible for the journalists to cover news and also publish the newspapers. Therefore, in these circumstances, it has been decided to collectively suspend publication of all newspapers in Kashmir to protest against the draconian measures,&#8221; journalists had said in a joint statement issued on Saturday.
Around 60 newspapers in Urdu and English languages are published from Srinagar. The newspapers failed to hit the stands for the fourth consecutive day Sunday.
Yesterday journalists staged a sit-in protest at Press Enclave against the curbs imposed on them and decided to suspended publications of newspapers unless government assures free movement of journalists.
In the meeting today the representatives of the five journalist bodies raised several issues and also took strong note of the government&#8217;s decision to facilitate entry of selected journalists from New Delhi at a time when Srinagar based journalists were being heckled and restricted by police.


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## ejaz007

*Indian Army chief concedes failure in held Kashmir *
Monday, July 12, 2010
*Says have not been able to build on gains*
By Muhammad Saleh Zaafir

ISLAMABAD: Indian Army Chief General VK Singh has confessed of failures of the Indian Army in occupied Kashmir. In the first such narration over the years, he said the basic reason behind the flare-up in the Kashmir valley was the failure to build on the gains that had been made by the Indian security forces in the occupied state.

According to media reports, the Indian Army chief in an interview with an Indian TV network said the Kashmir situation had been tense for quite some time and the reasons were many. The basic reason being that we have not been able to build on the gains that have been made, he added.

Singh said the army had brought the situation under control to a certain level from where other steps should have been taken to carry forward the process and bring peace to the valley.

So far as the army is concerned, I think as security forces, a lot of work has been done. The situation has been brought to a particular level when other initiatives should have started to make way for betterment, he said.

Elaborating the steps required to contain the volatile situation, he said: First of all, there has to be concerted efforts to identify the miscreants behind the violent protests. There are few. There are people who are passing instructions on phone. They have to be identified. There are people financing the protests. They must be identified, Singh said.

He said it was for the local administration and elected representatives to win the confidence of the common man and convince him to stay away from the protests. How do we connect with the common man and build confidence in him so that he can stay away from all this? This is both an administrative measure as well as it depends on the elected leaders out there at various levels, the Indian general said.

He said the army was deployed in parts of the valley as a deterrent to curb violence that had rocked Kashmir since June 11.I think there was a sort of loss of confidence and they thought that the army should be seen more prominently. We said yes, as we are as much concerned as anyone else, he said.

In another interesting development Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) president Mehbooba Mufti stood her ground Sunday and turned down Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singhs request to her to attend the all-party meeting called on Monday by Chief Minister Omar Abdullah over the so-called violence in Jammu and Kashmir.

It was very kind of the prime minister to call me. I have deep regard for the premier. He advised us to attend the meeting. But it was painful to convey my inability to attend the meeting, Mehbooba told reporters, a day after Manmohan Singh called her urging her to reconsider her refusal to attend the meeting.

She said the situation in the Kashmir Valley was so bad that nothing at the level of the state government, that has been discredited, will help... unless there is a bigger initiative which will be taken seriously by the people who are caught in a prison like situation.

I told the premier to excuse us. But we are looking forward to a bigger initiative from him, she said, but didnt elaborate. She alleged that the Omar Abdullah government was trying to hide its failures by convening such a meeting after taking all the decisions that he shouldnt have taken.

They have used excessive force to suppress the anger. And he projects himself like the only nationalist in Kashmir. The PDP chief said the meeting was a damage control exercise aimed at hoodwinking the international community.

I have requested the prime minister to intervene and put forward four points, she said, adding media curbs in the valley should be lifted, the army should be recalled, and the crackdown launched by the state government should be put to an end.

Indian Army chief concedes failure in held Kashmir


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## Awesome

This news keeps repeating itself every year. Each time the Indians are "surprised".

Sounds more like PR crap and an image boosting exercise.


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## ejaz007

Ever thought it could perhaps be a tactic by the youth to get into the police get the proper training and then join the other camp. So you train them and they fight you.


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## EjazR

*@civfanatic*

I assume you are from Pakistani Kashmir. I can assure you that Mirwaiz Umar Farooq was killed by pro-Pakistan militants and if you are interested I can point you to relevant articles, books e.t.c.

The sad thing is that after his death there was high anti-Pakistan sentiment and Hizbul-Mujahideen supporters were beaten up. When his dead body was being taken out amid slogans, the jittery paramilitary unit stationed there fired on the people and killed 60+ people. Some reports suggest that militants opened-fired on them. This turned the anti-Pakistan sentiment into anti-Indian sentiment. These are pretty well known facts in the valley and are noted in many books around the Kashmir conflict like Shadow War by Arif Jamal and was also noted by the Human Rights Watch and other HR organizations. Even some ISI and Pakistani diplomats had said in private conversations told journalists that their tactic of targeting pro-Independence leaders backfired so it was a policy of the ISI to eliminate any separatists who was not pro-Pakistan.

Geelani was thrown out of JI because he turned dictatorial. He has the backing of the ISI and received foreign contributions in huge amounts. He along with some other Hurriyat leaders were even charged for corruption amounting in total to about INR 80crores at one point in time. He has seen more as a Pakistani puppet by the most separatists.

However, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq was untainted under those allegations as he had not received any foreign contributions. This is one of the reasons why Mirwaiz Umar Farooq is more popular among separatists than Geelani.

The point that many Pakistani firends don't realise is that the sepratists among Kashmiris by a large margin want independence and not accession to Pakistan. Even the Kashmiris in PaK or Gilgit Baltistan. Its another story weather GoP allows them to express these opinions openly.


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## jha

ejaz007 said:


> Ever thought it could perhaps be a tactic by the youth to get into the police get the proper training and then join the other camp. So you train them and they fight you.



hey whatever makes your day man...
BTW nothing surprising et all...they just need employment which when they get , they will kick @$$ of those terrorists who support them..


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## Ammyy

EjazR said:


> *Jammu and Kashmir police recruitment sees unexpected response from youths - dnaindia.com*
> 
> *Srinagar: The Jammu and Kashmir police has been the regular target of stone pelters but this has not deterred youths of the Valley from thronging a police recruitment rally in Baramulla district.*
> 
> The state police has advertised for 400 posts of constables, for which recruitments rallies are being held across the state but with the ongoing resentment of people during last few week the officials had little hope of any recruitment from this district in particular, a senior officer involved in the recruitment process said.
> 
> But the response of locals on Sunday morning left them surprised. Right from early morning, people had lined up at the recruitment venue to get themselves registered for the rally, which will continue during the week.
> 
> *For the 400 posts, 8,762 youths from Baramulla alone had registered for the rally, which comes to over 20 youths for one post.*
> 
> *Even more surprising was that some of them who were involved in stone pelting incidents were also spotted for recruitment into the very same force which they were targeting during last few week, the official claimed.*
> 
> "The recurring protests in the Valley has had an adverse effect on the business opportunities of the locals. The youths are now looking at whatever jobs are being offered in government services. The job in police is a lucrative one for them and they do not mind shunning their hatred towards police when it comes to getting a job," the official said.




*They are true Indian .. and belongs to those 98% people who want to be with India 
*

*Slap on the face on those who want to destroy peace in J&K*

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## karan.1970

ejaz007 said:


> Ever thought it could perhaps be a tactic by the youth to get into the police get the proper training and then join the other camp. So you train them and they fight you.



Getting a little contradictory .. Aren't we.. On one side a lot of Pakistanis claim that rag tag militants and civilians are able to tie up half of Indian army in Kashmir. Now why would these young folks (who later want to join the same great insurgent army) be interested in getting trained by such an ineffective police force

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## jha

Asim Aquil said:


> This news keeps repeating itself every year. Each time the Indians are "surprised".
> 
> Sounds more like PR crap and an image boosting exercise.





good going India ...it will be even better to see the victims of terrorism replying back to the terrorists ...No doubt this recruitment will dampen the morality of the likes of Msood azhar ,salahuddin etc..

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## Hulk

EjazR said:


> *A Big Question: Do they really want withdrawal of troops from Kashmir?*
> 
> *Ajmer Alam Wani*
> 
> JAMMU:
> *People of Kashmir should now understand the reality that troops can not be withdrawn until there is peace on the streets.*
> 
> These people are being played with, their sentiments and ego is challenged every time and *being a hot blood race they lost their brain and throng to streets raising slogans for Azadi and against India*&#8230;
> 
> *One fails to understand that what purpose is solved through protests and facing the bullets or throwing the stones on troops? The process provokes every human heart to react and so do the security forces or the other agencies dealing with the situation.*
> 
> These innocent people were taught that every killing in Kashmir takes place due to the presence of security forces so these people who even don&#8217;t know the role of security forces in protecting their lives do what these leaders and the agencies operating from across the border want them to do. But when it come to face the bullets, it is only common citizen of Kashmir Valley who becomes the victim but the leaders (separatists) who want to keep the pot of violence boiling enjoy wazwan inside their luxury homes so some times are put under house arerest., while those in the mainstream political parties are invited by *the National Media for discussions making audience fool.*



Very good points, some of which I have said many times.
1) Troops are only their till there is no peace, if there is peace troops will be out. Troops live pathetic life in J&K and no one enjoys living like that.

2) Kashmiri's are hot blooded and does not use brain, I agree to that, and maybe some paid elements provoke them enough.

3) The purpose of stone pelting is simple, it is organized by paid groups to make sure situation deteriorates so that they can say there is no peace in Kashmir.

4) Right, have you seen Mehebooba Mufti, she always tries to give anti India, Security forces statement. The reason is that she thinks that can get her votes in Valley. She has often been the culprit in making things worse. I remember the Amarnath Yatra still, after which I lost all respect for Kashmiri's. They resorted to stone pelting when they could have resolved that easily by talks. So it is not wrong they are hot blooded and brainless.


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## jha

karan.1970 said:


> Getting a little contradictory .. Aren't we.. On one side a lot of Pakistanis claim that rag tag militants and civilians are able to tie up half of Indian army in Kashmir. Now why would these young folks (who later want to join the same great insurgent army) be interested in getting trained by such an ineffective police force



A little facepalm for Masood Azhar, salahuddin and the company...
Lets see how long they carry this fake battle ....

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## Hulk

Asim Aquil said:


> Dude you're enslaving them and then telling them why it's good for you. *They beat your security forces with shoes! *That is the level of disdain they have for India.
> 
> You can't logic your way into their hearts - you are the problem.



The same can be created, why Baluchistan burn's Pakistan's flag? Common man is an idiot and this article perfectly tells that. At the time of Amarnath Yatra issue, if people were just gone to CM and asked for clarification, things would have been done. But they resorted to stone pelting. Tells a lot.

If you wrongfully convince people that security forces are deliberately killing their people. They will do exactly that, but that does not mean it is the truth.


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## brahmastra

its simple:

Give jobs to kashmiri youth. Give benefits to the company who install their plant in J&K. once people get busy with earning bread and family they will not fall in false propaganda against the country by some separatist dalals.


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## karan.1970

simply modify article 367 to allow corporates to lease land in J&K for specific industries.. 5 years and this whole nonsense of a freedom fight will be a thing of past. Freedom from unemployment and poverty is the key


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## SpArK




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## SpArK

Its normal as to see youth from state joining its state force.Good going India.


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## indushek

Kakgeta said:


> Indoctrinated ? Son, what have been watching ? You desperately need to lay off India TV, I wasn't sent to one of those Propaganda, Brainwashing schools you guys believe it is mandatory for all Pakistanis to send their children to.................And if we wanted land, we would have also kept the cry for Junagarh and Hyderabad alive, they also wanted to join Pakistan but India surrounded both states, imposed a complete lock down and those people had to accede to India not because of nationalist feeling but because of hunger...........



Well sir, correct if i am wrong but from whatever i have been reading on this forum till now, right from fresh members to Think Tanks to Super Moderators, everybody says that they want freedom for Kashmir. Its true that our countries have dispute over this piece of land right from our inception, but whenever there is unrest in IOK people jump up like anything saying that India's hold on kashmir would come to an end as if its going to happen tomorrow? While our Intelligence agencies uncover evidence implicating Hurriyat leaders (sick bastards who want 10 to 15 more to die so that the agitation could get its requisite effect in people's view!!! ) people here say its just propoganda. No indian source is true but will any Pakistani source would try to go deep and even if it did, it would instantly become RAW sponsored one!!!. I accept the GOI isn't a heaven sent one, we have people corrupt to the core as leaders here and either for the trouble there or (as for me no kickbacks for getting investments in kashmir) there was no development and job opportunities in Kashmir on par with the rest of India. All i am saying is this until our governments decide on some solution we can keep on discussing about it, but how can u side with terrorists ( a higly vague word since we differ on who should be called so) saying they are fighting a just war. And about the land grab may be Hyderabad wanted to join Pakistan but seriously is that possible, would any sane person allow it?? would Pakistan allow it if some province deep Pakistan had said that they would like to be with us??. So keeping that argument aside regarding kashmir due to the existing animosity between our nations and the four wars (started by your establishment) naturally any indian would feel in such a way.


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## hillman32

I support Kashmiris in their struggle for freedom.

Indian Occupation is illegal and against the UN Resolution.

Allah may help them for attaining their legitimate right.


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## fatman17

*A wounded valley* 

Monday, July 12, 2010

Aijaz Zaka Syed

The writer is opinion editor of the Khaleej Times. 

Its nearly seven years since I visited Kashmir as a guest of the J&K Tourism. Fond memories of that week-long visit to the land that Mughal emperor Jahangir insisted was paradise on earth remain as fresh as the valleys incredible landscape. 

The experience of staying at the magnificent Grand Palace, former residence of Maharaja Hari Singh, overlooking Dal Lake and against the backdrop of the Pir Panjal mountain range, is enough to last for a lifetime. The rich Kashmiri cuisine that reminded me so much of our own and the warmth of my hosts and friends added to the experience. 

At the end of that trip in the spring of 2003 I promised my friends that Id visit the valley every year. Its a shame I havent been able to keep that promise. However, Ive stayed in touch with my friends in Kashmir. Some of them write to me now and then commenting on my articles, invariably asking me why I never wrote about Kashmir.

Indeed, for all my love and admiration for Kashmir and its people, I have been running scared of the K word. (Not that an opinion piece in a distant, foreign newspaper by a little known writer really made a difference to the existence of Kashmiri people). Maybe its because of the red lines that Indian Muslims have drawn around themselves. 

Having long carried the cross of Partition, the Indian Muslim finds it difficult to talk about his own problems, let alone take on the Kashmiris existential angst. No wonder most Kashmiris despise us. As for the rest of India, Kashmir is like another planet. For all our tolerance and liberal ethos, we still cringe at any discussion involving Kashmir and the appalling humanitarian situation in the state. 

The K word has acquired a radioactive nature of its own. India and Pakistan, their media, establishments and armies have fought so long and so bitterly over Kashmir that even the most innocuous, harmless discussion involving genuine concerns and problems of Kashmiri people is impossible today. Except for some solitary, but immensely courageous voices, theres been deafening silence in the media on the humanitarian disaster brewing in the state that has become a matter of great national prestige for us. 

But this is no time to hide and remain silent. Kashmir is burning. And if something is not done soon, the heat will be felt by the rest of India  and the world. If we really care about India and all that it stands for and represents, we must speak out against the shame of human-rights abuses going on in the valley. 

I have watched with growing horror increasing reports of innocent, young boys  as young as 13  dying in police firing and so-called encounters with security forces. No week passes without people coming out on the streets even in remote villages over some killing or other. 

In Kashmir Valley, writes Kashmir Times Editor Anuradha Bhasin Jamwal, where gross violation of human rights results in anger spilling out on the roads in the form of protests and stone-pelting, the agencies are unsparing, responding to every voice, every stone with a bullet. Young boys and men disappear and one hears about them only when encounters with militants turn out to be fake, the dead men turning out to be missing men and not foreign militants as claimed.

Last week, three young men were killed in police firing and clashes with security forces, one after another, sparking massive protests all over the state. This week, two more people have been killed in police firing and clashes. The valley has been regularly rocked by protests over the killings and disappearances of young Kashmiris for years now. 

Nearly hundred thousand people have been claimed by the current round of conflict that began in the late 1980s. Thousands of Kashmiri men  and boys  have disappeared never to return. But the cost is much higher. Ghastly scars of this long-running conflict are not always visible. From the Shopian rape and murder episode to the brutalities meted out on a daily basis, its a long tale of betrayal and a love affair turning into a nightmare. 

International rights groups say that almost every home in Kashmir today has someone either missing or emotionally scarred or both. Hospitals have little clue how to deal with the never-ending deluge of psychologically damaged people. In any case, you cant treat acute mental trauma and scars of the soul with aspirin or those meaningless bottles of glucose. 

How did Jahangirs firdous end up like this? Perhaps both India and Pakistan share responsibility for this state of affairs. Their bitter rivalry  and many wars  for this coveted piece of territory has turned Kashmir into a large prison for its people from which they can neither escape nor hope for release. If Kashmir had been treated as a living people, rather than as a prized piece of real estate, the Kashmir knot would have been resolved long ago. 

Personally speaking, as an Indian, I would want nothing better than have Kashmir with us. With its fabled religious and cultural diversity, Kashmir is perhaps the best example of Indias own breathtaking plurality. It has been home to both Hazratbal and the Amarnath temple for centuries. Srinagars Jama Masjid and Shankaracharyas temple have long coexisted in harmony. Look at the map and see how it seems to sit like a crown on Indias head. 

But we cant protect this crown at gunpoint. 

We cannot continue to claim Kashmir belongs to India even as we drive its people away with our actions. The bulk of Indias security forces  a whopping 716,000  are deployed in Kashmir, the heaviest concentration of troops anywhere in the world. Take a walk along the Dal Lake in Srinagar and there are more soldiers on the road than civilians. 

With so many soldiers on the march and throwing their weight around, its a virtual battlefront out there. Is it any wonder then theres so much of resentment against the security forces in Kashmir today? That powder keg of anger and frustration blows up every now and then at the slightest provocation. With so many jackboots on the ground, how can we ever hope to win Kashmiri hearts and minds?

During his recent visit to the state, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh talked of creative political and economic initiatives to address the Kashmiri alienation. He also talked of an economic roadmap to put the state on the road to progress. 

While creative solutions are welcome, when will our leaders in Delhi realise that its not economic dispossession but lack of political empowerment and continuing atrocities that are at the heart of Kashmiri alienation? Dr Singh also warned of zero tolerance for human-rights violations. Once again, a welcome assertion! But why are those responsible for the shame of Shopian and other outrages still at large?

I dont know if and when the K knot will ever be resolved between India and Pakistan. But if Indias leaders really want to win back Kashmiri hearts and minds, they must get the army out of Kashmir now. Right away. Before its too late! India is loved and admired the world over for its democracy, its philosophy of peace, love and tolerance. Whats going on in Kashmir doesnt gel with these ideals. We can win Kashmir only with love, not at gunpoint. Kashmir is the land of love and peace, the land of Sufis and saints. Lets not turn it into a battleground. Please!

Email: aijaz@khaleejtimes.com


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## vsdoc

As Patti Smyth and Don Henley once famously crooned ....

"Sometimes love just aint enough!"

Cheers, Doc


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## fatman17

*Indian Army chief concedes failure in held Kashmir *

Monday, July 12, 2010

Says have not been able to build on gains

By Muhammad Saleh Zaafir

ISLAMABAD: Indian Army Chief General VK Singh has confessed of failures of the Indian Army in occupied Kashmir. In the first such narration over the years, he said the &#8216;basic reason&#8217; behind the flare-up in the Kashmir valley was the failure to build on the gains that had been made by the Indian security forces in the occupied state.

According to media reports, the Indian Army chief in an interview with an Indian TV network said the Kashmir situation had been tense for quite some time and the reasons were many. &#8220;The basic reason being that we have not been able to build on the gains that have been made,&#8221; he added.

Singh said the army had brought the situation under control to a certain level from where other steps should have been taken to carry forward the process and bring peace to the valley.

&#8220;So far as the army is concerned, I think as security forces, a lot of work has been done. The situation has been brought to a particular level when other initiatives should have started to make way for betterment,&#8221; he said.

Elaborating the steps required to contain the volatile situation, he said: &#8220;First of all, there has to be concerted efforts to identify the miscreants behind the violent protests&#8221;. &#8220;There are few. There are people who are passing instructions on phone. They have to be identified. There are people financing the protests. They must be identified,&#8221; Singh said.

He said it was for the local administration and elected representatives to win the confidence of the common man and convince him to stay away from the protests. &#8220;How do we connect with the common man and build confidence in him so that he can stay away from all this? This is both an administrative measure as well as it depends on the elected leaders out there at various levels,&#8221; the Indian general said.

He said the army was deployed in parts of the valley as a deterrent to curb violence that had rocked Kashmir since June 11.&#8220;I think there was a sort of loss of confidence and they thought that the army should be seen more prominently. We said yes, as we are as much concerned as anyone else,&#8221; he said.

In another interesting development People&#8217;s Democratic Party (PDP) president Mehbooba Mufti stood her ground Sunday and turned down Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh&#8217;s request to her to attend the all-party meeting called on Monday by Chief Minister Omar Abdullah over the so-called violence in Jammu and Kashmir.

&#8220;It was very kind of the prime minister to call me. I have deep regard for the premier. He advised us to attend the meeting. But it was painful to convey my inability to attend the meeting,&#8221; Mehbooba told reporters, a day after Manmohan Singh called her urging her to reconsider her refusal to attend the meeting.

She said the situation in the Kashmir Valley was &#8216;so bad that nothing at the level of the state government, that has been discredited, will help... unless there is a bigger initiative which will be taken seriously by the people who are caught in a prison like situation&#8217;.

&#8220;I told the premier to excuse us. But we are looking forward to a bigger initiative from him,&#8221; she said, but didn&#8217;t elaborate. She alleged that the Omar Abdullah government was trying to hide its &#8216;failures&#8217; by convening such a meeting after taking all the decisions that &#8216;he shouldn&#8217;t have taken&#8217;.

&#8220;They have used excessive force to suppress the anger. And he projects himself like the only nationalist in Kashmir.&#8221; The PDP chief said the meeting was a &#8216;damage control exercise&#8217; aimed at hoodwinking the international community.

&#8220;I have requested the prime minister to intervene and put forward four points,&#8221; she said, adding media curbs in the valley should be lifted, the army should be recalled, and the crackdown launched by the state government should be put to an end.


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## Spring Onion

They not only marched in Indian Occupied Kashmir invaded by India, but Kashmiris also marched in Indian cities against Indian State Terrorism 


*Kashmiris protest in Delhi, pune against civilian killings in IHK*
Submitted 1 hr 9 mins ago 


Kashmiris staying in New Delhi and Pune staged peaceful protests demanding an end to the spate of killings by Indian troops and police in occupied Kashmir.
According to Kashmir Media Service, Kashmiri businessmen, students, doctors, academicians and several other professionals converged on Parliament Street near Jantar Mantar in New Delhi and staged a sit-in to condemn the gross human rights violations by Indian forces in the occupied territory.

The protestors demanded repeal of the Armed Forces Special Forces Act (AFSPA), due to which the troopers operating in Jammu and Kashmir enjoyed impunity.
Kashmiri students also took out a peaceful rally in Pune. Carrying posters in their hands, the students said that objective of the rally was to make people aware of the problems faced by common civilians in occupied Kashmir.

Kashmiris protest in Delhi, pune against civilian killings in IHK | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

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## Prometheus

well Mr.Inqilabi needs to know that there is a small problem with world's support ..........

*WE GOT A ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM*


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## Dr.Evil

Who the fook is he, no one even knows about him or his organisation, Even your Ms.Christiana Palmer is more infamous than this guy.


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## LURKER

its hard for our pakistani friends to digest such news .

with due respect to our pakistani friends i request the mods to delete this thread


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## ek_indian

I am curious to know which world leaders Mr. Inqilabi is referring. What weight they carry and....whether they would listen him or not??


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## Ammyy

hillman32 said:


> I support Kashmiris in their struggle for freedom.
> 
> Indian Occupation is illegal and against the UN Resolution.
> 
> Allah may help them for attaining their legitimate right.



Sorry buddy . UN cant do anything and not any one else 

Kashmir is ours and no one can take it


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## lhuang

Jana said:


> They not only marched in Indian Occupied Kashmir invaded by India, but Kashmiris also marched in Indian cities against Indian State Terrorism
> 
> 
> *Kashmiris protest in Delhi, pune against civilian killings in IHK*
> Submitted 1 hr 9 mins ago
> 
> 
> Kashmiris staying in New Delhi and Pune staged peaceful protests demanding an end to the spate of killings by Indian troops and police in occupied Kashmir.
> According to Kashmir Media Service, Kashmiri businessmen, students, doctors, academicians and several other professionals converged on Parliament Street near Jantar Mantar in New Delhi and staged a sit-in to condemn the gross human rights violations by Indian forces in the occupied territory.
> 
> The protestors demanded repeal of the Armed Forces Special Forces Act (AFSPA), due to which the troopers operating in Jammu and Kashmir enjoyed impunity.
> Kashmiri students also took out a peaceful rally in Pune. Carrying posters in their hands, the students said that objective of the rally was to make people aware of the problems faced by common civilians in occupied Kashmir.
> 
> Kashmiris protest in Delhi, pune against civilian killings in IHK | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online



Nice extrapolation. From Kashmiris protest in Delhi against civilian killings to Kashmiris protest in Delhi against Indian State Terrorism.

I believe this is what a good friend of mine calls, Lahori Logic.


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## Ammyy

Jana said:


> They not only marched in Indian Occupied Kashmir invaded by India, but Kashmiris also marched in Indian cities against Indian State Terrorism
> 
> 
> *Kashmiris protest in Delhi, pune against civilian killings in IHK*
> Submitted 1 hr 9 mins ago
> 
> 
> Kashmiris staying in New Delhi and Pune staged peaceful protests demanding an end to the spate of killings by Indian troops and police in occupied Kashmir.
> According to Kashmir Media Service, Kashmiri businessmen, students, doctors, academicians and several other professionals converged on Parliament Street near Jantar Mantar in New Delhi and staged a sit-in to condemn the gross human rights violations by Indian forces in the occupied territory.
> 
> The protestors demanded repeal of the Armed Forces Special Forces Act (AFSPA), due to which the troopers operating in Jammu and Kashmir enjoyed impunity.
> Kashmiri students also took out a peaceful rally in Pune. Carrying posters in their hands, the students said that objective of the rally was to make people aware of the problems faced by common civilians in occupied Kashmir.
> 
> Kashmiris protest in Delhi, pune against civilian killings in IHK | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online




First of this is F Pakistani source no one gonna believe this 
Second if they protest so they are protesting for killing not against India 
And terrorist are responsible for these killings 
Cause they distracts youth from their right way so .... this is shameful for them you want to destroy peace in J&K


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## Mogambo

hillman32 said:


> I support Kashmiris in their struggle for freedom.
> 
> Indian Occupation is illegal and against the UN Resolution.
> 
> Allah may help them for attaining their legitimate right.



Then you should not be Hippocrate and protest against Kashmir occupied by china and Pakistan also.

And what about division and merging of baltistan gilgit etc. from real Kashmir to Pakistan? why you have divided and merged Kashmir's some parts in Pakistan if you are concerned for it.


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## mjnaushad

*Pak TV channels banned in IHK*

ISLAMABAD: In Indian-held Kashmir, authorities have banned the beaming of Pakistani channels in north Kashmir and directed the cable operators in Baramulla and Sopore to block five Pakistani news channels and a religious channel with immediate effect. According to a report by the Kashmir Media Service, Bobby Singh who runs the cable operation in north Kashmir said that the Baramulla district magistrate directed cable operators on Friday evening to stop beaming the Pakistani state-run TV channel, and four private TV channels. The authorities have also directed us to block a Pakistani religious channel, he added. The authorities have given no reason for banning the Pakistani channels, he added. Baramulla Deputy Commissioner Bashir Ahmed Butt confirmed imposition of the ban. app


Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## Mogambo

Jana said:


> They not only marched in Indian Occupied Kashmir invaded by India, but Kashmiris also marched in Indian cities against Indian State Terrorism
> 
> 
> *Kashmiris protest in Delhi, pune against civilian killings in IHK*
> Submitted 1 hr 9 mins ago
> 
> 
> Kashmiris staying in New Delhi and Pune staged peaceful protests demanding an end to the spate of killings by Indian troops and police in occupied Kashmir.
> According to Kashmir Media Service, Kashmiri businessmen, students, doctors, academicians and several other professionals converged on Parliament Street near Jantar Mantar in New Delhi and staged a sit-in to condemn the gross human rights violations by Indian forces in the occupied territory.
> 
> The protestors demanded repeal of the Armed Forces Special Forces Act (AFSPA), due to which the troopers operating in Jammu and Kashmir enjoyed impunity.
> Kashmiri students also took out a peaceful rally in Pune. Carrying posters in their hands, the students said that objective of the rally was to make people aware of the problems faced by common civilians in occupied Kashmir.
> 
> Kashmiris protest in Delhi, pune against civilian killings in IHK | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online



*
This is the real news not from some puppet and fake organization just to spread propaganda.*

*Kashmiris protest in capital against violence in valley
*
New Delhi: Kashmiri families living in the capital, including businessmen, professionals and students today staged a silent sit-in here against the recent violence across the valley and appealed for a dialogue at the earliest to settle the issue.

The protesters also urged that steps should be taken for early repeal of Armed Forces Special Powers Act and other 'black' laws.

"Life is completely paralysed in Kashmir. We need the solution of the problem at the grassroot level," said Saleem Altaf, a doctor.

*The general feeling among the protesters was that a dialogue process should start where the commoners' demands are heard by both the governments at the Centre and the state.*

After nearly a week, curfew was today lifted in the entire Kashmir valley in view of the situation remaining generally peaceful but prohibitory orders have been imposed in Baramulla, Anantnag and Pulwama districts besides some parts of Srinagar.

Kashmiris protest in capital against violence in valley - dnaindia.com


The above news busted the myth and says that Kashmiri are protesting against the violence i.e. stone pelting and police's strong action.


*They are asking for dialogue that Govt. of India and Jammu & Kashmir should talk and dissolve the misunderstanding so that foreign propaganda can't take its toll. *


*Kashmiri are protesting as everybody protest in a civil and democratic country.

And India is providing platform to protest to its own Kashmiri people proves India is a secular democracy and busted the propaganda.*


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## mjnaushad

*Pak channels banned in north Kashmir*

Majid Jahangir
Tags : North Kashmir, Pakistani channels
Posted: Sun Jul 11 2010, 03:46 hrs
Baramulla:

The J-K government has banned the beaming of Pakistani channels in the trouble-torn areas of North Kashmir which continue to be on edge. Cable operators in Baramulla and Sopore have been directed by the authorities to block five Pakistani based news channels and a religious channel with immediate effect.

&#8220;We were asked by the Baramulla district Magistrate on Friday evening to stop beaming of PTV, Geo TV, ARY, Dawn News and Express 24X7 news. They also directed us to block the Pakistani religious channel, Noor TV,&#8221; said Bobby Singh who runs the cable operation in north Kashmir.

Singh said that all these channels were free to air and were being beamed by the local cable operators to thousands of their subscribers . &#8220;The authorities have given no reason for banning the Pakistani channels,&#8221; Singh said.

Deputy Commissioner Baramulla, Bashir Ahmed Bhat confirmed the imposition of the ban on the Pakistani channels. &#8220;As per the orders we have directed the cable operators to block all the Pakistan-based channels in Baramulla and Sopore,&#8221; Bhat told The Sunday Express


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## mjnaushad

IHK authorities ban beaming of Pak channels in north Kashmir | Kashmir Media Service


*IHK authorities ban beaming of Pak channels in north Kashmir*

Srinagar, July 11 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, the authorities have banned the beaming of Pakistani channels in North Kashmir.

The authorities have directed the cable operators in Baramulla and Sopore to block five Pakistani news channels and a religious channel with immediate effect.

&#8220;We were asked by the Baramulla district Magistrate on Friday evening to stop beaming of PTV, Geo TV, ARY News, Dawn News and Express 24/7. They also directed us to block the Pakistani religious channel, Noor TV,&#8221; Bobby Singh who runs the cable operation in north Kashmir told mediamen. He said that all these channels were being beamed by the local cable operators to thousands of their subscribers. &#8220;The authorities have given no reason for banning the Pakistani channels,&#8221; he added.

Deputy Commissioner Baramulla, Bashir Ahmed Butt, confirmed imposition of the ban on the Pakistani channels. &#8220;As per the orders we have directed the cable operators to block all the Pakistan-based channels in Baramulla and Sopore,&#8221; Deputy Commissioner told newsmen.

Meanwhile, Indian police have registered a case against a New Delhi-based private television news channel under various Sections of law.

To protest against the high-handed approach of the authorities towards the journalists in occupied Kashmir, the editors, scribes, video journalists and photojournalists staged a protest demonstration at the press enclave in Srinagar. They had tied black cloth around their mouth, symbolising the curbs and restrictions imposed on their functioning.

Earlier, in a meeting the Kashmir Press Association, Press Guild of Kashmir, Kashmir Journalists Corps, Kashmir Press Photographers Association and Kashmir Video Journalists Association strongly denounced the strong-arm measures of the authorities to curb smooth functioning of media in the occupied territory. A joint statement after the meeting said that a decision was unanimously taken that publication of newspapers could not be resumed unless concrete measures were taken by the authorities to restore complete freedom of media.


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## mjnaushad

Indian members always say on Pakistan banning Indian channel that "let people watch what they want to watch". Then why are they not letting Kashmiris watch what they want to watch.


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## Dr.Evil

Simple are Indian News channels shown in pakistan ?

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## Mogambo

mjnaushad said:


> Indian members always say on Pakistan banning Indian channel that "let people watch what they want to watch". Then why are they not letting Kashmiris watch what they want to watch.



because we are at war with some evil forces called terrorist and their supporters in Kashmir and in war everything is fair. 

We can't let terrorist to use media to spread fake propaganda and spoil the peace in the valley.

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## mjnaushad

Dr.Evil said:


> Simple are Indian News channels shown in pakistan ?


You guys say let them watch what they want to watch............Why double standard now.....???

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## mjnaushad

And BTW whats wrong in religious channels....They don't even touch Kashmir issue....

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## ek_indian

We want freedom: I must admit it is GoI fault. We must invest in education. So that they know we (India) got independence in 1947.

Blood for blood: There is nothing new in this. This is followed all over India barring some exceptional cases, lack of availability etc. If you need one unit blood, you will have to donate same quantity of blood (nor necessary of same group).


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## indian navy

mjnaushad said:


> You guys say let them watch what they want to watch............Why double standard now.....???



he asked a question just say yes or no 

Indian news channel is live in Pakistan or not ??

simple question

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## mjnaushad

indian navy said:


> no they don't have answer


No we dont....

But i want to know your standard that "let them watch what they want to watch" why is only limited when Pakistan ban any channels....Why don't i see same reaction when your own govt ban something?

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## mjnaushad

indian navy said:


> he asked a question just say yes or no
> 
> Indian news channel is live in Pakistan or not ??
> 
> simple question


I asked a simple question......Why double standards....????


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## indian navy

mjnaushad said:


> No we dont....
> 
> But i want to know your standard that "let them watch what they want to watch" why is only limited when Pakistan ban any channels....Why don't i see same reaction when your own govt ban something?



now who is showing double stand you can block our channel when we lock your then you start crying

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## Ganga

I am actually a bit shocked that these channels were actually allowed in such a volatile region.Its a good move.

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## EjazR

Not only Indian Kashmiris, but all Indians will protest against HR violations. Those who don't are not real Indians. In Delhi Pune and Bangalore locals joined hand with Kashmiris to protest against these. It is our democratic right.

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## indian navy

mjnaushad said:


> I asked a simple question......Why double standards....????



i asked also simple question you can block channel and we cant now why double standard

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## schneider

very good move!!

I am just wondering why were they even allowed????

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## mjnaushad

indian navy said:


> now who is showing double stand you can block our channel when we lock your then you start crying


Haha......So we blocking your channel is wrong but you blocking our channel is right.....This is double standard....I never said you shouldn't so i am not on double standard.....I just want to know why you have double standard.....

When we block "let them watch what they want to watch"

When you block " Good move".

---------- Post added at 05:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:49 PM ----------




indian navy said:


> i asked also simple question you can block channel and we cant now why double standard


Read post 18

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## GUNNER

SRINAGAR, July 12, 2010 (AFP) - Shops, schools and offices were shut for a second day in Indian Kashmir on Monday as politicians met to discuss how to end weeks of violent and deadly street protests against security forces.

Indian troops have been struggling to control a wave of demonstrations in the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley after being accused of killing 15 civilians -- many of them teenagers -- since the first death of 17-year old on June 11.

Authorities lifted a rigid curfew on Sunday across Kashmir after an uneasy calm returned to the major towns, but all activity ground to a halt after separatists called a strike.

In the summer capital of Indian Kashmir, chief minister Omar Abdullah convened a meeting of pro-India local politicians to find a way out of the cycle of protests and disruption.

"The all-parties meeting is underway to discuss the current situation and find ways to end the unrest," an official spokesman in Abdullah's office said.

New Delhi has blamed separatists and militant groups for instigating the protests, which are seen by most people locally as a spontaneous reaction to perceived abuses by security forces, economic stagnation and political deadlock.

Newspapers in Kashmir were again on stands for the first time in four days. Passes for journalists enabling them to travel despite curfew restrictions were cancelled by the authorities


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## Markus

schneider said:


> very good move!!
> 
> I am just wondering why were they even allowed????



Exactly.

Even I was surprised that we were allowing these channels until now.

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## Dr.Evil

When pak channels are fuelling the fire and istigating the separatists and their paid henchmen, this is good step to calm the situation.

Entertainment channels are still available, there is no need to make an issue of it.

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## Markus

mjnaushad said:


> I asked a simple question......Why double standards....????



Indian channels broadcast Indian views. Pakistani channels broadcast Pakistani views.

We dont want our youngsters to get exposed to cross border brain washing, hence we have banned ur channels. J&K is Indian terrotory, hence they have been banned there as well.

Your government has replied in the same manner by banning Indian channels.

The current configuration looks fine. What do u say?

You watch ur channels and we will watch ours.

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## merajahmed

Every Pakistani members are seems to interested only in Kashmir freedom movement but I have not seen any member supported the Baluchistan freedom movement are they are not human or they don't deserve the any support. Baluchistan is become like a jail no media is allowed there because of that civilian casualties may come to media or known to other part of the world.


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## Patriot

Dr.Evil said:


> Simple are Indian News channels shown in pakistan ?



Yes, you can watch all Indian channels in Pakistan.


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## Patriot

Markus said:


> Indian channels broadcast Indian views. Pakistani channels broadcast Pakistani views.
> 
> We dont want our youngsters to get exposed to cross border brain washing, hence we have banned ur channels. J&K is Indian terrotory, hence they have been banned there as well.
> 
> Your government has replied in the same manner by banning Indian channels.
> 
> The current configuration looks fine. What do u say?
> 
> You watch ur channels and we will watch ours.


They're not banned - It's just you who like censorship hence banned Pakistani Channels.Yeah I am sure your youth will be brainwashed by our channels..The hypocrisy and double standard of Indians is starling.You would like to act virgin everytime.


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## Markus

Patriot said:


> They're not banned - It's just you who like censorship hence banned Pakistani Channels.Yeah I am sure your youth will be brainwashed by our channels..The hypocrisy and double standard of Indians is starling.You would like to act virgin everytime.



If we dont want to watch ur channels then how can u force us to watch?

Are u telling me that no Indian channel is banned in ur country then u r certainly not living in Pakistan. 

Call it hypocrisy or double standards, we dont want to watch ur channels. Sorry.

And yes, the youth does get brainwashed, they are young and get poisoned easily.

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## majesticpankaj

Patriot said:


> They're not banned - It's just you who like censorship hence banned Pakistani Channels.Yeah I am sure your youth will be brainwashed by our channels..The hypocrisy and double standard of Indians is starling.You would like to act virgin everytime.


hey, its simple, we don't wanna see your channel. ur country have banned our movies and channels in pakistan for so long. now we did the same, u feeling the pain?? on the other, indians channels, movies are very popular in pakistan. dare to refute it. even your generals and prime ministers watch indians movies, dont u watch???


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## Markus

Markus said:


> If we dont want to watch ur channels then how can u force us to watch?
> 
> Are u telling me that no Indian channel is banned in ur country then u r certainly not living in Pakistan.
> 
> Call it hypocrisy or double standards, we dont want to watch ur channels. Sorry.
> 
> And yes, the youth does get brainwashed, they are young and get poisoned easily.



And just to add, we have like 150+ Indian channels in our cities, so no time to watch outside channels also.


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## ice_man

Dr.Evil said:


> Simple are Indian News channels shown in pakistan ?



yaa!!  please tell me you knew that!!!


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## ice_man

Dr.Evil said:


> When pak channels are fuelling the fire and istigating the separatists and their paid henchmen, this is good step to calm the situation.
> 
> Entertainment channels are still available, there is no need to make an issue of it.



please give me proof of one such incident when PAKISTANI CHANNELS FUELLED OR INSTIGATED THE SEPRATISTS!!! ANY CHANNEL!!! waiting for your reply with proof!


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## RescueRanger

Now how are people going to see "Mera Namn hey muhabat"? This is an outrage, get the lynch mob together, im off to see the Indian High Commissioner


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## Areesh

Futile attempt by the GOI. Sooner or later India has to move it's butt out of IOK. I wonder why they take such useless actions.

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## Spring Onion

Dr.Evil said:


> Simple are Indian News channels shown in pakistan ?



Cable operators are not stopped from showing Indian news channels. And Punjab's areas India get Indian channels even through normal antenna, the Govt of Pakistan did not take any measure to stop the signals unlike Indian orange govt


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## Areesh

merajahmed said:


> Every Pakistani members are seems to interested only in Kashmir freedom movement but I have not seen any member supported the Baluchistan freedom movement are they are not human or they don't deserve the any support. Baluchistan is become like a jail no media is allowed there because of that civilian casualties may come to media or known to other part of the world.



Balochistan is Pakistan's internal matter and not a disputed territory unlike IOK. You don't increase your blood pressure level for it.



---------- Post added at 07:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:41 PM ----------




alex mercer said:


> from when,when they shown some videos which is a classic example of bastards working for bastards to create tensions



Why are you getting so bastard. Frustration. Grow up kid. Post something sane.


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## Spring Onion

majesticpankaj said:


> hey, its simple, *we don't wanna see your channel.* ur country have banned our movies and channels in pakistan for so long. now we did the same, u feeling the pain?? on the other, indians channels, movies are very popular in pakistan. dare to refute it. even your generals and prime ministers watch indians movies, dont u watch???




WE??????? We are not talking about Bhartis aka Indians we are talking about Kashmiris and the showing of Pakistani Private NEWS channels by cable operators proves that People of Kashmir want to watch these unbiased, neutral news sources instead of Indian propaganda.


The forced ban by Indian occupying govt proves that Bhartis are afraid of truth and bhartis know in their heart that Kashmiris want to watch these channels.

Big PERIOD

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## hillman32

*The order is an act of frustration. Pakistani channels have been banned in the "largest democracy in the world" because the Pakistani channels discussed and showed the mass graves of Kashmiris. The mass graves are for victims of the excesses of the 100,000 Indian security forces that are present in Occupied Jammu and Kashmir.

Obviously the present puppet government in Occupied Jammu and Kashmir does not want the denizens of the valley to be aware that the Indian Security forces murdered and then buried innocent Kashmiri civilians in mass graves.

The situation appears to be heading toward 1947 situation when hot potatoes were stuck into the mouths of people who listened to Radio Pakistan. 

But I believe the blocking of TV channels is not going to make a major difference. All channels are available on Internet and those can be watch on smaller screen.*

_"suchai jhup nahin sukti banawat keh asoolon seh

kushboo aa nahin suktee kaghaz keh phoolon seh"_


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## mavvrick_111

Ma da laadla bigad gaya


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## Spring Onion

sunakaffck said:


> humm...... nahhh still gay



 ekkkkkk thats why its Gayhind these day


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## Spring Onion

Break the Silence said:


> *China is providing tacit support to Pakistan in its jihadi strategy with an aim to pin down half a million Indian troops in Kashmir, a leading European security expert has said.*
> *Beijing has provided direct protection to these terrorist groups at the UN Security Council's 1267 committee, blocking efforts against Jamaat-ud-Dawa (the Lashkar-e-Tayiba front)," Andrew Small, an European expert has said.*
> 
> *Writing in the latest issues of the Washington Quarterly journal, Small of German Marshall Fund of the US said that the Chinese managed to bar action against JuD, until political pressure on Pakistan escalated after the LeT involvement in the November 2008 Mumbai attacks.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Labelling the Chinese policy as that of "managing tensions" in the South Asian region, the security expert said this was at odds with the US which was working hard to convince Pakistan to move away from India-centric military strategy*.
> 
> *Small also said that China had propped up Pakistan's conventional military capabilities by providing full spectrum of support to Islamabad's air and land missiles and 'tacit support for the jihadi strategy that has helped to bind half-a-million troops in Kashmir.*'
> 
> Based in Brussels, Small noted that the Chinese approach in the case of its ****** policy is 'proving increasingly' unsuccessful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"As is true of its foreign policy elsewhere, China pursues a relatively narrow conception of its interests in Afghanistan and Pakistan, rather than supporting a more widely shared set of goals," he said.*
> 
> *"Security for its workers and major investment projects has deteriorated the Chinese while the US role in the region has expanded, much to Beijng's discomfort," Small said. *
> "There is a debate starting in China about whether a strategic reassessment is needed, which has already resulted in a few tactical shifts on Beijing's part. But until China is forced to go through a more fundamental reappraisal of its strategy for dealing with extremism in the region, prospects for the US and China to pursue complementary policies will remain limited," he said.
> 
> "The strength of the Tehrik-i-Taliban (TTP) has also been a concern to China. While initially sanguine about the Pakistani government's deals in Swat and Buner, they became increasingly worried that the writ of the Pakistani state was running out in a territory that runs dangerously close to the principal Sino-Pakistani trade route, the KKH," he said.




 kis idiot ne yeh bakwas likhi ha jiss ka na sar ha na pair


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## Honor

sunakaffck said:


> its like brokeback mountain 2



I see many Indians doing that in Singapore! Sometime they hold by last fingers not hands!


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

sunakaffck said:


> humm...... nahhh still gay



Have respect for other peoples culture, you may live in a western society where that may be considered homosexual, but in another society yhat may represent something else. One example is the french "kissing" on the cheek on another man, when in fact it is more having the face nearer to the others at a rotated angle. Such ignorance can only be bad, as is evident from a lot of conflicts.


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## sparklingway

Why the hell would they support jihadis in Kashmir when they know that this spirit is causing them problems in Xinjiang already. 

You think they are stupid to create problems for themselves? I think not.

Tell the idiot who authored this to waste his time over something else.


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## majesticpankaj

Jana said:


> WE??????? We are not talking about Bhartis aka Indians we are talking about Kashmiris and the showing of Pakistani Private NEWS channels by cable operators proves that People of Kashmir want to watch these unbiased, *neutral news* sources instead of Indian propaganda.
> 
> 
> The forced ban by Indian occupying govt proves that Bhartis are afraid of truth and bhartis know in their heart that Kashmiris want to watch these channels.
> 
> Big PERIOD



kashmiris are indians, they use indian passport and indian documents. and as per parliament, kasmir is integral part of india. we consider them as indian. pls accept the reality. by saying ur news channel neutral , u substantiate my claim.

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## Dr.Evil

Jana said:


> Cable operators are not stopped from showing Indian news channels. And Punjab's areas India get Indian channels even through normal antenna, the Govt of Pakistan did not take any measure to stop the signals unlike Indian orange govt



Until a few days ago, you guys were crying no pak channels were being shown in India. Which all lies being propagated by some pak members on this forum

Now that we are stopping pak news channels ( propaganda channels ) you are crying again.

Weren't some members on this forum saying Indian cable operators must provide all the pak channels even if they dont want to.

Your hypocracy knows no bounds, atleast stick to one stand.

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## navtrek

Honor said:


> I see many Indians doing that in Singapore! Sometime they hold by last fingers not hands!



There is a Russel peter joke on this. But they are not really gay.


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## Dr.Evil

hillman32 said:


> *The order is an act of frustration. Pakistani channels have been banned in the "largest democracy in the world" because the Pakistani channels discussed and showed the mass graves of Kashmiris. The mass graves are for victims of the excesses of the 100,000 Indian security forces that are present in Occupied Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> Obviously the present puppet government in Occupied Jammu and Kashmir does not want the denizens of the valley to be aware that the Indian Security forces murdered and then buried innocent Kashmiri civilians in mass graves.
> 
> The situation appears to be heading toward 1947 situation when hot potatoes were stuck into the mouths of people who listened to Radio Pakistan.
> 
> But I believe the blocking of TV channels is not going to make a major difference. All channels are available on Internet and those can be watch on smaller screen.*
> 
> _"suchai jhup nahin sukti banawat keh asoolon seh
> 
> kushboo aa nahin suktee kaghaz keh phoolon seh"_



How many times were indian channels banned in Pakistan and every second day, your senators ask for their banning in the parliment.

Even to this day no Indian news channels are available in pakistan.

Stop whining now.

*We are still allowing pak based entertainment channels and just stopped propaganda news channels.*


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## Hafizzz

Honor said:


> I see many Indians doing that in Singapore! Sometime they hold by last fingers not hands!




http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/business/global/01outbiz.html


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## ek_indian

I admit I did not read the article. But topic was utter nonsense.

If we need to learn something from our neighbour, developing conspiracy theories must not be one of them.


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## Dr.Evil

sparklingway said:


> Why the hell would they support jihadis in Kashmir when they know that this spirit is causing them problems in Xinjiang already.
> 
> You think they are stupid to create problems for themselves? I think not.
> 
> Tell the idiot who authored this to waste his time over something else.



Its not the Jihadi's they support directly but the pak govt. which they protect.

Even when JUD was being sanctioned and banned in the UN, China tried their best to help pak out of the difficult situation.

In that sense they are indirectly helping the Jihadis.


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## sparklingway

Dr.Evil said:


> Its not the Jihadi's they support directly but the pak govt. which they protect.



So by your logic if A supports B, and B kills C, then A should share some guilt for the crime?



> Even when JUD was being sanctioned and banned in the UN, China tried their best to help pak out of the difficult situation.



JuD being banned in the UN is some serious business and we protested it since we had not yet established their direct role. China stood by our stance.



> In that sense they are indirectly helping the Jihadis.



Wrong logic and completely stupid news article since that states that China is somehow directly sheltering people involved in terrorism.


----------



## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Futile attempt by the GOI. Sooner or later India has to move it's butt out of IOK. I wonder why they take such useless actions.



Fiutile exercise by some Pakstanis for last 60 years. Sooner or Later, they will need to start getting bothered with whats happening inside their country instead of whats happening outside it. The results of doing that are not looking good at this time..

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## Dr.Evil

sparklingway said:


> JuD being banned in the UN is some serious business and we protested it since we had not yet established their direct role. China stood by our stance.



Even to this it had not been established that JUD is is terrorist organisation according to pakistan but it does not have qualms about arresting its office bearers today and sealing more of its office. 

Pakistan does not have the will to take action against any terrorist organistation acting against India.


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## Frankenstein

indian navy said:


> i asked also simple question you can block channel and we cant now why double standard



Last time I checked, There were some star channels like star plus, star world bla bla, working well in Pakistan??


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## Dr.Evil

Frankenstein said:


> Last time I checked, There were some star channels like star plus, star world bla bla, working well in Pakistan??



They are entertainment channels not News Channels.

Indian News Channels are banned in Pakistan from a long time.


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## sec9941

why its Banned 

strange another blame game


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## Dr.Evil

sec9941 said:


> why its Banned
> is Pakistani Channel Show cows???



Atleast try to complete the sentence, understandable to everyone.

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## s90

Are Pakistani entertainment channels accessible to you guys?


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## Sudesh Lahri

No sir, we dont even know the names of pakistani channel except for PTV and geo news.

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## owcc

for me its PTV and DAWN news beyond these two I dont know any Pakistani channel


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## s90

Sudesh Lahri said:


> No sir, we dont even know the names of pakistani channel except for PTV and geo news.



Well we have all of yours here. Atleast we should be able to watch eachothers channels!


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## riju78

Jana said:


> Cable operators are not stopped from showing Indian news channels. And Punjab's areas India get Indian channels even through normal antenna, the Govt of Pakistan did not take any measure to stop the signals unlike Indian orange govt



sorry for going off topic but what does the colour orange signify??? i have seen u using orange media before and now orange govt..
pls explain..thank u

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

majesticpankaj said:


> kashmiris are indians, they use indian passport and indian documents. and as per parliament, kasmir is integral part of india. we consider them as indian. pls accept the reality. by saying ur news channel neutral , u substantiate my claim.



They only use Indian documents because they are under occupation and have to comply with the rules and laws of the occupying authority.
*
Move on back to the topic please.*


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> Fiutile exercise by some Pakstanis for last 60 years. Sooner or Later, they will need to start getting bothered with whats happening inside their country instead of whats happening outside it. The results of doing that are not looking good at this time..



We are bother what is going in our home. We are not like those who can't see the broiler murgha slaughter in their home. But it is necessary to keep an eye on tyrants occupying illegally territory of someone else. Keeping tyrants frustrated and crying is important and that is what we are doing right now.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Fiutile exercise by some Pakstanis for last 60 years. Sooner or Later, they will need to start getting bothered with whats happening inside their country instead of whats happening outside it. The results of doing that are not looking good at this time..



IoK is also potentially part of Pakistan, given that it is disputed territory pending the Kashmiris exercising their right to self-determination as was the condition in the Instrument of Accession as well as the UNSC resolutions agreed to by India and Pakistan.

So Pakistanis are 'worrying' about what they should be - both the territories currently in Pakistan as well as disputed territories awaiting the decision of the people resident there.

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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ....pending the Kashmiris exercising their right to self-determination as was the condition in the Instrument of Accession...


There is no such condition in the Instrument of Accession.



> ....as well as the UNSC resolutions agreed to by India and Pakistan.


...provided certain conditions are fulfilled.

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## sec9941




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## Dr.Evil

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> IoK is also potentially part of Pakistan, given that it is disputed territory pending the Kashmiris exercising their right to self-determination as was the condition in the Instrument of Accession as well as the UNSC resolutions agreed to by India and Pakistan.
> 
> So Pakistanis are 'worrying' about what they should be - both the territories currently in Pakistan as well as disputed territories awaiting the decision of the people resident there.



Pak occuppied Kashmir is also potential part of India.

Are Indian News channels availabe in Pak occupied Kashmir ?

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## schneider

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> IoK is also potentially part of Pakistan, given that it is disputed territory pending the Kashmiris exercising their right to self-determination as was the condition in the Instrument of Accession as well as the UNSC resolutions agreed to by India and Pakistan.
> 
> So Pakistanis are 'worrying' about what they should be - both the territories currently in Pakistan as well as disputed territories awaiting the decision of the people resident there.



Its disputed for you, not for us. You have a big role in destabilizing Kashmir economically, not Indian government. This chap, Syed Geelani, speaks of martyrdom, just ask him how much does he get from across the Border?? Recently our intelligence intercepted the voice from one of the separatist leader and a terrorist sitting in *Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (PART OF THE UNION OF INDIA)*. " atleast 15 should be shaheed per day" this is your love to Kashmiris. 

What UNSC resolution on what basis??? first resettle those 3 hundred thousand Kashmiri Families who have been in exile from their city and village in Kashmir from the last 20 years, stop violating cease fire at LOC and stop sending your so called Mujahid in other words TERRORISTS... and you are speaking of Plebiscite. 

Sara hisab karenge ruk jao tum!!!!

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## civfanatic

Markus said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Even I was surprised that we were allowing these channels until now.



Coz without them Cable operators would even stop showing Indian channels


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

schneider said:


> Its disputed for you, not for us. You have a big role in destabilizing Kashmiri families economically, not Indian government. What disputed for us is you have occupied our land. This chap, Syed Geelani, speaks of martyrdom, just ask him how much does he get from across the Border?? Recently our intelligence intercepted the voice from one of the separatist leader and a terrorist sitting in *Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (PART OF THE UNION OF INDIA)*. " atleast 15 should be shaheed per day" this is your love to Kashmiris.


India accepted the condition of plebiscite as part of the Instrument of accession as well as under the UNSC resolutions, so to argue that 'J&K is not disputed' flies in the face of what India and the UN has already agreed to.


> What UNSC resolution on what basis??? first resettle those 3 hundred thousand Kashmiris who have been in exile from their home Land Kashmir from the last 20 years, stop violating cease fire at LOC and stop sending your so called Mujahid in other words TERRORISTS... and you are speaking of Plebiscite.
> 
> Sara hisab karenge ruk jao tum!!!!


The UNSC resolutions AND the condition of plebiscite under the Instrument of Accession, both accepted by India and Pakistan - that basis. As for resettlement, no one has argued against resettlement or not tracking and taking into account the votes of the Pandits, or for that matter the million or so Kashmiris from AK settled in Europe, especially the UK.

As for 'stop violating the ceasefire', that occurs just as much from your side, so Indians certainly have no room to be pointing fingers on that count, and as for any other progress, as soon as India indicates that it will stop reneging on its pledge to allow the Kashmiris to exercise self-determination and move towards ending its occupation.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Dr.Evil said:


> Pak occuppied Kashmir is also potential part of India.


Certainly, please 'worry' about it and try to raise the issue internationally about 'settling the dispute' 

Pakistan will say certainly, in accordance with wishes of the Kashmiris, as accepted in the UNSC resolutions and the Instrument of Accession, both committed to by India. 



> Are Indian News channels availabe in Pak occupied Kashmir ?


Since I don't live in Azad Kashmir I have no clue.

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## Areesh

Dr.Evil said:


> Pak occuppied Kashmir is also potential part of India.
> 
> Are Indian News channels availabe in Pak occupied Kashmir ?



Their is no such thing as Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Nobody knows anything about it. It doesn't exist on this earth. Does it exist on mars?



I never knew that there is Kashmir on mars also.


----------



## schneider

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> India accepted the condition of plebiscite as part of the Instrument of accession as well as under the UNSC resolutions, so to argue that 'J&K is not disputed' flies in the face of what India and the UN has already agreed to.


 and what are those conditions kindly light up. 



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The UNSC resolutions AND the condition of plebiscite under the Instrument of Accession, both accepted by India and Pakistan - that basis. As for resettlement, no one has argued against resettlement or not tracking and taking into account the votes of the Pandits, or for that matter the million or so Kashmiris from AK settled in Europe, especially the UK.
> 
> As for 'stop violating the ceasefire', that occurs just as much from your side, so Indians certainly have no room to be pointing fingers on that count, and as for any other progress, as soon as India indicates that it will stop reneging on its pledge to allow the Kashmiris to exercise self-determination and move towards ending its occupation.



No plebiscite unless until terrorism is stopped and invader leaves the land!!! 

above is the answer of my question to you.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> There is no such condition in the Instrument of Accession.


Under the rules governing accessions there is, hence the Indian decision to hold a referendum in Junagadh after its forces invaded and occupied it despite the accession of the Nawad to Pakistan. Mountabtten's comments in accepting the Instrument of Accession further confirm that. 



> ...provided certain conditions are fulfilled.


Can't fulfill conditions when India blatantly rejects and refuses to implement the UNSC resolutions, despite committing to them when they were passed.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

schneider said:


> and what are those conditions kindly light up.


The condition of plebiscite, as pointed out in my post you responded to ...



> No plebiscite unless until terrorism is stopped and invader leaves the land!!!
> 
> above is the answer of my question to you.


BS and the usual Indian verbal gimmickry and dissemblance - there was no 'terrorism' when Nehru and India chose to unilaterally move away from implementing the UNSC resolutions in the fifties and annex IoK.

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## civfanatic

sunakaffck said:


> now that's gay..






[[/IMG]

No this is gay


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Areesh said:


> Their is no such thing as Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Nobody knows anything about it. It doesn't exist on this earth. Does it exist on mars?


Exactly - we can't be 'occupying' it when we are committed to the resolution of the dispute in accordance with the wishes of the people of the territory of J&K, through plebiscite, as outlined in the UNSC resolutions.

The nation that blatantly refuses to allow plebiscite and rejects the UNSC resolutions and right of plebiscite that it committed to is the one doing the 'occupation'.


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## schneider

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Under the rules governing accessions there is, hence the Indian decision to hold a referendum in Junagadh after its forces invaded and occupied it despite the accession of the Nawad to Pakistan. Mountabtten's comments in accepting the Instrument of Accession further confirm that.



*Why did your Forces Invade kashmir????* what were your Intentions??? When there was already a stand still??? 





AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Can't fulfill conditions when India blatantly rejects and refuses to implement the UNSC resolutions, despite committing to them when they were passed.



Invader has setelled in kashmir after 1948, we will not accept any conditions or any plebiscite.

Plus recently Kashmir had elections and majority of people gave their votes. Had it been against the Government of India, no one would have even came out of the house!

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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The condition of plebiscite, as pointed out in my post you responded to ...
> 
> 
> BS and the usual Indian verbal gimmickry and dissemblance - there was *no 'terrorism' when Nehru and India chose to unilaterally move away from implementing the UNSC resolutions* in the fifties and annex IoK.



*Yes but Pakistan did invade Kashmir in 47 and then again in 65..so now you can't ask India for a plebiscite.*

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## schneider

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Exactly - we can't be 'occupying' it when we are committed to the resolution of the dispute in accordance with the wishes of the people of the territory of J&K, through plebiscite, as outlined in the UNSC resolutions.
> 
> The nation that blatantly refuses to allow plebiscite and rejects the UNSC resolutions and right of plebiscite that it committed to is the one doing the 'occupation'.



Then why you call it a disputed territory. Because as per the geographical and historical boundary Kashmir extends till your Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, the Northern areas!!!!

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## schneider

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> *Yes but Pakistan did invade Kashmir in 47 and then again in 65..so you can't ask India for plebiscite.*



That's the Point!!!

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> *Yes but Pakistan did invade Kashmir in 47 and then again in 65..so you can't ask India for plebiscite.*



The plebiscite outlined in the UNSC resolutions as a means to resolve the Kashmir dispute was agreed to after the 1948 war, and India had already reneged on its commitment to hold a plebiscite (and moved to annex the occupied territories officially) before the 1965 war, so you cannot blame the Indian decision to renege on its commitment to the international community, to Pakistan, and above all to the Kashmiris (to allow a plebiscite to determine final status) on either one of the two issues you mentioned above.

---------- Post added at 03:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:27 PM ----------




schneider said:


> *Then why you call it a disputed territory. *Because as per the geographical and historical boundary Kashmir extends till your Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, the Northern areas!!!!



Because it is an unsettled dispute ...


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Under the rules governing accessions there is...


No. There is none.



> ...hence the Indian decision to hold a referendum in Junagadh after its forces invaded and occupied it despite the accession of the Nawad to Pakistan.


India's decision to hold referendum in Junagadh had nothing to do with any rule. It was pursuant to India's own policy that people of the state should vet any accession decided by the Ruler, in case where there was an apparent conflict of interest. 

And, India didn't invade Junagadh. Shahnawaz Bhutto, the dewan of Junagadh had formally requested India to take over the law and order situation in Junagadh, on 8th Nov, 1947 before he fled to Pakistan. IA marched into Junagadh accordingly, on 9th Nov, 1947. 


> Mountabtten's comments in accepting the Instrument of Accession further confirm that.


As I said, there is nothing in the body of the Instrument that says the it is being accepted on any condition that the finality would be decided by referendum. Mountbatten's reply was in accordance to India's policy that people of the state should get to decide on the finality of any accession in case of any conflict of interest. 


> Can't fulfill conditions when India blatantly rejects and refuses to implement the UNSC resolutions, despite committing to them when they were passed.


India's responsibility arises once Pakistan has fulfilled it's own.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

schneider said:


> Plus recently Kashmir had elections and majority of people gave their votes. Had it been against the Government of India, no one would have even came out of the house!


Lie to yourself all you want, but were you truly confident of Kashmiri loyalty to India, you would not still be refusing to hold a neutral plebiscite in Kashmir.


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## schneider

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The plebiscite outlined in the UNSC resolutions as a means to resolve the Kashmir dispute was agreed to after the 1948 war, and India had already reneged on its commitment to hold a plebiscite (and moved to annex the occupied territories officially) before the 1965 war, so you cannot blame the Indian decision to renege on its commitment to the international community, to Pakistan, and above all to the Kashmiris (to allow a plebiscite to determine final status) on either one of the two issues you mentioned above.




That's why you invaded it in 1999 again! 



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Because it is an unsettled dispute ...



You are creating dispute not Indians!

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## schneider

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Lie to yourself all you want, but were you truly confident of Kashmiri loyalty to India, you would not still be refusing to hold a neutral plebiscite in Kashmir.



why should we hold plebiscite??? Because Pakistan invaded it 3 times??
you are joking!!!

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## owcc

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Lie to yourself all you want, but were you truly confident of Kashmiri loyalty to India, you would not still be refusing to hold a neutral plebiscite in Kashmir.



Whatever we say here ground reality wont change.There will never be a plebiscite in Kashmir,the kashmir under Indian control will remain with India unless someone with a bigger gun than India coms along to interfere in the issue.Rather than wasting resources discussing an issue both India and Pakistan must concentrate on its on internal matters.

Its easy to be EMOTIONAL but much harder to be PRAGMATIC

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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The plebiscite outlined in the UNSC resolutions as a means to resolve the Kashmir dispute was agreed to after the 1948 war,



Agreed



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> and India had already reneged on its commitment to hold a plebiscite (and moved to annex the occupied territories officially) before the 1965 war, so you cannot blame the Indian decision to renege on its commitment to the international community, to Pakistan, and above all to the Kashmiris (to allow a plebiscite to determine final status) on either one of the two issues you mentioned above.




I see your POV.."since Pakistan thought India was not going to hold a plebiscite , it decided to take Kashmir by force."

*But now since you have already tried taking it by force..how can you expect India to honor its pre 65 commitment, when you yourself have tried all other means and failed.
*

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> No. There is none.


Mountbatten (Meeting of Defence committee October 27):
_
In the special circumstances mentioned by Your Highness, my Government have decided to accept the accession of Kashmir State to the Dominion of India. *Consistently with their policy that, in the case of any State where the issue of accession has been the subject of dispute, the question of accession should be decided in accordance with the wishes of the people of the State*, it is my wish that as soon as law and order have been restored in Kashmir and its soil cleared of the invader, the question of the States accession should be settled by a reference to the people.​_


> India's decision to hold referendum in Junagadh had nothing to do with any rule. It was pursuant to India's own policy that people of the state should vet any accession decided by the Ruler, in case where there was an apparent conflict of interest.


Whatever additional motivations India had in conducting a referendum in Junagadh after invading and occupying it, under the rules of partition and accession of States a referendum was necessary, as highlighted above.


> And, India didn't invade Junagadh. Shahnawaz Bhutto, the dewan of Junagadh had formally requested India to take over the law and order situation in Junagadh, on 8th Nov, 1947 before he fled to Pakistan. IA marched into Junagadh accordingly on 9th Nov, 1947.


The Nawab of Junagadh had already signed the instrument of accession to Pakistan and the instrument was in Pakistan's possession - no one other than the State of Pakistan had the authority after that to 'invite' anyone into the State, unless delegated that authority by the State of Pakistan. Dissemble as much as you want, but legally India invaded and occupied territory that had legally acceded to Pakistan.


> As I said, there is nothing in the body of the Instrument that says the it is being accepted on any condition that the finality would be decided by referendum. Mountbatten's reply was in accordance to India's policy that people of the state should get decide on the finality of any accession in case of any conflict of interest.


For one it would be nice to validate the authenticity of the instrument of accession India claims to have, secondly, the rules agreed to between the British, ML and Congress on the accession of States clearly point out the need to resort to the wishes of the people in case of disputed accessions, as referred to by Mountbatten in his comments at the beginning of the post.



> India's responsibility arises once Pakistan has fulfilled it's own.


Pakistan cannot fulfill any responsibilities when India rejects the UNSC resolutions to begin with.

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## MarkTheTruth

Human Rights Violations in Occupied Kashmir 

There are strong reports that over the worsening security situation in Occupied Kashmir, arose due wide spread protests by Kashmiris against the growing Indian atrocities; Indian Government is seriously thinking to impose the Governor Rule in the Occupied Jammu and Kashmir. In this regards, Mr. Narinder Nath Vohra, the so-called Governor of the Occupied Kashmir had a detailed meeting with Indian Home, Defence, and Foreign ministers in New Delhi. Indian Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh headed the meeting that was also participated by senior military and civil officials of Indian bureaucracy. Next few days are considered as very crucial in this regard. What is the situation on ground can be visualized from a news report that says, The situation in Occupied Kashmir is worsening with each day passing. The local and international media is already blocked from covering the ongoing events in Srinagar and elsewhere in Occupied Kashmir. Despite the protests by Kashmiri Journalists, no newspaper is allowed to publish today in Occupied Kashmir. Restrictions on mobile messaging and access to Internet are also imposed in many areas. Curfew is imposed in most cities of Valley and Muslim dominated areas of the Jammu province.

The state of Human Rights violations in the Occupied Kashmir can be imagined from this factual report, which says that, there have been 93,274 deaths of the innocent Kashmiri from 1989 to June 30, 2010. Besides this alarming figure of open killings by its security forces, there have been 6,969 custodial killings, 117,345 arrests, destruction, and razing of 105,861 houses and other physical structures in the use of the community as a whole. The brutal security forces have orphaned over 107, 351 children, widowed 22,728 women and gang raped 9,920 women and young girls. In June 2010 only, there have been over 40 deaths including four children besides, torturing and injuring 572 people. The brutal Indian security forces molested eight women during this one month. By committing this much human rights violations so far, India is trumpeting its success in the Occupied Kashmir, which indeed, is the real cause of fresh uprisings.

What actually propelled India to continue massive human rights violations of Kashmiris is the non-condemnation of these Indian heinous acts of by the so-called civilized international community and no action by UNO? Indian authorities are not willing to talk with Kashmiri people on political grounds. India perhaps reached to a conclusion that only bullet is the right way of dealing with Kashmiris, demanding their right of self-determination. Surprisingly, Indian successive governments are trying to ignore the dynamics of the Kashmiris movement for the freedom from the Indian rule. This indeed is the continuation of their resistance against the Dogra Rule, started in early part of the 20th century. On July 13, 1931, the Dogra authorities ordered firing on a group of peaceful Kashmiri Protestors in Jammu, resultant killing of dozens of innocent Kashmiris. Thereafter, there has been no letup in the oppression of the Dogra rule until its end in October 1947. The end of the Dogrea rule was marked by the beginning of the Hindu rule, another repressive rule on the Kashmiris, which is continuing. People of Occupied Kashmir feels that, The martyrs who sacrificed their precious lives for Kashmir cause teach us all not to bow before the forces even if one has to sacrifice his life.

Following the temporary suspension of the armed struggle by Kashmiri freedom fighters in 2003, India misperceived that it has been able to combat them through its counter-insurgency operations. Indeed, from 2003 onwards, there appeared a change in the Indian attitude, and it was thought by Kashmiri masses that, as Pakistan, India is also sincere in the resolution of Kashmir dispute. In January 2004, during the historic 12th SAARC Summit, both countries pledged that, Kashmir issue would be resolved through an option acceptable to all three parties; the Kashmiri, Pakistan and India. Unfortunately, Indias stubborn attitude and its misperception that Kashmiris are no more presenting a resistance, as if they have reconciled with the Indian rule has led her not to make further progress on the issue. In the meanwhile, through various compensatory measures, India tried to redress the Kashmiri grievances. However, there has been no policy change in the repressive activities of Indian security forces. Indian security forces continued human rights violations in Occupied Kashmir unabated.

After having seen no progress for the resolution of Kashmir issue through peaceful political ways, in 2008, Kashmiri once again renewed their peaceful protests. This time forceful grabbing of their land by the Indian authorities became the raison d'être for the protests. Through a deliberate attempt, Indian Government allotted 800 kanal of Kashmiri land to a Hindu shrine. The tactics was that, through a gradual process, a demographic change would be effected in the Vale of Kashmir, the way it was done in the Jammu, following the Indian rule there, from October 1947 onwards. It is worth mentioning that Muslim population constituted 62 percent of the Jammu province according to the last census held in the united Kashmir in 1941. Now it is in thirties. The Valley has over 95 % Muslim population; therefore, India is all out to reduce this by inhabiting Hindu population, through land allotments. To curb their uprisings, this time Indian state machinery decided to economically strangulate the Valley people. Making use of the security forces and Hindu extremists of Jammu, Indian authorities blocked the entire entry and exist routes of the Kashmir Valley. The economic blockade was so ruthless that there took place severe shortage of the foodstuff in the Valley. The Protestants were fired upon, resultant killing of hundreds of the innocent masses including the prominent leaders like Sheikh Abdul Aziz on 11 August 2008, once he was leading a peaceful march towards Muzaffarabad, demanding an end to economic blockade by Indian Army.

Over the time, the people of Kashmir have realized that it is only a delaying tactics being used by the Indian Government; otherwise, there is neither the will nor the desire of resolving the issue by India. So much so, after the Mumbai terror attack, India is emphasizing Pakistan to resolve other issues less Kashmir. The process of Indo-Pak Composite Dialogue is no more the agenda. Rather, India stresses on a new beginning, mostly revolving around the cross border terrorism and the trade issues. India desires to do away with the tangible developments made during 2004 to 2007, on the core issue on Kashmir, Siachin and Sir Creek. Linked with the Kashmir is the water issue between the India and Pakistan. Through the construction of a number of dams and water storages and diversions, India has reduced the water flow for Pakistan to almost 50 percent from the rivers whose water is exclusively dedicated for the Pakistan.

There is a big question mark on the role of the United Nations Organization (UNO), the only International Organization, mandated to redress the oppressed people of the world. The organization has badly failed to implement its responsibilities and its own resolutions towards a rightful solution of the issue. Besides, the major powers had a role to play for the maintenance of peace and a balance in the world, but owing to a number of factors; they also failed to undertake their moral responsibilities from the platform of UNO. Through new strategic alliances, India has become a partner of the major powers like; United States, European Union, and Russia. These major military and economic powers have their stakes in India, a country having 1.3 billion populations. Within these major interests, the voice of the Kashmiris right of self-determination has lost its pitch as well as the echo.

There have wide spread demonstrations against the recent killings of Kashmiri youths by Indian security forces in various parts of the world. As a routine, Indian security forces are killing 5-6 youths daily. The situation looks like the one Kashmiri experienced in early 1990s. Besides Kashmir, there have been massive demonstrations in various parts of the world, condemning the Indian atrocities. In UK, the Kashmiri community organised a huge protest demonstration against human rights violation in Occupied Kashmir by India. The demonstrators handed over a memorandum to the Indian High Commission in London, demanding an immediate halt to the atrocious inhuman activities of Indian forces in Occupied Kashmir. Demonstrators appealed international human rights organizations that they should assess the situation on ground and mobilise the world community for influencing India for ending the human rights violations there.

The Kashmiri community in Washington also organized similar protests. On the eve of Indian Premiers meet with the President Obama, the Kashmiri community held a peaceful demonstration in front of the White House, conveying the feeling that it is high time that India should be pursued to show flexibility in resolving the issue and be asked to stop the human rights violations in Occupied Kashmir. The demonstrators emphasized the US and international community on three things: President Obama to appoint special envoy for Kashmir; India to honour UN pledges, and killings of Kashmiris be stopped forthwith.

The most popular demand of the Kashmiris from the civilized world is that, if they have their stakes in India and are unable to pursue her to resolve the issue as per the wishes of Kashmiris, then why UN should not make efforts to get the issue resolved. After all, it is mandated to do that and has passed over twenty three resolution on Kashmir resolution. By no means, Kashmir should be treated like Naxalite problem, India is facing in its north and northeastern parts. Occupied Kashmir is not part of the India; therefore, its inhabitants are struggling against a foreign occupant for their freedom, that it is their legal right as per the charter of UNO. The world should therefore, be absolutely clear that, India should not treat Kashmir like its internal insurgency problems, it facing in nine states, all demanding independence from the Indian Union. As per Dr. Ghulam Nabi Fai, the Executive Director, Kashmir Centre Washington said that, Kashmir situation represents a Government's repression not of a secessionist or separatist movement but of an uprising against foreign occupation, an occupation that was expected to end under determinations made by the United Nations. The Kashmiris are not and cannot be called separatists, as Dr. Manmohan Singh alleges because they cannot secede from a country like India to which they have never acceded to in the first place. Furthermore, since the bilateralism between India and Pakistan has not worked, therefore, participation of a third party like UN has become mandatory for the solution of the Kashmir issue.

Awakening of the world conscious is the need of hour. Closing of the eyes and ears by the international community on the ongoing massive human rights violations in Occupied Kashmir by Indian security forces would not end the issue. Rather the seething protest against Indian human rights violation would endanger the world peace to an extent that may be unimaginable until now, as India and Pakistan are nuclear-armed countries. Therefore, the UNO and major powers must pressurize India to immediately end the human rights violations in Occupied Kashmir, pullout its brutal security forces and resolve the issue as per the wishes of Kashmiri subjects in the light of UN resolutions. This would bring peace and stability in the region as well at the global level.

The writer is an analyst of international relations.

Human Rights Violations in Occupied Kashmir


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

schneider said:


> That's why you invaded it in 1999 again!


Are you deliberately pretending to be this dense or is this normal?

What do you expect Pakistan to do so long as India continues to renege on its commitment to conduct a plebiscite in Kashmir?


> You are creating dispute not Indians!


Too late for that argument - the GoI accepted the fact it was a dispute when it accepted the UNSC resolutions, which call for a neutral plebiscite to determine final status of the territory as part of India or Pakistan. Were it not disputed, Pakistan would not be there as a choice for the Kashmiris?


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## Areesh

DRDO said:


> *They are true Indian .. and belongs to those 98% people who want to be with India
> *
> 
> *Slap on the face on those who want to destroy peace in J&K*



The way you have posted  emoctions. It shows that you have also realized the credibility of this news. Yeah it is humorous and non sense.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

schneider said:


> why should we hold plebiscite??? Because Pakistan invaded it 3 times??
> you are joking!!!



Because it was necessary under the rules of partition in cases of disputed accession and India committed to it repeatedly, in the UN, and elsewhere.

End the occupation, subjugation and tyranny inflicted upon the people of Kashmir.


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## owcc

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Are you deliberately pretending to be this dense or is this normal?
> 
> What do you expect Pakistan to do so long as India continues to renege on its commitment to conduct a plebiscite in Kashmir?
> 
> Too late for that argument - the GoI accepted the fact it was a dispute when it accepted the UNSC resolutions, which call for a neutral plebiscite to determine final status of the territory as part of India or Pakistan. Were it not disputed, Pakistan would not be there as a choice for the Kashmiris?



What we want you guys to do thats simple,improve the internal scenario in your own nations and try giving peace a chance by putting aside difference.If India and China can do it so can you.
OR

If you still want to fight over Kashmir ,a territory in the current scenario which is impossible for you to get ........well ENJOY

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## javaman

Areesh said:


> The way you have posted  emoctions. It shows that you have also realized the credibility of this news. Yeah it is humorous and non sense.



digest it,

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

owcc said:


> What we want you guys to do thats simple,improve the internal scenario in your own nations and try giving peace a chance by putting aside difference.If India and China can do it so can you.
> OR
> 
> If you still want to fight over Kashmir ,a territory in the current scenario which is impossible for you to get ........well ENJOY



What we want India and Indians to do is end their morally bankrupt position of subjugating, occupying and terrorizing the kashmiris, and allow them to determine their status as part of India or Pakistan in a neutral plebiscite as promised them and committed to by India, in the UNSC and elsewhere.

All problems will be resolved when Indians stop justifying the occupation of millions and the annexation of their territory out of hatred for Pakistan.


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## owcc

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> What we want India and Indians to do is end their morally bankrupt position of subjugating, occupying and terrorizing the kashmiris, and allow them to determine their status as part of India or Pakistan in a neutral plebiscite as promised them and committed to by India, in the UNSC and elsewhere.
> 
> All problems will be resolved when Indians stop justifying the occupation of millions and the annexation of their territory out of hatred for Pakistan.



Thats never gonna happen and you know it.Therefore forget it, sort out the issues in your own country and lets live peacefully unless your nation has a surefire action plan to get Kashmir

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## Areesh

javaman said:


> digest it,



You first.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> What we want India and Indians to do is *end their morally bankrupt position of subjugating, occupying and terrorizing the kashmiris*
> , and allow them to determine their status as part of India or Pakistan in a neutral plebiscite as promised them and committed to by India, in the UNSC and elsewhere.
> 
> All problems will be resolved when Indians stop justifying the occupation of millions and the annexation of their territory out of hatred for Pakistan.



*
Pls... atleast pakistan should not lecture us on "moral bakruptcy" and "tyranny"....how many of its own country men did it kill in Operaion searchlight in 1971.*

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## javaman

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> What we want India and Indians to do is end their morally bankrupt position of subjugating, occupying and terrorizing the kashmiris, and allow them to determine their status as part of India or Pakistan in a neutral plebiscite as promised them and committed to by India, in the UNSC and elsewhere.
> 
> All problems will be resolved when Indians stop justifying the occupation of millions and the annexation of their territory out of hatred for Pakistan.



if pak donot change his stand then india will have options of supporting terror frm afgh and supporting bla.which will create a mess in pak.now or later u will have to choose one thing.

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## Areesh

owcc said:


> Thats never gonna happen and you know it.Therefore forget it, sort out the issues in your own country and lets live peacefully unless your nation has a surefire action plan to get Kashmir



This is the lack of grace we are discussing right now. When you aren't left with much to say you start posting "Do whatever you can, we won't give to anyone. It will remain with us. It is our part. You have failed etc etc". We have seen hundreds of posts like this. Answer to the topic at hand.

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## owcc

Whats point in answering when we know how it will eventually turn out.THE TRUTH MAY NOT BE GRACEFUL BUT IT STANDS ABOVE ALL HOWEVER UGLY SHE IS

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## javaman

Areesh said:


> You first.



problem aap ko hai bhai jaan, y shud i.


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Mountbatten (Meeting of Defence committee October 27):
> _
> In the special circumstances mentioned by Your Highness, my Government​_[that is a reference to India] _have decided to accept the accession of Kashmir State to the Dominion of India. Consistently with *their policy*_[i.e. India's policy] _that, *in the case of any State where the issue of accession has been the subject of dispute, the question of accession should be decided in accordance with the wishes of the people of the State*,_ [and this exactly what I had referred to as 'India's own policy that people of the state should vet any accession decided by the Ruler, in case where there was an apparent conflict of interest'] _it is my wish that as soon as law and order have been restored in Kashmir and its soil cleared of the invader, the question of the States accession should be settled by a reference to the people._​


Still a policy, not a rule. Or are you now saying that policy and rule are same. The accession of Princely states happened in accordance to Sec 6(1) of India Act, 1935, which reads:

_A State shall be deemed to have acceded to the Federation if His Majesty has signified his acceptance of an Instrument of Accession executed by the Ruler thereof....​_


> Whatever additional motivations India had in conducting a referendum in Junagadh after invading and occupying it, under the rules of partition and accession of States a referendum was necessary, as highlighted above.


Referendum was not necessary, as clarified above. It was entirely a brainchild of Nehru. Jinnah was very much opposed to any sort of referendum.


> The Nawab of Junagadh had already signed the instrument of accession to Pakistan and the instrument was in Pakistan's possession - no one other than the State of Pakistan had the authority after that to 'invite' anyone into the State, unless delegated that authority by the State of Pakistan. Dissemble as much as you want, but legally India invaded and occupied territory that had legally acceded to Pakistan.


True, according to law Junagadh belonged to Pakistan once the IoA was accepted by Pakistan. But, Pakistan was incapable of intervening and ensure security within and of the state. That is why India was asked to intervene. So responding to a crisis situation, on request, no less, was not against International Law. Far from being an 'invasion'.



> For one it would be nice to validate the authenticity of the instrument of accession India claims to have, secondly, the rules agreed to between the British, ML and Congress on the accession of States clearly point out the need to resort to the wishes of the people in case of disputed accessions, as referred to by Mountbatten in his comments at the beginning of the post.


The IoA, the signed one, is in public domain. Why do you expect others to drip feed you? Anyway there it is:













Secondly, Jinnah was staunchly against any plebiscite in any State. To him the opinion of the ruler was final. To Nehru, however, plebiscite was important, in case of conflict.

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## Areesh

javaman said:


> problem aap ko hai bhai jaan, y shud i.



You and other Indians are also facing difficulty in believing that news or crap or whatever it is. So start it with your self.

 tells it all.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> *
> Pls... atleast pakistan should not lecture us on "moral bakruptcy" and "tyranny"....how many of its own country men did it kill in Operaion searchlight in 1971.*



The difference is that most Pakistanis today are not justifying the atrocities that were committed in 1971, but Indians continue to not only defend atrocities committed in Kashmir, but continue to advocate a perpetuation of Indian policies of occupation, subjugation and tyranny of the people of Kashmir under the guise of 'nationalism'.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

owcc said:


> Thats never gonna happen and you know it.Therefore forget it, sort out the issues in your own country and lets live peacefully unless your nation has a surefire action plan to get Kashmir



At least you are open about supporting occupation and tyranny by the State of India, and the violation of its commitment to the people of Kashmir and the international community.


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## owcc

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The difference is that most Pakistanis today are not justifying the atrocities that were committed in 1971, but Indians continue to not only defend atrocities committed in Kashmir, but continue to advocate a perpetuation of Indian policies of occupation, subjugation and tyranny of the people of Kashmir under the guise of 'nationalism'.



If atrocities are being comitted in Kashmir we accept it all ,but yes no matter what however tyrannical yu think our rule is ,it is here to stay ,to that I agree as some of the bad habits which we learned from our new friend Israel I suppose

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## toxic_pus

> Pakistan cannot fulfill any responsibilities when India rejects the UNSC resolutions to begin with.


India rejected UNSC resolution after 1965. Nothing stopped Pakistan from fulfilling its own responsibility before that.

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## javaman

Areesh said:


> You and other Indians are also facing difficulty in believing that news or crap or whatever it is. So start it with your self.
> 
> tells it all.



whole world knows ,who is having problem.

chalo koi baat ni ,akeley mein kha lo,sharmao mat.whole world knows.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The difference is that most Pakistanis today are not justifying the atrocities that were committed in 1971,



*How does it matter if you repent 40 yrs after the deed, is done*..
however it would have been different if Pakistanis had risen against genocide in East Pak in 71 itself...*then you would have had the moral justification criticize Indian deeds.*



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> but Indians continue to not only defend atrocities committed in Kashmir, but continue to advocate a perpetuation of Indian policies of *occupation, subjugation and tyranny of the people of Kashmir under the guise of 'nationalism*'.



Well there were no forces, no human right violations, tyranny in Kashmir before 1989..*before Pakistan started supporting armed militants to fuel secessionist movement in Kashmir*..because of which India had to deploy security forces .

*So indeed Pakistan is not part of the solution, but part of the problem.*

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## Areesh

javaman said:


> whole world knows ,who is having problem.
> 
> chalo koi baat ni ,akeley mein kha lo,sharmao mat.whole world knows.



Again . This news is unreliable for sure.


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## jbond197

Areesh said:


> Again . This news is unreliable for sure.



This news is about Indian land by Indian newspaper so will be believed by Indians. If you don't believe it, too bad, we can't help it. BTW its's India's Internal matter so don't worry


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## Areesh

jbond197 said:


> This news is about Indian land by Indian newspaper so will be believed by Indians. If you don't believe it, too bad, we can't help it. BTW its's India's Internal matter so don't worry



You can believe in crap. You are an Indian after all.


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## javaman

Areesh said:


> You can believe in crap. You are an Indian after all.



frm now on i will believe in rupee news,pak ideology,u know u badly need pudin hara


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## Areesh

javaman said:


> frm now on i will believe in rupee news,pak ideology,u know u badly need pudin hara



Again a .


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## schneider

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> At least you are open about supporting occupation and tyranny by the State of India, and the violation of its commitment to the people of Kashmir and the international community.



*United Nations Security Council Resolution 1172* tacitly accepts India's stand regarding all outstanding issues between India and Pakistan and urges the need to resolve the dispute through mutual dialogue and* does not call for a plebiscite.*

*United Nations Security Council Resolution 47 *cannot be implemented since Pakistan failed to withdraw its forces from Kashmir which was the first step in implementing the resolution.[50] Now the resolution is obsolete since the geography and demographics of the region have been permanently altered.[51] The resolution was passed by United Nations Security Council under Chapter VI of the United Nations Charter.[18] Resolutions passed under Chapter VI of UN charter are considered non binding and have no mandatory enforceability as opposed to the resolutions passed under Chapter VII

*The Constituent assembly of Jammu and Kashmir* had unanimously ratified the Maharaja's Instrument of Accession to India and had adopted a constitution for the state that called for a perpetual merger of the state with the Union of India. India claims that this body was a representative one, and that its views were those of the Kashmiri people at the time.


All differences between India and Pakistan including Kashmir need to be settled through *bilateral negotiations as agreed to by the two countries when they signed the Simla Agreement on 2 July 1972*

Kashmir conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

United Nations Security Council Resolution 47 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## graphican

Thats Cherry Picking. What about Joining Indian Army? Police serves at a different level while Army defends or represents Federation. What about Kashmiri joining Indian Army? Total %age of Muslims in Indian army is just 3%. How many of that already under %age Muslims are from Kashmir?


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## javaman

Areesh said:


> Again a .



----------------------------------------------------


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## jbond197

Areesh said:


> You can believe in crap. You are an Indian after all.



As I said before, its India's internal matter; so don't worry. They are our people and we are giving them what they want the most i.e. "EMPLOYMENT" so that they don't get influenced by evil forces. 
What can i say about you? For you anything not coming from Pakistani source like rupeenews is Crap. We can't help your conspiracy addicted minds.


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## javaman

graphican said:


> Thats Cherry Picking. What about Joining Indian Army? Police serves at a different level while Army defends or represents Federation. What about Kashmiri joining Indian Army? Total %age of Muslims in Indian army is just 3%. How many of that already under %age Muslims are from Kashmir?



http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...army-selection-defying-threat-terrorists.html


India&#8217;s Kashmiri general inspires youth from state

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## jbond197

graphican said:


> Thats Cherry Picking. What about Joining Indian Army?



Since you asked for it..

DAWN.COM | World | Kashmir youth risk lives to join military

Source is Pakistani so that somebody doesn't come again calling it a "Crap"

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## Dr.Evil

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Exactly - we can't be 'occupying' it when we are committed to the resolution of the dispute in accordance with the wishes of the people of the territory of J&K, through plebiscite, as outlined in the UNSC resolutions.
> 
> The nation that blatantly refuses to allow plebiscite and rejects the UNSC resolutions and right of plebiscite that it committed to is the one doing the 'occupation'.



Who is stopping you from giving Independence to the kashmir area occupied by pakistan and make it an independent country.

Also pakistan has given away a part of the illegally occupied territory to another country as if its their " bap ki jhageer ".

If pakistan had really been truly to the word they would have done that long back and then talk about the Indian Kasmir.

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## Dr.Evil

These kashmiri people will teach a lesson to the paid terrorists and their henchmen.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> Still a policy, not a rule. Or are you now saying that policy and rule are same. The accession of Princely states happened in accordance to Sec 6(1) of India Act, 1935, which reads:
> 
> _A State shall be deemed to have acceded to the Federation if His Majesty has signified his acceptance of an Instrument of Accession executed by the Ruler thereof....​_


But did the 1935 Act even apply, since British paramountcy no longer applied - theoretically then there were no 'rules' governing the accession of the State of Kashmir. 'His majesty' was not accepting the instrument of accession in the case of J&K, the Governor General of India was.

But if we are to leave that gray area and go with 'policy', then quite clearly 'policy and promises' of plebiscite, as clearly indicated by the Governor General of India's comments (and also those of the Prime Minister of India, Nehru) were violated by India.



> True, according to law Junagadh belonged to Pakistan once the IoA was accepted by Pakistan. But, Pakistan was incapable of intervening and ensure security within and of the state. That is why India was asked to intervene. So responding to a crisis situation, on request, no less, was not against International Law. Far from being an 'invasion'.


That is a unilateral determination on the part of India, similar to its intervention decades later in East Pakistan - stoking rebellion and destabilizing a territory and then using the weakest of pretexts and no real engagement with the nation exercising sovereignty over the territory to wage war, invade and occupy said territories.

Did India gain sanction from the UN or any other international body to legitimize its military actions against the sovereign State of Pakistan under the pretext of 'crises'? No it did not, therefore Indian actions in Junagadh have no legitimacy and no legality and the State was illegally invaded and occupied.


> The IoA, the signed one, is in public domain. Why do you expect others to drip feed you? Anyway there it is:


An image of the IoA is in the public domain - I was referring to the original document itself being vetted for authenticity.


> Secondly, Jinnah was staunchly against any plebiscite in any State. To him the opinion of the ruler was final. To Nehru, however, plebiscite was important, in case of conflict.


Yet the State of Pakistan accepted the UNSC resolutions calling for plebiscite in the case of J&K, as did the State of India, which as you and I have both pointed out, looked to 'plebiscite' in determining final status and accession as a matter of policy, and yet it was the Indian State that chose to unilaterally violate its commitments internationally and on a bilateral level with the people of Kashmir.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

owcc said:


> If atrocities are being comitted in Kashmir we accept it all ,but yes no matter what however tyrannical yu think our rule is ,it is here to stay ,to that I agree as some of the bad habits which we learned from our new friend Israel I suppose



That is precisely the moral bankruptcy I was referring to earlier - the Nazis had a similar lack of qualms about their methods in preserving and extending the 'glory of their nation' - Indians such as you are in pretty depraved company in terms of mindset then.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> India rejected UNSC resolution after 1965. Nothing stopped Pakistan from fulfilling its own responsibility before that.


India's position, of rejecting plebiscite, came about much earlier than 1965:

*V.K. Menon UN Security Council (763 Meeting, 23 January, 1957):
With Pakistan's intransigence, and passage of time, the offer lapsed and was overtaken by events*
_
"I wish to make it clear on behalf of my Government that under no circumstances can we agree to the holding of a plebiscite in Kashmir"​__
*Representative of India (M.C. Chagla) UN Security Council (1088 meeting, 5 February 1964):*

"Any plebiscite today would by definition amount to questioning the integrity of India. It would raise the issue of secession - an issue on which even the United States fought a civil war not so very long ago. We cannot and will not tolerate a second partition of India on religious grounds"​_​
*Nehru:*
_
On April 2, 1956, he himself had made statements at a press conference, which suggested that he had, indeed, ruled out a plebiscite. A question was put to him: "An inference has been drawn that you do not want now any plebiscite to be held in Kashmir. Is it correct?" Nehru replied: "Largely so; I shall explain myself. What I have said was that we have tried and discussed the question of plebiscite for six or seven years, but the preconditions have not been fulfilled. Meanwhile, other things have taken place, like the military aid etc., which have increased tremendously the difficulties of this problem. It is not that I am not willing to discuss this problem still further. But as a practical person I say this leads to a blind alley. We have, therefore, to discuss it from another point of view in regard to conditions that have arisen now and try to come to an agreement."

Offer of a settlement on the basis of the ceasefire line was the logical corollary. Nehru made this offer while addressing a public meeting in New Delhi on April 18, 1956. "I am willing to accept that the question of the part of Kashmir which is under you should be settled by demarcating the border on the basis of the present ceasefire line. We have no desire to take it by fighting."_

On Pakistan fulfilling its responsibilities, we have been over that several times already - negotiations between the UN India and Pakistan never reached a point where any side could start implementing its part of the bargain, so Pakistan was under no obligation to implement anything then, and especially not now given India's blatant rejection of the UNSC resolutions. 

When India re-commits to the UNSC resolutions, we can re-start the process that ended without agreement, and hopefully arrive at a point where the resolutions can begin to be implemented by both sides. Till then the responsibility for non-implementation lies with India, since she unilaterally rejected the resolutions.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> *How does it matter if you repent 40 yrs after the deed, is done*..
> however it would have been different if Pakistanis had risen against genocide in East Pak in 71 itself...*then you would have had the moral justification criticize Indian deeds.*


 There is no credible evidence of a genocide having taken place in East Pakistan at the hands of the PA. Yes, atrocities were committed by both sides, civilians were massacred by both sides, but much of this was also not in the Pakistani media (what little of it there was) given the GoP's blackout on coverage at the time. In addition, events moved extremely fast, and the situation boiled over and ended with the Indian invasion and occupation of EP in less than a year.

On the other hand, Indians have had years to reflect upon the actions of the Indian State in occupying J&K, and years to contemplate the reports of Amnesty International HRW etc. on the atrocities committed in J&K, yet there are Indians on this thread who are perfectly at east justifying State tyranny, oppression and occupation in the name of 'nationalism', much, as I pointed out earlier, like the Nazis.

There is no excuse for Indians to hide behind when they blatantly defend the actions of the Indian State in IoK.



> Well there were no forces, no human right violations, tyranny in Kashmir before 1989..*before Pakistan started supporting armed militants to fuel secessionist movement in Kashmir*..because of which India had to deploy security forces .
> 
> *So indeed Pakistan is not part of the solution, but part of the problem.*


Had India not reneged on its commitment and promise to the international community and Kashmiris to hold a plebiscite in J&K we would not have had need to resort to overt and covert means of resolving the dispute - the problem here is India and her refusal to allow the Kashmiris to exercise their right to self-determination, not Pakistan which stands in support of that right.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

schneider said:


> *United Nations Security Council Resolution 1172* tacitly accepts India's stand regarding all outstanding issues between India and Pakistan and urges the need to resolve the dispute through mutual dialogue and* does not call for a plebiscite.*
> 
> *United Nations Security Council Resolution 47 *cannot be implemented since Pakistan failed to withdraw its forces from Kashmir which was the first step in implementing the resolution.[50] Now the resolution is obsolete since the geography and demographics of the region have been permanently altered.[51] The resolution was passed by United Nations Security Council under Chapter VI of the United Nations Charter.[18] Resolutions passed under Chapter VI of UN charter are considered non binding and have no mandatory enforceability as opposed to the resolutions passed under Chapter VII
> 
> *The Constituent assembly of Jammu and Kashmir* had unanimously ratified the Maharaja's Instrument of Accession to India and had adopted a constitution for the state that called for a perpetual merger of the state with the Union of India. India claims that this body was a representative one, and that its views were those of the Kashmiri people at the time.
> 
> 
> All differences between India and Pakistan including Kashmir need to be settled through *bilateral negotiations as agreed to by the two countries when they signed the Simla Agreement on 2 July 1972*
> 
> Kashmir conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> United Nations Security Council Resolution 47 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Please read through Toxic and my discussion on the responsibilities of Pakistan in 'fulfilling conditions' here: http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/50672-1947-48-kashmir-war.html

And a similar discussion towards the end of the thread here:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/7904-kashmir-resolutions-explanations-10.html


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## schneider

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Please read through Toxic and my discussion on the responsibilities of Pakistan in 'fulfilling conditions' here: http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/50672-1947-48-kashmir-war.html
> 
> And a similar discussion towards the end of the thread here:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/7904-kashmir-resolutions-explanations-10.html


I have read it

But i am not talking about what Jinnah did, what Nehru did, I am talking about UNSC.

*United Nations Security Council Resolution 1172* tacitly accepts India's stand regarding all outstanding issues between India and Pakistan and urges the need to resolve the dispute through mutual dialogue and does not call for a plebiscite.
It clearly says No to any Plebiscite

why no to any Plebiscite is explained 
here:
*United Nations Security Council Resolution 47* cannot be implemented since Pakistan failed to withdraw its forces from Kashmir which was the first step in implementing the resolution.[50] Now the resolution is obsolete since the geography and demographics of the region have been permanently altered.[51] The resolution was passed by United Nations Security Council under Chapter VI of the United Nations Charter.[18] Resolutions passed under Chapter VI of UN charter are considered non binding and have no mandatory enforceability as opposed to the resolutions passed under Chapter VII



This means UNSC does not demands any Plebiscite its *only Pakistan *which demands Plebiscite.

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## amit27

USA has said kashmir is internal matter for India and Pakistan and UN these days is nothing more then a expensive lunch meeting.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

schneider said:


> I have read it
> 
> But i am not talking about what Jinnah did, what Nehru did, I am talking about UNSC.
> 
> *United Nations Security Council Resolution 1172* tacitly accepts India's stand regarding all outstanding issues between India and Pakistan and urges the need to resolve the dispute through mutual dialogue and does not call for a plebiscite.
> It clearly says No to any Plebiscite


Where does UNSC resolution 1172 'clearly say no to Plebiscite', or for that matter set aside/overrule the past resolutions on the Kashmir dispute?



> why no to any Plebiscite is explained
> here:
> *United Nations Security Council Resolution 47* cannot be implemented since Pakistan failed to withdraw its forces from Kashmir which was the first step in implementing the resolution.[50] Now the resolution is obsolete since the geography and demographics of the region have been permanently altered.[51] The resolution was passed by United Nations Security Council under Chapter VI of the United Nations Charter.[18] Resolutions passed under Chapter VI of UN charter are considered non binding and have no mandatory enforceability as opposed to the resolutions passed under Chapter VII


I recommended you read through those threads precisely to address these arguments.



> This means UNSC does not demands any Plebiscite its *only Pakistan *which demands Plebiscite.


No such thing in UNSC resolution 1172.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

amit27 said:


> USA has said kashmir is internal matter for India and Pakistan and UN these days is nothing more then a expensive lunch meeting.


What the US says does not change the legality or status of J&K, which is that it is disputed, nor does what the US says change the fact that UNSC resolutions are still pending implementation and have not been overruled.


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## schneider

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Where does UNSC resolution 1172 'clearly say no to Plebiscite', or for that matter set aside/overrule the past resolutions on the Kashmir dispute?
> 
> 
> I recommended you read through those threads precisely to address these arguments.
> 
> 
> No such thing in UNSC resolution 1172.



United Nations Security Council Resolution 1172 tacitly accepts India's stand regarding all outstanding issues between India and Pakistan and urges the need to resolve the dispute through mutual dialogue and does not call for a plebiscite.


Then why UNSC 1172 has accepted India's stand??? Why Pakistan's stand is not accepted??? 
Give me one reason!!!!!!!!!!

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

schneider said:


> United Nations Security Council Resolution 1172 tacitly accepts India's stand regarding all outstanding issues between India and Pakistan and urges the need to resolve the dispute through mutual dialogue and does not call for a plebiscite.
> 
> 
> Then why UNSC 1172 has accepted India's stand??? Why Pakistan's stand is not accepted???
> Give me one reason!!!!!!!!!!


UNSC resolution 1172 did not 'accept India's stand' tacitly or otherwise. UNSC resolution 1172 was a resolution primarily related to the nuclear weapons tests carried out by India and Pakistan, and given the unsettled disputes between the two, past wars and the potential of future hostility with nuclear weapons, it 'encouraged' the two countries to engage in dialog.

At no point did it state that UNSC resolutions on Kashmir were defunct or overruled, or that plebiscite was not on the table. This is really clutching at straws.


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## amit27

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> What the US says does not change the legality or status of J&K, which is that it is disputed, nor does what the US says change the fact that UNSC resolutions are still pending implementation and have not been overruled.




Yes but my point is that UN after the US led invasion of iraq is a micky mouse organisation, even Iran and Israel joke in the face of UN resolutions. Kashmir is not important for the USA or for Europe who are in deep recession and have more domestica problems then sticking their hore in other nations affair's.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

amit27 said:


> Yes but my point is that UN after the US led invasion of iraq is a micky mouse organisation, even Iran and Israel joke in the face of UN resolutions. Kashmir is not important for the USA or for Europe who are in deep recession and have more domestica problems then sticking their hore in other nations affair's.


The effectiveness of the UN has little to do with the argument of Indian occupation and tyranny in Kashmir, the fact that many Indians openly defend tyranny and occupation under the guise of nationalism much like the Nazis, and the fact that India has reneged on her pledge to the international community and the Kashmiri people, of allowing them to exercise self-determination through a plebiscite.


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## schneider

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> UNSC resolution 1172 did not 'accept India's stand' tacitly or otherwise. UNSC resolution 1172 was a resolution primarily related to the nuclear weapons tests carried out by India and Pakistan, and given the unsettled disputes between the two, past wars and the potential of future hostility with nuclear weapons, it 'encouraged' the two countries to engage in dialog.



ODS HOME PAGE

UNSC Resolution 1172( 1998)
Urges:
India and Pakistan to resume the dialogue between them on all
outstanding issues, particularly on all matters pertaining to peace and
security, in order to remove the tensions between them, and encourages them to
find *mutually acceptable solutions* that address the root causes of those
tensions, i*ncluding Kashmir;*

where does it demand Plebiscite?????


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## amit27

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The effectiveness of the UN has little to do with the argument of Indian occupation and tyranny in Kashmir, the fact that many Indians openly defend tyranny and occupation under the guise of nationalism much like the Nazis, and the fact that India has reneged on her pledge to the international community and the Kashmiri people, of allowing them to exercise self-determination through a plebiscite.



Pakistan is no saint, creating jihadis who wreak havoc killing innocents in Kashmir. We all know what happened to the self rights of Kashmiri pundits who are refugees now in India. The real issue in Kashmir is over water and who controls it.

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## Spitfighter

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The effectiveness of the UN has little to do with the argument of Indian occupation and tyranny in Kashmir, the fact that many Indians openly defend tyranny and occupation under the guise of nationalism much like the Nazis, and the fact that India has reneged on her pledge to the international community and the Kashmiri people, of allowing them to exercise self-determination through a plebiscite.



I must have asked you this a million times, but for the last time why don't you tell us why Pakistan insists on hanging on to 'azad' Kashmir? Let them form their own government, military etc. What's the PA doing sitting pretty in Kashmir? 

Kashmir is a fully Pakistani creation. Had Pakistan kept its tribals out of Kashmir we wouldn't have had a situation on our hands today. *Also, harping about a decades old resolution after attacking us in '65, '99 and waging an insurgency for two decades is pretty disingenuous. *

Lastly, coming to the Nazis. Zia did a pretty good job of proliferating Islamo fascists throughout the country, you can call us Nazis all you like but now that the GoP has started cracking down on the Punjabi Taliban (and their associates) I'm sure we'll see the true extent of their influence. I can give you plenty of examples of members apologizing, denying and sometimes even defending these animals, but its nothing you don't already know. 

Pakistan has a long, hard fight ahead. I'm certain Kashmir will be resolved satisfactorily, we just have to wait till we can bargain from a position of strength. All this talk about the 'moral high ground' is simply a waste of time. We each have a bone to pick with the other but just as always you're too busy pointing fingers rather than being practical and coming up with solutions. 

With regard to banning Pakistani channels, I'm all for it. Who allowed Pakistani propaganda in a region we've fought 4 wars over in the first place?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think Indians got sentimental , at Kashmir when it was a none issue.

The majority of the citizen's in Kashmire are/were muslims thus the region belongs to Pakistan

Perhaps the problem was the unfortunate deaths of people migrating across, which created the initial confusion. Also our Leaders died with in 1 year time period so this issue was not resolved as our leaders were lost and there was alot of confusion.

I think Gandhi , wanted peace and also peace was desired on Pakistan side as well but unfortunately Jinnah died due to illness (Mysteriously) and Ghandhi was assasinated by somone who was angry at him for cooperating with Pakistan ...perhaps its a lesson that violence is bad

Now Politicians use Kashmir as a VOTE getting gimick nothing more

The civilized solution is to hold elections hand over Kashmir to UN for 50 years, mean while both Indians and Pakistanis can visit the region for tourism. At least that way ever one can walk safely on streets in Kashmir and enjoy the scenery 

With out peace , actually no one wins not even locals - 

And after 50 years Kashmirs can have elections and decide , this way sentimantal anger can be over come with 50 years of peace

If not , then it will mutal destruction at some point and stone age here we come india /pakistan , its 100&#37; certain


Yes people can say , we will have the biggest gun , and this and that biggest stash of weapons but ... peace dose not comes by weapons by people who work towards peace.

A large scale war will end the South Asian Civilization as we know (I guess we could call it a civilization) 

Just becasue ppl could not come to term with matters -

Its hard to have elections after 60 years of illegal occupation by force but I think it would be in Indian national interest if Kashmir issue is solved 

The region could be a very strong economical power block , the other side of choice is grim and dark for 70 years of radio active decay

Getting sentimental on the tread does not necessarily makes any difference normal ppl can't make any difference its always been a political vote related issue in India and Pakistan


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## Spitfighter

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I think Indians got sentimental , at Kashmir when it was a none issue.
> 
> The majority of the citizen's in Kashmire are/were muslims thus the *region belongs to Pakistan*



Not really. Kashmir was a princely state, and while you may feel entitled to it just because its a muslim majority state, India happens to be a secular democracy so religion doesn't really matter. Furthermore, India doesn't subscribe to the two nation theory, the war of 1971 laid that argument to rest once and for all.



> Perhaps the problem was the unfortunate deaths of people migrating across, which created the initial confusion.
> 
> Also our Leaders died with in 1 year time period so this issue was not resolved as our leaders were lost and there was alot of confusion.
> 
> I think Gandhi , wanted peace and also peace was desired on Pakistan side as well but unfortunately Jinnah died due to illness (Mysteriously) and Ghandhi was assasinated by somone who was angry at him for cooperating with Pakistan ...perhaps its a lesson that violence is bad
> 
> Now Politicians use Kashmir as a VOTE getting gimick nothing more
> 
> The civilized solution is to hold elections hand over Kashmir to UN for 50 years, mean while both Indians and Pakistanis can visit the region for tourism. At least that way ever one can walk safely on streets in Kashmir and enjoy the scenery
> 
> With out peace , actually no one wins not even locals -
> 
> And after 50 years Kashmirs can have elections and decide , this way sentimantal anger can be over come with 50 years of peace
> 
> If not , then it will mutal destruction at some point and stone age here we come india /pakistan , its 100&#37; certain
> 
> 
> Yes people can say , we will have the biggest gun , and this and that biggest stash of weapons but ... peace dose not comes by weapons by people who work towards peace.
> 
> A large scale war will end the South Asian Civilization as we know (I guess we could call it a civilization)
> 
> Just becasue ppl could not come to term with matters -
> 
> Its hard to have elections after 60 years of illegal occupation by force but I think it would be in Indian national interest if Kashmir issue is solved
> 
> The region could be a very strong economical power block , the other side of choice is grim and dark for 70 years of radio active decay
> 
> Getting sentimental on the tread does not necessarily makes any difference normal ppl can't make any difference its always been a political vote related issue in India and Pakistan



Long story short all you're saying is solve Kashmir or else. Don't sugar coat it with 'we will be a powerful economic block' and 'south asian civilization'. 

Kashmir cannot be solved by force, Pakistan cannot impose a military solution on India. Even if nuclear war does break out it will be limited to military targets, yes there is no guarantee but mutually assured destruction has always worked. Pakistan is already in deep trouble because of its strategic blunders so covert warfare against India will also lead to serious diplomatic and possibly military retaliation. Not to mention how these same groups can turn on Pakistan.

The only way forward is for Pakistan to accept that it has no choice but to pursue a diplomatic solution with India, regardless of how long it takes. This may seem far fetched today, but as I said earlier five years down the line it might start to look a little more feasible.

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## jeebus

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I think Indians got sentimental , at Kashmir when it was a none issue.
> 
> The majority of the citizen's in Kashmire are/were muslims thus the region belongs to Pakistan



That is not true, Since India was a secular state, Kashmir (which was a Princely state) could have choosen india or pakistan. 

Moron Hari singh couldn't make a desicion until Pakistani tribal who couldn't stand the fact that it was ruled by a hindu(Dogra) tried to invade Kashmir. Now hari singh came to India and asked for help.

India clearly stated that it will not help until he acceded to india which he did with the Instrument of Accession.

Now there cannot be any redrawing of boundries, what ever could be done should have been done 60 years ago. 

I wish india had not returned the 5,500 square miles of P.o.K which India had captured from Pak after the 71 war.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

jeebus said:


> That is not true, Since India was a secular state, Kashmir (which was a Princely state) could have choosen india or pakistan.
> 
> Moron Hari singh couldn't make a desicion until Pakistani tribal who couldn't stand the fact that it was ruled by a hindu(Dogra) tried to invade Kashmir. Now hari singh came to India and asked for help.
> 
> India clearly stated that it will not help until he acceded to india which he did with the Instrument of Accession.
> 
> Now there cannot be any redrawing of boundries, what ever could be done should have been done 60 years ago.
> 
> I wish india had not returned the 5,500 square miles of P.o.K which India had captured from Pak after the 71 war.



Yes unfortunately the stratgy to delay a decision for 100 years and deal with it is counter productive.

A state that claims to be largest democracy should also stand by ideals of democracy instead of sentimental attachment.

If Gandhi accepted pakistan and helped release pakistan's share of $$ from Banks , I am sure rest of indian political establishment should have respected the leader's decisions. 

Sentimental attachment only took us to the path we are on now 

The land returned was under pretext of long term peace or fear of relation in future.

But you can't have peace untill you hold unpartial elections 

Making references to 65 or 71 or Kargil makes no difference , its not 65 , its not 71 not even 1999

If all regions of India / Pakistan can enjoy freedom , I think its fair that people get to live in peace under UN. 

For 60 years, while we normalize relations 

Sentimental talk and agression will yeild nothing 

Its like a car

Its out of gas , and you are turning on the car keys engine won't start ... 

Untill its recognized , ok we need to push the car back 60 miles and fill it up with gas , the car will be stuck in same spot ....

But the problem is that car has a ticking time bomb and only person who can deactivate it is 30 km away so if you don't go back and fuel up ... the car will be destroyed , and who ever is in the car will be done

There are alot of regions in India where there are huge population of Muslims but Pakistan never lays any claim on these provinces ... its a point of thought.

Other then that I think democracy should be used ...otherwise its just bad situation

How can a democratic state , deny the people it occupied by virtue of 1 person's alleged approval ? Would they not prefer a democratic gentlemanly solution.

What india did is no different then what east indian company did coming on shore and then getting aproval from 1 person and taking over city then province etc ....perhaps it was the influenc of british forces in India that made this issue the way it is ....

But ...its not a sentimantal but a logical solution. If it hurts np , have it transferred to United nations


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## Champa-Chameli

Its an independent move and cannot be questioned.
Many reasons account for this move and they all are defensive not offensive reasons.
So it won't be appropriate to question this move.


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## jeebus

GUNNER said:


> *Reply from Lord Mountbatten to Maharaja Hari Singh*
> _My dear Maharaja Sahib,
> Your Highness' letter dated 26 October 1947 has been delivered to me by Mr. V.P. Menon. In the circumstances mentioned by Your Highness, my Government have decided to accept the accession of Kashmir State to the Dominion of India. *In consistence with their policy(i.e India)that in the case of any State where the issue of accession has been the subject of dispute, the question of accession should be decided in accordance with the wishes of the people of the State, it is my Government's wish that, as soon as law and order have been restored in Kashmir and its soil cleared of the invader(pakis), the question of the State's accession should be settled by a reference to the people.*
> 
> Meanwhile, in response to Your Highness' appeal for military aid, action has been taken today to send troops of the Indian Army to Kashmir, to help your own forces to defend your territory and to protect the lives, property, and honour of your people. My Government and I note with satisfaction that Your Highness has decided to invite Sheikh Abdullah to form an interim Government to work with your Prime Minister.
> 
> Mountbatten of Burma
> October 27, 1947 _



Once Kashmir is acceded to india Legally Mountbatten cannot order and does not have power to enforce he can only express his wish. So its upto india to hold reference to the people as per her policies and as per her policies

'The Constituent assembly of Jammu and Kashmir had unanimously ratified the Maharaja's Instrument of Accession to India and had adopted a constitution for the state that called for a perpetual merger of the state with the Union of India. India claims that this body was a representative one, and that its views were those of the Kashmiri people at the time.'


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## RollingStones

MarkTheTruth said:


> Human Rights Violations in Occupied Kashmir
> 
> There are strong reports that over the worsening security situation in Occupied Kashmir, arose due wide spread protests by Kashmiris against the growing Indian atrocities; Indian Government is seriously thinking to impose the Governor Rule in the Occupied Jammu and Kashmir. In this regards, Mr. Narinder Nath Vohra, the so-called Governor of the Occupied Kashmir had a detailed meeting with Indian Home, Defence, and Foreign ministers in New Delhi. Indian Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh headed the meeting that was also participated by senior military and civil officials of Indian bureaucracy. Next few days are considered as very crucial in this regard. What is the situation on ground can be visualized from a news report that says, The situation in Occupied Kashmir is worsening with each day passing. The local and international media is already blocked from covering the ongoing events in Srinagar and elsewhere in Occupied Kashmir. Despite the protests by Kashmiri Journalists, no newspaper is allowed to publish today in Occupied Kashmir. Restrictions on mobile messaging and access to Internet are also imposed in many areas. Curfew is imposed in most cities of Valley and Muslim dominated areas of the Jammu province.
> 
> The state of Human Rights violations in the Occupied Kashmir can be imagined from this factual report, which says that, there have been 93,274 deaths of the innocent Kashmiri from 1989 to June 30, 2010. Besides this alarming figure of open killings by its security forces, there have been 6,969 custodial killings, 117,345 arrests, destruction, and razing of 105,861 houses and other physical structures in the use of the community as a whole. The brutal security forces have orphaned over 107, 351 children, widowed 22,728 women and gang raped 9,920 women and young girls. In June 2010 only, there have been over 40 deaths including four children besides, torturing and injuring 572 people. The brutal Indian security forces molested eight women during this one month. By committing this much human rights violations so far, India is trumpeting its success in the Occupied Kashmir, which indeed, is the real cause of fresh uprisings.
> 
> What actually propelled India to continue massive human rights violations of Kashmiris is the non-condemnation of these Indian heinous acts of by the so-called civilized international community and no action by UNO? Indian authorities are not willing to talk with Kashmiri people on political grounds. India perhaps reached to a conclusion that only bullet is the right way of dealing with Kashmiris, demanding their right of self-determination. Surprisingly, Indian successive governments are trying to ignore the dynamics of the Kashmiris movement for the freedom from the Indian rule. This indeed is the continuation of their resistance against the Dogra Rule, started in early part of the 20th century. On July 13, 1931, the Dogra authorities ordered firing on a group of peaceful Kashmiri Protestors in Jammu, resultant killing of dozens of innocent Kashmiris. Thereafter, there has been no letup in the oppression of the Dogra rule until its end in October 1947. The end of the Dogrea rule was marked by the beginning of the Hindu rule, another repressive rule on the Kashmiris, which is continuing. People of Occupied Kashmir feels that, The martyrs who sacrificed their precious lives for Kashmir cause teach us all not to bow before the forces even if one has to sacrifice his life.
> 
> Following the temporary suspension of the armed struggle by Kashmiri freedom fighters in 2003, India misperceived that it has been able to combat them through its counter-insurgency operations. Indeed, from 2003 onwards, there appeared a change in the Indian attitude, and it was thought by Kashmiri masses that, as Pakistan, India is also sincere in the resolution of Kashmir dispute. In January 2004, during the historic 12th SAARC Summit, both countries pledged that, Kashmir issue would be resolved through an option acceptable to all three parties; the Kashmiri, Pakistan and India. Unfortunately, Indias stubborn attitude and its misperception that Kashmiris are no more presenting a resistance, as if they have reconciled with the Indian rule has led her not to make further progress on the issue. In the meanwhile, through various compensatory measures, India tried to redress the Kashmiri grievances. However, there has been no policy change in the repressive activities of Indian security forces. Indian security forces continued human rights violations in Occupied Kashmir unabated.
> 
> After having seen no progress for the resolution of Kashmir issue through peaceful political ways, in 2008, Kashmiri once again renewed their peaceful protests. This time forceful grabbing of their land by the Indian authorities became the raison d'être for the protests. Through a deliberate attempt, Indian Government allotted 800 kanal of Kashmiri land to a Hindu shrine. The tactics was that, through a gradual process, a demographic change would be effected in the Vale of Kashmir, the way it was done in the Jammu, following the Indian rule there, from October 1947 onwards. It is worth mentioning that Muslim population constituted 62 percent of the Jammu province according to the last census held in the united Kashmir in 1941. Now it is in thirties. The Valley has over 95 % Muslim population; therefore, India is all out to reduce this by inhabiting Hindu population, through land allotments. To curb their uprisings, this time Indian state machinery decided to economically strangulate the Valley people. Making use of the security forces and Hindu extremists of Jammu, Indian authorities blocked the entire entry and exist routes of the Kashmir Valley. The economic blockade was so ruthless that there took place severe shortage of the foodstuff in the Valley. The Protestants were fired upon, resultant killing of hundreds of the innocent masses including the prominent leaders like Sheikh Abdul Aziz on 11 August 2008, once he was leading a peaceful march towards Muzaffarabad, demanding an end to economic blockade by Indian Army.
> 
> Over the time, the people of Kashmir have realized that it is only a delaying tactics being used by the Indian Government; otherwise, there is neither the will nor the desire of resolving the issue by India. So much so, after the Mumbai terror attack, India is emphasizing Pakistan to resolve other issues less Kashmir. The process of Indo-Pak Composite Dialogue is no more the agenda. Rather, India stresses on a new beginning, mostly revolving around the cross border terrorism and the trade issues. India desires to do away with the tangible developments made during 2004 to 2007, on the core issue on Kashmir, Siachin and Sir Creek. Linked with the Kashmir is the water issue between the India and Pakistan. Through the construction of a number of dams and water storages and diversions, India has reduced the water flow for Pakistan to almost 50 percent from the rivers whose water is exclusively dedicated for the Pakistan.
> 
> There is a big question mark on the role of the United Nations Organization (UNO), the only International Organization, mandated to redress the oppressed people of the world. The organization has badly failed to implement its responsibilities and its own resolutions towards a rightful solution of the issue. Besides, the major powers had a role to play for the maintenance of peace and a balance in the world, but owing to a number of factors; they also failed to undertake their moral responsibilities from the platform of UNO. Through new strategic alliances, India has become a partner of the major powers like; United States, European Union, and Russia. These major military and economic powers have their stakes in India, a country having 1.3 billion populations. Within these major interests, the voice of the Kashmiris right of self-determination has lost its pitch as well as the echo.
> 
> There have wide spread demonstrations against the recent killings of Kashmiri youths by Indian security forces in various parts of the world. As a routine, Indian security forces are killing 5-6 youths daily. The situation looks like the one Kashmiri experienced in early 1990s. Besides Kashmir, there have been massive demonstrations in various parts of the world, condemning the Indian atrocities. In UK, the Kashmiri community organised a huge protest demonstration against human rights violation in Occupied Kashmir by India. The demonstrators handed over a memorandum to the Indian High Commission in London, demanding an immediate halt to the atrocious inhuman activities of Indian forces in Occupied Kashmir. Demonstrators appealed international human rights organizations that they should assess the situation on ground and mobilise the world community for influencing India for ending the human rights violations there.
> 
> The Kashmiri community in Washington also organized similar protests. On the eve of Indian Premiers meet with the President Obama, the Kashmiri community held a peaceful demonstration in front of the White House, conveying the feeling that it is high time that India should be pursued to show flexibility in resolving the issue and be asked to stop the human rights violations in Occupied Kashmir. The demonstrators emphasized the US and international community on three things: President Obama to appoint special envoy for Kashmir; India to honour UN pledges, and killings of Kashmiris be stopped forthwith.
> 
> The most popular demand of the Kashmiris from the civilized world is that, if they have their stakes in India and are unable to pursue her to resolve the issue as per the wishes of Kashmiris, then why UN should not make efforts to get the issue resolved. After all, it is mandated to do that and has passed over twenty three resolution on Kashmir resolution. By no means, Kashmir should be treated like Naxalite problem, India is facing in its north and northeastern parts. Occupied Kashmir is not part of the India; therefore, its inhabitants are struggling against a foreign occupant for their freedom, that it is their legal right as per the charter of UNO. The world should therefore, be absolutely clear that, India should not treat Kashmir like its internal insurgency problems, it facing in nine states, all demanding independence from the Indian Union. As per Dr. Ghulam Nabi Fai, the Executive Director, Kashmir Centre Washington said that, Kashmir situation represents a Government's repression not of a secessionist or separatist movement but of an uprising against foreign occupation, an occupation that was expected to end under determinations made by the United Nations. The Kashmiris are not and cannot be called separatists, as Dr. Manmohan Singh alleges because they cannot secede from a country like India to which they have never acceded to in the first place. Furthermore, since the bilateralism between India and Pakistan has not worked, therefore, participation of a third party like UN has become mandatory for the solution of the Kashmir issue.
> 
> Awakening of the world conscious is the need of hour. Closing of the eyes and ears by the international community on the ongoing massive human rights violations in Occupied Kashmir by Indian security forces would not end the issue. Rather the seething protest against Indian human rights violation would endanger the world peace to an extent that may be unimaginable until now, as India and Pakistan are nuclear-armed countries. Therefore, the UNO and major powers must pressurize India to immediately end the human rights violations in Occupied Kashmir, pullout its brutal security forces and resolve the issue as per the wishes of Kashmiri subjects in the light of UN resolutions. This would bring peace and stability in the region as well at the global level.
> 
> The writer is an analyst of international relations.
> 
> Human Rights Violations in Occupied Kashmir



There's too many words about Kashmir and too little action. HR violation articles are not going to do anything for Kashmiris. I am not sure why they keep trotting these out. It is pretty tough to hold India and its government to HR violations. If Kashmiris are serious, they need a more serious movement internationally. I mean even the Tibetan independence movement, which was 10 times more well known in international circles is now dead. Kashmiris do not even protest at Indian embassies abroad unlike the Tibetan guys. I have never heard of any Kashmiri protests here in NY or even a little bit of literature being distributed about the Kashmiri independence movement. There arent any books written about Kashmiri independence - just compare that to the number of books written about Tibet in the west. Tibetans have scores of literature, massive protest rallies and run stores in the US. And yet this movement has also dimmed out of existence. How do you expect to get international support and show it is a people's movement when there arent any protests in influential countries? In fact, it leads me to believe that the whole thing is an eyewash and is perpetrated by some local leaders in return for monetary compensation from interested parties. If Kashmiris are serious about "freedom", they need to show it. Not pelt stones and expect the world community to believe they have genuine aspirations to freedom. People with real aspirations for freedom do not do things like the Kashmiris seem to do.


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## jeypore

mjnaushad said:


> *Pak TV channels banned in IHK*
> 
> ISLAMABAD: In Indian-held Kashmir, *authorities have banned the beaming of Pakistani channels in north Kashmir and directed the cable operators in Baramulla and Sopore to block five Pakistani news channels and a religious channel with immediate effect. *Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan



Thank God!!! Finally!!!!

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## Abu Basit

there's no point in complaining as to why india banned our channels, it's their right. So instead of complaining or crying like babies Why not ban indian channels in Pakistan?


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## Ammyy

MarkTheTruth said:


> *The writer is an analyst of international relations.*
> 
> Human Rights Violations in Occupied Kashmir



Why they feel shame to disclose the name of the writer ????


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## Fasih Khan

Brother *mjnaushad * You'ld have heared geedar ki mout aye tou woh jangal ki taraf bhagta hai .... Bloody bunniya's on fire in Kashmir ... Inki mout aye hai Allah kae fazal sae ...... Just pray for our Kashmiri Brother's Victory Inshallah O Taallah ...


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## Ammyy

Fasih Khan said:


> Brother *mjnaushad * You'ld have heared geedar ki mout aye tou woh jangal ki taraf bhagta hai .... Bloody bunniya's on fire in Kashmir ... Inki mout aye hai Allah kae fazal sae ...... Just pray for our Kashmiri Brother's Victory Inshallah O Taallah ...



When you are not able take kashmir from India by force so start praying


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## Areesh

jbond197 said:


> Since you asked for it..
> 
> DAWN.COM | World | Kashmir youth risk lives to join military
> 
> Source is Pakistani so that somebody doesn't come again calling it a "Crap"



And the same Kashmiri youth throws stones on the Indian army and security forces and sends lanat on them.

What piece of crap and a BS. Pakistani source reporting from an Indian source. Huh.


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## Agni 5

Good move. at last...


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## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> And the same Kashmiri youth throws stones on the Indian army and security forces and sends lanat on them.
> 
> What piece of crap and a BS. Pakistani source reporting from an Indian source. Huh.



We dnt need those 2 % who paid by terrorist for protest and stone trowing 

They are true Indians and preparing to take care of these terrorist ...


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## Areesh

DRDO said:


> We dnt need those 2 % who paid by terrorist for protest and stone trowing
> 
> They are true Indians and preparing to take care of these terrorist ...



OH the true Indians or most probably the true baighairat. If this isn't a propaganda crap and is true. The ground realities seem to be different though.


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## Markus

Frankenstein said:


> Last time I checked, There were some star channels like star plus, star world bla bla, working well in Pakistan??



FYI - Star TV is not Indian. It is owned by Rupert Murdoch having its HQ in Hong Kong. It only has a regional office in India.

Star TV has a license to uplink from Indian territory.

Star TV has many channels dedicated to Indian content but is no way under Indian government control. 

Allowing Star TV in Pakistan does not mean that Pakistan allows Indian channels.

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## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> OH the true Indians or most probably the true baighairat. If this isn't a propaganda crap and is true. The ground realities seem to be different though.



Who cares what you think .... Kashmir is ours and no one ........ no one can take it from us ............. 

I think cause in past Pakistan is not able to take it by force so now they start proxi war 

dam to hai nahi kahsmir chahiye


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## Areesh

DRDO said:


> Who cares what you think .... Kashmir is ours and no one ........ no one can take it from us .............
> 
> I think cause in past Pakistan is not able to take it by force so now they start proxi war
> 
> dam to hai nahi kahsmir chahiye



Don't cry.


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## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> Don't cry.



All know who .........


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## Areesh

DRDO said:


> All know who .........



Yes we know who.


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## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> Yes we know who.



Bhai kitna bhi roo lo kahsmir hamara hai or hamara hi rahega


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## roach

Has anyone noticed something strange this summer?

Tourist arrivals in Kashmir were at a record high. My Sister-in-law's family drove down to the valley and had a great time- the place was packed with tourists worse than Chandni chowk in Delhi.

That was the summer (school) holidays. Ordinary Kashmiris made a decent living this summer after a long, long time- thank god for that.

RIGHT after schools reopened this summer, the trouble started. Stone-throwing. And for my Pakistani friends, I know that it is difficult to believe- but these kids do get paid for throwing stones. It's a livelihood, it pays for food and medicines. It is public knowledge in the Valley.

There has obviously been an 'agreement' between parties to let the summer rush get over....the Militants realize that poor, hungry people will resent them as much as they resent the army or police.

Spontaneous? I don't think so.

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## booo

even I've been to kashmir this june


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## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> But did the 1935 Act even apply, since British paramountcy no longer applied - theoretically then there were no 'rules' governing the accession of the State of Kashmir. 'His majesty' was not accepting the instrument of accession in the case of J&K, the Governor General of India was.


Yes, India Act, 1935 was applicable to the extent permitted by Indian Independence Act, 1947. According to Section 8(2) of Indian Independence Act, 1947:

_&#8216;Except in so far as other provision is made by or in accordance with a law made by the Constituent Assembly of the Dominion under subsection (i) of this section, each of the new Dominions and all Provinces and other parts thereof shall be governed as nearly as may be in accordance with the Government of India Act, 1935&#8230;&#8230;&#8217;_​
Indian Independence Act, 1947 dealt with some very specific issues, primary among which were the partition of the provinces of Bengal, Assam and Punjab, the legality of outstanding agreements, standstill agreements etc. Accordingly, necessary amendments were also made in India Act, 1935.


> But if we are to leave that gray area and go with 'policy', then quite clearly 'policy and promises' of plebiscite, as clearly indicated by the Governor General of India's comments (and also those of the Prime Minister of India, Nehru) were violated by India.


This time around I will quote the same comments of Mountbatten that you have quoted earlier, highlighting a different part, and leave it without a comment.

_In the special circumstances mentioned by Your Highness, my Government have decided to accept the accession of Kashmir State to the Dominion of India. Consistently with their policy that, in the case of any State where the issue of accession has been the subject of dispute, the question of accession should be decided in accordance with the wishes of the people of the State, it is my wish that *as soon as law and order have been restored in Kashmir and its soil cleared of the invader, the question of the States accession should be settled by a reference to the people.*_​


> That is a unilateral determination on the part of India, similar to its intervention decades later in East Pakistan - stoking rebellion and destabilizing a territory and then using the weakest of pretexts and no real engagement with the nation exercising sovereignty over the territory to wage war, invade and occupy said territories.


Victoria Shofiled commented, in her book _'Kashmir In Conflict'_, that Jinnah was &#8216;shocked&#8217; to learn that PA was completely incapable of reaching Junagadh, let alone secure law and order. The dewan of Junagadh, was in constant touch with Pakistan and every single move he made, including his occasional farts and belches, was on the direction of Pakistan. When the law and order situation got completely out of hand, Pakistan agreed, although grudgingly, through the dewan, for Indian intervention. 

No matter how hard you try it still wasn't an 'invasion'.


> Did India gain sanction from the UN or any other international body to legitimize its military actions against the sovereign State of Pakistan under the pretext of 'crises'? No it did not, therefore Indian actions in Junagadh have no legitimacy and no legality and the State was illegally invaded and occupied.


India didn&#8217;t need one. The dewan, on behalf of Pakistan, had asked for help. That was enough.


> An image of the IoA is in the public domain - I was referring to the original document itself being vetted for authenticity.


To the best of my understanding, except for Alastair Lamb, who, I must admit, has done a phenomenal job at making a molehill out of a molehill, no body, who matters, has questioned the authenticity of the document. 


> Yet the State of Pakistan accepted the UNSC resolutions calling for plebiscite in the case of J&K, as did the State of India, which as you and I have both pointed out, looked to 'plebiscite' in determining final status and accession as a matter of policy, and yet it was the Indian State that chose to unilaterally violate its commitments internationally and on a bilateral level with the people of Kashmir.


Yes, Pakistan accepted the plebiscite in Kashmir, in October, 1948, a full one year after the fiasco, only after biting off a large chunk of it and consolidating its position in Kashmir thus ensuring that plebiscite would never ever be held in Kashmir. If Pakistan&#8217;s true intention was to solve Kashmir in any way, Jinnah would have accepted Mountbatten&#8217;s offer of plebiscite on 1st Nov, 1947.


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## schneider

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The majority of the citizen's in Kashmire are/were muslims thus the region belongs to Pakistan



--


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## schneider

self delete


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## JonAsad

Good way to infiltrate the Police,
get training, learn to use weapons, understand the system.
and when the time comes Inquilaaab Zindabad


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## afriend

Wot is the big deal brother. Some people are the biggest hypocrites in the world, when they bann facebookd and twitter based on religious lines and they cry for freedom for expression in another country. 

All relgious people are to an extent hypocrites. So i would suggest to everyone be secular and be reasonable.


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## EjazR

*Kashmir govt to organise community kitchens, special classes for students - Hindustan Times*

As Kashmir valley reels under curfew, security restrictions and separatists protest shutdown for more than three weeks now, the J-K government on Monday decided to open ration depots in rural and urban areas as per the convenience of the people and till late hours even on holidays. The government also plans to organise special and extra classes to
the loss of the academic session due to closure of schools for almost a month now.

The state government is contemplating to organise free community kitchens in hospitals for the patients and attendants, who are not able to move out on roads or cover distances to reach their villages and districts.

There were reports of patients and attendants stranded in Valley hospitals due to imposition of curfew.

Advisor to state Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, Mubarak Gul, convened a meeting on Monday to take stock of the supply position of the essentials in the Valley. The government claimed there was no shortage of food grains.

"The department concerned is trying its best to reach to the people in a big way," said a government spokesman in a press statement.

The government claimed that 3.20 lakh quintals of rice, 32,440 quintals wheat and 33,800 quintals of sugar are available in the godowns. It said 2.21 lakh quintals of rice, 12,000 quintals wheat and 4,000 quintals sugar were dispatched to various destinations this month.

The government appealed to the people to cooperate with the government in discharging essential services for the benefit of the common people. It has established a control room in the directorate of CAPD department for the facility of people.

Minister for Education and Public Enterprises Peerzada Mohammad Syeed said the academic activities in particular have been adversely affected by ongoing strikes and as such the students may not be able to complete their syllabus in time.

The students were advised in their own interests to attend the school regularly and devote their time for studies so that they are able to complete their syllabus and compete with the others.

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## karan.1970

jonasad said:


> Good way to infiltrate the Police,
> get training, learn to use weapons, understand the system.
> and when the time comes Inquilaaab Zindabad



Is that what Taliban has done to Pakistan?? Wouldnt it be more prudent for Pakistan to handle the internal mess its going thru before looking out. You are not able to protect your own citizens and are bothered about people belonging to another nation (even if you contend that Kashmir is not India, its still not Pakistan)

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## Weapon Of Choice

jonasad said:


> Good way to infiltrate the Police,
> get training, learn to use weapons, understand the system.
> and when the time comes Inquilaaab Zindabad



Good way of keeping our armed forces away from the line of fire!!
Kashmiris will themselves be killed by the terrorists. 
These terrorists will cause a slow genocide of kashmiris and kashmir will be free of those who oppose us.
Lure them with money and get them killed by people who claim that they carry out the armed struggle on kasmiri people's behalf.
This is a good strategy carried out by govt. of india. Its a very smart move of getting our job done. 
This will reduce the burden from our armed forces.


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## superhero

jonasad said:


> Good way to infiltrate the Police,
> get training, learn to use weapons, understand the system.
> and when the time comes Inquilaaab Zindabad



Yeah right thats what they have been doing for past 62 years. Kashmiris have been part of the armed forces. Strage that the Inquilaab never came from the security agencies but was always other way around.


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## ice_man

*the GORA SAHIB did this to the sub continent under its rule! they hired more & more people of the land into its army & police!!! so does that mean that ALL OUR FOREFATHERS never wanted independence??? wooow great logic by you guys i think india should surrender its independence and become a colony of the british by your logic!!

just a couple of people joining police doesn't change the IDEOLOGY OF THE WHOLE COMMUNITY!*


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## superhero

ice_man said:


> *the GORA SAHIB did this to the sub continent under its rule! they hired more & more people of the land into its army & police!!! so does that mean that ALL OUR FOREFATHERS never wanted independence??? wooow great logic by you guys i think india should surrender its independence and become a colony of the british by your logic!!
> 
> just a couple of people joining police doesn't change the IDEOLOGY OF THE WHOLE COMMUNITY!*



Well and that community resides on the other side of border. No Indian Muslim community want to part away with India. If it was the case then it would have happened within the past 62 years when there was all powerful Pakistan backing it up. We were never that strong to have faced our own people backed by a whole country.


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## Fireurimagination

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That is precisely the moral bankruptcy I was referring to earlier - the Nazis had a similar lack of qualms about their methods in preserving and extending the 'glory of their nation' - Indians such as you are in pretty depraved company in terms of mindset then.



LOL moral bankruptcy on part of India? We may not be perfect but still we are not the epicenter of terrorism and extremism, we don't build barbaric forces like Taliban and then over night dump them, we don't export terrorism in name of religion to all corners of the planet.

India could have easily flooded Kashmir valley with outsiders (read Hindus, Sikhs) and changed the dynamics in no time, but India never did that

India could have shut down the media and used brute force like China and other forces do but India never did that, it even gave Separatists their political space

The Shimla agreement that Pakistanis sign in 1971 stated that Kashmir issue will be resolved bilaterally and thus India released 90000 POW, so why do you now cry about UN resolution of 1947 or don't you people respect treaties that you people sign yourself


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## fatman17

*India unhappy over army chief's indicting remarks*

* Gen VK Singh says New Delhi failed to take administrative measures to build confidence after army's good work in Indian-held Kashmir

By Iftikhar Gilani

NEW DELHI: Indian Army Chief General VK Singh's remarks, where he hinted that India has failed to consolidate and capitalise on gains made by the army in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK), have not gone down well with the government.

Recently, Singh said that the situation in IHK had been tense for quite some time now for many reasons. ''The basic reason has been that we have not been able to build up on the gains that we have made over a period of time.'' He said the army had done a lot of work to restore normalcy in the valley and situation had been brought to a level when other initiatives should have been taken. Directly indicting the political leadership, he said administrative measures needed to be taken by elected leaders at various levels to build confidence.

Talking on the issue, a government official said, "Military commanders give candid advice to the government directly. But the tradition in democracies is that these views are shared discretely and confidentially with the political bosses". 

The official said military commanders interact with civilian leadership at various levels to share their assessment of situations. But the authority of the civilian executive is always paramount as they have wider exposure and inputs at their disposal for taking decisions, he said, adding that military commanders' candid opinions were welcome but needed to be discreet and private. 

The official said that the army's input was important, but its views should not undermine the political leadership of the country. Although admitting that Singh's assessment did carry weight, the official said it (Singh's views) might only be the security side of the situation. "Political view takes into account overall situation," he added.

Defence Minister AK Antony had earlier ticked the service chiefs for going public on the issue of Pay Commission's recommendations last year. Later, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh asked Antony to keep service chiefs from publicly commenting on various issues.

In January 2010, reported comments by former Indian army chief General Deepak Kapoor, on the issue of Maoist cadres joining the Nepalese Army, had kicked up a storm in the neighbouring country. The Indian embassy in Kathmandu was forced to do damage control by issuing a press statement, which stated that the army chief's comments were "highly distorted" and did not "reflect the Indian government's position on the issue".

Earlier, in November, Kapoor had talked about the possibility of a limited war under the nuclear overhang in the Indian subcontinent.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, who was on a visit to the US, was forced to make an assertive statement saying that Pakistan did not face any threat from India.


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## Tayyab1796

wow .... what a shameful move by Indian Government in this day and age ...


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## majesticpankaj

Tayyab1796 said:


> wow .... what a shameful move by Indian Government in this day and age ...


why shameful in this day...u blocked our channels and movies for so many years. then we done the same ... ur crying. by the way , why GOI allowed pakistanis channel in first place.


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## Tayyab1796

majesticpankaj said:


> why shameful in this day...u blocked our channels and movies for so many years. then we done the same ... ur crying. by the way , why GOI allowed pakistanis channel in first place.



so u r saying 'two wrongs make a right'...


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## majesticpankaj

Tayyab1796 said:


> so u r saying 'two wrongs make a right'...


that is the point, if somebody shows u mirror, u started crying foul. by the way, when i said both the things are wrong. your govt. has their own reasons and we have our reasons. so why it is wrong???


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## Tayyab1796

majesticpankaj said:


> that is the point, if somebody shows u mirror, u started crying foul. by the way, when i said both the things are wrong. your govt. has their own reasons and we have our reasons. so why it is wrong???



My point is 'blocking channels' in this day and age is a tried and failed move( wether Indian or Pakistani government does it) because people have so many means of knowing what they want to know .I would go on to say its shameful because you( as a government be it Indian or Pakistani) have tried your propaganda and its failing and as a last resort you(again Indian or Pakistani government)have to take the extreme measure of blocking access to information which is everyone's fundamental right.


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## RescueRanger

Can i ask, is Pakistani TV banned in India as well? Even on cable?

If so im gonna have a word with that guy who runs Pasban Cable... For such a loyal name, he sure is a traitor showing NDTV and all that stuff!


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## HariSeldon

fatman17 said:


> *Indian Army chief concedes failure in held Kashmir *
> 
> Monday, July 12, 2010
> 
> Says have not been able to build on gains
> 
> By Muhammad Saleh Zaafir
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Indian Army Chief General VK Singh has confessed of failures of the Indian Army in occupied Kashmir. In the first such narration over the years, he said the basic reason behind the flare-up in the Kashmir valley was the failure to build on the gains that had been made by the Indian security forces in the occupied state.


Jeez....is this what TT-Chairman title means to you. The report is misleading......I can understand press. If this has been posted by some normal member I would not have replied to it. But ppl like you?

Where does Chief said about failures of IA which you have highlighted. 
Grow-up man. Atleast for the sake of your country.

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## Dr.Evil

RescueRanger said:


> Can i ask, is Pakistani TV banned in India as well? Even on cable?
> 
> If so im gonna have a word with that guy who runs Pasban Cable... For such a loyal name, he sure is a traitor showing NDTV and all that stuff!



Only pak news channels are banned in Jammu and Kashmir.

Entertainment channels are still available.


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## Markus

RescueRanger said:


> Can i ask, is Pakistani TV banned in India as well? Even on cable?
> 
> If so im gonna have a word with that guy who runs Pasban Cable... For such a loyal name, he sure is a traitor showing NDTV and all that stuff!



Forget Pakistani channels. My cable operator has also blacked out BBC and CNN for what reason God knows even though Indian government has allowed them.


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## schneider

I hope Our Governemnt had not allowed their(Pakistan's) Telecommunication Service in Jammu and Kashmir.


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## ice_man

indian channels are aired on our TVs hence we all know ZEE NEWS,NDTV & stuff!! but you guys have implemented a ban so what are we arguing about here??? 

media is the first thing blocked by the oppressors nothing new in that we saw it in our own country in the era of Musharaf and hence eventually he got overthrown!

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## schneider

ice_man said:


> media is the first thing blocked by the oppressors nothing new in that we saw it in our own country in the era of Musharaf and hence eventually he got overthrown!




so?
.......


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## ice_man

schneider said:


> so?
> .......



1+1=2! not 11! the first moves of an ALL KASHMIRI revolution have been set in motion! no pakistani aid or anything! keep the blockade of tv & curfew on the streets & see where you get with it.....


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## Ammyy

ice_man said:


> 1+1=2! not 11! the first moves of an ALL KASHMIRI revolution have been set in motion! no pakistani aid or anything! keep the blockade of tv & curfew on the streets & see where you get with it.....



Ok we understand that you know 1+1+2 .....

Dude we are talking about aid from terrorist not from Pakistan ... but if you want to consider yourself in that situation so that not our false ...


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## somebozo

God NDTV is soo horrible and tasteless that sometimes i think woman in India is most suppressed after holy cow.
Some examples:

- Bandhihi
- Palko ke chao me
- Basera
- Meera
- Jyoti (most sickening of all)

So I guess the Indian ban is solely due to competitive reasons on the face of their own third class entertainment.


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## owcc

somebozo said:


> God NDTV is soo horrible and tasteless that sometimes* i think woman in India is most suppressed after holy cow.*
> Some examples:
> 
> - Bandhihi
> - Palko ke chao me
> - Basera
> - Meera
> - Jyoti (most sickening of all)
> 
> So I guess the Indian ban is solely due to competitive reasons on the face of their own third class entertainment.



The program director of NDTV is a woman Mrs Barkha Dutt and probably its future CEO too


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## superhero

somebozo said:


> God NDTV is soo horrible and tasteless that sometimes i think woman in India is most suppressed after holy cow.
> Some examples:
> 
> - Bandhihi
> - Palko ke chao me
> - Basera
> - Meera
> - Jyoti (most sickening of all)
> 
> So I guess the Indian ban is solely due to competitive reasons on the face of their own third class entertainment.




you saying that when you watch all of them.
Ask Indians like me I have never heard of them. This melodrama is for ladies, your reaction is fine if you have been watching them and let me tell you secreat all the indian guys who actually watch them will not tell that in public . I agree with you they are crap

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## JonAsad

We fought the war of indepence in 1857 against britisher and when did we get the independence 1945?
How many years did the mighty britishers ruled us?
Even they cant impose the opperation for long how could you?

Recruit them more, maybe we'll see a kashmiri version of Mangal Pandey pretty soon.


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## Ammyy

somebozo said:


> God NDTV is soo horrible and tasteless that sometimes i think woman in India is most suppressed after holy cow.
> Some examples:
> 
> - Bandhihi
> - Palko ke chao me
> - Basera
> - Meera
> - Jyoti (most sickening of all)
> 
> So I guess the Indian ban is solely due to competitive reasons on the face of their own third class entertainment.



Well if you know about all these serials so you already watched these .. right ???? 

So you are not far behind ....... 

*And your channels are not able to make even third class entertainment that why people like you watching Indian channels ...* 

And serially dude all these type of serials watched by womens only i dnt even know name of most of you list .... so from my point of view you belong to that category


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## ice_man

owcc said:


> The program director of NDTV is a woman Mrs Barkha Dutt and probably its future CEO too



 barkha dutt i feel is a victim of domestic violence!! some of her programs be it about india itself are very over the top!! i guess all asian women want to try & be famous like OPERA!!


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## Ammyy

jonasad said:


> We fought the war of indepence in 1885 against britisher and when did we get the independence 1945?
> How many years did the mighty britishers ruled us?
> Even they cant stand the opression for long how could you?
> 
> Recruit them more, maybe we'll see a kashmiri version of Mangal Pandey pretty soon.



May be will see that in FATA and baluchinstan really soon ...


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## superhero

jonasad said:


> We fought the war of indepence in 1885 against britisher and when did we get the independence 1945?
> How many years did the mighty britishers ruled us?
> Even they cant stand the opression for long how could you?
> 
> Recruit them more, maybe we'll see a kashmiri version of Mangal Pandey pretty soon.



It was 1857 not 1885. India was divided but as per you Kashmiris are united against Indian rule. At the same time Indians were not allowed in elections where as kashmiris are. Indians did not had support from external agencies and we got freedom not because we were strong but because British became weak because of second world war. In the current scenerio India seems to grow stronger not weaker. 

As far as soon is concerned there are many "soons" in the past 62 years but none of them were fruitful

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## owcc

ice_man said:


> barkha dutt i feel is a victim of domestic violence!! some of her programs be it about india itself are very over the top!! i guess all asian women want to try & be famous like OPERA!!



Dude NDTV may suck but its stock value at Bombay stock exchange will be more than the whole Pakistan media industry put together.Atleast shes known internationally ,even by your people.She reached their after a lot of hardwork so give her that respect that she may head a 1000 rupee crore organisation


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## superhero

ice_man said:


> barkha dutt i feel is a victim of domestic violence!! some of her programs be it about india itself are very over the top!! i guess all asian women want to try & be famous like OPERA!!



Hope the women at your end would mind to be in her place running million dollar organization.  

By the way how many entrepreneurs are there in women in Pakistan to her equivalence or half her equivalence ok not in quality may be monetarily,


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## JonAsad

DRDO said:


> May be will see that in FATA and baluchinstan really soon ...



i hv the maoist card, lets stick to the topic.


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## JonAsad

superhero said:


> It was 1857 not 1885. India was divided but as per you Kashmiris are united against Indian rule. At the same time Indians were not allowed in elections where as kashmiris are. Indians did not had support from external agencies and we got freedom not because we were strong but because British became weak because of second world war. In the current scenerio India seems to grow stronger not weaker.
> 
> As far as soon is concerned there are many "soons" in the past 62 years but none of them were fruitful



What matters is Kashmiri youths joining the police forces.
Now go read my post 44 again.

and if the britishers gave us independence because they were weak because of ww2 than whats the point of celebrating 14/15 august?
It means they gave us independent we didnt earn it.

I dont think like that bro


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## majesticpankaj

somebozo said:


> God NDTV is soo horrible and tasteless that sometimes i think woman in India is most suppressed after holy cow.
> Some examples:
> 
> - Bandhihi
> - Palko ke chao me
> - Basera
> - Meera
> - Jyoti (most sickening of all)
> 
> So I guess the Indian ban is solely due to competitive reasons on the face of their own third class entertainment.


u serious, do u watch all these serials. pity on u kid.

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## Gabbar007

somebozo said:


> God NDTV is soo horrible and tasteless that sometimes i think woman in India is most suppressed after holy cow.
> Some examples:
> 
> - Bandhihi
> - Palko ke chao me
> - Basera
> - Meera
> - Jyoti (most sickening of all)
> 
> So I guess the Indian ban is solely due to competitive reasons on the face of their own third class entertainment.



Those serails are meant for ladies and gays only. advise you not to watch them.


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## JonAsad

WANNA DARE said:


> Then don't think like it sis...
> and anyway it was not us who earned the independence but the british morons who gave it to us,as the fact goes...
> digest it or vomit it,yours choice but still"Life goes like this"=>CELEBRATING every moment of joy...



Sis 
BoI i am a Bro...

Dammit


----------



## toxic_pus

Instead of hitting the 'edit' button, I have accidentally deleted my earlier post. Guess, multitasking is not my cup of tea. Thankfully, I keep my Recycle Bin filled to the brim. Anyway, here it is again, with additions.


AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *V.K. Menon UN Security Council (763 Meeting, 23 January, 1957):
> With Pakistan's intransigence, and passage of time, the offer lapsed and was overtaken by events*


I have the original UN document containing the full speech of Mr Menon at 763 meeting. Mr Menon had said nothing of that sort at that meeting, or the ones before and after that. What he had said is reproduced in entirety (only the para):

_Now, this goes back to a very early period of the tumult. It was our hope that Pakistan would join us in settling the matter. At this point, I should like to say something that I shall have to repeat later. *If an offer is made and it is not accepted at the time it is made, it cannot be held for generations over the heads of those who made it. It is quite true that at that time we told Pakistan: "Let us go to the United Nations together and ask for a plebiscite." They did not agree. When they did not agree, that offer lapsed*. They cannot come here nine years later and say: "You mentioned the word 'plebiscite'." That is the position. We have made many offers to Pakistan at various times. Some of these offers may be reconsidered, if necessary, when the time comes. But, if an offer made to an opposing party is not accepted within a reasonable time, it cannot be maintained that it is still an open offer. The offer terminates when it is not accepted. In very many cases, we have said that explicitly; where we have not done so, it must be taken as the normal state of affairs.​_​
He was referring to Mountbattens offer of plebiscite on 1st Nov, 1947, which, as you know, Jinnah had rejected.



> _
> "I wish to make it clear on behalf of my Government that under no circumstances can we agree to the holding of a plebiscite in Kashmir"​__
> *Representative of India (M.C. Chagla) UN Security Council (1088 meeting, 5 February 1964):*
> _


_
Again I am quoting the entire para of Mr Chaglas comment, and leaving it without commenting on it.

Therefore, if I may sum up, our position on Jammu and Kashmir is clear and unambiguous. *The two resolutions of the Security Council dealing with the plebiscite were conditional and contingent on Pakistan vacating its aggression, and that condition has not been complied with. It is really more than a condition. It was the very basis on which these two resolutions were founded, and the condition not having been complied with and the basis having disappeared, these resolutions are no longer binding on us. In any case, by the passage of time and various factors intervening - to which I shall draw attention a little later - they have become obsolete*. We cannot possibly contemplate with equanimity of the threat to the integration of our country and the danger to our cherished principle of secularism by the holding of a plebiscite in Kashmir. I wish to make it clear on behalf of my Government that under no circumstances can we agree to a plebiscite in Kashmir.​



"Any plebiscite today would by definition amount to questioning the integrity of India. It would raise the issue of secession - an issue on which even the United States fought a civil war not so very long ago. We cannot and will not tolerate a second partition of India on religious grounds"

Click to expand...

_


> *Nehru:*


Nehru didnt say that. *Ms Gandhi*, her daughter, the then PM of India had said that in New York, on *31 March, 1966*.



> _
> On April 2, 1956, he himself had made statements at a press conference, which suggested that he had, indeed, ruled out a plebiscite. A question was put to him: "An inference has been drawn that you do not want now any plebiscite to be held in Kashmir. Is it correct?" Nehru replied: "Largely so; I shall explain myself. What I have said was that we have tried and discussed the question of plebiscite for six or seven years, but the preconditions have not been fulfilled. Meanwhile, other things have taken place, like the military aid etc., which have increased tremendously the difficulties of this problem. It is not that I am not willing to discuss this problem still further. But as a practical person I say this leads to a blind alley. We have, therefore, to discuss it from another point of view in regard to conditions that have arisen now and try to come to an agreement."
> 
> Offer of a settlement on the basis of the ceasefire line was the logical corollary. Nehru made this offer while addressing a public meeting in New Delhi on April 18, 1956. "I am willing to accept that the question of the part of Kashmir which is under you should be settled by demarcating the border on the basis of the present ceasefire line. We have no desire to take it by fighting."_


Let me isolate what Nehru had said from what Noorani has narrated, just for better visibility:

_Largely so; I shall explain myself. *What I have said was that we have tried and discussed the question of plebiscite for six or seven years, but the preconditions have not been fulfilled*. Meanwhile, other things have taken place, like the military aid etc., which have increased tremendously the difficulties of this problem. *It is not that I am not willing to discuss this problem still further*. But as a practical person I say this leads to a blind alley. We have, therefore, to discuss it from another point of view in regard to conditions that have arisen now and try to come to an agreement​_There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in that comment that says, Nehru had rejected UNSC resolutions. 


> On Pakistan fulfilling its responsibilities, we have been over that several times already - negotiations between the UN India and Pakistan never reached a point where any side could start implementing its part of the bargain, so Pakistan was under no obligation to implement anything then, and especially not now given India's blatant rejection of the UNSC resolutions.
> 
> When India re-commits to the UNSC resolutions, we can re-start the process that ended without agreement, and hopefully arrive at a point where the resolutions can begin to be implemented by both sides. Till then the responsibility for non-implementation lies with India, since she unilaterally rejected the resolutions.


Funny, isnt it? Even though negotiations between the UN India and Pakistan never reached a point where any side could start implementing its part of the bargain (lets forget for the moment your tripartite canard that you have sneaked in) and even though Indias obligation begins only after Pakistan has discharged its own, yet, somehow the responsibility for non-implementation still lies with India. If this is your idea of humor, then believe me, it is working. 

Regarding the ending of the process without agreement, Pakistan is as much responsible as India is. In any case, after Ayub's misadventure, the UNSC resolutions have became irrelevant, and from India's perspective, void. 'Re-commitment' to those resolutions is absurd, not just because it is no longer legally tenable, but because those resolutions are grossly inadequate to address the current situation. In fact the UNCIP had started doubting the viability of the resolutions as early as 1950. 

That you still think that India and Pakistan can still reach an agreement on plebiscite as per UNSC resolutions reflects poorly on your understanding of the resolutions and the positions taken by both the countries in accordance to their interpretations.

So get over it.

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## RescueRanger

> Let me isolate what Nehru had said











*A famous picture of the three which has been the subject of many columns and much discussion in India, England and other countries. This real picture of the three shows the clear relationship between Edwina, Nehru and Lord Mountbatten. Nehru is leaning towards Ediwina clearly in Edwina's space while Lord Mountbatten is aloof and peering out into the horizon. Nehru and Edwina are sharing a joke, whle the gay Lord Mountabtten ignores the intimacy between his Jewish wife and native Hindu politician. Large Nehru flirts with lover Edwina Mountbatten while an embarressed Lord Mountbatten looks aloof at the horizon *


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## superhero

jonasad said:


> i hv the maoist card, lets stick to the topic.



Play it. they are after all Indians fighting against the rule not the land. You try attacking India they will be in the line to fight against you.


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## toxic_pus

RescueRanger said:


> *A famous picture of the three which has been the subject of many columns and much discussion in India, England and other countries. This real picture of the three shows the clear relationship between Edwina, Nehru and Lord Mountbatten. Nehru is leaning towards Ediwina clearly in Edwina's space while Lord Mountbatten is aloof and peering out into the horizon. Nehru and Edwina are sharing a joke, whle the gay Lord Mountabtten ignores the intimacy between his Jewish wife and native Hindu politician. Large Nehru flirts with lover Edwina Mountbatten while an embarressed Lord Mountbatten looks aloof at the horizon *


On the other hand this post stands testimony to the quality of 'Think Tanks'. 

Now, tell me Mr Think Tank, would it be pretty if I get down to your level and start making lewd comments about a 40 yr old Jinnah and his love affair with a 16 yr old kid. That won't be pretty, would it?

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## EjazR

^^^And you do know that serious historians consider it more of a drama and filmi book that proper history. And Edwina was Roman Catholic as was her father, her Grand father covnerted from Judaism to Roman Catholic.But her mother never had any jewish ancestor.

Stanley Wolpert says Nehru was Gay, Alex and Clement says he had an affair with Edwina. Make up your mind people!


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## RescueRanger

toxic_pus said:


> On the other hand this post stands testimony to the quality of 'Think Tanks'.
> 
> Now, tell me Mr Think Tank, would it be pretty if I get down to your level and start making lewd comments about a 40 yr old Jinnah and his love affair with a 16 yr old kid. That won't be pretty, would it?



Oh please! I am a think tank because of my professional background. I am still very much human, no need to play the righteous with me, i have read some of your rather tasteless comments...

Coming back to the question at hand, quote Gandhi, yes! I respect the man, he is a hero to me. But quoting Nehru... Please!

Good Day!


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## Markus

RescueRanger said:


> Oh please! I am a think tank because of my professional background. I am still very much human, no need to play the righteous with me, i have read some of your rather tasteless comments...
> 
> Coming back to the question at hand, quote Ghandi, yes! I respect the man, he is a hero to me. But quoting Nehru... Please!
> 
> Good Day!




Calling Gandhi as Ghandi. 

Nice going think tank. Now call this a typing mistake.


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## RescueRanger

Markus said:


> Calling Gandhi as Ghandi.
> 
> Nice going think tank. Now call this a typing mistake.





Such a pitty... Alas, for some there is no silver lining.. No matter my friend, time will be the judge of our intentions.


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## Markus

RescueRanger said:


> Such a pitty... Alas, for some there is no silver lining.. No matter my friend, time will be the judge of our intentions.



If ur intention was to make fun of India's greatest man, then keep your pity to urself - you will need it more.


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## RescueRanger

Markus said:


> If ur intention was to make fun of India's greatest man, then keep your pity to urself - you will need it more.



It was an honest mistake, and it has been corrected, i am using a very small keyboard. I apologise for any offence, that was not the intention (believe me).

If you are ever in Pakistan, i will show you the Jinnah and Gandhi memorabilia i have collected over the years. Don't let your young blood cloud your impression of people. 

You don't even know me, and that is where the problem begins. Just like us Pakistanis are brought up to think you hate Jinnah and Iqbal, you Indians feel we are brought up to ridicule great personalities like Ghandi. 

That is not the case... Now if we can put this behind us, and consider the topic at hand?


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## superhero

RescueRanger said:


> It was an honest mistake, and it has been corrected, i am using a very small keyboard. I apologise for any offence, that was not the intention (believe me).
> 
> If you are ever in Pakistan, i will show you the Jinnah and Gandhi memorabilia i have collected over the years. Don't let your young blood cloud your impression of people.
> 
> You don't even know me, and that is where the problem begins. Just like us Pakistanis are brought up to think you hate Jinnah and Iqbal, you Indians feel we are brought up to ridicule great personalities like Ghandi.
> 
> That is not the case... Now if we can put this behind us, and consider the topic at hand?



as far as normal average indians are concerned who are bsy with their life for bread and butter dont hate Iqbal but know him as a freedom fighter who created "saare jaha se acha.........." as far jinnah is concerned people normally think that he wanted to be the prime minister so did Nehru so this rift forced him to create Pakistan. Gandhi being on the side of Nehru parted with him and was responsible for the partition. If he would have agreed to Jinnah there would have been no partition. I am not stating facts here it is what common man thinks in India.

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## Markus

RescueRanger said:


> It was an honest mistake, and it has been corrected, i am using a very small keyboard. I apologise for any offence, that was not the intention (believe me).
> 
> If you are ever in Pakistan, i will show you the Jinnah and Gandhi memorabilia i have collected over the years. Don't let your young blood cloud your impression of people.
> 
> You don't even know me, and that is where the problem begins. Just like us Pakistanis are brought up to think you hate Jinnah and Iqbal, you Indians feel we are brought up to ridicule great personalities like *Ghandi*.
> 
> That is not the case... Now if we can put this behind us, and consider the topic at hand?



The thing in bold. There u go again.

But thank you for ur explanation.

You intentions may not be wrong but there are some other Pakistani kids who do it purposely and seriously we dont like it. How would Pakistanis feel if we called Jinnah Saab as Jinnu or Jhandu?

Anyways, no hard feelings.

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## RescueRanger

Markus said:


> The thing in bold. There u go again.
> 
> But thank you for ur explanation.
> 
> You intentions may not be wrong but there are some other Pakistani kids who do it purposely and seriously we dont like it. How would Pakistanis feel if we called Jinnah Saab as Jinnu or Jhandu?
> 
> Anyways, no hard feelings.



Totally understandable, rest assured i did run word check on it this time... Unless OpenOffice (yes im cheap) is running a conspiracy against me.

As for Kids... Well sadly we have a lot of those on both sides and they have created a lot of problems... Considering they will be the ones shining the beacon in years to come... *sigh*.

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## somebozo

majesticpankaj said:


> u serious, do u watch all these serials. pity on u kid.



No I dont watch them but a guy shared an apt with me who did. I eventually ended up kicking him out due to loud TV noise.

Curiousity killed the cat!

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## toxic_pus

RescueRanger said:


> Oh please! I am a think tank because of my professional background. I am still very much human, no need to play the righteous with me, i have read some of your rather tasteless comments...


I was under the impression that maturity comes with age. It appears that it runs in reverse with some people. 

As with my 'tasteless' comments, well, it never revolved around rumors, hearsay or speculation about anybody's sexual preferences or practices.



> Coming back to the question at hand, quote Gandhi, yes! I respect the man, he is a hero to me. But quoting Nehru... Please!


If you had taken some time to pause and read before giving in to your primordial need to be a smart Alec, you would have realised that it was your buddy that I was replying to. It was he, who had invoked Nehru, not me.

As with your suggestion to quote Gandhi, I'll quote whoever I feel suites my argument. If you don't approve of it, rebut using something called logic or rational instead of bouncing like a 9 year old kid who has just learned the meaning of 'sex'.


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## RescueRanger

toxic_pus said:


> I was under the impression that maturity comes with age. It appears that it runs in reverse with some people.
> 
> As with my 'tasteless' comments, well, it never revolved around rumors, hearsay or speculation about anybody's sexual preferences or practices.
> 
> 
> If you had taken some time to pause and read before giving in to your primordial need to be a smart Alec, you would have realised that it was your buddy that I was replying to. It was he, who had invoked Nehru, not me.
> 
> As with your suggestion to quote Gandhi, I'll quote whoever I feel suites my argument. If you don't approve of it, rebut using something called logic or rational instead of bouncing like a 9 year old kid who has just learned the meaning of 'sex'.



Ouch... Touched a nerve have i?

By the way i just wanted to add, my "buddy" is one of the most respected members of this forum. If he is being courteous to you, kindly repay the favour! 

Alavidha


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## JonAsad

^^^ The same thing can be said about FATA and Balochistan, tell that to your friend DRDO.


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## superhero

jonasad said:


> ^^^ The same thing can be said about FATA and Balochistan, tell that to your friend DRDO.



People there want Independence where as Maoist want change in governance. there is a hell lot of diffrence between the 2


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## Frankenstein

Americans trained also Taliban, they have created a monster for themselves, follow there foot steps


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## superhero

Frankenstein said:


> Americans trained also Taliban, they have created a monster for themselves, follow there foot steps



Correction
No americans did not they just invested. *You trained them* and we dont have intentions to follow your footsteps


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## Kinetic

So the realities came out just two days after violence. Huriyaat's efforts didn't work at all. As expected our Pakistani friends didn't 'believe' it. 

Actually unemployment is the main reason of this kind of violence in all over India including during recent Bharat Bandh. This is a great idea by the govt to recruit those youths in govt services including the army and police. 

Kashmiri leaders during recent meeting to bring peace....


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## Kinetic

Watch the video... from Al-Jazeera..... Kashmiris are being used to fight other's war against their own country. But they want to return.....


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## syedtalha

Zillay_Khan said:


> First Of all let me state Im also from kashmir my ancestors also settled there over a centuary ago, and liek you talha if you are a syed you ureself coudl not have been a permenent resdient of kashmir generation to genration.
> 
> Who the hell are you to say what is kashmiri and what is not and which region is and which is not, azad kashmir is kashmir only difference is it was liberated through struggle, or it would have also tasted the horrible yoke and animal behaviour of piss pot drinking indians, raping innocent women dress as freedom fighters to harm the true cause of the freedom fighters and try and mass immigrate hindus to the area just as jews did in palestine, because the vast majority population of kashmir is muslim.
> 
> In azad kashmere many people speak kashmiri we have large rathore and bhutt communities that migrated from ocupied kashmere and many where always in that region ample more immigrated from ocupied kashmere , due to persecuation who now love in total peace. I have relatives that side and gave up alot of land to move to azad kashmere just so that they could live in peace. You see here they dont need to pass a army check post every few hundred yards they live in complete peace, nor the fear of drunken hindus bursting into your house and looking like vultures at you and the honour of your family. WE have so much in common with pakistanies, Infact I am *pakistani* kashmere is like a district for me, Pakistan and kashmere should be togethere, we share bloodlines culture, faith, history , all sorts of ties with kashmere more then india which is only a place for hindus and minorities are just bucthered. Hence the name HINDUSTAN.
> 
> In azad kashmere you will hardly notice or think you are sperate to pakistan , but in indian ocupied kashmere its all like living in a war zone, poor people arnt even allowed free elections. And why should kashmris seperate from pakistan, we are all one ummah, one nation one faith and have cultural simmilarities , wherease in india they just loot and kill innocent people in kashmere region and make there bogus propaganda bollywood movies, and such a partition is of no use whatsoever.
> 
> I love Pakistan, pak sar zameen it is the achievment of the blood of shuhadah, the karamat of awliya, the duas of mothers , the scarifices of sons lying under tanks. The hope of millions and the divine blessing bestowed upon us by God, LOve this Pakistan, Watan ki mitti gawah rehnah



Don't worry bro... i'm not indian supporter. pakistan is in my blood..and we have a common faith. I merely pointed out that only kashmir should be part of pakistan, jammu and laddakh is for india and china... this way it will be a peaceful solution, and everybody will be happy. this is called dixon plan, or chenab formula in diplomatic circles. it is acceptable to almost all kashmiris. 
And regarding being kashmiri, i am sorry if i hurt your feelings, but to be honest, all kashmiri speaking ppl in Azad kashmir are migrants, not origional inhabitants, but anyway that does not matter. Let us hope for a peaceful solution between india and pakistan, otherwise kashmiris will soon forget about pakistan.


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## Captain03

Azad Kashmir said:


> I see alot of debate between Pakistani & Indian about Kashmir issue however some Kashmiris may just have Pakistani flag in their profiles like me
> Just wondering I am the only Kashmiri member on the forum, I hope not. Doesn't matter if your from Azad, Jammu, Aksai we are all Kashmiri. Also, please don't start discussing whether Azad is Azad, Aksai is Kashmir etc..., not the point of the thread (with all respect).
> 
> For any Kashmiris, I have some general question to get the ball rolling:
> 
> Are you in India/Pak/Kashmir?
> 
> If abroad which country?
> 
> The Buddhists, Hindu's are Kashmiris too, why do we only hear of Muslim Kashmiris? All our ancestors have eat the wheat of the same soil.
> 
> Should Kashmir be independent?
> 
> Kashmiri pride over nationalistic pride?



im kashmiri; ive been in this forum for a very long time lol

i have lived in pakistan and also azad kashmir as i have family residing in both but right now i live in nyc

kashmir shouldn't be independent; should be a part of pakistan as originally planned and even now there are millions of kashmiris living all over pakistan (like my extended family) that take part in both cultures but present them as one.

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## Captain03

also the chenab plan is the most logical and best solution for kashmir, with jammu being indias and kashmir valley being part of pakistan


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## jeebus

Here is the link

Kashmir intercept: "10-15 people more must be martyred"

Some of the protester were paid to create tension and they hoped people would die which will again create more tension.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Thursday, 15 July 2010
Sha'aban 02, 1431 *


> MUZAFFARABAD: Pakistan Kashmiri political and militant leaders on Tuesday rejected talks between Indian and Pakistani foreign ministers scheduled in Islamabad this week.
> 
> The talks can be meaningful only if Kashmiris are made part of it, the Prime Minister of Azad Kashmir, Raja Farooq Haider, told a conference in Muzaffarabad, capital of the zone.
> 
> Kashmir, split between Pakistan and India and claimed by both in full, has triggered two of the three wars the two countries have fought since 1947.
> 
> Hizbul Mujahideen (HM) organised the conference of the 17 organisations fighting Indian rule in the Himalayan state under the umbrella United Jihad Council.
> 
> Haider urged delegates to strengthen the independence movement and called his government a base camp for the independence movement of Indian-administered Kashmir.
> 
> The conference came two days before Indias External Affairs Minister S.M.Krishna is to visit Islamabad for talks with his Pakistani counterpart Shah Mehmood Qureshi.
> 
> Syed Salahuddin, the leader of Hizbul Mujahideen and chairman of the United Jihad Council, said the red carpet reception to Indian ministers in Islamabad has added to insult to injury for Kashmiris.
> 
> We reject the foreign ministers talks on Thursday. We also dont accept any talks until Kashmiris are made part of it, he added.
> 
> Jihad is the only way to deal with Indias stubbornness. We will continue our struggle until the last Indian soldier leaves Kashmir, Salahuddin said.
> 
> Pakistans banned charity Jammat-ud-Dawa, which is widely seen as a front for the Lashkar-e-Taiba militant group blamed by New Delhi and Washington for the 2008 Mumbai attacks, was also represented at the meeting.
> 
> We are part of Kashmiris independence movement. This is not terrorism but a freedom fight, said one of its leaders, Hafiz Saifullah Mansoor.
> 
> Indian occupying forces have struggled to control demonstrations in Indian-administered Kashmir since being accused of killing 15 civilians, many of them teenagers, since the death of the first, a 17-year-old, on June 11.




DAWN.COM | World | Kashmiris reject India, Pakistan talks


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## Abu Zolfiqar

i tried finding a non-indian source to see if this could be verified....








no other sources are reporting this


(surprise surprise) 



i dont buy this crap, who are they trying to fool


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## jeebus

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i dont buy this crap


SURPRISE SURPRISE  

The person in the call 'Shabir Ahmed Wani' was arrested. Lets wait and watch what is verdict of the court.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

and meanwhile, the anti-hindustan protests are continuing.....

this story will be good to ease (read divert) the minds of the standard indian


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## EjazR

*Hizbul Mujahideen (HM) organised the conference of the 17 organisations fighting Indian rule in the Himalayan state under the umbrella United Jihad Council.*

Referring to these people as reps of Kashmiris is an insult to them...Lets not forget the this group assassinated Mirwaiz Muhammed Farooq father of Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and other pro-independence leaders.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

EjazR said:


> *Hizbul Mujahideen (HM) organised the conference of the 17 organisations fighting Indian rule in the Himalayan state under the umbrella United Jihad Council.*
> 
> Referring to these people as reps of Kashmiris is an insult to them...Lets not forget the this group assassinated Mirwaiz Muhammed Farooq father of Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and other pro-independence leaders.



There is no evidence Hizb was involved in the assassination, though at the time it was suspected of it because of its opposition to the 'old guard' politicians advocating independence rather than succession.


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## archangel

A major of the Indian Army was killed and a colonel injured in a fierce gun battle between the security forces and a group of four to six terrorists in Mendhar forest area of Poonch district in Jammu and Kashmir on Tuesday night. Five other soldiers were injured in the encounter that was continuing till Wednesday morning. 
Two terrorists were also killed, but the bodies were yet to be recovered. 

The encounter started Tuesday night when the troops of 37 Rashtriya Rifles led by Col. Ajay Katoch and Major Amit Phunge moved into Beri Rakh forests in Mendhar, 230 km northeast of Jammu, to trace the terrorists after locals reported suspected movements in the area. 

The Colonel received a bullet injury in his neck, while the Major took the brunt of heavy firing from Ak-47 assault rifles by militants and died on the spot. 

Army sources in Jammu said that the encounter was still on. More forces have been rushed to the spot to fight the terrorists and also to ensure that none of them are able to escape. 

It is suspected from their style of fighting that they were terrorists from Lashkar-e-Toiba group, the army sources said.


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## ARCHON

RIP the brave one.


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## archangel

Atleast now, IA should wake up to the call of better equipments, intelligence, tactics and trainings.

Now, we definitely need reforms in the way our soldiers work and handle situations.

We have been making martyrdom an excuse for our mistakes. 

So, we need to change our thinking first and act fast to make reforms.


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## gubbi

archangel said:


> *We have been making martyrdom an excuse for our mistakes.
> *
> So, we need to change our thinking first and act fast to make reforms.



Hear hear!
We ought to give the enemy every opportunity to celebrate their 'martyrdom'. Reforms NOW!

RIP brave one.


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## indushek

May his soul rest in peace.


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## karan.1970

Leading from the front.. in the time honored tradition on IA. But really, the lives are just too cheap in India. Imagine what a game changer would it be if the cost of 1-2 MRCA (100 - 200 million) is diverted towards procuring better equipment for the infantry in Kashmir. I remember a line from one of the sci -fi movies I saw (starrship troopers).. "The fleet(air force) does the flying and Infantry does the dying"


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## Break the Silence

Rest in peace sir!! My deep condolence to Martyr's family !!!


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## somebozo

Difference of opinion is an amazing thing..from our side..another encounter in IOK, another agent of opressor killed..reason for fanfare. This is what politics are all about.


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## rafay321

Hey Indians are quiet repetitive in saying that we are sending Our Pak soldiers to FATA just to get killed by (what the Indians claim to be) our own creation and its not martyrdom t all. 

Fully ignoring how (Indian sponsored close to death) terrorists are killing our own citizens through out our country and why our soldiers are fighting them for a damn good reason endorsed by the whole world. 

They even bring in CIVIL WAR in all this. Punjabi army killing pakhtoons lol oh these wet dreams.

Why don't they apply this rule here....?? The world knows you are occupying the territory and the only country that agrees that Kashmir is integral partof India is India itself!

What have you guys achieved out of this? feeding 700,000 soldiers there, cost of occupation running billions and what has Kashmir contributed economically? The most backward part of India is Kashmir where common man is struggling for freedom. OK, YES THEY DO NOT WANT TO MERGE WITH PAKISTAN, there you go. 

Oh yeh occupying it for water and draining Pak. I hope you guys have realized that the world would not let that happen. You may drain 50&#37; of Pak but what makes you think that we will not attack you after this great plan and make your country go into the dark with us. We love you too much to leave you behind. We already have the tools to do so and you know it. 


Your brave hearts are needed in the 7 states where the nexalites are creating havoc and chaos. That's where your citizens are being killed. 

So my advise is stop killing innocents in Kashmir which results in your own innocents being killed in Mumbai. Instead go tacke the naxals. 

Salute to your braveheart. I hope he is not the one involved in human right abuses and killing of youngsters at point blank range.


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## Adam Gilchrist

RIP brave man!!

The officers always lead from the front..in true traditions of the Indian Army... thatswhy we see so many officer casualties.


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## karan.1970

somebozo said:


> Difference of opinion is an amazing thing..from our side..another encounter in IOK, another agent of opressor killed..reason for fanfare. This is what politics are all about.



A TTP sympathiser may have a similar difference of opinion with you (as misguided as is yours) when one of their cadres murders a score of your sec forces and civilians in a suicide attack. For them, it would be a reason for fanfare I guess. 

The sad part is that the relationship is at such a low ebb that deaths on opposite sides have become a reason for fanfare....


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## Adam Gilchrist

rafay321 said:


> Hey Indians are quiet repetitive in saying that we are sending Our Pak soldiers to FATA just to get killed by (what the Indians claim to be) our own creation and its not martyrdom t all.
> 
> Fully ignoring how (Indian sponsored close to death) terrorists are killing our own citizens through out our country and why our soldiers are fighting them for a damn good reason endorsed by the whole world.
> 
> They even bring in CIVIL WAR in all this. Punjabi army killing pakhtoons lol oh these wet dreams.
> 
> Why don't they apply this rule here....?? The world knows you are occupying the territory and the only country that agrees that Kashmir is integral partof India is India itself!
> 
> What have you guys achieved out of this? feeding 700,000 soldiers there, cost of occupation running billions and what has Kashmir contributed economically? The most backward part of India is Kashmir where common man is struggling for freedom. OK, YES THEY DO NOT WANT TO MERGE WITH PAKISTAN, there you go.
> 
> Oh yeh occupying it for water and draining Pak. I hope you guys have realized that the world would not let that happen. You may drain 50% of Pak but what makes you think that we will not attack you after this great plan and make your country go into the dark with us. We love you too much to leave you behind. We already have the tools to do so and you know it.
> 
> 
> Your brave hearts are needed in the 7 states where the nexalites are creating havoc and chaos. That's where your citizens are being killed.
> 
> So my advise is stop killing innocents in Kashmir which results in your own innocents being killed in Mumbai. Instead go tacke the naxals.
> 
> Salute to your braveheart. I hope he is not the one involved in human right abuses and killing of youngsters at point blank range.



I dont have words for you...do you think this is the right thread for all this?


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## Awesome

karan.1970 said:


> A TTP sympathiser may have a similar difference of opinion with you (as misguided as is yours) when one of their cadres murders a score of your sec forces and civilians in a suicide attack. For them, it would be a reason for fanfare I guess.
> 
> The sad part is that the relationship is at such a low ebb that deaths on opposite sides have become a reason for fanfare....


TTP is not fighting on a disputed territory. From our point of view, killing Indian soldiers in Kashmir is a good thing.

Anywhere else in India, I'd give that - that would be tragic. But in Kashmir it would be dishonest to say anything else.


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## Adam Gilchrist

Asim Aquil said:


> TTP is not fighting on a disputed territory. From our point of view, killing Indian soldiers in Kashmir is a good thing.
> 
> Anywhere else in India, I'd give that - that would be tragic. But in Kashmir it would be dishonest to say anything else.



For your kind information..the place where this Major died lies in the Jammu region..where you dont have any bhade k tattoo politicians.

Mendhar is very close to what used to be my ancestors village.


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## jha

I guess this will be a wake up call for so called peace loving Central govt....let the army handle these issues like it used to and see the results...when in early 90's these terrorists could make a dent when they had the advantage. In my opinion this is the correct time to hit the knock out punch to terrorists ..


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## vsdoc

This is purely my personal opinion, and I hold it very close to my heart as I have many close friends whom I call brothers, who are in the valley today.

I know it may sound selfish, but whenever I hear or read news of another death, I pray the name is not that of someone I know.

I put it before you guys (Indians) as a request, whether you agree or not.

When one of ours falls, we should grieve for him in privacy, and pay our respects in other ways than to post a thread about it here.

I realise that the intentions are good, and there will be a flood of RIP brave soldier type posts.

But equally there will be some from our friends next door posting congratulatory messages, which will really go down bad at such a time.

If on a Defence site, a soldier's death cannot be respected, then I do not know where else on the Net it will be.

Even on the battle field in the heat of battle and the surge of emotions, a fallen enemy is not disrespected.

I don't know ..... maybe its just a generational thing, and my generation just belongs to a time where such crassness was just not on.

Sad, Doc

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## DeathGod

Asim Aquil said:


> TTP is not fighting on a disputed territory. From our point of view, killing Indian soldiers in Kashmir is a good thing.
> 
> Anywhere else in India, I'd give that - that would be tragic. But in Kashmir it would be dishonest to say anything else.



TTP is fighting for its cause.. which is above and beyond territory , so if I support TTP or there is someone who supports TTP then the killing of even the civilians of Pakistan is a matter of fanfare.

Wonder if next time some posts hurrah!! on a post which talks about the remains of some Pakistani civilians or military alike...

For some people Hypocrisy knows no limits...

RIP to the brave soilder..


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## Awesome

DeathGod said:


> TTP is fighting for its cause.. which is above and beyond territory , so if I support TTP or there is someone who supports TTP then the killing of even the civilians of Pakistan is a matter of fanfare.
> 
> Wonder if next time some posts hurrah!! on a post which talks about the remains of some Pakistani civilians or military alike...
> 
> For some people Hypocrisy knows no limits...
> 
> RIP to the brave soilder..


TTP has no United Nations sanction validating its cause.

Kashmir by UN's declaration is a disputed territory. If Indian doesn't want to see its soldiers killed in Kashmir, it can leave. It can also attack our administered part of Kashmir, Azad Kashmir, by the same logic, but not anywhere else in Pakistan.

Pakistan always condemns deaths of soldiers elsewhere in India, but not in Kashmir as India's presence there itself is an act of war against Pakistan. So in essence, Pakistan's standpoint is correct and just and in accordance to the norms of war.

Kill enemy soldiers - that too only combatant soldiers, only where the battle is justified.

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## chachachoudhary

and this will go on and on and on and on and on................................


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## vsdoc

Asim Aquil said:


> TTP has no United Nations sanction validating its cause.
> 
> Kashmir by UN's declaration is a disputed territory. If Indian doesn't want to see its soldiers killed in Kashmir, it can leave. It can also attack our administered part of Kashmir, Azad Kashmir, by the same logic, but not anywhere else in Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan always condemns deaths of soldiers elsewhere in India, but not in Kashmir as India's presence there itself is an act of war against Pakistan. So in essence, Pakistan's standpoint is correct and just and in accordance to the norms of war.
> 
> Kill enemy soldiers - that too only combatant soldiers, only where the battle is justified.



I have heard this line of your's before buddy. It rang hollow then, it still does.

I agree with you till the part where India and Pakistan are at war.

But where is the Pakistan Army in this war?

The Indian Army is not crossing across. It easily could as it has in the past. It simply does not have the orders to. Yet.

All our soldiers are doing are preventing your thugs from coming across to kill Indians ..... military and civilian, the latter more often than not.

Anyways, you guys can continue to rationalise things the way you have been. We have no control on that. 

What we can control, we will. And when one of ours falls while doing that, I would like to see Indians not giving you the opportunity to gloat. Which would be symbolic at best, seeing as one of you will post it anyways. 

As I said, we control what we can. 

Cheers, Doc

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## Dr.Evil

Asim Aquil said:


> TTP is not fighting on a disputed territory. From our point of view, killing Indian soldiers in Kashmir is a good thing.
> 
> Anywhere else in India, I'd give that - that would be tragic. But in Kashmir it would be dishonest to say anything else.



Every time a pakistani makes a comment like this makes us wonder why Indians should not rejoice all the terrorist bombings and killings of pak soilders.

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## chachachoudhary

Asim Aquil said:


> TTP has no United Nations sanction validating its cause.
> 
> Kashmir by UN's declaration is a disputed territory. If Indian doesn't want to see its soldiers killed in Kashmir, it can leave. It can also attack our administered part of Kashmir, Azad Kashmir, by the same logic, but not anywhere else in Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan always condemns deaths of soldiers elsewhere in India, but not in Kashmir as India's presence there itself is an act of war against Pakistan. So in essence, Pakistan's standpoint is correct and just and in accordance to the norms of war.
> 
> Kill enemy soldiers - that too only combatant soldiers, only where the battle is justified.



Please read UN Plebiscite commission resolution and tell me has Pakistan honoured UN resolution on Kashmir?

Kashmir state willingly acceded to India and it was Pakistan, which first sent its tribals to Kashmir to occupy it.

You (Pakistan) have no moral standing to comment anything on Kashmir because Pakistan never had anything to do with kashmir. Kashmir was an independent state at the time of partition and willingly acceded to india reciprocal to india's promise to protect it from invasion.


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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> TTP is not fighting on a disputed territory. From our point of view, killing Indian soldiers in Kashmir is a good thing.
> 
> Anywhere else in India, I'd give that - that would be tragic. But in Kashmir it would be dishonest to say anything else.



And thats what the difference of opinion is all about. There is no globally accepted policy of security forces getting killed in disputed region being a reason for fanfare and in undisputed area not so. You can feel happy about an Indian major getting killed in Kashmir and someone may feel the same about attacks on Pakistani forces in areas of Pakistan. In my view, both are misguided, but hey.. to each his own..


----------



## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> TTP has no United Nations sanction validating its cause.
> 
> Kashmir by UN's declaration is a disputed territory. If Indian doesn't want to see its soldiers killed in Kashmir, it can leave. It can also attack our administered part of Kashmir, Azad Kashmir, by the same logic, but not anywhere else in Pakistan.
> 
> *Pakistan always condemns deaths of soldiers elsewhere in India, but not in Kashmir as India's presence there itself is an act of war against Pakistan. So in essence, Pakistan's standpoint is correct and just and in accordance to the norms of war.*
> 
> Kill enemy soldiers - that too only combatant soldiers, only where the battle is justified.



About the bold part above... If your view is that India and Pakistan are at war(declared or not), then why Kashmir only... In that case every attack everywhere is fair game.. Isnt it??

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## Fireurimagination

vsdoc said:


> This is purely my personal opinion, and I hold it very close to my heart as I have many close friends whom I call brothers, who are in the valley today.
> 
> I know it may sound selfish, but whenever I hear or read news of another death, I pray the name is not that of someone I know.
> 
> I put it before you guys (Indians) as a request, whether you agree or not.
> 
> When one of ours falls, we should grieve for him in privacy, and pay our respects in other ways than to post a thread about it here.
> 
> I realise that the intentions are good, and there will be a floof of RIP brave soldier type posts.
> 
> But equally there will be some from our friends next door posting congratulatory messages, which will really go down bad at such a time.
> 
> If on a Defence site, a soldier's death cannot be respected, then I do not know where else on the Net it will be.
> 
> Even on the battle field in the heat of battle and the surge of emotions, a fallen enemy is not disrespected.
> 
> I don't know ..... maybe its just a generational thing, and my generation just belongs to a time where such crassness was just not on.
> 
> Sad, Doc



Let them rejoice Doc, let's not expect anything better from them, we have a billion sons who will lay down their lives for our land anyday, let them bring on what they got

Blood will have be repaided with blood, that's karma and the next time when the TTP carries out an attack on Pak army maybe we will rejoice

RIP to our brave soldiers


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## ek_indian

May the soldier RIP.


----------



## alphaforce



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## karan.1970

*The fight against terror goes on. Notch one up for the good guys*

LeT commander killed in Jammu and Kashmir

A district commander of the Lashkar-e-Taeba (LeT) was killed Wednesday in Jammu and Kashmir's Kishtwar forest area, police said.

On a tip off, security forces raided the hideout of Mohammad Ishaq in the forests of Kishtwar, about 230 km from here, and killed him after a gunfight of over an hour. The terrorist had been active in the area for the past five years, a police officer said.

"It was a great success as Ishaq was wanted in several cases," the police officer said without giving details.

_Last updated on Jul 14th, 2010 at 15:54 pm IST_

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## alphaforce

I am not with any one personality shown in this video.......
But the message of video is the message of every Pakistani to Kashmiries!


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## Prometheus

lol...............Kashmir is not part of current talks.

Terrorism from Pakistan's Non state actors is the main topic.


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## hal-fgfa

Asim Aquil said:


> TTP is not fighting on a disputed territory. *From our point of view, killing Indian soldiers in Kashmir is a good thing.*
> 
> Anywhere else in India, I'd give that - that would be tragic. But in Kashmir it would be dishonest to say anything else.



From our point of view if any Pakistani soldier killed in FATA, Baluchistan, or by suicide bomber so its good......


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## Areesh

So the death toll of Indian soldiers is the same or it increased? Only one soldier was annihilated today or someone else from IA join him or not?


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## karan.1970

^ Read 2 posts back.. An LeT commander was sent to his maker instead..


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## blueoval79

Areesh said:


> So the death toll of Indian soldiers is the same or it increased? Only one soldier was annihilated today or someone else from IA join him or not?



It stays around 10% of the number of Pakistan Funded Terrorists Killed.


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## Areesh

blueoval79 said:


> It stays around 10% of the number of Pakistan Funded Terrorists Killed.



I was asking about IA. The major must be bored being alone.


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## blueoval79

Areesh said:


> I was asking about IA. The major must be bored being alone.



Do some calculations.....I gave you the percentage.....


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## IndianArmy

Areesh said:


> I was asking about IA. The major must be bored being alone.



Was It in anyway Personal with me????


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## Areesh

IndianArmy said:


> Was It in anyway Personal with me????



No sir. The one in the news.


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## IndianArmy

Areesh said:


> No sir. The one in the news.



Oh I see........


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## KS

Areesh said:


> I was asking about IA. The major must be bored being alone.



Definitely...he was bored..thats y he took two terrorists with him after shooting them thru their hole. 


@the braveheart:

R.I.P ..O son of the soil.


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## Patriot

Well the good thing is A major got called - It would have been better if the colonel had gone up too.Hey guys you think we would be worried about LET deaths?These guys are just mercenary for us and on your side you're loosing your national army soldiers.Either put up with Kashmir or get out.Now of course we as a enemy would be happy if enemy dies just as Americans enjoy videos of Iraqis die (f16 videos etc) on youtube you just have to look at the comments.Within disputed territory disputed by UN it's a fair game IMHO just as Turkey and Greece fought wars on Cyprus..


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## IndianArmy

Patriot said:


> Well the good thing is A major got called - It would have been better if the colonel had gone up too.Hey guys you think we would be worried about LET deaths?These guys are just mercenary for us and on your side you're loosing your national army soldiers.Either put up with Kashmir or get out.Now of course we as a enemy would be happy if enemy dies just as Americans enjoy videos of Iraqis die (f16 videos etc) on youtube you just have to look at the comments.Within disputed territory disputed by UN it's a fair game IMHO just as Turkey and Greece fought wars on Cyprus..



I dont know about you, But I as a soldier offer prayers to Pakistani soldiers who fight war on terror, And Also Keep a Flower Near a Candle for those who die fighting with terrorists.... May it be Indian soldier or Pakistani.... But It feels Bad and a lot hurt when a few people From Pakistan rejoice After an Indian Soldier goes down Fighting the same terrorists with which Pakistani army is also Fighting....

Isnt that the Worst thing You can do to Any Soldier??? 

Anyways.. One Flower from My Garden will always be Dedicated to soldiers of who go down fighting Terror....

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## GUNNER

*Losing Kashmir *

*By Robert Grenier *

As we await what many hope will be the start, on July 15, of a renewed India-Pakistan peace process, or "Composite Dialogue" - derailed since the Mumbai attacks of November 2008 - I am reminded of two past conversations.

The first occurred in 1999. 

In a meeting with a senior Pakistani official, the topic came around, as it usually did, to US pressure on Pakistan to crack down on militants crossing the Line of Control to engage in "terrorist acts" in Indian administered Kashmir. 

Such infiltration, of course, was widely believed to be facilitated by Pakistan's infamous intelligence service, the ISI. 

Dropping for a moment the usual protests of innocence, the official challenged me to distinguish between a "terrorist" and a "freedom fighter".

That was easy, I said: "The terrorist targets civilians." 

The unspoken assumption in my response was that the US would look differently upon militants engaged in legitimate resistance to oppression, provided those militants restricted themselves to "legitimate" military or security related targets. 

I knew, however, that this was not a distinction my government would willingly concede; and the Pakistani, not wishing to acknowledge the legitimacy of my distinction, did not press me on it.

Fast-forward then to another conversation, this time with a senior official in the US department of defence. 

It was early 2002, just months after the attacks of 9/11. 

The US had just launched its "war on terrorism," and this official, perfectly innocent of any South Asian background, was trying to get a full grasp of all the terrorism we had set out to eliminate. 

"What about what's going in Kashmir?" he asked. "Isn't that terrorism?"

Nearly falling out of my chair, I strongly cautioned him against setting his sights on Kashmir in the way we were already focusing on al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan. 

*There was a long history behind the Kashmir dispute, I pointed out earnestly, and it would be a big mistake to focus myopically on the terrorism without trying to solve the dispute itself.*

*Focus on terrorism*

*Nonetheless, that is precisely what the US has done since 9/11: Focusing on the illegitimate means of redress - the terrorism - without considering either the grievances which produce it or promoting more legitimate means of redressing those grievances*. 

*The US failure in this regard has been compounded by its encouragement of similar attitudes on the part of other nations, including India, which are seen as fellow victims of terrorism, and therefore natural allies in the "war on terror".*


When Shah Mehmood Qureshi, the Pakistani foreign minister, meets with his Indian counterpart, S.M. Krishna, the threat of terrorism will hover over the proceedings in at least two respects. 

The prospect of Indo-Pakistani rapprochement, finally gaining slight momentum after the debacle of Mumbai, will pose a highly attractive target for extremists who see peace between the two leading secular South Asian democracies as a threat. 

Senior officials from both India and Pakistan have stressed the menace posed by extremist spoilers, and the corresponding need to make the peace process impervious to such threats.

Perhaps even more importantly, though, preoccupation with terrorism emanating from Pakistan has encouraged the Indian side to focus on the eradication of the terrorist threat as an effective precondition to serious talks. 

Indeed, the concern with terrorism dominates Indian rhetoric about the upcoming talks, with Krishna having recently reiterated that "Mumbai is a deep scar; [Pakistan] must pursue those who were responsible for, conspired and perpetrated Mumbai". 

*While such concerns are certainly understandable, they nonetheless constitute an overwhelming distraction from the matter at hand.
Indeed, it is clear that the upcoming talks will essentially be "talks about talks".*

Such concrete steps as might be taken will clearly fall into the category of "confidence-building measures," designed to create an environment of greater "trust".

The Pakistanis, too, are falling into the same trap, with Salman Bashir, the Pakistani foreign secretary, having recently said "I think what we're trying to do here is create the right environment".

We have seen all this before. 

*Such a process driven approach, if sustained, will doom the current effort to the fate suffered by all previous ones: Abject failure.*

*The status quo*

The fundamental problem is that the status quo, with India in effective control of most of Jammu and Kashmir, favours India.

*Thus, a sustained series of so-called confidence building measures which reduces the threat of hostilities has the effect of making the status quo more tolerable for India over time, thus creating a strong disincentive for India to engage in a real negotiation.*

*Correspondingly, in Pakistan, confidence building measures in the absence of progress on the core issues in dispute only make the prospect of Indian concessions on Kashmir all the more unlikely and, thus, a policy focused initially on creating trust all the less sustainable*.

This is especially true where terrorism and militant groups are concerned. 

In South Asia, as elsewhere, terrorism is the tool of the weak. 

Without any other effective means of redressing Indian repression of Muslims in Indian administered Kashmir, a Pakistani focus on cracking down on so called "Kashmiri" militant groups based in Pakistan itself is unlikely to be accepted by the army, and only risks further undermining a Pakistani government already beset with domestic militant threats on all sides.

It is patently clear to everyone concerned, including the Pakistani army, that for Pakistan, Kashmir is lost, and will never be regained. 

*Thus, the challenge of an effective peace process in South Asia will be to cut through the chimera of "confidence building measures" which lead nowhere, and to frame an agreement which goes far enough in addressing the legitimate grievances of Kashmiris to make the loss of Kashmir acceptable to the majority of Pakistanis.* 

Once such an agreement in principle is reached, it will then be necessary for the Indian and Pakistani governments to collaborate closely in an effort to make the agreement, including some significant Indian concessions to Kashmiris' desire for greater autonomy, politically saleable on both sides. 

In the same vein, it would also be necessary for India and Pakistan to collaborate in empowering the moderates in Kashmir itself who are capable of bringing about a political solution.

*US sabotage*

It is also patently clear that the Indians and Pakistanis are not capable of putting such a far-sighted political programme together on their own.

*Rather than using the Indians' desire for great-power status as an effective diplomatic tool to encourage steps leading to a settlement of Kashmir, however, US policy is working assiduously to sabotage the process.*

*Firstly, by effectively encouraging India to follow the US lead in dealing with terrorism solely as an illegitimate political tool, which in fact it is, without simultaneously addressing the grievances which motivate it, the US is undermining its own interest in a Kashmir settlement. *

*Further, by dealing with the Kashmir dispute solely as a matter between India and Pakistan, and ignoring the plight of Kashmiris themselves, the US is delegitimising the only approach which would make Pakistani territorial concessions domestically acceptable*.

*The current unrest in Kashmir, which has led to the deaths of another 15 civilians in the past month, only serves as a reminder of the centrality of Kashmir and Kashmiris in the dispute - despite the state department's craven labelling of current Kashmiri violence and repression as "an internal Indian matter".*

Make no mistake: Settlement of Kashmir is critical to broader regional stability.

Without a settlement of Kashmir, the Indo-Pakistani proxy battle which greatly complicates prospects for a negotiated settlement in Afghanistan is unlikely to abate. 

*Without a settlement of Kashmir, it will only be harder to socially isolate the extremists who pose an existential threat to Pakistan itself, and who could effectively undermine a nuclear armed state to say nothing of touching off a potentially nuclear armed confrontation between India and Pakistan.*

Let us hope that the upcoming "talks about talks" serve to remind all interested parties of what is at stake, and seriously attempt to reach beyond the current, deeply flawed and unsustainable "Composite Dialogue".

*Robert Grenier was the CIA's chief of station in Islamabad, Pakistan, from 1999 to 2002. He was also the director of the CIA's counter-terrorism centre.*


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## javaman

Patriot said:


> Well the good thing is A major got called - It would have been better if the colonel had gone up too.Hey guys you think we would be worried about LET deaths?These guys are just mercenary for us and on your side you're loosing your national army soldiers.Either put up with Kashmir or get out.Now of course we as a enemy would be happy if enemy dies just as Americans enjoy videos of Iraqis die (f16 videos etc) on youtube you just have to look at the comments.Within disputed territory disputed by UN it's a fair game IMHO just as Turkey and Greece fought wars on Cyprus..



if ur comments r right then india shud laugh at pak since after u.s entry in pak.


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## amit27

pakistan has bomb blast every day, more pakistani soldiers have been killed since us led invasion of afganistan then indian soldiers in kashmir during the same period.


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## lhuang

Fireurimagination said:


> Let them rejoice Doc, let's not expect anything better from them, we have a billion sons who will lay down their lives for our land anyday, let them bring on what they got
> 
> Blood will have be repaided with blood, that's karma and the next time when the TTP carries out an attack on Pak army maybe we will rejoice
> 
> RIP to our brave soldiers



Billion sons? What about the women?


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## IndianArmy

lhuang said:


> Billion sons? What about the women?



When the Situation arises, they will no less be And No more than be the Sons of this Soil... Hope you get it now


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## KS

GUNNER said:


> *Losing Kashmir *
> 
> *By Robert Grenier *
> 
> As we await what many hope will be the start, on July 15, of a renewed India-Pakistan peace process, or "Composite Dialogue" - derailed since the Mumbai attacks of November 2008 - I am reminded of two past conversations.
> 
> The first occurred in 1999.
> 
> In a meeting with a senior Pakistani official, the topic came around, as it usually did, to US pressure on Pakistan to crack down on militants crossing the Line of Control to engage in "terrorist acts" in Indian administered Kashmir.
> 
> Such infiltration, of course, was widely believed to be facilitated by Pakistan's infamous intelligence service, the ISI.
> 
> Dropping for a moment the usual protests of innocence, the official challenged me to distinguish between a "terrorist" and a "freedom fighter".
> 
> That was easy, I said: "The terrorist targets civilians."
> 
> The unspoken assumption in my response was that the US would look differently upon militants engaged in legitimate resistance to oppression, provided those militants restricted themselves to "legitimate" military or security related targets.
> 
> I knew, however, that this was not a distinction my government would willingly concede; and the Pakistani, not wishing to acknowledge the legitimacy of my distinction, did not press me on it.
> 
> Fast-forward then to another conversation, this time with a senior official in the US department of defence.
> 
> It was early 2002, just months after the attacks of 9/11.
> 
> The US had just launched its "war on terrorism," and this official, perfectly innocent of any South Asian background, was trying to get a full grasp of all the terrorism we had set out to eliminate.
> 
> "What about what's going in Kashmir?" he asked. "Isn't that terrorism?"
> 
> Nearly falling out of my chair, I strongly cautioned him against setting his sights on Kashmir in the way we were already focusing on al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
> 
> *There was a long history behind the Kashmir dispute, I pointed out earnestly, and it would be a big mistake to focus myopically on the terrorism without trying to solve the dispute itself.*
> 
> *Focus on terrorism*
> 
> *Nonetheless, that is precisely what the US has done since 9/11: Focusing on the illegitimate means of redress - the terrorism - without considering either the grievances which produce it or promoting more legitimate means of redressing those grievances*.
> 
> *The US failure in this regard has been compounded by its encouragement of similar attitudes on the part of other nations, including India, which are seen as fellow victims of terrorism, and therefore natural allies in the "war on terror".*
> 
> 
> When Shah Mehmood Qureshi, the Pakistani foreign minister, meets with his Indian counterpart, S.M. Krishna, the threat of terrorism will hover over the proceedings in at least two respects.
> 
> The prospect of Indo-Pakistani rapprochement, finally gaining slight momentum after the debacle of Mumbai, will pose a highly attractive target for extremists who see peace between the two leading secular South Asian democracies as a threat.
> 
> Senior officials from both India and Pakistan have stressed the menace posed by extremist spoilers, and the corresponding need to make the peace process impervious to such threats.
> 
> Perhaps even more importantly, though, preoccupation with terrorism emanating from Pakistan has encouraged the Indian side to focus on the eradication of the terrorist threat as an effective precondition to serious talks.
> 
> Indeed, the concern with terrorism dominates Indian rhetoric about the upcoming talks, with Krishna having recently reiterated that "Mumbai is a deep scar; [Pakistan] must pursue those who were responsible for, conspired and perpetrated Mumbai".
> 
> *While such concerns are certainly understandable, they nonetheless constitute an overwhelming distraction from the matter at hand.
> Indeed, it is clear that the upcoming talks will essentially be "talks about talks".*
> 
> Such concrete steps as might be taken will clearly fall into the category of "confidence-building measures," designed to create an environment of greater "trust".
> 
> The Pakistanis, too, are falling into the same trap, with Salman Bashir, the Pakistani foreign secretary, having recently said "I think what we're trying to do here is create the right environment".
> 
> We have seen all this before.
> 
> *Such a process driven approach, if sustained, will doom the current effort to the fate suffered by all previous ones: Abject failure.*
> 
> *The status quo*
> 
> The fundamental problem is that the status quo, with India in effective control of most of Jammu and Kashmir, favours India.
> 
> *Thus, a sustained series of so-called confidence building measures which reduces the threat of hostilities has the effect of making the status quo more tolerable for India over time, thus creating a strong disincentive for India to engage in a real negotiation.*
> 
> *Correspondingly, in Pakistan, confidence building measures in the absence of progress on the core issues in dispute only make the prospect of Indian concessions on Kashmir all the more unlikely and, thus, a policy focused initially on creating trust all the less sustainable*.
> 
> This is especially true where terrorism and militant groups are concerned.
> 
> In South Asia, as elsewhere, terrorism is the tool of the weak.
> 
> Without any other effective means of redressing Indian repression of Muslims in Indian administered Kashmir, a Pakistani focus on cracking down on so called "Kashmiri" militant groups based in Pakistan itself is unlikely to be accepted by the army, and only risks further undermining a Pakistani government already beset with domestic militant threats on all sides.
> 
> It is patently clear to everyone concerned, including the Pakistani army, that for Pakistan, Kashmir is lost, and will never be regained.
> 
> *Thus, the challenge of an effective peace process in South Asia will be to cut through the chimera of "confidence building measures" which lead nowhere, and to frame an agreement which goes far enough in addressing the legitimate grievances of Kashmiris to make the loss of Kashmir acceptable to the majority of Pakistanis.*
> 
> Once such an agreement in principle is reached, it will then be necessary for the Indian and Pakistani governments to collaborate closely in an effort to make the agreement, including some significant Indian concessions to Kashmiris' desire for greater autonomy, politically saleable on both sides.
> 
> In the same vein, it would also be necessary for India and Pakistan to collaborate in empowering the moderates in Kashmir itself who are capable of bringing about a political solution.
> 
> *US sabotage*
> 
> It is also patently clear that the Indians and Pakistanis are not capable of putting such a far-sighted political programme together on their own.
> 
> *Rather than using the Indians' desire for great-power status as an effective diplomatic tool to encourage steps leading to a settlement of Kashmir, however, US policy is working assiduously to sabotage the process.*
> 
> *Firstly, by effectively encouraging India to follow the US lead in dealing with terrorism solely as an illegitimate political tool, which in fact it is, without simultaneously addressing the grievances which motivate it, the US is undermining its own interest in a Kashmir settlement. *
> 
> *Further, by dealing with the Kashmir dispute solely as a matter between India and Pakistan, and ignoring the plight of Kashmiris themselves, the US is delegitimising the only approach which would make Pakistani territorial concessions domestically acceptable*.
> 
> *The current unrest in Kashmir, which has led to the deaths of another 15 civilians in the past month, only serves as a reminder of the centrality of Kashmir and Kashmiris in the dispute - despite the state department's craven labelling of current Kashmiri violence and repression as "an internal Indian matter".*
> 
> Make no mistake: Settlement of Kashmir is critical to broader regional stability.
> 
> Without a settlement of Kashmir, the Indo-Pakistani proxy battle which greatly complicates prospects for a negotiated settlement in Afghanistan is unlikely to abate.
> 
> *Without a settlement of Kashmir, it will only be harder to socially isolate the extremists who pose an existential threat to Pakistan itself, and who could effectively undermine a nuclear armed state to say nothing of touching off a potentially nuclear armed confrontation between India and Pakistan.*
> 
> Let us hope that the upcoming "talks about talks" serve to remind all interested parties of what is at stake, and seriously attempt to reach beyond the current, deeply flawed and unsustainable "Composite Dialogue".
> 
> *Robert Grenier was the CIA's chief of station in Islamabad, Pakistan, from 1999 to 2002. He was also the director of the CIA's counter-terrorism centre.*





To this day I was thinking that u guys have already lost Kashmir. 
Status quo is here to stay...and in the course of time it will become the IB.


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## somebozo

We neither need to engage in India appeasement nor in Anti-India. Most of our problems stem from "private Mullah" gangs who abused the public anti-india sentiments and raised private armies of extremist. The GOP cannot do anything to contain them while being held answerable for their acts. Also GOP has not done any remarkable achievements in public education which is powerful means of building public opnion hence the space has been occupied by sevral NGO, political parties and madrassas.

When Saddam seized power, he wanted to ensure his nation had patriotism and favourable opnion towards his rule. So first thing he did was build quality public schooling system and free healthcare. If we fail to develop our people, we will be subjugated by mullah power.


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## Freedom

some members r thinking that India will leave Kashmir only due to some protest.... what a day dreamer....


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

No matter what India might do Kashmir dispute will always remain a bloody thorne in its way to accomplish anything unless its resolved acc to the wishes of Kashmiris who are displaying there sentiments out in the streets of Srinagar .. hope they succeed in their righteous cause...!


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## graphican

No India wouldn't be loosing Kashmir because of Protests. It has been foretold by Niamatullah that Kashmir will be liberated as a result of WAR. So stop dreaming about "peaceful" liberation of Kashmir as a result of Protests. 

But this protest is a wonderful development. India would have to burn lot of defense potential to keep everything under-control.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

which is why neither we nor our government think anything will come out of these talks......the news is always the same


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## hal-fgfa

graphican said:


> No India wouldn't be loosing Kashmir because of Protests. It has been foretold by Niamatullah that Kashmir will be liberated as a result of WAR. So stop dreaming about "peaceful" liberation of Kashmir as a result of Protests.
> 
> But this protest is a wonderful development. India would have to burn lot of defense potential to keep everything under-control.



Dont wary we can manage all this ...


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## Markus

There are some people in Pakistan who actually dont want the Kashmir issue to get resolved. The JuD, LeT and company (read Hurriyat) in Kashmir will loose their jobs if India and Pakistan come together and resolve this issue.

As a CBM, India had started reducing troop numbers along the valley. Almost 30000 troops were pulled back.

Then what happened? Suddenly protests increased and stone throwing increased which unfortunately resulted in some casualties. When things went out of control, of CRPF and local police, the army had to be called in to enforce peace.

Clearly, there are some forces who suddenly become active when it seems that normalcy has returned.


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## Patriot

No government ever in Pakistan will ever be allowed to function (will be toppled by immense public pressure) if tries to convert LOC to IB.The current status quo is fine for all i care.So long as the blood of Indian Army is drawn i think it's fine.They're getting repaid in the same coin.It is true that Kashmir was lost the day India tested nukes.The window of opportunity for such war has been closed by both countries due to nuclear weapons.


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## IndianArmy

Patriot said:


> No government ever in Pakistan will ever be allowed to function (will be toppled by immense public pressure) if tries to convert LOC to IB.The current status quo is fine for all i care.So long as the blood of Indian Army is drawn i think it's fine.They're getting repaid in the same coin.It is true that Kashmir was lost the day India tested nukes.The window of opportunity for such war has been closed by both countries due to nuclear weapons.



Drawing the Blood of Indian Army is a Nice Usage of words, but Not a Wise Decision as the people you support are killing 100's of innocent pakistani Civilians on a Daily Basis... We might not care for you, but you must learn to care for yourselves first of all.... Whats the use of drawing blood from one Indian soldier by sacrificing over a 100 Pakistani Civilians? And Some of your Soldiers???

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## IndianArmy

graphican said:


> No India wouldn't be loosing Kashmir because of Protests. It has been foretold by Niamatullah that Kashmir will be liberated as a result of WAR. So stop dreaming about "peaceful" liberation of Kashmir as a result of Protests.
> 
> But this protest is a wonderful development. India would have to burn lot of defense potential to keep everything under-control.



How Many Wars Fought Over Kashmir So Far?? what has been Gained so far??? Destruction for both the sides, Still we Control IAK....The result will be And Has Been Ours, How can you be so sure As The kashmir will be Forcefully Liberated, when the Gap Between India and Pakistan is Widening day by day.... 

India is as much Prepared for a War As you are....


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## Fireurimagination

Patriot said:


> Well the good thing is A major got called - It would have been better if the colonel had gone up too.Hey guys you think we would be worried about LET deaths?These guys are just mercenary for us and on your side you're loosing your national army soldiers.Either put up with Kashmir or get out.Now of course we as a enemy would be happy if enemy dies just as Americans enjoy videos of Iraqis die (f16 videos etc) on youtube you just have to look at the comments.Within disputed territory disputed by UN it's a fair game IMHO just as Turkey and Greece fought wars on Cyprus..



LOL you may not be worried about the LET deaths but when the same LET people will come and bite on your backside just like the TTP and Taliban are doing, do remember who were just mercenaries for you and against whom

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## graphican

Freedom said:


> some members r thinking that India will leave Kashmir only due to some protest.... what a day dreamer....



First thing we needed to establish was that India doesn't have legitimacy of its control over Kashmir and that has been established well. Soldiers who fight without morality turn out to be something similar to what Americans are receiving in Afghanistan. Its good that whole Kashmir is now standing against Indian occupation while in 90s, there were few Armed people who were actively standing against India. Look at this movement that is surviving years after years and even after giving hundreds of thousands lives. 

I salute Kashmiris for their tireless effort. May God bless you liberation and sooner so.


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## somebozo

SELF DELETE


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## Patriot

yeah, the mullahs are curse to us.Capture all the talibans and mullahs and drop them at 30,000 feet over IOK..


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## hal-fgfa

graphican said:


> First thing we needed to establish was that India doesn't have legitimacy of its control over Kashmir and that has been established well. *Soldiers who fight without morality turn out to be something similar to what Americans are receiving in Afghanistan. *Its good that whole Kashmir is now standing against Indian occupation while in 90s, there were few Armed people who were actively standing against India. Look at this movement that is surviving years after years and even after giving hundreds of thousands lives.
> 
> I salute Kashmiris for their tireless effort. May God bless you liberation and sooner so.



That thing applicable for Pakistan army in FATA and northern areas ... This suits you batter ..... We are able to manage batter than you 

And second thing "A few hundred not represent whole kashmir"" .... 
those few hundreds are paid by terrorists ..


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## IndianArmy

graphican said:


> First thing we needed to establish was that India doesn't have legitimacy of its control over Kashmir and that has been established well. Soldiers who fight without morality turn out to be something similar to what Americans are receiving in Afghanistan. Its good that whole Kashmir is now standing against Indian occupation while in 90s, there were few Armed people who were actively standing against India. Look at this movement that is surviving years after years and even after giving hundreds of thousands lives.
> 
> I salute Kashmiris for their tireless effort. May God bless you liberation and sooner so.



A Liberation would get them into deep trouble, Can they survive by having China,India and Pakistan as there neighbors??? what will they do for resources? where will they go for food?? What will they do? What occupation will they Get into????

I am sorry, They would Just be Seduced by Pakistan and Would Stick it as a part of Pakistan, then another 5 decades of Fight with India by doing so.... its better to Un root the cause than find a solution after its too late, which we would and We are doing..

Till then Let the Protests in kashmir take shape...


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## kak1978

graphican said:


> No India wouldn't be loosing Kashmir because of Protests. It has been foretold by Niamatullah that Kashmir will be liberated as a result of WAR. So stop dreaming about "peaceful" liberation of Kashmir as a result of Protests.
> 
> But this protest is a wonderful development. India would have to burn lot of defense potential to keep everything under-control.



Let me foretell this, Eventually LOC will become International border. There is no other way around it. You can fight as many wars on this as you can.


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## hal-fgfa

Patriot said:


> yeah, the mullahs are curse to us.*Capture all the talibans and mullahs *and drop them at 30,000 feet over IOK..



Are you able to capture them ???


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## SQ8

Mr fgfa... inciting flame wars is not a way to approach a topic. Your arguments need to be backed up by neutral articles. If you have proof of PA excesses in FATA.. please find a nice article.. post it in the appropriate section. Indian Excesses in Kashmir are recorded and proven by reports from amnesty International... just as those committed by the PA in east Pakistan.
Most if not all Pakistani's have no regard for the Indian Media whom I consider worse than fox news in reporting, please avoid those "mirch masala" articles..this goes for Pakistani members as well..no Moin Ansari's to be quoted as "reliable sources".
The article above is an example of a fairly neutral stance.

If a few hundred were paid by terrorists to create a mess then they must be a very effective few hundred to warrant such a large percent of your military to control them.

Find something concrete..then make a good rebuttal to a post. Acting like a cornered cat on a post will not gain you any mutual respect..that goes for all posters..and eventually you will be on the troll list.
Im not sure where he is these days, but Paritosh is one of the best examples of somebody who knows how to make proper replies and generally avoids a flame when he is incited.
Take the above as a request as it applies to me as well and everyone has the right to point out otherwise to any poster... All of us here appreciate the Indian interest in this forum and hope it leads to a better understanding of each other..rather than the usual muck.


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## Xeric

Indian army Major killed, 7 including colonel injured | Kashmir Media Service

*Indian army Major killed, 7 including colonel injured*

*APHC Chairman demands repeal of draconian law*

Srinagar, July 14 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, an Indian army Major was killed and seven others including a Colonel were injured in a clash at Beri Rakh in Mendhar area of Poonch.

According to reports, the army authorities in Srinagar claimed that two mujahideen were killed in the clash. 

On the other hand, in their fresh act of state terrorism, the troops martyred another Kashmiri youth in Kishtwar area. Life in the Kashmir Valley remained paralysed due to shutdown and curfew-like restrictions. Indian paramilitary troopers were seen patrolling the areas in Srinagar and other towns, disallowing pedestrians and vehicular movement. The authorities have banned Pakistani news channels and SMS news services in the valley. The black law, Public Safety Act was invoked against more five activists of the All Parties Hurriyet Conference, today, and they were shifted to Hira Nagar jail in Jammu.

Kashmiri lawyers staged a protest sit-in in Srinagar, which was led by the Vice President of the Bar Association, Aijaz Ahmed Bedar. They demanded immediate release of all political prisoners including the Bar President, Mian Abdul Qayoom.

In a letter addressed to the Secretary General of United Nations, Ban Ki Moon, the APHC Chairman, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq termed Jammu and Kashmir as a nuclear flashpoint and said that no peace could be guaranteed in South Asia unless the Kashmir dispute was amicably settled. He demanded revocation of the draconian law, Armed Forces Special Powers Act, withdrawal of troops from the territory and release of all illegally detained Hurriyet leaders and activists.

The Chairperson of Dukhteran-e-Millat, Syeda Aasiya Andrabi in a statement in Srinagar said that the martyrs of 13th July, 1931 had laid foundation of freedom struggle and the Kashmiris were determined to take their mission to its logical conclusion.

Addressing a function, at Slough in UK, organised to commemorate sacrifices of the martyrs, the Executive Director of Kashmir Centre, London, Professor Nazir Ahmed Shawl appealed to the international community to use its influence to stop India from massive human rights violations in occupied Kashmir.

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## amit27

His soul will live on and he is a shaheed RIP he died protecting indian soil.

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## Dr.Evil

For every soldier and civilian killed in India by terrorists, We should takeout 10 members of their family & supporters.

Then only those barbarians will come to some senses.


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## IBRIS

Title of the thread is something that needs more attention than any keyboard warrior opinion of pakistani. 

I shall enjoy the next pakistani soldier dies by the bullet of TTP now since members here are openly declaring there satisfaction of their hypocrite mindset. 

I salute the brave Indian Soldiers who have given there life to protect the integrity of my Nation. At least we don't surrender to rag-tag loosers when we are near death. History have proved how we Indians have shown the entire world how capable we are when we are pitched in battlefields. 

Some of the members in the recent posts made it clear how much worth the life of terrorist mercenary sponsored by pakistan is. No wonder you can't take Kashmir from us. 

JEO MERAY JAWANO, Our History is full of sacrifices of Brave MEN & WOMEN. No Tom, Dick & harry has the b@!ls to take it from us. 

*JAI HIND, JAI JAWAN, JAI KISAN*

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## Areesh

IBRIS said:


> Title of the thread is something that needs more attention than any keyboard warrior opinion of pakistani.
> 
> *I shall enjoy the next pakistani soldier dies by the bullet of TTP now since members here are openly declaring there satisfaction of their hypocrite mindset. *
> 
> I salute the brave Indian Soldiers who have given there life to protect the integrity of my Nation. At least we don't surrender to rag-tag loosers when we are near death. History have proved how we Indians have shown the entire world how capable we are when we are pitched in battlefields.
> 
> Some of the members in the recent posts made it clear how much worth the life of terrorist mercenary sponsored by pakistan is. No wonder you can't take Kashmir from us.
> 
> JEO MERAY JAWANO, Our History is full of sacrifices of Brave MEN & WOMEN. No Tom, Dick & harry has the b@!ls to take it from us.
> 
> *JAI HIND, JAI JAWAN, JAI KISAN*



Who cares whether you enjoy it or not. Who cares who or what you are?

Lolzzz


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## Areesh

Blames Omar Abdullah for creating the mess; Indian police on verge of revolt; Pakistani spokesman says Kashmiri struggle is indigenous(Special to The News)



> Thursday, July 15, 2010
> By Arun Rajnath
> 
> NEW DELHI: *A leading Indian intelligence agency has absolved Pakistan of any involvement and fomenting unrest in the Kashmir Valley but has blamed chief minister of Indian-held J&K Omar Abdullah for messing up the situation.*
> 
> A report on the Kashmir situation handed over by the Intelligence Bureau to the Ministry of Home Affairs in New Delhi also blames some second wrung separatist leaders of trying to cash in on the situation, officials who have seen the report say.
> 
> A recent visit to Srinagar by this correspondent revealed that the crisis has deepened so much that the local police force in the Valley is on the brink of revolt.
> 
> Some quarters contend that Chief Minister Omar Abdullah has lost control over the administration and infighting within the ruling National Conference has intensified.
> 
> *According to the IB report, all frontline separatist leadership is either in jail or under house arrest or under strict monitoring, hence, it is not possible for them to directly instigate protestors to adopt extreme steps. There has been no terrorist activity in the Valley during protests, or no attempt of infiltration during these anarchic days. That shows that Pakistan cannot be blamed for the situation in the Valley.*
> 
> When contacted Additional Director General (Media and Communication) for Ministry of Home Affairs Onkar Kedia was out of station on leave but his deputy, Director (Media and Communication) for Ministry of Home Affairs Ravinder Singh simply said: I have no knowledge of any such report.
> 
> *Spokesman of the Pakistan High Commission in New Delhi Press Minister Shah Zaman when asked to comment on the report told this correspondent: Pakistan has never interfered in Kashmir. We give diplomatic and moral support to the people of Kashmir. There is no interference from Pakistans side. Kashmir is a disputed area and Pakistan and India should resolve it according to the wishes of the Kashmiri people.*
> 
> The Pakistani official said as far as the present uprising in Kashmir is concerned, it is entirely indigenous. If human rights violations continue and army and the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) would continue their operations, Kashmiri people would also continue to protest.
> 
> When this correspondent recently visited Srinagar, it was clear that prior to the deployment of the Indian army, only CRPF was entrusted with the job of maintaining law and order in towns but the local police force remained complacent or silent spectators.
> 
> In the first of the two major instances, in Maisuma when locals assembled before the police station and raised slogans against the government and shouted pro Azadi slogans, police kept silent and took no action. In Batmalu where some agitated local youth gathered outside the police station, the police refused to act. The administration had to send in CRPF to disperse the mob.
> 
> *A veteran Indian police officer on request of anonymity said: I would say that local policemen are fed up with the government because we have to face the ire of people. Police easily becomes the target for no fault of theirs. Government and top administration are chiefly responsible for the situation.*
> 
> When asked if the provincial police force was close to a revolt, he said: You have freedom of speech, so you can use any word. But I feel revolt is a strong word. You can say the provincial police force is dissatisfied and to some extent it has become disenchanted with the Omar administration. This could prove dangerous in the long run.
> 
> On the other hand infighting within the ruling coalition has erupted. Central minister for health and family welfare and former chief minister of the state Ghulam Nabi Azad and former water resources minister Prof. Saifuddin Soz (both Congress) do not even talk to each other. Minister for New and Renewable Energy Dr. Farooq Abdullah is their common political foe. Both of them are allegedly trying to unseat Farooqs son Omar Abdullah.
> 
> Congress party sources say since Prof. Soz has been deprived of the Cabinet berth in the Centre, he wishes to be adjusted in the politics of the Valley.
> 
> As far as National Conference is concerned, two leaders have silently emerged as contenders for Omar Abdullahs position. They are J&K law and parliamentary affairs minister Ali Mohammad Sagar and finance minister Abdul Rahim Rather.
> 
> A confidant of Abdul Rahim Rather said: Omar Abdullah does not even take calls from Mr. Rather, and he superciliously ignores many senior leaders of the party.
> 
> When asked about alleged infighting within the National Conference, Rathers confidant said: In fact infighting is not new to the party. As a matter of fact it has surfaced during the present Kashmir crisis. National Conference has become Jebi Party (pocket party) of the Shaikh family.
> 
> The confidant sarcastically added: Omar Abdullah is surrounded by some young ministers and his business partners. In fact, the state administration is being run on the lines of a business house. The Omar administration directly deals with the CRPF ignoring ground realities and local police administration. You should know that local police administration does have influence over local population because they interact directly with one another, but since businessmen rely more on CRPF, the situation is getting out of control.
> 
> He said: On the one hand Mr. Rather openly criticises the CRPF for its extreme actions, and on the other, chief minister praises the role of the CRPF and claims everything is under control. Anybody can smell discontent within the party.
> 
> *Maruti-Suzuki car dealer and Omar Abdullahs advisor and spokesperson Devender Rana is a big car dealer and owns showrooms in Srinagar, Jammu and New Delhi. He belongs to Jammu and he is said to be a business partner of Omar Adbullah. He was, however, not available for comments despite repeated attempts to get Omar Abdullahs point of view.*
> 
> Meanwhile, Farooq Abdullah urged Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh and Home Minister P. Chidambaram on July 10, 2010 to pre-empt any move of Ghulam Nabi Azad and Prof. Saifuddin Soz that could prove dangerous for his son.
> 
> Congress sources say both the leaders have categorically told him that to maintain law and order is a state matter, and Omar Abdullah has to stop the situation from worsening.



 Top Indian agency absolves Pakistan of fomenting unrest in Kashmir

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## Spring Onion

This is a conspiracy theory by ISI to pressurise Indian TOP agencies for absolving Pakistan otherwise the stones Kashmiri youth throw on occupying terrorist Indian army, are smuggled into Held Kashmir from Pakistan.


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## RobbieS

This wont be off the mark. With leaders behind bars its hard for external forces to manipulate the masses. Unless there are some new lower-rung leaders who are carrying on their activities while the top-rung is absent.

But the following statement is worth its weight in gold!



> Spokesman of the Pakistan High Commission in New Delhi Press Minister Shah Zaman when asked to comment on the report told this correspondent: &#8220;*Pakistan has never interfered in Kashmir.* We give diplomatic and moral support to the people of Kashmir. There is no interference from Pakistan&#8217;s side. Kashmir is a disputed area and Pakistan and India should resolve it according to the wishes of the Kashmiri people.&#8221;


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## Awesome

HA!!!!

hahahahaha (had to fill up some space).


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## IndianArmy

Jana said:


> This is a conspiracy theory by ISI to pressurise Indian TOP agencies for absolving Pakistan otherwise the stones Kashmiri youth throw on occupying terrorist Indian army, are smuggled into Held Kashmir from Pakistan.



Jana Ji, thoda shant Ho jayiaga, Aapko mamla pata Nahi to kyo na aap Chup beth jayiye? This is not the Time or Place to Pass Your sarcastic comments . We do Know what's running Inside the so called Azad kashmir, We dont seek Unity in Disturbing Other country. pakistan is United today Just because of its Anti-India policy.... And your Govt would adopt any cheap tactics to stay United....And We all know that, We are trying our best to deal it diplomatically,How Much time will it take for us to adopt Your strategy??? you too have a disputed region, please do not forget that.


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## JonAsad

Where is the indian laughing brigade?? Trolling regiment?? Now?

One Question:
if it is so, the news is true, have we stopped supporting kashmiri people and their struggle for independence?


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## IndianArmy

jonasad said:


> Where is the indian laughing brigade?? Trolling regiment?? Now?
> 
> One Question:
> if it is so, the news is true, have we stopped supporting kashmiri people and their struggle for independence?



Please do not Stop supporting them, Support them to the extent you can.... Let the Protest and Violence take shape In the valley, There would be Hardly any Compromise from Our Side....

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## Spring Onion

IndianArmy said:


> Jana Ji, thoda shant Ho jayiaga, Aapko mamla pata Nahi to kyo na aap Chup beth jayiye? This is not the Time or Place to Pass Your sarcastic comments . We do Know what's running Inside the so called Azad kashmir, We dont seek Unity in Disturbing Other country. pakistan is United today Just because of its Anti-India policy.... And your Govt would adopt any cheap tactics to stay United....And We all know that, We are trying our best to deal it diplomatically,How Much time will it take for us to adopt Your strategy??? you too have a disputed region, please do not forget that.



Aray Major sahab hum tau shant hee shant hain. Lakin ap bhee thora sa tau bhagwan ka kof karo. chotay chotay bachoon ko fake encounter main mar ka bhee ap ka zameer malamat nai karta ap ko 


Pakistan is united due to Indian terrorism and Indian hate since the creation and we have seen your terrorism in one part of Pakistan .

Unfortunately Pakistan did not find time to have a full fledged solid anti-India policy because as soon as we got independence we had many financial, military and other problems sans resources. Then came 65 war then came Indian terrorism in 71 and then came Afghan war. 

So i feel personally we have not found time to have an anti-India policy and the day we are free to do it then i am sure you will see what does it mean.


On the other hand as far as diplomacy for resolving Kashmir issue well India has never done that, thats why you have to post more than half a million force in Indian Occupied Kashmir to quell public protest.

Indian government will keep on using cheap tactics like showing fake shining India, fake elitism on its vulgar TV soups and shows to keep its population in dark about the dark and poor side of India as well as keep them away from what is going on in Held Kashmir.

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## Areesh

IndianArmy said:


> *Please *do not Stop supporting them, Support them to the extent you can.... Let the Protest and Violence take shape In the valley, There would be Hardly any Compromise from Our Side....



Don't say please sir. We won't stop our support for them and there freedom movement. We are always there with them in their struggle.

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## Guynextdoor

I think the real problem is that we let seperatist leaders free and roam around for so long. We should've been tougher with them before itself. Else things would never have become a 'bit' fomented. No problems, we'll handle it.


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## IndianArmy

jana Ji, Pakistan today Is standing in the Depth of Anti-India policy and Any further would Sink it.... Pakistan's atrocities were And are Witnessed By the World ever Since its independence, No Matter In any part of the world , Any terrorist activites occur, The Root Cause Is Pakistan and Its Intelligence agency... So its Not Only towards India, Pakistan has an Anti-World policy to be fair Enough....

And I Dont say India is a poor Innocent Kid Licking A Lolly pop... India is No Different, But the Only thing is People Are United In India Seeing the development In India Not because of Anti-pakistan Policy... Atleast I dont see My Foreign Minister Crying Anti-pakistan Slogans and Inciting the masses .

Thanks for reminding me about 1971 war, its the Prize you Paid for disturbing us since independence


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## Spring Onion

Guynextdoor said:


> I think the real problem is that we let seperatist leaders free and roam around for so long. We should've been tougher with them before itself. Else things would never have become a 'bit' fomented. No problems, we'll handle it.



You had been tougher than that with them. These Kashmiri political leaders have been arrested and jailed by Indian occupying authorities more than half of their age, they have spent in jails.

even an old man of about 80 years Mr Gillani is arrested and put in jail even now at this age too.

No sooner the protests start in Held Kashmir India puts a curfew there so this gives an idea that despite curfew the Kashmiris protest which proves they are against Indian invasion and Indian State Terrorism in their Occupied land


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## JonAsad

Guynextdoor said:


> I think the real problem is that we let seperatist leaders free and roam around for so long. We should've been tougher with them before itself. Else things would never have become a 'bit' fomented. No problems, we'll handle it.



and these separist movement leaders made a big mistake by giving up arms and opting for a peaceful struggle. Big Mistake


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## chachachoudhary

So, you want indians to believe a pakistani news agency absolving Pakistan.

This agency has more access to indian intelligence agency than indian news agency.

Give us any other source please.

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## Areesh

chachachoudhary said:


> So, you want indians to believe a pakistani news agency absolving Pakistan.
> 
> This agency has more access to indian intelligence agency than indian news agency.
> 
> Give us any other source please.



Tell all indians on this forum not to post anything from TOI, PTI, DNA india or other Indian sources when it comes to IOK.


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## ambidex

What a third class assessment from IB level to keep Pakistan off the hook that there is no recent infiltration and most of the separatist are detained. Author could have done better without mentioning Pakistan (poor effort).

There is no link between recent infiltration or past infiltration with riots on the streets. However our forces are most busy at the border and taking toll with frequent ceasefire violation by Pakistan. Just during the peak of protest our men were killed engaging infiltrators.

Also a prisoned separatist's mobile calls were traced when he was operating from Jail and was encouraging people to start rioting and stone pelting.

I think this article has lost its credibility and is worth calling junk.


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## JonAsad

chachachoudhary said:


> So, here goes your lies, right?
> 
> Just 5-6 posts and the lies are bare open. Try harder next time.



Chacha, do you know who the writer Arun Rajnath is?


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## Awesome

> The Associated Press: Protesters, police face off on streets of Kashmir
> 
> SRINAGAR, India  The capital of Indian-controlled Kashmir is seething with rage.
> 
> Over the past month, crowds of young men demanding independence from India have held mass protests and pounded police with stones. Authorities hit back with rolling curfews, large-scale arrests and a rare deployment by the army into the streets of Srinagar.
> 
> The violence, which has killed 15 protesters and bystanders, set a tense backdrop for a meeting Thursday between the foreign ministers of India and Pakistan, nuclear-armed neighbors that fought two wars over the divided Himalayan region and have been unable to reach agreement over its future.
> 
> Hopes for the talks were further clouded after the top official in Pakistan-held Kashmir called on thousands of members of banned militant groups Tuesday to drive India out of all of Kashmir.
> 
> Those inside Kashmir say they have run out of patience waiting for the two countries  who each claim the entire region as its own  to get their peace efforts back on track after the 2008 Mumbai attacks. Now, they are taking matters into their own hands.
> 
> "People have lost faith," separatist leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq said from his home in Srinagar, where authorities are keeping him under house arrest after he led several street marches. "*The constituency of peace is shrinking day by day.*"
> 
> In the nearly empty alleys and warrens of Srinagar, "*Go Back India*" is carved into wooden doors, painted on the streets and written in careful block letters on the walls. Razor wire is uncoiled across roads as paramilitary forces in helmets and padded vests enforce curfew restrictions that have been in place on-and-off since last month.
> 
> A war between armed insurgents and government forces that began in 1989 and left 68,000 dead has ebbed, with militant violence dropping every year. The new protesters favor marches, sit-ins and rock barrages to challenge the security forces ubiquitous throughout the cities, towns and villages of Indian Kashmir.
> 
> "*We don't want the world to see us as hooligans carrying guns. We want a peaceful movement, but we are forced to resort to stones,*" said Ahmed, a 27-year-old coppersmith, as he drank milky tea in a bare concrete room off an alley. Like all the protesters interviewed, Ahmed declined to give his last name for fear he would be picked up by security forces who have arrested hundreds of people in recent weeks, including the head of Kashmir's Bar Association.
> Life in the Nowshera neighborhood now follows a daily rhythm. The security forces keep the area locked down during the day and when they withdraw in the evening, the residents come out of their homes and bombard them with stones, said Ahmed. Troops retaliate by smashing windows on their way out, he said.
> 
> "*The harder they push, the harder we become*," said Shafat, 25, whose brother was disappeared, and presumably killed, in 1991.
> Outside, a group of men sitting in front of a shop jump up and instinctively run when they hear a car turn the corner, presuming it to be paramilitary troops.
> 
> Many protest leaders have gone underground, and students Naweed, 21, and Ubaid, 20, were so concerned about being nabbed they sent Associated Press journalists to a series of destinations, where they would call with new directions, to ensure they weren't being followed.
> The men demanded India immediately withdraw the security forces from the cities and towns, rescind laws giving troops special powers here and release those arrested.
> 
> "*We just want freedom. That's it,*" said Ubaid, as he stood among a group of men showing off their scars from rubber bullets and live rounds fired by security forces in recent years.
> 
> *The men denied Indian accusations that Pakistani militants orchestrated the violence and even paid protesters.
> Chief Minister Omar Abdullah said the protests were probably some combination of militant agitation and spontaneous anger, and he defended the government crackdown as vital to calming the street.*
> 
> "I had to put a stop to this cycle of violence," he said, even as he acknowledged only a political solution to the Kashmir issue could bring long-term peace.
> 
> The demonstrations are becoming an annual ritual in Kashmir. When the snow melts in the spring, tempers flare, and angry residents find plenty of reasons to take to the streets.
> 
> *In 2008, thousands protested the transfer of 100 acres (40 hectares) of land to a Hindu shrine, which the Kashmiris saw as an attempt to force demographic change on the only Muslim-majority region in India.
> 
> Last summer, reports that two women were raped and murdered by security forces provided the spark. A federal investigation later said they accidentally drowned.*
> 
> *Last month, anger boiled over again with even more ferocity when a teenager was killed after being hit in the head by a tear gas grenade fired by police.*
> 
> "It's the environment of despair, disillusionment, which is largely responsible," said Mohammed Yusuf Tarigami, a communist lawmaker.
> 
> The protests have driven out tourists at the height of the season, forced businesses to close in the face of rotating strikes and curfews, and cost a region that was growing ever-more prosperous with the waning of the insurgency billions of rupees (hundreds of millions of dollars).
> 
> It also wiped out the rare optimism that emerged after the 2008 election that brought Abdullah to power. Many in Srinagar now say they have lost faith in their politicians.
> 
> *For now, the young men in the streets say they remain loyal to Farooq and other separatist leaders, but their anger could make compromise difficult.*
> 
> "*We've told our leaders to accept nothing short of freedom," said Ahmed. "The moment they sell out, we will stone them as well.*"



Kashmiris will not stop this time around! 

I always knew Mirwaiz had it in him to consolidate the protest.

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## pyazdani945@gmail.com

NO BROTHER .IT IS OBLIGATION OF EVERY PAKISTANI BECOZ IT IS THEIR RIGHT BUT IF ANYONE ATTACK TO OUR LAND SO,WE SHOULD OFFENSE OF OUR RIGHTS SO IT IS A DISSCUSSION FORUM YOU SHOULD KNOW THE OPINIONS AND FIND THE TRUTH WHAT IS GOOD.


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## chachachoudhary

jonasad said:


> Chacha, do you know who the writer Arun Rajnath is?



Yes, very well. He is a retard who is perennially at odd against indian intelligence agencies. He has accused *indian intel agencies harrassing him* time and again.

SOUTH ASIAN TRIBUNE

PS: Do you know who owns South Asian Tribune? You answer my question now.


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## Aslan

IndianArmy said:


> jana Ji, Pakistan today Is standing in the Depth of Anti-India policy and Any further would Sink it.... Pakistan's atrocities were And are Witnessed By the World ever Since its independence, No Matter In any part of the world , Any terrorist activites occur, The Root Cause Is Pakistan and Its Intelligence agency... So its Not Only towards India, Pakistan has an Anti-World policy to be fair Enough....
> 
> And I Dont say India is a poor Innocent Kid Licking A Lolly pop... India is No Different, But the Only thing is People Are United In India Seeing the development In India Not because of Anti-pakistan Policy... Atleast I dont see My Foreign Minister Crying Anti-pakistan Slogans and Inciting the masses .
> 
> Thanks for reminding me about 1971 war, its the Prize you Paid for disturbing us since independence




Well sir sorry for jumping in the middle of the argument as you were talking to Jana, and I am quoting you from that statement. 
But please wake up from your sleep try to smell some coffee. "Pakistan has the anti world policy" I could help but feel sorry on your ignorance, and this goes on to show that a person who has held a responsible position in a society is brainwashed to such an extent then we shouldn't be surprised on the predicament of others. And as far as your FM's not saying any thing about Pakistan, well your whole gov functions on the basis of Anti Pakistan agendas, we see it every where in every statement of theirs. In any acquisition's that we make, and still you guys are living in a lala land believing your selfs to be saints. Well sorry to say but your views are just


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## Aslan

And wow at the indians when their own IB is saying that Pakistan is not involved they are trying to find any excuses in that as well, just for the sake of blaming Pakistan. Pathetic I say.


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## chachachoudhary

khalidali said:


> indians when their own IB is saying that Pakistan is not involved




I did not know our IB has hired a pakistani news agency to publish their findings.

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## Areesh

jonasad said:


> Chacha, do you know who the writer Arun Rajnath is?



They only believe in that news or propaganda which satifies their occupation of Kashmir. Nothing new from this nation.


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## Aslan

chachachoudhary said:


> I did not know our IB has hired a pakistani news agency to publish their findings.



So you cant find that in any of your own papers or they just simply refused to believe it. Just like you.

You guys just cant accept the failures in your own system, and have to blame us for every thing related or not. I wonder if there was no Pakistan then who would have been the reason for the garbage that flies out of your country.


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## IndianArmy

khalidali said:


> Well sir sorry for jumping in the middle of the argument as you were talking to Jana, and I am quoting you from that statement.
> But please wake up from your sleep try to smell some coffee. "Pakistan has the anti world policy" I could help but feel sorry on your ignorance, and this goes on to show that a person who has held a responsible position in a society is brainwashed to such an extent then we shouldn't be surprised on the predicament of others. And as far as your FM's not saying any thing about Pakistan, well your whole gov functions on the basis of Anti Pakistan agendas, we see it every where in every statement of theirs. In any acquisition's that we make, and still you guys are living in a lala land believing your selfs to be saints. Well sorry to say but your views are just



Dear, You are Jumping into the Middle As you said, but Since you have Jumped In, I would Like to reply to you....You questioned My Society,I Live in a Society where people are Not Free to use Weapons, I Live in a Society which Does not want the Normal Citizen of its to have Craze towards Sophisticated Weapons Which Inturn would Create Anti Social Elements ....

No Matter what you tell, what you think but My point stands Still....Yes Pakistan is the root cause of terror, The man in Your avatar(zardari) Himself said so, dint he???


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## chachachoudhary

Yes Jonasad I am waiting. I have answered your question, now you answer mine.

Who owns South Asian Tribune for which Arun Rajnath works?


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## indushek

Jana said:


> Aray Major sahab hum tau shant hee shant hain. Lakin ap bhee thora sa tau bhagwan ka kof karo. chotay chotay bachoon ko fake encounter main mar ka bhee ap ka zameer malamat nai karta ap ko
> 
> 
> Pakistan is united due to Indian terrorism and Indian hate since the creation and we have seen your terrorism in one part of Pakistan .
> 
> Unfortunately Pakistan did not find time to have a full fledged solid anti-India policy because as soon as we got independence we had many financial, military and other problems sans resources. Then came 65 war then came Indian terrorism in 71 and then came Afghan war.
> 
> So i feel personally we have not found time to have an anti-India policy and the day we are free to do it then i am sure you will see what does it mean.
> 
> 
> On the other hand as far as diplomacy for resolving Kashmir issue well India has never done that, thats why you have to post more than half a million force in Indian Occupied Kashmir to quell public protest.
> 
> Indian government will keep on using cheap tactics like showing fake shining India, fake elitism on its vulgar TV soups and shows to keep its population in dark about the dark and poor side of India as well as keep them away from what is going on in Held Kashmir.



As much u try to pull the garb of righteousness and modesty in ur posts hate for India is quite evident in your posts. Also of what what terrorism are u talking about TTP , what are u talking they are freedom fighters fighting for their rights just as those that were fighting against India from long time. 

I know u will not agree but this logic was propounded by you, yes because once in a thread about Bhagat Singh u asked us Indians to accept that if he is a freedom fighter then those in Kashmir are also the same and if they are terrorists he is too. So by this logic TTp are also Freedom fighters aren't they.

Our Intelligence agencies have pulled up lot of reports reporting ISI hand and then u couldn't find them reliable because they are from India right!!! but now since a postive report has come out u pounce on this. Chalak ha bahut chalak. But cleverness is not urs only. Mind it.

Greatest hypocracy this is by all Pakistani members, so according to you the Indian sources are credible only when they come up with something positive about Pakistan.


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## Aslan

IndianArmy said:


> Dear, You are Jumping into the Middle As you said, but Since you have Jumped In, I would Like to reply to you....You questioned My Society,I Live in a Society where people are Not Free to use Weapons, I Live in a Society which Does not want the Normal Citizen of its to have Craze towards Sophisticated Weapons Which Inturn would Create Anti Social Elements ....
> 
> No Matter what you tell, what you think but My point stands Still....Yes Pakistan is the root cause of terror, The man in Your avatar(zardari) Himself said so, dint he???



Well you are right your society is not the one where any one can use weapons, but aint it the same society that has a record of ethic riots. Heck you guys have 2 Favorited sports, cricket, and then killing any one that is in a minority. And yes the society that you live in dont keep weapons to do so as they get state sponsorship of weapons when needed. 

And what a man you are quoting to make your point, but still I would doubt it that he had said it exactly the way you are referring it to be. So I would like you to present a quote a reference to your claim regarding Zardaris statements. 

And finally when ones own hands are not clean, you should not shamelessly point fingers at others dirt. Or unless you are shamelessly just doing it.

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## Aslan

indushek said:


> As much u try to pull the garb of righteousness and modesty in ur posts hate for India is quite evident in your posts. Also of what what terrorism are u talking about TTP , what are u talking they are freedom fighters fighting for their rights just as those that were fighting against India from long time.
> 
> I know u will not agree but this logic was propounded by you, yes because once in a thread about Bhagat Singh u asked us Indians to accept that if he is a freedom fighter then those in Kashmir are also the same and if they are terrorists he is too. So by this logic TTp are also Freedom fighters aren't they.
> 
> Our Intelligence agencies have pulled up lot of reports reporting ISI hand and then u couldn't find them reliable because they are from India right!!! but now since a postive report has come out u pounce on this. Chalak ha bahut chalak. But cleverness is not urs only. Mind it.
> 
> Greatest hypocracy this is by all Pakistani members, so according to you the Indian sources are credible only when they come up with something positive about Pakistan.




Do you even in your right mind have an idea of a freedom fighter. Or are just spewing f!lth just for the sake of it.


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## IndianArmy

khalidali said:


> Well you are right your society is not the one where any one can use weapons, but aint it the same society that has a record of ethic riots. Heck you guys have 2 Favorited sports, cricket, and then killing any one that is in a minority. And yes the society that you live in dont keep weapons to do so as they get state sponsorship of weapons when needed.
> 
> And what a man you are quoting to make your point, but still I would doubt it that he had said it exactly the way you are referring it to be. So I would like you to present a quote a reference to your claim regarding Zardaris statements.
> 
> And finally when ones own hands are not clean, you should not shamelessly point fingers at others dirt. Or unless you are shamelessly just doing it.



Riots are A part of Democratic Governance, If there is No Riots and protest we dont deserve to be called a Democratic ,Secular Nation.... but that Dosent mean that the law Keepers Stay Calm and Watch the Protest end in a Violence....

My Country is a True Evidence of Secularism, My Country's defense was framed by a Muslim, My Countries Nation Is standing tall In front of the World because of a Sikh, My Nation Is Governed By a Hindu, My Nations Defense is handed Over to a Christian....

And Zardaris words are Not needed to be quoted, You know it Yourself what he said, Dint he say that the Terror was Started in Pakistan to destabilize India??? Now arnt the same terrorists Around the world, creating a Mess Of this globe? What should one call it Other than Global Terrorism???????? 

*Our Hands Are clean, we are not a Liability to the World......*

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## Aslan

IndianArmy said:


> Riots are A part of Democratic Governance, If there is No Riots and protest we dont deserve to be called a Democratic ,Secular Nation.... but that Dosent mean that the law Keepers Stay Calm and Watch the Protest end in a Violence....
> 
> My Country is a True Evidence of Secularism, My Country's defense was framed by a Muslim, My Countries Nation Is standing tall In front of the World because of a Sikh, My Nation Is Governed By a Hindu, My Nations Defense is handed Over to a Christian....
> 
> And Zardaris words are Not needed to be quoted, You know it Yourself what he said, Dint he say that the Terror was Started in Pakistan to destabilize India??? Now arnt the same terrorists Around the world, creating a Mess Of this globe? What should one call it Other than Global Terrorism????????



I hope that you do know the definition of hallucination, well good luck living in one.

*Our Hands Are clean, we are not a Liability to the World......*

So are ours, and we dont have to answer to you guys for any thing neither do we owe you guys any thing. So keep your thoughts, so your so called well wishes, and your mombo Jombo to your self. And this is not an advise to you only sir but to your entire country, that we are who we are not what you think we are, and definitely what you want the whole world to think we are.


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## IndianArmy

khalidali said:


> I hope that you do know the definition of hallucination, well good luck living in one.
> 
> *Our Hands Are clean, we are not a Liability to the World......*
> 
> So are ours, and we dont have to answer to you guys for any thing neither do we owe you guys any thing. So keep your thoughts, so your so called well wishes, and your mombo Jombo to your self. And this is not an advise to you only sir but to your entire country, that we are who we are not what you think we are, and definitely what you want the whole world to think we are.



Hallucination, the word By itself Is used at a Wrong place at the wrong time, is it to prove that you have the command Over time? Hallucination is not a Disease to see the right as Wrong or Wrong as Right For your Kind Information....

Next, I never asked you to prove me anything, Since your Jumped Into the discussion between me and jana Your self, I expected Basic Courtesy From you and to atleast defend your stand, but If You cannot Stand ,Atleast from the next time, avoid Trying to jump into the Middle without any Proper Defense......

And A Doubt, what is Mombo Jumbo???


----------



## indushek

khalidali said:


> Do you even in your right mind have an idea of a freedom fighter. Or are just spewing f!lth just for the sake of it.



Yeah i know the feeling this was how i felt when Jana was talking about Bhagat singh not too long back. And i was replying to her about TTP not in general, just wait till she comes up with her trade mark circasm riddled post.


----------



## JonAsad

chachachoudhary said:


> Yes, very well. He is a retard who is perennially at odd against indian intelligence agencies. He has accused *indian intel agencies harrassing him* time and again.
> 
> SOUTH ASIAN TRIBUNE
> 
> PS: Do you know who owns South Asian Tribune? You answer my question now.



I have no idea who owns it now, last time i checked it was closed..
Maybe you can shed more light on that.


----------



## KS

Areesh said:


> Tell all indians on this forum not to post anything from TOI, PTI, DNA india or other Indian sources when it comes to IOK.



This is ur forum as u proudly proclaim.....So please lead by example.

From now on no Indian sources from INdians and no Pak sources from Pakistanis..

Do we have a deal..?


----------



## Aslan

IndianArmy said:


> Hallucination, the word By itself Is used at a Wrong place at the wrong time, is it to prove that you have the command Over time? Hallucination is not a Disease to see the right as Wrong or Wrong as Right For your Kind Information....
> 
> Next, I never asked you to prove me anything, Since your Jumped Into the discussion between me and jana Your self, I expected Basic Courtesy From you and to atleast defend your stand, but If You cannot Stand ,Atleast from the next time, avoid Trying to jump into the Middle without any Proper Defense......
> 
> And A Doubt, what is Mombo Jumbo???



Well sir normally if I make the same statement about jumping in to some one which I once did to an indian friend, he simply told me that this is a forum of discussion and so I dont hold any ground to complain, but still I excused my self into an argument and not the other way around. 

As far as every thing else is concerned, I dont have to defend the honor of my country in front of some one who have already made up their mind and dont want to look the other way around. 

And if in your defense you want to quote to me Zardari, well then good luck trying to prove your point. The man in a renowned thug, and not sincerer to Pakistan at all. He will say any thing that will please his masters. 



there are issues in Pakistan, and there are issues in your country as well, ours get highlighted more then yours, but that does not mean that our problems are bigger. And the statement of yours that Pakistan is the epicenter of terrorism, well sir you have forgotten the terrorism that your own country have exported to others over the years. 

Now I am sure that you didnt like my statement, I know it was disrespectful to your country eh. But so were you. 


And Ps if you think that what is happening in the world due to terrorism today is due to Pak then you need to go back and do some reading on the role of CIA, and the likes of them.


----------



## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> This is ur forum as u proudly proclaim.....So please lead by example.
> 
> From now on no Indian sources from INdians and no Pak sources from Pakistanis..
> 
> Do we have a deal..?



No no deal.


----------



## IndianArmy

khalidali said:


> Well sir normally if I make the same statement about jumping in to some one which I once did to an indian friend, he simply told me that this is a forum of discussion and so I dont hold any ground to complain, but still I excused my self into an argument and not the other way around.



Well I dint know the Meaning of Mumbo jumbo, as I havent used or came across that word before....



khalidali said:


> As far as every thing else is concerned, I dont have to defend the honor of my country in front of some one who have already made up their mind and dont want to look the other way around.



Iam Not Asking you to defend Your land and Honor it, I just expected You to Stand by your argument as you Yourself jumped In dear... And I never make Up my mind before Arguing, I have appreciated where it is expected and Equally Argued where I Know I am Right and When proved wrong I have also Asked Sorry With my heart open...



khalidali said:


> And if in your defense you want to quote to me Zardari, well then good luck trying to prove your point. The man in a renowned thug, and not sincerer to Pakistan at all. He will say any thing that will please his masters.



Zardari is Not My defense, he is Just another example.....He is your president, elected By your own people, so his Voice is your nations voice, And if nation By itself says its the cause then what could one do?



khalidali said:


> there are issues in Pakistan, and there are issues in your country as well, ours get highlighted more then yours, but that does not mean that our problems are bigger. And the statement of yours that Pakistan is the epicenter of terrorism, well sir you have forgotten the terrorism that your own country have exported to others over the years.



I never said there are no issues In My Country??? Did You check what your member jana Wrote, Before you just Supported her??? Well Bigger Problems are Highlighted, a Snake Bite Is Always Ahead of an ant bite....My Nation has Not Exported terror, no nation has Pointed its Fingers towards India till date, and pakistan is Without any proof.... 



khalidali said:


> Now I am sure that you didnt like my statement, I know it was disrespectful to your country eh. But so were you.



I was, Accepted, But have you Researched upon why I was so? what Provoked me to do so???




khalidali said:


> And Ps if you think that what is happening in the world due to terrorism today is due to Pak then you need to go back and do some reading on the role of CIA, and the likes of them.




CIA and ISI created Taliban, So Both of you have Equal or More Rights to control it....


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## JonAsad

chachachoudhary said:


> Yes Jonasad I am waiting. I have answered your question, now you answer mine.
> 
> Who owns South Asian Tribune for which Arun Rajnath works?



i have answered it in Post #41, he is not writing for SAtribune since october 2005, now tell me who Arun Rajnath is currently writing for? Chacha Answer me this

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## Aslan

*IndianArmy;998029]Well I dint know the Meaning of Mumbo jumbo, as I havent used or came across that word before....*

Well Mombo Jombo is Mombo Jombo! 


*Iam Not Asking you to defend Your land and Honor it, I just expected You to Stand by your argument as you Yourself jumped In dear... And I never make Up my mind before Arguing, I have appreciated where it is expected and Equally Argued where I Know I am Right and When proved wrong I have also Asked Sorry With my heart open...*

I was not defending Jana or was not doing so, I was defending my country, just like you were. 


*Zardari is Not My defense, he is Just another example.....He is your president, elected By your own people, so his Voice is your nations voice, And if nation By itself says its the cause then what could one do?*

Well sir it is not as it seems to be Zardari was never elected by us, but rather an entity imposed on us by default. Not a place to talk about so lets let it go. 




*I never said there are no issues In My Country??? Did You check what your member jana Wrote, Before you just Supported her??? Well Bigger Problems are Highlighted, a Snake Bite Is Always Ahead of an ant bite....My Nation has Not Exported terror, no nation has Pointed its Fingers towards India till date, and pakistan is Without any proof.... 
*
A point that can be debated at but again as it has already been done so many times, and no results. So lets just agree to disagree.

*
I was, Accepted, But have you Researched upon why I was so? what Provoked me to do so???*

I understand that you might have been provoked in doing something, but one can be a better man by holding him/her self. Any ways, so many times you see provocations all around on the forum, from members of both the countries, and if every one starts to answer every one, what a khichri it will make. Talking of khichris I am hungry off to lunch. bye. 




*
CIA and ISI created Taliban, So Both of you have Equal or More Rights to control it....*
It is more complicated then just pointing it out at ISI.


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## somebozo

Well in words of Indian propoganda these are all Pakistani agents from ISI, JUI, LeT, etc etc ...One should wonder if Pakistani millitants come bangles in their wrist to hold protest and be sitting ducks for Indian security forces?? Kashmiris dont want to live with India and that is reality. India is keen on exploiting, harassing and exhorting every small nation of South Asia.


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## IndianArmy

khalidali said:


> Well Mombo Jombo is Mombo Jombo!



Ok.......




khalidali said:


> I was not defending Jana or was not doing so, I was defending my country, just like you were.



I was Not defending My Country, I was doing that for over 30 years, Now Iam Defending My Stand..... 




khalidali said:


> Well sir it is not as it seems to be Zardari was never elected by us, but rather an entity imposed on us by default. Not a place to talk about so lets let it go.




Why Is it not a Place to talk, come on you neither tell it nor allow me to tell it, so how do we finish it????




khalidali said:


> A point that can be debated at but again as it has already been done so many times, and no results. So lets just agree to disagree.



Then why are You here, if it has already been debated? Why have you raised the points if you have already debated???Please Justify if not Atleast accept it....




khalidali said:


> I understand that you might have been provoked in doing something, but one can be a better man by holding him/her self. Any ways, so many times you see provocations all around on the forum, from members of both the countries, and if every one starts to answer every one, what a khichri it will make. Talking of khichris I am hungry off to lunch. bye.



Then Why werent You be able to hold Yourself?? you advice pretty well Dear, and you have already made a khichri of the situation....





khalidali said:


> It is more complicated then just pointing it out at ISI.



Then Who is to be blamed, and why????


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## Aslan

IndianArmy said:


> Ok.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was Not defending My Country, I was doing that for over 30 years, Now Iam Defending My Stand.....
> 
> 
> *So now you are being stubborn????
> *
> 
> Why Is it not a Place to talk, come on you neither tell it nor allow me to tell it, so how do we finish it????
> 
> *Becasue this thread is not related to Zardaris elections,
> *
> 
> 
> Then why are You here, if it has already been debated? Why have you raised the points if you have already debated???Please Justify if not Atleast accept it....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then Why werent You be able to hold Yourself?? you advice pretty well Dear, and you have already made a khichri of the situation....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then Who is to be blamed, and why????



I guess I am not making sense to you right now, so I am going to take a step back. Bye.

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## IndianArmy

khalidali said:


> I guess I am not making sense to you right now, so I am going to take a step back. Bye.



You have for the first time made a wise decision. Bye



khalidali said:


> So now you are being stubborn????




Iam Being Argumentative, Thats all 



khalidali said:


> Becasue this thread is not related to Zardaris elections



Well, But Zardari is just a prime Verdict here

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## RescueRanger

Can anyone provide us a link that is contrary or contradicts this report? If not then please learn to accept the bitter truth.


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## somebozo

jonasad said:


> Where is the indian laughing brigade?? Trolling regiment?? Now?
> 
> One Question:
> if it is so, the news is true, have we stopped supporting kashmiri people and their struggle for independence?



Kashmiris know what do they want contanary to all India propoganda, Pakistan has never attempted to indoctrinate Kashmiris for their political aims. Kashmiris are struggling for freedom and we support them morally. All Indian propoganda viod.


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## chachachoudhary

jonasad said:


> i have answered it in Post #41, he is not writing for SAtribune since october 2005, now tell me who Arun Rajnath is currently writing for? Chacha Answer me this



So, changing skins make a snake less snake? Shaheen Sehbai or Murdoch or Khalil Ur Rehman, does that make a difference? Arun Rajnath has been kicked many times by indian govt for writing bullshyt and irrational things. He is filled with hate for india. He is an indoctrinated person. There are no takers for his crap except Pakistan. Continue to fantasize.


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## Areesh

chachachoudhary said:


> So, changing skins make a snake less snake? Shaheen Sehbai or Murdoch or Khalil Ur Rehman, does that make a difference? Arun Rajnath has been kicked many times by indian govt for writing bullshyt and irrational things. He is filled with hate for india. He is an indoctrinated person. There are no takers for his crap except Pakistan. Continue to fantasize.



It was good you didn't said that ISI used to pay him. Lolllzzz

Anyways there isn't anything which contradicts this report. If someone has something contrary to it please share it with us.


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## chachachoudhary

Areesh said:


> It was good you didn't said that ISI used to pay him. Lolllzzz
> 
> Anyways there isn't anything which contradicts this report. If someone has something contrary to it please share it with us.



No, no nothing contradictory, just these,

India sees LeT hand in Kashmir violence - India - The Times of India

Kashmir unrest: Transcripts show Hizb activist seeking details


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## Areesh

chachachoudhary said:


> No, no nothing contradictory, just these,
> 
> India sees LeT hand in Kashmir violence - India - The Times of India
> 
> Kashmir unrest: Transcripts show Hizb activist seeking details



Hmm. We saw that crap that a few days ago. So whats new?

And the source is again TOI and IE.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> No no deal.



Y not..?Pakistani sources are considered perfectly valid and "genuine" if they bash India but if any Indian news paper says something abt Pakistan it becomes BS..?

Everest of Hypocrisy...


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## chachachoudhary

Areesh said:


> Hmm. We saw that crap that a few days ago. So whats new?
> 
> And the source is again TOI and IE.



Yes, cause TOI and IE are indian newspapers and indian intelligence agencies will share their findings with indian news agencies and not with pakistani news agencies. Got it? I know it is a bit difficult to understand for you, but try harder. Something may just sink in by chance.


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## Spring Onion

chachachoudhary said:


> So, you want indians to believe a pakistani news agency absolving Pakistan.
> 
> This agency has more access to indian intelligence agency than indian news agency.
> 
> Give us any other source please.



Chacha its not a news agency. Its the Jang group of publication which is very near to Indians viz a viz that joint Aman ka tamasha venture with ToI.


BTW *Arun Rajnath* is an Indian working for the paper from Delhi

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## Areesh

chachachoudhary said:


> Yes, cause TOI and IE are indian newspapers and indian intelligence agencies will share their findings with indian news agencies and not with pakistani news agencies. Got it? I know it is a bit difficult to understand for you, but try harder. Something may just sink in by chance.



You also try harder dear. It doesn't contradict anything it is the same crap that Indian media is presenting for past few weeks. The same old BS. Boring. BTW many people consider Jang to be pro Indian. Lolzzz


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## chachachoudhary

Jana said:


> Chacha its not a news agency. Its the Jang group of publication which is very near to Indians viz a viz that joint Aman ka tamasha venture with ToI.
> 
> 
> BTW *Arun Rajnath* is an Indian working for the paper from Delhi



Jana, it is not difficult to know about Arun Rajnath. There is a thing called google. Use it and find it yourself his love for india. I hope this helps.

Jang group? Will you say the same thing for an indian news paper group?


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## Spring Onion

chachachoudhary said:


> Yes, very well. *He is a retard who is perennially at odd against indian intelligence agencies.* He has accused *indian intel agencies harrassing him* time and again.
> 
> SOUTH ASIAN TRIBUNE
> 
> PS: Do you know who owns South Asian Tribune? You answer my question now.



)) oh so next time when you come up with authentic analysis of Hoodbhoy, NFP, Aysha Siddiqa, Kamran Shafi and so on (the list is long) then please do accept the same reasoning for their ranting from our side too


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## Areesh

chachachoudhary said:


> Jana, it is not difficult to know about Arun Rajnath. There is a thing called google. Use it and find it yourself his love for india. I hope this helps.
> 
> Jang group? Will you say the same thing for an indian news paper group?



Chacha so do you have something better or you just want to repeat the old BS?


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## Spring Onion

chachachoudhary said:


> Jana, it is not difficult to know about Arun Rajnath. There is a thing called google. Use it and find it yourself his love for india. I hope this helps.



Please do accept the same reason for all those Pakistani writers who are anti-Pakistan 



> Jang group? Will you say the same thing for an indian news paper group?




Which Indian newspaper group shows as much love for Pakistan and hate for India ??

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## chachachoudhary

Jana said:


> )) oh so next time when you come up with authentic analysis of Hoodbhoy, NFP, Aysha Siddiqa, Kamran Shafi and so on (the list is long) then please do accept the same reasoning for their ranting from our side too



Hell with these...., but I hope you will have no objection to the authentic analysis by "interpol, FBI, and international community at large".


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## chachachoudhary

> Jana;998196]Please do accept the same reason for all those Pakistani writers who are anti-Pakistan



I will be the last person to quote a pakistani in support of any of my discussion. Show any of my thread where I have quoted any pakistani for any argument.



> Which Indian newspaper group shows as much love for Pakistan and hate for India ??



Who says any Pakistani newspaper has love for india? Pakistani newspaper and love for india. Go fool someone else.


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## Spring Onion

chachachoudhary said:


> Hell with these...., but I hope you will have no objection to the authentic analysis by "interpol, FBI, and international community at large".



)) Do you accept these ?? and international community at large also includes Amenity International and other Human rights organisations which you just declare un-authentic


----------



## chachachoudhary

Jana said:


> )) Do you accept these ?? and international community at large also includes Amenity International and other Human rights organisations which you just declare un-authentic



When did I declare amnesty international unauthentic. When did i declare UN unauthentic? When did I declare UN declared terror organization list unauthentic?


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## Roby

Who is this Arun Rajnath anyway? For which Indian newspaper he is working? I cant find any of his columns in Indian newspapers.


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## Awesome

The Associated press laid down a string of comments from various ordinary Kashmiri Youth - They are all pretty vocal against India.


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## Awesome

I think India can handle militants in today's world since there is this perception that a militant fighting for a cause has to be a terrorist and a government killing that militant is on the side of the good.

However what it can't handle is a whole bunch of people coming out in front of the media and denouncing India. India goes around stating that all is well in Kashmir, but the whole world is watch the reality on their own this time.


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## Iggy

Roby said:


> Who is this Arun Rajnath anyway? For which Indian newspaper he is working? *I cant find any of his columns in Indian newspapers*.



Are you surprised about it??


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## Devil Soul

seiko said:


> Are you surprised about it??



i'm not after all this & that about FREEDOM OF SPEECH in india


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## EjazR

Any other source for this news? It would be big news in India by now. 

It was teh IB who released the intercepts of Hurriyat (G) activists, but I guess it could be a damage control exercise as well as some people commentedthat even if Pakistan wasinvolved it should not be mentioned as people have legitmate griveances.


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## dabong1

IBRIS said:


> Title of the thread is something that needs more attention than any keyboard warrior opinion of pakistani.



It should be "kashmiri freedom fighters Vs Indian occupation forces" 



IBRIS said:


> I shall enjoy the next pakistani soldier dies by the bullet of TTP now since members here are openly declaring there satisfaction of their hypocrite mindset.



Well if that case then we will do likewise when the maosit and other groups in india kill indian soldiers.



IBRIS said:


> I salute the brave Indian Soldiers who have given there life to protect the integrity of my Nation. At least we don't surrender to rag-tag loosers when we are near death. History have proved how we Indians have shown the entire world how capable we are when we are pitched in battlefields.



 



IBRIS said:


> Some of the members in the recent posts made it clear how much worth the life of terrorist mercenary sponsored by pakistan is. No wonder you can't take Kashmir from us.



It the rag tag indian terrorist running around kashmir that is the problem.......the people are defending there land from an occupation army.



IBRIS said:


> JEO MERAY JAWANO, Our History is full of sacrifices of Brave MEN & WOMEN. No Tom, Dick & harry has the b@!ls to take it from us.



Eeeeh i think you will find that the freedom fighters have the "the b@!ls to take" to take you on and kick you A55 also in the process.




IBRIS said:


> *JAI HIND, JAI JAWAN, JAI KISAN*



FREE KASHMIR

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## Iggy

Devil Soul said:


> i'm not after all this & that about FREEDOM OF SPEECH in india



Dont worry about our freedom of Speech..atleast we dont have to put fake Indian names to spread the news


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## SQ8

Indian members please contradict this report with a neutral source.. or finish ranting like 6 yr old girls.

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## johnny boy

s6demon said:


> Atleast you admit your statement was ridiculous. I stand by what i said, Indian Army has a well documented track record of killing inoocent people and branding then terrorists afterwards. you can just google or youtube first hand accounts.



ha and the pak army has the world record of killing 2.5million innocent bengali muslims!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!AND U CALL US KILLERS???HA .

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## Spring Onion

seiko said:


> Dont worry about our freedom of Speech..atleast we dont have to put fake Indian names to spread the news


*
Fake Indian Names??? But your Indian member Chacha was claiming the reporter an Indian who hates Indian Agencies for harassing him *


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## Spring Onion

santro said:


> Indian members please contradict this report with a neutral source.. or finish ranting like 6 yr old girls.



 santro 6 years old gals are atleast innocent and better than these members in arguments


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## EjazR

*Asia Times Online :: Al-Qaeda aims to cash in on Kashmir*
By Syed Saleem Shahzad

ISLAMABAD - Pakistan-sponsored proxy operations that were largely abandoned several years ago have been revived at both the political level and on the armed insurgency front in Indian-administered Kashmir.

For al-Qaeda, watching from Pakistan's North Waziristan tribal area, this provides an opportunity for which it has waited a long time - to hijack Pakistan's "bleed India" operations for its own cause, that is, to pull India into the region's war theater.

The struggle for the right of self-determination in Indian-administered Kashmir, which died down following Pakistan's crackdown on Kashmiri militant groups under American pressure from 2002 onwards, has flared again.

Over the past four weeks, more than 15 people have died in clashes between the local Muslim Kashmiri population and police and paramilitary soldiers, mostly in Srinagar, the summer capital of the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir. Last week, for the first time ever, the army was sent into Srinagar.

Sources who spoke to Asia Times Online say that two militant organizations - al-Badr led by Bakht Zameen Khan and the Lashkar-e-Taiba, whose resources were largely depleted up until 2008 - are involved in the unrest. They have sent people across the Line of Control that separates the Pakistan-administered and Indian-administered Kashmirs.

This marks the second Kashmiri intifada - the first began in 1989 and resulted in more than a decade of some of the worst violence South Asia has seen and on several occasions brought India and Pakistan to the point of war - fighting did break out briefly at Kargil in 1999.

Speaking to Asia Times Online, a senior Western diplomat commented, "A water dispute is the main bone of contention between the two countries. Although we have found that Pakistan's water problem is the result of internal mismanagement and has nothing to do with Indian intrigues as projected by Pakistan, jihadis are now exploiting the issue for recruitment and wrongfully projecting that if India is not controlled, the whole of Pakistan will be turned into a desert."

The dispute centers on the Neelum River that flows from Indian-administered Kashmir into Pakistan. Under pressure from the US to reduce tensions because their rivalry spills over into Afghanistan and complicates efforts to bring peace there, India and Pakistan are scheduled this week to discuss the appointment of a panel of neutral experts. They will consider India's plans to dam the river for a 330-megawatt hydro-electric power project.

*Al-Qaeda watches on*
By the standards of the long-running conflict in Kashmir, the latest flare-up is relatively low key, involving mostly street protests, in contrast to the bloody militant attacks of previous years.

For al-Qaeda, though, this is a big moment in terms of its Ghazwai-e-Hind, the Prophet Mohammad's promised end-of-time battle for the conquest of India.

Al-Qaeda decided to start its Ghazwa-e-Hind operations by claiming responsibility for an attack on February 13 this year in which a bomb exploded at the German Bakery in the city of Pune, Maharashtra state, killing 17 people and injuring at least 60.

However, at the 11th hour the decision was shelved and responsibility was claimed by a pseudo organization called Laskhar-e-Taiba al-Alami. Later, al-Qaeda leader Mustafa Abu al-Yazid (now killed) announced in a video message that the attack had been carried out by commander Ilyas Kashmiri's 313 Brigade, which is assigned for al-Qaeda's India operations. A few days after the Pune attack, Kashmiri sent an exclusive e-mail message to Asia Times Online warning that more attacks would be carried out in India. (See Al-Qaeda chief delivers a warning February 13, 2010.)

According to well-placed sources in al-Qaeda, al-Qaeda sees the unrest in Kashmir as a "god-gifted" opportunity to steal the Kashmiri insurgency from its Pakistani handlers and use it for its Ghazwa-e-Hind operations. These sources say the next operation will be in the Indian capital New Delhi in October during the Commonwealth Games.

"Al-Qaeda will take responsibility for these attacks and Dr Ayman al-Zawahiri [al-Qaeda's number two] will release a video message on the subject," one source said.

The networks of the Harkat-ul Jihad al-Islami (HuJI - Movement of Islamic Holy War) will provide logistical support. The al-Qaeda-linked HuJI's original mission was to set up Islamic rule in Bangladesh, but its ambitions and geographical spread now cover much of South Asia.

Inside India, according to the sources, the state of Uttar Pradesh will be al-Qaeda's rendezvous point. Here it will work with groups such as breakaway factions of the Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI). SIMI was formed in the state in the late 1970s for the "liberation of India" from Western materialistic cultural influence and to convert the Muslim society to live according to Muslim codes of conduct.

Asia Times Online understands that al-Qaeda's aim is to start a pattern of terror attacks that will initiate a low-intensity insurgency in India's heartlands, including the Kashmir struggle, rather than stand-alone terror attacks.

In the bigger picture, according to the sources, the goal is to sabotage all US efforts to create peace in the region (especially Afghanistan) and draw India and Pakistan into a crisis situation.

_Syed Saleem Shahzad is Asia Times Online's Pakistan Bureau Chief. He can be reached at saleem_shahzad2002@yahoo.com _


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## Iggy

Jana said:


> *
> Fake Indian Names??? But your Indian member Chacha was claiming the reporter an Indian who hates Indian Agencies for harassing him *



You are the one who claimed that he is a reporter from Delhi where as i cant find any reporter named Arun Rajnath other than one in South Asian tribune,which is own by who is well known here..if you think there is a reporter name Arun Rajnath is there ..please show the proof..and also the story of Indian Agencies Harassing Arun Rajnath was also found "surprisingly"  only in a blog written by one Isha Khan ..and reading her blog we can very well understand where she is from 

Isha khan&#8217;s Weblog


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## Iggy

santro said:


> Indian members please contradict this report with a neutral source.. or finish ranting like 6 yr old girls.



Santro we are questioning the authenticity of this reporter and news..not a single news has been in Indian media about it..still Pakistan media got it from Indian Intelligence agencies..that too an Indian reporter which no body has any idea who is that guy ..probably just another person like Christina Palmer or Ajay Mehta ...

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## Capt.Popeye

"Santro we are questioning the authenticity of this reporter and news..not a single news has been in Indian media about it..still Pakistan media got it from Indian Intelligence agencies..that too an Indian reporter which no body has any idea who is that guy ..probably just another person like Christina Palmer or Ajay Mehta ..."

@seiko
Arun Rajnath is a 'distant cousin' of "Amar Singh", get it.

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## chachachoudhary

santro said:


> Indian members please contradict this report with a neutral source.. or finish ranting like 6 yr old girls.



Pakistani members, please use common sense and ask a question to yourself that can indian intelligence agencies share their report with a Pakistani newspaper before sharing it with indian newspaper?


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## chachachoudhary

Jana said:


> *
> Fake Indian Names??? But your Indian member Chacha was claiming the reporter an Indian who hates Indian Agencies for harassing him *



Can you quote my post where I said this?


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## FreekiN

Al Qaeda is like the CIA of the Taliban. It's them who pull off the biggest and cruelest terrorist attacks on international targets.


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## Areesh

chachachoudhary said:


> Pakistani members, please use common sense and ask a question to yourself that can indian intelligence agencies share their report with a Pakistani newspaper before sharing it with indian newspaper?



And the common sense also tells us that no Indian media posted this report because of it's animosity for Pakistan. Indians usually lost their common sense when it comes to Pakistan. We have many threads on this forum which is a proof of it. Well anyways we aren't going to use any common sense we want something as Santro and other senior members have been asking for.

Something contradictory to this report as posted by the The News.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

2.5m????? Maybe in your bollywood movies, but as is the case with most other things revolving around hindustan --therein lies a gross disparity between dreams/imagination and actual reality

I guess the lives of West Pakistanis, and pro-Pakistani Bengali elements in today's Bangla Desh mean nothing to you (I understand ).


the patterns are recurring in occupied Kashmir to this day, and we (and world) are witness to it. 


hindustanys are scared.....i heard that they even cut telephone lines and all communication in Baramulla, occupied Kashmir.


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## xyz

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> hindustanys are scared.....i heard that they even cut telephone lines and all communication in Baramulla, occupied Kashmir.



Pakistanis are scared, they have deployed thousands of troops on their east border with Bharat.

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## Jungibaaz

xyz said:


> Pakistanis are scared, they have deployed thousands of troops on their east border with Bharat.



And you have all your men deployed at the Bangladeshi border?
think a little!


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## hal-fgfa

Jungibaaz said:


> And you have all your men deployed at the Bangladeshi border?
> think a little!



We dnt need Army in eastern border BSF is sufficient there cause they dnt send terrorist in our country 

On the other hand whole world know who is behind terrorism in Kashmir that the reason we need army there


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## xyz

Jungibaaz said:


> And you have all your men deployed at the Bangladeshi border?
> think a little!



its BSF not army 

Think a Little


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## Jungibaaz

xyz said:


> its BSF not army
> 
> Think a Little



point remains if you weren't scared of Pak, would anyone be there?


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## xyz

Jungibaaz said:


> point remains if you weren't scared of Pak, would anyone be there?



Even if there was no Pakistan they would be there!!!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

hal-fgfa said:


> We dnt need Army in eastern border BSF is sufficient there cause they dnt send terrorist in our country
> 
> On the other hand whole world know who is behind terrorism in Kashmir that the reason we need army there



so if you are implying that our army is ''sending terrorists'' to your ''country'' then why arent your soldiers engaging Pakistan Army instead of taking out all their anger and frustration on anti-hindustan Kashmiri stole-pelting youth? 


strange realities


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## amit27

We not fighting Pak army, India is fighting jihadis trying to cross the LOC.


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## Mirza Jatt

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> so if you are implying that our army is ''sending terrorists'' to your ''country'' then why arent your soldiers engaging Pakistan Army



because your soldiers are not crossing over to our land..if they do you will see our soldiers engaging them as well, just as they have been engaging terrorists when they try to intrude.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> so if you are implying that our army is ''sending terrorists'' to your ''country'' then why arent your soldiers engaging Pakistan Army instead of taking out all their anger and frustration on anti-hindustan Kashmiri stole-pelting youth?
> 
> 
> strange realities



first of all its not the army in kashmir....its police force, secondly if they wanted to take out any kind frustration on those hired stone pelters then you would have already seen a different picture altogether and not few deaths accidently. 

On your first point, you will never accept that your army very well knows about the intrusion of those terrorists from your side and also provides them the cover..its impossible for them to cross the border without your army's knowledge and assistance.


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## xyz

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> so if you are implying that our army is ''sending terrorists'' to your ''country'' then why arent your soldiers engaging Pakistan Army instead of taking out all their anger and frustration on anti-hindustan Kashmiri stole-pelting youth?
> 
> 
> strange realities


we dont have army on borders 

secondly, you forgot Kargil i guess.


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## foxbat

Arre yaar.. side karo yeh arguement.. And a high five for Indians

2 LeT militants killed as Army operation enters 3rd day in Poonch - India - The Times of India


JAMMU: Two Lashkar-e-Taiba militants were killed in a fierce encounter with security forces in Beri-Rakh forest in the border district of Poonch as the operation to track down militants in the area entered the third day on Thursday. 

Two bodies of militants and one AK-47 rifle have been retrieved from the encounter site during search operation in Beri Rakh forests in Mendhar border belt of Poonch district since this morning, said a PCR release on Thursday evening. 

The identity of the terrorists has not been established so far, it said. 

The operation is continuing to track down the rest of the terrorists in this dense forest area, the release said. 

The anti-terrorist operation was launched by Army's 37 Rashtriya Rifle (RR) troops on inputs about infiltration of a group of 10 to 12 militants in Mankote forest belt on July 13 around 0900 hours. 

During the operation, an Army major was killed and six other security men, including a colonel, injured in an encounter with suspected Lashkar-e-Taiba terrorists on July 13. 

Major Amit Phunge was killed in the encounter with the militants while Colonel Ajay Katoch of 47 Rashtriya Rifles was injured. 

Meanwhile, police on Thursday recovered some arms and ammunition from Bonjwah-Kither area of Kishtwar district where one district commander of LeT, identified as Isaq Bhat alias Hamza/Ateeq was gunned down by police on Wednesday. 

The recoveries included two AK magzines, 38 rounds of AK, three electronic detonators, 4 normal detonators, one Chinese grenade, three mobile sets, two sim cards and one pouch, the release said.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

resistance and freedom fighting in Kashmir is purely local Kashmiri phenomenon


they dont want to be under hindustany umbrella. It was as obvious THEN as it is now (even more clear now actually, and world media is covering it)


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## xyz

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> resistance and freedom fighting in Kashmir is purely local Kashmiri phenomenon
> 
> 
> they dont want to be under hindustany umbrella. It was as obvious THEN as it is now (even more clear now actually, and world media is covering it)



same goes for Baluchistan!!!
seems they are fed up with Pakistani occupation.


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## foxbat

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> resistance and freedom fighting in Kashmir is purely local Kashmiri phenomenon
> 
> 
> they dont want to be under hindustany umbrella. It was as obvious THEN as it is now (even more clear now actually, and world media is covering it)



Pakistanys cant seem to make up their mind. One of you says that you are sending in expendable mercenaries to attack Indian forces and some of you say its a local phenomenon. 

Anyway what ever it is, its destined to fail.....

Reminds me of a movie Karma (Bollywood). Anupam Kher when slapped says... Is thappad ki goonj tumhe bahut door tak sunayi degi. 

Slightly tangential, but Pakistan Kashmir strategy's echo is now audible in every corner of Pakistan almost on a weekly basis.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

well as i said time and time again, if you can actually provide proof of it -- then i'll accept it. And in fact, I would pop a bottle and nod in approval.

would be a good revenege for funding the band of hindu mukti bahinis in Bangla Desh.  

as for your bollywood --- keep watching the movies and day-dreaming. It's good for you i think. Never bad to day-dream or imagine things.



but please don't give the freedom fighters more credit than they deserve, that isn't right. Actually it's the civilians in Kashmir who rise un-armed against the indian occupation forces which makes the most impact to the news-viewers and spectators

Kashmir is erupting in some of the largest anti-indian protests i have seen in quite some time....those arent mujahideen those are unarmed locals



purely Kashmiri phenomenon, and Pakistan Nation sympathises with them and will support them morally and/or in whatever way we deem fit

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## xyz

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> well as i said time and time again, if you can actually provide proof of it -- then i'll accept it. And in fact, I would pop a bottle and nod in approval.
> 
> would be a good revenege for funding the band of hindu mukti bahinis in Bangla Desh.
> 
> as for your bollywood --- keep watching the movies and day-dreaming. It's good for you i think. Never bad to day-dream or imagine things.
> 
> 
> 
> but please don't give the freedom fighters more credit than they deserve, that isn't right. Actually it's the civilians in Kashmir who rise un-armed against the indian occupation forces which makes the most impact to the news-viewers and spectators
> 
> Kashmir is erupting in some of the largest anti-indian protests i have seen in quite some time....those arent mujahideen those are unarmed locals
> 
> 
> 
> purely Kashmiri phenomenon, and Pakistan Nation sympathises with them and will support them morally and/or in whatever way we deem fit



First give freedom to Azad Kashmir, which is under Pakistan Administration then we will talk further.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

where is the rioting and uprising taking place


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## chachachoudhary

Areesh said:


> I was just answering to chacha that might because of Indian media has not posted this news because of their animosity for Pakistan.




Why BBC, reuters, CNN, Chinese newspapers did not publish it. They also have animosity to Pakistan?

Stop making a fool of yourself.


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## SMC

What kind of childish logic is this? That news must be printed in foreign media (who tend not to have interest in these things) to be true? Coming from an indian though, it's not surprising at all. The News is a very respected and reliable source anyhow - even outside Pakistan.


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## Areesh

@Chacha 

I think the above post answered your common sense in a very suitable manner. It is you here who is making a fool out of himself.


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## Markus

The fault lies with India.

Our government keeps saying that Hurriyat and JuD/LeT/Hizbul have links.

The max that we have done is to out these Hurriyat in house arrest or have jailed them for a few days. 

When their links are so well known then why no further action is being taken. The Hurriyat leaders should be hanged at Lal Chowk in Srinagar in front of world media.

If India is not willing to take strong steps against traitors and terrorists that are operating from Indian soil, they have no right to ask Pakistan to take action against Hafiz Sayed and company.

First eliminate Hurriyat from Indian soil then talk of getting Salauddin/Hafiz and company from Pakistan.


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## xyz

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> where is the rioting and uprising taking place



at NWPF, where Pakistan's total army is involved.


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## EjazR

*Today Omar may ask Army to go*

With the law and order situation under control in the Valley, the Omar Abdullah government is expected to officially ask for derequisitioning of the Army from Srinagar on Friday after eight days of military aiding the civil administration in keeping the violence under check. The state government had called for troops after civil disturbance due to youth deaths in firing by security forces.

Government sources told The Indian Express that the state government has already sent verbal feelers to the Army brass and Defence Ministry indicating that state Chief Secretary S S Kapoor will write a letter to the Centre for the military to go back to barracks. The Army was placed on a standby in the Valley on July 7 after Kapoor under instructions from Chief Minister Omar Abdullah requisitioned troops from the Centre.

Contrary to reports of flag marches in Srinagar, troops had only conducted deterrent movement on the periphery of the states summer capital with one battalion of reserve troops on standby. These troops were earmarked for immediate induction in case violence flared up in the city. This was according to the directions from the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) that met under the chairmanship of the Prime Minister on July 7. 

*At the crucial CCS meeting, Director, Intelligence Bureau, Rajiv Mathur apparently gave a presentation of law and order situation in Kashmir to the apex body with a recommendation that open deployment of Army in the Valley would undo all the work in the past decade due to its larger ramifications. The presentation made it clear that the state government did not have control over the political situation of the Valley and was virtually at loggerheads with the CRPF, whose 153 battalions are at present deployed in Kashmir. The countrys senior most police officer also pointed out that the paramilitary force was adequate in numbers to tackle law and order. *

*This view found resonance with Defence Minister A K Antony, who was opposed to Army deployment for law and order duties. However, since the Chief Minister had personally requested for troop deployment and followed it up with a letter, the CCS gave the go-ahead with a limited mandate of ensuring that rioters from other towns do not start converging on Srinagar.*


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## Areesh

xyz said:


> at NWPF, where Pakistan's total army is involved.



NWFP isn't disputed territory. Hopefully you are mature enough to realize that.


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## chachachoudhary

Areesh said:


> @Chacha
> 
> I think the above post answered your common sense in a very suitable manner. It is you here who is making a fool out of himself.



Really? Then where are you going to get neutral confirmation? Stop crying for neutral contradiction. Admit that the article is crap and nothing else as nobody else in the world other than a shadowy news group with shadowy reporters in Pakistan has published it.

Pathetic.


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## chachachoudhary

Markus said:


> The fault lies with India.
> 
> Our government keeps saying that Hurriyat and JuD/LeT/Hizbul have links.
> 
> The max that we have done is to out these Hurriyat in house arrest or have jailed them for a few days.
> 
> When their links are so well known then why no further action is being taken. The Hurriyat leaders should be hanged at Lal Chowk in Srinagar in front of world media.
> 
> If India is not willing to take strong steps against traitors and terrorists that are operating from Indian soil, they have no right to ask Pakistan to take action against Hafiz Sayed and company.
> 
> First eliminate Hurriyat from Indian soil then talk of getting Salauddin/Hafiz and company from Pakistan.



To do this, we need firm leadership with a vision. Do you think present leadership with spine of a banana is going to do that. For them vote bank is more important than national interest.


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## fawwaxs

*Strict curfew re-imposed in Kashmir *







SRINAGAR: Indian security forces reinforced a strict curfew in Srinagar on Friday after their decision to briefly relax restrictions for the first time in five days led to huge street protests.

The clampdown was briefly lifted on Thursday and thousands took to the streets of Srinagar to denounce the Indian security forces who have killed 15 Kashmiris in protests over the last month.

Police vehicles fitted with loud-hailers announced late Thursday the re-imposition of the curfew, warning residents not to venture out of their homes.

The Muslim-majority Himalayan region has been wracked by demonstrations since June 11 when security forces were accused of killing a 17-year-old.

As violence spread, local authorities slapped rigid curfews on most of the region, arrested activists and ordered the army onto the streets of Srinagar.

Kashmir is divided between India and Pakistan, which administer it jointly but claim it in full.

An anti-India insurgency in the part ruled by New Delhi has claimed an estimated 47,000 lives.


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## EjazR

*Kashmir - Unending conflict, What is the way out*
By: Asghar Ali Engineer
16-Jul-2010
Mumbai: The conflict in Kashmir seems to be unending and the way it is being handled by our armed forces, especially the CRPF is further aggravating it. Unfortunately still it is being addressed primarily as a law and order problem and the aspirations of people and their problems hardly matter. Our armed forces go on violating human rights and they know only to kill. This way instead of solving the problem, we will reduce Kashmir to a vast cemetery. More and more young protestors are dying and death hardly dissuades these young protestors from demonstrating.

It is not that people of Kashmir are really anti-India and want to opt for Pakistan. The recent U.K. think tank survey also established that not more than 4 per cent Kashmiri want to align with Pakistan. They have their own aspirations and problems which must be addressed which are not being addressed and, to the contrary, bullets are fired at them. Now at the all party meeting it was decided that lethal weapons will not be used and instead pepper gun will be used which does not kill but produces, psychological impact similar to real bullets.

Should it have taken so much time to take this decision after killing 15 young people and unleashing angry protests? Even CRPF has suffered great casualties, more than 273 Jawans have been injured in last one month and 1980 over one year. Could this decision not been taken earlier to save young lives and CRPF Jawans from injuries? Or was this technology of pepper gun was invented only before the all Party meeting. Do we have to kill so many innocent civilians before using appropriate technology? Had this decision taken in time it would have saved several lives and would not have pushed the valley on brink of such serious crisis.

I was in Kashmir in June for a workshop on peace and conflict resolution and talked to several people as to what they think could be the solution across cross section of people, including intelligentsia, activists and even common people in the bazaar. One thing which emerges is that Omar Abdullah has failed to deliver on every front and sentiments are overwhelmingly in favour of Mufti Saeed.

Mufti is considered as more mature and is thought to be talking frankly to the Centre and could handle Kashmir problem more satisfactorily. Omar Abdullah has lost grip over the situation and moreover lacks courage to talk frankly with the Centre. This comes out very strongly across the cross section of people I talked to. Also, the separatist sentiments are not as strong as it is thought to be from outside. They are more angry at the mess in which Kashmir finds itself today.

The youth is interested in employment and betterment of economic situation. *Most of the young people I met bitterly complain about lack of economic opportunities in the valley. Even highly qualified persons do not find satisfactory jobs. They are either unemployed or underemployed. The separatists exploit this anger and frustration. However, neither the state government nor the central one is serious about it and keep on condemning separatists for the situation.*

Also, in case of Kashmir there is serious political dimension that is of our Constitutional commitment to ensure autonomy and Nehru-Abdullah pact of 1953 further reinforced it but under political pressure from rightwing elements this promise of full autonomy to Kashmir was never fulfilled. Again after militancy movement in Kashmir during late eighties and nineties the then Prime Minister Mr. Narsimha Rao promised Faruq Abdullah whom I had met during my visit to valley in late nineties that he would grant autonomy to Kashmir and when Abdullah asked him how much, he told him sky is the limit. These words ring in my year even today.

However, nothing happened and then the BJP led Government came to power whose agenda was to remove article 370 from the Constitution itself instead of giving even a small element of autonomy to the people of Kashmir. Also, the way we held elections since independence never inspired confidence among the people of Kashmir. In fact the militancy in Kashmir began after 1988 elections were rigged and Salahuddein, a school teacher and now head of Hizbul Mujadidin based in *** was declared defeated though, most of the Kashmiris think, he had won.

It was only in 2004 that for the first time fair elections were held and when *I visited the valley I found new confidence among a section of Kashmiri people and some of them told me that if fair elections are held in future also, things will qualitatively change in Kashmir and people of Kashmir will align with India. *The elections in 2009 too were more or less fair but unfortunately Omar Abdullah does not seem to be in control.

*After long years of militancy and violence people of Kashmir have realized one thing, and I am saying this after interacting with large number of people in the valley that violence does not pay and that peaceful solution is the only way out. But they want peaceful solution with honour and dignity and one which addresses host of their problems one of which is Kashmiriyat, their regional autonomy and pride in their culture and institutions.*

We do have problem with Pakistan and we do not want to inter-nationalise the Kashmir problem and we do not want to go for plebiscite. All this is fine but what is coming in the way of our winning the hearts and soul of Kashmiri people. The way our forces indulge in fake encounters and seriously violate human rights is not the way to win their hearts and souls. With such actions we are greatly alienating them.

When Prime Minister Manmohan Singh had visited the valley in August 2006 for a round table conference with Kashmiri leaders he had given a statement that there will be zero tolerance for violations of human rights and there were again fake encounters in the valley. Immediately thereafter I conducted a peace workshop and some participants taunted is this the zero intolerance to violations of human rights?

Unfortunately if anything there is worsening rather than improvement in the situation. Day by day human rights violations are increasing. Few months ago two young women were raped and their bodies were fished out of water and till today no culprit has been arrested. Even CBI did not hold proper inquiry, it is alleged and it is suspected that military and police officials are involved.

Again my interaction with people in the valley show that except a small section of Kashmiris, as also brought out in the survey by the U.K. think tank, no one is for joining Pakistan. All they want is peace and honourable existence. The Government of India and the state government have to do everything possible to ensure this. People feel that Mufti had succeeded in wresting some concessions from the Centre which Omar Abdullah is unable to do either because of his inexperience or lack of courage. Whatever the reason, opinion is swinging in favour of Mufti.

Even Ghulam Nabi Azad is rated as better Chief Minister. *The Government of India, in order to stop bloodshed will have to show political courage and determination to take bold steps and strictly discipline the army and not tolerate these violations for fear of demoralizing it. Such an approach will play only in the hands of the terrorists and keep on aggravating the situation.*

*Fake encounters have absolutely no place in democracy and it is nothing but serious failure of governance if innocent citizens are killed by the police or army. Such unscrupulous officers must be rigorously punished. Such killings can lead to serious trouble even where there is no separatist or terrorist movements, much less in sensitive areas like Kashmir where issues of regional culture and identity are politically extra-sensitive.*

Regional autonomy in many countries is a serious problem whether other countries are involved or not. For example, the question of Basque nationality in Spain is a serious question and only the other day the Basque nationalists organized a demonstration with 2.5 million people to press for their demand. Basque nationalists also resorted to violence for long and exploded bombs. However, they too realized that violence will not take them too far.

We have to sort out Kashmir problem on two fronts, our own internal front and Pakistan front. Here I do not want to comment as far as Pakistan front is concerned. Here my main concern is our own internal front and ensuring peace in the valley and people of Kashmir, in my opinion, are ready for non-violent and honourable peace. Firstly, development will play very important role. The youth must be won over through ensuring employment. Faisal Shahs case is an important example. All Kashmiris felt proud that one of their own has been selected and stood first in IAS examination. Indian Muslims too felt very proud and organized series of receptions for him throughout India.

*Thus to solve Kashmir problem internally what is needed is a measure of negotiated autonomy, economic development, greater recruitment of Kashmiri youth in and outside Kashmir including Central Government jobs which will give them greater sense of belonging to India, expeditious development of Railway network and ensuring non-violation of human rights and minimizing presence of armed forces except in border areas can lead to internal peace. *


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## Areesh

chachachoudhary said:


> Really? Then where are you going to get neutral confirmation? Stop crying for neutral contradiction. Admit that the article is crap and nothing else as nobody else in the world other than a shadowy news group with shadowy reporters in Pakistan has published it.
> 
> Pathetic.



Rant of a 6 year old girl again. Will you post something constructive on this thread or keep asking, ranting and crying. We gave you a credible source now it is up to you to accept it or deny it with some proof. We have had enough of your immature rants. Neither the source nor the report is crap, if someone is crap it is *you*.


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## amit27

NO Indian PM or Indian party can give Kashmir to Pakistan thats the ground reality the only solution is to reduce army presence and provide Kashmiris with jobs so they have a hope for future.


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## hal-fgfa

amit27 said:


> NO Indian PM or Indian party can give Kashmir to Pakistan thats the ground reality the only solution is to reduce army presence and provide Kashmiris with jobs so they have a hope for future.



First off all Army not deployed in cities .. Army is for Border safety there . In cities Local police and CRPF working not Army. 

India cant reduce Army presence there you know why .


----------



## hal-fgfa

Areesh said:


> Rant of a 6 year old girl again. Will you post something constructive on this thread or keep asking, ranting and crying. We gave you a credible source now it is up to you to accept it or deny it with some proof. We have had enough of your immature rants. Neither the source nor the report is crap, if someone is crap it is *you*.



A Pakistani source is creatable ??? joking na


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## amit27

hal-fgfa said:


> First off all Army not deployed in cities .. Army is for Border safety there . In cities Local police and CRPF working not Army.
> 
> India cant reduce Army presence there you know why .




Yes it is tense at the moment but i meant in long term for Kashmir to be stable and secure Indian goverment must provide jobs to these youths so they dont have time to play with stones all days


----------



## Silver-Scorpion

Indian Jatt said:


> yes, they have the right and they are getting it...atleast more than your side...and about carrer opportunity..sorry..you know nothing...they have more brighter future than in your side..cause we have work for them..job opportunities..and we know where you stand..
> 
> a very small example....
> a kashmiri in Indian administration...
> 
> Srinagar doc becomes first Kashmiri to top IAS - dnaindia.com
> 
> 
> 
> are you crazy ?? do you even know at what positions muslims are in India ?? lol..they have been at postion,which any muslim in the world would envy..sorry no examples here...serach it..or see some bollywood movies or the list of Indian ministers or even presidents..
> 
> 
> 
> fortunately..you are wrong my friend....they are staying with us and they are safe with us...the procession that you aretalking about,should be 1000 times bigger to say that every kashmiri wants India to go...BTW..just look at your last sentence..that says it all..see ya.



This is off topic but so was this post quoted above. I just wanted to say that the link you provided about this Kashmiri guy, a doctor and the first ever Kashmiri who topped the civil service exam in India had his father assassinated(this is written in the article for which the link is provided above). I don't know about you but if losing your father is the cost of succeeding in Indian occupied Kashmir then I am glad I do not live there. Also notice how he is the first guy to top the civil service exam and this article was posted in May, 2010. If one Kashmiri guy managed to get a good job and a good future in the 63 years of Indian occupation, that's not saying much about equality instead it makes me think otherwise.

Also your opinion about Muslims having positions in India that others would "envy" for which you avoided providing examples, is also not true. Despite being the largest minority in India, Muslims are rather oppressed. Here is an example and you can see hundreds more if you search for it. 

Andrew Buncombe's Asia Diary - Do Muslims get a fair deal in India?


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## dabong1

RobbieS said:


> I heard the same from my Kashmiri classmates in Delhi. They dont consider Mirpuris and other folks beyond the LOC as Kashmiris *as they hardly speak the language.* No offense but in fact they were joking about about how UK based Mirpuris proudly call themselves Kashmiris but are hardly so. Could be just a couple of folks' opinion but thats what they told me.





k_n said:


> Mirpuris and Punchhis are what they are i.e Mirpuri and Punchhi NOT KASHMIRI .
> *The language* , food , dress all are different , DIFFERENT .
> So dont claim what is not your heritage . Leave it for the Kashmris of the valley and Doda Kishtwar .


By Cyril Almeida Friday, 09 Jul, 2010

&#8220;As far as Delhi is concerned, Omar&#8217;s a great guy. He is married to a sardarni, his mother is British. He represents what Delhi would like a Muslim leader to be,&#8221; Shamim added. 
&#8220;But religious identity matters in the Valley. *He can&#8217;t even speak the language*.&#8221;
http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/64670-indian-army-marches-kashmir-cursh-protests-12.html

So your main man in kashmir cant speak the language......is he still a kashmiri or shall we throw him out of the fold?


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## Markus

chachachoudhary said:


> To do this, we need firm leadership with a vision. Do you think present leadership with spine of a banana is going to do that. For them vote bank is more important than national interest.



No, not only the current leadership but no leadership till date has had the guts to do this.

And thats why I mentioned that if India cannot eliminate Hurriyat which is operating from Indian soil then what right does it have to ask Pakistan to take action against its own people.


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## Ganga

I have a question and it is very basic

Does Pakistan consider J&K(the entire state) as a disputed territory or is it only Kashmir? 

If the first case is true then why Jammu?


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## chachachoudhary

Areesh said:


> Rant of a 6 year old girl again. Will you post something constructive on this thread or keep asking, ranting and crying. We gave you a credible source now it is up to you to accept it or deny it with some proof. We have had enough of your immature rants. Neither the source nor the report is crap, if someone is crap it is *you*.



If you do not have the guts to answer the questions, you should not enter such arguments in the first place. Talking round and round does not make you smarter buddy. Go play outside.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

xyz said:


> at NWPF, where Pakistan's total army is involved.



keep telling yourself that 







p.s. Pakistan flag looks good waving with honour in Sri Nagar, locals always celebrate 14 August


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## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> p.s. Pakistan flag looks good waving with honour in Sri Nagar, locals always celebrate 14 August



and one by one thoes "locals" are being sent to meet their maker..

and also the same Pakistan flag seems to be burning prettily wen lit up by the Baluchis

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## KS

santro said:


> Indian members please contradict this report with a neutral source.. or finish ranting like 6 yr old girls.



How can u be so hypocritical..?

U guys give a BS report from a Pakistani source and say we should contradict that by giving a neutral source.

Good ..err.. sorry excellent logic...


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## mjnaushad

Karthic Sri said:


> and one by one thoes "locals" are being sent to meet their maker..
> 
> and also the same Pakistan flag seems to be burning prettily wen lit up by the Baluchis


Is that the best you can come up with.....

When nothing left go to baluchistan???


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Karthic Sri said:


> and one by one thoes "locals" are being sent to meet their maker..
> 
> and also the same Pakistan flag seems to be burning prettily wen lit up by the Baluchis



Dont disrespect all Balouch people u disgusting troll...
Ur ur bottom is lit by some simple realistic arguements ur resort to B.S myths ur spoon feed by ur media.

Brahamdagh n some fags dont portray the balouch people.

The Cresent looks awesome beautiful when hoisted in ASSAM n Kashmir......

Mods kindly ban disgusting trolls filled with hatred n crap.


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## RollingStones

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> so if you are implying that our army is ''sending terrorists'' to your ''country'' then why arent your soldiers engaging Pakistan Army instead of taking out all their anger and frustration on anti-hindustan Kashmiri stole-pelting youth?
> 
> 
> strange realities



In an article I read, I believe the Indian Army shells Neelum valley in Pakistan Kashmir regularly. The article even said that the Neelum valley residents are dead against pakistan using its people as facilitators of cross border movement. So, the Indian Army apparently does cause damages but Pakistan does not advertise that as its position has always been that it can inflict much damage on India without taking too much damage. To me, the pakistani nation and populace is extremely subjugated due to a variety of reasons and have no real way of asking questions and getting answers. In both india and Pakistan, it is extremely hard for people to hold their governments to account. So, we cant really tell who in actuality suffered the most damage here.


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## Areesh

chachachoudhary said:


> If you do not have the guts to answer the questions, you should not enter such arguments in the first place. Talking round and round does not make you smarter buddy. Go play outside.



Guts or no guts. We have provided what we wanted to and if you only have your cries or rants in it's response than it is your issue not ours. Post something which many membrs have been asking from you. Prove yourself worthy. The whole forum is sick of your childish rants.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Karthic Sri said:


> and one by one thoes "locals" are being sent to meet their maker..



exactly 

and then what happens? You create 150 new enemies. Not so ''integral'' part of your hindustan anymore eyy?




> and also the same Pakistan flag seems to be burning prettily wen lit up by the Baluchis



hahaha something about a few misguided Baluchis in a Kashmir thread? You need to work on your ''spin'' kiddo.













p.s. i heard that some locals hang Pakistan flag in Deccan Hyderabad too 

you gotta admit, it is a nice flag to look at


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## amit27

http://www.panunkashmir.org/


A HOMELAND FOR KASHMIRI PANDITS


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## Abu Zolfiqar

for economic reasons, most of those hindu ''pundits'' left on their own free will


indian will try to brainwash and say they were systematically wiped out by Islamists which is total bull-crap. Never take what the enemy says seriously.


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## amit27

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> for economic reasons, most of those hindu ''pundits'' left on their own free will
> 
> 
> indian will try to brainwash and say they were systematically wiped out by Islamists which is total bull-crap. Never take what the enemy says seriously.





You talking out your backside? like u know about the Kashmiri pandits have u ever spoken to one?

---------- Post added at 08:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 PM ----------


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## amit27

Listen from a Kashmir pandit - video is from al jiz arab channel


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## Abu Zolfiqar

i dont need to....because im looking to today, not yester-century.

Kashmiris dont like indian occupational forces' presence and its become so obvious as of late


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## Agni 5

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> exactly
> 
> and then what happens? You create 150 new enemies. Not so ''integral'' part of your hindustan anymore eyy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hahaha something about a few misguided Baluchis in a Kashmir thread? You need to work on your ''spin'' kiddo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> p.s. i heard that some locals hang Pakistan flag in Deccan Hyderabad too
> 
> you gotta admit, it is a nice flag to look at




Please take them to Pakistan. We don't need them.


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## Awesome

The Associated Press: Protesters clash with forces in Indian Kashmir

SRINAGAR, India  Hundreds of anti-India protesters clashed with police and paramilitary soldiers after Friday prayers despite a rigid curfew being reimposed in most of Kashmir following weeks of unrest that has killed 15 people.
People were not allowed to attend prayers at Srinagar's main Jamia mosque for a third successive Friday, but authorities did not stop residents from attending prayers at smaller local mosques in the disputed Himalayan region's main city.
People who attended Friday prayers at mosques joined anti-India protests afterward. Hundreds of protesters threw rocks at police and paramilitary soldiers who then fired tear gas to quell the protests, a police officer said on condition of anonymity as he was not authorized to talk to reporters.
Clashes also broke out Friday in Anantnag, Kupwara and Baramulla towns where government forces fired tear gas to disperse the rock-throwing protesters, police said.
No injuries were immediately reported.
The mostly Muslim region, where resistance to rule by predominantly Hindu India is strong, has been under a rolling curfew for the past three weeks after anti-India street protests and clashes surged.
The tension in the region  divided between India and Pakistan and claimed by both  is reminiscent of the late 1980s, when protests against New Delhi's rule sparked an armed conflict that has killed more than 68,000 people, mostly civilians.
Separatist politicians and militants want to carve out a separate homeland or merge with Pakistan.
On Friday, thousands of police and paramilitary soldiers  dressed in riot gear and armed with assault rifles  patrolled Srinagar, the main city in the Indian-held Kashmir. They asked people to stay at home, said Javaid Ahmed, a local resident.
The government decision followed a call for protests by the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, the region's main grouping of separatist parties. An earlier curfew had been eased last weekend so that residents could celebrate a Muslim festival.
But on Thursday, the unrest picked up again, when thousands of people held streets protests chanting "We want freedom" and "Go India, go back" in Srinagar.
Clashes erupted as government forces fired tear gas to disperse rock-throwing protesters in Srinagar and some other towns, injuring 16 protesters and 13 troops, the officer said.
On Friday, shops, schools and government offices were closed and public buses stayed off the roads in the region.

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## Mahdi

Agni 5 said:


> Please take them to Pakistan. We don't need them.



how can you say that.....
Thats the reosons why kashmiris hates us....


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## Mahdi

army should leave Kashmir......


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## amit27

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i dont need to....because im looking to today, not yester-century.
> 
> Kashmiris dont like indian occupational forces' presence and its become so obvious as of late



yes they dont like but they neither like pakistan too and kashmiri pandits want their own land too called panum kashmir.


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## SaifullahK

Kashmiris are unfortunately rather fickle.

Two years back also, there was tremendous enthusiasm in the protests - however when the leaders asked the people to boycott the election, most of the people did not listen.

We need to be more serious in enforcing election boycotts.


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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> I think India can handle militants in today's world since there is this perception that a militant fighting for a cause has to be a terrorist and a government killing that militant is on the side of the good.
> 
> However what it can't handle is a whole bunch of people coming out in front of the media and denouncing India. India goes around stating that all is well in Kashmir, but the whole world is watch the reality on their own this time.



btw, last few years, there has been more rioting in Karachi than in J&K..


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## JonAsad

karan.1970 said:


> btw, last few years, there has been more rioting in Karachi than in J&K..



So whats the point?

There was a lot of protest inside india about oil price hike, can we put it in the same context aswell?


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## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i dont need to....because im looking to today, not yester-century.
> 
> Kashmiris dont like indian occupational forces' presence and its become so obvious as of late



Thanks for not looking into yester-century.....BTW the issue of plebiscite also doesnt need to be looked at as it belongs to the yester-millenium.

Be content with wat u have...and dont loose another half of ur country.




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> and then what happens? You create 150 new enemies. Not so ''integral'' part of your hindustan anymore eyy?



They too will be sent...dont worry..we r a billion to their 3 million...numbers on our side.
And if the situation becomes utterly desperate..then definitely article 370 will go away and in the next few months valley will be having a Hindu majority...
So no worries.

BTW by integral i meant the Land.....its up to the Kasmiris to decide wether they r Indians or not...I give two hoots to them.


Abu Zolfiqar said:


> hahaha something about a few misguided Baluchis in a Kashmir thread? You need to work on your ''spin'' kiddo.



Please worry abt ur "misguided Baluchis" rather than worrying abt a few "misguided Kashmiris".

U see there are misguided ppl on both sides...



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> p.s. i heard that some locals hang Pakistan flag in Deccan Hyderabad too



Any source..? If its Moin Ansari link as u have given below..then pls dont bother..


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## ice_man

washingtonpost.com
*
In Kashmir, stone throwers face off with Indian security forces*

SRINAGAR, INDIAN-ADMINISTERED KASHMIR -- One minute, a shaggy-haired 21-year-old is on the Internet, mixing brooding rock music with video footage of young Kashmiris protesting Indian control of this disputed Himalayan region. The next, he's out on the streets wielding a more traditional weapon: the stone.

THIS STORY
A message in a hail of stones
Audio: Kashmir's 'stone war' fueled by dissent
The latest outbreak of dissent here, dubbed "Kashmir's stone war," marks a shift in the mostly Muslim region's long-running struggle for autonomy. In a post-9/11, globalized world, Pakistan-backed separatists no longer roam the streets of this summer capital with guns. Instead, the heirs to the conflict are styling their discontent after cellphone images of the Palestinian uprising and its stone-throwing youths.

"If we take up arms, the world will call us terrorists. Stone pelting is the only way to fight for our freedom," said Sajid Shah, a.k.a. Lion of Allah, who was editing his videos in hiding Wednesday. "It makes India think. It makes the world think: What's happening in Kashmir? We will get our freedom with the stone."

In the past few weeks, the protests have grown deadly, with at least 15 young people killed when Indian security forces fired into crowds of stone throwers. The new tactic -- which India's Central Reserve Police Force chief, N.K. Tripati, has described as "gunless terrorism" -- is testing India's ability to manage dissent in the region and to protect its image as an aspiring superpower that hopes for a seat on the U.N. Security Council. Many Indians have said that the security forces should find safer methods of controlling teenagers who pelt them with stones.

"Indian forces were caught with their pants down by these stone throwers," said Ajay Sahni, executive director of New Delhi's Institute for Conflict Management. "The killings were pure incompetence. We had all the intelligence that this was being planned. We heard the chatter over the Internet and phones. Despite this, there wasn't an effective response, only a lethal one."

Not all of the victims were demonstrators. Some, like shawl embroiderer Fancy Jan, 25, were caught in crossfire. A stray bullet killed Jan when she was hanging a curtain in her home to block the tear gas. In addition, hundreds of Indian paramilitary troops and Kashmiri police officers have been injured, some with bloody gashes to their foreheads.

Organizing by texts

The cycle of the hurled stone and the bullet fired back grew so deadly that Omar Abdullah, chief minister of the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir, called last week for the Indian army to be deployed for the first time in more than a decade to assist state police and paramilitary forces. Curfews were imposed. The state even blocked text messages, which were used to organize the stone-throwing.

"For over 20 years, the security forces were conditioned to believe the biggest challenge was militancy," Abdullah said Wednesday. "Now it's youngsters hurling stones that whiz at them at 40 miles an hour. Obviously, the response has to be different."

Many Kashmiris say that Abdullah, India's youngest chief minister, forfeited popular support when he called in the Indian army to quell the protests.

Abdullah said he had no choice. "I sleep well at night," he said. "I would have rather called in the army than lost one more child."



Abdullah said his office is auditing the security forces' equipment and training them to deal with stone-pelting teenagers using more-advanced crowd-control techniques, such as sonic waves or stink bombs. Critics say he made similar promises last year but did not follow through.

"Just having pepper spray or protective gear for forces could have saved lives," said Praveen Swami, an expert on Kashmir who writes a column for the Hindu, a newspaper. "The real issue is the weakness of India's capabilities to handle law-and-order situations."
*

the most important aspect here is that WASHIGNTON POST NOW CALLED IT INDIAN ADMINISTERED KASHMIR NOT JAMMU-KASHMIR!!*


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## Awesome

karan.1970 said:


> btw, last few years, there has been more rioting in Karachi than in J&K..


That's a strawman, trying to derail threads now are we? 

Times of India, piece, you got to learn to filter out the obvious Indian bias about portraying the protesters as the villains here. But its obvious that the Indians are waking up to the futility of trying to control this revolt and will ultimately succumb the power of the people!

*Youths enforce shutdown, streets deserted again in Kashmir - India - The Times of India*

SRINAGAR: Streets wore a deserted look in Kashmir again with youths enforcing shutdown at many places as six people were injured in a clash between stone-pelters and police in the Valley on Saturday. 

As the clock struck 2 pm, youths hit the roads forcing closure of businesses and shops and within minutes the markets wore a deserted look. 

In some areas in Srinagar, shopkeepers who offered resistance were greeted with stones, official sources said. Earlier, schools and business establishments reopened in the morning as separatists asked people to resume their normal activities till 2 pm. 

However, in Pulwama the markets opened for an hour with youths descending on the roads and hurling stones to enforce a shutdown, the sources said. 

In Baramulla, 55-km from here, six people, including an assistant sub-inspector of police, were injured in a clash between stone-hurlers and police. 

The clash ensued when police chased away some youths enforcing the strike, the sources said adding stones were also hurled at shops and passing vehicles in some areas in the city but no one was hurt. 

The situation in the valley became tense on June 11 when a teenager was killed after he was allegedly hit by a teargas shell at Gani Stadium near Rajourikadal. 

The situation worsened on June 26 and the authorities clamped curfew and promulgated prohibitory orders to foil a march, called by the separatists, to Sopore. 

As the situation deteriorated further in the wake of killing of three persons in Batmaloo area in Srinagar, army was deployed. 

On Friday, the authorities slapped curfew on several towns to thwart separatists' march to Batmaloo. People had also staged protests across the Valley.


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## Awesome

*Colonel, two majors among 11 chargesheeted in Kupwara 'fake encounter' case - India - The Times of India*

First sign of positivity from India, justice must be swift, this shouldn't be dragged on in the hopes that eventually people will forget about these 11.

More of the IA should be brought under the scrutiny of fake encounters. I propose that much like terrorism courts, India should set up Kashmir abuses courts and take responsibility for what it's soldiers have done to Kashmir.

Oh and Omar Abdullah must be charged as well. No justice in punishing the grunts, get rid of the boss.



> SRINAGAR: An Army Colonel and two Majors were among 11 people chargesheeted by Jammu and Kashmir Police in connection with the alleged fake encounter in which three youths were killed in the frontier district of Kupwara in April this year.
> 
> The charegsheet has named Col D K Pathania, Maj Maurya, Major Upinder, Subedar Satbir, Hawaldar Bir Singh, Sepoys Chandra Bhan, Nagendra Singh and Narendra Singh and Abbas Hussain Shah of the Territorial Army (TA) besides two civilians Basharat Lone and Abdul Hamid Bhat.
> 
> The chargesheet was filed on Thursday before a designated court in Sopore which issued summons to the Army officials to be present on the next date of hearing of the case on July 29.
> 
> All of them were charged under sections 302 (murder), 364(abduction), 120-B (criminal conspiracy) and 34 (common intent) of the Ranbir Penal Code (RPC) for allegedly conspiring and kidnapping three youths from Sopore on the pretext of giving them jobs and later killing them in the higher reaches of Kupwara claiming they were terrorists.
> 
> The Army was sent three reminders by the police for handing over the custody of the army officials for their custodial interrogation as they claimed there was enough evidence to suggest their involvement in the killing of Muhammad Shafi, Shehzad Ahmed and Riyaz Ahmed who were gunned down on the night of April 29.
> 
> The Colonel was relieved of the command and Major Upinder suspended ahead of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's visit to the Valley on June seven.
> 
> Army officials had attempted to invoke the Armed Forces Special Powers Act under which no official is to be handed over to the civilian administration. However, the state government argued in its chargesheet that since there was criminal intent, police could act against them.
> 
> The police have recorded the statements of various people, including the driver of the vehicle in which the three youths were taken from their native village of Nadihal in Baramulla district before being allegedly gunned down.
> 
> The police had arrested three persons Abbas Shah  the territorial army jawan, Basharat Lone and Abdul Hamid Bhat  for allegedly luring the three youths to the border and staging a fake encounter in Machil sector of north Kashmir.
> 
> The bodies were exhumed and a post-mortem was done by the state government. The police had registered a missing report on April 27 in this regard, which was later converted into a kidnapping case.
> 
> Chief Minister Omar Abdullah had asked the Commander of 15 Corps Lt Gen N C Marwah to cooperate in the probe being carried out by the police.

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## Icarus

It's a good step but more confidence building steps are necessary to help fill the trust deficit between GoI and the average Kashmiri, the sooner that is done, the sooner we can move towards a peaceful end to the Kashmir issue.


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## civfanatic

Asim Aquil said:


> Kashmiris will not stop this time around!
> 
> I always knew Mirwaiz had it in him to consolidate the protest.



Asim Bhai though Mirwaiz is One of biggest sepratist leaders in Kashmir It is the octogenarian Syed Ali shah Geelani who has worked hard to prepare people for this struggle . Just to add a lil bit of local prespective . I hope you wont mind


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## EjazR

Its not the first time majors and other security officials have been punished or chargesheeted for HR violations. But thereis also no denying that many do go unpunished. 

Infact, the reality is compared to some parts like Manipur andNagaland, the Kashmir HR situation is much better because there is always a spotlight on it. 

The Machil encounter was a very clear case of criminal intent and conspiracy unlike say firings during riots. AFSPA only protects against civilians killed in crossfire for example when targeting militants, not this. But Defence ministry has to be 100&#37; behind this for it to take the logical conclusion. Even then Justice is a slow process. It took one year to convict Kasab even though all the evidence was open to the public.

There is also another recent case in Anantnag where 3 youths were killed by the local police which also seems to be a cold blooded murder and mostlikely some serious charges will put on that as well.


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## Agni 5

Stone pelting is last resort. 

India will soon match stones with bullet and things will settle for ever. The time is nearing. If pakistan is concerned about kasmir people. Please extend open offer and take them. We don't need brainwashed and clueless people in India. It is lag in our development.


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## EjazR

*Life returns to normalcy in Valley but only for hours - Hindustan Times*

Life in Kashmir Valley on Saturday returned to normal with schools and business establishments reopening and vehicles back on the roads for several hours after 21 days of strike but the relief was short-lived as separatists again enforced shutdown and clashed with police. Business markets, educational institutions and
private offices reopened and transport was plied on the roads across the Valley till 2pm. Traffic jams were witnessed on many roads in view of the heavy rush of people as curbs of curfew and prohibitory order were gone.

However, as the clock struck 2 in the afternoon, streets wore a deserted look again with youths enforcing shutdown at many places and clashing with police, leaving six persons injured.

*Youths forced the closure of businesses and shops and within minutes the markets wore a deserted look. In some areas in Srinagar, shopkeepers, who offered resistance, were attacked with stones, official sources said.*

In Baramulla, 55km from here, six people, including an Assistant Sub-Inspector of Police, were injured in a clash between stone-hurlers and police.

*The clash erupted when police chased away some youths enforcing the strike, the sources said adding stones were also hurled at shops and vehicles in some areas in the city but no one was hurt.*

---------------------

Enforcing strikes when the people don't want to is totally uncalled for. This is certainly to landyou in jail.

The situation in the valley became tense on June 11 when a teenager was killed after he was allegedly hit by a teargas shell at Gani Stadium near Rajourikadal.

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## EjazR

According to UN resolutions the entire J&K state is disputed territories, this includes J&K state of India , Gilgit Baltistan and Pakistani Kashmir as well as Aksai Chin and Shaksam valley under Chinese control.

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## EjazR

*www.outlookindia.com | ?I?m Here. I Haven?t Run Away. I?m Ready To Admit Mistakes?*

Full text of the interview, excerpts from which appear in print:

*How would you explain this explosion of rage in the valley?*

It&#8217;s not quite an explosion of rage. At this point I would call it a simmering anger. It did explode some days ago, the mood was very raw but we were able to contain it. The turning point was the death of this young woman, Fancy, in Srinagar (On July 6) She was leaning out of her window, watching the protests in the streets. The police fired in the air and she took one of the shots. There&#8217;s an emotional reaction to the death of a lady that doesn&#8217;t happen when it is men involved.

We have reached the point where Kashmir is permanently simmering -- and it exploded in 2008 when things were worse and hopefully we won&#8217;t get there. Since then, there are ups and downs. Things became quiet for the elections, then there was simmering anger against Shopian, then the spate of deaths we have had in dealing with law and order disturbances. Obviously, that has had an effect on people&#8217;s psyche. I believe even the Macchil fake encounter by a person from the army has had a deep impact. Three people are lured by promise of jobs by a person who was financially rewarded. Then these people are projected as militants and killed. All of this came together to create what you would call a perfect storm, I think, and we have been dealing with such a storm.

*The FIRs have not been lodged in many of these cases of civilian deaths. That only adds to public anger.*

We are aware of this and recognize now that the wording of the FIR has a bearing on the people&#8217;s reaction. And when a death, by all accounts, has taken place because of police firing and the FIR says "unidentified men" then that is going to cause more problems. In the case of the J&K police, I have told the DG that we have to be more sensitive in the wording of the FIR. The FIR is only a first information report. It is not a chargesheet, so I don&#8217;t know why we should be sensitive about what goes into an FIR because, after that, the investigation may prove something completely different. I have told them that if, at that time, the FIR is filed properly, people will have some satisfaction that, yes, cognizance has been taken.

A culture has developed over the last 20 years in the police of trying not to say anything. So if something happens, you say it was done by the "enemies of peace" which is a great phrase used by even some mainstream political parties. The "enemies of peace" can be anyone or anything. For the mainstream, the enemies of peace are the militants, for the separatists the enemies of peace are the security forces. So you say something without saying anything at all. That culture has crept into the wording of FIRs, but we will correct that.

*But not having been lodged was my question*

That is something that could have been handled with more tact. I will be giving written instructions that not only must a FIR be lodged it must take cognizance of what the initial versions are.

*With army, J&K police and CRPF all over, are you helpless as a politician in a situation like Kashmir?*

No Chief Minister should claim the defence of helplessness because then you have no business being there. So "helpless" is not the reaction that comes to mind. Ok, a sense of frustration, certainly, and I&#8217;d have to be inhuman if that was not a reaction that would creep up once in a while. But we have to accept that incidents -- whether its Macchil or killings on account of law and order disturbances -- are aberrations rather than the rule. There is this transition we are going through from an insurgency to a law and order problem. And, in that, we need to make a transition of mindsets, training, equipment, the transition of deployment and that&#8217;s something recent events will ensure that the pace speeds up.

*Every political reputation gets destroyed in Kashmir. You have four more years&#8230;*

Let&#8217;s put things into perspective. I&#8217;ve had two bad weeks. It&#8217;s a year of 52 weeks. While we should be concerned over what we saw in Kashmir over the last two weeks, it is important to maintain a perspective. We seem to be very quick to judge and most of the judging is done by people who seldom, if at all, visit the valley. Recent events have posed some questions but I&#8217;m here. I have not run away. Whatever erosion of reputation there has been will be shored up. Would you rather have a person who lives in denial? I am willing to admit mistakes and call a spade a spade. 

*Is New Delhi fully behind you? There&#8217;s one impression is that they are making overtures to Mehbooba in exhorting her to attend the all party meet as if that would solve the problem.*

You know and I know that no one person or party can solve the problem. It was perhaps felt that mainstream political parties should talk in one voice. Clearly PDP felt that was not the appropriate course of action. This is the party that talks of self-rule but they want Delhi to solve the problem.

*People here have reacted to Home secretary G.K. Pillai giving facts about curfew in Srinagar as if he was making decisions.*

I&#8217;m not going to join issue with G.K. Pillai or any remarks from the ministry of home or defence or anywhere else. There are sensitivities when dealing with Jammu and Kashmir that need to be kept in mind and we should never give the impression that with an elected government here things are being remote controlled by New Delhi. Decisions to relax or impose curfew are not taken even at the level of the chief minister. They are operational decisions taken by the district collector in consultation with senior officers in headquarters. I am kept informed. New Delhi didn&#8217;t issue an order. They unfortunately gave the impression that they were making recommendations.

*Do you see stone throwing as a form of insurgency or protest?*

It is impossible to pigeonhole it as any one thing. J&K is not about black and white. It is about various shades of grey. What shade of grey you see depends on which side of the fence you are sitting on. For someone it will be frustration and the desire for Azadi. For others it will be frustration on account of limited economic opportunity and lack of jobs. For others, it is paid for. The truth is there are elements of all this in what you see. And the mix of what you get depends on circumstances. What you saw at Sopore in the beginning was the result of the death of a local militant there. But by last week there was rage over the death of Fancy. Now to suggest that was militant-backed or paid for is not right. It was pure anger. As much as somebody may like to believe it was me and my government, in this entire series of protests, when were the slogans against the state government? Or against my person or where my effigy was burnt? Who were the protests against?

*You mean it was all against India?*

It is important to see that. I am accused of frittering away the mandate of 2008. Please put it into perspective that areas where protests spread from are areas that still didn&#8217;t participate in the 2008 elections. I&#8217;m suggesting that the sentiment you see today in some pockets existed in 2008 as well and it is the failure of the system that we haven&#8217;t been able to get them in the system but we have not alienated them further.

*What does azadi really mean today and what can you deliver to the people? There are kids today who shout about Azadi.*

Can you blame them? For 20 years, these two generations have grown up only on this. When you don&#8217;t have jobs you shout, &#8220;Hum kya chahte hain? Azadi&#8221; (What do we want? freedom); when you don&#8217;t have electricity you shout Azadi. This is not new. I remember, in my childhood, when electricity went during a popular TV serial, people people represented to a UN office here. That is the dichotomy in our system. Azadi is the magic cure for any and every problem here. What do people mean by Azadi? is it sustainable? that is a question for people who have sold this dream to the public. It is a question for the separatists.

The NC has said that restoration of the autonomous position J&K had is the most appropriate way of dealing with the political situation. You have all positions from the BJP&#8217;s &#8220;scrap article 370&#8221; to the separatists who say "go beyond the four walls of the constitution". Where the contours will lie depends on a sustained dialogue with Pakistan. That has not been happening. People need to feel there is a better tomorrow, some solution. From time to time they get that sense then it gets taken away from them. That hope was at it&#8217;s strongest when General Musharaff and Manmohan Singh were talking to each other. It started with Vajpayee&#8217;s initiatives but Manmohan Singh took it ahead. People want to see talk on soft borders, autonomy, meaningful substantial things that can lead to a final resolution of this problem that they have been brought up on. Let&#8217;s face it, J&K was first internationalised as a result of the Shimla agreement where it was agreed to resolve all outstanding issues between Indian and Pakistan including Jammu and Kashmir. I was two years old then. I am 40 now. For 38 years I live in a place that still has to be &#8220;resolved&#8221; between India and Pakistan. I am as much part of the mainstream as it is possible to be. Imagine those who are part of the fringe or of a separatist mind set. Imagine what plays on their minds.

Look at the context in which we survive. How do you possibly have an independent J&K straddled between three nuclear powers and crucial rivers flowing both eastwards and westwards through this land when experts tell you that the next battles will be over water? I don&#8217;t think any Chief Minister in this country has to deal with the kind of forces I have to deal with. External factors about India and Pakistan impact my state and I have no way of contributing to that process.

*Many Kashmiris say they are constantly under occupation?*

We tend to narrowly look at this in the perspective of last 20 years. Look a little beyond that. J&K has always had security forces though how visible they are depends on the situation and there is no doubt their visibility has gone up astronomically because of the internal situation here but will improve when things are better and they don&#8217;t have to be in your face so to speak. But please don&#8217;t forget, we share a border with both Pakistan and China, both countries India has gone to war with. J&K cannot suddenly become a demilitarised island in a neighbourhood like this.

*Your family is part of contemporary history. Both your grandfather and father are said to have made great blunders also. Do you now find yourself part of that legacy?*

I always will be part of that legacy and there are both advantages and disadvantages. Some people will always hate me because of the family to which I belong, and I have to accept that. People focus more minutely when things are going wrong. I am in a situation governing a state where almost everybody has an opinion about what I&#8217;m doing. My grandfather and father took several conscious decisions that shaped the future and had to live with the consequences. Some people who believe they can do what I am doing better say my decision to call the army in was a historic blunder. I made the decision and will live with it.


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## Awesome

Pakistan supports the right of self-determination by Kashmiris in a UN administered plebiscite.


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## Awesome

*Mirwaiz seeks UN referendum in Kashmir - Hindustan Times*

Hardening its position in the backdrop of flaring tension and unrest in Kashmir, moderate All Parties Hurriyat Conference chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq on Tuesday sought fair referendum by United Nations to resolve the Kashmir problem. "It is really deplorable and regrettable that UNO, the world forum commanding respect could not facilitate the implementation of its resolutions on Kashmir, UNCIP (United Nations Commission on India and Pakistan) in its Aug 13, 1948 and Jan 5, 1949 resolutions vociferously recommended plebiscite to determine the political future of Kashmir," said the Mirwaiz in a memorandum written to United Nations secretary general Ban Ki-moon.

Departing from former Pakistan president Pervez Musharraf's four-point being a new premise to solve the problem, the Mirwaiz said India and Pakistan have opted to adopt the course of mutual confrontation and belligerency in the fatal wars of 1947, 1965 and 1971.

"In the process, Kashmiris remained steadfast in the peaceful campaign against the obduracy and intransigence of India, which found it convenient to renege on its commitment and pledge regarding a referendum in Kashmir," said the Mirwaiz.

The APHC chairman said, "*Kashmiris, humiliated and mortified, cannot surrender to Indian onslaught come what may*".

"*During the past one month more than 20 innocent Kashmiris were shot dead by the Indian security forces for no fault of their except that they were stressing and emphasising their right to self determination*," he added.

Seeking UN intervention, the Mirwaiz said no peace can be guaranteed in South Asia unless Kashmir issue is amicably settled by the parties to the issue namely India.

"It is high time global leaders are engaged in efforts to ensure peaceful settlement of the crisis in Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine. We the beleaguered Kashmiris make a fervent appeal to the global pacifists to redouble their efforts for the early peaceful settlement of Kashmir issue," the memorandum says.

It asked the world community to impress upon India to revoke the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA), withdraw all armed forces from populated areas and remove the all-imposing security apparatus from the state, release all political prisoners and young boys languishing in various jails in India.

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## Awesome

civfanatic said:


> Asim Bhai though Mirwaiz is One of biggest sepratist leaders in Kashmir It is the octogenarian Syed Ali shah Geelani who has worked hard to prepare people for this struggle . Just to add a lil bit of local prespective . I hope you wont mind


Geelani is Mullah crowd, younger generation will not be able to associate with him. Mirwaiz belongs to a more secular outlook and can be a true leader in Kashmir.

Geelani is good for the show and dance, but not a leader.

---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 PM ----------




civfanatic said:


> Asim Bhai though Mirwaiz is One of biggest sepratist leaders in Kashmir It is the octogenarian Syed Ali shah Geelani who has worked hard to prepare people for this struggle . Just to add a lil bit of local prespective . I hope you wont mind


Geelani is Mullah crowd, younger generation will not be able to associate with him. Mirwaiz belongs to a more secular outlook and can be a true leader in Kashmir.

Geelani is good for the show and dance, but not a leader.


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## Awesome

*Mass sit-ins referendum for self-determination: Aasiya | Kashmir Media Service*

Srinagar, July 16 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, the Chairperson of Dukhtaran-e-Millat, Aasiya Andrabi has said that the mass sit-ins across the Valley on Thursday were a referendum for right to self-determination.

Aasiya Andrabi, while addressing a massive gathering of women, who had staged a sit-in at Habba Kadal in Srinagar, said that the sit-ins should serve as an eye-opener for the occupation authorities and India.

She said that the Omar Abdullah-led puppet administration was living in fools paradise if it believed that it could suppress the Kashmiris' ongoing movement for securing right to self-determination by imposing restrictions and curfews. She added that the Kashmiri people would continue the freedom struggle till last Indian trooper left Jammu and Kashmir.

Aasiya appealed to the people to massively participate in the programmes announced by the forum patronised y veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Gilani.

Meanwhile, the spokesman of Jammu and Kashmir Muslim League in a statement has urged the Kashmiri people to make a success the Quit Kashmir Campaign announced by the forum patronised by Syed Ali Gilani. He said that lacs of Kashmiris had rendered their lives for the liberation of Kashmir from Indian bondage and the sacrifices of Kashmiri martyrs would not be allowed to go waste.


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## civfanatic

SELF DELETE


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## civfanatic

Asim Aquil said:


> Geelani is Mullah crowd, younger generation will not be able to associate with him. Mirwaiz belongs to a more secular outlook and can be a true leader in Kashmir.
> 
> Geelani is good for the show and dance, but not a leader.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 PM ----------
> 
> 
> Geelani is Mullah crowd, younger generation will not be able to associate with him. Mirwaiz belongs to a more secular outlook and can be a true leader in Kashmir.
> 
> Geelani is good for the show and dance, but not a leader.



Infact Geelani is much more popular among youth in Kashmir and the reason for that is he is seen as someone who is more honest , consistent and steadfast in his views about Kashmir . It was Geelani who brought alive this whole movement in 2008 Amaranth agitation when Mirwaiz couldn't smell the coffee and see that India was not taking seriously the four point formula of Musharraf on Kashmir . and more seriously that Kashmiri youth were not accepting the Musharraf formula of status qou . Geelani defenitly is religious in his personal life and that also leaves its effects on politics but if his politics is seen over whole range of issues he takes surprisingly secular view on politics . But I think that secular or religous is not the substantive issue here. One more thing that I want top add here is that Geelani is religous in way Allama Iqbal was religous .


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## Awesome

civfanatic said:


> Infact Geelani is much more popular among youth in Kashmir and the reason for that is he is seen as someone who is more honest , consistent and steadfast in his views about Kashmir . It was Geelani who brought alive this whole movement in 2008 Amaranth agitation when Mirwaiz couldn't smell the coffee and see that India was not taking seriously the four point formula of Musharraf on Kashmir . and more seriously that Kashmiri youth were not accepting the Musharraf formula of status qou . Geelani defenitly is religious in his personal life and that also leaves its effects on politics but if his politics is seen over whole range of issues he takes surprisingly secular view on politics . But I think that secular or religous is not the substantive issue here. One more thing that I want top add here is that Geelani is religous in way Allama Iqbal was religous .


I'm one of those guys who support the idea of an Independent Kashmir more than a unification with Pakistan. Simply because I think that is a lot more achievable and realistic. However the decision remains of Kashmiris alone.

Kashmiris have to remember a unified Kashmiri nation has to be secular in nature and not a theocratic Islamic state.


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## KS

Even if they r chargesheeted they should not be discharged or demoted.....jus a suspension of a month or two (with half pay) so that they can have a break,compose themselves,re-collect themselves and then again be back with a bang.

Y should we be punishing our Majors and Cols just to appease few traitors/separatists in the Valley and then again wen there is a officer shortage in the Army..?

IA - the billion ppl of India are behind U......


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## somebozo

They talk about PA and ISI funding terrorist when it looks very much like inside jobs by money hungry IA staff or driven by corrupt mentality.


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## Mirza Jatt

yes, punish the officers as they are supposed to..and equally punish the hired stone pelters and the protesters who are responsible for provocating police who retaliate to defend themselves.


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## notsuperstitious

Not the first time, Indian army has punished and disciplined scores of its own for abusing their powers. This clearly shows that the cases of abuses (and they do happen when you pur armed forces and civilians in a trust deficit situation) are not the official policy of the security forces.

This is a nice example in a suncontinent where armies have gone scot free even after killing hundreds of thousands of civilians without any actions being taken against the perpetrators.


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## Awesome

Karthic Sri said:


> Even if they r chargesheeted they should not be discharged or demoted.....jus a suspension of a month or two (with half pay) so that they can have a break,compose themselves,re-collect themselves and then again be back with a bang.
> 
> Y should we be punishing our Majors and Cols just to appease few traitors/separatists in the Valley and then again wen there is a officer shortage in the Army..?
> 
> IA - the billion ppl of India are behind U......


They killed normal people and claimed they killed militants? You see nothing wrong with that?

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## Join

Asim Aquil said:


> They killed normal people and claimed they killed militants? You see nothing wrong with that?



When You dont see anything wrong in freedom fighters Killing Innocent Lives, why should we care for some guy who by himself is a Liability to the nation??? Makes sense???? If it dosent, Read again

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## Awesome

Join said:


> When You dont see anything wrong in freedom fighters Killing Innocent Lives, why should we care for some guy who by himself is a Liability to the nation??? Makes sense???? If it dosent, Read again


Actually we want freedom fighters to kill IA serving in Kashmir only and protect innocent lives from being killed in these fake encounters by the IA

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## DaRk WaVe

Asim Aquil said:


> They killed normal people and claimed they killed militants? You see nothing wrong with that?



Ohh actually its normal for them, They have to fullfill the quota, Everyone's a militant...



> *Indian Army and Police Tied to Kashmir Killings​*
> SRINAGAR, Kashmir, Feb. 3 &#8212; Amid a grove of poplar trees in a village just north of here, a grave was unearthed Thursday afternoon. Out came the body of a man, shot dead nearly two months ago, whom the Indian police described at the time as an anti-Indian militant from Pakistan.
> 
> An elderly man, who had been searching for his missing son for nearly two months, was summoned for the exhumation. He stared at the horror dug out of the ground and told the police what he had refused to believe all this time. &#8220;He is my son,&#8221; he said. Then he sat on the bare ground and shook.
> 
> *As it turned out, the dead man, Abdul Rehman Paddar, was not a Pakistani at all, nor a militant. He was a Kashmiri carpenter from a village south of here. The Indian police are now investigating whether he was killed by some of their own men, for motives that could range from personal revenge to greed. A suspected militant&#8217;s body, after all, comes with a handsome cash reward. By Saturday, four police officers were under arrest in connection with Mr. Paddar&#8217;s killing.*
> 
> S. M. Sahai, the chief of police for Kashmir, said his investigators were looking into whether at least two other bodies were part of the same ring; setups like the killing of Mr. Paddar are known here as &#8220;encounter killings.&#8221; Each of the victims had been killed in operations conducted jointly by the police and either an Indian Army unit or a paramilitary force that operates under army command, he said.
> 
> By the end of the day on Saturday, as the investigation snowballed, a total of five bodies had been exhumed, all in the area surrounding Sumbal, and their identities were being checked.
> 
> The exhumations have not only unearthed a deep well of resentment among the people of Indian-administered Kashmir, but have also forced the Indian government to face anew long-simmering charges of abuse by Indian soldiers and the police.
> 
> Kashmiris have long accused the Indian authorities of disappearances and extrajudicial killings; one local human rights group estimates that 10,000 people have disappeared since the anti-Indian insurgency began here in 1989. Nor have civilians been immune to the savagery of militants; beheadings are among their favored tactics.
> 
> India blames its rival and neighbor, Pakistan, for aiding and arming the insurgents. Pakistan denies the charge, and does not recognize India&#8217;s claim to Kashmir. Claimed by both countries, Kashmir has been a center of strife for nearly 60 years.
> 
> While the violence has calmed considerably since a 2004 peace deal between India and Pakistan, it has hardly ended the bloodshed or diminished the presence of Indian troops here. India says troop reduction can begin only when the militants lay down their weapons.
> 
> _Those troops have been blamed repeatedly for human rights abuses here, most recently by a 156-page report released last October by Human Rights Watch, which detailed dozens of cases in which, it said, the state had failed to hold its security forces accountable for suspected abductions, killings and detentions._
> 
> *Among the most infamous of those cases were the March 2000 killings in the southern village of Pathirabal of five men, whom the army identified as foreign terrorists responsible for a massacre of Sikh civilians. The men, whose bodies had been burned and badly mutilated, turned out to be civilians abducted by the army, according to relatives and a subsequent federal investigation.
> *
> *In a rare instance of prosecution, five Indian soldiers were charged with the killings, but the case remains stuck in the courts nearly seven years later, and the accused remain on the job. The army insists that they be tried by an internal court martial, and not a civilian court.*
> 
> Human Rights Watch blamed the Indian government for what it called its &#8220;lack of commitment&#8221; to accountability and a series of Indian laws that shield soldiers in conflict zones like Kashmir. &#8220;This has led to a serious climate of impunity,&#8221; the report concluded.
> 
> Indian officials have explicitly sought to use the latest cases of encounter killings to rebut accusations of impunity, pointing out that they have taken the lead in investigating army and police officials linked to what they call isolated abuses of power.
> 
> &#8220;This is an aberration,&#8221; Mr. Sahai, the police chief, said in an interview in his office here in the summer capital of Indian-run Kashmir. &#8220;This is not the rule. We have not tried to suppress anything. Whatever are the facts of the case have come out in the open. If we are trying to set our house in order, that should increase public confidence.&#8221;
> 
> *more:* http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/06/world/asia/06kashmir.html

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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

*Its good that they are being investigated and should be justly punished if they are guilty.No one is above the law of the land..*

*and to my fellow Pakistani brothers and sisters , I think you should rather be more worried about extra judicial killings taking place in Pakistan right now or punishing those who were responsible for massacre of millions, 39 yrs back.*


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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> He said that lacs of Kashmiris had rendered their lives for the liberation of Kashmir from Indian bondage and the* sacrifices of Kashmiri martyrs would not be allowed to go waste.*



Ji...the same can be said of the Indian soldiers who have laid down their lives for their motherland and for the thousands of innocent Indians who have spilled their blood due to the terrorism emanating from elsewere that has Kashmir as the root cause.

We cannot allow the sacrifices of our martyrs too to go in vain.


p.s.: But we can reduce the future sacrifices if we are content with wat we have and not covet wat other have.



Asim Aquil said:


> I'm one of those guys who support the idea of an Independent Kashmir more than a unification with Pakistan. Simply because I think that is a *lot more achievable and realistic.* However the decision remains of Kashmiris alone.



On the contrary it is a invitation for disaster for the Kashmiris as Kashmir will become another Afghanistan - a playground for bitter rivals affecting the locals.


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## WAQAS119

Karthic Sri said:


> Even if they r chargesheeted *they should not be discharged or demoted*.....jus a suspension of a month or two (with half pay) so that they can have a break,compose themselves,re-collect themselves and then again be back with a bang.
> 
> Y should we be punishing our Majors and Cols just to appease few traitors/separatists in the Valley and then again wen there is a officer shortage in the Army..?
> 
> IA - the billion ppl of India are behind U......



OMG! You seems to have no emotions for those innocent Kashmiris which were killed by those charged!!!!
If billion people of india are behind IA for this act, then Kashmiris demand for freedom is legitimate.


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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> Actually we want freedom fighters to kill IA serving in Kashmir only and protect innocent lives from being killed in these fake encounters by the IA



Ji wen u dont bat an eyelid to say that u want IA killed in Kashmir by the so called freedom fighters ..pls expect the same from me wen i say I give two hoots wen some traitor/deparatist is killed by my "defender of freedom" (IA personnel).


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## KS

WAQAS119 said:


> OMG! You seems to have no emotions for those innocent Kashmiris which were killed by those charged!!!!
> If billion people of india are behind IA for this act, then Kashmiris demand for freedom is legitimate.



Y should I..? These ppl dont think of them as Indians...Y shuld i care for them..?

please dont take me wrongly..but it is human nature not to care for ppl wen they dont care for u.


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## aristocrat

idiotic comment karthic sri


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## TaimiKhan

Asim Aquil said:


> They killed normal people and claimed they killed militants? You see nothing wrong with that?



Nops, it seems he wants them to be back with a bang and kill a few more.


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## KS

aristocrat said:


> idiotic comment karthic sri



Thanx.......I m not a saint..but a normal emotional human being who cares for those who care abt him ..not for everyone on this planet.


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## aristocrat

Does that mean u will turn a blind eye to injustice if it does not effect the people u "care".Are u so narrow minded or am i unable to understand u.Do clarify


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## KS

aristocrat said:


> Does that mean u will turn a blind eye to injustice if it does not effect the people u "care".Are u so narrow minded or am i unable to understand u.Do clarify



Wen the affected ppl burn the flag i bear in my heart and openly proclaim that they dont want to be Indians after utilising the tax money that I pay...then yes I dont care.


p.s.: The insensitivity is limited only for those ppl..If any other ppl suffer any injustice then im all for action against those responsible

I would also like to add another thing - my above statement doesnt imply that i have the same feelings for the inocent Pakistani civilians who are unfortunately killed by bomb blasts in their country.
My heart goes out for them.

I only hate those traitors/backstabbers who willingly utilize the aid that the central govt gives them and them proclaim that they want to be independent.By the same logic the goons of TTP also deserve the same treatment.

Hope i have cleared myself.

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## Evil Flare

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> *Its good that they are being investigated and should be justly punished if they are guilty.No one is above the law of the land..*
> 
> *and to my fellow Pakistani brothers and sisters , I think you should rather be more worried about extra judicial killings taking place in Pakistan right now or punishing those who were responsible for massacre of millions, 39 yrs back.*





We have every right to raise voice ... Pakistan is a party in Kashmir Dispute ...


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## EjazR

*Organised madness Lastupdate:- Sun, 18 Jul 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com*

Want to end the mess, explore ways to compromise
BY SAJJAD BAZAZ


The current spell of political turmoil once again reminds us that in Kashmir peace process is elusive. Peacemaking has always remained a dangerous enterprise in this worlds most dangerous conflict zone. This is because of the fact that a good section of those who matter in Kashmir conflict have vested interests in continued bloodshed here. There are scores of incidents on record when positive developments here have easily been countered by renewed waves of violence and peace sabotaged.

*It is nothing new that a state of confusion prevails here. In fact it is in every cadre, be it mainstream cadres or separatist cadres, which has taken the toll of civil population. Confusion looms large within NC-Congress coalition government, where element of mistrust refuses to die.* If reports are to be believed, then nothing is fine even within National Conference and resentment among its cadres has left many (those who matter) disillusioned.

The infighting within local Congress leadership is not new and has even put the Delhi high command in dilemma. These infightings within local mainstream cadres and that too when they are in power have taken toll of the government functioning.

As far as central government is concerned, their approach to deal with the realities in Kashmir reflects nothing but lack of wisdom. Dubbing stone pelting youth as associates of Lashkar-i-Toiba is surprising for the kind of poor thinking which the Delhi Darbar think tank is capable of.

Take the case of separatist cadres. State of confusion is not even new among their cadres. They have time and again shown lack of consensus while seeking resolution to the Kashmir issue.

When Omar Abdullah led coalition government with a brigade of young minds took over the reigns in the state, the time was projected as the beginning of an era of realism in the context of core Kashmir issue and development on core fronts to explore the economic potential of the state.

But the current spell of turmoil has belied the claims that this young brigade was capable of bringing peace and prosperity to the state by addressing the core political issue confronting the state. In fact, the government, so far, has been reactive and never showed any inclination to act proactively. Simply, these months of governance have proved the political mismanagement of this brigade.

The current situation has exposed the myth that all is well now in Kashmir. It is simply an act of organized madness where confusion looms large within coalition government, within National Conference Congress and within the separatist cadres.

It is pertinent to mention here that the response of the people to the election-2008 call was for good governance as well as to seek an everlasting solution to Kashmir imbroglio. While taking ongoing civil unrest into account, it can be easily said that the biggest failure of the state government has not only been on governance front but also on political front where it was supposed to seek an organized political resolution of the issue. This regime has failed to accord acceptability and respectability of the feelings of the people. The genuine aspirations of the people have not been respected and not to talk of accommodating them with dignity.

Precisely, Omar Abdullah has not only failed to capitalize on the opportunity to resurrect his partys reputation, but has also failed to bring in change for betterment. A slight rewind of the events reminds of some important statements, which Omar Abdullah dished out in the context of Kashmir issue.

Before assuming the power, he opposed the suggestions that the Kashmir issue should be 'deep frozen'. While at the helm of affair, he himself allowed the issue to be deep frozen and never evinced any interest in working with other forces in finding a solution to the Kashmir issue.

Meanwhile, powers at New Delhi too have not changed their approach towards the Kashmir issue, despite change of regime in the state. They wrongly took the legislative assembly elections 2008 as peoples verdict in favour of India. Even as they took certain initiatives in the past to work out a solution to the Kashmir problem, at the end of the day such initiatives proved hoax. At a time when five working groups were appointed in 2006 by New Delhi to develop an agreed vision of Jammu and Kashmir's future, a ray of hope was visible to seek an end to the Kashmir mess. The five working groups submitted their recommendations, which never saw light.

*For example, Muhammad Hamid Ansari's working group on confidence-building measures had asserted that "certain laws made operational during the period of militancy (the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, the Disturbed Areas Act) impinge on [the] fundamental rights of citizens and adversely affect the public." It demanded that the laws "should be reviewed and revoked." In addition, the working group suggested that the "cases of all persons in jail should be reviewed, and a general amnesty given to those under trial for minor offenses or who are innocent." *

*Similarly, working group on strengthening cross-Line of Control relations suggested that "a joint consultative group or committee of 10 members each of the legislatures of both sides may be constituted to exchange views periodically on social, economic, cultural and trade-related matters of mutual interest." In addition, "joint consultative groups of professionals may be set up for horticulture, tourism promotion and environment protection." Even working group on good governance did not confine itself only to administrative issues. It noted that "the State Human Rights Commission requires strengthening" and calls for the creation of "a high-powered committee (including political representatives and civil society members) for enforcing human rights."*

All of us know the fate of such recommendations and initiatives which have only proved a time buying activity.

*In todays situation, separatist conglomerates cannot escape criticism. With a common goal, they have surprisingly always shown lack of consensus. The election 2008 has already shown them the power of peoples leadership. They need to base their approach on realism and a strategy to carry forward the struggle where ground situation is taken into account. They should not aspire for things, which are impractical. So far they have failed to pursue their goal (resolution of dispute) with wisdom, reasonableness and farsightedness.*

*The honest and frank assertion of Mirwaiz Umar Farooq during a conference in Srinagar a few years back during a seminar that you dont get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate should be basis of a renewed approach in modern times. They have to move from traditional stand of bashing pro-India politicians and at least seek a constructive engagement with regional parties.*

At the same time, New Delhi has to come out of the cocooned politics, as it breeds miseries for Kashmiris. At least they have to listen to their own people, particularly a section of the think tank, who have time and again favoured resolution of the dispute. They have to realise that the bad governance is not the cause of the dispute, but it is the basic nature of the dispute which has not allowed good governance. *If all the parties involved in the conflict want to come out of the mess, then they should explore the huge scope for compromises. Otherwise it is nothing but an organized madness.*


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## hembo

Karthic Sri said:


> Y should I..? These ppl dont think of them as Indians...Y shuld i care for them..?
> 
> please dont take me wrongly..but it is human nature not to care for ppl wen they dont care for u.



Mr. Karthic Sri,

Trust me brother, you're not being a NORMAL human being. You are treading on the line that if your own brother said something against you, you're ready to get him killed because he didn't care for you. If you are a Indian and believe that Kashmir is a integral part of India, then you should appreciate that the Kashmiri youths are also our brothers. more importantly, this is human life we are talking about. Just because someone does not agree with your point of view, does not make them eligible to get killed by you.

Killing violent separatist and innocent civilians cannot be viewed from the same perspective. I agree that sometimes unwanted innocent killing do happen in a war-like situation, but planned killing of civilians or even peaceful protesters in NEVER ACCEPTABLE. No one should be treated as above the law of the land...

If you give a hoot to Kashmiri civilians what's the point saying Kashmir is ours.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Aamir Zia said:


> We have every right to raise voice ... Pakistan is a party in Kashmir Dispute ...



You can raise your voice..as much as you want..*but nobody pays heed to hypocrites..
*
First punish those, who were responsible for murder of millions in erst while east pakistan..present day extra judicial killings..and then raise your voice for killings in Kashmir.

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## FreekiN

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> You can raise your voice..as much as you want..*but nobody pays heed to hypocrites..
> *
> *First punish those, who were responsible for murder of millions in erst while east pakistan..present day extra judicial killings..and then raise your voice for killings in Kashmir.*



Most of them are dead, but that's none of your business. The same way the naxalites who control 1/3rd of India aren't our business.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

FreekiN said:


> Most of them are dead, but that's none of your business. The same way the naxalites who control 1/3rd of India aren't our business.



Well , first of all do you actually regret the loss of lie in East Pakistan..and if you do ..*what did you do punish those responsible..at least when they were alive??*

That is why..nobody pays heed to hypocrites, *when you dont care for the lives of your own countrymen..your crocodile tear for Kashmiris..do not effect anyone.*


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## FreekiN

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> Well , first of all do you actually regret the loss of lie in East Pakistan..and if you do ..what did you do punish those responsible..at least when they were alive??
> 
> That is why..nobody pays heed to hypocrites, when you dont care for the lives of your own countrymen..your crocodile tear for Kashmiris..doesnot effect anyone.



Take a look at history, who had democracy and who didnt? 

Maybe if we had democracy we would have. But too bad, we didn't. And because we didn't it's not our fault. 

I remember someone said the same thing when Pakistan let China grab Aksai Chin. We don't give much of a care about land where there is no population that gives us an interest. Aksai Chin = Muslim population-12

So call yourself a 'hypocrite' for claiming Kashmir but killing thousands who live there and then having the audacity to kill innocent people hiding under the word, "terrorist."


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## KS

hembo said:


> Mr. Karthic Sri,
> 
> Trust me brother, you're not being a NORMAL human being. You are treading on the line that if your own brother said something against you, you're ready to get him killed because he didn't care for you. If you are a Indian and believe that Kashmir is a integral part of India, then you should appreciate that the Kashmiri youths are also our brothers. more importantly, this is human life we are talking about. Just because someone does not agree with your point of view, does not make them eligible to get killed by you.
> 
> Killing violent separatist and innocent civilians cannot be viewed from the same perspective. I agree that sometimes unwanted innocent killing do happen in a war-like situation, but planned killing of civilians or even peaceful protesters in NEVER ACCEPTABLE. No one should be treated as above the law of the land...
> 
> If you give a hoot to Kashmiri civilians what's the point saying Kashmir is ours.



If u had read my last post a bit clearer u would not have written this post.

Anyway let me again clarify my stand:

This was my post:



> Wen the affected ppl burn the flag i bear in my heart and openly proclaim that they dont want to be Indians after utilising the tax money that I pay...then yes I dont care.
> 
> p.s.: The insensitivity is limited only for those ppl..If any other ppl suffer any injustice then im all for action against those responsible



I have stated clearly that i dont care only for those separatist people who take it below their pride to be Indians and burn Indian flags and wat not..

Other than those ppl all others - even Kashmiri Muslims have my sympathies.

Moreoevr i ve also said my heart goes out to the innocent Pakistanis who are martyred by those bomb blasts.So im not as cold hearted as u make me out to be.

But if u suggest that i also care for those separatist elements or those who utilise my tax money but dont call themselves as Indians - then sorry im not the person.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

FreekiN said:


> Take a look at history, who had democracy and who didnt?
> 
> Maybe if we had democracy we would have. But too bad, we didn't. And because we didn't it's not our fault.


You had democracy after 1972 till 1979 and then 1989 to1999 ..what, did you do to punish the ones responsible ??

And you have democracy now, what are you doing to punish the ones responsible for extra judicial killing taking place now??



FreekiN said:


> So call yourself a 'hypocrite' for claiming Kashmir but killing thousands who live there, hypocrite.



And unlike you, I won't hide behind excuses..*and firmly support punishing those, who are responsible for murder of innocents..be that be anyone.*

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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> Even if they r chargesheeted they should not be discharged or demoted.....jus a suspension of a month or two (with half pay) so that they can have a break,compose themselves,re-collect themselves and then again be back with a bang.
> 
> Y should we be punishing our Majors and Cols just to appease few traitors/separatists in the Valley and then again wen there is a officer shortage in the Army..?
> 
> IA - the billion ppl of India are behind U......



I am reporting his post for being too low class.


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## notsuperstitious

FreekiN said:


> I remember someone said the same thing when Pakistan let China grab Aksai Chin. We don't give much of a care about land where there is no population that gives us an interest. Aksai Chin = Muslim population-12



Not interested in land? So Pakistan is not interested in land? And why, because they sold, i mean gave China a piece of Kashmir in return of - well can't be anything material, must be just brotherhood then, for those uighur muslims maybe! Nice, now take all those people you care for and make this easier for all.


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## hembo

Karthic Sri said:


> If u had read my last post a bit clearer u would not have written this post.
> 
> Anyway let me again clarify my stand:
> 
> This was my post:
> 
> 
> 
> I have stated clearly that i dont care only for those separatist people who take it below their pride to be Indians and burn Indian flags and wat not..
> 
> Other than those ppl all others - even Kashmiri Muslims have my sympathies.
> 
> Moreoevr i ve also said my heart goes out to the innocent Pakistanis who are martyred by those bomb blasts.So im not as cold hearted as u make me out to be.
> 
> But if u suggest that i also care for those separatist elements or those who utilise my tax money but dont call themselves as Indians - then sorry im not the person.



Well whatever is your intention or how much ever are you compassionate, your first post was uncalled for. This thread was about JK police charge-sheeting IA personal on a FAKE ENCOUNTER case. But without waiting for a second, you started to defend those alleged by an INDIAN STATE POLICE. If it was really a fake encounter, there is pretty high probability that those killed in the encounter was/ were innocent. So it appeared as if you were defending people killing innocents in cold blood just because they were Indian Army men.

P.S.: I don't know about your experience, but I hail from Assam and have witnessed similar incidents first hand in the late 80s and early 90s. I am equally patriotic, if not more, then you. But that should not allow one to keep anyone above the law of my land.

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## amoverlord

as a northeast resident myself.....i feel frustrated n angered............3 killed in fake encounter....n everybody is jumping(not that its a meager incident)....but alas when 30 ppl killed in fake encounter in my region then nobody even knows........i dont understand whats the obsession with kashmir...why only kashmir is important to india-pak(for goi NE is nothng n for gop baloochistan etc.)......central govt. will send army to northeast n kashmir to crush separatists but is reluctant to use IA against maoist....bloody politicians......also the problem in north east can be solved within months if govt. wants......but no they r busy with kashmir,kashmir this kashmir that....i think maybe only handful of indians know the situation in manipur now,petrol Rs.150/ltr,gas cylinder Rs2000/-......n about pakistan what can i say......kashmirkashmirkashmir blahblahblahblah.
i'm just fed up...

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## xyz

UN has no role anymore
its on Pakistan and India to resolve the issue through dialogues.


and what Kind of self determination?? Like in Azad Kashmir, which is just an another example of ***.


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## hembo

^^^^

Well, this is a Pakistani forum and therefore it is only natural that people will mostly discuss topic which are important to Pakistan's point of view. while I do agree with your sentiment, but this is not the place where such sentiments will be appreciated by others much.


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## amoverlord

^^^^^
khong uthi jai he......iman gurutto kasmir khonor kintu axom ba NE kunu daam nai.....pakistani keitak baru baad diok,..............indian ketaio eku najane aru care nokore.............

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## Join

Asim Aquil said:


> Actually we want freedom fighters to kill IA serving in Kashmir only and protect innocent lives from being killed in these fake encounters by the IA



But when It happens the other way around why make it look like Innocent Lives?? Freedom Fighters aka Terrorists Might be Innocent to you, But for the rest of the world they are a Bunch of rogues


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## Awesome

Karthic Sri said:


> Ji wen u dont bat an eyelid to say that u want IA killed in Kashmir by the so called freedom fighters ..pls expect the same from me wen i say I give two hoots wen some traitor/deparatist is killed by my "defender of freedom" (IA personnel).


Well killing enemy combatants is normal, I shouldn't be expected to bat an eye over it. You're talking about killing civilians in fake encounters and and claiming medals for it. I'm within the rules of engagement of war, you're supporting murderous fiends.

Difference? I'm right, you're horribly wrong. As is India in everything related to Kashmir.


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## Awesome

Join said:


> But when It happens the other way around why make it look like Innocent Lives?? Freedom Fighters aka Terrorists Might be Innocent to you, But for the rest of the world they are a Bunch of rogues


Apparently they are being charged under Indian law that IA has been going around killing innocent people. All of Kashmir is protesting because you've been killing Innocent people.

Some people are pretending like its a good thing and playing up the fact that "India gives out justice". Justice had to be beaten out of India by the Kashmiris after massive protests. Moreover this is now an internet, mobile cameras and 3G on your cellphones world. It's not the 90s where the truth can be buried by a media blackout. The amount of cases that are coming forward are giving legitimacy to the oft repeated claim against India that it is engaged in a genocide. That it is murdering innocents.


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## Awesome

xyz said:


> UN has no role anymore
> its on Pakistan and India to resolve the issue through dialogues.
> 
> 
> and what Kind of self determination?? Like in Azad Kashmir, which is just an another example of ***.


Only Kashmiris have the right to decide their own future, they are demanding their rights. Grant them, or else they'll keep beating the crap out of your security forces.

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## Join

Asim Aquil said:


> Apparently they are being charged under Indian law that IA has been going around killing innocent people. All of Kashmir is protesting because you've been killing Innocent people.
> 
> Some people are pretending like its a good thing and playing up the fact that "India gives out justice". Justice had to be beaten out of India by the Kashmiris after massive protests. Moreover this is now an internet, mobile cameras and 3G on your cellphones world. It's not the 90s where the truth can be buried by a media blackout. The amount of cases that are coming forward are giving legitimacy to the oft repeated claim against India that it is engaged in a genocide. That it is murdering innocents.



India is doing full justice to the kashmirs, if there are fake encounters such as these, if at all they are, yesterday a Political leader from tamil nadu was taken to custody for giving a hate speech on Sri lanka....

India is Doing things in a Proper manner, how many times have You seen , Pakistan taking any Action when There are Anti-India speeches, by hafiz saied, Well Does Your court of law permits such action???

Next when Your country by itself does not have a Proper Law, Why blame others? Next to kashmir. India has Every legitimate reason to have kashmir, and Since 60 years Pakistan has been trying to get it.... India has grown a Lot since then, And what makes You think You can grab it back again???


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## Goodperson

Kashmir is an integral Part of India, Pakistan is using common religion and terror to get hold in Kashmir.
To begin with why doesn't Pakistan have referendum in its states if it want to be in Pakistan this would set example for others.

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## SMC

Goodperson said:


> Kashmir is an integral Part of India, Pakistan is using common religion and terror to get hold in Kashmir.
> To begin with why doesn't Pakistan have referendum in its states if it want to be in Pakistan this would set example for others.



Any proof that Pakistan is behind this?

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## Join

SMC said:


> Any proof that Pakistan is behind this?



Yes, your interest shows it, Pakistan has only one thing to talk, kashmir... Well Your own Diplomats say, they are supporting kashmir morally.... well that is how much open they can be, And its understood, in what MORAL manner they are supporting....

Well even if We have proof or no proof, it dosent matter, we dont need to prove it to the world that pakistan is behind this, as we dont need to appeal it as the ball is already in our court....


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## KS

> Grant them, *or else they'll keep beating the crap out of your security forces.*




U seriously think this kind of blackmail will work with India...?? 

And as for the bolded part..*please dont cry if the security forces retaliate after they get a beating*....

After it comes to violence everything is fair...Kashmiris use wat they have and the security forces retaliate with wat they have. - FAIR -

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## SMC

Join said:


> Yes, your interest shows it, Pakistan has only one thing to talk, kashmir... Well Your own Diplomats say, they are supporting kashmir morally.... well that is how much open they can be, And its understood, in what MORAL manner they are supporting....
> 
> Well even if We have proof or no proof, it dosent matter, we dont need to prove it to the world that pakistan is behind this, as we dont need to appeal it as the ball is already in our court....



Yes, well, you see, such circumstantial evidence is never taken seriously in any place in the world.

And if you say that you don't need to prove anything, then you're setting up yourself for double standards that can be applied against you as well.

But I will ask again, where is the proof? In famous Indian words, proof or it's all BS.


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## Join

SMC said:


> Yes, well, you see, such circumstantial evidence is never taken seriously in any place in the world.
> 
> And if you say that you don't need to prove anything, then you're setting up yourself for double standards that can be applied against you as well.
> 
> But I will ask again, where is the proof? In famous Indian words, proof or it's all BS.



As I told you, We dont need to prove it to the world that pakistan is doing anything in kashmir, as India is Not Appealing so,any where.. India is In turn trying to avoid International Attention there....

Yes, Pakistan has No Interest in Kashmir, as you by yourself say... Thats Enough for me to hear, then it becomes, we have all the legitimate reasons to have it with us.... Pakistan dosent even Care for kashmir  .. Happy Now buddy.....


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## SMC

You're going way off tangent. I was for something else you went totally off-topic.


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## Join

SMC said:


> You're going way off tangent. I was for something else you went totally off-topic.



Off topic??? Hello?? we are still in kashmir


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## KS

hembo said:


> Well whatever is your intention or how much ever are you compassionate, your first post was uncalled for. This thread was about JK police charge-sheeting IA personal on a FAKE ENCOUNTER case. But without waiting for a second, you started to defend those alleged by an INDIAN STATE POLICE. If it was really a fake encounter, there is pretty high probability that those killed in the encounter was/ were innocent. So it appeared as if you were defending people killing innocents in cold blood just because they were Indian Army men.
> 
> P.S.: I don't know about your experience, but I hail from Assam and have witnessed similar incidents first hand in the late 80s and early 90s. I am equally patriotic, if not more, then you. But that should not allow one to keep anyone above the law of my land.



Well if i have hurt ur emotions then i apologise to u..and only u...

But i ve clarified my position in the later posts....hope u had read that instead of clinging to my earlier post.


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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> Well killing enemy combatants is normal, I shouldn't be expected to bat an eye over it. *You're talking about killing civilians in fake encounters *and and claiming medals for it. I'm within the rules of engagement of war, you're supporting murderous fiends.
> 
> Difference? I'm right, you're horribly wrong. As is India in everything related to Kashmir.



Why is everyone clinging to my earlier post and wilfully ignoring the later one ..??

Please read my post # 20.

Secondly if those innocent civilians burn my flag and dont call themselves as Indians why should i care abt them..?

Dont u think the same abt the misguided Baluchis who are separatist and burn Pakistani flags..or the TTP ..?


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## Jade

Asim Aquil said:


> Only Kashmiris have the right to decide their own future, they are demanding their rights. Grant them, or else they'll keep beating the crap out of your security forces.



You seem to have much hardened position on Kashmir then of your own government. Off late I havent seen any of the Pakistans Minister or official harping on UN referendum Not even in the press conference of the foreign ministers


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## Jade

Mirwaiz is not Kashmir.

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## rohailmalhi

jade1982 said:


> You seem to have much hardened position on Kashmir then of your own government. Off late I havent seen any of the Pakistans Minister or official harping on UN referendum Not even in the press conference of the foreign ministers



Coz then u Indians will start the propaganda tht Pakistani is involved in
the violent protests in Indian Held Kashmir.so they are just watching it quietly .


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## Fighter488

*Pak rakes up Kashmir issue with US​*
PTI, Jul 19, 2010, 04.19pm IST

*ISLAMABAD*: With US secretary of state Hillary Clinton by his side, Pakistan foreign minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi on Monday raked up the Kashmir issue and said his country wants a sustained dialogue with India. 

Qureshi, who has been blowing hot and cold against India in the last few days after a deadlock in the Indo-Pak talks, said, *"sustaining dialogue with India and finding a just solution of the Kashmir dispute" was part of the "convergent interest" of US and Pakistan*. 

The Pakistan foreign minister referred to Kashmir and India in his opening remarks at the US-Pak strategic dialogue with Clinton here on Monday morning. 

*"This vision is driven by our convergent interest in the present day including fighting the twin menace of extremism and terrorism," Qureshi said, referring to the mutual interest of the two countries in the region.* 

During the joint press conference by Clinton and Qureshi, there was no reference to Kashmir, India or last week's meeting of the two foreign ministers. 

However, diplomatic sources said Clinton told the Pakistani leadership during the Strategic Dialogue that the US wants continuation of Indo-Pak dialogue so that the two sides could amicably resolve their outstanding problems. 

Clinton made the remarks after Qureshi briefed her on the meeting between the Foreign Ministers of India and Pakistan here on July 15. 

"The secretary of state made it clear that the US is interested that the process between Pakistan and India should be sustained," a diplomatic source familiar with the discussions told PTI. 

Pak rakes up Kashmir issue with US - Pakistan - World - The Times of India


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## Ishan

I still do not understand Pakistan's Logic of Raising Kashmir Issue with US.

America Already made it Clear they will not interfere in Kashmir Issue and even they know that It cannot force up any issue on India ..


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## booo

mirwaiz doesnt represent the whole kashmir.

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## xyz

Asim Aquil said:


> Only Kashmiris have the right to decide their own future, they are demanding their rights. Grant them, or else they'll keep beating the crap out of your security forces.



They have right to decide their own future. 

but

NO one has given the right to deattach Kashmir as a Independent State and give it to Pakistan. Not Even UNO.


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## Spitfighter

Asim Aquil said:


> *Only Kashmiris have the right to decide their own future*, they are demanding their rights. Grant them, or else they'll keep beating the crap out of your security forces.



Ok then, this is between us and the Kashmiris. How come Pakistan can't stop itself from butting in at every given opportunity? What in gods name was Pakistan thinking in '47, '65 and '99?

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## LadyGaga

If one has to go by right to self determination as being the cause celebre for holding a referendum,then,not only India but china and pakistan would also be obligated to hold such referendums.Tibetans and Balochis want freedom too.What about Pakhtuns and the unresolved Durand line issue.
I think all of us need to get a reality check.The consequences of holding such referendums will be the birth of unviable countries,which do not have the geography,resources,political,or social structure to function as viable countries.
So the moot question is.Do we allow the creation of potentially unviable states in the name of self determination and lay the foundation for more trouble in the subcontinent or we move on with life and get stronger economically and start working for our people?


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## xyz

According Pakistan there exist Azaad Kashmir whose Capital is Muzaffarabad.

But what I do not Understand is, if it is really Azaad KAshmir then why the postal codes of its states( known as district, which is also objectionable) are as postal codes of other regions of Pakistan??
Pakistan Post Office Department

http://www.ajk.gov.*pk*/
why the governmental site of Azaad Kashmir is havig *pk* as the domain?

Why the international calling code is *0092*????
Neelum

and according to UNSC Resolution1172, the resolution should contain only Mutual talks and Dialogues between Both the countries.
UNSC has not pressurised for any referendum or plebiscite or ask the people gesture.


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## Awesome

xyz said:


> According Pakistan there exist Azaad Kashmir whose Capital is Muzaffarabad.
> 
> But what I do not Understand is, if it is really Azaad KAshmir then why the postal codes of its states( known as district, which is also objectionable) are as postal codes of other regions of Pakistan??
> Pakistan Post Office Department
> 
> http://www.ajk.gov.*pk*/
> why the governmental site of Azaad Kashmir is havig *pk* as the domain?
> 
> Why the international calling code is *0092*????
> Neelum
> 
> and according to UNSC Resolution1172, the resolution should contain only Mutual talks and Dialogues between Both the countries.
> UNSC has not pressurised for any referendum or plebiscite or ask the people gesture.


Why is Canada's Intl. Dialing Code +1 same as the United States?

Come forth with some ACTUAL argument. Pakistan has never pretended that AJK is independent in the sense of a free nation. However its given its rights to represent itself as a Free nation until the UN administered plebiscite takes place and they come to a decision on its actual status.


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## Awesome

Spitfighter said:


> Ok then, this is between us and the Kashmiris. How come Pakistan can't stop itself from butting in at every given opportunity? What in gods name was Pakistan thinking in '47, '65 and '99?


There is a strong possibility Kashmiris will choose Pakistan. We're also ensuring India doesn't subjugate the Kashmiris under it's tyranny. We support the Kashmiris.

Why does the US butt into Israeli affairs? Jewish lobby?

We also have a strong Kashmiri lobby, ever heard of Nawaz Sharif? He's a Kashmiri. The concept of Pakistan was laid down by a Kashmiri, Allama Iqbal. Kashmiris form a strong component of Pakistan's economy. We aren't there just to annoy you, we're fully committed to this fight.


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## Mogambo

Asim Aquil said:


> Why is Canada's Intl. Dialing Code +1 same as the United States?
> 
> Come forth with some ACTUAL argument. Pakistan has never pretended that AJK is independent in the sense of a free nation. However its given its rights to represent itself as a Free nation until the UN administered plebiscite takes place and they come to a decision on its actual status.



There is also china occupied Kashmir, why don't you protest that?????

It explains all.


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## Awesome

Mogambo said:


> There is also china occupied Kashmir, why don't you protest that?????
> 
> It explains all.


Why don't Kashmiris protest that?

Let the Kashmiris protest that, we'll join in then.


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## Iggy

Asim Aquil said:


> Why don't Kashmiris protest that?
> 
> *Let the Kashmiris protest that, we'll join in then.*



Are you sure about that??because some of the land was ceaded by you to Chinese..China wont be very happy


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## into the wild

for india whats the point for not conducting the referendum, its well and good for indians that in their point of view, most kashmiris do support india, so whats the problem, majority will side in the referendum and will prove once and for all that in the IOK kashmiris dont consider themselves occupied in india..

same stands for azad kashmir!!


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## xyz

Asim Aquil said:


> Why is Canada's Intl. Dialing Code +1 same as the United States?
> 
> Come forth with some ACTUAL argument. Pakistan has never pretended that AJK is independent in the sense of a free nation. However its given its rights to represent itself as a Free nation until the UN administered plebiscite takes place and they come to a decision on its actual status.




There is No UN Administrated Plebiscite!!!!!!
UNSC 1172 says, resolve your issue trhough dialogues including Kashmir.

Secondly, *you are not In Canada*, it's Pakistan and your Neighbour is India with whom you have fought 4 times. Your double standards are noticed here!


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## xyz

Asim Aquil said:


> Why don't Kashmiris protest that?
> 
> Let the Kashmiris protest that, we'll join in then.



DO NOT LIE!!!!!

Pakistan has given a Part of Kashmir to China theirselves, why will they protest.

just for 100 acres for Amarnath Yatra these separatist created issue and when pakistan gave whole 100sqkms to China then where were the saparatist, sitting on WC and shitting?????


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## SurvivoR

Only the GUN will decide the solution for Kashmir. No other way as the indians have proved on every occasion that they are not serious about listening to Pakistan or even the Kashmiris from the illegal indian occupied Kashmir. It keeps on the same old rote like a parrot... atoot ang atoot ang. 

However, Pakistan is in no way at present to snatch from the illegal occupational forces of the bully neighbor. that which rightfully belongs to her, so its gonna keep on going like this, until Pakistan gets its house in order first. You can't help anyone when you yourself are in need of help and right now Pakistan unfortunately has become a beggar state bcuz of the unimaginable corruption of our rulers. So, IMHO the status quo shall remain for sometime to come until either Imam Mehdi arrives and with his arrival brings a revolution in all the Muslim lands and eventually the whole world or till we correct ourselves, which again I don't see it coming any soon.

Sorry guys but thats the truth and oh yeah Kashmir never was nor will be an integral part of india, the best it could get is a Disputed Territory ruled over by india.


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## xyz

SurvivoR said:


> Only the GUN will decide the solution for Kashmir. No other way as the indians have proved on every occasion that they are not serious about listening to Pakistan or even the Kashmiris from the illegal indian occupied Kashmir. It keeps on the same old rote like a parrot... atoot ang atoot ang.
> 
> However, Pakistan is in no way at present to snatch from the illegal occupational forces of the bully neighbor. that which rightfully belongs to her, so its gonna keep on going like this, until Pakistan gets its house in order first. You can't help anyone when you yourself are in need of help and right now Pakistan unfortunately has become a beggar state bcuz of the unimaginable corruption of our rulers. So, IMHO the status quo shall remain for sometime to come until either Imam Mehdi arrives and with his arrival brings a revolution in all the Muslim lands and eventually the whole world or till we correct ourselves, which again I don't see it coming any soon.
> 
> Sorry guys but thats the truth and oh yeah Kashmir never was nor will be an integral part of india, the best it could get is a Disputed Territory ruled over by india.




sounds provokative but in our words this is terrorism.


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## SurvivoR

Hmm by your very definition you are yourself a terrorist.


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## Hulk

Ahh it took them 63 years to find out right way to fighting for independence at-least. I mean now they realize terrorism is not right way, thank God.


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## xyz

SurvivoR said:


> Hmm by your very definition you are yourself a terrorist.




the current situation is like Intrusion in Jammu & Kashmir from across the LOC from Pakistani land. 
stop sending your trained terrorists!


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## Hulk

Kashmir is full of religious bigots, and they do not know peaceful means of protest. Even for petty things they resort to stone pelting. I saw that when Amarnath land was given, they could have easily protested using peaceful means. That was the day I lost all respect for these people. What kind of people are these who pelt stone at innocent people and then talk about Human rights, when you kill others that ok, when you get killed in retaliation then talk about human rights. For human rights you have to be human first.

Why did you guys threw the Pandits out, why did you burnt their home. It is religious hatred, some people are so religiously driven that they just cannot tolerate that they are not in Muslim majority state.

Kashmiri's are also responsible for violence in Kashmir, if they behave well peace will prevail. They are choosing violence over peace, it's there choice.

As per freedom they can run a peaceful protest, if they do so, I will support them but first learn to be in peace.


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## SurvivoR

Stop with your bs first there is no terrorist from across the loc and there is no intrusion in the illegally occupied Kashmir. We know you hindus all too well, so your cry baby tactics won't work with us. The very fact that you live in a state of denial regarding the indian occupied state of Kashmir is the reason for all this mess.

And stop infiltrating our forum from indian land.


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## amit27

Kashmir = holy land for Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhist we will never give Kashmir to Pakistan


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## flyinfishjoe

SurvivoR said:


> Stop with your bs first there is no terrorist from across the loc and there is no intrusion in the illegally occupied Kashmir. We know you hindus all too well, so your cry baby tactics won't work with us. The very fact that you live in a state of denial regarding the indian occupied state of Kashmir is the reason for all this mess.
> 
> And stop infiltrating our forum from indian land.


Hindu, Hindu, Hindu. 

I guess some people just don't want to accept that India is a secular nation where all people have equal rights before the law. 

Also, its funny how Pakistanis selectively read the U.N. resolution. It clearly says that Pakistan must first vacate Kashmir before the referendum is to take place.
"1. As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State.

2. The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavour to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting.

3. Pending a final solution, the territory evacuated by the Pakistani troops will be administered by the local authorities under the surveillance of the commission. "


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## SurvivoR

As if we don't know already about your state of denial and ignorance or rather arrogance. Anyway, no use arguing about it over here on a cyber forum. Unfortunately, as I mentioned in one of my previous posts, only the gun can bring the inevitable solution to this 63 year old dispute, till then the status quo shall remain. Till then enjoy the illegal occupation in Kashmir.


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## Agnostic_Indian

SurvivoR said:


> Stop with your bs first there is no terrorist from across the loc and there is no intrusion in the illegally occupied Kashmir
> 
> The whole world knows that ISI and your army (unofficialy) sends infiltrators across INDIAN OCCUIPED PART OF kashmir.

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## amit27

Amarnath holy temple is in Kashmir u think we gonna hand it over to pakistan lol u must be on drugs i think.


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## Dash

Asim Aquil said:


> Only Kashmiris have the right to decide their own future, they are demanding their rights. Grant them, or else they'll keep beating the crap out of your security forces.


Excellent, I will tell the security forces then to fire at will....Sounds good.?

The whole point here is peaceful demonstation....Pelting stones will get bullets in return, after you will excercise law and order enforcement.


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## Spitfighter

Asim Aquil said:


> There is a strong possibility Kashmiris will choose Pakistan.



There's an even stronger possibility of a referendum never occurring simply because of Pakistan's 'commitment' to the Kashmiris. They have had to endure 25+ years of a brutal insurgency, Pakistan tried to take advantage of legitimate Kashmiri grievances and gave it a religious/political angle. 

I don't know what you've been told, but the Kashmiris have shown your 'liberators' the door on plenty of occasions, most notably '65 and '99. 



> *We're also ensuring India doesn't subjugate the Kashmiris under it's tyranny. We support the Kashmiris.*



Read above.

Pakistan is in no position to 'ensure' anything from India. We've seen the results of your 'support' both in Kashmir and in your own country. The only thing Pakistan is ensuring is another war. 



> Why does the US butt into Israeli affairs? Jewish lobby?



Please, lets not draw parallels with the states, especially one that is as flawed as your own. In the real world (where we're spared from utterly nonsensical Pakistani paranoia) we understand that everything isn't a 'conspiracy'. 

America is a *superpower*, they have interests all over the world and ultimately they do what's right for them. All this garbage about a secret, all powerful 'Jewish lobby' is just absolute BS. They didn't get to where they're at today by being stupid. 

Please, please stop with all these childish conspiracy theories already. America butt s in for America, Jewish lobby or not.



> We also have a strong Kashmiri lobby, ever heard of Nawaz Sharif? He's a Kashmiri.



Oh so let me guess, the Kashmiris have been lobbying for your support? Like they did in '65 and '99? 



> The concept of Pakistan was laid down by a Kashmiri, Allama Iqbal.


 
So? what's your point? Because of one Allama Iqbal you have some sort of inalienable bond with the rest of Kashmir? 



> *Kashmiris form a strong component of Pakistan's economy.* We aren't there just to annoy you, we're fully committed to this fight.



India is Dubai's largest trading partner, should we take over Dubai and name it Arab Pradesh? 

Buddy fighting will get you nowhere. We're still here aren't we?

There will never be a resolution until and unless Pakistan drops its policy of violent confrontation with India over Kashmir. Not today, not a million years from today, no matter how committed you are.

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## xyz

SurvivoR said:


> Stop with your bs first there is no terrorist from across the loc and there is no intrusion in the illegally occupied Kashmir. We know you hindus all too well, so your cry baby tactics won't work with us. The very fact that you live in a state of denial regarding the indian occupied state of Kashmir is the reason for all this mess.
> 
> And stop infiltrating our forum from indian land.


Nonsense! 

we also know your separatist who can shout for just 100 acres of land given for Amarnath Yatra and kept mum when you gave direct 100sqkm of land to China. Where were your so called separatist, Shitting on Atari station's railway line????


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## KS

Just to add to Spitfighter :



> The concept of Pakistan was laid down by a Kashmiri, Allama Iqbal.





> So? what's your point? Because of one Allama Iqbal you have some sort of inalienable bond with the rest of Kashmir?



U know Man mohan singh was from present day Pakistan and LK Advani was from Sindh...or for that matter Musharraf was from Delhi..so can we just start claiming Sindh and u guys Delhi..?

Ridiculous aint it..?

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## matti

indianrabbit said:


> Ahh it took them 63 years to find out right way to fighting for independence at-least. I mean now they realize terrorism is not right way, thank God.



Now, I hope your security forces realize that too, and stop killing innocent people.


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## Dash

matti said:


> Now, I hope your security forces realize that too, and stop killing innocent people.


Either you are a freedom fighter or you are innocent.....

you cant be both. You know what Iam saying???


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## Dance

Dash said:


> Either you are a freedom fighter or you are innocent.....
> 
> you cant be both. You know what Iam saying???



Bhagat Singh was considered a freedom fighter so does that mean he's terrorist and not innocent. Cause according to you can't be a freedom fighter and an innocent


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## S_O_C_O_M

*UK to play role to resolve Kashmir dispute, says Warsi ​*
* British minister says issues related to students seeking higher studies in UK being resolved 

MIRPUR: Head of the British ruling Conservative Party and cabinet minister in the government, Baroness Sayeeda Warsi, on Saturday called upon both India and Pakistan to initiate effective steps for an early and peaceful resolution of the Kashmir dispute.

The Pakistani-origin British minister was addressing a reception hosted by citizens of Mirpur in her honour. The ceremony was also addressed among others by the UK High Commissioner in Pakistan Adam Thomson, former prime minister of Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK) Sardar Attique Khan, PPP AJK Senior Vice President Muhammad Yasin, senior leader of the Peoples Muslim League Muhammad Arshad, Mirpur Comissioner Mahmoodul Hassan Raja, senior journalist Altaf Hamid Rao and Barrister Abid Hussain.

Earlier, Warsi was accorded a warm reception as she reached Mirpur on her first-ever visit to the city  the hometown of her in-laws. Her parents, husband Iftikhar Chaudhry, Rob 
Murphy, head of Strategic Communications at the UK High Commission, Martin Daltry, programme development manager of the British Council and other senior officials of the British High Commission were also present.

Warsi said Britain would play its due role to ensure an early resolution of the Kashmir dispute. She said her country was taking effective steps in connection with the resolution of the Kashmir conflict. 

She said that since over a million overseas Pakistanis, including about 700,000 Kashmiri expatriates, were serving in various sectors in the United Kingdom, the British government would extend due cooperation and assistance for the progress and prosperity of AJK through an exchange of cooperation in the education, health and social sectors. 

Warsi said issues related to AJK students seeking higher studies in the UK were being resolved. The British minister said the people of Pakistan and AJK, including UK-based expatriates, attached great hopes to her and she would try her best to meet their expectations. 

Addressing the gathering, British High Commissioner Adam Thomson said the UK was acting upon an integrated plan to promote friendship with Pakistan through an exchange of cooperation and assistance and by launching projects in various public welfare fields, including education and health. 

He said the projects would also help promote social interactions within the communities. 

The British high commissioner said such public welfare projects would help promote and strengthen better understanding between the students and academic staff of educational institutions in AJK and the UK, besides bringing both countries closer to each other.

Addressing the ceremony, top Kashmiri leaders, including Sardar Attique and Muhammad Yasin, called upon Britain to exert every possible pressure on India for the early resolution of the Kashmir dispute.

They paid tribute to Warsi for her meritorious services through, social, political and legal fields for the people in the UK. We are proud of this daughter of east who secured distinctions through her high intellect and pen in the social and political arena of the UK by securing the office of the British ruling Conservative Party, the speakers said.

They said Warsi was a role model for women and men alike. The people of Kashmir attach great hopes with Warsi vis-à-vis her role for an early peaceful settlement of the Kashmir issue in line with the resolutions of the United Nations, the speakers added. app

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Hindu minority homeless in Kashmir ​*
UPDATED ON:
Thursday, July 15, 2010 
10:42 Mecca time, 07:42 GMT 






Muslim separatist groups have been fighting Indian rule in Kashmir for two decades. New Delhi blames Pakistan for supporting them. Pakistan denies the claim.

Tens of thousands of people have been killed in the conflict.

In the lead-up to talks between the two countriesin Islamabad on Thursday, Al Jazeera takes a closer look at the Kashmir unrest.

Al Jazeera's Prerna Suri reports from Srinagar about the region's Hindu minority left homeless by years of violence.

Hindu minority homeless in Kashmir - CENTRAL/S. ASIA - Al Jazeera English


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## S_O_C_O_M

......................................


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## Devil Soul

You know what, i'm not in favor of evicting anyone from their homes just on the basis of religion and i'm also not in favor of Gov policy of forcefully settling outsiders ...

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

People who are residents have right to stay - can't evict anyone


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## KS

S_O_C_O_M said:


> These Pundits will never be able to go home. Its better they move to India's mainland and start a new life there rather than trying to go to a place where they are not wanted.



With all due respect can the same logic be extended to the Kashmiri muslims who can go to Pakistan and start a new life..?

How can u expect support from the Hindus of India for the Kashmiri cause if all u care abt is the muslims in the valley..?

*Pundits are as much kashmiri as any muslim.period.*

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## Jade

S_O_C_O_M said:


> These Pundits will never be able to go home. Its better they move to India's mainland and start a new life there rather than trying to go to a place where they are not wanted.



This is what is called double standards.

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## chachachoudhary

S_O_C_O_M said:


> These Pundits will never be able to go home. Its better they move to India's mainland and start a new life there rather than trying to go to a place where they are not wanted.



These pundits are the original inhabitants of Kashmir before the muslim invaders invaded indian subcontinent. So, Hindu pundits are true owners of Kashmir, muslims are in fact converts who were converted to islam by force several generations back.

Regarding kashmir pundits being homeless, they are being settled in the kashmir only.

New township being constructed for Kashmir pandits in Kashmir






Chief minister inspecting the work for Kashmiri pandit township in kashmir





So, those who do not want to live in india, they can permanently leave kashmir and head to azad kashmir across the border.

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## dabong1

chachachoudhary said:


> These pundits are the original inhabitants of Kashmir before the muslim invaders invaded indian subcontinent. So, Hindu pundits are true owners of Kashmir, muslims are in fact converts who were converted to islam by force several generations back.



Get your facts right.......if we wanted to force people into islam dont you think we would have converted all the hindus in india during the reign of the muslims?
The kashmiris that converted where all living there and where hindus.......so the logic becauce they converted they cant be kashmiri is stupid.




chachachoudhary said:


> So, those who do not want to live in india, they can permanently leave kashmir and head to azad kashmir across the border.



Better if you leave kashmir to the kashmris and go back to india where you came from........where not indian and will never be indian.


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## dabong1

S_O_C_O_M said:


> These Pundits will never be able to go home. Its better they move to India's mainland and start a new life there rather than trying to go to a place where they are not wanted.



Have to disagree.......the pandits are our brothers and have just as much right as muslim-buddhist-sikh kashmiris to live in there own land.


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## Jade

dabong1 said:


> Have to disagree.......the pandits are our brothers and have just as much right as muslim-buddhist-sikh kashmiris to live in there own land.



Cannot agree with you more




dabong1 said:


> Get your facts right.......if we wanted to force people into islam dont you think we would have converted all the hindus in india during the reign of the muslims?
> The kashmiris that converted where all living there and where hindus.......so the logic becauce they converted they cant be kashmiri is stupid.



Nowhere did he imply that converted can&#8217;t be Kashmiries





dabong1 said:


> Better if you leave kashmir to the kashmris and go back to india where you came from........where not indian and will never be indian.



In India, every state is ruled by its own governments, which are democratically elected. Kashmir is no different. Like many countries, India is not defined by particular language, ethnicity or race.

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## EjazR

The Kashmiri pundits migrated towards Jammu only because Pakistani based militants started tragetting them. Otherwise velly Kashmirs have no problems with the Pandits who share the same ancestry, culture, language and lifestyle. Infact even in the recent protests no Yatri to the Amarnath shrine was hurt and even the sepratists welcomed Hindu pilgrims in the valley to visit Amarnath shrine.

As a Kashmiri muslim friend of mine says, Kashmiryat is incomplete without the Pandits.

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## chachachoudhary

> dabong1;1008284]Get your facts right.......if we wanted to force people into islam dont you think we would have converted all the hindus in india during the reign of the muslims?



Get your own facts right. Remember names like Maharana Pratap, chatrapati Shivaji, Bajirao Peshwa. These people protected indian hindus to a great extent. Muslim invaders tried their best to convert, to destroy hindu temples, but Hindus were not wearing bangles and stood their ground. However, some unfortunate people living in remote places could not be protected.

However, after donating a piece of land to muslims who wanted a seperate country in 1947, which they named something like "pakistan", nobody can disown any part of present india to hindus anywhere in india. 



> Better if you leave kashmir to the kashmris and go back to india where you came from........where not indian and will never be indian.



Kashmir belongs to india and every indian and by this logic I am a Kashmiri and I will see to it that every insect entering into india illegally will be immediately sent to where he belongs, hell.


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## chachachoudhary

Ha ha ha, did you notice how the pakistani posters quickly changed their post contents (SOCOM, AZADPAKISTAN.)

Good they realized their mistakes.


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## Je suis de retour

dabong1 said:


> Get your facts right.......if we wanted to force people into islam dont you think we would have converted all the hindus in india during the reign of the muslims?
> The kashmiris that converted where all living there and where hindus.......so the logic becauce they converted they cant be kashmiri is stupid.
> .


Sir with all respect must say, what you are providing is LOGIC not a FACT.
FACT is that mughal rule was famous for brutality and forcefull mass conversion of Hindus ( in millions ).
So GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT.
Making 3000 posts on forum doesnt make a man a learned one.

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## S_O_C_O_M

Je suis de retour said:


> Sir with all respect must say, what you are providing is LOGIC not a FACT.
> FACT is that mughal rule was famous for brutality and forcefull mass conversion of Hindus ( in millions ).
> So GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT.
> Making 3000 posts on forum doesnt make a man a learned one.



Pakistan including parts of Kashmir were apart of the second Islamic Caliphate. Current Pakistani territory has always been since the inception of Islam a majority Musilm area. The Mughals who forced conversion of Hindus were mostly in present day Indian territory.


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## Je suis de retour

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Pakistan including parts of Kashmir were apart of the second Islamic Caliphate. Current Pakistani territory has always been since the inception of Islam a majority Musilm area. The Mughals who forced conversion of Hindus were mostly in present day Indian territory.


So you accept that those MUSLIMS who migrated to pakistan after 1947 were once HINDU.


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## dabong1

chachachoudhary said:


> Get your own facts right. Remember names like Maharana Pratap, chatrapati Shivaji, Bajirao Peshwa. These people protected indian hindus to a great extent. Muslim invaders tried their best to convert, to destroy hindu temples, but Hindus were not wearing bangles and stood their ground.



So thats why the muslims ruled india for a thousand years.



chachachoudhary said:


> However, some unfortunate people living in remote places could not be protected.



The areas you could not "protect" was the whole of india.



chachachoudhary said:


> However, after donating a piece of land to muslims who wanted a seperate country in 1947, which they named something like "pakistan", nobody can disown any part of present india to hindus anywhere in india.



You did not donate anything....we took it!



chachachoudhary said:


> Kashmir belongs to india and every indian and by this logic I am a Kashmiri and I will see to it that every insect entering into india illegally will be immediately sent to where he belongs, hell.



The only insect entering kashmir is the indian occupation forces.


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## dabong1

Je suis de retour said:


> So you accept that those MUSLIMS who migrated to pakistan after 1947 were once HINDU.



Off course we do.......like christians where jews and pagan romans before the became christians.

And the people that became muslims where not just hindus but buddhist also........what was left of the buddhist anyway after the mass killing by hindu kings.


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## dabong1

Je suis de retour said:


> Sir with all respect must say, what you are providing is LOGIC not a FACT.
> FACT is that mughal rule was famous for brutality and forcefull mass conversion of Hindus ( in millions ).
> So GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT.
> Making 3000 posts on forum doesnt make a man a learned one.



Just show your total lack of knowledge about islam.......you cant be forced into islam.........simple logic says the muslims ruled for a long time in india and if they wanted they could have forced every hindu to accept islam but they did not.....thats why there still hindus in india.

I hope you know that hindus where involved and held high postions in the mughal empire.


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## indushek

dabong1 said:


> Just show your total lack of knowledge about islam.......you cant be forced into islam.........simple logic says the muslims ruled for a long time in india and if they wanted they could have forced every hindu to accept islam but they did not.....thats why there still hindus in india.
> 
> I hope you know that hindus where involved and held high postions in the mughal empire.



Your posts themselves show the religious bigot u are, just because a people of certain religion ruled the part u still want them to be in rule , so that u can call them dhimmis , get them arrested under laws by which no proof is required by saying they abused ur religion and after converting them say that nobody can be converted forcefully.

The thing is people like u hate India because u think that Hindus who were under ur rule have broken free and u want to bring the long last kingdom back. But ur wet dreams will never be fullfilled . I am sick of this 1000 year rule boast every time to satisfy oneself's prejudice and racist ideology. Just try to do what ur so called glorified crusaders did now, u will join them even before u know.

Thank god Muslims of this country don't think like u, i can go on to say they are the best in the world. But people like u

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## chachachoudhary

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Pakistan including parts of Kashmir were apart of the second Islamic Caliphate. Current Pakistani territory has always been since the inception of Islam a majority Musilm area. The Mughals who forced conversion of Hindus were mostly in present day Indian territory.



This is the Hindu etymology for Kashmir.

The Nilamata Purana describes the Valleys origin from the waters; &#2325;&#2366; Ka (water) + &#2358;&#2367;&#2350;&#2367;&#2352;&#2367; Shimir (to desiccate), hence, Kaashmir denotes a land desiccated from water. An alternate nominal origin theory proposes that Kaashmir is a contraction of either Kashyap-mira or Kashyapmir or Kashyapmeru, denoting the sea of Kashyapa and the mountain of Kashyapa, eponyms of Kashyapa, the sage credited with having drained the primordial Satisar lake that occupied the Kaashmir valley before he reclaimed it from the water. Considering the Valley an embodiment of the goddess Uma, the Nilamata Purana gives it the place-name Kaashmira, from which derives the contemporary Kashmir place-name. Nonetheless, the Kaashmiris colloquially use the place-name Kashir, which is phonetically derived from Kaashmir, as noted in the Aurel Stein introduction to the Rajatarangini metrical chronicle.

By the way, I would like to know the meaning of word "Kashmir" and 'Himalaya" in islam.

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## chachachoudhary

I will request a Pakistani poster to give a brief history going as far back as possible of Pakistani city Peshawar.

PS: I do not want to hurt the sentiments of Indian muslims who are as dear to me as any of hindus. I am of the opinion that no community in india should be blamed for what happened hundreds and thousands of years ago. I consider today's indian muslims a part of nationhood called India and way of life called Hindu. If any of my posts have hurt the sentiments of any of Indian muslim, I apologise with folded hands.


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## Nahraf

Je suis de retour said:


> So you accept that those MUSLIMS who migrated to pakistan after 1947 were once HINDU



The non-Muslim converted to Islam in South Asia since 7th century. They may have followed any myriad of religions and cults that existed in South Asia at that time. All Muslim that migrated to Pakistan were Muslims for many centuries. Hinduism is amalgamation of religions and cults that existed in South Asia before and after the invasion Vedic Aryans from Eurasia. There were also millions of homeless Kashmiri Muslims in Pakistan that escaped Indian invasion of Kashmir.


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## chachachoudhary

*Kashmiri Pandits and Guru Teg Bahadur*

The Delhi Emperor, Aurangzeb cherished the ambition of converting India into a land of Islam. This philosophy was also pleaded by Shaikh Ahmad Sirhindi (15691624), leader of the Naqashbandi School, to counter the liberal policies of Akbar's reign.

According to Sikh tradition, the Emperor's experiment was first carried out in Kashmir. The viceroy of Kashmir, Iftikar Khan (16711675) carried out the policy vigorously and set about converting non-Muslims by force[2][3].

A group of Kashmiri Pandits (Kashmiri Hindu Brahmins), Sikh tradition narrates, approached Guru Tegh Bahadur and asked for help. They, on the advice of the Guru, told the Mughal authorities that they would willingly embrace Islam if Guru Tegh Bahadur, did the same[2][3].

Orders of the arrest of the Guru were issued by Aurangzeb, who was in present day North West Frontier Province of Pakistan subduing Pushtun rebellion. The Guru was arrested at a place called Malikhpur near Anandpur after he had departed from Anandpur for Delhi. Before departing he nominated his son, Gobind Rai (Guru Gobind Singh) as the next Sikh Guru.

He was arrested, along with some of his followers, Bhai Dayala, Bhai Mati Das and Bhai Sati Das by Nur Muhammad Khan of the Rupnagar police post at the village Malikhpur Rangharan, in Ghanaula Parganah, and sent to Sirhind the following day. The Faujdar (Governor) of Sirhind, Dilawar Khan, ordered him to be detained in Bassi Pathana and reported the news to Delhi. His arrest was made in July 1675 and he was kept in custody for over three months. He was then cast in an iron cage and taken to Delhi in November 1675.

The Guru was put in chains and ordered to be tortured until he would accept Islam. When he could not be persuaded to abandon his faith to save himself from persecution, he was asked to perform some miracles to prove his divinity. On his refusal, Guru Tegh Bahadur was beheaded in public at Chandni Chowk on 11 November 1675. Guru Ji is also known as "Hind Di Chadar" i.e. "the shield of India", suggesting that *to save Hinduism, Guru Ji gave his life.*

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## KS

dabong1 said:


> So thats why the muslims ruled india for a thousand years.
> 
> The areas you could not "protect" was the whole of india.
> 
> You did not donate anything....we took it!
> 
> The only insect entering kashmir is the indian occupation forces.



Let me try to put the 1000 year crap in perspective....

*it is more due to the disunity among the hindu kings and the not-so-present loyalty (Rajputs aligning with Mughals) that u were able to rule for the so called 1000 years.* and *not so much due to the bravery of the Muslim kings.*

If they had been united like the invaders were u wouldn be able to do shyt.

remember how much the Marathas and the Sikhs kicked the rear end of the mighty Mughals.??

And the Muslim hordes with all their armies couldn do jack in South India especially Tamil Nadu and Kerala and in the North East India were the Hindu Ahoms again repeatedly defeated the mughals.



dabong1 said:


> And the people that became muslims where not just hindus but buddhist also........what was left of the buddhist anyway after the *mass killing by hindu kings*.



Eh..? before the invading Muslim kings came pillaging and killing innocents no religion related war ever happened on this beautiful land.

If hindus had that mas-killing tendency that was prevalent among the Christian and Islamic kings then there wouldn be much Christians,Muslims left in India wich has a 80 &#37; Hindu majority.

P.S.: we r going woefully off topic.Since i ve clarified,Shall we get back on track..?

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## notsuperstitious

dabong1 said:


> Off course we do.......like christians where jews and pagan romans before the became christians.
> 
> And the people that became muslims where not just hindus but buddhist also........what was left of the buddhist anyway after the mass killing by hindu kings.



You are probably referring to that Hindu bigot Bakhtiyar Khilji and the destruction of Nalanda, those damn buddhists who stole our Ashoka had it coming!

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## Iggy

fateh71 said:


> You are probably referring to that Hindu bigot Bakhtiyar Khilji and the destruction of Nalanda, *those damn buddhists who stole our Ashoka had it coming!*



Fateh you just made mass killing a joke ,but cant help laughing ..


Bakhtiyar Khilji was the reason for the decline of Budhism in India...But he is Muslim not Hindu ...dabong please do some research before posting ..

Or is that sarcasm?? .sorry if it is


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## Nahraf

fateh71 said:


> You are probably referring to that Hindu bigot Bakhtiyar Khilji and the destruction of Nalanda, those damn buddhists who stole our Ashoka had it coming!



The decline of Buddhism in South Asia occurred long before Muslim arrival. The militant Hinduism has already dealt a death blow to Buddhism and were persecuting Buddhists when Muslim arrived in South Asia. Many Buddhists sided with Muslims and converted to Islam. According to many historians, Bakhtiyar Khilji did not get reports that identified Nalanda fortifications as Buddhist monastery. Bakhtiyar Khilji in short time conquered eastern Uttar Pradesh, Bihar and Bengal. Bakhtiyar Khilji was one of the most brilliant generals.

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## EjazR

A thread that should havebeen about saying how wrong it was for this to happen and appreciate the suggering of the Kashmiri people both Hindu and Muslim has turned into a bigotted competition about "history" if one can even call that.

The point is whats happening now.

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## notsuperstitious

dabong1 said:


> Get your facts right.......if we wanted to force people into islam dont you think we would have converted all the hindus in india during the reign of the muslims?



This is the logic used by hardcore bigots to whitewash the black deeds of likeminded bigots from the past. Unfortunately, those bigots from the past wrote glowing accounts of their deeds in their own court documents.

About the Kashmir pundits and their plight, its nothing new, it started thanks to sirhindi, auragngzeb and their goon iftikhar khan in kashmir, it resulted in the martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadur, the 9th Guru of the Sikhs.

The Hindus and Sikhs DID retaliate when efforts were made to spread 'peace' 'peacefully' and the the decline of the mughal empire is history.

You probably think mughal empire collapsed because trecherous hindus sold themselves to British  I know your type and your polemics

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## vsdoc

Karthic Sri said:


> Eh..? before *u muslims* came pillaging and killing innocents no religion related war ever happened on this beautiful land.



Bro, please do not say "u muslims" ..... we have many million muslims of our own living in peace as loyal Indians. By choice. As brothers.

Without going into the gentic identity of the Pakistani "race" and how close if at all they really are to those muslim invaders of many centuries ago, whose flag they continue to fly vigorously and enthusiastically, the fact remains that a thriving multi-cultural multi-religion secular India today is more than enough of a slap in the face of such pseudo-supremacists.

I call this syndrome "Greatness by Proxy." Let us just smile and move on.

Cheers, Doc

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## Mirza Jatt

dabong1 said:


> Just show your total lack of knowledge about islam.......*you cant be forced into islam.........simple logic says the muslims ruled for a long time in india and if they wanted they could have forced every hindu to accept islam but they did not.....thats why there still hindus in india.*
> 
> I hope you know that hindus where involved and held high postions in the mughal empire.



are you trying to prove yourself a professor in Indian history ??

probably you did not read the Muslims attrocities on Sikhs to *forcibly*..mind it foricbly convert them to muslims..and when they failed in doing so..the sikhs were killed,mercilessly..just search and learn about sikh history...thousands of sikhs were butchered by Mughals just to forcibly convert them to Islam.

P.S - this is not to hurt any sentiments of our Indian muslims..I am just talking about Mughals, as claimed by the poster that they did not try to use force to convert everyone by force.

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## xyz

chachachoudhary said:


> These pundits are the original inhabitants of Kashmir before the muslim invaders invaded indian subcontinent. So, Hindu pundits are true owners of Kashmir, muslims are in fact converts who were converted to islam by force several generations back.
> 
> Regarding kashmir pundits being homeless, they are being settled in the kashmir only.
> 
> New township being constructed for Kashmir pandits in Kashmir
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chief minister inspecting the work for Kashmiri pandit township in kashmir
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, those who do not want to live in india, they can permanently leave kashmir and head to *azad kashmir* across the border.



why even Azaad Kashmir, its a Pakistani Occupied Indian Land, If they want to go, go to Pakistan!!! Don't remain in Kashmir and whole of the India at all.

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## KS

vsdoc said:


> Bro, *please do not say "u muslims"* ..... we have many million muslims of our own living in peace as loyal Indians. By choice. As brothers.



true words..so edited my post. And apologies if I have hurt some one feelings

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## EjazR

*Over 1 lakh pilgrims at Amarnath so far*

* A total of 141,232 Hindu pilgrims have so far paid obeisance at the holy Amarnath Cave in Jammu and Kashmir, Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) officials said here Monday.*

'Today (Monday) 5,620 yatris (pilgrims) comprising 3,907 men, 1,344 women, 355 children and 14 sadhus left from Nunwan-Phalgam while 3,841, comprising 2,306 men, 1,158 women, 190 children and 187 sadhus left from Baltal base camps for the Amarnath Cave,' the officials said.

The two-month long annual pilgrimage to the shrine, situated at 13,500 feet above the sea-level in south Kashmir's Anantnag district started here July 1 and will end Aug 25, coinciding with the Raksha Bandhan festival.

*Despite the present crisis in the Kashmir Valley, locals are cooperating fully in the conduct of the pilgrimage and lending all help to the pilgrims who come here from different parts of the country. *

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## xyz

Nahraf said:


> The non-Muslim converted to Islam in South Asia since 7th century. They may have followed any myriad of religions and cults that existed in South Asia at that time. All Muslim that migrated to Pakistan were Muslims for many centuries. Hinduism is amalgamation of religions and cults that existed in South Asia before and after the invasion Vedic Aryans from Eurasia. There were also millions of homeless Kashmiri Muslims in Pakistan that escaped Indian invasion of Kashmir.



Aryan is a sanskrit word which means noble irrespective of class, colour, country and race. The only invasion was the invasion of Alexander the Great which was also blocked at Taxila by Mauryans. 


Vedic knowledge has its origin in Indian Subcontinent. later Europeans learnt it at Taxila because there was a centralised government of Bharat(Chandragupta Maura) and Greeks(selucus 1).

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## riju78

Great news for humanity. Peace for all jai hind

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## KS

EjazR said:


> *Despite the present crisis in the Kashmir Valley, locals are cooperating fully in the conduct of the pilgrimage and lending all help to the pilgrims who come here from different parts of the country. *



I have always maintained that the locals..atleast a *silent majority are truly secular and just want to go on with their day to day lives caring for themselves and their family*.

It is only these paid miscreants who are on the payroll of their foreign masters,have a vested interest in keeping things on the boil.

Hope the silent majority soon has its voice heard above the barking of the separatists.

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## amit27

Hope now this congress anti-hindu party gives the land to the shrine board.

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## Tshering22

amit27 said:


> Hope now this congress anti-hindu party gives the land to the shrine board.


Congress isn't very cooperative with Buddhists either. For example, I am a Vajrayana Buddhist by belief and by our sect, most of our texts revere mainstream Hinduism. 

Most Congress politicians in the northeast claim to help Buddhists but don't do anything in reality when it comes to stopping illegal immigrants who are violent or foreign missionaries who demonize our peaceful faith.

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## amit27

Tshering22 said:


> Congress isn't very cooperative with Buddhists either. For example, I am a Vajrayana Buddhist by belief and by our sect, most of our texts revere mainstream Hinduism.
> 
> Most Congress politicians in the northeast claim to help Buddhists but don't do anything in reality when it comes to stopping illegal immigrants who are violent or foreign missionaries who demonize our peaceful faith.




This is expected from a sick party like congress who named a nuclear bomb after Lord Buddah. When election comes they make false promises but as soon as congress won it was back to square 1, im so glad Baba Ramdev is making a polictical party he cant be tainted with corruption at least.

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## indushek

@Tshering22 and @Amit27

I have to agree with u brothers but let us not discuss this on a Intl forum shall we. Its like washing our dirty linen in public bro's. And for the record i too hate this ******* Congress govt i would love to see BJP back.

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## amit27

indushek said:


> @Tshering22 and @Amit27
> 
> I have to agree with u brothers but let us not discuss this on a Intl forum shall we. Its like washing our dirty linen in public bro's. And for the record i too hate this ******* Congress govt i would love to see BJP back.




I agree  it dont help our cause

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## KS

indushek said:


> i would love to see BJP back.



Ameen to that.....

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## kashith

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> For the uninformed murakhs ....
> 
> The Amarnath caves (Hindi: &#2309;&#2350;&#2352;&#2344;&#2366;&#2341; &#2327;&#2369;&#2347;&#2366;, Urdu: &#1575;&#1605;&#1585;&#1606;&#1575;&#1578;&#1726; &#1711;&#1615;&#1662;&#1726;&#1575 are one of the most famous shrines in Hinduism, dedicated to the god Shiva, located in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir. The shrine is claimed to be over 5,000 years old and forms an important part of Hindu mythology.
> 
> Inside the main Amarnath cave lies an *ice stalagmite* resembling the Shiva Linga, which waxes during May to August and gradually wanes thereafter. This lingam is said to grow and shrink with the phases of the moon, reaching its height during the summer festival.[According to Hindu mythology, this is the cave where Shiva explained the secret of life and eternity to his divine consort Parvati. Two other ice formations represent Parvati and Shiva's son, Ganesha.
> 
> The cave is situated at an altitude of 3,888 m (12,756 ft), about 141 km (88 mi) from Srinagar, the capital of Jammu and Kashmir. The Central Reserve Police Force, Indian Army and Indian Paramilitary Forces maintain a strong presence in the region due to security concerns.
> 
> oh boy ~~~~ another twist
> 
> I need to drink my ice stalagmite water to cool down its quite hot in here



How dare you make fun of another religion?Mods please remove the objectionable post


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## amit27

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> For the uninformed murakhs ....
> 
> The Amarnath caves (Hindi: &#2309;&#2350;&#2352;&#2344;&#2366;&#2341; &#2327;&#2369;&#2347;&#2366;, Urdu: &#1575;&#1605;&#1585;&#1606;&#1575;&#1578;&#1726; &#1711;&#1615;&#1662;&#1726;&#1575 are one of the most famous shrines in Hinduism, dedicated to the god Shiva, located in the Indian state of *Jammu and Kashmir* ....ah strategic weak point . The shrine is claimed to be over 5,000 years old and forms an important part of Hindu mythology.
> 
> Inside the main Amarnath cave lies an *ice stalagmite* resembling the Shiva Linga, which waxes during May to August and gradually wanes thereafter. This lingam is said to grow and shrink with the phases of the moon, reaching its height during the summer festival.[According to Hindu mythology, this is the cave where Shiva explained the secret of life and eternity to his divine consort Parvati. Two other ice formations represent Parvati and Shiva's son, Ganesha.
> 
> The cave is situated at an altitude of 3,888 m (12,756 ft), about 141 km (88 mi) from Srinagar, the capital of Jammu and Kashmir. The Central Reserve Police Force, Indian Army and Indian Paramilitary Forces maintain a strong presence in the region due to security concerns.
> 
> oh boy ~~~~ another twist
> 
> I need to drink my ice stalagmite water to cool down its quite hot in here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any how informative ..stuff learnd something new
> 
> I wonder if pilgirims reach 1-2 million then India can claim Jammu Kashmir as a religious site and right to own ...ah... nice tactic





Well Kashmir is a holy land for Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhist but at present moment the Indian goverment does not let Indians buy land in Kashmir even though this is against the constitution but God willing this will change in the future.

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## dabong1

indushek said:


> Your posts themselves show the religious bigot u are, just because a people of certain religion ruled the part u still want them to be in rule ,
> The thing is people like u hate India because u think that Hindus who were under ur rule have broken free and u want to bring the long last kingdom back. But ur wet dreams will never be fullfilled . I am sick of this 1000 year rule boast every time to satisfy oneself's prejudice and racist ideology. Just try to do what ur so called glorified crusaders did now, u will join them even before u know.



Do tell where i said i want the muslims to rule india and put down the "evil" hindu.




indushek said:


> so that u can call them dhimmis , get them arrested under laws by which no proof is required by saying they abused ur religion and after converting them say that nobody can be converted forcefully.



.....pathetic
Years and years of that bollywood-indian media propaganda seems to have taken its toll.


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## Nahraf

xyz said:


> Vedic knowledge has its origin in Indian Subcontinent. later Europeans learnt it at Taxila because there was a centralised government of Bharat(Chandragupta Maura) and Greeks(selucus 1).



According to Urheimat hypothesis, the homeland Aryans was in Ukraine from where they migrated and settled in Europe, Middle East and South Asia. The Hindu high caste allegations of South Asia as Aryan homeland is based on fear that Dravidians and tribal groups will regard Aryans as alien invaders. Archaeology and in most case Genealogy may increase our knowledge over the years.


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## RobbieS

Nahraf said:


> According to Urheimat hypothesis, the homeland Aryans was in Ukraine from where they migrated and settled in Europe, Middle East and South Asia. The Hindu high caste allegations of South Asia as Aryan homeland is based on fear that Dravidians and tribal groups will regard Aryans as alien invaders. Archaeology and in most case Genealogy may increase our knowledge over the years.



Nahraf, countless theories abound wrt Aryan origin. The truth is that its not certain. The earliest Aryan records, the Vedas, do not contain any mention of Aryan physical or racial characterstics. They allude to their origins in vague terms, quoting rivers and mountains; things whose names have undergone changes over-time. All the Vedas and the Puranas contain are their rituals, daily life, hymns and poems. There is no definite way of saying what their point of origin was.

If you are interested in Aryan and Indian history I'd suggest you try and get hold of Romila Thapar's books. She is the pre-eminent authority of ancient sub-continental history.


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## amit27

Nahraf said:


> According to Urheimat hypothesis, the homeland Aryans was in Ukraine from where they migrated and settled in Europe, Middle East and South Asia. The Hindu high caste allegations of South Asia as Aryan homeland is based on fear that Dravidians and tribal groups will regard Aryans as alien invaders. Archaeology and in most case Genealogy may increase our knowledge over the years.



No your totally wrong there was no Aryan invasion of India, the word aryan is derived from the sanskrit word arya meaning noble. 

I suggest you watch 'The Story of India' by Michael Wood historian he goes into detail on this.


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## S_O_C_O_M

chachachoudhary said:


> . I consider today's indian muslims a part of nationhood called India and *way of life called Hindu. *



So long for secular India.


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## KS

S_O_C_O_M said:


> So long for secular India.



Leav it ....u wont understand it.


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## civfanatic

Once again Kashmir erupts in violence, and the government's decision to involve the Army is widely seen as having affected the peace process.

NISSAR AHMAD

Protesters throw stonesat the police in Srinagar on June 29.

EVERYTHING was going well for Kashmir Valley this year economically. The summer tourist season witnessed a boom. With all the rooms in hotels and the houseboats on the Dal lake full, the year was set to surpass all previous records in tourist arrival. Then came the violent unrest, as in the two previous prosperous summers. This time the valley erupted over the killing of a schoolboy by a teargas shell fired by the police in Srinagar on June 11 during street protests. Since then seven other Kashmiri youth have been killed, and the unrest has been spreading to more towns in the valley.

There is a clear link between the current upheaval and what happened in the two preceding years. In 2008, the region saw much disturbance for over two months over the specific issue of allotment of forest land to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board. The following year, the alleged rape and murder of two women in Shopian saw the valley burn.

In fact, even after the current turmoil began, there was no significant decline in the tourist rush. But when the State government decided to call out the Army as a last resort to restore normalcy, the hopes of having a normal tourist season were dashed.

Why is Kashmir on fire again is the question on everyone's lips, but there is no satisfactory answer that can assuage the feelings of both the sides  the agitators and the government. Of course, the mishandling of the law and order situation by the Omar Abdullah government is one of the reasons for the anger in the valley.

According to Omar's opponents, he finds little time to address the problems in Kashmir. His hard posturing in defence of the Central Reserve Police Force (too much of antagonism against the CRPF will be of no use as it will only disrupt the law and order situation in the State) and the police, at a time when more and more civilian killings were reported, aggravated the situation. Making a fresh appeal for peace, the Chief Minister insisted that Kashmir was a political issue and needed a political solution. But apparently it came too late as pro-freedom and anti-India slogans were getting louder.

The absence of a genuine political initiative on the ground has given a fillip to the trouble, and this has been used as an opportunity by the hardliners in the separatist camp to revive their strategy. In a way, they have been running a parallel government. It is not completely true that the fear of militants being behind the hardliners makes them relevant. Moderates such as Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Mohammad Yasin Malik have been further marginalised by the way the hardline group led by Syed Ali Geelani has used the turf to achieve its political ambitions. A low-rung functionary of the Geelani group is calling the shots, and the entire State machinery has gone into overdrive to arrest him. When the violence broke out, even mainstream politicians chose to stay indoors, fearing reprisal from unruly mobs. Mainstream politicians have been marginalised. We feel cornered. Our leaders can't go out. People call us Hindustani kutte [Indian dogs], said People's Democratic Party president Mehbooba Mufti.

The situation in Kashmir has always been fragile, but policymaking in New Delhi, which has remained one track, has only helped to aggravate it further. The Centre has disconnected itself from the ground reality in Kashmir and listens more to the experts sitting in the Delhi studios of various television channels. It may be true that those taking the law into their own hands do not constitute a major section of society, but their proliferation has put both the State and Central governments on the back foot.

The government's response to the initial trouble, which began on June 11, was devoid of any strategy. It failed to notice the burning anger among the youth. On June 11, Tufail Matto, 17, was killed in a police action in downtown Srinagar when he was supposedly returning from a tuition class. The original spark that ignited the public anger actually came from a fake encounter in the Machil sector of Kupwara district. In the mayhem that followed, 15 civilians, all of them in the age group of nine to 25, fell to the bullets of the CRPF and the police. The government had, apparently, decided to adopt an iron hand method to restore normalcy.

Confidence eroded

The past 14 years have seen massive development and creation of employment opportunities in Kashmir with a large number of schemes touching ground. The Prime Minister's Reconstruction Plan made the construction of vital roads possible. On the face of it, the problem should have been resolved if the alienation element was linked to misgovernance or lack of development. But the recurring change in the situation shows that the unrest is linked to political issues rather than the demand for development.

Since 2006-07, Kashmir's political landscape has gone through enormous changes with confidence-building measures between Jammu and Kashmir and the ***************** territory and improvement in the relations between India and Pakistan. This created an optimism that something was happening to resolve the Kashmir tangle. There was political stability during those years as people connected themselves with that rapprochement, which had been initiated by Prime Minister A.B. Vajpayee and Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf, who had emerged as leading lights of the process for peace and reconciliation. People devoted themselves to routine work in the hope that New Delhi and Islamabad were working on a solution.

But as the initiatives between Srinagar and New Delhi and the confidence-building measures reached a deadlock, the confidence that the people of Kashmir had gained in the process was eroded.

Sheikh Showkat, Professor of Law at Kashmir University, sees the unrest as the fallout of unproductive processes. Even Mirwaiz and other moderates were Geelanised as they felt irrelevant in this situation, he said.

That became evident on July 7, when Mirwaiz threatened that the new generation was ready to take on India. The baton of the freedom struggle has now been passed on to the next generation who, by sacrificing their precious lives, has reinforced the universally accepted fact that it might be possible to annihilate the body by killing it but no power on earth can subjugate the yearnings of a nation for freedom, he told Frontline.

Experts say that the Army's deployment can defeat the efforts of the Omar Abdullah government to restore normalcy. Amid demands for the revocation of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act and the thinning of troops, calling the Army out on the streets is bound to worsen the situation. What after the Army is withdrawn? is a question being asked in Kashmir.



The last line of defence has been used, if it fails to put a break on the protests, who will control it? asks Bashir Manzar, a senior journalist and editor. Even former Army chief V.P. Malik opposed the decision to call out the Army. The Army is not meant for riot policing but for defending the country and fighting insurgency, he told a news channel.

By all accounts, the coming days will be crucial for Kashmir. A drastic change in New Delhi's policy towards Kashmir has become all the more inevitable now.

Valley of unrest


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## Agnostic_Indian

Withdrawing army will help terrorists.govt should create more developement and job opportunities.


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## replyme

Please note that this yatra is being carried out since last hundreds of years. Even before birth of Pakistan & ISLAM.


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## amoverlord

indians 1000 saal purani bato ko leke mat laro......present aur future dekho.....juban pe lagam rakho.....waise bhi bak bak karke koi faida nahi cause samnewala UNABLE to understand hai.


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## xyz

well 
Pakistanis, its a simple advise for you, don't look at our Kashmir.


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## amoverlord

abbey history ke professero chup ho jao....
......aur topic pe aao...


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## xyz

Nahraf said:


> According to Urheimat hypothesis, the homeland Aryans was in Ukraine from where they migrated and settled in Europe, Middle East and South Asia. The Hindu high caste allegations of South Asia as Aryan homeland is based on fear that Dravidians and tribal groups will regard Aryans as alien invaders. Archaeology and in most case Genealogy may increase our knowledge over the years.



First of all Vedas do not teach caste system. 
secondly, its a very complicated debate for you you will not understand it, because its somehow connected to Hinduism for you and common facts of life. 
Veda also explains but not justifies about the common exploitation due to differences in community both religious and non religious which will always remain. 
*That's why we have tolerance capability!!*


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## Huda

xyz said:


> well
> Pakistanis, its a simple advise for you, don't look at *our *Kashmir.



joke of the day

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## xyz

huda said:


> joke of the day



no, from the last 63 years its a joke.


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## amit27

Kashmir = holy land for Hindus, Sikhs & Buddhist no Indian goverment or leader can give it to Pakistan as it is not their's to give in the first place.


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## Nahraf

The origin of Amarnath Yatra dates back to the year 1850 A.D, when a Muslim shepherd from Batakot, named Buta Malik first discovered the cave in which lay enshrined the naturally formed Shivling (a Shivaite Fertility Symbol) made of ice. 

This site is visited by Hindus only since 1850. The "Lingam" is actually PEN15 or Phallus symbol of Shiva. The Hindus worships ''Lingam'' male sexual organ and ''Yoni'' femal sexual organ.


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## jha

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> For the uninformed murakhs ....
> 
> The Amarnath caves (Hindi: &#2309;&#2350;&#2352;&#2344;&#2366;&#2341; &#2327;&#2369;&#2347;&#2366;, Urdu: &#1575;&#1605;&#1585;&#1606;&#1575;&#1578;&#1726; &#1711;&#1615;&#1662;&#1726;&#1575 are one of the most famous shrines in Hinduism, dedicated to the god Shiva, located in the Indian state of *Jammu and Kashmir* ....ah strategic weak point . The shrine is claimed to be over 5,000 years old and forms an important part of Hindu mythology.
> 
> Inside the main Amarnath cave lies an *ice stalagmite* resembling the Shiva Linga, which waxes during May to August and gradually wanes thereafter. This lingam is said to grow and shrink with the phases of the moon, reaching its height during the summer festival.[According to Hindu mythology, this is the cave where Shiva explained the secret of life and eternity to his divine consort Parvati. Two other ice formations represent Parvati and Shiva's son, Ganesha.
> 
> The cave is situated at an altitude of 3,888 m (12,756 ft), about 141 km (88 mi) from Srinagar, the capital of Jammu and Kashmir. The Central Reserve Police Force, Indian Army and Indian Paramilitary Forces maintain a strong presence in the region due to security concerns.
> 
> oh boy ~~~~ another twist
> 
> I need to drink my ice stalagmite water to cool down its quite hot in here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any how informative ..stuff *learnd* something new
> 
> I wonder if *pilgirims* reach 1-2 million then India can claim Jammu Kashmir as a religious site and right to own ...ah... nice tactic



This is the best you could come with..
Try Harder next time

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## xyz

I can clearly see double standard of these separatist. They so well created the issue of just 100 acres land for Amarnath yatra and came on roads, created havoc. They tell us Indian government is allotting Lands to different sections of government, though the whole Land belongs to the Indian Union. 
Where where these separatist when Pakistan gave more than 70sqkm of Land Illegally to China?? There they did not protest even at once????


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## maithil

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> For the uninformed murakhs ....
> 
> The Amarnath caves (Hindi: &#2309;&#2350;&#2352;&#2344;&#2366;&#2341; &#2327;&#2369;&#2347;&#2366;, Urdu: &#1575;&#1605;&#1585;&#1606;&#1575;&#1578;&#1726; &#1711;&#1615;&#1662;&#1726;&#1575 are one of the most famous shrines in Hinduism, dedicated to the god Shiva, located in the Indian state of *Jammu and Kashmir* ....ah strategic weak point . The shrine is claimed to be over 5,000 years old and forms an important part of Hindu mythology.
> 
> Inside the main Amarnath cave lies an *ice stalagmite* resembling the Shiva Linga, which waxes during May to August and gradually wanes thereafter. This lingam is said to grow and shrink with the phases of the moon, reaching its height during the summer festival.[According to Hindu mythology, this is the cave where Shiva explained the secret of life and eternity to his divine consort Parvati. Two other ice formations represent Parvati and Shiva's son, Ganesha.
> 
> The cave is situated at an altitude of 3,888 m (12,756 ft), about 141 km (88 mi) from Srinagar, the capital of Jammu and Kashmir. The Central Reserve Police Force, Indian Army and Indian Paramilitary Forces maintain a strong presence in the region due to security concerns.
> 
> oh boy ~~~~ another twist
> 
> I need to drink my ice stalagmite water to cool down its quite hot in here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any how informative ..stuff learnd something new
> 
> I wonder if pilgirims reach 1-2 million then India can claim Jammu Kashmir as a religious site and right to own ...ah... nice tactic




Here is one informative post for you..


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## xyz

Dance said:


> Bhagat Singh was considered a freedom fighter so does that mean he's terrorist and not innocent. Cause according to you can't be a freedom fighter and an innocent



what a logic. Take pills and chill pill..


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## Dance

xyz said:


> what a logic. Take pills and chill pill..



Not as dumb logic as the guy who said that freedom fighters can't be "innocent" So according to him Bhagat Singh and all those who fought freedom from the British are "not innocent"


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## S_O_C_O_M

amit27 said:


> Kashmir = holy land for Hindus, Sikhs & Buddhist no Indian goverment or leader can give it to Pakistan as it is not their's to give in the first place.



how is it a holy land for hindus when the british coined the term "hinduism" AND their is no record of hinduism in ancient texts. Thus logic provides that there cannot be a holy land for hindus.


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## xyz

Dance said:


> Not as dumb logic as the guy who said that freedom fighters can't be "innocent" So according to him Bhagat Singh and all those who fought freedom from the British are "not innocent"



go and learn the meaning of a colony and a state!!


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## riju78

S_O_C_O_M said:


> how is it a holy land for hindus when the british coined the term "hinduism" AND their is no record of hinduism in ancient texts. Thus logic provides that there cannot be a holy land for hindus.



thanks for educating us on this valuable information...


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## amit27

S_O_C_O_M said:


> how is it a holy land for hindus when the british coined the term "hinduism" AND their is no record of hinduism in ancient texts. Thus logic provides that there cannot be a holy land for hindus.





Well Sir you are right the word Hindu(ism) is an alien concept made by persians for those living beyond the river sind they actually misspelled sind which became the present day 'hind'.

The actual word for our religion is San&#257;tana Dharma (a Sanskrit phrase meaning "the eternal law") .


Hindus/Sikhs/Buddhist belong to the Dharmic tree like Islam belongs to the Abrahamic tree. The dharmic religions have shared belief in terms of karma, reincarnation, moksha,kali yuga etc.

Kashmir is sacred land for Dharmic religions if you wish to get technical.

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## Dance

xyz said:


> go and learn the meaning of a colony and a state!!



No one except india considers Kashmir a "state" of india. Just like you guys wanted independence from the British, the Kashmiris want freedom from the tyranny of indian occupation. If they are terrorists then so are people who fought for indias freedom


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## Materialistic

> Congress isn't very cooperative with Buddhists either. For example, I am a Vajrayana Buddhist by belief and by our sect, most of our texts revere mainstream Hinduism.
> 
> Most Congress politicians in the northeast claim to help Buddhists but don't do anything in reality when it comes to stopping illegal immigrants who are violent or foreign missionaries who demonize our peaceful faith.



Thank God, this din't happen in our country otherwise India & world would have been gearing up for another media assault on Pakistan.

But I hope good and wish good to the followers of Buddha.



> Please note that this yatra is being carried out since last hundreds of years. Even before birth of Pakistan & ISLAM.



*Islam is a title which was given to this religion on completion and exists from the day 1 of this planet.*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cave_Temple_of_Lord_Amarnath.jpg





Anyways, here is a picture of this cave, my personal favorite, the cave looks huge and amazing!!


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## amit27

self delete


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## amit27

self delete


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## amit27

Nahraf said:


> The origin of Amarnath Yatra dates back to the year 1850 A.D, when a Muslim shepherd from Batakot, named Buta Malik first discovered the cave in which lay enshrined the naturally formed Shivling (a Shivaite Fertility Symbol) made of ice.
> 
> This site is visited by Hindus only since 1850. The "Lingam" is actually PEN15 or Phallus symbol of Shiva. The Hindus worships ''Lingam'' male sexual organ and ''Yoni'' femal sexual organ.





Hindu's dont worship sex organs u retard lol we worship the Supreme being. 

The Lingam is often represented with the Yoni, the aniconic symbol of the goddess. The union represents the "indivisible two-in-oneness of male and female, the passive space and active time from which all life originates".

Its like yin and Yang


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## mikkix

Indian Jatt said:


> are you trying to prove yourself a professor in Indian history ??
> 
> probably you did not read the Muslims attrocities on Sikhs to *forcibly*..mind it foricbly convert them to muslims..and when they failed in doing so..the sikhs were killed,mercilessly..just search and learn about sikh history...thousands of sikhs were butchered by Mughals just to forcibly convert them to Islam.
> 
> P.S - this is not to hurt any sentiments of our Indian muslims..I am just talking about Mughals, as claimed by the poster that they did not try to use force to convert everyone by force.



Jatt is really jattt...........


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## mikkix

amit27 said:


> Well Sir you are right the word Hindu(ism) is an alien concept made by persians for those living beyond the river sind they actually misspelled sind which became the present day 'hind'.
> 
> The actual word for our religion is San&#257;tana Dharma (a Sanskrit phrase meaning "the eternal law") .
> 
> 
> Hindus/Sikhs/Buddhist belong to the Dharmic tree like Islam belongs to the Abrahamic tree. The dharmic religions have shared belief in terms of karma, reincarnation, moksha,kali yuga etc.
> 
> Kashmir is sacred land for Dharmic religions if you wish to get technical.



Agreeed.........


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## Tshering22

Materialistic said:


> Thank God, this din't happen in our country otherwise India & world would have been gearing up for another media assault on Pakistan.
> 
> But I hope good and wish good to the followers of Buddha.
> 
> 
> 
> *Islam is a title which was given to this religion on completion and exists from the day 1 of this planet.*
> 
> File:Cave Temple of Lord Amarnath.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyways, here is a picture of this cave, my personal favorite, the cave looks huge and amazing!!


But dear buddy, your fellow followers of Abrahamic faith don't accept this. How can you say that then? I am talking about the day 1 discussion. I have asked this to all three of your faith followers (Jews, Christians and Muslims) and none of them agree with each other.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Salaam Aleykum PDF'ers


to all Pakistanis & friends of Kashmir -- I found this facebook group; be sure to join it for news/discussion/etc.

ALL JAMMU KASHMIR STUDENTS FRONT (AJKSF) | Facebook


incidentally, Kashmiri youth are using facebook/youtube to report on events, upload images of the violence waged by indian forces, and express anger. hindustany authorities are accusing them of using net to ''instigate'' civil unrest (freedom of speech??)

local human rights groups say several Kashmiri facebook users have received phone calls from police asking about their activities and ordering them to report to police station. Do the right thing and join the group in order to show support and solidarity to Kashmiri brothers/sisters in the interests of not bowing down or submitting to intimidation

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Salaam Aleykum PDF'ers


to all Pakistanis & friends of Kashmir -- I found this facebook group; be sure to join it for news/discussion/etc.

ALL JAMMU KASHMIR STUDENTS FRONT (AJKSF) | Facebook


incidentally, Kashmiri youth are using facebook/youtube to report on events, upload images of the violence waged by indian forces, and express anger. hindustany authorities are accusing them of using net to ''instigate'' civil unrest (freedom of speech??)

local human rights groups say several Kashmiri facebook users have received phone calls from police asking about their activities and ordering them to report to police station. Do the right thing and join the group in order to show support and solidarity to Kashmiri brothers/sisters in the interests of not bowing down or submitting to intimidation


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Police Intimidating Facebook Users in Kashmir: Rights Group​*


> SRINAGAR (AFP)  A leading rights group in Indian Kashmir said Tuesday Facebook users were being intimidated by police for uploading images of ongoing deadly protests in the Himalayan region.
> 
> Over the past six weeks the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley has been in the grip of regular anti-India demonstrations. Clashes with security forces have so far left 17 young protesters and bystanders dead.
> 
> Young Kashmiris have been uploading photos and videos on social networking site Facebook and video-sharing sites like YouTube.
> 
> The region's leading rights group, Coalition of Civil Society, said some Facebook users had been asked to report to police stations as a consequence.
> 
> "It is intimidation, nothing else," said Khurram Parvez, co-ordinator of Coalition of Civil Society. "The protests by Kashmiri youth even on virtual spaces like Facebook are not being tolerated, not to speak of the fate meted out to the protesters on the streets of Kashmir," Parvez told AFP.
> 
> "The democratic space for dissent in Kashmir is choked," he said.
> 
> The crackdown is allegedly centred in southern Anantnag district where police are accused of shooting dead three young men during protests last month. Grainy and shaky images of the blood-splattered bodies were uploaded.
> 
> The local police denied summoning anyone.
> 
> One 27-year old Kashmiri man told AFP he had deactivated his account under pressure from local police. He did not give his name out of fear of reprisals.
> 
> "They (police) told us we can't book you for using Facebook or YouTube but we can easily implicate you in other serious crimes if you don't mend your ways," he said.
> 
> India is wary of new technology and its ability to foment protests, as was most recently shown during demonstrations in Iran last June.
> 
> Footage of a young woman, Neda Agha-Soltan, being shot dead was put on YouTube which quickly turned her into a powerful and poignant symbol of the opposition movement.
> 
> Last month India banned phone users from sending SMS text messages in troubled Kashmir amid fears they were being used to mobilise protests and public opinion.
> 
> Kashmir is jointly administered by India and Pakistan.
> 
> An insurgency against Indian rule in the region that began in 1989 has claimed an estimated 47,000 lives.




Police intimidating Facebook users in Kashmir: rights group - Yahoo! News


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Police Intimidating Facebook Users in Kashmir: Rights Group​*


> *SRINAGAR (AFP) &#8211; A leading rights group in Indian Kashmir said Tuesday Facebook users were being intimidated by police for uploading images of ongoing deadly protests in the Himalayan region.*
> 
> Over the past six weeks the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley has been in the grip of regular anti-India demonstrations. Clashes with security forces have so far left 17 young protesters and bystanders dead.
> 
> Young Kashmiris have been uploading photos and videos on social networking site Facebook and video-sharing sites like YouTube.
> 
> *The region's leading rights group, Coalition of Civil Society, said some Facebook users had been asked to report to police stations as a consequence.
> 
> "It is intimidation, nothing else," said Khurram Parvez, co-ordinator of Coalition of Civil Society. "The protests by Kashmiri youth even on virtual spaces like Facebook are not being tolerated, not to speak of the fate meted out to the protesters on the streets of Kashmir," Parvez told AFP.*
> 
> "The democratic space for dissent in Kashmir is choked," he said.
> 
> The crackdown is allegedly centred in southern Anantnag district where police are accused of shooting dead three young men during protests last month. Grainy and shaky images of the blood-splattered bodies were uploaded.
> 
> The local police denied summoning anyone.
> 
> One 27-year old Kashmiri man told AFP he had deactivated his account under pressure from local police. He did not give his name out of fear of reprisals.
> 
> "They (police) told us we can't book you for using Facebook or YouTube but we can easily implicate you in other serious crimes if you don't mend your ways," he said.
> 
> *India is wary of new technology and its ability to foment protests, as was most recently shown during demonstrations in Iran last June.
> 
> Footage of a young woman, Neda Agha-Soltan, being shot dead was put on YouTube which quickly turned her into a powerful and poignant symbol of the opposition movement.*
> 
> *Last month India banned phone users from sending SMS text messages in troubled Kashmir amid fears they were being used to mobilise protests and public opinion.*
> 
> Kashmir is jointly administered by India and Pakistan.
> 
> An insurgency against Indian rule in the region that began in 1989 has claimed an estimated 47,000 lives.




Police intimidating Facebook users in Kashmir: rights group - Yahoo! News


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## Dance

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> *Police Intimidating Facebook Users in Kashmir: Rights Group​*
> 
> 
> Police intimidating Facebook users in Kashmir: rights group - Yahoo! News



Isn't india supposed to be the "worlds biggest democracy"? Where's their democracy now?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Asim Aquil said:


> .



very powerful and telling picture......good find


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Dance said:


> Isn't india supposed to be the "worlds biggest democracy"? Where's their democracy now?



only when it suits them.......the truth is, hindustany media will never show you the pictures and videos that we are seeing being uploaded on the world wide information highway AKA the internet

it is evident that Kashmiri youth yearn for the outside world to see what is really going on over there, especially the recent unrest
























p.s. mobile text messaging is banned in occupied Kashmir as well


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## Dance

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> only when it suits them.......the truth is, hindustany media will never show you the pictures and videos that we are seeing being uploaded on the world wide information highway AKA the internet
> 
> it is evident that Kashmiri youth yearn for the outside world to see what is really going on over there, especially the recent unrest
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> p.s. mobile text messaging is banned in occupied Kashmir as well



I agree, indians like to live in the delusion that Kashmiris want to be a part of india and that they love indians when in reality its exactly the opposite. If you talk to any Kashmiri or go on any Kashmiri website/group on Kashmir you'll know exactly how grim situation is there. I still want an indians response to the fact that they have banned text message/ fb in Kashmir yet they go on and on about how big of democracy they are and


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## Pakistani123

Allah help our Kashmiri Brothers and Sisters =(

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## Hulk

Pakistani123 said:


> Allah help our Kashmiri Brothers and Sisters =(



Hope you prayed for BD people during 1971. Kashmir atrocities are way hyped, otherwise why there is zero migration to Pakistan, as compared to millions in 1971. Why no one came on streets at the time of Kargil? People know that unless they pickup fight or help terrorist there is a remote chance of them being impacted, there are some exceptions that's it.


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## Dance

indianrabbit said:


> H 1971. Kashmir atrocities are way hyped .



Keep living in your indian delusions!

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## Abu Zolfiqar

im sure 99&#37; of the people on this forum werent even alive during the time of 1971; but based on interactions with Bengalis in real life and on this forum, there is no lost love between Pakistan and Bangladesh brothers/sisters

way to bring up an off-topic post by the way....an alternate method for spin control would be suggested

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## Dance

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> way to bring up an off-topic post by the way....an alternate method for spin control would be suggested



Yeah I like how he went totally off topic. I've noticed indians like to drag Pakistan in whenever we talk about topics like these

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## Pakistani123

indianrabbit said:


> Hope you prayed for BD people during 1971. Kashmir atrocities are way hyped, otherwise why there is zero migration to Pakistan, as compared to millions in 1971. Why no one came on streets at the time of Kargil? People know that unless they pickup fight or help terrorist there is a remote chance of them being impacted, there are some exceptions that's it.



Why so much anger and hatred in your heart? Most(normal) people would react the same why as me,after seeing those photos.


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## Saleem

99% of the atrocities in East Pakistan were caused by Indian Army trained terrorists against those who were loyal or potentially loyal to pakistan. this had the double benefit (for the indians) of provoking retaliation from loyal citizens of pakistan. 

AS I said earlier, all terrorists deserve equal punishment. this should include the Indian Army officers who trained the terrorists - the Indian Army officers are on record as having admitted to training the Muktis. 

Include the the Indian Army trained SOG (special operations group - the only thing special about these renegades is their inhumanity) in Kashmir.

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## flyinfishjoe

Well, duh. Of course the Indian Army trained the Mukti Bahini. No secret there. But claiming that 99&#37; of atrocities in East Pakistan were caused by the Indian Army is ridiculous. Please show one neutral source that shows that as true.


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## KS

Materialistic said:


> *Islam is a title which was given to this religion on completion and exists from the day 1 of this planet.*
> 
> 
> 
> Tshering22 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But dear buddy, y*our fellow followers of Abrahamic faith don't accept this.* How can you say that then? I am talking about the day 1 discussion. I have asked this to all three of your faith followers (Jews, Christians and Muslims) and none of them agree with each other.
Click to expand...



And that process of one-upmanship was the cause of the bloody crusades,the persecution of the Jews and currently the supressing of the Palestinians due to the payback from the Jews.


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## matti

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Salaam Aleykum PDF'ers
> 
> 
> to all Pakistanis & friends of Kashmir -- I found this facebook group; be sure to join it for news/discussion/etc.
> 
> ALL JAMMU KASHMIR STUDENTS FRONT (AJKSF) | Facebook
> 
> 
> incidentally, Kashmiri youth are using facebook/youtube to report on events, upload images of the violence waged by indian forces, and express anger. hindustany authorities are accusing them of using net to ''instigate'' civil unrest (freedom of speech??)
> 
> local human rights groups say several Kashmiri facebook users have received phone calls from police asking about their activities and ordering them to report to police station. Do the right thing and join the group in order to show support and solidarity to Kashmiri brothers/sisters in the interests of not bowing down or submitting to intimidation




*Police threaten Kashmiri Facebook users*
By Amy Kazmin in Srinagar 
Published: July 19 2010 08:55 | Last updated: July 19 2010 08:55

Indian police battling to control anti-India protests in the troubled province of Kashmir are accusing Facebook users of using the social networking site to instigate civil unrest.

*Over the past month of clashes that left 15 people dead in the restive province, young Kashmiris have used Facebook and YouTube to report on the events, upload images of the violence, and express their anger.*
*Indian authorities are now threatening to prosecute Kashmiris using Facebook and other sites to spread images and ideas that they say are inflammatory*.

Local human rights groups say several Kashmiri Facebook users have received phone calls from police asking about their activities and ordering them to report to the police station. As a result, many Kashmiris are now deactivating their Facebook accounts and re-registering under false names.

So far its intimidation, said Khurram Parvez, co-ordinator of the Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society. They are monitoring whosoever writes what.

Kashmir, the picturesque Himalayan valley at the centre of a decades-old dispute between India and Pakistan, remained tense at the weekend. Many towns were placed under curfew after residents of the northern town of Baramulla claimed a teenage boy had drowned in a river after being chased by police following a protest.

Meanwhile, hardline factions of the separatist Hurriyat Conference have called for strikes and other protests against Indian rule through the week.

*One person who asked not to be identified said he received phone calls from police after he uploaded a clip of two teenagers bleeding to death after being shot by police in Anantnag.*
Indian media never shows such pictures, said the 27-year-old social worker. There was no mischievous intent on my part. People here already know everything...I wanted the outside world to see.

Farrukh Faheem, a Delhi University professor visiting Anantnag, said he temporarily deactivated his account to avoid any trouble with police. *We have curfewed nights and days, and now we have a curfewed virtual world, *he said.

Indian authorities have been waging an escalating battle against new communication technologies that they fear are being used to mobilise Kashmiri public opinion and organise protests against Indian rule.

Last year, New Delhi banned the use of pre-paid mobile phone cards in Kashmir , citing their potential for misuse by terrorists, a decision that left around 3.8m Kashmir phone users disconnected. Nationally, around 90 per cent of Indian phone users have prepaid cards, which require no monthly fee.

New Delhis ban on the popular services in Kashmir sparked protests and a Supreme Court challenge, forcing authorities to reverse the decision. Even still, subscribers are now subjected to verification procedures not used elsewhere. Text messaging is also banned in Kashmir.

However, Facebook poses a new challenge, as it gains popularity as a forum for dissent and spreading creative ideas for civil disobedience to challenge Indian rule.

Facebook is actually becoming one of the platforms connecting Kashmiris and disseminating uncensored information, said Mr Parvez. We can organise a public meeting. This is the only democratic space available.

FT.com / Asia-Pacific - Police threaten Kashmiri Facebook users


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## DeathGod

No referendum should be held. A lot of Pro-India people have already died or deserted the state due to terrorism. The people who remain should either support India and live with it or migrate to Pakistan or China.

Kashmir is a part of India and will always remain a part of India. 

Pakistan should forget Kashmir and think about solidfying its internal security.

Dhood maangogey toh Kheer denge.. 
Kashmir maangogey toh Cheer denge...


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## Dance

DeathGod said:


> No referendum should be held. A lot of Pro-India people have already died or deserted the state due to terrorism. The people who remain should either support India and live with it or migrate to Pakistan or China.
> 
> Kashmir is a part of India and will always remain a part of India.
> 
> Pakistan should forget Kashmir and think about solidfying its internal security.
> 
> Dhood maangogey toh Kheer denge..
> Kashmir maangogey toh Cheer denge...



Yeah biggest joke of the century. Before lecturing others you might want to take care of that naxalite/maoist problem to your east. They've killed so many of your soliders and have blown up railroads and all kinds of infrastructure. Plus I've heard they have control over 10 or more states.


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## indushek

Dance said:


> Bhagat Singh was considered a freedom fighter so does that mean he's terrorist and not innocent. Cause according to you can't be a freedom fighter and an innocent



POST REPORTED.

You either have no knowledge of Freedom movement in India or u are here to hurt the feelings of Indians for whom Bhagat Singh was a freedom fighter and Martyr. I have seen this kind of logic before too from Jana but thought that would be the end of such Sick posts, How would u feel if we call ........... leave it i am not going to get to ur level.


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## Dance

indushek said:


> POST REPORTED.
> 
> You either have no knowledge of Freedom movement in India or u are here to hurt the feelings of Indians for whom Bhagat Singh was a freedom fighter and Martyr. I have seen this kind of logic before too from Jana but thought that would be the end of such Sick posts, How would u feel if we call ........... leave it i am not going to get to ur level.




I was just giving an example to that guy who said that all freedom fighters are terrorists. I used Bhagat Singh because he was an indian freedom fighter. I never said he was a terrorist, if you read through you'll see that i'm hypothetically speaking. It was your own countrymen who called freedom fighters terrorists or not innocent. I did't mean to offend anyone


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## EjazR

*Continuous shutdown hits tourism sector in Kashmir*

The continuous shutdown has adversely affected scores of poor pony owners in Yousmarg, a tourist spot in the valley.

These pony owners used to earn their livelihood by taking the tourists to the hills of Yousmarg.

But with the continuous demonstrations and curfews, there has been a decrease in the number of tourist inflow, which has affected tourism and allied trade.

Many pony owners believe that if the situation continues like this then they might have to sell off their ponies to support their families.

"We are almost 500 to 600 pony owners. Due to the shutdown everything has come to a standstill. Now we are in a situation that to support our families we may even have sell off our horses," said Gulzar Ahmad, a pony owner.

"The 5,000 families of 500 pony owners are in a miserable condition. But these leaders would only think about themselves and not of us," he added.

*The pony owners further said the leaders do not understand the pain of poor men and only think about their own benefits.*

*"Shutdown has affected our business badly and we all are not happy with ongoing shutdowns. These rich leaders only know how to create problems for poor people like us," said Gulam Mohi-u-din Wani, a pony owner.*

The separatist Hurriyat Conference announced a nine-day protest programme on July 16 against the atrocities being committed on Kashmiris by the troops.

The programme includes a complete shutdown, protests by Government employees and sit-ins to be observed by people across Jammu and Kashmir on Wednesday and Thursday. (ANI)


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## EjazR

*Kashmir people fed up from routine bandh calls by separatists @ www.punjabnewsline.com*

Ajmer Alam Wani
Monday, 19 July 2010
JAMMU: The routine protest programmes imposed by the separatists under the banner of Syed Ali Shah Gilani section of the Hurriyat Conference has irked majority of the people in Kashmir as the normal life across the Kashmir Valley has come to standstill following these programmes, which are enforced by the supporters of Hurriyat headed by Gilani.

These protest programmes of Hurriyat have brought many families particularly those who buy their bread and butter with their day's earning, on the verge of starvation. The recent 9 days long protest programme announced by the Hurriyat (G) has not only made the locals upset but internally there is great resentment brewing among the local people which could any time burst out against the separatists.

The common Kashmiri is of the view that after more than three weeks of curfews and shutdowns, life was returning to normalcy in the Kashmir valley but the protest programme, called in connection with the Hurriyat Conference's 'Quit Kashmir Campaign' on Friday has again forced the Valley and its common people remain indoor doing no job. The common Kashmiri people are displeased with the resent shutdown call, as it would again disrupt everyday life, their daily working, studies of school going children and those preparing for competitive examinations. Majority of the people who used to earn their two ends meal by working throughout the day are in real terms upset, even government offices functioning has disrupted and the people are not getting their works done. Though the Hurriyat Conference claims that the shutdown is being observed as a mark of protest against the 'atrocities being committed on Kashmiris by the troops', but forcing away and restraining the laborers from their work which helps them to earn two ends meal is not less than an imposed atrocity which is being enforced through such strike programmes.

The selfish attitude of the separatists has finally given room to the locals criticizing them for not thinking of the problems faced by the common man, as the unrest and shutdowns affect all type of workers who work in government or the private sector. Such shutdown from the past 20 days have affected badly those people who buy their bread and butter with their day's earning, now, they won't be having anything in their hands.

Interestingly Syed Ali Shah Geelani has called for a Valley-wide shutdown on Sunday to protest the alleged Human Rights (HR) violations by the security forces in Kashmir which is good, as every one should protest the HR violations committed anywhere across the globe but if the bread and butter of small children of labourers is being snatched due to such programmes, who will protest these Living Rights (LR) violations? Who will protest against those whose programmes are restricting school children form getting education? The attitude of the separatists which is against the interests of common Kashmiri and snatching bread and butter from them, has left no doubts on the role of these separatists who for their petty goals and well conspired agenda have never thought about the common man of Kashmir. What they (Separatists) can do is only using these innocent people as shields.

Now the people of Kashmir should realize that every one in Valley who has succeeded in making a place in media has been playing with their sentiments by making provocative speeches. Now these Kashmiri people have to think and not to get played in the hands of few selected people by using their own brain and stood up against those who are playing with the generations to come.

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## EjazR

*NHRC SEEKS REPORT Lastupdate:- Wed, 7 Jul 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com*

NEW DELHI: The National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) has sought a report from the Centre on the Machil fake encounter case in which three youth were killed in frontier district of Kupwara in April this year.
Taking cognizance of the case on a complaint filed by a human rights activist and lawyer Radhakanta Tripathy here, the Commission issued a notice to the Defence Secretary on July 2, asking him to submit a "detailed report" on the fake encounter within four weeks.
"In default, Commission may proceed to take such action as it would deem proper," it added.


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## KS

EjazR said:


> *NHRC SEEKS REPORT Lastupdate:- Wed, 7 Jul 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com*
> 
> NEW DELHI: The National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) has sought a report from the Centre on the Machil fake encounter case in which three youth were killed in frontier district of Kupwara in April this year.
> Taking cognizance of the case on a complaint filed by a human rights activist and lawyer Radhakanta Tripathy here, the Commission issued a notice to the Defence Secretary on July 2, asking him to submit a "detailed report" on the fake encounter within four weeks.
> "In default, Commission may proceed to take such action as it would deem proper," it added.



Good move.....But was this the same NHRC that kept a morbid silence wen 160 passengers were killed by Maoists some time back or 36 civilians were blown to bits by the same Maoists.?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

lol @ this guy


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## SpArK

Another ignorant post about Bhagath singh.. 
I guess the question has been answered in another thread before whether to call him terrorist or not.

Ignorant people can call him "Indian" freedom fighter, but people with a little brain knew he never targetted civilians and fought for the whole subcontinent.

Also a little information. he was born in banga in faisalabad district of Pakistan.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

I dont see Kashmiris killing fellow Kashmiris....they are rebelling against whom they perceive as an occupying force

pre-independence hindustanys like this sardar Singh rebelled against britishers (commendable)

who knew that years later the alienated Muslims would also say Inquilab Zindabad, thanks to our Quaid e Azam -- a revolutionary who never even had to fire a weapon

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## Hulk

First Only representative of Kashmir's have the right to say that Kashmir wants freedom. It cannot be India saying they do not or Pakistani saying they want.

So far the first struggle is do we have a clear representative of Kashmir who can say majority want's freedom?

Once that is done then anyone fighting for freedom can be termed as freedom fighter.

The UN resolution that people talk about does not have any representation from Kashmir and only has India and Pakistan representation, so that cannot be used to say Kashmir want's freedom as it is not their voice period.

So if you them want's to call a Kashmiri fighting in Kashmir as Freedom fighter, then even people in Baluchistan can be called freedom fighter.


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## Hulk

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I dont see Kashmiris killing fellow Kashmiris....they are rebelling against whom they perceive as an occupying force
> 
> pre-independence hindustanys like this sardar Singh rebelled against britishers (commendable)
> 
> *who knew that years later the alienated Muslims would also say Inquilab Zindabad, thanks to our Quaid e Azam -- a revolutionary who never even had to fire a weapon *



Comparing the two, I also want to know how much the world gives credit to Mr Jinhha for India's independence? Compare what they achieved also.


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## Prometheus

SRINAGAR: One of Indian-Administered Kashmirs most wanted militants has been killed in a fierce gunbattle, dealing a blow to the insurgency in the volatile Himalayan region, the military said Wednesday.

A Pakistani identified as Nouman, commander of the Pakistan-based Harkat-ul-Mujahedin rebel group in Indian-Administered Kashmir, was killed in an overnight shootout with soldiers, army spokesman JS Brar told AFP.

Harkat-ul-Mujahedin is one of a number of groups fighting against New Delhis rule in Muslim-majority Kashmir, which is divided between India and Pakistan. The most powerful group is thought to be Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT).

In recent years, Harkat and LeT have carried out joint operations, a move military analysts put down to depleting recruitment.

Brar said Nouman was the Kashmir valleys top most militant, wanted for a number of attacks including masterminding a nearly 24-hour siege at a hotel in the centre of Indian-Administered Kashmirs main city Srinagar in January.

His death is a big jolt to insurgency in Kashmir, he said, adding Nouman was an expert bomb-maker.

The gunbattle that killed him took place in Sopore town, about 50 kilometres, north of Srinagar, and also left an unidentified accomplice and an Indian soldier dead.

In further violence, police said suspected militants shot dead a civilian in the southern district of Kishtiwar early Wednesday.DAWN.COM | World | ?Most wanted? militant killed in Indian-Administered Kashmir

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## chakra

gr8 going indian armed forces. kill them all.


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## SpArK

Good job by armed forces.. hope its a shock for the insurgents.


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## dabong1

Karthic Sri said:


> Let me try to put the 1000 year crap in perspective....
> 
> *it is more due to the disunity among the hindu kings and the not-so-present loyalty (Rajputs aligning with Mughals) that u were able to rule for the so called 1000 years.* and *not so much due to the bravery of the Muslim kings.*



I see you havent bothered to put my quote into context............your indian friend was saying that muslims went around india forcing the hindus to accept islam as a norm.
There must have certain instances of "forced conversion" which i am not denying but overall during a long time of muslim rule if the policy had been to force hindus to accept islam then there would be no hindus today....they exact same way a hindu can say to me that indian does not force muslims to convert to being hindu becauce if they had the number of muslims would be going down each year.....it was only a simple logic to explain a point that you indian shave taken to heart.
When i mention the thousand year rule its not in some jingoistic way to show that muslim are somehow superior to hindus but to show that in such a long spance of time of muslims rule if they where that bad and ruthless as some people make out then they would have wiped hinduisim out.



Karthic Sri said:


> If they had been united like the invaders were u wouldn be able to do shyt.



Hanvt got a clue about that but i think the hindu kings did try a few times to unite under one banner but where defeated.




Karthic Sri said:


> remember how much the Marathas and the Sikhs kicked the rear end of the mighty Mughals.??



When the mughal s where on there last legs.....wasnt long after that the Marathas and the Sikhs back to being subjects but this not to the mughals but to the british just like the mughals.......you had you few years of "glory" and you cant forget it.




Karthic Sri said:


> And the Muslim hordes with all their armies couldn do jack in South India especially Tamil Nadu and Kerala and in the North East India were the Hindu Ahoms again repeatedly defeated the mughals.



Well done





Karthic Sri said:


> Eh..? before the invading Muslim kings came pillaging and killing innocents no religion related war ever happened on this beautiful land.



.....but they have had wars though havnt they?........if there "religion related" there bad in your book but if there not motivated by faith then they must be "good" wars.
The british invasion of india was not motivated by faith so it must be okay?



fateh71 said:


> You are probably referring to that Hindu bigot Bakhtiyar Khilji and the destruction of Nalanda, those damn buddhists who stole our Ashoka had it coming!



Actually i was talikng about King Pusyamitra




Karthic Sri said:


> If hindus had that mas-killing tendency that was prevalent among the Christian and Islamic kings then there wouldn be much Christians,Muslims left in India wich has a 80 &#37; Hindu majority.



Where do i say that hindus have a mas-killing tendency? i was just pointing out that hindu kings have killed large numbers of buddhist the same way you say muslims killed large numbers of hindus and its not like muslims kings didnt attack each other also.

According to the 2nd century Ashokavadana:
"Then King Pusyamitra equipped a fourfold army, and intending to destroy the Buddhist religion, he went to the Kukkutarama. Pusyamitra therefore destroyed the sangharama, killed the monks there, and departed.
After some time, he arrived in Sakala, and proclaimed that he would give a hundred dinara reward to whoever brought him the head of a Buddhist monk" (Shramanas) Ashokavadana, 133, trans. John Strong.

A Buddhist tradition holds him as having taken steps to check the spread of Buddhism as "the number one enemy of the sons of the Shakya's and a most cruel persecutor of the religion". The Divyavadana ascribes to him the razing of stupas and viharas built by Ashoka, and describes him as one who wanted to undo the work of Ashoka.


----------



## dabong1

seiko said:


> Fateh you just made mass killing a joke ,but cant help laughing ..



King Pusyamitra ......keep laughing




seiko said:


> Bakhtiyar Khilji was the reason for the decline of Budhism in India...But he is Muslim not Hindu ...dabong please do some research before posting ..
> 
> Or is that sarcasm?? .sorry if it is



Thankyou professor saab for letting us know(sarcasm)

"do some research before posting".......Please keep you advice to yourself.

So the buddhist where flourshing in india where there before the muslim came along?

By destryoing a university-library the muslims destroyed all remanants of Budhism in india
I hope you know that Bakhtiyar Khilji destroy the library after finding out that they did not have the koran.......you might think it to be a bit of an extreme measure but it shows that he destroyed for a reason and not just for the sake of it.


----------



## dabong1

fateh71 said:


> This is the logic used by hardcore bigots to whitewash the black deeds of likeminded bigots from the past. Unfortunately, those bigots from the past wrote glowing accounts of their deeds in their own court documents.



Its simple......did the muslims force the majority of hindus to accept islam during there rule?.....that was question i was trying to ask before all you indian started jumping to own conclusions that i wanted somehow the take over of india by "islamic" forces.

The real problem is it that the logic of my argument that if the muslims where that bad as you guys make out and where forcing everybody to convert to islam there would be no hindus left is a simple argument that you cant counter act a have to resort "his a bigot line".




fateh71 said:


> You probably think mughal empire collapsed because trecherous hindus sold themselves to British  I know your type and your polemics



There you go again like a jumping to own conclusions.....and i bet you think that all muslims should be killed or forced into being hindus.


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## Raghu

dabong1 said:


> Its simple......did the muslims force the majority of hindus to accept islam during there rule?.....that was question i was trying to ask before all you indian started jumping to own conclusions that i wanted somehow the take over of india by "islamic" forces.



I would answer it this way.

The longer the mulsim ruled certain areas , the more muslim it became.The converse is also equally true.

For example,todays Pakistan Sindh and punjab,even Afghanistan were the first one to come under muslim rule and remained to till date if i can say like that and Bengal ,parts Bihar too came under year 1200 , that why u see majority people are Muslims there.

While on the other hand u see least number of muslims in my state of Odisha which came under the muslim rule in relatively recent past in 16th century or say Nepal where muslims dont even count 5&#37; of the population. I argue the same for the sourthen states also though muslim population is relatively high in 10-25%.


*Other reasons could be due to the strenth of hindu religious values far were always far stronger in the interiors states of india compared north west(todays Pakistan) and Bengal(todays Banladesh) where followers of placidly peaceful Buddhism outnumbered hindus even before Muslim forces arrived on the coast of Sindh.*

I must make special mention of Kashmir where big numbers forced conversion took place in moghul era .Its evidence is clearly there since its relatively recent.



> The real problem is it that the logic of my argument that if the muslims where that bad as you guys make out and where forcing everybody to convert to islam there would be no hindus left is a simple argument that you cant counter act a have to resort "his a bigot line".



haha, 

I'll tell u about my state.
The Jannath temple of Puri built in 1247 is the one among four most sacred places of worship of Hindus .And its was attacked 18 times 200yrs of muslim rule,once Odisha came under the muslim rulers of Bengal in 1565 and later on the moghus.The priests of the temple put their lives on the line to hide the deities every time the temple came under attack.
Then finally one moghul general caught hold the deities in a remote village where it was hidden and brought them to burn them down.The legend has it ,when the moghul gereral started the fire, he own body started giving burning sensation and pus was generated from wounded parts .Hence he stopped the fire and flowed the deities in the river Ganga from where the deities were later recollected and brought back to the temple.






Konark Sun temple was damaged by muslim forces too and still its were remains was beautiful enough to become UN world Heritage site.






*The point is simple the Hindu religion survived in india inspite off agnist all the odds,aganist on slaught of muslim forces ,not due any concessions of the its muslim rulers of the past.*


----------



## Spring Onion

* Betrayal of Kashmiris, once again*
Thursday, 21 January 2010 09:32
E-mail Print PDF

By Afshain Afzal

The puppet Chief Minister of Indian held Jammu & Kashmir (IHK), Omar Abdullah, met Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on December 30, 2009, in New Delhi to discuss Justice Saghir Ahmads report (Fifth Working Group) on centre-state relations. During the meeting reports of all the five Working Groups, which were set up following second Round Table Conference on Kashmir in May 2006, were discussed and Omar Abdullah insisted on implementation of these reports. The issues discussed included special status of the IHK border state within the Indian Union, methods of strengthening secularism, rule of law in the state and democracy. Both the leaders discussed steps leading to decentralization of powers and replacement of regular Indian Army with Paramilitary Forces.

*Another important point of discussion was secret, quiet and off the table talks with various independence seeking groups and examination of the question of autonomy in the light of various formulas. Ironically, despite strong opposition from Kashmiri Muslims, Hindu Pundits and other groups across the state, Omar Abdullah is unable to hear the voices of the masses and still insisting on implementation of Working Groups reports.* It is interesting to note that while all other Working Groups presented their reports at the third roundtable conference in Delhi in April 2007, the fifth Working Group, headed by Justice Saghir Ahmed failed to submit its report in time. There was not a single meeting of this group since September 3, 2007. However out of the blue, the Group submitted report in the last week of December 2009, at the time when controversy over separate state status to Telegana is in full swing. There is no doubt that it was a golden opportunity for New Delhi to fool the Kashmiris once again.

*The Kashmiris, irrespective of the fact that they are Muslims, Hindu Pundits or Sikhs, want to get rid of Indian occupational forces and New Delhi-sponsored dictators out from IHK. It is an open secret that they are not likely to compromise or agree to any deal less than complete independence from Indian Union. Kashmiris want to express their right of self-determination in the shape of free and impartial plebiscite. It is worth mentioning here that since partition in August 1947, thousands of Kashmiri Muslims were forced by India to migrate to different Pakistani cities and Azad Jammu and Kashmir.*

*The Indian government and its security forces also expelled the Hindu Pundits from their ancestral houses and orchards, presently under occupation of Indian Armed forces. Today, the forced-homeless Hindu Pundits are living in miserable condition in various refugee camps in India. It is quite depressing to note that the Indian government is not interested in providing an opportunity to Kashmiri Muslims and minorities to live with harmony. *

The Working Committee Reports have authenticated presence of Indian armed forces by mere relocating the security personnel from agriculture lands to other locations.

*Indian state-sponsored propaganda machinery is propagating that the recommendations of the Working Group regarding Article 370 is inconsistent with the spirit of the declarations made in the Constituent Assembly at the time of incorporation of the Article in the constitution and that these recommendations will reduce the minority communities of the Jammu and Kashmir State as second class citizens in their own home state.
*


*The fact cannot be denied that Article 370 is illegitimate and is in clear violation to 3rd June Plan and United Nations Security Council Resolution. The recommendations in the report regarding the appointment of the Governor in IHK by the Centre would deprive Kashmiris of their democratic rights for ever and the state would be directly governed by Centre through representative of Indian Union. Kashmiri Muslim groups have strongly rejected the Working Committee reports and are not ready to become part of the Indian conspiracy once again. Hindu parties, including BJP, have rejected Justice Saghir Ahmeds report and demanded its revocation. They have also demanded the Prime Ministers intervention. BJP had announced launching of awareness campaign in entire Jammu region on January 4, 2010 and threatened that if there will be no response from the Centre over the report, mass agitation will be carried out. BJP is also demanding abrogation of Article 370 that gives special status to Jammu and Kashmir. *

Panun Kashmir has also rejected the recommendations of the Working Group and termed them as a complete sell-out of the interests of the displaced Kashmiri Pundits, the people of Jammu and Ladakh. Panun Kashmir is of the view that the recommendations of the said report have the potential to take the State back to 1952-position and plunge the State in a constitutional and social crisis of an unprecedented dimension.

Panun Kashmir claimed that proposal regarding doing away with Article 356 of the constitution is dangerous manure since IHK is a frontline state. And in the event of an emergency, the Centre would not be able to invoke the provisions of Article 356 while people of the state would be left at the mercy of the situation. Jammu & Kashmir National Panthers Party (JKNPP) has called Justice Saghit Ahmeds report as biased and is of the view that it deserves to be dumped into the dustbin without any further discussion. The Panthers Party Chairman appealed in person to the leadership of BJP, Congress, Jammu State Morcha, Left parties and other social groups, including Chamber of Commerce, Trade Unions, Bar 

Associations, Sangarsh Samiti, students and youth organizations and all those who share our view on the fraudulent report of Justice Saghir Ahmed to put their collective efforts to teach central-State government a lesson forever. There is lot of opposition to Justice Saghir Ahmeds report from every corner of IHK, irrespective of the fact that they are Kashmiri Muslims, Hindus or Sikhs. With the exception of National Conference (NC) and some symbolic Centre-backed parties, everyone is dagger drawn to the recommendations in the report. Generally speaking, it seems that the recommendations are in favour of Kashmiris, especially the Muslims, but there is a big conspiracy being hatched against every individual linked with Kashmiri freedom struggle. If we trace back the conspiracy, the Indian government at Centre and its Intelligence agencies through a systematic plot divided the people of IHK on ethnic and sectarian lines.

*Hindu political groups in India exploited the situation to create situation that led to exodus of religious and ethnic minorities in IHK which in couple of months led to a very dangerous situation. New Delhi sponsored mass migration of Hindu Pundits and Sikhs and created such conditions in IHK that it became impossible for them to live in the state. 
*
*Indian security forces ruthlessly massacred Hindus and Sikhs so that mass exodus takes place and blame is levelled on the Muslims. According to Indian official figures, there were three lakh Kashmiri Pundits in IHK prior to 1990 Indian military operation against Kashmiris. In Jammu Valley there was mass migration and their number decreased to 9000 in 1990 which further came down to around 4000 in 2008-2009. Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singhs visited Jammu in April 2004 and ordered construction of 5,442 flats at three locations at Jagjiti near Nagrota, Muthi and Purkhoo. His second visit took place in May 2008. There are around 30 organisations/groups representing the Pundit community, many among them are playing in the hands of Indian and foreign intelligence agencies.
*
The increase in activities of Mossad, MI5 and MI6 as well as CIA in IHK has even alarmed Indian agencies. There is a plan to move as many Hindus in IHK, especially in Jammu as possible. 


*The Indian government has made an open offer that those who have sold their properties in IHK prior to 1997 and do not possess any house there are entitled to reimbursement of same amount as cash assistance for construction of houses or collective housing societies. Those who would avail this offer would also be given other incentives including 6000 jobs for unemployed migrant of which half the jobs would be the responsibility of Central Government. Similarly Indian intelligence agencies and their agents have penetrated inside Azad Jammu & Kashmir (AJ&K) and have arranged migration of a number of Kashmiris, especially refugees from IHK, on attractive incentives including cash to each family member and job security. One wonders, how long Indian government would suppress the voices of Kashmiris.*


The acceptance of offer by some of the helpless Kashmiris is projected as great triumph, forgetting that it has been achieved on bayonet of the gun and blackmailing tactics. It seems that the International Organisations (IO) such as United Nations Organisation (UNO) and Non Governmental Organisations (NGO) have sold their conscience and are mere spectators waiting for the annihilation of all those who are fighting for their rights.


Betrayal of Kashmiris, once again


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## Dance

BENNY said:


> Another ignorant post about Bhagath singh..
> I guess the question has been answered in another thread before whether to call him terrorist or not.
> 
> Ignorant people can call him "Indian" freedom fighter, but people with a little brain knew he never targetted civilians and fought for the whole subcontinent.
> 
> Also a little information. he was born in banga in faisalabad district of Pakistan.



There was no Pakistan at the time was there? So he's an indian freedom fighter. He did fight for the subcontinent but he wasn't a PAKISTANI freedom fighter. We have our own and you guys have yours I dont why you're making a big deal out of this.


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## notsuperstitious

dabong1 said:


> Its simple......did the muslims force the majority of hindus to accept islam during there rule?.....that was question i was trying to ask before all you indian started jumping to own conclusions that i wanted somehow the take over of india by "islamic" forces.
> 
> The real problem is it that the logic of my argument that if the muslims where that bad as you guys make out and where forcing everybody to convert to islam there would be no hindus left is a simple argument that you cant counter act a have to resort "his a bigot line".
> 
> There you go again like a jumping to own conclusions.....and i bet you think that all muslims should be killed or forced into being hindus.



Your lack of comprehension is not afterall linked to your bigotry then! I did exactly called your stupid argument for what it is, an apologetic argument to divert attention from the plight of the hindu kashmiri pundits at the hands of bigoted terrorists. The hindu pundits are still hindu even after being kicked out of their homes by your heroes, and they are still hindu even after aurangzeb and his goons persecuted them and forced them to convert. just because some of them resisted the persecution and suffered and did not give in, does not mean they were NOT persecuted.

Your simplistic argument will go down very well with simplistic brainwashed minds who look at things from a religious angle only, but that so called logic proves nothing, however the court documents left behind by aurangzeb and some other (of course not all) muslim rulers clearly shows what really happened.

You can talk whatever rubbish you want abt me and what i think abt muslims, but my posts and views are clear enough on tolerance and co existence, something the hindu pundits of kashmir are denied by the bigoted heroes of hell. Shame on them and their dehumanlised religious supporters.


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## jbond197

@Jana's post (Betrayal of Kashmiris, once again)
Wow!! what an eye opening conspiracy theory.  You know what IA is killing innocent hindus,sikhs and all every where in India so that they can build vacation homes for their family every where. 

I can not believe the standard of journalism can go so low anywhere. 
*FacePalm*

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## dabong1

I see you fail to mention post no 9


S_O_C_O_M said:


> These Pundits will never be able to go home. Its better they move to India's mainland and start a new life there rather than trying to go to a place where they are not wanted.



*Dabong:Have to disagree.......the pandits are our brothers and have just as much right as muslim-buddhist-sikh kashmiris to live in there own land.*




fateh71 said:


> Your lack of comprehension is not afterall linked to your bigotry then! I did exactly called your stupid argument for what it is, an apologetic argument to divert attention from the plight of the hindu kashmiri pundits at the hands of bigoted terrorists. The hindu pundits are still hindu even after being kicked out of their homes by your heroes, and they are still hindu even after aurangzeb and his goons persecuted them and forced them to convert. just because some of them resisted the persecution and suffered and did not give in, does not mean they were NOT persecuted.
> 
> Your simplistic argument will go down very well with simplistic brainwashed minds who look at things from a religious angle only, but that so called logic proves nothing, however the court documents left behind by aurangzeb and some other (of course not all) muslim rulers clearly shows what really happened..



*historian Babu Nagendranath Banerjee rejected the accusation of forced conversion of Hindus by Muslim rulers by stating that if that was their intention then in India today there would not be nearly four times as many Hindus compared to Muslims*,(This historian must also be making stupid arguments) despite the fact that Muslims had ruled for nearly a thousand years. Banerjee challenged the Hindu hypothesis that Aurangzeb was anti-Hindu by reasoning that if the latter were truly guilty of such bigotry, how could he appoint a Hindu as his military commander-in-chief? Surely, he could have afforded to appoint a competent Muslim general in that position. Banerjee further stated: "No one should accuse Aurangzeb of being communal minded. In his administration, the state policy was formulated by Hindus. Two Hindus held the highest position in the State Treasury. Some prejudiced Muslims even questioned the merit of his decision to appoint non-Muslims to such high offices. The Emperor refuted that by stating that he had been following the dictates of the Shariah (Islamic Law) which demands appointing right persons in right positions." During Aurangzeb's long reign of fifty years, many Hindus, notably Jaswant Singh, Raja Rajrup, Kabir Singh, Arghanath Singh, Prem Dev Singh, Dilip Roy, and Rasik Lal Crory, held very high administrative positions. Two of the highest ranked generals in Aurangzeb's administration, Jaswant Singh and Jaya Singh, were Hindus. Other notable Hindu generals who commanded a garrison of two to five thousand soldiers were Raja Vim Singh of Udaypur, Indra Singh, Achalaji and Arjuji. One wonders if Aurangzeb was hostile to Hindus, why would he position all these Hindus to high positions of authority, especially in the military, who could have mutinied against him and removed him from his throne?

Most Hindus like Akbar over Aurangzeb for his multi-ethnic court where Hindus were favored. Historian Shri Sharma states that while Emperor Akbar had fourteen Hindu Mansabdars (high officials) in his court, Aurangzeb actually had 148 Hindu high officials in his court. (Ref: Mughal Government) But this fact is somewhat less known.

Some of the Hindu historians have accused Aurangzeb of demolishing Hindu Temples. 
Interestingly, the 1946 edition of the history textbook Etihash Parichaya (Introduction to History) used in Bengal for the 5th and 6th graders states: "If Aurangzeb had the intention of demolishing temples to make way for mosques, there would not have been a single temple standing erect in India. On the contrary, Aurangzeb donated huge estates for use as Temple sites and support thereof in Benares, Kashmir and elsewhere. The official documentations for these land grants are still extant."

*A stone inscription in the historic Balaji or Vishnu Temple, located north of Chitrakut Balaghat, still shows that it was commissioned by the Emperor himself. The proof of Aurangzeb's land grant for famous Hindu religious sites in Kasi, Varanasi can easily be verified from the deed records extant at those sites.* The same textbook reads: "During the fifty year reign of Aurangzeb, not a single Hindu was forced to embrace Islam. He did not interfere with any Hindu religious activities." (p. 138) Alexander Hamilton, a British historian, toured India towards the end of Aurangzeb's fifty year reign and observed that every one was free to serve and worship God in his own way. 





fateh71 said:


> You can talk whatever rubbish you want abt me and what i think abt muslims, but my posts and views are clear enough on tolerance and co existence, something the hindu pundits of kashmir are denied by the bigoted heroes of hell. Shame on them and their dehumanlised religious supporters.



I hope they also build a load of house for the muslim refugees.


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## dabong1

jbond197 said:


> @Jana's post (Betrayal of Kashmiris, once again)
> Wow!! what an eye opening conspiracy theory.  You know what IA is killing innocent hindus,sikhs and all every where in India so that they can build vacation homes for their family every where.
> 
> I can not believe the standard of journalism can go so low anywhere.
> *FacePalm*



In March 2000 just before Bill Clinton was due to visit India, 38 Sikhs were massacred in the Indian part of Kashmir. The government blamed Muslim militants but it seems Clinton knew what really happened. wrote a different account his in Madeleine Albrights book .

The former U.S. President Bill Clinton has emphasized that Hindu militants were responsible for the massacre of 38 Sikhs at Chatisinghpora in occupied Kashmir in March 2000, a KMS report says.
He pointed out, During my visit to India in 2000, some Hindu militants decided to vent their outrage by murdering 38 Sikhs in cold blood. If I hadnt made the trip, the victims would probably still be alive. If I hadnt made the trip, I couldnt have done my job as president of the United States. 

The book was later edited out after an Indian blog pointed out that actually Lashkar-e-Taiyba was behind the massacre according to the indians.

But an investigation by Indias Outlook Magazine (registration req). found that not everything was clear-cut as the army made out.

Security forces operating in the Kashmir Valley are familiar with the term white terrorism. For the average Kashmiri, it is a form of state-sponsored action with the tacit approval of the authorities to ensure that the right message goes out. The skewed idea is to keep the local population terrorised so that they do not extend any help to militants.
Was the killing of five civilians in the early hours of March 25, 2000, by the army following the Chitsinghpura Sikh massacre a case of white terrorism? The chargesheet filed by the CBI, after three years of investigation, raises serious questions about the armys role and the shocking cover-up. The sordid tale in a nutshell is that on the eve of President Bill Clintons visit, militants struck at Chitsinghpura on May 20, killing 36 Sikhs. Five days later, the army responded by gunning down five villagers in Pathribal, Anantnag district, and passing them off as the militants responsible for the May 20 attack.
The CBI chargesheet, accessed by Outlook, exposes the institutional efforts of the army to cover up the incident and to protect the guilty. A series of letters and documents annexed to the chargesheet show that at every stage army headquarters and its lower formations refused to cooperate with the CBI. The army top brass tried to shield the officers involved from being prosecuted by a civilian agency. But what has also angered many is the fact that the army chose to promote all the accused even while the investigation was on.

All five were disfigured beyond recognition and after several false starts, including reports of samples being tampered with, it was finally established that they were local villagers.

Sick sick sick. State terrorism is alive and well.


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## jbond197

^^^^
Another BS propaganda being taught to your likes.. 

Even Bill Clinton even retraced his statment after learning the fact the millitants dressed up in IA uniforms to that shameful act. That was cowardly act by millitants to get attention of visiting US president and to show IA in poor light nothing more.

Rest of your post is pure BS... if BS articles, posts keeps you and few others happy then we can't help.. Carry on with it...

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## notsuperstitious

dabong1 said:


> I see you fail to mention post no 9
> 
> 
> *Dabong:Have to disagree.......the pandits are our brothers and have just as much right as muslim-buddhist-sikh kashmiris to live in there own land.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *historian Babu Nagendranath Banerjee rejected the accusation of forced conversion of Hindus by Muslim rulers by stating that if that was their intention then in India today there would not be nearly four times as many Hindus compared to Muslims*,(This historian must also be making stupid arguments) despite the fact that Muslims had ruled for nearly a thousand years. Banerjee challenged the Hindu hypothesis that Aurangzeb was anti-Hindu by reasoning that if the latter were truly guilty of such bigotry, how could he appoint a Hindu as his military commander-in-chief? Surely, he could have afforded to appoint a competent Muslim general in that position. Banerjee further stated: "No one should accuse Aurangzeb of being communal minded. In his administration, the state policy was formulated by Hindus. Two Hindus held the highest position in the State Treasury. Some prejudiced Muslims even questioned the merit of his decision to appoint non-Muslims to such high offices. The Emperor refuted that by stating that he had been following the dictates of the Shariah (Islamic Law) which demands appointing right persons in right positions." During Aurangzeb's long reign of fifty years, many Hindus, notably Jaswant Singh, Raja Rajrup, Kabir Singh, Arghanath Singh, Prem Dev Singh, Dilip Roy, and Rasik Lal Crory, held very high administrative positions. Two of the highest ranked generals in Aurangzeb's administration, Jaswant Singh and Jaya Singh, were Hindus. Other notable Hindu generals who commanded a garrison of two to five thousand soldiers were Raja Vim Singh of Udaypur, Indra Singh, Achalaji and Arjuji. One wonders if Aurangzeb was hostile to Hindus, why would he position all these Hindus to high positions of authority, especially in the military, who could have mutinied against him and removed him from his throne?
> 
> Most Hindus like Akbar over Aurangzeb for his multi-ethnic court where Hindus were favored. Historian Shri Sharma states that while Emperor Akbar had fourteen Hindu Mansabdars (high officials) in his court, Aurangzeb actually had 148 Hindu high officials in his court. (Ref: Mughal Government) But this fact is somewhat less known.
> 
> Some of the Hindu historians have accused Aurangzeb of demolishing Hindu Temples.
> Interestingly, the 1946 edition of the history textbook Etihash Parichaya (Introduction to History) used in Bengal for the 5th and 6th graders states: "If Aurangzeb had the intention of demolishing temples to make way for mosques, there would not have been a single temple standing erect in India. On the contrary, Aurangzeb donated huge estates for use as Temple sites and support thereof in Benares, Kashmir and elsewhere. The official documentations for these land grants are still extant."
> 
> *A stone inscription in the historic Balaji or Vishnu Temple, located north of Chitrakut Balaghat, still shows that it was commissioned by the Emperor himself. The proof of Aurangzeb's land grant for famous Hindu religious sites in Kasi, Varanasi can easily be verified from the deed records extant at those sites.* The same textbook reads: "During the fifty year reign of Aurangzeb, not a single Hindu was forced to embrace Islam. He did not interfere with any Hindu religious activities." (p. 138) Alexander Hamilton, a British historian, toured India towards the end of Aurangzeb's fifty year reign and observed that every one was free to serve and worship God in his own way.



The same cherry picked idiotic argument, as there are hindus left in india, that means they were not persecuted, as there are temples left in india, none were destroyed!

Using logic to deny Guru Tegh Bahadur's martyrdom, to overlook the court documents, to deny history of somnath and nalanda is exactly what an apologist would do, use 'logic'.

Hey there are millions of muslims in kashmir even after 60 yrs of indian rule, thats proof enough that our rule is very tolerant compared to the now de hinduised valley of kashmir thanks to your well trained heroes! There, suck on your own 'logic'

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## matti

indianrabbit said:


> First Only representative of Kashmir's have the right to say that Kashmir wants freedom. It cannot be India saying they do not or Pakistani saying they want.
> 
> So far the first struggle is do we have a clear representative of Kashmir who can say majority want's freedom?
> 
> Once that is done then anyone fighting for freedom can be termed as freedom fighter.
> 
> The UN resolution that people talk about does not have any representation from Kashmir and only has India and Pakistan representation, so that cannot be used to say Kashmir want's freedom as it is not their voice period.
> 
> So if you them want's to call a Kashmiri fighting in Kashmir as Freedom fighter, then even people in Baluchistan can be called freedom fighter.




so you are saying we need to have referendum to find out if the majority of Kashmirs want freedom or not but at the same time you are you are saying we cant do that because Kashmir had no representation in UN?????
 ?


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## Solomon2

I hope Kashmiris get their referendum. Question is, how will Pakistan react if Kashmiris choose independence rather than union with either India or Pakistan? The GoP didn't like it when Pakistan sent infiltrators into Kashmir back in 1965 and the Kashmiris rejected them and called upon the India to kick them out; open war with India ensued. Does anybody want to see a repeat, on an even larger and deadlier scale?


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## Dance

Solomon2 said:


> I hope Kashmiris get their referendum. Question is, how will Pakistan react if Kashmiris choose independence rather than union with either India or Pakistan? The GoP didn't like it when Pakistan sent infiltrators into Kashmir back in 1965 and the Kashmiris rejected them and called upon the India to kick them out; open war with India ensued. Does anybody want to see a repeat, on an even larger and deadlier scale?



Pakistanis will be fine with it, thats why we're saying have a referendum. It's only the indians who seem to be having all types of problems. Because even a independent Kashmir will be pro-Pakistan, so it works out either way.

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## Hulk

matti said:


> so you are saying we need to have referendum to find out if the majority of Kashmirs want freedom or not but at the same time you are you are saying we cant do that because Kashmir had no representation in UN?????
> ?



I am saying UN resolution is not wish of Kashmiri's as they are not party to it.

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## karan.1970

jonasad said:


> So whats the point?
> 
> There was a lot of protest inside india about oil price hike, can we put it in the same context aswell?



The point is that simply a few thousand misguided people indulging in violent behaviour of stone pelting etc does not signify how right or wrong things are in the state...

@Asim.. That was the point and not to derail the thread...


----------



## KS

dabong1 said:


> I see you havent bothered to put my quote into context............your indian friend was saying that muslims went around india forcing the hindus to accept islam as a norm.
> There must have certain instances of "forced conversion" which i am not denying but overall during a long time of muslim rule if the policy had been to force hindus to accept islam then there would be no hindus today....



U think so that the bigot Aurangazeb didn try that...?? 

the brave Hindus and Sikhs stood their ground and were ready to be killed rather than be converted.

And mind u the majority of conversions were rather out of fear of being persecuted than some love to an alien religion 




dabong1 said:


> Hanvt got a clue about that but i think the hindu kings did try a few times to unite under one banner but where defeated.



Too few and too far inbetween




dabong1 said:


> When the mughal s where on there last legs.....wasnt long after that the Marathas and the Sikhs back to being subjects but this not to the mughals but to the british just like the mughals.......you had you few years of "glory" and you cant forget it.



And why they were on their last legs..? Due to the constant wars with the Marathas and Sikhs that made them weak.Classic case of "
war of friction".

And as being subjects to the British....same thing ...dis unity after a brief period of unity and being traiterous.

p.s.: I dont blame the Mughals or the British for that...its the Hindus who put sands on their heads themselves.




dabong1 said:


> .....but they have had wars though havnt they?........if there "religion related" there bad in your book but if there not motivated by faith then they must be "good" wars.



Yes they had wars...but that was over land and wealth..Im not saying that those wars are good....but atleast those kings by far had a code of conduct even in war not to jharm old people,unarmed peeople ,women and children.
But those invading looters had none of that all they had in mind was rape,pillage,loot .



dabong1 said:


> The british invasion of india was not motivated by faith so it must be okay?



It acquired a religious overtone none the less...ever heard of the "White man's Burden"..?





dabong1 said:


> Actually i was talikng about King Pusyamitra
> 
> Where do i say that hindus have a mas-killing tendency? i was just pointing out that hindu kings have killed large numbers of buddhist the same way you say muslims killed large numbers of hindus and its not like muslims kings didnt attack each other also.
> 
> According to the 2nd century Ashokavadana:
> "Then King Pusyamitra equipped a fourfold army, and intending to destroy the Buddhist religion, he went to the Kukkutarama. Pusyamitra therefore destroyed the sangharama, killed the monks there, and departed.
> After some time, he arrived in Sakala, and proclaimed that he would give a hundred dinara reward to whoever brought him the head of a Buddhist monk" (Shramanas) Ashokavadana, 133, trans. John Strong.
> 
> A Buddhist tradition holds him as having taken steps to check the spread of Buddhism as "the number one enemy of the sons of the Shakya's and a most cruel persecutor of the religion". The Divyavadana ascribes to him the razing of stupas and viharas built by Ashoka, and describes him as one who wanted to undo the work of Ashoka.



He was an exception rather than a rule man...for godsake.!!!


----------



## ice_man

guys any updates what happened to protests in kashmir?? i guess pakistanis and indians have had enough of venting out there venom on the issue & have decided to call a truce shows that kashmir is not at the forefront anymore!

i guess bored of discussing kashmir are we?


----------



## friendly_troll96

vsdoc said:


> Bro, please do not say "u muslims" ..... we have many million muslims of our own living in peace as loyal Indians. By choice. As brothers.
> 
> Without going into the gentic identity of the Pakistani "race" and how close if at all they really are to those muslim invaders of many centuries ago, whose flag they continue to fly vigorously and enthusiastically, the fact remains that a thriving multi-cultural multi-religion secular India today is more than enough of a slap in the face of such pseudo-supremacists.
> 
> I call this syndrome "Greatness by Proxy." Let us just smile and move on.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Try telling your &#8216;Muslim brothers&#8217; they have nothing in common with the Muslim invaders because of whom their religion is preserved.

FYI there&#8217;s no such thing as &#8216;Pakistani race&#8217;. &#8216;Pakistani&#8217; is a nationality!

You&#8217;ll never know how close Muslims are to one another regardless of their race and country.
Allah s.w.t. says in the Quran,


> &#8220;And remember Allah&#8217;s favor upon you. You were enemies one to another but He joined your hearts together, so that, by this grace, you became brothers. And you were on a brink of a pit of fire and He saved you from it&#8221;. [ Sura Al Imran &#8211;103 ]


 Allah s.w.t. also says,


> &#8220;And He had united their (the believers) hearts. If you (O Muhammad s.a.w.) had spent all that is in the earth, you could not have united their hearts. But it is Allah who has united them. Certainly He is almighty, all wise&#8221;. [ Sura Al Anfal &#8211; 63 ]



P.S. I wouldn&#8217;t mind you smile, but brush your teeth with some whitening toothpaste man! It looks like a bio hazard in your mouth and it&#8217;s creeping me the hell out. I hope it&#8217;s just a bad pic though.

Thanks, Nomi


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## vedvyas

ice_man said:


> guys any updates what happened to protests in kashmir?? i guess pakistanis and indians have had enough of venting out there venom on the issue & have decided to call a truce shows that kashmir is not at the forefront anymore!
> 
> i guess bored of discussing kashmir are we?




All stones are with security forces. we need money to buy stones from them.


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## vedvyas

Tshering22 said:


> Congress isn't very cooperative with Buddhists either. For example, I am a Vajrayana Buddhist by belief and by our sect, most of our texts revere mainstream Hinduism.
> 
> Most Congress politicians in the northeast claim to help Buddhists but don't do anything in reality when it comes to stopping illegal immigrants who are violent or foreign missionaries who demonize our peaceful faith.




There are pros in cons of everything. so if you oppose congress, you do progress.


----------



## vedvyas

Asim Aquil said:


> Pakistan supports the right of self-determination by Kashmiris in a UN administered plebiscite.



A "white lie = black truth". if so, in 60 years, "azad kashmiris" would have their own constitution and India would have kashmiri representatives to negotiate with. However, we are negotiating with Pakistanis.

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## Spitfighter

Karthic Sri said:


> Just to add to Spitfighter :
> 
> U know Man mohan singh was from present day Pakistan and LK Advani was from Sindh...or for that matter Musharraf was from Delhi..so can we just start claiming Sindh and u guys Delhi..?
> 
> Ridiculous aint it..?



lol, I actually didn't know that. Sindh Pradesh sounds weird though, can you think of a catchier name?


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## Hulk

Dance said:


> Pakistanis will be fine with it, thats why we're saying have a referendum. It's only the indians who seem to be having all types of problems. Because even a independent Kashmir will be pro-Pakistan, so it works out either way.



You cannot change your stand as it suits you and then expect others to follow. Kashmir was independent in 1948, you attacked Kashmir in 1948 not India. Rest is history.


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## Spitfighter

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Salaam Aleykum PDF'ers



Walaikum assalam.



> incidentally, Kashmiri youth are using facebook/youtube to report on events, upload images of the violence waged by indian forces, and express anger. hindustany authorities are accusing them of using net to ''instigate'' civil unrest *(freedom of speech??)*



While we're on the topic, is Facebook still banned in Pakistan? 

Freedom of speech doesn't exist so people (like you) can exploit it. Rights come with duties, thus as a citizen one must exercise their rights responsibly. I doubt we'd do something as draconian (and ridiculous) as ban Facebook altogether, but we should certainly block those groups/users who are spreading malicious/hateful propaganda as they only seek to incite violence.

India isn't as liberal as Pakistan, we don't allow our rebels to propagate their message on radio as the TTP does in NWFP and FATA.

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## friendly_troll96

> Your posts themselves show the religious bigot
> u are,


And so are you! Because if you were not, you simply wouldn&#8217;t have replied to any such post in the first instance!



> get them arrested under laws by which no proof is required by saying they abused ur religion.



Nah, the traits and tactics of Hinduism are considered null and void in Islam. They don&#8217;t suit us. Suppose there was some forced conversion under the Islamic rule in India, don&#8217;t you think Hindus wouldn&#8217;t have converted to Islam if they were hardcore idol worshipers in the first place? No true followers of whatever faith give up their religion regardless of what price they have to pay. And since the Hindus are the bravest creatures to ever walk this earth, it&#8217;s simply illogical to assume that one could coerce them into conversion and/or corrupt their immense knowledge. Keeping this in mind, one could safely say that there is not a snowball&#8217;s chance in hell that forced mass conversion ever happened.




> The thing is people like u hate India because u think that Hindus who were under ur rule have broken free



Yes, we do think Hindus that were under the Islamic rule for like a thousand years or so have broken loose for quite some time now. Happy now?




> But ur wet dreams will never be fullfilled .


That&#8217;s exactly what your bigmouthed rajas used to say until they had to admit that the wet dreams of the Muslims weren&#8217;t that wet actually. Ah, the same old Hindu mentality!
I know &#8216;L&#8217; is your favorite letter for some unknown reason. But, it&#8217;s &#8216;fulfilled&#8217; not &#8216;fullfilled&#8217; by the way.




> I am sick of this 1000 year rule boast every time to satisfy oneself.



I know it&#8217;s hurting you but have to satisfy myself after all.



> Just try to do what ur so called glorified crusaders did now, u will join them even before u know.



You got us begging for mercy, please forgive us! Hum narial &#8230;&#8230;...


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## Spitfighter

Solomon2 said:


> *I hope Kashmiris get their referendum. Question is, how will Pakistan react if Kashmiris choose independence rather than union with either India or Pakistan?* The GoP didn't like it when Pakistan sent infiltrators into Kashmir back in 1965 and the Kashmiris rejected them and called upon the India to kick them out; open war with India ensued. Does anybody want to see a repeat, on an even larger and deadlier scale?



That isn't a choice as per the UNSC resolutions, which highlights their irrelevance in this day and age.


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## Solomon2

Spitfighter said:


> That isn't a choice as per the UNSC resolutions, which highlights their irrelevance in this day and age.


I think you are right. Nevertheless, it might be best if this was an option, rather than the currently polarized winner-takes-all approach. The Pakistanis here say they can handle an independent Kashmir, which if true should greatly decrease tensions between India and Pakistan.


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## Dash

Dance said:


> Bhagat Singh was considered a freedom fighter so does that mean he's terrorist and not innocent. Cause according to you can't be a freedom fighter and an innocent


First you need tto differentiate who is Bhagat singh and who is a terrorist.
Bhagat singh wasnt fighting for majority of Sikhs rather a whole country.

get your facts right.


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## Dash

Solomon2 said:


> I think you are right. Nevertheless, it might be best if this was an option, rather than the currently polarized winner-takes-all approach. The Pakistanis here say they can handle an independent Kashmir, which if true should greatly decrease tensions between India and Pakistan.


The independent kashmir belongs to three communities.
1. Muslims
2. Hindus
3. Buddhists

Where the sole idea to turn kashmir into a muslim states and use it against idea. not all educated people in Pakistan will want this but the idea of majority is this.

An independent kashmir is as volatile as it is now. It will not bring much change.


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## Solomon2

^^^^
Then a workable approach would be for Pakistan and India to have in place mutually agreed-upon security plans BEFORE such a referendum, taking in account all three possibilities. (A proposal for doing so could also break the current diplomatic deadlock.)


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## S_O_C_O_M

*WKDA stages protest in New York ​*





WKDA Staging protest


World Kashmiri Diaspora Alliance (WKDA) today staged a protest in front of United Nation World Headquarters in New York demanding end of human right abuses and withdrawal of Indian occupation Forces. The protest was joined by New Yorkers who showed their solidarity with Kashmir. Farooq papa who heads the WKDA showed his appreciation for the efforts of members of the alliances in making the voices heard in the high echelons of UN.

The protest was attended by several Kashmiris from valley including a well known Kashmiri attorney at Law in the state of New York Mr. Zouhour Wani. Meanwhile in Brussels WKDA organized an awareness meeting in which Kashmir Council EU Chairman Syed Ali Reza lauded the efforts of World Kashmir Diaspora Alliance for taking steps to unify the Kashmiri Diaspora so that the voice of Kashmirs is given a meaningful representation in the power centers of International Community.

WKDA stages protest in New York


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## DesiGuy

what kind of source you have provided??


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## Spitfighter

I counted a whole 15 people. There were more protesters at Lindsay Lohan's trial.

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## ramu

DesiGuy said:


> what kind of source you have provided??



He is on a anti- India campaign ... he can't take time off to post replies to threads he has started.

Anyways, We have anti China campaign in London with protests for free Tibet all the time. That means nothing.


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## somya

whats the use of this protest. Living in comfort of america and then in lunch time coming out with these Banner. We have see such things in India- Australia match in Australia in 1980s if somebody remember. But is Punjab a seperate country?
These tactics only create some sensation in fuzzy brains.


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## Hulk

Ahh if they are Kashmiri's I must appreacite they learned how to protest, getting out of terrorism mentality.

So finally terrorism is replacing protest as new trend. They started with stone pelting and no decency is coming maybe.


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## somebozo

Holding protest is a fashion these days..expect some designer to come in with pro-protest and anti-protest trends in future.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*India fails on Kashmir again​*
Monday, July 19, 2010
By Abdul Zahoor Khan Marwat

The recent Pakistan-India talks have failed to produce results on account of the stubborn Indian attitude. For some people, the outcome of the recent talks may be a surprise. 

But for many in Pakistan, it was expected keeping in view the fact that New Delhi has always adopted an unrealistic attitude towards resolution of the core issue, Kashmir, the burning problem of the region for which a solution has to be found to move forward. Unfortunately, this time too, it was not to be so. 

Political observers are of the view that the continuation of dialogue process is the only way forward for any amicable settlement of outstanding disputes between India and Pakistan. However, till the time Indian government is not forced by domestic pressures (uprising in Kashmir, North, East or elsewhere) for resumption of meaningful dialogue with Pakistan, India will never be serious in any dialogue and thus the fate of Kashmir will continue to hang in the balance. 

The world community needs to be made aware that resolution of Kashmir issue is a prerequisite for peace and stability in the region because of the ensuing factors. 

First, the problem has led to three wars between Pakistan and India and continues to be the linchpin that would determine the fate of the region. For any sane person, Kashmir, therefore, is one issue that has to be taken up and resolved urgently and justly so that it does not once again erupt in an another Indo-Pak war. 

Second, the Kashmir issue tends to boil up from time to time on account of human rights abuses committed by the Indian forces. At present, the valley is again in turmoil as Indian forces have carried out fake encounters, killing innocent Kashmiris and then terming them as infiltrators. If the issue is amicably resolved, the frustration of the Kashmiris would ebb. 

Third, a flare-up between Pakistan and India on Kashmir is dangerous for the region as both countries are overt nuclear powers. As such, the world wants India to adopt a realistic attitude towards the resolution of the problem. Everybody realises this but not New Delhi. 

Fourth, India cannot continue to push the Kashmir issue under the carpet on account of the Mumbai attacks. The policy to make the relationship between the two countries hostage to Mumbai will not work in the long term. 

According to an influential American think tank, the RAND Corporation, the US should take an active role in resolving the Kashmir dispute. It says that this policy would complicate bilateral relations in the short term but the long-term benefits would be worthwhile. 

It adds that Kashmir poses a serious challenge to the counter-terrorism coalition of which Pakistan is a key member. This opinion is shared by most independent analysts and observers throughout the world. So the plain fact is that India cannot continue to hide behind curtains on the Kashmir issue. As the time passes, more complications in the resolution of the Kashmir issue could arise.

India fails on Kashmir again


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## ramu

> According to an influential American think tank, the RAND Corporation, the US should take an active role in resolving the Kashmir dispute.



Last I heard Hillary Clinton talked about ,


Wanted to know where Osama is
Said some real surprises came up in the investigation with David Headley

*Not interest in mediating on Kashmir*
Wanted Pakistan to give trade access to Afghan through Pakistan

...


----------



## S_O_C_O_M

ramu said:


> Last I heard Hillary Clinton talked about ,
> 
> 
> Wanted to know where Osama is
> Said some real surprises came up in the investigation with David Headley
> 
> *Not interest in mediating on Kashmir*
> Wanted Pakistan to give trade access to Afghan through Pakistan
> 
> ...



She just said that to make you babies stop crying and nothing more. And then she gave Pakistan 7.5 billion dollars. Hahahahahahahahahaha.


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## kashith

Kashmir is a non issue,we can discuss water rights,and terror campaigns.that is it

---------- Post added at 01:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:38 AM ----------




S_O_C_O_M said:


> She just said that to make you babies stop crying and nothing more. And then she gave Pakistan 7.5 billion dollars. Hahahahahahahahahaha.



well spend this money on welfare projects and the results would be good for both countries.


----------



## prototype

S_O_C_O_M said:


> She just said that to make you babies stop crying and nothing more. And then she gave Pakistan 7.5 billion dollars. Hahahahahahahahahaha.



ant they say India is a poor country lol,we dont feed ourselves with american money


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## ramu

S_O_C_O_M said:


> She just said that to make you babies stop crying and nothing more. And then she gave Pakistan 7.5 billion dollars. Hahahahahahahahahaha.




I thought it was Pakistan that needed all the attention. It was a strategic summit with Pakistan but Hillary was trying to address Indian concerns. Shows how hilarious your grasp of world affairs is. 

Yes, and your country has no independent foreign policy after you suck up to the money thrown at you.


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## ramu

S_O_C_O_M said:


> She just said that to make you babies stop crying and nothing more. And then she gave Pakistan 7.5 billion dollars. Hahahahahahahahahaha.



ON One thread you talk about Indian poverty and on the other the aid given to you by America is glorified. The relationship between US and Pakistan is as described by Imran Khan.

India is the American ally and Pakistan is the hitman.


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## ramu

Post reported.


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## SpArK

ramu said:


> ON One thread you talk about Indian poverty and on the other the aid given to you by America is glorified. The relationship between US and Pakistan is as described by Imran Khan.
> 
> India is the American ally and Pakistan is the hitman.



Ramu, try avoiding him. Why lower our standard to these pathetic ones. 

Let him have all the excitement of posting around senseless things and pics copy pasted and have a feild day in the internet. 

Just try ignoring him..because some loosers will try to go personal when they have no brains but doing same is not advisable for other members due to lack of immunity.

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## ramu

BENNY said:


> Ramu, try avoiding him. Why lower our standard to these pathetic ones.
> 
> Let him have all the excitement of posting around senseless things and pics copy pasted and have a filed day in the forum.
> 
> Just try ignoring him..because some loosers will try to go personal when they have no brains but doing same is not advasiable for other members due to lack of immunity.



You are right and I know that... I will try ...

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## ramu

Reported again ...


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## SpArK

ramu said:


> You are right and I know that... I will try ...



Its simple see. without attention these ones dont survive. Lets keep it tidy and debate in a civilized manner. 

why bother replying to foul mouths or even listen to them?

Simple but effective.


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## S_O_C_O_M

who started with the foul mouth, insults, take a good luck at yourself before you point fingers at others. followed me in Pakistan's powerful military and opened your mentally disabled mouth in your first post without any actual debating. silly people....


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## Hawk Eyes

it seems like india is failing at everything. they failed in afghanistan now they have repeatedly failed in kashmir. 

its time for india to pull out of kashmir otherwise pakistan will have no choice but to remove them.


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## somebozo

Yaar leave Indians alone..sometimes..its not good to rant all the time like zee tv...what will be the difference remain between you and them! 

US knows mediating Kashmir will be nothing but waste of valuable time and loss of lurcative weapon deals. Pakistan wont agree and India wont agree..US will run circles and circles.


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## Hawk Eyes

somebozo said:


> Yaar leave Indians alone..sometimes..its not good to rant all the time.



like your posts are intelligent?


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## Dance

Spitfighter said:


> Walaikum assalam.
> 
> 
> 
> While we're on the topic, is Facebook still banned in Pakistan?



No it is not. Sorry to bust your dreams


----------



## Dance

indianrabbit said:


> First Only representative of Kashmir's have the right to say that Kashmir wants freedom. It cannot be India saying they do not or Pakistani saying they want.
> 
> So far the first struggle is do we have a clear representative of Kashmir who can say majority want's freedom?
> 
> Once that is done then anyone fighting for freedom can be termed as freedom fighter.
> 
> The UN resolution that people talk about does not have any representation from Kashmir and only has India and Pakistan representation, so that cannot be used to say Kashmir want's freedom as it is not their voice period.
> 
> So if you them want's to call a Kashmiri fighting in Kashmir as Freedom fighter, then even people in Baluchistan can be called freedom fighter.



I don't get why you indians can't get in in your heads that Balochistan and Kashmir cannot be compared. Balochistan isn't a disputed territory, Kashmir is. I've noticed that whenever indians run out of things to say they always bring in Balochistan. Do we ever bring in your God knows how many insurgencies/ independence movements. No


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

For that pakistan needs to withdraw all illegal settlers from ***,take back land given to china, and then start withdrawing army..when its done you have the right to talk about it..or else shut up.


----------



## Ras

Solomon2 said:


> I think you are right. Nevertheless, it might be best if this was an option, rather than the currently polarized winner-takes-all approach. The Pakistanis here say they can handle an independent Kashmir, which if true should greatly decrease tensions between India and Pakistan.



India can't settle for an independent Kashmir...India will never ever let go of the water sources. No country in her position would do it. Kashmiris better get used to it and get on with their lives.India holds all the cards here...what can Pakistan possibly offer for loss of Indian control.The current unrest is nothing...the real danger in Kashmir breaking away was in the early 90's when violence was real bad and India was nearly bankrupt.Hardly the same situation today.

On a similar theme will Israel give back the Golan heights?..no fcking way.


----------



## Spitfighter

Dance said:


> No it is not. Sorry to bust your dreams



How about your blasphemy laws?


----------



## Spitfighter

Solomon2 said:


> I think you are right. Nevertheless, it *might be best* if this was an option, rather than the currently polarized winner-takes-all approach. The Pakistanis here say they can handle an independent Kashmir, which if true should greatly decrease tensions between India and Pakistan.



That's probably the worst option, the last thing the sub continent needs is another partition on religious grounds. The LoC must be recognized as the border, and it is as far as we're concerned.


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## Solomon2

Water rights can be negotiated. So you Indians _choose_ to be comfortable with Kashmir's status as a disputed territory and continuous terror war with the prospect of major war with Pakistan always on the horizon? You're making Kashmir the Alsace of the subcontinent, and that can't be good, not for the Kashmiris, not for the Pakistanis, and not for yourselves.


----------



## Ras

Solomon2 said:


> Water rights can be negotiated. So you Indians _choose_ to be comfortable with Kashmir's status as a disputed territory and continuous terror war with the prospect of major war with Pakistan always on the horizon? You're making Kashmir the Alsace of the subcontinent, and that can't be good, not for the Kashmiris, not for the Pakistanis, and not for yourselves.



Water deals can be negotiated but nothing beats having actual control of them.Again will Israel give up Golan heights...which is undisputed Syrian territory.

I can't speak for the Indian government but looking from the outside...status quo is not a bad option for them. Kashmir is no crippling drain on Indian resources anymore so why not maintain the current position?

I laugh whenever I hear of negotiations about Kashmir between India and Pakistan. India does not want to change status quo and there is nothing Pakistan can offer so talks will always fail. Musharaff was the only leader of Pakistan who understood that and so instead of demanding that India give up Kashmir he negotiated for a soft border and withdrawal of the Indian army to minimal levels.His deal is the best Pakistan can hope for under the current circumstances.


----------



## deckingraj

Ras said:


> Water deals can be negotiated but nothing beats having actual control of them.Again will Israel give up Golan heights...which is undisputed Syrian territory.
> 
> I can't speak for the Indian government but looking from the outside...status quo is not a bad option for them. Kashmir is no crippling drain on Indian resources anymore so why not maintain the current position?
> 
> I laugh whenever I hear of negotiations about Kashmir between India and Pakistan. India does not want to change status quo and there is nothing Pakistan can offer so talks will always fail. Musharaff was the only leader of Pakistan who understood that and so instead of demanding that India give up Kashmir he negotiated for a soft border and withdrawal of the Indian army to minimal levels.*His deal is the best Pakistan can hope for under the current circumstances.*



You are absolutely right...When we did not buckle under pressure when we were on the verge of bankruptcy...Kashmir boiling complemented with Punjab breeding terrorism(Thanks to our loving neighbours) what makes anybody believe that second fastest growing economy...a nuclear power will let go Kashmir and its precious water resources??? MMS has said on records and in a way echoed what his predecessors have said and what his successors will say...i.e. "there is not going to be change in boundaries"....


----------



## EjazR

*SC upholds life sentence for killer of Mirwaiz's father - India - The Times of India*

NEW DELHI: More than 20 years after militants gunned down then Mirwaiz Moulvi Farooq at his residence in Srinagar, the Supreme Court on Wednesday upheld the conviction and life sentence to Hizbul Mujahideen militant Mohammad Ayub Dar for the murder.

A Bench comprising Justices V S Sirpurkar and M K Sharma dismissed an appeal filed by Dar, who was convicted by a Jammu and Kashmir TADA court on March 8 last year and sentenced to life imprisonment. "There is no merit in the appeal and it is dismissed," the Bench said. The TADA court had also imposed a fine of Rs 6,000 on Dar.

The killing of Mirwaiz Moulvi Farooq on May 21, 1990, had led to massive protests in the Valley. A month later, his then 17-year-old son Umar Farooq was appointed Mirwaiz.

On May 21, 1990, three terrorists entered Mirwaiz Moulvi Farooq's house and shot him. Farooq succumbed to his injuries at the Soura Hospital in Srinagar. The case was transferred to the CBI on June 11, 1990. Accused Abdul Rehman Shingan, alias Inayat, was arrested on September 20, 1990.

Shingan had confessed that he along with Mohammad Ayub Dar and Zahoor Ahmed entered Farooq's office armed with pistols and shot him. Shingan had died during the pendency of the trial. Accused Javed Ahmed, alias Ajmal Khan, and Zahoor Ahmed, alias Bilal, are absconding.


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## EjazR

*Kashmir Images :: Don&#8217;t go Taliban way: Qureshi*
Srinagar, July 22: Democratic Liberation Party (DLP) chairman, Hashim Qureshi while taking strong exception to Hurriyat (G) dictate that parents should arrange teaching facilities to their kids at home instead of schools, has said that those who have given this programme were worst than Taliban.

&#8220;Taliban in Afghanistan banned girl education alone but here the Huriyat (G) has put a blanket ban on the academic including boys too,&#8221; he said.
&#8220;We condemn and agitate killing of Kashmiri youth by armed forces; we strive for a lasting solution of Kashmir but; we can&#8217;t support those who want our new generation to be unlettered and uneducated,&#8221; Qureshi said.
Qureshi said that even if Kashmir gets freedom, it needs educated people and therefore closing down of schools was in no way going to help the people.
He said that Taliban, during their rule in Afghanistan had banned girl education but &#8220;here entire educational system was being targeted.&#8221;


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## EjazR

*Kashmir Images :: Govt wakes up to students&#8217; plight, finally*

Srinagar, July 22: The government today directed the heads of the educational institutions, district- and zonal-level officers to ensure attendance of the teaching staff in their respective schools. In a circular issued by the Education department, the Deputy Commissioners have been asked to constitute
monitoring squads at district, zonal-levels to monitor the attendance of teachers. The concerned directors shall also monitor and check the attendance of the teaching staff, the circular said.
According to the circular, the services of the absentee &#8216;Rehabar-e-Taleem&#8217; and contractual teachers shall be immediately dispensed with and replacement made by the concerned ZEO on the basis of merit in the village/habitation/ward.
The teaching staff found unauthorizedly absent shall immediately be placed under suspension by the Chief Education Officers and the persons with highest qualification in the area shall be appointed in leave arrangement in their places for smooth conduct of the classes, the circular said, adding the teachers placed under the suspension will not be reinstated except with prior approval of the government.
The heads of the educational institutions have been asked to ensure that the syllabus is completed and the slippage in the academic schedule is bridged. Meanwhile, the civil society in general and parents in particular have been requested to extend cooperation to the administration in ensuring smooth functioning of the educational institutions.
Meanwhile, the Minister for Education and Public Enterprises, Peerzada Mohammad Sayeed has ordered constitution of special squads and monitoring committees to check attendance of teachers in all the educational institutions of the Valley. These committees have been asked to carry out surprise inspections to ensure presence of teaching as well as non-teaching staff.
The Minister said this while addressing a meeting of Education Officers of the Valley. The meeting was convened to take stock of functioning of educational institutions in the prevailing situation.
These committees have been asked to submit their inspection reports to Director School Education, who after compilation will send these reports to the Administrative department.
Peerzada asked the officers to call parent meetings and motivate them for sending their wards regularly to the schools.
&#8220;We can&#8217;t afford academic loss to our younger generation which holds promise for progress and prosperity of the state,&#8221; he said.
The Minister called for taking effective measures to ensure the educational system is not affected in the prevailing situation, suggesting conduct of extra classes to make good the academic loss.
The Minister also warned the ReTs and contractual teachers to attend their duties regularly or else they will be replaced by other qualified eligible candidates of their localities.
He said departmental identity cards shall be treated as curfew passes, in case such restrictions are imposed anywhere.
Earlier, the meeting held threadbare discussions on the feasibility of establishing schools under RMSA, undertaking construction and renovation of school buildings. It was impressed upon the concerned officers to speed up the pace of construction of school buildings and complete them within a fixed time-frame.
*The senior officers of the meeting briefed the Minister about the status of academic schedules. It was informed that more than 90 percent schools remain open in rural areas of the Valley and function normally.*
Secretary Education, G A Peer, Director School Education, Shugfta Parveen, Chairman, State Board of School Education, D B Gupta, District Education Planning Officers, Chief Educations Officers and Principals of State Institute of the Valley attended the meeting.


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## EjazR

*Kashmir Images :: Bizarre Protestors!*

Srinagar, July 22: A truck of Srinagar Municipal Corporation (SMC) was set ablaze by a group of youth at Zoonimar Srinagar today.

Sources said that as garbage has piled up in several old city areas due to curfew and strikes, SMC is trying to remove the same to undo the threat of epidemic.
However, when a garbage collecting truck of SMC, bearing registration number JK01L-2261 reached Zonimar, a group of stone pelters asked the driver and his colleagues to come out and then set the truck ablaze, sources said.
Though the driver pleaded that they were here to clean the area of the garbage, the young brigade were not ready to listen, sources added.
AND THE GARBAGE CONTINUES TO PILE UP.

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## Areesh

EjazR said:


> *Kashmir Images :: Bizarre Protestors!*
> 
> Srinagar, July 22: A truck of Srinagar Municipal Corporation (SMC) was set ablaze by a group of youth at Zoonimar Srinagar today.
> 
> Sources said that as garbage has piled up in several old city areas due to curfew and strikes, SMC is trying to remove the same to undo the threat of epidemic.
> However, when a garbage collecting truck of SMC, bearing registration number JK01L-2261 reached Zonimar, a group of stone pelters asked the driver and his colleagues to come out and then set the truck ablaze, sources said.
> Though the driver pleaded that they were here to clean the area of the garbage, the young brigade were not ready to listen, sources added.
> *AND THE GARBAGE CONTINUES TO PILE UP*.



If it is about garbage than IA is already present in huge number in IOK.

So no problem if this garbage piles up.


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## mnmaria20

this is a very excellent site, and we proud at this web site, all the Newspaper launched the defence production and new invention newses, as this site is giving the information.


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## Fighter488

*Omar plans to release Hurriyat separatists ​*



Srinagar: In an attempt to restore peace across the troubled Valley, J&K chief minister Omar Abdullah is contemplating release of separatist leaders like Hurriyat Conference chief Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who is currently in jail under the Public Safety Act. 
Sources said Omar was likely to take a decision to this effect in next fetw days. On Thursday, the working committee of the ruling National Conference had advised the chief minister to release separatist leaders from jails for improving law and order situation and restoring peace in 
the Valley. 
Others likely to be released included Democratic Liberation Front leader Shabir Shah and Mirwaiz-led Hurriyats Nayeem Khan and two lawyers, Main Abdul Qayoom and G N Shaheen, also members of Geelanis Hurriyat. 
Meanwhile, curfew was reimposed in parts of the J&K capital, Bandipora and Kupwara districts and Sopore town on Friday in view of Khanqah-E-Moula shrine chalo call given by Geelani-led Hurriyat Conference to protest recent killings by security forces. 
SHO of Pattan police station in Baramulla district Faiz Ahmad Shah was injured during skirmishes between protesters and cops. Reports reaching Srinagar said Shah got bullet injuries when one of the protesters fired at him. 
Shops and educational institutions remained closed and transport off roads in response to Hurriyats week-long shutdown call which is part of the outfits Quit Kashmir programme. Elsewhere in the Valley, restrictions continued on the movement of people. TNN 

*Hizb chief asks separatists to end strikes: *

Hizbul Mujahideen chief Syed Sallahuddin asked Kashmiri separatists to end politics of frequent shutdowns as it was adversely affecting education and economy of J&K. The HM chief said, Freedom struggle in not a matter of twothree days... continuous hartals in the Valley have affected students education and economy of the state. TNN


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## Spring Onion

The old man is being arrested every now and then by Indian State terrorists in Held Kashmir.

Whats new in it. After all Puppet Omar cant keep him in jail for long sans any crime


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## EjazR

Jana said:


> The old man is being arrested every now and then by Indian State terrorists in Held Kashmir.
> 
> Whats new in it. After all Puppet Omar cant keep him in jail for long sans any crime



Jana what happens to those Kashmiris or people from GilgitBatistan who want to conduct open rallies for independnace from Pakistan? Are they given a free platform?

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## EjazR

*Jihad is back on agenda - it is official*
Dr Shabir Choudhry 21 July 2010

It might be terrorism elsewhere, but it is still &#8216;holy jihad&#8217; in Kashmir. Despite being an important partner in so called &#8216;war on terrorism&#8217;, this is the real policy of Islamabad; and they make no attempt to even hide that.
This message was reiterated in very aggressively in a public rally held in Muzafarabad, Pakistani Occupied Kashmir, which was organized by United Jihad Council, a coalition of militant groups set up by ISI to fight India. The rally had full support of Pakistani Occupied Kashmir; and the Prime Minister of this territory Raja Farooq Haider Khan thundered: "Let me assure you that every home in Kashmir will become a bunker against India." Apart from that Syed Salahuddin, Chairman of UJC said:
"It is mandatory for every child in every street to wage war against India to bring it down to its knees."
Those who have interest in ascertaining as to why Krishna Qureshi talks failed have to look at timing of this message. This show of public strength in Muzaffarabad (in a place like Muzaffarabad they managed to muster around four thousand people) and strong resolve was demonstrated one day before the Indian delegation headed by Indian Minister for External Affairs S M Krishna was reaching Islamabad to begin dialogue to promote &#8216;peace&#8217; and cooperation.
Also this strong stance has to be viewed in the context of recent unrest in the Valley, which Pakistan has very smartly &#8216;staged&#8217; and made India defensive, especially on issue of human rights abuses. Furthermore, it has to be viewed in the context of the conflict between the two countries over the issue of Kishenganga Hydroelectric Project. Both countries after failing to resolve differences over this project have decided to refer it to Court of Arbitration.

On reaching Islamabad the Indian Minister for External Affairs S M Krishna said: &#8220;I am here with a message of peace and friendship. India wants to resolve all the issues with Pakistan through a process of dialogue&#8221;. But how could you hold a dialogue and have peace when guns are out and roaring on both sides of the LOC, in which innocent people perish?

I have been pointing out contradictions in the Pakistani policies on terrorism for a long time, but not much attention was given to this. I was the first to blow the whistle that Lashkar e Taiba, a declared terrorist group possessed huge piece of land in mountains near Muzaffarabad to continue indoctrination and training of militants that they could be used to advance cause of &#8216;jihad&#8217;.

In a seminar organised by Interfaith International during eleventh session of the UN Human Rights Council on 10 June 2009, I said:

&#8216;Moreover Lashker E Tayeba, a banned terrorist group has purchased a land of 200 kanals in district Muzaffarabad in Pakistani Administered Kashmir. This land transaction could only be done with the help of Pakistani establishment, as legally no Pakistani individual or organisation could purchase land in any part of the State. It is clear that Lashker E Tayeba is known for its terrorism and violence and could not be expected to run courses on peace studies, conflict resolution or human rights&#8217;.

This news was later on confirmed by a report of BBC, here is the web link:
?BBC Urdu? - ????????? - ??????? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ???????
Abbas Butt, Chairman of Kashmir National Party said, &#8220;There is no ambiguity in Pakistan&#8217;s policy on terrorism. If there is a bomb blast in Balochistan or any other part of Pakistan, even if carried out by a disgruntled Pakistani, it is terrorism. But if a bomb blast takes place in Srinagar, even when it is carried out by a Pakistani, Afghani, Egyptian or Bangladeshi who has been trained by Pakistan and sent across with weapons by them as well, it is surely a Jihad. Despite that if some countries don&#8217;t understand or don&#8217;t want to understand then it is not Pakistan&#8217;s fault.&#8221;
Anyhow, as expected the talks failed, because both delegations had different priorities. India&#8217;s priorities were an end to infiltration, terrorism and action against culprits of Mumbai carnage; and Pakistan&#8217;s priorities were human rights abuses in the Valley and issues related to water. As far as India&#8217;s priorities were concerned Pakistani government put their cards on table by facilitating a big rally in Muzaffarbad in which call of Jihad was reiterated. It was declared that jihad was must and India must be brought &#8220;down to its knees."
India had its reluctance to show any flexibility on issues related to the Kashmir dispute, whether that is water, human rights or future of the State. However, in view of many experts the Muzaffarabad event coupled with other activities coordinated by Pakistani establishment sealed the fate of the dialogue before even it started.
In view of some experts, India is not too keen to negotiate any deal with leaders who have no power to deliver, as Pakistan has more than one centre of power. It is difficult to tell who actually holds power: is it the President, the Prime Minister, the Parliament or the army. Despite the civilian outlook many believe it is the army which calls shots in foreign affairs, especially related to India, Kashmir and Afghanistan.
Ayesha Siddiqa, an expert on defence related issues commented, &#8216;Shah Mehmood Qureshi was not keen to be viewed by the military establishment at home as being soft on India&#8230;.. The military's top management neither took ownership of Musharraf's peace initiative nor did it agree with his proposals on the Kashmir dispute.&#8217; Shah Mehmood Qureshi enjoys &#8216;cordial relations&#8217; with the army top brass, and he had to show that, unlike President Zardari, he was tough when it comes to dealing with India
Pakistan&#8217;s tussle with India is no longer only related to water, Siachin Glacier, Sir Crick, terrorism, infiltration and future of the State of Jammu and Kashmir; but they are also actively confronting each other in Afghanistan. Both India and Pakistan know that America and other forces of occupation will have to leave one day, and both countries are competing to fill in the vacuum.
Future, stability and type of government in Afghanistan is of great interest to both countries. India doesn&#8217;t like extremism or Taliban like government in Afghanistan, but if Taliban are defeated and there is &#8216;stability&#8217; in Afghanistan with a pro Pakistan government, then many experts think hordes of tribesmen will rush to Kashmir for Jihad, as they did in past. Also this will have tremendous impact on Indian plans for the region and especially Central Asia.
According to Indian claims infiltration has increased by 40&#37;. Local people in Pakistani Administered Kashmir also confirm increased activities by Jihadi outfits, but exact percentage of infiltration could not be ascertained. Pakistan, of course, denies this charge, and Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi has strongly said: "Infiltration is not the policy of Pakistan or any intelligence agency of Pakistan.&#8230;But if there are individuals who have crossed over, deal with them firmly."
Some Indian commentators read this statement in the following sense: &#8216;Pakistan will keep on sending terrorists across the LOC, and it is for India to decide how to deal with them&#8217;. It is believed, either Pakistan is unable or unwilling to comply with the demands of India with regard to terrorism and Mumbai carnage; and despite policy of non interference Pakistan will not stop infiltration of militants and jihad will continue in Kashmir.
This policy will not only throw a spanner in any peace talks, but it will also have disastrous impact on people of Jammu and Kashmir on both sides of the LOC. My request to those who have some say in policy making and its execution is, please stop this &#8216;blood trade&#8217; in name of &#8216;jihad&#8217;. We people of Jammu and Kashmir have already suffered too much. Like anyone else we also want peace, stability and economic prosperity. We also want to live with dignity and honour and enjoy fruits of independence.

The kind of jihad you people have imposed on us will only make our lives worse. It provides an excuse to people in uniform to commit human rights abuses. In any case, Kashmir dispute is not a religious dispute. Don&#8217;t divide us in name of religion. This strategy will never win us independence; and we don&#8217;t want to be part of any country. Our struggle is for united and independent Jammu and Kashmir which could not be achieved in name of religion.

_Writer is Director Diplomatic Committee of Kashmir National Party, political analyst and author of many books and booklets. Also he is Director Institute of
Kashmir Affairs.Email:drshabirchoudhry@gmail.com_


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## EjazR

*Omar seeks 30,000 new Kashmiri cops to replace CRPF*

New Delhi: Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah on Saturday called for induction of 30,000 Kashmiri men and women into the state police to enable them to progressively take over law and order responsibilities from the paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force.

Unemployment was the biggest problem facing the state with 5.9 lakh youth registered at the state's district employment centres, Abdullah said in his address at the National Development Council meeting here.

Referring to the recent violent incidents in Kashmir valley, he said it had caused untold pain and agony but said the incidents had been 'instigated by forces inimical to peace'.

'While our hearts go out to the families who have lost their near and dear ones, it must be recognised that such incidents are a disturbing demonstration of the continued instigation of innocent people by forces inimical to peace.'

Abdullah also called for amendments to the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) and re-orientation of the security forces to deal with the changing security situation in the state.

'Amendments to the Armed Forces Special Powers Act and reorientation of the security forces to the changing security situation in the state will create the necessary enabling environment for restoring, to a certain extent, the pride and self-esteem of our people,' he said.

Abdullah said that he was aware that pursuing 'an agenda of principled politics and good governance was not an easy task'.

He said that Jammu and Kashmir was not a problem of economics but politics and called upon the central government to start an internal dialogue with diverse political opinion in the state.

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## SpArK

I have suggested in one of the thread that all the youth of the army should be taken to armed forces and to local forces and it is actually becoming real.

Cheers.


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## Justin Joseph

Omar is immature we need someone like Farooq Abdullah as CM. Because Omar is having the same problem as Manmohan Singh both can't take tough and swift decisions.

Everything is in control in Kashmir but Omar gave no power to police to act against rioters and the foreign funded puppets acted on script.

*The need of hour is Kashmir is strong leadership and eradication of corruption so that local poor Kashmir gets the benefits that government of India releases for them from Delhi.*


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## jbond197

A very good move.. few of those stone pelter will get a full time job shooting down the terrorists.. Good Job Omar!!


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## Areesh

EjazR said:


> Jana what happens to those Kashmiris or people from GilgitBatistan who want to conduct open rallies for independnace from Pakistan? Are they given a free platform?



They don't get enough support to have a suitable protest or rally and thus cancel their rally.

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## KS

Areesh said:


> They don't get enough support to have a suitable protest or rally and thus cancel their rally.



Not Enough support from the puppet P-O-K govt...isnt it..?


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## Dance

Karthic Sri said:


> Not Enough support from the *puppet* P-O-K govt...isnt it..?



Oh the irony, what do you call Omar Abdullah?


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## KS

Areesh said:


> If it is about garbage *then IA is already present in huge number in IOK.*
> 
> So no problem if this garbage piles up.



And the stink (read bullets) from the garbage is sending the freedom fighters (read terrorists) to meet their maker.

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## Dance

Karthic Sri said:


> Democratically elected Chief Minister of the state of Jammu and Kashmir in the elections held by the Election Commission of India,voted by the people of the Jammu and Kashmir as Indians



Since when did Kashmiris become indian  He's def not popular, a lot of Kashmiris call him a puppet and dislike him


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## Swift

Dance said:


> Since when did Kashmiris become indian  *He's def not popular*, a lot of Kashmiris *call him a puppet and dislike him*



Lots of people say the same to Zardari.


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## Dance

Swift said:


> Lots of people say the same to Zardari.



Yeah because its true, he's not liked in Pakistan.


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## KS

Dance said:


> *Since when did Kashmiris become indian * He's def not popular, a lot of Kashmiris call him a puppet and dislike him



Sorry dont know the exact date ..but long before "modern" India or Pakistan were in existance.


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## Hafizzz

> India's strategy of suppression in Kashmir could backfire
> India&#39;s strategy of suppression in Kashmir could backfire - Yahoo! News
> 
> Srinagar, India  Carefully, in ones and twos, residents of Srinagar emerged from their homes for the first time in a week to pray at small mosques Friday.
> 
> Prayers were tense. The city's larger mosques remain blocked by police for the fourth week following the government's imposition of a strict curfew in June, and thousands of Indian security forces were ready to swoop in on any potential protests among pro-independence activists.
> 
> Police say only four protests occurred across the Indian-controlled Kashmir region. One protest in Srinagar swelled to 1,000 people, though tear gas quickly broke its ranks. In the village of Palhalan, someone from within the protest crowd shot a police officer twice in the leg.
> 
> But separatist leaders and police officials are now warning that the governments apparent strategy of curfews and suppression lacks a political roadmap and could, in the long run, send the current generation of rock-throwing boys back to the gun-and-grenade warfare that dominated the 1990s. Human rights groups say 19 civilians have died since June 11 in clashes between protesters and security officials.
> 
> Kashmir back to the futureYou have the environment that you can push the people again toward what had started in the early '90s. But we don't want that to happen, says Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, one of the two top separatist leaders. Both are currently under house arrest. Today boys are out pelting stones. Tomorrow these are the same boys who will probably pick up the gun. 
> 
> He and most Kashmiris say their struggle is not religious at its root, but about self-determination. However, Mr. Farooq warns that the closure of main mosques  smaller mosques have remained open  starts down a dangerous path.
> 
> âIf the government is not letting the people pray then itâs mandatory for the people at a certain time to declare war against the state. And I think this is something the muftis and the religious scholars will have to think about,â
> 
> What separatists wantNew Delhi has called for meetings that would involve a wide range of voices, including separatists. But before any dialogue begins, separatists have demanded an easing of draconian security laws, release of prisoners, and pullbacks of street forces. The two sides appear at a standoff.
> 
> Observers say tensions run deep across the region, with the influx of Indian security now immobilizing life in much of the Kashmir Valley.
> 
> For weeks, dogs and body-armored men have largely had the streets to themselves in downtown Srinagar, the regions largest city. Residents chalk slogans such as India Go Back and Go India Go over the roads, hinting at the pervasive frustration here.
> 
> The curfew and closure of retail shops has hurt residents, particularly day laborers, which adds pressure each passing day on separatist leaders to urge activists to stand down for now.
> 
> âThe patience of the people is running out," says Taj Mohudin, minister for irrigation in the Jammu and Kashmir state government. He is among four ministers who form a core group tasked with handling the situation. He says leaders in Delhi from the ruling Congress Party, of which he is a member, âare satisfied with the actions being done.â
> 
> As an elder politician, Mr. Mohudin says hes seen the full 60 years of the struggle in Kashmir for separation. They talk of independence, he says. As a Kashmiri, I feel that first we should be an economically viable state.
> 
> What rock pelting boys and young men sayConversations with half a dozen rock-pelters, however, revealed only optimism about the economic prospects of an independent Kashmir. None of the youths were themselves unemployed and they denied that economics were key to their motivations.
> 
> Because we are not allowed to protest democratically this is a natural consequence, says one youth, a doctorate student. We are not allowed to vent, so stone pelting becomes a spontaneous way to vent.
> 
> None of the youth would give their names for fear of police reprisal. After one interview, police descended on the neighborhood, sending the young men into hiding.
> 
> What comes first?There is a chicken-and-egg situation afoot: Police say they must stop rallies because they turn into rock-throwing mobs, while the rock-throwers say they must throw stones because they cannot rally and, when they do rally, innocents have been killed. Efforts to disperse crowds have resulted in deaths from tear canister shells, bullets, and drownings.
> 
> Paramilitary forces are equipped with bamboo shields, face grates, padding, and bullet-proof vests. Police with less. Conversations with members of both forces revealed most had been hit at one point with a stone. Despite their gear, crowds can overwhelm them, particularly from behind.
> 
> Police leaders, none of whom could go on record during the tensions, express frustration that they are being asked to solve what they say is ultimately a political problem.
> 
> One also warned that the Kashmir valley is a tinderbox full of former militants from the 1990s who cannot get jobs because of their past. Estimates range from 25,000 to 40,000 such men, and in recent years they have begun organizing. So far, little has been done to train them or to lift restrictions on getting work.



Stop the suppression in Kashmir


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## EjazR

Areesh said:


> They don't get enough support to have a suitable protest or rally and thus cancel their rally.



Or get locked up and threatened by agencies.  There is a rason why UNHCR, Freedo House and other groups declare Pakistani KAshmir including Gilgit Baltistan as "not free". While the Indian side is termed "partly free".

Did you know that pro-independance movements have been going on i Pakistani since the 50s? Read up on K.H Khursheed as well as khawaja Ghulam Nabi Gilkar and Mr. Daud who started a pro-independance party in Pakistan and Kashmir Independence Committee headed by Mr. G.M. Lone pro-independence leader who held ralliedeven in Rawalpindi. Ofcourse that freedom of expression lasted only till the 60s.

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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> And the stink (read bullets) from the garbage is sending the freedom fighters (read terrorists) to meet their maker.



Huh. Sorry I am not going to read as you said. Would take it in the same meaning without any brackets.



> And the stink from the garbage is sending the freedom fighters to meet their maker.



Now that looks a bit better. Thanks your IA do stink.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> Now that looks a bit better. Thanks your IA do stink.



huh..watever...Anything that makes the freedom fighters(terrorists) go up is good enough for me...

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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> huh..watever...Anything that makes the freedom fighters(terrorists) go up is good enough for me...



Huh and it is also good enough for me when ever I heard about a soldier from your so called army gets annihilated in IOK.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> Huh and it is also good enough for me when ever I heard about a soldier from your so called army gets annihilated in IOK.



no problemo...but good things seem to happen way more often to me than to u...

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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> no problemo...but good things seem to happen way more often to me than to u...



Yeah no problem when someone dies like a jerk in uniform in IOK.Those poor guys don't have any worth.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> Yeah no problem when someone dies like a jerk in uniform in IOK.Those poor guys don't have any worth.



jerk in uniform..??  u ll just piss in ur pants wen u hear bullets...

as i said..watever floats ur boat....for all i care those "jerks" seem to be doing a very fine job of sending some gentlemen on a one-way ticket.

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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> jerk in uniform..??  u ll just piss in ur pants wen u hear bullets...
> 
> as i said..watever floats ur boat....for all i care those "jerks" seem to be doing a very fine job of sending some gentlemen on a one-way ticket.



This is what you believe in your delusional world. Ask those jerks and they will tell you how many times they have to wash their pants after every encounter. What happens to their pants when they face the mob chanting for freedom.

No matter how many they kill, those poor guys in army uniform also know the fact it is futile. They also know sooner or later their as* has been created to be teared apart by those so called terrorists.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> This is what you believe in your delusional world. Ask those jerks and they will tell you how many times they have to wash their pants after every encounter. What happens to their pants when they face the mob chanting for freedom.
> 
> No matter how many they kill, those poor guys in army uniform also know the fact it is futile. They also know sooner or later their as* has been created to be teared apart by those so called terrorists.



hahaha good propaganda and the best part is ur telling im living in a delusional world.

can only laugh while some more terrorists are being hunted down like ---- in the forests of J&K. 

and as for washing their pants part - lol they have to after sucessfully spilling the blood of the terrorists.

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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> hahaha good propaganda and the best part is ur telling im living in a delusional world.
> 
> can only laugh while some more terrorists are being hunted down like ---- in the forests of J&K.



What propaganda. We all know this is just futile and a waste of time. Those jerks in uniform also know this. What propaganda dear? 

Wake up time it is for you and many other kids like you.


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## EjazR

*Kashmir Images :: Kashmir story &#8211; tragic, pathetic and sad*

Manzoor Anjum

It is almost one month, life in Valley is frozen. Tourists have abandoned Kashmir; hotels are deserted; shops and other business establishment are shut and schools are closed. Most of the people are confined to the four walls of their homes; play grounds are missing the jolly kicks of local footballers and ebullient hits of young cricketers. And little kids, confined to their homes, are wondering why they are not allowed to go to the schools. This is happening so because the Hurriyat Conference led by senior separatist leader Syed Ali Geelani {and thus known as Hurriyat (G)} is issuing weekly strike and protest programmes. People are asked to observe strikes and take to streets in protest and they do so. Government retaliates by imposing curfew and restrictions; people defy curfew; clashes take place; bullets are fired and people die.

People adhere to Hurriyat (G) calendar and therefore the conglomerate is genuinely happy that its writ runs and that it has made the state government a failure. The leadership of the amalgam would be proud that it has succeeded in making things difficult for the government. This success demands that the pot is kept boiling and that is what Hurriyat (G) is doing right now.

The government, both state as well as central, agencies have failed to find any trace of Massarat Alam and Asiya Andrabi, who are busy issuing fresh progammes of agitation. Government claims that there are just a few stone pelters disturbing the peace but fact of the matter is that &#8220;these few&#8221; are strong enough to keep thousands of police and CRPF personnel on tenterhooks.

So it is Hurriyat (G) that runs the show and is in full command of the situation. And the way the conglomerate&#8217;s programmes are success, one can conclude safely that people of Kashmir are with no one but Hurriyat (G) and this separatist amalgam is proving a success story. However, this is only one side of the story.

When indefinite strikes started telling upon peoples&#8217; nerves; when their stomachs started churning for food; shops of essential commodities started opening by fives and tens in different markets. People, desperate to get eatables, rushed to these shops; some public transport including auto-rickshaws started plying on roads. And that was it!
Groups of youth emerged on streets and forced the shopkeepers to pull the shutters of their shops down. They attacked vehicles and thrashed auto drivers. Private schools were warned not to open and Srinagar Municipal Corporation (SMC) trucks, that dared to venture into old city to clean it of thousands of MT of garbage that has piled their during protest and curfew days, were attacked and one truck set ablaze.

So much so, in a shameful act, stone pelters thrashed some women with nettle near Handwara who were on way to some wedding and had thus defied the Hurriyat (G) protest orgramme. In interior localities of Srinagar, young boys attacked shops raising slogans &#8220;Deen Ke Aage Duniya Kya&#8221; (How does world matter when it comes to religion). And thus Hurriyat (G) programme becomes a grand success. This is another side of the story.

In one month, 17 precious lives have been lost; the academic career of children is devastated; Valley has suffered loses of nearly Rs. 8000 crores and what has been achieved? When protests in Kashmir were at the peak, foreign ministers of India and Pakistan met in Islamabad. Given the situation in Kashmir, one would have expected Kashmir on the top of the agenda. But Pakistan foreign minister himself admitted that Indian side showed no interest to talk about this issue.

Despite the troubled situation here, Kashmir has hardly found any mention in international media and even Indian and Pakistani media doesn&#8217;t give a hoot to whatever is happening here. Neither UN has taken any note, nor European Union, OIC or any other world body. Yes, if anything has been achieved that is a statement from Amnesty International seeking release of arrested lawyers and establishment of juvenile homes for younger prisoners. And tragic side of the story is that innocent people are made to believe that this agitation will get them freedom.

As the chaos and confusion lingers on, voices from the very separatist camp are being raised against the frequent strikes. United Jehad Council (UJC) chief, Syed Sallahudin counseled the Hurriyat (G) not to go for indefinite strikes and while agitating, remain mindful of economy and education. Though the counsel was not taken well by stone pelters who even resented it but the question is why Sallahudin take one month to come out with such a sensible statement.

Jamaat-e-Islami, that happens to be a constituent of Hurriyat (G) too has come out with identical statement asking &#8216;leaders&#8217; to issue programmes in such a way that people are not stretched beyond their capacity. Jamaat and Sallahudin could have issued the same statements a few weeks back. Why did they not do so? Is it that they too were in the illusion that the agitational calendar of Hurriyat (G) will fetch Azadi? If yes, it could be termed as the saddest side of the whole story.

And the dangerous side of the story is that following Syed Sallahudin&#8217;s statements, newspapers received emails from anonymous people using derogatory language against him. In some parts of Valley, his effigies were burnt and a group of stone pelters addressed a press conference saying those who oppose the present strike and agitation are traitors.

It indicates that there is a strong voice within separatist camp that is interested in continuation of strike. Earlier, the separatists would be seen in two camps &#8211; hardliners and moderates. But now it is clear that there are groups within groups. There are hardliners and ultra hardliners; there are moderates and pseudo-moderates. The divisions within separatist ranks have already resulted into deaths and destruction. One wonders whether a new phase of infighting is in the making.

History tells us that when oppression and suppression reaches its all notorious heights, nations revolt. People ready themselves to do anything and everything to break the chains of slavery. They burry the apprehensions of death, destruction and defeat and revolt with full force. And at such a stage, the nations need leadership of wisdom and foresight. Such a leadership channelizes the peoples&#8217; sentiments and emotions; polishes their anger and directs them in the right direction.

And when such leadership is not insight, the anger turns into madness and people inflict more wounds to themselves. They enter a self-destructive mode and do everything that makes suffer none but the revolting people. History has so many such instances to teach us but unfortunately we are reluctant to learn. Freedom is a consensual ideal of a people. Without having a consensus and by imposing dictates, only disastrous results are to be expected.

Na Kissi Pe Zakham Ayaan Koi, Na Kissi Ko Fikr Rafoo Ki Hai;
Na Karam Hai Hum Pe Habeeb Ka, Na Nigah Hum Pe Adoo Ki Hai.
(Neither anyone looks at our wounds, nor anyone tries to heal them; we are bereft of the love of our beloved and even the scorn of our foe).
The author is the editor of Urdu daily Uqab and the article is translated from Urdu.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> What propaganda. We all know this is just futile and a waste of time. Those jerks in uniform also know this. What propaganda dear?



Do i need to tell u wat was the propaganda...?

as i said watever floats ur boat......if we both are alive for aanother 60 years and if im not banned b4 that...still we ll be discussing from the same ground....



Areesh said:


> Wake up time it is for you and many other kids like you.



its better to be asleep than be half-awake and start night walking on the key board

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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> Do i need to tell u wat was the propaganda...?
> 
> as i said watever floats ur boat......if we both are alive for aanother 60 years and if im not banned b4 that...still we ll be discussing from the same ground....
> 
> 
> 
> its better to be asleep than be half-awake and start night walking on the key board



You just testified me dear. It is all futile. Even after 60 years those jerks in pathetic uniform would be killing the supposed terrorists and some kids like you would jumping on their seats with the delusion that they have killed "terrorists". 



> its better to be asleep than be half-awake and start night walking on the key board



I was just about to say the same to you, it is good that you are realizing it yourself. Keep it up. You looked very sleepy in your posts too.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> You just testified me dear. It is all futile. Even after 60 years those jerks in pathetic uniform would be killing the supposed terrorists and some kids like you would jumping on their seats with the delusion that they have killed "terrorists".



And similarly some bachoos like u will be parroting "support Kashmir from Indian occupation" on the other side.

And as usual IA will spanking the rear end of anyone doing any mischief..


Ohhh I just love this status quo....

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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> And similarly some bachoos like u will be parroting "support Kashmir from Indian occupation" on the other side.
> 
> And as usual IA will spanking the rear end of anyone doing any mischief..
> 
> 
> Ohhh I just love this status quo....



Well if that will help you to sleep than ok you can have that. Till then we will support Kashmiris even we have to support them for 600 years let alone 60 years.

Anyways IOK won't be IOK in those 60 years so I won't be quarreling with you after 60 years. You would be satisfied with what you would have been left with you.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> Well if that will help you to sleep than ok you can have that. Till then we will support Kashmiris even we have to support them for 600 years let alone 60 years.



Take all ur time for 6000 years...still not an inch will be conceded to anyone.





Areesh said:


> Anyways IOK won't be IOK in those 60 years so I won't be quarreling with you after 60 years. You would be satisfied with what you would have been left with you.



One rare place i agree with u...it ll be not be IOK..it ll be J&K - a normal state in the Indian Union with Article 370 removed and mayb demography changed

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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> Take all ur time for 6000 years...still not an inch will be conceded to anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One rare place i agree with u...it ll be not be IOK..it ll be J&K - a normal state in the Indian Union with Article 370 removed and mayb demography changed





> Take all ur time for 6000 years...still not an inch will be conceded to anyone.



Who wants an inch. We talk about whole IOK not an inch. And it will be conceded whether you like it or not.



> One rare place i agree with u...it ll be not be IOK..it ll be J&K - a normal state in the Indian Union with Article 370 removed and mayb demography changed



Obviously it would be J&K. Who says we have to change the name. Just kick the 600000+ basta*ds out of IOK and the rest would be same. If Indian union would survive it would have to live with what it would have been left with. Article 370 issue would be resolve simultaneously. No terrorism no jihadis everything would settle down with Indian as* removed from Kashmir.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> Who wants an inch. We talk about whole IOK not an inch. And *it will be conceded *whether you like it or not.




the prime minister of India has spoken....UN please offcially change the map of South Asia in the next General body meeting (hey but we wwill veto it with the help of Russia is another matter)..




Areesh said:


> Obviously it would be J&K. Who says we have to change the name. Just kick the 600000+ basta*ds out of IOK and the rest would be same. If Indian union would survive it would have to live with what it would have been left with. Article 370 issue would be resolve simultaneously. No terrorism no jihadis everything would settle down with Indian as* removed from Kashmir.



hahaha if wat ur saying abt 600000 heroes is true then the population of Valley is less than the total number of soldiers..

So how u plan to kick them being in smaller number..?

And speak only of Valley (or rather Sopore and SriNagar) to satisfy ur mind...Hindu Jammu and Buddhist Ladakh wants nothing from u...

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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> the prime minister of India has spoken....UN please offcially change the map of South Asia in the next General body meeting (hey but we wwill veto it with the help of Russia is another matter)..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hahaha if wat ur saying abt 600000 heroes is true then the population of Valley is less than the total number of soldiers..
> 
> So how u plan to kick them being in smaller number..?
> 
> And speak only of Valley (or rather Sopore and SriNagar) to satisfy ur mind...Hindu Jammu and Buddhist Ladakh wants nothing from u...





> the prime minister of India has spoken....UN please offcially change the map of South Asia in the next General body meeting (hey but we wwill veto it with the help of Russia is another matter)..



Yeah russia would veto it. Let me think which Russia oh the previous Soviet Union. OK I got it. 




> hahaha if wat ur saying abt 600000 heroes is true then the population of Valley is less than the total number of soldiers..



Poor soul this is the biggest reason behind your loss of IOK. It is difficult for fan boys like you to understand. But human history tells us otherwise. This huge number of basta*ds present in IOK tells us the story of Indian failure in IOK.



> And speak only of Valley (or rather Sopore and SriNagar) to satisfy ur mind...



They belong to us so we speak about them.



> .Hindu Jammu and Buddhist Ladakh wants nothing from u...



Who cares about them. They can go to hell or in other words India.


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## fawwaxs

The conflict in Kashmir seems to be unending and the way it is being handled by Indian armed forces, especially the CRPF, is further aggravating it. Unfortunately, it is still being addressed primarily as a law and order problem and the aspirations of the people of Kashmir and their problems hardly matter.

Our armed forces go on violating human rights and they know only how to kill. This way instead of solving the problem, we will reduce Kashmir to a vast cemetery. More and more young protestors are dying and death hardly deters these young protestors from demonstrating.

It is not that people of Kashmir are really anti-India and want to opt for Pakistan. A recent UK think tank survey concluded that not more than 4 per cent Kashmiris want to align with Pakistan. They have their own aspirations and problems which must be addressed but they are not being addressed and, to the contrary, bullets are fired at them. Now at the all-party meeting it was decided that lethal weapons will not be used and instead pepper gun will be used which does not kill but produces, psychological impact similar to real bullets.

Should it have taken so much time to take this decision after killing 15 young people resulting in angry protests? Even CRPF has suffered great casualties, more than 273 Jawans have been injured in last one month and 1980 over one year. This decision could have been taken earlier and young lives would have been saved and CRPF Jawans from injuries? Or was this technology of pepper gun invented only before the all-party meeting. Do we have to kill so many innocent civilians before using appropriate technology? Had this decision been taken in time it would have saved several lives and would not have pushed the valley on brink of such a serious crisis.

I was in Kashmir in June for a workshop on peace and conflict resolution and talked to several people there as to what they thought could be the solution. I talked to a cross section of people, including intelligentsia, activists and even common people in the bazaar. One thing which emerges is that Omar Abdullah has failed to deliver on every front and sentiments are overwhelmingly in favour of Mufti Saeed.

Mufti is considered more mature and capable of talking frankly with the Centre and could handle Kashmir problem more satisfactorily. Omar Abdullah has lost grip over the situation and, besides, lacks courage to talk boldly with the Centre. This is what I can conclude from my conversations with local residents. Also, the separatist sentiments are not as strong as it is thought to be from outside. They are very angry at the mess in which Kashmir finds itself today.

The youth is interested in employment and an improvement in economic situation. Most of the young people I met bitterly complained about lack of economic opportunities in the valley. Even highly qualified persons do not find satisfactory jobs. They are either unemployed or underemployed. The separatists exploit this anger and frustration. However, neither the state government nor the centre is serious about it and keep on condemning separatists for creating this situation.

Also, in case of Kashmir there is a serious political dimension that is of our constitutional commitment to ensure autonomy and Nehru-Abdullah pact of 1953 had further reinforced it but under political pressure from rightwing elements this promise of full autonomy to Kashmir was never fulfilled. Again after the militant movement in Kashmir during late eighties and nineties the then Prime Minister Mr Narsimha Rao promised Farooq Abdullah, whom I had met during my visit to valley in late nineties, that he would grant autonomy to Kashmir and when Abdullah asked him how much, he told him sky is the limit. These words ring in my ears even today.

However, nothing happened and then the BJP led Government came to power whose agenda was to remove Article 370 from the constitution itself instead of giving even a small element of autonomy to the people of Kashmir. Also, the way the Centre had been conducting elections in Kashmir since independence never inspired confidence among the people. In fact the militancy in Kashmir began after 1988 elections were rigged and Salahuddein, a school teacher and now head of Hizbul Mujadidin, was declared defeated though, most of the Kashmiris think, he had won.

It was only in 2004 that for the first time fair elections were held and when I visited the valley I found new confidence among a section of Kashmiri people and some of them told me that if fair elections were held in future too, things could qualitatively change in Kashmir and people there will align with India. The elections in 2009 too were more or less fair but unfortunately Omar Abdullah does not seem to be in control.

After long years of militancy and violence people of Kashmir have realised one thing, and I am saying this after interacting with a large number of people in the valley that violence does not pay and that peaceful solution is the only way out. But they want peaceful solution with honour and dignity and one which addresses a host of their problems including Kashmiriyat, their regional autonomy and pride in their culture and institutions.

We, in India, do have a problem with Pakistan; we do not want to internationalise the Kashmir problem and that we do not want to go for plebiscite. All this is fine but what is coming in the way of our winning the hearts and minds of Kashmiri people? The way our forces indulge in fake encounters and seriously violate human rights is not the way to win their hearts and minds. With such actions we are greatly alienating ourselves from them.

When Prime Minister Manmohan Singh visited the valley in August 2006 for a roundtable conference with Kashmiri leaders he had asserted that there will be zero tolerance for violations of human rights. But then there were again fake encounters in the valley. Immediately thereafter I conducted a peace workshop and some participants taunted saying, is this the zero intolerance to violations of human rights?

Unfortunately, the situation is worsening in the valley rather than showing any signs of improvement. Day by day human rights violations are increasing. Few months ago two young women were raped but till today no suspect has been arrested. Even CBI did not hold proper inquiry, it is alleged and it is suspected that military and police officials are involved.

Again, my interaction with people in the valley showed that except a small section of Kashmiris, as also referred to in the survey by the UK think tank, no one is for joining Pakistan. All they want is peace and honourable existence. The government of India and the state government have to do everything possible to ensure this. People feel that Mufti had succeeded in seeking some concessions from the Centre which Omar Abdullah is unable to do either because of his inexperience or lack of courage. Whatever the reason, opinion is swinging in favour of Mufti.

Even Ghulam Nabi Azad is considered a better chief minister. The government of India, in order to stop bloodshed, will have to show political courage and determination to take bold steps and strictly discipline the army and not tolerate their violations on the pretext that any action could demoralise them. Such an approach will play only in the hands of the terrorists and keep on aggravating the situation.

Fake encounters have absolutely no place in democracy and it is nothing but serious failure of governance if innocent citizens are killed by the police or army. Such unscrupulous officers must be rigorously punished. Such killings can lead to serious trouble even when there is no separatist or terrorist movement, much less in sensitive areas like Kashmir where issues of regional culture and identity are politically extra-sensitive.

Regional autonomy in many countries is a serious problem whether other countries are involved in it or not. For example, the question of Basque nationality in Spain is a serious question and only the other day the Basque nationalists organised a demonstration with 2.5 million people to press their demand. Basque nationalists also resorted to violence for long and exploded bombs. However, they too realised that violence will not enable them to achieve their goal.

We have to sort out Kashmir problem on two fronts, our own internal front and Pakistan front. Here I do not want to comment as far as Pakistan front is concerned. Here my main concern is our own internal front and ensuring peace in the valley and people of Kashmir, in my opinion, are ready for non-violent and honourable peace. Firstly, development will play a very important role. The youth must be won over through ensuring employment. Faisal Shahs case is an important example. All Kashmiris felt proud that one of their own has been selected and stood first in IAS examination. Indian Muslims too felt very proud and organised a series of receptions for him throughout India.

Thus to solve Kashmir problem internally what is needed is a measure of negotiated autonomy, economic development, greater recruitment of Kashmiri youth in and outside Kashmir in the government sector which will give them greater sense of belonging to India, expeditious development of Railway network and ensuring non-violation of human rights and minimising presence of armed forces except in border areas can lead to internal peace.

By Asghar Ali Engineer 

The writer is an Indian scholar and chairman of the Centre for Study of Society and Secularism, Mumbai.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> Yeah russia would veto it. Let me think which Russia oh the previous Soviet Union. OK I got it.



Russia or Andorra...they still have a veto reserved for us.  and do u think they have forgot the years 1980-1989..No ..
And that is a advantage for India.



Areesh said:


> Poor soul this is the biggest reason behind your loss of IOK. It is difficult for fan boys like you to understand. But human history tells us otherwise. This huge number of basta*ds present in IOK tells us the story of Indian failure in IOK.



Y go to human history and all...I think India should do wat ur "deeper than ocean" friend did in Tibet and doing in Xinjiang.





Areesh said:


> They belong to us so we speak about them.



If wishes were only lemons u would be having the mother of all sore throats.



Areesh said:


> Who cares about them. They can go to hell or in other words India.



Yes India is hell for ppl thinking abt compromising our territorial integrity.


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## somebozo

The conflict of kashmir will remain a headache for India even without Pakistan involment. The simple reason is, Kashmiri people dont want to live with India.

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## Tshering22

somebozo said:


> The conflict of kashmir will remain a headache for India even without Pakistan involment. The simple reason is, Kashmiri people dont want to live with India.


Correction: the terrorists for us don't want to be with us and want to join you with the pretence of some independence. You make it sound like the Battle of Thermopylae between Greeks and Persians... Let's face it, without the official endorsement of your government, these terrorists have no resources. 

The support for "independence" is equal to support for terrorism against us just as how it would be if we support BLA. Try to understand others' troubles as well. Let's have a mutual non-aggression agreement: we assure never to involve even once in future in Balochistan and you won't ever involve in Kashmir. 

Both parties happy. This is the most profitable agreement both countries can have.

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## EjazR

*Peace In Kashmir By Maulana Wahiduddin Khan*

I have been writing about Kashmir for many years nowfrom the late 1960s onwards. From the very outset, I have been of the firm view that impractical politics have played havoc with Kashmir and that now, through practical and pragmatic politics, we can pave the way for a progressive Kashmir.

The Kashmiri Muslims, on the whole, seem to have become disillusioned with everyone. They are living in an atmosphere of complete mistrust. The aim of this booklet is to assist them in coming out of this environment and to make them more confident. It is indeed possible for the Kashmiris to start a new life. But for this two conditions must be met. Firstly, they must recognize their own culpability for the predicament that they face today. And, secondly, they must abandon the imaginary world that they hanker after and learn to live in the real, practical world. Their incapable leaders have fed them on all sorts of imaginary longings, and these they must abandon. In doing so, they must adopt means that are in accordance with the present conditions and thereby begin to build a new life for themselves.

Admitting the existing realities, the Kashmiri Muslims must recognizenot out of compulsion, but, rather, willinglythat Fate has decreed for them a part of India and that they have no option but to gladly accept this decision. There is nothing at all wrong with this. Indeed, this reality can be a source of great goodness and benefit for them. India is a huge country. It enjoys freedom and democracy. It is home to almost 200 million other Muslims. Most of the bigger Islamic institutions in South Asia are located in India. All across India are scattered the memories of a thousand and more years of Muslim presence, which continue to provide courage and inspiration to the countrys Muslims. But more than all this, India provides all the freedoms and opportunities to Muslims to engage in the task of dawah or inviting others to the path of Gods religion, a task which can win for Muslims everlasting joy and peace in heaven.

Once, several years ago, I visited Karachi for a few days. There, I met a Muslim industrialist. He told me that the Indian Muslims were in a better position than their coreligionists in Pakistan. When I asked him why, he answered, Pakistan is a small country. We have a very small potential market for the products we manufacture. In contrast, India is a vast country. If you produce something there you have a huge market you can sell it to.

What this Pakistani industrialist told me has become a fact of life. In the twenty-first century, the Muslims of India have emerged as the most progressive Muslim community in the whole of South Asia. If the Muslims of Kashmir were to wholeheartedly lend their support to merger with India, they, too, will find that all sorts of doors to progress will be opened up to them. The opportunities that they would enjoy to progress economically and educationally being a part of India would not be available if they were to choose any other option. Even politically they stand to gain considerably by being part of India. If they were to abandon the politics of confrontation and willingly accept being with India, it is quite possible that, one day, India will have a democratically-elected Kashmiri Muslim Prime Minister. I have absolutely no doubt about this at all.

*The Kashmiri Leadership*

I have been seriously pondering about the Kashmir issue for decades now. With Gods grace, the views that I held about the subject when I started off remain just the same today. I have never felt the need to change them. I wrote my first article on Kashmir way back in 1968, which was published in the Urdu weekly Al-Jamiat, the official organ of the Jamiat ul-Ulema-e Hind. There, I argued that Shaikh Abdullah, the then leader of the Kashmiris, could have, if he had wanted and if he had adopted a pragmatic policy, decided the fate of the Kashmiris according to what he thought was appropriate. However, owing to his unrealistic dreams, he lost that opportunity and so it was now pointless ranting and raving against a situation that could no longer be changed.

I kept repeating this line in various other articles that I wrote on the Kashmir issue over the years. I believe that many Kashmiris have veered round to my opinion, abandoning the path of militancy and taking to the path of education and progress instead. I constantly receive letters and phone calls from people in Kashmir telling me this.

In many cases, movements are described as popular uprisings, but, in fact, they represent stirrings instigated by just a handful of leaders. A small group of men seeks to instigate the masses through fiery lectures and writings and, in this way, seek to project themselves as their leaders. True leaders must shoulder an immense responsibility. They must enter the field of activism only if they are suitably prepared and capable for the task Those who do so without the necessary preparation are grave criminals in the eyes of God, irrespective of how popular they may be among the masses.

The time has now come for the Kashmiris to rise above their leaders and to view the entire Kashmir conflict afreshnot in the light of the pronouncements of their leaders, but, rather, in the light of practical realities. Doing so, they must chart the course of their lives anew. There is simply no other way for them to succeed.

*Lessons From Nature*

When a river is blocked by a boulder, it changes its course and, skirting round the boulder, it proceeds ahead. However, we foolish human beings act differently. We struggle in vain to seek to break the boulder and carry on. Consequently, we fail to move ahead and our journey comes to an abrupt end once and for all. This is precisely what has happened in Kashmir.

The armed uprising in Kashmir against India began in October 1989. Just a month before this, I visited Kashmir, where I addressed a large gathering at Tagore Hall in Srinagar. Besides, on that trip I met with numerous Kashmiris. One day, I went with some Kashmiri Muslims to an open valley just outside Srinagar. The place was arrestingly beautiful. From the towering peaks rivulets tumbled into the valley below. We sat on the banks of a stream. I noticed the way the stream flowed till it arrived at a massive rock. The stream did not bang its head against the rock, seeking to break it and move ahead. Rather, when it met the rock it simply swerved to the left, around the rock, and kept on with its journey uninterrupted. I turned to my companions and said, This is a message from Nature to you. This fact of Nature tells you that if in the journey of life you face a hurdle, you should not seek to hurl yourself against it to carry on ahead. Rather, what you must do is to carefully avoid the hurdle and continue with your journey. This is the secret for success in life. It applies in the same way to communities as it does to individuals. The only way to progress is to ignore the hurdles one comes up against and, instead, to focus on and make use of the available opportunities.

Personally, I do not regard the military or political presence of India in Kashmir as a hurdle for the Kashmiris. The Indian military is present in Kashmir simply to protect the borders. Till 1989, the Indian Army in Kashmir was only stationed along the borders of Kashmir. Indian soldiers did not then enter Kashmiri villages and localities. But when in October 1989 Kashmiri activists took up weapons against India and launched a militant movement, the Indian Army entered Kashmiri settlements in order to combat the uprising because the militants were present in these settlements. Even if the Kashmiri Muslims had considered the presence of Indian soldiers in Kashmir to be a hurdle or a challenge, the only sensible way out for them was precisely what Nature itself has taught usthat is to say, to ignore the problems and to avail the existing opportunities.

This is not a principle that one should adopt simply out of compulsion. This principle is a universal one. It applies to all individuals and groups. It applies just as much to Muslim-majority countries as it does to countries where Muslims are a minority.

*Un-Wise Methods*

A basic principle that we need to adhere to in contexts that involve conflict of interests is to willingly accept whatever is available to one in the existing situation. If at the very outset we refuse to do this and, instead, in a bid to get more than what we are being offered, we prolong the conflict, the conflict is bound to become even more complicated. Consequently, we will lose even whatever was available to us at the very outset

Let me cite an example to clarify this point. In 1917, the British drew up a plan to partition Palestine. It is known in history books as the Balfour Declaration. According to this scheme, a third of the land of Palestine would be given to the Jews, and the rest would remain with the Arabs, including the entire city of Jerusalem. However, the Muslim leaders of that time refused to accept this plan. If the leaders of the Muslims or the Arabs had adopted a pragmatic and realistic approach and accepted whatever was being offered to them at the time, they could have then concentrated all their energies and resources on constructive purposes. As a result, the conditions of the Palestinians could have been much better than that of the Jews. However, owing to the unrealistic approach of the Muslim leaders, the Palestinians lost their all and had to face total destruction.

The same thing has happened in the case of Jammu and Kashmir because of the extreme incapability of the leaders of both Kashmir and Pakistan. The fact is that the present Kashmir conflict is largely a result of the foolishness of the Kashmiri leaders themselves, rather than, as they allege, the oppression of others or any sort of anti-Kashmiri conspiracy.

In this regard, the record of the foolishness of Muslim leaders is a long and sordid one. I will allude to just one aspect of this here. In 1947, when India was partitioned, Pakistani leaders adopted a completely stupid stance and staked their claim to two Hindu-majority Indian princely states: Junagadh and Hyderabad. Had the Pakistani leaders adopted a sensible and pragmatic approach and not demanded that Junagadh and Hyderabad, which were far from the Pakistani borders and deep inside Indian territory, should accede to Pakistan, the issue of Kashmir would never have become so serious as it soon did. The question of Kashmir could then have very easily been solved in favour of Pakistan. But the avarice of the Pakistani leaders resulted in Pakistan getting neither Junagadh nor Hyderabad, and, at the same time, they failed to acquire Kashmir as well.

Let me cite some facts to confirm my point. Chaudhry Muhamnmad Ali was the Prime Minister of Pakistan in the period 1955-1957. Prior to this, he had been a senior minister in the cabinet of Prime Minister Liaqat Ali Khan. In his voluminous book Emergence of Pakistan he relates that shortly after the Partition, the Muslim ruler of the Hindu-majority princely state of Junagadh declared that his state would accede to Pakistan. India refused to accept this decision and sent in its armed forces that took over the state and incorporated it into India. After this, a meeting was held in Delhi, attended by Jawaharlal Nehru and Sardar Patel, from the Indian side, and Liaqat Ali Khan and Chaudhry Muhammad Ali, from the Pakistani side. Chaudhry Muhammad Ali writes:

Sardar Patel, although a bitter enemy of Pakistan, was a greater realist than Nehru. In one of the discussions between the two Prime Ministers, at which Patel and I were also present, Liaqat Ali Khan dwelt on the inconsistency of the Indian stand with regard to Junagadh and Kashmir. If Junagadh, despite its Muslim rulers accession to Pakistan, belonged to India because of its Hindu majority, how could Kashmir, with its Muslim majority, be a part of India simply by virtue of its Hindu ruler having signed a conditional instrument of accession to India? If the instrument of accession signed by the Muslim ruler of Junagadh was of no validity, the instrument of accession signed by the Hindu ruler of Kashmir was also invalid. If the will of the people was to prevail in Junagadh, it must prevail in Kashmir as well. India could not claim both Junagadh and Kashmir.

When Liaqat made these incontrovertible points, Patel could not contain himself and burst out: Why do you compare Junagadh with Kashmir? Talk of Hyderabad and Kashmir, and we could reach an agreement. Patels view at this time, and even later, was that Indias efforts to retain Muslim-majority areas against the will of the people were a source not of strength but of weakness to India. He felt that if India and Pakistan agreed to let Kashmir go to Pakistan and Hyderabad to India, the problems of Kashmir and of Hyderabad could be solved peacefully and to the mutual advantage of India and Pakistan.

If what Chaudhry Muhammad Ali says is true, it is incontrovertible evidence that the conflict over Kashmir is a creation of the Pakistani leaders themselves, and not of India.

Further proof of this is available in another book by an important Pakistani leader, Sardar Shaukat Hayat Khan. This book was originally written in Urdu under the title Gumgashta Qaum. Its English title is The Nation That Lost Its Soul. In this book, Sardar Shaukat Hayat Khan reveals:

When Mountbatten arrived in Lahore when fighting broke out in Kashmir, he addressed an important dinner meeting which was attended by the Pakistani Prime Minister Liaqat Ali Khan, the Governor of the Punjab, and four Ministers from the Punjab, where he delivered a message from Patel. In his message, Patel suggested that India and Pakistan should abide by the principles that had been agreed upon between the Congress and the Muslim League with regard to the political future of the princely states, according to which the states would accede to India or Pakistan depending on the religion of the majority of their inhabitants as well as their contiguity to either of the two countries. Accordingly, Patel suggested that Pakistan should take Kashmir and renounce its claims to Hyderabad Deccan, which had a Hindu majority and which had no land or sea border with Pakistan. After delivering this message, Mountbatten retired to the Government House to rest.

Sardar Shaukat Hayat Khan further relates:

I was in-charge of Pakistans operations in Kashmir. I went to see Liaqat Ali Khan, and pointed out that Indian forces had entered Kashmir and that Pakistan could not succeed in driving them out using the tribal raiders to ensure that Kashmir became part of Pakistan. I even said that it seemed unlikely that the Pakistani Army could succeed in doing so. Hence, I insisted, we must not reject Patels offer. But Liaqat Ali Khan turned to me and said, Sardar Sahib! Have I gone mad that I should leave the state of Hyderabad Deccan, which is even larger than the Punjab, in exchange for the mountains and peaks of Kashmir?

I was stunned at Liaqat Ali Khans reaction, shocked that our Prime Minister was so ignorant of geography, and at his preferring Hyderabad Deccan over Kashmir. This was nothing but living in a fools paradise. To acquire Hyderabad was clearly impossible, and we were rejecting an opportunity that would have given us Kashmir. Yet, Liaqat was totally unaware of the importance of Kashmir for Pakistan. That is why I resigned in protest as in-charge of Kashmir operations.

If one accepts what Sardar Shaukat Hayat Khan says as true, it is clear evidence that the conflict over Kashmir was created entirely by Muslim leaders and no one else. Here I will add that Nature does not permit an individual or a community to exact the price of its own mistakes from others. A person pays the price of his follies himself, and this rule applies to communities as well. Pakistan is no exception to this rule.

*Be Realistic*

In April 1986, a group of Sikhs got together in Amritsar and declared what they called the independent state of Khalistan. At this time I wrote an article in the Hindustan Times, captioned Acceptance of Reality. This article was about the situation in Punjab and Kashmir. Addressing the people of Punjab and Kashmir, I warned them that ongoing movements for an independent Punjab and an independent Kashmir would never succeed. I said that such movements were tantamount to breaking ones head against a boulder. Nothing could be gained from such movements, except, of course, some broken heads and worse. I advised the people of both states to be realistic, to accept the status quo and to focus their energies on positive purposes instead.

The Sikhs realized this rather soon enough and the militant movement for Khalistan shortly came to an end. I am sure that, finally, the Kashmiris, too, will adopt this stance, but this might happen only after much suffering and destruction, indeed communal suicide, all in the name of Islamic martyrdom.

As I write these lines, my mind travels back to the 27th of January, 1992, when two well-educated Kashmiri Muslims came to meet me in Delhi. They were not members of any militant group, but yet they were staunch supporters of the Kashmiri militants. They were not active militants themselves in the practical sense of the term, but at the intellectual level they certainly were.

In the course of our conversation, I told the men that their self-styled Kashmir movement was not at all proper or acceptable. I said that it was certainly not an Islamic jihad, and it was obviously not going to lead to the creation of an Islamic system, unlike what its leaders so loudly claimed. Nor, I added, did separation from India make any practical sense. The movement could only spell more destruction for the Kashmiris themselves. The men passionately defended the movement, and even claimed that shortly the Kashmiris would score a glorious success. Then, on my request, they penned a few words in my diary. Once we separate from India, they wrote, our land will become an Islamic Kashmir.

I told the men that what they had written was nothing but baseless, wishful thinking. They would soon realize, I said, how mistaken and unrealistic they were. Then, I penned the following words in my diary:

If Kashmir separates from India, the independent state of Kashmir that would come into being or, if Kashmir joins Pakistan, the Pakistani province of Kashmir that would be formed, would be a destroyed and devastated Kashmir. The choice before Kashmiris is not between Indian Kashmir and Pakistani Kashmir, but, rather, between Indian Kashmir and a destroyed Kashmir.

More than a decade has passed after this meeting. The developments that have taken place in these ten or more years clearly illustrate how erroneous, baseless and misleading were the claims of these two Kashmiri self-styled mujahidsthat reflected nothing but foolish and wishful thinking. On the other hand, whatever I had, with the grace of God, written in my diary on that day and had told the men has come true. The developments over the last decade or so clearly indicate that, in todays context, Kashmirs benefit lies not in independence or in joining Pakistan, but, rather in being part of India and in abandoning the path of violence in exchange for peaceful reconstruction and progress.

Kashmiris who think that they are engaged in a jihad call themselves lovers of Islam. My advice to them is that they should become lovers of reality before considering themselves lovers of Islam, because the edifice of Islam is based on the hard ground of reality. No firm edifice can be built on fanciful or and wishful thinking.

*Avoid Political Confrontation*

A wise man is one who knows the relative value of things. Judging by this statement, it appears that the Kashmiris lack even a single wise leader who is aware of the dire consequences of the path of militancy for the people of Kashmir themselves. This issue can be understood in the light of a verse in the Quran that explains that when the Prophet Solomon sent a letter in the name of the Queen of Sheba and demanded that she submit, she sought the advice of her courtiers. They said to her that because they had considerable military strength but they left the decision to her. The Queen replied to them, in the words of the Quran, thus: Kings, when they enter a country, despoil it, and make the noblest of its people its meanestthis is what they do (27: 34).

The Quran here refers to a very important fact, and that is that when one confronts a powerful ruler, one must think carefully of the consequences of doing so. If the consequences would prove negative, then confrontation must be avoided. Experience proves that confronting a very powerful ruler is almost always counter-productive. It causes death and destruction on a massive scale, and the worst sufferers of this are innocent people. That is why confronting a powerful ruler must be avoided as far as possible. But if some people ignore this advice or principle and seek to directly confront a powerful ruler, it is pointless for them to later complain about loss of life and property. They ought to know that the destruction that they suffer is a price for their confronting a powerful ruler. Those who adopt the path of militancy to fight existing governments have necessarily to pay such a heavy price. It is simply impossible that a certain group commits a mistake and another group is then compelled to pay for it.

I have come across numerous articles and books by Kashmiris and Pakistanis with such titles as The Wounded Kashmir or The Wounded Valley and so on. These writings talk about the oppression being heaped on the Kashmiris by the Indian Army. Such writings are quickly disseminated across the world. Yet, in practical terms, they have had no positive result at all. All they represent is screaming and berating, and cause no positive impact. I am of the view that the blame for the fact that all this complaining and protest has had no positive result must be placed on the shoulders of the Kashmiris themselves. The Kashmiris can learn a valuable lesson in this regard from the words of the Queen of Sheba as recorded in the Quran, which I referred to above. The Queen adopted a wise policy that avoided the possibility of destruction and oppression. In contrast, due to their foolishness the Kashmiris have actually invited the Indian Army to trample on them and to make them a target of their oppression.

The beginnings of a solution to the vexed conflict over Kashmir is for the Kashmiris themselves to recognize their mistakes and learn a lesson from the example of the Queen of Sheba as described in the Quran. This will greatly assist them in planning afresh the course of their life as a people. There is simply no other possible solution.

*What Wisdom Demands*

According to a report contained in the Sunan Abi Daud, the Prophet Muhammad is said to have advised Muslims to avoid the path of extremism, warning them that this could lead to their conditions becoming even more dire. The truth of this statement is clearly evident today in every single Muslim country where groups have taken to the path of militancy to attain their objectives. And this has happened in Kashmir, too.

Over the last several decades, a culture of violence and extremism has gripped Kashmir, and, of course, this has had no positive consequence for its people at all. On the contrary, it has caused such terrible destruction that is simply indescribable. The ongoing conflict in Kashmir has played havoc with its economy and educational system. It has led to the death of over a hundred thousand people, with many more being injured and crippled for life. It has had a terrible toll on the moral fabric of Kashmiri society. It has forced a huge number of well-qualified and highly-educated Kashmiris to flee their state. It is obvious that the movement that was launched and is being carried on in the name of the Kashmiri people has produced no benefit whatsoever for the common Kashmiris, although it certainly has bolstered the fortunes of their self-styled leaders.

The Quran tells us in clear words, [Y]ou may not grieve over what is lost to you [] (57: 23). This verse of the Quran speaks of a rule that God has established and that prevails throughout the world and for all times. According to this rule, every person and every community has to experience some form of loss at some time or the other. No person or community is exempt from this rule, for this is part of the divine creation plan. This is Gods law, and so it is impossible to change it.

At the same time, there is another divine law that lays down that in this world opportunities shall never cease to exist. Whenever one opportunity is lost another one is created or is made available. Hence, wisdom demands that we should forget our lost opportunities and, instead, make use of new ones that are available to us. This is precisely what the Kashmiris should do today.

Exploitative leaders thrive on fanning peoples discontent and sense of being denied. On the other hand, true leaders lead movements that are based on using existing opportunities, and who employ such opportunities to chart a new future for their people.

*Peace and Justice*

It is impossible for people to live in a constant state of war. But perhaps Kashmiri leaders are simply unaware of this basic fact. They want to continue their useless war endlessly, and now it has assumed even more grotesque forms with the advent of the phenomenon known as suicide bombing. Little do they know that in the course of the Second World War Japanese soldiers resorted to suicide bombing on an even more massive scale but that this tactic completely failed. Not a single ruler in history, no matter how powerful, has been able to maintain a state of continual war. How then, one must ask, do the powerless people of Kashmir hope to keep up their useless struggle forever? What is bound to happen, sooner or later, is that the Kashmiri militants will one day tire of fighting and will find themselves compelled to give up arms. The right way for the fighting to stop, however, would be for the Kashmiris to decide willingly, on their own rather than out of fatigue or sheer compulsion, to end this destructive war at once.

Once, I met a highly-educated Kashmiri Muslim. I said to him that the thing that Kashmir needs most desperately today is peace. He replied that the Kashmiris indeed do want peace, but, he asked, what sort of peace? True peace, he said, is inseparable from justice. Peace without justice, he argued, suits the oppressors but not the oppressed.

I answered him saying that this was a grave misunderstandingand that it was one that was shared by all the Muslim leaders throughout the world. Peace, I said, means the absence of war. Peace can never be established along with justice. Rather, once peace is established, it can later help create the necessary conditions for promoting or securing justice. And this, I said, was in accordance both with reason and with Islamic teachings.

When the Prophet Muhammad entered into a peace treaty with the pagan Quraish of Mecca at Hudaibiyah he secured only peace, not justice. However, this peace then created an environment that enabled the Prophet to work for securing justice as well. This clearly shows that justice is not, and can never be, an integral component of peace. The two cannot be had simultaneously. Rather, justice can be secured only after peace is established, by using the opportunities that peace provides. It is not a direct and immediate product of peace.

The leaders of the Kashmiri militant movement constantly argue that they want the Kashmir issue to be resolved in accordance with the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council. In other words, they insist that a referendum be held in Kashmir to decide its political future. However, these resolutions have become irrelevant today. The fact remains, however, that one can secure ones rights only on the basis of ones own strength, and not through someone elses assistance. It is simply unrealistic and wishful thinking to expect the United Nations resolutions to be acted upon in todays context.

*This Is Not An Islamic Movement*

Kashmiri militants claim that what they are spearheading is actually an Islamic jihad. This is completely erroneous. This movement is by no means a jihad. Those who are engaged in this movement can by no means be called mujahidin.

Just as there are certain rules to be abided by in offering ritual prayer, so, too, must jihad in the path of God (jihad fi sabil allah) follow certain rules that Islam has laid down. It is obvious that the self-styled mujahidin in Kashmir do not abide by these rules. For instance, a jihad needs to have a single amir or leader. It also requires a Muslim territory that can serve as its headquarters. A jihad cannot be fought for land, power, or wealth, but simply to establish Gods word. The ongoing movement in Kashmir meets none of these necessary conditions to qualify as a jihad. It can be called a guerilla war or a proxy war, but certainly not an Islamic jihad. And both guerilla war and proxy war have no legitimacy in Islam. A guerilla war is un-Islamic because in Islam announcing and leading a jihad is the task of an accepted ruler or imam, not of ordinary people. Proxy war is prohibited in Islam because the government that engages in such a war does not openly declare so, while an open declaration of war is a necessary condition for an Islamic jihad.

All these facts, as well as the completely useless war that continues to rage in Kashmir, cry out to the Kashmiri Muslims to put an end to fighting without a moments delay. This fighting will not benefit them one bit, either in this world nor in the hereafter, in the life after death. Rather, it will be a cause for their destruction in both worlds. It will lead to their destruction in the hereafter because they are engaged in a war that they wrongly claim to be an Islamic jihad but which is not a jihad at all according to the Islamic rules.

A struggle for political independence is not an Islamic movement, contrary to what its proponents might insist. Rather, it is wholly a communitarian or nationalist movement. There is no harm if such a movement is launched in the name of a nationality, but to label or claim it to be an Islamic movement or an Islamic jihad is to play with religion, and this can only lead to very heinous consequences.

In this regard, it is instructive to note that no prophets of God launched any movement for the political freedom of their country or people, although most of the prophets lived in contexts in which political leaders do launch movements for national liberation. For instance, at the time of the Prophet Joseph, a pagan foreign family ruled over Egypt. Yet, the Prophet Joseph did not launch a political movement or struggle against them, although after him some political leaders, who were not among his companions, did engage in such efforts.

If the Kashmiri Muslims want to make their movement a truly Islamic one, the first thing they must do is to completely renounce violence. They must also admit that the movement that they have launched has actually been a communitarian or nationalist one, on which they have wrongly stuck an Islamic label. Naturally, such a movement cannot win Gods help and favour.

One often hears Kashmiris lament that they are being crushed on two sidesby the Indian Army, on the one hand, and by militants, on the other. They also claim that when their so-called jihad was launched, a good number of pious and well-meaning people were involved in it but that now all sorts of criminals and other bad elements have joined it, thereby giving it a bad name. This, I believe, is wholly incorrect. Guerilla war inevitably degenerates into this sort of thing sooner or later. At first, guerilla war might be led by people who appear good and sincere, but later, inevitably, all sorts of bad elements join it. This is what has happened in the case of Kashmir, too, where bad elements have taken shelter under the garb of so-called Islamic jihad and are using this as a pretext to engage in killings and looting, for which they wrongly seek to provide religious legitimacy.

This is why I believe that the continuing violent movement in Kashmir can serve absolutely no positive purpose at all for the Kashmiri Muslims themselves. They must admit that the launching of their guerilla war was wrong from the very first day itself. To admit their mistake is the first step that they must take, and they must desist from heaping the blame for whatever has happened in Kashmir on others.

*Realistic Politics*

In life one is often provided with a second chance, and one must know how to make use of it. The leaders of Kashmir had a political dream for their land prior to the Partitionthat was, in a sense, their first chance. But they lost this chance with the Partition in 1947. The Kashmiris have a second chance now, which they must fully avail of so that they can build their society anew. The leaders of Kashmir dreamt of an independent country for their people. But this proved to be impossible because of the dramatic developments that took place in 1947 and immediately thereafter. Today, the only realistic possibility for Kashmir is to remain part of India, although with a special status as guaranteed by Article 370 of the Indian Constitution. Till now, the Kashmiri leaders have been engaged in what I call the politics of the impossible. Now, it behooves them to recognize practical realities and engage in the politics of the possible. The Kashmiris must forget the past and learn to live in the present. They must seek to chart their course of life while recognizing the practical possibilities of the present, rather than living in the past or dreaming of impossible solutions and chimerical schemes.

If Pakistan were to modify its policies on Kashmir by recognizing the existing ground realities, it would not be something novel for it. After all, in 1972 Pakistan initially refused to recognize the existence of a separate Bangladesh, but later it had to face what for it was the harsh reality of this new country and, finally, it was compelled to recognize it.

*Global Possibilities*

The Kashmiri Muslims have certain advantages which, sadly, they themselves have not fully explored or understood. For instance, if they choose willingly to be part of India, they can enjoy the status of being part of a country that has the distinction of having the worlds largest Muslim population after Indonesia. If the Kashmiri Muslims were aware of the salience of this fact they would regard it as an immense blessing.

Today, the whole world has become a global village. In this context, political structures and changes in them have become of relatively less importance. Our new global conditions have made it possible for anyone living anywhere on the face of the earth to communicate with people across the world without any restrictions. In such a situation, even if people and groups do not form part of the political class or have a state of their own they can gain all the benefits which in earlier times they could have only if they were part of the ruling class or had their own independent state. These global opportunities can be made available to the Kashmiris, too, but only if they act wisely and learn how to use them.

*Victory For Both*

It often happens that two groups quarrel over a piece of land. A part of the land is grabbed by one group and the rest by the other. One way to end the quarrel is for both groups to fight each other till, at last, both of them are destroyed in the process. The other, and obviously more sensible, way is for both parties to agree that each would keep that part of the land that is currently in its possession, that they would cease fighting, and that they would concentrate, instead, on developing the land that they control. This is called a win-win solution.

This, to my mind, is the best and most practicable formula to solve the conflict between India and Pakistan over the state of Jammu and Kashmir. Both India and Pakistan presently control parts of the state. If the two agree to be satisfied with whatever part of the state they presently control and cease fighting, it would be a win-win solution. They could then turn their attention to, and focus their resources on, developing their own countries, including the parts of Kashmir that they control.

It is true that the portion of Kashmir under Pakistani control is considerably smaller in size than that which is under Indian rule. But the size of a territory is only of relative importance. What is most important is to use ones available resources in a wise manner, even if the area under ones control is small. Numerous small countries or territories have flourished and emerged as prosperous commercial and financial hubs across the worldSingapore, Hong Kong, Dubai, Taiwan, for instance.

Man is driven by his psyche. If ones psyche is negative, driven by negative and destructive emotions and impulses, ones whole personality turns negative. Conversely, if one is driven by positive urges, one will have a positive personality. This rule applies as much to individuals as it does to groups, communities and countries. The vexed issue of the political status of Jammu and Kashmir has been a continuing source of conflict and contestation between India and Pakistan from 1947 onwards. Both countries feel that the other has snatched its rights. Consequently, both countries are driven by very strongly negative and destructive emotions towards each other. These emotions have proven to be a major hurdle in the progress and prosperity of both countries. It is now time for both India and Pakistan to rid themselves of this poisonous negativity, of seeking to destroy each other, and develop a new mind-set that is based on the principle of I win, and so do you. If this happens, new doors to progress will open for the peoples of both countries and, of course, for the Kashmiris as well.

From 1947 till the present day, both India and Pakistan have seen each other as deadly enemies. But if the change in psyche that I call for occurs, both will begin to see each other as friends. This will prove to be a major boost in enabling both of them to work for the welfare of their own peoples while also paving the way for joint action for developing the region as a whole. This is the win-win solution that we must work towards.

*Moving Towards A Solution*

The choice that Pakistan faces today is not, as many people argue, simply between democratic and military rule, but, more than that, to remain in the impasse that it finds itself in, thereby wiping itself off from the roadmap of the global community, or to extricate itself from this impasse and move ahead.

In the history of a countrys evolution it sometimes happens that its course of progress comes to a complete stand-still. At such times, it becomes imperative for it to take bold and seemingly unpopular decisions if it wants to move ahead. Naturally, such steps may not be welcomed by many. These moves might go wholly against popular sentiment. This is why such decisions are often taken by strong military dictators rather than democratically-elected politicians who, being chosen by their people, have to pander to their emotions and prejudices and so are generally unable to take any steps that might hurt their sentiments.

Let me cite two instances to make this point. The great military commander Salahuddin Ayubi (d. 1193 C.E.) played a key role in repelling the Crusaders. But how did he acquire the power to do so? Salahuddin was an officer in the army of the ruler of Egypt, Sultan Nuruddin Zangi. When the Sultan died, Salahuddin snatched his throne although the Sultan had sons who should have succeeded him in the normal course of things. Most Muslim historians regard this action as legitimate because although it may seem to have been wrong, it proved to be a wise decision because after coming to power Salahuddin was able to defeat the Crusaders and defend the Muslims. Another instance is that of the French President Charles de Gaulle (d. 1970). He was a top general in the French Army, but later manipulated his way to the post of President. On the face of it, this was an anti-democratic move, but by doing so de Gaulle was able to save France in a manner that a democratically-elected government could not possibly have. He announced the end of French rule in a number of French colonies in Africa and elsewhere, because this was proving to be a burden for France, sullying its image as a democratic country. Obviously, this move, which was widely unpopular in France, was a necessary one for the greater good of the country, but only a bold and strong ruler could do this, unmindful of popular sentiment and opposition.

The current situation in Pakistan is somewhat similar. Pakistans undeclared war against India over Kashmir has brought immense loss and destruction to Pakistan itself. Consequently, the entire world views Pakistan as a very dangerous and unstable country. Foreign investors are now extremely reluctant to invest in Pakistan. The proxy war in Kashmir has led to rapidly escalating instability and violence within Pakistan itself, causing grave problems for its own people. Scores of Pakistans religious and educational institutions have turned into centres of violence and destruction. Because of all this, Pakistan is witnessing an alarming brain-drain, with most of its highly-qualified and capable people fleeing the country because of the ongoing violence, the lack of developmental opportunities, and the poor state of infrastructure in the country.

The completely unrealistic policies of Pakistan with regard to Kashmir have proven to be a trap-door that are blocking the path to Pakistans further development. The only way out for Pakistan is to cease its game-plan in Kashmir and, instead, to focus on the opportunities for positive development and progress that are available to it. Pakistan must now recognize the status quo in Kashmir, and accept the Line of Control in Kashmir as the international border between India and Pakistan, albeit perhaps with some necessary adjustments. This can be a permanent solution to the Kashmir conflict. For this, Pakistan must cease its emotion-driven policies and politics with regard to Kashmir and, instead, adopt a sensible, realistic and pragmatic approach. Once it is able to establish peace with India by settling the Kashmir dispute, it will be able to work towards establishing peace within and work for the progress of its own people.

For the last sixty years Pakistans politics have revolved round the Kashmir issue. However, Pakistans efforts to annex Kashmir have miserably failed, and, moreover, have only resulted in massive destructionin Kashmir and within Pakistan itself. Nothing positive has at all come out of these efforts.

For Pakistan to accept the status quo in Kashmir and the Line of Control as a permanent and accepted border between India and Pakistan is, admittedly, difficult. But if Pakistani leaders gather the courage to take this bold step, it is bound to lead to miraculous consequences. It will break down the barriers between India and Pakistan and build a relationship of close friendship between the two countries. The negative mentality of the Pakistani people, built on hatred for India, will give way to a positive approach. Trade links between the two countries will flourish, to the benefit of both. Both countries, that are now what I call distant neighbours, will also be able to benefit from each other in the fields of education and culture. By ending its enmity with India, Pakistan will be able to progress in the same manner as Japan was able to after it ceased its enmity with the United States in the aftermath of the Second World War.

Any nation that aspires to move ahead is always faced with a given situation, or what can be called a practical status quo. There are two ways of dealing with this situation. One is to seek to change the status quo, through force if necessary. The other is to accept the status quo as it is and to concentrate efforts in other fields. This second approach is what I call positive status quoism. This is the only practical and sensible approach, and it is in accordance with reason. What this means is that when an ideal solution or state of affairs is practically impossible, one should agree to accept only what is empirically possible. This is precisely what Islam also teaches us. The Quran speaks of the settlement [that is] best and an amicable settlement (4: 128), which is to say that the best way to settle a conflict is through mutual agreement. In other words, conflicts are best resolved by avoiding confrontation and by coming to an understanding between the contending parties.

This suggestion to accept the status quo in Kashmir and then build better relations between India and Pakistan is not a new one. The governments of both countries had secretly agreed on this principle sometime in the early 1960s, and the Kashmiri leader Shaikh Abdullah had traveled to Pakistan as a mediator to arrange for this to be publicly announced. However, because of Nehrus sudden death this agreement could not be formally declared. In 1956, Nehru had publicly offered a settlement of the Kashmir issue over the ceasefire line, which had been converted into the Line of Control. On 23 May 1964, Nehru asked Shaikh Abdullah to meet the Pakistani President Ayub Khan in Rawalpindi in an effort to solve the Kashmir imbroglio. Ayub Khan agreed to a summit with Nehru, which was to be held in June 1964, and this message was conveyed to Nehru. However, just as Nehrus consent reached Karachi, the world also learnt that Nehru had died in his sleep. And with that was lost a major opportunity to peacefully resolve the Kashmir conflict.

If Pakistan were to accept the status quo in Kashmir and the Line of Control as the international border, it will not have any negative consequences at all for Pakistan and indeed for the Muslims as a whole. In such a situation, Kashmir will still remain a Muslim-majority area. Furthermore, it is an uncontestable fact that the Muslims who stayed on in India are in a much better position than those who live in Pakistan and Bangladesh. Thus, joining India will not only not negatively impact on the conditions of the Kashmiri Muslims, but, in fact, will actually help them in many ways.

It must also be recognized that the policies that Pakistan has been pursuing have proven to be a major cause for giving Islam a bad name. Pakistan has consistently used hatred against India as a means to create an artificial sense of Pakistani unity. While the Pakistanis failed to unite in the name of Islam (which is why the people of the erstwhile East Pakistan were compelled to form their own country of Bangladesh), strenuous efforts were made to bring them together on the basis of hatred for India. This gave critics the excuse to argue that Islam lacks the capacity to unite Muslims. If Pakistan were to amicably resolve the Kashmir issue by accepting the status quo in Kashmir and desists from anti-India policies and rhetoric, it is possible that its people and rulers will develop a positive approach and attitude to life, which will facilitate the emergence of a new era wherein Islam, not anti-Indianism, can become the basis for Pakistani unity. It may well be that this will earn Pakistan Gods blessings.

*They Sat Together, They Talked, And Then They Departed*

In July 2001, the then Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf visited Delhi, where he had a five hour-long meeting with the then Prime Minister of India, Atal Bihari Vajpayee. The major objective of this meeting was to explore the possibilities for a resolution of the Kashmir dispute. However, the talks failed, and, two days later, Musharraf returned to Islamabad.

What was the reason for the failure of the talks? The basic reason was that Vajpayee wanted both countries to accept the status quo in Kashmir while improving links between India and Pakistan in other fields, while Musharraf insisted that the Kashmir issue needed to be addressedin favour of Pakistanfirst before relations in other spheres could be strengthened. The Indian Prime Minister did not accept this suggestion, and then, naturally, the talks broke down.

When Musharraf arrived in India he made some statements that suggested that he might be willing to enter into an agreement with India on Kashmir. For instance, in one speech he mentioned that a military solution to the Kashmir problem was not possible. Similarly, he stressed that both India and Pakistan must accept the existing ground realities in Kashmir and that they should adopt a step-by-step approach to solving the dispute. He claimed that he had come to India with an open mind. He mentioned that he was born in Delhihe went to visit his ancestral house thereand made so bold to suggest that he was an Indian by birth and that is why it was but natural for him to have a soft corner for India. However, he did not exhibit such pragmatism in his talks with Vajpayee. Perhaps this was because he was fearful that if he were to adopt a pragmatic line on Kashmir he would have to face strong opposition on his return from the Pakistani populace, who have been fed on a steady diet of anti-India hatred for decades. But he should have also known that as long as Pakistan fails to enter into a mutually-acceptable agreement with India on Kashmir, Pakistans downward economic spiral cannot be halted.

In my opinion, if Musharraf had agreed to accept the status quo in Kashmir it would have meant choosing, from what is the Pakistani perspective, a lesser evil. It would have simply meant recognizing the loss of something that Pakistan had already lost decades ago. But, at the same time, it would have also brought immense benefits to Pakistan in terms of new possibilities for the country to progress and prosper. If the Pakistani Government continues to refuse to accept the Indian position on Kashmir and carries on with its undeclared war against India, it will mean not only that it will fail to capture Kashmir but also continued destruction and even greater loss for Pakistan, which presently spends much of its very limited resources on its armed forces, sparing little for the development of its people.

*A Positive Start And Positive Consequences*

Islamists in Pakistan and Hindu chauvinists in India appear to be poles apart, as inveterate enemies of each other. However, in practical terms their politics are almost identical. Both claim to be the sole saviours of their respective countries, religions and communities. But the hard fact remains that the scale of destruction that they have wrought in their own countries has not be surpassed by anyone else. Both groups are extremist in their thinking and their politics. But extremism can never work. It always fails. It can bring about no positive results at all.

Islamists have been active in Pakistan right since the countrys birth in 1947. They have apparently succeeded in having some of their demands met. But, actually, these limited victories have not done anything positive for their country. One can cite numerous instances to illustrate this point. Take just the case of Kashmir, where Islamist groups have wrongly christened and projected what is a purely communitarian or nationalist movement as an Islamic jihad. In a communitarian or nationalist struggle what is of paramount importance are the ground realities. This is why such struggles are generally characterized by a certain flexibility and they are open to compromises and adjustments in accordance with existing empirical realities. On the other hand, jihad is all about religious belief. If a movement is seen as a jihad, it loses its ability to be flexible, adjust and accept any compromise at all, because those who are engaged in what they regard as a jihad believe that even if they fail to achieve their aims and lose their lives fighting, their deaths are themselves a sign of their victory, which will, so they believe, earn them direct entry into heaven.

Secular-minded Pakistanis seem, on the whole, willing to accept adjustments with India to resolve the Kashmir conflict. But this is staunchly opposed by Pakistans Islamists, who, with their shrill, emotionally-driven rhetoric, have deluded vast numbers of Pakistanis into believing that they should continue fighting over Kashmir so much so that even if they fail to reach and capture Srinagar, the capital of Kashmir, they are bound, so they claim, to reach heaven if they keep up the ongoing war in the region. This is why the Islamists are a major hurdle to resolving the Kashmir problem and prevent the Pakistani state from adopting a policy of adjustment, negotiation and adjustment with India on Kashmir. However, the fact remains that, as history very clearly shows, the road to prosperity and success for nations is only through adopting policies of adjustment and compromise.

The Hindu chauvinists in India play the same negative role as the Pakistani Islamists in opposing any policy of adjustment and compromise with Pakistan over Kashmir. Religious fundamentalistsof all huesare characterized by an acute, and completely unwarranted, sense of self-righteousness. This inevitably leads them to extremism and militancy. They are vociferously opposed to any sort of dialogue with people outside their fold, whom they consider to be enemies. They regard themselves as wholly right, and as solely deserving of privileges, and care nothing at all for the rights of others. Since Indias independence, Hindu fundamentalist forces have grown in strength by leaps and bounds. They continue to block any agreement between India and Pakistan on Kashmir. To cite an instance, at the invitation of the Government of India, the then Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf visited India in July 2001 to talk to Indian leaders on Kashmir. However, the talks failed, and one of the reasons for this was the inflexible attitude of some Hindu fundamentalist leaders despite the feelers that Musharraf had sent out on his visit that suggested that he was ready to arrive at a negotiated settlement with India on Kashmir.

For the last forty years or so I have been consistently arguing that the only realistic and possible solution of the Kashmir conflict is for India, Pakistan and the people of Jammu and Kashmir to accept the Line of Control as an accepted and permanent international border between India and Pakistan. For Pakistan to accept this would obviously be difficult, but there is no other way out. This is why the issue needs to be handled sensitively and wisely, otherwise steps to arrive at this settlement are bound to fail. One cannot win by seeking to demean ones opponent. Rather, the way to win over ones opponent is through offering concessions in a spirit of love and concern.

*The Work To Be Done*

Several hundred years ago, a number of Sufis arrived in Kashmir and they played an instrumental role in the spread of Islam in the region so much so that the vast majority of the Kashmiri people converted to Islam. Islam became an integral part of Kashmiri culture and identity, but the sort of popular Sufism that developed in the region was based largely on cults centred on the dargahs or tomb complexes of Sufi saints. This was a ritualistic form of religion or what I call dargahi Islam or cultural Islam, which is distinct from the true understanding of Islam that trains its adherents to perceive things in a correct and far-sighted manner. This fostered a distinct lack of proper consciousness, which left the Kashmiris vulnerable to negative politics that had no relation with Islam as it truly is, and that also brought no worldly or secular benefit to them. This dargahi Islam or cultural Islam did not conduce to the development of true Islamic consciousness that should pervade the all aspects of a believers life. This is why the Kashmiris were easily exploited by self-serving leaders in the name of Islam and Muslim communalism, who used these simply as a means to promote their own interests.

This critique applies equally to secular Kashmiri leaders as well as those who speak in the name of Islam. Because of the involvement of Islamist groups in the Kashmir conflict, the scale and intensity of militancy in the region has sharply escalated over the years. Self-styled Islamist ideologues in Kashmir have for decades sought to rally the Kashmiris behind them by claiming that they want to establish in Kashmir what they call the Prophetic system of government or nizam-e mustafa. But, in actual fact, they have had nothing to offer but shrill emotionalism and wishful thinking. They, and those who follow them, have been completely swayed by empty sloganeering. The fact of the matter is that whatever they have done and are doing has been of no benefit at all to Islam, and neither has it at all helped the Kashmiris in the secular or worldly sense. Nor will it in the future. This world is a real world, a world of empirical realities. Nothing positive can come from emotionally-driven politics and rhetoric about chimerical schemes.

It has now become incumbent on the Kashmiris to reassess their entire past. Recognising and admitting their past mistakes, they must seek to chart a new course for themselves in order to build a positive and progressive future. This programme for their future should be based on three major pillars: education, economic development, and engaging in a positive mission of dawah, inviting people to the path of God. They must completely abandon the path of armed struggle. They should focus their attention instead on building high-class educational institutions. They must productively use the vast economic and other resources that their state possesses. Sadly, they have paid very little attention to this. At the same time, as Muslims they must also engage in the task of communicating the true understanding of Islam to fellow Muslims and to the non-Muslims who are fellow inhabitants of their state or who visit their state as tourists.

*Kashmir: Heaven On Earth*

For centuries, Kashmir has been known as heaven on earth. In the past, Kashmir was ruled by a series of rulers who were not indigenous inhabitants of the landPathans, Mughals, Sikhs and Dogras. But throughout this period Kashmir still remained heaven on earth. And it can still justifiably call itself so if its people now give up the path of violence, accept ground realities, and focus all their attention on education, economic development and the task of dawah.

Mere political independence in itself means nothing at all. Today, there are some sixty Muslim countries in the world, most of which won their political independence after long and bloody struggles, in the course of which their people made immense sacrifices. However, in actual fact, these countries are not really independent in the true sense of the term. Many of them, such as Pakistan and Afghanistan, are now in the throes of civil war, where rival groups are fighting each other for power. If the Kashmiris do not realize this and insist on independence, they are likely to meet the same unenviable fate. That is why they should abandon their present political struggle and, instead, concentrate on the work of positive and constructive development.

Some years ago I was invited to a conference that was held in Switzerland. I went there along with a team of my colleagues, who included an 80 year-old Kashmiri lady. Stunned at the beauty of Switzerland, she exclaimed, Our Kashmir was also equally beautiful at one time, but today it lies destroyed.

Who destroyed Kashmir? It was certainly no government that did so. Rather, the entire blame for it must be placed on the shoulders of those foolish Kashmiri leaders who, with their emotionally-driven rhetoric, completely misled their people and pushed them to the destructive path of militancy. Had they led them on the path of educational and economic advancement instead, Kashmir might today have been a model of progress and prosperity. But these incapable leaders, with their completely unrealistic dreams and empty slogans, have caused such terrible damage to the Kashmiris that it cannot possibly be undone even after a hundred years.

To conclude and to reiterate what I have been repeatedly stressing throughout this booklet, the time has now come for the Kashmiris to completely and permanently abandon the path of militancy, and, instead, to adopt the path of peace and progress. Only then can the dream of Kashmir as heaven on earth come true.


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## somya

It is litmus test of indian democracy and secular policy. We have already passed such test in Punjab, Darjeeling and NE. And there is no doubt that we will do here too. We should not forget that condition of Kashmir in last decade, there is remarkable improvement. The militants are feeling the heat and their masters too. The people are joining the democratic politics. They have representation in Indian Parliament. They are also fed up with violence and in future will know their true enemies just like Afghani did.

So just have patience, as I see opponents are getting desperate.

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## Parashuram1

TERRORISM has no solution. Only hard and fast rules.


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## Tshering22

Parashuram1 said:


> TERRORISM has no solution. Only hard and fast rules.


Hopefully, people of this part of the world would understand the words of a neutral guy like you since they don't trust us when we say the same thing.


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## somebozo

Tshering22 said:


> Correction: the terrorists for us don't want to be with us and want to join you with the pretence of some independence.



Indian politics of self assertion. In their words, even Pakistan is a renegade nation broken out of Indian Union and perhaps Afghanistan and part of Iran are as well. The "if you are not with us you are against us" will not take India anywhere. What if Kashmiri people geninunely aspire to be free from India and declare independence unilaterly like Kosovo?? you would still blame it on Pakistan??


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## KS

somebozo said:


> Indian politics of self assertion. In their words, even Pakistan is a renegade nation broken out of Indian Union and perhaps Afghanistan and part of Iran are as well. The "if you are not with us you are against us" will not take India anywhere. What if Kashmiri people geninunely aspire to be free from India and *declare independence unilaterly like Kosovo*?? you would still blame it on Pakistan??



I was thinking not to reply to this thread as its nothing but flames that will result.But the bolded part...NO..

The answer to u is:

1) We will declare emergency in Kashmir and bring it under centre rule and take all means necessary (I repeat "all means necessary" ) to make an integral part of India again

2)Which country in the world ( a powerful country) will recognise Kashmir as an independent nation.?

3) this is the most imp question: Obviously Jammu and Ladakh will not declare indepedence..which all will in Kashmir...?
I think probably only the tehsil in which the old man Geelani lives and Srinagar.


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## Areesh

> Russia or Andorra...they still have a veto reserved for us. and do u think they have forgot the years 1980-1989..No ..
> And that is a advantage for India.



Use that veto kid it doesn't matters anything to us. Nothing would change with Russia's veto power. 



> Y go to human history and all...I think India should do wat ur "deeper than ocean" friend did in Tibet and doing in Xinjiang.



Do you think your nation is some match with China? Come on kid you are dreaming too high. 



> If wishes were only lemons u would be having the mother of all sore throats.



Lolzzz. 



> Yes India is hell for ppl thinking abt compromising our territorial integrity.



Territorial integrity and that of India? I never knew the so called territorial integrity of India ever exists. Yeah in kids delusional world strange things do happen. This integrity may be the same case.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> Use that veto kid it doesn't matters anything to us. Nothing would change with Russia's veto power.



Y dont u try it out.? but the result will not be pleasant...lol




Areesh said:


> Do you think your nation is some match with China? Come on kid you are dreaming too high.



y dont u look in the mirror wen u say the same thing abt Pakistan and India...surely that is morely appropriate....




Areesh said:


> Territorial integrity and that of India? I never knew the so called territorial integrity of India ever exists. Yeah in kids delusional world strange things do happen. This integrity may be the same case.



hehehe...flying high heh..? btw ur dancing is good (ofcourse on the keyboard ) ..btw we also gave sovereignity and territorial integrity to one of ur former provinces..:

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## Areesh

> Y dont u try it out.? but the result will not be pleasant...lol



Sorry to say but russia's position is like that woman who has been raped and is now trying to regain her virginity.  Anyways that pathetic veto doesn't matter much to us.



> y dont u look in the mirror wen u say the same thing abt Pakistan and India...surely that is morely appropriate....



You are no comparison with China better associate yourself with your best friend former Soviet Union. You also share the same future like their past specially of 1980-1989. 



> btw ur dancing is good (ofcourse on the keyboard )



I always thought that Indians are perfect when it comes to dance and mujra but anyways your keyboard masturbation isn't bad either.



> btw we also gave sovereignity and territorial integrity to one of ur former provinces..:



That is your short sightedness kid. Now their are two who hate you and your country. Anyways that territorial integrity of Indian thing was a great joke. Keep it up.


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## EjazR

*Kashmir Images :: Across the LoC*

_Omar survives but Haider goes
AJK PM tenders resignation ahead on confidence motion_

Islamabad, jULY 26: While the government on Indian side of Jammu and Kashmir has seemingly survived the prevailing crisis in the Valley, the local government here proved less fortunate.

Raja Farooq Haider, the Prime Minister of Azad Jammu and Kashmir was forced to resign Monday as Federal Government sponsored no-confidence motion, planned on Tuesday, was anyhow going to throw him out of the office.

Haider made the announcement of his resignation while addressing a press conference here on Monday.
His resignation came a day before the vote on a non-confidence motion against him takes places.
The opposition group led by a faction of the ruling Muslim Conference claimed that 18 of 24 cabinet members had resigned and deserted the premier.
The no-confidence motion was submitted by 11 members on Friday and the speaker called a session of the AJK Legislative Assembly on Tuesday morning for a vote. It is the third time a no-confidence motion was moved against the sitting prime minister since 2006 election.

According to sources, Raja Farooq Haider decided to resign in consultation with PML-N chief Nawaz Sharif. Addressing a news conference in Islamabad, Haider said he had sent his resignation to AJK President Raja Zulqarnain.

Haider alleged that the Pakistan People's Party, which is in power at the centre, was behind the no-confidence motion against him.
Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani was involved in a "conspiracy" to remove him, Haider further alleged.

The names of persons who are not even members of the AJK assembly were mentioned in the motion, he contended. *Haider said ministers had been making demands that their sons should be recruited in high positions and that their relatives should be appointed as judges.*

"I worked for nine months in the benefit of Pakistan," an angry Haider said. He also alleged that there was interference from the federal government.

*Haider is the third prime minister of AJK to resign in four years. He was also the third person to be elected to the post by the current assembly. *Senior PPP leader and Information Minister Qamar Zaman Kaira said Haider's Muslim Conference party was facing a rift and this is the main reason for his resignation.

Kaira said the federal government had no role in the matter. He also pointed out that the PPP has only seven members in the AJK assembly.

The legislative assembly is expected to elect a new prime minister soon.

Haider-led government fell apart from the federal government as he resisted Islamabad&#8217;s decision to cut budget allocation to the part of Kashmir under Pakistani control.

Sources said that both the PPP government at Islamabad and the Army were cross with Haider and wanted him out &#8216;at any cost.&#8217;
&#8220;While people here were watching the situation in Indian part of Kashmir and apprehending that Omar Abdullah may have to quit, they were shocked to know that while Omar continues, their own PM, Haider had to tender resignation,&#8221; said a political activist.

*&#8220;Though we vehemently condemn human rights violations in Indian part of Kashmir but at the same time we have to admit that democratic institutions there are more strong than those here,&#8221; said a journalist on the conditions of anonymity.*


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## KS

Areesh said:


> Sorry to say but russia's position is like that woman who has been raped and is now trying to regain her virginity.  Anyways that pathetic veto doesn't matter much to us.



Or to put more appropirately...a bear that was itself bitten...so wait for it to retaliate.



Areesh said:


> You are no comparison with China better associate yourself with your best friend former Soviet Union. You also share the same future like their past specially of 1980-1989.



I just love ur insecurity that is on full flow..u cant compete with us..so u bring in China to cover up ur insecurity and inflate that lil ego. 




Areesh said:


> I always thought that* Indians are perfect when it comes to dance* and mujra but anyways y*our keyboard masturbation isn't bad either*.



thats y ur singers are flocking to India..btw for the part in red,gettting recognition from the master itself...gr8 honor for me. 





Areesh said:


> That is your short sightedness* kid.* Now their are two who hate you and your country. Anyways that territorial integrity of Indian thing was a great joke. Keep it up.



im sooo scared bachoo...chal enough ....go to ur pre-kg class..ur miss is searching for u by now...

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## Areesh

> Or to put more appropirately...a bear that was itself bitten...so wait for it to retaliate.



Yes a bear. I know. I have seen bears.  








> I just love ur insecurity that is on full flow..u cant compete with us..so u bring in China to cover up ur insecurity and inflate that lil ego.



It wqas you who brought china dear. Remember. I just showed you the truth that your country isn't worthy enough that you can compare itself with China. Just gave you a reality and that made you forgot that it was you who brought china in between the issue.



> thats y ur singers are flocking to India..btw for the part in red,gettting recognition from the master itself...gr8 honor for me.



Now where the fcuk singers get into the discussion. You Indians need anything to make you live happy in your wonderland. Anyways so this is what you require to be happy in your wonderland, OK I got it. 



> im sooo scared bachoo...chal enough ....go to ur pre-kg class..ur miss is searching for u by now...



I thought it was your time to change the diapers. Have you forgot your timetable it is time to have a change.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> Yes a bear. I know. I have seen bears.



Or rather this...Click





Areesh said:


> It wqas you who brought china dear. Remember. I just showed you the truth that your country isn't worthy enough that you can compare itself with China. Just gave you a reality and that made you forgot that it was you who brought china in between the issue.



Wat i said is also true "dear"..lollzzz




Areesh said:


> Now *where the fcuk singers get into the discussion.* You Indians need anything to make you live happy in your wonderland. Anyways so this is what you require to be happy in your wonderland, OK I got it.



From the same place dance,mujra,keyboard masturbation got into the discussion...




Areesh said:


> I thought it was your time to change the diapers. Have you forgot your timetable it is time to have a change.



hahaha....wait i ll tell ur miss....anyway not a big joke especially if reverse engineered from mine.

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## Areesh

> Or rather this...Click



Don't worry this bear's claw, teeth all have been taken care of. It can provide some service to the circus though. 



> Wat i said is also true "dear"..lollzzz



What you said. You just said crap so received a proper answer for it. You can't even compare your country to even a single province of china and a dumbas* here is comparing his garbage country to whole of china. Lolzzz What a joke. 




> From the same place dance,mujra,keyboard masturbation got into the discussion...



Same place.Humm. OK India I got it. Thank You. 



> hahaha....wait i ll tell ur miss....anyway not a big joke especially if reverse engineered from mine.



Have you finished changing diapers or they are too expensive for you to buy. China manufactures cheap diapers ask your mom to buy those. China might help India in this regard.


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## roach

hahaha keep it going you two.......this is really entertaining

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## KS

Areesh said:


> Don't worry this bear's claw, teeth all have been taken care of. It can provide some service to the circus though.



Wrong info..they r regenerated with metal claws and teeth...science has advanced a lot these days.....watched wolverine..? lolllz

btw they also have a tiger with them now....




Areesh said:


> What you said. You just said crap so received a proper answer for it. You can't even compare your country to even a single province of china and a dumbas* here is comparing his garbage country to whole of china. Lolzzz What a joke.



ok lets straighten this out...Are u a Chinese or Pakistani.?

If ur a Pakistani I have some news for u..

*The GDP of the state i live in now (Maharashtra) has almost half ur entire countrie's GDP.*

Still wanna compare numb head??...lol

I just brought in China to illustrate how violently they repressed and crushed the Tibetan independence movement.

I know u will convineintly ignore this and continue..But hey i have made my point and that thing not going to ur head is not my problem.





Areesh said:


> Same place.Humm. OK India I got it. Thank You.



hehehe no wonder ur still in pre-kg...now lets hear u telling ABCD...without looking into book 





Areesh said:


> Have you finished changing diapers or they are too expensive for you to buy. China manufactures cheap diapers ask your mom to buy those. China might help India in this regard.



Doesnt ur country manufacture..? why going to China..And by the way do u also drink Chinese milk..cos i think all the melamine and other chemicals have got to ur head..

*The next instance u mention my mom..i think our conversation will loose its civility..so beware.*

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## Tshering22

Well our government needs to take serious steps to crush terrorism once and for all so that people can earn through J&K's true source of income: Tourism.

Just because of a bunch of ill-headed policy makers we're stuck in limbo for the past 60 years.


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## Areesh

> Wrong info..they r regenerated with metal claws and teeth...science has advanced a lot these days.....watched wolverine..? lolllz



They are too old enough to go any further advancement. They can have employment in the circus though. 



> btw they also have a tiger with them now....



Better provide a diaper to this tiger. Russia must help the tiger in getting some good diapers. 



> ok lets straighten this out...Are u a Chinese or Pakistani.?



Not of your concern.



> The GDP of the state i live in now (Maharashtra) has almost half ur entire countrie's GDP.



So who cares... 



> I just brought in China to illustrate how violently they repressed and crushed the Tibetan independence movement.



So what:? Who cares again. Tibet is the integral part of China and both tibetans and their fathers would have to accept this fact. If they won't accept this fact, they would be forced to accept it. 



> hehehe no wonder ur still in pre-kg...now lets hear u telling ABCD...without looking into book



Lolzzz 



> Doesnt ur country manufacture..? why going to China..And by the way do u also drink Chinese milk..cos i think all the melamine and other chemicals have got to ur head..



China prepares cheap and poor Indians need it. And so does you. Just because of this poverty you are unable to wear diapers and have to live a life fill with wetness. 



> The next instance u mention my mom..i think our conversation will loose its civility..so beware.



Or else what will you do. Commit suicide. OK no problem.


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## Areesh

roach said:


> hahaha keep it going you two.......this is really entertaining



Thank you.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> They are too old enough to go any further advancement. They can have employment in the circus though.



As i said science is too advanced these days....





Areesh said:


> Better provide a diaper to this tiger. Russia must help the tiger in getting some good diapers.



Tigers dont need diapers..but i think u need it wen it growls and comes onto u....hehehe





Areesh said:


> Not of your concern.
> So who cares...



Of course its my concern....because ui were making kidddish comparison between India and China u being a Pakistani....

Ok next time u become an internet-Chinese,,i ll become an internet American and see u...lolzzzz

Are u feeling low as a Pakistani that everytime u think ur a Chinese and then talk to me...poor creature pity u...



Areesh said:


> So what:? Who cares again. Tibet is the integral part of China and both tibetans and their fathers would have to accept this fact. *If they won't accept this fact, they would be forced to accept it. *



Thanx for the pearls of wisdom...o great one.

we ll apply this same principle to the Kashmiris...



Areesh said:


> China prepares cheap and poor Indians need it. And so does you. Just because of this poverty you are unable to wear diapers and have to live a life fill with wetness.



yes..it is confirmed..it is the melamine contaminated milk that is having this effect on u....lollzzz...

Giving to the rest of the world is ok...But to their "deeper-than-ocean-friend" also..:mo:...Bad Chinese....





Areesh said:


> Or else what will you do. Commit suicide. OK no problem.



Dumazz ..i ll make u commit suicide...by telling the same abt ur.s.


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## Areesh

> As i said science is too advanced these days....



And as I said science isn't advance enough to make a circus bear a super hero. It's all over for the poor bear.



> Tigers dont need diapers..but i think u need it wen it growls and comes onto u....hehehe



But this tiger needs a diaper. It is a eunuch tiger in fact. 



> Of course its my concern....because ui were making kidddish comparison between India and China u being a Pakistani....



Lolzzz Forgot again it was you who was comparing your garbage country with china so I just kicked your as* on this crap. I didn't started comparing India and China at the first place. I know their is no comparison. India is a ....................... and China is a future super power. 



> Ok next time u become an internet-Chinese,,i ll become an internet American and see u...lolzzzz



I don't need to become chinese dear, yeah you can become American. I understand how humiliating it is to be an Indian.



> Are u feeling low as a Pakistani that everytime u think ur a Chinese and then talk to me...poor creature pity u...



I never claim I a chinese it is you who is reading my posts with his as*. Anyways it is not of your concern who I am. I am not in a mood to tell you my nationality. When I would be in the mood I would tell you. 



> we ll apply this same principle to the Kashmiris...



Just do it.  



> yes..it is confirmed..it is the melamine contaminated milk that is having this effect on u....lollzzz...
> 
> Giving to the rest of the world is ok...But to their "deeper-than-ocean-friend" also..:mo:...Bad Chinese....



If it wouldn't be that melamine contaminated milk what have you done in your childhood. You also use to feed on that milk. Anyways have you collected the money to buy the diaper? If not than you can sit in front of any mosque in India. Your country men would surely help you. 



> Dumazz ..i ll make u commit suicide...by telling the same abt ur.s.



Dreaming high again...

Being an Indian you can only do two things. Commit suicide or piss at the side of the road. I think first option would be more suitable for you.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> And as I said science isn't advance enough to make a circus bear a super hero. It's all over for the poor bear.



In ur country maybe...but in the rest of the world it is advanced enough..

thats y mayb every year thousands of ur country men come to my country for heart surgery and other surgeries.:;;lollzzz





Areesh said:


> But this tiger needs a diaper. It is a eunuch tiger in fact.



Even an eunuch tiger is enough for a mouse like u....




Areesh said:


> Lolzzz Forgot again it was you who was comparing your garbage country with china so I just kicked your as* on this crap. I didn't started comparing India and China at the first place. I know their is no comparison. *India is a ....................... and China is a future super power. *



lollz..again the little,inferiority complex dominated ego on display again.
kid..then wat will be Pakistan..? 

As far as kicking my azz....kid im 6 ft high...u will not even be the same height of my azz..or do pre-kg children in Pakistan measure more than 6 ft..?




Areesh said:


> I don't need to become chinese dear, yeah you can become American. I understand how humiliating it is to be an Indian.



Im speakling from the ground of a proud Indian comparing my own country..but u lil clown ur acting like a wannabe Chinese speaking abt their achievements as if its ur own.
Talk abt ur countries achievemnts vs mine..not a third country.





Areesh said:


> If it wouldn't be that melamine contaminated milk what have you done in your childhood. You also use to feed on that milk.



Owned...I used to drink pure cow's milk and goat' milk..not melamine comtaminated milk from ur deeper than ocean friend..




Areesh said:


> ways have you collected the money to buy the diaper? If not than you can sit in front of any mosque in India. Your country men would surely help you.



Yes my country men will help me regard less of religion....but i heard in Pakistan Sunnis help only Sunnis but not Shias or Ahmedis....leave alone Hindus or Christians..
Poor one...:facepalm:






Areesh said:


> Dreaming high again...
> Being an Indian you can only do two things. Commit suicide or piss at the side of the road. I think first option would be more suitable for you.



And the next time i ll come and piss in the Jhelum so that u guys dont cry for water from us..


----------



## Areesh

> thats y mayb every year thousands of ur country men come to my country for heart surgery and other surgeries.:;;lollzzz



So bears also come for medical surgeries.  Then you can help your old friend. 



> Even an eunuch tiger is enough for a mouse like u....



Eunuch tiger can only dance in front of a mouse. That is the only capability such tigers have. 



> kid..then wat will be Pakistan..?



It will be ready to make pain in your as* and you and many other cheap shots would be getting suspended and banned on different Pakistani forums. But again due to your obsession with Pakistan you would be making profiles to join any Pakistani forum.



> .kid im 6 ft high



OH so you are a long dumbas*. 




> u will not even be the same height of my azz.



I am also 6ft by the way. I never knew you Indians have your as* on your face. Strange. 



> Im speakling from the ground of a proud Indian comparing my own country..



Take it this way. A cheap Indias from a cheap low class stinky country. Now that looks better. 



> but u lil clown ur acting like a wannabe Chinese speaking abt their achievements as if its ur own.



It was just a reality check. Looks like that reality check tore your as* apart. 



> Talk abt ur countries achievemnts vs mine..not a third country.



Why should I. Why should I compare my country with yours. I cannot humiliate my country by comparing it with bullshi*.



> Owned...I used to drink pure cow's milk and goat' milk..



You Indians are famous for drinking many things from cow. I think you have mistaken milk with something else. The one drink isn't called as milk in the real world. . Correct yourself.



> Yes my country men will help me regard less of religion.....



So you would be wearing diapers while posting next time. Good. Keep it up.



> And the next time i ll come and piss in the Jhelum so that u guys dont cry for water from us..



Looks like your countrymen has made your whole country polluted by pissing everywhere so you want to piss in Jehlum. OK I understand your problem. Ofcourse you need some place better to piss and such places aren't found in India. The whole country is flooding with piss.


----------



## KS

Areesh said:


> So bears also come for medical surgeries. Then you can help your old friend.



If we can give for Pakistanis...why not for bears..? 





Areesh said:


> Eunuch tiger can only dance in front of a mouse. That is the only capability such tigers have.



U seem to be knowing an awful lot abt eunuch tigers,...by any chance are u one..? 





Areesh said:


> It will be ready to make pain in your as* and you and many other cheap shots would be getting suspended and banned on different Pakistani forums. But again due to your obsession with Pakistan you would be making profiles to join any Pakistani forum.



U think im here because im in some kinda love with Pakistan. ..wats use of debating if everyone thinks the same.I need some spice in my debating..thats y here and not in Indian forums and i will not loose my life if im banned.





Areesh said:


> OH so you are a long dumbas*.



yep....and u seem to be a puny numbhead. 





Areesh said:


> I am also 6ft by the way. I never knew you Indians have your as* on your face. Strange.



Is it also not strange that u pakistanis have kidneys in place of brains (no offence to others)





Areesh said:


> Take it this way. A cheap Indias from a cheap low class stinky country. Now that looks better.



And u guys cry wen some one mentions the words Aid,IMF etc etc..strange world. 





Areesh said:


> It was just a reality check. Looks like that reality check tore your as* apart.



Nope wen u have the courage to compare Pakistan with India..then on that day mayb my Azz will tear. :facepalm: 





Areesh said:


> Why should I. Why should I compare my country with yours. I cannot humiliate my country by comparing it with bullshi*.



After so much pullings..atleast ur starting to have a heart to mention ur country instead of a third country..good..carry on..





Areesh said:


> You Indians are famous for drinking many things from cow. I think you have mistaken milk with something else. The one drink isn't called as milk in the real world. . Correct yourself.



Atleast we drink only cowpiss...u drink melamine milk just because its cheap..
If u want tell..i ll send u cowpiss for half the cost of that melamine milk..or better i ll just give it as aid.





Areesh said:


> Looks like your countrymen has made your whole country polluted by pissing everywhere so you want to piss in Jehlum. OK I understand your problem. Ofcourse you need some place better to piss and such places aren't found in India. The whole country is flooding with piss.



Ok dont cry...i ll ask my friends to piss in Chenab also...double bonus..


----------



## dabong1

fateh71 said:


> The same cherry picked idiotic argument, as there are hindus left in india, that means they were not persecuted, as there are temples left in india, none were destroyed!



Who said that not a single temple was not destroyed during muslim rule?
What i can say for sure is that not every single temple in india was destroyed by the muslims during there rule.
The stupid assumption that muslim where on a non stop quest to destroy every hindus and there temples is just that .....stupid.





fateh71 said:


> Using logic to deny Guru Tegh Bahadur's martyrdom,



I deny the gurus martyrdom as much as you deny the martyrdom of Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale





fateh71 said:


> to overlook the court documents, to deny history of somnath and nalanda is exactly what an apologist would do, use 'logic'.



There you go again cherry picking a few examples out in thousand year timeline........logic.....if the muslims wanted they could have destroyed all the temple in that time period but they did not and by giving a few isolated example is the same as me saying you attacked and burnt the holiest place for sikh and that all that people need to know on how tolerant the hindus are to sikhs.





fateh71 said:


> Hey there are millions of muslims in kashmir even after 60 yrs of indian rule, thats proof enough that our rule is very tolerant compared to the now de hinduised valley of kashmir thanks to your well trained heroes! There, suck on your own 'logic'



Sounds like logic to me.....except where you have killed tens of thousands....


----------



## KS

dabong1 said:


> Who said that not a single temple was not destroyed during muslim rule?
> What i can say for sure is that not every single temple in india was destroyed by the muslims during there rule.
> The stupid assumption that muslim where on a non stop quest to destroy every hindus and there temples is just that .....stupid.



Who said all temples were destroyed during the Muslim rule..?
Wat I said was innumerable temples were looted and destroyed by the invading hordes.
Actually It was not as if the invaders didn try to destroy them..they simply couldn destroy all of them.Get the difference.

And as for the "stupid assumption"...it is equally stupid for u to cry over one destroyed mosque even though it itself was built on top of another destroyed temple.:wave"




dabong1 said:


> I deny the gurus martyrdom as much as you deny the martyrdom of Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale



Dont compare the Sikh gurus with Bhindranwale..It is an insult to the holy souls who gave up their life defending the country from alien invaders.





dabong1 said:


> There you go again cherry picking a few examples out in thousand year timeline........logic.....if the muslims wanted they could have destroyed all the temple in that time period but they did not and by giving a few isolated example is the same as me saying you attacked and burnt the holiest place for sikh and that all that people need to know on how tolerant the hindus are to sikhs.




First it was not a 1000 year period...rather it was exactly 651 years from the rise of Delhi Sultanate in 1206 to the fall of Mohammed Zafar in 1857..even though the Marathas and Sikhs were kicking the rear end of the Mughals for some time then.

Secondly Cherry picking isolated instances.?!?!?!U must be outta ur mind.Some of the holiest places of hinduism like Somnath,Ayodhya were looted,pillages and destroyed.How would u feel if someone looted Mecca and Madina even though they were just two places.

Thirdly some bigots like Khilji,Aurangazeb tried their level best to convert the ppl into Islam at the point of the sword but instead of doing the ppl were ready to lay down their lives rather than giving up on the faith theu believed in.
Only some ppl who thought life as more important gave up their original faith and took up the one imposed on them.

And lastly are u a Sikh??...If not buzz of.Dont shed crocodile tears for them..The Muslim rulers have done greater injustice to them than any of the Hindus.




dabong1 said:


> Sounds like logic to me.....except where you have killed tens of thousands....



Nothing compared to the millions in the 651 year rule.


----------



## democracyspeaks

dabong1 said:


> Get your facts right.......if we wanted to force people into islam dont you think we would have converted all the hindus in india during the reign of the muslims?
> The kashmiris that converted where all living there and where hindus.......so the logic becauce they converted they cant be kashmiri is stupid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Better if you leave kashmir to the kashmris and go back to india where you came from........where not indian and will never be indian.




You just keep on proving how illiterate you are, but never the less, theres something called as GOOGLE.

Read about a Son of a whore called "sikandar butshikan" and you will know Kashmir belongs only to KASHMIRI PANDITS


----------



## Tshering22

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *Hindu minority homeless in Kashmir ​*
> UPDATED ON:
> Thursday, July 15, 2010
> 10:42 Mecca time, 07:42 GMT
> 
> YouTube - Hindu minority homeless in Kashmir
> 
> Muslim separatist groups have been fighting Indian rule in Kashmir for two decades. New Delhi blames Pakistan for supporting them. Pakistan denies the claim.
> 
> Tens of thousands of people have been killed in the conflict.
> 
> In the lead-up to talks between the two countriesin Islamabad on Thursday, Al Jazeera takes a closer look at the Kashmir unrest.
> 
> Al Jazeera's Prerna Suri reports from Srinagar about the region's Hindu minority left homeless by years of violence.
> 
> Hindu minority homeless in Kashmir - CENTRAL/S. ASIA - Al Jazeera English


Ohh these are one of those who were thrown out of the region because some peace loving radicals massacred their relatives and exiled them from the state. Why blaming Indian government for something the lovely radicals in valley did.


----------



## EjazR

*Violence will not solve problems, Abdullah tells people | TwoCircles.net*

By IANS,

Srinagar: Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah Wednesday said violence had not provided an answer to problems in the past nor would it do so in future and stressed that shutdowns the state has seen in the last month would only cause public inconvenience and hamper children's education.

"When effective democratic means are available to register protests and put one's viewpoint across, there is no reason for perpetrating violence and putting general public to hardships and difficulties," Abdullah said while addressing people in north Kashmir's Handwara town.

"My government is committed to facilitate dialogue between all shades of opinion in the state and the central government. We are positively working in this direction. We also favour sustained dialogue between India and Pakistan," he said.

Abdullah sought public support for the success of his efforts in this direction.

The chief minister said shutdowns only led to public discomfort and badly affected children's education.

"These tactics are in no way in anybody's interest. These only mar the livelihood opportunities of poor and hamper the process of economic growth."

"When the platform of talks is available to all shades of opinion, what is the need of disturbing peaceful life of the people?" he asked.

*Abdullah took a dig at those instigating adolescent children to take to stone-pelting and said: "This is the most unfortunate behaviour of those politicians who mar the future of the young generation while protecting the interests of their own children".*

*Representatives of the Handwara bar association, traders' federation, fruit growers union, youth organisations and many prominent citizens spoke at the meeting and explained various aspects of development and the difficulties faced by the people in the area.*

*Wednesday's interaction is part of the chief minister's efforts to reach out to the people of the Kashmir Valley in order to end the cycle of violence that started June 11.*

The valley has been virtually paralysed due to violent protests against civilians being killed in firing by security forces. At least 15 people have been killed in firing by security personnel across the Kashmir Valley since June 11.


----------



## rsingh

Kashmiris donot pay any taxes and they are provided best quality food grains at very cheap prices. center sends thousands of crores every year to kashmir. Now when the kashmirs are getting all these facilities without doing any thing would they be bothered about tourism.


----------



## EjazR

*Army rescues 500 families in north Kashmir - Hindustan Times*

The army on the intervening night of Tuesday-Wednesday rescued 500 families caught in flash floods triggered by cloudburst and rains in the Rishi Canal in north Kashmir's Bandipora district. An army spokesman said that five square kilometre area of Malangan village was threatened by the flash
floods in the canal.

"The army unit deployed in the area immediately rushed to the area and rescued 400-500 families marooned," said the spoeksman.

The worst hit areas were Sheikhmuquam and Turkpura. The spokesman said the rescue efforts continued till late in the night.

Additional reinforcements were rushed in to provide assistance to the operation.

"Food packets, medicines and provisions are being provided to the locals," said the spokesman.

Many survivors were shifted to a nearby raised ground where they will camp till water levels recedes in the area.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


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## KS

Surprisingly (or not!!!) no replies to this thread from the other side.


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## SpArK

Good news ... but there is nothing surprising here. Army always help who needs care..


----------



## EjazR

*Kashmir situation still retrievable: Saifuddin Soz (Interview)*

Congress leader Saifuddin Soz says the situation in Jammu and Kashmir, which has seen angry protests by stone-pelting mobs and 17 civilian deaths in the past month, is 'still retrievable', but 'the quality of governance has to improve'.

'There is no point in blaming just Chief Minister Omar Abdullah. The buck does not stop at Omar's door only,' Soz, 73, the state Congress chief, told IANS in an interview at his residence here.

'The quality of governance has to improve in the state,' said Soz, who is a Rajya Sabha member and a former union minister. Abdullah's National Conference rules Kashmir in alliance with the Congress.

'I think the performance of ministers - both of my party and the coalition partner National Conference - and the bureaucrats should improve,' Soz said. 'The ministers and leaders have to realise that politics is not for enjoyment. They have to reconnect to people,' he said.

He said the situation 'is still retrievable if steps are taken to understand the grievances of people'.

'Despite the volatile situation I toured south Kashmir last week. At Anantnag, I had addressed a meeting which was attended by 2,000 people. They did not throw stones. But they talked to us about their problems in daily life,' he said.

'I am going to Kashmir Friday. Come and see the ground situation. Do not report Kashmir sitting in Delhi alone. Kashmir is not about stone-pelting only,' he said.

Soz was a union minister in the United Progressive Alliance government as a Congress nominee and a minister in earlier United Front governments led by H.D. Deve Gowda and I.K. Gujral as a National Conference nominee.

Soz said Kashmiris should be provided immediate relief. 'Kashmiris are very sensitive,' he said.

'Seventy thousand people have lost their lives in the past 20 years. Even the families of the 55 people who were killed in firing during the Amarnath land row agitation in 2008 are to be rehabilitated,' he said.

Soz said the state police and paramilitary forces should work together to avoid killings and serious injuries while dealing with stone-pelters. 'Rubber bullets and non-fatal methods should be used to deal with ordinary protests,' he said.

At least 17 civilians, mostly teenagers and youths, have been killed in firing in Kashmir in the past four weeks as stone-pelters clashed with security forces in Srinagar and other towns of the valley. Curfew was clamped on several towns and the army called in to stand by for several days.

*Soz said 'truckloads of stones were being supplied to protestors'. 'There had been organised efforts in the protests'.*

He also said Pakistan was losing influence in Kashmir. 'The influence of Pakistan is waning in the valley. Nobody raises the slogan 'Pakistan zindabad' nowadays,' he said.

'The slogan 'Hum chahte hain azaadi' (We want freedom) is raised often at political, social and religious gatherings. Do not misinterpret it all as calls for a seperate country, which is impractical,' he said.

Soz said 'azaadi' means different things for different people on different occasions. 'For some Kashmiris, it may be a way of voicing their civic grievances; for others it may be a way of protesting the excesses of the security forces.'

*Soz said 250,000 people had enrolled as Congress members in the valley. 'This is a record, a new political history in Kashmir,' he claimed. He said nearly 1,000 Kashmiri youngsters applied to become Youth Congress office-bearers.*

'That proves that all Kashmiris are not stone-pelters. And Kashmir is not about stone- pelting alone. That is a limited view by a section of the media from Delhi,' he said.

He said the central and state governments were working together to restore the situation. 'You will hear of measures soon. The National Conference and the Congress are united in tackling the problem,' he said.

He ruled out the chance of governor's rule in the state.

Soz said an economic package was urgently needed for the state, which has been ravaged by militancy. Unemployment is acute, with opportunities lacking in the private sector.

So as a Congress leader does he have any problems working with National Conference leaders Farooq Abdullah and Omar?

'Not at all. We are united in the alliance. I had left the National Conference over a matter of principle,' he said.


----------



## EjazR

*Education should not suffer due to strike: J&K Governor, CM - Hindustan Times*

With education hit badly by separatist-sponsored strikes, Jammu and Kashmir Governor N N Vohra on Wednesday convened a meeting of Vice Chancellors and called for taking effective measures to ensure studies are not affected under any circumstances by the prevailing situation in the
Valley.

"Effective measures must be taken to ensure that the educational system is not allowed to be affected under any circumstances and innovative measures implemented to make good the academic losses in the best interest of the students", the Governor said addressing the meeting held in Raj Bhavan on Wednesday.

The meeting was convened as a sequel to the discussions the Governor and the Chief Minister had last week in which need was felt to discuss required measures for making up of the academic losses which may have arisen on account of the recent developments in the Kashmir Valley.

Chief Minister Omar Abdullah asked the Vice Chancellors to ensure that the educational system and the careers of the students are not affected.

"The career of the students is of paramount importance and it is the responsibility of all of us to see that this does not in any way get affected. The teachers, students, parents and the civil society would need to come forward and ensure that neither the studies of the students nor the healthcare of patients suffers, " Omar said.

Omar also said "everything possible would be done to facilitate the education of students so that the career and the future of the youth do not suffer in any way."


----------



## BATMAN

Nothing can undo the attrocities which Kashmiris have suffered from generations.
indiscriminate killing of innocent Kashmiris should stop immediately..... it is inhuman to kill childrens on the basis of the religon of their parents.


----------



## Kavin

Hi Areesh & Karthic Sri

I miss you both so much. pls come again


----------



## EjazR

Anantnag killings: Magisterial probe nails police- Kashmir Times


SHABIR-UL-HAQ
ANANTNAG, July 29: The magisterial enquiry team formed by the government into the killing of three teenagers on June 29 here has established the involvement of the police into the incident and has recommended action against the culprits.

Sources said that the enquiry team today submitted its report to the Deputy Commissioner, Anantnag, Jaipal Singh. He would forward the report to the higher authorities. Sources said that the report has found that the police men including some officers of the sub-inspector rank have been found involved in firing on the
youth.
&#8220;Minutes before the incident took place a Rakhshak vehicle carrying six police men including some officers chased the youth protesting at Laizbal area of K.P road upto the S.K colony, where from they got down and three of them entered inside a by lane leading towards Anchidora area where seven persons were found lying in a pool of blood. Some of them were fired at inside the compound of a residential house,&#8221; said the sources quoting the report.

They said that the enquiry team has also held responsible the top officials of police and civil administration for dereliction in duties and suggested action against them too. The enquiry team in its report according to the sources has observed that chasing away the youth up to such a long distance was not the right decision on part of the police officers deployed in the area.

&#8220;Though the police men who fired on the youth after returning from the spot did not conceal the facts before the higher ups to hide their wrong doing but the top police and administrative officials who were supposed to preserve the circumstantial evidences also showed negligence in finding the facts,&#8221; the report according to sources reads.
The enquiry team in its report according to the sources also blames the concerned police officers of manipulating the FIR and not furnishing the accurate details about the use of ammunition by the suspected police men. The enquiry team sources said in its report has recommended the action against the police men and other officials as per their level of
involvement.

However, sources without divulging the identification of the police men confirmed that the three cops have fired upon the youth from a very close range. They further said that the accused police men have already confessed their crime during the course of investigation.

When contacted, Additional Deputy Commissioner Anantnag who was
heading the enquiry team confirmed that the report has been submitted to Deputy Commissioner Anantnag this evening. However, he refused to divulge any details regarding the report.
Meanwhile, a policeman arrested yesterday by the Special
Investigation Team (SIT) in connection with the killings of three
youth in Anantnag has been remanded to five day police custody by the Chief Judicial Magistrate (CJM) Anantnag today.

The three youth Shujat-ul-Islam, Ishtiyaq Ahmad Khanday and Imtiyaz Ahmad Itoo were allegedly murdered in cold blood in SK colony area of Anantnag on May 29 after the police chased away the youth protesting against the CRPF firing on a teenaged boy who recieved bullet injuries in his leg in Mattan chowk area that morning. The government ordered magisterial enquiry into the incident while as the police initiated separate investigations into the incident through a special investigation team (SIT). The SIT during the course of investigation succeeded in recording the statements of two prime witnesses including a policeman into the incident before CJM. On the revelations made by the two witnesses in their statements, the SIT yesterday made the arrest of a suspected cop in terms of section 54 CRPC and also seized a Rakshak gypsy.
Sources said that the SIT today moved an application before the CJM
seeking police remand for the cop.
The SIT today produced the policeman before the CJM
Anantnag Jeema Bashir, who sent him to the police remand for five
days.
&#8220;The SIT sought the remand for the cop following the important
revelations made by him during the interrogation," said the sources.
They said that the SIT may conduct the identification parade of all
the suspected policemen into the incident in next five days.
Meanwhile the magisterial enquiry team formed by the government to
Investigate.




*71 persons in custody: Police*
KT NEWS SERVICE
SRINAGAR, July 29 : A police spokesman today claimed that there are only 71 persons in police custody, who were arrested following eruption of law and order problems in the Valley and not hundreds as reported by a section of media.

*He added that police had arrested 930 persons across the valley under various preventive measures in connection with several stone pelting and peace disruption incidents from May 1 to July 27.
Of them, according to the spokesman, 851 persons were released in consultation with their parents and senior citizens of the respective areas. The parents of these youth assured of their good moral character in future and they were subsequently released leaving just 71 persons in police custody. There is no truth that hundreds of youth have been arrested and are presently in police custody, the spokesman clarified.

The spokesman further said that during the same period 330 incidents of violence took place in the valley in which 795 police personnel were injured against only 78 civilian injuries. This, he said, is in addition to the 136 injuries suffered to the CRPF personnel.*


----------



## EjazR

*Delusions of a Stone Pelter -- GreaterKashmir.com*

_Just think what this act of yours has done. It has brought us nothing but dishonour and destruction, Dr. Wasim Ahmed responds to the article I am a stone pelter._

Unlike the &#8220;stone pelter&#8221; of today I don&#8217;t have a short yet comprehensive introduction because the ordeals we have gone through forced us to assume multiple roles in life all for the sake of our nation and our people. We pelted stones when needed, protested when required, won debates when challenged and at present treat people when oppressed. For first twelve years of life we had never heard the word &#8220;Jihad&#8221; in our life nor had we seen any bloodshed. Our first entry into adolescence was concomitant with the birth of massacres, bomb blasts and gunfire. We never had the time to ask WHY, WHAT and HOW. The massacres and human rights violations that had started were self explanatory.

The &#8220;stone pelter&#8221; of today is confused as why the same Moulvi Sahib who supported us for protesting and pelting stones in nineties has issued a Fatwa against it. He is unable to make out whether the Moulvi Sahib has changed. The fact is that the Moulvi Sahib and Hadith are the same but it is the &#8220;stone pelter&#8221; and his ways that have changed. Unlike the &#8220;stone pelter&#8221; of today we didn&#8217;t had trendy clothes and sporty shoes, for belonging to the lower income groups we could only afford chapels and plastic shoes. And while our feet had a rot with frostbite we still marched from Lal-Chowk to Charar-e-Shareef. In subzero temperature we spend weeks protesting outside UNMOG amidst torrential rains and snow without caring about what we were wearing, for &#8220;Jazba&#8221; was our best attire. We had heroes of our own, real heroes earning eternal reverence through their sacrifices. One of them I will never forget was a young handsome hero in his twenties, protesting along with us during the first year of militancy. When one of the CRPF personnel started firing into the crowd he went to him grabbed the barrel of the gun with his both hands and put it on his chest and I saw every bullet piercing his body. He was far more athletic than the present &#8220;stone pelters&#8221;. He could have easily evaded the bullets by acting like Rajnikanth but he was destined to rise far, far above these hollow dudes. Such were the &#8220;stone pelters&#8221; when Moulvi Sahib supported them for sacrificing their own lives to protect their people. Will today&#8217;s &#8220;stone pelter&#8221; understand now why Moulvi Sahib changed his mind? It was the job of security forces to destroy vehicles and public property, beat innocent people and cause inconvenience to the people. We only protested aginst those who committed excesses. In 1995 when one of our classmates, Salim Hamid, was martyred in cold blooded murder we didn&#8217;t break windows of passenger buses nor did we damage the shops or prevent patients from reaching the hospital. The sole target of our protests was the bunker at the Bohri Kadal where he was killed. And it was because of this appropriateness of protest aimed at guilty, rather than on innocent people, that no one alleged us to have an income from these actions or that we were doing it for our thrill seeking behavior.


When Hazratbal siege took place we came on roads as protestors and &#8220;stone pelters&#8221; but our protests didn&#8217;t last a week but for continuous three months. And despite three months of protests and stone pelting we still passed our matric examination as position holders. No one could call us illiterate. During these protests there were no teargas shells or rubber bullets but only LMGs and SLRs. We didn&#8217;t have the privilege of having a chief minister like Omar Abdullah who would get Lakhwinder Singh arrested and BSF commandant suspended in two days. We had governor&#8217;s rule wherein security forces would increase their medals tally and promotions for every massacre they committed.


We not only protested but studied in our best capabilities. And we taught others as well so that the stigma of illiteracy could be erased. All this because we REALLY wanted our nation to excel on all fronts. My purpose of passing the examination was not to get a medical seat but to TOP the list just to DEFEAT the Jammuites for we always were taunted for being &#8220;inferior&#8221; to them. And through curfews, bomb blasts, crackdowns we fought academic battles and DEFEATED the more privileged ones.


Unlike todays &#8220;stone pelter&#8221; we didn&#8217;t restrict our protests just to stone pelting or slogan raising but fought legitimately at every front. When &#8220;Dish TV&#8221; and private news channels came to Kashmir our accent and language was made fun of yet we debated with their historians and intellectuals in front of the camera, at fourteen years of age, and made them eat dust so that they never had the guts to telecast it. During the interview we hadn&#8217;t covered our faces to hide our identity but faced them face to face. This is unlike the &#8220;stone pelter&#8221; of today who will not debate even with his own people to decide what actually is the right way to protest? As cartoonists we worked free for online and local newspapers like Kashmir Monitor and used art to highlight the atrocities of Army and Task Force at a time when people would tremble even at the mention of these words. Though 16 years of age we were the only people in our locality well versed with English and it was our duty to collect information about human rights violations and write letters on behalf of affected families to NGOs and Human Rights groups all across the globe.


The &#8220;stone pelter&#8221; of today thinks we dislike him because he prevents our progress. The 7 lakh Indian troops with their crackdowns, curfews and violations along with hostile circumstances could not prevent us from reaching the zenith of our career yet these stone yielding dollies think they can prevent our &#8220;progress&#8221; by disrupting traffic for few hours.* Dear &#8220;stone-pelter&#8221;, like other government employees I could make you as an excuse to stay at home and enjoy Indian movies and cricket matches, and praise you for giving me a much needed holiday. But at great personnel risk I drive my car all the way to hospital amidst your hostility. Am I doing this for progress? What do you think must be the reason for this &#8220;craziness&#8221;? During the first days of Hartals imposed by you, two of our patients died as the Sumo they were traveling in was stopped from reaching hospital. 4 patients went to Jammu, one to Apollo Hospital and one to Gangaram. These are patients who had my phone number and I am sure there must be hundreds like them. Every day we get 3 to 4 patients of Heart Block, 3 to 4 patients of Heart Attack and half a dozen patients of Heart Failure. During the Hartals we didn&#8217;t get any or less than that. Not that no emergencies occurred, but they failed to reach the hospital. And if we take statistics from all specialties no less than 100 patients must have died for not reaching the hospital in time. After all this you call yourself a &#8220;savior&#8221; of this nation and a fighter against killings!!*!


Y*ou are right that neither you can stoop to our level nor can we rise to yours. I dodge your stones to reach the hospital because I know the poor Mauj or Kak unable to bear the cost of treatment must have come for free samples and if don&#8217;t reach the hospital 3 days later they will be lying in the casualty floor with heart failure and pulmonary edema. Your supporters had enough money to sponsor their treatment but why to stoop to our level? Our hospital may be below standard for your supporters who prefer to go to costliest private hospitals in India and abroad but it is the only ray of hope for these oppressed people as well as for the kid on ventilator after being hit by a teargas shell which you evaded like Rajnikanth. So every Hartal I will continue stooping low to reach the hospital and you continue your ascend by pelting stones at us and preventing us to go for &#8220;progress&#8221;. Don&#8217;t you worry that when you are injured and brought to the hospital we won&#8217;t take revenge from you but will treat you just like our brother. No matter how much pain we may have on seeing you wounded in police action we will not leave you to die and go out pelting stones at police-we have stooped too low to do such a brave act.* Instead we cowards will hide day and night in operation threatres and ICUs with an excuse of treating you. My lowly degree may not help in lodging an FIR but is capable enough to save the leg of the injured journalist. And you should have asked him at the time of injury what his priority is &#8211; an FIR to be lodged or his leg saved by removing the bullet?


I will not tell you when and why I changed my options to stoop low and work CONSTRUCTIVELY for my nation- the reasons are there clearly written on the wall but you need a brain that is permeable to rationality to understand that. *While doing internship in GMC we were asked to help the MSF (Doctors without Borders) in interviewing the families affected by militancy, and what did I found out? People who had lost their bread-earners in Jihad were receiving aid from &#8220;Kafir&#8221; organizations like MSF, Red Cross, and even Indian NGOs while completely neglected by their &#8220;own&#8221; people who always talk of Jihad and sacrifices!!! And how can you know of their ordeals for you know nothing but the street and your momma&#8217;s lap. Its only for us &#8220;Non-Stone Pelting cowards&#8221; to stoop low to wipe their tears and help them earn a dignified livelihood and give their orphans meaningful education so that no one will say, &#8220;Jihad destroyed these families&#8221;. There are people who will say such sacrifices are necessary for &#8220;Azadi&#8221; but to be honest I have hardly seen any of these people making any credible sacrifices themselves.*


What makes you think that you drive us to action? Rather whenever we wish to work for our impoverished nation it is you who gets us in-acted through curfews and Hartals.* What makes you think you work for honour of our nation? Come to me and I will show you thousands of people coming for attestation to get BPL cards so that they can get free ration from India. They weren&#8217;t so dishonoured but by taking their livelihood you derogated them to this level, and you talk of honour. In a nutshell &#8220;they answer your inappropriate stoning with their unwanted voting&#8221; If instead of destroying livelihoods you had tilled a piece of land to help them stand on their feet rather than making them dependant on Indian aid I would have touched your feet in respect. But it cannot be because you cannot stoop so low to do anything constructive. It is because of your concept of exaltedness and social service that far from the dawn we had dreamt of we find our nation in more darkness than it ever was*:
Ye Daag Daag Ujaala, Yeh Sabkazida Seher
Woh Intezaar tha Jiska, Yeh Woh Seher to Nahin (Faiz Ahmed Faiz)

_(Dr. Wasim Ahmed is Senior Resident Cardiology, SKIMS. Feedback at wasim_skims@yahoo.com)_

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## EjazR

*news.outlookindia.com | Afghan Heroin Used to Lure Youths for Stone Pelting*

A narcotic dimension to violent street protests in Kashmir valley has come to light with local youths being lured by anti-national elements with Afghan heroin and steroids to take to stone pelting against security forces.

The drug factor behind the current unrest in the state came to the fore during the interrogation of some local youths arrested by the state police, official sources said today.

The sources said the arrested youths confessed to addiction to drugs which was provided to them by a local supplier in return for their participation in stone pelting and violent protests.

After getting this information, Police immediately swooped down on some of the localities but could manage to pick up only one peddler Shezad from Khanyar in the downtown area.

Police claimed that during interrogation Shezad told them he was getting heroin from a resident of Natipora, in the outskirts of the city, which he used to distribute among groups of youths in downtown areas.

Some other steroids and drugs used to be also given to the youth besides cigarettes loaded with charas, a senior police officer claimed.

The downtown area is also home to a large number of people who were terrorists before and now jobless after serving their sentences.

These youths become easily vulnerable to drug abuse encouraged by anti-national elements including separatist organisations, police said.

In one of the raids, police seized hundreds of disposable syringes and vials of heroins, steroids and analgesic injections.

The police has been told by the arrested youths that there was a well-knit network by which drugs found its way to people in various areas in the Kashmir valley.

The drugs were provided free of cost and in return they were asked to indulge in stone pelting on security forces, the sources said.


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## mr42O

EjazR said:


> *news.outlookindia.com | Afghan Heroin Used to Lure Youths for Stone Pelting*
> 
> A narcotic dimension to violent street protests in Kashmir valley has come to light with local youths being lured by anti-national elements with Afghan heroin and steroids to take to stone pelting against security forces.
> 
> The drug factor behind the current unrest in the state came to the fore during the interrogation of some local youths arrested by the state police, official sources said today.
> 
> The sources said the arrested youths confessed to addiction to drugs which was provided to them by a local supplier in return for their participation in stone pelting and violent protests.
> 
> After getting this information, Police immediately swooped down on some of the localities but could manage to pick up only one peddler Shezad from Khanyar in the downtown area.
> 
> Police claimed that during interrogation Shezad told them he was getting heroin from a resident of Natipora, in the outskirts of the city, which he used to distribute among groups of youths in downtown areas.
> 
> Some other steroids and drugs used to be also given to the youth besides cigarettes loaded with charas, a senior police officer claimed.
> 
> The downtown area is also home to a large number of people who were terrorists before and now jobless after serving their sentences.
> 
> These youths become easily vulnerable to drug abuse encouraged by anti-national elements including separatist organisations, police said.
> 
> In one of the raids, police seized hundreds of disposable syringes and vials of heroins, steroids and analgesic injections.
> 
> The police has been told by the arrested youths that there was a well-knit network by which drugs found its way to people in various areas in the Kashmir valley.
> 
> The drugs were provided free of cost and in return they were asked to indulge in stone pelting on security forces, the sources said.



HAHAHAHA IT ONLY HAPPENS IN INDIA.

Yaar tumi tori be s sharm nai ai before telling us this ? Shame on u.

I guess next news will be ISI provided drugs lol


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## Brotherhood

*Massive anti-Indian protests erupt in India-controlled Kashmir - People's Daily Online* July 30, 2010






*Policemen remove stones from a street, used as barricade by protesters during a protest in Srinagar, summer capital of Indian-controlled Kashmir, July 30, 2010. Massive protests erupted in India-controlled Kashmir on Friday after paramilitary soldiers opened fire on a group of anti-Indian protesters wounding one of them, police said. Kashmir valley has witnessed a surge in anti-Indian protests since June 11 after a youth was killed by tear smoke shell, fired by police. (Xinhua Photo/Javed Dar)*





*Kashmiri protesters throw stones at police during a protest in Srinagar, summer capital of India-controlled Kashmir, July 30, 2010. (Xinhua Photo/Javed Dar)*





*Kashmiri protesters throw stones at police during a protest in Srinagar, summer capital of Indian-controlled Kashmir, July 30, 2010. (Xinhua Photo/Javed Dar)*





*Kashmiri protesters throw stones at police during a protest in Srinagar, summer capital of Indian-controlled Kashmir, July 30, 2010. (Xinhua Photo/Javed Dar)*





*Policemen walk on a street after a protset in Srinagar, summer capital of Indian-controlled Kashmir, July 30, 2010. (Xinhua Photo/Javed Dar)*

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Poor Kashmir People enslaved by the brutal use of force .. !!!


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## Patriot

^These are all Pakistani Agents.Damn Pakistan must have super duper defense budget to hire half of Kashmiris as agents.


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## karan.1970

^ True.. thats why rest of the economy is in such tatters..

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## Patriot

But Kashmiris are Indians according to you right so are Indian sell outs?


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## SpArK

Return of the stone pelters!!


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## roach

It's a profession. These kids get paid by the hour for stone-pelting, get transport that takes them around, free lunch etc., it is a livelihood...believe it or not.


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## Brotherhood

*Fresh clashes erupt in India-controlled Kashmir, authorities re-impose curfew - People's Daily Online* 18:37, July 30, 2010 

At least four people were injured, one of them critically injured Friday when police fired tear smoke shells and warning shots to quell an anti-Indian demonstration in India-controlled Kashmir, officials said.

The protest demonstration broke out in Chanpora area of Srinagar city, the summer capital of Indian-controlled Kashmir.

Reports pouring in from the area said a large number of people took to the streets in response to separatist call for a march. The people shouting anti-India and pro-freedom slogans were impeded by a posse of police and India's paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) troopers, thereby triggering a clash.

While police fired tear smoke shells and warning shots, the protesters were seen hurling stone and brick pieces on the contingents of police and paramilitary troopers.

All the injured have been removed to the hospital for treatment; however of them condition of a 22-year-old Mohammed Iqbal Khan is stated to be critical.

Soon after the news about police firing spread in the city, hundreds of people from other localities took to the streets to stage protests.

Meanwhile, authorities fearing spreading of clashes Friday re- imposed curfew in several parts of city.

The strict restrictions were enforced by thousands of policemen and India's paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) personnel deployed along the streets and roads of Srinagar city in full riot gear.

The restrictions also hit Friday afternoon congregational prayers in the grand mosque (Jamia Masjid) of Srinagar city for the fifth consecutive Friday.

The head priest of Jamia Masjid, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has been placed under house arrest. Farooq is also a known moderate separatist leader of the region.

Protests triggered in the region last month after a 17-year-old youth was killed in police action on June 11. The killing was followed by 16 more mostly of teenagers over a month in similar actions.

Source: Xinhua


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## karan.1970

Patriot said:


> But Kashmiris are Indians according to you right so are Indian sell outs?



The ones that you are able to buy... ?? Yes...

How about Pakistanis that you claim are blowing up other Pakistanis on behest of India ?? Are they sell outs??

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## KS

Brotherhood said:


> *Fresh clashes erupt in India-controlled Kashmir, authorities re-impose curfew - People's Daily Online* 18:37, July 30, 2010
> 
> At least four people were injured, one of them critically injured Friday when police fired tear smoke shells and warning shots to quell an anti-Indian demonstration in India-controlled Kashmir, officials said.
> 
> The protest demonstration broke out in Chanpora area of Srinagar city, the summer capital of Indian-controlled Kashmir.
> 
> Reports pouring in from the area said a large number of people took to the streets in response to separatist call for a march. The people shouting anti-India and pro-freedom slogans were impeded by a posse of police and India's paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) troopers, thereby triggering a clash.
> 
> While police fired tear smoke shells and warning shots, the protesters were seen hurling stone and brick pieces on the contingents of police and paramilitary troopers.
> 
> All the injured have been removed to the hospital for treatment; however of them condition of a 22-year-old Mohammed Iqbal Khan is stated to be critical.
> 
> Soon after the news about police firing spread in the city, hundreds of people from other localities took to the streets to stage protests.
> 
> Meanwhile, authorities fearing spreading of clashes Friday re- imposed curfew in several parts of city.
> 
> The strict restrictions were enforced by thousands of policemen and India's paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) personnel deployed along the streets and roads of Srinagar city in full riot gear.
> 
> The restrictions also hit Friday afternoon congregational prayers in the grand mosque (Jamia Masjid) of Srinagar city for the fifth consecutive Friday.
> 
> The head priest of Jamia Masjid, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has been placed under house arrest. Farooq is also a known moderate separatist leader of the region.
> 
> Protests triggered in the region last month after a 17-year-old youth was killed in police action on June 11. The killing was followed by 16 more mostly of teenagers over a month in similar actions.
> 
> Source: Xinhua




*@ Brother hood:*

Brother as u can see we (Indian state) are not able to contain the Kashmiris from protesting against us.

So ,*keeping in mind the burgeoning trade and relative peace between our two countries*, *please suggest some methods that we can employ to repress this people just like ur country did in Tibet and Xinjiang*..

I will be grateful for ur help.

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## Tshering22

Ahh the peaceful lovely stone pelters at it again. I think our CRPF guys must be used to them by now. .


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## somya

Massive looks very well in the picture. These 10-15 guys, one can easily arrange by paying Rs 500.

No sensible Kashmiri would support it. They are confused, but believe me they do not support You.


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## Fireurimagination

The administration still has not figured out, how to effectively deal with this stone throwers, IMO the Jammu and Kashmir government should inact and pass a strong law such as MCOCA in Maharashtra in the assembly, use CCTV camera to record hooligans, arrest a dozen or so and convict them withing 15 days, this will dis-courage this people from taking law in to there hands


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## Fireurimagination

mr42O said:


> HAHAHAHA IT ONLY HAPPENS IN INDIA.
> 
> Yaar tumi tori be s sharm nai ai before telling us this ? Shame on u.
> 
> I guess next news will be ISI provided drugs lol



What did you found funny in the article?


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## JonAsad

The whole article is BS,
Drugs used to lure youth into stone pelting. lol

I think Indian media is high on some Afghani drug, it needs a kick in its back to get into senses.

Again BS


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## DESERT FIGHTER

HORSE SHYT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


All of Kashmir is an addict per indian media and has terrorism in genes by indian hindo babar ram dev...

Gets better n better everyday...


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## somebozo

Well beating the dead horse of ISI infiltration is not working for them so its time to invent a new horse and beat it to death   

I should say is indian intelligence manned by hejars with bangles?? 26/11 they failed to stop bunch of people breaching their maritime boundry in broad daylight now they failed to stop flow of afghan narcotics. To assumed whole of kashmir as herion addict pelting stone is ridiculous on its own.

Now some analysis time..how do you indentify BS?? Here

Here is answer in two step.

1. Google headline
2. if sources are all indian then discared the news and have a laugh

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## Hafizzz

> Indian soldiers fire at protesters in IHK, 3 killed
> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
> 
> * 80 people injured as thousands of protesters clash with police
> 
> SRINAGAR: Paramilitary soldiers fired on thousands of demonstrators in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) on Friday, killing three men and injuring at least 80 others as protests against Indian rule spread across the disputed region.
> 
> Troops fired on protesters chanting pro-independence slogans in Pattan and Sopore towns, both northwest of IHKs capital Srinagar, said a police officer on condition of anonymity, because he was not authorised to speak with media.
> 
> Two people were killed in Sopore and one died in Pattan, the officer and a local doctor said. Angry protesters also attacked several police buildings. At least 80 people were injured in clashes that erupted across the region, with injuries from bullets and teargas shells. At least seven people were in critical condition, police and doctors said. IHK has been under curfew for most of the last six weeks as anti-India street demonstrations and clashes surged.
> 
> Fridays deaths bring the number killed in the recent protests to 20. Earlier this week, local authorities asked two retired judges to investigate the deaths. Earlier on Friday, violence erupted in Srinagar after two men were injured when paramilitary forces opened fire on a group of anti-India protesters.
> 
> The soldiers shot at demonstrators, injuring two young men. agencies



Why are the Western Media turning a blind eye to Indian
army atrocities and massacres in Kashmir ???


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## brahmastra

Hafizzz said:


> Why are the Western Media turning a blind eye to Indian
> army atrocities and massacres in Kashmir ???



because it is internal matter of India.

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## javaman

Hafizzz said:


> Why are the Western Media turning a blind eye to Indian
> army atrocities and massacres in Kashmir ???



western media is looking for osama in pakistan.but unfotunately osama is in india with ali jafar.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

brahmastra said:


> because it is internal matter of India.



Thts wat u think!


javaman said:


> western media is looking for osama in pakistan.but unfotunately osama is in india with ali jafar.



Whose Ali JAFAR?


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## somebozo

brahmastra said:


> because it is internal matter of India.



And so was East Pakistan. 

Attrocities are matter of concern wether Indian, Pakistani, Chinese or Israeli.


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## brahmastra

somebozo said:


> And so was East Pakistan.
> 
> Attrocities are matter of concern wether Indian, Pakistani or Israeli.



you didn't mention chinese....


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## javaman

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Thts wat u think!
> 
> 
> Whose Ali JAFAR?









ullu da patha


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## BATMAN

brahmastra said:


> because it is internal matter of India.


Why than locals are deprived of their local news?


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## somebozo

BATMAN said:


> Why than locals are deprived of their local news?



Because the GoI wants them to have a good grasp of international news.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

JAVA MAN his name is Ali ZAFAR not JAFAR!


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## javaman

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> JAVA MAN his name is Ali ZAFAR not JAFAR!



sorry it was compile time error


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## KS

wen r these Kashmiris going to come to their senses and realise wether they like or not Kashmir is going nowhere and will remain with India.?

So that life loss can be prevented on both sides.

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## BATMAN

^^It is a matter of shame which you are not condeming...

To answer your comment....... problem of Kashmiris is not limited to its integration with india.

It is about mass killings of their ancesstors..... missing children...women and men!

Ever wonder why indian media is not allowed to print such news?


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## ice_man

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> JAVA MAN his name is Ali ZAFAR not JAFAR!



ignore it its an indian problem! 

they can't saay ROOZ say ROOJ 
they can't say PHIR they say FHIR

now they can't say ZAFAR and say Jafar!! 

as for this news let it go media doesn't find this news as spiced up as taliban wearing masks and shouting threats to USA! every channel and media wants TRP ratings to go up!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ice_man said:


> ignore it its an indian problem!
> 
> they can't saay ROOZ say ROOJ
> they can't say PHIR they say FHIR
> 
> now they can't say ZAFAR and say Jafar!!
> 
> as for this news let it go media doesn't find this news as spiced up as taliban wearing masks and shouting threats to USA! every channel and media wants TRP ratings to go up!



Well they can quit using URDU and start using there own HINDI.


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## FreekiN

When are these Indians going to come to their senses and realize whether they like it or not, Kashmir isn't going to be in the hands of India for very long and they can't keep killing innocent people forever under the tag of calling them terrorist? 

So that life loss can be prevented on both sides.


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## sunny001

somebozo said:


> And so was East Pakistan.
> 
> Attrocities are matter of concern wether Indian, Pakistani, Chinese or Israeli.



There aren't 10 million refugees banging your door. Your are not spending a million dollars a day just to feed and shelter them. That's the difference between kashmir and east Pakistan. 

Also we did not kill 3 million people just to satisfy our egoistic thinking that west pakistanis are some how superior to bengali speaking east pakistanis.

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## somebozo

Karthic Sri said:


> wen r these Kashmiris going to come to their senses and realise wether they like or not Kashmir is going nowhere and will remain with India.?
> 
> So that life loss can be prevented on both sides.



The same was true about parts of Punjab and Sindh until 1947. The Kashmiris will have their independence one day for sure..Inshallah. 

If Indians have soo much sympathy, they should and can stop the life loss ASAP. Its all in their hands.


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## sunny001

FreekiN said:


> When are these Indians going to come to their senses and realize whether they like it or not, Kashmir isn't going to be in the hands of India for very long and they can't keep killing innocent people forever under the tag of calling them terrorist?
> 
> So that life loss can be prevented on both sides.



I doubt India is going to give away Kashmir just that easily. Any government that takes such a decision could say good bye to power for at least 2 decades. That's how much sentiment put into this by indian janta. 

It would have been easier if there weren't terrorist attacks in India from Pakistan. Because of these attacks, Public are so enraged, they are willing to look away from human rights violations that are happening in Kashmir.

I don't think any country, even US, could coerce India into settling Kashmir. It'll take its own time in deciding the matter. 

In 10 years, Indian economy would be so big that Kashmiris would rather stay with India than become independent and lead destitute lives. They are not fighting to join Pakistan. They are fighting for independence. I don't think either Pakistan or India would allow that to happen. Status quo would prevail for uncertain period of time until Kashmiris realise they are going no where with this. 

But, mean while, I strongly recommend army to move out of towns to border areas for time being. They can't afford the bad publicity they are getting these days.

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## Hulk

FreekiN said:


> *When are these Indians going to come to their senses and realize whether they like it or not, Kashmir isn't going to be in the hands of India* for very long and they can't keep killing innocent people forever under the tag of calling them terrorist?
> 
> So that life loss can be prevented on both sides.



About bold part, we are never going to realize that, it is Pakistan who has to realize that it is not 1971 and they cannot do to India what India did to them period.

The reason why we think that Kashmir's problem is created rather then internal can be understood if you try to answer the following questions honestly.

1) Why till 1989 there was no problem in Kashmir, when they never wanted to be with India? This is very important question, till 1989 there was no talk of mass grave, I went to Kashmir 15 times before that, not a single world against India. We are not fools to fall in traps. Local are instigated using hired stone pelter's and politicians.
2) Why in 1999 when the so called Kashmiri waiting for freedom, came out in support fro Pakistani's? As they do today? People waiting for freedom for 50 years, that day should have been very big for them right?
3) Why the problem is mostly starting only from either Sopor or Srinagar?
4) If all Kashmiri wants to stay with Pakistan who is current chief minister of J&K and what is his views?
5) What are MP's from J&K are doing in Indian Parliament?
6) What was Sekh Abdulla's stand on Kashmir?

There are a whole bunch of Kashmir's which are pro India and whole bunch who are pro independence, some people may have high ambition of becoming a prime minister (e.g. Geelani). And there are some who might want to be part of Pakistan too. The division is fractured and not in favor of anyone and this can change if there is a long period of calm, as happened in Punjab India. In for USA there was lot internal war before they got united. We are ready to wait and time is running out for others, this is last resort that is going on now. People will be very soon frustrated.

Jai Hind.


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## sunny001

BATMAN said:


> Why than locals are deprived of their local news?



Because its a internal matter of India. If anyone should ask that question, it should be indians not you.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

sunny001 said:


> Because its a internal matter of India. If anyone should ask that question, it should be indians not you.



Thts wat indians think a common delussion... its DISPUTED ASK UN,OIC,EU or anyother.

Just violating human rights n killing people wont solve any issue.
But ur welcome to continue living in ur wet dreams


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## ice_man

sunny001 said:


> I doubt India is going to give away Kashmir just that easily. Any government that takes such a decision could say good bye to power for at least 2 decades. That's how much sentiment put into this by indian janta.
> 
> It would have been easier if there weren't terrorist attacks in India from Pakistan. Because of these attacks, Public are so enraged, they are willing to look away from human rights violations that are happening in Kashmir.
> 
> I don't think any country, even US, could coarse India into settling Kashmir. It'll take its own time in deciding the matter.
> 
> In 10 years, Indian economy would be so big that Kashmiris would rather stay with India than become independent and lead destitute lives. They are not fighting to join Pakistan. They are fighting for independence. I don't think either Pakistan or India would allow that to happen.



this is exactly what the ISRAELIS thought they for 5 decades kept making sure their external threats are destroyed to a level that egypt and jordan became friends! the syrians became only a loud sounding war cry! 

and then the resistance of the PALESTANIANS rose suicide bombings in israel! today israel has tried for more than a decade to crush the resistance of the local Palestinians and got no where! now its your turn to follow the israeli foot steps! your economy will be bleed watch and see! india can never get to a super power status but keep dreaming a "HAPPY EVER AFTER" bollywood style


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## sunny001

somebozo said:


> The same was true about parts of Punjab and Sindh until 1947. The Kashmiris will have their independence one day for sure..Inshallah.
> 
> If Indians have soo much sympathy, they should and can stop the life loss ASAP. Its all in their hands.



How? Give it independence or rather give to Pakistan. Not going to happen. In 10 years there won't be kashmir issue anymore. India would be too big a economy for pakistan to wage a war against it.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

sunny001 said:


> How? Give it independence or rather give to Pakistan. Not going to happen. In 10 years there won't be kashmir issue anymore. India would be too big a economy for pakistan to wage a war against it.



Ur already a bigger economy and 4 times large country with like 85% more population and the issue is still there?Going strong and will Inshallah be solved in near future....
U have 2 options:
A)Give kashmiris their right to chose.
B)Kill all of them.


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## BATMAN

sunny001 said:


> Because its a internal matter of India. If anyone should ask that question, it should be indians not you.



This is Pakistan defence forum.... only Pakistanis should be socializing here NOT you!


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## sunny001

ice_man said:


> this is exactly what the ISRAELIS thought they for 5 decades kept making sure their external threats are destroyed to a level that egypt and jordan became friends! the syrians became only a loud sounding war cry!
> 
> and then the resistance of the PALESTANIANS rose suicide bombings in israel! today israel has tried for more than a decade to crush the resistance of the local Palestinians and got no where! now its your turn to follow the israeli foot steps! your economy will be bleed watch and see! india can never get to a super power status but keep dreaming a "HAPPY EVER AFTER" bollywood style



But Palestanians that are in Gaza are not isralies. Kashmiris in India are Indians. They've all the provisions that Indian state provides to its citizens. India doesn't have to get a super power status, in 10 years even if economy doubles, while it is expected to quadraple, it would be impossible for pakistan to wage a war. It would go backrupt in a week. Even now, I don't think any country can persuade India into settling kashmir. India is not Israel but for such small country it is handling its business extremely well. India is a vast country, it could continue with its business, even if a certain section of its society is struggling.

Also, it is not as if Kashmiris are entering into an alien culture. There are more muslims in India than in Pakistan. So that shouldn't be a problem.


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## sunny001

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Thts wat indians think a common delussion... its DISPUTED ASK UN,OIC,EU or anyother.
> 
> Just violating human rights n killing people wont solve any issue.
> But ur welcome to continue living in ur wet dreams



I could care less if Kashmir goes to Pakistan or becomes Independent. I am just stating obvious feelings from India. Don't blame me for pointing it out.


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## sunny001

BATMAN said:


> This is Pakistan defence forum.... only Pakistanis should be socializing here NOT you!



Good response. real mature. I replied to a question why indians are not taking action against human right issues which was given as answer to 'it's indias internal matter' comment by an Indian.

So, I assumed he resented to the fact that it is really india's internal issue.


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## Patriot

Well folks i see it in different way - India is only helping us by doing these things.


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## sunny001

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Ur already a bigger economy and 4 times large country with like 85&#37; more population and the issue is still there?Going strong and will Inshallah be solved in near future....
> U have 2 options:
> A)Give kashmiris their right to chose.
> B)Kill all of them.



Who kills people these days unless necessary. It is not 1971, where one army can kill 3 million people and get away with it. Kashmiris will pelt stones for 10 days, may be a month, after that they'll get on with their lives. All india has to do is put some money into economy, provide some jobs, issue solved. It's only those unemployed that resent against the government. Social uplifting will eliminate all the unrest. India has muscle to do that.


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## Hulk

While discussing Kashmir, I pose same questions in 5 threads so far no Pakistani has ever replied. Which means they do not have any answer.


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## somebozo

> In 10 years, Indian economy would be so big that Kashmiris would rather stay with India than become independent and lead destitute lives. They are not fighting to join Pakistan. They are fighting for independence. I don't think either Pakistan or India would allow that to happen. Status quo would prevail for uncertain period of time until Kashmiris realise they are going no where with this.





sunny001 said:


> But Palestanians that are in Gaza are not isralies. Kashmiris in India are Indians. They've all the provisions that Indian state provides to its citizens. India doesn't have to get a super power status, in 10 years even if economy doubles, while it is expected to quadraple, it would be impossible for pakistan to wage a war. It would go backrupt in a week. Even now, I don't think any country can persuade India into settling kashmir. India is not Israel but for such small country it is handling its business extremely well. India is a vast country, it could continue with its business, even if a certain section of its society is struggling.



Wait till the west economic stagnation continues and their industrial cost comes down to same level of India. Then the Indian growth will follow reverse gear as Made in USA will cost same as Made in India and people obviously trust the US quality. Therefore India will be left to seek markets in much improvished Africa and other poor countries. The Chinese already sense this and on fast track to shift their economic focus away from west. They are rapidly investing in overseas infrastructure to market their goods and services. 

The kashmiris are as much Indians as Gazans are israeli. Both boast their claim to sovergien land and enforce their citizenship on people.

It too early to presume anyone economy. Every rise has a fall and FDI always tend to favour small efficient countries with less red tape. Worst case scenerio has to be kept in mind always. Even the mighty USA today is suffering from economic crisis so saying India is immune is far fetched reality. One should question what will be the opinion of kashmiris on the face of stagnating Indian economic growth and that of Indian union as a whole?

India should take advantage of its good releations with west and rapidly build a base of high tech products and services because they are the future, outsourcing is not!


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## sunny001

somebozo said:


> Wait till the west economic stagnation continues and their industrial cost comes down to same level of India. Then the Indian growth will follow reverse gear as Made in USA will cost same as Made in India and people obviously trust the US quality. Therefore India will be left to seek markets in much improvished Africa and other poor countries. The Chinese already sense this and on fast track to shift their economic focus away from west. They are rapidly investing in overseas infrastructure to market their goods and services.
> 
> India should take advantage of its good releations with west and rapidly build a base of high tech products and services because they are the future, outsourcing is not!



India is not export driven. It is not like china. India is a service based economy. Every multinational MNC in the world, has their R&D facilities in India. For salaries in India to get to the same level as US, India would be at least 5 times richer than US. So I would definitely worry in such a case if I were a Pakistani. But I guess it will take at least 100 years to get there, so we are in no hurry. If kashmir issue still exists then we will see.

I feel bad for kashmiris, for they are suffering because of both our countries egos.


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## FreekiN

indianrabbit said:


> About bold part, we are never going to realize that, it is Pakistan who has to realize that it is not 1971 and they cannot do to India what India did to them period.



That's great, because I wasn't talking about Pakistan taking it by force. Kashmiri's will do everything themselves.



> 1) Why till 1989 there was no problem in Kashmir, when they never wanted to be with India? This is very important question, till 1989 there was no talk of mass grave, I went to Kashmir 15 times before that, not a single world against India. We are not fools to fall in traps. Local are instigated using hired stone pelter's and politicians.



There was always a problem in IoK, do you think in 1989 mass media was such available as it is today? India continues to throttle and hush up any incidents of killings, discoveries, mass graves, etc. "Hired stone pelters?" LOL, you make our conspiracy theorists sound genius.



> 2) Why in 1999 when the so called Kashmiri waiting for freedom, came out in support fro Pakistani's? As they do today? People waiting for freedom for 50 years, that day should have been very big for them right?



No, they didn't. Kashmir is pro-Independence. Pakistan is ok with that, India isn't. After the pro-Independence majority comes the Pro-Pakistan minority and then pro-india etc. That's why India releases movies like "Fanaa" to propogate the anti-Independence sentiment.



> 3) Why the problem is mostly starting only from either Sopor or Srinagar?



Every mountain isn't inhabited.



> 4) If all Kashmiri wants to stay with Pakistan who is current chief minister of J&K and what is his views?



First of all, get this "all Kashmiri's want to stay with Pakistan" theory out of your head. Most Kashmiri's are PRO-INDEPENDENCE. Second, J&K Minister is not an average civilian now is he?


> 5) What are MP's from J&K are doing in Indian Parliament?



We can say the same thing for Azad Kashmir. Again, you think that we think that there is no pro-India minority. But fact remains, they are a minority.



> There are a whole bunch of Kashmir's which are pro India and whole bunch who are pro independence, some people may have high ambition of becoming a prime minister (e.g. Geelani). And there are some who might want to be part of Pakistan too.



There we go, heres the issue. You think that we think that all Kashmiris want to join Pakistan and we think that you're insane. We know that most of Kashmirs public opinion is pro-Independence, and then pro-Pakistan and then the leftovers are pro-India and whatnot. The fact is that the pro-India part's segment of public opinion comes no where near the majorities that hold of their own stance of receding India.


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## ice_man

indianrabbit said:


> While discussing Kashmir, I pose same questions in 5 threads so far no Pakistani has ever replied. Which means they do not have any answer.



what question might that be??

and in 71 let's not even go there shall we when india invaded east pakistan!!! you invaded a sovereign country my friend kashmir and east pakistan cannot be compared!! 

infact you should be tried as a nation for trespassing a sovereign country!


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## sunny001

ice_man said:


> what question might that be??
> 
> and in 71 let's not even go there shall we when india invaded east pakistan!!! you invaded a sovereign country my friend kashmir and east pakistan cannot be compared!!
> 
> infact you should be tried as a nation for trespassing a sovereign country!



But 10 million of that sovereign country's citizens trespassed into our country. We were spending a million dollars a day to provide food and shelter to them, all the while you keep killing and raping people in scores. When even International community refused to support those camps, what do you expect our sovereign country to do?


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## Raghu

> Indian Soldiers kill protesters in Indian Kashmir



One Big correction :They died in *POLICE Firing* ,thats the kashmir state police ,not by Indian soldiers.

Indian soldiers don't engage with stone pelting protesters, rahter they deal with insurgents carrying AK47s infiltrated from across the border Pakistan held Kashmir.


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## javaman

another india vs pak thread...........


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

javaman said:


> another india vs pak thread...........



If enough Indians told their government to stop ruthlessly suppressing Kashmiri sentiments of freedom and independence, I assure you there would also be a reduction of VS threads.


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## javaman

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> If enough Indians told their government to stop ruthlessly suppressing Kashmiri sentiments of freedom and independence, I assure you there would also be a reduction of VS threads.



if u ppl would have learned frm past mistakes.that would have been more better


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## Areesh

javaman said:


> if u ppl would have learned frm past mistakes.that would have been more better



We have learned from our mistakes and won't resort to anything such as friendship peace or harmony with India in the future.

No more Aman ki asha or tamasha like junk from now on.


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

javaman said:


> if u ppl would have learned frm past mistakes.that would have been more better



Past mistake was to allow a foreign occupier footloose in Kashmir.


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> ^ True.. thats why rest of the economy is in such tatters..



Garbage... OH just realized you are an Indian you live with garbage so you post one also.

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## javaman

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> Past mistake was to allow a foreign occupier footloose in Kashmir.



still mistaking.


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

javaman said:


> still mistaking.



So you acknowledge that your Army is a foreign occupier of Kashmir?? Good now the peace process can start.


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## javaman

MASSIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

looking like cricket team coming after defeat


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## javaman

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> So you acknowledge that your Army is a foreign occupier of Kashmir?? Good now the peace process can start.


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## Patriot

karan.1970 said:


> The ones that you are able to buy... ?? Yes...
> 
> How about Pakistanis that you claim are blowing up other Pakistanis on behest of India ?? Are they sell outs??


Yes, Absolutely and there is religious factor in the sense that they're brainwashed but Kashmiris are secular..?


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## sunny001

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> If enough Indians told their government to stop ruthlessly suppressing Kashmiri sentiments of freedom and independence, I assure you there would also be a reduction of VS threads.



That's just it. It's not political parties fault. They are just doing it because of fear of not getting elected next time around if anything changes. 

If only terrorist attacks from Pakistan subsides for at least 5 years, then tempers will calm down, people will be more open to a solution. Which is why, it is important for LET to not operate anti india operations for the sake of kashmiris.


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## Patriot

Well I have a feeling few Indian soldiers will depart the world for good in the upcoming days.RIP in advance.


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## javaman

Patriot said:


> Well I have a feeling few Indian soldiers will depart the world for good in the upcoming days.RIP in advance.



dream is right of evry person.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Patriot said:


> Well I have a feeling few Indian soldiers will depart the world for good in the upcoming days.RIP in advance.



And I have feeling *a lot of **Pak sponsored and/or based terrorisrts*..will depart this world and join their virgins.


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> And I have feeling *a lot of **Pak sponsored and/or based terrorisrts*..will depart this world and join their virgins.



Mind your language here kid. There are adults here. Baray lohg baht karyhein, have some respect.

---------- Post added at 07:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:50 PM ----------




Patriot said:


> Well I have a feeling few Indian soldiers will depart the world for good in the upcoming days.RIP in advance.



Yaar such comments will instigate them further.


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## sunny001

somebozo said:


> Wait till the west economic stagnation continues and their industrial cost comes down to same level of India. Then the Indian growth will follow reverse gear as Made in USA will cost same as Made in India and people obviously trust the US quality. Therefore India will be left to seek markets in much improvished Africa and other poor countries. The Chinese already sense this and on fast track to shift their economic focus away from west. They are rapidly investing in overseas infrastructure to market their goods and services.
> 
> The kashmiris are as much Indians as Gazans are israeli. Both boast their claim to sovergien land and enforce their citizenship on people.
> 
> *It too early to presume anyone economy. Every rise has a fall and FDI always tend to favour small efficient countries with less red tape. Worst case scenerio has to be kept in mind always. Even the mighty USA today is suffering from economic crisis so saying India is immune is far fetched reality. One should question what will be the opinion of kashmiris on the face of stagnating Indian economic growth and that of Indian union as a whole?*
> 
> India should take advantage of its good releations with west and rapidly build a base of high tech products and services because they are the future, outsourcing is not!



Globalization is an irreversible phenomenon. We are developing based on internal consumption not from exports. India is expected to become third largest economy by 2030. It was envisaged by many a financial institutions, which is why they are investing heavily on India. So I don't see why India wouldn't develop. 

It seems like a wishful thinking that India would stagnate somehow so Pakistan could get some levy time to stir up kashmir. While you are struggling with war on terror, India is moving ahead with many reforms. By 2015, India's nominal GDP would be more than 2 trillion dollars and in PPP close to $7 trillion. So, Pakistan should persuade US to settle kashmir issue while they are here. For when they leave, Pakistan won't be able to convince world to take up their cause.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> Mind your language here kid. There are adults here. Baray lohg baht karyhein, have some respect.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:50 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Yaar such comments will instigate them further.



*dude talk sense...if "adults"..don't have the basic courtesy to respect another country's soldiers ..and want to flame ..then thats the kind of reply they are longing for...by the way...how old are you?? ..calling me a kid..it seems!!*


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> *dude talk sense...if "adults"..don't have the courtesy to respect another country's soldiers ..and want to flame ..then thats the kind of reply they looking for...by the way...how old are you ..calling me a kid..it seems??*



You are a kid for talking mess like that. How can a self respecting man talk like that about someone's religion, and disrespecting someone's soldiers in a place he is sitting as a guest. You don't belong on a military forum.


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## sunny001

Patriot said:


> Well I have a feeling few Indian soldiers will depart the world for good in the upcoming days.RIP in advance.



While at the same time many a jihadis and many more innocent kashmiris will die for no fault of theirs. Would you want that to happen?


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> You are a kid for talking mess like that. How can a self respecting man talk like that about someone's religion, and disrespecting someone's soldiers in a place he is sitting as a guest. You don't belong on a military forum.



Don't preach BS...*what religion I am messing with hunh??... which..infact who's soldiers I disrespected...is it crime now to call a terrorist a terrorist??*


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> Don't preach BS...*what religion I am messing with hunh??... which..infact who's soldiers I disrespected...is it crime now to call a terrorist a terrorist??*



You are painting this Kashmir problem with the same paintbrush that has been dipped in BS from your government. No one is terrorizing you from based in Pakistan. Your Kashmir mess is a domestic insurgency being sponsored by ruthless Indian policies of suppressing freedom and democracy. Because we happen to morally side with Kashmiris and our military stands on guard, nobody is fighting in Kashmir to die for virgins. Take your vitriol somewhere else please it will do you no good here I can assure you.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> You are painting this Kashmir problem with the same paintbrush that has been dipped in BS from your government. No one is terrorizing you from based in Pakistan. Your Kashmir mess is a domestic insurgency being sponsored by ruthless Indian policies of suppressing freedom and democracy.



*Either you are oblivious to a certain facts or rather ignorant to them all .*


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## Hulk

Still no reponse to my questions. So the fanboys only interested in trash talks and continue to believe whatever they wish devoid of substence.


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## BATMAN

^^ like training centers for stone throwing children???


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## KS

BATMAN said:


> ^^It is a matter of shame which you are not condeming...
> To answer your comment....... problem of Kashmiris is not limited to its integration with india.



Wat there in this to be ashamed..?I saidd this in the best interests of the Kashmiris w/o compromising my countries interest.



BATMAN said:


> It is about mass killings of their ancesstors..... missing children...women and men!
> Ever wonder why indian media is not allowed to print such news?



Mass killing..? Go read abt this bigot Sikandar_Butshikan



somebozo said:


> The same was true about parts of Punjab and Sindh until 1947. The Kashmiris will have their independence one day for sure..Inshallah.
> 
> If Indians have soo much sympathy, they should and can stop the life loss ASAP. Its all in their hands.



We have 1.2 billion on our side..and Kashmiris 2 or 3 million..go do the math as to who benefits wen the killing stops.

We have the men,money,weapons,diplomatic clout to prevent any change in the South Asia map.


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## Frankenstein

brahmastra said:


> because it is internal matter of India.



Human rights violation is not an internal Matter of India and neither is terrorism


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## GUNNER

SRINAGAR, India, July 31, 2010 (AFP) - Two more protesters were killed Saturday in Indian Kashmir, bringing to six the number of young men shot dead by security forces in two days as fresh protests against Indian rule shook the region.

The latest casualties marked the deadliest 48 hours in the Muslim-majority Himalayan territory since June 11, when the turmoil first erupted after a 17-year-old student demonstrator was killed by a police tear-gas shell.

So far, Indian security forces have been accused of killing 23 Kashmiri civilians -- many of them in their teens or 20s -- in less than two months.

The latest casualty, a 30-year-old man, was killed when security forces opened fire at rock-throwing protesters in the northern town of Baramulla, a police officer said, asking not to be named.

Earlier in the day, a young man was killed in neighbouring Naidkhai village when "security forces opened fire as a group of protesters tried to attack a police camp," he said.

The deaths brought to six the number of people killed in clashes with security forces since Friday in Baramulla district, known as a hotbed of separatist sentiment.

"We condemn this brutal use of force against peaceful protesters," senior separatist leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, who is under house arrest in Indian Kashmir's summer capital Srinagar, told AFP.

He appealed for the "international community, the United Nations in particular, to step in to save my people who are being persecuted for demanding freedom from India."

Farooq, who has held several rounds of talks with India in the past on the region's future, ruled out further negotiations until New Delhi pulls out troops, frees political prisoners and repeals tough security laws.

He said the ongoing protests were "spontaneous and indigenous" and in reaction to presence of "tens of thousands of Indian troops in Kashmir."

The latest round of police shooting happened in northern Kashmir as authorities struggled to subdue protesters defying a strict curfew that was imposed on all major towns in the Kashmir valley on Saturday.

In Sopore, protesters set fire to a railway station, smashing windows and breaking furniture, and hurling stones, another police officer said.

Security forces fired shots to disperse the protesters, injuring four people, the officer said, asking not to be named.
In neighbouring Kreeri town, demonstrators torched a counter-insurgency police camp and threw stones at a security patrol, prompting forces to fire in self-defence, injuring two women and one man, he said.

"The condition of one injured woman is critical," the officer told AFP.

In Pampore, demonstrators set fire to two Indian Air Force vehicles but police fired tear gas and warning shots and were able to rescue the occupants, police said.

In some parts of Srinagar, protesters and riot police clashed, police said.
Police and paramilitary forces were deployed in strength in large towns in a bid to keep a lid on demonstrations.

Police said 28 policemen and 32 protestors were injured during day-long clashes, most of the protestors after being shot and wounded by security forces.


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## bc040400065

*Kashmir situation grim, death toll in forces' firing reaches six*

Peerzada Ashiq, Hindustan Times

Srinagar, July 31, 2010


Two protesters were killed and scores received bullet injuries when security forces resorted to firing and shelling tear gas at eight places in north and south Kashmir on Saturday to disperse protesters raising anti-India and pro-freedom slogans. With the death of two youth, the toll has risen to six since Friday and to 23 since June 11, when the killing of a boy sparked off a string of protests across Kashmir.

After Friday's killings, even a curfew and the security restrictions imposed across Kashmir by the authorities failed to keep angry protesters inside.

*Anti-India and pro-freedom demonstrations were held in newer areas on Saturday with police sources admitting to Hindustan Times "that the situation was grim and out of control at many places".*
A youth, Mudassir Ahmad, received a bullet in the chest when security forces retaliated to a mob attacking a forces' camp at Naidkhah in Bandipora district, 17 km north-east of Srinagar. Eight protesters were injured in the firing. One critically injured was shifted to a Srinagar hospital.

*"Ahmad was brought dead to the hospital and received a bullet in his chest," said a medical official at the Sumbal hospital.*

"An unruly mob attacked a police camp causing injuries to a number of policemen including SP Bandipora, who suffered head injury," said a policespokesman.

*Another boy, identified as Javeed Ahmad Teli, was killed in Baramulla district, 65 km north of Srinagar, when a firearm hit him in the head during protesters-security forces' clashes.*

Tension gripped north Kashmir's Kreeri area again on Saturday after two youth died on Friday.

*Security forces fired at protesters who took to the streets and marched towards the national highway to protest the killings, defying curfew in the area.*

Thirteen protesters, including two women were injured. Two critically injured, Gulshana Jan and Hanifa Jan, were admitted to a Srinagar hospital.

"We received 20 injured persons mostly with bullet wounds," said Kreeri block medical officer Dr Khursheed Ahmad.

The police spokesman said "violent mobs attacked old Police Station and Horticulture buildings, setting them on fire at Kreeri.

"The mob also assaulted a security force Jawan and attempted to snatch his weapon," he added.

Another youth, Tariq Ahmad (17), was critically injured in south Kashmir's Bijbehara area, 65 south of Srinagar. Ahmad was hit by a tear-gas shell aimed to quell a massive protest in the area. One youth in Baramulla, 65 km north of Srinagar, too was brought to Srinagar hospital after a bullet hit him in the head during clashes. 

Protesters on Saturday attacked many symbols of state authorities.

A railway station was damaged in north Kashmir's Sopore; two Indian Air Force vehicles in south Kashmir's Pampore area; national highway was blocked with logs near Sangam and felling of trees, police stations attacked at Pampore and Baramulla and a power transmission house was attacked at Wathoora in central Kashmir. 

Security forces fired at Pampore, Awantipora, Bijbehara and Tral in south Kashmir and at Sopore, Pattan and Baramulla in north Kashmir to bring spiraling situation under control. 

Dozens received bullet injuries in the firing and many critical have been shifted to Srinagar hospitals. In Tral, one boy, Irfan Ahmad Wani, went missing on during Friday protests fuelling more demonstrations today. 

"In order to restrain these unruly crowds from causing further damage to the life and property, the police had to fire at different places. Two people were killed in the firing," said the police spokesman in a statement. 

The police claimed "a lawless crowd attacked a posse of policemen injuring several other policemen at south Kashmir's Kakpora-Samboora area.

"A petrol bomb was also thrown at a police vehicle at Samboora, which was gutted completely," said the spokesman. 

The police claimed more than half a dozen police officer and several dozen personnel were injured in protests across the valley.

At the time of filing this report, protests were on at several places. The government has declared indefinite curfew in Kashmir in wake of worsening situation.

"The general public and law abiding citizens are advised to respect curfew restrictions and prevent small minorities in breaking the law," said the official statement.



Two youths killed in police firing in Kashmir, toll now six - Hindustan Times


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

Protesters have the right to shoot back in this case, end of story.


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## Dance

God give Kashmiris strength against indian occupation and tyranny.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

sunny001 said:


> Who kills people these days unless necessary. It is not 1971, *where one army can kill 3 million people and get away with it. Kashmiris will pelt stones for 10 days, may be a month, after that they'll get on with their lives. All india has to do is put some money into economy, provide some jobs, issue solved*. It's only those unemployed that resent against the government. Social uplifting will eliminate all the unrest. India has muscle to do that.



Did u pull the 3 million figure out of ur ,,,?
And u created mukti bhani long before 71!
And the 10 days or a month B.S has been going on since more then 6 DEACADES..

U cant eliminate them to finish their FREEDOM struggle.
God Bless KASHMIRI and give them FREEDOM.


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## sunny001

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Did u pull the 3 million figure out of ur ,,,?
> And u created mukti bhani long before 71!
> And the 10 days or a month B.S has been going on since more then 6 DEACADES..
> 
> U cant eliminate them to finish their FREEDOM struggle.
> God Bless KASHMIRI and give them FREEDOM.



Like you have been supporting LET jihadi freedom fighters for kashmir right? What was your response to that, mass genocide and raping of innocent east pakistanis. At least India is acting responsible in its counter measure. Please you are in no position to dictate to india. First go control your balochistan.

STATISTICS OF PAKISTAN'S DEMOCIDE, that's a good read. It'll tell you how many were killed and how many were raped.

But for past 6 decades India wasn't stronger economically as it is now. But even if it is not, what are you gonna do about it?


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## DesiGuy

Frankenstein said:


> Human rights violation is not an internal Matter of India and neither is terrorism





Could have tell same to chines, during tibet riots and xinjiang riots.


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## karan.1970

ice_man said:


> this is exactly what the ISRAELIS thought they for 5 decades kept making sure their external threats are destroyed to a level that egypt and jordan became friends! the syrians became only a loud sounding war cry!
> 
> and then the resistance of the PALESTANIANS rose suicide bombings in israel! today israel has tried for more than a decade to crush the resistance of the local Palestinians and got no where! now its your turn to follow the israeli foot steps! your economy will be bleed watch and see! india can never get to a super power status but keep dreaming a "HAPPY EVER AFTER" bollywood style



You are forgetting a basic difference. there is no religious conflict between people of J&K and rest of India


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## karan.1970

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Ur already a bigger economy and 4 times large country with like 85% more population and the issue is still there?Going strong and will Inshallah be solved in near future....
> U have 2 options:
> A)Give kashmiris their right to chose.
> B)Kill all of them.



Much easier to make the cost for formenting insurgency very high for Pakistan. We would rather continue doing that. Its a war of attrition and India has a much larger base..

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## karan.1970

BATMAN said:


> This is Pakistan defence forum.... only Pakistanis should be socializing here NOT you!



Hi Batman.. Looks like a bug in the Forum software. Your super moderator status is not reflecting in your posts...


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## Tshering22

BATMAN said:


> ^^It is a matter of shame which you are not condeming...
> 
> To answer your comment....... problem of Kashmiris is not limited to its integration with india.
> 
> It is about mass killings of their ancesstors..... missing children...women and men!
> 
> Ever wonder why indian media is not allowed to print such news?


If we had indeed pressed for complete censorship, not even a bug's death would be known outside Kashmir. Don't blow stuff out of proportion just to satisfy your ego. You don't want to admit Kashmir as our state, fine. But you cannot do anything more than claim disputes here and there and that's a fact.

Rather than wasting your breath for so many decades on "Kashmiri" issue if you had considered economic cooperation, things could have been better. Rather I'd say our government gives way too much attention to this dead topic by asking or inviting talks. It is either general peace or trade but not Kashmir. 

Like it or hate it, Kashmir stays ours. Those sponsored stone pelters got what they deserve. And if they plan to get any more violent, we're no unarmed saints sitting here either. If PLA was in our place, all these "stone pelters" would have been history a decade back.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

sunny001 said:


> *Like you have been supporting LET jihadi freedom fighters for kashmir right*? *What was your response to that, mass genocide and raping of innocent east pakistanis. At least India is acting responsible in its counter measure. Please you are in no position to dictate to india. First go control your balochistan.*
> *STATISTICS OF PAKISTAN'S DEMOCIDE, that's a good read. It'll tell you how many were killed and how many were raped.*
> 
> But for past 6 decades India wasn't stronger economically as it is now. But even if it is not, *what are you gonna do about it*?



Proof gop ever supported let?
Its been 150000 dead and 6 decades...
The web site u gave is just B.S even the bengladeshis on PDF call the 3 million number BULLSHYT!
No army kills innocent people of its own country. 
Mukti bhani was created before 71 and thts a fact u always supported taliban..
Wat responsibly?blowin golden temple?killing 150000 kashmiris and raping women since 47?

Violating all human rights?

Balouchistan>None of ur bloody buisness
Is tht even disputed or r u just havin something of a wet dreams cum hallucinations?
Come to my province and i a proud PAKISTANI OF BALOUCH ETHNICITY will fix ur damn disease very well.

Wat we will do is none of ur problem,time will tell,just like sidelining india in afghanistan!

GOD BLESS PAKISTAN AND FREEDOM FOR KASHMIRIS.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

karan.1970 said:


> Much easier to make the cost for formenting insurgency very high for Pakistan. We would rather continue doing that. Its a war of attrition and India has a much larger base..



Dont try to act like british raj!!
Coz occupation has never remained and FREEDOM MOVEMENTS and blood of nations have never gone in vain.

History repeats itself.


----------



## sunny001

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Proof gop ever supported let?
> Its been 150000 dead and 6 decades...
> The web site u gave is just B.S even the bengladeshis on PDF call the 3 million number BULLSHYT!
> No army kills innocent people of its own country.
> Mukti bhani was created before 71 and thts a fact u always supported taliban..
> Wat responsibly?blowin golden temple?killing 150000 kashmiris and raping women since 47?
> 
> Violating all human rights?
> 
> Balouchistan>None of ur bloody buisness
> Is tht even disputed or r u just havin something of a wet dreams cum hallucinations?
> Come to my province and i a proud PAKISTANI OF BALOUCH ETHNICITY will fix ur damn disease very well.
> 
> Wat we will do is none of ur problem,time will tell,just like sidelining india in afghanistan!
> 
> GOD BLESS PAKISTAN AND FREEDOM FOR KASHMIRIS.



Dream on Kid. There's no point replying to your rant. You'll come up with another stupid argument. It's been 60 years, what is it Pakistan able to do to India? We still have Kashmir and we even got siachen.

Well sure time will tell, may be in 10 years there won't kashmir issue at all. see you there.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

sunny001 said:


> *Dream on Kid.* There's no point replying to your rant. You'll come up with another stupid argument. It's been 60 years, what is it Pakistan able to do to India? We still have Kashmir and we even got siachen.
> 
> Well sure time will tell, may be in 10 years there won't kashmir issue at all. see you there.



Live in ur dellusional wet dreams n pools paradise MAMOO.
Also how do u know im a kid?i might have my own kids like urself>? so stop getting personal like a mentally retarded person.

U cant answer anythin then it becomes a rant?wow SO PATHETIC.
Remember 47?when nehru ran to UN begging for a ceasefire?while we were in ladakh?
Do u think u occupy whole kashmir and siachin?
Forgettin Gilgit baltistan,Azad Kashmir?Good coz ur soon going to forget indian occupied Kashmir coz its FREEDOM is near.

And about tht stupid 10 year statement thts wat india has been rantin,cryin n wishing since 47...... another reminder is tht the new generation of kashmiris are in the streets of srinagar today.


----------



## DesiGuy

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Dont try to act like british raj!!
> Coz occupation has never remained and FREEDOM MOVEMENTS and blood of nations have never gone in vain.
> 
> *History repeats itself.*




that is true, indeed.


----------



## FreekiN

indianrabbit said:


> Still no reponse to my questions. So the fanboys only interested in trash talks and continue to believe whatever they wish devoid of substence.



*Are you blind or something? Look at my reply on page 3.*

probably missed other peoples replies as well..


----------



## sunny001

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Live in ur dellusional wet dreams n pools paradise MAMOO.
> Also how do u know im a kid?i might have my own kids like urself>? so stop getting personal like a mentally retarded person.
> 
> U cant answer anythin then it becomes a rant?wow SO PATHETIC.
> Remember 47?when nehru ran to UN begging for a ceasefire?while we were in ladakh?
> Do u think u occupy whole kashmir and siachin?
> Forgettin Gilgit baltistan,Azad Kashmir?Good coz ur soon going to forget indian occupied Kashmir coz its FREEDOM is near.
> 
> And about tht stupid 10 year statement thts wat india has been rantin,cryin n wishing since 47...... another reminder is tht the new generation of kashmiris are in the streets of srinagar today.



I wasn't using kid as a reference to age but to your rants. By the way I am only 26 and I am definitely not married yet. So lets get that aside.

I personally have no problem seeing independent Kashmir or Kashmir in Pakistan, but it just seems too far fetched as India keeps developing, no country in the world could force it to give it away. They can't do it now. Even China wouldn't as trade between our countries grow. 

I feel for kashmiris who are suffering because of our egos. This cancer is not going away anytime soon. Please only reply if you have valid comment to make.

I have no appetite to replying to a delusional person who thinks Islam prophesied that Kashmir will merge with Pakistan, and will take it by violence. That's not gonna happen.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Sunny i never said we want kashmir ... our stand has always been DECISION OF KASHMIRIS.
And by the way im almost 20!

Its true no state wants to give away anything, but its also true tht no TRUE FREEDOM STRUGLE FUELLED WITH BLOOD OF PEOPLE has ever gone in vain.

So no more posts from me now on..i made my point.


----------



## match

DesiGuy said:


> Could have tell same to chines, during tibet riots and xinjiang riots.



Do you think they have guts to tell that ?????


----------



## match

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Sunny i never said we want kashmir ... our stand has always been DECISION OF KASHMIRIS.
> And by the way im almost 20!
> 
> Its true no state wants to give away anything, but its also true tht no TRUE FREEDOM STRUGLE FUELLED WITH BLOOD OF PEOPLE has ever gone in vain.
> 
> So no more posts from me now on..i made my point.



First of all free your part of kashmir then we understand you are telling truth


----------



## Desi Sher

These things will Only continue till the Taser Guns Arrive for the J&K police...... Well then there will be No Deaths Atleast....


----------



## EjazR

*Kashmir Images :: Are hartals really the solution?*

Zeenat Zeeshan Fazil

Life is frozen here. Nothing moves and nothing intends to move. Educational institutions, government sector, private sector &#8211; everything and anything is crippled for the last one month forcing ordinary people to question - Is hartal the only weapon we have available or can we look beyond hartal?

And the most vital question is - With this hartal politics whom are we punishing? A street vendor, daily wagers or our own school going children? Incidentally there is no evidence of strikes in Muslim history. Neither there is any vital correlation between strikes and victorious liberation movements across the world. *Striking work emerged as a communist concept where the daily waged worker would inflict economic costs on the capitalist owners. But in case of Kashmir, it is vice-versa. Here strikes inflict loses on the striking people themselves &#8211; economic, academic and social loses.*

Aren&#8217;t the separatist groups, who call strikes, mindful of the poor people who earn their livelihood on daily basis and have to feed their families in the evening. Their poor families must be starving during these hartal days. How helpless patients feel when they are unable to reach to the hospital and many of them even have lost their lives. But, is any body bothered?

Recently, fetus of the two women, (one traveling from Khag in central Kashmir and another from Kupwara to Srinagar) died in their wombs as they couldn&#8217;t reach maternity hospital on time. The ambulances being stopped at various places both by protestors and police led to the death of the fetus in the wombs itself.
Who is responsible for their death? Undoubtedly those who call for strikes and those who don&#8217;t allow even ambulances to move (they include both stone-pelters and security forces).
Who can compensate the death of the babies to these mothers who in 9 months of pregnancy must have woven lakhs of dreams around the expected new arrivals?

One may not question the genuineness of the protests. Kashmir is an issue and needs to be resolved and all the actors involved need to work in this direction. But at the same time, all the conscientious citizens should be alarmed to see young boys from 7-19 years pelting stones on roads. It is dangerous for the healthy growth of our younger generation.

Leading sociologist of the Valley Prof. B. A. Dabla believes that it&#8217;s the failure of the leadership here that has made young boys to come on the roads. He also believes that these young boys (most of whom are economically backwards)are not clear about their aim.
&#8220;No doubt stone pelting is one of the forms of agitation but it is going to have bad impact on their psychological and sociological development,&#8221; warns Prof. Dabla.

The unabated hartals have played havoc with Valley&#8217;s economy. As per Federation Chamber of Industries Kashmir President, Shakeel Qalander, &#8220;we are losing Rs 100 crore per day which means so far we have incurred loss of around Rs 3000 crores in this very month. These figures further indicate that we are already nearing economic collapse.&#8221;

Last week, in order to get medicines for my ailing mom, I went to one of the chemist shops at Karan Nagar area of down town locality, just to get view of the chemist about the hartal calls. I asked him how he feels about these strike calls.
The chemist while citing an incident told me, &#8220;Today one of the customers whose son was suffering of some serious ailment asked me to give all the medicines written over prescription, that I gave, and when I (chemist) asked him (customer) to pay his bill of Rs 400. His (customers) reply to me( chemist) was &#8220;I have not earned even a single penny due to these strikes, but yes when I will have, will give you and left the shop without paying&#8221;.

Such is the plight of poor people who are not rich like our leaders who sitting idle at their homes can afford to shop on Sundays.
The worst hit has been the education sector. Lakhs of students, who study in government as well as private schools, are confined to homes.

Recently, there was the statement from the DeM Chief, Asiaya Andrabi asking parents not to send their children to their schools and if they sent them (children), parents themselves were responsible if something untoward happened to them (kids).

And then Massarat Alam of Hurriyat (G) suggested people to make arrangements for making their kids study at homes. Alam&#8217;s statement indicated that the groups which are issuing hartal calendar are in no move mood to allow schools function.
*What will happen to our future generation whom we are not allowing to go to schools? Are we aiming at raising an army of illiterate and uneducated people and push the entire society into the abyss of ignorance?*

Students need to be provided peaceful atmospheres in which they could study so that both at national and international level they (students) could project the plight of their motherland. Living in IT world, we can use other means of communication for protests that includes social networking sites, pen down strikes in the offices for an hour or so. Wearing black badges during work is a best way to protest.

No nation can achieve freedom when it is weak and strikes make Kashmir weaker. If Kashmir aspires for freedom, it needs to be economically independent. But are we really economically self dependent? *By calling unwanted strikes our economical dependence on India increases more and more.*
If we could have achieved freedom by constantly shunning away from work for a year, still it wouldn&#8217;t have been a bad bargain. But, would India leave Kashmir, because of strikes? In fact Indian government must be feeling happy when patient can&#8217;t go to hospital, Kashmiri children do not go to school, and the daily waged lose their daily wages.
One can&#8217;t deny human rights violations in Kashmir by armed forces. The need of an hour is to develop an alternative strategy to protest against the human rights violation.
Leadership in Kashmir is in desperate need of new policy. Protests, unwanted shut downs and human sacrifices are not the real solution of this grave problem.
People during Amaranth land row also were exhausted with hartal politics which at that time even was accepted by Syed Ali Geelani himself when on October 6, 2008 strike call was taken back. Even that time Geelani sahib himself agreed that farmers have to reap the harvest, students have to go to schools, employee&#8217;s needs to go to their work and marriages had to be solemnized.
*If then why not now?*


----------



## JonAsad

i think you are obsessed with stone pelting articles now. Take Some time off. Chill


----------



## Hulk

FreekiN said:


> There was always a problem in IoK, do you think in 1989 mass media was such available as it is today?


Trash Argument, I personally visited Kashmir 10 times before 1989, so did million other Indians, since there was no problem with inception and it only started after 1989, I am of opinion that it was created from outside. Pakistan has problem is SWAT and FATA etc was this there originally? So in same way problem can be created.
*Common people are fools* they hardly use brains and most does not have access to all information, so feed them wrong info and they can start hating you. The classic example of this was Sopain killings last years 2 virgins got drowned and 1 doctor deliberately declared it rape. Now it does not take much to think that someone if after creating anti sentiments. Mobs are deliberately made violent with some paid anti social elements playing lead role and then security forces are left with no choice but fire in defense and some people with prejudice will say Army is rude.



> No, they didn't. *Kashmir is pro-Independence*. Pakistan is ok with that, India isn't. After the pro-Independence majority comes the Pro-Pakistan minority and then pro-india etc. That's why India releases movies like "Fanaa" to propogate the anti-Independence sentiment.


I read the bold part 5 times, dude that is certainly not something other Pakistani's are saying, you want names (Think Tank etc)? Only person who say's this is Muradk.



> Every mountain isn't inhabited.
> 
> First of all, get this "all Kashmiri's want to stay with Pakistan" theory out of your head. Most Kashmiri's are PRO-INDEPENDENCE. Second, J&K Minister is not an average civilian now is he?


 You should tell this to your Pakistani friends and bro, this is not my feeling.


> We can say the same thing for Azad Kashmir. Again, you think that we think that there is no pro-India minority. But fact remains, they are a minority.


Highly debatable, Kashmir is not just valley ok. The entire Jammu and Ladhak almost 40% of population is pro India you call that minority? 



> There we go, heres the issue. *You think that we think that all Kashmiris want to join Pakistan and we think that you're insane*. We know that most of Kashmirs public opinion is pro-Independence, and then pro-Pakistan and then the leftovers are pro-India and whatnot. The fact is that the pro-India part's segment of public opinion comes no where near the majorities that hold of their own stance of receding India.


Before calling me insane read my post that is not my feeling but some fanboys say here repeatedly.

What I am saying is that problem of Kashmir is exaggerated. Good number of people are fine with India if we just consider Jammu and Ladhak, rest are divided in Valley with decent number with India too.

If there are riots in Kashmir and curfew a major blame goes to Kashmir's themselves. Keeping peace in your area is primary responsibility of the locals and by resorting to violent protest without provocation some of this they deserve. They are religious fanatic bigots who just cannot stand a non Muslim period.

Kasmiri's were also involved in violence against Hindus of Kashmir origin, how do you explain that, what you saw is what you reap.


----------



## Hulk

FreekiN said:


> *Are you blind or something? Look at my reply on page 3.*
> 
> probably missed other peoples replies as well..


Was sort of blind with 1 inch mobile screen that I was using, since I am in remote place, today I got my laptop connected to cell.

You could have used better language, neither your language in reply was good, anyways choice is yours, I want to be civil.


----------



## Hulk

ice_man said:


> what question might that be??
> 
> and in 71 let's not even go there shall we when india invaded east pakistan!!! you invaded a sovereign country my friend kashmir and east pakistan cannot be compared!!
> 
> infact you should be tried as a nation for trespassing a sovereign country!



71 is past, India was attacked by outside forces many time in the past, your own people say those their forefathers so that way we just did once, now leave past and talk of future. In past war and attack was common and today is not 71 we have a million grievances too.


----------



## GUNNER

indianrabbit said:


> 71 is past, India was attacked by outside forces many time in the past, your own people say those their forefathers so that way we just did once, *now leave past and talk of future*. In past war and attack was common and today is not 71 we have a million grievances too.



By that logic, we should also leave Mumbai and talk of future.


----------



## match

GUNNER said:


> By that logic, we should also leave Mumbai and talk of future.



Its not about only Mumbai ... till now Pakistan not stop sending terrorist in India


----------



## GUNNER

match said:


> Its not about only Mumbai ... till now Pakistan not stop sending terrorist in India



Who says? Indian officials admitted themselves that there was no infiltration in the valley some time back. Even during Musharraf's time, the backing was withdrawn. And, the current protests in Kashmir are spontaneous, outcome of Police brutality. That is admitted by various mainstream analysts in India.

And India continues to back Baloch rebels? 

This tit-for-tat will continue untill the time that people and governments on both sides realize that peace is in the larger interest of both sides and that the road towards peace should be impervious to terrorism. Because there are people on both sides who do not wish peace, even though they are not the majority but are able to sway the public mood by whipping up chauvinism.


----------



## match

GUNNER said:


> *Who says? *Indian officials admitted themselves that there was no infiltration in the valley some time back. Even during Musharraf's time, the backing was withdrawn. And, the current protests in Kashmir are spontaneous, outcome of Police brutality. That is admitted by various mainstream analysts in India.
> 
> And India continues to back Baloch rebels?
> 
> This tit-for-tat will continue untill the time that people and governments on both sides realize that peace in the larger interest of both sides and that the road towards peace should be impervious to terrorism. Because there are people on both sides who do not wish peace, even though they are not the majority but are able to sway the public mood by whipping up chauvinism.




Now a days whole world say that 
now dnt tell me put source cause that may be embarrass your self


----------



## GUNNER

match said:


> Now a days whole world say that
> now dnt tell me put source cause that may be embarrass your self



You see, therein lies the problem.

You highlighted the one part that suits your interest and overlooked everything else. 

In my post, i was specifically talking about the Kashmir issue. 

And, it's not the whole world. For you US, UK and Afghanistan might be the whole world but in reality it's not. The current state of things will not last for ever, even though Pakistan seems to be on the receiving end right now. Even though it suits short-term goals of India, highlighting the terror emanating from Pakistan, but that's not a new phenomenon. India is right now just riding on a wave that will not last. We were talking one year after the attack on the Indian Parliament. Pakistan never backed out of talks after attack on Samjhota. That's the point i 'm trying to make. But for people who do not want to see it happen, nothing else will matter !


----------



## GUNNER

SRINAGAR, India, Aug 1, 2010 (AFP) - *A protester was killed on Sunday in revolt-hit Indian Kashmir, taking to seven the number of young men shot dead by security forces in three days of street clashes, police said.*

The latest casualties mark the deadliest phase in the Muslim-majority Himalayan territory since June 11, when the turmoil erupted after a 17-year-old student was killed by a police tear-gas shell.

The incident took place in Pampore town, about 13 kilometres (eight miles) south of Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian Kashmir.

"One protester was killed and four others injured when security forces opened fire at thousands of violent protesters in Pampore," said a police officer who did not want to be named.

He said one of the injured protesters was in a "critical" condition.

Police opened fire with rifles when thousands of residents in Pampore defied a strict curfew, blocked the region's main highway and attacked security personnel.

The shooting brought even more people out on the streets, who attacked police with rocks and sticks, witnesses said.


----------



## match

GUNNER said:


> SRINAGAR, India, Aug 1, 2010 (AFP) - *A protester was killed on Sunday in revolt-hit Indian Kashmir, taking to seven the number of young men shot dead by security forces in three days of street clashes, police said.*
> 
> The latest casualties mark the deadliest phase in the Muslim-majority Himalayan territory since June 11, when the turmoil erupted after a 17-year-old student was killed by a police tear-gas shell.
> 
> The incident took place in Pampore town, about 13 kilometres (eight miles) south of Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian Kashmir.
> 
> "One protester was killed and four others injured when security forces opened fire at thousands of violent protesters in Pampore," said a police officer who did not want to be named.
> 
> He said one of the injured protesters was in a "critical" condition.
> 
> *Police opened fire with rifles when thousands of residents in Pampore defied a strict curfew, blocked the region's main highway and attacked security personnel.*
> 
> The shooting brought even more people out on the streets, who attacked police with rocks and sticks, witnesses said.



What you expect from Police if some one doing this ?????


----------



## GUNNER

match said:


> What you expect from Police if some one doing this ?????



This is what YOU expect the police to do.

The reaction would have been different if Indian police had shot someone dead protesting water shortage in Delhi !


----------



## Hulk

GUNNER said:


> SRINAGAR, India, Aug 1, 2010 (AFP) - *A protester was killed on Sunday in revolt-hit Indian Kashmir, taking to seven the number of young men shot dead by security forces in three days of street clashes, police said.*
> 
> *The latest casualties mark the deadliest phase in the Muslim-majority Himalayan territory since June 11, when the turmoil erupted after a 17-year-old student was killed by a police tear-gas shell.*
> 
> The incident took place in Pampore town, about 13 kilometres (eight miles) south of Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian Kashmir.
> 
> "One protester was killed and four others injured when security forces opened fire at thousands of violent protesters in Pampore," said a police officer who did not want to be named.
> 
> He said one of the injured protesters was in a "critical" condition.
> 
> Police opened fire with rifles when thousands of residents in Pampore defied a strict curfew, blocked the region's main highway and attacked security personnel.
> 
> The shooting brought even more people out on the streets, who attacked police with rocks and sticks, witnesses said.



Thanks for the bold part.
Death from tear gas proves intention was not to kill but some MF and paid agents used the occasion to create unrest, this is the sum of all the violence there.


----------



## match

indianrabbit said:


> Thanks for the bold part.
> Death from tear gas proves intention was not to kill but *some MF and paid agents* used the occasion to create unrest, this is the sum of all the violence there.



Because of those MF and paid agents..... innocent people have to suffer


----------



## GUNNER

indianrabbit said:


> *Death from tear gas proves intention was not to kill *but some MF and paid agents used the occasion to create unrest, this is the sum of all the violence there.



As i said, the response would have been different if the death had been in somewhere else in India. 

An innocent soul was lost and you chose to find excuses. 

It's not the first time that someone was killed and unfortunately not the last time. You may chose to see outside hand in the violence, as all those who are afraid to realize the facts do, but the reality has been admitted by many inside India as well.


----------



## Desi Sher

GUNNER said:


> As i said, the response would have been different if the death had been in somewhere else in India.
> 
> An innocent soul was lost and you chose to find excuses.
> 
> It's not the first time that someone was killed and unfortunately not the last time. You may chose to see outside hand in the violence, as all those who are afraid to realize the facts do, but the reality has been admitted by many inside India as well.



Innocent souls dont come out and throw stones at police, only the paid souls of terrorists do.... Now dont be over ambitious, how is it your business anyway if something happens inside our territory?


----------



## ice_man

indianrabbit said:


> 71 is past, India was attacked by outside forces many time in the past, your own people say those their forefathers so that way we just did once, now leave past and talk of future. In past war and attack was common and today is not 71 we have a million grievances too.



@INDIAN RABBIT

before 1989 it was similar to the problem in PALESTIAN where the plaestanians seemed to never protest until the 80s and it was mostly the other arab nations fighting the israelis! so does that mean that plaestian had no issues with israeli occupation?? the true fierce rebellion against the israelis kicked off mid 80s! (example stone pelting street protests etc)! 


now coming to your past is past logic then it doesn't matter when the rebellion in kashmir started what matters is its going on now and is gaining strength!! 

when your army chief has said on record that infiltration has declined in kashmir:

Decline in terrorism infiltration: Indian Army

Pakistan News Service - PakTribune


so time to wake up and smell the coffee now its not a pakistan backed freedom struggle it is a movement lead by the kashmiris for the kashmiris!


----------



## GUNNER

Desi Sher said:


> Innocent souls dont come out and throw stones at police, only the paid souls of terrorists do....



There are many protests in India or for that matter across the whole world where police gets pelted by protestors since they are usually the first to come in their way. I wonder if you define all of them as terrorists ! 

And as i said, you can find all the excuses in the world.. but in the end you are justifying the death of a man asking for his right.. That makes you no different than a terrorist ! 



Desi Sher said:


> Now dont be over ambitious, how is it your business anyway if something happens inside our territory?



First of all, it's not your territory. It's disputed. 

And, i have the right to express my ways whether you like it or not.


----------



## Desi Sher

GUNNER said:


> There are many protests in India or for that matter across the whole world where police gets pelted by protestors since they are usually the first to come in their way. I wonder if you define all of them as terrorists !
> 
> And as i said, you can find all the excuses in the world.. but in the end you are justifying the death of a man asking for his right.. That makes you no different than a terrorist !
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, it's not your territory. It's disputed.
> 
> And, i have the right to express my ways whether you like it or not.



Wow wow, I never knew that all over the world there are stone pelting in the name of freedom after Killing and Evacuating The Original Residents(kashmiri Pandits) over there..... I am sorry, I was Ignorant these days that, its Not Only in India but Also a problem World Wide, May I know Which Other Country Faces such problem???


And It Might be a Disputed area for you, but For us, its Just another corner of India where life is Miserable for Both people and Police who both get indulged Because of a Few paid terrorists and separatist Groups....

Yes, you do have the right to Express on PDF.... Please carry on....


----------



## GUNNER

Desi Sher said:


> Wow wow, I never knew that all over the world there are stone pelting in the name of freedom after Killing and Evacuating The Original Residents (kashmiri Pandits) over there..... I am sorry, I was Ignorant these days that, its Not Only in India but Also a problem World Wide, May I know Which Other Country Faces such problem???



I cannot be blamed for your ignorance my dear.

You can take some lessons in history and take a bit more interest in international affairs perhaps? 

I wonder how you bring in the issue of Kashmiri Pundits here. That's not relevant to the discussion. But i hope you are not suggesting that the Pundist are sole original residents of Kashmir valley and all other were infiltrated by Pakistan !




Desi Sher said:


> And It Might be a Disputed are for you, but For us, its Just another corner of India where life is Miserable for Both people and Police who both get indulged Because of a Few paid terrorists and separatist Groups....



Well, clearly you stick to one point and you have all the right to. But, alas my friend that's not the truth.


----------



## Desi Sher

GUNNER said:


> I cannot be blamed for your ignorance my dear.
> 
> You can take some lessons in history and take a bit more interest in international affairs perhaps?
> 
> I wonder how you bring in the issue of Kashmiri Pundits here. That's not relevant to the discussion. But i hope you are not suggesting that the Pundist are sole original residents of Kashmir valley and all other were infiltrated by Pakistan !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, clearly you stick to one point and you have all the right to. But, alas my friend that's not the truth.




Well I dont Blame You for My Ignorance, I blame the history for not Creating such Instances..... Anyways I Brought kashmiri Pundits into Discussion to Make My stand clear that those whom you mention Innocent souls are really not... and it served the Purpose well....

Well, I am sticking on to truth But alas My friend You Are playing with the wrong Toy


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## GUNNER

Desi Sher said:


> Well I dont Blame You for My Ignorance, I blame the history for not Crating such Instances.....



History does not create such instances my friend, people do !
Just for your convenience though, may i add ; Palestine. 
Even though in my first post i was talking about general protests which may be about anything ranging from the recent Greece austerity protests... 



Desi Sher said:


> Anyways I Brought kashmiri Pundits into Discussion to Make My stand clear that those whom you mention Innocent souls are really not... and it served the Purpose well....



All it conveyed to me was that you are willing to side with one group ! And generalize all others as terrorists to your convenience !


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## Desi Sher

GUNNER said:


> History does not create such instances my friend, people do !
> Just for your convenience though, may i add ; Palestine.
> Even though in my first post i was talking about general protests which may be about anything ranging from the recent Greece austerity protests...
> 
> 
> 
> All it conveyed to me was that you are willing to side with one group ! And generalize all others as terrorists to your convenience !



Well, History is A term Used for Such Instances My friend....any ways, palestine is not Of My interest, you can do what ever with it, i have no Concern for it...

Well, My convenience Lies Where Truth is, I dont believe In a person Who throws Stone at the Cops and provoking the cop to use his weapon termed as INNOCENT

Well I did Not justify his death, I just Dint Like the cause for Which he died.... The nation is ashamed For having such People


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## GUNNER

Desi Sher said:


> I just Dint Like the cause for Which he died.... The nation is ashamed For having such People



Obviously, you don't. Neither does the police stationed in Occupied Kashmir.


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## Desi Sher

GUNNER said:


> Obviously, you don't. Neither does the police stationed in Occupied Kashmir.



Yup Certainly I dont Like the Police stationed there too.... He Could Have used his lathi instead..... And Arrest the Youth and killed If proven to be a Terrorist....

Well, Taser Guns are Heading Our Way, So It will be Under control....


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## ao333

Police fire on Kashmir protest | Video | Reuters.com

Firing on one's own people... Despicable.


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## Tshering22

ao333 said:


> Police fire on Kashmir protest | Video | Reuters.com


That's what terror-sympathizers get. They should be happy that they're given even this coverage because we are a democracy. Had we been a single party unitary state, there'd have been a media blackout and military combat operations would be carried out until none of them survived.

Some people don't deserve freedom like these traitors.

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## Bas_tum_Pak

Just seen in International News Channels That 'Curfew in whole state of Kashmir'. It is first time in history , So Freedom is Nearby , InshALLAH


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## bluefox

Bas_tum_Pak said:


> Just seen in International News Channels That 'Curfew in whole state of Kashmir'. It is first time in history , So Freedom is Nearby , InshALLAH





Aur hum Inshallah khoon ki nadiya baha dengey par kasmir nahi dengey ...

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## Tshering22

> Just seen in International News Channels That 'Curfew in whole state of Kashmir'. It is first time in history , So Freedom is Nearby , InshALLAH




Yeah yeah... keep talking. 

We don't give a jack$h!t what "international media" says about the state. Its our territory and blabbing is all they can do. We can't put a lock on everyone's mouth.


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## anathema

This is really sad -- Request Pakistanis to not post deplorable statements -- and indian posters to not respond...

Why sad ? Loss of lives but most importantly -- all the hard work that Army did -- in keeping the area relatively stable for years -- has now come to naught because of this -- Only if politicians had build up during the peace !!


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## !!craft!!

kashmiris are our brothers . what ever is going on over there we should also consider our selfs responsible to some extend. why the sudden protests from our Kashmiri Indians ..i mean the situation was under control .60&#37; of our kasmiri Indians voted for elections...which was the highest.i may be wrong but there aint no fire without some smoke.. instead of playing the blame games we should reality try to look at our system and things will change over there.


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## whocares

why don't the indian security forces get better at non lethal crowd control. killing even person is simply not acceptable.

spend some money to equip security forces with the most modern non lethal methods.

loss of life creates ill will.


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## Tshering22

whocares said:


> why don't the indian security forces get better at non lethal crowd control. killing even person is simply not acceptable.
> 
> spend some money to equip security forces with the most modern non lethal methods.
> 
> loss of life creates ill will.


Ill will has been there even when the Army had not done anything. Face it buddy, they're a bunch of radical terrorist supporters who'd stop at nothing no matter how non-lethal we get. Do you know how many officers get beaten up and lynched?

Sorry to disagree man. These separatists/terrorists-to-be are not worthy of mercy.


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## Materialistic

> *That's what terror-sympathizers get*. They should be happy that they're given even this coverage because we are a democracy. Had we been a single party unitary state, there'd have been a media blackout and military combat operations would be carried out until none of them survived.
> 
> Some people don't deserve freedom like these traitors.



If its so, then some Indian members of this forum should also be in queue to be killed, because just a few days back all the Indian members were sympathizing terrorists, on a thread about Human rights violation in the name of nonjudicial killings of members of Taliban by Pakistan Army.

This is not the way to treat civilians, and they wouldn't have turned this way in first place if their voices were heard.

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## whocares

Tshering22 said:


> Ill will has been there even when the Army had not done anything. Face it buddy, they're a bunch of radical terrorist supporters who'd stop at nothing no matter how non-lethal we get. Do you know how many officers get beaten up and lynched?
> 
> Sorry to disagree man. These separatists/terrorists-to-be are not worthy of mercy.



maybe, i don't all the details.

but i would think that logically it must be possible to bring people under control without having to fire at them. 
some methods must exist


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## Abu Zolfiqar

DAWN.COM | Editorial | More deaths in Kashmir​


> Indian security forces have killed at least four more Kashmiris, as violence returned to the Indian-held territory on Friday and Saturday. The number of civilians killed since June 11 has now climbed to more than 20, with countless injured and hundreds of people thrown into jails. But evidently neither New Delhi nor the Delhi-backed chief minister is willing to learn from the deaths and try earnestly to find out the reasons behind the new wave of protests that has rocked the valley.
> 
> 
> 
> Most shocking was Omar Abdullah&#8217;s remark on Thursday when he asked the Kashmiris to call off the protest because it was causing &#8220;discomfort&#8221; to the people. Here are Kashmiris in a state of rebellion. They have rendered sacrifices in blood for the sake of freedom, because they want to be masters of their destiny. India, on the other hand, has deployed 700,000 troops in the valley to keep them in bondage. That the Kashmiri stir is urban-based is obvious, and not even the most rabidly pro-India elements abroad have detected a foreign hand in the uprising. Even sections of the Indian media admit that the protest is indigenous, with urban youths in the lead. Against this background, one is shocked that Mr Abdullah should refer to this struggle as &#8220;discomfort&#8221;.
> 
> The violence and human rights abuses have finally drawn the attention of UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, who on Wednesday asked Pakistan and India to start talking to resolve the Kashmir dispute. It need not be repeated that Islamabad has never shied away from talks on Kashmir to seek a peaceful solution to the dispute. One wishes New Delhi, too, had the wisdom to realise that killing Kashmiris is no solution to the problem and the only way out are sincere and purposeful talks with Pakistan and the Kashmiris.


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## !!craft!!

Tshering22 said:


> Ill will has been there even when the Army had not done anything. Face it buddy, they're a bunch of radical terrorist supporters who'd stop at nothing no matter how non-lethal we get. Do you know how many officers get beaten up and lynched?
> 
> Sorry to disagree man. These separatists/terrorists-to-be are not worthy of mercy.



Brother an eye of an eye makes the whole world blind... we just cant shoot our own people can we...? we have to find some other way out of this,by getting to its roots..

"Your worst enemy cannot harm you as much as your own unguarded thoughts." --------Gautam buddha... [its your digital point]


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## Awesome

ao333 said:


> Police fire on Kashmir protest | Video | Reuters.com
> 
> Firing on one's own people... Despicable.


They are not their own people... It's a conqueror and conquered relation, oppressor vs oppressed.


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## whocares

the israelis make the same mistake too. there really has to much better non lethal control.

killing is only justified if the other party has lethal weapons.


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## anathema

I was thinking about -- how to take control of the situation or do something positive about it-- Then i wondered what is it that unites India ?

Think about it -- Each state is as different from other as it can be -- be it language , customs , looks , behaviour , etc... Yet we are United -- we are Indians !

I always wondered about this -- Till one fine day a gentleman from Indian UN -- working afghanistan -- answered this question for me ! His answer was -- one of the biggest factors in keeping India united is -- Movies , bollywood !! Without them it would have been difficult. I thought about it ..and it made perfect sense. Ever since the day i can remember -- i have seen movies with messages promoting Indian unity -- which has since then built in.

So question is -- why cant government rop in all prominent indian muslim actors -- all the khans , javeds , etc... and put in a media blitzkreig for all the Kashmiri people -- I am sure all the actors will be proud to take part in this !! A message about Harmony and progress should be promoted. And since Kashmiri's are majority muslims -- they will being to identify with this message !

What say guys ?


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## anathema

Asim Aquil said:


> They are not their own people... It's a conqueror and conquered relation, oppressor vs oppressed.



As long as i can remember --they are our own people -- thats the way its been taught everywhere across the country. There is no special treatment for 'conquered' (in your words) people....It is Pakistan who is primarily obseesed with this conquered , oppressed, theories !! and propogating the same -- to achieve their own selfish goals ...

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## Tshering22

!!craft!! said:


> Brother an eye of an eye makes the whole world blind... we just cant shoot our own people can we...? we have to find some other way out of this,by getting to its roots..
> 
> "Your worst enemy cannot harm you as much as your own unguarded thoughts." --------Gautam buddha... [its your digital point]


Sitting on Gandhi's guidelines today means to simply nuke our entire country. Today's world is not the same as the time when Bapu was there and it is best we keep his sayings to that era with due respect.

Today it is about surviving and flourishing as a nation which we are but restricted because of our own self-imposed limitations. Those separatists are not Kashmiris by soul. I've been to J&K and interacted with Kashmiris. There are two kinds---the majority normal non-protesting Indian ones, and the other terror sympathizing separatist ones which have grown considerably less compared to a decade ago.

So this firing should not be considered something negative. Given a chance these separatists will bomb every city in the country for their so called independence. It is in the country's best interest to deal with them as now they were dealt.

Poverty is no excuse for these bloody separatists. Bihar at one stage was poorer than Kashmir. Did they demand anything like that? By roots would mean getting physical across the borders that our softy government won't do. So this is the only interim solution.

Lord Buddha advised ahimsa for the sake of general peace and harmony. Not for not standing up and defending oneself. Please know the difference as many people mistake us Buddhists as sissies who aren't allowed to retaliate in return of intended harm caused.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

2 More kashmiri youths martyred by indian occupiers?
Shame,
But its good gandhi isnt alive today.


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## Tshering22

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> 2 More kashmiri youths martyred by indian occupiers?
> Shame,
> But its good gandhi isnt alive today.


To you shame, dear buddy. We didn't incite this separatist notions. You incited them in their minds and they're suffering because if this action of yours. Proof you want to know? 

Pakistan is officially known worldwide to be the only country on the planet to "support Kashmiri independence". So blame yourself for their deaths.

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## FreekiN

I see how Indians take up the similar behavior of the Israeli's by shouting, "TERROR SYMPATHIZER!" the same way when someone goes against Israel they get called anti-Semitic. 

Sad.

R.i.P, brave souls.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Tshering22 said:


> To you shame, dear buddy. We didn't incite this separatist notions. You incited them in their minds and they're suffering because if this action of yours. Proof you want to know?
> 
> Pakistan is officially known worldwide to be the only country on the planet to "support Kashmiri independence". So blame yourself for their deaths.



Yeah we r inciting them by givin them 500 rs and heroine?Oh PLZ.
Yes we do support thrm just like UN,EU,OIC and other..
Shame on india and an insult to gandhis non violence ...


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## graphican

Tshering22 said:


> To you shame, dear buddy. *We didn't incite this separatist notions. You incited them in their minds and they're suffering because if this action of yours*. Proof you want to know?
> 
> Pakistan is officially known worldwide to be the only country on the planet to "support Kashmiri independence". So blame yourself for their deaths.



Lest be polite with the the new ones shell we. 

Second, India incited what and what not for Pakistan is not a matter of debate. We are running into a troll but before it really kicks off let me put few thoughts in your mind so you and other Indian fellows would remain mindful of. 

Separatist thoughts if put in somebody's mind are surely an act of offense against the other. Agreed. So what was Mukti Bahni fed for and by who? Second - Baluchistan Liberation Army - THE BLA which is known terrorist and separist organization in Baluchistan is lead by Brhmadan Bugti and Brhmadan Bugti is given Indian Passport, which Indian FM in Pakistan acknowledged and agreed to be canceled. Are we ringing some bells here?

Third - India is supporting Northen Allience in Afghanistan - again a third country who are raging war with rest of the country. Even if you ague Pakistan is supporting the other fractions but that doesn't makes Indian Hands any cleaner. 

Now coming to the Kashmirs again. Kashmiris never accepted to be part of India the first place. The very first fight that erupted in Kashmir over the idea of association was in 1947-1948 and that was the moment Paksitan was born. If your theory is Pakistan incited them at a stage when they were calm and Indian Patriotic then you are factually wrong. 

And now the Idea of Inciting sentiments of liberation in Kashmires is a lot different from any other example you or I can give in context to Pakistan/India. Kashmir was and is a disputed terrotiry and I would quote your own Prime Minister's Words here. 

"Meanwhile, Nehru had promised in 1948 to hold a plebiscite in Kashmir under the auspices of the U.N. but, as Pakistan failed to pull back troops in accordance with the UN resolution and as Nehru grew increasingly wary of the U.N."

A country's president promising to hold plebiscite in Kashmir? At a time when there was no support from Pakistan to the level you suppose we do today. Lets face the reality the way it is. Kashmirs from the day one wanted to unite with Pakistan and it was the Maharaja who went for India against the will of People and that is the basis of oldest Case under UN. 

It doesn't matter if whole world would tell you East is in the north. If you know you are right, you don't need world to be behind you. If Kashmir will be liberated, that wouldn't be because Germany or Finland supported their liberation and I hope you also understand this part well.


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## graphican

JD_In said:


> *sala*...pakistani police and army fires every day...so?



Avoid such words next time and I know you can. You don't grow by being abusive neither your argument gains any more value by using slang like that. Its a warning as well as an advice.


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## whocares

maybe we should just get them high on marijuana 

on a serious note, all killing of protestors 'must' be stopped. some unnecessary deaths will happen as long as armed mercenaries are to be tackled.

but no deaths in street protests.


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## fawwaxs

Curfew continues in H-Kashmir

SRINAGAR: Curfew remained in force in the held Kashmir on Monday, which has been hit by a fresh wave of violence since Friday.

One person, who was hit by a teargas shell three days back in Bijbehara in south Kashmir, succumbed to his injuries last night. With his death, the total number of people who died in the Valley since Friday has gone up to 15.

In New Delhi, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had met last night for the second time in a month to take stock of the situation. The Chief Minister of Held Kashmir Umer Abdullah will meet Prime Minister and Interior Minister today.

Earlier, held Kashmir Chief Minister has appealed for calm and asked political parties and leaders to cooperate with the Government for return of peace in the state. He has vowed to deal sternly with lawbreakers and the perpetrators of violence, asserting that he will not allow them "to win".


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## storm seeker

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> 2 More kashmiri youths martyred by indian occupiers?
> Shame,
> But its good gandhi isnt alive today.



this always make me sad and hurt


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## Desi Sher

Man, We Are In a Hurry For taser Guns, when Would it be Inducted?? so that all the protests can Be Controlled without any Serious Casualties


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## storm seeker

Desi Sher said:


> Man, We Are In a Hurry For taser Guns, when Would it be Inducted?? so that all the protests can Be Controlled without any Serious Casualties



why dont they leave them alone 


noor-e-khuda hai kufr ki harkat pe khanda zan
phoonkon se ye charagh bhujaya na jae ga


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## javaman

storm seeker said:


> this always make me sad and hurt


it will not give anything


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## Desi Sher

storm seeker said:


> why dont they leave them alone
> 
> 
> noor-e-khuda hai kufr ki harkat pe khanda zan
> phoonkon se ye charagh bhujaya na jae ga




Well, They are free to go.... We are not stopping them are we?? Land Is ours.... if they are so Interested get Out of My Country.... As simple as that.. We dont need any Who dont Like The Country they Live in

*Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati Bharata; Abhyutthanam adharmasya tadatmanam srijamyaham. Paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya cha dushkritam; Dharma-samthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge yuge.*

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## storm seeker

Desi Sher said:


> Well, They are free to go.... We are not stopping them are we?? Land Is ours.... if they are so Interested get Out of My Country.... As simple as that.. We dont need any Who dont Like The Country they Live in



ppl makes the land ........ and ppl are not with u


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## Desi Sher

storm seeker said:


> ppl makes the land ........ and ppl are not with u



Land was there even before people existed in this Planet


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## javaman

storm seeker said:


> ppl makes the land ........ and ppl are not with u



god has created the land,even the ppl.i mean god is not with u.u tried many times but what u got *a big 0*.so here the wish of god goes.

accept it or not


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## Areesh

javaman said:


> god has created the land,even the ppl.i mean god is not with u.u tried many times but what u got *a big 0*.so here the wish of god goes.
> 
> accept it or not



May be in your ideology God is with the oppressors but with our ideology God is with the oppressed ones. Time doesn't matter, what matters is that you are the oppressor and like any other oppressor you are destined to defeat.


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## Desi Sher

Areesh said:


> May be in your ideology God is with the oppressors but with our ideology God is with the oppressed ones. Time doesn't matter, what matters is that you are the oppressor and like any other oppressor you are destined to defeat.



If We were Oppressing god Would Have Stood By Your Side all these Years, God helped Us All through, and Even This, we have Full faith in him, he would take care of those Terrorists and Its Financiers because of Whom the Innocents are Getting Brainwashed to protest and Get aggressive


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## match

Bas_tum_Pak said:


> Just seen in International News Channels That 'Curfew in whole state of Kashmir'. It is first time in history , So Freedom is Nearby , InshALLAH



On which International news you seen that curfew in whole kashmir ???

i guess on rupee news


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## !!craft!!

Desi Sher said:


> Well, They are free to go.... We are not stopping them are we?? Land Is ours.... if they are so Interested get Out of My Country.... As simple as that.. We dont need any Who dont Like The Country they Live in
> 
> *Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati Bharata; Abhyutthanam adharmasya tadatmanam srijamyaham. Paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya cha dushkritam; Dharma-samthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge yuge.*



see guys separatist or no seperatist they are indians ...they are our brothers ... they has to be another way out of this rather than shooting them??? the situation was under control some time back...


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## Areesh

Desi Sher said:


> If We were Oppressing god Would Have Stood By Your Side all these Years, God helped Us All through, and Even This, we have Full faith in him, he would take care of those Terrorists and Its Financiers because of Whom the Innocents are Getting Brainwashed to protest and Get aggressive



It is your illusion that God helped you. In fact God gave you the opportunity to leave the path of oppression which you aren't willing to leave just like your mentor Israel. So when God would think it is enough it would be all over for you and your father Israel.


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## Desi Sher

!!craft!! said:


> see guys separatist or no seperatist they are indians ...they out our brothers ... they has to be another way out of this rather than shooting them??? the situation was under control some time back...



Indians Are We , Not a Few Radical people Destroying Public Stuffs and Doing Terrorism Inside the Country.... man We do not want such people....

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## match

!!craft!! said:


> see guys separatist or no seperatist they are indians ...they out our brothers ... they has to be another way out of this rather than shooting them??? the situation was under control some time back...


*
this situation arise just because of umar abdulla i think people say right that experience matters and anti-Indian elements making profit of that* 

I really think we have to put Presidential power in J&K to finalize this issue


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## Desi Sher

Areesh said:


> It is your illusion that God helped you. In fact God gave you the opportunity to leave the path of oppression which you aren't willing to leave just like your mentor Israel. So when God would think it is enough it would be all over for you and your father Israel.



Come On Dont Just Write Off your wit....You have been Supporting palestine, Have You even Spent a penny for them??? Where as India has Given million in aid.... You People can only feel for everything, But Practically You people dont get committed to anything Noble.... So Why waste Your time Analysing? Come on tell me, what have You done for palestine, lets Listen...


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## match

Areesh said:


> It is your illusion that God helped you. In fact God gave you the opportunity to leave the path of oppression which you aren't willing to leave just like your mentor Israel. So when God would think it is enough it would be all over for you and your *father Israel.*



this father Israel have guts to stay between lot of terrorist so we can learn from them thanks for advice .....

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## Areesh

Desi Sher said:


> Come On Dont Just Write Off your wit....You have been Supporting palestine, Have You even Spent a penny for them??? Where as India has Given million in aid.... You People can only feel for everything, But Practically You people dont get committed to anything Noble.... So Why waste Your time Analysing? Come on tell me, what have You done for palestine, lets Listen...



We have no diplomatic relations with the Israel even we have no conflict with Israel Actually we are more interested in opposing the killer than giving money to cure those who were killed by that killer and than having freindly relationship with the killer. I fact we have relations with country like India but not Israel.


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## Desi Sher

Areesh said:


> We have no diplomatic relations with the Israel even we have no conflict with Israel Actually we are more interested in opposing the killer than giving money to cure those who were killed by that killer and than having freindly relationship with the killer. I fact we have relations with country like India but not Israel.



Come On Dont Twist the Facts, We dont have any diplomatic relations with Palestine, but we stood for them when In Need, And Also Like any other nation opposed Israel to do So..... So Please dont teach Us The Meaning of Concern, Concern is not speaking for Them, But Supporting them when they need it....


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## Areesh

Desi Sher said:


> Come On Dont Twist the Facts, We dont have any diplomatic relations with Palestine, but we stood for them when In Need, And Also Like any other nation opposed Israel to do So..... So Please dont teach Us The Meaning of Concern, Concern is not speaking for Them, But Supporting them when they need it....



Well you are a genius. You support both. The murderer and the one who was murdered. What a pathetic support.


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## igoogle

Areesh said:


> We have no diplomatic relations with the Israel even we have no conflict with Israel Actually we are more interested in opposing the killer than giving money to cure those who were killed by that killer and than having freindly relationship with the killer. I fact we have relations with country like India but not Israel.



Yes...Yes...Hum karainge kuch nahi....sirf shor machainge....

Just check the history of Muslim Countries...how many countries have actually gone ahead and helped the other Muslim country in need.... Pakistan being a very recent example.....How many Muslim countries have come to help Pakistan in this time of turmoil.


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## Desi Sher

Areesh said:


> Well you are a genius. You support both. The murderer and the one who was murdered. What a pathetic support.



Yes I do..... But I do Not support those golden hands who made these two clash....But again, you became silent on Palestine.... So Please stop talking for those in need, but Support them in need..ok?? Better luck next time


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## Areesh

igoogle said:


> Yes...Yes...Hum karainge kuch nahi....bare shor machainge....
> 
> Just check the history of Muslim Countries...how many countries have actually gone ahead and helped the other Muslim country in need.... Pakistan being a very recent example.....How many Muslim countries have come to help Pakistan in this time of turmoil.



So what? 


Desi Sher said:


> Yes I do..... But I do Not support those golden hands who made these two clash....But again, you became silent on Palestine.... So Please stop talking for those in need, but Support them in need..ok?? Better luck next time



Yeah we will also try to support both the murderer and the one murdered next time.


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## Desi Sher

Areesh said:


> Yeah we will also try to support both the murderer and the one murdered next time.



Sure..... We all want to see You guys Turn Angels Soon


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## javaman

another bashing thread


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## igoogle

ao333 said:


> Police fire on Kashmir protest | Video | Reuters.com
> 
> Firing on one's own people... Despicable.



Whats new in this : world over police resorts to firing at a mob that is hell bent on destroying public property...and hurting Government employees.

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## Hafizzz

8 More people killed in Indian OCCUPIED Kashmir bring the total of 33 people dead over the past seven weeks :



> Massive protests continue in Indian Kashmir
> 1 dead, 30 wounded in more India Kashmir protests - KansasCity.com
> 
> Government troops fired at thousands of activists protesting Indian rule over the country's portion of Kashmir on Monday, injuring six people in persistent violence that has left 33 people dead over the past seven weeks.



The killing of unarmed civilians continue and the West turns a blind eye to Indian massacre of Kashmiris.


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## javaman

Hafizzz said:


> 8 More people killed in Indian OCCUPIED Kashmir bring the total of 33 people dead over the past seven weeks :
> 
> 
> 
> The killing of unarmed civilians continue and the West turns a blind eye to Indian massacre of Kashmiris.



west is busy in afgh-pak


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## GUNNER

NEW DELHI, India, Aug 2, 2010 (AFP) - Indian Kashmir is locked in a "cycle of violence," its chief minister said Monday, after holding crisis talks in New Delhi on a wave of unrest that has left more than 30 people dead.

Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, who pleaded for an end to the violence in a television broadcast on Sunday, flew to the capital where he met Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and attended a meeting of the government's security cabinet.

Indian Kashmir is currently embroiled in the deadliest wave of unrest to hit the Muslim-majority region for two years.

The death in early June of a 17-year-old student -- killed by a police tear-gas shell -- triggered a rolling series of protests against Indian rule that has seen 32 protesters killed, most of them as a result of police firing.

Fifteen people have died since Friday alone, including four who were killed Sunday when an arson attack on a police station ignited some stored explosives, demolishing the building.

"Tragically, we have locked ourselves into a cycle of violence where protest leads to death, leading to further protests and further casualties," Abdullah told reporters after his meetings with Singh and senior cabinet ministers.

"We have to break the cycle," he said, appealing again for protesters to respect curfews that have been enforced -- with little success -- across the Kashmir Valley.

While insisting that his priority was to prevent any further deaths, Abdullah stressed that restraint had to be shown on both sides.

"When people take it upon themselves to take the law into their hands there are consequences and sometimes these consequences are tragic," he said.

"Some semblance of normalcy would have to be a precursor for us taking any sort of initiative forward," he added.

Speaking in parliament on Monday, Home Minister P. Chidambaram acknowledged that the situation had "taken a serious turn" over the past few weeks.

Indian officials say Pakistan-backed hardline separatists are behind the latest unrest, but locals say it is the spontaneous result of years of pent-up frustration and alleged abuses by police and paramilitary forces.

Decades of on-off political dialogue about the status of the disputed territory have made no tangible progress, and unemployment is running high, especially among young people.

Abdullah acknowledged there was a sense of "alienation" among Kashmiris and said that political action was needed to find a permanent solution.

Police and paramilitary forces sought to enforce a curfew Monday in the main Kashmiri city of Srinagar and other towns and villages across the Kashmir valley.

Despite the heavy security presence, residents have regularly defied the curfews to stage large-scale street demonstrations.

"We are stretched as far as it is possible to be stretched," Abdullah said, adding that he had asked the home minister to provide more paramilitary troops as well as specialised units of the police Rapid Action Force.

Police say they have opened fire only after coming under attack, and after first trying to disperse the crowds with baton charges and tear gas.

Locals insist the protests have been vocal but peaceful.

Last week, Abdullah's government ordered a judicial probe into the protesters' deaths. 

The inquiry will be led by two retired judges and has been tasked with submitting a report within three months.


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## Desi Sher

Well, Police Station troched and Mobs Killed a Few innocents, Well thats not at all an Issue here, Issue is when Police takes action on Separatists...lol... What can I say.... Some pathetic thoughts and Brain washing Ruining some youths in Sri nagar....


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## GUNNER

SRINAGAR, India, Aug 2, 2010 (AFP) - Four protesters in Indian Kashmir were killed in firing by security forces on Monday, police said, during the latest violent demonstrations against Indian rule.

"The security forces had to open fire after baton charges and tear-gas failed to disperse the protesters," a police officer who declined to be named told AFP by telephone.

The four men died in separate incidents across the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley. In one incident, a man died and ten other protesters were injured when they tried to storm a camp used by security personnel, the officer said.

Indian Kashmir has been wracked by pro-independence protests since a 17-year-old student was killed by a police tear-gas shell in early June.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Curfew Continues in H-Kashmir​*





> SRINAGAR: Curfew remained in force in the held Kashmir on Monday, which has been hit by a fresh wave of violence since Friday.
> 
> *One person, who was hit by a teargas shell three days back in Bijbehara in south Kashmir, succumbed to his injuries last night. With his death, the total number of people who died in the Valley since Friday has gone up to 15.*
> 
> In New Delhi, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had met last night for the second time in a month to take stock of the situation. The Chief Minister of Held Kashmir Umer Abdullah will meet Prime Minister and Interior Minister today.
> 
> Earlier, held Kashmir Chief Minister has appealed for calm and asked political parties and leaders to cooperate with the Government for return of peace in the state. He has vowed to deal sternly with lawbreakers and the perpetrators of violence, asserting that he will not allow them "to win".



Curfew continues in H-Kashmir - GEO.tv



Mr. Abdullah is a real chaamcha......he has got to go


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## match

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> *Mr. Abdullah is a real chaamcha..*....he has got to go



So what ????


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*SO* he is (if he hasnt already) lost all credibility among occupied Kashmiris ---and it's clear that he is ready to work for new delhi and not for the Kashmiris who are clearly suffering right now.

that is ''what''


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## match

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> *SO* he is (if he hasnt already) lost all credibility among occupied Kashmiris ---and it's clear that he is ready to work for new delhi and not for the Kashmiris who are clearly suffering right now.
> 
> that is ''what''



Do you think any one need Pakistani certificate to show his credibility ????

Btw till now PM of Pak occupied Kashmir is Islamabad puppet he cant even order any thing he need Islamabad permission .. right 
So whats his credibility among occupied Kashmiris


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## Abu Zolfiqar

match said:


> Do you think any one need Pakistani certificate to show his credibility ????



i'm just an observer


The protests are growing in number. Those are Kashmiri peoples, not ''ISI agents'' as some of you hindustanys like to deduct, in order to calm yourselves and remain in denial.

When Mr. Abdullah travels over to hindustan and declares:


_



Addressing a press conference after a meeting with the Prime 
Minister and senior ministers here, Omar said curfew will be implemented strictly and sought additional paramilitary forces especially the Rapid Action Force to deal with street protesters

Click to expand...

_
(Curfews will be enforced strictly in Kashmir: Omar - Hindustan Times)

Do you think this is what Kashmiris want to hear? They are revolting now for the same reason. It&#8217;s unfortunate that the &#8216;&#8217;worlds biggest democracy&#8217;&#8217; stamps out dissent with an iron fist. Then again, you declare that this (disputed) area is an &#8216;&#8217;integral part&#8217;&#8217; of Hindustan when in fact the realities and the sentiments of the people suggest otherwise



> Btw till now PM of Pak occupied Kashmir is Islamabad puppet he cant even order any thing he need Islamabad permission .. right
> So whats his credibility among occupied Kashmiris



Hmmm, where are the protests? I don&#8217;t see any

For your info, AJ&K, parliamentary system was introduced and Prime Minister, as the Chief Executive of the State, was elected by the majority of the votes of the Legislative Assembly. They have their own independent Supreme Court and High Court. The Ministry of Kashmir affairs and Gilgit Baltistan affairs serves as a link between the Government of Pakistan and the Government of Azad Jammu and Kashmir. 

Credibility seems to be no issue, since it isn&#8217;t our policy to oppress and subjugate them to curfews and extra-judicial killings.


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## bluefox

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Yeah we r inciting them by givin them 500 rs and heroine?Oh PLZ.
> Yes we do support thrm just like UN,EU,OIC and other..
> Shame on india and an insult to gandhis non violence ...



Oh comon shame on U and the likes of u...What did u ppl give in return to gandhi's non violence?? *Calcutta massacare*.

U guys think u are Great aggressors and we indians dumbos??It were u guys who used force first..and when u guys cant win u cry over gandhi..

Non violence can be practised with humans not with beasts.These very kashmiri protesters killed 100's of kashmiri who have difference of opinion with them.

*Remember these very freedom fighters AKA stone pelters killed a 11 day baby*
Stone-pelters kill 11-day-old infant in Kashmir

*If gandi would have gone to kashmir the bloody seperatists would have stoned him too*


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## DESERT FIGHTER

bluefox said:


> Oh comon shame on U and the likes of u...What did u ppl give in return to gandhi's non violence?? *Calcutta massacare*.
> 
> *U guys think u are Great aggressors and we indians dumbos??*It were u guys who used force first..and *when u guys cant win u cry over gandhi..*
> Non violence can be practised with humans not with beasts.*These very kashmiri protesters killed 100's of kashmiri who have difference of opinion with them.*
> *Remember these very freedom fighters AKA stone pelters killed a 11 day baby*
> Stone-pelters kill 11-day-old infant in Kashmir
> 
> *If gandi would have gone to kashmir the bloody seperatists would have stoned him too*



Shame on those who kill innocent,cry victims an support agression = U and ur likes.

Did we come n kill people in calcutta?
No we think ur not dumbos rather agressors acting like tht.

These innoceent stone pelters killed 100s  who were against them?

WOW this must have happened in ur WET DREAMS.

A baby was killed hmm said.. maybe by an indian soldiers gass can.. 

I dont know about gandhi but indians sure killed over 30 young men in these few weeks and 150000 in these 6 decades...

About us cryin about gandhi no thts not true .. we only like some of gandhis ideas except the sleeping with little girls etc .


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## EjazR

*DNA: India - Mobs defy curfew in Kashmir, 8 killed*

*Kashmir remained tense for the fourth consecutive day on Monday as eight more people, including a nine-year-old boy, were killed in clashes with security forces.*

*Sixty-seven civilians, 39 policemen and 28 CRPF jawans were injured, and dozens of government buildings, police stations and CRPF camps were set on fire by curfew-defying mobs in the Valley.*

J&K chief minister Omar Abdullah sought from the Centre more paramilitary forces, especially Rapid Action Force troopers, to curb the street protests, and got a favourable response.

Abdullah briefed a meeting in which all the members of the cabinet committee of security (CCS), including finance minister Pranab Mukherjee, home minister P Chidambaram, defence minister AK Antony and external affairs minister SM Krishna, were present.

&#8220;The home minister (P Chidambaram) has assured me that he will look into these requirements,&#8221; Abdullah said later. Sources said the Centre has promised Abdullah full support, but urged him to get tough with the agitators.

Meanwhile, anger is growing among the people in the Valley over the deaths.

*&#8220;A youth was killed when security forces opened fire in Kulgam. He was hit on the thigh, but could not be taken to hospital in time because the protestors did not allow the smooth movement of vehicles,&#8221; a police officer said. Security forces opened fire in Pulwama after a mob attacked their camp and a police post. The firing claimed the life of the youth while a man died in a stampede after a mob was chased away at Sangam Anantnag.*

Another youth was killed in Kralpora-Kupwara. &#8220;The mob chased the security personnel and tried to attack the CRPF camp. There was firing, which resulted in the death of the youth,&#8221; said a police spokesperson. &#8220;Security forces lathi-charged the protesters and even used teargas to disperse the stone-pelting mob.&#8221;

*Mobs defied curfew in Kakapora, Pulwama, Budgam, Anantnag, Kulgam and Kupwara. &#8220;They attacked the offices of the CMO and the tehsildar, the horticulture office and the tehsil office and set them on fire in Budgam,&#8221; the spokesman said. &#8220;They damaged the Budgam railway station and set a shed on fire. The miscreants pelted stones on the building of the Budgam police station. Mobs pelted stones in Galwanpora and Hyderpora.&#8221;*

Violence has spread to those areas which had voted en masse in the 2008 elections. &#8220;The situation is grave,&#8221; said a senior police officer. &#8220;I hope the army is called in, but the decision lies with the political establishment. Our job is to give inputs.&#8221;


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## Desi Sher

Send the Specialized Wing Of CRPF that is *Rapid Action Force* to Control the Situation in Sri Nagar


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## EjazR

*Stop stone-pelting: Geelani?s plea - Hindustan Times*

The hard-line leader of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, appealed to people not to resort to stone-pelting and attacks on public property as he called for a Eidgah march on Tuesday. Geelani, however, is on a shaky ground after masked protesters defied the Pakistan Occupied Kashmir-based United Jehad Council chief Syed Salahuddins plea to go for a flexible protest calendar.

The next protest programme will be announced at the Eidgah and a resolution will be passed to press India to resolve the Kashmir issue as per UN resolutions, Geelani told a local a wire service.

Urging the state not to impose curfew tomorrow, Geelani said at a press conference at the Sher-i-Kashmir Institute of Medical Sciences hospital on Monday: If people are able to display discipline at Eidgah, half our struggle is won.

Moderate Hurriyat leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq also urged the people to organise peaceful protests.

We should not resort to any method during protests which many Indian agencies might try to take advantage of.

Geelani (84), who was hospitalised after he complained of chest pain, refused to leave the hospital three days ago and refused to sign a release parole.

He demanded that all political prisoners and protesters be released along with him. The demand was rejected by the authorities.

Geelani will be leading special prayers at the Eidgah  a ground in Srinagars downtown area when special prayers like Eid is offered every year and has been separatists platform since the 1990s  on Tuesday afternoon.

I will also reveal details of my meeting with New Delhis interlocutors in Srinagars sub-jail recently, he added. A three-member team from New Delhi met Geelani two weeks ago in the jail.

*Sikh youths rush to donate blood*

Sikh youths donated blood on Monday for those injured in clashes with the security forces in the Kashmir Valley even as a shutdown was observed in Kathua town to protest the chopping off hair of a Sikh youth in Pulawama last week.

Earlier, SOS messages on social-networking websites, asking for food and blood evoked huge response in the Valley. Hospital authorities even had to ask the donors to come back later.


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## EjazR

^^^ No one is killing children on basis of religion. There is a pretty good chance chance that the rioting youth who died were shot by a local J&K policeman who was a muslim as well given 70&#37; of J&K police is muslim.


Latest press conference by CM Omar Abdullah on the grave situation in the valley


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

Self Defense is violent, but justified. This guy speaks in the comfort of air conditioning and Microsoft Word.


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## ice_man

if viloence cannot solve anything then why have a WoT in afghanistan? why attack iraq? 

let's stop all forms of violence! double standards of the world are appalling!

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## EjazR

I care about the people in Kashmir valley and hence I agree with the fact that in this case violence will not solve anything. Anyone who does care about the lives of the people will agree with this. From the elected officials to the sepratists (who actually care for their people).

Those who actually want violence should remember the period post '89 where the people who worst affected where the valley kashmiris thanks to both the militants and government forces. 

There is the example from 2004-2008 when one of the most peaceful times in the past two decades in the valley. The main problem is the local J&K police not using non-lethal crowd control techniques as deaths during protests causes more protests. And then protests turn violent,like for example the mob burning a police station in Khrew and then four people died when explosives burst and a 9 year old boy died in a stampede after the CRPF started a lathi charge.

At other places, people who open shops are being stoned, if some one drives out to go to the hospital or school they are being stoned. All these makes it counterproductive for the Kashmir people themselves.

*@ice_man*
Do you think the Iraq and Afghanistan wars made things better or worse for the US. Those wars actually proved that violence does not solve everything. It should be used in very exceptional circumstances and in a controlled manner under a strict command and control.

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## ice_man

@Ejar 

so you admit war solves nothing then the world should just stop the WoT and the US and Nato and the allied forces should just walk away from these places! if so then this whole WoT is totally wrong and India should denounce it! should also denounce the israeli atrocities in palestian!


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## whocares

BATMAN said:


> Nothing can undo the attrocities which Kashmiris have suffered from generations.
> indiscriminate killing of innocent Kashmiris should stop immediately..... it is inhuman to kill childrens on the basis of the religon of their parents.



wtf is this? i condemn the killings too but the idea that its done on the basis of religion is just absurd.

its a result of the incompetence and bad methods .abuses due to government corruption and incompetence happen everywhere (pak, us, china ...)


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## whocares

ice_man said:


> if viloence cannot solve anything then why have a WoT in afghanistan? why attack iraq?
> 
> let's stop all forms of violence! double standards of the world are appalling!



double standards between whom? is omar abdullah bush?


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## ice_man

india calls the american occupation of afghanistan as justified and as a liberation of the poor from cruel evil taliban! while palestanian supression by india's buddy israel is also taken as correct

while resistence in kashmir from the "evil" indian occupation is deemed as wrong by india!! this is YOUR DOUBLE STANDARD!


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## EjazR

ice_man said:


> @Ejar
> 
> so you admit war solves nothing then the world should just stop the WoT and the US and Nato and the allied forces should just walk away from these places! if so then this whole WoT is totally wrong and India should denounce it! should also denounce the israeli atrocities in palestian!



lol@ice_man

I wish I had the power to influence world government but unfortunately I don't. 

I would discuss other stuff but its all offtopic so I wont discuss that here.


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## EjazR

ice_man said:


> *india calls the american occupation of afghanistan as justified and as a liberation of the poor from cruel evil taliban! while palestanian supression by india's buddy israel is also taken as correct*



Please backup your statments or admit them as false statements.

GoI has been a strong supporter of the two state solution. Educate yourself before you show your ignorance on world affairs.

And if you hadn't heard, US and NATO is in Afghanistan thanks to the support of GoP. So Pakistan more than India at the government and army level supports US and NATO.

Infact, Jaswant Singh MP of BJP actually proposed the withdrawal of all western forces and a joint regional force of Afghanistan's neighbours to stablise it to a neutral state.

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## Tshering22

EjazR said:


> ^^^ No one is killing children on basis of religion. There is a pretty good chance chance that the rioting youth who died were shot by a local J&K policeman who was a muslim as well given 70&#37; of J&K police is muslim.
> 
> 
> Latest press conference by CM Omar Abdullah on the grave situation in the valley
> YouTube - Omar Abdullah addresses media


Have separatists ever listened before that they'd listen now? This is no way to treat traitors. Get rid of them. Omar Abdullah of all people should know this living in the valley for all these years.


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## Tshering22

EjazR said:


> Please backup your statments or admit them as false statements.
> 
> GoI has been a strong supporter of the two state solution. Educate yourself before you show your ignorance on world affairs.
> 
> And if you hadn't heard, US and NATO is in Afghanistan thanks to the support of GoP. So Pakistan more than India at the government and army level supports US and NATO.
> 
> Infact, Jaswant Singh MP of BJP actually proposed the withdrawal of all western forces and a joint regional force of Afghanistan's neighbours to stablise it to a neutral state.


The bottomline is we'd get connected to all their miseries somehow or the other and then blamed. So what's the point of taking words seriously,buddy? Let the Army handle the separatist sumbags.


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## FreekiN

indianrabbit said:


> Trash Argument, I personally visited Kashmir 10 times before 1989, so did million other Indians, since there was no problem with inception and it only started after 1989, I am of opinion that it was created from outside. Pakistan has problem is SWAT and FATA etc was this there originally? So in same way problem can be created.



You think you are the only one who uses personal experiences to gain judgement? A third of my family was cut off during the partition(mothers side). They lived in Srinagar and at that time it seemed inevitable that Kashmir was going to Pakistan until the war started. Those who wanted to go to Pakistan during the war were killed by Indian soldiers and they were stuck. Those who attempted to leave, also killed. Two of my maternal grandfathers brothers died and a sister two. One of the brothers lived of course, thats how we found out what happened until around 40 or so years later, a little before my birthday a call came, it was my maternal grandpa's brother. He told us everything that happened, who was killed, how the Indians lie, etc. We still have contact with him and his family but only through the internet but hes pretty old now. Of course i didnt even exist when the call came.



> *Common people are fools* they hardly use brains and most does not have access to all information, so feed them wrong info and they can start hating you. The classic example of this was Sopain killings last years 2 virgins got drowned and 1 doctor deliberately declared it rape. Now it does not take much to think that someone if after creating anti sentiments. Mobs are deliberately made violent with some paid anti social elements playing lead role and then security forces are left with no choice but fire in defense and some people with prejudice will say Army is rude.



Or intentionally feed propaganda into their heads, or cut off a side of the truth, and show it partly, and then they find out what really happened, the outcome isn't very different, eh?



> I read the bold part 5 times, dude that is certainly not something other Pakistani's are saying, you want names (Think Tank etc)? Only person who say's this is Muradk.



"Dr Bradnock said that in the Kashmir valley - the mainly Muslim area at the centre of the insurgency - support for independence is between 74% and 95%.

But in the predominantly Hindu Jammu division to the south, support is under 1%.Dr Bradnock said that in the Kashmir valley - the mainly Muslim area at the centre of the insurgency - support for independence is between 74% and 95%.

But in the predominantly Hindu Jammu division to the south, support is under 1%."

BBC News - 'First' Kashmir survey produces 'startling' results



> Highly debatable, Kashmir is not just valley ok. The entire Jammu and Ladhak almost 40% of population is pro India you call that minority?



When 43% of the IoK population is worried about human rights abuses, it's not a minority, but it's still one of the three. We never see any pro-India riots in Pakistan Kashmir now do we?





> What I am saying is that problem of Kashmir is exaggerated. Good number of people are fine with India if we just consider Jammu and Ladhak, rest are divided in Valley with decent number with India too.



There are formulas proposed for those sections who want to go to Pakistan and those who want to go to India and those who want Independence. i'm sure you have seen them.



> If there are riots in Kashmir and curfew a major blame goes to Kashmir's themselves. Keeping peace in your area is primary responsibility of the locals and by resorting to violent protest without provocation some of this they deserve. They are religious fanatic bigots who just cannot stand a non Muslim period.



If that 17 year old was your son, you would grab a shitload of people and protest, then the soldiers would fire at you, and then it would turn violent. 



> Kasmiri's were also involved in violence against Hindus of Kashmir origin, how do you explain that, what you saw is what you reap.


You mean Pundits? 99% pro India and 1% percent independent. Chenab formula is available for them. 







Let's say the image shows independent Kashmir outlined like that. Disregard the orange.


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## GUNNER

ISLAMABAD, Aug 3, 2010 (AFP) - Pakistan on Tuesday called on nuclear-armed rival India to "exercise restraint" in its zone of the Himalayan region of Kashmir, where at least 42 people have died in weeks of unrest.

"There is a need for the government of India to exercise restraint," a statement quoted Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi as saying.

"Pakistan is seriously concerned at the escalation of violence against Kashmiri people that has resulted in the loss of innocent lives," Qureshi said.

Qureshi expressed Pakistan's "unequivocal solidarity" with the people of Kashmir and said the country would "continue to extend its political, moral and diplomatic support to the just cause of... their right to self-determination."

Qureshi said recent statements from the United Nations and Organisation of Islamic Conference "illustrate the collective concern of the international community at the human rights violations in Indian occupied Kashmir."


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## SEAL

Its month of August on 14aug we will see Kashmiri people celebrating Pakistan independence day and 15Aug as a black day. 
What a shame for Indians and Omer Abdullah.


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## InDIaN BeAst

why so many indians are banned who commented on this thread? while some trolls roam free?


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## karan.1970

GUNNER said:


> ISLAMABAD, Aug 3, 2010 (AFP) - Pakistan on Tuesday called on nuclear-armed rival India to "exercise restraint" in its zone of the Himalayan region of Kashmir, where at least 42 people have died in weeks of unrest.
> 
> "There is a need for the government of India to exercise restraint," a statement quoted Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi as saying.
> 
> "*Pakistan is seriously concerned at the escalation of violence against Kashmiri people that has resulted in the loss of innocent lives," Qureshi said.*
> Qureshi expressed Pakistan's "unequivocal solidarity" with the people of Kashmir and said the country would "continue to extend its political, moral and diplomatic support to the just cause of... their right to self-determination."
> 
> Qureshi said recent statements from the United Nations and Organisation of Islamic Conference "illustrate the collective concern of the international community at the human rights violations in Indian occupied Kashmir."



Quereshi should really focus on inside Pakistan where 35 people got killed over night in Karachi after political assassination of a MPA. Being a foreign minister does not mean you just look outside..

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## gubbi

karan.1970 said:


> Quereshi should really focus on inside Pakistan where 35 people got killed over night in Karachi after political assassination of a MPA. Being a foreign minister does not mean you just look outside..



Exactly. Seriously, their own house is on fire and yet they want to meddle in other's affairs. 

On topic, there is no limit to what a mob can do, especially when instigated on religious and pseudo-nationalistic lines. When the mob pays no heed to repeated warnings, law enforcement forces have to resort to some uncomfortable means to quell the unrest. 

If people have common sense, they would not be a part of a rampaging mob frothing on religious and pseudo-nationalistic fervor. The mob did not heed the warnings form local enforcement forces and consequences followed. 

*Democracy is a device that insures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.* Its up to the Kashmiri people to pull themselves up, stop this madness and mayhem, and work to better their lives, instead of giving in to 'instigated' pseudo-nationalistic sentiments based on religion. 

Stupid religions, stupid pseudo-nationalism!


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## somya

If Kashmiri people are given a chance to be a part of Pakistan for just one year( as emotional people will take that time to realise fact), they will realise there mistake. Every state of Pakistan are in mess. People of one state have no faith on people of other state.

They unite only against India, otherwise inside they broken among themselves(every one knows it).


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## FlickerSingh

GUNNER said:


> ISLAMABAD, Aug 3, 2010 (AFP) - Pakistan on Tuesday called on nuclear-armed rival India to "exercise restraint" in its zone of the Himalayan region of Kashmir, where at least 42 people have died in weeks of unrest.
> 
> "There is a need for the government of India to exercise restraint," a statement quoted Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi as saying.
> 
> "Pakistan is seriously concerned at the escalation of violence against Kashmiri people that has resulted in the loss of innocent lives," Qureshi said.
> 
> Qureshi expressed Pakistan's "unequivocal solidarity" with the people of Kashmir and said the country would "continue to extend its political, moral and diplomatic support to the just cause of... their right to self-determination."
> 
> Qureshi said recent statements from the United Nations and Organisation of Islamic Conference "illustrate the collective concern of the international community at the human rights violations in Indian occupied Kashmir."



the uno and the oic just expressed concerns about the violence. all which the troublemakers in kashmir have for "political, moral and diplomatic support to the just cause of self determination" is pakistan. pakistan is a nation which is self balkanizing itself daily and is begging the heavens for india to be punished with the same medicine. sorry pakistan. the rest of the world cares nothing for kashmir issue. it is an indian issue. go sort out your own house and after 100 years when you have limited stability in your country then try and play big dhada of asia. in the meantime india will sort out its trouble makers in any manner which it feels necessary


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## zeeshe100

In hindi its JAFAR in urdu its ZAFAR ...like in urdu 'Pakistan' but in arabic its Bakistan.... =))


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## Abu Zolfiqar

FreekiN dear, there are many other families with very similar stories.

Sri Nagar in particular is one area where the Kashmiri ''street'' is literally against (they HATE) the indian occupation.


indians will try to fudge numbers, present half-truths (at best), cite a few flawed ''polls'' here and there, bring up sham (scam?) elections and claim that Kashmiris will opt for india

this is far from reality in the Muslim majority disputed territory...FARRRR from it.


and we are seeing it everyday......how many Kashmiris did occupying forces of the neighbour country kill?


Over 50. Mostly unarmed youth who were simply protesting. 


recurring pattern. Kind of like how after this post, some hindustany will mention Baluchistan which isnt even a similar issue as it isnt disputed territory; and only a small fraction of the population is actually demanding ''independence''


in Kashmir, the calls for it can be vociferously heard.....




more power to your family, Freekin, and to others like yours that have endured the senseless violence and heavy handedness of the occupation of Kashmir by this God-damned neighbour country of ours


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## Kompromat

Shame on the barbarians.

Kyodo News - Story

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## Kompromat

*Five more killed in Kashmir Valley protest*s
4 Aug 2010, 0411 hrs IST,ET Bureau






Five more killed in Kashmir Valley protests-Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times


> SRINAGAR: At least four protesters were killed and over 20 injured in different incidents of police firing on unruly mobs in the Kashmir Valley in Tuesday. Another protester died in hospital, taking the day&#8217;s toll to 5.
> 
> A few thousands breached curfew to reach Eidgah for a march called by Hurriyat leader Syed Geelani. They carried the body of one of the two young men killed in firing for burial.
> 
> Witnesses said a police officer fired from a close range, hitting two persons. One of them, Anees Ahmad Ganai, died in hospital. He received a bullet in his chest.
> 
> Another mob in Narwara clashed with the police and a boy named Miraj-ud-Din, injured in police firing, died on his way to the hospital.
> 
> A clash in Zainakote, an industrial area in the city outskirts, saw protesters stone-pelting and police retaliating by firing. Of the two injured here, one is critical.
> 
> Another youth, identified as Muhammad Jabbar, was killed in Frisal Yaripora village of Kulgam district when mobs attacked and torched a police post.
> 
> &#8220;After the post was abandoned by the policemen, mobs continued to chase them with murderous intent. The policemen fired in self-defence resulting in the death of a local youth and injuries to three others,&#8221; police here said.
> 
> Later, the irate mobs torched the homes of a local policeman and a special police officer (SPO) in the village.
> 
> Reyaz Ahmad, a young man who had received a bullet injury in Khrew procession few days back succumbed to his injuries in SKIMS. He was on ventilator for last three days.
> 
> There were reports of mobs in Safapora, Budgam, Sangham, Samboora, Bandipora, Awantipora, Kulgam and Baramulla pelting stones on security personnel. They attacked public and police properties at a number of places, a police spokesman said. Some of them dispersed after they were fired upon.
> 
> A police spokesman said the unruly mobs set afire two abandoned houses of migrants, the old Naib Tehsildar office in Bomie Sopore, police post at Frisal Sherpora and houses of a cop and Special Police Official. They also attacked police post at Bomie.
> 
> The major achievement of the security forces on Tuesday was the sanitization of the national highway. Army was called in and it is protecting the highway from Qazigund to Srinagar. However, it remained blocked for around three hours when a huge rally near Samboora took place. The rallyists dispersed peacefully.
> 
> Most rallies in the city periphery were Srinagar bound in response to the call of Mr Geelani. He had planned a march towards Eidgah in Srinagar. Asking people to maintain peace and avoid brick-bating, Mr Geelani has said that he would &#8216;reveal&#8217; the details of his meetings with some of the people who had come to meet him in jail. He had asked the government to lift curfew, and withdraw the deployments. Authorities, however, re-arrested him.


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## gogbot

Who's more to blame the soldiers trying to keep order.

Or the Instigators pushing these protesters to impossible situations.

You pretend as if the whole of Kashmir is on the streets , Yet more than 75 &#37; of the populace remains indoors . waiting for normals to return. And the streets to become safe.

Business can't open
Investors run for the bunkers
Job's go un-done 
Wages go Unpaid
Life comes to a stand still
Kashmir comes to a stand still.

All for the sake of a political message at the expense of untold misery.

These mobs are openly trying to look for confrontation.
For the last 30 years this has the status quo ,
Driven on by people who keep telling them now is the time.
When ever the Security personal establish a sense of Normal life , it gets destroyed only so that Indian's can be called barbarians.

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## amit27

these youths dont have jobs thats why they just sit around causing trouble the Indian goverment should provide them with education and job help so they can have a good future.

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## Kompromat

@ Gogbot

Indian soldiers have been firing live rounds on civilians - same was done by Kasab the consequences were same , he was a terrorist according to Indian law & so is Indian Army & police when that principle is applied.

What is the difference between the Kasab and indian barbarians ??
Kashmiris have just proven that they haven't given up on their freedom struggle even when Indian govt has done its best to stop them.

Why International media is not allowed in the valley ?? Is Indian establishment scared that the truth may reveal ?

Why APHC is not allowed to go overseas even to UNO & talk to International Media ??

India is on the wrong side of the history on this matter - you can Kill as many people as you like but one day you would have to **** off.

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## desiman

Sorry your point of view is one sided and you will never understand our point of view. You do the same in the North West territories and its called fighting the "War on terror", and when we do the same its called killing "Innocent civilians",double standards isnt it ? This hardly seems an article as a result of some "Research", so i recommend our fellow researchers spend time on constructive research rather than one sided blame games.

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## Kompromat

desiman said:


> Sorry your point of view is one sided and you will never understand our point of view. You do the same in the North West territories and its called fighting the "War on terror", and when we do the same its called killing "Innocent civilians",double standards isnt it ? This hardly seems an article as a result of some "Research", so i recommend our fellow researchers spend time on constructive research rather than one sided blame games.



We have been trying to Understand your POV for last 60+ years while we watch civilians getting killed by your moronic forces everyday.

What is your view point ?? - What makes you think that you would always be able to hold on to an occupied territory and keep committing crimes there?

As for research - its because of your "No Media policy" in the occupied valley and that is why no news comes out of the wraps.

No international journalists are allowed in the valley so how the hell would you expect us to know what is going on in Kashmir ?

Its a slap in the face of the Indian establishment because they have banned unbiased journalists while they keep reporting "Their version of the story."

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## Kompromat

*5 More Die in Police Firing in Kashmir, Toll Reaches 27 in 5 Days*

Srinagar, Aug 7: The dance of death continues in Indian administered Kashmir and at least five more civilian protestors died in police firing in the region on Tuesday, taking the death toll of civilians since Friday to 27.

The policemen fired on protestors at Qamarwari and Narwara areas in Srinagar, the summer capital of the Indian administered Kashmir, causing death of two protestors. One of the deceased was identified as 18-year old Anees Ahmad Ganai.

*The body of the teenager was carried in a procession towards martyrs graveyard Eidgah. Thousands of people including women defied curfew and participated in the funeral *procession of the outh amidst *chanting of pro-freedom and anti-India slogans. The slogans like, "Go India Go Back," "Blood for Blood" and "We Want Freedom" rented the air.*

The policemen also fired on protestors at Kulgam in South Kashmir and Baramulla in North Kashmir causing the death of three protestors and injuries to many others. At least 15 persons sustained in police action in Frisal and Yatipora, Kulgam areas in South Kashmir.

The police and paramilitary soldiers also fired on protestors at Sheikhpora, Budgam in central Kashmir. Thousands of people chanting pro-freedom, pro-Islamic and anti-India slogans were marching towards the Railway Station, when they were intercepted by policemen, who opened fire on them, causing injuries to five persons. The injured have been hospitalized.

Meanwhile, a civilian, who was critically injured in a powerful blast in a police camp in the Khrew area of Srinagar on Sunday, succumbed to injuries in the hospital on Tuesday morning.

Reports said that a 45-year old man Mohammad Akbar Wani sustained critical head injuries in police firing at Rangwar village in north Kashmir's Baramulla on Tuesday morning. "Akbar was part of a big procession that was marching peacefully and was intercepted by the policemen. The cops lobbed tear smoke shells and fired towards the protestors. One of the bullet hit Akbar in the head and he has been taken to Srinagar hospital for specialized treatment. The doctors attending on him have termed his condition as life threatening," reports said.

Meanwhile, authorities foiled hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Geelani's proposed march to martyrs graveyard Iddgah. Geelani, who was set free by authorities yesterday, had called for "Iddgah March" on Tuesday.

The authorities re-arrested the 8-year old Syed Ali Geelani from a leading hospital in Srinagar, where he was undergoing treatment.

Geelani had planned to take out a march from there to Srinagar's Eidgah Martyrs' Graveyard today. He had called upon youth to maintain peace and not to throw stones on paramilitary forces and march towards Eidgah. He had also appealed the government to lift the curfew today.

Meanwhile, people took to roads at dozens of places across Kashmir and staged massive anti-India demonstration. At many places, the protestors clashed with police and paramilitary soldiers, who lobbed tear smoke canisters and resorted to firing to disperse the crowd protesting against the "killing spree" of cops.

In one of the worst incidents, police and paramilitary CRPF men beat a 7-year boy to death in uptown Batmaloo area of Srinagar on Monday. Witnesses said that police and paramilitary CRPF men caught hold of 7-year old boy Sameer Ahmad Rah son of Fayaz Ahmad Rah at Batmaloo. "They beat him to pulp till he died," they said.

With five deaths on Tuesday, at least 27 persons, mostly youngmen have been killed in police firing in Kashmir since Friday. The killings have increased anger against India and Kashmir government and people across the region have been defying curfew and taking to roads. The region has been on boil since June 11, when a 17-year old boy died in police action in Rajouri Kadal area of Srinaga



5 More Die in Police Firing in Kashmir, Toll Reaches 27 in 5 Days


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## dvk1982

Black Blood said:


> @ Gogbot
> 
> Indian soldiers have been firing live rounds on civilians - same was done by Kasab the consequences were same , he was a terrorist according to Indian law & so is Indian Army & police when that principle is applied.
> 
> What is the difference between the Kasab and indian barbarians ??
> Kashmiris have just proven that they haven't given up on their freedom struggle even when Indian govt has done its best to stop them.
> 
> Why International media is not allowed in the valley ?? Is Indian establishment scared that the truth may reveal ?
> 
> Why APHC is not allowed to go overseas even to UNO & talk to International Media ??
> 
> India is on the wrong side of the history on this matter - you can Kill as many people as you like but one day you would have to **** off.



Our Indian forces will try to restrain all its people with in its line of control if they raise against govt. Thats what a responsible and powerful govt does. It is understandable to not hurt its own citizens but when push comes to shove, it has to raise to the occasion no matter if its kashmiri or andhrite, tamilian or maharastrian..... Nobody can take control except for govt if it has to be. TO ur other questions, it wont be allowed, this is neither an isolated policy nor first of its kind. So no need for this rhetoric. 

And to ur funny yet interesting question on the differences between Kasab and govt , I wud put it this way, Truth and justice is a relative term becoz its not in the laws of nature that truth and justice sud prevail but as civilized we want to have some rules and regulations for our betterment. What I am trying to convey is killing somebody as a soldier or as a murderer is the same thing, though intentions are differenrt, but essentially we killed somebody, so u may compare it to kasab, but we compare it to bringing law and order and not letting any tom and dick to have this slightest flimsical agendas to live in their own parallel world.

Lets get to reality, if these young people get employment and have familities and sth at stake, these things will subside and for that development is required. Thats the only way forward for a better life, Wud gud has happened to those yound people who died for nothing ? once lost its gone forever and doesn;t matter if its for whatnot crap cause... The most important thing is ones life and the opportunity to lead a meaningful one.


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## graphican

gogbot said:


> Who's more to blame the soldiers trying to keep order.
> 
> Or the Instigators pushing these protesters to impossible situations.
> 
> *You pretend as if the whole of Kashmir is on the streets , Yet more than 75 % of the populace remains indoors . waiting for normals to return. And the streets to become safe.*
> 
> Business can't open
> Investors run for the bunkers
> Job's go un-done
> Wages go Unpaid
> Life comes to a stand still
> Kashmir comes to a stand still.
> 
> All for the sake of a political message at the expense of untold misery.
> 
> These mobs are openly trying to look for confrontation.
> For the last 30 years this has the status quo ,
> *Driven on by people who keep telling them now is the time.*
> When ever the Security personal establish a sense of Normal life , it gets destroyed only so that Indian's can be called barbarians.



Have you ever tried to know what was the number of people who went out on the road in Iraq after Sadam Regime was over? I guess not even they were above 25%. Is your point that the remaining 75% were actually supporters of Sadam and were longing Sadam Government to return? Just because you are not ready to accept reality in Kashmir, you are running away from it and packaging situation in a way which is no short illogical and unrealistic and even absurd.

If you think Kashmiris are waiting for some outsiders to tell them "it is the time" and they would start dyeing then again your logics are pretty, pretty nieve. Wakup, Kashmries are Not Indians at heart. You couldn't even turn them Indian using everything you had. What on earth would make you guys see or are you thoughtfully blinded and thoughtfully ignorant on all that? Is being an Indian all about that?

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## Kompromat

ReliefWeb &#187; Document &#187; India: 14 protesters shot dead in escalating Kashmir violence

*I just have a question: Why the civilians are dying why not your Moronic soldiers ?

Doesn't it speak for itself that who is the real culprit ?*

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## graphican

amit27 said:


> t*hese youths dont have jobs thats why they just sit around causing trouble the Indian goverment should provide them with education and job help so they can have a good future.*



They are not Naxals who are fighting against economic injustice. Kashmiris do not identify themselves as Hindustani. there is a difference between being mad because of being unemployed and being mad because of being enslaved. If Kashmiris were angry because of Jobs, there must have been a high degree of street crimes, robbery which is not there. So what's their reason of sacrificing their lives?.. have you ever tried to think out of little shell you have always lived in? They want FREEDOM. They don't hold Pakistani Flag because they hope Pakistan would get them that "job" which in your theory they are dying for.


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## karan.1970

Black Blood said:


> We have been trying to Understand your POV for last 60+ years while we watch civilians getting killed by your moronic forces everyday.


If you cant get it in 60 years, speaks of your lack of comprehension. Doesnt it??



Black Blood said:


> What is your view point ?? - What makes you think that you would always be able to hold on to an occupied territory and keep committing crimes there?


What makes you think that Pakistan will not break up into smaller countries like a Baloch Nation, Sindh Nation, Punjab etc and that terrorists will not capture the NWFP and may be Islamabad. Something similar makes us believe that Jammu and Kashmir will continue to be a part of India



Black Blood said:


> As for research - its because of your "No Media policy" in the occupied valley and that is why no news comes out of the wraps.
> 
> No international journalists are allowed in the valley so how the hell would you expect us to know what is going on in Kashmir ?


Why didnt Pakistan allow international journalists while it was bombing its own citizens along with terrorists in the NWFP region.??




Black Blood said:


> Its a slap in the face of the Indian establishment because they have banned unbiased journalists while they keep reporting "Their version of the story."



Slap is what Cameron delivered from India. A misguided Pakistani ranting on PDF does not have the stature to slap Indian establishmen..

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## desiman

Black Blood said:


> We have been trying to Understand your POV for last 60+ years while we watch civilians getting killed by your moronic forces everyday.
> 
> What is your view point ?? - What makes you think that you would always be able to hold on to an occupied territory and keep committing crimes there?
> 
> As for research - its because of your "No Media policy" in the occupied valley and that is why no news comes out of the wraps.
> 
> No international journalists are allowed in the valley so how the hell would you expect us to know what is going on in Kashmir ?
> 
> Its a slap in the face of the Indian establishment because they have banned unbiased journalists while they keep reporting "Their version of the story."




Sorry but your point of view is biased to start with. Kashmir is an integral part of India so Pakistan can literally forget it. It will always stay with us and any attempts to take it from us will only lead you know what. Now down to the point, Pakistan has spread terrorism in the valley in an attempt to push India away and because of that we have to maintain a sizeable presence of the Military in the region. I dont know where your getting all this crap from that no international journalist are allowed there as the BBC recently did a whole documentary on the region and Kashmir is always on the spotlight of the media. 

Indian Kashmir is one of the most progressive regions in India and its state is 10 times better than that of Pakistan occupied Kashmir which is in shambles. Sorry but the world is also sick of you rant now on Kashmir and the world media is waking up to the fact that Pakistan uses terror as a state policy. Recent comments by US and UK official have proved that the double game Pakistan is playing is now being noticed by the international community and it wont be too long that the world really understand what India has been saying for the last 60 years. So leave Kashmir alone and focus on your own problems. No matter how much you cry, Kashmir is staying with India, period.

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## desiman

Black Blood said:


> ReliefWeb » Document » India: 14 protesters shot dead in escalating Kashmir violence
> 
> *I just have a question: Why the civilians are dying why not your Moronic soldiers ?
> 
> Doesn't it speak for itself that who is the real culprit ?*



they throw stones at the police, light up police stations, blow up ammunition depots, sorry these are not civilians and they will be killed. Destroying state property is a crime and action will be taken against the criminals. Well Done to the Indian army. Please ask the same question to the Pakistani army which bomb innocent civilians because Uncle Sam wants them to, very sad.

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## whocares

should be avoided. even if it costs a lot of money for the right equipment and training in non lethal mob control methods.


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

The average disappearance rate is around 5 people per day in Indian occupied areas. Pakistan needs to take such cases as attacks on its citizens and make a case for war.


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## somya

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> The average disappearance rate is around 5 people per day in Indian occupied areas. Pakistan needs to take such cases as attacks on its citizens and make a case for war.



Yeah I can feel your emotion and share it too. 

But meanwhile please provide security to our brothers in Karachi who left India in 1947. In one thread there are very violent coomments being posted against them.

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## whocares

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> The average disappearance rate is around 5 people per day in Indian occupied areas. Pakistan needs to take such cases as attacks on its citizens and make a case for war.



make a case for war and?


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

Karachi politics is in the hands of a few and they are run like the football club hooligan crowds of Europe, except they are more on the criminal side. I do not want to get involved in their local politics as I have never lived there. But I do know all about Indian occupied Kashmir and believe me the people there are afraid for their children, those who are not Sikh or Hindu are often abused.


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## graphican

whocares said:


> make a case for war and?



And increase 5 folds the finance of ISI. HEHEHE..


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## Spitfighter

Order will be restored in Kashmir. No matter how hard foreign agents try to cultivate an atmosphere of chaos, India will succeed just as it has for the last 6 decades. 

PS: Don't you guys have enough on your plate at the moment? We've all been over Kashmir countless times on this forum, what's the point of regurgitating the same arguments over and over again?

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## whocares

graphican said:


> And increase 5 folds the finance of ISI. HEHEHE..



sounds like a smart way to get thousands of more kashmiris killed.


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## Awesome

gogbot said:


> Who's more to blame the soldiers trying to keep order.
> 
> Or the Instigators pushing these protesters to impossible situations.
> 
> You pretend as if the whole of Kashmir is on the streets , Yet more than 75 &#37; of the populace remains indoors . waiting for normals to return. And the streets to become safe.
> 
> Business can't open
> Investors run for the bunkers
> Job's go un-done
> Wages go Unpaid
> Life comes to a stand still
> Kashmir comes to a stand still.
> 
> All for the sake of a political message at the expense of untold misery.
> 
> These mobs are openly trying to look for confrontation.
> For the last 30 years this has the status quo ,
> Driven on by people who keep telling them now is the time.
> When ever the Security personal establish a sense of Normal life , it gets destroyed only so that Indian's can be called barbarians.


Look the honorable thing for the Indian soldiers is to either let the Kashmiris beat them up or leave Kashmir.

So yeah, its always India's fault in Kashmir. The Kashmiris have a right to protest the Indians don't have a right to show any objection to it.

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## Spitfighter

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> I do not want to get involved in their local politics as I have never lived there.



So as a Pakistani, you wouldn't want to comment on Karachi simply because you've never lived there. Fair enough. 



> *But I do know all about Indian occupied Kashmir *



Of course you do, with your telepathic abilities and all. 

Where in Kashmir are you now (mentally of course)?? 



> and *believe me* the people there are afraid for their children, those who are not Sikh or Hindu are often abused.



You had me at 'I know all about Kashmir'. 

Buddy, don't post just for the heck of it. You don't think it'd be right to comment about a Pakistani city that you've probably visited and here you are telling us about our own country?

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## Spitfighter

Asim Aquil said:


> Look the honorable thing for the Indian soldiers is to either let the Kashmiris beat them up or leave Kashmir.



That makes absolutely no sense, but sure, whatever floats your boat.



> So yeah,* its always India's fault in Kashmir*. The Kashmiris have a right to protest the Indians don't have a right to show any objection to it.



From the Pakistani perspective maybe. Fortunately that doesn't count on our side of the border.

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## karan.1970

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> The average disappearance rate is around 5 people per day in Indian occupied areas. Pakistan needs to take such cases as attacks on its citizens and make a *case for war*.



you are very welcome..

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## graphican

whocares said:


> sounds like a smart way to get thousands of more kashmiris killed.



OR Indian Soldiers Killed..We are talking of I S I . 
By the way, Pakistan is not actively supporting Kashmiris anymore. The present rise of Kashmir is internal wave and that is also acknowledged by the Independent Analysts. 

Why are you reluctant to admit Kashmiris hate India and want liberation from its flag. You can say we are in power and wouldn't let those Kashmiris get what they are looking for but at-least admit the truth. Are you so internally weak that even truth is getting you guys shivers?


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## graphican

karan.1970 said:


> you are very welcome..



Thanks. Please see the game in Eastern India. See you there.


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## jbond197

graphican said:


> OR Indian Soldiers Killed..We are talking of I S I .


Ask ISI to stop suicide attacks happening on and off across Pakistan. seems like they are not doing good job against cave dwellers. 



> By the way, Pakistan is not actively supporting Kashmiris anymore. The present rise of Kashmir is internal wave and that is also acknowledged by the Independent Analysts.


Sorry to break ur heart but Pakistan is and the people on the streets are the people of Geelani who is well known Pakistani piyada(puppet) in Kashmir. 




> Why are you reluctant to admit Kashmiris hate India and want liberation from its flag. You can say we are in power and wouldn't let those Kashmiris get what they are looking for but at-least admit the truth. *Are you so internally weak that even truth is getting you guys shiver?*



 Wake up man!! How did you find out that we are shivring? come on some sort of satelite vision you guys have

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## jbond197

graphican said:


> Thanks. Please see the game in Eastern India. See you there.



Wait a second. We are not holding any games in East India. are you planning to visit the place? Beware when you land there don't tell anyone where u r from and what u think about India? A piece of advice. will be good for you..

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## deepak75

Black Blood said:


> @ Gogbot
> 
> Indian soldiers have been firing live rounds on civilians - same was done by Kasab the consequences were same , he was a terrorist according to Indian law & so is Indian Army & police when that principle is applied.
> 
> What is the difference between the Kasab and indian barbarians ??
> Kashmiris have just proven that they haven't given up on their freedom struggle even when Indian govt has done its best to stop them.



Yeah but the children and women and men on the street and the stations and the hotels were not throwing stones on Kasab. Also the Indian soldeirs are shooting only in the direst situations in self defence and while maintaing law and order. On top, the Indian government is not conniving against the Kashmiris as the Pakistani Arrmy and ISI did in case of Mumbai - Kasab + also several others.

So get the "principles?" right please.



Black Blood said:


> Why International media is not allowed in the valley ?? Is Indian establishment scared that the truth may reveal ?



It is India's internal matter and no business of Pakistan. That is accepted by the world by the mere fact that there is no support for Pakistan in their claims fantasy anymore. Please get updated. I think better care more about the flood victims and try to make some donations for their relief. There is also the matter of thinking about the Balochistan atrocities by Pakistan Army. While at it, also worry about the over 60 deaths over last two days in Karachi and Hyderabad (not dakkhhan - remember something out of the Mumbai tapes??) and of course I am sure if there is some left then your Pakistan's international terror sponsor role should keep you busy there.



Black Blood said:


> Why APHC is not allowed to go overseas even to UNO & talk to International Media ??



And who told you that. Hurriyat is regularly travelling to Pakistan even and all the voilence in the valley is anyway directly being controlled by the ISI via Geelani and his ilk. So that position of yours also will be soon out in the open as other positions are no more a secret.



Black Blood said:


> India is on the wrong side of the history on this matter - you can Kill as many people as you like but one day you would have to **** off.



Stop for a moment and try to see where Pakistan stands..... do you really think that you can even see what is the right side of history???? Even as you use expletives, I can just pity your situation because I canot get in myself that hatred that you have been indoctrinated with..... but by all means, continue with your wet dream and even by later today going by the law of probabilities, you will read something very nice about Pakistan. All the best.

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## ejaz007

desiman said:


> Sorry your point of view is one sided and you will never understand our point of view. You do the same in the North West territories and its called fighting the "War on terror", and when we do the same its called killing "Innocent civilians",double standards isnt it ? This hardly seems an article as a result of some "Research", so i recommend our fellow researchers spend time on constructive research rather than one sided blame games.



Stop writing nonsense. Pakistan Army is fighting a well armed group of people who wish to implement their agenda by the force of gun. People of the area are supporting army not demonstrating against them. Don't compare the two scenarios.

Your army is killing innocent stone throwers. Guess your army does not have anything else to do rather than kill unarmed people. Well one can not blame them when they face armed men they are usually found 100 miles away.

By the way have you ever wondered the people your brave army is killing are not Indian citizens and one day you might have to face war crimes tribunal for your actions.


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## amit27

graphican said:


> They are not Naxals who are fighting against economic injustice. Kashmiris do not identify themselves as Hindustani. there is a difference between being mad because of being unemployed and being mad because of being enslaved. If Kashmiris were angry because of Jobs, there must have been a high degree of street crimes, robbery which is not there. So what's their reason of sacrificing their lives?.. have you ever tried to think out of little shell you have always lived in? They want FREEDOM. They don't hold Pakistani Flag because they hope Pakistan would get them that "job" which in your theory they are dying for.




Your wrong recent studies show that kashmiri people want peace, jobs and security like any human being. Some of these youths are hell bent on causing trouble as they have nothing to look forward to. Its a classic cry for help but instead the Indian goverment is using aggressive techniques which will not work, crowd control can be easily done with rubber bullets and water guns I dont know why the Indian army dont move towards these methods.


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## somya

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> FreekiN dear, there are many other families with very similar stories.


Hm... Ever tried to listen stories of displaced Kashmiri Pandits.


> Sri Nagar in particular is one area where the Kashmiri ''street'' is literally against (they HATE) the indian occupation.


Not true last year I was there. I enjoyed hospitality there.


> indians will try to fudge numbers, present half-truths (at best), cite a few flawed ''polls'' here and there, bring up sham (scam?) elections and claim that Kashmiris will opt for india


Yes Indians are expert and Pakistanis are innocent. I believe it.


> this is far from reality in the Muslim majority disputed territory...FARRRR from it.


Came to religion again. cant live witout opium.


> and we are seeing it everyday......how many Kashmiris did occupying forces of the neighbour country kill?
> 
> 
> Over 50. *Mostly unarmed youth who were simply protesting.*


and security forces burned goverment buildings. add it too.


> recurring pattern. Kind of like how after this post, some hindustany will mention Baluchistan which isnt even a similar issue as it isnt disputed territory; and only a small fraction of the population is actually demanding ''independence''


no I dont play this sort of game.


> in Kashmir, the calls for it can be vociferously heard.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> more power to your family, Freekin, and to others like yours that have endured the senseless violence and heavy handedness of the occupation of Kashmir by this *God-damned neighbour* country of ours


no comments.


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## karan.1970

graphican said:


> Thanks. Please see the game in Eastern India. See you there.



Eastern India.. Dont know what you are talking of.. The only game in the East i remember is the East Pakistan.. Oops.. Bangladesh...

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## karan.1970

graphican said:


> OR Indian Soldiers Killed..We are talking of I S I .
> By the way, Pakistan is not actively supporting Kashmiris anymore. The present rise of Kashmir is internal wave and that is also acknowledged by the Independent Analysts.
> 
> *Why are you reluctant to admit Kashmiris hate India and want liberation from its flag. You can say we are in power and wouldn't let those Kashmiris get what they are looking for but at-least admit the truth*. Are you so internally weak that even truth is getting you guys shivers?



None of the bold part in your post is dependent on the UN resolution since hatered does not look for UN permission. In the same spirit, will you also admit the same thing about Balochis and Sindhis to begin with about their want of separation from Pakistan..>???

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## billi

Black Blood said:


> @ Gogbot
> 
> Indian soldiers have been firing live rounds on civilians - same was done by Kasab the consequences were same , he was a terrorist according to Indian law & so is Indian Army & police when that principle is applied.
> 
> *What is the difference between the Kasab and indian barbarians ??*Kashmiris have just proven that they haven't given up on their freedom struggle even when Indian govt has done its best to stop them.
> 
> Why International media is not allowed in the valley ?? Is Indian establishment scared that the truth may reveal ?
> 
> Why APHC is not allowed to go overseas even to UNO & talk to International Media ??
> 
> India is on the wrong side of the history on this matter - you can Kill as many people as you like but one day you would have to **** off.




Did the civilians that Kasab killed throw stones at him? thats the differnce.
And the Indian 'barbarians' are protecting us from the barbarians and savages from across the border.


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## deepak75

ejaz007 said:


> Stop writing nonsense. Pakistan Army is fighting a well armed group of people who wish to implement their agenda by the force of gun. People of the area are supporting army not demonstrating against them. Don't compare the two scenarios.
> 
> *Your army is killing innocent stone throwers. Guess your army does not have anything else to do rather than kill unarmed people. Well one can not blame them when they face armed men they are usually found 100 miles away.*
> 
> 
> By the way have you ever wondered the people your brave army is killing are not Indian citizens and one day you might have to face war crimes tribunal for your actions.



Now what would make you say that? Speciall coming from the fine, peace loving, non terrorism sponsoring nation of Pakistan....

Have you not heard of the artillery guns that Pakistani Army is bravely using against the Taliban and the BLA? Or for that matter of the Jets that are pouding Taliban and BLA positions from several miles in the Air? My my..... I think that is what you think is brave. Using max firepower against your own countrymen? Or are they not and Pakistan will be later tried for war crimes? And what about the enmasse surrenders by the brave and heroic Pakistani Army troops. Ummmm...... I think I have seen some videos of them on Youtube. Can you please help me in posting them here by telling me how to post links of videos on this forum? I really want to help you in understanding how brave pakistan army is totally oxymoronic idea in the parlance of this particular discussion......

Now, just to correct your selective amnesia(??), Indian Army uses nothing but small arms against the terrorists that your ISI sends across our border. And that shows the kind of restraint that Indian Army shows while tackeling that menace. And that can happen only in direct proximity fighting. Hell, IA is not even using helicopters for this and we all know the craving that your Army has for the free helicopters and aid for them from US and the ISAF.

So please give that a break and think more about what will happen today when Prime Minister Cameron will have a discussion (??) with President Zardari.

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## super_man

It is high time JK police should learn water boarding technique immediately.


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## chachachoudhary

graphican said:


> They are not Naxals who are fighting against economic injustice. Kashmiris do not identify themselves as Hindustani. there is a difference between being mad because of being unemployed and being mad because of being enslaved. If Kashmiris were angry because of Jobs, there must have been a high degree of street crimes, robbery which is not there. So what's their reason of sacrificing their lives?.. have you ever tried to think out of little shell you have always lived in? They want FREEDOM. They don't hold Pakistani Flag because they hope Pakistan would get them that "job" which in your theory they are dying for.



People of india and GOI has amply made it clear that territorial integrity of india cannot be compromised at any cost. Indian constitution does not allow compromising territorial integrity of any part of india under any circumstances. There are a few people in the valley who think that by resorting to violence and arousing passions and chest beating they can gather enough international pressure and india may consider some "autonomy" to Kashmir valley, but it should be made known to these rabble-rousers that indian state is ready to go to "any extent" and only way forward for any and all in the valley is peace and allegiance to india. Kashmir valley does not belong to any group of people, but it belongs to entire india.

However, india may consider requesting Pakistan to give citizenship to those kashmiri people who do not want to live in india. We are ready to give them a ceremonial farewell so that the rest of the valley can live peacefully.

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## Awesome

Indians cannot justify killing Kashmiris just because they are beating them up. Kashmiris have been invaded and are being killed in PROVEN faked encounters. By a pure moral stand point it is within the rights of Kashmiris to kill their Indian occupiers but the Indian occupiers are not within their rights to kill them back - this is not self-defence on the part of the Indians but on the Kashmiris.

The honorable thing for the Indians to do is to shut up, sit tight and get killed.

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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> Indians cannot justify killing Kashmiris just because they are beating them up. Kashmiris have been invaded and are being killed in PROVEN faked encounters. By a pure moral stand point it is within the rights of Kashmiris to kill their Indian occupiers but the Indian occupiers are not within their rights to kill them back - this is not self-defence on the part of the Indians but on the Kashmiris.
> 
> The honorable thing for the Indians to do is to shut up, sit tight and get killed.



Hey but by your definition, we are occupiers and hence work outside the limitations of rights etc.. So why bother for doing the honorable thing.. Might as well do the practical thing..

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## super_man

Asim Aquil said:


> Indians cannot justify killing Kashmiris just because they are beating them up. Kashmiris have been invaded and are being killed in PROVEN faked encounters. By a pure moral stand point it is within the rights of Kashmiris to kill their Indian occupiers but the Indian occupiers are not within their rights to kill them back - this is not self-defence on the part of the Indians but on the Kashmiris.
> 
> The honorable thing for the Indians to do is to shut up, sit tight and get killed.



ok as you say. I think you forgot that you are just mod for this site not for jk.

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## navtrek

A little correction buddy those are Cops not Soldiers. Why do people add extra masala to the heading of the thread ? 

Why why why


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## chachachoudhary

Asim Aquil said:


> Indians cannot justify killing Kashmiris just because they are beating them up. Kashmiris have been invaded and are being killed in PROVEN faked encounters. By a pure moral stand point it is within the rights of Kashmiris to kill their Indian occupiers but the Indian occupiers are not within their rights to kill them back - this is not self-defence on the part of the Indians but on the Kashmiris.
> 
> The honorable thing for the Indians to do is to shut up, sit tight and get killed.



Keep drumming. 

Jai baba barfani. Jai Amarnath.


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## Amit12

navtrek said:


> A little correction buddy those are Cops not Soldiers. Why do people add extra masala to the heading of the thread ?
> 
> Why why why



how can they admit that ............ in J&K police 70% are kashmiri muslim


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## deepak75

Asim Aquil said:


> Indians cannot justify killing Kashmiris just because they are beating them up. Kashmiris have been invaded and are being killed in PROVEN faked encounters. By a pure moral stand point it is within the rights of Kashmiris to kill their Indian occupiers but the Indian occupiers are not within their rights to kill them back - this is not self-defence on the part of the Indians but on the Kashmiris.
> 
> The honorable thing for the Indians to do is to shut up, sit tight and get killed.



Actually not Sir.

Indian security forces when controlling law and order in any part of India is our own business exactly like what is happening in Kashmir is our business. In fact, I am sure that you will soon see the real goons behind the 200 rupees = 5 stone throwers getting the heat.

And about the honor, we saw a little bit of that when complete Pakistan Army units and convoys were surrendering enmasse to Taliban and then getting their throats slit. I have seen some videos. You could find on the internet but I would recommend that you see only if you have the stomach for extreme gore.

So for us, Honor for Army is ensuring that the peace prevails and no one is allwed to hijack the will of the people of our country. And the will of the people was what is evident regularly in our state and national Parliamentary elections.

And about the morality, even though I am sure that you are well meaning, but I will yet pass your advise Sir. Not because it is something coming from you..... but because in the current parlance, we see the kind of morality in Pakistan. We just saw it last days in several instances....


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## Amit12

Asim Aquil said:


> Indians cannot justify killing Kashmiris just because they are beating them up. Kashmiris have been invaded and are being killed in PROVEN faked encounters. By a pure moral stand point it is within the rights of Kashmiris to kill their Indian occupiers but the Indian occupiers are not within their rights to kill them back - this is not self-defence on the part of the Indians but on the Kashmiris.
> 
> *The honorable thing for the Indians to do is to shut up, sit tight and get killed*.



Here honorable people not firing bullets from behind the crowd ....not attack on police station ..... if they do that so they are not honorable .....m talking about India not about our neighbors


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## EjazR

*Violence not cast in stone - Hindustan Times*

Kashmiris feel deserted by their representatives, who disappear during disturbances, leaving them to the mercy of god or in the hands of those who have vested interests in prolonging conflicts. Recently, we also heard of certain leaders, pretending to be the representatives of the Union government, issuing proactive statements, which have contributed to the crises. The imposition of curfews to tackle crises has failed, and youngsters brought up in these years of turmoil have become hostile to the system.

The administration needs to deal with the youth humanely. The local police must be used to control mob situations and the deployment of Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) personnel should be the last option. Members of Legislative Assembly, along with senior citizens, should be involved to pacify people. Local women can also play a vital role, but they must be accorded respect by the administration.

We have seen all parties blaming each other. On most occasions, misunderstandings are created by certain officials, the police and intelligence operatives for their own ends. The state government should deal firmly with such behaviour. Politicians haven't been completely honest in their utterances on the relations between Kashmir and the Centre. They either affirm or backtrack on accords, depending on political convenience. Recently, the National Conference (NC) and the People's Democratic Party (PDP) raised the Kashmir Resolution again, only to further confuse people. Our parties carry three flags in their pockets: one of India, one of Pakistan and one of Kashmir. Calls for autonomy, self-rule and human rights are interchangeable.

There are no officially recognised student elections in Kashmir and it is hard to blame students for the present conflict. They only reflect the despair, caused by the failure of a consensual discourse among their elders. The hopelessness and frequent human rights disasters cause some students to raise extremist slogans. Till date, schoolchildren are being deprived of their childhood. Both rulers and militants are responsible for this tragic predicament in Kashmir. Also, Pakistan has added fuel to the fire through its representatives.

The Union government has placed agents in every administrative structure. These people have muddied the waters. Our parties maintain lobbies at the Centre that work for narrow political gains. *I propose the installation of a coalition government, tasked with producing a resolution on Kashmiri aspirations. A joint parliamentary team should visit the Valley and address everyone from separatists to students to minorities. The government, with the Centre's backing, should encourage the formation of a crisis management team', which should work towards reconciliation without letting local officials interfere in the process.

The state government claims that the number of active militants has declined. I suggest that the Armed Forces (Special Protection) Act (AFSPA) should be replaced with a milder law. This will enable people to go about their daily lives and give them a ray of hope. It will indicate that the system is serious about settling outstanding political issues.

The Valley's minorities can play a vital role in the dialogue process. As a non-migrant Kashmiri Pandit, who has lived in downtown Srinagar throughout the troubled times but is dejected by our malfunctioning government, I have two points to make: first, the minorities are safe and enjoy cordial relations with Kashmiri Muslims. The Amarnath Yatra is taking place smoothly and the rest of India need not worry about the yatris. Second is a request to the media to be fair-minded and compassionate while reporting on Kashmir. The Kashmiri Pandit Sangharsh Samiti interacts with different shades of opinion. We try to keep alive a conversation for the re-emergence of a plural society. We want sanity to prevail in all of Kashmir.*

_Sanjay Tickoo is President of the Srinagar-based Kashmiri Pandit Sangharsh Samiti. The views expressed by the author are personal._


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## anathema

ejaz007 said:


> Stop writing nonsense. Pakistan Army is fighting a well armed group of * people who wish to implement their agenda by the force of gun. People of the area are supporting army not demonstrating against them*. Don't compare the two scenarios.



Says who ? Pakistani Army is fighting Taliban -- and this might well be the people who were actually residing in the area and who followed the radical Islam ideology. Not all People that Pakistani Army are outsiders -- after all the name of the Taliban itself is TTP (Tehreek 'E' Taliban Pakistan)..Goes to show that TTP didnt agree with the state and the state is now crushing them; why should the GoI behave any differently ? 
There is a sizeable majority of Indian people in Kashmir who choose to stay away from all this BS. Hypocrisy don't you think ?




ejaz007 said:


> *Your army is killing innocent stone throwers. Guess your army does not have anything else to do rather than kill unarmed people.* Well one can not blame them when they face armed men they are usually found 100 miles away.



And what would you do when stone throwers are destroying government property -- blowing up ammunition dump , etc ? In betn why do you think stone throwing is unarmed ? Make no mistake -- a neighbour throws stones at your house and you will make sure you his **** out ! Government has issued shoot at sight orders -- it is peoples responsibility to hider that or choose to waste their lives away -- no need to cry horse over it. These innocent people are used as canon fodder by people sitting across border to propagate their own selfish agenda...Pakistan has trying to raise or do something about Kashmir for 60 years -- This pre-occupation of muslim brotherhood has led pakistan to where they are ! A breeding ground of terror -- which even Global leaders are begining to point out --- Its time they put their house in order or just be prepared to get washed away in global race.



ejaz007 said:


> By the way have you ever wondered the people your brave army is killing* are not Indian citizens *and one day you might have to face war crimes tribunal for your actions.




Hoping that you consider me a reliable poster ! ... All my life -- i have been taught Kashmiri's are Indians --- just as Keralites or Tamilians or Punajbi's or Gujratis or Mah or etc are Indians..
People residing in Kashmir are indians with Indian passports -- who has the option of working anywhere in India, in any firm -- Hell they get a special consideration in all states if they opt to study in a school in that state -- Courtesy GoI!!!! People residing in Kashmir -- If they ever come to US -- they will be coming on Indian passport -- and not on Kashmiri Passport...Please keep this war crime BS to yourself !


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## gubbi

Asim Aquil said:


> Indians cannot justify killing Kashmiris just because they are beating them up. *Kashmiris have been invaded* and are being killed in PROVEN faked encounters. By a pure moral stand point it is within the rights of Kashmiris to kill their Indian occupiers but the Indian occupiers are not within their rights to kill them back - this is not self-defence on the part of the Indians but on the Kashmiris.


Who invaded who? Pakistan, when it first came into existence in 1947, instead of setting its own house in order, invaded the then independent state of Kashmir on a flimsy pretext, and you blame India for all the ills? ROFLOCOPTER! Delusions, delusions, delusions and nothing but delusions, my friend!
Why dont you guys set your own house in order first?


> The honorable thing for the Indians to do is to shut up, sit tight and get killed.


Nuts! We are not going to become martyrs, lol. hmn hmn, no. We shall make sure that honor is bestowed upon the opposing basterd to become a martyr for his/her ideology. Happy martyrdom to whoever wants to disturb normalcy in Kashmir.

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## anathema

Asim Aquil said:


> Kashmiris have been invaded and are being killed in PROVEN faked encounters.



Fake encounters doesnt happen only in Kashmir -- They happen and the origin is in Mumbai -- Police do pick up notorious criminals and bump them off to clean the scum -- why ? Because our judiciary process sucks , and the criminals with money/circumstances get away or it just takes long time...why should Kashmir be any different ? People who are on the wrong side of the law -- better fear rather than smirk that judiciary wont do **** to them.
Last i heard Pak Army is also adopting a similar approach in FATA -- what was the story about the people being executed and bodies floating in rivers ?



Asim Aquil said:


> By a pure moral stand point it is within the rights of Kashmiris to kill their Indian occupiers but the Indian occupiers are not within their rights to kill them back - this is not self-defence on the part of the Indians but on the Kashmiris.



If moral had been so important -- USA would have never invaded Iraq..this is 21st century -- apply 21st century principles -- only interests matter -- If GoI feels that their interests are compromised , it will do anything to wrestle it back. If stone throwers feel that they will get away with doing this -- then they are playing with their lives. Further government has issued a shoot at sight orders -- people defying this -- has to be shoot at sight -- This is a MORAL that armed forces apply !




Asim Aquil said:


> The honorable thing for the Indians to do is to shut up, sit tight and get killed.



The honorable thing for Pakistanis to do this (after 60 years and still counting) is to forget about Kashmir ! And be in peace ! It will help you guys in the long run !

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## Awesome

karan.1970 said:


> Hey but by your definition, we are occupiers and hence work outside the limitations of rights etc.. So why bother for doing the honorable thing.. Might as well do the practical thing..


That's correct and thats probably what you should be saying, not that "Oh they are pelting us so we are forced to kill them. No sir, don't jerk us around, you're not forced to kill them. You can up and leave from Kashmir and no one will kill you.

In this whole scenario, you drew first blood by occupying Kashmir and from there on it's within Kashmiris' rights to do anything to you and they will be on the right and you will be on the wrong.

They are killing the villains of this story, they are on the right.

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## gurjot

Asim Aquil said:


> That's correct and thats probably what you should be saying, not that "Oh they are pelting us so we are forced to kill them. No sir, don't jerk us around, you're not forced to kill them. You can up and leave from Kashmir and no one will kill you.
> 
> In this whole scenario, you drew first blood by occupying Kashmir and from there on it's within Kashmiris' rights to do anything to you and they will be on the right and you will be on the wrong.
> 
> They are killing the villains of this story, they are on the right.



india will not let it's integrity down.they will have to understand this.

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## Amit12

gurjot said:


> india will not let it's integrity down.they will have to understand this.



People of J&K know that but terrorist dnt want that

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## Awesome

gurjot said:


> india will not let it's integrity down.they will have to understand this.


Human beings will never relent on their fight for freedom - even God didn't bother fighting us on that.


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## gubbi

Asim Aquil said:


> In this whole scenario, *you drew first blood *by occupying Kashmir and from there on it's within Kashmiris' rights to do anything to you and they will be on the right and you will be on the wrong.


based on history taught in Pakistani schools or rhetoric by Pakistani hawks? Oh yeah. An alternate universe does exist!


> They are killing the villains of this story, they are on the right.


Lol, whoz doing the killing and whoz dying there? Yes, the villians are getting killed. Right!

Come what may, Pakistan is never going to get Kashmir. Pakistan is neither in a position to get it nor can it afford to run the state. Hell, you cannot even run your own country smoothly or exercise the govt.'s writ in all the areas claimed. How are you going to run Kashmir?



Asim Aquil said:


> Human beings will never relent on their fight for freedom - even God didn't bother fighting us on that.


lol, He/She just lets humans kill each other in His/Her name or message all the while apparently enjoying gargleblasters at the "restaurant at the end of the universe!"

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## gogbot

Black Blood said:


> We have been trying to Understand your POV for last 60+ years while we watch civilians getting killed by your moronic forces everyday.
> 
> What is your view point ?? - What makes you think that you would always be able to hold on to an occupied territory and keep committing crimes there?
> 
> As for research - its because of your "No Media policy" in the occupied valley and that is why no news comes out of the wraps.
> 
> No international journalists are allowed in the valley so how the hell would you expect us to know what is going on in Kashmir ?
> 
> Its a slap in the face of the Indian establishment because they have banned unbiased journalists while they keep reporting "Their version of the story."



*I hate to make a point of any dead.
*

But tell me how many are dead in Karachi.

You have given me 45 dead in Over a month.

Yet in a very short span of time many more died in Karachi.

Yet you make comments like Indian barbarity.

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## gurjot

Asim Aquil said:


> Human beings will never relent on their fight for freedom - even God didn't bother fighting us on that.



watever god wants,it will be done through human beings.wat will u say abt millions of iraqis,afghans,even inside pak many ppl are killed due to terror.btw u also have soft issues like baluchistan.it means they shud continue their fight against pak.


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## gurjot

gogbot said:


> *I hate to make a point of any dead.
> *
> 
> But tell me how many are dead in Karachi.
> 
> You have given me 45 dead in Over a month.
> 
> Yet in a very short span of time many more died in Karachi.
> 
> Yet you make comments like Indian barbarity.



they wont c the difference here.they c with only one eye.

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## Pride

We never want our fellow civilians are dead but maintaining law and order is very difficult when rioters are throwing stones and petrol bombs, separatists are flaming the people, Neighbours are sending insurgents as freedom fighters.


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## graphican

jbond197 said:


> *Ask ISI to stop suicide attacks happening on and off across Pakistan. seems like they are not doing good job against cave dwellers. *



Sucidal Attacks expression of desperation are result of the "hit" which Taliban received from PA. Surely suicidal attack hurt but thats reaction of a cat that is cornered.. now I expect you at least understand what is purpose and job of a secret service and what not. Even if they "remain fail" to stop these terrorist attacks, they have been successful in exciting millions of Kashmirs and get down USA and NATO and previously USSR down to its knees. So they are pretty well doing what is their job. And since Indian sides cannot stop talking about them, it says how good they at their job. Hehe.. 



jbond197 said:


> *
> Sorry to break ur heart but Pakistan is and the people on the streets are the people of Geelani who is well known Pakistani piyada(puppet) in Kashmir.*



So 700,000 soldiers and every resource you had remain to stop one "puppet" man leading the millions and driving them on the roads? Gillani is Pakistani for sure, every Kashmiri is Pakistani under the occupation of India.



jbond197 said:


> *
> Wake up man!! How did you find out that we are shivring? come on some sort of satelite vision you guys have *


*

Only if you could read the last paragraph and understand what it is saying.. replying to you must have been a lot purposeful. Try again.*


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## idune

India claim to be "secular" and "democratic" yet playing and implementing aggressor and occupational role in Kashmir. No amount of indians bs can alter that.

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## igoogle

idune said:


> India claim to be "secular" and "democratic" yet playing and implementing aggressor and occupational role in Kashmir. No amount of indians bs can alter that.



So according to you Being Secular and A Democratic Nation India should allow people to Burn Government offices.....Throw stones at Government employees.....Please try and do same thin in your country and see what happens then.


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## idune

igoogle said:


> So according to you Being Secular and A Democratic Nation India should allow people to Burn Government offices.....Throw stones at Government employees.....Please try and do same thin in your country and see what happens then.



People come to street protest and throw stone when indian govt office is used for occupation and repression. Besides demonstration is democratic right.

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## jha

`Good riddance...

Any one who resorts to violence to challenge the writ of state and hence trying to disrupt the normal functioning and creating trouble for PEACE LOVING PATRIOTIC citizen of india deserve to be punished ...and in extreme circumstances extreme measures are to be taken...

KIT and OUT..

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## igoogle

idune said:


> People come to street protest and throw stone when indian govt office is used for occupation and repression. Besides demoonstration is democratic right.



When protesters turn rioters.....Government agencies are bound to take action....thats a globally accepted practice.

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## jha

idune said:


> People come to street protest and throw stone when indian govt office is used for occupation and repression. Besides demoonstration is democratic right.



So, you have shifted your attention from your own struggle of freedom from our stooges or, have joined anti-india movement ...?
in any case we dont give a damn...

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## Pride

idune said:


> People come to street protest and throw stone when indian govt office is used for occupation and repression. Besides demoonstration is democratic right.



Demonstration is their right but not with gun, swords, lathis, stones, petrol bombs. We allow their human and democratic right that is why there are separatists get their chance for public speaking and allow them to participate in our democratic elections.


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## idune

jha said:


> So, you have shifted your attention from your own struggle of freedom from our stooges or, have joined anti-india movement ...?
> in any case we dont give a damn...



I dont think Kashmiris dont give a damm what indians thinks, they are struggling for what is rightfully their.


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## Pride

jha said:


> So, you have shifted your attention from your own struggle of freedom from our stooges or, have joined anti-india movement ...?
> in any case we dont give a damn...



Leave it jha bro, They even think that BSF kills BDs just for sake of fun or for gun firing test.


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## 0.o

Why is it worrying Pakistan?
Is pakistan an international peace organization?
Or is it soo humanitarian to worry for them?
I doubt,cuz then 26/11 wouldn't have occurred.

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## idune

*Kashmir: The Domino Effect*
By Sameer Bhat

03 August, 2010
Countercurrents.org

It is awful to follow Kashmir these days. Each voice in the tiny valley carries a hint of sob. Every hour brings in more sad tidings. The roar and the smoke of clash seem to be getting louder by the hour. Curlicues of Barbwire and Dannert wire appear ineffective. All efforts made to describe the strange shape of this furor have gone wrong. Without attempting to be all too worked up, it is safe to assume that the Tehreek [movement for Freedom in Kashmir] is on an auto-pilot. 

There is a limit point upto which the human mind is capable of remembering names and ages. *So many kids have fallen to ugly force in the last couple of weeks that the threshold has not only been submerged, it is completely blanked out now.* Since the mind is programmed to seek answers, partly to beat the tedium and partly to comprehend what is going on, opinions are abound. Like moths on a starless night. Everybody  from the harried CM Omar Abdullah to the underground fugitive Masrat Alam  is incriminated. Vox Populi is filled with bewilderment.

The right to protest is a fundamental right under Article 19 of the Constitution of India. Throwing stones is not. Setting fire to government property is not. Clearly someone is not abiding by the law of the land. But that is not the whole picture. The rules on the use of force against unlawful crowds are also clear. Section 130 of Indias Code of Criminal Procedure, is clear: If the assembly cannot be dispersed otherwise and it is necessary in public interest, then the executive magistrate can order armed forces to disperse the assembly. Even then, every officer must use as little force, and do as little injury to people. 
In Kashmir the line between natural rights and legal rights is often quite blurry.

At this moment a fear of the awkward looms. No one knows what happens next. 
The protests come along as asymmetrical. Bricks dont come from Pakistan, as prime- time TV anchors with prim faces smeared with foundation cosmetics would break down for us. The weekly Hartal  calendars issued from some hideaway, much electronegative as they are, continue to be followed in letter and spirit. The traditional opposition to the ruling coterie, Hurriyet, appears as naïfly as the common man. Omar is politically sidelined  trying to assert his authority by taking turns subsequently to preach on TV, order probes, dash off to Delhi (as and when summoned) and express -- what can be at best be called a cross between impuissance and an inability to do anything. 

Three full fortnights of strikes have passed by. While it strikes one as windy and impractical, given the fact that the axe falls first on the less privileged, the effrontery is seriously alarming. The curfews are getting punitive. Phones in more sensitive pockets of the valley are jammed for well over a month. Text messaging doesnt work at all. Six million men and women of Kashmir are finding it hard to grasp what they can do and what they are allowed to do. 

No one talks about the silver minted look of Omar anymore. As if on cue, everyone is looking up at the sky. The clouds appear shaped like stones.

Kashmir: The Domino Effect By Sameer Bhat

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## ejaz007

gogbot said:


> *I hate to make a point of any dead.
> *
> 
> But tell me how many are dead in Karachi.
> 
> You have given me 45 dead in Over a month.
> 
> Yet in a very short span of time many more died in Karachi.
> 
> Yet you make comments like Indian barbarity.




Karachi is not disputed territory Kashmir is. Pakistan Army is not killing people in Karachi but Indian Army is in Kashmir.

People of two or three different political parties are fighting among themselves they are not demanding freedom from Pakistan. People in Indian Occupied Kashmir are demanding freedom from India.

I hope you get the picture. There is no comparison between the two situations.


----------



## Raghu

Asim Aquil said:


> Indians cannot justify killing Kashmiris just because they are beating them up. Kashmiris have been invaded and are being killed in PROVEN faked encounters. By a pure moral stand point it is within the rights of Kashmiris to kill their Indian occupiers but the Indian occupiers are not within their rights to kill them back - this is not self-defence on the part of the Indians but on the Kashmiris.



Actually its the *police of J & K * assited by central CRPF who is fire fighting not just these fatal stone pelter but rioters & arsonist and still deal with them with utmost restrain ,only firing in self defence when faced with grave damage to personnel and public property.


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## ejaz007

Pride said:


> Demonstration is their right but not with gun, swords, lathis, stones, petrol bombs. We allow their human and democratic right that is why there are separatists get their chance for public speaking and allow them to participate in our democratic elections.



Post pictures showing that demonstrators were armed or carrying weapons unless offcourse you consider stone a WMD.


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## jha

idune said:


> I dont think Kashmiris dont give a damm what indians thinks, they are struggling for what is rightfully their.



Good for them, isn;t it...?
Why dont you come and join them..?
oh wait you are already in your own struggle of freedom from us in your country...so sad..got rid of Pakistan in 71 and are being ruled by bharat now..

Now since we have had our share of trolling, leave this thread for rookies..


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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> That's correct and thats probably what you should be saying, not that "Oh they are pelting us so we are forced to kill them. No sir, don't jerk us around, you're not forced to kill them. You can up and leave from Kashmir and no one will kill you.
> 
> In this whole scenario, you drew first blood by occupying Kashmir and from there on it's within Kashmiris' rights to do anything to you and they will be on the right and you will be on the wrong.
> 
> They are killing the villains of this story, they are on the right.



Whatever works you...Net Net, We believe its a part of our country and will do what we as a country see fit. You can call it murder or rights abuse.. Doesnt impact us at all. 

Would have been different if India and Pakistan were friendly nations but they are not. As I said else where, India and Pakistan are the real enemies of each other and an enemy's demand about a state that we consider as a part of our nation has no importance.

Now for these misguided citizens of ours (btw over 70% of them carry India's voter ID cards). If they break Law and Order, they will be treated just like residents of any other state of India. There is an escalating level of force usage which has deadly force as a valid level. Results in deaths of people indulging in violent activities. Unfortunate but unavoidable. If you pick up a stone to hit a member of security forces, dont expect only a stone coming back at you. 

On the rest of your post.. No question of jerking you around as in our eyes, you are not an impacted/interested party in the whole thing. Its between India and some of its citizens. You can tie your self to any imaginary thread of your choice and jerk around. We are really not interested in either the cause or impact of that jerking..

On First blood.. No point going there since we disagree on the events of 1947 and no thread is long enough to reach an agreement there..

Us getting up and leaving.. Well, all I can say is dont hold your breath...

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## ejaz007

Raghu said:


> Actually its the *police of J & K * assited by central CRPF who is fire fighting not just these fatal stone pelter but rioters & arsonist and still deal with them with utmost restrain ,only firing in self defence when faced with grave damage to personnel and public property.



Your information is outdated. Army has been called in since July 2010 to impose curfew.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

ejaz007 said:


> Your information is outdated. Army has been called in since July 2010 to impose curfew.



Army did a flag march on the outskirts of the city last week..after the situation calmed down...they were back in their barracks.


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## Pride

idune said:


> *Kashmir: The Domino Effect*
> By Sameer Bhat
> 
> 03 August, 2010
> Countercurrents.org
> 
> It is awful to follow Kashmir these days. Each voice in the tiny valley carries a hint of sob. Every hour brings in more sad tidings. The roar and the smoke of clash seem to be getting louder by the hour. Curlicues of Barbwire and Dannert wire appear ineffective. All efforts made to describe the strange shape of this furor have gone wrong. Without attempting to be all too worked up, it is safe to assume that the Tehreek [movement for Freedom in Kashmir] is on an auto-pilot.
> 
> There is a limit point upto which the human mind is capable of remembering names and ages. *So many kids have fallen to ugly force in the last couple of weeks that the threshold has not only been submerged, it is completely blanked out now.* Since the mind is programmed to seek answers, partly to beat the tedium and partly to comprehend what is going on, opinions are abound. Like moths on a starless night. Everybody  from the harried CM Omar Abdullah to the underground fugitive Masrat Alam  is incriminated. Vox Populi is filled with bewilderment.
> 
> *The right to protest is a fundamental right under Article 19 of the Constitution of India. Throwing stones is not. Setting fire to government property is not.Clearly someone is not abiding by the law of the land.* But that is not the whole picture. The rules on the use of force against unlawful crowds are also clear. Section 130 of Indias Code of Criminal Procedure, is clear: If the assembly cannot be dispersed otherwise and it is necessary in public interest, then the executive magistrate can order armed forces to disperse the assembly. Even then, every officer must use as little force, and do as little injury to people.
> In Kashmir the line between natural rights and legal rights is often quite blurry.
> 
> At this moment a fear of the awkward looms. No one knows what happens next.
> The protests come along as asymmetrical. Bricks dont come from Pakistan, as prime- time TV anchors with prim faces smeared with foundation cosmetics would break down for us. The weekly Hartal  calendars issued from some hideaway, much electronegative as they are, continue to be followed in letter and spirit. The traditional opposition to the ruling coterie, Hurriyet, appears as naïfly as the common man. Omar is politically sidelined  trying to assert his authority by taking turns subsequently to preach on TV, order probes, dash off to Delhi (as and when summoned) and express -- what can be at best be called a cross between impuissance and an inability to do anything.
> 
> Three full fortnights of strikes have passed by. While it strikes one as windy and impractical, given the fact that the axe falls first on the less privileged, the effrontery is seriously alarming. The curfews are getting punitive. Phones in more sensitive pockets of the valley are jammed for well over a month. Text messaging doesnt work at all. Six million men and women of Kashmir are finding it hard to grasp what they can do and what they are allowed to do.
> 
> No one talks about the silver minted look of Omar anymore. As if on cue, everyone is looking up at the sky. The clouds appear shaped like stones.
> 
> Kashmir: The Domino Effect By Sameer Bhat




You always be selective to show your point of view Now read current bold part in same article...


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## 0.o

Why is it itching Pakistan!!?


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## Pride

ejaz007 said:


> *Karachi is not disputed territory Kashmir is. Pakistan Army is not killing people in Karachi but Indian Army is in Kashmir.*
> People of two or three different political parties are fighting among themselves they are not demanding freedom from Pakistan. People in Indian Occupied Kashmir are demanding freedom from India.
> 
> I hope you get the picture. There is no comparison between the two situations.



Care to explain, why killing humans in disputed territory is different from killing in non-disputed territorry? 

This rant of disputed vs non-disputed does not hold any authority if any police or army kill their citizen. Whole world hates atrocities of Nazis killing Jews in non-disputed territorry, PA killing Bangladeshis in non-disputed territory and in Tianman square PLA killing youth in non-disputed territory.

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## Pride

0.o said:


> Why is it itching Pakistan!!?



Because their historians told them that Kashmiris want to join Pakistan (Dont ask for any proof) and hence Pakistan sent some liberation army (which looted and raped Kashmiris and made it disputed) to liberate them.


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

Pride said:


> Because their historians told them that Kashmiris want to join Pakistan (Dont ask for any proof) and hence Pakistan sent some liberation army (which looted and raped Kashmiris and made it disputed) to liberate them.



That's not true. Indians have looted and raped Kashmir like a bunch of savages. Just look at the way you guys communally butcher each other all over India.


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## ejaz007

Pride said:


> Because their historians told them that Kashmiris want to join Pakistan (Dont ask for any proof) and hence Pakistan sent some liberation army (which looted and raped Kashmiris and made it disputed) to liberate them.



And your great Jawahar Lal Nehru agreed in UN that Kashmir is a disputed territory. Perhaps he was one of us you know working for ISI.


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## ejaz007

Pride said:


> Care to explain, why killing humans in disputed territory is different from killing in non-disputed territorry?
> 
> This rant of disputed vs non-disputed does not hold any authority if any police or army kill their citizen. Whole world hates atrocities of Nazis killing Jews in non-disputed territorry, PA killing Bangladeshis in non-disputed territory and in Tianman square PLA killing youth in non-disputed territory.



Care to explain when police killed people in Karachi. You do not have any argument to bring forward therefore are trying to mix two different scenarios in the hope of concealing the actual killings done by IA.


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## Pride

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> That's not true. Indians have looted and raped Kashmir like a bunch of savages. Just look at the way you guys communally butcher each other all over India.



Who told you?? We dont allow international media to come up.. We rape, kill them and make anonymous graves.. did they tell you?

The whole Pakistan is on fire in every state and you are telling us for communally butchering.. wake up kiddo..


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## Pride

ejaz007 said:


> And your great Jawahar Lal Nehru agreed in UN that Kashmir is a disputed territory. Perhaps he was one of us you know working for ISI.



He did along with your government to unite Kashmir including your side of Kashmir and G-B but here comes your mass migration and attack.


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## ejaz007

These are your protestors carrying lethat weapons. So far even protestors have no been able to discover the weapons but Indians have discovered:

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## ejaz007

Kashmiris during the funeral of a nine year old child on August 03, 2010:

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## Pride

ejaz007 said:


> Care to explain when police killed people in Karachi. You do not have any argument to bring forward therefore are trying to mix two different scenarios in the hope of concealing the actual killings done by IA.



Well above statement from my POV is called Blabbering.. Please see my earlier post.. read it calmly and then respond..

FYI, I am just trying to know how killing of 45 people in J&K is cruel and unjustified as IA is killing while the same is justified in Karachi/KP/Balochistan where more than these numbers are getting killed is justified because of this non-disputed Vs disputed territorry. First one for us is same as second case for you. Period..


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## Pride

ejaz007 said:


> These are your protestors carrying lethat weapons. So far even protestors have no been able to discover the weapons but Indians have discovered:



And how many of them were killed?? Could you please post those pics where the same people were shown as dead?


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## ejaz007

People carrying dead body of Mehraj Ahmed Loone on August 03, 2010:


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## storm seeker

ejaz007 said:


> Kashmiris during the funeral of a nine year old child on August 03, 2010:



they are blind cant see it


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## storm seeker

ejaz007 said:


> People carrying dead body of Mehraj Ahmed Loone on August 03, 2010:



alas ...... he is so young


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## Pride

storm seeker said:


> alas ...... he is so young



Alas.. RIP to fellow citizen..


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

Pride said:


> Alas.. RIP to fellow citizen..



Your fellow citizen? After being murdered by your fellow Army.


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## anathema

*For all the Kashmiri sympathizers (for their own selfish needs)...*

*Blink *... check the news now ...Kashmir is still part of India ... *Blink again*...check the news now ... Kashmir is still part of India....

You have been blinking over and again for the past *60* years only to find that Kashmir has been and will be there in India.Kashmir will be a part of India *just as any other state* is a part of India. 

No amount of crying or belching will change that fact !!

For people who believe that this will change ! I just brought the realTaj Mahal for 100 bucks !


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## anathema

storm seeker said:


> alas ...... he is so young



No sympathies...Young people are high on testosterone ! and are prone to be foolish enough to venture out or do anti state activities even if GoI has issued shoot at sight orders.

Hope there are sensible ones out there ! We can do better without these kinds of people.


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

self delete


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## anathema

I strongly feel that in dealing with these situations ! We should adopt the Chinese way of how to suppress these anti state protests ..

1) Media black out.
2) Arrest all the prominent anti state leaders/activists -- Make an example out of them.
3) Reward loyalists.
4) Make sure that you carry unprecedented developmental activities in the state !

Shhhh....do i hear any Pakistanis making any comments on uighur or tibetian suppression ...ofcourse not ! After all Chinese brothers cannot be offended..what will happen to wonderful JF17 programme if that were case...so remain mum and act as if you dont see anything or concentrate on Kashmir. 

India is really a $&#37;$%$ when it comes to dealing these matters. 

I strongly feel that all these protests are from people who have nothing better to do in life -- better give them something to live for !

Apologies just wanted to vent out.

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## Kompromat

@ All Indians:

You policy is counterproductive - you will see how many kasabs these killings will produce - how many will join Kashmiri mujahedeens ?

Do you know you are firing on your own feet by killing these civilians ??


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## RobbieS

Black Blood said:


> @ All Indians:
> 
> You policy is counterproductive - you will see how many kasabs these killings will produce - how many will join Kashmiri mujahedeens ?


Really, you mean more Pakistani Punjabis will enter India and spread havoc (aided by the ISI)? And then you talk about India not being serious about the talks and insisting on concrete actions against the terrorist organizations in Pak.



> Do you know you are firing on your own feet by killing these civilians ??



Yeah? And what were they trying to do be throwing stones at their own police force?


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## storm seeker

anathema said:


> No sympathies...Young people are high on testosterone ! and are prone to be foolish enough to venture out or do anti state activities even if GoI has issued shoot at sight orders.
> 
> Hope there are sensible ones out there ! We can do better without these kinds of people.



thats wat u think ........ then why dont u kill all ur young ppl .... ager kabhi aisi zarroorat parhe to main hazir hoon .... to kill ur young ppl*Hope there are sensible ones out there ! We can do better without these kinds of people*.

they are all freedom fighters and if demanding for freedom, is senselessness there is no one sensible 
and in this perspective *all ur leaders* were foolish too


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## storm seeker

RobbieS said:


> *Yeah? And what were they trying to do be throwing stones at their own police force?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> u are denying they are ur ppl ...... so u believe they are not one of u then why dont u ppl just leaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaave kashmir


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## Iggy

storm seeker said:


> they are blind cant see it



The question is why are you guys only seeing the one side of the story as always? here is another link of another story



> *Omar questions separatists' silence over killing of child*
> 
> 
> father in Shopian in South KashJammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah questioned the silence of separatist leaders over the *barbaric killing of a three-year-old boy *and his mir, terming their stand as "hypocritical".
> 
> "Why are separatist leaders silent on this issue?" Omar said while reacting to the killing of toddler Arif allegedly by militants of Hizbul Mujahideen along with his father in Shopian on Thursday.
> 
> *Aslam Awam was fired upon indiscriminately by Hizbul militants and Arif was in his lap when the incident took place.*
> 
> Hizbul Mujahideen were on a lookout for Aslam and had made an attempt on his life on the intervening night of April 14-15 also.
> 
> Though he managed to escape death, the militants killed his 60-year-old mother Reshma. "Where are Yasin Malik and other separatist leaders? This is the worst form of hypocritical politics", the Chief Minister said.
> 
> *Omar said the situation would have been different, if the child had been accidentally killed in firing by security forces.*
> 
> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/omar-questions-separatists-silence-over-kil/493597/




So whats your opinion guys??whose baraberic activity is this??still thinks the mujaheddin are angels??


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## Iggy

Shoot at sight orders were previously given to many other places in India when people become violent and many people died in it too..some times it is absolute necessary to maintain peace..how many times shooting occurred in your country against violent mob??


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## RobbieS

storm seeker said:


> RobbieS said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Yeah? And what were they trying to do be throwing stones at their own police force?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> u are denying they are ur ppl ...... so u believe they are not one of u then why dont u ppl just leaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaave kashmir
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And why is ur *** on fire? Disputed region or not, those people are India citizens right now and Pakistanis can keep on crying about it as much as they want.
Click to expand...


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## storm seeker

RobbieS said:


> storm seeker said:
> 
> 
> 
> And why is ur *** on fire? Disputed region or not, those people are India citizens right now and Pakistanis can keep on crying about it as much as they want.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yes we are trying and we will keep on tryinh any problem !!!!!!!!
> *And why is ur *** on fire* ask ur self abt it it fits on u
Click to expand...


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## karan.1970

^ So true.. One thing that doesnt cease to amaze me is that somehow, a civilian getting killed by Sec forces in Kashmir is different from a civilian getting killed by Sec forces in a NWFP or FATA simply because Kashmir is considered a disputed area. 

Goes to show that this display of solidarity is not that humanitarian as it is made out to be. Its more to do with the dispute with India than the actual civilian lives....


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## vsdoc

Karan believe me bro, if humanitarianism was the overriding sentiment here, Pakistanis have more than enough fodder in their own barn to feed their cows till they come home.

Hindi mein ek kahavat hai - Sau choohe kha kar billi chali haj ko.

Cheers, Doc


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## Awesome

Any dumbass that wants Pakistanis to shut up because there are internal issues, I say F off, this is an International forum discussing all relevant issues with Pakistan. Kashmir if you've not noticed is integral to all policy and strategic decisions of Pakistan. 

Stop lecturing us, talk on topic, don't be such an effin Pussy that you need to shift the topic away, talk about the issue at hand or bow the F out of the debate or we'll take care of those people who want to reduce the quality of this forum by discussing Y in topic X.

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## Amit12

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> Your fellow citizen? After being murdered by your fellow *Army.*



put any source that show this is done by army ..... or get the f *** out here


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## deltacamelately

Kashmir is disturbed. But we are not. We know the unrest has to calm down and we know how that will be. Its an integral part of India and even the most hard headed guy there knows, that it will remain so. Period.

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## vsdoc

Asim Aquil said:


> Kashmir if you've not noticed is integral to all policy and strategic decisions of Pakistan.



Oh believe me, we have noticed. Which is what my post was all about. Which I'm sure you noticed. Far be it from us to tell Pakistanis to frame their policy and strategic decisions on what they control rather than what they do not, did not, and will not. Ever.

Cheers, Doc


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## kugga

desiman said:


> they throw stones at the police, light up police stations, blow up ammunition depots, sorry these are not civilians and they will be killed. Destroying state property is a crime and action will be taken against the criminals. Well Done to the Indian army. *Please ask the same question to the Pakistani army which bomb innocent civilians because Uncle Sam wants them to*, very sad.



Paksitan army is not bombing innocent civilians anywhere.....they are fighting with armed persons.... not like you who kill innocent unarmed people who want to get rid of you.....

This brutal killing should end now


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## Spring Onion

desiman said:


> Sorry your point of view is one sided and you will never understand our point of view. You do the same in the North West territories and its called fighting the "War on terror", and when we do the same its called killing "Innocent civilians",double standards isnt it ? This hardly seems an article as a result of some "Research", so i recommend our fellow researchers spend time on constructive research rather than one sided blame games.



One of the most and dumbest comparisons bhartis bring in. NW Pakistan is part of Pakistan unlike Indian Occupied Kashmir which is not part of India rather an occupied land where Indian State Terrorism is on peak since many decades.


We Pakistanis do not bring in North East Indian insurgencies here because thats part of India.


So the bottom line is if at all bhaaaaartis want to compare the situation you can compare NE maoists and other Indian insurgencies with North West Pakistan situation .


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## Spring Onion

deltacamelately said:


> Kashmir is disturbed. But we are not. We know the unrest has to calm down and we know how that will be. Its an integral part of India and even the most hard headed guy there knows, that it will remain so. Period.



The Indian killers can not be disturbed because you had been killing innocent Kashmiris since many decades.

Kashmir is NOT never WAS, never will be "integral" part of bhaarat aka india.


By occupying a land it can not become your part no mater how many million terrorist troops india deploy there


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## Amit12

Jana said:


> One of the most and dumbest comparisons bhartis bring in. NW Pakistan is part of Pakistan unlike Indian Occupied Kashmir which is not part of India rather an occupied land where Indian State Terrorism is on peak since many decades.
> 
> 
> We Pakistanis do not bring in North East Indian insurgencies here because thats part of India.
> 
> 
> So the bottom line is if at all bhaaaaartis want to compare the situation you can compare* NE maoists *and other Indian insurgencies with* North West Pakistan situation* .



their is a big big difference maoists dnt want to make new country for them self but in baluchistan people want to be independent from Pakistans occupation


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## Spring Onion

karan.1970 said:


> ^ So true.. One thing that doesnt cease to amaze me is that somehow, a civilian getting killed by Sec forces in Kashmir is different from a civilian getting killed by Sec forces in a NWFP or FATA simply because Kashmir is considered a disputed area.
> 
> Goes to show that this display of solidarity is not that humanitarian as it is made out to be. Its more to do with the dispute with India than the actual civilian lives....



Yes it is different because FATA, NWFP is internal matter of Pakistan and there is NO occupation rather its part of Pakistan according to International Laws whereas despite Indian occupation, Held Kashmir is NOT part of India.


Get a life now


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## Spring Onion

Amit12 said:


> their is a big big difference maoists dnt want to make new country for them self but in baluchistan people want to be independent from Pakistans occupation



Any dumb as.s will think that Balochistan is Northwest Pakistan.


So first try to learn the geography. 


Balochistan is also internal matter of Pakistan. Dont try to as Asim said shed your insecurities by bringing in internal matters of Pakistan.


and oh there are many Naga lands, bodolands, khalistans and so on.

Please open separat threads for that we can discuss that there


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## vsdoc

Jana said:


> By occupying a land it can not become your part no mater how many million terrorist troops india deploy there



Of course it can. 

Where do you think the muslim invaders of India came from? From India?

Yet they and their progeny still inhabit Bharatvarsh (present day Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and India) do they not?

Where do you think the muslim invaders of Persia came from? From Persia?

Yet they and their progeny still inhabit present day Iraq and Iran do they not?

It all started with "million terrorist troops" who over time assimilated into the soil.

As will happen with Kashmir.

Flawed argument Jana.

Cheers, Doc

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## Iggy

kugga said:


> Paksitan army is not bombing innocent civilians anywhere.....they are fighting with armed persons.... not like you who kill innocent unarmed people who want to get rid of you.....
> 
> This brutal killing should end now



Some times in different part of the world ..Police and military uses firepower to disperse the violent crowd..its what happening in Kashmir too..lots of people are affecting with the standstill in Kashmir..many people lost their daily earning because of some people..how long will they allow it to happen??


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## karan.1970

@Jana, Please feel free to discuss any insurgencies in India. As Asim says, its an international forum, open to all discussions. Do discuss Maoists, ULFA etc and we will return the favor and discuss Sindh, Balochistan, FATA, NWFP, SWAT, Taliban etc (in the relevant threads)

I do agree that lets do it in their own threads and not mix them up.. However there is always merit in discussing a broader security situation in the country while discussing a particular insurgency or problem.. As they say.. No man (or situation) is an island..

Also, the disputed nature of a piece of land is not the only parameter that defines similarities between 2 situations.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Jana said:


> The Indian killers can not be disturbed because you had been killing innocent Kashmiris since many decades.
> 
> Kashmir is NOT never WAS, never will be "integral" part of bhaarat aka india.
> 
> 
> By occupying a land it can not become your part no mater how many million terrorist troops india deploy there



Paktribune misses your pristine,un-biased,balanced views 

*@ontopic*
45?i think the numbers will be higher.


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## Iggy

Jana said:


> One of the most and dumbest comparisons bhartis bring in. NW Pakistan is part of Pakistan unlike Indian Occupied Kashmir which is not part of India rather an occupied land where Indian State Terrorism is on peak since many decades.
> We Pakistanis do not bring in North East Indian insurgencies here because thats part of India.
> So the bottom line is if at all bhaaaaartis want to compare the situation you can compare NE maoists and other Indian insurgencies with North West Pakistan situation .



Terrorism of Kashmir started in late 90's when you guys started supporting it..before it Kashmir was calm..and there is no NE maosits..and also Asim pointed out that he will kick out those who bring X,Y,Z in to this discussion..i think he just not meant for Indians only..


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## karan.1970

kugga said:


> Paksitan army is not bombing innocent civilians anywhere.....they are fighting with armed persons.... not like you who kill innocent unarmed people who want to get rid of you.....
> 
> This brutal killing should end now



Didnt your COAS recently apologise publically for civilian deaths in army operations. Didnt people on this forum recently proved by their arguements that drone attacks are happeneing with PA cooperation. The same drone attacks that are blamed to have killed hundreds of civilians.. And Agno had been blaming India for double standards 

Oh! I forgot.. Kashmir is disputed so its different..

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## Iggy

Jana said:


> The Indian killers can not be disturbed because you had been killing innocent Kashmiris since many decades.
> 
> *Kashmir is NOT never WAS, never will be "integral" part of bhaarat aka india.*
> 
> 
> By occupying a land it can not become your part no mater how many million terrorist troops india deploy there



Before typing stupidity it will be good for you to read some history and look at the maps.where do you think Kashmir was before 1947??is it bought by Muslim invaders or Britishers from their country??.Kashmir was and will be an Integral part of India..


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## karan.1970

Jana said:


> Yes it is different because FATA, NWFP is internal matter of Pakistan and there is NO occupation rather its part of Pakistan according to International Laws whereas despite Indian occupation, Held Kashmir is NOT part of India.
> 
> 
> Get a life now



How does it make it any different to the civilian getting killed or his family. Last I checked the loss felt by them is same in both cases. God does not allow weekly family visits for people killed in undisputed areas..

So as I said, feel free to discuss Kashmir based on your national mentality of that being a part of Pakistan in India's occupation. We will have an honest discussion if nothing else. All I am saying is to give a rest to the whole "my heart beats for my Kashmiri brothers" BS..

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## graphican

amit27 said:


> Your wrong recent studies show that kashmiri people want peace, jobs and security like any human being. Some of these youths are hell bent on causing trouble as they have nothing to look forward to. Its a classic cry for help but instead the Indian goverment is using aggressive techniques which will not work, crowd control can be easily done with rubber bullets and water guns I dont know why the Indian army dont move towards these methods.



Sure Kashmiris want peace, jobs and security, who on earth wouldn't want them but they equally want their right to plebiscite which Pandit Nehru agreed he would provide. What are they killing their lives for? For Job, peace and security? Lets stop talking non-sense. Shell we?


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## Dash

ohh...we are doing dog fight over kashmir, is it??

Let me join and say hello!!....


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## Raghu

What going on in the valley is nothing but naked communal separatism.Its all restricted the few districts of Kashmir valley.

Hindu dominated Jammu is clam like never ever.No body looking for azadi in jammu inclding muslims living there . So is the case up north in Buddhist Laddhak and even in Shia dominated Rajori -poonch distrcts anyone barely feels they are under an occupation though they see more Army men guarding LOC than valley Kashmiris, in fact they feel Army done more in last two decade in these remotes areas than any leader who sits in Srinagar.

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## Iggy

graphican said:


> Sure Kashmiris *want peace, jobs and security*, who on earth wouldn't want them but they equally want their right to plebiscite which Pandit Nehru agreed he would provide. What are they killing their lives for? For Job, peace and security? Lets stop talking non-sense. Shell we?



and you think pelting stones at civilians and forcing others to close shops will help them get it??they are now making innocent Kashmiries lives hell..


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## Dash

seiko said:


> and you think pelting stones at civilians and forcing others to close shops will help them get it??they are now making innocent Kashmiries lives hell..


Seiko -

I personally feel the actual people rebelling are no way representing the entire kashmir. The ratio os rebels compared to Kashmir populattion will be 0.05: a million.

There is no point they are puting accross in doing this.
Its just another form of CROSS BORDER TERRORISM.


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## graphican

chachachoudhary said:


> *People of india and GOI has amply made it clear that territorial integrity of india cannot be compromised at any cost. Indian constitution does not allow compromising territorial integrity of any part of india under any circumstances. *There are a few people in the valley who think that by resorting to violence and arousing passions and chest beating they can gather enough international pressure and india may consider some "autonomy" to Kashmir valley, but it should be made known to these rabble-rousers that indian state is ready to go to "any extent" and only way forward for any and all in the valley is peace and allegiance to india. Kashmir valley does not belong to any group of people, but it belongs to entire india.
> 
> However, india may consider requesting Pakistan to give citizenship to those kashmiri people who do not want to live in india. We are ready to give them a ceremonial farewell so that the rest of the valley can live peacefully.



Why do you think Kashiries accept Indian Constitution as their book of guidance? They over-throw Indian Flags, burn them, tear it apart and you expect they would stop seeking freedom because Indian Constitution doesn't permit territorial disintegration? Please people, an argument must have some logic in it.

Kashmir isn't part of India the first place and this is its internationally recognized stature. Second, The Indian Partition plan clearly states Muslim Majority Areas would be part of Pakistan and Hindu Majority Areas will conform India. Now have a look at the following Map and see yourself where do Kashmiri belongs to. 







I wonder if you guys are ignorant on these aspects or you purposefully deny the truth even when you know you are factually, logically and morally wrong.


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## Spring Onion

karan.1970 said:


> @Jana, Please feel free to discuss any insurgencies in India. As Asim says, its an international forum, open to all discussions. Do discuss Maoists, ULFA etc and we will return the favor and discuss Sindh, Balochistan, FATA, NWFP, SWAT, Taliban etc (in the relevant threads)
> 
> I do agree that lets do it in their own threads and not mix them up.. However there is always merit in discussing a broader security situation in the country while discussing a particular insurgency or problem.. As they say.. No man (or situation) is an island..
> 
> Also, the disputed nature of a piece of land is not the only parameter that defines similarities between 2 situations.



Nobody is stopping you from discussing any part of Pakistan BUT please do it in appropriate thread and DO NOT compare NWFP/KP, Sindh, Punjab, Balochistan and so on with Occupied Kashmir.

As far as Indian insurgencies are concerned we do not compare Kashmir with those but i am afraid Indians have some problem with their thinking.


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## vsdoc

What India needs is for the army to be given free hand in Kashmir. 6 months is all it will take before the state is cleaned up for good. 

But our weak diplomacy has always tied the army's hands, so that all justified kills have to be cloaked in endless red tape for God knows who. When you call in the exterminator, you instruct him to kill all the rats. You do not tell him this particular *** is different from this one, and hence needs to be coming under the wheels of your car accidentally in the driveway rather than being drowned like the common *** he is.

The nation needs to realise that we are at war. And wars are fought with armies, not the police.

All this laughing about getting slapped around and beaten up, as weak lilly livered comebacks for the same fate suffered a thousandfold on previous occasions at a national level, will then be seen in its true light.

There is no use keeping the dogs of war tied up for posterity. They need to be let loose on an open field once in a while. One only needs to see the health and vitality of our neighbours armed forces to see the truth in that.

Cheers, Doc


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## Spring Onion

Dash said:


> Seiko -
> 
> I personally feel the actual people rebelling are no way representing the entire kashmir. The ratio os rebels compared to Kashmir populattion will be 0.05: a million.
> 
> There is no point they are puting accross in doing this.
> Its just another form of CROSS BORDER TERRORISM.



Oh really if its so why is bharti govt and bhartis are so afraid to hold a referendum there under UN .

You should not be afraid after all according to your claims majority votes will be polled in favour of India.


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## graphican

seiko said:


> and you think pelting stones at civilians and forcing others to close shops will help them get it??they are now making innocent Kashmiries lives hell..



This is their maximum way of protesting.. fear of the day when they would hold Arms like Taliban and would take this movement to the next levels. May be even then you wouldn't realize what are they looking for and with what intensity.


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## Ras

Conventional rule of thumb says that you need 50 years to either squash a deep rooted insurgency or have the occupying force leave after running out of money.
The Kashmir insurgency started in 1987 so it has been around 25 years ie another 25 to go before the issue is settled. 

India cannot be forced out of Kashmir with force they have to run out of resources...I always thought that Pakistan missed a golden opportunity in the early 90's when India was bankrupt.


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## RobbieS

vsdoc said:


> What India needs is for the army to be given free hand in Kashmir. 6 months is all it will take before the state is cleaned up for good.
> 
> But our weak diplomacy has always tied the army's hands, so that all justified kills have to be cloaked in endless red tape for God knows who.
> 
> The nation needs to realise that we are at war. And wars are fought with armies, not the police.
> 
> All this laughing about getting slapped around and beaten up, as weak lilly livered come backs for the same fate suffered a thousandfold on previous occasion at a national level, will thn be seen in its true light.
> 
> There is no use keeping the dogs of war tied up for posterity. They need to be let loose on an open field once in a while. One only needs to see the health and vitality of our neighbours armed forces to see the truth in that.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



With all due respect, I'd disagree with that. I am aware of the situation, outside support and internal strife, but an exclusively army operation is no solution. Punjab saw that in the 90s and though it will look peaceful to you, the embers are still hot. That decade and the brutality scarred a generation. Kashmir has already experienced far worse than that and will continue if a humanitarian solution is not founded. Violence, state or non-state is simply not the solution.


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## graphican

vsdoc said:


> *What India needs is for the army to be given free hand in Kashmir. 6 months is all it will take before the state is cleaned up for good. *
> 
> But our weak diplomacy has always tied the army's hands, so that all justified kills have to be cloaked in endless red tape for God knows who. When you call in the exterminator, you instruct him to kill all the rats. You do not tell him this particular *** is different from this one, and hence needs to be coming under the wheels of your car accidentally in the driveway rather than being drowned like the common *** he is.
> 
> The nation needs to realise that we are at war. And wars are fought with armies, not the police.
> 
> All this laughing about getting slapped around and beaten up, as weak lilly livered comebacks for the same fate suffered a thousandfold on previous occasions at a national level, will then be seen in its true light.
> 
> There is no use keeping the dogs of war tied up for posterity. They need to be let loose on an open field once in a while. One only needs to see the health and vitality of our neighbours armed forces to see the truth in that.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



If your suggested policies are enforced, I am sure Kashmir will be liberated within 2 years of less. Please try spreading your message to the people responsible for decision making. I would support you.


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## Dash

Jana said:


> Oh really if its so why is bharti govt and bhartis are so afraid to hold a referendum there under UN .
> 
> You should not be afraid after all according to your claims majority votes will be polled in favour of India.


Look who has answered me?...

Ok Jana -

You will hold a referrendum under UN, but on what Kashmir?
The kashmir has to come back to its original shape as it was before right. We need to demark the true areas of kashmir and the residents to hold a referrendum?, will you agree with me?


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## Spring Onion

vsdoc said:


> What India needs is for the army to be given free hand in Kashmir. 6 months is all it will take before the state is cleaned up for good.
> 
> But our weak diplomacy has always tied the army's hands, so that all justified kills have to be cloaked in endless red tape for God knows who.
> 
> The nation needs to realise that we are at war. And wars are fought with armies, not the police.
> 
> All this laughing about getting slapped around and beaten up, as weak lilly livered come backs for the same fate suffered a thousandfold on previous occasion at a national level, will thn be seen in its true light.
> 
> There is no use keeping the dogs of war tied up for posterity. They need to be let loose on an open field once in a while. One only needs to see the health and vitality of our neighbours armed forces to see the truth in that.
> 
> Cheers, Doc




When was the last time Indian terrorist army with modern Israeli deadly weapons had not a free hand to kill Kashmiris.


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## Spring Onion

Dash said:


> Look who has answered me?...
> 
> Ok Jana -
> 
> You will hold a referrendum under UN, but on what Kashmir?
> The kashmir has to come back to its original shape as it was before right. We need to demark the true areas of kashmir and the residents to hold a referrendum?, will you agree with me?



Hold it on entire Kashmir Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir and Azad Kashmir.


We have no issue with that. Musharraf had given all options though many at our side didnt like these BUT i say let the Kashmiris decide what they want.

If they want to be with India let them do so 

if they want to be with Pakistan let them do so

If they want to be independent let them do so


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## karan.1970

Jana said:


> Nobody is stopping you from discussing any part of Pakistan BUT please do it in appropriate thread and DO NOT compare NWFP/KP, Sindh, Punjab, Balochistan and so on with Occupied Kashmir.
> 
> As far as Indian insurgencies are concerned we do not compare Kashmir with those but i am afraid Indians have some problem with their thinking.



But these insurgencies are very similar (actually the ones in NWFP are much more dangerous) except the political situation of a UN resolutions. So while there is this distinction, there arer a bunch of similarities as well. Like Indian claiming Pakistani interfearance and Pakistan claiming the same from India. Both are armed insurgencies. Civilians get killed in both.. So while I agree that detailed discucssions on these merit separate threads, there is always scope for contextual reference while discussing either.. Dont you think so???


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## karan.1970

Jana said:


> Hold it on entire Kashmir Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir and Azad Kashmir.
> 
> 
> We have no issue with that. Musharraf had given all options though many at our side didnt like these BUT i say let the Kashmiris decide what they want.
> 
> If they want to be with India let them do so
> 
> if they want to be with Pakistan let them do so
> 
> If they want to be independent let them do so



Conviniently missing out the Northern Areas.. Are we??


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## gubbi

Jana said:


> BUT i say let the Kashmiris decide what they want.
> 
> If they want to be with India let them do so
> 
> if they want to be with Pakistan let them do so
> 
> If they want to be independent let them do so



How hypocritical!

When Kashmir was independent back in 1947, it was Pakistan who invaded Kashmir on a very flimsy pretext, blaming India. India wasnt interested in interfering till Mountbatten, Nehru and Sardar Patel laid down conditions for the Maharaja to accede to the Indian Union. WHen the accord was a done deed, only then India sent in troops to push back Pakistani regulars who had reached Srinagar and were almost about to take the airport!

Lolz. And now Pakistanis call India the aggressors and occupiers? Now you people show your pseudo-sympathies for Kashmiris? Oh Yeah - pot calling the kettle black!

You blatantly disregarded the first ever UN resolution on Kashmir (being non-binding didnt help) and now you cry hoarse over UN monitored plebiscite?

You dont have your own house in order and yet want to interfere in others' affairs? Your govt cannot control all the areas that it claims to be sovereign Pakistani territories, and yet you want to control Kashmir and dream of controlling some parts if India?

You have people have no control over your own country and want to control Kashmir? Pray, how are you going to ever control Kashmir, eh?

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## Dash

Jana said:


> Hold it on entire Kashmir Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir and Azad Kashmir.
> 
> 
> We have no issue with that. Musharraf had given all options though many at our side didnt like these BUT i say let the Kashmiris decide what they want.
> 
> If they want to be with India let them do so
> 
> if they want to be with Pakistan let them do so
> 
> If they want to be independent let them do so


True -

But UN referrendum to take place there has to be a acceptance of this resolution from both sides first and according to the UN.

Now at least we will be in agreement that :- 

The United Nations brokered a cease-fire in 1949, and a five-member commission made up of Argentina, Belgium, Columbia, Czechoslovakia and the United States drew up a resolution calling for a referendum to decide Kashmir's future. 

And to be honest we never allowed at that time and there are several reasons.

1.The United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan, Having received from the Governments of India and Pakistan, in communications dated 23 December and 25 December 1948, respectively, their acceptance of the following principles which are supplementary to the Commission's Resolution of 13 August 1948: 

1. The question of the accession of the State of Jammu and Kashmir to India or Pakistan will be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite; 

2. A plebiscite will be held when it shall be found by the Commission that the cease-fire and truce arrangements set forth in Parts I and II of the Commission's resolution of 13 August 1948 have been carried out and arrangements for the plebiscite have been completed; 

There are several other pointers to it as well.

However - Is it right to bring Argentina, Belgium, Columbia, Czechoslovakia and the United States. Who are not even aware of the situation in kashmir, the so called independent states never even know that the population of kashmir was devided into 3 religions, Hindu, Muslim and Buddhism.

2. The so called cease fire never happened and Pakistan taking advantage of this plebiscite which was seen as a future viable solution inflicted damage to Hindu communities to leave that place so as to get only Muslim count votes, which in other terms damages the very foundations of this IDEA.

As of now I dont see there is any such possibility, coz the kashmir that was referred to in 1949 and the kashmir that we are reffering today has no connection and there has been a paradigm shift both in religion, culture, people and most importantly the *ideas* that governed this very state back then.

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## Spring Onion

Monday, July 5, 2010
*Indian army&#8217;s atrocities in Kashmir *


he recent incident in which a serving India Army Major from 4 Rajput Regiment assigned a Special Police Officer (SPO) to trap three unsuspecting youth from Nadihal village to Indian Army Camp in Jammu & Kashmir, on the promise of jobs and money but were murdered. Later they were projected as hard core militant. This is not the first incident of its kind as there are over 800 such incident so far reported Kashmiris are suffering since 1935, first it was Dogra Army under the patronage of British imperialists and now Indian Army has taken the charge. 

If we recall, on March 20, 2000, Indian media projected that a group of Lashkar-e-Tayyiaba (LeT) militants massacred 35 Sikhs in the village of Chittisinghpora in Anantnag district. In a mere five days, the Indian Army claimed that elements of its Rashtriya Rifles (RR) and the Special Operations Group (SOG) of the Jammu and Kashmir Police killed all the five foreign militants involved in the incident in a joint operation at a place called Pathribal. Ironically, Army claimed that bodies off the entire militant were burnt to unrecognizable degree and have been buried in a mass grave. Interestingly, it came to light at a later stage that elements of RR had killed the Sikhs to spread communal hatred among the Kashmiris. In the mean time, immediately after the massacre of the Sikhs, five local Kashmiris got missing. Their relatives also lodged report in the Anantnag police station about the disappearance but after the publication of news about Army operation in which five militants were killed, the relative requested for exhumation of the bodies. Interestingly, the family members and the villagers identified the bodies and reveled that they were simple people and had nothing to do with militancy or LeT.

It is generally observed that the Politicians in New Delhi usually get disturbed over the reaction of Kashmiri leaders over pity issues. They view that when Indian centre has already done enough for the development of Jammu and Kashmir state then why majority of the Kashmiris are not satisfied and look for opportunities to protest and create law and order situation. One would like to remind them pre-independence period when Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and other communities in India were doing the same to get rid of the imperialist intruders. Today there is a clear message for India to get out of Jammu and Kashmir state. One wonders that if New Delhi has any doubt in its mind, Kashmiri Hindu Pandits and Sikhs may be asked whether they would like to become part of India or otherwise. If in India failed to attract Hindu and Sikh minorities living in Jammu and Kashmir state to become part of Indian union, New Delhi should not have any doubt about the Kashmiri Muslim majority. It is open like a book that majority of Kashmiris want to join Pakistan while a small percentage look for complete independence.

It is sad to observe that despite all the advertisement about Human Rights and presence of International law and statues like Hague and Geneva Conventions, no action has been taken against Indian Army. One wonders why so far no one is able to file case against the Indian Army for committing war crimes. In this civilized world, the genocide of Kashmiris is openly taking place by Indian security forces and its intelligence units but no one is there to stop them. The notorious Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) is being used as a shield by Indian authorities to provide indemnification to war criminals for their atrocities committed in the line of duty, or so called good faith. Last week, top Kashmiri leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani was arrested from special prayer meeting convened by him at Hazratbal Shrine and is booked under section 151 and 107. He is presently confined at Central Jail Srinagar. The highhandedness of Indian authorities can be judged from the fact that Syed Ali Geelani was also arrested last month and released under court orders but he has been again arrested. It worth mentioning that Indian authorities are waiting for the deaths of top Kashmiri leaders like Syed Ali Geelani so there is no one to take the name of Kashmir Movement.

My Human Zoo: Indian army&#8217;s atrocities in Kashmir.


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## Spring Onion

vsdoc said:


> Bro I am not talking about a pure military operation in isolation. I however have a more than fair idea of what our fauj goes through in the valley daily. I have lost friends. I have less than zero sympathy for bastards who call themselves Indian, eat from the Indian thali, and then make a ched in the same thali.



Kashmiris dont call themselves Indians. They are NOT Indians. thats the main point.






> *They are worse than Pakistanis.* At least with Pakistanis you know where you stand.
> 
> Cheers, Doc




Watch out your mouth. We are much better than bharti munafiqs


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## Raghu

RobbieS said:


> With all due respect, I'd disagree with that. I am aware of the situation, outside support and internal strife, but an exclusively army operation is no solution. Punjab saw that in the 90s and though it will look peaceful to you, the embers are still hot. That decade and the brutality scarred a generation. Kashmir has already experienced far worse than that and will continue if a humanitarian solution is not founded. Violence, state or non-state is simply not the solution.



Robbies,

How is ur boy Omar abdullah doing in kashmir??

U once called this guy , future leader of this country, he is son of powerful politician,and thats it about him.
............................................................

Its time for local politicians of Kashmir to charge and placate the young kashmiri boys by give them sound direction,but no, old Kaskmiri leader busy doing this:


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## Iggy

graphican said:


> This is their maximum way of protesting.. fear of the day when they would hold Arms like Taliban and would take this movement to the next levels. May be even then you wouldn't realize what are they looking for and with what intensity.



This is not the maximum way its just the another way when previous way had failed..people came there from different part of the world in the name of religion and money to have proxy war and it had been backfired now they are changing the stand to look it like the victims..


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## EjazR

*Chidambaram appeals for peace in Kashmir - Hindustan Times*

Home Minister P Chidambaram on Wednesday appealed to the people of Jammu and Kashmir to "end the cycle of violence" that has been continuing for the past more than 50 days. "I appeal to the people of Jammu and Kashmir to end the cycle of violence," Chidambaram said in the Lok Sabha. 

He said the central government was behind the Omar Abdullah-led state government in its efforts aimed at restoration of peace, holding dialogue and redressal of grievances in all parts of Kashmir. 

Chidambaram made a specific appeal to parents in Kashmir, urging them to ensure that their children do not become part of violent activities. 

He said that there were 872 stone pelting incidents in June and July 2010 and 1,456 security personnel were injured, adding that the security forces showed "great fortitude" in dealing with the violent protests. 

The Kashmir Valley has been on the boil due to violent protests against civilians being killed in firing by security forces since June 11.

---------- Post added at 07:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:09 AM ----------

* Geelani appeals for peace in Kashmir Valley*

As Kashmir Valley witnessed an upsurge in violence, hardline leader and chairman of a faction of Hurriyat Conference Syed Ali Shah Geelani on Wednesday made a surprise appeal to agitators not to indulge in arson but demonstrate peacefully.

*In an appeal, the 80-year-old Jamaat-e-Islami leader said those indulging in stone pelting, burning offices, railway stations and vehicles &#8220;did not belong to the Kashmir movement&#8221; and were only causing harm to the issue.*

Mr. Geelani, who was recently released from custody by the State government, asked people to undertake peaceful demonstrations and stage sit-ins wherever they are stopped. He said the widespread arson against public property was a reaction of youth against the Centre but this was going against the ethos of the cause being harboured by the separatist organisation. He appealed to people to give a thought to his appeal with a calm mind and refrain from indulging in violent protests.


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## EjazR

*Bandipora swamped Crops houses damaged Lastupdate:- Thu, 29 Jul 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com*

Bandipora, July 28: Large stretches of agricultural land were inundated and over 15 houses damaged following breach in rivers and irrigation canals due to floods in North Kashmir district of Bandipora.
During the past few days various parts of Bandipora like Ashtangoo, Malangam, Quail, Putushay, Mangnipora, Turkpora, Kema, Kanbathi, Aloosa Ghat, Paribal, Putushay and Doban were lashed by heavy rains.
Over 15 houses, three band saw mills and 50 cowsheds have been damaged.
&#8220;Floods have damaged paddy on thousands of acres but the actual loss will be evaluated after detailed survey,&#8221; said Additional Deputy Commissioner, Ghulam Hassan Khan.
&#8220;We have deputed various teams of Flood Control, Revenue and Agriculture departments to evaluate the losses,&#8221; he said.
Meanwhile, Minister of State for PHE, Nasir Aslam Wani, along with Member Parliament Sharif-u-din Shariq today visited the flood hit villages. The Minister directed for immediate rehabilitation of the affected and also asked the Flood Control Department to undertake repairs of bunds on priority to prevent recurrence of such incidents.
Talking to Greater Kashmir, Wani said, &#8220;The Government has prepared a plan to protect the people from floods along various rivers in the district.&#8221;
&#8220;We are taking all safety measures and water level has also started receding in most parts of the district. We expect the situation to normalize by tomorrow,&#8221; said Sharif-u-din Shariq.

*ARMY RESCUES FAMILIES*
A defence spokesman said Wednesday that army during the intervening night of Tuesday-Wednesday rescued 500 families caught in flash floods triggered by cloudburst and rains in the Rishi Canal in Bandipora district.
The spokesman in a statement said that five square kilometre area of Malangan village was threatened by the flash floods in the canal.
The worst hit areas were Sheikhmuquam and Turkpura. The spokesman said the rescue efforts continued till late in the night. Many survivors were shifted to a nearby raised ground where they will camp till water levels recedes in the area, he said.

*13 HOUSES WASHED AWAY*
At least 13 houses were washed away at Uri in north Kashmir&#8217;s Varmul district due to cloudburst.
Reports said that 13 houses were washed away by a breach in local Nallah triggered by a cloudburst last night in Maiyan area of Bijhama.
The locals told Greater Kashmir that nobody from the administration has come to their rescue and they spent night under open sky.

*DAMAGE IN KUPWARA:*
Continuous rains have wreaked havoc in north Kashmir&#8217;s Kupwara district. At least half a dozen houses and two bridges have been washed away by floods triggered by heavy rains. Several villages have been inundated and water is overflowing in Nallah Kahmil and Mawar, reports said.

*HEAVY RAINS CREATE HAVOC IN POONCH, RAJOURI*
SHAFIQ MIR Adds from Rajouri: Unabated rains for the past 36 hours have created havoc in Poonch and Rajouri districts.
Sources said a BSF trooper of 76 Bn, HC Narpat Singh, posted in Balakote sector of district Poonch died when his bunker collapsed. His colleague was critically injured; however he was rescued from the debris.
Four persons were still trapped in different rivers. Deputy Commissioner Rajouri, Ghulam Ahmad Khwaja, said that one Abdul Hamid was trapped in Ans river of Budhal tehsil of the district. He said rescue teams have been pressed into service to save the trapped person.
He said that red alert has been sounded in the entire district with the direction to all tehsil and block level officers to remain present at their respective places of posting. Khwaja said a coordination committee has been constituted with army to meet any challenge if the weather didn&#8217;t improve.
Deputy Commissioner Poonch, Kuldeep Lal Khajuria, said three persons were trapped in Poonch river near Gulpur village.
Beside, he said loss of property was reported from the district which includes four bridges and many government buildings. &#8220;We have also sounded red alert in the entire district,&#8221; said Khajuria. A large number of residential houses have also collapsed in the two districts.


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## Spring Onion

HariSeldon said:


> Jana -
> *Few individuals significantly alter the course of history. Fewer still modify the map of the world. Hardly anyone can be credited with creating a nation-state. Mohammad Ali Jinnah did all three- Stanley Wolpert.*
> 
> Guess what, this Stanley Wolpert guy never had chance to know Indria G. He might have added -
> 
> Mauled the "ally" of Super-power. IG did all four.




Its good that Wolpert didnt know terrorist indira and and her terrorism.

as far as mauling anyone, India failed to even mauled smaller nations in the region despite its superiority what to say about us


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## FlickerSingh

Jana said:


> Its good that Wolpert didnt know terrorist indira and and her terrorism.
> 
> as far as mauling anyone, India failed to even mauled smaller nations in the region despite its superiority what to say about us



her terrorism made you lose a major part of your nation. be nice. or else another indian leader's terrorism may make you lose your entire nation. 

back to the topic now. may this thread be closed on the basis that pakistan should admit that them getting indian kashmir or even another grain of sand from any indian territory is now just a dream on their side. inshallah india will continue to grow and pakistan will continue to lay on its back looking at the stars and dreaming of a messiah who will come down from the heavens to liberate them.


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## Masterchief

Jana said:


> Kashmiris dont call themselves Indians. They are NOT Indians. thats the main point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Watch out your mouth. We are much better than bharti munafiqs



have you been ever in kashmir , you are not the one to decide that, a part of kashmiris think they are not indians, they are people who spit in the same plate they eat, if they dont like india they better move to pakistan but they dont do that because they have jobs here, and they know about the conditions in pak occupied kashmir, if pakistan ever wanted kashmir then it should not have had gone to a level of massacre in 1948,pakistan then sealed its fate because the jammu and kashmir ruler quickly signed the treaty to join india in order to save his people over there


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## Spring Onion

FlickerSingh said:


> her terrorism made you lose a major part of your nation. be nice. or else another indian leader's terrorism may make you lose your entire nation.



Thank for accepting Indira was one of the terrorists. and India did state terrorist.

The rest of your comment is laughable not worth replying.




> back to the topic now. may this thread be closed on the basis that pakistan should admit that them getting indian kashmir or even another grain of sand from any indian territory is now just a dream on their side. inshallah india will continue to grow and pakistan will continue to lay on its back looking at the stars and dreaming of a messiah who will come down from the heavens to liberate them.



Sorry we are not going to admit that and India is not going to win the Kashmiris simple as that.


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## Raghu

Jana said:


> That is NO personal remark. he claims to be a Muslim who married to a Hindu and his sister married off to a hindu man as well, with his entire family being puppet of Indian occupied govt shows he is cashing the blood of Innocent Kashmiris.



I can n't fathom how a muslim cant himself muslim no more just becuse he marris a hindu or his sister married off to a hindu and becomes puppets of Indin govt.U are talking like some mullah Dadullh.I take severe reservation to such mentality.




> It is not about religion, it is about his deep rooted Indian links.
> 
> Your remarks about Kashmiri leaders was linked to puppets like farooq Abdullah and likes of his son who's pic with women you have posted so the bottom line is they are Indian puppets and the Indian puppets are supposed to be marry making instead of guiding the Kashmiri youth



My remarks about criminal inaction and lack of maturity of Kashmiri leadership. But he isn't a puppet of indian Govt and he is democratically elected leader of Kashmir

You can of course u blame him for not being a pakistani puppet like the Hurriyat gang.


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## desiman

Asim Aquil said:


> Indians cannot justify killing Kashmiris just because they are beating them up. Kashmiris have been invaded and are being killed in PROVEN faked encounters. By a pure moral stand point it is within the rights of Kashmiris to kill their Indian occupiers but the Indian occupiers are not within their rights to kill them back - this is not self-defence on the part of the Indians but on the Kashmiris.
> 
> *The honorable thing for the Indians to do is to shut up, sit tight and get killed.*



let me assure you that we dont sit tight and be killed, we will slaughterer not only the criminals but also the masters behind them. We have done it before and will we do it again, dont provoke us. Kashmir is our internal problem, dont poke your nose into someone else matter, because then if you do, dont cry when we poke our heads into yours. Best choice for you is to forget Kashmir and talk peace with us, or else we can continue fighting which we can afford but you cant.

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## Jade

It is utterly nonsense to say that Omar is an Indian government Puppet. Have people forgotten that he was elected by the Kashmiries themselves? However, the situation is grave. Omar seems not to have control over situation&#8230;we simply cannot alienate our own people.

The situation require a political solution. A solution that is within Indian Constitution


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## desiman

jade1982 said:


> It is utterly nonsense to say that Omar is an Indian Puppet. Have people forgotten that he was elected by the Kashmiries themselves? However, the situation is grave. Omar seems not to have control over situationwe simply cannot alienate our own people.
> 
> The situation require a political solution. A solution that is within Indian Constitution



dont worry they are blind and wont understand that logic, when it comes to Kashmir, most people just can talk war and killing but dont want to understand the actual issue. The Abdullahs have done a lot of Kashmir and its people, and are more concerned about its well being that some internet warriors on here. Threatening to blow each other up on some forum is very easy but actually changing things on the ground is a different story. My salute to this great family.

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## Spring Onion

Raghu said:


> I can n't fathom how a muslim cant himself muslim no more just becuse he marris a hindu or his sister married off to a hindu and becomes puppets of Indin govt.U are talking like some mullah Dadullh.I take severe reservation to such mentality.



I have no problem he can marry A B C or a dog thats not my issue. The point is that his father was Indian puppet so does he.

As far as your reservation well You are Nobody neither your opinion affect my health.






> My remarks about criminal inaction and lack of maturity of Kashmiri leadership. But he isn't a puppet of indian Govt and he is democratically elected leader of Kashmir
> 
> You can of course u blame him for not being a pakistani puppet like the Hurriyat gang.




Selection NOT election. that too at gun point in Occupied Kashmir


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## karan.1970

Jana said:


> That is NO personal remark. he claims to be a Muslim who married to a Hindu and his sister married off to a hindu man as well, with his entire family being puppet of Indian occupied govt shows he is cashing the blood of Innocent Kashmiris.
> 
> 
> It is not about religion, it is about his deep rooted Indian links.
> 
> Your remarks about Kashmiri leaders was linked to puppets like farooq Abdullah and likes of his son who's pic with women you have posted so the bottom line is they are Indian puppets and the Indian puppets are supposed to be marry making instead of guiding the Kashmiri youth



You do know of super prominent Pakistani personalities whose blood relations married into India.. Are you willing to call those specific people also as puppets.

And please.. Dont go into the realm of calling Indian leaders as terrorists. Understand that loved leaders exist on your side also and can be abused as well. Please maintain some sanity here...

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## Iggy

Jana said:


> I have no problem he can marry A B C or a dog thats not my issue. The point is that his father was Indian puppet so does he.
> 
> As far as your reservation well You are Nobody neither your opinion affect my health.



He is elected by the people of Kashmir..so you think they are also puppets of India??



> Selection NOT election. that too at gun point in Occupied Kashmir



Proove it...no body is forcing anybody to vote in my country..if they hate him..they can stay away from voting..flawed argument Jana ..


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## Raghu

desiman said:


> dont worry they are blind and wont understand that logic, when it comes to Kashmir, most people just can talk war and killing but dont want to understand the actual issue. The Abdullahs have done a lot of Kashmir and its people, and are more concerned about its well being that some internet warriors on here. Threatening to blow each other up on some forum is very easy but actually changing things on the ground is a different story. My salute to this great family.



Desi,

u cant absolve Abdullah family of its responsibility in the current crisis.
Especially CM Omar Abdullah turn out to be not mature enough handle a sensitive state like Kashmir.

Its often said people of Kashmir voted for hoping Farukh Abdullah would the CM, but due pressure from ally partner congress and insistence of Rahul Gandhi who is good friend of Omar Abdullah ,he became the CM of Kashmir instead.

Irrespective of what party circle media in New delhi projected of Omar, he prove to be too immature,failed to connect and win trust of common people of kashmir so far as CM of J&K.


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## GUNNER

*Kashmiris Storm the Street, Defying Curfew*

*By LYDIA POLGREEN*

NEW DELHI  Hundreds of people defied round-the-clock curfews in the disputed province of Kashmir on Wednesday, torching police vehicles in the streets of the states summer capital, Srinagar, shouting Azadi, or freedom, and chanting anti-Indian slogans. 

Dozens of people have died this summer in violence in Kashmir, which is claimed by both India and Pakistan, and the unrest has prompted new questions about the states leaders ability to control the restive region. Despite the security forces shoot-on-sight orders to enforce a curfew aimed at cooling rage on the streets, hundreds of people openly took to the streets Wednesday, to no apparent consequence. 

Omar Abdullah, the states chief minister, rushed to New Delhi on Monday to ask for more troops to help quell the protests, and reinforcements, including a specially trained riot control team, are on the way, according to government officials. 

But more security forces are unlikely to solve the most immediate problem: angry protests, often including stone-pelting mobs of young men and boys, that government forces respond to by firing live bullets into the crowd. The resulting deaths beget yet more protests, which lead to more killing. 

This cycle  of protest, killings, then more protests  has gripped Kashmir all summer and shows no signs of abating. If anything, Kashmiris seem more emboldened to defy curfew than they were last month, when the death of a student prompted two weeks of violent protests that ultimately ended only when the Indian Army was called in. 

There is a standoff at this moment, said Prem Shankar Jha, a political analyst who has written about Kashmir for decades. Curfew is broken, the authority of the state government is gone. 

Both India and Pakistan claim the Kashmir Valley, a predominantly Muslim region which was divided between the countries more than 60 years ago. But many Kashmiris want independence, and in the 1990s an insurgency, fought by militants trained in Pakistan, ripped through the region. In recent years armed revolt has all but disappeared, only to be replaced by a new kind of warrior  the stone-throwing youth. 

India has struggled to counter Kashmirs often-violent protests, which have flared the past three summers with increasing ferocity. The protesters may not have guns, but they can inflict serious injury. P. Chidambaram, Indias home minister, told the lower house of Parliament on Wednesday that 1,266 security personnel members had been injured in 872 stone-throwing incidents. 

Violence and curfews have left many Kashmiris feeling trapped between bullets and stones. 

Even animals in the zoo see the light of the day, we are even bereft of that, said Seerat Zahra, who lives in Srinagar and saw Indian security forces fire on a crowd of protesters outside her door on Tuesday. We cant even move out or look outside from the window. It is suffocating. 

Children are unable to attend school, residents said, receiving assignments by e-mail. Life is on hold. 

It has been more than a month  they havent been to school, not opened their books, their exams are coming up, Nafeesa Ali, a teacher, said of her two children. We are not getting proper food to eat. I am cooking whatever vegetables I have grown in my backyard. 

It wont last for now another three days now. God knows when this circle of violence will end.


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## jbond197

graphican said:


> Sucidal Attacks expression of desperation are result of the "hit" which Taliban received from PA. Surely suicidal attack hurt but thats reaction of a cat that is cornered.. now I expect you at least understand what is purpose and job of a secret service and what not. Even if they "remain fail" to stop these terrorist attacks, they have been successful in exciting millions of Kashmirs and get down USA and NATO and previously USSR down to its knees. So they are pretty well doing what is their job. And since Indian sides cannot stop talking about them, it says how good they at their job. Hehe..



What ever but it is for ISI to gather intelligence on those who are targetting their offices and killing civillians. I think you will agree with me on this. Yes they are able to place a bunch of terrorists in Kashmir but its just laughable that you believe there are millions of them. Do show us proof on that else don't make fake claims here.

Coming to US & NATO
You are getting down US and NATO on knees  what can I say after reading this? BTW the way the whole world see is they take orders from US and NATO and get hard cash for executing US/NATO orders by sacrifing the people of land. 

About USSR, dude get serious do you really think it was not US which forced USSR out of Afghanistan? Pakistan was just a puppet and your resources were used by them for US war and you got money & militaty equipment for letting them use ur resources.

If you take pride in all this then I agree ISI is doing a good job.




> So 700,000 soldiers and every resource you had remain to stop one "puppet" man leading the millions and driving them on the roads? Gillani is Pakistani for sure, every Kashmiri is Pakistani under the occupation of India.



We don't want to kill him as he is just a small mosquito and will die his natural death. why kill him to make him a martyr of some terrorists? I seriously need to ask you where did you get to know that there are millions of followers of Geelani. all I can see is bunch stone pelting kids who are stopped from creating Law and Order mess in Srinagar and if you count them as millions then buddy, you serously need help. Let me make one thing clear to u that none of the Kashmiri is pakistani. Even citizens of Pakistani adminitered Kashmir and NA are not Pakistani. So don't u flatter urself.




> Only if you could read the last paragraph and understand what it is saying.. replying to you must have been a lot purposeful. Try again



Not worth replying to coz I don't know what was the purpose of your comment? so i will not waste my time.


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## linkinpark

These guys might be civilians but they are rioters, arsonists who stone-pelt, damage public and private property. There is nothing wrong in shooting these instigators if they threaten the security. See in the pictures what I meant.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Kashmir and the World​*


> US Congressman Joe Pitts has joined the rising chorus of protest against the atrocities being committed by the Indian occupation forces on the people of Kashmir, while they only demand the fulfillment of Indias solemn commitment to the international community, in the shape of allowing the Kashmiri people to exercise their inherent right to self-determination.
> 
> While speaking at a conference on Kashmir on Capitol Hill, he also noted that US Special Representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, Richard Holbrooke, did not even use the word Kashmir. The speech more or less coincided with the Indian occupiers killing seven innocent Kashmiris, which also marked the third straight day of protest which took the death toll at the hands of the Indian occupiers to 30.
> 
> This was evidence of how international opinion is mounting against the Indian occupation, but this also pointed to how the world capitals, because of narrow individual interests, are busy currying favour with India, the latest example being British PM David Camerons statement.
> 
> The USA wants to build up India as its regional bulwark against China, and thus toes the Indian line on Kashmir, no matter how blatant the Indian refusal to obey the international communitys decision on how to determine the will of the Kashmiri people. There might have been some arguments based on expediency in favour of this Indian view, but ever since the present generation of Kashmiris showed their readiness to sacrifice their lives, it does not wash any longer.
> 
> The Kashmiri people are being made to pay for two things: first that their occupiers are Indians, and second, that they themselves are Muslims. Because of this, the world community has given India a free hand and has allowed the unjust slaughter of the Kashmiri people.
> 
> A change seems to have begun, perhaps because the occupation has become too overt to be ignored. The world community continues to ignore its own UNSC resolutions on the subject. However, Congressman Pitts rightly joins UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon in noting the bloody results of Indias illegal occupation, and so should all those of good conscience throughout the world. It is not just a matter of keeping two nuclear-armed neighbours (and thus certainly the region, perhaps the entire world) at peace, but also providing justice to a beleaguered people, hard-done-by.




Kashmir and the world | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## Spring Onion

linkinpark said:


> These guys might be civilians but they are rioters, arsonists who stone-pelt, damage public and private property. There is nothing wrong in shooting these instigators if they threaten the security. See in the pictures what I meant.



The only instigators in Held Kashmir are Indian terrorist forces that instigate such protests by killing Kashmiri youth and kids alike.


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## linkinpark

Jana said:


> The only instigators in Held Kashmir are Indian terrorist forces that instigate such protests by killing Kashmiri youth and kids alike.



Yeah Right!!

By the way, why the heck this kids are pelting stones and throwing flames instead of studying in the school. Previously, J&K police have busted such stone-pelting cartels. So, there is no reason to not believe who is behind these rioting and arson.


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## RollingStones

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> *Kashmir and the World​*
> 
> 
> Kashmir and the world | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online



I see Kashmir and other parts of India as a "joblessness" problem. Nothing more, nothing less. If these guys want to get better, they need to organize politically, fight elections, win power and improve the lot of their people. Freedom and a separate entity wont solve their problems. They are wasting their time and their lives. A new Kashmir country could set back its economic agenda by more than 50 years, leading to lawless people taking to perhaps even terrorism, which is something the world does not want. Kashmiris first need to show the world that they can contest within the Indian election system and prove to the world that they are unable to win because of government rigging. If they do that, the international community will step in and try to get India to grant freedom. Every other effort is a waste of time, lives and money. I really do not know what some of these abject looking Kashmiris are up to. They need to get their act together and act in their self interests and not keep rioting/arsoning, which will not get any consideration from the world at large.


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## karan.1970

Damage control? UN denies chief's Kashmir remark

* Damage control? UN denies chief's Kashmir remark *


*United Nations: In an apparent damage control, the United Nations (UN) has communicated to the Indian government that the remarks on Kashmir made by the Secretary-General Ban Ki Moon were not a statement but a "press guidance that was taken out of context." *

Ban's chief spokesperson Martin Nesirky told PTI that the remark on the situation in Kashmir valley was not a statement made by Ban but it was "information provided by the secretariat distributed by the spokespersons office." The remark has not gone down well in the Indian government. An annoyed Ministry of External Affairs had asked the UN to clarify. 

*The associate spokesperson, Farhan Haq*, who originally sent the information by email to journalists has said that while this was not a statement made by Ban, "it was all generated by the UN." 

Nesirky said the email was "media guidance taken out of context." 


UN observers said the nature of the remarks, however, do not sound like a "press guidance", as the world body appeared to work out ways to defuse the controversy without completely disowning its remarks. 

The controversial remarks in the email were as follows: "In relation to recent developments in Indian-administered Kashmir, the Secretary-General is concerned over the prevailing security situation there over the past month. 

"He calls on all concerned to exercise utmost restraint and address problems peacefully." 

The remarks in the email also touched on the composite dialogue between India and Pakistan. 

"He (Ban) encourages both sides to rekindle the spirit of the composite dialogue, which was initiated in 2004 and had made encouraging progress on some important confidence building measures, and to make renewed efforts to address outstanding issues, including on Jammu and Kashmir," the email reads. 


Read more at: http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/damage-control-un-denies-chiefs-kashmir-remark-41872?cp


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## karan.1970

Ban Ki Moon denies his statement on Kashmir

On Jul 29, a statement was released by Farhan Haq. a spokesperson of Ban Ki-Moon, Secretary General, U.N. expressing concern over the unrest in Kashmir and calling for &#8220;utmost restraint&#8221; on all concerned. The Ministry of External Affairs, Government of India, took a serious objection to the purported statement of the Secretary General. Now the U.N. have come out with a denial stating that the statement was &#8220;just guidance, and not a formal statement&#8221;.

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## linkinpark

Abu Zolfiqar said:


>



If they are innocent they would not be pelting stones and throwing flames. They are by no degree are innocent people but are paid goondas to carry out the instigation and riot. They got what they have asked for. Violence begets violence. Peace begets peace. If they protest peacefully, I'm sure there is no reason for kashmiri police to kill a fellow kashmiri.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

linkinpark said:


> If they are innocent they would not be pelting stones and throwing flames. They are by no degree are innocent people but are paid goondas to carry out the instigation and riot. They got what they have asked for. Violence begets violence. Peace begets peace. If they protest peacefully, I'm sure there is no reason for kashmiri police to kill a fellow kashmiri.



They are under occupation and the Indian government has not indicated it is willing to discuss self-determination, people are bound to get frustrated - in real life people act out when frustrations and anger boil over. That does not make them 'goons and terrorists' it makes them people frustrated and angry at oppression and occupation by an external power, in this case India.


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## Star of David

Sorry Jana but Kashmir is ours and will always be ours! If you want a plebiscite or referendum. we'll give you one after we move in millions of Hindus and Buddhists. Thanks...


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

linkinpark said:


> One can always trust the hand of Pakistan in such mischief


Are you sure he is Pakistani? My understanding is that he is Pakistani origin, I have not yet tracked down what nationality exactly.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> They are under occupation and the Indian government has not indicated it is willing to discuss self-determination, people are bound to get frustrated - in real life people act out when frustrations and anger boil over. That does not make them 'goons and terrorists' it makes them people frustrated and angry at oppression and occupation by an external power, in this case India.



Well, frustrated or not, when one crosses the line, one should be ready to bear the consequences ..Sad that they are getting manipulated into losing their lives, in this case by Pakistan.. Nothing much will come out of this nonsense except every thing going back by a couple of years...


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## graphican

seiko said:


> This is not the maximum way its just the another way when previous way had failed..people came there from different part of the world in the name of religion and money to have proxy war and it had been backfired now they are changing the stand to look it like the victims..



It wasn't the Kashmir Movement which backfire, but the Kargil Conflict for which Musharaf felt guilty himself and was later looking to surrender literally everything India wanted. Kashmir's are still the way they were except they are not into hot conflict with Indian occupation yet. Do you think the way this movement is going would end up at helplessly approving Indian rule? At-least 60 years are witness they didn't loose their momentum, rather gained with time and sacrificed even more for the same cause.. Liberation from Indian Occupation.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Star of David said:


> Sorry Jana but Kashmir is ours and will always be ours! If you want a plebiscite or referendum. we'll give you one after we move in millions of Hindus and Buddhists. Thanks...



That would mean ethnic cleansing in a way of the local Muslims - by that yardstick you would also find the massacring of those 'millions of Hindus and Buddhists' by those defending their homeland to be completely acceptable.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Are you sure he is Pakistani? My understanding is that he is Pakistani origin, I have not yet tracked down what nationality exactly.



Yes.. Pakistani origin.. Father I think is/was a prominent journalist in Pakistan...


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Well, frustrated or not, when one crosses the line, one should be ready to bear the consequences ..Sad that they are getting manipulated into losing their lives, in this case by Pakistan.. Nothing much will come out of this nonsense except every thing going back by a couple of years...



Pakistan is not the one occupying and oppressing the Kashmiris and refusing them their promised right of self-determination.

Nice attempt at scapegoating Pakistan to avoid the fact that India is detested in the Valley. This is all India's fault.

The kashmiris should be allowed to decide their destiny through plebiscite as promised them.


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## Spring Onion

linkinpark said:


> Yeah Right!!
> 
> By the way, why the heck this kids are pelting stones and throwing flames instead of studying in the school. Previously, J&K police have busted such stone-pelting cartels. So, there is no reason to not believe who is behind these rioting and arson.



Because their schools are occupied by terrorist army of India.

Because their parents are being killed by Indian terrorist army.

Because their resources are sucked by terrorist state of India


as far as Indian sheepish claims of ISI behind these stones well  lolzz there is no sillier claim than this.

may be these stones are made in Pakistan too

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Yes.. Pakistani origin.. Father I think is/was a prominent journalist in Pakistan...



Then why call him a Pakistani?

And the UN has not denied that the comments were made, but that they were 'guidance' rather than a 'formal statement' - but either way comments made.


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## linkinpark

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> They are under occupation and the Indian government has not indicated it is willing to discuss self-determination, people are bound to get frustrated - in real life people act out when frustrations and anger boil over. That does not make them 'goons and terrorists' it makes them people frustrated and angry at oppression and occupation by an external power, in this case India.



They are under no occupation. They are legally part of India according to instrument of accession signed by Maharaja Hari Singh. Anger is not just localized to kashmir, it is also seen other states but people are not rioting in other states like in kashmir valley. All this drama started in 1990s and everybody and their son knows who started it. It didn't start out of no where but due to active support to militancy by Pakistan. Now that we have suppressed the militancy, some jobless people due to the lure of money picking up stones and pelting at security forces and thus the resultant blow back which is being used as a way to instigate people of the valley to create trouble. Nothing less, nothing more. But, eventually this will come to an end just like the militancy has come to an end. India has all the resources, patience and time required to deal with this situation and will be dealt accordingly.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That would mean ethnic cleansing in a way of the local Muslims - by that yardstick you would also find the massacring of those 'millions of Hindus and Buddhists' by those defending their homeland to be completely acceptable.



why would increasing population of a particular religion amount to ethnic cleansing?? He is not refering to muslims being moved or killed. 

I dont agree to the statement and the concept of plebiscite, but I think you are not applying the right lense here..


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## linkinpark

Jana said:


> Because their schools are occupied by terrorist army of India.
> 
> Because their parents are being killed by Indian terrorist army.
> 
> Because their resources are sucked by terrorist state of India
> 
> 
> *as far as Indian sheepish claims of ISI behind these stones well  lolzz there is no sillier claim than this.*
> 
> may be these stones are made in Pakistan too



Its the same old whining.

Regarding stone-pelting as a business, here you go

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...ecomes-lucrative-business-kashmir-valley.html

Stone pelting and protests turn a business in J&K


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> why would increasing population of a particular religion amount to ethnic cleansing?? He is not refering to muslims being moved or killed.
> 
> I dont agree to the statement and the concept of plebiscite, but I think you are not applying the right lense here..


Millions being moved in deliberately by the State to dilute the population of locals and likely take over their lands and livelihood and resources.

People have a right to fight back to defend their way of life, lands and property, and likely their lives.


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## graphican

karan.1970 said:


> None of the bold part in your post is dependent on the UN resolution since hatered does not look for UN permission. In the same spirit, will you also admit the same thing about *Balochis and Sindhis to begin with about their want of separation from Pakistan..>???*



HEHE.. you are desperate to find a weakness in Pakistan to justify your own flaws. But no sir, we haven't put restrictions on International Media to go there, neither we have cut down their SMS/Phone services, neither have killed scores of people and neither we are employing 50% of our military in those areas for the sake of "crunching freedom fighters". So wake-up and see what you are trying to compare with who. Baluchistan has problems but they demand bigger share of finances and right of their natural resources.

Surely hatred doesn't look for UN permission and neither it asks about regulations written in Indian constitution. Kashmiris like very other human on earth has right to be free and be part of the country they choose. But whatever they choose, they have chosen not to be part of India at-least. Is that emotion not clear yet?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

linkinpark said:


> Its the same old whining.
> 
> Regarding stone-pelting as a business, here you go
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...ecomes-lucrative-business-kashmir-valley.html
> 
> Stone pelting and protests turn a business in J&K



Yet more propaganda by the Indian media to scapegoat anyone they can find, except recognize India's crime of occupation and oppression.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Then why call him a Pakistani?
> 
> And the UN has not denied that the comments were made, but that they were 'guidance' rather than a 'formal statement' - but either way comments made.



_Yes.. But this guy first sent these out as a statement from the Sec Gen and later when got in a pickle, backtracked.._

Despite denials, UN statement on J&K is a mystery: Rediff.com India News

United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon never made any remark on the state of affairs in Jammu and Kashmir [ Images ], neither did he make any statement on the state as has been alleged in media reports, and "the matter is settled", highly placed Indian diplomatic sources said Tuesday. 

Reports last week, including in the Indian media, said Ban has expressed concern over the recent unrest in Kashmir. *Press Trust of India, among others, quoted Ban's associate spokesperson Farhan Haq that in relation to recent developments in Jammu and Kashmir, the UN Secretary General is concerned over the prevailing security situation there over the past month. 'He calls on all concerned to exercise utmost restraint and address problems peacefully,*' it added. 

India's Permanent Mission to the UN, led by Ambassador Hardeep Puri, took up the issue with the Secretary General on Monday and was assured that Ban never made any such statement. "It was supposed to be a press guidance issued by the Secretary General's office. And that is all," the sources said. "*In fact, during the noon briefing on July 28, which Haq referred to, no question was asked about Jammu and Kashmir.*" 

Farhan, a former journalist who had worked with the Inter Press Service at the UN for a long time before taking up the UN job, later clarified that while the e-mail was not a statement by Ban, it was handed by the United Nations, according to media reports. *It was not clear who handed him the press guidance.*

On Tuesday, Ban's chief spokesperson Martin Nesirky too said the purported remark on the situation in Kashmir valley was not a statement made by Ban but was 'information provided by the UN secretariat and distributed by the spokespersons office.' *Nesirky said the email was 'media guidance taken out of context.'*

"*The United Nations is certainly not in a mood to make Jammu and Kashmir an issue as far as India is concerned*. The world body knows what is happening in Jammu and Kashmir. There is no doubt after the inquiry at the highest level that Ban never issued such a statement at all," the sources said. 

"*The spokesperson issued the e-mail on his own, misquoting the secretary general. *And some of the separatist leaders tried to exploit it by claiming that the SG is calling for dialogue between India and Pakistan on the Kashmir issue," the sources said. "The issue has been settled despite what some news media is claiming."

"Had there been any truth in this, the Indian Permanent Mission would have taken it up with the SG's office and issued a condemnation. But there was no such case."

But what remained unclear was whether Haq jumped the gun or made an unauthorised statement by the Haq?

Despite repeated questions as to whether it was a statement or 'guidance' at Tuesday's noon briefing, Nesirky would not make any comment except saying that it was issued by SG's secretariat as guidance. To a pointed question at the briefing Tuesday as to whether it constitutes an unauthorised statement, Nesirky parried a reply. 'I have said what I wanted to say.'

*Haq is the son of celebrated Pakistani economist Mahbub ul Haq*, founder of the UN Human Development Report along with Nobel Laureate Amartya Sen [ Images ].


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## Spring Onion

linkinpark said:


> Its the same old whining.
> 
> Regarding stone-pelting as a business, here you go
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...ecomes-lucrative-business-kashmir-valley.html
> 
> Stone pelting and protests turn a business in J&K



zee news lolzzz.

please go and read the statement of Indian puppet Omar Abdullah even the puppet had made fun of Indian claims about stone pelting.

He has stated some reasons please go and find that.

On a side note if it was a lucrative business than why dont bharti occupiers offer better amount and incentives and then see if it is a business or real protests.

I bet India will loose again


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

linkinpark said:


> All this drama started in 1990s and everybody and their son knows who started it. It didn't start out of no where but due to active support to militancy by Pakistan.



Indians are still not ready to admit what their country has done to Jammu & Kashmir, a lie being told there since 1947. I don't even know why we allow them here to be honest.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Millions being moved in deliberately by the State to dilute the population of locals and likely take over their lands and livelihood and resources.
> 
> People have a right to fight back to defend their way of life, lands and property, and likely their lives.



Lets not create sound bytes here.. This is neither happening nor recommended. It is a comment by a PDF member on a forum which by no strech of imagination amounts to ethnic cleansing. Lets not get into the zone of sensationalism here..


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> _Yes.. But this guy first sent these out as a statement from the Sec Gen and later when got in a pickle, backtracked.._
> 
> Despite denials, UN statement on J&K is a mystery: Rediff.com India News
> 
> United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon never made any remark on the state of affairs in Jammu and Kashmir [ Images ], neither did he make any statement on the state as has been alleged in media reports, and "the matter is settled", highly placed Indian diplomatic sources said Tuesday.
> 
> Reports last week, including in the Indian media, said Ban has expressed concern over the recent unrest in Kashmir. *Press Trust of India, among others, quoted Ban's associate spokesperson Farhan Haq that in relation to recent developments in Jammu and Kashmir, the UN Secretary General is concerned over the prevailing security situation there over the past month. 'He calls on all concerned to exercise utmost restraint and address problems peacefully,*' it added.
> 
> India's Permanent Mission to the UN, led by Ambassador Hardeep Puri, took up the issue with the Secretary General on Monday and was assured that Ban never made any such statement. "It was supposed to be a press guidance issued by the Secretary General's office. And that is all," the sources said. "*In fact, during the noon briefing on July 28, which Haq referred to, no question was asked about Jammu and Kashmir.*"
> 
> Farhan, a former journalist who had worked with the Inter Press Service at the UN for a long time before taking up the UN job, later clarified that while the e-mail was not a statement by Ban, it was handed by the United Nations, according to media reports. *It was not clear who handed him the press guidance.*
> 
> On Tuesday, Ban's chief spokesperson Martin Nesirky too said the purported remark on the situation in Kashmir valley was not a statement made by Ban but was 'information provided by the UN secretariat and distributed by the spokespersons office.' *Nesirky said the email was 'media guidance taken out of context.'*
> 
> "*The United Nations is certainly not in a mood to make Jammu and Kashmir an issue as far as India is concerned*. The world body knows what is happening in Jammu and Kashmir. There is no doubt after the inquiry at the highest level that Ban never issued such a statement at all," the sources said.
> 
> "*The spokesperson issued the e-mail on his own, misquoting the secretary general. *And some of the separatist leaders tried to exploit it by claiming that the SG is calling for dialogue between India and Pakistan on the Kashmir issue," the sources said. "The issue has been settled despite what some news media is claiming."
> 
> "Had there been any truth in this, the Indian Permanent Mission would have taken it up with the SG's office and issued a condemnation. But there was no such case."
> 
> But what remained unclear was whether Haq jumped the gun or made an unauthorised statement by the Haq?
> 
> Despite repeated questions as to whether it was a statement or 'guidance' at Tuesday's noon briefing, Nesirky would not make any comment except saying that it was issued by SG's secretariat as guidance. To a pointed question at the briefing Tuesday as to whether it constitutes an unauthorised statement, Nesirky parried a reply. 'I have said what I wanted to say.'
> 
> *Haq is the son of celebrated Pakistani economist Mahbub ul Haq*, founder of the UN Human Development Report along with Nobel Laureate Amartya Sen [ Images ].


Most of the above, including the part attributing malicious intent to Haq, is commentary by the Indian paper. The only factual part is that the UN accepted the fact that it made those comments, though in a different context, and that there is in fact an email justifying that. Quite frankly, Haq cannot be blamed here. The SG is not going to be cautioning the UN staff to 'exercise restraint and engage in the composite dialog' - obviously those comments were meant for the concerned parties.

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## Spring Onion

karan.1970 said:


> Lets not create sound bytes here.. This is neither happening nor recommended. It is a comment by a PDF member on a forum which by no strech of imagination amounts to ethnic cleansing. Lets not get into the zone of sensationalism here..



Why not. Indian hardline fundamentalists parties even proposed Israel style settlement in Occupied Kashmir to change the demography


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## linkinpark

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Millions being moved in deliberately by the State to dilute the population of locals and likely take over their lands and livelihood and resources.
> 
> People have a right to fight back to defend their way of life, lands and property, and likely their lives.



Its nothing but Goebbels. According to article 370, anyone outside of J&K are not allowed to buy or own land or property in J&K. Then how is it possible to settle people by millions. 

Nobody took the lands or property from Kashmiris. They are free to use their property as they see fit.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Lets not create sound bytes here.. This is neither happening nor recommended. It is a comment by a PDF member on a forum which by no strech of imagination amounts to ethnic cleansing. Lets not get into the zone of sensationalism here..



And my response was to that PDF member, based on his comments. You chose to interject in my exchange with him, and my subsequent responses were in response to your comments.


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## karan.1970

graphican said:


> HEHE.. you are desperate to find a weakness in Pakistan to justify your own flaws. But no sir, we haven't put restrictions on International Media to go there, neither we have cut down their SMS/Phone services, neither have killed scores of people and neither we are employing 50% of our military in those areas for the sake of "crunching freedom fighters". So wake-up and see what you are trying to compare with who. Baluchistan has problems but they demand bigger share of finances and right of their natural resources.
> 
> Surely hatred doesn't look for UN permission and neither it asks about regulations written in Indian constitution. Kashmiris like very other human on earth has right to be free and be part of the country they choose. But whatever they choose, they have chosen not to be part of India at-least. Is that emotion not clear yet?



Lets not get into the details of Balochistan etc since the thread will go in a different direction. However to your last sentence, whoever doesnt want to be a part of India is most welcome to leave..No one is holding him or her back.. Lets see if Pakistan is after the land or is compassionate about so called Kashmiri brothers


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

linkinpark said:


> Its nothing but Goebbels. According to article 370, anyone outside of J&K are not allowed to buy or own land or property in J&K. Then how is it possible to settle people by millions.
> 
> Nobody took the lands or property from Kashmiris. They are free to use their property as they see fit.


Read the entire conversation and understand the context before yapping please.

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## Spring Onion

According to Times of India 
*
"More than 30,000 people defied shoot-at-sight orders at Pampore on the Srinagar-Jammu highway to protest the killings."*

Read more: Hurriyat hawk talks peace, raises hope in Kashmir - India - The Times of India Hurriyat hawk talks peace, raises hope in Kashmir - India - The Times of India



I wonder if they are part of any business at the cost of their lives.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And my response was to that PDF member, based on his comments. You chose to interject in my exchange with him, and my subsequent responses were in response to your comments.



Apologies if my butting in was bad manners, but the word used was absolutely not in line with what was being talked about. Changing the demographics even though being underhanded (like in the Northern Areas), is not same as ethnic cleansing. Both you and I know the images that word brings up...


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Lets not get into the details of Balochistan etc since the thread will go in a different direction. However to your last sentence, whoever doesnt want to be a part of India is most welcome to leave..No one is holding him or her back.. Lets see if Pakistan is after the land or is compassionate about so called Kashmiri brothers



Why should the Kashmiris have to give up the land the own and their ancestors lived on? Your argument is rather similar to that of made in favor of demographic engineering by the Indian State by moving in millions of Hindus and Buddhists, except you want to forcibly remove millions first.

It is their land and they have a right to it. The UNSC resolutions and the promises made them by the Indian leadership at partition assured them that.

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## linkinpark

Jana said:


> zee news lolzzz.
> 
> please go and read the statement of Indian puppet Omar Abdullah even the puppet had made fun of Indian claims about stone pelting.
> 
> He has stated some reasons please go and find that.
> 
> On a side note if it was a lucrative business than why dont bharti occupiers offer better amount and incentives and then see if it is a business or real protests.
> 
> *I bet India will loose again*



Omar Abdullah is democratically elected CM just like previous CM Mehbooba Mufti. So, he is no puppet.

India never lost the battles it fought against Pakistan. You can daydream but it is not going to change anything on ground. Nothing changed in 60 yrs and nothing will change in future as well.


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## Dance

Not surprised at all, its just 45 since June but imagine how many have been killed overall by the "shining" indian army/ security forces. If they haven't already, india will probably justify their terrorism by saying that all the women/children/innocent people they have killed were all ISI sponsored terrorists.


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## karan.1970

Jana said:


> According to Times of India
> *
> "More than 30,000 people defied shoot-at-sight orders at Pampore on the Srinagar-Jammu highway to protest the killings."*
> 
> Read more: Hurriyat hawk talks peace, raises hope in Kashmir - India - The Times of India Hurriyat hawk talks peace, raises hope in Kashmir - India - The Times of India
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if they are part of any business at the cost of their lives.



Jana, they are also playing politics. Huriyat had lost a lot of its base support among moderate peace loving Kashmiris over last few years. They are just trying to win in back. 

I give this unfortunate sequence of events another 2 weeks or so before a backroom compromise is reached..


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Apologies if my butting in was bad manners, but the word used was absolutely not in line with what was being talked about. Changing the demographics even though being underhanded (like in the Northern Areas), is not same as ethnic cleansing. Both you and I know the images that word brings up...



Zia tried, but the NA demographics are not really changed, given that the region is still Shia majority and comprised of the local ethnicities. 

Forcibly moving in millions however will result in violence, loss of property and possessions of the locals, and in a way is 'ethnic cleansing' since it seeks to dilute the population of the dominant community.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

RollingStones said:


> I really do not know what some of these abject looking Kashmiris are up to. They need to get their act together and act in their self interests and not keep rioting/arsoning, which will not get any consideration from the world at large.



read AM's summary (as to WHY)


he summed it up very nicely


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## Abu Zolfiqar

linkinpark said:


> Yeah Right!!
> 
> By the way, why the heck this kids are pelting stones and throwing flames instead of studying in the school. Previously, J&K police have busted such stone-pelting cartels. So, there is no reason to not believe who is behind these rioting and arson.





let me guess.....''ISI sponsored'' *cartels*





cartels shmartels.....those are local youth; wouldnt u protest if you were in their position? I know I would!


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Why should the Kashmiris have to give up the land the own and their ancestors lived on? Your argument is rather similar to that of made in favor of demographic engineering by the Indian State by moving in millions of Hindus and Buddhists, except you want to forcibly remove millions first.
> 
> It is their land and they have a right to it. The UNSC resolutions and the promises made them by the Indian leadership at partition assured them that.



Not at all. No one is removing anyone forcefully. Freedom of movement is one of the fundamental rights accorded to all citizens of India. Freedom to move within the country and to move out of the country if they desire. They dont like to live in India, sure, feel free to immigrate to which ever country that will have you . Keep your house / land whatever that you have in your ownership as an NRI as per the laws of India. Laws of India unfortunately do not allow a person to transfer the ownership of the land he owns to the country he immigrates to..

India rejected the applicability of the resolution you are talking of in 1950's . You think its wrong, I think its right and that is where it is. 

Now unless India is militarily beaten down to accept that resolution, its not worth the paper it was written on. We can debate this till cows come home, but that will be just rehashing what has been debated on this forum many times over. 

So the option for those who dont want to live in India is only to get up and go. Upto them if they want to retain the ownership of their land or sell it. No one is forcing them either way.. 

Except, Pakistan may not be very keen to have them without the land (if past precedents are anything to go by).


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## linkinpark

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> let me guess.....''ISI sponsored'' *cartels*
> 
> 
> 
> cartels shmartels.....those are local youth; wouldnt u protest if you were in their position? I know I would!



They may be local youth but jobless youth and are being paid by Hurriyat and other separatist factions to do the pelting. And of course everyone knows who are backing these factions.

May be you would do the same if you are paid. I won't because its my country and they are my people.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Zia tried, but the NA demographics are not really changed, given that the region is still Shia majority and comprised of the local ethnicities.
> 
> Forcibly moving in millions however will result in violence, loss of property and possessions of the locals, and in a way is 'ethnic cleansing' since it seeks to dilute the population of the dominant community.



You are taking the same line as Raj Thakrey with respect to immigrants moving into Mumbai.. 

And again no one is moving anyone anywhere.. Zia atleast tried. India if anything has allowed the Kashmiri Pandit population to dwindle in the Kashmir valley...

G'night for now.. As always, its a pleasure to discuss stuff with you...


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## Abu Zolfiqar

''your people''

okay 


Karan --- sir, it is a land dispute....and we sympathize and show solidarity with the people of the occupied and militarized land


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## linkinpark

Dance said:


> Not surprised at all, its just 45 since June but imagine how many have been killed overall by the "shining" indian army/ security forces. If they haven't already, india will probably justify their terrorism by saying that all the women/children/innocent people they have killed were all ISI sponsored terrorists.



I'm sure the violence will go down once the summer is over and winter begins


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## GreenStar

India should be ashamed of itself........espicially claiming to be a democracy, when it uses violence on those who are not happy under it's rule. 



> May be you would do the same if you are paid. I won't because its my country and they are my people



If that is the case Linkin, then if these people are disrupting life in Kashmir and are delibrately causing trouble......does that not signify that these people don't regard themselves as Indians and want Independence.


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## Dance

linkinpark said:


> I'm sure the violence will go down once the summer is over and winter begins



Are you saying the indian security forces will stop their terrorism in the winter?


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## linkinpark

GreenStar said:


> India should be ashamed of itself........espicially claiming to be a democracy, when it uses violence on those who are not happy under it's rule.
> 
> If that is the case Linkin, then if these people are disrupting life in Kashmir and are delibrately causing trouble......does that not signify that these people don't regard themselves as Indians and want Independence.



There is nothing to be ashamed of. J&K govt. which is democratically elected is doing its job of upholding security and peace in their state. I'm sure J&K police don't take pleasure in killing their fellow kashmiris for no reason. I have already posted the pics of these instigators rioting and violence causing damage to public property and injuring security forces.

There is violence in different parts of the country in India. It doesn't mean that all those want a separate country. Same with Kashmir violence. It will subside once the fuel and ammo runs out.


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## linkinpark

Dance said:


> Are you saying the indian security forces will stop their terrorism in the winter?



No, I meant there will be difficulties in carrying out cross-border instigation anymore, if you know what I mean.

---------- Post added at 09:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 PM ----------

*Militants were among mass protesters in Kashmir: Chidambaram*




> 'There have been instances where the security forces have been fired upon by someone in the protesting crowds. There is reliable intelligence that some armed militants may have mingled with the crowds and fired at the security forces,' he said in a statement in the Lok Sabha on the situation in Jammu and Kashmir.






> Chidambaram said there were 872 stone pelting incidents in June and July and 1,266 security personnel were injured in the last two months.


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## Peshwa

First off.....the current wave of violence should be treated as a law and order situation.....

The 2 parts of Kashmir as a disputed territory is controlled by the Indian and Pakistani Govts in their respective areas of control....

So as long as this dispute is not resolved...the laws of the land apply.....whether it be Indian or Pakistani....Since we do not object on the laws that P-O-K applies to their side....we are free to do the same to maintain law and order to maintain peace.....all this for the safety of Kashmiris itself.... 

In my view, any Kashmiri found breaking the Indian law.....ie. violating a curfew, arson, stone pelting is doing so at their own risk especially when a shoot at sight order has been given as a warning....
Just to make this relevant.....
In the US, when a cop pulls you over, one is supposed to remain in the car....when one disobeys orders, gets out of the car and approaches a cop, the cop can legally fire lethally without consequences as long as warning has been given and he feels that he is in a threatening situation...

As I see it, the mobs are currenlty in violation of Indian laws.....and assaulting state forces....I am glad that the Indian forces have shown such restraint to limit the number of deaths that have taken place....and even then, a majority of the deaths took place in the use of non-deadly methods where rubber and plastic bullets along with fluke tear gas shells killing violators which are internationally recognized crowd control techniques......

As far as Im concerned.....if these crowds are daring to go against the state....they have to be aware of the consequences..... Stones, Lathis, rods etc are weapons and the state forces should do all to bring law and order to the region and to protect themselves....

RIP to those who died....but this should serve as a warning....breaking the law is not acceptable in any part of India....whether it be Kashmir...or Kanyakumari....


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## Dance

linkinpark said:


> No, I meant there will be difficulties in carrying out cross-border instigation anymore, if you know what I mean.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 PM ----------
> 
> *Militants were among mass protesters in Kashmir: Chidambaram*



Well I guess I was right about indian fear of ISI


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## deckingraj

GreenStar said:


> India should be ashamed of itself........espicially claiming to be a democracy, when it uses violence on those who are not happy under it's rule.



So you mean if crowd takes law into their hands democracy set-up should say please do it since you are our people we should not use force??? That's really thoughtful....I am sure this is what Britain follows but since we are a third world country we are yet to learn such noble ideas....



> If that is the case Linkin, then if these people are disrupting life in Kashmir and are delibrately causing trouble......does that not signify that these people don't regard themselves as Indians and want Independence.



You mean the unruly crowd??? population of J&K is approx 10 Million...Are you saying all these people came on street??? Those who do not consider India as their nation are free to leave the country...We will very happily say good bye to them...for rest they need their lives back and these idiots out there are just keeping their lives hostage to curfews and what not.....


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## GreenStar

> There is nothing to be ashamed of. J&K govt. which is democratically elected is doing its job of upholding security and peace in their state.



Lol if the Indian goverment was upholding security and peace in the State......then why are 45 civilians are dead. Clearly people are not happy living under Indian rule.



> I'm sure J&K police don't take pleasure in killing their fellow kashmiris for no reason.



Then why are there 45 people dead, clearly they do take pleasure in killing Kashmiri's because otherwise they would not have resorted to such actions. In the UK if the police did that, there would be a public outcry, to such action. And this is proven in this case:

Video reveals G20 police assault on Ian Tomlinson moments before he died | UK news | The Guardian

G20 Riots: Ian Tomlinson 'attack officer' PC Simon Harwood pictured for first time - Telegraph

Like wise any Indian Soilder or police that is caught killing a Kashmiri should be put on trial.


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> India should be ashamed of itself........espicially claiming to be a democracy, when it uses violence on those who are not happy under it's rule.



I think people use words like democracy quite liberally without understanding the fundamentals of the concept....

Democracy is a way of governance...where people choose their elected rulers who are able to work towards the benefit of the people that elected them....NOT ask for seperate countries....regions and anything under the sun that people "wish" for thinking that democracy will provide if for them...

And if so....For Kashmir to be free.....Under true democratic ideals, the country of India should take a vote on all decisions...which is rather impossible.....

If the govt of India retsrained itself from attacking Pakistan post 26/11 even though public sentiment....the power that fuels democracy...wanted our army to take action......then Kashmir issue falls way behind many other issues at hand.....since the volume of people who want Kashmir to be part of India overrides those who dont......

End of Story....


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## linkinpark

GreenStar said:


> Lol if the Indian goverment was upholding security and peace in the State......then why are 45 civilians are dead. Clearly people are not happy living under Indian rule.
> 
> Then why are there 45 people dead, clearly they do take pleasure in killing Kashmiri's because otherwise they would not have resorted to such actions. In the UK if the police did that, there would be a public outcry, to such action. And this is proven in this case:
> 
> Like wise any Indian Soilder or police that is caught killing a Kashmiri should be put on trial.



People are getting killed for the simple reason that they are rioting and attacking the security forces. The first measure the police takes is to fire tear gas shells. But these rioters wear masks and then proceed further and start attacking the security forces, burning police vehicles, kicking the police etc. I think in that case security forces are justified in firing for their own self-defence and people die as a result. If the protesters will do a peaceful protest, I think police will mean no harm and in that case police perpetrates atrocities, they should be brought to trial. Simple as that.

You can see some "peaceful" protests here


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## GreenStar

> So you mean if crowd takes law into their hands democracy set-up should say please do it since you are our people we should not use force



If you are killing people who are protesting for more rights, or want an Independent State due to negligence by the goveremnt, then you have no right to call your self a democratic State.


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## linkinpark

Some more "peaceful" protests by kashmiri rioters

*Police vehicles and posts being attacked*


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## linkinpark

GreenStar said:


> If you are killing people who are protesting for more rights, or want an Independent State due to negligence by the goveremnt, then you have no right to call your self a democratic State.



Asking for a separate country is not a right that can be negotiated under the democratic setup anywhere in the world. If these people want more jobs, more roads etc then they are justified but certainly calls for separate country will not be entertained and due action will be taken. We don't need certificate from you to declare ourselves a democratic state or not.


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## Star of David

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That would mean ethnic cleansing in a way of the local Muslims - by that yardstick you would also find the massacring of those 'millions of Hindus and Buddhists' by those defending their homeland to be completely acceptable.



Ethnic Cleansing sand ppl moving in are two very different things. please educate yourself. Thanks..


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## GreenStar

> ....I am sure this is what Britain follows but since we are a third world country we are yet to learn such noble ideas....



If you are a third world country that has not leaned such noble idea's, as you claim.......then don't call your self a democratic State.


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## GreenStar

> We don't need certificate from you to declare ourselves a democratic state or not.


 
I think you need to take a chill pill.....frustration is getting to you.


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## Peshwa

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *Why should the Kashmiris have to give up the land the own and their ancestors lived on?* Your argument is rather similar to that of made in favor of demographic engineering by the Indian State by moving in millions of Hindus and Buddhists, except you want to forcibly remove millions first.
> 
> It is their land and they have a right to it. The UNSC resolutions and the promises made them by the Indian leadership at partition assured them that.



No offence.....but that argument does not hold true in modern civilization.....people of all nations have made compromises and learnt to live as assimilated members of nations where they are not a majority, where the rulers were not originally from the land...etc etc...


Millions of Hindus had to leave their ancestral homes and lands in Pakistan thanks to partition.....including my Grandmother...
The Tibetians are NOT Chinese....and are fast becoming a minority in their own country
Native Amricans are a minority in their own lands.....
Just to name a few.....

Comparitively Kashmiris have remained homogenous thanks to India's special status to Kashmir and Kashmiris....

Kashmiris will have to learn to live.....
Nobody is taking away their freedom....they have the right to form their govenrnment, make state laws and practice religion freely without being diluted by cultures from accross various parts of India....

And lastly, the broken record that is the UNSC resolutions is nothing more than a failed attempt by Pakistanis to ignite a lost cause.....

Please note that there was something called the Shimla agreement that was signed by both parties and violated by Pakistan on a multitude of occasions.....if you cant keep up to your end of the bargain......what makes you think UNSC NON-BINDING resolutions hold any merit for India?

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## linkinpark

GreenStar said:


> I think you need to take a chill pill.....frustration is getting to you.



Naah.. I just stated the facts.


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## GreenStar

> But these rioters wear masks and then proceed further and start attacking the security forces, burning police vehicles, kicking the police etc. I think in that case security forces are justified in firing for their own self-defence and people die as a result



If that was the case, then where was your police during the Gujarat riots......were they sleeping and daydreaming when the Hindues were mudering the Muslims.....how convienent that the Indian Security force only comes into to action when it suits them.

---------- Post added at 09:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 PM ----------




> Naah.. I just stated the facts.



You got emotional......that is not stating facts.......thats just you losing the plot.


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## GreenStar

> Nobody is taking away their freedom



well clearly you did by killing 45 people.....


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## linkinpark

GreenStar said:


> You got emotional......that is not stating facts.......thats just you losing the plot.





> well clearly you did by killing 45 people.....



Getting emotional???. I just posted many pictures to back up what I have been trying to say. Howz that firing at the miscreants to uphold law and order makes India undemocratic??. You must be living in an imaginary utopian world where getting beaten and threatened by miscreants is democratic.


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## GreenStar

> I just posted many pictures to back up what I have been trying to say



The only thing I see is a bunch of youth's who are tired of Indian rule, and are desperate to have a independent State. By the way there are ways to disperse riots without killing anyone, it'a not the rioters fault if the Indian Security forces are inadequately trained.


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## GreenStar

> Howz that firing at the miscreants to uphold law and order makes India undemocratic



Well you call yourself Democratic, yet you kill those who are oppose to your unjust rule. In Democracy people are allowed to voice there opinion, but it seems the Indian goverment does not allow this, others 45 people would not have died. 

fact is if Kashmir wanted to be with india then


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## linkinpark

GreenStar said:


> The only thing I see is a bunch of youth's who are tired of Indian rule, and are desperate to have a independent State. By the way there are ways to disperse riots without killing anyone, it'a not the rioters fault if the Indian Security forces are inadequately trained.



Well you need to remove the blinkers to see that these bunch of youths are paid agents to create ruckus and trouble in Kashmir. 

Of course it is not rioters fault , they are just doing their paid job  like here


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## GreenStar

> You must be living in an imaginary utopian world where getting beaten and threatened by miscreants is democratic



And you should be ashmed of your pathetic goverment, who preaches democracy, yet kills to maintain control over a area, in which clearly people are oppose to your style of rule. Futhermore you proclaim to be democratic when you still have not arrested Modi, who was the instigator of the Gujarat riots, where is the justice of muslims there....why has nothing been solved, its been 6 years.......is your judiciary system taking a nap.


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## linkinpark

GreenStar said:


> Well you call yourself Democratic, yet you kill those who are oppose to your unjust rule. In Democracy people are allowed to voice there opinion, but it seems the Indian goverment does not allow this, others 45 people would not have died.
> 
> fact is if Kashmir wanted to be with india then



Go to Indian news websites, you will see both pro-separatist and anti-separatist articles. There is no gag on any of the news publications coming out of Kashmir. Their voices of separatism are heard but they are of no use because India is not going to give a separate country to Kashmiris. It is an inalienable part of India just as Delhi is. Period.

Separatists and their backers can shout till the cows come home but nothing is going to change at the ground level. India has the resources, patience and time on its side. Everyone will toe the line one day or the other.


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## linkinpark

GreenStar said:


> And you should be ashmed of your pathetic goverment, who preaches democracy, yet kills to maintain control over a area, in which clearly people are oppose to your style of rule. Futhermore you proclaim to be democratic when you still have not arrested Modi, who was the instigator of the Gujarat riots, where is the justice of muslims there....why has nothing been solved, its been 6 years.......is your judiciary system taking a nap.



I'm proud of my government for keeping my country intact keeping away and killing the militant scum trying to separate Kashmir from India. No body can do anything about it. That is one hard fact that people should start imbibing at the earliest. There is no power in this world that can separate Kashmir from India.

Stick to the topic of Kashmir. Don't bring in red herrings.


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## GreenStar

> Well you need to remove the blinkers to see that these bunch of youths are paid agents to create ruckus and trouble in Kashmir. ]



It looks like to me the State of India has brainwashed you.........stop using your imaginative brain, it was good in kindagarden but not now......blame your State who is responsible for the killing of thousands of Kashmiri's since 1989. Give me proof that agents are involved in these riots.....and please non of that bullshit from Indian media outlets.......they always seem to talk out of there ***.


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## amit27

GreenStar said:


> And you should be ashmed of your pathetic goverment, who preaches democracy, yet kills to maintain control over a area, in which clearly people are oppose to your style of rule. Futhermore you proclaim to be democratic when you still have not arrested Modi, who was the instigator of the Gujarat riots, where is the justice of muslims there....why has nothing been solved, its been 6 years.......is your judiciary system taking a nap.




Modi never started the gujarat riots u should get your facts right the riots started after a hindu pilgrim train was torched and they were burnt alive and there have been many arrests in the gujarat riots.


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## GreenStar

> I'm proud of my government for keeping my country intact



Well clearly from these reports your goverment is not keeping your country intact.......otherwise there would be no riots and deaths?


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## eric_cartman

Black Blood said:


> We have been trying to Understand your POV for last 60+ years while we watch civilians getting killed by your moronic forces everyday.
> 
> What is your view point ?? - What makes you think that you would always be able to hold on to an occupied territory and keep committing crimes there?
> 
> As for research - its because of your "No Media policy" in the occupied valley and that is why no news comes out of the wraps.
> 
> No international journalists are allowed in the valley so how the hell would you expect us to know what is going on in Kashmir ?
> 
> Its a slap in the face of the Indian establishment because they have banned unbiased journalists while they keep reporting "Their version of the story."



Nothing of this sort of killing was happening before 1989 after that Pakistanis started pumping money to support terrorist and this is the consequence of this.

I think India has also found the paining nerve of Pakistan and now Pakistan is seeing what's happening on daily basis.

Jaise karna waise barna (Karma)

If Pakistanis are so much concerned about humanity they should first support freedom of Tibet from repression of Chineses, whole world admits Tibet as independent region free from China.
Dalia Lama being revered by whole of humanity.


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## GreenStar

> Modi never started the gujarat riots u should get your facts right the riots started after a hindu pilgrim train was torched and they were burnt alive and there have been many arrests in the gujarat riots



Well amit27 he certainly was involved in the riots. 






why have you not arrested him.....shame on the goverment. I only brang this point in because just to show that the Indian goverement only gets serious when it suits its needs, i.e Kashmir.


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## amit27

ive seen this video b4 did Modi kill anyone? he might have given a hate speech same as i seen many pakistani leaders like rehman malik make or hafiz sead and your goverment has not arrested either has it? 

There is no evidence on Modi in the gujarat riots it was a riot where both hindus and muslims died and what happend was a bad thing but one man was not responsible for the actions of so many.


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## linkinpark

GreenStar said:


> It looks like to me the State of India has brainwashed you.........stop using your imaginative brain, it was good in kindagarden but not now......blame your State who is responsible for the killing of thousands of Kashmiri's since 1989. Give me proof that agents are involved in these riots.....and please non of that bullshit from Indian media outlets.......they always seem to talk out of there ***.



Naa..I think Pakistani media brainwashed you. Killing of thousands of Kashmiris happened due to Pakistani sponsored militancy in Kashmir. Until 1989 it was as peaceful region as any other region in India. I'm not here to convince you to believe my view point. I will post here whatever available to me and which I believe. It is up to you to believe or not and I don't care if you believe it or not because nothing is going to change in my life or in India's standing at the world stage.

By the way, your "peaceful" protesters and rioters killed an innocent baby. Have a look


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## GreenStar

> Dalia Lama being revered by whole of humanity.



Haha revered don't make me laugh......that guy is a puupet used by the West to go against China. Fact is under the Dalai Lama rule, the people were controlled to be slaves just like the Tsar sytem of serfdom. 

&#8220;Down with the Dalai Lama&#8221; &#8211; Western criticism | Fool&#039;s Mountain: Blogging for China

wow he is so good that he took money from the American's to stage war for no apparent reaon, just because he was losing power. Anyway this is off topic.


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## eric_cartman

GreenStar said:


> Haha revered don't make me laugh......that guy is a puupet used by the West to go against China. Fact is under the Dalai Lama rule, the people were controlled to be slaves just like the Tsar sytem of serfdom.
> 
> &#8220;Down with the Dalai Lama&#8221; &#8211; Western criticism | Fool's Mountain: Blogging for China
> 
> wow he is so good that he took money from the American's to stage war for no apparent reaon, just because he was losing power. Anyway this is off topic.




Seeing most of you source information from Chinese websites which are biased and regulated, I won't bother to read.


They write to mislead their people and sadly you being their friends are also misleaded.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Dalai_Lama


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## GreenStar

> Naa..I think Pakistani media brainwashed you



Before posting nonsense look at my flag.....I'm British, so stop using a pathetic excuse to dodge away from the fact that the Indian Goverment is clearly rulling unjustly in Kashmir......the truth hurts.......I suggets you take a deep breath to calm your thoughts.


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## linkinpark

GreenStar said:


> Before posting nonsense look at my flag.....I'm British, so stop using a pathetic excuse to dodge away from the fact that the Indian Goverment is clearly rulling unjustly in Kashmir......the truth hurts.......I suggets you take a deep breath to calm your thoughts.



Online flags mean nothing mate and I will discuss only the points made not your flags. Everyone can change their flags, its not a big deal. I've seen many pretenders in the online world. If you have anything substantial to discuss, go ahead, but stop the incessant whining. It is not constructive at all.


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## GreenStar

> Seeing most of you source information from Chinese websites which are biased and regulated, I won't bother to read.
> 
> Dalai Lama suppressing religious freedom - Dorje Shugden - The Wisdom Buddha Protector of Je Tsongkhapa's Tradition
> Is the Dalai Lama a &#8216;religious dictator&#8217;? | spiked
> Dalai Lama sued for repressing religious freedom - Dorje Shugden - The Wisdom Buddha Protector of Je Tsongkhapa's Tradition
> 
> the casese our still relevant...this so called monk is a religius dictator.


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## amit27

BBC News - &#039;First&#039; Kashmir survey produces &#039;startling&#039; results


Kashmir issue is a complicated one it involves water security which many people dont take into account.


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## GreenStar

> Online flags mean nothing mate and I will discuss only the points made not your flags. Everyone can change their flags, its not a big deal. I've seen many pretenders in the online world. If you have anything substantial to discuss, go ahead, but stop the incessant whining. It is not constructive at all.



Listen you fool I'm Britsh, just because my views don't support your views does not make me not Britsh. Who is doing the whining it's clearly you., it seem you can't handle the fact your goverment is oppresiing the people of Kashmir. So before you talk bullshit have a good look at your self before pointing fingers at others, and claiming to know who they our....because it makes you look stupid and a low life, for going personal.


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## GreenStar

> Online flags mean nothing mate and I will discuss only the points made not your flags



If that is the case why don't you ask the Mods...they can trace my IP number.....otherwise you made your self look like a fool for saying that I'm not British, just because my views are different.


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## linkinpark

GreenStar said:


> Listen you fool I'm Britsh, just because my views don't support your views does not make me not Britsh. Who is doing the whining it's clearly you., it seem you can't handle the fact your goverment is oppresiing the people of Kashmir. So before you talk bullshit have a good look at your self before pointing fingers at others, and claiming to know who they our....because it makes you look stupid and a low life, for going personal.



I don't care if you are british or not. I already answered your points. By implying me as stupid and low-life you are one personally attacking. Where did I attack you personally??. I only talked about the ability of anyone changing flags behind the anonymity of the net. There is no way for me to ascertain if you are british or not and I don't care. 

Anyways, discussion with you has not been fruitful due to our very diverging views. Let's agree to disagree on our opposing views and stop it here. Have a good day.

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## GreenStar

Yo Pasha I remember you said that India gave freedom to Kashmiri's so how come this article says that you gave 800 kanals of Kashmiri land for a hindu shrine.......that does not sound like freedom. 

Indian Brutal Oppression And Kashmir Uprising | Opinion Maker


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## GreenStar

> Let's agree to disagree on our opposing views and stop it here. Have a good day.



very well I can respect that, as end of the day not everyone has the same view.


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## GreenStar

> Mirwaiz writes to UN chief Lastupdate:- Thu, 5 Aug 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com



Interesting....looks like things our Hotting up.


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## GreenStar

Home / Headlines / Indian brutality, killings in Kashmir continue - Media Monitors Network (MMN)

wow what a democratic state....it should win a noble prize.


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## amit27

UN cant do nothing as pakistan has broken many agreements like violating the LOC numerous times. The UN security council members like UK, Russia, USA, France will take India's position that Kashmir remains a internal matter for both India and Pakistan to discuss without 3rd party intervention and that will never change in the future.


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## GreenStar

Kashmiri lawyers boycott court over Indian rape-coverup [ WORLD BULLETIN- TURKEY NEWS, WORLD NEWS ]

Another case of Indian forces using brutality...were these Soilders charged.


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> Yo Pasha I remember you said that India gave freedom to Kashmiri's so how come this article says that you gave 800 kanals of Kashmiri land for a hindu shrine.......that does not sound like freedom.
> 
> Indian Brutal Oppression And Kashmir Uprising | Opinion Maker



I fail to see your point....

Are u suggesting that there are no Hindus of Kashmiri origin?
How does India giving land for a temple equate to lack of religious freedom for Kashmiris?....In fact it states the exact opposite....

And here lies the flaw in most people who claim to be "knowledgeable" on Kashmir....
Kashmiri DOES NOT = Muslim....

Even if the above hold true, unless the Govt of India in any way is undermining Islam, curbing the religious practices of Kashmiris, desecrating mosques etc....Your point remains moot....

In fact, Im quite certain that the GOI will happily grant the same to Kashmiri muslims for mosques if requested.

Again...explain your POV...


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## GreenStar

Wailing Woes By Aaliya Anjum

why did Medecins Sans Frontieres in 2005 say that Kashmiri women face the worse sexual violence in the world......does that look freedom to you.......does that look like a goverment that is bringing in security and peace I think not.


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## linkinpark

Hurriyat hawk talks peace, raises hope in Kashmir

*Hurriyat hawk talks peace, raises hope in Kashmir*



> But Omars efforts to buy peace with Geelani were muddied somewhat, with reports that PHK-based Hizbul Mujahideen leader *Syed Salahuddin* had addressed over mobile phone a massive gathering in a village just outside Srinagar.
> 
> It happened while the Hurriyat leader was holding his press conference, creating a confusing asymmetry. There was Geelani appealing for peaceful protests while the voice on the mobile phone, relayed to the crowd over megaphones, stirred the pot and *urged people to flood the streets in large numbers because victory was near. *There was no confirmation whether it was indeed Salahuddin but Srinagar was buzzing with rumours all the same.


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## GreenStar

> I fail to see your point....



That was not my only point, if you have read that article you would find that the picture in which you Indian paint of a utopia Kashmir in which the goverment is providing is wrong. You have murdered thousands of people, just to control a small area of a land......now I'm not saying that Kashmir should go to Pakistan, all i'm saying that it should be independent.


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## GreenStar

Kashmiris call for International probe after India rape cover-up Pakistan Ka Khuda Hafiz

what about this case is it resolved......


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## GreenStar

Behind the Kashmir Conflict - Under Siege: Doda and the Border Districts (Human Rights Watch Report, July 1999)


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## GreenStar

Amnesty International | Working to Protect Human Rights

this doesn't paint a very good India.


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## linkinpark

*Confession of a mastermind behind stone pelting in Kashmir​*







My name is Shabir Ahmed Wani S/o Ali Aziz Wani r/o of Narbal.
This Hurriyat takes out these processions through these small children and give them money which results in stone pelting. In this context I called Wasim Allahpuri on Wednesday whose actual names is Ghulam mohammed dar and is the district president of Tehrek-e-Hurriyat led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani. I told him that there is a procession going on here and where he was. He complimented me and said that in this at least 10 to 15 people should get martyred so that the pot (demonstration) keeps boiling..as in the disruptions continue. This is basically tehrek-e-Hurriyat which gives money and brainwash also some of the kids as they want that the situation should not improve at all in this place.
Question : Who is this Ghulam Mohammed Dar?
He is the district president of Tehrek-e-Hurriyat and before this he was a militant of Hizbul Mujahideen and was known as Wasim Allahpuri.
Is he the man who incites mobs ?
Yes he is the person who is responsible for taking out processions through small children which results in stone pelting and subsequent tears gas shelling from the other side resulting in killing of innocents


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## GreenStar

Doctors Lawyers portest human rights violations in Kashmir .:. newkerala.com Online News - United States 6822

Tell me are these Doctors and lawyers miscreants aswell, in your eyes.....will you shoot them aswell.


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## GreenStar

Canada accuses BSF of human rights violations

I Believe the same.......good job on Canada.


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> That was not my only point, if you have read that article you would find that the picture in which you Indian paint of a utopia Kashmir in which the goverment is providing is wrong. You have murdered thousands of people, just to control a small area of a land......now I'm not saying that Kashmir should go to Pakistan, all i'm saying that it should be independent.



Your exact quote....so what exactly were you implying from the below?



> Yo Pasha I remember you said that India gave freedom to Kashmiri's so how come this article says that you gave 800 kanals of Kashmiri land for a hindu shrine.......that does not sound like freedom.



Who said anything about utopia....But trust me when I say that the mess is NOT all India's fault and has especially nothing to do with the lack of basic rights to Kashmiris.... ie. Freedom of Speech, Religion and the works...
State an instance where the basic rights available to other Indians in a democracy have been violated wrt Kashmiris?


Yes, there has been mismanagement from India in certain regards, but its an element of the situation.....for the better part of the last 2 decade, the valley was in a state of emergency....(read war)....one that was not fueled by Indians...esp the violence..
Violence leads to violence and there will be blood....so one should take it as part of that....

And as far as the ones killed being "innocent" which you're implying from the use of the word "murdered"....there is no way to prove whether they were or not.... so please refrain from such.....
India is doing what it must to maintain control of its lands and maintain peace and law and order....and people taking too violence do get treated harshly....not just in Kashmir....



Do you really believe that Indian army enjoys killing?

Lastly.....I dont think your opinion matters (Being English) on whether Kashmir should be free or not....
Let me be the broken record and say....."mind your own business"

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## GreenStar

2008 Human Rights Reports: India

This is a good article to read


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## GreenStar

> Let me be the broken record and say....."mind your own business"



If that is the case......why don't you leave PDF and ,mind your own bussiness...you Indians seem to involve your self in Pakistani matters......furthermore this is a public forum I can talk what ever I like, are you the headmaster to tell me what to do....lol. 

calm down, i know it takes a lot to handle when you find out how brutal is your goverment.


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## GreenStar

this is just a blog but it show how many people the Indian soilders have killed unjustly.

HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS IN KASHMIR: Killer Facts: Kashmir Cauldron - year of teenage killings


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## GreenStar

Amnesty urges Obama: Get tough on Indian human rights | Left Foot Forward

Its good that the Indian goverment is being brutal...as it will show the world that something needs to be done.....and that this issue should be looked at.


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> If that is the case......why don't you leave PDF and ,mind your own bussiness...you Indians seem to involve your self in Pakistani matters......furthermore this is a public forum I can talk what ever I like, are you the headmaster to tell me what to do....lol.
> 
> calm down, i know it takes a lot to handle when you find out how brutal is your goverment.



Unless you've been living under a rock, Kashmir is a matter between India and Pakistan and will be solved internally.....

"calm down, i know it takes a lot to handle when you find out how brutal is your goverment"

^^^^Hahaha....Bloody hypocrite....
This coming from an Englishman.....colonizers of the world....oppressors of the South Africans, ....wait...how many people died for the independence of Ireland?

Ride your high horse elsewhere and let us South Asians deal with our sh!t


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## GreenStar

Human Rights Crisis in Kashmir - A Pattern of Impunity

A very old article....but it shows nothing has been achived from both sides Pakistan or India.


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## GreenStar

> This coming from an Englishman.....colonizers of the world....oppressors of the South Africans, ....wait...how many people died for the independence of Ireland?
> 
> Ride your high horse elsewhere and let us South Asians deal with our sh!t /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> It may be your sh!t as you proclaim.......but as this is a public forum I can talk what ever I like.......Just like the Indian forces who are killing innocent Kashmiri's who oppose them.... you are getting angry because my view don't correlate with your's ......get used to it.


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## GreenStar

> This coming from an Englishman.....colonizers of the world....oppressors of the South Africans, ....wait...how many people died for the independence of Ireland?



Has there been a recent case....stop getting previous history involved...the present is the key......and at the moment your goverment is doing all the opppressing......did you not leaarn nothing from us, if we were the oppressors.


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> This coming from an Englishman.....colonizers of the world....oppressors of the South Africans, ....wait...how many people died for the independence of Ireland?
> 
> Ride your high horse elsewhere and let us South Asians deal with our sh!t /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> It may be your sh!t as you proclaim.......*but as this is a public forum I can talk what ever I like*.......Just like the Indian forces who are killing innocent Kashmiri's who oppose them.... you are getting angry because my view don't correlate with your's ......get used to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This I agree with....you can mouth off all you want.....fact remains....Kashmir = internal matter....so your opinion is not going to make a difference....
> Unless you're Kashmiri or Pakistani....
> 
> Oh and please do continue posting....I truly enjoy not reading the many articles that you've posted....as will others...LOL!
Click to expand...


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## amit27

GreenStar said:


> Amnesty urges Obama: Get tough on Indian human rights | Left Foot Forward
> 
> Its good that the Indian goverment is being brutal...as it will show the world that something needs to be done.....and that this issue should be looked at.



Pakistan Human Rights


You think Pakistan is a saint? why dont u see amnesty views on pakistan's own abysmal record on human rights.


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## GreenStar

Human Rights violations in Indian Occupied Kashmir

Oh look how brave of the Indian army to murder a 9 year old....who is doing the oppressing now pasha.......


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## GreenStar

> You think Pakistan is a saint? why dont u see amnesty views on pakistan's own abysmal record on human rights.



What's the matter...did the article hit some home truths that the Indian goverment is a brutal regime....that has caused the death of thousands of Kashmiri's who you procliam to be your countrymen. wow if that is how you treat your countrymen, I wonder how you treat your enemies.


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## amit27

GreenStar said:


> What's the matter...did the article hit some home truths that the Indian goverment is a brutal regime....that has caused the death of thousands of Kashmiri's who you procliam to be your countrymen. wow if that is how you treat your countrymen, I wonder how you treat your enemies.



No just made me think your some sorta idiot you quoted amnesty but u failed to see what amnesty said on pakistan's human rights record or cant you accept this fact? too much for you too digest


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> Has there been a recent case....stop getting previous history involved...the present is the key......and at the moment your goverment is doing all the opppressing......did you not leaarn nothing from us, if we were the oppressors.



So easily you forget the past.....But the sad fact is....it is this very past that has brought India and Pakistan to this position .....and Kashmir the mess that it is....with the English being avery important part and parcel of this equation


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## GreenStar

> This I agree with....you can mouth off all you want.....fact remains....Kashmir = internal matter....so your opinion is not going to make a difference....
> Unless you're Kashmiri or Pakistani.



that is a lame excuse...stop hiding behind the excuse that it is an internal matter, if that is the case then stop whining to the world that Pakistan is involved with these incidences........and bringing in foriegn goverments inthe the equation to reprimand Pakistan........do it your self.


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## GreenStar

> So easily you forget the past.....But the sad fact is....it is this very past that has brought India and Pakistan to this position .....and Kashmir the mess that it is....with the English being avery important part and parcel of this equation



Fact is I was not alive when England was being oppressive.......but you on the other hand are alive to witness what your goverment is doing.....and instead of condemning it, your defending its action. 

The difference is I can at least admit that we were oppressors and were very much wrong in what we did in south Asia, Afirica and so on. However you don't have it in you to do the same for your goverment....which is pathetic.


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> that is a lame excuse...stop hiding behind the excuse that it is an internal matter, if that is the case then stop whining to the world that Pakistan is involved with these incidences........and bringing in foriegn goverments inthe the equation to reprimand Pakistan........do it your self.



Understand the difference dear friend.....

To have peaceful dialogue, we need a peaceful environment.....Terrorism and killing of innocent Indians outside of Kashmir will not create that scenario....

So if the real humanists as yourself want us to resolve this matter, use your influence on Pak to stop supporting terrorist groups, initiate CBM....then we Indians and Pakistanis can solve this matter internally....

How hard is that?


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## GreenStar

> No just made me think your some sorta idiot you quoted amnesty but u failed to see what amnesty said on pakistan's human rights record or cant you accept this fact? too much for you too digest



Pakistan is wrong as well, as I said it in one of my previous post that both sides have not progressed forward. However India is the worse violater because of the simple fact that it control that side of Kashmir, and yet still there are violation's of human right's, such as disaaperance, raping of women, and killings. I at least can acknowledge the fact that Pakistan has done wrong but can you.....so who is the idiot in this case, which is blinded by propaganda hate.


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## amit27

GreenStar said:


> Pakistan is wrong as well, as I said it in one of my previous post that both sides have not progressed forward. However India is the worse violater because of the simple fact that it control that side of Kashmir, and yet still there are violation's of human right's, such as disaaperance, raping of women, and killings. I at least can acknowledge the fact that Pakistan has done wrong but can you.....so who is the idiot in this case, which is blinded by propaganda hate.



Stop talking out your backside you think there is no rapes, missing people, killings in pakistan? 


Amnesty International has long been concerned about the persistent pattern human rights violations occurring in Pakistan. Arbitrary detention, torture, deaths in custody, forced disappearances, and extrajudicial execution are rampant. The government of Pakistan has failed to protect individuals  particularly women, religious minorities and children  from violence and other human rights abuses committed in the home, in the community, and while in legal custody. It has failed to ensure legal redress after violations have occurred. In addition, Pakistan continues to impose the death penalty on persons convicted of crimes.


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## GreenStar

> To have peaceful dialogue, we need a peaceful environment.....Terrorism and killing of innocent Indians outside of Kashmir will not create that scenario....



Your right Pakistan should not use terrorists for it's own gain, as it not helpful to thed solution, however I have hard that alot of Pakistani Kashmiri's have relatives on the Indian side of Kashmir.....so when they hear the deaths of there relatives.....it can be understandble in why there blood boils in causing harm to India.......I don't agree with it, but from my prospective that seem to be the case. 

Can I ask you a question......there must be a reason why Kashmir youth join these militant.....what is your prospective on this.


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## amit27

Most these so called freedom fighters are not even kashmiri, they are outsiders like punjabi pakistanis, chechans, afgans etc who dont have nothing to do with kashmir at all.







Why dont people mention this how these co called freedom fighters are killing kashmiri people ?


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## GreenStar

> Stop talking out your backside you think there is no rapes, missing people, killings in pakistan?
> 
> 
> Amnesty International has long been concerned about the persistent pattern human rights violations occurring in Pakistan. Arbitrary detention, torture, deaths in custody, forced disappearances, and extrajudicial execution are rampant. The government of Pakistan has failed to protect individuals &#8211; particularly women, religious minorities and children &#8211; from violence and other human rights abuses committed in the home, in the community, and while in legal custody. It has failed to ensure legal redress after violations have occurred. In addition, Pakistan continues to impose the death penalty on persons convicted of crimes



Go to the Pharmacy and get a chill pill....and I'm not talking from my backside as its not possible.

This thread is about Kashmir so I will bring in Kashmiri related issues......if I wanted to go to The whole of India in its human rights violations.....I would not be able to sleep for weeks. All my links were Kashmiri related incidence, so if you can't answer it then I suggest you calm your self down. Any India is a democratic country..so I feel it should be held more responsibly like all other democratic countries.....if you can't then I suggest that you stop calling yourself democratic....its simple.


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## EjazR

*The Hindu : Opinion / Lead : The only package Kashmir needs is justice*

_If the Prime Minister does not take bold steps to address the grievances of the Kashmiris, there's no telling where the next eruption will take us._

Whatever his other failings, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah deserves praise for acknowledging that the protests which have rocked the Kashmir valley these past few weeks are leaderless' and not the product of manipulation by some hidden individual or group.

This admission has been difficult for the authorities to make because its implications are unpleasant, perhaps even frightening. In security terms, the absence of a central nervous system means the expanding body of protest cannot be controlled by arresting individual leaders. And in political terms, the spectre of leaderless revolt makes the offer of dialogue' or the naming of a special envoy' for Kashmir  proposals which might have made sense last year or even last month  seem completely and utterly pointless today.

Ever since the current phase of disturbances began, intelligence officials have been wasting precious time convincing the leadership and public of India that the protests are solely or mostly the handiwork of agent provocateurs. So we have been told of the role of the Lashkar-e-Taiba and ISI, of the daily wage of Rs. 200'  and even narcotics  being given to stone pelters. A few weeks back, an audio recording of a supposedly incriminating telephone call was leaked to the media along with a misleading transcript suggesting the Geelani faction of the Hurriyat was behind the upsurge. Now, our TV channels have learned from their sources that the protests will continue till President Obama's visit in November.

Central to this delusional narrative of manipulated protest is the idea that the disturbances are confined to just a few pockets in the valley. Last week, Union Home Minister P. Chidambaram told reporters the problem was limited to Srinagar and two other towns. No doubt, some areas like downtown Srinagar, Sopore and Baramulla were in the vanguard' but one of the reasons the protests spread was popular frustration over the way in which the authenticity of mass sentiment was being dismissed by the government. For the women who came on to the streets with their pots and pans and even stones, or the youths who set up spontaneous blood donation camps to help those injured in the demonstrations, this attempt to strip their protest of both legitimacy and agency was yet another provocation.

In the face of this mass upsurge, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has two options. He can declare, like the party apparatchiks in Brecht's poem, that since the people have thrown away the confidence of the government, it is time for the government to dissolve the people and elect another. Or he can admit, without prevarication or equivocation, that his government has thrown away the confidence of the ordinary Kashmiri.

This was not the way things looked in January 2009, when Omar Abdullah became chief minister. Assembly elections had gone off well. And though turnout in Srinagar and other towns was low, there was goodwill for the young leader. Of course, those who knew the state well had warned the Centre not to treat the election as an end in itself. The masla-e-Kashmir' remained on the table and the people wanted it resolved. Unfortunately, the Centre failed to recognise this.

It is too early to gauge the reaction to Mr. Abdullah's promise of a political package once normalcy is restored. But the people have thronged the streets are likely to ask why this package  which the chief minister himself admitted was long in the pipeline  was never delivered for all the months normalcy prevailed. What came in the way of amending the Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act? Of ensuring there was zero tolerance for human rights violations? Of strengthening the ongoing peace process both internally and externally, as the all-party meeting in Srinagar earlier this month reminded the Centre to do?

At the heart of this missing package is the Centre's failure to craft a new security and political strategy for a situation where militancy no longer poses the threat it once did. The security forces in the valley continue to operate with an expansive mandate that is not commensurate with military necessity. Even if civilian deaths are less than before, the public's capacity to tolerate collateral damage' when it is officially said that militancy has ended and normalcy has returned is also much less than before.

The immediate trigger for the current phase of protests was the death of 17-year-old Tufail Mattoo, who was killed by a tear gas canister which struck his head during a protest in Srinagar in June against the Machhil fake encounter of April 30. Many observers have blamed his death  and the deaths of other young men since then  on the security forces lacking the training and means for non-lethal crowd control. Tear gas, rubber bullets and water cannon are used all over the world in situations where protests turn violent but in India, live ammunition seems to be the first and only line of defence. Even tear gas canisters are so poorly designed here that they lead to fatalities.

Whatever the immediate cause, however, it is also safe to say that young Tufail died as a direct result of Machhil. Though the Army has arrested the soldiers responsible for the fake encounter, the only reason they had the nerve to commit such a heinous crime was because they were confident they would get away with it. And at the root of that confidence is Pathribal, the notorious fake encounter of 2000. The army officers involved in the kidnapping and murder of five Kashmiri civilians there continue to be at liberty despite being charge-sheeted by the CBI. The Ministry of Defence has refused to grant sanction for their prosecution and has taken the matter all the way to the Supreme Court in an effort to ensure its men do not face trial. What was the message that went out as a result?

Had the Centre made an example of the rotten apples that have spoiled the reputation of the Army instead of protecting them all these years, the Machhil encounter might never have happened. Tufail would not be dead and angry mobs would not be attacking police stations and government buildings. Impunity for the few has directly endangered the lives of all policemen and paramilitary personnel stationed in Kashmir. There is a lesson in this, surely, for those who say punishing the guilty will lower the morale of the security forces.

Mr. Abdullah may not be the best administrator but his biggest handicap as chief minister has been the Centre's refusal to address the ordinary Kashmiri's concerns about the over-securitsation of the state. Today, when he is being forced to induct an even greater number of troops into the valley, the Chief Minister's ability to push for a political package built around demilitarisation is close to zero.

At the Centre's urging, Mr. Abdullah made a televised speech to his people. His words do not appear to have made any difference. Nor could they, when the crisis staring us in the face is of national and international proportions. Today, the burden of our past sins in Kashmir has come crashing down like hailstones. Precious time is being frittered in thinking of ways to turn the clock back. Sending in more forces to shoot more protesters, changing the chief minister, imposing Governor's Rule  all of these are part of the reliquary of failed statecraft. We are where we are because these policies never worked.

The Prime Minister can forget about the Commonwealth Games, AfPak and other issues. Kashmir is where his leadership is urgently required. The Indian state successfully overcame the challenge posed by terrorism and militancy. But a people in ferment cannot be dealt with the same way. Manmohan Singh must take bold steps to demonstrate his willingness to address the grievances of ordinary Kashmiris. He should not insult their sentiments by talking of economic packages, roundtable conferences and all-party talks. He should unreservedly express regret for the deaths that have occurred these past few weeks. He should admit, in frankness and humility, the Indian state's failure to deliver justice all these years. And he should ask the people of Kashmir for a chance to make amends. There is still no guarantee the lava of public anger which is flowing will cool. But if he doesn't make an all-out effort to create some political space today, there is no telling where the next eruption in the valley will take us.


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## GreenStar

> Why dont people mention this how these co called freedom fighters are killing kashmiri people



That is true they need to be eliminated....however they are not a fully recognized goverment, they are just a small group.......while India is a proper goverment and the fact that it tries to stoop to the militant's level of tactics........does not speak well for your goverment.


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## amit27

GreenStar said:


> Go to the Pharmacy and get a chill pill....and I'm not talking from my backside as its not possible.
> 
> This thread is about Kashmir so I will bring in Kashmiri related issues......if I wanted to go to The whole of India in its human rights violations.....I would not be able to sleep for weeks. All my links were Kashmiri related incidence, so if you can't answer it then I suggest you calm your self down. Any India is a democratic country..so I feel it should be held more responsibly like all other democratic countries.....if you can't then I suggest that you stop calling yourself democratic....its simple.



India is democratic in that it has free and fair elections without rigging so it is the worlds biggest democracy, Kashmir is a complicated issue and neither pakistan or india is a saint in this matter, the amount of killings done by both the indian army and the jihadis amounts to the same thing. 

Yes i agree the Indian army should use modern methods like water canons and rubber bullets instead of live ammo for such incidence I dont know whether they have considered this at all.


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## GreenStar

Anyway it was nice talking but its 2 am, must go sleep.


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## Jade

Thats true Kashmiries need Justice. We cannot alienate our own. The situation is getting out of hand. New Delhi has to think out of box. A political solution is need of the hour. A solution that is within the Indian Constitution

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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> Fact is I was not alive when England was being oppressive.......but you on the other hand are alive to witness what your goverment is doing.....and instead of condemning it, your defending its action.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The difference is I can at least admit that we were oppressors and were very much wrong in what we did in south Asia, Afirica and so on. However you don't have it in you to do the same for your goverment....which is pathetic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well...the point is...how are you so certain that the Indian govt is wrong? Arent we to defend what belongs to us? Doesnt the present day English Govt punish offenders? Does it not defend its domain and area of interest?
> So why the hue and cry when India hunts down people that go against the unity of our state...and to be honest, we have maintained the unity through the Khalistani, Kashmiri, NE movements.....In a multicultural country like India, its easy to find differences, its hard to find unity....Kashmir is a symbol of our unity....giving it away would be like taking our unity....
> 
> Are we to give in to every demand for a new country? If so, then why isnt the same rule applied to all freedom movements world over? What makes Kashmir so special?....what makes Kashmirs case so legitimate....because Pakistan says so?
> 
> Your govt went into the Iraq under a false pretense along with the US govt? Isnt that a human rights violation....let alone a violation of the UN Charter... ?
> 
> At least in the case of India....our cause has legitimacy.....what footing did the UK stand on before entering Iraq?...or did that happen in a generation before yours?
> 
> Listen my friend....its all a matter of perspective.....which side of the fence you look at it from....You happen to be in the Pak camp...fine by me.....but dont expect us to fall in line just because you see the world crooked...
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Peshwa

> Your right Pakistan should not use terrorists for it's own gain, as it not helpful to thed solution, however *I have hard that alot of Pakistani Kashmiri's have relatives on the Indian side of Kashmir.....so when they hear the deaths of there relatives.....it can be understandble in why there blood boils in causing harm to India*.......I don't agree with it, but from my prospective that seem to be the case.



GS...who wouldnt feel bad at the death of a close one? I sympathize with the families of the dead....But at the same time, the relatives of these folks who you know may have been involved in terrorism or illegal activites against the state of India....who knows.....How can all people who have been killed by the army be "innocent".....you're making us out to be some blood thirsty monsters!

It takes two to clap....the army wouldnt be in Kashmir if there was no need for it....relatives of these folks would stop dying when they stop getting involved in violent activities.....



> Can I ask you a question......there must be a reason why Kashmir youth join these militant.....what is your prospective on this



Man by nature is weak....there are the very few who have the courage to resist tempations....those happen to be the Buddha's, Jesus's and Mohammad's of the world....

Everyone has a price and weakness.....to mould and "convert" a simple person into a ruthless killer takes very little....
Im sure you're hinting at the fact that the reason why these kids take up arms is because they believe the cause for Kashmir is legitimate....

But then pray tell.....why are so many young men in Pakistan and Afghanistan blowing themselves up daily? why are they so demented to commit suicide killings without a cause?

Im sure you get where Im going with this.....


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## naved_kam

GreenStar said:


> Fact is I was not alive when England was being oppressive.......but you on the other hand are alive to witness what your goverment is doing.....and instead of condemning it, your defending its action.
> 
> The difference is I can at least admit that we were oppressors and were very much wrong in what we did in south Asia, Afirica and so on. However you don't have it in you to do the same for your goverment....which is pathetic.



We you alive during the human rights respect by UK meted out to the IRA?

Were you alive when your nation went out to rape Iraq looking for WMDs? How do you sleep with the knowledge of so much death and destruction caused due to your choices? 

You have blood on your hands my friend so no need to lecture us. You could lecture the Americans though. They are the only ones who have "respected" human rights more than U.K.

So do not meddle in matters to which you could provide not even one iota of positive contribution. Have you not learnt that even now?


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## Hulk

Good write up, I guess center is not reconizing the problem well. We should declare a roadmap to remove troops slowly and that will help.


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## billi

I think India needs to give up Kashmir Valley, of course after resolving Pandits' situation. Probably 10% of the valley can house the Kashmir Pandits and beong to India.
But how can we guarantee that Pak will not rake up some other issue to keep sending terrorist to destablise us.Pak Army wants to control all resources in Pak and will cook up another story to keep exporting terror. So it s best to kep Pak tied up i Kashmir so that they cant fan out to other parts of india. thats why india wont give up kashmir.


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## Awesome

You can't have justice meted out by the same people that take away their right of self-determination - their freedom.

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## billi

Asim Aquil said:


> You can't have justice meted out by the same people that take away their right of self-determination - their freedom.



Even Paksitanis for half their existence could not determine their own leader because of army rule. also a hindu/ahmadi cannot become PM of pak, which means that they also dont have right to self-determination


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## Awesome

billi said:


> Even Paksitanis for half their existence could not determine their own leader because of army rule. also a hindu/ahmadi cannot become PM of pak, which means that they also dont have right to self-determination


But when Kashmiris choose they are still going to choose Pakistan over India.

Moreover, we are also okay with the Kashmiris choosing Independence to form a united Kashmir. As long as they choose on their own, what India gives them is not justice, its imposition of its will.


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## billi

Asim Aquil said:


> But when Kashmiris choose they are still going to choose Pakistan over India.
> 
> Moreover, we are also okay with the Kashmiris choosing Independence to form a united Kashmir. As long as they choose on their own, what India gives them is not justice, its imposition of its will.



I am also of opinion that the Valley with 99&#37;Mus is vacated.
They can go to Pak or any other hell they coose, but India cannot let go of kashmir because Pak will not stop sending terror here.


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## ejaz007

Pride said:


> And how many of them were killed?? Could you please post those pics where the same people were shown as dead?



What is your vision? I think you have selective viewing disorder. This is a new disease just discovered and normally found in members of this forum who do not have the vision to see the post posted under the one they are viewing and responding to.


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## Pride

ejaz007 said:


> What is your vision? I think you have selective viewing disorder. This is a new disease just discovered and normally found in members of this forum who do not have the vision to see the post posted under the one they are viewing and responding to.



Dear Friend, Thanks for identifying my disease..I dont know such disease exist or not but one thing in this forum surely exist where people respond without having prior and proper knowledge of topic.. 

Back to the topic: IA dont kill peace protesters like Geelani and others but they surely kill with stones, petrol bombs, Swords on their hand.. got refrence with the pics posted?? or try to search fancy words in Medical area...


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> If that was the case, then where was your police during the Gujarat riots......were they sleeping and daydreaming when the Hindues were mudering the Muslims.....how convienent that the Indian Security force only comes into to action when it suits them.




Well, Indian police was exactly at the same place, where Pakistani security forces are when a terrorist blows up a group of your civilians. *Please dont go off topic here.. *


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## anathema

GreenStar said:


> That was not my only point, if you have read that article you would find that the picture in which you Indian paint of a utopia Kashmir in which the goverment is providing is wrong. You have murdered thousands of people, just to control a small area of a land......now I'm not saying that Kashmir should go to Pakistan, all i'm saying that it should be independent.



IRA --struggle for Ireland from UK , Balochistan Independence struggle -- from Pakistan, chechen in russia, Palestine from Israel, inactive bach (not sure about the name) in spain ...and many more !

All were/are freedom struggles from their parent country! Does this mean that Government on those respective countries - would give a slice of land on a platter to them ! What is so special about Kashmir anyway ! ... Just because its Pakistan's fantasy from Infancy ? It simply is not going to happen --its a moot point to discuss. Period. We can discuss how to achieve peace, if you (our neighbor) is interested in that !

If Kashmir ceases to exist in India -- then India ceases to exist...that aint gonna happen.

*Mod Edit: Personal comment removed*


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## Dash

Kashmir is an integral part of India, it doesnt matter how many people protest, it will never be another land...

It is ours.


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## storm seeker

GreenStar said:


> Fact is I was not alive when England was being oppressive.......but you on the other hand are alive to witness what your goverment is doing.....and instead of condemning it, your defending its action.
> 
> The difference is I can at least admit that we were oppressors and were very much wrong in what we did in south Asia, Afirica and so on. However you don't have it in you to do the same for your goverment....which is pathetic.



u are great


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## fawwaxs

*SRINAGAR: We are out on the streets with a message -- kill us before you kill our young boys and girls, says Rehana Ashraf, a female teacher in Indian Kashmir.*







It is a stance which makes the security forces deeply anxious as they battle to suppress a surge of violent protests against India's rule of the Muslim-majority region.

An increasing number of women have been involved in the demonstrations, during which at least 45 people have been killed in the last eight weeks.

Most of the victims are young men who have died in gun fire as security forces try to enforce curfew orders that have brought ordinary life to a halt.

Each death particularly those of two women so far  has triggered further angry protests and an equally strong response from Indian paramilitary troops and police.

Under such circumstances, you can't expect us to remain silent, said Ashraf, 49, who lives in the region's main town Srinagar with her two young daughters. We want to send out a message that we are not weak. Young men have always led the street protests and stone-throwing in Kashmir during 20 years of rebellion, but that is changing.

We have lost our patience. They have killed our sons and brothers. How do you expect us to be mute spectators? 41-year-old Mehbooba Akhter, a mother of three teenage sons, told AFP.

Akhter, a Srinagar resident, said she has been taking part in the wave of anti-India protests, which began when a 17-year-old male student was killed by a police tear-gas shell in Srinagar on June 11.

Hundreds of women and girls, many in colourful salwar kameez dresses, have since been regularly out on the streets chanting we want freedom! and blood for blood! Some carry sticks and stones.

Dealing with female protesters is a fraught challenge for the police and paramilitary troops struggling to control the protests, which India says are instigated by hardline groups supported by Pakistan.

Putting women and children in the front of rallies is a deliberate attempt by separatists to put us on back foot, Prabhakar Tripathi, spokesman for paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), told AFP.

They know we won't confront them, he said.

Many women who do not directly take part in rallies carry drinking water to the protesters and also direct youths down escape routes as they flee from baton charges, tear-gas and gunfire.

It is not the responsibility of men alone to protest against injustice. We women have to be in the forefront to fight it too, said Shamima Javed, 38.

I am joining protests to express my solidarity with those women who lost their sons and daughters."Other women believe they should not become involved.

I am against protests. They affect education and the livelihoods of thousands, said Haleema Akhter, a retired woman in the southern town of Pampore. But even my own 40-year-old daughter and her children are not willing to listen. Syeda Afshana, a leading columnist and lecturer in the main Kashmir university, says the increasing female presence reflects the sense of injustice felt by Kashmiris.

Out on the streets, women are making their minds felt, Afshana told AFP.

By pelting stones, they are expressing their collective anger. AFP

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## ejaz007

Pride said:


> Dear Friend, Thanks for identifying my disease..I dont know such disease exist or not but one thing in this forum surely exist where people respond without having prior and proper knowledge of topic..
> 
> Back to the topic: IA dont kill peace protesters like Geelani and others but they surely kill with stones, petrol bombs, Swords on their hand.. got refrence with the pics posted?? or try to search fancy words in Medical area...



I have not been able to find any pics showing the protestors carrying petrol bombs or swords in their hands. Why don't you post some but make sure these are from the recent protests.

Also can you confirm if stones and sticks are described as weapons in India and one needs a license to carry them.


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## fawwaxs

*Hundreds of women and girls have joined the anti-India protests on streets*

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## fawwaxs

SRINAGAR, India &#8212; "We are out on the streets with a message -- kill us before you kill our young boys and girls," says Rehana Ashraf, a female teacher in Indian Kashmir.

It is a stance which makes the security forces deeply anxious as they battle to suppress a surge of violent protests against India's rule of the Muslim-majority region.

An increasing number of women have been involved in the demonstrations, during which at least 45 people have been killed in the last eight weeks.

Most of the victims are young men who have died in gun fire as security forces try to enforce curfew orders that have brought ordinary life to a halt.

Each death -- particularly those of two women so far -- has triggered further angry protests and an equally strong response from Indian paramilitary troops and police.

"Under such circumstances, you can't expect us to remain silent," said Ashraf, 49, who lives in the region's main town Srinagar with her two young daughters. "We want to send out a message that we are not weak."

Young men have always led the street protests and stone-throwing in Kashmir during 20 years of rebellion, but that is changing.

"We have lost our patience. They have killed our sons and brothers. How do you expect us to be mute spectators?" 41-year-old Mehbooba Akhter, a mother of three teenage sons, told AFP.

Akhter, a Srinagar resident, said she has been taking part in the wave of anti-India protests, which began when a 17-year-old male student was killed by a police tear-gas shell in Srinagar on June 11.

Hundreds of women and girls, many in colourful salwar kameez dresses, have since been regularly out on the streets chanting "we want freedom!" and "blood for blood!" Some carry sticks and stones.

Dealing with female protesters is a fraught challenge for the police and paramilitary troops struggling to control the protests, which India says are instigated by hardline groups supported by Pakistan.

"Putting women and children in the front of rallies is a deliberate attempt by separatists to put us on back foot," Prabhakar Tripathi, spokesman for paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), told AFP.

"They know we won't confront them," he said.

Many women who do not directly take part in rallies carry drinking water to the protesters and also direct youths down escape routes as they flee from baton charges, tear-gas and gunfire.

"It is not the responsibility of men alone to protest against injustice. We women have to be in the forefront to fight it too," said Shamima Javed, 38.

"I am joining protests to express my solidarity with those women who lost their sons and daughters."

Other women believe they should not become involved.

"I am against protests. They affect education and the livelihoods of thousands," said Haleema Akhter, a retired woman in the southern town of Pampore. "But even my own 40-year-old daughter and her children are not willing to listen."

Syeda Afshana, a leading columnist and lecturer in the main Kashmir university, says the increasing female presence reflects the sense of injustice felt by Kashmiris.

"Out on the streets, women are making their minds felt," Afshana told AFP. "By pelting stones, they are expressing their collective anger."

AFP: Female protesters pile on pressure in Indian Kashmir

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## anathema

ejaz007 said:


> Also can you confirm if stones and sticks are described as weapons in India and one needs a license to carry them.



No you dont need a license to carry a stone or a stick ! 

But if that same stone or stick is used to hurt or kill another person then court can award Rigorous punishment to the person carrying the stone or stick which also includes capital punishment .i.e Hang till death.


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## ejaz007

Dash said:


> Kashmir is an integral part of India, it doesnt matter how many people protest, it will never be another land...
> 
> It is ours.



Sorry to burst your bubble. Kashmir is disputed. Here is the actual map:

http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/seasia.pdf


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## ejaz007

anathema said:


> No you dont need a license to carry a stone or a stick !
> 
> But if that same stone or stick is used to hurt or kill another person then court can award Rigorous punishment to the person carrying the stone or stick which also includes capital punishment .i.e Hang till death.



OK. Now second question. How many policeman/military personnel have died due to stone throwing or being hit by sticks?


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## fawwaxs



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## ejaz007

Kashmiri men shout pro freedom slogans as relatives and friends carry the dead body of Afroza Wani on a stretcher outside a hospital in Srinagar, India, Sunday, Aug. 1, 2010. Three people were gunned down Sunday by security forces who opened fire on thousands of protesters at two separate places in increasingly violent Indian Kashmir, bringing the death toll from weeks of clashes to 26. (Dar Yasin / AP)


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## anathema

ejaz007 said:


> OK. Now second question. How many policeman/military personnel have died due to stone throwing or being hit by sticks?



No deaths -- More than 1000 policemen injured !

Chidambaram backs Omar, appeals for peace in Kashmir - India - The Times of India



> Chidambaram said there were 872 stone pelting incidents in June and July 2010 and 1,266 security personnel were injured in the last two months.


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## gurjot

ejaz007 said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble. Kashmir is disputed. Here is the actual map:
> 
> http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/seasia.pdf



who cares 4 others


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## SurvivoR

Well well... what have we here... Shame on the indian Occupational forces for when even women come out and start throwing stones, you can well imagine how much injustice and barbarism the Kashmiris have undergone at hands of these invaders.

I wonder what would Gandhi do if he saw all this?


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## fawwaxs



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## ice_man

i bet indians will come here and say this is funded by ISI LADIES WING!!

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## karan.1970

ejaz007 said:


> OK. Now second question. How many policeman/military personnel have died due to stone throwing or being hit by sticks?



1300 injured


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## Awesome

Awesome... Love their spirit. India will not be able to handle Kashmir any more.

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## ejaz007

Kashmiri civilians attend an injured person immediately after Indian police opened fire on protesters in Srinagar, India, Monday, Aug. 2, 2010. Government troops fired at thousands of people protesting Indian rule over the country's portion of Kashmir on Monday, killing one person and injuring more than 30 as the wave of violence that has swept through the region continued unabated. (AP / AP)


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## ejaz007

Kashmiri muslims prepare the body of Sameer Ahmed for burial in Srinagar, India, Monday, Aug. 2, 2010. Government troops fired into crowds of protesters Monday as tens of thousands of people across Indian-controlled Kashmir demonstrated their rejection of India's rule over the predominantly Muslim region, police said. Locals allege Sameer was beaten to death by paramilitary soldiers during the protest . (Mukhtar Khan / AP)


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## Break the Silence

Asim Aquil said:


> Awesome... Love their spirit. India will not be able to handle Kashmir any more.



Well, Lets see...what will happen!!


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## gurjot

Asim Aquil said:


> Awesome... Love their spirit. India will not be able to handle Kashmir any more.


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## Break the Silence

ice_man said:


> i bet indians will come here and say this is funded by ISI LADIES WING!!



These are seperatist, who are on payroll of Isi.and spreading venomn among innocents..


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## Spring Onion

ice_man said:


> i bet indians will come here and say this is funded by ISI LADIES WING!!



Mashallah  we should remember stones are worth-full weapons against Indian terrorist army just like Israeli terrorist army.


 to these Ladies 

Now what will Indian apologists say about these ladies ??

They are on payroll of ISI


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## gurjot

Jana said:


> Mashallah  we should remember stones are worth-full weapons against Indian terrorist army just like Israeli terrorist army.
> 
> 
> to these Ladies
> 
> Now what will Indian apologists say about these ladies ??
> 
> They are on payroll of ISI



hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


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## Masterchief

fawwaxs said:


> *SRINAGAR: We are out on the streets with a message -- kill us before you kill our young boys and girls, says Rehana Ashraf, a female teacher in Indian Kashmir.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is a stance which makes the security forces deeply anxious as they battle to suppress a surge of violent protests against India's rule of the Muslim-majority region.
> 
> An increasing number of women have been involved in the demonstrations, during which at least 45 people have been killed in the last eight weeks.
> 
> Most of the victims are young men who have died in gun fire as security forces try to enforce curfew orders that have brought ordinary life to a halt.
> 
> Each death particularly those of two women so far  has triggered further angry protests and an equally strong response from Indian paramilitary troops and police.
> 
> Under such circumstances, you can't expect us to remain silent, said Ashraf, 49, who lives in the region's main town Srinagar with her two young daughters. We want to send out a message that we are not weak. Young men have always led the street protests and stone-throwing in Kashmir during 20 years of rebellion, but that is changing.
> 
> We have lost our patience. They have killed our sons and brothers. How do you expect us to be mute spectators? 41-year-old Mehbooba Akhter, a mother of three teenage sons, told AFP.
> 
> Akhter, a Srinagar resident, said she has been taking part in the wave of anti-India protests, which began when a 17-year-old male student was killed by a police tear-gas shell in Srinagar on June 11.
> 
> Hundreds of women and girls, many in colourful salwar kameez dresses, have since been regularly out on the streets chanting we want freedom! and blood for blood! Some carry sticks and stones.
> 
> Dealing with female protesters is a fraught challenge for the police and paramilitary troops struggling to control the protests, which India says are instigated by hardline groups supported by Pakistan.
> 
> Putting women and children in the front of rallies is a deliberate attempt by separatists to put us on back foot, Prabhakar Tripathi, spokesman for paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), told AFP.
> 
> They know we won't confront them, he said.
> 
> Many women who do not directly take part in rallies carry drinking water to the protesters and also direct youths down escape routes as they flee from baton charges, tear-gas and gunfire.
> 
> It is not the responsibility of men alone to protest against injustice. We women have to be in the forefront to fight it too, said Shamima Javed, 38.
> 
> I am joining protests to express my solidarity with those women who lost their sons and daughters."Other women believe they should not become involved.
> 
> I am against protests. They affect education and the livelihoods of thousands, said Haleema Akhter, a retired woman in the southern town of Pampore. But even my own 40-year-old daughter and her children are not willing to listen. Syeda Afshana, a leading columnist and lecturer in the main Kashmir university, says the increasing female presence reflects the sense of injustice felt by Kashmiris.
> 
> Out on the streets, women are making their minds felt, Afshana told AFP.
> 
> By pelting stones, they are expressing their collective anger. AFP



at least indian women can protest in streets, unlike in pakistan


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## Break the Silence

Jana said:


> Mashallah  we should remember stones are worth-full weapons against Indian terrorist army just like Israeli terrorist army.
> 
> 
> to these Ladies
> 
> Now what will Indian apologists say about these ladies ??
> 
> They are on payroll of ISI



Are you happy after watching all this???????? Oh!! you are so happy...But Nothing going to be changed...


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## mjnaushad

ice_man said:


> i bet indians will come here and say this is funded by ISI LADIES WING!!


They came with this logic Years ago.....Watch this....ISI ladies wing


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## gurjot

Break the Silence said:


> Are you happy after watching all this???????? Oh!! you are so happy...But Nothing going to be changed...



let them to be happy.they r all happy with this.


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## Break the Silence

gurjot said:


> let them to be happy.they r all happy with this.



Even they starts of dreaming whenever such kind of unfateful incidents happens in Valley.


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## gurjot

Break the Silence said:


> Even they starts of dreaming whenever such kind of unfateful incidents happens in Valley.



i m really afraid of the dreams.


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## ice_man

gaurav yadav said:


> at least indian women can protest in streets, unlike in pakistan



 you are so dead!! everyone will jump you now! cuz you asked for it! wait for the wrath of JANA!

but for your knowledge WOMEN IN PAKISTAN are more liberated and free compared to india! be it military or politics or any other field of work! as for protests well in our country it seems women protest way more than anywhere!! be it PML(N) ki PUNJABAAN's or JINNAH hospital's nurses or be it (MY FAVOURITE) MARVI MEMON!


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## whocares

I am expecting stones being pelted at me by indian members(irony) but do you ever see a generation of Indians growing up, looking at kashmir and saying 'Naah, not worth the bother' ?

Discuss under what conditions this is possible, if at all.


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## Spring Onion

Break the Silence said:


> Are you happy after watching all this???????? Oh!! you are so happy...But Nothing going to be changed...



I am happy that despite terrorist and barbaric killings by Indian terrorist army in occupied Kashmir, these Kashmiri women have a high spirit to protest for their Country Kashmir against Indian occupation.

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## storm seeker

if smone is guilty abt it that will make the difference ....that shows change of thoughts and thats for gud


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## Awesome

Nobody can say for certain, but I think It won't take Generations if the current level of escalations continue. Sooner or later the Indian security forces won't have any cover from stones being hurled at them.


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## Break the Silence

Jana said:


> I am happy that despite terrorist and barbaric killings by Indian terrorist army in occupied Kashmir, these Kashmiri women have a high spirit to protest for their *Country Kashmir* against Indian occupation.



Omg!! who says, Kashmir is a country. May be its your fantasy. To clarify this, I want to tell you Kashmir is an UNDISTINGUISHABLE state of Republic of India...And you are happy like other war mongers..who use to be happy on neighbours Internal problems...Thats not gud Jana ji!!


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## billi

whocares said:


> I am expecting stones being pelted at me by indian members(irony) but do you ever see a generation of Indians growing up, looking at kashmir and saying 'Naah, not worth the bother' ?
> 
> Discuss under what conditions this is possible, if at all.



I think Kashmir should be given independence too.

Since Kashmir Valley is the only muslime majority that should be let go under conditions like:
- 10&#37; of Kashmir Valley iwll be in Indian hands to rehab Pandits. All other areas like jammu, kargil, leh/ladakh will be indian still
- P.O.K should merge with Kashmir valley and a democratic secular govt should come about , not some country calling itself Islamic republic of...
- Indus Water treaty with Pak should be cancelled, as most rivers flow thru kashmir and now its their headache. 
- Also terrorists wanted by India like maulana masood, salhuddin, dawood ibrahim, hafeez saeed should be handed over to india for prosecution

There is only 1 hitch in all this. Within 5 yrs Kashmir will become new haven of Islamic terrorists. Pak will NOT stop sending more terrorists from its soil into India as the ISI and Army will lose importance. So for India , it will just move from current headache to another headache. So its better to be in Kashmir. It is the Kashmiri muslims' choice whether to live in peace or get slaughtered.

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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Everybody has a right to protest ..as long as it is peaceful protest..Its good that even Kashmiri women participating equally...hope they remain peaceful ..and not engage in stone pelting...like their male counterparts.


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## rohailmalhi

And these indians were saying tht these protest are due to sum heroine thing.
Like the man told the youth to throw stone at army and in return u will get ur dose of herione or sumthing lie tht.
so now i think these ladies are also addictive to that thing and they are throwing stones coz they want there daily dose .............
Alas Big Shame on Indians using wrong tactics to bring bad name to the struggle of Kashmiris which is there for 60+ years and it will be there inshaallah till U(indian) realize tht Kashmir problem should be solved according to there demands.

 To people of Kashmir .May Allah help them getting there independence from occupied forces.


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## Break the Silence

> To people of Kashmir .May Allah help them getting there independence from occupied forces.




First, ask your govt. to do so !!

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## karan.1970

Nah! The whole Kashmir issue if anything is becoming more benign than it was 10-12 years back.


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## Awesome

Break the Silence said:


> Omg!! who says, Kashmir is a country. May be its your fantasy. To clarify this, I want to tell you Kashmir is an UNDISTINGUISHABLE state of Republic of India...And you are happy like other war mongers..who use to be happy on neighbours Internal problems...Thats not gud Jana ji!!


Who cares what you say, we are only listening to what Kashmiris say and the stones they hurl at anyone who says what you say

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## Break the Silence

Asim Aquil said:


> *Who cares what you say*, we are only listening to what Kashmiris say and the stones they hurl at anyone who says what you say


Same applies to you also and its on world level....

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## Spring Onion

gaurav yadav said:


> watch your mouth idiot and stop calling our soldiers terrorists,you are saying this all as if in your nation soldiers dont kill civilians in cold ways, you wanna know why women are ahead in protests, because it gives the mob an advantage because *hitting a woman in india by any means by a soldier directly amounts to court martial,* i have never seen feeble minded guys like you who go to the extereme extents by calling the soldiers as terrorists.




May be in India but not in Occupied Kashmir where Indian terrorist army is killing women directly. 

And if you wana know why these women protest then go read about terrorism of Indian invader army in occupied Kashmir


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## billi

storm seeker said:


> if smone is guilty abt it that will make the difference ....that shows change of thoughts and thats for gud



if anyone is guilty its pakistan, they are the only villains in this show.

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## ice_man

billi said:


> I think Kashmir should be given independence too.
> 
> Since Kashmir Valley is the only muslime majority that should be let go under conditions like:
> - 10&#37; of Kashmir Valley iwll be in Indian hands to rehab Pandits.
> - P.O.K should merge with Kashmir valley and a democratic secular govt should come about , not some country calling itself Islamic republic of...
> - Indus Water treaty with Pak should be cancelled, as most rivers flow thru kashmir and now its their headache.
> - Also terrorists wanted by India like maulana masood, salhuddin, dawood ibrahim, hafeez saeed should be handed over to india for prosecution
> 
> There is only 1 hitch in all this. Within 5 yrs Kashmir will become new haven of Islamic terrorists. Pak will NOT stop sending more terrorists from its soil into India as the ISI and Army will lose importance. So for India , it will just move from current headache to another headache. So its better to be in Kashmir. It is the Kashmiri muslims' choice whether to live in peace or get slaughtered.




*your stand is just INDIAN and NOT KASHMIRI or NEUTRAL! we are handing over nobody! but we CAN discuss the uniting of both kashmirs and giving them there freedom after all AZAAD KASHMIR IS AZAAD ITS THEIR CHOICE TO MAKE!as for name of kashmir NOT BEING ALLOWED TO BE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF! well if they want they cann call themselves the DEUTSCHLAND OR FATHERLAND or whatever it is NON of your or our concern after all they will be "INDEPENDENT" *

as for pakistan will still carry on terrorism! FIRSTLY PAKISTAN DOES NO TERRORISM IN INDIA PERIOD! 

secondly your logic of staying in kashmir brings you back to where you started to the current stalemate!


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## Break the Silence

Jana said:


> May be in India but not in Occupied Kashmir *where Indian terrorist army is killing women directly*.
> 
> And if you wana know why these women protest then go read about terrorism of Indian invader army in occupied Kashmir



well, plz bother to provide a source or shut your nuisense.


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## storm seeker

billi said:


> I think Kashmir should be given independence too.
> 
> Since Kashmir Valley is the only muslime majority that should be let go under conditions like:
> - 10% of Kashmir Valley iwll be in Indian hands to rehab Pandits.
> - P.O.K should merge with Kashmir valley and a democratic secular govt should come about , not some country calling itself Islamic republic of...
> - *Indus Water treaty with Pak should be cancelled, as most rivers flow thru kashmir and now its their headache*.
> - *Also terrorists wanted by India like maulana masood, salhuddin, dawood ibrahim, hafeez saeed should be handed over to india for prosecution*
> *There is only 1 hitch in all this. Within 5 yrs Kashmir will become new haven of Islamic terrorists.* Pak will NOT stop sending more terrorists from its soil into India as the ISI and Army will lose importance. So for India , it will just move from current headache to another headache. So its better to be in Kashmir. It is the Kashmiri muslims' choice whether to live in peace or get slaughtered.







pakistan has no grudge with india other than kashmir ..... the rest cud be solved by dialogue ...... we accept the above conditions ..... happy


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## Patriot

Can't speak for Indians but i am fed up of Kashmir thing.Screw Kashmir for all i care.Our leaders can't ******* develop our economy but keep crying about Kashmir while brutalizing their own people with fantasies of Ghaze-Hind and Islamic brotherhood when they can't even control their small country.We should just develop Pakistani Kashmir and make it top notch and then offer migration to Indian Kashmiris so they can come here and live in peace.

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## Brotherhood

roach said:


> Hello to my Armchair Pakistani Kashmiri-loving friends.
> 
> I am deeply touched by your 'spontaneous' outpourings of solidarity for the downtrodden Kashmiri brethren.
> 
> I would like to remind you that all these videos, pictures and news clips are made/distributed with the knowledge and even support of Indian institutions like the press and human rights organizations. It is messy, yes. We know. We've seen much worse, and we're not half as worried as you are excited and frothing at the mouth at the prospect of a dismemberment of India, in return of incidents that are in the past and I shall not bring up.
> 
> I have, however, seen some glaring double standards practiced by all of you pious and indignant Muslims.
> 
> Your best friend and close ally China has a terrible record when it comes to prosecuting minorities, particularly Uighurs. That is a black hole when it comes to information. It reminds me of a case I knew where a father was raping his daughter for years, and the child's mother pretended like she did not know what was going on BECAUSE SHE COULD NOT PROVE IT (I don't waaaaana knowwwww)
> I'm not even going to talk about Tibet, those are kaffirs so I don't really expect you to give a damn.
> 
> So while I'm touched by your sympathy for the Kashmiris, I wonder why nobody here has the b**** or the desire to speak about the Uighurs. I leave you with some links to neutral sources.
> 
> Enjoy, and get back to Kashmir and forget these poor bastards, coz China's gonna get pissed otherwise and then you'd be all alone.
> 
> Uighurs returned to China 'disappear' says rights group
> BBC News - Uighurs returned to China 'disappear' says rights group
> 
> What lies behind the unrest involving Muslim Uighurs in China?
> China and the Uighurs: Q&A | World news | guardian.co.uk
> 
> Uighurs must fight for rights within China
> Uighurs must fight for rights within China | The Australian




You low-life loser, everytime when you Indians running out of arguments regarding IOK issue, you drag China into it, did you found any Chinese member comment on this thread? and most of all better shut the f...up when you know nothing about whats going on in China with the so-called uighurs issue, its our internal affairs, what the hell its related to you and this thread?
Neutral source? who the hell you trying to fool? If you looking for a flame war, you are most welcome, i got tons of your dirty secrets to entertain you non stop.
Now get the f... out of my face for good you dirty roach.


----------



## Break the Silence

ice_man said:


> *your stand is just INDIAN and NOT KASHMIRI or NEUTRAL! we are handing over nobody! but we CAN discuss the uniting of both kashmirs and giving them there freedom after all AZAAD KASHMIR IS AZAAD ITS THEIR CHOICE TO MAKE!as for name of kashmir NOT BEING ALLOWED TO BE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF! well if they want they cann call themselves the DEUTSCHLAND OR FATHERLAND or whatever it is NON of your or our concern after all they will be "INDEPENDENT" *
> 
> as for pakistan will still carry on terrorism! FIRSTLY PAKISTAN DOES NO TERRORISM IN INDIA PERIOD!
> 
> secondly your logic of staying in kashmir brings you back to where you started to the current stalemate!



Are you talking on behalf of Pakistan Government??


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## whocares

storm seeker said:


> if smone is guilty abt it that will make the difference ....that shows change of thoughts and thats for gud



i don't think there is any guilt in India about Kashmir, but as long as there are no terror attacks on the rest of India public opinion will move from possessiveness to indifference very slowly over time, with a few left wing nutters shedding tears too.

the number of indians who don't give a flying f*** to either kashmir or pakistan will keep on increasing slowly but steadily as long as there are peaceful protests and importantly no attacks on the indian mainland.

i've been to the valley and i personally found nothing particularly glorious or beautiful worth keeping with lacs of security personnel.

of course, this post is really about public opinion and not about government action based on national interest, which is a different animal altogether.


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## storm seeker

billi said:


> if anyone is guilty its pakistan, they are the only villains in this show.



not one in pakistan ut there are sm in india 
why should we have to be guilty after all


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## billi

ice_man said:


> *your stand is just INDIAN and NOT KASHMIRI or NEUTRAL! we are handing over nobody! but we CAN discuss the uniting of both kashmirs and giving them there freedom after all AZAAD KASHMIR IS AZAAD ITS THEIR CHOICE TO MAKE!as for name of kashmir NOT BEING ALLOWED TO BE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF! well if they want they cann call themselves the DEUTSCHLAND OR FATHERLAND or whatever it is NON of your or our concern after all they will be "INDEPENDENT" *
> 
> as for pakistan will still carry on terrorism! FIRSTLY PAKISTAN DOES NO TERRORISM IN INDIA PERIOD!
> 
> secondly your logic of staying in kashmir brings you back to where you started to the current stalemate!



Well if you dont agree to handover Indian criminals then , you are the ones who are causing Kashmir not to be independent.

Pakistan has laways exported terror into india. your own govt admitted it.

Since Pak will not stop sending terror into India whether we leave Kashmir or not, I feel its better for India to stand its ground in Kashmir rather then leave kashmir and still experience the same terror.

---------- Post added at 02:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 PM ----------




storm seeker said:


> not one in pakistan ut there are sm in india
> why should we have to be guilty after all



samajdaar ko ishaar hi kaafi hai


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## Masterchief

Jana said:


> May be in India but not in Occupied Kashmir where Indian terrorist army is killing women directly.
> 
> And if you wana know why these women protest then go read about terrorism of Indian invader army in occupied Kashmir



i have never heard or seen instances of this, in pak occupied kashmir too people are not happy with being in hands of pakistan, remember in 1948 your own forces went rampaging in kashmir killing women and children mercilessly, indian army doesnt have trigger happy men who kill at ease, when people are attributed being killed by forces in kashmir a court of enquiry sits if found guilty the men responsible are court martialed .even now in protests ,on 5 CRPF soldiers and officers a court of enquiry has been setup, our forces arent fools your forces may kill your own men and go free but its not like that here in india.


----------



## ice_man

roach said:


> Hello to my Armchair Pakistani Kashmiri-loving friends.
> 
> I am deeply touched by your 'spontaneous' outpourings of solidarity for the downtrodden Kashmiri brethren.
> 
> I would like to remind you that all these videos, pictures and news clips are made/distributed with the knowledge and even support of Indian institutions like the press and human rights organizations. It is messy, yes. We know. We've seen much worse, and we're not half as worried as you are excited and frothing at the mouth at the prospect of a dismemberment of India, in return of incidents that are in the past and I shall not bring up.
> 
> I have, however, seen some glaring double standards practiced by all of you pious and indignant Muslims.
> 
> Your best friend and close ally China has a terrible record when it comes to prosecuting minorities, particularly Uighurs. That is a black hole when it comes to information. It reminds me of a case I knew where a father was raping his daughter for years, and the child's mother pretended like she did not know what was going on BECAUSE SHE COULD NOT PROVE IT (I don't waaaaana knowwwww)
> I'm not even going to talk about Tibet, those are kaffirs so I don't really expect you to give a damn.
> 
> So while I'm touched by your sympathy for the Kashmiris, I wonder why nobody here has the b**** or the desire to speak about the Uighurs. I leave you with some links to neutral sources.
> 
> Enjoy, and get back to Kashmir and forget these poor bastards, coz China's gonna get pissed otherwise and then you'd be all alone.
> 
> Uighurs returned to China 'disappear' says rights group
> BBC News - Uighurs returned to China 'disappear' says rights group
> 
> What lies behind the unrest involving Muslim Uighurs in China?
> China and the Uighurs: Q&A | World news | guardian.co.uk
> 
> Uighurs must fight for rights within China
> Uighurs must fight for rights within China | The Australian



Firstly Uighurs is not a disputed territory or occupied territory! like kashmir is! 

IF and i say again BIG IF this dad raping daughter kind of thing is happening in UIGHURS then WE condemn it be it any part of the world!! if the chinese are killing innocent people in UIGHURS ofcourse we condemn it we condemn any nation of involvedin such atrocities! be it bosnia or Palestine or KASHMIR!! 
*
but do the indians stop trade with israel for killing palestanians? do you stop DIPLOMATIC COURTSHIP WITH ISRAEL??? ofcourse not then if the rising shinning ohhhh all mighty india doesn't do it you can't expect us (according to indians) barbaric naive pakistanis to do it can you???*


by the way do we discuss NAXAL PROBLEM IN INDIA??? NO REASON IS BECAUSE THAT IS INDIA'S INTERNAL PROBLEM


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## billi

storm seeker said:


> pakistan has no grudge with india other than kashmir ..... the rest cud be solved by dialogue ...... we accept the above conditions ..... happy



No, Pak has a grudge with india's existence. It will find a new way to send terror. It will first send its errorists to Kashmir like it is doing in Afghanistan and thats the end of Kashmir and peace. Pak wants to be the king of ruins.


----------



## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Brotherhood said:


> You low-life loser, everytime when you Indians running out of arguments regarding IOK issue, you drag China into it, did you found any Chinese member comment on this thread? and most of all better shut the f...up when you know nothing about whats going on in China with the so-called uighurs issue, its our internal affairs, what the hell its related to you and this thread?
> Neutral source? who the hell you trying to fool? If you looking for a flame war, you are most welcome, i got tons of your dirty secrets to entertain you non stop.
> Now get the f... out of my face for good you dirty roach.



*Don't mind we are just exposing Pakistan's double standards ..on this whole "human right issue"...actually it is their hypocrisy.
*
if they were so upright about preservation of human rights through out the world ..*they would have been equally vocal about violation of human rights in China or Pakistan itself, like they are vocal about kashmir or Gaza.*

So it not about China but Pakistan.


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## storm seeker

whocares said:


> i don't think there is any guilt in India about Kashmir, but as long as there are no terror attacks on the rest of India public opinion will move from possessiveness to indifference very slowly over time, with a few left wing nutters shedding tears too.
> 
> the number of indians who don't give a flying f*** to either kashmir or pakistan will keep on increasing slowly but steadily as long as there are peaceful protests and importantly no attacks on the indian mainland.
> 
> *i've been to the valley and i personally found nothing particularly glorious or beautiful worth keeping with lacs of security personnel.*
> of course, this post is really about public opinion and not about government action based on national interest, which is a different animal altogether.




we need kashmir not bcz of its beautiful valley we have plenty of beauty in our country .......
so that means u wanna keep india just bcz of possessiveness and wat abt of millions of ppl burning there ??? 
ur problem is u wanna put every type of prob in india weather these are naxalites or bomb attacks on pakistan and after that u wanna keep kashmir to punish us but infact u are punishing urself

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## roach

Brotherhood said:


> You low-life loser, everytime when you Indians running out of arguments regarding IOK issue, you drag China into it, did you found any Chinese member comment on this thread? and most of all better shut the f...up when you know nothing about whats going on in China with the so-called uighurs issue, its our internal affairs, what the hell its related to you and this thread?
> Neutral source? who the hell you trying to fool? If you looking for a flame war, you are most welcome, i got tons of your dirty secrets to entertain you non stop.
> Now get the f... out of my face for good you dirty roach.



Owwwwwwwwwwwww that seems to have hit a soft spot!!

Dear Brotherhood, you are usually a very civil and decent chap. I wonder what made the mask slip and start calling me names and getting personal. 

In my experience, that usually happens when someone gets dangerously close to a guilty secret. I do apologize for offending you. China has done a better job of controlling unrest. It's simple,,,,,don't let anyone know! You do realize that you come on to a Kashmir thread and secretly gloat at India's discomfiture......

All I'm trying to show up is the double standards of these indignant Pakistani people. None of them will have anything to say about my post. They can't really say anything except call me names, like you.

Peace, bro.


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## billi

storm seeker said:


> we need kashmir not bcz of its beautiful valley we have plenty of beauty in our country .......
> so that means u wanna keep india just bcz of possessiveness and wat abt of millions of ppl burning there ???
> ur problem is u wanna put every type of prob in india weather these are naxalites or bomb attacks on pakistan and after that u wanna keep kashmir to punish us but infact u are punishing urself



see.. you say you need Kashmir, so if India leaves kashmir can never be independent, it will be fully occupied by pakistan. anyways 90% of Kashmir excluding the valley is now occupied by pak


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## Patriot

Billi You're naive.While Pakistan has done a lot of things to India which has hurt India but India is no virgin.It has hurt Pakistan too.


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## WaghaBorder

If it takes to kill people to maintain law and order then be it. There is no choice.

Your Tallel than mountain, deepel than ocean friends did exactly the same in tinamen square. 10000 men and women at a time with tanks and army artillery.

We reserve the exclusive right for managing our affairs. We will kill even those like you who question our authority to do so or meddle in our affairs by means of your bas.tard proxies.


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## Guynextdoor

ice_man said:


> *your stand is just INDIAN and NOT KASHMIRI or NEUTRAL! we are handing over nobody! but we CAN discuss the uniting of both kashmirs and giving them there freedom after all AZAAD KASHMIR IS AZAAD ITS THEIR CHOICE TO MAKE!as for name of kashmir NOT BEING ALLOWED TO BE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF! well if they want they cann call themselves the DEUTSCHLAND OR FATHERLAND or whatever it is NON of your or our concern after all they will be "INDEPENDENT" *
> 
> as for pakistan will still carry on terrorism! FIRSTLY PAKISTAN DOES NO TERRORISM IN INDIA PERIOD!
> 
> secondly your logic of staying in kashmir brings you back to where you started to the current stalemate!


Azad Kashmir is a goddamn Joke. Hell their plight is far worse than Kashmir's. India was never founded on relegious majority/minority so kashmir having muslim majority is of no consequece. No compromises. Kashmir is India's.

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## billi

Patriot said:


> Billi You're naive.While Pakistan has done a lot of things to India which has hurt India but India is no virgin.It has hurt Pakistan too.



I dont know what india has done. There is not one Hindu sent by india who has gone on the streets of Karachi and killed innocent.
Not 1 hindu/indian has hijacked pak planes to release terrorists.
india at most does intelligence gathering and maybe give moral support. BUT the big difference is that Pak is the firs attacker , india only reacts.

Secondly, my whole point is that, altho I would like to see India leave kashmir, India cannot afford to leave it , otherwise Pakistan will send more terror to india

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## whocares

storm seeker said:


> we need kashmir not bcz of its beautiful valley we have plenty of beauty in our country .......
> so that means u wanna keep india just bcz of possessiveness and wat abt of millions of ppl burning there ???
> ur problem is u wanna put every type of prob in india weather these are naxalites or bomb attacks on pakistan and after that u wanna keep kashmir to punish us but infact u are punishing urself



dude, i am not discussing pakistani opinion. i am talking about indian public opinion and no one here blames naxal and maoist attacks on pakistan, thats just some fringe junk.

anyway, the thread is to discuss evolution of indian public opinion and lets stick to that.


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## storm seeker

billi said:


> No, Pak has a grudge with india's existence. It will find a new way to send terror. It will first send its errorists to Kashmir like it is doing in Afghanistan and thats the end of Kashmir and peace. Pak wants to be the king of ruins.



its ur policy to destroy everyone as u once attempted in 1971 
now dont start yelling these were bangalis who want independance i know it all ........ atleast we were better than u, we left it.
pakistan never chanted on world forum abt naxalites and other probs in kashmir while india keep doing it , it keeps on pokin its nose in probs of nwfp areas ......


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## Spring Onion

Break the Silence said:


> well, plz bother to provide a source or shut your nuisense.



*INDIAN TERRORIST ARMY and their TERRORISM*

*Kashmiri women raped & killed stoke anger at Indian Forces*


By LYDIA POLGREEN


SHOPIAN, Kashmir  On a sunny late spring afternoon, Asiya and Nilofa Jan left home to tend to their familys apple orchard. Along the way they passed a gantlet of police camps wreathed in razor wire as they crossed the bridge over the ankle-deep Rambi River.

Little more than 12 hours later their battered bodies were found in the stream. Asiya, a 17-year-old high school student, had been badly beaten. Blood streamed from her nose and a sharp gash in her forehead. She and her 22-year-old sister-in-law, Nilofa, had been gang raped before their deaths.
*
The crime, and allegations of a bungled attempt by the local police to cover it up, set off months of sporadic street protests here in the Indian-controlled part of Kashmir. It is now the focal point for seemingly bottomless Kashmiri rage at the continuing presence of roughly 500,000 Indian security forces. The forces remain, though the violence by separatist militants whom they came here to fight in the past few years has ebbed to its lowest point in two decades.*

India says Kashmir is a free part of a free country, said Majid Khan, a 20-year-old unemployed man who has joined the stone-throwing mobs. If that is so, why are we being brutalized? Why are women gang raped?

India and Pakistan have fought two wars over Kashmir, and the Himalayan border region remains at the heart of the 62-year rivalry between the nuclear-armed neighbors.

Settling the Kashmir dispute is the key to unlocking the regions tensions, something the United States hopes will eliminate Pakistans shadowy support for militant groups and allow its army to shift attention toward fighting Taliban militants.

Despite Kashmiri rage and the damage to Indias image, the Indian government has bridled at any outside pressure to negotiate a solution, let alone reduce its force level here.* Caught in the middle are Kashmirs 10 million people. The case of Asiya and Nilofa is only the latest abuse to strike a chord with Kashmiris, who say it is emblematic of the problems of what amounts to a full-scale occupation.*

*Kashmir has its own police force, but it works in close tandem with the Indian forces here and is seen by many as virtually indistinguishable from them. Four Kashmiri officers are suspected of trying to cover up the crime.*
*
Kashmiri activists and human rights groups say that rapes by men in uniform, extrajudicial killings and a lack of redress are endemic, not least because security forces are largely shielded from prosecution by laws put in place when Indian troops were battling a once-potent insurgency here. Both local and national security forces here operate with impunity, they say.*

Last summer a dispute over land for Hindu pilgrims between Kashmiris, who are mostly Muslims, and the regions Hindu administrators, set off weeks of massive demonstrations as well.

The question for India, Kashmiris say, is whether the huge security presence is doing more harm than good.

Maybe at some point in time when the militants were in the thousands it made sense to have so many soldiers here, said Mehbooba Mufti, leader of a major opposition party here. But at this point they are not helping in any way. Their mere presence has become a source of friction.

Indian government officials disagree and point to statistics showing a decline in infiltration from Pakistan as proof that their tough methods have worked.

According to the government, 557 civilians died in 2005 in what the government calls terrorist violence in Jammu and Kashmir, which is Indias full name for the area. By 2008 that number had plummeted to 91. The number of militants killed has fallen by nearly two-thirds, while the deaths of security personnel in the region have been more than halved. Where tens of thousands of armed men once roamed, government officials now estimate there are as few as 500.

Analysts say that other events have also played a role in reducing militancy and infiltration. Secret talks between India and Pakistan over Kashmir made progress but broke down in 2007, when Pakistans president at the time, Pervez Musharraf, began losing his grip on power.

In addition, after two decades of militant separatism, in December 2008 voters ignored separatist calls for a boycott and cast ballots in huge numbers in state assembly elections. It was a hopeful sign that Kashmiris believed they could influence their destiny by peaceful means.

The election brought Omar Abdullah, the scion of Kashmirs most famous political family, to power as chief minister of the state. He promised to roll back the laws that shielded Indian security forces in Kashmir from oversight, and to put Kashmirs police force, rather than federal police and troops, at the forefront of securing the region. But that has not happened, and the details of the Shopian killings have fed the darkest and most personal fears of Kashmiris as the investigation into the deaths has stalled.

Who does not see their wife in Nilofa, their daughter in Asiya? said Abdul Rashid Dalal, who lives in Shopian.

Nilofa and Asiya Jan had walked to the orchard around 3:30 p.m. on Friday, May 29. When Shakeel Ahmad Ahanger, Nilofas husband, came home at 7:30 p.m., the two had not yet returned. He went to search for them but found no trace.

By 9:30 p.m. he was frantic. He went to the police station, and along with several officers scoured their route, including the shallow bed of the Rambi River. The police called off the search at 2:30 a.m., urging Mr. Ahanger to return at daybreak. After his dawn prayers, he went back to the bridge with police officials.

Look, there is your wife, the local police chief said to Mr. Ahanger, pointing at a body lying prone on some rocks in a dry patch in the middle of the stream.

He rushed to her, but she was dead. Her dress had been hiked up, exposing her midriff. Her body was bruised. I knew immediately something very bad had happened to her, Mr. Ahanger said. His sister was found a mile downstream. Their bodies were taken for autopsies, but the cause of death seemed clear to residents who have longed lived in the shadow of the security forces.

Two girls disappear next to an armed camp, said Abdul Hamid Deva, a member of a committee of elders set up in response to the killings. Their bodies then mysteriously appear in a river next to the camp. It does not take much imagination to know what is likely to have happened.

Town residents gathered at the hospital for the autopsy results. Initially a doctor said the women drowned. But the crowd rejected the conclusion; the stream was barely ankle deep. Residents pelted the hospital with stones. A second team of doctors was called in. They confirmed that the women had been raped.

What was done to these women even animals could not have done, the gynecologist who examined the women told the crowd, weeping as she spoke, according to witnesses.

Two men who had been at a shop near the bridge would later tell investigators they saw a police truck parked on the bridge and heard women crying for help.

Initially, the chief minister, Mr. Abdullah, also told reporters that the women had drowned. Later security officials said that advisers had misinformed him. A few days later he acknowledged that the women had come to harm and appointed a commission to investigate. But investigators say that crucial evidence has been lost and that they are no closer to finding the culprits despite the arrest of four local police officers on suspicion of a cover-up.

Kuldeep Khoda, the director general of Kashmirs police force, admitted that his forces had made mistakes. There is a prima facie feeling there was destruction of evidence, whether deliberate or inadvertent, Mr. Khoda said. The investigation is going on and the results of that investigation will come.

Indian government officials say that the security forces here are needed to head off more insurgent violence or a Pakistani invasion. If there would not be a war that is fought by external forces, our soldiers would not be there, said a senior Indian intelligence official, referring to groups in Pakistan.

But residents of Shopian say the security forces are the only threat. The only thing I can do now is hope justice will be done, said Mr. Ahanger, Nilofas husband, who is struggling to care for his 2-year-old son, Suzain. Nobody is safe in Kashmir  even a child, an elderly man, a young girl. Nobody is safe.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/16/wo...gewanted=print


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## barcelona

that is why heads of leader around the world call you epic centre of terrorism


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## storm seeker

whocares said:


> dude, i am not discussing pakistani opinion. i am talking about indian public opinion and no one here blames naxal and maoist attacks on pakistan, thats just some fringe junk.
> 
> anyway, the thread is to discuss evolution of indian public opinion and lets stick to that.



yup ..... carry on


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## WaghaBorder

^^^

They died of drowninng and not due to rape. Petty and Foolish journalism by foolish and propagandist (so called) "journalists"


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## ice_man

billi said:


> Well if you dont agree to handover Indian criminals then , you are the ones who are causing Kashmir not to be independent.
> 
> Pakistan has laways exported terror into india. your own govt admitted it.
> 
> Since Pak will not stop sending terror into India whether we leave Kashmir or not, I feel its better for India to stand its ground in Kashmir rather then leave kashmir and still experience the same terror.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> samajdaar ko ishaar hi kaafi hai




we never sent any STATE TERRORISM ACROSS! and INDIA can't prove that! and you know it! 

and the ROOT CAUSE of all problems is KASHMIR solve kashmir and freedom groups and fighters will have no motive left to fight for!


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## billi

storm seeker said:


> its ur policy to destroy everyone as u once attempted in 1971
> now dont start yelling these were bangalis who want independance i know it all ........ atleast we were better than u, we left it.
> pakistan never chanted on world forum abt naxalites and other probs in kashmir while india keep doing it , it keeps on pokin its nose in probs of nwfp areas ......



Dont simplify the problem. Pakistan killed 3 million Banglas, they were puring into India. No Kashmiri is pouring into Pak. Also, Pak didnt leave it, they were made to go, india captured 91000 Muslim soldiers and generously let them go. but you guys during kargil mutilated the genitals of 2-3 indian soldiers.
we dont go about destroying pak, you did it to yourselves. thats what many people in your country say too.


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## ice_man

Guynextdoor said:


> Azad Kashmir is a goddamn Joke. Hell their plight is far worse than Kashmir's. India was never founded on relegious majority/minority so kashmir having muslim majority is of no consequece. No compromises. Kashmir is India's.



thank you my point proven indians don't want to solve kashmir! its not pakistan but india that doesn't want to solve kashmir


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## storm seeker

billi said:


> see.. you say you need Kashmir, so if India leaves kashmir can never be independent, it will be fully occupied by pakistan. anyways 90% of Kashmir excluding the valley is now occupied by pak



we want it indipendant or in wat ever state but not with india ...... 
then let 10 % go independant


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## billi

ice_man said:


> we never sent any STATE TERRORISM ACROSS! and INDIA can't prove that! and you know it!
> 
> and the ROOT CAUSE of all problems is KASHMIR solve kashmir and freedom groups and fighters will have no motive left to fight for!



see your govt accepted that these terrorist were from Pak. When these guys come to India they will not carry the flag of Pak or the great seal of your country. they were talking to various people from ISI. 
kashmir is not root cause. Pakistan is. Even if Kashmir is solved according to your liking you will not stop sending terror


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## Brotherhood

roach said:


> Owwwwwwwwwwwww that seems to have hit a soft spot!!
> 
> Dear Brotherhood, you are usually a very civil and decent chap. I wonder what made the mask slip and start calling me names and getting personal.
> 
> In my experience, that usually happens when someone gets dangerously close to a guilty secret. I do apologize for offending you. China has done a better job of controlling unrest. It's simple,,,,,don't let anyone know! You do realize that you come on to a Kashmir thread and secretly gloat at India's discomfiture......
> 
> All I'm trying to show up is the double standards of these indignant Pakistani people. None of them will have anything to say about my post. They can't really say anything except call me names, like you.
> 
> Peace, bro.




Key word=disputed and undisputed area, hopefully you smart enough to understood the difference, soft spot? as i said you know nothing whats going on in China, who are the real victims in the so-called killing uighurs issue.
Any Chinese will be piss by all those lies from the western media while the truth was hundred of hans Chinese were being killed instead.
Now keep us out of this and i will leave your discussion alone.


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## barcelona

"Kashmiri women raped & killed stoke anger at Indian Forces" ................................................do you have any proof regarding this go follow the case & see post mortem report submitted wchich clearly says drowning ............................................i do want to know how a person becomes journalist in pakistan m very curiouse

Reactions: Like Like:
3


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## billi

storm seeker said:


> we want it indipendant or in wat ever state but not with india ......
> then let 10 % go independant



see you are not interested in Kashmirs welfare, because you are prepared to see it in 'whatever state' India cares for kashmiris welfare and gives them special rights


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## storm seeker

billi said:


> Dont simplify the problem. Pakistan killed 3 million Banglas, they were puring into India. No Kashmiri is pouring into Pak. Also, Pak didnt leave it, they were made to go, india captured 91000 Muslim soldiers and generously let them go. but you guys during kargil mutilated the genitals of 2-3 indian soldiers.
> we dont go about destroying pak, you did it to yourselves. thats what many people in your country say too.



kashmiris will pour in pakistan if u will open the border ......... but the borders are as tight as crabs buttux...... yes u left our soldiers generously and in such a gud condition that most of them died within 2-3 years .... sm ppl say this yes who are not interested in news... coz they dont know international scenario


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## storm seeker

billi said:


> see you are not interested in Kashmirs welfare, because you are prepared to see it in 'whatever state' India cares for kashmiris welfare and gives them special rights



oh god ........ im saying in watever physical state /...... the state in which they wanna live ....... and plz tell ur gove dont give them special rights


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## mjnaushad

barcelona said:


> "Kashmiri women raped & killed stoke anger at Indian Forces" ................................................do you have any proof regarding this go follow the case & see post mortem report submitted wchich clearly says drowning ............................................i do want to know how a person becomes journalist in pakistan m very curiouse


We know your postmartems reports......

Khalid Mehmood was also died natural death according to postmartem.... But hey what was that little black hole on his body.....???


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## billi

storm seeker said:


> kashmiris will pour in pakistan if u will open the border ......... but the borders are as tight as crabs buttux...... yes u left our soldiers generously and in such a gud condition that most of them died within 2-3 years .... sm ppl say this yes who are not interested in news... coz they dont know international scenario



- your soldiers were killed by your own army to prove a point maybe
- kashmiris can go from india to pak easily only they cant do the reverse. Even a crabs *** has 1 way traffic.


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## WaghaBorder

---------------------


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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> Awesome... Love their spirit. India will not be able to handle Kashmir any more.


 
Dream on! 

Nice to know that civilians getting killed in violence amounts to an awesome feeling for you because it puts pressure on Indian govt..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## WaghaBorder

mjnaushad said:


> We know your postmartems reports......
> 
> Khalid Mehmood was also died natural death according to postmartem.... But hey what was that little black hole on his body.....???



Who the hell is this mehmood?? We are a credible nation not like the ones who get publicly insulted for its misdeeds by head of other states.


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## Raghu

Jana said:


> *INDIAN TERRORIST ARMY and their TERRORISM*
> 
> *Kashmiri women raped & killed stoke anger at Indian Forces*
> 
> 
> By LYDIA POLGREEN
> 
> 
> SHOPIAN, Kashmir  On a sunny late spring afternoon, Asiya and Nilofa Jan left home to tend to their familys apple orchard. Along the way they passed a gantlet of police camps wreathed in razor wire as they crossed the bridge over the ankle-deep Rambi River.



blah blah...

Sophian deaths were proved that they caused by drowning.
*One of the women was found to be virgin.*

Even a rank liberal communist journalist like Harider Baweja did a sting op that showed captured separatists talking about the whole conspiracy to blame paramilitary for the incident.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## storm seeker

billi said:


> - your soldiers were killed by your own army to prove a point maybe
> - kashmiris can go from india to pak easily only they cant do the reverse. Even a crabs *** has 1 way traffic.



yeah who wants to go back then ... they will not come to pakistan for summer vacations i guess ...... 
we are not u ppl killing there own men


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## Awesome

Break the Silence said:


> Same applies to you also and its on world level....


Funny thing is the people you're so zabardasti trying to call your own are throwing jootay on the face of your soldiers.

We can all SEE the truth.


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## Spring Onion

barcelona said:


> "Kashmiri women raped & killed stoke anger at Indian Forces" ................................................do you have any proof regarding this go follow the case & see post mortem report submitted wchich clearly says drowning ............................................i do want to know how a person becomes journalist in pakistan m very curiouse



The world knows about that altered report that too after a looooooooooongggggggggggg time 

So LAY OFF AND DONT PRESENT EXCUSES FOR *INDIAN TERRORISM IN KASKHIR *


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## Dash

ejaz007 said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble. Kashmir is disputed. Here is the actual map:
> 
> http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/seasia.pdf


You bursted my bubble??, hell no...

Kashmir is ours and we enforce the law and order in Kashmir. The owner of the land is currently government of India.

Who says its disputed, we never said Kashmir is disputed..
So I guess I busted your logics...


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## Awesome

karan.1970 said:


> Dream on!
> 
> Nice to know that civilians getting killed in violence amounts to an awesome feeling for you because it puts pressure on Indian govt..


Kashmiri are not a phattu kaum, they are ready to give sacrifices for their freedom. That is an awesome trait to have in a nation.


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## Haywards 5000

barcelona said:


> "Kashmiri women raped & killed stoke anger at Indian Forces" ................................................do you have any proof regarding this go follow the case & see post mortem report submitted wchich clearly says drowning ............................................*i do want to know how a person becomes journalist in pakistan m very curiouse*


Very easy...just post these topics
->Blame US and Nato...
->post some crap about India.
->Blame isreal and RAW
->support kashmir
->Pakistan is superior
->Hindu zoinuist collabration 

eq...rupeenews,haqmunsi's blog,daily .pk,janashah

There u r...u got the degree of journalism


----------



## ice_man

billi said:


> see your govt accepted that these terrorist were from Pak. When these guys come to India they will not carry the flag of Pak or the great seal of your country. they were talking to various people from ISI.
> kashmir is not root cause. Pakistan is. Even if Kashmir is solved according to your liking you will not stop sending terror



well colonel Parhoit killed pakistanis by bombing samjhota express so doesthat make him your indian army invovled in killing of pakistanis??? give us colonel parhoit then! he was directly involved in killing of our people! 

do you have proof that kasab and boys were speaking to ISI??? you catch fishermen everyday but these boys got onto a boat rowed into india in 3 days got off and attacked you and you were clueless BUT you KNOW that they spoke to ISI agents!! 

so solve kashmir automatically the freedom struggle will end! and no more call to arms from kashmiris! 

pakistan is not the problem INDIAN self complex is! and as long as that remains indians can never move forward!! time for indians to stop making excuses!


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## WaghaBorder

Raghu said:


> blah blah...
> 
> Sophian deaths were proved that they caused by drowning.
> *One of the women was found to be virgin.*
> .



Slap in the @ss for all those who get an arousal with every unfortunate death in the valley and an orgasm everytime they put IA to the blame. In this case people floating the shopian propaganda.


----------



## roach

Brotherhood said:


> Key word=disputed and undisputed area, hopefully you smart enough to understood the difference, soft spot? as i said you know nothing whats going on in China, who are the real victims in the so-called killing uighurs issue.
> Any Chinese will be piss by all those lies from the western media while the truth was hundred of hans Chinese were being killed instead.
> Now keep us out of this and i will leave your discussion alone.



Ah, those wonderful words again....."Disputed Area"

So. Because the UN happened to be in on this issue 60 years ago, something the whole world (and the Chinese Government) has deliberately let go.....everybody uses the"disputed area" to stick their noses into the Kashmiri Trough. Do you know that China considers Kashmir as India's internal affair?

Let's not get into what the real truth is. I have never been to Kashmir in my adult life and I doubt if you've been to Xinjiang and met any Ughiurs. That stuff is strategy and geopolitics- people will always kill people and others will protest.

Back to the original topic- what I'm gently trying to tell our Pakistani friends is, "Don't pretend Kashmir is about Muslims. You don't really care. It's a personal India- Pakistan thing, have the guts to see it for what it is."

India and China understand "live and let live". Pakistanis need to do so, too. I had to drag China's name into it, just for the example.

Again, Peace bro


----------



## GUNNER

*ANALYSIS - India struggles to douse Kashmir's separatist fire*

*By Alistair Scrutton*

(Reuters) - India faces a full-blown separatist uprising in Kashmir that may sink hopes for peace in the strategic region as disaffected Muslim youth rebel against a government seen as leaderless, complacent and out of touch.

New Delhi paints the street protests as incited by Pakistan-based militants or radical bands of stone throwers. But the evidence is growing this may be a wider and spontaneous movement led by young Kashmiris angry at years of misrule.

Critics say the risk is that India's refusal to recognize the roots of the alienation may ignite a vicious cycle of violence and return Kashmir to the kind of upheaval seen during the 1990s.

It all bodes badly for a disputed region seen as key to wider long-term stability under South Asia's security arch of India, Pakistan and Afghanistan.

"This is the most serious challenge to central authority I have seen in 20 years," said Siddharth Varadarajan, strategic affairs editor of The Hindu newspaper. "And the government doesn't have much of a clue how to resolve it."

Muslim-majority Kashmir, which India and Pakistan both claim but rule in parts, has been racked by militancy since 1989 when an insurgency against Indian rule erupted. Around 47,000 people have died but militancy had fallen in the past few years.

The latest violence started with the death of a teenage student in early June. The region has been locked down for weeks, and protesters have defied curfews to attack police with stones and set security camps and police stations on fire.

The death toll in seven weeks has risen to at least 40, mostly demonstrators shot dead by police. Basic foods and fuel supplies are running short and families have been confined to their houses for days, with schools and businesses shut.

So polarised has it become that protesters seem more radical than their leaders. An appeal by Syed Ali Shah Geelani, a separatist hardliner, for peaceful protests went unheeded.

For many Kashmiris, the whole population appears to support the protests. Volunteers have established blood donation camps, pooled rice and vegetables in community kitchens and supplied food to patients in Srinagar hospitals.

"The protests seem to have taken a direction of their own, which we've never seen before," said well-known separatist leader Sajjad Gani Lone. "There is not a leader who could say stop the protests and they would stop it."

*VACUUM IN LEADERSHIP*

It did not have to be this way.

Only 18 months ago, hopes for peace in Kashmir grew after young Kashmiri leader Omar Abdullah, who is backed by the central government in New Delhi, won the state election on promises of ending injustice in the region and pushing economic development.

His election came only months after mass protests across the valley, then the biggest in two decades, sparked by a dispute over land for a Hindu shrine trust.

But those hopes were quickly dashed by Abdullah's own mistakes -- he was seen as detached from the problems of Kashmiris -- as well as alleged army abuses including the rape of young girls, and heavy handedness from India's government, such as the banning of pre-paid cellular phones and text messaging on security grounds.

"Omar has mishandled the situation but the real problem is that India's political leadership took their eyes off the ball," said political analyst Mahesh Rangarajan.

Home Minister P. Chidambaram says more than 1,000 security personnel were injured by protesters and that the government is open to a political settlement if demonstrators shun violence.

But over the last 18 months, New Delhi failed to move on any of Kashmir's contentious issues, including a widely hated law that gives special powers to the army such as holding suspects for up to two years without trial.

"It is all symbolic of the vacuum in Indian leadership," said political analyst Narasimhan Rao.

"This government is just moving from one controversy to another," he added, referring to government battles over high inflation to controversies over mismanagement in the build-up to the Commonwealth Games in New Delhi.

Indeed, the government appears to have little policy initiative to diffuse the crisis aside from just wearing down the protesters, perhaps hoping that the start of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan next week will help protests subside.

That same policy led the 2008 protests to tail off, a relief that proved only temporary.

"Kashmiris cannot offer the same degree of mobilisation forever," said Sheikh Showkat Hussain, a Kashmir university law teacher. "New Delhi interprets that as reconciliation by Kashmir. In reality, it is just a dormant volcano."

New Delhi does have a card up its sleeve. Despite the deaths and protesters, this is not the equivalent of China's Tibet.

While Kashmir was a diplomatic football in the 1990s, this time round the troubles have had little international resonance, with no criticism from the United Nations or the United States.

While Pakistan has made some diplomatic noise, there is little sign that the disturbances will impact on relations that are tentatively improving after the 2008 Mumbai attacks.

"Compared to a decade ago, no one is willing to annoy India," said Varadarajan. "It carries too much weight globally. In this region, the world 's eyes are on Afghanistan, not Kashmir."


----------



## billi

storm seeker said:


> yeah who wants to go back then ... they will not come to pakistan for summer vacations i guess ......
> we are not u ppl killing there own men



as claimed by you, no one can live for 2-3 years and then die.
Assume they died in pak after india handed them over. so you are saying they did mauj-masti for 2-3 yrs and then died? WAH!!


----------



## WaghaBorder

Haywards 5000 said:


> Very easy...just post these topics
> ->Blame US and Nato...
> ->post some crap about India.
> ->Blame isreal and RAW
> ->support kashmir
> ->Pakistan is superior
> ->Hindu zoinuist collabration
> 
> eq...rupeenews,haqmunsi's blog,daily .pk,janashah
> 
> There u r...u got the degree of journalism



Write average blogs, have a website and join local press club (even if you are a trainee typewriter in some average newspaper) and also join 20-25 defence forums parallely. 

You have become a local journalist.


----------



## fawwaxs

Brave men never harm a woman but brave slum dog Police and army feels proud to fire at women












Brave Indian Policeman breaking window panes of a bus with Kashmiri women


----------



## ajpirzada

By Alistair Scrutton

(Reuters) - India faces a full-blown separatist uprising in Kashmir that may sink hopes for peace in the strategic region as disaffected Muslim youth rebel against a government seen as leaderless, complacent and out of touch.

New Delhi paints the street protests as incited by Pakistan-based militants or radical bands of stone throwers. But the evidence is growing this may be a wider and spontaneous movement led by young Kashmiris angry at years of misrule.

Critics say the risk is that India's refusal to recognize the roots of the alienation may ignite a vicious cycle of violence and return Kashmir to the kind of upheaval seen during the 1990s.

It all bodes badly for a disputed region seen as key to wider long-term stability under South Asia's security arch of India, Pakistan and Afghanistan.

"This is the most serious challenge to central authority I have seen in 20 years," said Siddharth Varadarajan, strategic affairs editor of The Hindu newspaper. "And the government doesn't have much of a clue how to resolve it."

Muslim-majority Kashmir, which India and Pakistan both claim but rule in parts, has been racked by militancy since 1989 when an insurgency against Indian rule erupted. Around 47,000 people have died but militancy had fallen in the past few years.

The latest violence started with the death of a teenage student in early June. The region has been locked down for weeks, and protesters have defied curfews to attack police with stones and set security camps and police stations on fire.

The death toll in seven weeks has risen to at least 40, mostly demonstrators shot dead by police. Basic foods and fuel supplies are running short and families have been confined to their houses for days, with schools and businesses shut.

So polarised has it become that protesters seem more radical than their leaders. An appeal by Syed Ali Shah Geelani, a separatist hardliner, for peaceful protests went unheeded.

For many Kashmiris, the whole population appears to support the protests. Volunteers have established blood donation camps, pooled rice and vegetables in community kitchens and supplied food to patients in Srinagar hospitals.

"The protests seem to have taken a direction of their own, which we've never seen before," said well-known separatist leader Sajjad Gani Lone. "There is not a leader who could say stop the protests and they would stop it."

VACUUM IN LEADERSHIP

It did not have to be this way.

Only 18 months ago, hopes for peace in Kashmir grew after young Kashmiri leader Omar Abdullah, who is backed by the central government in New Delhi, won the state election on promises of ending injustice in the region and pushing economic development.

His election came only months after mass protests across the valley, then the biggest in two decades, sparked by a dispute over land for a Hindu shrine trust.

But those hopes were quickly dashed by Abdullah's own mistakes -- he was seen as detached from the problems of Kashmiris -- as well as alleged army abuses including the rape of young girls, and heavy handedness from India's government, such as the banning of pre-paid cellular phones and text messaging on security grounds.

"Omar has mishandled the situation but the real problem is that India's political leadership took their eyes off the ball," said political analyst Mahesh Rangarajan.

Home Minister P. Chidambaram says more than 1,000 security personnel were injured by protesters and that the government is open to a political settlement if demonstrators shun violence.

But over the last 18 months, New Delhi failed to move on any of Kashmir's contentious issues, including a widely hated law that gives special powers to the army such as holding suspects for up to two years without trial.

"It is all symbolic of the vacuum in Indian leadership," said political analyst Narasimhan Rao.

"This government is just moving from one controversy to another," he added, referring to government battles over high inflation to controversies over mismanagement in the build-up to the Commonwealth Games in New Delhi.

Indeed, the government appears to have little policy initiative to diffuse the crisis aside from just wearing down the protesters, perhaps hoping that the start of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan next week will help protests subside.

That same policy led the 2008 protests to tail off, a relief that proved only temporary.

"Kashmiris cannot offer the same degree of mobilisation forever," said Sheikh Showkat Hussain, a Kashmir university law teacher. "New Delhi interprets that as reconciliation by Kashmir. In reality, it is just a dormant volcano."

New Delhi does have a card up its sleeve. Despite the deaths and protesters, this is not the equivalent of China's Tibet.

While Kashmir was a diplomatic football in the 1990s, this time round the troubles have had little international resonance, with no criticism from the United Nations or the United States.

While Pakistan has made some diplomatic noise, there is little sign that the disturbances will impact on relations that are tentatively improving after the 2008 Mumbai attacks.

"Compared to a decade ago, no one is willing to annoy India," said Varadarajan. "It carries too much weight globally. In this region, the world 's eyes are on Afghanistan, not Kashmir."

(Additional reporting by Sheikh Mushtaq in Srinagar; Editing by Krittivas Mukherjee and Sanjeev Miglani)

ANALYSIS - India struggles to douse Kashmir's separatist fire | Reuters

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## ice_man

ice_man said:


> Firstly Uighurs is not a disputed territory or occupied territory! like kashmir is!
> 
> IF and i say again BIG IF this dad raping daughter kind of thing is happening in UIGHURS then WE condemn it be it any part of the world!! if the chinese are killing innocent people in UIGHURS ofcourse we condemn it we condemn any nation of involved in such atrocities! be it bosnia or Palestine or KASHMIR!!
> *
> but do the indians stop trade with israel for killing palestanians? do you stop DIPLOMATIC COURTSHIP WITH ISRAEL??? ofcourse not then if the rising shinning ohhhh all mighty india doesn't do it you can't expect us (according to indians) barbaric naive pakistanis to do it can you???*
> 
> 
> by the way do we discuss NAXAL PROBLEM IN INDIA??? NO REASON IS BECAUSE THAT IS INDIA'S INTERNAL PROBLEM



quoting myself for indians


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## whocares

hahaha, the thread kinda illustrates that its more than a few generations away.

i do think given the mistrust of pakistan, kashmiris would be wise to completely dissociate themselves from pakistan to have any chance of freedom.


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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> Kashmiri are not a phattu kaum, they are ready to give sacrifices for their freedom. That is an awesome trait to have in a nation.



I agree.. Thanks for the complements.. Really love that part of our nation...

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## Spring Onion

barcelona said:


> "Kashmiri women raped & killed stoke anger at Indian Forces" ................................................do you have any proof regarding this go follow the case & see post mortem report submitted wchich clearly says drowning ............................................i do want to know how a person becomes journalist in pakistan m very curiouse



The world knows about that altered report that too after a looooooooooongggggggggggg time 

So LAY OFF AND DONT PRESENT EXCUSES FOR *INDIAN TERRORISM IN KASKHIR *


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## billi

ice_man said:


> well colonel Parhoit killed pakistanis by bombing samjhota express so doesthat make him your indian army invovled in killing of pakistanis??? give us colonel parhoit then! he was directly involved in killing of our people!
> 
> do you have proof that kasab and boys were speaking to ISI??? you catch fishermen everyday but these boys got onto a boat rowed into india in 3 days got off and attacked you and you were clueless BUT you KNOW that they spoke to ISI agents!!
> 
> so solve kashmir automatically the freedom struggle will end! and no more call to arms from kashmiris!
> 
> pakistan is not the problem INDIAN self complex is! and as long as that remains indians can never move forward!! time for indians to stop making excuses!



I honestly think col purohit should be tried prosecuted and punished accordingly. And he never came to Pakistan. but that is only reactionary to islamic terror sent by pak. there are some hindu groups in india who have had enuf and now want to retaliate against you guys. for how long will the indians have to suffer Pak.
ALSO a very important point is, Col Purohit was uncovered by investigation done by Indian agencies. But Pak terror since it is state sponsored, never comes to light and in spite of all proofs by india.

See you guys still defend Kasab. This is terrible and disheartening. Also muslim terror is a menace the world over from NY, Lon, Glasgow to holland. and all of them come from pak.

What im saying is even if kashmir is solved you guys will still keep pouring terror into india . period. and of course all the terrorists in kashmir are not kashmiris but are punjabis afghan and i dont know what other breed.


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## Iggy

Asim Aquil said:


> Kashmiri are not a phattu kaum, they are ready to give sacrifices for their freedom. That is an awesome trait to have in a nation.



No they are not..they are j ust some puppets in the hand of some masters who tried to annex Kashmir from us in different ways..first tried covert war and it doest yeild them any result so now stone pelting..it will also end after they realise that i wont yeild results like previous attempts..till then dream on


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## Spring Onion

Raghu said:


> blah blah...
> 
> Sophian deaths were proved that they caused by drowning.
> *One of the women was found to be virgin.*
> 
> Even a rank liberal communist journalist like Harider Baweja did a sting op that showed captured separatists talking about the whole conspiracy to blame paramilitary for the incident.


*
If you have a good memory and an honest mind i hope you will recall when Indian Army soldiers raped the women of an entire Kashmiri village Kunaan Poshpara in Kupwara,.* But your dirty Indian government had not let even Human Rights org to present the report.


But i am sure millions of bhartis must not even heard the name of Kunaan Poshpara area of the Country of Kashmir


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Brotherhood said:


> Key word=*disputed and undisputed* area, hopefully you smart enough to understood the difference, soft spot? as i said you know nothing whats going on in China, who are the real victims in the so-called killing uighurs issue.
> Any Chinese will be piss by all those lies from the western media while the truth was hundred of hans Chinese were being killed instead.
> Now keep us out of this and i will leave your discussion alone.



*No the key word is human rights **...question is "are human rights different 
for ppl leaving in a disputed territory and ones living in sovereign territory" ..I think not!!*

But we also understand sometimes a state must do certain things to presevre the integrity of the state..*because no individual/s are bigger than the state itself.*

hence we try to explain to our Pakistani friends..that if one has to criticize human right violations ..then such criticism should be equal and *across the board for all such violations*..*not selective for ones that suits their agenda. *


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## Spring Onion

seiko said:


> No they are not..they are j ust some puppets in the hand of some masters who tried to annex Kashmir from us in different ways..first tried covert war and it doest yeild them any result so now stone pelting..it will also end after they realise that i wont yeild results like previous attempts..till then dream on



So in your view Millions of Kashmiris are puppets against those few Indian puppets aka omar abdullah and his hindu connections ???????


 seems Indians have lost the remaining sense as well


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## Spring Onion

WaghaBorder said:


> Hahahaha when did that happen. How come you have no links for this claim??
> 
> You know what Osama bin laden is boy friend to Shah Mehmood Querishi but your dirty govt did not let us investigate but we strongly believe that it is true.
> 
> :



Ahh i knew the bhartis did not know even about the areas of Kashmir which is occupied by bhrti terrorist army.



Here is the link and details of actions of your ****** army 
*
The Ugly Side of the Indian Army*
Labels: India, Kashmir, Rape


[Monday, January 19, 2009 | 2 comments ]
When we come across rape and molestation cases in newspapers, it so often gets ignored or overlooked because we take it as daily occurrence in our society.

Rarely do we spare few moments to think about the trauma or the despair the victim is going through.

Sometimes people involved in these acts of crime are the ones who are supposed to protect us and not destroy us. I am talking about the Indian Army who have committed such spineless deeds that can leave you disgusted.
*
Indian army troopers have been raping women and kids in Kashmir for a long time, they have used rape and molestation as a weapon to humiliate the locals during their cordon and search operations. Imagine a woman goes to the police station or military camps to inquire about her loved ones and she runs the risk of getting raped.

This ruthless crime has been happening for over a decade by the Indian Army, and most of these cases go unreported, or even if they are reported, the government puts it under the carpet.*


*On 26 Jun 2007 Major Joginder Singh and Naik Dalgit Singh of 57 Rashtriya Rifles tried to rape a 17-year old girl in Pati Kunan village in Bandipora District pretending to be 'militants'.



On 5 July 2007, an Indian Army soldier, Sepoy Ranjeet Singh, 24 Rashtriya Rifles tried to rape a 23-year old girl student in Kangan village of Ganderbal District.*

When the locals tried to rescue the girl, he at first opened fire at his pursuers, killing one and injuring two, before turning the gun on himself.


*Kunaan Poshpara in Kupwara, near the border, is known throughout Kashmir as the 'raped village' after the heinous incident where 30 women were raped in 1991 by soldiers. No marriages have taken place there since then, due to the social stigma even the victims are reluctant to come forward and talk about it. To make things worse, their families also desert them.

The accused have gone scot-free. There are reports that till date only two or three rape cases have been concluded so far. In the remaining cases, the investigations are still in process or terminated. Figures were hard to get because no one is bothered to document the number of cases, but according to one portal nearly 500 women were raped in various parts of Jammu and Kashmir between 1990-94.
*


According to Kashmir Media Service, 9,849 women have been gang-raped and molested from January 1989 to December 2008.

Its not only Kashmir where women are silent sufferers due to the Indian army's atrocities, but in North-east too women are raped and molested in the name of curbing terrorism. A striking example is of Thangiam Manorama, who was raped and murdered in Manipur by the soldiers of the paramilitary Assam Rifles in 2004.

That led to huge uproar in Manipur with elderly women stripped naked in protest and waved banners that said, 'Indian Army take our flesh', 'Indian Army Rape us'. Sadly, nothing has been done to punish these soldiers.

Its such a shame that people responsible for committing this crime are not only tarnishing the image of the country but also committing such spineless acts in the name of protecting the country.


http://www.fractalenlightenment.com/2009/0...ndian-army.html


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## GUNNER

*'India not listening to people of J&K'*

*Arati R Jerath & M Saleem Pandit* 

SRINAGAR: Hardline Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani, seen as the force behind the current agitation in Kashmir, said on Wednesday that peace would return to the state only after India withdrew its security forces and agreed to a plebiscite. 

If India agrees then we will get Pakistan to withdraw its security forces from Azad Kashmir, Gilgit and Baltistan. The referendum should be for every citizen of united Jammu and Kashmir. This is the basic demand of the people and has been for the last 62 years. We will accept whatever the majority decides, he said in an exclusive interview to TOI, his first after being released from detention. 

In an apparent reference to Sonia Gandhis recent talk of development as a panacea for the Kashmir problem, Geelani said their struggle was not a demand for flyovers and roads, or for jobs. We are fighting for the right to self-determination, he explained. India is not paying any heed to what the people of Jammu and Kashmir want. 

Geelani said that any referendum should be in line with the 1948 United Nations Security Council resolutions calling for the people of J & K to choose between India and Pakistan. He maintained there was no room for a third option of independence unless a tripartite dialogue between India, Pakistan and the genuine leadership of the people of J & K agrees to put it on the table for popular vote. 

Asked whether the India or Pakistan paradigm was still valid after 62 years, Geelani insisted it was. The time space doesnt matter. After all, you people fought against British rule for 100 years, he said. 

According to him, an independent state of J & K would never be accepted by either Pakistan or India or for that matter, even China and Russia, whose geographic proximity makes them players in the region. They know that J & K will become a colony of the United States, he said. Until all four countries, and Afghanistan, give guarantees to safeguard our boundaries, until we can arrange for our defence, I dont think independence is a realistic option. 

Geelani clearly sees himself as an interlocutor between India and Pakistan. While acknowledging that Pakistan at this juncture was caught up in troubles of its own, he said it was not a hindrance. Pakistan is committed to implementation of the UN resolutions. They will listen to us who have been fighting for the right to self-determination for 62 years. India is the problem, he said. 

He blamed security forces for the current spiral of violence in the state. Our people are unarmed. The guns are with the security forces. If the security forces allow people to hold demonstrations, there will be no violence, he said. He dismissed stone-pelting as a form of violence. Its a compulsion for our youth. We are not for violence, he emphasized. 

He blamed New Delhi for displaying arrogance of power and described J & K chief minister Omar Abdullah as a "puppet of Delhi." 

As for Masarat Alam, who has recently emerged as a powerful voice with the agitators, Geelani pointed out that Alams party, Muslim League, is a constituent of the Hurriyat Conference (Geelani). We are working together in every respect but we are not being allowed to move freely or hold shuras to discuss issues. Alams party joined hands with Geelani in 2003 when the original Hurriyat Conference split into two factions, a hardline one led by Geelani and a more moderate faction led by Mirwaiz Umar Farooq. 

"But our objectives are the same," Geelani maintained. "We all want freedom from Indian security forces and we want a referendum. Nothing less will do, no soft borders, no internal autonomy, not even Musharrafs four-point formula.


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## fawwaxs

*Latest deaths spark fresh protests in Kashmir *

SRINAGAR: Two more protesters died in clashes with security forces in Indian administered Kashmir, police said Thursday, dashing hopes of calm returning to the region roiled by weeks of anti-India protests.

Violent demonstrations erupted despite an appeal for restraint from influential politician Syed Ali Geelani.

&#8220;Demonstrations should be peaceful,&#8221; Geelani said on Wednesday. &#8220;Wherever you are stopped, sit down and tell them 'now you can fire at us', but don't indulge in violence.&#8221;

Police officials said security forces late Wednesday opened fire killing two people in Srinagar.

The shootings sparked further protests in Srinagar in defiance of curfew orders.


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## GreenStar

> We you alive during the human rights respect by UK meted out to the IRA?
> 
> 
> Nope was not alive when the UK goverement was as you said melting out the IRA. But the key difference is my friend at least we have solved the issue, the same can't be said about your self.
> 
> Queen pardoned IRA fugitive - Local & National, News - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk
> 
> IRA fugitives will be free to return home under amnesty scheme | UK news | The Guardian
> 
> Mountbatten's IRA killer freed under peace deal - News - The Independent
> 
> Do you see we have no problem with the IRA, because we realised that using force would not solve anything, so we used diplomacy. howver at least we did not rape or kill people by making them dissappear, as it is seen in India.
> 
> Mountbatten's IRA killer freed under peace deal - News - The Independent
> 
> You currently have the problem in your backyard, not the UK goverment......it takes a lot to handle when you find out that your goverement is a killing regime.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/mountbattens-ira-killer-freed-under-peace-deal-1170044.html


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## Guynextdoor

What does pakistan have in terms of reasons for existance? Nothing except a hatred for India. This whole Kashmir issue was never a question of muslims or self determination, it was a wierd fantasy concocted by your leaders to show that they are capable of wresting it from us and belive therefore that you are a 'great power'. EVery day you people fantasize about being a 'great power', but that requires effort, dedication lasting over generations...none of which your state or, equally importantly SOCIETY seems to be interested in putting in. The state is ultimately a reflection of it's people. Many Pakistni members whose posts I have read are generally filled with jealousy and envy...always waiting to give that 'failure' tag. Where there is no ambition, criticism is the easiest option. 

Over the last sixty years your country has been wrecked again and again through political and economic chaos. You people lost half your territory. You still don't know whether you are a democracy or a dictatorship. And still THE ONLY THING that will bring your country together even today is a hatred of India or the Issue of Kashmir....it won't be a collective effort to move forward on Pakistan. You didn't have problems working for decades to promote terrorism in Kashmir but have no such plans to work for decades for your own state. Many Pakistani's will kil themselves to get kashmir but not build their dams. 
And you think that despite these appalling credentials you 'deserve' kashmir. Why? So that you can put that territory too in as much of a mess as you are in right now. If there are people out there who think that we are dumb enough to yield symbolic victories to wayword groups of people, sorry, THE WORLD DON"T WORK THAT WAY.

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## Patriot

Guynextdoor said:


> What does pakistan have in terms of reasons for existance? Nothing except a hatred for India. This whole Kashmir issue was never a question of muslims or self determination, it was a wierd fantasy concocted by your leaders to show that they are capable of wresting it from us and belive therefore that you are a 'great power'. EVery day you people fantasize about being a 'great power', but that requires effort, dedication lasting over generations...none of which your state or, equally importantly SOCIETY seems to be interested in putting in. The state is ultimately a reflection of it's people. Many Pakistni members whose posts I have read are generally filled with jealousy and envy...always waiting to give that 'failure' tag. Where there is no ambition, criticism is the easiest option.
> 
> Over the last sixty years your country has been wrecked again and again through political and economic chaos. You people lost half your territory. You still don't know whether you are a democracy or a dictatorship. And still THE ONLY THING that will bring your country together even today is a hatred of India or the Issue of Kashmir....it won't be a collective effort to move forward on Pakistan. You didn't have problems working for decades to promote terrorism in Kashmir but have no such plans to work for decades for your own state. Many Pakistani's will kil themselves to get kashmir but not build their dams.
> And you think that despite these appalling credentials you 'deserve' kashmir. Why? So that you can put that territory too in as much of a mess as you are in right now. If there are people out there who think that we are dumb enough to yield symbolic victories to wayword groups of people, sorry, THE WORLD DON"T WORK THAT WAY.


You see when you start questing the existance of Pakistan then it's a totally different story - Every Leftist, Righwing, or Centrist will hate you if you do that.I know it's kinda shameful to live in such a large country which is kept hostage by a country 10 times smaller.I would too.

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## Guynextdoor

billi said:


> I honestly think col purohit should be tried prosecuted and punished accordingly. And he never came to Pakistan. but that is only reactionary to islamic terror sent by pak. there are some hindu groups in india who have had enuf and now want to retaliate against you guys. for how long will the indians have to suffer Pak.
> ALSO a very important point is, Col Purohit was uncovered by investigation done by Indian agencies. But Pak terror since it is state sponsored, never comes to light and in spite of all proofs by india.
> 
> See you guys still defend Kasab. This is terrible and disheartening. Also muslim terror is a menace the world over from NY, Lon, Glasgow to holland. and all of them come from pak.
> 
> What im saying is even if kashmir is solved you guys will still keep pouring terror into india . period. and of course all the terrorists in kashmir are not kashmiris but are punjabis afghan and i dont know what other breed.


What are you talking about? They're already in jail (the whole gang) and have been r*tting there for years (from samjhauta onwards). ANd they've slapped tough Anti Terror laws against him to prevent bail when the case is on.

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## billi

Patriot said:


> You see when you start questing the existance of Pakistan then it's a totally different story - Every Leftist, Righwing, or Centrist will hate you if you do that.I know it's kinda shameful to live in such a large country which is kept hostage by a country 10 times smaller.I would too.



So you agre that you are the aggressor and keeping us hostage and that we are a peace loving country and you are not!


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## Guynextdoor

Patriot said:


> You see when you start questing the existance of Pakistan then it's a totally different story - Every Leftist, Righwing, or Centrist will hate you if you do that.I know it's kinda shameful to live in such a large country which is kept hostage by a country 10 times smaller.I would too.


I think your post exemplifies my point. Couldn't have asked for a better example.


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## EjazR

*Asia Times Online :: Now it's the turn of 'children of the conflict' *

BANGALORE- Mass protests in the Kashmir Valley resumed with heightened fury over the weekend. In the past six days, more than 28 people have been killed in clashes between security forces and protesters, taking the death toll over the past eight weeks to 45.

Although the government has imposed a curfew and strict restrictions on movement in Jammu and Kashmir's summer capital, Srinagar, as well as most of the other towns and big villages across the valley, there has been no let-up in the protests. Thousands of men, women and children continue to pour into the streets, refusing to be intimidated by a heavy policepresence and security cordons.

Since 2008, India's northern-most state of Jammu and Kashmir has seen sporadic mass protests. In March, the extrajudicial killing of three men by the army in Kupwara district sparked public rage and unleashed a wave of unrest. The latest violence erupted on June 11, when a 17-year-old student on his way home from school was killed when a teargas shell fired by police ripped open his skull during a protest in Srinagar.

Kashmir is caught in a spiral of violence. Police shooting during demonstrations staged to protest against killings results in more deaths, triggering more protests and more violence. The protesters began with stone-pelting, but the violence has escalated. Last weekend, mobs were attacking not just the police but ambulances and doctors. They set fire to an explosives dump in Srinagar and railway stations in Sopore and Budgam.

A nine-year-old boy was included in Monday's list of fatalities, the youngest to be killed in the recent wave of protests. While police maintain he died in a stampede, locals insist he was beaten to death by the police. India's credibility is so low in the valley that nobody wants to believe Delhi's version of events.

There are striking parallels between the situation today and what happened in 1989-90, in the months before an armed militancy displaced the mass movement: the same defiance of authority, the anti-India sentiment, the pro-Pakistan and pro-azadi (freedom from India and Pakistan) slogans, the sea of protesters on the streets and the participation of women in these demonstrations.

"But the situation today is far more complex," says Ahmed Ali Fayyaz, a Srinagar-based Kashmiri journalist. He says the current lot of youth protesters - the bulk of whom are in the 12-20 year age group - is "more radicalized" than those who participated in the demonstrations two decades ago.

The impact of the Internet and YouTube is fueling anger like never before, Fayyaz says. Back in 1989-90, there was no Kashmiri media. Kashmiris watched Indian government-run television channels, which naturally put out the government view on issues and events. Newspapers published out of New Delhi provided the Indian mainstream perspective.

That has changed with pictures of violence from across the Valley - images of a father shielding his dead son's body and another of a teenager's skull split by a tear gas canister - easily spreading to computers and mobile phones.

Who are these young stone-pelting boys? The media have dubbed them the "children of the conflict". Most were born and brought up during the 1990s - the decade that saw the worst of the militancy in Kashmir. They have grown up amid guns, but for now they have chosen stones to express their anger with the Indian state.

The Indian government's position is that the protests are engineered by the separatists. A few weeks ago, Home Minister Palaniappan Chidambaram pointed an accusing finger at the Pakistan-based terrorist group, the Lashkar-e-Taiba. On Wednesday, he told parliament that the government "had reliable information that armed militants had mingled with the crowds and fired on the security forces".

Over the past several weeks, the separatist Hurriyat Conference, especially its most hardline and fundamentalist faction - the Hurriyat (Geelani) faction - has been stoking the violence. Led by 84-year-old Islamist patriarch Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Hurriyat (G) has been issuing a "protest calendar" every week for the past two months. These lay out the plans for the next seven days in which protesters will cripple Srinagar, but also when they will stay indoors and give the city's beleaguered residents time to stock up on provisions, or go to school and hospitals.

Since June, Geelani has been under arrest and in hospital. In his absence, his more radical deputy, the 47-year-old Masarat Alam, has been issuing the calendars. Alam and other hardliners have been justifying the stone-throwing. But Alam's hold over the protesters is also eroding, according to senior Kashmiri police.

Early this week, Jammu and Kashmir's chief minister Omar Abdullah said that the protests were "leaderless". The protesters are not listening to anyone, "not to the police or the civil administration, not to the separatists or even the Pakistan-based militants," observed the police officer.

"Kashmir is in a state of anarchy," said Kashmiri journalist Fayyaz.

The stone-pelting protesters may have been instigated by the separatists initially but they are not willing to follow their script anymore. "Last Sunday was an 'off-day' for protests but thousands were out on the streets," the police officer pointed out. The protests have hurtled out of the separatists' control.

Last week, when the Pakistan-based leader of the United Jihad Council and Hizbul Mujahideen chief, Syed Salahuddin, suggested to protesters that they adopt a more flexible approach, go slow on hartals (shutdowns) and allow people to buy food and let children study, effigies of him were burnt in Sopore, an Islamist stronghold and Hizbul Mujahideen bastion. Five masked men told a hurriedly called press conference in downtown Srinagar that Salahuddin's statement was a "betrayal of the nation".

"Who is he to tell us this? Sitting in *** [***************** Kashmir], eating chicken supplied by Pakistani agencies, how can he feel our pain, anger and helplessness?" said Abdul Bhat, a friend of the 17-year-old who was killed by a police teargas shell.

Salahuddin quickly retracted his statement and issued a clarification on July 25. Based in Pakistan-administered Kashmir for over 20 years, he is widely regarded in the valley as a mouthpiece for the country's Inter-Services Intelligence agency. The public snub of Salahuddin seems a message to Pakistan - keep your hands off the people's protest.

In 1989-90, many Kashmiris believed that independence was achievable. They believed Pakistan would help them achieve it. But within a few years, they realized that Islamabad wasn't arming their boys to let Kashmir become free, but to become a part of Pakistan. By the end of the decade, many Kashmiris were blaming Pakistan for their misery.

That growing anti-Pakistan sentiment provided space for India to resolve its conflict with the Kashmiri people. But it mistook the deadly calm in the valley for peace, measuring normalcy by the growing tourist arrivals. "The anti-India sentiment in the valley today is unambiguous," asserts Fayyaz.

Everyone seems to be running for cover from the stones and angry words of the "children of conflict" - including Indian and Kashmiri politicians from the ruling party and the opposition, moderate and hardline separatists, and even the militants. Not a single politician has stepped onto the streets to calm the angry mobs or visit hospitals to enquire about the injured.

On Wednesday, an appeal for a halt to the stone-pelting and the violence came from an unexpected quarter - Geelani. Those indulging in stone-pelting, burning offices, railway stations and vehicles "did not belong to the Kashmir movement" and were only causing harm to it, he said. "These violent acts are not helping our cause but inflicting damage to the movement. Our struggle against India should be peaceful." With the ground beneath his group's feet slipping away, Geelani is now struggling to regain his hold over protests he instigated and rage that he had stoked.

For India its strategy of "buying time", doing nothing to resolve the Kashmir conflict, is exploding in its face. Only this time, it will find it harder to extricate itself from the rubble.

"Dealing with the militancy seems easier," the police officer said, almost wistfully. "The militants were heavily armed. We shot them. How do we respond to these stone-pelting kids?"

_Sudha Ramachandran is an independent journalist/researcher based in Bangalore. _


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> We you alive during the human rights respect by UK meted out to the IRA?
> 
> 
> Nope was not alive when the UK goverement was as you said melting out the IRA. But the key difference is my friend at least we have solved the issue, the same can't be said about your self.
> 
> Queen pardoned IRA fugitive - Local & National, News - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk
> 
> IRA fugitives will be free to return home under amnesty scheme | UK news | The Guardian
> 
> Mountbatten's IRA killer freed under peace deal - News - The Independent
> 
> Do you see we have no problem with the IRA, because we realised that using force would not solve anything, so we used diplomacy. howver at least we did not rape or kill people by making them dissappear, as it is seen in India.
> 
> Mountbatten's IRA killer freed under peace deal - News - The Independent
> 
> You currently have the problem in your backyard, not the UK goverment......it takes a lot to handle when you find out that your goverement is a killing regime.
> 
> Mountbatten's IRA killer freed under peace deal - News - The Independent
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How long did your IRA problem last??
> Also since you are of Pakistani origin, there are a bunch of problems in Pakistan that are as old as Kashmir.. Still going on..
> 
> So chill.. This will get solved.. If not now, in a few years.. Do you see how no one (even in the Muslim world) now makes the noises they used to till a few years back on such incidents. Not even Pakistan state...
> 
> Try as hard as you can to sensationalize this.. wont work
Click to expand...


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## whocares

actually, i think pakistan is sufficiently disordered internally to not be trusted on anything.

a free kashmir would really be just a start for the public there. the dreams for 'union' with kashmir will take flight after that. attempts to bring puppet governments into power and what not. non state ak-47 and rocket launcher brigades complicating the scene further.

on balance, making kashmir independent won't be worth it either. chaos will still ensue.


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## karan.1970

Patriot said:


> You see when you start questing the existance of Pakistan then it's a totally different story - Every Leftist, Righwing, or Centrist will hate you if you do that.I know it's kinda shameful to live in such a large country which is kept hostage by a country 10 times smaller.I would too.



And how is India being kept a hostage by Pakistan.. Last I checked, Pakistan has more terror related deaths on a daily basis, worse economy, worse image in the world politics...So really dont understand the shame concept you are talkin of


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## ice_man

billi said:


> I honestly think col purohit should be tried prosecuted and punished accordingly. And he never came to Pakistan. but that is only reactionary to islamic terror sent by pak. there are some hindu groups in india who have had enuf and now want to retaliate against you guys. for how long will the indians have to suffer Pak.
> ALSO a very important point is, Col Purohit was uncovered by investigation done by Indian agencies. But Pak terror since it is state sponsored, never comes to light and in spite of all proofs by india.
> 
> See you guys still defend Kasab. This is terrible and disheartening. Also muslim terror is a menace the world over from NY, Lon, Glasgow to holland. and all of them come from pak.
> 
> What im saying is even if kashmir is solved you guys will still keep pouring terror into india . period. and of course all the terrorists in kashmir are not kashmiris but are punjabis afghan and i dont know what other breed.



 as for hindu terrorists please let's not start with BABRI MASJID or OPERATION BLUE STAR!! has jagdish tytler,advani,bal thackray or babu bajrangi been tried??? so stop this drama of hindus want to retaliate against us! 

as for parhoit in jail well hafeez saeed was also in jail!


AS FOR KASHMIR FIRST SOLVE KASHMIR and THEN BLAME PAKISTAN WILL "STILL EXPORT TERROR RANT" until you solve it don't ASSUME things which aren't there!!


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## GreenStar

> Were you alive when your nation went out to rape Iraq looking for WMDs?



Yes I was alive when the UK goverment went out to Iraq...and I was against it......however at least our goverment allowed protesters to voice there opinion.......shame the same can't be said about India.....what was 45 people dead...tsk.

And how have we raped Iraq...in actual fact we took out a dictator who was murdering Iraqi's in his 30 year rule. 

US recruiting Indian ex-soldiers for Iraq

oh look at this looks like the American's have hired ex Indian soilders, so does that make your army a rapist, as some of its soilders have gone into Iraq. 



> How do you sleep with the knowledge of so much death and destruction caused due to your choices?



How do you sleep knowing that you are killing your own people......at least my goveremnt is fighting for a good cause....giving countries a better life.

BBC NEWS | UK | UK combat operations end in Iraq

Your question in the British Army in killing....seem's to have no leg to stand on, as we have abandoned operations in Iraq. So what about Kashmir when have you got plans to stop killing Kashmiri's.


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## billi

ice_man said:


> as for hindu terrorists please let's not start with BABRI MASJID or OPERATION BLUE STAR!! has jagdish tytler,advani,bal thackray or babu bajrangi been tried??? so stop this drama of hindus want to retaliate against us!
> 
> as for parhoit in jail well hafeez saeed was also in jail!
> 
> 
> AS FOR KASHMIR FIRST SOLVE KASHMIR and THEN BLAME PAKISTAN WILL "STILL EXPORT TERROR RANT" until you solve it don't ASSUME things which aren't there!!



Foolish logic. none of you cases has anything to do with Pakistan. then i can also say, killing of ahmadis, forcible conversion of hindus, destroying temples in pak, trying to kill sri lankan cricketeers, planting a bomb in times sq , hitting a last ball sixer..im bored typing now
Purohit is in jail and cannot comeout to harm more Pakistanis and muslims.
Hafees enjoyed Biryani in jail and now is encouraging more pakistanis to kill unarmed indian civilians like cowards
What is the point in solving kashmir. hindi mein ek kahavat hai, 'kutte ka poonch kabhi seedhi nahin ban sakti'


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## GreenStar

> You have blood on your hands my friend so no need to lecture us. You could lecture the Americans though. They are the only ones who have "respected" human rights more than U.K.



Well first you need to get glasses.......Lol, this is a thread about Kashmir and as it resides in India......you are held responsible for all the human rights violations in Kashmir. 

Second there is no Americans in this thread for me to question them about there violation.....its as simple as that. 

BBC News - Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq

Well out least the Americans will leave Iraq soon and stop there mindless killing as you describe.....when will India do there's.


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## Dash

GreenStar said:


> Well first you need to get glasses.......Lol, this is a thread about Kashmir and as it resides in India......you are held responsible for all the human rights violations in Kashmir.
> 
> Second there is no Americans in this thread for me to question them about there violation.....its as simple as that.
> 
> BBC News - Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq
> 
> Well out least the Americans will leave Iraq soon and stop there *mindless killing *as you describe.....when will India do there's.



Its not mindless killing, but mindfull killing, kill the ones make trouble and every country on this plannt has done it.

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## Iggy

rohailmalhi said:


> Nah..........Indian are not going to accept tht wht there Army is doing in Occupied Kashmir is wrong and against human rights.



Do you ever accepted that the so called Mujahdeens doing in their is wrong and against human rights?



> They Kill innocent Kashmirs then label them as freedom fighter.



No they are terrorists and we brand them as terrorists..its called calling a spade a spade..we dont different versions like good taliban and bad taliban looking at the boundaries


> They rape the women and label them as virgins.


 
It was investgated by the CBI and later the doctor who done the postmortom himself clariffied that he write the report that the girls were raped due to some pressure..



> They fire bullets on unarmed crowd and thin they are very brave.



Tell me some thing isyour military military also deployed and use fire arms against the violent mob to make situation under control..and from the picture you guys provide..you really think it was peaceful and unarmed crowd?



> Keep living in the limited world which ur media presents to u .and keep killing Muslims in Kashmir but let me tell u one thing 1 day u will have to pay for all the acrocites ur army is doing in Kashmir.and i hope u people will suffer the same as Indian held Kashmirs are suffering now.



You mean like you suffering now in some parts in your country??You stop beliving what your media tells you...What about the Hindu kashmiries who were suffered by the hands of terrorists..to you they may be Kaffirs and scums,you dont need to know right??who is gonna pay for there sufferings??

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## EjazR

Well the valley is the place where the main problem is. You have Kargil Poonch Rajouri which are muslim majority districts but are very pro-Indian. Just looking at some details from the recent Chatahm house polls and 2001 census below.

Kupwara and Pulwama were not covered in the poll but you could probably assume the responses will be similar to Baramulla





As you can see Kargil, Rajouri Poonch are very firmly on the pro-Indian side and want to make LoC as a IB even though they have majority muslim populations. Now the valley people more than 80&#37; is most districts want independance not being part of Pakistan. Ofcourse 50% of the entire population of J&K state also lives in the valley as well, but there is the other 50% including muslims (so its not a religious divide) that are fine with being a part of India. Their biggest concerns are HR abuses by security forces which are quiet high.
Compare it too muslim majority areas of Jammu or evenKargil which is significantly less than their valley counterparts.

An idea of the districts can be seen from this map here





Even with the valley as independant or part of Pakistan, only the Jhelum river will be under their control. TheChenab and the Indus will still run to through pro-Indian areas. So it will not really solve the water "problem". Also let me remind that the Kashmiri valley people consider the IWT not in their favor so expect demands from the KAshmir valley for more control and access to their water which at present they do not get at an advantage to Pakistan.

Ofcourse in case of war, thevalley will be the battlefield. In other case, they will have to survive without the Jammu or Ladakh connections. A view of the physical profile with the valley circled in red is here





I think that addressing and punishing HR violations will go a long way in resolving this issue becausse most of these protests revolve around that. The points about demoralising the security forces are hollow when you have clearcut cases like the recent Machil fake encouter or the Pathribal incident in2000 where the CRPF officers were charge-sheeted by theCBI themselves and still havent been brought to book. In this way you are putting the lives and tarnishing the reputation of those upright security officers who don't eventhink of commiting HR violations.

On top of that a period of time with autonomy atleast for the valley alone-similar to what taiwan orHKhas in China should be given. A time bound period of 20-30 years and a review of wether to continue or revert to the same status as the rest of the state can then be decided in consultation with Pakistan.

The four point solution on J&K under Musharraf seems to be the only feasible solution outside bloodshed and violence and upholds the dignity of all people.

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## GUNNER

*Now it's the turn of 'children of the conflict' *

*By Sudha Ramachandran* 

*BANGALORE* - Mass protests in the Kashmir Valley resumed with heightened fury over the weekend. In the past six days, more than 28 people have been killed in clashes between security forces and protesters, taking the death toll over the past eight weeks to 45. 

Although the government has imposed a curfew and strict restrictions on movement in Jammu and Kashmir's summer capital, Srinagar, as well as most of the other towns and big villages across the valley, there has been no let-up in the protests. Thousands of men, women and children continue to pour into the streets, refusing to be intimidated by a heavy police presence and security cordons. 

Since 2008, India's northern-most state of Jammu and Kashmir has seen sporadic mass protests. In March, the extrajudicial killing of three men by the army in Kupwara district sparked public rage and unleashed a wave of unrest. The latest violence erupted on June 11, when a 17-year-old student on his way home from school was killed when a teargas shell fired by police ripped open his skull during a protest in Srinagar. 

Kashmir is caught in a spiral of violence. Police shooting during demonstrations staged to protest against killings results in more deaths, triggering more protests and more violence. The protesters began with stone-pelting, but the violence has escalated. Last weekend, mobs were attacking not just the police but ambulances and doctors. They set fire to an explosives dump in Srinagar and railway stations in Sopore and Budgam. 

A nine-year-old boy was included in Monday's list of fatalities, the youngest to be killed in the recent wave of protests. While police maintain he died in a stampede, locals insist he was beaten to death by the police. India's credibility is so low in the valley that nobody wants to believe Delhi's version of events. 

There are striking parallels between the situation today and what happened in 1989-90, in the months before an armed militancy displaced the mass movement: the same defiance of authority, the anti-India sentiment, the pro-Pakistan and pro-azadi (freedom from India and Pakistan) slogans, the sea of protesters on the streets and the participation of women in these demonstrations. 

"But the situation today is far more complex," says Ahmed Ali Fayyaz, a Srinagar-based Kashmiri journalist. He says the current lot of youth protesters - the bulk of whom are in the 12-20 year age group - is "more radicalized" than those who participated in the demonstrations two decades ago. 

The impact of the Internet and YouTube is fueling anger like never before, Fayyaz says. Back in 1989-90, there was no Kashmiri media. Kashmiris watched Indian government-run television channels, which naturally put out the government view on issues and events. Newspapers published out of New Delhi provided the Indian mainstream perspective. 

That has changed with pictures of violence from across the Valley - images of a father shielding his dead son's body and another of a teenager's skull split by a tear gas canister - easily spreading to computers and mobile phones. 

Who are these young stone-pelting boys? The media have dubbed them the "children of the conflict". Most were born and brought up during the 1990s - the decade that saw the worst of the militancy in Kashmir. They have grown up amid guns, but for now they have chosen stones to express their anger with the Indian state. 

The Indian government's position is that the protests are engineered by the separatists. A few weeks ago, Home Minister Palaniappan Chidambaram pointed an accusing finger at the Pakistan-based terrorist group, the Lashkar-e-Taiba. On Wednesday, he told parliament that the government "had reliable information that armed militants had mingled with the crowds and fired on the security forces". 

Over the past several weeks, the separatist Hurriyat Conference, especially its most hardline and fundamentalist faction - the Hurriyat (Geelani) faction - has been stoking the violence. Led by 84-year-old Islamist patriarch Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Hurriyat (G) has been issuing a "protest calendar" every week for the past two months. These lay out the plans for the next seven days in which protesters will cripple Srinagar, but also when they will stay indoors and give the city's beleaguered residents time to stock up on provisions, or go to school and hospitals. 

Since June, Geelani has been under arrest and in hospital. In his absence, his more radical deputy, the 47-year-old Masarat Alam, has been issuing the calendars. Alam and other hardliners have been justifying the stone-throwing. But Alam's hold over the protesters is also eroding, according to senior Kashmiri police. 

Early this week, Jammu and Kashmir's chief minister Omar Abdullah said that the protests were "leaderless". The protesters are not listening to anyone, "not to the police or the civil administration, not to the separatists or even the Pakistan-based militants," observed the police officer. 

"Kashmir is in a state of anarchy," said Kashmiri journalist Fayyaz. 

The stone-pelting protesters may have been instigated by the separatists initially but they are not willing to follow their script anymore. "Last Sunday was an 'off-day' for protests but thousands were out on the streets," the police officer pointed out. The protests have hurtled out of the separatists' control. 

Last week, when the Pakistan-based leader of the United Jihad Council and Hizbul Mujahideen chief, Syed Salahuddin, suggested to protesters that they adopt a more flexible approach, go slow on hartals (shutdowns) and allow people to buy food and let children study, effigies of him were burnt in Sopore, an Islamist stronghold and Hizbul Mujahideen bastion. Five masked men told a hurriedly called press conference in downtown Srinagar that Salahuddin's statement was a "betrayal of the nation". 

"Who is he to tell us this? Sitting in *** [***************** Kashmir], eating chicken supplied by Pakistani agencies, how can he feel our pain, anger and helplessness?" said Abdul Bhat, a friend of the 17-year-old who was killed by a police teargas shell. 

Salahuddin quickly retracted his statement and issued a clarification on July 25. Based in Pakistan-administered Kashmir for over 20 years, he is widely regarded in the valley as a mouthpiece for the country's Inter-Services Intelligence agency. The public snub of Salahuddin seems a message to Pakistan - keep your hands off the people's protest. 

In 1989-90, many Kashmiris believed that independence was achievable. They believed Pakistan would help them achieve it. But within a few years, they realized that Islamabad wasn't arming their boys to let Kashmir become free, but to become a part of Pakistan. By the end of the decade, many Kashmiris were blaming Pakistan for their misery. 

That growing anti-Pakistan sentiment provided space for India to resolve its conflict with the Kashmiri people. But it mistook the deadly calm in the valley for peace, measuring normalcy by the growing tourist arrivals. "The anti-India sentiment in the valley today is unambiguous," asserts Fayyaz. 

Everyone seems to be running for cover from the stones and angry words of the "children of conflict" - including Indian and Kashmiri politicians from the ruling party and the opposition, moderate and hardline separatists, and even the militants. Not a single politician has stepped onto the streets to calm the angry mobs or visit hospitals to enquire about the injured. 

On Wednesday, an appeal for a halt to the stone-pelting and the violence came from an unexpected quarter - Geelani. Those indulging in stone-pelting, burning offices, railway stations and vehicles "did not belong to the Kashmir movement" and were only causing harm to it, he said. "These violent acts are not helping our cause but inflicting damage to the movement. Our struggle against India should be peaceful." With the ground beneath his group's feet slipping away, Geelani is now struggling to regain his hold over protests he instigated and rage that he had stoked. 

For India its strategy of "buying time", doing nothing to resolve the Kashmir conflict, is exploding in its face. Only this time, it will find it harder to extricate itself from the rubble. 

"Dealing with the militancy seems easier," the police officer said, almost wistfully. "The militants were heavily armed. We shot them. How do we respond to these stone-pelting kids?" 

*Sudha Ramachandran is an independent journalist/researcher based in Bangalore.*


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## billi

EjazR said:


> Well the valley is the place where the main problem is. You have Kargil Poonch Rajouri which are muslim majority districts but are very pro-Indian. Just looking at some details from the recent Chatahm house polls and 2001 census below.
> 
> Kupwara and Baramulla were not convered in the poll but you could probably assume the responses will be similar to Baramulla
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see Kargil, Rajouri Poonch are very firmly on the pro-Indian side and want to make LoC as a IB even though they have majority muslim populations. Now the valley people more than 80% is most districts want independance not being part of Pakistan. Ofcourse 50% of the entire population of J&K state also lives in the valley as well, but there is the other 50% including muslims (so its not a religious divide) that are fine with being a part of India. Their biggest concerns are HR abuses by security forces which are quiet high.
> Compare it too muslim majority areas of Jammu or evenKargil which is significantly less than their valley counterparts.
> 
> An idea of the districts can be seen from thsi map here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even with the valley as independant or part of Pakistan, only the Jhelum river will be under their control. TheChenab and the Indus will still run to through pro-Indian areas. So it will not really solve the water "problem". Also let me remind that the Kashmiri valley people consider the IWT not in their favor so expect demands from the KAshmir valley for more control and access to their water which at present they do not get at an advantage to Pakistan.
> 
> Ofcourse in case of war, thevalley will be the battlefield. In other case, they will have to survive without the Jammu or Ladakh connections. A view of the physical profile with the valley circled in red is here



haha.. that will be funny.. if kashmir gets independence and they turn of the water tap to Pak. LOL!!!
Yeah I am also aware that Kashmiris think IWT favors Pak. So Pak will wonder they were better off with honest india


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## Hulk

The problem of kashmir is that some of these people pelting stones are religious bigots. This all started when Hindus were given land for worship and these bigots could not digest it. There were means available in system but they resorted to violence, look at physche of these people. They resort to violence for things that can be sorted by talks. They do not care when others die or when they looted their because they were Hindus. So these people are not so innocent and some of these deaths the blame lies with Parents who allowed their kids to take part in violent protest.

The Kashmiri's need to learn to live in mutli religious society.

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## GreenStar

> How long did your IRA problem last??



It probably lasted for 80 years, as some say that it was formed in 1917 or 1920.

however don't get my country involved when the thread is about India...stick to the topic, you should no better as your a senior member. India is doing the Killing not the UK goverement in Kashmir......as I said before the IRA problem is solved.


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## GreenStar

> Also since you are of Pakistani origin, there are a bunch of problems in Pakistan that are as old as Kashmir.. Still going on..



And what's that got to do with it....seriously this really pisses me off just because you can't handle the fact that your goveremnt is a killing regime, and other people have different view....you go all personal. 

How do you know I'm of Pakistani origin, stop persuming that you know me....in which you can say something like that. I don't care what Pakistan does......because this thread is not about Pakistan......do you think you can digest this information or do you want me to simplfy it for you.


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## GreenStar

> The Karmiri's need to learn to live in mutli religious society.



That just shows from your own sentence that Kashmir don't like Indian rule...so shouldn't they get independence.......as you claim to be democratic.make sense to me.


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## GreenStar

> So chill.. This will get solved.. If not now, in a few years.. Do you see how no one (even in the Muslim world) now makes the noises they used to till a few years back on such incidents. Not even Pakistan state...



When will this issue get resolved...have you got any clear cut plan. Furthermore who cares if no one in the Middle East does not make a Racket of the Kashmiri isssue.......that does not give you the right to kill people just because they are voicing there displeasure of your goveremnt.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> It probably lasted for 80 years, as some say that it was formed in 1917 or 1920.
> 
> however don't get my country involved when the thread is about India...stick to the topic, you should no better as your a senior member. India is doing the Killing not the UK goverement in Kashmir......as I said before the IRA problem is solved.



And so will Kashmir problem be. I am not dragging your country into anything, just taking an example to show that these problems take years to settle down. Though your country of Origin has a lot to do with Kashmir..

India is handling the law breakers as they should. You throw a stone at security forces, expect a bullet in return. Not just in Kashmir, but in any part of the country. If anything, Kashmir does get handled with kid gloves. You can sensationalize it to your heart's content, but thats all it will do.. provide contentment to your heart..

India is not accountable to any foreigner of whatever country on its internal matters. Your national leadership knows that. May be you should follow their lead..

Now I know that you dont consider this as INdia's internal matter, but till your country of origin develops the might (doubtful) or strong enough global diplomatic relations(even more doubtful) to force India on this, you gotta live with India's stand...


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## ice_man

MODs please close this thread too much useless posts recently from both sides!!!! seems like pakistanis and indians are still in kindergarten


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## ice_man

billi said:


> Foolish logic. none of you cases has anything to do with Pakistan. then i can also say, killing of ahmadis, forcible conversion of hindus, destroying temples in pak, trying to kill sri lankan cricketeers, planting a bomb in times sq , hitting a last ball sixer..im bored typing now
> Purohit is in jail and cannot comeout to harm more Pakistanis and muslims.
> Hafees enjoyed Biryani in jail and now is encouraging more pakistanis to kill unarmed indian civilians like cowards
> What is the point in solving kashmir. hindi mein ek kahavat hai, 'kutte ka poonch kabhi seedhi nahin ban sakti'



 keep posting like this and i am sure PDF will ban you and you can go back feeling all SUNNY DEOL on BR!!!  your post makes no sense! 


 tum naay kahawat ki tou maa behan kaar di lekin masla nahi i will also give you an URDU SAYING:

NAACH NAA JANAAY ANGAAN TAIRAA!

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## GreenStar

> India is handling the law breakers as they should. You throw a stone at security forces, expect a bullet in return



Not really....India is an economical powerhouse.....are you telling me you can't afford a water gun.......your nation is spending billions in defence yet you can't buy a water gun tank to stop these rioters.


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## Dash

I think we will always be in a state of proxy war, and will never give up on this.
Indians will not give up on this issue, period.


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## GreenStar

> And so will Kashmir problem be.



And what has your goverment done so far, to solve the problem.....was killing that 9 year old in the plan.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> And what's that got to do with it....seriously this really pisses me off just because you can't handle the fact that your goveremnt is a killing regime, and other people have different view....you go all personal.
> 
> How do you know I'm of Pakistani origin, stop persuming that you know me....in which you can say something like that. I don't care what Pakistan does......because this thread is not about Pakistan......do you think you can digest this information or do you want me to simplfy it for you.



Dude.. Learn to take an example in context. I bring up your country of Origin since an example on how such things take time to solve from a familiar environment generally resonates better. I dont understand how that makes me attacking you personally.?? If you do get into a debate and a countering example pisses you off, then I am sorry, but I dont care...

On how I know that you are of a Pakistani origin.. Well I came across this post a few days back and assumed you were not lying.. 



GreenStar said:


> Ramu why should I chage my flag............what are you the Headmaster. For your information I am proud to be a Pakistani, but also proud to be English because I was born here.



And frankly, I dont care about what you care for or not...

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## whocares

ice_man said:


> keep posting like this and i am sure PDF will ban you and you can go back feeling all SUNNY DEOL on BR!!!  your post makes no sense!
> 
> 
> tum naay kahawat ki tou maa behan kaar di lekin masla nahi i will also give you an URDU SAYING:
> 
> NAACH NAA JANAAY ANGAAN TAIRAA!



kahaawat ki maa behan

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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> That just shows from your own sentence that Kashmir don't like Indian rule...so shouldn't they get independence.......as you claim to be democratic.make sense to me.



Democracy entitles the whole country to jointly chose their representatives. It does not allow for a part of the country to decide to seperate..


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## Spring Onion

seiko said:


> Madam i am from a state where people got recruited in the name of religion and got gunned down by securities in Kashmir..so dont bullshit me about who is puppet and who is not..the whole world knows who is using religion as a state agenda to export terrorism and chaos..
> 
> May be its time for you to come back in to your senses



It is very sad to know that you in a bid to justify the terrorism of Indian army in Kashmir, even had succumbed to the false propaganda by Indians that Indians from Kerala were fighting along side freedom fighters against Indian troops.


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## GreenStar

> India is not accountable to any foreigner of whatever country on its internal matters. Your national leadership knows that. May be you should follow their lead..



the same can be said for Pakistan you can't question it on its own internal matter on who it should arrest...like that guy hafiz i think. David Cameron is the prime minister yet i don't have to agree with him as i don't follow his views. the election is a prime example where he only achieved like 36&#37; of the votes.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> When will this issue get resolved...have you got any clear cut plan. Furthermore who cares if no one in the Middle East does not make a Racket of the Kashmiri isssue.......that does not give you the right to kill people just because they are voicing there displeasure of your goveremnt.



You want to be entitled to an answer to this.. Well, get elected to an Indian constitutional body and demand an answer in the Parliament or a state legislative. Alternately, take the statements of GOI on face value..

No one in the world is making that racket because every one in the world sees this so called humanitarian sham for what it is..

About the right to kill people.. Well, these folks have no right to indulge in mass scale arson. As I said before, throw a stone at security forces, expect a bullet in return..


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> Not really....India is an economical powerhouse.....are you telling me you can't afford a water gun.......your nation is spending billions in defence yet you can't buy a water gun tank to stop these rioters.



You are right here.. India should invest more in non lethal equipment. Also a lot of deaths have been through hits from Rubber bullets and tear gas shells. Surely an area of improvement, but it doesnt entitle the rioters to expect a non lethal response..


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## GreenStar

> On how I know that you are of a Pakistani origin.. Well I came across this post a few days back and assumed you were not lying..



I am from Pakistani origin, but that does not mean that i'm biase towards Pakistan, as i have said Pakistan is wrong too, but India is more since people are dieing under your control.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> And what has your goverment done so far, to solve the problem.....was killing that 9 year old in the plan.



It wasnt.. Just like it wasnt in the plans of these stone pelters to stone a 2 month old child to death. 

I have already answered to your demand on the specifics of what the govt has done..


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## GreenStar

> You want to be entitled to an answer to this.. Well, get elected to an Indian constitutional body and demand an answer in the Parliament or a state legislative. Alternately, take the statements of GOI on face value..



Lol you said your self that the issue would be resolved in a couple of years.....so I take it that the Indian goverment has no clear cut plan.


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## GreenStar

> It wasnt.. Just like it wasnt in the plans of these stone pelters to stone a 2 month old child to death.



But those are stupid protestors.....so are you telling me you using the same tactics as the rioters to get your rule of law......that does not speak well of your goverment, who are stooping to there level.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> the same can be said for Pakistan you can't question it on its own internal matter on who it should arrest...like that guy hafiz i think. David Cameron is the prime minister yet i don't have to agree with him as i don't follow his views. the election is a prime example where he only achieved like 36% of the votes.



Lots of difference between individuals demanding answers from a foreign country vs diplomatic engagement between the govts of 2 countries. If I follow your logic, Pakistan has no business complaining about what we do with rivers in our area..


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> I am from Pakistani origin, but that does not mean that i'm biase towards Pakistan, as i have said Pakistan is wrong too, but India is more since people are dieing under your control.



And I never said you are biased.. I simply took an example from Pakistan and refered to it as a country of your origin...


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## FlickerSingh

nice to see indian women protesting against any form of injustice which they feel. I am proud of them. if they protest peacefully then cpr has no reasons to attack them. if they get out of line they get whipping. that is the beauty of hindustan. we allow all our people to protest peacefully unlike certain of our neighbours who wouldnt hesitate to burn a temple or so if certain of their minorities protest against injustice such as drinking water from outside a mosque or maybe our other neighbour who send some of their minority protestors to re-education camps or maybe to some detention cell for a few years to think about what they are doing. thank heavens we have a secular state called india and we did not give in to fanatical demands that our nation be divided into muslim, christian , buddhist, hindu, sikh etc states. now protest that.


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## ejaz007

Just came across this link thought should share:


Police Fire on Kashmir Protest - Watch Online Videos Free - Muft Tv

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## Awesome

ice_man said:


> MODs please close this thread too much useless posts recently from both sides!!!! seems like pakistanis and indians are still in kindergarten


Indians have built up a trend, if there is a thread they don't like they will start posting offtopic rants and will talk about the sun and the moon but not the topic.

We will ban anyone found guilty of thread hijacking.

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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

karan.1970 said:


> As I said before, throw a stone at security forces, expect a bullet in return..



True face of India being exposed.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> Lol you said your self that the issue would be resolved in a couple of years.....so I take it that the Indian goverment has no clear cut plan.



When did I say that.. Never said 2 years... 

And what part of my statement made you think that there is no clear cut plan.

The way I look at it, from being internationally pressured on the Kashmir issue by most countries and many times more civilian and sec forces deaths every year to the situation now is a huge movement which is not possible without a plan. Have a look at the numbers below







Its the ongoing success of that plan only that 40 civilian deaths in a month is creating such an uproar within India also. If you go back 10 years, there were double the number of civilian casualties every month of the year...


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## ejaz007




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## GreenStar

Karan maybe I need glasses but the video posted by ejaz show that you govement is using bullets to kill civilians.......I though you said you use rubber bullets......it kinda goes agianst your argument.


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## Dash

GreenStar said:


> I am from Pakistani origin, but that does not mean that i'm biase towards Pakistan, as i have said Pakistan is wrong too, but India is more since people are dieing under your control.


you should first know who is dying where, there are several other places that need your sympathy and criticism too and yu need to say it loud and clear.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> But those are stupid protestors.....so are you telling me you using the same tactics as the rioters to get your rule of law......that does not speak well of your goverment, who are stooping to there level.



Accidents dont depend on the tactics. They happen. Thats why folks who are encouraging this are as responsible if not more than the SF personnel who fired those bullets. Even US (most technologically evolved) and Pakistan has had similar casualties in the WOT in the NWFP and Afghanistan.

There is a word for it.. Collateral Damage... Unfortunate, but unavoidable..


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## karan.1970

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> True face of India being exposed.



Nothing hidden on this.. Try doing that in the country you live in.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> Karan maybe I need glasses but the video posted by ejaz show that you govement is using bullets to kill civilians.......I though you said you use rubber bullets......it kinda goes agianst your argument.



Different levels of escalation at different points..And as I said, rioters are not ENTITLED to rubber bullets once shoot at sight orders are given and publicised..


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## Spring Onion

Thank you mods/admins for tweeting the thread. I dont see any justification for posting Chinese or BD situation for justifying Indian army terrorism in Indian Occupied Kashmir. 

*Back to the topic. *


keeping in view the growing number of protesters coming on roads pelting stones it seems that they are supporting Civilian protests which is a good omen for the cause of Kashmir.


Good luck to the Kashmiris. Inshallah they are going to succeed in defending their Country Jammu and Kashmir


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## Hulk

Look at these women doing stone pelting. This shows how violent these people are, while she is protesting aginst violence at he same time she herself is violent. I mean hypocrisy at best, when we kill thats ok but when ours get killed accidently that is injustic. Basically these people are devoid of logic and born violent. Madam wanted to check with you where were you when militants was killing the Hindus in valley, so justic is only for Muslims?


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

karan.1970 said:


> Nothing hidden on this.. Try doing that in the country you live in.



I have no reason to throw stones on the Canadians. They are not holding my people hostage. I do hope though that these stones start finding a lot more skulls. How can someone sitting in their living room justify a bullet for some protestor. We don't kill protestors in Canada, we are not a backwards 3rd world country rife with problems.


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## Hulk

Jana said:


> Thank you mods/admins for tweeting the thread. I dont see any justification for posting Chinese or BD situation for justifying Indian army terrorism in Indian Occupied Kashmir.
> 
> *Back to the topic. *
> 
> 
> keeping in view the growing number of protesters coming on roads pelting stones it seems that they are supporting Civilian protests *which is a good omen for the cause of Kashmir.*
> 
> 
> Good luck to the Kashmiris. Inshallah they are going to succeed in defending their Country Jammu and Kashmir



Yes people getting killed is good omen for you, take a leaf out of palestine, violence got them nothing nor it will get anything. Also remeber India is way to powerful for these protest to get anything out of it. The end result will be they will lose few more of theirs, some good men in uniform will also lose their life.


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## karan.1970

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> I have no reason to throw stones on the Canadians. They are not holding my people hostage. I do hope though that these stones start finding a lot more skulls.



If wishes were horses..


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## Awesome

indianrabbit said:


> Look at these women doing stone pelting. This shows how violent these people are, while she is protesting aginst violence at he same time she herself is violent. I mean hypocrisy at best, when we kill thats ok but when ours get killed accidently that is injustic. Basically these people are devoid of logic and born violent. Madam wanted to check with you where were you when militants was killing the Hindus in valley, so justic is only for Muslims?


They are killing vile, brutal invaders, who have been PROVEN to have done fake encounters in Kashmir to earn medals over the dead bodies of Kashmiris.

Either they kill Indian soldiers now, or tomorrow another loser will stand up and claim a medal by killing a Kashmiri on the street.

There will be no need to kill Indian soldiers if they left Kashmir.


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## Jade

Asim Aquil said:


> But when Kashmiris choose they are still going to choose Pakistan over India.
> 
> Moreover, we are also okay with the Kashmiris choosing Independence to form a united Kashmir. As long as they choose on their own, what India gives them is not justice, its imposition of its will.



The UN resolutions are simply irrelevant. Never is any referendum going to be held...ever. The ongoing agitation is internal matter of Indiait is between the people and its government. This has been made clear by the international communityno major country had commented on the situation.

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## karan.1970

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> How can someone sitting in their living room justify a bullet for some protestor. We don't kill protestors in Canada, we are not a backwards 3rd world country rife with problems.



Watch me do that.. Am in my study though.. not in the living room..

Try throwing rocks in a protest in Canada and see yourself getting shot before you pick the second stone. 

If you call India a backward 3rd world country, wonder what you call your own..?? I have a few words in my mind, but the world leaders across the world are doing a pretty good job of voicing those so I will not go there and derail this discussion...

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## Iggy

Asim Aquil said:


> They are killing vile, brutal invaders, who have been PROVEN to have done fake encounters in Kashmir to earn medals over the dead bodies of Kashmiris.
> 
> Either they kill Indian soldiers now, or tomorrow another loser will stand up and claim a medal by killing a Kashmiri on the street.
> 
> There will be no need to kill Indian soldiers if they left Kashmir.



No medal was given for killing a Kashmiri..yes was given to persons who killed terrorists and we will continue to give them..Fake enounters are not prooven by any International body but Indian authorities itself..so credit goes to India again..It shows that even a single injustice will not be allowed against Kashmiries..

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## Awesome

Tehelka - India's Independent Weekly News Magazine

A man. A mess. A map. Omar Abdullah plots a way out for Kashmir

BY VIJAY SIMHA



Reaching out
Omar Abdullah interacts with residents of Kangan, 40 km from Srinagar
HALF A glance, and Omar Abdullah knows what he needs to fix. He is on the banks of the Sindhu, 40 km from Srinagar, about to begin a mass contact campaign. Theres no way a stone hurled by a human can reach him here from Srinagar. A stone from God, maybe. For the moment, God does nothing like that. But Omar still doesnt like what he sees. There are 300 people waiting for him under a canvas tent. They are barricaded by a concertina wire. Omars sofa is on a dais 30 feet from the nearest listener. It creates an us and them scene. This is terrible; its the very heart of the matter in Kashmir. Instantly, Omar knows he has to do something. The wire is dragged away and Omars sofa is brought closer to the crowd. When he settles down, Omar is six feet away. He has sort of closed the gap. Theres a murmur of approval from the gathering.

This is the start of Omars tehsil contact programme across Kashmir, part of his response to the unrest in the state. Theres a sun beating down. Omar is in a light blue half-sleeve checked shirt, cream-coloured trousers and moccasins. He has sunglasses on. His fingers are pink and manicured and theres more salt than pepper in his hair. He is here to lay the foundation stone for a bridge. Watching him are mostly older men with craggy skin. They are in cheap and billowy robes, described as pathan suits. They have cotton waistcoats and turbans. Their fingers are coarse and their hair is grey. Omar and his people inhabit different worlds.

Patiently Omar listens. A dozen men speak, some of them drone on. There are merchants, contractors, political workers, and the unemployed. They have a host of requests and it takes concentration to keep track. The sun is high and Omar sits unflinching. It is, oddly, hotter than Delhi. Its a rare sight of a chief minister in India sitting in the sun while the people are sheltered from the heat under a tent. It must count for something. Finally, 90 minutes later, it is Omars turn. He speaks in Hindi, though he can do Kashmiri as well. Often, conversations between us become oneway. This leads to a break in flow and the path between us is damaged. We need to mend it. The larger issue of Jammu and Kashmir is not in our hands. It is between New Delhi and Islamabad and we can only seek Allahs blessings for both sides, he says.

We dont know what Allah has planned for us. Each time we come close to a solution to the Kashmir issue, something happens that pulls us back. Today, we have reached a point where the foreign ministers of the two countries hurl accusations at each other in press conferences. I pray that Allah gives the leaders courage to get us together, not take us apart. Like every ordinary Kashmiri, I dream of going to Pakistan. Just to see how things there are. To buy something there. See whats different there from here.


At the crossroads
A family is out on a deserted street during a shutdown in downtown Srinagar
Its only the first stage of a longdrawn campaign for Omar, but he launches into the heat of the Kashmir problem. He lays out what he thinks its all about. The 300 men have gone silent. They listen. We will not solve the Kashmir problem by having strikes after strikes. We will become a state of the illiterate. Our children cannot compete. We are headed for ruin. We are about to hand over to our children a Jammu and Kashmir of the unemployed and the useless. We will be fit only to beg. Is that what we want? Sonia Gandhi and Manmohan Singh give us money. We are not ungrateful. Thank you for your help. But its a lie if they say money will solve the issue. Jammu and Kashmir is not a Naxal problem, which you can solve by giving land. It is a political issue that started in 1953, with the arrest of Sheikh Abdullah. My legacy is here. My inventory will be taken here, not in Delhi. Those who have seen Omar say this is about the best shot he gives it in public. He is not a man of words, and he has spoken a bit.

It is hotter than Delhi and Omar sits unflinching. Its a rare sight of a chief minister sitting in the sun while the people are sheltered from the heat
ON THE streets, though, no one is listening to Omar. Especially in Srinagar, the hub of the resistance movement, they couldnt care less for Omar, or any other mainstream politician. Rambagh is a busy spot in Srinagar. Its been raining stones and tear gas shells here for a couple of weeks. A typical day begins almost in silence. The shutters stay down. The women stay indoors. Slowly, the young gather. By midday, there is fury and yelling. A crowd of about 500 has collected on a Friday afternoon. These are the stonepelters. Omars administration has just banned a local television channel for what it calls inflammatory content, and the youngsters are livid. They see a conspiracy to keep them off the news. They have heard that two people died in firing that day. They want to lynch.

A skinny lad is one of the more active ones in the Rambagh crowd. He says his name is Ashraf, but it doesnt matter. He could be anyone. He could be everyone. He says he is a Class 12 student. His voice has gone hoarse from the shouting. They (the security forces) dont allow us to attend school. They stop me from buying milk. This morning they shot a man who was walking home with milk sachets in his hand. We will not allow them to rule. They must go back. We want azaadi (freedom). Ashraf hurtles from thought to thought, often incoherent. Its a string of minor slights that have gained energy from an older and bigger hurt. Around us is frenzy. The stone-pelters have morphed into a rally and are heading dangerously towards a posse of constables half a kilometre away. There are youngsters all around, out of control. They have wet masks around their faces and theres no saying what they will do next. Suddenly, they start to run. They hurl abuses and stones. One, two, twenty, forty. In a jiffy there are missiles raining over the policemen.

The constables radiate anything but menace. They stand limp and mostly have to be goaded into a response. Their uniforms are well worn; they have cane shields and lathis. Some have helmets. Some have a paunch. This is not a killing machine. This is a confused group of people, whose skills at work have waned and whose emotions have been torn apart by the suspicion they generate among their people. They start to evade the stones and take shelter. This encourages the stone-pelters and they rush forward. Some of them are so young that their parents ought to be somewhere around. The stone-pelters look menacing now, the khaki looking vulnerable.

The policemen radio for assistance. Within a minute, a convoy of armoured jeeps rushes past at high speed, sirens blaring, into the crowd of stone-pelters. Some tear gas shells have also been brought. The constables start to fire the tear gas shells. Theres smoke in the eyes and lungs. There is brick and stone on the roads. The stone-pelters back off into the myriad lanes and bylanes. The constables take position. Now, the policemen begin to hurl stones. And so it settles, into an uncomfortable rhythm that will last into the evening. This is life in Kashmir. At some places, bullets could be fired and there might be deaths. The constables at Rambagh, however, have poor aim. Most of their stones crash into the windowpanes of nearby houses. One goes into a mosque.

For both the constables and the stone-pelters, Omar is a distant figure. He was billed as the young hope of Kashmir barely 18 months ago, but today they are not sure. Omar, too, appears unsure as we fly with him in his helicopter to his second mass contact meeting. He has a senior adviser to him in the helicopter. As soon as we take off, though, Omar withdraws into his iPad. He is listening to music, Lionel Ritchie he says, and reading at the same time. This one is Courage and Consequence: My Life as a Conservative in the Fight, by Karl Rove. Every few moments, we draw him into a conversation and soon after a couple of thoughts are exchanged, Omar is back to his iPad. He says he rents movies and buys books online. Hes just finished Stieg Larssons Millennium Trilogy. Ive even seen the movie, in Swedish with English subtitles, he says. He has barely spoken a few words with his adviser, though all of them precise and relevant.

Kashmiris have a need to be hugged. They like to show affection physically. Omar has a problem hugging. This is disaster in an emotion-driven state

Tough postures
Opposition politicians, led by PDPs Mehbooba Mu&#62979;i, at a protest rally


No childs play 
A Kashmiri youth hurls stones at the police during another slanging match

Its easy to see that Omars thrill with gizmos is back. Early on in his life as chief minister, he was elected in January 2009, his fascination for his BlackBerry led to a few tough moments in the Jammu and Kashmir Assembly. During a debate, Omar was busy with his phone when an Opposition MLA was speaking. The furious MLA walked out saying Omar had insulted him. For a few days after, Omar kept his BlackBerry away. Now, he and his personal secretary are the only two in Jammu and Kashmir to use an iPad.

SOME OF Omar may have been shaped by his boarding school days in The Lawrence School, Sanawar. He spent eight years here, away from his flamboyant father, Farooq Abdullah, former chief minister of Jammu and Kash mir. This is where I learned to keep time. You are never to be late, he says. More than time, Omar may have learned to rely on himself. Almost imperceptibly, he began to shift away from those around him. Even today, he is most comfortable when with himself. He picked up strong corporate discipline, which makes results important for him. Farooq, the father, was famously spontaneous. He could be indiscreet and frivolous at times, but he mostly created uproar around him.

Omar, the son, is the opposite. He isnt spontaneous at all. It would appear that he lacks emotion. This makes it difficult for him to connect with people. He seems to have difficulty reaching out and warming people up. Only with his closest circle of friends, is he known to have Kashlet go and had a good time. Omars life outside Jammu and Kashmir also makes it tough for him to trust people he doesnt know. His style of administration thus gets impersonal. While the best governors need to be impersonal to do a good job, Kashmir makes it complex for Omar. He is modern and secular, and is good at giving directions, which he expects to be implemented. He is appropriate and correct. These are his assets.


Much to do 
Omar on the banks of the Sindhu to lay the foundation stone for a bridge
But, they can make him look dry and bureaucratic. It can make him look like he lacks emotional substance. It can make you feel he is not sympathetic even when he is. In a Kashmir driven by emotional logic, this is disaster. Kashmiris have a need to be hugged. They like to show affection physically. Omar has a problem hugging. Those in the know say they have never seen him hug anyone, nor have they seen him laugh heartily. Smiles, though, he does a lot. Kashmiris need to have a dream that excites them. Omar comes across as matter of fact, with his staccato style. Often, people have difficulty reading his face. They are unsure about what he is feeling, and that makes them nervous. It makes him a sort of a red rag to a bull. In the process, almost everybody, the young, the old, the women, the intelligentsia, and the Opposition parties have made him the target.

Since his public appearances are so controlled and few, impressions get created that Omar is not in control. His opponents ridicule him saying Governor NN Vohra runs the administration and Union Home Minister P Chidambaram oversees law and order. Omar, therefore, is up against plenty. In his home one morning, he opens up to us. I am up against the continued desire on the part of our neighbour to internationalise Kashmir. I am up against the inability, so far, of the government of India to lead a sustained political dialogue. I am up against a sense of disillusionment creeping in amongst people that they are seeing no progress in the peace process; both externally and internally. I am up against a huge problem of unemployment, which, in Kashmir, takes on a whole different connotation.

I am up against an Opposition that wants to be destructive rather than constructive. They have an almost scorched earth policy that if they cant govern, they are not going to let anybody else govern either. Wherever they go, they try and leave a trail of destruction. I am up against the vested interests of various forms that dont want to see normalcy in Jammu and Kashmir. I am even up against my own age; the fact that I am only 40. Certain quarters that are not well disposed towards me, would like to see me fail right in the beginning so they dont have to worry about me for the next 30 years.


As soon as the helicopter takes off, Omar quickly withdraws into his iPad. He is listening to Lionel Ritchie and reading Karl Rove at the same time
ITS A mess. Theres India, Pakistan, the Hurriyat, the stone-pelters, the militants, the security forces, the US, and Afghanistan. By any standards, Omars job is among the most sensitive in the country. Into this, he has to marry his famed corporate style with overt warmth and intimacy at all times. Anger is high in the state but theres no single big reason for this. Several incidents have come together to create a mosaic where fury is being targeted against Omar and the forces. It doesnt have the air of an insurgency; it does have the air of resistance.

So, after much discussion, Omar and his party arrived at a strategy. They decided they would exhaust the protesters. This means Omar will sit tight and apply law and order measures while talking all the time of the political nature of the dispute. He has subtly made it seem like an anti- national movement, which it isnt. I would gladly try and get them to the table. It may not be as a sort of open dialogue in the full glare of the world media; but quietly. I know the government of India did try and they started a quiet dialogue but unfortunately, again, circumstances sort of conspired to end that dialogue before it really got off the ground. If nothing else, Id like to see some of these groups and individuals start a meaningful long-term engagement with the government of India to try and narrow the differences.

Sometimes, the problem is that the people, who we want to engage in the dialogue process, want the dialogue on the part of the government of India to be without pre-conditions, while they come forth with a whole list of pre-conditions themselves. You talk about the revocation of the Armed Forces Special Protection Act, you talk about demilitarisation, you talk about relief for prisoners, etc. These are steps that would be taken, or decisions that would be arrived at, as a result of the dialogue. Not as a precursor to the dialogue. If they are going to set pre-conditions, then the government of India would be free to set pre-conditions. And the moment they do that, this dialogue is not going to get off the table, he says.

Some of the quiet engagement may have worked, at least for a while. On 5 August, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, the extremist Hurriyat Conference veteran, held a press conference, in the course of which he asked his followers to adopt Gandhian ways of protest. Geelani re-ferred to the burning of railway stations and said this was not what he wanted. That day, barely anything moved as the forces imposed strict curfew in Srinagar, prompting people to say that Omar had worked over Geelani and allowed a press conference on such a day only to ensure the peace message went across.


A CMs meeting 
Omar chairs a review meet of health programmes, including distribution of sanitary napkins to poorer families


Tech solace
In his helicopter, Omar with his iPad where he reads, downloads movies and listens to music

But even this is largely fire-fighting. Theres little evidence of fresh thinking in Kashmir today. Its the same long list of grievances, with a large dose of fresh fury. Perhaps there isnt fresh thinking, Omar says. Perhaps we have convinced ourselves and locked ourselves in this vicious cycle, where we are not willing to come forward and contribute positively. I can understand that the separatists have a vested interest in people dying so their movement can keep going. The moment some youth is killed as a result of a law and order disturbance, these guys are able to carry on with their calendar of protest for another week after that.

But I fail to understand what the interest of the PDP (Mehbooba Muftis party, the Peoples Democratic Party) is, other than discrediting my government and me personally. The more the separatists are able to keep their calendar of events going, the more the PDP space will also shrink. In the past few weeks, while we have been trying to reestablish contact with the people, where I have been travelling to Kangan, Handwara and other places, the only thing the PDP has seen fit to do is to lock the gate of the Secretariat. The PDP has 21 MLAs. Im not saying they should have vast public meetings, but there ought to be at least some chatter against what is happening. Against the closure of schools, shops and government hospitals; against the suffering of the patients in hospitals. I havent heard one positive noise from them. You then have to worry about who you are and whether there is fresh thinking. Obviously not.

OMAR HAS also taken one step that could mean a big difference on the streets. He is getting the police back to what they should have been doing anyway: deal with the people without guns. It is an ongoing exercise, he says. There are two types of footprints we need to establish. One is the anti-insurgency one, which gives us some scope of moving around because of the lower level of violence. But where insurgency is going down, law and order disturbances are going up. I am no expert in conflict resolution, but experts have told me that this is a pattern. That an insurgency is followed by a period of law and order disturbance, which also has to be sorted out.

It is important to reorient some of our security forces to look at dealing with law and order disturbances, equip, train and orient them accordingly. We have five battalions of the Indian Reserve Police who were to go for specialised commando training so we could involve them in anti-insurgency operations. But we have realised that anti-insurgency operations are less of a priority for us than law and order. We have decided to reorient these battalions for law and order and train them like the Rapid Action Force; give them nonlethal equipment for crowd control. This is the sort of thing we have to do.

What we are seeing of Omar is just the first stage of what he thinks will be a long time in Jammu and Kashmir. It took a series of meetings, not always pleasant, in the Abdullah household before Omars career was moved from hotel management to politics. It was a Rajiv Gandhi moment, the difference being that Omars wife agreed to his career shift. This is the youngest chief minister of Indias most sensitive state. He might make more mistakes, like anyone else. It could also mean he is chipping away at his weaknesses. In todays Kashmir, that is one story worth following.

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## Awesome

India sends more troops to quell Kashmir protests - CSMonitor.com

AFP: Latest deaths spark fresh protests in Indian Kashmir


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## Spring Onion

indianrabbit said:


> Yes people getting killed is good omen for you, take a leaf out of palestine, violence got them nothing nor it will get anything. Also remeber India is way to powerful for these protest to get anything out of it. The end result will be they will lose few more of theirs, some good men in uniform will also lose their life.



These women came to streets after Indian invader terrorist army killed their children and please do read its been reported by AFP.


These women are not violent check the Indian invader army men with heavy modern weapons VS stone carrying women. You will understand who is violent but only if you do not use Indian orange glasses.


2. The Kashmiris have got the way out for protest and the only leaf Indian invaders got from Palestinian situation is of use of force which has bled the Indians to their ear during all these years.

India is not even powerful to deal with insurgents in its own NE what to say about a foreign country Kashmir which they occupied


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## Iggy

Asim Aquil said:


> Indians have built up a trend, if there is a thread they don't like they will start posting offtopic rants and will talk about the sun and the moon but not the topic.
> 
> We will ban anyone found guilty of thread hijacking.



Asim you should also notice..its not us who is bringing Hindus and Zionists in every single thread..why dont you tell members from your side to keep it about Geographical area rather than mixing religion in each and every thing..I am not only saying this about the this thread but there are plenty of threads out there ruined like this..


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## Awesome

This is out of India's control now, it is even out of the control of the separatists and has become a people's movement. 

Pretty soon there will calls for a Long March to Srinagar and then a Long march to New Delhi!!

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## Hulk

Asim Aquil said:


> *They are killing vile, brutal invaders*, who have been PROVEN to have done fake encounters in Kashmir to earn medals over the dead bodies of Kashmiris.
> 
> Either they kill Indian soldiers now, or tomorrow another loser will stand up and claim a medal by killing a Kashmiri on the street.
> 
> There will be no need to kill Indian soldiers if they left Kashmir.



We were never invaders, we got a written invitaton, the true invaders were Pakstani.

Yes some fake enconters happen and so does it happen all parts of world including Pakistan. What is important to know if government supported them or not or was it act by individuals. (No one knows what an individual has in his mind).

Once you gather a crowd of thousands then start stone pelting and arson and when get killed in riot control try to play victim.

IMO anyone involved in rioting of any kind is not innocent but a violent person and people supporting them are equally guilty.

Tell me one incidence when these Kashmiri had ever done a peaceful protest? Why they kicked out Hindus from Valley? Where they not humans and these very people plotted against them so they are evil themselves.

These are the same people who brutally murdered, raped and looted Hindus just because of religion and none Pakistani ever said a word against them why?


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## Spring Onion

seiko said:


> No medal was given for killing a Kashmiri..yes was given to persons who killed terrorists and we will continue to give them..Fake enounters are not prooven by any International body but Indian authorities itself..so credit goes to India again..It shows that even a single injustice will not be allowed against Kashmiries..



The medals were given for tomato catch up dramas and it was exposed only because some other tomato catch up Colonels felt the need to pull the leg because they were NOT decorated with the same.


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## Awesome

seiko said:


> No medal was given for killing a Kashmiri..yes was given to persons who killed terrorists and we will continue to give them..Fake enounters are not prooven by any International body but Indian authorities itself..so credit goes to India again..It shows that even a single injustice will not be allowed against Kashmiries..


yeah but its now proven they were not terrorists, but innocent Kashmiris. 

The fact that this is happening has been stated by Pakistan for 2 decades now, it brings all the 100,000+ deaths in Kashmir into question - India was the villain all along.


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## Iggy

Jana said:


> The medals were given for tomato catch up dramas and it was exposed only because some other tomato catch up Colonels felt the need to pull the leg because they were NOT decorated with the same.



@Asim is it Offtopic??anyway its none of your bloody business..its our Army and as i said it was discovered by Indian authorities and we give them punishment for it..and it has nothing to do with Kashmiries..dont try to troll around ..


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## Hulk

Asim Aquil said:


> yeah but its now proven they were not terrorists, but innocent Kashmiris.
> 
> The fact that this is happening has been stated by Pakistan for 2 decades now, it brings all the 100,000+ deaths in Kashmir into question - India was the villain all along.



When there are violent people who resort to killing there are bound to be deaths of that numbers, look at other areas where there are violent people who does not follow law and order, similar story. How about FATA and NWFP?


----------



## barcelona

i just want to ask one thing if sombody labels all your countries army as rapist ...................& if you try to show them there side of pictures its deemed to "pathatic " in the eyes of mods is truly very interesting..............................in my opinion if some people think they are journos they should try to act like one not spread unsubstantiated stories as truth...............................................................


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## Hulk

Asim Aquil said:


> *But when Kashmiris choose they are still going to choose Pakistan over India.*
> Moreover, we are also okay with the Kashmiris choosing Independence to form a united Kashmir. As long as they choose on their own, what India gives them is not justice, its imposition of its will.



That is devoid of facts, the Kashmir has 42&#37; hindu popuation completly with India and rest are divided between Independence most and then few want to join Pakistan. All polls suggest the same, however we tend to use Kashmiri for only people from valley.


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## Awesome

seiko said:


> @Asim is it Offtopic??anyway its none of your bloody business..its our Army and as i said it was discovered by Indian authorities and we give them punishment for it..and it has nothing to do with Kashmiries..dont try to troll around ..


It's offtopic? It's at the heart of the reason these women are beating up your security forces.

Remember on page one, a woman said they will have to kill us before they kill our sons and daughters. You're messing with a mother's instinct to protect its young.

---------- Post added at 03:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:52 PM ----------




barcelona said:


> i just want to ask one thing if sombody labels all your countries army as rapist ...................& if you try to show them there side of pictures its deemed to "pathatic " in the eyes of mods is truly very interesting..............................in my opinion if some people think they are journos they should try to act like one not spread unsubstantiated stories as truth...............................................................


No you're wrong. This thread is about the topic, nothing else. You can try everything else on some other forum. Over here we stick to topic.

---------- Post added at 03:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:52 PM ----------




indianrabbit said:


> When there are violent people who resort to killing there are bound to be deaths of that numbers, look at other areas where there are violent people who does not follow law and order, similar story. How about FATA and NWFP?


Again with the FATA and NWFP, this thread is not about that.


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## RobbieS

Asim Aquil said:


> This is out of India's control now, it is even out of the control of the separatists and has become a people's movement.
> 
> Pretty soon there will calls for a Long March to Srinagar and then a Long march to New Delhi!!



Pretty far-fetched. You are underestimating GoI's capability to put down these strifes.


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## Spring Onion

Asim Aquil said:


> This is out of India's control now, it is even out of the control of the separatists and has become a people's movement.
> 
> Pretty soon there will calls for a Long March to Srinagar and then a Long march to New Delhi!!



 the report said thousands of people including children and women defying curfew came on roads .



> *
> "New Delhi paints the street protests as incited by Pakistan-based militants or radical bands of stone throwers. But the evidence is growing this may be a wider and spontaneous movement led by young Kashmiris angry at years of misrule."*


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## FlickerSingh

Asim Aquil said:


> They are killing vile, brutal invaders, who have been PROVEN to have done fake encounters in Kashmir to earn medals over the dead bodies of Kashmiris.
> 
> Either they kill Indian soldiers now, or tomorrow another loser will stand up and claim a medal by killing a Kashmiri on the street.
> 
> *There will be no need to kill Indian soldiers if they left Kashmir*.



just by the bolded sentence you changed my mind about indian police violence against kashmiris. I always hoped that the matter can be peacefully sorted and asked why the need to kill protesting civilians but now I see why it is necessary for our men to massacre the violent protestors. our soldiers will never leave kashmir. if need be we will wipe out every kashmiri who is against indian ownership of kashmir. we have enough indians to repopulate kashmir with. whether we kill 45 or 4,5 million nobody can do anything about it. not especially pakistan.


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## Iggy

Asim Aquil said:


> yeah but its now proven they were not terrorists, but innocent Kashmiris.
> 
> The fact that this is happening has been stated by Pakistan for 2 decades now, it brings all the 100,000+ deaths in Kashmir into question - India was the villain all along.



proove that there was 100,00 deaths..even if its happened its not only IA is responsible..equal responsibility was in the hands of those terrorists supported by you..most of the people were killed in the cross fire..I am not denying that there were bad apples..but putting blame on everything on IA is not going to fly..


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## Spring Onion

RobbieS said:


> Pretty far-fetched. You are underestimating GoI's capability to put down these strifes.



Bullets will give rise to more strifes. The brutality and ugly face of India can be seen from the fact that India refuses to use the force in own territories against militants But do so in occupied country Kashmir because there they kill Kashmiris not bhartis


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

"ISI arming Kashmiris with rocks" 

The throwing of the stone is the oldest display of "we need you to gtfo" and also civilized compared to what Indian forces are doing to youths aged 12-28


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## Hulk

Asim Aquil said:


> It's offtopic? It's at the heart of the reason these women are beating up your security forces.
> 
> Remember on page one, a woman said they will have to kill us before they kill our sons and daughters. You're messing with a mother's instinct to protect its young.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:52 PM ----------
> 
> 
> No you're wrong. This thread is about the topic, nothing else. You can try everything else on some other forum. Over here we stick to topic.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:52 PM ----------
> 
> 
> *Again with the FATA and NWFP, this thread is not about that*.



You are just trying to ignore the logic provided, the logic was when trying to control violent people deaths are bound to happen as some people have habit of not following law and gave an example of NFWP. I guess you did not read that clearly it is on topic.

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## Spring Onion

indianrabbit said:


> You are just trying to ignore the logic provided, the logic was when trying to control violent people deaths are bound to happen as some people have habit of not following law and gave an example of NFWP. I guess you did not read that clearly it is on topic.



*Again when you run out of logics you bring off topics here.

But ok lets use your yardstick Why India does NOT use its terrorist army in North East to quell "militancy" why India is not killing people there in own territory but use barbarism in a foreign Country Kashmir???

*


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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> This is out of India's control now, it is even out of the control of the separatists and has become a people's movement.
> 
> Pretty soon there will calls for a Long March to Srinagar and then a Long march to New Delhi!!



Dont break out the bubbly just as yet.. You can expect a major distracting announcement in next 72 hours..


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## FlickerSingh

Jana said:


> Bullets will give rise to more strifes. The brutality and ugly face of India can be seen from the fact that India refuses to use the force in own territories against militants But do so in occupied country Kashmir because there they kill Kashmiris not bhartis



kashmiris are bhartis. stop living in denial and smell the oxygen around you.


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## FlickerSingh

Jana said:


> *Again when you run out of logics you bring off topics here.
> 
> But ok lets use your yardstick Why India does NOT use its terrorist army in North East to quell "militancy" why India is not killing people there in own territory but use barbarism in a foreign Country Kashmir???
> 
> *



maybe its the hindu - muslim thing ?


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

FlickerSingh said:


> maybe its the hindu - muslim thing ?



There are Hindu minority in Pakistan. Even Sikh. We don't have a religious difference, we have a moral one with India. They continue to hold our territory hostage and deny the people there even a choice in their future.


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## EjazR

*52 killed as bus falls into river in Pakistan-controlled Kashmir*

ISLAMABAD, Aug. 5 (Xinhua) -- At least 52 people were killed and 11 others were injured Thursday after a passenger bus fell into river in northeast Pakistan-controlled Kashmir, local police said.

According to reports, the ill-fated bus coming from Muzaffarabad, the capital city of Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK), plunged into the Jhelum River near Ghari Duppata area after driving some 25 km away.

Due to heavy rain and overspeeding, the driver lost control of the bus before it went into river, said Muhammad Imtiaz, the Deputy Commissioner of Muzaffarabad.

Rescue workers and ambulances have been sent from Muzaffarabad to provide first aid to the injured. The search operation is underway for the missing persons.

Eye-witnesses said that the bus was jam packed and overloaded as passengers were ridding on the roof as well.

AJK Prime Minister Sardar Ateeq Ahmad Khan constituted a committee to probe the incident and announced compensation of 50, 000 rupees (about 600 U.S. dollars) each for the deceased and 25, 000 each for the wounded.


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

RIP, these transportation companies have the worst buses, drivers and the compensation is nothing. We have to upgrade and take care of the infrastructure in Azad Kashmir and Northern Areas of J&K.


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## ice_man

sad very sad!!!! it seems its just BAD NEWS all around these days in Pakistan & AJK! may they all Rest In Peace!! Inna Lilahi wa inna ilahi rajioun!


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## Iggy

Asim Aquil said:


> It's offtopic? It's at the heart of the reason these women are beating up your security forces.
> 
> Remember on page one, a woman said they will have to kill us before they kill our sons and daughters. You're messing with a mother's instinct to protect its young.
> 
> .




I dont see the relevance of this quote with Kashmiri issue..



Jana said:


> The medals were given for tomato catch up dramas and it was exposed only because some other tomato catch up Colonels felt the need to pull the leg because they were NOT decorated with the same.




Now dont blame us for going offtopic...


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## Iggy

Jana said:


> *Again when you run out of logics you bring off topics here.
> 
> But ok lets use your yardstick Why India does NOT use its terrorist army in North East to quell "militancy" why India is not killing people there in own territory but use barbarism in a foreign Country Kashmir???
> 
> *



I think you are living in the 90's there are no more miltancy in North East..only problem happened was last week bomb blast but comrpared to 90's its clam out there..update yourself before posting such nonsense ..


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## Iggy

In simple English..Army was deployed and fired at civilans when they turned violent in every part of the world to get situation under control..the same thing happened here..this is what Indian rabbit is saying too..


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## EjazR

*Omar Abdullah dispatches relief trucks to curfew-bound areas - India - DNA*

Jammu and Kashmir chief minister Omar Abdullah today chaired a high-level meeting to review the supplies of medicine, baby food and other essential items and directed the ministry concerned to make them available to the people in curfew-bound areas.

The government also made its secretariat functional by asking government officials to join the duty and 660 employees out of approximately 1800 turned up.

During the meeting, Omar discussed the supplies of medicines, baby food, LPG and other essential items in Kashmir Valley and directed the consumer affairs and public distribution department to carry such supplies to various areas which have been curfew-bound for some days.

A special thrust was laid on the supply of baby food as the chief minister said that his office had received requests from certain areas in downtown city about its scarcity.

Official vehicles will be carrying the essential supplies in the evening and people at large have been requested to maintain calm and allow the distribution of food items.

Omar also took stock of the availability of medicines in various hospitals and directed the health ministry to airlift medicines, if required.

He lauded doctors and para-medical staff for discharging their duties in difficult circumstances. He also asked the Health Department to ensure food for the attendants of the patients.

Curfew remained clamped today in the Kashmir Valley which witnessed overnight clashes between stone-pelting protestors and security forces.

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## ice_man

indianrabbit said:


> Look at these women doing stone pelting. This shows how violent these people are, while she is protesting aginst violence at he same time she herself is violent. I mean hypocrisy at best, when we kill thats ok but when ours get killed accidently that is injustic. Basically these people are devoid of logic and born violent. Madam wanted to check with you where were you when militants was killing the Hindus in valley, so justic is only for Muslims?




depends on how you look at the glass as half full or half empty?? 

from where i see it it is HOW HELPLESS is the women being a sub continent women if she is resorting to pelting shows her utter frustration!!! you and i both know that south asians don't do such things unless they have been frustrated beyond imagination!


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## Iggy

@Asim:why did you delete the reply i posted againt the argument of Jana???it is very much relevent to the Kashmir issue..those four people were recruited from my state and got killed in Kashmir..the coin has flip side too ..there are people from outside Kashmir who is killing and burning in the name of religion there..




Jana said:


> It is very sad to know that you in a bid to justify the terrorism of Indian army in Kashmir, even had succumbed to the false propaganda by Indians that Indians from Kerala were fighting along side freedom fighters against Indian troops.


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## FreekiN

R.i.P

The mountains are extremely dangerous to drive on. i've been there and we had to drive at like 5mph for like 25 miles. 

What kept us slow, is seeing the roadside results of what would happen if you sped... upside down cars in the valley crushed into pieces.


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## Spitfighter

Asim Aquil said:


> Awesome... Love their spirit. *India will not be able to handle Kashmir any more.*





We've been hearing that for decades. Remember how bad things were in the 90's? The PA would openly shell IA positions along the border as it tried to push infiltrators across. Kya hua? NOTHING. 

One way or the other we will restore order, its only a matter of time. Desi babus can sit on their behind and stonewall like its their job. There are legal ways to protest, assaulting LEO's isn't one of them. If stone pelting and chest beating were actually of any use the Palestinians would've had their way decades ago. Most people just want to go about their normal lives, these paid stone pelters should be found and arrested. If anyone has any news about such arrests please post.


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## amit27

People saying India is 3rd world yet the US state dept says India is a transforming nation. 

Kashmir will always be part of India as it is holy land for hindus, sikhs and buddhist and no Indian goverment has the authority to give our land to pakistan thats the cold hard fact.


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## Hulk

Kashmiri's in this context bigots of valley have a violent track record. I listed they killed and raped fellow Hindus, none of Pakistani have replied to this so far. Similarly there are other regions where people resort to violent means and does not follow rule of law, their also armies have similar casuality rate, that is why I gave example of FATA.


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## su-47

May the poor victims rest in peace. It is so tragic when human negligence like over speeding causes so much grief. 

It has been a sad week in Pakistan. May there be no more tragedy


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## Abu Zolfiqar

some of them arent peaceful protestsers I WONDER WHY? HMMMM, is it really difficult to understand WHY?


some of you people are really incredible.......so blind to truths, listen to what your media brainwashed you about


when so much frustration builds up after years of occupation, obviously there will be resistance. In the eyes of most Kashmiris, hindustans occupation is illegitimate and for that reason they are resisting


and just because they are doing that does not make them militants, does not make them ''ISI operatives''


God damn!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

FlickerSingh said:


> *kashmiris are bhartis*. stop living in denial and smell the oxygen around you.






yes we can see nowdays how accurate you are on this statement


----------



## amit27

China Riots Kill More Than 150 (SLIDESHOW, VIDEO)


Pakistan silent when it comes to brother China who killed more muslims in riots why is that i wonder?


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

*Female Protesters Pile on Pressure in Indian Kashmir​*
_Female protesters pile on pressure in Indian Kashmir​_
By Izhar Wani (AFP)​


> *SRINAGAR, India  "We are out on the streets with a message -- kill us before you kill our young boys and girls," says Rehana Ashraf, a female teacher in Indian Kashmir.*
> 
> It is a stance which makes the security forces deeply anxious as they battle to suppress a surge of violent protests against India's rule of the Muslim-majority region.
> 
> *An increasing number of women have been involved in the demonstrations, during which at least 45 people have been killed in the last eight weeks.*
> 
> Most of the victims are young men who have died in gun fire as security forces try to enforce curfew orders that have brought ordinary life to a halt.
> 
> *Each death -- particularly those of two women so far -- has triggered further angry protests and an equally strong response from Indian paramilitary troops and police.*
> 
> "Under such circumstances, you can't expect us to remain silent," said Ashraf, 49, who lives in the region's main town Srinagar with her two young daughters. "We want to send out a message that we are not weak."
> 
> Young men have always led the street protests and stone-throwing in Kashmir during 20 years of rebellion, but that is changing.
> 
> *"We have lost our patience. They have killed our sons and brothers. How do you expect us to be mute spectators?" 41-year-old Mehbooba Akhter, a mother of three teenage sons, told AFP.*
> 
> Akhter, a Srinagar resident, said she has been taking part in the wave of anti-India protests, which began when a 17-year-old male student was killed by a police tear-gas shell in Srinagar on June 11.
> 
> *Hundreds of women and girls, many in colourful salwar kameez dresses, have since been regularly out on the streets chanting "we want freedom!" and "blood for blood!" Some carry sticks and stones.*
> 
> Dealing with female protesters is a fraught challenge for the police and paramilitary troops struggling to control the protests, which India says are instigated by hardline groups supported by Pakistan.
> 
> "Putting women and children in the front of rallies is a deliberate attempt by separatists to put us on back foot," Prabhakar Tripathi, spokesman for paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), told AFP.
> 
> "They know we won't confront them," he said.
> 
> Many women who do not directly take part in rallies carry drinking water to the protesters and also direct youths down escape routes as they flee from baton charges, tear-gas and gunfire.
> 
> "It is not the responsibility of men alone to protest against injustice. We women have to be in the forefront to fight it too," said Shamima Javed, 38.
> 
> *"I am joining protests to express my solidarity with those women who lost their sons and daughters."*
> 
> Syeda Afshana, a leading columnist and lecturer in the main Kashmir university, says the increasing female presence reflects the sense of injustice felt by Kashmiris.
> 
> "Out on the streets, women are making their minds felt," Afshana told AFP. "By pelting stones, they are expressing their collective anger."



AFP: Female protesters pile on pressure in Indian Kashmir


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## Spring Onion

)))) lolzz for justifying Indian terrorism the Indians are even ready to exchange their bloodline


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## Abu Zolfiqar

amit27 said:


> China Riots Kill More Than 150 (SLIDESHOW, VIDEO)
> 
> 
> Pakistan silent when it comes to brother China who killed more muslims in riots why is that i wonder?



They requested the help of Pakistani ulema/scholars/religious parties to negotiate with the Uyghur Islamist elements in the interests of quelling the violence

we were accredited with doing such



btw, there were some voices of condemnation inside of Pakistan against what was going on; even in this forum 

---------- Post added at 05:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:26 PM ----------

*Female Protesters Pile on Pressure in Indian Kashmir​*
_Female protesters pile on pressure in Indian Kashmir​_
By Izhar Wani (AFP)​


> *SRINAGAR, India &#8212; "We are out on the streets with a message -- kill us before you kill our young boys and girls," says Rehana Ashraf, a female teacher in Indian Kashmir.*
> 
> It is a stance which makes the security forces deeply anxious as they battle to suppress a surge of violent protests against India's rule of the Muslim-majority region.
> 
> *An increasing number of women have been involved in the demonstrations, during which at least 45 people have been killed in the last eight weeks.*
> 
> Most of the victims are young men who have died in gun fire as security forces try to enforce curfew orders that have brought ordinary life to a halt.
> 
> *Each death -- particularly those of two women so far -- has triggered further angry protests and an equally strong response from Indian paramilitary troops and police.*
> 
> "Under such circumstances, you can't expect us to remain silent," said Ashraf, 49, who lives in the region's main town Srinagar with her two young daughters. "We want to send out a message that we are not weak."
> 
> Young men have always led the street protests and stone-throwing in Kashmir during 20 years of rebellion, but that is changing.
> 
> *"We have lost our patience. They have killed our sons and brothers. How do you expect us to be mute spectators?" 41-year-old Mehbooba Akhter, a mother of three teenage sons, told AFP.*
> 
> Akhter, a Srinagar resident, said she has been taking part in the wave of anti-India protests, which began when a 17-year-old male student was killed by a police tear-gas shell in Srinagar on June 11.
> 
> *Hundreds of women and girls, many in colourful salwar kameez dresses, have since been regularly out on the streets chanting "we want freedom!" and "blood for blood!" Some carry sticks and stones.*
> 
> Dealing with female protesters is a fraught challenge for the police and paramilitary troops struggling to control the protests, which India says are instigated by hardline groups supported by Pakistan.
> 
> "Putting women and children in the front of rallies is a deliberate attempt by separatists to put us on back foot," Prabhakar Tripathi, spokesman for paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), told AFP.
> 
> "They know we won't confront them," he said.
> 
> Many women who do not directly take part in rallies carry drinking water to the protesters and also direct youths down escape routes as they flee from baton charges, tear-gas and gunfire.
> 
> "It is not the responsibility of men alone to protest against injustice. We women have to be in the forefront to fight it too," said Shamima Javed, 38.
> 
> *"I am joining protests to express my solidarity with those women who lost their sons and daughters."*
> 
> Syeda Afshana, a leading columnist and lecturer in the main Kashmir university, says the increasing female presence reflects the sense of injustice felt by Kashmiris.
> 
> "Out on the streets, women are making their minds felt," Afshana told AFP. "By pelting stones, they are expressing their collective anger."



AFP: Female protesters pile on pressure in Indian Kashmir


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## Spring Onion

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> :
> 
> 
> yes we can see nowdays how accurate you are on this statement



heheheh ya alaka dwee kho plar hum badal karo khpal

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## amit27

The whole point of a curfew is to stay inside but some of these youths decided to come out and throw stones and were faced with bullets and some were shot dead was it really worth it?


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## SurvivoR

Hahahahhahahaha Jana you are too much!


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## prototype

Asim Aquil said:


> This is out of India's control now, it is even out of the control of the separatists and has become a people's movement.
> 
> Pretty soon there will calls for a Long March to Srinagar and then a Long march to New Delhi!!




feel free to think so,i expect u to sing the same song even after 100 yrs



Jana said:


> Bullets will give rise to more strifes. The brutality and ugly face of India can be seen from the fact that India refuses to use the force in own territories against militants But do so in occupied country Kashmir because there they kill Kashmiris not bhartis




i think u have a feeling being muslim means not being part of India,i will not answer that,i expect some Indian muslim member to answer that as u r so much lost in faith of ur ummah whatever that u will not b ready to take a hindu's word,and for god sake dont make statements like disillutioned muslim or kafir when reply come,as u have a feeling as Allah have pronounced u as the purest islamic souls in the world,and as far as kashmir is concerned it also have a big population of both Hindu's and Buddhas,so dont expect any miracle,kashmir will still remain with us 


Abu Zolfiqar said:


> yes we can see nowdays how accurate you are on this statement



ever heard about APJ Abdul Kalam,he is a muslim,he is the man who put 'MADE IN INDIA'stamp on missiles,the same missiles we use against ur nation

if u feel the example is getting old PM me i will b back with 100 other examples,but as i said u r free to fell and celebrate

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## Break the Silence

This congi govt is paralized, first they should end special autonomy and the wicked article 370..to connect J& k to main stream.

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## GreenStar

Amit i'm not being bad or nothing but the pictures kindly provided by Abu Zolfiqar show that the older generation are involved aswell........even women.......now they can't all be paid by separatists.......something must be wrong with the system for them to start a riot.


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## EjazR

*The Hindu : News / National : Omar visits hospital, meets injured in recent violence*







In an effort to check the medical facilties provided to those injured in the current unrest in Jammu and Kashmir, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah visited a leading hospital here on Thursday, unfazed of a hostile crowd that surrounded him.

Mr. Abdullah drove from his office to super speciality Sher-e-Kashmir Institute of Medical Sciences(SKIMS) where he talked to the patients and their attendants.

The Chief Minister went into the hospital taking everyone by surprise, officials said, adding the decision to make an on-the-spot visit was taken following reports of lack of medicines for patients and food for attendants.

As Mr. Abdullah entered a ward, women came up to him and narrated their experiences about the tragedy that had befallen them during the present unrest.

He enquired about the facilities being made available to the patients at the hospital.

*Immediately, around 200-odd people surrounded the Chief Minister and indulged in slogan shouting giving jitters to security personnel who advised him to leave the hospital.*

*However, undeterred by the slogan shouting, he reasoned with the people requesting them not to disturb the atmosphere at the hospital where patients were recuperating.*

Mr. Abdullah visited the main tertiary care hospital and took stock of the availability of medicines and life saving drugs.

He also instructed the Director of SKIMS and doctors concerned to provide best possible medical care to the affected persons.


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## GreenStar

> decided to come out and throw stones and were faced with bullets



The almighty Indian economy can't afford to purchase water gun tank....yet it decides to spend billions on defence deal.........that is shambolic.


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## EjazR

*Control room in Kashmir for complaints on essential supplies, IBN Live News*

(PTI) Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah today took stock of availability of essential items, including baby food and medicines, in the valley and ordered setting up of round-the-clock control room for redressing grievances of people regarding such supplies. Omar chaired a high-level meeting and instructed that the Public Distribution System be activated to mitigate the difficulties of people in the prevailing situation. Curfew remained clamped in Kashmir Valley which witnessed overnight clashes between stone-pelting protestors and security forces. The government also opened the Secretariat, which saw a good number of employees turning up for duty. Omar said the Consumer Affairs and Public Distribution Department must ensure the availability and distribution of foodgrains through its outlets. It was decided that foodgrains will continue to be given at the scale of 50 kg per ration card, an official spokesman said. Omar directed the department to ensure availability of LPG and kerosene oil besides setting up of a control room where the consumers can register their grievances regarding essential supplies. He also instructed that the telephone numbers of the control room be provided to the Chief Minister''s Grievance Cell for coordinating timely redressal of grievances. The consumers will also have the option to register their grievances at the Chief Minister''s Cell. Taking cognizance of the reports regarding shortage of baby food and medicines, it was decided that CAPD will procure baby food and organise its distribution through its outlets, the spokesman said, adding Rs one crore has been kept at the disposal of the department for the purpose. The Chief Secretary was asked to ascertain the availability of medicines, particularly life-saving drugs and take necessary measures to make these available to the health institutions. The Deputy Commissioners have been instructed to issue passes to the chemists and pharmaceutical dealers so that they remain operational even during curfew. Meanwhile, Government also released Rs 45 lakh to various hospitals including SKIMS, SMHS and Bone and Joint Hospitals, Divisional Commissioner, Kashmir and Deputy Commissioners for arranging free and timely treatment of persons who have sustained injuries due to the prevailing disturbances. Official vehicles were like to carry essential supplies in the evening and people have been requested to maintain calm and allow the distribution of food items.


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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> some of them arent peaceful protestsers I WONDER WHY? HMMMM, is it really difficult to understand WHY?
> 
> 
> some of you people are really incredible.......so blind to truths, listen to what your media brainwashed you about
> 
> 
> when so much frustration builds up after years of occupation, obviously there will be resistance. In the eyes of most Kashmiris, hindustans occupation is illegitimate and for that reason they are resisting
> 
> 
> and just because they are doing that does not make them militants, does not make them ''ISI operatives''
> 
> 
> God damn!



Whatever the reason, you cant allow law and order situation go out of control. If you do, you see what's happeneing in Karachi right now. So I think its better for LEO's to take action and the miscreants get killed (as in Kashmir . some 40 in a 3 weeks) as against Police not taking strong action and innocents getting killed (as in karachi - 80 killed in 3 days)


----------



## Dr.Evil

GreenStar said:


> The almighty Indian economy can't afford to purchase water gun tank....yet it decides to spend billions on defence deal.........that is shambolic.



These trouble mongers are getting what they deserve for creating distubances in the state.

I Have no sympathy for those terrorists and their supporters.


----------



## GreenStar

> Pakistan silent when it comes to brother China who killed more muslims in riots why is that i wonder?



You need to stick to the topic, why bring China into the picture, its about Kashmir.....so from your prospective its okay to kill thousands of Kashmiri.....just because Pakistan was silent during the riots in China.


----------



## GreenStar

> These trouble mongers are getting what they deserve for creating distubances in the state.



What do you expect you have raped and killied there people........should they skip along and smile and think nothing has happened......I don't think so. With that kind of thinking your just creating more terrorists and a continious cycle of hatred on the Indian goverment


----------



## Neither Right Nor Wrong

GreenStar said:


> You need to stick to the topic, why bring China into the picture, its about Kashmir.....so from your prospective its okay to kill thousands of Kashmiri.....just because Pakistan was silent during the riots in China.


*
The thing is, that Pakistan should remain silent on this issue ..because all Pakistanis were silent when same was happening in Pakistan....hence they should not criticize Indians when they are unable to prevent the same on their own territory. *


----------



## Bratva

Governors rule seems inevitable

Thursday, August 05, 2010
By Arun Rajnath

NEW DELHI: *Political parties, including the Hurriyat Conference and even the militants, are fast becoming irrelevant in held Jammu and Kashmir and the masses have taken over the movement, leaving the central government with only two options  either commit widescale massacres or impose the governors rule in the state.*

Anti-India sentiments, police atrocities and public anger are being daily reflected on the streets in the Valley but the public is in no mood to listen to militants or the Hurriyat leaders. The latest example is of the United Jihad Council Chairman Sayyad Salahuddin, who had recently appealed to the general public to continue the stir in a phased manner as people were suffering and schools were closed. 

Soon after this appeal, the Kashmiri people became so enraged that they burnt the effigy of Sayyad Salahuddin in Srinagar on Aug 2. Nobody could have imagined that the people could take such an extreme step.

Similarly, Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani darted off a message of truce to the government from his hospital bed, claiming that he would calm the people if the government was ready to lift the curfew. When people came to know about this, they assembled outside Geelanis house and threatened to set it ablaze.

Again on Aug 2, two militants were spotted in Badgam district who were carrying arms. A public procession was passing by highlighting the anti-India sentiments. Agitators surrounded the militants and told them they were not needed now as the people had vowed to take the struggle to its logical end. They asked the militants to drop the arms and follow the procession.

During the nights, people stay on the roads, they do not go to their homes and they are ready to face anything, which may come their way. Anti-India and anti-government sentiments are running high. To express these sentiments, they usually attack the government buildings and set them on fire. When they wish to vent their ire against the J&K state government, they pelt stones at the residences of state ministers as they did on the night of Aug 2. People assembled at the houses of Senior Minister Ali Mohammad Sagar and Omar Abdullahs confidant Mubarak Gul and pelted stones.

*Security forces have also increased their atrocious actions. In Batmaloo, policemen thrust a baton inside the mouth of an eight-year-boy Sameer on Aug 2. His lungs ruptured and he is in a hospital in critical condition. *

Hashim Qureshi, an old associate of late Maqbool Butt, told this correspondent that police never use water canons or rubber bullets to disperse stone pelting protesters. Police aim tear gas shells at their heads. Many youths have been killed by these shells. Twenty people have been killed in the last three days, and a total 37 since June 11. 

Hashim Qureshi said the governors rule was the only option to calm the people, and after six months, fresh elections should be conducted. He said that the government had never worked properly in the held Valley. There are 430 seminaries in Srinagar alone and none of them was registered. The government pays no attention towards them to modernise them. Students of these seminaries are also creating problems. 

Hashim said Qasmi Ishtu, who is in the Central Jail, controls the stone pelters from jail. He said though there is no external hand behind the unrest, yet the Peoples Democratic Party and the Jamaat-i-Islami were involved.

*Moreover, young Omar Abdullah has no clue what to do. One the one hand, he demands more security troops and on the other he wants them to exercise restraint*. 

He rushed to New Delhi and had meetings with the Indian prime minister on the held Valley situation. After the meeting, he told a press conference: J&K has a political situation. It needs a political package more than an economic package. By political package, I mean dealing with issues like Armed Forces Special Powers Act, footprint of the security forces, rehabilitation package for youngsters who are across the Line of Control and compensation for victims of the ongoing trouble. *When posed a question by this correspondent on the indigenous nature of the agitation and massive participation of the general public, Omar Abdullah sternly stared and left.*

Held Kashmir unrest getting out of Indian hands


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## Break the Silence

New Delhi: Thirty-eight young members of Parliament have written to the youth of Jammu and Kashmir expressing empathy, pleading for restraint and endorsing the need for dialogue. 

Cutting across party lines, the MPs, including Priya Dutt, Dipendra Huda and Sandeep Dixit of the Congress, Akhilesh Yadav and Neeraj Shekhar of the Samajwadi Party and Supriya Sule of the NCP, have issued a signed statement that says: 

*"We deeply mourn the loss of innumerable young life. What has happened in the recent past has been very unfortunate and we are deeply concerned. We as representatives of people ourselves believe that together with positive frame of mind we can seek resolution only through open communication. History teaches us that any resolution can only be brought about through dialogue and not through violence. In this century when the whole world is looking towards India and we ourselves look to join the club of developed nations we believe this dream can only be achieved if all parts of our nation equally reap the fruits of our developments and when all of us are stake holders in this dream. Future belongs to our generation. We, the young parliamentarians, belonging to your generation sincerely hope for a bright shared future for you and for all of us together. We urge our young brothers and sisters in J&K to exercise restraint and have trust in power of dialogue." *

38 young MPs write to the youth of Kashmir


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## dabong1

amit27 said:


> China Riots Kill More Than 150 (SLIDESHOW, VIDEO)
> 
> 
> Pakistan silent when it comes to brother China who killed more muslims in riots why is that i wonder?



I hope you know that more non muslims died in the riots in china then muslims.


----------



## GreenStar

> he thing is Pakistan should remain silent on this issue ..because all Pakistanis were silent when same was happening in Pakistan....hence they should not criticize Indians when they are unable to prevent the same on their own territory.



Good thing is I'm British so I can criticize India all I want. This is a Pakistani defence forum so any Pakistan has right to criticize India.......why should they remain silent.....if you don't like it then why don't you join Bharat Rakshak the racists website........at least the Pakistani posters here are not racists like your fellow Indians in that forum. 

But the truth is in what I have seen is that the truth is hurting you Indians....as you keep diverting the subject, on about other antions


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## Dr.Evil

GreenStar said:


> Good thing is I'm British so I can criticize India all I want. This is a Pakistani defence forum so any Pakistan has right to criticize India.......why should they remain silent.....if you don't like it then why don't you join Bharat Rakshak the racists website........at least the Pakistani posters here are not racists like your fellow Indians in that forum.
> 
> But the truth is in what I have seen is that the truth is hurting you Indians....as you keep diverting the subject, on about other antions



How much ever you try to hide behind your adopted flags, we know can guess your ethinicity and Origin.

Pakistani's should not meddle in India's affairs.


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## GreenStar

> Security forces have also increased their atrocious actions. In Batmaloo, policemen thrust a baton inside the mouth of an eight-year-boy Sameer on Aug 2. His lungs ruptured and he is in a hospital in critical condition.



How do you Indians explain this......what type of goverment which preaches on democracy does this type of action. The boy is 8 and is that how you treat youngsters in your country........boy is India so backward.


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## dabong1

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> *
> The thing is, that Pakistan should remain silent on this issue ..because all Pakistanis were silent when same was happening in Pakistan....hence they should not criticize Indians when they are unable to prevent the same on their own territory. *



Only problem is that kashmir is not part of your territory but that you occupied it.

Please do tell tell us how many muslims where killed in the riots in china compared to the han chinese.


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## dabong1

amit27 said:


> The whole point of a curfew is to stay inside but some of these youths decided to come out and throw stones and were faced with bullets and some were shot dead was it really worth it?



Do you do the same india.......shoot all protesters.


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## GreenStar

> How much ever you try to hide behind your adopted flags, we know can guess your ethinicity and Origin.



So what does the truth hurt that you have to resort to petty comments.......can you not answer the question.....now that you realise what a shambolic goverment you have that encourages a policeman to stick a baton through a boys mouth. 

The Norman's invaded England in 1066......does that mean all english people who are white are French...the answer is NO.....so get over it........if you can't debate then you should be silent.......otherwise I will report you to the Mods.


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## dabong1

Why not just have a vote and see what the people want?.......or does the "open communication" and "power of dialogue" not go there?

*We urge our young brothers and sisters in J&K to exercise restraint and have trust in power of dialogue." *

Why give this piece of advice to the indian army and govt..........its your forces what are killing the people.


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## nitesh28

persnally i would think kashmir is not worth it.

let them go and do whatever they want.

the only apprehension i have is that this decision will bring fanatic taliban to out doorstep.


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## Break the Silence

dabong1 said:


> Why not just have a vote and see what the people want?.......or does the "open communication" and "power of dialogue" not go there?



Vote??? There is already a state government chosen common mass of a Democratic country, and who are you to suggest this voting- UN able.

Mlas are doing what is to be expected from their side...And its sure the youth will understand this.


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## amit27

dabong1 said:


> Do you do the same india.......shoot all protesters.




If there is a curfew but some youths come out and throwing stones at people with guns what you think the outcome will be? does it take a rocket scientist to figure that out 

BTW I dont condone the actions done by the Indian paramilitary it was what u call excessive use of force but there was muslim riots in China and i never heard Pakistan make any comment when more people were shot dead by the Chinese army.

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## GreenStar

> If there is a curfew but some youths come out and throwing stones at people with guns what you think the outcome will be? does it take a rocket scientist to figure that out




Is India soo poor that it can't afford to buy water gun tanks.....or is the recent GDP figures are bunch of lies. that means India takes pleasure in killing Kashmiri's as it has not invested in this area that is cruciial.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> How do you Indians explain this......what type of goverment which preaches on democracy does this type of action. The boy is 8 and is that how you treat youngsters in your country........boy is India so backward.



You live in the UK. Right. Tell me what happens to the parents of a 8 year old kid if they allow him to jaywalk on a motorway and it results in him getting run over??


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## BATMAN

If it is leagal to punish Sadam Hussain for his war crimes than why not indian president be hanged for the horrific crimes against Muslims of Indian?

I wonder how indian MP's would negotiate to the mother who's children are missing? or a women who's husband is misisng? or a father who's daughter is missing?

































See how Kashmiris hold Pak flag high in face of shootings.
If Kashmiris respect our flag than it is our duty to mourn on their loss.


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## Break the Silence

Trust in talks for Kashmir solution: Young MPs to youth

Concerned over the situation in Kashmir, a group of 40 young members of Parliament cutting across party lines, appealed to the youth there to "exercise restraint" and have trust in dialogue for working out a solution on Thursday.

"We, as representatives of the people ourselves, believe that together with a positive frame of mind we can seek resolution only through open communication," the statement said.

"History teaches us that any resolution can only be brought about through dialogue and not not through violence," the MPs said in their 'Statement for the Youth of Jammu and Kashmir'.

"What has happened in the recent past has been very unfortunate and we are deeply concerned... we urge our young brothers and sisters in Jammu and Kashmir to exercise restraint and have trust in the power of dialogue," the statement said.

Releasing the statement in Parliament House complex, Congress MP Priya Dutt told the media that the MPs were deeply concerned over the loss of lives in the Valley.

Her party colleague Deepender Hooda said 40 MPs, cutting across party lines, have signed the appeal as they feel that as young people their future was good which applied equally for the youth of Jammu and Kashmir.

"In this century, when the whole world is looking towards India, and as we look to join the club of developed nations, we believe this dream can only be achieved all of us are equal stakeholders in it.

"Future belongs to our generation. We, the young parliamentarians, belonging to your generation, sincerely hope for a bright shared future for you and for all of us," the MPs said in the statement.

Trust in talks for Kashmir solution: MPs to youth: Rediff.com India News


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## karan.1970

dabong1 said:


> Only problem is that kashmir is not part of your territory but that you occupied it.
> 
> Please do tell tell us how many muslims where killed in the riots in china compared to the han chinese.



Territory is defined by occupancy..There is no single landlord in this world that assigns land to different countries..


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## karan.1970

dabong1 said:


> Do you do the same india.......shoot all protesters.



Beyond a level of escalation, yes... 4 protestors protesting against closure of their illegal shops were shot in New Delhi in 2008.


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## GreenStar

> You live in the UK. Right. Tell me what happens to the parents of a 8 year old kid if they allow him to jaywalk on a motorway and it results in him getting run over??



The Parent is held accountable and charged with Actus rea in failing his duty in protecting the child.....the sentences varies with each case......why?


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> Is India soo poor that it can't afford to buy water gun tanks.....or is the recent GDP figures are bunch of lies. that means India takes pleasure in killing Kashmiri's as it has not invested in this area that is cruciial.



2 words.. Bad management..


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## EjazR

BATMAN said:


> See how Kashmiris hold Pak flag high in face of shootings.
> If Kashmiris respect our flag than it is our duty to mourn on their loss.



We all mourn their loss no matter what flag they raise.

Btw, Im surprised you don't know how your flag looks like. I think you missed the white strip. This green flags with cresencts just has a muslim connatation to it and you will see them in dargas e.t.c around India and other parts of the world. So no need to mistake it as Pakistani flag.

Check this out for comparison

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## GreenStar

> Bad management.



That is a lousy excuse and if that is the case then you should not whine when people get angry when your soilders murder Kashmir people......as you your self have admitted that your goverment is irresponsbile that it does not bother to purchase water gun tanks when it clearly has the power to do so. You reap what you sow.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> The Parent is held accountable and charged with Actus rea in failing his duty in protecting the child.....the sentences varies with each case......why?



and what about the car driver who runs him over.. ?? May be a slap on the wrist and increased insurance..

That is the scenario here.. What the hell were his parents thinking sending him in a curfew zone with stone pelters ??

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## BATMAN

karan.1970 said:


> Territory is defined by occupancy..There is no single landlord in this world that assigns land to different countries..



And how do you define genocide of (Muslims by Hindu army) in occupied teritory?


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> That is a lousy excuse and if that is the case then you should not whine when people get angry when your soilders murder Kashmir people......as you your self have admitted that your goverment is irresponsbile that it does not bother to purchase water gun tanks when it clearly has the power to do so. You reap what you sow.



I have said it before.. Govt is to be blamed and Omar Abdullah will lose his position as the CM. But the protestors in a curfew zone are not entitled to a non lethal force if use of deadly force has been authorised and publicised. Despite that you go and attack the sec forces, then you reap what you sow, instantly...

Better the miscreants getting killed due to police action like here instead of innocents getting killed due to police inaction like in Karachi.. And I refer Karachi here not to say India is bad and so is Pakistan, but to say that if this sec action is not taken, the results for innocent civilians could be worse.. As we are seeing in Karachi. People are getting killed there too and in much larger numbers in a shorted span of time..


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## Tshering22

GreenStar said:


> That is a lousy excuse and if that is the case then you should not whine when people get angry when your soilders murder Kashmir people......as you your self have admitted that your goverment is irresponsbile that it does not bother to purchase water gun tanks when it clearly has the power to do so. You reap what you sow.


You're in UK stay there. First of all if your don't give a jackhorse about Pakistan then Kashmir becomes all the more non-existent topic for you. This is our territory and if you owe that we "occupied" it either you're too ashamed to call yourself a Pakistani origin person, or you simply want to enjoy our retaliatory comments against UK.

Most Indian members are here long enough to distinguish a normal non-Asian British from a Pakistani origin one. So stop playing this old joke.


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## sensenreason

dabong1 said:


> Do you do the same india.......shoot all protesters.



Kashmiri's have my sympathies and Indian forces should use rubber bullets, water cannons etc and not fire directly at he protestors...whatever be the provocation.

Also, the 7-8 lac Kashmiri muslims living in Kashmir valley and who are Anti-India...should be allowed to migrate to Pakistan or ***...

Kashmir problem resolved...after all its supposed to be about Human rights and not land.

The donations common Pakistani's make to JuD can be used to rehabilitate the Kashmiri's in Pakistan...it will also complete the migration of 47'...when millions migrated east to west and vice versa.....and this time it wont even be bloody.


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## karan.1970

^Ejaz.. Good catch my friend...


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## amit27

BATMAN said:


> And how do you define genocide of (Muslims by Hindu army) in occupied teritory?



Kashmir paramilitary has high &#37; of muslims where did you get this idea of a 'hindu army' when the Indian army is made up of all religions like hindus, sikhs, muslims, christians, buddhist?


Just because you consider it occupied does not mean we do thats why we call it j&k and we refer to *** as occupied.


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## GreenStar

> You're in UK stay there. First of all if your don't give a jackhorse about Pakistan then Kashmir becomes all the more non-existent topic for you. This is our territory and if you owe that we "occupied" it either you're too ashamed to call yourself a Pakistani origin person, or you simply want to enjoy our retaliatory comments against UK.
> 
> Most Indian members are here long enough to distinguish a normal non-Asian British from a Pakistani origin one. So stop playing this old joke.



I'm going to report you to the Mods, your the third Indian to say this...and it's getting tiring....I can talk what I like and when I like because this is a public forum.....if you don't like what I say don't respond to me....otherwise be silient.


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## third eye

whocares said:


> I am expecting stones being pelted at me by indian members(irony) but do you ever see a generation of Indians growing up, looking at kashmir and saying 'Naah, not worth the bother' ?
> 
> Discuss under what conditions this is possible, if at all.



Under NO conditions can this EVER be possible !!!

J&K is as much a part of India as any other region and so shall it stay.

Luckily national policies are not dictated by what ' generations ' feel but by national interests.

The only answer is for us all in the region to reconcile ourselves to our geography.


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## Tshering22

GreenStar said:


> I'm going to report you to the Mods, your the third Indian to say this...and it's getting tiring....I can talk what I like and when I like because this is a public forum.....if you don't like what I say don't respond to me....otherwise be silient.


Go ahead. Report me. How many Indians do you see meddling in IRA and UK's internal affairs. As if that's a threat.


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## Tshering22

I am laughing at the glee that how many threads are being opened on the same topic of protest in our country! . Really appreciate the tender love and concern our dear neighbours are showing to India.


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## indushek

I don't think these people are active as much on that floods thread than on this. My god their romance with India and Kashmir will never end.


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## GreenStar

> Go ahead. Report me. How many Indians do you see meddling in IRA and UK's internal affairs. As if that's a threat.



What are you doing in a public forum if you can't take someone criticizing your goverement.......do you normally do this tamptrum in real life.


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## karan.1970

BATMAN said:


> And how do you define genocide of (Muslims by Hindu army) in occupied teritory?



Am not aware of any genocide in the Indian subcontinent post the genocide of muslim innocents of East Pakistan by muslim army of West Pakistan. But thats between Pakistan and Bangladesh and its not my place to comment on that.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

sensenreason said:


> Kashmiri's have my sympathies and Indian forces should use rubber bullets, water cannons etc and not fire directly at he protestors...whatever be the provocation.



still doesnt solve any outstanding issue, just exacerbates it (as we are clearly seeing)




> Also, the 7-8 lac Kashmiri muslims living in Kashmir valley and who are Anti-India...should be allowed to migrate to Pakistan or ***...



i think you are unfamiliar with the conflict...i suggest you read more about it




> Kashmir problem resolved...after all its supposed to be about Human rights and not land.



land dispute in which the people of the disputed land are subjected to gross human rights violations ---primarily (if not entirely) on the indian occupied side

(as we are clearly seeing)




> The donations common Pakistani's make to JuD can be used to rehabilitate the Kashmiri's in Pakistan....



you are mistaken if you think JuD is the only pro-Kashmiri group. JuD carries political baggage, sometimes much to peoples' discomfort.

That said, there are many genuinely charity-oriented groups which also highlight the human rights abuses caused by your forces.....and yes, support to those will surely continue.



> it will also complete the migration of 47'...when millions migrated east to west and vice versa.....and this time it wont even be bloody



it's a land dispute


by the way, a similar phenomenon did take place in hyderabad deccan when it officially became part of hindustan (through force)....many people did migrate to what was already Pakistan simply because of their political views, and the repression they would face if they remained behind


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## amit27

GreenStar said:


> What are you doing in a public forum if you can't take someone criticizing your goverement.......do you normally do this tamptrum in real life.



Off topic your level of english is very poor so many spelling mistakes i can see.


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## GreenStar

> Off topic your level of english is very poor so many spelling mistakes i can see



So what is your point do you want a gold star meddle.....what has my level of english got to do with the topic......are all Indian's like that...when you can't handle criticism you use personal attacks.


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## Hulk

water guns are used but it will be foolish to assume they will be everywhere. Also rubber bullets were used and one person got killed by rubber bullet. The incident started with one child getting killed by a tear gas shell and any person with common sense can understand tear gas is not meant to kill. Then those people who started protest were surely paid since it was not an atrocity that time.

Now IMO blame goes to people who started it, which is clearly Kashmir paid agents. Kashmir's also have to be blamed since they do not use their brain. 

Stop violet protest and their should be no killings plain and simple.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

a.) they arent ''paid agents''

b.) they have no other way to channel their anger and frustration; you have sowed the grounds for these realities


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## amit27

GreenStar said:


> So what is your point do you want a gold star meddle.....what has my level of english got to do with the topic......are all Indian's like that...when you can't handle criticism you use personal attacks.




meddle  you make me laugh I suggest you back to school man for your own benefit im British born like you so im giving you this advice its not a personal attack lol


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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> a.) they arent ''paid agents''
> 
> b.) they have no other way to channel their anger and frustration; you have sowed the grounds for these realities



And we will reap it .. Dont lose sleep over it..


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## valkyr_96

maybe im wrong.....but the flag is not completely unrolled......


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## Abu Zolfiqar

karan.1970 said:


> And we will reap it .. Dont lose sleep over it..



seems that further grounds are being sowed.

reaping means blaming ISI agency and labelling all Kashmiri youth terrorists

failed strategy which is bound for further disaster


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## jha

nitesh28 said:


> persnally i would think *kashmir is not worth it.
> *
> let them go and do whatever they want.
> 
> the only apprehension i have is that this decision will bring fanatic taliban to out doorstep.



Well what you personally think is totally wrong...Kashmir is worth every dime being spent and every life being martyred...

Now from the above you would have concluded that I am just in nationalist mood..I am not..
The worth of any place is determined by its strategic importance which is further determined by location of the place...
Giving Kashmir is like giving lifeline of Jammu and then Himachal and then delhi to them..The valley of kashmir is even now the biggest hurdle in the way of enemy...
Once you forgo the of height then in case of our interesting neighborhood , you give them free hand...
Last time they were in such position we had to see our over 500 soldiers loosing lives....
Every other day you will find some fanatic thinking that it was the time to start GHAZWA-E-HIND and you will find Delhi,Mumbai turning into KARACHI...
Hell they are not sparing their own brothers in the name of religion , how will they loose this golden opportunity of punishing HANOOD..
And thats why..Come this generation or, any generation you will find KASHMIR an intact part of BHARAT/ARYAWARTA...

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## sensenreason

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> still doesnt solve any outstanding issue, just exacerbates it (as we are clearly seeing)
> 
> i think you are unfamiliar with the conflict...i suggest you read more about it
> 
> land dispute in which the people of the disputed land are subjected to gross human rights violations ---primarily (if not entirely) on the indian occupied side
> 
> (as we are clearly seeing)
> 
> you are mistaken if you think JuD is the only pro-Kashmiri group. JuD carries political baggage, sometimes much to peoples' discomfort.
> 
> That said, there are many genuinely charity-oriented groups which also highlight the human rights abuses caused by your forces.....and yes, support to those will surely continue.
> 
> it's a land dispute
> 
> by the way, a similar phenomenon did take place in hyderabad deccan when it officially became part of hindustan (through force)....many people did migrate to what was already Pakistan simply because of their political views, and the repression they would face if they remained behind



Im not unaware of the history...If its a land dispute then I dont see it ending to Kashmiri's satisfaction....India giving away Kashmir the 'land'...is a non-starter...at best small part of the Valley in and around Srinagar might get some sort of autonomy...

Unless there is something substantial on the table in return for India giving away Kashmir...i cant think of any such trading item..(and one that wont get your goat)...like Afghanistan, Sindh..etc...money?, Pakistan's nuclear arsenal...!

Thats why I suggested the people who have a problem with India can move where they will be happier...honestly...there is no win-win solution otherwise.


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## GreenStar

> meddle you make me laugh I suggest you back to school man for your own benefit im British born like you so im giving you this advice its not a personal attack lol



What I do in my life is up to me.....I don't want your advice thankyou very much. The only reason why there is spelling mistakes is because I write fast, and I don't bother to check them.


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## karan.1970

valkyr_96 said:


> maybe im wrong.....but the flag is not completely unrolled......



Then you would have seen the white color rolled up on the pole....

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## Amit12

dabong1 said:


> Why not just have a vote and see what the people want?.......or does the "open communication" and "power of dialogue" not go there?
> 
> *We urge our young brothers and sisters in J&K to exercise restraint and have trust in power of dialogue." *
> 
> Why give this piece of advice to the indian army and govt..........its your forces what are killing the people.



why you giving that advice to India just give that advice to your own government for bluchistan first


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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> seems that further grounds are being sowed.
> 
> reaping means blaming ISI agency and labelling all Kashmiri youth terrorists
> 
> failed strategy which is bound for further disaster



Those must be the reports in the Pakistani papers. I dont see that being reported in India.. Give it 72 hours and you will see the strategy...


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## GreenStar

> Sure you can criticize India but the bad deal is that you will have to criticize your beloved Pakistan too....that too in same breath ..
> just to show that you are neutral or you could adopt the official British stand on Pakistan (and you know what that is)



Go to specsavers and get some glasses, this thread is about India murdering innocent Kashmiri's.......not Pakistan. If you want to get Pakistan into the picture then make another thread.


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## GreenStar

> so hiding behind foreign flag is not always advantageous.



Well I have a British passport, was born in England...so was my dad so how am I hiding behind a foreign flag.....do me a favour and please get some glasses as this thread is not about me......it's about Kashmir.


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## Hulk

Only Paid agents can plan to create anti India protest out of accident. That is why I am labeling them. A report suggested that most of the time the parents understand it is an accident and do not want to protest, but some agents create the atmosphere of protest. Also why after Friday prayers some people start stone pelting without issue? Whenever peace comes to valley some paid agents does not like it and forcefully create protest. It is common sense that if few people give inflamatory speechs common man can fall for it. Every story can be twisted for good and bad and ruling side always has the disadvantage.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

GreenStar said:


> Go to specsavers and get some glasses, this thread is about India murdering innocent Kashmiri's.......not Pakistan.* If you want to get Pakistan into the picture* then make another thread.



In fact I don't ..I just wan't to say l*ook at your own self..look what you have done on past and are still doing before pointing towards India*..*because those to criticize others without first rectifying their own faults are known as hypocrites and nobody care what hypocrites have to say*...and that is why I never create threads criticizing Pakistan.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

sensenreason said:


> Im not unaware of the history...If its a land dispute then I dont see it ending to Kashmiri's satisfaction....India giving away Kashmir the 'land'...is a non-starter...at best small part of the Valley in and around Srinagar might get some sort of autonomy...
> 
> Unless there is something substantial on the table in return for India giving away Kashmir...i cant think of any such trading item..(and one that wont get your goat)...like Afghanistan, Sindh..etc...money?, Pakistan's nuclear arsenal...!
> 
> Thats why I suggested the people who have a problem with India can move where they will be happier...honestly...there is no win-win solution otherwise.




I have a great idea! Hold a plebicite, let the people decide their fates; and then peace may prevail!

WoW! Sounds like a great ''trade'' to me


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## Abu Zolfiqar

karan.1970 said:


> Those must be the reports in the Pakistani papers. I dont see that being reported in India..



No, I am basing it off feedback left off by your fellow comrades on this forum; as well as elements in your establishment (even Krishna if I'm not mistaken) who believe that ISI is sending youth to Kashmir to throw stones and protest. 




> Give it 72 hours and you will see the strategy...



Ok!


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## valkyr_96

karan.1970 said:


> Then you would have seen the white color rolled up on the pole....



there is some green before the the white part starts and the flag is also quite large..... why would ppl wave a green crescent flag even for religious reasons
on a lighter note if the flag is really all green, kudos to whoever found that out


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## GreenStar

> Well are you suggesting you have no relation to Pakistan ..whatsoever??
> 
> If then, your opinion is seriously biased.
> 
> Even I am an American resident but then I don't put US flag..because I am here to defend my country ..which is India.



I am not going to reply to you, as you seem to get personal...and not talk about the issue, as a result I will not speak, as the moderator can take care of you.


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## amit27

Kashmir is very sacred land for many hindus, sikhs and buddhist it is mentioned in numerous holy books and we all know the connection of Lord Shiva with Kashmir. 

Giving up Kashmir and shrines like Amarnath is not a option for Indians, the only solution is what Musharraf and Vajpayee had in the blueprint to make borders irrelevent so there is a free movement of goods and people between Pakistani side and Indian side of Kashmir.


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## Flayre

billi said:


> as claimed by you, no one can live for 2-3 years and then die.
> Assume they died in pak after india handed them over. so you are saying they did mauj-masti for 2-3 yrs and then died? WAH!!



No, we are saying that they died because of kidney, liver and other bodily failures due to being fed crushed glass in their breads, due to being fed metal dust in their waters, and due to being fed some of the most mal-nutritious food that the Indian government could find. 

Do not even try to dispute this. I have primary sources.


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## Flayre

As for the future of Kashmir? I personally liked Bezerk's Scenario 7: The Chenab formula.



Bezerk said:


> Scenario 7
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> The Chenab formula*
> 
> This plan, first suggested in the 1960s, would see Kashmir divided along the line of the River Chenab. This would give the vast majority of land to Pakistan and, as such, a clear victory in its longstanding dispute with India. The entire valley with its Muslim majority population would be brought within Pakistan's borders, as well as the majority Muslim areas of Jammu.



I think it's the best way to go because the idea of a free and independent Kashmir sounds quite impossible. Works best if Pakistan gets the Muslim majority parts and India keeps the rest. Then free immigration be opened so that the minority religions in Pakistani Kashmir can move out into India and Muslims from Indian Kashmir can move into Pakistan.

==========================

At OP, I think it'll be quite a few generations from today. But it'll happen someday.


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## karan.1970

nitesh28 said:


> persnally i would think kashmir is not worth it.
> 
> let them go and do whatever they want.
> 
> the only apprehension i have is that this decision will bring fanatic taliban to out doorstep.



worth and sovreignity of your country should not be mentioned in the same breath


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## amit27

Kashmiri hindus want their own homeland any future settlement will have to take into account the views from 'all' kashmiri people.


Panun Kashmir: A Homeland for Kashmiri Pandits


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## Peshwa

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> by the way, *a similar phenomenon did take place in hyderabad deccan when it officially became part of hindustan (through force)....*many people did migrate to what was already Pakistan simply because of their political views, and the repression they would face if they remained behind



Right....and a similar phenomenon did take place in '47 when Pakistan tried to take Kashmir by force against the wishes of the Kashmiri king....retained P-O-K which is where Kashmiris with affinity for Pakistan reside....

Difference is, Pakistan
a) was unsuccessful in securing entire Kashmir....not our fault for your gross understimation of our ability
b) Did not come to the rescue of the Hyderabadi King....again...not our fault....a decision overriden by Mountbatten....

Point is....both India and Pakistan have acted hypocritically.....India in the case of Hyderabad....and Pakistan with Kashmir....
If we came out on top, should we feel sorry about it?

Pakistan has a part of Kashmir....all those from the Indian side who want to be Pakistani....can move there....call it a second partition....
we all have had to make sacrifices wrt to our ancestral homes etc.....Kashmiris are no special....They will have to learn to live with it....

But lets be honest....."To the victor belong the spoils"..
Not like we see Pakistan returning areas/points captured during Kargil back to India now do we?...Not like any actions taken by Pakistan wrt Kashmir have been done so with the active desicion of all Kashmiris.....

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## Peshwa

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I have a great idea! Hold a plebicite, let the people decide their fates; and then peace may prevail!
> 
> WoW! Sounds like a great ''trade'' to me



Better Idea.....Second Partion based on current LOC status quo....

No one compromises....Kashmiris wanting to move to Pakistan can still experience Kashmir in "Azadi"....

The Indians stay in India....

"WoW! Sounds like a great ''trade'' to me"

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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> No, I am basing it off feedback left off by your fellow comrades on this forum; as well as elements in your establishment (even Krishna if I'm not mistaken) who believe that ISI is sending youth to Kashmir to throw stones and protest.



About members on the forum.. by that definition Pakistan wants a militarty dictatorship as a lot of members on this forum have been asking for it

And there is difference between ISI encouraging such incidents by including militant elements within the protesting crowds vs the complete crowd consisting of ISI sponsored people (which you were suggesting)


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## SONOFAGUN

Honestly........I do not see this happening at all. We have seen worst during Punjab insurgency and have come out stronger and victorious.....If Punjab problem can be resolved (ask any older gerenation about the situation in Punjab than), there is no way any Indian politician or bureaucrat will ever let Kashmir go any other way....infact to my knowledge, there are palns in offing to get Pakistani Occupied Kashmir back in the fold....

Within a decade you will find many Indian Muslim taking control of country's administartion, defence, intelligence and even becoming powerful PRIME MINISTERS...........even if hypothetically speaking Hindus want Kashmir severed, Indian Muslims will not let this happen at all.


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## anurag_singh

Flayre said:


> As for the future of Kashmir? I personally liked Bezerk's Scenario 7: The Chenab formula.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's the best way to go because the idea of a free and independent Kashmir sounds quite impossible. Works best if Pakistan gets the Muslim majority parts and India keeps the rest. Then free immigration be opened so that the minority religions in Pakistani Kashmir can move out into India and Muslims from Indian Kashmir can move into Pakistan.
> 
> ==========================
> 
> At OP, I think it'll be quite a few generations from today. But it'll happen someday.



If you want transfer of population they why not complete transfer?
why not between whole India and Pak?


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## Justin Joseph

*How pathetic???? These are not murders but in every part of world police forced to use force and fire when mob go out of control.*

*In Kashmir some puppet goes inside crowd and fire at police and destroy ambulances carrying patients or burning schools or rail way station or thrashing innocent civilians or police.

In Pakistan police also do it, so what's wrong or extra ordinary when police in India do it.*


*Police kill BNP worker during Quetta protest*

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


*Its common practice as the firing is the last resort to save people and property.*

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## Abu Zolfiqar

karan.1970 said:


> About members on the forum.. by that definition Pakistan wants a militarty dictatorship as a lot of members on this forum have been asking for it



my eyes lit up when i read this.....

lets do a poll and then see. I can guarantee you that majority here would not want that. Whether they are civilians, or servicemen/women



> And there is difference between ISI encouraging such incidents by including militant elements within the protesting crowds



nope. Purely Kashmiri phenomenon. Nothing to do with ISI





> vs the complete crowd consisting of ISI sponsored people (which you were suggesting)



nope again; your comrades were suggesting it


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## karan.1970

anurag_singh said:


> If you want transfer of population they why not complete transfer?
> why not between whole India and Pak?



Because that is not acceptable to Indians. Indian Muslims are as much Indian as you and I. Dont get lured into a religious conflict here. The issue is India and Pakistan. Not Hindu and Muslim

Pakistanis can try and play the muslim card till cows come home. Not going to work here..

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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> my eyes lit up when i read this.....
> 
> lets do a poll and then see. I can guarantee you that majority here would not want that. Whether they are civilians, or servicemen/women


Do a similar poll here on "labelling all Kashmiri youth terrorists" and I can gaurantee you that 90% wont label ALL Kashmiri youth as terrorists. Just like you have a minority wanting Kayani to overthrow the govt, you have a minority with this view here..



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> nope. Purely Kashmiri phenomenon. Nothing to do with ISI



You are entitled to your view, no matter how untrue (or misguided) and I am to mine..





Abu Zolfiqar said:


> nope again; your comrades were suggesting it



Where?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

karan.1970 said:


> Do a similar poll here on "labelling all Kashmiri youth terrorists" and I can gaurantee you that 90&#37; wont label ALL Kashmiri youth as terrorists. Just like you have a minority wanting Kayani to overthrow the govt, you have a minority with this view here..



moot point; Gen. Kayani saab himself has no such wishes or ambitions.

as for Kashmiri youth; when frustration and anger build up, then of course one day the ''kettle'' will burst from excess pressure




> You are entitled to your view, no matter how untrue (or misguided) and I am to mine..



why is my view misguided? I am right until you can prove me wrong. You could shoot back and say the same to me; except even you have politicians rubbishing any rumours that ISI has anything to do with a purely Kashmiri phenomenon.




> Where?



o yaara common now!! you've been on this forum long enough; just browse through this thread or the 4-5+ other threads encompassing the Kashmir situation

I wont make the mistake of thinking PDF or the ''rhat-shack'' are representative of all sentiments on the actual ground. Many people have mixed views. 

but nevertheless, some of the things your comrades are saying about Kashmiris are unwarranted......at least dont have the nerve to call it ''integral part of hindustan'' because this is not the reality


enough with bringing up Baluchistan or Nagaland at this time.


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## Awesome

From a personal blog:

Kashtastrophe | Asim Aquil &#8211; Defence.pk blogger

Just because the world has decided to ignore Kashmir and give India a free hand in its tyranny, oppression and terrorism against the Kashmiris, it doesnt mean their struggle for independence has faded away. Kashmiris are showing the entire world that they are not part of India, they want freedom, they are ready to beat up every soldier India has sent there  but is the world working too hard to look the other way?

Kashmiris have sucessfully pierced the Indian slogan of All is well and replaced with the more prominent Go to Hell by their constant protesting in Kashmir for several months now. The pictures of Indian security forces (local police, border patrol and even the Army regulars) are all being slapped around by locals; there are scores of pictures of old grandmas whacking away at the Indians in protest. One really has to wonder, where are the likes of the NY Times, Washington Post, the Guardian, the Independent and many others who are on a constant tirade against Pakistan over its role in supporting/exporting/aiding/manipulating the Taliban but only passing references to the core issue in South Asia.

India doesnt like the countries (or worse, businesses like newspapers) who highlight the Kashmir issue for what it is but love those target its enemies (also business  like newspapers). For NYTimes a rape instigated by a Shariat Court in Pakistan is close to the end of the world  but thousands of rapes in Kashmir by the Indian army  men in uniform (arguably ordered to rape)  doesnt even deserve questioning India over and over about what its doing in Kashmir.

Im not belittling the rape in Pakistan, I too feel that is of dire consequences but for genuine reasons to uplift of the status of women in Pakistan  not India appeasement.

When India insists Kashmir is an internal matter, why dont these news agencies quip up a question Why are your people so sick of you? Do they remain your people when they are all saying they are not? The right of self-determination is something the UN granted Kashmir, India signed on it, Pakistan signed on it.

The western world has been nitpicking on everything Pakistan on issues that should not be larger than the oppression of millions of people, yet the same enthusiasm is missing for Kashmir.

My message to the western world is, man up please. Be fair and give the same respect to our issues that you demand from us. Otherwise youre a party to Indias monstrosity in Kashmir  youre a rapist too.

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## Peshwa

anurag_singh said:


> If you want transfer of population they why not complete transfer?
> why not between whole India and Pak?



If you're so easily ready to give up Indian Muslims....are you also ready to give up the achievements India has made thanks to its Muslim citizens?

Are u willing to give up the missile technology that India boasts of? Are u willing to give up the sacrifice of Abdul Hamid in defending Kashmir for India?
Are u willing to give up Wipro and Azim Premji that have helped India become an IT and tech powerhouse and contribute to the rise of the Indian economy?
Should all the Khans move out of Bollywood?
Most importantly....should we give up Katrina Kaif....LOL!!...jk


You get my point....Indian muslims are our brothers in every regard....Do remember India comes first!

Please dont embarass us by making such statements......We see a lot of this from the other side of the border with the likes of Omar19xx and his ilk......
We are much better than that.....

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## LaBong

Not as as long as peoples' vote depends on Kashmir issue. Till then jobs and inflation are the things that matter.


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## anurag_singh

Peshwa said:


> If you're so easily ready to give up Indian Muslims....are you also ready to give up the achievements India has made thanks to its Muslim citizens?
> 
> Are u willing to give up the missile technology that India boasts of? Are u willing to give up the sacrifice of Abdul Hamid in defending Kashmir for India?
> Are u willing to give up Wipro and Azim Premji that have helped India become an IT and tech powerhouse and contribute to the rise of the Indian economy?
> Should all the Khans move out of Bollywood?
> Most importantly....should we give up Katrina Kaif....LOL!!...jk
> 
> 
> You get my point....Indian muslims are our brothers in every regard....Do remember India comes first!
> 
> Please dont embarass us by making such statements......We see a lot of this from the other side of the border with the likes of Omar19xx and his ilk......
> We are much better than that.....



Where I am saying about transfer of Indian Muslims. I am just asking to him that why transfer of kashmiri population on the basis of religion. If religion is the basis then why it is not applicable for whole population.


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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> moot point; Gen. Kayani saab himself has no such wishes or ambitions.



Irrelavent since Kayani's motives are not in question here(though neither of us can claim to know those). We were talking about the thought process of some PDF members and how that's not the representative of the national mindset of either Pakistan or India.





Abu Zolfiqar said:


> as for Kashmiri youth; when frustration and anger build up, then of course one day the ''kettle'' will burst from excess pressure


And that happens in many parts of the country (both your and mine). We will organize a new kettle...






Abu Zolfiqar said:


> why is my view misguided? I am right until you can prove me wrong. You could shoot back and say the same to me; except even you have politicians rubbishing any rumours that ISI has anything to do with a purely Kashmiri phenomenon.


Exactly. I can shoot back the same as I said, you are entitled to your view and I am to mine. Just like some politicians are rubbishing this claim, some are supporting it. So neither or us can prove each other wrong. So I am not going to try




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> o yaara common now!! you've been on this forum long enough; just browse through this thread or the 4-5+ other threads encompassing the Kashmir situation
> 
> I wont make the mistake of thinking PDF or the ''rhat-shack'' are representative of all sentiments on the actual ground. Many people have mixed views.
> 
> but nevertheless, some of the things your comrades are saying about Kashmiris are unwarranted......




And Thats right. If some misguided minority in India or on this forum terms all Kashmiris as terrorists, then they are idiots. However, terrorist or not, if a citizen during curfew comes out and tries to throw rocks at the sec officers, he should plan for the worst. If he doesnt get killed in this foolish endevour, its good and nice, but he cant feel entitled to get away with it.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> at least dont have the nerve to call it ''integral part of hindustan'' because this is not the reality
> 
> 
> enough with bringing up Baluchistan or Nagaland at this time.



Oh I will have much more nerve than that. I will say its an integral part of India and openly challenge anyone to try and take it away..

Balochistan is your problem and Nagaland is ours. Both are outdated so I dont want to go there at all. The current hot topic in Pakistan seems to be Sindh (Karachi) where more than double the number of people have died in 3 days than what have died in Kashmir in over 3 weeks...But thats your problem not India's and we have no business interjecting in your internal affair..


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## gurjot

asim bhai,world dont see india as they used to c.example like british pm.in whole world kashmir is seen as an problem with pakistan.and 4 pakistan world looks 4 laden,ttp,afgh-pak etc.india is showing dollars etc.so *jiski laathi uski bhains.*

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## forcetrip

gurjot said:


> asim bhai,world dont see india as they used to c.example like british pm.in whole world kashmir is seen as an problem with pakistan.and 4 pakistan world looks 4 laden,ttp,afgh-pak etc.india is showing dollars etc.so *jiski laathi uski bhains.*



The unfortunate truth .. When we tire of talking .. we might get together as a country and get it back on track .. and then maybe we might not be heard as people who forgot to take their medication.


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## SONOFAGUN

..........think, why the world is silent on Kashmir.......they know the truth and they know that India is a multi cultural, secular, free democracy society...and Pakistan does not have any of these virtues. Western media is also not brain washed and fed lies 24X7X365 days. They know what a nursery kid is taught in Pakistan and which country is a cancer to the world.....As an Indian I have always found western media going too sof on Pakistan. It should have been bracketed with N. Korea / Sudan.........long back.

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## Peshwa

anurag_singh said:


> Where I am saying about transfer of Indian Muslims. I am just asking to him that why transfer of kashmiri population on the basis of religion. *If religion is the basis then why it is not applicable for whole population.*



Because Pakistan is a state based on religion...NOT India...Our country and position in the world becomes stronger in our current state and Muslims only add to our strenghth....

But maybe Im unclear on your POV....are you saying that Pak should accept all Kashmiris...whether Hindus or Muslims?
Can you explain wat u mean please?


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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> From a personal blog:
> 
> Kashtastrophe | Asim Aquil  Defence.pk blogger
> 
> The pictures of Indian security forces (local police, border patrol and even the Army regulars) are all being slapped around by locals; there are scores of pictures of old grandmas whacking away at the Indians in protest.



This line in your blog is exactly the reason why your claim of blanket atrocities committed by Indian security forces falls flat in front of the world and why the likes of publications that you mentioned dont buy into the BS being paddled by Kashmiri separatists and Pakistan. Think about it...Which tyrannical occupation force in the history has allowed this to happen to their occupying soldiers..??

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## karan.1970

anurag_singh said:


> Where I am saying about transfer of Indian Muslims. I am just asking to him that why transfer of kashmiri population on the basis of religion. If religion is the basis then why it is not applicable for whole population.



It is not applicable for any part of Indian population.. Kashmir included...


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## DESERT FIGHTER

son of a .... watch ur mouth... world media is just b.s... does it support kashmir?no iraq? no palastine ? no...

B.S...more then 47 have been killed by indian occupiers in recent weeks nd indians here r lyin even encouraging more use of force nd violence..shamefully pathetic.


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## anurag_singh

Peshwa said:


> Because Pakistan is a state based on religion...NOT India...Our country and position in the world becomes stronger in our current state and Muslims only add to our strenghth....
> 
> But maybe Im unclear on your POV....are you saying that Pak should accept all Kashmiris...whether Hindus or Muslims?
> Can you explain wat u mean please?



I am saying that why pakistanis acts like hypocrites. They demand kashmir on the basis of religion and talk about population transfer but they will not be ready to apply same for entire population.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

karan.1970 said:


> And Thats right. If some misguided minority in India or on this forum terms all Kashmiris as terrorists, then they are idiots. However, terrorist or not, if a citizen during curfew comes out and tries to throw rocks at the sec officers, he should plan for the worst. If he doesnt get killed in this foolish endevour, its good and nice, but he cant feel entitled to get away with it.



''why'' ???

seriously, WHY?




> Oh I will have much more nerve than that. I will say its an integral part of India and openly challenge anyone to try and take it away..



its disputed territory




> The current hot topic in Pakistan seems to be Sindh (Karachi) where more than double the number of people have died in 3 days than what have died in Kashmir in over 3 weeks...But thats your problem not India's and we have no business interjecting in your internal affair..



off topic; Karachi isnt disputed territory. Those are political conflicts. Embarassing to say the least, that it is going down in our nation's financial capital!!! It brings me and others great shame and grief. 

At the same time, I (we) arent discussing violence and rapes that are going on right now in your country. 

We are talking about Kashmir. And it is very much so our business. You know we wont remain silent on the issue, so why not cooperate and treat it as disputed territory and an outstanding issue


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## Peshwa

anurag_singh said:


> I am saying that why pakistanis acts like hypocrites. They demand kashmir on the basis of religion and talk about population transfer *but they will not be ready to apply same for entire population*.



Well maybe that stems from the shock they received when they realized that the concept of a 2 nation theory based on religious segregation fell flat when a significant population of Muslims decided to stay back in India....followed by a failed operation Gibraltar that was the final nail on the coffin....Never could they imagine that nationalism and patriotism in India (whether for Hindus or Muslims) is more powerful than religious affinity!!

Anyways....I dont think you should bring up the highlighted my friend....Its an insult to Indian Muslims thats all....

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Jana said:


> heheheh ya alaka dwee kho plar hum badal karo khpal



hawwwwww 

aao aghe khpal plar badal ko azaka che da agha dupara asaan wo...saba, agha ba khpla mor ''naxal'' k badala ki!


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## karan.1970

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> B.S...more then 47 have been killed by indian occupiers in recent weeks nd indians here r lyin even encouraging more use of force nd violence..shamefully pathetic.



Almost double than this number have been killed in Karachi in 3 days. That doesnt make the whole Karachi city as pathetic or all political parties as criminals. Dont over generalize. 

We all know the reason behind the uproar due to the events in Kashmir, but thats not gonna work.. It is a law and order issue and will get handled as such. All of us can wear out our keyboards here, but hey, this is not 1971.. Dont expect it to turn out that way.

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## whocares

whats with the cryptography dudes?

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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> ''why'' ???
> 
> seriously, WHY?


Because he cant. The LEO is authorised to use deadly force when threatened and its same anywhere in the world. 




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> its disputed territory


so?



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> off topic; Karachi isnt disputed territory. Those are political conflicts. Embarassing to say the least, that it is going down in our nation's financial capital!!! It brings me and others great shame and grief.
> 
> At the same time, I (we) arent discussing violence and rapes that are going on right now in your country.
> 
> We are talking about Kashmir. And it is very much so our business. You know we wont remain silent on the issue, so why not cooperate and treat it as disputed territory and an outstanding issue



Absolutely your issue just like Nagaland is ours.. Dont even want to sermonize on why and how of that..

Kashmir is not your business till the time you can force India to make it your business. It's a part of our country, managed (not very well at this time) by a govt elected by its residents thru the constitutional process of India, governed by the laws of IPC of India and unless that changes, you can chose not to stay silent, but thats not gonna change anything. 

I understand that you consider it your business and disputed territory and so on, but hey, that doesnt change anything on the ground. Just like we consider ISI as a supporter of terrorists , but that doesnt make any difference to Pakistan. 

And just like you rubbish all statements that implicate Pakistan on terrorism, we rubbish all resolutions that call Kashmir as disputed. 

At the end of the day, anyone can say anything about a country, but unless that anyone has the means and might to enforce that, its just words..

Remember the adage about sticks and stones..and words.??

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## Abu Zolfiqar

karan.1970 said:


> Because he cant. The LEO is authorised to use deadly force when threatened and its same anywhere in the world.



''why''

--> why deny the roots and cause of anger




> so?



euuff...







> Kashmir is not your business till the time you can force India to make it your business.



it's like telling a Palestinian --- mind your own business until you can militarily confront israilys

i think Pakistan needs to do a better job of bringing the issue to the worlds attention, since it seems that is the only language you people understand

at least don't disservice me or yourselves by saying ''worlds largest democracy'' and other bullcrap like that



> It's a part of our country, managed (not very well at this time) by a govt elected by its residents thru the constitutional process of India, governed by the laws of IPC of India and unless that changes, you can chose not to stay silent, but thats not gonna change anything.



yes, writ of state very established there i see






> I understand that you consider it your business and disputed territory and so on, but hey, that doesnt change anything on the ground.



nothing has changed.....Kashmiris in ioK have no affinity to hindustan (the occupying force)



> Just like we consider ISI as a supporter of terrorists , but that doesnt make any difference to Pakistan.



yeah but hindustanys just say it blindly.....it isnt your fault, your media can tell you anything and you'll believe it. 

top military and intel officials worldwide commend our intelligence agencies for being invaluable in the fight against terrorism

to me, that's all that matters. Many politicians worldwide are in favour of putting pressure on all stakeholders to solve Kashmir crisis. Some prefer to remain mute. 

You cant change my opinion; I cant change yours. But I do suggest you look at ground realities, at least one day when you are grown up and ready to accept them.



> And just like you rubbish all statements that implicate Pakistan on terrorism, we rubbish all resolutions that call Kashmir as disputed.



i rubbish all statements that implicate Pakistan with exporting terrorism....i dont disagree that there are elements inside Pakistan (yes, non-state actors) who are willing to engage in terrorist activity. But when we do have the intel, we act on them. 

our establishment even covertly allows drone hits on terror targets.....is that not enough proof to rubbish your claim?

lets not deviate too far now from truth and reality vs. dreams and media created fiction 



> At the end of the day, anyone can say anything about a country, but unless that anyone has the means and might to enforce that, its just words..



yes. Pakistan does not have the needs (forget means for a second) to support stone-throwing ''terrorists'' in Kashmir....

the uprising there is a purely Kashmiri phenomenon..




> Remember the adage about sticks and stones..and words.??



Sticks and stones may break some bones, whilst latest indiscriminate
firing by CPRF has just rendered 2 more shabab lifeless....


http://www.kmsnews.org/news/police-martyr-two-more-innocent-youth-ihk


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## eric_cartman

Seeing the pictures and videos of people throwing stones at security force, they don't have a thing of freedom fighters. The courage it takes to free a state cannot be hidden behind those mask. They don't have the thing which Bhagat Singh, Chandersheker Azad and Faziullah Khan had.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

eric_cartman said:


> Seeing the pictures and videos of people throwing stones at security force, they don't have a thing of freedom fighters. The courage it takes to free a state cannot be hidden behind those mask. They don't have the thing which Bhagat Singh, Chandersheker Azad and Faziullah Khan had.



shut it, FAT-***!!!!!

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## eric_cartman

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> shut it, FAT-***!!!!!



 Think Tank


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## dabong1

Amit12 said:


> why you giving that advice to India just give that advice to your own government for bluchistan first



Well we might as well start with Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram, Nagaland, and Tripura and then move onto punjab, tamil nadu ect.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

(i like southpark)

thanks to Bittorrent, i can download full seaons


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

dabong1 said:


> Well we might as well start with Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram, Nagaland, and Tripura and then move onto punjab, tamil nadu ect.



*before destroying India..... It would be better if you save your country first..have not you noticed..what is happening these days? *

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## eric_cartman

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> (i like southpark)
> 
> thanks to Bittorrent, i can download full seaons



No need to wait, if you have high speed internet

South Park Studios


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## Abu Zolfiqar

the power of information!

thanks, fatty!


Now go eat your cheesy puffs.


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## dabong1

amit27 said:


> If there is a curfew but some youths come out and throwing stones at people with guns what you think the outcome will be? does it take a rocket scientist to figure that out



I think theres things called "water tanks" and "rubber bullets" and "riot police" that most civilised nations use when being attacked by stone throwers.



amit27 said:


> BTW I dont condone the actions done by the Indian paramilitary it was what u call excessive use of force but there was muslim riots in China and i never heard Pakistan make any comment when more people were shot dead by the Chinese army.



Becauce as pointed out before the numbers are small compared to how many kashmirirs have been murdered by the indian forces.

137 Han Chinese and 46 minority Uighurs were killed in china riots
Han Chinese emerge as the main victims as Urumqi riots death toll rises - Times Online

You only have two more people to murder and you beat the number of muslims killed compared to the riots in China.
And lets not forget in china there where riots and the vast majoirty killed where by rioters and not by soliders like in kashmir.
Lets not even go into comparing the number of muslims killed in china to that of india.


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## dabong1

karan.1970 said:


> Beyond a level of escalation, yes... 4 protestors protesting against closure of their illegal shops were shot in New Delhi in 2008.




Trying to compare a few deaths in a protest now and again in india to the mass killing that take place all years round kashmir by the indian occupation army is silly.


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## dabong1

karan.1970 said:


> Territory is defined by occupancy..There is no single landlord in this world that assigns land to different countries..



So the bit of land between china and india that you fought a war over belongs to china?


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

dabong1 said:


> So the bit of land between china and india that you fought a war over belongs to china?



*Well possession is 9/10th of the law.*


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## salvation

Asim Aquil said:


> From a personal blog:
> 
> Kashtastrophe | Asim Aquil  Defence.pk blogger
> 
> Just because the world has decided to ignore Kashmir and give India a free hand in its tyranny, oppression and terrorism against the Kashmiris, it doesnt mean their struggle for independence has faded away. Kashmiris are showing the entire world that they are not part of India, they want freedom, they are ready to beat up every soldier India has sent there  but is the world working too hard to look the other way?
> 
> Kashmiris have sucessfully pierced the Indian slogan of All is well and replaced with the more prominent Go to Hell by their constant protesting in Kashmir for several months now. The pictures of Indian security forces (local police, border patrol and even the Army regulars) are all being slapped around by locals; there are scores of pictures of old grandmas whacking away at the Indians in protest. One really has to wonder, where are the likes of the NY Times, Washington Post, the Guardian, the Independent and many others who are on a constant tirade against Pakistan over its role in supporting/exporting/aiding/manipulating the Taliban but only passing references to the core issue in South Asia.
> 
> India doesnt like the countries (or worse, businesses like newspapers) who highlight the Kashmir issue for what it is but love those target its enemies (also business  like newspapers). For NYTimes a rape instigated by a Shariat Court in Pakistan is close to the end of the world  but thousands of rapes in Kashmir by the Indian army  men in uniform (arguably ordered to rape)  doesnt even deserve questioning India over and over about what its doing in Kashmir.
> 
> Im not belittling the rape in Pakistan, I too feel that is of dire consequences but for genuine reasons to uplift of the status of women in Pakistan  not India appeasement.
> 
> When India insists Kashmir is an internal matter, why dont these news agencies quip up a question Why are your people so sick of you? Do they remain your people when they are all saying they are not? The right of self-determination is something the UN granted Kashmir, India signed on it, Pakistan signed on it.
> 
> The western world has been nitpicking on everything Pakistan on issues that should not be larger than the oppression of millions of people, yet the same enthusiasm is missing for Kashmir.
> 
> My message to the western world is, man up please. Be fair and give the same respect to our issues that you demand from us. Otherwise youre a party to Indias monstrosity in Kashmir  youre a rapist too.



Man, you people do live in the world of your own self cooked conspiracy theories!!

The protesters are just a bunch of misguided and frustrated youths who have nothing meaningful to do in their life. They think that by doing such things they are going to make a mark in the society. But what they fail to understand that by doing so they themselves are destroying their future.

Nobody will remember their so called "sacrifices" because of the mess they would leave behind.

Now, kashmiris have voted in large numbers when the elections were held there. *IF they DID want freedom from india then why did the turned up in huge numbers?* A number so high that it overtook the average percentage of votes cast in other states. Why? *Why did they want to support a democratic process that further integrates them with india?* Have you given it a thought? I can tell you,* its because they know that their future is better secured in india?*

And please don't give us this bull crap of elections being rigged. These elections were held under the supervision of the United Nations. The same United Nations where you spare no chances of harping the issue of kashmir.

Now if nobody is objecting the handling of situation by india, I got no reason to believe what your "hate india" media and govt. is saying.

If the foreign media doesn't tow your ling you give lame advices to them. They report the ground situations and not the doctored news like your media.


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## dabong1

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> *Well possession is 9/10th of the law.*



In this case the law says there should be a vote by the people to choose.


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## Peshwa

dabong1 said:


> So the bit of land between china and india that you fought a war over belongs to china?



At the moment, the 16,500 Sq kms lost in 62 is in China's control......Until we win it by force or come to a mutual agreement which is beneficial to both parties....YES!

We lost it fighting....No Shame

Unlike some of our neighbors, we are not in the business of donating land to a potential big boss to buy their friendship....

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## Peshwa

dabong1 said:


> In this case the law says there should be a vote by the people to choose.



Only law that exists in Indian Kashmir is Indian Law.....

And trust me....none exists of what you speak of.....


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

dabong1 said:


> In this case the law says there should be a vote by the people to choose.



I think you are referring to a* non Mandatory - non time bound resolution - and resolution is not a law. *


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## Peshwa

dabong1 said:


> Trying to compare a few deaths in a protest now and again in india to the mass killing that take place all years round kashmir by the indian occupation army is silly.



Dont trivialize death...be it any....You wouldnt want us to do the same now would you?


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## salvation

I have a question in my mind,
*Why have we not seen any protests by any islamic country(apart from pakistan) against the so called "atrocities by indian armed forces on kashmiris"?*
I mean, why don't islamic countries stop all the oil and gas supplies to india?? Their oil will be all consumed at the end of the day. 
You find it easy to blame it on foreign media about not reporting the kashmir issue to the world when your own islamic media is not reporting it.
Why blame western media then??


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## Peshwa

dabong1 said:


> I think theres things called "water tanks" and "rubber bullets" and "riot police" that most civilised nations use when being attacked by stone thrower(fs.



Well violating the laws that try to maintain law and order + peace in the region (implemented for the well being of Kashmiris) have lead to these unfortunate incidents....

Enought warning had been provided to these mobs.....violation of Indian law will be dealt with severity.....

Dont sow a cactus if you cant handle the prick.....

Besides, many of the deaths occoured thanks to the use of standard anti-riot equipment such as rubber bullets and tear gas shells.......
I do agree that we need better equipment......I think these deaths could have been avoided.....had BOTH shown restraint.....


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## BATMAN

^^To whom are you reffering?
sentence which you quoted, no where claimed of destroying india!
so, why not save your advice for your self and those who claim to nuke Pakistan?

Killing Kashmiris is fun activity for you inidans.
Look how much is she smilling while taking aim at Kashmiri children!!!!


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## amit27

I have said in numerous post related to this matter that water canons and rubber bullets should be used, in fact my first post was in relation to these methods being adopted by security forces in Kashmir.


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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> ''why''
> 
> --> why deny the roots and cause of anger



The age old excuse of justifying everything by the smoke screen of the cause.. On the street when a LEO sees a rock thrown at him, cause does not matter. Do you allow a robber to rob a bank becuase he lost a job and doesnt have a source of income?? Ends do not justify the means. You break the law, you face consequences. 



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> euuff...



Exactly.. You go after Kashmir, and thats what you will hit.. A brick wall..




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> it's like telling a Palestinian --- mind your own business until you can militarily confront israilys



C'mon yaara.. Dont underestimate Pakistan so much. The difference in the mights of India and Pakistan is no way comparitive to the difference in the capability of Israel and Palestine. Pakistan is way better than that...




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i think Pakistan needs to do a better job of bringing the issue to the worlds attention, since it seems that is the only language you people understand
> 
> at least don't disservice me or yourselves by saying ''worlds largest democracy'' and other bullcrap like that


You can try.. 

And not your place to decide what Indians and rest of the world calls India.. Pardon me, but here in India, we really dont care about Pakistani opinion about us..



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> yes, writ of state very established there i see


Do you really want to go in the realm of how much percentage of our respective countries' have the writ of state established. 

I agree its not well managed at this time, but we have been there before in a much worse situation and have over come it.. And we will this time too...




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> nothing has changed.....Kashmiris in ioK have no affinity to hindustan (the occupying force)


Doesnt change a thing...No one is forcefully held back. Those who dont want to stay with India, can get up and leave.. 



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> yeah but hindustanys just say it blindly.....it isnt your fault, your media can tell you anything and you'll believe it.
> 
> top military and intel officials worldwide commend our intelligence agencies for being invaluable in the fight against terrorism
> 
> to me, that's all that matters. Many politicians worldwide are in favour of putting pressure on all stakeholders to solve Kashmir crisis. Some prefer to remain mute.
> 
> You cant change my opinion; I cant change yours. But I do suggest you look at ground realities, at least one day when you are grown up and ready to accept them.


You can chose to stay in the fog of believing that you are right while I believe I am. I dont know what top military officials worldwide comment in private about Pakistan, publically they seem to be singing a different tune. But thats a topic for a different thread. The ISI example here is to show that just as India's beliefs dont mean any thing in Pakistan, the reverse is as much true...





Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i rubbish all statements that implicate Pakistan with exporting terrorism....i dont disagree that there are elements inside Pakistan (yes, non-state actors) who are willing to engage in terrorist activity. But when we do have the intel, we act on them.
> 
> our establishment even covertly allows drone hits on terror targets.....is that not enough proof to rubbish your claim?
> 
> lets not deviate too far now from truth and reality vs. dreams and media created fiction


Its your right to rubbish anything that you feel is not right and is not in national interest of Pakistan. Just like its mine about India.. And hey on the lines of Pakistan's favourite adage of freedom fighters and terrorists, *one man's fact is other's fiction*... 




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> yes. Pakistan does not have the needs (forget means for a second) to support stone-throwing ''terrorists'' in Kashmir....
> 
> the uprising there is a purely Kashmiri phenomenon..


Cool...





Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Sticks and stones may break some bones, whilst latest indiscriminate
> firing by CPRF has just rendered 2 more shabab lifeless....
> 
> 
> Police martyr two more innocent youth in IHK | Kashmir Media Service



I feel sad for them. 2 more pawns sacrificed in the land grab game of Pakistan...

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## salvation

BATMAN said:


> ^^To whom are you reffering?
> sentence which you quoted, no where claimed of destroying india!
> so, why not save your advice for your self and those who claim to nuke Pakistan?
> 
> Killing Kashmiris is fun activity for you inidans.
> Look how much is she smilling while taking aim at Kashmiri children!!!!



If you are so worried about kashmiris then why are you still sitting there??
Why don't you go and fight in kashmir?? 
Rather than being an arm chair expert you should come and fight for kashmiris.
"Hate india" is like a fashion among you people.

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## BATMAN

It also confirms indian media is not free and is controlled by hindus.

We know now what indian media is made up of and how much can it be trusted when they write against Kashmiris.


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## karan.1970

dabong1 said:


> Trying to compare a few deaths in a protest now and again in india to the mass killing that take place all years round kashmir by the indian occupation army is silly.



You asked a question.. I answered with an example (4 in a day). Now you are changing the context...You implied that India uses lethal force against rioters only in Kashmir and I gave an example to prove it wrong.. thats it..

---------- Post added at 02:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:57 AM ----------




dabong1 said:


> So the bit of land between china and india that you fought a war over belongs to china?



At this time.. Yes..


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## karan.1970

dabong1 said:


> In this case the law says there should be a vote by the people to choose.



Law by definition is enforcable. The UNSC resolution on Kashmir, by definition provided by UNSC is not..


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## salvation

BATMAN said:


> It also confirms indian media is not free and is controlled by hindus.
> 
> We know now what indian media is made up of and how much can it be trusted when they write against Kashmiris.



Just another conspiracy theory victim!!


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## BATMAN

Have you been to Kashmir?
Than may bee you take the lead to share some facts!


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## banned

About time the all is well mantra should come to an end. India might be looking for its very own Afghanistan in near future. The whole of Kashmiris and their indigenous uprising being blamed on ISI and Afghan heron only brings two simple questions.

1. If ISI can keep whole of Kashmir stirring for 62 years, this is a feat extraordinary. CIA and Mossad spies should be lining up in Islamabad for training.

2. If this is cause by smuggled Afghan herion, then pity India for being unable to control few thousand vulnerable drug addicts. Which means Indian armed forces are totally incompetent.


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## karan.1970

I have been to J&K quite recently. There is a very famous hindu temple near Jammu (not the Amarnath temple) that i visited. Was fairly nice and peaceful. And cell phones worked perfectly well..


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## karan.1970

banned said:


> About time the all is well mantra should come to an end. India might be looking for its very own Afghanistan in near future. The whole of Kashmiris and their indigenous uprising being blamed on ISI and Afghan heron only brings two simple questions.
> 
> 1. If ISI can keep whole of Kashmir stirring for 62 years, this is a feat extraordinary. CIA and Mossad spies should be lining up in Islamabad for training.
> 
> 2. If this is cause by smuggled Afghan herion, then pity India for being unable to control few thousand vulnerable drug addicts. Which means Indian armed forces are totally incompetent.




Deleted--Not worth it---


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## Peshwa

BATMAN said:


> It also confirms indian media is not free and is controlled by hindus.
> 
> We know now what indian media is made up of and how much can it be trusted when they write against Kashmiris.



Frankly...no one is looking for a vote of trust from you......

We worry about those that matter....Thank you very much!


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## Jackdaws

whocares said:


> I am expecting stones being pelted at me by indian members(irony) but do you ever see a generation of Indians growing up, looking at kashmir and saying 'Naah, not worth the bother' ?
> 
> Discuss under what conditions this is possible, if at all.



Fact is most Indians have never been to Kashmir and most Kashmiris have never been to rest of India. Since the rest of India is united - even the Maoists talk of overthrowing the government - not of balkanizing India - we don't have any empathy with the Kashmiris. 

However, I do have Kashmiri Muslim friends. When I heard some stories of how the Army behaves with the local population - I can see why people are angry. I too would be if my brother was kidnapped and beaten black and blue simply because some security guy liked his watch and he refused to hand it over. 

On the flip side, the same guy now resides in Bombay and he wonders what the fuss is all about - everyone here seems to get along and he is shocked at seeing Muslims drink, inter-marry people of other faiths etc. It was like a culture shock for him. 

And let's be honest - anyone who has studied history can tell you that while the Treaty of Accession was signed - only communication and foreign affairs were to be handled by India and Kashmir would have its own Prime Minister. We also know that even in 1965 - it was the local Kashmiris who told India about the Pakistani invasion. 

But then you have the circumvention of democracy by trying to completely integrate Kashmir as an Indian state. I can see Kashmir becoming a semi-independent state like Scotland is in UK - own flag, own anthem, own parliament, own sports team etc. As an Indian, I would even be fine with it. Integration with Pakistan?? LOL - talk about moving the people from the frying pan to the fire. It's not going to happen.

Complete independence - that is a crazy pipe dream. It would mean Kashmir would be landlocked nation and 3 big countries would have to cede their lands to make an independent Kashmir - India, Pakistan and China. They are not exactly the giving types. Also, given the sizeable Hindu and Buddhist populations - if it goes the Pakistan way and becomes a theocratic Muslim state with blasphemy laws and people signing documents insulting the Ahmaddiyas - then current Indian citizens of Hindu and Buddhist faiths automatically become secondary citizens. I am unsure of the religious demographics of China occupied Kashmir but that too could be a roadblock.


----------



## banned

The vision of Akhan bharat stems from main stream indian fairly tales talking about never ending kingdoms of their legendary warriors of gods. Such ambitions have historically taken India on a back and forth swing of unity and balkanization. The last balkanization of India in modern time was pre-colonial princely India. India, sadly once againt is on rail road of legendy kingdom neglecting its own masses of destitute poor. While the Indian states are lobbying for Chinese investment in infrastructure the Indian money is going towards weapon tenders.



> However, I do have Kashmiri Muslim friends. When I heard some stories of how the Army behaves with the local population - I can see why people are angry. I too would be if my brother was kidnapped and beaten black and blue simply because some security guy liked his watch and he refused to hand it over.



This is not the matter of "mere" anger. The Kashmirs are being collective capitives in a state sponsored seige. Also if Kashmirs love Indian union so much then why soo many Kashmirs haven't been to India?? Or India is too afraid of reality spilling out? Dont blame it on risk of "Pakistani infiltrators". That doesn't make sense.


----------



## whocares

Jackdaws said:


> Fact is most Indians have never been to Kashmir and most Kashmiris have never been to rest of India. Since the rest of India is united - even the Maoists talk of overthrowing the government - not of balkanizing India - we don't have any empathy with the Kashmiris.
> 
> However, I do have Kashmiri Muslim friends. When I heard some stories of how the Army behaves with the local population - I can see why people are angry. I too would be if my brother was kidnapped and beaten black and blue simply because some security guy liked his watch and he refused to hand it over.
> 
> On the flip side, the same guy now resides in Bombay and he wonders what the fuss is all about - everyone here seems to get along and he is shocked at seeing Muslims drink, inter-marry people of other faiths etc. It was like a culture shock for him.
> 
> And let's be honest - anyone who has studied history can tell you that while the Treaty of Accession was signed - only communication and foreign affairs were to be handled by India and Kashmir would have its own Prime Minister. We also know that even in 1965 - it was the local Kashmiris who told India about the Pakistani invasion.
> 
> But then you have the circumvention of democracy by trying to completely integrate Kashmir as an Indian state. I can see Kashmir becoming a semi-independent state like Scotland is in UK - own flag, own anthem, own parliament, own sports team etc. As an Indian, I would even be fine with it. Integration with Pakistan?? LOL - talk about moving the people from the frying pan to the fire. It's not going to happen.
> 
> Complete independence - that is a crazy pipe dream. It would mean Kashmir would be landlocked nation and 3 big countries would have to cede their lands to make an independent Kashmir - India, Pakistan and China. They are not exactly the giving types. Also, given the sizeable Hindu and Buddhist populations - if it goes the Pakistan way and becomes a theocratic Muslim state with blasphemy laws and people signing documents insulting the Ahmaddiyas - then current Indian citizens of Hindu and Buddhist faiths automatically become secondary citizens. I am unsure of the religious demographics of China occupied Kashmir but that too could be a roadblock.



china occupied kashmir is unpopulated. i kinda agree with you on this actually. more autonomy and withdrawal of security forces from civilian areas is definitely on the cards and something that should kickstart the normalization of cultural and economic relations.

it could backfire for all you know, stoking even more belligerence from interests who want nothing short of redrawing the border.


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## Jackdaws

Regarding the Indian Muslim and Pakistan discussion - here is my take.

Two states in the modern era were carved out as religious "homelands". Israel as a "homeland for Jews" and Pakistan as a "homeland for subcontinent Muslims". Israel has a "Right of return" law - any Jew can migrate to Israel - there is automatic citizenship. 

This is not the case with Pakistan - up until 1965 Indian Muslims did move to Pakistan and were granted citizenship. What sort of "homeland for subcontinent Muslims" is Pakistan if 65&#37; of subcontinental Muslim live outside it?

If Pakistan well and truly believes it is this promised homeland, it should have a right of return too - so that any Muslim can move their of his/her own free will.


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## Ras

whocares said:


> I am expecting stones being pelted at me by indian members(irony) but do you ever see a generation of Indians growing up, looking at kashmir and saying 'Naah, not worth the bother' ?
> 
> Discuss under what conditions this is possible, if at all.



The more time goes by more control of water sources becomes key...the only way Kashmir will be given up I think is if the rivers completely dry up.

There is a similar situation with Israel and Golan heights.


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## whocares

banned said:


> The vision of Akhan bharat stems from main stream indian fairly tales talking about never ending kingdoms of their legendary warriors of gods. Such ambitions have historically taken India on a back and forth swing of unity and balkanization. The last balkanization of India in modern time was pre-colonial princely India. India, sadly once againt is on rail road of legendy kingdom neglecting its own masses of destitute poor. While the Indian states are lobbying for Chinese investment in infrastructure the Indian money is going towards weapon tenders.



yaar kuchh bhi bak bak karte ho. go to university and take some courses on econ before all this poor and arms expenditure bullshit.


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## Jackdaws

whocares said:


> china occupied kashmir is unpopulated. i kinda agree with you on this actually. more autonomy and withdrawal of security forces from civilian areas is definitely on the cards and something that should kickstart the normalization of cultural and economic relations.
> 
> it could backfire for all you know, stoking even more belligerence from interests who want nothing short of redrawing the border.



Actually there are 2 parts of Kashmir China occupies - Aksai Chin and the Trans-Karakoram Tract - one of them is sparsely inhabited by mainly Buddhists - I forget which one.


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## Usama86

Pathetic from India. Such a huge country they are but with such a little heart. They can do so much for this whole region, but what the chose is bullying there neighbours. All the countries around India are sick of Indian policies, they want no good for the region but only for themselves at the expense of others. In the subcontinent only Pakistan can raise a voice against India and constantly remind it that they are no super power.


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## ajtr

indians will never say FVck it coz indian patience and restrain never wears down.ppl can bet on this.sure winnable bet.


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## whocares

what do you think happens today if we demilitarize kashmir today? 
do we get instant sabotage of all civilian government infrastructure?


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## Ras

As for the OP's question..India will hold on till possible economically.


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## Jackdaws

banned said:


> This is not the matter of "mere" anger. The Kashmirs are being collective capitives in a state sponsored seige. Also if Kashmirs love Indian union so much then why soo many Kashmirs haven't been to India?? Or India is too afraid of reality spilling out? Dont blame it on risk of "Pakistani infiltrators". That doesn't make sense.



They don't love the Indian Union - most of them hate it. I never said they love it. Why haven't they been to rest of India - mostly because of a lack of rail link. They are free to move to any other part of India and quite a few of them do. Who spoke of "Pakistani infiltrators"? How many Mary Janes have you had today?


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## whocares

Ras said:


> As for the OP's question..India will hold on till possible economically.



its got nothing to do with economics. we've got enough money to hold on indefinitely.


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## ajtr

settle 50 million biharis and Bhenji's UP crowd in the valley and then watch the fun....


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## Jackdaws

ajtr said:


> settle 50 million biharis and Bhenji's UP crowd in the valley and then watch the fun....



A better option would be convincing the Maoists to begin there..the Maoists and the militants can fight each other...


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## Ras

whocares said:


> its got nothing to do with economics. we've got enough money to hold on indefinitely.



It is always a question of economics...if you have money to hold on forever then India will hold on forever unless something catastrophic happens,like a nuclear war or anything.

Pakistan missed a chance in the early 90's when India was bankrupt but blew it.


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## ajtr

Jackdaws said:


> A better option would be convincing the Maoists to begin there..the Maoists and the militants can fight each other...


And you will have bigger fun when they both join hands


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## ajtr

Btw present generation is doing this.

*Rukhsana Kausar seeks permanent job in paramilitary force​*

*Kashmiri girl Rukhsana Kausar, who shot into limelight after killing a Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) terrorist, today demanded a permanent government job, ideally in a paramilitary force, and said she should be shifted out of her home district of Rajouri in view of the threat to her family.*

The 20-year-old also said she favours imparting military training to children in schools so that they can "overcome fear and prepare themselves for taking on terrorists".

*Kausar, who has been appointed as a special police officer in Jammu and Kashmir Police along with her brother and uncle for her bravery, said at a press meet organised by the Anti-Terrorist Front here that she wants a Central government job, "ideally in the CRPF".*

*"I am ready to sacrifice myself for the country. I am ready to do any job for my country, but it should be a permanent central government employment. The SPO's job is a temporary one," *she said.

Kausar also dismissed reports that she wants to settle in Delhi, but said she should be given a job outside Rajouri as living there is not safe for her family. *She cited the revenge attack on her house by militants last week.*

Flanked by her family &#8212; brother Aijaz and parents Noor and Rashida &#8212; the girl who earned the sobriquet of "braveheart", recalled how she along with her brother killed a top Pakistani militant of the LeT and injured another after a group of ultras barged into their house in Shahdra Sharief of Rajouri district on September 27. "At around 9pm, they had knocked our doors. They forced my parents to open the door and started beating them up," Kausar said. She recalled how she and Eijaz, 18, scuffled with the militants, hit them with an axe and killed one of them after snatching his AK-47 rifle.

Kausar, whose bravery had came in for praise from president Pratibha Patil and home minister P Chidambaram, said children should be given military training and made aware of how terrorists were wreaking havoc. *"Kashmir is ours and will be so. We will fight the militants,"* she said.

Asked whether she is ready to join the army if given a chance, she said "yes". To a question, Rukhsana said no major political leader had come to meet her after the incident.

Eijaz said he also wants a Central government job. He said the family is not safe is Rajouri. "Some people asked me if I will be going to my house on October 29. I said yes, after which the grenade attack came at the night."

Anti-Terrorist Front chairman MS Bitta, who presented a Saibaba idol to Kausar and posed carrying swords with the family, said the girl should be given a job in CRPF or BSF.

He alleged that "big political leaders" were shying away from meeting Rukhsana and no official other than the Rajouri SSP has came to her aid. A Maharashtra university was to award her, but scrapped the plan due to a "terror threat", he said.

"Why the BJP, which talks of tough stand against terror, has not honoured her," he asked adding, he has a feeling that Kausar was not getting her due as she is a Muslim.

Kausar's mother Rashida said she is proud of her daughter and wants her to work for the country.

Bitta said he along with the family of Rukhsana will visit Ajmer Sharif tomorrow.

"We will give our thanks for saving the lives of Rukhsana and his family," he said.

A team of Jammu and Kashmir police is travelling with Rukhsana for her protection while security has also been strengthened at her house in Rajouri, one of thecommandos accompanying the girl, said.


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## Imran Khan




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## Jackdaws

ajtr said:


> And you will have bigger fun when they both join hands



More chance of Raj Thackeray migrating to Patna than these 2 joining hands....


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## Imran Khan




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## whocares

@ ajtr : lets not derail the serious and contemplative nature of the thread.

though i'll just humour pakistan for one post :

actually, this is the best solution

freedomhouse.org: Map of Freedom in the World

give them a prime minister and a flag, but take away all political rights and call it Azad Kashmir as well.


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## Imran Khan




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## whocares

@imran and ajtr : please resist derailing the thread into another pissing match.

i seriously want to discuss indian attitudes and how they might evolve.


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## ajtr

So i do think there is no reason that GOI gonna throw up its hands and say FVCK it.coz policies are not made in media chatrooms or on the forums.policies follow a well defined procedural framework under constitution and any change if ever has to come will originate only from parliament not the south block.south block will just implement the solution parliament suggests.


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## Imran Khan

whocares said:


> @imran and ajtr : please resist derailing the thread into another pissing match.
> 
> i seriously want to discuss indian attitudes and how they might evolve.



pics of today kashmir nothing more nothing less . i don't need to derail


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## ajtr

whocares said:


> @imran and ajtr : please resist derailing the thread into another pissing match.
> 
> i seriously want to discuss indian attitudes and how they might evolve.


Sir ji its not about indian attitude its about the GOI's attitude.sorry but i ve to point out that you are barking at the wrong tree.


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## Jackdaws

Imran Khan said:


> pics of today kashmir nothing more nothing less . i don't need to derail



You do realize less people have died in Kashmir since the start of this current wave of madness than in the last 24 hours in Karachi?

Reactions: Like Like:
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## whocares

ajtr said:


> Sir ji its not about indian attitude its about the GOI's attitude.sorry but i ve to point out that you are barking at the wrong tree.



what happens behind closed door negotiations is different from discussing public opinion. i understand your position.

---------- Post added at 04:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:43 AM ----------




Jackdaws said:


> You do realize less people have died in Kashmir since the start of this current wave of madness than in the last 24 hours in Karachi?



jack, not anther india pak pissing match which sidelines kashmir.


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## Imran Khan

Jackdaws said:


> You do realize less people have died in Kashmir since the start of this current wave of madness than in the last 24 hours in Karachi?



now whats the topic and who derail shame


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## ajtr

whocares said:


> what happens behind closed door negotiations is different from discussing public opinion. i understand your position.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:43 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> jack, not anther india pak pissing match which sidelines kashmir.


wana public opinion with in india?An average joe in other states hardly care wats going on in kashmir or in his neighboring state.And if you want the opinion poll with in the valley then look for the recent outlook poll.
Lol pakstan care more for wat goes in valley than the jammu or laddak people.So tell me whose opinion u are looking for.


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## desiman

Sorry but Kashmir is non-negotiable, and is an integral part of India, Pakistan has no business in it and it better leave it alone for its own good. Stressing on this issue has put Pakistan on the verge of collapse and you have become nothing more than a laughing stock in the world. Its better you focus on your internal issues and stop poking your head into other countries. Kashmir stay's with India, period.


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## whocares

@desiman. but there are districts in kashmir which don't want union with india. leaving pakistan aside, we'll still have to solve the problem with them at some point.


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## ajtr

desiman said:


> Sorry but Kashmir is non-negotiable, and is an integral part of India, Pakistan has no business in it and it better leave it alone for its own good. Stressing on this issue has put Pakistan on the verge of collapse and you have become nothing more than a laughing stock in the world. Its better you focus on your internal issues and stop poking your head into other countries. Kashmir stay's with India, period.


If kashmir is non-negotiable then why talk about it in negotiation why no go get Pakistani occupied kashmir.
The thing is GOI's own policies about kashmir are not clear even after 60 yrs.If it wana keep it then keep it whole if it dont want to then throw it away.there is no middle way.


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## desiman

whocares said:


> @desiman. but there are districts in kashmir which don't want union with india. leaving pakistan aside, we'll still have to solve the problem with them at some point.



we will ourselves once Pakistan stops pushing terrorist into our territory. India has worked hard on Kashmir and the huge huge difference in the standard of living between Indian Kashmir and *** is quite apparent. Kashmir is India's internal matter and not Pakistan's business. We need time and we are working, we have the resources to help Kashmir but unfortunately most of those resources have to be diverted to stop the terrorist being pumped across the border.


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## eric_cartman

whocares said:


> @desiman. but there are districts in kashmir which don't want union with india. leaving pakistan aside, we'll still have to solve the problem with them at some point.



Have you ever noticed why Manipur, Nagaland or some parts have problem with India, it's because of unemployment and poverty.

Give them these two things and these problems will rectify. Hardly in today's world care anything more than money and standard of living.


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## ajtr

whocares said:


> @desiman. but there are districts in kashmir which don't want union with india. leaving pakistan aside, we'll still have to solve the problem with them at some point.


Trifurcate the state and distribute the center govt's grant equally among the 3 regions.till now valley eats up the 80% of the grants and remaining 20% goes to laddak and jammu.its gross in justice.People in the valley feel only they are "Kashmiris" and the entire country goes along with this hijacking of the term. They are mollycoddled enough that they believe that they have a have a veto over what everyone else in the state wants.Most of J&K state already feels (and wants to remain) part of India, but they are never heard in media.What about the justice to the people of Jammu and Laddak.Kashmir valley eat away the 80% of the center grants Jammu and laddak gets only 20% left.I say trifurcate the state.Valley people and politician have hijacked whole of J&K state.

*Jammu & Kashmir: Is Trifurcation a Viable Solution?​*

by R . Upadhyay

Is there a Kashmiri identity? Those in *** are actually Mirpuris. Those in Jammu are mostly Hindus and Sikhs and the Buddhists dominate Ladakh. People tend to equate the politics of Kashmir with the politics of Srinagar valley. Is trifurcation a viable solution or will it create more problems? This paper examines these issues. Director

The endless turmoil in the state of Jammu and Kashmir has also generated a debate for its trifurcation. The supporters of the theory favouring the division of the state put forward the following points in their arguments- 

* Historically, the present conglomeration of three heterogeneous regions of Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh were never an organic political entity. 

* There is inherent inter regional contradictions in terms of history, physiography, ethnicity, language and culture. 

* This sharp inter-regional contradiction has a spill over in the political perception of the three dominant communities of the respective region and integration is absent. 

* Political domination of Kashmiri Muslims and their discrimination against Jammu and Ladakh kept the latter neglected. Ladakh has persistently raised the issue of Islamic domination.

* The Hindus and Buddhists of the state are apprehensive of the likely demographic change in their respective regions due to large- scale Muslim influx from Kashmir valley. The Doda district for example has changed from a Hindu majority to a Muslim majority district. 

Heterogeneous character of the three regions

For an academic discussion, one may like to argue that the state of Jammu and Kashmir is a rare synthesis of Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism, but historically all the three regions of Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh always maintained their distinct regional identity. Due to distinct ethno-regional division of the state into three regions and their separate physiography, history, culture, and language, the people never developed any emotional link among themselves. 

The language spoken by the inhabitants of Ladakh is Tibetan in origin. Buddhism as a religion with distinct social customs and ethnicity has very little in common with the 95% Kashmiri speaking Muslim population of Kashmir valley. Similarly, the Hindus of Jammu region with Dogri as their language and Vedic culture never had any emotional communication with either of the two regions. Thus in absence of any emotional link no common identity could ever emerge as a binding force required for an organic political entity. The political geography of these three regions did not undergo any major change even during the rule of Moghul kings as they were never under single administrative command. 

The present geo-political territory of Jammu and Kashmir emerged as a state only in the middle of the nineteenth century. Ranjit Singh, the ruler of Lahore Kingdom annexed the Kingdom of Jammu and Kashmir in 1819 and apportioned the rule of Jammu to his Dogra Commander Gulab Singh in 1820 after crowning him as king. In 1834 Gulab Singh annexed the Kingdom of Ladakh. In 1846, when Kashmir was ceded to Dogra King under the Treaty of Amritsar with British Government  all the three regions of Jammu, Ladakh and Kashmir came under a single administrative control of the autocratic regime of Maharaja Gulab Singh. Thus, historically there is no ambiguity in the factual position that the three distinct regions of the state of Jammu and Kashmir were conglomerated under a single geo-political boundary only in 1846. 

Inherent Inter-regional contradictions

Due to inherent inter-regional contradictions, the successive Maharajas belonging to the Dogra clan of Jammu, who ruled this state for about one hundred years before its accession to India in October 1947 failed to create any emotional link among them. The Kashmiri Muslims under the influence of Islamic fundamentalists never compromised their subjugation under a non-Muslim Dogra regime. In fact the rule of Jammu clan over the Muslims of Kashmir since 1846 generated animosity between the two regions to an extent of an oppressor and an alien. This historical antagonism between the two gradually transformed their political mindset, which never allowed them to develop a united attitude towards any issue. 

Taking advantage of the political movement in India against the British Government, the Kashmiri Muslims formed an organisation known as Anjuman-e-Islamia in 1924 with a slogan to scrap Amritsar Treaty under which Kashmir was ceded to the Kingdom of Dogra clan. In 1931 Muslim Conference that subsequently changed into National Conference also focused their agitation more for freedom from the autocratic rule of the Hindu Maharaja of Jammu clan than against the British Government. The Quit Kashmir Movement of National Conference and Quit India Movement of Indian National Congress had different political perceptions for the Kashmiri Muslims and Hindus of Jammu. 

Inter regional contradiction in political perceptions

The sharp inter-regional contradiction in the political perception between the Muslims of Kashmir and the Hindus of Jammu during freedom movement also proves that they were mentally not attuned to integrate themselves emotionally. Even after transfer of authority from an autocratic regime to a democratic government in October 1947 the situation did not undergo any major change. While the Kashmiri speaking Muslims of the Kashmir valley by and large remained Islamist and were votaries of greater autonomy, the Hindus of Jammu had no problem in amalgamating with the mainstream political set up in India after the accession of the state. The Buddhists of Ladakh due to their animosity against the Muslims of the valley wanted to free themselves from the Muslim domination. But the then political leadership in India did not bother to understand the multi-dimensional dis-similarities in language, culture, ethnicity, history, geography and political perception of the region and transferred the dynastic authority of Dogra ruler solely to the Muslim leadership of Kashmir. They failed to work out a political mechanism for emotional integration of the people of all the three regions. 

Exploiting the softness of Pandit Nehru towards him, Sheikh Abdullah ignored the sentiments of the people of Jammu and Ladakh and diplomatically maneuvered the inclusion of article 370 in the Indian constitution. Thus, managing absolute political power under this article, he neglected the political and economic interest of Jammu and Ladakh and was more like an autocratic successor to the Dogra king. Sheikh Abdullah for all his greatness failed to win the trust of both Jammu and Ladakh. 

Political domination of Kashmiri Muslims: 

The democratic process in the state of Jammu and Kashmir was initiated with first assembly election in 1951. But by maneuvering the dominant political representation of the valley in the state Legislative Assembly, Sheikh Abdullah managed to place the political command of the state in the hands of Kashmiri Muslims. With Kashmir valley-centric mindset Sheikh Abdullah deliberately earmarked 43 seats for Kashmir, 30 for Jammu and 2 for Ladakh in the then house of a 75-member Legislative Assembly in the state, even though more than half of the population and 90 per cent of the land area belong to Jammu and Ladakh. Presently, in the house of 87-member legislative assembly in the state, Kashmir valley sends 46 members and the rest is shared between the two regions with 37 from Jammu and only 4 from Ladakh. Of the total 6 Lok Sabha seats in the state, Kashmir valley, Jammu and Ladakh have been sharing 3, 2 and 1 seats respectively. The regional share of political representation in the state is not in conformity with the strength of population and voters structure of the respective region. The voters strength of Jammu (24,55,174), Kashmir valley (24,22,765) and Ladakh (1,43719) vindicates the allegation that the people of Jammu and Ladakh due to uneven representation in the state Legislative Assembly were discriminated in the decision making process in the state. There are also allegations that in the absence of the control of the Election Commission of India in conducting the election in Jammu and Kashmir till 1967, the National Conference manipulated the rejection of the nomination of opposition candidates to maintain its hegemony in the political control of the state. 

Since no sincere effort was made by the dominant Muslim leadership in the state to integrate the people of these regions emotionally, no genuine state level leader with his influence all over the three regions could ever be produced in the state of Jammu and Kashmir. 

The best course perhaps could have been to bring the state of Jammu and Kashmir also under the purview of State Re-organisation Commission. But due to the special status of the state under Article 370 of the constitution, the re-organisation of this heterogeneous combination was not possible. On the other hand the absence of a genuine state level leadership, the Kashmiri identity as being projected by the political leaders of Kashmir valley had no takers among the Hindus of Jammu and the Buddhists of Ladakh. In reality, the Kashmiri identity became a synonym of the Muslim identity in the state. Since the Hindus of Jammu and Buddhists of Ladakh are historically, culturally and linguistically poles apart from the Muslims of Kashmir, the political domination of the latter has never been acceptable to the remaining two major groups of the state. Thus, against the never-ending greater autonomy demand of the Muslims from the central Government, the Hindus of Jammu and the Buddhists of Ladakh are demanding autonomy from the domination of the former. 

Growing apprehension in Jammu and Ladakh against demographic changes: 

The ethno-religious divide continued to haunt the dominant inhabitants of Jammu and Ladakh regions. Creation of a separate district of Doda for the Muslim majority area of Udhampur district of Jammu and similar Muslim majority district of Kargil after bifurcating the Buddhist majority district of Ladakh is viewed as an ill-designed fundamentalist approach of Kashmiri leaders for ethnic cleansing of the state. The plight of about two lakh Hindu migrants from Kashmir valley has confirmed their fear. Their deep apprehension that the Islamic fundamentalists with the support of the state Government are systematically trying to bring a demographic change in the regions with a view to make them also a Muslim majority area  has alienated them from Kashmiri Muslim. Lama Lobzang, a prominent Buddhist leader of Ladakh and also a member of National Commission of Schedule Castes and Schedule Tribes said, The NC(National Conference) Government is deliberately settling a large number of people from the valley with a view to reducing the Buddhist majority in Ladakh into minority ( Organiser dated August 13,2000 page 10). 

In 1964, the Ladakh Buddhist Association (LBA) spearheaded a movement against Kashmiri domination in the region and demanded a NEFA type central administration there. After their protracted agitation they however, agreed to the formation of Ladakh Autonomous Hill Development Council (LAHDC) in 1995. But scared with the influx of Kashmiri Muslims in Ladakh, the LAHDC passed a resolution seeking Union Territory status of Ladakh. Though the state Government rejected this resolution, Ladakh region raised its voice again for statehood with the status of Union Territory, when the state Legislative Assembly adopted a resolution in June 2000 demanding greater autonomy and pre-1953 status of the state. 

An organisation known as Panun Kashmir formed by the Hindu migrants of Kashmir also demanded creation of separate homeland for them on the north and east of Jhelum. 

Similarly, the Hindu dominated Jammu region has been nursing a grudge against the Kashmir centric politics right from the day of 1952 Delhi Agreement. An organisation known as Praja Parishad under the leadership of Prem Nath Dogra had launched an agitation against the domination of Kashmiri Muslims following the Delhi Accord of 1952. In 1979 the people of Jammu region again launched agitation against the economic neglect of the area and discrimination in Government jobs, setting up the professional institutions and other employment related Government projects. They also allege that central funds for developmental schemes in the state have become the sole privilege of the Kashmir valley due to diplomatic maneuvering by the Muslim leaders. 

In view of the multi-dimensional inter-regional contradictions followed by time-to-time agitation like Praja Parishad movement in 1952-53 the state Government set up Gajendragadkar Commission in 1967 to look into the allegations and grievances of the people of the two regions. Another commission known as Wazir Commission was set up in 1980 following the Poonch agitation of 1978-79. However, the Government did not take due notice to the Commissions report. According to an observation of Gajendragadkar Commission, The main cause of irritation and tension is the feeling of political neglect and discrimination from which the certain regions (Jammu and Ladakh) suffer. Even if all the matters are equally settled, we feel that there would still be a measure of discontent unless the political aspirations of the different regions are satisfied. ( Quoted from The Region of Jammu: A saga of neglect and discrimination By Hari Om published in a book entitled Politics of Autonomy in Jammu and Kashmir) 

Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Dr. Farooq Abdullahs move for greater autonomy demand with pre-1953 status of the state encouraged certain sections in Jammu and Ladakh regions for raising the demand for division of the state into three autonomous regions. Some local leaders of the RSS also supported this view. But the issue has so far not been raised from any corner in the state aggressively. At national level too no political party has taken any official stand in favour of the tri-furcation of the state. Even the RSS, which is quite vocal for the cause of the Hindus of Jammu, Hindu migrants of Kashmir and Buddhists of Ladakh in a resolution adopted in a meeting (July 22000 at Koba-Ahmedabad) of its Akhil Bhartiya Karyakari Mandal (ABKM) strongly opposed the greater autonomy demand of Farooq Abdullah. It urged upon the Government, to ensure that in any discussions with the protagonists of autonomy, which is a thin veil for azadi, the uprooted Hindus of the valley are rehabilitated in their home state and involved in deliberations at every level and the political aspirations of Jammu and Ladakh regions are fully met." 

Conclusion

There is no doubt that the divergent political orientation, aspirations and mindsets of the three regions and their geo-ethnic division fulfill all the criteria required for the tri-furcation of the state. The Ladakh Buddhist Association has already come up with a demand for Union Territory status of the region. In Jammu, an organisation like Jammu Mukti Morcha was formed with its sole aim and objective favouring tri-furcation of state by creation of separate state of Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh. It also set up one candidate for assembly election in 1996 but lost badly. 

Despite the convincing reasons behind the demand for tri-furcation of state, its division on communal line may not be desirable in the larger national interest. When Pakistan is still harping on the two-nation theory that has been buried deep after the emergence of Bangladesh, time is not ripe for such a division now with the state facing the most virulent Jehadi type of Muslim insurgency. The state of Jammu and Kashmir is having border with both Pakistan and China. Pakistan has made a number of attempts to grab this state forcefully. Thus due to over all security reason its tri-furcation may lead to security complications. Our experience in North Eastern region of the country has proved that creation of smaller states has only helped the divisive forces in the country. The need of the hour is to have an emotional integration of all the three regions of this state. A fair deal with all the three regions with proportionate political representation in the decision making process, their rightful and legitimate share in the economic developments and resolution of regional imbalance may perhaps be the only solution. The protagonists of inter-regional autonomy also have valid reason for their demand that people of Jammu, Ladakh and migrant Hindus from Kashmir valley must be taken into confidence in the discussion relating to the problem of Kashmir.


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## ajtr

eric_cartman said:


> Have you ever noticed why Manipur, Nagaland or some parts have problem with India, it's because of unemployment and poverty.
> 
> Give them these two things and these problems will rectify. Hardly in today's world care anything more than money and standard of living.


sorry to break ur bubble but J&K is the least poor state in india.


*The reasons are not socio-economic but politico-religious​*

*Why do the Indians of the Kashmir valley on which the rest of the country spends Rs 11,000 per capita, still refuse to accept that they are Indians?*
*Why does a cancer-stricken pro-Pakistan leader, who was given remission by Indian doctors (when he was denied an American visa) still want his state to merge with Pakistan?*

*Are the Kashmiris not aware of the daily mayhem in Pakistan where more Muslims have been killed while praying in mosques in the last two, three years than the last 100 years in undivided India!
*
The search for answer necessitates a foray into the past.

Sixteen years ago, our group contributed a tiny bit to solve the Kashmir problem when we inducted six hand-me-down computers (gifted by Cummins Ltd, Pune) in schools in Kupwara in north Kashmir. Our group also suggested the opening of English medium schools to counter the influence of madrasas.

A year later, a team of scientists travelled to the Rajouri-Poonch area to study the possibility of applying modern horticulture and mushroom cultivation to better the economic conditions. This journey began in 1991, when one saw abject poverty in rural areas that led people to opt for militancy in return for money.

It is never poverty or economic deprivation that leads to violence and revolt, but loss of hope in a better future. Our effort was appropriately called Project Hope.

*It was a tiny effort that did act as a catalyst, and later a much bigger Operation Sadbhavana or Goodwill was successfully launched by the army. Every year, youth from the state are taken on a tour of India to acquaint them with the other parts of the country. Post the Kargil clash of 1999, it seemed that insurgency was brought under control with a carrot and stick approach.*

When General V K Singh recently showed his anguish at lost opportunities, he was pointing out that the army has not only brought the insurgency under control but has done a huge amount of social work and earned the goodwill of the general population.

*On the back of it, the state and the central governments ought to have gone on the offensive against the separatists on the ideological and political front. But instead, the forces that organised stone-pelting on a regular basis were handled with kid gloves. The result is that emboldened elements have now derailed peace in the valley.*

The reason is that the average Kashmiri does not believe that the government has the will to fight.

How else do we explain the fact that on one hand we shout from rooftops that Kashmir is an integral part of India and on the other accept a role for Pakistan in the affairs of Kashmir?

Most of this analysis is, of course, old hat but one thing that has changed in Kashmir is the fact that today, socio-economic deprivation or poverty is NOT the prime motivation, it is the religio-politico issue now.


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## desiman

ajtr said:


> If kashmir is non-negotiable then why talk about it in negotiation why no go get Pakistani occupied kashmir.
> The thing is GOI's own policies about kashmir are not clear even after 60 yrs.If it wana keep it then keep it whole if it dont want to then throw it away.there is no middle way.



The problem is with the Congress and the toy PM we have right now, i have great respect for Manmohan singh as a finance minister but as a PM is a total failure. This government has done a terrible job and I hope it gets voted out in the next elections. Our stance has to be clear, Dont talk about Kashmir and only talk about the terrorist that are being trained and breded in Pakistan. Countries like the UK are now agreeing to what we have said and are also now seeing the two face politics that Pakistan plays. On one side the so called "War on terror" goes on and on the other side terrorist are shipped to attack Mumbai. What we need to do - 

1) Cut of all diplomatic relations. 

2) Impose economic sanctions on Pakistan. 

3) Send back all Pakistani's living in India 

4) Cut off all talks 

5) Fence the LOC throughout. 

6) Start heavy investment in Kashmir 

We are economically strong nation and we have the strength to dictate terms in this region, and its due time that we do.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## banned

eric_cartman said:


> Have you ever noticed why Manipur, Nagaland or some parts have problem with India, it's because of unemployment and poverty.
> 
> Give them these two things and these problems will rectify. Hardly in today's world care anything more than money and standard of living.



That is what the best and brightest "American" capitalist enslaved minds have to reason with??? Seriously if such was the reason Pakistan would not have come into being. The Afghans shouldn't be revolting, the Palestinians should be happy in merger with Israel, the Iraqis should welcome Americans with flower petals and finally the dutch shouldn't be campaigning for division of Belgium. There are whole lot of other reasons people aspire for. Jobs and standard of living is one of them.

Pakistan inherited the most poor and backward part of Asia yet thousand of refugees flocked to it. There was something on offer which aspired them.


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## desiman

ajtr said:


> sorry to break ur bubble but J&K is the least poor state in india.
> 
> 
> *The reasons are not socio-economic but politico-religious​*
> 
> *Why do the Indians of the Kashmir valley on which the rest of the country spends Rs 11,000 per capita, still refuse to accept that they are Indians?*
> *Why does a cancer-stricken pro-Pakistan leader, who was given remission by Indian doctors (when he was denied an American visa) still want his state to merge with Pakistan?*
> 
> *Are the Kashmiris not aware of the daily mayhem in Pakistan where more Muslims have been killed while praying in mosques in the last two, three years than the last 100 years in undivided India!
> *
> The search for answer necessitates a foray into the past.
> 
> Sixteen years ago, our group contributed a tiny bit to solve the Kashmir problem when we inducted six hand-me-down computers (gifted by Cummins Ltd, Pune) in schools in Kupwara in north Kashmir. Our group also suggested the opening of English medium schools to counter the influence of madrasas.
> 
> A year later, a team of scientists travelled to the Rajouri-Poonch area to study the possibility of applying modern horticulture and mushroom cultivation to better the economic conditions. This journey began in 1991, when one saw abject poverty in rural areas that led people to opt for militancy in return for money.
> 
> It is never poverty or economic deprivation that leads to violence and revolt, but loss of hope in a better future. Our effort was appropriately called Project Hope.
> 
> *It was a tiny effort that did act as a catalyst, and later a much bigger Operation Sadbhavana or Goodwill was successfully launched by the army. Every year, youth from the state are taken on a tour of India to acquaint them with the other parts of the country. Post the Kargil clash of 1999, it seemed that insurgency was brought under control with a carrot and stick approach.*
> 
> When General V K Singh recently showed his anguish at lost opportunities, he was pointing out that the army has not only brought the insurgency under control but has done a huge amount of social work and earned the goodwill of the general population.
> 
> *On the back of it, the state and the central governments ought to have gone on the offensive against the separatists on the ideological and political front. But instead, the forces that organised stone-pelting on a regular basis were handled with kid gloves. The result is that emboldened elements have now derailed peace in the valley.*
> 
> The reason is that the average Kashmiri does not believe that the government has the will to fight.
> 
> How else do we explain the fact that on one hand we shout from rooftops that Kashmir is an integral part of India and on the other accept a role for Pakistan in the affairs of Kashmir?
> 
> Most of this analysis is, of course, old hat but one thing that has changed in Kashmir is the fact that today, socio-economic deprivation or poverty is NOT the prime motivation, it is the religio-politico issue now.



its not, go check your facts before posting. J & K is among the most well to do states in India. Please dont post without checking the facts first.


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## eric_cartman

ajtr said:


> sorry to break ur buuble but J&K is the least poor state in india.



Don't tell me those stone pelters are working for Infosys and came back from onsite in America and enjoying vacations by throwing stones because Infosys didn't do their H1 and they were made to do work on L1 visa and couldn't transfer to some American company while they were in States.


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## ajtr

*Kashmiri separatism is bogus​*

*Without too much of debate, one can propose seven steps that can make or mar peace in that area.*
*Stop giving undue importance to the valley Jammu and Kashmir is not just a few cities in the valley but also consists of Jammu, Kargil, Rajouri-Poonch and Ladakh. Please disabuse the gulli mohalla leaders of their notions.
*
*Identify people who spread disaffection and incite violence and send them to jails outside the state, preferably Jodhpur.

Do not ban Pakistan television. Let the average Kashmiri see what awaits him on the other side of the border.

Take on the separatists on an ideological ground Kashmiri separatism is bogus and a creation of post-independence politics. Kashmir was very much a part of India in ancient times, the middle ages and the modern era.
*
How was it different from 400-odd princely states? Except that it had a Muslim majority, but do we in India discriminate on the basis of religion?

If not, what is the rationale for the so-called 'uniqueness' of Kashmir? This ideological battle is far more important than all other measures like economic goodies et al.

*Let us face it: It is not Kashmiri separatism but Islamic separatism that we face in the valley.*

Establish a dialogue with non-politicised religious leaders. Urge them to work for peace. The church in the North-East played this role and helped bring peace. Point out to them the travails of the people of Pakistan. Do they want Kashmiri Muslims to suffer the same fate?

Ask internal supporters as to whether the 20 per cent Shia, 40 per cent Hindus and 5 per cent Buddhists of the state have any future in a Sharia-based entity?

*Establish institutional mechanisms. Like an independent commission for police oversight and an armed forces independent office of civil complaints to make sure that the security forces operate within the law and citizens have a forum to redress their grievances. The model in Northern Ireland is worth looking at.*

Along with this, post a governor with defence or intelligence background who is proactive. (The incumbent, with his pure bureaucratic background, is an unmitigated disaster, though he claims a military background having been in the military academy for some time).

Such a governor must play a role as a liaison between the government and security forces.

Establish institutions of local self-government While there is constant talk of more autonomy from the Centre, there is virtually no devolution of power to the local levels.

Much of the grievances are essentially of a local nature and this measure will go a long way in Kashmir enjoying the fruits of democracy.

*On the one hand there is realisation that unemployment is the cause of unrest, yet on the other xenophobia rules the roost when it comes to investment from other parts of the country If Kashmiris want to stew in their own juice, let them do so but why must the Jammu division or Ladakh or Kargil suffer from this due to Article 370 and the valley people's allergy to anything Indian?
*
Establish district councils and permit them to invite investments in tourism and other sectors.

These simple steps, if taken, will not solve the Kashmir issue. But they will certainly deal with the present crisis and forestall its repetition.

For a long-term solution to the whole Kashmir problem, there is no substitute to opening a mass debate with the participation of representatives of all regions of the state and not just the valley.

The dialogue must be open and public. Experience teaches us that all the 'quiet' talks behind closed doors generally come to naught when dealing with deep-rooted conflicts. Any agreement arrived at through this is quickly denounced as a sellout and another extremist faction takes birth.

This has been the experience the world over and there is no substitute for a widely-based open dialogue for ushering in durable peace.


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## eric_cartman

banned said:


> That is what the best and brightest "American" capitalist enslaved minds have to reason with??? Seriously if such was the reason Pakistan would not have come into being. The Afghans shouldn't be revolting, the Palestinians should be happy in merger with Israel, the Iraqis should welcome Americans with flower petals and finally the dutch shouldn't be campaigning for division of Belgium. There are whole lot of other reasons people aspire for. Jobs and standard of living is one of them.
> 
> Pakistan inherited the most poor and backward part of Asia yet thousand of refugees flocked to it. There was something on offer which aspired them.




Times have changed Sir, everyone wants iPhone in their hands.


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## ajtr

desiman said:


> its not, go check your facts before posting.


then counter it with ur facts dont fart away like morning constipated gas.


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## desiman

Asim Aquil said:


> Nobody can say for certain, but I think It won't take Generations if the current level of escalations continue. Sooner or later the Indian security forces won't have any cover from stones being hurled at them.



or the stone throwers will crumble out of existence if things go the way they are. Dont they say that people living in glass houses shouldnt throw stones at others, thats the case with Pakistan.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Yes we supply heroine and 500rs to each stone throwing protester, wow indian media truely SUCKS BIG TIME.


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## desiman

ajtr said:


> then counter it with ur facts dont fart away like morning constipated gas.



please look at this - 

List of Indian states by GDP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have more figures if you are interested. Next time learn to respect members more senior that you.


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## whocares

screw this. pissing match all over again.


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## banned

Dude lets get over with the facts that there was no India before the British colonization. You are very well refuting the Kashmir history much like Indian official state policy against which the Kashmir's are revolting. Kashmir was an independent state even during the colonial era. So what gives India claim over it?? Going back in history and calling Kashmir part of India is in a senseless, the correct phrase would be Indian continent of 400+ princely states.


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## ajtr

desiman said:


> please look at this -
> 
> List of Indian states by GDP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> I have more figures if you are interested. Next time learn to respect members more senior that you.




J&K's dependency on Centre alarming

While Jammu & Kashmir continues through an endless cycle of calm-confrontation-curfew, it is facing a disastrous financial situation. Recently released Reserve Bank of India data on state finances shows how highly dependent J&K is on the central government's support. 

In 2009-10, J&K received Rs 13,252 crore as grants from the Centre, which constitutes nearly 60% of the state's total expenditure. In fact, for the past two decades since the separatist movement spread in the Kashmir valley, the centre has been propping up the state through similar doles. In all, J&K has received grants amounting to Rs 94,409 crore between 1989-90 and 2009-10. 

For over a decade, from 1994-95 to 2005-06, the state received 10-12% of all grants disbursed by the central government to the states. In 2009-10, this proportion had dipped slightly to about 8%. This is way above J&K's share of India's population, which is a mere 1%. 

Is the Centre providing similar support to the other hotspot of insurgency in India  the northeast? Not quite. According to the RBI report, in 2009-10, the eight northeastern states received grants and loans worth Rs 29,084 crore from the Centre, which was 44% of their combined total expenditure, which is significantly lower than in J&K. These figures raise two questions about J&K: one, how is this money being spent, and two, why is it not helping in soothing the discontent that is obviously so widespread? 

Spending on the social sector  schools, health, rural development, etc  in J&K is surprisingly low at about 30% of aggregate expenditure. That is the fourth lowest proportion among all states. The all-state average is 40% and states like Chhattisgarh (54%), Maharashtra (50%) and Rajasthan (46%) do much better. What is even more surprising in the case of J&K is that it has been stagnating at this level for nearly thirty years. 

As can be expected for a mountainous region wracked by insurgency, administrative expenditure is high in J&K, working out to about 12% of all expenditure. But Himachal and Sikkim, other Himalayan states, spend only about 6% on administration. So, perhaps J&K's high administrative costs are largely due to the disturbed situation. But Tripura with 16% and Mizoram with 14% of funds spent on administration have managed to attain stability and peace. Obviously, the high expenditure on administration in J&K is not really working. 

A clue to this conundrum can be found in the per capita spending by state governments. Three mountainous border states, Sikkim, Mizoram and Arunachal Pradesh, which have had militancy problems, but have been relatively stable for a long period, spent Rs 59 lakh, Rs 35 lakh and Rs 38 lakh per capita in 2009-10. 

In J&K, the annual per capita spending by the state is far short of this, at about Rs 20 lakh. Meghalaya, Manipur and Nagaland  all states wracked by insurgency to varying degrees  have similar spending levels ranging between Rs 18 to 21 lakh per capita per annum. So, part of the answer to the question as to why pouring money into J&K is not solving the problem lies in the fact that not enough money is being spent, because the state itself is not generating enough revenue. The other part, of course, is whether money shown as spent is really reaching the people. What's your guess?

Read more: J&K's dependency on Centre alarming - India - The Times of India J&K's dependency on Centre alarming - India - The Times of India


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## eric_cartman

banned said:


> Dude lets get over with the facts that there was no India before the British colonization. You are very well refuting the Kashmir history much like Indian official state policy against which the Kashmir's are revolting. Kashmir was an independent state even during the colonial era. So what gives India claim over it?? Going back in history and calling Kashmir part of India is in a sense no different that 400+ imperial princely states being part of India.



The Raja who was ruling over it handed Kashmir to India, I know you will say Hyderabad's Raja wanted to be independent or be with Pakistan.
But what fun it would have been flying like 1000kms to eat a plate of Hyderabadi biryani, better take cooks to Pakistan which I think did happen.


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## desiman

ajtr said:


> J&K's dependency on Centre alarming
> 
> While Jammu & Kashmir continues through an endless cycle of calm-confrontation-curfew, it is facing a disastrous financial situation. Recently released Reserve Bank of India data on state finances shows how highly dependent J&K is on the central government's support.
> 
> In 2009-10, J&K received Rs 13,252 crore as grants from the Centre, which constitutes nearly 60% of the state's total expenditure. In fact, for the past two decades since the separatist movement spread in the Kashmir valley, the centre has been propping up the state through similar doles. In all, J&K has received grants amounting to Rs 94,409 crore between 1989-90 and 2009-10.
> 
> For over a decade, from 1994-95 to 2005-06, the state received 10-12% of all grants disbursed by the central government to the states. In 2009-10, this proportion had dipped slightly to about 8%. This is way above J&K's share of India's population, which is a mere 1%.
> 
> Is the Centre providing similar support to the other hotspot of insurgency in India  the northeast? Not quite. According to the RBI report, in 2009-10, the eight northeastern states received grants and loans worth Rs 29,084 crore from the Centre, which was 44% of their combined total expenditure, which is significantly lower than in J&K. These figures raise two questions about J&K: one, how is this money being spent, and two, why is it not helping in soothing the discontent that is obviously so widespread?
> 
> Spending on the social sector  schools, health, rural development, etc  in J&K is surprisingly low at about 30% of aggregate expenditure. That is the fourth lowest proportion among all states. The all-state average is 40% and states like Chhattisgarh (54%), Maharashtra (50%) and Rajasthan (46%) do much better. What is even more surprising in the case of J&K is that it has been stagnating at this level for nearly thirty years.
> 
> As can be expected for a mountainous region wracked by insurgency, administrative expenditure is high in J&K, working out to about 12% of all expenditure. But Himachal and Sikkim, other Himalayan states, spend only about 6% on administration. So, perhaps J&K's high administrative costs are largely due to the disturbed situation. But Tripura with 16% and Mizoram with 14% of funds spent on administration have managed to attain stability and peace. Obviously, the high expenditure on administration in J&K is not really working.
> 
> A clue to this conundrum can be found in the per capita spending by state governments. Three mountainous border states, Sikkim, Mizoram and Arunachal Pradesh, which have had militancy problems, but have been relatively stable for a long period, spent Rs 59 lakh, Rs 35 lakh and Rs 38 lakh per capita in 2009-10.
> 
> In J&K, the annual per capita spending by the state is far short of this, at about Rs 20 lakh. Meghalaya, Manipur and Nagaland  all states wracked by insurgency to varying degrees  have similar spending levels ranging between Rs 18 to 21 lakh per capita per annum. So, part of the answer to the question as to why pouring money into J&K is not solving the problem lies in the fact that not enough money is being spent, because the state itself is not generating enough revenue. The other part, of course, is whether money shown as spent is really reaching the people. What's your guess?
> 
> Read more: J&K's dependency on Centre alarming - India - The Times of India J&K's dependency on Centre alarming - India - The Times of India



First decide what you want to argue on then we can argue, do you want to talk about the poorest state, GDP, or the fiscal expenditure of a government. You are mixing issues here without knowing a zit about economics. Your point that Kashmir is the poorest state in India is wrong and I dont know what you trying to prove. Please be clear with your statements.


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## ajtr

desiman said:


> First decide what you want to argue on then we can argue, do you want to talk about the poorest state, GDP, or the fiscal expenditure of a government. You are mixing issues here without knowing a zit about economics. Your point that Kashmir is the poorest state in India is wrong and I dont know what you trying to prove. Please be clear with your statements.


i said least poor sate.not the poor


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## whocares

eric_cartman said:


> The Raja who was ruling over it handed Kashmir to India, I know you will say Hyderabad's Raja wanted to be independent or be with Pakistan.
> But what fun it would have been flying like 1000kms to eat a plate of Hyderabadi biryani, better take cooks to Pakistan which I think did happen.



lets not discuss the past but instead the future.


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## ajtr

Moreover karshmir riots have less to do with economics.if thats the case Laddak would ve been up in arm first.


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## ajtr

whocares said:


> lets not discuss the past but instead the future.


Future is claim the rest of kashmir there only way left.


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## desiman

ajtr said:


> i said least poor sate.not the poor



lol sorry may have read you the wrong way. getting to used to people crying over the same things on this forum, apologies from my side.


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## eric_cartman

ajtr said:


> Moreover karshmir riots have less to do with economics.if thats the case Laddak would ve been up in arm first.



Ladakh is full of people of Buddhist faith like Tibetan who are basically non voilent and believe in destiny.

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## Jay1

I have my own vision.... I am completely against war but at some stage you have to go for it. kashmir need same thing.

Pakistan already have enough part of kashmir. Now whatever we have should be with us. Be prepare for any type of conflict. I am dam sure nothing gonna change with diplomacy. you can Bet.


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## EjazR

Well the blame is on western media.

Indian media is highlighting the plight of Kashmirs much more than even the Pakistani media. So shouldn't THAT be appreciated?

There are almost 24 hours reporting on the Kashmir situation and every paper has a front page story on Kashmir. There are thousands of voices that are raising the voices for a humane and just treatment. The only way to talk about justice to Kashmiris is not asking for them to merge with Pakistan.

Yes, Indian media rightly highlights it more than the western media or even Pakistani media because J&K is a part of India.


On a side note, we should have seen the same level of outrage when 190+ Uighur Muslims were killed in three days. Nine of them executed and then another 20 executed after 3 months. 

Atleast in India foreigners and media are given a free hand in reporting can we say the same for China ? Outrage should be equally directed.

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## Pride

I dont know if foriegn media reports it properly for Kashmir but our media always raises concern for both the side. If you are not agreed with me, Please look past 3-4 days news paper "The Hindu". The only point is they don't and won't write your POV which is no where near the reality. 

Regarding unrest in Kashmir, It will always be on untill there are few democratic leaders leave blindfold of religion and Independance for their political profit and come on to table for discussion as well as insurgency from neighbours will stop. Remember one point, This will always be 2 way discussion between separatist leaders & GoI and will not included Pakistan on the same.


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## Pride

BATMAN said:


> Have you been to Kashmir?
> Than may bee you take the lead to share some facts!



Yes Batman, I have been Kashmir some 1 year ago. I tell you what are the major issues as per discussion with Kashmiris and my understanding:-

1) There are few separatist leaders who talks about "Independance" for their political benefit as well as monetatry benefit they recieve from neighbours.

2) There are few misguided youth who in influence of these leaders and lucrative offers from insurgents go and take training from neighbouring Kashmir.

3) No doubt, in many part of Kashmir's people don't want IA but GoI needs them so there are no repetition of insurgency like 1948, 1965 and 1999.

4) The biggest problem is development in Kashmir. Article 377 from Indian constitution does not give us liberty for starting business apart from this as PETA act has been applied then Pashmina Shawl business of Kashmir is also doomed. They need earning to run their buisness. Many of them either migrate to other parts of India or involved with tourists in Vaishno Devi, Amarnath Yatra & in Srinagar.

5) There are notorious elements in IA and Police which seek easy way to get promotion by encountering few youths. There are few such cases has observed in past. This is also a biggest reason to oppose IA in few area.


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## d14gtc

jst a same old story ll lead to knowhere

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## Pride

EjazR said:


> We all mourn their loss no matter what flag they raise.
> 
> Btw, Im surprised you don't know how your flag looks like. I think you missed the white strip. This green flags with cresencts just has a muslim connatation to it and you will see them in dargas e.t.c around India and other parts of the world. So no need to mistake it as Pakistani flag.
> 
> Check this out for comparison



Good point buddy.. apart from Green color flag, I have also seen same flag with Red color.. does that mean many Indians want to go to Turkey??

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## Pride

BATMAN said:


> ^^To whom are you reffering?
> sentence which you quoted, no where claimed of destroying india!
> so, why not save your advice for your self and those who claim to nuke Pakistan?
> 
> *Killing Kashmiris is fun activity for you inidans.*
> Look how much is she smilling while taking aim at Kashmiri children!!!!




Yes buddy.. 2 jawans from IA get up early in the morning and bet that see today I am going to kill 10 Kashmiris.. second says 20 Kashmiris.. so by evening 30 Kashmiris are finished just for bet...

Get a life buddy........


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## GUNNER

*Kashmir: no ideal solution* 

*By Kuldip Nayar* 



What is happening in the valley lends credibility to the Kashmiri diaspora that met in Washington a few days ago to ask for an early, peaceful solution to the Kashmir problem. 

I was one of the participants at the conference which was convened by the Kashmiri-American Council and Association of Humanitarian lawyers. Emotions apart, the diaspora was concerned over the future of the land of their origin. 

All agreed, as is the general belief in India, that a delayed political solution of the Kashmir problem is responsible for the eruption of occasional violence or protests in the state. The participants expressed grave concern over the deteriorating human rights situation in Kashmir and demanded the appointment of a commission to investigate the causes of the current violence in the valley, where 43 people have died since June 11 when the present wave began. 

I have no doubt that the mishandling of the situation and violation of human rights have contributed to the spread of defiance and destruction in the valley. But the youth were equally determined to pelt stones on security forces. 

In fact, the reason behind such occurrences is the alienation of Kashmiris from India and New Delhis assumption that the people will ultimately come round to accepting the status quo if they were to find the governance just, honest and working for the betterment of the state. The situation has gone beyond that. 

There is validity in the argument that the separatists are not allowing the situation to settle down. But the fact remains that people in Kashmir have given Srinagar and New Delhi many chances  the recent one being the year-old election in which they participated to the extent of 60 per cent  to sort out the problem of autonomy. But the two did not do so. 

Where did things go wrong? My experience tells me that the more a political party, or the administration at Srinagar, goes nearer to India the greater is the resentment of people who want to preserve their own identity. A government which is seen challenging New Delhi is liked because it gives them a vicarious satisfaction of being independent. 

Sheikh Abdullah, a popular Kashmiri leader, understood this. He did not question Kashmirs accession to India but placated the Kashmiris by criticising New Delhi for eroding the states autonomy. For example, he would say that the Kashmiris would prefer to stay hungry if the atta from India was meant to trample upon their right to stay independent. It may have been a fiction but it worked. 

Even Jawaharlal Nehru, the Sheikhs friend and supporter in political battles against the Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir, did not understand his rhetoric and detained him without trial in southern India for some 12 years. Still Nehru realised rather late that tampering with autonomy had taken the shape of separation and a strong pro-Pakistan tilt. He released the Sheikh and sent him to Islamabad. Unfortunately Nehru died when the Sheikh was in the midst of talks with Gen Ayub Khan, Pakistans martial law administrator. 

Until then Kashmir was a problem between India and Pakistan. They held talks and fought wars but reached nowhere. The Shimla Agreement converted the ceasefire line into the Line of Control. But the two failed to go further because of their domestic compulsions. The Sheikh returned to power and entered into an accord with then Prime Minister Indira Gandhi that restored some autonomy which New Delhi had appropriated in his absence. But the Sheikh did not have a free hand because the bureaucracy and the intelligence agencies, by then strong, did not want him to succeed. They treated me like a chaprasi (peon), the Sheikh often told me. 

His son, Farooq Abdullah, much less in stature, tried to retrieve the situation by asking New Delhi to go back to the terms of accession, the centre retaining only three subjects, defence, foreign affairs and communications. Successive governments at New Delhi felt that they could not go back as they feared a backlash. Former Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee was the only person who foresaw the danger in not reaching a settlement. He set up a back channel which almost found a solution when Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif was ousted by Gen Pervez Musharraf. 

I was reminded of the promise Nehru made to the Kashmiris that they would be given an opportunity to decide what they wanted to do with their territory. I told them that Nehru had rejected the demand for a plebiscite in his lifetime. His reasoning was that Pakistan by joining Cento and Seato, the two military pacts against the Soviet Union during the Cold War, had changed the context of the undertaking. 

In the 80s, the Kashmir problem became an issue. The Kashmiris too claimed a place on the table for talks on Kashmir. Rigged state elections in 1987 drove the youth from ballot to bullet which Pakistan was willing to provide. The following 10 years saw a running battle between the Kashmiris and the security forces. Thousands died on both sides. The result was a further hiatus between the Kashmiris and New Delhi. 

Three things happened. One, the anti-India Kashmir leadership constituted a joint body, the All Hurriyat Conference. Two, a secular movement acquired an Islamic edge, particularly because of hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani. Three, the pro-Pakistan tilt changed into a resolve for independence, the slogan which Yasin Malik, the first militant in Kashmir, raised. Today that sentiment prevails in the shape of a demand that Kashmiris decide their own destiny. 

The demand for independence may be genuine but it is not possible. I wonder even if Pakistan would agree to an independent, sovereign state when the chips are down. I opposed the demand at the conference in Washington on two counts: one, India will not agree to another partition on the basis of religion, and two, borders could be made irrelevant but not changed. I also cautioned that Jammu and Ladakh would not go along with the valley to the point of secession. 

Yet it would be useful to find out what was the solution that Vajpayee and Nawaz Sharif had reached to make the former say: We were almost there. Former Foreign Minister Khurshid Kasuri announced at Delhi that they had reached a settlement. What was the solution? 

And the most important part is whether Kashmiris would accept it? Both India and Pakistan must persuade them to accept autonomy because independence does not seem to find favour in either New Delhi or Islamabad. It can tell upon Indias integrity. The Kashmiris should realise that independence is not an ideal solution.


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## rajgoynar

SRINAGAR, India  At least 60 people have been killed and hundreds injured after heavy rain triggered flash floods in Leh, the main town in India Kashmir's high-altitude Ladakh region, officials said Friday.

The floods tore though the town and surrounding villages without warning during the night when most residents were asleep, damaging homes and government buildings.

"So far we have some 60 dead," Kashmir Tourism Minister Nawang Rigzin Jora told AFP from Leh.

Jora said the death toll was likely to rise "significantly" with dozens still missing in Leh and rescue workers unable to reach some of the affected districts nearby.

At least 200 people were reported injured.

"The devastation is unprecedented," Jora said, adding that the military had been called in to help with the relief efforts.

The Indian army has a large presence in Ladakh which shares a sensitive border with neighbouring China.

The mountainous, Buddhist-dominated region, sitting in the southeastern part of Muslim-majority Kashmir, is popular with foreign adventure tourists interested in Himalayan trekking and river-running.

Some 3,500 metres (11,500 feet) above sea level, Leh is surrounded by high-altitude desert and heavy rainfall is uncommon.

The town was effectively cut off, with the flood waters washing away sections of the main highways to the popular backpacker destination of Manali and the Kashmiri summer capital, Srinagar.

"So far, we have no reports of any tourists among the dead, but some are stranded on the Leh-Manali road. The army has sent rescue teams there," Jora said.

A police spokesman said Leh airport had also been damaged, stopping all incoming and outgoing flights.



AFP: Flash floods kill 60 in Indian Kashmir: officials


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## Dash

dabong1 said:


> In this case the law says there should be a vote by the people to choose.


First of all ...Its NOT a law. Its a proposed action plan.

But who created the plan, when it was created?, what does it signifies now need to be discussed before you claim it to be a law....
Tell me your thoughts about it..


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## EjazR

*The Associated Press: Flash floods kill dozens in Indian Kashmir*

SRINAGAR, India  A sudden overnight downpour and flash floods killed at least 59 people and injured 200 in the remote and mountainous Ladakh region of Indian-controlled Kashmir, police and army officials said Friday.

Police and paramilitary soldiers had pulled 59 bodies from flood-hit areas around Leh, the main town in Ladakh, state police chief Kuldeep Khoda said. Rescue efforts were being hampered by gushing water and debris, he said.

Operations had been stopped at Leh airport after it was badly damaged by the flood waters, with parts of the runway washed away. Indian air force troopers were clearing the debris from the airstrip, Khoda said.

"At least 200 people are in the army hospital with injuries. And many more people are trapped under houses and buildings that have collapsed," he said.

The flooding also damaged telephone towers and highways leading to the region, army spokesman Lt. Col. J.S. Brar said in Srinagar, the main city in Kashmir. Leh is about 280 miles (450 kilometers) east of Srinagar.

The affected area is a high-altitude desert about 11,500 feet (3,500 meters) above sea level, and it normally experiences very low precipitation.

Prof. Shakeel Romshoo, a geologist at Kashmir University in Srinagar, said new rivulets had cut deep channels in the mountain gorges of the region and flood waters had inundated low-lying areas.

"It's a challenging topography with steep and unstable slopes. Water flow and velocity being very high, the flash floods have caused huge damage," he said.

"Mud and water is everywhere," said Kashmiri businessman Kausar Makhdoomi, who was on holiday in Leh, the region's main town.

Makhdoomi said the rainfall started before midnight and that water later started coursing down the area's mountains in streams and rivulets. The flooding had damaged several homes and other buildings by Friday morning, he said.

"There was utter confusion and people started to panic," he said.

Police, paramilitary troops and the army have launched a massive rescue operation in Leh, Khoda said.

Flood waters were pouring into the River Indus flowing into neighboring Pakistan, which has also been hit by destructive floods.


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## bc040400065

*Violence in Indian Kashmir*
*A cyclical problem
The bloody protests in Indian Kashmir get much bloodier *
Aug 5th 2010 | srinagar 

*BEARING the stiffening corpse of Anees Ganai, a 17-year-old boy, thousands of Kashmiri men marched on Srinagars gaudy, 15th-century main mosque on August 3rd. Anees! Your blood will start a revolution! they chanted, adding the refrain of Kashmiris, Azadi!, Freedom![/B] During two months of violent protests in Indian-controlled Kashmir the mosque had been barred to stop crowds gathering. The killing of around 45 people in that timeincluding 29 in the past weekmost shot by police, suggests that the policy failed. As the mob surged, the police drew back.

Even by its turbulent standards, the Indian-held portion of Kashmir is in chaos. Each day, defying curfews, crowds in Srinagar and several outlying districts gather to pelt stones at police. A paramilitary bunker near the line dividing Indian from Pakistani Kashmir was ransacked this week, and a police station torched. The local economy is choked, as so often in two decades of insurgency and protests. The road to Srinagar is closed and supplies of blood, medicine and baby milk are short.

This is becoming seasonal. Since 2008, when a row over land given to Hindu pilgrims sparked the biggest anti-India demonstrations in two decades, Kashmir has seen annual summer unrest. Last years was provoked by the killing of a woman and a girlgang-raped and murdered by the police, said locals, accidentally drowned, said the government. This years was sparked by the death of another youth, Tufail Ahmed Mattoo, brained by a tear-gas canister on his way from class.

The protests may peter out. Indias central government has sent an extra 30,000 troops to reinforce its armies in Kashmir. This week the states chief minister, Omar Abdullah, visited Delhi to beg for more. And with Kashmirs apple harvest fast approaching, its farmers, who produce 60% of Indias apples, will need to get their crop to market. But if Kashmiris choose to put down their stones, it may not be for long.

What could break the cycle? The government sees the answer in better local services and more jobs. But it would, having long denied the great extent to which Kashmiris want rid of India. While the insurgency raged, backed by Pakistan, the government could blame its neighbour. But as fighting eased and protests rose, blaming Pakistan got much harder. Kashmiri separatist aspirations are the heart of the problem, as Mr Abdullah hinted in Delhi, by calling for a political solution to it. 
Short of separation, which would be impossible even if a third of Kashmir were not in Pakistan, it is hard to know what could satisfy Kashmiris. A few obvious things would help. India could stop its soldiers shooting protesters. It could repeal the draconian powers its forces enjoy and move garrisons from town centres. These measures have been discussed, yet nothing is done: because of opposition from security forces, the usual official Indian sloth and a (more forgivable) reluctance to trust that the proxy war with Pakistan is over.

The wretched state of Kashmir serves as a pretext for Pakistani hostility to India. This makes war more likely and incites Islamist militants. Hence Barack Obamas proposal, on the presidential campaign trail, to appoint a special envoy to Kashmir. And hence David Miliband, Britains then foreign minister, suggesting a connection last year between terrorism in India and its occupation of Kashmir. India responded by expressing strong displeasure to both.

That may, subconsciously perhaps, have encouraged David Cameron, Britains prime minister, to suggest that some in Pakistan export terrorism, and sometimes help Afghanistans Taliban. He was right. Yet this has riled Pakistan no end. Urging Mr Cameron to show more balance, Pakistans prime minister, Yusuf Raza Gilani, naturally referred him to the ongoing misery in Indian-occupied Kashmir. 

Violence in Indian Kashmir: A cyclical problem | The Economist*


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## Break the Silence

BATMAN said:


> ^^To whom are you reffering?
> sentence which you quoted, no where claimed of destroying india!
> so, why not save your advice for your self and those who claim to nuke Pakistan?
> 
> Killing Kashmiris is fun activity for you inidans.
> Look how much is she smilling while taking aim at Kashmiri children!!!!



Well, Indian President have such guts to handle a gun also...but wat abt your prez...okey dont want to get into troll war..I have started this thread to discuss among people, what they think about these kind of steps taken by young mps.. not for trolling by you or others...
This thread is not about killing of kashmiris...better to stick with topic.
I also request my Indian friends to just ignore such kind of bs.


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## Iggy

BATMAN said:


> ^^To whom are you reffering?
> sentence which you quoted, no where claimed of destroying india!
> so, why not save your advice for your self and those who claim to nuke Pakistan?
> 
> Killing Kashmiris is fun activity for you inidans.
> *Look how much is she smilling while taking aim at Kashmiri children!!!!*



Yupz she killed a dozen of them on each visit to Kashmir..its her favouraite past time..dude really..whats wrong with you??


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

seiko said:


> Yupz she killed a dozen of them on each visit to Kashmir..its her favouraite past time..dude really..whats wrong with you??



*It good that I have certain ppl on my ignore list ...so i don't have to read through his  comments ..but damn you guys!!*


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## Undivided Kashmir

RIP to all the departed souls.


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## Break the Silence

What a tragedy!!! Rest in peace !!


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## Undivided Kashmir

Discussing a blog itself is pretty useless, as it shows the bloggers partiality and his prejudicied views.


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## Dash

They are just tiring themselves....


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## dabong1

Dash said:


> First of all ...Its NOT a law. Its a proposed action plan.
> 
> But who created the plan, when it was created?, what does it signifies now need to be discussed before you claim it to be a law....
> Tell me your thoughts about it..



Well the indians took the issue to the UN and not pakistan......answer your question?


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## Dash

dabong1 said:


> Well the indians took the issue to the UN and not pakistan......answer your question?


No it doesnt!!, doesnt matter who took the issue to the UN, but we hardly cry about it. There are people out here who crib about it.

and we are actually not the ones who took the issue to UN.
We only facilitated an already subduding idea.

But we didnt make it as law, the proposed action plan was however didnt include any of us who are actually involved.


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## Hulk

Today was silent day and agents are meeting today. They are palnning how to get few more innocent killed and get their motive forward. One thing I appreciate this plan is way better than terrorism as it works against us.


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## dabong1

Peshwa said:


> Unlike some of our neighbors, we are not in the business of donating land to a potential big boss to buy their friendship....



Indias claims of Pakistan ceding territory in 1963 are false

NEW DELHI: Prominent lawyer AG Noorani has rebuffed the impression created by the Indian government, and widely accepted by Kashmiri leaders, that Pakistan ceded some Kashmiri territory to China in 1963.

At an Indo-Pak peace conference on Monday, Peoples Conference Chairman Sajjad Ghani Lone had accused Pakistan of gifting Kashmiri territory to China. A few years ago, Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front chief Amanullah Khan had levelled similar allegations. Separatists have recently picked up the issue and demanded Beijings involvement in the Kashmir dispute. Based on documentary and archival evidence, Pakistan did not cede any land. On the contrary, it was China which ceded 750 square miles of administered territory to Pakistan under the Pakistan-China boundary agreement of March 3, 1963, Noorani told Daily Times.

He said according to Article 2 of the agreement, after the settlement of the Kashmir dispute between Pakistan and India, the sovereign authority concerned will reopen negotiations about the boundary with the Chinese government of the Peoples Republic of China. iftikhar gilani
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-1-2010_pg7_40


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## dabong1

karan.1970 said:


> You asked a question.. I answered with an example (4 in a day). Now you are changing the context...You implied that India uses lethal force against rioters only in Kashmir and I gave an example to prove it wrong.. thats it..




Nobodys changing the context.......your giving isolated incident in india and trying to compare them to the mass killings in kashmir.


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## dabong1

Dash said:


> No it doesnt!!, doesnt matter who took the issue to the UN,



Oh yes it does.......if pakistan had taken the issue to the UN i can understand the indians being a bit negative on the issue but you took the issue to the UN.




Dash said:


> and we are actually not the ones who took the issue to UN.
> We only facilitated an already subduding idea.



Alright......you "facilitated" the kasmir issue going to the UN.......that changes everything





Dash said:


> But we didnt make it as law, the proposed action plan was however didnt include any of us who are actually involved.



The international community wants the people of kashmir to choose there future..........we always hear how much kashmirs love india and hate pakistan so you guys should have no trouble in winning the vote....will you?


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## Dash

> The international community wants the people of kashmir to choose there future..........we always hear how much kashmirs



Where does the international community say that it wants people of kashmir to choose their future??.

1.United Nations Security Council Resolution 1172 tacitly accepts India's stand regarding all outstanding issues between India and Pakistan and urges the need to resolve the dispute through mutual dialogue and does not call for a plebiscite.
2.The first resolution 47 of UN did say that Pakistan to withdraw military presence and India to mainatin limited presence.

That never happened.
So where do you see we can settele this.
And more over the international council doesnt even bother about Kashmir.

You know the wind that blows towards India do you?...



> Alright......you "facilitated" the kasmir issue going to the UN.......that changes everything



And there is nothing wrong in facilitating as nothing will change, Has it ever???


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## fsone

Why do Pakistanis always get so jumpy on Kashmir developments in India. They have also other brothers and sisters and children in a lot of other places in their country which are existing in much more fearful and much worse security conditions everyday. 

Why not first take care of our own country before telling other country about their problems. Please do not mind but I see more hatred from Pakistanis here against India than the sympathy for their own countrymen who need more help. so I mentioned.


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## karan.1970

dabong1 said:


> Nobodys changing the context.......your giving isolated incident in india and trying to compare them to the mass killings in kashmir.



40 or so in a month vs 4 in a day.. Take it as you may...


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## fawwaxs

*Female Protesters in J&K put Security Forces in Fix *

Srinagar: Breaking News! The Jammu & Kashmir government and the security forces are in a tight fix, as the mass protests in the valley now comprise of women. The women protesters have come to the streets, leaving thesecurity forces anxious.

At least 46 people were killed in Jammu & Kashmir in the last two months or so. *Although only two women were killed in the violence,* the rising number women joining the demonstrations these days, has been a matter of concern.

According to AFP, women protesters had a message -* "Kill us before you kill our young boys and girls"*. Most of the victims in J&K violence were youth.

*Surprisingly, the young women and girls are now leading the protests in several places. They wear salwar kameez dresses and even carry sticks and stones. They look fearless and demand freedom with a slogan "blood for blood"*.

The protesters wanted to exploit the situation in Jammu & Kashmir. They put the women and young boys in front of the demonstrations so that thesecurity forces don't hit back hard.


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## Hulk

Definetly it means more work to done by us and we will do it.

About land even if we have to scarifice/kill millions let's be prepared for it. Better Kashmir's understand Independence is not an option for them else they are one who will suffer.


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## Justin Joseph

I think these current foreign funded protest are good for India.

*As govt will be forced to act. It will boost India as 26/11 Mumbai attack have being a catalyst to strengthening our security and military. 

Or chinese incursion are helping as they are forcing govt. to prepare the infrastructure and military for china.*


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## GreenStar

> I think these current foreign funded protest are good for India.
> 
> As govt will be forced to act. It will boost India as 26/11 Mumbai attack have being a catalyst to strengthening our security and military.
> 
> Or chinese incursion are helping as they are forcing govt. to prepare the infrastructure and military for china.



The issues you have brought up Justin, I believe will not solve the problem at hand. There is no reason to start an arm race......as that will be following in the footsteps off the cold war......it would cause unnecessary tension in the region. India is not attacking the core issue of the problem, which seems to propell people to start rioting.......I think you need to engage in more dialogue with the Kashmiri people and try to answer there grievances


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## EjazR

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> *Hmmm, where are the protests? I don&#8217;t see any
> *
> For your info, AJ&K, parliamentary system was introduced and Prime Minister, as the Chief Executive of the State, was elected by the majority of the votes of the Legislative Assembly. They have their own independent Supreme Court and High Court. The Ministry of Kashmir affairs and Gilgit Baltistan affairs serves as a link between the Government of Pakistan and the Government of Azad Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> Credibility seems to be no issue, since it isn&#8217;t our policy to oppress and subjugate them to curfews and extra-judicial killings.



Maybe time to go visit AJK and visit the common people instead ofthe army barracks?

FYI, and there are many such articles and reports fromHR organisations. Just because they are not highlighted in the Pakistani media doesn't mean they don't exist.

There is a reason why HR organisations cite Pakistani Kashmir as not free butIndian Kashmir as partly free.

The Other Face Of ISI By Zafar Iqbal

28 January, 2010
Countercurrents.org

It has become an established tradition and social custom in Pakistan controlled Kashmir to express the solidarity with the people of other side of divided State through public processions on different occasions which are considered basic feature and necessary demand of local politics. Since the beginning of insurgency in Indian Kashmir, all major cities and towns in Pakistani part of the State have witnessed hundreds of enthusiastic demonstrations &#8216;to condemn human rights violations in Indian Kashmir&#8217;. These men- led processions rarely show any participation of women , except scant events arranged by non governmental organizations and other campaigners, which occasionally include school children and university girls, but, recently Muzaffarabad-the capital of Pakistan administrated Kashmir sparked with protest demonstrations against the human rights violations by Pakistan&#8217;s security agency- Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) whom officials were blamed for detention and torture of four local citizens. Hundreds of veil- clad old aged women and young girls took protest rallies against, what they called &#8216;atrocities of the ISI by tortoruring and kidnapping our sons and brothers&#8217;. At the first time in the history of the region, streets and roads of Muzaffarabad echoed with the feminist but vociferous slogans against the ISI and government of Azad Jammu and Kashmir.

Previously, a rise of demonstrations of traders, students, lawyers and civil society groups were witnessed in the area. The protestors alleged that officials of the premier intelligence agency of Pakistan, which during the recent years have been criticized in home and abroad for its alleged extra judicial activities, have started harassing and abducting locals in Pakistani part of Kashmir. They blatantly accused the agency for interference in private matters of the public and also the intervention of Pakistan&#8217;s another security force-the Frontier Constabulary(FC), which has powers of working only in the jurisdiction of Pakistan&#8217;s troubled northern province, NWFP.

Profound resentment and anger in the citizens of Pakistani Kashmir started when a Lieutenant Colonel of ISI based in Peshawar, NWFP in Pakistan detained and tortured four Kashmiri youths following a petty financial dispute between a local citizen and one of the relative of the former, it was accused by the family and agitators. As per details obtained by this writer, On November 21, 2009 Lt Col Hamza, accompanied by ten staffers of the FC, went to the residence of Pervez who has borrowed money from a family member of the former. The agency&#8217;s senior officer took one young nephew to local police station and then made him hostage in Peshawar when Pervez was not found at home. Lately, four other young friends of the abducted boy -Ali Rathore, Raja Qayyum and Shafiq Butt were also taken away by the Colonel who lately informed the family on telephone that abductees would only be released if Pervaiz is handed over to Colonel.

After few days of the incident one of the abductees- Ali Rathore-22, was released in ill health who revealed shocking details of brutal treatment which was committed under the custody of the ISI officials. He was warned against publicising the details of his friend's capture by the perpetrators. Meanwhile, the Colonel repeatedly continued threatening the family members that remaining prisoners would be tortured more ruthlessly if details of the arrest were released in the media or to the public, however, the news of arrest of locals spread in the town like a fire and people started agitation against the state torture and abduction. Officials of both ageincies have been contacted to know their vision about the issue; however, any reply is not received till filing this script.

*Meanwhile, people&#8217;s anger and animosity engulfed other cities like Bagh, Mirpur and Rawalakot in Pakistani Kashmir where furious speakers, especially dissent nationalists groups criticized &#8216;the excessive measures&#8217; of Pakistani intelligence agencies against the people of Kashmir. Some observers term this development as a dangerous blunder of Pakistan&#8217; stalwarts in security regime, which are already, engaged in a deadly war in NWFP and Baluchistan regions against the Taliban militants and Baloch separatists.*

After this incident a large section of local population in Pakistani Kashmir believe that this fresh ridiculous clanger of Pakistan&#8217;s security spies has turned Muzaffarabad into Srinagar. Local political parties, human rights groups and defenders of civil liberties also have written letters and appeals to the premier of Azad Jammu and Kashmir and Chief Justice of region&#8217;s highest court to intervene the matter but these appeals went in vain.

*According to observers, this situation questions the so called indpendent status and authority of local administration and government of Azad Jammu and Kashmir which constitutionally holds a separate position in Pakistan&#8217;s state system, nevertheless, Islamabad has overwhelming influence and powers in the political affairs and administrative matters of the area.*

Here, it is pertinent to quote the recent observations of Hong Kong based Asian Human rights Commission, which, denouncing anti people activities of the ISI in Pakistani Kashmir says that this recent occurrence &#8220;exposes the limit to Kashmir officials' authority over the ISI&#8221;. The AHRC is also calling for intervention of UN Special Rapporteur over detention and torture of these missing persons in Pakistani part of Kashmir.

(The writer is Executive Director of Press For Peace (PFP). He can be accessed via: Press for Peace )

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## GreenStar

> Why do Pakistanis always get so jumpy on Kashmir developments in India.



That's because many Pakistanis have relatives in India held Kashmir.....so they have concerns for there well being.......that is understandable, in my opinion.


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## sensenreason

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I have a great idea! Hold a plebicite, let the people decide their fates; and then peace may prevail!
> 
> WoW! Sounds like a great ''trade'' to me



Im sure you understand that its unacceptable to India...for various reasons....so whats your second solution?....or lets say a Win-Win solution...plebiscite..only one side wins.


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## Peshwa

dabong1 said:


> Indias claims of Pakistan ceding territory in 1963 are false
> 
> NEW DELHI: Prominent lawyer AG Noorani has rebuffed the impression created by the Indian government, and widely accepted by Kashmiri leaders, that Pakistan ceded some Kashmiri territory to China in 1963.
> 
> At an Indo-Pak peace conference on Monday, Peoples Conference Chairman Sajjad Ghani Lone had accused Pakistan of gifting Kashmiri territory to China. A few years ago, Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front chief Amanullah Khan had levelled similar allegations. Separatists have recently picked up the issue and demanded Beijings involvement in the Kashmir dispute. Based on documentary and archival evidence, Pakistan did not cede any land. On the contrary, it was China which ceded 750 square miles of administered territory to Pakistan under the Pakistan-China boundary agreement of March 3, 1963, Noorani told Daily Times.
> 
> He said according to Article 2 of the agreement, after the settlement of the Kashmir dispute between Pakistan and India, the sovereign authority concerned will reopen negotiations about the boundary with the Chinese government of the Peoples Republic of China. iftikhar gilani
> http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-1-2010_pg7_40



Wonder what happened to the concept of neutral links that Pakistanis harp on 24-7?

Heres an article from a neutral source....though Im sure CNN too Im assuming is anti-Pak, Zionist and RAW controlled....nevertheless....



> (CNN) -- It may be nothing but an ice desert with little geographical, economic or military value but the dotted red line of disputed territory still encompasses a slice of Tibetan plateau known as Aksai Chin.
> 
> This area, which is about 20 percent of the whole of Kashmir, belongs neither to India or Pakistan but the region's other nuclear superpower -- China.
> 
> As Beijing's southern neighbors mass troops in a potentially explosive standoff, China peers over the towering peaks and glaciers of the Himalayas nervously.
> 
> Chinese foreign policy spokesmen have been careful not to take sides in their statements on Kashmir -- the memory of a brief but brutal war in 1962 was precipitated by China's actions in this very sector.
> 
> *It culminated in China seizing about 38,000 square kilometers (14,670 sq mile) of Indian territory in Aksai Chin, as well as another 5,180 sq km (2,000 sq miles) of northern Kashmir that Pakistan later ceded to Beijing under a 1963 pact. *
> 
> Regional analysts say that the area is so remote that India's intelligence service didn't learn that China had established a road through the area until the following decade.



CNN.com - Aksai Chin: China's disputed slice of Kashmir - May 24, 2002


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## Amit12

*their is nothing gonna happen by this protest .... 
first of all these protest are funded by terrorist .... and none of the country have dare to say about Indian internal matter so how much Pakistan want to cry they can but outcome is a big 0*


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## EjazR

*The Associated Press: Flash floods kill 103 in Indian-held Kashmir*

SRINAGAR, India &#8212; A sudden downpour and flash floods swept away houses and killed at least 103 people in Indian-controlled Kashmir's normally arid, mountainous region of Ladakh, officials said Friday.

At least 370 people were injured, and troops were pulling survivors from knee-deep mud and rubble Friday in the popular Himalayan tourist destination. The deluge came as neighboring Pakistan suffered from the worst flooding in decades, with millions displaced and 1,500 dead.

The airport in Leh, the main town in Ladakh, was damaged, most communications were cut and rescue efforts were being hampered by gushing water and debris, state police chief Kuldeep Khoda said.

It was still unclear how many people have been left homeless, but Khoda said at least 2,000 displaced people had been housed in two government-run shelters.

"Mud and water is everywhere," said Kashmiri businessman Kausar Makhdoomi, who was on holiday in Leh.

Makhdoomi said the rainfall started before midnight and that water later started coursing down mountains. The flooding had damaged several homes and other buildings by Friday morning, he said.

"There was utter confusion and people started to panic," he said.

Ladakh, about 280 miles (450 kilometers) east of Srinagar, is a popular destination for Western tourists, particularly hikers, mountaineers and adventure sports enthusiasts. August is peak season with thousands flocking to the area.

Troops have rescued at least 100 foreign tourists, mostly Europeans, from Pang, a village about 75 miles (120 kilometers) northeast of Leh town, army spokesman Lt. Col. J.S. Brar said. No tourist deaths have so far been reported.

The flooding also damaged telephone towers and highways leading to the region, Brar said in Srinagar, the main city in India's portion of Kashmir.

One of the worst hit areas was low-lying Choglamsar village on the outskirts of Leh, where houses and buildings have been swept away and soldiers were pulling survivors from mud, Brar said. Floods had badly affected villages within a 60-square mile (150 sq. kilometer) radius of Choglamsar, he said.

The floods damaged highways leading to Leh, making it difficult for trucks with relief supplies to enter Ladakh and tourists to get out of the area.

"Roads have been washed away and wherever they are intact, sheets of mud have covered them making them difficult for use," Brar said.

At least three army bases were hit by flood waters. Two soldiers were missing and nearly 14 were injured, Brar said. Khoda said that at least three policemen had been killed during rescue operations.

Ladakh is a high-altitude desert, with a stark moonscape-like terrain, about 11,500 feet (3,500 meters) above sea level. It normally experiences very low precipitation.

A largely Buddhist area, it has been untouched by two months of anti-India civil unrest by Kashmiri Muslims that has gripped large swaths of Indian Kashmir for nearly two months. At least 49 people have died in the violence.

Explaining the devastating impact of the sudden rains, Prof. Shakeel Romshoo, a geologist at Kashmir University in Srinagar, said new rivulets had cut deep channels in the mountain gorges and flood waters had inundated low-lying areas.

"It's a challenging topography with steep and unstable slopes. Water flow and velocity being very high, the flash floods have caused huge damage," he said.

Telecommunication towers across the region have either fallen or been badly damaged. The main highway linking Leh to the nearby holiday resort of Manali was blocked by landslides. Poor weather has made it impossible for even helicopters to fly into Ladakh with relief supplies.

Khoda said police and the army have launched a massive rescue operation but were also trying to restore communications.


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## Iggy

^^^ this is going to hurt some people here


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## GreenStar

> Im sure you understand that its unacceptable to India...for various reasons....so whats your second solution?....or lets say a Win-Win solution...plebiscite..only one side wins.



Why can't you hold a plebiscite......doesn't India claim to be a democratic country.....if so then have a referendum and let the people chose in what they want, wheather it be joining Pakistan, or staying with India......it's as simple as that, its nothing to do with who win's.....as the people opinions matter the most.


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## BATMAN

Why indian security agencies are clearly breaking the rules and than blame it on ISI!


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> The issues you have brought up Justin, I believe will not solve the problem at hand. There is no reason to start an arm race......as that will be following in the footsteps off the cold war......it would cause unnecessary tension in the region. India is not attacking the core issue of the problem, which seems to propell people to start rioting.......I think you need to engage in more dialogue with the Kashmiri people and try to answer there grievances



i think India needs to do both. The 2nd one, more urgently.. It seem to have begun too..

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## GreenStar

> first of all these protest are funded by terrorist



Do you have proof to back up this statement.


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## Awesome

Pride said:


> I dont know if foriegn media reports it properly for Kashmir but our media always raises concern for both the side. If you are not agreed with me, Please look past 3-4 days news paper "The Hindu". The only point is they don't and won't write your POV which is no where near the reality.
> 
> Regarding unrest in Kashmir, It will always be on untill there are few democratic leaders leave blindfold of religion and Independance for their political profit and come on to table for discussion as well as insurgency from neighbours will stop. Remember one point, This will always be 2 way discussion between separatist leaders & GoI and will not included Pakistan on the same.


Well as far as your media is concerned, its raising the concern more of a "OMG, Kashmiris are protesting against us, how do we stop it". Whereas they should be going like "OMG we have finally seen the light the Kashmiris hate us, how do we accept their demands?"


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> Why can't you hold a plebiscite......doesn't India claim to be a democratic country.....if so then have a referendum and let the people chose in what they want, wheather it be joining Pakistan, or staying with India......it's as simple as that, its nothing to do with who win's.....as the people opinions matter the most.



Democracy and Plebiscite has no co relation. If at all, being a democractic country, India can not allow a plebiscite unless the parliament of India accepts it by majority vote..Which in my view is more difficult than impossible


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## GreenStar

> i think India needs to do both. The 2nd one, more urgently.. It seem to have begun too..



This is the type of Attitude India should adopt....so that it will have less problems to attend to in Kashmir.........because end of the day, the people are the most important thing that should be looked upon.


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## GreenStar

> Which in my view is more difficult than impossible



Why is it difficult Karan...sorry I'm not that knowledgable in Indian Politics.


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## Amit12

GreenStar said:


> Do you have proof to back up this statement.



first of all m just fresher so m mot able to post any link
and secondly you are from Pakistan so how can you believe any Indian source 

just go and google it you will find out the truth


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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> Well as far as your media is concerned, its raising the concern more of a "OMG, Kashmiris are protesting against us, how do we stop it". Whereas they should be going like "OMG we have finally seen the light the Kashmiris hate us, how do we accept their demands?"



No.. They should be talking about how to integrate Kashmiris in India better. 

The question of *how *only comes if *what *is accepted, and your version of *What *is as far as it gets from reality

No need for the OMG..


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## Hulk

Weather there is protest or not the area is still disputed and Pakistan has also not conducted and plebescite there, guess if there are takers of protest there we should fund them.


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## EjazR

^^^^Because that is not how we treat our people who are upset with us.

Do you expect the Pakistanis to agree and take a similar line in Balochistan?

I fail to understand how Pakistanis can't fathom how deeply connected the Kashimir issue is to India. Itsnot the US in Vietnam thousands of miles away or the Russians in Afghanistan in a land where they don't share their langauge or religion.

That is why Kashmir is still a part of India when both the "superpowers" had to withdraw.

The Indian media should rightly raise matters of human concern, the HR violations the unnecessary para military prescence now that militancy has reduced and the lack of use on Non-Lethal crowd control techniques among other things.

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## GreenStar

> and secondly you are from Pakistan so how can you believe any Indian source



First of all I'm British......so don't confuse your self.....second when you have a debate its always good to get sources that is not from the parties involved.....but I don't mind if you get Indian sources.



> just go and google it you will find out the truth



You shouldn't make a statement that you can't back up......I asked for proof because you boldly said that somebody is funding these protest, so its your duty to provide the sources.


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## ek_indian

I fail to believe we are actually discussing not a report, not a media article, not a statement....but fancy of a member!!

Oh yes, I agree with EjazR statement.


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## sensenreason

GreenStar said:


> Why can't you hold a plebiscite......doesn't India claim to be a democratic country.....if so then have a referendum and let the people chose in what they want, wheather it be joining Pakistan, or staying with India......it's as simple as that, its nothing to do with who win's.....as the people opinions matter the most.



Democracy is not supposed to have the option to separate from the country the system is supposed to allow you to choose amongst the countries political parties..ie Congress, BJP etc....

No where in the world the process allows you to separate your land from homeland....If California wants to not be a part of USA..it cannot simply hold a referendum and separate (theoretically..yes)...

Its alright to sit on your high horse and talk about self determination..its another to realise that India has legitimate rights to J & K..whoch you dispute but that its in its interest to keep J & K ..you cannot dispute that...

Are you okay with Sindh or Balochi's having a separate country? In theory you might be ok...but then it will make Pakistan land locked...ie if you lose Karachi...is that in your interest?

Is it not democracy that 7-8 lac people of Valley should work in the interest of 100 cr Indians?...afterall majority view counts in democracies..its just a matter of who you poll !

Its a different matter that public opinion is starting to turn in favour of a political settlement in Kashmir...which is good news for all.


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## GreenStar

> Its alright to sit on your high horse and talk about self determination..its another to realise that India has legitimate rights to J & K.



And why do you have legitimate rights to Kashmir....when its people clearly don't want to be apart of India......you are holding them in a hostage style situation. When you rape and kill there people, does it still give you the right to govern them.



> Are you okay with Sindh or Balochi's having a separate country? In theory you might be ok...but then it will make Pakistan land locked...ie if you lose Karachi...is that in your interest?]



You are going off topic this thread is about India killing Kashmir's......however in my opinion honestly if Pakistan was doing that in Sindh or Balochistan......then the people have a right to have a separate state.....as clearly the goverment is not fit to rule over them......just like India is not fit to rule over Kashmir because of its human right's violations.


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## Awesome

Indians deflecting topics to Balochistan, the moon and Mars are all a sign of wimps, and I have nothing to talk to them. Be a man, don't try to derail a thread .

The problem I have is with the NY Times and Washington Posts of the world. For the past 10 years I've been hearing one big statement after the other against Pakistan. Sometimes we're ranked worse than Afghanistan, sometimes the world's most dangerous place, we're in cahoots with the Taliban, Osama is in Quetta, is in Karachi, is in FATA... I mean god dammit, we're the centre of the universe if the story was told by these news agencies.

What about India? All the BS about Kashmiris being a part of India has come shattering down, why is the western media thunder totally mum? The BBC, the CNN, they are all giving only passing remarks like "Oh btw, in other news, there's something happening in Kashmir too".

When that kid, Prince, fell in a manhole in India, that got more news coverage than the months long protests against the Indian state. What does that tell you about the credibility of these organizations?


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## rohailmalhi

EjazR said:


> Maybe time to go visit AJK and visit the common people instead ofthe army barracks?
> 
> FYI, and there are many such articles and reports fromHR organisations. Just because they are not highlighted in the Pakistani media doesn't mean they don't exist.
> 
> There is a reason why HR organisations cite Pakistani Kashmir as not free butIndian Kashmir as partly free.
> 
> The Other Face Of ISI By Zafar Iqbal
> 
> 28 January, 2010
> Countercurrents.org
> 
> It has become an established tradition and social custom in Pakistan controlled Kashmir to express the solidarity with the people of other side of divided State through public processions on different occasions which are considered basic feature and necessary demand of local politics. Since the beginning of insurgency in Indian Kashmir, all major cities and towns in Pakistani part of the State have witnessed hundreds of enthusiastic demonstrations to condemn human rights violations in Indian Kashmir. These men- led processions rarely show any participation of women , except scant events arranged by non governmental organizations and other campaigners, which occasionally include school children and university girls, but, recently Muzaffarabad-the capital of Pakistan administrated Kashmir sparked with protest demonstrations against the human rights violations by Pakistans security agency- Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) whom officials were blamed for detention and torture of four local citizens. Hundreds of veil- clad old aged women and young girls took protest rallies against, what they called atrocities of the ISI by tortoruring and kidnapping our sons and brothers. At the first time in the history of the region, streets and roads of Muzaffarabad echoed with the feminist but vociferous slogans against the ISI and government of Azad Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> Previously, a rise of demonstrations of traders, students, lawyers and civil society groups were witnessed in the area. The protestors alleged that officials of the premier intelligence agency of Pakistan, which during the recent years have been criticized in home and abroad for its alleged extra judicial activities, have started harassing and abducting locals in Pakistani part of Kashmir. They blatantly accused the agency for interference in private matters of the public and also the intervention of Pakistans another security force-the Frontier Constabulary(FC), which has powers of working only in the jurisdiction of Pakistans troubled northern province, NWFP.
> 
> Profound resentment and anger in the citizens of Pakistani Kashmir started when a Lieutenant Colonel of ISI based in Peshawar, NWFP in Pakistan detained and tortured four Kashmiri youths following a petty financial dispute between a local citizen and one of the relative of the former, it was accused by the family and agitators. As per details obtained by this writer, On November 21, 2009 Lt Col Hamza, accompanied by ten staffers of the FC, went to the residence of Pervez who has borrowed money from a family member of the former. The agencys senior officer took one young nephew to local police station and then made him hostage in Peshawar when Pervez was not found at home. Lately, four other young friends of the abducted boy -Ali Rathore, Raja Qayyum and Shafiq Butt were also taken away by the Colonel who lately informed the family on telephone that abductees would only be released if Pervaiz is handed over to Colonel.
> 
> After few days of the incident one of the abductees- Ali Rathore-22, was released in ill health who revealed shocking details of brutal treatment which was committed under the custody of the ISI officials. He was warned against publicising the details of his friend's capture by the perpetrators. Meanwhile, the Colonel repeatedly continued threatening the family members that remaining prisoners would be tortured more ruthlessly if details of the arrest were released in the media or to the public, however, the news of arrest of locals spread in the town like a fire and people started agitation against the state torture and abduction. Officials of both ageincies have been contacted to know their vision about the issue; however, any reply is not received till filing this script.
> 
> *Meanwhile, peoples anger and animosity engulfed other cities like Bagh, Mirpur and Rawalakot in Pakistani Kashmir where furious speakers, especially dissent nationalists groups criticized the excessive measures of Pakistani intelligence agencies against the people of Kashmir. Some observers term this development as a dangerous blunder of Pakistan stalwarts in security regime, which are already, engaged in a deadly war in NWFP and Baluchistan regions against the Taliban militants and Baloch separatists.*
> 
> After this incident a large section of local population in Pakistani Kashmir believe that this fresh ridiculous clanger of Pakistans security spies has turned Muzaffarabad into Srinagar. Local political parties, human rights groups and defenders of civil liberties also have written letters and appeals to the premier of Azad Jammu and Kashmir and Chief Justice of regions highest court to intervene the matter but these appeals went in vain.
> 
> *According to observers, this situation questions the so called indpendent status and authority of local administration and government of Azad Jammu and Kashmir which constitutionally holds a separate position in Pakistans state system, nevertheless, Islamabad has overwhelming influence and powers in the political affairs and administrative matters of the area.*
> 
> Here, it is pertinent to quote the recent observations of Hong Kong based Asian Human rights Commission, which, denouncing anti people activities of the ISI in Pakistani Kashmir says that this recent occurrence exposes the limit to Kashmir officials' authority over the ISI. The AHRC is also calling for intervention of UN Special Rapporteur over detention and torture of these missing persons in Pakistani part of Kashmir.
> 
> (The writer is Executive Director of Press For Peace (PFP). He can be accessed via: Press for Peace )



Yeah we dont have protest here and Our Army dont kill innocent Kashmiris and tehn label them as terrorists and dont rape the Muslims Kashmirs women . There is alot of difference between Indian occupied Kashmir and Pakistani Kashmir .

Kashmirs here are more prosperous as compared to Kashmir brothers in Indian Held Kashmir. so there is really no comparison between two.................


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## EjazR

*Make sure no child is killed in Kashmir, women's group urges - Hindustan Times*

"Why has Kashmir lost children to a conflict they don't even understand?" a women's organization that calls itself 'Mothers of India' asked on Friday and urged the government to stop innocent killings in the troubled valley. Calling for a "peaceful resolution to (the) mindless violence" in Jammu and Kashmir that has left nearly 50 people dead in three weeks, 'Mothers of India' called all mothers across India to "make sure that no child is killed in Kashmir, that no mother cries in silence and that violence does not beget more violence".

A statement from the outfit, with signatures from 100 women activists from across India, said the sound of mothers in Kashmir was not being heard even as they were crying "waiting for their children to return knowing that they may not. Wailing, as they wonder why their young ones were killed".

Striking an emotional chord with the bereaved mothers of the Kashmir Valley, it said, "Mothers all over the country need to demand answers. Why has Kashmir lost children to a conflict they don't even understand? We, the mothers, must raise our voices against any kind of extremism. After all we do not give birth to our children to see them killed brutally by bullets. How can we justify the violence on either side? How long can we be mute spectators and not respond to the pain of our sisters in Kashmir?"

"We need to raise our voices for dialogue and debate. We need to look at a peaceful resolution to this mindless violence."

The Mothers of India said the situation in Kashmir could still be retrieved if the government acknowledges that young people are feeling alienated. "Treating it as a law and order problem will only deepen conflict and alienation."

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## EjazR

*?Many mothers of my Kashmir will cry today? - Special Report - Sunday TOI - Home - The Times of India*

On June 30, Asif Rather, aged nine, ran out of his home in Baramulla in search of his older brother. Minutes later, he fell victim to a bullet fired by securitymen. He was just 150m from his front door. An elegy on the death of an innocent by Dr Syeda Hameed , writer and member of the Planning Commission

He stood at the sunlit door
A nine-year old with tousled hair
Asif Rather, student of class four,
Baramulla, 55 km from Srinagar
&#8216;Where is Touqeer?&#8217;
He sought his older brother.
&#8216;Nowhere! You come back now
Here&#8217;s tea and last night&#8217;s bread
My baby, let me comb your hair&#8217;
Outside, the sounds Allah o Akbar
Chanting at once, one thousand strong
&#8216;Mother, I&#8217;ll get him back&#8217;
&#8216;No child, Touqeer is big, he&#8217;s with friends
My youngest, you&#8217;re too small
See here is cream skimmed off the milk
Now come, you make me angry&#8217;
The little form at the sunlit door
Ran out, unheeding
The face appeared, smiling at the window pane
&#8216;Mother, you can&#8217;t be angry; I&#8217;ll make you cry today&#8217;
And he was gone
Outside the milling crowds of tall and lanky youth
And one lost boy in a forest of long legs
And long sticks cut from poplar trees
Some hands clutch roadside stones
&#8216;Touqeer!&#8217; he called out
Was that his blue shirt?
But there were hundreds in blue
He felt the tears well up
Quick jammed with grimy fists.
He stood confused, afraid, ashamed
&#8216;I should have had the milk and last night&#8217;s bread
So hungry and so far from Ma..
But Touqeer, where&#8217;s he?&#8217;
And then it burst
The tear gas shell tore his tender flesh
&#8216;Allah&#8217; he cried his small hand
warding off
the evil that drew blood.
The crowd stood still
A dozen hands reached out
To hold the falling body
His bullet broken neck
Gently rested on still hands
Of weeping boys
The tousled head of hair
Blood drenched, hung in strands
On a shining forehead...
And twisted in the sinews
of my mind
Are seven words
(Seven lines of Quran&#8217;s first Surah)
&#8216;Mother I will make you cry today&#8217;
How many mothers of my Kashmir
The place where I was born
Will cry today?
Will cry tomorrow?

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## GreenStar

> Is it not democracy that 7-8 lac people of Valley should work in the interest of 100 cr Indians?...afterall majority view counts in democracies..its just a matter of who you poll !



Not if they don't feel apart of India......furthermore just because India has a majority population does not give it a right to rape and kill Kashmiri people. Your goverment can't even bother to purchase water gun tanks, or more sophisticated means of subdueing people with out killing them........you have the money, but I suspect the Indian establishment is happy the way things our, which is the continuing suffering of the Kashmiri people.


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## GreenStar

> No where in the world the process allows you to separate your land from homeland....If California wants to not be a part of USA..it cannot simply hold a referendum and separate (theoretically..yes)...



At least America is not actively raping and killing its citizens in California.......shame the same can't be said about India.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

rohailmalhi said:


> Yeah *we dont have protest here and Our Army dont kill innocent* Kashmiris and tehn label them as terrorists and dont rape the Muslims Kashmirs women . There is alot of difference between Indian occupied Kashmir and Pakistani Kashmir .
> 
> Kashmirs here are more prosperous as compared to Kashmir brothers in Indian Held Kashmir. so there is really no comparison between two.................



*Check again...this is happening in pakistan...if you want I can dig out other incidents also.eg army killing in Swat.*

Three killed during protest in Swabi
PAKISTAN - 6 AUGUST 2010

PESHAWAR: A protest about cripping electricity cuts in Pakistan on Friday descended into a gunfight with police that left three civilians dead, officials said.

Clashes erupted in the northwestern town of Swabi after police detained the organiser of the demonstration, which brought together about 500 people.

&#8220;Protesters attacked police and opened fire after we detained the organiser of the rally. At least three people were killed and three others wounded in the exchange of fire,&#8221; local police official Mukhtiar Khan told AFP.

Another local police official, Suleman Khan, confirmed the casualties.

Pakistan faces a catastrophic energy crisis, making life unbearable and fuelling anger at a government already grappling with devastating flooding that has hit an estimated 4.5 million people and killed 1,600.

Officials from main power regulatory authority the Pakistan Electric Power Company say the country is only able to produce about 80 per cent of its electricity needs.

The shortfall has been blamed on corruption, short-sightedness, debts, a creaking distribution system and a lack of money to invest in renewable energy as demand grows.


Source: Dawn News


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## WAQAS119

*Police fire on protest in Kashmir, two dead*



SRINAGAR | Sun Aug 1, 2010 5:42pm IST 

*(Reuters) - At least two demonstrators died on Sunday when police opened fire on thousands of pro-independence protesters in the Muslim-majority Himalayan region of Kashmir.*

*India soldiers kill Kashmiri child in protests*

*Indian police shot dead a Kashmiri child in a fire on thousands of people protesting against Indian rule in the Himalayan region.*

Indian police on Saturday shot dead a Kashmiri child in a fire on thousands of people protesting against Indian rule in the Himalayan region.

Indian forces wounded 25 demonstrators.

Muslim-majority Kashmir has been rocked by a series of pro-independence protests in the last six weeks and at least 22 people, mostly protesters, have been killed by security forces.

The authorities have imposed an on-and-off curfew in Kashmir, at the core of a dispute between India and Pakistan.

Fresh demonstrations broke out on Saturday, a day after four protesters were killed and 75 injured in day-long clashes between stone-pelting protesters and government forces.

A teenage boy was killed during Saturday clashes, said Mohammad Usman, a doctor at a north Kashmir hospital.

Locals say the protests are spontaneous.

Kashmiris believe that there are similarities with Palestinians because of occupations in their territories. Kashmiris see India as "occupier" as Israel.

Tens of thousands of Muslims have been killed since pro-independent moves grew against Indian rule in 1989.

The Himalayan region is at the heart of a decades-long dispute between India and Pakistan, who have fought two of their three wars over the issue since they won freedom from British rule in 1947.

Kashmiris see India as an &#8220;occupier&#8221; and accuse the ruling of systematic violations, killing dozens of civilians in Himalayan region. 


Reuters


*India kills 9 Kashmiris in one day, death toll rises to 31*

Monday, 02 August 2010 11:21

*Indian forces killed at least nine Kashmiris in protests, increasing death toll to 31, officials and witnesses said.*

Indian forces killed at least nine Kashmiris in protests, increasing death toll to 31, officials and witnesses said.

It was the biggest death toll in a single day in the latest wave of pro-independence protests in Kashmir.

Four people, including a girl, died from bullet wounds when police opened fire on protesters, while five others died in a blast after protesters set fire to a police station stored with explosives.

Kashmiris see India as an &#8220;occupier&#8221; and accuse the ruling of systematic violations, killing dozens of civilians in Himalayan region. 

At least 150 people were injured during attacks of Indian forces in Kashmir where all the deaths happened on Sunday.

"So far four people have died of bullet wounds and five have died when an ammunition dump went off after an angry mob torched a police camp," a senior police officer, who did not want to be named, told Reuters. 

The latest deaths brought thousands of people out into the streets in Pampore and other neighbouring areas shouting: "Go India go!, We want freedom!"

Tens of thousands of police and paramilitary soldiers in riot gear patrolled deserted streets across Kashmir where a curfew was imposed during weeks, witnesses said.

The Himalayan region is at the heart of a decades-long dispute between India and Pakistan, who have fought two of their three wars over the issue since they won freedom from British rule in 1947.

"Chief Minister Omar Abdullah appealed to all sections of the society to extend their wholehearted cooperation in restoration of peace and normalcy in the valley," a government statement said.

Pro-Indian chief Abdullah was reported to fly to New Delhi over the bloody incidents.

Tens of thousands of Muslims have been killed since pro-independent moves grew against Indian rule in 1989. 

In 1948, the United Nations adopted a resolution calling for a referendum for Kashmir to determine whether the Himalayan region should be part of India and Pakistan. But India has rejected to hold referendum in Kashmiri territory. 

Indian security forces have been accused in the past of human rights violations, including rape and extrajudicial killings.


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## WAQAS119

*Nine killed in anti-India protests in Kashmir*

Nine killed in anti-India protests in Kashmir

SRINAGAR, India - At least nine people died in Indian Kashmir on Sunday in clashes between pro-independence protesters and police, officials and witnesses said.

It was the biggest death toll in a single day in the latest wave of protests in Kashmir which have strained relations between India and Pakistan.

Four people, including a girl, died from bullet injuries when police opened fire to quell a violent protest, while five others died in a blast after protesters set fire to a police station stored with explosives.

At least 35 people were injured in the blast in the Pampore area on the outskirts of Kashmirs summer capital Srinagar, where all the deaths happened during Sundays clashes.

So far four people have died of bullet wounds and five have died when an ammunition dump went off after an angry mob torched a police camp, a senior police officer, who did not want to be named, told Reuters. Another top police official also confirmed the deaths.

At least 27 people, mostly of them protesters throwing stones, have been killed by security forces over the past six weeks during the biggest demonstrations against Indian rule in two years.

The latest deaths brought thousands of people out into the streets in Pampore and other neighbouring areas shouting: Go India go!, We want freedom!, as they set fire to government buildings and police vehicles.

Tens of thousands of police and paramilitary soldiers in riot gear patrolled deserted streets across Kashmir and warned residents to stay indoors, witnesses said.

A separatist strike and security lock-down has dragged on for nearly a month-and-a-half in Kashmir, where thousands have been killed since an insurgency broke out in 1989.

Authorities have pleaded for calm.

Chief Minister Omar Abdullah appealed to all sections of the society to extend their wholehearted cooperation in restoration of peace and normalcy in the valley, a government statement said.

Unrest in Kashmir will complicate efforts to improve relations between New Delhi and Islamabad, as the two countries try to revive peace talks halted after the 2008 attack on Mumbai by Pakistan-based militants.

The nuclear-armed rivals have fought two of their three full-scale wars over Kashmir.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> Why is it difficult Karan...sorry I'm not that knowledgable in Indian Politics.



Simply because any political party that will give away a part of the country even an option to separate, will be thrown out forever by the Indian population. Also this will required a change in Indian constitution which even if we assume goes thru the parliament, will be immidiately challenged in the court by almost every citizen of India and will never be allowed to stay


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> And why do you have legitimate rights to Kashmir....when its people clearly don't want to be apart of India......you are holding them in a hostage style situation. When you rape and kill there people, does it still give you the right to govern them.
> 
> .



The biggest flaw in your arguement is of you vs them. Its the Kashmiris only who are leading Kashmir today. Now you can go the route of puppet state govt and so on, but then this was elected by the people of Kashmir only and that too by a higher percentage of voting than the country average. 

There have been worse protests in other parts of the country like TN and even Delhi over last few years.. I personally think its more of the excitement of our Pakistani friends that is driving this whole debate. Even Pakistani media is not carrying this a front page news...


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> Not if they don't feel apart of India......furthermore just because India has a majority population does not give it a right to rape and kill Kashmiri people. Your goverment can't even bother to purchase water gun tanks, or more sophisticated means of subdueing people with out killing them........you have the money, but I suspect the Indian establishment is happy the way things our, which is the continuing suffering of the Kashmiri people.



Your comment would carry weight if Indian govt was routinely using water guns etc in other areas but lethal bullets in Kashmir. If you really want to understand, go back thru the news to see how much of non lethal equipment in deployed in Kashmir.. Probably more than any other part of the country..


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## M82

RIP for the child and for everyone who were dead.

Why children are brought into protest??? these separatists using children and youngsters as shields?? or these separatists kill them and blame the security forces to fuel the protest??? security forces dont target someone and shoot to control protests... 

Security forces are not responsible for the death of the child, the child's parents are...

and *WAQAS119* can you prove your security forces didn't even a child so far in any operations??? if not then why you blame the security forces of India for the death...? is that your hate for India or your brain stopped working while posting???


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> At least America is not actively raping and killing its citizens in California.......shame the same can't be said about India.



Compare the numbers of reported Rapes in the Kashmir valley vs another similar area like ... say... NWFP which is not disputed, but has a similar situation in terms of military deployment etc...


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## dabong1

sensenreason said:


> Democracy is not supposed to have the option to separate from the country the system is supposed to allow you to choose amongst the countries political parties..ie Congress, BJP etc....
> 
> No where in the world the process allows you to separate your land from homeland....If California wants to not be a part of USA..it cannot simply hold a referendum and separate (theoretically..yes)...
> 
> Its alright to sit on your high horse and talk about self determination..its another to realise that India has legitimate rights to J & K..whoch you dispute but that its in its interest to keep J & K ..you cannot dispute that...



The 1995 Quebec referendum was the second referendum to ask voters in the Canadian province of Quebec whether Quebec should secede from Canada and become an independent state, through the question:
Quebec independence referendum, 1995 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




sensenreason said:


> Are you okay with Sindh or Balochi's having a separate country? In theory you might be ok...but then it will make Pakistan land locked...ie if you lose Karachi...is that in your interest?



The only problem with the above statement is that neither sind or balochistan a lot like Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram, Nagaland, Tripura,Punjab,Tamil Nadu have UN resoultions outstanding on the issue or are recognized as disputed terrority.





sensenreason said:


> Is it not democracy that 7-8 lac people of Valley should work in the interest of 100 cr Indians?...afterall majority view counts in democracies..its just a matter of who you poll !



Thats about as silly as russians saying that they want there population to be involved in the voting of freedom for the the former soviet republics....or the american s saying they want there populations vote counted when the iraqis vote.




sensenreason said:


> Its a different matter that public opinion is starting to turn in favour of a political settlement in Kashmir...which is good news for all.



broken record


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## EjazR

*UNHCR | Refworld | Freedom in the World 2010 - Kashmir [India]*

June 2010

Population: 12,219,000

Political Rights Score: 4 *
Civil Liberties Score: 4 *
Status: Partly Free

Ratings Change

Indian Kashmir's political rights rating improved from 5 to 4 due to reports that the December 2008 elections were generally fair and competitive, drawing a comparatively high voter turnout despite militant groups' calls for a boycott.

*Overview*

Talks between India and Pakistan on the resolution of Kashmir's status continued in 2009, and in November Kashmiri separatist leaders agreed to meet with the Indian government for the first time in four years. In the wake of successful elections in late 2008, the overall level of violence declined, continuing a seven-year trend; in October India announced plans to withdraw 15,000 troops from the Jammu region. Nevertheless, separatist violence continued during the year, and a number of noncombat killings by security forces were reported. Impunity for human rights abuses remained the norm.

When British India was partitioned into India and Pakistan in 1947, the Hindu maharajah of Jammu and Kashmir tried to maintain his principality's independence, but he eventually ceded it to India in return for autonomy and future self-determination. Within months, India and Pakistan went to war over the territory. As part of a UN-brokered ceasefire in 1949 that established the present-day boundaries, Pakistan gained control of roughly one-third of Jammu and Kashmir. India retained most of the Kashmir Valley, along with Jammu and Ladakh. Under Article 370 of India's constitution and a 1952 accord, the territory received substantial autonomy, but India annulled such guarantees in 1957 and formally annexed the portion of Jammu and Kashmir under its control. Since then, it has largely been governed like other Indian states, with an elected legislature and chief minister. Under the 1972 Simla accord, New Delhi and Islamabad agreed to respect the Line of Control (LOC) dividing the region and to resolve Kashmir's status through negotiation.

The pro-India National Conference (NC) party won state elections in 1987 that were marred by widespread fraud, violence, and arrests of members of a new, Muslim-based opposition coalition, leading to widespread unrest. An armed insurgency against Indian rule gathered momentum after 1989, waged by the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) and other proindependence groups consisting largely of Kashmiris, as well as Pakistani-backed Islamist groups seeking to bring Kashmir under Islamabad's control.

New Delhi placed Jammu and Kashmir under federal rule in 1990 and attempted to quell the uprising by force. The JKLF abandoned its armed struggle in 1994, and the insurgency was thereafter dominated by Pakistani-backed extremist groups, which included fighters from elsewhere in the Muslim world.

Although opposition parties joined together to form the All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) in 1993, they boycotted the 1996 state elections, and the NC was able to form a government. The APHC also declined to participate in the 2002 elections, but the NC nevertheless lost more than half of its assembly seats, allowing the Congress Party and the People's Democratic Party (PDP) to form a coalition government.

Despite several setbacks, relations between the Indian government and moderate Kashmiri separatist groups generally improved after the 2002 elections. In 2004, talks were held for the first time between Kashmiri separatists and the highest levels of the Indian government. Moderate APHC leaders reiterated their renunciation of violence in 2005 and called for Kashmiris to become more deeply involved in the negotiating process. However, the latter was hampered by an emerging split within the APHC between those who favored a continuation of the insurgency and those who favored a political solution.

The PDP-Congress alliance collapsed in June 2008, when the PDP withdrew its support amid a high-profile dispute over land set aside for a Hindu pilgrimage site. State elections were held from November 17 to December 28. Turnout was higher than expected, exceeding 60 percent on most polling dates, as voters largely ignored calls for a boycott from separatist groups. While early voting dates were generally peaceful, some violence marred later polling  particularly in early December  when antielection protesters clashed with security forces. The elections were considered mostly free and fair, however, with significantly reduced levels of voter intimidation, harassment, and violence compared with previous elections. The NC won a plurality of 28 seats, followed by the PDP with 21 seats and Congress with 17. The NC then allied itself with Congress to form a coalition government.

Umar Farooq, chairman of one APHC faction, offered in November 2009 to begin direct talks with the Indian government within the next few months. The talks would be the first of their kind in four years. The security situation also improved during 2009, with the number of fatalities decreasing for the seventh consecutive year. According to the South Asia Terrorism Portal (SATP), about 377 people were killed during the year, compared with 541 in 2008. In October New Delhi announced plans to withdraw 15,000 troops from the Jammu region, granting local police more responsibility over the area. Nevertheless, there were several incidents of violence, including bombings in public places and other attacks directed at security forces, politicians, and minority groups.

Relations between India and Pakistan improved somewhat in mid-2009 following a rift over a November 2008 terrorist attack in Mumbai that was linked to a Pakistani-based militant group. In July the two sides agreed to separate their Kashmir talks from discussions related to terrorist attacks, but India was forced to backtrack from that position due to vocal domestic criticism.

*Political Rights and Civil Liberties*

Jammu and Kashmir, like India's other states, is governed by an elected bicameral legislature and a chief minister entrusted with executive power. An appointed governor serves as titular head of state. Members of the 87-seat lower house, or state assembly, are directly elected, while the 46-seat upper house has a combination of members elected by the state assembly and nominated by the governor.

India has never held a referendum allowing Kashmiri self-determination as called for in a 1948 UN resolution. The state's residents can change the local administration through elections, which are supposed to be held at least once every five years. The polls are monitored by the Election Commission of India, but historically they have been marred by violence, coercion by security forces, and balloting irregularities. Militants have enforced boycotts called for by separatist political parties, threatened election officials and candidates, and killed political activists and civilians during balloting. More than 800 people were killed during the 2002 campaign period, including over 75 political activists and candidates.

However, the November and December 2008 legislative elections, which were considered generally free and fair, were largely peaceful despite some cases of violence. Turnout was significantly higher than in previous years, according to a Times of India report. A January 2009 ReliefWeb report noted that the election was the most peaceful in two decades.

Political violence has included high-profile assassinations of party and government officials, although the number of political killings has fallen somewhat in recent years. A prominent NC activist was killed by separatists in Srinigar in September 2009.

Corruption remains widespread despite apparent government efforts to combat it. The State Vigilance Organization has been active in recent years, charging several local officials with fraud and misappropriation of funds. Nevertheless, higher officials are seldom targeted, and convictions are rare. In January 2008, Education Minister Peerzada Mohammad Sayeed resigned after being charged with receiving a bribe, but he rejoined the cabinet in January 2009. Several whistleblowers have reported harassment after filing complaints. Indian-controlled Kashmir was not ranked separately on Transparency International's 2009 Corruption Perceptions Index.

Though it is generally not used, India's 1971 Newspapers (Incitement to Offences) Act, which is in effect only in Jammu and Kashmir, gives district magistrates the authority to censor publications in certain circumstances. Pressure to self-censor has been reported at smaller media outlets that rely on state government advertising for the majority of their revenue. Despite these restrictions, newspapers report on controversial issues such as alleged human rights abuses by security forces. The authorities generally allow foreign journalists to travel freely, meet regularly with separatist leaders, and file reports on a range of issues, including government abuses. As with the rest of India, print media are thriving in Kashmir, with 145 dailies available across the state.

Journalists remain subject to pressure from militants, and many practice some degree of self-censorship for this reason. Militant groups threaten and sometimes kidnap, torture, or kill journalists. Reporters are also occasionally harassed or detained by the authorities. Incidents of violence against the press declined in 2009, with no reported cases of assault or murder, although journalists reporting on the alleged rape and murder of two women by Indian police in Shopian faced harassment and death threats. In July, police threatened two Srinagar-based journalists for reporting on the suspected disappearance of a youth while in police custody.

Freedom of worship and academic freedom are generally respected by Indian and local authorities. Since 2003, the state government has permitted separatist groups to organize a procession marking the prophet Muhammad's birthday. However, Islamist militants at times attack Hindu and Sikh temples or villages. The offer and subsequent retraction of land for a Hindu pilgrimage site in June 2008 inspired large and sometimes violent protests throughout the summer. However, pilgrimages to the site began again in mid-2009 and continued peacefully for the rest of the year.

Freedoms of assembly and association are often restricted. Although local and national civil rights groups are permitted to operate, they sometimes encounter harassment by security forces. The separatist APHC is allowed to function, but its leaders are frequently subjected to short-term preventative detention, and its requests for permits for public gatherings are often denied. Politically motivated general strikes, protest marches, and antigovernment demonstrations take place on a regular basis, though some are forcibly broken up by the authorities. During the summer protests of 2008, there were several reports of police shooting indiscriminately into stone-throwing crowds. The February 2009 killing of two unarmed youths by police in Bumai led to mass protests in the area in March; four people were injured when a mob attacked a police station, and local authorities imposed a day-long curfew to prevent further violence. In a separate incident, two people died during protests in June following the alleged rape and murder of two women by the police in Shopian.

Courts were regularly in session in Jammu and Kashmir in 2009, according to the U.S. State Department's human rights report. Nevertheless, judges, witnesses, and the families of defendants remain subject to intimidation by militants. In addition, the government and security forces frequently disregard court orders, including those quashing detentions. Two broadly written laws  the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) and the Disturbed Areas Act  allow Indian forces to search homes and arrest suspects without a warrant, shoot suspects on sight, and destroy buildings believed to house militants or arms. In a widely criticized decision in May 2007, India's Supreme Court effectively reversed previous rulings requiring the armed forces to involve civilian police in their operations and thus removed an important safeguard for detainees. Following the two killings in Bumai in February 2009, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah pledged to have the AFSPA repealed during his new government's six-year term; it was still in effect at year's end.

In a continuing cycle of violence, hundreds of militants, security personnel, and civilians are killed each year, although the number continued to decline in 2009. The SATP reported that 55 civilians, 78 security personnel, and 244 militants were killed during the year. The total of 377 was a significant decrease from the previous year's death toll of 541.

Indian security personnel based in Kashmir, numbering about 500,000, carry out arbitrary arrests and detentions, torture, "disappearances," and custodial killings of suspected militants and alleged civilian sympathizers. As part of the counterinsurgency effort, the government has organized former militants into progovernment militias. Members of these groups act with impunity and have reportedly carried out a range of human rights abuses against pro-Pakistani militants and civilians. Official figures released in August 2009 estimated that 3,429 people had disappeared between 1990 and July 2009. Human rights groups have suggested a number closer to 8,000. Security personnel are often rewarded  with either cash or a promotion  for producing a dead militant, and holding militants in custody is considered a security risk. This has led to the practice of fake "encounter" killings, in which militants as well as civilians are killed in custody and then passed off as combatants killed in battle.

While the state human rights commission examines several dozen complaints a year, it is hampered by inadequate resources and infrastructure. In addition, it cannot directly investigate abuses by the army or other federal security forces, nor can it take action against those found to have committed violations. Impunity for rights abuses by Indian armed forces has been the norm, in part because under the AFSPA, New Delhi is required to approve any prosecutions. However, the discovery of apparent victims of fake encounter killings in 2007 prompted an unusually thorough investigation, and at least 18 policemen were charged, including a number of senior officers and a former superintendent. While the government initially denied any wrongdoing in the two killings in Bumai in 2009, a subsequent investigation acknowledged that three police officers were guilty of "lapses," and disciplinary action was ordered against them. The Central Bureau of Investigation's probe of the alleged rape and murder of two woman in Shopian was ongoing.

Armed with increasingly sophisticated and powerful weapons, and relying to a greater degree on suicide squads, militant groups based in Pakistan continue to kill pro-India politicians, public employees, suspected informers, members of rival factions, soldiers, and civilians. The roughly 800 active militants also engage in kidnapping, rape, extortion, and other forms of intimidation. Violence targeting Pandits, or Kashmiri Hindus, is part of a pattern dating to 1990 that has forced several hundred thousand Hindus to flee the region; many continue to reside in refugee camps near Jammu. Other religious and ethnic minorities such as Sikhs and Gujjars have also been targeted.

Kashmiris are generally free to move around the state. A bus service across the LOC was launched in 2005, and trade across the line reopened in early 2008 for the first time in 60 years.

As in other parts of India, women face some societal discrimination as well as domestic violence and other forms of abuse. Female civilians continue to be subjected to harassment, intimidation, and violent attacks, including rape and murder, at the hands of both the security forces and militant groups.

*Countries are ranked on a scale of 1-7, with 1 representing the highest level of freedom and 7 representing the lowest level of freedom.

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## WAQAS119

karan.1970 said:


> Compare the numbers of reported Rapes in the Kashmir valley vs another similar area like ... say... NWFP which is not disputed, but has a similar situation in terms of military deployment etc...



This is really a illogical to compare a disputed territory with NWFP which is not disputed.... Current unrest in Kashmir can very well be taken as evidence of barbarism of Indian Army in Kashmir, and rapes by IA is usuall thing.

If you claim to Kashmir to be a part of India, then a genuine question arises in mind! Why the hell an army is raping its own civilians. Never saw army of any country raping its own civilian but obviously Kashmir is not part of India.

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## EjazR

*UNHCR | Refworld | Freedom in the World 2010 - Kashmir [Pakistan]*
24 June 2010

Population: 5,113,000

Political Rights Score: 6 *
Civil Liberties Score: 5 *
Status: Not Free

Trend Arrow &#8593;

Pakistani Kashmir received an upward trend arrow due to largely peaceful elections for the reformed Gilgit-Baltistan Legislative Assembly in November.

*Overview*

Conditions in Pakistani-administered Kashmir improved in 2009 due to reforms affecting the Northern Areas, which were renamed Gilgit-Baltistan, and elections for that region's new legislative assembly in November. Nevertheless, nationalist groups' demands for representation in Pakistan's Parliament remained unfulfilled. Substantive progress on the dispute over Kashmir between India and Pakistan largely stalled in 2009, following November 2008 terrorist attacks in Mumbai, India, by a Pakistan-based militant group, although bilateral talks between the two countries did resume in June.

When British India was partitioned into India and Pakistan in 1947, the Hindu maharajah of Jammu and Kashmir tried to maintain his principality's independence, but he eventually ceded it to India in return for autonomy and future self-determination. Within months, India and Pakistan went to war over the territory. As part of a UN-brokered ceasefire in 1949 that established the present-day boundaries, Pakistan gained control of roughly one-third of Jammu and Kashmir, but unlike India, it never formally annexed its portion. The Karachi Agreement of April 1949 divided Pakistani-administered Kashmir into two distinct entities &#8211; Azad (Free) Kashmir and the Northern Areas. Pakistan retained direct administrative control over the Northern Areas, while Azad Kashmir was given a degree of nominal self-government.

A legislative assembly for Azad Kashmir was set up in 1970, and the 1974 interim constitution established a parliamentary system headed by a president and a prime minister. However, the political process was disrupted for long periods by military rule in Pakistan as a whole. Even when elections were held, Islamabad's influence over the voting and governance in general remained strong, and few observers considered the region's elections to be free and fair. In the 1996 polls, the Azad Kashmir People's Party (AKPP) won a majority in the legislative assembly after the rival Muslim Conference (MC) party mounted a boycott due to fraud allegations. The MC won the 2001 elections, but within weeks Pakistani leader General Pervez Musharraf installed his own choice of president. In 2006, the MC again won a majority of the 41 directly elected seats, and MC candidate Raja Zulqarnain Khan emerged as president. MC leader Sardar Attique Ahmed Khan became prime minister after receiving Musharraf's nomination.

Meanwhile, the lack of political representation in the Northern Areas fueled demands for both formal inclusion within Pakistan and self-determination. In 1999, the Pakistani Supreme Court directed the administration to act within six months to give the Northern Areas an elected government with an independent judiciary, and to extend fundamental rights to the region's residents. The Pakistani government then announced a package that provided for an appellate court as well as an expanded and renamed Northern Areas Legislative Council (NALC). Elections to the NALC were held in October 2004, but the body had few real fiscal or legislative powers. The court of appeals was established in 2005.

Nationalist and proindependence groups in the Northern Areas continued to agitate for increased political representation, and in 2008 the Pakistani government began implementing structural reforms that yielded modest improvements while leaving most authority in federal hands. Islamabad approved the Gilgit-Baltistan Empowerment and Self Governance Order (GBESGO) in August 2009, officially renaming the Northern Areas as Gilgit-Baltistan and introducing a number of administrative, political, and judicial changes. The new order, which replaced the Northern Areas Legal Framework Order (LFO) of 1994, provided for a more powerful legislative body, the Gilgit-Baltistan Legislative Assembly (GBLA), with the authority to choose a chief minister and pass legislation on 61 subjects. While the government argued that the GBESGO established full internal autonomy, nationalist groups noted that a governor appointed by the Pakistani president would still be the ultimate authority and could not be overruled by the new assembly.

In November elections for the GBLA, the Pakistan People's Party (PPP), which governed at the federal level, won 12 of 24 directly elected seats; 10 of the remainder were divided among four other parties and four independents, and voting for two seats was postponed. Syed Mehdi Shah, head of the Gilgit-Baltistan chapter of the PPP, was nominated by his party to become the region's chief minister.

Despite periodic talks and high-level meetings between India and Pakistan, little progress has been made toward a comprehensive resolution of the Kashmir dispute. The process stalled after Pakistani militants were deemed responsible for a November 2008 terrorist attack on the Indian city of Mumbai, and India called on Pakistan to arrest the attack's organizers. A number of suspects were arrested in February 2009, and in November the Pakistani government charged seven, including alleged mastermind Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi, a leader of the militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT). The main objectives of the group, founded in the early 1990s, was to end Indian rule in Kashmir and re-establish Muslim rule throughout the Indian subcontinent.

*Political Rights and Civil Liberties*

The political rights of the residents of Pakistani-administered Kashmir remain severely limited, despite a number of improvements tied to the end of military rule and the election of a civilian government at the federal level in 2008, and elections for the new GBLA in November 2009. Neither Gilgit-Baltistan nor Azad Kashmir has representation in Pakistan's Parliament.

Gilgit-Baltistan, previously known as the Northern Areas, continues to be directly administered by the Pakistani government, meaning its status still falls short of compliance with a 1999 Supreme Court ruling on the issue. The region is not included in the Pakistani constitution and has no constitution of its own, meaning there is no fundamental guarantee of civil rights, democratic representation, or separation of powers.

Under the August 2009 GBESGO, the political structure now includes the 33-member GBLA and a chief minister, as well as a 12-member Gilgit Baltistan Council (GBC) headed by the Pakistani Prime Minister and vice-chaired by a federally appointed governor. The GBC consists of six members of the GBLA and six Pakistani parliamentarians appointed by the governor, while the GBLA is composed of 24 directly elected members, six seats reserved for women, and three seats reserved for technocrats; the reserved seats are filled through a vote by the elected members. Ultimate authority rests in the hands of the governor, who has significant powers over judicial appointments and whose decisions cannot be overruled by the GBLA. In addition, many financial powers remain with the GBC rather than the elected assembly.

A local nationalist coalition, the Gilgit-Baltistan Democratic Alliance (GBDA), fielded 10 candidates in the November GBLA elections, while the Balawaristan National Front (BNF) ran two, but none of these proindependence candidates won seats. GBDA leaders accused federal authorities of preventing nationalist parties from holding rallies and public gatherings, and of favoring Pakistani parties with funding and other forms of support. The leadership of the GBDA and three of its candidates were arrested prior to a nationalist rally shortly before the elections, and several proindependence leaders boycotted the vote. Although two people were killed and some 40 injured in violence between supporters of rival candidates, the elections were largely peaceful, and female voters were able to participate in most areas. Observer missions from the independent Human Rights Commission of Pakistan and the Free and Fair Election Network characterized the elections as competitive, despite procedural flaws including an inaccurate voter list, allegations of rigging and interference, and misuse of state resources to benefit the ruling PPP.

Azad Kashmir has an interim constitution, an elected unicameral assembly, a prime minister, and a president who is elected by the assembly. Both the president and the legislature serve five-year terms. Of the 49 assembly seats, 41 are filled through direct elections and eight are reserved seats (five for women and one each for representatives of overseas Kashmiris, technocrats, and religious leaders). However, Pakistan exercises considerable control over the structures of government and electoral politics. Islamabad's approval is required to pass legislation, and the federal minister for Kashmir affairs handles daily administration and controls the budget. The Kashmir Council &#8211; composed of federal officials and Kashmiri assembly members, and chaired by the prime minister of Pakistan &#8211; also holds some executive, legislative, and judicial powers. The Pakistani military retains a guiding role on issues of politics and governance.

Those who do not support Azad Kashmir's accession to Pakistan are barred from the political process, government employment, and educational institutions. They are also subject to surveillance, harassment, and sometimes imprisonment by Pakistani security services. The 2006 legislative elections in Azad Kashmir were marred by rigging allegations, but unlike the 2001 voting they featured few instances of physical violence and harassment, possibly because of the greater international presence in the wake of a devastating 2005 earthquake in the region.

Azad Kashmir receives a large amount of financial aid from the Pakistani government, especially following the earthquake, but successive administrations have been tainted by corruption and incompetence. Aid agencies have also been accused of misusing funds meant for rebuilding schools and hospitals. A lack of official accountability has been identified as a key factor in the poor socioeconomic condition of both Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan. However, the region has recently benefited from improvements in accountability at the federal level and the transfer of some budgetary powers to the GBLA in 2009. Pakistani-controlled Kashmir was not rated separately in Transparency International's 2009 Corruption Perceptions Index.

The Pakistani government uses the constitution and other laws to curb freedom of speech on a variety of subjects, including the status of Kashmir and sectarian violence. Media owners cannot publish in Azad Kashmir without permission from the Kashmir Council and the Ministry of Kashmir Affairs, and publications with a proindependence slant are unlikely to receive such permission, according to the U.S. State Department. Several dailies and weeklies operate in Gilgit-Baltistan, mostly under the auspices of the K-2 publishing house, and provide some scrutiny of official affairs. In recent years, authorities have banned several local newspapers and detained or otherwise harassed Kashmiri journalists. After three local journalists were charged with contempt of court against the chief justice of the Azad Kashmir Supreme Court in July 2009, police prevented the media from covering the case by barring all observers from the court premises. In addition to official pressure, local journalists have sometimes faced harassment and attacks from nonstate actors. Internet access is not usually restricted but remains confined to urban centers. Deliberately limited telephone and mobile-telephone access has been expanded since the 2005 earthquake. The presence of foreign media and aid organizations has also helped to partially open the tightly controlled information environment.

Pakistan is an Islamic republic, and there are numerous restrictions on religious freedom. Religious minorities also face unofficial economic and societal discrimination, and are occasionally subject to violent attack. Sectarian strife continues between Shiite Muslims, who form a majority in Gilgit-Baltistan, and the increasing number of Sunni Muslims, who are tacitly encouraged by the federal authorities to migrate to the Kashmir region from elsewhere in Pakistan. In 2009, groups such as the New Delhi-based Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses noted an upsurge of sectarian violence, with the number of killings exceeding the combined total from the previous two years. In April, Shiite leader Asad Zaidi, deputy speaker of the NALC, was assassinated. In September, a bomb blast in Gilgit precipitated sectarian violence in which about 12 people died.

Freedoms of association and assembly are limited. The constitution of Azad Kashmir forbids individuals and political parties from taking part in activities that are prejudicial to the region's accession to Pakistan. Police in recent years have regularly suppressed antigovernment demonstrations, sometimes violently, but there were no reports of deaths or lengthy detentions in 2009. During a February political standoff between the ruling PPP and its main rival in Pakistan, hundreds of people demonstrated in Muzzafarabad, the capital of Azad Kashmir.

Nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) are generally able to operate freely. Programs run by the Aga Khan Foundation, an international development organization that focuses on members of the Ismaili sect of Shia Islam, have faced harassment and violence by Sunni extremist groups, but no such attacks were reported in 2009. The situation for labor rights in Pakistani-controlled Kashmir is similar to that in Pakistan.

Pakistani laws apply in Gilgit-Baltistan at the executive's approval, according to the U.S. State Department's human rights report. The judiciary is not empowered to hear cases concerning fundamental rights or cases against the executive. All judicial appointments in Gilgit-Baltistan are based on three-year contracts subject to discretionary renewal by the bureaucracy, leaving the judiciary largely subservient to the executive. Meanwhile, cases concerning Gilgit-Baltistan are considered outside the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court of Pakistan. Judicial reforms in the GBESGO provide for the appointment of the chief judge and of other judges by the chairman of the new Gilgit Baltistan Council "on the advice of the governor." Other judges would also be appointed by the chairman.

Azad Kashmir has its own system of local magistrates and high courts, whose heads are appointed by the president of Azad Kashmir. Appeals are adjudicated by the Supreme Court of Pakistan. There are also Islamic judges who handle criminal cases concerning Islamic law. In April 2007, local lawyers protested the appointment of Justice Mohammad Reaz Akhtar Chaudhry as chief justice to the Azad Kashmir Supreme Court over the court's most senior judge, arguing that it violated constitutional conventions and rules of seniority. The newspaper Dawn later reported that the court rejected the lawyers' petition on the issue.

Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate reportedly operates throughout Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan and engages in extensive surveillance &#8211; particularly of proindependence groups and the press &#8211; as well as arbitrary arrests and detentions. In some instances, those detained by the security forces are tortured, and several cases of death in custody have been reported. Impunity for mistreatment of civilians by the military and intelligence services remains the norm. The territory also continues to be governed by the colonial-era Frontier Crimes Regulations, under which residents are required to report to local police stations once a month.

A number of Islamist militant groups, including those that receive patronage from the Pakistani military, operate from bases in Pakistani-administered Kashmir. Militant groups that have traditionally focused on attacks in Indian-administered Kashmir are reportedly expanding their influence and activities in Pakistani Kashmir, including the establishment of new madrassas (religious schools) in the area. They have also increased cooperation with other militants based in Pakistan's tribal areas, such as the Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP). In Pakistani Kashmir's first suicide attack, a bomber from the tribal areas targeted an army barracks in June 2009, killing two soldiers and injuring three; the TTP claimed responsibility. In August, the Pakistani government banned 25 militant groups operating within the country, including those focused on Kashmir. Although the government claimed to have raided and sealed off the Muzaffarabad headquarters of the LeT, also known as the Jamaat-ud-Dawa, other reports indicated that the group continued to operate training camps in the region. Tension between Islamist pro-Pakistan groups and proindependence Kashmiri groups &#8211; as well as some local residents &#8211; has reportedly increased in recent years.

Several hundred families displaced from the Line of Control (LOC) area by shelling between Indian and Pakistani forces prior to a 2003 ceasefire remain unable to return to their homes and have largely been excluded from earthquake-related assistance schemes. An estimated 90 percent of the housing destroyed by the 2005 quake, which killed at least 88,000 people and left several million homeless, had been rebuilt by mid-2009, but reconstruction of education and health facilities continued to proceed at a much slower pace, according to local authorities. The Azad Kashmir government also manages relief camps for refugees from Indian-administered Kashmir, the bulk of whom arrived after the situation on the Indian side worsened in 1989. Many more of the refugees (roughly 1.5 million) live elsewhere in Azad Kashmir and throughout Pakistan. A bus service across the LOC was launched in 2005, linking the capitals of Indian and Pakistani Kashmir and allowing some Kashmiri civilians to reunite with family members.

The status of women in Pakistani-administered Kashmir is similar to that of women in Pakistan. While honor killings and rape reportedly occur less frequently than in Pakistan, domestic violence, forced marriage, and other forms of abuse continue to be issues of concern. Women are not granted equal rights under the law, and their educational opportunities and choice of marriage partners remain circumscribed. As in some parts of Pakistan, suspected Islamists occasionally mount attacks against NGOs that employ women and on their female employees.

_*Countries are ranked on a scale of 1-7, with 1 representing the highest level of freedom and 7 representing the lowest level of freedom._

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## GreenStar

> Simply because any political party that will give away a part of the country even an option to separate, will be thrown out forever by the Indian population



So basically its India's greed to maintain Kashmir.....as you yourself have said that the political party that gives Kashmir independence or allow a plebiscite will be thrown out by the Indian population. That notion just signifies that your willing to make Indians happy....but not the Kashmiri people who reside in that land. Karan can you please tell me....why is the Indian arm forces are always actively raping and killing Kashmiri's...there are so many cases.....does it give your goverement a right to do so.


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## karan.1970

WAQAS119 said:


> This is really a illogical to compare a disputed territory with NWFP which is not disputed.... Current unrest in Kashmir can very well be taken as evidence of barbarism of Indian Army in Kashmir, and rapes by IA is usuall thing.
> 
> If you claim to Kashmir to be a part of India, then a genuine question arises in mind! Why the hell an army is raping its own civilians. Never saw army of any country raping its own civilian but obviously Kashmir is not part of India.



Has an army man never been convicted of rape in Pakistan. Will you look it up ??


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## dabong1

Peshwa said:


> Wonder what happened to the concept of neutral links that Pakistanis harp on 24-7?



A. G. Noorani
a secular Indian Muslim, is a lawyer and political analyst. He is is an Advocate in the Supreme Court of India and a leading Constitutional expert. His columns appear in The Hindustan Times, Frontline, Economic and Political Weekly and Dainik Bhaskar. 




Peshwa said:


> Heres an article from a neutral source....though Im sure CNN too Im assuming is anti-Pak, Zionist and RAW controlled....nevertheless....
> 
> CNN.com - Aksai Chin: China's disputed slice of Kashmir - May 24, 2002



Which has been proved to be false by an indian lawyer


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## GreenStar

> Compare the numbers of reported Rapes in the Kashmir valley vs another similar area like ... say... NWFP which is not disputed, but has a similar situation in terms of military deployment etc...



But Karan the Pakistani Army to my knowledge is not actively raping and killing innocent civilians in NWFP......however the Indian Army is doing this disgusting action in Kashmir. And if Pakistan was doing it then they should be held accountable....however this topic is not about Pakistan....its about India killing innocent Kashmiri's.....not Pakistan killing them.


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## GreenStar

> Has an army man never been convicted of rape in Pakistan. Will you look it up ??



Give me a case please....I would like to know more about this.....furthermore to my knowledge it is rare that any Pakistani soilder has committed rape on active duty. I have not heard one case where Pakistan soilders have raped the civilians during its operation against the militants. You can't defend your Army in this case Karan......shouldn't those soilders be punished.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> So basically its India's greed to maintain Kashmir.....as you yourself have said that the political party that gives Kashmir independence or allow a plebiscite will be thrown out by the Indian population. That notion just signifies that your willing to make Indians happy....but not the Kashmiri people who reside in that land. Karan can you please tell me....why is the Indian arm forces are always actively raping and killing Kashmiri's...there are so many cases.....does it give your goverement a right to do so.



1. Any political party that gives away an integral part of our country, needs to be thrown out and tried for treason. Where have I seen this before. Oh Yes.. Didnt that happen to Bhutto??

2. There is no difference between Indians and Kashmiri people. We will make all Indians including Kashmiris happy.. Just hiccupps on the way caused by ineffective politics and some garam masala from the neighbourhood

3. I believe, controlling miscreants who are rioting is prefered to letting them have free hand to cause violence and deaths of others who are not towing there line. A good example is that with the action of sec forces, we have 45 deaths in Kashmir over a period of a month. Some regrettable, some not. On the other hand, due to inaction of police in Karachi, the rioters and criminals actually massacarred 85 people in 3 days flat. Both situations are bad, but given a choice, I will still go with the first.

Also look at the stats below.. I will listen to your lecture once you get your house in order, because unless you do, your advice has no credibility that it will make things better for India (including Kashmir).

Interesting trend developing over the years...

PS: I am saying your house, since I believe like most immigrants, you still consider yourself Pakistani as well. Please dont take it as a personal attack

*J&K*







*Pakistan*


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## GreenStar

> 1. Any political party that gives away an integral part of our country, needs to be thrown out and tried for treason. Where have I seen this before. Oh Yes.. Didnt that happen to Bhutto?



Then its good Pakistan loss Bangladesh, because clearly the people did not want Pakistani rule to govern them. Same with Kashmir the people don't want Indian rule...so give them independence...what is holding you back.......from my opinion its greed.....and your willing to keep land at the expense of knowing that thousands of people will die.......that to me is a shambolic and disgusting goverment who does such a thing.....whether its Pakistan or India.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Tonight we ride on clouds of fire
We fear no one in this world
i m standing,standing standing
And i m standing,standing,still standing in this fire!!


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## Hulk

Mr GreenStar you mentioned rape in Kashmir couple times in your post. Now backup your claim with data of 2009 and 2010 as it recent. As per my knowledge 0 in 2010 and 1 disputed case in 2009. Only a dumb person or one with prejudice will call it mass rape. The number is not even worth mentioning.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen




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## GreenStar

> 2. There is no difference between Indians and Kashmiri people. We will make all Indians including Kashmiris happy.. Just hiccupps on the way caused by ineffective politics and some garam masala from the neighbourhood



Well Kashmir's don't feel that way......other wise they would not have come out on to the street's and protest. Women and Men of all ages are involved in this protest.....just the other day Ejaz a Pakistan member showed a article where an Indian Security officer shoved a baton down a 8 year old throat.....was that right Karan......do you support such aggressive behavior of your secrurity forces.


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## LEO99

i live in j&k & situation is bad ,a word before worse .army's way of treating the common people in J&k creating enemy among them.They don't care for civilian life in case of any encounter .

i wish we would see peace in Kashmir ,but till presence of IA & cross border jihadi operation continues this seems a distant dream


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

*ead body of 8- years old boy Sameer Ahmad Rah son of Fayaz Ahmad Rah of Sheikh Dawood Colony, Batmaloo who was beaten to death by police and paramilitary forces*

---------- Post added at 09:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:29 PM ----------







Mohd yaqoob...shaheed of zadoora pulwama he recited Qalma-e-Shahada before he breathed last.!May he rest in Heaven!!


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## Ganga

The Kashmiri people are frustated.I think the GOI must think of improving the financial condition of the state.Unemployed youths get bored sitting at homes and get frustated.This frustation comes out in the form of stone pelting etc...Once they have opportunities they will not resort to acts of violence.

Actually Kahmiris are lucky to be a part of India.Had it been China the uprising would had been ruthlessly crushed.Also many members are saying that th Indian army kills civilians.This is wrong .The Indian army hardly comes out of the barracks in Kashmir.The IA was very active when insurgency was at peak in the 90s .Its the CRPF and the J&k Police(whose members are kashmiris)which handles crisis .


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen




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## GreenStar

Thanks for the photo's H20.....looks like a number of people our involved in this protest.......and the first picture is very powerful......kinda reminds me of that photo in tienammen square of that Chinese tank trying to run over that man.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

---------- Post added at 09:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 PM ----------


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## Tshering22

BATMAN said:


> It also confirms indian media is not free and is controlled by hindus.
> 
> We know now what indian media is made up of and how much can it be trusted when they write against Kashmiris.


Hindus also comprised of valley population that were driven out so that religious imbalance happens in your favour. So don't put blame on them all the time. Prior to 1989, there was no such thing. 

Kashmir is still the most communal state in the country where Buddhists, Hindus and Sikhs are apprehensive to return. If you want to talk religion, let's talk it that way.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen




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## Tshering22

Asim Aquil said:


> Indians deflecting topics to Balochistan, the moon and Mars are all a sign of wimps, and I have nothing to talk to them. Be a man, don't try to derail a thread .
> 
> The problem I have is with the NY Times and Washington Posts of the world. For the past 10 years I've been hearing one big statement after the other against Pakistan. Sometimes we're ranked worse than Afghanistan, sometimes the world's most dangerous place, we're in cahoots with the Taliban, Osama is in Quetta, is in Karachi, is in FATA... I mean god dammit, we're the centre of the universe if the story was told by these news agencies.
> 
> What about India? All the BS about Kashmiris being a part of India has come shattering down, why is the western media thunder totally mum? The BBC, the CNN, they are all giving only passing remarks like "Oh btw, in other news, there's something happening in Kashmir too".
> 
> When that kid, Prince, fell in a manhole in India, that got more news coverage than the months long protests against the Indian state. What does that tell you about the credibility of these organizations?


There are two kinds of people in Kashmir today: one/) your stooges called the separatist brigade. The other) those who voted.

Don't be so desperate to take what's ours.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

---------- Post added at 09:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 PM ----------


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

---------- Post added at 09:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 PM ----------

The leader of the freedom fighters fighting for the liberation of Kashmir from the tyranny of India


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## third eye

BATMAN said:


> It also confirms indian media is not free and is controlled by hindus.
> 
> We know now what indian media is made up of and how much can it be trusted when they write against Kashmiris.



The Indian media is controlled by Indians !

People just cannot outgrow the Hindu - Muslim thing .


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## Ganga

GreenStar said:


> Then its good Pakistan loss Bangladesh, because clearly the people did not want Pakistani rule to govern them. Same with Kashmir the people don't want Indian rule...so give them independence...what is holding you back.......from *my opinion its greed*.....and your willing to keep land at the expense of knowing that thousands of people will die.......that to me is a shambolic and disgusting goverment who does such a thing.....whether its Pakistan or India.



Greed??What does Kashmir have?Oil,gold,Diamonds?You think we would spend billions of dollars building railways ,airport,universities in Kashmir if we are not serious .We hold Kashmir because we consider it an integral part of India.We hold Kashmir because th ruler of Kashmir gave it to us.We hold Kashmir because one of the holiest hindu shrine is present there.We hold Kashmir because around 200,000 Kashmiri Pandits (people who have lived in Kashmir for centuries)have to brought back to Kashmir.

*We hold Kashmir because it was destined to be with India*


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## prototype

*why western media is not attacking India?*


Because in their colleges of journalism their is no subject called *controversy theories*

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen




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## Hulk

These people are bigots, they will never talk about what Kasmiri's did to their fellow Hindus. That is called barbarity, these Kashmiri's have blood of hindus in their hand.


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## GreenStar

Rape and murder two womenes in shopain kashmir by indian army

HR Kashmir: Rape of Kashmiri women and the South Asia

The second link said that bewteen 1990 to 1996 the Indian Army had gang raped 882 women. Yes that was a long time ago....but still the great Democratic Indian army did commit this atrocity and has not been punished for its act.

The first link is the case of Aasiyan and Neelofar Jan because raped and killed by security forces. The fact that these rapes have occured signifys that your Army is not fit to be in Kashmir, and that you have no right to govern them. 

Amnesty International | Working to Protect Human Rights

How do you not know that women from these villages were not raped and killied and buried in unmarked graves.......looks like the Indian establishment was trying to hide things.....how dispicable reminfds me of the Nazi's.

Indian Army To Fire Officer In Kashmir Rape Case

Kashmir rape and murder case takes a political turn!

INDIA: 63 Women Raped in Kashmir By Soldiers: Police - News Library - News & Events - PeaceWomen

HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS IN KASHMIR: Troops raped 51 Kashmiri women in 6 yrs: J&K Police

Kashmir: Shopian double murder and rape High Court directs arrest and blood-test of four top cops but protests still refuse to die down

But I have read no rape cases in 2010, which is good but the fact that 63 women have been raped since 2002 to 2008 by Indian security forces is alarming.


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## sensenreason

GreenStar said:


> So basically its India's greed to maintain Kashmir.....as you yourself have said that the political party that gives Kashmir independence or allow a plebiscite will be thrown out by the Indian population. That notion just signifies that your willing to make Indians happy....but not the Kashmiri people who reside in that land. Karan can you please tell me....why is the Indian arm forces are always actively raping and killing Kashmiri's...there are so many cases.....does it give your goverement a right to do so.



Im not condoning rapes or murders...I condemning it...Im not sure I understand why Kashmiri's should be able to defy rest of India's will...In many states of India the ruling party is BJP...while the centre is controlled by Congress and its policies are not liked by its supporters..forget that...most govt's are elected with maybe 10&#37; of overall voters voting for that party....thats the reality...

In Pakistan, even that formality has typically not happned due to the military...the point is that Im not sure 'what' democratic process they dont have that others in India have...infact J & K has a special status and enjoy more rights at state level than others...However, they continue to protest....

The army was sent their after the protests (in 90's)...if they are complaining about rigging...then they arent different from Bihar...if State govt is corrupt...well..so are the rest of state govts, central govts....Well..Canada might have provisions to separate..India doesnt....

I cannot fathom..what is their problem in the first place....Religion..well..there are more Muslims in other states....than in J & K...

The army hasnt treated any insurgency with any restraint...they are not trained to..and rightly so...

But when it comes to J & K..they are accused to have an agenda against Kashmiri's...Basically, they seem to display 'victim' mentality which Pakistan is suffering from and the main symptom is conspiracy theories...ofcourse you guys will not agree...but is sadly true...

Eventually...in the interest of world peace and livelihood of 100 cr Indians and 16 cr pakistani's the 8 lac kashmiri's should migrate and 80% of the people will be happy....thats much more than any other democratic system I know can deliver.


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## WAQAS119

karan.1970 said:


> 1. Any political party that gives away an integral part of our country, needs to be thrown out and tried for treason. Where have I seen this before. Oh Yes.. Didnt that happen to Bhutto??



Ah looser mentality is quite visible! when you cannot argue and justify killings of Kashmiris( i am refring to killing that are going on their from decades, killing in recent few days was only small clip of whole movie)
lets just divert the topic to other issues.



> 2. There is no difference between Indians and Kashmiri people. We will make all Indians including Kashmiris happy.. Just hiccupps on the way caused by ineffective politics and some garam masala from the neighbourhood



Their is a lot of difference between true Kashmiri ( here i am not refring to those people who are settling their as part of the effort by Indian establishment to tilt the whole balance in favor of hindus) and a Bharti (Indian). Kashmirs are killed but indians are not, Kashmiri are raped but indians are not Kashimirs are not allowed to have free media but Indians are. 

And as far as you think that this garam masala is a Pakistani creation then think again. Let me give few neutral sources:::

*Police fire on protest in Kashmir, two dead*


*India soldiers kill Kashmiri child in protests*

Nine killed in anti-India protests in Kashmir




> 3. I believe, controlling miscreants who are rioting is prefered to letting them have free hand to cause violence and deaths of others who are not towing there line.



*India soldiers kill Kashmiri child in protests*

yea! children killed in Kashmir were terrorists!!!!




> A good example is that with the action of sec forces, we have 45 deaths in Kashmir over a period of a month. Some regrettable, some not. On the other hand, due to inaction of police in Karachi, the rioters and criminals actually massacarred 85 people in 3 days flat. Both situations are bad, but given a choice, I will still go with the first.



Ah again a looser's mentality! Karachi is not far different from Mumbai in gang wars..... wana see






*http://ibnlive.in.com/news/mumbai-gang-war-shoots-back/24287-3.html*

*Gang war breaks out Mumbai's high security Arthur Road prison*

Even New York is not that behind in gang wars.

Fact of the matter is Army killing innocent Kashmiris children cannot be compared with gang wars. 




> Also look at the stats below.. I will listen to your lecture once you get your house in order, because unless you do, your advice has no credibility that it will make things better for India (including Kashmir).
> 
> Interesting trend developing over the years...



Stat???? give us a link from where you got that. Lets see whether these are stats or usual Hindustan Times bu*****.


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## GreenStar

> These people are bigots



Who is a bigot, one of the rules of this forum is not personally others just because they have different views.


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## GreenStar

> Im not sure I understand why Kashmiri's should be able to defy rest of India's will



Look at that picture in which H20 provided.....that young lad getting the stick from the Indian security forces. You and I will not understand as we are not in the vicinty of that area.......however the people are feeling pain.....they don't want India .....you are holding them hostage....thats why they are protesting.....they are tired of the rapes and killings.


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## WAQAS119

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> *ead body of 8- years old boy Sameer Ahmad Rah son of Fayaz Ahmad Rah of Sheikh Dawood Colony, Batmaloo who was beaten to death by police and paramilitary forces*!



For indians he was a terrorists!!! World terrorist is really easy for them to utter!!!!!!!!!! Shame


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## Hulk

Ahh u side stepped my question about behaviour towards Hindus. That is why people are called bigots when they look everything from eyes of religion, Muslims dead I am worried and Hindus dead I am happy.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

karan.1970 said:


> The age old excuse of justifying everything by the smoke screen of the cause.. On the street when a LEO sees a rock thrown at him, cause does not matter. Do you allow a robber to rob a bank becuase he lost a job and doesnt have a source of income?? Ends do not justify the means. You break the law, you face consequences.




You are occupying them; therefore your argument is totally flawed. They dont want you there. Thats why they are revolting.





> Exactly.. You go after Kashmir, and thats what you will hit.. A brick wall..




Who is hitting the brick wall?






> C'mon yaara.. Dont underestimate Pakistan so much. The difference in the mights of India and Pakistan is no way comparitive to the difference in the capability of Israel and Palestine. Pakistan is way better than that...




I was referring to Kashmiris 





> Do you really want to go in the realm of how much percentage of our respective countries' have the writ of state established.




Sure we could actually; because last I checked, according to even hindustany media  naxal are in 1/3 of india and that is just one of a handful of rebel movements. But thats a whole other subject.





> Doesnt change a thing...No one is forcefully held back. Those who dont want to stay with India, can get up and leave..




Its a land dispute.people live in those lands; you are sadly naive to think they will just pack up and go. 




> Its your right to rubbish anything that you feel is not right and is not in national interest of Pakistan. Just like its mine about India.. And hey on the lines of Pakistan's favourite adage of freedom fighters and terrorists, *one man's fact is other's fiction*...




Kashmir is an integral part of hindustan 

Your favourite adage. Unfortunately for you, its farthest from the truth. In Azad Kashmir, I dont see people throwing rocks and objects at our forces. Pooch lo kyu Because we give them almost full autonomy and dont treat them like subjects.

You on the other hand, your strategy is failing miserably. Kill 2 people, you created 35 more enemies who will denounce your presence. In that sense, you are only doing a service to Pakistan; and most importantly, you are just sowing the seeds for further anti hindustan sentiment






> I feel sad for them. 2 more pawns sacrificed in the land grab game of Pakistan...



Nope. No matter how you try to mis-construe it, those are 2 more innocent lives taken away by the occupying forces.

Imposing curfew, target killing and intimidation wont be effective tool


Worlds largest democracy hard at work, ey?





p.s. posted this somewhat recently



Police intimidating Facebook users in Kashmir: rights group - Yahoo! News


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## GreenStar

> Im not condoning rapes or murders...I condemning it



If that is the case what have you done so far to stop your security forces from doing these acts.....because so far you can condemn it as much as you want but nothing has seemed to change.......thats why we have these protest..


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## GreenStar

> Ahh u side stepped my question about behaviour towards Hindus. That is why people are called bigots when they look everything from eyes of religion, Muslims dead I am worried and Hindus dead I am happy.



I'm not looking at this issue from a religious point.....where have i said anywhere in my post that the Indian army is targeting just Muslims.

---------- Post added at 03:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------

And what is this behavior towards Hindues, explain to me then.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> Then its good Pakistan loss Bangladesh, because clearly the people did not want Pakistani rule to govern them. Same with Kashmir the people don't want Indian rule...so give them independence...what is holding you back.......from my opinion its greed.....and your willing to keep land at the expense of knowing that thousands of people will die.......that to me is a shambolic and disgusting goverment who does such a thing.....whether its Pakistan or India.



Did Pakistan hold plebiscite in BD?? No! They held elections and then decided to ignore the results.. So wrong comparison. 

So you are the 1st person from Pakistan who has actually commented on this issue outside the contention of disputed land. So keeping with the spirit are you going to rise above the UN resolution and advice Pakistan on the same lines for the parts where there is / has been a similar movement resulting in people getting killed and assasinated by State machinery??


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## Peshwa

Asim Aquil said:


> Indians deflecting topics to Balochistan, the moon and Mars are all a sign of wimps, and I have nothing to talk to them. Be a man, don't try to derail a thread .
> 
> The problem I have is with the NY Times and Washington Posts of the world. For the past 10 years I've been hearing one big statement after the other against Pakistan. Sometimes we're ranked worse than Afghanistan, sometimes the world's most dangerous place, we're in cahoots with the Taliban, Osama is in Quetta, is in Karachi, is in FATA... I mean god dammit, we're the centre of the universe if the story was told by these news agencies.
> 
> What about India? All the BS about Kashmiris being a part of India has come shattering down, why is the western media thunder totally mum? The BBC, the CNN, they are all giving only passing remarks like "Oh btw, in other news, there's something happening in Kashmir too".
> 
> When that kid, Prince, fell in a manhole in India, that got more news coverage than the months long protests against the Indian state. What does that tell you about the credibility of these organizations?



You expect us to take a pragmatic stand on an issue of independence/freedom to an Indian state....while you bury your head in the sand pretending to ignore a similar call to action happeneing in your own country?

Why shy away from what EjazR asked in a post just a few above yours?

My question to you is....

What makes Kashmir so special that it should be the highlight for all discussions? What makes the Kashmir movement so "right" and every other movement for independence be it Balochistan or Tibet not as important to you?

Dont you find it a least bit hypocritical that on one hand, you support and pretend to have a moral high stand regarding freedom to people of Kashmir..Human rights..ancestral homes hooplah etc about a state thats part of India....
While you ignore, alienate and squash the same call for Independence from one of your own states?....
What makes the Balochis stand so weak compared to the Kashmiris? Dont they deserve freedom?

At least with India...we have dealt all Insurgencies with an even hand.....whether it be the Kashmiris, Khalistanis, ULFA or anything.....

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## Hulk

Mr GreenStar what makes u belive nothing seems to change as per rape is concerned by your own data you could not prove anything in last 1.5 years, so your statement is wrong. About previous rape cases you listed how many are proved to be done by IA? What prove do you have that they were not done by locals?


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## GreenStar

Tell me Indians was that 8 year old paid by separatists as well.....did he deserve to die......this type of thing will never happen in the UK.....thank the lord that I was not born in India.


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## Hulk

The issue about Hindus is that these very Kashmiri's that you are defending raped and loted and killed their brothers just because of them being Hindus. The 200000 or so left valley and are living in camps in delhi. So these people are not innocent. About the 8 year old his parents are MF'S who sent the kid out to prove a point. The was shown the wood but never hit.


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## sensenreason

GreenStar said:


> If that is the case what have you done so far to stop your security forces from doing these acts.....because so far you can condemn it as much as you want but nothing has seemed to change.......thats why we have these protest..



Ok...so hereby...I order that human rights shall not be violated anywhere in J & K by Indian armed forces...forever ! Well..I wish it was so simple sir. My wishes are not everyone's command...

No...its a vicious cycle...ur saying that protests are there becoz of rapes and murders...and Im saying they happen becoz of protests...there is a very big difference...(the murder etc shouldnt happen...I condemn it again...but am powerless to stop it....u could have stopped Kasab...u didnt do it even when u could have)..

Thats why I asked the question...what are they protesting against?


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## GreenStar

> So you are the 1st person from Pakistan who has actually commented on this issue outside the contention of disputed land.



Karan how many times have I told you, that I'm British not Pakistani....as I have a British passport was born here...so was my Dad.....and my grandfather came here a long time ago....probably before you were even born.




> Did Pakistan hold plebiscite in BD?? No! They held elections and then decided to ignore the results.. So wrong comparison.



No it was not a wrong comparison, simply because Bangladeshi's did not like Pakistani rule as a result they protested and forcable took land back from Pakistan......same is happening in India, people don't want your rule......so they are protesting....as a result your squashing that resistance by killing there people. You are a modern Nation, so if you want to keep up with the West..I suggest you change your middle age mentally of keeping land that is not rightfullly your's.


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## Guynextdoor

EjazR said:


> ^^^^Because that is not how we treat our people who are upset with us.
> 
> Do you expect the Pakistanis to agree and take a similar line in Balochistan?
> 
> I fail to understand how Pakistanis can't fathom how deeply connected the Kashimir issue is to India. Itsnot the US in Vietnam thousands of miles away or the Russians in Afghanistan in a land where they don't share their langauge or religion.
> 
> That is why Kashmir is still a part of India when both the "superpowers" had to withdraw.
> 
> The Indian media should rightly raise matters of human concern, the HR violations the unnecessary para military prescence now that militancy has reduced and the lack of use on Non-Lethal crowd control techniques among other things.



And that's the reason why Punjab is with India too. The avergae Indian really doesn't want to discriminate or put someone at a disadvantage. The average Indian doesn't want Sikhs to 'lose their relegion and become hindus' as was being spoken of them. We've always adored and respected their culture. 

Sure we have our problems, but on the whole most of us want to move forward. When manmohan singh became prime minister, it wasn't some token respect for Sikhs- he's there because he DAMN GOOD. 

The same with Kashmiris. I hope that Omar Abdullah someday becomes experienced enough to become one of the big players in the Indian federation (Since Rahul Gandhi will inevitably become PM, I guess an FM type position). Why should I discriminate against competent kashmiris?

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## GreenStar

> u could have stopped Kasab...u didnt do it even when u could have)..



No I could not stop Kassab because I'm British, and I don't live in Pakistan that is the responsibillties of Pakistani's who live in pakistan. While you live in India, as Kashmir is part of India...so you have the option to do something.


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## sensenreason

GreenStar said:


> Tell me Indians was that 8 year old paid by separatists as well.....did he deserve to die......this type of thing will never happen in the UK.....thank the lord that I was not born in India.



Yes..Brits kept their backyard quite clean...while washed their dirty linen in the occupied lands during the empire days...come off your high horse...

Do you know how badly British troops behaved in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Ask Blair...he ordered them...thats what I think of him..


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## Abu Zolfiqar

they protested peacefully, and now i dont hear any unrest there.....

whereas reality is starkly different across LoC....to compare both would be beyond ridiculous. You know it, we know it.


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## sensenreason

GreenStar said:


> No I could not stop Kassab because I'm British, and I don't live in Pakistan that is the responsibillties of Pakistani's who live in pakistan. While you live in India, as Kashmir is part of India...so you have the option to do something.



Firstly...I always believed 26/11 was carried out in connivance with MI6..so yes you could have stopped them and ...

Im sure you are atleast of Pakistani origin...Further...today there was peace in Kashmir...happy...problem solved...right !


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## Pride

Asim Aquil said:


> Well as far as your media is concerned, its raising the concern more of a "OMG, Kashmiris are protesting against us, how do we stop it". Whereas they should be going like "OMG we have finally seen the light the Kashmiris hate us, how do we accept their demands?"



AA, Thats true we are more concerned "Why Kashmiris are protesting against us and what are the best solutions to understand their concerns rather than thinking from some delusional POV of neighbour". This is based on similar pattern of discussing and understand people from North Eastern states. The only reason rest world support our POV in Kashmir because our stand is straightforward and clear on Kashmir issue and they know all these issues can be resolved very easily when Pakistan stop support them "Morally" ( Economically & Militarily as well).


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## GreenStar

> Mr GreenStar what makes u belive nothing seems to change as per rape is concerned by your own data you could not prove anything in last 1.5 years, so your statement is wrong. About previous rape cases you listed how many are proved to be done by IA? What prove do you have that they were not done by locals?




Maybe not in the last 1.5 years, but in the last decade 63 rapes have happened, which has been dished out by your Army. I had this perception that India had a Professional army that was disciplined.......looks like that is not the case...as you have animals residing in your army that have not been punished. Before getting weapons.....you should educate your soilders in not raping.....other wise your reputation as a modern army will go down the drain. You should take pointer in how the UK conducts it army.


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## sensenreason

GreenStar said:


> No I could not stop Kassab because I'm British, and I don't live in Pakistan that is the responsibillties of Pakistani's who live in pakistan. While you live in India, as Kashmir is part of India...so you have the option to do something.



Honestly, I truly believe..Britain should be embargoed for the problems it created around the world when the 2nd world war was ending...like in Middle East, India - Pakistan etc.

I would much rather debate with a bit thick headed but large hearted Pakistani anyday rather than with conniving/clever/cunning/convoluted/twisted Brits who still want to muster an empire out of the their old colonies...


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## Hulk

The Birtish did every evil of world and crossed all levels of barbarity so lecture of peace from them is undigestible. By the way GreenStar what peaceful means Bristh used in Jaliyan wala bagh,


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## Iggy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> *they protested peacefully, and now i dont hear any unrest there.....
> *
> whereas reality is starkly different across LoC....to compare both would be beyond ridiculous. You know it, we know it.



Are you the same one who asked where are the protesters in ***?? what happened ?suddenly now you are seeing protesters??


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## GreenStar

> Yes..Brits kept their backyard quite clean...while washed their dirty linen in the occupied lands during the empire days...come off your high horse..



why are you getting the past involved......my goverment is not killing Kashmir's....its your goverment that is doing all the killings at the present time. So don't get off topic.....and calm down it not healthy for your body.


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## sensenreason

GreenStar said:


> Maybe not in the last 1.5 years, but in the last decade 63 rapes have happened, which has been dished out by your Army. I had this perception that India had a Professional army that was disciplined.......looks like that is not the case...as you have animals residing in your army that have not been punished. Before getting weapons.....you should educate your soilders in not raping.....other wise your reputation as a modern army will go down the drain. You should take pointer in how the UK conducts it army.



63 rapes by an alleged 500,000 troops over 10 years with 5 lac adult women that were living in J & K at the time..thats like a billion rape opportunities...Indian Army's rape rate is much better than 6 sigma....this is purely tougue in cheek...63 is 63 too many...seems like a under estimation to me though given the above calculation.


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## sensenreason

GreenStar said:


> why are you getting the past involved......my goverment is not killing Kashmir's....its your goverment that is doing all the killings at the present time. So don't get off topic.....and calm down it not healthy for your body.



Afghanistan and Iraq are very much current...go to Wikileaks..and read...Im very calm...and about to doze off...!


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> *they protested peacefully*, and now i dont hear any unrest there.....
> 
> whereas reality is starkly different across LoC....to compare both would be beyond ridiculous. You know it, we know it.



Peaceful protest does not involve a gun fight.


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## GreenStar

To all the Indians why get Britian involved in this discussion.....this topic is not about my goverment.


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## Hulk

add to that 63 are alleged where is proof which court of law proved it?


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## Ganga

GreenStar said:


> Maybe not in the last 1.5 years, but in the last decade 63 rapes have happened, which has been dished out by your Army. I had this perception that India had a Professional army that was disciplined.......looks like that is not the case...as you have animals residing in your army that have not been punished. Before getting weapons.....you should educate your soilders in not raping.....other wise your reputation as a modern army will go down the drain. You should take pointer in how the UK conducts it army.



U dont have to worry abt the IA.I think u should be more concerned abt your british army.I have seen how they treat PoWs.The world saw how British soilders pulled naked Iraqi PoWs like dogs with chains that were tied to their necks.
And i think i mentioned it earlier that the IA rarely carries out ops in Kashmir nowadays.


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## sensenreason

GreenStar said:


> To all the Indians why get Britian involved in this discussion.....this topic is not about my goverment.



Sure...but please first learn to spell your country correctly.

B R I T A I N...got it ?


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## GreenStar

> Sure...but please first learn to spell your country correctly.



You are going off...topic......is your blood boiling...knowing that the truth is beginning to set in your mind....what type of disgusting Army you have.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> Well Kashmir's don't feel that way......other wise they would not have come out on to the street's and protest. Women and Men of all ages are involved in this protest.....just the other day Ejaz a Pakistan member showed a article where an Indian Security officer shoved a baton down a 8 year old throat.....was that right Karan......do you support such aggressive behavior of your secrurity forces.



No I dont support any child getting injured in any event by anyone. Where the blame lies, though needs to be seen. Would like to see a link to that article (not a blog) and the credebility of the link. And would want to see the parents of that child prosecuted for causing injury due to willful negligence. 


About coming out on streets and protesting...Go back a few months when Karachi was burning due to protests by the public against electricity shortage. It was still on the streets..The public memory is too fickle.. Dont tie too much hopes to that...


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## Guynextdoor

Peshwa said:


> You expect us to take a pragmatic stand on an issue of independence/freedom to an Indian state....while you bury your head in the sand pretending to ignore a similar call to action happeneing in your own country?
> 
> Why shy away from what EjazR asked in a post just a few above yours?
> 
> My question to you is....
> 
> What makes Kashmir so special that it should be the highlight for all discussions? What makes the Kashmir movement so "right" and every other movement for independence be it Balochistan or Tibet not as important to you?
> 
> Dont you find it a least bit hypocritical that on one hand, you support and pretend to have a moral high stand regarding freedom to people of Kashmir..Human rights..ancestral homes hooplah etc about a state thats part of India....
> While you ignore, alienate and squash the same call for Independence from one of your own states?....
> What makes the Balochis stand so weak compared to the Kashmiris? Dont they deserve freedom?
> 
> At least with India...we have dealt all Insurgencies with an even hand.....whether it be the Kashmiris, Khalistanis, ULFA or anything.....


'Kashmir' is special for very different reasons. The litmus test of their 'love for the kasmiri people' can be seen in what they've done to what's called 'Azaad Kashmir'. Poor, underdeveloped, politically unstable and swarming with extremists- that's the real legacy of pakistani rule in their occupied area. 

The 'love of kashmiri people' and their 'rights' is a blatant lie. it has always been a strategy- once kashmir moves out, it sets a precendent and it becomes possible for other regions to ask for independence (yeah that's gonna happen). And then ( in the minds of delusional pakistani govt. members), they'll be ruling a hundred afghanistans all around them and be a 'great power'. And what are the achievements of this 'great power'- little policitcal stability, little economic prosperity and little clarity on moving to a better future. In the end, even this Kashmir would be in as much of a mess as the occupied one.


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## GreenStar

> I would much rather debate with a bit thick headed but large hearted Pakistani anyday rather than with conniving/clever/cunning/convoluted/twisted Brits who still want to muster an empire out of the their old colonies..




And for that I will report you to the Moderator.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> Tell me Indians was that 8 year old paid by separatists as well.....did he deserve to die......this type of thing will never happen in the UK.....thank the lord that I was not born in India.



Unfortunate Collateral Damage.. People who started these riots are responsible as are parents who send their 8 year olds along with the rioters..

And yes.. Thank God you were not born in India..


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## Ganga

GreenStar said:


> You are going off...topic......is your blood boiling...knowing that the truth is beginning to set in your mind....*what type of disgusting Army you have*.



Firstly i dont think u are a British national.Maybe u r a British national of Pakistani origin.Secondly i would suggest that u dont comment on our army .U dont know anything abt our army.If u really want to discuss, then discuss abt the possible methods by which the problems of Kashmir can be solved.


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## sam27

Self Deleted


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## GreenStar

Listen Ganga if the British army did that....to what the Indian army did to that 8 year old, there would be condemnation through out Britain.



> Firstly i dont think u are a British national.Maybe u r a British national of Pakistani origin



I would be careful if I was you....because the last perosn who said that was given a warning by the moderator.


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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> You are occupying them; therefore your argument is totally flawed. They dont want you there. Thats why they are revolting.



Lets see 2 weeks down the line.. They were fine a few weeks back, they will be fine a few weeks down the line. You can keep blowing the occupying trumpet.. Doesnt change anything..






Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Who is hitting the brick wall?


You put the emoticon, so I assume its you...





Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I was referring to Kashmiris


I mentioned a challenge to Pakistan.. Not Kashmiris.. 







Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Sure we could actually; because last I checked, according to even hindustany media  naxal are in 1/3 of india and that is just one of a handful of rebel movements. But thats a whole other subject.


Yes.. A separate topic just like the abiliity of Taliban to strike with impunity anywhere in Pakistan (100% ?).. I would say better than 1/3rd






Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Its a land dispute.people live in those lands; you are sadly naive to think they will just pack up and go.


No one is asking them to pack up and go either. Their choice.. Stay or leave.. 






Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Kashmir is an integral part of hindustan
> 
> Your favourite adage. Unfortunately for you, its farthest from the truth. In Azad Kashmir, I dont see people throwing rocks and objects at our forces. Pooch lo kyu Because we give them almost full autonomy and dont treat them like subjects.



Yeah.. I know that autonomy. Virtually every neutral source rates Pakistan administered Kashmir significantly lower than J&K on human rights and autonomy.. Refer to recent EU paper as well as Amnesty international report..



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> You on the other hand, your strategy is failing miserably. Kill 2 people, you created 35 more enemies who will denounce your presence. In that sense, you are only doing a service to Pakistan; and most importantly, you are just sowing the seeds for further anti hindustan sentiment


Check the trend of violence in J&K and contrast it with Pakistan's situation.. Very visible where strategy is working and where not. Last I checked, civilian lives claimed by such insurgency is second highest in Pakistan.. Only next to Afghanistan




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Nope. No matter how you try to mis-construe it, those are 2 more innocent lives taken away by the occupying forces.
> 
> Imposing curfew, target killing and intimidation wont be effective tool


Watch and learn...





Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Worlds largest democracy hard at work, ey?


Yes...


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## karan.1970

indianrabbit said:


> The Birtish did every evil of world and crossed all levels of barbarity so lecture of peace from them is undigestible. By the way GreenStar what peaceful means Bristh used in Jaliyan wala bagh,



Dont get pulled into British Bashing.. Thats what the flags are for...

Reactions: Like Like:
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## GreenStar

> Dont get pulled into British Bashing.. Thats what the flags are for.



That is what I was thinking......Britain is not linked to this topic....I don't know why your fellow countrymen get emotional when this is a public forum.....you lot our grown men, and you can't even debate with a 19 year old........gosh if I showed this to my friends they would laugh.


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## amit27

gulfnews : Independence not ideal for Kashmir


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## Peshwa

Guynextdoor said:


> And that's the reason why Punjab is with India too. The avergae Indian really doesn't want to discriminate or put someone at a disadvantage. The average Indian doesn't want Sikhs to 'lose their relegion and become hindus' as was being spoken of them. We've always adored and respected their culture.
> 
> 
> 
> Someone once said....
> 
> "Sikh Hindustan Ki Chaddar Hain"...in reference to their massive presence in the armed forces along with their contirbution towards the Independence and security of our Union.....
> 
> And Rightly said too....
> 
> I grew up with Sikhs and one of my best friends is Sikh....it makes me ashamed to think of what happened to them...
> 
> Nevertheless, I am completely fine with the likes of Bindhrawale and the Babbar Khalsans being dealt with severly....same goes for Sangh Parivar, MNS and their ilk!
> 
> Terrorists have no religion.....Lets make sure we maintain that stand....
Click to expand...


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## Guynextdoor

Peshwa said:


> Guynextdoor said:
> 
> 
> 
> And that's the reason why Punjab is with India too. The avergae Indian really doesn't want to discriminate or put someone at a disadvantage. The average Indian doesn't want Sikhs to 'lose their relegion and become hindus' as was being spoken of them. We've always adored and respected their culture.
> 
> 
> 
> Someone once said....
> 
> "Sikh Hindustan Ki Chaddar Hain"...in reference to their massive presence in the armed forces along with their contirbution towards the Independence and security of our Union.....
> 
> And Rightly said too....
> 
> I grew up with Sikhs and one of my best friends is Sikh....it makes me ashamed to think of what happened to them...
> 
> Nevertheless, I am completely fine with the likes of Bindhrawale and the Babbar Khalsans being dealt with severly....same goes for Sangh Parivar, MNS and their ilk!
> 
> Terrorists have no religion.....Lets make sure we maintain that stand....
> 
> 
> 
> Yap, the day we get sangh parivar and the ilk given a taste of the lathi will be the day we start truly moving away from retrograde tendencies.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Peshwa

Guynextdoor said:


> '*Kashmir' is special for very different reasons. The litmus test of their 'love for the kasmiri people' can be seen in what they've done to what's called 'Azaad Kashmir'. Poor, underdeveloped, politically unstable and swarming with extremists- that's the real legacy of pakistani rule in their occupied area. *
> The 'love of kashmiri people' and their 'rights' is a blatant lie. it has always been a strategy- once kashmir moves out, it sets a precendent and it becomes possible for other regions to ask for independence (yeah that's gonna happen). And then ( in the minds of delusional pakistani govt. members), they'll be ruling a hundred afghanistans all around them and be a 'great power'. And what are the achievements of this 'great power'- little policitcal stability, little economic prosperity and little clarity on moving to a better future. In the end, even this Kashmir would be in as much of a mess as the occupied one.



I can understand if the "Azad" Kashmir as they call it was a Mecca of development, prosperity and hapiness, an envy of South Asia.....but the sad part is....It is not!!

Nor is Pakistan doing so well in other parts of its domain either.....I dont see a reason other than the religious similarity that would make Pakistan favorable for Kashmiris from an economic prosperity or security standpoint.....

The point is, even if Kashmir becomes independent or a part of Pakistan....There is a very strong chance that it will become the next Afghanistan in the region.....

Kashmiris with an affinity to Pak or independence need to think in the long term.....


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## Tshering22

Peshwa said:


> I can understand if the "Azad" Kashmir as they call it was a Mecca of development, prosperity and hapiness, an envy of South Asia.....but the sad part is....It is not!!
> 
> Nor is Pakistan doing so well in other parts of its domain either.....I dont see a reason other than the religious similarity that would make Pakistan favorable for Kashmiris from an economic prosperity or security standpoint.....
> 
> The point is, even if Kashmir becomes independent or a part of Pakistan....There is a very strong chance that it will become the next Afghanistan in the region.....
> 
> Kashmiris with an affinity to Pak or independence need to think in the long term.....


Those who think in terms of religion for everything, whether it is politics, military or any other branch of abstract, will fail to understand you and trust me; when I say this it means a whole host of people on PDF. 

Considering this we can put the Atheist communists and these extremists in the same basket.


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## M82

@Asim
you people occupied part of kashmir to give independence right?? where was the independence??? why are you still holding it??

personally i think RAW must take actions against these separatists not the local police or the Indian Army, it will fuel the hatred against the locals...


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## Peshwa

dabong1 said:


> A. G. Noorani
> a secular Indian Muslim, is a lawyer and political analyst. He is is an Advocate in the Supreme Court of India and a leading Constitutional expert. His columns appear in The Hindustan Times, Frontline, Economic and Political Weekly and Dainik Bhaskar.



A.G. Noorani...the same man criticizing the Vande Mataram for being imposed on the Muslims.....and voicing personal opinions on nonsensical BS! 
I mean we find tree huggers like him left, right and centre ....Arundhati Roy being another favorite among the Pakistanis......I can see why you chose to quote him....

However what makes the words of this man so credible?
I mean recently another prominent personality....a State leader, representative of one of the leading superpowers of the world spoke quite confidently about the "export of terror".....This man, probably more informed than Mr. Noorani here has been criticized for his claims and put down as non-credible....
Maybe we should believe him too....what say?
Whats surprising here is that you're selective on listening to the opinion of one Indian that favors yours....but when it comes to others, you dismiss them....CONVINIENT!

However, in true spirit of PDF.....instead of dismissing your claim.....Why dont you show me some proof, and I mean documents or other evidence other than this man's "claim" that the fact that Pakistan did not cede any land to China? Because every one under the sun except those living under a rock claim otherwise.....

PS: BTW....If AG.Noorani is actually right....as you claim, Why are the Pakistanis fighting only the Indians? Shouldnt they be up the Chinese *** aswell? Or if the Chinese are so brotherly....why not hand over Kashmir to you...which you claim as right fully yours?

And in all of this....where is the right of "self-determination" of the Kashmiris? Howcome the hypocirtes in your Govt. failed to bring this up?
At least India claims Aksai Chin and all of Kashmir including N/A. Pakistan seems to be compromising the "right of the Kashmiris" by rolling over for the Chinese.....
Truly a moral war you people are fighting!!


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## Guynextdoor

Peshwa said:


> I can understand if the "Azad" Kashmir as they call it was a Mecca of development, prosperity and hapiness, an envy of South Asia.....but the sad part is....It is not!!
> 
> Nor is Pakistan doing so well in other parts of its domain either.....*I dont see a reason other than the religious similarity that would make Pakistan favorable for Kashmiris *from an economic prosperity or security standpoint.....
> 
> The point is, even if Kashmir becomes independent or a part of Pakistan....There is a very strong chance that it will become the next Afghanistan in the region.....
> 
> Kashmiris with an affinity to Pak or independence need to think in the long term.....



That was the ORIGINAL plank on which Kashmir was demanded for a good 30 years from Jinnah's time...'how can a Muslim majority area be handed over to India?'. And then 1971 happened...a Muslim majority area of pakistan asked them to go take a hike and declared independence. From then taing 'muslim majority' stand became ridiculous because pakistan was no longer the sole protector of the muslims in the subcontinent. So they switched planks from 'muslim' identity to 'self determination'. 
Hundreds of pakistanis will line up to get killed for Kashmir today, but will they do it for say, building a dam for their country...no way!! If they lose to India it's a big deal, but if they lost to china (hypothetically), they'd blame themselves for having invited a war to start with. So much for their patriotic nationalism.


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## Peshwa

Guynextdoor said:


> That was the ORIGINAL plank on which Kashmir was demanded for a good 30 years from Jinnah's time...'how can a Muslim majority area be handed over to India?'. And then 1971 happened...a Muslim majority area of pakistan asked them to go take a hike and declared independence. From then taing 'muslim majority' stand became ridiculous because pakistan was no longer the sole protector of the muslims in the subcontinent. *So they switched planks from 'muslim' identity to 'self determination'*.
> Hundreds of pakistanis will line up to get killed for Kashmir today, but will they do it for say, building a dam for their country...no way!! If they lose to India it's a big deal, but if they lost to china (hypothetically), they'd blame themselves for having invited a war to start with. So much for their patriotic nationalism.



And that has been a question I have been asking the Pakistanis on this forum that they have yet to answer.....

"What makes Kashmir's demand so special as compared to say Balochistan (Sue me) or Tibet? Why is their right to self-determination legitimate, but not other places world over including the one in their very own backyard?"

I fail to understand this hypocrisy!!


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## Ganga

GreenStar said:


> Listen Ganga if the British army did that....to what the Indian army did to that 8 year old, there would be condemnation through out Britain.



i dont know why you are bringing this matter up again and again.Can u tell me how many 8 year olds were killed by the British soilders in the Iraq and Afghan campaign.I dont think people in UK even care a bit abt the people in these two countries.Did u forget abt the 'bloody sunday' where several human rights activists were killed in cold blood by British troops in northern Ireland.

Please do not project your nation as the one which cannot do anything wrong and always does the right thing.The deaths of civilians anywhere in the world is unfortunate and many Indians genuinely hope that kashmir will come out of the mess and that kashmiris will have a good life.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Police Harassing Photo-Journalists in Occupied Kashmir​*


> Srinagar, August 06 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, photojournalists have said that paramilitary troopers and policemen are not allowing them to perform their professional duties in the Kashmir Valley.
> 
> A group of photojournalists said, Policemen did not allow us to reach Ganpatyar Habba Kadal in Srinagar to cover the funeral procession of one Ghulam Muhammad who was killed in CRPF firing.
> 
> They said that on Wednesday a police party led by Superintendent of Police beat up photojournalists near Rajbagh. Policemen tore curfew passes of three of our colleagues and beat them up mercilessly, they added.
> 
> The photojournalists said that the police and CRPF personnel were on the look out for them. They are looking for excuses to beat us, they added.



Police harassing photojournalists in occupied Kashmir | Kashmir Media Service


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## Abu Zolfiqar

_India urged to withdraw troops, repeal black laws_



> Srinagar, August 06 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, despite curfew and heavy rains, people staged forceful anti-India demonstrations at several places across the territory, today.
> 
> Defying curfew, thousands of people took to the streets in Eidgah, Soura, Hyderpora, Nowpora, Lal Bazar, Amda Kadal, Bota Kadal, Baagwanpora, Anarbagh, Bandipore, Islamabad, Arwani, Pulwama, Ganderbal, Kupwara, Handwara, Budgam, Kulgam, Shopian, Sopore, Kreeri and other areas.Dozens of people were injured when Indian troops resorted to firing and excessive teargas shelling on protesters in Badgam and Rajwar areas.
> 
> Complete shutdown was observed in Doda town to protest against the killing spree in the Kashmir Valley. Hundreds of people took out marches in Doda, Surenkote, Meindher, Poonch, Rajouri, Kishtwar, Banihal and Ramban areas. APHC leader, Ghulam Ahmed Mir led a procession in Thanamandi.
> 
> An innocent Kashmiri youth, who was injured in the firing of troops on peaceful protestors in Pulwama, yesterday, succumbed to his injuries.
> 
> The occupation authorities continued to place the APHC Chairman, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Agha Syed Hassan Al-Moosvi under house arrest, preventing them from offering Juma prayers. Due to curfew restrictions, Juma congregational prayers could not be held at historic Jamia Masjid for the sixth successive week.
> 
> Addressing a gathering at Hyderpora Mosque, veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Gilani urged India to withdraw its troops, repeal black laws and take steps to resolve the Kashmir dispute. He maintained that India would not be able to crush Kashmir movement through its state terrorism.
> 
> In Islamabad, a meeting of the APHC-AJK chapter, held with Convenor, Mehmood Ahmad Saghar in chair, rejected the illegal occupation of Jammu and Kashmir by India and reiterated the pledge to continue the struggle till securing the inalienable right to self-determination.
> 
> The heads of Kashmir Centres in London and Brussels, Professor Nazir Ahmed Shawl and Barrister Abdul Majeed Tramboo jointly addressing a press conference in London denounced use of brute force on peaceful protesters in occupied Kashmir. Earlier, the Kashmiri students in London held a protest demonstration outside Indian High commission and raised Go India go slogans.
> 
> And in Ladakh, more than hundred people were feared dead in flash floods triggered by massive cloudbursts. 25 Indian army personnel have gone missing.




Forceful anti-India demos in occupied Kashmir | Kashmir Media Service


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## Ganga

Asim Aquil said:


> This is out of India's control now, it is even out of the control of the separatists and has become a people's movement.
> 
> Pretty soon there will calls for a Long March to Srinagar and then a Long march to New Delhi!!



I dont think so.Such uprisings have occured earlier too and resulted in nothing.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

unfortunately for you


a.) news was already posted (on this forum)


b.) it's an aging report


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

Perhaps the Naxalite situation will bring some appeasements out of Delhi regarding Kashmir. Otherwise it is quite possible that India be en-strangled in a vice grip of insurgency from one end of the country to the other.


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## GreenStar

> Can u tell me how many 8 year olds were killed by the British soilders in the Iraq and Afghan campaign.



Well they died because it was an accident, but you don't get UK soilders getting a baton and shoving it down an 8 year old throat......how do you answer that. Plus this is not about what the UK does.....as this thread is Indian related...so the responsibilty of defending Indian action is upon you. Make another thread about UK troops behaving badly.


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## secularguy

> How many generations till Indians say f*** it?


This is No More A Emotional issue.Only a Real Idiot Can Think that Kashmir Problem Resolution will Bring Peace to this Region.It is NOT.Infact ,Kashmiris Will Also be in National Mainstream provided that Virulent Flavours are not Forced on Them.

Infact ,The Reasons are Many Which Cannot be Discussed or Can Be Understood so Easily.

But ,Our Nation's Integrity will be at Stake with or without(The Ideology of Claiming Muslim Pockets as Part of Some Other Nation) Kashmir Resolution.

Kashmir is an Indian Territory Just Like any other Region.These Brainwashed Generations of Kashmir Valley cannot be accounted and allowed the so Called Freedom(to Destruction) as it will be a Historical Blunder with Kashmir going to be Like Medieval Arabia.

India is Helping Kashmir Remain Free from Destructive Ideologies.May be,It'll Take a 50 or 100 Years;But Kashmir Problem will be solved with Kashmir Valley's Population part of National MainStream.


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## GreenStar

> The deaths of civilians anywhere in the world is unfortunate



Then why did your Army kill 45 people....maybe in there opinion it is not unfortunate. I Just don't understand how Indian Army can kill kids.......some of the pictures that have come from the media..........paints a very horrifying situation in which Kashmiri's face under Indian rule.


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## Guynextdoor

secularguy said:


> This is No More A Emotional issue.Only a Real Idiot Can Think that Kashmir Problem Resolution will Bring Peace to this Region.It is NOT.Infact ,Kashmiris Will Also be in National Mainstream provided that Virulent Flavours are not Forced on Them.
> 
> Infact ,The Reasons are Many Which Cannot be Discussed so Easily.But ,Our Nation's Integrity will be at Stake with or without Kashmir Resolution.Kashmir is an Indian Territory Just Like any other Region.These Brainwashed Generations cannot be accounted and accepted to the so Called Freedom(to Destruction) as it will be a Historical Blunder with Kashmir going to be Like Medieval Arabia.India is Helping Kashmir Remain Free from Destructive Ideologies.


Exactly, believing that Pakistan will stop with Kahmir is as laughable as saying that Hitler or Germany would stop with Austria. Remember the lessons of the Second WW? Never let an unreasonable aggressor get away with anything, never let his bad behavior go unchecked. And that was Hitler, this is some pakistani army...we must be pansies not to put them down.


----------



## GreenStar

> Did u forget abt the 'bloody sunday' where several human rights activists were killed in cold blood by British troops in northern Ireland.



That was a long time ago, its been 38 years since bloody Sunday occured, even then at least Our Prime Minister apoligised......what have you done......I persume nothing as the killings are going on. 

How Cameron's Bloody Sunday apology brings a tragic era to an end - The Globe and Mail

Dark past, bright future: The legacy of Bloody Sunday - UK Politics, UK - The Independent

At least we have resolved the Irish issue, have you resolved the Kashmir issue......I think not with all the killings that have happened.


----------



## GreenStar

> Can u tell me how many 8 year olds were killed by the British soilders in the Iraq and Afghan campaign



If that is the case ganga why is there ex Indian Soilders in Iraq.

US recruiting Indian ex-soldiers for Iraq

You were saying........


----------



## Ganga

GreenStar said:


> Then why did your Army kill 45 people....maybe in there opinion it is not unfortunate. I Just don't understand how Indian Army can kill kids.......some of the pictures that have come from the media..........paints a very horrifying situation in which Kashmiri's face under Indian rule.



Cant u understand the simple thing.THEY ARE NOT THE ARMY.how many times should i tell you this.The paramilitary forces and the J&K state police are trying to contain the situation.The army hesitantly came to the streets a few days ago under pressure and did nothing but held a flag march.

Regarding the question as to why 45 civilians were killed ,i would like you to put yourself in the position of the police jawans and think.Just consider having a gun with a few rounds and being surrounded by mobs with big rocks in their hands.


----------



## Ganga

GreenStar said:


> If that is the case ganga why is there ex Indian Soilders in Iraq.
> 
> US recruiting Indian ex-soldiers for Iraq
> 
> You were saying........



What is ur point???Moreover the article says that they are recruited for "support services" and not for active duty.


----------



## GreenStar

Here is another one.....

Asia Times Online - The best news coverage from South Asia

Let me tell you something's I don't agree with Britain going into Iraq or Afghanistan.....but you know what I have been at the protests of 2003, 2005 and 2006.....so I have at least done my duty in vocing my opinion on the wrongdoings of my goverment.........what have you done......I'm very interested to know........I at least did somethings......while you are sitting in your home and saying Jackall when your goverment is killing innocent people.


----------



## Ganga

GreenStar said:


> Here is another one.....
> 
> 
> 
> *Let me tell you something's I don't agree with Britain going into Iraq or Afghanistan.....but you know what I have been at the protests of 2003, 2005 and 2006.....so I have at least done my duty in vocing my opinion on the wrongdoings of my goverment*.........what have you done......I'm very interested to know........I at least did somethings......while you are sitting in your home and saying Jackall when your goverment is killing innocent people.



How do i know wether u r saying the truth or not.anyone can claim anything.


----------



## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> Then why did your Army kill 45 people....maybe in there opinion it is not unfortunate. *I Just don't understand how Indian Army can kill kids*.......some of the pictures that have come from the media..........paints a very horrifying situation in which Kashmiri's face under Indian rule.



a. The mobs in Kashmir are sparring with Paramilitary forces and Police which consists of ethnic Kashmiris as a majority...NOT the Army.....

b. a bullet from a 5 year old is just as effective as that from a 50 year old....
So when....a "kid" as you call them takes up arms and gets shot in the process of breaking the law, committing arson and destroying state property....he/she fails to be considered a kid....no better than another criminal....he shouldnt have done it in the first place....

As I mentioned elsewhere...
"Dont grow a cactus if you cant handle the prick"

If you garner the balls to attack state troops, then be ready to have your balls broken as well....

Its only instigators and uber humanists that use the the garb of death of "kids" to justify faux causes... 

Besides, you're talking as though we are targeting kids.....and what about those instigators using these kids as nothing more than human shields and "bait" to achieve cause to their ill intentions?


----------



## GreenStar

> Regarding the question as to why 45 civilians were killed ,i would like you to put yourself in the position of the police jawans and think.Just consider having a gun with a few rounds and being surrounded by mobs with big rocks in their hands.




Its a policeman's duty to control public order.....now let me give you an example of a case in the UK.

BBC News - G20 death Pc faces gross misconduct disciplinary action


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## GreenStar

> How do i know wether u r saying the truth or not.anyone can claim anything.



You don't have to believe it......I at least know within my own heart that I tried my best in stoping my goverment from doing a mistake....it didn't work...but at least I did my bit....whether you believe it not...I could careless.


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## amit27

GreenStar said:


> Its a policeman's duty to control public order.....now let me give you an example of a case in the UK.
> 
> BBC News - G20 death Pc faces gross misconduct disciplinary action




UK is not India u nutter why u comparing the western world with a emerging country?


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## Ganga

GreenStar said:


> Its a policeman's duty to control public order.....now let me give you an example of a case in the UK.



It is a citizens duty to protest in a civilized manner.Pelting stones will not help.


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## GreenStar

> The mobs in Kashmir are sparring with Paramilitary forces and Police which consists of ethnic Kashmiris as a majority...NOT the Army.....



Okay its's the paramilitary force that is killing the civilians......but its still Indian...so your goverment should still be held accountable for its actions.


----------



## GreenStar

> It is a citizens duty to protest in a civilized manner.Pelting stones will not help.




You seem to have stopped commenting on the Iraq and Bloody Sunday issue...did you realised that...Indians are fighting in Iraq aswell even though they are ex soilders.


----------



## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> Okay its's the paramilitary force that is killing the civilians......but its still Indian...so your goverment should still be held accountable for its actions.



Did you read the rest of my post?

If its kids that you're worried about, then please also do consider the teenagers the Taliban uses to achieve their causes.....Target Pakistanis and Afghans in their respective countries....who also get killed by Pakistani, US and other allied troops on a daily basis.....

I dont hear you make a hue and cry about the operations there.....Do those kids fail to qualify for your compassion?


----------



## Ganga

GreenStar said:


> You seem to have stopped commenting on the Iraq and Bloody Sunday issue...did you realised that...Indians are fighting in Iraq aswell even though they are ex soilders.



I think u were the one who told me not to bring Iraq and Afghanistan as it links the British.I guess u have run out of arguments.


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## GreenStar

> It is a citizens duty to protest in a civilized manner.Pelting stones will not help.



When things go out of hand, then its a policeman's duty to calm the situation down......thats when there training kicks in.......so why don't you file a partition and complain to your goverment in why your police force is not trained properly instead of buying expensive weapons. 

Now that is two things I have noticed....no water gun tank.....and inadequate police training.....what a failure.


----------



## GreenStar

> I think u were the one who told me not to bring Iraq and Afghanistan as it links the British.I guess u have run out of arguments.



Okay I won't bring it up....but I only used it because to show you that Ex Indian soilders are in Iraq....which was basically a slap in the face to you because you were so bold in condemning my goverment...that you forgot your own failure.


----------



## amit27

GreenStar said:


> When things go out of hand, then its a policeman's duty to calm the situation down......thats when there training kicks in.......so why don't you file a partition and complain to your goverment in why your police force is not trained properly instead of buying expensive weapons.
> 
> Now that is two things I have noticed....no water gun tank.....and inadequate police training.....what a failure.




Your not even Kashmiri lol yet you think you know all the ground facts, India is not a rich country that it can mirror the western countries in riot control methods, but as the economy gets bigger then it can afford to spend on water canons and rubber bullets.


----------



## Ganga

GreenStar said:


> Okay I won't bring it up....but I only used it because to show you that Ex Indian soilders are in Iraq....which was basically a slap in the face to you because you were so bold in condemning my goverment...that you forgot your own failure.



Do u even realize that there is a word EX in front of 'indian soilders'.They are like mercenaries.The GOI did not send them to Iraq.They went on their own .They do not represent the country.And mercenaries exist in the UK too.


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## GreenStar

> If its kids that you're worried about, then please also do consider the teenagers the Taliban uses to achieve their causes.....Target Pakistanis and Afghans in their respective countries....who also get killed by Pakistani, US and other allied troops on a daily basis.....



Sorry I'm coming around to answer your post...But let me answer this post first. Are you comparing the Taliban to the Indian govement.....looks to me you don't have a high opinion of your own goverment. Taliban is a group not a proper fully internationally recognized goverment......so it your duty to act responsible.....we should expect that....as you claim to be democratic. The thread is about India so of course primarly it about why India is killing Kids...not Pakistan or US, make another thread for it.


----------



## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> Sorry I'm coming around to answer your post...But let me answer this post first. Are you comparing the Taliban to the Indian govement.....looks to me you don't have a high opinion of your own goverment. Taliban is a group not a proper fully internationally recognized goverment......so it your duty to act responsible.....we should expect that....as you claim to be democratic. The thread is about India so of course primarly it about why India is killing Kids...not Pakistan or US, make another thread for it.



You fail to understand Buddy....

Im drawing parallels between:

The act of killing violators of law....some kids in this case by the Indian govt.
to
The act of kiilling kids who are Taliban by the Pakistani army, US and UK forces....

Again....both are govt mandated operations.....

I question your compassion towards the Kashmiris but not to the kids in the Taliban since you seem to have a bias in one situation over the other....

The question you asked was..."How can the Indian Army Kill kids"
The answe is....the same way the Pakistanis, the Americans and the Brits do it....


----------



## GreenStar

> Your not even Kashmiri lol yet you think you know all the ground facts, India is not a rich country that it can mirror the western countries in riot control methods, but as the economy gets bigger then it can afford to spend on water canons and rubber bullets.



Oh so your not as rich as western countries, yet you can afford to buy Airplanes that cost Billions, submarines, and other defence equipments.....yet you can't buy a poxy water gun tank.....that is a flawed argument.......there is no doubt India has the money.....yet it can't be bothered.......shame on the goverment.


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## GreenStar

> a bullet from a 5 year old is just as effective as that from a 50 year old....
> So when....a "kid" as you call them takes up arms and gets shot in the process of breaking the law,



Did that 8 year kid have a gun......I don't think so.......are the protesters using guns.....I don't think so. Your logic is flawed.


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## GreenStar

> So when....a "kid" as you call them takes up arms and gets shot in the process of breaking the law, committing arson and destroying state property....he/she fails to be considered a kid....no better than another criminal....he shouldnt have done it in the first place...



Not by UK law.....and by the way your comparing the mindset of a child of that to an Adult.....that is pretty funny.....so if every child in this world behaves stupidly....should we kill them as by your logic. Police are there to help the publc...I'm sure the Indian police force could have retrainst him....because that is when your police training kicks in. If not then it is your own goverments fault in not training your police force...its as simple as that.


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> Did that 8 year kid have a gun......I don't think so.......are the protesters using guns.....I don't think so. Your logic is flawed.



Have you heard of the story about David and Goliath?

Did you know that a pebble was the reason for Goliaths demise?

A stone is as much a weapon as a gun....
In fact, old cannons used a solid molten stone/rock with gunpowder to projectile into enemy formations....

The weapon aside, my point is law is equal for all....especially when you deal with the laws of the country......the child disobeyed Indian law....pelted the state forces of India....and got shot in defence.....

He shouldnt be playing man if he cant be one.....What stopped him from staying home? Unless you suggest that the Police rounded him up especially since he was a kid and executed him?

Cmon..GS...Enuf.....you cant win this argument


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## gurjot

Peshwa said:


> Have you hear of the story about David and Goliath?
> 
> Did you know that a pebble was the reason for Goliaths demise?
> 
> A stone is as much a weapon as a gun....
> In fact, old cannons used a solid molten stone/rock with gunpowder to projectile into enemy formations....
> 
> The weapon aside, my point is law is equal for all....especially when you deal with the laws of the country......the child disobeyed Indian law....pelted the state forces of India....and got shot in defence.....
> 
> He shouldnt be playing man if he cant be one.....What stopped him from staying home? Unless you suggest that the Police rounded him up especially since he was a kid and executed him?
> 
> Cmon..GS...Enuf.....you cant win this argument



so jao yaar


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> Not by UK law.....and by the way your comparing the mindset of a child of that to an Adult.....that is pretty funny.....so if every child in this world behaves stupidly....should we kill them as by your logic. Police are there to help the publc...I'm sure the Indian police force could have retrainst him....because that is when your police training kicks in. If not then it is your own goverments fault in not training your police force...its as simple as that.



Why dont u understand......

The police was firing at mobs....if a kid happened to be in it...and got killed....how is the police to blame?
Why was the kid in a mob?

And there is a difference between kids acting stupid and kids trying to be violent, destroy state property and indulge in arson....

Anarchy will not be tolerated!

And UK law is no basis for comparison....This happened in Indian territory...Only Indian law applies.....


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## GreenStar

> If you garner the balls to attack state troops, then be ready to have your balls broken as well.



Again your comparing the mindset of a child to that of an Adult.......you know what I'm gonna ask this to other English people and espicallly law and psychology students and see what they say.....because its simply laughable in which you say that its okay for a soilder to kill a kid if he goes against the troops. Instead of killing him educate him.....its your fault in why he is like that.....its as simple as that.


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## InPhilTraitor

The Security Apparatus that is deployed in Kashmir is not well trained in Riot Management. There are Rapid Action Force units esp. to handle riots active. I used to see them always deployed near Charminar in Old City - Hyderabad. Some one like that would be better equipped than guys with guns or lathis, in handling the Intifada style stone throwing crowd.

Having said that, it is sad what is happening in Kashmir. There should many steps taken, esp. that will ensure respect for Human rights and civil liberties of people. There is so much political drama that keeps on going, that any drastic steps in Kashmir are seen as unpatriotic. A more pragmatic approach is necessary for ensuring peace in the valley, throwing security forces by numbers will only create/strengthen a police state.


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> Again your comparing the mindset of a child to that of an Adult.......you know what I'm gonna ask this to other English people and espicallly law and psychology students and see what they say.....because its simply laughable in which you say that its okay for a soilder to kill a kid if he goes against the troops. Instead of killing him educate him.....its your fault in why he is like that.....its as simple as that.



I have a degree in Psychology.....and I am surprised at how hard you're trying....
Secondly....I dont need English approval to justify Indian actions...this aint colonial India....

Anyways....I think you should read one of my other posts to you and answer ther question I posed there....

See below:



> You fail to understand Buddy....
> 
> Im drawing parallels between:
> 
> The act of killing violators of law....some kids in this case by the Indian govt.
> to
> The act of kiilling kids who are Taliban by the Pakistani army, US and UK forces....
> 
> Again....both are govt mandated operations.....
> 
> I question your compassion towards the Kashmiris but not to the kids in the Taliban since you seem to have a bias in one situation over the other....
> 
> The question you asked was..."How can the Indian Army Kill kids"
> The answe is....the same way the Pakistanis, the Americans and the Brits do it....


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## GreenStar

> The weapon aside, my point is law is equal for all....especially when you deal with the laws of the country......the child disobeyed Indian law....pelted the state forces of India....and got shot in defence.....



Wow I'm astounded.....your actually comapring the mindset of a kid to that of a Adult..haha....that is just too funny. Psychology students will rip you to shreds......do you know why, because they will it say it was the states job to educate these people......and how long have you had Kashmir over 60 years....so you have failed in this regard. Oh yiou have a psychology degree then you know that from reports.....a child does not comprend in knowing what he does at a young age.

So instead of booasting about you got this weapon and you got that weapon....first educate your people so that....8 year old don't have to come out on to the street.

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## sam27

So lets assume that Kashmir is granted independence from India and Azad Kashmir will be formed.

Ok but then wt wld be its future??

A land locked country between two nuclear powers with no resources. Don't forget Chinese on the east too.

How would they earn their bread and butter, tourism, no? wt else.
Wt sort of trade and commerce will they have. Remember, u have Afghanistan, again a land locked country and not to mention about its past, present and future. It would be matter of time till it collapses.

Here is the plight of land locked countries in the world. Doest it have a better model to follow?

Landlocked country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> Wow I'm astounded.....your actually comapring the mindset of a kid to that of a Adult..haha....that is just too funny. Psychology students will rip you to shreds......do you know why, because they will it say it was the states job to educate these people......and how long have you had Kashmir over 60 years....so you have failed in this regard. Oh yiou have a psychology degree then you know that from reports.....a child does not comprend in knowing what he does at a young age.
> 
> So instead of booasting about you got this weapon and you got that weapon....first educate your people so that....8 year old don't have to come out on to the street.



You're going into Tangential arguments....none had anything to do with the other....

I have given you a sequential and organzied manner in which I think....

Your tender age seems to have caught up with you.....Now you're brinking on emotions which is clear from your attempts at trying to put me down...

Anyways, its a bloody friday and Im out of here......

But think up some rational arguments and I will respond to them in the am....


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

sam27 said:


> So lets assume that Kashmir is granted independence from India and Azad Kashmir will be formed.
> 
> Ok but then wt wld be its future??
> 
> A land locked country between two nuclear powers with no resources. Don't forget Chinese on the east too.
> 
> How would they earn their bread and butter, tourism, no? wt else.
> Wt sort of trade and commerce will they have. Remember, u have Afghanistan, again a land locked country and not to mention about its past, present and future. It would be matter of time till it collapses.
> 
> Here is the plight of land locked countries in the world. Doest it have a better model to follow?
> 
> Landlocked country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



There are many land-locked, small and non-influential states in the world formed out of similar situations. Did they abandon their hopes for independence based on a hastily done cost-benefit analysis? You can't put a quota on freedom.

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## GreenStar

> How would they earn their bread and butter, tourism, no? wt else.



Just how the UK survives i'm sure Kashmir could survive on its own.


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## gurjot

nothing will happen,india will never afford the integrity threat


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## GreenStar

> Your tender age seems to have caught up with you.....Now you're brinking on emotions which is clear from your attempts at trying to put me down...
> 
> Anyways, its a bloody friday and Im out of here......
> 
> But think up some rational arguments and I will respond to them in the am....
> Peshwa is online now Report Post Reply With Quote



Pashwa i have no reason to put you down.....i'm just putting across my opinion.....anyway enjoy your late night friday.


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## GreenStar

IF the Pakistani army or America or even the UK have killied kids...then I feel its completely wrong......did you know when such reports surface in the UK media...there is a backlash that the politicians face by the people...inquiries are set up in why such cases happened.......now has India done this......I think not.....have you gone to the goverment and complianed....I think not.


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## GreenStar

Futhermore Taliban is not a goverment.....so an extremists group is expected to do something stupid, such as using children. However like I said before India is a proper goverment.......so when you compare India to Taliban, it maks me laugh because your actually comparing your goverment to a bunch of animals.


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> Futhermore Taliban is not a goverment.....so an extremists group is expected to do something stupid, such as using children. However like I said before India is a proper goverment.......so when you compare India to Taliban, it maks me laugh because your actually comparing your goverment to a bunch of animals.



Seriously GreenStar....I shouldnt have to explain this 50 times....Lemme write this as simply as I can...

Children in the Taliban = Children in the mob in Kashmir

Pakistani army operations casulaties resulting in Talibani Childrens death = Indian Police operational casualties resulting in death of children in mob


You show a major bias and hypocricy when you criticize the Indian Police for their actions but not the Pakistani army for a crime against a "child" when both are doing it to maintain peace and order in their respective countries...

Where is the disconnect?
Anyways...you seem stubborn not to understand....
Im going to stop here....


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## GreenStar

> Better Kashmir's understand Independence is not an option for them else they are one who will suffer.



Spoken like a true dictator........and India calls itself a democratic country.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Peshwa said:


> Seriously GreenStar....I shouldnt have to explain this 50 times....Lemme write this as simply as I can...
> 
> *Children in the Taliban* = Children in the mob in Kashmir
> 
> Pakistani army operations casulaties resulting in Talibani Childrens death = Indian Police operational casualties resulting in death of children in mob
> 
> 
> You show a major bias and hypocricy when you criticize the Indian Police for their actions but not the Pakistani army for a crime against a "child" when both are doing it to maintain peace and order in their respective countries...
> 
> Where is the disconnect?
> Anyways...you seem stubborn not to understand....
> Im going to stop here....




Taliban dont have children even if they have they r used as suicide bombers and are mostly 18 and above to 23.
And on the otherside u kill youth armed with STONES OF MASS DESTRUCTION.

Pathetic comparison.


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## GreenStar

> just **** off your mouth .......



Amit12 you shouldn't get too emotionally calm down its a public forum.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

GreenStar said:


> Amit12 you shouldn't get too emotionally calm down its a public forum.



Bad education,lots of hatred and bad family background make one abusive like tht.

Shame but true.
Report his post and move forward.


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## GreenStar

> I dont think so.Such uprisings have occured earlier too and resulted in nothing.



If such uprisings have happened before....then why has your goverment not tried to resolve the issue at hand. The Indian Paramilitary forces have killed 45 Kashmiri's.....as a result it will create another generation of Kashmiri's who would hate India......not a very smart move by the Indian goverement.


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## Peshwa

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Taliban dont have children even if they have they r used as suicide bombers and are mostly 18 and above to 23.
> And on the otherside u kill youth armed with STONES OF MASS DESTRUCTION.
> 
> Pathetic comparison.



Ok...first off...we all know that Taliban recruits children....whether they recruit them for suicide bombing or for armed operations....that is irrelevant....

Lets just assume....that PA shoot a potential child bomber before he takes several lives and destroys a building.....
The PA is justified in doing so since it the aim of this child is to cause mayhem and destruction....

Similarly....the children being recruited by these mobs are violating direct orders (shoot at sight) curfew orders and destroying public property, pelting state forces and burning down shops etc.....
If in the process of anti-riot action, if a child is injured or killed as part of a mob (remember they are not being directly targeted)....the police force is not to be blamed....


In both cases the actions are taken against the underage child to maintain law and order and peace....(In essence to prevent casualties and to protect the population at hand).....

I think you guys are showing major double standards....


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Whats all the fuss about.
Female protestors? Use female riot control police or female paramilitary units.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Peshwa said:


> Ok...first off...we all know that Taliban recruits children....whether they recruit them for suicide bombing or for armed operations....that is irrelevant....
> 
> Lets just assume....that PA shoot a potential child bomber before he takes several lives and destroys a building.....
> The PA is justified in doing so since it the aim of this child is to cause mayhem and destruction....
> 
> Similarly....the children being recruited by these mobs are violating direct orders (shoot at sight) curfew orders and destroying public property, pelting state forces and burning down shops etc.....
> If in the process of anti-riot action, if a child is injured or killed as part of a mob (remember they are not being directly targeted)....the police force is not to be blamed....
> 
> 
> In both cases the actions are taken against the underage child to maintain law and order and peace....(In essence to prevent casualties and to protect the population at hand).....
> 
> I think you guys are showing major double standards....



Irelevant mobs hiring kids
ISI pays 500 rs
ISI sends heroine
etc 
Grow up!


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## GreenStar

> Children in the Taliban = Children in the mob in Kashmir



No it does not....children in Pakistan are force to join the Taliban and be suicide bombers.....however Kashmiri children are not forced, as they bravely come out onto the street with there families to fight for there freedom. Pakistan army did not rape there own people....but India is doing that in Kashmir as a result you have a backlash of hatred towards the Indian goverement ....other wise we would not have these protests.


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## Peshwa

Jana said:


> Bullets will give rise to more strifes. The brutality and ugly face of India can be seen from the fact that India refuses to use the force in own territories against militants But do so in occupied country Kashmir because there they kill Kashmiris not bhartis



The Khalistani movement was just as bloody as the Kashmiri movements and was crushed as will Kashmir....

India has shown an even handed hard approach against any insurgency...

PS: Please refer to all people from India as Indians....Bharati or Bharatiya is a term only Indians can use for other Indians....India is the official name of our country as far as you're concerned...


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## GreenStar

> Pakistani army operations casulaties resulting in Talibani Childrens death = Indian Police operational casualties resulting in death of children in mob



This thread is not about Pakistan so stick to the topic......as you are an Indian its your responsibillity to defend your goverements action..... what Pakistan does wrong or right is another question, that can only be answered in another thread.


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## Peshwa

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> Perhaps the Naxalite situation will bring some appeasements out of Delhi regarding Kashmir. Otherwise it is quite possible that India be en-strangled in a vice grip of insurgency from one end of the country to the other.



Khuda na Kare.... we ever face what Pakistan is facing at the moment......


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## GreenStar

> You show a major bias and hypocricy when you criticize the Indian Police for their actions but not the Pakistani army for a crime against a "child" when both are doing it to maintain peace and order in their respective countries...



Well if you make another thread about Pakistan and its wrongdoings...then I will be happily to discuss it with you in another thread. However this thread is about India.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Asim Aquil said:


> Awesome... Love their spirit. *India will not be able to handle Kashmir any more*.



Deja vu?,1984,1990s


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Peshwa said:


> *The Khalistani movement was just as bloody as the Kashmiri movements and was crushed as will Kashmir....*
> India has shown an even handed hard approach against any insurgency...
> 
> PS: Please refer to all people from India as Indians....Bharati or Bharatiya is a term only Indians can use for other Indians....India is the official name of our country as far as you're concerned...



Khalistan movement was crushed by killing sikhs raping women not to forget bombing Golden temple.
But there is a big difference in 47 sikhs JOINED INDIA while KASHMIRIS DIDNT.
Its been more then 6 decades while u have killed 150000 kashmiris raped countless women and still wats the result?
The youth born after 87 are on the streets killing by indian occupiers r going strong and Kashmir is still under conflict?the biggest hurdle is tht Kashmiris even after 63 years calll themselves KASHMIRIS not indians and india has failed!

And history is witness no freedom struggle of any NATION has gone in vain.

Kashmir will get its Freedom Inshallah.


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## GreenStar

> I think you guys are showing major double standards....



When Pakistan Army does kill children......it is wrong......however what India does is worse in my opinion, simply because Pakistan has a hidden enemy, and it can't distingush bewteen who is the bomber....or where the attack is coming from, so mistakes are made.......But I accept it is wrong. However Indian paramilitary forces are murdering people that are in clear view of them. And tell me what made a policeman shove a baton down a 8 year old throat......could he not subdue him.....if not then his ineffcient to be a policeman.


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> *No it does not....children in Pakistan are force to join the Taliban and be suicide bombers*.....however Kashmiri children are not forced, as they bravely come out onto the street with there families to fight for there freedom. Pakistan army did not rape there own people....but India is doing that in Kashmir as a result you have a backlash of hatred towards the Indian goverement ....other wise we would not have these protests.



What are you....The Taliban recruitment co-ordinator? How do you know the recruitment methods of Taliban vs a Kashmiri mob?

Enough with nonsensical arguments you cant prove....

I have provided you with a very simple comparison and you are unable to digest it....so you resort to unsubstantiated flights of fantasy....


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

Peshwa said:


> Khuda na Kare.... we ever face what Pakistan is facing at the moment......



Peshwa I would ask you to eat some humble pie and look at a map of the Maoist and Naxalite insurgency, and your "internal" Kashmir problem. Then tell me the exact area in square feet of land that is being exploited by insurgency or militancy in both Pakistan and India. The parameters I will keep defined very loosely (as Kashmir is a freedom struggle and the Maoists are right too but that's my opinion). When you have the answer...slap yourself in the face for me.

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## GreenStar

> In both cases the actions are taken against the underage child to maintain law and order and peace....(In essence to prevent casualties and to protect the population at hand).....



Well clearly the actions taken our not protecting the population at hand......otherwise 45 people would not have died. Furthermore If the rioter are so bad....has there been a casualty in the Indian Paramilitary forces.


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## Peshwa

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Irelevant mobs hiring kids
> ISI pays 500 rs
> ISI sends heroine
> etc
> Grow up!



Ill keep doing my part to stop the spread of lies and use of false victimization to malign my country on an international space....

I dont expect rational arguments from you.....

What you believe makes no difference to me or any other Indian....


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Peshwa said:


> What are you....The Taliban recruitment co-ordinator? How do you know the recruitment methods of Taliban vs a Kashmiri mob?
> 
> Enough with nonsensical arguments you cant prove....
> 
> I have provided you with a very simple comparison and you are unable to digest it....so you resort to unsubstantiated flights of fantasy....



Ur arguements are flawed my friend its not a secret tht taliban kidnapped children and brainwashed them. On the other side we see the opposite and we see 47 plus stone throwin youth killed by indian occupiers.

Accept the truth it makes a man bigger.


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> Well clearly the actions taken our not protecting the population at hand......otherwise 45 people would not have died. Furthermore If the rioter are so bad....has there been a casualty in the Indian Paramilitary forces.



The rioters were fired at because they violated a curfew....a curfew set for their own safety and the safety of public property.....

Dont break the law....you wont get hurt...how hard is it to understand?

Yes....Paramilitary forces were injured....


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## GreenStar

> What are you....The Taliban recruitment co-ordinator? How do you know the recruitment methods of Taliban vs a Kashmiri mob?



Pakistan: Taliban kidnapping boys for ?jihad? - World news - South and Central Asia - Pakistan - msnbc.com

Al Jazeera English - CENTRAL/S. ASIA - Pakistan 'rescues' child soldiers

I don't see Kashmiri children kidnapped and forced into protesting against India.....tsk try again next time. And also Pakistani' families have not been subjected to rapes and Killings by the Pakistan armed forces.....unlike what Kashmiri's face.


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## Peshwa

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Ur arguements are flawed my friend its not a secret tht taliban *kidnapped children and brainwashed them*. On the other side we see the opposite and we see 47 plus stone throwin youth killed by indian occupiers.
> 
> Accept the truth it makes a man bigger.



Right....so brainwashing is a trait known only to the Taliban? All Kashmiri children were there based on their own will....the knowledge of which you know because you held a one on one interview with them before they entered the mob....

Cmon...Gimme a break...you're diggin your own grave with these lame arguments.


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## GreenStar

> I dont expect rational arguments from you.....



Who are you to question wheather someone is making a rational argument or not.


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> Pakistan: Taliban kidnapping boys for ?jihad? - World news - South and Central Asia - Pakistan - msnbc.com
> 
> Al Jazeera English - CENTRAL/S. ASIA - Pakistan 'rescues' child soldiers
> 
> I don't see Kashmiri children kidnapped and forced into protesting against India.....tsk try again next time. And also Pakistani' families have not been subjected to rapes and Killings by the Pakistan armed forces.....unlike what Kashmiri's face.



Read my response to Pakistani Nationalist on the same issue...

Anyways....my point stands....these kids broke the law....if they ended up dead...it was due to violation of law, their violent acts and being in the wrong place at the wrong time....


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## GreenStar

> Yes....Paramilitary forces were injured



Oh they were injured.....not killed.....what a brave bunch of Paramilitary soilders you have......that forced them into such a situation that they killled 45 people.........bravo.


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> Who are you to question wheather someone is making a rational argument or not.



You're accusing my country....Im defending my country....

I think you know the drill...

Im here to prevent misinformation from spreading...


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> Oh they were injured.....not killed.....what a brave bunch of Paramilitary soilders you have......that forced them into such a situation that they killled 45 people.........bravo.



Thanks....India is a country full of brave people....

FYI....Theres a billion of us....


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## S_O_C_O_M

Kashmiris holding a Pakistani flag during a protest in Srinagar - Occupied Kashmir

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Peshwa said:


> Right....so brainwashing is a trait known only to the Taliban? All Kashmiri children were there based on their own will....the knowledge of which you know because you held a one on one interview with them before they entered the mob....
> 
> Cmon...Gimme a break...you're diggin your own grave with these lame arguments.



Yeah and the so call mob with no name kidnapped 20 year olds and brain washed thousands of em right under the nose of almost a million soldiers in worlds most militarised area?

Thats conveniant.

By the way the children taliban kidnapped werent above 17,18 even younger then tht and they had made special camps in wasiristan area where there was no military presence... i dont think its the same case in indian occupied Kashmir?


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> This thread is not about Pakistan so stick to the topic......as you are an Indian its your responsibillity to defend your goverements action..... what Pakistan does wrong or right is another question, that can only be answered in another thread.



No...if you have ever studied law....you will notice that a lawyer always refers to previous cases or instances to build his/her case....

In this particular instance....you're accusing my country of a crime which it really isnt....hence Im giving you the relevant instance

Im comparing one situation to the other to show you the similarities in the events and how your hypocrisy and Pakistani origins tend you to align yourself to the Pakistani POV under the guise of neutrality....


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

Peshwa said:


> Thanks....India is a country full of brave people....
> 
> FYI....Theres a billion of us....



If you guys were brave you would not entangle yourselves in a game of Russian Roullette with a small country like Pakistan over a territory you know damn well was supposed to come to us in 1947. India would have reached great heights by now if her manpower was not consumed with containing and suppressing Kashmiri freedom movement. You guys are still running around with a large malnourished and uneducated population with the same problems Pakistan has.


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## GreenStar

> if they ended up dead...it was due to violation of law, their violent acts and being in the wrong place at the wrong time....



Then if they broke the law...shouldn't you have educated those kids first instead of firing the bullet...if they were at the wrong place at the wrong time then its your goveremnts fault in not provided the facillities in preventing this disaster from happening. You can spend billions on defence deals....yet you cannot educate the people of your country......and buy non lethal weapons to subdue rioters. Your Army could have given that boy a second chance.....he is too young to understand anything...yet you killed him.


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## Peshwa

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Yeah and the so call mob with no name kidnapped 20 year olds and brain washed thousands of em right under the nose of almost a million soldiers in worlds most militarised area?
> 
> Thats conveniant.
> 
> By the way the children taliban kidnapped werent above 17,18 even younger then tht and they had made special camps in wasiristan area where there was no military presence... i dont think its the same case in indian occupied Kashmir?



Im no expert on Taliban and Mob recruitment....

Listen...my heart goes out to all brainwashed kids out there.....
as a kid, it was very easy to get me riled up as well....Im sure you were the same....
I hope that more of these kids dont get brainwashed and receive an unfortunate end as some in Pak and India

Nevertheless.....law and order of the land should remain.....
Are Kashmiris in P-O-K allowed to break Pakistani law?...NO

Similarly....these children and adults broke Indian law meant for their own safety.....
Consequences are reflections of ones action.....


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## GreenStar

> Im comparing one situation to the other to show you the similarities in the events and how your hypocrisy and Pakistani origins tend you to align yourself to the Pakistani POV under the guise of neutrality



I do not show any hypocrisy......I told you clearly that this thread is on India...if you want to talk about Pakistan make another thread about its failings and so on......and I would be happy to join. But I can see the frustration building up.....not once have I said in this thread that Kashmir should go to Pakistan, you just can't take the fact that your goverment is wrong and is failing its people terrible in Kashmir.....I can a least admit England has done wrong in the past.....like when it went to Iraq.....but at least I voiced my opinion by protesting in the streets of London......what have you done.


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> Then if they broke the law...shouldn't you have educated those kids first instead of firing the bullet...if they were at the wrong place at the wrong time then its your goveremnts fault in not provided the facillities in preventing this disaster from happening. You can spend billions on defence deals....*yet you cannot educate the people of your country......and buy non lethal weapons to subdue rioters*. Your Army could have given that boy a second chance.....he is too young to understand anything...yet you killed him.



Agreed.....

But Ive mentioned this before.....many deaths happened thank to non-lethal weapons such as rubber and plastic bullets as well as Tear gas shells.....

nevertheless....necessary steps will be taken to mend ways if at all required in the future...

Period


Secondly, education is something that is very easily available.....one cannot forcefeed education....attendance is again their *freedom of choice*


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> I do not show any hypocrisy......I told you clearly that this thread is on India...if you want to talk about Pakistan make another thread about its failings and so on......and I would be happy to join. But I can see the frustration building up.....not once have I said in this thread that Kashmir should go to Pakistan, you just can't take the fact that your goverment is wrong and is failing its people terrible in Kashmir.



I told you why it is necessary to bring up Pakistan...

a) Because it shows a similar handling of situation by Pakistani authorities where Children are being killed under similar circumstances....
b) Law and order is a matter of importance to both India and Pak....and I support Pak action against Taliban as much as Indian action against violators of Indian law.....

And lastly....
If you have ever sat in a jury.....
You will notice that any party that has a vested interest in the case or accused is not considered credible....
Similarly....although you claim to be neutral and British....your Pakistani origin tend to make your opinions skewed to a Pakistani standpoint making you as much a Pakistani as the dude who calls himself Pakistani Nationalist.....

Why dont you just choose a side.....it will make things a lot easier for you....trust me...


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## GreenStar

Pashwa what I find most interesting about you is....you compare the mindset of a child to an adult. So If every child in the world breaks a law......should he be shot for that....even though he is violent.....yet does not have the brain capacity to understand.


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## GreenStar

> your Pakistani origin tend to make your opinions skewed to a Pakistani standpoint making you as much a Pakistani as the dude who calls himself Pakistani Nationalist.....



I have not included Pakistan into the equation, I have not once said Kashmir should be Pakistan's so your point helds no relevance what so ever. And Actually if you read my previous post I have Criticized Pakistan....but as this thread is not about Pakistan...I don't go much into it.....its as simpe as that.


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## Peshwa

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> If you guys were brave you would not entangle yourselves in a game of Russian Roullette with a small country like Pakistan over a territory you know damn well was supposed to come to us in 1947. *India would have reached great heights by now if her manpower was not consumed with containing and suppressing Kashmiri freedom movement. You guys are still running around with a large malnourished and uneducated population with the same problems Pakistan has.*



Unfortunately for you....last I checked....India is doing great....having beared Kashmir and its baggage since its inception....
Yet we grow everyday.....I think we should be fine....

What didnt kill us made us stronger.......

The question is....where is Pakistan having entered the Lions den?....makes you wonder who's temple the gun is on in this game of Russian Roulette....


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> I have not included Pakistan into the equation, I have not once said Kashmir should be Pakistan's so your point helds no relevance what so ever. And Actually if you read my previous post I have Criticized Pakistan....but as this thread is not about Pakistan...I don't go much into it.....its as simpe as that.



Fair enough....My bad....Your entitled to your opinion...


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## GreenStar

My points are not in favour of anyone....I believe in what I see....and in my opinion I believe India is wrong.......nevertheless you don't have to believe it as you are allowed to voice your own perception of the events that our happening.

If you don't want Kashmir to be Independent......then try to solve the issue which is buggering these people.....educate them.....and make them feel that they are apart of India. Because end of the day....there is no point in having a land if people are not happy within that land.

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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> Pashwa what I find most interesting about you is....you compare the mindset of a child to an adult. So If every child in the world breaks a law......should he be shot for that....even though he is violent.....yet does not have the brain capacity to understand.



Thats what surprises me too....

So you find it wrong for me to compare a childs violent actions when he emulates an adults violent actions.....calling it an innocent mistake....

yet

In your previous posts....you mention that these kids are out on the streets under their own will and understanding of the concepts of freedom, jihad....complicated political scenarios etc....

These kids must be lopsided in the brain to understand such complex situations, yet innocent where they dont understand the consequences of actions like Arson, stone throwing and destruction of public property!


Make a stand....either these kids are brainwashed and entered mobs because of that....resulting in breaking the law by default...and ended up being shot

or

They are criminal minds that emulate the actions of adults and were treated accordingly.....

Either way....I stand by my point...

Law is the same for everyone in India.....Anarchy will not be tolerated!


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> My points are not in favour of anyone....I believe in what I see....and in my opinion I believe India is wrong.......nevertheless you don't have to believe it as you are allowed to voice your own perception of the events that our happening.
> 
> If you don't want Kashmir to be Independent......then try to solve the issue which is buggering these people.....educate them.....and make them feel that they are apart of India. Because end of the day....there is no point in having a land if people are not happy within that land.



First statement I agree with....

India HAS to provide Kashmiris with enough economic development, education and infrastructure to make sure that they are able to resist brainwashing and take to Anarchy.....

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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

Peshwa said:


> First statement I agree with....
> 
> India HAS to provide Kashmiris with enough economic development, education and infrastructure to make sure that they are able to resist brainwashing and take to Anarchy.....



And then promptly provide the corruption -free UN regulated referendum that you promised them the past 60+ years.


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## Peshwa

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Khalistan movement was crushed by killing sikhs raping women not to forget bombing Golden temple.
> But there is a big difference in 47 sikhs JOINED INDIA while KASHMIRIS DIDNT.
> Its been more then 6 decades while u have killed 150000 kashmiris raped countless women and still wats the result?
> The youth born after 87 are on the streets killing by indian occupiers r going strong and Kashmir is still under conflict?the biggest hurdle is tht Kashmiris even after 63 years calll themselves KASHMIRIS not indians and india has failed!
> 
> *And history is witness no freedom struggle of any NATION has gone in vain.*
> 
> Kashmir will get its Freedom Inshallah.



Uh....I dont want to get into the whole instrument of accession....but Kashmir as princely state joined us...... 
Nevertheless....how history is taught to you is not my business.....


About the bolded part.....

Please refrain from making such sweeping statements......

I mean there are other freedom movements such as Balochistan, NWFP, Tibet....not to forget the Taliban

Are you suggesting their efforts will fruition?

At least for your sake I hope you get rid of Taliban....this much i can wish for you as a neighbor


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## GreenStar

> In your previous posts....you mention that these kids are out on the streets under their own will and understanding of the concepts of freedom, jihad....complicated political scenarios etc....



From my opinion these kids of the ages under 10 only come out into the street because there family members our actively protesting......fair enough in that case its the parents duty........however you must at least admit that Indian paramilitary troops use too much of an excessive force in trying to disperse rioters. Such as in the case of an 8 year old where a policeman shoved his baton down his throat........come on you have to at least admit that is going too far.


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## GreenStar

> These kids must be lopsided in the brain to understand such complex situations, yet innocent where they dont understand the consequences of actions like Arson, stone throwing and destruction of public property!



Do you know that in England a lot of youths vandalise a lot of property....so should they be killied because they went too far.......or should they be subdued and rehabillated in a program that helps them to become better citizens.


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## Peshwa

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> Peshwa I would ask you to eat some humble pie and look at a map of the Maoist and Naxalite insurgency, and your "internal" Kashmir problem. Then tell me the exact area in square feet of land that is being exploited by insurgency or militancy in both Pakistan and India. The parameters I will keep defined very loosely (as Kashmir is a freedom struggle and the Maoists are right too but that's my opinion). When you have the answer...slap yourself in the face for me.



Dear Friend,

The words in my last post were genuine.....

I truly do hope India doesnt face anything like what Pakistan is going through......
Im well aware of the Kashmiris (or else I wouldnt be talking to all of you nor would PDF exist).... and the Maoists also known as Naxals.....

See the problems for both our countries is the same......we have what you call a *** infestation....

Only difference is.....In India...its still an infestation....yours has become a full blown plague....

Sincerely....Khuda na Kare....our Maoists become like your TTP....

But just because your house is burning doesnt mean you should make yourself happy at the thought of your neighbors sewage being clogged....

You get my point?


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> From my opinion these kids of the ages under 10 only come out into the street because there family members our actively protesting......fair enough in that case its the parents duty........however you must at least admit that Indian paramilitary troops use too much of an excessive force in trying to disperse rioters. Such as in the case of an 8 year old where a policeman shoved his baton down his throat........come on you have to at least admit that is going too far.



Anti-Riot training is a must ....I agree our outdated methods in the subcontinent need to be improved.....

No one is denying that excessive force is not the solution, however its a human mistake....
If the rioters take to the streets under emotions, Police etc which are not as professional organizations as the army do react out in some instances when pressure by mobs.....

Sad but true....


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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> Do you know that in England a lot of youths vandalise a lot of property....so should they be killied because they went too far.......or should they be subdued and rehabillated in a program that helps them to become better citizens.



If arrested on an individual act of vandalism, no....they can be rehabilitated

However I hope you do know that lethal force can be used if the child continues to vandalize unabated, resist arrest and assault a police officer.....yes...even in the UK!...Please check

However this was a mob.....mostly consisting of adults.....these children chose to join them....
If the mobs of adults are being fired at and a death of a child in the mob as a result of collateral damage happens I think thats something that cannot be blamed on the police

Though we never got a chance to arrest to be able to rehabilitate them....


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## Peshwa

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> And then promptly provide the corruption -free UN regulated referendum that you promised them the past 60+ years.



South Asia and "Corruption free" dont go together my friend....

Mr.10% is still your Prez and our corrupt politicians have made India a joke...


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## GreenStar

> If the rioters take to the streets under emotions, Police etc which are not as professional organizations as the army do react out in some instances when pressure by mobs.....



Okay fair enough police is not as professional as the army......however don't you agree that those who use too much excessive force should be punished....at least with suspension.

BBC News - G20 death Pc faces gross misconduct disciplinary action

This officer in England just pushed the victim.....and as a result he is being suspended.......shouldn't the same happen to the Indian officer that shoved a baton down an 8 year old throat.


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## Hulk

@Peshwa you are falling in trap of GreenStar all he showed was a photo of a child been shown the batton. There is no evidence to suggest he was even hit forget about killing. We at times show slap to kids but do not hit them.
On the other hand we do use rubber bullets and it is insane to compare UK to India. GreenStar is always comparing UK to India but when we talk about UK it becomes off topic.

Not everyone can determine which country they will be in, people have to be Practical in what can be done. Before 89 Kashmiri's were happy with India and all this hatred is created by outside force also contributed by our ill management.


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## GreenStar

> @Peshwa you are falling in trap of GreenStar all he showed was a photo of a child been shown the batton



First of all before you say something, have facts to bring it up.....I showed no photo to Pashwa......instead my informtion came from ejaz.....go and look for the post your self it was in this very thread, in which the article implied that an Indian security forcemen shoved a baton down a boys throat.


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## GreenStar

Held Kashmir unrest getting out of Indian hands

Here is the article IndianRabbit are you happy......So I was not lying after all....Now why don't you question your police force...or better more question your goverment.


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## Hulk

@GreenStar thanks for validating my point, whoever showed did showed only Photo, that too that boy was shown the stick. There is noo evidence to suggest anything else happened. So why are we defending as if we killed him. We are discussing imagination here.


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## GreenStar

Disperse crowds in Kashmir but banish the bullet, say experts

There was a video posted by one of the members which show that police was using bullets not rubber bullets.


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## GreenStar

read the article it clealy says that police ruptured an 8 years old lung on the second of August....its not imaginative in which you want to belive in your mind.


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## GreenStar

> GreenStar is always comparing UK to India but when we talk about UK it becomes off topic.



Fair enough I won't compare India to England.


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## GreenStar

India: Implement Juvenile Justice Laws in Kashmir | Human Rights Watch

Another Article where it says India uses live Bullets....what do you say to that Indian Rabbit


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## GreenStar

Curfew imposed in Kashmir as protests spread

Another article where India has used live bullets in the past.


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## Hulk

If they are not using rubber bullet it is wrong. They should try to use harmless methods first, however they also lack tools. The 8 year old should have been picked and retured to Parent with warning. However the blame also goes to his Parnets who wanted to use his child for protest.


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## GreenStar

> If they are not using rubber bullet it is wrong. They should try to use harmless methods first, however they also lack tools.



So why did you say to pashwa that i was lying to him about the Indian forces using live bullets. Futhermore you said to pashwa that Indian forces are not capable of doing such a thing to an 8 year old......well the article goes against your theory.....how do you respond to that.


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## GreenStar

So indian rabbit what should happen to the Indian security forceman who ruptured that 8 year olds lung by shoving a baton down his throat.


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

GreenStar said:


> So indian rabbit what should happen to the Indian security forceman who ruptured that 8 year olds lung by shoving a baton down his throat.



Can I answer this one?


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## Awesome

*Kashmir burns again as India responds to dissent with violence - Asia, World - The Independent*



> *The hospitals are filling up with gunshot victims but angry protesters say the world is blind to their plight. Andrew Buncombe reports from Srinagar*
> 
> From the end of the hospital corridor came frantic shouts, urgent voices that grew ever more desperate.
> 
> A dozen men appeared, gathered around a blood-smeared trolley, rushing its occupant towards the emergency surgery room.* Abdul Rashid, said his friends, had been shot in the head by police who had opened fire on a peaceful gathering. "There was no stone-pelting, nothing," yelled one of the 25-year-old's friends, as medics pulled shut the doors to the surgery room. "There was no curfew ... They fired indiscriminately."*
> 
> Once again, Kashmir is burning. Buildings and barricades have been set alight and its people are enraged. The largest towns are packed with heavily-armed police and the hospital wards are full of young men with gunshot wounds. *Around 50 people have been killed since June, more than 31 in the last week alone*, and dozens more have been wounded. The dead include young men, teenagers and *even a nine-year-old boy, reportedly beaten to death by the security forces after he tried to walk to the local shop*.
> 
> And yet for all their pain, the *people of Kashmir believe they are suffering alone*. They say that unlike places such as Kosovo or East Timor, which both secured independence in recent years, the world is deaf to Kashmir's demands for autonomy. *They blame the US and UN for not doing more and criticise Britain's David Cameron for refusing to raise the issue of Kashmir when he visited India last month, declining to upset his hosts, with whom he was seeking to boost trade and investment deals, even as he bluntly criticised Pakistan for exporting terror. "We were disappointed and so were the people," said Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, a moderate separatist leader who has been placed under house arrest. "Of all the foreign countries, Britain has more moral responsibility for this mess."*
> 
> Kashmir has long been troubled with violence and the previous two summers saw clashes between stone-throwers and the police. *Yet some observers detect that these recent protests are different. More people have taken to the streets  women and the middle classes among them  and protesters have seemingly been more ready to accept the police's bullets as the price for their struggle to break away from the Indian state.* Moreover, the spirit of optimism and hope that existed after a young, idealist politician, Omar Abdullah, became chief minister 18 months ago, has disappeared. Some suggest Kashmir is witnessing an uprising.
> 
> If so, then the frontlines of this uprising are the stone-littered and razor wire-strewn streets of Kashmir's largest towns such as Srinagar and Baramulla. It is here, amid rubbish and waste that has not been cleared for weeks, that crowds of demonstrators have repeatedly ignored curfew orders and the threat of being shot on sight to protest against the authorities. *Some demonstrators have hurled stones at the police as if to incite a response, and cars and government buildings have been set alight. Yet many protests have been peaceful.*
> 
> *The police and paramilitary forces have responded with crushing force*. Untrained and ill-equipped to deal with demonstrators using non-lethal methods, they have used tear gas, rubber bullets and live rounds to dispel the crowds.
> 
> With the crisis worsening and with the central government in Delhi increasingly concerned, Mr Abdullah, this week flew to the capital and asked for additional security personnel to be dispatched. He was granted his wish in the form of 1,500 paramilitaries and 300 special police.
> 
> This Rapid Action Force arrived in Srinagar on Thursday and by yesterday afternoon they were carrying out patrols through several many of the city's neighbourhoods. Kitted out in blue uniforms and armed with automatic weapons, riot shields and helmets, these police sat unsmiling in their vehicles while residents simmered and stared. "*They just want to make us scared, but we are not scared of these forces," declared Abdul Rehman Billoo, a 50-year-old businessman, after a convoy of police trucks clattered through the city's Ikhwan Chowk neighbourhood. "I am involved in the protests. Everybody is involved in the protests, from 50 years to 100 years. There is no age limit."*
> 
> A spokesman for the state government, Taj Mohi-Ud-Din, admitted the police in Jammu and Kashmir, which has been fighting militants since the late 1980s, were trained in counter-insurgency rather than crowd control. He said investment needed to be made in new non-lethal weapons, such as sonic guns and pepper sprays.
> 
> Yet he defended the government's actions, saying the authorities had no alternative but to confront protesters who were damaging property and police were acting with restraint. "*The directions are that they should only fire with rubber bullets, but there can always be exceptions*," he said. "We have said maximum restraint should be shown: firing should be the last resort."
> 
> Yet amid the gloomy corridors and busy wards of Srinagar's Sher-i-Kashmir Institute of Medical Sciences, such words ring hollow. If the streets are the frontline of Kashmir's uprising, then this hospital is one of the places where the human cost of such an undertaking has been most clearly calculated.* Since 30 July, the establishment has received more than 110 patients, injured either by rocks, tear gas or bullets. In the space of little over 60 minutes on Thursday evening, five injured people were brought in, among them Mr Rashid, the man who had been shot in the head by security forces in the town of Pulwama, 25 miles from Srinagar. Last night a medic said he remained in a critical condition.*
> 
> On a ward on the hospital's second floor where his friends and family clustered around,* a 19-year-old man called Fidah Nabi was also in a critical condition. The teenager had been admitted on Tuesday after he too was shot in the head. *Doctors operated on his mouth but had not dared remove the bullet from his brain and instead placed him in a medical coma. His face was swollen like a prize-fighter's and his head was swathed in bandages, with wires and tubes hooked to monitors and drips. He was breathing by means of a ventilator. Mr Nabi's elder brother, Ahmad, a photojournalist, said his brother had been shot after police opened fire on a group of demonstrators. He insisted that his brother was "completely innocent".
> 
> *On Thursday afternoon, Mr Abdullah, the chief minister, had landed by helicopter in the hospital grounds and visited the wards, stopping to meet Mr Nabi's family. One of his aides apparently asked if the state could offer a job to one of the family by means of compensation. Mr Nabi's mother said she responded by grabbing the chief minister by the shirt. Outside, confronted by angry crowds, the chief minister's security guards spirited him away to his waiting helicopter.*
> 
> *<Asim's Input: Holy cow, that is insanely huge! Highly symbolic, Indian government's top stooge, chased out and sent running by Kashmiris! Now we just got to do that with the rest of the Indians.>*
> 
> 
> "*The police are firing at the head and the body, not the legs. This is a against human rights," said one senior doctor, examining a CT scan image of Mr Nabi's brain*. A female colleague, who had worked there for seven years, said the situation was worse than she had ever seen. Children and women were among the victims. "We had another shooting victim come in tonight from Sopore. He is also critical," she added.
> 
> Indeed, a quick tour of the wards found many recent cases of gunshot injuries. Most of the injured were young men but* in one bed lay a woman, Munera Dobi, who had been shot in the back six days ago, also in Pulwama. The woman's husband, Ahmed, said he was unsure if he would be able to work, now he would have to spend time nursing his wife. "We need freedom from India,*" he said.
> 
> The Indian government is in no mind to give Kashmir its freedom. Since 1947, when the formerly independent state's princely ruler, the Hindu Maharaja Hari Singh, controversially chose to join India rather than Pakistan, Delhi has vigorously defended the state against both Pakistan-backed militants and peaceful campaigners. The militancy, which gathered pace in 1989 and has now largely quietened, has claimed the lives of at least 60,000 people and resulted in the creation of one of the most highly militarised places on the planet. "*Everyone knows that Kashmir is paradise on earth, but [the security forces] are making it hell," said a friend of Mr Nabi.*
> 
> Even now, the central government appears either unable or unwilling to try and break the cycle of violence, opting to send in more police and paramilitaries rather than seeking to offer some sort of political gesture, however minimal, that might break the deadlock. When it was reported that UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon had voiced his "concern" about the current violence, officials in Delhi described his comments as "gratuitous". Even yesterday, India's home minister, was seeking to deny the home-grown nature of the protests telling parliament "Pakistan appears to have altered its strategy in influencing events in Jammu and Kashmir. It is possible that they believe that relying upon civilian unrest will pay them better dividends".
> 
> *Without a bold political gesture the loop of violence is unlikely to end. Protests will go on, young people will throw stones, the police will kill people, there will be angry funerals that lead to more protests, more stones will be thrown, the police will shoot and kill more people. Kashmir's agony is set to continue.*
> 
> Decades of conflict
> 
> Why is there a dispute?
> 
> Kashmir has been at the heart of hostilities between India and Pakistan for more than 60 years. Kashmir, a largely Muslim state, joined India when it gained independence from Britain in 1947 on the wish of its Hindu ruler. The decision sparked the first of three wars between India and Pakistan over Kashmir.
> 
> The state was partitioned in 1948 along a ceasefire line, leaving two-thirds under the control of India and one-third under Pakistan. Both sides still claim the whole of the state. In addition to the rival claims of the two countries, a separatist movement began in 1989 against Indian rule. In the Kashmir valley, between 75 per cent and 95 per cent of people support independence from both India and Pakistan, according to a poll by the think-tank Chatham House. The two decades of violence between Indian security forces and Pakistan-backed militants have left more than 60,000 people dead.
> 
> *Who is behind the latest protests?*
> 
> Omar Abdullah, Kashmir's chief minister, has not blamed any group in particular and says *the protests were mainly leaderless*. Human rights groups say India's Armed Forces Special Powers Act  which gives security forces wide powers to shoot, arrest and search in battling a separatist insurgency  further alienates Kashmiris. India yesterday suggested that Pakistan was behind a "new strategy" of inciting civilian unrest.



I'm glad to see a major western media outlet giving the issue its due importance. They should run the coverage on a daily basis of Kashmir and I hope others join in as well. This article leaves no more room for Indian excuses, they are wrong Kashmiris are right. There will be no stopping to Kashmiri protests, it will only grow.

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## brahmastra

> Kashmir has been at the heart of hostilities between India and Pakistan for more than 60 years. *Kashmir, a largely Muslim state, joined India when it gained independence from Britain in 1947 on the wish of its Hindu ruler.* The decision sparked the first of three wars between India and Pakistan over Kashmir.
> 
> The state was partitioned in 1948 along a ceasefire line, leaving two-thirds under the control of India and one-third under Pakistan. Both sides still claim the whole of the state. In addition to the rival claims of the two countries, a separatist movement began in 1989 against Indian rule. In the Kashmir valley, between 75 per cent and 95 per cent of people support independence from both India and Pakistan, according to a poll by the think-tank Chatham House.* The two decades of violence between Indian security forces and Pakistan-backed militants have left more than 60,000 people dead.*



*You forgot to highlight these parts.*



> <Asim's Input: Holy cow, that is insanely huge! Highly symbolic, Indian government's top stooge, chased out and sent running by Kashmiris! Now we just got to do that with the rest of the Indians.>



see the power of democracy. 
btw, there is no '*we*', its some culprit Kashmiri leaders misleading youth and Pakistani.

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## Awesome

brahmastra said:


> *You forgot to highlight these parts.*


If kills by "Pakistan backed militants" were an issue, we'd have them being pelted with stones. We'd have them being chased out of town.

Pakistan backed militants are there to kill Indian backed soldiers.

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## barcelona

The truth of azadi loving miscreent in the valley

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## Awesome

*Kashmiri youth bare and dare the bullets: India : India Today*



> It's a quiet, deserted street in Srinagar when the silence is shattered by the unmistakable sound of an approaching mob clashing with the security forces.
> 
> *As the war cry of "bring on the bullets, we don't fear death! "is echoed on all sides and the protesters come into view, one notices that most of them are shirtless.*
> 
> Yes, that's the latest form of protest in Kashmir. 'Fearless' young men across the Valley have taken to stripping off their shirts and daring security forces to fire at their bare chests.
> 
> On Thursday, for instance, a huge crowd in Srinagar's Habba Kadal area took to the streets after 48- year-old Ghulam Nabi Badyari was allegedly killed in Central Reserve Police Firing (CRPF) firing.
> 
> The protesters removed their shirts and challenged the securitymen to fire at them.
> 
> *"Let them kill us. We will see how many people they can kill,"an angry youngster said.*
> 
> Area residents alleged that the CRPF had shot Badyari on Wednesday without provocation.
> 
> Similar 'stripping' instances were reported from Baramulla,
> 
> Anantnag town and Pampore. "The choice lies with the security forces. If their conscience allows them to fire at our bare chests, let them do so,"said Sameer Ahmad, who was shot in the arm after the police fired at protesters in Pulwama on Thursday.
> 
> *A police officer admitted the "fear of death has left the youth"in the Valley. "These boys have stopped running away when the forces open fire. Instead, they provoke us to fire at their chests,"he said.*
> 
> Psychologists said the dominant emotion in a conflict zone was the fear of death, "which causes intense anxiety or terror". "But sometimes, this fear - or death anxiety-vanishes.
> 
> When this happens, a person abandons restraint and doesn't hesitate to enter a high- risk situation. This can be dangerous,"consultant Dr Zaid Wani said. He added that *this usually happened to people who had lost someone close to a violent or untimely death*.
> 
> A senior psychiatrist at the department of psychiatry in Srinagar's Government Medical College added: "*Terror is conquered only by facing the object of fear repeatedly."He said behavioural therapists did this by making people face their fears in a "graded"manner*.
> 
> *Kashmiris, he said, have had a graded exposure to death and its "cause"-the security forces-over two decades. So they have overcome their fear of dying.*



Funny how Indian media is exploring the fact that the fear of death has gone from Kashmiris, they seem more concerned that "terror" is not working against them.


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## barcelona

Fear of death uhhhhhhhhhh............when army was called in there was no bare chested fearless stone pelter running around the street asa army moved out & CRPF came in their gut incresed manifold...................................people in J&K be thankfull that gov. is takining a very lenient approach towards misguided stone pelter Otherwise i knew a guy named Jugmohan who was the gov. of kashmir.................................


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## storm seeker

*As the war cry of "bring on the bullets, we don't fear death! "is echoed on all sides and the protesters come into view, one notices that most of them are shirtless.

Yes, that's the latest form of protest in Kashmir. 'Fearless' young men across the Valley have taken to stripping off their shirts and daring security forces to fire at their bare chests.*



indian forces cant beat them ...
most of the ppl in protests hold flags of pakistan and raise slogans : hum kia chahte hain AZADI ........
they need a lil more power if w support them they will get their freedom bythemselves


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## whocares

actually, its counterintuitive. the more pakistan steps away, the likelier it is that public opinion will change in india.

or so i think. i dunno.


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## barcelona

For the last 63 years these misguided youth are trying to force there will on billion plus indians but wats the result a big zero a word of advice for them try to integrate with rest of India work for development of Kashmir because it ain't gonna happen as its fight bet. communalism & secularism n indian wouldn't let communalism win........................................


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## Markus

Asim Aquil said:


> *Kashmir burns again as India responds to dissent with violence - Asia, World - The Independent*




So who is indulging in violence first?

Is stone pelting not violence? 

what is CRPF/police supposed to do? - throw the stones back at the protesters !!!


----------



## storm seeker

whocares said:


> actually, its counterintuitive. the more pakistan steps away, the likelier it is that public opinion will change in india.
> 
> or so i think. i dunno.



the more india's away the better it wud be for the whole of south asia


----------



## storm seeker

Markus said:


> So who is indulging in violence first?
> 
> Is stone pelting not violence?
> 
> what is CRPF/police supposed to do? - throw the stones back at the protesters !!!





stone pelting is not violence espacially when the opponents have guns which they use without any fear ...
its funniest thing in the world ... guns vs stones n still india is an innocent virgin .... next time they will throw flowers at u when ull kill any of them


----------



## barcelona

So u r condoning stone throwing & security force arn't firing bullets they are firing tear gas & in extreme cases uses canes in video also nobody is shown spraying bullet at people............................


----------



## Markus

storm seeker said:


> *stone pelting is not violence* espacially when the opponents have guns which they use without any fear ...
> its funniest thing in the world ... guns vs stones n still india is an innocent virgin .... next time they will throw flowers at u when ull kill any of them



Ok, so now u will brand wat comes in violence and wat does not come under violence.

I suggest u take a look at the videos, most of the policemen and CRPF jawans are armed with nothing else other than lathis, few of them are seen with guns for firing tear gas shells and only topline officers actually have firearms which is used only as the last resort.

Are police jawans not human beings? Do u think stones cannot kill a human being? 

If we were to fire bullets at will, all the protesters would have been in graves by now.


----------



## storm seeker

Markus said:


> Ok, so now u will brand wat comes in violence and wat does not come under violence.
> 
> I suggest u take a look at the videos, most of the policemen and CRPF jawans are armed with nothing else other than lathis, few of them are seen with guns for firing tear gas shells and only *topline officers actually have firearms which is used only as the last resort.*
> 
> Are police jawans not human beings? Do u think stones cannot kill a human being?



wat last resort killing local public coz of their demands .. huh 
atleast u cant call them mujahids as they dont have arms but just the stones of kashmir valley with no pakistan's stamp on them .
by the way ur toplines officers last resort cms everyday and 2-3 times every day .....with shields in their hands only rarely they get hit with those stones


----------



## gurjot

deja vu again


----------



## storm seeker

the india is not doing a vast massacre because of bravery of those young men ..... they are just using stones at this time and creating violence for you wat if they got ur guns !!!!


----------



## Markus

storm seeker said:


> wat last resort killing local public coz of their demands .. huh
> atleast u cant call them mujahids as they dont have arms but just the stones of kashmir valley with no pakistan's stamp on them .
> by the way ur toplines officers last resort cms everyday and 2-3 times every day .....with shields in their hands only rarely they get hit with those stones



Its not difficult to quell such protests by bullets, thousands of protesters will lay dead and all protests will disappear, the very fact that police has been asked to observe restraint has increased the morale of the protesters.

Mind you, just a few days back when the army was called in for a flag march, all these protesters had gone hiding in their dens bcoz they know very well that their protests will work only against the lathi yielding constables and not against the soldiers of the army.


----------



## Awesome

Markus said:


> So who is indulging in violence first?
> 
> Is stone pelting not violence?
> 
> what is CRPF/police supposed to do? - throw the stones back at the protesters !!!


The stone pelting is there because India is occupying Kashmir and killing the Kashmiris in PROVEN fake encounters.


----------



## storm seeker

Markus said:


> Its not difficult to quell such protests by bullets, thousands of protesters will lay dead and all protests will disappear, the very fact that police has been asked to observe restraint has increased the morale of the protesters.
> 
> Mind you, just a few days back when the army was called in for a flag march, all these protesters had gone hiding in their dens bcoz they know very well that their protests will work only against the lathi yielding constables and not against the soldiers of the army.



not read yet posting it for u again
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the india is not doing a vast massacre because of bravery of those young men ..... they are just using stones at this time and creating violence for you wat if they got ur guns !!!!


----------



## Awesome

Markus said:


> Its not difficult to quell such protests by bullets, thousands of protesters will lay dead and all protests will disappear, the very fact that police has been asked to observe restraint has increased the morale of the protesters.
> 
> Mind you, just a few days back when the army was called in for a flag march, all these protesters had gone hiding in their dens bcoz they know very well that their protests will work only against the lathi yielding constables and not against the soldiers of the army.


Once you do that, you will have a major uprising and even New Delhi will be pelted with stones.

Moreover you will force Pakistan's hands to step in and protect Kashmiris and hopefully if the rest of the world has any moral conscience they will join us as well.


----------



## Markus

Asim Aquil said:


> The stone pelting is there because India is occupying Kashmir and killing the Kashmiris in PROVEN fake encounters.



All encounters are not fake, some encounters may have been suspicious. Even the Indian army has court martialed the guilty soldiers.


----------



## gurjot

Asim Aquil said:


> Once you do that, you will have a major uprising and even New Delhi will be pelted with stones.
> 
> Moreover you will force Pakistan's hands to step in and protect Kashmiris and hopefully if the rest of the world has any moral conscience they will join us as well.



sorry sir this will not happen.and pakistan should forget to step in.no body joined u ever and no body will as per the past experiences


----------



## Awesome

BJP to observe ''save J-K day'' nationwide on Aug 21, IBN Live News



> New Delhi, Aug 6 (PTI) A day after a BJP delegation met Prime Minister Manmohan Singh demanding restoration of normalcy in J&K, the party today announced it would observe August 21 as 'Save Jammu and Kashmir Day' across the country to protest against the law and order situation there. "Under the UPA government at the Centre and the Omar Abdullah government in the state, the situation in Jammu and Kashmir is one of lawlessness... BJP Core Group in its meeting today decided the party will observe August 21 as Jammu and Kashmir Bachao Diwas across the country," BJP General Secretary Ananth Kumar said. A BJP delegation, comprising senior party leaders L K Advani, Sushma Swaraj, Arun Jaitley and 10 MLAs from the violence-hit state, met the Prime Minister yesterday. Advani is said to have had told to the Prime Minister that his government was "clueless" about what was going on in the state and demanded that law and order be restored and an all-party meeting be convened to discuss the future course of action. Kumar alleged that under Congress-ruled UPA government, the border state had moved from "separate status (under Article 370) to separatism" and said that the BJP condemned this. On August 21, BJP workers will hold public meetings at the party headquarters in state capitals, which will be attended by Central unit leaders. "We want that the Army and security forces in Jammu and Kashmir should not be decreased. Government should take no step which would demoralise the security forces deployed in the state. AFSPA should not be diluted," Kumar demanded. The issue also witnessed much debate in the Rajya Sabha with the main opposition BJP saying that the situation in the Valley is "slipping out of control". It warned the govt against "knee jerk reactions" by giving a political package, claiming any such concession at this stage would further "dilute the sovereignty" of the region.



Huge, the realization that Kashmir is rolling out of India's control is setting in. 

The least they should do is fire Omar Abdullah, give leadership to Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and demilitarize the streets and take them back to the LoC and grant total autonomy. Giving it an Azad Kashmir like status with its own government/PM. Keep the forces on the LoC till an amicable solutions comes in. 

No other way to "Save" it.


----------



## storm seeker

Asim Aquil said:


> Once you do that, you will have a major uprising and even New Delhi will be pelted with stones.
> 
> *Moreover you will force Pakistan's hands to step in and protect Kashmiris and hopefully if the rest of the world has any moral conscience they will join us as well*.



i wanted to say the same thing


----------



## Awesome

Markus said:


> All encounters are not fake, some encounters may have been suspicious. Even the Indian army has court martialed the guilty soldiers.


Court martial is going on forever. The fake encounters still happen because the Indian government gives medals to people who can get them trophy heads of separatists.

For example the killing of a 9 year old boy for going to a local shop - beaten to death - shows the brutality of Indian security forces in Kashmir and their attempts to use terror to pacify Kashmiris.

Your Chief Minister can't show his face in Kashmir he is the most hated man around these days - by extension so is your government that backs him up.


----------



## Hulk

These people who are pleading innosence are the rapist who raped Kashmiri Hindus because of their religion. Kashmir is go no where and none has the guts to take it by force.


----------



## gurjot

*sir u r over estimating each n every thing.army can easily handle this,more politics is involved in this.j&k opposite parties just want to rule,so they dont want the peace ,specially omar abdulla.and cong cant remove him.so the real motive is to call army in.* and also 4 bjp this is necessary to have an political influence.
there is nthing which makes u to think that kashmir will be in the hands of pak.


----------



## Swift

Asim Aquil said:


> Once you do that, you will have a major uprising and even New Delhi will be pelted with stones.
> 
> Moreover you will force *Pakistan's hands to step in* and protect Kashmiris and hopefully if the rest of the world has any moral conscience they will join us as well.



Its nothing but joke. If Pakistan army had the will and ability they wud already have come (for such a just and pious cause they keep shouting)


They can just use these kids for there gain. *If* Kashmir is separated (thats never gonna happen, bet all my pennies) Pakistan will come for the party else they will not go beyond what they are doing now. They have put a stop loss.


----------



## Justin Joseph

Just replace Omar Abdullah with his father, reduce the corruption in valley that sucks the benefits and money send by Delhi, arrest rioters, shoot financiers & facilitators of riots and terrorism.
Start a media and diplomatic campaign about terrorism, pak admin Kashmir, Baluchistan.


----------



## storm seeker

indianrabbit said:


> These people who are pleading innosence are the rapist who raped Kashmiri Hindus because of their religion. Kashmir is go no where and* none has the guts to take it by force*.



kashmiri hindus are being raped by their own soldiers ...
india has taken it by force and is sittin on it by force and that shows only force is the only policy take it back


----------



## Dr sim

yeah u mean take back our army so that u can quietly send urs and take control of kashmir. grow up dude.never gonna happen

I m not saying what Indian army is doing in kashmir is absolutely right but these militants have to realize that _*they cannot get kashmir from india by force*_, the only solution is sit and talk. if an acceptable solution can be reached,good otherwise idk


----------



## Hulk

Well not bad, it will make our government do some thinking and come with some better steps. I support reducing troops to start with, we have too much of them then needed.


----------



## gurjot

i dont know what they talk.india will not compromise on integrity.pak dont accept this.then what can be the soln if india dont accept pak in indian kashmir and even they know that they cant get this by force.


----------



## storm seeker

Swift said:


> They can just use these kids for there gain. *If** Kashmir is separated (thats never gonna happen, bet all my pennies)* Pakistan will come for the party else they will not go beyond what they are doing now. They have put a stop loss.


 save ur pennies coz if kashmir will not get separated it will cost u alot u can use them then ....... and pakistan army has enough guts to get it back ...... by the way we can use our talibans too .... u know they love jihad


----------



## gurjot

storm seeker said:


> kashmiri hindus are being raped by their own soldiers ...
> india has taken it by force and is sittin on it by force and that shows only force is the only policy take it back





> kashmiri hindus are being raped by their own soldiers ...



another ahmed quereshi,not intersted in replying.


> india has taken it by force and is sittin on it by force and that shows only force is the only policy take it back



it was given to us.i dont know what ur generals taught u.


----------



## Swift

storm seeker said:


> save ur pennies coz if kashmir will not get separated it will cost u alot u can use them then ....... and pakistan army has enough guts to get it back ...... by the way we can use our *talibans too .... u know they love jihad*



Thats true. Ask those families who lost there kids in Lahore, Swat and GHQ attacks.


----------



## Awesome

Cruelty let loose in Kashmir unlikely to subdue popular resistance - South Asia Citizens Web



> It needs no expertise to assess how New Delhi is looking at what all has been happening in Kashmir over the past about three months. The arrival of planeloads of &#8216;additional&#8217; contingents of central para-military forces in Srinagar, following chief minister Omar Abdullah&#8217;s recent visit to the union capital, tells it all. Central government&#8217;s approach in this case continues to be influenced by the entrenched militaristic mindset of the intelligence-bureaucratic establishment. There is no sign at all of any worthwhile political input into New Delhi&#8217;s decision making apparatus. Obviously no one over there feels any need for such an approach. Looking from here, it is clear beyond doubt that the central government, now in effective control of the situation in Jammu and Kashmir, is on course to sharpen its coercive tools in dealing with &#8216;obstinate&#8217; people of Kashmir. Various definitions are being trotted out to justify this stance. By now it is obvious beyond question that the present situation is an outright revolt against gross injustices being perpetrated upon the people of this state in general and those in the Valley in particular. This line has always suited the partisan political interests of whosoever happens to be at the helm in Delhi. Kashmir bashing is not only a fair game in the domestic politics of India but it also helps the incumbent beneficiary to extract that extra bit of mileage against rivals in the field. The greater the degree of repression in Kashmir better are its dividends in terms of domestic political calculus. This is also a familiar pattern of centre-state &#8216;relationship&#8217; dating back to 1950s. It has been practised over and over again.
> 
> What, however, is new is the fact that this kind of narrow mindedness is accompanied by colour blindness. Repression is nothing new for the people of Kashmir. But their determination to resist it and fight it with whatever they have is certainly something which others are yet to come to terms with. What one sees happening across every nook and corner of Kashmir Valley today is unprecedented. It is a full blown resistance movement against injustices, against suppression and against tyranny. It is inconceivable that in a similar situation in any other state of India voices of reason would disappear as blatantly as they have in the case of zulm in Kashmir. Daily dance of death and destruction does not seem to be pinching anyone&#8217;s conscience. Innocent children, boys and girls, are being cruelly gunned down. It is shame on the society that calls itself civilised and expects to be recognised as such. The huge casualty toll resulting from resort to naked repression upon unarmed people seeking justice and voicing their basic rights is staggering. Lack of compassion and sensitivity is starkly evident in the authoritarian statements coming out of New Delhi. There is a grudging reference to colossal loss of precious human lives while so much energy is wasted in &#8216;our determination to crush anti-national and anti-social forces&#8217;. Sonia Gandhi&#8217;s statement that the present popular movement in Kashmir is &#8216;instigated by vested interests&#8217;, union home minister P Chidambaram&#8217;s oft repeat version that &#8216;elements from across the border&#8217; have a hand in it and the Congress party&#8217;s position that the &#8216;trouble makers should be dealt with firmly echo the UPA government&#8217;s line of thinking. Despatch of additional para-military forces to the already over-militarised Valley caps the paranoid afflicting the central establishment.
> 
> The disastrous results of this myopic approach are mind boggling. The people of Kashmir who were till recently being hailed as &#8216;patriots&#8217; are now sought to be subjugated at gunpoint. Their grievances are being seen as a great threat to the Indian nation. They were being praised for their courage in defying grave threat to life posed by militancy and making recent elections a success for the benefit of Indian democracy and Indian diplomacy. But suddenly the same lot is now targeted for worst kind of atrocities and excesses. The only change between then and now, which brought about such a radical shift in centre&#8217;s thinking, is that the genuine grievances resulting from gross failure of the system of governance have found the only available outlet. The entire population is being treated as hostile and dealt with as an enemy. Licence to kill with impunity and wanton destruction of private property is being made use of liberally by the growing number of police and para-military forces. How these forces have developed a sixth sense for manufacturing situations for indulging in wanton killing and destruction is no more a secret. Numerous instances of fake encounters have been unearthed but has anyone been held to account? The system is impotent in this case because Kashmir is a fair game for excesses and atrocities so long as it is a profitable bargain in the Indian political market. But, for once, Kashmiris seem to have had enough of it. They have shown their determination to do whatever it takes to resist and fight this tyranny. Human spirit has never been vanquished by these tactics. This awareness seems to be the driving force behind the present phase of popular struggle in Kashmir, irrespective of who is spearheading it.



Gone are the days of Indian restraint, there is full on terror tactics being employed upon the Kashmiris to subdue their protests.


----------



## Awesome

Cruelty let loose in Kashmir unlikely to subdue popular resistance - South Asia Citizens Web



> It needs no expertise to assess how New Delhi is looking at what all has been happening in Kashmir over the past about three months. The arrival of planeloads of additional contingents of central para-military forces in Srinagar, following chief minister Omar Abdullahs recent visit to the union capital, tells it all. Central governments approach in this case continues to be influenced by the entrenched militaristic mindset of the intelligence-bureaucratic establishment. There is no sign at all of any worthwhile political input into New Delhis decision making apparatus. Obviously no one over there feels any need for such an approach. Looking from here, it is clear beyond doubt that the central government, now in effective control of the situation in Jammu and Kashmir, is on course to sharpen its coercive tools in dealing with obstinate people of Kashmir. Various definitions are being trotted out to justify this stance. By now it is obvious beyond question that the present situation is an outright revolt against gross injustices being perpetrated upon the people of this state in general and those in the Valley in particular. This line has always suited the partisan political interests of whosoever happens to be at the helm in Delhi. Kashmir bashing is not only a fair game in the domestic politics of India but it also helps the incumbent beneficiary to extract that extra bit of mileage against rivals in the field. The greater the degree of repression in Kashmir better are its dividends in terms of domestic political calculus. This is also a familiar pattern of centre-state relationship dating back to 1950s. It has been practised over and over again.
> 
> What, however, is new is the fact that this kind of narrow mindedness is accompanied by colour blindness. Repression is nothing new for the people of Kashmir. But their determination to resist it and fight it with whatever they have is certainly something which others are yet to come to terms with. What one sees happening across every nook and corner of Kashmir Valley today is unprecedented. It is a full blown resistance movement against injustices, against suppression and against tyranny. It is inconceivable that in a similar situation in any other state of India voices of reason would disappear as blatantly as they have in the case of zulm in Kashmir. Daily dance of death and destruction does not seem to be pinching anyones conscience. Innocent children, boys and girls, are being cruelly gunned down. It is shame on the society that calls itself civilised and expects to be recognised as such. The huge casualty toll resulting from resort to naked repression upon unarmed people seeking justice and voicing their basic rights is staggering. Lack of compassion and sensitivity is starkly evident in the authoritarian statements coming out of New Delhi. There is a grudging reference to colossal loss of precious human lives while so much energy is wasted in our determination to crush anti-national and anti-social forces. Sonia Gandhis statement that the present popular movement in Kashmir is instigated by vested interests, union home minister P Chidambarams oft repeat version that elements from across the border have a hand in it and the Congress partys position that the trouble makers should be dealt with firmly echo the UPA governments line of thinking. Despatch of additional para-military forces to the already over-militarised Valley caps the paranoid afflicting the central establishment.
> 
> The disastrous results of this myopic approach are mind boggling. The people of Kashmir who were till recently being hailed as patriots are now sought to be subjugated at gunpoint. Their grievances are being seen as a great threat to the Indian nation. They were being praised for their courage in defying grave threat to life posed by militancy and making recent elections a success for the benefit of Indian democracy and Indian diplomacy. But suddenly the same lot is now targeted for worst kind of atrocities and excesses. The only change between then and now, which brought about such a radical shift in centres thinking, is that the genuine grievances resulting from gross failure of the system of governance have found the only available outlet. The entire population is being treated as hostile and dealt with as an enemy. Licence to kill with impunity and wanton destruction of private property is being made use of liberally by the growing number of police and para-military forces. How these forces have developed a sixth sense for manufacturing situations for indulging in wanton killing and destruction is no more a secret. Numerous instances of fake encounters have been unearthed but has anyone been held to account? The system is impotent in this case because Kashmir is a fair game for excesses and atrocities so long as it is a profitable bargain in the Indian political market. But, for once, Kashmiris seem to have had enough of it. They have shown their determination to do whatever it takes to resist and fight this tyranny. Human spirit has never been vanquished by these tactics. This awareness seems to be the driving force behind the present phase of popular struggle in Kashmir, irrespective of who is spearheading it.



Gone are the days of Indian restraint, there is full on terror tactics being employed upon the Kashmiris to subdue their protests.


----------



## storm seeker

gurjot said:


> it was given to us.i dont know what ur generals taught u.



ok if im wrong why is this fuss all about 
our generals dont teach us .... sorry to say unlike india


----------



## Awesome

*Desicritics.org: Let go, India*



> Kashmir is not simmering anymore. It is boiling and spilling over. In the last two months 40 people were killed by Indian security forces. These are young boys of Kashmir, less than 20 years of age, some of them as young as 8 years, and they are challenging the might of Indian armed forces by coming out onto streets violating the curfew orders imposed onto them. Look at the news headlines from THE HINDU in the last 4 days.
> 
> Aug 04: 5 more die as violence continues in Kashmir
> Aug 03: Thousands defy curfew; 7 more civilians killed
> Aug 02: 8 killed as violence escalates in Kashmir Valley
> Aug 01: 2 die in police firing as protesters defy curfew
> 
> *The new generation of Kashmiri Davids takes on the Goliath machinery of India*. These young boys risk their lives to defy all the restrictions imposed on them by Indian security forces. India is at a loss. It does not know how to deal with this situation. There are no AK-47s, there are no hand grenades or rocket launchers so that India can claim these protestors are terrorists. All these young boys have is bunch of easily available stones to take on the sophisticated Indian armed forces.
> 
> *Indians don't know how to respond to this outcry from Kashmir Valley. Indians are still contemplating half measures. They talk of development, better political representation, tackling corruption and so on. These Indians still believe that we can turn this around. They believe that that these young Kashmiris will one day embrace India and love this country as we do.*
> 
> <Asim's input: Damn, that hits it perfectly. Delusions of Kashmiri love for India helps no one. It's more like the saying goes, a drowning man, clutches the straw>
> 
> *There comes a time in the political histories where there is no turning back. Kashmiri youth have crossed that Rubicon. They don't want to turn back. That's why they throw themselves against the Indian armed forced and are ready to die. When freedom is more important to them than their precious lives, we need to concede that we are losing ground and losing our place on their lives.*
> 
> *Its time India concedes that it cannot win back people who don't want to be won back.* This happens with many political movements where the ideas have been infused so strongly amongst the population that there is no need for instigators or leaders anymore. *Siddharth Varadarajan writes in THE HINDU:
> 
> This admission has been difficult for the authorities to make because its implications are unpleasant, perhaps even frightening. In security terms, the absence of a central nervous system means the expanding body of protest cannot be controlled by arresting individual leaders. And in political terms, the spectre of leaderless revolt makes the offer of 'dialogue' or the naming of a 'special envoy' for Kashmir  proposals which might have made sense last year or even last month  seem completely and utterly pointless today.*
> 
> Initially when Indians wanted their freedoms from the British they thought they could get them within the British Empire under the aegis of the Crown. However, over a period of time, it became clear that they needed purna swaraj - complete independence from British. Once that idea got matured and got instilled into the masses, it didn't matter if Gandhi was around or Nehru around. By then it got its own momentum. *We would have got Independence irrespective of the leaders because the idea is now grown so big that it is bigger than any leader.*
> 
> Something similar is happening in Telangana now. Many outsiders ridicule people of Telangana for their struggle and believe that it is a fight sponsored by some political parties. When I was describing one of the agitations to an outsider he asked how much each participant was paid. These Indians refused to believe that people of Telangana come out of their volition to participate in the struggle just because they believe in the idea. They don't need incentives from leaders anymore. The idea has become bigger than the leaders. Siddharth Varadarajan continues.
> 
> *Ever since the current phase of disturbances began, intelligence officials have been wasting precious time convincing the leadership and public of India that the protests are solely or mostly the handiwork of agent provocateurs. So we have been told of the role of the Lashkar-e-Taiba and ISI, of the 'daily wage of Rs. 200'  and even narcotics  being given to stone pelters.*
> 
> In the context of Kashmir, *many Indians refuse to believe that the idea of azadi has now become a universal idea shared by most of Kashmiris living in the valley. These Kashmiris don't need incentives anymore to come out and fight to give up their lives.*
> 
> Siddharth continues:
> 
> A few weeks back, an audio recording of a supposedly incriminating telephone call was leaked to the media along with a misleading transcript suggesting the Geelani faction of the Hurriyat was behind the upsurge.* Now, our TV channels have "learned" from their "sources" that the protests will continue till President Obama's visit in November.*
> 
> *We Indians will do everything in our capacity to discredit a genuine people's aspirations. We will say that the leaders are corrupt, and then say that the people participated in an agitation for the lure of 200 rupees, and that some foreign elements are involved and so on, but never admit that there could be a genuine people's movement going on there*.
> 
> One Indian, E. Krishnan of Palakkad writes in THE HINDU:
> 
> The present unrest and continued defiance of the orders of the administration can only be termed as last ditch attempts from across the border...Only a minuscule section of the people, at the behest of the enemy, is fomenting trouble in Jammu and Kashmir. This has to be contained firmly.
> 
> *So what will it take for India to admit that the majority of the people in Kashmir Valley sympathize with the protestors and that they are as committed as the protestors for their azadi from India? When will we accept the ground realities? Should Indian security forces end up in killing and maiming everyone in the Valley to be able to say, 'now, everyone wants to be with India'?*
> 
> Siddharth Varadarajan writes:
> 
> *Central to this delusional narrative of manipulated protest is the idea that the disturbances are confined to just a few pockets in the valley ...
> 
> ...but one of the reasons the protests spread was popular frustration over the way in which the authenticity of mass sentiment was being dismissed by the government. For the women who came on to the streets with their pots and pans and even stones, or the youths who set up spontaneous blood donation camps to help those injured in the demonstrations, this attempt to strip their protest of both legitimacy and agency was yet another provocation.*
> 
> The current generation of Kashmiris is not fighting their battles with AK-47s but ordinary stones to combat the second biggest army on the planet. One cannot help but compare it with Palestinians kids throwing stones at the oncoming Israeli tanks.
> 
> My dream of India
> 
> *I am a proud Indian. Not because we are the second biggest army in the world or because we possess nuclear weapons, but because I believe that we are creating a nation based on certain lofty ideals to create a harmonious society, an equitable system, and a fair country, where people will have their freedoms and dignity no matter what. I want my India to be mature than what it is right now so that it can deal with practical problems with practical solutions.*
> 
> Time for introspection
> 
> *What has become of us Indians? How did we end up being an imperialist and a colonizer? When did we turn from being a champion of freedoms to suppressor of freedoms? What happened to those lofty goals that we preached when we got our freedoms? In Kashmir, people are dying every day. Our hands are bloody. We are killing innocent people. For what? To satisfy our egos?*
> 
> Can we save ourselves from this ignominy of ruthlessly ruling 10 million people with one-million armies? *How many guns do we need to rule this population? And for what? For the sadistic pleasure that we can beat our enemy in Pakistan? So that we teach a humiliating lesson to the new generation of Kashmiri Muslims for what their fathers did to Kashmiri Hindus? Is this all for holding onto a map?*
> 
> *Either it is Telangana or Kashmir, the problem is the same. Indians don't want to admit that someone is ready to get separated from us. We are not ready to concede that we might have done something wrong, that we have deprived the people of their aspirations, their access to opportunities, curtailed them of their freedoms.*
> 
> 'How can someone accuse us of suppressing someone's freedoms when we are the freest of the nations?' our arrogance asks. Take a look around you. We suppress our own people all the time. Andhras suppress Telanganas. Hindus suppress Muslims. Upper castes suppress Lower castes. Men suppress Women. When given a free rein, the majorities and the privileged suppress minorities and the underprivileged. The strong suppresses the weak.
> 
> *Today we are suppressing peoples' freedoms with guns and tanks, forcing them to stay in their homes depriving them of basic freedoms to go out.* We are so high on our growing economic and military power that we are not ready to concede an inch of our land even if it means killing everyone who aspires for it. Under the name of imposition of peace we have become the very masters we toppled. We have become the British. We have become the dictators and usurpers.
> 
> Let go
> 
> History tells us that no map is static. They are constantly redrawn. Countries emerge, divide, unite and evolve.
> 
> *The solution to washing our sins is 'letting go'. Let go of Kashmiris. Let them decide their fates. We may think that they are not in the right mind when they seek separation. But it is better for them decide their fates than imposing our sense of right it onto them. It should not be our prerogative to decide what is good for them especially when we have to hold a gun against their head to make them say 'yes'.*
> 
> *Let go, India. Become mature.* Some of us expect that from you. We expect India to be so confident that our pride and ego will not be hurt just because we admit 'we could not coerce you into loving us'. We want our India to be preoccupied with keepings its ideals intact rather than its maps. We want India to be a country where people feel they are free not because they are forced into admitting it but because they genuinely feel free to express their opinion however disagreeable it is to the rest of us.
> 
> Can we set aside our political agendas, our egos, our prides and our sanctities aside for a while and ask, how does it change our opinion of India if we actually took a step forward and told these 10 million people that we are ready to let them go. Will that not increase our stature in our own eyes? Will it not give us pride as a nation that we have become mature enough to let someone go after realizing that all this while we were suffocating them and forcing them to live with us?



Game changing admissions coming from Indians - Let go, Let go already.

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## storm seeker

Swift said:


> Thats true. Ask those families who lost there kids in Lahore, Swat and GHQ attacks.



yeah im askin ... telll me wat have they done to india and why have they been killed by ur intelligence ???


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## gurjot

storm seeker said:


> save ur pennies coz if kashmir will not get separated it will cost u alot u can use them then ....... and pakistan army has enough guts to get it back ...... by the way we can use our talibans too .... u know they love jihad





> save ur pennies coz if kashmir will not get separated it will cost u alot u can use them then ....... and pakistan army has enough guts to get it back ...



ya ya tell this to whom who dont know abt ur army strength.



> y the way we can use our talibans too .... u know they love jihad



u ppl frequently say india is behind the taliban.,thats y these jehadis are doing their job in pakistan .and ur army is looking 4 them.


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## gurjot

storm seeker said:


> ok if im wrong why is this fuss all about
> our generals dont teach us .... sorry to say unlike india



in india generals dont rule.


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## Swift

storm seeker said:


> yeah im askin ... telll me wat have they done to india and why have they been killed by ur intelligence ???



Go ask TTP.


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## storm seeker

gurjot said:


> in india generals dont rule.



but they teach i tthink


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## RobbieS

Asim Aquil said:


> Once you do that, you will have a major uprising and even New Delhi will be pelted with stones.
> 
> *Moreover you will force Pakistan's hands to step in and protect Kashmiris and hopefully if the rest of the world has any moral conscience they will join us as wel*l.



Over-estimating Pakistan sitting in Dubai, are we? Pakistan cant try another misadventure. Its already been burnt many times.

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## gurjot

storm seeker said:


> but they teach i tthink



they teach us abt the integrity of india,what they can do.i dont know abt ur real site of teaching.


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## storm seeker

gurjot said:


> ya ya tell this to whom who dont know abt ur army strength.
> 
> 
> 
> u ppl frequently say india is behind the taliban.,thats y these jehadis are doing their job in pakistan .*and ur army is looking 4 them.*



lookin for u ...... many ppl have been caught in disguise of so called talibans that are not even muslims 
ok ... right our army has no guts wat abt *jamatuddawa *
they just want a red signal frm pakistan and then they wud get kashmir back without much of our aid


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## storm seeker

gurjot said:


> they teach us abt the integrity of india,what they can do.i dont know abt ur real site of teaching.



our teaching site is ur attitude on international forums


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## Swift

storm seeker said:


> lookin for u ...... many ppl have been caught in disguise of so called talibans that are not even muslims
> ok ... right our army has no guts wat abt *jamatuddawa *
> they just want a red signal frm pakistan and then they wud get kashmir back without much of our aid




Pakistan ready to hold talks with Taliban: Zardari

I wonder if they r going to talk about invasion of Kashmir.


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## gurjot

storm seeker said:


> lookin for u ...... many ppl have been caught in disguise of so called talibans that are not even muslims
> ok ... right our army has no guts wat abt *jamatuddawa *
> they just want a red signal frm pakistan and then they wud get kashmir back without much of our aid





> lookin for u ...... many ppl have been caught in disguise of so called talibans that are not even muslims
> ok ...


u were saying pak have jehadis,jehadis have no religion



> ok ... right our army has no guts wat abt *jamatuddawa *
> they just want a red signal frm pakistan and then they wud get kashmir back without much of our aid



our army have green signal 4 them.sorry green signal 4 hell.many came and they sent to hell by army.so keep ur out fits.


*m very happy that atleast one of the pak member accepted that they have jehadis to xport to india.anotherwise they were saying that jud runs hospitals.*


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## storm seeker

Swift said:


> Pakistan ready to hold talks with Taliban: Zardari
> 
> I wonder if they r going to talk about invasion of Kashmir.



may be .... they just need siratemustaqeem


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## Swift

storm seeker said:


> may be .... they just need siratemustaqeem



Good luck. Hope you r an exceptional soul in Pakistan to be thinking the way you do.


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## storm seeker

RobbieS said:


> *Over-estimating Pakistan sitting in Dubai, are we? Pakistan cant try another misadventure. Its already been burnt many times*.


so is india ........ this time we have got the technique to burn without being burnt ... once and for all

---------- Post added at 12:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 PM ----------




Swift said:


> Good luck. Hope you r an exceptional soul in Pakistan to be thinking the way you do.



nope all of us think that way


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## gurjot

storm seeker said:


> so is india ........ this time we have got the technique to burn without being burnt ... once and for all
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> nope all of us think that way



,i think pakistan has suffered a lot frm terror or u can say pak is burnt a lot due to terror.where was ur technique dude.


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## Awesome

Indian Authorities Struggle to Control Widening Kashmir Protests | Asia | English



> In Indian Kashmir, authorities are struggling to control spiraling street protests, which have led to the death of more than 45 people in the past six weeks. It is the worst violence in two years.
> 
> *Undeterred by strict curfews, thousands of residents have been pouring into the streets across the Kashmir valley in recent weeks, chanting anti-India slogans.*
> 
> *The marches erupted to protest the death of a young man who was hit by a tear gas shell in June.* Efforts to quell the demonstrations have only fed the violence, as clashes between heavily armed security personnel and young people hurling stones have led to more deaths, and more protests.
> 
> *The protesters target police stations and security bunkers. They have burned police vehicles, attacked rail stations and other government buildings.
> 
> The violence has jolted Indian authorities, who were optimistic that the relative calm in Kashmir in recent years signaled the end of a separatist insurgency that wracked the region in the 1990s. *
> 
> *Political analysts say there is a difference between then and now. While the violence in the 1990s was stoked by Pakistan-based Islamic militant groups, this time the protests are largely spontaneous local gatherings. *
> 
> Youthful rage
> 
> Amitabh Mattoo is professor of disarmament studies at New Delhi's Jawaharlal Nehru University. He says what is visible on the streets of Kashmir is the rage of young people who grew up during the conflict, and who do not see enough opportunity.
> 
> "You have a generation of young people who have already witnessed 20 years of conflict, violence, often been sequestered in their homes, faced harassment, not seeing any light at the end of the tunnel. All this is buried in a sense of Kashmiri victimhood, a sense of Kashmiri deprivation, a sense that justice has not been done to them either politically or economically," says Mattoo.
> 
> The escalating protests have prompted the government to pour thousands more troops into a region that is already heavily militarized.
> 
> *Shoot at sight orders have been issued to control the volatile situation. *
> 
> But the presence of more security forces only stokes the anger.
> 
> Jammu and Kashmir's chief minister, *Omar Abdullah, took power 18 months ago pledging to reduce the size of the military in the state. He says more security forces had to be deployed to restore law and order. *
> 
> "Unfortunately, as much as one wishes not to have to resort to the use of force, when people take it upon themselves to take the law into their own hands, there are consequences to such decisions, and often times those consequences are serious and tragic," says Abdullah.
> 
> Those tragic consequences have led to the deaths of more than a score of young people, many of them the result of gun fire by the security forces. Hundreds of security personnel have been wounded.
> 
> Lack of training
> 
> Amitabh Mattoo says the situation has deteriorated because the security forces are not trained to handle civilian protests.
> 
> "Unfortunately the police in Jammu and Kashmir, including paramilitary forces, have really for last 20 years been forces which have countered an insurgency, countered a militancy," Mattoo adds. "And they do not know quite how to deal with protests that are by almost unarmed civilians or armed with just rocks and stones. *Certainly in the 21st century you have to ensure that people who are not armed with guns are not killed because of their protests*."
> 
> Both the state and federal government have appealed to the demonstrators to end the protests and break the cycle of violence. A prominent separatist leader in the state, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, has also called on people to hold only peaceful protests.
> 
> Indian leaders promise to address the grievances of the demonstrators once the violence ends. *In parliament this week, Home Minister P. Chidambaram said the government will initiate a political process in the state of Jammu and Kashmir.
> *
> "We recognize that the issues concerning Jammu and Kashmir are issues concerning our own people, and have to be addressed through the political process and through a dialogue with all sections of people in Jammu and Kashmir," said Home Minister P. Chidambaram.
> 
> Skepticism remains
> 
> But in Kashmir, there is skepticism about those promises. Kashmir has long demanded more autonomy, more development and the withdrawal of security forces from the region  but has seen little progress on those requests for decades.
> 
> The Himalayan region is divided between India and Pakistan, and lies at the heart of a bitter dispute between them.



Another media outlet joins in! India has lost control, it will lose in any forceful effort to put down this protest. India will have to give in to some demands of Kashmiris, sooner or later.


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## storm seeker

gurjot said:


> ,i think pakistan has suffered a lot frm terror or u can say pak is burnt a lot due to terror.where was ur technique dude.



we are getting off the track 
btw who is terrorized ... nobody get terrorized of these attacks now ....have u seen the bomb blast in data darbar have u seen how many ppl were standing there after attack and the very next day thousands of ppl performed their prayers there.
pakistan's public is not like lil afraid mice ....when there is no terror there is no burning ... u got one attack in mumbai and u started crying ... huh... now tell me whose terrorized ...........


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## owcc

All you have been dreaming of Kashmir leaving India for the past 6 decades.I f yu had showed the same enthusiasm for developing your nation you would have probably been par with any of the asian giants.Why do you worry so much for a territory which yu people even never had in the first place.Its not not as if you were there first and then someone stole it.You never had it


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## storm seeker

owcc said:


> All you have been dreaming of Kashmir leaving India for the past 6 decades.I f yu had showed the same enthusiasm for developing your nation you would have probably been par with any of the asian giants.Why do you worry so much for a territory which yu people even never had in the first place.Its not not as if you were there first and then someone stole it.You never had it



sir 62 years are nothing in the history of a nation .... we can fight for it for next 10 centuries ..... himmate mardan maddad e khuda .... till the victory

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## owcc

storm seeker said:


> sir 62 years are nothing in the history of a nation .... we can fight for it for next 10 centuries ..... himmate mardan maddad e khuda .... till the victory



Thats really great but ask the same thing to your fellow citizens who are already facing enough problems already .I am pretty sure 10 centuries of fight with a nation who has far more resources at hand than yours isnt something you or your fellow citizens will wish for.Why not forget all and become a partner in the rise of asia.Just take the recent example of flood in your nation ,if you had good relationship with India,Indian helis would have been able to prvide relief easily and would have saved a lot of lives


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## gurjot

storm seeker said:


> we are getting off the track
> btw who is terrorized ... nobody get terrorized of these attacks now ....have u seen the bomb blast in data darbar have u seen how many ppl were standing there after attack and the very next day thousands of ppl performed their prayers there.
> pakistan's public is not like lil afraid mice ....when there is no terror there is no burning ... u got one attack in mumbai and u started crying ... huh... now tell me whose terrorized ...........



we stood united after mumbai attacks.






here in mubai thousands walked together.






and whole nation salutes them


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## gurjot

storm seeker said:


> sir 62 years are nothing in the history of a nation .... we can fight for it for next 10 centuries ..... himmate mardan maddad e khuda .... till the victory



and we will continue to protect it till the last day of the earth.


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## Justin Joseph

For last 62 years many live in zaid hamid type dreams and illusions that India will break or kashmir will break away from India but they always fall flat.

We have survived when we don't have money and resources and world don't listen to us. We will rock with our secularism, democracy, US $2 trillion economy.


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## gurjot

Justin Joseph said:


> For last 62 years many live in zaid hamid type dreams and illusions that India will break or kashmir will break away from India but they always fall flat.
> 
> We have survived when we don't have money and resources and world don't listen to us. We will rock with our secularism, democracy, US $2 trillion economy.



zion hamid was saying "india is at the verge of breaking into parts.".i m afraid of this guy.


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## whocares

@asim : your ability to consistently get a kick out of this issue amazes me


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## Awesome

whocares said:


> @asim : your ability to consistently get a kick out of this issue amazes me


Your spineless attempts to deflect away from the topic at hand does not amuse me. You can discuss me in your own free time, don't derail the thread.


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## EjazR

*49 deaths later, Omar reaches out*

After 55 days of street protests and police action which left 49 dead and more than a thousand injured, Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah finally reached out to the people, visiting the Sher-e-Kashmir Institute of Medical Sciences (SKIMS) in Srinagar today to check on the injured and face, for the first time, public anger.

Abdullah didnt, however, risk driving to the hospital and flew there in a helicopter instead. The government kept the visit under wraps to avoid trouble.

Srinagar city was relatively quiet today, a day after separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani urged people not to indulge in stone-throwing or acts of arson.

Geelanis call had ensured that even the funeral of a protester in the volatile Chanapora-Natipora neighbourhood Thursday passed off peacefully despite the presence of a massive crowd. The Geelani appeal opened a little window for the government but it seemed slow in seizing this opportunity. 

In Pulwama, where protesters were addressed today by Geelani via telephone, police and CRPF personnel opened fire, killing 23-year-old Shabir Ahmad Malik and leaving six others injured. The firing took place after people refused to stop marching towards Zadoora village where Mohammad Yaqoob Bhat had been killed in firing last Sunday.

In Srinagar, scrap dealer Ghulam Nabi Badyari (48), critically injured in police firing late last night in the Ganpatyar locality, succumbed to injuries this morning.

This afternoon, Omar Abdullah flew to SKIMS to visit the ICU where several critically injured are being treated. Since no one is allowed inside the ICU, we sit in the corridor outside. In the afternoon, we were told to move away from the ICU ward. They told us that the

Continued on page 2

49 deaths later, Omar finally reaches out

Director (of SKIMS) was going to visit the ward, said Firdous Ahmad, an attendant. But suddenly somebody said Omar Abdullah was here. People immediately assembled outside the ward and started shouting slogans.

Abdullah, who was accompanied by Minister of State for Health Javed Ahmad Dar, Director SKIMS Dr Abdul Hameed Zargar and senior officials, also took stock of the availability of medicines and life-saving drugs. SKIMS Medical Superintendent Dr Amin Tabish told The Indian Express that one hundred injured had been admitted to the hospital. Of these, 65 had been operated upon.

*When Abdullah stepped out of the ward, he was heckled by women who blamed him for their plight. Eyewitnesses said that when the attendants confronted him in the corridor, police officers pushed them aside but Abdullah asked them to let the families talk to him. Despite being shouted at, he didnt utter a word in response.*

I told him you are responsible for all this. You have given orders to kill our children. I told him there is blood on your hands. I asked him why was he here to rub salt on our wounds, said Zahida Nabi whose son Fida Nabi, injured in police firing in the HMT neighbourhood, is battling for life. I told him you have permitted them (police) to open fire on our children... I said if you are CM, why dont you take the side of the people? Why are you silent? she said.


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## whocares

naah, no intention of derailing the thread and no idea how my remark could've even done that. neway.


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## Awesome

The admissions by an Indian writer on Desi Critics is huge. Indians will have to let go of Kashmir. Sooner or later the Kashmiris will beat out their freedom from them.


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## barcelona

I think this situation is going to blow over jus like the amarnath land row but i wish gud luck to all those member who time & again raise this issue in the hope of conquring kashmir even tho they are not able to control there lawless pashtunland but its none of my biznes to talk abt. that issue
I hope these incidents can only keep the moral of these members high as there is nothing gud happening in there own country....................................


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## Awesome

The same media outlets also have some very different account of what happened at the hospital

As two more die in Valley, Omar Abdullah gets angry mouthful - Hindustan Times



> According to sources at the Sher-i-Kashmir Institute of Medical Sciences, a woman &#8212; whose relative is critical with a bullet injury in the head &#8212; screamed at Abdullah and tried to catch him by the collar. The CM's guards prevented her from getting too close.
> 
> "The chief minister was immediately escorted out of the hospital by his guards, who formed a human shield around him," a hospital official said.
> 
> There was, however, no confirmation of the 'assault'.
> 
> Locals alleged Bidyari, who died in hospital, was not protesting.
> 
> "He had just stepped out to see if curfew had been relaxed," said a neighbour.
> 
> "He was hit by a CRPF bullet."




---------- Post added at 12:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 PM ----------

Omar Abdullah booed during visit to hospital - India - DNA

Omar Abdullah&#8217;s attempt to provide a healing touch to victims of the ongoing violence in Kashmir went horribly wrong on Thursday when an angry mob jeered him and raised pro-freedom slogans at Sher-e-Kashmir Institute of Medical Sciences (SKIMS) where the chief minister had gone to meet the injured.

Omar flew to SKIMS to avoid a road journey through the sensitive old city areas of Srinagar which have been at the centre of the unrest.


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## Awesome

Omar Abdullah is the front target for all the issues in Kashmir. He tried to offer a job to the woman's family in compensation, she got pissed and grabbed him by the collar!

Omar Abdullah ran for cover afterwards - a very symbolic sight of Indian government running away from Kashmiris.


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## storm seeker

gurjot said:


> and we will continue to protect it till the last day of the earth.



u wont have to wait that much long .... just as long till sm muhammad bin qwasim or mehmood ghaznavi invades .


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## storm seeker

owcc said:


> Thats really great but ask the same thing to your fellow citizens who are already facing enough problems already .I am pretty sure 10 centuries of fight with a nation who has far more resources at hand than yours isnt something you or your fellow citizens will wish for.Why not forget all and become a partner in the rise of asia.Just take the recent example of flood in your nation ,if you had good relationship with India,Indian helis would have been able to prvide relief easily and would have saved a lot of lives



wars are not fought with resources ... and we are not like americans but we match better wth afghans .. they fought without resources .
there is flood in ur country too .. tell ur hellis to save ppl .. i think 59 dead in 1 day ... huh


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## EjazR

Well the The hindu (the first post) and Indian Express are far from objective than DNA or Hindutan Times.

If you look at the reports,he went to ICU wards, he visited the patients talked to teh doctors and also took stock of medical supplies.

Ofcourse you will have angry people shouting atthim because of the current situation. But ifhe had just ran away from the hospital entrance he would not have been able to do all those visits. Teh photos shows that he was present in the ICU ward itself.


HE should have done that right at the beginning though instead of wating for 3-4weeks. That I would agreewith. He wasted alot of time in directly reaching out to the people.


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## storm seeker

barcelona said:


> I think this situation is going to blow over jus like the amarnath land row but i wish gud luck to all those member who time & again raise this issue in the hope of conquring kashmir even tho they are not able to control there lawless pashtunland but its none of my biznes to talk abt. that issue
> I hope these incidents can only keep the moral of these members high as there is nothing gud happening in there own country....................................




NOT INTERESTED IN THE THREAD better keep ur nose out of it ,.... this thread is for pakistani members .


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## Bang Galore

Asim Aquil said:


> *Indians will have to let go of Kashmir. Sooner or later the Kashmiris will beat out their freedom from them*.



Yeah man; we heard you the first time. Repeating that in every post is not going to make it any more likely.


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## Awesome

For Pakistanis I will always urge to rise above to the moral high ground. There is no need to make fun of Indian soldiers - especially their fallen soldiers. We want the enemy combatants dead, but definitely not abused.

In fact respect amongst combatants is a centuries old concept, it still has merit today.


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## storm seeker

the person was not dead .......it was just an answer to wat they say 'our army doesnt have guts ...


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## Iggy

Lolz Asim..why are you opening threads for each and every thing in Kashmir??nothing gonna change mate..Kashmir will remain with us..People now got tired of stone throwing,now resting

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## Awesome

*After 56 days of unrest & 50 deaths, 'azadi' at fever pitch - India - The Times of India*



> SRINAGAR: There's only word on everyone's lips these days, 'azadi'. It doesnt matter what it means. In Kashmirs surcharged atmosphere, azadi has become a talisman.
> 
> They cling to it when a child dies from a police bullet. They brandish it when security forces scatter funeral processions. They shout it to proclaim their Kashmiriyat. Fifty deaths and 56 days of disruptions, bandhs, violence and curfew have only increased the fervour. It cuts across age groups and classes. Hum sab saath hain! Doctors, nurses and patients at Srinagars Shri Maharaj Hari Singh Hospital raised both arms in the air as they chanted in unison.
> 
> The separatist sentiment, never far from the surface, has surged with a vengeance, sweeping aside mainstream politicians as well as moderate leaders of the Hurriyat. "All of them have sold out to India. We dont care for any political party. We only care for those willing to fight for Kashmirs freedom," asserted Ghulam Mohd Shah, a state employee. His voice quivered with rage as he pointed to his son Gulab who was rushed with a bullet wound to the Sher-e-Kashmir Institute of Medical Sciences from Pulwama, where security forces fired on a procession.
> 
> Even as peace seemed to settle in the Valley following Hurriyat hawk Syed Ali Shah Geelanis appeal for non-violence, anger continued to boil, and spread. A 28-year-old doctor, who did not want to be identified, said shes been deeply affected by the deaths at her hospital, especially of children. I had a lot of faith in Omar Abdullah but I am deeply disappointed. I too want azadi. I want security forces to go. I want to be able to move around freely, she said. Political parties, from Abdullahs NC to Mehbooba Muftis PDP, to the Congress, and the doves among the separatists like Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, have been the biggest casualty of the trouble. They stand marginalized as corrupt people only interested in power. It has left a dangerous vacuum that Geelani has filled with ease. At least he speaks for us. He talks of azadi, said Madassar, who runs a showroom in Chanapora.
> 
> Tanvir Ahmed Khan, a Srinagar-based dealer in consumer goods, said the depth of anger is mindboggling even for him.
> 
> The older generation felt betrayed because India went back on its promise of plebiscite. But the younger generation is ready to fight for their rights. They are not scared, he explained.
> 
> Whats worrying is that the azadi sentiment has acquired a tinge of communal ghettoisation. No-one was killed when the people of Jammu held demonstrations. The police used water cannons and rubber bullets on them. Kashmiris are being killed because we are Muslims, exclaimed Tanvir Amin, a businessman in Srinagar.



Saving Jammu and Kashmir may not really work out if the demands for Azadi start resounding stronger and stronger with Indian ministers getting a beating from Kashmiris.


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## EjazR

*Curfew continues in Kashmir, Omar takes stock of availability of essential items*

As curfew continues in Srinagar and all other towns of the Kashmir Valley for the eight consecutive day, Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah has taken stock of availability of essential items in the Kashmir valley.

He chaired a high-level meeting here on Thursday and instructed that the Public Distribution System be activated to mitigate the difficulties of people in the prevailing situation.

He directed the ministry concerned to make them available to the people in curfew-bound areas.

*Abdullah also took stock of the availability of medicines in various hospitals and directed the Health Ministry to airlift medicines, if required.*

*He also asked the Health Department to ensure food for the attendants of the patients.*

*He instructed that the telephone numbers of the control room be provided to the Chief Minister's Grievance Cell for coordinating timely redressal of grievances.*

*The consumers will also have the option to register their grievances at the Chief Minister's Cell.*

*Meanwhile, Government also released 45 lakh rupees to various hospitals for arranging free and timely treatment of persons who have sustained injuries.*

However, there are no reports of any untoward incident since last evening.

People are advised to remain indoors and ensure that children do not fall prey to the designs of anti-social and miscreant elements.

In the past seven days, over 28 people have been killed in clashes between security forces and protesters, taking the death toll over the past eight weeks to 45.


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## Awesome

EjazR said:


> Well the The hindu (the first post) and Indian Express are far from objective than DNA or Hindutan Times.
> 
> If you look at the reports,he went to ICU wards, he visited the patients talked to teh doctors and also took stock of medical supplies.
> 
> Ofcourse you will have angry people shouting atthim because of the current situation. But ifhe had just ran away from the hospital entrance he would not have been able to do all those visits. Teh photos shows that he was present in the ICU ward itself.
> 
> 
> HE should have done that right at the beginning though instead of wating for 3-4weeks. That I would agreewith. He wasted alot of time in directly reaching out to the people.


Remove him and give J&K an Azad Kashmir like governance system with its own parliament and everything and Indian military can go patrol the LoC to make sure Pakistan does not come in.

That will be a win-win and perhaps will also see participation from separatists in the elections for the new Azad government.


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## karan.1970

^ Lack of experiance. Farooq Abdullah has now stepped in.. Let Asim ji have his moments of glee for now.. .

On the other hand, expensive (lives wise) but much needed wake up call for GOI. Expect to see a bunch of progressive steps in next few weeks. Big announcement expected on tuesday


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## Undivided Kashmir

Only way to do is to Scrap Article 370 of the Indian Constitution and allow all the people from other parts of India to move in and settle down.

We only have to see the results of similar thing happening in Tibet by the Han Chinese.

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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> Remove him and give J&K an Azad Kashmir like governance system with its own parliament and everything and Indian military can go patrol the LoC to make sure Pakistan does not come in.
> 
> That will be a win-win and perhaps will also see participation from separatists in the elections for the new Azad government.



They have their state assembly.. Thats the parliament body a state has..

Agree on the army piece, but I dont think Army is deployed in the urban centers at this time.


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## Undivided Kashmir

Those Idiots and Institutions responsible for this mess have to pay for this, I dont see why tax payers money has be to used.

*Make Hurriyat conferece pay* for all the costs of destruction and for the relief services.


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## gurjot

storm seeker said:


> u wont have to wait that much long .... just as long till sm muhammad bin qwasim or mehmood ghaznavi invades .



whi is going to perform this job.


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## Undivided Kashmir

Why are the Idiots taking children into demonstrations and when they know very well that those demonstrations can get out of hand with all the voilcence by the disruptive forces Hurriyat and their paid henchmen.


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## gurjot

who implemented this f******** Article 370


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## gurjot

childrens r used as an weapon.they know it will increase anger


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## Awesome

karan.1970 said:


> They have their state assembly.. Thats the parliament body a state has..
> 
> Agree on the army piece, but I dont think Army is deployed in the urban centers at this time.


There is heavy armed presence of various groups, from police to CRPF to Rapid Action force and even special forces - army is deployed as well. Remember the parade army did as a show of force 2 weeks back?

A bullet is a bullet and a gun is a gun - Curfew hasn't been relented for 8 straight days now. Omar sending in trucks for 'relief' over the 'strain' he himself has imposed upon the Kashmiris is no big thing. After 8 days people would be running low on supplies.

Shoot to kill orders are on, can you imagine the mental toll this takes upon a person living in Kashmir. Kashmiris are modern - non tribal, highly urbanized and education and economic prosperity seeking people, and secularized Muslims. This act of defiance comes after years and years of conflict and abuse at the hands of the security forces its not in their culture or tradition.

Omar Abdullah has to go - and the tie up with the Indian union has to be loose with its own governance, with a connected defence/economic system. The escalation of protests would end and so would the need to deploy heavy forces on Kashmir's streets.


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## gurjot

Asim Aquil said:


> There is heavy armed presence of various groups, from police to CRPF to Rapid Action force and even special forces - army is deployed as well. Remember the parade army did as a show of force 2 weeks back?
> 
> A bullet is a bullet and a gun is a gun - Curfew hasn't been relented for 8 straight days now. Omar sending in trucks for 'relief' over the 'strain' he himself has imposed upon the Kashmiris is no big thing. After 8 days people would be running low on supplies.
> 
> Shoot to kill orders are on, can you imagine the mental toll this takes upon a person living in Kashmir. Kashmiris are modern - non tribal, highly urbanized and education and economic prosperity seeking people, and secularized Muslims. This act of defiance comes after years and years of conflict and abuse at the hands of the security forces its not in their culture or tradition.
> 
> Omar Abdullah has to go - and the tie up with the Indian union has to be loose with its own governance, with a connected defence/economic system. The escalation of protests would end and so would the need to deploy heavy forces on Kashmir's streets.



this is wat govt needs to do is to deploy more army there and remove the 370


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## Awesome

karan.1970 said:


> ^ Lack of experiance. Farooq Abdullah has now stepped in.. Let Asim ji have his moments of glee for now.. .
> 
> On the other hand, expensive (lives wise) but much needed wake up call for GOI. Expect to see a bunch of progressive steps in next few weeks. Big announcement expected on tuesday


This is not true:

Farooq Abdullah says speculation about his return as J&K CM baseless | NetIndian | India News | Latest News from India | Breaking News from India | Latest Headlines


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## Awesome

gurjot said:


> who implemented this f******** Article 370


It will be the final nail in the coffin if you make it look like you're going to send in other Indians to take over Kashmir from Kashmiris now. The demand for Azadi would then be unstoppable.

Don't make the same mistake that Nehru did with Pakistan. Grant them the total autonomy they seek, now or lose everything later.


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## Undivided Kashmir

Asim Aquil said:


> It will be the final nail in the coffin if you make it look like you're going to send in other Indians to take over Kashmir from Kashmiris now. The demand for Azadi would then be unstoppable.
> 
> Don't make the same mistake that Nehru did with Pakistan. Grant them the total autonomy they seek, now or lose everything later.



Thanks we will keep that in mind.

Crush the terrorists and their supporters whatever it takes.


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## Bang Galore

Asim Aquil said:


> Omar Abdullah is the front target for all the issues in Kashmir. He tried to offer a job to the woman's family in compensation, she got pissed and grabbed him by the collar!
> 
> Omar Abdullah ran for cover afterwards - a very symbolic sight of Indian government running away from Kashmiris.



Well if that version is true; what does it suggest? That she faced no consequences for the supposed action hardly shows the image you want to portray - a police state intent on violence. Can someone do the same to your army officials & hope to survive? 



Asim Aquil said:


> Remove him and give J&K an Azad Kashmir like governance system with its own parliament and everything and Indian military can go patrol the LoC to make sure Pakistan does not come in.
> 
> That will be a win-win and perhaps will also see participation from separatists in the elections for the new Azad government.



Silly idea. It's not that easy to remove elected representatives from their positions. There will, in due course be another election and the people can decide. If he & his government are removed now, then it's going to be direct rule from New Delhi by the Home ministry & nothing else.


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## Awesome

Undivided Kashmir said:


> Why are the Idiots taking children into demonstrations and when they know very well that those demonstrations can get out of hand with all the voilcence by the disruptive forces Hurriyat and their paid henchmen.


A nine year old boy was killed who simply was going to the local shop for some supplies. He wasn't even shot, he was beaten to death by Indian security forces pounding on him.

Mothers of India ought do not need to cry for Kashmir they need to discipline their children, the Indian soldiers.


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## EjazR

Asim Aquil said:


> Remove him and give J&K an Azad Kashmir like governance system with its own parliament and everything and Indian military can go patrol the LoC to make sure Pakistan does not come in.
> 
> That will be a win-win and perhaps will also see participation from separatists in the elections for the new Azad government.



Its not about removing him. He has been there only for a littel more than a year. Being CM of Jammu-Kashmir is probably one of the most difficult jobs in south asia if not the world.

You have the entrenched security establishment and the ever present militants. Just last year in December Fazl Haq Qureshi, Mirwaiz Umar's rep was involved in quiet dialouge with Delhi was shot in the head. Its not like the militants have gone away you know.

Then you have the sepratists who take on everysingle issue to give it an anti-India bent. From the HR violations to provision of govt. jobs to bollywood movies and music or even attempts like Free all India tours to young schoolchildren. And its no secret that they havevastamountfunding coming through foreignchannels. 
On the other side you have a very vituperative opposition in the form of PDP whichdoes not leaveany stone untuned to pull of the pants of the Omar Abdulla govt.

Then you have the regional aspirations of Jammu and Ladakh which includes about 50&#37; of the states population including many muslim majority districts which are mainly pro-Indian but complain that they don't get as much as developmental aid just because they are pro-Indian while the valley gets much more.

There is already a functioning assembly in J&K much before Pakistani Kashmir side and there has been no bifurcation or trifurcation of the J&K state like Gilgit Baltistan in Pakistan.

An in 2008, sepratists did take part in elections, mostly as independants. Some won, some lost. That is why there was a 68% vote turnout. Sajjad Lone even fought in the National elections for MP seat.

But demilitariastion and justice is a must. HR violations, particularly those that are clearcut like the Pathribal case or the recent Machil fake encouter case should be punished.

The main reason for the anger is the HR violations and thathas to be addressed before anything else IMO.

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## gurjot

Asim Aquil said:


> It will be the final nail in the coffin if you make it look like you're going to send in other Indians to take over Kashmir from Kashmiris now. The demand for Azadi would then be unstoppable.
> 
> Don't make the same mistake that Nehru did with Pakistan. Grant them the total autonomy they seek, now or lose everything later.



it does not mean that whole india will be flooded there.it is just to clear the understanding.

india will never give any freedom or such like things,territory cant be compromised.whole india is linked with this.


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## Awesome

Bang Galore said:


> Well if that version is true; what does it suggest? That she faced no consequences for the supposed action hardly shows the image you want to portray - a police state intent on violence. Can someone do the same to your army officials & hope to survive?



There are two things. 

1. India is trying to impose its will 
2. But failing to do so

That is significant!


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## Iggy

@Asim..not going offtopic..but why dont you merge all the threads you opened about Kashmir..its hard for us to follow all the ones..please do it if you can..Opening as many threads wont change anything in Kashmir anyway


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## Valiant_Soul

Asim Aquil said:


> The admissions by an Indian writer on Desi Critics is huge. Indians will have to let go of Kashmir. Sooner or later the Kashmiris will beat out their freedom from them.



Either it is your naivety or your inherited hatred for India that is stopping you to see the real picture.

The article is straight from the heart and I am getting all emotional, but unfortunately, that is not how the world is supposed to function. Nations do not compromise their territorial integrity based on the whims of a tiny minority - and if that happens, then the days of that nation being united and integrated are numbered. 

You fail to see that it is not just about Kashmir - it will send ripple effects and may lead cascading events of more possible fragmentation of the country - and hence it is about the whole of India, its unity and integrity. And, therefore, your hope that India will let these handful of people compromise its pillars of existence is in vain. 

And it is not just not just India, no country at any cost would allow that to happen. Would Pakistan let go of Balochistan? Would China let go of Tibet? Think twice. 

Oh, but I forgot, why would you care for India. So please continue your forum war, while India deals with the situation on ground.


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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> This is not true:
> 
> Farooq Abdullah says speculation about his return as J&K CM baseless | NetIndian | India News | Latest News from India | Breaking News from India | Latest Headlines



2 weeks old link. Things have changed significantly after that.. They wont make the change publically, but FA is already running the show now..


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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> There is heavy armed presence of various groups, from police to CRPF to Rapid Action force and even special forces - army is deployed as well. Remember the parade army did as a show of force 2 weeks back?


All are LEOs. Not army.. Army simply did a flag march.. No Operations..



Asim Aquil said:


> A bullet is a bullet and a gun is a gun - Curfew hasn't been relented for 8 straight days now. Omar sending in trucks for 'relief' over the 'strain' he himself has imposed upon the Kashmiris is no big thing. After 8 days people would be running low on supplies.


Not true
Curfew relaxed in parts of Srinagar - India - The Times of India




Asim Aquil said:


> Shoot to kill orders are on, can you imagine the mental toll this takes upon a person living in Kashmir. Kashmiris are modern - non tribal, highly urbanized and education and economic prosperity seeking people, and secularized Muslims. This act of defiance comes after years and years of conflict and abuse at the hands of the security forces its not in their culture or tradition.


Shoot to kill orders are in effect in Karachi too which is the biggest urban center of Pakistan. It has nothing to do with the culture or urban/rural nature of the place but the prevailing situation on ground. 



Asim Aquil said:


> Omar Abdullah has to go - and the tie up with the Indian union has to be loose with its own governance, with a connected defence/economic system. The escalation of protests would end and so would the need to deploy heavy forces on Kashmir's streets.



Thats for GOI to decide. More of a political decision. If FA is able to pull off a quick calming effect, OA will retain position, else I see the governer rule coming up. Unless something drastic happens, I think we are already over the hump...

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## GreenStar

Yes please True Pakisan Zindabad


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## Hulk

That news is fake half of the stories are cooked up.


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## GreenStar

> and we will continue to protect it till the last day of the earth



Well your not doing a very good job in protecting your citizens are you......what was it 45 people dead.


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## GreenStar

> That news is fake half of the stories are cooked up.




Wow is that the best you can come up with.......how dissappointing....you just can't take the fact that you were made to look like a fool......when you told Pashwa that I was lying to him....furthermore you said to Pashwa that India does not use live bullets.....I gave you three articles.......now how are you going to respond to that.


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## sensenreason

GreenStar said:


> Okay its's the paramilitary force that is killing the civilians......but its still Indian...so your goverment should still be held accountable for its actions.



Yes, Indians will hold them accountable and not the British Govt or people...your govt seems pretty upset with Pakistan...so where do your loyalties lie?...do you support Cameron's honest speak or would you have him tell lies..


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## Hulk

You were lying all along you told him the boy is dead. Also you never answred my question on barbasism by these Kashmiri's on Hindu brothers.


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> Well your not doing a very good job in protecting your citizens are you......what was it 45 people dead.



Some time lethal force is used to curb the violent mob..other wise it will be dangerous to other citizens too..it is applied in every part of the world..Just see in Karachi too shoot at sight has been ordered..its usual when mob turns violent..


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## GreenStar

> Yes, Indians will hold them accountable and not the British Govt or people




Well that's good to hear....but when will you hold them accountable.....its's all good saying that you will, but when is the key question.


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## GreenStar

> your govt seems pretty upset with Pakistan



I personally didn't vote for the Tories....as I'm a Labour fan.....however what my goverment thinks of Pakistan is another matter.....as this thread is not about my goverement and its foreign policies.


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## Hulk

When a country is formed of size lile India, it is expected that some people want to be seperate. The same happened is USA which was formed after huge war.


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## sunny001

storm seeker said:


> u wont have to wait that much long .... just as long till sm muhammad bin qwasim or mehmood ghaznavi invades .



Man, you guys are real delusional. Who the **** mehmood ghaznavi is to invade us. Is he some mythical person from your 3500 year old quran? If so, spare us of your delusional beliefs.


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## DGMO

The fire and rage doesn't seem to be going out anytime soon. If anything, it will only simmer and I doubt it will be totally extinguished.

A question to fellow Indian members: Is there a realisation (or acceptance) on your part that the majority of *The Valley* doesn't want to be part of India? I'm not talking about Kashmir, as I understand this rage isn't concentrated in Leh, Jammu or Ladakh.

Would like your views on this. Thanks.


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## GreenStar

Having a ruptured lung does not mean the kid is dead.....where did I specifically say that he was killed by your Security forces.....my point to Pashwa was that your Security forces our using excessive force. 

You can't answer so you are going around in a circle....first you said that I showed Pashwa a photo...which was a lie conducted by you.......Second I gave you the link.........now you are telling me its fake........then you bodly said that your security forces were not using live bulllets.....I gave you three articles.....you it was you who was lying to your fellow countrymen and It was you who had an imagination not me.


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## GreenStar

> Also you never answred my question on barbasism by these Kashmiri's on Hindu brothers.



Not once have I involved religion into this discussion.....I am not even saying that Kashmir should be Independent just because it has a Muslim Majority....however from your response you seem to dislike Muslim's.....and you seem to regard them different. However why don't you show me some of the articles.......and if it is true in what you say....then it is wrong.......but you must accept that your goveremnt has done wrong in how it has conducted its operation in dispersing the crowd.


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## hellofriends

why Pakistani think that by publishing fake indian govt failure news and videos they can disturbed Indian govt. but reality is that Indians are not caring about fake news. some Pakistani are more interested in indian problem rather than caring about own big problems.


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## Iggy

Terrorism and Exodus (1985-1995)

In late 1989 and early 1990, when the Kashmiri Muslims raised the banner of rebellion against Indian Government, the Kashmiri Pandit minority was targeted by Islamic fundamentalists and socially persecuted by a significant proportion of the Kashmiri Muslim population. This forced almost all of the remaining Kashmiri Pandit families to suddenly leave the Valley. These families intended to return to the Valley after restoration of normalcy. However, the socio-political situation in Kashmir continues to be volatile, with the displaced Kashmiri Pandits beginning to lose their cultural identity. The US Department of State reports that, according to the Indian National Human Rights Commission, the Kashmiri Pandit population in Jammu and Kashmir dropped from 15 percent in 1941 to 1 percent as of 2001.[10][11]. Kashmiri Pandit refugees living in camps near the North Indian cities of Jammu and Delhi have come up with the demand for a Panun Kashmir, a territory where they can reside without fear of persecution or human rights violations. A MORI survey found that within the Kashmir Valley, 92% respondents opposed the state of Kashmir being divided on the basis of religion or ethnicity.[12] Due to the violent Islamic insurgency, 209 [13] Kashmiri Pandits have been murdered, 400,000 displaced. fundamentalists.[14] This was condemned and labeled as ethnic cleansing in a 2006 resolution passed by the United States Congress.[15] In 2009 Oregon Legislative Assembly passed a resolution to recognize 14 September 2007, as Martyrs Day to acknowledge ethnic cleansing and campaigns of terror inflicted on non-Muslim minorities of Jammu and Kashmir by terrorists seeking to establish an Islamic state.[16] According to the CIA about 300,000 Kashmir Hindus (Pandits) from the Indian Administered Kashmir Valley are residing in the Jammu region of the state of Jammu and Kashmir (particularly in the refugee camps at Udhampur and Jammu), and another 100,000in Delhi, in refugee camps established by the Indian Government and the UN.[17] The ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits continues, with anti-Hindu threats made to them by terrorists as recently as 2009[18]

Currently, the National Capital Region of Delhi, including Delhi, Faridabad, Ghaziabad, NOIDA, and Gurgaon, is the settlement with the largest population of Kashmiri Pandits in the world.

Kashmiri Pandit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> Not once have I involved religion into this discussion.....I am not even saying that Kashmir should be Independent just because it has a Muslim Majority....however from your response you seem to dislike Muslim's.....and you seem to regard them different. However why don't you show me some of the articles.......and if it is true in what you say....then it is wrong.......but you must accept that your goveremnt has done wrong in how it has conducted its operation in dispersing the crowd.



Greenstar almost every discussion in this forum is about Kashmiris muslims only..there people dont care about what happened to Hindus there..they are the one suffered mostly there and almost all are thrown away from the home state and living like aliens in other states..and as for government has done wrong..i agree that goverment should have given CRPF and local police better crowd management training but you see we are not as devaloped as European and US forces..our police tried to disperse a violent protest and things get out of hand..and when mobs turned violent and destroying public property they have to use lethal force to disperse the mob..as I said this is used in different part of the world..

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## GreenStar

Okay fair enough the article...says that Kashmir's have targeted Hindues.......but that does not excuse....what your goverment has done during the protests conducted in the past week.


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## bc040400065

*Kashmir protests: Indian police in Kashmir don't get a break*
*Kashmir protest crackdowns have brought youths to the streets to pelt Indian security forces with rocks. The police, meanwhile, are working 17-hour shifts as they grudgingly grapple with 'a political problem.'*


By Ben Arnoldy, Staff writer / August 5, 2010 

Srinagar, India 
Behind "Aidl" and his comrades in the Central Reserve Police Forces (CRPF) stands a home with broken windows and pockmarked plaster from hundreds of pelted stones. He points to it when asked if he's had many stones thrown at him while patrolling this increasingly restive downtown capital of Indian-controlled Kashmir in the disputed Himalayan region.


*In the past few months, thousands of boys and young men have taken to pelting Indian security forces and police with rocks, with increasing regularity. They are protesting the stifling of peaceful protest, and decades of Indian control over the region. Meanwhile, Indian police say they can't get a break.*

*Syed Ali Shah Gilani, a Kashmiri separatist figure with some clout among the teenage rock throwers, appealed Wednesday for protests to remain peaceful.*

"You won't find one of us who hasn't been hit by a stone and injured in some way," says Aidl, who was afraid to give his name.

*To break up crowds, the paramilitary CRPF wield bamboo sticks, stones, tear gas, and rifles. The police have only a handful of tasers. **"At times there are thousands of people coming after just a few of us. So then we have to use [batons] and stones to push them back," he says.*

And sometimes, security forces say, they have no choice but to use deadly force. But casualties have been disproportionate; Since late Wednesday, two more people died of gunfire from paramilitary forces, bringing the total number of civilians killed since June 11 to 48, compared with no police deaths. According to the Associated Press, one of the civilians shot Wednesday had been shouting at security forces, the other was killed by a stray bullet while at home.

*The security crackdown has exhausted police and paramilitaries. Most days this summer CRPF men and police serve 16- to 17-hour shifts.*

*The long hours may help explain the excessive police responses to protests and provocative stone throwing at homes and modifications of "Go India Go" street graffiti to "Good, India, Good."*

*Police leaders, none of whom could go on record, express frustration that they are being relied on solely to solve what they say is ultimately a political problem. "Our job is only to keep dealing with the situation but there is no solution coming," says local cop Aijaz Ahmed.*

Kashmir protests: Indian police in Kashmir don't get a break - CSMonitor.com


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> Okay fair enough the article...says that Kashmir's have targeted Hindues.......but that does not excuse....what your goverment has done during the protests conducted in the past week.



Replied you above


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## Gin ka Pakistan

India is coping Israel in every department


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## Iggy

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> India is coping Israel in every department



You are making those innocent people copying Palestinians to show that they are the victims..its like catching the fish with out wetting the hand..some sympathy you guys got for them


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## GreenStar

> Greenstar almost every discussion in this forum is about Kashmiris muslims only..there people dont care about what happened to Hindus there



Ah but I never said that Kashmir should be Independent because it has more Muslims......what other people say is there own opinion. Like I said that is very unfournate and sad in what has happened to these Kashmiri Hindues...but essentially this is still your goveremnts fault......they have clearly not tackled the core issues that have caused this tension in the first place.....if you spent Billions on educating the people of Kashmir to live in harmony with one another...instead of buying expensive weapons.....maybe this would not have happpened...clearly the goverement has failed in this regard. But like I said I feel sorry for these Hindues.


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## gurjot

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> India is coping Israel in every department



if this is true,then india would have influenced the u.s.


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## karan.1970

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> India is coping Israel in every department



You mean copying?? 

Whatever it takes to protect one's nation.. Make whatever you want of it..


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## GreenStar

> own away from the home state and living like aliens in other states..and as for government has done wrong..i agree that goverment should have given CRPF and local police better crowd management training but you see we are not as devaloped as European and US forces.



India is spend 30 billion dollars a year on defence....Am I correct.....if so buying Water gun tanks and non lethal weapons, should be easily purchased. Your goveremnt has failed in this regard.....because you know seiko that Kashmir has been a problem for a long time.....so isn't wise to spend money on something that is needed urgently to prevents deaths of civilians.....because essentialy your Paramilitary force is creating another generation of hatred towards India, andcycle continues.


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> Ah but I never said that Kashmir should be Independent because it has more Muslims......what other people say is there own opinion. Like I said that is very unfournate and sad in what has happened to these Kashmiri Hindues...but essentially this is still your goveremnts fault......they have clearly not tackled the core issues that have caused this tension in the first place.....if you spent Billions on educating the people of Kashmir to live in harmony with one another...instead of buying expensive weapons.....maybe this would not have happpened...clearly the goverement has failed in this regard. But like I said I feel sorry for these Hindues.



Education is handled by state government..Central government has nothing to do with it other than supporting state governments..and also if you notice the situation in South India muslim community dont give much importance to education ,things have been changing now but most of the people do not want to go to school or colleges for education and didnt allow their children especially girls to education..these people can be easily brainwashed in the name of religion and create anarchy in a state..Government cant force each and every one to educate themselves ...


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> India is spend 30 billion dollars a year on defence....Am I correct.....if so buying Water gun tanks and non lethal weapons, should be easily purchased. Your goveremnt has failed in this regard.....because you know seiko that Kashmir has been a problem for a long time.....so isn't wise to spend money on something that is needed urgently to prevents deaths of civilians.....because essentialy your Paramilitary force is creating another generation of hatred towards India, andcycle continues.



Dude you are not getting it..Education and Law and order is handled by State government..there is nothing Central government can do about it rather than assisting them..defence is done Central government and mind you its not only Kashmir where we have to deploy our forces and Pakistan is not the only enemy we got..

Yes we have to do something about it and as said by many members here discard article 370 and bring investments in to the valley..with most people getting jobs and look foreward for a better future this will end..as they said Empty mind is devlis workshop..let them engaged in some thing and they will have a better future..


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## GreenStar

> Government cant force each and every one to educate themselves ...



Yes it can...they are just too lazy......in some western countries...parents who don't send there children to school get a heavy fine.


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## GreenStar

The state goverment and the central goverment combined......equals Indian Goverment....am I correct......if so it is still there duty to buy none lethal weapons to disperse crowd control.


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> *Yes it can...they are just too lazy.*.....in some western countries...parents who don't send there children to school get a heavy fine.



dude dont compare rich western countries to then newly independent two third of the people who are below poverty line India..Government had other priorities like eradication of poverty and diseases in our country and being a new nation we had our set of problems..but now lot has changed ..right for education bill has been passed by the government and education is free..Here is a thread opened by me and some of the posts posted by boo is enlightening ..

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/52637-right-education-has-come-force.html

and also mate there is no comparison between European countries and India..we have different culture and back grounds..France and India are secular nations but we dont ban women from wearing Burqua..its not possible here..hope you get my point


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## GreenStar

But if you know that Kashmir is a volitile area.....then isn't more wise to spend more money there. I understand that India is not as fully developed as other western countries......but still the opportunity cost arises.....which is if you neglect this area, then you will have more problems.


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## Ganga

GreenStar said:


> But if you know that Kashmir is a volitile area.....then isn't more wise to spend more money there.



and u think we spend less??


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> The state goverment and the central goverment combined......equals Indian Goverment....am I correct......if so it is still there duty to buy none lethal weapons to disperse crowd control.




Its up to the state government which weapons they need to use for crowd control..and it was a government elected by Kashmiri people..Central government has limited role in law and order situation in states


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## GreenStar

> Its up to the state government which weapons they need to use for crowd control.



Oh that means that the state goverment has failed then in this regard.....it does not matter whether the people voted fot that state goverment...it still failed in its duty to protect citizen......45 people are dead...all because of bad management by the State goverment in not alllocating funds to non lethal weapons.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> The state goverment and the central goverment combined......equals Indian Goverment....am I correct......if so it is still there duty to buy none lethal weapons to disperse crowd control.



Yes. So is eradication of poverty, provision of clean water to 100% population and so on. So may be this expense (for non lethal law enforcement for 100% of India) is lower in the list of priorities. Is it misplaced in the list, may be/may be not.. but thats not the topic here. 

A specific event can not be a reason to trash a list of priorities. Revisit, sure.. Discard, definitely not. 

Take an example.. Due to floods in Pakistan, there is a huge crisis and Pakistan is having to go and ask for monetary assistence from a lot of countries. Now, the fact Pakistan needs aid to counter this calamity can not be used to question the money Pakistan is spending in buying weapons or its investment in Afghanistan due to regional power games. 

So, lets not beat around the bush.. Could the casualties be reduced from what we saw to quell the violence.. Yes.. But then there is a way to improve anything.. For now, this will have to do...

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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> Oh that means that the state goverment has failed then in this regard.....it does not matter whether the people voted fot that state goverment...it still failed in its duty to protect citizen......45 people are dead...all because of bad management by the State goverment in not alllocating funds to non lethal weapons.



Yup.. And people will vote it out in the next elections.. Thats how democracy works.. Not by giving away parts of the country...


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## GreenStar

> A specific event can not be a reason to trash a list of priorities. Revisit, sure.. Discard, definitely not.



But Karan this has happened in the past....protest in Kashmir is not exactly a new thing is it....so when will Kashmir which is a major issue will get any priorities.


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## GreenStar

> Take an example.. Due to floods in Pakistan, there is a huge crisis and Pakistan is having to go and ask for monetary assistence from a lot of countries.



Pakistan does not have an option..simply because it has no money....however the same can't be said about India........from my prospective it is a huge failure....at least the floods in Pakistan is a one off disaster.....there hasnn't been worse floods seen since the last 100 years.....so it was unexpected.....however India has known the on going problem in Kashmir since 1989....yet it has continued to fail in this regard.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> But Karan this has happened in the past....protest in Kashmir is not exactly a new thing is it....so when will Kashmir which is a major issue will get any priorities.



Look at it this way.. In absence of this action, which everyone is going crazy over, the violence could have escalated resulting in targeting of specific community as well like it happened in the past resulting in much wider loss of life and property. The fact that Kashmir has a high priority is the reason why there are Law enforcement forces on standby 24x7 that were able to prevent the same. 

Because its Kashmir, there is so much talk about it due to political angles, but anywhere in south asia, riots spanning 50 days and only resulting in 40 or so deaths is unbelievably mild. A good example is Karachi where 90 people have died in 4 days of rioting.

Sad but true...


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## barcelona

I accept that there are large no. of people in valley who would like to be independent rather than be with india but my point is nation building excersise is a long & ardiouse process & with such a huge diversity there are bound to be problems in a big country like india & with time & prosperity these type of movement will die down probably it ill take 100 to 200 years nice example of nation building is of germany which was not even there in ancient time...........................


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## EjazR

*www.outlookindia.com | 'Important To Win Hearts And Minds'*

_Extracts from the home minister's reply to the discussion in Rajya Sabha_

The problems of Jammu and Kashmir are problems that have remained with us since 1947. It was not my intention when making a Statement to lay out a road map to the solution of those problems. It could not have been done in a statement that describes the current situation nor is it possible to deal with those problems while replying to clarifications on that statement. The statement was intended to capture the current situation, how we intend to deal with the current situation and, therefore, I should be very happy to answer questions that pertain to the current situation.

*It is often forgotten that beginning 2004 and up to the middle of this year, except the year 2008, Jammu and Kashmir has not witnessed serious civilian strikes. I underline the word &#8216;civilian&#8217;. We have had incidents involving terrorists and infiltrators on the border, maybe even inside the border but, if you leave that out, the state has been largely peaceful and there has been no civilian unrest since 2004. *

2008 was an exception when the Amarnath Yatra triggered a controversy and lives were lost. In fact, a hundred lives were lost that year. But, otherwise, I think, it is well to remember that very, very few lives were lost in those years. *In 2005, it was actually one, in 2006 it was six, in 2007 it was two and in 2009 it was only seven.* I think, in large measure or at least in substantial measure the fact that there was no civilian unrest in Jammu and Kashmir is owing to the policy pursued by the UPA-I government and the policy that was pursued by UPA-II beginning May 2009. The Amarnath strife was a separate issue and I don&#8217;t wish to go into that now.

*I do not think raising issues like 'abrogate articles like 370' offer a political solution to the Jammu and Kashmir issue or 'send more paramilitary forces, send in the Army'. I think, this is not the policy of the UPA government and with great respect to the Leader of the Opposition, some of these demands were articulated in a memorandum submitted by the principal opposition party to the Prime Minister yesterday. We beg to differ. This is not the approach that we should adopt for Jammu and Kashmir. Jammu and Kashmir acceded to India under very unique circumstances.* That is why on my first visit to Jammu and Kashmir after I took over as home minister I said:



> &#8216;This is a unique problem. There is a unique history to the problem and therefore, we must put our heads together to find a solution, a unique solution to this unique problem&#8217;.



That is what I said.

Be that as it may, I think, it is important to win hearts and minds in Jammu and Kashmir. *The fact that there is no civilian strife for five out of six years gave me a lot of encouragement when I embarked upon the path of quiet dialogue. The quiet dialogue did yield result. Between May and December 4, 2009, there was hardly any civilian strife. I am not attributing it entirely to the quiet dialogue. But, certainly, the quiet dialogue contributed to the fact that there was, largely, peace and order in Jammu and Kashmir. The dialogue was interrupted on December 4, as I said in my statement, when Fazalul- Haq Quereshi, a moderate leader who favoured dialogue, was very seriously injured.* Since then, I confess, we have not been able to resume the quiet dialogue. But, it is my intention to do everything possible to resume the quiet dialogue.

It is true that Pakistan appears to have altered its strategy in influencing events in Jammu and Kashmir. I do not think there is any let up, as such, in infiltration nor is there any let up in sending militants into the valley. But, as the hon. Leader of the Opposition pointed out, our capacity to deal with infiltration and militancy is, certainly, much higher today than what it was a few years ago. Our intelligence is, certainly, better equipped. And, therefore, we have been able to foil these designs. It is possible that there is an altered strategy. It is possible that they believe that relying upon civilian unrest will pay them better dividends. But, I am confident, if we are able to win the hearts and minds of the people of Jammu and Kashmir, even those designs can be foiled.

There are a number of issues which deserved to be addressed. The most important is, our own pronouncements and our own promises to the people of Jammu and Kashmir. The larger issue of solving the problem of Jammu and Kashmir, the problems that are raised by Pakistan, is a larger issue. We will keep that aside for the time being. But, there are our government's pronouncements and our own promises to the people of Jammu and Kashmir in that part of Kashmir which is with India. And, I think, it is important that we deliver on our promises and we follow-up on our own pronouncements.

There is intense debate on these issues, as they should be. There is an intense debate in the country. There is an intense debate in many fora, including Parliament. There is intense debate within the government too and that is only to be expected. In a coalition government, intense debate is to be expected. But, I have not yielded on the argument that government must deliver on the promises that it made, *the government must follow-up on the pronouncements that were made. One amongst them is the Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act. I cannot brush aside other points of view. But, it will be my endeavour to work with everyone else and find a way in which we can deliver on our promise on the AFSP. Likewise, we have said that we would like to reduce the presence of security forces if conditions improve. In fact, we did it in 2009. A significant number of armed forces personnel were moved out of the valley. A significant number of paramilitary forces personnel were also moved out of the valley. When the situation warrants, we may have to send more forces. But, when the situation warrants, we may have to withdraw the forces too. And, that is the policy of the government of India.*

The UN Secretary General did not make the statement attributed to him. In fact, it was made by one of his staff members who happens to be a national of Pakistan. The UN Secretary General's office has flatly denied any such statement.

In the immediate short-term, this is an area in which I agree with the Leader of the Opposition and many others, we must bring an end to the violence on the streets of Jammu and Kashmir. I think it requires firm action by the security forces as well as the government of Jammu and Kashmir reaching out to the people.

It is not my purpose to find fault, to apportion blame, but I think some lessons have been learnt. I think the government of Jammu and Kashmir is now reaching out to the people. The Chief Minister has visited the injured people in the hospitals. Ministerial delegations have been sent to various district headquarters. We have advised the government to ensure that the District Magistrates and other civilian officials are more visible, more present and more accessible to the people.

In the last 48 hours, there has been a declining trend of incidents. I am not saying that this is the beginning of the end of violence. I hope it is, sincerely. There is, certainly, a declining trend, but there is no comfort in the fact that there is only one death a day. Loss of one life diminishes all of us. The loss of one life diminishes the credibility of governance in this country, but it is my sincere hope that our appeal, the appeal made by all the hon. Members belonging to all sections will be heeded by the people of Jammu and Kashmir. 

There was a period in 2004-05 when the streets of Jammu and Kashmir did not hear the word 'azadi'. On the contrary, youth came and said, "We want an MBA programme in the University. We want an IIT to be established here. We want an IIM to be established in Jammu and in Srinagar." It is unfortunate that those voices have been muted and the voices of azadi or Quit India have been raised. But I sincerely hope that this is only a passing phase and we will hear the voices of young Kashmiris saying that their destiny lies with India and that they want to be part of the India. I am sure that the voices that we heard in 2004, 2005 and 2006 will be heard once again on the streets of Jammu and Kashmir.

The immediate task is to restore law and order. No government can allow the law and order to collapse. That means, the government has collapsed. So, we have to restore law and order.

The Armed Forces have acted, as I said in my Statement, with a great degree of restraint. Over a thousand security personnel have been injured. And, they have been injured in the eye; they have been injured in the head; they have been injured in other sensitive parts of the body. Stones have been thrown by crowds running into a few thousands and if a few thousand stones are raining on police post or a platoon, you can imagine the kind of injury which they will suffer. I think they have acted with restraint. They have used lathis, they have used tear gas; then, they have used rubber bullets. In fact, some of the deaths have occurred because the rubber bullets can also kill if they hit a wrong spot in the body. To the bitter end, they have used the regular bullets too and they have killed. We continue to advise our security forces to act with restraint, but security forces, as I said in my Statement, have to act not only in self-defence but also to protect police stations, police outposts and government offices.

So, we will resume the political process. The answer to the problem of Jammu and Kashmir lies only through the political process and only through dialogues with all sections of the people.

We will resume the political process. Yesterday, we received a message that an All Party Delegation from Jammu and Kashmir wishes to call on the Prime Minister and I am happy to say that the Prime Minister has agreed to receive the All Party Delegation. We hope the delegation will come soon. In fact, we will be very happy to receive the delegation even as early as Monday.

Secondly, we are contemplating convening a meeting of leaders of political parties in Parliament. The date and time will be fixed by the Prime Minister's Office. We will let you know. So, let us meet here first, and, certainly, we will take on board your suggestion that a Parliamentary Delegation should visit Jammu and Kashmir. All this is part of reactivating the political process. Simultaneously, I have once again pressed upon all our interlocutors in Jammu and Kashmir that I am willing to resume the quiet dialogue. What happened on December 4 was indeed a rude interruption but we have to get over that. We have to pick ourselves up, we have to find the courage that allowed us to hold a dialogue earlier and I sincerely hope that moderate leaders will resume their dialogue with the Government of India.

If Mr. Gilani's statement of day-before-yesterday marks a shift in his position, I do not know. But if it marks a shift in his position, I think, we should welcome that shift in his position. I think we should accept at face value his statement until the contrary is proved. I don't think there is any reason to doubt people's statement. If it is a shift in his position, I would welcome that shift in position and I would be very happy if Mr. Gilani also joins the group of leaders who wishes to hold a dialogue with the government of India in one form or the other.

*There are some good signs. This year up to the 3rd of August, we have had 5,10,781 tourists visiting the state. That is a larger number than last year. This year until the 3rd of August, 4,11,407 yatris had darshan at Amarnath shrine. Last year the total number until the end of the yatra was 3,92,000 and we still have another 17 days for the yatra to conclude, and I think that the number will cross 5 lakhs. So, there is something else happening in Jammu and Kashmir also that the people of that state are welcoming the yatris, are welcoming tourists, people who depend upon tourism for their livelihood, people who depend upon the yatra period for earning their income for the rest of the year, those who supply ponies, those who supply food and those who carry the dollies.* I think there is something else also happening in Jammu and Kashmir, a story that is somehow not reflected in our discourse or in our media. So, while, unfortunate events have happened in the streets of Jammu and Kashmir, something else is also happening in Jammu and Kashmir.

It is important that the cycle of violence must come to an end, and, let me conclude by appealing to the people of Jammu and Kashmir, especially, young men and women, especially parents: Please work with us and put an end to this current cycle of violence so that we will pick up the threads, *we will reactivate the political process and we will through dialogue find solutions that will bring equity, justice and honour to all sections of the people of Jammu and Kashmir.*


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> Pakistan does not have an option..simply because it has no money....however the same can't be said about India........from my prospective it is a huge failure....at least the floods in Pakistan is a one off disaster.....there hasnn't been worse floods seen since the last 100 years.....so it was unexpected.....however India has known the on going problem in Kashmir since 1989....yet it has continued to fail in this regard.



You are missing the point and looking at half the statement. There havent been worse floods in 100 years, but this is not the 1st flood in 100 years. 

The point is that there is a list of priorities for a region. If the things are going well law and order wise, automatically new procurement in that field takes a back seat. Then one sudden episode of rioting can not negate the priorities created before that incident. Hind site is surely 20-20. 

But yes.. there will be people that will call this a state govt failure and if they are in sufficient number, they will change the govt thru elections.. After all, it was selected by these people only..

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## GreenStar

> Because its Kashmir, there is so much talk about it due to political angles, but anywhere in south asia, riots spanning 50 days and only resulting in 40 or so deaths is unbelievably mild.



Still does not excuse your goverment in killing 45 people.......that mentality of thinking that 40 people died just because its South Asia...is wrong in my opinion....it does not make it right.


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## GreenStar

> A good example is Karachi where 90 people have died in 4 days of rioting.



What is happening in Pakistan is wrong.....tell me how many Kashmiri people have died in the protest....and you compare that to the security forces.


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## GreenStar

> You are missing the point and looking at half the statement. There havent been worse floods in 100 years, but this is not the 1st flood in 100 years.



Then its the failure of the Pakistan goveremnt....its as simple as that.


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## EjazR

*www.outlookindia.com | 'The Key To Solutions'*

_The home minister's statement on Jammu & Kashmir in the Lok Sabha_

The situation in the state of Jammu & Kashmir continues to be a cause for concern. It has taken a serious turn in recent days. Beginning June 11, 2010, there has been a cycle of violence threatening law and order and public peace. The violence in the state has followed a certain pattern. Usually, the violence is triggered by stone pelting by large crowds and their targets of attack are police stations, police outposts and other public property. 

In the discharge of their duty to maintain law and order, the security forces have been compelled by the situation to resort to lathicharge and, if the lathicharge failed to yield results, to tear-gassing. When all attempts to control the crowds failed and there was the danger of the crowds over-running the police station or police outpost, the security forces have been compelled to resort to firing. While the security forces have been advised to deal with the crowds in a restrained manner, the relentless stone pelting and the danger of police stations and police outposts being overrun have compelled the security forces to use force both in self defence and in order to protect public property. There have been 39 civilian deaths since June 11, 2010; of these 22 deaths have occurred since July 30, 2010. Each case of death has been followed by more protests, stone-pelting and violent attacks. There have been instances where the security forces have been fired upon by someone in the protesting crowds. There is reliable intelligence that some armed militants may have mingled with the crowds and fired at the security forces. 

The central government deeply regrets the loss of lives in Jammu & Kashmir. Many of them were young men and children. I convey our deepest sympathies to the families of the deceased. A number of people have also been injured and the state government has assured that they will be given the best medical treatment. Even while we regret these incidents, I would appeal to the people of Jammu & Kashmir to put an end to the current cycle of violence. I have a special appeal to parents: your childrens safety and welfare is our paramount consideration  as it must be yours  and I would urge you to ensure that they do not join the violent protests.

It is my duty to point out that the security forces have conducted themselves with commendable restraint in a highly volatile situation. They have shown courage and fortitude. There has been a total of 872 stone pelting incidents in June and July 2010. 1266 security personnel have been injured in the last two months alone. On August 2, 2010, the Chief Minister chaired a meeting of the Unified Command in Srinagar. I am confident that the security forces will discharge the responsibilities entrusted to them by the state government and restore law and order and maintain peace.

On August 2, 2010, after a meeting with the Prime Minister, the Chief Minister appealed to the people of Jammu & Kashmir to put an end to the cycle of violence and maintain peace. He offered a dialogue for the redressal of grievances, including a dialogue to resolve the political issues that concern the people of Jammu and Kashmir. Delegations of ministers have been sent to the affected districts. Earlier, an all party meeting was convened in Srinagar on July 12, 2010 and certain administrative measures, including ex-gratia payments to the next of kin of those killed in the violence, were announced.

The government of Jammu & Kashmir is actively considering a number of political and administrative measures that will help restore normalcy in the state. However, the Chief Minister, while affirming his commitment to taking certain political and administrative measures, has made it clear that the current cycle of violence would have to end before he can take the initiative in this regard. The central government endorses his appeal and sincerely hopes that the cycle of violence will come to an end immediately.

Government's policy on Jammu & Kashmir has been declared on many occasions. We recognise that the issues concerning J&K are issues concerning our own people; and they have to be addressed through the political process and through a dialogue with all sections of the people of Jammu & Kashmir. Government has always favoured a dialogue. In fact, in 2009, the central government initiated a quiet dialogue with key political groups and individuals. I had hoped that the dialogue would open a window of opportunity to activate the political process in order to find solutions. However, that dialogue was interrupted on December 4, 2009 when there was an attempt on the life of Shri Fazl-ul-Haq, a leader who favoured dialogue, and he was seriously injured.

I may assure this House that adequate forces are available to the government of Jammu and Kashmir. 

In conclusion, I would urge all sections of the people of Jammu & Kashmir to heed the voices of reason and desist from violent protests. Mindless violence and destruction of public property will not lead to any solution. On the contrary, they will result in loss of lives and injuries to the protestors, an outcome that is entirely avoidable and that should be avoided at all costs. The people of Jammu & Kashmir have elected a government and they must repose their faith in that government to find solutions to the problems of Jammu & Kashmir. Once peace and order are restored, I am confident that we can explore the possibility of reactivating the political process that holds the key to solutions. On its part, the central government offers its full support to the state government in restoring law and order, holding a dialogue, redressing genuine grievances, accelerating development programmes, and ensuring equity, justice and honour for all sections of the people of Jammu & Kashmir.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> Still does not excuse your goverment in killing 45 people.......that mentality of thinking that 40 people died just because its South Asia...is wrong in my opinion....it does not make it right.



I dont agree to that. Its a law and order situation. Could have been handled better, but thats true for everything in the world, starting from the riots in Karachi to the war in Afghanistan or PA operation in NWFP or Indian handling of Maoists. Easy for all of us to sit in our homes and second guess the position on ground zero. And there is no question of excusing or not excusing the govt. Its selected by these same people. If they think the govt should not be excused, they will boot it out. Its not for anyone else to pass judgement on that..

I thing that surprises me the most though is the silence of Pakistani media on this.. specially if I compare it to the unrest around the Amarnath Land allottment.. Does anyone have a view on that..??


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## sensenreason

GreenStar said:


> Still does not excuse your goverment in killing 45 people.......that mentality of thinking that 40 people died just because its South Asia...is wrong in my opinion....it does not make it right.



The mentality of blowing things out of proportion as you have been doing is also not right. You have a chip on your shoulder...


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## Spring Onion

*Indian/bharti terrorists bring on bullets we are not afraid of death: Kashmiris*


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> What is happening in Pakistan is wrong.....tell me how many Kashmiri people have died in the protest....and you compare that to the security forces.



I assume that you are saying what is the ratio of civilians to Sec Forces casualties.. So if I remember right, no sec force man has died and I think thats good. However over 1000 have been hurt thru stone pelting in the period. And again, the security forces seem to have been extremely restrained in the response considering the no of injuries and the length of the unrest...


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## GreenStar

> The mentality of blowing things out of proportion as you have been doing is also not right. You have a chip on your shoulder...



Personally attacking me like I said to you is a waste of time......this is a public forum so......as a result I can voice what I believe.....I have no chip on my shoulder.....lol......it makes me laugh that you get all emotional.


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## GreenStar

> I assume that you are saying what is the ratio of civilians to Sec Forces casualties.. So if I remember right, no sec force man has died and I think thats good.



Okay that is good that none of the security forces have died....so what made them use live bullets....and I repeat live bullets.


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## GreenStar

> And again, the security forces seem to have been extremely restrained in the response considering the no of injuries and the length of the unrest




Like when that police man showed restraint when he shoved a baton down a boys throat.....no one in this thread has answered to me...in what is going to happen to the policeman in question that this this course of action.


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## karan.1970

Jana said:


> *Indian/bharti terrorists bring on bullets we are not afraid of death: Kashmiris*



Post seems to be in violation of forum rules of out of context one liners. Unless it was a news headline and Jana ji forgot to post the link


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> Okay that is good that none of the security forces have died....so what made them use live bullets....and I repeat live bullets.



I assume to prevent themselves from getting killed by superior number of rioters...


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> Okay that is good that none of the security forces have died....so what made them use live bullets....and I repeat live bullets.



Why are you going in circles here??is it really hard for you to understand it..it was pointed out by many members here that the mob was violent and they were torching down and destructing proerties and govt offices..if it was not got under control many more people would have dead because of it..so they have to use lethal force..


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## EjazR

GreenStar said:


> Like when that police man showed restraint when he shoved a baton down a boys throat.....no one in this thread has answered to me...in what is going to happen to the policeman in question that this this course of action.



^^^^There was a report of an eight year old boy who died in a stampede, is that what you are referring to?

I don't think the police have time to sit around putting batons in little boys throats.


And there have been casualties due to *some* protestors as well, for example fivepeople died in a blast when protestors set a police station on fire and explosives inside that exploded. The police were not involved in that but those people who wanted to set fire to public property. Similarly other public property including a Girls school in Baramulla area was also set on fire.

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## GreenStar

> Why are you going in circles here??is it really hard for you to understand it..it was pointed out by many members here that the mob was violent and they were torching down and destructing proerties and govt offices..if it was not got under control many more people would have dead because of it..so they have to use lethal force..



And it was pointed out by many Indian member, such as Indian Rabbit....that the Indian forces were only using rubber bullets.....clearly that is not the case....as I have proven it wrong with 3 articles. So is it really hard for you top understand.....that your security force is using excessive force.


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## GreenStar

> There was a report of an eight year old boy who died in a stampede, is that what you are referring to



Nope EjazR....it wasn't that boy...I was an article forward by an Pakistan Ejaz that said a Policeman shoved a baton down a boys throat.


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## GreenStar

> The police were not involved in that but the protestors.



But the Police is a pofessional body Ejazr.....it is there duty to maintain public order......not going around and shooting protesters simply because they were overrun...... that is your state goverments fault for not allocating funds for police training and police equipment


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## EjazR

GreenStar said:


> Nope EjazR....it wasn't that boy...I was an article forward by an Pakistan Ejaz that said a Policeman shoved a baton down a boys throat.



Can you give me the link to that. I have been following all the local Kashmir based newspapers and there was only one eight year old casualty. Although unfortuantely there have been many teenagers and women as well. These are unacceptable ofcourse,the police should have had Nonlethal crowd control techniques in place.


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## Hulk

Seriously speaking I agree to one point that we should invest in non leathal riot controling technologies and think seriously it will help us only. Also I do not know the story of secuirty forces but at high level it seems that we did not handled it well and might have been heavy handed. The other thing is all over India this heavy handedness of police is common so we generally stay out of it. Now next question is as we are looking to become developed country it is high time we fix this problem.


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## GreenStar

okay let me try to find it, for you it was posted originally by Ejaz the Pakistani Poster.


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## EjazR

GreenStar said:


> But the Police is a pofessional body Ejazr.....it is there duty to maintain public order......not going around and shooting protesters simply because they were overrun...... that is your state goverments fault for not allocating funds for police training and police equipment



Well the entire analysis will probably be done and remedies mentioned. The police by and large has done a commendable job if you look in the historical perspective of the last two decades. The majority of the deaths have happened since last saturday when miscreants had started burning govt. builds and attacking houses and families of mainstream politicians and police. As well as attacks on anyone who defies shutdowns or goes to the govt. offices or open shops e.t.c.

The J&K police has been trained as a COIN force because of the militants infiltrating in Kashmir for the last two decades. IT is high time that crowd control techniques are used from now on. Even one death is a death too much.


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## sensenreason

GreenStar said:


> Personally attacking me like I said to you is a waste of time......this is a public forum so......as a result I can voice what I believe.....I have no chip on my shoulder.....lol......it makes me laugh that you get all emotional.



You are the one getting emotional. Using bullets on an unarmed crowd can be in certain situations disproportionate force...just like your your responses.

Its a public forum and you have every right to disagree/debate etc..Im not attacking you personally...just pointing out when you start behaving like what you are accusing others of being like.

I dont know you and couldnt care less,even if you 'win'(not that you are...) a debate or discussion...its not a competition !

But I do get a sense that you seem to be unreasonably attached to a certain viewpoint given your so called neutrality that you support with your British nationality.

Just as an aside...40 Indian MPs cutting across party lines have appealed for a dialogue with the separatists and to stop the violence...while Indian democracy does'nt meet your fake lofty standards but it does has both its moments and sparks and am sure justice will be served.

Next time a British PM says he has conclusive evidence that a country has a nuclear weapon...well...there wont be any believers.For that matter, there wont be many believers for anything he might say whether its about Pakistan in India or about Pakistan-British relations in London.


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## GreenStar

> Held Kashmir unrest getting out of Indian hands



Here is the link....it said that an 8 year old's lung was ruptured due to security forces shoving a baton down his throat.


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## GreenStar

> You are the one getting emotional.



I love your jokes....you should be a comedian.


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## GreenStar

> Using bullets on an unarmed crowd can be in certain situations disproportionate force...just like your your responses.



You are actually comparing live bullets....to my responses...that is scary.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

gurjot said:


> if this is true,then india would have influenced the u.s.



Yes they have , Now US has two sons


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## GreenStar

> But I do get a sense that you seem to be unreasonably attached to a certain viewpoint given your so called neutrality that you support with your British nationality.



My Nationality has nothing to do with it... It is my view point....not everyone has the same opinion.


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## GreenStar

> Next time a British PM says he has conclusive evidence that a country has a nuclear weapon...well...there wont be any believers.For that matter, there wont be many believers for anything he might say whether its about Pakistan in India or about Pakistan-British relations in London.



Stick to the topic...thread is not about what Britain did...or what mistakes our Prime did back in 2003.


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## sensenreason

GreenStar said:


> I love your jokes....you should be a comedian.



Thank you. Can you give me a reference? You want an autograph..take a print of my previous response!


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## EjazR

@Greenstar

You made the mistake of reading an article by Arun Rajnath. It isbetter you read articles from local Kashmir media like DailyKashmirImages for example

There are allegations that he died due to beating as well by the locals but do you serioulsy believe that they would have enought time to use a wooden bamboo stick that is used by the local police there to be shoved down a throat and instead of going to his stomach it would rupture his lungs?

The doctors can only say wether it was a stampede related death or not and I guess we will have to wait for the inquiry to take place on this.

Kashmir Images :: Details


> An eight-year-old boy, Sameer Ahmed Rah, who was injured during a clash between protesters and security forces in Batamaloo area succumbed to his injuries in a Srinagar hospital. While residents alleged Sameer was beaten by police, police said he was injured in the stampede when security forces took action against the protesters. Meanwhile, the violence in the valley showed no signs of abating as an angry mob burned down the police station in Rajpora.


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## sensenreason

GreenStar said:


> Stick to the topic...thread is not about what Britain did...or what mistakes our Prime did back in 2003.



New PM's new mistakes....in 2010. In a way its connected to what Britain did in 47. But sure will keep it out of the discussion.


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## GreenStar

> The doctors can only say wether it was a stampede related death or not and I guess we will have to wait for the inquiry to take place on this.



Fair enough we will have to wait for the inquiry...to know why his lungs were ruptured.


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> s. So is it really hard for you top understand.....that your security force is using excessive force.



Come on mate..one side people burining and destroying public property,if it continue like this more people would have been killed..Is it the first time any country using lethal weapons against violent mob..is it the first time people got killed in firings..some times it has to be used againsty violent mob...


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## GreenStar

> New PM's new mistakes....in 2010. In a way its connected to what Britain did in 47. But sure will keep it out of the discussion.



Well done....for sticking to the Topic.


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## GreenStar

> When it comes to Kashmir Pakistan news paper is the least thing you should trust. they have plenty of reporters who have a lots of imagination



Like EjazR said there will be an inquiry....then we will know.


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## GreenStar

> some times it has to be used againsty violent mob



Then you will create another generation that will hate India....then the protests will happen again in another 5 years....shooting is not solving the issue at hand.


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> Then you will create another generation that will hate India....then the protests will happen again in another 5 years....shooting is not solving the issue at hand.



Yes its not a long term option..Police and CRPF has to be trained in better crowd management..we have to admit that our police force is not well trained as European ones..


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## GreenStar

That is good seiko that your admitting that there has been some bad managment......but it won't bring those 45 people back......which is very sad.


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## GreenStar

> Man, you guys are real delusional. Who the **** mehmood ghaznavi is to invade us. Is he some mythical person from your 3500 year old quran? If so, spare us of your delusional beliefs.



You should be more careful throwing abusive language is against forum rules....and evryone is entitled to there beliefs.


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## indushek

The violence will erupt and engulf the whole of Kashmir, where people will stand and sing songs of welcoming their Pakistani 'brethren' to take control. After that it will slowly spread to Jammu then the next state and then next state. Slowly the Islamic Caliphate of India is formed by day after tomorrow.

Or a ghazwa e hind will occur where soldiers of Islam and a handful like some 10 to 20 will take care of the whole of India.

Hindus beings spineless and banya will fall at their feet and accept their rightful place of 'Dhimmi'. Excellent. 

The Glee at the burning of neighbours house is pretty evident. 

 @ Asim Aquil ur creating n number of threads but please understand one thing, if push comes to the shove, WE WILL SEND ALL THOSE FREEDOM FIGHTERS under the garb of civilians to where they belong. Doesn't matter how many they are, u can call it violence or whetever u want. KASHMIR WILL NEVER GET OUT OF OUR HAND NEVER.


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## GreenStar

> . some Pakistani are more interested in indian problem rather than caring about own big problems.



As this is a forum...everyone is allowed to discuss all types of issues whether its Pakistani related...or Indian related. I don't know hy you complain the Pakistani Posters allow you to speak on there internal matter.....so why can't they do the same with you.....double standards.


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## EjazR

*AFP: Curfew briefly relaxed in Kashmir*

SRINAGAR, India  A week-long curfew was briefly lifted in revolt-hit Indian Kashmir's main city of Srinagar on Saturday even as anti-India protests claimed the life of another demonstrator, police said.

The protester died in hospital Saturday after being injured the previous day when security forces opened fire during a demonstration in the northern town of Sopore in Indian Kashmir which has been roiled by a 20-year insurgency against New Delhi's rule.

Police said they were forced to resort to firing after teargas and baton charges failed to subdue the crowd.

The Muslim-majority region has been rocked by violent demonstrations against New Delhi's rule since the death in early June of a teenage student who was killed by a police tear-gas shell.

Some 49 people have been killed, many of them young men and teenagers shot dead by security forces, including 32 in the past eight days.

In Kashmir's summer capital Srinagar, curfew was relaxed for the first time in seven days, prompting panic buying by residents to stock up on food supplies.

"We are relaxing the curfew for two hours," the police announced through loudspeakers mounted on vehicles in Srinagar, a city of one million people.

While main markets remained shut to protest at the killings, smaller neighbourhood shops opened.

They reported they were running out of supplies as buyers emptied shelves.

"I am struggling to get some baby food for my three-year old daughter," said housewife Bilkees Jan, 29, after returning empty-handed from three shops.

The protests in the past eight weeks have been some of the biggest anti-India demonstrations in Indian Kashmir since 2008.

The curfew was imposed last Saturday in Srinagar and other towns in the Kashmir valley by authorities who hoped to prevent further protests.

Curfews were also eased in a few other towns, police said.

State government authorities said they were seeking to provide enough food and medicine for the Himalayan region.

Nuclear-armed India and Pakistan have fought two wars over Kashmir and New Delhi has long accused Islamabad of training Muslim militants fighting Indian rule.


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## Babur Han

It lacks on Strategic Balance in the eurasian and south Asian Region, thats the Reason why India can do what they want. The Region need a strong Union of Turkic States, Turkic People have a deep Cultural Bond with Pakistan and can be a Strong Counterweight against Indias hegemonial ambitions !

Time for Turan !


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## sensenreason

GreenStar said:


> Well done....for sticking to the Topic.



Do not patronise me.


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## EjazR

*Army, IAF bring succour to devastated Leh | TwoCircles.net*

By IANS,

New Delhi/Leh: Six Indian Air Force (IAF) planes landed Saturday in devastated Leh town in Jammu and Kashmir's Ladakh region with men and material to carry out rescue and relief operations after flash floods triggered by a massive cloudburst killed 120 people.

The Indian Army has also activated its disaster management cell for rescue operations on a war footing since the tragedy hit the cold desert mountainous region located at an altitude of 3,505 metres.

Heavy rainfall disrupted the operations for a few hours Saturday. More than 6,000 army soldiers are conducting rescue and relief work in the region that shares its borders with China.

While the priority of the relief operations of the army is on saving lives and property, soldiers are also providing succour to the affected with food, drinking water, medicines. Bulldozers and other earth moving equipment of the army were pressed into service to clear the mudslide.

Leh airport, affected in the mud slide, was opened Saturday and six planes of the IAF carrying disaster response teams, doctors, communications equipment and material took off from Delhi and Chandigarh.

A defence spokesperson said the rescue and relief operations "received a major boost with the arrival of six plane loads of men and material augmented".

Two Ilyushin-76 and four Antonov-32 aircraft of the IAF carried 30 tonnes of load, which include 125 rescue and relief personnel, medicines, generators, tents, portable X-ray machines and emergency rescue kits.

Two teams from the central ministry of health and family welfare, including specialist doctors and surgeons from Delhi, also reached Leh.

The spokesman said 110 bodies were been recovered from debris.

From Western Command Headquarters in Chandigarh, 4,000 ready-to-eat food packets were sent to Leh.

A MI-17 helicopter had been pressed into service to carry out relief operations in Nubra Valley since Friday when the disaster struck, while two more Chetak helicopters have been provided to the civil administration for aerial recce of affected areas.

Some 33 columns of the army and personnel of the Indo-Tibetan Border Police have been deployed in the affected areas to carry out rescue operations, the spokesperson said.

"So far, more than 500 injured civilians and tourists have been treated at the military hospital at Leh and about 100 discharged after treatment. As a special gesture, the IAF has agreed to carry bodies of foreign tourists and non-locals to Delhi if no civilian flights are available from Leh," he said.

The tri-service Disaster Management Coordination Group, which met at South Block Saturday morning, reviewed the progress in rescue and relief operations and decided to earmark special service aircraft to carry 19 VSATs and a set of other equipment of BSNL to Leh. This is being done to help restore mobile and telecom connectivity at the earliest.

In the meantime, two INMARSAT mobile phones have been provided to Leh district administration for meeting immediate communication requirements.

Defence Minister A.K. Antony, who is closely following the rescue and relief efforts, was briefed by the tri-service Disaster Management Group about the steps taken to provide succour to the victims in Leh, the spokesperson said.


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## GreenStar

I actually was not patronizing you....I just congratulaled you in sticking to the topic...in which you have failed in the past.


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## sunny001

GreenStar said:


> You should be more careful throwing abusive language is against forum rules....and evryone is entitled to there beliefs.



Sure I will, but ask the person who commented about invading us to do the same thing. If somebody is going to invade us, we have every right to abuse him.


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## Iggy

RIP to the dead souls..hope it wont escalate further..


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## GreenStar

Deaths in renewed Kashmir violence - CENTRAL/S. ASIA - Al Jazeera English

It seems violence is resuming......not good at all.....it means more innocent people will die.


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## Qasibr

I honestly don't think appeasement's going to work, it's just too difficult to implement it on the ground. Sometimes the policies made in the halls of Delhi don't easily trickle down to the foot soldier in IHK.


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## GreenStar

Kashmir Watch :: In-depth coverage on Kashmir conflict

Thats alot of people....80 since 2009


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## EjazR

*Curfew relaxed in several areas in Kashmir - Hindustan Times*

The authorities in Kashmir lifted curfew from several areas in phases on Saturday. Demonstration and stone throwing, however, continued with one more civilian injured in north Kashmir yesterday, succumbing to his injuries in the morning in a hospital. Rameez Reshi (22), critically injured in
related stories

* Geelani back to square one, takes hard-line position on dialogue

security forces firing on protesters in north Kashmir Sopore area, breathed his last at Sher-i-Kashmir Institute of Medical Sciences. He was admitted on Friday evening after being hit by a bullet in Sopore&#8217;s Warpora area during demonstration. The death toll of civilians since June 11 has now risen to 50.

The authorities, however, relaxed curfew in eight police station in Srinagar and several areas in south and central Kashmir. &#8220;The curfew was lifted completely in Budgam, Ganderbal, and Handwara districts,&#8221; said a spokesman of the district magistrates.

There was huge rush of people buying essentials, grocery and LPG gas. Many areas were running out of essential stocks. &#8220;There was no LPG cylinder in my home. I am out to buy one,&#8221; said Alam Jan, a resident of uptown Srinagar&#8217;s Magermal Bagh.

Many grocery shops opened their shutters to sell good to the needy. &#8220;I have been receiving calls from local residents to open the shop,&#8221; said Gaffar Lone, a grocery shop owner in Rambagh area. The deal in curfew was given in phases for couple of hours. In many areas, the deal was extended.

There were, however, reports of protests from several areas. The security forces fired in the air to disperse a procession at Chanapora. North Kashmir&#8217;s Rafiabad area also witnessed major protest procession. By and large, the Kashmir valley remained peaceful after weeks of violent protests and deaths.


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## EjazR




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## parasite

Sad.
Something is terribly going wrong with the climate.......


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## Gentle Typhoon

Rest in peace !


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## EjazR

The Kashmir Valley has witnessed widespread protests and many young lives have been lost in the cycle of violence. It seems that all lines of communication have broken down between the protesters and the government authorities. Now the question is how to mend the links? 

Valley of gloom: Time for a Kashmir envoy?-NDTV panel discussion

Panel includes foremer J&K CM Farooq Abdulla, Congress and BJP spokespersons, Sonia Jabbar journalistfromSrinagar and Mirwaiz Umar Farooq of APHC


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## Dance

desiman said:


> Sorry but Kashmir is non-negotiable, and is an integral part of India, Pakistan has no business in it and it better leave it alone for its own good. Stressing on this issue has put Pakistan on the verge of collapse and you have become nothing more than a laughing stock in the world. Its better you focus on your internal issues and stop poking your head into other countries. Kashmir stay's with India, period.



Dude do you do anything besides say delusional things 

Only indians like you would say Kashmir is an "integral" part of india, when most Kashmiris hate your guts and the world does not recognize Kashmir as a part of india


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## Vinod2070

The bottom line is: Kashmir stays with India.

These disturbances warm the cockles of some hearts across the border and gives them something to be excited about.

Nothing more.

Game theory says that people will make rational choices in the end. We can wait for that time.


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## EjazR

*Kashmir News | News Kashmir*

A personnel Special Operation Group of Police and an army trooper were killed while a Captain were injured in separate gunfights with militants in Baramulla and Poonch district on Friday.

Concerned authorities claimed that Muslim Khan  a trooper of 47 Rashtriya Rifles was killed and a Captain of the army unit Captain Prakesh injured when militants attacked the army patrol near Zaloora area of Sopore town in north Kashmirs Baramulla district last evening. The army returned the fire and cordoned off the whole area. The militants however managed to escape from the spot, reports added.

SP Sopore Altaf Ahmad Khan confirmed the incident and said that the searches were on in the area.

Meanwhile, army claimed that a follower of SOG was killed in an ongoing encounter between militants and joint team of police and 33RR at Sanjot forest area in Mendhar Poonch.

Brigadier General Staff of 16 Corps, Nagrota, Brigadier Duwa told media that following specific information, police and army launched the cordon this evening in the forest area. He said that militants opened fire, killing a policeman. The fire was later returned, triggering of an encounter.

A senior Police Office of the Poonch identified the slain as Rukhsar Mirza of Surankote, who according to cop was working as follower of the SOG unit. When reports last came in, the gunfight was going on.


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## Usama86

Kashmire is an internationally accepted disputed area, there is a LOC not an international border dividing both sides of Kashmire i cannot understand why Indians here call it India's internal matter and how do they assume that Kashmiri's are Indians. Unrest in Kashmire due to ISI, USA having a hard time in AFG due to ISI, bomb plots in UK- ISI and now women stone pellters- ISI. Most of us need someone to point a finger at to hide our own failures but only the strong can face and defeat their short comings.


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## banned

After were the Indian offical stand, these are all Pakistanis and unrest has ISI hand in it. Now I have an Indian-Kashmiri collegue at work who hurls nothing but insult to India 24/7. Everytime I overhear him, I grin and exclaim "thanks god for Pakistan". 



indianrabbit said:


> Definetly it means more work to done by us and we will do it.
> 
> About land even if we have to scarifice/kill millions let's be prepared for it. Better Kashmir's understand Independence is not an option for them else they are one who will suffer.



No wonder hitler choose the swastika as a symbol of "good luck" to all races other than aryan! Your subconsiousness speaks of "akhand bharat" indoctrination through state sponser propoganda day and night. So what are you gonna do? Devise a final solution for all Kashmiris?


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## Vinod2070

Typical tactics of these cowards, hiding behind women's skirts (or veils in this case).

The LM mullahs did it, the Hamas did it, the Iraqi dictator hid behind civilians.

Nothing is happening to Kashmir, some may get some temporary excitement and relieve themselves on it. Kashmir is not going anywhere and most Kashmiris are solidly Indians. The rest can go take a hike.

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## DGMO

Vinod2070 said:


> most Kashmiris are solidly Indians


But not in the Valley. Never seem to have been, nor does it seem they'll ever class themselves as Indians in the future.

Despite the increasing investment over the past decade from the Indian govt, you just can't win them over it seems. They refuse to be part of India.

That's the problem. Blaming it on the ISI is just a smokescreen. Even after 60 years, the hatred for India in the Valley is incredibly strong.


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## KSRaj

fawwaxs said:


> *Female Protesters in J&K put Security Forces in Fix *
> 
> 
> The protesters wanted to exploit the situation in Jammu & Kashmir. *They put the women and young boys in front of the demonstrations so that thesecurity forces don't hit back hard*.



Thats surprising! And all this time people here claimed that the brutal Indian army actually enjoyed killing kids and women in J&K!

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## KSRaj

Jana said:


> It is very sad to know that you in a bid to justify the terrorism of Indian army in Kashmir, even had succumbed to the false propaganda by Indians that Indians from Kerala were fighting along side freedom fighters against Indian troops.




Jana,

I can justify the comments made by sieko with proof. 

But going by your track-record of not letting facts change your opinions, proofs shouldnt matter!

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## KSRaj

Jana said:


> The medals were given for tomato catch up dramas and it was exposed only because some other tomato catch up Colonels felt the need to pull the leg because they were NOT decorated with the same.



Whats tomato "catch up" dramas got to do with this topic... where did that come from!?


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## KSRaj

banned said:


> No wonder hitler choose the swastika as a symbol of "good luck" to all races other than aryan!



In a thread where the mods have been deleting messages right, left and center, deeming them as off-topic... fortunately, gems like these are allowed to linger!


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## matti

*What is making the ordinary Kashmiri woman so angry that she is out on the street, throwing stones at police and leading the mob?*


SRINAGAR: Kashmiri women traditionally evoke contradictory images in the world's consciousness: a dimpled Sharmila Tagore coyly rowing a shikara on the Dal Lake in Kashmir ki Kali; a group of burqa-clad women thrashing the owner of a beauty parlour in the heart of Srinagar; an ashen-faced woman standing alone by a broken window, watching a funeral procession out on her street. But the prevailing image of the last few weeks is of women walking the Valley's roads and shouting slogans against the Indian forces. 

*Last week, as the government in Delhi was busy blaming "outside" forces for provoking young children to throw stones at police and paramilitary forces, the women came out of their houses on one Srinagar street*, bringing their pots and pans with them. They beat on the utensils, used them like cymbals and ran down the street, picking up stones and taking aim at a column of troops. The scene was replayed on other streets. The women &#8212; mostly housewives and young girls &#8212; had emerged from their homes to throw stones at the security forces and burn government jeeps. For a change, the police, which has felled 51 people in almost as many days, couldn't fire their SLRs. 

Is the Kashmiri woman's new 'movement' all that new? Not really. Kashmir's women have been coming out onto the streets since 1990, when the insurgency began in the state. But this is the first time they have chucked stones, burned vehicles and led demonstrations against the police. In the years the militancy was at its peak, the women in villages, towns and cities across the Valley *routinely emerged from their homes to shout slogans for Azaadi. *
In those years, the separatists and their sympathizers would use the women as human shields, preventing decisive action by the security forces. Every time, a militant was arrested, a sympathizer would run to a mosque and use its loudspeakers to ask the women to come out in protest. "Maajan, benan cho wanane yawa ki tem neran sadakan pat (Mothers and sisters are requested to come out on the roads for protests)," was the message that reverberated through the Valley in the 1990s. 

In this unquiet summer of 2010, the scene is a bit different. There are no urgent announcements from the mosques but the women are coming out in large numbers, on their own. They are not serving as human shields. They are leading the stone-pelting crowds. *As the roads outside their houses boil with rage, many mothers and sisters have become street-fighters, joining husbands, sons and brothers in the demonstrations that have been erupting for weeks. *
Asiya Andarabi, the separatist leader, believes part of the reason is because Kashmir's women can no longer ignore the death and mayhem outside their homes.* "Every woman is affected by the turmoil here. Hundreds of Kashmiri women have their husbands in jails. Their husbands have been killed by security forces. So their anger is genuine," *says Andarabi, who founded the separatist Dukhtaran-e-Millat or Daughters of the community. 

Many in the Valley share this anger. Parveena Ahangar, who heads the association of parents of disappeared persons, says the women have suffered the most during Kashmir's tumultuous years. "My son was picked by the BSF men in early 1990s and since then his whereabouts are not known. Who can douse my anger?" 

Ahangar, who lives in Batamaloo in Srinagar, travels to Lal Chowk every couple of weeks to join dozens of women in a sit-in protest to "remind the authorities about the missing persons". "I have dedicated my life to Kashmir's struggle," says Ahangar, who is haunted by the memory of her son. 

But it is more than the trauma of the past. The continuing presence of heavily-armed Indian soldiers seems to have triggered a deep and fierce anger. Rozy Salim, 40, joined the protests two weeks ago, saying she could no longer bear the security forces going berserk in her locality every now and then. *"Let India read the writing on the wall and realize the anger of Kashmiris against the occupation of Kashmir. They should allow the Kashmiris to decide their fate as per the UN resolutions," she says. *
In the last two months, thousands of young boys have taken part in protests against police firing. Most of the protests ended in more police firing. Their mothers are worried and fearful their sons will be injured or shot dead. The worry has provoked them to anger. Jana Begum of Rawalpora went out to protest last week after her 22-year-old son was picked up by police for taking part in a street rally. "We will demolish every symbol of the state as our sons are being targeted by the forces," she says. Jana's neighbour Fatima Khan says she stands by Jana and other women whose sons have been picked up by the police for pelting stones at them. 

Though many agree that the sight of women throwing stones is an indicator of the people's rage at the state, some say there is nothing unusual about it. "Women here come out to protest against electric power and water shortage as well," says Ghulam Mohammad Dar, 60, a resident of Pampore. *But even he agrees that the sight of the security forces beating women with sticks and opening fire to stop them in their tracks is a new low for Kashmir. "It's something I haven't seen before," Dar says.* 

These ugly scenes may be playing themselves out in Srinagar's working-class neighbourhoods, but middle-class women are affected too. Many say they are moved by the daily pitched battles between the people and paramilitary forces. Dr Shameem Dar says that the fact "the Kashmiri women are forced to come out on the streets when forces arrest or use excessive force against the stone pelters, is a reaction to the use of force against their sons and husbands." 

*How long can this go on? Now, the guns are being trained on the women too. Last Sunday, Afroza Teli was hit by a bullet as she stood in a protest on a road at Khrew. Another woman Fancy Jan died last month from a bullet that hit her as she looked out of her window. In Kashmir today, women seem ready for the good fight, facing bullets on the streets and at their windows.* 

TOI


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## matti




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## wap7

Do send in relief to the Prime Minister's relief fund!! All your relief money is 100&#37; tax exempt and goes directly to aid the victims of Leh. 

If you're in India it has to be through standard DD/Cheque and regular mail.
For folks abroad, you could do a SWIFT transfer.

Details here: goo.gl/NKP7

A relief would be go a little further than a note saying 'Rest in Peace'  Especially to you, dollar milking fatcats!! 


PM note - 



> Help the Victims of Leh Flash Floods - As NDRF and IAF Begin Relief Work in Leh
> 
> In pursuance of an appeal by the then Prime Minister, Pt. Jawaharlal Nehru in January, 1948, the Prime Minister&#8217;s National Relief Fund (PMNRF) was established with public contributions to assist displaced persons from Pakistan. The resources of the PMNRF are now utilized primarily to render immediate relief to families of those killed in natural calamities like floods, cyclones and earthquakes, etc. and to the victims of the major accidents and riots.



Regards


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## Vinod2070

DGMO said:


> But not in the Valley. Never seem to have been, nor does it seem they'll ever class themselves as Indians in the future.
> 
> Despite the increasing investment over the past decade from the Indian govt, you just can't win them over it seems. They refuse to be part of India.
> 
> That's the problem. Blaming it on the ISI is just a smokescreen. Even after 60 years, *the hatred for India in the Valley is incredibly strong.*



I know of many Kashmiris who are getting educated and working all over India. You don't seem to be aware of the level of engagement of Kashmir with the rest of India.

They are already a part of India and will remain so. The only thing is left is that it sinks down to some that it is never going to change, not by terror, not by pelting stones and not by crying.

*India is not going to be split again for reasons of hatred and sectarianism. That is final. Those who can't live in a secular democracy had their chance in 1947.*

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## Jade

Vinod2070 said:


> I know of many Kashmiris who are getting educated and working all over India. You don't seem to be aware of the level of engagement of Kashmir with the rest of India.
> 
> They are already a part of India and will remain so. The only thing is left is that it sinks down to some that it is never going to change, not by terror, not by pelting stones and not by crying.
> 
> *India is not going to be split again for reasons of hatred and sectarianism. That is final. Those who can't live in a secular democracy had their chance in 1947.*



Great to see you back mate

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## EjazR

*Curfew lifted from entire Kashmir Valley - India - The Times of India*

SRINAGAR: Curfew was on Sunday lifted from the entire Kashmir Valley following improvement in the situation after days of violent street protests and police firing.

Relative calm prevailed in the city and other parts of the Valley, prompting the authorities to lift the curfew, police said. Curfew was withdrawn from three districts of the state -- Budgam, Gandarbal and Kupwara -- and some localities of the Srinagar city on Saturday.

As per police, curfew has now been withdrawn from the districts of Anantnag, Srinagar, Baramulla, Kulgam, Bandipora, Shopian and Pulwama.

Curfew was imposed in the entire Valley on July 31 in the wake of violent protests in which 33 people were killed and several others, including securitymen, injured.

The latest round of violence in the Valley saw protestors attacking and torching government and police buildings, railway stations and vehicles, prompting hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani to issue a surprise appeal telling agitators that burning public property would damage the "movement".

Urging people of Kashmir to "heed to voices of reason" and desist from violent protests, home minister P Chidambaram had on August 4 promised to reactivate a dialogue to address their grievances once normalcy is restored in the Valley.

Battling the upsurge in violence in the Valley, chief minister Omar Abdullah had visited Delhi and met Prime Minister Manmohan Singh last week. Omar had said the state needs a political initiative to deal with the situation but made it clear that for that to happen a semblance of normalcy was needed.

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## karan.1970

Inshah'allah .. This unfortunate situation is behind us.. Time for Omar and Farooq to get their act together fast...

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## Iggy

Good news..hope government will learn from the mistakes they made and give adequate training for paramilitary and police in crowd management


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## Awesome

Kashmir Watch :: In-depth coverage on Kashmir conflict



> Srinagar: Hurriyat Conference led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani Saturday announced fresh protest calendar for next coming week in connection with its ongoing Quit Kashmir Campaign.
> 
> The Hurriyat Conference (G) Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani Saturday again stress on Quit Kashmir movement and said that there was no question of dialogue with India unless New Delhi accepted the disputed nature of Kashmir.
> 
> Unless India accepts the disputed nature of Kashmir and withdraws its troops, the question of entering into dialogue with New Delhi does not arise at all, Geelani said in press conference on Saturday here.
> 
> On Monday (August 9) their will be complete strike and people have been asked to protest in peaceful manner and offer prayers on roads."
> 
> On August 10, Hurriyat (G) has asked people to follow graffiti and display banners saying 'Go India Go' and 'Quit Kashmir.
> 
> People have been asked to march towards Pampore on Wednesday (August 11).
> 
> We urge people to march towards Pampora in South Kashmir to show solidarity and pay condolence to those killed in police and Central Reserve Police Force firing and to those killed during 2008 uprising, said Syed Ali Shah Geelani in a press conference here at his residence.
> 
> On Thursday (August 12) there will be a relaxation in shutdowns from 12pm to Nimaz Isha (5th Muslim prayer).
> 
> Hurriyat (G) has asked residents of all districts to march towards their district headquarters, elsewhere, residents of Srinagar to march towards Pathar Majid and Barzulla on Friday.
> 
> On Saturday 14 August, (Pakistans independence day) the Hurriyat (G) there will be no strike on Saturday, said Geelani.
> 
> On the occasion of Indian independence day 15 August, people should observe a complete shutdown and celebrate the day as BLACK Day said Geelani.



It's good to see that the protests are heading towards being more organized. They will be a lot more effective now.


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## Awesome

Commendable, I hope they let the new protest calendar proceed as organized.


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## Vinod2070

Good they realized the folly of the useless protests.

Kashmir is not going anywhere. They should discuss their issues with the elected civilian government in a civilized manner and not put common public to discomfort.

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## Vinod2070

If the decade long terror and ethnic cleansing was not "effective", these "protests" by traitors like this *Syed* are not going to be *effective* as well. He anyway has one leg in the grave and another on a banana peel.

The separatists back has been broken. It is their last hurrah before they fade away.

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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> Commendable, I hope they let the new protest calendar proceed as organized.



Will depend on the manner the protests are done. If they are democratic and peaceful, yes.. If not then we will have another spate of threads getting opened here I guess...

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## Iggy

Why cant this Syed Ali Shah Geelani take this campaign and quit Kashmir himself  lots of innocent people lives would have been saved by it

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## Vinod2070

karan.1970 said:


> Will depend on the manner the protests are done. If they are democratic and peaceful, yes.. *If not then we will have another spate of threads getting opened here I guess...*



Well, even a sneeze in Kashmir gets some people very excited. They start feeling Kashmir is about to fall to them. EVery suffering of Kashmiris by some separatists, terrorists and traitors increases that excitement.

Of course that excitement is short lived. They have been excited for two decades now and Kashmir remains with India and always will. If anything India is much more stronger now than earlier.

The one thing some have is *hope*. Alas that hope is only for hatred and sectarianism, not for the good of the world and humanity. Let them hope against hope while they ignore much bigger issues at home.

More Pushtuns were killed and injured in one night in Karachi over one murder of a Shia leader than all those killed in Kashmir in a week. The blame for all those killings rests with the like of that traitor *Syed*.

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## Vinod2070

seiko said:


> Why cant this Syed Ali Shah Geelani take this campaign and quit Kashmir himself  lots of innocent people lives would have been saved by it



Yes, go back to his Arab since he obviously has problems living in a secular democratic country that has saved his life countless times.

Talk of treason and ungratefulness and this idiot comes out tops. He even draws pension from the same GOI.

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## Vinod2070

Article Window

A good article by MJ Akbar. Worth reading!

Explains that Kashmir is merely a ruse for the PA (and many Pakistanis) to avenge the humiliation of 1971. They are not going to get it.


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## Awesome

Geez, don't cry. The protests have been more effective than Kargil - If the protests go on for a significant period of time, India will lose its control off Kashmir


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## Vinod2070

Yes, dream on. The terror and ethnic cleansing of Kashmir didn't do it. These sponsored protests will do squat.

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## EjazR

*Kashmir Images :: Details*

Srinagar, Aug 07: Senior separatist leader, Syed Ali Geelani&#8217;s call to agitating youth not to indulge in violence and arson is being appreciated by one and all as it has not only put a halt on unprecedented killings but has also saved public property from further destruction.

The people, cutting across political divides, hail Geelani&#8217;s call as it has suddenly brought down the graph of killings in Kashmir.
Not only this, the destruction of public property too has stopped saving the state of further loses.

In past nearly two months public properties worth more than 10 crore rupees have been destroyed by angry agitators.
People have been aghast over these destructions believing that it was their and nobody else&#8217;s loss.

In north Kashmir, the protestors gutted police station Pattan; railway station at Amagarh, Sopore; horticulture building at Kreeri; BDO office at Pattan, ITI building at Malamapanpora; forest chowki at Seelu, Panchayat Ghar at Mazbugh and Girls Middle School at Kalantra, Kreri.

And in central Kashmir, CMO office and Tehsil office at Budgam were razed to ground while as in south Frisal police post, Quimoh police post; house of an SPO; Tehsil office at Drangbal Pampore; police post Khrew and SOG camp Khrew were also torched.

Police station Rajpora; police post Reshipora; Irrigation office Khrew; State Bank of India branch Quimoh were also gutted.

The mobs also set ablaze JK Bank banch Qamarwari and Panchayat Ghar at Baghat Kanipora besides scores of government vehicles in the length and breadth of the Valley.

*Official sources said that the properties damaged are estimated to the tune of more than 10 crore rupees.**This is our property and its damage is our loss, said an elderly person from Kalantra, where some miscreants burnt down a girls school. **The people of the area took out processions against the burning of school.*
Meanwhile, Sye Ali Geelani&#8217;s call has come as a sigh of relief for pubic who don&#8217;t favour acts of arson but where left voiceless under pressure from the crowds. 
-----------------------------

Looks like the backlash against violent protestors has started.The other side is the violent protestors are actually against Geelani andeventried to attack him at one place because he called for calm and peaceful protests.


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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> Geez, don't cry. The protests have been more effective than Kargil - *If *the protests go on for a significant period of time, India will lose its control off Kashmir



That way if my aunt had b??ls, she would be my uncle.. 

Gilani has realized that with zero support from the world despite the noise about civilian deaths, the game is slipping away from the separatists and Pakistan. 

The only support that the members on this forum have been able to claim is the fake statement from UN Sec gen and a protective reaction of another official to Indian Media's ripping into the Pakistani origin official for making the fake statement in the 1st place.

Surprisingly Indian intellegentia reacted more strongly against the deaths of the rioters than rest of the world. Puts to rest Pakistan's plan to internationalize this...

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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> Kashmir Watch :: In-depth coverage on Kashmir conflict
> 
> 
> 
> It's good to see that the protests are heading towards being more organized. They will be a lot more effective now.



The strength of the protests so far was the leaderless nature of the protests and the absence of a visible political separatist agenda. 

Gilani is just trying to weasel his way back into relevance. Protests driven by the likes of Hurriyat have been much easier to handle in past.

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## Iggy

Asim Aquil said:


> Geez, don't cry. The protests have been more effective than Kargil - If the protests go on for a significant period of time, India will lose its control off Kashmir



Lolz Asim when will your country learn..you tried many things in Kashmir..its just another one and it will have the same fate as the previous ones

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## brahmastra

the source of the article got no credibility. it is known for anti-India articles. 

Vatsya, kuch naya try karo.

btw, the good news is curfew totally lifted from the Kashmir and situation is getting normalized.

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## Valiant_Soul

Vinod2070 said:


> Yes, go back to his Arab since he obviously has problems living in a secular democratic country that has saved his life countless times.
> 
> Talk of treason and ungratefulness and this idiot comes out tops. He even draws pension from the same GOI.



What does the law says about anti-India activities? It says it is a crime. So why is this traitor not behind bars and charged for indulging in anti-national activities, with all his followers?

This is where I think India shows its weakness, it has been the weakness of successive Indian governments. They cannot enforce law of the land.


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## Vinod2070

Valiant_Soul said:


> What does the law says about anti-India activities? It says it is a crime. So why is this traitor not behind bars and charged for indulging in anti-national activities, with all his followers?
> 
> This is where I think India shows its weakness, it has been the weakness of successive Indian governments. They cannot enforce law of the land.



I agree. Traitors like these need to be dealt like China deals with its Uighur separatists.

That will also likely draw applause from the Pakistani fans of China. Just an added bonus.


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## Awesome

Vinod2070 said:


> Yes, dream on. The terror and ethnic cleansing of Kashmir didn't do it. These sponsored protests will do squat.


Man Indian after Indian is rubbishing the claim that these are sponsored protests. Even your CM has admitted these are leaderless and spontaneous.

You can keep clinging to this absurdity.


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## Awesome

Q+A - What's happening in troubled Kashmir? | Reuters



> Omar Abdullah, Kashmir's chief minister, has not blamed any group in particular and says the protests were mainly leaderless.


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## gurjot

Asim Aquil said:


> Q+A - What's happening in troubled Kashmir? | Reuters



so what it will give????


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## karan.1970

Why rock the boat by arresting Gilani and giving these guys another excuse... Read Vinod's comment about grave and banana peal..

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## Valiant_Soul

karan.1970 said:


> Why rock the boat by arresting Gilani and giving these guys another excuse... Read Vinod's comment about grave and banana peal..



When the leaders are out of touch of their followers, their cause will die instantly, because this separatist movement cannot be run without effective leadership.

If you leave them to practice anti-national activities then that is a sort of encouragement to break the law and may lead to more mayhem in the society. 

Moreover, I am sure there must be someone after Gilani, ready to take up his mantle. I think India should send a strong message that no one would be allowed to indulge in anti-India activities. I am surprised they are letting people shout anti-India slogans. I do not see much difference between them and naxals, both of whom want to challenge the rule of democratically elected governments in a secular and sovereign nation.

I think they should be hammered hard with the stick of the law. They are the ones ruining the entire environment of J&K and creating mayhem for reasons that are most explicitly anti-national.


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## Fireurimagination

Probably more hardships for the common man, nothing more. The administrator should come out with an effective plan to deal with the new challenge that separatists have thrown on them

I believe the administration should make it clear that violent protesters will be dealt with a heavy hand and with time when these people realize they are hurting just themselves, they will quit being useless

And if these people believe these protest can change India's outlook on Kashmir they can enjoy their 'Alice in wonderland' world


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## Fireurimagination

Valiant_Soul said:


> When the leaders are out of touch of their followers, their cause will die instantly, because this separatist movement cannot be run without effective leadership.
> 
> If you leave them to practice anti-national activities then that is a sort of encouragement to break the law and may lead to more mayhem in the society.
> 
> Moreover, I am sure there must be someone after Gilani, ready to take up his mantle. I think India should send a strong message that no one would be allowed to indulge in anti-India activities. I am surprised they are letting people shout anti-India slogans. I do not see much difference between them and naxals, both of whom want to challenge the rule of democratically elected governments in a secular and sovereign nation.
> 
> I think they should be hammered hard with the stick of the law. They are the ones ruining the entire environment of J&K and creating mayhem for reasons that are most explicitly anti-national.



Nopes, if you take that approach you cannot take half measures, either you give it to the army, shut down the media and plainly slaughter separatists or any half measures will make them heros, yeah but I do agree with the make life hell for them part


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## hellofriends

i unable to understand why indian govt. bearing Hurriyat leaders. just kill them bcoz they are anti-indian and 98% Kashmiri is favoring of indian govt.


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## hellofriends

Asim Aquil said:


> Geez, don't cry. The protests have been more effective than Kargil - If the protests go on for a significant period of time, India will lose its control off Kashmir



it's a bad effect of democracy. where every one has right to speak and protest. some people think this type of protest is big success for them but they are wrong. indian govt is capable is suppress these protest but this is not fair for democracy. By killing Hurriyat leaders we can suppress protest but we believe in democracy not in military dictatorship.


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## Usama86

Kashmire people have a different ideology atleast those who are out there on the streets. The lesson to be learnt from these protests for our Indian friends is that regarding East Pakistan we were or atleast our leadership was living in a state of denial they thought it could be controlled and that common man is not strong enough to achieve Bangladesh, but they were proved wrong ofcouse through Indian intervention. So you guys should know from history that what lies ahead in Kashmire for you.


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## karan.1970

Usama86 said:


> Kashmire people have a different ideology atleast those who are out there on the streets. The lesson to be learnt from these protests for our Indian friends is that regarding East Pakistan we were or atleast our leadership was living in a state of denial they thought it could be controlled and that common man is not strong enough to achieve Bangladesh, but they were proved wrong ofcouse through Indian intervention. So you guys should know from history that what lies ahead in Kashmire for you.



One key difference. Pakistan can not do what India did in East Pakistan. Not atleast for the foreseeable furture. Tried in 65 and 99 and you know the result. Now the game is Nuclear.


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## Patriot

Plenty of whining here by Indian Members.I bet they're more worried now due to protests because they can't use the usual terrorism line now.


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> One key difference. Pakistan can not do what India did in East Pakistan. Not atleast for the foreseeable furture. Tried in 65 and 99 and you know the result. Now the game is Nuclear.



But Karan let me tell you an open secret. We will do it again and again until the problem is resolved. You can say many Blah Blah in reponse but we will do it again. Keep it in mind.


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## ice_man

seiko said:


> Lolz Asim when will your country learn..you tried many things in Kashmir..its just another one and it will have the same fate as the previous ones



Lolz Seiko when will your country learn...you tried many things all OVER PAKISTAN...ttp is just another and it will have same fate as previous over last 60 years!!! 


HOW DOES THAT SOUND SEIKO???


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## Iggy

ice_man said:


> Lolz Seiko when will your country learn...you tried many things all OVER PAKISTAN...ttp is just another and it will have same fate as previous over last 60 years!!!
> HOW DOES THAT SOUND SEIKO???



Sounds like Zaid Hamid  are you??


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> But Karan let me tell you an open secret. We will do it again and again until the problem is resolved. You can say many Blah Blah in reponse but we will do it again. Keep it in mind.



Sure.. And we dont have any option but to fight back.. That is fine.. I dont expect Pakistan to stop.. The only difference of opinion here Areesh, is that instead of Kashmir, we consider Pakistan a problem. 

You carry on trying to solve Kashmir problem, and we will try and solve the Pakistan problem.


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## Awesome

These protests are excellent, every other day the CM is being recalled to New Delhi - to either get a shouting or work out a new plan.

Gillani's launch of a protest calendar is excellent. People should know when and where they are needed.


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## Vinod2070

Asim Aquil said:


> Man Indian after Indian is rubbishing the claim that these are sponsored protests. Even your CM has admitted these are leaderless and spontaneous.
> 
> You can keep clinging to this absurdity.



He said that there are elements of spontaneity and elements of sponsored terrorists.

This will yield nothing that decades of terror didn't. That is the bottomline.


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> Sure.. And we dont have any option but to fight back.. That is fine.. I dont expect Pakistan to stop.. The only difference of opinion here Areesh, is that instead of Kashmir, we consider Pakistan a problem.
> 
> You carry on trying to solve Kashmir problem, and we will try and solve the Pakistan problem.



Good. That is what I want from you. Neither I want advice from you nor I am willing to dictate my perception to you. Karan understood it. Good.


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## Fireurimagination

Areesh said:


> But Karan let me tell you an open secret. We will do it again and again until the problem is resolved. You can say many Blah Blah in reponse but we will do it again. Keep it in mind.



Well you are welcome to keep trying  Past results are there for everybody to see, just compare the two countries today Economy/Society/Status, You lost half of your country, India never had and never will give away an inch of our land heck we never gave away the same when we were bankrupt do you believe we will do the same that now we are on the way to become a 2 trillion dollar economy

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## Iggy

Patriot said:


> Plenty of whining here by Indian Members.I bet they're more worried now due to protests because they can't use the usual terrorism line now.



Actually it was not us whining and opening thread about each and every movement in Kashmir..and we are not worried at all..life goes as normal in every part of my country..as i said new tactics ,same result..people will get back to their life after tired of stone throwing

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## Awesome

Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - OIC must call session on Kashmir: Mirwaiz



> Hurriyat (M) Chairman Mirwaiz Muhammad Umar Farooq Saturday urged Organization of Islamic Countries (OIC) to immediately call on a session of its Kashmir Contact Group.
> 
> Mirwaiz also expressed shock over what he said is OICs painful silence over the situation in Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> I have shot a letter to OIC General Secretary saying the silence of OIC is painful. Hurriyat has an observor status in the conglomerate and OIC should immediately call a special session of KCG and delibrate on prevailing situation in state, a press statement quoting Mirwaiz said here
> 
> The government of India, Mirwaiz said, has not only snatched the democratic and political rights but also religious rights of people of Kashmir.
> 
> Mirwaiz said, OIC is morally bound to come to the aid of Kashmiris who are under a military siege without medicines and other essential commodities adding OIC must pressurise India to resolve the long-pending Kashmir dispute according to aspirations of Kashmiris.



I know most people will think the OIC is useless, but its good, any combined condemnation by the OIC would be reprinted in newspapers world over.

So where OIC can make India do something I think it can significantly put pressure on India indirectly. Regular condemnations in brief intervals are needed from all willing allies.


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## DGMO

Vinod2070 said:


> I know of many Kashmiris who are getting educated and working all over India. You don't seem to be aware of the level of engagement of Kashmir with the rest of India.
> 
> They are already a part of India and will remain so. The only thing is left is that it sinks down to some that it is never going to change, not by terror, not by pelting stones and not by crying.
> 
> *India is not going to be split again for reasons of hatred and sectarianism. That is final. Those who can't live in a secular democracy had their chance in 1947.*


There may be that level of engagement Vinod, but I'm not talking about Kashmir as a whole, I'm talking about the Valley.

Your claim that they're already part of India is all well and good, but these eruptions of anger and mass protests don't seem to be going away.

From your side, where is it that the govt is failing? Why does the govt fail to prevent these cries for 'azaadi' and protests happening with frequency? Lots of CCS meetings take place, and shuttling back and forth from Srinagar to Delhi, but not a great deal is achieved.

And the point I touch on about the investment. From all accounts I hear of, Kashmir is doing very well. There is the development, there is the money (I believe only 6% live below the poverty line), so why is that you can't even 'bribe' them to feel part of the Union?

Hope you can clear up some of that for me.


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## parasite

Areesh said:


> But Karan let me tell you an open secret. We will do it again and again until the problem is resolved. You can say many Blah Blah in reponse but we will do it again. Keep it in mind.



I am sure you will need at least 10 yr to clear the mess you are into.......and by that time you know where INDIA will be......I guess by that time PAKISTAN will start asking for FRIENSHIP........


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## parasite

Asim Aquil said:


> These protests are excellent, every other day the CM is being recalled to New Delhi - to either get a shouting or work out a new plan.
> 
> Gillani's launch of a protest calendar is excellent. People should know when and where they are needed.



In my opinion PEACEFUL protests are completely valid......it's only the violence and damage to public property that needs to be curbed......


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## Awesome

Vinod2070 said:


> He said that there are elements of spontaneity and elements of sponsored terrorists.
> 
> This will yield nothing that decades of terror didn't. That is the bottomline.


Not elements - he said MAINLY


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## Iggy

Yea its good if the condemn but the question is are they?? as far as i know they dont care about whats happening in this area..and they dont share your value of brotherhood mate..now Hurriat has to send them letters to condemn Indian actions..so much for Umhaa


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## Awesome

parasite said:


> In my opinion PEACEFUL protests are completely valid......it's only the violence and damage to public property that needs to be curbed......


Throwing stones on Indian security forces is also valid since they are killing Kashmiris in fake encounters.


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## karan.1970

ice_man said:


> Lolz Seiko when will your country learn...you tried many things all OVER PAKISTAN...ttp is just another and it will have same fate as previous over last 60 years!!!
> 
> 
> HOW DOES THAT SOUND SEIKO???



First things first.. I dont believe India is backing TTP and am totally against promotion of terrorism to attain political objectives.

Having said that, this is how I see the last 60 years of tit-for-tat

1. Pakistan tried to capture the independent state of Kashmir in 1947, which actually led to the maharaja moving into India's fold (which he wouldnt have if Pakistan did not invade). India's intervention prevented Pakistan from capturing the key parts of the state including the capital Srinagar. 

2. Pakistan again tried to break away J&K from India in 1965 and failed

3. In 1971, looking at Pakistan's past 2 unsuccessful attempts to force a military victory, India gave a live lesson on how such a military solution be brought about. Bangladesh got created

4. Pakistan did not learn much and failed again in 1999

5. Pakistan switched from trying a force a military solution to an insurgency based solution and has been trying since 1989 to get some positive results. There have been brief spurts of success in terms of riots etc primarily fueled by the separatists. That trend however is on a downward trajectory. 

6. There are strong voices in the offices of Indian administration to pay back Pakistan in the same coin by promoting insurgency in Pakistan's areas of Balochistan, Sindh, NWFP etc. However the govt at this time feels that this is not required. The existing players (TTP, ISI, PA etc) are themselves doing a good job at this destabalization and that has contributed significantly to the things quitening down in Kashmir. But the option stays open

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## Areesh

Fireurimagination said:


> Well you are welcome to keep trying  Past results are there for everybody to see, just compare the two countries today Economy/Society/Status, You lost half of your country, India never had and never will give away an inch of our land heck we never gave away the same when we were bankrupt do you believe we will do the same that now we are on the way to become a 2 trillion dollar economy





parasite said:


> I am sure you will need at least 10 yr to clear the mess you are into.......and by that time you know where INDIA will be......I guess by that time PAKISTAN will start asking for FRIENSHIP........



This is the problem with you Indians. It is our belief. We will keep supporting Kashmiris in every manner and we will keep trying until the issue is resolved. Now it is to you indian to understand it and instead of doing blah blah keep your mouth shut. We don't want your ran about TTP, BLA, economy, aid etc etc. Just telling you about what we would do and we don't need advices from you and many other like you. Keep your advices and rants to your self please.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Areesh said:


> But Karan let me tell you an open secret. We will do it again and again until the problem is resolved. You can say many Blah Blah in reponse but we will do it again. Keep it in mind.



Thats what i love about you guys , you guys so generous 

1971,you gave us kargil
1984,you gave us Siachen
in future,probably that strategic pass(can't remember the name) responsible for making it easy for those infiltrators.

*ontopic*
Wats the point of doing all this,we all know the only way Kashmir will get its independence temporarily is by military action(that is if you can overpower the Indianmilitary presence there of course).


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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> Throwing stones on Indian security forces is also valid since they are killing Kashmiris in fake encounters.



Ah! Unlike this forum, the state of Jammu and Kashmir falls under IPC. There, the elected govt of the state will figure out whats valid and what's not.

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## parasite

Asim Aquil said:


> Throwing stones on Indian security forces is also valid since they are killing Kashmiris in fake encounters.



I condemn such incidents in strongest possible terms....and should never be done by any professional army...unfortunately such incidents have been reported in our army and has to be looked into......but I also condemn the stone pelting people.....because violence is a vicious cycle......for peace both sides have to compromise


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## Usama86

Vinod2070 said:


> I know of many Kashmiris who are getting educated and working all over India. You don't seem to be aware of the level of engagement of Kashmir with the rest of India.[/B]



You are right, but dont forget that they have to work and feed their children so it is natural for a man to look for survival in tough times. Since you shared your story i will do the same. I was a house mate with a Kashmire doctor in Melbourne. He had lived in Delhi for long time and even had his own property there. He told me that in Kasmire Indian army would plant weapons in houses of ordinary citizens and then arrest them on charges of being armed millitants. I once joked with him of how he must be fearfull of Indians and he told me that i had no idea of what fear and humilitaion was, when a man cannot protect the dignity and honour of his family it is the worst feeling to have. Long story short we all have a story but whats important is that how will the hearts and minds of the Kashmire will be changed.


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## Fireurimagination

Areesh said:


> This is the problem with you Indians. It is our belief. We will keep supporting Kashmiris in every manner and we will keep trying until the issue is resolved. Now it is to you indian to understand it and instead of doing blah blah keep your mouth shut. We don't want your ran about TTP, BLA, economy, aid etc etc. Just telling you about what we would do and we don't need advices from you and many other like you. Keep your advices and rants to your self please.



Okay sorry, keep running the show for as long as you can ............ LOL


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## parasite

Areesh said:


> This is the problem with you Indians. It is our belief. We will keep supporting Kashmiris in every manner and we will keep trying until the issue is resolved. Now it is to you indian to understand it and instead of doing blah blah keep your mouth shut. We don't want your ran about TTP, BLA, economy, aid etc etc. Just telling you about what we would do and we don't need advices from you and many other like you. Keep your advices and rants to your self please.



See if you pledge to bleed my country I reserve all the right to defend it by all manners possible right........just telling u what we will do and of course we are doing....(and sorry for the cheap language)....


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## Iggy

> The protesters wanted to exploit the situation in Jammu & Kashmir. They put the women and young boys in front of the demonstrations so that thesecurity forces don't hit back hard.



What kind of assholes put women and kids infront of demonstrations and hide behind them,some brave freedom fighters they are


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## Fireurimagination

So what if there are female separatists? Or say they are separatists' mothers or sisters? Law is supreme and will have to be with held come what may. But I do believe that female police should be employed to deal with female protesters

ps: As long as they are not violent they are well within their rights to protest


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## banned

Vinod2070 said:


> If the decade long terror and ethnic cleansing was not "effective", these "protests" by traitors like this *Syed* are not going to be *effective* as well. He anyway has one leg in the grave and another on a banana peel.
> 
> The separatists back has been broken. It is their last hurrah before they fade away.



Well so has the Israelis been saying for past 50 years about intifada. India is slowly trying to cultivate a picture of Kashmir as indian terriotery rather than disputed one.



> INTERNATIONAL MOVEMENT FOR A JUST WORLD, MALAYSIA
> Source | Kashmir - Arab News
> Kashmir
> We view with grave concern the escalating violence in Indian-controlled Kashmir.
> 
> The violence has already claimed 40 lives. The present outbreak of violence can be traced back to the killing of a 17-year-old student by a police tear gas shell on June 11, 2010. The incident led to mass protests which continues unabated. The protests are the spontaneous reaction of a segment of the Kashmiri population to decades of suppression by the Indian police and paramilitary forces. Such abuses have been documented by a number of human rights groups in India and elsewhere.
> 
> It is wrong to argue, as some Indian officials have, that the protesters are in the pay of Pakistan-backed separatists. Instead of denying reality, the Indian government, and the Kashmiri leadership that it supports, should take immediate steps to ensure that their security personnel stop using excessive force against largely unarmed protesters. Police and paramilitary forces should withdraw from heavily populated civilian areas.
> 
> When there is a semblance of law and order, the governments of India and Pakistan and the legitimate representatives of the people of Jammu and Kashmir should begin talks aimed at finding a just and durable solution to the decades old crisis. In seeking a solution, the aspirations of the people of Jammu and Kashmir should take precedence over everything else. The only solution is a fair and impartial plebiscite under international supervision.


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## Areesh

Bombensturm said:


> Thats what i love about you guys , you guys so generous
> 
> 1971,we got kargil
> 1984,we got Siachen
> in future,probably that strategic pass(can't remember the name) responsible for making it easy for those infiltrators.
> 
> *ontopic*
> Wats the point of doing all this,we all know the only way Kashmir will get its independence temporarily is by military action(that is if you can overpower the Indianmilitary presence there of course).



Hey can't you see my posts. Can't you read them. I wonder why you Indians are such a dumbas*. Anyways your post was totally pathetic.


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## Torbutton

Asim Aquil said:


> Kashmir Watch :: In-depth coverage on Kashmir conflict
> 
> 
> 
> It's good to see that the protests are heading towards being more organized. They will be a lot more effective now.



Why are you worried?
For a humanitarian cause or anti-Indian cause?


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## Vinod2070

Asim Aquil said:


> Not elements - he said MAINLY



May be. It doesn't change anything. We do have a small problem that will be dealt with.

It is nothing compared to what we have already crushed.


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## Torbutton

Areesh said:


> But Karan let me tell you an open secret. We will do it again and again until the problem is resolved. You can say many Blah Blah in reponse but we will do it again. Keep it in mind.



You will do it again and again and the history will repeat itself again and again.


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## Torbutton

karan.1970 said:


> First things first.. I dont believe India is backing TTP and am totally against promotion of terrorism to attain political objectives.
> 
> Having said that, this is how I see the last 60 years of tit-for-tat
> 
> 1. Pakistan tried to capture the independent state of Kashmir in 1947, which actually led to the maharaja moving into India's fold (which he wouldnt have if Pakistan did not invade). India's intervention prevented Pakistan from capturing the key parts of the state including the capital Srinagar.
> 
> 2. Pakistan again tried to break away J&K from India in 1965 and failed
> 
> 3. In 1971, looking at Pakistan's past 2 unsuccessful attempts to force a military victory, India gave a live lesson on how such a military solution be brought about. Bangladesh got created
> 
> 4. Pakistan did not learn much and failed again in 1999
> 
> 5. Pakistan switched from trying a force a military solution to an insurgency based solution and has been trying since 1989 to get some positive results. There have been brief spurts of success in terms of riots etc primarily fueled by the separatists. That trend however is on a downward trajectory.
> 
> 6. There are strong voices in the offices of Indian administration to pay back Pakistan in the same coin by promoting insurgency in Pakistan's areas of Balochistan, Sindh, NWFP etc. However the govt at this time feels that this is not required. The existing players (TTP, ISI, PA etc) are themselves doing a good job at this destabalization and that has contributed significantly to the things quitening down in Kashmir. But the option stays open


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## Vinod2070

DGMO said:


> There may be that level of engagement Vinod, but I'm not talking about Kashmir as a whole, I'm talking about the Valley.
> 
> Your claim that they're already part of India is all well and good, but these eruptions of anger and mass protests don't seem to be going away.
> 
> From your side, where is it that the govt is failing? Why does the govt fail to prevent these cries for 'azaadi' and protests happening with frequency? Lots of CCS meetings take place, and shuttling back and forth from Srinagar to Delhi, but not a great deal is achieved.
> 
> And the point I touch on about the investment. From all accounts I hear of, Kashmir is doing very well. There is the development, there is the money (I believe only 6% live below the poverty line), so why is that you can't even 'bribe' them to feel part of the Union?
> 
> Hope you can clear up some of that for me.



You are right. There is a problem in the valley. We need to deal with it and we have not done the best job of it so far.

There was no problem before 1989 for decades. Then we had those happenings and things came to a boil. It will take time for them to get back to normal as there is still some last momentum left from the two decades of terror. Some people seem to believe they can snatch the valley from India.

The present generation of the worst separatists like this Syed will fade away and things will be normal again as they were pre-1989.


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## Vinod2070

Usama86 said:


> You are right, but dont forget that they have to work and feed their children so it is natural for a man to look for survival in tough times. Since you shared your story i will do the same. I was a house mate with a Kashmire doctor in Melbourne. He had lived in Delhi for long time and even had his own property there. He told me that in Kasmire Indian army would plant weapons in houses of ordinary citizens and then arrest them on charges of being armed millitants. I once joked with him of how he must be fearfull of Indians and he told me that i had no idea of what fear and humilitaion was, when a man cannot protect the dignity and honour of his family it is the worst feeling to have. Long story short we all have a story but *whats important is that how will the hearts and minds of the Kashmire will be changed.*



Yes, a healing touch is needed and that can be only applied in an atmosphere free from terror and these life paralyzing "protests".

We are in it for as long as it takes.


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## Torbutton

Asim Aquil said:


> Awesome... Love their spirit. *India will not be able to handle Kashmir any more.*


OH!,India isn't technologically developed enough to handle 3 inches wide stones!

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## Torbutton

The conclusion is simple,India won't give up Kashmir,but Pakistan wants it.
So whats the future?


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## karan.1970

Status quo.. But if the trends are anything to go by, things not looking up for Pakistan...


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## Vinod2070

Torbutton said:


> The conclusion is simple,India won't give up Kashmir,but Pakistan wants it.
> So whats the future?



What is the future when a kid wants the moon?

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## gurjot

Torbutton said:


> The conclusion is simple,India won't give up Kashmir,but Pakistan wants it.
> So whats the future?



nooooo,pak will have to leave that demand sooner or later.y india supports bla??,y india is in afganistan??.this is very sasta method.
dont u look at the condition of pak frm 3-4 yrs???war started frm afganistan,it seems to have its end in pakistan.india also wants war but on the soil of pak.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

gurjot said:


> nooooo,pak will have to leave that demand sooner or later.y *india supports bla??,y india is in afganistan*??.this is very sasta method.
> dont u look at the condition of pak frm 3-4 yrs???war started frm afganistan,it seems to have its end in pakistan.india also wants war but on the soil of pak.



R u accepting india spreads terrorism in Pakistan?u support a UN and internationally banned terrorist organistion?

Go back 2-3 year u see a fast growing Pakistan... Go in future u will see tht inshallah.

I wonder wat the next Taliban govt will do?

Anyways did u know who bombed indian embassy in kabul?
Who hoisted Pakistani Flag in Assam?who supports naxalites?moaists?etc

And forget tht we will leave kashmir issue!


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## Hulk

Nice to see Vinod Posting.

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## Break the Silence

Kasmir isnt going any where!! Chill guys.... it was its it will be a state of India...

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## DESERT FIGHTER

tillu said:


> why r so many indians on this forum??
> ye saale paise kama rahe hein humare advertisements se. baad me yahi paise hume maarne k liye kaam aayenge.
> i urge all true indians to laeve this forum.
> a lot of venom is spewed against us in this forum.
> pata nai kaise sah lete hein sab indians
> itna sahte hein tabhi to hume chun chun k maarte hein ye porkistani terrorists.



MODS ban this motherfuka.


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## mjnaushad

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> MODS ban this motherfuka.


Chill dude.....Spammer.....Frustrated spammer....we deal with them everyday. 

---------- Post added at 03:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:58 PM ----------




tillu said:


> i bet ur father never dicked ur mama.
> saala haramiii


Because he was busy doing yours ....... 

Bhartis......

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## Areesh

Torbutton said:


> You will do it again and again and the history will repeat itself again and again.



Thanks for your "words of wisdom" but anyways we will do it again when ever we would get the chance.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

tillu said:


> i bet ur father never dicked ur mama.
> saala haramiii



He was doing ur sister n mama both at the same time thts why u were born.

Im my Fathers son but im HAPPY to say Ur also my fathers Bastard kid.

This piece of slum bitchh is abusing Pakistan in many threads.Ban this son of a whore.


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## dabong1

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> *before destroying India..... It would be better if you save your country first..have not you noticed..what is happening these days? *



Who said anything about destroying india?.........oh yeah thats you indians not answering the question and posting something thats totally irrelvant.


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## DGMO

Torbutton said:


> The conclusion is simple,India won't give up Kashmir,but Pakistan wants it.
> So whats the future?


No, I don't think that's the case. I don't think we simply 'want' it, and if the national mindset tilted towards that view, it does seem to have changed.

Pakistan over the past decade has witnessed innumerable problems and suffering, so much so that Kashmir doesn't have the same 'attachment' that it may have had during the 1990's.

Two key things to bear in mind:

1) Kashmir was going through turbulent times in the 90's, and we were taking full advantage of the propaganda war. How? Through state TV (PTV). With plentiful dedication to the suffering, and the *only* outlet of news, it certainly drew Pakistani's closer to the events and happenings. But what we've seen in the last decade, and most notably in the past five years is a huge swing towards private news channels. And ask yourself this, how much time are Geo and the likes running with Kashmir? May get the odd mention, but nowhere near as much as before. Therefore, it drops from the national consciousness.

2) Musharraf's peace push and national reaction - so what was Musharraf proposing? Borders can't be redrawn right? A four-point solution which you guys were slow to react to, even your commentators and analysts say so. You dragged your feet during what was the best opportunity for peace in living memory. Infiltration was down massively, if not totally, a ceasefire remained intact, and had done for years. 

However, when Musharraf moved away from the UN resolution talk, about soft borders, where was the national outcry? Were Musharraf effigies being burnt nationwide? Did the nation call him a 'traitor' and 'sell-out'? No is the answer.​
So it shows, when all *three* parties sincerely address the issue, strides can be made towards some sort of a solution.

What Musharraf's plan would've most likely witnessed is a reduction (if not total) withdrawal of security forces from the Valley, a repeal in laws considered draconian etc etc. So you have to ask yourself the question: Would the protestors still be protesting like they are today if that had happened? I personally doubt it.

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## Vinod2070

^^ You are right. India was slow in the beginning to trust Musharraf after Kargil and Agra (you can't really blame India for that!) but once we saw that sincerity, there was a lot of progress in backroom negotiation.

Then your government changed and Kayani is no longer committed to what Musharraf proposed.


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## gurjot

watevr they talk?will it affect the indian integrity??


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## DESERT FIGHTER

DGMO said:


> No, I don't think that's the case. I don't think we simply 'want' it, and if the national mindset tilted towards that view, it does seem to have changed.
> 
> Pakistan over the past decade has witnessed innumerable problems and suffering, so much so that Kashmir doesn't have the same 'attachment' that it may have had during the 1990's.
> 
> Two key things to bear in mind:
> 
> 1) Kashmir was going through turbulent times in the 90's, and we were taking full advantage of the propaganda war. How? Through state TV (PTV). With plentiful dedication to the suffering, and the *only* outlet of news, it certainly drew Pakistani's closer to the events and happenings. But what we've seen in the last decade, and most notably in the past five years is a huge swing towards private news channels. And ask yourself this, how much time are Geo and the likes running with Kashmir? May get the odd mention, but nowhere near as much as before. Therefore, it drops from the national consciousness.
> 
> 2) Musharraf's peace push and national reaction - so what was Musharraf proposing? Borders can't be redrawn right? A four-point solution which you guys were slow to react to, even your commentators and analysts say so. You dragged your feet during what was the best opportunity for peace in living memory. Infiltration was down massively, if not totally, a ceasefire remained intact, and had done for years.
> 
> However, when Musharraf moved away from the UN resolution talk, about soft borders, where was the national outcry? Were Musharraf effigies being burnt nationwide? Did the nation call him a 'traitor' and 'sell-out'? No is the answer.​
> So it shows, when *both* parties sincerely address the issue, strides can be made towards some sort of a solution.
> 
> What Musharraf's plan would've most likely witnessed is a reduction (if not total) withdrawal of security forces from the Valley, a repeal in laws considered draconian etc etc. So you have to ask yourself the question: Would the protestors still be protesting like they are today if that had happened? I personally doubt it.




Not 2 parties BUT 3 the KASHMIRIS...
Nothing without them is acceptable!


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## DGMO

Vinod2070 said:


> ^^ You are right. India was slow in the beginning to trust Musharraf after Kargil and Agra (you can't really blame India for that!) but once we saw that sincerity, there was a lot of progress in backroom negotiation.
> 
> Then your government changed and Kayani is no longer committed to what Musharraf proposed.


I think the army (and do remember, the beauty of Musharraf's plan was that he would've had the backing of the army), became entrenched in the fight against the Taliban, and so moved away from what Musharraf was dealing with.

But then it was left to the politicians to pick up where we were. But it seems for point scoring purposes, and the refusal to give Musharraf the deserved credit on Kashmir, they moved away from the four-point formula (and even failed to acknowledge it in some cases)

Unfortunately, as with Pak politics, the new administration is playing an oppourtinistic game, and can't fathom sealing a deal on Kashmir for which they'd have to credit a 'military dictator' for being the chief architect.


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## DGMO

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Not 2 parties BUT 3 the KASHMIRIS...
> Nothing without them is acceptable!


An oversight on my part, apologies. I totally agree and have changed it to relect it as so.

No solution is achieveable without all three sincerely charting the future course of that region.


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## GreenStar

Very sad Indeed, May there souls rest in peace.


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## GreenStar

> We deeply mourn the loss of innumerable young life.



Obviously you don't mourn them enough as you would not have killied them.



> We as representatives of people ourselves believe that together with positive frame of mind we can seek resolution only through open communication



Looks like they have failed in this regard......you had 20 years since 1989....yet you haven't even begun to scratch the surface in solving the problem......where was the communication then.



> History teaches us that any resolution can only be brought about through dialogue and not through violence.



That's funny.....why are there 45 people dead then...if History does teach us that dialogue is better than violence.


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## GreenStar

> Get a life buddy



Personally attacking someone is not good....if you don't like his views don't respond to him....its as simple as that.


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## GreenStar

Some of these women are very tough........brave enough to go against a security force that has no issue in regards to using the bullet....not many people would have the guts to do such things.


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## r3alist

indian men are cowards


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> Obviously you don't mourn them enough as you would not have killied them.



We mourne them because they had to die in the unnecessary violence. If they were not dead, there was no reason to mourne. 



GreenStar said:


> Looks like they have failed in this regard......you had 20 years since 1989....yet you haven't even begun to scratch the surface in solving the problem......where was the communication then.


You are kidding me.. Do you know in 2001, 4500 people died in similar violence in Kashmir. In 2009, this number was under 400. Dont be so intent on making a point that you discard the numbers. 



GreenStar said:


> That's funny.....why are there 45 people dead then...if History does teach us that dialogue is better than violence.



You should ask this to people who decided that rioting was a better option than talking..

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## gurjot

r3alist said:


> indian men are cowards



u have tested them many times


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## Vinod2070

DGMO said:


> I think the army (and do remember, the beauty of Musharraf's plan was that he would've had the backing of the army), became entrenched in the fight against the Taliban, and so moved away from what Musharraf was dealing with.
> 
> But then it was left to the politicians to pick up where we were. But it seems for point scoring purposes, and the refusal to give Musharraf the deserved credit on Kashmir, they moved away from the four-point formula (and even failed to acknowledge it in some cases)
> 
> Unfortunately, as with Pak politics, the new administration is playing an oppourtinistic game, and can't fathom sealing a deal on Kashmir for which they'd have to credit a 'military dictator' for being the chief architect.



Well, may be you are right.

The perception in India is that it is the PA that drives the core agenda of Pakistan (and that includes relations with India). So it is Kayani who sets the tone and not the civilian government.

Recently there were some articles that again credited Kayani for the recent FM talks failure. Not sure how credible they were.

Kayani is considered a hawk on India, a PA officer of the 1971 generation (meaning the officers and men who have a burning desire to avenge 1971, by severing Kashmir from India (mythical chopping off of the head). There was an article by MJ Akbar in today' TOI and a thread on that which seems to have been deleted.


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## GreenStar

> You are kidding me.. Do you know in 2001, 4500 people died in similar violence in Kashmir. In 2009, this number was under 400. Dont be so intent on making a point that you discard the numbers.




4500 is a very high figure...let me guess all of them were civilians, did any security forces die in that particular riot?

Karan the question is not how many people have died....but why is there still discontent within the Kashmiri community towards the Indian goverment......obviously India is doing something wrong....and it has not targetted the core issue in why there is a problem....failure of the goverment.


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## GreenStar

> You should ask this to people who decided that rioting was a better option than talking..




May be you should ask your security forces why they used live bullets....if they are so keen to use dialogue.

---------- Post added at 11:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 AM ----------




> We mourne them because they had to die in the unnecessary violence



They died unneccessay by your goverments guns.


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> May be you should ask your security forces why they used live bullets....if they are so keen to use dialogue.
> 
> They died unneccessay by your goverments guns.



Police dont use guns for fun..it is used when all the other measures for controlling the riots fails..Its not the police force who has to be solely blamed here nor the government..those rioters were equally responsible for it too..for me they brought it to themselves..what you want?let the government allow those rioters destroying and burning public properties and vehicles?


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## GreenStar

> Police dont use guns for fun



That is debatable because your police force would not have killied 45 people in 2010.......and 4500 people in 2001...as Karan was kind enough to tell me. Were the police that desperate that they had to kill that many people......your police force needs some serious training in controlling the crowd.....because that is truly pathetic that they need to use the gun as a last resort....all the time.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> 4500 is a very high figure...let me guess all of them were civilians, did any security forces die in that particular riot?
> 
> Karan the question is not how many people have died....but why is there still discontent within the Kashmiri community towards the Indian goverment......obviously India is doing something wrong....and it has not targetted the core issue in why there is a problem....failure of the goverment.









@GS, you yourself said that the IRA issue took close to 80 years to solve.. These things dont go away over night. 20 years seem to be a large number and I would have been worried if the positive trend was not so stark. See what has happened in 20 years is that Pakistan's relative (to India) ability to forment trouble in Kashmir has gone down significantly due to increase in India's diplomatic and economic condition and Pakistan's own internal problems (see the attached similar trend for Pakistan below)






This has allowed India to make substantial progress on the Kashmir side and the level of unrest is nowhere near what it was towards the end of last century. And the incidents like these are few and far between. Shouldnt they be zero?? Sure...but for now 90% reduction in last 10 years will have to do..

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## GreenStar

> let the government allow those rioters destroying and burning public properties and vehicles?



What is the total number of Paramilitary troops and police force you have in Kashmir?


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> That is debatable because your police force would not have killied 45 people in 2010.......and 4500 people in 2001...as Karan was kind enough to tell me. Were the police that desperate that they had to kill that many people......your police force needs some serious training in controlling the crowd.....because that is truly pathetic that they need to use the gun as a last resort....all the time.



Those 4500 included police personal ,civilians and terrorists ..look at the chart below and how it is lowering..and it would be also debatable for what action did police start at shooting them..You keep on telling 45 peoples killed by police like police went each and every ones homes and killed them..they were rioting and police tried to control them but it was in vein and when the riot turned violent police has to shoot.. 




[/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]


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## Ganga

ice_man said:


> you are so dead!! everyone will jump you now! cuz you asked for it! wait for the wrath of JANA!
> 
> but for your knowledge *WOMEN IN PAKISTAN are more liberated and free compared to india!* be it military or politics or any other field of work! as for protests well in our country it seems women protest way more than anywhere!! be it PML(N) ki PUNJABAAN's or JINNAH hospital's nurses or be it (MY FAVOURITE) MARVI MEMON!



I doubt it.


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## karan.1970

Vinod2070 said:


> There was an article by MJ Akbar in today' TOI and a thread on that which seems to have been deleted.



Oh! Didnt notice that was deleted.. Any reason given for the deletion???


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## GreenStar

in the last 9 years over 4257 civilians have died...due to your security forces killing them...that is alot.......you seem to be defending your goverments actions..when clearly it has blood on its hands.Yes the figure has gone down....but nevertheless they are still dieing.....just because they are raising there voice........if that is the case...should all the Indians living in Malaysia be put to death....just because they are voicing for more right.


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## Vinod2070

karan.1970 said:


> Oh! Didnt notice that was deleted.. Any reason given for the deletion???



No idea. I just don't see that thread anymore.


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## DGMO

Vinod2070 said:


> The perception in India is that it is the PA that drives the core agenda of Pakistan (and that includes relations with India). So it is Kayani who sets the tone and not the civilian government.


It's not a perception, it has some foundation to it.

Again, I come back to what Kayani had to deal with in 2008 for him to forget about Kashmir: 

_An ever more encroaching and confident enemy in the Pak Taliban, worsening conditions along the Pak-Afghan border, the arrival of Obama and the new 'Af-P@k / Holbrooke' dimension with renewed pressure on the PA.​_So Kashmir, from his point of view, and given the relative calm on the Eastern front correctly took a back seat to a more pressing issue on the Western border.

I don't think he's a hawk. I've never heard the guy speak! But being DG-ISI, and next in line for COAS, I'm sure Musharraf sat down with him over Kashmir, and had Kayani's buy-in.

As I said, it's upto the politicians to get us to the peace table, but don't forget that obstacles like Mumbai have impeded that. Pakistan needs to help India as much as possible with the Mumbai case, for India to witness sincerity on our part. 

Once Mumbai as a chapter is closed from a judicial standpoint, then we can move to Kashmir, and I'm sure that will be with Kayani's blessings.

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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> in the last 9 years over 4257 civilians have died...due to your security forces killing them...that is alot.......you seem to be defending your goverments actions..when clearly it has blood on its hands.Yes the figure has gone down....but nevertheless they are still dieing.....just because they are raising there voice........if that is the case...should all the Indians living in Malaysia be put to death....just because they are voicing for more right.



Who said only the security persons are killing them??most of them are killed in the cross fire between terrorists and security forces and militants also killed many of them..you are only seeing one side of the story here ..


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## GreenStar

> You keep on telling 45 peoples killed by police like police went each and every ones homes and killed them..



Maybe they did not go to there houses....but they were still killied by your police..for voicing there objection to Indian rule.


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## Vinod2070

banned said:


> Well so has the Israelis been saying for past 50 years about intifada. *India is slowly trying to cultivate a picture of Kashmir as indian terriotery *rather than disputed one.



Not slowly!

That has been the Indian position for at least the last half century if not more. No more divisions of India in the name of narrow sectarianism and hatreds. Those who have a problem living in a secular, multi religious democracy should close the door after them.


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> Maybe they did not go to there houses....but they were still killied by your police..for voicing there objection to Indian rule.



Well they were protesting before too ..lot of times ,but police didnt shoot at them..Its only when ever it turned violent police has to shoot at them..


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## GreenStar

no one answered my question how many paramiltary troops and police do you have in Kashmir.


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## DGMO

ice_man said:


> :but for your knowledge WOMEN IN PAKISTAN are more liberated and free compared to india!


I'd disagree, and I've been to India to say that.

What is noticeable comparing both countries is the lack of women out in urban centres. And also, if you ask a Pakistani female, she'll tell you how much more comfortable she felt walking in an Indian city, away from the leering Pakistani men you encounter when in Pakistan. Big standout difference.

Don't get wound up, it's just the truth.


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## GreenStar

> Well they were objecting before too ..lot of times ,but police didnt shoot at them..Its only when ever it turned violent police has to shoot at them.



If they are objecting shouldn't you listen to them....or are you trying to rule over them with an iron rod.


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## GreenStar

So far no militants have killied any civilians during this protest....its by the hands of your goverment......that could not bother to train it police force to counter such problems....your goverment has been very inept regards to handling public disorder.


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## Vinod2070

You can read the article at:

A valley riven by anger & history : World : M J Akbar : TOI Blogs

An excerpt:



> General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, the chief, was commissioned in August 1971. The other four-star general in the Pakistan army, Tariq Majeed, is due to retire on October 7, which makes him an exact contemporary. Lt Gen Khalid Shameem Wyne, chief of general staff, will lay down his baton on March 8 next year and is consequently just a few months junior. Lt Gen Syed Absar Hussain, who is in charge of Army Strategic Forces, was at the Command and Staff College in Quetta in 1971. He got his artillery commission in April 1972. Lt Gen Ahmad Shuja Pasha, director-general of the ISI, is already on extension, so is of Kayani's age. Lt Gen Javed Zia, head of Southern Command, Quetta, Lt Gen Muhammad Mustafa Khan, commanding 1 Corps, and Lt Gen Shahid Iqbal of V Corps are retiring either this year or next.
> 
> *What do the men at the top of Pakistan's army have in common? They are officers of the "traumatized generation". Each joined an army that had been humiliated in the 1971 war, which ended not only in the gut-wrenching surrender of more than 90,000 troops to an Indian general, but the partition of Pakistan and the reinvention of the East as Bangladesh. The only war that Kayani has fought, barring recent civil wars of course, is the game-changing 1971 conflict.
> 
> His generation, still burning with an adolescent heartache that can never quite heal, has had a silent, consuming mission: revenge for Bangladesh through Kashmir, preferably within its career span or at least in its lifetime. The tortured angst of zealots is even more acute because in their fevered imagination, a "Muslim" army on jihad had been disgraced by a "Hindu" force. If the status of Kashmir changes in the next five years, this generation will have realized its religio-nationalist fantasy.*



I have always admired this guy's ability to cut to the quick and get to the core of the issue precisely.


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> If they are objecting shouldn't you listen to them....or are you trying to rule over them with an iron rod.



Why should me listen to some people who is a stooge(courtesy idune) of another country..they are objecting and want freedom in the name of religion..there are plenty of them out there who wanted to be with India..No one is stopping anyone to move to any country they want if they dont want to be under India..India is not going to be divided again in the name of religion or what ever cause.its plain and simple as that..I am sure that other countries can accommodate them since they are very much worried about their brothers..


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> Maybe they did not go to there houses....but they were still killied by your police..for voicing there objection to Indian rule.



In any country, violent objection to the rule of the country's govt amounts to treason. The only difference here is that these people are pawns of separatist forces who are the real culprits and hence the effort (acknowledged or not) of the GOI to minimize these casualties..


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> in the last 9 years over 4257 civilians have died...due to your security forces killing them...that is alot.......you seem to be defending your goverments actions..when clearly it has blood on its hands.Yes the figure has gone down....but nevertheless they are still dieing.....just because they are raising there voice........if that is the case...should all the Indians living in Malaysia be put to death....just because they are voicing for more right.



I see you changed your post from a question on number of sec forces to this pronouncement. 

Anyway, past is what it is... I give marks to GoI for the improvement we see. I know it hurts some people of Pakistan( in Pakistan or outside) to see their 20 year old effort going down the drain, but its inevietable. 

Indians in Malaysia are not asking for a separate state to break away from Malaysia. Now you are treading the line of absurdness..

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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> So far no militants have killied any civilians during this protest....its by the hands of your goverment..


those 4500 figure are not from this riot..I was answering to your question that 4500 civilians has been killed by security personals..you are now mixing both ...



> that could not bother to train it police force to counter such problems....your goverment has been very inept regards to handling public disorder.



Dude as i said you are only seeing the one side of the story..Kashmiri police has been trained for COIN operations because Kashmir was suffered due to long terrorists attacks..its now the tactics has been changed because police was able to stop terrorism to a good amount..


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## r3alist

> this generation will have realized its religio-nationalist fantasy.



indians are always insistent on making it a religious issue and making anything to do with pakistan to do with jihadist islam - well what if i am a secularist AND support kashmiri liberation from india - well according to the reductionist indians such a thing is not possible

so islam islam islam islam is what its all about

i could rewrite some of the above as




> The tortured angst of hindu zealots is even more acute because in their fevered imagination, a hindu civilisation had been conquered and ruled by muslims, their lands had been lost, their manhood and pride had been hurt and they hold this resentment deep in their hearts from generation to generation, because pakistan is a constant reminder of this, hence the reason for their never ending hatred of pakistan



you see, it works both ways.....


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## Spring Onion

gurjot said:


> so what it will give????



More tears to already crying Indian terrorist invaders. more courage to the innocent Kashmiris.

*
"Indian/bharti terrorist army bring on bullets we are not afraid of death: Kashmiris"*


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## Iggy

Jana said:


> More tears to already crying Indian terrorist invaders. more courage to the innocent Kashmiris.
> 
> *
> "Indian/bharti terrorist army bring on bullets we are not afraid of death: Kashmiris"*



Why are keep posting the same line agains and again dear..is this some sort of making yourself comfortable?? sad to see India lifted the curfew??


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## GreenStar

> Why should me listen to some people who is a stooge(courtesy idune) of another country..they are objecting and want freedom in the name of religion..there are plenty of them out there who wanted to be with India



Wow the vast majority of Kashmiri's don't want to be with India...so essentially you are holding them hostage.....if they raise there voice you will kill them.....what a wonderful country India is.....it preaches to be a peaceful democratic country...yet it uses violence to contain those that do not like its rule......so base upon your assumption should all Indians in Malaysia be put to death because they are voicing there opinion.


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## GreenStar

I only wanted to know how many security forces you have to have a picture....if your numbers are low that you contain a protests.


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## gurjot

Jana said:


> More tears to already crying Indian terrorist invaders. more courage to the innocent Kashmiris.
> 
> *
> "Indian/bharti terrorist army bring on bullets we are not afraid of death: Kashmiris"*



let c


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## GreenStar

I never said that 4500 deaths of civilians our from this riot....I was merely saying that the people who have died in this protests is from the hands of your goverement.


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## Ganga

GreenStar said:


> Wow the vast majority of Kashmiri's don't want to be with India...so essentially you are holding them hostage*.....if they raise there voice you will kill them*.....what a wonderful country India is.....it preaches to be a peaceful democratic country...yet it uses violence to contain those that do not like its rule......so base upon your assumption should all Indians in Malaysia be put to death because they are voicing there opinion.



No one is stoping them from raising their voice.They can come to the streets and protest.The internet is not blocked.They can load videos, write on international blogs.Both the Indian and the international press is allowed in the region.But if they get violent and start pelting stones then do not expect us to be so gentle.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Areesh said:


> Hey can't you see my posts. Can't you read them. I wonder why you Indians are such a dumbas*. Anyways your post was totally pathetic.



I'm sorry,i seem to have overestimated your perception capabilities,carry on


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## GreenStar

> Indians in Malaysia are not asking for a separate state to break away from Malaysia. Now you are treading the line of absurdness..



But I never said that Indians in Malaysia are asking for a separate state.......I just said that should they be killed because they are voicing there opinion for more rights.......just like the Kashmiri's are doing the same.


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> Wow the vast majority of Kashmiri's don't want to be with India...so essentially you are holding them hostage.....if they raise there voice you will kill them.....what a wonderful country India is.....it preaches to be a peaceful democratic country...yet it uses violence to contain those that do not like its rule......so base upon your assumption should all Indians in Malaysia be put to death because they are voicing there opinion.



Karan told you earlier Indians in Malaysia is not voicing for separate country ..you are now talking nonsense here..Protests like malasia can be seen in every part of the world..its offtopic leave it..

As i told you they are entitled to share their voice just like every other countrymen in my country..There are protests happening in every state for different reasons..no body is stopping them..Kashmir is not the first place curfew is imposed ..

Being a peaceful democratic country doesnt mean that we should divide our country to every tom dick and harry who is crying for freedom. and we never stopped them from leaving our country if they dont want to be under India's rule...Those who care for the brave "freedom fighters" will accommodate them..Those who wanted to live in India should obey the rules of my country..India is not going to give a single peace of land to any body ..


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## GreenStar

> .Kashmiri police has been trained for COIN operations because Kashmir was suffered due to long terrorists attacks..its now the tactics has been changed because police was able to stop terrorism to a good amount..



That is not the fault of the Kashmiri people that your goverment has been inept in funding the Police force....in controlling public order....and that it has no real training in this field


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## Break the Silence

> 38 young MPs write to the youth of Kashmir



THIS IS THE TOPIC


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> I never said that 4500 deaths of civilians our from this riot....I was merely saying that the people who have died in this protests is from the hands of your goverement.



Now you are just trolling here..already told you those people are killed because riot was turned violent and police has no other choice but to fire at them..dont run around in circles..move on ..


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## GreenStar

> Karan told you earlier Indians in Malaysia is not voicing for separate country ..you are now talking nonsense here..Protests like malasia can be seen in every part of the world..its offtopic leave it..



Read my post regarding this issue


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## afriend

I think we should put the kashmir valley.. for plebiscite but keep jammu and ladakh out of the equation, bahut ho gaya. These power hungry basterds will instigate violance, even if kashmiris try to protest peacefully these holes go in and fire at security forces forcing them to retaliate resulting in the loss of innocent lives. 

Or atleast kashmir valley should be given complete autonomy with only defence and forgien affairs indian obligation.


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> Read my post regarding this issue



Read the rest of my posts..its happening every where including many states in my country..police only shoot at people if the mob turned violent and police cant handle them anymore..


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> That is not the fault of the Kashmiri people that your goverment has been inept in funding the Police force....in controlling public order....and that it has no real training in this field



So destroying public property and burning around shops and vehicles are not the fault of Kashmiri people ??some logic you have


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## GreenStar

> Now you are just trolling here..already told you those people are killed because riot was turned violent and police has no other choice but to fire at them..dont run around in circles..move on ..



I am not trolling this is my opinion...if you can't except then tough.....I see what I believe...is it not fact that 45 people have died....by the hands of your security forces. And I am not running around in circles....its my opinion.....I am not personally attacking you...so chill.


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## GreenStar

> Read the rest of my posts..its happening every where including many states in my country..police only shoot at people if the mob turned violent and police cant handle them anymore..



Buy rubber bullets then.....or better water gun tanks....your goveremnt has failed....its not the peoples fault that your goverement has bbeen inept in this department.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

afriend said:


> *I think we should put the kashmir valley.. for plebiscite but keep jammu and ladakh out of the equation, bahut ho gaya. These power hungry basterds will instigate violance*, even if kashmiris try to protest peacefully these holes go in and fire at security forces forcing them to retaliate resulting in the loss of innocent lives.
> 
> Or atleast kashmir valley should be given complete autonomy with only defence and forgien affairs indian obligation.



So peaceful above can be said for occupyin indian forces too.


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> I am not trolling this is my opinion...if you can't except then tough.....I see what I believe...is it not fact that 45 people have died....by the hands of your security forces. And I am not running around in circles....its my opinion.....I am not personally attacking you...so chill.



yes you shared your view but whats the use of keep on saying it ??its only help you increase your post count other than i dont see any purpose..for me its seems you are going on circles and i am taking a ride with you..so


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## Spring Onion

afriend said:


> I think we should put the kashmir valley.. for plebiscite but keep jammu and ladakh out of the equation, bahut ho gaya. These power hungry basterds will instigate violance, even if kashmiris try to protest peacefully these holes go in and fire at security forces forcing them to retaliate resulting in the loss of innocent lives.
> 
> Or atleast kashmir valley should be given complete autonomy with only defence and forgien affairs indian obligation.




Why to keep Jammu and Ladakh of the equation after all bhartis are so much confident they will join bharat so you should not be worried over these two areas.


And if the protesting Kashmiris were only power hungry then they would have accepted Indian rule and would have ruled Indian Occupied J&K as Governors just like those traitors Omar and Farooq abdullah


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## Ganga

Greenstar i think u just want to write something against India.U r writing the same thing again and again and again in different threads.


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## GreenStar

> So destroying public property and burning around shops and vehicles are not the fault of Kashmiri people



Well what Kashmir people have done is wrong too..however lets do the maths....however many civilains have died 45...how many security forces have died 0......tsk what a shammbolic case.


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## gurjot

Jana said:


> Why to keep Jammu and Ladakh of the equation after all bhartis are so much confident they will join bharat so you should not be worried over these two areas.
> 
> 
> And if the protesting Kashmiris were only power hungry then they would have accepted Indian rule and would have ruled Indian Occupied J&K as Governors just like those traitors Omar and Farooq abdullah


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## akbarsyed

hi everyone . i am new to this forum . been hearing a lot about kashmir these days . i dont know wots wrong with these people . why do they want to join a unstable , underdeveloped country with virtually no future . there are millions of other muslims living in india in absolute freedom and prosperity . may almighty allah give them enuff sense .

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## GreenStar

> Greenstar i think u just want to write something against India.U r writing the same thing again and again and again in different threads



Well its my opinion ganga..what is your point...we come to a public forum to debate....and that is what I am doing.


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## GreenStar

> yes you shared your view but whats the use of keep on saying it ??its only help you increase your post count other than i dont see any purpose..for me its seems you are going on circles and i am taking a ride with you..so



Fair enough Thta is your opinion..not going to hold it against you.


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## gurjot

akbarsyed said:


> hi everyone . i am new to this forum . been hearing a lot about kashmir these days . i dont know wots wrong with these people . why do they want to join a unstable , underdeveloped country with virtually no future . there are millions of other muslims living in india in absolute freedom and prosperity . may almighty allah give them enuff sense .



let's enjoy the integrity.


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## r3alist

> hi everyone . i am new to this forum . been hearing a lot about kashmir these days . i dont know wots wrong with these people . why do they want to join a unstable , underdeveloped country with virtually no future . there are millions of other muslims living in india in absolute freedom and prosperity




why they want to is not your concern, you dont care about them do you?

that they want to is the reality

well done on their spirited protests, long may it continue until they get what they want, whatever that is.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

akbarsyed said:


> hi everyone . i am new to this forum . been hearing a lot about kashmir these days . i dont know *wots* wrong with these people . why do they want to join a *unstable , underdeveloped country with virtually no future* . there are millions of other muslims living in india in absolute freedom and prosperity . may almighty allah give them *enuff sense *.



Hi,

Welcome on PAK DEF FORUM
Hope u get banned soon.
Unstable if it means terrorism yes okay.
*Under developed*?
Looks like ur feed on B.S by maha shytty indian media.Tht karachi looks like kabul!
*No future?*
One of the BIGGEST massive reserves in the world!! coal,oil,gas reserves ,minerals,semi precious stones,salt,,one of the fastest growing economies till 2008(stalled coz of terrorism).Lots of good stuff!!

May God give u ENOUGH(correct spellings) sense to see the barbarity of indian occupying army and BLOOD STAINED STRUGGLE OF THE BRAVE PEOPLE OF KASHMIR.


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## GreenStar

> i dont know wots wrong with these people . why do they want to join a unstable , underdeveloped country with virtually no future



That is for them to decide....its there opinion....Just how the Palestinians want there own separate land.


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## Vinod2070

r3alist said:


> indians are always insistent on making it a religious issue and making anything to do with pakistan to do with jihadist islam - well what if i am a secularist AND support kashmiri liberation from india - well according to the reductionist indians such a thing is not possible
> 
> so islam islam islam islam is what its all about



Well, the shoe is on the other foot.

It is Pakistan which made it a religious issue. Their whole basis for asking Kashmir is all about religion. It is Pakistan which raises it in OIC as an Islamic issue and it is Pakistan which sent Islamic terrorists to snatch it from India.



> i could rewrite some of the above as
> 
> you see, it works both ways.....



You could and it may not be entirely wrong. There may well be resentment in some people and it would be genuine for them to have it.

That chapter of atrocities has not been closed. There has been no apology forthcoming to close it and so it remains an open wound. India has chosen to be a secular democracy and Muslims are equal citizens. But that resentment may break forth at some time in future unless the Islamic world is sagacious enough to try and close that chapter of brutality.

Right now they seem to be celebrating it and making those people their heroes.


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## gurjot

GreenStar said:


> That is for them to decide....its there opinion....Just how the Palestinians want there own separate land.



u can say this only if indian territory is not affected.those who wants to join with pakistan can migrate to pakistan.

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## r3alist

gurjot said:


> u can say this only if indian territory is not affected.those who wants to join with pakistan can migrate to pakistan.



why should they, its their land?

you indians can get lost back to your india and leave the kashmiri's in kashmir


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## ice_man

DGMO said:


> I'd disagree, and I've been to India to say that.
> 
> What is noticeable comparing both countries is the lack of women out in urban centres. And also, if you ask a Pakistani female, she'll tell you how much more comfortable she felt walking in an Indian city, away from the leering Pakistani men you encounter when in Pakistan. Big standout difference.
> 
> Don't get wound up, it's just the truth.



you sir have NO idea about karachi,lahore specially the YOUNG WOMEN of this generation nowadays! you don't know anything about how liberated our women in villages are compared to indians in villages! but its ok your opinon on this forum i totally disregard after having a debate with you earlier on a topic! so even writing this feels like a waste of time but you addressed me so i had to reply!


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## gurjot

r3alist said:


> why should they, its their land?
> 
> you indians can get lost back to your india and leave the kashmiri's in kashmir



implement this to b4 1947 condition,to baluchistan,tibet etc.u will know how u will give them freedom.


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## r3alist

gurjot said:


> implement this to b4 1947 condition,to baluchistan,tibet etc.u will know how u will give them freedom.



implement universal human rights, you hypocrite.

maybe one day your people will be occupied...


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## ice_man

Vinod2070 said:


> Well, may be you are right.
> 
> The perception in India is that it is the PA that drives the core agenda of Pakistan (and that includes relations with India). So it is Kayani who sets the tone and not the civilian government.
> 
> Recently there were some articles that again credited Kayani for the recent FM talks failure. Not sure how credible they were.
> 
> Kayani is considered a hawk on India, a PA officer of the 1971 generation (meaning the officers and men who have a burning desire to avenge 1971, by severing Kashmir from India (mythical chopping off of the head). There was an article by MJ Akbar in today' TOI and a thread on that which seems to have been deleted.



kashmir would have been solved by now if india had acted sanely after mumbai attacks!! speaking of surgical strikes did piss of our nation! and ofcourse our military & its leadership. 

it is apparent from this video:







india lacked the will during musharraf's tenure to resolve kashmir & after 2008 it destroyed any hope of Confidence Building Measures on kashmir!


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## r3alist




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## Iggy

^^^

These are not Kashmiries..dont post offtopic pitures here..


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## gubbi

r3alist said:


> indians are always insistent on making it a religious issue and making anything to do with pakistan to do with jihadist islam - well what if i am a secularist AND support kashmiri liberation from india - well according to the reductionist indians such a thing is not possible
> 
> so islam islam islam islam is what its all about
> 
> i could rewrite some of the above as
> 
> 
> 
> The tortured angst of hindu zealots is even more acute because in their fevered imagination, a hindu civilisation had been conquered and ruled by muslims, their lands had been lost, their manhood and pride had been hurt and they hold this resentment deep in their hearts from generation to generation, because pakistan is a constant reminder of this, hence the reason for their never ending hatred of pakistan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you see, it works both ways.....
Click to expand...


No it doesn't work both ways. Its you people, Pakistanis, who gave everything a religious connotation, be it the Kashmir issue or Indo-Pak relations or even the work of NATO in Afghanistan. There is no secular who supports Kashmiri "liberation from tyrannical Indian Army". It just doesnt work that way. 

The oft repeated favorite quote - "The Indian Army is a 'Hindu force' ruling with an iron hand over Muslim Kashmir" - is absurd to say the least. Its conveniently ignored that these very followers of Islam indoctrinated by a religious pseudo-nationalist ideology and provided with AK-47s drove out the original Kashmiri Pundits - who co-incidentally were the first to raise their voices for Kashmiri independence. Its was your pride which was hurt, as M.J.Akbar so nicely puts it, because a Muslim Jihadi army had been vanquished by a Hindu Force which was very secular. The pride of a martial race been subdued by a weakling pagan force! How did this ever happen, right?

And as your views that India was ruled by Muslims for hundreds of years (what may be ~500 years in its 10,000 year history) and created a country out of 'Hindu" entity is the reason for animosity? In that case India should have the very issues with Sri Lanka, BD, Burma, Nepal, Afghanistan etc, that Pakistanis have with India. Your argumnt doesnt stand.

The resentment lies NOT with us, but with you. India doesn't survive on a anti-Pakistan or anti-Muslim rhetoric. Now lets see you prove this is also true for Pakistan.

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## SHHHHH

Kashmir is India's.
Be it anything.
Pakistan wants it?They can give it a try,everyone knows what happened in the past.


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## Vinod2070

ice_man said:


> kashmir would have been solved by now if india had acted sanely after mumbai attacks!! speaking of surgical strikes did piss of our nation! and ofcourse our military & its leadership.
> 
> it is apparent from this video:
> 
> YouTube - &#x202a;Gen Musharraf's reply to Indian journalist's idiotic question&#x202c;&lrm;



You are *pissed off *by the mere talk of surgical strikes and you expect India to take the massacre by Pakistani terrorists lying down!

Those were insane attacks and few in India are/were convinced that they were totally without some measure of official support.



> india lacked the will during musharraf's tenure to resolve kashmir & after 2008 it destroyed any hope of Confidence Building Measures on kashmir!



If it helps you to sleep better by blaming India, I won't stop you. It is Pakistan which is not ready to implement what had been agreed.

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## r3alist

> There is no secular who supports Kashmiri "liberation from tyrannical Indian Army". It just doesnt work that way.



rubbish, desire not to be raped and oppressed somehow does not figure into your thinking

you think by shouting muslim muslim muslim will cover everything

how about not having some indian coward hyena soldier in kashmir preying on innocents, look at what you justifying, where are the rights of these women



> The resentment lies NOT with us, but with you.



yes, there is resentment, for indian actions of rape, torture and murder

accept this and we can talk from a basis of mutual respect, until this the struggle continues.....


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## afriend

Jana said:


> Why to keep Jammu and Ladakh of the equation after all bhartis are so much confident they will join bharat so you should not be worried over these two areas.
> 
> 
> And if the protesting Kashmiris were only power hungry then they would have accepted Indian rule and would have ruled Indian Occupied J&K as Governors just like those traitors Omar and Farooq abdullah



Jana Ji, i am not talking about peacefully protesting kashmiris, or the common kashmiri. But the seperatists, who are not killed only because of the constitution of india, who hide behind it and instigate viloance and turn peaceful protest into a violent one.

What benifit woudl india get by killing people, except the wrath of the people. Even with a guy with peanut size brain can understand that. Only people who gain from this violance is these seperatists. And i am callin them the power hungry.

And my comments are coming from the frustation of seeing kashmir on boil every day. As such i do not want a plebsicte in kashmir under the umberlla of violance.


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## r3alist

seiko said:


> ^^^
> 
> These are not Kashmiries..dont post offtopic pitures here..



this thread is about the actions of the indian rapist army, its a widespread disease

what type of men rape do this, i tell you who, these guys

Indian army finds inflatable answer to low morale - Telegraph


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## Vinod2070

r3alist said:


> this thread is about the actions of the indian rapist army, its a widespread disease
> 
> *what type of men rape do this*, i tell you who, these guys
> 
> Indian army finds inflatable answer to low morale - Telegraph



Checkout the 200,000 rapes by your brave Pakistani army in 1971. The same one that lifted their hands in the air at the first sight of IA.

Your obsession with the size of the male organ is also typical. I do have a theory for that obsession but won't share it now.


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## gubbi

r3alist said:


>



Dude, a few morons who work for IA carry out atrocious acts and you blame the whole Indian Armed forces for that? What an idiotic view! 

In that case, since a few 'non state' actors from Pakistan are terrorists, so by extrapolation all the Pakistanis can be considered as terrorists? The acts of few don't define a people or institution.

Next time anyone calls IA as a raping pillaging institution, I shall also extrapolate a thinking to a people or institution. I will post this very argument before saying that.

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## SHHHHH

r3alist said:


> this thread is about the actions of the indian rapist army, its a widespread disease
> 
> what type of men rape do this, i tell you who, these guys
> 
> Indian army finds inflatable answer to low morale - Telegraph



Indian rapist army,Indian terrorist army,Indian tyrannical army etc.
I had love to mention,Indian strong army,which defeated Pakistan ,cause:Kashmir.


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## r3alist

gubbi said:


> Dude, a few morons who work for IA carry out atrocious acts and you blame the whole Indian Armed forces for that? What an idiotic view!
> 
> In that case, since a few 'non state' actors from Pakistan are terrorists, so by extrapolation all the Pakistanis can be considered as terrorists? The acts of few don't define a people or institution.
> 
> Next time anyone calls IA as a raping pillaging institution, I shall also extrapolate a thinking to a people or institution. I will post this very argument before saying that.



a few morons - i wish it was

the number of incidents in relation to the the number of convictions just shows what hypocrites and cowards you are, completely pathetic that you glaze over the violence yet scream democratic ideals on another thread, accept your wrong doings, i hope this struggle continues, these women are brave and strong, facing up to cowards


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## gubbi

r3alist said:


> rubbish, desire not to be raped and oppressed somehow does not figure into your thinking
> 
> you think by shouting muslim muslim muslim will cover everything
> 
> how about not having some indian coward hyena soldier in kashmir preying on innocents, look at what you justifying, where are the rights of these women



Dont worry about rights of women in India. Look at your own house and rights of women in Sharia law and the manner those laws are implemented. Dont get me started.

Any protesting mob which goes out of control and resorts to acts of violence against public property and govt. assests will be subjected to roit control measures which can and do go to extreme measures. 

A mob has no leaders, only instigators. A mob has no control but a mind of its own and unless its dispersed asap, they inadvertently turn violent. Firing live ammunition into the mob is the last resort of any LEO. If you dont understand the ROEs then I am sorry for your ignorance.

Protesters, is they get violent and start destroying public and govt property, deserve what they get. Thats just my opinion.



> yes, there is resentment, for indian actions of rape, torture and murder
> accept this and we can talk from a basis of mutual respect, until this the struggle continues.....


read again what I posted. I clearly implied that the resentment is because of a sense of frustration due to lack of prosperity and many other factors facing you people which is then conveniently directed against the pagan Hindus by vested interests in your nation.


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## magg

> why should they, its their land?
> 
> you indians can get lost back to your india and leave the kashmiri's in kashmir



That is what India wants to tell these protesters "That Kashmir is their Land". But these people like Syed Gilani and Mirwaiz Farukh don't understand this fact. Very recently these guys expressed the desire to make China a part of the discussion on kashmir. When these people were asked that China holds a third of land occupied by Pak in 47', their response was that the land is barren and no one lives there. So going by their sophist logic any such kashmiri land that is not occupied or barren should be gifted to others cause it doesn't make any significant impact on Kashmiris.

These guys are just playing the psychological warfare to lead young kashmiris to death on the instructions of their paskistani masters. Their statements defies logic and are contrary most times. When Pakistan blew the constitution of held-kashmir to hell during the kargil war, these guys didn't say a word. When Pak annexed GB as it's province, these guys were shut. 

They are just taking the advantages of India's liberal democracy. Had they been to Xinxiang or Tibet or Baluchistan, they would have known that the pro-freedom guys are killed in daylight and nobody could do anything. Recently 2 bullet riddled bodies were found in Balochistan, and they belonged to persons abducted by the Pak state for their pro-freedom stance. In 2008 lhasa riots many hundreds were shoot dead without airing their grievances. In Xinxiang during the needle attacks many state sponsored attacks by hans took place on the natives.

Moreover Pak is even changing the local complexion of population in occupied kashmir by implanting the punjabis there. Many areas which had upto 90&#37; shias now have upto 60% sunnis. Atleast India is not doing any such thing as also making sure that the human rights of kashmiris are upheld.


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## r3alist

gubbi said:


> Dont worry about rights of women in India. Look at your own house and rights of women in Sharia law and the manner those laws are implemented. Dont get me started.
> 
> Any protesting mob which goes out of control and resorts to acts of violence against public property and govt. assests will be subjected to roit control measures which can and do go to extreme measures.
> 
> A mob has no leaders, only instigators. A mob has no control but a mind of its own and unless its dispersed asap, they inadvertently turn violent. Firing live ammunition into the mob is the last resort of any LEO. If you dont understand the ROEs then I am sorry for your ignorance.
> 
> Protesters, is they get violent and start destroying public and govt property, deserve what they get. Thats just my opinion.
> 
> 
> read again what I posted. I clearly implied that the resentment is because of a sense of frustration due to lack of prosperity and many other factors facing you people which is then conveniently directed against the pagan Hindus by vested interests in your nation.



they are complaining about being raped you window licker, a dead body here or there is noting to you, since you care nothing for these people.


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## EjazR

GreenStar said:


> Deaths in renewed Kashmir violence - CENTRAL/S. ASIA - Al Jazeera English
> 
> It seems violence is resuming......not good at all.....it means more innocent people will die.



That is a July 31st article, there is no curfew today and no deaths since Thursday



GreenStar said:


> Kashmir Watch :: In-depth coverage on Kashmir conflict
> 
> Thats alot of people....80 since 2009



Yes that is true but, not anything that is unique to J&K, higher deaths in police firing were noted in other states in India with UP at the highest. Also many of these deaths are those that were done by militants as well. So it is a national problem in India as well as other south asian countries. For example in just four days 80+ people were killed in Karachi.

Here is an article on statistics of Indian protestors shot dead by police
*http://www.hindu.com/2010/07/08/stories/2010070864511200.htm*


> National problem
> 
> Fatalities caused by police firing have been far fewer in Jammu and Kashmir than in many other States less threatened by large-scale protests. Police in Uttar Pradesh killed 104 civilians and injured 145 in 608 incidents of police firing in 2008. Maharashtra reported 47 civilian deaths in 89 incidents of police firing.
> 
> Police in several States, the data shows, are more likely than their Jammu and Kashmir counterparts to open fire to kill. In 2007, 30 civilians were killed in Andhra Pradesh in 45 incidents of police firing; eight died in Jammu and Kashmir in 47 incidents. Back in 2006, the Andhra Pradesh police killed 72 civilians in 79 incidents of firing, while 138 Chhattisgarh residents were shot dead in 213 incidents.

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## gubbi

r3alist said:


> a few morons - i wish it was
> 
> the number of incidents in relation to the the number of convictions just shows what hypocrites and cowards you are, completely pathetic that you glaze over the violence yet scream democratic ideals on another thread, accept your wrong doings, i hope this struggle continues, these women are brave and strong, facing up to cowards


Give me the numbers. Support your claims by authentic sources, if you cannot, you are just blowing hot smelly wind.

We claim Kashmir as an integral part of India and so the govt is exercising its writ in the territory, as opposed to Pakistan which claims certain areas but even the army is NOT willing to go there for the fear of getting vanquished. 

There are NO WRONG DOINGS. They are being given an opportunity to work for their own progress through democracy but if they want to destroy that, so be it. *Those people who resort to violence deserve what they get*. Period. 

I believe that Kashmir's article 370 should be scrapped, protesters once arrested should be granted no rights and should be tried extra-judicially. Lets give them a real reason to protest. People get a govt they deserve. Some dont deserve democracy.

Lol, Look at the number of terrorists in your country. Now what does that tell you if you extrapolate the same logic? Anyway count the number of convictions for terrorists in Pakistan. Doesnt that tell you anything? Calling someone cowards and blowing your own trumpets doesnt help you. You lost all the wars - both militarily and diplomatically, against India for that fallacious belief!

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## gurjot

r3alist said:


> implement universal human rights, you hypocrite.
> 
> maybe one day your people will be occupied...



u can also implement human rights on this.a lot of videos r on internet.


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## r3alist

> There are NO WRONG DOINGS. They are being given an opportunity to work for their own progress through democracy but if they want to destroy that, so be it. Those people who resort to violence deserve what they get. Period.
> 
> I believe that Kashmir's article 370 should be scrapped, protesters once arrested should be granted no rights and should be tried extra-judicially. Lets give them a real reason to protest. People get a govt they deserve. Some dont deserve democracy.




quoted for posterity, you window licker


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## Iggy

r3alist said:


> this thread is about the actions of the indian rapist army, its a widespread disease
> 
> what type of men rape do this, i tell you who, these guys
> 
> Indian army finds inflatable answer to low morale - Telegraph



This thread is not about Indian Army nor about rape but about women protesters ..try to read the thread heading atleast before posting your rantings ..


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## gubbi

r3alist said:


> they are complaining about being raped you window licker, a dead body here or there is noting to you, since you care nothing for these people.



Window licker? Now thats a new one. Refrain from getting personal.

I don't care for what happens there as long as India maintains control the areas which India claims as its sovereign territory.

I applaud your hypocrisy. On one hand you all supported Sri Lankan army's assault against the LTTE, without a concern for the huge number of civilians killed in the war - some even going to the extent of saying that they deserved it for being Tamils, but now a few Muslim Kashmiris are a cause for concern to point of getting stomach ulcers? 

No sir, no. If a democratically elected govt wants to impose its writ against violent protesters, then the whole population is behind the govt's actions. The protesters, when they get violent, shall get what they deserve. There's no other way.


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## Iggy

r3alist said:


> quoted for posterity, you window licker



Widow licker??is that all you come up with?post reported for personal attack..hope mods shows fair judgement here


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## r3alist

your true colours come to light, lets leave it at that, kashmiri fighting is validated, down with indian occupation.


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## r3alist

seiko said:


> Widow licker??is that all you come up with?post reported for personal attack..hope mods shows fair judgement here



your countryman is advocating rape and murder, you see no problem with that, it shows what you are like, i hope the mods keep the original comment, just so everyone can see.


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## gurjot

r3alist said:


> your true colours come to light, lets leave it at that, kashmiri fighting is validated, down with indian occupation.



self deleted


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## Iggy

r3alist said:


> your countryman is advocating rape and murder, you see no problem with that, it shows what you are like, i hope the mods keep the original comment, just so everyone can see.



Where in the hell did he advocated rape and murder ??read his posts carefully..in a hurry to call him names you forget to read the posts i guess..

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## Ganga

ice_man said:


> you sir have NO idea about karachi,lahore specially the YOUNG WOMEN of this generation nowadays! you don't know anything about how liberated our women in villages are compared to indians in villages! but its ok your opinon on this forum i totally disregard after having a debate with you earlier on a topic! so even writing this feels like a waste of time but you addressed me so i had to reply!



And u sir have no idea abt Delhi or Bombay and the young women in our country.I am not saying that women in Pakistan are not liberated.But your claim that women in India are less librated than their counterparts in Pakistan is a big joke.


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## karan.1970

Er.. in year 2000 Rape rate in Pakistan was 1.69 (per lakh population) against 1.55 of India. 10&#37; extra rapes in Pakistan??? 

Comparative Criminology | Asia - India

Comparative Criminology | Asia - Pakistan

And now please lets get back to the topic...


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## GreenStar

> That is a July 31st article, there is no curfew today and no deaths since Thursday



Sorry I thought it was today....do you have any good websites that have news specifically on Kashmir,


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## GreenStar

That is bad aswell......seriously EjazR don't you think that the police training needs a rapid changing of tactics....in India and Pakistan....it is very irresponsible in my opinion.


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## EjazR

*Targeted by stone-pelters, Jammu and Kashmir police bear scars of violence - India - DNA*

The fury of Kashmir's stone pelters has left nearly 1500 police personnel injured in just eight weeks of turmoil. As they nurse their wounds, police officers and their men recall how stones rained on them from lanes and by-lanes of Srinagar and other urban areas of the valley.

*"We were under strict orders to exercise restraint. That explains the high casualty figure," said one officer from his hospital bed.*

871 personnel of Jammu and Kashmir Police and 604 from the much-criticised CRPF were injured in pitched battles on the streets of the Valley since the violence began on June 11. Many of them are still recuperating in hospitals.

State director general of police Kuldeep Khoda today announced a grant of Rs5000 to each injured personnel out of the police family fund.

Besides suffering injuries, the policemen have also been subjected to other forms of intimidation such as threats to their families, attacks on their houses and calls for their social boycott.

*Some of the injured are senior officers because they led from the front. However, morale of the force remains high as indicated by a number of personnel reporting for duty as soon as they recovered from their injuries.*

Take the case of sub-inspector Imtiyaz Ahmed of Srinagar's Humhama police post. He suffered a broken leg and was hospitalised for several days.

Once out of hospital, he joined back duty though he encountered more trouble. A police jeep carrying him and his staff was chased by a stone-throwing mob. Trying to avoid confrontation, Ahmed asked his driver to quickly move out of the area.

In the process the vehicle fell into a ditch. He was back in the hospital with an ankle injury for a week and today he stands at this important posting where he has to ensure smooth flow of traffic to the airport.

The instances of the state's police force  whose revival in recent years has been truly remarkable  being at the receiving end during the current turmoil are many. Besides physical injuries, their families have been threatened and houses attacked.

*The story of constable Javed Ahmed, whose pictures of being beaten up by an unruly mob were shown on various television channels and newspapers across the country, was that of patience and restraint.*

*"The constable while exhibiting the highest degree of dedication towards duty stood firmly against the lathi-wielding crowd.*

*"The constable was thrashed by stone pelters when he tried to reason out to them about the futility of violence. His half finger had to be amputated because of the injuries," a senior official said, adding, he could have fired in self-defence but he exercised self-restraint.*

Bijbehara's sub divisional police officer Farooq Zargar is going around with a fractured nose after being hit by stones pelted by the protestors. He was in Jammu for treatment and now plans to return to duty despite doctor's advice to take complete rest for a month.

"It has been a trying time. Our job is to protect our people. But who will protect us," said a policeman, who was also injured in stone pelting.

It has been a testing time for Jammu and Kashmir police personnel who are battling the fury of stone-throwers who have virtually paralysed the Kashmir valley for past two months. They have worked in the most trying circumstances without much appreciation.

*Bashir Ahmed, deputy superintendent of police in Budgam on the outskirts of Srinagar, was wounded when a big stone hit him in the leg 12 days ago. The protesters then attacked him with huge sticks and ensured that he sustains a fracture. He left the hospital against medical advice as his daughter is to get married this week.*

Bandipora SP Sheikh Junaid has joined back duty though he still sports four stitches on his forehead. The plight of another senior police officer Mehrajuddin, Additional SP of Anantnag, is no different as he too suffered injuries on his head.

Khoda had recently visited two hospitals here to enquire about the health of his men. He appreciated the restraint shown by them under the most difficult circumstances. Notwithstanding the injuries, he found their morale high.

*In Srinagar district alone, 225 policemen have been injured since June, a majority of them suffering head injuries. In Pulwama, another 77 were injured. Overall, more than 871 policemen have been injured in the Valley, many of them suffering serious wounds.*

*Besides stones, petrol bombs are also often used by the rioters while targeting the police personnel.*

Fourteen government and police buildings, including two police stations and two police posts which were set on fire, were damaged in the last five days of protests and violence in Kashmir.

Protesters also damaged a police Gypsy at Sheeri in Baramulla and set afire a police vehicle at Samboora in Pampore. A fire tender vehicle was also set ablaze at Lasjan bridge.

The government buildings damaged in the current unrest include a Railway station and Horticulture department office at Budgam, forest depot hut at Sangam, BDO office at Pattan and Handicraft building at Zaldagar.


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

Kashmir from an Indian perspective

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## EjazR

^^^Well you haveto look at the overallsituation. Ofcourse, training is needed and that will only happen over time.

Checkoutthis link on the recent casualties sustained byJ&K police. And let me reiterate that this is a local police force mojority of them muslims and not the army as some makeit out to be.
*Targeted by stone-pelters, Jammu and Kashmir police bear scars of violence - India - DNA*

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## gurjot

EjazR said:


> *Targeted by stone-pelters, Jammu and Kashmir police bear scars of violence - India - DNA*
> 
> The fury of Kashmir's stone pelters has left nearly 1500 police personnel injured in just eight weeks of turmoil. As they nurse their wounds, police officers and their men recall how stones rained on them from lanes and by-lanes of Srinagar and other urban areas of the valley.
> 
> *"We were under strict orders to exercise restraint. That explains the high casualty figure," said one officer from his hospital bed.*
> 
> 871 personnel of Jammu and Kashmir Police and 604 from the much-criticised CRPF were injured in pitched battles on the streets of the Valley since the violence began on June 11. Many of them are still recuperating in hospitals.
> 
> State director general of police Kuldeep Khoda today announced a grant of Rs5000 to each injured personnel out of the police family fund.
> 
> Besides suffering injuries, the policemen have also been subjected to other forms of intimidation such as threats to their families, attacks on their houses and calls for their social boycott.
> 
> *Some of the injured are senior officers because they led from the front. However, morale of the force remains high as indicated by a number of personnel reporting for duty as soon as they recovered from their injuries.*
> 
> Take the case of sub-inspector Imtiyaz Ahmed of Srinagar's Humhama police post. He suffered a broken leg and was hospitalised for several days.
> 
> Once out of hospital, he joined back duty though he encountered more trouble. A police jeep carrying him and his staff was chased by a stone-throwing mob. Trying to avoid confrontation, Ahmed asked his driver to quickly move out of the area.
> 
> In the process the vehicle fell into a ditch. He was back in the hospital with an ankle injury for a week and today he stands at this important posting where he has to ensure smooth flow of traffic to the airport.
> 
> The instances of the state's police force  whose revival in recent years has been truly remarkable  being at the receiving end during the current turmoil are many. Besides physical injuries, their families have been threatened and houses attacked.
> 
> *The story of constable Javed Ahmed, whose pictures of being beaten up by an unruly mob were shown on various television channels and newspapers across the country, was that of patience and restraint.*
> 
> *"The constable while exhibiting the highest degree of dedication towards duty stood firmly against the lathi-wielding crowd.*
> 
> *"The constable was thrashed by stone pelters when he tried to reason out to them about the futility of violence. His half finger had to be amputated because of the injuries," a senior official said, adding, he could have fired in self-defence but he exercised self-restraint.*
> 
> Bijbehara's sub divisional police officer Farooq Zargar is going around with a fractured nose after being hit by stones pelted by the protestors. He was in Jammu for treatment and now plans to return to duty despite doctor's advice to take complete rest for a month.
> 
> "It has been a trying time. Our job is to protect our people. But who will protect us," said a policeman, who was also injured in stone pelting.
> 
> It has been a testing time for Jammu and Kashmir police personnel who are battling the fury of stone-throwers who have virtually paralysed the Kashmir valley for past two months. They have worked in the most trying circumstances without much appreciation.
> 
> *Bashir Ahmed, deputy superintendent of police in Budgam on the outskirts of Srinagar, was wounded when a big stone hit him in the leg 12 days ago. The protesters then attacked him with huge sticks and ensured that he sustains a fracture. He left the hospital against medical advice as his daughter is to get married this week.*
> 
> Bandipora SP Sheikh Junaid has joined back duty though he still sports four stitches on his forehead. The plight of another senior police officer Mehrajuddin, Additional SP of Anantnag, is no different as he too suffered injuries on his head.
> 
> Khoda had recently visited two hospitals here to enquire about the health of his men. He appreciated the restraint shown by them under the most difficult circumstances. Notwithstanding the injuries, he found their morale high.
> 
> *In Srinagar district alone, 225 policemen have been injured since June, a majority of them suffering head injuries. In Pulwama, another 77 were injured. Overall, more than 871 policemen have been injured in the Valley, many of them suffering serious wounds.*
> 
> *Besides stones, petrol bombs are also often used by the rioters while targeting the police personnel.*
> 
> Fourteen government and police buildings, including two police stations and two police posts which were set on fire, were damaged in the last five days of protests and violence in Kashmir.
> 
> Protesters also damaged a police Gypsy at Sheeri in Baramulla and set afire a police vehicle at Samboora in Pampore. A fire tender vehicle was also set ablaze at Lasjan bridge.
> 
> The government buildings damaged in the current unrest include a Railway station and Horticulture department office at Budgam, forest depot hut at Sangam, BDO office at Pattan and Handicraft building at Zaldagar.



ezazr bhai another kashmir thread.it is very difficult to reply in different threads specially when u r answering pakistani members question,repeating same thing again n again.


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## r3alist

the fact is they are there to die for india, i hope they do their job well


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## EjazR

@gurjot
Its a different topic,hence a different thread. If there is a thread that it can go under already then I would have done so but I couldnt find any similar thread existing already.


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## EjazR

r3alist said:


> the fact is they are there to die for india, i hope they do their job well



Yes and the fact are that they are resident of Kashmir valley. They are their to protect the people and if the article isanything to go by,they have tried their best in very trying circumstances.


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## Iggy

r3alist said:


> the fact is they are there to die for india, i hope they do their job well



They are there to defend their country and they are doing their job well..Kudos to Kashmiri police and CRPF..our salute the braves

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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

EjazR said:


> Yes and the fact are that they are resident of Kashmir valley. They are their to protect the people and if the article isanything to go by,they have tried their best in very trying circumstances.



Protecting which people? From all the pics and stories it seems like they are protecting each others ***** while the people they are supposed to protect attack them in disgust! It is so obvious Indian forces are not welcome in the valley! How many more stones till it gets through your guys noggins?


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## EjazR

GreenStar said:


> Sorry I thought it was today....do you have any good websites that have news specifically on Kashmir,


Here are some local published papers with news portals

Kashmir Images :: Only Daily English Newspaper published from Srinagar & Jammu, Kashmir news, best website of Kashmir

Welcome to Kashmir Times
Kashmir Observer :: Your Doorway to Kashmir
Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir 
GreaterKashmir Daily English Newspaper from Kashmir Srinagar

There are more accurate than other portals that are run specifcally on a India bashing agenda

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## r3alist

EjazR said:


> Yes and the fact are that they are resident of Kashmir valley. They are their to protect the people and if the article isanything to go by,they have tried their best in very trying circumstances.



so when someone gets murdered by the indian army, or more commonly raped how does a kashmiri seek protection from the very people who are doing the crimes.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> Sorry I thought it was today....do you have any good websites that have news specifically on Kashmir,



Mostly Indian.. NDTV.COM, Timesofindia.com.. Not too much interest shown by the world media except a bit of mention in Dawn.com and Nation.com.pk


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## Hafizzz

> Kashmir cry reaches India, other parts of world
> Kashmir cry reaches India, other parts of world | Kashmir Media Service
> 
> Kashmiri youth, human rights organizations, students and traders observed a series of protests in several cities of India and other parts of the world to express solidarity with the people of occupied Kashmir over the recent civilian killings in the territory.
> 
> Indian policemen dispersed a gathering, which was held at posh MG Road in Bangalore. The protestors urged India to stop the violence, which had claimed over 50 lives since June 11. They demanded repeal of Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) from the occupied territory and release of scores of youth arrested during recent anti-India demonstrations.
> 
> In New Delhi, hundreds of people assembled at Jantar Mantar for nightlong protests against the killing of youth by paramilitary troopers in occupied Kashmir. We have come to show solidarity with our brethren in Kashmir, said a protester. The demonstrators, holding placards reading Stop killing innocent Kashmiris, also raised pro-liberation slogans.
> 
> In Indian Hyderabad, hundreds of Kashmiri students and academics along with the members of Students Federation of India (SFI) took out a rally at Central University. The students, carried placards which read Stop the cycle of oppression in Kashmir, Stop genocide of Kashmiris and Revoke Armed Forces Special Powers Act. The rally, also participated by girl students, culminated at the main market. Candles were also lit in memory of the Kashmiris who had been recently killed across the Valley.
> 
> The Kashmiri students and businessmen who staged peaceful protests and sit-ins in Aligarh and Pune demanded an immediate halt to the civilian killings and revocation of draconian laws in Kashmir.
> 
> On the other hand, protest demonstrations against Indian state terrorism in occupied Kashmir were also staged in Muzaffarabad, London, Brussels and Washington.



Indian butchers stop the killing.


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## EjazR

r3alist said:


> so when someone gets murdered by the indian army, or more commonly raped how does a kashmiri seek protection from the very people who are doing the crimes.



Well if some army officers or even if criminals and robbers areinvolved it is the police that gets to the bottom and catches the criminals. The justice is then in thehands of the courts. police isonly law enforcement.

For example, here is an article when the local police cracked a fake encounter case and charged army officers as well.

*J&K fake encounter: Col, Major among 11 chargesheeted*


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## Abu Zolfiqar

those protestors know that it's a lost cause for india to insist and act as if Kashmir is indian territory

you lose the land when you lose the [occupied] peoples


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## karan.1970

KMSNEWS..... LOL


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## Abu Zolfiqar

yup, it's an official agency based there (in Kashmir)


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## EjazR

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> yup, it's an official agency based there (in Kashmir)



Checkout the contact details for KMS

Contact us at

email: info@kmsnews.org

phone: *92* -51--4435548,4435549

fax: *92*-51-4445068 



Last I knew, the country code for India is 91, guess which country is 92?

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## Undivided Kashmir

Propaganda from Pak based news agencies and media outlets, what else can we expect from them.


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

Undivided Kashmir said:


> Propaganda from Pak based news agencies and media outlets, what else can we expect from them.



So the turmoil in Kashmir is a fantasy? Pakistan is telling kids to line up in front of Indian soldiers to throw rocks, just to receive a volley of bullets? Yaar stop sipping so much bhang water.


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## Ras

I somehow doubt that anyone can raise pro Kashmir liberation slogans in any other part of India outside Kashmir. That would provoke a pretty nasty reaction from the locals.


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## GreenStar

Thankyou Karan, I appreciate the links.

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## wap7

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> yup, it's an official agency based there (in Kashmir)



Domain ID: D74482149-LROR
Domain Name:KMSNEWS.ORG
Created On:02-Jul-2001 09:32:05 UTC
Last Updated On:01-Jul-2010 13:11:59 UTC
Expiration Date:02-Jul-2011 09:32:05 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:Tucows Inc. (R11-LROR)
Status:OK
Admin ID:tuNKxjHkhbLPXFi1
Admin Name:Shaikh Tajmmul Islam
Admin Organization:Kashmir Media Service (KMS)
Admin Street1:House 354, Street 86, Sector I-8/4
Admin City:Islamabad
Admin State/Province: Punjab
Admin Postal Code:44000
Admin Country: PK
Admin Phone:+92.4444662
Admin FAX:+92.4444663
Admin Email:kms@isb.paknet.com.pk


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## EjazR

*@Ras*
Not really, India is pretty tolerant and allows even sepratists to raise their voice as long as they do peacefully.

Most of the protests were peaceful and around stopping killings of civilians in Kashmir. Many locals muslims and non-muslims joined them in Banglaore, Chennai, Hyderabad, Delhi and Pune among other places.

It might be surprising to Pakistanis,but Indian civil society has been more concerned of the killings than other foreign countries be they OIC or even Pakistan as they rightly should be.


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## Undivided Kashmir

IOC paper tiger - nothing more.


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## Ras

EjazR said:


> *@Ras*
> Not really, India is pretty tolerant and allows even sepratists to raise their voice as long as they do peacefully.
> 
> Most of the protests were peaceful and around stopping killings of civilians in Kashmir. Many locals muslims and non-muslims joined them in Banglaore, Chennai, Hyderabad, Delhi and Pune among other places.
> 
> It might be surprising to Pakistanis,but Indian civil society has been more concerned of the killings than other foreign countries be they OIC or even Pakistan as they rightly should be.



Ya sure...but I doubt they raised pro liberation slogans. That would be a lightening rod for certain parties in India especially if raised by Muslim majority crowds.


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## matti

the solution is very easy, get the **** out of Kashmir. Kashmiris dont want you there.


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## EjazR

matti said:


> the solution is very easy, get the **** out of Kashmir. Kashmiris dont want you there.



But the J&K police are local people.They have families and relatives there. Why should they leave?

If you are talking about military deployment in population areas, yes that should be reduced but the police is not going to go anywhere.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

gurjot said:


> implement this to b4 1947 condition,to baluchistan,tibet etc.u will know how u will give them freedom.



I know being a balouch we will join with Pakistan its our motherland

Try tht in Assam where they hoisted This flag as well as IOK


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## gurjot

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> I know being a balouch we will join with Pakistan its our motherland
> 
> Try tht in Assam where they hoisted This flag as well as IOK



let them do this,pak flag is also burnt in baluchistan(have seen in video)


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## DesiGuy

SRINAGAR: A day after Hurriyat hawk Syed Ali Shah Geelani spurned home minister P Chidambaram's dialogue offer, moderate separatist Mirwaiz Umar Farooq on Sunday followed suit, saying the talks will have no meaning because the Union government is "lacking in sincerity".

Geelani, meanwhile, asked New Delhi to fulfil the promise of giving Kashmiris the right to self-determination. "Pandit Nehru promised Kashmiris the chance to decide their fate in 1948, but never fulfilled the promise," he said. "Nehru showed the sky but snatched the ground beneath our feet." He asked people to observe Pakistan's foundation day as "a day of solidarity" on August 14 and called for observing August 15 as a "black day".

The 37-year-old Mirwaiz said he had proposed specific measures like demilitarisation, revocation of repressive laws and release of political prisoners to build trust to take the dialogue process forward and provide much-needed relief to the people. "But, unfortunately, these demands were not heeded," he said.

This showed New Delhi's lack of sincerity, the Mirwaiz said, which in turn has discredited the institution of talks. "In less than two months, around 50 people, mostly children and teenagers, have been killed and all forms of repression are in place," he said, and added, "Where's the scope for engagement when a virtual reign of terror has been let loose on the people demanding their basic rights?"

Geelani and the Mirwaiz haven't, in the past, agreed on engagement with the Centre, and the hardline octogenarian Geelani even broke away from Hurriyat when the Mirwaiz-led separatists held two rounds of talks with the BJP-led NDA government, which first brought the separatists to the negotiating table in January and June 2003.

The UPA government picked up the threads and held separate talks with the Hurriyat, JKLF leader Yasin Malik and People's Conference chief Sajjad Lone in late 2005 and early 2006. A "quiet dialogue" between the Mirwaiz and the Centre broke abruptly after Hurriyat leader Fazlul-haq Qureshi was critically injured in an attack in Srinagar earlier this year. Qureshi was seen as a facilitator of the engagement and had earlier brokered talks with Hizbul Mujahideen.

The Mirwaiz said India and Pakistan were clear on their terms of engagement with the Hurriyat. "(They were) based on two principles: All parties recognised Kashmir as a dispute and displayed willingness to resolve it (and) that dialogue was a way forward to the issue's final settlement in accordance with the people's wishes and also taking into account the positions of India and Pakistan," the Mirwaiz said.

Meanwhile, Geelani met a delegation of Srinagar-based Kashmiri Pandits, who complained of harassment, and assured them safety. "Geelani became emotional and told us that we're a part of Kashmir and our safety is the majority's community's primary duty," Srinagar-based Kashmiri Pandit Sangharsh Samiti leader Sanjay Tickoo told TOI. "Geelani told us that if anything happens to us, it would be like a wound inflicted on his body," added Tickoo.

Cheer Pak's I-Day, mark Aug 15 as black day: Geelani - India - The Times of India


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Kashmir youths take on the Indian state as separatist struggle starts again​*
*Kashmirs hospitals have been inundated with youths injured and killed by the security forces following an upsurge in violent clashes in the disputed Indian state.​*
By Dean Nelson in Srinagar 
Published: 9:40PM BST 08 Aug 2010






Dr Waseem Quereshi said his staff had treated 57 young men mainly in their teens in the last week Photo: REX 

Separatist leaders warned that human rights abuses in Kashmir was creating a new generation of angry teenage militants dedicated to confrontation with the Indian security forces. 

The government lifted a curfew in the Kashmir Valley yesterday with the hope of luring separatist leaders into talks. 

But the offer has been rejected by groups that insist India withdraws its security forces. 

Violence broke out in April when three young Muslims were killed by Army troops who claimed they were "unidentified foreign militants." 

Their families said they had been murdered in staged "encounter" killings by soldiers to pass themselves off as heroes. 

Dr Waseem Quereshi of Srinagar's Sri Maharajah Hari Singh Hospital said his staff had treated 57 young men mainly in their teens in the last week. 

All but three had been shot by the security forces and four had died. 

One was nine year old Sameer Ahmad Rah whose father told The Daily Telegraph his son had been beaten to death by paramilitaries from India's Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF). 

"He wanted to visit his uncle's house about 100 metres away. He had taken a safe route there through the lane. Some CRPF men hiding behind a shop grabbed him and beat him. He screamed and the neighbours saw two of them beating my son with sticks. One pushed his stick into his mouth," said Fayaz Ahmad Rah. 

"Violence is not the answer. We are bare-handed, we don't have arms, but we will fight them. It's not just my son who was killed," he said. 

A CRPF spokesman denied the allegation and said Sameer had been trampled in a stampede when police and CRPF troops chased protestors. "It's a very unfortunate story," he said. 

Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, a leader of the separatist All-Parties Hurriyat Conference, who is under house arrest, said deaths like that of Sameer were raising a new generation of young Kashmiris filled with hate for India. 

"If your son is beaten to death, tell me you wouldn't be the first to burn down a symbol of India?" he said. The protests are a "rebound effect of a generation born into conflict. Today they take to the streets, defiant and disgusted and fearless of death". 

Ali Mohammed Sagar, the state government's law minister, said there had been "excesses" by the security forces, but protestors had burned police stations and attacked government property. 

"There are some excesses, firing was unwarranted, no doubt about that, there are black sheep everywhere. There are some problems, killing of kids," he said. "There are killings which are unprovoked, but some of our people tried to set fire to a police station. Peaceful demonstrations are no problem, but when it becomes violent, that creates a problem." 

Kashmir youths take on the Indian state as separatist struggle starts again - Telegraph

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## S_O_C_O_M

*Indian Army's conduct in IHK worse than Israel's in Palestine ​*
Monday, August 09, 2010

By Iftikhar Gilani
JERUSALAM: Israeli military officers facing international criticism for alleged human rights violations in the Palestinian territory were shocked to hear an Indian Army general narrating his experiences in Indian-held Kashmir.

Daniel Reisner, chief of the International Law Department of the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF), said an Indian general shocked him by telling that every house in IHK that was suspected to have weapons could be barged in to and were the weapons found, the residents could be treated as terrorists engaged in or aiding the insurgency.

In an interaction last week with a group of visiting Indian journalists, Reisner said he told the Indian general, "We (Israelis), although are deemed bad in the world's eyes, cannot not take this recourse." 

Reisner has been a senior member of Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak's delegation that undertook the failed Camp David talks in July 2000.

Amongst his current responsibilities is investigation or prosecution of Israeli soldiers for civil and human rights violations during the Palestinian Intifada in the occupied territories.

While on one hand the Indian government has been officially asking Israel to observe restraint, the Indian military is teaching Israeli Defence Forces to deal strictly with Palestinians on the other, even telling them to break their (Palestinians') doors and homes, advocating unrestrained and irrational operations.

Israel is now the second biggest source of arms for India and may soon overtake Russia as its number-one arms' supplier.

The Indian Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) recently issued a spate of statements criticising Israel for the use of force against Palestinians.

An MEA press release said, "It is disappointing to note that the use of disproportionate force (by Israel) is resulting in a large number of civilian casualties (in Gaza) on the one hand and the escalating violence on the other. This continued use of indiscriminate force is unwarranted and condemnable. The government of India urges utmost restraint (by Israel) so as to give peace a chance as the peace process may well get derailed irreversibly."

Either the Indian Foreign Office has little knowledge of what their defence forces are doing in IHK, or it does not know what their generals are teaching in Israel against Palestinians. Reisner's revelations between Indian and Israeli generals surprised Indian journalists.

Israel, according to Reisner, stopped dealing with such attacks as a law and order problem and hardened its response during Intifada-II of 2000.

He wrote new rules of engagement when Palestinians started using guns and missiles instead of stones, which was a hallmark of Intifada-I of 1987.

Reisner said that the Israelis, from their experience, told the Indian generals that their army's policies in IHK would not work unless they wanted to cut-off their civilian adversaries altogether.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## Agnostic_Indian

It is possible that some evil army men may have killed people to get promotions. 
while i sympathise with victim's parents i don't think they should turn against country. They should make complaint to army and can protest in the streets also but against establishment or leadership.their fight should against guilty and who ever shield the guilty india as a country is not their enemy and burning of national flag will not be tolerated.


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## Awesome

There is no justification to kill a nine year old, the Kashmiris want the Indian rule from Kashmir to end. Sooner or later, every household in Kashmir will start fighting the Indian security forces.


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## Awesome

Another youth dies, curfew in Srinagar - Hindustan Times



> The toll in the ongoing cycle of violence in the Kashmir Valley rose to 50 with another youth succumbing to injuries sustained in firing by security forces, police said on Monday as curfew was imposed in Srinagar to contain tensions. &#8220;Fida Nabi Lone, 20, who had been injured in Shalteng outskirts of Srinagar city last week, when a violent mob defied curfew and attacked security forces, died in hospital during the night (Sunday)," a police officer said in Srinagar.
> 
> *With the youth's death, the total number of civilians killed in security force firing since June 11 has gone up to 50, 33 of them in violent clashes in the Valley since July 30 while 17 other protesters died between June 11 to July 29.*
> 
> &#8220;Curfew has been imposed in Srinagar city to prevent violence. Restrictions have also been imposed in the south Kashmir towns of Anantnag, Pulwama, Kakpora and Kulgam while there are no restrictions in Shopian town.
> 
> &#8220;There are no restrictions in the north Kashmir towns of Sopore, Baramulla, Handwara and Kupwara,&#8221; the officer said.
> 
> Hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Geelani has called for protests and shutdown in the Valley on Monday as part of his group's 'Quit Kashmir' campaign.
> 
> *The latest resistance calendar issued by Geelani's group had asked people to resume normal activities Sunday and buy essentials to sustain another spell of protests and shutdowns called during this week by the group.*
> 
> The Kashmir Valley has been on the boil for more than 50 days due to violent protests against civilians being killed in firing by security forces.



Indians are purposely targeting the very young in hopes that parents would back off.


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## Awesome

*Feel cheated by govt inaction: Kashmiris at protest*

Kashmiris gathered at the Jantar Mantar on Sunday evening to protest against the civilian killings in the Valley over the last few months.

Children, men and women across all age groups squatted on the sidewalks taking turns to voice their concerns over the microphone while others held up posters and banners.

Even as the protest was about to start, some of them clashed with a group of Kashmiri Pandits who were also protesting at the spot. The police intervened and the Kashmiri Pandit protesters were led away.

Irfan Rashid, a Delhi-based businessman, said: So far we constantly trusted the government and hoped our leaders will take decisive action. But over generations we have been neglected and now even the educated Kashmiri community is being fooled into believing that the government will do something to put an end to the violence... Be it the Shopian rape case or the Sopore and Baramulla killings, the government has never bothered to come and check on the innocents who are suffering there. We feel cheated and there is a limit to our suffering.

Another protester Saba said: I dont want to recount my bad experiences because they are bitter and many. The only wish I want to make is even though our generation could not witness the Kashmir that was called a Paradise on Earth, at least our children should be able to see the glory of Kashmir as our grandparents saw.

The banners and posters painted a grim picture as they listed the death toll and number of rape cases over the last few months. The protesters demanded that the killings should stop and be investigated and the Valley be declared a no weapon zone. They also wanted the troops pulled out of civilian areas and Section 144 of the AFSPA withdrawn.

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## Awesome

Jantar Mantar protests in HC court - Hindustan Times

Is the ban on holding of protests at Parliament Street and Jantar Mantar illegal? The Delhi High Court has decided to examine this issue. The court on Monday issued notice to Centre and Delhi Government on a public interest litigation challenging the prohibitory orders and continuous imposition of 


section 144 Criminal Procedure Code (ban on unlawful assembly) in these areas since four years. They have to to file their replies by August 25.
A Bench of Chief Justice Dipak Misra and Justice Manmohan was hearing a PIL filed by Banoo Bee, an activist associated with an organisation working for victims of the Bhopal gas tragedy.

She approached the court after the police refused to allow her to hold a protest march in support of victims of the gas tragedy in July.

Advocate Prashant Bhushan, appearing for her, contended that the police have been invoking section 144 (unlawful assembly) for many years in perpetuity which is illegal.

"Right to protest is a fundamental right and it cannot be banned. At the most, there can be some reasonable restrictions on holding protest. New Delhi, being the centre of power, is the most appropriate place to hold protest and the government cannot put a blanket ban on it," the advocate said in its petition.

They are also demanding a designated area where protests can be held unhindered. Section 144 of the CrPC empowers a Magistrate to issue prohibitory order to prevent breach of peace.

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## Awesome

*Voices of strife-torn Kashmir echo in Delhi - Delhi - City - The Times of India*

NEW DELHI: A protest at Jantar Mantar on the violence in Kashmir took an ugly turn when Muslims from the state and Kashmiri Pandits exchanged heated words and one group charged at the other accusing them of "anti-national" activities. It took prompt police action to prevent the situation from turning any worse. More than 25 Kashmiri Pandits were detained. 

Earlier, the two groups refused to sit with each other even though they had assembled for a common cause. Both groups addressed the urgent need for peace in Kashmir and bemoaned the number of deaths in the last few weeks. *While the Kashmiri Pandits expressed the loss of identity and representation afforded to them, the Kashmiri Muslims expressed pain and regret over the number of lives lost in `mindless firing' at civilian protests. The Muslim group kept urging the Pandits to sit together but the latter refused. *

*"Deshdrohi jaao,'' came the cry from the group of Kashmiri Pandit protesters. They claimed the `other' group was separatist and they did not care for the "azadi'' that they were demanding. *

Said activist Aditya Raj Kaul, "A small section of Kashmiri Muslims want a separate nation. They are using women and young children in this movement, and want Kashmir to be a mess. They want the administration to fail, the infrastructure to fall apart and create total chaos and make it an international issue. Peace cannot be achieved with separatists on the table. Bring in the Sikhs, the Gujjars, Shias, Dogras, Buddhists, Pandits and let all of us decide what Kashmir wants. Theirs is not a secular movement." 

Meanwhile,* Kashmiri Muslims claimed that they wanted to include all Kashmiris in the struggle. Said activist Ishfaq, "They are our brothers. We want a peaceful Kashmir and the atrocities that the Indian Armed Forces are committing against innocent civilians must be stopped. We are crying, but nobody is looking.*''

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## Awesome

*Dal Khalsa joins protest at Jantar Mantar in Delhi to highlight plight of Kashmiri people @ www.punjabnewsline.com*

CHANDIGARH: To highlight the dismal plight of Kashmiris and protest against the unabated killings across the valley since June 11, the Dal Khalsa participated in a sit-in organized by Kashmiris of Delhi at Jantar Mantar this evening.


Informing the media persons on phone, Dal Khalsa leader Kanwar Pal Singh said its the spirited protest in which hundreds of Kashmiris including students, professionals and businessmen assembled at Jantar Mantar carrying placards reading stop crimes against humanity and UN to break its stoic silence on Kashmir. Photographs of human rights violations were put on display in large numbers. They also kept blood drenched school bags to make the denizens of Delhi aware about the school children being killed by trigger happy policemen and troopers.

Hailing the spirit and steadfastness of Kashmiri youth who were sacrificing their lives while facing the state repression in the valley since last 2 months, the Dal Khalsa spokesperson Kanwarpal Singh they were moved by the sufferings of the Kashmiri people that were striving for their rights and freedom. By facing the bullets and batons of security forces with brave hearts, the Kashmiris have shown to the world that they prefer death to slavery".

Angry young Kashmiri protesters mostly studying in various educational institutions raised the most popular slogan in the Valley Hum Kya Chathe Azadi (We want freedom), in the heart of New Delhi. They sang songs and poems to pay respect to those who have been killed. Both boys and girls in an emotive chord lambasted the Indian civil society for keeping mum on the killings of Kashmiris.

A girl speaker castigated the advice of Home Minister to Kashmiri parents for keeping their wards inside the houses. She reminded P Chidambaram that security forces in the valley had picked up large number of youth from their houses in the past and killed them in fake-encounters. 

Accusing the Indian government for using excessive force in Kashmir, the organizer of the event Prof S A R Geelani said security forces were firing indiscriminately on Kashmiri protestors and beating them to silence their voices.

Satnam Singh another Dal Khalsa leader was more vocal. While addressing the gathering he praised the leadership of Hurriyat chief Syed Ali Shah Geelani and echoed his call to keep the on-going protests peaceful and non-violent. Dr Manjinder Singh expressed solidarity with the people of Kashmir and with the families of victims of state repression.

Members of Democratic Students Union, All India students Association, Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist), Peoples Union for Civil Liberties, Peoples Union For Democratic Rights, Naga Peoples Movement for Human Rights and Resistance Media also participated in the sit-in.

The tempers ran high when a handful of Kashmiri Pandits arrived at venue and started condemning the pro-freedom leaders. Although police force present there in large numbers prevented them in coming close to the venue, the organizers requested them to join the sit-in to protest the innocent killings. Prof Geelani said you are also our brothers, come on the stage and not fall in the trap of agencies who intend to divide us.

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## Awesome

Khalsa's have joined in. Either India gives in to Kashmir now, or else the freedom movements would converge on New Delhi from Kashmir to Assam/Nagaland.


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## foxbat

So you see how this is going? Residents of different Indian states and communities protesting against usage of extreme force against residents of another Indian state by the Police. Exactly what you are tom toming as a victory is what will make this a victory for India and its Kashmiri citizens, but not for Pakistan.

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## SurvivoR

Inshallah... Kashmir will meet its destiny... Freedom from the terrorist state of hindu india. It is also heartening to see the Dal Khalsa joining in protest. The Sikhs have a score to settle as well, the desecration of the Golden Temple by the indian army.


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## Awesome

foxbat said:


> So you see how this is going? Residents of different Indian states and communities protesting against usage of extreme force against residents of another Indian state by the Police. Exactly what you are tom toming as a victory is what will make this a victory for India and its Kashmiri citizens, but not for Pakistan.


That's a strawman.

That is a put your face under the blanket attitude and deny the obvious. 

They are attacking the symbols of India hood, and most groups in India are seeing it as such but are unable to contain them in any other way than to use more violence against them, which further fuels their desire to break free.

They have reached New Delhi, and its the best move. More and more Kashmiris should focus on New Delhi for their protests.

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## riju78

Dear asim how come u don't post anything abt Karachi where more than 90 people have been killed or abt the floods. are u only interested in kashmir???


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## Awesome

Geelani's protest calendar is the best move for a sustained protest, he should keep launching these calendars with updates now and then. The result was, that yesterday when the curfew was up, Kashmiris started stockpiling food and supplies for protests later on.

Indian immediately imposed more curfews to block the stockpiling effort. This thing has gone out of India's control, for Pakistan we just need to cheer the Kashmiris on.


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## Awesome

riju78 said:


> Dear asim how come u don't post anything abt Karachi where more than 90 people have been killed or abt the floods. are u only interested in kashmir???


You don't have the right to ask me that question and it is offtopic so I don't have to answer you. Don't be wimp and try to derail threads, stick to topic.

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## foxbat

Asim Aquil said:


> That's a strawman.
> 
> That is a put your face under the blanket attitude and deny the obvious.
> 
> They are attacking the symbols of India hood, and most groups in India are seeing it as such but are unable to contain them in any other way than to use more violence against them, which further fuels their desire to break free.
> 
> They have reached New Delhi, and its the best move. More and more Kashmiris should focus on New Delhi for their protests.



Lets see. I dont believe that. The fact other groups in India are showing solidarity with Kashmiris against the use of force by the state govt, which is elected by these very people, demonstrates that there is no discrimination against Kashmiri people and projects the image of oneness. The Azadi crap will soon moderate itself into prevention of use of force by Law enforcement bodies. Some amount of heal talk by Farooq / Omar with a fast tracked investigation into the original death by a tear gas shell will temper it down soon enough.

About reaching Delhi, its not a restricted area and any Indian citizen who can afford a train ticket can reach Delhi the day he/she wants.

btw, did you call Kashmiri Pandits as other groups (other than Kashmiri groups). Do I sense a bit of religious undercurrents seeping in?

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## riju78

So how can I ask u that question please??? Sorry for being off topic. If I post 10 different articles abt something happening in Pakistan when there is a riot and biggest natural disaster in the history of my country wouldn't u be asking me the same??


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## foxbat

Asim Aquil said:


> Geelani's protest calendar is the best move for a sustained protest, he should keep launching these calendars with updates now and then. The result was, that yesterday when the curfew was up, Kashmiris started stockpiling food and supplies for protests later on.
> 
> Indian immediately imposed more curfews to block the stockpiling effort. This thing has gone out of India's control, for Pakistan we just need to cheer the Kashmiris on.



I don't think there was any curfew yesterday in Kashmir. And Gilani tried this calander thing in mid july too. Did not work. He is simply trying to regain relevance, the separatists have losts over last few years..


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## parasite

Yesterday saw kashmiri people on NDTV(programme HUM LOG). And one of person aged 23 yrs asked for DEMOCRATIC rights(in a sense that--> if you give me my democratic rights why will I ask Azadi).....truely heartening to see them...he also said that when he is 25 he will contest elections........of-course there were people dissatisfied with the centre(and more so with the Omar government)....and they demanded that there should be protest in the National capital for their cause........

Things are back on track I will say--> and improving

Good for INDIA
Good for INDIAN KASHMIRIS

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## Jade

Thats great, by protesting at Delhi, Kashmiris are proving themselves to be Indians. They are protesting the injustice met out to them by the security forces to their elected representative. Thats the greatness of any secular democratic institution.

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## foxbat

jade1982 said:


> Thats great, by protesting at Delhi, Kashmiris are proving themselves to be Indians. They are protesting the injustice met out to them by the security forces to their elected representative. Thats the greatness of any secular democratic institution.



So very true. People dissatisfied with the state govt are simply escalating it up to the central govt. Thats what happens in a democracy. This though wont be understood by people who have lived under a dictatorship until recently.


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## riju78

Any non violent protest is part of the democratic system and I'm sure justice will be served.


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## EjazR

This is what I have been saying in private conversations. Kashmiris will only get their problem resolved when they talk to India.

Not US, not UN, not OIC not even Pakistan will help in anyway in altering their situation. Ask GoI to give them the rights that any Indian has. To reduce the military deployment and combat HR violations. And they will find that once they assert their Indian identity, Indians from all parts will support them from Delhi to Kolkata to Bangalore and Hyderabad and even Chennai.

I just hope that the plight of NE in Manipur, Tripura and Nagaland is also highlighted as they suffer from even worse HR violations but no one hears their voice.

This is the only way peace will prevail.

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## Fireurimagination

Asim Aquil said:


> Khalsa's have joined in. Either India gives in to Kashmir now, or else the freedom movements would converge on New Delhi from Kashmir to Assam/Nagaland.



LOL where these Kashmiri people shouting Azadi, Azadi in New Delhi, everybody is saddened by happenings in Kashmir, more so the migrants Kashmiris and they are protesting against the same, big deal but yes I do admire your optimism


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## EjazR

*Kashmiris in Exile protest against separatist propaganda | GroundReport*

New Delhi/Jammu, August, 08 (Scoop News) &#8211; Kashmiris in Exile today made an impassioned plea for peace in Kashmir. Hundreds of Kashmiris along with Sikhs, Dogras and Muslims held a huge rally today at Jantar Mantar in New Delhi; which was joined by members of civil society as well. The internally displaced Kashmiri Pandits made a fervent appeal for peace to the youth in Kashmir and requested them to not get instigated by the rabble rousers who are hell bent upon destroying not just Kashmir but even future and lives of the young impressionable Kashmiris. They also made it clear that no solution to Kashmir issue is possible without the involvement of Kashmiri Pandits.


We are an inalienable party to the Kashmir issue said Dr.L.N.Dhar a displaced Kashmiri and a member of the Kashmiri Samiti, Delhi. The government of India should identify the real criminals who are instigating the young people to come on the streets to indulge in arson and rioting. It is imperative for the government to act against such people as Massarat Alam and Asaiya Andrabi. They should be charged for murder because it is on their instigation that young people are coming out as rioters and then getting killed. There can be no peace in the valley unless the government of the day acts tough on the people who are causing such unprecedented bloodshed in the valley said Rakesh Kaul, President of the Kashmiri Samiti Delhi.

It is a welcome step that the Home Minister has said that the Government will initiate a political process in Kashmir but then the government has to understand that there isn&#8217;t just one stream of thought that it needs to engage in &#8220;a quiet dialogue&#8221; with, said Kamal Hak, National Spokesperson of Panun Kashmir. He said that the government should take on board the Buddhists, Shias, Gujjars, Dogras, Pandits, Sikhs and not just the separatists. In case the quiet dialogue doesn&#8217;t address the issues of Kashmiri Pandits then the whole process will lay waste as we have seen in the past, said Amal Magazine of Roots in Kashmir, an organization of young Kashmiri Pandits.

The protesters even sent books to the stone pelters in Kashmir saying that the light of education would remove the darkness of their ignorance and would help them know who their real enemies are. They will know how they are being used by some evil minds for their narrow parochial objectives said Radhika Kaul a Yale student who also attended the protest. It is our way of telling our brethren back in Kashmir not to let their lives go waste for someone&#8217;s evil aims. We were thrown out of our homes some 20 years back but have never resorted to violence of any kind she said.


The Kashmiri Pandits have been demanding a separate homeland in Kashmir to be called Panun Kashmir (Our Kashmir).We do not want to live with people who engage in violence at the slightest pretext of perceived or real injustice. We are a peace loving community and would never indulge in such wanton acts of violence at the drop of a pin said Rakesh Gurkha, a young Kashmiri Pandit. We want to live in a peaceful Kashmir and hence our demand for a separate homeland in Kashmir is not only long due but even justified. He even questioned the ethics of the Media who he said, would criticize the security forces but did not show or write a word about the Sikh boy whose hair was cut by protestors or about the Mayor of Jaipur who was attacked and forced to return to Jaipur without the Darshan of the Holy Cave of Shiva at Amarnath. Are these less important to the media just because they aren&#8217;t Muslims, he quipped.

Meanwhile Panun Kashmir Panun Kashmir (PK) organised a Seminar in Jammu on the Topic &#8220;Making Sense of What is Happening in Kashmir" on Sunday. The Seminar was presided by Dr. Mohan Krishan Teng. an eminent political scientist of Jammu & Kashmir. The Seminar was addressed by MM. Khajuria, former Director General of Police Prof Hariom. an eminent think-tank and political writer and Dr. Ajay Chrungoo, Chairman of Panun Kashmir Shailendra Aima Senior Vice Chairman of Panun Kashmir conducted deliberations and Kuldip Raina Gen. Secretary Panun Kashmir presented the vote of thanks.


M M Khajuria former Director General of Police, while speaking in the Seminar, opined that the "Quit Jammu & Kashmir" call given by Tehrik-e-Hurriyat Chief Syed Ali Shah Gellani amidst the ongoing disturbances in Kashmir exposed the political dimension of the conspiracy hatched by Pak establishment and its local collaborators. . Khajuria impressed that the governments in Delhi and Srinagar must take all necessary measures to effectively deal with the disturbances and challenge to the integrity of the country there was an urgency to review the political and strategic formulations with a view to break the vicious cycle of violence and isolate the mischief mongers.

Dr.Ajay Chrungoo, Chairman of Panun Kashmir stated that It is time for the entire nation to recognize the "extremely regressive content of the movement which is holding whole of the Kashmir valley in its grip. It is time the whole nation delegitimizes the public mobilizations in the valley by emphatically stating that the strife in Kashmir is basically driven by an ideolological content which negates the freedom of mankind, breeds hatred and aims to destroy pluralism based on right to equality. It is time all of us reiterate our commitment to the indivisible unity of India and proclaim that nobody even the brute majority has a right to negate it. It is time message goes loud and clear that nobody has the right to change or seek exceptions on the basic structure of Constitution of India".

Dr. Chrungoo further stated that the "forces which are ruling the roost in the valley at present have already brought about the genocide of an entire community of Kashmiri Hindus. These forces have to be defeated ideologically and denied the respectability of a legitimate political movement. Government of India has to correct its policy formulations and realize that concessions to communalism and separatism have been self defeating. The situation in Kashmir cannot be salvaged through flirtations with variants of separatism and communalism there".

Dr. Teng during his presidential address asserted that Muslim separatism in its various forms including the demand for secession of Jammu and Kashmir from India and the creation of a separate Muslim sphere of power in Jammu and Kashmir is destructive of the unity of India and the secular character of its social and political organization.

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## Awesome

EjazR said:


> This is what I have been saying in private conversations. Kashmiris will only get their problem resolved when they talk to India.
> 
> Not US, not UN, not OIC not even Pakistan will help in anyway in altering their situation. Ask GoI to give them the rights that any Indian has. To reduce the military deployment and combat HR violations. And they will find that once they assert their Indian identity, Indians from all parts will support them from Delhi to Kolkata to Bangalore and Hyderabad and even Chennai.
> 
> I just hope that the plight of NE in Manipur, Tripura and Nagaland is also highlighted as they suffer from even worse HR violations but no one hears their voice.
> 
> This is the only way peace will prevail.


They are asking GoI for Azadi, not rights.


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## Awesome

EjazR said:


> *Kashmiris in Exile protest against separatist propaganda | GroundReport*
> 
> New Delhi/Jammu, August, 08 (Scoop News) &#8211; Kashmiris in Exile today made an impassioned plea for peace in Kashmir. Hundreds of Kashmiris along with Sikhs, Dogras and Muslims held a huge rally today at Jantar Mantar in New Delhi; which was joined by members of civil society as well. The internally displaced Kashmiri Pandits made a fervent appeal for peace to the youth in Kashmir and requested them to not get instigated by the rabble rousers who are hell bent upon destroying not just Kashmir but even future and lives of the young impressionable Kashmiris. They also made it clear that no solution to Kashmir issue is possible without the involvement of Kashmiri Pandits.
> 
> 
> We are an inalienable party to the Kashmir issue said Dr.L.N.Dhar a displaced Kashmiri and a member of the Kashmiri Samiti, Delhi. The government of India should identify the real criminals who are instigating the young people to come on the streets to indulge in arson and rioting. It is imperative for the government to act against such people as Massarat Alam and Asaiya Andrabi. They should be charged for murder because it is on their instigation that young people are coming out as rioters and then getting killed. There can be no peace in the valley unless the government of the day acts tough on the people who are causing such unprecedented bloodshed in the valley said Rakesh Kaul, President of the Kashmiri Samiti Delhi.
> 
> It is a welcome step that the Home Minister has said that the Government will initiate a political process in Kashmir but then the government has to understand that there isn&#8217;t just one stream of thought that it needs to engage in &#8220;a quiet dialogue&#8221; with, said Kamal Hak, National Spokesperson of Panun Kashmir. He said that the government should take on board the Buddhists, Shias, Gujjars, Dogras, Pandits, Sikhs and not just the separatists. In case the quiet dialogue doesn&#8217;t address the issues of Kashmiri Pandits then the whole process will lay waste as we have seen in the past, said Amal Magazine of Roots in Kashmir, an organization of young Kashmiri Pandits.
> 
> The protesters even sent books to the stone pelters in Kashmir saying that the light of education would remove the darkness of their ignorance and would help them know who their real enemies are. They will know how they are being used by some evil minds for their narrow parochial objectives said Radhika Kaul a Yale student who also attended the protest. It is our way of telling our brethren back in Kashmir not to let their lives go waste for someone&#8217;s evil aims. We were thrown out of our homes some 20 years back but have never resorted to violence of any kind she said.
> 
> 
> The Kashmiri Pandits have been demanding a separate homeland in Kashmir to be called Panun Kashmir (Our Kashmir).We do not want to live with people who engage in violence at the slightest pretext of perceived or real injustice. We are a peace loving community and would never indulge in such wanton acts of violence at the drop of a pin said Rakesh Gurkha, a young Kashmiri Pandit. We want to live in a peaceful Kashmir and hence our demand for a separate homeland in Kashmir is not only long due but even justified. He even questioned the ethics of the Media who he said, would criticize the security forces but did not show or write a word about the Sikh boy whose hair was cut by protestors or about the Mayor of Jaipur who was attacked and forced to return to Jaipur without the Darshan of the Holy Cave of Shiva at Amarnath. Are these less important to the media just because they aren&#8217;t Muslims, he quipped.
> 
> Meanwhile Panun Kashmir Panun Kashmir (PK) organised a Seminar in Jammu on the Topic &#8220;Making Sense of What is Happening in Kashmir" on Sunday. The Seminar was presided by Dr. Mohan Krishan Teng. an eminent political scientist of Jammu & Kashmir. The Seminar was addressed by MM. Khajuria, former Director General of Police Prof Hariom. an eminent think-tank and political writer and Dr. Ajay Chrungoo, Chairman of Panun Kashmir Shailendra Aima Senior Vice Chairman of Panun Kashmir conducted deliberations and Kuldip Raina Gen. Secretary Panun Kashmir presented the vote of thanks.
> 
> 
> M M Khajuria former Director General of Police, while speaking in the Seminar, opined that the "Quit Jammu & Kashmir" call given by Tehrik-e-Hurriyat Chief Syed Ali Shah Gellani amidst the ongoing disturbances in Kashmir exposed the political dimension of the conspiracy hatched by Pak establishment and its local collaborators. . Khajuria impressed that the governments in Delhi and Srinagar must take all necessary measures to effectively deal with the disturbances and challenge to the integrity of the country there was an urgency to review the political and strategic formulations with a view to break the vicious cycle of violence and isolate the mischief mongers.
> 
> Dr.Ajay Chrungoo, Chairman of Panun Kashmir stated that It is time for the entire nation to recognize the "extremely regressive content of the movement which is holding whole of the Kashmir valley in its grip. It is time the whole nation delegitimizes the public mobilizations in the valley by emphatically stating that the strife in Kashmir is basically driven by an ideolological content which negates the freedom of mankind, breeds hatred and aims to destroy pluralism based on right to equality. It is time all of us reiterate our commitment to the indivisible unity of India and proclaim that nobody even the brute majority has a right to negate it. It is time message goes loud and clear that nobody has the right to change or seek exceptions on the basic structure of Constitution of India".
> 
> Dr. Chrungoo further stated that the "forces which are ruling the roost in the valley at present have already brought about the genocide of an entire community of Kashmiri Hindus. These forces have to be defeated ideologically and denied the respectability of a legitimate political movement. Government of India has to correct its policy formulations and realize that concessions to communalism and separatism have been self defeating. The situation in Kashmir cannot be salvaged through flirtations with variants of separatism and communalism there".
> 
> Dr. Teng during his presidential address asserted that Muslim separatism in its various forms including the demand for secession of Jammu and Kashmir from India and the creation of a separate Muslim sphere of power in Jammu and Kashmir is destructive of the unity of India and the secular character of its social and political organization.


Look at the ToI link I posted, there were two types of groups - only the Pandits were anti-separatists, but the Khalsas and the Muslims were all asking for Azadi for Kashmir.

The Muslims were also termed as Deshdrohi.


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## Jade

EjazR said:


> This is what I have been saying in private conversations. Kashmiris will only get their problem resolved when they talk to India.
> 
> Not US, not UN, not OIC not even Pakistan will help in anyway in altering their situation. Ask GoI to give them the rights that any Indian has. To reduce the military deployment and combat HR violations. And they will find that once they assert their Indian identity, Indians from all parts will support them from Delhi to Kolkata to Bangalore and Hyderabad and even Chennai.
> 
> I just hope that the plight of NE in Manipur, Tripura and Nagaland is also highlighted as they suffer from even worse HR violations but no one hears their voice.
> 
> This is the only way peace will prevail.




That's so true; I support Kashmiris against the HR violations committed against them by the security forces. If I see the pattern of protest in Kashmir, I only see the poor handling of the situation. All the mischief elements amongst the political dispensation and security forces, however powerful, should be punished.


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## EjazR

From the TOI article


> Said activist Aditya Raj Kaul, "A small section of Kashmiri Muslims want a separate nation. They are using women and young children in this movement, and want Kashmir to be a mess. They want the administration to fail, the infrastructure to fall apart and create total chaos and make it an international issue. Peace cannot be achieved with separatists on the table. *Bring in the Sikhs, the Gujjars, Shias, Dogras, Buddhists, Pandits and let all of us decide what Kashmir wants. Theirs is not a secular movement.*"



Gujjars are sunni muslims and the shias are mostly around Kargil with about 10 percent int he valley. Both of these groups are pro-Indian.

I have seen youtube clips and majority of the protests are about HR violations. There might be a few enthusiastic Kashmiris in Delhi but by and large all over India the focus is on HR violations.

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## Awesome

EjazR said:


> From the TOI article
> 
> 
> Gujjars are sunni muslims and the shias are mostly around Kargil with about 10 percent int he valley. Both of these groups are pro-Indian.
> 
> I have seen youtube clips and majority of the protests are about HR violations. There might be a few enthusiastic Kashmiris in Delhi but by and large all over India the focus is on HR violations.


So say the pro-India groups... But the rest of them clearly said they want Azadi for all Kashmiris. Pandits don't come because they don't want to come to Kashmir any more. They can come and vote for India in the plebiscite.

Plebiscite is the only way to know for sure who is with who and only India is afraid of plebiscite.

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## parasite

Asim Aquil said:


> The Muslims were also termed as Deshdrohi.



Correction--> Those who are against *The Republic of INDIA*......irrespective of Colour, Caste, Creed, Religion etc..................

Of-course those demand separation are Deshdrohi........

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## parasite

Asim Aquil said:


> So say the pro-India groups... But the rest of them clearly said they want Azadi for all Kashmiris. Pandits don't come because they don't want to come to Kashmir any more. They can come and vote for India in the plebiscite.
> 
> Plebiscite is the only way to know for sure who is with who and only India is afraid of plebiscite.



INDIA works in it's interest...and a NON-binding resolution is not in Interest of INDIA..........


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## EjazR

Asim,

Dal Khalsa is still "fighting peacefully" for an independant sikh state Khalistan. The GoI allows it to do its political activities provided its peaceful. There is no ban on it since 1998. But that doesn't mean that Sikhs in India are now represented by it.

Sure, many valley Kashmiris are pro-independence and its is unfortunate that even the separatist leadership has failed them. But IMO and this I say completely objectively and looking at the historical background, the separatists in Kashmir will end up like Dal Khalsa. Advocating for an independent J&K but hardly representatives of the majority of the residents within it. Barring ofcourse some sort of Iraq or Yugoslavia style interventions by the "great powers".

This was kind of accepted in the 2008 elections itself. However HR violations are the oxygen for separatists, if the GoI and GoJ&K does not realize this then the situation will get worse and separatists will gain more support. The reality is that it is only HR violations on which separatists can build their agenda on.

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## Jade

Asim Aquil said:


> So say the pro-India groups... But the rest of them clearly said they want Azadi for all Kashmiris. Pandits don't come because they don't want to come to Kashmir any more. They can come and vote for India in the plebiscite.
> 
> Plebiscite is the only way to know for sure who is with who and only India is afraid of plebiscite.



Azadi has different connotationsis it Azadi from HR violation? Or is it Azadi from the poverty and hunger? Or is it Azadi from something else? 

As for plebiscite, this is not going to cut ice and it is a lost cause. Have not you observed your own government not demanding plebiscite? Have not you made any attempt to understand your government position?


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## navtrek

Asim Aquil said:


> Another youth dies, curfew in Srinagar - Hindustan Times
> 
> 
> 
> Indians are purposely targeting the very young in hopes that parents would back off.



Not really nobody is targeting nobody these young men are fed up of lack of economic opportunities and frustrated with restricted freedom and underdevelopment.

so casualties are due to collateral damage on police firing to control rioting stone pelting mobs. 

My heart felt condolences to the families who have lost there dear ones to somebody's play of politics.


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## Iggy

Asim Aquil said:


> Another youth dies, curfew in Srinagar - Hindustan Times
> 
> Indians are purposely targeting the very young in hopes that parents would back off.



No its not the case ..here is an extract from the link one you gave to us.. 



> The protesters wanted to exploit the situation in Jammu & Kashmir. They put the women and young boys in front of the demonstrations so that thesecurity forces don't hit back hard


.

Female Protesters in J&K put Security Forces in Fix


You can imagine what kind of assholes will put women and children infront and attack hiding behind them

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## ejaz007

seiko said:


> No its not the case ..here is an extract from the link one you gave to us..
> 
> .
> 
> Female Protesters in J&K put Security Forces in Fix
> 
> 
> You can imagine what kind of assholes will put women and children infront and attack hiding behind them



One can also imagine what kind of an asshole will kill 9 year old kid.


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## ejaz007

*Kashmir protest reaches social networks*
IANS, Aug 6, 2010, 11.50am IST


SRINAGAR: The streets of Kashmir Valley are not the only places burning with angry protests over the civilian killings. The rage has also spilled over into the virtual world where youngsters are venting their pent up sentiments. 

Youngsters aged 15-25 are using their personal or community internet pages to express their anger against what they see as human rights abuses. Social networking sites like Facebook, Orkut, YouTube and many such web platforms have turned into a new battleground for the angry young generation of the valley. 

With nearly 50 people dying in less than seven weeks - most of them in firing by security forces - many such voices are proliferating on the internet. 

"I Protest", a community page created by an unknown user, has over 2,500 members -- Kashmiris as well as non-Kashmiris. It is described as "a campaign for international awareness against human rights abuse in Indian Kashmir. 

The page says, "I protest for being treated as a commodity, for being a slave in the dawn of the 21st century; I protest to be killed for protesting against abuse and basic human rights." 

A user status on the "I Protest" page reads, "This brutal government has failed to communicate with people and done nothing to stop this unabated genocide. The government which came to power with high hopes has no right to be there, sadly lost its support & confidence. Shame on them." 

A similar page, "I protest against the atrocities on Kashmiris, has over 2,100 members. "Kashmir Dispatch" that serves more like a news portal giving one line updates about the current situation, protests and news photographs has over 5,000 members. 

The virtual protesters have not spared Chief Minister Omar Abdullah. A page, "We hate Omar Abdullah...A politically immature person!," has nearly 1,500 members. 

Zahra IV, a user, poses a rhyme of a question for the chief minister on the site. "What do you feel when you see young boys dying on the street? Who do you pray for at night before you go to sleep? What do you feel when you look in the mirror? Are you proud? How do you sleep while the rest of us cry? How do you dream when a mother has no chance to say goodbye (to her son)? How do you walk with your head held high? Can you even look me in the eye? And tell me why?" 

The virtual rebellion of angry Kashmiris is also directed at Hurriyat separatist leaders like Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Mirwaiz Omar Farooq and others for their "failure to deliver 

"Internet is an important tool. The youth of Kashmir are expressing dissent through all the means and tools at their disposal," said Zamir Tajammul Qadri, 22, who uses an iPhone to update his status throughout the day. 

"The young generation of online rebels should be an eye-opener for the tech-savvy young chief minister. He should be, and I am sure he is, reading all this. He was supposed to connect with the constituency of youngsters and this shows he has failed utterly," Qadri said. 

While the online protests have been peaceful, on the streets the story has been different. The unrest shows no signs of relent, authorities have clamped down on stone-pelting protestors, arresting dozens and putting the entire valley under curfew. 
Despite restrictions and shoot-at-sight orders, men, women and children have been taking to the streets. Kashmir, where a bloody 20-year-old separatist war had shown signs of abating only last year, is on the edge once again. 

Kashmir protest reaches social networks - Social Media - Tech - The Times of India


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## ejaz007

Kashmiri mourners carry a coffin containing the body of Mohammad Rafiq Bangroo, a Kashmiri youth, during his funeral in Srinagar June 20, 2010. A Kashmiri, Javid Ahmad Malla, was killed and six others injured in Srinagar on Sunday when Indian government forces fired bullets at thousands of angry demonstrators protesting over the killing of Bangroo by police, witnesses said. The violent protests broke out in Kashmir's summer capital during the funeral procession of 24-year-old Bangroo, who died on in a hospital late on Saturday, days after being injured in a beating allegedly by paramilitary forces.

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## Iggy

ejaz007 said:


> One can also imagine what kind of an asshole will kill 9 year old kid.



Ejaz (not you ) pointed out in another thread that the kid was died in the stampade between protesters and police..what was the kid doing in the protest mate?whose fault is that??anyway an Inquiry has been ordered and wait for the resuly till then dont belive the nonsense you media said about police out batton inside the throat of a nine year old..

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## ejaz007

Women cry during the funeral of Mohammad Rafiq Bangroo, a Kashmiri youth, in Srinagar June 20, 2010. A Kashmiri, Javid Ahmad Malla, was killed and six others injured in Srinagar on Sunday when Indian government forces fired bullets at thousands of angry demonstrators protesting over the killing of Bangroo by police, witnesses said. The violent protests broke out in Kashmir's summer capital during the funeral procession of 24-year-old Bangroo, who died on in a hospital late on Saturday, days after being injured in a beating allegedly by paramilitary forces.


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## fawwaxs

Curfew reimposed in Kashmir after protester's death 

SRINAGAR: Police and paramilitary forces on Monday reimposed a curfew in Srinagar after the overnight death of a protester.

Shops and businesses had opened on Sunday for the first time in two weeks after the Kashmir valley was brought to a standstill by violent protests and the deaths of scores of civilians.

The territory has been rocked by unrest since a teenage student was killed by a police tear-gas shell on June 11.

About 50 people have been killed as the security forces regularly opened fire to control the angry separatist demonstrations triggered by each fatality.

Some 33 people &#8212;many of them young men or teenagers &#8212;have died in the last ten days, the deadliest phase of violence for two years.

&#8220;We had to reimpose the curfew to prevent protests after the death of a protester,&#8221; a police officer said, asking not to be named.

He said the victim, a Srinagar resident, was injured last week during clashes and died in a hospital late Sunday.


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## ejaz007

seiko said:


> Ejaz (not you ) pointed out in another thread that the kid was died in the stampade between protesters and police..what was the kid doing in the protest mate?whose fault is that??anyway an Inquiry has been ordered and wait for the resuly till then dont belive the nonsense you media said about police out batton inside the throat of a nine year old..



That same Mr. Ejaz even made out a UN resolution where by India had been assured a lot before UN plebescite. When challenged that no such UN resolution exists he stated that assurances were given to India. So he does come out with lots of things normally imaginary.


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## Spring Onion

ejaz007 said:


> One can also imagine what kind of an asshole will kill 9 year old kid.



Yeh and the terrorist Indian army @$$ holes think that a 9 year old kid is frustrated due unemployment and not due to Indian terrorism in Kashmir

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## Iggy

ejaz007 said:


> That same Mr. Ejaz even made out a UN resolution where by India had been assured a lot before UN plebescite. When challenged that no such UN resolution exists he stated that assurances were given to India. So he does come out with lots of things normally imaginary.



I meant about the Ejaz R the poster here  ..here is the link posted by Ejaz R

Kashmir Images :: Details


> An eight-year-old boy, Sameer Ahmed Rah, who was injured during a clash between protesters and security forces in Batamaloo area succumbed to his injuries in a Srinagar hospital. While residents alleged Sameer was beaten by police, police said he was injured in the stampede when security forces took action against the protesters. Meanwhile, the violence in the valley showed no signs of abating as an angry mob burned down the police station in Rajpora.


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## Dash

Asim Aquil said:


> There is no justification to kill a nine year old, the Kashmiris want the Indian rule from Kashmir to end. Sooner or later, every household in Kashmir will start fighting the Indian security forces.


To reach what...Salvation?..


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## Iggy

Jana said:


> Yeh and the terrorist Indian army @$$ holes think that a 9 year old kid is frustrated due unemployment and not due to Indian terrorism in Kashmir



Yea read the propoganda articles more and more it will help you a lot

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## brahmastra

Jana said:


> Yeh and the terrorist Indian army @$$ holes think that a 9 year old kid is frustrated due unemployment and not due to Indian terrorism in Kashmir



Its not Indian Army but its as$ hole ISI and as$hole isi backed separatist are responsible for this death.

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## EjazR

This is rich coming from this Israeli forces"lawyer". 

The reality is that it is Israel that uses helicopter gunships and air force raids on civilian populations. It is Israel that treats Gaza as an open air prison. And the UN identifies territories under Israeli control as Occupied territories. There is no comparison between Israel and India in this regard.

The army is by and large absent from civilian areas except when there is an operation going. Before1989, there was no army prescence in civilian areas. Even in the current situation it is only the local police and CRPF that is involved. Neither the Army nor the Border forces were present.

In India that army is under the civilian govt. and if some "general" makes irrational statments like this, he would be liable for some serious questioning. This just shows how Israeli-Indian relationship even on a military level has to be watched carefully.


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## gurjot

Jana said:


> Yeh and the terrorist Indian army @$$ holes think that a 9 year old kid is frustrated due unemployment and not due to Indian terrorism in Kashmir



that army is made of indian ppl.if u cant give respect,atleast u can talk sensibly.i dont think u will feel good if same thing is said to pak army.


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## bc040400065

*Curfew reimposed in Indian Kashmir*
(AFP)  2 hours ago

SRINAGAR, India  Police and paramilitary forces on Monday reimposed a curfew in Srinagar, the main town in the disputed region of Indian Kashmir, after the overnight death of a protester.

Shops and businesses had opened on Sunday for the first time in two weeks after the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley was brought to a standstill by violent protests and the deaths of scores of civilians.

*The territory has been rocked by unrest since a teenage student was killed by a police tear-gas shell on June 11.*

*About 50 people have been killed as the security forces regularly opened fire to control the angry separatist demonstrations triggered by each fatality.*
*Some 33 people -- many of them young men or teenagers -- have died in the last ten days, the deadliest phase of violence for two years.*

Muslim separatists have fought a 20-year insurgency in Indian Kashmir against rule from New Delhi.

"We had to reimpose the curfew to prevent protests after the death of a protester," a police officer said, asking not to be named.

He said the victim, a Srinagar resident, was injured last week during clashes and died in a hospital late Sunday.

The mountainous region is held in part by Pakistan and India, but claimed in full by both, and has been the cause of two of the three wars the countries have fought since independence from Britain more than half a century ago.

AFP: Curfew reimposed in Indian Kashmir


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## HariSeldon

foxbat said:


> So very true. People dissatisfied with the state govt are simply escalating it up to the central govt. Thats what happens in a democracy. This though wont be understood by people who have lived under a dictatorship until recently.



Leave it Bro. They wouldn't understand. When there was problem in Karachi, Central minister was telling the media that shoot@sight order is given. Isn't it this should be comming from state minister or CM?


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## GentlemanObserver

riju78 said:


> So how can I ask u that question please??? Sorry for being off topic. If I post 10 different articles abt something happening in Pakistan when there is a riot and biggest natural disaster in the history of my country wouldn't u be asking me the same??



Your telling me that certain factions within a country will not attempt to capitalise on a moment of distraction when the government and military are pre-occupied with a national calamity and a insurgency within our cities and across the western front?

Try being a bit mature, will you!

---------- Post added at 03:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:31 PM ----------




Asim Aquil said:


> Plebiscite is the only way to know for sure who is with who and only India is afraid of plebiscite.



Because the know the result!


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## Awesome

HariSeldon said:


> Leave it Bro. They wouldn't understand. When there was problem in Karachi, Central minister was telling the media that shoot@sight order is given. Isn't it this should be comming from state minister or CM?


Hahaha @ Azadi has different connotations... Only in India delusional dictionaries!!!!!

They all want to break away from India and create a separate nation.

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## Awesome

seiko said:


> Ejaz (not you ) pointed out in another thread that the kid was died in the stampade between protesters and police..what was the kid doing in the protest mate?whose fault is that??anyway an Inquiry has been ordered and wait for the resuly till then dont belive the nonsense you media said about police out batton inside the throat of a nine year old..


Ejaz didn't point that out, CRPF chief said that.

He is the accused, will you seriously take the word of the accused as the truth?


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## foxbat

Asim Aquil said:


> Hahaha @ Azadi has different connotations... Only in India delusional dictionaries!!!!!
> 
> They all want to break away from India and create a separate nation.



I also want to buy a merc S class. But you dont always get what you want. 

Anyway the school I went to did talk about different kinds of freedom

Freedom of expression
Freedom of thought
Freedom to travel anywhere in the country
Freedom to practise my own religion

What it did not talk about was the freedom to split my country.. And thats the freedom no one in India has any business demanding.. And knowing the members on this forum, that includes Kashmir..

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## gurjot

Asim Aquil said:


> Hahaha @ Azadi has different connotations... Only in India delusional dictionaries!!!!!
> 
> They all want to break away from India and create a separate nation.



if they want azaadi,then y r u xcited


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## Dash

Paladin said:


> Your telling me that certain factions within a country will not attempt to capitalise on a moment of distraction when the government and military are pre-occupied with a national calamity and a insurgency within our cities and across the western front?
> 
> Try being a bit mature, will you!
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:31 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Because the know the result!


and whats the result?, that Kashmiris will want to be with Pakistan?, or an independent state?....

There will be no result in this pablicite, stay happy with present and you may prevent history to change its course.!


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## Iggy

Asim Aquil said:


> Ejaz didn't point that out, CRPF chief said that.
> 
> He is the accused, will you seriously take the word of the accused as the truth?



I meant about the Ejaz R, one of our poster here Asim..yes both are allegations for now..seriously you think Indian police will put a bamboo stick inside the mouth of a child which ruptured his lungs??  and for god sake who will bring a kid in to the riot than some cowards who want him to be dead to increase the anger of the people

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## foxbat

Asim Aquil said:


> Ejaz didn't point that out, CRPF chief said that.
> 
> He is the *accused*, will you seriously take the word of the accused as the truth?



Didnt know in Pakistan the head of a security force is the defendent for any such accident/violation.

Is COAS Kayani being prosecuted for the air attack that killed 71 civilians in April?
BBC News - Pakistan 'army air strike kills dozens of civilians'

Asim, you are the super duper Mod here.. Dont sensationalize


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## Awesome

seiko said:


> I meant about the Ejaz R, one of our poster here Asim..yes both are allegations for now..seriously you think Indian police will put a bamboo stick inside the mouth of a child which ruptured his lungs??  and for god sake who will bring a kid in to the riot than some cowards who want him to be dead to increase the anger of the people


The kid wasn't even part of the protest, he was a bystander.

Indian security forces cannot be believed after they have done so many fake encounters and claimed medals for them.


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## Iggy

Asim Aquil said:


> The kid wasn't even part of the protest, he was a bystander.
> 
> Indian security forces cannot be believed after they have done so many fake encounters and claimed medals for them.



Asim every fake encounter in Army is being probed and accused has been punished and some of them are under investigation too..it was found by our own army and government not some international organizations..so cut the crap about claiming medals for fake encounters shall we??Who told you he was a bystander??..if you are father,will you send your child to watch a protest or buy something when curfew was imposed and a place is in turmoil??The presence of that child in the middle of the protest itself is fishy my mate


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## you are fired

Asim Aquil said:


> There is no justification to kill a nine year old, the Kashmiris want the Indian rule from Kashmir to end. Sooner or later, every household in Kashmir will start fighting the Indian security forces.



can you tell me how will you justify killing in Baluchistan 

they want freedom from Pakistan 

what is your view on that freedom fight there from last 40 years


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## brahmastra

before few month, Kasmir burnt about death of a 19 year old boy, later revealed that it was love triangle and was murdered by his friends but as usual they put blame on IA. 

So, hold your horses and let the inquiry finish.

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## GreenStar

> can you tell me how will you justify killing in Baluchistan



That is going off topic...make another thread..


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## GreenStar

> Asim every fake encounter in Army is being probed and accused has been punished and some of them are under investigation too..



The fact that there is fake encounters used by some members in your Army...just shows that the conduct of your Army is not good. So the boy which some articles have claimed in which his lungs were ruptured can be true.....as your Army..or police force is capable of such feats.


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> The fact that there is fake encounters used by some members in your Army...just shows that the conduct of your Army is not good. So the boy which some articles have claimed in which his lungs were ruptured can be true.....as your Army..or police force is capable of such feats.



What??dude every country has incidents like this..there are soldiers in different countries are under investigation and punished for raping,assaults ,killings which include US,UK and Pakistan too..does that mean the conduct of their Army is not good??dont bring nonsense arguments here..


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## GreenStar

> .if you are father,will you send your child to watch a protest or buy something when curfew was imposed and a place is in turmoil??The presence of that child in the middle of the protest itself is fishy my mate



And If you are a soilder....you should think before you shoot. Maybe he was blind....if so why was he accepted in your Army. Any decent human.......would think twice, before killing or hurting a child.....But looks like your soilders......don't fit in that catergory......what is it now 55 people dead..


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## brahmastra

^^ just give answer of the question.


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## GreenStar

> dont bring nonsense arguments here



And don't get emotional.....its fact...



> dude every country has incidents like this..there are soldiers in different countries are under investigation and punished for raping,assaults ,killings which include US,UK and Pakistan too..




Sure but you don't get UK soilders raping...or killing there own people....just to get medals....or look good....that is very pathetic in my opinion.


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## GreenStar

> if you are father,will you send your child to watch a protest or buy something when curfew was imposed and a place is in turmoil??The presence of that child in the middle of the protest itself is fishy my mate



Even if the Father did send his child.....the Army is still responsible.....simply because he pulled the trigger. Your Paramiltary force seems to be well under trained that it can't tell the difference bewteen a child and a Adult.


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> And If you are a soilder....you should think before you shoot. Maybe he was blind....if so why was he accepted in your Army. Any decent human.......would think twice, before killing or hurting a child.....But looks like your soilders......don't fit in that catergory......what is it now 55 people dead..



It is never prooven the soldiers killed the child now you are thinking in a biased version lets the investigation finished..no new protest or firing have occured in the valley those who died are from previous injuries and all of them are not killed by police firing but some are because of tear gas shelling and in the stampade..

And you said a police man is an human being, and think like this way..He is sorrounded by the people who is violent and for self protection he has to fire..can you blame him for that??Ejaz gave you links about how many security perosnal has been injured in this protest..


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## you are fired

well yes here is Indian govt fault we dealing them soft hand nobody is saying about Kashmir Hindus how badly there were killed and robbed and they left there homes 

we should deal as china is dealing 

we should learn from china


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## GreenStar

> It is never prooven the soldiers killed the child now you are thinking in a biased version lets the investigation finished



Fair enough....let the investigation finish then we can discuss the outcome of the situation.


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> And don't get emotional.....its fact...
> Sure but you don't get UK soilders raping...or killing there own people....just to get medals....or look good....that is very pathetic in my opinion.



Proove they asked for medal or gave any medals for fake encounter or raping..and I dont have to give proof of British soldiers conducts ..our history is full of it..anyway its offtopic..i am not getting emotional you are certifying an entire army with the conduct of some ..its like calling Britain a racist nation because some people are racist and calling Pakistan a terrorist nation because some people inducted in terrorist activities..hope you get my point and care to answer my question about what that kid doing in the middle of protest??

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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> Even if the Father did send his child.....the Army is still responsible.....simply because he pulled the trigger. Your Paramiltary force seems to be well under trained that it can't tell the difference bewteen a child and a Adult.



Again no bullet wounds was on that childs body..it was clear enough from the link Ejaz provided you..you need to read some before ranting ..


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## you are fired

GreenStar said:


> Even if the Father did send his child.....the Army is still responsible.....simply because he pulled the trigger. Your Paramiltary force seems to be well under trained that it can't tell the difference bewteen a child and a Adult.



if you are allowing your sun to play with gun then its your fault not gun 

well do you know how many children are taring in Pakistan terror group as an suicide bomber


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## GreenStar

> And you said a police man is an human being, and think like this way..He is sorrounded by the people who is violent and for self protection he has to fire



Well that is the fault of your goverment...for not putting more Police in the Area....not the People's fault...And further more how do you not know that your Paramilitary force did not have the Mens Rea of actually wanting to fire the bullet...just for the sake of it.....As Asim says...there has been a lot of fake encounters...so its bit hard to take the Credibillity of your troops.


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> Well that is the fault of your goverment...for not putting more Police in the Area....not the People's fault...*And further more how do you not know that your Paramilitary force did not have the Mens Rea of actually wanting to fire the bullet.*..just for the sake of it.....As Asim says...there has been a lot of fake encounters...so its bit hard to take the Credibillity of your troops.



 dont have any more argument??try harder


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## GreenStar

> Again no bullet wounds was on that childs body..it was clear enough from the link Ejaz provided you..you need to read some before ranting ..



Ranting is where someone is angry and shout's while he speaks....I am merely showing my views.....calm down.


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> Ranting is where someone is angry and shout's while he speaks....I am merely showing my views.....calm down.



ranting is where when some one has no idea what he is talking about..the above is a good example of it ..cheers


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## GreenStar

> well do you know how many children are taring in Pakistan terror group as an suicide bomber



Like I said before to you...that is another topic...make another thread.

---------- Post added at 11:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:14 AM ----------




> ranting is where when some one has no idea what he is talking about..the above is a good example of it ..cheers



What ever suits your boat....your opinion not mine.


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## GreenStar

> our history is full of it..anyway its offtopic



I thought's so.....but we did rule you for quite some time....but that is going off topic.


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## GreenStar

> hope you get my point and care to answer my question about what that kid doing in the middle of protest??



We both don't know for certain...but If I have to make a guess...I would say he was curious...as all kids our.....its in there nature....however that still does not give you any right to harm them..just because they were in a wrong place..in the wrong time.


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## foxbat

GreenStar said:


> Well that is the fault of your goverment...for not putting more Police in the Area....not the People's fault...And further more how do you not know that your Paramilitary force did not have the Mens Rea of actually wanting to fire the bullet...just for the sake of it.....As Asim says...there has been a lot of fake encounters...so its bit hard to take the Credibillity of your troops.



Its absolutely the rioters fault. When you assault an armed police or para military force person and you come out of it alive, its your good forutune and should not be your expectation. Try even getting down from your car and walking towards the police car while getting a traffic ticket in the US or UK. Might end up getting shot and there wont be any questions asked. If at all, the rioters in India and Pakistan get much more freedom than they should.

And how do you know he wanted to fire. You are accusing so you own the burden of proof. Specially when unlike Indians, you really do not have a standing to question India's handling of a riot in India.

And really no Indian Police/Para military person needs a certificate of credibility from a British, Pakistani or Pakistani British.

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## GreenStar

> if you are allowing your sun to play with gun then its your fault not gun



Just to clarify..that the protesters don't have guns....so your point does not come into to the picture.


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## GreenStar

> Specially when unlike Indians, you really do not have a standing to question India's handling of a riot in India.



It a public forum...I can do what I like...as it is my opinion.....


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## you are fired

GreenStar said:


> Just to clarify..that the protesters don't have guns....so your point does not come into to the picture.



well you know better what child was doing there in the small age they know politics is that a crap ?

Pakistan supported hard group are using them 

don't you think how many time world leader talk about the using of children for terror


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## GreenStar

> And really no Indian Police/Para military person needs a certificate of credibility from a British, Pakistani or Pakistani British



Hhahah..Wasn't giving my certificate...just my opinion....there is a difference.


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## GreenStar

> Pakistan supported hard group are using them
> 
> don't you think how many time world leader talk about the using of children for terror



That is the third time that you are going off topic..its against forum rules....careful Mods might ban you....just giving friendly advice.


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## Iggy

GreenStar said:


> We both don't know for certain...but If I have to make a guess...I would say he was curious...as all kids our.....its in there nature....however that still does not give you any right to harm them..just because they were in a wrong place..in the wrong time.



Lets assume your guess is right and kid got in to the stampede..then how come the army has to blamed for it??


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## GreenStar

> .then how come the army has to blamed for it??
> 
> 
> 
> That is because it is the duty of the law force to prevent such stampedes if it does occur. Example..but it is going off topic...is the Hillsborough disaster.
Click to expand...


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## Jade

Asim Aquil said:


> Hahaha @ Azadi has different connotations... Only in India delusional dictionaries!!!!!
> 
> They all want to break away from India and create a separate nation.



Living in a delusional world wont help matters. The reality is Kashmir will remain a part of India. The only solution to Kashmir problem is a political solution inside the ambit of Indian Constitution. The Pakistan government has come to the terms and it is time the PDF members also accept the reality.


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## you are fired

GreenStar said:


> .then how come the army has to blamed for it??
> 
> 
> 
> That is because it is the duty of the law force to prevent such stampedes if it does occur. Example..but it is going off topic...is the Hillsborough disaster.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> do you mean in England its army duty for law and rule then what is police role there
> 
> well fact is children are using by terror group
> 
> well if you check you can also see how many teenager were arrested in England,USA they were linked with terror group in Pakistan
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## SekrutYakhni

Kashmir is like a burning moon where innocents are fighting for just and independence. I have seen wars, floods, earthquakes, drought etc but the fight in Kashmir is a fight between two asteroids. The magnitude of that fight is beyond imaginations. The atrocities committed by India makes me wonder! Where is God? Where is His just? 
Anyways, I hope Kashmir becomes an independent state--

*Freedom fighters!*

Ya Allah, Kashmir ko aik bewakoof mulk say nijat day!
AMEN!


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## GentlemanObserver

Dash said:


> and whats the result?, that Kashmiris will want to be with Pakistan?, or an independent state?....
> 
> There will be no result in this pablicite, stay happy with present and you may prevent history to change its course.!



I would rather it be an independent state, less baggage to deal with if you know what i mean. 



> There will be no result in this pablicite, stay happy with present and you may prevent history to change its course.!



My, My... what conviction. Sorry but last i checked neither of us speak for the people of Kashmir, just give them a chance to speak, India/Pak or independence... Either way...


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## you are fired

saad445566 said:


> Kashmir is like a burning moon where innocents are fighting for just and independence. I have seen wars, floods, earthquakes, drought etc but the fight in Kashmir is a fight between two asteroids. The magnitude of that fight is beyond imaginations. The atrocities committed by India makes me wonder! Where is God? Where is His just?
> Anyways, I hope Kashmir becomes an independent state--
> 
> *Freedom fighters!*
> 
> Ya Allah, Kashmir ko aik bewakoof mulk say nijat day!
> AMEN!



Freedom fight in Baluchistan 

pray for them also 

Ya Allah, Baluchistan ko aik bewakoof mulk say nijat day!
AMEN!

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## foxbat

GreenStar said:


> It a public forum...I can do what I like...as it is my opinion.....



On the forum, sure, any one can say anything... But for a constructive debate, if you are accusing someone, be ready to provide proof. Else anyway, there are plenty of unsubstantiated accusations to go around. But refering to them will take us off topic and since most of them are about Pakistan supporting terrorists, I may end up getting banned...


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## indianpatriot

SurvivoR said:


> Inshallah... Kashmir will meet its destiny... Freedom from the terrorist state of hindu india. It is also heartening to see the Dal Khalsa joining in protest. The Sikhs have a score to settle as well, the desecration of the Golden Temple by the indian army.



whom should you and we take revenge from...should Hindus take revenge from the heirs of the ghori and gazni for looting and illing Hindus and converting them to Muslims coz all south Asian Muslims were Hindus before....or we should take from Britain for capturing India and looting it for centuries....or we should take from radicals in Pakistan for sending mujaheddin and creating havoc in Indian cities killing thousands of Indians every year....this is a human world....bloodshed has happened in past and its inevitable to stop similar bloodshed in future....because we still think revenge as our key to satisfy our failed ego..and for your intention to create a cheap hindu vs sikh flame war on this thread...there is a difference between *ISLAMIC* Republic of Pakistan and REPUBLIC of India- a secular and free democracy...for every1 and from every1...


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## foxbat

GreenStar said:


> Hhahah..Wasn't giving my certificate...just my opinion....there is a difference.



Yeah.. Opinion too...


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## Dash

Guys, somebody is living in denial, why are we still replying????...

Its completely upto us to do what we want in that part of territory. I am sure HRM of UN has summonned Indian prime minister for commiting heneous act..LOL!!


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## amit30

Jana said:


> Yeh and the *terrorist Indian army* @$$ holes think that a 9 year old kid is frustrated due unemployment and not due to Indian terrorism in Kashmir



I can call whole Pakistan terrorist now whole world say that .... 

but I dnt believe those while dogs, so lets talk sensibly

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## SekrutYakhni

you are fired said:


> Freedom fight in Baluchistan
> 
> pray for them also
> 
> Ya Allah, Baluchistan ko aik bewakoof mulk say nijat day!
> AMEN!


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## foxbat

saad445566 said:


> Kashmir is like a burning moon where innocents are fighting for just and independence. I have seen wars, floods, earthquakes, drought etc but the fight in Kashmir is a fight between two asteroids. The magnitude of that fight is beyond imaginations. The atrocities committed by India makes me wonder! Where is God? Where is His just?
> Anyways, I hope Kashmir becomes an independent state--
> 
> *Freedom fighters!*
> 
> Ya Allah, Kashmir ko aik bewakoof mulk say nijat day!
> AMEN!



Allah bhi bewakoofi bhari dua/bad-dua kabool nahin karta. Agar karta hota to sabhi ameeron ke ghar gir chuke hote...


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## amjath

My dear Pakistani Brothers pl look what is happening inside your country Karachi, NWF, Baluchistan every were problems your country man leaving Pakistan migrating to western countries first control what you are having then you dream , How many war we fought ? We want to leave peace there is some anti national element provoking youth to through stones on security forces. Actually security forces are protecting Kashmirs from outside terrorist losing their life to give protection to our Nation we salute them Kashmir is part of India after one million years also it will remains part of India


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## amit30

amjath said:


> *My dear Pakistani Brothers pl look what is happening inside your country Karachi, NWF, Baluchistan every were problems your country man leaving Pakistan migrating to western countries first control what you are having then you dream* , How many war we fought ? We want to leave peace there is some anti national element provoking youth to through stones on security forces. Actually security forces are protecting Kashmirs from outside terrorist losing their life to give protection to our Nation we salute them Kashmir is part of India after one million years also it will remains part of India



Dude how can they talk about their problem if you talk about them so will be ban from PDF , they are just happy with abusing India and Indian problems


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## GreenStar

> My dear Pakistani Brothers pl look what is happening inside your country Karachi, NWF, Baluchistan every were problems your country man leaving Pakistan migrating to western countries first control what you are having then you dream , How many war we fought



That is off topic...make another thread about Pakistan....this is about Kashmir.


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## GreenStar

> But for a constructive debate, if you are accusing someone, be ready to provide proof



You are not making sense....you said that I have no right to question India....and I replied that its a Public forum..so I can do what I like.....was that simple enough for you....Lol.


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## GreenStar

> Yeah.. Opinion too



Great deduction I should commend you...for your great obervation skills.....keep up the good work.

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## foxbat

GreenStar said:


> You are not making sense....you said that I have no right to question India....and I replied that its a Public forum..so I can do what I like.....was that simple enough for you....Lol.



Absolutely.. You can question all you want. Not being an Indian citizen, the GoI is not answerable to you. Thats what I was trying to say.


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## GreenStar

> Absolutely.. You can question all you want. Not being an Indian citizen, the GoI is not answerable to you. Thats what I was trying to say.



You question is invalid..the Goverment of India is not in this forum...so my question was not directed at them...But at you guys....the Indian members. Howvever is that the best reply you have.....how dissapointing....every Pakistani Member can say the same.....when you attack there country....tsk tsk.

But like I said within this forum..not in India....I can say what ever I like....as long as its not abusive....do you understand what I am saying......or shall I water it down for you....LoL.


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## foxbat

GreenStar said:


> You question is invalid..the Goverment of India is not in this forum...so my question was not directed at them...But at you guys....the Indian members. Howvever is that the best reply you have.....how dissapointing....every Pakistani Member can say the same.....when you attack there country....tsk tsk.
> 
> But like I said within this forum..not in India....I can say what ever I like....as long as its not abusive....do you understand what I am saying......or shall I water it down for you....LoL.



I didnt question you at all...And Indian members are also not answerable to you.. Its you who is laying down an accusation about someone shooting someone just because he wanted to. So you should go ahead and provide the backup to that. Not upto Indian Govt or Indians to defend that.

And frankly my dear star, you dissapointment doesnt mean jack because Indians and Pakistanis continuously dissappoint each others. And that includes people of Indian or Pakistani origins. As they say, you can take a Pakistani out of Pakistan but you can not take Pakistan out of a Pakistani ..

And the reply is defined by the question, or havent you heard... Ask a stupid question ....


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## indian_for_peace

In my view, These seperatist are bunch of intolerant muslims and should be dealt with the way they have been. They are being misled by leaders for their selfish reasons. I consider kashmir issue to be a war of values. Where on one side is India ,a secular , democratic , inclusive country , and on other these bunch of youth are rioting, spreading venom in the name of religion,killing kashmiri pundits. They have no logic to support their ideology except religion. And Indian constitution is against it. All those who are behind these unrest are dangerous for values that we cherish. For restoration of peace , measures taken by GOI are commandable and killings of rioters is justified.period.


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## EjazR

*Asia Times Online :: India draws a line over Kashmir*

By Sudha Ramachandran

BANGALORE - A statement on Kashmir that the United Nations press office issued recently has ruffled feathers in India, forcing UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon's office to clarify that the offending words were not uttered by the secretary general himself.

Sent via e-mail on July 28 to a handful of reporters, the statement said that the "secretary general is concerned over the prevailing security situation there [in the Kashmir Valley] over the past month". It called on all parties to show restraint and while welcoming the recent resumption of dialogue between India and Pakistan at the level of foreign ministers, the e-mail said the secretary general "encourages both sides to rekindle the spirit of the composite dialogue, which was initiated in 2004".

The expression of concern came in the wake of unrest in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir (J&K) over the past two months that has claimed the lives of about 51 people, mainly civilians. While India is engaging in talks with Pakistan, it has suspended the composite dialogue since the bloody Pakistan-linked attacks on the Indian city of Mumbai in 2008 as Delhi believes Islamabad has not acted robustly enough to dismantle the infrastructure of terrorism on its soil.

An incensed India asked the UN for an explanation for the "gratuitous advice". The secretary general's office quickly responded by playing down the e-mail, describing it as "guidance" rather than a statement by the Ban. "The Spokesperson's Office released to the media guidance which was prepared by the UN Secretariat, and that seems to have been taken out of context. This was not a statement of the Secretary General," the secretary general's spokesperson said at a media briefing.

India is one of the largest contributors to UN peacekeeping missions worldwide and is seeking a permanent seat in the UN Security Council.

India's response to the "guidance" has been criticized as rather excessive. But it has a long history.

The UN's role in the India-Pakistan conflict over disputed Kashmir has raised hackles in Delhi for decades. Delhi has been opposed to the UN, indeed any external attempt to resolve the conflict. It has been of the view that while UN resolutions have kept secessionist sentiments alive in Kashmir, arms supplied by Western powers to Pakistan have fueled the latter's military adventurism vis-a-vis India and encouraged it to pursue the military rather than the dialogue option with Delhi.

However, it was India that first took the problem to the UN Security Council.

Following Pakistan's aggression on the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir in October 1947 in violation of a standstill agreement that the governments of India and Pakistan had with its ruler, India referred the issue to the Security Council on December 31, 1947, asking for Pakistan to stop. Instead of taking note of the aggression, the council declared Kashmir a disputed territory, thereby supporting the Pakistani position.

An August 1948 council resolution called for a plebiscite to determine the future of Kashmir. At that time, India was not opposed to such a move. At the time of Kashmir's accession to India, prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru had said that this was conditional on a plebiscite. *That position changed with the Security Council's handling of the issue. "Pakistan's only locus standi in Kashmir was that of an aggressor," an official in India's Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) said. "The UNSC made it an equal party to a dispute that in fact did not exist as India's rights over J&K were clearly established by the treaty of accession."*

*With Pakistan becoming a part of two US-led Cold War military alliances, the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization and the Central Treaty Organization, by the early 1950s and Western powers taking a pro-Pakistan line in the UN, India's distrust of the UN and the West deepened. The promise of a plebiscite was put on the backburner, as was any role for the UN on Kashmir-related matters. From 1954 onwards, the Soviet Union used its veto in favor of India against UN resolutions on Kashmir and with that the impact of the UN's "meddling" on India was effectively blunted.*

Unlike India, Pakistan favors a solution according to UN resolutions. This isn't surprising as the UN plebiscite envisages giving Kashmiris a choice between accession to India or Pakistan. It is silent on independence or freedom from Indian and Pakistani control, which is the option most popular among Kashmiris.

Pakistan has repeatedly sought to raise the Kashmir issue at international forums, although under the 1972 Simla Agreement with India it pledged to use bilateral dialogue to resolve it. In fact, diplomats who participated in talks that culminated in that agreement have written that the two countries had reached a tacit understanding on converting the Line of Control (LoC) (the ceasefire line of 1948, which with some small changes was made the LoC under the Simla Agreement) into an international border. That is, the two countries had agreed to give de jure status to the de facto situation. Domestic changes in the two countries in the 1970s prevented this from being implemented.

*The policies of the major powers towards the Kashmir dispute were driven by their global interests or the agendas of their regional partners. Thus, right through the Cold War, Western powers backed Pakistan's claims over Kashmir, just as the Soviets recognized J&K as an "inalienable part of India".*

During the Cold War, Western powers favored a plebiscite and a third party role to resolve the conflict, but this began to change in the 1990s. The end of the Cold War, India's growing economic clout, the lure of its giant market, the reality of Pakistan-sponsored terrorism in the region and the realization that the dispute would be best resolved by the two countries themselves have contributed to this shift in position.

Since the 1990s, the major powers have endorsed the Indian position, that is, conversion of the LoC into an international border. In 1999, for instance, when Pakistan violated the LoC at Kargil in J&K, it was sharply criticized. The joint statement issued by US president Bill Clinton and Pakistan prime minister Nawaz Sharif on July 4, 1999, in Washington expressed respect for the LoC in accordance with the Simla Agreement. That idea was echoed by a Group of Eight communique as well.

*During the Cold War, Western powers were not averse to an independent Kashmir, where they would wield influence. This was an attractive option, given Kashmir's proximity to the former Soviet Union and China. In the post-9/11 scenario, an independent Kashmir is not that attractive any longer. "The international community has little appetite for redrawing maps, especially in this part of the world," the MEA official said. "It has realized that J&K is in safer hands under India than it would be either independent or in Pakistan's hands."*

If in the past Western powers never hesitated to proffer advice to Delhi on the Kashmir issue, they have become more circumspect in recent years. Warm relations with India have always hinged on the support a country gave India on the Kashmir issue, a fact that the US has learnt and Britain is learning more slowly. At stake are ties with India, an emerging economic powerhouse. None of these countries would like to jeopardize their relations with India.

While the US is nudging India quietly to engage in talks with Pakistan, it has avoided advising it publicly. It prefers to manage a crisis as and when it erupts rather than engage itself fully in the Kashmir quagmire.

With the major powers shifting their line to match that of India's, Delhi has been more willing to allow US facilitation. Policymakers recognize that the US is India's best bet to get Pakistan to stop sponsoring anti-India terrorist groups.

However, this does not mean that India will take "gratuitous advice" quietly, as evident from the public ticking-off that visiting British dignitaries offering to mediate have repeatedly received from India or the recent response to the UN "guidance".

Some years ago, the UN, in the words of then-secretary general Kofi Annan, said that in the changed international context, UN resolutions on Kashmir were "obsolete". But Delhi is not taking any chances. Decades of distrust don't go away that easily.

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## GreenStar

> I didnt question you at all...And Indian members are also not answerable to you.



Then if you don't want to answer..then why are you responding to me...makes no sense..and I know that Indian member's are not answerable to me.....thats why it is an open forum.



> And frankly my dear star, you dissapointment doesnt mean jack because Indians and Pakistanis continuously dissappoint each others



Thankyou for that information....it was certainly educational..keep up the good work.



> ts you who is laying down an accusation about someone shooting someone just because he wanted to. So you should go ahead and provide the backup to that. Not upto Indian Govt or Indians to defend that.



Like I said to seiko I will wait..for the report...then I will discuss this issue.


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## Peshwa

Asim Aquil said:


> Ejaz didn't point that out, CRPF chief said that.
> 
> He is the accused, will you seriously take the word of the accused as the truth?



LOL.....This is unique....

So the accused is always guilty in your books I see...

So assuming the Shpeel about "non-state" actors should also be disregarded since it comes from the accused?

and for that matter, in the case of mob-violence....can anyone be sure how anyone died? Just because the incident took place during a protest does not mean that the onus of the death is placed on the security establishment....

You have neither proof to accuse our security forces of this crime....nor can you refute through evidence that the child died due to actions of the security force and not the stampede....
Only a post mortem can reveal that and only the police/coroner can run such a test.....and hence the CRPF chiefs word overides your blind emotional outburst....

Please refrain from making sweeping accusations....especially since we are preached the same....

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## Peshwa

GreenStar said:


> And If you are a soilder....you should think before you shoot. Maybe he was blind....*if so why was he accepted in your Army. *Any decent human.......would think twice, before killing or hurting a child.....But looks like your soilders......don't fit in that catergory......what is it now 55 people dead..



One of the most noted Terrorists, probably responsible for the deaths of hundreds if not Thousands of Indians as well as Pakistanis now....a very "upright human being" named Illyas Kashmiri was part of Pakistan's most elite unit of soldiers, The SSG....

So by that standard, are we to assume that the entire Pakistani army is full of blood thirsty terrorists....judging by the standards of their SSG personell?....Please gimme a break....

A soldiers duty is to follow orders.....In this case...the Police and CRPF whose orders were to maintain law and order....

No evidence can be provided to say that the child with ruptured lungs was a victim of our security forces through targetting.....
Until you find proof....stay clear of accusations....

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## indian_for_peace

Asim Aquil said:


> There is no justification to kill a nine year old, the Kashmiris want the Indian rule from Kashmir to end. Sooner or later, every household in Kashmir will start fighting the Indian security forces.



Mr. Asim, Indian army is in kashmir for preservation of peace and values that Indian constitution promote. Army has not specifically killed a nine year old and will never do it. They have shot at a rioting , violent crowd for restoration law and order. And yes, Kashmir is integral part of India and it will be forever. Sooner or later Kashmiri people will realize that they are being used for selfish and vested interest of some leaders on name of specific religion. Hatred can not last forever nor will these seperatist leaders.

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## foxbat

GreenStar said:


> Then if you don't want to answer..then why are you responding to me...makes no sense..and I know that Indian member's are not answerable to me.....thats why it is an open forum.



A bit of difference between answering and being answerable. Rest of your post


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## Peshwa

Jana said:


> Yeh and the terrorist Indian army @$$ holes think that a 9 year old kid is frustrated due unemployment and not due to Indian terrorism in Kashmir



Jana....you never fail us...

Now lets see.....A 9 year old kid can hardly count, read or grasp simple arithmetic to an advanced level....

Yet this "special" boy was able to grasp the complexities of a political scenario between India and Pakistan.....understand the limbo that Kashmir is in and make an "informed decision" (according to you)....of coming to the street to protest what he felt was his right to "self determination....


I wish there was an icon for a laughing facepalm....

Sometime I feel you're more of a fiction writer than a journalist....but then again.....as is the case in India and Pakistan.....Scribes do write fiction!!...LOL!!

Sell your junk elsewhere....

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## matti

*Sit-in in Hyderabad (India) against Kashmir protest killings*

Hyderabad: The city-based Civil Liberties Monitoring Committee of India yesterday organized a sit-in in the Andhra Pradesh capital *to protest against the killing of children in ongoing protests in Kashmir and demanded an end to all violent actions immediately. *
The Hyderabad protesters also demanded withdrawal of the Armed forces from civilian areas immediately, handover of law and order to the state government and release of all the people arrested during demonstration and agitations.

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## mohan goyal

bottomline is if u want kashmir, attack us, beat us and take it.


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## matti

mohan goyal said:


> bottomline is if u want kashmir, attack us, beat us and take it.



Kashmiris are more than enough to beat you and get their freedom. keep watching.


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## mohan goyal

matti said:


> Kashmiris are more than enough to beat you and get their freedom. keep watching.


how long we need to watch bro?? it is already more than 60 yrs. by the way keep dreaming

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## Dash

mohan goyal said:


> how long we need to watch bro?? it is already more than 60 yrs. by the way keep dreaming


haha...LOL.....


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## wap7

Muslims can exist peacefully only if they are in the minority. 
Take India for instance, if you see regions where they are a lot, you start to see problems - internal strife, poverty etc., Examples, regions of northern Kerala, old Hyderabad ... and of course Kashmir. There are a lot of others. 

A Muslim talks, behaves well and is very civilized when he/she is part of a larger non-Muslim group. However, their behaviour changes when there are a lot of Muslims in the group. I guess they just don't like it. 

No hate. Just very relevant to the issue discussed here.


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## PakSher

wap7 said:


> Muslims can exist peacefully only if they are in the minority.
> Take India for instance, if you see regions where they are a lot, you start to see problems - internal strife, poverty etc., Examples, regions of northern Kerala, old Hyderabad ... and of course Kashmir. There are a lot of others.
> 
> A Muslim talks, behaves well and is very civilized when he/she is part of a larger non-Muslim group. However, their behaviour changes when there are a lot of Muslims in the group. I guess they just don't like it.
> 
> No hate. Just very relevant to the issue discussed here.



Actually it is the opposite: When hindus live in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Malaysia, Singapore, US etc.. as a minority they live very peacefully, except in the case of Sri Lanka where they had the Tamil Hindu Suicide Bombers. But when they are in majority and especially tribes they fought a lot. There were maharajs fighting in India all the time. Plus when hindus are in majority they massacred sikhs, muslim in Gujrat, Muslims in Kashmir, Christians in India and claim to be peaceful. They always claim muslims are violent.


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## ejaz007

you are fired said:


> Freedom fight in Baluchistan
> 
> pray for them also
> 
> Ya Allah, Baluchistan ko aik bewakoof mulk say nijat day!
> AMEN!



One should also pray for freedom fighters in Punjab, Assam, Chatisgarh, Nagaland and Manipur.

Ya Allah in loggon ko be aik bewakoof mulk say nijat dey. Ameen.


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## ejaz007

mohan goyal said:


> how long we need to watch bro?? it is already more than 60 yrs. by the way keep dreaming



It took Indians 90 years to gain independence from British. Freedom movements are not measured in years but in spirit. As long as Kashmiris have the spirit the movement shall continue. Lets wait and see who blinks first.

Kashmiri's don't have much to loose other than their lives while India has a lot more to loose. What if other doormant freedom movements gain inspiration from Kashmiri's then what?


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## ejaz007

mohan goyal said:


> bottomline is if u want kashmir, attack us, beat us and take it.



We will keep on injuring you with small cuts till you bleed to death. Understand.

---------- Post added at 09:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 AM ----------

*Curfew re-imposed in Held Kashmir to prevent protests *

** Protester injured during last weeks clashes dies in hospital *

SRINAGAR: The police and the paramilitary forces on Monday re-imposed a curfew in Srinagar, the main town in the disputed region of Indian-held Kashmir, after the overnight death of a protester.

Shops and businesses had opened on Sunday for the first time in two weeks after the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley was brought to a standstill by violent protests and the deaths of scores of civilians.

The territory has been rocked by unrest since a teenage student was killed by a police tear-gas shell on June 11.

About 50 people have been killed as the security forces regularly opened fire to control the angry demonstrations triggered by each fatality.

Some 33 people  many of them young men or teenagers  have died in the last ten days, the deadliest phase of violence for two years. We had to re-impose the curfew to prevent protests after the death of a protester, said a police officer.

He said the victim, a Srinagar resident, was injured last week during clashes and died in a hospital late on Sunday. afp

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## ejaz007

*Pakistan rejects Indias allegations on IHK unrest*

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan on Monday rejected a statement made by Indian Home Minister P Chidambaram in which he had accused Pakistan of stoking violence in Indian-held Kashmir, saying Indias contention is too simplistic and indeed delusive. Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit said that by accusing Pakistan, India was not only insulting the indigenous and legitimate struggle of the people of IHK, but also depicted its lack of seriousness towards resolving the Kashmir dispute. The spokesman said, Unless India musters the courage and acknowledges that the soul of self-determination can never be killed, its Kashmir policy will remain rudderless. The spokesman added that Pakistan would continue extending diplomatic and moral support to the people of Kashmir until their legitimate aspirations are realised. app

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## ejaz007

you are fired said:


> can you tell me how will you justify killing in Baluchistan
> 
> they want freedom from Pakistan
> 
> what is your view on that freedom fight there from last 40 years



It people like you who bring in irrelevant topic to derail the actual subject under discussion.

Balochistan is not a disputed territory. stop ranting about it. Do we raise questions when your police or army kills people in Jharkand, Manipur, Assam, Punjab or Chatisgarh. We do not have an issue with what you do to your people and neither should you.

Since Kashmir is disputed and claimed by us and same recognized internationally we report and comment on it.


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## foxbat

ejaz007 said:


> We will keep on injuring you with small cuts till you bleed to death. Understand.




Oh Yeah.. The famous 1000 cuts.. But do you really believe that its India that is bleeding today? I mean economically, politically, image wise or even stability wise...

I was watching a rerun of disclosure yesterday and in the end, Michael Douglas tells Demi Moore, "Have you ever thought that may be I set you up". Made me think of India - Pakistan. Pakistan keeps of making such big bold statements of war of 1000 years.. Death by 1000 cuts.. Bleeding India to death and so on. But looks like the actual cuts are being made on Pakistan's body instead.

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## EjazR

*Rising Kashmir, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir - Govt to provide cash, drugs for injured*

Abid Bashir
Srinagar, August 9: Ruling out the creation of a corpus fund for aiding the costly treatment of around 500 injured persons, the state governments health ministry Monday revealed it has released Rs 45 lakh to ensure speedy recovery those recuperating in different state hospitals.
The government has sought help from volunteer citizens and asked people to form local bodies to reach out to the needy. We dont need to have separate corpus fund. We have adequate funds to meet the eventualities. But the citizens should come forward. Let there be committees who would apprise the government of what needs be done and where, Health Minister Rajinder Singh Chib told Rising Kashmir.

All hospitals have been directed to ensure best possible treatment to injured, the minister said adding that the government had already sanctioned Rs 45 lakh for various hospitals to provide free medicine, food and other stuff to the patients as well as the attendants.

He, however, said there may be laxity in treating some patients because of the circumstances. But majority of the patients dont have any complaint as far as treatment and medicine is concerned, he said.

Chib advocated formation of committees in each locality to be headed by senior citizens. Let those committees visit hospitals and prepare a list of patients, who are not happy with the treatment. The committees should also apprise the government about the patients facing shortage, he said.

The minister also urged the attendants and the general public to send their complaints on his e-mail  rschib1@yahoo.co.in.This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it People should also suggest ways and means of how to make health care system people friendly, he said.

Law and Parliamentary Affairs Minister Ali Muhammad Sagar said the government was very serious as far the treatment of injured are concerned. We have directed all medical superintendents to ensure best treatment to injured, he said. In case people face problems as far the treatment and medicine is concerned, they should apprise the government about the same.

He hailed the NGOs that have started selling the medicines, which are out of stock in market, outside various hospitals.

As per the rough estimates, at least 500 injured are being treated in various hospitals of Srinagar with many of them still having the bullets in their bodies.


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## ejaz007

foxbat said:


> Oh Yeah.. The famous 1000 cuts.. But do you really believe that its India that is bleeding today? I mean economically, politically, image wise or even stability wise...
> 
> I was watching a rerun of disclosure yesterday and in the end, Michael Douglas tells Demi Moore, "Have you ever thought that may be I set you up". Made me think of India - Pakistan. Pakistan keeps of making such big bold statements of war of 1000 years.. Death by 1000 cuts.. Bleeding India to death and so on. But looks like the actual cuts are being made on Pakistan's body instead.



India is bleeding no doubt about that. Look at your problem of insurgency such as maoist rebels and kashmir. ethinic tensions between different religions. rise in hindu radicalism.

It is just that you have not yet seen the blood coming from these wounds or perhaps do not wish to see it.

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## ejaz007

*Held Kashmir witnesses demos despite curfew* 
Updated at: 1410 PST, Tuesday, August 10, 2010

SRINAGAR: In occupied Kashmir, people staged forceful anti-India demonstrations and offered prayers on roads in different cities and towns of the territory.

People staged pro-freedom demonstrations and held congregational Zuhar, Asar and Magrib prayers on roads in Safapora, Naid Khai, Islamabad, Pulwama, Kakpora, Pampore, Tral, Shopian, Baramulla and Bandipora areas. 

In Shopian, after every prayer people marched through the streets of the town amid pro-freedom and anti-India slogans. Indian troops and police personnel subjected the demonstrators to baton charge and teargas shelling at several places.

Protests were also staged in Nowpora, Khanyar, Rainawari and Shalteng areas of Srinagar against the killing of a youth, Fida Nabi, who was injured in the firing of troops on protesters on August 03 and succumbed to his injuries on Sunday evening.

On the other hand, massive protests rocked Alachizab area of Kupwara after the body of a youth, Muhammad Ashraf Lone, who had gone missing on Sunday evening, was recovered from Sogam area of Lolab.

Residents of the area told mediamen that Ashraf, a fruit seller by profession, had gone missing after he went to Kupwara town to sell the fruit. 

Held Kashmir witnesses demos despite curfew


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## mohan goyal

ejaz007 said:


> India is bleeding no doubt about that. Look at your problem of insurgency such as maoist rebels and kashmir. ethinic tensions between different religions. rise in hindu radicalism.
> 
> It is just that you have not yet seen the blood coming from these wounds or perhaps do not wish to see it.


v are not bleeding, we are rising. we donot have regular mumbai like attacks that sadly u face on routine basis. no energy crisis like u have. as far as kashmir is concerned nobody has raised that issue so far. why the world is silent??? no ethnic tension between religion apart from minor issues. north indians working peacefully in soth india. hindu radicalism...never heard of that. i think RAW is giving u a tough time.


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## fawwaxs

Pakistani Kashmiris protest against 'Indian violence' 

MUZAFFARABAD: Several hundred Pakistanis demonstrated on Tuesday to denounce violence in Indian-administered Kashmir, where unrest has surged since a student was killed by police tear-gas in June.

Since then about 50 people have been killed in the Indian-administered zone of the Muslim-majority region where security forces have regularly opened fire in recent weeks to control angry separatist demonstrations.

&#8220;If atrocities continue in Indian occupied Kashmir, we will cross the Line of Control to help our brethren,&#8221; Aziz Ahmed Ghazali, a refugee leader told the rally attended by more than 300 people.

The protesters marched to the UN military observers office in Muzaffarabad, the capital of Pakistan-administered Kashmir, and sat on the road, shouting &#8220;Indian go back,&#8221; &#8220;UN oh UN play your role&#8221; and &#8220;We want freedom.&#8221;

Ghazali accused the United Nations of taking no action on past resolutions protesting against Indian &#8220;atrocities&#8221; in Kashmir.

&#8220;The UN has become a dead horse and a maid of the United States,&#8221; he said.

Abu Ali, a leader in Pakistan's banned charity Jamaat-ud-Dawa, said they would stand by Kashmiri people in their struggle for independence.

Jamaat-ud-Dawa is linked to the 2008 Mumbai attacks, which left 166 people dead and was blamed by New Delhi on Pakistani militants. The carnage derailed a slow-moving peace process between India and Pakistan.

&#8220;Unarmed Kashmiris are being killed in Kashmir, while our rulers are on foreign visits,&#8221; Ali said, referring to the controversial visit of President Asif Ali Zardari to Britain and France despite massive floods in Pakistan. &#8211; AFP


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## ejaz007

mohan goyal said:


> v are not bleeding, we are rising. we donot have regular mumbai like attacks that sadly u face on routine basis. no energy crisis like u have. as far as kashmir is concerned nobody has raised that issue so far. why the world is silent??? no ethnic tension between religion apart from minor issues. north indians working peacefully in soth india. hindu radicalism...never heard of that. i think RAW is giving u a tough time.



Perhaps you do not know what happened in gujrat, who burned alive christian priest, who burned nuns, who raped foreign tourists, who demolished babri mosque, what maoist are doing in 25% of India, every one in India has electricity, you are not short of gas, your shiv sena is an NGO.

Seriously do you live in India?


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## amit30

ejaz007 said:


> Perhaps you do not know what happened in gujrat, who burned alive christian priest, who burned nuns, who raped foreign tourists, who demolished babri mosque, what maoist are doing in 25% of India, every one in India has electricity, you are not short of gas, your shiv sena is an NGO.
> 
> Seriously do you live in India?



moist on 25% India batter than taliban on 100% Pakistan 
who many tourist come to your country ????? every buddy know why they dnt come .. 
i think you are sleeping now whats going on in Karachi is joke . right ??


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## indianpatriot

next is this...





and HUMANITY will fall in Kashmir!!!kuddos to Pakistan and India....this is how you destroy humanity!!


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## mohan goyal

ejaz007 said:


> Perhaps you do not know what happened in gujrat, who burned alive christian priest, who burned nuns, who raped foreign tourists, who demolished babri mosque, what maoist are doing in 25% of India, every one in India has electricity, you are not short of gas, your shiv sena is an NGO.
> 
> Seriously do you live in India?


the things ur talking about happened a decade ago... well i am not denying it. now tell me anything major happened after 2001?? everybody has enough supply of electricity in ur country. see we have recently signed 12 nuclear deals all around the world. hopefully all the energy issues will be solved in next decade. maoist is the problem which will be solved surely. we successfully solved that in Andhra pradesh. shiv sena is limited only to mumbai. and in mumbai nobody has the time to do all this. they are not in power for last 15 years. so dont need to worry. well dont start blame game all know that more than 80 people killed in karachi in 2 days while in kashmir only 50 over a month long violence. by the way i live in india


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## indianpatriot

I am launching my separatist movement because a police officer raped a teenager last night in Lucknow...i want to create Awadh Union...any supporters...and yes they should create a separate Delhi because it has lots of crime...and a separate Nevada because it has highest murder rate in America and i believe that American Govt sponsors these murders!!!

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## foxbat

So folks.. Any update on the implementation of the calander? Havent heard much noise from Kashmir since Sunday. Being in Delhi, its a little far off. Are any Pakistani friends located geographically closer to the area able to provide some information??


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## GUNNER

NEW DELHI, Aug 10, 2010 (AFP) - Prime Minister Manmohan Singh appealed Tuesday to Kashmiris "to give peace a chance" after almost daily anti-India street protests that have claimed at least 50 lives since June.

"I am convinced the only way forward in Jammu and Kashmir is along the path of dialogue and reconciliation," Singh said in a televised address to an all-party meeting called in New Delhi to discuss the restive region.

"I appeal to the people of Jammu and Kashmir to give peace a chance."

The appeal was the first from the Indian premier since violence brought life to a standstill in Kashmir's towns and cities after a teenage student was killed by a police teargas shell on June 11. 

At least 50 people -- mostly young men or teenagers -- have died in the violence, most of them as a result of police firing, in the deadliest spate of protests to shake the Muslim-majority region for two years.

The prime minister's call came as Indian security forces continued to enforce a strict curfew in most parts of Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian Kashmir, to prevent protests against New Delhi's rule.


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## EjazR

*Prime Minister reaches out to Kashmiri youth, appeals for peace*

*Watch the PM speaking in Urdu at the video link above^^^*

New Delhi: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has appealed to all groups to join the process of dialogue to find a peaceful resolution to the situation in Kashmir. He appealed to people in the state to give peace a chance, promising infrastructure and development in the state.

"I believe we need a political solution that can address the feeling of alienation in the people, and we are ready for dialogue," said the Prime Minister addressing an all party meet in New Delhi

The Prime Minister broke his silence after two months of protests and over 50 people killed in the valley, most of them youngsters, including a 9-year-old. Admitting that the government's Kashmir policy needs to do more, the Prime Minister hinted at reviewing and amending the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA).

Dr Singh added that he empathised with the youth of the state and that every effort will be made to meet their hopes and aspirations. "I feel the pain and alienation of youngsters protesting on the streets. I appeal to the youth in Jammu and Kashmir to go back to their schools and colleges. We must ask ourselves if our children do not study, what future they'll have," said the Prime Minister, stressing that all political parties must look for a peaceful resolution to the problem, by galvanising the youth.

The Prime Minister said that the central government would extend all possible help to the state government in resolving the situation on the ground and mitigating tensions. Dr Singh promised early local body elections in the state, to ensure greater public participation in the administration.

The government has formed an expert committee headed by former RBI governor Dr C Rangarajan to explore ways to enhance employment opportunities in the state. The committee will also have Infosys mentor NR Narayanmurthy.

The BJP stayed away from the all party meet, and Jammu and Kashmir's main opposition party - the PDP - will reportedly meet the Prime Minister separately.

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## indian_for_peace

Give peace a chance, Prime Minister appeals to Kashmiri youth


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## graphican

Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has called for "the cycle of violence" to end in Indian-administered Kashmir.

In a TV address aimed at Kashmiris, his first since recent public protests began, he said the bloodshed had caused him "great pain".

He appealed to young people to go back to schools and colleges to study.

The problems in the region had to be resolved through political dialogue, he said, while promising relief for flood victims in Ladakh.
'Complex problem'

"The cycle of violence must now come to an end. We must collectively ensure that no innocent life is lost again," Mr Singh said.

Correspondents say the prime minister did not give details as to how Kashmir's problems could be resolved.

"Even with the best of these intentions, I cannot say that a complex problem that has defied resolution for 63 years can be solved easily or quickly," he said.

Hundreds of thousands of troops are based in Kashmir to fight a two-decade insurgency against Indian rule.

The territory - a third of which is in Pakistan - has been the centre point of two of India's three wars against Pakistan since both countries won independence in 1947.

Mr Singh also pledged to do all he could to help flash flood victims in the predominantly Buddhist Ladakh region of Indian-administered Kashmir, where five European tourists were among at least 160 people killed since Friday.

Hundreds of people are also missing after sudden rainfall swept away roads, houses, bridges and power cables.

*Source:* BBC News - Indian prime minister calls for end to Kashmir violence
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Without talking even 1&#37; about problems of Kashmiris and addressing the grounds of their protest, Manmohan Singh believes his name "Man-Mohan" would do the magic. *


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## graphican

indian_for_peace said:


> Give peace a chance, Prime Minister appeals to Kashmiri youth



Were you guys so lazy that in 62 years when you had time, you couldn't address their issues? Pretty .

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## graphican

EjazR said:


> Watch the PM speaking in Urdu at the video link above^^^[/B]



Thank you Manmohan Singh, you spoke the language which Kashmiris speak, the *National Language of Pakistan*. You showed who Kashmir is part of.

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## owcc

graphican said:


> Were you guys so lazy that in 62 years when you had time, you couldn't address their issues? Pretty .



We dont take it as their issues.If they had an issues its ours as well and vice versa.It will be settled like any other state to state problems in the Indian Union

Although iagree to the laziness part.We Indians often wait to get hit by a truck before taking any major decisions

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## afriend

unless army goes from the daily life of kashmiris nothing can happen. we should not be in their lives. may be they can gaurd the borders of the valley, never should they go inside. This is only the one acceptable step india can take towards a peaceful situation.


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## Gentle Typhoon

His urdu is flawless, A man with vision, I respect him due to his honesty in context of money since rest of all politician ripped India as much as they could, he is very straight forward PM.


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## riju78

graphican said:


> Thank you Manmohan Singh, you spoke the language which Kashmiris speak, the *National Language of Pakistan*. You showed who Kashmir is part of.




very intelligent find...thanks for ur post


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## linkinpark

afriend said:


> unless army goes from the daily life of kashmiris nothing can happen. we should not be in their lives. may be they can gaurd the borders of the valley, never should they go inside. This is only the one acceptable step india can take towards a peaceful situation.



As of now Army is not involved in maintaining law and order situation in J&K. It is done by J&K police and CRPF. Army is only involved in guarding the borders to avoid cross-border infiltration and for specific operations against militants.


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## linkinpark

graphican said:


> Thank you Manmohan Singh, you spoke the language which Kashmiris speak, the *National Language of Pakistan*. You showed who Kashmir is part of.



Urdu may be National language of Pakistan but it is also one of the official languages in India. Moreover, Urdu originated and practiced in India in the present day UP& Bihar much before Pakistan formed. In a way, it is Indian language first and then used by Paksitan (Urdu is a language of mohajirs). There you go I quashed your bombastic claims. 

PS: There are more Urdu speakers in India than Pakistan as their mother tongue.

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## M82

graphican said:


> Thank you Manmohan Singh, you spoke the language which Kashmiris speak, the *National Language of Pakistan*. You showed who Kashmir is part of.



Our Prime Minister spoke in your national language so your country belong to us. When are you leaving our land?????

advance

@topic
PM should have talked earlier. if done it would have eased the situation.. bit late but not too late...

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## Rajput Warrior

M82 said:


> Our Prime Minister spoke in your national language so your country belong to us. When are you leaving our land?????
> 
> advance



Dumbest post ever.

award goes to u.


----------



## ARCHON

graphican said:


> Thank you Manmohan Singh, you spoke the language which Kashmiris speak, the *National Language of Pakistan*. You showed who Kashmir is part of.



He was born In Pakistan.

Btwn he speaks in English when he is in England.


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## M82

Rajput Warrior said:


> Dumbest post ever.
> 
> award goes to u.



and the dumbest person giving the award???


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## DGMO

Interesting that MMS brought up autonomy today. That's been a word not used of late, but mentioning it as an option was a positive sign, and a step in the right direction.

Seems like concessionary tones are being made at last. In all honesty, it's the practical thing to do.


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## Rajput Warrior

M82 said:


> and the dumbest person giving the award???



So ur giving urself an award?


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## M82

Rajput Warrior said:


> So ur giving urself an award?



look at your previous post and find who is giving the award...

you just made me to troll... am not responding to u anymore...


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## desiman

graphican said:


> Thank you Manmohan Singh, you spoke the language which Kashmiris speak, the *National Language of Pakistan*. You showed who Kashmir is part of.



lol Present day Urdu has its roots in Indian Punjab and UP Sir, so in a way you are all speaking Indian languages lol Insert Faceplam


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## storm seeker

M82 said:


> Our Prime Minister spoke in your national language so your country belong to us. When are you leaving our land?????
> 
> advance
> 
> @topic
> PM should have talked earlier. if done it would have eased the situation.. bit late but not too late...



hmmmmm .... witty


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## storm seeker

birdofprey said:


> He was born In Pakistan.
> 
> Btwn he speaks in English when he is in England.



so he is a pakistani


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## MZUBAIR

Any ways Kashmir cant become the part of Inida. 

Kashmires are burning 3 colour flags and taking up green flag


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## storm seeker

MZUBAIR said:


> Any ways Kashmir cant become the part of Inida.
> 
> Kashmires are burning 3 colour flags and taking up green flag



coooooooooool post ......

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## MZUBAIR

Kashmiries cant forget this blood







Revenage is near .....and sooner they are going to hault Indian terrorist troops


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## MZUBAIR

Kashmiries hosting Pakistan Flag


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## MZUBAIR

Pakistan flag all over in Srinagar.


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## MZUBAIR

Pakistan flag is on the roads of Jammu & Kashmir.







*Brave Kashmiri hosting Pakistan flag infront of Indian terrorist troops*


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## MZUBAIR

Kasmiri Mother fighting for freedom


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## ejaz007

mohan goyal said:


> the things ur talking about happened a decade ago... well i am not denying it. now tell me anything major happened after 2001?? everybody has enough supply of electricity in ur country. see we have recently signed 12 nuclear deals all around the world. hopefully all the energy issues will be solved in next decade. maoist is the problem which will be solved surely. we successfully solved that in Andhra pradesh. shiv sena is limited only to mumbai. and in mumbai nobody has the time to do all this. they are not in power for last 15 years. so dont need to worry. well dont start blame game all know that more than 80 people killed in karachi in 2 days while in kashmir only 50 over a month long violence. by the way i live in india



Let see:

SC rejects British rape victim's plea for transfer of trial - India - The Times of India






Rape of foreign tourists shames the nation!

Another Tourist raped in India!!!! India is the Rape central of the world

Indian reporter fears for life after Muslim massacre expose - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)






More Christians killed in India violence | Christian News on Christian Today

Priest Brutally Killed in India; Bishops Call for Protection | Christianpost.com

Holy war strikes in India: 35 Christians killed and 50,000 forced from their homes - World news, News - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk

I can continue but don't have time. It seems your decade ends in a couple of years.


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## ejaz007

*Kashmiris protest against violence in IHK*

MUZAFFARABAD: Several hundred Pakistani Kashmiris denounced violence in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) in a demonstration on Tuesday.

Unrest in IHK has surged since a student was killed by a police tear-gas in June. Since then, about 50 people have been killed in the region where security forces have regularly opened fire in recent weeks to control angry separatist demonstrations. If atrocities continue in Indian-occupied Kashmir, we will cross the Line of Control to help our brethren, Aziz Ahmed Ghazali, a refugee leader told the rally attended by more than 300 people.

The protesters marched to the UN military observers office in Muzaffarabad and sat on the road, shouting, Indian dog go back, UN oh UN, play your role and We want freedom. Ghazali accused the United Nations of taking no action on past resolutions protesting against Indian atrocities in Kashmir. The UN has become a dead horse and a maid of the United States, he said.

Abu Ali, a leader of banned charity Jamaatud Dawa, said they would stand by Kashmiri people in their struggle for independence. Muslim separatists have fought a 20-year insurgency against New Delhis rule in Indian Kashmir. Indias Home Minister Pallaniapan Chidambaram suggested on Friday that Pakistan was behind the wave of unrest in IHK. afp

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


----------



## MZUBAIR

Thats for u Manmohan Singh


----------



## foxbat

ejaz007 said:


> Let see:
> 
> SC rejects British rape victim's plea for transfer of trial - India - The Times of India
> 
> YouTube - &#x202a;British girl in India raped by two taxi drivers&#x202c;&lrm;
> 
> Rape of foreign tourists shames the nation!
> 
> Another Tourist raped in India!!!! India is the Rape central of the world
> 
> Indian reporter fears for life after Muslim massacre expose - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
> 
> YouTube - &#x202a;Genocide of Gujrat, India&#x202c;&lrm;
> 
> More Christians killed in India violence | Christian News on Christian Today
> 
> Priest Brutally Killed in India; Bishops Call for Protection | Christianpost.com
> 
> Holy war strikes in India: 35 Christians killed and 50,000 forced from their homes - World news, News - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk
> 
> I can continue but don't have time. It seems your decade ends in a couple of years.



Do you even want to go into What Central of the World Pakistan is called??

Its a little lame to bring up individual crime instances in this discussion. Put them all together for India and compare them to the terrorist incidents in Pakistan and you will still find Pakistan winning in terms of numbers. Congrats on that victory...


----------



## foxbat

graphican said:


> Thank you Manmohan Singh, you spoke the language which Kashmiris speak, the *National Language of Pakistan*. You showed who Kashmir is part of.



Didnt I recently read about a move in Pakistan to move away from Urdu towards Arabic??

anyway, do go and check about the originis of Urdu and its status in the constitution on India

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## foxbat

MZUBAIR said:


> Any ways Kashmir cant become the part of Inida.
> 
> Kashmires are burning 3 colour flags and taking up green flag



And you think this green flag is Pakistan's flag?? 

---------- Post added at 09:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 AM ----------




MZUBAIR said:


> Kashmiries hosting Pakistan Flag



Its sad that being a Pakistani, you dont even know your flag. Where is the white band in the flag in the photo?

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## MZUBAIR

Looks Manmohan is in pressure 
Water Problem...
Terrorist problem (Nexal etc)
Dont forget Kashmir....which is not part of Inida






Then he cries to have a dialogue with Pakistan & Kashmiries


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## MZUBAIR

foxbat said:


> And you think this green flag is Pakistan's flag??
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Its sad that being a Pakistani, you dont even know your flag. Where is the white band in the flag in the photo?








*U need to see it again using these glasses *


----------



## afriend

linkinpark said:


> As of now Army is not involved in maintaining law and order situation in J&K. It is done by J&K police and CRPF. Army is only involved in guarding the borders to avoid cross-border infiltration and for specific operations against militants.



CRPF is considered as an extension of indian army, we should not force india down upon their throat. India is a free country, however it is not true in case of kashmiris, they havent tasted freedom for a while. First step is to remove our symbols of oppression like CRPF from the streets of Kashmir. 

We will never let go of kashmir that is for a fact, but basking in the might of indian force and never addressing the problems of kashmiris is a crime against humanity. So withdrawel of CRPF from streets of kashmir is first step. So now without a symbol of oppression whom would you think their frustration will be directed at. However delhi should be closely monitoring the situation in kashmir, and should step in only when the people are terrorised by the terrorists. Let the people protest, chant anti india slogans or stage any kind of protests in a civil manner, true to their character they can never do it and ordinary kashmiris will realise who the real cancer is.


----------



## MZUBAIR

Manmohan je Kashmiries have descided to celbrate black day on *15th August.*


----------



## Awesome

I think a mother ought to catch the Indian PM by the collar as well and slap him around for offering a job in exchange for taking the lives of innocent Kashmiri children.

Give Azadi a chance!

*PM's initiative a "joke" with the people of Kashmir: PDP - Hindustan Times*

Jammu and Kashmir's main opposition PDP tonight dismissed as a "joke with the people of Kashmir" Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's fresh initiative to end the unrest in the Valley. "The Prime Minister's statement (at the meeting with an all-party delegation from the state) is a joke with the people of Kashmir", PDP patron and former chief minister Mufti Mohd Sayeed said.
Sayeed described as a "futile exercise" the meeting the PM had with the delegation alleging "nothing will come out of
it".

He said Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah had convened a meeting of all political parties a month ago
and decided to send a delegation to meet the Prime Minister.

However, all the parties had already met Singh separately before today's meeting, Sayeed added.

The Mufti said economic and employment package was not a solution to the Kashmir problem and suggested the separatists,
including hardline Hurryat Conference leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani, be invited to resolve the issue.

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## sha123

ejaz007 please right now Pakistani are not in condition for blem any other government (Country) reading any dam issue look at current condition in Pakistan, Worst flood in Pakistan&#8217;s history, 1.5 Crore people affected and thousand of dead till *your all political parties aren&#8217;t come together to make common statement which lead nation out of the crisis. * 160 million population of Pakistan looking for international aides.
I doesn&#8217;t deny IOK problem (innocent people lost their life) but look at Indian political party they have conducted all party meeting and PM of India address Kashmir issue. At least they have started the process. It will bring peace to IOK...


----------



## MZUBAIR

Still the ideology of two nations exist in India


----------



## EjazR

^^^GoP official policy is no independence for J&K, so until GoP comes forwards with that proposal, its not even on the table.

*PDP welcomes PM?s statement, demands accountability*

Srinagar: PDP, the main opposition party in J and K, today welcomed the fresh initiative unveiled by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to address the unrest in Kashmir hoping it will be a "critical step" forward to usher in lasting peace in the valley.

PDP president Mehbooba Mufti, whose party has stayed away from the all party delegation from Jammu and Kashmir that met the Prime Minister, said Singh has tried to reach out to the people though she appeared to suggest that his effort has come late.

Mehbooba said the PDP has always maintained that the Prime Minister has to intervene because he has the credibility in the state, noting he has invested a lot in the peace process.

As far as economic packages are concerned, Mehbooba said they can be only fruitful if you have a peaceful environment. She said any package should address the aspirations of the people of Kashmir.

Political package must be a priority, she said, adding that her party would be a part of any serious initiative.

She also said while reaching out was okay, somebody had to be held accountable for the death of 51 civilians in the Valley.

Her father, however, had different views. "The Prime Minister's statement (at the meeting with an all-party delegation from the state) is a joke with the people of Kashmir", PDP patron and former chief minister Mufti Mohd Sayeed said.

Sayeed described as a "futile exercise" the meeting the PM had with the delegation alleging "nothing will come out of it".

The BJP dimissed Singh's peace missive as having a "one day value" in terms of announcement while the main opposition party PDP hoped it is taken to a "logical conclusion" to usher in lasting peace in the valley.


----------



## trident2010

MZUBAIR said:


> Thats for u Manmohan Singh




Post reported !!

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## MZUBAIR




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## MZUBAIR

The three areas Kashmir, Jammu and Ladakh rising to get freedom


----------



## MZUBAIR




----------



## MZUBAIR

A Kashmiri boy to his younger brother, "Look these are the state terrorist of so called Worlds Deomcratic State, dont mess with them....they will kill u and decalre it there success that they have killed a freedom fighter ."

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## gurjot

MZUBAIR bhai,kamaal kar dia.nthing will change!!!!!!!!!!!!!!oopsssssssss


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## MZUBAIR

In todays News Paper (Nawai Waqt, Lahore)






This is the cruelty of India. 
How can his mother will forgive Indian troops?


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## KS

^^^^

The problem of the Kashmiris is that they dont have a long term plan as how to run their state or rather they dont know wat exactly benefits them,who are their real friends and are acting more on emotions and instigations rather than on logic - in the process getting entangled in a web of un-extricable violence that affects them mostly and not the rest of the Indian Union.

And I believe this is wat the PM had in mind wen he spoke abt ending the Kashmir violence.


----------



## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> New Protest Calendar launched for Kashmir



Maybe this calender would do them some good rather than the above one..

 Deepika launches kingfisher 2010 calender


----------



## KS

ejaz007 said:


> Let see:
> 
> SC rejects British rape victim's plea for transfer of trial - India - The Times of India
> 
> YouTube - &#x202a;British girl in India raped by two taxi drivers&#x202c;&lrm;
> 
> Rape of foreign tourists shames the nation!
> 
> Another Tourist raped in India!!!! India is the Rape central of the world



Tel me one country in the world where Rapes dont exist.



ejaz007 said:


> Indian reporter fears for life after Muslim massacre expose - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)



He is still fearing....?? He is not injured/killed....??looks like his fear is misplaced.




ejaz007 said:


> YouTube - &#x202a;Genocide of Gujrat, India&#x202c;&lrm;



Please post the Youtube video of the burning of the 60 Hindu pilgrims also that resulted in Godhra riots so that the discussion will be fair.




ejaz007 said:


> More Christians killed in India violence | Christian News on Christian Today
> 
> Priest Brutally Killed in India; Bishops Call for Protection | Christianpost.com
> 
> Holy war strikes in India: 35 Christians killed and 50,000 forced from their homes - World news, News - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk



Whatever is Happening in Orissa by Amarendra Kishore

Pope should apologise for Laxmanananda murder | Great Hindu


*U see every killing/riot that happens in India incidentially happens only wen the Hindus are provoked..not that they do as some past time.
*
Get that first.



ejaz007 said:


> I can continue but don't have time. It seems your decade ends in a couple of years.



Dont worry Im not in a mood to start with the Hindu/Sikh/Christian/Ahmadi/Shia persecution in Pakistan which by the way is *legalised* by Blasphemy laws...


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## KS

MZUBAIR said:


> A Kashmiri boy to his younger brother, "Look these are the state terrorist of so called Worlds Deomcratic State, dont mess with them....they will kill u and decalre it there success that they have killed a freedom fighter ."



But I hear that as - "look at that uncle..he is here to protect our generation and state from the instigated riots and the cross-border sponsored militants and so say a thank you to him.

Younger kid : thank you uncle.  "

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Asim Aquil said:


> Another youth dies, curfew in Srinagar - Hindustan Times
> 
> 
> 
> Indians are purposely targeting the very young in hopes that parents would back off.


 indeed a failed strategy from the get go. It's fanning more hatred. This is no new phenomenon it's been going on for decades now. Of course they'll blame us for their woes and for current ground realities which are not in their favour!


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## somebozo

Why kashmirs look soo much like pakistanis and not indian. Also there is a huge exploitation of kashmiri handcraft industry why oppurtunist indian business men. Superb kashmiri handicraft is imported for peanuts and sold for sevral hundrend bucked around UAE and Saudi Arabia. The prices for middle men to procure are so incredibly low that it feels shameful to buy this stuff at malls.


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## IndianRobo

Atlast Dr Manmohan Singh Spoke out... I now get a Feeling of The curfew being Relaxed Within a Period of Time.. Well Police has to be held responsible of Using Bullets for Stones, Not fair Indeed.... 

Fake Encounters have to Be Investigated and If Found Guilty Hang the Guilty to death.... Omar Abdullah Must resign and His Father Dr Farooq Abdullah should step in or Declare Presidents Rule


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## somebozo

Sooner or later kashmir will be invaded by Pak China alliance much like the indo-russian treaty of friendship and co-operation lead the way for east-Pakistan invasion on the grounds of refugee crisis. Stone pelting in Kashmir would be directly propotional to potential refugees being generated and when we get out fair share of 10 million or so, invading IOK would become justified.


----------



## GUNNER

*Kashmiri Leaders Reject Indian PM's Offer*

SRINAGAR, India, Aug 11, 2010 (AFP) - Leaders in Indian Kashmir dismissed Wednesday overtures from Prime Minister Manmohan Singh about political autonomy in the region following months of anti-India unrest.

Appealing to Kashmiri Muslims to "give peace a chance", Singh had said Tuesday that his government would consider any consensus proposal for autonomy as long as it remained "within the ambit" of the constitution.

He also announced the creation of a panel of experts that would draw up a "jobs plan" for Indian Kashmir where rampant unemployment -- especially among young people -- has fuelled resentment against Indian rule.

But senior Kashmiri leaders rejected Singh's initiative.

"Our fight is for independence, not autonomy," Javed Mir, a former militant commander turned separatist politician, told AFP.

"We will continue our fight for our goal through peaceful protests," said Mir, who had been among the first Kashmiris to take up arms in 1989 when frustration against Indian rule boiled over into a full-blown insurgency.

Under the terms of its accession to India in 1947 -- after independence from Britain and the sub-continent's division -- Kashmir was granted a relatively high degree of autonomy, excluding areas like defence and foreign affairs.

But those powers have been eroded over the years, and renewed promises of greater autonomy gain little traction in separatist circles.

"Our struggle is not for restoration of autonomy. It is to seek our right to self-determination," Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, an influential moderate separatist and Muslim cleric, told AFP.

"We should be allowed to decide whether we want to remain with India, accede to Pakistan or carve out an independent state," he said.

The Kashmir legislative assembly in 2000 passed a resolution favouring full restoration of the state's autonomy, but it was rejected by the then Hindu-nationalist government in New Delhi.

Autonomy is the main demand of the ruling National Conference, the state's biggest pro-India political party.

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## MZUBAIR

Karthic Sri said:


> But I hear that as - "look at that uncle..he is here to protect our generation and state from the instigated riots and the cross-border sponsored militants and so say a thank you to him.
> 
> Younger kid : thank you uncle.  "



*You r deaf....*

They dont protect...they do this 







and this






From where u say that these r protectors.....and protectors by whom....

*Indian troops are Indian State terrorists *


----------



## Marxist

somebozo said:


> Sooner or later kashmir will be invaded by Pak China alliance much like the indo-russian treaty of friendship and co-operation lead the way for east-Pakistan invasion on the grounds of refugee crisis. Stone pelting in Kashmir would be directly propotional to potential refugees being generated and when we get out fair share of 10 million or so, invading IOK would become justified.



W*t dream ,

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## Sanatan

somebozo said:


> Sooner or later kashmir will be invaded by Pak China alliance much like the indo-russian treaty of friendship and co-operation lead the way for east-Pakistan invasion on the grounds of refugee crisis. Stone pelting in Kashmir would be directly propotional to potential refugees being generated and when we get out fair share of 10 million or so, invading IOK would become justified.



This ridiculous arugument would have sounded fair had it been made by a newbie like me. But 650+ posts and you make such laughable remarks, is quite astonishing.

Your stupid theory sounds like ghazwa-e-(be)hind-walad-cheen


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## Bang Galore

MZUBAIR said:


> *U need to see it again using these glasses *



Y*up ! U still don't know your flag!*
_Pakistani flag:_




Notice the white strip & the position of the crescent moon.

_Flag shown in photo_(rotated 180 degrees)





See the direction of the moon w.r.t. the white strip.
*Maybe it's you who needs those glasses.*

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## mohan goyal

somebozo said:


> Sooner or later kashmir will be invaded by Pak China alliance much like the indo-russian treaty of friendship and co-operation lead the way for east-Pakistan invasion on the grounds of refugee crisis. Stone pelting in Kashmir would be directly propotional to potential refugees being generated and when we get out fair share of 10 million or so, invading IOK would become justified.


i thought people are infilatrating from P.O.K and now saying that ur expecting 10 mn refugees. im quite confused..lol

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## MZUBAIR

Bang Galore said:


> Y*up ! U still don't know your flag!*
> _Pakistani flag:_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice the white part & the position of the crescent moon.
> 
> _Flag shown in photo_(rotated 180 degrees)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See the direction of the moon w.r.t. the white flag.
> *Maybe it's you who needs those glasses.*



*U still need glasses , these boys were holding the flag from opposite side....*


----------



## Rajput Warrior

Bang Galore said:


> Y*up ! U still don't know your flag!*
> _Pakistani flag:_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice the white strip & the position of the crescent moon.
> 
> _Flag shown in photo_(rotated 180 degrees)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See the direction of the moon w.r.t. the white strip.
> *Maybe it's you who needs those glasses.*



They are only holding it wrong.... here is a video specially dedicated to u
LISTEN WAT THEY SAY!











U can also see pictures in other threads!

GOD BLESS KASHMIRIS


----------



## linkinpark

MZUBAIR said:


> Kasmiri Mother fighting for freedom



Are you a Pakistani??. Do you even know how Pakistani flag looks like??. In this picture, the flag has blue, white and green with star, so how come this is a pakistani flag??. It is a Islamic flag.


----------



## linkinpark

afriend said:


> CRPF is considered as an extension of indian army, we should not force india down upon their throat. India is a free country, however it is not true in case of kashmiris, they havent tasted freedom for a while. First step is to remove our symbols of oppression like CRPF from the streets of Kashmir.
> 
> We will never let go of kashmir that is for a fact, but basking in the might of indian force and never addressing the problems of kashmiris is a crime against humanity. So withdrawel of CRPF from streets of kashmir is first step. So now without a symbol of oppression whom would you think their frustration will be directed at. However delhi should be closely monitoring the situation in kashmir, and should step in only when the people are terrorised by the terrorists. Let the people protest, chant anti india slogans or stage any kind of protests in a civil manner, true to their character they can never do it and ordinary kashmiris will realise who the real cancer is.



CRPF is not an extension of Army. It is an paramilitary force of central government to support states when their police forces are not adequate to deal with the security situation. Of course security will withdraw if there is peace and if people stop going on burning public property, beat the security forces and doing riot and arson on the streets leading to this situation. Its a quid pro quo. If they stop violence, CRPF has no job in J&K. As simple as that.


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## linkinpark

Azaadi as portrayed by Pakistanis is a wet dream. It didn't happen in 63 years, it ain't gonna happen in the future. The maximum possibility is that of autonomy as described my MMS. Take it or leave it. Even whole world can cry hoarse but nothing is gonna change at the ground level. India has handled much more violence and militancy than it is now, so dealing with current situation is no big deal. Everyone will move on just like before.


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## wap7

They're dying for revenge. There was no way you could control a distant land with a huge country in between. And it's been almost 40 years ... get over it. If it makes you happy, it's all your brethren Muslims in BD anyway. Most idol worshipers have been driven out!

The fact that Baloch people want a separate nation is a proof that you can't build a country on pure religious grounds. 

If Pakistan keeps salivating for revenge instead of focusing on development, soon it will be split into 4 nations all fighting with each other. Will be a safe haven for terrorists.


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## xyz

MZUBAIR said:


>



does she even know wht shez holding??? I dont think so, militancy across the border has led to fall in literacy rates in JK.


----------



## KS

MZUBAIR said:


> *You r deaf....*
> 
> They dont protect...they do this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From where u say that these r protectors.....and protectors by whom....
> 
> *Indian troops are Indian State terrorists *




poor child....another victim (pawn) in the vicious land grab game being played by our neighbour by instigating some traitors.

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## Gentle Typhoon

New Delhi: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said on Tuesday that the government will consider the demand for autonomy for Jammu and Kashmir if there was autonomy among political parties on the issue.

The Prime Minister said this after meeting an all party delegation from Jammu and Kashmir led by Chief Minister Omar Abdullah. It lasted nearly four hours.

However, Singh added that the autonomy would be within the ambit of the Constitution. Prime Minister also said that the presence of senior ministers of at the meeting showed the seriousness of his government's commitment to address the Kashmir issue.

The meeting was held to appraise the Prime Minister with the volatile situation in the Kashmir Valley.

Leaders of the main opposition party in the state, the People's Democratic Party had boycotted the meeting. After the meeting, Union Home Minister P Chidambaram said the meeting was good and that the Prime Minister heard all the views of delegation members.

Sources say that at the meeting, Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah was pulled up for failing to handle the violence in the Valley in which over 50 protestors were killed in police action since June 11.

However, Omar defended his government's handling of the situation. He also told the Prime Minister that most parties in the state were not in favour of Governor's rule.

It is also learnt that the National Conference put forward the demand for autonomy for Kashmir while the Panthers Party demanded delimitation of constituencies.

Meanwhile, the PDP has dismissed as a "joke with the people of Kashmir" Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's fresh initiative to end the unrest in the Valley.

"The Prime Minister's statement (at the meeting with an all-party delegation from the state) is a joke with the people of Kashmir", PDP patron and former chief minister Mufti Mohd Sayeed said.

Sayeed described as a "futile exercise" the meeting the PM had with the delegation alleging "nothing will come out of it".

Earlier in the evening, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh issued an appeal to the youth and said they should go back to their schools and colleges and resume studies.

"Key to the problem in Kashmir is a political solution that addresses the alienation and emotional needs of the people," Singh said.

Singh added that a political solution could only be achieved through a sustained internal and external dialogue.

"We are ready for this and are willing to discuss all issues within the bounds of democratic process," he said.

In a televised speech in Urdu, he said he could understand the "dard aur mayusi" of the people.

Calling for a new beginning, the Prime Minister said there had been very little development ("bahut kam tarakki") in Jammu and Kashmir.

Singh also spoke on the role of security forces in the Valley and urged the state government to take action to protect policemen and their families.

"Jammu and Kashmir Police and other security forces are performing an extremely challenging task in difficult circumstances... we should not do anything to demoralise the security forces," he added.

Prime Minister Singh also proposed to set up an expert group headed by Dr C Rangarajan with N R Naryanmurthy, Tarun Das and others to formulate a jobs plan for the state involving both public and private sectors.

(With IANS and PTI inputs)

J-K autonomy possible if all parties agree: PM - Politics - Politics News - ibnlive


----------



## GUNNER

*India's blinkered policy on Kashmir*

*Simon Tisdall 
guardian.co.uk, *

Indian finger-pointing over the upsurge in lethal violence in Kashmir suggests beleaguered Pakistan may soon face a bigger crisis than even the current floods disaster. Reviving tension over the divided territory, claimed in its entirety by both sides and the spark for two previous wars, has already upset Indo-Pakistan peace talks. More importantly for Britain and the US, a new Kashmir confrontation could derail their spluttering Afghan strategy.

About 50 people have died and hundreds have been injured in the biggest anti-India protests seen in the Kashmiri capital, Srinagar, for several years. The trouble flared on 11 June when a 17-year-old student was killed by police. Since then, thousands of young Muslims have defied attempts by the Indian security forces, the Jammu and Kashmir state government, and older-generation separatist party leaders to restore order.

In an echo of Iran's lost "green revolution", the youthful protesters organised using text messaging and social media such as Facebook and YouTube. Their wrath focused in particular on the so-called "black laws", otherwise known as the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, that authorises Indian security forces to stop, search, arrest and shoot suspects with impunity. As the beatings, detentions and curfews made matters worse, chief minister, Omar Abdullah, elected in 2008 as Kashmir's bright new hope, fell back on an old expedient  requesting army reinforcements from Delhi.

Despite plenty of evidence that the unrest was both spontaneous and rooted in decades of neglect, discrimination and repression of Jammu and Kashmir's Muslim majority, the Indian government has also stuck to an old story: blaming Pakistan. Delhi has repeatedly accused Islamabad of covertly backing efforts by militant Islamist groups such as Lashkar-e-Taiba, held responsible for the 2008 Mumbai attacks, to destabilise Kashmir. Now it says that Pakistan, switching tack, is at it again.

Interior minister Palaniappan Chidambaram told the Indian parliament last week:

_"Pakistan appears to have altered its strategy in influencing events in Jammu and Kashmir. It is possible that they believe that relying upon civilian unrest will pay them better dividends. But I am confident if we are able to win the hearts and minds of the people  those designs can be foiled."_

Such claims would be risible if they were not potentially so dangerous. India has good reason to believe that Pakistan, or elements within Pakistan, meddle in Indian-administered Kashmir. Since the separatist agitation began in earnest in 1989, at least 50,000 people have died, and much of that violence is attributable to outside interference, militants and weaponry. Although he did not say so, David Cameron's recent remarks in Bangalore about Pakistan "exporting terror" applied to Kashmir as much as to Afghanistan  hence the wild Indian applause.

But Delhi's blinkered Kashmir policy since partition in 1947  ignoring UN demands for a self-determination plebiscite, rigging elections, manipulating or overthrowing elected governments, and neglecting economic development  lies at the heart of the problem, according to Barbara Crossette, writing in the Nation.

The violence "is a reminder that many Kashmiris still do not consider themselves part of India and profess that they never will," she said. "India maintains a force of several hundred thousand troops and paramilitaries in Kashmir, turning the summer capital, Srinagar, into an armed camp frequently under curfew and always under the gun. The media is labouring under severe restrictions. Torture and human rights violations have been well documented." Comparisons with Israel's treatment of Palestinians were not inappropriate.

India's failure to win "hearts and minds" was highlighted by a recent study by Robert Bradnock of Chatham House. It found that 43% of the total adult population of Kashmir, on both sides of the line of control (the unrecognised boundary between Indian and Pakistan-administered Azad Kashmir), supported independence for Kashmir while only 21%, nearly all of whom live on the Indian side, wanted to be part of India. Hardly anyone in Jammu and Kashmir wanted to join Pakistan.

While most people said the Kashmir dispute was "very important" to them personally, 81% said unemployment was the biggest problem, followed by corruption, Bradnock found.

Although the violence has subsided in recent days, possibly due to flooding in Ladakh and the imminence of Ramadan, regional commentators have been sharply critical of Delhi's response and warn of more trouble to come.

"A death on 11 June was shrugged off as an incident. It took eight weeks for Delhi to rise from slumber and then only to offer boring cliches as balm. Shoot-at-sight orders have had no effect: you can't shoot a whole city," said MJ Akbar in the Times of India, before suggesting Pakistan's generals were seeking "revenge for [the 1971 loss of] Bangladesh through Kashmir". When it came to the Kashmir challenge, "the government doesn't have much of a clue," said Siddharth Varadarajan of the Hindu newspaper.

The US and Britain, and the UN, tend to keep mum on Kashmir for fear of riling India. But writing in the Washington Post, Pakistani author Mohsin Hamid said it was in their own interest to speak up. A durable settlement in Afghanistan required "a concerted effort" to bring India and Pakistan to the negotiating table  and that meant, first and foremost, ending their confrontation over Kashmir, he said. "If the US hopes to salvage any remotely positive outcome from its  war in Afghanistan, then it should move a resolution [of] Kashmir up its list of priorities."


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## somebozo

Good to see India's strong man softening up and admitting to defeat. There is nothing wrong with that. American admitted defeat in Vietname, Afghanistan and Iran. Cold water starting to dribble on "akhand bharat" and "atoot ang" visions. He also had to address them in Urdu knowing very well that its the national tounge of its nemisis in Kashmir dispute and wide adoption of Urdu by Kashmiris has lot to do with their sentiments towards Pakistan.


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## KS

somebozo said:


> Good to see India's strong man softening up and admitting to defeat. There is nothing wrong with that. American admitted defeat in Vietname, Afghanistan and Iran. Cold water starting to dribble on "akhand bharat" and "atoot ang" visions. He also had to address them in Urdu knowing very well it is the national language of its nemisis in Kashmir and wide adoption of Urdu by Kashmiris has very much to do with their sentiments towards Pakistan.



Defeat...??!!?? in wat way dude..?

There is a world of a difference between autonomy and independence.

Even if autonomy is granted (which it will not be cos all political parties agreeing is not gonna happen in India specially with the BJP already announcing that they will oppose the move) still then currency,foreign affairs,communication and defence will still be under India and Kashmiris will still be travelling under Indian passports.

p.s.:that kind of autonomy can be given to the valley alone. and not to Jammu or Ladakh for the simple reason they dont want one.


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## Ishan

Wht a Smart Comment by Manmohan Singh.. U smarty Manmohan 

He Know Many sections frm the Congress , Entire BJP and Many other Political Parties will never agree on Autonomy..


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## Awesome

As if this protest has anything to do with any party!

This is a people's protest, not a party's protest. The Indian PM is trying to deflect the blame onto political parties.


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## HitNRun

Buuda pagel ho gaya hai 
Kashmir banay ga Pakistan.... aj nahi to kaal ......


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## prototype

Mr MMS smartly put on the option of autonomy and many in Pakistan had already started partying feeling that their 63 yrs of struggle for Kashmir Independence had succeeded

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## Materialistic

Just a move of words, since he knows its not gonna happen.
Its 2 birds with one stone kinda thing. He is trying to show sympathy from Congress and GOI.


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## Pride

somebozo said:


> Good to see India's strong man softening up and admitting to defeat. There is nothing wrong with that. American admitted defeat in Vietname, Afghanistan and Iran. Cold water starting to dribble on "akhand bharat" and "atoot ang" visions. He also had to address them in Urdu knowing very well that its the national tounge of its nemisis in Kashmir dispute and wide adoption of Urdu by Kashmiris has lot to do with their sentiments towards Pakistan.



Do you understand autonomous region means or just want to post hence posted? Go and search autonomus regions of China in google to understand this concept..

@ topic: I think this is only a diplomatic move to calm the people. People will come on table to discuss and then discussion will go on. Similar case of Telangana, when statement has been given to calm the people and the discusson is still on..


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## indushek

Well these kind of conciliatory statements were to be made and who else is more suited for this than the PM that too who is seen as a soft and good natured person by everybody.

They will drag on saying this and that for some time (read one or two years) and then woosh everything is gone up like a puff of smoke. The dalals of independence like geelani and other BS guys are thinking to make max gains at the heat of the moment. GOI is doing a good thing by dragging it as long as possible.

All parties agreeing for autonomy to the valley, no way. Well in all this the one thing good for these overseas agents in our country is that they can show their masters across that they are working very well and ask for more commission and the masters to feel proud that they were able to create some ruckus. Bad things happening to oneself pale before even a hiccup for our neighbour. For India another hiccup which it will wash down with time.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

HitNRun said:


> Buuda pagel ho gaya hai
> Kashmir banay ga Pakistan.... aj nahi to kaal ......



Aur Pakistan banay ga Hindustan .... aj nahi to kaal ......


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## graphican

Ishan said:


> Wht a Smart Comment by Manmohan Singh.. U smarty Manmohan
> 
> He Know Many sections frm the Congress , Entire BJP and Many other Political Parties will never agree on Autonomy..



Parties to Kashmir are Kashmiris, Paksitan and India. BJP, Congress and any other political party of India is within India and not party to Kashmir as dispute.


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## Pride

HitNRun said:


> Buuda pagel ho gaya hai
> Kashmir banay ga Pakistan.... aj nahi to kaal ......



Show some respect to our PM? He is not like your 10%..

Once Ghalib said, I repeat today "Dil Bahlane ko Ghalibe ye khayal achha hai".....keep dreaming.. good for you..


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## somebozo

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> Aur Pakistan banay ga Hindustan .... aj nahi to kaal ......



Hindustan bane ga Muglistan, aaj nahe to kal. Dont forget from which route all these central asian warriors came to dominate India.



Pride said:


> Show some respect to our PM? He is not like your 10%..



Show some respect to our PM? He is not like your Chiniyaki expert!


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## Pride

Asim Aquil said:


> As if this protest has anything to do with any party!
> 
> This is a people's protest, not a party's protest. The Indian PM is trying to deflect the blame onto political parties.



AA, this is associated with Party and separatist leaders.. There are many parties involved to get profit out of it.. the first one is JKLF.. and second is PDP (not directly but indirectly).. Once they find Autonomy is lucrative offers for their political career they will sell their own people..


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

somebozo said:


> Hindustan bane ga Muglistan, aaj nahe to kal. Dont forget from which route all these central asian warriors came to dominate India.



Never mind...I am fine with the name Mughalistan... we are not ashamed of our past ...perhaps you are!! and in Mughal period itself India was still known as Hindustan.


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## Pride

somebozo said:


> *Show some respect to our PM? He is not like your Chiniyaki expert![/*QUOTE]
> 
> your PM.. lol you even dont respect your PM how could you expect us to do that..
> 
> And I think you were trying to write "Chanakya", (what about taking some history classes?) and insulting our PM.. but sorry this is appreciation for us if he is expert on Chanakiyan theory...

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## ice_man

prototype said:


> Mr MMS smartly put on the option of autonomy and many in Pakistan had already started partying feeling that their 63 yrs of struggle for Kashmir Independence had succeeded



you think currently Pakistanis are concerned??? Pakistanis have floods to care about & terrorism in our country! Kashmir Deserves Independence and should attain it! we have no wish to undermine them! 

BUT Manthemohan Singh is just trying to calm the situation that has got out of control of indian government! its his way of making the protestors calm down for a year or 2 so that indian army can reinforce itself against protestors=freedom fighters!


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## prototype

graphican said:


> Parties to Kashmir are Kashmiris, Paksitan and India. BJP, Congress and any other political party of India is within India and not party to Kashmir as dispute.



As far as we control kashmir the only players involved in this game r Indian political parties(and i said Indian-now dont jump up from ur seat that i dont named Kashmir),rather than just watching Pakistan have no role to play in it

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## Materialistic

> Never mind...I am fine with the name Mughalistan... we are not ashamed of our past ...perhaps you are!! and in Mughal period itself *India was still known as Hindustan*.



that's against the facts, The name India, Hindustan and even the name Hindu is all given by British. And this region included several different states, many enemies of eachother. Today's India is the largest that this country ever became even as Mughal Sultanate it din't include many of todays Indian states.

Hinduism exists in this region from thousands of years but it was not given any specific name, people were moreover recognized by the Gods they followed. 

Hinduism was a name given by British to the religions of this region all but except budhism and jainism. 

As a proof to my claim here is a link to a documentary where a Hindu guy mentions it all himself.






I just shared it as a piece of knowledge so pls don't take it negative.


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## graphican

@Karthic Sri

Had you diagnozed the problem right, you must had found its treatment in 60+ years. Situation in Kashmir is only worsening is indication whatever you imagine is their problem is factually not. Why is it so hard to understand Kashmir doesn't want to be part of India. Simple.

What I see is Problem is not out there in Kashmiris, they from the day one are determined and consistent in their demand. Problem is inside, inside the heart and mind of India who is not willing to hear and see what they say. You may even Identify and Identify that well that Kashmiris are not Indians but stake of India are probably too high that India is not ready to accept that. So reality is clear, its matter of accepting it or denying it. But once you identify the real centre of problem, you will move in a direction that will bring solution. Otherwise "barking at the wrong tree" doesn't help and that should have been clear by now.

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## prototype

ice_man said:


> ]you think currently Pakistanis are concerned??? Pakistanis have floods to care about & terrorism in our country![/B] Kashmir Deserves Independence and should attain it! we have no wish to undermine them!
> 
> BU*T Manthemohan Singh* is just trying to calm the situation that has got out of control of indian government! its his way of making the protestors calm down for a year or 2 so that indian army can reinforce itself against protestors=freedom fighters!



just scroll up again and see post no 2,it gave me a feeling u r not that concerned about the floods and terrorism

and by the way its not *manthemohan*,its Manmohan,hope u understand that


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## graphican

IndianRobo said:


> Atlast Dr Manmohan Singh Spoke out... I now get a Feeling of The curfew being Relaxed Within a Period of Time.. Well Police has to be held responsible of Using Bullets for Stones, Not fair Indeed....
> 
> Fake Encounters have to Be Investigated and If Found Guilty Hang the Guilty to death.... *Omar Abdullah Must resign and His Father Dr Farooq Abdullah should step in or Declare Presidents Rule*



you are still an example of "barking at the wrong tree" my friend. If this would bring peace to the Kashmiris then go ahead. By suppressing them, you cannot satisfy them. I could be wrong but you may try putting more military or Presidential Rule or even anything more worse on them. Kashmiris have stoopd more than ever before and no matter what India did, it couldn't "kill" the spirit of Freedom in Kashmiris.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Materialistic said:


> that's against the facts, The name India, Hindustan and even the name Hindu is all given by British. And this region included several different states, many enemies of eachother. Today's India is the largest that this country ever became even as Mughal Sultanate it din't include many of todays Indian states.
> 
> Hinduism exists in this region from thousands of years but it was not given any specific name, people were moreover recognized by the Gods they followed.
> 
> Hinduism was a name given by British to the religions of this region all but except budhism and jainism.
> 
> As a proof to my claim here is a link to a documentary where a Hindu guy mentions it all himself.
> 
> YouTube - &#x202a;Hinduism- 2&#x202c;&lrm;
> 
> I just shared it as a piece of knowledge so pls don't take it negative.



Hindustan is derived from the Persian word Hindu, which is itself is derived from Sindhu, the original Sanskrit name of Indus River. Sindhu is a river in Sanskrit, in Persian it becomes Hindu. This together with a popular suffix gave birth to the word Hindustan, which was rendered as Hindustan. Literally, the word means land of the Hindus. 

Plus you might refer to post 70 onwards..as I was discussing the same with Muse

http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...68560-why-not-pakistan-sea-5.html#post1054913


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## IndianRobo

graphican said:


> you are still an example of "barking at the wrong tree" my friend. If this would bring peace to the Kashmiris then go ahead.



Well,Uproot the Problem not the Medium, Omar is New to Politics and Given a Very Delicate State to Handle, which He failed to, During Farooq Abdullah there were no such Issues at all...

Iam Right here.... Omar must resign and as Dr MM Singh Said, Create more job Opportunities for Unemployed Youths and More Infrastructures have to come up there for the Living to go Smooth, And I aint barking at the Wrong Tree... *Its somebody's Consciousness Which is Getting Hurt*


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## Marxist

Materialistic said:


> that's against the facts, The name India, Hindustan and even the name Hindu is all given by British. And this region included several different states, many enemies of eachother. Today's India is the largest that this country ever became even as Mughal Sultanate it din't include many of todays Indian states.
> 
> Hinduism exists in this region from thousands of years but it was not given any specific name, people were moreover recognized by the Gods they followed.
> 
> Hinduism was a name given by British to the religions of this region all but except budhism and jainism.
> 
> As a proof to my claim here is a link to a documentary where a Hindu guy mentions it all himself.
> 
> YouTube - &#x202a;Hinduism- 2&#x202c;&lrm;
> 
> I just shared it as a piece of knowledge so pls don't take it negative.



u r wrong reference of Hindu is in older sanskrit verses this is from Vishnu Purana

*Aaasindo Sindhu Paryantham Yasyabharatha Bhoomikah

Mathrubhuh Pithrubhoochaiva sah Vai Hindurithismrithaah*

indicate that whoever considers the land of Bharatha Bhoomi between Sapta Sindu and the Ocean as his or her motherland and fatherland is known as Hindu

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## Pride

Materialistic said:


> that's against the facts, The name India, Hindustan and even the name Hindu is all given by British. And this region included several different states, many enemies of eachother. Today's India is the largest that this country ever became even as Mughal Sultanate it din't include many of todays Indian states.
> 
> Hinduism exists in this region from thousands of years but it was not given any specific name, people were moreover recognized by the Gods they followed.
> 
> Hinduism was a name given by British to the religions of this region all but except budhism and jainism.
> 
> As a proof to my claim here is a link to a documentary where a Hindu guy mentions it all himself.
> 
> YouTube - &#x202a;Hinduism- 2&#x202c;&lrm;
> 
> I just shared it as a piece of knowledge so pls don't take it negative.


 Sorry Sir, This piece of Info is wrong.. Hindu is derived from Sindhu/Indus and called by Persian and that is why it has been called Hindu-staan (Land of Hindus) which is persian.. as invaders from Middle east frst destroying Persia and then Afghanistaan hence they always referred us Hindustaan which includes only North India and current Pakistan... Please look for other and better history books..


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## EjazR

There is a thread already with a video of the full broadcast of the PM's speech.
*http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...reaches-out-kashmiri-youth-appeals-peace.html*
The J&K problem is not simple. There are 6 million people in the valley which are divided among pro-independance, pro-indian and pro-pakistani sentiments which is fluid. Then you have around 4.5 million people in Jammu and Ladakh who are mostly pro-Indian. A solution is when everyone goes for a compromise and those who don't see that are living in a fool's paradise.

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## Nahraf

If there are widespread protests in Indian-occupied Kashmir or in Zionist-occupied Palestine the news are never flashed every 10 minutes in world news channes as there are when there are protests in Tehran. The news media only reports what their master in Washington wants them to concentrate on.


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## graphican

prototype said:


> As far as we control kashmir the only players involved in this game r Indian political parties(and i said Indian-now dont jump up from ur seat that i dont named Kashmir),rather than just watching *Pakistan have no role to play in it*



You haven't been able to gain an inch on Kashmir keeping Paksitan out, but weather you like it or not, Pakistan is a party, probably more than you think it is.


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## EjazR

^^^Well Indian media had almost a 24/7 coverage of the current violence. That is why IMO even the sepratists should be reaching out to GoI and the rest of India as only that way they can resolve the issue.

Western media would be conerned or even Pakistani media will be conerned with their own interests and besides can do little to help them.

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## prototype

graphican said:


> You haven't been able to gain an inch on Kashmir keeping Paksitan out, but weather you like it or not, Pakistan is a party, probably more than you think it is.



for the last 63 yrs we r keeping each and every inch,controlling it unanimously,by calling the area disputed Pakistan thinks they r a party in this deal,but Indian policy against which even not a single other nation ever tried to enter as a 3rd party clearly shows who is the single player in the deal

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## EjazR

*3 policemen killed in Sopur Lastupdate:- Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com*

Srinagar, Aug 10: After a lull in militancy related violence, suspected militants on Tuesday attacked evening carried out simultaneous attacks on three spots killing three policemen on one spot in the apple town of Sopur in north Kashmir.
Sources said three policemen were killed on the spot in the attack on the house of Muhammad Abdullah Dar, who unsuccessfully contested assembly polls in 2002 and 2008, at Yaseen Colony Arampora in Sopur.
However, he escaped unhurt in the attack on his house.
Simultaneous attacks were carried on the police station Sopur and the State Bank of India where CRPF personnel were posted to guard it. However, sources said no one was hurt in the attack at these spots where both men of Jammu and Kashmir police and CRPF were taken by surprise.
Sources said among the killed included two SPOs and one selection grade constable of JK police


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## EjazR

*GreaterKashmir Daily English Newspaper from Kashmir Srinagar, Kashmiri, Kashmir news Kashmir Discussion Forum,Srinagar,Latest News from kashmir, Lastupdate:- Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:30:00 GMT*

Jammu: Two women was killed and nine others, including two Army soldiers, were injured when a passenger bus was caught in cross fire after an Army convoy was ambushed by militants in Rajouri district today.

A group of militants perched on hill tops fired at the vehicle of a Commanding Officer of Rashtriya Rifles. A bus passing through the area got hit in the attack, Senior Superintendent of Police (SSP), Rajouri, R K Jalla told PTI.

In the firing, two women died and 9 others were injured, two of them Army jawans, reports said.

Army troops returned the fire and a heavy gun battle followed which was continuing till last reports came in.

The bus passengers have been evacuated and the injured admitted to a hospital in Rajouri.


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## gubbi

In before India-bashing starts: 

RIP to the departed Security Personnel and civilians.

Now that the civilians have been evacuated, let hell loose and kill those MC/BC terrorists. Its unfortunate that two women died at the hands of militants, but hey, according to some here, they are martyrs!! Its ok when militants kill women and children in the name of 'freedom struggle'. Fvcking hypocrites!


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## linkinpark

RIP to the deceased.

These are Chakka militants who doesn't dare to fight man to man but kill women, children and innocents. No wonder they deserve dog's death they get at IA's hands.


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## wap7

Rajput Warrior said:


> LISTEN WAT THEY SAY!
> 
> youtube video 1 - January 03, 2009
> youtube video 2 - December 16, 2008
> 
> GOD BLESS KASHMIRIS



Those videos are ... old. Next you're going to post videos from 1970 and claim Bangladesh is yours.


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## foxbat

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> indeed a failed strategy from the get go. It's fanning more hatred. This is no new phenomenon it's been going on for decades now. Of course they'll blame us for their woes and for current ground realities which are not in their favour!



Sir.. Wont it be better if you worry about the ground realities in Pakistan instead of smiling at the ones in India. 

Our phenomenon has been going on for decades and will stay managed. Look where you have landed in 3 years..


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## Abu Zolfiqar

foxbat said:


> Sir.. Wont it be better if you worry about the ground realities in Pakistan instead of smiling at the ones in India.
> 
> Our phenomenon has been going on for decades and will stay managed. Look where you have landed in 3 years..



i dont laugh at the misfortunes of occupied peoples

i do laugh when i expose hypocrisy and flaws of the arguments of people like you and your comrades 

and just because I am discussing Kashmir and the uprising doesnt mean you have to bring up political/security issues in Pakistan --which is a totally different topic and will be treated as thusly.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Kashmir separatists reject Singhs autonomy offer​*
Wednesday, 11 Aug, 2010

_Our struggle is not for restoration of autonomy. It is to seek our right to self-determination, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq said. _

SRINAGAR: Separatist leaders in Indian-administered Kashmir dismissed Wednesday overtures from Prime Minister Manmohan Singh about political autonomy in the region following months of anti-India unrest.

Appealing to Kashmiri Muslims to give peace a chance, Singh had said Tuesday that his government would consider any consensus proposal for autonomy as long as it remained within the ambit of the constitution.

He also announced the creation of a panel of experts that would draw up a jobs plan for Indian-administered Kashmir where rampant unemployment  especially among young people  has fuelled resentment against Indian rule.

But senior Kashmir separatists rejected Singh's initiative.

Our fight is for independence, not autonomy, Javed Mir, a former militant commander turned separatist politician, told AFP.

We will continue our fight for our goal through peaceful protests, said Mir, who had been among the first Kashmiris to take up arms in 1989 when frustration against Indian rule boiled over into a full-blown insurgency.

Under the terms of its accession to India in 1947 after independence from Britain and the sub-continent's division  Kashmir was granted a relatively high degree of autonomy, excluding areas like defence and foreign affairs.

But those powers have been eroded over the years, and renewed promises of greater autonomy gain little traction in separatist circles.

Our struggle is not for restoration of autonomy. It is to seek our right to self-determination, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, an influential moderate separatist, told AFP.

We should be allowed to decide whether we want to remain with India, accede to Pakistan or carve out an independent state, he said.

Kashmir is divided between India and Pakistan, which both claim the region in full and have fought two wars over their territorial dispute.

The Kashmir legislative assembly in 2000 passed a resolution favouring full restoration of the state's autonomy, but it was rejected by the then Hindu-nationalist government in New Delhi.

Autonomy is the main demand of the ruling National Conference, the state's biggest pro-India political party.

DAWN.COM | World | Kashmir separatists reject Singh?s autonomy offer

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## linkinpark

Thanks for rejecting. I was just wondering why MMS even extended this gesture (I feel its more like a token gesture to buy some time). And Mirwaiz Farooq can forget about right to self-determination in this and next life time. Its not going to happen if history is any guide.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

linkinpark said:


> Thanks for rejecting. I was just wondering why MMS even extended this gesture (I feel its more like a token gesture to buy some time). And Mirwaiz Farooq can forget about right to self-determination in this and next life time. Its not going to happen if history is any guide.



Just because many Indians and the Indian State are morally bankrupt and insist on continuing occupation and subjugation of the Kashmiris and denial of their right to self determination as promised them, and accepted by India, in the UNSC resolutions, does not mean those struggling against Indian occupation will give up or should give up.

Next time violence occurs you know exactly who to blame - Indians like yourself and your nation.

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## linkinpark

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Just because many Indians and the Indian State are morally bankrupt and insist on continuing occupation and subjugation of the Kashmiris and denial of their right to self determination as promised them, and accepted by India, in the UNSC resolutions, does not mean those struggling against Indian occupation will give up or should give up.
> 
> Next time violence occurs you know exactly who to blame - Indians like yourself and your nation.



Well I don't want to regurgitate same things which have been discussed to death on many threads on this forum. Frankly, its boring.

What I would like to state is that Kashmir's fate is firmly in India's hand as it is legally acceded to us. If you go by the world-wide support (or the lack of) that "separate kashmir" gets, one gets convinced that the resolution of this dispute will be to the satisfaction of India which most likely be status-quo. These days even big powers like US, UK also shudder to utter the K-word in front of Indians indicating the clout that India wields at the world stage and will do so more forcefully for a long time to come. Pakistan or the minuscule Kashmiri separatists have no leverage over India to resolve this issue. India has the time, patience and resources to weather through any storm of violence that will be thrown towards it.

India has developed a thick skin to the Kashmir issue and any violence that happens will be taken in its stride. You can blame all the violence in Kashmir on India if you want. You can scream at the top of you lungs that India is a morally bankrupt country, if you want. But, it is better if people realize that practically secession of Kashmir is not going to happen. Without strong world super power support none of these issues are going to get solved to the satisfaction of Pakistan or Kashmiri separatists as one case see on whose side these super powers are. The faster this realization dawns upon these parties the better it is for their lives and their future generations.

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## anathema

^^ Linkin let it go dost. Like we say 'Whatever helps them to sleep better'......

Pakistani's have been trying to rake up the issue through covert and overt means for the past i dont know how many years --- let them do it. We should just focus on improving Kashmir (development, jobs , etc) ...thats it !


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## mohan goyal

linkinpark said:


> Well I don't want to regurgitate same things which have been discussed to death on many threads on this forum. Frankly, its boring.
> 
> What I would like to state is that Kashmir's fate is firmly in India's hand as it is legally acceded to us. If you go by the world-wide support (or the lack of) that "separate kashmir" gets, one gets convinced that the resolution of this dispute will be to the satisfaction of India which most likely be status-quo. These days even big powers like US, UK also shudder to utter the K-word in front of Indians indicating the clout that India wields at the world stage and will do so more forcefully for a long time to come. Pakistan or the minuscule Kashmiri separatists have no leverage over India to resolve this issue. India has the time, patience and resources to weather through any storm of violence that will be thrown towards it.
> 
> India has developed a thick skin to the Kashmir issue and any violence that happens will be taken in its stride. You can blame all the violence in Kashmir on India if you want. You can scream at the top of you lungs that India is a morally bankrupt country, if you want. But, it is better if people realize that practically secession of Kashmir is not going to happen. Without strong world super power support none of these issues are going to get solved to the satisfaction of Pakistan or Kashmiri separatists as one case see on whose side these super powers are. The faster this realization dawns upon these parties the better it is for their lives and their future generations.


great pragmatic analysis buddy... u r right, nobody on world's forum do not utter K-word.


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## linkinpark

anathema said:


> ^^ Linkin let it go dost. Like we say 'Whatever helps them to sleep better'......
> 
> Pakistani's have been trying to rake up the issue through covert and overt means for the past i dont know how many years --- let them do it. We should just focus on improving Kashmir (development, jobs , etc) ...thats it !



Let them rake this issue wherever they want. Support for Kashmir issue has already dwindled and whatever is left is on ICU and it will not go on for long. At some point of time fatigue will set in and no one is resistant to this including kashmiri separatists and Pakistan. Everything is going in our favor, all we need to do is wait patiently and develop kashmir valley, so that jobless youth get occupied with some thing more productive.

I'm not going to discuss who is right or wrong because that has been done to death. I'm only interested in what will be the fate of this issue considering the strategic/economic value of Pakistan and India at the world stage.

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## indushek

People are so happy to see what is happening in Kashmir, well this is not new. Its happened before too, but no matter what India will not let go of Kashmir. Repeat this as many times as u want.


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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Just because many Indians and the Indian State are morally bankrupt and insist on continuing occupation and subjugation of the Kashmiris and denial of their right to self determination as promised them, and accepted by India, in the UNSC resolutions, does not mean those struggling against Indian occupation will give up or should give up.


Don't hide behind UN resolutions, when Pakistan has blatantly ignored the provisions of UN resolution 47 (remember it was under chapter-VI -nonbinding). Even Pakistan accepted the UN resolutions, pray then, why arent you guys abiding by it? 
It is Pakistan which has no moral say in the matter. It was Pakistan who initiated this nasty conflict by initially invading the then independent state of Kashmir in 1947/48 on flimsy grounds. It is Pakistan who has the blood of many innocents including numerous Kashmiris on its hands. And you talk of morals? What a fallacious argument! Talking about moral bankruptcy, take a good look at your own country.


> Next time violence occurs you know exactly who to blame - Indians like yourself and your nation.


Again that is indeed a very stupid comment. Dont generalize here. Similar yardsticks can the applied everywhere. The only people who are to blame are the 'aazadi' mongers - bloody opportunists who instigate the mobs and the "moral" support from across the border, which are responsible for the bloodshed that is happening today. Next time violence occurs, India shoould just take care of those 'aazadi' mongers. Period. Anyway, Kashmiris dont deserve leaders of the likes who bray for "a few more martyrs" to further their own personal agendas.

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## indiaworldpower

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Just because many Indians and the Indian State are morally bankrupt and insist on continuing occupation and subjugation of the Kashmiris and denial of their right to self determination as promised them, and accepted by India, in the UNSC resolutions, does not mean those struggling against Indian occupation will give up or should give up.
> 
> Next time violence occurs you know exactly who to blame - Indians like yourself and your nation.



Dont talk about bankruptcy buddy, see your own country first.

Now regarding the Kashmir, this is maximum any Indian government can do. Independence for Kashmir won't happent no matter how many people die. This is truth, take it or leave it.


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## KS

Good for us....for now we know exactly whom to blame for the violence.


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## DGMO

I'm surprised the seperatists (especially Mirwaiz) have rejected autonomy outright, as realistically that's the most they're going to get.

GoI needs to cut down on the poetic language and put some concrete gestures in place. Just sitting back and looking at the reaction of the GoI, and it does seem very slow-footed. That's not me having a dig, so please don't view it as one. But would be good to see some courage from the Indian leadership, something that they can turn around and say 'look at what we done in terms of action or a gesture to the Kashmiri's, that's unprecedented, we're serious about a solution'.

Yes the violence may die down, yes India has become thick skinned about Kashmir, but you've turned Kashmir into a dormant volcano. It will erupt again without tackling the issues head on (as the last three successive summers have shown). 

The only problem is, you can't quite estimate the intensity of the eruption next time.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

hindustany occupation forces have placed Mr. Umer under house arrest for the umpteenth time.

so much for being a ''democracy'' (go figure)


by the way, obviously the Kashmiris will reject any handouts like so-called autonomy. Interestingly enough, we granted almost full autonomy to Azad Kashmir and there are not many problems to report there.

obviously this is more than just economics or other factors....Kashmiris are existentialists and they deserve their right to choose the fate of their land and themselves.

they deserve that right free from threats, intimidation, torture and violence by the occupation forces of the increasingly troublesome neighbour

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## somebozo

Chacha Manmohan tera kiya hogaa....

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## gurjot

somebozo said:


> Chacha Manmohan tera kiya hogaa....

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## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> hindustany occupation forces have placed Mr. Umer under house arrest for the umpteenth time.
> 
> so much for being a ''democracy'' (go figure)
> 
> 
> by the way, obviously the Kashmiris will reject any handouts like so-called autonomy. Interestingly enough, we granted almost full autonomy to Azad Kashmir and there are not many problems to report there.
> 
> obviously this is more than just economics or other factors....Kashmiris are existentialists and they deserve their right to choose the fate of their land and themselves.
> 
> they deserve that right free from threats, intimidation, torture and violence by the occupation forces of the increasingly troublesome neighbour




US doesnt speak abt Kashmir,UK doesnt care abt Kashmir,Russia,France,China just turn a blind eye,the powers that may be just ignore it but Pakistan for all it is worth keeps harping Kashmir Kashmir as if it is going to make a darn difference.

One piece of advice..lokk inside ur country ppl...place it on a stable footing,push it onto the path of recovery and economic growth..then u can become the "thekedars of the Kashmiris".

Until then no one takes u seriously and the sooner u realise it the better for all.

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## DGMO

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> hindustany occupation forces have placed Mr. Umer under house arrest for the umpteenth time.
> 
> so much for being a ''democracy'' (go figure)
> 
> 
> by the way, obviously the Kashmiris will reject any handouts like so-called autonomy. Interestingly enough, we granted almost full autonomy to Azad Kashmir and there are not many problems to report there.
> 
> obviously this is more than just economics or other factors....Kashmiris are existentialists and they deserve their right to choose the fate of their land and themselves.
> 
> they deserve that right free from threats, intimidation, torture and violence by the occupation forces of the increasingly troublesome neighbour


Brother, if India entered into dialogue with Mirwaiz and co, and firm guarantees were made from the Indian side on autonomy. Total and absolute, with a drawdown of military forces, repeal of things like AFSPA, the Seperatists were invited to be part of the state Govt and even accepted, how would you feel?


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## Areesh

Perfect answer from Mirwaiz. They never wanted this so called autonomy so bounce it back on the face of MMS.


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## linkinpark

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> hindustany occupation forces have placed Mr. Umer under house arrest for the umpteenth time.
> 
> so much for being a ''democracy'' (go figure)
> 
> 
> by the way, obviously the Kashmiris will reject any handouts like so-called autonomy.* Interestingly enough, we granted almost full autonomy to Azad Kashmir and there are not many problems to report there.*



Autonomy to Azad Kashmir is a joke. If Pakistan really believed in the independence of Kashmir, the below oath wouldn't be in the constitution of AZK. The intention of Pakistan was always the accession of J&K.



> *Oath of President*
> 
> " I,--------------------------------do solemnly swear that I am a Muslim and believe in the Unity and oneness of Almighty Allah, His angels, the Books of Allah, the Holy Quran being the last of them, his prophets, the absolute finality of the prophethood of Muhammad (Peace be upon him), the day of Judgment , and all the requirements and teachings of the Holy Quran and Sunnah;
> *That, as President of Azad Jammu and Kashmir, I will remain loyal to the country and the cause of accession of the State of Jammu and Kashmir to Pakistan;*
> That I will perform my functions as President honestly and faithfully; and
> That I will not directly or indirectly communicate or reveal to any person any
> official secret which may come to my knowledge as President;
> So Help me Allah. "



AJK Interim Constitution Act 1974 by Asif Raja

See page 40

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## Tshering22

I think that's proof enough for their violent intentions. Time to play the second part of Good cop Bad cop.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> Don't hide behind UN resolutions, when Pakistan has blatantly ignored the provisions of UN resolution 47 (remember it was under chapter-VI -nonbinding). Even Pakistan accepted the UN resolutions, pray then, why arent you guys abiding by it?
> It is Pakistan which has no moral say in the matter. It was Pakistan who initiated this nasty conflict by initially invading the then independent state of Kashmir in 1947/48 on flimsy grounds. It is Pakistan who has the blood of many innocents including numerous Kashmiris on its hands. And you talk of morals? What a fallacious argument! Talking about moral bankruptcy, take a good look at your own country.


We are abiding by the resolutions, as has been pointed out repeatedly, despite Toxic trying to hide the fact, that the UN resolutions did not require Pakistan to withdraw unilaterally, and there were multiple rounds of negotiations between the UN, India and Pakistan on setting up a plan for demilitirization that would not allow one side or the other to take military advantage of the situation. These talks resulted in numerous proposals being advanced, almost all of which were rejected by India, until India simply violated its commitment to the UNSC resolutions.

And today not only has India reneged on its commitment to the UNSC resolutions and therefore its commitment and promise to the Kashmiri people (the Governor General of India noted that Accession would be conditional to a plebiscite when accepting the Instrument of Accession), but it continues to justify repression and occupation by hiding behind irrational and immoral arguments.


> Again that is indeed a very stupid comment. Dont generalize here. Similar yardsticks can the applied everywhere. The only people who are to blame are the 'aazadi' mongers - bloody opportunists who instigate the mobs and the "moral" support from across the border, which are responsible for the bloodshed that is happening today. Next time violence occurs, India shoould just take care of those 'aazadi' mongers. Period. Anyway, Kashmiris dont deserve leaders of the likes who bray for "a few more martyrs" to further their own personal agendas.


I am not generalizing - that is the position of most Indians is it not? To continue occupation and repression of Kashmir in the name of INDIAN nationalism (not in the name of Kashmir).

The people to blame for violence and and chaos are then the Indian Public and the Indian State, that refuse to let the Kashmiris exercise their right of Self Determination.

And keep telling yourselves lies to make yourself feel better, but I would wager that Kashmir has plenty of rocks and stones to throw at Indian occupation forces - Pakistan does not have to supply them.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

linkinpark said:


> Autonomy to Azad Kashmir is a joke. If Pakistan really believed in the independence of Kashmir, the below oath wouldn't be in the constitution of AZK. The intention of Pakistan was always the accession of J&K.



It is 'autonomy' not 'Independence'. Nothing wrong with the oath so long as the people in AK can run their own administration in most affairs. That should get even better now that the GoP and the provinces have passed the 18th Amendment which dilutes Central control. 

But in any case, what does it matter that the oath swears loyalty to Pakistan, since in a plebiscite the oath will carry no weight whatsoever.


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## DGMO

Areesh said:


> Perfect answer from Mirwaiz. They never wanted this so called autonomy so bounce it back on the face of MMS.


To be fair, they should grab it with both hands, as I touch on in my earlier post, they're not going to get more than that.

They may believe that they're speaking from a position of strength, and that India is on the backfoot, but India is playing the sponge game. And the bottom line is, they can, because they have for decades.

So they'll just continue to soak everything up Kashmiri's can throw at them. But they won't offer anything more than autonomy, never have done, never will. 

That's India's red line and that's just reality.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

linkinpark said:


> Well I don't want to regurgitate same things which have been discussed to death on many threads on this forum. Frankly, its boring.
> 
> What I would like to state is that Kashmir's fate is firmly in India's hand as it is legally acceded to us. If you go by the world-wide support (or the lack of) that "separate kashmir" gets, one gets convinced that the resolution of this dispute will be to the satisfaction of India which most likely be status-quo. These days even big powers like US, UK also shudder to utter the K-word in front of Indians indicating the clout that India wields at the world stage and will do so more forcefully for a long time to come. Pakistan or the minuscule Kashmiri separatists have no leverage over India to resolve this issue. India has the time, patience and resources to weather through any storm of violence that will be thrown towards it.
> 
> India has developed a thick skin to the Kashmir issue and any violence that happens will be taken in its stride. You can blame all the violence in Kashmir on India if you want. You can scream at the top of you lungs that India is a morally bankrupt country, if you want. But, it is better if people realize that practically secession of Kashmir is not going to happen. Without strong world super power support none of these issues are going to get solved to the satisfaction of Pakistan or Kashmiri separatists as one case see on whose side these super powers are. The faster this realization dawns upon these parties the better it is for their lives and their future generations.



I don't just have to 'blame' India, it is obvious the violence is India's fault since India is the one reneging on the commitment to allow Kashmiris to exercise their right to self-determination as promised and accepted in the UNSC resolutions. And India dare not raise the issue of 'accession' as validating the legality of Kashmir's annexation, because if India does so, then it will lose Junagadh and the other States that it occupied, one of which legally acceded to Pakistan.

The world will do nothing, as it has done nothing on the Israeli Palestinian front, but the Kashmiris will never accept an immoral and illegal occupation of their land and people and the denial of their right to self-determination.

Every few years Indians start ranting about 'Kashmiris accept India now' only to find large scale riots/protests dashing their claims into the dirt. India has had 60+ years to 'integrate Kashmiris' and provides Kashmir more direct subsidies per capita than any State in the Indian Union, yet this is the extent of your influence and the extent of the 'respect' that the murderous Indian State gets:

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## linkinpark

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It is 'autonomy' not 'Independence'. Nothing wrong with the oath so long as the people in AK can run their own administration in most affairs. That should get even better now that the GoP and the provinces have passed the 18th Amendment which dilutes Central control.
> 
> But in any case, what does it matter that the oath swears loyalty to Pakistan, since in a plebiscite the oath will carry no weight whatsoever.



Then how is 'Azad Kashmir' is really azad when it is firmly under the grip of federal govt. of Pakistan with only nominal autonomy. There is no difference in the way AZK and Indian kashmir administered. IK has autonomy except for defense, communication and foreign policy. Its same in AZK as well. Indian Kashmir has CM instead of PM and governor instead of President. So, I don't see any difference between their status.


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## KS

DGMO said:


> To be fair, they should grab it with both hands, as I touch on in my earlier post, they're not going to get more than that.
> 
> They may believe that they're speaking from a position of strength, and that India is on the backfoot, but India is playing the sponge game. And the bottom line is, they can, because they have for decades.
> 
> So they'll just continue to soak everything up Kashmiri's can throw at them. But they won't offer anything more than autonomy, never have done, never will.
> 
> That's India's red line and that's just reality.



If only the Kashmiris can see the reality that u have already understod,there is no need for this violence.

They need to understand we have the men,money,means and the will to continue.


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## Awesome

Not only the separatists but even those parties that work with Indian government have rejected this

*PM's initiative a "joke" with the people of Kashmir: PDP - Hindustan Times*

ammu and Kashmir's main opposition PDP tonight dismissed as a "joke with the people of Kashmir" Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's fresh initiative to end the unrest in the Valley. "The Prime Minister's statement (at the meeting with an all-party delegation from the state) is a joke with the people of Kashmir", PDP patron and former chief minister Mufti Mohd Sayeed said.

Sayeed described as a "futile exercise" the meeting the PM had with the delegation alleging "nothing will come out of
it".

He said Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah had convened a meeting of all political parties a month ago
and decided to send a delegation to meet the Prime Minister.

However, all the parties had already met Singh separately before today's meeting, Sayeed added.

The Mufti said economic and employment package was not a solution to the Kashmir problem and suggested the separatists,
including hardline Hurryat Conference leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani, be invited to resolve the issue.


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## Awesome

Won't allow marches, then people will pick up stones!

To scuttle march, Geelani, Mirwaiz put under house arrest



> Police on Wednesday put Srinagar and other major towns of Kashmir under curfew and separatists under house arrest to thwart a proposed march to Pampore, the hometown of senior Hurriyat leader Sheikh Abdul Aziz, who was killed this day in 2008 when police and Army fired on protesters marching towards Muzaffarbad.
> 
> Police and CRPF men were deployed in strength outside the house of Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, chief of the Hurriyats moderate faction who had threatened to forcibly break free of the house arrest.
> 
> Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Mirwaizs hardline counterpart, was also confined to his house, though only a few days ago, the state government had promised him political space in exchange for using his influence to prevent protesters from pelting stones and burning properties. Geelani helped clam the streets a little, but was struggling to steer the unprecedented unrest.


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## Awesome

gubbi said:


> Why is this Mirwaiz guy still breathing, I dont understand. He was among the first ones to pick up a gun under the misguidance of some people across the border. He has been responsible for killing a few Indian security personnel. Some one should seek revenge for his crimes.


When did he pick up a gun.


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## gubbi

Asim Aquil said:


> When did he pick up a gun.



My bad. I confused him with someone else. Apologies.


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## Jackdaws

The situation is very much different than in the 80s and 90s. A lot of Indians are sympathetic to the Kashmiris - as an Indian, I don't want the Army to shoot innocent citizens of my country for merely protesting. I would like it if the govt. gave Kashmir a reasonable amount of autonomy.

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## TOPGUN

Let people live in peace and let live for GOD's sake... india seems to be follwing israel's foot steps as they do with the palestine's. Let these people decide what they want and leave them in peace otherwise sooner or later you will pay for it and then cry...


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## foxbat

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i dont laugh at the misfortunes of occupied peoples
> 
> i do laugh when i expose hypocrisy and flaws of the arguments of people like you and your comrades
> 
> and just because I am discussing Kashmir and the uprising doesnt mean you have to bring up political/security issues in Pakistan --which is a totally different topic and will be treated as thusly.



Sir.. No region is an island. While I agree that the topic here is Kashmir, the reason I passingly refered to Pakistan is because of the following reason

- The support for the so called occupied land is all fine. However what I find funny is that a lot of Pakistani members here are enjoying that India is getting troubled in Kashmir despite the fact that within Pakistan last 4 years have seen it degenerating from a flourishing economy growing at close of 9% to a country that came within a whisker of defaulting on its debt obligations and is still in a foreign debt mess. A lot of us believe that its Paksitan's obscession with Kashmir and its decision to use insurgency as a tool of state policy that lead to the extremism that is visible in large parts of the country. That in turn lead to the above economic and social slide that I menioned above. 

So you see sir, its not that unlinked, atleast in my view.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

foxbat said:


> Sir.. No region is an island.



thanks for your wisdom




> While I agree that the topic here is Kashmir, the reason I passingly refered to Pakistan is because of the following reason
> 
> - The support for the so called occupied land is all fine. However what I find funny is that a lot of Pakistani members here are enjoying that India is getting troubled in Kashmir despite the fact that within Pakistan last 4 years have seen it degenerating from a flourishing economy growing at close of 9&#37; to a country that came within a whisker of defaulting on its debt obligations and is still in a foreign debt mess. A lot of us believe that its Paksitan's obscession with Kashmir and its decision to use insurgency as a tool of state policy that lead to the extremism that is visible in large parts of the country. That in turn lead to the above economic and social slide that I menioned above.



no it doesnt...the poor economy is a global phenomenon --we werent exceptions. Though in our case, our decision to join the war on terrorism has had some blowback effects. We are situated in a tough geographical position and that puts us at peril for externalities of all kinds (not limited to the fact that we have natural disasters, and millions of refugees which help stagnate growth). Many other factors; ''extremism'' (in the Pakistani street) is not one of them though. From my view, people were more sympathetic to groups like taleban in 2003-2007 period than they are now. We are talking about now, and I see huge paradigm shift amongst even conservatives. 

your mention of ''extremism'' has no merit because even in the more conservative areas such as in KP, a secular pro-democracy political party (as opposed to a religious party like MMA) was elected in 2008. That automatically negates your statement.

i'm not denying existance of intolerance and [religious motivated]extremism in Pakistan, but it exists in other countries as well (yours is no exception). 

the issue of Kashmir is not a religious one; it's an *existential* one. It just so happens that Kashmir is a muslim majority region and much of the populace is against indian presence there. That is your own making, you artificially occupy land that has no affinity, loyalty or devotion to hindustan. That is clearly being exhibited via the ongoing protests (often which begin as a result of killings committed by your forces).......the future is the youth, and they are the ones being targetted

I dont enjoy seeing Kashmiri misfortune. But like i said, i love exposing hypocrites --especially those emanating from within your borders  




> So you see sir, its not that unlinked, atleast in my view.



totally irrelevant and poorly though out post, but nice try


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## SekrutYakhni

*Azad karo Kashmir ko!*


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## somebozo

Karthic Sri said:


> US doesnt speak abt Kashmir,UK doesnt care abt Kashmir,Russia,France,China just turn a blind eye,the powers that may be just ignore it but Pakistan for all it is worth keeps harping Kashmir Kashmir as if it is going to make a darn difference.
> 
> One piece of advice..lokk inside ur country ppl...place it on a stable footing,push it onto the path of recovery and economic growth..then u can become the "thekedars of the Kashmiris".
> 
> Until then no one takes u seriously and the sooner u realise it the better for all.



Wake up from your wet dream, google isnt that difficult to use.

Turkey, Saudi Arabia, China and UN have offical support for Pakistani stand on Kashmir.


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## GreenStar

This is obvious that the Kashmiri people have given there verdict that they don't want to be part of India.....in my opinion I think its best if India relinqush it's hold on Kashmir.. and give freedom to the people...and I am not saying that it should go to Pakistan...but that it should be a separate state. If that happens..then maybe tensions bewteen Pakistan and India can be resolved..and both parties can move on....but also it would show a great maturity for India to do so. I pray that this issue gets resolved..and that no more death's occur.


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## back me up

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/d...t-about-india-so-we-turn-our-back-on-kashmir/


Think of India and it&#8217;s all Gandhian saintliness, Ravi Shankar&#8217;s sitar, a whiff of incense and the feel-good beats of Bollywood Bhangra. These memories, sounds and smells conjure images of the world&#8217;s largest democracy, where tolerance and spirituality supposedly reign over realpolitik.
We don&#8217;t think of it as a country whose troops are jailing opposition leaders or placing them under house arrest, denying people the right to gather in prayer, beating children to death, or massacring stone-throwing protesters. The words &#8220;shoot to kill&#8221; are a grim relic from our own recent past, and certainly nothing we ever associate with India.
That&#8217;s why India is the world&#8217;s first &#8220;soft superpower&#8221;. It can barely do wrong for doing right, and if it does we don&#8217;t really want to know. As David Cameron made perfectly clear during his recent visit, we&#8217;re interested in India as the world&#8217;s second fastest-growing economy and by its contribution to the war on terrorism, but not how it treats its own people.
So despite the fact that 50 mainly young men and teenagers have either been shot or beaten to death in the last eight weeks in Kashmir; the two main separatist leaders have been jailed or placed under house arrest; that the Kashmir Valley has been locked down and the streets of Srinagar occupied by swaggering Indian troops who threaten housewives with big sticks, our leaders have remained completely silent.
Had these incidents been in Taliban-controlled parts of Afghanistan, or had the victims been Tibetans revolting against Chinese rule, we would have called it a massacre. But India&#8217;s great &#8220;soft power&#8221; is that the world wants to think the best of it.
To that end, our leaders overlooked the 53 young men and teenagers who were treated for bullet wounds in just one hospital in Kashmir&#8217;s state capital, Srinagar, last week. They had been shot either for throwing stones during protests against killings by Indian security forces in Kashmir &#8211; or for being in the wrong place at the wrong time in their own city.
This present wave of protests began after Indian soldiers shot dead three young Muslim men in the hope of passing them off as Pakistani terrorists and themselves as war heroes. They had lured them with the promise of jobs. A few weeks later a 17-year-old schoolboy was killed when Indian police fired a tear gas canister at his head.
Last week I interviewed Fayaz Ahmad Rah, a Srinagar fruit seller, as he mourned the death of his nine-year-old son, Sameer. Neighbours told me they had seen members of India&#8217;s paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force beat him to death with sticks and then dump his body in stinging nettles. The CRPF claims he was in fact a protester and that he had been trampled by other demonstrators as they fled a police advance.
Fayaz said his son had been walking through their usually safe tiny back lanes to his uncle&#8217;s house 100 metres away after stopping to buy sweets. When he washed his son&#8217;s body for burial, there was a half-chewed toffee still in his mouth, he said.
Over the last eight weeks a round of teenage civilian deaths, protests and more shootings followed by further protests has sucked Kashmir into a bleak vortex. But since it began, not a single member of India&#8217;s security forces has been shot or killed. It couldn&#8217;t be a more unequal contest.
Luckily for India, it happened in Kashmir where the words &#8220;Muslim&#8221;, &#8220;Pakistan&#8221; and &#8220;militants&#8221; shield what is either bad marksmanship or a shoot to kill policy from scrutiny and criticism.
This decision to look the other way only fuels the anger in Kashmir. From his home where he was being held under house arrest last week, separatist spiritual leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq told me India had turned Kashmir into a &#8220;police state&#8221; and that British politicians and others were turning their back on it.
He had not been allowed to go to his mosque for more than six weeks, while other separatist Hurriyat leaders were also in jail or under house arrest. In many mosques throughout the state, only men over the age of 50 &#8211; regarded as beyond their stone-throwing years &#8211; have been allowed to meet to pray.
&#8220;It&#8217;s a direct interference in our religious affairs, a situation in which in a muslim state, if we&#8217;re not allowed to pray, the Muftis will say we have to call a war on the state,&#8221; he said.
Those demonstrating are part of a new generation born into violent protest which has seen leaders like Mirwaiz Umar Farooq sacrifice their credibility for talks with India, which came to nothing. &#8220;People now ask the question &#8216;you went for dialogue, what did you get? Did the killings or violence or disappearances stop?&#8217; All it did was undermine the credibility of those who wanted, like me, to give dialogue a chance,&#8221; he said.
He believes India is not sincere about talks and is only interested in continual delay in the hope that protests and the desire for Kashmiri independence will peter out.
India has its own arguments, of course. It focuses on earlier killings and &#8220;ethnic cleansing&#8221; of Kashmiri pandits, and the reluctance of Buddhist Ladakh and Hindu and Sikh majority Jammu to follow the Muslim-dominated Kashmir Valley into Pakistan or independence. It criticises the refusal of separatist parties to take part in state assembly elections.
These are valid points, and I certainly don&#8217;t have the answers to a problem which has blighted India and Pakistan and provoked three wars between the nuclear enemies since their independence from Britain.
But I do think Britain might come to regret its silence and India its troops&#8217; brutality. We risk alienating the remaining friends we have in the Muslim world and within our own substantial Kashmiri community in Britain. India risks losing the tremendous goodwill it had built up throughout the world over decades.
The Kashmiris, on the other hand, have little left to lose: the world has forgotten them.


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## S_O_C_O_M

Kashmir will be liberated. This cannot go on forever.

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## QueenOfTheOceans1

You can't blame India....the rest of the Muslim world has betray Pakistan and Kashmir.


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## brahmastra

QueenOfTheOceans1 said:


> You can't blame India....the rest of the Muslim world has betray Pakistan and Kashmir.



the rest of muslim world betrayed also Iraq and Afghanistan and Palestine and Chinese muslims and list goes on and on.....

sab apna fayada dekhte hain.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Linkinpark and Gubbi:

The UNSC resolutions and Pakistan's obligations under them have been discussed at length on a thread dedicated to the issue, and there is no point rehashing the claims all over again. Please read through the thread and respond there:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/7904-kashmir-resolutions-explanations.html


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## QueenOfTheOceans1

brahmastra said:


> the rest of muslim world betrayed also Iraq and Afghanistan and Palestine and Chinese muslims and list goes on and on.....
> 
> sab apna fayada dekhte hain.



They chose to ignore Iraq,Uyghurs,Kashmiris,Chechens ect. But they have not ignored Palestine...mainly because of their hatred for Jews.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

QueenOfTheOceans1 said:


> They chose to ignore Iraq,Uyghurs,Kashmiris,Chechens ect. But they have not ignored Palestine...mainly because of their hatred for Jews.


The Kashmiri and Palestinian causes are the only ones in which the demands of the parties opposed to the occupying force have international legitimacy through UNSC resolutions.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Karthic Sri said:


> If only the Kashmiris can see the reality that u have already understod,there is no need for this violence.
> 
> They need to understand we have the men,money,means and the will to continue.



Right, yet another morally bankrupt Indian - 'India will kill you, rape your women, occupy your lands and subjugate you, but India will not allow you to exercise the right to self determination that was promised you by the Governor General of India on Accession, and promised to you and again accepted by India in the United Nations Security Council Resolutions - all in the name of 'nationalism'.

In terms of a people with a mindset of hatred, bigotry and support for State Sponsored Terrorism and oppression of the rights of millions, Indians like you have no equal.

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## brahmastra

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The Kashmiri and Palestinian causes are the only ones in which the demands of the parties opposed to the occupying force have international legitimacy through UNSC resolutions.



All the stakeholders should follow UNSC resolution.
UNSC problem declare na kare to kya wo problem nahi rehta.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Kashmir youths chucking careers to pelt stones​*Himanshi Dhawan, TNN, Aug 12, 2010, 12.48am IST

NEW DELHI: For weeks after the Kashmir Valley erupted in anger, the stone-pelting protesters were described as semi-literate, unemployed youth being manipulated by secessionist leaders.

That's just a partial truth, as TOI found out after speaking to the men behind the masks. Many of the stone-pelters are youths with college degrees, some with academic careers or once-thriving businesses.

Such is the anger in the Valley that these youths, most of them with no prior political affiliations, are now willing to throw caution to the winds and give up their career dreams for "azadi".

A final year commerce student, Atiq, a "stone-pelter" himself, calls it a "haq ki ladaai (a fight for rights)". At 21, Atiq should have been weighing career options. But he says there are can be no career without a future.

"I am not scared that I will die by a bullet. I would have died doing something good. I have lived my life in the shadow of bullets. I can die by one without any remorse," he says in chaste Urdu.

But why pelt stones? "Throwing stones is retaliation. The forces have attacked us, shooting bullets at our chest and above the waist. They beat us without provocation. Won't we aim stones at their heads? The forces are lying when they say that they shoot in self-defence," he adds.

Agrees Riyaz, a management teacher at a city university who has participated in 80 to 90 protest marches by now. "I have studied in Saudi Arabia and central Asia. When I came back to Srinagar some years back, I was 17 years old and I realized that I had been living in an illusion. The reality was that we were constantly checked at gunpoint and were always under suspicion. There was no freedom here. It was a huge shock," he says in fluent English.

He explains how stone pelting came as a spontaneous reaction. "We have been subjected to unprovoked violence. The forces do it on purpose to spread fear and oppression. We can't fight the might of the government militarily, so we are employing every means possible to get our voice heard including stone pelting, speaking to the international media and writing articles that give our point of view," he says.

Kashmiris deserve "truth and justice", he says, adding the movement was a retaliation to India's unfulfilled promise. He has watched friends get picked up from their homes in the middle of the night, seen his family being searched at checkposts and decided he had had enough.

Hamid, a postgraduate, says that the disenchantment and anger has spread to entire families and is no longer restricted to certain groups. "My mother who never allowed me to step out in protest, yesterday said enough is enough and asked us to go out and protest," he says.

Atiq too says his parents know he pelts stones but do not discourage him from going out during curfew hours.

Despite weeks of shortages of food and medicines, and protesters landing up in hospitals with injuries, the resentment seems to have only grown. "It has never been like this. Between August 2009 to May 2010 there were only a few strikes called by the separatists and we were able to work even if we couldn't keep our offices open. But for the last three months, there has been a complete shutdown," says Hamid.

Read more: Kashmir youths chucking careers to pelt stones - India - The Times of India Kashmir youths chucking careers to pelt stones - India - The Times of India

===========

62 years of occupation, billions in subsidies, atrocities, torture, murder, rapes - and this is where the 'new' Kashmiri generation, that was supposed to have missed all that and see 'Shining India', is at.

Generally one would say to Indians in Urdu, 'ab sharam say doob maro', but the typical Indian response on this forum and elsewhere indicates a complete lack of 'sharam'.

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## Areesh

Truly impressive. I can just salute to these guys. Very brave indeed.

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## ARCHON

*



Kashmir youths chucking careers to pelt stones

Click to expand...

*
They will have a bright future skipping career and pelting stones...
Hope one day pelting stones become a competition in Olympics and a kashmiri from India will win gold.


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## MZUBAIR

Shame on Inidan troops


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## Areesh

birdofprey said:


> They will have a bright future skipping career and pelting stones...
> Hope one day pelting stones become a competition in Olympics and a kashmiri from India will win gold.



And you will win the gold medal of the best clown for your sarcastic post.


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## gubbi

*Spoilt Kashmir*


> The lead editorial in the latest issue of RSS mouthpiece Organiser makes for an interesting read. Discussing the crisis in the Valley, it says* Kashmiris on the Indian side are a &#8220;pampered lot,&#8221;* only too happy that they can afford to shut down the state for days at a stretch, and let their children roam on the streets instead of going to school.
> 
> It claims that Kashmiris are asking for more despite having better roads, electricity, education, railways, huge Central subsidy and the highest per capita income in the country (it does not). J&K, it says, gets the highest Central aid, which deprives poor states like Bihar and Uttar Pradesh.
> 
> &#8220;So what is the problem with these gentlemen? The problem is not that of Kashmir, but it is one for India to consider and confront.* Should secular India facilitate the creation of a fundamentalist Islamic state with the tax payers&#8217; money and indulgence? The country has to consider the price it is paying gratifying a recalcitrant, fanatic lot out to destroy India,&#8221;* it says.
> 
> *The people of Jammu and Ladakh are happy. Even in the Valley, only four districts &#8212; Srinagar, Sopore, Baramullah and Anantnag &#8212; join the protest. * &#8220;These are mostly Sunni Muslims fed on Wahabi fanaticism alien to Kashmiriat. Among the Muslims in J&K, the Shias are also not part of the protest. It is only a small segment of determined, indoctrinated Islamists who are intolerant of everything modern and Indian who create the trouble,&#8221; it says.
> 
> The Islamisation of Kashmir is a dangerous game, it says and points out that *&#8220;India&#8221; has to resolve with finality that nobody will be allowed to play with the integrity of the country. &#8220;The writ of Delhi has to run in every part of the country. It has to be enforced whatever the price we have to pay.* Only that clear message will douse the so-called fire in Kashmir,&#8221; it concludes.



For once I agree with the RSS viewpoint. (Before anyone jumps the gun to label the organization with any terms, be informed that it is NOT banned by any authority worldwide). Kashmiris are indeed a spoilt bunch and GoI needs to do everything in its power to ensure that its writ runs in every corner of India, Kashmir included, at any price.

Lol as for AM's comment about "shame/sharam". There is absolutely no shame, whatsoever, in a govt exercising its writ over territories it claims sovereignty over. 

Shame is when a govt cannot do the above and shame is when an armed force cannot even enter the territories the govt claims and has to resort to pandering to terrorists a.k.a. peace treaty according to some, to ensure a facade of peace.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*India asked to stop using UN helmets in IHK​*
SRINAGAR: The UN has asked Indian forces cracking down on protests in violence-plagued Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) to stop wearing the distinctive powder-blue helmets of the UN peacekeeping force, a UN official said on Wednesday.

About 300 members of the paramilitary Rapid Action Force have been deployed in IHK since last week to help quell nearly two months of civil unrest that has reportedly killed more than 50 protesters and bystanders. Dozens of members of the force, armed with automatic rifles and dressed in full riot gear, have used UN-marked blue helmets and shields as they faced off against the protesters in the streets of Srinagar, the regions main city. While the bulk of their duties consists of marching down streets in a show of strength, they have also taken part in baton charges and fired tear gas into the crowds.

Their use of UN equipment has perplexed many Kashmiris, who wondered why UN troops had taken a side in the conflict and were assisting Indian forces. Weve already informed the authorities about this problem, said an officer at the UN Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorised to talk to the media. The authorities have promised to solve this situation, he said. ap

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

===========

How will this get pinned on the 'Pakistan origin' UN spokesperson Haq I wonder ...

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## MZUBAIR

Kashmiri college girls confront Indian police who charged at them with batons during a protest over the alleged rape and murder of two Muslim women in Srinagar. Residents say the two women, aged 17 and 22, were abducted, raped and killed by security forces May 29 in Shopian town, south of Srinagar, after their bodies were found in a stream.

Shame on Indian troops....


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

MZUBAIR said:


> Shame on Inidan troops



This pic rather portrays Indian troop's patience..he has gun and the other guy has a stone hence...

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## Awesome

They will have a future when they are able to live freely without the threat of guns from a foreign force.


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## Areesh

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> This pic rather portrays Indian troop's patience..he has gun and the other guy has a stone hence...



Yeah exactly. That guy should have fired those small tiny bullets towards those kids in response to such BIG stones. 

You are a genius.

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## Break the Silence

MZUBAIR said:


> Shame on Inidan troops



Well, body language tells the whole story, despite having Gun, he tries to avoid those mad guys..

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## Awesome

gubbi said:


> *Spoilt Kashmir*
> 
> 
> For once I agree with the RSS viewpoint. (Before anyone jumps the gun to label the organization with any terms, be informed that it is NOT banned by any authority worldwide). Kashmiris are indeed a spoilt bunch and GoI needs to do everything in its power to ensure that its writ runs in every corner of India, Kashmir included, at any price.
> 
> Lol as for AM's comment about "shame/sharam". There is absolutely no shame, whatsoever, in a govt exercising its writ over territories it claims sovereignty over.
> 
> Shame is when a govt cannot do the above and shame is when an armed force cannot even enter the territories the govt claims and has to resort to pandering to terrorists a.k.a. peace treaty according to some, to ensure a facade of peace.


Oh right, they must be pampered when they object to them being killed for medals by the Indian security forces in fake encounters.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Areesh said:


> Yeah exactly. That guy should have fired those small tiny bullets towards those kids in response to such BIG stones.
> 
> You are a genius.



And he is not..so what does that prove??


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## ARCHON

Areesh said:


> And you will win the gold medal of the best clown for your sarcastic post.



dont get personnal.. i already know you are one clown.


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## gubbi

*First manage, then resolve*



> Which should come first, crisis management or conflict resolution when it comes to Kashmir? All Party Hurriyat Conference Chairman Mirwaiz Umer Farooq seems to think it is the latter and is not too happy with what he sees as Prime Minister Manmohan Singhs emphasis on the former. But *to quibble over this would be to miss the subtext of Mr Singhs conciliatory speech and his appeal to young people to return to the classroom.* *Those who feel that the present round of unrest is Kashmirs intifada are unnecessarily romanticising something that can only bring more pain and suffering to the people. In the cold hard light of day, the reality is orphaned children, bereaved mothers and wasted lives. The PM has offered a way out with his offer of dialogue and economic opportunities.* It may have come too late and it may not be as much as many hoped for. But *there can be no mega package or quick-fix solutions to a problem that has been festering for decades.*
> 
> *It is now fairly evident that Pakistan isnt a viable option for even the so-called separatists in the Valley.* *The neighbouring country holds out no hope or prospects for young people eager to integrate into a globalising world via the Indian economic growth engine.* So its counterproductive, not to mention shortsighted, for people like hardliner Syed Ali Geelani to accuse the prime minister of coming up with the same policy. He may have come up with a variant of earlier policies, but this time around he has also spelt out ways in which incremental steps can be taken to address the grievances of Kashmirs people, especially the youth. Even more obstructionist than Mr Geelanis statement is that from Asiya Andrabi, leader of the separatist Dukhtaran-e-Milat, when she accuses India of treating Kashmiris like beggars and asking to be set free to use their own resources.
> 
> *It would be far more effective and serve the purpose of Kashmir if these perennial Cassandras could come up with their own solutions. At least then a debate could ensue.* The PM has tacitly acknowledged the lapses in the governments approach towards the problem. He has clearly offered to begin the process of setting things right. Anyone, and that includes the separatists, have to meet him halfway. Those like Ms Andrabi who claim to speak for the people of Kashmir owe it to the younger generation to give peace a chance. The prime ministers speech will no doubt spur those inimical to peace to carry out more atrocities. But the government and its security forces must be mindful of this and exercise the maximum restraint. Once the process of crisis management begins, conflict resolution cannot be far away.



Look at the statements made by, what some call, "Kashmiri leaders" make.

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## Awesome

Break the Silence said:


> Well, body language tells the whole story, despite having Gun, he tries to avoid those mad guys..


The right thing would be if he came there without a gun in the first place. Indians ARE shooting at Kashmiris. 

The body language to note here is that of the Kashmiri who is not afraid of that gun.


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## Break the Silence

Asim Aquil said:


> They will have a future when they are able to live freely without the threat of guns from a* foreign force*.



They will have a future when are able to live freely without the threats of guns of terrorists sposnsered by ISI and some seperatist devils..

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> *Spoilt Kashmir*
> 
> 
> For once I agree with the RSS viewpoint. (Before anyone jumps the gun to label the organization with any terms, be informed that it is NOT banned by any authority worldwide). Kashmiris are indeed a spoilt bunch and GoI needs to do everything in its power to ensure that its writ runs in every corner of India, Kashmir included, at any price.
> 
> Lol as for AM's comment about "shame/sharam". There is absolutely no shame, whatsoever, in a govt exercising its writ over territories it claims sovereignty over.
> 
> Shame is when a govt cannot do the above and shame is when an armed force cannot even enter the territories the govt claims and has to resort to pandering to terrorists a.k.a. peace treaty according to some, to ensure a facade of peace.


 It is not India's territory to claim sovereignty over. The Kashmiris were promised a plebiscite, and the UNSC, including India, endorsed and committed to that right.

India's reneging on that commitment and occupation and attempted subjugation of the Kashmiris is indeed a shameful and morally bankrupt act, surpassed only by those who call for yet more oppression and atrocities to cement an existing occupation of a people and their land.

It is not Indian land, it is not recognized internationally as Indian land, and it never will be until Pakistan signs off on the dispute as 'resolved', or the Kashmiris are allowed to exercise self-determination and choose India.


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## MZUBAIR

indushek said:


> People are so happy to see what is happening in Kashmir, well this is not new. Its happened before too, but no matter what India will not let go of Kashmir. Repeat this as many times as u want.



Azad Kashmir, Gilgit, Baltistan is our.....n peace is there

But Jammu n Kashmir is not urs....
U cant go there.......if u will try to go bullits and stones will welcome u from the people of Kashmir...

Look at closely, Jammu n Kashmir is the part of Pakistan by all means ......we already have Azad Kashmir, Gilgit , Baltistan, Karakoram Range ..etc







Inshallah we wil get back our remaining land (J&K)


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## Awesome

gubbi said:


> *First manage, then resolve*
> 
> 
> 
> Look at the statements made by, what some call, "Kashmiri leaders" make.


We have always talked about right of self-determination for the Kashmiris, we're fine with them going independent.

---------- Post added at 08:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 AM ----------




Break the Silence said:


> They will have a future when are able to live freely without the threats of guns of terrorists sposnsered by ISI and some seperatist devils..


I don't see them attacking the separatists, they are attacking Indians though

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## Areesh

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> And he is not..so what does that prove??



It only proves that they hate him in that uniform.



birdofprey said:


> dont get personnal.. i already know you are one clown.



And I already know you are an Indian.


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## Chiru

When they attacked by stones like above pic. How can he target below wist firing.

Indian army should say enough is enough. Stones should match with bullets. 

Police should video tap entire stone pelting. Water board each and everyone involved in it.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Break the Silence said:


> They will have a future when are able to live freely without the threats of guns of terrorists sposnsered by ISI and some seperatist devils..



They will have a future when they can live out of the shadow of 500,000 soldiers enforcing Indian occupation of the region. 

They will have a future when they are allowed to determine their destiny through a plebiscite and promised them by India and the UN.


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## Break the Silence

Asim Aquil said:


> The right thing would be if he came there without a gun in the first place. Indians ARE shooting at Kashmiris.
> 
> The body language to note here is that of the Kashmiri who is not afraid of that gun.



yeah and will wait for a death by stones being thrown by deviated youth..and there is no diff bw them and force ,both belongs to same country India...


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Asim Aquil said:


> The right thing would be if he came there without a gun in the first place. Indians ARE shooting at Kashmiris.
> 
> The body language to note here is that of the Kashmiri who is not afraid of that gun.



I doubt any country's armed forces will go amongst hostile crowd, without a personnel weapon..take for example your own country's armed forces!!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> *First manage, then resolve*
> 
> Look at the statements made by, what some call, "Kashmiri leaders" make.



That's an editorial from the Hindustan Times - I fail to see what part was an actual or attributed statement of a Kashmiri leader.


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## gubbi

Asim Aquil said:


> Oh right, they must be pampered when they object to them being killed for medals by the Indian security forces in fake encounters.



I recommend that you go there and see for yourself what GoI has been doing for the state. And counter that with efforts in Bihar or Orissa or even the tackling of the Maoist problem by GoI.

It all boils down to the imbecilic leaders that Kashmiris have. Cant blame them, either. The best ones go abroad or find excellent opportunities in other parts of India while whatever remains, the leaders are drawn from the lot. With such leaders who have no idea of how to plan and direct the flock towards progress and prosperity, what do you expect?

Why, isnt even Pakistan facing a dearth of good leadership? It shows, isnt it?

As to fake encounters, yes, that is a problem, but not as huge as some members and people want to believe. There are far more worse human rights violations in other parts of the world than Kashmir. Surprisingly, some people support those violations, some in the name of religion and some in the name of nationalism.


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## MZUBAIR

*A young innocent Kashmiri student, aged 22, shot dead at point blank range by the draconian CRPF. They had promised a revenge killing after a trooper was shot dead by militants in the same location:*

*The Slaughterers awarded one hundred rupees and promotions for killing the innocent Kashmiri:*

Source

*Shame on Indian troops*


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## brahmastra

Asim Aquil said:


> We have always talked about right of self-determination for the Kashmiris, we're fine with them going independent.



then why don't you free your so called Azad Kashmir.

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## jeypore

> *final year commerce student, Atiq*, a "stone-pelter" himself, calls it a "haq ki ladaai (a fight for rights)". At 21, *Atiq should have been weighing career options*. But he says there are can be no career without a future.



This sentence is most interesting to me, Where the Dominant force of this young kids life is actually giving him an education to have a college degree!!!!! 

Funny, how a domination of a person affects!!!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> It all boils down to the imbecilic leaders that Kashmiris have.



Why should a leadership struggling for the right to self-determination promised them at the alleged accession and in the UNSC be considered 'imbecilic'? 

The only imbeciles here are the ones running Indian policy and supporting the continued occupation of Kashmir and its people, who care little for India as is obvious.

Gandhi, Nehru & Patel were 'imbeciles' by your logic then for struggling for independence from the British.


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## MZUBAIR

*Innocent Kashmirie needs guns & weapons to crush these terrorists troops*


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## brahmastra

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> They will have a future when they can live out of the shadow of 500,000 soldiers enforcing Indian occupation of the region.
> 
> *They will have a future when they are allowed to determine their destiny through a plebiscite and promised them by India and the UN.*



Lets do it.

This resolution was in the form of an assurance provided to India before the main U.N. Resolution of August 13, 1948, was to be implemented. The Resolution on Assurance said:-

1. Responsibility for the security of J&K rests with Government of India.

2. The sovereignty of the J&K Government over the entire territory of the State shall not be brought under question.

3. There shall be no recognition of the so-called Azad (Free) Kashmir Government.

4. The territory occupied by Pakistan shall not be consolidated to the disadvantage of the State of J&K.

5. The administration of the evacuated areas in the North shall revert to the Government of J&K and its defence to the Government of India, who will, if necessary, maintain garrison for preventing the incursion oftribesmen and for guarding main trade routes.

6. Pakistan shall be excluded from all affairs of J&K in particular in the plebiscite, of one should be held.

7. If a plebiscite is found to be impossible for technical or practical reasons, the Commission will consider other methods of determining fair and equitable conditions for ensuring a free expression of peoples will.

8. Plebescite proposal shall not be binding upon India if Pakistan does not implement Part I and II of the resolution of 13th August, 1948. 

(The resolution had called upon Pakistan to withdraw troops from occupied Kashmir)

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## ARCHON

The *first *thing kashmiris need to come to terms with is the reality of their situation. Much as many kashmiris want independence, it would help to recognize that it is a political impossibility. No one in the world wants an independent kashmir &#8212; Not india, not pakistan, not the west, not china, not europe. In addition, an independent kashmir would not exist for more than a month, were it to become independent in the first place. When india&#8217;s 1.2mm army can&#8217;t defend borders of kashmir, how do yo expect a country with a total population of 5mm and no history of having its own armed forces, completely landlocked, with 3 nuclear armed, massive armies on its border to maintain its independence? So for a start, it would help if kashmir&#8217;s muslims would at least aim for/demand something realistic.

*Second*, no point blaming the indian army for abuses. They only became an overpowering presence after the 1990 armed subversion &#8212; there were no human rights abuses before 90. Unfortunately, you brought it upon yourself.

*Third*, if kashmir&#8217;s muslims really care about kashmir and its uniqueness, it would help if they took a more sensible approach to rebuild for the future. Pelting stones, raising cries of jihad, provoking violence is at the end of the vandalism, not nation building. The irresponsibile nature of kashmir&#8217;s political leadership is truly remarkable.

*Fourth and last*, lets not kid anyone by arguing that the kashmiri rebellion is anything but an attempt to establish an islamic state. The suppressing of kashmiri culture and inculcation of arab culture in kashmir has probably been the most depressing aspect of the turmoil in the last 20 yrs.

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## MZUBAIR

Azad Kashmir, Gilgit, Baltistan is our.....n peace is there

*But Jammu n Kashmir is not urs (India)....*

U cant go there.......if u will attempt to do, stones will welcome u from the people of Kashmir...

*Look at closely, Jammu n Kashmir is the part of Pakistan by all means ......we already have Azad Kashmir, Gilgit , Baltistan, Karakoram Range ..etc*






*Inshallah we wil get back our remaining land (J&K)*


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

brahmastra said:


> Lets do it.
> 
> This resolution was in the form of an assurance provided to India before the main U.N. Resolution of August 13, 1948, was to be implemented. The Resolution on Assurance said:-
> 
> 1. Responsibility for the security of J&K rests with Government of India.
> 
> 2. The sovereignty of the J&K Government over the entire territory of the State shall not be brought under question.
> 
> 3. There shall be no recognition of the so-called Azad (Free) Kashmir Government.
> 
> 4. The territory occupied by Pakistan shall not be consolidated to the disadvantage of the State of J&K.
> 
> 5. The administration of the evacuated areas in the North shall revert to the Government of J&K and its defence to the Government of India, who will, if necessary, maintain garrison for preventing the incursion oftribesmen and for guarding main trade routes.
> 
> 6. Pakistan shall be excluded from all affairs of J&K in particular in the plebiscite, of one should be held.
> 
> 7. If a plebiscite is found to be impossible for technical or practical reasons, the Commission will consider other methods of determining fair and equitable conditions for ensuring a free expression of peoples will.
> 
> 8. Plebescite proposal shall not be binding upon India if Pakistan does not implement Part I and II of the resolution of 13th August, 1948.
> 
> (The resolution had called upon Pakistan to withdraw troops from occupied Kashmir)


Subsequent resolutions and UN commissions offer far more detail than that, and why Pakistan is not in violation of the UNSC resolutions, and that has been discussed on the UNSC resolutions thread - continue that discussion there after reading through the thread please.

In any case, at the moment India is point blank refusing plebiscite, let alone asking Pakistan to implement any one of the demilitarization plans recommended by various UN commissions, all of which were rejected by India.


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## Break the Silence

@ Muzbair comeon give it a try, why using terrorists and seperatist as indirect weapons,...


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## indushek

Yeah Yeah have been hearing this for a long time man. Whatever makes u happy and go to sleep.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> Second, no point blaming the indian army for abuses. They only became an overpowering presence after the 1990 armed subversion &#8212; there were no human rights abuses before 90. Unfortunately, you brought it upon yourself.



Incorrect - India caused the 'armed subversion' by reneging on her commitment to self-determination for the Kashmiris. When you forcibly occupy a people, some of them are bound to get frustrated.


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## MZUBAIR

Break the Silence said:


> @ Muzbair comeon give it a try, why using terrorists and seperatist as indirect weapons,...



Pakistan flag in Srinagar






Indian glag burned in Kashmir





*n u got the answer *


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## Break the Silence

MZUBAIR said:


> *Innocent Kashmirie needs guns & weapons to crush these terrorists troops*



Koi kasar chhod rakhi hai....????what the f*** happened with me, why I have opened this thread... Spoiled my morning..

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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It is not India's territory to claim sovereignty over. The Kashmiris were promised a plebiscite, and the UNSC, including India, endorsed and committed to that right.
> 
> India's reneging on that commitment and occupation and attempted subjugation of the Kashmiris is indeed a shameful and morally bankrupt act, surpassed only by those who call for yet more oppression and atrocities to cement an existing occupation of a people and their land.
> 
> It is not Indian land, it is not recognized internationally as Indian land, and it never will be until Pakistan signs off on the dispute as 'resolved', or the Kashmiris are allowed to exercise self-determination and choose India.



Contrary to what you want to believe, Kashmir is and will remain an integral part of India.

Btw, Pakistan on one hand wants right of self determination to Kashmiris. Fair enough. But why is Pakistan poking its nose in what is truly India's internal affairs? Isnt that none of Pakistan's business?

On the other hand isnt Pakistan's description of the area as a disputed territory an implicit acknowledgement of Pakistan's desire to covet the piece of prime real estate? Isnt that gluttony on Pakistan's part? Pakistan cannot even control all the territories it claims and yet covets Kashmir which it can never control, given India being right next door!!

What is it that Pakistan wants exactly, and why? After 60 plus years, isnt it about time that one atleast learns to manage one's own affairs and house?

---------- Post added at 08:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 PM ----------




MZUBAIR said:


> Pakistan flag in Srinagar



Seriously, cant you recognize your own country's flag? What a shame!

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## Break the Silence

MZUBAIR said:


> Pakistan flag in Srinagar



if that is Pakistan's flag, then which country's flag is this-

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## NWO

gubbi said:


> After 60 plus years, isnt it about time that one atleast learns to manage one's own affairs and house?


Did you guys have the Soviets knocking on your back door, and a unstable neighbor like Afghanistan? Yeah, I thought so. You guys can't control your country better then we can, you've just gotten luckier then we have.


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## brahmastra

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Incorrect - India caused the 'armed subversion' by reneging on her commitment to self-determination for the Kashmiris. When you forcibly occupy a people, some of them are bound to get frustrated.



Incorrect.
You tried to get 'Badlaa'(revenge) after what happened in '71 war.

You first tried to separate Punjab. You failed and your try ended in '84.
then you started the same ugly game with Kashmir in '89. but you will fail. Again.

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## parasite

You have some valid points so we have.......
It has become boring now....
Kashmir problem and PDF got to stay........


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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Gandhi, Nehru & Patel were 'imbeciles' by your logic then for struggling for independence from the British.



Big difference mate. Direction is what leaders give to a people. Their direction and leading by example achieved what an armed struggle could not. It even gave you guys a nation to call your own. 

What direction do the Kashmiri youth have from their so called leaders? Stone pelting and riots? Enuff said.

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## Break the Silence

I request all my Indian friends to stay away from this kinda flaming threads... Just once stop replying..and you will see the result.
SILENCE IS THE HARDEST ARGUMENT TO REFUSE...
THANX!

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## gubbi

NWO said:


> you've just gotten luckier then we have.


Wrong assumption. We got good leaders, always had, will always have. And leaders are a reflection of the society/people they represent. Prove me wrong, if you can.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

NWO said:


> Did you guys have the Soviets knocking on your back door, and a unstable neighbor like Afghanistan? Yeah, I thought so. You guys can't control your country better then we can, you've just gotten luckier then we have.



Naa we have China knocking on our back door ..we had unstable Pakistan on our East a while ago..now its west ..problem you have started to face in last couple of years..we have been facing them for last 30 yrs.


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## MZUBAIR

gubbi said:


> Contrary to what you want to believe, Kashmir is and will remain an integral part of India.
> 
> Btw, Pakistan on one hand wants right of self determination to Kashmiris. Fair enough. But why is Pakistan poking its nose in what is truly India's internal affairs? Isnt that none of Pakistan's business?
> 
> On the other hand isnt Pakistan's description of the area as a disputed territory an implicit acknowledgement of Pakistan's desire to covet the piece of prime real estate? Isnt that gluttony on Pakistan's part? Pakistan cannot even control all the territories it claims and yet covets Kashmir which it can never control, given India being right next door!!
> 
> What is it that Pakistan wants exactly, and why? After 60 plus years, isnt it about time that one atleast learns to manage one's own affairs and house?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, cant you recognize your own country's flag? What a shame!



Now open ur eyes.......







Also chk out the Kashmiri leader posters behind the protesters


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## MZUBAIR

Break the Silence said:


> if that is Pakistan's flag, then which country's flag is this-



Chk this out....u may forgot ur glasses...


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

^^check the source mate..Moin Ansari's blog

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## MZUBAIR

Break the Silence said:


> I request all my Indian friends to stay away from this kinda flaming threads... Just once stop replying..and you will see the result.
> SILENCE IS THE HARDEST ARGUMENT TO REFUSE...
> THANX!



U r steeping behind coz u cant defend the crimnal acts of ur terrorist Indian Arm troops


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## Break the Silence

MZUBAIR said:


> U r steeping behind coz u cant defend the crimnal acts of ur terrorist Indian Arm troops



*well, its very clear from your Avatar, whats your purpose?*
OH my!!! still you have managed to get my reply!!


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## MZUBAIR

Break the Silence said:


> *well, its very clear from your Avatar, whats your purpose?*
> OH my!!! still you have managed to get my reply!!



Look how much ur being hate in the Kashmir











Even childrens are burning 3 color flag


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## foxbat

MZUBAIR said:


> Azad Kashmir, Gilgit, Baltistan is our.....n peace is there
> 
> But Jammu n Kashmir is not urs....
> U cant go there.......if u will try to go bullits and stones will welcome u from the people of Kashmir...
> 
> Look at closely, Jammu n Kashmir is the part of Pakistan by all means ......we already have Azad Kashmir, Gilgit , Baltistan, Karakoram Range ..etc
> 
> 
> Inshallah we wil get back our remaining land (J&K)



Yeah.. Yeah.. Yeah.. Whatever floats your boat

You guys have been trying for last 63 years.. Our successful demonstration on how this is done in 1971 also didnt help. but good. keep trying...we dont even have to hit back.. You are doing it to yourself. Karan praaji's Monkey trap article sums it all.


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## MZUBAIR

Headline from Todays Paper

They dont need money, they dont need jobs, they dont need any thing except *AZADI* (freedom)


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## indushek

somebozo said:


> Wake up from your wet dream, google isnt that difficult to use.
> 
> Turkey, Saudi Arabia, China and UN have offical support for Pakistani stand on Kashmir.



If u are talking about friends of Pakistan then they would agree in words with you, but is there anybody out there to do something about it?? i mean anything not just militarily but diplomatically??


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

MZUBAIR said:


> Kashmiri college girls confront Indian police who charged at them with batons during a protest over the alleged rape and murder of two Muslim women in Srinagar. Residents say the two women, aged 17 and 22, were abducted, raped and killed by security forces May 29 in Shopian town, south of Srinagar, after their bodies were found in a stream.
> 
> Shame on Indian troops....



It is a fact that the light skin, attractive female Kashmiri is kidnapped, raped and executed routinely by these black foreign animals. Rape is such a huge figure in Indian Raped Kashmir that it leaves any decent person stunned and in awe of Indian brutality. This is why the world claims no side when their soldiers get shot at in open in Jammu & Kashmir. Pakistan political and military establishment need to grow a pair and realize this. Just look at that fat gutted pig in the pic above to understand where I am coming from. The sooner we realize the rape of our sisters and understand that those African looking thugs are foreign occupiers brutalizing innocents in disputed territory, the sooner Kashmir problem might be solved. All we are busy doing is pandering to what the Indians want to hear and not making a definitive stand on the issue politically or militarily. Hiring some C-grade Jamati soldier is not enough for this issue.


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## indushek

Kashmir is a part of India, i should not say this but seeing the excitement of many i have to say that if push comes to the shove India will take any possible and i mean anyyyyyyyyyy possible step to secure it. There is nothing anybody can do it. And Linkinpark has already provided the detailed analysis.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

MZUBAIR said:


> Look how much ur being hate in the Kashmir
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even childrens are burning 3 color flag



*That again shows the freedom of expression, they enjoy in India...I doubt it... you can burn a Pakistani flag in Pakistan.*


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## foxbat

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> thanks for your wisdom
> 
> no it doesnt...the poor economy is a global phenomenon --we werent exceptions. Though in our case, our decision to join the war on terrorism has had some blowback effects. We are situated in a tough geographical position and that puts us at peril for externalities of all kinds (not limited to the fact that we have natural disasters, and millions of refugees which help stagnate growth). Many other factors; ''extremism'' (in the Pakistani street) is not one of them though. From my view, people were more sympathetic to groups like taleban in 2003-2007 period than they are now. We are talking about now, and I see huge paradigm shift amongst even conservatives.
> 
> your mention of ''extremism'' has no merit because even in the more conservative areas such as in KP, a secular pro-democracy political party (as opposed to a religious party like MMA) was elected in 2008. That automatically negates your statement.
> 
> i'm not denying existance of intolerance and [religious motivated]extremism in Pakistan, but it exists in other countries as well (yours is no exception).
> 
> the issue of Kashmir is not a religious one; it's an *existential* one. It just so happens that Kashmir is a muslim majority region and much of the populace is against indian presence there. That is your own making, you artificially occupy land that has no affinity, loyalty or devotion to hindustan. That is clearly being exhibited via the ongoing protests (often which begin as a result of killings committed by your forces).......the future is the youth, and they are the ones being targetted
> 
> I dont enjoy seeing Kashmiri misfortune. But like i said, i love exposing hypocrites --especially those emanating from within your borders
> 
> 
> 
> 
> totally irrelevant and poorly though out post, but nice try



The economic downfall as a result of joining WOT is a convinient excuse paddled by Pakistani politicians. Also Pakistan's economy is still floundering despite rest of the world moving steadily out of the recession so the global phenomenon is yet another excuse to hide behind.


One of the 1st COIN ops started during end of 2007 and Pakistan needed the IMF bailout 11 months later. Economy of a country, that too as large as Pakistan does not become so ill in a span of 1 year, unless the issues were pre existing. And its the result of favouring extremism till 2007 (if i take your comment on face value) that is visible today in terms of well entrenched terrorist support in heartlands of Pakistan.



Kashmir has simply become an excuse for Pakistan as the terrorists like LeT etc that used to be tools for promoting this insurgency in Kashmir earlier have become too large and strong for the Pakistani state to control completely now. 

But even if I agree to what you say about getting pulled into WOT, there is a reason why Pakistan and not Iran or any other bordering states of Afghanistan got pulled into WOT with a threat of join us or face stone age. Something to ponder over. Isnt it?

And thanks for your expert comments on the level of my previous post. Neither needed nor relevant


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## Awesome

AFP: No Ramadan respite as unrest rocks Indian Kashmir

SRINAGAR, India  The fasting month of Ramadan looks set to be one of curfews, protests and hardship for Muslims in Indian Kashmir, which is experiencing a wave of popular unrest directed against Indian rule.

For two months, violent demonstrations have rocked the troubled Himalayan region. Around 50 protesters and onlookers have been killed.

Each fatality has fuelled fresh anger, in what Kashmir's Chief Minister Omar Abdullah has acknowledged is a "cycle of violence".
The constant round of protests, strikes and curfews has all but shut down daily commerce in the mainly Muslim Kashmir Valley, hurting small traders and making shopping for basic provisions a major challenge.

With Ramadan starting Thursday, residents have been advised to stockpile essentials in preparation for a difficult month.
Muslim clerics in Kashmir have in the past used the Ramadan period to preach peace and reconciliation, but with emotions running high over the dozens of deaths of protesters, that message is likely to be muted.

"We have planned protests during Ramadan against Indian rule and the innocent killings," said Syed Ali Geelani, who heads a hardline faction of the region's main separatist alliance.

*Geelani, who would like Indian Kashmir to accede to Pakistan, has also urged all Kashmiris to celebrate Pakistani independence day on August 14 and mark India's independence celebrations a day later as a "black day."*

Kashmir is divided between nuclear-armed rivals India and Pakistan, which both claim the region in full and have fought two wars over their territorial dispute.

The last time large-scale, anti-India protests hit the region, in 2008, Geelani suspended protests ahead of Ramadan and was blamed by many activists for breaking the movement's momentum.

*"The separatists have done the right thing by calling for protests during Ramadan," says Asif Ahmed, a shopkeeper.* "This tempo should continue. We should not run out of steam this time."

On Tuesday, Prime Minister *Manmohan Singh sought to calm tensions by urging Kashmiris "to give peace a chance"*. He held out the possibility of greater autonomy and vowed to address rampant unemployment.

But his overtures were *rejected by both hardline and moderate separatist groups*, who want New Delhi to repeal tough emergency laws, pull troops out of civilian areas and release political prisoners.

"This is the month of peace, but here I think we will be spending it under the shadow of curfews and strikes," said Nabla Hafiz, a housewife. "*Everyone is angry at the killings and the call for more protests will be heeded*."

"*We can't forget the killings. If we stop protesting, that will amount to forgiving Indians*," said her husband, Hafizullah Bhat.
The impasse has made daily life extremely difficult for many Kashmiris, some of whom blame both sides.

"It is going to be a gloomy Ramadan. I have no money left," said Srinagar roadside vendor Mohammed Yusuf, who has been forced to borrow money to make ends meet.

*"The shutdown calls only affect the poor like me," Yusuf said, urging separatists leaders to "rethink their strategy".

Moderate separatist leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, who is also chief cleric at Srinagar's main mosque, the Jamia Masjid, said Kashmiris would have to pull together.*

"*We must help each other. The rich should help the poor during Ramadan and those whose businesses have suffered*," Mirwaiz told AFP. "*I also appeal to Islamic countries to send aid to Kashmiris.*"

*The authorities have closed the Jamia Masjid on six consecutive Fridays, and Farooq -- who has been under house arrest for much of the past two months -- said he would defy restrictions to deliver a Ramadan sermon at the mosque this Friday.*

"*The closing of the Jamia Masjid is an infringement of the Kashmiri peoples' basic right to religious practice*," he said. "During the month of Ramadan, I will pray for an end to Indian repression and occupation."

*According to the state finance ministry, curfews and shutdowns this year have resulted in economic losses amounting to 400 million dollars.*

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## Awesome

indushek said:


> Kashmir is a part of India, i should not say this but seeing the excitement of many i have to say that if push comes to the shove India will take any possible and i mean anyyyyyyyyyy possible step to secure it. There is nothing anybody can do it. And Linkinpark has already provided the detailed analysis.


India can ill-afford to resort to genocide this time. The protests have already hit New Delhi, whatever India can do, the Kashmiris can top that!


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## jeypore

MZUBAIR said:


>



You know what is interesting about this picture, out of the four soldiers displayed, we know one is sikh. What is the possibility of the remaining three soldiers as being a Muslim faith..... That is India which Pakistanies cannot anwser!!!! They assume all Soldiers of India being Hindu!!!!! I personally think the guy on the right is Muslim because he is light skinned!!!!


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Asim Aquil said:


> India can ill-afford to resort to genocide this time. The protests have already hit New Delhi, whatever India can do, the Kashmiris can top that!


*
I think you are mistaking India with Pakistan ..we do not commit genocide on own own ppl.*


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## ARCHON

The people of Kashmir will have to face the reality of the "azadi" bubble. What they need is economic progress not "azadi". How about abolishing the Article 370 and inviting businesses to improve economics in Kashmir. Its the only way out. If the stomachs are full, no one will protest violently, as they will have something to lose. 
We dont need to crush the dissent by force when we can buy it and silence it forever.


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## Dr sim

the only thing that Kashmiris have achieved by doing this for the last 20 years is stand in their own path of development. Same thing happened to Punjab in 80s when Punjab was developing at an extraordinary pace and that idiotic freedom movement started in Punjab. Sikhs also did the same things like burning the flag of India , taking up arms,protesting everyday in big cities etc. They continued to do so for 10 yrs and what did they achieve in the end -NO Fuc**** thing. Except that the development of Punjab was completely stalled and It has still not completely recovered from that setback
Two thing that Kashmir has to understand very clearly is-
1. If a state like India does not want to leave Kashmir , there is no way that Kashmiris can overcome the Indian Security officials. Their best possibility is a diplomatic solution.
2.Sooner or later kashmiris will realize is that their future lies with India coz India can provide the youth with good education and Jobs.(one of my ex-chemistry professor was a kashmiri and he was grateful for the education he had gotten at IITs which opened a door of endless possibilities for him. he told us he could easily have been one of these in stone pelting mobs but he choose not to and it changed his entire life.

And if Pakistan is really concerned about the development of Kashmir then it should pump money into the development of Kashmir and not to back some extremists who have no future.


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## indushek

Asim Aquil said:


> India can ill-afford to resort to genocide this time. The protests have already hit New Delhi, whatever India can do, the Kashmiris can top that!



Tried and failed miserably many a time against us.


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## indushek

Well if the kashmiris want to continue this another generation is going down the path of destruction. Many may call it what they want but kashmir hamaara hai and rahega for eternity.

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## EjazR

The emotions are raw and a healing touch is needed and most of all empathy. No country in the world can or will show tangible concern to the valley Kashmiris except their own countrymen. Right now they need empathy, NGOs, civil society, student unions hell even Bollywood and cricket stars should go to Leh and Srinagar to empathasize with the plight of the Kashmiris and the flood victims. 
And govt. should realize the priority should first be justice, economic and political packages are all later. 


There is no doubt that the current situation should have been avoided, but lets go back in time just two years and see what BBC was reporting. So if there is sincirety then there is no reason why we can't turn the clock on the current unfortunate situation.



*BBC NEWS | South Asia | Changing priorities*

At a hip cafeteria in central Srinagar groups of young men and women sit around sipping cappuccinos and cafe lattes.

Background music is the Bee Gees and Bryan Adams, the dress code is jeans and T-shirts for men and traditional but elegant salwar kameez for women. There are very few headscarves.

It's a scene which would have been unthinkable in Indian-administered Kashmir a few years ago.

For almost two decades, the region has been in the grip of a violent insurgency by militants opposed to Indian rule and chants of "azaadi", or freedom, were the first words one heard on arrival.

Today, the word "azaadi" is still part of some people's lexicon, but with many young Kashmiris it comes out only after some probing.

*'Last on the list'*

"In our college, the most discussed issue is personal life. Students talk about their boyfriends and girlfriends, their love trouble," says Ibrahim Wani, a biochemistry student at Sri Pratap College.

"The number two topic of discussion is education, career, employment opportunities. Then we share our concern for the environment. The fight for Kashmir's freedom or where the separatist movement is headed is last on the list," he says.

A stroll through Srinagar University's walkways, shaded by centuries-old chinar (plane) trees, shows the shift in the priorities of the young in Kashmir.

The clamour here is for well-paying jobs, better infrastructure, women's rights and peace.

"India is doing very well economically. In the past few years, the country has progressed well. Since we are part of India, we too have a bright future," says commerce student Mudassar Hussain, who is 21.

A job fair was held on the campus recently and Hussain was among the 400 students who were offered places by various firms.

"The situation is much better in Kashmir now. The killings and blasts which characterised the 1990s and the first few years of this decade have reduced considerably," says Salfia, 22, who is studying to become a lawyer.

"In the far-flung rural areas, there are still large numbers of troops and the situation is sometimes grim, but in Srinagar we feel happy now," she says.

"We are fed up of the India-Pakistan stories. The youth is not interested in the movement any more."

*'Sensible'*

Hussain says the days when young people answered the call to arms are over.

"People are more sensible now. Today no one can drag us away and convince us to be a militant. We have to think for ourselves, not follow [separatist leader Syed Ali Shah] Geelani or some other leader."

Ibrahim, Hussain and Salfia all belong to that generation which was just taking baby steps when militancy blew up in Kashmir. Violence, strikes and protests have been part of their growing daily life.

But today when Kashmir is enjoying relative calm, the young think they can hope for a better future.

"We're not interested in going back down that route [of militancy] again. We need to move ahead, we want a normal life. We want peace," says Saima Farhad, an assistant professor at Kashmir University.

"When we go out of Kashmir, to other parts of India and to other countries, we wonder what we have done with ourselves? We realise we're destroying ourselves," she says.

Five years ago, after the state assembly elections, the regional People's Democratic Party (PDP) and the Congress party formed a coalition government. Since then, the situation in the troubled valley has been gradually, but steadily, improving.
*
Troops are still present in large numbers, but less visible.

And the withdrawal of despised counter-insurgency personnel has definitely helped ease the situation.*

Also, with the Taleban (who provided support to the separatist movement) under pressure in Pakistan and Afghanistan and improved relations between India and Pakistan, there has been a dramatic improvement in the security situation.

*'Superficial'*

"In the first five months of 2007, there were 27 incidents of violence in which several people were killed. This year, in the same period, there have been only three incidents and none were major," says inspector general of Kashmir police, SM Sahai.

Today, the streets of Srinagar are buzzing - shops are open until late at night, tourists who shunned the picturesque valley for many years are now back in their hundreds of thousands, and morale is high.

But, says senior separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani the changes are "superficial".

"If all is well here, then how come we still have the Disturbed Areas' Act in place? Why does the army still enjoy special powers? The army says there are only 2,000 militants left, then why do they need 800,000 soldiers to fight them?"

*He admits that a large number of youth have moved away from the separatist movement.*

*"Our youth are being led astray by India, our students are being taken out of Kashmir on education tours and they are being mislead. We are being subjected to cultural aggression."*

But, Mr Geelani says he is confident that the movement for Kashmir's independence will survive.

"People's priorities may change from time to time, but there's no change in our basic stand which is the fight for freedom," he says.

*Fragile peace*

Another separatist leader, Shabir Shah, says the present situation can perhaps best be described as a lull before the storm.

"To say that militancy and the Kashmiri's desire for independence is over is a mistake," he says.

"If the government of India makes one mistake, the people of India will have to pay for it."

Current events may support his view.

In recent days, Kashmir has erupted again with angry protests against plans to build facilities for Hindu pilgrims in the mainly Muslim state.

This, say some, shows how fragile the peace is. It needs just a spark to set the place on fire again.

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## fawwaxs

*No Ramazan respite as unrest plagues Kashmir *






SRINAGAR: The fasting month of Ramazan looks set to be one of curfews, protests and hardship for Muslims in Indian-administered Kashmir, which is experiencing a wave of popular unrest directed against Indian rule.


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## HariSeldon

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *Kashmir youths chucking careers to pelt stones​*Himanshi Dhawan, TNN, Aug 12, 2010, 12.48am IST
> *62 years of occupation*, billions in subsidies, atrocities, torture, murder, rapes - and this is where the 'new' Kashmiri generation, that was supposed to have missed all that and see 'Shining India', is at.
> 
> Generally one would say to Indians in Urdu, 'ab sharam say doob maro', but the typical Indian response on this forum and elsewhere indicates a complete lack of 'sharam'.



hmmm...selective memory.....During these 62 years only they helped IN to hand back your azz...

From day 1, you interfering with their neighbours, if you have not interfered in 47-48, they might be independent today. 
But I guess, when we look at PK today, its payback time.

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## HariSeldon

EjazR said:


> The emotions are raw and a healing touch is needed and most of all empathy. No country in the world can or will show tangible concern to the valley Kashmiris except their own countrymen. Right now they need empathy, NGOs, civil society, student unions hell even Bollywood and cricket stars should go to Leh and Srinagar to empathasize with the plight of the Kashmiris and the flood victims.
> And govt. should realize the priority should first be justice, economic and political packages are all later.
> 
> 
> There is no doubt that the current situation should have been avoided, but lets go back in time just two years and see what BBC was reporting. So if there is sincirety then there is no reason why we can't turn the clock on the current unfortunate situation.
> 
> 
> 
> *BBC NEWS | South Asia | Changing priorities*



Well I guess thats what Army Chief said in recent i/w. Army has delivered what it was supposed to do. It was political\social leadership that has failed the JK ppl.


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## HariSeldon

MZUBAIR said:


> *Innocent Kashmirie needs guns & weapons to crush these terrorists troops*



hmmm.....You seem to have waken from cold. Between 93-99 there was enough guns provided by there moral supporters. It did zilch. Try again if you want. Result will be same.

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## civfanatic

DGMO said:


> Brother, if India entered into dialogue with Mirwaiz and co, and firm guarantees were made from the Indian side on autonomy. Total and absolute, with a drawdown of military forces, repeal of things like AFSPA, the Seperatists were invited to be part of the state Govt and even accepted, how would you feel?


No guarentee was made of autonomy infact it wasnot even part of indian PMs speech. What was offered was autonomy within indian constitution subject to political consensus in India .There was 
No talk of revoking AFSPA , No withdrawal of Armed forces .The least Indian PM could have done and that have might have struck cord here in valley was release of thousands of Political prisoners languishing in Jails across India some of them less than 16 years old . In my locality only some more than dozen guys have been booked under AFSPA in past two months of protests .


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

civfanatic said:


> No guarentee was made of autonomy infact it wasnot even part of indian PMs speech. What was offered was autonomy within indian constitution subject to political consensus in India .There was
> No talk of revoking AFSPA , No withdrawal of Armed forces .The least Indian PM could have done and that have might have struck cord here in valley was release of thousands of Political prisoners languishing in Jails across India some of them less than 16 years old . In my locality only some more than dozen guys have been booked under AFSPA in past two months of protests .



*Obviously even if Autonomy under Indian Constitution is provided..Armed Forces will withdraw from the Civilian areas.... but will man the borders.. and all the political prisoners will freed.. now the ball is in your court either be with us and prosper or keep fighting us and remain miserable. 
*


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## KS

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Right, yet another morally bankrupt Indian - 'India will kill you, rape your women, occupy your lands and subjugate you, but India will not allow you to exercise the right to self determination that was promised you by the Governor General of India on Accession, and promised to you and again accepted by India in the United Nations Security Council Resolutions - all in the name of 'nationalism'.
> 
> In terms of a people with a mindset of hatred, bigotry and support for State Sponsored Terrorism and oppression of the rights of millions, Indians like you have no equal.



morally bankrupt..?? fine...i accept that..

With all due respect.since ur speaking abt morals...where did the morals go and hide wen Chinese massacred Tibetans and Uighurs...and ur own army does regularly in Balochistan..?

Yes I can hear u furiously typing the words "disputed territory" ..*but morals dont require a rubber stamp saying "disputed' from UN*...they need only a consciense.

So please stop this "moral advise" to us..look inside ur own home and apply ur morals first there and then come to us.


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## KS

somebozo said:


> Wake up from your wet dream, google isnt that difficult to use.
> 
> Turkey, Saudi Arabia, China and UN have offical support for Pakistani stand on Kashmir.



Oh sir....please come out of ur dream and show me the links where Turkey or KSA or even China have condemned India for the ongoing violence.

Wake up...The world doesnt utter the K-word anymore.

*All they want is the D-word (dollars) from India.*


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## amit30

saad445566 said:


> *Azad karo Kashmir ko!*



bas 200-400 sal bad .. thoda wait karo


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## KS

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> It is a fact that the light skin, attractive female Kashmiri is kidnapped, raped and executed routinely by these *black foreign animals*. Rape is such a huge figure in Indian Raped Kashmir that it leaves any decent person stunned and in awe of Indian brutality. This is why the world claims no side when their soldiers get shot at in open in Jammu & Kashmir. Pakistan political and military establishment need to grow a pair and realize this. Just look at that fat gutted pig in the pic above to understand where I am coming from. The sooner we realize the rape of our sisters and understand that those *African looking thugs* are foreign occupiers brutalizing innocents in disputed territory, the sooner Kashmir problem might be solved. All we are busy doing is pandering to what the Indians want to hear and not making a definitive stand on the issue politically or militarily. Hiring some C-grade Jamati soldier is not enough for this issue.



Why dont u do something instead whining on an online forum ..? 

Oh yeah i got it...u cant do anything other than whining.

And mind ur language ..I can post plenty of pictures of Pakistanis looking the same as the bolded parts above.

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## KS

I too support the Kashmiri's demand on this one..

Why should an international that too a largely impotent organisation be allowed to come inbetween the internal affairs of India.

Withdraw the helmets ASAP.


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## KS

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The Kashmiri and Palestinian causes are the only ones in which the demands of the parties opposed to the occupying force have international legitimacy through UNSC resolutions.



Sir why should the right of the local population for self-determination be decided on the whim and fancy of the UN..?

Are the other people any less than the others just because the UN didn give legitimacy to them..? Is this some kind of American visa which is granted or rejected according to one's convinience.

Morals dont require UN stamps..If u support one group's right to self determination support all others...


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *India asked to stop using UN helmets in IHK​*
> SRINAGAR: The UN has asked Indian forces cracking down on protests in violence-plagued Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) to stop wearing the distinctive powder-blue helmets of the UN peacekeeping force, a UN official said on Wednesday.
> 
> About 300 members of the paramilitary Rapid Action Force have been deployed in IHK since last week to help quell nearly two months of civil unrest that has reportedly killed more than 50 protesters and bystanders. Dozens of members of the force, armed with automatic rifles and dressed in full riot gear, have used UN-marked blue helmets and shields as they *faced off against the protesters in the streets of Srinagar, the region&#8217;s main city. While the bulk of their duties consists of marching down streets in a show of strength, they have also taken part in baton charges and fired tear gas into the crowds.
> *
> Their use of UN equipment has perplexed many Kashmiris, who wondered why UN troops had taken a side in the conflict and were assisting Indian forces. &#8220;We&#8217;ve already informed the authorities about this problem,&#8221; said an officer at the UN Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorised to talk to the media. &#8220;The authorities have promised to solve this situation,&#8221; he said. ap
> 
> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
> 
> ===========
> 
> *How will this get pinned on the 'Pakistan origin' UN spokesperson Haq I wonder* ...



*On the contrary this shows, the maximum amount of criticism UN is willing to do..looks like India and the rest of the world is on the same page.
*


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## Pride

As expected.. Mirwaiz's response is on the line after all he has taken proper cross-border training.. How can we expect him not to follow his bosses?

Regarding PDP's Mehbooba Mufti's comments.. I remember she is the same for which so much of ransom given in early 90s to save her from terrorist. Talking against same governement.. huh hypocrite.

@topic: autonomy is nothing new to J&K it was there till 1960 when this has been revoked. Even if this one is given and accepted nothing is going to be changed. PM already promised few NE states to give autonomy. These autonomus regions would be same as China's TAR and XAR this is also cleared.
This was simply a diplomatic move and best for valley but f they are not agreeing then let it be..


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## RobbieS

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Kashmir will be liberated. This cannot go on forever.



And India will keep resisting forever.

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## amit30

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *Kashmir separatists reject Singhs autonomy offer​*
> Wednesday, 11 Aug, 2010
> 
> _Our struggle is not for restoration of autonomy. It is to seek our right to self-determination, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq said. _
> 
> SRINAGAR: Separatist leaders in Indian-administered Kashmir dismissed Wednesday overtures from Prime Minister Manmohan Singh about political autonomy in the region following months of anti-India unrest.
> 
> Appealing to Kashmiri Muslims to give peace a chance, Singh had said Tuesday that his government would consider any consensus proposal for autonomy as long as it remained within the ambit of the constitution.
> 
> He also announced the creation of a panel of experts that would draw up a jobs plan for Indian-administered Kashmir where rampant unemployment  especially among young people  has fuelled resentment against Indian rule.
> 
> But senior Kashmir separatists rejected Singh's initiative.
> 
> Our fight is for independence, not autonomy, Javed Mir, a former militant commander turned separatist politician, told AFP.
> 
> We will continue our fight for our goal through peaceful protests, said Mir, who had been among the first Kashmiris to take up arms in 1989 when frustration against Indian rule boiled over into a full-blown insurgency.
> 
> Under the terms of its accession to India in 1947 after independence from Britain and the sub-continent's division  Kashmir was granted a relatively high degree of autonomy, excluding areas like defence and foreign affairs.
> 
> But those powers have been eroded over the years, and renewed promises of greater autonomy gain little traction in separatist circles.
> 
> Our struggle is not for restoration of autonomy. It is to seek our right to self-determination, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, an influential moderate separatist, told AFP.
> 
> We should be allowed to decide whether we want to remain with India, accede to Pakistan or carve out an independent state, he said.
> 
> Kashmir is divided between India and Pakistan, which both claim the region in full and have fought two wars over their territorial dispute.
> 
> The Kashmir legislative assembly in 2000 passed a resolution favouring full restoration of the state's autonomy, but it was rejected by the then Hindu-nationalist government in New Delhi.
> 
> Autonomy is the main demand of the ruling National Conference, the state's biggest pro-India political party.
> 
> DAWN.COM | World | Kashmir separatists reject Singh?s autonomy offer



our government not run by those terrorist separatists 
government is able to do what they want they dnt need any ones advive btw autonomy not gonna givin to J&K any how


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## Rajput Warrior

@robbie And so will Pakistan and Kashmiris!


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## indushek

Karthic Sri said:


> Why dont u do something instead whining on an online forum ..?
> 
> Oh yeah i got it...u cant do anything other than whining.
> 
> And mind ur language ..I can post plenty of pictures of Pakistanis looking the same as the bolded parts above.



Come on bro its their helplessness which makes them to spell out all these righteous anger statements. Let them atleast enjoy this.


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## Agnostic_Indian

I think autonomy is a fair deal. But no way we are going to re draw the physical boundary of kashmir. Pakistan is intrusted in water resource nothig else.
if not they would have supported the third option of independent kashmir in the UN.


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## KS

*Three militants killed in encounter in north Kashmir*

Three militants were killed in an encounter with security forces in Bandipora district of north Kashmir this morning.

The gunbattle broke out in the forest area of Bandipora, 75 kms from Srinagar, when the militants opened fire on a search party of the security forces, a defence spokesman said.

He said three militants, who are yet to be identified, were killed in the gunbattle that was still going on when reports last came in. 

Link

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The encounter is still going on..so expect some more good news from our side...


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## Agnostic_Indian

Rajput Warrior said:


> @robbie And so will Pakistan and Kashmiris!



majority kashmiris are with us so we will settle it peacefuly with kashmiris.And We succesfuly defended all the moves Of pakistan both militarily, through cross border terrorists and deploaticaly. So lets continue this for ever if you insist.


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## Awesome

Fundamentally what the UN resolutions say is "Let the people decide on their own through a vote".

Only India rejects that, Pakistan and the Kashmiris are in agreement with it.


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## mohan goyal

Asim Aquil said:


> Fundamentally what the UN resolutions say is "Let the people decide on their own through a vote".
> 
> Only India rejects that, Pakistan and the Kashmiris are in agreement with it.


i request my fellow indians to post the UN resolution to the gentleman


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## RobbieS

Asim Aquil said:


> Fundamentally what the UN resolutions say is "Let the people decide on their own through a vote".
> 
> *Only India rejects that, Pakistan and the Kashmiris are in agreement with it*.



Oh really! How goody two shoes are we? Then why doesn't Pakistan withdraw its forces to pre-48 lines? Why doesnt it unilaterally vacate Azad Kashmir (sic) and Gilgit-Baltistan?

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## EjazR

The violent protests involving stone pelting and arson are the problem here. Peaceful protests have taken in many other places around Kashmir valley and Jammu even without loss of life. Out of the 50+ dead, atleast 5 were killed when protestors set fire to a police station that had explosives inside and it exploded. Another 50 year old woman died when a stone hit her directly in the chest even though she was not part of any protest. These type of protests can't be allowed. 
But on the other hand peaceful protests should be allowed.

Here is an editorial from a leading English daily in Kashmir highlighting the contradictions between the aims and practice of the sepratists.

*Kashmir Images :: Details*
Any revolutionary force has two targets, moral as well as material. And as much as some would like to disagree, Kashmir is no exception to this general rule. While the structural violence woven into the political systems here has pushed the young protagonists to the top of the &#8216;anger mountain&#8217; to shout &#8216;burn the system down&#8217;; those who, deliberately or by default, facilitated the adrenaline rush in their bloodstreams, seem plagued by a terrible sense of disorientation. They are hard at understanding

and articulating how to go about from here. All they are doing now is going with the wave and trying to somehow maintain some relevance for themselves and their politics. There are some who have silenced themselves after recoiling into their caves; others are firing paper missiles now and then to signal they are alive; and still others have taken recourse to feigning illness &#8211; they publicize doctors&#8217; prescriptions to bail themselves out! (My comment: He referring to Yasim Malik and Geelani)This maze of contradictions emanating from the people at the so-called apex is so disconcerting that it is the cause and consequence of popular disillusionment and negativism with political leaders of both mainstream and separatist camps. 
The other day members of Kashmir&#8217;s Bar Association were mad with rage because the High Court judge, who was scheduled to hear the habeas corpus petition of Bar president and general secretary, didn&#8217;t make it to the court. Reaching the court at 10am sharp, the Bar members including former president Zafar Shah, Zafar Qureshi, vice-president Ajaz Bedar and scores of others waited for the entire day for the said judge, but to their utmost dismay none of the justices of the High Court were visible. Exasperated over the &#8220;undesired absence&#8221; of the justices, the Bar &#8216;leaders&#8217; later met the Chief Justice Aftab Ahmed Saikia, and expressed their disappointment at the absence of the appellate court judges. They told the Chief Justice that not only the cases of Bar president and general secretary were being affected but hundreds of other detainees languishing in jails under PSA were also suffering because of the justices&#8217; absence. So true; but what about the thousands of other people seeking justice but whose cases are pending trail (adjudication) because the Bar Association has asked all lawyers not to attend courts until its leaders are freed? If Bar can&#8217;t bear delay of even a single day in the hearing of cases involving its president and general secretary, how could it justify its role in subverting thousands of other cases involving ordinary mortals? How can someone who seeks justice for itself justify its blocking of the same justice to others? Why this contradiction? 
Indeed it is these contradictions and innate hypocrisies that are the cause of the popular negativism here. People have seen participatory democracy turn into its antithesis. The political panaceas of the past like the formation of the separatist alliance in All Parties Hurriyat Conference have become same old stuff under a different name. Given their anger, alienation and frustration, the Kashmir&#8217;s young, which are now the vanguard, have no illusions about the system, but given their age they have plenty of illusions about the way to change it. They are at cross-roads &#8211; it&#8217;s what they do and will do that will give meaning to their lives and to their people and the &#8216;nation&#8217;. But unfortunately, the search for &#8216;freedom&#8217; does not seem to have any road or destination. It is here that a politically mature and tactically sound leadership could make the difference. But alas that too is missing. Wearing popular sufferings as a badge of achievement, those in the leadership roles here have become habitual of deceit. Instead of playing the game as it should be, they take pride in shouting &#8216;kill the umpire&#8217;. Those who are supposed to pass on the torch of experience and insights to the new generation are just not there even though they are physically very much in the think of things. So as the young look up at the society and the leaders around them, it is all, in their words &#8220;corrupt, materialistic, decadent, intellectually bankrupt, bourgeois in its values&#8230;&#8221; Is it any wonder that the entire leadership stands rejected in toto? Can anyone actually dare claim to be in command of the people and the situation right now?

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## Awesome

We support Independence for Kashmir, only India is against it.


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## HitNRun

First of all freedom fighters are not terrorists by any chance


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## HitNRun

Today atleast 5 innocent people of kashmir who killed by indian army..... kashmir is burning...... freedom


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## EjazR

*Kashmir Valley calm, curfew lifted as Ramzan begins*

Srinagar: After days of unrest and curfew, the situation in the Kashmir Valley was on Thursday calm with curfew being lifted from all the regions and a break in strikes called by separatists.

"The situation is peaceful throughout the Valley and curfew has been lifted from all parts," Inspector General Police (Kashmir Range) Farooq Ahmad said. 

With the lifting of curfew coinciding with a separatists' announcement not to call for strike, shoppers flocked the markets and business establishments reopened in Srinagar city and other parts of the Valley.

Traffic snarls were seen at many places as people came out to stock supplies particularly in view of the holy month of Ramzan which commenced from Thursday. 

Schools, colleges, banks and private offices reopened and public transport plied on the streets.

On August 10, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh had sought to calm tensions in the Valley by urging Kashmiris "to give peace a chance". He held out the possibility of greater autonomy and vowed to address rampant unemployment.

The Valley was rocked by violence following the death of a teenager on June 11 after allegedly being hit by a teargas shell at Gani stadium near Rajouri Kadal. After that street protests continued in the Valley which claimed 52 lives.

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## gurjot

Asim Aquil said:


> We support Independence for Kashmir, only India is against it.



who is with pakistan????


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## HitNRun

gurjot said:


> who is with pakistan????



every Kashmiri is with Pakistan..... 


Kashmir is a part of Pakistan


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## HitNRun

Interview Transcript  Syed Ali Shah Geelani

Fortress: Assalamo alaikum

Geelani Sb: Wa alaikum Salaam wa rahmatullah

Fortress: Geelani sb, I am Tabish Qayyum from Fortress Magazine; we wanted to ask a few questions.

Geelani Sb: Tabish Qayyum  from which place?

Fortress: I am correspondent of Fortress Magazine, published monthly, from Karachi.

Geelani Sb: Karachi is it!! My heart bleeds for Karachi! How much pain and agony I am passing thorough! For avenging death of one person eighty human lives have been taken! Is this not reversion to the same pre Islamic jahiliyya?

Fortress: No doubt, you are hundred percent right

Geelani Sb: Is history not repeating itself? The age of pre Islamic ignorance has come again in a country that was founded in the name of Islam!

Geelani sb burst into tears 

Fortress: Geelani sb, we are witnessing a rebirth of the freedom struggle in Occupied Kashmir like of which was seen in 1989. The vigor and towards the movement amongst the youth and women is astonishing. With the rise in death toll the intensity of protests is also soaring. What has happened so special this time that after period of 20 years, Kashmiri youth, women and children have taken to the streets with such courage and passion.

Geelani Sb: That is the bounty of Allah on us. Allah has given us the strength to work towards this cause. Here in Srinagar we made contacts with the youth, we delivered speeches in mosques, and we tried to explain to the masses the repercussions of Indian slavery. We have introduced the slogan of Freedom for the sake of Islam in the masses. May Allah give us the strength to live up to our slogan grants us freedom, and we pray that He gives us the strength to establish the just and equitable system of Islam. Pakistan is identified in the world by means of its affiliation with Islam. And today it is facing destruction. It is punishment for not fulfilling the same obligation. They failed to establish the just Islamic order in Pakistan. They emulated the West and became their slaves; they whole heartedly embraced secularism and discarded Islam and eventually threw it out the window, hence this pre Islamic age of ignorance has to come haunt them again. Over here Alhamdolillah, it is only due to the grace of Allah that we have based our movement on Islam. We have rejected secular politics and have channelized our freedom struggle for the establishment of just Islamic order. This has appealed to the hearts and minds of our youth. That is why you see them on streets ready to embrace martyrdom. Alhamdolillah

Fortress: Recently, Chief Minister Umar Abdullah has labeled the current movement in Kashmir as being a leaderless movement, at this point in time what is the state of unity and level of involvement of the Hurriat Conference and the Kashmiri leadership in this movement.

Geelani Sb: It is absolute rubbish and propaganda used by the agents of the Indian government. It is not a leaderless movement; it is being lead by the APHC which in turn is under my leadership. The movement that you are witnessing right now was initiated in 2009 at the district level. The aim was to end the Indian occupation and we gave the slogan to withdrawal of troops from Kashmir. It was launched by our party, Tehreek e Hurriat, and our first political gathering was held in Shopian. At district level programs we used to come forth with two things, first we had to organize strikes at the district level and second organize big public gatherings and Alhamdolillah in we did all of this in nine districts in year 2009, and by the start of year 2010, only two districts we left. So at the start of 2010, we covered those two districts as well. This created awareness amongst the masses; we told the people that how under Indian military occupation nothing that belonged to us was secure. Be it our land, our forests, our culture, our civilization, our wealth, our life, our sanctity, our honor, every single thing of ours is threatened with the presence of Indian forces. So we must rise above all these subsidies and favors that are being offered to us. We must protect our civilization, our culture and the future of our new generation. So we must come forth with only one demand that there should be an end to Indian occupation of J&K.

Fortress: It has been alleged by India, that the idea, inception and command and control of this movement lay across the border i.e. Pakistan. What is the reality? They allege that Jihadi organizations are playing crucial role in orchestrating these protests.

Geelani Sb: Frankly speaking with no reservation, we had always wished that you cover our movement in its true perspective and present to the world accordingly, and that would have been a great favor upon us. Pakistan is engulfed in severe problems; we are very disturbed and sensitive to it. Millions of people have been affected with these floods and still the situation is out of control. Earlier the occurrence of tragic air plane crash and then above all killings in Karachi, we are conscious to all of this. In spite of this we ask you to pay head to the situation of Kashmir and ask your print and electronic media to dedicate resources to support the cause of the oppressed people of Kashmir. As for the allegations of involvement of Pakistan in this movement or any Jihadi organizations then these are all baseless, there is no gun or bullet or grenade in this movement. At most when the Indian forces beat the protesters on the street and fire shells at them, they respond with throwing stones at them. That is it. These protests are entirely peaceful and highly dignified. We have strike six days a week but we left Sunday open for the sake of public. I say with full confidence that there is not a single person who would say that he has been strained or he cant buy this or that. We have given directives for opening Bait ul Maal in different areas. Alhamdolillah there are scores of Bait ul Maal. We bring relief goods, vegetables, food items and we distribute them in areas where they are required. Langaars have been setup in hospitals for the patients and their attendants. Alhamdolillah nobody starves over here and no patient is left out without medicine. People have great regard for their traditional values, no body needs to beg. We fully protect the non Muslim community present over here; they are living here without any fear. Representatives of pundits and Sikh community came to me yesterday, we told them that they are very dear to us; they are like organs of our body. We will protect them at all cost. Their wealth, honor, life, places of worship are secure. We have a very pleasant atmosphere over here, and we want to create an atmosphere of mercy, as laid down in Islam. And Allah is helping us.

Fortress: You have recently rejected talk offers, are the people of Kashmir with you on this?

Geelani Sb: Absolutely! Especially the youth and the educated segment of the society, after Allah SWT, we have full faith in their support.

Fortress: What recommendation would you like to give to Pakistan, how should it respond to this situation?

Geelani Sb: Pakistan should effectively employ all the diplomatic missions available at its disposal. It should avoid US pressure to engage in dialogue with India. The issue of Kashmir is not a border dispute between India and Pakistan, that they could bilaterally address it. It is an issue of right of self determination of a nation of 1 Curore 30 Lakhs. And on this basis, Pakistan and other countries should help us. Those who say that we want to help people of Kashmir and then ask Pakistan and India to enter into dialogue; I say that we will get nothing out of this. We got nothing out of it in the past 62 years and we would get nothing out of in the future. Because it is not a mere border dispute, if somebody wants to help then he should do so wholeheartedly by asking for right of self determination for the people of J&K as proscribed in the UN resolutions. India should fulfill the promises it made with regards to it. Yesterday Chadam Baram said in India parliament, that India had made promises with people of Kashmir and it is time for their fulfillment. This is what we are trying to remind to you. This is exactly what people of Kashmir and the youth of Kashmir have been saying all along. Then why are they being persecuted? It shows that there is inconsistency in your own statements. You say one thing in the parliament and on other hand you do the opposite and resort to use brute force in Kashmir. All the diplomatic missions should be engaged, thats the first step. Secondly a special session of OIC should be convened and there not only should they pass a resolution, but they should also announce immediate boycott of India. India should be given ultimatum of fifteen days to take its troops out of Kashmir; otherwise OIC countries should impose economic sanctions on India. May Allah give the OIC countries courage to take this step. In fifteen days we would gain independence. And Pakistan should play a leading role in this. May this happen.

Fortress: Despite all the promises that India has made over the years, we have seen that it pays little head and has always resorted to use of brute force. For how long do you think Kashmiri youth would keep making sacrifices. Dont you think that a point would come they would think of picking up gun in their struggle for freedom?

Geelani Sb: We have had an experience of armed struggle of about twenty years. We will inshAllah continue with our peaceful struggle. And Allah will help us. Pakistans role is to highlight the issue of Kashmir through diplomatic means. It should give maximum coverage to it.

Fortress: We assure you of our full support. We pray for the Kashmiri leadership, may Allah protect you.

Geelani Sb: I would like to add one thing and that is very important. The entire nation is united. Muslims of Jammu & Kashmir have gathered under united leadership. We have a very bitter experience of this. For sake of Allah you should support this leadership avoid causing any rupture in it.

Fortress: it is a very healthy development. JazakAllah

Geelani Sb: And please convey our hearty condolences and sympathies for the flood affectees. May Allah shower his mercy on Pakistan and alleviate the problems it has been facing.


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## KS

graphican said:


> @Karthic Sri
> 
> Had you diagnozed the problem right, you must had found its treatment in 60+ years. Situation in Kashmir is only worsening is indication whatever you imagine is their problem is factually not. Why is it so hard to understand Kashmir doesn't want to be part of India. Simple.
> 
> What I see is Problem is not out there in Kashmiris, they from the day one are determined and consistent in their demand. Problem is inside, inside the heart and mind of India who is not willing to hear and see what they say. You may even Identify and Identify that well that Kashmiris are not Indians but stake of India are probably too high that India is not ready to accept that. So reality is clear, its matter of accepting it or denying it. But once you identify the real centre of problem, you will move in a direction that will bring solution. Otherwise "barking at the wrong tree" doesn't help and that should have been clear by now.




Just one line (from one of my earlier post) to sum it up all:

Whether u like it or not *A second partition based on religion is not happening in the subcontinent.*Period.

If anybody is tired of being ruled by "infidels" they can very well pack their bags and migrate to the land of the pure.

But re-drawing maps ---> NO

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## friendly_troll96

Singh is a nice guy yaar, I hope he comes up with something that Kashmiris cant nullify!


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## EjazR

*GreaterKashmir Protesters target Srinagar-Muzaffarabad bus*

One PAK resident injured
Altaf Baba
Lastupdate at : Thu, 12 Aug 2010 12:05:01 IST
Smaller Default Larger

Srinagar: The fortnightly Srinagar-Muzaffarabad bus today came under attack from angry protesters at Srinagar-Muzaffarabad Road near Pattan, damaging the vehicle and injuring one guest from Pakistan-Administered Kashmir (PAK).

According to reports, as the bus was moving with some passengers to the other side of Kashmir from Srinagar to Muzaffarbad, it came under stone pelting from protesters near Pattan-Palhalan. Several window panes of the bus were smashed. Police and paramilitary forces resorted to cane charging on the crowd and rescued the passengers, who were then shifted from the place in police vehicles to some other destination.

SSP Varmul, Mansoor Ahmed Untoo, while speaking to Greater Kashmir, confirmed that one person hailing from Pakistan-administered Kashmir (PAK) was injured during the incident. His identity could not be immediately known.

He said all the passengers have been shifted to safety.


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## IndianRobo

TOPGUN said:


> Let people live in peace and let live for GOD's sake... india seems to be follwing israel's foot steps as they do with the palestine's. Let these people decide what they want and leave them in peace otherwise sooner or later you will pay for it and then cry...



See, those who do not Like India, are not compelled to Live in India, Indian Law Permits them to move out and Seek a place which gives them eternal happiness If Not In India.... But Burning Indian flag and Other stuffs In Indian soil, Well Its against the law and He can/should face serious Punishment


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## EjazR

OK here is an editorial from a leading daily apper in Srinagar. PMs statement are being taken positively so now both stateand centre govt. should take these steps to their logical conclusions.

*Walk the talk now Lastupdate:- Thu, 12 Aug 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com*
At long last, after the loss of 51 lives, New Delhi has begun to take a more serious look at Kashmir. And for once the noises made sound refreshingly right and geared to at least touch the cord in Kashmir. We have come a long way from the apathetic description of the situation by the Home Secretary G K Pillai, who let alone evincing some regret over the deaths of teenagers even gratuitously contested the age of a nine year old victim. Now Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has set the record straight by an unequivocal expression of pain over the killings in Kashmir and Ladakh. What is more, Prime Minister has also bravely acknowledged the prevailing ground reality in Kashmir. He has granted there is genuine anger, sentiment and aspiration. He also came closest to acknowledging Kashmir as a dispute by underlining the 63 year old complex historical baggage that needs to be dealt with. Prime Minister, in no uncertain terms, stressed the need for a larger
political solution. He also talked about the dialogue with Pakistan, its challenges and achievements in the form of many Confidence Building Measures including cross-LoC trade and movement of people. However, while talking about a political solution, Prime Minister didn't go the desired distance. To a good measure, he left the talk of a future solution open-ended, stopping short of explaining its contours and giving a political roadmap. He did though mention autonomy for Kashmir within the bounds of constitution and called for evolving a broader political consensus on the issue. Prime Minister also announced setting up of an expert group under the chairmanship of noted economist Dr C Rangarajan to formulate a jobs plan for the state involving public and private sectors. The committee shall have Infosys chief N R Naryanmurthy, economist Tarun Das and Kashmiri industrialist Shakeel Qalander as its members, while one more member would be nominated by the state government. Although mention of this expert group evoked some sense of de javu, it didn't detract from the general political narrative of the speech. The speech no doubt has created a feel-good atmosphere. Prime Minister may not have broken a great new political ground, or announced any radical departure from New Delhi's stance but he has certainly made an effort to re-adjust the tone and tenor, recognize there is a serious problem and promise a political solution. The challenge, however, is a follow-up action. And this fundamentally would mean to move forward in the spirit of the speech. And of course, not to narrow down the focus once the situation returns to normal. This will once again break the faith which this speech might have gone a little way to repair. For while Prime Minister's belated speech is a good beginning, there is a long road that has to be traveled. The speech needs to be followed up with a serious dialogue, a sustained engagement that is not the traditional dialogue of the deaf. And for that to happen New Delhi needs to deal with the raw political reality in Kashmir and not take recourse to addressing the demands which are not made. This more than solving anything creates fresh problems. Issue is if New Delhi is not going to understand or acknowledge the sentiments or hard political reality in Kashmir, how are Kashmiris going to understand and appreciate New Delhi's concerns about a particular solution. Situation so far has been that while there are cries for Azadi in Valley, New Delhi interprets it as little more than an economic grievance. As a result, redressal has always been in economic terms. But this approach, as the present unrest amply underlines has gotten us nowhere. After years of engagement there is no connect at all. It will need much more beyond feel-good speeches and re-assuring words to find a way out of the dead-end New Delhi's old policies have created in Kashmir.


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## friendly_troll96

Lol a hit and run strategy is somewhat lame, why dont you just stay there and face the music?

j/k


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## HitNRun

friendly_troll96 said:


> Lol a hit and run strategy is somewhat lame, why dont you just stay there and face the music?
> 
> j/k



 dont you worry buddy i have my eyes on my all threads


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## HitNRun

?BBC Urdu? - ?????? - ??????: ????? ?????? ?? ???????







Indian Army using UN equipments in Kashmir and this is the true face of indian army in kashmir....

they want to show that they are UN peace keeping force and actually they kill innocents with this double face....

 Kashmir is Pakistan

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## EjazR

Some corrections here, there is a strong pro-independnace sentiment in the valley that does not agree with Geelani. Infact, even in the recent protests the radical elements in his own faction were quite angry with him. He was even kicked out out of Jamaat Islami for his hardline attitude. 

The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | Unheeded, hawk calls for peace


> He recalled how a recent call by Pakistan-based Hizb-ul Mujahideen leader Syed Salahuddin for restraint had been greeted with rage by youths in Sopore and Baramulla in north Kashmir. In both places, effigies of Salahuddin were publicly burnt. by boys shouting slogans to the effect that the Kashmiri people did not have to &#8220;seek directions from Pakistan&#8221; on how to conduct their freedom struggle.
> 
> Even as Geelani spoke today, Kashmir saw sporadic violence, though on a lowered scale. Thousands defied curfew in Pampore and Khrew in south Kashmir, where nine persons have died during the present unrest. Police said a vehicle of the Indian Reserve Police&#8217;s 9th battalion was damaged in Pampore and another security vehicle was set afire in the Qamarwari neighbourhood of downtown Srinagar.
> 
> In Shopian, a police spokesperson said, a mob set ablaze two buildings of the Forest Protection Force in addition to a police Gypsy.
> 
> Shortly after his appeal Geelani was face to face with an irate crowd at the cremation of Iqbal Ahmed Khan in the Chhanpora locality of Srinagar. They were visibly upset over Geelani's stand and shouted slogans like "saudebaazi nahin chalegi" (you can't indulge in political trading). Geelani's personal followers threw a ring around him and prevented an uglier scene but the separatis spearhead was disallowed his wish to lead Iqbal's final prayers.


----------



## graphican

Karthic Sri said:


> Just one line (from one of my earlier post) to sum it up all:
> 
> Whether u like it or not *A second partition based on religion is not happening in the subcontinent.*Period.
> 
> If anybody is tired of being ruled by "infidels" they can very well pack their bags and migrate to the land of the pure.
> 
> But re-drawing maps ---> NO



Karthic Sri,

Was India willing to have it partitioned on the basis of religion the first time it happened? Plus your argument is "We won't do" doesn't help in addressing the problems on ground. Kashmiris are out on rage, Moists are out with their guns drawn and your sensible argument is "Weather you like or not".. I wonder if you would do all the because Pakistan liked or not? 

Kashmirs are not asking to divide India "again". It was never a part of India and this is the basis of case put in United Nation, by India itself. Hope you would get foundations of the issue right this time.


----------



## HitNRun

EjazR said:


> Some corrections here, there is a strong pro-independnace sentiment in the valley that does not agree with Geelani. Infact, even in the recent protests the radical elements in his own faction were quite angry with him. He was even kicked out out of Jamaat Islami for his hardline attitude.
> 
> The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | Unheeded, hawk calls for peace



hmmm again jsut indian source????? watch your words this is not a way to say kicked out to any leader .........He still represents the majority in Kashmir.....


----------



## graphican

IndianRobo said:


> See, those who do not Like India, are not compelled to Live in India, Indian Law Permits them to move out and Seek a place which gives them eternal happiness If Not In India.... But Burning Indian flag and Other stuffs In Indian soil, Well Its against the law and He can/should face serious Punishment



So you are fundamentally agreeing that Kashmirs do not want to live in India. I am happy some Indian fellows are starting to realize and admit reality on ground.

And a correction, Kashmiris do not subscribe to the "law" you are referring to. That law is law of India and Kashmiris are not Indian.


----------



## EjazR

Asim Aquil said:


> We support Independence for Kashmir, only India is against it.



Maybe some Pakistanis do, but GoP offcial position is not for independnace. Infact, it was on GoP insistence that the independance option was removed from the plebescite option.


----------



## KS

Hit and Run ..u forgot to post the last part of the transcript...i ll do the favour of posting it.

*Gellani* : And fine BTW can u please ask the ISI on my behalf wat happened to the last month salary of mine.? I still not see it credited to my bank account.

*The other dude*: Sure saab...will i not do this to a fellow Pakistani..?.Please hold the line for a few minutes.

*(Goes on another line to ISI,talks and comes after 10 mins.)*

*The other dude:* Saab they r saying that ur appraisal has been done and it has been found below expectations..They want u to "do more".But keeping in mind ur age and the amount that is to be given to the stone pelters they are right away crediting 75 % of the salary into State Bank of India.

I hope the ATM is open .

*Gellani:* Oh is it...Ok I will work with renewed energy and produce good results (young martyrs) this month.

The ATM is closed..but dont worry my boys can crack it open with their stones. 

Any way nice speaking to u dude....kuda hafis.

*The other dude:* Take care saab.

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## EjazR

*Farooq hopes for normalcy in Kashmir-Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times*

BHOPAL: Union minister for New and Renewable Energy Farooq Abdullah today expressed hope that the situation in Kashmir will improve and normalcy would be restored soon in the bruised valley.

"Kashmir won't go anywhere. The situation was worse in 1989 than what it is now. But things changed and normalcy returned to the valley. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's recent peace steps will improve the situation there," the former Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister told reporters here after inaugurating a solar energy system in Van Vihar Zoo.

Asked whether a sense of anger and alienation in Kashmir triggered off violence and unrest in the valley, Abdullah said there were many reasons for it.

"There are many factors. Some agencies want to destabilise the government in Kashmir and others want to secede from India," he said.

The Valley was rocked by violence following the death of a teenager on June 11 after allegedly being hit by a teargas shell at Gani stadium near Rajouri Kadal. After that street protests continued in the Valley which claimed 52 lives.


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## IndianRobo

graphican said:


> So you are fundamentally agreeing that Kashmirs do not want to live in India. I am happy some Indian fellows are starting to realize and admit reality on ground.
> 
> And a correction, Kashmiris do not subscribe to the "law" you are referring to. That law is law of India and Kashmiris are not Indian.



Let me know where have I mentioned the word kashmir or kashmiri?? It is common to every one in India..... and Who care what you say about kashmir, we Consider it as an Integral part of India.... 

I do not expect you to have the same vision aswell


----------



## gurjot

HitNRun said:


> every Kashmiri is with Pakistan.....
> 
> 
> Kashmir is a part of Pakistan



yah i know


----------



## HitNRun

Karthic Sri said:


> Hit and Run ..u forgot to post the last part of the transcript...i ll do the favour of posting it.
> 
> *Gellani* : And fine BTW can u please ask the ISI on my behalf wat happened to the last month salary of mine.? I still not see it credited to my bank account.
> 
> *The other dude*: Sure saab...will i not do this to a fellow Pakistani..?.Please hold the line for a few minutes.
> 
> *(Goes on another line to ISI,talks and comes after 10 mins.)*
> 
> *The other dude:* Saab they r saying that ur appraisal has been done and it has been found below expectations..They want u to "do more".But keeping in mind ur age and the amount that is to be given to the stone pelters they are right away crediting 75 % of the salary into State Bank of India.
> 
> I hope the ATM is open .
> 
> *Gellani:* Oh is it...Ok I will work with renewed energy and produce good results (young martyrs) this month.
> 
> The ATM is closed..but dont worry my boys can crack it open with their stones.
> 
> Any way nice speaking to u dude....kuda hafis.
> 
> *The other dude:* Take care saab.



 

every freedom fighter is not ISI Personal when they indians learn this ...... BTW check out your pants they are on fire , well it seems to be with this post of yours 
peace


----------



## indushek

graphican said:


> So you are fundamentally agreeing that Kashmirs do not want to live in India. I am happy some Indian fellows are starting to realize and admit reality on ground.
> 
> And a correction, Kashmiris do not subscribe to the "law" you are referring to. That law is law of India and Kashmiris are not Indian.



Yeah we have realized that long ago but u see its not easy to send so many at a time. So better do it slowly.


----------



## gurjot

HitNRun said:


> every freedom fighter is not ISI Personal when they indians learn this ...... BTW check out your pants they are on fire , well it seems to be with this post of yours
> peace



we know wat's ours!!!!!!!!!!,check ur pants lol


----------



## KS

HitNRun said:


> every Kashmiri is with Pakistan.....
> 
> Kashmir is a part of Pakistan



Oh yeah and Bill Clinton has become the President of Somalia.


----------



## graphican

^^^ AFP is a lot more reliable resource of information than Indian one and specially so for the issue of Kashmir where India always try to show a "all good" picture to the world.


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## indushek

yeah a news source is reliable only when it touts your line of thought isn't it?? Whatever


----------



## Materialistic

Karthic Sri said:


> Hit and Run ..u forgot to post the last part of the transcript...i ll do the favour of posting it.
> 
> *Gellani* : And fine BTW can u please ask the ISI on my behalf wat happened to the last month salary of mine.? I still not see it credited to my bank account.
> 
> *The other dude*: Sure saab...will i not do this to a fellow Pakistani..?.Please hold the line for a few minutes.
> 
> *(Goes on another line to ISI,talks and comes after 10 mins.)*
> 
> *The other dude:* Saab they r saying that ur appraisal has been done and it has been found below expectations..They want u to "do more".But keeping in mind ur age and the amount that is to be given to the stone pelters they are right away crediting 75 &#37; of the salary into State Bank of India.
> 
> I hope the ATM is open .
> 
> *Gellani:* Oh is it...Ok I will work with renewed energy and produce good results (young martyrs) this month.
> 
> The ATM is closed..but dont worry my boys can crack it open with their stones.
> 
> Any way nice speaking to u dude....kuda hafis.
> 
> *The other dude:* Take care saab.



LOL... seems like you guys couldn't come up with something solid or counter facts (to be more precise). So you started derailing thread!! 

Good move!!

please refrain to post if you can't contribute something constructive to the topic.

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## EjazR

^^^AFP is talking in the future, my news reports posted are about today. These are being filed by local jounralists. Curfew is lifted but there were reports of stone pelters attacking the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad busservice. A passenger from Muzaffarabad gotinjured.


*Kashmir peaceful as Ramzan begins*
As Ramdan &#8211; the Islamic month of fasting &#8211; stepped in, Kashmir valley got a half-day respite from the shutdown that has paralysed life across the state. Curfew was lifted from most of the Kashmir on Thursday giving people a space to come out in large numbers to buy essentials.

With the lifting of curfew, thousands of people crowded in shops, businesses establishments, banks and other offices on Thursday after authorities lifted a curfew from almost all the towns across Kashmir. Considering the sanctity of Ramdan, the Hardline Hurriyat faction led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani has called for a half day break in shutdown to allow people to stock up food and other necessities.

Kashmir valley has been paralysed by unrest since 11 June when a teenage student was killed police. Since then, 52 people have been killed as police and paramilitary forces regularly used force to control demonstrations triggered by each civilian death.


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## graphican

EjazR said:


> Some corrections here, there is a strong pro-independnace sentiment in the valley that does not agree with Geelani. Infact, even in the recent protests the radical elements in his own faction were quite angry with him. He was even kicked out out of Jamaat Islami for his hardline attitude.
> 
> The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | Unheeded, hawk calls for peace



Indian resources over Kashmir are not the line to read. They are visibly biased and write with an angle which is not honest neither based on facts and reality.


----------



## indushek

Karthic Sri said:


> Hit and Run ..u forgot to post the last part of the transcript...i ll do the favour of posting it.
> 
> *Gellani* : And fine BTW can u please ask the ISI on my behalf wat happened to the last month salary of mine.? I still not see it credited to my bank account.
> 
> *The other dude*: Sure saab...will i not do this to a fellow Pakistani..?.Please hold the line for a few minutes.
> 
> *(Goes on another line to ISI,talks and comes after 10 mins.)*
> 
> *The other dude:* Saab they r saying that ur appraisal has been done and it has been found below expectations..They want u to "do more".But keeping in mind ur age and the amount that is to be given to the stone pelters they are right away crediting 75 % of the salary into State Bank of India.
> 
> I hope the ATM is open .
> 
> *Gellani:* Oh is it...Ok I will work with renewed energy and produce good results (young martyrs) this month.
> 
> The ATM is closed..but dont worry my boys can crack it open with their stones.
> 
> Any way nice speaking to u dude....kuda hafis.
> 
> *The other dude:* Take care saab.



Man that was excellent 

excellent da machha


----------



## graphican

IndianRobo said:


> Let me know where have I mentioned the word kashmir or kashmiri?? It is common to every one in India..... and Who care what you say about kashmir, we _Consider _it as an Integral part of India....
> 
> I do not expect you to have the same vision aswell



Considerations are not necessarily realities.  Have a good day.


----------



## HitNRun

indushek said:


> Man that was excellent
> 
> excellent da machha



Infact if you know Indian PM is on ISI Payrole


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## gurjot

geelani an isi agent!!!!!!!!!!!


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## IndianRobo

graphican said:


> *Considerations are not necessarily realities. * Have a good day.



Exactly ,Hope this Implies for everyone in here..... Have a wonderful day


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## Pride

When it comes to Kashmir Hurriyat party is last to be discussed with.. they always proved be the stooges of Pakistan and always try to bring Pakistan for Triparty negotiation...While others like JKLF are better than this..


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## somebozo

If true this is a criminal motive of defaming UN and could be delibrete as UN has sided with Pakistani version of dispute. So the Indian are trying to sway public opnion with flase flag operations. This could seriously destablize Indian reputation in UN and their probability of participation in future UN missions.

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## indopak

Asim Aquil said:


> We support Independence for Kashmir, only India is against it.








*this so called azadi sentiment are only in few pockets of kashmir valley*.

nobody in jammu&laddakh want secession/autonomy ,they want full integration with india. 
GOI can only offer autonomy to the people of valley.it doesn't have the mandate to go beyond that.territorial integrity will be maintained at any cost even if whole world turn against us.

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## KS

Materialistic said:


> LOL... seems like you guys couldn't come up with something solid or counter facts (to be more precise). So you started derailing thread!!
> 
> Good move!!
> 
> please refrain to post if you can't contribute something constructive to the topic.



Dude no offence..but y the heck should i prove anything to u..? 

im just enjoying u ppl's desperation on Kashmir here and ur celebrations of victory for a simple stone throwing protest...carry on...who am I to disrupt ur petty happiness.


----------



## Pride

EjazR said:


> Maybe some Pakistanis do, but GoP offcial position is not for independnace. Infact, it was on GoP insistence that the independance option was removed from the plebescite option.



Valid point EjazR, Not only official point but normal Pakistanin people's stand for Kashmir is misleading.. many of them come up with indeprendance of Kashmir and then others come up with merging Kashmir with Pakistan.. I have yet to find a concrete stand of Pakistan on Kashmir issue.


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## HitNRun

Karthic Sri said:


> Dude no offence..but y the heck should i prove anything to u..?
> 
> im just enjoying u ppl's desperation on Kashmir here and ur celebrations of victory for a simple stone throwing protest...carry on...who am I to disrupt ur petty happiness.



soon these stones will be heard in whole world...


----------



## HitNRun

nanmun said:


> Yah I thanked! Its not obsession my dear ... when one tries to make a comparison you need to have someone with whom you can compare.
> 
> And regarding my post... do you really think I was obsessed?  Thanks for taking it as a compliment  No need to thank me



i request all to stay on the subject matter of UN equipment usage by Indian Forces in Kashmir to kill innocent people....

Why do they use UN Equipments... thats a concern of all nations....


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## nanmun

US peace keeping force is still present in Kashmir (I think so!) May be the picture belongs to them.

Anyways, everyone knows that Indian army/CPRF is stationed in Kashmir... whats the need for wearing UN equipment? 

And regarding India using UN equipment? 
They might be Indian forces with UN, I don't think Indian army or infact any country's army is short of equipment!


----------



## Brotherhood

nanmun said:


> US peace keeping force is still present in Kashmir (I think so!) May be the picture belongs to them.
> 
> Anyways, everyone knows that Indian army/CPRF is stationed in Kashmir... whats the need for wearing UN equipment?
> 
> And regarding India using UN equipment?
> They might be Indian forces with UN, I don't think Indian army or infact any country's army is short of equipment!


*
UN Orders Indian Army to Stop Using UN Helmets *
United Progressives

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## HitNRun

nanmun said:


> US peace keeping force is still present in Kashmir (I think so!) May be the picture belongs to them.
> 
> Anyways, everyone knows that Indian army/CPRF is stationed in Kashmir... whats the need for wearing UN equipment?
> 
> And regarding India using UN equipment?
> They might be Indian forces with UN, I don't think Indian army or infact any country's army is short of equipment!



First read the BBC article and then give your response. 
Indians are using UN Equipment in Kashmir and UN order indian army not to use them, 

And on top of all of this indian Army giving lame excuses

I hope now you got the whole picture...


----------



## civfanatic

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> *Obviously even if Autonomy under Indian Constitution is provided..Armed Forces will withdraw from the Civilian areas.... but will man the borders.. and all the political prisoners will freed.. now the ball is in your court either be with us and prosper or keep fighting us and remain miserable.
> *



My post was meant for DGMO becuase he thought that by spurnning the so called autonomy offer Kashmiri leadership was making a blunder . Morever the sentiment on street is Azaadi and not autonomy and it would be political suicide for any sepratist leader to settle for one . 

We have already decided that we will fight you untill you give us azaadi even if you make our lives even more miserable .


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## Pride

HitNRun said:


> soon these stones will be heard in whole world...



Yes you attempted 3 times with arms and ammo.. now try with stones as well... YAAAAAAAAWWWWWWNNNN


----------



## d14gtc

HitNRun said:


> ?BBC Urdu? - ?????? - ??????: ????? ?????? ?? ???????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian Army using UN equipments in Kashmir and this is the true face of indian army in kashmir....
> 
> they want to show that they are UN peace keeping force and actually they kill innocents with this double face....
> 
> Kashmir is Pakistan





Just copy paste the pic an started a new thread what suits best.Perhaps already discussed the logic behind this pic...i tell u...This RAF unit is shortly landed from a UN mission n sent in J&K thereafter..... Its matter of fact a mismanged functioning on behalf of RAF officials that could be altered by providing fresh guards,helmets n equipments...... but faltered and provided a topic..dats it.


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## Materialistic

Not just Gillani, all the 13million Kashmiris, all the maoist rebels, those sikh who were fighting for Khalistan, the movement that was going on in Hydrabad. Every one on this planet even If Obama says anything against India he will also be on Payroll of ISI.


----------



## Pride

civfanatic said:


> My post was meant for DGMO becuase he thought that by spurnning the so called autonomy offer Kashmiri leadership was making a blunder . Morever the sentiment on street is Azaadi and not autonomy and it would be political suicide for any sepratist leader to settle for one .
> 
> *We have already decided that we will fight you untill you give us azaadi even if you make our lives even more miserable *.



Go ahead and try it.. oops you already tried 3 times but unsuccessful..


----------



## riju78

Materialistic said:


> Not just Gillani, all the 13million Kashmiris, all the maoist rebels, those sikh who were fighting for Khalistan, the movement that was going on in Hydrabad. Every one on this planet even If Obama says anything against India he will also be on Payroll of ISI.



Can u pls enlighten us abt the "movement " in Hyderabad. The only movement I've seen is sania mirza to Pakistan!!!!

And about khalistan it has been explained a million times here.


----------



## civfanatic

graphican said:


> ^^^ AFP is a lot more reliable resource of information than Indian one and specially so for the issue of Kashmir where India always try to show a "all good" picture to the world.



There is no strike call for today as it is 1st Ramzaan and on 14th aug as it is pakistans independence day ..However people here are still following Hurriyat (G) protest calender .....


----------



## HitNRun

actually if you read this interview you will know the reason why there is no protest today

Interview Transcript &#8211; Syed Ali Shah Geelani


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## HitNRun

d14gtc said:


> Just copy paste the pic an started a new thread what suits best.Perhaps already discussed the logic behind this pic...i tell u...This RAF unit is shortly landed from a UN mission n sent in J&K thereafter..... Its matter of fact a mismanged functioning on behalf of RAF officials that could be altered by providing fresh guards,helmets n equipments...... but faltered and provided a topic..dats it.



yes thats what indian army is capable of .....they are saying mismanged functioning where as i am saying that this is done on purpose....may be tomorrow in this mismangement they will use chines or USA equipments.

Atleast use your own identity........

Maybe they know no one in Kashmir is afraid of indian army now..... thats why they are using UN equipment now hahahha


----------



## Materialistic

Brotherhood said:


> *
> UN Orders Indian Army to Stop Using UN Helmets *
> United Progressives




Oops the baloon of reality popped so soon! Never expected!!


----------



## linkinpark

Asim Aquil said:


> India can ill-afford to resort to genocide this time. The protests have already hit New Delhi, whatever India can do, the Kashmiris can top that!



It is Pakistanis and Pakistani supported militants who perpetrated the genocide of Kashmiri Pandits. So, please keep your moral lessons to yourselves. 

All that misguided kashmiris are capable of is militancy, genocide, rioting and destroying public property. Not a nice way of protest and such protests will not be kindly accepted by India.

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## HitNRun

Materialistic said:


> Oops the baloon of reality popped so soon! Never expected!!



I think case closed... indian army found guilty by UNO......


----------



## back me up

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Kashmir will be liberated. This cannot go on forever.



only 2% kashmiris want to join pakistan

link


----------



## gurjot

HitNRun said:


> I think case closed... indian army found guilty by UNO......



ya case is closed,kashmir is an independent state now


----------



## HitNRun

gurjot said:


> ya case is closed,kashmir is an independent state now



Case is closed against Indian Army ...... Kashmir is alive.....
i have never seen a amry who change thier identity...... Only one is Indians....


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

back me up said:


> only 2% kashmiris want to join pakistan
> 
> link



IIRC, the break down of the poll indicated that in the Kashmir valley only 1% wanted to be a part of India ...


----------



## boxer_B

GreenStar said:


> This is obvious that the Kashmiri people have given there verdict that they don't want to be part of India.....in my opinion I think its best if India relinqush it's hold on Kashmir.. and give freedom to the people...and I am not saying that it should go to Pakistan...but that it should be a separate state. If that happens..then maybe tensions bewteen Pakistan and India can be resolved..and both parties can move on....but also it would show a great maturity for India to do so. I pray that this issue gets resolved..and that no more death's occur.



Dude, If someway down the line muslims become majority in Caucasian and christian London and force them to move out of their land, attack security forces and demand for independence, will you relinquish your control over london ? 

Its hypocritical tone by Pakistan demanding freedom of kashmir whereas criticizing Israel which has done same with Palestinians. 

Other muslim world understands that therefore no one is with Pakistan on this.

China's claim on any island/territory is based on han chinese immigrating to that land before any other civilization. So if it supports Pakistan on Kashmir, it will make its stand hypocritical as Hindus were the rightful owners of Kashmir before Arab invaders. Thus Chinese silence.


----------



## Areesh

RobbieS said:


> Oh really! How goody two shoes are we? Then why doesn't Pakistan withdraw its forces to pre-48 lines? Why doesnt it unilaterally vacate Azad Kashmir (sic) and Gilgit-Baltistan?



Because we don't want the terrorists from IA pollute them with their dirty presence. Got it.


----------



## Spring Onion

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *India asked to stop using UN helmets in IHK​*
> SRINAGAR: The UN has asked Indian forces cracking down on protests in violence-plagued Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) to stop wearing the distinctive powder-blue helmets of the UN peacekeeping force, a UN official said on Wednesday.
> 
> About 300 members of the paramilitary Rapid Action Force have been deployed in IHK since last week to help quell nearly two months of civil unrest that has reportedly killed more than 50 protesters and bystanders. Dozens of members of the force, armed with automatic rifles and dressed in full riot gear, have used UN-marked blue helmets and shields as they faced off against the protesters in the streets of Srinagar, the region&#8217;s main city. While the bulk of their duties consists of marching down streets in a show of strength, they have also taken part in baton charges and fired tear gas into the crowds.
> 
> Their use of UN equipment has perplexed many Kashmiris, who wondered why UN troops had taken a side in the conflict and were assisting Indian forces. &#8220;We&#8217;ve already informed the authorities about this problem,&#8221; said an officer at the UN Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorised to talk to the media. &#8220;The authorities have promised to solve this situation,&#8221; he said. ap
> 
> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
> 
> ===========
> 
> How will this get pinned on the 'Pakistan origin' UN spokesperson Haq I wonder ...




Indian Terrorist Army/puppet force hiding behind UN blue Helmets to kill Kashmiris.

 this also shows that how much the force is cunning.

By using UN helmets the occupying invader Indian terrorist army is trying to fool the world as if UN has permitted the killings of Kashmiris


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Karthic Sri said:


> Sir why should the right of the local population for self-determination be decided on the whim and fancy of the UN..?
> 
> Are the other people any less than the others just because the UN didn give legitimacy to them..? Is this some kind of American visa which is granted or rejected according to one's convinience.
> 
> Morals dont require UN stamps..If u support one group's right to self determination support all others...



It is not merely based on the 'whim and fancy' of the UN, the Governor General of India promised a plebiscite when accession was signed, and India herself accepted the argument of plebiscite in the UN, on the basis of which the UNSC resolutions were passed. 

In fact, in the case of Junagadh, where the ruler clearly acceded to India, and India invaded and occupied Pakistani territory, India justifies her annexation of Junagadh by pointing to the 'referendum' she held in Junagadh, in which the majority chose India. 

The two faced stance here is therefore that of India's - India held a referendum after invading and occupying Junagadh to claim legitimacy, and refuses to do so in Kashmir, despite agreeing to it via the UNSC resolutions.

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## linkinpark

EjazR said:


> Maybe some Pakistanis do, but GoP offcial position is not for independnace. Infact, it was on GoP insistence that the independance option was removed from the plebescite option.



Exactly, its all crocodile tears. All they want is access to Valley and ability to control rivers that flow into it.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

linkinpark said:


> Exactly, its all crocodile tears. All they want is access to Valley and ability to control rivers that flow into it.



We want the kashmiris to exercise their right to self-determination - who they choose and why is up to them. India is free to define her and our motives as she sees fit, and we are free to define our and India's motives as we see fit, and the Kashmiris can decide.

There is nothing 'crocodilian' about this - its a clear argument of letting the Kashmiris choose the nation they wish to belong to in a plebiscite, as promised them by the Governor General of India at accession, and committed to by India through support of the UNSC resolutions.


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## linkinpark

Asim Aquil said:


> Fundamentally what the UN resolutions say is "Let the people decide on their own through a vote".
> 
> Only India rejects that, Pakistan and the Kashmiris are in agreement with it.



UNSC resolutions give only option of acceding to India or Pakistan. Has no provision for Independence. If one goes by recent surveys, only 2% of Indian J&K want's to join Pakistan. So, Pakistan can forget about Kashmir's accession to it.


----------



## HitNRun

gurjot said:


> day dreams r harmful,anotherwise as u wish



if you dont have anything to say then dont post............... even now UN asked indians not to use/hide under thier equipment........


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

boxer_B said:


> Dude, If someway down the line muslims become majority in Caucasian and christian London and force them to move out of their land, attack security forces and demand for independence, will you relinquish your control over london ?


That is a nonsensical argument - Muslims have been in the majority in Kashmir for hundreds of years, and they are not immigrants who moved there. Even when the Kashmiris were not Muslim, they were Kashmiris, and converted from whatever faith they had before that. Nor were Kashmiris ever a part of an Indian State, since the Indian State itself only came into being in 1947.



> Its hypocritical tone by Pakistan demanding freedom of kashmir whereas criticizing Israel which has done same with Palestinians.


Another nonsensical argument - the Israelis are in large part comprised of immigrant Jews, who have displaced the local population in many areas and taken over their land. That does not apply to the Kashmiris, Muslim or otherwise, since they are the indigenous inhabitants of that land. Converting to another faith is not the same as immigrants from another faith moving in and displacing the indigenous peoples.


> Other muslim world understands that therefore no one is with Pakistan on this.


I believe the OIC is with Pakistan on this, as are most Muslim nations. However, no one is interested in getting into a conflict on behalf of another nation, since it does not directly affect them.


> China's claim on any island/territory is based on han chinese immigrating to that land before any other civilization. So if it supports Pakistan on Kashmir, it will make its stand hypocritical as Hindus were the rightful owners of Kashmir before Arab invaders. Thus Chinese silence.


I do not know enough about Chinese claims on those issues, but that is off topic. You can discuss it with Chinese posters in another thread.


----------



## Spring Onion

nanmun said:


> *US* peace keeping force is still present in Kashmir (I think so!) May be the picture belongs to them.


US peacekeeping force in Indian Occupied Kashmir??

When did that happen? if you are talking about UN peace keeping force in IHK then please prove if there was any in the first place.





> Anyways, everyone knows that Indian army/CPRF is stationed in Kashmir... whats the need for wearing UN equipment?
> 
> And regarding India using UN equipment?
> They might be Indian forces with UN, I don't think Indian army or infact any country's army is short of equipment!




There is NO UN peacekeeping force in Indian occupied Kashmir hence your lame excuse is a bundle of lies.


This also proves that India is defaming UN by using its equipment to kill innocent people in occupied country Kashmir.

UN should take note of it


----------



## Break the Silence

*See guys who is talking about Kashmir freedom.*



> Our fight is for independence, not autonomy, Javed Mir, a former* militant commander turned separatist *politician


----------



## RobbieS

Areesh said:


> Because we don't want the terrorists from IA pollute them with their dirty presence. Got it.



Good excuse. Then why dont you keep shut and not talk about the UNSC resolution untill you'hv implemented it yourself. Got IT?


----------



## linkinpark

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It is not merely based on the 'whim and fancy' of the UN, the Governor General of India promised a plebiscite when accession was signed, and India herself accepted the argument of plebiscite in the UN, on the basis of which the UNSC resolutions were passed.
> 
> In fact, in the case of Junagadh, where the ruler clearly acceded to India, and India invaded and occupied Pakistani territory, India justifies her annexation of Junagadh by pointing to the 'referendum' she held in Junagadh, in which the majority chose India.
> 
> The two faced stance here is therefore that of India's - India held a referendum after invading and occupying Junagadh to claim legitimacy, and refuses to do so in Kashmir, despite agreeing to it via the UNSC resolutions.



Let me quote an excerpt from the following book and mistakes Pakistani leaders made with respect to Junagadh, Kashmir and Hyderabad.



> Once again, however, Jinnah failed to explore all the options open to him. One possibility was to make compromises over another Princely State, Hyderabad. The Muslim ruler or nizam of Hyderabad faced the same dilemma as Maharaja Hari Singh. He wanted independence but was far from sure he could achieve it. Jinnah understood that it was never realistic to expect the nizam to accede to Pakistan: Hyderabad was entirely surrounded by Indian territory. But he always hoped that the nizam could pull off independence. He considered Hyderabad to be the &#8216;oldest Muslim dynasty in India&#8217; and hoped that its continued existence as an independent state right in the heart of India would provide a sense of security for those Muslims who didn&#8217;t move to Pakistan. Once again, however, Jinnah was thinking in terms of legally possible options rather than political realities. In the long term the independence of Hyderabad, while constitutionally proper, was never going to happen. The new Indian leadership saw the issue clearly enough and when the nizam tried to strike a deal which would allow him to hang on to some degree of autonomy, Delhi flatly refused to consider the idea.
> 
> In retrospect most Pakistanis would agree that it would have been worth abandoning the aspiration for an independent Hyderabad if it had meant securing Kashmir&#8217;s accession to Pakistan. Furthermore, Jinnah had good reason to believe that such a deal could have been struck. In late November 1947 Nehru and Liaquat Ali Khan met to discuss the situation in Kashmir. To understand their conversation it is first necessary to consider briefly what had happened in yet another Princely State, Junagadh.
> 
> The Muslim nawab of Junagadh ruled over a million people, 80 per cent of them Hindus. Junagadh was located in western India and, even though it was not strictly contiguous with Pakistan, its coastline offered the possibility of sea links to the Muslim state that was just 200 miles away. The nawab of Junagadh, guided by his pro-Pakistani chief minister Sir Shah Nawaz Bhutto (the father of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto), decided to ignore the feelings of his Hindu population and acceded to Pakistan. It was the mirror image of the situation in Kashmir. The Indian government did not accept the decision, blockaded Junagadh and then invaded it. Delhi then imposed a plebiscite and secured the result it desired: Junagadh became part of India. When Liaquat Ali Khan met Nehru at the end of November he exposed the illogicality of India&#8217;s position. If Junagadh, despite its Muslim rulers&#8217; accession to Pakistan, belonged to India because of its Hindu majority, then Kashmir surely belonged to Pakistan. When Liaquat Ali Kahn made this incontrovertible point his Indian interlocutor, Sardar Patel, could not contain himself and burst out: &#8216;Why do you compare Junagadh with Kashmir? Talk of Hyderabad and Kashmir and we could reach agreement.&#8217; Patel was not alone in this view. On 29 October 1947 officials at the American embassy in Delhi had told the US State Department: &#8216;the obvious solution is for the government leaders in Pakistan and India to agree &#8230; [to the] accession of Kashmir to Pakistan and the accession of Hyderabad and Junagadh to India&#8217;. British officials in London concurred.
> 
> Source: Pakistan: Eye of the Storm - Owen Bennett Jones
> 
> Page 68-69



If Liaqat Ali would have agreed for Hyderabad's accession unequivocally, Kashmir would have been Pakistan's but Liaqat Ali was greedy and impractical and the results are there for every one to see.


----------



## back me up

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> IIRC, the break down of the poll indicated that in the Kashmir valley only 1% wanted to be a part of India ...



presumptuous statement. or do u have a source? probably not.


----------



## linkinpark

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> IIRC, the break down of the poll indicated that in the Kashmir valley only 1&#37; wanted to be a part of India ...



Wrong. See the report from Chatham House's survey



> &#8226; Kashmir	Valley	Division	&#8211;	from	2%	in	Baramula	to	22%	in	Anantnag want to join India
> 
> http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/file/16664_0510pp_kashmir.pdf


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## nanmun

Jana said:


> US peacekeeping force in Indian Occupied Kashmir??
> 
> When did that happen? if you are talking about UN peace keeping force in IHK then please prove if there was any in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is NO UN peacekeeping force in Indian occupied Kashmir hence your lame excuse is a bundle of lies.
> 
> 
> This also proves that India is defaming UN by using its equipment to kill innocent people in occupied country Kashmir.
> 
> UN should take note of it




"US" is a typo ... I thought given the context everyone is intelligent enough to infer it from the picture and topic!

Lame excuse? Last time I checked there are UN offices in J&K ... 


For those who ask me to read the link posted ... sorry for my ignorance ... arabic/persian (as the google translator says) is not my forte 

Regarding the killing of people ... if you look at the facts ... no of people who have succumbed to injuries are more ... I wonder if the separatists have a hand in that (I said I wonder ... because I acknowledge unlike few that there are certain facts that are not known to everyone)

And anyways ... I feel sorry for them ... they are just ruining their life .... India in no condition is going to let an integral part of it to be taken away! (Yes! it is an integral part ... all those reasonings you are going to come up would be conspiracy theories )


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## HitNRun

nanmun said:


> "US" is a typo ... I thought given the context everyone is intelligent enough to infer it from the picture and topic!
> 
> Lame excuse? Last time I checked there are UN offices in J&K ...
> 
> 
> For those who ask me to read the link posted ... sorry for my ignorance ... arabic/persian (as the google translator says) is not my forte
> 
> Regarding the killing of people ... if you look at the facts ... no of people who have succumbed to injuries are more ... I wonder if the separatists have a hand in that (I said I wonder ... because I acknowledge unlike few that there are certain facts that are not known to everyone)
> 
> And anyways ... I feel sorry for them ... they are just ruining their life .... India in no condition is going to let an integral part of it to be taken away! (Yes! it is an integral part ... all those reasonings you are going to come up would be conspiracy theories )



conspiracy theories ????? i think you need to study history ... Kashmir is not an integral part of India. there are more then 18 UNO resulotions on it... there is no border in Kashmir its LOC .......... 

Greater Pakistan is the final solution...... get ready for it


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## gurjot

HitNRun said:


> conspiracy theories ????? i think you need to study history ... Kashmir is not an integral part of India. there are more then 18 UNO resulotions on it... there is no border in Kashmir its LOC ..........
> 
> Greater Pakistan is the final solution...... get ready for it


----------



## KS

Jana said:


> Indian Terrorist Army/puppet force hiding behind UN blue Helmets to kill Kashmiris.
> 
> this also shows that how much the force is cunning.



Not much worse than the paid stone pelters hiding behind women skirts so that the security personnel will not take action against them.

Bloody cunning of them too.


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## HitNRun

Karthic Sri said:


> Not much worse than the paid stone pelters hiding behind women skirts so that the security personnel will not take action against them.
> 
> Bloody cunning of them too.



I think you are a liar..... nothing this sort of happening in Kashmir..... 

but you didnt answer why your amry using UN equipment???????


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## KS

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It is not merely based on the 'whim and fancy' of the UN, the Governor General of India promised a plebiscite when accession was signed, and India herself accepted the argument of plebiscite in the UN, on the basis of which the UNSC resolutions were passed.



Its a *non binding resolution*..with due respect wat part of the three words u couldn understand.?



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> In fact, in the case of Junagadh, where the ruler clearly acceded to India, and India invaded and occupied Pakistani territory, India justifies her annexation of Junagadh by pointing to the 'referendum' she held in Junagadh, in which the majority chose India.
> 
> The two faced stance here is therefore that of India's - India held a referendum after invading and occupying Junagadh to claim legitimacy, and refuses to do so in Kashmir, despite agreeing to it via the UNSC resolutions.



*in Junagadh we suceeded...in Kashmir u failed....no point in harping now as we r not responsible for ur failure.*.
its like a student who fails in his examination wants the topper of his class also to be failed for the simple reason they should be treated equally.

And since u guys talk all so nicely about morals/ethics why dont we implement he same right of self-determination in Balochistan as it was also forcefully acceded to Pakistan against the Khan of Kalat's wishes.


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## KS

HitNRun said:


> I think you are a liar..... nothing this sort of happening in Kashmir.....
> 
> but you didnt answer why your amry using UN equipment???????



U can think im Osama bin Laden...but that aint going to change the facts on ground..Rite..?

Anyways read this entirely and u ll get wat im speaking about: 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/68237-female-protesters-pile-pressure-indian-administered-kashmir.html#post1046057


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## nanmun

There are the early UN proposals for resolving kashmir:

*McNaughton Proposals (1949)*

*Withdrawal of Forces*
- Pakistan's regular forces to withdraw from the state of Jammu and Kashmir
- India's regular forces not required to withdraw. They would remain for security and maintenance of law and order on the Indian side of cease-fire line (CFL)
- Disbanding of local forces, including armed forces and militia of the state of Jammu and Kashmir and Azad forces.

*Administration*
- Administration of the Northern Areas by "existing local authorities" under UN supervision

*Demilitatization*
- The agreed program of demilitarization via withdrawal of procs, preparatory to the plebiscite, to be accomplished to the satisfaction of the UN representative.

*Plebiscite*
- As per the terms of the UNCIP resolution of Hanuary 5, 1949, to be supervised by the plebiscite administrator.


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## somebozo

All appologetic INdians offering their excuses of using UN helmets or dreaming wet that UN is taking a soft stand after their attempts to single out Mr Haq were refuted with sheer diplomatic response.


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## nanmun

Didn't someone post the answer to that query about why a particular group is having those helmets? ufff!!! .... 


Anyways ... nothings gonna change ... there isn't anyone whoz gonna accept any demand for a separation ... hands down!


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## Areesh

RobbieS said:


> Good excuse. Then why dont you keep shut and not talk about the UNSC resolution untill you'hv implemented it yourself. Got IT?



Since their is insurgency and unrest in IOK so it is necessary to start the implementation of UNSC resolutions from their. AJK can join it any time. 

Got it.


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## nanmun

really? The UN resolutions says otherwise .... 

Anyways ... I think the time to implement UN resolution is long gone! The only acceptable solution or say deadlock would be to finalize the LOC as international border.


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## HitNRun

nanmun said:


> Didn't someone post the answer to that query about why a particular group is having those helmets? ufff!!! ....
> 
> 
> Anyways ... nothings gonna change ... there isn't anyone whoz gonna accept any demand for a separation ... hands down!



Basically thats the problem with you guys.... you say what your army want to say  UN pointed out that indian army is using UN equipment on purpose.. and thats what i think is rite....

they are afraid of using thier own equipments coz as they kill innocent people the army will say that was UN person who did that and we didnt killed any one in the name of investigations.....


----------



## gubbi

HitNRun said:


> Basically thats the problem with you guys.... you say what your army want to say  UN pointed out that indian army is using UN equipment on purpose.. and thats what i think is rite....
> 
> they are afraid of using thier own equipments coz as they kill innocent people the army will say that was UN person who did that and we didnt killed any one in the name of investigations.....



Dude, do you have knowledge about what you are yapping about? where do you see Indian Army troops in UN "uniform"? Can you get the difference between a uniform and a helmet through that multi layered skull of yours? Dont just let loose brain farts here. 

Its been repeated often here that, those troops are CRPF RAF troops who just returned from a overseas UN assignment. They were immediately dispatched to Kashmir and didnt have time to review their equipment. It was only a batch of those troops who were wearing *UN helmets* and not *UN uniform*. Get it?

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## nanmun

> Basically thats the problem with you guys.... you say what your army want to say UN pointed out that indian army is using UN equipment on purpose.. and thats what i think is rite....
> 
> they are afraid of using thier own equipments coz as they kill innocent people the army will say that was UN person who did that and we didnt killed any one in the name of investigations.....




@HitNRun: Exaggeration!!! You should write scripts for bollywood movies .... the stories on Kashmir and Army are a big hit with Indian people... Don't worry we accept criticism too ... 

back to topic: Did I deny the facts? Nopes! Did I say anything about the army in the quoted post? Nopes!

The use of UN equipment (if true!) for purposes other than what it was supposed to be used was, is and will be condemned! If there are any truth, I expect the Indian Army or Govt to clear the air by giving the reasons for using it. If there is no reason they have to apologize and take steps not to repeat such incidents.


----------



## d14gtc

HitNRun said:


> yes thats what indian army is capable of .....they are saying mismanged functioning where as i am saying that this is done on purpose....may be tomorrow in this mismangement they will use chines or USA equipments.
> 
> Atleast use your own identity........
> 
> Maybe they know no one in Kashmir is afraid of indian army now..... thats why they are using UN equipment now hahahha





Dude thats not indian army for your kind info,dats RAF (Rapid Action Force).....n Dont teach what IA is capable offfffffff..... whateva u say or think actually doesnt matter.... N IA knew wat they have to use n when....... whom to scare n how .


----------



## HitNRun

gubbi said:


> Dude, do you have knowledge about what you are yapping about? where do you see Indian Army troops in UN "uniform"? Can you get the difference between a uniform and a helmet through that multi layered skull of yours? Dont just let loose brain farts here.
> 
> Its been repeated often here that, those troops are CRPF RAF troops who just returned from a overseas UN assignment. They were immediately dispatched to Kashmir and didnt have time to review their equipment. It was only a batch of those troops who were wearing *UN helmets* and not *UN uniform*. Get it?



i know what i am saying here ..... where did i said uniform? i am saying equipment ..... and for your kind information *Helmets* are a part of Equipment used by any personal....... what your words.... keep that in you multi layerd skull that Helmets are part of equipment.



nanmun said:


> @HitNRun: Exaggeration!!! You should write scripts for bollywood movies .... the stories on Kashmir and Army are a big hit with Indian people... Don't worry we accept criticism too ...
> 
> back to topic: Did I deny the facts? Nopes! Did I say anything about the army in the quoted post? Nopes!
> 
> The use of UN equipment (if true!) for purposes other than what it was supposed to be used was, is and will be condemned! If there are any truth, I expect the Indian Army or Govt to clear the air by giving the reasons for using it. If there is no reason they have to apologize and take steps not to repeat such incidents.



so you think indian army accepted thier mistake and apologize to UN ....... they should be apologize for all innocent kellings in Kashmir too...


----------



## HitNRun

d14gtc said:


> Dude thats not indian army for your kind info,dats RAF (Rapid Action Force).....n Dont teach what IA is capable offfffffff..... whateva u say or think actually doesnt matter.... N IA knew wat they have to use n when....... whom to scare n how .



Another stupid post by you....... 

we know how to  that IA of yours......


----------



## nanmun

HitNRun said:


> so you think indian army accepted thier mistake and apologize to UN ....... they should be apologize for all innocent kellings in Kashmir too...



Innocent killings ... Yes! For killing terrorists ... BIG NO!! Terrorists have to be hunted down ... 

Quit worrying about other countries and start looking inwards ...


----------



## d14gtc

HitNRun said:


> Another stupid post by you.......
> 
> we know how to  that IA of yours......






mind ur tongue....... ok...... We can go off to dude.... perhaps need to show u MODs way.


----------



## Justin Joseph

*Its another conspiracy theory and fake photo shop image*

RAF's helmets clearly have RAF written over it.

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## HitNRun

Justin Joseph said:


> *Its another conspiracy theory and fake photo shop image*
> 
> RAF's helmets clearly have RAF written over it.




its not a photoshop thing .....
its on BBC site ....now dont start saying even BBC is doing Photoshop 

?BBC Urdu? - ?????? - ??????: ????? ?????? ?? ???????


----------



## gubbi

Jana said:


> Indian Terrorist Army/puppet force hiding behind UN blue Helmets to kill Kashmiris.
> 
> this also shows that how much the force is cunning.
> 
> By using UN helmets the occupying invader Indian terrorist army is trying to fool the world as if UN has permitted the killings of Kashmiris



There is no such a thing as Indian Terrorist Army. If you want to generalize the Indian Army for the despicable actions of a very few, we can apply the same yardstick to many aspects which *YOU* hold dear. Infact we have much more examples supported by irrefutable evidence to support our generalizations. Game for a mud racking slugfest? Didnt think so, so next time choose your words wisely.

Btw, for a member of your stature, one should have known the difference between the Indian Army and the Rapid Action Force of the CRPF.

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## Spring Onion

nanmun said:


> "US" is a typo ... I thought given the context everyone is intelligent enough to infer it from the picture and topic!
> 
> *Lame excuse? Last time I checked there are UN offices in J&K ...*
> 
> 
> For those who ask me to read the link posted ... sorry for my ignorance ... arabic/persian (as the google translator says) is not my forte
> 
> Regarding the killing of people ... if you look at the facts ... no of people who have succumbed to injuries are more ... I wonder if the separatists have a hand in that (I said I wonder ... because I acknowledge unlike few that there are certain facts that are not known to everyone)
> 
> And anyways ... I feel sorry for them ... they are just ruining their life .... India in no condition is going to let an integral part of it to be taken away! (Yes! it is an integral part ... all those reasonings you are going to come up would be conspiracy theories )




*
The Last time the world checked There is NO UN peacekeeping force in Occupied Jammu and Kashmir. 


The UN offices are UN observers and NOT UN peace keeping force. And when was the last time these UN observer offices in IHK had handed over UN helmets to Indian terrorist army in the valley?*



The rest of your post is same orange BS not worth replying


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

foxbat said:


> The economic downfall as a result of joining WOT is a convinient excuse paddled by Pakistani politicians. Also Pakistan's economy is still floundering despite rest of the world moving steadily out of the recession so the global phenomenon is yet another excuse to hide behind.



according to Moodys, the Pakistani economy is stable; though with recent floods it will have a detrimental impact.

this thread is about Kashmir, if you want to talk about economy then lets do it in the proper sub-forum. this is NOT the place.



> Economy of a country, that too as large as Pakistan does not become so ill in a span of 1 year, unless the issues were pre existing. And its the result of favouring extremism till 2007 (if i take your comment on face value) that is visible today in terms of well entrenched terrorist support in heartlands of Pakistan.



you seem to keep repeating yourself over and over; and I already rubbished your claims. Then you go a step further and take what I said completely out of context; Just move on. 





> Kashmir has simply become an excuse for Pakistan as the terrorists like LeT etc that used to be tools for promoting this insurgency in Kashmir earlier have become too large and strong for the Pakistani state to control completely now.



why would we need to support terrorists to help with our objectives in Kashmir. The Kashmiris are rightfully doing it on their own; they are standing up in defiance against the hindustany occupation (men, women, youth).

it's a purely Kashmiri phenomenon. You talk about ''extremism''

I think it's purely existentialism. 




by the way, LeT doesn't even exist. 



> But even if I agree to what you say about getting pulled into WOT, there is a reason why Pakistan and not Iran or any other bordering states of Afghanistan got pulled into WOT with a threat of join us or face stone age. Something to ponder over. Isnt it?



interestingly enough, Iran and U.S. (initially) had many similar objectives in Afghanistan; too bad that U.S. chose to not make amends and keep considering Iran a foe. But the WoT is going quite poorly in my opinion, since the world isn't much safer than it was before --if anything, it is more dangerous and at more risk to ideological/political forms of terrorism.

U.S. had little leverage or ways to inflict pressure on Iran. That said, it seems many in Washington are now saying that Iran is providing support to taleban and Al Qaeda. Go figure.


Again -- irrelevant to this discussion.




> And thanks for your expert comments on the level of my previous post. Neither needed nor relevant



Your post completely deviated from the topic at hand and provided little substance to this thread; therefore it can be disregarded completely.

But you are welcome.




*Violent Start to Ramzan as 4 Killed in Kashmir​*


> SRINAGAR: Indian troops killed four Muslims in Kashmir in a violent start to the holy fasting month of Ramzan, officials said Sunday.
> 
> The two were shot dead at dawn in northern Kupwara district after they infiltrated into Indian-administered Kashmir from the Pakistani zone of the divided state, an Indian army spokesman said.
> 
> Two others were killed overnight in the same district during a fierce gun battle.
> 
> The army has foiled more than a dozen attempts by militants to infiltrate into Indian-administered Kashmir from the Pakistani zone since the start of August.
> 
> Police and paramilitary forces maintained a tight watch to prevent attacks on security targets as thousands of Muslims filled mosques for afternoon prayers.
> 
> Loudhailers relayed prayers to people who knelt in the street on rugs and prayer mats in the summer capital of Srinagar.




DAWN.COM | World | Violent start to Ramzan as four killed in Kashmir


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## RobbieS

Needless hoopla over a probably stupid bureaucratic mistake. As I mentioned in another thread, RAF is deployed for many UN ops abroad. These RAF units were probably freshly returned and were rushed straight into Kashmir without any replacement equipment issued. This is certainly plausible and our babus in Home Ministry (under which RAF falls) are certainly known to make worst mistakes than these. It was a simple mistake. 

Anybody assuming different angles to the story needs to get their brains checked. India's official position doesnt warranty any UN or third-party intervention in Kashmir. So India couldnt be pulling a fast one here.


----------



## nanmun

Jana said:


> The Last time the world checked There is NO UN peacekeeping force in Occupied Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> 
> The UN offices are UN observers and NOT UN peace keeping force. And when was the last time these UN observer offices in IHK had handed over UN helmets to Indian terrorist army in the valley?


*
LAME!!!* Stop making arguments if you don't know the facts

Saudi Gazette - Thousands protest at UN office in Kashmir

Its really sad to see how one can make statements without knowing facts. 

Ya I know ... you would probably delete this post


----------



## HitNRun

nanmun said:


> *
> LAME!!!* Stop making arguments if you don't know the facts
> 
> Saudi Gazette - Thousands protest at UN office in Kashmir
> 
> Its really sad to see how one can make statements.
> 
> Knock Knock .. please wake up!



You shuold read the topic and then say something...... its really sad to see you army using UN equipment to spread hated amoung people................. question your army first and then post such post here.....

 Indian Army all gone


----------



## gubbi

Jana said:


> UN helmets to Indian terrorist army in the valley?



There you go peddling your BS again. 

Those UN helmets were worn by a few RAF personnel who infact number only *300* in the entire valley! RAF helmets are blue in color and in one of the pics one can see UN marking along with RAF markings on the helmets.


----------



## gubbi

HitNRun said:


> You shuold read the topic and then say something...... its really sad to see you army using UN equipment to spread hated amoung people................. question your army first and then post such post here.....
> 
> Indian Army all gone



Indian Army? Show me where, or else those are just brain farts of yours.

Its RAF of the CRPF. Big difference. They number only 300 in the entire valley.


----------



## HitNRun

gubbi said:


> Indian Army? Show me where, or else those are just brain farts of yours.
> 
> Its RAF of the CRPF. Big difference. They number only 300 in the entire valley.



Well International media (BBC ) reported as Indian Army.....now i think its gone into your fat mind

i dont care its RAF or CRPF , they are killing innocent people in kashmire under UN equipment cover which is not liked by UN and India asked to stop using UN equipments in indian occupied kashmir


----------



## Spring Onion

RobbieS said:


> Needless hoopla over a probably stupid bureaucratic mistake. As I mentioned in another thread, RAF is deployed for many UN ops abroad. *These RAF units were probably freshly returned and were rushed straight into Kashmir without any replacement equipment issued. This is certainly plausible and our babus in Home Ministry (under which RAF falls) are certainly known to make worst mistakes than these. It was a simple mistake. *
> 
> Anybody assuming different angles to the story needs to get their brains checked. India's official position doesnt warranty any UN or third-party intervention in Kashmir. So India couldnt be pulling a fast one here.




This is not headach of UN or the world what mistake Indian babus commit.

The reality is that Indian terrorist force in Kashmir is using UN Helmet and that is a shame for India.

Kindly get some nice helmets for Indian army if you find time from buying costly weapons


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## Spring Onion

HitNRun said:


> its not a photoshop thing .....
> its on BBC site ....now dont start saying even BBC is doing Photoshop
> 
> ?BBC Urdu? - ?????? - ??????: ????? ?????? ?? ???????



the report has quoted RAF official admitting that the force is using UN helmets.

 seems the Indians think that the entire world is blind just because they can get away with blue colour of helmets


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## Abu Zolfiqar

how PATHETIC of the hindustanys....

and quite un-soldierlike behaviour i might add. Who from the higher-ups ordered them to impersonate UN peacekeepers? 


is the army trying to distance itself from....itself as it struggles helplessly to quell weeks of civilian uprising?

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## Spring Onion

nanmun said:


> *
> LAME!!!* Stop making arguments if you don't know the facts
> 
> Saudi Gazette - Thousands protest at UN office in Kashmir
> 
> Its really sad to see how one can make statements without knowing facts.
> 
> Ya I know ... you would probably delete this post



You should keep laughing your A off for equating UN observer offices in IHK with UN peace keeping force.


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## IBRIS

Not a single helmet with UN markings on it. Can someone upload a pic of Indian RAF with UN helmet markings on it in Kashmir or STFU


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## RobbieS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> how PATHETIC of the hindustanys....
> 
> and quite un-soldierlike behaviour i might add. Who from the higher-ups ordered them to impersonate UN peacekeepers?
> 
> 
> is the army trying to distance itself from....itself as it struggles helplessly to quell weeks of civilian uprising?



Intelligent analysis, I must say.


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## HitNRun

IBRIS said:


> Not a single helmet with UN markings on it. Can someone upload a pic of Indian RAF with UN helmet markings on it in Kashmir or STFU














This is Indian Army personal , i dont care if he is from RAF, STUF, IPRAN, TABG, or SHIOUTH

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## IBRIS

HitNRun said:


> This is Indian Army personal , i dont care if he is from RAF, STUF, IPRAN, TABG, or SHIOUTH



How exactly sure are you that this picture was taken in Kashmir. It could be anywhere the Indian RAF deployed on peacekeeping missions.


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## HitNRun

IBRIS said:


> How exactly sure are you that this picture was taken in Kashmir. It could be anywhere the Indian RAF deployed on peacekeeping missions.








hmmmm well google it little bit and you will find lots of international media reporting this ... i have even given BBC website link and still you are putting this question....


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## gubbi

HitNRun said:


> This is Indian Army personal , i dont care if he is from RAF, STUF, IPRAN, TABG, or SHIOUTH



*Here is the uncropped original image:*






One can find only a couple of helmets with UN markings on them, while many have RAF markings. 

Typical use of altered images to sensationalize a non-issue. What more can you expect from some people who have literally nothing better to do!!! Hey isnt PS'ing famous in some parts of the world to sensationalize any issues?

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## prototype

the irony is that the biggest criticism that had came is just for using UN helmets,not for that what all Pakistani's dream,suppression of Kashmiri freedom,the carnage by Indian forces,killing of Kashmiri's and whatever,keep on dreaming untill somebody make a stand to speak against India


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## HitNRun

gubbi said:


> *Here is the uncropped original image:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One can find only a couple of helmets with UN markings on them, while many have RAF markings.
> 
> Typical use of altered images to sensationalize a non-issue. What more can you expect from some people who have literally nothing better to do!!! Hey isnt PS'ing famous in some parts of the world to sensationalize any issues?



well BBC posted that one person image on thier website and i have given links 3 times now..... so its you who is not paying attention to this...... 

infact i have never seen one person in any army using wrong equipment for any missions... its indian army who uses UN equipment to hide thier identity... you never know after this they went to some streets and start killing innocent people under UN name......

What a double faced army


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## IBRIS

HitNRun said:


> its indian army who uses UN equipment to hide thier identity... you never know after this they went to some streets and start killing innocent people under UN name......
> 
> What a double faced army



There are more than 150,000 paramilitary and security agencies deployed in Kasmir. Can an Indian really hide his identity under a small helmet. You can clearly tell they'r Indians. 

Indians are actually allowing there pics to be taken by media, Isn't thats enough to prove that we are not here to hide. It's not like CCP clown chasing you around every corner to prevent you from taking pictures.

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## gubbi

HitNRun said:


> well BBC posted that one person image on thier website and i have given links 3 times now..... so its you who is not paying attention to this......
> 
> infact i have never seen one person in any army using wrong equipment for any missions... its indian army who uses UN equipment to hide thier identity... you never know after this they went to some streets and start killing innocent people under UN name......
> 
> What a double faced army



Lol. Excellent brain farts here. Kudos for posting irrelevant dribble.

Anyway, generalizing is a two way game. One cannot generalize a population or an institution for the acts of a few. Beware. If you have any working gray matter, you know what I am hinting at. This applies to everyone here.

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## blain2

IBRIS said:


> How exactly sure are you that this picture was taken in Kashmir. It could be anywhere the Indian RAF deployed on peacekeeping missions.



Give it a rest. Its Indian troops. To me it looks like a lame case of reusing UN equipment from a previous deployment overseas because these folks had nothing better to use. No different than the use of cricket pads in anti-riot role. Someone thought, why not use the head gear with UN markings on it just because the RAF did not have the funding to repaint their helmets. Its actually a serious issue of undermining UN's credibility. I am sure someone is busy repainting them now.

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## blain2

gubbi said:


> *Here is the uncropped original image:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One can find only a couple of helmets with UN markings on them, while many have RAF markings.
> 
> Typical use of altered images to sensationalize a non-issue. What more can you expect from some people who have literally nothing better to do!!! Hey isnt PS'ing famous in some parts of the world to sensationalize any issues?



Makes no difference. Even if its one UN helmet, its wrong and misrepresentation of a body which is avowedly neutral and not in the business of putting down revolts in a conflict prone zones.


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## gubbi

blain2 said:


> Makes no difference. Even if its one UN helmet, its wrong and misrepresentation of a body which is avowedly neutral and not in the business of putting down revolts in a conflict prone zones.



I am in no way defending the misuse of UN markings. I for one, surely wouldnt want UN anywhere near Kashmir, which would negate Indian claims. But to say that it was done on purpose with sinister intentions, as claimed by many members here, is wrong. As you pointed out in your previous post, it was apparently a bureaucratic mistake, being rectified as we speak.


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## Spring Onion

gubbi said:


> *Here is the uncropped original image:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One can find only a couple of helmets with UN markings on them, while many have RAF markings.



1. Only few or one or in thousands it doesnt matter. What matters is misuse of name of UN. 

2. It also busted the denial of Indians on this same thread that NO it was all lie there is NO UN helmet worn by Indian force in IOK. 

Untill now you guys were in denial but when you checked it you came to know that you were just shying away from accepting the truth



> Typical use of altered images to sensationalize a non-issue. What more can you expect from some people who have literally nothing better to do!!! Hey isnt PS'ing famous in some parts of the world to sensationalize any issues?



Altered ?? where is Altered image?? YOU yourself posted the pic which clearly shows Indian personnel are wearing UN Helmets and a Pakistani member have posted another pic which clearly shows some other equipment also used by your occupying force in IOK with clear marking of UN.



The only one here we see PSING are Indians who first denied this report altogether and now making excuses that only couple of soldiers are wearing these.

On the other hand it has been reported by BBC quoting American Journalist. And also quoted RAF official admitting that his men are wearing UN helmets

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## Chocolate

HitNRun said:


> yes thats what indian army is capable of .....they are saying mismanged functioning where as i am saying that this is done on purpose....may be tomorrow in this mismangement they will use *chines *or USA equipments.
> 
> Atleast use your own identity........
> 
> Maybe they know no one in Kashmir is afraid of indian army now..... thats why they are using UN equipment now hahahha



What Chinese equipments do we use?
and i hope you didn't mean those 3rd grade toys and tee shirts!

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## you are fired

HitNRun said:


> every Kashmiri is with Pakistan.....
> 
> 
> Kashmir is a part of Pakistan



cut the crap 

you are talking about Kashmir first ask from Baluchistan 

they are fighting tere freedom war more then40 years 

if you ask them then you will know Baluchistan is not part of Pakistan


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## humanfirst

What is stoping india from holding the presbitile we promised to u.n decades ago?Can some indian members explain?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

IBRIS said:


> Indians are actually allowing there pics to be taken by media, Isn't thats enough to prove that we are not here to hide. It's not like CCP clown chasing you around every corner to prevent you from taking pictures.




Police intimidating Facebook users in Kashmir: rights group - Yahoo! News



> SRINAGAR (AFP) &#8211; *A leading rights group in Indian Kashmir said Tuesday Facebook users were being intimidated by police for uploading images of ongoing deadly protests in the Himalayan region.*
> 
> Over the past six weeks the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley has been in the grip of regular anti-India demonstrations.
> 
> *Young Kashmiris have been uploading photos and videos on social networking site Facebook and video-sharing sites like YouTube.*
> 
> The region's leading rights group, Coalition of Civil Society, said some Facebook users had been asked to report to police stations as a consequence.
> 
> "It is intimidation, nothing else," said Khurram Parvez, co-ordinator of Coalition of Civil Society. "The protests by Kashmiri youth even on virtual spaces like Facebook are not being tolerated, not to speak of the fate meted out to the protesters on the streets of Kashmir," Parvez told AFP.
> 
> *"The democratic space for dissent in Kashmir is choked," he said.*
> 
> ......................
> 
> India is wary of new technology and its ability to foment protests, as was most recently shown during demonstrations in Iran last June.
> 
> Footage of a young woman, Neda Agha-Soltan, being shot dead was put on YouTube which quickly turned her into a powerful and poignant symbol of the opposition movement.
> 
> *Last month India banned phone users from sending SMS text messages in troubled Kashmir amid fears they were being used to mobilise protests and public opinion.*

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## linkinpark

humanfirst said:


> What is stoping india from holding the presbitile we promised to u.n decades ago?Can some indian members explain?



India and Pakistan didn't agree to certain terms of plebiscite in 1948. Both were reluctant to demilitarize J&K as a pre-requisite of plebiscite. It is much more complex but that's the simple answer I can give.

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## TOPGUN

Let the people of kashmir speak for them sleves don't speak for them let them decide there way ahead no matter what it is let people in peace and let live for GOD's sake.

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## you are fired

humanfirst said:


> What is stoping india from holding the presbitile we promised to u.n decades ago?Can some indian members explain?



well can you tell me what is definition of human 

if i am not wrong human is an social animal and if you cant live with other human happy then you are just animal 

we are giving our best from 47 but sky has limit do you know how much loss we are facing in India

in bihar up,uk mans are dying and you are saying for Pakistan

we also facing flood in Himalaya leh 


no more we can


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## linkinpark

TOPGUN said:


> Let the people of kashmir speak for them sleves don't speak for them let them decide there way ahead no matter what it is let people in peace and let live for GOD's sake.



Only Kashmir valley districts in India want independence according to chatham house survey. But India is not willing to give independence because it is legally acceded to India. All Kashmiris can ask for, just like other Indians, is better jobs, education and opportunities. It has been always up to Kashmiris to live in peace but unfortunately some separatists instigated by Pakistani backing want to keep this issue on boil forever but the support across the world is dwindling for Kashmir cause as espoused by Pakistan. Sooner or later this issue will subside and people will move on with opening up of new opportunities due to the rise of Indian economy.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

linkinpark said:


> It has been always up to Kashmiris to live in peace but unfortunately some separatists instigated by Pakistani backing



do you have proof; or is this more hindustany propaganda being regurgitated by your comrades

maybe you should look at this (indian source, by the way)


On Kashmir solidarity day, separatists seek Pak&#8217;s full support


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## OTTOMAN

I expected it all along.
In order to solve an issue one has to look and move in right direction, timing is also important, otherwise all efforts, resources and energies are misdericted and wasted.

It is natural, those who are in streets taking bullets on their chests have lost every hope, they are brains who grew up in oppression, they have collected hate every day they were stripped searched and humiliated alongside their families.

Indian occupied Kashmir is a just an open air jail, with a difference where prisoners had to pay tax to the state to get their children shoot dead.

Palestine and Israel conflict is a similar example. only difference world (controlled) media is hiding the 60 years plight of Kashmiris more religously than any thing else?

Is UN blind? or is it hijacked?


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## linkinpark

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> do you have proof; or is this more hindustany propaganda being regurgitated by your comrades
> 
> maybe you should look at this (indian source, by the way)
> 
> 
> On Kashmir solidarity day, separatists seek Paks full support



What proof you want!!!. There has been cross-border terrorism for more than one decade and it is well documented and agreed upon by many Pakistani generals, politicians and writers.


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## gubbi

Jana said:


> 2. It also busted the denial of Indians on this same thread that NO it was all lie there is NO UN helmet worn by Indian force in IOK.


Show me one post by my compatriots where anyone denied UN markings were used by RAF personnel. Nobody is denying that fact. It was a logistic mistake by RAF personnel and is being rectified, I believe.


> Altered ?? where is Altered image?? YOU yourself posted the pic which clearly shows Indian personnel are wearing UN Helmets and a Pakistani member have posted another pic which clearly shows some other equipment also used by your occupying force in IOK with clear marking of UN.


An altered image is the cropped image of the original I posted. That cropped image (altered image) shows just one RAF trooper with UN markings on his headgear ignoring the fact that rest of the troops have RAF markings on theirs. Now why would anyone want to do that? Falsification of data? Hell yeah, we know how all does that and for what purposes.

Enuf said.


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## OTTOMAN

Kashmir is disputed teritory officialy declared by UN since long ago.
India is not adhering to UN resolutions of allowing Kashmiris right of self determination.
It is moral duty of whole world to encourage Indians respect international laws.


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## sur

gubbi said:


> Show me *one post* by my compatriots *where anyone denied* UN markings were used by RAF personnel. *Nobody is denying* that fact....


_Jo hukam ho meray kakaa_
Just stop stripping urself naked by insisting on what's false...

*One*


IBRIS said:


> *Not a single helmet* with UN markings on it. Can someone upload *a pic* of Indian RAF with UN helmet markings on it in Kashmir or STFU


*Second case of denial* Look at him laughing his inner fears off...


Justin Joseph said:


> *Its another conspiracy theory and fake photo shop image*
> ...


*Thrird case of denial*


nanmun said:


> US peace keeping force is still present in Kashmir (I think so!) May be the picture belongs to them.
> 
> Anyways, everyone knows that Indian army/CPRF is stationed in Kashmir... whats the need for wearing UN equipment?
> 
> And regarding India using UN equipment?
> They might be Indian forces with UN, I don't think Indian army or infact any country's army is short of equipment!

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## SONOFAGUN

Jana said:


> Indian Terrorist Army/puppet force hiding behind UN blue Helmets to kill Kashmiris.
> 
> this also shows that how much the force is cunning.
> 
> By using UN helmets the occupying invader Indian terrorist army is trying to fool the world as if UN has permitted the killings of Kashmiris



First of all Rapid Action Force is not Indian Army. It is specialised riot control police force.
Second.......Talk to your parents and they will tell you that they gone through all the passions you are going through now.
Lastly...if you talk to your parants and your grand parents moer than spending your timem in this forum, they willl tell you to conecentarte on what you have and will warn you that the consequence will be that you may end up getting sliced again. ......history..recent history.

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## Gene

OTTOMAN said:


> I expected it all along.
> In order to solve an issue one has to look and move in right direction, timing is also important, otherwise all efforts, resources and energies are misdericted and wasted.
> 
> It is natural, those who are in streets taking bullets on their chests have lost every hope, they are brains who grew up in oppression, they have collected hate every day they were stripped searched and humiliated alongside their families.
> 
> Indian occupied Kashmir is a just an open air jail, with a difference where prisoners had to pay tax to the state to get their children shoot dead.
> 
> Palestine and Israel conflict is a similar example. only difference world (controlled) media is hiding the 60 years plight of Kashmiris more religously than any thing else?
> 
> Is UN blind? or is it hijacked?



First give freedom to the ***.then talk about the freedom of Indian part of kashmir.


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## nanmun

sur said:


> _Jo hukam ho meray kakaa_
> Just stop stripping urself naked by insisting on falsehood repeatedly...
> 
> *One*
> 
> *Second case of denial* Look at him laughing his inner fears off...
> 
> *Thrird case of denial*



Please read my full post before quoting it. I think you have the ability to comprehend long english sentences/comprehension. (Pathetic!)

Anyways, if the pictures were true. It's a mistake. UN is a neutral body and its equipment is not used. 

@on the post about police intimidating Facebook users  

lol .. to think that Indian police are good in use of technology and are quick to respond ... if its true ... I'm happy that they are adopting technologies and look at the response time ...  This can be useful in good times.


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## gurjot

OTTOMAN said:


> Kashmir is disputed teritory officialy declared by UN since long ago.
> India is not adhering to UN resolutions of allowing Kashmiris right of self determination.
> It is moral duty of whole world to encourage Indians respect international laws.



i think pakistan respected all international laws

1)A Q khan
2)supporting taliban in afghanistan as repeated in the wikileaks.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

linkinpark said:


> What proof you want!!!. There has been cross-border terrorism for more than one decade and it is well documented and agreed upon by many Pakistani generals, politicians and writers.



i made a simple request; i asked you to provide evidence that Pakistan has a hand in the civilian uprising in occupied Kashmir and you couldnt even do that?


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## gurjot

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i made a simple request; i asked you to provide evidence that Pakistan has a hand in the civilian uprising in occupied Kashmir and you couldnt even do that?



IBNLive : Pawan Bali's Blog : A Stoned T-20

they r paid to do so.they provoke the police and when police fire and if some one get injured or killed.they start to do this again

http://www.zeenews.com/news640328.html

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/castrated-congressmen/645336/

No Secularism , Only Islam in Kashmir : Hurriyat Leader Announces The Kashmir

geelani says only islam is the religion in kashmir.it clarifies it's stand.what else i can say.


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## linkinpark

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i made a simple request; i asked you to provide evidence that Pakistan has a hand in the civilian uprising in occupied Kashmir and you couldnt even do that?



What better proof you need when the Hurriyat leader himself says that they are being on the payroll of Pakistan  



> *In a startling interview to a local television channel, senior Hurriyat leader Bilal Lone has come out with a shocker that every separatist leader in Jammu and Kashmir has been on Pakistan&#8217;s pay roll.* In what has embarrassed several with the Hurriyat, though the All-Parties Hurriyat Conference Chief Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has still not spoken out against the allegations made by is the direct manner in which Lone has made his claims. While being harsher on the hardliners his claims are overarching in their reach.
> 
> &#8220;I haven&#8217;t taken money from both sides. I've taken it only from one side. For the last one and a half years money from this channel has also stopped. Thank God for it. We don't betray the people who financially help us,&#8221; Lone said in the interview. On the other hand, even Syed Ali Shah Geelani, the hardliner has not reacted. He has been admitted to the hospital in Srinagar after his rally on Friday. But party sources say he has chosen not to react immediately.
> 
> 
> Pak paid separatist: Bilal Lone- TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos


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## OTTOMAN

Gene said:


> First give freedom to the ***.then talk about the freedom of Indian part of kashmir.



Kashmiris want to be part of Pakistan and this is all they want and we must respect the wishes of the masses.
Why Pakistan should be party of violating democratic right of Kashmiris?
They are our brothers and we welcome them with both hands.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

gurjot said:


> they r paid to do so.they provoke the police and when police fire and if some one get injured or killed.they start to do this again
> 
> Hurriyat faction leader behind stone-pelting protests
> 
> 'Violence in the Valley was funded by Hurriyat'



doubtful.....and the real tragedy is, a lot of those killed in encounters arent even protestors and had nothing even to do with them.

Of course killing protestors too is wrong, and now hindustan is reaping what it's sowing as can be seen 




> No Secularism , Only Islam in Kashmir : Hurriyat Leader Announces The Kashmir
> 
> geelani says only islam is the religion in kashmir.it clarifies it's stand.what else i can say.



got any other sources with the same information? I was reviewing the site and it looks to be a hastily made blog; not a source for neutrally reported news 

just for the record, Kashmir is a Muslim majority region as you may be aware


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## EjazR

*Youth who survived Leh cloudburst says army 'god sent' - India - DNA*

At a time when people in the Valley are fighting pitched battles with security forces, for 18-year-old Wahid, a victim of the deadly cloudburst, the army was god sent.

Lying at the army hospital here with cervical vertebrae fracture, Wahid, a vegetable vendor from Budgam in Kashmir, said, "I was sleeping in my shop with two others when the water suddenly gushed in. I was swept away for over a kilometre before I could grab a window bar and hold on to it."

Wahid says one of his friend was washed away while another was rescued and now has been sent back to Srinagar.

The youngster was finally saved by the army personnel and brought to the hospital.

Timely treatment meant that his fracture, which could also have resulted in complete paralysis, was taken care of.

"The army has been extremely nice. I am being looked after properly here. Had it not being for them, I would have been one among the many killed," he said adding "I am thankful to the army. The men were god sent," the youth said.

Asked about the opposition of the people against the security forces in the Valley, he said, "I came here to earn my living and I am alive now because of them and that is all I know."


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## EjazR

*J-K Govt. reaches out to victims in flash flood affected villages*

The Jammu and Kashmir government is leaving no stone unturned to reach out to the affected villagers in this flash flood ravaged region, as it has come forth to lend the much-needed helping hand to the victims.

On Thursday (August 12), relief items were dispensed to the victims in Skurbuchan and Domkhar-Do villages.

The government is providing and distributing food materials like rice, floor, sugar, blankets, mattresses and tarpaulins besides medicines to the victims of the affected area

Kunzes Angmo, an Assistant Executive Engineer with Public Works Department (PWD), supervising the affected villages said: "For immediate relief, we are providing tents, tarpaulins, blankets, mattresses and some food materials like floor, rice, cooking oil and spices etc, which the victims require for their survival."

Several international tourists have stayed back and joined the rescue and relief operations.

A common sight was group of tourists actively clearing an affected area. The villages of Basgo, Urtsi, Taru and Saboo were also supplied relief materials.

The Deputy Commissioner of Ladakh mentioned that personnel from the army and other organisations have tirelessly helped the government in the relief operations.

"We provided cooked food to the victims in the first four to five days with the help of different agencies for which we have availed help from the army, ITBP (Indo-Tibetan Border Police) and many NGOs to came forward to help us and now we are providing them (the victims) dry food materials," said Tsering Angchuk, Deputy Commissioner and Chief Executive Officer, Ladakh Division.

The administration has endeavoured to restore normalcy in the region, particularly in the remote villages which have been further isolated after the cloudburst and unexpected floods. By Shashank Shantanu (ANI)


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Indian Forces Face Broader Revolt in Kashmir​*
August 12, 2010

By LYDIA POLGREEN

SRINAGAR, Kashmir  Late Sunday night, after six days on life support with a bullet in his brain, Fida Nabi, a 19-year-old high school student, was unhooked from his ventilator at a hospital here.

Mr. Nabi was the 50th person to die in Kashmirs bloody summer of rage. He had been shot in the head, his family and witnesses said, during a protest against Indias military presence in this disputed province.

For decades, India maintained hundreds of thousands of security forces in Kashmir to fight an insurgency sponsored by Pakistan, which claims this border region, too. The insurgency has been largely vanquished. But those Indian forces are still here, and today they face a threat potentially more dangerous to the worlds largest democracy: an intifada-like popular revolt against the Indian military presence that includes not just stone-throwing young men but their sisters, mothers, uncles and grandparents.

The protests, which have erupted for a third straight summer, have led India to one of its most serious internal crises in recent memory. Not just because of their ferocity and persistence, but because they signal the failure of decades of efforts to win the assent of Kashmiris using just about any tool available: money, elections and overwhelming force.

We need a complete revisit of what our policies in Kashmir have been, said Amitabh Mattoo, a professor of strategic affairs at Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi and a Kashmiri Hindu. It is not about money  you have spent huge amounts of money. It is not about fair elections. It is about reaching out to a generation of Kashmiris who think India is a huge monster represented by bunkers and security forces.

Indeed, Kashmirs demand for self-determination is sharper today than it has been at perhaps any other time in the regions troubled history. It comes as  and in part because  diplomatic efforts remain frozen to resolve the dispute created more than 60 years ago with the partition of mostly Hindu India and Muslim Pakistan. Today each nation controls part of Kashmir, whose population is mostly Muslim.

Secret negotiations in 2007, which came close to creating an autonomous region shared by the two countries, foundered as Pervez Musharraf, then Pakistans president, lost his grip on power. The terrorist attacks in Mumbai, Indias financial capital, by Pakistani militants in 2008 derailed any hope for further talks.

Not least, India has consistently rebuffed any attempt at outside mediation or diplomatic entreaties, including efforts by the United States. The intransigence has left Kashmiris empty-handed and American officials with little to offer Pakistan on its central preoccupation  India and Kashmir  as they struggle to encourage Pakistans help in cracking down on the Taliban and other militants in the country.

With no apparent avenue to progress, many Kashmiris are despairing that their struggle is taking place in a vacuum, and they are taking matters into their own hands.

What we are seeing today is the complete rebound effect of 20 years of oppression, said Mirwaiz Umer Farooq, the chief cleric at Srinagars main mosque and a moderate separatist leader. Kashmiris, he said, are angry, humiliated and willing to face death.

This summer there have been nearly 900 clashes between protesters and security forces, which have left more than 50 civilians dead, most of them from gunshot wounds. While more than 1,200 soldiers have been wounded by rock-throwing crowds, not one has been killed in the unrest, leading to questions about why Indian security forces are using deadly force against unarmed civilians  and why there is so little international outcry.

The world is silent when Kashmiris die in the streets, said Altaf Ahmed, a 31-year-old schoolteacher.

On Tuesday, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh made an emotional appeal for peace.

I can feel the pain and understand the frustration that is bringing young people out into the streets of Kashmir, the Indian prime minister said in a televised speech. Many of them have seen nothing but violence and conflict in their lives and have been scarred by suffering.

Indeed, there is a palpable sense of opportunities squandered. Despite the protests of recent years, the Kashmir Valley had in the past few years been enjoying a season of peace.

The insurgency of the 1990s has mostly dried up, and elections in 2008 drew the highest percentage of voters in a generation. High expectations met the new chief minister, Omar Abdullah, a scion of Kashmirs leading political family, whose fresh face seemed well suited to bringing better government and prosperity to Kashmir.

But election promises, like repealing laws that largely shield security forces from scrutiny and demilitarizing the state, went unfulfilled. After two summers of protests on specific grievances, this summers unrest has taken on a new character, one more difficult to define and mollify.

That anger has led to a cycle of violence that the Indian government seems powerless to stop. Events that unfolded last week in Pulwama, a small town 20 miles from Srinagar, illustrate how the violence feeds itself.

It began on Monday, Aug. 2, when a young man, Mohammad Yacoub Bhatt, from a village near Pulwama was shot dead during a march to protest the earlier killings of other young protesters.

Four days later, a procession set off to protest his death. Soon it swelled into the thousands. The police blocked the road and refused to let the marchers pass, worried that the crowd would burn down government buildings, as previous crowds had.

What happened next is disputed. Protesters claimed that when they tried to surge through a barricade, the police opened fire.

We did not think they would open fire, said Malik Shahid, 17, who had joined the march. There was no violence. It was a peaceful protest.

First the police fired in the air, witnesses said, then into the scattering crowd. A bullet felled Mr. Shahids uncle, Shabir Ahmed Malik, a 24-year-old driver, and killed him on the spot.

Mr. Shahid, a 12th grader who hopes to become an engineer, said the latest violence was evidence to him that remaining part of India was impossible.

If India took steps against those who kill us, maybe the people of Kashmir would be willing, he said. But when there is no justice how can we remain with India? They are not doing anything but killing. So we will just go for freedom.

Commandant Prabhakar Tripathy, spokesman for the Central Reserve Police Force, the main paramilitary force trying to keep order in Kashmir, declined to comment on the episode but said that the protests were not as spontaneous as they appeared.

Militants are just mingling with the crowd, firing bullets from the crowd, Mr. Tripathy said. Now they are trying to raise this confrontation between the public and the security forces.

We are charging them with tear gas, rubber pellets, firing in the air, nothing works here, he said. When a crowd of thousands attacks the camp, what can you do?

Indian officials have tried to portray Kashmirs stone-throwing youths as illiterate pawns of jihadist forces across the Pakistan border and have suggested that economic development and jobs are the key to getting young people off the streets.

But many of the stone throwers are hardly illiterate. They organize on Facebook, creating groups with names like Im a Kashmiri Stone Pelter. One young man who regularly joins protests and goes by the nom de guerre Khalid Khan has an M.B.A. and a well-paying job.

Stone pelting is a form of resistance to their acts of repression in the face of peaceful protest, he said in an interview. I would call it self-defense. Stones do not kill. Their bullets kill.

Each death seems to feed the anger on the streets, creating new recruits for the revolt. Fida Nabis brother, Aabid, 21, watched over him as he drifted toward death this week, his head swathed in white bandages, his chest rising and falling to the ghostly rhythm of the ventilator.

Aabid thought he had his life all mapped out  making more than $200 a month as a news photographer. But since his brother was shot his priorities have changed. I used to cover the protests, he said. But now I will join them.

Hari Kumar contributed reporting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/13/world/asia/13kashmir.html

=============

Finally it makes it to the front page of the NYT.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Also check out the NYT interactive, with some very touching pictures:

India Faces Broader Revolt in Kashmir - Slide Show - NYTimes.com

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## indushek

Have been facing this from seen and unseen forces right from the start, no problem we will weather out anything.


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## Spring Onion

SONOFAGUN said:


> First of all Rapid Action Force is not Indian Army. It is specialised riot control police force.



 and personnel in RAF are from Somalia 





> Second.......Talk to your parents and they will tell you that they gone through all the passions you are going through now.
> Lastly...if you talk to your parants and your grand parents moer than spending your timem in this forum, they willl tell you to conecentarte on what you have and will warn you that the consequence will be that you may end up getting sliced again. ......history..recent history.



You should SHUT UP and Concentrate on bharti mentality you might be able to reform yourself


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## amit30

Jana said:


> and personnel in RAF are from Somalia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You should* SHUT UP *and Concentrate on bharti mentality you might be able to reform yourself



who the hell you are to tell any one shut up 
well Bhatari mentality is much batter than Pak mentality and also recognise by whole world

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## gurjot

y do they cover there faces.they know forces will grill them if identified


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## dabong1

Time to kick the indian occupation forces out of kashmir

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## EjazR

*GreaterKashmir Daily Thousands offer prayers at Jamia Masjid*

Srinagar: Thousands of people are attending Friday prayers at Srinagar's historic Jamia Masjid today after several weeks of break due to continued curfew and restrictions in the city.

Thousands of people from many areas of Srinagar reached the mosque both individually and in processions. Mirwaiz Umar Farooq is delivering the Friday sermon.

Pertinently, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, who has been under continuous house arrest, had called for a march to Jamia Masjid in Srinagar today and had announced that he would defy the restrictions and offer prayers at the Jamia Masjid.


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## EjazR

*Daily Times -COMMENT:The road to ruling Muzaffarabad passes through Islamabad*

LAHORE: The stakeholders sitting outside the boundaries of Azad Jammu and Kashmir are always the reason behind making and breaking the governments there and the recent episode of changing the key players in the power corridors of Kashmir is a continuity of this.

This can be judged by the statement of former AJK prime minister Barrister Sultan Mehmood, who had said, &#8220;It&#8217;s necessary to spend six out of seven days of a week in Islamabad to continue as a primer minister of Kashmir.&#8221;

A study of the history of Kashmir&#8217;s politics reveals that the governments in Azad Kashmir have always been dependent on the influential people sitting in the federal capital of Pakistan and every head of the government there has had strong links with Islamabad.

The study tells that the democratic set-up in Kashmir had been introduced in 1970 under the presidential system on the basis of an adult franchise when Sardar Muhammad Abdul Qayyum Khan took charge as the first elected president of AJK, as the head of the government as well as the head of the state. The first assembly also came into being and the people of AJK and the refugees settled in Pakistan elected the legislative assembly as well as the Azad Jammu and Kashmir president. The presidential system worked for four years. Later, in 1974, some major constitutional changes were made when an interim constitution was adopted and the parliamentary system of democracy was introduced in the state.

The parliamentary system was introduced and the prime minister, as the executive head of the state, was elected by majority of the votes of the assembly. Khan Abdul Hameed Khan was elected as the first prime minister of Azad Jammu and Kashmir and Sardar Muhammad Ibrahim Khan was elected as the president.

This government was suspended in August 1977 due to the enforcement of a martial law in Pakistan. Brig Muhammad Hayat Khan was appointed the chief executive and later, Maj General (r) Abdul Rehman was appointed the president-cum-chief executive in February 1983. In 1985, the martial law was lifted and a civil set-up was established in Pakistan, elections for the legislative assembly were held and Sardar Sikander Hayat Khan took over as the prime minister and Sardar Abdul Qayyum Khan as president of the state. They both belong to the Muslim Conference and are close associates of the then dictator Gen Ziaul Haq. Zia used to call Sardar Qayyum his murshid (mentor). Gen Zia always supported Qayyum and with Zia&#8217;s blessings, he ruled AJK. This assembly was elected for five years and worked until 1990.

Elections were held again in 1990, for the fourth time. This time around, the PPP had come into power in Islamabad and late Benazir Bhutto became the prime minister. A PPP leader in Kashmir, Raja Mumtaz Hussain Rathore, was elected as prime minister with the blessings of Islamabad.

The PPP government in Pakistan was dissolved and the trickle-down effect reached Muzaffarabad as well. It was very difficult for Mumtaz Rathore to continue as the prime minister and before any no-confidence motion, he dissolved the assembly.

The fifth government in AJK came into power in 1991, when Nawaz Sharif became the prime minister of Pakistan. Nawaz was considered the political legacy of Ziaul Haq. Sardar Qayyum was very comfortable with Nawaz, as the two were close to the dictator. Qayyum became the prime minister and Sardar Sikandar Hayat Khan was elected as the president. This government continued for five years up to 1996. The new elections were held in 1996 when the PPP was once again in power in Islamabad and the entire episode repeated. PPP Kashmir leader Barrister Sultan Mehmood Chaudhry was elected as the prime minister and Sardar Muhammad Ibrahim Khan was elected as the president with Islamabad&#8217;s help.

The next elections were held in 2001. During this time, another martial law had been imposed in Pakistan. A group of the Muslim Conference, led by Sardar Sikandar Hayat Khan, had won the elections and formed a government. Maj Gen (r) Sardar Muhammad Anwar Khan was elected as the president with the support of Musharraf-led authorities in Pakistan.

The constitution was amended once again and through the 11th Constitutional Amendment, one more seat was approved for Azad Jammu and Kashmir, hence the total number of seats for AJK became 49. Details of the seats in AJK reveal that the seats reserved for the people of Azad Kashmir were 29, refugees settled in Pakistan 12, women five, and one each for clerics, overseas Kashmiris and technocrats.

Out of the 49 seats, 12 had been fixed for refuges living in Pakistan. In fact, these 12 seats have always been won by the people, who have support from the sitting government in Pakistan. History tells us that these 12 members of the AJK assembly always belonged to the ruling party of Pakistan. Polling for these 12 seats is held in Pakistan and the sitting governments always manoeuvre the results to make their favourites win. These 12 MLAs play a vital role in making or breaking the governments in Azad Kashmir.

&#8220;These 12 seats are reserved in the Kashmir assembly, only to get a hold, as no resolution or law could be passed against the wishes of the sitting governments in Islamabad. Actually, these people are there to balance or imbalance the equilibrium of power in Kashmir on the wishes of Islamabad,&#8221; a Kashmiri national said.

The power players sitting in Islamabad always use these 12 people to get the desired results is Muzaffarabad. This game was played yet again in Kashmir, as the general elections for the Kashmir assembly were held on July 11, 2006. This time, the PML-Q was ruling Pakistan. Sardar Attique paved his way to the power corridors with the help of the Chaudhry cousins of Gujrat. The cousins had good relations with Sardar Qayyum of the Muslim Conference, Sardar Ibrahim and Barrister Sultan Mehmood. They managed to get Sardar Attique accepted as the PM by the Musharraf regime. This assembly elected Raja Zulqarnain Khan as the AJK president.

In 2008, the Pakistan government was changed as result of general elections and the PPP came into power. Hence, a change of government in Kashmir was evident. A no-confidence motion was moved against Sardar Attique by a five-party alliance that voted him out. Raja Farooq Haider, who was leading the forward bloc comprising eight members of the Muslim Conference, was a major component of the alliance.

As a result of the passage of this motion, Sardar Yaqoob became the PM. He could only complete nine months in power with a four-party parliamentary coalition. In the no-confidence move, the name of MLA Raja Farooq was mentioned as an alternate candidate to the office of the AJK premier.

The motion came following a deal reportedly brokered by ex-prime minister Sardar Sikandar uniting the two factions of the Muslim Conference &#8211; one led by MLA Raja Farooq, a part of the government, and the other by opposition leader Sardar Attique. Raja Farooq, with a group of the Muslim Conference assembly members, had parted ways early in January 2009 with their own party&#8217;s government headed by Sardar Attique.

The motion was carried and Raja Farooq became the premier of AJK. His government could also complete only nine months when the Muslim Conference, the People&#8217;s Party, and the Friends&#8217; Group presented a no-confidence motion against him.

Sardar Attique, president of the ruling All-Jammu and Kashmir Muslim Conference and former AJK premier, was nominated as an alternate candidate for the premiership.

This time, the central role in changing the chief executive of AJK was played by Kashmir Affairs Minister Manzoor Wattoo. Sardar Attique had the opportunity to get closer to the federal government, especially Wattoo, in the case of Justice Riaz Akhtar.

AJK President Raja Zulqarnain Haider, AJK PPP President Chaudhry Majeed, former premier Barrister Sultan and Muslim Conference President Sardar Attique joined hands to oust Raja Farooq from office.

It is said that the PPP&#8217;s top leaders President Asif Ali Zardari and Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani had accepted Sardar Attique as the new leader on the recommendations of Manzoor Wattoo.

Until the filing of this report, Sardar Attique was elected as the prime minister of AJK unopposed, as no candidate filed nomination papers against him. The notion that the road to get power in AJK passes through Islamabad has been proved yet again.


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## IndianRobo

dabong1 said:


> Time to kick the indian occupation forces out of kashmir



trying for 60+ years, and the time hasnt come yet??? Well Once the kashmiris will Learn from there mistakes and Find out who the Real culprits are... Lol... Lets wait and see...

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## HitNRun

dabong1 said:


> Time to kick the indian occupation forces out of kashmir



Yes its about to happen


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## HitNRun

IndianRobo said:


> trying for 60+ years, and the time hasnt come yet??? Well Once the kashmiris will Learn from there mistakes and Find out who the Real culprits are... Lol... Lets wait and see...



Indian Learn from thier mistakes..... 60 YEars and still they are fighting for freedom... you cant change thier minds in 60 years .....

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## IndianRobo

HitNRun said:


> Indian Learn from thier mistakes..... 60 YEars and still they are fighting for freedom... you cant change thier minds in 60 years .....



Well, We couldnt, we consider it as a failure, But its also a Victory that we did not allow any Foreign Power to Divide it.... Well Its an Issue which would Cool down in the Coming Years,... We have Several Developments happening in Kashmir.... when they get a Mean to Live they would calm Down...

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## Vinod2070

The current mini crisis is already over. Wait for some more time before raising your hopes.

India is not going to be broken for narrow sectarianism and religious hatreds again. Bigots have the gate open for them. Just close the door behind you.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Vinod2070 said:


> The current mini crisis is already over. Wait for some more time before raising your hopes.


The physical demonstrations of a lack of acceptance of Indian occupation will ebb and flow over time, as they have done - the ebb does not change the reality of the situation in terms of a refusal to accept Indian occupation


> India is not going to be broken for narrow sectarianism and religious hatreds again. Bigots have the gate open for them. Just close the door behind you.


The Kashmiris are trying to close the door behind them, but they have to push the Indian invaders out of the house first.

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## EjazR

*India committed to Palestinian cause, says S.M. Krishna*

Srinagar: Setting an inspirational example of brotherhood and communal amity in the ongoing the holy month of Ramadan, a group of Muslims on Thursday here helped their Hindu brethrens to perform the last rites of a Kashmiri Hindu.

Somnath Koul, a Kashmiri Pandit, died at about 7:00 a.m.. But in the absence of enough people to properly perform the last rites, the Muslim neighbours filled the vacuum.

"This body is of our neighbour who was a Kashmiri Pandit. He died at around 7 in the morning today (August 12). There were just a few Pandits in their house, rest of us are all Muslims, so we have assisted in the performing of all his last rites," said Shahid Muneer, a Muslim neighbour of Somnath Koul.

Veerjee Koul, son of the deceased Somnath expressed his gratitude to his Muslim neighbours.

"Muslims have contributed a lot. 90 percent of the people present here are Muslims. As you have seen how many people were present here. So we are very thankful to the Muslims," said Veerjee Koul, son of the deceased.

It was a rare sight to witness a large number of Muslims making their presence felt during the last rites of a Hindu.

So much so the Muslims facilitated almost all the arrangements for the final rituals.

Somnath was a resident of Chanapora region on the outskirts of Srinagar city.

On the onset of turbulence in the Kashmir valley, there was an exodus of thousands of Kashmiri Pandit families who migrated to other places of the country.

However, the family members of Somnath decided to stay back in the valley. (ANI)


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## somebozo

IndianRobo said:


> Well, We couldnt, we consider it as a failure, But its also a Victory that we did not allow any Foreign Power to Divide it.... Well Its an Issue which would Cool down in the Coming Years,... We have Several Developments happening in Kashmir.... when they get a Mean to Live they would calm Down...



ISI keeps hundred thousand troops busy in Kashmir with assitance of some stone pelters as per Indian offical media. Isnt "ISI" a forigen power or your have surrendered now??


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## somebozo

The Kashmiris are not fighting against Hindu, they are fighting against India. In contradiction to popular Indian media myths.

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## Jacobtheindoamerican

Millions and millions of pandits have been uplifted from their indigenous home land and no one ever talks about it. Even India.

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## parasite

I think if our neighboring country had not interfered in Kashmir.....valley would have been a peaceful paradise.......


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## Vinod2070

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The physical demonstrations of a lack of acceptance of Indian occupation will ebb and flow over time, as they have done - the ebb does not change the reality of the situation in terms of a refusal to accept Indian occupation



Well, we will get back to the pre-1989 situation soon. Before Pakistan thought it could do an Afghanistan on India. Kashmir was fully integrated then and it will be fully integrated again soon.

Pakistan has the blood of millions of Afghans and thousands of Kashmiris on its hands in it's irrational pursuit of being the inheritor of the invaders of India.



> The Kashmiris are trying to close the door behind them, but they have to push the Indian invaders out of the house first.



I am amazed that Pakistanis still have time to think of Kashmiris when so much is going on within.

Irrespective, you are never gonna get Kashmir. As Irfan Husain said:

*Grow up and smell the coffee*

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## EjazR

somebozo said:


> The Kashmiris are not fighting against Hindu, they are fighting against India. In contradiction to popular Indian media myths.



The valley Kashmirs have not problem with the Pandits. But Pakistani backed militants do. It was due to attacks by groups like LeT Hizb e.t.c that thousands of Hindus had to move out of the valley.


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## Pride

EjazR said:


> The valley Kashmirs have not problem with the Pandits. But Pakistani backed militants do. It was due to attacks by groups like LeT Hizb e.t.c that thousands of Hindus had to move out of the valley.



Not to forget to add Sikhs as well. Who were killed by those freedom fighters on the eve of Bill Clinton's arrival to India... Hypocrites..Talk about Kashmirs and then sneak the religion into that...


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## rastor

self-deleted


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Vinod2070 said:


> Well, we will get back to the pre-1989 situation soon. Before Pakistan thought it could do an Afghanistan on India. Kashmir was fully integrated then and it will be fully integrated again soon.


Yes, you keep saying that and the Kashmiris keep getting angrier. I am sure its is comforting to live in a world of delusions.



> Pakistan has the blood of millions of Afghans and thousands of Kashmiris on its hands in it's irrational pursuit of being the inheritor of the invaders of India.


Nonsense. The Soviets have that blood on their hands, not Pakistan. If you wish to blame Pakistan for the post Soviet violence and chaos, then you also have to blame the Americans. Cherry picking history and concocting numbers to make fantastic claims does not make your arguments any more valid, it only illustrates how desperate you are to resort to such rhetorical tactics.


> I am amazed that Pakistanis still have time to think of Kashmiris when so much is going on within.


Why not? People can multi-task, and at the moment the Kashmiris are physically expressing their disgust and anger with the Indian occupation and invaders, and therefore Pakistanis should do their bit to support them in that endeavor.


> Irrespective, you are never gonna get Kashmir. As Irfan Husain said:
> 
> *Grow up and smell the coffee*



Commentators say many things, they are not seers - but what is true is the depravity of many Indians in cheering the occupation and oppression of people and the blatant violation of the promise to those people of self-determination. Puts the whole 'tolerant, secular India BS' in complete perspective doesn't it? Bigots, hate-mongers and people stuck in a time warp seeking to avenge the 'Muslim invader' from hundreds of years ago.

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## foxbat

Huh! Why was my post labeled as a trolling. Is that the new meaning for conflicting views? I was simply questioning the magnitude of elation felt by Pakistani members on a news article in NY times that led to *creation of a separate thread for a topic for which countless threads already exist*.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

foxbat said:


> Huh! Why was my post labeled as a trolling. Is that the new meaning for conflicting views? I was simply questioning the magnitude of elation felt by Pakistani members on a news article in NY times that led to *creation of a separate thread for a topic for which countless threads already exist*.



Because much of it had nothing to do with Kashmir, and the rest of it was a rant based on imaginary comments, about the article, attributed to Pakistanis.


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## Awesome

Finally NYT notices Kashmir. Indian delusions and the delusions it had successfully sold to the world are now quickly unraveling. Kashmiris want Azadi, nothing can stop them now.


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## Meengla

As you all know, the latest Kashmir uprising news has made it to the front of the NYTimes: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/13/world/asia/13kashmir.html?hp

and you can count on Indians and Pakistanis and some Westerners in the 'Comments' section to promote their own ideas. For once, I am not going to Comment there. No point in 'point scoring' via the Recommendation route.

We can do a better job here, I guess!

One interesting point in the article is that Musharraf came close to having an agreement with India over some kind of shared-control in 2007. I think Musharraf was brave, large hearted and foresighted and I also think Manmohan Singh also responded by saying that 'borders can be made irrelevant'. Then came the change in govt. in Pakistan. Indian establishment was in 'wait' mode to see what would be the new policy of the new govt. after it settled down. But then came the Mumbai tragedy which left MMS with very little room to play. The same 'Kashmiri' group which made one of the attacks against Musharraf could be the one who benefited from Mumbai.

Let's discuss what Mush-MMS were about to implement and build on that. Zardari is called a 'traitor' by most of the parochial Pakistani blogspace and so his position could be even softer than Mush.

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## linkinpark

Vinod2070 said:


> Well, we will get back to the pre-1989 situation soon. Before Pakistan thought it could do an Afghanistan on India. Kashmir was fully integrated then and it will be fully integrated again soon.
> 
> Pakistan has the blood of millions of Afghans and thousands of Kashmiris on its hands in it's irrational pursuit of being the inheritor of the invaders of India.
> 
> 
> 
> I am amazed that Pakistanis still have time to think of Kashmiris when so much is going on within.
> 
> Irrespective, you are never gonna get Kashmir. As Irfan Husain said:
> 
> *Grow up and smell the coffee*



It seems the Pakistani establishment and some Pakistanis doesn't pay heed to what some of the Pakistani intellectuals have to say regarding Kashmir. Intellectuals like Irfan Hussain, Najam Sethi etc with their pragmatism have been saying that Pakistan has tried all different kinds of policies (like terrorism, wars, stoking separatism etc) for 60 years to get its hands on Kashmir but they have failed in all of them. In doing so, they have been losing their country to terrorism that its establishment has been supporting for decades in its back yard.

The only solution left for Pakistan or even kashmiri separatists (valley sunni muslims) is to accept status quo and move on. Because in the larger context, if they continue the same way, they are the biggest losers.

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## linkinpark

Asim Aquil said:


> Finally NYT notices Kashmir. Indian delusions and the delusions it had successfully sold to the world are now quickly unraveling. *Kashmiris want Azadi, nothing can stop them now.*



Yes, India can stop and it's been doing this for 63 years.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

linkinpark said:


> It seems the Pakistani establishment and some Pakistanis doesn't pay heed to what some of the Pakistani intellectuals have to say regarding Kashmir. Intellectuals like Irfan Hussain, Najam Sethi etc with their pragmatism have been saying that Pakistan has tried all different kinds of policies (like terrorism, wars, stoking separatism etc) for 60 years to get its hands on Kashmir but they have failed in all of them. In doing so, they have been losing their country to terrorism that its establishment has been supporting for decades in its back yard.
> 
> The only solution left for Pakistan or even kashmiri separatists (valley sunni muslims) is to accept status quo and move on. Because in the larger context, if they continue the same way, they are the biggest losers.



The terrorism in Pakistan is primarily the result of the Afghan conflict, and the US invasion of Afghanistan, and not the Kashmir conflict.

And I fail to see how any Indian can morally and ethically not support the right to self-determination promised to Kashmiris by India herself.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

linkinpark said:


> Yes, India can stop and it's been doing this for 63 years.



How long did the British invade and occupy the sub-continent for?

India's aukat is no different.

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## linkinpark

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The terrorism in Pakistan is primarily the result of the Afghan conflict, and the US invasion of Afghanistan, and not the Kashmir conflict.
> 
> And I fail to see how any Indian can morally and ethically not support the right to self-determination promised to Kashmiris by India herself.



Afghan conflict might be the primer but many of the previous terrorist organizations who worked in Kashmir are also now part of terrorism against Pakistan.

Not just India, even Pakistan is also part of this self-determination plebiscite. But due to intransigence from both sides didn't let this happen. Just blaming India is not fair.

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## foxbat

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The terrorism in Pakistan is primarily the result of the Afghan conflict, and the US invasion of Afghanistan, and not the Kashmir conflict.
> 
> And I fail to see how any Indian can morally and ethically not support the right to self-determination promised to Kashmiris by India herself.



The terrorists didnt start popping up because US attacked Afghanistan. They already existed but were just ignored and utilized by Pakistan in Kashmir and Afghanistan as a proxy. So while the attacks within Pakistan are a result of Musharraf agreeing to turn against the past allies i.e. Taliban, the terrorism was already existing within its borders in the form of these terrorists who were earlier only targeting Aghanistan and India and started targeting Pakistan after it decided to side with USA. 

Metaphorically, Pakistan was already riding the tiger of terrorism, its just that post 9/11 Pakistan has been trying to get off but that's turning out to be a little difficult..


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## foxbat

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How long did the British invade and occupy the sub-continent for?
> 
> India's aukat is no different.



So lets talk in about 140 years?


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## linkinpark

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How long did the British invade and occupy the sub-continent for?
> 
> India's aukat is no different.



Size matters. You cannot compare India and Kashmir. And its only kashmir valley that needs to be controlled and its size is not even 1/100th of whole India.By the way, we are not foreign forces, we came to Kashmir after accession by Hari Singh not before. Its actually Pakistan is the occupying force as they are the ones with their tribals and military who invaded Kashmir.

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## anurag_singh

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How long did the British invade and occupy the sub-continent for?
> 
> India's aukat is no different.



Bro at that time only 100000 british were in India and there were 350 million Indians.
But here at most 3 million people are against more than one billlion people.(If you assume all valley people are against India which is not the case)


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## foxbat

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Because much of it had nothing to do with Kashmir, and the rest of it was a rant based on imaginary comments, about the article, attributed to Pakistanis.



So I can replicate the post with the parts about Kashmir highlighted, but what's the point. But if there were parts that were incorrect and unsubstantiated, why not refute them.? I did not abuse anyone and while there were comparisons drawn to situation in Pakistan, the comparisons were with Kashmir only.. 

But your forum...your call..

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## Mirza Jatt

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How long did the British invade and occupy the sub-continent for?
> 
> India's aukat is no different.



its different for sure. How can you compare both ?? British were outsiders who crossed the sea to come here in the sub continent...and they had nothing to loose in terms of their own land if they left the subcontinent.

Lets face it Agno...and I have heard even some Pakistani officials to have accepted the fact that India will not allow its part of Kashmir to anyone. you call it arrogannce or whatever, but thats the truth now.

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## KS

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How long did the British invade and occupy the sub-continent for?
> 
> India's aukat is no different.



*British = apples,Indian = Oranges.*

British came in ships in the hundreds to a land they had no connection whatsoever and left only after a steel begging bowl was given in ther hands after WWII.

On the contrary *we r in a land that has centuries old deep ethnic,historic and religious significance/connection to us*. 

And a begging bowl is not coming into our hands any time soon.

So "*wake up and smell the coffee"* 




Asim Aquil said:


> *Finally NYT notices Kashmir.* Indian delusions and the delusions it had successfully sold to the world are now quickly unraveling. Kashmiris want Azadi, nothing can stop them now.



Time to party...NYT has granted "azaadi" to Kashmiris....

They(Pakistan) close their eyes to wat a PM of a world power says about them...but jump up and down wen one of a thousand freekin newspapers puts something abt Kashmir in their front page.

lol wat to say.

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## KS

graphican said:


> Karthic Sri,
> 
> Was India willing to have it partitioned on the basis of religion the first time it happened? Plus your argument is "We won't do" doesn't help in addressing the problems on ground. Kashmiris are out on rage, Moists are out with their guns drawn and your sensible argument is *"Weather you like or not"*.. I wonder if you would do all the because Pakistan liked or not?



Yes India was not willing to undergo a first partition..but wich country in the world willingly undergoes one.? Did u do it willingly in East Pakistan...nope..we forced u to.

So till the time u reach a level when u can force us to do the same we will be in Kashmir and that time is not coming soon. that is the cold hard truth.

And Sir wat has happened so bad that we should go to the stage of "wether we like or not"

These protests have been happening for almost decades and it is not exactly a new phenomenon to us.

We know wen to play ,whom to play and how to play 

And yeah frankly one of the possible factors is that Pakistan supports Kashmiris and we think it is a prestige issue and willing to fight it out.



graphican said:


> Kashmirs are not asking to divide India "again". It was never a part of India and this is the basis of case put in United Nation, by India itself. Hope you would get foundations of the issue right this time.



Nope it was not a part of India as a political entity and by the logic none of the princrly state was a part of India as there was no such entity as India before 1947.

But Kashmir was always a part of Bharat thru ethnic,historic and religious lines.

And FYI we have got the foundation of the issue right all time.It is u guys living in the illusion of brotherhood


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## HariSeldon

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The terrorism in Pakistan is primarily the result of the Afghan conflict, and the US invasion of Afghanistan, and not the Kashmir conflict.



And are there basic premise for these 2 situations are diff? Aren't you involved yourself in both places in the name of Muslim brotherhood. 
Just because the theater was large, you got involved more deeply and so payback is also large. It was going to come sooner or later.
There is this saying in hindi
"Boye pade babool kai to phel kahan sai ho"

You tried to dig grave for others, now you are in pit yourself. 

Its the mindset that counts. There are 2 post in Flood thread. One is cartoon and other is stats for help from diff countries. 

You must have seen that. They speak loudly abt how all other muslim nations feel abt this brotherhood.

PK is still living the dream of Religious brotherhood while all other have moved forward.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And I fail to see how any Indian can morally and ethically not support the right to self-determination promised to Kashmiris by India herself.



Ohh....coming from you who only caused this suffering. If only you have not done what you have done in 47-48, they might be free today.
Hope ppl of Kashmir can realize who actually is culprit for there plight.

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## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> got any other sources with the same information? I was reviewing the site and it looks to be a hastily made blog; not a source for neutrally reported news



Why another source..? Just because it is not in conformity with ur version of "reality" it becomes a hastily made blog..?

Then wat abt the moin ansaris,ahmed Qureshis ,Christina palmers woot doing rounds here..?



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> just for the record, Kashmir is a Muslim majority region as you may be aware



Was not always...


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Karthic Sri said:


> Why another source..? Just because it is not in conformity with ur version of "reality" it becomes a hastily made blog..?



it is not even written in the format or style of a news report....it's pure bias and propaganda, and I don't subscribe to it.

find another source, then we can discuss in detail....otherwise, you're wasting your time



> Then wat abt the moin ansaris,ahmed Qureshis ,Christina palmers woot doing rounds here..?



don't turn the tables around and ask me that question...for the record, I can't remember when I ever used blogs such as the aforementioned and claimed them to be ''official sources''




> Was not always...



some left for economic reasons, we know who they are


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## az.ay

United Nations officially confirming that Indian troops are unauthorizedly using UN helmets in Kashmir:

*Youtube/watch?v=kEWnNDzsQm0*

(Moderator requested to put this video in the first post of thread)

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## SONOFAGUN

Jana said:


> and personnel in RAF are from Somalia
> 
> They are verymuch Indian, including people of Kashmiri origin. But they are Indian Police Force.....not Indian Army. D I have to teach you the difference between Police Force and Army.....or is the passions due to this period of little blood has made you blind altogether.
> 
> 
> 
> You should SHUT UP and Concentrate on bharti mentality you might be able to reform yourself


No I won't shut up my little ignorant sister. I know you dream of a different history while walking on the road of doom. Just a suggestion, you should actively advise your next generations after a further split...which is more likely now....that atleat they should manage theirleft ovr affairs to save what would have left by then..


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## gurjot

Jana said:


> and personnel in RAF are from Somalia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You should SHUT UP and Concentrate on bharti mentality you might be able to reform yourself



leave it jana ji


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## Xeric

az.ay said:


> United Nations officially confirming that Indian troops are unauthorizedly using UN helmets in Kashmir:
> 
> *Youtube/watch?v=kEWnNDzsQm0*
> 
> (Moderator requested to put this video in the first post of thread)



Allow me to help you:







P.S. Those still in denial can sniff some coffee now.

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## gurjot

xeric said:


> Allow me to help you:
> 
> YouTube - Indian troops using UN helmets in Kashmir
> 
> 
> P.S. Those still in denial can sniff some coffee now.



india knows what to do ?.who cares 4 un(unable).btw un is in u.sa.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

ran out of 'ammunition' i see

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## Vinod2070

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Yes, you keep saying that and the Kashmiris keep getting angrier. I am sure its is comforting to live in a world of delusions.



May be. I think otherwise.



> Nonsense. The Soviets have that blood on their hands, not Pakistan. *If you wish to blame Pakistan for the post Soviet violence and chaos, then you also have to blame the Americans.* Cherry picking history and concocting numbers to make fantastic claims does not make your arguments any more valid, it only illustrates how desperate you are to resort to such rhetorical tactics.



I think I should have avoided this. But anyway, now does it mean that you share twice the blame. After all you are a Pakistani and also an American Muslim! 



> Why not? People can multi-task, and at the moment the Kashmiris are physically expressing their disgust and anger with the Indian occupation and invaders, and therefore Pakistanis should do their bit to support them in that endeavor.



OK. Good to know.



> Commentators say many things, they are not seers - but what is true is the depravity of many Indians in cheering the occupation and oppression of people and the blatant violation of the promise to those people of self-determination. Puts the whole 'tolerant, secular India BS' in complete perspective doesn't it? *Bigots, hate-mongers and people stuck in a time warp seeking to avenge the 'Muslim invader' from hundreds of years ago.*



Not really. Making sure that those bigots and their followers (actually victims of Stockholm syndrome, victims assuming they were perpetrators) don't repeat the fine deeds of their heroes.

Ever again!


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## gurjot

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> ran out of 'ammunition' i see



no sir,u will c result in future.


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## Vinod2070

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The terrorism in Pakistan is primarily the result of the Afghan conflict, and the US invasion of Afghanistan, and not the Kashmir conflict.
> 
> And I fail to see how any Indian can morally and ethically not support the right to self-determination promised to Kashmiris by India herself.



Many of your generals and politicians blame it all on Kashmir. Musharraf did that, your Gul said so just yesterday in an interview to CNN.

In fact, he claimed that even Afghanistan was the result of Pakistan's Kashmir obsession.


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## sparklingway

gurjot said:


> india knows what to do ?.*who cares 4 un(unable).btw un is in u.sa.*



So you're suggesting that UN has no say and should have no say in the issues at global level? Don't bring UN-has-no-teeth arguments to justify your statement.

I'm not sure if this would have been the response if the UN were to hypothetically rule tomorrow that Kashmir is a part of India. 

Double standards.

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## Vinod2070

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How long did the British invade and occupy the sub-continent for?
> 
> India's aukat is no different.



Actually it is the reverse.

We have expelled the invader, be it British or the more barbaric one before them (that invader had been completely defeated in the 17th and 18th century before the British invader came).

No question of giving something to those who think they are inheritors of the invaders.

In fact, the supposed inheritors of invaders don't have time on their side now. They will likely lose everything if they can't reconcile to what they have. It was all a bonus and they should treasure that.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

gurjot said:


> no sir,u will c result in future.



seems your country is trying to push hard to gain the chair on the security council of this ''un(able)'' as you so dub it 

will your presence suddenly make it ''able'' 

are your troops so unable to quell existentialists that they like to wear the helmets?


it's unfortunate that you choose to turn a blind eye to the atrocities being committed in Kashmir while concurrently claiming that it is an ''integral part'' of hindustan next door...

for that to be the case, the people would have to support your presence there; which clearly, they aren't as we are seeing firsthand on the news


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## Abu Zolfiqar

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Also check out the NYT interactive, with some very touching pictures:
> 
> India Faces Broader Revolt in Kashmir - Slide Show - NYTimes.com



thanks for sharing....


RIP to Fida Nabi, and all the other Kashmiri victims of unwarranted, uncalled for suppression and violence by the occupying forces of the increasingly troublesome neighbour country.


best way to avenge their losses is to continue to spread the word about the grave injustices being committed.


Pakistan Nation, even during these difficult and testing times, must continue it's diplomatic and moral support to our Kashmiri bretheren.


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## gurjot

sparklingway said:


> So you're suggesting that UN has no say and should have no say in the issues at global level? Don't bring UN-has-no-teeth arguments to justify your statement.
> 
> I'm not sure if this would have been the response if the UN were to hypothetically rule tomorrow that Kashmir is a part of India.
> 
> Double standards.



no sir this was not my meaning.u can c the policies of the un.un seems to be a big failure.i think un is ruled by some powerful countries.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

gurjot said:


> y do they cover there faces.they know forces will grill them if identified



and they obviously don't want to get caught because it can endanger their families and friends as well


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## gurjot

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> seems your country is trying to push hard to gain the chair on the security council of this ''un(able)'' as you so dub it
> 
> will your presence suddenly make it ''able''
> 
> are your troops so unable to quell existentialists that they like to wear the helmets?
> 
> 
> it's unfortunate that you choose to turn a blind eye to the atrocities being committed in Kashmir while concurrently claiming that it is an ''integral part'' of hindustan next door...
> 
> for that to be the case, the people would have to support your presence there; which clearly, they aren't as we are seeing firsthand on the news



i dont know wat indian presence will do in un.on next point,sir no country allows it's part to be broken at any cost.i dont know abt pk,but india and indian considers as our state rather than even a disputed territory.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

IndianRobo said:


> trying for 60+ years, and the time hasnt come yet??? Well Once the kashmiris will Learn from there mistakes and Find out who the Real culprits are... Lol... Lets wait and see...



one would have to be blind and autistic to not realize that they already have learned.....who are Kashmiri existentialists confronting right now


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## sparklingway

gurjot said:


> no sir this was not my meaning.u can c the policies of the un.un seems to be a big failure.i think un is ruled by some powerful countries.



And that is exactly the UN-has-no-teeth argument.

Indian troops, regardless of their institutional affiliation have been found using UN marked helmets and equipment. They were not peacekeepers or from UNPROFOR.

Nothing to defend here.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

_India has consistently rebuffed any attempt at outside mediation or diplomatic entreaties, including efforts by the United States. The intransigence has left Kashmiris empty-handed. _







_"I used to cover the protests," said Mr. Nabi, a news photographer. "But now I will join them."_






_Indian officials have tried to portray Kashmir's stone-throwing youths as illiterate pawns of jihadist forces across the Pakistan border, but many of the protesters are well educated. *One young man who regularly joins protests and goes by the nom de guerre Khalid Khan, left, has an M.B.A. and a well-paying job*. _


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## Abu Zolfiqar

gurjot said:


> i dont know wat indian presence will do in un.on next point,sir no country allows it's part to be broken at any cost.i dont know abt pk,but india and indian considers as our state *rather than even a disputed territory*.



how has that helped?


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## gurjot

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> how has that helped?



it will come to know when talks of kashmir independence by india will be in the news,then u will be able to c help.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

are you in favour of an independent Kashmir?


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## gurjot

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> are you in favour of an independent Kashmir?



i m in favour of integrity of india at all cost.


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## Abasin Turi

amit30 said:


> bas 200-400 sal bad .. thoda wait karo



no see the problem is we cant wait.. do it ASAP. else new batch of ajmal kasab is on its way


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## ps80

No denial...it's a matter between India and the UN...was likely a mistake...rectified....other parties please stay out...thanks!


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## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> it is not even written in the format or style of a news report....it's pure bias and propaganda, and I don't subscribe to it.
> 
> find another source, then we can discuss in detail....otherwise, you're wasting your time



thats wat I said...just because some news doesnt confor to ur views It doesnt become propaganda.




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> don't turn the tables around and ask me that question...for the record, I can't remember when I ever used blogs such as the aforementioned and claimed them to be ''official sources''



Its not that u used or me used.Many Pakistani posters give that sources and I have seen discussion on them going for 20 pages without any senior or elite Pakistani members claiming that these sources are unreliable even though they know it is.This guys is just returning the favour.




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> some left for *economic reasons*, we know who they are



How come u write this with such a straight face. huh.

Ethinic cleansing of the Hindu Pandits and their flight away to safety becomes migrating for economic reasons.?


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## gurjot

Abasin Turi said:


> no see the problem is we cant wait.. do it ASAP. else new batch of ajmal kasab is on its way



we have made enough arrangements 4 those kasabs.arabian sea is large enough to contain those kasabs.thk god u admitted.


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## Agnostic_Indian

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> _India has consistently rebuffed any attempt at outside mediation or diplomatic entreaties, including efforts by the United States. The intransigence has left Kashmiris empty-handed. _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"I used to cover the protests," said Mr. Nabi, a news photographer. "But now I will join them."_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Indian officials have tried to portray Kashmir's stone-throwing youths as illiterate pawns of jihadist forces across the Pakistan border, but many of the protesters are well educated. *One young man who regularly joins protests and goes by the nom de guerre Khalid Khan, left, has an M.B.A. and a well-paying job*. _



Anybody can protest peacefuly including mba holders only thing is they must do it peacefuly.there is a greater majority who are happy with the governence and are busy with their daily lives. Police are compelled to use force when protest turns into violance which again will lead to collateral damage and this cycle continues. 
so don't expect flowers in return of stone. And keep kids away from the business.

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## parasite

-------------


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## Mirza Jatt

Abasin Turi said:


> no see the problem is we cant wait.. do it ASAP. else new batch of ajmal kasab is on its way



I think thats a good gesture from you..please send the next Kasab batch...last time we were on the brink of war..this time lets have a war in real...lets solve it for once and for all.

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## KS

Abasin Turi said:


> no see the problem is we cant wait.. do it ASAP. else new batch of *ajmal kasab* is on its way



and then they wonder y DC calls them as he calls them.

btw http://www.defence.pk/forums/forum-information/57293-zero-tolerance-policy-support-terrorism.html


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## parasite

saad445566 said:


> *Azad karo Kashmir ko!*



It's a gift for you......why dont you come and take it......


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ps80 said:


> No denial...it's a matter between India and the UN...was likely a mistake...rectified....other parties please stay out...thanks!



Which other parties?
If ur talkin about Pakistan... FORGET IT


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## dabong1

Indian Jatt said:


> lets solve it for once and for all.



Like the indian army did to the sikhs


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## Abasin Turi

amit30 said:


> bas 200-400 sal bad .. thoda wait karo





gurjot said:


> we have made enough arrangements 4 those kasabs.arabian sea is large enough to contain those kasabs.thk god u admitted.


 
ahh usually i dun talk to indians.. but you guys are pushing me.. so you know umm umm where was i.. yes.... i PROUDLY admit that those were send by ISI and you guys did nothing bout it..  
too baaaddd for indiannnnnnnnooooooossss


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## dabong1

IndianRobo said:


> trying for 60+ years, and the time hasnt come yet??? Well Once the kashmiris will Learn from there mistakes and Find out who the Real culprits are... Lol... Lets wait and see...



I am kashmiri and i know fully well that the culprit is india.


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## Abasin Turi

Indian Jatt said:


> I think thats a good gesture from you..please send the next Kasab batch...last time we were on the brink of war..this time lets have a war in real...lets solve it for once and for all.



sure we also want to put A FULL STOP to it.. but you guys are soo scared to fight.. so grow some balls and face us on borders.. i always find you dancing and crying on indian tv.. why do u guys dance too much btw.  
and yes will you guys dance on the borders too..


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## dabong1

parasite said:


> I think one more adventure against INDIA and ur country will restart from where it began in 1947......Such stupid and ill conceived notions have already caused your dearly nation a lot.....and if your economy sinks further it may not be able to sustain your country.....



The doomsday scenario for pakistans economy has been just that a "scenario" and nothing else.........india thought pakistan would collapse after a few weeks and come running back to india and 60 odd years on where still here.

---------- Post added at 09:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:09 PM ----------




Karthic Sri said:


> Y just diplomatic and moral spport...u can even officially re-start ur "AK" support.Nothings gonna change mate.



Dont worry we will when the times right.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Karthic Sri said:


> thats wat I said...just because some news doesnt confor to ur views It doesnt become propaganda.



the source you posted is biased propaganda; no other news agencies ran the story for me to cross-check

waste of time to talk about it






> Its not that u used or me used.Many Pakistani posters give that sources and I have seen discussion on them going for 20 pages without any senior or elite Pakistani members claiming that these sources are unreliable even though they know it is.This guys is just returning the favour.



the job of professional news agencies is to report the news; not settle scores or ''return favours''




> How come u write this with such a straight face. huh.
> 
> Ethinic cleansing of the Hindu Pandits and their flight away to safety becomes migrating for economic reasons.?



today, Kashmiris live in conditions that would warrant similar migrations; however they are holding their ground because their loyalties are to KASHMIR

Pakistan nation will always provide moral and diplomatic support to them as needed, despite the difficult period our country is undergoing.


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## gurjot

Abasin Turi said:


> ahh usually i dun talk to indians.. but you guys are pushing me.. so you know umm umm where was i.. yes.... i PROUDLY admit that those were send by ISI and you guys did nothing bout it..
> too baaaddd for indiannnnnnnnooooooossss



ur isi got xposed.when our agencies do something,they dont lleave the proof.if they leave proof,no one have guts to prove them in whole world.i think u understood wat i mean.so plz now dont derail thread.


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## nanmun

dabong1 said:


> I am kashmiri and i know fully well that the culprit is india.



Awesome. Since you know fully well, there's no need to discuss it further. 

Kashmir issue is more complex than what it is. Autonomy, Independence, merging with Pakistan - all three have different meanings. Given the motivation of people to join Pakistan shows the role of Pakistan in instigating protesters.

Masses are very easy to emotionally agitate them.

Anyways, I expect these protests to subside soon as people realize that they are not going to ruin their livelihoods and their economy for something that is not easy to achieve.


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## Abasin Turi

gurjot said:


> ur isi got xposed.when our agencies do something,they dont lleave the proof.if they leave proof,no one have guts to prove them in whole world.i think u understood wat i mean.so plz now dont derail thread.



you asked for it.. and you started it. so you know the blames on you .. 
btw do change your agency's name .. RAW means not prepared ..


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## KS

dabong1 said:


> Like the indian army did to the sikhs



By Sikhs u mean these ppl who have dedicated their life for my nation...?









*FAIL*....Better luck next time...

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## mohan goyal

Abasin Turi said:


> sure we also want to put A FULL STOP to it.. but you guys are soo scared to fight.. so grow some balls and face us on borders.. i always find you dancing and crying on indian tv.. why do u guys dance too much btw.
> and yes will you guys dance on the borders too..


guys dont feed him..he is a comedian on radio pakistan, delhi..lol


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## gurjot

mohan goyal said:


> guys dont feed him..he is a comedian on radio pakistan, delhi..lol



zion hamid like comedian


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## ps80

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Which other parties?
> If ur talkin about Pakistan... FORGET IT



Bhai jaan, ye UN helmet issue ko khatam karne ke liye kaha tha - stay out... and I am not talking of the Kashmir issue here...so let's move on to some other 'important' thread...Thanks

Btw, Ramadan Mubarak!!


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## Abasin Turi

mohan goyal said:


> guys dont feed him..he is a comedian on radio pakistan, delhi..lol



yes am that comedian who exposes indians  
btw next on my track is the only singer in INDIA atif Aslam.. yayeee........  
oh he;s pakistani too ... too bad you guys dun have any bhartiyaa singers :O


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## Abasin Turi

gurjot said:


> zion hamid like comedian



yes the one you scared of..  
sheesh am so famous.. 
kashmir banay ga pakistan. dekhtay rehna tum hindustan  
next track is from rahat fetah ali khan.. oh he's from pakistan tooo  
awwwwwwwwwww too bad indians dun have any singers


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Karthic Sri said:


> Y just diplomatic and moral spport...u can even officially re-start ur "AK" support.Nothings gonna change mate.



Azad Kashmir already has our support; it's a fairly autonomous region as our policy is to treat Kashmir as disputed territory

the masses there are with us


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## gurjot

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Azad Kashmir already has our support; it's a fairly autonomous region as our policy is to treat Kashmir as disputed territory
> 
> the masses there are with us



no worry abt masses


----------



## Abasin Turi

gurjot said:


> i m in favour of integrity of india at all cost.



It would be clever for the Indian planners to start thinking of a free Kashmir and how they will deal with such a nation, as they too have lost Pakistan not that many decades back (many mothers and fathers was born an Indian and died a Pakistani!). Had the Indian Politicans thought and planned for a free Pakistan they would not have had so many problems as they face today!


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## linkinpark

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Azad Kashmir already has our support; it's a fairly autonomous region as our policy is to treat Kashmir as disputed territory
> 
> the masses there are with us



AZK is a disputed territory, autonomy or no autonomy.


----------



## ps80

Abasin Turi said:


> yes the one you scared of..
> sheesh am so famous..
> kashmir banay ga pakistan. dekhtay rehna tum hindustan
> next track is from rahat fetah ali khan.. oh he's from pakistan tooo
> awwwwwwwwwww too bad indians dun have any singers



Any singers??...thats a complete wrong statement mate...Bollywood & Kollywood (south Indian movie industry?) are full of singers...specially these days there are more singers than beggars...every third fellow wants to be a filmstar or a singer


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## indiaworldpower

dabong1 said:


> I am kashmiri and i know fully well that the culprit is india.



Do you really think that India will let go Kashmir? In my view, never. Kashmir can get autonomy but never Independence. 

All security forces cannot be withdrawn as there is pakisan's attack there with the support of local seperatists. Once Indian army looses its positions, it would be tough to get it back.


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## Malik Usman

Karthic Sri said:


> I too support the Kashmiri's demand on this one..
> 
> Why should an international that too a largely impotent organisation be allowed to come inbetween the internal affairs of India.
> 
> Withdraw the helmets ASAP.




Oh...from where u got the idea this is india's internal affair.....
According to UN resolution in 1948 Kashmir is disputed area and Kashmiris will decide that wheather they want to Live Pakistan or Free.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Theres no debating and point scoring with the hardcore hypocrite indians , as the ground reality speaks for itself quite loud and clear.
I have my hopes for the Kashmiri Freedom struggle, the naxals may help the Kashmiri freedom cause by diverging the Focus, Certinly out of nowhere India is now facing grave challenges, i hope the GOI finally prepares itself to take a decision on Kashmir. Despite all the resources india Put down in Kashmir it hasnt been able to cater any noteable feat which might be categorized as success.Theres no way out except to resolve Kashmir as the Kashmiris demand. The sooner the GOI realizes it the better it will be..!!!!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Deadly Clashes Continue in Kashmir​*
By LYDIA POLGREEN

NEW DELHI  Kashmiris demanding independence from India flooded the streets in protests across the troubled region Friday, clashing repeatedly with the police and Indian security forces, the authorities said.

Four people were killed, bringing the number of dead to at least 55 since the unrest began in June.

Kashmiris have been marching in increasing numbers, and in increasingly bold defiance of strictly enforced curfews, in an effort to force India to withdraw its troops from the disputed region, which is claimed by India and Pakistan. It was the first Friday of the Ramadan fasting month, and many people in the mostly Muslim region tried to visit mosques to offer prayers.

The clashes dampened hopes that Ramadan, during which Muslims neither drink nor eat from sunrise to sunset, would cool the simmering anger here. The protests, which began when a teenager was killed by a tear gas shell in June, have spiraled into a broad, unarmed popular revolt that Indian authorities have struggled to control.

Poorly trained and equipped security forces use live ammunition to fend off angry, stone-throwing crowds. The resulting deaths have only fed the protests, and the state government has called in more troops to try to wrest control of the streets.

On Friday police officers fired on a crowd of protesters in the town of Pattan, and a 58-year-old man died of injuries sustained there. In the separatist stronghold of Sopore a large crowd gathered after Friday Prayers and threw stones at a camp occupied by Indian paramilitaries, who opened fire, killing two people, the police said. In Kupwara, a local official ordered the police to open fire on a crowd of 2,000 people who had gathered in defiance of curfew, police officials said. A 23-year-old man died of a gunshot wound there.

In Srinagar, the regional capital, officials did not impose curfew, and Friday Prayers were held at the historic, pagoda-shaped mosque for the first time in six weeks. Officials had feared violence if they tried to prevent worshipers from visiting the mosque.

Violent protests have broken out in Kashmir for the last three summers but this year they have taken on a new intensity as the protesters have become less willing to obey the curfew and more willing to confront the security forces.

Indian paramilitary forces have remained in the region since they were deployed to fight a brutal, Pakistan-backed insurgency that swept across the Kashmir Valley in the 1990s. They operate under special laws that shield them from prosecution, and many Kashmiris say that this has led to many human rights violations in the region.

Hari Kumar contributed reporting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/world/asia/14kashmir.html?_r=1&ref=world


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Vinod2070 said:


> Actually it is the reverse.
> 
> We have expelled the invader, be it British or the more barbaric one before them (that invader had been completely defeated in the 17th and 18th century before the British invader came).
> 
> No question of giving something to those who think they are inheritors of the invaders.
> 
> In fact, the supposed inheritors of invaders don't have time on their side now. They will likely lose everything if they can't reconcile to what they have. It was all a bonus and they should treasure that.


There is no 'we' there. The people repelling attacking forces were individual Kings and emperors, not Indians, and it was their fiefdoms carved out through war and conquest themselves that were on the line. Maurya was no less an invader than Ghauri. Being Bengali does not given him any rights over the rest of ethnic groups, nor does it make him 'part of them', any more than the Afghan's, Central Asians and Arabs had any sort of rights over the non-Afghan's and non-Arabs etc. The same is true of any non-Punjabis, non-Pakhtuns and non-Sindhis who occupied Punjab, Sindh and the Pakhtuns (and you can extend that to any ethnic group in South Asia) - whether those conquering them came from East or West.

So too is India the invader in Kashmir, as it would be the invader if it were to occupy any part of Pakistan - mythological ideas of some great 'Akhand Bharat' do not make them fact. The fact is that the subcontinent is comprised of diverse ethnic groups, races, cultures and peoples, and the existence of the modern States of India and Pakistan is solely because certain ethnic groups and peoples chose to enter into a compact to form larger nations. The Kashmiris have not given India any agreement towards that compact of nationhood, since the mechanism promised them to arrive at that compact, plebiscite, has been denied them. So long as that compact is unfulfilled, India is the invader and occupier.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Karthic Sri said:


> *British = apples,Indian = Oranges.*
> 
> British came in ships in the hundreds to a land they had no connection whatsoever and left only after a steel begging bowl was given in ther hands after WWII.
> 
> On the contrary *we r in a land that has centuries old deep ethnic,historic and religious significance/connection to us*.
> 
> And a begging bowl is not coming into our hands any time soon.



That is a fallacious argument, and here is why - Just because you claim a 'connection' to Pakistan or Afghanistan would not justify an Indian invasion and occupation of the lands of Pakistan and Afghanistan, if against the wishes of the people of those lands. And just as India cannot claim 'connections' as justification for invading Afghanistan and Pakistan, it cannot claim 'connections' to justify the invasion and occupation of Kashmir. The people of Kashmir were promised a plebiscite to finalize (or not) a compact of nationhood with the rest of the Indian State - that promise was violated and the territory remains forcibly invaded and occupied, and the people of Kashmir are angry about that occupation and disgusted with India.

At its core therefore the comparison to the British invasion and occupation of the subcontinent is apt - since in both cases a people were occupied against their will. In the case of the British the justification was the 'glory of the British Empire' in the case of the Indians it is just an immoral a justification of 'a billion Indians refuse to allow millions their freedom'.

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## gubbi

AM, your whole premise of a plebiscite is wrong. It was Pakistan who initiated this mess by invading the then independent state of Kashmir on flimsy pretext. No point in trying to beat around the bush by bringing in numerous UN resolutions and plebiscite. You initiated the mess. Period.

Your second point questioning India's existence as an entity before 1947 is downright fallacious and if thats what you want to believe to sleep properly, be my guest. 

Btw, check out this thread...might help you rectify your delusion:

*Life in Indian cities in Colonial Era/20th century-in Pics*

*And this post*:

Check out the dates/year and the word India!


gubbi said:


> Seriously, what kind of history do you guys follow over there in Pakistan? You all definitely do live in this very universe, dont you?
> 
> I should point you to this particular thread:
> *Life in Indian cities in Colonial Era/20th century-in Pics*
> 
> Check out the pictures and other data which suggests otherwise to the delusion that you all so desperately hold on to.
> 
> Check these out:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your state, per se, did not exist before 1947, the concept of Pakistan wasnt there till the late 1930's. There are many areas even today, which Pakistan claims as its sovereign territories and yet the govt of the day (both civilian and military) cannot exercise its writ in many such areas. You desperately seek an identity and yet think that your delusions would help erase one of the humanity's richest civilizations/identities? How pathetic!
> 
> All those who argue that India did not exist prior to 1947 are plain delusional! Lol. Go try to find and establish your own identity, reason d'etre for existence and then comment on others'.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> AM, your whole premise of a plebiscite is wrong. It was Pakistan who initiated this mess by invading the then independent state of Kashmir on flimsy pretext. No point in trying to beat around the bush by bringing in numerous UN resolutions and plebiscite. You initiated the mess. Period.


Nonsense - India invaded and annexed the State of Junagadh months after the ruler had acceded to Pakistan, and demanded Pakistan reject the accession the entire time. So India has no standing on the basis of 'accession'. And the UN resolutions calling for plebiscite and the Indian promise of promise of plebiscite came after the Kashmiri revolt against the Mahrajah and the subsequent Pakistani intervention, so that intervention cannot be claimed as reason to justify a violation of a commitment to plebiscite domestically and on an international forum.


> Your second point questioning India's existence as an entity before 1947 is downright fallacious and if thats what you want to believe to sleep properly, be my guest.
> 
> Btw, check out this thread...might help you rectify your delusion:
> 
> 
> Check out the dates/year and the word India!


Before 1947 it existed as a British Colony, unified by the British from a motley of Kingdoms, Princely States fiefdoms. It was never a unified independent nation-State, and that is fact.

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## Vinod2070

Asim Aquil said:


> Finally NYT notices Kashmir. Indian delusions and the delusions it had successfully sold to the world are now quickly unraveling. Kashmiris want Azadi, *nothing can stop them now.*



Just because NYT has published a report! 

Have they never published a report on Kashmir?

How many reports have they published of the impending collapse of Pakistan and nukes falling to Taliban? Has it happened yet.

"Doobte ko tinake ka sahara". People will clutch at any straw and we understand.

Just don't get too disappointed again.


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## Vinod2070

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Nonsense - India invaded and annexed the State of Junagadh months after the ruler had acceded to Pakistan, and demanded Pakistan reject the accession the entire time. So India has no standing on the basis of 'accession'. And the UN resolutions calling for plebiscite and the Indian promise of promise of plebiscite came after the Kashmiri revolt against the Mahrajah and the subsequent Pakistani intervention, so that intervention cannot be claimed as reason to justify a violation of a commitment to plebiscite domestically and on an international forum.



Who was the nawab of Junagarh? Was he a native or foreigner despot whose ancestors invaded at some point?

Why should India allow that despot (as also the Hyderbad Nizam) to continue ruling Indians long after they had no power to do that?

They came by force and they had to be kicked out by force. Nothing wrong in it. If only they were treated much better than what they (and their ancestors) had done here.



> Before 1947 it existed as a British Colony, unified by the British from a motley of Kingdoms, Princely States fiefdoms. It was never a unified independent nation-State, and that is fact.



India had been unified at several times under great Indian kings and there was the great naqba (I hope you know this word, else ask the Palestinians what they call their 1948 events) when despotic, genocidal, goons and maniacs were let loose. Those invaders plundered, killed, raped and enslaved for a few hundred years (out of the 10,000 years old history of this land).

Obviously some weaklings sold themselves to these goons for fear or favor and continue to be their apologists. The rest of us don't miss the wood for the trees. Or to be more specific, those 500 odd years can't negate the 10,000 year common civilization.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Why silence over Kashmir speaks volumes*​
_Bloody protests against military rule get little coverage, while India maintains its reputation_

Pankaj Mishra
The Guardian, Saturday 14 August 2010


Once known for its extraordinary beauty, the valley of Kashmir now hosts the biggest, bloodiest and also the most obscure military occupation in the world. With more than 80,000 people dead in an anti-India insurgency backed by Pakistan, the killings fields of Kashmir dwarf those of Palestine and Tibet. In addition to the everyday regime of arbitrary arrests, curfews, raids, and checkpoints enforced by nearly 700,000 Indian soldiers, the valley's 4 million Muslims are exposed to extra-judicial execution, rape and torture, with such barbaric variations as live electric wires inserted into penises.

Why then does the immense human suffering of Kashmir occupy such an imperceptible place in our moral imagination? After all, the Kashmiris demanding release from the degradations of military rule couldn't be louder and clearer. India has contained the insurgency provoked in 1989 by its rigged elections and massacres of protestors. The hundreds of thousands of demonstrators that fill the streets of Kashmir's cities today are overwhelmingly young, many in their teens, and armed with nothing more lethal than stones. Yet the Indian state seems determined to strangle their voices as it did of the old one. Already this summer, soldiers have shot dead more than 50 protestors, most of them teenagers.

The New York Times this week described the protests as a comprehensive"intifada-like popular revolt". They indeed have a broader mass base than the Green Movement does in Iran. But no colour-coded revolution is heralded in Kashmir by western commentators. The BBC and CNN don't endlessly loop clips of little children being shot in the head by Indian soldiers. Bloggers and tweeters in the west fail to keep a virtual vigil by the side of the dead and the wounded. No sooner than his office issued it last week, the UN secretary general, Ban Ki-moon, hastened to retract a feeble statement expressing concern over the situation in Kashmir.

Kashmiri Muslims are understandably bitter. As Parvaiz Bukhari, a journalist, said early this week the stones flung randomly by protestors have become "the voice of a neglected people" convinced that the world deliberately ignores their plight. The veteran Kashmiri journalist Masood Hussain confessed to the near-total futility of his painstaking auditing of atrocity over two decades. For Kashmir has turned out to be a "great suppression story".

The cautiousness  or timidity  of western politicians is easy to understand. Apart from appearing as a lifeline to flailing western economies, India is a counterweight, at least in the fantasies of western strategists, to China. A month before his election, Barack Obama declared that resolving the "Kashmir crisis" was among his "critical tasks". Since then, the US president hasn't uttered a word about this ur-crisis that has seeded all major conflicts in south Asia. David Cameron was advised a similar strategic public silence on his visit to India last fortnight.

Those western pundits who are always ready to assault illiberal regimes worldwide on behalf of democracy ought not to be so tongue-tied. Here is a well-educated Muslim population, heterodox and pluralist by tradition and temperament, and desperate for genuine democracy. However, intellectuals preoccupied by transcendent, nearly mystical, battles between civilization and barbarism tend to assume that "democratic" India, a natural ally of the "liberal" west, must be doing the right thing in Kashmir, ie fighting "Islamofascism". Thus Christopher Hitchens could call upon the Bush administration to establish a military alliance with "the other great multi-ethnic democracy under attack from Muslim fascism" even as an elected Hindu nationalist government stood accused of organising a pogrom that killed more than 2,000 Muslims in the Indian state of Gujarat.

Electoral democracy in multi-ethnic, multi-religious India is one of the modern era's most utopian political experiments, increasingly vulnerable to malfunction and failure, and, consequently, to militant disaffection and state terror. But then the west's new masters of humanitarian war, busy painting grand ideological struggles on broad, rolling canvases, are prone to miss the human position of suffering and injustice.

Indian writers and intellectuals, who witnessed the corrosion of India's secular democracy by Hindu supremacists, seem better acquainted with the messy realities concealed by stirring abstractions. But on Kashmir they often appear as evasive as their Chinese peers are on Tibet. They may have justifiably recoiled from the fundamentalist and brutish aspect of the revolt in the valley. But the massive non-violent protests in Kashmir since 2008 haven't released a flood of pent-up sympathy from them.

Few people are as well positioned as the much-revered Amartya Sen to provoke national introspection on Kashmir. Indeed, no one can fault Sen's commitment to justice for the poor and defenceless in India. Yet Sen relegates Kashmir to footnotes in both of his recent books: The Argumentative Indian and Identity and Violence.

Certainly, as Arundhati Roy's recent writings prove, anyone initiating a frank discussion on Kashmir risks a storm of vituperation from the Indian understudies of Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity. The choleric TV anchors, partisan journalists and opinion-mongers of India's corporate media routinely amplify the falsehoods and deceptions of Indian intelligence agencies in Kashmir. Blaming Pakistan or Islamic fundamentalists, as the Economist pointed out last week, has "got much harder" for the Indian government, which, has "long denied the great extent to which Kashmiris want rid of India". Nevertheless, it tries; and, as the political philosopher Pratap Bhanu Mehta, one of the few fair-minded commentators on this subject, points out, the Indian media now acts in concert with the government "to deny any legitimacy to protests in Kashmir".

This effective censorship reassures those Indians anxious not to let mutinous Kashmiris sully the currently garish notions of India as an "economic powerhouse" and "vibrant democracy"  the calling cards with which Indian elites apply for membership to the exclusive clubs of the west. In Kashmir, however, the net effect is deeper anger and alienation. As Bukhari puts it, Kashmiris hold India's journalists as responsible as its politicians for "muzzling and misinterpreting" them.

"The promise," Mehta writes, "of a liberal India is slowly dying". For Kashmiris this promise has proved as hollow as that of the fundamentalist Islam exported by Pakistan. Liberated from political deceptions, the young men on the streets of Kashmir today seem simply to want to express their hatred of the state's impersonal brutality, and to commemorate lives freshly ruined by it. As the Kashmiri writer Basharat Peer wrote this week in a moving Letter to an Unknown Indian, Indian journalists might edit out the "faces of the murdered boys", and "their grieving fathers"; they may not show "the video of a woman in Anantnag, washing the blood of the boys who were killed outside her house". But "Kashmir sees the unedited Kashmir."

And it remembers. "Like many other Kashmiris," Peer writes, "I have been in silence, committing to memory the deed, the date." Apart from the youth on the streets, there are also those with their noses in books, or pressed against window bars. Soon this generation will make its way into the world with its private traumas. Life under political oppression has begun to yield, in the slow bitter way it does, a rich intellectual and artistic harvest: Peer's memoir Curfewed Night will be followed early next year by a novel by Waheed Mirza. There are more works to come; Kashmiris will increasingly speak for themselves. One can only hope that their voices will finally penetrate our indifference and even occasionally prick our conscience.

Why silence over Kashmir speaks volumes | From the Guardian | The Guardian


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## Vinod2070

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> There is no 'we' there. The people repelling attacking forces were individual Kings and emperors, not Indians, and it was their fiefdoms carved out through war and conquest themselves that were on the line. Maurya was no less an invader than Ghauri. Being Bengali does not given him any rights over the rest of ethnic groups, nor does it make him 'part of them', any more than the Afghan's, Central Asians and Arabs had any sort of rights over the non-Afghan's and non-Arabs etc. The same is true of any non-Punjabis, non-Pakhtuns and non-Sindhis who occupied Punjab, Sindh and the Pakhtuns (and you can extend that to any ethnic group in South Asia) - whether those conquering them came from East or West.



Read the book "The story of civilization" and more specifically "Our Oriental heritage". Read about the Muslim invasion of India and what it entailed. It was all chronicled by the historians who accompanied the invaders.

That will tell you the difference if you have the eyes to see it.



> So too is India the invader in Kashmir, as it would be the invader if it were to occupy any part of Pakistan - mythological ideas of some great 'Akhand Bharat' do not make them fact. The fact is that the subcontinent is comprised of diverse ethnic groups, races, cultures and peoples, and the existence of the modern States of India and Pakistan is solely because certain ethnic groups and peoples chose to enter into a compact to form larger nations. The Kashmiris have not given India any agreement towards that compact of nationhood, since the mechanism promised them to arrive at that compact, plebiscite, has been denied them. So long as that compact is unfulfilled, India is the invader and occupier



Ever thought why it is only the convert like you who deny this history, even though you guys have started claiming IVC for the last few years (while trying to deny the obvious links it has to the Indian civilization even now).

I would suggest you read V.S. Naipaul's excellent book "Among the believers". I read it some time back and it describes this phenomenon very well. I have to admire the perceptive power and observation of the genius.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

linkinpark said:


> only 2% of Indian J&K want's to join Pakistan. So, Pakistan can forget about Kashmir's accession to it.



That will be determined in a plebiscite - we are willing to let the Kashmiris decide, are you?


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## SekrutYakhni

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That will be determined in a plebiscite - we are willing to let the Kashmiris decide, are you?



They aren't ready at all. Few good men died when patriotism took over Indian society. 


*FREE KASHMIR!!!!!!!!*


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Indian army kill more innocent Kashmiris in Occupied Kashmir ​*
Written by KMS 
Friday, 13 August 2010 13:43 








Srinagar, August 13 2010: More Kashmiris got killed by Indian forces in last 24 hours in Occupied Kashmir.

A 10th class student was martyred and a 45-year-old woman was injured when Indian Army opened fire on a group of people coming out of a mosque after offering Fajr prayers at Trehgam town in Kupwara district.

As people were coming out of a mosque at Mirpora mohalla in Trehgam town, CRPF troops opened fire on them in which a boy, Mudasir Ahmed Zargar was killed and a 45-year-old woman, Jana Begum was injured. After the boy's killing, tension has gripped the entire area and people are trying to defy curfew while curfew is in place in Kupwara and Handwara towns as well.



After a one day break of continued curfew and restrictions in Kashmir valley on Thursday, the people of Valley woke up to another day of undeclared curfew and restrictions on Friday. Indian forces have been deployed to thwart the Jamia Masjid Chalo and other protest marches in the occupied territory.

Authorities have also launched a massive crackdown across Chinab valley and Jammu region against those who recently took part in the peaceful protest demonstrations to denounce civilian killings in the Occupied Kashmir.

Dozens of people, mostly students including medical students have been arrested during college and house raids in past few days. Most of the students arrested during the raids belonged to Acharya Shri Chander College of Medical Sciences (ASCOMS) Sidhra. The students parents said that their wards were being falsely implicated and the authorities were spoiling the career of Muslim students in the region.

Meanwhile, the Chairperson of Muslim Khawteen Markaz, Yasmeen Raja in a statement, while expressing concern over the attitude of authorities with Kashmiri students, has strongly condemned the arrest of innocent youth and students in Jammu region.

The Executive Director of Kashmir Centre London, Professor Nazir Ahmed Shawl, has said that the UK-based Kashmiris will observe Indias Independence Day (August 15) as Black Day.

Professor Nazir Ahmed Shawl, in a statement issued in London, said that Kashmiris would hold a demonstration outside the Indian High Commission in London. He said, It is the most appropriate time when world conscience should respond to existing pain in the occupied territory and stand by the side of justice, civil liberties and basic human rights.

Professor Nazir Ahmed Shawl has called upon all the Kashmiris living in the United Kingdom to massively join the demonstration to express solidarity with the suffering brethren in occupied Kashmir.

Indian army kill more innocent Kashmiris in Occupied Kashmir


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Vinod2070 said:


> Who was the nawab of Junagarh? Was he a native or foreigner despot whose ancestors invaded at some point?
> 
> Why should India allow that despot (as also the Hyderbad Nizam) to continue ruling Indians long after they had no power to do that?
> 
> They came by force and they had to be kicked out by force. Nothing wrong in it. If only they were treated much better than what they (and their ancestors) had done here.


As was the Maharajah of Kashmir a despot against whom the Kashmiris had risen up in revolt long before Pakistan intervened. Since India chose to apply the principle of 'popular sentiment' in refusing to recognize the wishes of the rulers of Junagadh and Hyderabad, its refusal to do so in Kashmir is quite patently hypocritical and the major cause for resentment amongst Kashmiris.


> India had been unified at several times under great Indian kings and there was the great naqba (I hope you know this word, else ask the Palestinians what they call their 1948 events) when despotic, genocidal, goons and maniacs were let loose. Those invaders plundered, killed, raped and enslaved for a few hundred years (out of the 10,000 years old history of this land).
> 
> Obviously some weaklings sold themselves to these goons for fear or favor and continue to be their apologists. The rest of us don't miss the wood for the trees. Or to be more specific, those 500 odd years can't negate the 10,000 year common civilization.


It was united under Empires and Kingdoms, much like Ghauri and the other Central Asians did as well. That does not make India a unified nation in the past and it does not make Ghauri and the other Muslim conquerors any more 'invaders' than Maurya and the other invaders who arrived from the East instead of the South, West and North.

Arbitrarily cherry picking who is an invader and who is not is completely dishonest. For a Punjabi or Sindhi any non-Punjabi or Sindhi is an invader, not just the Afghans.


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## IndianRobo

More innocents throw stones... Well if only they could be termed Innocents... Iam against Killing them... Return those thrown stones in a Fashioned manner

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Vinod2070 said:


> Read the book "The story of civilization" and more specifically "Our Oriental heritage". Read about the Muslim invasion of India and what it entailed. It was all chronicled by the historians who accompanied the invaders.
> 
> That will tell you the difference if you have the eyes to see it.


To see what? Invasions of various regions have occurred throughout history, and they occurred in the territories and Kingdoms comprising the region of India as well. An Arab is no more or less an invader for Punjabis than is a Bengalis or Maratha.



> Ever thought why it is only the convert like you who deny this history, even though you guys have started claiming IVC for the last few years (while trying to deny the obvious links it has to the Indian civilization even now).
> 
> I would suggest you read V.S. Naipaul's excellent book "Among the believers". I read it some time back and it describes this phenomenon very well. I have to admire the perceptive power and observation of the genius.


The IVC was always claimed by Pakistan, just required more people to get in touch with our history and take an interest in it.

There is no such thing as an 'Indian civilization', except that invented by Indian hacks and their apologists.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Phone Cameras Fuel Kashmirs Intifada​*
By ROBERT MACKEY






Graphic images of Kashmirs bloody protests have been remixed to the beat of the American rap song Stone in My Hand and posted online to inspire resistance to Indian rule of the disputed province.

Updated |1:40 p.m. As my colleague Lydia Polgreen reports, in Kashmir, India faces an intifada-like popular revolt against the Indian military presence, in which images of stone-throwing youth are celebrated on Facebook pages and in YouTube videos.

As was the case in Iran, short video clips of protests by Kashmirs mainly Muslim population and clashes with Indian security forces, often shot on cellphones and passed from device to device or posted on the Web, have been used by activists to document their own struggle and to inspire more resistance.

In a documentary for the BBC World Service last year on the role of new media in Kashmirs revolt, Suvojit Bagchi explained that in 2008 Kashmiris were galvanized by video showing the final agony of a cellphone salesman named Shaheed Tanveer who was shot and killed during a protest that summer, a year before Neda Agha Soltan became an icon of Irans protests.

This graphic footage of Mr. Tanveers last moments  and the wounding of another man who survived  was shot by a 15-year-old boy on his phone and uploaded to YouTube:






In a harrowing part of his documentary for the BBC, Mr. Bagchi showed the video of Mr. Tanveers death to his mother, who was seeing it for the first time. Despite the shocking nature of the images of her son, she said after viewing them that she wanted them to remain online: The video should stay on the Internet. Why should we erase it? The world should know about the atrocities in Kashmir.

Mr. Bagchi also explained that all the Kashmirs video bloggers he met, who were mainly English-speaking children of the provinces educated upper class, said that their movement began with an edit of images of the protests set to music  the song Revolution by the Irish singer Chris de Burgh  which was uploaded to YouTube early in 2008.

As Emily Wax reported from Kashmir for The Washington Post, one of the videos rallying protesters this summer was made by a young Kashmiri with a computer degree who edited a powerful video to the lyrics of the Everlast song  Stone in My Hand and posted it on YouTube, prompting police to launch a manhunt for him. Soon enough, Ms. Wax reported, The lyrics  I got no pistol, aint got no sword. I got no army, aint got no land. All I got is stones in my hand  became the anthem of Kashmiri youth and is hummed on the streets here.

Ms. Polgreen points out in her report that Kashmirs Web-savvy protesters do not seem to conform to the stereotype of uneducated youth described by Indian officials:

Indian officials have tried to portray Kashmirs stone-throwing youths as illiterate pawns of jihadist forces across the Pakistan border and have suggested that economic development and jobs are the key to getting young people off the streets. But many of the stone throwers are hardly illiterate. They organize on Facebook, creating groups with names like Im a Kashmiri Stone Pelter.

Ms. Wax reported similar findings in her article for the Post. One video editor, she explained, is a 21-year-old who wears all black, chain-smokes and looks like a Kashmiri James Dean. She noted, He has a girlfriend and a $500 cellphone that is also a high-tech video camera and says he has been accepted for a masters program in London. He, too, is being sought by police.

Update: In response to a question from a reader who asks what is behind the intensity of these protests, consider a statistic cited by Pankaj Mishra in a review of Basharat Peers book, Curfewed Night: One Kashmiri Journalists Frontline Account of Life, Love, and War in His Homeland, earlier this year: out of a population of some 7.6 million people, more than 80,000 people have died since an insurgency supported by Pakistan began in 1989.

Phone Cameras Fuel Kashmir&#8217;s &#8216;Intifada&#8217; - The Lede Blog - NYTimes.com

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## SekrutYakhni

*FREE KASHMIR!!!!*

Self righteous Indians!


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## Future Weapon

"socom" u don't need to worry kashmir is indian territory and it's our problem that how we solve it.


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## civfanatic

Mirwaiz umar Farooqs Rally at Jamia masjid on 13th August


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## S_O_C_O_M

Future Weapon said:


> "socom" u don't need to worry kashmir is indian territory and it's our problem that how we solve it.



90&#37; of Kashmiris say its Pakistan's problem and future territory. 





















Face it they *HATE* Indians/India. You can't even walk alone there without protection of Barathi Army.


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## EjazR

*IBNLive : Sagarika Ghose's Blog : Pride in Kashmir*

If we can have Bihari pride and Marathi pride, why not Kashmiri pride?

Beyond the stone pelters, a new voice is trying to make itself heard in Kashmir. A new century has brought a new generation, a generation marked not by ideology but, like young people all over India, marked by ambition and self assertion. Unless Indian policymakers junk their Islamophobic security centred attitude to Kashmir, we will fail to hear this new voice. The Kashmiri 'intifadah' this time seems not to be totally centred on azaadi. While azaadi may be voiced as a generalised sentiment or as a political lever by the usual political players in the Hurriyat, much of the impetus behind the current youthful rage seems to be not to break away from India, but paradoxically, the urge to belong to India. The urge to be accepted as children of India's economic success not as orphans to be held at gun point behind the barbed wires of mental suspicion.

The teenagers pelting stones at the police are not just the children of two decades of Kashmir violence, they are also children of a globalizing attractive India with its democratic process, its well-advertised progress and its exploding media. They are teenagers active on social networking sites and anxious to be heard in the mainstream media. Observers point to the degree of approval that some Kashmiris have for Atal Bihari Vajpayee for the elections of 2002, JM Lyngdoh who is perceived to have delivered a fair vote and even for Morarjee Desai for the elections of 1977.

There are new role models too. Among today's young Kashmiris, there is 21 year old Pervez Rasool, the Kashmir cricketer who inspite of being wrongfully detained by police during a cricket tournament in Bangaluru, went on to score 50 runs in 47 balls, and smiling broadly raised his bat said, "I am a cricketer, not a terrorist." There is 27 year old Dr Shah Faisal who topped the UPSC examination 2009 and has already chosen to become an IAS officer. There is 33 year old novelist Basharat Peer, whose book 'Curfewed Night' is a best seller at home and abroad. A small flickering flame of young Kashmir's integration with India is has already been lit.

So what then must be the building blocks of a "new" mindset towards Kashmir? The most important building block is to allow Kashmir to have its regional chieftain and allow Kashmir its regional pride. Today chief ministers across India evoke regional pride and regional nationalism. Nitish Kumar is the champion of Bihari pride, Narendra Modi stands for Gujarati asmita, Karunandhi is the leader of Dravida sub nationalism, Naveen Patnaik symbolizes an anti-Delhi, pro-Oriya cause. Across India chief ministers are embodying their regions' culture, renaming their capital cities, indeed chief ministers increasingly stand forth as the champions of region.

So if we can have `Gujarati Pride' and `Oriya Pride' and `Tamil Pride' and `Bihari Pride', why can we not have `Kashmiri Pride'? Why should any championing of Kashmiri regionalism immediately be seen as a threat to India and an invitation to Pakistan? Should 'azaadi' even loosely defined necessarily strike fear in the heart of South Block? Why should Omar Abdullah not be allowed to function as a "Kashmiri" chief minister and why should the Centre demand that he remain an agent of New Delhi? Kashmir has a right to its regional aspirations, it has a right to its pride and it has a right to demand that it gets a chief minister who stands up for the interests of Kashmiris vis-a-vis New Delhi. Kashmir needs its Nitish Kumar.

Yet in times of galloping regional sentiment across India, where regional parties are the norm, Kashmir is perhaps India's only state where a single family has sought to monopolise the political space. However committed the Abdullahs may be to their home state, the Kashmiri democratic space has to be widened and other players must be allowed to openly compete for political constituencies. The rise of the PDP and the successful government that Mufti Mohammad Sayeed was able to deliver during 2002-2005 shows what a difference a local chieftain as chief minister can make.

Accusations that the PDP's flirtation with separatist elements may be true, but the slow process of drawing in all sections of Kashmiris into democratic politics is certain to be painful and grimy. Creating Kashmiri pride and a Kashmiri local leader will not be a process that will get approval from safari suit clad babus accustomed to textbook solutions. No doubt, recognizing Kashmiri pride could provide a breeding ground for separatist sentiments. But this is where the political leadership, both at the Centre and in Srinagar, will have to make a leap of faith.

What will this leap of faith entail? The leap of faith entails first, using words like "separatist" and "secessionist" only when there is good reason to do so. The leap of faith entails recognising that Kashmiris-like Indians across the country-- have the democratic right to protest. If the BJP can have a bharat bandh, if Left can hold mass rallies, Kashmiris have every right to take to the streets, raise slogans, stage dharnas, carry out marches, in short do what MLAs across India do. Democracy's central mantra is `shout don't shoot' and the Centre has to recognize that every Kashmiri who shouts is no longer getting ready to shoot. The leap of faith in Kashmir also means that a chief ministers must offer to resign or make amends if he finds he is not popular, as a mark of respect for the people.The leap of faith in Kashmir means not branding every teenage stone pelter as a Lashkar operative and confronting him with overwhelming force. Kashmir is crying not for azaadi from India but azaadi from the old Indian mindset. Manmohan Singh once liberalised our economy. Now he must liberalise our attitudes towards Kashmir.


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## EjazR

*The Kashmir stories - Hindustan Times*

As if they were characters in Akira Kurosawa's Rashomon, the people of Kashmir, Omar Abdullah's government, and people across much of India view what's occurred in Kashmir from perspectives that make each the victim-hero of their respective versions &#8212; the armed forces standing in as India's
victim-hero. This is a recipe for disaster. For it accentuates anger, resentment, even hatred, against whichever party is assigned the role of wrongdoer in each narrative. From New Delhi's perspective, stone-pelting teenagers

are the bad eggs; the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) and local police only fire as a last resort to control these wanton lawbreakers. In this narrative, jawans have shown great restraint. Pictures published and telecast across India last month showed jawans cowering as Kashmiri boys assault them.

In the Kashmiri media, on the other hand, pictures of teenagers' bodies, and of their grieving relatives, too get wide display. It's imperative to understand the discourse within Kashmir in order to respond sensibly. In late-June and early-July, the discourse there was full of CRPF jawans and policemen arbitrarily assaulting boys, women, even the aged, tearing up media persons' curfew passes, thrashing boys returning from neighbourhood mosques, breaking windows of homes with lights on during a night curfew and firing indiscriminately to kill. Kashmiris focus on the fact that many of the boys who have fallen to the forces' bullets since June 11 weren't throwing stones. One was going for tuition classes; a 9-year-old had gone out to bring home his mentally unstable brother. While their deaths cause anger, riotous indignation is generated by reports, for example, that three boys killed were dragged from their houses on June 29 to a nearby garden in Anantnag and shot in cold blood.

Kashmiris generally don't see stone-pelters as law-breakers but as expressing the community's indignation against such incidents &#8212; and others, such as the killing of three boys at Machil a few months ago. They were lured to an army camp with promises of lucrative work, killed and declared to have been militants. Officers of the army unit got cash bonuses worth lakhs of rupees &#8212; and a better shot at promotions and medals. The incident is being investigated, but there was enough preliminary evidence for two officers to be removed from their posts.

One reason for the tragic divergence in discourse, within Kashmir and across the country, is 'media management' since the late 90s &#8212; by both the BJP and the Congress. Since the space for insightful, critical reporting has shrunk, most Indians react with fear-filled amazement to explosions of public anger. They are unaware of Kashmiris' experience or of shifts in public mood there &#8212; alienation caused by the armed forces and their mercenaries from 1994 to 1999, openness between 2000 and 2005 to an autonomous status agreed between India and Pakistan, and increasing anger since 2006 at both the stalling of talks and continued presence of the armed forces in overwhelming numbers. Their presence is experienced as humiliation: being abusively ordered to hold one's ears as a murga in front of one's children or facing barricaded roads and arbitrary searches &#8212; apart from much harsher torture of being tagged as suspects.

The result: youngsters who were, at times, even beginning to support India during an India-Pakistan cricket match have picked up stones. In contrast with previous generations, they're articulate &#8212; and unafraid. Subliminally at least, many factors form their angst, which is only fuzzily related to what happened in 1947, 1987, or 1990. Many of them have been influenced by the puritanical Islam propagated by televangelists; and they connect, through the Net and mobile phones, to global perceptions about oppression of Muslims. Perceiving armed forces abuse through these lenses, their minds easily leap to the belief that the central forces deliberately kill Kashmiri Muslims &#8212; or that the government transferred land to the Shrine Board to re-engineer Kashmir's demography.

A new discourse has developed: India has colonised Kashmir; it robs its water resources and favours Hindus of Jammu (the reverse is believed in Jammu) in recruitment and development activities. This discourse has most impacted the boys of (mainly downtown) Srinagar and some other towns. It also has salience among some rural youth, though the discourse in other rural areas is strikingly different. It's spreading, though &#8212; and the Centre's responses only fuel the fire in more young hearts.

Owing in part to compromised institutions, the Centre had no idea of the smouldering ire and misread its dimensions when it burst into flames. Over the past couple of weeks, the Centre has tried to 'handle' this year's uprising through Goebbelsian propaganda; facts were fabricated or exaggerated. Srinagar newspaper offices were starved of electricity and prevented from functioning, local correspondents of some national TV channels couldn't leave their offices even at night, criminal charges were slapped on a couple of them, local reporters were beaten on the streets, and their curfew passes torn up.

Given the already existing divergence of discourse, these tactics are disingenuous at the very least. First, unlike the 1975 Emergency, the internet and mobile phones disseminate information, opinions and rumours far more effectively today than even the media channels that the government suppresses. Second, like the Emergency, the suppression (including suspension of SMS services) causes fresh Kashmiri anger. So does the constructed narratives put out nationally. The most dangerous divergence in narratives is that while Kashmiris believe that stones-for-bullets constitutes a non-violent response, the rest of India sees pictures of security men cowering before violent mobs. If these perspectives finally converge in these boys picking up guns, the fresh insurgency would be far more lethal than that of the 90s.


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## EjazR

*What is the way forward in Kashmir?*
Must watch discussion on ndtv, in Vikram Chandra's Big Fight on July 10, particularly the frankness of a young Kashmiri boy at the end.

Also watch Karan Thapar's discussions with PDP INC and other leaders that raise some very valuable concerns
*Is the worst over in Kashmir? - CNBC-TV18 -*


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## civfanatic

The qauid of Kashmir ....Syed Ali shah Geelani


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## civfanatic

CNN on latest Kashmir uprising


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## jeypore

EjazR said:


> *The Hindu : Opinion / Lead : The only package Kashmir needs is justice*
> 
> _*If the Prime Minister does not take bold steps to address the grievances of the Kashmiris, there's no telling where the next eruption will take us*._




No where, back to status-quo!!!!!!!!!


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## indushek

Every body is so interested in Kashmir only because they are Muslims first and then Pakistan has territorial ambitions.

I haven't seen even one Pakistani speaking about Kashmiri Pundits who also lost their homes because of religious terrorists. However they deny that it is neither of those mentioned above the reason for their obsession with Kashmir.

This is the bitter truth.


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## Vinod2070

> There is no such thing as an 'Indian civilization', except that invented by Indian hacks and their apologists.



This is what conversion does to some people. It makes them deny their history, their civilization and makes them an apologist for their own invaders.

I would again suggest, read the book by V.S. Naipaul. It describes this phenomenon perfectly.


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## IRA

still the indians claim Kashmir is theirs......... they are a separate and different people who deserve the right of plebiscite.


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## Vinod2070

And let's not be dishonest. Pakistan has nothing to do with ethnicity. So the claims of Punjabi and Sindhi are disingenuous.

It is all about conversion and the subsequent assumption of a new identity. Your Qaid said as much when he linked Pakistan to the first conversion in India and Bin Qasim's invasion.

However much you want to invent a new identity, you just can't. And you will always have this identity crisis of what Pakistan means. It was there in 1947 and it will be there for the next 6 months as well.

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## afriend

Tormenting trouble and talking of peace.. That sounds like hypocracy too..!!!  If we look at it the whole world is hypocractical..!!!!


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## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Azad Kashmir already has our support; it's a fairly autonomous region as our policy is to treat Kashmir as disputed territory
> 
> the masses there are with us



By AK i meant the Kalashnikov support u r giving..not the hogwash called Azad Kashmir.


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## PAFAce

*Wish you well Pakistan*

WORDS WITHIN BY FIRDOUS SYED

Today Pakistan is celebrating its Independence Day. Fortunate are those nations who cherish their freedom. Fate-bitten nation of ours is engaged in a bloody battle. Our youth are busy in carving out a destiny with their precious blood. Obviously who else than people of Kashmir can appreciate more the value of freedom? Valuing immensely the significance of freedom, we wish to join the world community in congratulating people of Pakistan on this auspicious occasion. At this juncture Pakistan is going through a worst natural calamity in its political history, UN has declared; fortnight-long flooding of the country as a calamity graver than the three biggest natural disasters of this century put together  the tsunami of 2004, the earthquake in Pakistan of 2005 and the Haiti quake this year. Despite inundated by pain and grief due to loss of innocent lives here, we grieve the loss of life in Pakistan and extend our heartfelt condolences to people of Pakistan. May Allah bestow them with patience and courage to overcome the period of great tribulation. 

Having said so, it is also a time of introspection for us. Is it prudent to ask people of Kashmir to observe Yum-e-Istiqlal, on the occasion of Pakistans Independence Day, when entire Kashmiri Nation is busy in a struggle of life and death? A small mistake however innocuous can push us back for decades? There might be many claimants, but it is a matter of fact, present phase of the struggle in all respects truly is a peoples movement. Syed Ali Geelani also endorses this truth; even I will become irrelevant if I defy public sentiment. The real strength of this movement is that it is purely indigenous.

New Delhi tried its best to bracket it with Pakistan with slurs like LeT instigated and Pakistan abetted. Leave aside the slowly growing world opinion in favour of Kashmir; even the conscientious section of influential Indian intelligentsia is not ready to buy the false accusation of Pakistan instigated protests. What two decades of armed struggle could not accomplish, sight of stone holding women has achieved in sixty days. World including India has come to realize that this is an indigenous movement; entire Kashmiri population has revolted against India, and is asking for Right to Self Determination. This is not a territorial dispute between two countries. People of Kashmir might have some emotional attachment with people of Pakistan, but they are not agents of state of Pakistan. State of Pakistan does not wield a remote control, some body in Rawalpindi will press on and we start protesting hysterically and press off, and we sit back home calmly. Kashmiri struggle is not instrument of diplomacy for any state; it is our movement representing our aspirations.

But why blame Pakistan. The statement is explicit enough. Pakistan on Monday rejected a statement made by Indian Home Minister P Chidambaram in which he had accused Pakistan of stoking violence in Indian-held Kashmir, saying Indias contention is too simplistic and indeed delusive. Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit said that by accusing Pakistan, India was not only insulting the indigenous and legitimate struggle of the people of IHK, but also depicted its lack of seriousness towards resolving the Kashmir dispute. Pakistan seems to respect the indigenous character of the freedom struggle, moreover is aware of the sensitivities involved; we appear to behave more loyal than the king. Clubbing Kashmir with Pakistan only serves Indias interests. It has been trying hard to malign the struggle as extension of Pakistan. The call to observe Pakistans Independence Day means fixing a wishful goal which can only contribute to the crisis. India could not prove the charge of Pakistan inspired allegation, by giving a call to celebrate August 14 we are only giving them a whip to beat us with.

Slogans of secular independence or accession to Pakistan have the potential to divide the public opinion, only cry for Azadi meaning Right of Self Determination unites Kashmir. Celebrating Pakistan day also embarrasses the friends of Kashmiri freedom struggle. It will be naïve to regard India as a monolithic entity. There exist many shades of opinion. A good number of people consider Kashmir as a just cause, provided it is able to maintain its indigenous character. Creating unnecessary controversies at this critical hour is nothing but a disservice to the cause.

Throughout the world Kashmiris have responded to the on-going crisis unprecedentedly, as one people. Unity of purpose and unity of action itself is a remarkable feat; it also projects to the outside world the image of one Nation struggling for its legitimate rights. Kashmiris are not protesting within Kashmir only. Every Kashmiri based anywhere is trying to contribute in his own way. From time to time we get to hear about protests and get-togethers being organized in London, Brussels, and New York to highlight Kashmir problem. Protests at Jantar Mantar Delhi, Chennai and Bangalore by Kashmiri community so far were unheard of. The way Kashmiri professionals, traders and young students have come together responded to the call of Nation is heartening. The manner in which young Kashmiri girls and boys are articulating their views on TV and other places highlights their passion and commitment with the cause. Besides this also brings to the fore how talented our new generation is. They are truly proving to be real spokespersons of the suppressed Kashmiri Nation. What gave confidence to all those working or learning in very hostile environment outside Kashmir to assemble at designated places and project Kashmiri aspirations passionately? The confidence that they are speaking for themselves and would not be accused to be working at the behest of another state precisely Pakistan, is the single most important factor. Pakistan or no Pakistan, Kashmiri has always been passionate about Azadi. However the true indigenous, non-violent and inclusive character of present struggle galvanizes every Kashmiri into an action. This makes the real difference. Every Kashmiri confidently projecting his case, has posed many challenges to India, no more its able to project Kashmiri struggle as a separatist movement inspired or abetted by Pakistan. Branding present struggle as a holy war and suffixing it with Pakistan will certainly dampen the spirits of so many, a suicidal act is bound to divide entire nation.

Intelligent people multiply friends and create divisions within enemy ranks. Leadership lacking an imagination is doing quite the opposite here. We are proud to be Muslims. Islam as religion of peace not only inspires us, it defines us. Despite our deep and defining commitment to our way of life, our struggle is not an ideological clash. Irrespective of religious inclinations and political ideologies, present struggle reflects the Kashmirs deep desire for Azadi. We are not in a struggle against Hindus, Jews or Christianity, nor are we fighting against America and Europe. It is not clash of civilization. It is struggle for Right of Self Determination. It is struggle for justice. We have been consistently denied our fundamental rights. We are not here to impose our way of life on others or for that matter reject theirs. Azadi is our birth right; it is fight for justice not ideology. Syed Ali Geelani is known by his ideology, he has a right to hold his opinion. But nobody howsoever small or powerful should be allowed to thrust his personal ideology on the rest. That makes the very movement absolutist in character.

By rejecting America, Europe for that matter Western way of life are we wining friends or scaring people? Whosoever claims to be representing the aspirations must ponder? We must not be pushed to a tyranny of different nature. The movement is best served by keeping it well within the international systems. This movement cannot afford to be recognized internationally as an extremist reactionary anti West struggle. What defines us today is not our antagonism against the West, but our desire for Azadi.

---------------------------------------------------

What the author has written is quite profound. Pakistanis have been so embroiled in our own natural and political problems that we have not been able to, as we have always done in the past, raise our voice with Kashmiris in this latest uprising. This has, inadvertently, taken away India's best card when trying to keep the Kashmiri struggle under blankets, and has rendered them unable to convince anybody that this latest string of violent killings is in result to "Pakistan sponsored terrorist". The people that have been killed by Indian forces recently are average, everyday Kashmiris, particularly the youth. They've been killed while exercising their right to protest and expression. They've been killed by trigger happy troopers juiced with hate.

On this, the 14th of August, 2010, I wish all Kashmiris all the best from your Pakistani brethren. I hope tomorrow, the 15th of August and the annual Yaum-e-Siah in the Kashmir Valley, goes without violence.


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## HariSeldon

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That will be determined in a plebiscite - we are willing to let the Kashmiris decide, are you?



Sure thing, just let us know by when the troop withdrawl will be over. As this is precondition of plibicite to be fulfilled by PK. Agreed ;-)


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## KS

Malik Usman said:


> Oh...from where u got the idea this is india's internal affair.....
> According to UN resolution in 1948 Kashmir is disputed area and Kashmiris will decide that wheather they want to Live Pakistan or Free.



The UNSC resolutions are *NON-BINDING-RESOLUTIONS*..now which part of the 3 words u dont understand.?


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## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> the source you posted is biased propaganda; no other news agencies ran the story for me to cross-check
> 
> waste of time to talk about it



Whatever sails ur boat..Sir



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> today, Kashmiris live in conditions that would warrant similar migrations; however they are holding their ground because their loyalties are to KASHMIR
> 
> Pakistan nation will always provide moral and diplomatic support to them as needed, despite the difficult period our country is undergoing.



OK fine...let the Kashmiris also do a "economic" migration...why should they be treated specially than the Pandits.??


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

HariSeldon said:


> Sure thing, just let us know by when the troop withdrawl will be over. As this is precondition of plibicite to be fulfilled by PK. Agreed ;-)



Sure, as soon as you pick one of the proposed demilitarization plans recommended by the various UN commissions (India rejected them all) appointed for that purpose, or have a new commission come up with one.


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## atul0408

Yaar hum sab yahin hain...kuch nahin hona kashmir ka...jaisa hain waise hi rahega....

moreover for both countries its just a matter of pride that's it...no one actually cares about people of kashmir

Also the only solution i see is....with rapid development of india..we should also include kashmiris in this ....by giving them quotas in Good UNivesties of india and in PSU companies...I MEAN THEY SHOULD ALSO BE PART OF DEVELOPMENT... i hope sooner or later Some KAshimirs who dont accept india will also accept it when there children will be earning good money in indiA..why they will ask for a independent state of for matter will to with Pakistan..


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## Mirza Jatt

dabong1 said:


> Like the indian army did to the sikhs



yeah right..the sikhs were finished for ever and they do not exists anymore. thanks for the latest info.


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## Mirza Jatt

Abasin Turi said:


> sure we also want to put A FULL STOP to it.. but you guys are soo scared to fight.. so grow some balls and face us on borders..



let me present you with some historical facts..._*on border*_ and then decide about who got balls and who need to prove..

Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kargil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> i always find you dancing and crying on indian tv.. why do u guys dance too much btw.
> and yes will you guys dance on the borders too..



we guys sing and dance when we have peaceful time in our country...unlike some nations where people are busy running to save their a$$ from the bomb blast all round the year. and yes we'll dance on the borders too..as we did after every victory.

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## Ganga

In my opinion Kashmiris have been given ample opportunities to have a peacefull and succesfull life.There is an NIT (National institute of technology) in Kashmir which produces good engineers.There is also a very good medical college in Kashmir.Both of them are funded by the government.Kashmir has recently got its own railways system and an international airport.The region is not cut out from th outside world in any form.Kashmiris are free to travel any where they want within the country and abroad.They hav th right to choose their own government.Internets,televison channels(even Pakistani channels )are all allowed .On the other hand i think the people of Azad Kashmir do not have these many opportunities.

I concur that although a lot has been done it is not enough.But no one can say that India has done nothing about Kashmir.


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## somebozo

what is it gonna do?? Open an all out Kashmiri massacre front. That is likely to irk the entire world and strenghten the millitant circles inside kashmir. Been trying it for 62 years and still no signs of sucess. The lies, lack of ethics and propoganda in Indian politics is sickening.


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## Ganga

somebozo said:


> what is it gonna do?? Open an all out Kashmiri massacre front. That is likely to irk the entire world and strenghten the millitant circles inside kashmir. Been trying it for 62 years and still no signs of sucess. The lies, lack of ethics and propoganda in Indian politics is sickening.



No.India can stop investing in Kashmir.I think Kashmiris are a bit pampered.They are not satisfied with what they have.India cannot convert Kashmir into Switzeralnd.India did all she could.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Ganga said:


> No.India can stop investing in Kashmir.I think *Kashmiris are a bit pampered*.They are not satisfied with what they have.India cannot convert Kashmir into Switzeralnd.India did all she could.



Yeah pampered with bullets and attrocities tht UN and human rights comission has slammed several times.


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

Now is the time to be hard and show your force. Your grip is loosening as the rocks shower your world's largest democrazy.


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## gurjot

i couldnt understand the meaning of this thread specially by an indian.y india shud be hard on his part.ya india shud be hard on pak occupied kashmir.it will remain an indian territory.


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## r3alist

kashmiri's should read this thread


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## gurjot

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> Now is the time to be hard and show your force. Your grip is loosening as the rocks shower your world's largest democrazy.



u have repeated this infinite times.i ask u when???


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## Ganga

r3alist said:


> kashmiri's should read this thread



Yes.And they will realize that what they are doing is wrong.


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

gurjot said:


> u have repeated this infinite times.i ask u when???



Some people are thick headed, repetition is necessary.


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## gurjot

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> Some people are thick headed, repetition is necessary.



keep repeating.no body is listening.


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## deltacamelately

somebozo said:


> what is it gonna do?? Open an all out Kashmiri massacre front. That is likely to irk the entire world and strenghten the millitant circles inside kashmir. Been trying it for 62 years and still no signs of sucess. The lies, lack of ethics and propoganda in Indian politics is sickening.


It is simpler than that. Xinxiang.
Employ demographic assimilation within Kashmir. Let people buy land and settle. However, I doubt that the politicos have the spine'n brain.

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## mohan goyal

unfortunately india has developed thick skin about kashmir...and with world is turning their back to kashmir issue..there is no immediate solution round the corner.


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## Tshering22

Now should we be hard? Hello! Should the sky be blue? Should the grass be green? 

Isn't it about time we better be?! Something we can learn from our larger neighbours to tackle terrorists.


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## Spring Onion

deltacamelately said:


> It is simpler than that. Xinxiang.
> Employ demographic assimilation within Kashmir. L*et people buy land and settle*. However, I doubt that the politicos have the spine'n brain.



Try that and you will be faced with suicide bombs not stones

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## gurjot

Jana said:


> Try that and you will be faced with suicide bombs not stones



we cant tolerate suicide bombers.

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## Smileplz

We should be hard,or else this will only expand,people should be treated in a way that the future generation doesn't follow them.


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## SONOFAGUN

Jana said:


> Try that and you will be faced with suicide bombs not stones



This is waht China has been doing in Tibet, Paksitan in Paksitan Occupied Kashmir. Like Paksitan, we should do the same and chnage the name of J&K to *Free Jammu and Kashmir.*

The issue will than get solved in five years.

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## mohan goyal

janaji is simply a instigator dont need to reply her


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## Vinod2070

Jana said:


> Try that and you will be faced with suicide bombs not stones



China is doing fine in Xingxiang with the policy.

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## eric_cartman

I think education and employment to the youth is the only way to solve the crisis. You got to remain occupied with some career goal in your mind to keep urself being astray from the violent things in life.

Also I have no idea how come these stupid security forces end up killing kids coming out of mosque while not wounding or arresting the stone pelter?? this is a serious question mark in my mind??


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## Spring Onion

Vinod2070 said:


> China is doing fine in Xingxiang with the policy.



So you endorse Chinese policy ???


Good to hear Indians are atleast agreed to something from China. 

And do you think with India handing over Kashmiri land to Indians, will you be able to face the consequences beyond stone pelting


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## Spring Onion

Smileplz said:


> We should be hard,or else this will only expand,people should be treated in a way that the future generation doesn't follow them.



What is your definition of hard than the current mode of force used by Indian occupying forces in Kashmiris' country ??


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## Vinod2070

Jana said:


> So you endorse Chinese policy ???



You do. We have a different approach to the Chinese.



> Good to hear Indians are atleast agreed to something from China.



China has many things to teach India, there is no doubt about it.



> And do you think with India handing over Kashmiri land to Indians, will you be able to face the consequences beyond stone pelting



You know, there were Pushtun terrorists from Afghanistan coming into Kashmir just after 1989, when USSR had pulled back and Pakistan redeployed some of these terrorists to Kashmir.

They came highly haughty. I remember reading an Indian magazine that they boasted that the Indian army was "bachchon ke sena" (army of kids) and they were Afghans.

Their arse was kicked so bad, they have never been seen again.

If we can kick out those hardened terrorists, these stone pelters are nothing.

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## parasite

I think all DESHDROHI should be punished with bullet....tear gas won't do


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## linkinpark

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Nonsense - India invaded and annexed the State of Junagadh months after the ruler had acceded to Pakistan, and demanded Pakistan reject the accession the entire time. So India has no standing on the basis of 'accession'.



Junagadh was acceded to Pakistan against the wishes of its people who are 80&#37; Hindus. India had to invade according to popular sentiment. On the other hand, in case of Kashmir, Hari Singh acceded neither to India nor Pakistan up until Pakistani tribals and military started invading. Sardar Patel already expressed wishes to Liaqat Ali of leaving Hyderabad to India (again majority Hindu) in exhange for Kashmir to Pakistan. But Liaqat Ali didn't agree and the results are there for everyone to see.



> Once again, however, Jinnah failed to explore all the options open to him. One possibility was to make compromises over another Princely State, Hyderabad. The Muslim ruler or nizam of Hyderabad faced the same dilemma as Maharaja Hari Singh. He wanted independence but was far from sure he could achieve it. Jinnah understood that it was never realistic to expect the nizam to accede to Pakistan: Hyderabad was entirely surrounded by Indian territory. But he always hoped that the nizam could pull off independence. He considered Hyderabad to be the &#8216;oldest Muslim dynasty in India&#8217; and hoped that its continued existence as an independent state right in the heart of India would provide a sense of security for those Muslims who didn&#8217;t move to Pakistan. Once again, however, Jinnah was thinking in terms of legally possible options rather than political realities. In the long term the independence of Hyderabad, while constitutionally proper, was never going to happen. The new Indian leadership saw the issue clearly enough and when the nizam tried to strike a deal which would allow him to hang on to some degree of autonomy, Delhi flatly refused to consider the idea.
> 
> In retrospect most Pakistanis would agree that it would have been worth abandoning the aspiration for an independent Hyderabad if it had meant securing Kashmir&#8217;s accession to Pakistan. Furthermore, Jinnah had good reason to believe that such a deal could have been struck. In late November 1947 Nehru and Liaquat Ali Khan met to discuss the situation in Kashmir. To understand their conversation it is first necessary to consider briefly what had happened in yet another Princely State, Junagadh.
> 
> The Muslim nawab of Junagadh ruled over a million people, 80 per cent of them Hindus. Junagadh was located in western India and, even though it was not strictly contiguous with Pakistan, its coastline offered the possibility of sea links to the Muslim state that was just 200 miles away. The nawab of Junagadh, guided by his pro-Pakistani chief minister Sir Shah Nawaz Bhutto (the father of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto), decided to ignore the feelings of his Hindu population and acceded to Pakistan. It was the mirror image of the situation in Kashmir. The Indian government did not accept the decision, blockaded Junagadh and then invaded it. Delhi then imposed a plebiscite and secured the result it desired: Junagadh became part of India. *When Liaquat Ali Khan met Nehru at the end of November he exposed the illogicality of India&#8217;s position. If Junagadh, despite its Muslim rulers&#8217; accession to Pakistan, belonged to India because of its Hindu majority, then Kashmir surely belonged to Pakistan. When Liaquat Ali Kahn made this incontrovertible point his Indian interlocutor, Sardar Patel, could not contain himself and burst out: &#8216;Why do you compare Junagadh with Kashmir? Talk of Hyderabad and Kashmir and we could reach agreement.&#8217; Patel was not alone in this view. On 29 October 1947 officials at the American embassy in Delhi had told the US State Department: &#8216;the obvious solution is for the government leaders in Pakistan and India to agree &#8230; [to the] accession of Kashmir to Pakistan and the accession of Hyderabad and Junagadh to India&#8217;. British officials in London concurred.*
> 
> Source: Pakistan: Eye of the Storm - Owen Bennett Jones
> 
> Page 68-69


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## Tshering22

Revolts continue because our government LETS them. I wonder why?


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## SekrutYakhni

Indian Jatt said:


> let me present you with some historical facts..._*on border*_ and then decide about who got balls and who need to prove..
> 
> Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Kargil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> we guys sing and dance when we have peaceful time in our country...unlike some nations where people are busy running to save their a$$ from the bomb blast all round the year. *and yes we'll dance on the borders too..as we did after every victory.*




Can you please share some dance moves with me because when we poke a sword in your (India) arse, we will need some strong dance moves. Perhaps break dance?


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## parasite

saad445566 said:


> Can you please share some dance moves with me because when we poke a *sword* in your (India) arse, we will need some strong dance moves. Perhaps break dance?



hahaha sword in which century you are living in.......


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## EjazR

*
PM&#8217;s butt-numbing speech *

When I read the prime minister&#8217;s speech this week on Kashmir, I too wanted to pick up a stone and hurl it at the government. Not because the speech was, as with most of Manmohan Singh&#8217;s speeches, butt-numbingly boring. Not because it was, as a Kashmiri facebook friend put it, &#8220;the same old rhetoric&#8221;. It was because the prime minister, being the head of the government of the second largest population on the planet, speaks for that population with a certain gravitas; and all that this well-respected mild-mannered academic could think to do was offer the Kashmiris a bribe. It wasn&#8217;t an original brainwave at that; prime ministers since Jawaharlal Nehru have adopted bribery as their Kashmir policy. Kashmiris gave their verdict on the speech by returning to stone-pelting. That boys are picking up stones at the risk of catching a bullet (fired in warning) with the middle of their foreheads tells you how hoary the bribery-policy is. That youngsters continue to retaliate to bullets with stones instead of crossing a hill and picking up an AK-47 tells you a lot about self-restraint. If events during the past few weeks in Kashmir weren&#8217;t so pessimism-inducing, one might say the boys were Gandhians with stones.

Manmohan Singh &#8212; forgive me, I&#8217;ve lost too much respect for him to address him as prime minister &#8212; is no orator and so it would be unfair, after over 50 deaths of mostly students, to expect him to reach out to the Kashmiris with a poem instead of blithely stating that &#8220;I share the grief and sorrow&#8221; of every Kashmiri mother. His predecessor was eminently capable of crystallising in a poem the empathy that Kashmiris need to hear from the vast nation of India that they now see as an occupying, totalitarian state. His predecessor followed a political ideology but when it came to this very complex issue, he became pragmatic in the way that statesmen do. Manmohan Singh cannot be pragmatic. It&#8217;s not only because he is not a politician (you merely need to take a hard look at Kashmir to see why sneering at politics or politicians is always a lazy option); it&#8217;s not only because his big political achievement during UPA-I, the Indo-US civil nuclear deal, was the result not of political deal-making but of strong-arm tactics; but it looks increasingly as if it is because Manmohan Singh has no ideology. His party boss Sonia Gandhi is more worthy because at least she publicly champions a left-of-centre ideology. He champions none, other than perhaps the market.

The Kashmiris wouldn&#8217;t care a toss if Manmohan Singh had at least hinted at the beginning of a political roadmap to sort out their grievance. Instead, he made only one specific announcement, of the constitution of an expert group to find jobs for Kashmiris, comprising worthies like C Rangarajan, N R Narayana Murthy and Tarun Das. This is laughable because it implies that the reason boys are on the streets risking paramilitary bullets is because they don&#8217;t have jobs. It is sad because Manmohan Singh is either unmindful or, worse, deliberately ignoring the fact that Kashmiris with jobs &#8212; not just in the Valley but outside as well &#8212; are among those on the streets. We can safely say that the stone-pelting has nothing to do with employment opportunities. This gives Manmohan Singh&#8217;s speech a sinister character: for, by inference, it would appear that he has utter disdain for the Kashmiri political aspiration.

He&#8217;s not alone in this disdain. An example of the avoidance of this simple fact is what one former top espiocrat has written on the protests: like many wonks who sit comfortably on their butter-chicken-fed-backsides in the imperial capital, he ascribes the stone-pelting to a well thought-out Pakistani policy; and further, he blames Mufti Mohd Sayeed&#8217;s PDP for fanning the flames by pushing an extreme autonomy position instead of swooning at Delhi&#8217;s pseudo-autonomy promises (which are about as genuine as promises of full employment or total eradication of poverty). Firstly, &#8220;well thought-out Pakistan policy&#8221; is not just an oxymoron but a logical impossibility. Secondly, the PDP is a political party that responds to issues that through its cadres it recognises as relevant to its people. A party that addresses issues relevant only to Rome does not remain a relevant party for long. If a Tamil party invokes issues of Tamil pride, a Kashmiri party will do the analogous. The PDP is not being irresponsible &#8212; to its people. It knows that soft autonomy isn&#8217;t going to cut it now. The only way to get people interested is to talk hard autonomy. Give the PDP credit for at least keeping within the mainstream, even if it doesn&#8217;t look that way to a bunch of North Block whiz-kids.

You could defend Manmohan Singh saying that he has to be careful in his speeches because as prime minister he has to represent all shades of opinion and when it comes to Kashmir there are some very strong views, particularly among the conservatives. These views are not new, subtle or even well thought out: a corrosive former editor used to say that India should keep the land and throw out all the Muslims. This kind of thinking belies the general belief that Indians are an intelligent race, inventors of the zero and masters of modern software coding. The alarming part however is that Manmohan Singh is bullied by this opinion. Again, it is strange that when it comes to a foreign country, Pakistan, Manmohan Singh is willing to defy the BJP and try out new things, to the extent of making concessions like he did at Sharm-el-Sheikh, to the dismay of many Indians. And he has kept at it, not looking over his shoulder at Indian public opinion, despite the Pakistan Army&#8217;s obvious impatience to launch another terrorist strike at India. Yet when it comes to Kashmir, which is supposedly an inalienable part of our nation, Manmohan Singh is less than bold and less than generous. It can only mean he is less than interested.

Besides making some of us want to pick up a few stones and hurl it at Manmohan Singh, his lack of interest in sorting out Kashmir makes you wonder why it fails to move him. One can only guess, but again why not contrast him with his predecessor, who was actually keen on a settlement. His predecessor was a political prime minister, worthy of his office. This man is not. India deserves a better PM standing at Red Fort on its 63rd Independence Day.

editorchief@expressbuzz.com

About The Author;

Aditya Sinha is the Editor-in-Chief of The New Indian Express and is based in Chennai


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## SekrutYakhni

parasite said:


> hahaha sword in which century you are living in.......



I guess 21st?


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## parasite

saad445566 said:


> I guess 21st?



good guess.......hahhahhaa.......


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## SekrutYakhni

parasite said:


> good guess.......hahhahhaa.......



Thank you for that. Can you please teach some dance moves?


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## blain2

"Kashmir youths take on the Indian state as separatist struggle starts again"

This was bound to happen.


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## SekrutYakhni

blain2 said:


> "Kashmir youths take on the Indian state as separatist struggle starts again"
> 
> This was bound to happen.




Hope they get rid of Indians!


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## Nononsense

What ever you may say, our media is sharing /covering the news unbiased. All the channels including INDIA TV is covering the incidents w/o bias. Thats the first time.


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## parasite

------------------


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## Tshering22

Nononsense said:


> What ever you may say, our media is sharing /covering the news unbiased. All the channels including INDIA TV is covering the incidents w/o bias. Thats the first time.


And that's the mistake we Indians do in compliant of our policies to let everyone express their views including terrorists and separatists. About time we re-think our valley policy.


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## blain2

IndianRobo said:


> trying for 60+ years, and the time hasnt come yet??? Well Once the kashmiris will Learn from there mistakes and Find out who the Real culprits are... Lol... Lets wait and see...



The culprits are certainly not those who agree with their point of view. Its rather the ones oppressing them. Maybe the oppressors should realize their mistakes. 

There is no Pakistani hand in this...this is as legitimate as it gets. Time for Indians to realize this as well. Pakistani bogey works some times, but by all accounts, this is as indigenous as it gets. Time for Indians to look within and realize that there is a fundamental disconnect here between them and Kashmiris. All of the bravado and hubris won't help the Indian government. Even if this current unrest ebbs, there will be others in the future.


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## blain2

Tshering22 said:


> Revolts continue because our government LETS them. I wonder why?



Your government has no choice. Force only delays, but does not fix the problem on hand. As far as "letting", that is hubris speaking. Your government has, for the past 60 years, mostly used force and the results are there for all to see. Not sure what more force will yield?

Israeli use of force and its results are in front of all to see as well. Its a band-aid on a cancerous tumor growing within.

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## magg

> Your government has no choice. Force only delays, but does not fix the problem on hand. As far as "letting", that is hubris speaking. Your government has, for the past 60 years, mostly used force and the results are there for all to see. Not sure what more force will yield?



And what do you have to say about the bullet ridden bodies of patriotic balochs found in Balochistan ?. The fact is Pak military is much more oppressive and brutal caring about none other than the punjabis. 

The pak military uses indiscriminate fire on innocents in Balochistan & KP and then portray them as "terror suspects". The most brutal example was that of swat. In swat the families of "terror suspects" are being forced to leave the area and live in camps even after the families show the legal documents declaring that they have disowned any relations with the suspect. Then their houses are demolished so that the terror suspect surrender or it's family will be tortured. 

Recently a shia teacher was abducted in P_O_K and after some time her bullet ridden body was found. Mojahirs are regularly killed in karachi by govt. sponsored assassins. Recently a MQM legislator was killed which lead to killing of 82 persons. The Sirikai's are regularly oppressed and subjected to beatings by the administration. The Shia's of P_O_K are regularly targeted by bombs while arring out their processions. 

The constitution of P_O_K was blown to hell during the Kargil war and the legislators are forced to support the ISI chosen person as CM. The P_O_K is controlled by military. The Gilgit-Baltistan people were deceived by declaring it as a province instead of the promised autonomy. 

The resources of all areas outside Punjab are being captured by the punjabis at minuscule cost. So be it Baloch's iron-ore or copper ore or the jems of P_O_K. The punjabis are being used as labors in these areas instead of the local people who have no job. The money being given to Baloch's for the oil/gas projects there, is peanuts to say the least. 

KP is rendered illiterate so that the punjabis could use them as Taliban against ISAF/US/NATO as also against India in Kashmir. The Flood aid money from the 2005 Kashmir earthquake was not given to the agency responsible (EPRA or whatever) and the agency formed had retired army men as employees when a large population of civilians was/is out of work. This was done to make sure that whatever money was given, was appropriated for military installations or for rebuilding the terrorist infrastructure destroyed. 

Even though the water was being misappropriated by the army (as said by Punjab's misters), India was blamed for water scarcity. This was done to turn people against India and volunteer to be terrorists or join army. The material distributed by India to pakistan during 2005 Quake had it's made in India tag removed so as make sure that people remain ignorant of India's aid. 

These are some of the facts about your brutal military and intelligence agencies who don't give a damn about innocent people's lives and are feeding the current unrest to internationalize Kashmir again as it sees the repercussions of wikileaks. The innocents are being killed due to the psychological war of ISI.


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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Nonsense - India invaded and annexed the State of Junagadh months after the ruler had acceded to Pakistan, and demanded Pakistan reject the accession the entire time. So India has no standing on the basis of 'accession'.


Your bringing in the topic of Junagadh is nonsense. Here's why:

*Indian integration of Junagadh*

_The *Muslim Nawab of Junagadh*, Muhammad Mahabat Khanji III, whose ancestors had ruled Junagadh and small principalities for some two hundred years, decided that *Junagadh should become part of Pakistan, much to the displeasure of the people of the state, an overwhelming majority of whom were Hindus.* The Nawab acceded to the Dominion of Pakistan on 15 August 1947. Pakistan accepted this on 13 September. *When Pakistan confirmed the acceptance of the accession* in September, the *Government of India was outraged that Muhammad Ali Jinnah could accept the accession of Junagadh despite his argument that Hindus and Muslims could not live as one nation.*[1] Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel believed that if Junagadh was permitted to go to Pakistan, it would exacerbate the communal tension already simmering in Gujarat._


What was exactly the premise for the creation of Pakistan? And yet Pakistan accepted the accession of a Hindu majority state? Now what would you call that. Imho, GoI was perfectly in its rights to subsequently intervene in Junagadh. So your accusation that its was India who is to blame is unsubstantiated.

Similar is the argument against your bringing in the topic of Hyderabad - a Hindu majority ruled by a Muslim ruler. The ruler wanted to accede to Pakistan - a state formed on an Islamic identity! 

How does anyone justify that? First create a state on the pretext of religion and then try to annex areas with a majority population seen as heretics/pagans/kaffirs/non-believers! And you think justice would have been done? The present condition if many of your minorities speaks volumes.


> And the UN resolutions calling for plebiscite and the Indian promise of promise of plebiscite came after the Kashmiri revolt against the Mahrajah and the subsequent Pakistani intervention, so that intervention cannot be claimed as reason to justify a violation of a commitment to plebiscite domestically and on an international forum.


Exactly. The Maharaja of Kashmir (you may question his credentials as much as you can, that wont make any difference to the fact that he was the ruler of Kashmir), when faced with invading Pakistani troops (disguised as tribals) rushed to India to ask for help. India put forth a condition that India wont intervene till he agreed to join the Union of India. Plebiscite clause comes much later. The ruler agreed, the people of Kashmir then agreed and Kashmir acceded to India. India was then bound to protect its territory and thus sent in troops to push back the intruders. But unfortunately, Nehru, going against logic and commonsense approached UN to intervene and the rest as they say is history.


> Before 1947 it existed as a British Colony, unified by the British from a motley of Kingdoms, Princely States fiefdoms. It was never a unified independent nation-State, and that is fact.


Whatever makes you happy. Stick to it!
Judging by the same yard stick, neither were many countries "nation-states" -as you call it - till late last century. And yet, their history is celebrated as one of its kind, while the concept of India is critized. So whatever! I dont agree with these fallacious arguments and viewpoints of yours.


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## gubbi

blain2 said:


> Your government has no choice. Force only delays, but does not fix the problem on hand.



It actually does. Tibet comes to mind. 

GoI should do what the Chinese did in Tibet. Act for act!


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## Prometheus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Sure, as soon as you pick one of the proposed demilitarization plans recommended by the various UN commissions (India rejected them all) appointed for that purpose, or have a new commission come up with one.



a little problem with that..........Cross border terrorism.

even with so much forces ....... terrorist activities are occuring..............only god knows what will happen without them


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## dabong1

nanmun said:


> Awesome. Since you know fully well, there's no need to discuss it further.




Correct.......we all know fully well that india is the one that is the occupation force.



nanmun said:


> Kashmir issue is more complex than what it is. Autonomy, Independence, merging with Pakistan - all three have different meanings. Given the motivation of people to join Pakistan shows the role of Pakistan in instigating protesters.



No..... its actually pretty simple and not as complex as you make it.......let the people vote and decide.....simple.



nanmun said:


> Masses are very easy to emotionally agitate them.



Your talking about the indians or the kashmirirs?



nanmun said:


> Anyways, I expect these protests to subside soon as people realize that they are not going to ruin their livelihoods and their economy for something that is not easy to achieve.



Well we have been sacrificing a lot in the last so many decades and we shall conitinue.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

And lets not forget the Video set to Chris De Burgh's song 'Revolution' that was the 'anthem' for Kashmiri youth when the BBC report was compiled. The two videos above however contain actual video footage of protests;

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## somebozo

These are some truly energetic protests..Cold water on Indian propoganda...Wait till headlines like ISI smuggling camera phones into Kashmir..hahaha...

On the serious note..somebody please help these poors with weapons..if the conflict has to be bloody then be it.. I truly wish those stones were grenades...Iranians never won the war against saddam by pelting stones and Kashmiris wont either..Better to die for freedom then breath slavery!


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## Pride

indushek said:


> Every body is so interested in Kashmir only because they are Muslims first and then Pakistan has territorial ambitions.
> 
> I haven't seen even one Pakistani speaking about Kashmiri Pundits who also lost their homes because of religious terrorists. However they deny that it is neither of those mentioned above the reason for their obsession with Kashmir.
> 
> This is the bitter truth.



They wont talk about them as chest beating people of Pakistan over murders of "Few" Kashmiris supported so called "freedom fighter" to oust "thousands" of Kashmiri Pundits of valley. They never utter a word about them.. Hypocrisy at its best..


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## S_O_C_O_M

*BLACK DAY​*






*On call of All Parties Hurriyat Conference and on behalf of the whole Pakistani nation. MTT has decided to observe India's Independence Day as Black Day.

During Black Day protests against Indian attrocities in Occupied Kashmir. MTT will try to bring as many facts as possible in your attention.

Please notify as many friends of yours as possible about MTT. This will help us to further the Kashmir's struggle for the right of Self-Determination.

You can read and uderstand the Kashmir protest by clicking this link*:

SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE PARLIAMENT ON KASHMIR


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------








*INDIA'S COMMITMENT OF PLEBISCITE FOR THE PEOPLE OF KASHMIR

Our view which we have repeatedly made public is that the question of accession in any disputed territory or State must be decided in accordance with wishes of people and we adhere to this view.

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(in telegram No. 402-Primin-2227 dated 27 October 1947 to Prime Minister of Pakistan repeating telegram addressed to Prime Minister of United Kingdom).
In regard to accession also, it has been made clear that this is subject to reference to people of State and their decision.

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(in telegram No.413 dated 28 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).
 .the people of Kashmir would decide the question of accession. It is open to them to accede to either Dominion then.

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(in telegram No.255 dated 31 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).
Kashmir should decide question of accession by plebiscite or referendum under international auspices such as those of the United Nations.

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(Letter No. 368-Primin dated 21 November 1947 to Prime Minister of Pakistan).
We are anxious not to finalize anything in a moment of crisis and without the fullest opportunity to be given to the people of Kashmir to have their say. It is for them ultimately to decide.
And let me make it clear that it has been our policy all along that where there is a dispute about the accession of a state to either Dominion, the accession must be made by the people of that state.

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(Broadcast to the Nation: All India Radio: 2 November 1947).
* The issue in Kashmir is whether violence and naked force should decide the future or the will of the people. JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(Statement in Indian Constituent Assembly; 25 November 1947).
We have not opposed at any time an over-all plebiscite for the State as a whole.

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(in telegram dated 16 August 1950 addressed to the U.N. Representative for India and Pakistan: S/1791 : Anne 1(B).
The most feasible method of ascertaining the wishes of the people was by fair and impartial plebiscite.

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(Joint press communique of the Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan issued in Delhi after their meeting on 20 August 1953).
People seem to forget that Kashmir is not a commodity for sale or to be bartered. It has an individual existence and its people must be the final arbiters of their future.

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(Report to the All-India Congress Committee, 6 July 1951; The Statesman, New Delhi, 9 July 1951).
Kashmir is not a thing to be bandied about between India and Pakistan but it has a soul of its own and an individuality of its own. Nothing can be done without the goodwill and consent of the people of Kashmir.

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(Statement in the Indian Parliament, 31 March 1955).
We had given our pledge to the people of Kashmir, and subsequently to the United Nations; we stood by it and we stand by it today. Let the people of Kashmir decide.

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(Statement in the Indian Parliament, 12 February 1951).
We have taken the issue to the United Nations and given our word of honour for a peaceful solution. As a great nation, we cannot go back on it. We have left the question for final solution to the people of Kashmir and we are determined to abide by their decision.

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(Amrita Bazar Patrika, Calcutta, 2 January 1952).
If, after a proper plebiscite, the people of Kashmir said, We do not want to be with India, we are committed to accept that. We will accept it though it might pain us. We will not send any army against them. We will accept that, however hurt we might feel about it, we will change the Constitution, if necessary.

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(Statement in the Indian Parliament, 26 June 1952).
I want to stress that it is only the people of Kashmir who can decide the future of Kashmir. It is not that we have merely said that to the United Nations and to the people of Kashmir; it is our conviction and one that is borne out by the policy that we have pursued, not only in Kashmir but every where.
I started with the presumption that it is for the people of Kashmir to decide their own future. We will not compel them. In that sense, the people of Kashmir are sovereign.

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(Statement in Indian Parliament, 7 August 1952)
The whole dispute about Kashmir is still before the United Nations. We cannot just decide things concerning Kashmir. We cannot pass a bill or issue an order concerning Kashmir or do whatever we want.

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(The Statesman, 1 May 1953)
Leave the decision regarding the future of this State to the people of the State is not merely a promise to your Government but also to the people of Kashmir and to the world.

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(In telegram No. 25 dated 31 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).
In regard to accession also it has been made clear that this is subject to reference to people of State and their decision.

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(In telegram No.413 dated 28 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).
That Government of India and Pakistan should make a joint request to U.N.O. to undertake a plebiscite in Kashmir at the earliest possible date.

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(In telegram No. Primin-304 dated 8 November 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).
We have always right from the beginning accepted the idea of the Kashmir people deciding their fate by referendum or plebiscite..
Ultimately, the final decision of settlement, which must come, has first of all to be made basically by the people of Kashmir.

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(Statement at Press Conference in London, 16 January 1951, The Statesman, 18 January 1951).
But so far as the Government of India are concerned, every assurance and international commitment in regard to Kashmir stands.

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(Statement in the Indian Council of States; 18 May 1954).*









http://www.MarkTheTruth.com

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## Agnostic_Indian

Some people think that it is their fundamental right to throw stones at security forces and no matter how they provoke or misbehave or mislead other people it is their right to pray and walk freely on streets..Fundamental right..lol.


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## Agnostic_Indian

Kashmir is indian and will stay indian.


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## foxbat

Rajouri: One militant killed in an encounter security forces

Rajouri: One militant has been killed in the encounter between militants and security forces in the Rajouri district of Jammu and Kashmir.

An encounter is going on between militants and security forces in the area since Saturday.

It is believed that a group of terrorists jumped out of a house into the adjoining fields.

It is a joint operation between Army jawans and the police who are fighting these terrorists.


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## Tomahawk

*Shoe thrown at Omar Abdullah at Independence Day function*

Srinagar: A shoe was hurled at Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, reportedly by an assistant sub-inspector, during the Independence Day function. 

However, the shoe did not hit the Chief Minister.

Just as the Chief Minister was about to unfurl the flag, it came flying from behind the stands.
The man then raised black flags and shouted slogans as he was being bodily carried out by the security in the stands. 

The Chief Minister however, was unfazed and said "throw shoes not stones."






Shoe thrown at Omar Abdullah at Independence Day function


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## friendly_troll96

What size and brand is that shoe? I know it's irrelevant, but they clearly stated the size of the shoe that was hurled at pres bush.


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## KS

Happy Black day.....if it makes u any better .


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## foxbat

Its almost becoming a prestige symbol among politicians now


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## gurjot

we will continue the brightest day.


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## Awesome

Why shoe? Should have been gobar

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## Break the Silence

Happy Black day to SOCOM.


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## mohan goyal

hahahahaha...good one s_o_c_o_m ...we knew that u gonna come with this..lol


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## foxbat

Pakistani friends(some not all), please enjoy the blackness all you want. We would rather enjoy the day in color , specifically tri color.. As we enjoyed yesterday in Green and White.

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## foxbat

Asim Aquil said:


> Why shoe? Should have been gobar



carrying that inside the parade ground could have been a problem.


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## gurjot

soon we will c a shoe protection force 4 politicians


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## Break the Silence

Better to stay out of this thread...(To my Indian Brothers)


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## friendly_troll96

foxbat said:


> carrying that inside the parade ground could have been a problem.



lmao you're so funny!

xx

edit: lol@jutamaro.com, khallamaro.com


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## alibaz

foxbat said:


> Its almost becoming a prestige symbol among politicians now



I think this represents hatered expressed by shoe throwers against their targets and so far that has always been the case.


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## Areesh

> A police officer hurled a shoe at Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah and raised pro-freedom slogans at an Independence function in Srinagar on Sunday. The shocking incident reflects the undercurrents of anger within the police establishment over mishandling of situation in Kashmir.
> 
> Omar Abdullah unfurled the Tri-color around 10:30 am and oversaw a customary flag march at Srinagars Bakshi Stadium when an assistant sub inspector, identified as Abdul Ahad, threw a shoe at the chief minister from a VIP lounge.
> 
> After hurling the shoe, the police officer raised slogan, *we want freedom."* Nevertheless, the chief minister maintained his calm and continued with the ceremony without any hesitation, saying "let people throw shoes not stones."
> 
> The chief minister asked Kashmiris to resume normal life as students, daily wagers and labourers, as daily life has badly suffered due to the shutdown in the past two months.
> 
> The police officer has been placed under suspension. No one from the authorities was ready to speak on the issue.
> 
> The venue, where the function took place, is under three-tier security and mobile services have been snapped in Srinagar to keep militants at bay from making any subversive attempt.



Shoe hurled at Omar Abdullah during Independence Day function

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Well deserved.Th dog needed it.
FREE KASHMIR.

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## Jacobtheindoamerican

The real shoe being thrown has been censored by the Pakistan media sadly. So no footage.


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## KS

Jacobtheindoamerican said:


> YouTube - An old man threw shoes on President of Pakistan Asif Ali Zardari



Arey leav it..they even rejoice at the shoe thrown on their Elected President.

BTW..Good move by the Policeman...

Atleast now the Indian Govt needs to wake up and show the separatists their true place.And not continue with the Kid Gloves.

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## graphican

Welcome to Zardari Group Hehe..


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## Areesh

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Well deserved.Th dog needed it.
> FREE KASHMIR.



**** ki tarah baighairat hai lanati.


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## KS

graphican said:


> Welcome to Zardari Group Hehe..



U could have thrown another shoe instead of comparing with Zardari...lol


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## Tshering22

Areesh said:


> Shoe hurled at Omar Abdullah during Independence Day function


Shoe has been hurled at even your big brother Wen Jiabao and your president Zardari along with a couple of our ministers and 2 other so-called intellectuals. Big deal.

That officer is free to go wherever he wants. He has azadi. Who's stopping him?

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## Kompromat

Good work , throwing shoes wont earn Kashmiris their right to self determination but it definitely will convey a message to GOI that their occupation is not going to Last long.


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## graphican

Didn't this guy feel shame on saluting Indian flag when he claims he represents Kashmiris? Kashmiris are not Indians, they never were and they will never be that.

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## Comet

Asim Aquil said:


> Why shoe? Should have been gobar



Perhaps, the shoe had Gober underneath.


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## Jacobtheindoamerican

I respect the Pakistani MODs and Admin for dealing with the Indians trolls and such. Who ever owns this site most be making good profit from the trolls. Gj guys

Ur an inspiration.


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## Mirza Jatt

saad445566 said:


> Can you please share some dance moves with me because when we poke a sword in your (India) arse, we will need some strong dance moves. Perhaps break dance?



your arse is already poked by swords from 1971 and 1991..get rid of that first and then get think about poking to India....I am sure you yourself will learn the dance moves when, taking out those swords out of there...


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## gurjot

saad445566 said:


> Hope they get rid of Indians!



i hope indians to get rid of terror not kashmiris


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## nanmun

Just wait for another week ... you won't be hearing any more protests. 
People will get back to their normal lives .... they will realize that they are just wasting their time. It has been contested that separatists are giving money for protesters ... i don't such motivation lasts long ... given that they are losing much more than what they are gaining.


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## Nononsense

Tshering22 said:


> And that's the mistake we Indians do in compliant of our policies to let everyone express their views including terrorists and separatists. About time we re-think our valley policy.



So you mean lets do a China/ Israel thing. Put Tanks before the stone pelters? and block off all media? No free media!!

Complete NO NO. This is not the way India is meant to be , never will be.


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## gurjot

Nononsense said:


> So you mean lets do a China/ Israel thing. Put Tanks before the stone pelters? and block off all media? No free media!!
> 
> Complete NO NO. This is not the way India is meant to be , never will be.



it's better to save integrity first

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## KS

Nononsense said:


> So you mean lets do a China/ Israel thing. Put Tanks before the stone pelters? and block off all media? No free media!!
> 
> Complete NO NO. This is not the way India is meant to be , never will be.



Sir let ppl like U carry on with this Human Rights lala ,sitting from AC rooms and let the poor Jawans die in the mountains of Kashmir or the jungles of Jharkhand.

Well I dont fault U...but it has become a fashion,a trend to go on a HR lecture,invariably bash the Security forces and potray them as some kind of untouchables/animals acting as a modern day Martin Luther.


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## KS

Security forces have killed two militants, but one is still believed to be holed in. No Independence Day respite in the Kashmir Valley as security forces are locked in a fierce encounter that began at around 2.00 pm on Saturday with three Lashkar terrorists in Jammu and Kashmir's Rajouri district.

Militants opened indiscriminate fire on security forces, which retaliated. However, residents have been sent to nearby villages to ensure their safety and security.

Reports say the militants are the same ones who had attacked an army military convoy in Thanamandi four days back. 

Meanwhile, security was put on high alert in Jammu and Kashmir on Saturday with mounted vigil on the frontier with Pakistan on the eve of the Independence Day.

Link


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## dabong1

gubbi said:


> Your bringing in the topic of Junagadh is nonsense. Here's why:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What was exactly the premise for the creation of Pakistan? And yet Pakistan accepted the accession of a Hindu majority state? Now what would you call that. Imho, GoI was perfectly in its rights to subsequently intervene in Junagadh. So your accusation that its was India who is to blame is unsubstantiated.
> 
> Similar is the argument against your bringing in the topic of Hyderabad - a Hindu majority ruled by a Muslim ruler. The ruler wanted to accede to Pakistan - a state formed on an Islamic identity!
> 
> How does anyone justify that? First create a state on the pretext of religion and then try to annex areas with a majority population seen as heretics/pagans/kaffirs/non-believers! And you think justice would have been done? The present condition if many of your minorities speaks volumes.
> 
> Exactly. The Maharaja of Kashmir (you may question his credentials as much as you can, that wont make any difference to the fact that he was the ruler of Kashmir), when faced with invading Pakistani troops (disguised as tribals) rushed to India to ask for help. India put forth a condition that India wont intervene till he agreed to join the Union of India. Plebiscite clause comes much later. The ruler agreed, the people of Kashmir then agreed and Kashmir acceded to India. India was then bound to protect its territory and thus sent in troops to push back the intruders. But unfortunately, Nehru, going against logic and commonsense approached UN to intervene and the rest as they say is history.




If the indians had accepted the accession of hydrabad-jundagarh to pakistan then we would have accepted the same thing in kashmir..........but you invaded hydrabad-jundagarh saying that they where majority hindu areas so should join india and then we pakistani said the same thing should apply in kashmir.

Did india accept the accession of these two areas to pakistan....no


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## EjazR

> chief minister maintained his calm and continued with the ceremony without any hesitation, saying "let people throw shoes not stones."



lol. According to latest news, CM has said that no punishment should be given to the officer. 

As someone wrote about it somewhere, only in a democracy this can happen. I think it was compared to case of Saddam Hussein or other dictators who never have shoes thrown at them


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## EjazR

*Kashmir Images :: Details*
*Appeals youth to help restore normalcy; offers them 50,000 jobs*
Srinagar, Aug 14: Expressing grief and sorrow over the loss of lives during recent happenings in the Valley, Chief Minister today conveyed heart-felt condolences and solidarity with the bereaved families while appealing the youth to help restore normalcy.
My heart bleeds and in their hour of grief; I am with the bereaved families whose dear ones have lost their lives. The victims of the unfortunate events are my own brothers and sons and I am in gloom and bereavement, he said adding that nobody can be so stone-hearted as not to be touched by such happenings and no eye can be without tears over the loss of lives.
The Chief Minister also expressed grief over the loss of lives in the recent cloudburst in Leh and said that government would take every step for the rehabilitation of affected families and restoration of public service infrastructure.
Omar said no economic or employment packages can heal the wounds, but economic development is also an essential component of the well-being of the state and its people and so cannot be ignored.
He announced that 50,000 youth will be engaged by the government within the next few months.
While Prime Minister has constituted C. Rangarajan committee to address the employment problem in Jammu and Kashmir, on the occasion of the holy days of Ramadan, I announce that the state government will engage 50,000 youth in the government within the next few months to improve the public delivery system in public services.
In his address to the people on the eve of Indias Independence Day to be telecast and broadcast from Doordarshan and Radio Kashmir on August 15, 2010, Omar said that right from the day he took over as the Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir, he has focused on enhancing the employability and expanding the orbit of employment for the youth of the state.
He said during the last 18 months, his government besides focusing on pani (drinking water), bijlee (electricity), sarak (roads), sehat (health) and taleem (education) as the five most important sectors of economic welfare, has laid emphasis on providing solution to the unemployment issue.
Omar welcomed the Prime Ministers announcement in the All Party Conference regarding the restoration of autonomy to the Jammu and Kashmir, adding that this would help to remove the trust deficit that has crept in due to its erosion.
He also welcomed the Government of Indias recognition of the fact that the accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India had taken place under unique circumstances.
This is a historic opportunity for us and we must take advantage of it, he said and appealed to the separatist leaders to come to the table for talks and play their role in solving the Kashmir issue, he maintained.
Acknowledging that the people in Jammu and Kashmir are cynical about the promises made by the Government of India in the past, Chief Minister said there was a need for the Central government to initiate action to remove all doubts from the minds of the people and bridge the gap that has emerged over the last six decades.
I think by restoring the autonomy this trust deficit will be removed. I request the Government of India to take urgent measures in this regard.
On Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA), Omar said he is the first Chief Minister who raised this issue in the State Assembly and repeatedly advocated its revocation.
I have stressed on its amendment time and again and I am happy that the Union government has recognized the necessity of revisiting AFSPA. While we have also to work towards this direction I appeal to the Central government to take concrete steps for revoking this Act, he said.
Omar said it was he who made it clear in the presence of Prime Minister and UPA chairperson at the inauguration of railway line at Anantnag that Kashmir is a political issue and it should be addressed politically.
While expressing thanks to the Central government for the liberal economic support I said that the political genesis of Kashmir issue cannot be addressed by economic packages.
Omar said he is advocating this aspect of the problem time and again and will continue to do so at each fora in future as well.
He said ever-since he has taken over as the Chief Minister of the state, I have been advocating the necessity of sustained internal and external dialogue processes. I am a votary of a sustained meaningful dialogue between India and Pakistan and between India and different shades of opinion within the state in a bid to restore tranquility and peace in the state.
Omar said the state has witnessed a saga of uncertainty, violence and disturbance during the last 60 years without achieving anything. It is the time for everyone to help to work together for restoration of dialogue channels and make necessary headway on the road to resolve the political issues.
He said continuous hartals (shutdowns) and stone-pelting was not going to solve any issue. Such practices only add to the miseries of people, mar the education of students and snatch bread earning opportunity for the small traders, shopkeepers, transporters and labourers, he said.
The Chief Minister appealed to the people in general and youth in particular to help in restoring normalcy and calm. He said that he believes in the politics of principles, truthfulness, forthrightness and straightforwardness and shall continue to do so irrespective of the consequences.
He said hypocrisy is not his trait and he has never indulged in it. I am not for power politics; I am for principled politics and politics for the people of my state. Nothing is dearer to me than my people. I am here on this chair because of your support and trust. I will never let you down. I will stand for you and for your welfare ever, he asserted.


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## EjazR

*Militants kill kidnapped villager, IBN Live News*

Srinagar, Aug 15 (PTI) Militants killed a villager after kidnapping him from Sopore town of north Kashmir today, police said. The ultras picked up Abdul Rehman Mohalla from Dangerpora area, 55 kms from here, and killed him, they said. His body was later handed over to his parents, who laid it to rest. Police has registered a case and has begun investigations.PTI


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## EjazR

*Guv&#8217;s I-Day message*
&#8216;Revisit strategies of crowd control&#8217;
KT NEWS SERVICE
SRINAGAR, Aug 14: The Governor N N Vohra has asked the Security Forces to revisit their strategies and tactics of crowd control for securing maximum protection of human life to contain the cycle of violence in Kashmir.
In a message on the eve of Independence Day, the Governor has stressed the importance of every element of the civil society urgently organising itself to play a proactive role in promoting sanity and harmony.
Referring to the prevalent situation in the Kashmir Valley, the Governor said that all those involved in the recent protestations and the various political, religious and other elements who support their cause, must recognize that the cycle of violence has resulted only in causing loss and grief and further enhancing cynicism and despair. Such tragic losses, he said, must not continue to occur. He emphasized that all necessary steps to restore peace and normalcy must be taken on the most immediate basis, adding that once normalcy is effectively restored a purposeful dialogue must commence with all those who have been agitating in the past months. The Centre, on its part, would need to early launch and vigorously pursue a sustained political initiative in J&K, he added.
He called upon all political parties, social, cultural and religious organizations, and all other stakeholders in Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh to work together closely and determinedly for restoring normalcy and achieving the goal of peace, progress and prosperity in the state.
The Governor referred to the recent natural calamity which occurred in Leh and its surrounding areas causing huge loss of life and property, and conveyed his heartfelt sympathy to the bereaved families.
Vohra observed that due to sad happenings in Kashmir in the past two months, normalcy of life in the Valley has continued to be disrupted by an unending series of stone pelting protestations, burning of public property and attacks on the law enforcement agencies. These incidents, he said, have led to continuing confrontations with the security forces and generated a cycle of violence which has resulted in a large number of persons losing their lives, many of whom were young men and even women and children. He said that whatever may have been the whys and wherefors of the obtaining disorder, the loss of lives is an extremely sad consequence. He expressed his deep sympathy with the families who have lost their near and dear ones in this tumult. He said that the Security Forces, whose personnel have also suffered significant injuries, need to revisit their strategies and tactics of crowd control for securing maximum protection of human life.
The Governor said that our liberal democratic framework allows enormous scope for divergent viewpoints and various differences can and must be resolved through sustained dialogue and discussion and not through confrontations and violence. He said that a pragmatic initiative for early resolving the political issues which concern the people of the state needs to be carried forward. Multiple meaningful dialogues are also required to be carried out among all the divergent groups and between them and the mainstream political parties in the state.
The Governor said that the recurring calls for hartals, processions and day-to-day protestations have resulted in the stoppage of all business, trade and economic activities, with a particularly adverse consequence for those who earn their bread by day toil. He observed that the impaired functioning of the governmental machinery has impacted adversely on the delivery of public services and slowed down the entire developmental process.
Referring to the educational sector, the Governor observed that it has suffered the most irreparable damage. The continuing disturbed environment has resulted in the complete disruption of the academic schedules. The educational institutions have remained closed in the past weeks and the suspension of examination schedules and delays in the declaration of results has most adversely affected an entire generation of youth who are presently pursuing educational and training courses of various kinds. He said that the continuing turmoil had also brought the tourist activities to a quick end and adversely affected the livelihood of thousands of families who live off the tourist, travel and hospitality industry.
The Governor said that while taking every step to immediately restore normalcy we must also keep in mind the continuing threats from across the LoC and the very high danger of inimical elements from across exploiting a disturbed environment in the state. He said that while there was a decline in terrorist activities in 2009, there has been a significant increase in the attempts at infiltration since the beginning of this year. In this context, while the Security Forces continue to make supreme sacrifices in safeguarding our frontiers and combating militancy in the hinterland, they would also need to ensure that the rights of the people are respected and the law abiding citizens are not put to any avoidable inconvenience, he emphasized.
On the development scenario, the Governor said that like other states in the country, J&K has also been striving to march ahead in all arenas of human and economic development. However, due to prolonged period of militancy and recurring internal disturbances the overall development of the state has remained significantly deficient on several important fronts. He added that peace and normalcy is of crucial importance for attaining the largest welfare of all the people of J&K. Concerted efforts are required to be made to enhance the functioning of the administrative apparatus and promote honesty, efficiency, transparency and good governance in every arena of functioning. He said that we must work devotedly to build strong and vibrant Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh regions in which all our people lead satisfied lives in a harmonious environment. While greeting the people on this joyous occasion, he prayed for peace and prosperity in the state.


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## alibaz

EjazR said:


> lol. According to latest news, CM has said that no punishment should be given to the officer.
> 
> As someone wrote about it somewhere, only in a democracy this can happen. I think it was compared to case of Saddam Hussein or other dictators who never have shoes thrown at them



If no disciplinary action is taken against the officer then it shows weakness of CM not the greatness. Officer was there to ensure that discipline is maintained not to create a discipline situation by himself. CM hasn't excused him due to love for democracy or freedom of expression, if officer will be punished then he will become a local hero and will further aggravate law and order situation. 

So let us accept that this trend has gained momentum after US President Bush's incident. It has happened with many leaders of the world which can't be appreciated even in the name of freedom of expression.


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## KS

dabong1 said:


> If the indians had accepted the accession of hydrabad-jundagarh to pakistan then we would have accepted the same thing in kashmir..........but you invaded hydrabad-jundagarh saying that they where majority hindu areas so should join india and then we pakistani said the same thing should apply in kashmir.
> 
> Did india accept the accession of these two areas to pakistan....no



Dude i ll repeat wat I replied to Agno once:



> "We suceeded in Junagadh,U failed in Kashmir..As simple as that..why harping now if u were incapable at that time.?
> 
> this is like a student who failed in his exams asking the topper of his class also to be failed for the only reason they both study in the same class"


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## EjazR

^^Where did I say Omar as a CM is great. And ofcourse punishing him for throwing theshoe would be unnecessary since it didnteven hit him. he might end up being suspended or somthing I guess but lets see what happens. But you have to hand it to him when he said that It is better to throw shoes than stones or burn buildings.

Being CM of J&K is a difficult job, probably one of the most difficult in the world. You have Internatinal complications and internal disputes. I can appreciated that but there are only a very few people who I think are great and atleast he is not YET one of them,


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## EjazR

*Refrain from violence during Ramzan month: Omar to separatists - Hindustan Times*

Asking separatists to refrain from violence during the holy month of Ramzan, Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah on Sunday asked them to take advantage of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's statement that he was ready to consider autonomy if there was a consensus. At the same time, Omar
said the "trust deficit" between the Centre and people of the state can be bridged by "restoring autonomy".

"This is a historic opportunity for us (PM's announcement regarding granting of autonomy) and we must take advantage of it. I appeal to separatist leaders to come to the table for talks and play their role in solving the Kashmir issue," he said, addressing the Independence Day celebrations here.

During a meeting with an all-party delegation from Jammu and Kashmir, Singh had last week said he was ready to consider autonomy for the state if there was consensus among all political parties.

The Chief Minister also made a passionate appeal to the youth and separatists to stop the "cycle of violence".

"This cycle of violence may please be stopped. Today is the fourth day of holy month of Ramzan. I am not a Muslim scholar but a Muslim. The month of Ramzan teaches us to pray and maintain brotherhood. Let us not use force during this month," he said.

He asked the separatists to follow the foot steps of his late grandfather Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah, who was in jail for 23 years but did not put the people to difficulties.

"Let us come to the table and discuss autonomy, self rule," he said.

He said the Prime Minister is ready for talks on all issues, but appealed to the Centre not to forget the promises after normalcy is restored in the state.

Abdullah asked separatists leaders not to "use this holy month" for violence.

The chief minister said violence and hartals are not the medicine for curing the illness.

"For the last 20 years, Kashmiris have observed hartals for five years, traders could not do business for five years, children could not go to schools," he said.

"It takes two hands to clap. I am prepared to ask police and security forces not to use force if you stop stone pelting. I do not want you to indulge in stone pelting which is replied by fire and teargas shelling," he said.

"Please stop stone pelting and attacking police stations, railway stations and other public property," he said.

Omar announced that 50,000 youth will be engaged by the government within the next few months to improve the public distribution system.

"While Prime Minister has constituted the C Rangarajan committee to address the employment problem in Jammu and Kashmir, on the occasion of the holy days of Ramadan, I announce that the state government will engage 50,000 youth in the government within the next few months to improve the public delivery system in public services.


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## EjazR

*Kashmir Images :: Details*

Sameer Ahmad

Islam is a way of life. Its philosophy demands thatman not only follow it in his personal life, but that he also communicates it to others. In this respect, Islam, as well as being a personal matter, assumes the character of a universal mission.
Islam entails a total avoidance of confrontation and a strict adherence to persuasion as a means of carrying conviction. Persuasion is an easier course to adopt than that of clash

and confrontation. It should be emphasized that this does not indicate a preference for facility. What it does indicate is a deliberate avoidance of the impracticable in favor of the practicable and sustainable.
That is why, on all fronts, it is the policy of Islam to adopt the course, which is comparatively easier. In present times, it has been accepted throughout the world that striving towards worthy goals by peaceful methods is a fundamental human right.
Conversely, there is no instance in which violence is justifiable. It follows then that the Islamic method is that of confining oneself totally to the peaceful sphere and using the approved, peaceful means of the time, for the use of violence for the attainment of social, political and religious goals will be held to be un-Islamic. So far as the political system of Islam is concerned, this is a conditional, not an absolute injunction. Engaging in war and violence in order to establish it is in no way sanctioned in Islam. This is because, whenever violent activism is resorted to, it will clash with the existing system, which will, in turn, resort to force in order to suppress the movement. In this way, what had earlier been a lesser evil will now assume the proportions of a greater evil.
Killings are greater evils and in fact evil against humanity. Since last two months, we lost 50 lives We all know that baring a few, how rest got killed. For the last two months, none spoke against the violence committed by a section of people which became the cause of majority of these killings. Non spoke against stone pelting, arson, destruction of private and public properties, Govt records , restricting the movements of even ambulances None showed any concern on these alarming situations and none appealed concerned section of people not to resort to these kinds of violations which is at the cost of poor people of the State In fact impliedly it was encouraged by those whose interests were served by it, it was also serving the cause of many political parties, be that main stream parties or separatists.
*All of a sudden the tone has been changed and appeals are made to fight this agitation peacefully and even some said that the way the agitation is being fought by some people , it amounts to suicide and that they are not from us. Why after two months and that too when we lost 50 lives and why not before ? Is it that it served the object of those who initiated this agitation or tried to head the agitation? Is it that this match was for two months ?
Those who favor this are criminals according to Islamic principles, and will certainly merit God's punishment in the Hereafter. Now past is past . We must learn a lesson from all this and think for the future and unit one to all against those who believe in violence and or encourage violence in whatever form ,and particularly those who want to exploit the people irrespective of who is he and what he is and to fight such forces is also Jihad.*

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## EjazR

Policewomen attend celebrations for India's Independence Day in Srinagar, summer capital of Indian-controlled Kashmir, August 15, 2010






Police band attend celebrations for India's Independence Day in Srinagar, summer capital of Indian-controlled Kashmir, August 15, 2010. 





Policemen march during celebrations for India's Independence Day in Srinagar, summer capital of Indian-controlled Kashmir, August 15, 2010






Women cotingents of Jammu and Kashmir police marching at Bakshi Stadium in Srinagar





A Jammu and Kashmir policeman salutes during the Independence Day parade in Srinagar.


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## graphican

"Calm down people.. what if we have killed 1,00,000 of you.. we are offering you good 50,000 jobs. (one job for two heads rolled) What else you could have asked?" Now say thanks to Bharat Mata and sing Wand-e-Matram! 

Such a pity.. Such a pity..!


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## Spring Onion

graphican said:


> "Calm down people.. what if we have killed 1,00,000 of you.. we are offering you good 50,000 jobs. (one job for two heads rolled) What else you could have asked?" Now say thanks to Bharat Mata and sing Wand-e-Matram!
> 
> Such a pity.. Such a pity..!




and out of 50,000 49,000 will be in terrorist force controlled by Indian invaders from Army, who will kill more Kashmiris to prolong their invasion


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## Agnostic_Indian

graphican said:


> "Calm down people.. what if we have killed 1,00,000 of you.. we are offering you good 50,000 jobs. (one job for two heads rolled) What else you could have asked?" Now say thanks to Bharat Mata and sing Wand-e-Matram!
> 
> Such a pity.. Such a pity..!



Lakh's of people get killed in pakistan also and only job available to pakistani's is to join terrorist groups.kasab was just one of them.

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## civfanatic

EjazR said:


> lol. According to latest news, CM has said that no punishment should be given to the officer.
> 
> As someone wrote about it somewhere, only in a democracy this can happen. I think it was compared to case of Saddam Hussein or other dictators who never have shoes thrown at them



Sorry Ejaz if you wish to believe establishment propaganda that is fine but the truth is that after this incident police started a smear campaign against him and he seems to be punished severly to be admitted in ICU at SKIMS.


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## civfanatic

No regret about shoe incident says Jan's family


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

Guys I have honestly with not a scant hint of bias dwelved on this shoe throwing issue over the past 24 hours. I think that politicians do not care if shoes are thrown at them and poor, frustrated people are not using the proper forum to address their grievances with a given government. They only bring physical harm to themselves and put their family and friends in the direct spotlight of security forces. I still have yet to see anyone throwing a shoe or pissing on a taliban or terrorist leader.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Kashmiri protester throws shoe at top Indian official ​*
By Leo Horner
Monday, 16 August 2010

A policeman hurled a shoe at a senior Indian politician as a protest against government policy in his region. 


The shoe was thrown during a parade to mark Indian Independence Day in Srinagar, and narrowly missed Omar Abdullah, Indian-administered Kashmir
's chief minister. Abdul Ahad Jan, who threw the shoe, also waved a black flag  a symbol of the Kashmiri separatist movement  as he was arrested and led away.

Mr Jan had already been suspended from the police force, and was known be "mentally unsound", police said. It is unclear why he was allowed into the parade's VIP enclosure.

The last two months have seen an upsurge in violence in Kashmir, the worst in the region in more than two years. Since early June, 57 people have been killed in clashes between demonstrators and police. Although the independence day parade itself was relatively peaceful, four people were killed when the authorities broke up anti-government protests on Friday and Saturday. Mr Abdullah used the day to express regret at the violence, saying that he felt "gloom and bereavement" over the killings. 

Mr Abdullah is not the first Indian politician to be the target of footwear. Since George Bush dodged a pair of Iraqi shoes in 2008, shoe-throwing has become an established means of protest in Indian politics. 

Last year, a shoe thrown by an engineering student narrowly missed the Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh, during an election rally in Ahmedabad. Two weeks earlier, India's Home Minister also had a "size eight Reebok" thrown at him by a journalist.

Kashmiri protester throws shoe at top Indian official - Asia, World - The Independent


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## S_O_C_O_M




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## S_O_C_O_M

*Indian state terrorism against Kashmiris, minorities flayed​*
London, August 15 (KMS): Kashmiri, Sikh and Naga Diaporas in London, representing a common front against Indian imperialism, have condemned the oppression and human rights violations by Indian troops in their territories.

A joint statement issued in London on 64th anniversary of Indias independence, reiterated to continue the liberation struggles in their respective territories to secure freedom for their nations. It appealed the international community to dismantle the illegal occupation of their homelands by India.

The statement said, Since 1947 India has forcibly denied our sovereign rights under international law. India has snatched our right to determine our own political status, to control our natural resources ourselves and to protect our populations and territories from human rights abuses amounting to genocide.

The statement said that India was not sincere to settle the disputes on Kashmir, Khalistan, Nagalim, Assam, Manipur and Bodoland. All the disputes have arisen from a common source which is India, they added.

Flaying the deployment of occupation troops in the territories, the statement said that Indian troops were killing hundreds of thousands of people with impunity to muzzle their just voice for their right to self-determination. The occupation authorities were committing extra-judicial killings, disappearances, rape, torture, illegal detentions and extortion in these areas, it maintained.

Quoting the August 2009, United States Commission for International Religious Freedoms report, which put India on its watch list of states that fail to protect minority religious groups, it said that recent years have seen massive rights abuses by the troops directed towards Christians, Muslims and Sikhs in Indian occupied territories. The peace and stability in South Asia can not prevail till the resolution of these disputes, it added.

Indian state terrorism against Kashmiris, minorities flayed | Kashmir Media Service


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## paksarzameen



Reactions: Like Like:
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## civfanatic

> Dole is not the answer, dignity is
> *Shoe hurled at Chief Minister has a lot to convey. PM needs to go beyond just a package
> GUEST COLUMN BY SEEMA MUSTAFA*
> 
> A sub inspector sitting in the VIP enclosure at the Independence Day enclosure threw a well-polished shoe at Jammu and Kashmir chief minister Omar Abdullah. And within minutes became a hero in the Valley with the internet buzzing with comments about his &#8216;heroic&#8217; deed.
> Omar Abdullah did not blink an eye, went on to take the salute and remained a picture of total composure. The tragedy is that he has lost the goodwill of his people, and there were not many sympathetic voices for him as the reactions started pouring in. The policeman will be dealt with, no doubt firmly, but the government of Jammu and Kashmir will have to sit up and take serious stock of its isolation in the state.
> Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in the last week has come out with a long appeal to the people of the state to abjure violence, and to embrace peace and reconciliation. It was a speech high on rhetoric and very very low on substance. Except for announcing an expert panel of some corporate honchos to recommend job opportunities for the young people of Jammu and Kashmir, there was nothing else that the Prime Minister had to contribute to the ongoing crisis in the state.
> There were no suggestions, there were no proposals, it was almost as if the speech was forced as the government had come to the conclusion that it needed to make a gesture. In fact, if the good doctor had dispensed with the rhetoric altogether and instead focused on substantive immediate proposals he would have earned some goodwill and response. The silence from the state was almost ominous as this time around most leaders and political groups did not even bother to reject the speech as it did little to arouse interest and confidence. Omar Abdullah tried to announce some jobs et cetera, but this was completely overshadowed by the brown shoe that missed him by inches.
> The separatists, or more specifically Syed Ali Shah Geelani, have drawn a long plan to ensure that the Ramzan days are not spent in just fasting, but in action. Strikes, protests have become the order of the day. It is becoming increasingly clear to the world that the agitation in the Valley has acquired a momentum of its own and will not be quelled by batons and bullets.
> The tragedy is that New Delhi has still not woken up. It is still hoping that the intensity will pass, and the National Conference or the Congress or the Governor depending whose rule it finally is, will be able to handle the situation. A security expert perhaps spoke for the top echelons of government when he said, &#8220;we have gone through so much we will go through this as well.&#8221; What he did not say, and was obviously not interested in even asking was &#8216; at what cost?&#8217;
> And that is the problem. There is a disinterest, a disconnect that prevents the rest of India from even recognizing what is going on in Kashmir. The security agencies, including the intelligence, really does not want to even accept that the protests are spontaneous, that the people are angry and unhappy, and that the pressure cooker is now boiling without a valve to let off steam. And the politicians, including those who matter in the current dispensation, take their cue from the bureaucrats because they themselves have little knowledge and understanding of any situation.
> The result is the current protest in Kashmir is seen through a security prism, and not as a protest involving the people. The prejudice against Kashmir is at its peak in Delhi with all political parties ---Left to Right---totally unable and unwilling to take action. The proposal to send an all party parliamentary delegation to the Valley has come to nought, and there is not a single political leader in Delhi today who one can speak to on Kashmir in the hope he or she will understand and urge action. The corruption in the Commonwealth Games had the government acting, with the Prime Minister taking command and constituting a Group of Ministers to handle the crisis as the recognized top body.
> But the situation in Kashmir has not elicited the same reaction. Dr Manmohan Singh has in fact, reversed what he said himself earlier. The declared intention of the central government was to generate a dialogue so that a consensus on a way forward, on a broad definition of autonomy, and other such matters could be reached. He has now said in what is a complete turn about, that autonomy can only be discussed if there is a consensus. And who is going to help bring about that consensus? No answer.
> There was not a word in the Prime Minister's speech about resuming talks with all the political parties, the separatists and now the youth within a specified time frame. It is absolutely essential for the centre and the state apparatus to reach out to the people and bring into play a series of measures that will address the anger to some extent at least, and give a reprieve from violence. Dole is not the answer, dignity and respect is.
> A beginning can be made by:
> -releasing the young people who have been arrested in the past weeks as well as the political prisoners;
> - withdrawal of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act in suggested phases, within a specified time limit. After all the withdrawal of the Army from Srinagar ten years ago worked, despite the hesitation of the government and the cynicism of political parties;
> - a judicial commission headed by a well known, impartial panel of judges should immediately be appointed to look into the missing persons charges. Again a time frame for the report and implementation of recommendations should be fixed.
> - the National Human Rights Commission should be directed to constitute a team of eminent citizens to hold a Peoples Hearing into the charges of human rights violations.
> - a political panel of credible MPs from different political parties should begin consultations with the youth.
> One can go on and on. There is so much that needs to be done and this has nothing with handing out money as if Kashmiris are standing with begging bowls. Some are, but the people know and despite them. Immediate action should be taken to restore some level of trust so that talks can begin immediately at all levels, and with all concerned sides. One has written a lot about this, so no need to go into the specifics again.
> The governments will do well to remember that the shoe hurled by the sub inspector reflects anger, and if this has affected the Jammu and Kashmir police then the need to move forward acquires even greater urgency.
> Prime Minister Singh will do well to remember that people are not the Congress party. They are not fools and do not take kindly to being treated as such. Rhetoric might please some in Delhi, it has stopped working for the Kashmiris a long long time ago.



Dole is not the answer dignity is Lastupdate:- Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com


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## ejaz007

*Policeman hurls shoe at IHK chief minister*

SRINAGAR: A policeman flung a shoe at Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) Chief Minister Omar Abdullah at an Independence Day event on Sunday, which saw thousands of Kashmiris in the streets protesting against Indian rule.

Security was tight across the Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley for the annual national holiday, which locals traditionally mark as a black day. At the main official function in a sports stadium in the Kashmiri summer capital Srinagar, Abdullah had just unfurled the Indian national flag when the show was thrown. The minister was not hit and the policeman, who had chanted we want freedom was quickly overpowered by bodyguards. Police identified the attacker as Abdul Ahad Jan. He is mentally unsound and facing charges in a criminal case. He has already been suspended for his criminal activities, a police statement said. Hurling a shoe is better than hurling a stone, Abdullah commented after the incident. The chief minister heads the National Conference, the main pro-India party in IHK.

Stone-throwing protesters have been defying almost daily curfews over the past two months and clashing with police in Srinagar. afp

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## indianpatriot

cliche.......


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## Indian Gurkha

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *Indian state terrorism against Kashmiris, minorities flayed​*
> London, August 15 (KMS): Kashmiri, Sikh and Naga Diaporas in London, representing a common front against Indian imperialism, have condemned the oppression and human rights violations by Indian troops in their territories.
> 
> A joint statement issued in London on 64th anniversary of Indias independence, reiterated to continue the liberation struggles in their respective territories to secure freedom for their nations. It appealed the international community to dismantle the illegal occupation of their homelands by India.
> 
> The statement said, Since 1947 India has forcibly denied our sovereign rights under international law. India has snatched our right to determine our own political status, to control our natural resources ourselves and to protect our populations and territories from human rights abuses amounting to genocide.
> 
> The statement said that India was not sincere to settle the disputes on Kashmir, Khalistan, Nagalim, Assam, Manipur and Bodoland. All the disputes have arisen from a common source which is India, they added.
> 
> Flaying the deployment of occupation troops in the territories, the statement said that Indian troops were killing hundreds of thousands of people with impunity to muzzle their just voice for their right to self-determination. The occupation authorities were committing extra-judicial killings, disappearances, rape, torture, illegal detentions and extortion in these areas, it maintained.
> 
> Quoting the August 2009, United States Commission for International Religious Freedoms report, which put India on its watch list of states that fail to protect minority religious groups, it said that recent years have seen massive rights abuses by the troops directed towards Christians, Muslims and Sikhs in Indian occupied territories. The peace and stability in South Asia can not prevail till the resolution of these disputes, it added.
> 
> Indian state terrorism against Kashmiris, minorities flayed | Kashmir Media Service



As far as I know the Nagas are now demanding the integration of all Naga inhabited areas of North East to create a greater state of Nagalim within the ambit of the Constitution not a sovereign state.Khalistan movement as we all know is now all dead. Wonder how these seccessionist organizations that operate in other countries conveniently forget ground realities..Much ado about nothing.


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## nanmun

Can someone post detailed info on the kind of demands made by Nagas?


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## EjazR

civfanatic said:


> Sorry Ejaz if you wish to believe establishment propaganda that is fine but the truth is that after this incident police started a smear campaign against him and he seems to be punished severly to be admitted in ICU at SKIMS.



*Hospitalised*

Hakeem Irfan
Srinagar Aug 15: Abdul Ahad Jan, 52, who was arrested for hurling a shoe at Chief Minister Omar Abdullah during the August 15 function at Bakhshi Stadium, was admitted at SKIMS for accelerated hypertension Sunday evening. According to doctors, Jan also had some minor bruises when he was brought to the hospital.

"Jan has been admitted in hospital for accelerated hypertension," said Medical Superintendent SKIMS, Dr Syed Amin Tabish.
Jan is being treated at SKIMS under detention and is likely to remain there for next few days.
"He will be given anti-hypertensive drugs and will take some time to recover. It is a gradual process. But hopefully he will be much better tomorrow," said Dr Tabish.
Meanwhile, doctors present at SKIMS said Jan had minor bruises on his body at the time of his preliminary examination at the hospital.
"He had some minor bruises on body," said a doctor pleading anonymity.


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## Devil Soul

16 August 2010 Last updated at 01:30 GMT 
The angry housewives setting Kashmir ablaze
By Soutik Biswas
BBC News, Srinagar

Whenever there are protests demanding "freedom from India" in her crowded neighbourhood in Srinagar, Firdousi Farooq makes a point of participating, her four-year-old son in tow.

Joining such demonstrations in Indian-administered Kashmir these days is fraught with risks.

Security forces have often fired on stone-pelting protesters, killing over 50 people, mostly teenagers, in the past two months as the valley has been convulsed by what most locals call a fierce peoples' "uprising" against India.

So what makes a mother of three hit the angry streets of Kashmir?

*Ms Farooq's eldest son, Wamiq, was killed in January when a tear gas shell fired by the police exploded on his head.

The 14-year-old top-of-the-class student, who loved watching cartoons and dreamed of becoming a doctor, had stepped out for a game of cricket.

The police report describes him as a "miscreant who was part of an unlawful assembly", at which the forces had fired tear gas shells in self-defence.

Very few - including his neighbours, lawyers and journalists - believe this.*

*'Subjugation'*
Sitting in her home in the crowded old city, Ms Farooq says she had decided to hit the streets after her son's "murder".

*"Why should I not protest? Why should I not pick up a stone? I am doing this in the honour of my martyred son. I am doing this for azadi (freedom) from subjugation and repression," she says defiantly*.

Firdousi Farooq is just another addition to the burgeoning army of women who have been taking part in the protests in Kashmir this summer.

You see them on the streets; you see them in the pictures.

Young and old, middle-class and poor, mostly dressed in floral tunics, they defy the armed forces, pelting stones at them, shouting slogans and singing anti-India songs. When night falls, some of them even lead protests with their children.

Out of more than 50 people killed in the latest round of violence, three have been women.

*Yasmeen Jan, 25, was standing near a window inside her house in Batamaloo on 6 July, watching a demonstration wind by when she was hit by a bullet allegedly fired by security forces.*

"Mummy maey aaw heartas fire" (Mummy, my heart has taken fire), she told her mother, turning away from the window, before collapsing on the floor, dead.

Fifteen-year-old Afroza Teli took a bullet in her head during a protest demonstration in Khrew village in Pulwana district on 1 August. She died later in Srinagar.

Angry Kashmiris set fire to an irrigation office, a revenue office and a court building after her death. A police station and a police vehicle were also set on fire.

*Aisha Shiekh, a 55-year-old housewife and resident of Srinagar, was allegedly hit by a stone flung from a sling shot by the security forces when she was walking with her granddaughter to buy milk on 7 August. She died from her wounds a day later.*

This is not the first time that women in Kashmir have come out in droves to protest, but their numbers and impact appear to be greater than ever before.

"This time the intensity of protests by women is more. You can also see more women protesting. Women have borne the brunt of the Kashmir conflict, and it is not surprising that they are at the end of their tether," says Kashmiri journalist Afsana Rashid.

*Rape*
As Bashir Ahmed Dabla, who teaches sociology at Kashmir University says, Kashmir's women have "seen their children husbands and fathers being killed in the conflict, and routinely humiliated by the security forces"

*Studies have shown there are up to 32,000 widows of the two-decade-long conflict in the Kashmir valley, and nearly 100,000 orphans. Another 10,000 men have allegedly disappeared during the conflict, says a rights group.
*
*Then there are some 400 "half-widows", whose husbands disappeared in the custody of troops or police. Women have also been the target of rape by the security forces.
*
"Women have been compelled to come out and protest because of the injustice and repression," says Professor Dabla.

Parveena Ahangar, a softly spoken housewife turned feisty activist, has been making a regular trek from her Gangbugh residence to the city's downtown every month, to protest against the disappearances during the conflict.

*Ms Ahangar's son Javed was 16 when he was picked up by security forces in 1990 from the family home. He never returned.*

The indefatigable woman has travelled around the world to highlight her cause, leaving behind her husband, debilitated and out of work after 10 surgeries, and her remaining three children, including a daughter.

"As long as I am alive, my struggle with go on. I want a simple answer from the authorities: Where did these men go?"

The coming out of women in the Muslim-dominated Kashmir valley has been helped by the fact that they have been traditionally freer than their counterparts in many parts of the world.

They have not observed the purdah, or faced religious or cultural segregation from men, say sociologists. Men and women have always worked in the farms together, prayed side by side in mosques and participated in religious congregations.

*Key role*
They have traditionally played an important role in the neighbourhood citizens' committees, preparing food for their protesting menfolk and taking the injured to hospitals.

The pro-freedom movement has also thrown up a number of women leaders - both fundamentalists and liberals.

"Kashmiri women are among the most politicised women in the subcontinent," says Professor Dabla.

*Zaitun Khan, a 20-something homemaker, is one of them - she remembers participating in "peaceful" protests when she was in college, but is now determined to hit the streets to demand freedom.*

*Her brother Fayaz Ahmed Wani, who worked as a labourer in the floriculture department of the government, was hit by a bullet fired by the forces and killed while on his way to work on 6 July*.

*Mr Wani was 29, and left behind his wife and two daughters.*

*"I will go and join the protests now," says Ms Khan.

"He never protested or threw a stone in his life. But he died. How many more men will have to die? I want to go out and protest and demand freedom. Freedom to live."
*




Women have joined protests in large numbers





Ms Farooq joined protests after her son was killed





Women have borne the brunt of the conflict





Women have led night protests in Kashmir


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## amit30

Asim Aquil said:


> Why shoe? Should have been gobar



He is not Pakistans president Asif ali Zardari i think people saving gobar for him


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## s90

Jacobtheindoamerican said:


> YouTube - An old man threw shoes on President of Pakistan Asif Ali Zardari
> 
> The real shoe being thrown has been censored by the Pakistan media sadly. So no footage.



Censored?. Media was not allowed in that gathering.


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## IndianRobo

Well, Omar deserves it, He should resign, Kashmir is not the right place for an Un-Professional amateur to Begin his carrier


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## amit30

IndianRobo said:


> Well, Omar deserves it, He should resign, Kashmir is not the right place for an Un-Professional amateur to Begin his carrier



i think we have give all power to militery for five years so all terrorism in J&K will be finish by them


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## IndianRobo

amit30 said:


> i think we have give all power to militery for five years so all terrorism in J&K will be finish by them



Thats Not Possible, India tried Armed Forces Special Power act, remember??? Get presidents rule over J&K and Automatically Armed forces would come into Power, would replace the CRPF... And Yes If Only that could Happen


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## Jade

*Kashmir is India&#8217;s integral part: PM
*
Says dialogue only within this framework

Sheikh Ahmed

New Delhi, Aug 15: Asking agitating youth in Kashmir to end violence, Prime Minister Sunday said within the framework of the State &#8216;being an integral part of India&#8217;, New Delhi was willing to move forward in any talks with those who abjure violence.

Addressing 64th Independence Day function from the ramparts of the historic Red Fort against the backdrop of recent unrest in Kashmir, Singh expressed regret over the loss of lives in the two-month-long agitation in Kashmir which has left about 58 civilians dead.

"The years of violence should now end,&#8221; Singh said in his speech delivered in Urdu.

He asked the Kashmiri youth to end violence as it would not benefit anyone. Underlining that Kashmir is an integral part of India, Singh said, "Within this framework, we are ready to move forward in any talks which would increase the partnership of the common man in governance and also enhance their welfare."

He said the government is ready to talk to every person or group which abjures violence.
Recalling his recent meeting with political parties from Jammu and Kashmir where he had expressed willingness to consider autonomy within Indian constitution if there was consensus, he said, "We will endeavour to take this process forward."

Singh at the All Party meeting, which was attended by all parties barring the PDP, had urged the people to give peace a chance and assured to address the sense of alienation of people through political means. He had said if there was a wide consensus in Jammu and Kashmir, political devolution could be considered within the four walls of the constitution. He also set up a high-level expert committee headed by C Ranagarajan to formulate job plan for Jammu and Kashmir

On relations with Pakistan, Prime Minister said the government wants to resolve all differences with Pakistan but made it clear that the dialogue cannot go far unless terrorism emanating from there ends.
"As far as Pakistan is concerned, we expect from them that they would let their territory to be used for acts of terrorism against India. We have been emphasizing this in all our discussions with Pakistan. If this is not done, we cannot progress far in our dialogue,&#8221; he added.


______________________________

It is great that, the Indian PM from historic Red Fort on August 15 has made it clear that the solution to Kashmir is within the framework of Constitution, laying other speculations to rest

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Ishan

JAI HIND..!!!!!


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## IndianRobo

*Sing Is King*​


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## gurjot

let this statement to be louder


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## Agnostic_Indian

Kashmir is our's..JAI HIND.


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## SBD-3

Jacobtheindoamerican said:


> YouTube - An old man threw shoes on President of Pakistan Asif Ali Zardari
> 
> The real shoe being thrown has been censored by the Pakistan media sadly. So no footage.



I dont know why do you guys come up with *self thought claims*....For you're information GEO TV was banned for reporting this...and furthermore, no media was allowed inside...so care do some research before wasting a post and our reading time



> Kaira said that no television cameras were allowed inside the convention centre for security reasons


Dunya TV - Pakistan | Shoes thrown at Zardari in Birmingham
Shoe thrown at Pakistan President Zardari in Birmingham: report - International Business Times
Shoes hurled at Zardari during Birmingham rally, Pak Govt. denies incident - Oneindia News


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## HitNRun

Kashmir is a Muslim state and according to UNo resoutions its disputed land.... 
any statement by Indians that its a integral part of India is living in fools paradise.....

Kashmire is a Part of Pakistan and soon you all indians will see it with your eyes...


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## SBD-3

No matter whatever you post....Kashmir remains a disputed region...and that's a fact.Even by posting a billion such posts, you can't change it


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## SBD-3

no indian member viewing this....amazing!!!!


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## Iggy

Already discussed in another thread about it..dont wanna start it all over again..


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## gurjot

HitNRun said:


> Kashmir is a Muslim state and according to UNo resoutions its disputed land....
> any statement by Indians that its a integral part of India is living in fools paradise.....
> 
> Kashmire is a Part of Pakistan and soon you all indians will see it with your eyes...





---------- Post added at 05:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:31 PM ----------




hasnain0099 said:


> No matter whatever you post....Kashmir remains a disputed region...and that's a fact.Even by posting a billion such posts, you can't change it



ya it will remain as an indian,even after iterating billions of times.


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## gurjot

hasnain0099 said:


> no indian member viewing this....amazing!!!!


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## Jade

hasnain0099 said:


> No matter whatever you post....Kashmir remains a disputed region...and that's a fact.Even by posting a billion such posts, you can't change it




These words have not emanated from some anonymous bloggers like you and me. It has come from the Indian PMand there lies the difference


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## SBD-3

jade1982 said:


> These words have not emanated from some anonymous bloggers like you and me. It has come from the Indian PM&#8230;and there lies the difference



But Kashmir is still recognized as a disputed region.....and I think i dont need to give you the names list should I?


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## IndianRobo

HitNRun said:


> Kashmir is a Muslim state and according to UNo resoutions its disputed land....
> any statement by Indians that its a integral part of India is living in fools paradise.....
> 
> Kashmire is a Part of Pakistan and soon you all indians will see it with your eyes...



Kashmir is an Indian state with majority as muslims, Once a separate state was formed for the sake of Muslim's and there community, If kashmiris are not happy they can Migrate to other part of of the world, Can Leave India Once and For all if they wish to....

And Yes India Is Indeed Sharing its western Boundry with fools Paradise, But that dosent make us Live in one...

Reactions: Like Like:
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## gurjot

hasnain0099 said:


> But Kashmir is still recognized as a disputed region.....and I think i dont need to give you the names list should I?



india dont recognize it as disputed area.rest is displayed in heading.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## SBD-3

IndianRobo said:


> Kashmir is an Indian state with majority as muslims, Once a separate state was formed for the sake of Muslim's and there community, If kashmiris are not happy they can Migrate to other part of of the world, Can Leave India Once and For all if they wish to....



how stupid....now i somewhat expect such arguments....not your fault


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## SBD-3

gurjot said:


> india dont recognize it as disputed area.rest is displayed in heading.


but closing you're eyes dont make it a dark night


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## IndianRobo

hasnain0099 said:


> how stupid....now i somewhat expect such arguments....not your fault



Something which You cant understand, should Never be labelled Stupid.... What is that you feel stupid in my Point?


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## gurjot

hasnain0099 said:


> but closing you're eyes dont make it a dark night



lets c who goes to pak side


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## SBD-3

IndianRobo said:


> Something which You cant understand, should Never be labelled Stupid.... What is that you feel stupid in my Point?


So what i can imply is that India is a land hungry country???

---------- Post added at 05:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:14 PM ----------




gurjot said:


> lets c who goes to pak side



Irrelvent argument....


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## gurjot

Irrelvent argument....[/QUOTE said:


> i wanted to say india have a stronger side and all major powers r with india


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## you are fired

hasnain0099 said:


> but closing you're eyes dont make it a dark night



and Pakistan dream for Kashmir is just wet dream better you wakeful or you will loss Baluchistan 

fir kahu ge 

naa kuda mila na sanam


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## SBD-3

gurjot said:


>



cuz usually whenever i see a thread opened here there are a few indian avatar in "users currently active on this thread"


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## IndianRobo

hasnain0099 said:


> So what i can imply is that India is a land hungry country???



Yes, India is a Land Hungry Country like any other, and Does not want to Divide itself Because of Some Fanatics, we rather prefer to kick them out, Rather getting divided

And Those who do not want to Live here, are free to walk away.... They have no right to take the Land Along with them...If freedom is all what they want, Get the Hell Out of My Country Why waste time Protesting with the help of very well known External forces?

Reactions: Like Like:
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## DESERT FIGHTER

you are fired said:


> and Pakistan dream for Kashmir is just wet dream better you wakeful or you will loss Baluchistan
> 
> fir kahu ge
> 
> naa kuda mila na sanam



 Sunny boys its time to wake up n smell the burnt veges!
Balouchistan my home province aint going any where but Kashmir is slipping look at the recent 57 plus killing by indian occupiers!! 

They only threw stones and RAISED SLOGANS LIKE ..........FREE KASHMIR! Even ur puppet CM got a shoe up his arse!!

Wake up kiddo... This aint a INDIAN WET DREAM... Its REAL LIFE.


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## gurjot

hasnain0099 said:


> cuz usually whenever i see a thread opened here there are a few indian avatar in "users currently active on this thread"



man!! wat will happen 2 u, if u start to repeat same thing on every thread .u can understand.we say same thing ,same is with u.no result come out.


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## gurjot

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Sunny boys its time to wake up n smell the burnt veges!
> Balouchistan my home province aint going any where but Kashmir is slipping look at the recent 57 plus killing by indian occupiers!!
> 
> They only threw stones and RAISED SLOGANS LIKE ..........FREE KASHMIR! Even ur puppet CM got a shoe up his arse!!
> 
> Wake up kiddo... This aint a INDIAN WET DREAM... Its REAL LIFE.



man this is our PM saying ,not any author is saying.


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## SBD-3

you are fired said:


> and Pakistan dream for Kashmir is just wet dream better you wakeful or you will loss Baluchistan
> 
> fir kahu ge
> 
> naa kuda mila na sanam


well a typical reply....India is already witnessing its ground shirinking in Afghanistan boy..have you forgotten that India is presuading US to not to leave afghanistan..once BLA sheter is out they will die....and yes Kashmir is kashmiries they should be given right of self determination...no matter whatever you're PM speaks they dont stop saying "we want freedom" so i dont know should I laugh on this or not well I decide not to....here is the reference enjoy ma man
With Pakistan in mind, India warns of interference in Afghanistan

More at : With Pakistan in mind, India warns of interference in Afghanistan http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...of-interference-in-afghanistan_100407602.html


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## SBD-3

IndianRobo said:


> *Yes, India is a Land Hungry Country like any other*, and Does not want to Divide itself Because of Some Fanatics, we rather prefer to kick them out, Rather getting divided
> 
> And Those who do not want to Live here, are free to walk away.... They have no right to take the Land Along with them...If freedom is all what they want, Get the Hell Out of My Country Why waste time Protesting with the help of very well known External forces?



Thank you for helping me prove that India is a land hungry country......just hold your view and dont deviate from this now


----------



## gurjot

hasnain0099 said:


> well a typical reply....India is already witnessing its ground shirinking in Afghanistan boy..have you forgotten that India is presuading US to not to leave afghanistan..once BLA sheter is out they will die....and yes Kashmir is kashmiries they should be given right of self determination...no matter whatever you're PM speaks they dont stop saying "we want freedom" so i dont know should I laugh on this or not well I decide not to....here is the reference enjoy ma man
> With Pakistan in mind, India warns of interference in Afghanistan
> 
> More at : With Pakistan in mind, India warns of interference in Afghanistan With Pakistan in mind, India warns of interference in Afghanistan



india have already told that they will stay in afghanistan whether u.s goes out or remain in but it would be more usefull if u.s stays there.and generally do u think that u.s will permanently leave the afganistan.they invested billions n gave u billions and u think they will go empty handed.this is critical region and area like afgh cant be left


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## IndianRobo

hasnain0099 said:


> Thank you for helping me prove that India is a land hungry country......just hold your view and dont deviate from this now



My Pleasure, I am ready to say this anywhere and every where, along with those few lines which You forgot Intentionally or Un intentionally to Bold


----------



## Jade

hasnain0099 said:


> But Kashmir is still recognized as a disputed region.....and I think i dont need to give you the names list should I?



As far I know India never considered Kashmir a disputed region. Ok if you argue that UN resolution consider Kashmir a disputed regionthen the UN resolution should be discarded, as the dynamics of the world has changed a lot in last half a century. No country in the world is ever going to compromise on its territorial integrity, least of India (where every thing is going right for it). The need of the hour is not the relevancy of the UN resolution but how to have a just solution that is beneficial to all the parties in the region. Musharraf Kashmir idea could be a starting point for discussion.


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## SBD-3

gurjot said:


> man this is our PM saying ,not any author is saying.


So if your PM says that its night night 12 at noon 12 should we all take it as a midnight 

just a request 
why dont you ask you PM to make a statement that "India will not allow kashmiries the right of self determination as its a land hungry county"


----------



## Spring Onion

On August 15th 2010 Kashmiris observed Indian independence day as BLACK Day in their country Occupied Jammu And Kashmir.

Last year on August 14th, 2009 The Kashmiris observed Independence day of Pakistani in their country Occupied Jammu and Kashmir, by hoisting Pakistan flag and burning Indian flag.

MMS should go and figure his claims are hollow 



*Pak flags hoisted in IHK; Hurriyat leader arrested *

Updated at: 1725 PST, Friday, August 14, 2009
SRINAGAR: *The green flags of Pakistan were hoisted in various areas of Indian held Kashmir on the Independence Day of Pakistan; while, Hurriyat leader Yasmeen Raja has been arrested.*
According to Kashmir Media Service, *people took to streets in various Sri Nagar areas including Habba Kadal, Raj Bagh and Khanqa-e-Mualla and raised slogans of &#8216;Pakistan Zindabad&#8217;, &#8216;Jeway Jeway Pakistan&#8217; and &#8216;Hum kia chahtey hein&#8212;azaadi&#8217; with Pak flags raised in the air.*

*Kashmiri youth resorted to fireworks in happiness on the Independence Day of Pakistan.*

Meantime, Hurriyat leader Yasmeen Raja was arrested when she attended a ceremony held to celebrate the national day of Pakistan. Raja also hoisted the national flag of Pakistan on her office.

*Indian police arrested some other women as well.

Various separatist organisations on Thursday congratulated people of Pakistan on its 62nd independence day and also appealed masses to observe complete shutdown on August 15.*

Congratulating people of Pakistan, Hurriyat Conference (M) in a statement said, &#8220;We all pray for the peace and stability of Pakistan.&#8221;
Hurriyat (M) appealed masses to observe complete shutdown on August 15 against what it termed continued Indian occupation in Kashmir. 

Tehreek-I-Hurriyat Jammu Kashmir spokesperson in a statement said: &#8220;Pakistan is the result of sacrifices of lakhs of people. Pakistan is the centre of hopes of Muslims throughout the world. Every Muslim is concerned about the safety and security of this great nation.&#8221;

The spokesperson further said: &#8220;Pakistan is battling against odds. Muslims around the globe are praying for peace and stability of the nation.&#8221;

THJK has appealed masses to observe August 14 as prayer day and August 15 as black day. 

The party also condemned the fudging of DNA samples of Shopian rape and murder victims.

&#8220;It is a clear indication that the government is continuously trying to hide the real culprits and just lengthening the case by involving CBI,&#8221; the statement read.

In a separate statement, Muslim League said: &#8220;Pakistan has always been our friend and helped us at all crucial junctures. The support of Pakistan is still necessary and we congratulate the nation for its 62nd independence anniversary.&#8221; 

Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (R) chief organizer Farooq Ahmad Dar alias Bitta Karate said: &#8220;We express greetings to people and government of Pakistan and pray for peace and stability and integrity of the nation. We wish for a strong and vibrant Pakistan backing Kashmiris in their just struggle for independence and right of self-determination. We hope that Pakistan will continue with its moral, diplomatic and political support to Kashmiris.&#8221; 

Dar also appealed masses to observe August 15 as &#8216;black day&#8217; and observe complete shutdown.

Meanwhile, JKLF (R) has strongly condemned the fudging of DNA samples in Shopian case.

Jammu Kashmir Salvation Movement also congratulated Pakistan and appealed masses to observe strike on 15 August. 

Tehreek Wahadt-e-Islami has also called up for making Youm-e-Pakistan a success. 
Wahadat spokesman said, &#8220;The Youm-e-Pakistan would be observed across Kashmir as Youm-e-Dua for Pakistan.&#8221; 

Pak flags hoisted in IHK; Hurriyat leader arrested - GEO.tv


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## gurjot

hasnain0099 said:


> So if your PM says that its night night 12 at noon 12 should we all take it as a midnight
> 
> just a request
> why dont you ask you PM to make a statement that "India will not allow kashmiries the right of self determination as its a land hungry county"



we trust him n watever he is saying.he will not bow down the feelings of indians as integrity of india


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## IndianRobo

hasnain0099 said:


> So if your PM says that its night night 12 at noon 12 should we all take it as a midnight
> 
> just a request
> why dont you ask you PM to make a statement that "India will not allow kashmiries the right of self determination as its a land hungry county"



But, if He got the Capacity and Intention to do so, Yes, he can see One Billion+ Followers 

And PM already said, If kashmiris are ready for talks, We can settle it ones and For all Diplomatically.... Its Upto them, either take it or face it


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## Materialistic

> These words have not emanated from some anonymous bloggers like you and me. It has come from the Indian PM&#8230;and there lies the difference



Lol, as if this is the first time any Indian PM saying, or does it actually makes a difference!! 

Anyway, We can't deny him the right to let him make himself Happy!! 
And that also on your Independence day.



> But, if He got the Capacity and Intention to do so, Yes, he can see One Billion+ Followers
> 
> And PM already said, If kashmiris are ready for talks, We can settle it ones and For all Diplomatically.... Its Upto them, either take it or face it



Now that attitude is what makes problem!!


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## SBD-3

jade1982 said:


> As far I know India never considered Kashmir a disputed region. Ok if you argue that UN resolution consider Kashmir a disputed regionthen the UN resolution should be discarded, as the dynamics of the world has changed a lot in last half a century. No country in the world is ever going to compromise on its territorial integrity, least of India (where every thing is going right for it). The need of the hour is not the relevancy of the UN resolution but how to have a just solution that is beneficial to all the parties in the region. Musharraf Kashmir idea could be a starting point for discussion.



it was Jawahar la nehru who was involved in this UN and forces stopped at LOC today....and are you implying that a resolution should be discarded just because it does not suit you?......


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## SBD-3

IndianRobo said:


> But, if He got the Capacity and Intention to do so, Yes, *he can see One Billion+ Followers*
> 
> And PM already said, If kashmiris are ready for talks, We can settle it ones and For all Diplomatically.... Its Upto them, either take it or face it



Are you implying that you guys are mindless freaks?.....I havent such a self humiliation

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## Break the Silence

*When Mr. Prime Minister of Republic of India is saying something, it means... one billion people are saying.. So keep in Mind..*


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## SBD-3

Break the Silence said:


> *When Mr. Prime Minister of Republic of India is saying something, it means... one billion people are saying.. So keep in Mind..*



ok you mean if he'z saying "i gotta go to the washroom" should I imply that there will be a need for 1 billion Washrooms?


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## IndianRobo

hasnain0099 said:


> Are you implying that you guys are mindless freaks?.....I havent such a self humiliation



When a countries president is Welcomed with Shoes abroad, I dont think The words of My PM is something to be felt humiliated, but it really hurts when the People of that esteemed president Speak of Self Humiliation

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## Break the Silence

hasnain0099 said:


> ok you mean if he'z saying "i gotta go to the washroom" should I imply that there will be a need for 1 billion Washrooms?



Well, its upto your Iq level..lol!!!


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## gurjot

hasnain0099 said:


> ok you mean if he'z saying "i gotta go to the washroom" should I imply that there will be a need for 1 billion Washrooms?



i think u understood completely


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## SBD-3

IndianRobo said:


> When a countries president is Welcomed with Shoes abroad, I dont think The words of My PM is something to be felt humiliated, but it really hurts when the People of that esteemed president Speak of Self Humiliation


didn't bush recieved them?...... at least we not the blind followers of our president....not mindless freaks


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## IndianRobo

hasnain0099 said:


> ok you mean if he'z saying "i gotta go to the washroom" should I imply that there will be a need for 1 billion Washrooms?



A selfless PM like Ours Would Not even Hesitate to Build 1 Billion Washrooms On His Urgency for Our Countrymen... We are In dire need of Toilets U Know, we would be grateful if he does that


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## SBD-3

gurjot said:


> i think u understood completely



Guess construction sectorz gonna take a "smelly" boom


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## IndianRobo

hasnain0099 said:


> didn't bush recieved them?...... at least we not the blind followers of our president....not mindless freaks



So You take refuge under Some one else's Humiliation aswell, and take it as a symbol of Pride when it comes to your president???? Well well well, What do we have here???

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## back me up

hasnain0099 said:


> ok you mean if he'z saying "i gotta go to the washroom" should I imply that there will be a need for 1 billion Washrooms?



we dont have that many toilets


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## Jade

hasnain0099 said:


> it was Jawahar la nehru who was involved in this UN and forces stopped at LOC today....and are you implying that a resolution should be discarded just because it does not suit you?......



It is not whether UN resolution suits India or Pakistan, but whether it could yield any results&#8230;UN resolutions themselves has become a problem and problems cannot be a part of solution. As on Jawaharlal Nehru, no individual is bigger than the country.


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## SBD-3

IndianRobo said:


> So You take refuge under Some one else's Humiliation aswell, and take it as a symbol of Pride when it comes to your president???? Well well well, What do we have here???



president is not the God....Its my basic human right to differ from him....if someone is our president, he is not our master....thats simple to understand i guess.....


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## User name

Kashmir is an Indian state,any doubts?
If yes,wash your face...you can't do anything about it.(Pakistanis)


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## foxbat

HitNRun said:


> Kashmir is a Muslim state and according to UNo resoutions its disputed land....
> any statement by Indians that its a integral part of India is living in fools paradise.....
> 
> Kashmire is a Part of Pakistan and soon you all indians will see it with your eyes...



You guys need to get your stories synchronised first. You want independence for Kashmir and in the same breath you talk of it being a part of Pakistan. Dont give your game away so easily. So what if the world already knows of this hipocracy. At least you can keep up the pretences


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## Hulk

Even the protest in Kashmir is less then 25% Area and Srinagar is not J&K. Some nut jobs think a small area like valley can be a country. And few Pakistani think Azadi means merging with Pakistan and Green flag is Pakistani flag. We sure have these seperatist in our country but they will not get what they are asking for. These are the same people who kicked out Hindus by doing ethenic cleansing and now they are playing victim.


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## Break the Silence

foxbat said:


> You guys need to get your stories synchronised first. You want independence for Kashmir and in the same breath you talk of it being a part of Pakistan. Dont give your game away so easily. So what if the world already knows of this hipocracy. At least you can keep up the pretences



And in another thread our Pakistani bros are drawing maps of Pakistan with Afghanistan and Kasmir as a part of it.. It makes my me so laughing. Omg.. I cant stop myself!!


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## IndianRobo

hasnain0099 said:


> president is not the God....Its my basic human right to differ from him....if someone is our president, he is not our master....thats simple to understand i guess.....



But Fortunately we havent got any such Presidents or PM's Whose thoughts had to be further Polished to perfection... President is No god, But he sure is the leader.... and an Able leader never creates Followers, But Leaders of Tomorrow.... We want to be the leaders, and Our PM is Doing exactly the same, we have Blind Faith in Him.... He would guide us through safely ....

India is Currently in safe hands

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## KS

Materialistic said:


> Now that attitude is what makes problem!!



If some one has capacity..then there is no problem in having attitude..

the problem is only wen attitude alone is there as is the case of some..

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## SBD-3

indianrabbit said:


> Even the protest in Kashmir is less then 25% Area and Srinagar is not J&K. Some nut jobs think a small area like valley can be a country. And few Pakistani think Azadi means merging with Pakistan and Green flag is Pakistani flag. We sure have these seperatist in our country but they will not get what they are asking for. These are the same people who kicked out Hindus by doing ethenic cleansing and now they are playing victim.



well it is the right of Kashmiries to determine their fate....Pakistan's official stance is same as this...let the kashmiries decide their fate....as promised by India in UN


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## SBD-3

IndianRobo said:


> But Fortunately we havent got any such Presidents or PM's Whose thoughts had to be further Polished to perfection... President is No god, But he sure is the leader.... and an Able leader never creates Followers, But Leaders of Tomorrow.... We want to be the leaders, and Our PM is Doing exactly the same, we have Blind Faith in Him.... He would guide us through safely ....
> 
> India is Currently in safe hands



well thats quite an emotional statement.....


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## Break the Silence

hasnain0099 said:


> well it is the right of Kashmiries to determine their fate....Pakistan's official stance is same as this...let the kashmiries decide their fate....as promised by India in UN



Bhaijaan , ek baat batao. aap ka personal view kya hai, Azad kashmir country, ya pakistan mein milana chahte ho?? Plz choose only one option!


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## gurjot

*another evening dedicated to kashmir issue.*

---------- Post added at 06:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:40 PM ----------




Break the Silence said:


> Bhaijaan , ek baat batao. aap ka personal view kya hai, Azad kashmir country, ya pakistan mein milana chahte ho?? Plz choose only one option!



directly first one ,indirectly second one

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## SBD-3

Break the Silence said:


> Bhaijaan , ek baat batao. aap ka personal view kya hai, Azad kashmir country, ya pakistan mein milana chahte ho?? Plz choose only one option!



at least they have their own setup, and are certainly not treated as ones on the indian Side....and its upto them...whatever they decide...I in my personal view accept them


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## KS

hasnain0099 said:


> well it is the right of Kashmiries to determine their fate....Pakistan's official stance is same as this...let the kashmiries decide their fate....as promised by India in UN



Sorry we cant have some paid traitors deciding the future of kashmir.

BTW the UNSC resolutions were *NON-BINDING-RESOLUTIONS*.

Now wat part of those 3 words u dont understand..? 



hasnain0099 said:


> *at least they have their own setup,* and are certainly not treated as ones on the indian Side....and its upto them...whatever they decide...I in my personal view accept them



read my signature....lol


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## IndianRobo

hasnain0099 said:


> well thats quite an emotional statement.....



Could I consider You got nothing else to say???? Great.... And Yes, Emotional indeed... We Love our PM more than Ourself , Grateful to have him on our side


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## Break the Silence

hasnain0099 said:


> at least they have their own setup, and are certainly not treated as ones on the indian Side....and its upto them...whatever they decide...*I in my personal view accept them*



 now I will not comment hahahahahaaaa...


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## Kambojaric

"Kashmir is India's integral part"

Yeah say that to the hundreds of thousands of Kashmiris who have come out to protest against India over the past 50,60 years.


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## Spring Onion

jade1982 said:


> It is not whether UN resolution suits India or Pakistan, but whether it could yield any resultsUN resolutions themselves has become a problem and problems cannot be a part of solution. As on Jawaharlal Nehru, no individual is bigger than the country.



On Kashmir these resolutions can very well solve the problem only if Indian invaders follow the international law and implement UN resolutions.

Under International Laws Kashmir is disputed territory and not part of India not even a loose part what to say about integral


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## mohan goyal

World has put the issue of kashmir in a cold bag. no one utter K-Word anymore. even ur all weather friend china is shutup.

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## SBD-3

Karthic Sri said:


> Sorry we cant have some paid traitors deciding the future of kashmir.
> 
> BTW the UNSC resolutions were *NON-BINDING-RESOLUTIONS*.
> 
> Now wat part of those 3 words u dont understand..?
> 
> 
> 
> read my signature....lol



http://www.ajk.gov.pk/images/stories/AJK_Interim_Constitution_Act_1974.pdf
read through


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## SBD-3

mohan goyal said:


> World has put the issue of kashmir in a cold bag. no one utter K-Word anymore. even ur all weather friend china is shutup.

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## HitNRun

Sorry to all indian fellows here... Kashmir is disputed land... now if your PM says something like this means that indians are not trustworthy and all world will take a note of it........

one thing for sure if indians didnt let kashmir go then kashmir will take you people down with you... all rich indian states will go down with kashmir.... trust me its proven by history.....

that day is not far away when kashmir will become part to Pakistan.............


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## desiman

Doht mango ge toh kheer denge, Kashmir mango ge toh cheer denge. lol love that line

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## Break the Silence

desiman said:


> Doht mango ge toh kheer denge, Kashmir mango ge toh cheer denge. lol love that line



lol lol lol lol lol..hahahahaha... good one bhai!

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## desiman

Break the Silence said:


> lol lol lol lol lol..hahahahaha... good one bhai!



lol thank u thank u


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## Break the Silence

desiman said:


> lol thank u thank u



well, now our Neighbours are finding something to counter that line alone.. hope to see some sparks !!


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## AbuSalam

Whole world knows Kashmir will HAVE to stay with INDIA for development like rest of INDIA..how can a dept ridden country..staying with foreign aid pop up any more geographic area..can't u all see the writing on the wall...


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## desiman

Break the Silence said:


> well, now our Neighbours are finding something to counter that line alone.. hope to see some sparks !!



lol i have a bucket of water ready


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## airuah

hasnain0099 said:


> but closing you're eyes dont make it a dark night



but you are not able to see because you are in the dark....opening or closing your eyes doesent matter in your situation...you still cannot see.......we can talk when you decide to come into the light


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## SBD-3

airuah said:


> but you are not able to see because you are in the dark


.


> ...opening or closing your eyes doesent matter in your situation...you still cannot see





> .......we can talk when you decide to come into the light



on serious note.....care go through previous posts before en lighting me with your "gracious" thoughts


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## mohan goyal

@hasnain bro.. u remind me of dr.asthana of munna bahi mbbs. he also used to laugh when he was in tension....thx for the entertainment.


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## indianpatriot

Kashmir belongs to India...and we will not give it away at any cost!!


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## linkinpark

Jana said:


> On Kashmir these resolutions can very well solve the problem only if Indian invaders follow the international law and implement UN resolutions.
> 
> Under International Laws Kashmir is disputed territory and not part of India not even a loose part what to say about integral



UN resolutions and any third party mediation is not allowed in solving Kashmir issue according to the Simla accord signed by Zulfiqar Bhutto and Indra Gandhi post 1971 war. S, you guys can stop whining and cringing about application of UN resolutions.



> (ii) That the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through *bilateral negotiations* or by any other peaceful means *mutually agreed upon* between them. Pending the final settlement of any of the problems between the two countries, neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation and both shall prevent the organization, assistance of encouragement of any acts detrimental to the maintenance of peaceful and harmonious relations;
> 
> Kashmir: Legal Documents


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## trident2010

My Indian friends .. 

Every country got some dreams to live on. It doesn't matter if it becomes true or not. Let our pakistani friends to live in this dream. I only wish they wake up soon and sleep again to have a more realistic dream which they can make true. This is my dream though

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## Jade

Jana said:


> On Kashmir these resolutions can very well solve the problem only if Indian invaders follow the international law and implement UN resolutions.



Solution for whom? Solutions are those that satisfy all the parties involved and not those that create new problems. 



> Under International Laws Kashmir is disputed territory and not part of India not even a loose part what to say about integral



Thats is Pakistan POV, but India claims otherwise


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## FreekiN

> Kashmir is India&#8217;s integral part: INDIAN PM



And not a single Kashmiri gave a shiht.


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## gubbi

FreekiN said:


> And not a single Kashmiri gave a shiht.



Because, most of them have no idea, absolutely, what they are talking about. Look at their leaders - leaders who instead of working for peace and prosperity of their people instigate them for violence! To what end? 

Speaks volumes, aint it?


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## Jade

FreekiN said:


> And not a single Kashmiri gave a shiht.



It depends on how you define a Kashmiri


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## s90

Its integral part of India then why bother to discuss it with Pakistan? - Never heard that Chinese discussing about status of Tibet with the world. Indians are confusing.


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## Hulk

Kashmir topic gives entertainment to all on this forum, many thread and hardly any seriousness in discussion.


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## somebozo

This is in blatant contradiction to Kasmiri idea of freedom as they dont recocnize themselves as integral part of India, Pakistan what ever..so these artifical advances of building peace will not lead anywhere.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Karthic Sri said:


> Whatever sails ur boat..Sir



yeah, exactly. Never found that alternate source 





> OK fine...let the Kashmiris also do a "economic" migration...why should they be treated specially than the Pandits.??



well, the Kashmiris are in Kashmir. Kashmir is their home. Some other people decided to leave on their own will; life goes on. Kashmiris should be able to determine their own fate.

That is why they are protesting en masse against hindustan occupation


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## gurjot

FreekiN said:


> And not a single Kashmiri gave a shiht.



who cares


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## xyz

hasnain0099 said:


> Thank you for helping me prove that India is a land hungry country......just hold your view and dont deviate from this now



zindagi jhandwa phir bhi ghamandwa this is your story ..


----------



## pkd

SRINAGAR: A Muslim policeman who flung a shoe at Indian Kashmir&#8217;s chief minister Omar Abdullah was hailed as a hero on Monday, with thousands of people descending on his home village to congratulate his family.
Every major Indian newspaper ran front page photos of Abdul Ahad Jan&#8217;s shoe sailing over Abdullah&#8217;s head, as the minister spoke at an Indian independence day event on Sunday in Kashmir&#8217;s summer capital Srinagar.
The improvised missile failed to find its target and Jan, who had chanted &#8220;We want freedom&#8221; and waved a black flag-a symbol of Kashmiri separatism-was quickly overpowered by bodyguards.
The incident was captured live on television and prompted several thousand people to descend on Jan&#8217;s home village of Ajas, about 40 km north of Srinagar.
Witnesses said women showered flowers on Jan&#8217;s wife, Bega Jan, and kissed and hugged her, while others beat drums outside her home and the crowd chanted &#8220;Long live Ahad Jan.&#8221;
&#8220;What he has done is unbelievable. He has done us proud. It was the manifestation of the anger that every Kashmiri harbours,&#8221; Merhaj-u-Din, a contractor and part of the crowd at Ajas, told AFP by telephone.
The celebrations, which had a distinctly anti-India complexion, began on Sunday and continued through the night and into Monday.
The last two months have witnessed the worst violence in the Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley in more than two years. Stone-throwing protesters opposed to Indian rule have clashed with police on a near daily basis in Srinagar and other towns. Nearly 60 protesters and bystanders have been killed, most of them young men or teenagers shot dead by police.
Chief minister Abdullah, who heads the National Conference, the main pro-India party in Kashmir, sought to laugh off the incident.
&#8220;Hurling a shoe is better than hurling a stone,&#8221; he told the crowd at the independence day rally.
Abdullah has come under a lot of pressure for his handling of the recent unrest, with many Muslims blaming him for what they see as the disproportionate police response to the protests.
Jan remains in custody, and police officials were quick to issue a statement questioning his mental state. &#8220;He is mentally unsound and is facing charges in a criminal case. He has already been suspended for his criminal activities,&#8221; the statement said.
Jan&#8217;s family rubbished the police version. &#8220;He is mentally fit. But he was disturbed by the recent killings of civilians. He has always resisted injustice,&#8221; said Azad Jan, his relative.
Jan&#8217;s name was also on the lips of supporters in Srinagar. &#8220;I salute his courage for throwing a shoe at a person responsible for killing over 50 people. Ahad Jan is our hero,&#8221; said Abdul Majid, a shopkeeper.
&#8220;His picture should be on currency notes once we are free,&#8221; he said.
http://tribune.com.pk/story/39884/shoe-throwing-policeman-hailed-as-hero-in-indian-kashmir/

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## SBD-3

xyz said:


> zindagi jhandwa phir bhi ghamandwa this is your story ..


chahay pain karky zeerba banado.....Khota khota he rehta hay...


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## Qasibr

Aw man I hope this guy's alright. Knowing how the indians tortured Sipahi Maqbool Hussain, just makes one dread to think of what this guy might be going through rightnow

COAS Kayani Paying Tribute To Sipahi Maqbool Who Faced 43 Yrs of Indian Torture

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## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> yeah, exactly. Never found that alternate source



Never found any credible (Pakistani) source...



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> well, the Kashmiris are in Kashmir. Kashmir is their home. Some other people decided to leave on their own will; life goes on. Kashmiris should be able to determine their own fate.
> 
> That is why they are protesting en masse against hindustan occupation



Let them protest....nothings gonna change...About a million (some) Hindus were hounded out by terrorists(left on their own will)..Good.

I think the only solution to this is the separatists should also leave on their own will albeit to the opposite side.


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## pkd

Qasibr said:


> Knowing how the indians tortured Sipahi Maqbool Hussain, just makes one dread to think of what this guy might be going through rightnow
> 
> COAS Kayani Paying Tribute To Sipahi Maqbool Who Faced 43 Yrs of Indian Torture



Very heart rendering Indeed !!!43 years in india concentration camps.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Karthic Sri said:


> Never found any credible (Pakistani) source...



Oh I was open to any source. You posted a blog article that can&#8217;t even be cross-checked.


FAIL



Let them protest....nothings gonna change...About a million (some) Hindus were hounded out by terrorists(left on their own will)..Good.



> I think the only solution to this is the separatists should also leave on their own will albeit to the opposite side.




Be realistic; why should they leave their homes? If I set up checkpoints in your own home, will you just willingly leave behind your home and belongings and settle somewhere else? Hell no. You will obviously resist the occupation. 

The separatists want separation from hindustan; not from Kashmir





p.s. not all seperatists want to join Pakistan either; we in Pakistan support a plebicite in Kashmir, and this is known to the world.


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## Machoman

Shoe throwing become fashion now a-days. lol


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## Masterchief

he was suspended, so i think he wanted to garner some limelight, poor for him though he will be dismissed,


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## gurjot

Machoman said:


> Shoe throwing become fashion now a-days. lol



chachu bush inaugrated the shoe ceremony


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## Masterchief

Qasibr said:


> Aw man I hope this guy's alright. Knowing how the indians tortured Sipahi Maqbool Hussain, just makes one dread to think of what this guy might be going through rightnow
> 
> COAS Kayani Paying Tribute To Sipahi Maqbool Who Faced 43 Yrs of Indian Torture



oh dude how can that guy will be alright, only an idiot will throw a shoe at a guy he was sworned to protect, he hurled the shoe for personal reasons, he was suspended from service when he breached the laws, anyways shoe hurling is the latest trend to become famous fast, everybody has missed the target till now, he should have had practised before throwing the shoe


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## Masterchief

gurjot said:


> chachu bush inaugrated the shoe ceremony



are bhai, aaj kya special din hai, sabki tang kheench rahe ho


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## Solomon2

> only an idiot will throw a shoe at a guy he was sworned to protect


Think of how much better the world would be if tyrants were shot by their own bodyguards.


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## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Be realistic; *why should they leave their homes*? If I set up checkpoints in your own home, will you just willingly leave behind your home and belongings and settle somewhere else? Hell no. You will obviously resist the occupation.
> 
> The separatists want separation from hindustan; not from Kashmir



Who is asking them to leave their homes....they can stay all they want here but only with the Blue-back passports with 4 lions on it.

If they desire any other passport they can migrate to the country that issues them..Simple.




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> p.s. not all seperatists want to join Pakistan either; we in Pakistan support a plebicite in Kashmir, and this is known to the world.



Thank god u realised the first part.As for the second part..yeah the world very well knows wat Pakistan is upto.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## KS

hasnain0099 said:


> http://www.ajk.gov.pk/images/stories/AJK_Interim_Constitution_Act_1974.pdf
> read through



I suggest u read these:

Why Azad Kashmir be called P0K? 

How Azad is `Azad Kashmir'


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## Srinivas

s90 said:


> Its integral part of India then why bother to discuss it with Pakistan? - Never heard that Chinese discussing about status of Tibet with the world. Indians are confusing.



It is because pakistan is supporting the terror groups and is openly declaring support for the so called jihadists  .


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Karthic Sri said:


> Who is asking them to leave their homes....they can stay all they want here but only with the Blue-back passports with 4 lions on it



good point...if anything, you are forcing them to stay indoors? Why? because of their call for freedom from hindustan

curfews are not being respected because people have much frustration and anger to let out; they have no other avenues or ways to express their anger and frustration

by killing those protestors, you are fanning the flames for more unrest. And instead of understanding the GROUND REALITIES, you resort to diversionary tactics and blaming ISI/Pakistan for it.

As i always say -- purely Kashmiri local phenomenon. You reap what you sow.



> If they desire any other passport they can migrate to the country that issues them..Simple.



simple only to those who think laathi charges and suppression are ways to promote/ensure peace in the valley

recent events unfolding will have me and a lot others think otherwise 




> Thank god u realised the first part.



i'm not in denial mode. 



> As for the second part..yeah the world very well knows wat Pakistan is upto.



Several million of our countrymen have suffered from terrorism, biblical-level floods, and outside efforts to meddle inside -- but with that said, world knows very well Pakistan stands shoulder to shoulder with the people and the land of Kashmir.

And our moral support to Kashmiri bretheren will never cease.


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## r3alist

kashmir was never legally given to india

the actions of a tyrant are invalid and unrepresentative of the people

india constantly needs to engage in cognitive dissonance vis a vis kashmir, the screams are getting louder




*
FOR PEOPLE on this forum the one little thing we can do is to get the message about kashmir as much as we can, WE CAN MAKE THE WORLD LISTEN*


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## Tshering22

r3alist said:


> kashmir was never legally given to india
> 
> the actions of a tyrant are invalid and unrepresentative of the people
> 
> india constantly needs to engage in cognitive dissonance vis a vis kashmir, the screams are getting louder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> FOR PEOPLE on this forum the one little thing we can do is to get the message about kashmir as much as we can, WE CAN MAKE THE WORLD LISTEN*


Let the keep screaming and tearing their own vocal chords needlessly trying to garner sympathy for a cause that has no base or validity. You've tried the so-called internationalization already. The 'world community' can talk all it wants due to their right to talk, but that's about it.


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## EjazR

*The Hindu : Front Page : A mother, a son and Kashmir's education tragedy*


_Islamist radical Asiya Andrabi wants schools and colleges shut. Her son wants a passport to study abroad

In June, some private schools briefly reopened, but shut down again after Andrabi's warning

Secessionists have long insulated their children's education from the troubled region's politics_

SRINAGAR: Last month, Kashmiri Islamist leader Asiya Andrabi lashed out at parents worried about the consequences the weeks of violent street protests she has spearheaded might have for their children.

Losses of life, material and the education of children, she said in a July 13 statement, are inevitable in our freedom struggle. But these cannot be reasons to make compromises. The material sacrifices made by students, cart-pushers or daily-wage labourers have no value when compared to those who are ready to make the supreme sacrifice for the cause of freedom.

But documents filed in the Jammu and Kashmir High Court suggest that the fugitive Dukhtaran-e-Millat leader's son does not want to be among the tens of thousands of school and college students who have been locked out of educational institutions since June  or to join the ranks of those dying on Srinagar's streets.
*
Petition for passport*

In a petition filed before the court on April 30, 2010, Ms. Andrabi's teenage son Muhammad Bin Qasim asked that he be issued a passport in order to pursue college education abroad.

Filed on behalf of Mr. Qasim by a maternal uncle, since he was then a minor, the petition says the teenager has applied for admission in Malaysia and has indicated his first choice as Bachelor of Information Technology and second one as Bachelor of Laws [sic.].

June 1992-born Qasim, the documents show, applied for a passport on March 2, 2010. He applied for admission to a university abroad after obtaining 553 out of a possible 750 marks in his final year school examinations last year.

However, the Jammu and Kashmir Police, which verify the antecedents of passport applicants, claim that the 18-year-old could be a threat to the state's security. In a May 24, 2010 response to Qasim's application, senior additional advocate-general A.M. Magray has stated that the teenager may be misused by his anti-India family if allowed to travel abroad.

The Jammu and Kashmir government's affidavit relies on the fact that several of Qasim's relatives have been key figures in the State's anti-India movement. His father, Ashiq Husain Faktoo, a former member of the terrorist group Jamiat-ul-Mujahideen, is serving a life sentence for the 1992 murder of human rights activist H.N. Wanchoo. Inayatullah Andrabi, another of Qasim's uncles, was a founder of the Jamaat-e-Islami's student wing, the Islami Jamaat-e-Tulaba. Qasim, then just three, himself spent 13 months in prison along with his parents after their arrest in 1993.

Ms. Andrabi's inflammatory polemic has given an increasingly ugly shape to the protests in Kashmir. Earlier this month, she condemned representatives of religious minorities who met with Tehreek-i-Hurriyat chief Syed Ali Shah Geelani to voice their concern at communal strains in the ongoing mobilisation. Minorities can ask for security from the majority only after we get freedom from India, she said. Ms. Andrabi also claimed, without basis, that Hindu fundamentalists in Jammu had burned alive a number of Kashmiri Muslim drivers.

But there is nothing to show that Qasim is involved in his parents' politics. Last summer, Ms. Andrabi dragged her son home from Jammu, after learning that he had been selected to play in a national-level cricket tournament. How, Ms. Andrabi had told the media, can I let him play for India? My son will never serve a country that is our enemy. It is just impossible.

I was playing, Qasim responded in an interview, for Kashmir. Cricket is my passion. After Islam and my parents, cricket is everything for me. I just wanted to play at least one national-level match in my life.
*
Bleak future*

Hundreds of Kashmir families have been exploring educational opportunities outside the region. Schools and universities have been shut since early this summer, when protests on Srinagar's streets began to escalate. In June, some privately-run schools briefly reopened  but shut down again after Ms. Andrabi warned that she would not be responsible for the consequences. Educational institutions in Jammu have since reported a surge in applications.

Kashmir's élite, including anti-India secessionists, have long insulated their children's education from the troubled region's politics. Incarcerated Islamist leader and lawyer Mian Abdul Qayoom, for example, sent one of his three daughters to study medicine in Darbhanga in Bihar. His nephew is a ninth-semester student at the Dogra Law College in Jammu  a privately owned institution owned, perhaps ironically, by local Congress leader Gulchain Singh Charak. Two other nephews, and a niece, obtained degrees in law and science from Pune.
*
The unfortunate ones*

The élite of our society, journalist Manzoor Anjum wrote in an editorial commentary in the Urdu-language newspaper Uqab last month, had already sent their children outside Kashmir for the pursuit of education, and those who had not done so earlier are doing so now. But the people who cannot afford to do so, who are in the majority, are caught between the devil and the deep [blue] sea. The bleak future of their children stares them in the face.


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## EjazR

*Relief efforts bind Muslims, Buddhists of Ladakh*

JAMMU, Aug 16: &#8220;Deep in our heart, there is a ray of hope&#8230;..Good time will be back again&#8230;&#8221;, &#8220;We shall overcome the loss&#8230;..If we keep faith alive in us.&#8221;
Read the placards placed alongside the small counter of &#8220;relief-cum-information cell&#8221; set up by few Ladakhi students for Leh cloud burst, flash floods victims in Jammu.
While the striking slogans full of positivism immediately grab the attention, the move, though a very small one, inspires one and all.
They are not only nursing a ray of hope, they are also making efforts to &#8220;bring back the good times&#8221; though in their small ways.
In this hour of devastation, which has shaken this small yet well-knit community, these students are contributing their bit by donating their pocket money for the souls in distress back in their native land under the aegis of All Ladakh Students Association Jammu.
The magnitude of tragedy is enormous by this community of few hundreds. Nevertheless they themselves took an initiative and set the pace of this campaign with whatever little they had to offer. These students are also helping disseminating information about the affected to the fellow students here in Jammu region. They are receiving queries from Ladakhi students studying in Dehradun, Delhi and Chandigarh as well. The Association is also keeping a track of affected students. 
It is notable that there are 3000 students from Leh studying in Jammu University and other educational institutions of Jammu region while from Kargil there are 1000-1500 students.
So far the Association has been able to track three or four students only in Jammu who are directly or indirectly affected by this tragedy. They are already in Leh. 
Another remarkable aspect is that sinking all the religious differences, the students from both Leh and Kargil, both Budhhists and Muslims stand united in this testing time &#8211; yet another rare virtue to be emulated by the people of two other regions of this communally volatile state.
Gesture is unique and so is the way being adopted for this campaign &#8211; calm and gentle. Small counters are set up in different localities of Jammu to grab the attention of philanthropists. Everyday the location gets changed.
They had used the electronic channels to make an appeal to the people to come forward to contribute their bit in whatever way possible for them. Donation is accepted in both the kind and cash.
As Tsering Norphel president All Ladakhi Student Association Jammu informs, &#8220;Our main relief collection centre is Ladakh House just opposite the Rail Head Complex where the relief both at micro as well as macro level is being collected. Our major focus is on the collection of mineral water bottles, blankets, band-aid and other first-aid material, masks, gloves besides warm clothes. As far as cash (bigger amount) is concerned we&#8217;ve given an Account No 13062. All the donors can deposit cheque in the favour of All Ladakh Student Association Jammu.&#8221;
Till last week, these untiring student enthusiasts had collected Rs 2.5 lakhs besides 4-5 tonnes of other material. &#8220;We&#8217;re utilizing even this amount to but the things which are urgently required by the affected families there. While we&#8217;ve taken this initiative, we&#8217;re getting an overwhelming response from all sections of the society in Jammu and even from outside the state, including the Jammu University Vice-Chancellor and the student organisations. Our MLAs Qamar Ali Akhoon and Nawang Rigzin Jora, who are ministers as well, too are a great support system for us, readily available to us anytime,&#8221; Norphel asserts.
He makes a special mention of Sanjay Singha of Narmada Industries in Bari Brahmana, Alok Gupta of Mumbai Star Union for their generous help and SSP Basant Rath and SHO Bus Stand for helping them channelizing this whole campaign.
These students are in a hurry to provide relief to the victims&#8211; reason soon the winters will set in and the cold desert will become inaccessible. &#8220;The relief should reach them well in time. Right now the aid is pouring from all sides but soon they would be out of sight and so would be their plight,&#8221; they share their worries.
Given this awe-inspiring spirited zeal of Ladakhi students and their unflinching faith, optimism, one is convinced that definitely the loss will be overcome very soon &#8211; and `Good time&#8217; will certainly be back. Just a matter of time- that&#8217;s for sure!


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## EjazR

*Kashmir Images :: Details*

Baramulla, Aug 16: An unruly mob attacked ambulance of Sub-district Hospital Pattan and roughed up doctors including Block Medical Officer (BMO) Pattan near Singhpora Pattan Monday.
It was in the afternoon when our ambulance was stopped by hundreds of youth near Singhpora Pattan. The angry youth asked for the BMO who happened to be with us. And when the BMO asked what was wrong, an angry youth swooped on him and slapped him saying that ambulance was not available to them, one Dr. Manzoor Ahmed said while talking to Kashmir Images. 
During the assault, the angry youth also hurled choicest abuses at us and misbehaved with a female doctor whom we had picked up from Primary Health Center Singhpora Pattan, Dr. Manzoor added.
They pelted stones on the ambulance and smashed its windowpanes, alleged the doctors. 
Denying the allegations about the non-availability of ambulance, he said that the ambulance always remains available at Sub-district Hospital. Some youth had asked for it to visit an injured youth of Singhpora who is admitted in SKIMS Soura but that time ambulance had gone to fetch staff of the hospital, he clarified.
The doctors and paramedical staff threatened to go on strike following the assault on staff and BMO saying they were feeling insecure.
We put our lives to risk and work under precarious circumstances but despite that people fail to realize our limitations. It is very unfortunate, said the medicos.


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## EjazR

*Kashmir Images Near LoC, Omar talks of peace

&#8220;When table is available, why to go for stones?&#8221;
Says good Indo-Pak relations imperative for peace, development*

Keran, Aug 16: Describing good Indo-Pak relations imperative for peace and development in both the countries, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah today said Jammu and Kashmir has always been the recipient of the dividends of thaw in Indo-Pak relations.
Addressing a public meeting here on Monday, the Chief Minister underlined the need for free trade and travel across the LoC to enhance economic activities and broad-base people&#8217;s interactions.
Omar stressed on brotherly Indo-Pak relations and said that dialogue between the two countries in a friendly atmosphere will pave way for settling all issues and contributing for lasting peace in the sub-continent.
&#8220;In the last 60 years&#8217; period we have witnessed three-and-half wars between the two countries without yielding any positive result. This highlights the need for addressing the issues peacefully,&#8221; he said. The Chief Minister said that the bad affects of gun and violence have engulfed Pakistan and there is immediate need for this country to join hands with India to fight &#8220;terrorism&#8221; and help cultivate peace for the larger interests of the two people.

Omar welcomed the Government of India&#8217;s recognition of the fact that the accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India had taken place under unique circumstances necessitating addressing political issues of the state in a special manner.
He also welcomed the Prime Minister&#8217;s statement on the issue of autonomy and said that time has provided a historic opportunity to the people of Jammu and Kashmir to take advantage.
He said he has always advocated addressing political issues of Jammu and Kashmir politically and his party has stood for the restoration of autonomy to Jammu and Kashmir.
On the present law and order situation in the Valley, Chief Minster said that stone pelting and violence will never prove prudent for anyone to ventilate his opinion and stress on the issues.
&#8220;We have undergone a saga of militancy and we know it has yielded nothing for us,&#8221; he said and appealed to all shades of the people to help restore normalcy and work for peaceful settlement of political issues on table.
&#8220;When dialogue process is available, why to resort to stone pelting and hartals?&#8221; he questioned the leaders &#8220;perpetrating these tactics&#8221; adding that when they can discuss anything on the table and put forth any solution to the problems in a free and fair atmosphere of dialogue, there is no need to disturb the peace and put everyone in trouble.
The Chief Minister said that during elections, he asked votes from the people for development and his government in last 18 months has focused on &#8216;Pani, Bijli, Sadak, Taleem and Sahet&#8217; (drinking water, electricity, roads, education and health), flagging employment and employability the major sectors of government concern.
&#8220;We have promised to be facilitators in the talks at internal and external levels and my government is actively involved in it,&#8221; he added.
The Chief Minister expressed sorrow over the economic losses in the recent torrential rains in the border area of Keran and said that government will take every measure to rehabilitate the affected families and restore the infrastructure. He announced six months&#8217; ration for the affected families and special recruitment drive for the youth of the area. He also said the demand of the people for separate development block for the area would be actively considered in the right forum and assured them concrete steps by the government for all-round development of the area.
The public meeting was also addressed by Minister of State for Tourism and Housing, Nasir Aslam Wani, MLA Kupwara, Mir Saifullah while as MLC Nasir Khan was present on the occasion.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Officer lauded in Indian Kashmir for hurling shoe​*
By AIJAZ HUSSAIN (AP)  12 hours ago

SRINAGAR, India  Fifteen police officials have been suspended after an off-duty officer flung a shoe at Indian-controlled Kashmir's top elected official during India's independence day ceremony  an insulting act lauded by thousands of Kashmiris, news reports said.

The public reaction to Abdul Ahad Jan's stunt during Sunday's ceremony in Srinagar underscores the continuing anti-India sentiment in the predominantly Muslim region which has been rocked by unrest since June. At least 57 people have died in the violence.

Jan was in a high-security gallery of top officials and ministers when he hurled a shoe at Chief Minister Omar Abdullah during the ceremony at a soccer stadium.

He also threw a black flag toward Abdullah while shouting, "We want freedom." Neither item hit Abdullah.

Jan was immediately arrested and authorities later said he was mentally unstable and had been suspended from work in May.

"It was a major security breach and we're probing how he managed to sit in the top officials gallery," said a police officer on condition of anonymity as he was not authorized to speak with media.

The officer said 15 police were suspended for lax security that allowed Jan to enter the stadium.

After his arrest, thousands of supporters shouted pro-independence slogans outside Jan's house and showered flowers on his wife as young men played musical instruments, local newspapers reported Monday.

Anti-India sentiment runs deep in Kashmir  the Himalayan region divided between predominantly Hindu India and Muslim-majority Pakistan but claimed in full by both. Most people favor independence from India or a merger with Pakistan.

Jan's brother, Sanaullah Jan, accused authorities of lying when they said Jan was mentally unwell and had been suspended.

"He is very sensitive and felt sad over the killings in the (Kashmir) valley," Sanaullah Jan was quoted as saying by the English-language Greater Kashmir daily newspaper.

Following his arrest, Jan was hospitalized later Sunday after he became sick, the officer said.

On Monday, Jan again shouted pro-independence slogans at the hospital and told reporters he wanted to meet Abdullah. "I'll expose all the lies of state police," he said.

The recent unrest in Indian Kashmir has been reminiscent of the late 1980s, when protests against New Delhi's rule sparked an Islamic insurgency that has so far killed more than 68,000 people, mostly civilians.

Separatists says they will continue protesting during the current Muslim fasting month of Ramadan.

On Monday, thousands of armed police and paramilitary soldiers patrolled nearly deserted streets in Srinagar  the main city in the region  and other major towns and enforced a strict curfew in most of the region. Troops laid razor wire and erected steel barricades to block access to downtown.

Copyright © 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved
The Associated Press: Officer lauded in Indian Kashmir for hurling shoe


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I want to throw my shoe too at someone, ideally the rubber chappal ,so when it hits someone in face it will make a snapping sound


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## Imran Khan

every three days born one hero of she these days,hahhahahha


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## stormyboy

who start the show throwing trend? the iraqi man?


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## somebozo

viva le resistance..soon shoes will be declared WMD and all delegates have to attend without shoes.


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## IBRIS

Here is the punk who missed his target.


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## somebozo

Kashmiries observe black day on 15 august. wonder why such sentiments do not exisit in Pakistani Kashmir.


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## Hulk

Just look at the way reporting is done in Pakistan, they have written ' A Muslim policemen'. These people cannot write anything without looking at religion. By the way let them celebrate, some idiots do not know why they are doing something, I would have understood if it was some none Kashmiri. Omar is a great leader and PDP is after him because of that, it's all politics she just want to win next election. After the election everything will be normal trust me.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Brotherhood

*3 militants, trooper killed in gunfight in India-controlled Kashmir - People's Daily Online* August 16, 2010

Three militants and an Indian army trooper were killed in a three-day- long gunfight between militants and a joint party of Indian army and police, police Monday said.

An army officer, a policeman and a civilian were also injured in the standoff.

The gunfight which broke out in Thanamandi forest area of Rajouri district, 180 km northwest of Jammu, the winter capital of India-controlled Kashmir, started Saturday.

"The gunfight started Saturday and ended this afternoon. Three militants and an army soldier were killed in the three-day-long gunfight. Two militants were killed on Sunday, while another militant was killed today. Also a soldier died today after receiving bullets," said a police officer posted in Rajouri.

The injured were hospitalized and are undergoing treatment.

The gunfight is reported to have stopped but search operations are underway in the forest area.

Police officials said the slain militants have been identified as the cardres of Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) militant outfit active in the area.

Last week militants ambushed an army convoy in the area injuring two troopers. A woman was killed and 15 passengers were also injured, when a bus they were traveling in was caught in crossfire between militants and army troopers.

Gunfight between Indian troops and militants in the region takes place intermittently.

Police and defense officials maintain that most of the times the operations triggering gunfights are carried out on prior information about presence of militants in specific areas.

Militants in the region are engaged in a guerrilla war with the Indian troops and police stationed in the region over the past two decades.

Source:Xinhua


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## stormyboy

DAMN!! Why does shoe always miss target??!!


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## brahmastra

easy way to get on tv and become famous if you throw shoe at some famous person. nothing new.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Look at the dog standing!! like a faithful dog of his master! bloody bastard.


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## Solomon2

somebozo said:


> viva le resistance..soon shoes will be declared WMD and all delegates have to attend without shoes.


You're in Saudi, how much do you think the sheiks will bid for this pair?


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Gilani: Indian forces unleash reign of terror in Occupied Kashmir ​*
Written by KMS 
Monday, 16 August 2010 18:41 








Srinagar, August 16, 2010: APHC Chairman, Syed Ali Gilani, has said that Indian troops have unleashed a reign of terror across the occupied territory to suppress the ongoing liberation movement.

Syed Ali Gilani, who is undergoing treatment at Soura Institute of Medical Sciences, addressing the newsmen via telephone said that the Indian forces, after killing and injuring the Kashmiri youth, were trampling their bodies ruthlessly. &#8220;On one hand, India claims to be the biggest democracy of the world, while on the other hand, its troops are committing gross rights abuses,&#8221; he added.



He strongly condemned the desecration of Hazratbal Shrine by the troopers. &#8220;The troops wearing boots went inside the shrine, broke window panes and thrashed the worshippers, who were offering prayers. This is the worst form of Indian state terrorism and barbarism,&#8221; he maintained. Grand Mufti of Occupied Kashmir, Mufti Bashir-ud-Din, strongly denounced the desecration of Hazratbal Shrine by Indian troops on Saturday.

Announcing the ten-day protest programme in connection with the ongoing "Quit Kashmir Movement", Syed Ali Gilani urged people to make it a success. He lauded the Kashmiris for their unmatched sacrifices and commitment to carry on protests against Indian oppression, despite all odds.

Syed Ali Gilani said that the people would observe complete strike, stage protests and sit-ins on August 16. &#8220;People should stage sit-ins from the morning prayers to Maghrib prayers and offer Zuhar and Asar prayers on streets. After the Tarawih prayers, pro-freedom and pro-Islamic slogans should be raised on public address systems,&#8221; he said.

He said that on August 17, there would be no strike, however, people should hoist black flags on their vehicles as a mark of protest. He stated that complete shutdown would be observed on August 18 besides march towards HMT, Sopore, Islamabad, Trehgam and Pattan.

Syed Ali Gilani said that there would be a complete strike on August 19 and the day would be observed as Prisoners Day to express solidarity with the leaders and youth, languishing in different jails. He said that there would be no strike on August 20, after 12 noon, while on August 21, the people would observe complete shutdown besides staging protests and sit-ins.

Giving further details of the programme, he said that the people would observe strike on August 22, adding, &#8220;On the day people are advised to clean up the garbage in their respective areas.&#8221; Syed Ali Gilani said that the people of Kashmir would go on strike on August 23 and stage sit-in protests while on August 24 there would be no strike and on August 25, people would stage sit-ins and observe shutdown.

Life remained paralysed due to the shutdown call by APHC Chairman, Syed Ali Gilani, to protest against the killing of innocent Kashmiris by Indian police and troops. The call had been given as part of the ongoing "Quit Kashmir Movement". Shops, business establishments, educational institutions, banks and courts remained closed while traffic was off the road.

The occupation authorities clamped curfew in Srinagar, Islamabad, Bijbehara, Sopore, Kupwara, Trehgam and Bandipora while imposing restrictions in Baramulla, Pulwama, Hindwara and other major towns to prevent people from staging protests. Defying curfew, people held anti-India demonstrations in several localities of Srinagar. Indian forces opened fire on the protesters in Batamaloo area, injuring several people, one of them critically.

Despite curfew, thousands of enthused people from the length and breadth of Bandipore district marched towards the house of a police officer to complement his action of hurling a shoe towards the puppet Chief Minster, Omar Abdullah during a function, yesterday.

On the other hand, three youth were martyred while an Indian soldier was killed in a clash between Freedom Fighters and the Indian forces in Saran Wali area of Rajouri. An army Major and a Special Police Officer of Indian police were injured during the clash. A civilian also sustained injuries in the indiscriminate firing of the troops. 

In New York, Kashmiri Americans held a peace rally in front of the Indian Mission to the United Nations. Addressing the rally, the Executive Director of Kashmir Centre Washington, Dr Ghulam Nabi Fai said that the people of Kashmir had been struggling to secure their right of self-determination promised to them by the international community.

The Chairman of Kashmir Centre Brussels, Barrister Abdul Majeed Tramboo addressing a protest demonstration in front of the Indian Embassy in Brussels said that the people of Jammu and Kashmir were facing the worst form of Indian state terrorism. Addressing a similar demonstration in London, the Executive Director of Kashmir Centre London, Professor Nazir Ahmed Shawl and other speakers emphasised that the best democratic way to resolve the Kashmir dispute was to hold plebiscite in the territory.

http://www.markthetruth.com/topnews/727-top-news.html


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## Hulk

Utter nonesense, if people do not want policemen to enter their religious place they should not do politics there.


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## brahmastra

Gilani should keep his dirty mouth shut, and care about your kashmir only.


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## gubbi

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *Gilani: Indian forces unleash reign of terror in Occupied Kashmir ​*
> Written by KMS
> Monday, 16 August 2010 18:41
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gilani: Indian forces unleash reign of terror in Occupied Kashmir



That picture is NOT of Kashmir. Its of Lebanon (not even Palestinian), a Hezbollah mourning procession. There is a Lebanese flag in the background. Geez, when will people ever learn! Using such images to stoke further unrest is despicable and downright cheap. But then what else can one expect from people with ulterior motives! 

As for rest of the article, WHATEVER! You people keep your hopes high.

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## HAIDER

Its getting worst day by day. More India keep the arm forces within civilian limits more hatred will increase. But it seems things are out of control. More like press censor in Kashmir. Its out of India hand now. 
With the power they won't be able to keep Kashmir in India for long. 
The biggest and longest armed forces presence in any conflict zone.


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## gubbi

dabong1 said:


> If the indians had accepted the accession of hydrabad-jundagarh to pakistan then we would have accepted the same thing in kashmir..........but you invaded hydrabad-jundagarh saying that they where majority hindu areas so should join india and then we pakistani said the same thing should apply in kashmir.
> 
> Did india accept the accession of these two areas to pakistan....no



Hyderabad and Junagadh, both Hindu majority princely states ruled by Muslim rulers, who chose to join Pakistan. Agreed.

Problem: Pakistan was created for the Muslims of the sub-continent, Jinnah himself had said something to the effect that Muslims and Hindus cannot share a nation! Unfortunately for Pakistan & fortunately for the rest of the world it turned out to be false. Pakistan had but only one leader worth his salt and he stumbled!

Now, on what basis was Pakistan willing to accept Hindu majority states? Wouldnt that negate the very purpose of why Pakistan was carved out of India in the first place? Wouldnt that negate the very reason for Pakistan's existence?

Now dont ever equate Hyderabad and Junagadh issues to Kashmir issue. Totally irrelevant. Its another story that India could militarily undo the flimsy accession.


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## Gene

a kashmiri guy who thrown a shoe at another kashmiri called hero???

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## Agnostic_Indian

That guy is hospitalised for HIGH BP..humanity first.


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## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> good point...if anything, you are forcing them to stay indoors? Why? because of their call for freedom from hindustan
> 
> curfews are not being respected because people have much frustration and anger to let out; they have no other avenues or ways to express their anger and frustration



two points:


They dont need to stay indoors ..they can do watever they want outside other than pelting stones ,destroying public property and calling for "freedom"

Thats wat I said..they are free to do anything and everything as long as they r law abiding citizens of India.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> by killing those protestors, you are fanning the flames for more unrest. And instead of understanding the GROUND REALITIES, you resort to diversionary tactics and blaming ISI/Pakistan for it.
> 
> As i always say -- purely Kashmiri local phenomenon. You reap what you sow.



It is not as simple as that..it is not that much difficult to incite a crowd to throw stones and the secuirty forces cannot do anything other than shoot back(tear gas shells).And the people killed were cause of tear gas shells and not live bullets.

And this death causes another cycle...good job.

But soory for saying..if it seems to go beyong control we can very well sow the land with castor oil (figuratively) so that nothing grows there.

And please dont insult my knowledge wth all the "pure Kashmiri phenomenon" hoopla.We both know better.




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> simple only to those who think laathi charges and suppression are ways to promote/ensure peace in the valley



see I ll not pretend like u that the only reason we r ther is our genuine concern for Kashmiri ppl..it is one of the reasons only.

The notable others being Kashmir's strategic importance,our territorial integrity,our pride,the blood of the martyrs already spilled and of course the deep religious values (for Hindus) we attach with Kashmir.

We made a mistake in negotiating with terrorists once in Kandahar..We will not do it again.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> recent events unfolding will have me and a lot others think otherwise



Well all I can say is think hard,think again...



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i'm not in denial mode.
> *Several million of our countrymen have suffered from terrorism*, biblical-level floods, and outside efforts to meddle inside -- but with that said, world knows very well Pakistan stands shoulder to shoulder with the people and the land of Kashmir.
> 
> And our moral support to Kashmiri bretheren will never cease.



U forgot the words "Of our own creation to bleed India thru a 1000 cuts" and we r not responsible for that.

As for ur support to Kashmiri brethern...u r most welcome to do it. U do it because u think it advances ur country's interests.

But please dont cry RAW when we do wat we think is good for our interests.

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## ejaz007

*Slowly, we're winning hearts and minds in Kashmir*


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## KS

gubbi said:


> *That picture is NOT of Kashmir. Its of Lebanon (not even Palestinian), a Hezbollah mourning procession. *There is a Lebanese flag in the background. Geez, when will people ever learn! Using such images to stoke further unrest is despicable and downright cheap. But then what else can one expect from people with ulterior motives!
> 
> As for rest of the article, WHATEVER! You people keep your hopes high.



Good find Gubbi..even I was wondering where the Arabic came from...

Anyways S_O_C_O_M ur standards are faltering nowadays...please go back to usual standards...


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## ejaz007

*PROTESTERS SHOT FROM CLOSE RANGE*
*Docs At SMHS Reveal Gory Condition Of Victims*
SAMAAN LATEEF


Srinagar, Aug 3: In what can be termed as outrageous attack on the protesting youth in the Valley, all the 32 patients admitted in SMHS here have been hit by bullets at point-blank range and above abdomen.
Doctors in the hospital are seeing a pattern behind the police action on protesters. Doctors say forces are firing from close range to target the vital organs of protesters. All the injured admitted here have received bullets on eye, head, lungs, heart and abdomen, medicos said. All these patients have grievous injuries rendering them handicapped.
A teenager, Javaid Ahmad of Pattan received a bullet in his right eye from close range during clashes between protesters and police and paramilitary CRPF in his home town.
Doctors at SMHS stated that Javaids eye was damaged and he wont be able to see for the rest of the life, if at all he survives. Javaid is not the only person who has to beg for death if he survives. Several other cases are there in the hospitals, who have been hit above abdomen by bullets from close range by police and CRPF.
A senior doctor in SMHS pleading anonymity termed the situation as outrageous. He said looking at the injured admitted here clearly depicts that the forces in the Valley are to kill the protesters not to quell them. Aabid Hussain Mir of Bandipora is another case, who has been hit from very close range. Doctors termed the chances of his retaining the eye sight nil.
The 15 year old, Suhail Ahmad Dar of HMT is another victim of target firing. He received a bullet today in his abdomen, when forces fired on Eidgah Chalo procession in Parimpora.
Eyewitness told Greater Kashmir that police personnel hit Suhail from just 5 meters range. Suhail fell down and got drenched in blood. Subsequently, we rushed him to SMHS. After receiving the injured Suhail, doctors said he was pulse-less and in shock. Suhail was battling for life in the Operation Theatre, when this reporter visited the hospital. Doctors say he has been hit from just 5 meters range and lost one major vessel and got multiple gut proliferations. Expressing their helplessness, doctors outside Operation Theatre termed Suhails chances of survival bleak. We may lose one more child, they said.
A 15 year old girl, Nishu Jan of Shalimar was hit by bullet on head from close range. After seeing her deteriorating condition doctors referred her to SKIMS, Soura.
Muhammad Subhan Zargar is another injured, who received bullet in his chest from few meters away, doctors said. SMHS has received atleast 50 injured persons in past three days. At present 32 patients are admitted in SMHS, in which 18 are in wards and 12 in causality. All these patients have been hit above abdomen and from close range by police and paramilitary forces. Pertinently, hospital authorities refer injured patients, who get injuries below abdomen to Bone and Joints Hospital, Barzulla.

PROTESTERS SHOT FROM CLOSE RANGE Lastupdate:- Wed, 4 Aug 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com


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## ejaz007

---------- Post added at 12:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 PM ----------


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## Devil Soul

Kashmir Has Right To Decide Its Fate
India Blocking UN Resolutions
KUWAIT CITY, Aug 16: Kashmir has the right to decide on whether to join India or Pakistan or become an independent state, said the Thewabit Al-Ummah Group at a press conference Monday in solidarity with the people of Kashmir.

The groups secretary general, MP Mohammed Hayef, along with MPs Waleed Al-Tabtabaei and Jamaan Al-Harbash, attended the conference.

Calling on the United Nations (UN) to address the problem in Kashmir, Hayef pointed out this has been going on over the last 60 years. We have been hearing reports on human rights abuses and various forms of atrocities, including the Indian armored cars allegedly firing at unarmed children, who had nothing but stones to defend themselves. The UN has not done or said anything amid such atrocious acts, he lamented.

Expressing his disappointment over Indias failure to implement the UN resolutions that have become mere ink on paper, Hayef pointed out many people in the occupied territory have been missing, imprisoned, killed and raped, yet they have been branded as terrorists just because they chose to fight for their independence. He appealed to the human rights organizations to get their acts together to resolve the humanitarian issue in Kashmir. He also lashed out at the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) for its inability to push for the implementation of the resolutions to end the suffering of the people in Kashmir. 

Meanwhile, Al-Harbash opined the current situation in Kashmir requires unity among Muslims to avoid the recurrence of the problem in Palestine. He confirmed his solidarity with the people in Kashmir, stressing the need to raise the voice of victory in this area, in the same manner that relief goods are being sent to Pakistan. He called on the entire world to support Kashmir as it has done with East Timor until the latter attained its independence.

Al-Tabtabaei, on the other hand, believes the Kashmir issue resurfaced recently due to the prevalence of religious and political persecutions in this part of the world, adding that Britain left Kashmir when it withdrew from India.

Accusing India of occupying a Muslim land, Al-Tabtabaei asserted the UN has issued a resolution on the right of Kashmir to decide its fate but India has been impeding efforts in this regard.
?Kashmir has right to decide its fate?


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## KS

Devil Soul said:


> &#8216;Kashmir Has Right To Decide Its Fate&#8217;
> &#8216;India Blocking UN Resolutions&#8217;
> 
> ?Kashmir has right to decide its fate?



And wat exactly is that Thebawit Al -whatever group.. ??

is it some official government group in that Goa sized country..?


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## kugga

Interesting ... Seems like pressure is building up against India.. may be now can India understand that every thing happening in Kashmir is not due ISI or Pakistan.. 
It's because one can not supress people by force.


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## KS

kugga said:


> Interesting ... Seems like pressure is building up against India.. may be now can India understand that every thing happening in Kashmir is not due ISI or Pakistan..
> It's because one can not supress people by force.



Dude serioulsy do u think atleast for a moment that a dummy group's statement that too from kuwait is gonna put pressure on India..? 

Im sure even ur leaders dont take the Kuwaitis too seriously...India ..


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## Awesome

Great stuff, and so unexpected. I wish the leaders of the world would come forward and condemn India as well


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## RobbieS

Wow..lots of pressure, now that Kuwaiti MPs have spoken. A nation that only recently allowed its women to vote, is worried about the human rights in Kashmir. Give me a break...

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## Devil Soul

Karthic Sri said:


> And wat exactly is that Thebawit Al -whatever group.. ??
> 
> is it some official government group in that Goa sized country..?



Well in this goa sized country more than half million of ur countrymen live work and feed their families back home.

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## indushek

WTF we didn't care when the organization for oil producing countries in middle east issued statements many times.

We didn't bow down to US pressure even when they were not favourable to us.

Who says that we will listen to these weirdos.


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## Materialistic

> Dude serioulsy do u think atleast for a moment that a dummy group's statement that too from kuwait is gonna put pressure on India..?
> 
> Im sure even ur leaders dont take the Kuwaitis too seriously...India ..



He is raising voice towards UN not directly asking India to do anything, and if nothing else it has more weight than Indian PM's saying Kashmir is integral part of India.

Its not about that Kuwait has done something huge, it is that another Muslim country has raised voice over the issue again.

It will have no direct effect but can make other nations to wake up to this issue!!


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## KS

Devil Soul said:


> Well in this goa sized country more than half million of ur countrymen live work and feed their families back home.



So what..we have plenty of Americans working in my firm (TATA) alone...does that mean US will listen to watever India says..? lol at ur logic



Materialistic said:


> He is raising voice towards UN not directly asking India to do anything, and if nothing else it has more weight than Indian PM's saying Kashmir is integral part of India.
> 
> Its not about that Kuwait has done something huge, it is that another Muslim country has raised voice over the issue again.
> 
> It will have no direct effect but can make other nations to wake up to this issue!!



And for ur kind clarification is that group official spokesperson for the King of Kuwait(the real power)??

Even if it is, lets see if UN woke up to the superpower Kuwait's call and imposes sanction on India....


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## Devil Soul

Karthic Sri said:


> So what..we have plenty of Americans working in my firm (TATA) alone...does that mean US will listen to watever India says..? lol at ur logic



I neva mentioned in my post that india will or must listen to what these MPs are saying Oh boy u people do like to jump to conclusions on ur own, 2ndly i dont giv a sh!t if half of the americans work in u tata ... lol @ ur example


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## KS

Devil Soul said:


> I neva mentioned in my post that india will or must listen to what these MPs are saying Oh boy u people do like to jump to conclusions on ur own, 2ndly i dont giv a sh!t if half of the americans work in u tata ... lol @ ur example



U just proved wat I wanted.....I wanted out of ur own mouth that India nor any country will listen to the dummy group's statement.

And it was u who said abt half a million indians working in Kuwait..i just paid u back in ur own coin.


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## Devil Soul

Karthic Sri said:


> U just proved wat I wanted.....I wanted out of ur own mouth that India nor any country will listen to the dummy group's statement.
> 
> And it was u who said abt half a million indians working in Kuwait..i just paid u back in ur own coin.



i'm very realistic person thats why i said that you people don't have to listen to what these guys are saying, how can we expect you to listen to these people when ur not even bothered to follow the UN resolutions on Kashmir


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## SBD-3

Karthic Sri said:


> Dude serioulsy do u think atleast for a moment that a dummy group's statement that too from kuwait is gonna put pressure on India..?
> 
> Im sure even ur leaders dont take the Kuwaitis too seriously...India ..



Yeah they only take their own ministers seriously who qoutes a blog post to impress the parliament.....36% NASA scientists are Indians......


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## IndianRobo

Kuwaiti Blah Blah Blah's, talking About kashmir?? Gimme A Break Please


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## KS

hasnain0099 said:


> Yeah they only take their own ministers seriously who qoutes a blog post to impress the parliament.....



So what if that blog helps in improving the security of the country..they r most welcome to do so.Atleast that is better than doing nothing.



hasnain0099 said:


> 36&#37; NASA scientists are Indians......



Obviously U dont undertsand the context in which I said that..so dont start flaming.



Devil Soul said:


> i'm very realistic person thats why i said that you people don't have to listen to what these guys are saying, how can we expect you to listen to these people when ur not even bothered to follow the UN resolutions on Kashmir



Since u say that ur are a very realistic and a practical person I ll ask u one thing..

Why the heck should we listen to UNSC resolutions if that same thing was violated by Pakistan in 1965 war or whioch entails that we might loose a atrategic piece of territory..?

What advantage we get.?

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## Srinivas

kugga said:


> Interesting ... Seems like pressure is building up against India.. may be now can India understand that every thing happening in Kashmir is not due ISI or Pakistan..
> It's because one can not supress people by force.



What pressure??? 
This turmoil will come to an end soon and peace will be restored. Don't forget the elements behind the innocent deaths will have to pay back


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## Hulk

Some overexcited fellow, he is paid by Pakistan to say this no one else cares. Anyone willing to bet Kashmir is not going anywhere, in-fact it is in it's last leg of agitation.
Pakistan also got king of Saudi Aarabia as formal representative of Kashmir, why is he silent?


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## foxbat

What is Thewabit Al-Ummah Group? I am not able to find any references to this group on Google. Looks like Rajnikanth has already beaten it up. Thats why google cant find it. 

Seriously, anyone aware of what this group is?

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## civfanatic

bhagathsingh said:


> That guy is hospitalised for HIGH BP..humanity first.



Needed to be hospitalised for the torture he rxd


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## Agnostic_Indian

civfanatic said:


> Needed to be hospitalised for the torture he rxd



learn to appreciate good things even if it is your enemy.


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## EjazR

*Fire moves on quick knees - Comments & Analysis - Opinion - The Economic Times*

Independence day came and went with a disgruntled former policeman throwing a shoe at Omar Abdullah, the embattled chief minister of Jammu and Kashmir. Since June 11, when a teenager called Tufail Mattoo died after being hit in the head by a teargas shell, nearly 60 people, almost all of them young boys, have been killed by the police or central agencies like the CRPF in Kashmir. What began as random episodes of stone throwing now resembles a full blown intifada.

How did we get here? Initially, New Delhi pointed fingers across the border, arguing that the violence was sponsored, if not orchestrated, by Pakistan. Increasingly, this argument sounds threadbare: thousands of people dont break curfew, at risk of injury and death, because theyve been paid off. The anger in Srinagar is real  and has real causes.

New Delhi starts squirming every time Kashmiris raise slogans about azadi. It should, instead, listen more closely to what freedom Kashmiris want. Twenty years of trouble has convinced many people in the Valley that freedom from India isnt a viable option. Jammu in the south and Ladakh in the east arent going to be a part of azad Kashmir. And Pakistan isnt likely to give up the nearly-third part of the state that it controls. Nobody believes that a handful of districts  Srinagar, Sopore, Baramulla and Anantnag  can form an independent country.

But Kashmiris want freedom from fear, from constant bandhs and curfews that paralyse cities, and disrupt supplies of food, fuel and medicines. They want schools and colleges to open, businesses to function normally and for people to get the fundamental right to walk the streets without worrying that theyll catch a bullet. And they want a government they elected two years ago, to work for them.

For the last 32 years an innocuously named law, the Public Safety Act, has been in force in Jammu & Kashmir. Its a vaguely worded, but deadly piece of legislation that lets the police hold people for over two years without a trial or even without any charge, simply on the suspicion that they might do something dangerous. Agencies like Amnesty point out that people hauled away under this law have frequently been tortured. The Public Safety Act doesnt make people feel any safer  for ordinary folk its a menace.

For 20 years, the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA), which was created to tame the Naga insurgency in the 1950s operates in J&K. This allows the military to fire on people in disturbed areas. Troops can enter anywhere and arrest people without warrants. The local police is armed and dangerous with the PSA; the military and central security forces draw their reckless force from the AFSPA. In other states, police answer to the local government; state governments can, but rarely call the military out of its barracks. In Kashmir the state government has to struggle to call off security forces.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh correctly wants investments and jobs to move to Kashmir. But he wants this done by a committee, headed by his trusted adviser C Rangarajan, who has headed two similar committees in the past. The first was in 2005, when he had for company telecom tsar Sunil Mittal, Hero Hondas Sunil Munjal, J&K Banks boss Haseeb Drabu, Max India founder Analjit Singh and Duvvuri Subbarao, now the RBI governor, among others. Another set of panels was set up in 2006 to work on several topics: the economy panel was again headed by Rangarajan.



All these committees made many good suggestions, but nothing has happened on the ground. Kashmirs investment climate has frozen over and even state-owned companies have to be pushed to put a paisa there.

Indias mobile phone players are a competitive, adventurous lot and theyre the main private sector players there. But even theyre hobbled by government curbs  when the prime minister visits, the networks are switched off, sometimes SMSs are blocked and the intelligence bureau has recently asked for a ban on rolling out 3G services in J&K.

Among other things, Indias human rights watchdog does not operate in the state. K G Balakrishnan, a former chief justice of the Supreme Court, now heads this body. He wants the national human rights commission to function in J&K. What are the chances that hell be heard? The Right to Information law, a powerful tool for people to uncover information that the sarkar wants to conceal, also doesnt apply to J&K. Why not?

It doesnt need a committee to find whats going wrong in Kashmir. And it doesnt need another panel to find a way forward. If governments  in Srinagar and New Delhi  want peace in the Valley, here are some things which they should do. The state government should start by scrapping the PSA and make the police fully answerable to the elected government. New Delhi should scrap the AFSPA and get the military out of cities and back to patrolling the border.

Scrapping both these laws will be a huge booster for peoples morale. Supervised by elected governments, the police and the paramilitary will be forced to contain their trigger-happy instincts. Once the shooting stops, the protests will also become quieter.

Kashmir has an elected government, which now seems comatose. Its Omar Abdullahs job to crank it back to life. To do that, he has to make a start by visiting people whove been affected by the troubles and helping them out. He wont have to work too hard to find such people  theyre all over the place.

Omar doesnt have too much time to get down to the ground and win back some support. His main rival, the Peoples Democratic Party of Mehbooba Mufti has smelt blood and is gunning for the Congress-NCP government. All J&K parties came to a conference called by the PM last week  only the PDP stayed away.

Mehbooba  and her father Mufti Mohammed Syed  enjoy a huge amount of popularity in the city of Srinagar, whereas the Abdullahs, father and son are regarded as aloof and remote. With 21 assembly seats, the PDP was just seven seats short of the National Conferences 28. Its a gap that could vanish if troubles push this government beyond the brink and elections are called soon.

The Kashmiri-American poet Agha Shahid Ali once wrote, Fire moves on quick knees. In Kashmir, it does indeed.


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## KS

> So if we can have `Gujarati Pride' and `Oriya Pride' and `Tamil Pride' and `Bihari Pride', why can we not have `Kashmiri Pride'? Why should any championing of Kashmiri regionalism immediately be seen as a threat to India and an invitation to Pakistan? Should 'azaadi' even loosely defined necessarily strike fear in the heart of South Block?



Though there were many valid points in her blog she made one mistake (or rather Blunder) in comparing Kashmiris with the Rest of the example.

Kashmiris(or rather a group of them) ask for secession from the Indian Union while for the other mentioned communities, the Indian identity is the over-arching one above all other identities.

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## mjnaushad

Funny thing is he (CM ) dont know whats happening......Lol


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## mjnaushad

indianrabbit said:


> Just look at the way reporting is done in Pakistan, they have written ' A Muslim policemen'. These people cannot write anything without looking at religion. By the way let them celebrate, some idiots do not know why they are doing something, I would have understood if it was some none Kashmiri. Omar is a great leader and PDP is after him because of that, it's all politics she just want to win next election. After the election everything will be normal trust me.


Wasn't indian member laughing and jumping over a shoe news of zardari.....We laughed together there then whats the problem here?? I would say Hypocracy.


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## EjazR

indianrabbit said:


> Just look at the way reporting is done in Pakistan, they have written ' A Muslim policemen'. These people cannot write anything without looking at religion. By the way let them celebrate, some idiots do not know why they are doing something, I would have understood if it was some none Kashmiri. Omar is a great leader and PDP is after him because of that, it's all politics she just want to win next election. After the election everything will be normal trust me.



Well Pakistanis I meet always have a heart attack when I tell them that the local J&K police is almost 70&#37; muslim and that the J&K light infantry regiment is similarly almost 60-70% muslim. The CRPF or BSF or the ITBP ofcourse is another story as the last two are for border duties while CRPF poorly trained as it is, is used mainly for crowd control.

I don't think Omar has proven that he is great just yet. That's like calling Rahul Ghandhi great when he has not done anything. It is the crisis that makes a leader. Lot will depend on how he comes out of this. For the Kashmiri people's sake I hope he turns a page and becomes one.


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## EjazR

*Omar forgives shoe thrower, orders his release*

Srinagar: Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah says he has forgiven a police Head Constable who threw a shoe at him on Independence Day and has ordered his release.

A suspended Head Constable from Jammu and Kashmir, Ahad Jan, hurled a shoe at Omar at the Independence Day function in Srinagar on Sunday. It was an unexpected attack soon after Omar unfurled the national flag. (Read: Who is Ahad Jan? | (See Pics: Other shoe hurling incidents)

The Chief Minister had tried to take it in his stride, "I have no regrets that today as soon as I came a person shouted slogans. But if it's a shoe today, and not a stone in our hands, it couldn't be better." (Video Special: Shoe attacks - hits and misses)

An embarrassed security apparatus says the constable had been suspended, but can't seem to explain how he managed to get into the high security VIP corner and target the chief minister.


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## friendly_troll96

Karthic Sri said:


> So what..we have plenty of Americans working in my firm (TATA) alone...does that mean US will listen to watever India says..? lol at ur logic


Youre comparing the USA with superpaw-er India and Tata with Kuwait, Lullz @ your soberness!

Despite the fact:


Materialistic said:


> He is raising voice towards UN not directly asking India to do anything






Karthic Sri said:


> nor any country will listen to the dummy group's statement.


How come you can anticipate that? 



> And it was u who said abt half a million indians working in Kuwait..i just paid u back in ur own coin.



He says he doesnt give a sh!t about the American working in Tata, can you say the same about the Indians working in Kuwait? Do you think the Americans-in-Tata and Indians-in-Kuwait thing is a vis-à-vis situation? A negative answer to these statements would mean you badly failed at paying him back in his own coin.

You could have avoided the embarrassment by not dragging the US into this discussion though!


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## Hulk

See I know Omar for long, he is very mature person and has honest intentions, politicians do not like such persons and hence try to malign them. It was expected from him and same thing Bush could have done.

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## EjazR

civfanatic said:


> Needed to be hospitalised for the torture he rxd



civfanatic, use a balanced approach for once. He was roughly moved and beaten when being moved out of the parade ground forcibly. He was not beaten in police custody or tortured. His lawyer himself says that. So please stop spreading these lies. 

Listen for yourself what HIS lawyer has to say. Watche the video with the lawyer alking to a Kashmiri reporter below.
Internet campaign for shoe thrower Ahad Jan


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## Hulk

@mjnaushad I was pointing the use of word Muslim by paper. Just tells how religion comes everywhere.


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## IBRIS

mjnaushad said:


> Funny thing is he (CM ) dont know whats happening......Lol



*We bore our flag, our divided, yet bound Patriots never flinch when there respected flag is hoisted*. 

Just imagine what would of had happened if someone had thrown a shoe at your most honest politician, while flag hoisting.?
We already know his pants would of dropped before the shoe would hit the ground.


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## EjazR

*The Hindu : News / National : Shoe-thrower moved by Omar's Ramzan gift*

Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah on Tuesday pardoned suspended head constable Abdul Ahad Jan who had flung a shoe towards him during a function and ordered his release.

Mr. Abdullah also ordered the police to withdraw the case against Jan.

Releasing Jan on extremely compassionate grounds, Mr. Abdullah called him to his residence and gave him a patient hearing after which he directed his office to accompany him to his native village so that he could be with his family members during the fasting month, an official spokesman said.

Jan was taken into custody immediately after he hurled a shoe towards the Chief Minister while he was taking the salute from marching contingents after unfurling the national tricolour during the official Independence Day function in Srinagar on August 15.

The Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister said &#8220;the Holy month of Ramzan teaches us to be compassionate and forgive everyone. My steps are in conformity with teachings of Islam which does not preach hatred but only love and brotherhood.&#8221;

Omar hugged Jan and ordered the police to release him.

The suspended cop also profusely thanked the Chief Minister.

Visibly moved by Mr. Abdullah&#8217;s gesture, Jan became emotional and tears rolled down his cheeks after his meeting with the Chief Minister. Jan was equally thrilled to know that the Chief Minister was making arrangements to fly him out by the State helicopter to his native village in Ajjas in Bandipore.

The shoe flung by Jan missed the target but an unfazed Omar referred to the incident in his speech and said &#8220;It is the best way to protest. It is better to raise slogans and hurl shoes but avoid stone pelting.&#8221;

As many as 15 policemen were suspended pending inquiry after the incident.

Jan, who was suspended in May after a criminal case was registered against him, has been chargesheeted in two cases of extortion and being drunk during duty hours.

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## Kashmiri Nationalist

indianrabbit said:


> Utter nonesense, if people do not want policemen to enter their religious place they should not do politics there.



Point is, they weren't police but soldiers. Even so if they were "doing politics there" a sacred religious shrine should be respected.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

brahmastra said:


> Gilani should keep his dirty mouth shut, and care about your kashmir only.



Touched a nerve have we? What happened to freedom of speech in the worlds biggest democracy?


----------



## Kompromat

All they need is freedom from Indian Imperialism.


----------



## magg

> All they need is freedom from Indian Imperialism.



India needn't worry as according to one of the threads here, the Taliban is with India. That will take care of Pak.


----------



## KS

Azad Kashmir said:


> Touched a nerve have we? What happened to freedom of speech in the worlds biggest democracy?



Freedom of speech is only for Patriotic law abiding Indians...not for paid stone throwing separatists.


----------



## KS

friendly_troll96 said:


> Youre comparing the USA with superpaw-er India and Tata with Kuwait, Lullz @ your soberness!
> 
> Despite the fact:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How come you can anticipate that?
> 
> 
> 
> He says he doesnt give a sh!t about the American working in Tata, can you say the same about the Indians working in Kuwait? Do you think the Americans-in-Tata and Indians-in-Kuwait thing is a vis-à-vis situation? A negative answer to these statements would mean you badly failed at paying him back in his own coin.
> 
> You could have avoided the embarrassment by not dragging the US into this discussion though!




lol buddy if u cant understand a simple "analogy" (not comparison) then there is nothing i could help u in...


----------



## karan.1970

foxbat said:


> What is Thewabit Al-Ummah Group? I am not able to find any references to this group on Google. Looks like Rajnikanth has already beaten it up. Thats why google cant find it.
> 
> Seriously, anyone aware of what this group is?



I second the question. What group is this..


Dude.. Great Sig..


----------



## gubbi

Asim Aquil said:


> Great stuff, and so unexpected. I wish the leaders of the world would come forward and condemn India as well



We will develop thick skin *IF* the world leaders ever start condemning India. After all, we learn very fast considering what we see....


----------



## KS

karan.1970 said:


> I second the question. What group is this..
> 
> 
> Dude.. Great Sig..



Me too..Even I searched the Google and got only this :









*ps.: *See the other 2 sites that have come up...U ll get a hint.

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## prototype

BENNY said:


> Change the keyword from *thewabit* to *therabbit* for more results.





@topic,this wabit rabbit whatever group is claiming India is blocking UN resolution,can anybody hear mention exactly how,the last time i checked India does not enjoyed the veto power,seems all veto users r stooges of India,if it is so then how pressure is building on us


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## dabong1

Karthic Sri said:


> "We suceeded in Junagadh,U failed in Kashmir..As simple as that..why harping now if u were incapable at that time.?




Try and try again......is that not what they say at school.


----------



## KS

dabong1 said:


> Try and try again......is that not they say at school.



That u can very well try and ur the most welcome to do so..after all we also want to finish this issue once and for all 

But dont raise the bogey of UNSC resolutions,plebiscite..etc.


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## GreenStar

> Some overexcited fellow, he is paid by Pakistan to say this no one else cares. Anyone willing to bet Kashmir is not going anywhere, in-fact it is in it's last leg of agitation.



And where is your proof of Pakistan paying money to an overexcited fellow.....or is it a your imagination. Pressure is slowly mounting on India....it can no longer oppress the people of Kashmir...it needs to change its polices in how it treat's the Kashmiri people. But I applaud Kuwait for standing up for justice.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Karthic Sri said:


> But dont raise the bogey of UNSC resolutions,plebiscite..etc.



That is part of trying, politically ... and plebiscite and UNSC resolutions are very much part of the issue since India committed to them and promised the Kashmiris plebiscite as a means of determining their future status as part of India and Pakistan - you know, the same thing they did after invading and occupying Junagadh despite the State acceding to Pakistan, and in Hyderabad despite the ruler wishing to remain independent.

So sorry, but we can't entertain your illegitimate request.

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## KS

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That is part of trying, politically ... and plebiscite and UNSC resolutions are very much part of the issue since India committed to them and promised the Kashmiris plebiscite as a means of determining their future status as part of India and Pakistan - you know, the same thing they did after invading and occupying Junagadh despite the State acceding to Pakistan, and in Hyderabad despite the ruler wishing to remain independent.
> 
> So sorry, but we can't entertain your illegitimate request.



Agno i said previoulsy...we suceeded in Junagadh,Hyderabad...u failed in a similar objective in Kashmir.

How can u blame India for ur in-efficiency??

And the UNSC resolutions are *NON-BINDING-RESOLUTIONS*.


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## GreenStar

> lol



Are you high....the weed must be some potent sh!t.....lol.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Karthic Sri said:


> Agno i said previoulsy...we suceeded in Junagadh,Hyderabad...u failed in a similar objective in Kashmir.


We are not done yet, and neither are the Kashmiris from the looks of it, despite Indian claims to the contrary.


> How can u blame India for ur in-efficiency??
> 
> And the UNSC resolutions are *NON-BINDING-RESOLUTIONS*.



The only places you succeeded were ones that were cut off from Pakistan. And lest you forget, Pakistan deployed its army a long time after Indian forces entered J&K, and still ended up with over a third of the region.

And you can whine about 'non-binding' all you want, but the reality is that India and its leadership clearly committed to plebiscite at international fora, and unilaterally, for the Kashmiris to determine their future status, and the Kashmiris are demanding that commitment be fulfilled.

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## GreenStar

> Oh yeahhh..."international" pressure is indeed mounting on puny India



Indeed it is, but carry on with your agressive behavior towards Kashmir...it will only mount to more international condemnation....as a result Indian reputation as a democratic country will go down the drain.


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## mrwarrior006

sorry Kuwait its our internal problem stay out of it


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Karthic Sri said:


> Freedom of speech is only for Patriotic law abiding Indians...not for paid stone throwing separatists.



If you weren't forcibly occupying and suppressing the Kashmiris with hundreds of thousands of security forces, they wouldn't be throwing stones.

The initial act of violence was committed by India in occupying the region through force and denying the Kashmiris their right to self-determination - everything else from the Kashmiri end has been in self defence and a reaction to that violence by the Indian State.

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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> We are not done yet, and neither are the Kashmiris from the looks of it, despite Indian claims to the contrary.
> 
> 
> The only places you succeeded were ones that were cut off from Pakistan. *And lest you forget, Pakistan deployed its army a long time after Indian forces entered J&K, and still ended up with over a third of the region*.
> 
> And you can whine about 'non-binding' all you want, but the reality is that India and its leadership clearly committed to plebiscite at international fora, and unilaterally, for the Kashmiris to determine their future status, and the Kashmiris are demanding that commitment be fulfilled.



Ummeed pe duniya Kaayam hai. Koshish karte raho. 

Quick Comparison of the ground situation from the day Indian forces got involved to the day Cease fire was declared.

*The day Indian forces got involved : 27th Oct 1947*







Cease Fire line: 27 Nov 1948





So not too much in the claim of capturing 1/3rd of the region despite Indian Army's involvement. MOst of the land Pakistan holds is what it captured before Maharaja of Kashmir came into the Indian fold. Actually post that while Pakistan gained in the remote Northern areas, it got pushed back in the valley

And about East Pakistan, Pakistan being cut off is no excuse. Is it? Pakistan should have planned for managing a remote province. It wasnt as if Pakistan realized a day before that they had something called East Pakistan that was geographically cut off from the mainland.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

mrwarrior006 said:


> sorry Kuwait its our internal problem stay out of it



Sorry India, it is not - free Kashmir.

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## mrwarrior006

*@Agnostic Muslim*


> Sorry India, it is not - free Kashmir.



no need to be sorry coz its indian kashmir


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

mrwarrior006 said:


> ^^^no need to be sorry coz its indian kashmir



Indian OCCUPIED Kashmir, and Disputed Territory, hence not your internal issue, as testified to by the UNSC resolutions.


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## mrwarrior006

First give full freedom to ur own women-they have there right to decide there fate

then u can talk about others


----------



## sergente rehan

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> What pressure???
> This turmoil will come to an end soon and peace will be restored. Don't forget the elements behind the innocent deaths will have to pay back



You mean indian army which is doing lot of atrocities and responsible for killing of innocnet Kashmiries from past 60 years will soon pay back?...then you are right they definitely have to pay for all their war crimes.


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## mrwarrior006

> Indian OCCUPIED Kashmir, and Disputed Territory, hence not your internal issue, as testified to by the UNSC resolutions.



we dont care about UNSC

oly fool will think it cares about world it cares about oly one and u know who


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Karthic Sri said:


> Freedom of speech is only for Patriotic law abiding Indians...not for *paid stone throwing separatists*.





 
How much do u want to shut the B.S rantin ?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

to hindustan:

fix your internal insurgencies, so that when Kashmir DOES get independence from hindustan -- there will be no need to worry about further mutinies and insurrections within -whether it's ethnic bengalis or tamils or even the communist naxals




It is a SHAME:

--that Sri Nagar, one of the paradises of the subcontinent, is unfortunatly bleeding 

--that there is presence of (unwelcomed) occupational forces which are 700,000 in number; making it the most militirised place in the world

as a result, our Kashmiri people are living in an open prison


--that in order to get a medicine and other essential in occupied Kashmir, one has to pass through manned checkpoints where he/she is stopped no matter if they are young or old; and asked ****** questions and if they (occupational forces) wishes they can take a person away for interrogation for a mere suspicion (negates the whole ''integral'' and ''democratic'' nonsense)

--that tiny pandit minority in Kashmir ditched the land overnight by the intructions of then Governor (and for purely economic reasons) and then hindustanys will talk about ''pandit genocide'' ... total garbage,* negligible *propaganda

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## mohan goyal

mrwarrior006 said:


> we dont care about UNSC
> 
> oly fool will think it cares about world it cares about oly one and u know who


u summed up pretty well


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## linkinpark

UNSC resolutions are defunct when Pakistan and India signed Simla accord. Now its a bilateral issue. Even the most power country US couldn't do sh!t about this what will these bunch of culturally backward kuwaitis would do.

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## Meengla

India Faces Broader Revolt in Kashmir - Slide Show - NYTimes.com

[Pardon if this slide show is already posted]

Looks like this is a very non-Kuwaiti source to me. The writer is not very charitable to the Indian viewpoint.


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## sergente rehan

mrwarrior006 said:


> First give full freedom to ur own women-they have there right to decide there fate
> 
> then u can talk about others



I think that goes for India too. 

Anyway you can't distort killing of so many innocent Kashmiries and all the atrocities that indian army is doing with your bullshit statement.


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## GreenStar

> sorry Kuwait its our internal problem stay out of it



So when Israel attacked the flotilla ship....what right did India have to condemn Israel...because technically it is there internal matter. So your analogy does not work...I am afraid.....or does India love using double standards.

India condemns Israeli raid of flotilla bound for Gaza - People's Daily Online

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## mrwarrior006

*@sergente rehan*


> I think that goes for India too.
> 
> Anyway you can't distort killing of so many innocent Kashmiries and all the atrocities that indian army is doing with your bullshit statement.



i am oly saying look at urself before pointing fingers at others


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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> to hindustan:
> 
> fix your internal insurgencies, so that when Kashmir DOES get independence from hindustan -- there will be no need to worry about further mutinies and insurrections within -whether it's ethnic bengalis or tamils or even the communist naxals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is a SHAME:
> 
> --that Sri Nagar, one of the paradises of the subcontinent, is unfortunatly bleeding
> 
> --that there is presence of (unwelcomed) occupational forces which are 700,000 in number; making it the most militirised place in the world
> 
> as a result, our Kashmiri people are living in an open prison
> 
> 
> --that in order to get a medicine and other essential in occupied Kashmir, one has to pass through manned checkpoints where he/she is stopped no matter if they are young or old; and asked ****** questions and if they (occupational forces) wishes they can take a person away for interrogation for a mere suspicion (negates the whole ''integral'' and ''democratic'' nonsense)
> 
> --that tiny pandit minority in Kashmir ditched the land overnight by the intructions of then Governor (and for purely economic reasons) and then hindustanys will talk about ''pandit genocide'' ... total garbage,* neglible *propaganda



The 1st part of your post is off topic so while I can refer to a bunch of stuff in Pakistan, I will avoid answering it. On the rest, its India's internal matter on how it manages a part of land inside its borders. Does not owe any answers to Pakistan. Keep calling Kashmir / Kashmiri people "yours". Wont change a thing.

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## mrwarrior006

*@Green star*


> So when Israel attacked the flotilla ship....what right did India have to condemn Israel...because technically it is there internal matter. So your analogy does not work...I am afraid.....or does India love using double standards.
> 
> India condemns Israeli raid of flotilla bound for Gaza - People's Daily Online



ok i will tell my *GOI *to not release statement like this here after happy


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## GreenStar

> First give full freedom to ur own women-they have there right to decide there fate
> 
> then u can talk about others




Can you explain more on that....technically women do have freedom in Pakistan or Britain, to my knowledge.


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## mrwarrior006

^^^i am talkin about kuwaits


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## GreenStar

> about this what will these bunch of culturally backward kuwaitis would do.



If there was a Kuwaiti poster here...couldn't he say the same about India.....I mean you do have people running around......marrying animals.....plus you do have the caste system...so India is not too far off from the mark....wouldn't you agree.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Am i the only having a difficulty finding others source for this news?

Even if it might be an official diplomatic statement from Kuwait,it will only be a weekend talk like earlier Gaddafi's statement.


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## GreenStar

> i am talkin about kuwaits



Well at least they are changing...so progress is being made....yet 60 years on India still having problems with the Kashmiri people.

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Leaders hail Kuwait women's votes


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## mrwarrior006

^^^na man kashmir is also developing

eduction,BPO,infrastructure etc etc

just compare it to pakistan occupied kashmir

in b/w let them change then tey can change us


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That is part of trying, politically ... and plebiscite and UNSC resolutions are very much part of the issue since India committed to them and promised the Kashmiris plebiscite as a means of determining their future status as part of India and Pakistan - you know, the same thing they did after invading and occupying Junagadh despite the State acceding to Pakistan, and in Hyderabad despite the ruler wishing to remain independent.
> 
> So sorry, but we can't entertain your illegitimate request.



There were a bunch of committments that Pakistan had to fulfil before the plebiscite. Havent seen any movement on them for last 62 years. So yeah, its a bogey of UNSC resolutions. 

btw, when did UNSC last take cognizance on this resolution. Wasnt that in 1950s?

Here's a thought. If the UNSC resolution is so sacrosanct, why doesnt Pakistan get a follow up done thru the UN. You know, get UN to hammer India for not following its resolution for last 62 years. Thats going to be tough, specially since 1965 happened in between. Once Pakistan tried to implement a military solution, bypassing the mediator and failed, trying to call for implementaiton of the original solution wont carry too much credibility. And thats pretty visible today.

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## GreenStar

> just compare it to pakistan occupied kashmir



Yet Pakistan occupied Kashmir...does not have the level of protests...in which we see in Indian occupied Kashmir.....in where the security forces are forced to use guns. So for all that development in which you are supposedly saying, seems to have gone to waste...as the end product is not there.


----------



## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> And where is your proof of Pakistan paying money to an overexcited fellow.....or is it a your imagination. Pressure is slowly mounting on India....it can no longer oppress the people of Kashmir...it needs to change its polices in how it treat's the Kashmiri people. But I applaud Kuwait for standing up for justice.



Just for the record. Its not Kuwait govt making this statement but some wannabe group based in Kuwait


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## Abu Zolfiqar

any sane voice can surely see that they sure as hell aint' your people!!

all you gotta do is follow the news and know the ground realities.....in fact, 3 Kashmiris were shot dead yesterday if I'm not mistaken.


fanning the flames, one Kashmiri martyr at a time. I personally feel Pakistan must take some kind of action, as the people in Azad Kashmir are also becoming increasingly angry over hindustany atrocities

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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Sorry India, it is not - free Kashmir.



Sorry Pakistan, It is. J&K is a part of *Free* India


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## mrwarrior006

> Yet Pakistan occupied Kashmir...does not have the level of protests...in which we see in Indian occupied Kashmir.....in where the security forces are forced to use guns. So for all that development in which you are supposedly saying, seems to have gone to waste...as the end product is not there.



mate i will tell u in simple and clear words kashmir is here to stay with INDIA it aint going anywhere from india 
wat ever may be the end result


----------



## GreenStar

> Just for the record. Its not Kuwait govt making this statement but some wannabe group based in Kuwait



Karan welcome back to PDF. My reply was to a Indian poster, who claimed that Pakistan paid a person to be overexcited, so I was wondering where he got that idea from. It could be a wannabe group, but there are elements in Kuwait, that are supporting the freedom of Kashmir....so it is a start, as slowly more sympathy will go to the Kashmiri people.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> So when Israel attacked the flotilla ship....what right did India have to condemn Israel...because technically it is there internal matter. So your analogy does not work...I am afraid.....or does India love using double standards.
> 
> India condemns Israeli raid of flotilla bound for Gaza - People's Daily Online



It works. Israel attacked the ship while in international waters. Kashmir is within the existing borders of India.

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## anurag_singh

GreenStar said:


> Are you high....the weed must be some potent sh!t.....lol.



lol tumhari jal gayi itne me. rote raho kashmir nahi milne wala.


----------



## linkinpark

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> any sane voice can surely see that they sure as hell aint' your people!!
> 
> all you gotta do is follow the news and know the ground realities.....in fact, 3 Kashmiris were shot dead yesterday if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> 
> fanning the flames, one Kashmiri martyr at a time. *I personally feel Pakistan must take some kind of action,* as the people in Azad Kashmir are also becoming increasingly angry over hindustany atrocities



You don't have the capability. Its nothing but a wet dream. You have tried it with Kargi war and you see what happened to your NLI.


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## GreenStar

> mate i will tell u in simple and clear words kashmir is here to stay with INDIA it aint going anywhere from india
> wat ever may be the end result



Who know's anythink can happen.....when the Black people were the slaves of America....they did not have the belief of free rights...but over time things begun to change...and now we have a Black American President.....so it is possible.


----------



## GreenStar

> lol tumhari jal gayi itne me. rote raho kashmir nahi milne wala.



English please....its against the forum rules to use Hindi or Urdu when debating on a discussion thread.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> Yet Pakistan occupied Kashmir...does not have the level of protests...in which we see in Indian occupied Kashmir.....in where the security forces are forced to use guns. So for all that development in which you are supposedly saying, seems to have gone to waste...as the end product is not there.



You may want to read this 

Dr Shabir Choudhry's blog: They are angry because I promote a pro Kashmir agenda

besides the recent report from EU parliament on the comparison between 2 parts of Kashmir


----------



## mrwarrior006

> Who know's anythink can happen.....when the Black people were the slaves of America....they did not have the belief of free rights...but over time things begun to change...and now we have a Black American President.....so it is possible.



ok we will see tat, till tat enjoy indian kashmir 

oh in B/W i dont mind kahmiri as indian prime minister he has every right to be


----------



## anurag_singh

GreenStar said:


> Who know's anythink can happen.....when the Black people were the slaves of America....they did not have the belief of free rights...but over time things begun to change...and now we have a Black American President.....so it is possible.



Black people didn't get a separate country. In India we will welcome a kashmiri president or P,M but will not give a separate country.

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## linkinpark

gubbi said:


> That picture is NOT of Kashmir. Its of Lebanon (not even Palestinian), a Hezbollah mourning procession. There is a Lebanese flag in the background. Geez, when will people ever learn! Using such images to stoke further unrest is despicable and downright cheap. But then what else can one expect from people with ulterior motives!
> 
> As for rest of the article, WHATEVER! You people keep your hopes high.



What else they can do other than recycling photos from Palestine, lebanon and other places. This is the same kind of brainwashing used by militant and terrorist organizations by showing unrelated pictures and instigating people. But then we have seen all these and we have teached humility. They will mend ways or perish one or the other day.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> Karan welcome back to PDF. My reply was to a Indian poster, who claimed that Pakistan paid a person to be overexcited, so I was wondering where he got that idea from. It could be a wannabe group, but there are elements in Kuwait, that are supporting the freedom of Kashmir....so it is a start, as slowly more sympathy will go to the Kashmiri people.



Thanks GS. Paid thing seems a bit far fetched. However why Kuwait, there are people within India that support freedom for Kashmir. As a matter of fact I had dinner with one of them today. His perspective though was around reducing the expense GoI incurs on Kashmir. But then such individual or small time group opinions do not matter in the larger scheme of things.

For example, people have been branding Pakistan as a terrorist nation in far larger numbers than this. Doesnt change a thing for Pakistan.. Does it..

If you look at it a little more objectively (difficult due to our affiliations with India and Pakistan respectively) the retraction of fake UN Sec Gen's statement of Kashmir and even Kofi Annan's statement a few years back, really sets the tone on how the world views this.

But the posturing from both sides will continue, without much changing on the ground


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## linkinpark

anurag_singh said:


> Black people didn't get a separate country. In India we will welcome a kashmiri president or P,M but will not give a separate country.



People always try to compare oranges to apples and in the process gets their panties in a bunch . Kashmiris have all the equal rights just as any other Indian citizen even right to protest (peaceful ones) and freedom of speech. So, comparing them to Black slaves is utter dishonesty.


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## GreenStar

> Black people didn't get a separate country. In India we will welcome a kashmiri president or P,M but will not give a separate country.



Well for starters Black people never wanted a separate state...just more rights....and it took them a long time., but they achieved it. The same determination if used by the Kashmiri people, can eventually give there freedom and dream of a separate state.


----------



## GreenStar

> As a matter of fact I had dinner with one of them today. His perspective though was around reducing the expense GoI incurs on Kashmir. But then such individual or small time group opinions do not matter in the larger scheme of things.



If he spoke that openly in India....would he get harrased for being a traitor...because his views are not pro Indian.....I am just curious to know the answer to this.



> For example, people have been branding Pakistan as a terrorist nation in far larger numbers than this. Doesnt change a thing for Pakistan.. Does it..



Actually it does Karan...it puts pressure on Pakistan...to contain terrorism....and in some cases sanction could be levied....if the International community does brand it a terrorist nation.


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## karan.1970

GreenStar said:


> If he spoke that openly in India....would he get harrased for being a traitor...because his views are not pro Indian.


No he wont be. As I said, there are people who think that Kashmir is not worth the trouble. Specially in a world where size and economic might are not linked. But those people are a very small group who has no say in the over all sentiment of 1.2 billion people



GreenStar said:


> Actually it does Karan...it puts pressure on Pakistan...to contain terrorism....and in some cases sanction could be levied....if the International community does brand it a terrorist nation.


Lots of difference between International community (govts of countries) and a few people/groups within those countries

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## anurag_singh

GreenStar said:


> *If he spoke that openly in India....would he get harrased for being a traitor...because his views are not pro Indian.....I am just curious to know the answer to this.*
> 
> 
> 
> Actually it does Karan...it puts pressure on Pakistan...to contain terrorism....and in some cases sanction could be levied....if the International community does brand it a terrorist nation.



Where do You live do you not know about Arundhati Roy . read about her . Buddy India is also a democracy therefore we didn't cry much over difference of opinion .


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Ummeed pe duniya Kaayam hai. Koshish karte raho.
> 
> Quick Comparison of the ground situation from the day Indian forces got involved to the day Cease fire was declared.
> 
> *The day Indian forces got involved : 27th Oct 1947*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cease Fire line: 27 Nov 1948
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So not too much in the claim of capturing 1/3rd of the region despite Indian Army's involvement. MOst of the land Pakistan holds is what it captured before Maharaja of Kashmir came into the Indian fold. Actually post that while Pakistan gained in the remote Northern areas, it got pushed back in the valley
> 
> And about East Pakistan, Pakistan being cut off is no excuse. Is it? Pakistan should have planned for managing a remote province. It wasnt as if Pakistan realized a day before that they had something called East Pakistan that was geographically cut off from the mainland.



Was that an own goal? Since the gains made by Pakistan in the North, despite entering the conflict after the Indian forces had already taken apart much of the rag tag tribal opposition, are pretty clear and clearly larger than the gains made by Indian forces in the East.

The province was remote and on the other side of India - logistically keeping it supplied during a conflict was a nightmare - a developed and economically powerful nation might be able to spend the kinds of money necessary to raise two identical armies, air forces and navies, and the infrastructure to maintain them, but that is simply not possible for a developing nation to do, whether India (even with its current economic growth, let along in 1971) or Pakistan.

So the point remains - India's major successes have been in regions that were geographically cut off from Pakistan but attached to India.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> There were a bunch of committments that Pakistan had to fulfil before the plebiscite. Havent seen any movement on them for last 62 years. So yeah, its a bogey of UNSC resolutions.


That has been discussed in the UNSC resolutions thread, especially in the last few pages. Head on over and take a gander. It was India that rejected the various UN commission plans on demilitarization, not Pakistan.



> btw, when did UNSC last take cognizance on this resolution. Wasnt that in 1950s?


The UNSC resolutions remain valid till the dispute is resolved or new resolutions are passed.


> Here's a thought. If the UNSC resolution is so sacrosanct, why doesnt Pakistan get a follow up done thru the UN. You know, get UN to hammer India for not following its resolution for last 62 years. Thats going to be tough, specially since 1965 happened in between. Once Pakistan tried to implement a military solution, bypassing the mediator and failed, trying to call for implementaiton of the original solution wont carry too much credibility. And thats pretty visible today.


Unfortunately its a hypocritical world, Indian lobbying and likely Russian intervention would prevent any such move. But the current resolutions are more than enough, what is needed is India fulfilling its commitment to them and the Kashmiris.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

linkinpark said:


> You don't have the capability. Its nothing but a wet dream. You have tried it with Kargi war and you see what happened to your NLI.



Nothing happened to the NLI - speculative death tolls from various figures looking to score political points do not pass for actual casualty figures.

Most credible reports place Pakistani casualties at a few hundred - given Indian forces were at a disadvantage trying to regain the heights Indian casualties would be many times higher given equal quality of training and motivation on both sides. You simply cannot overlook the basic constraints facing an offensive force trying to retake higher ground (and this ground was very high and very remote).


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

mrwarrior006 said:


> we dont care about UNSC


Right, that's why so many Indians wet their pants talking about becoming a permanent member of the UNSC and why the GoI is willing to postpone the issue of veto for several years in order to get into the UNSC.


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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *Unfortunately its a hypocritical world*, Indian lobbying and likely Russian intervention would prevent any such move. But the current resolutions are more than enough, what is needed is India fulfilling its commitment to them and the Kashmiris.



Good analysis. While you are at it i.e harping on redundant UN resolutions, why not extrapolate it further back into time to address the root cause of the conflict, which is invasion of the then independent state of Kashmir by Pakistani regulars and Pakistan sponsored "tribals" on flimsy grounds.

Wasn't there a prerequisite for Indian troop withdrawal? What was that again? Oh yeah, Pakistani troops & armed and sponsored "tribals" are to be withdrawn from Kashmir and then India will have to reduce its troops and THEN conduct a plebiscite.

Pakistan conveniently ignores that part and then you want to bring subsequent UN resolutions. When that is logically countered you go back to Junagadh and Hyderabad to support your intervention in Kashmir. And then you call India and its policies hypocritical. Excellent Mr. AM. You are just beating around the bush.

The "singularity", if you may, of the conflict is the invasion of Kashmir by Pakistan. Undo that and you got the mess cleared. You may then pine for the Kashmiri people's plight to your heart's content.

Yes indeed, it IS a hypocritical world!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

linkinpark said:


> UNSC resolutions are defunct when Pakistan and India signed Simla accord. Now its a bilateral issue. Even the most power country US couldn't do sh!t about this what will these bunch of culturally backward kuwaitis would do.



Nonsense, read the Simla Agreement:


> (i) *That the principles and purposes of the Charter of the United Nations shall govern the relations between the two countries.*
> 
> (ii) That the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations *or by any other peaceful means mutually agreed upon between them.* Pending the final settlement of any of the problems between the two countries, neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation and both shall prevent the organisation, assistance or encouragement of any acts detrimental to the maintenance of peace and harmonious relations.



Nothing in Shimla overrides the UNSC resolutions or international arbitration - otherwise why are India and Pakistan still agreeing to approach the World Bank to resolve IWT issues? Or for that matter why does India keep whining to the international community about terrorism concerns it blames on Pakistan?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> Good analysis. While you are at it i.e harping on redundant UN resolutions, why not extrapolate it further back into time to address the root cause of the conflict, which is invasion of the then independent state of Kashmir by Pakistani regulars and Pakistan sponsored "tribals" on flimsy grounds.
> 
> Wasn't there a prerequisite for Indian troop withdrawal? What was that again? Oh yeah, Pakistani troops & armed and sponsored "tribals" are to be withdrawn from Kashmir and then India will have to reduce its troops and THEN conduct a plebiscite.
> 
> Pakistan conveniently ignores that part and then you want to bring subsequent UN resolutions. When that is logically countered you go back to Junagadh and Hyderabad to support your intervention in Kashmir. And then you call India and its policies hypocritical. Excellent Mr. AM. You are just beating around the bush.
> 
> The "singularity", if you may, of the conflict is the invasion of Kashmir by Pakistan. Undo that and you got the mess cleared. You may then pine for the Kashmiri people's plight to your heart's content.
> 
> Yes indeed, it IS a hypocritical world!


I am not being hypocritical - Indian intervention in Junagadh predated the Pakistani intervention, and came months after the accession was signed by the Nawab of Junagadh. India protested this in various diplomatic cables to Pakistan (which I will reproduce some day when I have the time), and yet invaded the State after promoting instability in it.

So when Indians blame Pakistan for militarily intervening in J&K, they ignore their own sides identical actions in Junagadh. Hence it is very relevant, as is the point that Pakistan has not violated any preconditions of the UNSC Resolutions - it is India that rejected the UN proposals on demilitarization.


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## EjazR

*Delhi admits 12 killings were unprovoked*

Srinagar, Aug 17: Union Home Minister Pallaniapan Chidambaram Tuesday admitted that at least a dozen incidents of deaths, during Police action against Kashmiri protesters, were unprovoked and these deaths would be investigated shortly.

Interacting with a delegation of Kashmiri students, Chidambaram said, &#8220;our forces have been maintain possible restraint but I admit at least a dozen killings might have happened due to unprovoked firing. We shall carry out proper investigation into such incidents.&#8221;
A forty-member student delegation from Kashmir called on the home minister in his North Block chamber Tuesday evening. The delegation was led by Vice Chancellor of Islamic University, Professor Sidiq Wahid. Sources said the meeting was organized by BJP MP Tarun Vijay who was beside Chidambaram while he spoke to the Kashmiri delegation. When contacted, Professor Wahid confirmed the meeting saying, &#8216;We tried to create an interface between youth and government of India.&#8221;
The home minister is learned to have shared with the visiting students his thoughts on possible solutions of Kashmir but has insisted that the solution must be found out within the ambit of Indian constitution. &#8220;Constitution of India is flexible enough to accommodate any solution that would bring peace and dignity to the people of Kashmir.&#8221; 
According to the participants Chidambaram has assured that the number of armed forces would be reduced in civilian areas if the protests and amount of violence comes down. *&#8220;I was behind the removal of ten thousand troops from Kashmir when the violence level dropped there. I promise I will ensure reduction of troops in civilian areas.&#8221;*


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

linkinpark said:


> What else they can do other than recycling photos from Palestine, lebanon and other places. This is the same kind of brainwashing used by militant and terrorist organizations by showing unrelated pictures and instigating people. But then we have seen all these and we have teached humility. They will mend ways or perish one or the other day.



There are plenty of pictures of Indian Army atrocities in J&K and kashmiri suffering at the hands of India - the accidental use of one incorrect image does not change that.

Talk about clutching at straws.

Visit the sticky in this section on Indian atrocities to see some images if you really feel like it.


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## EjazR

^^^
Peaceful being the operative term,

From the tribal invasion in 48, to operation Gibraltor in 65, support to militant in the 90s and Kargil war in 98, the peaceful solution was never given a chance. It takes time to build up to the peaceful solution and every violent act excludes the settlement of the problem.


In this case, *three Kuwaiti MPs *were present in the conference out of the entire 100+ Kuwaiti parliament. It is there right to speak and air their opinion, however from their statements they seem to not know the complex nature of the conflict and have a one-sided view. The government of Kuwait however probably will have a more nuanced approach. There is no doubt that many people want the settlement of this issue. Many Indians including the govt. wants a settlement of the issue. But this can be made only in an atmosphere of peace.

Case in point is the post 2003 era under Musharraf where all support to militants was stopped and peaceful era ushered in Indian side of Kashmir. As per Kasuri, a settlement was almost done and just had to be signed. However, the judicial crisis and later the Mumbai attacks scuttled that solution.

So its not like India is not trying to even solve the issue. All PM whether it be the BJP led govt. or Congress led govt. have tried to solve the issue inspite of several provocations in contrary to the peaceful settlement agreement. Even now, the official GoI position is, just convict the Mumbai attack planners and we will talk on all issues including Kashmir.

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## riju78

The guilty should be punished


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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I am not being hypocritical - Indian intervention in Junagadh predated the Pakistani intervention, and came months after the accession was signed by the Nawab of Junagadh. India protested this in various diplomatic cables to Pakistan (which I will reproduce some day when I have the time), and yet invaded the State after promoting instability in it.


I guess you haven't read some of my replies concerning that particular topic. Let me refresh that here. Junagadh and Hyderabad were Muslim ruled Hindu majority states. Agreed? Now the state of Pakistan was created on the pretext that Muslims and Hindus cannot stay peacefully in one country/land. And so a large number of Muslims migrated to the newly created state while a similar number of Hindus crossed over into India. 
Now if Pakistan was created for Muslims, why in the world did Pakistan accept accession of a Hindu majority state. If you argue about secularity of then Pakistan, the whole concept for creating Pakistan falls flat. So, that means creation of a state for Muslims was only a ploy for power hungry leaders of the time? 
IMHO, India was justified in interfering in Junagadh. Your argument for Junagadh doesn't carry weight. Either the concept of Pakistan for sub-continent's Muslims was a farce or Junagadh issue is irrelevant to Kashmir. Your choice.


> So when Indians blame Pakistan for militarily intervening in J&K, they ignore their own sides identical actions in Junagadh. Hence it is very relevant, as is the point that Pakistan has not violated any preconditions of the UNSC Resolutions - it is India that rejected the UN proposals on demilitarization.


Like I said before, Junadagh is irrelevant to Kashmir issue. Pakistan has to withdraw its forces from all of Kashmir (which it will never do) for India and UN to decide how to go about implementing the plebiscite (which wont happen unless the former is done with).

So what exactly is Hypocrisy again?

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

riju78 said:


> The guilty should be punished



That would also include the Indian State for not implementing its commitment and promise of plebiscite for 63 years.


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## EjazR

*FT.com / Comment / Opinion - Prosperity can buy peace in Kashmir*

It has been a summer of death in Kashmir. In early June, a 17-year-old student, Tufail Ahmad Mattoo, was killed when a tear gas canister fired from close range by Indian security forces attempting crowd control hit him as he returned home from tutoring for medical exams. Last Sunday night, Fida Nabi, a 19-year-old high school student, was taken off life support after six days in hospital with a bullet in his brain.

Interspersed between these two tragedies, more than 50 other civilians have suffered similar fates  senseless deaths caused by overzealous security personnel operating on instructions from a government in New Delhi that seemed devoid, until recently, of any idea how to win back hearts and minds in Kashmirs idyllic valley.

In the past, India blamed Pakistan-backed militants to excuse its security forces unruly behaviour in the Muslim-majority region that both states claim. But New Delhi cannot point the finger at Islamabad any more. Pakistans domestic disarray, political ineptitude and daily struggles against a resurgent Taliban, floods, economic strife  you name it  have all but eliminated its military, even moral, support for insurgency in Kashmir. Cross-border incursions into Indian-held Kashmir are at an all-time low.

The problem today is almost exclusively defined by indigenous Kashmiris who cannot find jobs, lack basic services and have no civilised way to air their grievances about poor governance, either at the local or federal level. That is why resolving Kashmirs crisis must start by raising the economic fortunes of its people to such an extent that a political solution can be found through reasoned debate.

Manmohan Singh, Indias prime minister, took important steps in that direction last week when he announced intentions to accelerate job creation in Kashmir. By bringing in former central bankers, high-technology billionaires, and government trade and industry experts to advise him, Mr Singh showed a keen understanding of the political reality he faces. Men and women who have jobs do not have time to gather in the streets and throw stones so anti-riot police can disperse them with force, perpetuating a cycle of violence that seems to have no logical end.

Historically in Kashmir, peace was most possible when hawkish political and military leaders in Islamabad and New Delhi were able to see the mutual benefit in making peace without compromising security. Such was the case when Atal Behari Vajpayee, then Indias prime minister from the rightist Bharatiya Janata party, reached across Kashmirs line of control in 2000 and accepted a ceasefire by Pakistani-backed militants. At that time, Chander D. Sahay, Indias intelligence chief for Kashmiri affairs and later its top spy, and I created a framework for resolving the dispute that sought to empower Kashmiris economically and to remove the terror from their daily lives by withdrawing Indian forces and Muslim militants in confidence-building stages. Our belief was that a prosperous Kashmir would give leaders in India and Pakistan the space to find a political solution.

A year later, Mr Vajpayee and Pakistans General Pervez Musharraf (who had sanctioned the militants 2000 offer of ceasing hostilities) nearly reached accord on a final framework for settling the dispute by agreeing a blueprint to create an autonomous region out of both Indian and Pakistani-held Kashmir. Such an accord would have buttressed economic stability with political unity, reuniting families and lowering tensions sufficiently for Indian security forces to go home. Pakistani army hawks would have been able to argue that Kashmiris had secured peace with their support  a win-win for all concerned. In secret negotiations in 2007, the idea of an autonomous Kashmir was again put on the table by Indian and Pakistani negotiators just before Gen Musharraf lost his grip on power.

Today, conditions are ripe for such a solution to be resurrected. Pakistans internal disarray makes the arguments against peace by its hawkish military leaders nearly irrelevant. The generals, to put it bluntly, are busy elsewhere putting out fires they started years ago. The countrys flamboyant president, Asif Ali Zardari, is a wheeler-dealer who gets along just fine with his neighbours to the east and is only too happy to replace militant camps with clothing factories.

Mr Singh should take advantage of this, for example by creating special economic zones where specific products that benefit both countries are allowed to trade freely. This would soften political resistance in Pakistan to any Indian-driven solution. Microfinance in Kashmir should also become a priority of the Indian government to make employment durable over the long term. Enlisting the support of wealthy Indians, as Mr Singh has, begins a public-private partnership that infuses government-backed enterprise with free-market innovation.

He should also consider contributions from civic-minded Pakistanis throughout the world who could help build up the Pakistani side of Kashmir. I will commit my own wealth in large amounts to this effort, and I know where to find other Pakistani-origin support to join hands with me.

Mr Singhs recent statements indicate that he is finally prepared to use his personal political capital to end the violence. That is a good start  but only a start. He remains the best hope for a peaceful resolution. It is time for his government and people throughout the region to get behind him and heal Kashmirs gaping wounds.


-----------------------------------------------
_Mansoor Ijaz (born in 1961) is a prominent businessman of Pakistani ancestry, a financier, and a media commentator on terrorism, mostly in relation to Pakistan, Iraq and Afghanistan.[1] He is the founder and chairman of Crescent Investment Management LLC, a New York investment partnership since 1990 that includes James Alan Abrahamson, former director of President Reagan's Strategic Defense Initiative._

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## SBD-3

karan.1970 said:


> It works. Israel attacked the ship while in international waters. Kashmir is within the existing borders of India.



it is not within the boarder of india........it is a disputed region........I dont know how do you guys come up with such a stupid logics like "kuwait is a small country", "They need to give their women freedom".......I honestly think that we can have 1 billion+ stand out comedians........


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## Devil Soul

its really hard to accept that slowly slowly the opinions regarding Kashmir is changing, few argue Oh just few MPs , but it always starts with a few


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

EjazR said:


> ^^^
> Peaceful being the operative term,
> 
> From the tribal invasion in 48, to operation Gibraltor in 65, support to militant in the 90s and Kargil war in 98, the peaceful solution was never given a chance. It takes time to build up to the peaceful solution and every violent act excludes the settlement of the problem.


You left out the Indian invasion of Junagadh, the invasion of Siachen and Indian support for terrorists and insurgents in East Pakistan and subsequent invasion there.

But when India herself violates her commitment to plebiscite and declares that the LoC shoudl be made the border, without any resort to the Kashmiris opinion, then it is India herself that is moving away from 'political settlement'.


> In this case, *three Kuwaiti MPs *were present in the conference out of the entire 100+ Kuwaiti parliament. It is there right to speak and air their opinion, however from their statements they seem to not know the complex nature of the conflict and have a one-sided view. The government of Kuwait however probably will have a more nuanced approach. There is no doubt that many people want the settlement of this issue. Many Indians including the govt. wants a settlement of the issue. But this can be made only in an atmosphere of peace.
> 
> Case in point is the post 2003 era under Musharraf where all support to militants was stopped and peaceful era ushered in Indian side of Kashmir. As per Kasuri, a settlement was almost done and just had to be signed. However, the judicial crisis and later the Mumbai attacks scuttled that solution.
> 
> So its not like India is not trying to even solve the issue. All PM whether it be the BJP led govt. or Congress led govt. have tried to solve the issue inspite of several provocations in contrary to the peaceful settlement agreement. Even now, the official GoI position is, just convict the Mumbai attack planners and we will talk on all issues including Kashmir.


I disagree that the Indian side has ever been interested in anything except prolonging negotiations - I have my suspicions over the cancellation of the talks with Musharraf just when they were about to be finalized as well. India chose a domestic issue in Pakistan to cancel the talks, that to me sounds suspiciously like a pretext to stop negotiations and end any forward movement.


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## brahmastra

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That would also include the Indian State for not implementing its commitment and promise of plebiscite for 63 years.



fulfilling all preconditions of 63 year old plebiscite is not possible for both India and Pakistan. So, its not possible.
Either India and Pakistan should free both Kashmir or accept LOC as IB.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

brahmastra said:


> fulfilling all preconditions of 63 year old plebiscite is not possible for both India and Pakistan. So, its not possible.
> Either India and Pakistan should free both Kashmir or accept LOC as IB.



Yes it is completely possible - the UN merely needs to be allowed in to verify voter lists of residents and validate and register those who have migrated (Kashmiri pandits and the millions of Kashmiris settled abroad).

This is not a major issue but an excuse invented by Indians to not allow the Kashmiris to exercise their right to self-determination.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Gilani says Kashmir is not part of India ​*
Written by MTT News Desk 
Tuesday, 17 August 2010 17:46 







Srinagar, August 17, 2010: The Chairman of APHC, Syed Ali Gilani has denounced the recent statement of Indian Prime Minister, in which he described Jammu and Kashmir as integral part of India.

Syed Ali Gilani said that the statement does not reflect the ground realities and thus, unrealistic.

The APHC Chairman was talking to the media in Srinagar. While commenting on the satement of Indian PM, he further said that Jammu and Kashmir is internationally recognised disputed territory and its future was yet to be decided. He said that such assertions were aimed at hoodwinking the international community and this approach posed a threat to the regional and world peace. 

The Jamaat-e-Islami in occupied Kashmir, JKLF-R and Mahaz-e-Azadi also took strong exception to the assertion of Indian Prime Minister.

Kashmiri uprising against illegal Indian occupation continues for the third month in a row. people took to the streets in Maisuma, Dargah Hazratbal, Bimna, Naid Khai, Mattan, Islamabad, Pulwama, Tral, Awantipora and Bandipora areas and staged anti-India demonstrations. Indian forces resorted to firing, excessive teargas shelling and heavy baton charge to disperse the demonstrator at many places, injuring over a dozen of people. The occupation authorities imposed curfew in Awantipora, Taral, Pulwama, Mattan, Islamabad and several localities of Srinagar.

A youth, who was injured when Indian troops resorted to brute force against demonstrators at Mattan in Islamabad on Friday, succumbed to his injuries at a hospital in Srinagar, today.

Complete shutdown continued for the fifth consecutive day, today, in Banihal tehsil of Ramban district in protest against the arrest of youth by Indian police.

The lawyers in Srinagar continued to boycott the court proceedings, today, to protest the continued illegal detention of the President of High Court Bar Association, Mian Abdul Qayoom and General Secretary, Ghulam Nabi Shaheen. The lawyers assembled in the lower court complex and staged a silent sit-in.

Gilani says Kashmir is not part of India


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

M.A? ...... he is that A-hole.... used to be on fauxnews.
Someone mentioned he he Merzai , not sure if that has
anything to do with what he says at times.


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## brahmastra

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> You left out the Indian invasion of Junagadh, the invasion of Siachen and Indian support for terrorists and insurgents in East Pakistan and subsequent invasion there.



Indian invasion of Junagadh,Siachen happened after you invaded Kashmir. you have no moral ground to talk about Junagadh, Siachen and Haydrabad.


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## brahmastra

Who is Gilani to decide it.
Does Gilani know that P-0-K is not part of pakistan as per pakistani constitution.

only 3 district of entire kashmir has suffered violence. People do complete shutdown because they don't have choice. if they don't do then those terrorist will burn their shops and it happened in past many times.

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## ambidex

1. Junagarh 
nothing to do with Kashmir.
2. Siachen
no influence on socio political status of Kashmir. soft conflict.
3. Bangladesh
again nothing to do with kashmir_India never bargained 1972 victory for Kashmir.


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## PakSher

Good Job Gilani. Kashmir is part of greater Pakistan soon.

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## desiman

WE DONT CARE, GET IT

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## FreekiN

desiman said:


> WE DONT CARE, GET IT



And they don't care when Mr. Singh says Kashmir is an 'integral part' of India.

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## brahmastra

lets not go off topic and stick to the main topic.
we got whole thread about this UNSC plebiscite is possible or not.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

brahmastra said:


> Indian invasion of Junagadh,Siachen happened after you invaded Kashmir. you have no moral ground to talk about Junagadh, Siachen and Haydrabad.


Indian forces were in clashing with the Nawab's forces in October 1947, for all intents and purposes Indian intervention either preceded the Tribal invasion or was around the same time, hence it is very valid to raise Jungadh when Indians start moaning about Pakistani military action in J&K in 1947.

And Siachen preceded Kargil, so it is very relevant in terms of Indians raising the issue of Kargil.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

ambidex said:


> 1. Junagarh
> nothing to do with Kashmir.
> 2. Siachen
> no influence on socio political status of Kashmir. soft conflict.
> 3. Bangladesh
> again nothing to do with kashmir_India never bargained 1972 victory for Kashmir.



All three debunk the canards of 'Pakistan alone has used military force' and 'India has never been an aggressor', hence they are very valid when Indians moan and complain about Pakistani military intervention in J&K and Kargil.


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## anathema

As years go by ...As new generations come...as government carries out developmental activities.....you will suddenly find that Kashmir has become an integral part of India --just as it was... Nothing did and nothing will change it.

Thanks.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

When people start resorting to arguments like 'so what, do what you can, we are too strong, blah, blah, blah', you know that they have utterly and completely lost the moral, ethical and legal arguments supporting their case.

Those kinds of arguments are pretty much all you see from Indians nowadays.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

anathema said:


> As years go by ...As new generations come...as government carries out developmental activities.....you will suddenly find that Kashmir has become an integral part of India --just as it was... Nothing did and nothing will change it.
> 
> Thanks.



That is what Indians were saying ten years ago too, and this time around it is those who have benefited from 'developmental activities' -college students, professionals etc. - who are part and parcel of the protests.


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## sunny001

There is no point to this discussion. India is not going to let kashmir go that easily. No matter what Pakistanis like to believe, no country could ever coerce India into giving up Kashmir. They can't do it now, they could never do it ten years down the line.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

sunny001 said:


> There is no point to this discussion. India is not going to let kashmir go that easily. No matter what Pakistanis like to believe, no country could ever coerce India into giving up Kashmir. They can't do it now, they could never do it ten years down the line.



Again, when people lose all moral, ethical and legal arguments on an issue, they resort to 'you can't make me'. The latter is pretty much standard fare from Indians of late.


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## brahmastra

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Indian forces were in clashing with the Nawab's forces in October 1947, for all intents and purposes Indian intervention either preceded the Tribal invasion or was around the same time, hence it is very valid to raise Jungadh when Indians start moaning about Pakistani military action in J&K in 1947.
> 
> And Siachen preceded Kargil, so it is very relevant in terms of Indians raising the issue of Kargil.



doesn't that mean gaining those undecided princely state by invading suite us but you(as both invaded undecided states as around sametime ). and that is the reason about all these crying by pakistan now.


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## sunny001

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Again, when people lose all moral, ethical and legal arguments on an issue, they resort to 'you can't make me'. The latter is pretty much standard fare from Indians of late.



Yes, I could talk of morals, ethics or whatever. But what's the point. GOI could never give away Kashmir for the fear of loosing power for next 20 years at least. Pakistan or any other country for that matter couldn't force India do so. So ya, no point in discussion.

No matter what you and I discuss ground reality is not gonna change. You say India has no morals, I would say look at Pakistan first. This would go on for few hours. And all this wouldn't make an ounce of difference, would it? Why waste both our precious time?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

sunny001 said:


> Yes, I could talk of morals, ethics and whatever. But what's the point. GOI could never give away Kashmir for the fear of loosing power for next 20 years at least. Pakistan or any other country for that matter could force India do so. So ya, no point in discussion.
> 
> No matter what you and I discuss ground reality is not gonna change. You say India has no morals, I would say look at Pakistan first. This would go on for few hours. And all this wouldn't make an ounce of difference, would it? Why waste both our precious time?



Yes precisely, see post above.

Why even bother to respond when you admit you have lost moral, ethical and legal arguments? There is certainly no point reiterating 'you can't make me', like a child of four.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

brahmastra said:


> doesn't that mean gaining those undecided princely state by invading suite us but you(as both invaded undecided states as around sametime ). and that is the reason about all these crying by pakistan now.



Junagadh was not 'undecided'. The Nawab had signed the instrument of accession and had it delivered to Pakistan in September. India was aware of this. There are over a dozen diplomatic cables between the two governments outlining India's displeasure with the Nawab's decision and demanding that Pakistan annul the accession.


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## sunny001

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Yes precisely, see post above.
> 
> Why even bother to respond when you admit you have lost moral, ethical and legal arguments? There is certainly no point reiterating 'you can't make me', like a child of four.



When did I admit India or me has lost morals. I just said there is no point in discussing morals because that would lead to nothing. If you can't read the comprehension, please do not come up with the twisted conclusions. 

'Four year old' is not me but you, as you keep coming back to morals when there is no point in discussing them. We can come back to reasoning when GOI has any intentions of doing a referendum in Kashmir.


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## RamGorur

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Indian forces were in clashing with the Nawab's forces in October 1947, for all intents and purposes Indian intervention either preceded the Tribal invasion or was around the same time, hence it is very valid to raise Jungadh when Indians start moaning about Pakistani military action in J&K in 1947.


If by intervention you mean military intervention then, for all intents and purpose, it came after the tribal invasion of Kashmir. Diplomatic intervention was however in India&#8217;s right given that Nawab&#8217;s execution of IoA in favour of Pakistan, and Pakistan&#8217;s acceptance of such IoA, was against the spirit of understanding reached between the two nations, regarding the accession of Princely States. 

In any case it doesn&#8217;t matter what precedes another because via Mountbatten India had made it clear that India was amenable to a plebiscite in Junagadh, Kashmir and Hyderabad under the auspices of UN. Just as India expected Pakistan to reject the accession of Junagadh simply on the basis of IoA, India was ready to reject the accession of Kashmir on similar basis, and leave the decision on finality of such accession to respective constituents.

That was on 1st Nov, 1947, before India even entered Junagadh. That rejection, by Jinnah no less, robbed Pakistan of any moral or ethical ground to claim plebiscite in Kashmir or accusing India of hypocrisy.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And Siachen preceded Kargil, so it is very relevant in terms of Indians raising the issue of Kargil.


According to Gen. Musharraf (_In The Line of Fire_), Pakistan itself was planning to sneak up on India and leave it with a _fait accompli_ at Siachen. India got wind of it and apparently, according to the good General, it was because of the faulty planning on Pakistan&#8217;s part, particularly about the timing of the operation, that India was able to steal a march on Pakistan.

Its like initiating a race and then on loosing one&#8217;s own race, accusing the winner for winning.


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## indianpatriot

1.the day Kashmir becomes independent...it will act like a gift state by Pakistani govt for Taliban and Al qaeeda which will then shift from swat to Indian Kashmir an save Pakistan from falling apart and will also pinch India in Himanchal Pradesh and Jammu.....

2.Kashmir will become like erstwhile Afganistan with strict Sharia Laws and human right violations more than claimed by Pakistan by India on Kashmiris.

3.and all this regardless Kashmir becomes part of Pakistan or remains independent in latter case a furious and frustrated Pakistan will send violence through borders to teach Kashmiris a lesson for not joining Pakistan quite similar to what happened in East Bengal.

4.Then Kashmir will come back crying to India again for help....

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## ejaz007

anathema said:


> As years go by ...As new generations come...as government carries out developmental activities.....you will suddenly find that Kashmir has become an integral part of India --just as it was... Nothing did and nothing will change it.
> 
> Thanks.



The reality on the ground is different. The first generation during 50's only waited for India and Pakistan to decide. The second generation during 70's protested peacefully for their right to self determination. The third generation during 90's took up arms and started fighting. So with every change of generation the tactics have also changed and become bloodier than before.

With every coming of new generation the hatred has only increased instead of decreasing let alone remaining the same.


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## k7x

indianpatriot said:


> 1.the day Kashmir becomes independent...it will act like a gift state by Pakistani govt for Taliban and Al qaeeda which will then shift from swat to Indian Kashmir an save Pakistan from falling apart and will also pinch India in Himanchal Pradesh and Jammu.....
> 
> 2.Kashmir will become like erstwhile Afganistan with strict Sharia Laws and human right violations more than claimed by Pakistan by India on Kashmiris.
> 
> 3.and all this regardless Kashmir becomes part of Pakistan or remains independent in latter case a furious and frustrated Pakistan will send violence through borders to teach Kashmiris a lesson for not joining Pakistan quite similar to what happened in East Bengal.
> 
> 4.Then Kashmir will come back crying to India again for help....




dont speak about the Pakistan action.... 

1.They can use F16 and even they will use JF17 to bomb the terrorist in their soil. that is fine for them . but if India kills those innocent terrorist who crosses LOC from Pakistan side they are freedom fighters and innocents ...India does not have any value for Human rights.. 

2.In Baluchistan they will use army/isi/air force to kill the separatist leader, but in India , Mr Gilani and his Huriyat folks are getting police protection and even then they will complain Inida does not have any human rights. 

3. Few Months before they complained Inida is trying to make pakistan a dessert. India was telling build a dam and utilize water properly. but they told next war will be for water with Inida , now there is so much flood, in few months they will again blame for Inida for flood as well as drought. again India is the enemy 

4. How many people are getting killed in Pakistan a day, and how many people are getting Killed in kashmir a day, the ratio will speak for it. 

In pakistan innocents are getting killed , I mean innocent here because these are people who dont have any idea about what is going to happen to them. like market , places of worship schools etc.

In Inida a 1000s as a mob coming to torch and stone a police station should be knowing that police have guns in their hands and they are not innocents as per the police point of view.. again Inida does not compare to treating innocent fairly 

5. In China people are not allowed to pray during Ramadan using loudspeaker, no public worship allowed etc etc.. but still they are there best friends for Pak, because of unknown reason. 

In Inida tax collected from all people including hindus will be used to send 1000s of Muslims to Haj ...and still we are enemy number 1 


People in Pakistan have so far passed the blame to others and never bothered about present. Armed forces runns and enjoys because of single reason. India. 

If Inida wanted to Invade Pakistan , it would have done long back, if it wants land we have some small countries next to us but have we taken an inch from them ... but see , China claims part of Kashmir, and you have gifted your part of Kashmir to your true friend. 

Truth is always bitter and it needs lots of courage to accept it. Pakistan uses hate against india as the source of National integrity. so till that attitude change nothing will change..

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## Krazy-blazer

mrwarrior006 said:


> First give full freedom to ur own women-they have there right to decide there fate
> 
> then u can talk about others



Good job throwing out stereotypes, who the hell told you they don't?


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## S_O_C_O_M

*'India represents fear and terror in Kashmir'​*
By Iftikhar Gilani

NEW DELHI: A Kashmiri student stunned Nitin Gadkari, the president of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), by telling him that India in Kashmir represented fear and terror. 

A student delegation, arranged by the Shyama Prasad Muherjee Foundation, a think-tank to showcase them to BJP president, pleaded the Indian public to listen to their aspirations. 

An eloquent Afsana, a student delegate, told the BJP president that India had long represented fear and terror. "I mean, when the word 'India' comes to a Kashmiri's mind, a common Kashmiri, what comes in mind is a soldier with a gun in his hand. Fear and terror is all what a common Kashmiri feels," she said. The students also asked him to understand the Kashmiri youth and their aspirations. 

"It's really nice to be here and to see that there are wonderful people around in India who are really ready to listen to us, to listen to our aspirations, to listen to what we feel. It's really, really good to be here and nice to know how wonderful Indian people are," she added.

Over 56 students from Kashmir University, Islamic University for Science and Technology and other professional colleges are in New Delhi to interact with Union Home Minister P Chidambaram, BJP leader Sushma Swaraj, Islamic scholar Maulana Wahiduddin Khan and Chief Election Commissioner SY Quarishi.

Gadkari, however, said Kashmir is an inseparable part of India and the people of Kashmir have the right to develop. "I feel that we all should understand the basic grassroots' problems. We agree that Kashmir is an inseparable part of India. We cannot tolerate its separation from India. I also agree that people who stay there, we don't have any problem with their religious rights," said Gadkari.

Gadkari accused Pakistan of waging a "proxy war" on India through "terrorism". Asked why the government had adopted an "appeasement policy" for separatists despite knowing who are the "instigators of violence" in the valley, Gadkari said, "Politics need some qualitative change. Our national issue should not be mixed up with the vote bank policy. That is the problem."

"Nehru accepted special status to Indian-held Kashmir. Our party does not agree to it," Gadkari said. He also said his party did not have any objection to the "religious rights" of the Kashmiris but he did not elaborate further.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

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## third eye

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *
> 
> "It's really nice to be here and to see that there are wonderful people around in India who are really ready to listen to us, to listen to our aspirations, to listen to what we feel. It's really, really good to be here and nice to know how wonderful Indian people are," she added.
> 
> ​*


*

A fine example of selectively choosing a headline by the media .

The statement above from the same article clears the air.​*


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## indian navy

India has to learn from china in Kashmir case 

and law should be change every Indian should allow go and live any where in the country 

problem will solve


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## indushek

This old fool says lot of things who cares

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## SpArK

*Gadkari, however, said Kashmir is an inseparable part of India and the people of Kashmir have the right to develop. "I feel that we all should understand the basic grassroots' problems. We agree that Kashmir is an inseparable part of India. We cannot tolerate its separation from India. I also agree that people who stay there, we don't have any problem with their religious rights," said Gadkari.

Gadkari accused Pakistan of waging a "proxy war" on India through "terrorism". Asked why the government had adopted an "appeasement policy" for separatists despite knowing who are the "instigators of violence" in the valley, Gadkari said, "Politics need some qualitative change. Our national issue should not be mixed up with the vote bank policy. That is the problem."*


Thanks to SOCOM for this wonderful piece of article.

I think u havent read it properly and jumped seeing the title.


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## friendly_troll96

Karthic Sri said:


> lol buddy if u cant understand a simple "analogy" (not comparison) then there is nothing i could help u in...



You seem to be manipulating simple/obvious things by complicating them so that they can yield results of your choice.

You were trying to give a comparison there and as soon as I pointed it out you opted to call it analogy. But, its not an analogy either as you cant analyze things disregarding the basic element of a given topic. So, dumbology would be a better term to name your BS. 

An analogy wont pay you back in your own coin only a comparison would, while dumbology gets you suspended.


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## S_O_C_O_M

...............................


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## roach

Oops S_O_C_O_M you're slipping, looks like you forgot to read the whole article. Not expected of one of the ardent most anti-India posters.

tsk, tsk.


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## Areesh

And that Gadkari guy is the president of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP). I think it is enough to define him.


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## EjazR

*Kashmir Images :: Details*

Jammu, Aug 17 (UNI): A Pakistan-trained surrendered militant today demanded probe into the killing of his mother and brother, allegedly by his mentor who had facilitated his training across the border.

Bashir Ahmed of Surankot alleged that his mother and brother were killed by Mohammad Manzoor, also resident of his village in the border district of Poonch, but he remains a free man. He demanded police probe into the double murder.
''Manzoor is an active militant in the area and he sends youths across the border for training of arms but despite knowing the facts, police have taken no action against him,'' Ahmed told reporters here this afternoon.
He said he and his friend Zaffar Iqbal were also sent to *****************-Kashmir (***) by Manzoor for training in 1999, adding they returned after three years.
''Manzoor frequently visits *** but still moves freely in the area,'' he said.
Ahmed alleged that Manzoor also blackmailed him and had seized his ancestral property and demanded cash. He sought justice from the government.
''He used to threaten me that he will reveal police about my training across the border due to which I prefered to lay down my arms, but Manzoor is still free and indulges in terrorist activities under the nose of police,'' alleged the surrendered militant.


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## EjazR

How the Kashmir papers are reporting the event


*Kashmir Images :: Track II with a difference!*
BJP talks with Kashmiri youth, stresses peace

New Delhi, Aug 17: Amid continuing unrest and killings in the Kashmir, the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) Tuesday began an initiative to calm the tempers of the Valley's youth, holding a dialogue with groups of students from several universities.
BJP president Nitin Gadkari inaugurated the in-camera dialogue organised by the Shyama Prasad Mukherjee Research Foundation (SPMRF), whose director is Rajya Sabha MP and party spokesman Tarun Vijay.
About 60 students from the Kashmir University, Islamic University for Science and Technology and other professional colleges from the Valley are taking part in the dialogue, an SPMRF spokesperson said. The delegation is led by Islamic University's Vice-Chancellor Siddiq Wahid.
In his opening remarks, Gadkari said Jammu and Kashmir was an integral part of India. "This matter is non-negotiable. We are ready for a dialogue on any other issue regarding the Kashmir situation."
"For a political dialogue to take shape on the emerging situation in the Kashmir valley, people need to shed violence," he added.
Gadkari said that "the real solution to the problem of Kashmir lies in educating its youth and ensuring greater economic reforms in the region," adding that the Indian constitution guaranteed aspirations of all sections of the society.
Tarun Vijay said that it was for the first time, a mass interaction on peace in Kashmir was held in Delhi, with majority of the participants being students of Kashmir University and Islamic University. Representatives of Kashmiri Pandit migrants too attended the dialogue.
"In the time to come, Kashmiri youth will lead the nation in different spheres," he said.
The dialogue participants also met Home Minister P. Chidambaram, an SPMRF release said.
The Kashmiri youth will interact with Leader of Opposition in the Lok Sabha Sushma Swaraj and young MPs from various parties Wednesday, Vijay said.

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## Trichy

i think Mr. Gilani is in Drugs, while comment abt Indian PM. any ways stupied always on blame others.


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## EjazR

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> You left out the Indian invasion of Junagadh, the invasion of Siachen and Indian support for terrorists and insurgents in East Pakistan and subsequent invasion there.
> 
> But when India herself violates her commitment to plebiscite and declares that the LoC shoudl be made the border, without any resort to the Kashmiris opinion, then it is India herself that is moving away from 'political settlement'.


The initial years of partition are fraught with allegations and counter-alelgations. however, According to a Muslim League loyalists there was a way this could have been resolved even then. Pakistani leaders accept the acession of Junagadh and Hyderabad to India in return for Kashmir. Shaukat Hyat Khan unlike his father was a Muslim League loyalist.

Here is an excerpt from a lengthy article http://www.countercurrents.org/wkhan220710.htm


> Further proof of this is available in another book by an important Pakistani leader, Sardar Shaukat Hayat Khan. This book was originally written in Urdu under the title Gumgashta Qaum. Its English title is The Nation That Lost Its Soul. In this book, Sardar Shaukat Hayat Khan reveals:
> 
> &#8216;When Mountbatten arrived in Lahore when fighting broke out in Kashmir, he addressed an important dinner meeting which was attended by the Pakistani Prime Minister Liaqat Ali Khan, the Governor of the Punjab, and four Ministers from the Punjab, where he delivered a message from Patel. In his message, Patel suggested that India and Pakistan should abide by the principles that had been agreed upon between the Congress and the Muslim League with regard to the political future of the princely states, according to which the states would accede to India or Pakistan depending on the religion of the majority of their inhabitants as well as their contiguity to either of the two countries. Accordingly, Patel suggested that Pakistan should take Kashmir and renounce its claims to Hyderabad Deccan, which had a Hindu majority and which had no land or sea border with Pakistan. After delivering this message, Mountbatten retired to the Government House to rest.&#8217;
> 
> Sardar Shaukat Hayat Khan further relates:
> 
> &#8216;I was in-charge of Pakistan&#8217;s operations in Kashmir. I went to see Liaqat Ali Khan, and pointed out that Indian forces had entered Kashmir and that Pakistan could not succeed in driving them out using the tribal raiders to ensure that Kashmir became part of Pakistan. I even said that it seemed unlikely that the Pakistani Army could succeed in doing so. Hence, I insisted, we must not reject Patel&#8217;s offer. But Liaqat Ali Khan turned to me and said, &#8220;Sardar Sahib! Have I gone mad that I should leave the state of Hyderabad Deccan, which is even larger than the Punjab, in exchange for the mountains and peaks of Kashmir?&#8221;
> 
> &#8216;I was stunned at Liaqat Ali Khan&#8217;s reaction, shocked that our Prime Minister was so ignorant of geography, and at his preferring Hyderabad Deccan over Kashmir. This was nothing but living in a fool&#8217;s paradise. To acquire Hyderabad was clearly impossible, and we were rejecting an opportunity that would have given us Kashmir. Yet, Liaqat was totally unaware of the importance of Kashmir for Pakistan. That is why I resigned in protest as in-charge of Kashmir operations.&#8217;




Still after the formalizing of LoC, there were no hostilities, but there were still negotiations on the future status of J&K. The pace of the negotiations might have been fast and slow at times but it was always there. The unnecessary operation Gibraltor just added to the mistrust in the newly created nations and the resulting consequence of 71 was not far off. After Bhutto agreeing to formalizing the LoC as an international border but asking time to sell it to the public, the Indian leadership had thought the matter was resolved and it just needed to be formalized in public. However, the support of Jihadi groups post Afghanistan in combination with wrong policies of New Delhi in J&K resulted in the militant insurgency that soon consumed the people there. There was no troop presence in civilians areas before this. Nor were there any acts like AFSPA or PSA being applied. It was only after 89 that such a turn took place. Ofcourse there are also the allegations of Sikh insurgency and the Siachin expedition as well as funding of Baloch rebels who are currently fighting their fifth insurgency.

After the all these, IMO a new beginning was taken under the BJP led govt. with talks between Vajpayee and Nawaz who won on a plank of having good relations with India. After the bus to lahore it was unnecessary to do the Kargil War. Pakistan had already had given heavy losses to India in the Sikh and Kashmir insurgency and this was an unnecessary provocation when the civilian govt. was giving peace overtures.

Even after that when Musharraf came to power, BJP-led govt. went ahead with the peace process. Even after the parliament attack and various terrorists attack that kept occurring in the Congress led govt. as well the composite dialogue kept moving ahead.

However, the brutal nature of Mumbai attacks and its international implications was no longer possible to tide public sentiment. This is the roadblock at present. And GoI has repeatedly stated that as soon as the Mumbai attackers are convited, we are ready to move ahead to discuss all aspects including Kashmir.

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## karan.1970

hasnain0099 said:


> it is not within the boarder of india........it is a disputed region........I dont know how do you guys come up with such a stupid logics like "kuwait is a small country", "They need to give their women freedom".......*I honestly think that we can have 1 billion+ stand out comedians........*



Are we over generalizing here. Like saying 170 million terrorists?? c'mon man, stay with the topic. LOC is an internationally recognized line and the territories defined by it are managed by Pakistan and India respectively. Hence the differentiation between Israel attack on the aid ship and India's response to the riots in Kashmir.


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## rohitprnc

Kashmir Independence
Before talking about Independence let us talk about Humanity. Humanity is above religion. Humanity has existed for 70,000 years. Much before religion/ fanatics was invented. So the final solution to the Kashmir problem should be based on Humanity. 
If this is agreeable now lets look at Kashmir. 

Kashmiries are demanding breaking away from India only because it is a muslim majority and they have been brainwashed not to be ruled by anybody other than a muslim by religious fanatics so that they can convert maximum region in the world into the Muslim world.

Various agencies are working overtly and covertly towards this and are instigating the people and creating problems which cascade. There is a lot of ill will created and misinformation spread. A lot of Kashmiris are also being misled. 

India has given the Kashmiries the best of the treatments not only with money but also with love. The Indian government has spent so much money- more than proportionately on Kashmir at the cost of even depriving other Indian states and regions which suffer from hunger and poverty. But we cannot expect Muslim Kashmiries to appreciate this. They are only going by their religious fundamentalism. They cannot consider Indians as their family members. 

Indirectly also Kashmir is a huge cost with all the military spending and spending to control terrorisms from all the Islamic fundamentalists. The economy has also paid a huge price for this.

Kashmiris in turn are the most richest people in India today. They do not pay any bills like electricity, etc. They do not pay the taxes and the Government continues to pamper them. In a Kashmiries words  Jo Sarkari Hai, wo Hamari Hai.

Kashmiri Muslims in turn have chased away the Hindu Pandits and want to break away from India.
They are behaving like the bad boy of the family who despite getting the best are still wanting to break the family.

As far as the problem of administration, it is proven that the muslim people cannot live with democracy and freedom. They can only be governed by military rule and dictatorship. Indian attempt to win over Muslim Kashmiris with love and democracy and autonomy etc is futile. The best method to administer Kashmir is through Military rule. (Until you give them a bamboo in their backside they do not listen).

As far as their claim of Independence goes, wherein they claim that India occupied Kashmir and should vacate it, the truth is that Muslims have forcibly with violence occupied a large part of India. Muslims should first introspect and should vacate all the Hindu land including Pakistan and Kashmir. In addition they should also take back all the traitors, back stabbing, fanatic Muslims from India. We are willing to live with Muslims who believe that Humanity comes first and religion is personal and those who do not want to create trouble for the sake of their fundamental religious objectives.

If we listen to Muslims of Kashmir, then there will be other Muslims in other parts of India who will produce 10  20 children per woman and claim Muslim majority and then ask for Independence. This anyway is going to happen as the Muslim population in India is likely to exceed the Hindu Population by 2050. Then India will be a Muslim state with first rights to Muslims and Hindus being the slaves like in the past and we all be under a Muslim dictator. 

The recent problems created by separatists in Kashmir with the help of Pakistanis are because now they are getting desperate as now they are unable to spread terrorism. Kashmiris were hoping that because of terror India will be brought down to its Knees. But now that that route is blocked they have nothing else to do but to create these kinds of problems. Forget their claim that so many Kashmiries have been killed etc. but count how many innocent Indians and soldiers have been killed in terrorist acts because of them. I did not hear Kashmiris taking out procession condemning terrorism in India. (Ehsan faramosh). They could have told their masters in Pakistan to stop that. These cold hearted Muslim Kashmiries. 

I think India has had enough of these stupid problems. India should throw out the Muslims from Kashmir as it does not belong to them and also throw out the Muslims who want to create problem in India. 

(I am not against any religion; I believe everybody has a right to practice any religion which they want. However using religion for political reasons is wrong. I think a time has come to call Spade a Spade.)


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## rohitprnc

Kashmir Independence
Before talking about Independence let us talk about Humanity. Humanity is above religion. Humanity has existed for 70,000 years. Much before religion/ fanatics was invented. So the final solution to the Kashmir problem should be based on Humanity. 
If this is agreeable now lets look at Kashmir. 

Kashmiries are demanding breaking away from India only because it is a muslim majority and they have been brainwashed not to be ruled by anybody other than a muslim by religious fanatics so that they can convert maximum region in the world into the Muslim world.

Various agencies are working overtly and covertly towards this and are instigating the people and creating problems which cascade. There is a lot of ill will created and misinformation spread. A lot of Kashmiris are also being misled. 

India has given the Kashmiries the best of the treatments not only with money but also with love. The Indian government has spent so much money- more than proportionately on Kashmir at the cost of even depriving other Indian states and regions which suffer from hunger and poverty. But we cannot expect Muslim Kashmiries to appreciate this. They are only going by their religious fundamentalism. They cannot consider Indians as their family members. 

Indirectly also Kashmir is a huge cost with all the military spending and spending to control terrorisms from all the Islamic fundamentalists. The economy has also paid a huge price for this.

Kashmiris in turn are the most richest people in India today. They do not pay any bills like electricity, etc. They do not pay the taxes and the Government continues to pamper them. In a Kashmiries words  Jo Sarkari Hai, wo Hamari Hai.

Kashmiri Muslims in turn have chased away the Hindu Pandits and want to break away from India.
They are behaving like the bad boy of the family who despite getting the best are still wanting to break the family.

As far as the problem of administration, it is proven that the muslim people cannot live with democracy and freedom. They can only be governed by military rule and dictatorship. Indian attempt to win over Muslim Kashmiris with love and democracy and autonomy etc is futile. The best method to administer Kashmir is through Military rule. (Until you give them a bamboo in their backside they do not listen).

As far as their claim of Independence goes, wherein they claim that India occupied Kashmir and should vacate it, the truth is that Muslims have forcibly with violence occupied a large part of India. Muslims should first introspect and should vacate all the Hindu land including Pakistan and Kashmir. In addition they should also take back all the traitors, back stabbing, fanatic Muslims from India. We are willing to live with Muslims who believe that Humanity comes first and religion is personal and those who do not want to create trouble for the sake of their fundamental religious objectives.

If we listen to Muslims of Kashmir, then there will be other Muslims in other parts of India who will produce 10  20 children per woman and claim Muslim majority and then ask for Independence. This anyway is going to happen as the Muslim population in India is likely to exceed the Hindu Population by 2050. Then India will be a Muslim state with first rights to Muslims and Hindus being the slaves like in the past and we all be under a Muslim dictator. 

The recent problems created by separatists in Kashmir with the help of Pakistanis are because now they are getting desperate as now they are unable to spread terrorism. Kashmiris were hoping that because of terror India will be brought down to its Knees. But now that that route is blocked they have nothing else to do but to create these kinds of problems. Forget their claim that so many Kashmiries have been killed etc. but count how many innocent Indians and soldiers have been killed in terrorist acts because of them. I did not hear Kashmiris taking out procession condemning terrorism in India. (Ehsan faramosh). They could have told their masters in Pakistan to stop that. These cold hearted Muslim Kashmiries. 

I think India has had enough of these stupid problems. India should throw out the Muslims from Kashmir as it does not belong to them and also throw out the Muslims who want to create problem in India. 

(I am not against any religion; I believe everybody has a right to practice any religion which they want. However using religion for political reasons is wrong. I think a time has come to call Spade a Spade.)


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## EjazR

*Aamir keeps his promise - Hindustan Times*

At a time when most producers would monitor collections as their movies entered the fifth day, Aamir Khan chose a different path. As Peepli [Live] goes on to consolidate its position at the box-office despite a non-star cast, the actor-filmmaker has taken off to Leh to visit the Druk Pema
School, which suffered damage during the floods earlier this month. Also known as the Druk White Lotus School, it&#8217;s the same place where Khan shot for 3 Idiots.

*Back to school*
On Tuesday morning, Khan headed to Leh, where he spent the day acclimatising to the weather. In the early hours of Wednesday morning, he went to the school to spend the day with the children. The actor was unavailable for comment, but his friend confirmed the news saying that he was sad to hear that the children were traumatised by the flood.

Aamir KhanIt is learnt that Khan spoke to Mr Prasad, the principal of Druk Pema School and while he was relieved to learn that the school didn&#8217;t suffer much damage, he was pained to hear that the children were in shock. &#8220;The children were stuck in school when the floods occurred, and later on, they had to wade through the waters to reach a dry place some distance away. That entire experience has affected them,&#8221; informs the friend.

Reportedly, the actor-filmmaker sent a cheque to the school&#8217;s principal as his contribution to repair the damage. Elaborating on Khan&#8217;s visit to the school, the friend says that his priority is to help the children return to normal. &#8220;The children&#8217;s creativity has also been affected. Since they&#8217;re friendly with Aamir, he will be spending the day with them to help them come out of the trauma by talking and playing games with them. He feels it&#8217;s important for them to overcome it and resume their activity again,&#8221; said the friend. After spending the day with the children of Druk Pema School, Khan will return to Mumbai on Thursday.


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## amit30

WTF who the hell Gilani is???

No budy listen terrorists.... 

so no need to be happy cause no one take J&K from India

Jai hind


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## HitNRun

Gilani is on right track ..i ask indians who are they to say kashmir is part of india .... Gilani have same right as you if you think kashmir is indian part.... 

I think Gilani said it right and its a part of Pakistan and we will get it one day ... keep posting your comments but noone listens to you .... just enjoy this forms and we will take our kashmire back


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## User name

As if Gilani will say India is not a part of Earth and we ll believe him.

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## HitNRun

Kashmire is on UNO table with as disputed land b/w Pakistan and india .... no matter what indian say who cares for you.....

Kashmir is a part of Pakistan and we will get it one day what ever you indians say.... its our land...and its disputed land and IOK


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## amit30

HitNRun said:


> Kashmire is on UNO table with as disputed land b/w Pakistan and india .... no matter what indian say who cares for you.....
> 
> Kashmir is a part of Pakistan and we will get it one day what ever you indians say.... its our land...and its disputed land and IOK



gaza is also dispute land but Isreal own GAZA 

Jiske pas power hai Kashmir uska ... so dnt watch dreams cause this dream of pakistan never gonna true


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## Srinivas

ejaz007 said:


> The reality on the ground is different. The first generation during 50's only waited for India and Pakistan to decide. The second generation during 70's protested peacefully for their right to self determination. The third generation during 90's took up arms and started fighting. So with every change of generation the tactics have also changed and become bloodier than before.
> 
> With every coming of new generation the hatred has only increased instead of decreasing let alone remaining the same.



NO you are wrong buddy with every generation change the mind set and terror tactics of anti india elements have changed and each and every time they are dealt with death blow. This time is no different.
The reason for the recent turmoil is India is going with development plan in J&K and this made some pakistani elements desperate 
To tell you from this time onwards the mind set of these anti elements has to change and accept the ground reality. India is not a the same India in the past.
India do not have territorial ambitions if it had then it would have been even humiliating defeat for pakistan in 1971.


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## Srinivas

PakSher said:


> Good Job Gilani. Kashmir is part of greater Pakistan soon.



Buddy try to get a grip on your whole country first like in the areas o SWAT,FATA and balochistan and talk about the other countries internal matters.

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## HitNRun

amit30 said:


> gaza is also dispute land but Isreal own GAZA
> 
> Jiske pas power hai Kashmir uska ... so dnt watch dreams cause this dream of pakistan never gonna true



lol jiske pass power hai kashmire uska???? is it your statement or from your gov ?? if thats the casse then we can take kashmir in one day... till then face the Kashmiries only.... they are enough for your army and if we got involved then indians cant stand it so be afraid of that day when Pakistan Army and nation start taking kashmire back as we did in 1948 and half of kashmir is azad now


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## Srinivas

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> When people start resorting to arguments like 'so what, do what you can, we are too strong, blah, blah, blah', you know that they have utterly and completely lost the moral, ethical and legal arguments supporting their case.
> 
> Those kinds of arguments are pretty much all you see from Indians nowadays.


 can you elaborate on this one


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## HitNRun

amit30 said:


> ohh man joke of the century
> 
> you try that four times and got kick on your @$$ but still thinking about this



BTW your post is reported 

go and learn history ... we took half of Kashmir in 1949 and india went to UNO crying to stop war... i hope your got your answer up.... you know where i mean


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## ice_man

indianpatriot said:


> 1.the day Kashmir becomes independent...it will act like a gift state by Pakistani govt for Taliban and Al qaeeda which will then shift from swat to Indian Kashmir an save Pakistan from falling apart and will also pinch India in Himanchal Pradesh and Jammu.....
> 
> 2.Kashmir will become like erstwhile Afganistan with strict Sharia Laws and human right violations more than claimed by Pakistan by India on Kashmiris.
> 
> 3.and all this regardless Kashmir becomes part of Pakistan or remains independent in latter case a furious and frustrated Pakistan will send violence through borders to teach Kashmiris a lesson for not joining Pakistan quite similar to what happened in East Bengal.
> 
> 4.Then Kashmir will come back crying to India again for help....




let's try what you say!!!! and see if you are right 


as for Kashmir it has the right to self determination! period (it doesn't meant it should be part of india or pakistan it can be independent)


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## GreenStar

This comment by Mr Gilani shows that the average Kashmiri person, is not very supportive of the Indian goverement. Why because he has huge support in Kashmir...as a result he represents a huge number of people...and is clearly commenting on the grievances of the Kashmiri people have with the Indian goverement.

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## Bhairava

HitNRun said:


> Gilani is one who have people power in Kashmir and his voice is heard everywhere in the world so it shows the changing ground realities now.....



No sir,

Let me explain to u....

Kashmir is one of the parts of Jammu and Kashmir (Jammu and Ladakh being the others)

And Srinagar and Sopore (where majority of protests occur) are just a part of Kashmir Valley.

And Even among the two Geelani's voice is heard only in Sopore..not even in Srinagar where the moderate Mirwaiz is the main man..

Still u believe this old man represents all Kashmiris?? 

And his voice heard everywere in the world is exxageration to its highest limit.

Some food for thought:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/50521-geelani-men-attack-yasin-malik.html


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## HitNRun

tamilan007 said:


> No sir,
> 
> Let me explain to u....
> 
> Kashmir is one of the parts of Jammu and Kashmir (Jammu and Ladakh being the others)
> 
> And Srinagar and Sopore (where majority of protests occur) are just a part of Kashmir Valley.
> 
> And Even among the two Geelani's voice is heard only in Sopore..not even in Srinagar where the moderate Mirwaiz is the main man..
> 
> Still u believe this old man represents all Kashmiris??
> 
> 
> Some food for thought:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/50521-geelani-men-attack-yasin-malik.html



well we are talking about Kashmir as a whole and the link you posted is just a propoganda against geelani .... 
well geelani represents the majority in Kashmir ....

YES Geelani represents the Kashmire.... thats the tru picture correct yourself please


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## Bhairava

HitNRun said:


> well we are talking about Kashmir as a whole and the link you posted is just a propoganda against geelani ....
> well geelani represents the majority in Kashmir ....
> 
> YES Geelani represents the Kashmire.... thats the tru picture correct yourself please



Fine I can only say the earth is round...Its for u to believe it or not..I cant prove it by taking u on a space ship and showing indeed its round when seen from space.

I told u the reality.Ur not accepting..Fine no problems for me as it doesnt change even an inch on ground.Bye

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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That is what Indians were saying ten years ago too, and this time around it is those who have benefited from 'developmental activities' -college students, professionals etc. - who are part and parcel of the protests.



And see how the 10 years have changed the complexion of the Kashmir Issue. 4500 people (civilians/Sec forces/Terrorists) killed in 2001 and 377 in 2009. You may think not, but from where I stand, I see 93% of reduction in the problem.

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## karan.1970

HitNRun said:


> Kashmire is on UNO table with as disputed land b/w Pakistan and india .... no matter what indian say who cares for you.....
> 
> Kashmir is a part of Pakistan and we will get it one day what ever you indians say.... its our land...and its disputed land and IOK



When did UNSC last mention Kashmir in any resolution?

Make up your mind. Is it a part of Pakistan or is it disputed?

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## EjazR

Please note tha this is a local published paper so don't dismiss it as "Indian propaganda"

*Check this madness*

An unruly mob attacked the ambulance of Sub-district Hospital Pattan and roughed up doctors including the Block Medical Officer (BMO) near Singhpora Pattan Monday. Poor doctors including the BMO were physically manhandled with slaps and punches and showered with choicest abuses. Their only crime was that they had bothered to attend their duties and make themselves available to ailing people when majority prefers the safety of homes! 

Had these people also stayed home, they would have been spared the insults and humiliation they faced. But they had come to the hospital, so they had to undergo nasty treatment at the hands of a mad mob, likes of which have been let loose on the Kashmir&#8217;s hapless population throughout its length and breadth. Besides the poor BMO, his other colleagues including a female doctor were abused and the ambulance damaged. This happened because the BMO had refused ambulance to a group of maverick youth who wanted to misuse it to escape curfew and restrictions so as to visit SKIMS Soura to enquire about the health of a local boy undergoing treatment there.
So let&#8217;s first decide: wasn&#8217;t the said BMO right in refusing ambulance for the purpose it was being asked for? Ambulances are no doubt public property, but this doesn&#8217;t mean that they should be available at will to any Tom, Dick and Harry for joy-rides or leisure trips. They are meant for medical emergencies and the sweet desire of a group of people to go and visit an ailing colleague undergoing treatment at the state&#8217;s best medical facility is certainly not so big an emergency for which a government ambulance running on government fuel should be made available and risked along with a government driver. What if the ambulance was given to them and while it was still away there was some medical emergency concerning someone&#8217;s life and death? Who would, and how could the non-availability of the ambulance in such a case have been justified?

What happened it sheer hooliganism and certainly not the &#8216;Azadi&#8217; activism. Those involved in the incident must be taken to task. But here again the unfortunate question is who will do so. Ideally the police is meant for dealing with such matters, but partly because of its own follies and partly because of the secessionist politics, police remains discredited and relegated to be seen as an adversarial force which won&#8217;t be trusted with the job. So, if we don&#8217;t trust the police, then we will also have to figure out how to deal with such elements who are having a field day in the &#8216;absolutist anarchy&#8217; that is ruling the roost in Kashmir now. An entire population cannot be left to the mercy of psychotic hooligans who go on victimizing people at will and yet remain remorseless for they as well as their patrons credit them with fighting for &#8216;Azadi&#8217;. It&#8217;s unfortunate that among the people who have taken over the role of commandeering public anger and outrage on roads and streets, are some self-styled &#8220;commanders&#8221; who are turning off a lot of people through their insolence, and bring disrepute to the entire &#8220;movement&#8221;.

What happened at Singhpora is not an isolated incident. Such incidents keep happening day in and day out; it&#8217;s only that some make it to the news while majority go unreported. Last month a group of young people intercepted a car from Tarzoo Sopore headed for a wedding ceremony at Wadipora, Handwara. The three men and four women travelling in the vehicle were ruthlessly herded out, beaten and slammed with ****** invectives for having dared to venture out &#8220;in defiance&#8221; of shutdown. The women faced still worst when a broom of nettle was brushed on their bellies and backs after pulling up their shirts. So harsh was this nasty and torturous humiliation that a woman victim fainted and had to be rushed to hospital for treatment. The doctors who attended on the women confirmed that they had nettle rashes on their backs and bellies.

Now one may ask how can such a shameless behaviour be justified and allowed to go unchecked. People who indulge in or espouse such pornography of violence, damaging ambulances and other public property, beating and humiliating people who have to venture out because of some emergency, as &#8220;revolutionary acts&#8221;, are actually hiding their psychosis behind a political mask they have so conveniently confused with &#8216;Azadi&#8217;!






angry youth is ready to hit a civilian car to enforces strike at Bemina By-pass.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> And see how the 10 years have changed the complexion of the Kashmir Issue. 4500 people (civilians/Sec forces/Terrorists) killed in 2001 and 377 in 2009. You may think not, but from where I stand, I see 93% of reduction in the problem.


Your figures only reflect the nature of the agitation changing, with a lot of support from Pakistan I might add, from violent insurgency based to protests and political activism based.

The desire to end Indian occupation however has not changed, and in fact the demographics of the latest protests indicates that educated and younger Kashmiris are in fact continuing the struggle of their parents generation.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

apart from being Muslim majority; it is also an existential battle I feel. In fact, a lot of the youth tend not to be very religiously radical. They are just doing what they feel is the right thing to do --and that is to stand up against indian occupation which at times like now is more brutal than it ever has been for quite some time

it is natural for Kashmiris to resist; and they are perfectly within their right to do so


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## xyz

just wait till we have UnSC membership.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

what will that do? win you more free hand to kill and maim in Kashmir?


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## SekrutYakhni

God Help Kashmir!!
Freedom fighters, we are with you!!!!


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## BATMAN




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## LaBong

IBNLive.com > CNN IBN Live Streaming

watch Kashmiri pandit students and Kashmiru muslim students debate.


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## civfanatic

> *Srinagar/Islamabad, Aug 18: *
> One person sustained bullet injuries and more than a dozen were injured in police and CRPF action on Wednesday as government clamped curfew in Srinagar and major towns of Kashmir to foil the marches called by Syed Ali Shah Geelani-led Hurriyat Conference against the killings in the Valley. The recent unrest marked by almost continuous shutdown across the valley completed 69 days today.
> Police and CRPF swung into action in Narbal on Srinagar-Varmul highway to disperse a huge protest rally which was demonstrating against killing of a local boy, Muhammad Umar Dar, in firing by CRPF four days ago. One person was shot in Tarigam village of Kulgam district when police and CRPF fired at a protest rally.
> Geelani had asked people of summer capital to march towards HMT here and those from other districts including Varmul and Islamabad to respective district headquarters and houses of those killed in police and CRPF firing.
> 
> CENTER KASHMIR
> A huge protest rally was taken out in Narbal on Srinagar-Varmul highway against the killing of Umar. Carrying placards with his pictures, the protestors including women and youth shouted pro-freedom and anti-India slogans. Though the angry protestors burnt worn-out tyres at many places on the highway, there was no stone pelting incident reported from the area.
> However, eyewitnesses said situation worsened when police and CRPF fired several teargas canisters and resorted to aerial firing to disperse the procession. Among the injured are Umar Habeeb, Adil Ahmad, and Hanief Malik.
> Authorities sealed all roads leading to HMT with heavy presence of police and CRPF on roads lined by barbed wires, barricades and drop gates. Strict curfew was imposed in other areas of the city including the outskirts like Chanapora, Sonwar which connect the summer capital with other districts. In downtown here heavy deployment of forces on roads and inner streets of Mohallas prevented people from venturing out of their homes.
> People attempted to carry out protest rallies in Natipora and Barzulla here which were thwarted by the forces. Reports about protest demonstrations were also received from Nishat and other areas of the city.
> Massive protests erupted at HMT on the city outskirts this afternoon with people attempting to take out a protest rally. However, police and CRPF which was deployed in large numbers in the area swung into action and resorted to aerial firing and fired several teargas canisters to disperse the protestors, reports said.
> The high-handedness of CRPF triggered massive protest demonstrations in Sidiqabad Batamaloo. Eyewitnesses told Greater Kashmir that CRPF troopers barged into residential houses, beaten up inmates and ransacked the household items without provocation. After the incident, scores of youth took to streets and fought pitched battles with troopers, which last for many hours.
> Protests were held in different areas of Budgam district including Kralpora, Wathora, Chadoora and Charar-i-Sharief. However there was no report of any untoward incident.
> Complete shutdown was observed in this district. Police chased away scores of youth who had gathered at Dudarhama to protests against the killing, triggering stone pelting by protesters.
> Chanting pro freedom slogans, people staged protest demonstration at Srinagar-Leh highway near Dursum Haripora. However, police resorted to lathi-charge to disperse them.
> 
> SOUTH KASHMIR
> Curfew remained enforced in almost all towns of south Kashmir even as police and paramilitary forces used force to disperse peaceful protests which erupted in many villages. While Islamabad town continued to remain under curfew for the 6th straight day, Tral township was put under curfew for second consecutive day.
> Elsewhere in Pulwama, Kakpora, Kulgam, Bijbehara and Mattan curfew was re-imposed after a day&#8217;s gap. However, massive demonstrations broke out in many villages even as government forces used force to disperse the protesters injuring several of them.
> Following Tuesday&#8217;s firing on a procession in which a dozen people were injured, curfew was strictly enforced in Kokernag and its adjoining areas of Biddar and Hangalgund. However, people from many other villages including Naripura, Watinad, Sagam, Boochu, Zalangam, Hilad, Dehran, Harpora, Badasgam, Mohripura, Naar, Khalihar and Nagam staged massive pro-freedom demonstrations.
> Paramilitary CRPF men and police used force on the peaceful processions at Boochu, Sagam, Zalangam and Hilad. They resorted to aerial firing, baton charge and fired several tear gas canisters. At least eight people sustained injuries in the action by government forces.
> Police and CRPF men, residents alleged, then unleashed a reign of terror in the area by barging into several houses, ransacking the house hold goods, smashing the window panes and beating up the inmates including women and children.
> Meanwhile, the condition of Irfan Ahmad Khan of Naripura Watinad, injured in CRPF firing on Tuesday, continues to be critical in SKIMS.
> Several people were injured in Achabal, when police and CRPF men resorted to baton charge and fired tear gas canisters to disperse a peaceful procession. Reports of protest demonstrations were received from Dooru, Shangus and Verinag.
> People of Islamabad town alleged that police and CRPF men barred them from offering prayers in many Masjids. They accused forces of barging into their houses and damaging household items. In the evening when the restrictions were eased youth took to streets at various places including Khanbal, Naibasti, Laizbal, Gulshanabad and old town areas of Lal Chowk, Reeshi Bazar, Malkahnag, Cheeni Chowk and staged protests.
> They engaged police and CRPF in pitched battles who retaliated by lobbing tear gas canisters and firing several rounds in air. Acting upon the call of Hurriyat (G), people of the town late in the evening marched towards Laizbal to pay tributes to slain youth, Ishad Ahmad Latoo, killed in CRPF firing five days back.
> Curfew was strictly clamped in Mattan and Bijbehara towns also.
> In Tarigam village of Kulgam, people offered Zuhar prayers on the roads. However, eyewitnesses said as the payers were concluded huge contingent of police and CRPF arrived on the scene and resorted to firing, tear gas shelling and baton charge.
> One person identified as Basheer Ahmad Rather son of Ghulam Rasool Rather, 33, received bullet injury. He was admitted in district hospital Kulgam. Several youth some of whom were identified as Bashir Ahmad Bhat, Irshad Ahmad Sheikh, were detained by the police.
> &#8220;The CRPF men went berserk and broke the window panes of several houses in a nearby Buchroo village. The window panes of a masjid were also broken by the CRPF men,&#8221; eyewitnesses said.
> Curfew was strictly enforced in Kulgam and Qaimoh towns with reports of protest demonstrations from Khudwani, Redwani, Frisal, Ashmuji and Yaripora. People offered prayers on roads in these areas. In Tral township, where about a dozen people were injured in CRPF firing on Monday evening, curfew was strictly enforced with reports of pro-freedom demonstrations pouring in from the adjoining villages.
> Curfew was clamped in Pulwama and Kakpora towns also. While in Pampore, Awantipora and Shopian only restrictions were imposed and people took out pro-freedom processions and prayed on the roads.
> 
> NORTH KASHMIR
> Strict curfew was clamped in Varmul town and adjoining areas to thwart the march program. Authorities late Tuesday night made announcements on loudspeakers about today&#8217;s curfew. Large contingent of police and CRPF forced people to stay indoors.
> Late in the evening, minor clashes were reported between the youth and police near Azadgung bridge in Varmul.
> Strict restrictions were imposed in Sopur, Kupwara and other areas of north Kashmir. Large contingent of forces were seen deployed on roads to prevent people from coming out of their homes.
> Residents of Trehgam alleged that paramilitary CRPF troopers and police &#8220;unleashed reign of terror&#8221; in the area.
> They alleged that troopers were not allowing them to pray at Jamia Masjid.



http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/2010/Aug/19/namazis-fired-at-in-kulgam-1-hurt-50.asp


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## Agnostic_Indian

Protesters have to do it with out violance..they have to respect the majority kashmiris who live peacefuly and happily and in full support of indian and jammu kashmir govt. 
it is govt's duty to ensure the safety of public and private property and lives of general public. 
when mob throws stones and burn and destroy everything NO MATTER WHETHER IT'S KASHMIR,TIBET,BALOOCH, WHERE EVER..RESPONSE IS THE SAME.


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## Agnostic_Indian

mehru said:


> Both countries are not in favour of independent Kashmir. Both don't want to lose land area. Solution in my opinion is neither plebiscite nor independence from both countries. The only solution is to accept LOC as international boundary. That's the only way to bring peace in region.


Are you pakistani ?


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## GUNNER

*Deadly Protests in Kashmir Test Indias Inclusive Ideals*

*By LYDIA POLGREEN*

SRINAGAR, Kashmir  It is hard these days to find a far-flung corner of the worlds largest democracy that is not caught up in some fractious struggle. On Indias northeastern fringes, ethnic minorities agitate for independence. In its forested heartland, a Maoist uprising seeks to overthrow the government. Caste, religion, gender and poverty  these are all fault lines that tear at Indias fabric. 

Yet if India is the land of a million mutinies, in V. S. Naipauls famous phrase, it is also the land of a million accommodations  creative, if often messy, solutions to seemingly intractable problems. 

Speaking to the multitudes gathered at New Delhis Red Fort on Sunday to commemorate Indias Independence Day, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh declared, Indias democracy has the generosity and the flexibility to be able to address the concerns of any area or any group of the country. 

Throughout its history India has managed to accommodate an extraordinary degree of diversity within its much disputed but nevertheless sacrosanct borders. *Many ethnic, linguistic and religious groups have tried to prove, by word and deed, that they are not Indian, yet somehow India has managed to envelop them in its capacious embrace. 

But as the past two months have shown, Kashmir is the one blood-soaked exception.* Nearly 60 civilians have died in angry protests against Indias military presence there, and the cry for self-rule seems to grow stronger with each new body interred in this citys growing Martyrs Graveyard. India has tried brute military force, Indian-style democracy and pork-barrel spending. Nothing has worked. 

Why has Indias charm, so effective elsewhere, failed it here? 

*It is Indian political boilerplate to say that Kashmir is an integral part of India.* In his Independence Day speech, Mr. Singh uttered this mantra in practically the same breath as he called for dialogue to resolve the crisis in Kashmir. *The trouble, analysts and historians say, is that Indias claim on Kashmir is hardly ironclad. 

This is a genuinely international dispute,* said Ramachandra Guha, a historian whose book, India After Gandhi, details the messy process by which Kashmir became part of India after partition in 1947. *India has a case for its position, but it is not foolproof. *

At independence Kashmir was one of hundreds of princely states that had to be won over by either India or Pakistan. A Hindu maharajah ruled Kashmir, but its people were predominantly Muslim. The maharajah, a polo-loving playboy named Hari Singh, wanted independence, but faced with an invasion by tribal Pathans from Pakistan he agreed to join India in exchange for military help. 

But Pakistan claimed the region, too, and India eventually approached the United Nations, which led to a Security Council resolution that a plebiscite be held to determine whether Kashmiris want to join India or Pakistan. At Pakistans insistence, independence was not included as an option. That plebiscite never took place, and now an unsettled, quasi border called the Line of Control divides Kashmir. 

Indias first prime minister, Jawarhalal Nehru, was of Kashmiri origin and badly wanted Kashmir to remain with India, yet, as he wrote to the maharajah, However much we may want this, it cannot be done ultimately except through the good will of the mass of the population. 

In the decades after independence, Kashmiris might not have been particularly happy with Indian rule, but violent revolt against it seemed unthinkable. 

It was not until the 1970s and 80s, when Indias democracy was most deeply imperiled, that a series of stolen elections and broken promises planted the seed of rebellion. Pakistan, eager to wrest the region from India by force, helped start an insurgency in 1989. As soon as the struggle for independence, as genuine and native as it might have been, was tainted by Pakistani involvement, Kashmir was cast in a much darker light. 

During the insurgency 60,000 people died. Kashmiri Hindus, who had once lived comfortably beside Muslim neighbors, fled in droves. Political Islam crept in. Relations between India and Pakistan cratered, and the blowback hit Kashmir. In 1999 there was the Kargil War, in 2001 the attack on Parliament by Pakistani militants, and finally the terrible attacks on Mumbai in 2008. 

Today the Kashmir insurgency has been all but vanquished. A recent survey conducted by a researcher at Chatham House, a research institute in London, found that no more than 7 percent of people in the most anti-India areas wanted Kashmir to join Pakistan. The question India faces now, analysts say, is how to convince Kashmiris that even if independence were an option, being a part of India is a better choice. Kashmir would be a tiny, vulnerable nation at the crossroads of Asias three major nuclear powers. It would almost certainly be dominated by Pakistan and China. 

Today, the goal is freedom, independence, said Mehbooba Mufti, a leader of Kashmirs main opposition political party. We mainstream politicians have to find a way to reconcile the aspirations of the people while balancing the national interest. 

*Kashmiris have a habit of correcting visitors who refer to them as Indians  they are, they insist, Kashmiris. But India also has fallen into the habit of not treating Kashmiris like Indians*. Life in Kashmir is full of indignities and inconveniences imposed in the name of security. Endless curfews shutter people indoors. Text messaging, beloved by teenagers and mob organizers alike, is often shut down. 

The security forces are shielded from scrutiny by special laws, allowing them to use deadly force with little regard for the consequences. While any government has the responsibility to maintain law and order, nearly 60 deaths of unarmed civilians strike most here as excessive force. 

Malik Sajad, a cartoonist for Greater Kashmir, an English-language daily newspaper published in Srinagar, said that if India wanted Kashmiris to think of themselves as Indians they needed to start treating them like citizens, not subjects. 

The presence of India in Kashmir is the troopers and army and nothing else, he said in an interview in his studio here, where he has been cooped up for weeks during the curfew. What is India doing to prove that our future lies with them? They are just bringing more troops to crush us. 

In recent comments on Kashmir, Mr. Singh and other Indian officials have avoided referring to the protesters as agents of Pakistan. 

Acknowledging that the people of Kashmir have legitimate grievances and genuine aspirations is a welcome change, said Amitabh Mattoo, a professor of Strategic Studies at Jawarhalal Nehru University and a Kashmiri Hindu. But that is not enough. 

If you want to hold on to Kashmir, it will require a real perestroika and glasnost put together, he said.


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## RobbieS

*At Pakistan&#8217;s insistence, independence was not included as an option.*

You forgot to bold out this part. I am doing it for you.


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## Bhairava

This is just a vague article. - Cherry picking both sides can justify their position.

But I would like the attention be kept on 2 other parts:



> A recent survey conducted by a researcher at Chatham House, a research institute in London, found that no more than 7 percent of people in the most anti-India areas wanted Kashmir to join Pakistan



So this essentially becomes a two way dispute between Kashmiris and Indians and it needs to be solved diplomatically.



> The maharajah, a polo-loving playboy named Hari Singh, wanted independence, but faced with an invasion by tribal Pathans from Pakistan he agreed to join India in exchange for military help.



So the Kashmiris had wat they wanted in the beginning and Pakistan was the root cause of all troubles.


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## r4rehan

if they (indian) are big democracy so why they are not giving them(kashmiris) right to chose there way where ever they(kashmiri) want to go...... what a **** ???


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## Bhairava

r4rehan said:


> if they (indian) are big democracy so why they are not giving them(kashmiris) right to chose there way where ever they(kashmiri) want to go...... what a **** ???



That is because there is something called territorial integrity and accountability to the thousands of soldiers whose blood has been spilled for the purpose.

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## iioal malik

Kashmir is only for people of kashmir totally agree with Gilani... In these so call 63 years india is still trying to bully them you cannot silence people by guns it's totally a fail method.. inidan must realize this soon so later they don't have to pay something big in return


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## deckingraj

iioal malik said:


> Kashmir is only for people of kashmir totally agree with Gilani... In these so call 63 years india is still trying to bully them you cannot silence people by guns it's totally a fail method.. inidan must realize this soon so later they don't have to pay something big in return



Thanks for the advice...We will ensure that we don't have to pay anything in return...Kashmir issue will be solved politically and things will improve sooner or later for good...


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## Masterchief

this is not surprising after it has come from a man like gilani, the man has always hurled abuses on India, and has even supported the burning and stomping of our flag, he is a brain washer

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## r4rehan

tamilan007 said:


> That is because there is something called territorial integrity and accountability to the thousands of soldiers whose blood has been spilled for the purpose.



i think if u call ur self big democrsy so do something for democrsy neither for human been nor for arrogance just for democrsy just start election for peace there option should be (1) Independence (2) wana go with Pakistan (3) wana be with india 
they will tell u wht they want ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, !!


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## ek_indian

Deleted....my bad. I totally got confused.


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## mjnaushad

ek_indian said:


> Well....whatever the technicalities are. This is certainly not the right time for jumping up & down.
> 
> When there is a huge humanitarian problem in Pakistan and India has just offered 5 mn $, Pakistan could and should have refrained from such talks. This is what is called tunnel vision.
> 
> P.S. --> Please do not take my comments as India is showing arrogance over money offered to Pakistan. This is surely not the case. My point is, this is not the right time for these kind of diplomatic rants.
> 
> My prayers and sympathies are with the victims.


After showing arrogance You smartly put a line Please dont not take my comment as blah blah blah.........


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## iioal malik

deckingraj said:


> Thanks for the advice...We will ensure that we don't have to pay anything in return...Kashmir issue will be solved politically and things will improve sooner or later for good...



Np all we ask for referendum in kashmir nothing more ....


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## mjnaushad

abcdefgh said:


> So do we say Baluchistan should be independent - whats the point?
> 
> You come to Kashmir, we come to Baluchistan and later at Sindh - who gives..


Those are not disputed territories....


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## sensenreason

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That is what Indians were saying ten years ago too, and this time around it is those who have benefited from 'developmental activities' -college students, professionals etc. - who are part and parcel of the protests.



Ive never understoof why Kashmir should be a part of Pakistan or Independent.Protestors should leave the land and get compensated by Pakistan who can gift them land in their own backyard.

Problem solved.

Another solution. Give J&K or areas of Kashmir Valley independence. Make the rest of the area as part of India....


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## Masterchief

ek_indian said:


> Well....whatever the technicalities are. This is certainly not the right time for jumping up & down.
> 
> When there is a huge humanitarian problem in Pakistan and India has just offered 5 mn $, Pakistan could and should have refrained from such talks. This is what is called tunnel vision.
> 
> P.S. --> Please do not take my comments as India is showing arrogance over money offered to Pakistan. This is surely not the case. My point is, this is not the right time for these kind of diplomatic rants.
> 
> My prayers and sympathies are with the victims.



read the article carefully, we are talking about the speech of sayid gilani, not the pakistani minister


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## mjnaushad

abcdefgh said:


> Pakistan is worried about Kashimiri people but not thier own Loll
> 
> "Minorities denied flood relief in Pakistan"
> 
> <i>Earlier this week, members of Pakistan's Ahmadiyya community, who were caught up in the raging floods around the Central Punjab town of Muzaffargarh, were not rescued from their homes because rescuers felt that Muslims must be given priority. Ahmadiyyas are ostracized by Pakistan's mainstream nuslims community who consider them to be non-believers. In 1973 this community was officially declared a minority. Since then the discrimination against them has been severe.</i>
> 
> 
> 
> This is real shame!


May we know the link.......


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## mjnaushad

ek_indian said:


> This was not the case. It is irrelevant whether India offered money or not andhow much. The point being, there is an urgent issue which needs immediate atteention.
> 
> Pakistan can very well work on K-issue after this relief-work if it chooses so. My feeling is, Pakistan is wasting its energy on issues which can wait.


BTW we are talking about this man....







But anyway i knew such comment was going to come sooner or later from indian members showing how angle they are and how evil we are.......


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## ek_indian

My bad. I totally mistook it. I thought it is Pakistani's PM statement. But I was wrong. 

Oh....here is our own Gilani sahab. Well, he is known for his hardline stance. So being frank, no one cares for what he speaks.

Note: I would delete my comments as they are not in this context.


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## mjnaushad

abcdefgh said:


> The Baluch population is SAYING it IS, and so is number of uprising within!


There is this thing an organization in this world called UN.....I sure hope you have heared about it.......

Anyway you continous Offtopics will get reported.....


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## Masterchief

are bhai gilani sahab ki to purani aadat hai, jis thali mein khatein hai usime ched karte hain

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## kattu-mian

*Kashmiri students divided on 'azadi*

*But 26-year-old Ashaq Hussain Dar, a student of Kashmir University, believes the whole idea of 'freedom' is warped.

'What freedom are they talking about? There was only one freedom struggle and that was against the British, which we won, everything else is a farce. Out of 100 common Kashmiris, 80 want to remain with India,' he said.

He said many of the protesters have been taught what to do and what to say in front of the media and don't have a mind of their own. They are the messengers of the separatists, he added*


Kashmiri students divided on 'azadi'


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## mjnaushad

abcdefgh said:


> s1.zetaboards.com/EDL_The_Forum/topic/3711324/1/


HAHAHAHA......You must be kidding me.....What a reliable source.....Thanks...

---------- Post added at 08:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:05 PM ----------




abcdefgh said:


> Gilani is a well known Pakistani agent...


Yup....He is on our payroll  I wonder whats taking so long to find his birthplace.....Like TOI always do...


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## Masterchief

mjnaushad said:


> HAHAHAHA......You must be kidding me.....What a reliable source.....Thanks...
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:05 PM ----------
> 
> 
> Yup....He is on our payroll  I wonder whats taking so long to find his birthplace.....Like TOI always do...



being an agent doesnt mean that he is a pakistani, anyways i dont believe he is an agent, he is just like any other politician who influences people for his own benefit, everybody knows what a mayhem that guy creates and what an idiot he is.


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## mjnaushad

abcdefgh said:


> There are many non UN terretorial disputes too - Morroco vs Spain over Ceuta - India vs Maldives over Minicoy Island and many more such cases without seeing the UNO light!


Do you notice one thing.....Its dispute between two countries.....


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## IBRIS

Nothing new move along my Indian Brothers. Gilani is Gilani, because we let him be, what he is today. Enjoying the fruits of very patient lazy congress leadership. Some proof with video showing him instigating youth against the police and paramilitary forces will seal his coffin for good. Nothing will change for no one on this earth when it comes to Kashmir, thats the only promise we Indians will give you here.....pakistanis can cry faul all day with million pages wasting bandwith

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## EjazR

*Village Schools Functioning Normally: Minister*

Srinagar, Aug 19  Minister for Education, Peerzada Mohammad Sayeed today said that 90 per cent schools in all villages across Kashmir were functioning normally adding that affected areas were only in Srinagar city and some main towns of the Valley.
The Minister also appreciated the teachers of Jammu and Ladakh divisions, and rural areas of the Valley for completing the syllabus and imparting education to students. He shared his concern with all right thinking people that education of the students in Srinagar and other towns has suffered. He said exams for all classes will be conducted as per schedule.
Sharing the concern of the parents, Peerzada said that the ongoing unrest in the Valley has compelled the Government to contemplate special classes for timely completion of the syllabus so that they could sit in annual examinations and perform satisfactorily.
The Minister said the education system in Jammu division covering all the districts like Rajouri, Poonch, Doda, Kishtwar, Kathua and at tehsil levels is functioning normally and the students of these areas are fully prepared to compete in any examination or competition, adding that the students of Kashmir Valley are lagging behind which will have detrimental effects in the long run.
The Minister said that history bears testimony to the fact that in no part of the world closure of educational institutions is encouraged. He said educating younger generation holds promise for bright future, progress and prosperity of any nation. No sane person will ever think of depriving his own children from the fundamental right to education, he said adding that teachers and parents must coordinate to ensure that education of their wards do not suffer under any circumstances

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## SBD-3

amit30 said:


> WTF *who the hell Gilani is*???


A well known Kashmiri leader....dont be so ignorant 


> No budy listen terrorists....


 If India is no body then yes....No body listens after state terrorism in Kashmir



> so no need to be happy cause no one take J&K from India
> 
> Jai hind


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## Bhairava

IBRIS said:


> Nothing new move along my Indian Brothers. Gilani is Gilani, because we let him be, what he is today. Enjoying the fruits of very patient lazy congress leadership. *Some proof with video showing him instigating youth against the police and paramilitary forces will seal his coffin for good*. Nothing will change for no one on this earth when it comes to Kashmir, thats the only promise we Indians will give you here.....pakistanis can cry faul all day with million pages wasting bandwith



You think that there is no proof now.?

I think the Indian govt is playing good on this.Why to make a unnecessary martyr of an old man who has one foot in the grave and another on a banana peel.

Let him be what he is for a maximum of another 1 0r 2 years.

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## Bhairava

r4rehan said:


> i think if u call ur self big democrsy so do something for democrsy neither for human been nor for arrogance just for democrsy just start election for peace there option should be (1) Independence (2) wana go with Pakistan (3) wana be with india
> they will tell u wht they want ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, !!



If you have read through the "NON-BINDING" UNSC resolutions there is no option for independence (it was dropped at the behest of Pakistan) and any member here can vouch for that.

So technically the demand for independence of the Kashmiris conflicts with the UNSC resolutions.

And for your Info no more than a few % people in the most ant-indian Valley are willing to join Pakistan.


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## sasuke

People who talk about the UN resolutions regarding Kashmir issue should understand the conditions that have to be established on both sides of LOC in Kashmir. Especially, the condition of Pakistan having to withdrawal of forces from the Kashmir it presently holds. 

Once that is established and since it is a binding fact on Pakistan .... then the honorable members of Pakistan can discuss about UN and its resolutions. 

As for Gilani ... the mere freedom he enjoys shows the democracy in India. And as for the brain washing of a few and lots of wet dream stories about the human right violations by India ...... it is widely accepted fact that poor people and people who are into deep religion stuff are easily influenced. 

Though people say the religion doesn't preach violence.... the people who follow the religion always take part in violence in the name of religion. Sad!


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## civfanatic

Masart Alam bhat is deputy of Hurriyat (G) leader Syed ali shah Geelani and is one of most popular young leaders of Kashmir .


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## ejaz007

*Boy killed as fresh clashes erupt in IHK*

** 20 injured in clashes with police as hundreds defy strict curfew restrictions in several places, stage protests*

SRINAGAR: Twenty people were hurt on Thursday in fresh clashes with police after the death of a nine-year-old boy injured during a weekend protest in Indian-held Kashmir, police said.

The death brought to 59 the number of protesters and bystanders killed in two months of violent protests against Indian rule. Most of the victims were young men or teenagers shot dead by security forces. The boy, who was not part of any protest, had been shot in southern Kulgam district on Saturday and died in a hospital on Thursday, police said. He was injured when a stray bullet hit him after security forces opened fire to quell a demonstration, a police spokesman said.

Thousands of Kulgam residents, shouting We want freedom and blood for blood attended his funeral, which dispersed peacefully. In Srinagar, hundreds defied strict curfew restrictions in several places and staged protests, witnesses said. Baton-wielding riot police fired live ammunition and tear-gas shells injuring 17 protesters and bystanders, a police officer said, asking not to be named. He said three of the injured suffered bullet wounds and were from the same family  a man, his daughter and daughter-in-law. Protesters retaliated by hurling rocks and bricks, injuring three policemen. afp

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## k7x

two things these people should understand and i have two questions too.

*1. They are all living in Most unstable part of the world both in Pakistan part as well as India Part. 
*
I am not talking about politics or social even.. i am talking about actual Geology . 

The Himalayan belt is one of the most dynamic part of the world which is most geologically active. Indian plate is pushing up the aisan plate very second and this pressure is unimaginably high. 

It will be released now and then in the form of earth quakes.. Scientist still belive we have a huge one which is still over due.. 

*
2. the soil and rock are not very hard in nature in various mountains due to extreme stress. this means lot of land slide and years to build any good infrastructure.. 
*

So if they want independence and if they get it, they wont survive even a single strock of mother Nature.. 

Even at times might India and powerful Pakistan are proved to be nothing against Mother Nature. then think about tiny Kashmir.. 


If they get independence what they will get is a satisfaction of ego for certain elements. 

Questions

1. Who will govern Kashmir if it is an independent state.. and how will the people get jobs , infrastructure, money etc etc.. ( Pakistan can help but its resources are limited, after independence i feel Inida wont be much involved, and without any proper infrastructure , what type of economy will Kashmir have)

2. What kind of disaster management will Kashmir have.. 
1. flash floods, landslides, earthquake, and now climate change... 


so the best thing is maintain the status quo and work with the respective govt , to increase the life status


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## Hulk

Dude lot of people get confused with Independence, they do not mean seperate state but freedom of movement and reduced presence of security forces. Currently they think it cannot be given by India hence they want a seperate state. Understand what they want, I am in favor of reducing security forces from Kashmir.


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## MZUBAIR

SRINAGAR: Twenty people were hurt Thursday in fresh clashes with police after the death of a nine-year old boy injured during a weekend protest in Indian Occupied Kashmir, police said.

The death brought to 59 the number of protesters and bystanders killed in two months of violent protests in the mainly Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley, most of them young men or teenagers shot dead by security forces.

The boy, who was not part of any protest, had been shot in southern Kulgam district Saturday and died in hospital Thursday, police said.

"He was injured when a stray bullet hit him after security forces opened fire to quell a demonstration," a police spokesman said.

Thousands of Kulgam residents, shouting, "We want freedom" and "blood for blood" attended his funeral, which dispersed peacefully.

In Srinagar, the Kashmiri summer capital, hundreds defied strict curfew restrictions in several places and staged protests against Indian rule, witnesses said.

Riot police fired live ammunition, tear-gas and wielded batons, injuring 17 protesters and bystanders, a police officer said, asking not to be named.

He said three of the injured suffered bullet wounds and were from the same family -- a man, his daughter and daughter-in-law.

Protesters retaliated by hurling rocks and bricks, injuring three policemen.

Srinagar has been under a rolling curfew after separatists called on residents to hold protests against Indian rule.

Anti-Indian sentiments run deep in the valley, and recent protests that started on June 11 after a teenage student was killed by a police tear-gas shell, are the biggest in recent years.

Kashmir is in the grip of a 20-year-old insurgency against Indian rule that has left more than 47,000 people dead by an official count.


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## Hulk

Kashmiri's have threatened Sikhs to covert to Islam or else get killed. I cannot post URL as I am using Phone but it's on TOI site today. So the people asking for justice are so just, first they killed and raped Hindus and now Sikhs. These are religious bigots.


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## Roby

indianrabbit said:


> Kashmiri's have threatened Sikhs to covert to Islam or else get killed. I cannot post URL as I am using Phone but it's on TOI site today. So the people asking for justice are so just, first they killed and raped Hindus and now Sikhs. These are religious bigots.



*Embrace Islam or leave Valley, Sikhs threatened*

SRINAGAR: Sikhs in the Kashmir Valley have received anonymous letters from Islamic militants asking them to either embrace Islam and join the protests against civilian killings or pack up and leave the Valley. The 60,000-strong Sikh community is the single largest minority group in the Valley. 

An organisation of Kashmiri Sikhs said that several community members have received these letters. "Community members have received unsigned letters at various places," said All Party Sikh Coordination Committee (ASCC) coordinator Jagmohan Singh Raina. He said the community has decided to stay put and fight these "evil designs" at a meeting in Srinagar on Thursday. 

Raina quoted a letter as saying: "When you are enjoying the joys here, why can't you share the grief and sorrow of Kashmiris as well? We know you are afraid of bullets... Hold protests inside gurdwaras or leave Kashmir." He added, "Some letters have asked Sikhs to embrace Islam." 

Raina urged both factions of the Hurriyat, JKLF and P-O-K -based United Jihad Council to take serious note of the threats to maintain amity and brotherhood in the Valley. 

Hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani has reassured the Sikhs saying they shouldn't feel threatened and should ignore the "fake letters". He assured the community that nobody would force them to join the protests. 

Earlier, Geelani has made an emotional appeal against forcing minorities to join the protests and said harming them would be like "inflicting a wound on his (Geelani's) body". 

The state unit of Akali Dal (Badal) president Ajeet Singh Mastana described the threats as acts by anti-social elements. "The threats can't break us and reduce our love for our motherland," he said.


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## Pride

SRINAGAR: Sikhs in the Kashmir Valley have received anonymous letters from Islamic militants asking them to either embrace Islam and join the protests against civilian killings or pack up and leave the Valley. The 60,000-strong Sikh community is the single largest minority group in the Valley. 

An organisation of Kashmiri Sikhs said that several community members have received these letters. "Community members have received unsigned letters at various places," said All Party Sikh Coordination Committee (ASCC) coordinator Jagmohan Singh Raina. He said the community has decided to stay put and fight these "evil designs" at a meeting in Srinagar on Thursday. 

Raina quoted a letter as saying: "When you are enjoying the joys here, why can't you share the grief and sorrow of Kashmiris as well? We know you are afraid of bullets... Hold protests inside gurdwaras or leave Kashmir." He added, "Some letters have asked Sikhs to embrace Islam." 

Raina urged both factions of the Hurriyat, JKLF and ***-based United Jihad Council to take serious note of the threats to maintain amity and brotherhood in the Valley. 

Hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani has reassured the Sikhs saying they shouldn't feel threatened and should ignore the "fake letters". He assured the community that nobody would force them to join the protests. 

Earlier, Geelani has made an emotional appeal against forcing minorities to join the protests and said harming them would be like "inflicting a wound on his (Geelani's) body". 

The state unit of Akali Dal (Badal) president Ajeet Singh Mastana described the threats as acts by anti-social elements. "The threats can't break us and reduce our love for our motherland," he said. 


Embrace Islam or leave Valley, Sikhs threatened - India - The Times of India

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## IBRIS

Sounds something like what happened to Kashmiri Pundits in 1987-88. Punjab is closer than they think, let that be known to whoever indulges in ethnic cleansing. We will not tolerate Kashmiri Sikh's being turned into refugees pushed out of their own land.


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## Gentle Typhoon

If I recall correctly Dal Khalsa joined Kashmiri protestors, Maybe Geelani is right.


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## Pride

IBRIS said:


> Sounds something like what happened to Kashmiri Pundits in 1987-88. Punjab is closer than they think, let that be known to whoever indulges in ethnic cleansing. We will not tolerate Kashmiri Sikh's being turned into refugees pushed out of their own land.



True and still Pakistani denies the fact that there is always a religious angle attached to Kashmir struggle. They always compare Kashmir with Palestine for atrocities against muslims but will never talk about Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs... Selective choice ..huh


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## Pride

Gentle Typhoon said:


> If I recall correctly Dal Khalsa joined Kashmiri protestors, Maybe Geelani is right.



If Dal Khalsa joins Kashmir protest then there would be no surprise as they are Pro-Khalistan groups but the point is how many sikhs in the valley will support such nonsense.


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## Hulk

Such people giving threat to innocents civilians of minority are called freedom fighters my foot.


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## Pride

indianrabbit said:


> Dude lot of people get confused with Independence, they do not mean seperate state but freedom of movement and reduced presence of security forces. Currently they think it cannot be given by India hence they want a seperate state. Understand what they want, I am in favor of reducing security forces from Kashmir.



IR, This is what even my understading with the discussion of Kashmiris. Nobody want Army at their door. Kashmiris need freedom from Security personnels and then this Article 370 which stops development in the state. Once these 2 things will be taken care of there will not be such problem but for the both problems Pakistan needs to stop flow of money and so called "freedom fighters". GoI can't remove army from such place as anytime 48,65,99 can happen.


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## GentlemanObserver

indianrabbit said:


> Such people giving threat to innocents civilians of minority are called freedom fighters my foot.



Whilst these actions cannot be condoned in any shape or form, your statement above is flawed... "One man's freedom fighter, Is another man's terrorist"...

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## IBRIS

Pride said:


> If Dal Khalsa joins Kashmir protest then there would be no surprise as they are Pro-Khalistan groups but the point is how many sikhs in the valley will support such nonsense.



Dal Khalsa ain't joining anything. Some fanatic coward out of frustration decided to leave letters to these Kashmiri Sikh residents. Dal Khalsa would be asking for serious trouble in the valley if they ever openly attempted such lunacy. 

We will see Punjab government playing a bigger role here if things escalated like early 87. After all Akali Dal wants some votes in Punjab in next election. Badal and Captain won't let this opportunity slip by like thin air. If someone wants to get dirty in the valley, impact will directly involve Punjab governments intervention from all fronts. They won't leave a stone unturned, when they start hunting for the real culprits.

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## Areesh

Well they are sikhs and nobody can force them to become muslims. In Islamic law a force conversion isn't accepted.


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## Pride

The paid puppets always sings his master's tunes....

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## Pride

Areesh said:


> Well they are sikhs and nobody can force them to become muslims. In Islamic law a force conversion isn't accepted.



Deleted......


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## Luftwaffe

*I'll requests Moderators to close third thread. *


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## Areesh

Pride said:


> Look who is talking... The whole generation and countries (Iran, Afghanistan, African Countries) are forced for conversion and that has been clearly mentioned by historians. Where were those laws then..



I think it is better if you talk about present. Those countries are muslims and they are proud of it.


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## IBRIS

Luftwaffe said:


> *I'll requests Moderators to close third thread. *



WHY?


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Pride said:


> Look who is talking... The whole generation and countries (Iran, Afghanistan, African Countries) are forced for conversion and that has been clearly mentioned by historians. Where were those laws then..



Inaccurate and not necessary.

*ontopic*
Nothing new,Militants who falsely use the banner of Islam to justify their selfish agenda have been doing it allover the world,
Good that this"ll make the minorities more united & cooperative with the Govt.


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## Luftwaffe

Because you and your buddies are _Clown A.s.s.e.s_. 

Now close that loud laughing mouth I don't entertain clowns.

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## mjnaushad

TOI strikes again


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## RobbieS

Lets not talk about historical conversions. True or not, its in the past now.

Regarding threats to Sikhs in the valley, I hope they stand firm and not pour out like the Pundits. This is an ethnic cleansing that the supporters of Kashmir insurgency tend to overlook.

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## Pride

Bombensturm said:


> *Inaccurate and not necessary.*
> *ontopic*
> Nothing new,Militants who falsely use the banner of Islam to justify their selfish agenda have been doing it allover the world,
> Good that this"ll make the minorities more united & cooperative with the Govt.



Deleted buddy.....

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## Pride

mjnaushad said:


> TOI strikes again



Why only Mr Gilani live in uttering BS?


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## IBRIS

Yea it doesn't serve someones interest to see this sort of news gets leaked. Ego's would be hurt and personal attacks begin. 

If you can't contribute, you should stay out of it to begin with. This is actually what we call *" AAA Bhains Mujhay marr".* Loud mouths are already spewing out venom without even giving a consideration to Sikh community. Same clowns A.s.s.ses would of been rushing like aint's to this thread if it would of been the same case with muslims in India.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

mjnaushad said:


> TOI strikes again



Don't say that, you"ll be low on ammunition in future India-bashing threads 

*ontopic*
Like Robbie clearly pointed out,the real objective is get rid of any Non-Muslim minority assuming that will lead to greater local support for Kashmir's coalesce with Pakistan.However,it only strengthens India's argument on Kashmir


On the whole,this thread clearly reflects the *hypocrisy* of some of the Pakistani members here,who put all great efforts in vilifying Indian forces in Kashmir,but not a single one has condemned this incident so far  and rather suggested to hush it all up by requesting the mods to close this thread

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## shujah

KASHMIR belongs to pakistan...............


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## IndianRobo

Paladin said:


> Whilst these actions cannot be condoned in any shape or form, your statement above is flawed... "One man's freedom fighter, Is another man's terrorist"...



But it should Be Upon land...... Not Upon Religion, How dare can he threaten like that, its there wish to choose there religion, You support kashmiris or Kashmiri Muslims???? Why dont the Other Kashmiris have any Problem while Only Muslims In The Vally have???

The Islamic Militants Have been Brain washing these Innocents to revolt against Indian Forces and Demand Freedom so that, these militants can have a Safe base In the vally and Make another Afghanistan.....


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## Spring Onion

After failing to stop civilian protests in Occupied Kashmir, India and its terrorist minds in IHK have came up with this idea of floating fake letters in the name of Muslims so that India could pitch Sikhs against Muslims in Kashmir and make it a perfect point to kill more Kashmiris.

Shame on India

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## kugga

By Kuldip Nayar 
Friday, 20 Aug, 2010 

*Put your ears to the ground and listen carefully. You may hear a new sound in Kashmir. *

This is a different voice from the usual All Parties Hurriyat Conference call for an immediate solution or from the rhetoric of the People&#8217;s Democratic Party (PDP) of Mehbooba Mufti. This is the cry of post-insurgency youth, born after 1989 when militancy crept into an otherwise quiet scene. 

This is violent in the sense that the protesters pelt stones, but different because they have not taken arms from Pakistan as the militants had apparently done. Nor have they any &#8216;top contacts&#8217;. 

This angry, amorphous force has no defined leadership. The baton of the movement is in the hands of the new generation. What binds them together is the anger against the establishment in Srinagar and in Delhi. 

It is not correct to say that hard-liner Syed Ali Shah Geelani is their leader. He sees to it that he is not out of step with them. Yet when he tried to convert them into non-violent protesters he failed. The pelting of stones is their way of saying that they do not agree to the various formulas which have been presented for the solution of the Kashmir issue. 

Both Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah have failed to understand the ethos of the movement. The Indian prime minister&#8217;s willingness to talk to all sections or individuals in Kashmir, as he has said, is a shot in the dark. He has no machinery to reach them. His dependence on the same old apparatus and individuals will yield no results. They are not relevant in the present situation. His thinking has to be out-of-the-box. 

In the same manner, Omar Abdullah&#8217;s offer to create 50,000 jobs to engage the youth is too late. He should have done so when he came to power after free elections. The youth movement has no economic agenda. It is a revolt against the entire system. Moreover, the economic package has become a joke because very little is delivered after making tall promises. 

To understand the situation, two things should be kept in mind. One, there is no Pakistani hand. Two, the movement has nothing to do with the militants. The movement is not pre-planned. Had it been so, it would not have taken a dangerous shape during the current tourist season which yields income to Kashmir for one full year. 

It is a spontaneous movement. It started with the killing of teenager Tufail Ahmed Mattoo on June 11. He was a student and not part of the procession which was throwing stones at the Central Reserve Police Force. Mattoo was killed by a tear-gas shell. Everything else followed. 

One incident ignited the other and in no time the entire valley was engulfed by young protesters. No party took part in organising the agitation. They jumped into the arena after the event, not before. The youth is listening to them but keep their own counsel. 

Anger against Omar Abdullah was the focus of their helplessness. The shoe-throwing incident at the flag-hoisting ceremony on India&#8217;s independence day was a form of protest. *The confession of the policeman who threw the shoe was: &#8220;I did it because of my affection for my people who are being killed every day. I was beaten up in custody and won&#8217;t accept anything under duress. They [the police] want me to name PDP or Hurriyat leaders for that.&#8221; *

This speaks volumes for the repressive methods of the police. What is disconcerting is that the shoe was thrown from a seat in the VVIP row, putting a question mark against the sympathy of even high officials and civil society members. 

Mehbooba Mufti&#8217;s PDP is a supporter of the movement. She is a problem, not the solution. Her ambition is power. She wants to step in if and when the Congress party parts company with Omar Abdullah&#8217;s National Conference and picks up PDP to run the disputed territory. Manmohan Singh should know this. 

However, such machinations on the part of politicians have been the bane of Kashmir. By and large, the politicians and their furtive ways are responsible for all that is happening there. Today all political formations &#8212; including the Hurriyat &#8212; are irrelevant because the angry youth do not have faith in them or their methods. 

The vague, undefined leadership that has surfaced is radical and Islamist. It is Naxalism of sorts, with a pronounced religious slant. Yasin Malik, who is in jail, is respected but how far he can influence the movement has yet to be seen because he is against fundamentalism. 

One woman journalist, a Muslim, told me from Srinagar that what was emerging was going to throttle gasping Kashmiriyat, a secular way of life. 

Both India and Pakistan have not calculated the fallout the movement can have in their countries. India is too overwhelmed and is clueless. Pakistan feels happy that &#8216;the enemy&#8217; is in the midst of real trouble. But the movement is something which should force the two to sit together for a sober assessment. 

This only underlines the urgency of the need for a solution in Kashmir. Manmohan Singh has said that he is ready for it. This has also been the view of the Pakistani leadership. 

I know that talks are going on between New Delhi and Srinagar through the back channel. But the main party consists of the Kashmiris. The sooner they are involved the better it would be for peace in the valley. But the Kashmiri youth, however justified in venting their anger, do not realise that none in India and probably Pakistan would agree to a fundamentalist, sovereign Kashmir on their border.

The writer is a senior journalist based in Delhi.


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## IndianRobo

Jana said:


> After failing to stop civilian protests in Occupied Kashmir, India and its terrorist minds in IHK have came up with this idea of floating fake letters in the name of Muslims so that India could pitch Sikhs against Muslims in Kashmir and make it a perfect point to kill more Kashmiris.
> 
> Shame on India



Another Feather in the cap for You When it comes to bad reporting madam, Is it ok with your Professional Ethics to do that???? I wonder

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Jana said:


> After failing to stop civilian protests in Occupied Kashmir, India and its terrorist minds in IHK have came up with this idea of floating fake letters in the name of Muslims so that India could pitch Sikhs against Muslims in Kashmir and make it a perfect point to kill more Kashmiris.
> 
> Shame on India




And i guess the ethnic cleansing of Hindu Pandits had Indian "terrorist minds" written all over it ,in order to pitch Hindus against Muslims?

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## Hutchroy

Jana said:


> After failing to stop civilian protests in Occupied Kashmir, India and its terrorist minds in IHK have came up with this idea of floating fake letters in the name of Muslims so that India could pitch Sikhs against Muslims in Kashmir and make it a perfect point to kill more Kashmiris.
> 
> Shame on India



You are right. This news is of the same validity as the news of Sikhs and Hindus in FATA having to pay Rupees Four Million (don't remember if it was per person or per family) by way of Jaziya.

All fakes just like the Degrees of Pakistani Members of the Assemblies and Parliament and others like the Hospital etc. etc.

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## civfanatic

Its amazing that for past 20 years of violence nobody asked Sikhs to embrace Islam and now when India has been left with no other ploy to malign independence movement very conveniently this BS appears . Last ditch effort by Indian intelligence agencies to paint independence movement as communal.

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## IndianRobo

civfanatic said:


> YouTube - Government agencies Behind Harrasment of Sikhs in Valley "Hurriyat"
> 
> It&#8217;s amazing that for past 20 years of violence nobody asked Sikhs to embrace Islam and now when India has been left with no other ploy to malign independence movement very conveniently this BS appears . Last ditch effort by Indian intelligence agencies to paint independence movement as communal.



Hindu pandits were evacuated then, Now they want sikhs to move out, so that they can have a safe heaven with there own religion, its a religious Movement not a freedom movement dear.... And we dont give room for such Movements....

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## civfanatic

IndianRobo said:


> Hindu pandits were evacuated then, Now they want sikhs to move out, so that they can have a safe heaven with there own religion, its a religious Movement not a freedom movement dear.... And we dont give room for such Movements....



We Don't care whether you give our movement some kind of room or not tht fact is that for past 20 years of strife sikhs have been part of our society and nobody bothered them . Isn't it convienient that this thing has to happen now . Morever syed ali shah geelani is the most respected leader in kashmir and his message is crisp and clear that we kashmiris don't want to force sikhs to convert to islam .
He clearly says it is against Islam . I hope that sikhs in valley don't fall for nefarious designs of Indian Intelligence agencies .


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## IndianRobo

civfanatic said:


> We Don't care whether you give our movement some kind of room or not tht fact is that for past 20 years of strife sikhs have been part of our society and nobody bothered them . Isn't it convienient that this thing has to happen now . Morever syed ali shah geelani is the most respected leader in kashmir and his message is crisp and clear that we kashmiris don't want to force sikhs to convert to islam .
> He clearly says it is against Islam . I hope that sikhs in valley don't fall for nefarious designs of Indian Intelligence agencies .



We Dont care for *YOUR *Movement too, before 20 years Hindu Pandits were a part of Your Society Aswell, It does not need 6th sense to Figure Out why the same has been Happening with the Sikhs Now.... It has been a habit for the Militants there, If No other religion supports there movement Kill them or Evacuate them from the valley... its a Pure religious Movement, not for the sake of freedom, but Another afghanistan in the making for Which Indian Govt will not allow, We cannot risk a billion people below for the sake of Those supporting terrorists...

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## Kashmiri Nationalist

For all those Indians complaining about the 'ethnic cleansing', it has been going on since the Maharaja, but I don't see any Indian members talking about that. I believe that was one of the worst, if not worst cases of oppression in South Asia. Now, the Sikh's and Hindu's were of a higher 'class' at that time, and as you can understand wounds from that era would still have their marks on Kashmir. This in turn causes a level of 'divide' among the Kashmiri communities where some muslims feel hostility towards the Hindu/Sikh community. What I find sad in this case is that, nobody was prosecuted over the oppression of Kashmiri muslims and this was the biggest oppression/genocide in modern South Asian history. The same pattern must not be followed with the Sikh's and Hindu's, those that oppress them *must* be punished accordingly if not it will only lead to a cycle of violence.

The Kashmiri leaders need to work towards unity between the different communities in Kashmir. We, Kashmiris are the victims of religious divide and the youth must not fall into this disgusting buissness. I find that any 'freedom fighter' that oppresses a Hindu or Sikh is nearly as worst as the Indian Army. Another sad thing is, that the religious divide is still happening. The majority Hindu (then Sikh) Indian army is oppressing the muslims and the youth can sometimes place their hate at the wrong place.

Kashmir is for Kashmiris, not Hindus, Sikhs or Muslims.

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## Kashmiri Nationalist

k7x said:


> two things these people should understand and i have two questions too.
> 
> *1. They are all living in Most unstable part of the world both in Pakistan part as well as India Part.
> *
> I am not talking about politics or social even.. i am talking about actual Geology .
> 
> The Himalayan belt is one of the most dynamic part of the world which is most geologically active. Indian plate is pushing up the aisan plate very second and this pressure is unimaginably high.
> 
> It will be released now and then in the form of earth quakes.. Scientist still belive we have a huge one which is still over due..
> 
> *
> 2. the soil and rock are not very hard in nature in various mountains due to extreme stress. this means lot of land slide and years to build any good infrastructure..
> *
> 
> So if they want independence and if they get it, they wont survive even a single strock of mother Nature..
> 
> Even at times might India and powerful Pakistan are proved to be nothing against Mother Nature. then think about tiny Kashmir..
> 
> 
> If they get independence what they will get is a satisfaction of ego for certain elements.
> 
> Questions
> 
> 1. Who will govern Kashmir if it is an independent state.. and how will the people get jobs , infrastructure, money etc etc.. ( Pakistan can help but its resources are limited, after independence i feel Inida wont be much involved, and without any proper infrastructure , what type of economy will Kashmir have)
> 
> 2. What kind of disaster management will Kashmir have..
> 1. flash floods, landslides, earthquake, and now climate change...
> 
> 
> so the best thing is maintain the status quo and work with the respective govt , to increase the life status



My friend, the fight for independence is not for riches, it is for freedom. What you are forgetting is that not all of Kashmir is in the Himalayas. Also, I should point out life in AJK is comfortable, Kashmir has plenty of natural resources, I believe that Industry would provide jobs. Already in Kashmir there are a lot of 'carpenter' jobs. You also forgot the part about the Indian genocide in Kashmir, I wonder what that has to do with life status.

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## civfanatic

IndianRobo said:


> We Dont care for *YOUR *Movement too, before 20 years Hindu Pandits were a part of Your Society Aswell, It does not need 6th sense to Figure Out why the same has been Happening with the Sikhs Now.... It has been a habit for the Militants there, If No other religion supports there movement Kill them or Evacuate them from the valley... its a Pure religious Movement, not for the sake of freedom, but Another afghanistan in the making for Which Indian Govt will not allow, We cannot risk a billion people below for the sake of Those supporting terrorists...



I don't know why you are unable to comprehend the fact that the video represents the determination of pro -freedom kashmiri leadership to assure the sikh community of Kashmir valley that thier right to practice thier faith would be protected at all costs and they won't be harmed in anyway by pro-freedom kashmiris . The only party that can benifit from these threats is GOI which will get another handle to bracket our geniune struggle as barbarric . GoI used kashmiri pandits for same effect in early 1990s and would do same .


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Pride said:


> IR, This is what even my understading with the discussion of Kashmiris. Nobody want Army at their door. Kashmiris need freedom from Security personnels and then this Article 370 which stops development in the state. Once these 2 things will be taken care of there will not be such problem but for the both problems Pakistan needs to stop flow of money and so called "freedom fighters". GoI can't remove army from such place as anytime 48,65,99 can happen.



Last I checked Pakistan didn't have enough money to pay for thousands of stone peltersAlso, you should note that a lot of the monet you talk of comes from the Kashmiri diaspora, and Azad Kashmir, Gilgit.

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## IndianRobo

civfanatic said:


> I don't know why you are unable to comprehend the fact that the video represents the determination of pro -freedom kashmiri leadership to assure the sikh community of Kashmir valley that thier right to practice thier faith would be protected at all costs and they won't be harmed in anyway by pro-freedom kashmiris . The only party that can benifit from these threats is GOI which will get another handle to bracket our geniune struggle as barbarric . GoI used kashmiri pandits for same effect in early 1990s and would do same .



Well If I say that as a false claim How Would You Justify it? Its Just a Reason Born In your Mind for Not accepting what ever Indians say and Instead support Your Own claim with Your Own proofs Who By themselves are Fighting In the name of freedom and Negotiating with Militants Through Back Channel...... Atleast We dont want the Sikh Community there to to be like the Hindu Pandits who were Shown no mercy..... 

Sikhs Living there do not support your movement, hence the Islamic Militants want to kill them or kick them out, come on Dont waste Your time justifying your Reason... 

And you are supporting those whom the world is calling terrorists, LET.... They sre only freedom fighters to You...

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## roach

Azad Kashmir said:


> For all those Indians complaining about the 'ethnic cleansing', it has been going on since the Maharaja, but I don't see any Indian members talking about that. I believe that was one of the worst, if not worst cases of oppression in South Asia. Now, the Sikh's and Hindu's were of a higher 'class' at that time, and as you can understand wounds from that era would still have their marks on Kashmir. This in turn causes a level of 'divide' among the Kashmiri communities where some muslims feel hostility towards the Hindu/Sikh community. What I find sad in this case is that, nobody was prosecuted over the oppression of Kashmiri muslims and this was the biggest oppression/genocide in modern South Asian history. The same pattern must not be followed with the Sikh's and Hindu's, those that oppress them *must* be punished accordingly if not it will only lead to a cycle of violence.
> 
> The Kashmiri leaders need to work towards unity between the different communities in Kashmir. We, Kashmiris are the victims of religious divide and the youth must not fall into this disgusting buissness. I find that any 'freedom fighter' that oppresses a Hindu or Sikh is nearly as worst as the Indian Army. Another sad thing is, that the religious divide is still happening. The majority Hindu (then Sikh) Indian army is oppressing the muslims and the youth can sometimes place their hate at the wrong place.
> 
> Kashmir is for Kashmiris, not Hindus, Sikhs or Muslims.



You poor bleeding heart.

It's a good policy. Terrorize minorities (Hindus, Sikhs) and ethnically cleanse out the valley, and then say "Oh you poor things, why did you leave?? Tsk, tsk. Bad jihadis!!!"

Where were you when the Pandits were being driven out of their homes? The poor among them still live in Ghettoes, as refugees all over India. They are (were) Kashmiris too.

This is the two-nation theory all over again. Muslims Vs the rest.

Dudes. Wake up. Kashmir is not just a symbol of the country's unity, It is also a huge STRATEGIC asset adjoining China, Pakistan and Central Asia.
Kashmir will never be an independent country, at least not for the two next generations.

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## civfanatic

IndianRobo said:


> Well If I say that as a false claim How Would You Justify it? ...



Which false claim and what justification ?



> Its Just a Reason Born In your Mind for Not accepting what ever Indians say and Instead support Your Own claim with Your Own proofs Who By themselves are Fighting In the name of freedom and Negotiating with Militants Through Back Channel...... Atleast We dont want the Sikh Community there to to be like the Hindu Pandits who were Shown no mercy.....


Don't give me this BS that it is something in my mind , if you have any convincing arguements to make we can continue otherwise there is no need to waste the bandwidth 


> Sikhs Living there do not support your movement, hence the Islamic Militants want to kill them or kick them out, come on Dont waste Your time justifying your Reason...
> 
> And you are supporting those whom the world is calling terrorists, LET.... They sre only freedom fighters to You...



Who says sikhs don't support our movement as far as i remember nobody has asked them . Even if they were not supporting our movement that fact would have been so for past 2 decades also . If nobody in kashmir had urge to force sikhs to behave in particular way for past 20 years why such urge now ? The fact is that these threats are pathetic attempt by Indian intelligence agencies to malign freedom movement of kashmir .


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## IndianRobo

civfanatic said:


> *Which false claim and what justification ?*



So You have been agreeing with me for Such a Long time is it?? Your Own claim made out of no where....Justify it please....



civfanatic said:


> Don't give me this BS that it is something in my mind , if you have any convincing arguements to make we can continue otherwise there is no need to waste the bandwidth



Why not, You put forth a convincing argument Instead just Hit what ever Comes Your way with what ever You Think correct to you... Give us The exact proof...




civfanatic said:


> Who says sikhs don't support our movement as far as i remember nobody has asked them . Even if they were not supporting our movement that fact would have been so for past 2 decades also . If nobody in kashmir had urge to force sikhs to behave in particular way for past 20 years why such urge now ? The fact is that these threats are pathetic attempt by Indian intelligence agencies to malign freedom movement of kashmir .



Well The Militants are no fools to Get rid of Hindus and Sikhs at once, they Kicked Hindu Pandits Out of Kashmir for Not Joining there movement, now the Sikhs are In the same condition, as I said, One does not need 6th sense to figure out the Intention behind Islamic Militancy

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Azad Kashmir said:


> *For all those Indians complaining about the 'ethnic cleansing', it has been going on since the Maharaja, but I don't see any Indian members talking about that. *I believe that was one of the worst, if not worst cases of oppression in South Asia. Now, the Sikh's and Hindu's were of a higher 'class' at that time, and as you can understand wounds from that era would still have their marks on Kashmir. This in turn causes a level of 'divide' among the Kashmiri communities where some muslims feel hostility towards the Hindu/Sikh community. What I find sad in this case is that, nobody was prosecuted over the oppression of Kashmiri muslims and this was the biggest oppression/genocide in modern South Asian history. The same pattern must not be followed with the Sikh's and Hindu's, those that oppress them *must* be punished accordingly if not it will only lead to a cycle of violence.
> 
> The Kashmiri leaders need to work towards unity between the different communities in Kashmir. We, Kashmiris are the victims of religious divide and the youth must not fall into this disgusting buissness. I find that any 'freedom fighter' that oppresses a Hindu or Sikh is nearly as worst as the Indian Army. Another sad thing is, that the religious divide is still happening. The majority Hindu (then Sikh) Indian army is oppressing the muslims and the youth can sometimes place their hate at the wrong place.
> 
> Kashmir is for Kashmiris, not Hindus, Sikhs or Muslims.



Good post!

We Indians know that the Maharajah was an autocrat. But don't associate it with the current Kashmir issue as neither Pakistan nor India had anything to do with it as Kashmir was an independent princely state back then.


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## civfanatic

IndianRobo said:


> So You have been agreeing with me for Such a Long time is it?? Your Own claim made out of no where....Justify it please....




Im simply asking you which claim you think is wrong and why


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## IndianRobo

civfanatic said:


> Im simply asking you which claim you think is wrong and why



That GOI is Behind all this, How do u know that???? I mean Do You have any Underworld Connections to get this top secret Info??


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## civfanatic

IndianRobo said:


> That GOI is Behind all this, How do u know that???? I mean Do You have any Underworld Connections to get this top secret Info??



The only party that benifits from these threats is GOI . It gives them a handle to paint our geniune struggle as barbaric where Islamic fundamentalists are out to force convert a reuluctant sikh population .
The timing of these threats corrobrates my assertion . India is currently facing an unprecedented mass movement in kashmir , after failing with all methods they are resorting to employ religous divide in thier favour . In past 20 years nobody bothered the sikh community of kashmir and anybody who bothers them now can't be a friend of kashmiri people .


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## Hulk

Everything that is not favorable is RAW propaganda. One important point is if minorities are not part of protest means, problem is also religiously motivated. So particular religion is just finding excuse to point fingers. I have another question if someone can help, my history is weak. I wanted to know what was religious composition of Bangladesh and has it changed significantly. I mean did percentage of Muslims increased. The reason I ask this I can see a treand as Muslims grow in number they try to Impose Islam to others even using Government. Pakistan has laws and I can see something simlar being tried in Bangaladesh.

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## IndianRobo

civfanatic said:


> The only party that benifits from these threats is GOI . It gives them a handle to paint our geniune struggle as barbaric where Islamic fundamentalists are out to force convert a reuluctant sikh population .
> The timing of these threats corrobrates my assertion . India is currently facing an unprecedented mass movement in kashmir , after failing with all methods they are resorting to employ religous divide in thier favour . In past 20 years nobody bothered the sikh community of kashmir and anybody who bothers them now can't be a friend of kashmiri people .



The party which looses is GOI, We had the support of Sikh Community there as they did not want any partition from India, the Hindu Pandits showed the same attitude, and there fate are the same, Getting Kiked Out of Kashmir, the only one getting Benefited are The Militants there, for which they are kicking Out anyone who does not support them.... Its a Periodic process for them to Nurture Only those who belong there religion and Others are Just Enemies of theirs...

Kashmiris as a whole do not want freedom, only Muslims there are brain washed by these terrorists .. Now If Sikhs are also Kicked away, there will be Pure Islamic Rule and Make another afghanistan out of Kashmir


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

This is all unsubstantiated BS coming from a conflict theatre, meant to rile Indians to an orgy frenzy on internet forums. Who's the real victim here? Migrant Indian Sikhs from Punjab or ethnic Kashmiris?


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## brahmastra

flood the valley with Hindus and Sikhs.


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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

brahmastra said:


> flood the valley with Hindus and Sikhs.



And rush the Dalits to the outhouses just in case there aren't enough there.


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## Peregrine

A dubious distinction in this reports stems out from the fact that it vows to label the oppressed as tyrants,its just a wretched attempt to keep the attention off the recent insurrection against the Indian military occupation of Kashmir. However, Indian military's treatment of Kashmir's is an open secret & indian military's stance is "*Embrace indianism or face death*


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## sunny001

*Should young Kashmiris think beyond religious stereotypes?*


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## EjazR

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> This is all unsubstantiated BS coming from a conflict theatre, meant to rile Indians to an orgy frenzy on internet forums. Who's the real victim here? Migrant Indian Sikhs from Punjab or ethnic Kashmiris?



These are not migrant sikhs but local Sikhs. This is not an isolated incident it has happened before. Ofcours, majority of the Kashmiri muslims are against it and the sepratists have also opposed any harrasment to the minorities. The point to be noted is that, there are elements that do this, just like there are militants who attack anyone who is pro-India.


*The Hindu : News / National : Omar, Mirwaiz assure Sikhs of security*

Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah and chairman of the Hurriyat Conference (moderate) Mirwaiz Umar Farooq on Thursday assured the Sikh community of its safety and security.

This came in the backdrop of an incident at Malangpora in Pulwama, in which the hair of a Sikh youth was allegedly cut by a group of youths who wanted him to raise slogans in favour of freedom.

Deputy Inspector-General of Police (South Kashmir Range) Shaqat Watali said the youth from Devar Tral was on way home after work at the Air Force Station. Some youths stopped him and asked him to raise pro-freedom slogans. But he did not oblige them. They abused him and cut off some of his hair, he told The Hindu, quoting the complaint filed by the youth.

Mr. Watali said he could not identify anyone, but we have picked up two suspects for questioning, and further investigation is on. Through consultations with leaders of both communities, the situation was brought under control. Both the communities worked together, so that the situation did not flare up, though there was palpable tension in some areas.

However, at Press Enclave and Hyderpora in Srinagar, Baramulla and other places, Sikhs protested and urged the government to act against the culprits.

A delegation of Sikh leaders met Mr. Abdullah and the Mirwaiz. Mr. Abdullah told the delegation that the government was committed to secularism and brotherhood which, he said was the essence of Kashmiriyat.'

He assured them of their security and welfare, and vowed to deal sternly with elements that harboured designs to disturb communal harmony. The majority community in Kashmir always respected the sentiments of the Sikhs, he said.

An official spokesman said the delegation professed full faith in the Chief Minister and promised him that the Sikh community, which had always worked to strengthen the communal harmony in the past two decades of turmoil in the State, would continue to do so in future.

The Mirwaiz termed the incident intolerable and asked the community leaders to remain cautious, as such a situation will have dangerous consequences.

The Mirwaiz said the Hurriyat Conference would work with the Sikh Co-ordination Committee to foil such designs. There was no place for [such] acts in our culture.


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## Nahraf

The RAW has been known to hire people to make threats that give bad name to Islam and Pakistan. This could be another RAW plot.


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## civfanatic

self delete


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## sensenreason

If Sikhs can be relocated to Punjab from J & K why cant Kashmir Valley Muslim protestors sent to Pakistan?


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## civfanatic

IndianRobo said:


> The party which looses is GOI, We had the support of Sikh Community there as they did not want any partition from India, the Hindu Pandits showed the same attitude, and there fate are the same, Getting Kiked Out of Kashmir, the only one getting Benefited are The Militants there, for which they are kicking Out anyone who does not support them.... Its a Periodic process for them to Nurture Only those who belong there religion and Others are Just Enemies of theirs...



You are making a lot of assumptions here and one of them is that sikh community in kashmir is predominantly pro -india . Even if someone agrees with your assumption the moot point is that in demographic terms sikhs are less than 1% of valleys population . They can influence niether political discourse(vis a vis Kashmirs accession to india ) nor a plebicite in kashmir valley . 


> Kashmiris as a whole do not want freedom, only Muslims there are brain washed by these terrorists .. Now If Sikhs are also Kicked away, there will be Pure Islamic Rule and Make another afghanistan out of Kashmir


 

This part of your post reflects your hatred for muslims and you can't hide that by accusing us kashmiri muslims as bieng brain washed . Anyone who reads this will understand who is brainwashed and who is not .


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## arihant

civfanatic said:


> You are making a lot of assumptions here and one of them is that sikh community in kashmir is predominantly pro -india . Even if someone agrees with your assumption the moot point is that in demographic terms sikhs are less than 1% of valleys population . They can influence neither political discourse(vis a vis Kashmirs accession to india ) nor a plebicite in kashmir valley .
> 
> This part of your post reflects your hatred for muslims and you can't hide that by accusing us Kashmiri Muslims as being brain washed . Anyone who reads this will understand who is brainwashed and who is not .



Because some one is in minority they should be prosecuted. Thank You for your effort to prove your point.

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## Pride

civfanatic said:


> You are making a lot of assumptions here and one of them is that sikh community in kashmir is predominantly pro -india . Even if someone agrees with your assumption the moot point is that in demographic terms sikhs are less than 1% of valleys population . They can influence niether political discourse(vis a vis Kashmirs accession to india ) nor a plebicite in kashmir valley .


I hate to jump in other's discussion but need to show you mirror here.
Sikh community (except 1% pro-khalistani) are always pro-India and what they will get if another islamic nation will be created. Hence his point is not imagination but fact. To check the same you need to go there.

Very conveniently you came on your hidden agenda. This was the reason Kashmiri Pundits were ethnically cleansed from that area and now you are talking the same for Sikhs. I just saw Gilani's subordinate video. It is more over religious than nationalistic. 



> This part of your post reflects your hatred for muslims and you can't hide that by accusing us kashmiri muslims as bieng brain washed . Anyone who reads this will understand who is brainwashed and who is not .



If you think he is wrong then show me any uprising in Jammu and Laddakh region which is predominantly Hindu and Buddhist. This is you who is looking from your religious glasses and not vice versa. Have you ever come up something that we should bring back Kashmiri Pundits and then talk about independance.. Nopes and you will never do the same... Reason is simple.. Hypocrisy..


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## Hulk

There is no doubt that all that is happening in Kashmir is purely driven by religion. Kashmir has best deal with India Article 376 etc and till 1989 there was no Indian forces issue as well. The whole struggle started only by religious fanatics, it is clearly visible when first thing they did was kick out Kashmiri Hindus. Till date not even a single Kashmiri replied as to why they kicked Hindus out?


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## civfanatic

arihant said:


> Because some one is in minority they should be prosecuted. Thank You for your effort to prove your point.



Which part of my post did say that if some one is in minority they should be prosecuted. My point was that sikh prescence in valley is not something that can influence politics of kashmir vis a vis India . From indian POV the political value of sikh community is marginal and the propaganda value of persecuted sikhs in valley is great . Your post reflects the lack of comprehension and nothing more .


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## back me up

Nahraf said:


> The RAW has been known to hire people to make threats that give bad name to Islam and Pakistan. This could be another RAW plot.



WOW. u know so much. RAW must be keeping you informed and up-to-date

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## Pride

indianrabbit said:


> There is no doubt that all that is happening in Kashmir is purely driven by religion. Kashmir has best deal with India Article 376 etc and till 1989 there was no Indian forces issue as well. The whole struggle started only by religious fanatics, it is clearly visible when first thing they did was kick out Kashmiri Hindus. Till date not even a single Kashmiri replied as to why they kicked Hindus out?



Bro, If they will not make it religious for outlook then How will GoP show their countrymen and OIC that Muslims are oppressed by Zionists whether it is Palestine by Jews or Kashmiris by Hindus..


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## Pride

civfanatic said:


> Which part of my post did say that if some one is in minority they should be prosecuted. My point was that sikh prescence in valley is not something that can influence politics of kashmir vis a vis India . From indian POV the political value of sikh community is marginal and the propaganda value of persecuted sikhs in valley is great . Your post reflects the lack of comprehension and nothing more .



According by your logic, the % of separatists are very less in comparison to whole population of J&K why dont we pack their bag and send them to some "Azad" country?


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## FreekiN

You can't be a Muslim if you were forced.

Case closed.

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## mjnaushad

FreekiN said:


> You can't be a Muslim if you were forced.
> 
> Case closed.


Best post of the thread....


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## civfanatic

Pride said:


> I hate to jump in other's discussion but need to show you mirror here.
> Sikh community (except 1% pro-khalistani) are always pro-India and what they will get if another islamic nation will be created. Hence his point is not imagination but fact. To check the same you need to go there.


 I have already said that the sikh community in kashmir is pro india is an assumption which may or may not be true . Further i have said even if we concede that they are pro India thier utility to GOI to severly constrainted by thier demographic wieght in valley . if you have any problem with this assertion we can discuss that . And BTW Im in srinagar right now . 




> Very conveniently you came on your hidden agenda. This was the reason Kashmiri Pundits were ethnically cleansed from that area and now you are talking the same for Sikhs. I just saw Gilani's subordinate video. It is more over religious than nationalistic.



It is as much as religous as Gandhis Ramrajya 





> If you think he is wrong then show me any uprising in Jammu and Laddakh region which is predominantly Hindu and Buddhist. This is you who is looking from your religious glasses and not vice versa. Have you ever come up something that we should bring back Kashmiri Pundits and then talk about independance.. Nopes and you will never do the same... Reason is simple.. Hypocrisy..



It is the movement of valley for freedom , whether jammu and laddakh are happy with status quo it is for them to decide . The diffrence between jammu , laddakh and kashmir is not predominantly religous as you are implicitly saying .There are 55% and 40% muslim population in Laddakh and Jammu respectively . The more substantial diffrences are ethnic and linguistic .So who is seeing this conflict from a religous POV ? you or me ?

As far as return of kashmiri pandits is concerned every pro freedom leader has appealed then to return .But pundits want kashmiri muslims to give up thier demand of freedom before returning .
See the video here in which aditya koul says he will return when kashmirs give up there dream of freedom .




 So who is bieng hypocrite ?


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## Hulk

@civfanatic if you are from Indian Kashmir. I have few questions for you. Hope you don't run away.
1) Why Kashmiri's started stone pelting on Amarnath land issue? Do you think talk was not the way?
2) Why you guys start pelting stone instead of talking.
3) Why did you kicked out Hindus? I do not need a reply they can come back. 
more to come...


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## arihant

civfanatic said:


> Which part of my post did say that if some one is in minority they should be prosecuted. My point was that sikh prescence in valley is not something that can influence politics of kashmir vis a vis India . From indian POV the political value of sikh community is marginal and the propaganda value of persecuted sikhs in valley is great . Your post reflects the lack of comprehension and nothing more .
> 
> As far as return of kashmiri pandits is concerned every pro freedom leader has appealed then to return .But pundits want kashmiri muslims to give up thier demand of freedom before returning .



Well Hindus which constituted 18&#37; of Kashmir Valley are now 1%. So what you term it ? They hardly had any effect on politics yaah...

This way you will nationalize whole Kashmir Valley as Muslim Valley.

Oh! i suppose you mean that Sikhs are one percent and it doesn't affect Kashmir valley politics... That would be OK in our country but we cannot to take away any share from anything.

PS. And about returning those Pandits, you mean killing all of them suddenly like what happen from 1989. I hope you don't need list of all those massacre. Even they never thrown stone to anyone but they still got killed and when someone is killed while throwing he is asked to become hero. (If I remember, something like 30 got killed in one day in Karachi for violence, and you take it totally different)


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## RobbieS

FreekiN said:


> You can't be a Muslim if you were forced.
> 
> Case closed.



Appreciate your post Freekin, but thats not the point here.

According to the Quran, one who kills innocents isn't a Muslim either. But how much of that is actually followed or believed? Your statement is an easy way to wriggle out of debates around forced conversions. But the fact remains that incidents happen and threats like these are made.

Those of you calling this an Indian conspiracy conveniently forget what started 2 decades ago. Kashmiri Pandits were hounded out of their homes by zealots who saw them as extensions of Indian rule. They forgot that these people were as much Kashmiri as themselves and that there own ancestors were Hindus or Buddhists. Was this done by Indian agencies as well? Did Indian agencies themselves try and initiate an ethnic cleansing to discredit the separatists?


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## EjazR

*@civfanatic*

I can understand why Kashmiri Pandits are uncomfortable to return to the valley, when even non-kashmir govt, employees like railway employees are not comfortable to return.

Woudl you deny the fact that that if only the valley which is 5 million people andconsistsof less than 10&#37; of the geographical area of the entire state of J&K state want independance and the rest of the parts don't then it is non-viable?

The reality is that Pakistan is not parting away with Gilgit Baltistan or any part of Kashmir under their control.

As you saw in the program, the Pandits are ready to support the valley muslims on every issue, removal of AFSPA, HR violations, multicultural society and all that, but the onething they can't support is secession.

I would go further and say that Indians from all across the board would support the KAshmiris if the give up the rhetoric of secession. Every Indian barring some right wing nutjobs would sympathise with the Kashmiris in the valley, but when secession is raised as a religious struggleas Geelani does, it becomes a losing battle precisely because this is UnIslamic. The idea of establishing a political Islamicstate is deviant innovation and bound to fail.

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## magg

> According to the Quran, one who kills innocents isn't a Muslim either. But how much of that is actually followed or believed? Your statement is an easy way to wriggle out of debates around forced conversions. But the fact remains that incidents happen and threats like these are made.



Exactly !!! These terrorists are nothing but Islamist radicals who want to create a 7th century islamist state. They forced the Kashmiri Pandits out of the valley when those people were living there for centuries. 

The Terrorists sponsored by ISI regularly targeted both Kashmiri pandits as well as the shias of the valley so that a radical islamic state of sunnis could be created. Then the ISI forced the shia dominated terrorist groups to accept the killing of shias so that the world wont view the terrorism from an islamic radicals point of view. 

This was one of the main reason for terrorists groups like JKLF to be disenchanted with the ISI and surrender. That is why all those terrorist groups are not still fighting, who were part of the inception of the terror activities in Kashmir. They are understood the evil designs of ISI to create a radical 7th century Taliban diktats like state to further pursue the policies of ISI in destabilizing India using Kashmiris as a tool. 

The recent attacks in sopore by these islamic radical terrorists on common innocent civilians show this grand strategy to radicalize the youth of Kashmir. One such article link is given below :
The Hindu : States / Other States : Inside the Islamist resurgence in Sopore

The real kashmiris will however never let the evil designs of ISI to be executed and will always fight against it. Thus the sikhs of kashmir would rather like to die in kashmir rather than being forced to move out of it. The ISI may be successful in planting sunnis in P_O_K upto 90&#37; of population but in the end they will have to pay for their strategy of giving support to the Islamic radicals.

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## Jade

civfanatic said:


> You are making a lot of assumptions here and one of them is that sikh community in kashmir is predominantly pro -india . Even if someone agrees with your assumption the moot point is that in demographic terms sikhs are less than 1&#37; of valleys population . They can influence niether political discourse(vis a vis Kashmirs accession to india ) nor a plebicite in kashmir valley



Aren&#8217;t you guilty of the same&#8230;assuming that the entire Kashmir valley Muslims wants secession from India. Please talk about yourself and don't generalize.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Pride said:


> True and still Pakistani denies the fact that there is always a religious angle attached to Kashmir struggle. They always compare Kashmir with Palestine for atrocities against muslims but will never talk about Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs... Selective choice ..huh



The focus is primarily on allowing for a plebiscite - that inherently means that the Pandits and whoever else is in J&K would also have to vote. AFAIK, Pakistanis have said nothing about the Pandits or non-Muslims in J&K not having a voice.

In fact I have often pointed out that the UN can undertake a process of verifying and registering both the Kashmiri pandits as well as the millions of Muslim Kashmiri immigrants in Europe, so that both parties are able to cast their vote.

But since Indians typically refuse to even consider implementing the Kashmir right of self-determination, the vote of the Pandits rarely gets touched upon.

Also, the religious dimension of the Kashmiri separatist movement should not be automatically conflated with the minority of religious extremists elements present in Kashmir. One letter and a few acts by extremists do no mean the entire separatist movement, religious or ethnic, subscribes to such positions.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

EjazR said:


> *@civfanatic*
> 
> I can understand why Kashmiri Pandits are uncomfortable to return to the valley, when even non-kashmir govt, employees like railway employees are not comfortable to return.
> 
> Woudl you deny the fact that that if only the valley which is 5 million people andconsistsof less than 10&#37; of the geographical area of the entire state of J&K state want independance and the rest of the parts don't then it is non-viable?
> 
> The reality is that Pakistan is not parting away with Gilgit Baltistan or any part of Kashmir under their control.
> 
> As you saw in the program, the Pandits are ready to support the valley muslims on every issue, removal of AFSPA, HR violations, multicultural society and all that, but the onething they can't support is secession.
> 
> I would go further and say that Indians from all across the board would support the KAshmiris if the give up the rhetoric of secession. Every Indian barring some right wing nutjobs would sympathise with the Kashmiris in the valley, but when secession is raised as a religious struggleas Geelani does, it becomes a losing battle precisely because this is UnIslamic. The idea of establishing a political Islamicstate is deviant innovation and bound to fail.


That is why the proposals on region wise plebiscite or district-wise plebiscite are a valid proposal.

And to turn your argument around, why should a very small minority of Hindu Pandits be the reason that the majority of Kashmiris are denied their right to self-determination?

Gilgit-Baltistan, despite Indian propaganda on the issue, is not going to vote for India in a plebiscite (especially with the new G-B autonomy package) - the region's peoples lent their support to Pakistani forces in 1947, and the region has been sending its sons into the military for a long time now.


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## Irfan Baloch

EjazR said:


> *@civfanatic*
> 
> I can understand why Kashmiri Pandits are uncomfortable to return to the valley, when even non-kashmir govt, employees like railway employees are not comfortable to return.
> 
> Woudl you deny the fact that that if only the valley which is 5 million people andconsistsof less than 10% of the geographical area of the entire state of J&K state want independance and the rest of the parts don't then it is non-viable?
> 
> The reality is that Pakistan is not parting away with Gilgit Baltistan or any part of Kashmir under their control.
> 
> As you saw in the program, the Pandits are ready to support the valley muslims on every issue, removal of AFSPA, HR violations, multicultural society and all that, but the onething they can't support is secession.
> 
> I would go further and say that Indians from all across the board would support the KAshmiris if the give up the rhetoric of secession. Every Indian barring some right wing nutjobs would sympathise with the Kashmiris in the valley, but when secession is raised as a religious struggleas Geelani does, it becomes a losing battle precisely because this is UnIslamic. The idea of establishing a political Islamicstate is deviant innovation and bound to fail.





Thanks for your post. first of all I would totally condemn this threat by the Taliban inspired fanatics. The Kashmiri independence struggle has suffered a lot from these fanatics and has actually given excuse to Indian state for its continued military operations.

People making such threats are more loyal to that extremist ideology that was imported from Saudi Arabia during the cold war. Although I would blame psywarfare of the Indian intelligence agencies but totally ignoring the Wahabi influence in the Kashmiri militants wont be right..
It is only natural that such groups would get encouragements from the antics of the TTP operatives. Hence what we see is an attempt of sabotaging the freedom struggle and converting it into a movement of talibanization. Kashmir pundist had been supportive of the freedom movement but what had been happening in the recent times at the hands of some militant organisations has only damaged the cause.

Sadly the 2 countries are condemned into this confrontation that was caused by the unjust marking of the borders by the British Empire and how the Kashmiri people were denied to exercise their vote. 
Ironic, that the west teaches us the ways of democracy, mocks and criticises our customs and when the eventual results doesnt suit it. Then it crucifies all the moral principals of democracy and free will.

I agree to some of your points specially the matter of secession. If we have the moral courage then we will have to give and take and come to a middle ground. But the wishes of the Kashmiris are of main importance. But you so rightly pointed out the demographic disparities.

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## magg

> The focus is primarily on allowing for a plebiscite - that inherently means that the Pandits and whoever else is in J&K would also have to vote. AFAIK, Pakistanis have said nothing about the Pandits or non-Muslims in J&K not having a voice.
> 
> In fact I have often pointed out that the UN can undertake a process of verifying and registering both the Kashmiri pandits as well as the millions of Muslim Kashmiri immigrants in Europe, so that both parties are able to cast their vote.



There can be no question of plebiscite now as Pakistan has resorted to terrorism and psychological war. The plebiscite as a option could have been employed if both India and Pakistan tried to resolve the issue peacefully. 

However since Pak has tried to islamised Kashmir and planted non kashmiris in P_O_K to change the shia-sunni status that existed prior to it's occupation as well as drove the non muslims out of Indian Administered Kashmir, there is no such option valid uptill now. The use of forced to occupy kashmir has breached the agreed terms and a new ground needs to be set for it's resolution. 

May be if Pak gets the UN to have a plebiscite in Gilgit-Baltistan and kashmir, we can consider the request, otherwise it is not on table.



> One letter and a few acts by extremists do no mean the entire separatist movement, religious or ethnic, subscribes to such positions.


And what about the mass killings of kashmiri pandits ? Even on the day Bill Clinton arrived in New Delhi, there was mass murder of Sikhs in kashmir. Moreover the surrendered terrorist groups have already told about how the ISI was killing pandits, sikhs and shias to change the demography of Kashmir. 

Also do tell why have all those groups who were part of plan in the 80's, no longer fighting and have abdicated violence ?. Why is LeT, a punjabi dominated terrorist group, the only formidable force in Kashmir now ?

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## Justin Joseph

civfanatic said:


> YouTube - Government agencies Behind Harrasment of Sikhs in Valley "Hurriyat"
> 
> Its amazing that for past 20 years of violence nobody asked Sikhs to embrace Islam and now when India has been left with no other ploy to malign independence movement very conveniently this BS appears . Last ditch effort by Indian intelligence agencies to paint independence movement as communal.



Because the Sikhs are the largest minority group in valley as they have killed Hindus and make them leave valley now its the turn of Sikhs.

But all of their plans will fall like they are falling from 1947.

Its just as soon as India get rid of Manmohan singh you will see a sea change.


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## LaBong

Kashmir struggle is purely religious, there is no other way of explaining it. 

First of all, historically independence struggle have been fought with a foreign invading power over a piece of territory which has been forcefully taken for economic exploitation, depriving the natives most basic rights. In case of Kashmir India does not "economically exploit" Kashmir. India is not taking anything from Kashmir, there's nothing to take out actually; rather it's pumping massive amount to 'buy' loyalty though I'm not sure if this money is used in development work or ultimately lands up to wrong hand. Kashmiris enjoy privileges over property ownership thus effectively making them "super citizen" rather than inferior ones. 

Both Mughals and British were outsiders, but Sikh or Marathas war with Mughals wasn't independence struggle, India's fight with England was.

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## civfanatic

indianrabbit said:


> @civfanatic if you are from Indian Kashmir. I have few questions for you. Hope you don't run away.


No, I don't live in Indian Kashmir I live in Indian Occupied Kashmir 



> 1) Why Kashmiri's started stone pelting on Amarnath land issue? Do you think talk was not the way?


It is amazing to see such a reductionist approach where Our every struggle is denigrated as stone pelting . What you were forced to see by your media is not the whole story. The whole story is like this the story about Amaranth land transfer started to surface around late April 2008 there were lot of petitions and appeals to Government to stop the land transfer but the government remained adamant and in fact the then governor Sinha ridiculed the petitions as being motivated by vested interests . It was around june when people began to come on streets to register their protest . When Govt used violence to curb these protests the guys had no other option but to take on stone pelting . So government had a huge window of opportunity to resolve the controversy amicably but it decided not to do so. So to blame Kashmiris for resorting to stone pelting instead of talking is unfair.




> 2) Why you guys start pelting stone instead of talking.



Answer is as given above Stone pelting is a reaction when peaceful protests are not allowed .


> 3) Why did you kicked out Hindus? I do not need a reply they can come back.
> more to come...


It is not as black & white as you assume . Kashmiri pundits left in circumstances for which a complex set of factors was responsible. Of course one of contributing factors was around 200 killings of Kashmiri pundits by Kashmiri militants and we in Kashmir must take part of that blame . Having said that I want say one more thing when armed insurgency started Kashmiri militants killed people who were perceived to be close to India and that these included Muslims . However I want to concede that a substantial number might have been motivated by religious intentions. The GOI and pundit elite used these killings to create a state of fear among pundits and arranged for their migration from Kashmir . Hence a substantial amount of blame for Kashmiri pundit migration must be appropriated by GOI and Pundit elite also.

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## magg

> No, I don't live in Indian Kashmir I live in Indian Occupied Kashmir



Nah, you are not. 


> When Govt used violence to curb these protests the guys had no other option but to take on stone pelting .


Firstly, the stones were never there in such large numbers as the security forces cleaned the roads of any stone after first few days. They were transported there by ISI agents to stir the protesters to go violent. ISI agents among the crowd used to start the process as they are doing now. 

The Amarnath land was never a issue with the common people as the Amarnath yatra generates the economy of the muslims around there. The only source of those muslims income come from the yatris. So granting land for the same could never had been converted into a big issue of people v/s govt as local kashmiris get their employment from it. The issue was created for vested interests of instigating violence in a relatively peaceful kashmir since 2006.


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## Irfan Baloch

magg said:


> May be if Pak gets the UN to have a plebiscite in Gilgit-Baltistan and kashmir, we can consider the request, otherwise it is not on table.



Oh for sure any time. by the way its not you who would decide if the Kashmiris can exercise their right or not. 
you just shot yourself on the foot by agreeing to it



> And what about the mass killings of kashmiri pandits ? Even on the day Bill Clinton arrived in New Delhi,




what are you talking about? mass murder? come on. your security forces kill more people in fake encounters everyday. no need to exagerate things

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## Irfan Baloch

magg said:


> Firstly, the stones were never there in such large numbers as the security forces cleaned the roads of any stone after first few days. They were transported there by ISI agents to stir the protesters to go violent. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.



hahaha 

you just mde my day.. what are you sniffing these days..


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## civfanatic

EjazR said:


> *@civfanatic*
> 
> I can understand why Kashmiri Pandits are uncomfortable to return to the valley, when even non-kashmir govt, employees like railway employees are not comfortable to return.
> 
> Woudl you deny the fact that that if only the valley which is 5 million people andconsistsof less than 10% of the geographical area of the entire state of J&K state want independance and the rest of the parts don't then it is non-viable?
> 
> The reality is that Pakistan is not parting away with Gilgit Baltistan or any part of Kashmir under their control.
> 
> As you saw in the program, the Pandits are ready to support the valley muslims on every issue, removal of AFSPA, HR violations, multicultural society and all that, but the onething they can't support is secession.
> 
> I would go further and say that Indians from all across the board would support the KAshmiris if the give up the rhetoric of secession. Every Indian barring some right wing nutjobs would sympathise with the Kashmiris in the valley, but when secession is raised as a religious struggleas Geelani does, it becomes a losing battle precisely because this is UnIslamic. The idea of establishing a political Islamicstate is deviant innovation and bound to fail.


Ejaz , I know Aditya koul very well and his association Roots in Kashmir and panun kashmir which are like kashmiri franchise of RSS and VHP . But that is not the main point . The main point is nationalist aspiration of Kashmir if kashmiri pandits are not comfortable with that in ok but they can't have a veto over our aspirations . Isn't it selfish on thier part to demand that 97% of population toe thier line ? 


> Woudl you deny the fact that that if only the valley which is 5 million people andconsistsof less than 10% of the geographical area of the entire state of J&K state want independance and the rest of the parts don't then it is non-viable?


I can't say anything about it ,it is for other regions to decide for themselves whether they are ok with status quo or not . Kashmir is not and i hope it is clear in India . Kashmir wants freedom and that means right to choose b/w India , pakistan or independence and it is too early to call what would be final disposition and whether that would be viable or not .

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## magg

> Isn't it selfish on thier part to demand that 97&#37; of population toe thier line ?


Not 97% but less than 10%. Read a recent study done by a british group for updating your knowledge. Most people want employment rather than any kind of freedom. 
By the way if the question is between India, Pak or Freedom then first free the part given by Pak to China which is a third of P_O_K. If and when you guys free the part occupied by China, you can discuss the Pak, India or Freedom option. I have never seen any kashmiri raise a voice against China occupied Kashmir, although every man in this world would fight for even a single inch of it's territory to be occupied by any other. This shows that the Kashmiris are being brainwashed by the ISI, so that they never raise a voice against China.

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## civfanatic

magg said:


> Not 97% but less than 10%. Read a recent study done by a british group for updating your knowledge. Most people want employment rather than any kind of freedom.
> By the way if the question is between India, Pak or Freedom then first free the part given by Pak to China which is a third of P_O_K. If and when you guys free the part occupied by China, you can discuss the Pak, India or Freedom option. I have never seen any kashmiri raise a voice against China occupied Kashmir, although every man in this world would fight for even a single inch of it's territory to be occupied by any other. This shows that the Kashmiris are being brainwashed by the ISI, so that they never raise a voice against China.



You are completly berfet of any logic ...According to you logic I should protest for a piece of land where not a single blade of grass grows acc to you first pm rather than protest against India which occupies every street , every field of town I call home .

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## IBRIS

Justin Joseph said:


> Because the Sikhs are the largest minority group in valley as they have killed Hindus and make them leave valley now its the turn of Sikhs.
> 
> But all of their plans will fall like they are falling from 1947.


They are already starting to fall apart. Today there was an urgent meeting called in Punjab by MLA's and MP's, Just how to handle such situations in time of crisis. As i mentioned earlier such adventures by separatist's or whoever wants to play dirty will have to face the consequences. Punjab government is no ones pawn and they will be watching this very closely, because it will directly involve Punjab Gov't intervention or would face an exile in next election. days are gone when you could do what you wanted in the name of religion to spread hatred among indigenous inhabitants. Sikh's will keep Punjab Gov't on there toes over this development. It won't be like 1987-88 where GOI's response was bit late. 

Religious bhaichara still exists among majority of Kashmiri's. so, let's pray that day will never come when kashmir is split over religion.


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## Hulk

@civfanatic
1) Why did the Amarnath board cannot have land for temporary use. Does Hindus not have right to perform their religious duties? Why did no one approached court or tried to settle matter there, the land was going nowhere and hence no provocation for stone pelting. Just because government does not like your views does not you start behaving uncivilized. Many Indians lost all respect for Kashmiri's as this was seen as attack on Hindu faith, stopping Hindus from their rights. 
2) Before 89 what kind of freedom you did not had, leave country part. Were you not free to move, speake, buy what kind of freedom you did not had to start killimg


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## civfanatic

indianrabbit said:


> @civfanatic
> 1) Why did the Amarnath board cannot have land for temporary use. Does Hindus not have right to perform their religious duties? Why did no one approached court or tried to settle matter there, the land was going nowhere and hence no provocation for stone pelting. Just because government does not like your views does not you start behaving uncivilized. Many Indians lost all respect for Kashmiri's as this was seen as attack on Hindu faith, stopping Hindus from their rights.


It was not an attack on hindu faith but a defence against an attempt by Indian State to change demography in J&K . That was the perception in kashmir . Whether that perception was correct or not is another topic and would derail the current thread . If you want to discuss that start another thread .


> 2) Before 89 what kind of freedom you did not had, leave country part. Were you not free to move, speake, buy what kind of freedom you did not had to start killimg



89 was start of armed struggle but the demand of azaadi had been constant feature of Kashmirs politics right since 27th oct 1947. We resisted with every available means and in 1989 that means was gun .

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## Bhairava

Azad Kashmir said:


> For all those Indians complaining about the 'ethnic cleansing', *it has been going on since the Maharaja, but I don't see any Indian members talking about that*. I believe that was one of the worst, *if not worst cases of oppression in South Asia*. Now, the Sikh's and Hindu's were of a higher 'class' at that time, and as you can *understand wounds from that era would still have their marks on Kashmir*. This in turn causes a level of 'divide' among the Kashmiri communities where some muslims feel hostility towards the Hindu/Sikh community. What I find sad in this case is that, nobody was prosecuted over the oppression of Kashmiri muslims and this was the biggest oppression/genocide in modern South Asian history. The same pattern must not be followed with the Sikh's and Hindu's, those that oppress them *must* be punished accordingly if not it will only lead to a cycle of violence.
> 
> The Kashmiri leaders need to work towards unity between the different communities in Kashmir. We, Kashmiris are the victims of religious divide and the youth must not fall into this disgusting buissness. I find that any 'freedom fighter' that oppresses a Hindu or Sikh is nearly as worst as the Indian Army. Another sad thing is, that the religious divide is still happening. The majority Hindu (then Sikh) Indian army is oppressing the muslims and the youth can sometimes place their hate at the wrong place.
> 
> Kashmir is for Kashmiris, not Hindus, Sikhs or Muslims.



How can you justify etnic cleansing now just because it happened to the Muslims in the distant past ?(also show me proof for that)

And by that same logic are not the Hindus and Sikhs justified by the wounds and scars left by the Muslim invaders in the past 600 years.?


I dont believe in this and if u believe in this tit-for-tat then this cycle will go on forever.

And I also noticed a line in your post - Hindu and Sikh Majority Indian Army harasses Muslims - just because Muslims dont join in the Army doesnt mean they are not allowed to.Understand the difference.

Also given 87% of the Indian Population is non-Islamic they are bound to majority in the Armed forces too/

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## Bhairava

civfanatic said:


> It was not an attack on hindu faith but a defence against an attempt by Indian State to change demography in J&K . That was the perception in kashmir . Whether that perception was correct or not is another topic and would derail the current thread . If you want to discuss that start another thread .



Then that perception was completely devoid logic and another example of how u people are being completely misled by your so-called-leaders.

How can the Indian governent change the demography with pilgrims who will be there for just the yatra.?

And if it was the intention to change the demography - then I guess India would have long ago scrapped the Article 370 of the Indian Constitution that grants special status to Kashmir.

If it had thought so we have enough of our citizens to change the demography in 1 year.But we dont think so.




civfanatic said:


> 89 was start of armed struggle but the demand of azaadi had been constant feature of Kashmirs politics right since 27th oct 1947. We resisted with every available means and in 1989 that means was gun .



I havent heard of protests in the 70 s and the 80 s .In fact we culd defeat the Op.Gibralter only because the native Kashmiris informed the Indian Army of the presence of infiltrating Pakistani Spec forces.

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## Hulk

@civfanatic How can the demographics be changed? If your perception was wrong whoes fault is that? Also similarly why you guys resort to stone pelting and rioting wihtout waiting for facts?
Two more cases I know. 
1) Sophain rape case, later proved rape never happened. 
2) Murder by friend balmed on Army.

Also you did not replied to my early question.
What freedom u did not had before 89, do not tell me about freedom struggle. My point is u had more freedom then rest of India and just because some people were religious brainwashed they were finding excuse to fight.


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## civfanatic

Gounder said:


> Then that perception was completely devoid logic and another example of how u people are being completely misled by your so-called-leaders.
> 
> How can the Indian governent change the demography with pilgrims who will be there for just the yatra.?
> 
> And if it was the intention to change the demography - then I guess India would have long ago scrapped the Article 370 of the Indian Constitution that grants special status to Kashmir.
> 
> 
> If it had thought so we have enough of our citizens to change the demography in 1 year.But we dont think so.
> 
> .



I already said in that post whether such perception was correct or not can be debated .But since it would derail the current thread it needs to discussed in seprate thread . This was written in simple english , I wonder why were you unable to comprehend ?



> I havent heard of protests in the 70 s and the 80 s .In fact we culd defeat the Op.Gibralter only because the native Kashmiris informed the Indian Army of the presence of infiltrating Pakistani Spec forces.



If you were aware of kashmirs history you would have desisted from writting this puerile stuff.Let me just mention name of one movement led by shiekh abdullah ....plebicite front


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## Bhairava

civfanatic said:


> I already said in that post whether such perception was correct or not can be debated .But since it would derail the current thread it needs to discussed in seprate thread . This was written in simple english , I wonder why were you unable to comprehend ?



OR rather it is very much relevant to the current thread.This thread is about the demography in Kashmir and I dont think I went offtopic there.

There has been a concerted attempt to make this movement a religious movement and dont mind If I tell you that by making it as one you are just shooting yourself in the foot.

Of all the reasons,*the division of Kashmir based on idealogy is definitely not possible/permissible* as it will take away the very definition of India as a secular state where all religions co-exist.

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## civfanatic

indianrabbit said:


> @civfanatic How can the demographics be changed? If your perception was wrong whoes fault is that? Also similarly why you guys resort to stone pelting and rioting wihtout waiting for facts?



Whether that perception was correct or not is another topic and would derail the current thread . If you want to discuss that start another thread . Its amazing that i had to post this three times .I have mentioned earlier also but I will reitrate that stone pelting occurs becuase peacefull protests are not allowed to occur . But if you still want to hang on to your beliefs im happy . Stone pelting is just minor part of protests but Indian media would want to project it as something as end in itself 


> Two more cases I know.
> 
> 1) Sophain rape case, later proved rape never happened.


Who proved that Indian CBI ? A coverup by CBI which people reject completly 


> 2) Murder by friend balmed on Army.



What do you expect in place where hundreds of fake killings have taken place . The fact is that within half an hour of polices solving the case any protests taking place died down becuase we in kashmir have not lost our rationality .We can still diffrentiate and discrimnate between right a wrong.



> Also you did not replied to my early question.
> What freedom u did not had before 89, do not tell me about freedom struggle. My point is u had more freedom then rest of India and just because some people were religious brainwashed they were finding excuse to fight.



We have been demanding the biggest freedom in world that is self determination and are still fighting for that .

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## Bhairava

civfanatic said:


> Whether that perception was correct or not is another topic and would derail the current thread . If you want to discuss that start another thread . Its amazing that i had to post this three times .I have mentioned earlier also but I will reitrate that stone pelting occurs becuase peacefull protests are not allowed to occur . But if you still want to hang on to your beliefs im happy . Stone pelting is just minor part of protests but Indian media would want to project it as something as end in itself
> 
> Who proved that Indian CBI ? A coverup by CBI which people reject completly



Ok who else you want to believe.??please dont say some brainwashed Hurriyat leader..we cannot accept them.






civfanatic said:


> What do you expect in place where hundreds of fake killings have taken place . The fact is that within half an hour of polices solving the case any protests taking place died down becuase we in kashmir have not lost our rationality .We can still diffrentiate and discrimnate between right a wrong.



Mate if you can agree with the police when they say about fake killings,then why not agree with the same police when they say that the girls were not raped,but rather they drowned.
Hypocrisy.





civfanatic said:


> We have been demanding the biggest freedom in world that is self determination and are still fighting for that .



Sorry to say.But you unfortunaltely guys are sitting on a stategic piece of land and India cannot afford to let go of you.

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## civfanatic

RamGorur said:


> Can you explain, if possible without resorting to too much emotional vomit, how did Kashmiris earn their 'right to self-determination'?



United Nations Security Council Resolution 47, adopted on April 21, 1948,

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## civfanatic

Gounder said:


> Mate if you can agree with the police when they say about fake killings,then why not agree with the same police when they say that the girls were not raped,but rather they drowned.
> Hypocrisy.


We didn't believe in police we believed in evidence given by police .


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## RamGorur

civfanatic said:


> United Nations Security Council Resolution 47, adopted on April 21, 1948,


But Chapter VI resolutions are not law unto themselves. Add to that, India didn't accept that resolution. Add to that, it got nullified by the resolution on 13th Aug, 1948.

What gives?


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## Bhairava

civfanatic said:


> United Nations Security Council Resolution 47, adopted on April 21, 1948,



*The same resolutions dont allow you to be independent*.It allows you to only be a part of Pakistan or India.

You know wat - t*he independence option was dropped at the behest of Pakistan*.!!!

Guessing from your flag you will choose Pakistan.But Indian canot allow a strategic piece of land for which we have paid a huge price in blood to simply go away so that some separatists are happy.




civfanatic said:


> We didn't believe in police we believed in evidence given by police .



and the verdict of the CBI was also based on evidence.

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## Jackdaws

This is hardly a surprise. Any movement which gathers steam on the basis of religion is bound to move more and more to the right - particularly true of the Abrahamic faiths but also true of most other religio-political movements. Should be condemned. Religion is a personal matter.

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## karan.1970

Paladin said:


> Whilst these actions cannot be condoned in any shape or form, your statement above is flawed... "One man's freedom fighter, Is another man's terrorist"...



Does it only apply to disputed land ?


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## SpArK

*Kashmiri students divided on 'azadi'*

2010-08-19 14:40:00
Even as Kashmir Valley continues to see protests and cries for 'azadi', a group of 60 Kashmiri students who visited Delhi were clearly divided on the issue of freedom, with some saying that youths were being brainwashed and others rooting for a plebiscite.

'*Some of the youth are being brainwashed by anti-national elements. The majority of the stone-pelters get money in return. Kashmir is and will remain an integral part of India,' said Sajad Yousuf, a student of Kashmir University*.

The 21-year-old who lives in Anantnag said India was developing at a fast pace and Kashmiris want to remain a part of it. 'At the same time, the armed forces should ensure that innocent people are not killed by their bullets.'

The group of students from Kashmir University, Islamic University for Science and Technology and other professional colleges were invited to interact with various political leaders in the capital Wednesday to find a way to calm the tempers of valley youth.

The valley, including Srinagar, has been on the boil since June 11, with stone-pelting protesters clashing with security forces. At least 60 people have been killed, mostly in firing by security personnel.

*Among the Kashmiri students who were in Delhi, those demanding a separate state argued that Kashmiris are a different race culturally, traditionally and ethnically and are not comfortable with being a part of India*.

'A plebiscite should take place and a decision should be taken by the people of Kashmir. We don't want to be a part of India or Pakistan,' said Adil Bashir, 24, a student from Islamic University of Science and Technology.

Another student from the same university who did not wished to be named admitted that he had been among those pelting stones at security forces.

'I am a stone pelter because of the armed forces who forced me to do such thing as they were continuously killing innocent people in the valley,' he said.

'I don't think of the security personnel as human beings when I hurl stones at them. For me, they are the face of the Indian state,' he added.

But 26-year-old Ashaq Hussain Dar, a student of Kashmir University, believes the whole idea of 'freedom' is warped.

'*What freedom are they talking about? There was only one freedom struggle and that was against the British, which we won, everything else is a farce. Out of 100 common Kashmiris, 80 want to remain with India,' he said.*

*He said many of the protesters have been taught what to do and what to say in front of the media and don't have a mind of their own. They are the messengers of the separatists,* he added.

Kashmiri students divided on 'azadi'


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## Undivided Kashmir

Only people creating disturbances are the people without work and those out of job people take money from terrorists / terrorist organisations to create disturbances.

People who wish to better their lives and their familes would not want to get to those terrorist activities.


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## GreenStar

This is very dissapointing news....I support Kashmir and there struggle for independence, however to use such intimidation tactics on others, who are not involved in this dispute.....is very very wrong. Kashmiri people are not just Muslims, but Sikhs and Hindues and they should respect each other's belief, regardless of the political scenrio that has been played in the last 60 odd years.

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## linkinpark

Time to put bullet in the heads of these Islamist extremists. They will only listen to bullets, talks are a waste of time with these stone age islamists.


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## GreenStar

> Time to put bullet in the heads of these Islamist extremists. They will only listen to bullets, talks are a waste of time with these stone age islamists.



Obviously that scenrio has not played well in the last 60 years....instead of killing them, you should educate them, otherwise these people will be replaced by the next generation, and the cycle will continue again and again.


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## IBRIS

linkinpark said:


> Time to put bullet in the heads of these Islamist extremists. They will only listen to bullets, talks are a waste of time with these stone age islamists.



These extrimists and there colleagues have belly-laughed at Kashmiri Pundits and now they wouldn't get away with doing same to Sikh's. These low tactics only embrace Sikhism further higher among other Sikh's. Every now and then fanatics test our courage and dedication towards our religion. We emerge even stronger than ever before against all odds. Maybe sacrifices are again needed to protect the honor and integrity of Sikhism.

*"JAAN JAYIH, PARR BACHAN NAA JAYIH"*


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## graphican

Look at this man and what he is trying to do. 

"*anonymous letters from Islamic militants*" Just like:A virgin mother has told about her daughter that she had pain in her testicles. 

You are sooo darn desperate to prove Kashmir Movement is indeed a terrorist movement but guess what..


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## BATMAN

Divide and Rule.... 
Where was this sify news when Kashmiri children were tortured by Indian security forces???

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## Bhairava

BATMAN said:


> Divide and Rule....
> Where was this sify news when Kashmiri children were tortured by Indian security forces???



Attack the message - not the messenger.


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## Bhairava

graphican said:


> Look at this man and what he is trying to do.
> 
> "*anonymous letters from Islamic militants*" Just like:A virgin mother has told about her daughter that she had pain in her testicles.
> 
> You are sooo darn desperate to prove Kashmir Movement is indeed a terrorist movement but guess what..



So what do you expect those cowards to do.?

Put in their bio-data along with the threatening letters? 

Please stop justifying them or deflect the blame from them.


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## civfanatic

RamGorur said:


> But Chapter VI resolutions are not law unto themselves. Add to that, India didn't accept that resolution. Add to that, it got nullified by the resolution on 13th Aug, 1948.
> 
> What gives?



Legality is hardly the issue , the morality is . The bottomline of all UN resolutions on kashmir is an that Kashmir is a dispute and needs to be resolved by allowing self determination in J&k . This is substance and all else is froth . Whether India accepts this or not hardly changes moral countours of Right of self determination of Kashmir .


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## civfanatic

GreenStar said:


> This is very dissapointing news....I support Kashmir and there struggle for independence, however to use such intimidation tactics on others, who are not involved in this dispute.....is very very wrong. Kashmiri people are not just Muslims, but Sikhs and Hindues and they should respect each other's belief, regardless of the political scenrio that has been played in the last 60 odd years.



Green Star please see the video below the guy is Patriach of our freedom struggle . He in no ambigous terms takes a stand on this and says that it is unislamic and moraly wrong 






The sikh community has been assured by all shades of opinion that there right to have dignified life in Kashmir will be protected at ay cost. I hope you understand urdu if not i will translate the interview for you .

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## S_O_C_O_M

*'Kashmiri uprising home-grown, no Pakistan link'​*
* Speakers at policy seminar condemn Indian govt for blaming Pakistan for Kashmir unrest

* Former diplomats, RAW heads call for holding dialogue with Kashmiri leaders

By Iftikhar Gilani

NEW DELHI: Former high-ranking Indian officials and experts on Friday described the current unrest in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) as "home-grown anger" against mis-governance. They also expressed dismay at the attempts by "a section in the Indian government and media" for blaming Pakistan and militant groups for the agitation.

The meeting, conducted under the Chatham House Rule (where you can report, but cannot quote speakers), called for dealing with the protesters in IHK by providing "justice and self-respect" to people, coupled with the removal of IHK Chief Minister Omar Abdullah to create conditions for a dialogue with "moderate separatists". 

The meeting, organised by the Observer Research Foundation (ORF), also suggested addressing the "sentimental side" of the protesting Kashmiris, besides seriously considering granting autonomy to the state, but only if it is "feasible under realistic parameters".

The meeting was attended by former IHK governor Girish Chandra Saxena , former chiefs of the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) AS Dulat, TV Rajeswar, Vikram Sood, author Prem Shankar Jha, Indian parliament member HK Dua, security experts, Kashmiri representatives and journalists covering the IHK situation.

The meeting also suggested setting up a panel, headed by former supreme court judges, to address the issue of autonomy for Kashmiris. The meeting also called for appointing a former diplomat to negotiate with Kashmiri leaders over the issue.

Noting that New Delhi had been holding dialogue with Kashmiri leaders even during 'bad times' in the past, the experts questioned the Congress-led government decision to reverse that policy. "If the Indian state does not know when to speak and whom to speak to, then something is terribly wrong with it," said an expert, who has been associated with talks with Kashmiri leaders since 1990s.

Another expert pointed out that most of the moderate leaders were in jail, while militants were trying to take over the situation." If you won't talk to moderate (leaders), then hardliners will take over," he pointed out. It was suggested that the Indian government should recreate conditions to resume the talks urgently because "the people who are protesting are no more political activists or religious leaders, but young men and women".

The speakers also expressed their surprise over why there had been no political response from the National Conference so far, which, they said, had won all the state assembly and parliamentary seats from Srinagar. "Why was the Central Reserve Police Force deployed in Srinagar to fight off stone-pelters, while its original role is to assist the state police?" one of the speakers said. "If I was the commander-in-chief, I will hire a truck and load it with all the stones lying in the open," another speaker said.

The experts said a huge divide and lack of trust had developed between New Delhi and IHK after the state was declined autonomy.

There was also a strong view that the Congress Party should "keep away" from sharing power in IHK. Some experts suggested a change of government in IHK, as the present chief minister had failed to provide effective governance.


Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

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## EjazR

civfanatic said:


> Ejaz , I know Aditya koul very well and his association Roots in Kashmir and panun kashmir which are like kashmiri franchise of RSS and VHP . But that is not the main point . The main point is nationalist aspiration of Kashmir if kashmiri pandits are not comfortable with that in ok but they can't have a veto over our aspirations . Isn't it selfish on thier part to demand that 97% of population toe thier line ?



You are saying 97% population but where did you get these numbers from. You cant restrict it to just the valley. You have to include people from the entire historical state of J&K. The Gujjars, Jammu Ladakh Pakistani Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan. In these respets the valley represents around a third of the entire population. 33% of the population can't veto 66%. Besides UN resolutions have defined the border of the historical state of J&K. It doesnt look at the problem as just the valley issue but the entire J&K state.

I don't know much about Panun Kashmir, but I can understand that you look at them like RSS/VHP because of them highlighting the Pandits HR violations issues, maybe agressively. Similarly you should understand why some Pandits would look at those who aggressively seek a creation of "Islamic state of Kashmir" as TTP or Taliban clones.


Both of the worldviews are not correct but they feed each other. The stereotypes need to broken and that can happen only when aggressive rhetoric is put aside and rational talks take place.



civfanatic said:


> I can't say anything about it ,it is for other regions to decide for themselves whether they are ok with status quo or not . Kashmir is not and i hope it is clear in India . Kashmir wants freedom and that means right to choose b/w India , pakistan or independence and it is too early to call what would be final disposition and whether that would be viable or not .



That is what you need to decide for yourslf as well. By going throguht the two most extensive and impartial surveys done. It is clear that only the valley wants independence and it ranges between 70-90%. But even muslim majority districts of Jammu or Kargil are majority pro-India. 

If just going by the sentiment of the people, the valley along is made independent, do you honestly think it can follow an indendent foreign or military policy being on the border of three nuclear states. If either one of the countries don't influence it. 

In China, you have an ideology where religion is supressed and children under 18 are not even allowed to attend mosques. Unfortunate as it is, in Pakistan people area actually afraid to even go to their mosques.

There is no doubt that the HR violations the presence of troops and CRPF in populated areas should be done away with. And if you look at the situation pre-1988. This was the case. So there is no reason why troop and CRPF presence can be finished completely. Ofcourse at the end of the day it is for the Kashmiris, Jamuites, Ladakhis to decide and to develop a consensus among them

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## Hulk

Wonder how only Pakistan news paper gets such news?


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## S_O_C_O_M

indianrabbit said:


> Wonder how only Pakistan news paper gets such news?



Wonder why Indian newspaper do not report such news?

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## EjazR

civfanatic said:


> The sikh community has been assured by all shades of opinion that there right to have dignified life in Kashmir will be protected at ay cost. I hope you understand urdu if not i will translate the interview for you .



I will not comment on the authenticity of the current issue as I have no independant way of confirming it. But was there not a case of youths recently attacking a sikh youth who refused to raise "pro-freedom" slogans and had his hair cut off ? It happened in the current agitation.

The reason is that even though the "leaders" of the movement might keep asseting it. The policies are so divisive that the foot soldiers in the heat of the moment will take out their anger even on innocent people because of the divisive policies.


Let me give another example, the RSS always keeps insisting that they are not against Muslims and that they have no issues with Islam as a religion. But the divisive policies eventually led to cadres in their group committing terrorists acts. The Abhinav Bharat group is the most recent example.

So what the "leader" says and what the foot soldiers do may not necessarily be in sync when the ideology you preach is divisive. RSS want a politcal-Hinduistic version implemented. While Geelani and Co. want a politcal-Islamists vision implemented. 

And IMHO both visions are bound to fail.


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## RamGorur

civfanatic said:


> Legality is hardly the issue , the morality is . The bottomline of all UN resolutions on kashmir is an that Kashmir is a dispute and needs to be resolved by allowing self determination in J&k . This is substance and all else is froth . Whether India accepts this or not hardly changes moral countours of Right of self determination of Kashmir .


So you have changed your mind. The right to self-determination is now no longer a matter of law or resolutions at UN, but is a merely a matter of morality. Very fine. 

What are the moral contours of Kashmiris right to self determination? Or, to rephrase that, what gives Kashmiris the moral right to claim right to self-determination? Obviously you can no longer make reference to UN and its resolutions. If morality is the issue, then whether or not it is codified at UN or elsewhere, makes no difference, if such codification is not binding like law.

However, as an aside, I may remind you, that even the UN resolutions do not give an absolute right to self determination to Kashmiris, if at all UN resolutions under Chapter VI give rise to any right. It is conditional.


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## arihant

So, from point of Geelani it were Indian RAW Agency who displaced Kashmiri Pandits from Valley. So genions concern by Pundits brother Geelani.


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## EjazR

*Threat to Sikhs unites Hurriyat, politicos - India - DNA*

The anonymous threat to Sikhs to join protests or leave Kashmir has united separatists and mainstream politicians.

&#8220;Unidentified people have sent notices to Sikhs. I have told them Islam doesn&#8217;t allow it. Islam preaches respect for all religions and protection of all faiths. These miscreants are people who are against our movement,&#8221; Syed Ali Shah Geelani, chairman of the hardline faction of Hurriyat Conference, said.

For the past few days, Sikhs living in different parts of the Valley have been receiving threat letters in gurdwaras and households, triggering panic among the community.

&#8220;Some miscreants sent anonymous letters to our gurdwaras and homes, threatening that Sikhs join protests or leave Kashmir. We ignored it initially, but when letters were dropped in gurdwaras we started worrying. There are several agencies and elements active in Kashmir, anybody can be behind this act,&#8221; Jagmohan Singh Raina, president of All Parties Sikh Coordination Committee, said.

A panicked state government said it was looking into the issue and trying to expose the miscreants. &#8220;We may have differences with separatists but on this issue, we are one. Muslims of Kashmir are living in harmony with Sikhs. However, there may be miscreants and mischief-mongers. We are looking into this issue with all seriousness and will identify and expose these elements,&#8221; Ali Mohammad Sagar, law and parliamentary affairs minister, said.

The threat comes in less than a month after miscreants chopped off hair of a Sikh youth at Malangpora in south Kashmir&#8217;s Pulwama district.

Harmeet Singh aka Mithun Singh, an employee of Border Roads Organisation, was stopped by a group of miscreants near Malangpora when he was on his way to market on July 28. He was allegedly asked to raise pro-freedom slogans and later beaten up in full public view. His hair was also allegedly chopped off, triggering anger among Sikhs in both the Valley and Jammu, police said.

There are 70,000 Sikhs living in 121 villages of the Valley. Sikhs and Muslims have traditionally lived in harmony in Kashmir. Despite the massacre of 34 Sikhs in Chittisinghpora village of Anantnag district on March 20, 2000, the community did not leave the Valley like Kashmiri pandits.

&#8220;We are framing mohalla [ward] committees with Muslim brothers. We are also calling a conference of our community to dispel the threat,&#8221; a Sikh leader said.

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## arihant

BATMAN said:


> Divide and Rule....
> Where was this sify news when Kashmiri children were tortured by Indian security forces???



I suppose Internet was not their when Lakhs of Kashmiri Pundit migrated from their own homeland as well got killed who refuse to migrate.


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## Hulk

Hatred is always easy to spread. Take an example when any government is at power it is easy by the opposition to tell they are bad, when opposition comes to power they can't do any better. How many people use their brain in such cases? It is easy to blame armed forces, no other armed forces in similar condition has done any better. Armed forces came in because of terrorism and before 89 there was no such thing proves our intention.


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## S_O_C_O_M

BENNY said:


> *Kashmiri students divided on 'azadi'*




PDF members divided on ANY news source by india.


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## SpArK

S_O_C_O_M said:


> PDF members divided on ANY news source by india.



The last post of urs was a thread started with Indian sources, not to tell the other threads started on u on basis of Indian orange medias...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/70023-indian-men-use-skin-whitening-products-racism-fashion.html#post1082305

Is it a selective process as to choose which suits u more??

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## SpArK

The news is about its citizens visiting the country capital and voicing their opinion. 

You cant expect that news to be published in other medias for say example a "a Czechoslovakian" news source.

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## Prometheus

lol..............so called freedom fighters are now behind sikhs............

Are they thinking that sikhs gonna leave like Valley Pandits?????

Plz freedom fighters ...........try harder.......sending letters and cutting hairs of sikhs wont gonna work for you.

May be kneeling and begging for support might work

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## Bhairava

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Wonder why Indian newspaper do not report such news?



Simple - because there is no such news.

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## Prometheus

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Wonder why Indian newspaper do not report such news?



we are against fantasy news

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## magg

The entire article is based on fantasy. Read the blogs of Vikram Sood and find out for yourself that he clearly says it is a new strategy of ISI as the world becomes more sensitive to terrorism.


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## TCS

S_O_C_O_M said:


> 'Kashmiri uprising home-grown, no Pakistan link'



*yes angels coming from heaven to did this 

well they also say that david hedley dnt have ISI link ...*

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## civfanatic

RamGorur said:


> So you have changed your mind. The right to self-determination is now no longer a matter of law or resolutions at UN, but is a merely a matter of morality. Very fine.
> 
> What are the moral contours of Kashmiris right to self determination? Or, to rephrase that, what gives Kashmiris the moral right to claim right to self-determination? Obviously you can no longer make reference to UN and its resolutions. If morality is the issue, then whether or not it is codified at UN or elsewhere, makes no difference, if such codification is not binding like law.
> 
> However, as an aside, I may remind you, that even the UN resolutions do not give an absolute right to self determination to Kashmiris, if at all UN resolutions under Chapter VI give rise to any right. It is conditional.



I have not changed my mind . On the contarary I think UN resolutions represent international affirmation of our Right of self determination . Infact RSD is based on principle that every nation has the right to freely decide on its sovereignty and international political status without external compulsion or outside interference. Hence UN resolutions represent the implicit acceptance of Kashmiri Nationhood by International community . From legal pov UN resolutions might not represent much as there is no law over states but from moral pov UN resolutions are implicit implicit acceptance of Kashmiri Nationhood by International community .

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## IndianRobo

civfanatic said:


> You are making a lot of assumptions here and one of them is that sikh community in kashmir is predominantly pro -india . Even if someone agrees with your assumption the moot point is that in demographic terms sikhs are less than 1% of valleys population . They can influence niether political discourse(vis a vis Kashmirs accession to india ) nor a plebicite in kashmir valley



Iam Not Making any assumptions, the news Is about Sikhs threatened by the Militants in the valley, Its You who is assuming Things, I dont need to Justify Anyone about my opinion afterall the News Speaks for me... there is a strong 60,000 Sikhs Living there in the Kashmir, and Ofcourse they are a Hindrance For Your Mass Movement, They Kicked out Kashmiri Pandits and Now In the process of Judging the same fate for the Sikhs in the valley....




civfanatic said:


> This part of your post reflects your hatred for muslims and you can't hide that by accusing us kashmiri muslims as bieng brain washed . Anyone who reads this will understand who is brainwashed and who is not .



I Dont hate Islam, But I hate those who spoil the name of Islam, Like these terrorists who fight in the name of Islam.... The Girl Whom I love and Have relationship for over 5 years is a Muslim, I have seen Islam Through Her Innocence and Love...


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## civfanatic

Gounder said:


> *The same resolutions dont allow you to be independent*.It allows you to only be a part of Pakistan or India.
> 
> You know wat - t*he independence option was dropped at the behest of Pakistan*.!!!
> 
> Guessing from your flag you will choose Pakistan.But Indian canot allow a strategic piece of land for which we have paid a huge price in blood to simply go away so that some separatists are happy.



What UN resolutions mean to us Kashmiris is the acceptance of Kashmiri nationalism and our right to choose future political status of Kashmir without external compulsion or pressure. Other details might need to be revisited but the basic principle from our pov is absolute.




> and the verdict of the CBI was also based on evidence.


Yeah, false and concocted evidence.


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## Hulk

Kashimiri's were not party to UN resolution so they should not talk about UN resolution.
Till 89 I visited Kashmir 10 times lived for months, there was no problem. My uncle was SP Srinagar.
So indication is that people were happy with India. Also in all wars Kashmiri's never revolted why? If they wanted freedom Kargil was best time.

I understand the condition is not very good over there but that is because of militancy. When there is Counter Insergency going on some colateral damage is expected and some of this will be wrong identification and some will be misuse of power's by soilders.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

roach said:


> You poor bleeding heart.
> 
> It's a good policy. Terrorize minorities (Hindus, Sikhs) and ethnically cleanse out the valley, and then say "Oh you poor things, why did you leave?? Tsk, tsk. Bad jihadis!!!"
> 
> Where were you when the Pandits were being driven out of their homes? The poor among them still live in Ghettoes, as refugees all over India. They are (were) Kashmiris too.
> 
> This is the two-nation theory all over again. Muslims Vs the rest.
> 
> Dudes. Wake up. Kashmir is not just a symbol of the country's unity, It is also a huge STRATEGIC asset adjoining China, Pakistan and Central Asia.
> Kashmir will never be an independent country, at least not for the two next generations.



I think you completly missed out the point of my post. Also, I'd like to point out where India was when the Muslims of Kashmir were being violently oppressed on a larger scale, you 'invaded' a land upon the request of a mass murdering tyrant.


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## Bhairava

civfanatic said:


> What UN resolutions mean to us Kashmiris is the acceptance of Kashmiri nationalism and our right to choose future political status of Kashmir without external compulsion or pressure. Other details might need to be revisited but the basic principle from our pov is absolute.



Hoe can you suddenly change your stance now.?

The UNSC resolutions that you guys are so after doesnt allow you to be independent.

Now tell me *how can India grant you independence if the UNSC resolutions doesnt have any option of Independence*.?





civfanatic said:


> Yeah, false and concocted evidence.



And how do you decided that.?




Azad Kashmir said:


> I think you completly missed out the point of my post. Also, I'd like to point out *where India was when the Muslims of Kashmir were being violently oppressed on a larger scale*, you 'invaded' a land upon the request of a mass murdering tyrant.



FYI there was no India at that time -there were only about 565 independent pricely states and your Kashmir was one of them.So your question itself is wrong.

And please the oppression of Muslims in the past(even if there was one such) dosnt give you any license to take revenge now.

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## arihant

This is not new from Geelani and Seperatist. 

Let me remind you one of those slogan by seperatist in the early 1990.

*Kashmir me rehna hain to Allah-o-Akbar Kehna Hai *

Some of the tapped slogans repeatedly spoken out by separatist.

*On the night of January 19, all mosques in the valley began to broadcast from the loudspeakers that are used normally for prayer calls, a taped message which ran non- stop twenty four hours for three consecutive days: *

*The marauders played dire warnings from mosques which pierced each nerve of anybody with a Hindu name. As the sun turned pale, the exhortations became louder, and three taped slogans repeatedly played their terror: 'Kashmir mei agar rehna hai, Allah-O-Akbar kehna hai' (If you want to stay in Kashmir, you have to say Allah is great); 'Yahan kya chalega, Nizam-e-Mustafa' (What do we want here? Rule of Shariah); 'Asi gachchi Pakistan, Batao roas te Batanev san' (We want Pakistan along with Hindu women, but without their men).*

*Kashmir kya banega - Pakistan (What will Kashmir be - Pakistan) *

*Battav - ya raliv, ya chaliv, natte galiv (Hindus/Pandits, either convert, leave, or get killed).*

*Zalimo O, Kafiro, Kashmir hamara chhod do (Ye cruel Kafirs (infidels) vacate our Kashmir) *

*Arise ye, fearless Momins (What will have sway here - Prophet's governance)*

For Russia has lost the race,
Now the sword hangs on India's neck
Now it is Kashmir's turn.

*Islam hamara maksad hai
Kuran hamara dastur hai
Jehad hamara rasta hai.*
(Islam is our destination
Koran is our constitution
Jehad is our way.)

*Hamein kya chahye, Nizame Mustafa
Kashmere main kya chalaiga, Nizame Mustafa
Hindustan mein kya chalaiga, Nizame Mustafa*

(What do we need - Prophet's governance. What will
have sway in Kashmir - Prophet's governance.
What will have sway in India - Prophet's governance.

*Ganga-Jamuna mein aag lagayenge*

(We will destroy Ganga and Yamuna)

1. Headlines from local newspaper "Alsafa", Srinagar on April 14, 1990: "Kashmiri Pandits responsible for duress against Muslims should leave the valley within two days." 

2. Press release of Hizbul Mujahideen faction of Kashmiri terrorists published in the morning edition of Urdu daily "Aftab" on 1/4/1990. The headlines proclaimed: "The aim of present struggle is the supremacy of Islam in Kashmir, in all walks of life and nothing else. Anyone who puts any hurdle in our way will be annihilated." 

3. Hand bill found pasted on the doors of Kashmiri Hindu Homes and the streets of Srinagar by Allah Tigers, yet another terrorist outfit: "Awake and arise Muslims, Run Away Infidels, Jihad is ahead." 

So, surely they want Kashmir to become Muslim State in Pakistan. India will never tolerate any type such act which would lead a secular state in to another Pakistan type act of 1947.

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## magg

> What UN resolutions mean to us Kashmiris is the acceptance of Kashmiri nationalism and our right to choose future political status of Kashmir without external compulsion or pressure. Other details might need to be revisited but the basic principle from our pov is absolute.



You didn't get it. When Lord Mountbatten showed the final draft ,of giving independence to India, to the Congress , it had the provision for each ruler to choose 3 options. They were India, Pak or Independence. Mr. Nehru immediately rejected it as it would have broke India into not just two nations but tens of different nations, who would have remain at war with each other as also remained subjected to British support for most things. Thus logically Britishers would have still be in control of the pre-partition India. 

Mr. Nehru immediately told Lord Mountbatten that it is not acceptable as the final draft should lead to only two nations and made sure that it is Pakistan that break away while India remains united. Thus Kashmir never could have become an independent state as it was against the spirit of the final draft of India's independence from the British Kingdom. 

The choice was to be made by the rulers and they did that. The Kashmiri ruler chose India over Pak and no other decision could have been made. The Kashmiris fought valiantly against the marauding PAK army in both 47' and 65' and this reflected their choice of sticking with India over Pak. Now what has happened is that Pak by using psychological war and terrorism has corrupted the minds of the young people. 

And thus the decisions or aspirations of 10&#37; people could not be made a case to say that the whole of Kashmir wants independence. The case is crystal clear India saved the Kashmiris from the humiliation and oppression they would have felt on becoming a part of Pak as are the Baluchs, sindhis and the Pashtuns facing.


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## muse

Indian forces in captive Kashmir are under heavy pressure internally and externally, and so something must be created to relieve some of the pressure in international circles - What better than an anonomous letter that will feed the fears - Islam, Muslims, Insurgency - so feed away, it's a "all you can eat" feast.

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## arihant

muse said:


> Indian forces in captive Kashmir are under heavy pressure internally and externally, and so something must be created to relieve some of the pressure in international circles - What better than an anonomous letter that will feed the fears - Islam, Muslims, Insurgency - so feed away, it's a "all you can eat" feast.



What about same letters sent in 1990s. They proved to be true latter and what happen almost all ethic Hindu Pundits leaving from 5000's of years were forced to go out of their own land.


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## Prometheus

muse said:


> Indian forces in captive Kashmir are under heavy pressure internally and externally, and so something must be created to relieve some of the pressure in international circles - What better than an anonomous letter that will feed the fears - Islam, Muslims, Insurgency - so feed away, it's a "all you can eat" feast.



India got no pressure "externally" not even from UN or US or Russia or EU.

Plz support ur claim of external pressure on New Delhi. 

and as of the condition in valley..............New delhi can live with it.

and about fear of Islam.................dude now dont say that Islam got a loving history with sikhs

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## muse

India appear to be under great pressure, the UN itself has expressed growing concern - 
Maybe Hindus can claim a "loving history" with Sikhs (Ask Indira Gandhi) - 

But reasonable observers will agree that an anonomoujs letter, feeding fears, particularly when Sikhs are little involved in the suppression in captive Kashmir, seems "contrived" - a little too convenient.

But, you don't have to be persuaded, it's nothing you need to get tied up knots about.


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## Hulk

Thanks Arihant for post number 126. I was unaware of this, it was eye opener. People who have threatened minorities like that cannot claim to be innocent. No matter what the cost is and casualty we should never leave Kashmir. These guys will make it Afghanistan and then we will have to face that to.
I lost all sympathy for Kashmiri's their behaviour is inhuman and like Taliban.


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## arihant

indianrabbit said:


> Thanks Arihant for post number 126. I was unaware of this, it was eye opener. People who have threatened minorities like that cannot claim to be innocent. No matter what the cost is and casualty we should never leave Kashmir. These guys will make it Afghanistan and then we will have to face that to.
> I lost all sympathy for Kashmiri's their behaviour is inhuman and like Taliban.



Sorry but labeling this to Kashmiri is wrong. All things in 1990's started Pakistani Terrorist openly advertised all the things in the paper and masjid. I would not call it fault of Kashmiris. Same thing happen in Babri Masjid, a act of few VHP gave damn our own tolerance but still stand firm that what ever happen was wrong.

And about what I posted is publicly known but it never appeared more in Media because it was against Minority and who cares all things pundits about. I also came to know about this issue when I was in Kashmir few months ago and met one family who were once farmer (hindu) are now doing job of shoe rubbing. I was there and listen his full story and got known about all those facts. Tried to got on Internet and found almost everything what he told. I can say I found even more drastic.

As far as my concerns are there, I never see Indian Media doing fair job to minority. Our Gurus (who always walk rather than riding anything) are being killed by plot through accidents but still we don't throw stones or so because this is against our own religion. We will fight the judicial with the honesty rather than doing act of cowardly throwing stones.


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## muse

> Plz let me intrupt............UN chief never issued any statement



I don't recall make any statement about the UN chief - But certainoly Pakistani origin men and women, do make statements on behalf of the UN.

BTW, that's a painitng -- in other words, seems to me you are willing to resort to less than intellectual honesty - which tells me that something about the issue is rather dear to you - You are not by any chance the "anonomous author" of the "anonomous letter" are you?


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## magg

> I don't recall make any statement about the UN chief - But certainoly Pakistani origin men and women, do make statements on behalf of the UN.
> 
> BTW, that's a painitng -- in other words, seems to me you are willing to resort to less than intellectual honesty - which tells me that something about the issue is rather dear to you - You are not by any chance the "anonomous author" of the "anonomous letter" are you?


What do you want to say ? Be clear, the above quoted text looks incoherent.


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## RamGorur

civfanatic said:


> I have not changed my mind .


It appears that you haven't been able to make up your mind, if its UN that gives the right, or is it morality. Remember the original query was _how_ did Kashmiris earn their right to self determination. That continues to remain unanswered.


> On the contarary I think UN resolutions represent international affirmation of our Right of self determination .


That is a deliberate, but convenient, misinterpretation of UN resolutions regarding Kashmir. If you carefully read the resolution of 13th August, 1947, which both the countries had accepted and formed the cornerstone for every subsequent resolutions, then you will come across Part III of the resolution which states:

_*The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan reaffirm their wish* that the future status of the State of Jammu and Kashmir shall be determined in accordance with the will of the people and to that end, upon acceptance of the Truce Agreement both Governments agree to enter into consultations with the Commission to determine fair and equitable conditions whereby such free expression will be assured._

It is not an affirmation of Kashmiris right to self-determination, but only recognition by the international community of how both the countries *wished* to resolve their own dispute. By no stretch of the most fertile mind can this be construed as international communitys affirmation of Kashmiris right to self-determination. If instead of plebiscite, India and Pakistan had decided to settle it over a game of Polo, even that would have been vetted by UN.


> Infact RSD is based on principle that every nation has the right to freely decide on its sovereignty and international political status without external compulsion or outside interference.


Yes, but only in case of colonialism. 



> Hence UN resolutions represent the implicit acceptance of Kashmiri Nationhood by International community.


Nothing can be further from the truth. UN resolutions make it very much explicit that Kashmiris are a part of either Indian or Pakistani nationhood. There is no such thing as Kashmiri Nationhood and hence, thanks to Pakistan, independence is not an option as per UN resolutions.


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## civfanatic

> *Who Is Asking The Sikhs In Kashmir To Convert? *By Farzana Versey
> 
> 20 August, 2010
> Countercurrents.org
> 
> Has anyone asked this crucial question? Before it can be voiced in cogent terms, the government swings into action to protect the Sikhs. Let us not forget that the Congress party had done no such protecting of the community in the capital city and the rest of the country in 1984. Those who were indicted and held responsible for the carnage managed to hold important portfolios and stay in power for years. People are still waiting for compensation.
> 
> Therefore, the central governments prompt action  and it is rather surprising that not only does it come from the home minister, but also the finance minister and the external affairs minister  reveals that it has found a new ruse to deal with the peoples movement in the Valley.
> 
> Unlike the Kashmiri Pandits who were systematically made to flee by vested interests, the Sikhs are not an extremely wealthy or powerful group* and decided to stay back. As the largest minority group comprising 60,000 people, they faced problems just as the other locals did*. Now there is news that they have received letters asking them to join the protest or convert to Islam. Some of these letters state: When you are enjoying the joys here, why cant you share the grief and sorrow of Kashmiris as well? We know you are afraid of bullets. Hold protests inside gurudwaras or leave Kashmir.
> 
> In these notes there is no mention of conversion. There is a call for joining forces and fighting in their own religious places. The coordinator of the All Party Sikh Coordination Committee (ASCC), Jagmohan Singh Raina, said, Our community members have received unsigned letters at various places. Some letters have asked Sikhs to embrace Islam.
> 
> He said his people would not leave and much rather fight the evil designs. It must be noted that these are unsigned letters. Whose evil designs are these? If members of the community do decide to convert, will it not alert the authorities? Will their converting to Islam not become an even greater hindrance to the civilian war taking place?
> 
> Why did Raina choose to appeal to separatist organisations like the JKLF, the Hurriyat and rather incongruously the ***-based United Jihad Council to ensure peace and amity? Why did he and his organisation not address the issue to the chief minister Omar Abdullah?
> 
> The issue reached Parliament and, as reports say, the government held out an assurance that Sikhs had nothing to fear in Kashmir in the wake of reported threats to the minority community from militants to convert to Islam or leave the Valley. There is no mention of the letters that asked them to join the protest movement. The NDA members, always on the lookout for such communal concerns, had to be placated; Chidambaram told them, nobody will be allowed to harm the Sikh community.
> 
> Indeed, the community ought to be protected but this verbal heroism is senseless when the local population is being harmed everyday. Has there been such immediate sympathy expressed for the ongoing war and killings of civilians and security personnel? A shoe thrown at Omar Abdullah gets more mileage than the street protests.
> 
> *Pranab Mukherjee became magnanimous: "Not only Muslims of Kashmir but the whole of India would rise as one to stand by the Sikh community. When was the last time the whole of India stood as one to stand by a community, and how could it when the establishment orchestrates such harm?*Has anybody informed the whole of India about where those letters have come from? Why did the Sikh representative in Kashmir talk to the militant groups? Why was the *** organisation informed? Assuming these threats are coming from the Pakistani side, why would they be interested in peace and amity? It just does not sound right.
> 
> *While Syed Ali Shah Geelani has called these letters fake and had on an earlier occasion dramatically stated that the Sikhs could not be forced to join the protests and harming them would be like inflicting a wound on his body, it conveys the impression that his body has a great deal of importance. And if the JKLF and the Hurriyat do have a say in every such matter, then it begs the query as to what is the status of an elected government in the state?*
> 
> It is a known fact that when militant groups send out threats, they like to flash their credentials. Since this is an upsurge from the ground level, it would be presumed that the locals are sending those letters. This is damaging to them as well as to what they have held important all along  the coexistence with minorities. This is reminiscent of the planted fliers posted on walls during the exodus of Pandits.
> 
> This time both the central and state governments do not know how to deal with the uprising in the Valley. Omar Abdullah can only give assurances when he knows well that there is nothing he can do because there is nothing he has done to salvage the situation. The separatist organisations are also riding on the wave rather than taking responsibility for it.
> 
> Instead of assurances in Parliament and smart talk, the government should find out where the mischief is taking place and the origin of those letters. The Sikhs who have received them should file FIRs in the police station. That will be the first step towards getting the government involved rather than the government just standing from afar and issuing homilies.
> 
> There is far more here then appears evident and the shoe could point in any direction. Its time for the establishment to talk on its feet.
> 
> Farzana Versey is a Mumbai-based author-columnist. She can be reached at kaaghaz.kalam@gmail.com



Who Is Asking The Sikhs In Kashmir To Convert? By Farzana Versey


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

RamGorur said:


> It appears that you haven't been able to make up your mind, if its UN that gives the right, or is it morality. Remember the original query was _how_ did Kashmiris earn their right to self determination. That continues to remain unanswered.


It is both a moral and promised right, by the UN and India herself. India, in invading and occupying Jungadh and Hyderabad (the former after the ruler had acceded to Pakistan) chose herself to argue that the plebiscites India conducted in those territories on her own legitimized the annexation of those territories.

Therefore, India has herself made clear the legal and moral validity of self-determination through her actions and commitments.


> That is a deliberate, but convenient, misinterpretation of UN resolutions regarding Kashmir. If you carefully read the resolution of 13th August, 1947, which both the countries had accepted and formed the cornerstone for every subsequent resolutions, then you will come across Part III of the resolution which states:
> 
> _*The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan reaffirm their wish* that the future status of the State of Jammu and Kashmir shall be determined in accordance with the will of the people and to that end, upon acceptance of the Truce Agreement both Governments agree to enter into consultations with the Commission to determine fair and equitable conditions whereby such free expression will be assured._
> 
> It is not an affirmation of Kashmiris right to self-determination, but only recognition by the international community of how both the countries *wished* to resolve their own dispute. By no stretch of the most fertile mind can this be construed as international communitys affirmation of Kashmiris right to self-determination. If instead of plebiscite, India and Pakistan had decided to settle it over a game of Polo, even that would have been vetted by UN.


The UN millenium declaration endorses, 'the right to self-determination of peoples which remain under colonial domination and foreign occupation.' That in conjunction with the UN resolutions, and India's own actions and commitments with respect to J&K, Junagadh and Hyderabad, provides an affirmation of the Kashmiri 'Right to self-determination'.


> Yes, but only in case of colonialism.


And foreign occupation.

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## dabong1

Karthic Sri said:


> That u can very well try and ur the most welcome to do so..after all we also want to finish this issue once and for all
> 
> But dont raise the bogey of UNSC resolutions,plebiscite..etc.



Fine......Just as long as you dont "raise the bogey" of cross border terrorism,pak based militants ect.


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## dabong1

Karthic Sri said:


> Agno i said previoulsy...we suceeded in Junagadh,Hyderabad...u failed in a similar objective in Kashmir.
> 
> How can u blame India for ur in-efficiency??
> 
> And the UNSC resolutions are *NON-BINDING-RESOLUTIONS*.



All United Nations General Assembly resolutions that are not about matters internal to the UN (such as the structure of the UN or the creation of UN agencies) are inherently and explicitly (in the UN Charter) non-binding.
Non-binding resolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Guynextdoor

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It is both a moral and promised right, by the UN and India herself. India, in invading and occupying Jungadh and Hyderabad (the former after the ruler had acceded to Pakistan) chose herself to argue that the plebiscites India conducted in those territories on her own legitimized the annexation of those territories.
> 
> Therefore, India has herself made clear the legal and moral validity of self-determination through her actions and commitments.
> 
> The UN millenium declaration endorses, 'the right to self-determination of peoples which remain under colonial domination and foreign occupation.' That in conjunction with the UN resolutions, and India's own actions and commitments with respect to J&K, Junagadh and Hyderabad, provides an affirmation of the Kashmiri 'Right to self-determination'.
> 
> And foreign occupation.


There are no 'moral' or 'promised right'. As per the deal you too were supposed to wthdraw your forces. We didn't see you do that did we?

The Nawabs of Junagarh and the nizams of hyderabad were irrelevant thorns in the process of history and stumbling blocks to a vision of greater India. What did the Nizam of Hyderabad have to offer? NOTHING. 

I'm NOT being racist when I make the following point- it's the truth: He was 
Stingy (he used to collect wads and wads of currency and stack them in sacks), dirty (never used to take a bath) and Lazy- the people of India can't cut deals with people like him- Our destiny is far too serious an affair. He has NO RIGHT to rule anyway. He was not democratically elected, he was just a continuing vestige of a midieval system that had managed to survive into the modern world. We just corrected that anamoly. Before your rule, you need to deserve to rule. And the kings and princes we took out were people who didn't. The family of patiala, on the other hand, took this idea seriously and so we have people like Amarinder Singh still ruling punjab AFTER securing the mandate of his people through an election.

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## Bhairava

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It is both a moral and promised right, by the UN and India herself. India, in invading and occupying Jungadh and Hyderabad (the former after the ruler had acceded to Pakistan) chose herself to argue that the plebiscites India conducted in those territories on her own legitimized the annexation of those territories.
> 
> Therefore, India has herself made clear the legal and moral validity of self-determination through her actions and commitments.
> 
> The UN millenium declaration endorses, 'the right to self-determination of peoples which remain under colonial domination and foreign occupation.' That in conjunction with the UN resolutions, and India's own actions and commitments with respect to J&K, Junagadh and Hyderabad, provides an affirmation of the Kashmiri 'Right to self-determination'.
> 
> And foreign occupation.




Lets not go into the nuances and minute details of the UN resolution as bo*th sides can find enough clauses to support their respective stands* with convinience.

Tell me one thing - Is not the demand of Kashmiris for independence in conflict with the _UN resolutions which do not grant independence_ as an option.??

I also ought to remind everyone that the _Indepencence option was dropped at the behest of Pakistan_.

So with such a basic conflict of interests how can any one move forward.?


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## Bhairava

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> to hindustan:
> 
> fix your internal insurgencies, so that when Kashmir DOES get independence from hindustan -- there will be no need to worry about further mutinies and insurrections within -whether it's ethnic bengalis or tamils or even the communist naxals



*Ethinic Bengalis* - are you talking about India or Pakistan?

*Tamils* - I dont know what to say to this .I am a Tamil and above that a proud Indian.

*Naxals* - Serioulsy they are a bigger threat to Pakistan than the democratically elected soft government.So pray the naxals dont come to rule Delhi.





Abu Zolfiqar said:


> It is a SHAME:
> 
> --that Sri Nagar, one of the paradises of the subcontinent, is unfortunatly bleeding
> 
> --that there is presence of (unwelcomed) occupational forces which are 700,000 in number; making it the most militirised place in the world
> 
> as a result, our Kashmiri people are living in an open prison
> 
> 
> --that in order to get a medicine and other essential in occupied Kashmir, one has to pass through manned checkpoints where he/she is stopped no matter if they are young or old; and asked ****** questions and if they (occupational forces) wishes they can take a person away for interrogation for a mere suspicion (negates the whole ''integral'' and ''democratic'' nonsense)



Nothing but propaganda in which not even an iota is the ground reality.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> --that tiny pandit minority in Kashmir ditched the land overnight by the intructions of then Governor (and for purely economic reasons) and then hindustanys will talk about ''pandit genocide'' ... total garbage,* negligible *propaganda



This post was posted by another member Arihant in other thread.For your reading and then decide if they left for economic reasons.



arihant said:


> T
> Let me remind you one of those slogan by seperatist in the early 1990.
> 
> *Kashmir me rehna hain to Allah-o-Akbar Kehna Hai *
> 
> Some of the tapped slogans repeatedly spoken out by separatist.
> 
> *On the night of January 19, all mosques in the valley began to broadcast from the loudspeakers that are used normally for prayer calls, a taped message which ran non- stop twenty four hours for three consecutive days: *
> 
> *The marauders played dire warnings from mosques which pierced each nerve of anybody with a Hindu name. As the sun turned pale, the exhortations became louder, and three taped slogans repeatedly played their terror: 'Kashmir mei agar rehna hai, Allah-O-Akbar kehna hai' (If you want to stay in Kashmir, you have to say Allah is great); 'Yahan kya chalega, Nizam-e-Mustafa' (What do we want here? Rule of Shariah); 'Asi gachchi Pakistan, Batao roas te Batanev san' (We want Pakistan along with Hindu women, but without their men).*
> 
> *Kashmir kya banega - Pakistan (What will Kashmir be - Pakistan) *
> 
> *Battav - ya raliv, ya chaliv, natte galiv (Hindus/Pandits, either convert, leave, or get killed).*
> 
> *Zalimo O, Kafiro, Kashmir hamara chhod do (Ye cruel Kafirs (infidels) vacate our Kashmir) *
> 
> *Arise ye, fearless Momins (What will have sway here - Prophet's governance)*
> 
> For Russia has lost the race,
> Now the sword hangs on India's neck
> Now it is Kashmir's turn.
> 
> *Islam hamara maksad hai
> Kuran hamara dastur hai
> Jehad hamara rasta hai.*
> (Islam is our destination
> Koran is our constitution
> Jehad is our way.)
> 
> *Hamein kya chahye, Nizame Mustafa
> Kashmere main kya chalaiga, Nizame Mustafa
> Hindustan mein kya chalaiga, Nizame Mustafa*
> 
> (What do we need - Prophet's governance. What will
> have sway in Kashmir - Prophet's governance.
> What will have sway in India - Prophet's governance.
> 
> *Ganga-Jamuna mein aag lagayenge*
> 
> (We will destroy Ganga and Yamuna)
> 
> 1. Headlines from local newspaper "Alsafa", Srinagar on April 14, 1990: "Kashmiri Pandits responsible for duress against Muslims should leave the valley within two days."
> 
> 2. Press release of Hizbul Mujahideen faction of Kashmiri terrorists published in the morning edition of Urdu daily "Aftab" on 1/4/1990. The headlines proclaimed: "The aim of present struggle is the supremacy of Islam in Kashmir, in all walks of life and nothing else. Anyone who puts any hurdle in our way will be annihilated."
> 
> 3. Hand bill found pasted on the doors of Kashmiri Hindu Homes and the streets of Srinagar by Allah Tigers, yet another terrorist outfit: "Awake and arise Muslims, Run Away Infidels, Jihad is ahead."
> 
> So, surely they want Kashmir to become Muslim State in Pakistan. India will never tolerate any type such act which would lead a secular state in to another Pakistan type act of 1947.


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## Bhairava

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Nothing happened to the NLI - speculative death tolls from various figures looking to score political points do not pass for actual casualty figures.



Is it.?



> Kargil War, India vs. Pakistan
> 1999/7/6 CNN: 1,100
> Ploughshares 2000, citing
> US State Department
> Indian soldiers: 524
> Pakistani soldiers: 696 (early, partial)
> *InterPress Service: > 2,000 troops k*



Link -point#119





AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Most credible reports place Pakistani casualties at a few hundred - given Indian forces were at a disadvantage trying to regain the heights Indian casualties would be many times higher given equal quality of training and motivation on both sides. You simply cannot overlook the basic constraints facing an offensive force trying to retake higher ground (and this ground was very high and very remote).



please share your credible sources.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Guynextdoor said:


> There are no 'moral' or 'promised right'. As per the deal you too were supposed to wthdraw your forces. We didn't see you do that did we?


Read the UNSC resolutions thread, and the excerpt posted above by RamGorur:
_"upon acceptance of the Truce Agreement both Governments agree to enter into consultations with the Commission to determine fair and equitable conditions whereby such free expression will be assured."​_Consultations were entered into, various plans were proposed by the various commissions, and India rejected them. There was no unilateral obligation upon Pakistan to withdraw its troops - had there been, then there would have been no need for the various UN commissions that tried to arrive at demilitarization and plebiscite proposals.


> The Nawabs of Junagarh and the nizams of hyderabad were irrelevant thorns in the process of history and stumbling blocks to a vision of greater India. What did the Nizam of Hyderabad have to offer? NOTHING.


That is irrelevant to the legal and moral case, with regards to self-determination, that India herself established and advocated in invading, occupying and annexing the three territories, through her commitments and actions, as explained in my last post.


> I'm NOT being racist when I make the following point- it's the truth: He was
> Stingy (he used to collect wads and wads of currency and stack them in sacks), dirty (never used to take a bath) and Lazy- the people of India can't cut deals with people like him- Our destiny is far too serious an affair. He has NO RIGHT to rule anyway. He was not democratically elected, he was just a continuing vestige of a midieval system that had managed to survive into the modern world. We just corrected that anamoly. Before your rule, you need to deserve to rule. And the kings and princes we took out were people who didn't. The family of patiala, on the other hand, took this idea seriously and so we have people like Amarinder Singh still ruling punjab AFTER securing the mandate of his people through an election.


Aside from my previous paragraph on why this argument is irrelevant in the context of self-determination, please also look into the history of the dictator Maharajah's rule in J&K, and his extremely discriminatory treatment of his Muslim subjects, and how that discrimination sparked a revolt in Kashmir before any Tribal invasion from Pakistan took place.

Given that your argument of 'he had no right to rule since he was not democratically elected' seeks to imply that neither accession to Pakistan by the Nawab of Junagadh nor the desire to remain independent by the rule of Hyderabad, have any validity, then so to does the accession of the dictator Maharajah of J&K not have any validity, which brings us back to the principle and means used by India herself in legitimizing the annexation of Junagadh and Hyderabad - self-determination for the people of these States, who were ruled by brutal tyrants.

And 'self-determination' for the people of J&K has not yet been implemented.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Gounder said:


> Lets not go into the nuances and minute details of the UN resolution as bo*th sides can find enough clauses to support their respective stands* with convinience.


There are no nuances here - India's own actions and commitments, along with the UNSC resolutions and Millennium Declaration, establish the legal and moral position of the right to self-determination for the Kashmiris, as explained above.


> Tell me one thing - Is not the demand of Kashmiris for independence in conflict with the _UN resolutions which do not grant independence_ as an option.??
> 
> I also ought to remind everyone that the _Indepencence option was dropped at the behest of Pakistan_.
> 
> So with such a basic conflict of interests how can any one move forward.?


What conflict of interest? The first step is for India to agree to implement its commitment to the right of the Kashmiris to self-determination. The next step is for the representatives of India, Pakistan and J&K to enter negotiations on the conditions and choices of the plebiscite. The need and validity of introducing a third option can be arrived at through those negotiations.

In any case, two options in a plebiscite is a much better position than no options and no plebiscite. Forward movement can be achieved, what is needed is for Indians to drop their irrational nationalistic desire to impose their rule over Kashmiris on the basis of some distorted and flawed historical narrative of 'mother India', and accept the validity of self-determination for Kashmiris and the need to resort to it to end the conflict.


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## Guynextdoor

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Read the UNSC resolutions thread, and the excerpt posted above by RamGorur:
> _"upon acceptance of the Truce Agreement both Governments agree to enter into consultations with the Commission to determine fair and equitable conditions whereby such free expression will be assured."​_Consultations were entered into, various plans were proposed by the various commissions, and India rejected them. There was no unilateral obligation upon Pakistan to withdraw its troops - had there been, then there would have been no need for the various UN commissions that tried to arrive at demilitarization and plebiscite proposals.
> 
> That is irrelevant to the legal and moral case, with regards to self-determination, that India herself established and advocated in invading, occupying and annexing the three territories, through her commitments and actions, as explained in my last post.
> 
> Aside from my previous paragraph on why this argument is irrelevant in the context of self-determination, please also look into the history of the dictator Maharajah's rule in J&K, and his extremely discriminatory treatment of his Muslim subjects, and how that discrimination sparked a revolt in Kashmir before any Tribal invasion from Pakistan took place.
> 
> Given that your argument of 'he had no right to rule since he was not democratically elected' seeks to imply that neither accession to Pakistan by the Nawab of Junagadh nor the desire to remain independent by the rule of Hyderabad, have any validity, then so to does the accession of the dictator Maharajah of J&K not have any validity, which brings us back to the principle and means used by India herself in legitimizing the annexation of Junagadh and Hyderabad - self-determination for the people of these States, who were ruled by brutal tyrants.
> 
> And 'self-determination' for the people of J&K has not yet been implemented.


I can argue that the constant interference from Pakistan and efforts to vitiate the atmosphere in India made any conditions of fair and equitable expression of people's interest impossible. 

I can also put up this point- the wishes of the Nawab of Junagarh, the Nizam of Hyderabad as well as the Raja of Kashmir were irrelevant and restricted to one point only- WHICH COUNTRY THEY WOULD ACCEDE TO. That was an explicit agreement between the Congress, the British & JINNAH. Princely states have two options only- India or Pakistan no other option. And it was the decision of the rulers to accede or not. so from the moment the Raja of Kashmir signed the instrument of accession to India, ALL parts of kashmir automatically came to India and your presence automatically became illegal.


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## RamGorur

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It is both a moral and promised right, by the UN and India herself. India, in invading and occupying Jungadh and Hyderabad (the former after the ruler had acceded to Pakistan) chose herself to argue that the plebiscites India conducted in those territories on her own legitimized the annexation of those territories.
> 
> Therefore, India has herself made clear the legal and moral validity of self-determination through her actions and commitments.


UN never made any promise because by the very nature of Chapter VI resolutions, UN can&#8217;t have any obligation, which is the necessary flip side of a promise. I may add once again that the plebiscite was what the parties to the dispute, i.e. India and Pakistan, had agreed among themselves to be the means to resolve the dispute, and UN's role was restricted to that of a witness to the agreement. 

Junagadh and Hyderabad do give rise to an _expectation_, but still doesn&#8217;t give rise to any _right_ to self-determination. If I go to a barber and tip him 5 bucks, it doesn&#8217;t mean that every barber in town, who I may visit from then on, now will have the right to receive similar tip from me. They can certainly expect, but they can hardly claim it as their right.

The claim for a right has to stand on its own merit and can't be argued on the basis of 'Daddy gave candy to my brother and so I have a right to get one too'.

There is however always this question of owning upto one&#8217;s promise and India did make a promise to Kashmiris, albeit conditional. Although a promise makes the promisor obligated to the promisee, it doesn&#8217;t necessarily give rise to any &#8216;right&#8217; to the promisee.



> The UN millenium declaration endorses, 'the right to self-determination of peoples which remain under colonial domination and foreign occupation.' That in conjunction with the UN resolutions, and India's own actions and commitments with respect to J&K, Junagadh and Hyderabad, provides an affirmation of the Kashmiri 'Right to self-determination'.


Constitutionally, it is Pakistan which is occupying a portion of Kashmir, not India. Sir Owen Dixon, an Australian constitutional lawyer was appointed by UN to fix the specifics of plebiscite. He stayed in the subcontinent for about 3 months in 1950. In his report, dated 15th Sept, 1950, he made the following observation (pg 7/8):

_&#8216;&#8230;without going into the causes or reasons why it happened, which presumably formed part of the history of the sub-continent, I was prepared to adopt the view that *when the frontier of the State of Jammu and Kashmir was crossed, on I believe 20 October 1947, by hostile elements, it was contrary to international law, and that when, in May 1948, as I believe, units of regular Pakistan forces moved into the territory of the state that too was inconsistent with international law.&#8217;*_

The highlighted part is a polite way of saying Pakistan invaded Kashmir and is occupying it.

I am not debating if Kashmiris deserve a plebiscite to determine the future of their land. My query is if they have a _right_ to claim self-determination. All your arguments revolve around if Kashmiris deserve a plebiscite or not but fails to address my query.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Google map of Kashmir annoys India​*
Published: Aug. 21, 2010 at 9:50 PM

NEW DELHI, Aug. 21 (UPI) -- The Indian government objected Saturday to a Google map showing what India considers ***************** Kashmir as Pakistani territory.

The disputed map comes up on Google Insights for Search, Press Trust of India reported.

"Any wrongful depiction of Indian map and its boundaries is liable for action under the India Information Technology Act," said Sachin Pilot, the Indian minister for telecom and information technology. "Google has been asked to immediately correct this inaccuracy." 

Pilot said Google has agreed to correct the offending map. He added he has asked the government information technology department to search for other maps depicting Kashmir as part of Pakistan.

Kashmir, a Muslim majority region and former princely state, is claimed by both India and Pakistan and has been partitioned for decades. India controls the southeast part, Pakistan the northwest and China a smaller portion to the northeast.

Google map of Kashmir annoys India - UPI.com


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## civfanatic

RamGorur said:


> .
> 
> That is a deliberate, but convenient, misinterpretation of UN resolutions regarding Kashmir. If you carefully read the resolution of 13th August, 1947, which both the countries had accepted and formed the cornerstone for every subsequent resolutions, then you will come across Part III of the resolution which states:
> 
> &#8216;_*The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan reaffirm their wish* that the future status of the State of Jammu and Kashmir shall be determined in accordance with the will of the people and to that end, upon acceptance of the Truce Agreement both Governments agree to enter into consultations with the Commission to determine fair and equitable conditions whereby such free expression will be assured._&#8217;
> 
> It is not an affirmation of Kashmiri&#8217;s right to self-determination, but only recognition by the international community of how both the countries *wished* to resolve their own dispute. By no stretch of the most fertile mind can this be construed as international community&#8217;s affirmation of Kashmiri&#8217;s right to self-determination. If instead of plebiscite, India and Pakistan had decided to settle it over a game of Polo, even that would have been vetted by UN.
> 
> Yes, but only in case of colonialism.
> 
> 
> Nothing can be further from the truth. UN resolutions make it very much explicit that Kashmiris are a part of either Indian or Pakistani nationhood. There is no such thing as &#8216;Kashmiri Nationhood&#8217; and hence, thanks to Pakistan, independence is not an option as per UN resolutions.



If you read the document carefully, under the heading of plebiscite the following is written (B7)

_The Govt of India *Should* undertake that there will be established a plebiscite administration to hold a plebiscite as soon as possible on the question of accession of the state to India or Pakistan_

It is clear from above that according to UN resolutions it is binding upon India to hold plebiscite in Jammu and Kashmir. The part III of resolution is just reaffirmation by India and Pakistan that they agree with international community in this matter. Hence UN resolutions are not only implicit recognition of Kashmiri nationalism by larger international community but also by India and Pakistan .


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## Jade

civfanatic said:


> If you read the document carefully , under the heading of plebicite the folllowing is written (B7)
> 
> [I]The Govt OF India *Should* Undertake that there will be established a plebiscite administration to hold a plebiscite as soon as possible on the question of accession of the state to India or Pakistan [/I].
> 
> It is clear from above that according to UN resolutions it is binding upon India to hold plebiscite in Jammu and Kashmir. The part III of resolution is just reaffirmation by India and Pakistan that they agree with international community in this matter. Hence UN resolutions are not only implicit recognition of Kashmiri nationalism by larger international community but also by India and Pakistan .



If it were a Pakistani, my reply may have been bit harsh, however, as a compatriot (you may thing it differently), I think you seems blinded by anti India/anti Hindu propaganda. I find that you lack nuance of UNSC resolution or you seems to twist UNSC resolution to suit your argument.


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## Hulk

@civfanatic UN resolution are non binding end of story. Interest of nation comes before anything else, not everyone can be given right to chose their country most of us did not got that right. Even if millions more die we will still not give Kashmir, the sooner you understand this the better for you. Anyone who revolts will be treated as traitor and proper treatment given.

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## RamGorur

civfanatic said:


> If you read the document carefully , under the heading of plebicite the folllowing is written (B7)
> 
> [I]The Govt OF India *Should* Undertake that there will be established a plebiscite administration to hold a plebiscite as soon as possible on the question of accession of the state to India or Pakistan [/I].
> 
> It is clear from above that according to UN resolutions it is binding upon India to hold plebiscite in Jammu and Kashmir. The part III of resolution is just reaffirmation by India and Pakistan that they agree with international community in this matter. Hence UN resolutions are not only implicit recognition of Kashmiri nationalism by larger international community but also by India and Pakistan .


You are referring to res 47, which, I have already explained, is redundant in presence of resolution of 13th Aug, 1948 and 5 Jan, 1949.

There is a reason why resolution 47 is not referred to by India or even UN, except probably in one instance. That resolution was passed in a situation where material fact was suppressed by Pakistan. Pakistan refused to admit that PA was well within Kashmiri territory. As a result, the entire onus was dumped on India. When the Commission reached Pakistan, to verify, Sir Zafarulla Khan, the then foreign minister of Pakistan, hastily admitted of PA's presence. This constituted 'material change' and finally led to the resolution of 13th Aug, 1948. If you notice Part II/A(1) of the said resolution makes reference to that 'material change'.

The UNSC resolution of 13 Aug, 1948, as opposed to resolution 47, made plebiscite subjective to certain conditions and intricately bound Pakistan to it. As such resolution 47 became redundant. 

I will again repeat, that by not including the option of independence, Pakistan had rejected 'Kashmiri Nationalism' and given that Kashmiris could either join India or join Pakistan, there is no scope for any Kashmiri Nationalism. 

It is sad that you are just regurgitating the usual falsity that has been used to brainwash Kashmiri youth.


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## Prometheus

indianrabbit said:


> @civfanatic UN resolution are non binding end of story. Interest of nation comes before anything else, not everyone can be given right to chose their country most of us did not got that right. Even if millions more die we will still not give Kashmir, the sooner you understand this the better for you. *Anyone who revolts will be treated as traitor and proper treatment given*.



that will be highly unconstitutional.............


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## Bhairava

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> There are no nuances here - India's own actions and commitments, along with the UNSC resolutions and Millennium Declaration, establish the legal and moral position of the right to self-determination for the Kashmiris, as explained above.



Of course not...though Im not into much of these..I have seen many explanations from toxic_pus in the seven solutions and the UNSC resolutions thread to justify India's present stand in Kashmir.
So please dont potray Pakistan as all angelic and India as the devil incarnate here.




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> What conflict of interest? The first step is for India to agree to implement its commitment to the right of the Kashmiris to self-determination.



What conflict of interest..?!!!? Even in the most anti-Indian part of J&K (the Valley) only a miniscule part of the separatists want to join Pakistan - the absolute majority want independence from both India and Pakistan.

So while *they certainly want their azaadi - the UNSC resolutions we guys talk about promise only India or Pakistan as their future.*

And *it seems your (Pakistani and UN) meaning of self-determination is different from the Kashmiri meaning of self-determination.*

So first you guys iron out your differences among yourselves and then bring India into the picture.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The next step is for the representatives of India, Pakistan and J&K to enter negotiations on the conditions and choices of the plebiscite. The need and validity of introducing a third option can be arrived at through those negotiations.



How do you know that the current gen of leaders will repeat the same foolish mistake that Nehru did going to the UN when the Indian Army was in the process of sucessfully throwing out the invaders.




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> In any case, two options in a plebiscite *is a much better position than no options and no plebiscite.* Forward movement can be achieved, what is needed is for Indians to drop their i*rrational nationalistic desire* to impose their rule over Kashmiris on the basis of some distorted and flawed historical narrative of 'mother India', and accept the validity of self-determination for Kashmiris and the need to resort to it to end the conflict.



Ahh so the real desire of Kashmir to join Pakistan comes out.So much for them to be independent.
As for the nationlistic attitude - with all due respect Pakistanis cant decide if our nationlism is irrational or not.
It will be there no matter what you guys think.
And in what way is the historical narrative flawed.Please explain that part.


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## Hulk

@Prometheus Anyone who revolts against nation is a traitor, even by constitution, read national security act. Anyone violently protesting will be dealt with firm hand. I am being practical here, this is what will happen.


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## Prometheus

indianrabbit said:


> @Prometheus Anyone who revolts against nation is a traitor, even by constitution, read national security act. Anyone violently protesting will be dealt with firm hand. I am being practical here, this is what will happen.



constitution also says that you can demand anything including freedom by peaceful demonstration

and National security act ( whatever that is) cannot do anything about Fundamentals of constitution


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## Bhairava

Prometheus said:


> constitution also says that you can demand anything including freedom by peaceful demonstration
> 
> and National security act ( whatever that is) cannot do anything about Fundamentals of constitution



The constitution in its present form *doesnt allow "Freedom" from India by whatever means* - though it allows peaceful protest through the "Right to Protest".


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## civfanatic

RamGorur said:


> You are referring to res 47, which, I have already explained, is redundant in presence of resolution of 13th Aug, 1948 and 5 Jan, 1949.
> 
> There is a reason why resolution 47 is not referred to by India or even UN, except probably in one instance. That resolution was passed in a situation where material fact was suppressed by Pakistan. Pakistan refused to admit that PA was well within Kashmiri territory. As a result, the entire onus was dumped on India. When the Commission reached Pakistan, to verify, Sir Zafarulla Khan, the then foreign minister of Pakistan, hastily admitted of PA's presence. This constituted 'material change' and finally led to the resolution of 13th Aug, 1948. If you notice Part II/A(1) of the said resolution makes reference to that 'material change'.
> 
> The UNSC resolution of 13 Aug, 1948, as opposed to resolution 47, made plebiscite subjective to certain conditions and intricately bound Pakistan to it. As such resolution 47 became redundant.
> 
> I will again repeat, that by not including the option of independence, Pakistan had rejected 'Kashmiri Nationalism' and given that Kashmiris could either join India or join Pakistan, there is no scope for any Kashmiri Nationalism.
> 
> It is sad that you are just regurgitating the usual falsity that has been used to brainwash Kashmiri youth.


Can you please Give me what is the resolution NO. of these resolutions 
a)resolution of 13th Aug, 1948 

b) resolution of 5 Jan, 1949

This is no place to get into intricate details of UN resolutions which would be very a complex and time consuming process But the substance of UN resolutions is easy to grasp . The substantive part of UN resolutions is affirmation of Kashmiri RSD by International community which neither India nor Pakistan ,unilaterally or bilaterally can take away.


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## Hulk

@Prometheus By revolt I meant violent revolt to damage country's interest. 
This law has never changed since old times.


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## Guynextdoor

civfanatic said:


> Can you please Give me what is the resolution NO. of these resolutions
> a)resolution of 13th Aug, 1948
> 
> b) resolution of 5 Jan, 1949
> 
> This is no place to get into intricate details of UN resolutions which would be very a complex and time consuming process But the substance of UN resolutions is easy to grasp . The substantive part of UN resolutions is affirmation of Kashmiri RSD by International community which neither India nor Pakistan ,unilaterally or bilaterally can take away.


You know i don't even care about the rsolutions. I don't know if you actually belong belong to Indian Kashmir (VERY unlikely) but even if you do....WHAT ON EARTH ARE YOU RAVING ABOUT? You want to join whom? PAKISTAN? Look at their history, their government, their fractured society- they are your beacon light of hope??? Hell they haven't even made up their mind as to whether they are a democrarcy or a dictatorship. 

Pakistan Occupied Kashmir is a mess- infested with terrorists and extremists. That's the kind 0f vision you have for your future???? People like Geelani have held yur society to ransom for DECADES. WHy? Because if real development happens, they will not be able to keep your society burning at their beck and call right? And they are your LEADERS? 

Sure Pakistan will keep ranting about kashmir like a petulant child. In overall governance or coherence of state their track record is abysmal. And out of alll the countries on the planet, it's not a Russia or a China or a Europe or Singapore you want to model yourself into- but Pakistan!


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## civfanatic

> *Valley vows protection to Sikh
> Geelani gives written assurance; Grand Mufti says threat calls only to defame Islam*
> 
> 
> Ishfaq Tantry
> Srinagar, Aug 21: The Valleyites have vowed protection to Sikhs, some of whom have reportedly received threatening letters. The separatists have assured protection to Sikhs while Kashmirs Grand Mufti has termed the threat calls to defame Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> The separatists have termed the unsigned letters threatening Sikhs as handiwo
> 
> rk of Indian Intelligence agencies aimed at giving a communal colour to the ongoing quit JK Movement while Kashmirs Grand Mufti has assured protection to Sikhs.
> 
> We are surprised over the sudden appearance of threatening letters and posters threatening Sikhs. The Muslims of J&K have always considered it part of their religious duty to protect the interests of the Sikh and as other minority groups living in Kashmir, Acting General secretary of Tehreek-e-Hurriyat, Mohammad Yousuf Falahi said in a statement.
> 
> Stating that Sikhs form the part of Kashmirs composite culture, he said, It is quite possible that at certain places Sikhs might have received threatening letters but these letter and posters point towards agencies. We believe that circulation of such letters and posters is the handiwork of Indian Intelligence agencies, who are hell bent to portray the ongoing struggle as communal.
> 
> Urging the Sikhs and other minor communities not to feel insure, he assured them of protection. Kashmiri Muslims should remain vigilant and thwart all nefarious designs of Indian Intelligence agencies, he said.
> 
> Hurriyat (M) chiarman, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has also pledged full protection to minorities living in valley.
> 
> Condemning the threatening letters dropped at some Gurudwaras, Mirwaiz had said that it is the handiwork of agencies who want to divide the people of Kashmir on communal lines.
> 
> I declare that every Kashmiri Muslim is with the minorities living here and pledge to give them security of life and property. We are one and will go forward about our cause unanimously. No power can divide us, he had said.
> 
> Kashmirs Grand Mufti Mufti Bashir-ud-Din too urged the Sikhs not be afraid of such threatening letters.
> 
> Chairing a joint meeting of Muslim Personal law Board and Nudwat-ul-Ulma J&K, Mufti said the threatening letters and their publication by Indian media is sheer propaganda against Islam and its followers in Kashmir. Kashmir is one of the shining examples in whole of Asia, where minorities were never coerced or threatened to convert to Islam, he said in a statement issue here.
> 
> He urged the Kashmiri Muslims to protect the interests of Sikhs and other minority communities.
> 
> Meanwhile, Amritsar based Dal Khalsa leader Kanwarpal Singh in a statement said Hurriyat Conference (G) chairman Syed Ali Geelani has sent a written assurance saying Sikhs should not feel threatened. He expressed his communitys concern on the issue of threat perception emerged in the wake of so-called fake letters, Singh said.
> 
> He said Geelani has re-assured that nobody would force Sikhs to leave the valley or join protests.



Valley vows protection to Sikh


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## Chandler

civfanatic said:


> Can you please Give me what is the resolution NO. of these resolutions
> a)resolution of 13th Aug, 1948
> 
> b) resolution of 5 Jan, 1949
> 
> This is no place to get into intricate details of UN resolutions which would be very a complex and time consuming process But the substance of UN resolutions is easy to grasp . The substantive part of UN resolutions is affirmation of Kashmiri RSD by International community which neither India nor Pakistan ,unilaterally or bilaterally can take away.



Go through this *link* ; This constitutes the precondition for the Plebiscite which is itself stated as


> _*Recommends*_ to the Government of India and Pakistan the following measures .... to decide whether *the State of Jammu and Kashmir is to accede to India or Pakistan* :


 So your monotonous harp of Kashmir Independence is now out of the window. And secondly the critical word here is "Recommend" ; Which means it is NON-COMPULSION.

Secondly, Read up on the Restoration of peace and Order section in Section A (Page 10) .


> The Government of Pakistan should undertake .... (a) To secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the state for the purpose of fighting and to prevent any intrusion into the State of such elements...


Putting this in effect would mean that The Entire State of Jammu and Kashmir (including P@kistan-occupied Kashmir, and the Northern Areas including the Indian-held Kashmir), would have to claim that the nationals residing currently in the Jammu and Kashmir state are true residents of the state ; India keeps its end of the bargain through Article 370 ; Pakistan has no such law or constitution in place which prevents holding of property or land in Kashmir for Pakistani nationals. So do you see the practical difficulty of the Preconditions of the Plebiscite here ? Also the Emma Nicholson EU Report trashes the very idea of Plebiscite stating that it is contrary to Kashmiris' interests. Also, it says that 


> Parliament was critical of Pakistan, stating that it regretted that Pakistan has consistently failed to fulfil its obligations to introduce representative democratic structures in AJK, the continuing absence of Kashmiri representation in the Pakistan National Assembly, the fact that AJK is governed through the Ministry of Kashmir Affairs in Islamabad, that Pakistan officials dominate the Kashmir Council and that the Chief Secretary, the Inspector-General of Police, the Accountant-General and the Finance Secretary are all from Pakistan. Parliament felt that the Gilgit-Baltistan region enjoys no form of democratic representation whatsoever. It expressed concern regarding the lack of freedom of expression in AJK and reports of torture and mistreatment, of discrimination against refugees from Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir. It also urged a continuing and determined commitment by President Musharraf to fighting terrorism, which, it is widely recognised, presents enormous challenges. The report went on to strongly support the International Crisis Group's recommendations of December 2006 calling on Pakistan to take decisive action to disarm militants in AJK and Gilgit and Baltistan, shut down terrorist training camps, stop terrorist recruitment and training on its territory and end the flow of money and weapons to the Taliban and other foreign or local militants on Pakistani territory.


 Read the *link* here.


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## Prometheus

*Dont leave Valley in panic, BJP urges Sikhs *

Terming the National Conference (NC)-Congress government in the state as a direction-less alliance forged for the lust of power, national vice-president of the BJP Vinay Katiyar today alleged that the minorities were not safe in the Valley due to the prevailing situation in Kashmir.

Katiyar, a firebrand BJP leader who was especially deputed by the party to launch the Save Kashmir campaign in Jammu, blamed the weak policies of the state government for the turmoil in the Valley. He alleged that instead of tackling the situation with an iron hand, the government had been functioning on the directions of the separatist leaders like Sayed Ali Shah Geelani.

Amid reports of the circulation of pamphlets in which Sikhs living in the Kashmir valley were threatened of dire consequences by some fundamentalists, the BJP leader offered full support to the members of the minority community living in the Valley. I appeal to the Sikhs living in the Kashmir valley not to migrate from their native places at any cost and the BJP would effectively take up their issues in and outside Parliament, he said.

Cautioning the minorities against the designs of the fundamentalists active in the Kashmir valley, Katiyar alleged that on the one hand they had been threatening the Sikhs on the other some elements had been shedding crocodile tears to hoodwink them.

Katiyar minced no words in attacking Chief Minister Omar Abdullah for, what he alleged, succumbing to the pressure of the separatists. A weak Chief Minister like Omar Abdullah cannot protect minorities, hence Union Home Minister P Chidambaram should personally intervene to avoid the exodus of the minorities from the Valley, he said and warned that the BJP would not remain a mute spectator to the situation. We have launched a nationwide campaign, which would be further intensified for the integration of the country, he said.The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Jammu & Kashmir


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## RamGorur

civfanatic said:


> Can you please Give me what is the resolution NO. of these resolutions
> a)resolution of 13th Aug, 1948
> 
> b) resolution of 5 Jan, 1949


You will find all the resolutions, including some drafts here. The site is maintained by your friends from Canada. Authenticity is therefore guaranteed. 



> This is no place to get into intricate details of UN resolutions which would be very a complex and time consuming process But the substance of UN resolutions is easy to grasp . The substantive part of UN resolutions is affirmation of Kashmiri RSD by International community which neither India nor Pakistan ,unilaterally or bilaterally can take away.


You know, repeating this a trillion times is not going to make it true.


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## SpArK

*Army to use non-lethal weapons against riot in JK*

Srinagar, Aug 22: Kashmir police and paramilitary forces deployed in the valley will change from lethal to non-lethal weapons after 62 civilians lost their lives in the ongoing unrest.


*The new non-lethal weapons include Taser guns, pellets and pepper balls. The US-made Taser guns can discharge a nine-volt current that momentarily immobilizes a protester so that he can be taken into custody without causing any grievous hurt.
*

*The pepper balls can discharge highly irritating fumes that will force the mobs to disperse and the Pump Action Gun (PAG) will fire pellets at the protesters, which will not cause any deaths.*

*On Saturday, Aug 21, an Indian Air Force (IAF) plane brought an assortment of non-lethal weapons to Srinagar and this will be immediately distributed for riot control across the valley. *

But many officials are not sure about the efficacy of these these non-lethal weapons. They described that these weapons can also cause mortality.

"To tell the truth, there is nothing like a non-lethal weapon as long as it is used from a close range. Unless the mandatory distance of contact between the rioter and the riot controller is maintained, all so-called non-lethal weapons can cause mortality," said an official.
*
"Some of the weapons like dye sprinkled through water cannons and pepper balls can be used without any fear of causing mortality during crowd control operations, but the debate continues whether these two items have any efficacy at all on crowds bent on even snatching firearms from the deployed security men," *official added.


Kashmir Protest | Curfew in Valley | Non Lethal weapons | Taser Guns | Stone Pelting - Oneindia News


http://sify.com/news/non-lethal-weapons-to-be-used-in-kashmir-news-national-kiwo4biabfd.html


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## muse

A sort of replay of Israel in the occupied territories?




> To tell the truth, there is nothing like a non-lethal weapon as long as it is used from a close range. Unless the mandatory distance of contact between the rioter and the riot controller is maintained, all so-called non-lethal weapons can cause mortality," said an official



and yet note the title of the thread

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## Lankan Ranger

*India for Israeli oppression tactics in Kashmir*

The 2010 summer in the disputed area of Jammu and Kashmir, administered by India, has been marked by popular protests by Kashmiris and crackdowns by India's military. 

The stream of violence has left more than fifty dead, mostly young protestors. The situation in Kashmir has some parallels with Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, even borrowing the term intifada to describe the uprising. 

But the connection is more than analogy -- Israel's pacification efforts against Palestinians have proven valuable for the Indian police, army and intelligence services in their campaigns to pacify Jammu and Kashmir with numerous Indian military and security imports from Israel leading the way.

India and Israel had a limited relationship prior to 1992. India, as a prominent member of the Non-Aligned Movement (NAM), had helped to form the NAM political positions on Palestine as part of the "struggle against imperialism, colonialism, neo-colonialism, apartheid, racism, including Zionism and all forms of expansionism, foreign occupation and domination and hegemony" (1979, Havana Declaration). 

Beyond its anti-colonial and Third World solidarity politics, India also had realpolitik reasons for keeping a distance from Israel. The nation had a developing economy with a huge need for petroleum resources, of which it had no domestic source. 

Good relations with the Arab League and the Soviet Union helped to secure access to resources necessary for India to become the regional and global economic power it aspires to be.

With the beginning of the Oslo negotiations process between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization in the mid-1990s and the end of the Cold War, India was free to pursue relations with Israel from a NAM standpoint. 

An end to the Israeli occupation was assumed a formality under Oslo by most international observers, especially early on -- and had, by that time, gained the economic strength to pursue a policy taking it, as described in a US Army War College (USAWC) analysis, "from a position of nonalignment and noncommitment to having specific strategic interests taking it on a path of 'poly-alignment.'" 

The report states that India has been in a "scramble to establish 'strategic relationships' with most of the major powers and many of the middle powers," including Israel.

Israel rendered limited military assistance to India in its 1962 war with China and the 1965 and 1971 wars with Pakistan. It was not until after the Oslo process began though, that the limited military contacts developed into a fuller strategic relationship. According to The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, in 1994 "India requested equipment to guard the de facto Indo-Pakistan Kashmiri border. 

New Delhi was interested in Israeli fences, which use electronic sensors to track human movements" (Thomas Withington, "Israel and India partner up," January/February 2001, pp.18-19). The remaining years of the decade were peppered with arms sales from Jerusalem to New Delhi, most notably unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) and electronic warfare systems.

The strategic military relationship picked up even more steam in the new millennium and annual arms sales average in the hundreds of millions of dollars. 

The shift of Israel being a major defense supplier to a strategic partner was formalized in a September 2003 state visit by then-Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to India where the Hindu nationalist government then in power, the Bharatiya Janata Party led by then-Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee, hosted the Israeli delegation and coauthored the Delhi Statement on Friendship and Cooperation between India and Israel. The statement's longest segment is on terrorism. 

It declares that "Israel and India are partners in the battle against this scourge" and that "there cannot be any compromise in the war against terrorism." The relationship has expanded drastically since 2000 with, in some recent years, Israel even supplanting Russia as India's largest arms supplier. 

Surface-to-air missile systems, naval craft, advanced radar systems and other remote sensing technologies, artillery systems and numerous joint production initiatives ranging from munitions to avionics systems have all further boosted the relationship.

But as the Kashmiri uprising enters its third decade, the most telling part of the relationship is the export of Israeli pacification efforts against Palestinians to India, and their use in Jammu and Kashmir (and elsewhere as India faces multiple popular revolts). 

Israel has trained thousands of Indian military personnel in counterinsurgency since 2003. According to a 2003 JINSA analysis, "Presumably to equip these soldiers, India recently concluded a $30 million agreement with Israel Military Industries (IMI) for 3,400 Tavor assault rifles, 200 Galil sniper rifles, as well as night vision and laser range finding and targeting equipment."

In 2004, the Israeli intelligence agencies Mossad and General Security Services (Shin Bet) arrived in India "to conduct the first field security surveillance course for Indian Army Intelligence Corps sleuths." The Globes article on the topic cites an Indian source stating "The course has been designed to look at methods of intelligence gathering in insurgency affected areas, in keeping with the challenges that Israel has faced." 

The further acquisition of UAVs, their joint production and the acquisition of other surveillance systems, notably 2010 agreements for both spy satellites and satellite communications systems, have all helped to further India's pacification campaigns in Jammu and Kashmir. 

A notable example of how deeply embedded in India the Israeli counterinsurgency and homeland security industries are is the May 2010 agreement whereby Ra'anana-based Nice Systems will provide security systems and a command and control center for India's parliament. Parliament security head Sandeep Salunke noted the context for the $5 million contract being "In light of the recent increase in global terrorism" (Nice Systems press release, 25 May 2010).

India's political trend towards poly-alignment whereby it can have both strategic energy agreements with Iran and strategic defense agreements with Israel is part of a broader strategy the USAWC report noted by which "India will fiercely protect its own internal and bilateral issues from becoming part of the international dialog (Kashmir being the most obvious example)." 

This hostility towards international engagement with its occupation is not the only resemblance to Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. 

Both were born out the the end of the British colonialism, both are seen as front lines of the "War on Terror," both the Kashmiri and Palestinian armed groups are erroneously seen as illegitimate in their own right, being mere tools of a foreign aggressor (Pakistan for Kashmir and Iran or Syria for Palestine), both have widespread abuses of human rights, and the Israeli public's general apathy about or hostility towards Palestinian self-determination is surpassed by the domestic discussion in India, where Kashmiri self-determination isn't even an issue, though pacifying Kashmir and securing the border with Pakistan is.

The analogy between the two conflicts can only be taken so far, but the direct connection by which Israel's pacification industry exports tools of control developed for use against the Palestinians (and Lebanese) to be deployed against Kashmiris (as well as against the Naxalites and others in India) shows a deep linkage between the two conflicts and how one feeds the other. 

So long as Israel seeks to maintain control over Palestine it will continue to develop pacification tools, and so long as India continues its campaigns in Jammu and Kashmir, Kashmiris can expect to taste the fruits of Palestinian pacification.

India employing Israeli oppression tactics in Kashmir


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## Spring Onion

Time for Kashmiris to adopt pepper balls along with stones as non-lethal still lethal weapons against Indian terrorist army in Occupied Kashmir.

Lets sprinkle the red pepper upside down of these Indian army invaders

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## SpArK

Jana said:


> Time for Kashmiris to adopt pepper balls along with stones as non-lethal still lethal weapons against Indian terrorist army in Occupied Kashmir.
> 
> Lets sprinkle the red pepper upside down of these Indian army invaders



Commodity Trading Tips | Pepper rises on tight supplies | 20 August 2010 | www.commodityonline.com

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## Kompromat

Something that Brings to oppressors closer.


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## Spring Onion

> Both were born out the the end of the British colonialism, both are seen as front lines of the "War on Terror,"




And their front line of War on Terror is in fact front line of Terror war on Palestinians and Kashmiris in their own land occupied by these two terrorist states

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## civfanatic

RamGorur said:


> You will find all the resolutions, including some drafts here. The site is maintained by your friends from Canada. Authenticity is therefore guaranteed.
> 
> 
> You know, repeating this a trillion times is not going to make it true.



Just Give me the Resolution NOs I will look up for them at UN offical website .


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## IBRIS




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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

i think such tactics wont work for India , being a much bigger country and indulged in multiple insurgencies...


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## mjnaushad

So now we'll see Indian soldier posting pics with cuffed handed men and saying "I'd like to butcher all Kashmiris". 

Good luck with that.


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## sab

The youths in jeans and T-shirts and costly shoes should know that it is our hardearned money paid to GOI as Tax made them survive (poverty rate in J&K is one of the lowest in the country around 6-7&#37. If they still decline to be good boys and behave as the puppets of a terrorist country we will definately hammer them.

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## RamGorur

civfanatic said:


> Just Give me the Resolution NOs I will look up for them at UN offical website .


It doesn't have a formal Resolution # because it was neither passed at General Assembly nor at Security Council. It was passed at the Commission. 

If it helps you, the document number, for 13th Aug, 1948 resolution is S/995. I am afraid I don't have the document number for the 5th Jan, 1949 resolution.


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## sasuke

Time for India to adopt these ....


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## sab

Jana said:


> Time for Kashmiris to adopt pepper balls along with stones as non-lethal still lethal weapons against Indian terrorist army in Occupied Kashmir.
> 
> Lets sprinkle the red pepper upside down of these Indian army invaders


That would be better. Earlier you paid your hard-earned money to contribute the jehadis in your streets, now you can supply them straight from your kitchen

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## humanfirst

Israeli tactics?Thank god india is not using tactics used by pak army in fata like levelling entire villages with artillery fire.

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## mjnaushad

humanfirst said:


> Israeli tactics?Thank god india is not using tactics used by pak army in fata like levelling entire villages with artillery fire.


I know you are sad....Because Indian terrorist agents TTP get killed in such tactics and not civilians.....

BTW any proof of leveling the villages claim?


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## Bhairava

humanfirst said:


> Israeli tactics?*Thank god india* is not using tactics used by pak army in fata like levelling entire villages with artillery fire.



Thank God..? For how much time we will be loosing our tax money in pampering these separatists.??

Its time to take the Kid Gloves off ....GoI.


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## Goodperson

India has to use the best techniques to control foreign incited violence in Kashmir.
Misguided people must be controlled.


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## civfanatic

> *Muddasir first victims of deadly pellet gun*
> SAMAAN LATEEF
> 
> Srinagar, Aug 20: After teargas shells and bullets, forces are now resorting to pellet firing on protesters causing multiple injuries to the victims, which doctors say is more dangerous than bullet injuries.
> The paramilitary CRPF on Thursday fired cluster of pellets in Sopur and Soura on protesters in which 18-year old Muddasir Nazir of Sopur died and three others received multiple injuries.
> *Doctors termed the use of pellets on protesters outrageous. &#8220;Bullet injured persons are easy to treat than pellet injured. A pellet is as bad as a bullet. And they (forces) are firing cluster of pellets on youth for which we have to do multiple minor surgeries,&#8221; said a senior doctor in SKIMS, who was aghast over the use of new weapon.*&#8220;We have never seen such condition of patients here. They have got injuries in multiple organs, which can cause instant death,&#8221; he said.
> Due to pellet firing almost whole small intestine of Muddasir was perforated with massive gangrene. He had also received multiple injuries in abdomen, chest and thighs. Muddasir succumbed to injuries last night in SKIMS.
> &#8220;We made every effort to save him but the pellets had damage his whole gut,&#8221; he said. If a person is shot at by a bullet, the doctors have to concentrate on very small portion of the body during operation. However, when a cluster of pellets is fired, they have to open his whole body and chances of survival are very bleak. &#8220;We face lot of problems while operating upon a patient fired with cluster of pellets,&#8221; he said.
> Another victim of pellet firing, 15-year old Danish Ahmad Shiekh of Tarzoo Sopur received multiple pellet injuries on head, scapular region, back and one pellet in orbit. He was referred from SKIMS to Ophthalmology department of SMHS hospital as he had received grave injury in his left eye.
> Two others- Muhammad Umar War and Nisar Ahmad Malla of Anchar Soura- were also shot by pellets. They also received multiple injuries in head, chest, legs and arms.
> A CRPF spokesman was quoted by a New Delhi based television network as saying that Assistant Commandant SK Das of the 177 battalion fired two rounds from a pellet gun in self defence and Muddassir was hit in the abdomen.


Muddasir first victims of deadly pellet gun Lastupdate:- Sat, 21 Aug 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com

Very Non Lethal


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## inddef

something that should've been done decades ago. hopefully will also be accompanied by measures to strictly control any abuses by armed forces personnel and changing rules of engagement for suspsect terrorists to avoid civilian casualties at all costs.


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## inddef

taser guns are ripe for misuse as well. this is still not good enough actually. the best thing is to make sure that policymen are competely armoured and then they have to do very little.


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## Goodperson

muse said:


> A sort of replay of Israel in the occupied territories?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and yet note the title of the thread



Why bring Israel ? Non Lethal weapons will definitely reduce mortality. But quite a few bad guys will be benefited.


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## Chandler

mjnaushad said:


> I know you are sad....Because Indian terrorist agents TTP get killed in such tactics and not civilians.....
> 
> BTW any proof of leveling the villages claim?


*Here* you go. Of particular interest to you is this.


> In a virtual replay of the 1971 assault on civilian population in what was then East Pakistan (now Bangladesh), the Pakistani army has launched a brutal operation in Swat and other areas in Northern Pakistan.
> 
> In March 1971, the army massacred innocent Pakistanis in the name of fighting the secessionist Mukti Bahinis. There are few differences between the two operations. However, there are many similarities between the 1971 Search Light operation that resulted in the creation of Bangladesh and the current Rah-e-Haq (The Straight Path) operation. In both cases the targets were few thousand rebels or militants. The army is using brutal force in Swat and other areas with heavy artillery and gunship helicopter.


And while the author says that


> The military has not released civilian casualty numbers or - as it is called in the modern war jargon - collateral damage figures. At the same time millions have been displaced and became refugees in their own country.


, he definitively also mentions


> Now millions of these displaced and uprooted people  referred as Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs) - are paying the price of this army "success" with the destruction of their homes, businesses, schools and clinics. They have lost their families, children and livelihoods. An unaccounted number of civilians have been killed as the heavy artillery pounded the towns from where civilians were not able to escape because of the curfews. Not surprisingly, as a result, many of them feel as much antipathy to the Pakistan army as they do to the Taliban.


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## muse

> Why bring Israel ?



Too late for that - it seems media have caught that aspecgt all by themselves - see thread on this board


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## IndianRobo

Thats a great Idea, Can use Stun Guns, Pepper balls, Rubber Bullets to disperse the Crowd.....Its a Welcoming Move


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## Spring Onion

Chandler said:


> *Here* you go. Of particular interest to you is this.
> 
> And while the author says that
> , he definitively also mentions



 bhartis justifying Indian Cross Border State Terrorism in East Pakistan.


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## do_more

I am a fan of water boarding.. India should implement immediately on kashmir militants.


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## Chandler

Jana said:


> bhartis justifying Indian Cross Border State Terrorism in East Pakistan.


Wow...i never knew that Abdus Sattar Ghazali is a Bharati !!! From his *Bio*, he was born in the Indian subcontinent, but still "made his bones" in Pakistan. Nice, your statement makes as much sense as taking the square-root of a tomato.

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## Hulk

I like the Taser gun, some of the guys trying to burn public property. Till few days back @GreenStar was shouting why non lethal weapons are not used and day1 it is criticized. So for some no matter what you do they will criticise you.


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## Prometheus

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> i think such tactics wont work for India , being a much bigger country and indulged in multiple insurgencies...



you are confusing me............Who are Indians and who are people who are occupying illegally Kashmir, Khalistan, Assam, Nagaland, Tamil Nadu, Deccan ,Sikkim,Moasitan etc etc etc.

and where is India if that part is not India??????

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## Bhairava

civfanatic said:


> Muddasir first victims of deadly pellet gun Lastupdate:- Sat, 21 Aug 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com
> 
> Very Non Lethal



If you guys are so averse to casualties why come and protest violently/destroy public property in the first place.?

You also want to throw stones for "azaadi"..but you also dont want to get shot or hurt.


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## GreenStar

> Till few days back @GreenStar was shouting why non lethal weapons are not used and day1 it is criticized. So for some no matter what you do they will criticise you.



Well Mr IndianRabbit I applaud the fact that India is using non-lethal weapons, its a step towards progress. Hopefully this progress will continue and bring peace in Kashmir in which it deserves. So I have not criticized the Indian government, in fact I have just complemented it, for its smart thinking.


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## SpArK




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## Razavi

There is no difference btw Indian & Israel army. Both are criminals...


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## riju78

About time.


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## civfanatic

RamGorur said:


> It doesn't have a formal Resolution # because it was neither passed at General Assembly nor at Security Council. It was passed at the Commission.
> 
> If it helps you, the document number, for 13th Aug, 1948 resolution is S/995. I am afraid I don't have the document number for the 5th Jan, 1949 resolution.



This is because you are making an erroneous statement that Res 47 is irrelevant after subsequent UN resolutions. When the case is exactly opposite. Subsequent UN resolutions were in fact passed to devise methods to achieve the plebiscite as promised in RES 47 . All these subsequent resolutions are therefore rooted in political conditions on ground and that is why language changes from "SHOULD" to "MAY" because in absence of any military pressure from UN that is the only language that UN could have talked .Hence the most substantive part of UN resolutions is contained in RES 47 and not in subsequent resolutions, which were merely to allow mechanism for plebiscite and therefore needed to reflect political situation on ground .


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## Hulk

Taser is good we should be able to catch some of these people using it.


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## HAIDER

Whether Kashmir gets freedom or not, India, for sure, is going to lose its ground completely in the valley

Mehdi Siddique
After achieving freedom from the colonial British rule in 1947, India declared itself a democratic country. A country where none shall be oppressed and all will be given equal chances to grow economically, socially and morally regardless of their language, colour, creed, and religion etc.

Accordingly a constitution was framed which gave these opportunities to its citizens and all were directly obliged to adhere to the constitution. Nevertheless, the citizens of India were given some basic and important rights, which aimed to uplift a common citizen and help him to come out of the major problems. These rights came to be known as Fundamental Rights. The seven fundamental rights recognised by the constitution are right to equality, right to freedom, right to freedom from exploitation, right to freedom of religion, cultural and educational rights, right to constitutional remedies and right to education.

And now, after 63 years of Independent India, we witness a new India, which it never was supposed to be. People of India never fought to see a day like this, when their own made government would have no respect for the sentiments, and feelings for the people which they claim to be their own very part. We now witness a so called big democracy in a big crisis.

Kashmir- the so called integral part of India has lost 100 thousand lives just to attain something which is very much democratic, constitutional, and just in nature. Fundamentally, people of Kashmir want peace. What does the Indian constitution say about those who want to live in peace, those who dont want to see their kith and kin killed by the CRPF bullets?

But, as already mentioned, the present day India is not the India it was supposed to be. The government of India is afraid to address the vexed issue of Kashmir and solve the dispute in accordance to the wishes and aspirations of Kashmiri people.

On one hand the government of India claims Kashmir to be its integral part and on the other it is detaining the people of Kashmir of the fundamental rights which it should grant to Kashmiris if its claim is true. If Kashmir is really an integral part of India then why:

1. More then 52 civilians were killed by the Paramilitary forces in last twos months unrest, more than 60 killed since June, 11, 2010 and more than 100 thousand people were killed in last two decades. To this the government both at centre and state replies that- these civilians are not civilians at all, they carry stones in their hands and provoke the Paramilitary forces. If this is the case then why- in Mumbai, Delhi etc water tanks are used to disperse the protestors (who carry the same stones) while here no other option is found but to open fire at the angry mobs. And it is even more ironical to see that out of the 31 patients with the bullet injuries, admitted in SKIMS on Aug 2, 2010, 15 have been shot above the legs with 14 on head. Protection of life and personal liberty is mentioned in the Article 21 of Indian constitution which the Indian government is itself defying in Kashmir.

2. Local population is being harassed for peaceful protest; even those protesting over FACEBOOK are not spared. And FIR is being hammered on all of them. What has happened to the freedom of speech which is supposed to be the fundamental right of every citizen of India, are the commoners not even allowed to raise their voices over the unending blood bath?

3. Kashmiris, specifically, when outside state are harassed in hotels, motels etc and are often wrongly convicted as terrorists etc. They are always looked upon with suspicion and doubt. Hence Kashmiris are even deprived of the first fundamental right which Indian constitution grants to its citizens, that is the right to equality.

4. 7 lakh troopers have been deployed and many of the battalions are stationed in populated areas. The total population of Kashmir is around 80 lakh which means the troops-civilian ratio is 1:10 which is highest in the entire world. 

These points are enough to prove that the claim of India that Kashmir is their integral part if hollow in totality. How can it be an integral part of India when the basic rights which are enjoyed by each and every Indian citizen are not granted to Kashmiris? In reality, the so called one of the biggest democracies of the world is at war with the people of Kashmir.

Moreover, the government of India seems to be least concerned in even addressing the issue of Kashmir in a proper way. They wait until the situation goes from bad to worse. There were seldom any serious talks before the August, 2008 protests in Kashmir which was originally triggered by Amarnath land issue. For the time being talks continued under the banner of Quiet diplomacy which no one has ever explained and no one ever understood. Similarly, the seriousness and concern of India rose only after the killings in June, 11 this year.

India has lost Kashmir because of its own faults. The Indian government has never accepted their faults where they should have. Had Indian government been more sincere in approach, maybe, the situation would not have been worse as it is today. Had it employed democratic tools which it claims to abide by, may be the situation would not have been so disastrous.

At the top of it, New Delhi is using the wrong tactics to tackle the Kashmir issue. This is what it has become, more of a tackling nature than resolving one. Where Kashmiris are demanding revocation of the draconic laws like AFSPA and troop reduction and demilitarisation in public areas, state government supported by the centre is keen in pumping in even army, more units of CRPF and now Rapid Action Force (RAF) is all set to find its stake in the valley too. This clearly shows that Indian government is miscalculating the facts somewhere. They are not reaching out to the people of Kashmir and are not interested in knowing as to what the demands of the people are. This is where India as a democratic country has landed just after 63 year of its independence.

It should be noted that the spirit of azadi amongst the masses is very strong at the grass roots level. It will be an utter non-sense to term that it is being fostered by Pakistan, ISI or any separatist group.

All this depicts that the government of India is purely lacking the fundaments of Kashmir issue and in some way or other lack of seriousness in resolving the Kashmir issue can be widely seen now on their part.

At this point it is not only Kashmiri people who are undergoing turmoil but the Indias image as a big democracy in the world is at stake too. The way India is operating in Kashmir right now might make it the clone of Israel in the eyes of the Muslims and other humanely people of the whole world. And who knows this might even lead to the boycott of Indian products and services across the world. Boycotting upcoming Common Wealth Games scheduled at New Delhi is already the talk of the town now. Whether Kashmir gets freedom or not India is for sure going to lose its ground completely from the valley. And now the sincerity of India towards resolving Kashmir issue is at real test, if it is sincere then revoking AFSPA, demilitarisation from the public and market areas will be a first step forward. Let India weigh its democratic image in the real scale.
India has lost Kashmir

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## kashith

india has not lost kashmir.some people feel alienated,that is all nothing which can not be resolved throught talks

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## HAIDER

Well, Indian should stop singing the song of democracy, when since 48 7 lakh of Indian army sitting their. Where the ratio of indian army and population is 10:1. Pakistan never singing the song of shining democracy. 
In only one place in whole world where there is " Draconian law" made by British is still in Indian occupied state of Assam. Where Army is not question for their action.

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## majesticpankaj

as we have lost kashmir so pls for god's sake, pls dont talk about it anymore. thanks

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## Solomon2

majesticpankaj said:


> as we have lost kashmir so pls for god's sake, pls dont talk about it anymore. thanks


Tsk-tsk. Better to negotiate security arrangements with Pakistan before the referendum, rather than afterward. At the very least you'll want to avoid such horrible scenes from separation days as when Pakistan and India traded railroad cars filled with the severed heads of Muslims from one side, and Hindus on the other.


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## indian_reality

The main problem in Kashmir is definitely pakistan sponsored islamic terrorism which in turn necessitates stationing of troops which in turn sometimes leads to human rights violation.But the second big problem is the Indian political establishment. Unbridled Corruption,severe myopia and power-grabbing has brought kashmir to this sad situation.People there being mostly uneducated and mis-informed compounds the problem. Things can be cooled down by eliminating quite a few politicians both in Delhi and Srinagar and the separatists.The earn their living in India, gets everything, wants Indian passports for their children but incites kashmiris against the country and takes orders from masters in Islamabad. 
Blaming Pakistan for everything as a way of ducking responsibility and not accounting for their mess is a forte of Indian politicians. Next they will blame Pakistan for the bad roads in your locality

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## riju78

HAIDER said:


> In only one place in whole world where there is " Draconian law" made by British is still in Indian occupied state of Assam. Where Army is not question for their action.


 can u rephrase this please. Didn't make much sense. Draconian??? Assam occupied???

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## sasuke

yay!! .. Kashmir problem is solved ... Cheers to Kashmiris ... I don't understand why you guys are spoiling their happiness?

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## Guynextdoor

Solomon2 said:


> Tsk-tsk. Better to negotiate security arrangements with Pakistan before the referendum, rather than afterward. At the very least you'll want to avoid such horrible scenes from separation days as when Pakistan and India traded railroad cars filled with the severed heads of Muslims from one side, and Hindus on the other.


lol...U really don't know us do you....referrendum? yeah that's gonna happen!! The Indian security establishment will be of the opinion that the best way to solve the problem is to make certain 'states' in the neighborhood disappear all together. There are enuf people wanting 'self determination' over there too.


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## Bhairava

HAIDER said:


> Well, Indian should stop singing the song of democracy, when since 48 7 lakh of Indian army sitting their. Where the ratio of indian army and population is 10:1. Pakistan never singing the song of shining democracy.
> In only one place in whole world where there is " Draconian law" made by British is still in *Indian occupied state of Assam*. Where Army is not question for their action.



SO what exactly are we talking about here....Indian Occupied Kashmir or Indian Occupied Assam.?

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## anathema

Sigh..India has not lost Kashmir..never will...It cant ..it wont...

If it ever does -- then India will find it difficult to exist -- why ? Because every state will ask for its own fiefdom and independence....People who are alienated will just have to feel that way till they cease to exist....If you want to call us occupational force - Fine !! But after some time , maybe 50 odd years down the line , the line will blur between a occupational force and my own nation !! Hope def.pk is around then , and i am posting on it then..

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## linkinpark

63 years and waiting...for this to happen. I don't know how many people are going to go through these useless motions all over again when the facts at the ground level state that Kashmir is firmly under the grip of India. Given the terrain it is impossible to win over kashmir either Pakistan part or Indian part. People should come off from their wet dreams and delusions and see the ground realities for themselves.

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## Kompromat

*Six hurt in fresh Indian Kashmir clashes*







(AFP)  10 hours ago

SRINAGAR, India  Six people were hurt Sunday when police fired pump action shotguns at stone-throwing protesters in Kashmir, where more than 60 people have died during anti-India protests.

Police said the incident took place in Srinagar, the main town in Indian Kashmir, when police were conducting a flag march.

"Some miscreants pelted stones heavily on the police. The police used (teargas) and pump action ammunition to chase them away," a police statement said, adding that six people were hurt. Doctors said one was in a critical condition.

*Witnesses said the police used force on worshippers who were coming out of a mosque and that there was no stone pelting.*

Tensions have been threatening to boil over during two months of demonstrations with 62 protesters and bystanders -- some as young as nine -- killed in the Muslim-majority region where anti-India feelings run deep.

The scenic region has been under rolling curfews to contain protests that began with the killing June 11 of a teenage student by a police teargas shell in Srinagar.

The protests have confronted India's government with one of its biggest domestic crises as it grapples with how to calm tensions in the mountainous region once known as "Switzerland of the East".

Security forces sealed off neighbourhoods with barbed wire and put up road blockades on Sunday in Srinagar, the main city of Indian Kashmir where an insurgency against New Delhi's rule has been underway for two decades.

Militant violence has declined sharply in the region but popular protests against New Delhi's rule have intensified over the past two years.

*Protesters opposed to Indian rule in Kashmir have clashed with police on an almost daily basis during the last two months, leading to the worst violence in the region in more than two years.*

AFP: Six hurt in fresh Indian Kashmir clashes


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## FreekiN

roza toot jata hai agar pathar pankhein 

obviously they cant have been throwing.


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## DGMO

anathema said:


> Sigh..India has not lost Kashmir..never will...It cant ..it wont...


I think you are missing the crux of the story. It clearly hasn't lost Kashmir territorially, it's spelling out that the GoI has lost the people of Kashmir (the Valley that is).

In fairness, it's pertinent to ask if they were ever onside. The events of the past two months have only widened the disconnect between the two, and it's now in a incredibly delicate state.

What is important to understand is that this is another young generation that is protesting, another generation with hatred steeped in their blood. That spells trouble for now and the future. Any feeling of belonging to the Union is as remote as it ever has been.

The security forces represent the tricolour, they represent India, and for that reason alone, they cannot bring themselves to say they're Indian, never really have done, and the events of the past three summers only reinforces that feeling.

I think that's a fair summary of what is being said.

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## DGMO

Guynextdoor said:


> You mean another generation you have managed to indoctrinate with vile hatred?


Yes, Pakistani's are standing at every street corner in Srinagar, in Baramullah, in Sopore with megaphones, screaming away and indoctrinating the people. Bad Pakistani's, naughty Pakistani's.

Your head in the sand mentality isn't going to change the mindset of the protesters / seperatists. But you're more than happy to go ahead with that attitude, rather than finding a solution to the problems.

I've got to go now, need to load up another crate of those stones to have parcelled across the LoC. Will make sure I slip in a few notes to 'indoctrinate' the masses too. Can't leave them out, they're so crucial.

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## EjazR

*IBNLive : Paarull's Blog : Kashmir and Palestine*

We're in Jerusalem. "I'm from Kashmir", our journalist friend makes his first tentative approach to a couple of Palestinian men. "You pray for us, we'll pray for you", they reply. The conversation is over. The Palestinians are in no mood for a chat.

I'm not a party to this conversation but our group of Indian journalists has a quick laugh when it's relayed to us. So much for `solidarity to the cause'. But I also sense the frustration lurking behind that remark.

I see frustration when I'm at Aida (the word is Arabic for Return). It's a Palestinian refugee camp in Bethlehem city, West Bank. Young kids, some not older than 8 or 9, are filling water trickling out from a rusty tap. Our guide says they stay thirsty for days because Israel controls the supply and chooses to consume a bulk of the water, leaving very little for the Palestinians. Even discounting for propaganda, living in a camp for as long as you can remember can't be fun. (The Kashmiri Pandits will tell you the same, by the way).

I see a school with no window panes, it's boarded up on one side. The refugees worry about Israeli missiles blasting through the glass, hurting their kids. The camp has no tent - it long ago made way for Lajpat Nagar-like hovels, a family to a room, shared among lots of brothers and sisters. Karim, who shows us around, points to "those nice buildings at the top of the mountain. They are the Israeli settlers who came to steal our lands. Each family has an apartment". I smell despair.

And then there's the Wall that cuts through their homes, villages and factories - and the Israeli Defence Forces at every checkpoint. Frisking for a belt packed with explosives.

For Israelis, the wall is an anti-terror fence which has successfully kept many suicide bombers away, beginning 2003. There were only 614 attempts at suicide bombing last year, the government says proudly. For the Palestinians, the wall/fence is a visible symbol of occupation. It's also a major source of inconvenience for those who travel within West Bank and to Jerusalem and back. They ask, "If Israel needs it, why don't they build it on their side?".

Both are right.

I'm in the occupied territories the week Kashmir is on the boil. It makes me think of the Kashmiris who're out getting shot by the men in khakhi. Even in the rest of India, a Kashmiri risks being frisked more than the rest of us. For some others, a Kashmiri is a suspected terrorist - until proven innocent.

I see the similarities in the narrative of Palestine and Kashmir.

Yes, there are similarities even though 'azadi' for Kashmir is not on the table - while Israel recognises the Palestinians' right to a nation. There are similarities even though status quo will likely be a final solution for the Kashmir problem (i.e Pakistan keeps *** and India keeps what it has) while Israel will eventually pull out from West Bank.

I see similarities not just because India is being embarrassed by Kashmir and Israel is being embarrassed by Gaza. But because I hear the same words over and over again - dignity, humiliation, occupation, terrorism, militancy, rage, anger, human rights violations.

Both are conflicts over land, with water now creeping into the discourse. Blood spilled - of countless innocents - and of 'martyrs' and brave soldiers. Both Israel and India are prickly about UN involvement. And both India and Israel lack a credible peace partner on the other side. Israel is unable to do business with Hamas -- because Hamas is either unwilling to or unable to control terror from Gaza which is under its control. It's radicalized. And it's resolutely opposed to Israel's existence. India faces the same problem with Pakistan. Elements within its Army are determined to sponsor terrorism, determined to break India up as revenge for Bangladesh.

But most importantly perhaps, parties to both conflicts are guilty of perpetuating them by missing opportunities, turning a blind eye to misgovernance, fostering a political vacuum and taking recourse to terrorism to widen the trust deficit.

If West Asia had its Camp David in 2000, seven years after the peace process officially began, we had our 2004-2007 period (coinciding with the composite dialogue) when the UPA led by Dr Manmohan Singh and General Musharraf made quiet progress on Kashmir.

Cut to the present. We have Omar Abdullah playing Emperor Nero. The marginalisation of a mainstream opposition. The Centre squandering goodwill. The security forces thoroughly discredited. The revival of Syed Ali Shah Geelani and the resurgence of the Dukhtaran-e-Millat.

Where did the millions of rupees in development funds go? The funds for jihad, by the way, too are believed to have gone into private pockets. Conflict, you see, is good business for some. In a year when we should have built upon the gains of a successful election, we gave them fake encounters and botched-up investigations. And when, driven by despair, the Kashmiri picked up a stone - he got a fatal bullet from a confused and clueless security force. But the leadership saw nothing, says nothing. And there could be more trouble on the horizon - if a largely secular movement turns radical, if the Kashmiri picks up the gun again.

If that happens, we would only have ourselves to blame. Just like the Palestinians blame themselves.

A thoroughly insensitive and corrupt Yasser Arafat regime raked in billions of dollars in international aid. The Palestinian Authority - led by Fatah -- squandered its chance at governance in West Bank and Gaza. Jericho, handed over by Israel to the PA, got a casino before it got a hospital. "The occupied territories got dozens of armed militias, people never saw the billions and were denied basic freedoms", says Khalid , an Israeli Arab journalist of Palestinian stock. In 2006, Hamas swept to power in Gaza. The Palestinians had wanted change, you see. Today, Israel is worried. Hamas is such bad news for Israel that it is almost grateful for having to deal with the PA, praising the security co-operation it offers to manage West Bank!

Hamas has also damaged the Palestinian cause. The deputy mayor of Bethlehem, a Fatah leader, admits, "Terror won't help us achieve our goals, people are suffering under Hamas in Gaza". A large Kashmiri cross-section is only too aware of the damage Pakistani-sponsored terrorism and jihad for Kashmir has done to their cause. India will want it to stay that way. In return, it has to clean up its act. It can start by stopping the killings.

Every policeman and soldier who kills an innocent must be punished. As for riot control, there's a wealth of technology that Israel has developed which we can assess for our use -- like an armoured car that fires small stones back, The Shout - an acoustic weapon, a speaker that deafens anyone near it, a sticky net that can be dropped from a helicopter to round up a huge group, paint guns and guns with stinky pellets to identify riot leaders long after a protest is over. The Israelis learnt from the 2nd initifada, we must learn from the 2010 uprising.

So here's where we stand.

The Israelis and Palestinians and the Indians and Pakistanis now find themselves being nudged by President Obama to return to the talking table. I hear many Israelis say "Let's wait it out. Maybe we should start seeing the problem with more humility and realise it won't be solved in our lifetime. The gap is too wide. It's not having direct talks that's important, it's what you say." I'm beginning to sense this fatigue vis-a-vis Pakistan in policy circles in Delhi as well, notwithstanding the Prime Minister's push for peace. But we cannot afford to abandon the Kashmiris. The talks with Pakistan can wait, we need to listen to the Kashmiris first.


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## DGMO

Dark Angel said:


> *We havent lost anything just for some few paid goons throwing stones in a Billion strong state u are saying such a absurd thing*


*
Ok, you haven't, all is fine and dandy. Those stone throwers, it's all a mirage, that alienation, is there such a thing? Of course not, they couldn't be more happier.

So easy to misread these things.*


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## Hulk

I do not care about morals as long as we have Kashmir with us. For a nation to be made everyone has to deal with seperatist. USA also did the same where many states did not want to join, China did the same for Tibet, Pakistan for Baluchistan. Now don't tell me Kashmir was referred to UN, that does not make any difference.


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## Hulk

If a small portion of population does not understand that every little group cannot chose their own country then it is their problem. One has to live in real world and Kashmiri's are not living for sure. Even the entire J&K does not want freedom, so now we are saying few districts can ask for Separate country?


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## Prometheus

Gounder said:


> SO what exactly are we talking about here....Indian Occupied Kashmir or Indian Occupied Assam.?



Indian occupied Nagaland,Assam, Khalistan, Kashmir, Deccan, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, Moasitian, Kerala, Hydrabad, Bihar, Orrissa

Did I forgot any other occupied land by India????

Where is this evil India which is occupying all these countries?


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## S_O_C_O_M

Pakistan should move in full force and liberate Kashmiris from barathi tyranny. We won Kargil, still hold on 4 strategic points to this day which india could not reclaim even after sending their entire military. We have more nukes and more powerful nukes than india. Its a sure loss for india.


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## booo

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Pakistan should move in full force and liberate Kashmiris from barathi tyranny. We won Kargil, still hold on 4 strategic points to this day which india could not reclaim even after sending their entire military. We have more nukes and more powerful nukes than india. Its a sure loss for india.



first finish taliban. you can think about india later in your dreams.

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## Leonidas

self delete


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## Prometheus

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Pakistan should move in full force and liberate Kashmiris from barathi tyranny. We won Kargil, still hold on 4 strategic points to this day which india could not reclaim even after sending their entire military. We have more nukes and more powerful nukes than india. Its a sure loss for india.



Plz liberate Khalistan, Assam, Nagaland, Hydrabad, sikkim, Deccan, Tamil Nadu, Bihar, junagarh, Disneyland also.

Thanks for the support


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## Hulk

@S_O_C_O_M you have the right ideas when your strong force will move we will **** in our pants. Like the support you got from Kashmiri's in 1998 yelling on streets to support your army you will get similar support or more for sure. And yes Nukes are just toys that you can play with when you get boared, they are harmless. Which store you bought these nukes Toy's R Us?

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## Sonic_boom

HAIDER said:


> Well, Indian should stop singing the song of democracy, when since 48 7 lakh of Indian army sitting their. Where the* ratio of indian army and population is 10:1*. Pakistan never singing the song of shining democracy.
> In only one place in whole world where there is " Draconian law" made by British is still in Indian occupied state of Assam. Where Army is not question for their action.



Source for such stupid claim?
rest of the post is bs


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## Guynextdoor

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Pakistan should move in full force and liberate Kashmiris from barathi tyranny. We won Kargil, still hold on 4 strategic points to this day which india could not reclaim even after sending their entire military. We have more nukes and more powerful nukes than india. Its a sure loss for india.



 PAKISTAN ARMY TAKING ON INDIA  MAN THAT"S THE FUNNIEST THING I"VE HEARD TILL NOW!!

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## karan.1970

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Pakistan should move in full force and liberate Kashmiris from barathi tyranny. We won Kargil, still hold on 4 strategic points to this day which india could not reclaim even after sending their entire military. We have more nukes and more powerful nukes than india. Its a sure loss for india.



Please dont hurt us.. We are so scared..

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## Sonic_boom

Guynextdoor said:


> PAKISTAN ARMY TAKING ON INDIA  MAN THAT"S THE FUNNIEST THING I"VE HEARD TILL NOW!!



dont reply to socom.Let him enjoy his wet dreams


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## MZUBAIR

Yes India has lost....
People are against them...
And Manmohan have sweats!!!!!


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## RamGorur

civfanatic said:


> This is because you are making an erroneous statement that Res 47 is irrelevant after subsequent UN resolutions. When the case is exactly opposite&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; Hence the most substantive part of UN resolutions is contained in RES 47 and not in subsequent resolutions, which were merely to allow mechanism for plebiscite and therefore needed to reflect political situation on ground.


I must admit, ignorance has its benefits. Now I am beginning to understand the exasperation that GoI representatives must be feeling everytime they talk to the head-in-the-air separatists. If Res 47 is indeed relevant, then all the negotiations at UN are void in the first place, because all those negotiations revolved around those two resolutions in general and resolution of 13th Aug, 1948 in particular. Sir Owen Dixon, Dr Frank Graham, Dr Joseph Korbel, to name a few, were all idiots. 

Res 47 is redundant because; 

(Part A of this resolution was replaced by Part I & II of res of 13th Aug, 1948):

It doesn&#8217;t recognize the fact that PA was directly fighting in Kashmir and hence, there is no provision for cease fire. Res of 13th Aug, 1948 has a specific part (Part I) for cease fire.
It doesn&#8217;t require PA to withdraw, but instead, requires India to reduce its troops to a minimum. Res of 13th Aug, 1948 requires complete withdrawal of PA. 
It requires that the Commission and Plebiscite Administrator shall decide where to place Indian troops. Res of 13th Aug, 1948 doesn&#8217;t require so, for obvious reasons.
It is silent about provocative military build-up on Pakistan&#8217;s side of Kashmir, a key point because that permitted Pakistan to fortify its position in Kashmir at the peril of Indian position. Res of 13th Aug, 1948 requires both India and Pakistan to _&#8216;refrain from taking any measures that might augment the military potential of the forces under their control&#8217;_.
It doesn&#8217;t require any military observer to be stationed in Kashmir. Res of 13th Aug, 1948 appointed military observers, called UNMOGIP, on both sides. They continue to be so appointed.
It doesn&#8217;t require Pakistan to hand over administration of P0K to any &#8216;local authority&#8217;, a key point because it is considered as recognition that Pakistan has no role to play in the administration of P0K. Res of 13th Aug, 1948 requires Pakistan to do so, after its complete evacuation.
(Part B of this resolution was replaced by Part III of res of 13th Aug, 1947 and res of 5th Jan, 1949)

Res of 13th Aug, 1948 and 5th Jan, 1949 require that plebiscite be held, only and only if and when the demilitarization is completed. Demilitarization required complete withdrawal of PA. There is no such provision in res 47.
It requires that Plebiscite Administrator be appointed by Secretary-General of UN without giving India any opportunity to be heard. Res of 5th Jan, 1947 requires Secretary-General to make such appointment only on recommendation of the Commission. That gives India an opportunity to express its opinion on the matter of appointment of the Administrator. 
It gives Plebiscite Administrator extra-constitutional power (e.g. to direct the State of India where to place its Army in Kashmir) and hence places him above the State. Res of 5th Jan, 1947 binds him to the constitution by the specific words, _&#8216;The Plebiscite Administrator shall derive from the State of Jammu and Kashmir the powers he considers necessary for organizing and conducting the plebiscite&#8230;&#8230;&#8217;_
Etc. etc. etc.

Without referring to the many more nuanced differences, one can see that the basic import of Res 47 was severely altered, modified and in most cases reversed, rendering it superfluous. However, Part of the resolution (not contained in Part A and B of the resolution) that appointed UNCIP continues to hold.


> Subsequent UN resolutions were in fact passed to devise methods to achieve the plebiscite as promised in RES 47.


Res 47 itself provided a very detailed mechanism for holding plebiscite. Since it was based on a wrong premise that PA was not involved, everything that followed became void ab initio. This was rectified in those two resolutions after taking into consideration of PA&#8217;s involvement.


> All these subsequent resolutions are therefore rooted in political conditions on ground and that is why language changes from "SHOULD" to "MAY" because in absence of any military pressure from UN that is the only language that UN could have talked .


That is a laughable explanation. UN was well aware of its military ability when it passed Res 47. The reason why change occurred is because of the realization that India, alone can&#8217;t hold a plebiscite under the existing condition without active co-operation of Pakistan.

If this is how the separatists are going to argue, then GoI can sleep easy.


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## civfanatic

indianrabbit said:


> If a small portion of population does not understand that every little group cannot chose their own country then it is their problem. One has to live in real world and Kashmiri's are not living for sure. Even the entire J&K does not want freedom, so now we are saying few districts can ask for Separate country?



Its not a small portion of population , It is a whole population which even the world has granted implicit recognition of nationhood that is demanding freedom .

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## ejaz007

*Quit Kashmir campaign reaches White House*

** Kashmiri people loudly ask Indian troops to quit Kashmir*

ISLAMABAD: Hundreds of Kashmiri Americans spent hours at the Freedom Plaza under the tent before they marched to the White House for Prayers for Peace in Kashmir: A 100-Hour Vigil reminding the world powers that the quit Kashmir is the message that the people of Indian-held Kashmir say loudly to Indian troops.

The participants included people of all ages, representing both sides of the Line of Control and those who would like to see peace and prosperity in region of South Asia. They wanted to send a message to the world powers that Kashmiri people still continued to hope that the UN would implement the resolutions passed on Kashmir by its Security Council.

They wanted to convey to the world that the Kashmiri people believed that the time had come that the UN or the US administration let India know that talks between Pakistan and India must be accompanied by practical measures to restore an environment of non-violence and free from state terrorism in Indian-held Kashmir, the Kashmir Media Service reported. On the occasion, Kashmiri American Council Executive Director Dr Ghulam Nabi Fai said that Kashmir was unmistakably given the pledge by the UN that it will be allowed to decide its own future. Now, bleeding and betrayed, it asks for the pledge to be redeemed, he said, adding that the Kashmiri people expected US President Barack Obama to seize the reality of the dispute as the question of peoples life and destiny.

Let not the US strategic partnership with India validate Indias war crimes in Kashmir, Dr Fai said, and emphasised that Kashmir situation had been met with studied unconcern by the UN and this had given a sense of total impunity to India. It has also created an impression that the UN is invidiously selective about the application of the principles of human rights and democracy, he pointed out.

Attorney Mumtaz Wani said that the human rights violations, being perpetrated by Indian armed troops in Held Kashmir, were deliberate and officially sanctioned. He reiterated that the killings of youngsters and youth signified only one thing that India would like to force the whole population into submission. Kashmiris believe that their cause is genuine which has the international sanctity, he said. app

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

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## PAFAce

This is pure propaganda. The Indian government is desperately trying to give this this latest uprising a color that it can criticize in front of the international community and play victim; but so far, they've failed miserable. They've tried to link this as Pakistan sponsored, but have failed on account that the uprising began when teenagers and infants started dying due to Indian brutality during peaceful protests. Then they tried to make this look like minor protests over minor disputes, but again failed on account that the people responsible for latest ~70 civilian killings in less than 60 days are being let off with slaps to the wrist. In fact they are being re-enforced by the even more brutal Rapid Action Force, which at one point came out wearing United Nations helmets so that the people would stop pelting stones at them (they were reprimanded for this by the UN, and now wear regular Blue color cricket helmets). So now, when all else has failed, they've gone back to the old trick of making this out to be a communal or ethnic uprising of religious extremists. The international community sees right through this farce, and nobody's buying it. The latest uprising is as pure a struggle of freedom as there has ever been.

There was a protest outside the Indian Consulate in Toronto yesterday organized by members of the Kashmiri community, and I was there. We had Sikhs protesting alongside Muslims from the Kashmir Valley, and one thing that was made very clear is that Sikhs in Kashmir don't buy this latest round of BS being spewed.

Anyway, I'll look on Youtube for videos of yesterdays protests. Until then, here are videos of the protests after the Amarnath Land snatch debacle:









And here are some reports from GreaterKashmir.com regarding this very issue of fake threats to Sikhs:
We are safe in Valley: Sikhs
Sikhs integral part of our community: Mirwaiz
SIKHS SMELL FOUL PLAY
Sikhs demand end to killings

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## S_O_C_O_M



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## RamGorur

PAFAce said:


> ...peaceful protests...


So the definition of 'peaceful protests' include stone pelting and destruction of Government properties?


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## RamGorur

from the rant trying to pass off as an article said:


> What does the Indian constitution say about those who want to live in peace, those who dont want to see their kith and kin killed by the CRPF bullets?


Duh!! Abide by the law.


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## wap7

The sooner article 370 is removed, the better. Make J&K a normal Indian state, make people invest there and buy land. The key is to make all religions live there and not just Muslims. 

The young people who throw stones and fight probably have no clue what they are fighting for. They're ruining their own future.

I can assure you this: J&K will be never be separated from India. The rest of the country is not ready for that. And will never be in the foreseeable future.


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## RamGorur

HAIDER said:


> In only one place in whole world where there is " Draconian law" made by British is still in *Indian occupied state of Assam*.


What's next, Haiderji, Indian occupied India?

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## sasuke

OMG ... !!!!

Freedom for Kashmir ... Freedom for Balochistan .... Freedom for all freedom movements


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## PAFAce

RamGorur said:


> So the definition of 'peaceful protests' include stone pelting and destruction of Government properties?


Firstly, very interesting that you chose to concentrate on 2 words of the entire posting. It's often what you choose not to say that says it all.

Secondly, the stone throwing begins after tear-gas and rubber bullets and even live rounds are fired into a crowd consisting not only of young men but also the elderly, women and children. If your mother or father was pelted by rubber bullets in front of your eyes, I'd like to see your reaction. And even if that isn't the case, as you will probably contend. These people have been occupied for 63 years. You imagine being forced to stay in home for 6 days straight, and then tell me that you don't feel like hitting someone.

And in any case, how come the Indian police does not fire at people into the crowds protesting elsewhere in India?


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## RamGorur

civfanatic said:


> Its not a small portion of population , *It is a whole population* which even the world has granted implicit recognition of nationhood that is demanding freedom .


Lie. 

From Chathamhouse survey:


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## gubbi

PAFAce said:


> Secondly, the stone throwing begins after tear-gas and rubber bullets and even live rounds are fired into a crowd consisting not only of young men but also the elderly, women and children.



You Sir, have no idea of ROE.


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## sasuke

In India, peaceful protest has never been an issue in any part of the country, Kashmir included. The only problem is that some madmen go on rampage destroying public property and killing innocent people and they force the Indian forces to use tear gas or at times for self defense, sadly  they are instances of firing of rounds in the air. Obviously, because of some stupid mistakes by Indian army there have been unintentional deaths. 

Getting back to the topic of the thread .... 
The spread of extremist terrorist practices should be traced back to their roots and removed. India shouldn't have such extremist religious practices which are resulting in terrorism. These extremist terrorist practices are just making people more stupid and illiterate through stupid useless education based on conspiracies which is more and more BS.

People in India have to understand that the whole country belongs to everyone in the country. You can't force others to change the religion. I wonder what kind of stupid people do that (even Christianity!)


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## Hulk

@civfanatic it is small portion of people. Population which cannot be equal to population of one state and is expecting to become a country is small only in the context of discussion. When you say whole Jammu gave you kick on your a$$ when you did not allowed your fellow Hindus to get land on temporary basis, so it is clear it is not Kashmir but only portion of people belonging to one religion.
You kicked out Hindus from valley and now trying to tell you are innocent. Dosron ka Haq chinne main koi kasar nahi chodi ayye Haq ke baat karne. Pehele khud insaf karo phir bat karo. Get Hindus back first.

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## Prometheus

PAFAce said:


> Firstly, very interesting that you chose to concentrate on 2 words of the entire posting. It's often what you choose not to say that says it all.
> 
> Secondly, the stone throwing begins after tear-gas and rubber bullets and even live rounds are fired into a crowd consisting not only of young men but also the elderly, women and children. If your mother or father was pelted by rubber bullets in front of your eyes, I'd like to see your reaction. And even if that isn't the case, as you will probably contend. These people have been occupied for 63 years. You imagine being forced to stay in home for 6 days straight, and then tell me that you don't feel like hitting someone.
> 
> *And in any case, how come the Indian police does not fire at people into the crowds protesting elsewhere in India*?



*Farmers protest in UP;Police opened fired, 3 killed, probe ordered*

Aligarh/Lucknow: Three persons, including a PAC jawan, were killed and nine injured near Aligarh when farmers fought pitched battles with police who opened fire to restore calm as the Uttar Pradesh government tonight ordered a judicial probe into the violence. 

Aligarh District Magistrate Rama Rao and SSP Vijay Prakash were also shunted out by the Mayawati government which announced a compensation of Rs five lakh to each bereaved family. 

The violence broke out last night in Jikarpur village when farmers, demanding higher compensation for land acquired for a township, went on a rampage vandalising a police post, indulging in heavy brickbatting and setting afire vehicles. 

The trouble erupted after rumours flew thick and fast that a farmer leader had been arrested near the village which lies close to Uttar Pradesh-Haryana border. 

Police opened fire to disperse the violent protesters and bring the situation under control, said SSP (Aligarh) Vijay Prakash who was transferred this evening. 

B D Palson, SSP of Mathura, which too was hit by the violence, was also shifted. 

Two persons and a PAC jawan were killed and nine injured in the clashes, Uttar Pradesh Additional ADGP (Law and Order) Brijlal told reporters in Lucknow. 

Over 2,000 farmers today staged a sit-in at Jikarpur, the epicentre of yesterday's violence. The protesters also tried to block traffic at several places on Aligarh-Tappal road. 

Vijay Prakash said the farmers this morning destroyed machinery for construction of the Expressway, adding the extent of loss was yet to be ascertained. 

"Taking a serious note of violence in Aligarh and Mathura, Chief Minister Mayawati has ordered a judicial inquiry," Cabinet Secretary Shashank Shekhar Singh said in the state capital. 

A Committee, headed by the Aligarh Divisional Commissioner, would be set up to examine the issue of compensation to farmers, he said. 

The farmers are on the warpath demanding higher compensation for land acquired for a township project along the Delhi-Agra Taj Expressway. 

The ADGP said the situation in Aligarh was now under control. Police and Rapid Action Force were deployed in strength in trouble-torn areas.
Police open fire on protesting farmers in UP, 7 injured
Dated 15 august 2010
*There is a saying ...................you see what you want to see.

and also incomplete knowledge ..................fill up the rest*


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## PAFAce

I guess you're right, Prometheus. I should have written "on a regular basis" after "how come the Indian police does not fire at people into the crowds protesting elsewhere in India".

Also, you seem kind of proud of that news. Something's wrong when all you can think of when defending your actions is cite other times you committed the same crimes.



gubbi said:


> You Sir, have no idea of ROE.


You are correct. Please explain the ROE to me, but before that, please write a letter to the parents of these three 8 and 9 year olds explaining that their children died despite a strict commitment to the ROE on the part of the CPRF.

8-yr old Kulgam boy succumbs
2 more killed, 9-yr old among victims

Also, I can't find the third article which contained a pcture of a 2-year-old girl shot right through the head during a march. Now you could say, "What was a 2-year-old doing at a protest?" That would be a valid question, and a difficult one to explain for someone who has enjoyed freedom all his life to someone who has done the same. But the simplest way to make you understand would be so: if you have access to someone who was around before the partition, maybe your grandparents, ask them whether pro-freedom and anti-Britain rallies and protests were age specific. Ask them whether women and children participated in the struggle. Ask him if, despite being young at the time, they had a desire to do something to help attain freedom. Maybe then you will understand.

*Edit*
Found a picture from our protests yesterday at the Indian Consulate. Notice the Sikhs in the background?

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## RamGorur

PAFAce said:


> Firstly, very interesting that you chose to concentrate on 2 words of the entire posting. It's often what you choose not to say that says it all.


What is interesting is that you some reason think that what I would chose to reply to is not entirely resting upon my volition.



> Secondly, the stone throwing begins after tear-gas and rubber bullets and even live rounds are fired into a crowd consisting not only of young men but also the elderly, women and children. If your mother or father was pelted by rubber bullets in front of your eyes, I'd like to see your reaction. And even if that isn't the case, as you will probably contend. These people have been occupied for 63 years. You imagine being forced to stay in home for 6 days straight, and then tell me that you don't feel like hitting someone.


Clueless is the word that comes to mind.



> And in any case, how come the Indian police does not fire at people into the crowds protesting elsewhere in India?


Clueless, once again. The most recent (2008) shameful incidence of police firing that killed 11 (official claim is 11, unofficial claim is close to 100) happened at Nandigram, West Bengal. I can give you a long list, but I understand that it will be futile. You know how to google, don't you?


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## civfanatic

I have opened this thread to Discuss how indian media treats protests in Kashmir and the motivation behind that ..



> *TOI brings Islam into Kashmir imbraglio*
> 
> 
> By Ghulam Muhammad
> 
> As a gift of Indias 63rd Independence Day, Time of India has once again targeted Indian Muslims for their grave sin of adopting Islam as their religion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TOI published an article on August 15, 2010 in its print edition, penned by TOIs own special hatchet-man, bearing a Muslim name, but sold out to his employers in churning out articles that do not reflect either the truth or the real aspirations of Indian Muslims, whom TOI had directly addressed its exhortation.
> 
> By selecting the headline: Geelani should re-read Islam, Mohammed Wajihuddin and TOI have challenged Indian Muslims in general to interpret Islam, as per the guidance of the Jain owners own agenda.
> 
> However, the Kashmir problem which is being discussed interwoven into the narrative, has nothing to do with Islam. It is a movement against the oppression of a government run by a hawkish oligarchy that is so drunk with the power of army, that it has no need to treat its supposedly own people as human beings. Can the modern media-linked world remain calm if 50 protestors are killed by security forces within a fortnight in any part of the world?
> 
> The name of democracy, freedom and secularism is repeatedly abused in legitimizing an obnoxiously oppressive regime on people that are not necessarily of the same colour, race, religion, social status and/ethnicity as the ruling elite.
> 
> To make Kashmir, an issue of Islam, Wajihuddin has blatantly sidetracked the grievances of Kashmiris as articulated at least in large part by Ahmed Shah Geelani, whose personal antecedent is only incidental as his word of peace that brought the stone-pelting youngsters from the streets of curfew-imposed Kashmiri towns and villages, to call off their street violence, has more to do with Geelanis steadfast opposition to New Delhi, which has for all practical purposes imposed an occupation army on the state.
> 
> *By bringing in Islam, Wajihuddin and TOI are trying to sidetrack the whole issue of legitimate public protests against the brutal stranglehold of a web of so-called security regime, whose mind-set has been most pronouncedly for decades that of an occupied force holding on to a conquered people*.
> 
> Wajihuddins line up of the 3 Islamic scholars to bolster his agenda against Islam, themselves have not been able to establish any linkages between the current political upheaval and Islam.
> 
> Maulana Wahiduddin Khans narration of an stray incidence has nothing to do with any Islamic content to his political views that with the so-called independence, if at all granted to Kashmir, Azad Kashmir will be a failed state. That verdict is a political judgment and has nothing to do with his Islamic scholarship.
> 
> The same is the case with Wajihuddins other favourite Islamic scholars, who are bringing in the subject of Islamic fundamentalism and extremism to legitimize the fundamentalism and extremism of the Indian security elements in Kashmir.
> 
> Sultan Shahin has an axe to grind against Islamic radicals and his vision is so blurred that he cannot see that the problem of Kashmir is not of the making of any Islamic fundamentalist; though they, the radicals may try to hijack it as such. It is a straight forward problem of governance of a people that do not see eye to eye with their distant rulers who have made their everyday lives fraught with fear and despair and that too for over half a century.
> 
> By trying to sideline the real problem from the real life miseries, and shift the focus to Islam and its radicals, TOI and Wajihuddin are in fact rendering a disservice to India itself.
> 
> Unless the rulers are made aware that the protests mounted by genuine victims of Indias heavily oppressive army presence in every nook of corner of their communities, is not emanating from Islam, all efforts if any by the ruling coterie at the helm of affair in New Delhi, will only buy time for a further later postponement of the real problems till outsiders intervene. If India is constitutionally secular, the basic logic of its solutions for Kashmir has to be on the lines of secular principles and not on the confrontational lines of Islam v/s Hindutva, as TOI would like to have it.
> 
> Wajihuddin holds that  The demand for a separate or Pakistani Kashmir is based on a skewed, selective reading of Islam. He brings in Geelanis supposed ideological mentors, Jamaate Islams founder Maulana Abul Ala Maududi and Egyptian scholars Syed Qutub and Hasan al Banna before him who propagated the theory that Islam wanted Muslims to strive and establish an Islamic state. But the exclusivitism idealized by some Islamic scholar does not hide the fact that it is a basic human instinct. Did not Nehru, Patel and other Congress leaders, agreed to partition as they wanted the rest of India to be ruled exclusively by them --- the Brahmin ruling class? So why then merely demonise Muslim scholars. This is age-old and universal and almost human phenomenon. History is unfortunately replete with incidents where the need to go exclusive has been the real motivations to lead to both victories and disasters. Are US and Zionists not trying to impose their New World Order to achieve exclusive power to rule the world on their terms?
> 
> It is another matter that in India, Congress leaders did not succeed in achieving the exclusivity that they had planned by wholesale transfer of entire Muslim population to the other side. But short of that, have they not succeeded gaining effective and practical exclusivity by continuing to discriminate, de-legitimise and corrode Muslim citizenship in India. It started with Indias first President Rajendra Prasad passing a decree to exclude Muslim Dalits from any reservation equations, even if they were backward and Dalit. It started with Indias first home minister Sardar Patel issuing secret memo to all security agencies in the land to weed out Muslims. Why Wajihuddian and TOI does not raise its truth should prevail campaign against that Brahmin exclusivity instead of crying over Maududis call for Muslim state which is hardly relevant to India or Kashmir?
> 
> Wajihuddin has a point that the argument that the Muslim majority Kashmir must either go to Islamic Pakistan or become a separate, sovereign Islamic state defies the Valleys own history. That ethos is still thriving when Geelani wants Kashmiri Brahmins to come back in full peace, honour and brotherhood. In Kashmir, if the so-called fundamentalist Muslim like Geelani extends a welcome to Brahmins, he has peoples trust to see that happen in toto. Kashmir has been an island of communal harmony for ages, till outsiders spoiled the paradise. That outside influence has to be neutralized, in whatever shape or form, for Kashmir to turn again into a Paradise on earth.
> 
> Times of Indias separate agenda of demonizing Muslims and Islam keeps popping up, as the editors and owners seems to have built up a constituency that thrives on hate and division. Their communal management of public issues vital to the integrity and security, by bringing in extraneous divisive misinformation to their extensive readership of the nation, needs to be condemned and checked with appropriate actions by the government in the best interest of the country.



TOI brings Islam into Kashmir imbraglio :::: ndChronicle.com


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## Jade

This obsession of Pakistan with Kashmir&#8230;is myopic and surely dangerous to its own existence.

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## RamGorur

PAFAce said:


> I guess you're right, Prometheus. I should have written "on a regular basis" after "how come the Indian police does not fire at people into the crowds protesting elsewhere in India".


That is a strange thing to say. The flip side of that bizarre statement must also be true. Since Police in India doesn't kill 'on regular basis' but on irregular basis, India para-military force should therefore concentrate on killing Kashmiris on irregular basis, just not 'on regular basis'. 

I just puked a little in my mouth.



> Also, you seem kind of proud of that news. Something's wrong when all you can think of when defending your actions is cite other times you committed the same crimes.


It was you who raised this nonsensical argument.


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## Jade

Kashmir is just another state&#8230; if the same things would have gone in Tamil Nadu or UP, police would have acted similarly&#8230;however, I feel police should act more responsibly


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## Prometheus

civfanatic said:


> I have opened this thread to Discuss how indian media treats protests in Kashmir and the motivation behind that ..
> 
> 
> 
> TOI brings Islam into Kashmir imbraglio :::: ndChronicle.com



Pundits long driven out by Freedom fighters .............they are living as refugee in their own country.
Buddhists of Ladakh are pro-India.
Sikhs are getting threats for not supporting freedom fighters
Jain temples got destroyed

whoes left???????//

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## civfanatic

RamGorur said:


> I must admit, ignorance has its benefits. Now I am beginning to understand the exasperation that GoI representatives must be feeling everytime they talk to the head-in-the-air separatists. If Res 47 is indeed relevant, then all the negotiations at UN are void in the first place, because all those negotiations revolved around those two resolutions in general and resolution of 13th Aug, 1948 in particular. Sir Owen Dixon, Dr Frank Graham, Dr Joseph Korbel, to name a few, were all idiots.
> 
> Res 47 is redundant because;
> 
> (Part A of this resolution was replaced by Part I & II of res of 13th Aug, 1948):
> 
> It doesnt recognize the fact that PA was directly fighting in Kashmir and hence, there is no provision for cease fire. Res of 13th Aug, 1948 has a specific part (Part I) for cease fire.
> It doesnt require PA to withdraw, but instead, requires India to reduce its troops to a minimum. Res of 13th Aug, 1948 requires complete withdrawal of PA.
> It requires that the Commission and Plebiscite Administrator shall decide where to place Indian troops. Res of 13th Aug, 1948 doesnt require so, for obvious reasons.
> It is silent about provocative military build-up on Pakistans side of Kashmir, a key point because that permitted Pakistan to fortify its position in Kashmir at the peril of Indian position. Res of 13th Aug, 1948 requires both India and Pakistan to _refrain from taking any measures that might augment the military potential of the forces under their control_.
> It doesnt require any military observer to be stationed in Kashmir. Res of 13th Aug, 1948 appointed military observers, called UNMOGIP, on both sides. They continue to be so appointed.
> It doesnt require Pakistan to hand over administration of P0K to any local authority, a key point because it is considered as recognition that Pakistan has no role to play in the administration of P0K. Res of 13th Aug, 1948 requires Pakistan to do so, after its complete evacuation.
> (Part B of this resolution was replaced by Part III of res of 13th Aug, 1947 and res of 5th Jan, 1949)
> 
> Res of 13th Aug, 1948 and 5th Jan, 1949 require that plebiscite be held, only and only if and when the demilitarization is completed. Demilitarization required complete withdrawal of PA. There is no such provision in res 47.
> It requires that Plebiscite Administrator be appointed by Secretary-General of UN without giving India any opportunity to be heard. Res of 5th Jan, 1947 requires Secretary-General to make such appointment only on recommendation of the Commission. That gives India an opportunity to express its opinion on the matter of appointment of the Administrator.
> It gives Plebiscite Administrator extra-constitutional power (e.g. to direct the State of India where to place its Army in Kashmir) and hence places him above the State. Res of 5th Jan, 1947 binds him to the constitution by the specific words, _The Plebiscite Administrator shall derive from the State of Jammu and Kashmir the powers he considers necessary for organizing and conducting the plebiscite_
> Etc. etc. etc.
> 
> Without referring to the many more nuanced differences, one can see that the basic import of Res 47 was severely altered, modified and in most cases reversed, rendering it superfluous. However, Part of the resolution (not contained in Part A and B of the resolution) that appointed UNCIP continues to hold.
> Res 47 itself provided a very detailed mechanism for holding plebiscite. Since it was based on a wrong premise that PA was not involved, everything that followed became void ab initio. This was rectified in those two resolutions after taking into consideration of PAs involvement.
> 
> That is a laughable explanation. UN was well aware of its military ability when it passed Res 47. The reason why change occurred is because of the realization that India, alone cant hold a plebiscite under the existing condition without active co-operation of Pakistan.
> 
> If this is how the separatists are going to argue, then GoI can sleep easy.



Your Long list of reasons is nothing more than the changed political realities on ground and hence corroborates the point that subsequent UN resolutions were confronted with practical aspects of holding the plebiscite and hence needed to be rooted in political realities on ground. The subsequent UN resolutions have altered and modified RES 47 only in aspects related to practical implementation of plebiscite and not in its basic and substantive aspect i.e. RSD of people in J&K. Your inability to distinguish between two different aspects UN resolutions viz moral, which grants RSD to people of J&K, and practical which was needed to devise a mechanism to implement that right , renders your analysis as logically flawed and no amount of fake indignation and contempt can hide that.


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## Bhushan



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## Bhairava

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Pakistan should move in full force and liberate Kashmiris from barathi tyranny. We won Kargil, still hold on 4 strategic points to this day which india could not reclaim even after sending their entire military. We have more nukes and more powerful nukes than india. Its a sure loss for india.



One of the most practical,sane comments I have ever read....three cheers to S_O_C_O_M.


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## sasuke

Obsession leads to self destruction! ... anyways people always want what they can't have ... it's all about the have's and have not's.

For the last 60 years ... neither did Pakistan grew nor did it allow India to concentrate on factors that really matters to it. Pakistan has become a big migrane is India. India doesn't consider Pakistan as a formidable enemy, it's more concerned with China developments.


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## Bhairava

civfanatic said:


> Its not a small portion of population , It is a whole population which even the world has granted *implicit recognition *of nationhood that is demanding freedom .



Even if it comes to explicit recognition - india is not going to budge.When will you people recognise that *territorial integrity is paramount* of all.


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## trident2010

India lost Kashmir?? It seems thread starter lost his mind.. lolz


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## Bhairava

civfanatic said:


> Your Long list of reasons is nothing more than the changed political realities on ground and hence corroborates the point that subsequent *UN resolutions were confronted with practical aspects of holding the plebiscit*e and hence needed to be rooted in political realities on ground. The subsequent UN resolutions have altered and modified RES 47 only in aspects related to *practical implementation of plebiscite* and not in its basic and substantive aspect i.e. RSD of people in J&K. Your inability to distinguish between two different aspects UN resolutions viz moral, which grants RSD to people of J&K, and practical which was needed to devise a mechanism to implement that right , renders your analysis as logically flawed and no amount of fake indignation and contempt can hide that.



Your are not replying to this - The UNSC resolutions d*ont give you the right to Independence* - they only say that you will be a part of India or Pakistan.

So how will you get your much cherished "azaadi" since it is not in the option granted by UNSC

p..s: The independence option was dropped on the request of PAKISTAN.


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## Bhairava

civfanatic said:


> TOI brings Islam into Kashmir imbraglio :::: ndChronicle.com



Atleast once ToI has reported the actual ground reality.

When the Kashmiri Hindu Pundits,Buddhists,Jains,Sikhs unanimously support the separatist stand for seccession from India then it will cease to be what ToI has reported..Till then it is.Period.

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## indianpatriot

too lengthy of a worthless bias article !!


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## Bhairava

*Palestine* - UN recognised right to indpendence,*Kashmir* - Un doesnt recognise independence

*Palestine* - Did any ruler formally accede to Israel - NO ; *Kashmir* - the Maharaja formally signed the instrument of accession to make it a part of India.

*Palestine* - are the Palestinians chased out from Palestine- yes ; *Kashmir* - are the Kashmiris chased outfrom Kashmir - no (if the Hindus/Sikhs/Jains qualify as "Kashmiris" then maybe Yes)

*Palestine* - is their territory being occupied by settlers - yes : *Kashmir* - is territory being occupied by Hindu settlers from rest of India - NO
*
Palestine* - do Tanks ,bulldozers regularly demolish homes,buildings - YES ; *Kashmir* - Have Tanks even come once inside SriNagar - NO

*Palestine* - Do attack Helicopters regularly fire missiles at anything moving - YES ; *Kashmir* - Does that thing happen here - NO

*Palestine* - IS any HAMAS leader safe from MOSSAD - NO ; *Kashmir* - IS any hair on the head of a separatist leader harmed - NO .Infact they are given treatment at the taxpayers expense in Delhi and Mumbai


*Palestine *- Do the Israeli police calmly bear all the stones thrown on them - NO ;* Kashmir* - Poor CRPF not even allowed to fire and given only a lathi in hand.

*Palestine* - IS there a shortage of basic materials - YES ; *Kashmir* - one of the least poor states in India with annual assitance going into thousands of crores.

*Palestine* - IS there any blockade of essential supplies in place - YES ; *Kashmir* - NO


Oh yeah,,Kashmir is very similar to Palestine...


P.s.: Paarull is a good journalist..but I dont know what went into her head while writing that piece.

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## Hulk

The Article is right to the dot. These people want Independence only because of religion. Otherwise they have their own CM no one can buy land their what else do you mean by independence?


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## Ganga

After pelting stones at security forces for over a few months now the big question is what did the "youths" achieve.Did India give up Kashmir or did she remove all her troops from the region?Did any of the western power show even a little bit of interest?Now that the situation is slowly stabilizing the people of Kashmir should look back and realize the damage they have done to themselves.Kashmirs main income is tourism and it has taken a huge hit due to the "uprising".Children were not able to attend schools and colleges all this time .People were not able to walk freely on the streets .Was all this necessary at the first pace?The entire thing started when a 16 year old kid was allegedly shot by security forces.(This is what they say ,there is no individual confirmation to this).Even if it is true there was no need for violent protests.People could have protested peacefully.Why should the entire region suffer because 1 boy got killed?


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## Hulk

That too the boy got killed in an accident. He was accidentally killed by a shell of tear gas and only dumb a$$ thinks that was deliberate.


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## Prometheus

civfanatic said:


> Your Long list of reasons is nothing more than the changed political realities on ground and hence corroborates the point that subsequent UN resolutions were confronted with practical aspects of holding the plebiscite and hence needed to be rooted in political realities on ground. The subsequent UN resolutions have altered and modified RES 47 only in aspects related to practical implementation of plebiscite and not in its basic and substantive aspect i.e. RSD of people in J&K. Your inability to distinguish between two different aspects UN resolutions viz moral, which grants RSD to people of J&K, and practical which was needed to devise a mechanism to implement that right , renders your analysis as logically flawed and no amount of fake indignation and contempt can hide that.




out of curiosity................why are only muslims from only Valley protesting?????

why not muslims of leh ladakh out on streets???
why isnt Hindus and Sikhs and Bhudhists on streets???
why were Pundits driven away from valley?arent they kashmiris???

Keep a hand on heart and plz come back to topic.
topic is about threats to minorities of valley

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## Prometheus

*India has lost Kashmir*

we should check lost and found box


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## Masterchief

Jana said:


> After failing to stop civilian protests in Occupied Kashmir, India and its terrorist minds in IHK have came up with this idea of floating fake letters in the name of Muslims so that India could pitch Sikhs against Muslims in Kashmir and make it a perfect point to kill more Kashmiris.
> 
> Shame on India



hello jana you are talking as if you researched on this, keep this in mind it wasnt government of india which disclosed the letter, this was sent to the head gurudwara of kashmir, and your favorite man so called freedom fighter mr gilani supported this


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

*3 civilians shot dead by militants in J&K*
Press Trust Of India
Srinagar, August 23, 2010First Published: 14:44 IST(23/8/2010)
Last Updated: 15:06 IST(23/8/2010)

Three persons, including a mother and her daughter, were killed by militants in two separate incidents in Kulgam and Pulwama districts of south Kashmir, police said on Monday. Four militants barged into a house of Mohammad Hussain Gorsi on Sunday night and killed his wife Shakeela (40) and 
related stories
One more succumbs to injuries in Kashmir, unrest toll 63
We are shocked by such a heavy death toll in J-K: Karat
daughter Zareena (19) at Nanmarg area of Damhal Hanjipora, 80 kms from Srinagar, in Kulgam district of south kashmir, they said.
The police has reached the spot and initiated investigations. In another incident, militants killed Ghulam Nabi Wani, an employee in social welfare department, at Chakoora, 45 kms from Srinagar in Pulwama district, last night, the police said. People have condemned the killings, they said.

3 civilians shot dead by militants in J&K - Hindustan Times


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## EjazR

The author should go and talk to Geelani on what he wants and why. Otherwise he will not know what he writing about. Here is the TOI article in full below, and please note that this is precisely focussing on Geelani's vision on Kashmir that is for a so called "Islamic state" not a secular country.

*Separation Anxiety: Geelani should re-read Islam*

_Muslim scholars berate Hurriyat hawk Syed Ali Shah Geelanis attempts to add fuel to the Kashmir fire on Independence Day_

By Mohammed Wajihuddin


Last week, Hurriyat hawk Syed Ali Shah Geelani called to stone-pelting comrades in Kashmir to celebrate August 14 (Pakistans Independence Day) and observe August 15 as Black Day. But the septuagenarian separatist leaders provocative utterances have few takers among Muslim scholars who have studied Islams journey from its birth in the deserts of Arabia to its contemporary status as a religion of 1 billion-plus adherents. The likes of Geelani, these scholars say, are not just the enemies of Kashmir, but bad followers of the faith too.

To the stone-pelting boys in the streets of Srinagar and Sopore, the hawks have sold a rosy dream: Pakacceded Kashmir will be a haven of peace where they can freely practise Islam and preserve their culture. But the scholars rebut this, calling it nothing but a chimera which will lead to the already bleeding Valleys destruction.

Noted Islamic scholar Maulana Wahiduddin Khan who has written prolifically on the Kashmir issue for over four decades records an interesting and instructive incident in his seminal work Amane-Alam (Peace for The World), first published in 2004. Khan writes that in the early 1990s two educated Kashmiri youth who were not militants, but condoned acts of militancy against India, met him at his New Delhi home. Khan tried to convince them that their struggle was neither Islamic nor would it bring any freedom. The boys, recalls Khan, insisted they were on the verge of achieving a spectacular success soon. A shocked Khan offered the boys his diary to write it. The boys wrote: The Kashmir which will be created after separation from India will be an Islamic Kashmir, Insha Allah. Khan told them it was an illusion and while they were still there, he penned in the same diary his own thoughts: If a separate Kashmir is ever created, it will neither be an independent Kashmir nor a Pakistani Kashmir. It will be a barbad (destroyed) Kashmir. The Kashmiris have only two choices, an Indian Kashmir or a destroyed Kashmir.

Sultan Shahin, editor of NewAgeIslam.com, a popular portal which strives to reclaim Islam from the clutches of jihadists, provides a perspective on why an independent or Pakistani Kashmir can never be established and why it wont survive if it does. Shahin, a virtual warrior against petrodollar Islam, says he recently had a heated argument with a Pakistani friend at an international conference. When a muezzin calls for prayers, my mother tells me to go to a mosque. But I am sure your mother pleads with you not to visit the mosque because she is not sure if you will return alive from there, Shahin told his Pakistani friend. This is the reality, he elaborates. Kashmir too will be sucked into the cycle of sectarian and linguistic violence that is bleeding Pakistan almost every day. India can and should give greater autonomy to Kashmir, but for well-known reasons, it cannot afford to lose the state.

The demand for a separate or Pakistani Kashmir is based on a skewed, selective reading of Islam. It was Geelanis ideologue, Jamaate-Islamis founder Maulana Abul Ala Maududi and Egyptian scholars Syed Qutub and Hasan Al Banna before him who propagated the theory that Islam wanted Muslims to strive and establish an Islamic state. Fed on a heavy dose of such exclusivism, Geelani and his ilk find life in a non-Islamic state oppressive.In an interview, the separatist leader had once declared: For a Muslim to live in a non-Muslim-dominated society is as difficult as it is for a fish out of water.

Scholar Asghar Ali Engineer calls such Islamic supremacist ideology a complete antithesis of Islam. The Quran never asked Muslims to live only in an Islamic state. It simply asks followers to establish a peaceful, compassionate society, says Engineer. He maintains that Kashmiris disenchantment with India should be justly addressed but adds that most Kashmiris dont love Pakistan either.

The argument that the Muslim-majority Kashmir must either go to Islamic Pakistan or become a separate, sovereign Islamic state defies the Valleys own history. While many Muslims in North India might have backed Jinnahs two-nation theory, the Kashmiris by and large had rejected it. Sheikh Abdullahs Muslim Conference was rechristened National Conference to eschew exclusivism and broaden its acceptability. The Kashmiriat (Kashmirs distinctive culture) that the separatists want to preserve can be preserved only in a secular, democratic, multicultural India, explains Akhtrul Wasey, who teaches Islamic Studies at Jamia Millia Islamia. Geelani should re-read Islam.

And when he does it, perhaps the hawk will realise that patriotism is part of the Muslim faith, not something to be tossed out of the window in the hope of a chimeric Islamic state.

Source: The Times of India

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## EjazR

Well first of all title is wrong, its the local police and CRPF that is involved in Crowd Control not the Army. Army is not even in civilian areas. 

Secondly, Israelis use NLW for crowd control??!! They use fighter jets, helicopter gunships and phosphorous bombs. Their death toll for the recent Gaza raid which lasted two months was 1100+ Palestinians to 13 Israeli soldiers. Houses were bombed and demolished. 
Seriously its an insult to the Palestinians to equate their suffering to whatishappening here altough it does not diminish the fact that Kashmir people are suffering too.


Ofcourse even though the IA is not involved in crowd control, it has to face a hostile press which is btw freely operating in Kashmir valley. Here is an example of clarification that the paper published yesterday when it alleged that the Army was involved in crowd control and beating up villagers.



> *Army clarifies*
> Rising Kashmir News
> Srinagar, August22: Army on Sunday clarified that the personnel of 50 RR did not beat shopkeepers at Pampore as was reported in Saturday issue of Rising Kashmir on Saturday. Army spokesperson said the news is not based on facts.
> 
> &#8220;Some 50-60 youths and not children were involved in the pelting of stones on army vehicles at Kadlabal and Pampore on Srinagar- Jammu Highway and also on shops which were defying the bandh given by the separatists on the afternoon of Friday. When the mobile patrol of 50 Rashtriya Rifles battalion reached the spot these stone pelters fled the spot and in the ensuing commotion Reyaz Ahmad was pushed by the fleeing mob and not the army. The army did not ever raid any locality subsequently and no civilian including Ahmad, owner of Reyaz News Agency, was ever beaten by the army as reported in your news paper. The facts can be verified from the residents of Kadlabal locality in Pampore, civil administration authorities, prominent persons of the area and the doctors at Sub District Hospital, Pampore,&#8221; spokesperson said.
> 
> &#8220;Ahmad is in perfect health and was seen selling newspapers from his shop the next morning. No condemnation whatsoever has been issued by the Auqaf Committee, Pampore and same has been verified,&#8221; spokesperson said.
> 
> The army spokesperson said, &#8220;The army has cordial relations with the civil population of Pampore and they by and large appreciate the role of army in maintaining peace and tranquility and keeping the Jammu Srinagar highway open even in the last few weeks of unrest.&#8221;

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## EjazR

*Attack on MLA Sopore?s house foiled: Police*
Rising Kashmir News
Srinagar, August 23
Police on Monday claimed to have foiled yet another militant attack on the house of MLA Sopore Muhammad Ashraf Ganai.

According to statement issued here, a police spokesman said during the intervening night of August 21 and22, militants fired at the resident of MLA Sopore and his guards retaliated.
No loss of life has been reported in the incident. Police has registered a case in this regard, he said.This is for the six times in the past one month that militants targeted Ganais house. On the intervening night of 18 and19 August, militants attacked his house injuring three of his PSOs one of which later succumbed.


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## Hulk

Freedom fighters trying to kill Kashmiri MLA because he has different views. How innocent these freedom fighter are?


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## sasuke

Just reading the article shows how chaotic and uncertain the youth in Kashmir are. 


Source: Kashmir's 'Azadi' with the tricolour : India : Tarun Vijay : TOI Blogs



> Sushma Swaraj stunned the students from the valley on August 18 with the question "tell me what idea of the so-called 'azadi' you have and I shall speak after that". The students decided to have one among them to define what they thought about the concept of freedom they were seeking for Kashmir. Sarmad said: "We want to include Gilgit, Baltistan, Jammu and Ladakh in 'Azad Kashmir' and will have friendly relations with Pakistan and India." Some others tried to interject with more ideas. There was no clear voice that could describe what they mean by "azadi" when they chant it.
> 
> Now the leader of the opposition explained in a motherly way that they were all like her children. She said: "So, son, first decide what you want. Some want to remain independent, some want Gilgit and Baltistan, some want to go with Pakistan. No one is clear. You already have Jammu and Ladakh; enjoy an autonomy which is not available to any other Indian state. Gilgit and Baltistan you can't have without getting into a scuffle and that may lead to a war. The best 'azadi' that all of you enjoy is with the tricolour. The Indian Constitution provides everything that a citizen can aspire for. It has space for all the shades and opinions within its framework. Look at the educational and technological advances other Indian states are making and see the number of Kashmiri youths coming out of the valley to take advantage of it  in Bangalore, Chennai, Mumbai and Delhi. That's the freedom of development and reaching the sky for lifetime achivements." She brillinatly punctured the 'azadi' fumblings and made Manjoor Yusuf, a braveheart student from Srinagar, to come to the dais and declare: "It's wrong to say that all Kashmiri Muslims want 'azadi'. We want our future with India. It's a great country and in the last election 61% of the citizens of Kashmir cast their votes. India, not Pakistan, is our destiny." The atmosphere changed in a second. A small section of "azadi" seekers couldn't say anything except jeering at the Indian voice from Kashmir. He later complained that some of the students threatened him, "but I am not scared, sir". He was firm.
> 
> Smriti Irani, actor (Tulsi) and national president of the BJP's women's wing, charmingly disarmed the separatism advocates. "Azadi  What for and how? By making innocent kids and young people leave their homes and pelt stones on soldiers who are guarding the nation under their constitutional duty? Why should you not be concentrating on making the education system better and responsive? All the separatist leaders including Gilani and Andrabi send their children to various Indian cities and abroad to get the best education and settle down as progressive persons, but make the valley youth cannon fodder for their nefarious games, played and funded by Pakistan. Why don't you see the game?"
> 
> 
> The Kashmiri Hindu students, like Radhika Kaul (just about to leave for Yale University) asked why none from Jammu or Ladakh supported what they said and wanted to be distanced from all their claims. "Why none of you ever, even in passing, refer to the pains and aspirations of these two areas which you think form an essential part of your so called 'Azad Kashmir'?"
> 
> "Your 'Azad Kashmir' remains a small, marginalized cry of a section of stone pelters in the valley alone," said Aditya Kaul. Utpal Kaul  born, brought up and educated in Srinagar  reminisced about his student days, about his Muslim teachers and the tradition of "Dal Cross" and "Wooler Cross" by girl students too who had pretty good hockey and tennis teams. "Where has all that vanished? Why do you want to be just confined to a small area of the valley? Give leadership to the Indian Muslims. Where is the space of Indian Muslims on your radar?" Prof Fouzia too became emotional and said: "We always had the tradition of mosques and temples existing side by side." To this, Aditya wanted to know, where have all the temples gone now? Thousands of them have been demolished and graffiti in foul language written against Hindus on their half-burnt walls. Why none of them ever protested against such happenings?
> 
> Editors' interaction with the students hinged on how political aspirations are taking a turn in the valley. Chandan Mitra of the Pioneer, Rajesh Kalra of the Times Group and Shoma Chaudhry from Tehelka tried to understand and put forth their viewpoints about Kashmir's problems and their solutions. Shoma spoke about the new wave of political demands in the valley and termed stone pelting too as an expression of anger. Chandan predictably took the nationalist line and tried to explain how the Indian democracy is the best framework. "Be part of a larger Indian milieu and everything can be sorted out," he emphasized. Large sections of Muslim students, apart from those who came from Islamic University nodded in affirmation. Rajesh Kalra asked students about their academic pursuits and their dreams. He said that unless they joined the mainstream of a struggle within the Indian framework how could they think they could excel in their lives.
> 
> The thrilling part was the arrival of the seven young turk membes of Parliament belonging to various political parties.
> 
> Harsimrat Kaur Badal was at her eloquent best. She narrated emotionally the trauma Punjab had gone through during the Khalistan movement. How every Sikh was a suspect, how young Sikhs were killed as suspects by the security forces and the massacre of 1984. "But gradually we all felt separatism was not an answer, it gave nothing but blankness, a black hole. Today Punjab youths are in the grip of drugs and all sorts of negative traits, a direct fallout of the insurgency. Punjab lost its vibrant, dynamic youth in a movement that was self-defeating." "And listen," she turned a tigress, "I am not from the Congress or the BJP, but I am an Indian and as an Indian I must clearly tell you that till the last Indian is alive, no one will ever allow Kashmir to secede from us. It's an integral part of us, of India." The conference room rose to hail her with roaring claps. The voices of "azadi'' had no answer. Neeraj Shekhar asked: "How many of you have voted in the last elections?" Islamic University students said in unison: "No one." "Why?" asked Neeraj. They said: "Because the elections are always rigged, so we have no faith in them." This was contested again by Manzoor Yusuf, who said 61% of Kashmiris voted in the elections. "That means you do not represent the majority." Aditya pointed out: "A known separatist leader, Bilal Lone, contested the election and lost his deposit. It means the majority of Kashmiris do not like separatists."
> 
> Priya Dutt said in her inimitable style: "Why on earth you declare first that you are not an Indian and then ask for more? How can one come on a dialogue table with a baggage of preconceived notions and then begin with riders? We are with you, we understand your pains and sorrows, we share your grief and demands for justice, but that can be met only under an Indian constitutional framework. And no one, no party or ideology or shade of belief, can ever give you 'azadi'. Take it today as firmly as possible."
> 
> Anurag Thakur, the young turk from Himachal who is also the president of Himachal Cricket Association and national president of the BJP's youth wing, spoke from the heart: "We are with you on every issue that creates pain or anguish, but as Indians. Nothing can ever be discussed beyond the parameters of our Indianness. We are talking to you not because you are different but because you have always been a part of us, an inalienable story of a larger Indian epic." Madhu Yashki narrated his own story from Andhra Pradesh, where he too was witness to the demand of a Telangana state. "It never pays to be an extremist, trust me. Our destinies and dreams are best protected under the umbrella of our Indianness."
> 
> Jayant Chaudhary was candid. "You want peace, right?" And everyone nodded. So friends, peace as I read somewhere, is like lovemaking. You have to keep your eyes shut and let the process take its course. Coming on a dialogue table with preconditions spoils the game. Then he said: "Tell me why some of you want azadi." The students, voicing separatist threads, fumbled, "Pandit Nehru had promised a plebiscite." "But that was to be held without any demographic changes. The valley has gone tremendous change in its population contours, with Hindus ousted and people from across the border rehabilitated post-1947," retorted Radhika Kaul.
> 
> None could explain why they want "azadi"; none could reply why Ladakh and Jammu remained absent from their worldview. Students who wanted "separation" were not keen to listen to the voices of Indianness from their own Muslim brothers and sisters from Srinagar. They said that even the 2002 and 2008 elections  universally hailed as free and fair, including by UN observers  were rigged.
> 
> "We have a lost generation in the valley, fed from their early childhood that they are different, hence they have, a separate flag, a separate constitutional provision and they do not belong to India as Bihar and Assam do. Some of the students claimed Kashmiris were a different race and a different "kaum" unlike Indians. I said: "Read at least Sheikh Abdullahs biography, 'Atishe Chinar', in which he traces his roots, two generations back, to Kaul Hindus. There are Rainas, Kauls and Bhatts this side, exiled from their homes, and Rainas, Kauls and Bhatts on the other side. Why the divide just because one has a different way of worship?"
> 
> Ram Madhav, national executive member of the RSS, shared his views and took difficult questions with aplomb, asserting the age-old unity of Jammu & Kashmir with India. "We can never think to have Kashmir separated from India at any cost," he asserted. "We would like every person in J&K to prosper and have a government of his choice within the framework of the Indian Constitution."
> 
> This dialogue could happen because Prof Siddiq Wahid and Prof Fouzia Kazi were among the believers in resolving issues through talks. I wish I were a student of Dr Fouzia, who was so articulate and spoke with great maturity and élan. The same goes for Prof Wahid. The students were brilliant, and put forth their views assertively and decently. The dialogue has convinced us that there are people in the valley who believe in sharing the views rather than stone pelting and killing. No bullet can ever find a solution to a complex problem and building bridges in spite of all hurdles and challenges remains the course of a civil society. That has to be supported from both sides, though. The vice chancellor, Prof Wahid, invited us to continue the dialogue in Srinagar, in his Islamic University of Science and Technology. We have accepted the invitation. Friends are made. Sinead Kachroo of Aman Satya Kachroo Trust shared the feelings of Kashmiri students by offering to wear a black band to mourn the deaths of innocent people in the valley; it deeply touched the hearts of everybody.
> 
> Dr Syama Prasad Mookerjee gave his life in Srinagar for the complete integration of Kashmir with the rest of India. That a thinktank named after him would carry forward the dialogue in Srinagar and in Delhi with those who have a different opinion is a landmark event. That was what Bal Apte, the President of the organization, said, asserting the ancient threads of unity that bind Jammu & Kashmir inseparably with Bharat Vasrha. "We never imagined an India without Kashmir and will never do so." Kashmir se Kanya Kumari tak Bharat ek hai.
> 
> Reaching out and continuing talks can only be a better way out.

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## Hulk

EjazR you are great man.


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## Guynextdoor

sasuke said:


> Just reading the article shows how chaotic and uncertain the youth in Kashmir are.
> 
> 
> Source: Kashmir's 'Azadi' with the tricolour : India : Tarun Vijay : TOI Blogs


Unbiased and true.


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## Hulk

Now these bigots will not protest because unlike police these militants will not spare them hypocrisy.


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## Jade

Yes, even I do have the same doubt...why do certain section of the Valley want "Azaadi".


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## Bhairava

> Harsimrat Kaur Badal was at her eloquent best. She narrated emotionally the trauma Punjab had gone through during the Khalistan movement. How every Sikh was a suspect, how young Sikhs were killed as suspects by the security forces and the massacre of 1984. "*But gradually we all felt separatism was not an answer, it gave nothing but blankness, a black hole*. Today Punjab youths are in the grip of drugs and all sorts of negative traits, a direct fallout of the insurgency. Punjab lost its vibrant, dynamic youth in a movement that was self-defeating." "And listen," she turned a tigress, "*I am not from the Congress or the BJP, but I am an Indian and as an Indian I must clearly tell you that till the last Indian is alive, no one will ever allow Kashmir to secede from us. It's an integral part of us, of India*." The conference room rose to hail her with roaring claps. The voices of "azadi'' had no answer.





> *The best 'azadi' that all of you enjoy is with the tricolour. *The Indian Constitution provides everything that a citizen can aspire for. *It has space for all the shades and opinions within its framework. *Look at the educational and technological advances other Indian states are making and see the number of Kashmiri youths coming out of the valley to take advantage of it &#8212; in Bangalore, Chennai, Mumbai and Delhi. That's the freedom of development and reaching the sky for lifetime achivements."



The two best parts of the program 

Also I would like to salute this brave Kashmiri Manjoor Yousuf for this,



> Manjoor Yusuf, a braveheart student from Srinagar, to come to the dais and declare: *"It's wrong to say that all Kashmiri Muslims want 'azadi'.* We want our future with India. It's a great country and in the last election 61&#37; of the citizens of Kashmir cast their votes. *India, not Pakistan, is our destiny."*


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## karan.1970

Just wait for the encounter theorists to flock to this thread to claim how these civilians were actually killed by sec forces and now their FREEDOM FIGHTERS are being blamed.


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## Hulk

The best part I liked was everyone had different definition of Azadi. So if we give each definition different lable say A,B,C then how can we say all them want Azadi when some want A, some B and some C.


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## linkinpark

Nothing will match this Chilli grenade made of hot bhut jolokia powder


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## RamGorur

civfanatic said:


> Your Long list of reasons is nothing more than the changed political realities on ground and hence corroborates the point that subsequent UN resolutions were confronted with practical aspects of holding the plebiscite and hence needed to be rooted in political realities on ground. The subsequent UN resolutions have altered and modified RES 47 only in aspects related to practical implementation of plebiscite and not in its basic and substantive aspect i.e. RSD of people in J&K. Your inability to distinguish between two different aspects UN resolutions viz moral, which grants RSD to people of J&K, and practical which was needed to devise a mechanism to implement that right , renders your analysis as logically flawed and no amount of fake indignation and contempt can hide that.


After effective withdrawal of Part A and B, exactly which part of that resolution still remains in moral support of your right to self-determination. To forward your point you had quoted B7, remember. If you don't here is the post.



civfanatic said:


> If you read the document carefully, under the heading of plebiscite the following is written (B7)
> 
> _The Govt of India *Should* undertake that there will be established a plebiscite administration to hold a plebiscite as soon as possible on the question of accession of the state to India or Pakistan_
> 
> It is clear from above that according to UN resolutions it is binding upon India to hold plebiscite in Jammu and Kashmir. The part III of resolution is just reaffirmation by India and Pakistan that they agree with international community in this matter. Hence UN resolutions are not only implicit recognition of Kashmiri nationalism by larger international community but also by India and Pakistan .



What you can't get your head around is the fact that changed political circumstances also changed the perception on plebiscite. Try as you may, you will not find any support for your right to self-determination in any of the UN resolutions.


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## INS

*hey man m waiting for Gillanis statement * *

where he is ????*


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## Bhairava

INS said:


> *hey man m waiting for Gillanis statement * *
> 
> where he is ????*



How can he give a statement..?

If he says anything against them..then they ll pump two bullets into his head also.

After all the freedom fighters are not the evil Indian army to sit by and watch stones falling on them.


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## INS

Gounder said:


> *How can he give a statement..?*
> 
> If he says anything against them..then they ll pump two bullets into his head also.
> 
> After all the freedom fighters are not the evil Indian army to sit by and watch stones falling on them.



why not ... i think as far as i know he crying for every civilians dead that was killed by J&K police so why he cant say any thing about this????


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## sasuke

The people are scared of the militants ... why will they protest ... Where's Gilani??? Bloody militants ... they are just losers who can't have a normal life... so they come to destroy innocent people's lifes ...


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## sasuke

Gilani should preach for non-violence movement to achieve their demands .. use of force is destroying civilians lives ...


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## Republic of Pakistan

When Sir William Wallace undertook the long and arduous campaign against the British crown, to free his country Scotland, never were innocent Scots targeted, not even those civilians who were making a living working with the British crown. Only his soldiers who were spying for the English were ever executed. In fact and little known : one of Sir William Wallace's relatives was a tax official for the British. Never was his home invaded and he murdered. 

What am I trying to get at? Successful Independence movements were focused, mindful of collateral damage and public sentiment, and extremely reserved and calculated in their use of force, always reserving and stockpiling in between fighting skirmishes in a professional manner...never did their campaign strike at the heart of England and target civilians or the crown...even though Wallace could have easily done so. His campaign took place almost 750 years ago. A country was born and respected as well as recognized by his worst enemies. Here we are in the 21st century and Kashmiris have not gained a dime. In Kashmir I see everything opposite happening to a successful freedom movement. This is because, in essence, terror organizations have taken the banner of something they do not deserve to represent. Innocents are suffering instead of profiting. When you see innocent people suffering for more than half a century around you...well it is time to revise the game plan. I do know for a fact that at least since the early 80s, militant groups in Kashmir have routinely executed "collaborating" Kashmiri civilians. Not fighters mind you, but honest labourers and day to day bread earners, mothers, wives, daughters, fathers. Militancy is the only party that ever gains anything...the freedom movement always suffers. This is in essence, a terribly managed and executed freedom struggle that is boiling down to outright terrorism at the expense of innocent Kashmiris. I don't side with the Indian viewpoint, but more often than not they have a legal and moral upperhand when terrorism is involved in Kashmir struggle. You don't have to be an agent of the "orange media" to realize basic concepts and draw parallels with the aid of history. Had William Wallace's campaign resembled the Kashmiri movement...Scotland would have never been born...quote me on it.


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## Ganga

indianrabbit said:


> That too the boy got killed in an accident. He was accidentally killed by a shell of tear gas and only dumb a$$ thinks that was deliberate.



I don't know whether it was an accident or not.But what the people are doing is really stupid.


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## Guynextdoor

Republic of Pakistan said:


> When Sir William Wallace undertook the long and arduous campaign against the British crown, to free his country Scotland, never were innocent Scots targeted, not even those civilians who were making a living working with the British crown. Only his soldiers who were spying for the English were ever executed. In fact and little known : one of Sir William Wallace's relatives was a tax official for the British. Never was his home invaded and he murdered.
> 
> What am I trying to get at? Successful Independence movements were focused, mindful of collateral damage and public sentiment, and extremely reserved and calculated in their use of force, always reserving and stockpiling in between fighting skirmishes in a professional manner...never did their campaign strike at the heart of England and target civilians or the crown...even though Wallace could have easily done so. His campaign took place almost 750 years ago. A country was born and respected as well as recognized by his worst enemies. Here we are in the 21st century and Kashmiris have not gained a dime. In Kashmir I see everything opposite happening to a successful freedom movement. This is because, in essence, terror organizations have taken the banner of something they do not deserve to represent. Innocents are suffering instead of profiting. When you see innocent people suffering for more than half a century around you...well it is time to revise the game plan. I do know for a fact that at least since the early 80s, militant groups in Kashmir have routinely executed "collaborating" Kashmiri civilians. Not fighters mind you, but honest labourers and day to day bread earners, mothers, wives, daughters, fathers. Militancy is the only party that ever gains anything...the freedom movement always suffers. This is in essence, a terribly managed and executed freedom struggle that is boiling down to outright terrorism at the expense of innocent Kashmiris. I don't side with the Indian viewpoint, but more often than not they have a legal and moral upperhand when terrorism is involved in Kashmir struggle. You don't have to be an agent of the "orange media" to realize basic concepts and draw parallels with the aid of history.


That's because this 'independance movement' is inherently corrput. When Gandhi launched his stayagraha- one chauri chaura was enough for him to pull the whole thing off. He would not accept one instance of violence. His cause was just so he could keep his moral standards high. Here the cause is unjust. It's an opportunism based on trying to syoke people's hatred through untruths. The love for money is behind it. So the Geelani won't question this or the raping and plundering commited by several militants before. His cause doesn't deserve to succeed because the vision he has for his people is shoddy and unjust. He represents the kind of opportunistic poitical culture that can bring only death and destruction to his people.


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## Republic of Pakistan

Guynextdoor said:


> That's because this 'independance movement' is inherently corrput. When Gandhi launched his stayagraha- one chauri chaura was enough for him to pull the whole thing off. He would not accept one instance of violence. His cause was just so he could keep his moral standards high. Here the cause is unjust. It's an opportunism based on trying to syoke people's hatred through untruths. The love for money is behind it. So the Geelani won't question this or the raping and plundering commited by several militants before. His cause doesn't deserve to succeed because the vision he has for his people is shoddy and unjust. He represents the kind of opportunistic poitical culture that can bring only death and destruction to his people.



Well we must keep in mind that this struggle was born out of a painful birth of two nations, not too long ago. And something very dear (land) was not carefully or even appropriately partitioned (according to both sides today anyways) which left both parties in a "free for all" type of scenario. People who blame the British are just finding faults in useless places, but it is difficult for me to label the entire Kashmir issue as "inherently evil". I think it is inherently natural. The only problem is, the cause and roots of this movement have been hijacked...sooner or later the other party will exploit this weakness and capitalize on the situation. It is as simple as that. Justice, truth, righteousness, morality, etc. etc. are no longer variables in the formula with such a rogue militant outlook on how to achieve freedom. At least in my view.


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## sasuke

surprisingly people who are very active on other threads bashing India are quite .... may be they don't have anything to say in front of truth?


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## KingOfGods

Asim Aquil said:


> bwahahahaha... Seriously? *Indians are now going to allege, stone pelting training camps in Pakistan*?
> 
> Maybe they've been pelting Indian security forces so long that they've gotten good at it! It's all about the numbers which are adding up against India!



May be!!!! As Pakistan gets a Katora (begging pot) in hands, it is quite possible, as now they can't afford to provide AK-47, etc., to these freedom-fighter. Its a cheap (by all means) solution to their deprived financial situation, which cannot support a massive budget for so-called Kashmir Warriors.

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## gubbi

Excellent! I have always pointed out that these so called separatist leaders, these dimwit "aazadi mongers" have nothing to offer to the youth of Kashmir. These idiots are milking the Kashmiri youth's fervor for their own political/religious ambitions - aka power struggle, while sending their own offsprings to far off places to get an education. While the kids of such "aazadi mongers" are getting better education in foreign lands and surprisingly including India, the youth in Kashmir are stagnating due to the constant bundhs!

These people DO NOT have a vision. *Any movement without a vision FAILS!* Idiots who try to see similarities with the Indian freedom struggle do not understand this basic difference! Indian freedom fighters had a vision and the end results are there for all to see.

Its very evident form the answers from Kashmiri youth that they do not have a clear vision and neither do they understand what "aazadi" means. It has also been my personal experience that those Kashmiris who call for "aazadi" have no idea what to do with it. Here's a shocker: one 'highly educated' dude hoped to become the 52nd state of USA!!!! Such idiocy! 

With the youth so disillusioned and misguided, its no wonder that some of these very youth grow up to be "leaders" and show such incompetence with their direction, that its no wonder why Kashmiris are reeling under such social calamities!


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## HAIDER

For those who are not aware Draconian law .



> The human rights situation is very pathetic in the valley mainly due to some factors such as; firstly, draconian laws kept in force by the Indian State in the area. The Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act, 1958, for example, empowers even a non-commissioned officer of force to shoot to kill anybody, if he is in the opinion that it is necessary to do so. They have got total impunity under the Act. Secondly, insensitivity of the other police forces towards the rights of the people. They still operate under colonial Police Act of 1860. Last but not the least is illiteracy and unawareness of the people regarding their rights and duties. A sample survey conducted by Barak Human Rights Protection Committee (BHRPC) indicates that 76% of the people don't know that they have the right to know the grounds of arrest at the time of arrest by a police officer. 78% of the people are not aware that an arrestee must be produced before the magistrate within 24 hours excluding the time of journey. 83% people have no knowledge about the right to free legal aid. 51% believes that it is the fate of an arrestee to be tortured mildly in police custody. 83% of those interviewed told that they think it is not wrong for an arrestee to be handcuffed in all circumstances. 87% of the people have no knowledge about the arrest memo. 65% think that police can arrest women even in the time between sunset and sunrise. So, it is no wonder that rights of arrestee are violated by the security forces in the one way or the other nearly in all cases of arrest, detention and during other pre-trial procedures.



need more sugar ?,,,so please I would say stop using language, which does not match with this forum standards..


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## HAIDER

Isn't not enough, a poor police man shoot the shoe at CM of Kashmir,who is right behind him and providing security. Not enough message ?....


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## civfanatic

To me this piece is an effort to assuage the bruised egos in BJP..The fact is that IUST students have stunned the bjp by thier frank demand of azaadi and seeing these smartly dressed girls and guys so eloquently asking for Azaadi would have shattered thier confidence to hold on to kashmir . All this noise about confusion in student ranks seems to be effort to an attempt at fake contempt to hide bruised egos.

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## Rafael

Guynextdoor said:


> Unbiased and true.



yeah right


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## Chandler

HAIDER said:


> Isn't not enough, a poor police man shoot the shoe at CM of Kashmir,who is right behind him and providing security. Not enough message ?....


But a bigger message was sent by Omar Abdullah himself, as in *this* instance, when he pardoned the (suspended) head constable aka the "Shoe thrower " stating


> The Holy month of Ramzan teaches us to be compassionate and to forgive everyone. My steps are in conformity with the teachings of Islam which does not teach hatred but only love and brotherhood."



And this is actually a smaller part of a bigger message ; that we learn quickly from our past errors, and will connect to satisfy the psyche of the people, the general aspirations of the people. That is the beauty of Democracy. Not only people learn and choose as to who is good for them, but even the elected representatives learn to capture the general mood among the people.

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## prototype

what the hell the thread had reached its 4th page still Kashmir and Pakistan are unable to declare Kashmiri freedom.....r u people such incompetent


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## HAIDER

Yeah Indian already delivered prototype democracy and people of Kashmir are evaluating it. Kashmir freedom is surrounded by state sponsored life saving guards.....


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## sssss

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Pakistan should move in full force and liberate Kashmiris from barathi tyranny. We won Kargil, still hold on 4 strategic points to this day which india could not reclaim even after sending their entire military. We have more nukes and more powerful nukes than india. Its a sure loss for india.



YOU WON KARGIL!?

26th July is celebrated as Kargil Vijay Diwas in India,
You lost Bangladesh out of you,btw what the heck is the size of your military,air force ,navy?Supported by Chinese weapons? and we poor Indians are with American,Russian and Indian.
Sadly we are behind of Pakistan.


Have a look..
Kargil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Result :	India regains control over Pakistani occupied ridges. Pakistan withdrew from Indian-controlled Kashmir to pre-war Line of Control.*
On the left side of the screen...RESULT

_________________________
*Faced with the possibility of international isolation, the already fragile Pakistani economy was weakened further.*[103][104] The morale of Pakistani forces after the withdrawal declined as many units of the Northern Light Infantry suffered heavy casualties.[19][105] The government refused to accept the dead bodies of many officers,[106][107] an issue that provoked outrage and protests in the Northern Areas.[108][109] Pakistan initially did not acknowledge many of its casualties, but Sharif later said that over 4,000 Pakistani troops were killed in the operation and *that Pakistan had lost the conflict*.[7] Responding to this, Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf said, "It hurts me when an ex-premier undermines his own forces," and claimed that Indian casualties were more than that of Pakistan
______________________________
Kargil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You had more casualties,YOU LOST.
Pakistan has never defeated India and i can assure you,it never will.


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## Bhairava

civfanatic said:


> To me this piece is an effort to assuage the bruised egos in BJP..The fact is that IUST students have stunned the bjp by thier frank demand of azaadi and seeing these smartly dressed girls and guys so eloquently asking for Azaadi would have shattered thier confidence to hold on to kashmir . All this noise about confusion in student ranks seems to be effort to an attempt at fake contempt to hide bruised egos.




*These quotes and the bolded parts specially for you.*



> *Sushma Swaraj stunned the students from the valley on August 18 with the question "tell me what idea of the so-called 'azadi' *you have and I shall speak after that". The students decided to have one among them to define what they thought about the concept of freedom they were seeking for Kashmir. Sarmad said: "We want to include Gilgit, Baltistan, Jammu and Ladakh in 'Azad Kashmir' and will have friendly relations with Pakistan and India." Some others tried to interject with more ideas. T*here was no clear voice that could describe what they mean by "azadi" when they chant it.*





> A small section of "azadi" seekers c*ouldn't say anything* except jeering at the Indian voice from Kashmir. He later complained that some of the students threatened him, "but I am not scared, sir". He was firm.




*This is what the Kasmiri Hindus think about your freedom struggle:*



> The Kashmiri Hindu students, like Radhika Kaul (just about to leave for Yale University) asked *why none from Jammu or Ladakh supported what they said and wanted to be distanced from all their claims.* "Why none of you ever, even in passing, refer to the pains and aspirations of these two areas which you think form an essential part of your so called 'Azad Kashmir'?"






> *Your 'Azad Kashmir' remains a small, marginalized cry of a section of stone pelters in the valley alone," said Aditya Kaul.* Utpal Kaul &#8212; *born, brought up and educated in Srinagar* &#8212; reminisced about his student days,
> 
> Prof Fouzia too became emotional and said: "We always had the tradition of mosques and temples existing side by side." To this, Aditya wanted to know, *where have all the temples gone now? Thousands of them have been demolished and graffiti in foul language written against Hindus on their half-burnt walls. Why none of them ever protested against such happenings*?

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## Dash

Sonic_boom said:


> Source for such stupid claim?
> rest of the post is bs


Why are you looking for a source, iam sure he will find 100 sources for this.
Now a days like somebody said, google gives sources like Aliens having chickens...

You know the reality, thats your source.


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## Dash

HAIDER said:


> Yeah Indian already delivered prototype democracy and people of Kashmir are evaluating it. Kashmir freedom is surrounded by state sponsored life saving guards.....


You should visit this thread

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/70256-protesters-kashmir-face-stones.html

Regards,


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## afriend

civfanatic said:


> To me this piece is an effort to assuage the bruised egos in BJP..The fact is that IUST students have stunned the bjp by thier frank demand of azaadi and seeing these smartly dressed girls and guys so eloquently asking for Azaadi would have shattered thier confidence to hold on to kashmir . All this noise about confusion in student ranks seems to be effort to an attempt at fake contempt to hide bruised egos.



Trust me nobody in india is stunned at the call for azadi..!! We hear more about it than the coloured and pirated version you get  We continue to hear the minority voice... just becoz of the indian consitituition.. else these voices might have been silenced long before.. hail indian democracy..and hail indian freedom..!!!!

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## hillman32

*If someone does not know what Azadi or freedom means, he or she should consult a dictionary.

Present Kashmiri movement is led by youth, without support of ISI or hardened Freedom Fighters.

Once youth join a movement it is destined to success. This fact is well known in Indian Hierarchy and that is why they are trembling with fear.

Kashmir may or may not join Pakistan, but it is not going to live with India anymore.

Kashmiri youth has gripped the neck of Indian Establishment who is wrongly proud of some billions of dollars in their kitty.
*


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## SQ8

Guynextdoor said:


> Unbiased and true.



Yes, especially since last night a flight of Pigs flew across India from Goa to Kashmir and performed a beautiful dance number based on "Hagg de India".

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## hillman32

AbuSalam said:


> who wants AZADI when we have the best,Judiciary,Freedom, democracy in the world ? and my Kashmeeri brothers will soon realise this






*You think you have best system that can deliver goodies to Muslims of Kashmir !!!

Have you read the " Sachar Report on Status of Indian Muslims" ?*

Probably NOT !!!!!!!

Plz click of following link and enlighten yourself about your system for Muslims :-

Summarised Sachar Report on Status of Indian Muslims


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## INS

hillman32 said:


> *If someone does not know what Azadi or freedom means, he or she should consult a dictionary.
> 
> Present Kashmiri movement is led by youth, without support of ISI or hardened Freedom Fighters.
> 
> Once youth join a movement it is destined to success. This fact is well known in Indian Hierarchy and that is why they are trembling with fear.
> 
> Kashmir may or may not join Pakistan, but it is not going to live with India anymore.
> 
> Kashmiri youth has gripped the neck of Indian Establishment who is wrongly proud of some billions of dollars in their kitty.
> *



Ok as you say Present Kashmiri movement is led by youth without support of ISI so in past ISI support insurgency in Kahsmir ???


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## Chandler

hillman32 said:


> *Present Kashmiri movement is led by youth, without support of ISI or hardened Freedom Fighters.
> 
> Once youth join a movement it is destined to success.
> Kashmiri youth has gripped the neck of Indian Establishment who is wrongly proud of some billions of dollars in their kitty.
> *


Have you ever read about the Children's crusade ? A nice beginning would be from the Wiki's page *here*. Though the authenticity of the occurrences are questionable, the underlying message is painstakingly clear ; A germ of an idea that has no definite goal or vision can never work. And this is precisely why the youth in trying to reach to their "Holy Land" could drown in the sea of misery.

Kashmiris want "Azadi" ; But then they should not take a myopic view of the few in the Valley ; The idea encompasses the people in Jammu, Ladakh, Azad-Kashmir and Northern Areas as to WHAT is their roadmap for the future _*in case*_ Kashmir decides for self-independence ? Also, the current UN resolutions do not allow for the Independence clause applicable to the state of J&K. If UN itself does not support it, then will they revolt against UN ? Who will argue their case in such a flawed perspective ?

Think over it ; Sometimes, emotions may run high, But nations are built on a bedrock of goals and visions, not jingoism.


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## HAIDER

Well, Indian should admit few facts,which are cause of havoc in the region.
1. Bangladesh meddling. 
2. Occupy Siachin Glacier, which was chain reaction of Kargil.

So, simple at the end of cause of dispute, we find bad intention of Indian govt.


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## Chandler

hillman32 said:


> You think you have best system that can deliver goodies to *Muslims of Kashmir* !!!


 This is precisely the myopic, fundamentalist and sort-of bigoted point of view from your side. Why cannot you, hailing as you do, from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, see the right to "Azadi" from the Kashmiri pov rather than a Kashmiri-Mulsim pov ? Don't you think that in this fight for Azadi other religions do have a say ? Or do you think that only Kashmiri-Muslims feel oppression and others don't ?

I request you once again, please come out of the bigoted view of Muslim-Kashmir and Non-Muslim Kashmir ? Lands are not divisible by religions, People are.


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## r3alist

anecdotal and insignificant, just another article by an indian/hindu on kashmir, what does it mean? nothing.

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## Chandler

r3alist said:


> anecdotal and insignificant, just another article by an indian/hindu on kashmir, what does it mean? nothing.


Exactly, Very Insignificant and then we wonder why Pakistani diplomats start losing sleep, when the EU Report by Emma Nicholson brings down their castles of 
"Kashmir Independence" tumbling down or the Chatham house report that says only around 2% in the whole of J&K state want to join Pakistan.

It definitely was a wake-up call for India, but sadly since our government wakes up only to hustles rather than nudges like the Chatham report, it is in a state of fire-fighting. However, i feel that If Kashmiri people give vent to the right set of problems like Unemployment and Corruption, then the Government will definitely be ready to lend a ear to such issues ; But it is barking up the wrong tree with choirs of "Azadi".


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## sasuke

you guys keep on repeating Azadi Azadi .... please define azadi? What do you intend to do after it ... It shouldn't be a single person view and it shouldn't be your view and it shouldn't be Pakistan's view .... the view should represent the vision of whole Jammu & Kashmir. 

Just stop talking about stuff that you guys don't understand. If you understand try to assess other people views more objectively than trying to live in a shell. 

Many movements are started by youth .... the question being raised is: Do they have a vision in mind or they just on adrenaline rush? While the other students are making their live better the people in the valley are not just progressing forward just because of the constant violence instigated by themselves and by the militants. 

Just look at the recent protests.... thats a huge impact on many people who live on daily markets .... you protest today ... don't do your job and the next day you can't blame the country for your plight. 

People have to stop blaming others for their mishaps.


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## r3alist

Chandler said:


> Exactly, Very Insignificant and then we wonder why Pakistani diplomats start losing sleep, when the EU Report by Emma Nicholson brings down their castles of
> "Kashmir Independence" tumbling down or the Chatham house report that says only around 2% in the whole of J&K state want to join Pakistan.
> 
> It definitely was a wake-up call for India, but sadly since our government wakes up only to hustles rather than nudges like the Chatham report, it is in a state of fire-fighting. However, i feel that If Kashmiri people give vent to the right set of problems like Unemployment and Corruption, then the Government will definitely be ready to lend a ear to such issues ; But it is barking up the wrong tree with choirs of "Azadi".




ha. and the LSE had a report using unnamed and unknown sources claiming this that and the other about isi and pakistan.


i am sure some in chatham house also believe iraq had wmd,is that the best you have? to borrow credibility by leaning on the "name" of other institutions....you joker

---------- Post added at 09:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 PM ----------

*btw, pakistani posters, this is just a response to the heat india is getting in kashmir, please dont take the bait, and let this thread die.....*


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## civfanatic

Chandler said:


> Have you ever read about the Children's crusade ? A nice beginning would be from the Wiki's page *here*. Though the authenticity of the occurrences are questionable, the underlying message is painstakingly clear ; A germ of an idea that has no definite goal or vision can never work. And this is precisely why the youth in trying to reach to their "Holy Land" could drown in the sea of misery.
> 
> Kashmiris want "Azadi" ; But then they should not take a myopic view of the few in the Valley ; The idea encompasses the people in Jammu, Ladakh, Azad-Kashmir and Northern Areas as to WHAT is their roadmap for the future _*in case*_ Kashmir decides for self-independence ? Also, the current UN resolutions do not allow for the Independence clause applicable to the state of J&K. If UN itself does not support it, then will they revolt against UN ? Who will argue their case in such a flawed perspective ?
> 
> Think over it ; Sometimes, emotions may run high, But nations are built on a bedrock of goals and visions, not jingoism.



It is your view that the Kashmirs freedom movement does not have clearly defined goals and vision . And your opinion and seems to be motivated and clouded by usual Bias that a nationalistic Indian is supposed to have .Coming back to Tarun Vijays piece It is clear that it is an extreme effort at self gratification and self indulgance .

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## civfanatic

sasuke said:


> you guys keep on repeating Azadi Azadi .... please define azadi? What do you intend to do after it ... It shouldn't be a single person view and it shouldn't be your view and it shouldn't be Pakistan's view .... the view should represent the vision of whole Jammu & Kashmir.
> 
> Just stop talking about stuff that you guys don't understand. If you understand try to assess other people views more objectively than trying to live in a shell.
> 
> Many movements are started by youth .... the question being raised is: Do they have a vision in mind or they just on adrenaline rush? While the other students are making their live better the people in the valley are not just progressing forward just because of the constant violence instigated by themselves and by the militants.
> 
> Just look at the recent protests.... thats a huge impact on many people who live on daily markets .... you protest today ... don't do your job and the next day you can't blame the country for your plight.
> 
> People have to stop blaming others for their mishaps.



I will simply tell you one thing that when you call a freedom movement that has sustained itself for 60 years , hundred thousand killings , rapes, forced disappearances in the most millatarised zone on planet as adrenaline rush you reveal your deep rooted biases and nothing more .

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## PAFAce

Sad and pathetic attempt to sweep the Kashmir struggle under the carpet. The exact purpose of a plebiscite is to determine what the majority wants. India won't hold a plebiscite, neither will they let the UN hold a poll in the region, neither do they allow foreign media free access to the people in the Valley and so on. The reason they don't allow such is because they do not want the truth to become too popular internationally, which would render such pieces of writing completely ridiculous in most people's eyes.

One thing Kashmiris of the Valley agree on is that, regardless of their vision of Azadi, _They do not want to be a part of India_. The message simply couldn't be any clearer, but you guys can continue being blind, I wouldn't expect anything else from the majority.

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## Patriot

The Indians are in typical denial mode.If Kashmiris are so happy with Indians then why all the protests?Don't give me the the Pakistan Did this bs.There are hundreds of people on streets so i am sure not all of them are Pakistanis.Look they may not want to join Pakistan but they sure want to separate India and that is where our role comes to facilitate that.


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## RamGorur

PAFAce said:


> Sad and pathetic attempt to sweep the Kashmir struggle under the carpet.


Truth is stranger than fiction. 


> India won't hold a plebiscite...


Because conditions subject to which plebiscite were to be held remain unfulfilled and pursuant to Shimla agreement Pakistan agreed to solve it bilaterally.



> ...neither will they let the UN hold a poll in the region...


UN can't hold plebiscite suo motu.



> ....neither do they allow foreign media free access to the people in the Valley and so on. The reason they don't allow such is because they do not want the truth to become too popular internationally, which would render such pieces of writing completely ridiculous in most people's eyes.


Foreign media gets far more access to Kashmir than they are given in P0K. Polls by Peacepolls or Chatamhouse polls were not conducted in vacuum.

Heck, Kashmiris in P0K are not even allowed to hold a political stance that is contradictory to Pakistan's official stance. There are several international reports confirming this. 



> One thing Kashmiris of the Valley agree on is that, regardless of their vision of Azadi, _They do not want to be a part of India_


Not enough. Not enough at all. A section of Baluchistanis also do not want to be with Pakistan. That doesn't mean Pakistan should let go of Baluchistan. Does it?


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## RamGorur

civfanatic said:


> It is your view that the Kashmirs freedom movement does not *have clearly defined goals and vision* . And your opinion and seems to be motivated and clouded by usual Bias that a nationalistic Indian is supposed to have .Coming back to Tarun Vijays piece It is clear that it is an extreme effort at self gratification and self indulgance .


If it is not a 'state' secret and is not too much of inconvenience can you throw some light on some of those 'clearly defined goals and vision', on economy (currently its GoI' huge subsidy that is keeping the fire in your mum's oven burning), security (being sandwiched between three nuclear powered nation), foreign affairs (having to depend entirely either on India and Pakistan for port facilities, being a land locked country, how far will it be able to maintain an independent foreign policy).

Do you want 'azadi' for whole of Kashmir, including P0K? (If P0K is included in your grand scheme of things then the only way you can make it 'azad' is by waging war with Pakistan. Pakistan doesn't even allow Kashmiris of P0K to talk about 'azadi'). Or will it be comprised of 4 districts of Anantanag, Srinagar, Baramulla and Kupwara?


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## ejaz007

Here is another blog. Well the other point of view as one migth say:

KASHMIR FREEDOM MOVEMENT, Tehreek-e-Azadi


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## ejaz007

RamGorur said:


> If it is not a 'state' secret and is not too much of inconvenience can you throw some light on some of those 'clearly defined goals and vision', on economy (currently its GoI' huge subsidy that is keeping the fire in your mum's oven burning), security (being sandwiched between three nuclear powered nation), foreign affairs (having to depend entirely either on India and Pakistan for port facilities, being a land locked country, how far will it be able to maintain an independent foreign policy).
> 
> Do you want 'azadi' for whole of Kashmir, including P0K? (If P0K is included in your grand scheme of things then the only way you can make it 'azad' is by waging war with Pakistan. Pakistan doesn't even allow Kashmiris of P0K to talk about 'azadi'). Or will it be comprised of 4 districts of Anantanag, Srinagar, Baramulla and Kupwara?



Government of Pakistan's stance is quite clear. Do not try to create new scenarios which do not exist and shall never exist.

After a plebescite is held and people of Kashmir give their decision entire Kashmir shall including Azad Kashmir and Indian Occupied Kashmir form one unit and people shall live their lives according to their wishes.

If you have slightest of intelligence left you should know that Pakistan has not made Kashmir fifith province and it is pretty much free. They have their own constitution, parliament, president and prime minister. Pakistan has kept this arrangement purely because they are waiting for the people to decide what they want. If they wish to join us well and good otherwise they should live their lives according to their wishes.

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## RamGorur

ejaz007 said:


> Government of Pakistan's stance is quite clear. Do not try to create new scenarios which do not exist and shall never exist.
> 
> After a plebescite is held and people of Kashmir give their decision entire Kashmir shall including Azad Kashmir and Indian Occupied Kashmir form one unit and people shall live their lives according to their wishes.


What is GoP's stance on Kashmiri 'independence'?



> If you have slightest of intelligence left you should know that Pakistan has not made Kashmir fifith province and it is pretty much free. They have their own constitution, parliament, president and prime minister. Pakistan has kept this arrangement purely because they are waiting for the people to decide what they want. If they wish to join us well and good otherwise they should live their lives according to their wishes.


Now, since I have only slight intelligence, certainly not as much as yours, Pakistan can't officially make it integral to it because then it will weaken its stand on Kashmir, not to mention, make it look like a conquest. 

As with the P0K being free, you are only fooling yourself. As I said, there are several international reports that call that bluff.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

RamGorur said:


> What is GoP's stance on Kashmiri 'independence'?


The GoP's stand is that the Kashmiris have the 'Azadi' to be allowed to exercise the right to self-determination.


> Now, since I have only slight intelligence, certainly not as much as yours, Pakistan can't officially make it integral to it because then it will weaken its stand on Kashmir, not to mention, make it look like a conquest.


Yes, and our stand on Kashmir is to allow the Kashmiris to exercise their right to self-determination. That is a pretty noble motive.


> As with the P0K being free, you are only fooling yourself. As I said, there are several international reports that call that bluff.


Historically, most territories under Islamabad's purview have had to deal with excessive centralized control. But that appears to be changing in the current government with the 18th amendment and devolving a lot of powers to the provinces and more equitable sharing of resources between the Center and Provinces.

Regardless, it does not change anything with respect to the GoP's position on the Kashmiri right to self-determination.


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## RamGorur

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The GoP's stand is that the Kashmiris have the 'Azadi' to be allowed to exercise the right to self-determination.
> 
> Yes, and our stand on Kashmir is to allow the Kashmiris to exercise their right to self-determination. That is a pretty noble motive.


Noble motive indeed. Does GoP's definition of Kashmiris include Northern Areas (Gilgit, Baltistan, Hunza)? Do the Kashmiris of P0K have the 'azadi' to self-determine their 'azadi'?



> Historically, most territories under Islamabad's purview have had to deal with excessive centralized control. But that appears to be changing in the current government with the 18th amendment and devolving a lot of powers to the provinces and more equitable sharing of resources between the Center and Provinces.


Good job. Now all that remains is to implement it on the ground and just not build up a facade like 'Azad' Kashmir.



> Regardless, it does not change anything with respect to the GoP's position on the Kashmiri right to self-determination.


Appreciable stand. Although my query remains unanswered. Is the option for 'azadi' officially on the table?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

RamGorur said:


> Noble motive indeed. Does GoP's definition of Kashmiris include Northern Areas (Gilgit, Baltistan, Hunza)? Do the Kashmiris of P0K have the 'azadi' to self-determine their 'azadi'?


While the GoP would prefer to argue differently, it has abided with the international consensus on G-B being a part of the disputed territory of J&K and not integrated it into Pakistan as a fifth province, despite tremendous popular demand inside G-B for such a move. That directly implies that a plebiscite would include G-B as well, and including G-B would in fact be in Pakistan's favor (in case of a single plebiscite over all of J&K) given the millions of votes that it would bring in favor of Pakistan.


> Good job. Now all that remains is to implement it on the ground and just not build up a facade like 'Azad' Kashmir.


Irrelevant to the point of allowing the Kashmiris to exercise self-determination.


> Appreciable stand. Although my query remains unanswered. Is the option for 'azadi' officially on the table?


Once tripartite negotiations between the Kashmiris, India and Pakistan on conducting a plebiscite start, who knows. But India first has to commit to implementing its promise of allowing the Kashmiris to exercise their right to self-determination. These 'what if's' can only be addressed once that irrational nationalism driving Indian occupation of Kashmir ends.


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## sasuke

For plebiscite to occur, it has to include P0K and Northern Areas along with J&K ... also no UN resolution give Kashmiris the right to independence. They have to be either part of India or Pakistan .... 

Which means ... Pakistan stand of Independence for Kashmir is long lost!!!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

sasuke said:


> For plebiscite to occur, it has to include P0K and Northern Areas along with J&K ... also no UN resolution give Kashmiris the right to independence. They have to be either part of India or Pakistan ....


That would be why Pakistan has not integrated them into Pakistan ...


> Which means ... Pakistan stand of Independence for Kashmir is long lost!!!


That can be negotiated in discussions, but first India has to come back to the table and re-commit to the Kashmiri right to self-determination.


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## Hulk

If GOP is pro freedom then let me allow to create a separate country called Kashmir and then ask India to allow them to join. You can also call UN and get plebiscite done and then say look we have done this here and now India should follow.
Practice what you preach.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

indianrabbit said:


> If GOP is pro freedom then let me allow to create a separate country called Kashmir and then ask India to allow them to join. You can also call UN and get plebiscite done and then say look we have done this here and now India should follow.
> Practice what you preach.



huh? 

Practice making sense first perhaps ...


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## sasuke

Renegotiated? Kashmir as an independent state is not economically viable ... countries on both sides know that and the whole world agrees that. Then why do you try to support for something which will create more chaos for the people in Kashmir?


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## RamGorur

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> While the GoP would prefer to argue differently, it has abided with the international consensus on G-B being a part of the disputed territory of J&K and not integrated it into Pakistan as a fifth province, despite tremendous popular demand inside G-B for such a move. That directly implies that a plebiscite would include G-B as well, and including G-B would in fact be in Pakistan's favor (in case of a single plebiscite over all of J&K) given the millions of votes that it would bring in favor of Pakistan.


Is it the official stance of GoP or is it what _you think_ is the official stance of GoP. Can you please direct me to some official resource on this matter. It will be greatly appreciated.

Perhaps, G-B will vote in favour of Pakistan. But the question was would they ever be given a chance to be 'azad'? The import of that question, that you missed, is will the people of G-B be allowed to organise political or mass awareness movements about 'azadi'?


> Irrelevant to the point of allowing the Kashmiris to exercise self-determination.


Relevant to the point of illustrating P0K doesn't enjoy 'azadi', as opposed to what was insinuated by the original poster.


> Once tripartite negotiations between the Kashmiris, India and Pakistan on conducting a plebiscite start, who knows. But India first has to commit to implementing its promise of allowing the Kashmiris to exercise their right to self-determination. These 'what if's' can only be addressed once that irrational nationalism driving Indian occupation of Kashmir ends.


Regardless of India's stand on 'right to self-determination, nothing stops GoP, on clarifying its position on 'azadi'.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

sasuke said:


> Renegotiated? Kashmir as an independent state is not economically viable ... countries on both sides know that and the whole world agrees that. Then why do you try to support for something which will create more chaos for the people in Kashmir?



Concerns over the economic infeasibility of ab independent Kashmir can be raised with the leadership of the various Kashmiri groups and those in favor of outright independence can be given an opportunity to present their case.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

RamGorur said:


> Is it the official stance of GoP or is it what _you think_ is the official stance of GoP. Can you please direct me to some official resource on this matter. It will be greatly appreciated.


It is obviously the official stance of Pakistan - as for a source, check the constitution of Pakistan and let me know if G-B exists in it as a fifth province or not.


> Perhaps, G-B will vote in favour of Pakistan. But the question was would they ever be given a chance to be 'azad'? The import of that question, that you missed, is will the people of G-B be allowed to organise political or mass awareness movements about 'azadi'?


In preparations for a plebiscite, once agreed to be implemented, if it included that option, then why not?


> Relevant to the point of illustrating P0K doesn't enjoy 'azadi', as opposed to what was insinuated by the original poster.


Irrelevant to the point of the Kashmir right of self-determination denied by India.


> Regardless of India's stand on 'right to self-determination, nothing stops GoP, on clarifying its position on 'azadi'.


So long as India continues to deny the Kashmiris their right to self-determination, any position 'clarified' by Pakistan is meaningless for the Kashmiris.

Once work on implementing the plebiscite starts, each sides position will be crystal clear to the Kashmiris.


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## Hulk

Well I am willing to accept we are immoral people and also we will never give Kashmir. Let Pakistan show leadership and declare Azad Kashmir as Independent nation.


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## Jackdaws

The only way out of this quagmire since Pakistan keeps harping on plebiscite is - scrap Article 370 - allow free movement of people like Pakistan allows into their part of Kashmir and conduct the plebiscite.


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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> So long as India continues to deny the Kashmiris their right to self-determination, any position 'clarified' by Pakistan is meaningless for the Kashmiris.


Why? Are they a special breed that they 'deserve' a "self-determination"? Hmmn, NO. There wont be any plebiscite, no matter how many reams of paper be written on the subject! Its silly to assume that India will just give up that piece of strategic real estate for those few stone pelters.


> Once work on implementing the plebiscite starts, each sides position will be crystal clear to the Kashmiris.


What part of Resolution 47 -filed under chapter VI did you miss. The one that it is non-binding? Or the one that Pakistan has to first withdraw all its troops from the territories before India withdraws its troops? Or the fact that Pakistan conveniently chose to ignore that clause of the resolution and yet keeps harping on a plebiscite?

What part of Pakistan invading a then independent state of Kashmir on a false pretext did you miss? And yes, India was asked for help, and we did but on a condition that Kashmir accede to the Indian union. Nothing comes for free. A plebiscite was promised to the whole of Kashmir, not a part of it. Once we get the whole of Kashmir, we will THEN decide what to do.

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## John Doe

Terrorists kill mother-daughter duo in Kashmir - India - DNA

With life at a near standstill due to strikesand curfew, Shakeela Gorsi took her 9-year-old daughter Zareena to an army medical camp in sheer desperation. Both paid with their lives.

Four militants, suspected to be from Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT), barged into the house of Mohammad Hussain Gorsi in Nadimarg in Dhamal Hanjipura area of Kulgam district, some 80km from Srinagar, around 9pm yesterday.

Their mission was to punish Gorsi for the 'sin' committed by his wife by seeking army's medical help, police said.

The man was not not at home.His wife and daughter begged for forgiveness but their pleas did not not impress the terrorists who are active in the area. They pumped bullets into the mother and the daughter.

The local medical centre in the village was closed because of the strike call given by the separatists. Therefore the mother-daughter duo went to the nearby medical camp of army's Rashtriya Rifles.

Nandimarg area had witnessed brutal massacre of 24 Kashmiri pandits on March 23, 2003.

While the focus remains on the street protests that have disrupted normal life in the valley for about two months now now, incidents of selective militant attacks take place from time to time.

The militants were also active in Pulwama district where they killed Ghulam Nabi Wani, an employee of the Social Welfare Department at Chakoora, 45km from Srinagar, last night. His 'crime' is not not known.

Yet another militant attack took place in the wee hours of today when militants attacked the residence of the ruling National Conference MLA Mohammad Ashraf Ganai in Sopore, their second attack on him in the last five days.

A group of heavily-armed militants fired at the residence of the MLA but the guards posted there retaliated, the police said, adding there was no no loss of life.

In their first attack on Aug 18 the militants had killed a Special Police Officer and injured two police constables on duty at the residence of Ganai, who was not not present on both the occasions.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> Why? Are they a special breed that they 'deserve' a "self-determination"?


Yes - unlike other territories incorporated into the modern States of India and Pakistan, the Kashmiris were not given the choice to choose which state to become a part of, a right established by India's commitment to the same, as well as her actions in Junagadh and Hyderabad, and the UN Millennium Declaration.



> What part of Resolution 47 -filed under chapter VI did you miss. The one that it is non-binding? Or the one that Pakistan has to first withdraw all its troops from the territories before India withdraws its troops? Or the fact that Pakistan conveniently chose to ignore that clause of the resolution and yet keeps harping on a plebiscite?


Nonsense - instead of raising the same red-herring and canards time and time again, read through the UNSC resolutions thread and respond there. Pakistan was not under an obligation to withdraw militarily - various UN commissions were formed to come up with demilitarization and plebiscite plans, that India rejected, and therefore could not be implemented. Many of those demilitarization plans Pakistan in fact accepted.


> What part of Pakistan invading a then independent state of Kashmir on a false pretext did you miss? And yes, India was asked for help, and we did but on a condition that Kashmir accede to the Indian union. Nothing comes for free. A plebiscite was promised to the whole of Kashmir, not a part of it. Once we get the whole of Kashmir, we will THEN decide what to do.


The UNSC resolutions and the plans recommended by the various UN commissions do not agree with your position entirely. Pick a plan, or go back to the UN to have another commission formed to recommend another demilitarization plan and implementation can go from there.

Also don't forget the part where India invaded and occupied the States of Junagadh and Hyderabad, where the former had acceded to Pakistan, and India argued that accession was meaningless and 'self-determination' was legitimacy, at least as far as Hindu's were concerned.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

How do we know this was not done by Indian security forces?


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How do we know this was not done by Indian security forces?



The same way as we know that yesterday's blasts and assassination of MNA Maulana Noor Mohammed in Pakistan were not done by ISI.

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## RamGorur

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It is obviously the official stance of Pakistan - as for a source, check the constitution of Pakistan and let me know if G-B exists in it as a fifth province or not.


I am sure it is not included in Pakistani constitution. But does that mean that Pakistan is open to holding a plebiscite in G-B in the same way as it demands to be held on the Indian side. I needed a resource to verify this position.


> In preparations for a plebiscite, once agreed to be implemented, if it included that option, then why not?


But doesn&#8217;t GoP stand for &#8216;right&#8217; to self-determination. Why then, their &#8216;right&#8217; to be self-aware and &#8216;right&#8217; to pursue a political discourse to explore all alternatives, which are inherent part of &#8216;right to self-determination&#8217;, are held hostage to the preparations for a plebiscite.


> Irrelevant to the point of the Kashmir right of self-determination denied by India.


Relevant to the point of the original poster&#8217;s insinuation. This is the problem that arises when someone jumps in between.


> So long as India continues to deny the Kashmiris their right to self-determination, any position 'clarified' by Pakistan is meaningless for the Kashmiris.


So long as Pakistan continues to not clarify its stand on &#8216;azadi&#8217;, its claim to stand for Kashmiris&#8217; right looks only pretentious and gives the impression that it is stands for their &#8216;right&#8217; to self-determination, so long as it confirms its own interest.


> Once work on implementing the plebiscite starts, each sides position will be crystal clear to the Kashmiris.


It happened once upon a time and Pakistan did make its position &#8216;crystal clear&#8217; &#8211; Kashmiris not to be a party at UN and independence not to be an option.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> The same way as we know that yesterday's blasts and assassination of MNA Maulana Noor Mohammed in Pakistan were not done by ISI. Thru reports coming out of the place.



Yes, and reports immediately suggest that the LeT was involved eh?

The reports from Pakistan at least point out that no group claimed responsibility, and which groups (Uzbeks) Noor Mohmammed was actively against.

Which group were these women against?

There are existing reports blaming Indian security forces for the rape, torture and murder of tens of thousands of Kashmiris.

Were these women raped and then murdered, and staged to look like a militant killing to deflect blame from the Indian security forces?

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## WAQAS119

*'Terrorists kill mother-daughter duo in Kashmir'* 

Those terrorists must be Indian Army men!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## sasuke

OMG ... u guys can't accept the reality right??? Our media is pretty crazy about these incidents and if there some big scoop I don't think they will let go of anyone. 

Anyways .... those bigot terrorists who kill innocent people ... impotent mfs shud be killed like pigs!!! 
The family must the many of those who don't support those stone pelting incidents.

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## John Doe

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How do we know this was not done by Indian security forces?



Nothing is impossible,of course. On the other hand, I find it impossible to see a conspiracy in everything. 

Honestly, there are way too many conspiracy theories floating about in this forum.

I'll end by repeating that nothing is impossible, you just might be correct after all, but very very very unlikely.


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## RamGorur

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Yes - unlike other territories incorporated into the modern States of India and Pakistan, the Kashmiris were not given the choice to choose which state to become a part of, a right established by India's commitment to the same, as well as her actions in Junagadh and Hyderabad, and the UN Millennium Declaration.


None of which created a 'right to self-determination.' 



> Nonsense - instead of raising the same red-herring and canards time and time again, read through the UNSC resolutions thread and respond there. Pakistan was not under an obligation to withdraw militarily - various UN commissions were formed to come up with demilitarization and plebiscite plans, that India rejected, and therefore could not be implemented. Many of those demilitarization plans Pakistan in fact accepted.


Pakistan refused more than it accepted, and accepted only those that it found favorable. Pakistan didn't accept the definition of 'local authority', refused to disarm and disband Azad Force, and violating cease fire agreement, augmented the Azad Force (UN is on record confirming this), adamantly stuck to its demand that the 'nature of forces' on either side be equal, etc. etc.



> Also don't forget the part where India invaded and occupied the States of Junagadh and Hyderabad, where the former had acceded to Pakistan, and India argued that accession was meaningless and 'self-determination' was legitimacy, at least as far as Hindu's were concerned.


Hyderabad never acceded to Pakistan and India never argued that 'self-determination' was legitimate. What India had argued was that if IoA is to be reversed (or confirmed) in case of a dispute between the ruler and the people, the only way it can be so done is by the people. It was not a question of 'right to self-determination' but of a mechanism for dispute resolving.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Yes, and reports immediately suggest that the LeT was involved eh?
> 
> The reports from Pakistan at least point out that no group claimed responsibility, and which groups (Uzbeks) Noor Mohmammed was actively against.


The terrorist organizations operating in the area are the usual suspects. Sometimes Security agencies dont wait for the criminals to lay claim to the crime before investigating.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Which group were these women against?


These women were simply asking medical aid from Indian Military which is surely against all terrorist groups (Pakistani and otherwise) operating in the area




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> There are existing reports blaming Indian security forces for the rape, torture and murder of tens of thousands of Kashmiris.
> 
> Were these women raped and then murdered, and staged to look like a militant killing to deflect blame from the Indian security forces?



There are similar reports finding ISI and Pakistani establishment complicit in killing Benazir Bhutto.

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## INS

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Yes, and reports immediately suggest that the LeT was involved eh?
> 
> *The reports from Pakistan at least point out that no group claimed responsibility, and which groups (Uzbeks) Noor Mohmammed was actively against.*
> 
> Which group were these women against?
> 
> There are existing reports blaming Indian security forces for the rape, torture and murder of tens of thousands of Kashmiris.
> 
> Were these women raped and then murdered, and staged to look like a militant killing to deflect blame from the Indian security forces?



So you need Pakistani news if any activity happened in India ???


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> The same way as we know that yesterday's blasts and assassination of MNA Maulana Noor Mohammed in Pakistan were not done by ISI.



The paranoia of you guys with LET and mentioning of LET in this news makes this whole issue a bit fishy. We have seen IA's talent with fake encounters in the past.


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## WAQAS119

sasuke said:


> those bigot terrorists who kill innocent people ... impotent mfs shud be killed like pigs!!!



I totally agree with you!!!!!!!!!!!

*Two women were raped and killed in Jammu & Kashmir by India army*

*Hundreds of Kashmiris protest women's deaths*


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## John Doe

Why was the title changed?

I posted this news article. Follow the link : where was the Indian army suspected? If you came across some additional information, then definitely change the title.

Theories that you have admittedly imagined and have no knowledge of, other than what I have posted, should not be part of this title. At this rate,why not blame the fabled CIA-RAW-MOSSAD-Lady Gaga nexus too?

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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Also don't forget the part where India invaded and occupied the States of Junagadh and Hyderabad, where the former had acceded to Pakistan, and India argued that accession was meaningless and 'self-determination' was legitimacy, at least as far as Hindu's were concerned.



Post 1947, it was a mad land grab fest for both countries, in which India was more successful. Kashmir was left untouched by India, till Pakistan jumped in. India got Kashmir legally (you may question legality, but we digress) and so has retained and will retain most of the territory. Enywho, as China lays claim for all of "Middle Kingdom" which includes Tibet, we too claim Kashmir because it was part of the Mauryan/Rajput/Mughal empires and finally British India! The right to "self determination" is a fallacious argument, just like some people like to call themselves "Gods chosen people" - as if all others are children of a lesser God! My people werent given a choice either, though we too are of a special breed! Does that mean we also should demand a plebiscite? What a ridiculous notion!

As for Junagadh and Hyderabad, Pakistan was created for the Muslims. So can you justify accepting accession of Hindu majority states into a Muslim majority Pakistan, other than a land grab? IF you have one, then the purpose, the reason for Pakistan's creation stands nullified!

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## Bang Galore

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How do we know this was not done by Indian security forces?



How do we know you are not Hafeez Saeed...............?

How do we know anything then? Everything can be turned on its head by asking how do we know. How do we know that terrorists aren't secretly funding the mosque in NY?_(the key being secretly)_? We have to go with what we know. If you have any other source contradicting the above story, then lets hear it. Until then, atleast for the purpose of the discussion we must go with what has been reported. If as Karan asked how do we know that anything reported in the Pakistani media is true and that be the argument & counter argument, that would be a very short & quick journey to the bottom. Won't be much of a forum left.

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## HAIDER

Well, Kashmir has press blackout. What ever news publish, it first serve the desk of central govt office. Channels are ban, movements are ban, Press is ban....then what independent source left. Indian army ?

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## INS

HAIDER said:


> Well, Kashmir has press blackout. What ever news publish, it first serve the desk of central govt office. Channels are ban, movements are ban, Press is ban....then what independent source left. Indian army ?



Please dnt talk about Pak occupied Kashmir we are talking about J&K

*if press is not free in J&K so you are not able to listen any news about current protest and killing * just consider this fact

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## Bhairava

gubbi said:


> As for Junagadh and Hyderabad, Pakistan was created for the Muslims. So can you justify accepting accession of Hindu majority states into a Muslim majority Pakistan, other than a land grab? IF you have one, then the purpose, the reason for Pakistan's creation stands nullified!



Exactly

Pakistan - by definition was created as a homeland for the sub-continental Muslims (though an equal majority of Muslims themselves dont buy that argument is another story) .So How can it accept two absolute Hindu majority states (Junagadh,Hyderabad) in it.? Does it not go against the basic vision/ambition of their founder?

On the other hand India was not created as a Hindu state - so Kashmir;s accession to us perfectly valid.

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## Fireurimagination

Title changed to 'Terrorists or Indian Army' LOL, mother-daughter duo were police informers, anyways from where did the mods get the brilliant India of Indian Army killing their own informers

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## HAIDER

its one sided news, news is leaking through different sources. Cellphones and cellphone cameras. I thought you guys post the news while ago about cellphone restrictions in occupied Kashmir and also ip phones.


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## Bhairava

HAIDER said:


> Well, Kashmir has press blackout. What ever news publish, it first serve the desk of central govt office. Channels are ban, movements are ban, Press is ban....then what independent source left. Indian army ?



Then how come you are knowing about the protests if it is all black.?

Crystal ball.?

But serioulsy I want the Indian Govt to implement all the above you suggested.How long to waste the tax money in pampering these separatists.


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## HAIDER

Gounder said:


> Then how come you are knowing about the protests if it is all black.?
> 
> Crystal ball.?
> 
> But serioulsy I want the Indian Govt to implement all the above you suggested.How long to waste the tax money in pampering these separatists.



read my post 23. 
well, India should look for middle ground, give them freedom and sign water treaty. Because nobody wants Kashmiri destroy all the dams build by Indian. Nobody wants starved India.


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## INS

HAIDER said:


> its one sided news, news is leaking through different sources. Cellphones and cellphone cameras. I thought you guys post the news while ago about cellphone restrictions in occupied Kashmir and also ip phones.



Do you think any SMS or MMS will be send without knowledge of government ???
If they want to control media so they can also control this matter but they are not blocking media

what a stupid logic by you 

*I think Pakistani members here free to post scrap or BS (Mod change the title without even source) but on the other hand if any Indian member do that so he is immediately got banned *


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## Bhairava

HAIDER said:


> read my post 23.
> well, India should look for middle ground, give them freedom and sign water treaty. Because nobody wants Kashmiri destroy all the dams build by Indian. Nobody wants starved India.



If the press is banned,channel is banned,movement is banned why cell phone services alone not banned (only if you have coverage SMS and MMS can be sent) .

Did the GoI forget to ban that alone.? What logic is this dude.?

Ans as for destroying the dam part - still you have not understood the impact of flooding on the common man.?


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## deep.ocean

John Doe said:


> Why was the title changed?
> 
> I posted this news article. Follow the link : where was the Indian army suspected? If you came across some additional information, then definitely change the title.
> 
> Theories that you have admittedly imagined and have no knowledge of, other than what I have posted, should not be part of this title. At this rate,why not blame the fabled CIA-RAW-MOSSAD-Lady Gaga nexus too?



How can they change themself from being Talibani (Its inherited).. They will attempt every tactic to defame kaffir..

So no surprises if they have changed title..


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## HAIDER

whats's wrong Indian poster don't be emotional. I think you guys don't pay attention when Pakistani member rights anything. First take down your emotion, have cold glass of water then see what we are talking and writing.Few you guys right, without even reading the response. Be good listener/reader. You are not super power, just another poor third world country like mine.


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## forcetrip

Stop the whinning on a Pakistani website about enemy propaganda not being given due attention. I have seen lot of other ridiculous biased articles posted and have discussed them amicably and so have most others (taking into account some bad apples who derail everything). Words like IOK and stuff will fly well on some sites that believe that is the case. This site overwhelmingly supports Kashmir to have the right to freedom.

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## deep.ocean

HAIDER said:


> whats's wrong Indian poster don't be emotional. I think you guys don't pay attention when Pakistani member rights anything. First take down your emotion, have cold glass of water then see what we are talking and writing.Few you guys right, without even reading the response. Be good listener/reader. You are not super power, just another *poor third world country like mine*.



Don't you feel ashamed on calling ur country Poor Third World Country..
Sorry I don't feel the same abt My Beloved Country


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## roach

This title change is a blatant attempt by a mod to twist the news to a perspective that is not part of reality.

I'm glad this happened, it vindicates India's stand that the Pakistani sympathy with Kashmiris is BS.

Pakistanis love to see Kashmir burning. Nothing gives them more pleasure than to wake up in the morning and see that civilians have died in Kashmir at the hand of security forces.......the view that Kashmiris are fed up of the violence does not suit their perspective.


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## big_mac

The situation in Indian held Kashmir is getting critical by each day and Indian Govt will do anything to downplay the efforts by the freedom fighters. Now they(govt) are trying to play the card of terrorism:nothing new here I guess.

IHK is now on the road of freedom. 63 years of brutality , violation of basic human rights and 700,000 Indian Army soldiers in valley who are still struggling to control the Kashmiri Freedom fighters. 

The panic has already started to show even in the ranks of Indian Govt and inter party politics. Truth will come out eventually.


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## deep.ocean

roach said:


> This title change is a blatant attempt by a mod to twist the news to a perspective that is not part of reality.
> 
> I'm glad this happened, it vindicates India's stand that the Pakistani sympathy with Kashmiris is BS.
> 
> Pakistanis love to see Kashmir burning. Nothing gives them more pleasure than to wake up in the morning and see that civilians have died in Kashmir at the hand of security forces.......the view that Kashmiris are fed up of the violence does not suit their perspective.



Yes absolutely right.. Without killings there would be no Conspiracy theories like this and without conspiracy theories how would they play with sentiments of the innocent peoples..


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## GentlemanObserver

forcetrip said:


> Stop the whinning on a Pakistani website about enemy propaganda not being given due attention. I have seen lot of other ridiculous biased articles posted and have discussed them amicably and so have most others (taking into account some bad apples who derail everything). Words like IOK and stuff will fly well on some sites that believe that is the case. This site overwhelmingly supports Kashmir to have the right to freedom.



^^^
This, remember we are Pakistanis here. Many Thanks


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## forcetrip

Ground realities state exactly the opposite of the articles you post and the comments you have. I will be in Srinagar end of November, I will try to get an unbiased account of what is happening with some documented proof hopefully. My relatives there have absolutely nothing to do with the LeT or the strikes. Most of the people here have not been to the valley and defend an empty media game. Again you can defend your army's point of view all you want. Thats what people on this site do about our army.

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## deep.ocean

Paladin said:


> ^^^
> This, remember we are Pakistanis here. Many Thanks



Thanks for what?
1. Being insensitive towards freedom fighter's act?
2. Giving Blind support to killing of innocent people?
3. Playing with sentiments of Kashmiris?
4. Exporting Nos-State Actor's Doctrines ...
......


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## Areesh

deep.ocean said:


> Thanks for what?
> 1. Being insensitive towards freedom fighter's act?
> 2. Giving Blind support to killing of innocent people?
> 3. Playing with sentiments of Kashmiris?
> 4. Exporting Nos-State Actor's Doctrines ...
> ......



She also did the same. It is nothing new.







It all happens dear. Don't cry over it.


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## forcetrip

deep.ocean said:


> Thanks for what?
> 1. Being insensitive towards freedom fighter's act?
> 2. Giving Blind support to killing of innocent people?
> 3. Playing with sentiments of Kashmiris?
> 4. Exporting Nos-State Actor's Doctrines ...
> ......



One unsubstantiated article about innocent people being killed by someone has made such an impact. 60+ years of innocents dying at the hands of Indian forces, multiply those emotions by the appropriate number of dead and raped. If that appropriate number is 0, I have nothing further to add.


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## HAIDER

deep.ocean said:


> Don't you feel ashamed on calling ur country Poor Third World Country..
> Sorry I don't feel the same abt My Beloved Country



Do you think if i feel shameful, that would change the ground reality ?.
or Today your feel proud being Indian, tomorrow your 800,000 hungry countrymen will get the food ?. Optimism is encouraging but over confident bring destruction .

well Indian army already cross the score of 100,000 civilian anyway. Well an NGO discover the unmarked grave of 1000 people and European Union started the investigation. End result Indian army block the investigation and NGO landed in prison. Come of day dreaming guys. You guys have toooooo much blood in your hands.


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## deep.ocean

Areesh said:


> She also did the same. It is nothing new.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It all happens dear. Don't cry over it.



I am only crying for the Innocent Mother and Her child.. only..


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## Areesh

deep.ocean said:


> I am only crying for the Innocent Mother and Her child.. only..



As I said there are thousands of such innocent mothers and daughters who have lost their lives due to policies of your establishment. No need to get too emotional over it.


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## Iggy

Good job mods for the title change..you can change the title as much as you can but the ground reality will be same....

Do one favour. dont claim anymore that it is a neutral forum and there is freedom of speech here..these two qualities are long gone from this forum..

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## Hulk

Changing the title of the thread is against the sprite of forum. It should be the thread starters prerogative and they have used the title of the news. There should be one yardstick and not two for different member's. I protest.


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## forcetrip

It is not substantiated news. I protest we need more media to report this new development. Hopefully media blackout will end and real news agencies can see what is happening. Till then lets work on other things to blame each other for.


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## GentlemanObserver

roach said:


> This title change is a blatant attempt by a mod to twist the news to a perspective that is not part of reality.



Yeah right, if there is one thing i can say for the MODS at PDF is their impartiality in many cases they have chastised Pakistani members for being overzealous in their defence of Pakistan and have been liberal and broad minded enough to allow some very provocative discussions on this forum.

So lets not go there shall we. BTW you avatar suits you perfectly, smash your head against the desk, repeat until unconscious!


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## Bhairava

forcetrip said:


> Ground realities state exactly the opposite of the articles you post and the comments you have. I will be in Srinagar end of November, I will try to get an unbiased account of what is happening with some documented proof hopefully. My relatives there have absolutely nothing to do with the LeT or the strikes. Most of the people here have not been to the valley and defend an empty media game. Again you can defend your army's point of view all you want. Thats what people on this site do about our army.



Did you just say ground realities..?

I suggest you go through this.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/70245-protestors-kashmir-face-stones-their-own-bitter-pill-2.html


By the way i am not defending my army.Can you produce a single,yes a single news source that states that Indian Army killed mother-daughter duo.

Until you produce that there is no argument whatsoever here.

Just empty statements like "Yes the terrorists are Indian Army" can earn a few claps among conspiracy theorists but among others they *FAIL*

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## GentlemanObserver

deep.ocean said:


> Thanks for what?
> 1. Being insensitive towards freedom fighter's act?
> 2. Giving Blind support to killing of innocent people?
> 3. Playing with sentiments of Kashmiris?
> 4. Exporting Nos-State Actor's Doctrines ...
> ......



Thanks for remembering that BRF is that way ---> 

Don't let the virtual door hit your a$$ on the way out...


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## empty.khan

Nice Topic


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## Bhairava

the purpose of this thread is *NOT TO* discuss whter Kashmir should be indpendent or not.
The purpose is to examine the viablity of an independent Kashmir and *how it can survive politically,economically and militarily* inbetween three nuclear armed rivals - India,China and Pakistan..?

*My opinion* - Even if Kashmir is to become independent it would not be viable because of the simple fact *India and Pakistan will not forget their bad past and will definitely play a game of one-upmanship* in the newly independent Kashmir and it will eventually result in the creation of a brand new Afghanistan.

So an independent Kashmir instead of bringing in the promised stability will in contrast *bring more chaos and instability to the already troubled region*.

p.s.:Again please no discussion on whether it should be independent or not..Only what will happen if it becomes independent.

*And post your views why it is viable/unviable.That is the main point..not the voting.
*
thanks.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

*Video link for the news also has footage of the person who was the actual target of terrorist.

*

Jammu And Kashmir: Zareena, 19, & mother killed by militants
Published On: August 23, 2010 | Duration: 1 min 56 sec

Jammu And Kashmir: Zareena, 19, & mother killed by militants



Shocked relatives in Kulgam, south Kashmir, are mourning the death 19-year-old Zareena and her mother, 40-year-old Shakeela. Both were killed in their home, in cold blood, by suspected militants even though they were not their target.

Terrorists kill 3 innocents in J&K-India-TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos

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## airuah

we have a video proof here .where is the title change?


now they are deleting our posts but refuse to change the title of the thread. what else can be expected?

p.s am expecting this post also to be deleted by Tami

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## Dash

Areesh said:


> As I said there are thousands of such innocent mothers and daughters who have lost their lives due to policies of your establishment. No need to get too emotional over it.


As long as they dont understand the value of their lives, they are supposed to die.

They are the same people who threaten Sikhs to flee the state to establish their religious supremacy.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

I hope the mods realize by changing the title of the threads they are trivializing the issue being discussed.

But then again its your forum your freedom for mischief.Whatever makes you happy 


*ontopic*
Sad,that the militants often gun down those who(out of fear) refuse to, shelter them or ,do their bidding.

Each death of a civilian in the hands of militants is a shame on the half-million Indian troops present there to protect them.I hope we become more efficient in the future.


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## deep.ocean

They will do every thing to legitimate their Jihad in Kashmir, Changing the title is smaller than the act of killing innocent...

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## Areesh

Dash said:


> As long as they dont understand the value of their lives, they are supposed to die.
> 
> They are the same people who threaten Sikhs to flee the state to establish their religious supremacy.



Good you just sum up establishment's morality.


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## deep.ocean

It will become IInd Bangladesh for India.
My 2 Cents: We need to relocate some Tamil refugee there and it will settle the whole issue..


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## GentlemanObserver

Bhushan said:


> Kid i have spent more time on this forum than you and know much better what was the quality of the forum some time back....... This forum always endorsed freedom of speech and that's why i am here even after being an Indian. You don't have to tell me what should i do.
> 
> If opposing the violation of somebody's freedom of speech or dictatorship on my forum(if i like this forum then we are a big family) is a troll then there is a serious need of reviewing the forum rules here. Asking for a right is not the criteria for ban on this forum.





> Kid i have spent more time on this forum than you and know much better what was the quality of the forum some time back.......



Don't judge... I have been on this forum far longer than you think, what makes you think i am a newb here? My post numbers = Epenis

Now calling me Kid... LOL, i just laugh that off because it demonstrates your own maturity. 



> This forum always endorsed freedom of speech and that's why i am here even after being an Indian. You don't have to tell me what should i do.



Funny, your the one bitching about it! This is no democracy, mods are mods. 



> If opposing the violation of somebody's freedom of speech or dictatorship on my forum(if i like this forum then we are a big family) is a troll then there is a serious need of reviewing the forum rules here. Asking for a right is not the criteria for ban on this forum.



Like i said, that decision aint up to you, it's up to the mods and the larger community, stop being so egocentric and touchy... 



> Asking for a right



LOL!



> If opposing the violation of somebody's freedom of speech or dictatorship on my forum(if i like this forum then we are a big family) is a troll then there is a serious need of reviewing the forum rules here.



Like i said, don't like it here... BRF -----> that way. I have been on many Indian forums and know first hand how many prescribe to the values you seem to be preaching and defending here...

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## indianpatriot

Indian Army has better things to do than killing a nine year old...its an army not Taliban....

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## Brotherhood

Man, if i feel i was being mistreated or discriminated on a forum, 
(1) Communicate with the admin with a decent manner and a proper channel like PM.
(2) Quit the forum like a man with dignity. 
Case close.

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## back me up

Terrorists kill 2 people and the army is to blame?

The fact is Pakistanis WANT to believe that Indian Army is a bunch of hooligans. The question is why? what purpose does this serve?


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## Agnostic_Indian

Any way it's a good reason to get killed.. # SEEKING MEDICAL HELP #


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## Frankenstein

Terrorists are the ones who causes terror of themselves in people minds, which I think Indian Army is been busy doing in past years, so by this Indian Army can be considered as Terrorists

But Raping, murdering in not terrorism its inhumanity, which Indian Army is qualified in, and its true


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## forcetrip

First off .. I agree that's actually a real stupid name change. It makes no sense at all. Close the thread instead. I do not know why it is so hard to grasp the notion that the media could spin multiple events that happened and came up with this story. The footage clearly shows gunmen leading the procession and they don't look like the army to me. That raises question if this incident was something other than what was portrayed. Is there a chance that it was splinter terrorists groups? All in all it is happening on Indian occupied Kashmir, and you keep bringing up Pakistan Armys involvement in that particular scenario. That is pushing the boundary and our hospitality on this forum. I also am glad you all have such high emotions for the innocent lives being lost in the beautiful valley, maybe you can comment more about the documented atrocities by the Indian troops as well on other threads.


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## forcetrip

Any other previous wars you would like to bring in this thread?

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## IBRIS

May the departed innocent souls R.I.P

The Supreme Almighty is watching, no one escapes from his line of sight. Culprits will have KARMA chasing them, wherever they go. This is not how freedom is achieved.

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## EjazR

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How do we know this was not done by Indian security forces?



Because even the local papers are saying the same. Because you have seen mass protests erupt after that. And ofcourse because the villagers committed the "sin" of going to an army medical camp.

*Kashmir Images :: Militants kill three in south Kashmir
Attack MLA Sopore&#8217;s house again*
Srinagar, Aug 23: Three people including a mother-daughter duo were killed by suspected militants in south Kashmir late Sunday evening. Sources said that a group of militants barged into the residential house of one Muhammad Hussain Gorsi in Damal Hanjipora village of Kulgam and opened indiscriminate fire on the inmates.
Gorsi&#8217;s wife, Shakeela, 40, and daughter Zarina, 19, sustained bullet injuries while as the militants managed their escape from the scene.
The locals rushed the two woman to hospital were they were declared brought dead, sources said.
The incident has shocked the entire area and people have condemned the brutal killings.
In an identical incident, militants barged into the house of one Ghulam Nabi Wani in Chakoora (Pulwama) village and shot dead his son-in-law, Ghulam Muhammad Bhat, an employee of the social welfare department.
Meanwhile, police have registered cases in both the incidents and have started investigations.
Preliminary investigations, as per police sources, indicate that Hizbul Mujahideen militants were involved in the incidents.
Meanwhile, militants made yet another attack on ruling National Conference (NC) MLA Mohammad Ashraf Ganie's residence at Sopore in north Kashmir district of Baramulla.
Militants attacked the house of Ganie with automatic weapons late last night, a police spokesperson today said.
The guards of Ganie also retaliated and the exchange of fire continued for some time.
No one was injured in the attack, he said, adding the militants managed to escape under the cover of darkness.
On August 19, a Special Police Officer (SPO) was killed and two other police personnel were injured in a similar attack on Ganie's house.

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## foxbat

I remember when Coke modified its formula to make it sweeter and match Pepsi's sweeter drink, Pepsi world wide gave a day off to its marketing staff and took out a single page advertisement in all the major US publications. The line read...

*The Other Guy Blinked.*

This signified that Pepsi's successful market strategy forced Coke to do something out of character (changing the coke formula) and put it on defensive. 

The way I see this change of title by the mods, I see it as a Pepsi moment for a lot of Indian members. The Other Guy Blinked

And this is not a complaint against the change of title. Only a little knowing smile

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## sasuke

The civilians are regularly harassed by the terrorists to provide accommodation. The people in the valley ( I mean those who are residents) have given up arms long back ... 

The armed militants are not really Indians .... they are here to cause ruckus and are killing those people who are not supporting them. Those infidel terrorists can't understand the pulse of the valley ... they just wanna terrorize the normal civilians in the valley. 

I believe that the Indian army should be more proactive and should take steps so that innocent civilians doesn't get killed by these terrorists ...


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## Bhairava

foxbat said:


> I remember when Coke modified its formula to make it sweeter and match Pepsi's sweeter drink, Pepsi world wide gave a day off to its marketing staff and took out a single page advertisement in all the major US publications. The line read...
> 
> *The Other Guy Blinked.*
> 
> This signified that Pepsi's successful market strategy forced Coke to do something out of character (changing the coke formula) and put it on defensive.
> 
> The way I see this change of title by the mods, I see it as a Pepsi moment for a lot of Indian members. The Other Guy Blinked
> 
> And this is not a complaint against the change of title. Only a little knowing smile




Foxbat...U rock man...!!!!


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## karan.1970

The below thread is also refering to the same incident among others. For the sake of consistency, shouldnt that be renamed too. If censoring is the flavor of the day, might as well go the whole 9 yards..

How prophetic did my comment in that thread turned out to be 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/70243-3-civilians-shot-dead-militants-j-k.html#post1086302


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## EjazR

^^^^Bangladesh is one of the most friendly country in south Asia. We have better relations with them than even Sri Lanka and much much better realtions than Nepal.

So I don't think it will be a 2nd Bangladesh. It will be unstable and China, Pakistan, India and other powers will keep interfering until it becomes like Afghanistan.


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## JonAsad

i knew something like this is going to happen, recently every one was talking of Indian army killing innocent kashmiries, and this type of false flag incident was bound to happen.
Shame on indian army.


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## Gucci

india will never give independence.it could be a national issue.and even kashmir cant survive b/w 3 powers which are nuclear.kashmiris will be bread toast if this happens.so better soln is to accept watever we r today.


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## Gucci

JonAsad said:


> i knew something like this is going to happen, recently every one was talking of Indian army killing innocent kashmiries, and this type of false flag incident was bound to happen.
> Shame on indian army.



u should also know(if u already know every thing) frm where those 3 innocents came.


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## gubbi

EjazR said:


> ^^^^Bangladesh is one of the most friendly country in south Asia. We have better relations with them than even Sri Lanka and much much better realtions than Nepal.
> 
> So I don't think it will be a 2nd Bangladesh. It will be unstable and China, Pakistan, India and other powers will keep interfering until it becomes like Afghanistan.



Just like Lebanon! It will become "Lebanon of the East"!


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## diva

The day it became indepedent Uncle sam will be sitting there because unkil can look upon china, india, russia, pakistan etc etc at the same time from there. And they will suffer the most brutalities just before they get independent. how much we deny but Indians and Pakistanis will mark them as traitors of their respective country as they fought for them.


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## Spring Onion

I had been saying this for long on this forum that if India and Pakistan failed to resolve it then one day US will walk in  that would be good for US and Kashmiris and bad for India and Pakistan.

I would still say US should think over having a base in IHK it will benefit US by giving her power to contain India, Pakistan and China.


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## diva

Jana said:


> I had been saying this for long on this forum that if India and Pakistan failed to resolve it then one day US will walk in  that would be good for US and Kashmiris and bad for India and Pakistan.
> 
> I would still say US should think over having a base in IHK it will benefit US by giving her power to contain India, Pakistan and China.



bas ek problem hai. If kashmir got independent and US came there we as indians and pakistanis wont have anything to fight left. Then who knows.... we start messing around with US in kashmir. After all we are so used to have villains in life...


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## Bhairava

Jana said:


> I had been saying this for long on this forum that if India and Pakistan failed to resolve it then one day US will walk in  that would be good for US and Kashmiris and bad for India and Pakistan.
> 
> I would still say US should think over having a base in IHK it will benefit US by giving her power to contain India, Pakistan and China.



Will Geelani saab allow another infidel to come inside his territory? 




diva said:


> bas ek problem hai. If kashmir got independent and US came there we as indians and pakistanis wont have anything to fight left. Then who knows.... we start messing around with US in kashmir. After all we are so used to have villains in life...



that will be good for a change...how long can we alone be fighting..? imagine US reaction wen stones are thrown on them...


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## Gucci

Jana said:


> I had been saying this for long on this forum that if India and Pakistan failed to resolve it then one day US will walk in  that would be good for US and Kashmiris and bad for India and Pakistan.
> 
> I would still say US should think over having a base in IHK it will benefit US by giving her power to contain India, Pakistan and China.



who will give permission to u.s???,either india or pakistan.
china wont let it through pak so option is india and india will let it only if indo-u.s target is same.


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## GreenStar

Who ever killed the Mother and daughter are scum....there should be an inquiry.


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## prototype

diva said:


> The day it became indepedent Uncle sam will be sitting there because unkil can look upon china, india, russia, pakistan etc etc at the same time from there. And they will suffer the most brutalities just before they get independent. how much we deny but Indians and Pakistanis will mark them as traitors of their respective country as they fought for them.



i 100% agree with that,Kashmir will have the next Joint base Balad a.k.a CAMP ANACONDA and another reality of Kashmir being the second Afghanistan


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## diva

Gucci said:


> who will give permission to u.s???,either india or pakistan.
> china wont let it through pak so option is india and india will let it only if indo-u.s target is same.



No India will never do it. It is never good to make a more powerful non trustworthy right on your head. We have a lost list of history of US what it has to allies. US can be a good partner not a friend.

As far as targets are concerned US has never achieved any of its targets as such in other regions specially in subcontinent.


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## sssss

Well,what i have come to know is that the MODS or ADMINS are not sticking to their posts,rather they should be labeled as ANTI INDIANS
Changing thread title,very rapid banning of Indian members,some mods and admins themselves using undesirable language and derailing threads..
AH,we gotta be careful.

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## civfanatic

RamGorur said:


> After effective withdrawal of Part A and B, exactly which part of that resolution still remains in moral support of your right to self-determination. To forward your point you had quoted B7, remember. If you don't here is the post.
> 
> 
> 
> What you can't get your head around is the fact that changed political circumstances also changed the perception on plebiscite. Try as you may, you will not find any support for your right to self-determination in any of the UN resolutions.



So You are arguing that UN dropped the idea of Plebiscite but strangely still wanted a mechanism for plebiscite administration ..

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## civfanatic

> After two months of almost continuous clampdowns and lockdowns, 60 systematic killings, and hundreds of incarcerations, the debate in India about protests in Kashmir has continued to hover between bleeding-heart liberal talk and state attempts at dissimulation. While state deception, and the Hindu right racket, is obvious, expected, and nothing new, the increased space for liberal discourse has given a false impression that there is a change in heart. The liberal discourse in India on the question of Kashmir is not open, fair, or objective, but often borders on, and oftentimes overlaps, the more popular, explicitly nationalist polemics.
> 
> *From news shows to newspaper articles every death in Kashmir is slyly or openly justified*. Since the day some protestors in Pampore and Srinagar burnt a few police jeeps and a couple of decrepit old, low-level government office structures, fit not even to be cowsheds, the Indian media suggested that people are shot because they attack public property. They tried to conceal the fact that most of the victims were killed before those structures were burnt down. But then even before the Pampore incidents big media in *India tried to create a moral equivalence between intentional murders of dozens of unarmed Kashmiri protestors and Indian paramilitary soldiers not getting enough rest, or their jeeps getting a few bumps*.
> 
> India&#8217;s &#8220;Kashmir experts&#8221; (some of them from Kashmir as well), who fall over each other to get a place on noisy and bogus talk shows in Delhi, have been bandying about that the current series of protests began with the June 11 killing of Tufail Mattoo. *The fake encounter killings of three young men in Machil and of a 70-year-old man in Kupwara, the fatal shooting of another man in Keller forests, the wanton killings of Zahid and Wamiq in Srinagar, and numerous others preceded Tufail&#8217;s death. Not only were these other killings deliberately forced to recede from the public view, but the immense suffering, the daily grind, humiliation and torture that marks life in Kashmir under military occupation continues to be glossed over*. *The gloss often is the much-abused fabrication that Kashmiris live off Indian taxpayers&#8217; money*. Somehow it is assumed that Kashmiris don&#8217;t pay taxes, or that Kashmir doesn&#8217;t have an economy of its own beyond the government dole. The fact deliberately obscured is that the very thin slice of Kashmiri society that does benefit from Indian handouts is the one the Indian state has actively promoted as a class of collaborators in Kashmir. These are mostly the people who appear on TV shows in Delhi, and their view is projected as the countervailing view to the Indian hawks, who saturate the public sphere in Delhi newsrooms. The problem is that these same people openly announce that common Kashmiris will lynch them if they went out of their security cocoons.
> 
> Then there are the nauseating media pundits who, on one side, show injured young children with bullet marks on their chests and, on the other, bring heavy mustached ex-military generals to offer their views on why children get shot. They implicitly announce that if Kashmiri children have to live, their parents better keep them inside their homes. This is the liberal Indian media. On the more popular platforms, like Rediff News or Times of India, respondents openly call for genocide of Kashmiris. It is crucial to read the low ethical barometer of this Delhi based media since it directly generates much Indian public opinion about Kashmir. How do societies become so pachydermic to gulp down with eager credulity such moral depravity? Even in the left&#8211;liberal big media, the systematic nature of deceit is clearly visible to the point that it has become farcical. The Hindu published an editorial that unscrupulously tried to make a case for curtailing Internet services to Kashmiris, one of the few places where the Indian government has not been completely successful in muzzling dissent. So disgruntled was this calumnious piece&#8217;s author that he created fictitious names to smear all the protest Kashmiris express online.
> 
> For long the existence of Kashmiri protest was shrugged off as directed by Pakistan. Now after those theories have fallen flat, attempts are made to mystify what Kashmiris want. Isn&#8217;t it truly baffling that, while the rest of the world clearly know what Kashmiris want, India&#8217;s liberal experts have a hard time comprehending this resounding reality? *For the last 20 years these experts have repeatedly asked the question: &#8220;But what do Kashmiris want?&#8221; *Kashmiris have declared what they want in clear, succinct slogans (always in English, and in Hindustani) over microphones, on banners, and in protests, by raising fists, throwing stones, and firing guns, through their tears, cries, and wails, through burnt homes, imprisoned lives, and wounded, life-deprive bodies.
> 
> *The ones, who have finally managed to read the writing on the bloodied wall, fulminate in self-righteous anger that India will never give azadi to Kashmiris*. This rejection of Kashmir&#8217;s freedom takes supercilious forms. They tell us Kashmiris to see &#8216;reason.&#8217; Free Kashmir is not viable. In return, we ask them, if unfree, occupied Kashmir is viable for Kashmiris? They tell us Kashmir will become another playground for Great Power politics, and we ask them if India&#8217;s denial of Kashmir&#8217;s right to self-determination has not already turned Kashmir into one. *Some of them warn us that independent Kashmir will be taken over by the U.S. *But we ask them, have India and Pakistan not been &#8216;taken over&#8217; by the U.S. already? Didn&#8217;t India eagerly, and without being asked, offer the U.S. its bases to attack Afghanistan? Don&#8217;t India and Pakistan race to Washington to get a little smile, a nod, a shoulder brush, an acknowledgement from Americans? *They even tell Kashmiris that we will not survive, because we are landlocked,* as if through history, which we successfully survived, we weren&#8217;t landlocked. (Are there no landlocked countries in the world?) And when these arguments sound all speculative, they tell us that Muslims in India will come under great threat from the majority Hindus if Kashmir separates from India. And, in the same breath they hasten to add that Indians are a tolerant, pluralist nation.
> 
> *Only in the end they tell us that we need to see the &#8220;harsh reality&#8221; of India&#8217;s power. Well, this is an argument that is shorn of fake sympathy for Kashmiris, of moral self-righteousness, and of the supercilious concern for the viability of an independent Kashmir*. This is an argument, which one can grant a degree of objectivity, if not morality. The argument that uses the rationale of India&#8217;s superior military power against the logic of the Kashmiri struggle for freedom, however, also lays bare the irreconcilable interests of the present nature of the Indian state and those of the Kashmiri people. To that question, however, we ask them, who more than Kashmiris has faced, and knows about, the &#8220;harsh reality&#8221; of India&#8217;s power? According to their argument it is clear that Kashmiris should live with the occupation, if they must at all. Some even point out that gradually the &#8220;perception&#8221; of military occupation will go away.
> 
> For instance, in a number of circles in India, it has falsely been argued that killings happen in reaction to protests, rather than the other way round. It is claimed that if protests were to stop, the so-called &#8220;cycle of death&#8221; will stop as well&#8212;a thesis India&#8217;s prime minister also delineated while asking Kashmiris to end protest. The fact is that the killings, protest or no protest, are intimately tied to the grating reality of the military occupation. This occupation, which lets half a million military personnel, along with a chain-link network of dark operatives of intelligence agencies, sit atop a dissenting population as a force for suppressive pacification, has uses for these regular killings. Regular killings, maiming, rapes and molestations, random raids and arrests, merciless beatings, forced labor, daily dishonor, are all employed to destroy our social bonds, to pulverize our sense of self, to create utter disillusionment and despondency, to demolish the basis for any claim to self-respect, and ultimately to tear apart being political from being Kashmiri and achieving the death of these feelings of belonging. Or better, kill politics and turn us Kashmiris into artifacts of our presumed culture. Is this in the Kashmiri national interest, one may ask those who justify it all in the name of &#8220;Indian national interest&#8221;?
> 
> Occupation is a vicious process. It has gradually entered, and continues to enter, all aspects of Kashmiri life. Mass protests are outbursts, impassioned attempts to wriggle free. Freedom from this occupation is not just an aspiration, a wish, or a longing for a pipedream, but a desperate need. The struggle for life in Kashmir is the struggle for freedom. The protests surely intensify the occupation, but they also render the beast more visible, and easier to grasp. Ending protest will definitely not end the occupation, only it will be a sure, if slow route to a form of death down the road. The liberal discourse covers up all the contradictions present in the forced relations between India and Kashmir, and sells the dream of the Great Indian Democracy, a dream which large number of Indians themselves hardly believe in any more. This liberal discourse, which is too close to power, doesn&#8217;t mediate between Kashmiris and the Indian state. It is often just a face of the latter, even if a more slippery one.


http://www.countercurrents.org/junaid110810.htm


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## RamGorur

civfanatic said:


> So You are arguing that UN dropped the idea of Plebiscite but strangely still wanted a mechanism for plebiscite administration ..


Nope. I am arguing that UN is acting as a neutral agent between the two countries. UN proposed the mechanism for plebiscite, because plebiscite is what both the countries had agreed to. 

Look at it this way. If both the countries had agreed to a match of kickboxing to resolve their dispute, then UN's role would have been that of a referee.


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## Bhairava

RamGorur said:


> Nope. I am arguing that UN is acting as a neutral agent between the two countries. UN proposed the mechanism for plebiscite, because plebiscite is what both the countries had agreed to.
> 
> Look at it this way. If both the countries had agreed to a match of kickboxing to resolve their dispute, then UN's role would have been that of a referee.



but the key difference here is ..if one player doesnt agree to "box" the referee cant automatically grant the match to the other player.

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## GUNNER

*New death sparks protests in Indian Kashmir*

SRINAGAR  Thousands of people poured on to the streets of Indian Kashmir summer capital Srinagar on Wednesday after another protester died, taking the toll of two months of violence to 64, police said.

The teenager who died in a Srinagar hospital on Wednesday had been admitted on Monday. Witnesses said he had been beaten by federal paramilitary forces during a protest against Indian rule.

Police said they were investigating the death that brought hundreds of locals out on the streets of Srinagar's Soura district chanting slogans.

"More and more people are joining them," a resident Farooq Ahmed told AFP over the telephone.

An AFP photographer said police fired several warning shots in the air to disperse the protesters who were carrying the corpse.

The scenic Kashmir region has been under rolling curfews to contain deadly protests that were sparked by the killing June 11 of a teenage student in the Srinagar by a police tear-gas shell.

Most parts of Srinagar were under strict curfew on Wednesday after Muslim separatists opposed to Indian rule in the region called upon the residents to hold anti-India protests across the region.

In Pampore town, 15 kilometres (nine miles), south of Srinagar, a young protester was wounded Wednesday when security forces opened fire to quell a demonstration, police said.


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## rameez ahmed

Indian terrorist army in Kashmir deserves far more worse fate than this... Hope Indian army gets even worse protest in Kashmir...


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## Durran3

How is this any different than the Israeli/Palestinian conflict... sure its on a much smaller scale but its pretty much the same thing..


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## IBRIS

civfanatic said:


> After two months of almost continuous clampdowns and lockdowns, 60 systematic killings, and hundreds of incarcerations, the debate in India about protests in Kashmir has continued to hover between bleeding-heart liberal talk and state attempts at dissimulation. While state deception, and the Hindu right racket, is obvious, expected, and nothing new, the increased space for liberal discourse has given a false impression that there is a change in heart. The liberal discourse in India on the question of Kashmir is not open, fair, or objective, but often borders on, and oftentimes overlaps, the more popular, explicitly nationalist polemics.
> 
> *From news shows to newspaper articles every death in Kashmir is slyly or openly justified*. Since the day some protestors in Pampore and Srinagar burnt a few police jeeps and a couple of decrepit old, low-level government office structures, fit not even to be cowsheds, the Indian media suggested that people are shot because they attack public property. They tried to conceal the fact that most of the victims were killed before those structures were burnt down. But then even before the Pampore incidents big media in *India tried to create a moral equivalence between intentional murders of dozens of unarmed Kashmiri protestors and Indian paramilitary soldiers not getting enough rest, or their jeeps getting a few bumps*.
> 
> India&#8217;s &#8220;Kashmir experts&#8221; (some of them from Kashmir as well), who fall over each other to get a place on noisy and bogus talk shows in Delhi, have been bandying about that the current series of protests began with the June 11 killing of Tufail Mattoo. *The fake encounter killings of three young men in Machil and of a 70-year-old man in Kupwara, the fatal shooting of another man in Keller forests, the wanton killings of Zahid and Wamiq in Srinagar, and numerous others preceded Tufail&#8217;s death. Not only were these other killings deliberately forced to recede from the public view, but the immense suffering, the daily grind, humiliation and torture that marks life in Kashmir under military occupation continues to be glossed over*. *The gloss often is the much-abused fabrication that Kashmiris live off Indian taxpayers&#8217; money*. Somehow it is assumed that Kashmiris don&#8217;t pay taxes, or that Kashmir doesn&#8217;t have an economy of its own beyond the government dole. The fact deliberately obscured is that the very thin slice of Kashmiri society that does benefit from Indian handouts is the one the Indian state has actively promoted as a class of collaborators in Kashmir. These are mostly the people who appear on TV shows in Delhi, and their view is projected as the countervailing view to the Indian hawks, who saturate the public sphere in Delhi newsrooms. The problem is that these same people openly announce that common Kashmiris will lynch them if they went out of their security cocoons.
> 
> Then there are the nauseating media pundits who, on one side, show injured young children with bullet marks on their chests and, on the other, bring heavy mustached ex-military generals to offer their views on why children get shot. They implicitly announce that if Kashmiri children have to live, their parents better keep them inside their homes. This is the liberal Indian media. On the more popular platforms, like Rediff News or Times of India, respondents openly call for genocide of Kashmiris. It is crucial to read the low ethical barometer of this Delhi based media since it directly generates much Indian public opinion about Kashmir. How do societies become so pachydermic to gulp down with eager credulity such moral depravity? Even in the left&#8211;liberal big media, the systematic nature of deceit is clearly visible to the point that it has become farcical. The Hindu published an editorial that unscrupulously tried to make a case for curtailing Internet services to Kashmiris, one of the few places where the Indian government has not been completely successful in muzzling dissent. So disgruntled was this calumnious piece&#8217;s author that he created fictitious names to smear all the protest Kashmiris express online.
> 
> For long the existence of Kashmiri protest was shrugged off as directed by Pakistan. Now after those theories have fallen flat, attempts are made to mystify what Kashmiris want. Isn&#8217;t it truly baffling that, while the rest of the world clearly know what Kashmiris want, India&#8217;s liberal experts have a hard time comprehending this resounding reality? *For the last 20 years these experts have repeatedly asked the question: &#8220;But what do Kashmiris want?&#8221; *Kashmiris have declared what they want in clear, succinct slogans (always in English, and in Hindustani) over microphones, on banners, and in protests, by raising fists, throwing stones, and firing guns, through their tears, cries, and wails, through burnt homes, imprisoned lives, and wounded, life-deprive bodies.
> 
> *The ones, who have finally managed to read the writing on the bloodied wall, fulminate in self-righteous anger that India will never give azadi to Kashmiris*. This rejection of Kashmir&#8217;s freedom takes supercilious forms. They tell us Kashmiris to see &#8216;reason.&#8217; Free Kashmir is not viable. In return, we ask them, if unfree, occupied Kashmir is viable for Kashmiris? They tell us Kashmir will become another playground for Great Power politics, and we ask them if India&#8217;s denial of Kashmir&#8217;s right to self-determination has not already turned Kashmir into one. *Some of them warn us that independent Kashmir will be taken over by the U.S. *But we ask them, have India and Pakistan not been &#8216;taken over&#8217; by the U.S. already? Didn&#8217;t India eagerly, and without being asked, offer the U.S. its bases to attack Afghanistan? Don&#8217;t India and Pakistan race to Washington to get a little smile, a nod, a shoulder brush, an acknowledgement from Americans? *They even tell Kashmiris that we will not survive, because we are landlocked,* as if through history, which we successfully survived, we weren&#8217;t landlocked. (Are there no landlocked countries in the world?) And when these arguments sound all speculative, they tell us that Muslims in India will come under great threat from the majority Hindus if Kashmir separates from India. And, in the same breath they hasten to add that Indians are a tolerant, pluralist nation.
> 
> *Only in the end they tell us that we need to see the &#8220;harsh reality&#8221; of India&#8217;s power. Well, this is an argument that is shorn of fake sympathy for Kashmiris, of moral self-righteousness, and of the supercilious concern for the viability of an independent Kashmir*. This is an argument, which one can grant a degree of objectivity, if not morality. The argument that uses the rationale of India&#8217;s superior military power against the logic of the Kashmiri struggle for freedom, however, also lays bare the irreconcilable interests of the present nature of the Indian state and those of the Kashmiri people. To that question, however, we ask them, who more than Kashmiris has faced, and knows about, the &#8220;harsh reality&#8221; of India&#8217;s power? According to their argument it is clear that Kashmiris should live with the occupation, if they must at all. Some even point out that gradually the &#8220;perception&#8221; of military occupation will go away.
> 
> For instance, in a number of circles in India, it has falsely been argued that killings happen in reaction to protests, rather than the other way round. It is claimed that if protests were to stop, the so-called &#8220;cycle of death&#8221; will stop as well&#8212;a thesis India&#8217;s prime minister also delineated while asking Kashmiris to end protest. The fact is that the killings, protest or no protest, are intimately tied to the grating reality of the military occupation. This occupation, which lets half a million military personnel, along with a chain-link network of dark operatives of intelligence agencies, sit atop a dissenting population as a force for suppressive pacification, has uses for these regular killings. Regular killings, maiming, rapes and molestations, random raids and arrests, merciless beatings, forced labor, daily dishonor, are all employed to destroy our social bonds, to pulverize our sense of self, to create utter disillusionment and despondency, to demolish the basis for any claim to self-respect, and ultimately to tear apart being political from being Kashmiri and achieving the death of these feelings of belonging. Or better, kill politics and turn us Kashmiris into artifacts of our presumed culture. Is this in the Kashmiri national interest, one may ask those who justify it all in the name of &#8220;Indian national interest&#8221;?
> 
> Occupation is a vicious process. It has gradually entered, and continues to enter, all aspects of Kashmiri life. Mass protests are outbursts, impassioned attempts to wriggle free. Freedom from this occupation is not just an aspiration, a wish, or a longing for a pipedream, but a desperate need. The struggle for life in Kashmir is the struggle for freedom. The protests surely intensify the occupation, but they also render the beast more visible, and easier to grasp. Ending protest will definitely not end the occupation, only it will be a sure, if slow route to a form of death down the road. The liberal discourse covers up all the contradictions present in the forced relations between India and Kashmir, and sells the dream of the Great Indian Democracy, a dream which large number of Indians themselves hardly believe in any more. This liberal discourse, which is too close to power, doesn&#8217;t mediate between Kashmiris and the Indian state. It is often just a face of the latter, even if a more slippery one.



your 2 cents are copied and pasted from a India hater here called MBI Munshi, nice way of ripping paragraphs from different articles. 
http://waronyou.com/forums/index.php?topic=17101.0

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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Wednesday, 25 August 2010
Ramazan 14, 1431 **New Death Sparks Protests in Kashmir​*


> *SRINAGAR: Thousands of people poured on to the streets of Srinagar on Wednesday after another protester died, taking the toll of two months of violence to 64, police said.*
> 
> The teenager who died in a Srinagar hospital on Wednesday had been admitted on Monday. Witnesses said *he had been beaten by federal paramilitary forces during a protest against Indian rule.*
> 
> Police said they were investigating the death that brought hundreds of locals out on the streets of Srinagar's Soura district chanting slogans.
> 
> *More and more people are joining them, a resident Farooq Ahmed told AFP over the telephone.*
> 
> An AFP photographer said police fired several warning shots in the air to disperse the protesters who were carrying the corpse.
> 
> The Kashmir region has been under rolling curfews to contain deadly protests that were sparked by the killing June 11 of a teenage student in the Srinagar by a police tear-gas shell.
> 
> Most parts of Srinagar were under strict curfew on Wednesday after separatists opposed to Indian rule in the region called upon the residents to hold anti-India protests across the region.
> 
> *In Pampore town, 15 kilometres, south of Srinagar, a young protester was wounded Wednesday when security forces opened fire to quell a demonstration, police said.*
> 
> Militants have fought a 20-year insurgency in Indian-administered Kashmir against rule from New Delhi.
> 
> The mountainous region, held in part by Pakistan and India but claimed in full by both, has been the cause of two of the three wars the countries have fought since independence from Britain more than half a century ago.




DAWN.COM | World | New death sparks protests in Kashmir


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## civfanatic

RamGorur said:


> Nope. I am arguing that UN is acting as a neutral agent between the two countries. UN proposed the mechanism for plebiscite, because plebiscite is what both the countries had agreed to.
> 
> Look at it this way. If both the countries had agreed to a match of kickboxing to resolve their dispute, then UN's role would have been that of a referee.



It is strange that you have been reduced to prove your assertion by repeating that assertion .


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## RamGorur

civfanatic said:


> It is strange that you have been reduced to prove your assertion by repeating that assertion .


Alternatively, you remain just as clueless as ever about how UN works and conducts its affairs under Chapter VI. The status UN assumes in case of complaints filed under Chapter VI is always that of a referee. 

@*Gounder*

That is correct.


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## Gucci

Saleem said:


> 99% of the atrocities in East Pakistan were caused by Indian Army trained terrorists against those who were loyal or potentially loyal to pakistan. this had the double benefit (for the indians) of provoking retaliation from loyal citizens of pakistan.
> 
> AS I said earlier, all terrorists deserve equal punishment. this should include the Indian Army officers who trained the terrorists - the Indian Army officers are on record as having admitted to training the Muktis.
> 
> Include the the Indian Army trained SOG (special operations group - the only thing special about these renegades is their inhumanity) in Kashmir.





> 99% of the atrocities in East Pakistan were caused by Indian Army



ur army was responsible for the rape of thousands of ppl in bd.

Bangladesh Genocide Archive

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## InPhilTraitor

Saleem said:


> 99% of the atrocities in East Pakistan were caused by Indian Army trained terrorists against those who were loyal or potentially loyal to pakistan. this had the double benefit (for the indians) of provoking retaliation from loyal citizens of pakistan.
> 
> AS I said earlier, all terrorists deserve equal punishment. this should include the Indian Army officers who trained the terrorists - the Indian Army officers are on record as having admitted to training the Muktis.
> 
> Include the the Indian Army trained SOG (special operations group - the only thing special about these renegades is their inhumanity) in Kashmir.




we are responsible for jewish holocaust and armenian genocide.. if you did not know before.

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## Bhairava

Durran3 said:


> How is this any different than the Israeli/Palestinian conflict... sure its on a much smaller scale but its pretty much the same thing..



Nope they are as different as different can get.

Posted by myself in another thread.




> *Palestine* - UN recognised right to indpendence,*Kashmir* - Un doesnt recognise independence
> 
> *Palestine* - Did any ruler formally accede to Israel - NO ; *Kashmir* - the Maharaja formally signed the instrument of accession to make it a part of India.
> 
> *Palestine* - are the Palestinians chased out from Palestine- yes ; *Kashmir* - are the Kashmiris chased outfrom Kashmir - no (if the Hindus/Sikhs/Jains qualify as "Kashmiris" then maybe Yes)
> 
> *Palestine* - is their territory being occupied by settlers - yes : *Kashmir* - is territory being occupied by Hindu settlers from rest of India - NO
> *
> Palestine* - do Tanks ,bulldozers regularly demolish homes,buildings - YES ; *Kashmir* - Have Tanks even come once inside SriNagar - NO
> 
> *Palestine* - Do attack Helicopters regularly fire missiles at anything moving - YES ; *Kashmir* - Does that thing happen here - NO
> 
> *Palestine* - IS any HAMAS leader safe from MOSSAD - NO ; *Kashmir* - IS any hair on the head of a separatist leader harmed - NO .Infact they are given treatment at the taxpayers expense in Delhi and Mumbai
> 
> 
> *Palestine *- Do the Israeli police calmly bear all the stones thrown on them - NO ;* Kashmir* - Poor CRPF not even allowed to fire and given only a lathi in hand.
> 
> *Palestine* - IS there a shortage of basic materials - YES ; *Kashmir* - one of the least poor states in India with annual assitance going into thousands of crores.
> 
> *Palestine* - IS there any blockade of essential supplies in place - YES ; *Kashmir* - NO

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## Abu Zolfiqar

all references NOT related to Kashmir should be deleted......if you want to troll, go take it to bharat-rhatgarbage.com


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## Gucci

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> all references NOT related to Kashmir should be deleted......if you want to troll, go take it to bharat-rhatgarbage.com



u shud c who started this first



> go take it to bharat-rhatgarbage.com



it clarifies more


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## Dash

I have so many kashmiri friends with me who have come be being irritated by the activity happaning there. One was a wood merchant and now he came Bangalore.


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## EjazR

*DAWN.COM | Front Page | Shoot-on-sight order in Gilgit after heavy firing*


GILGIT: A shoot-on-sight order was issued after two rival groups resorted to heavy aerial firing soon after Iftar near Yadgar Chowk here on Wednesday, police said.

Two people were gunned down in the same area on Tuesday. Sources said that paramilitary troops and police came to the area only after the shootout subsided.

More than 70,000 bullets were fired. Three houses were burnt, but there were no casualties.

Gilgits assistant commissioner told Dawn that the situation eased after the administration called in Punjab Rangers and Northern Area scouts.

Police sources said that no arrest had been made nor did they register any case.

Incidents of firing were also reported from Nagaral, Kashrote, Majini Muhallah and some other parts of the region.

Gilgit has seen a spree of target killings over the past four days. Four people were killed in two days.


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## GentlemanObserver

> More than 70,000 bullets were fired.



Where do they get these figures from?


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## karan.1970

It mentions 2 rival groups. Is it some kind of a gang war ? 70000 bullets.. ??


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## third eye

This is the holy month, one would expect some sanity during this month at least.

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## civfanatic

> Srinagar, Aug 25: Yet another youth succumbed to his injuries on Wednesday, taking the total number of civilians killed by police and CRPF during the ongoing unrest to 64, bringing the toll at par with the killings during the summer agitation of 2008 over the transfer of land to Amarnath Shrine Board.
> Omar Qayoum Bhat son of Abdul Qayoum Bhat of Malik Sahab, Soura, died at SK Institute of Medical Sciences today. Doctors said 17-year old Omar was admitted in the institute on August 23.
> He had internal injuries. His lungs were bleeding and were badly damaged. His condition worsened today and he succumbed, a senior doctor at SKIMS told Greater Kashmir.
> Omar, a class XI student, was picked up by police on August 20 along with two other youthAmir Bashir Sheikh son of Bashir Ahmad of Umarheir, Buchpora, and Irshad Ahmad Bhat son of Ghulam Qadir of Dar Mohalla, Soura.
> However, the three were granted bail a few days later by a court and they went home. Omar, his family said, was admitted to the SKIMS as blood started oozing from his month and he complained of severe pain on August 23. They said he was tortured in police custody.
> Massive protests broke out in Soura and its neighbourhood as people, young and old, poured onto streets and staged pro-freedom demonstrations against his death.
> He was brutally tortured in the custody and it is a cold blooded murder, locals said. Omar was the only son of his parents. He has three sisters.
> The angry protesters pelted police and CRPF with stones who responded by caning, lobbing tear smoke ammunition and pump action shots.
> The protesters also set ablaze a police vehicle, JK02B-4826, and damaged an Alto car, JKO1J-2756, of a police officer. They also attempted to set ablaze the old residence of National Conference founder, Sheikh Abdullah.
> The ding-dong battles, which continued till late in the evening, left nearly half 18 protesters injured.
> Several of them were admitted to SKIMS where doctors said six had sustained pellet injuries and two had been thrashed by forces.
> Late in the evening, protests erupted in uptown Barzulla after police picked up two teenagers during raids. Locals said police arrested Owais Ahmad and Muhammad Younis from old Barzulla.
> Police caned protesters and lobbed teargas shells to disperse them. Locals said they beat up people and damaged the window panes of a Masjid in the locality.
> Meanwhile, police and CRPF were deployed heavily across the city. They imposed curfew in the areas falling under the jurisdiction of police stations Batamloo, Bemina, Qamarwari, Kralkhud, Nowhatta, Khanyar, Maharajgunj, Safakadal, Maisuma, Shaheedgunj and Abi-guzar area of Kothibagh on the orders of district administration.
> 
> FIRING IN PAMPORE, YOUTH INJURED:
> A youth was critically injured in Pampore town of South Kashmir district of Pulwama when the paramilitary forces opened fire on a procession Wednesday afternoon.
> Eyewitnesses said a youth identified as Javed Ahmed Bhat, 20, son of Abdul Ahad Bhat of Frastibal, Pampore, was injured when CRPF personnel without any provocation fired at a peaceful procession near Drangbal, Pampore, on Srinagar-Jammu highway.
> Javaid received bullet injuries in his neck and was rushed to SMHS in Srinagar, where his condition is said to be critical.
> As soon as the word about the firing incident spread in the town thousands of people from Drangabal, Frastibal and Kadalbal came out on streets and protested against the CRPF action. They also burnt tyres and erected barricades at various places and blocked the highway for several hours. Army was then pressed into service and it conducted a flag march.
> The army personnel also caught hold of three youth and thrashed them mercilessly, said the eyewitnesses adding that the injured youth were admitted in the sub-district hospital Pampore.
> Angry youth then clashed with police and CRPF at various places.
> The protesters resorted to heavy stone pelting on police who retaliated by tear gas shelling and firing several rounds in air. The protesters also attacked a police and CRPF vehicle with stones and bricks, damaging them. Clashes were going on when reports last came in.
> Restrictions were imposed in Pulwama township also amid reports of protest demonstrations from Preechoo, Rajpora and Chatipora areas.
> Similar restrictions were enforced in Awantipora and Tral areas with reports of protest demonstrations. Pro-freedom demonstrations also rocked Shopian town and its adjoining areas.
> Reports of protest demonstrations were also received from Kulgam and Qaimoh towns and the adjoining areas.
> In Bijbehara town also severe restrictions were imposed and police and CRPF men were deployed in strength.
> In Islamabad town despite severe restrictions youth took to streets at various areas in old town- Cheeni Chowk, Reeshi Bazar, Malakhnag, Lal Chowk- and entered into clashes with police and CRPF. The forces lobbed tear gas canisters to disperse the youth who retaliated by hurling stones and bricks. Reports of demonstrations were also received from certain civil lines area of K.P road- Khanabal, Laizibal, Gulshanabad. Clashes were on till late in the evening.
> Reports of shutdown poured in form north Kashmir districts and towns of Sopur, Varmul, Ganderbal, Kupwara, Handwara and Bandipora.
> 
> POLICE SPEAKS:
> A section of mourners in Soura indulged in arson and stone pelting on an armed police picket by setting on fire a police vehicle and a private vehicle. Police intervened and chased away the mob using minimum force, a police spokesman said.
> A huge mob today resorted to heavy stone pelting on the vehicles passing through Pampore. A vehicle was damaged and the driver suffered some injuries. The police used mild lathi charge and chased away the stone pelting mob. However, one injured namely Javed Ahmad Bhat has been admitted in SMHS Hospital with shoulder and neck injuries. Police has taken cognizance and is looking into the matter. The condition of the injured is so far stable, he said.


Tortured Soura teenager succumbs Lastupdate:- Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com


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## GentlemanObserver

third eye said:


> This is the holy month, one would expect some sanity during this month at least.



Sanity from this lot... Please! BTW how the hell did they count the 75,000 shell casings? Utter sensationalist nonsense.


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## civfanatic

Uploaded with ImageShack.us





Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## greatsequence

Possibly a shia sunni rift.


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## Bhairava

civfanatic said:


> Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Are they protesting for the killing of the mother-daughter duo by the militants or something else.??


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## civfanatic

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

URL=http://img810.imageshack.us/i/39493420849576595289434.jpg/]




[/URL]


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## RPK

*Time to tell Pakistan to return Kashmir areas: Farooq - Hindustan Times*

It is time to tell Pakistan "in one voice" that it should return to India parts of Kashmir under its control and the area it has gifted to China, union minister and former Jammu and Kashmir chief minister Farooq Abdullah said on Thursday. Participating in a debate in the Lok Sabha on the unrest in 

the Kashmir Valley, Abdullah, who heads the state's ruling National Conference party, said he was surprised none of the MPs mentioned about the parts of Jammu and Kashmir under Pakistani and Chinese control.

Today, I am surprised that nobody has talked about Kashmir under Pakistan occupation which they call Azad Kashmir, nobody talked about Northern Areas of Gilgit Baltistan and Skardu, nobody talked about the territory Pakistan gave away to China, Abdullah said.

He asserted that it was the time to tell Pakistan in one voice that it should return to us the part of Kashmir it has occupied and given away to China.

Pitching hard for the restoration of autonomy to Jammu and Kashmir, the former chief minister said if Kashmir has to remain an integral part of India you will have to open your hearts to us".

Kashmir has not acceded to India by force... It chose to become a part of India belonging to Gandhi and Nehru," he recalled.

But today, I regret that when we open our hearts to you, you don't even recognise us...Every corner of our heart has India written over it. When we brought the autonomy resolution, I thought we will join hearts. But you let me down, he said, referring to the National Conference's autonomy resolution of 2000 which was trashed by the then Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP)-led National Democratic Alliance government. 

(Then prime minister Atal Bihari) Vajpayee told me he had not even read the autonomy. I pleaded before him to read it as it is all well within the ambit of the constitution, Abdullah said.

You have to win the hearts of Kashmiris...People who have laid down their lives don't want jobs or money. They want justice, he told the house, with folded hands.

He said the role of the media in the Kashmir Valley was disappointing and the newspapers published from Srinagar were adding fuel to the fire. 

Abdullah looked upwards at the press gallery in the house and again folded his hands pleading to the journalists sitting there to be objective and report facts from the Kashmir Valley. 

The renewed unrest in the Kashmir Valley since June 11 has seen 64 people killed, mostly in firing by security forces, during clashes.


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## RPK

*People of Kashmir don't want separation, says Farooq Abdullah*

New Delhi: Union Minister Farooq Abdullah made a passionate appeal in Parliament for a political solution to the Kashmir crisis.

Speaking on the importance of winning hearts to win over Kashmir, Farooq said " I plead with my hands folded, try to understand the pulse of Kashmir. People of Kashmir don't want separation from India."

His remarks came during a debate in the Lok Sabha on the Kashmir situation."We want to find a solution within India and not outside," said Abdullah

Earlier, the BJP had said that autonomy for Kashmir is not acceptable


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## karan.1970

this is gonna blow.....


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## civfanatic

> Srinagar, August 24: *When the police were unable to look for a seven-year-old 'protester' from Nund Reshi colony in Bemina, Srinagar, they allegedly roughed up other members of his family and also offered locals Rs one lakh as a reward for information on the child. *
> Bashir Ahmad Lone (50) and his father, Habibulla (75) were beaten up by the police when they could not find Danish alias Bret Lee, the youngest member of the family.
> 
> They were looking for my seven-year old brother Danish alias Bret Lee. But when they couldnt find him, the police got frustrated and ruthlessly beat up my father and grandfather who they also taken into custody, said Danishs brother Aamir.
> 
> Aamir added that the police officials even did not even spare the other members of the locality, They harassed our mothers and sisters they even told others that if you provide us with information on Danish you would be given Rs one lakh in cash.
> 
> Even Aamir was not spared, he alleged, I was abused and beaten up by the police.
> 
> Danish would never take part in protests. I cant understand why they all are after my grandson, asked a shaken Habibullah.
> 
> On Saturday, the police and the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) carried out a crackdown on Beminas Nund Reshi Colony.
> 
> Locals alleged that the forces entered their homes without making any announcements in the area and rummaged through their things. They told the youth and elders of colony to go to the mosque for an identification parade after sealing off the area, said Atif Khan (name changed), a local.
> 
> Speaking to Kashmir Dispatch, Atif added, that a youth, working as an informer for the police pinpointed some 40 youth from the area, who were picked up by the police.
> 
> Later, 33 of them were released after locals protested for their release. The police booked seven of them and charged them under Section 105 of the RPC, said SHO Zahoor Ahmed.
> 
> Meanwhile, the streets were lined up with troopers who refused to allow people to offer prayers. Locals said that the police broke windowpanes of houses, mosques and the darazgah.
> 
> The police are not firing tear gas shells to disperse the crowd but they are targeting the houses of our locality during the time of iftaar. We dont drink milk and water or dates and bread but we take their bullets and inhale the tear gas smoke. The troopers have broken down our electric transformers and our water tanks, lamented Samar Jan (name changed), another local.
> 
> Samar, further said that the police who blamed senior citizens of the area as the kingpins of the stone pelting beat their area president.
> 
> All the posters of the martyrs have been taken off the walls and have been putt in cow dung, Samar said. He added, Police even said that if you will not surrender Danish and stop agitating in the area, girls would be targeted and their heads would be shaved off.
> 
> Meawhile, SHO Zahoor rubbished the allegations, We have been always telling the locals not to create law and order problems. The stone throwers extort money from the passersby. We have been encountering these types of complaints. So, strong action has to be taken to maintain law and order in the society.



Kashmir Dispatch Jammu and Kashmir Latest news and analysis

Indian Security agencies have completly lost the plot in kashmir


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## Bhairava

civfanatic said:


> [ =http://img820.imageshack.us/i/45999140911722612025100.jpg/] http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/8919/45999140911722612025100.jpg[/IMG][/ ]
> 
> [=http://img214.imageshack.us/i/18inkashmir1165064f.jpg/] http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7748/18inkashmir1165064f.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> [=http://img826.imageshack.us/i/52708115.jpg/] http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/9815/52708115.jpg[/IMG][/ ]
> 
> Uploaded with [ =http://imageshack.us]ImageShack.us
> 
> =http://img810.imageshack.us/i/39493420849576595289434.jpg/] http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9696/39493420849576595289434.jpg[/IMG]



My answer to you:



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i have no sympathy at all for those poor ''oppressed'' 'pundits'



this was originally posted by Abu and thanked by you.Exactly my feelings for all those in the picture or other separatists.

*p.s.:* the last photo of a Sikh soldier is actually of a tear gas gun..so FAIL.


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## civfanatic

Freedom Vs tyranny


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## Nahraf

Kashmir issue must be raised in all international forums and during talks with foreign leaders. This only helps Pakistan cause over illegal Indian occupation of Kashmir. Thanks for raising the issue.


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## karan.1970

^ This was in the Indian Parliament.


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## Bhairava

Exactly Offense is the best form of defense.

We should not give Pakistan room and time to think about our part of Kashmir.

We should take the issue of P.O.K whenever and wherever possible such that they go on the defensive regarding P.O.K and dont have sufficient time to worry about ours.

Now they talk about J&K because they know very well that India woont raise a voice regarding their part.

That should change.


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## GentlemanObserver

> It is time to tell Pakistan "in one voice" that it should return to India parts of Kashmir under its control and the area it has gifted to China, union minister and former Jammu and Kashmir chief minister Farooq Abdullah said on Thursday.





Wait... Your serious...


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## Bhairava

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/70245-protestors-kashmir-face-stones-their-own-bitter-pill.html

Good going...


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## civfanatic

Gounder said:


> My answer to you:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *p.s.:* the last photo of a Sikh soldier is actually of a tear gas gun..so FAIL.



Almost 30% of deaths in that happened during current protests have been due to callous use by Indian Forces ....See the image , Inspite of instructions Tear gas shells are directly fired .






Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## TaimiKhan

apna wala Kashmir sambhala nahien jata, baitay koo jootay alag pertay hain, her rozz kisi nae kisi masoom ko mara jata hai and chalay Azad Kashmir kooo hath yanay, takay Azad kooo bhi banay dae Jail Kashmir. 

Wah Wah, kiyaa kehnaaa.

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## Bhairava

civfanatic said:


> Almost 30&#37; of deaths in that happened during current protests have been due to callous use by Indian Forces ....See the image , Inspite of instructions Tear gas shells are directly fired .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Sorry Still I have no sympathies for separatists.They are getting what they deserve


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## Speaker

A thread with an biased, offensive title, and some people think this forum is better than BR.


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## third eye

TaimiKhan said:


> apna wala Kashmir sambhala nahien jata, baitay koo jootay alag pertay hain, her rozz kisi nae kisi masoom ko mara jata hai and chalay Azad Kashmir kooo hath yanay, takay Azad kooo bhi banay dae Jail Kashmir.
> 
> Wah Wah, kiyaa kehnaaa.



Aap ke mulk mein kaun se phool baraste hain ?

Roj ke 2- 3 bamb phate hain.

Bhai , Haman mein sab nange hain !

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## Malik Usman

Farooq Abdalla is idian Agent and Pupit in the hand's of Indian govt. so his concerns don't have value......these concerns are true if they come from realy Kashmiri leaders (Leaders of Peoples) and who are on the streets with peoples protesting againts the burality of Indian army with unarmmed civilian peoples.


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## Gucci

govt should consider this,who has tied their hands


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## Kambojaric

Oh god this man is a disgrace to his grandfather, look at him begging, as far as i remember a shoe was thrown at him just a few weeks ago when he was raising the indian flag, that tells you what the average Kashmiri thinks about this man!


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## civfanatic

Gounder said:


> Sorry Still I have no sympathies for separatists.They are getting what they deserve



Great loss for us


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## Gucci

civfanatic said:


> Great loss for us



it depends on ur thinking.


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## third eye

Hamza Iqbal said:


> Oh god this man is a disgrace to his grandfather, look at him begging, as far as i remember a shoe was thrown at him just a few weeks ago when he was raising the indian flag, that tells you what the average Kashmiri thinks about this man!



Whom are you talking of ?

This is Farooq not Umar.


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## GentlemanObserver

Gucci said:


> govt should consider this,who has tied their hands



LOL.. This post has made my day, i mean this guys is actually taking that idiot's rant seriously! 

Firstly don't be so naive, secondly why would china give you back what is under their control... And Thirdly, do you really think "you" are in a position to demand anything?


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## friendly_troll96

phassi viyan chidyaan chhord k ud'dyaan pichhay bhaagi jaanday nay... shoday mun'aan aalay bhaarti!

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## Patriot

Sure Go Ahead try it!!!
.
.
What a retard like plenty of other Indians who live in delusional world.

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## Malik Usman

Coud be fight between 2 groups and possible some firing was also aoccured...But 75000 bullets its like hell 2 armies are angaging....its some kind of tale.


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## Gucci

Paladin said:


> LOL.. This post has made my day, i mean this guys is actually taking that idiot's rant seriously!
> 
> Firstly don't be so naive, secondly why would china give you back what is under their control... And Thirdly, do you really think "you" are in a position to demand anything?



it depends on govt.it was asked to the govt that they shud go for this.



> do you really think "you" are in a position to demand anything?



read the history than talk abt the position.


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## Bhairava

Paladin said:


> LOL.. This post has made my day, i mean this guys is actually taking that idiot's rant seriously!



Just because he doesnt say what you want to say..doesnt make him an idiot.In that case we too have some special adjectives for Geelani,Mirwaiz etc.

No need to get uncivil mate



Paladin said:


> Firstly don't be so naive, secondly why would china give you back what is under their control



So what makes you guys think that India will give back what is under their control.?



Paladin said:


> ... And Thirdly, do you really think "you" are in a position to demand anything?



It will be good if you can ask the question yourselves once.


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## TaimiKhan

third eye said:


> Aap ke mulk mein kaun se phool baraste hain ?
> 
> Roj ke 2- 3 bamb phate hain.
> 
> Bhai , Haman mein sab nange hain !



Roj roj Azad Kashmir mae tu atleast nahien phat tay hain, Indian orange media kaa kamal legtaa hai, misinformation. Pakistan mae phat tay hain, naa kae Azad Kashmir mae. 

Aap logon ki terha roj roj masoomo ko tu nahien martay, maon behnoo ki izat tu nahien loot tay, 60,000 bae naam kabroon mae logon ko tu nahien phainkaa howaaaa. 

Izat lootanay sae tu behter kae bomb blast mae hi yeah mayeen behnay shaheed hoo jayeen, kuch tu izat reh hi jayee gi, aap loog tu izat hi nahien rehnay daitay.

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## Frankenstein

seriously they cant even control there part of Kashmir, they want to occupy ours aswel, so devastating, seems lyk they are obsessed by human rights violation


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## third eye

TaimiKhan said:


> Roj roj Azad Kashmir mae tu atleast nahien phat tay hain, Indian orange media kaa kamal legtaa hai, misinformation. Pakistan mae phat tay hain, naa kae Azad Kashmir mae.
> 
> Aap logon ki terha roj roj masoomo ko tu nahien martay, maon behnoo ki izat tu nahien loot tay, 60,000 bae naam kabroon mae logon ko tu nahien phainkaa howaaaa.
> 
> Izat lootanay sae tu behter kae bomb blast mae hi yeah mayeen behnay shaheed hoo jayeen, kuch tu izat reh hi jayee gi, aap loog tu izat hi nahien rehnay daitay.




"Hoi hai wahi jo Ram rachi raka,

ko kar tarak barahawe saka .


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## Patriot

Frankenstein said:


> seems lyk they are obsessed by human rights violation


More like mentally retarded.


----------



## sasuke

Paladin said:


> LOL.. This post has made my day, i mean this guys is actually taking that idiot's rant seriously!
> 
> Firstly* don't be so naive*, secondly why would china give you back what is under their control... And Thirdly, *do you really think "you" are in a position to demand anything?*



I beg to differ on who is the most idiotic person here! 

Same question back at you? Do you really think that Pakistan is in a position to demand anything? 

In search for strategic depth ... it's just breeding terrorism both inside its own state and supporting terrorists to disturb the peace in neighboring countries!!! 

Regarding Farooq's view ... it's surprising that India is ready to make the LOC as international border... to win the heart of Kashmiri's India should go for integrating whole of Kashmir ... which rightfully belongs to it.

If there's going to be another misadventure in near future ... Given the pace at which India is equipping itself ... it will and it should go for whole of Kashmir. But that is a big *IF*

SPFS to Farooq's views ....


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## FreekiN

Come and take it


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## Frankenstein

TaimiKhan said:


> *Roj roj* Azad Kashmir mae tu atleast nahien phat tay hain, Indian orange media kaa kamal legtaa hai, misinformation. Pakistan mae phat tay hain, naa kae Azad Kashmir mae.
> 
> Aap logon ki terha *roj roj* masoomo ko tu nahien martay, maon behnoo ki izat tu nahien loot tay, 60,000 bae naam kabroon mae logon ko tu nahien phainkaa howaaaa.
> 
> Izat lootanay sae tu behter kae bomb blast mae hi yeah mayeen behnay shaheed hoo jayeen, kuch tu izat reh hi jayee gi, aap loog tu izat hi nahien rehnay daitay.



 jin logon ne urdu ejad (invent) ki hogi unki ruh (spirit) tarap rahe hogi


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## Gucci

Frankenstein said:


> seriously they cant even control there part of Kashmir, they want to occupy ours aswel, so devastating, seems lyk they are obsessed by human rights violation



we r capable to control kashmir.have u ever seen 1 cm of kashmir gone to pak or got independence.u tried enough n protestor tried enough.plz dont say we cant handle this.watever is necessary govt will do.


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## Areesh

third eye said:


> Aap ke mulk mein kaun se phool baraste hain ?
> 
> Roj ke 2- 3 bamb phate hain.
> 
> Bhai , Haman mein sab nange hain !



Aap ka desh aatang phailai ga to yeh to hoga. Laikin farooq ch**tie ko bata dain kai auqat main rahai.

Bacha hai nang kar kai marain gai.


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## Iggy

Can you guys please fight in English ..its hard to understand what you guys are saying


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## GentlemanObserver

Gounder said:


> Just because he doesnt say what you want to say..doesnt make him an idiot.In that case we too have some special adjectives for Geelani,Mirwaiz etc.
> 
> No need to get uncivil mate
> 
> 
> 
> So what makes you guys think that India will give back what is under their control.?
> 
> 
> 
> It will be good if you can ask the question yourselves once.





> ust because he doesnt say what you want to say..doesnt make him an idiot.In that case we too have some special adjectives for Geelani,Mirwaiz etc.



Cuz he says want you want to say.. Am i Right? 



> No need to get uncivil mate


 Mate.. Juding by the recent troll fests and pak bashing sessions, my post was very composed.... No need to get touchy mate! 



> So what makes you guys think that India will give back what is under their control.?



LOL... Talk about turning the question around? Read the thread Sherlock, it was in response the the original thread discussion. Tit for tat much? 



> It will be good if you can ask the question yourselves once.



LOL, well actually Y*OU guys ask us this all the time*... So Why don't you do us a favour and ASK yourselves first...


----------



## Areesh

sasuke said:


> If there's going to be another misadventure in near future ... Given the pace at which India is equipping itself ... it will and it should go for whole of Kashmir. But that is a big *IF*
> 
> SPFS to Farooq's views ....



And when your country would go for whole Kashmir we would make sure that India's economy would return to 1947 position. India is big enough to collapse but not big enough to expand. Auqat main raho bachai.


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## praveen007

kabro ki baat to nahi kare to accha hai nahi to kargil me daffan sekro ruhe jo aaj tak apno ke liye tarasi hai kya shochenge


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## sssss

Patriot said:


> Sure Go Ahead try it!!!
> .
> .
> What a retard like plenty of other Indians who live in delusional world.




What do you mean!
The Weak and small Indian army is scared of the worlds strongest and mighty Pakistani army!


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## Awesome

Dumb tactics to shift the focus away from the riots, trying to provoke tensions on Kashmir with Pakistan. Farooq has been called in to tackle the situation when his son has failed and has been getting jootas from Kashmiris.

This is just Farooq Abdullah with his typical dugdugi trying to get some attention.

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## friendly_troll96

TaimiKhan said:


> *Roj roj* Azad Kashmir mae tu atleast nahien phat tay hain, Indian orange media kaa kamal legtaa hai, misinformation. Pakistan mae phat tay hain, naa kae Azad Kashmir mae.
> 
> Aap logon ki terha *roj roj* masoomo ko tu nahien martay, maon behnoo ki izat tu nahien loot tay, 60,000 bae naam kabroon mae logon ko tu nahien phainkaa howaaaa.
> 
> Izat lootanay sae tu behter kae bomb blast mae hi yeah mayeen behnay shaheed hoo jayeen, kuch tu izat reh hi jayee gi, aap loog tu izat hi nahien rehnay daitay.



There are a couple of errors in your post; you may want to reword it!

Fat tay

Naa ki

Ijat

Fainka

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## sssss

FreekiN said:


> Come and take it



well if we want,we will,but the thing is that we want peace.
Dont tell me you ll challenge us in terms of military,anyhow.


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## GentlemanObserver

sasuke said:


> I beg to differ on who is the most idiotic person here!
> 
> Same question back at you? Do you really think that Pakistan is in a position to demand anything?



Lo jee... Another one, firstly read the OP's post. Then think about what your saying then feel how stupid that question to me was! 

Who is demanding what from who?


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## TaimiKhan

third eye said:


> "Hoi hai wahi jo Ram rachi raka,
> 
> ko kar tarak barahawe saka .



You meant:

"hoga wahi jo ram rachi rakha,

ko kar tarak badhave sakha "

Atleast sahi tu bool diya karooo Sir.

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## Gucci

Areesh said:


> And when your country would go for whole Kashmir we would make sure that India's economy would return to 1947 position. India is big enough to collapse but not big enough to expand. Auqat main raho bachai.



during 1947 india was not so enough weak.*after all in 1947 we gave u 300 crore rupees which u havent returnned yet.*

india cant collapse but reverse is possible .read the history.

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## TaimiKhan

Asim Aquil said:


> Dumb tactics to shift the focus away from the riots, trying to provoke tensions on Kashmir with Pakistan. Farooq has been called in to tackle the situation when his son has failed and has been getting jootas from Kashmiris.
> 
> This is just Farooq Abdullah gwith his typical *dugdui *trying to get some attention.


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## pmukherjee

What atrocities has the Indian Army carried out in Bangladesh? None that I know of, none that anyone knows of for that matter. Why then is a Bangladeshi getting his nickers in a twist? As a Bangladeshi, Idune should be more concerned about the atrocities carried out by the Pak Army in his own country.


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## Areesh

Farooq should do what he used to do in his whole life.


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## sssss

Isn't it simple?
Pakistan is not even 6th of our military and 8th of our economy,If India wants it,it can get it back easily.


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## Trac

Malik Usman said:


> Farooq Abdalla is idian Agent and Pupit in the hand's of Indian govt. so his concerns don't have value......*these concerns are true if they come from realy Kashmiri leaders (Leaders of Peoples) and who are on the streets with peoples protesting againts the burality of Indian army with unarmmed civilian peoples.*



I think he is elected by People of J&K not by GOI 
Secondly I think you are talking about those hurriet terrorist (leaders )

And protest 
Kashmir stone pelters get a taste of their own medicine - India - DNA


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## Frankenstein

Gucci said:


> we r capable to control kashmir.have u ever seen 1 cm of kashmir gone to pak or got independence.u tried enough n protestor tried enough.*plz dont say we cant handle this.watever is necessary govt will do.*



I can see that, your gov thinks what necessary is if they kill sm innocent kashmiris it willl help them to control it, bravo!


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## Areesh

Gucci said:


> during 1947 india was not so enough weak.*after all in 1947 we gave u 300 crore rupees which u havent returnned yet.*
> 
> india cant collapse but reverse is possible .read the history.



Those 300 crore were also Pakistan's money dear. Kisi kai **** kai nahi thai jo wapis karain.


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## Awesome

This is funnier than Vajpayee's we'll do "decisive action" against Pakistan.

About 10 years on, Indians haven't shown us any action.

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## Trac

*I wish people from P O K got power to elect their own government cause till now they are not independent and their government selected by GOP* 

Best of luck for them


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## friendly_troll96

sssss said:


> What do you mean!
> The Weak and small Indian army is scared of the worlds strongest and mighty Pakistani army!



O ni, your army isn't scared, bhartis are just kind enough to not invade Pakistan!


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## Gucci

Areesh said:


> Those 300 crore were also Pakistan's money dear. Kisi kai **** kai nahi thai jo wapis karain.





how????

best post ever


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## Leviza

this is sh*t coz he is loosing kashmire to Pakistan....
IOK is on UN panel as disputed area who cares what india says and think , world know it as disputed area and Pakistan is the main country and kashmir is a part of Pakistan or india will dividein 1000 more counties choice is yours


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## Areesh

sssss said:


> Isn't it simple?
> Pakistan is not even 6th of our military and 8th of our economy,If India wants it,it can get it back easily.



Just do it dear.

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## Areesh

Gucci said:


> how????
> 
> best post ever



Read history buddy. Not by some pathetic Indian but some one else.You would know how.


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## Trac

Frankenstein said:


> I can see that, your gov thinks what necessary is if they kill sm innocent kashmiris it willl help them to control it, bravo!



Terrorists kill mother-daughter duo in Kashmir - India News - IBNLive

Stone pelters get a backlash in Kashmir valley - NorthLines Leading Newspaper Jammu Kashmir


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

I predict another shoe throwing incident.



> But today, I regret that when we open our hearts to you, you don't even recognise us...Every corner of our heart has India written over it.


Poor choice of words for the current situation unless they are meant for an Indian audience.

But on the whole hez right about the hypocrisy of the separatists who ignore parts of JK in China and Pakistan.


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## sssss

Asim Aquil said:


> This is funnier than Vajpayee's we'll do "decisive action" against Pakistan.
> 
> About 10 years on, Indians haven't shown us any action.



Unfortunately,we don't want to hamper our international image.
India is known as a peace loving country and has never been an aggressor,unlike you.
What do you think,its hard for India to overcome Pakistan in the present day scenario?
Your economy is terribly damaged,military is wayyyyy to smaller than us,do you really stand a chance against us?
After all Pakistan is the 10th failed state and you are talking about comparing it against worlds 2nd fastest growing economy?
You lag in economy,you lag in military,you lag in everything.

If India shows you the "Action",future generation might not be able to see "Pakistan" on the map.


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## prototype

Asim Aquil said:


> This is funnier than Vajpayee's we'll do "decisive action" against Pakistan.
> 
> About 10 years on, Indians haven't shown us any action.



is it more funnier than 63 yrs of so called freedom struggle and calls to annihilate India in every 2nd minute


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## Bhairava

Paladin said:


> Cuz he says want you want to say.. Am i Right?



I just said no need to call him an idiot just because he says something not likable to you.

Anything wrong in that.?




Paladin said:


> Mate.. Juding by the recent troll fests and pak bashing sessions, my post was very composed.... No need to get touchy mate!



Im not getting touchy..and there is no need to....I just said what I think..its upto you to do what you think is best.




Paladin said:


> LOL... Talk about turning the question around? Read the thread Sherlock, it was in response the the original thread discussion. Tit for tat much?



I read about the thread Watson.If there are so many threads about one part of the disputed territory ,,,I dont see anything wrong in ahaving a thread for another part of the disputed territory.

After all P0K is also disputed territory only na.



Paladin said:


> LOL, well actually Y*OU guys ask us this all the time*... So Why don't you do us a favour and ASK yourselves first...



yes we can both ask ourselves.And do you remember what responses you guys used to give wen Indian members asked that.? 

*p.s.:*.*this thread is the present the management has given for reachin 1 million posts.So guys pull up your socks,get down and enjoy.*

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## r3alist

he is reading from an autocue, big deal

its interesting he made no mention of choice, therefore he is a fool!


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## sssss

Areesh said:


> Just do it dear.



Its easy for us,
BTW care to reply"6th of our military and 8th of our economy"?
You missed to reply on it.


----------



## Gucci

Areesh said:


> Read history buddy. Not by some pathetic Indian but some one else.You would know how.



if those were yours then u r sitting on indian land.it means our govt shud demand whole pk ,leaving aside the kashmir


----------



## Iggy

First of all Taimi have to say its hard to understand your Hindi/Urdu ..had to spent some time for it..



TaimiKhan said:


> Roj roj Azad Kashmir mae tu atleast nahien phat tay hain, Indian orange media kaa kamal legtaa hai, misinformation. Pakistan mae phat tay hain, naa kae Azad Kashmir mae.



Taimi there was a thread about agitations of Pakistan occupied kashmir opened here..is you are sure that there is no issue in Azad Kashmir why you felt unsecured about that thread and closed it??


> Aap logon ki terha roj roj masoomo ko tu nahien martay, maon behnoo ki izat tu nahien loot tay, 60,000 bae naam kabroon mae logon ko tu nahien phainkaa howaaaa.



Yes innocents are dead there..but tell me is this only the fault of our security personals??people get killed in the cross fire,terrorists are also killing people for taking medical help from a army camp..what kind of freedon fighters are they taimi?dont tell me it may be Army men because not a single news article was posted there blaiming army even from Kashmiri papers..and about raping and killing..the less say the better..History is full of it mate..



> Izat lootanay sae tu behter kae bomb blast mae hi yeah mayeen behnay shaheed hoo jayeen, kuch tu izat reh hi jayee gi, aap loog tu izat hi nahien rehnay daitay.



Yes our Army is send there for raping only..I am not saying incidents like this not happend..but are we given strict punishments against them..and some like Sophian murder were girls were drowned,some tried to say it was raped and even treatend doctor to write the report as rape ..some way of freedom fighting..

Security personals only resort to firing when they had no choice..and 2/3 rd of them are Kashmiries now..also tide is changing now..people had enough of this blockade by some idiots in this name of Freedom fighting..now they are welcomed with stones..


----------



## GentlemanObserver

Trac said:


> *I wish people from P O K got power to elect their own government cause till now they are not independent and their government selected by GOP*
> 
> Best of luck for them



LOL:
Azad Jammu & Kashmir


----------



## Frankenstein

Gucci said:


> during 1947 india was not so enough weak.*after all in 1947 we gave u 300 crore rupees which u havent returnned yet.*
> 
> india cant collapse but reverse is possible .read the history.



i think you are talking about the money which Britishers gave to India to distribute it equally among Pakistan and India, but India tried to eat away every single rupee, some how Ghandi stoped them and only some amount of our money was returned, not all of it, so *India have to pay wat they stole from us*


----------



## friendly_troll96

Gucci said:


> during 1947 india was not so enough weak.*after all in 1947 we gave u 300 crore rupees which u havent returnned yet.*
> 
> india cant collapse but reverse is possible .*read the history*.



Short memory, huh?

Id suggest you do the same; why dont you read the history of bhaartis yourself?


----------



## Trac

sssss said:


> Unfortunately,we don't want to hamper our international image.
> India is known as a peace loving country and has never been an aggressor,unlike you.
> What do you think,its hard for India to overcome Pakistan in the present day scenario?
> *Your economy is terribly damaged,military is wayyyyy to smaller than us,do you really stand a chance against us?*
> *After all Pakistan is the 10th failed state and you are talking about comparing it against worlds 2nd fastest growing economy?*
> You lag in economy,you lag in military,you lag in everything.
> 
> If India shows you the "Action",future generation might not be able to see "Pakistan" on the map.



100% true

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## Areesh

sssss said:


> Its easy for us,
> BTW care to reply"6th of our military and 8th of our economy"?
> You missed to reply on it.



As I said. Just do it Bharti.


----------



## r4rehan

give kashmiriz right to chose their way where ever they want to go ,,,,,,


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## Areesh

Gucci said:


> if those were yours then u r sitting on indian land.it means our govt shud demand whole pk ,leaving aside the kashmir



That is why I asked you to read history buddy. And you know the truth about that money you had given.


----------



## Trac

Areesh said:


> As I said. Just do it Bharti.



You already lose 4 war , 

4 time try for Kahsmir and Got kick on .............

Now your county wish that India-China go for war so you can make any profit otherwise your* military is just for noting *


----------



## GentlemanObserver

Children, Children... please! The guy who posted this went full retard, never go full retard.. As for posts from some of the Indians.... LOL!


----------



## Areesh

Trac said:


> You already lose 4 war ,
> 
> 4 time try for Kahsmir and Got kick on .............
> 
> Now your county wish that India-China go for war so you can make any profit otherwise your* military is just for noting *



As I said don't just make claims dear. Just do it.


----------



## Awesome

sssss said:


> Unfortunately,we don't want to hamper our international image.
> India is known as a peace loving country and has never been an aggressor,unlike you.
> What do you think,its hard for India to overcome Pakistan in the present day scenario?
> Your economy is terribly damaged,military is wayyyyy to smaller than us,do you really stand a chance against us?
> After all Pakistan is the 10th failed state and you are talking about comparing it against worlds 2nd fastest growing economy?
> You lag in economy,you lag in military,you lag in everything.
> 
> If India shows you the "Action",future generation might not be able to see "Pakistan" on the map.



1. You need balls
2. You need balls that work.

Pakistan is sitting good, India can only do the dugdugi show and play their murlis. Decisive Inaction.

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## Frankenstein

Trac said:


> *I wish people from P O K got power to elect their own government cause till now they are not independent and their government selected by GOP*
> 
> Best of luck for them



Are you trying to be funny , wassup with your part of kashmir, are they controlling it or is your army controlling it?? you army is not only controlling it but also violating their rights, impressive, your army is like nazis


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

This doesn't deserve to be in this section, it looks like a gang rivalry to me. And seriously, 70, 000 shells? Only blind nationalists would believe that.

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## Kashmiri Nationalist

prototype said:


> i 100% agree with that,Kashmir will have the next Joint base Balad a.k.a CAMP ANACONDA and another reality of Kashmir being the second Afghanistan



You are talking about Kashmir being the second Afghanistan, but you are clueless when it comes to the customs of the Kashmiri people. Afghanistan =/= Kashmir. Also, I'd just like to say when the creation of Pakistan was in the works people said it wouldn't be a viable option either.


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## prototype

Azad Kashmir said:


> You are talking about Kashmir being the second Afghanistan, but you are clueless when it comes to the customs of the Kashmiri people. Afghanistan =/= Kashmir. Also, I'd just like to say when the creation of Pakistan was in the works people said it wouldn't be a viable option either.



i am not say about the customs of Kashmir and Afghan,i was saying if it came under the shadow of U.S,ur so called freedom fighters is going to again create havoc there


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## EjazR

Its from Dawn, the location is part of Kashmir historical state. And there is a curfew and shoot at sight orders. I think its relevant in this section.

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## GentlemanObserver

EjazR said:


> Its from Dawn, the location is part of Kashmir historical state. And there is a curfew and shoot at sight orders. I think its relevant in this section.



Still 75,000 shells... That looks like a figure someone pulled out of their A$$..


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## Spring Onion

Paladin said:


> Still 75,000 shells... That looks like a figure someone pulled out of their A$$..



Then there must be 75,000 holes out there too

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## syntax_error

who had the galtling gun ..... ???

coz if one wasnt involved ... the amount to ppl/time required to fire 70k rounds is simple huge....


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## bc040400065

Jana said:


> I had been saying this for long on this forum that if India and Pakistan failed to resolve it then one day US will walk in  that would be good for US and Kashmiris and bad for India and Pakistan.
> 
> I would still say US should think over having a base in IHK it will benefit US by giving her power to contain India, Pakistan and China.



And Kashmir might end up another Isreal .... They might get lots of US aid and militry help then ....


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## mjnaushad

Not related to Kashmir war.......

Mods please move to suitable section.....

and 75000 is way manipulated figure.

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## karan.1970

What I find funny?? 70000 shells, no casualties... Thank God.. But someone is a lousy shot..

why would Dawn manipulate.. Unless it was a typo...


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## irfan1173

AoA
Read carefully. It says aerial fire. that's why no casualty.


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## Mogambo

Paladin said:


> Still 75,000 shells... That looks like a figure someone pulled out of their A$$..



write a letter to editor to pakistani newspaper Dawn who have reported it.


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## Mogambo

mjnaushad said:


> Not related to Kashmir war.......
> 
> Mods please move to suitable section.....
> 
> and 75000 is way manipulated figure.



And who manipulated it RAW Mosaad CIA??

And the Dawn news says 70,000 don't add 5000 to it.


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## Mogambo

EjazR said:


> *DAWN.COM | Front Page | Shoot-on-sight order in Gilgit after heavy firing*
> 
> 
> GILGIT: A shoot-on-sight order was issued after two rival groups resorted to heavy aerial firing soon after Iftar near Yadgar Chowk here on Wednesday, police said.
> 
> Two people were gunned down in the same area on Tuesday. Sources said that paramilitary troops and police came to the area only after the shootout subsided.
> 
> More than 70,000 bullets were fired. Three houses were burnt, but there were no casualties.
> 
> Gilgits assistant commissioner told Dawn that the situation eased after the administration called in Punjab Rangers and Northern Area scouts.
> 
> Police sources said that no arrest had been made nor did they register any case.
> 
> Incidents of firing were also reported from Nagaral, Kashrote, Majini Muhallah and some other parts of the region.
> 
> Gilgit has seen a spree of target killings over the past four days. Four people were killed in two days.



That means Kashmir under pakistani control is allowing shoot at sight and they people rant when we do the same even in extreme situations. What a hippocrasy

Reactions: Like Like:
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## BATMAN

EjazR said:


> Its from Dawn, the location is part of Kashmir historical state. And there is a curfew and shoot at sight orders. I think its relevant in this section.



Dude the report is about Gilgit not Kashmir.

Gilgit is war zone any way and i suspect a clash between covert indian gorkha / sikh regiment and locals.


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## BATMAN

Mogambo said:


> That means Kashmir under pakistani control is allowing shoot at sight and they people rant when we do the same even in extreme situations. What a hippocrasy



You have been doing it from ages and nothing is credible as long indian stooges are ruling in Pakistan.


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## mjnaushad

Mogambo said:


> And who manipulated it RAW Mosaad CIA??
> 
> And the Dawn news says 70,000 don't add 5000 to it.


From where CIA, RAW, Mossad came into the topic.....

Please refrain from trolling.....

Because this thread will again end up in some real harsh argument....

I wonder why aren't you banned.....Yesterday you last msg on a thread clearly said "Pakistani bast@rds". Right before the thread got deleted.......Looks like MODS didnt read that....


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## mjnaushad

Mogambo said:


> That means Kashmir under pakistani control is allowing shoot at sight and they people rant when we do the same even in extreme situations. What a hippocrasy


People here dont even know difference between "Bullets fired" and "Protest"......


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## Bhairava

civfanatic said:


> Great loss for us



Definitely a huge loss for you.

Do you think you can get a separate Kashmir if 1.2 billion Indians think otherwise.?


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## aligilgiti

I belong to Gilgit.... when it comes to sectarian clashes .... it;s a full scale battle ..... even RPG's, Anti Air Crafts and mortars are used .... so please don't wonder about 70 thousand bullets .... it's nothing


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## GentlemanObserver

aligilgiti said:


> I belong to Gilgit.... when it comes to sectarian clashes .... it;s a full scale battle ..... even RPG's, Anti Air Crafts and mortars are used .... so please don't wonder about 70 thousand bullets .... it's nothing



LOL yeah sure!


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## pak-marine

it must be sectarian lots of shia and agakhani shia are living in gilgit


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## sparklingway

*China's Discreet Hold on Pakistan's Northern Borderlands*
By SELIG S. HARRISON
Published: August 26, 2010

While the world focuses on the flood-ravaged Indus River valley, a quiet geopolitical crisis is unfolding in the Himalayan borderlands of northern Pakistan, where Islamabad is handing over de facto control of the strategic Gilgit-Baltistan region in the northwest corner of disputed Kashmir to China.

The entire Pakistan occupied western portion of Kashmir stretching from Gilgit in the north to Azad (Free) Kashmir in the south is closed to the world, in contrast to the media access that India permits in the eastern part, where it is combating a Pakistan-backed insurgency. But reports from a variety of foreign intelligence sources, Pakistani journalists and Pakistani human rights workers reveal two important new developments in Gilgit-Baltistan: a simmering rebellion against Pakistani rule and the influx of an estimated 7,000 to 11,000 soldiers of the People&#8217;s Liberation Army.

China wants a grip on the region to assure unfettered road and rail access to the Gulf through Pakistan. It takes 16 to 25 days for Chinese oil tankers to reach the Gulf. When high-speed rail and road links through Gilgit and Baltistan are completed, China will be able to transport cargo from Eastern China to the new Chinese-built Pakistani naval bases at Gwadar, Pasni and Ormara, just east of the Gulf, within 48 hours.

Many of the P.L.A. soldiers entering Gilgit-Baltistan are expected to work on the railroad. Some are extending the Karakoram Highway, built to link China&#8217;s Sinkiang Province with Pakistan. Others are working on dams, expressways and other projects.

Mystery surrounds the construction of 22 tunnels in secret locations where Pakistanis are barred. Tunnels would be necessary for a projected gas pipeline from Iran to China that would cross the Himalayas through Gilgit. But they could also be used for missile storage sites.

Until recently, the P.L.A. construction crews lived in temporary encampments and went home after completing their assignments. Now they are building big residential enclaves clearly designed for a long-term presence.

What is happening in the region matters to Washington for two reasons. Coupled with its support for the Taliban, Islamabad&#8217;s collusion in facilitating China&#8217;s access to the Gulf makes clear that Pakistan is not a U.S. &#8220;ally.&#8221; Equally important, the nascent revolt in the Gilgit-Baltistan region is a reminder that Kashmiri demands for autonomy on both sides of the cease-fire line would have to be addressed in a settlement.

Media attention has exposed the repression of the insurgency in the Indian-ruled Kashmir Valley. But if reporters could get into the Gilgit-Baltistan region and Azad Kashmir, they would find widespread, brutally-suppressed local movements for democratic rights and regional autonomy.

When the British partitioned South Asia in 1947, the maharajah who ruled Kashmir, including Gilgit and Baltistan, acceded to India. This set off intermittent conflict that ended with Indian control of the Kashmir Valley, the establishment of Pakistan-sponsored Free Kashmir in western Kashmir, and Pakistan&#8217;s occupation of Gilgit and Baltistan, where Sunni jihadi groups allied with the Pakistan Army have systematically terrorized the local Shiite Muslims.

Gilgit and Baltistan are in effect under military rule. Democratic activists there want a legislature and other institutions without restrictions like the ones imposed on Free Kashmir, where the elected legislature controls only 4 out of 56 subjects covered in the state constitution. The rest are under the jurisdiction of a &#8220;Kashmir Council&#8221; appointed by the president of Pakistan.

India gives more power to the state government in Srinagar; elections there are widely regarded as fair, and open discussion of demands for autonomy is permitted. But the Pakistan-abetted insurgency in the Kashmir Valley has added to tensions between Indian occupation forces and an assertive population seeking greater of local autonomy.

The United States is uniquely situated to play a moderating role in Kashmir, given its growing economic and military ties with India and Pakistan&#8217;s aid dependence on Washington. Such a role should be limited to quiet diplomacy. Washington should press New Delhi to resume autonomy negotiations with Kashmiri separatists. Success would put pressure on Islamabad for comparable concessions in Free Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan. In Pakistan, Washington should focus on getting Islamabad to stop aiding the insurgency in the Kashmir Valley and to give New Delhi a formal commitment that it will not annex Gilgit and Baltistan.

Precisely because the Gilgit-Baltistan region is so important to China, the United States, India and Pakistan should work together to make sure that it is not overwhelmed, like Tibet, by the Chinese behemoth.

Selig S. Harrison is director of the Asia Program at the Center for International Policy and a former South Asia bureau chief of The Washington Post. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/27/opinion/27iht-edharrison.html?_r=1


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## civfanatic

Gounder said:


> Definitely a huge loss for you.
> 
> Do you think you can get a separate Kashmir if 1.2 billion Indians think otherwise.?



Strange now 1.2 billion also think ....When did that happen .


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## RamGorur

^^ The article is a keeper. Some parts highlighted


NYT Editorial said:


> *The entire Pakistan occupied western portion of Kashmir stretching from Gilgit in the north to Azad (Free) Kashmir in the south is closed to the world, in contrast to the media access that India permits in the eastern part, where it is combating a Pakistan-backed insurgency.* But reports from a variety of foreign intelligence sources, Pakistani journalists and Pakistani human rights workers reveal two important new developments in Gilgit-Baltistan: *a simmering rebellion against Pakistani rule and the influx of an estimated 7,000 to 11,000 soldiers of the Peoples Liberation Army.*


Did I hear some balloon pop?



> Media attention has exposed the repression of the insurgency in the Indian-ruled Kashmir Valley. But *if reporters could get into the Gilgit-Baltistan region and Azad Kashmir, they would find widespread, brutally-suppressed local movements for democratic rights and regional autonomy.*


Some more popping balloons.



> *Gilgit and Baltistan are in effect under military rule. Democratic activists there want a legislature and other institutions without restrictions like the ones imposed on Free Kashmir, where the elected legislature controls only 4 out of 56 subjects covered in the state constitution.* The rest are under the jurisdiction of a Kashmir Council appointed by the president of Pakistan.
> 
> *India gives more power to the state government in Srinagar; elections there are widely regarded as fair, and open discussion of demands for autonomy is permitted.* But the Pakistan-abetted insurgency in the Kashmir Valley has added to tensions between Indian occupation forces and an assertive population seeking greater of local autonomy.


NOOOOOOO.....he did not just say that? Did he?

I understand that the Chinese angle of the story is a matter of concern, but somehow I just can't stop LoLing.

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## roach

Now I know why Pakistan-Usurped-Kashmir (PUK) is never in the news- there aren't any reporters!!! That must be some can of worms they have there. Looking forward to hearing more about the 'Liberated' part of Kashmir lol


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## karan.1970

^ Now we know why the world does not join in when Pakistan makes noises on the protests in Jammu & Kashmir


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## Areesh

sparklingway said:


> *China's Discreet Hold on Pakistan's Northern Borderlands*
> By SELIG S. HARRISON
> Published: August 26, 2010
> 
> While the world focuses on the flood-ravaged Indus River valley, a quiet geopolitical crisis is unfolding in the Himalayan borderlands of northern Pakistan, where Islamabad is handing over de facto control of the strategic Gilgit-Baltistan region in the northwest corner of disputed Kashmir to China.
> 
> The entire Pakistan occupied western portion of Kashmir stretching from Gilgit in the north to Azad (Free) Kashmir in the south is closed to the world, in contrast to the media access that India permits in the eastern part, where it is combating a Pakistan-backed insurgency. But reports from a variety of foreign intelligence sources, Pakistani journalists and Pakistani human rights workers reveal two important new developments in Gilgit-Baltistan: a simmering rebellion against Pakistani rule and the influx of an estimated 7,000 to 11,000 soldiers of the Peoples Liberation Army.
> 
> China wants a grip on the region to assure unfettered road and rail access to the Gulf through Pakistan. It takes 16 to 25 days for Chinese oil tankers to reach the Gulf. When high-speed rail and road links through Gilgit and Baltistan are completed, China will be able to transport cargo from Eastern China to the new Chinese-built Pakistani naval bases at Gwadar, Pasni and Ormara, just east of the Gulf, within 48 hours.
> 
> Many of the P.L.A. soldiers entering Gilgit-Baltistan are expected to work on the railroad. Some are extending the Karakoram Highway, built to link Chinas Sinkiang Province with Pakistan. Others are working on dams, expressways and other projects.
> 
> Mystery surrounds the construction of 22 tunnels in secret locations where Pakistanis are barred. Tunnels would be necessary for a projected gas pipeline from Iran to China that would cross the Himalayas through Gilgit. But they could also be used for missile storage sites.
> 
> Until recently, the P.L.A. construction crews lived in temporary encampments and went home after completing their assignments. Now they are building big residential enclaves clearly designed for a long-term presence.
> 
> What is happening in the region matters to Washington for two reasons. Coupled with its support for the Taliban, Islamabads collusion in facilitating Chinas access to the Gulf makes clear that Pakistan is not a U.S. ally. Equally important, the nascent revolt in the Gilgit-Baltistan region is a reminder that Kashmiri demands for autonomy on both sides of the cease-fire line would have to be addressed in a settlement.
> 
> Media attention has exposed the repression of the insurgency in the Indian-ruled Kashmir Valley. But if reporters could get into the Gilgit-Baltistan region and Azad Kashmir, they would find widespread, brutally-suppressed local movements for democratic rights and regional autonomy.
> 
> When the British partitioned South Asia in 1947, the maharajah who ruled Kashmir, including Gilgit and Baltistan, acceded to India. This set off intermittent conflict that ended with Indian control of the Kashmir Valley, the establishment of Pakistan-sponsored Free Kashmir in western Kashmir, and Pakistans occupation of Gilgit and Baltistan, where Sunni jihadi groups allied with the Pakistan Army have systematically terrorized the local Shiite Muslims.
> 
> Gilgit and Baltistan are in effect under military rule. Democratic activists there want a legislature and other institutions without restrictions like the ones imposed on Free Kashmir, where the elected legislature controls only 4 out of 56 subjects covered in the state constitution. The rest are under the jurisdiction of a Kashmir Council appointed by the president of Pakistan.
> 
> India gives more power to the state government in Srinagar; elections there are widely regarded as fair, and open discussion of demands for autonomy is permitted. But the Pakistan-abetted insurgency in the Kashmir Valley has added to tensions between Indian occupation forces and an assertive population seeking greater of local autonomy.
> 
> The United States is uniquely situated to play a moderating role in Kashmir, given its growing economic and military ties with India and Pakistans aid dependence on Washington. Such a role should be limited to quiet diplomacy. Washington should press New Delhi to resume autonomy negotiations with Kashmiri separatists. Success would put pressure on Islamabad for comparable concessions in Free Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan. In Pakistan, Washington should focus on getting Islamabad to stop aiding the insurgency in the Kashmir Valley and to give New Delhi a formal commitment that it will not annex Gilgit and Baltistan.
> 
> Precisely because the Gilgit-Baltistan region is so important to China, the United States, India and Pakistan should work together to make sure that it is not overwhelmed, like Tibet, by the Chinese behemoth.
> 
> Selig S. Harrison is director of the Asia Program at the Center for International Policy and a former South Asia bureau chief of The Washington Post.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/27/opinion/27iht-edharrison.html?_r=1



The crap article already posted somewhere else and discussed. 

Useless.

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## Spring Onion

Areesh said:


> The crap article already posted somewhere else and discussed.
> 
> Useless.



 SG always look for some American Conspiracy theory 

Its all fault of China and all these 750000000 oppsss did i cross the number, bullets have been fired to keep Chinese hold there


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## roach

Areesh said:


> The crap article already posted somewhere else and discussed.
> 
> Useless.



Of course it's crap. It doesn't agree with your world-view, that's why it's crap. It makes you think, that's why it's crap. It's makes you uncomfortable, that's why it's crap.

Unless kids like you grow a pair and learn to face reality, there is no hope for your nation. Stop your posturing and false pride, and grow out of your victimized mindset.


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## GentlemanObserver

roach said:


> Of course it's crap. It doesn't agree with your world-view, that's why it's crap. It makes you think, that's why it's crap. It's makes you uncomfortable, that's why it's crap.
> 
> Unless kids like you grow a pair and learn to face reality, there is no hope for your nation. Stop your posturing and false pride, and grow out of your victimized mindset.



Your signature suits your personality perfectly, take a cue from it. Bash your head against the keyboard and repeat until unconscious. 

Back on topic:


> It doesn't agree with your world-view


Same can be said for articles mentioning India in a negative spotlight.



> It makes you think, that's why it's crap. It's makes you uncomfortable, that's why it's crap.


No, it's crap because it's crap... 75,000 rounds of ammo... Spare me, please!



> Unless kids like you grow a pair and learn to face reality


 and by posting that statement your exhibiting the epitome of maturity, right? Listen to yourself!



> there is no hope for your nation.


So now your Judge, Jury and Executioner? 



> Stop your posturing



That's funny ever since i have been visiting these forums all i see here is Indian trolls trying to undermine Pakistan and strut around in a shameless display of self glorification.



> and grow out of your victimized mindset.



Same can be said to you regarding IOK... Now take a chill pill and do consider what i said about the keyboard meeting your face, a few hard blows to your cranium may get those synapses sparking again.


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## Bhairava

civfanatic said:


> Strange now 1.2 billion also think ....When did that happen .



That exactly is my point.Normally majority of the Indians dont give a shyt about Kashmir or what is going on there.All we know is that it is in the safe hands of India.

So dont make us think.

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## kattu-mian

> The discomfort Kashmiris feel is about which laws self-rule must be under, and Hurriyat rejects a secular constitution



What ails Kashmir? The Sunni idea of ?azadi? - Columns - livemint.com


We know what Hurriyat Conference wants: azadi, freedom. But freedom from what? Freedom from Indian rule. Doesn&#8217;t an elected Kashmiri, Omar Abdullah, rule from Srinagar?

Yes, but Hurriyat rejects elections. Why? Because ballots have no azadi option.But why can&#8217;t the azadi demand be made by democratically elected leaders? Because elections are rigged through the Indian Army. Why is the Indian Army out in Srinagar and not in Surat? Because Kashmiris want azadi.

Let&#8217;s try that again.


What do Kashmiris want freedom from? India&#8217;s Constitution.

What is offensive about India&#8217;s Constitution? It is not Islamic. This is the issue, let us be clear.

The violence in Srinagar isn&#8217;t for democratic self-rule because Kashmiris have that. The discomfort Kashmiris feel is about which laws self-rule must be under, and Hurriyat rejects a secular constitution.

Hurriyat deceives the world by using a universal word, azadi, to push a narrow, religious demand. Kashmiris have no confusion about what azadi means: It means Shariah. Friday holidays, amputating thieves&#8217; hands, abolishing interest, prohibiting alcohol (and kite-flying), stoning adulterers, lynching apostates and all the rest of it that comprises the ideal Sunni state.

Also Read Aakar&#8217;s previous Lounge columns

Not one Shia gang terrorizes India; terrorism on the subcontinent is a Sunni monopoly.

There is a token Shia among the Hurriyat&#8217;s bearded warriors, but it is essentially a Sunni group pursuing Sunni Shariah. Its most important figure is Umar Farooq. He&#8217;s called mirwaiz, meaning head of preachers (waiz), but he inherited his title at 17 and actually is no Islamic scholar. He is English-educated, but his base is Srinagar&#8217;s sullen neighbourhood of Maisuma, at the front of the stone-pelting. His following is conservative and, since he has little scholarship, he is unable to bend his constituents to his view.

Hurriyat&#8217;s modernists are led by Sopore&#8217;s 80-year-old Ali Geelani of Jamaat-e-Islami. Jamaat was founded in 1941 by a brilliant man from Maharashtra called Maududi, who invented the structure of the modern Islamic state along the lines of a Communist one. Maududi opposed Jinnah&#8217;s tribal raid in Kashmir, which led to the Line of Control, saying jihad could only be prosecuted formally by a Muslim state, and not informally by militias. This wisdom was discarded later, and Hizb al-Mujahideen, starring Syed Salahuddin of cap and beard fame, is a Jamaat unit. Maududi was ecumenical, meaning that he unified the four Sunni groups of thought. He always excluded Shias, as heretics.

The Kashmiri separatist movement is actually inseparable from Sunni fundamentalism. Those on the Hurriyat&#8217;s fringes who say they are Gandhians, like Yasin Malik, are carried along by the others in the group so long as the immediate task of resisting India is in common. But the Hurriyat and its aims are ultimately poisonous, even for Muslims.

The Hurriyat Conference&#8217;s idea of freedom unfolds from a religious instinct, not a secular sentiment. This instinct is sectarian, and all the pro-azadi groups are Shia-killers. In promoting their hatred, the groups plead for the support of other Muslims by leaning on the name of the Prophet Muhammad.

Hafiz is a title and means memorizer of the Quran. Mohammed Saeed&#8217;s Lashkar Tayyaba means army of Tyeb (&#8220;the good&#8221, one of the Prophet&#8217;s names. This is incorrectly spelled and pronounced by our journalists as &#8220;Taiba&#8221; or &#8220;Toiba&#8221;, but Muslims can place the name. Lashkar rejects all law from sources other than the recorded sayings and actions of Muhammad. This is called being Wahhabi, and Wahhabis detest the Shia.

Jaish Muhammad (Muhammad&#8217;s army) was founded in a Karachi mosque, and it is linked to the Shia-killing Sipah Sahaba (Army of Muhammad&#8217;s First Followers) in Pakistan&#8217;s Seraiki-speaking southern Punjab. The group follows a narrow, anti-Shia doctrine developed in Deoband.

Decades of non-interference by the Pakistani state in the business of Kashmiri separatism has led to a loss of internal sovereignty in Pakistan. The state is no longer able to convince its citizens that it should act against these groups. Though their own Shia are regularly butchered, a poll shows that a quarter of Pakistanis think Lashkar Tayyaba does good work. We think Indian Muslims are different from Pakistanis and less susceptible to fanaticism. It is interesting that within Pakistan, the only group openly and violently opposed to Taliban and terrorism are UP and Bihar migrants who form Karachi&#8217;s secular Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) party.

So what do the separatist groups want? It is wrong to see them as being only terrorist groups. They operate in an intellectual framework, and there is a higher idea that drives the violence. This is a perfect state with an executive who is pious, male and Sunni. Such a state, where all is done according to the book, will get God to shower his blessings on the citizens, who will all be Sunnis.

There are three types of Sunnis in Kashmir. Unionists, separatists, and neutrals. Unionists, like Omar Abdullah, are secular and likely to be repelled by separatism because they have seen the damage caused by political Islam in Pakistan. They might not be in love with Indians, but they see the beauty of the Indian Constitution. Neutrals, like Mehbooba Mufti, are pragmatic and will accept the Indian Constitution when in power, though they show defiance when out of it. This is fine, because they respond to a Muslim constituency that is uncertain, but isn&#8217;t totally alienated. The longer these two groups participate in democracy in Kashmir, the weaker the separatists become. The current violence is a result of this. Given their boycott of politics, the Hurriyat must rally its base by urging them to violence and most of it happens in Maisuma and Sopore. The violence should also clarify the problem in the minds of neutrals: If Kashmiri rule does not solve the azadi problem, what will?

India&#8217;s liberals are defensive when debating Kashmir because of our unfulfilled promise on plebiscite. But they shouldn&#8217;t be. There is really no option to secular democracy, whether one chooses it through a plebiscite or whether it is imposed. It is a universal idea and there is no second form of government in any culture or religion that works. The Islamic state is utopian and it never arrives. Since it is driven by belief, however, the search becomes quite desperate.

India has a constitution; Pakistan has editions. These are the various Pakistani constitutions: 1935 (secular), 1956 (federal), 1962 (dictatorial), 1973 (parliamentary), 1979 (Islamic), 1999 (presidential), 2008 (parliamentary). Why do they keep changing and searching? Muslims keep trying to hammer in Islamic bits into a set of laws that is actually quite complete. This is the Government of India Act of 1935, gifted to us by the British.

Kashmiris have it, and perhaps at some point they will learn to appreciate its beauty.


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## Areesh

First it was only muslim population. Now it is only Sunni population. Than it would be only bareilvi, only deobandi and only ahle hadees population.

Come one Bharatis how low you can go.

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## Patriot

Now that they cant blame protesters as terrorists they are running out of ideas hence coming with this crap.


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## EjazR

Areesh said:


> First it was only muslim population. Now it is only Sunni population. Than it would be only bareilvi, only deobandi and only ahle hadees population.
> 
> Come one Bharatis how low you can go.



I dont' agree with the article completely. But the reality is that only the Valley population wants indepedance.

There is muslim majority regions in Jammy like Poonch and Rajouri(mostly sunni Gujjars) that are find with being with India. Similarly Kargil which is 80&#37; muslims (mostly shia) actually helped Indian Army fight off Pakistani invaders in 1999. 

The valley which comprises a little less than 50% of the state and 30% of the population of the entire historical J&K state is what has a strong opinion on independance, but ofcourse they want the entire state to become independant, not just the valley as that would not be viable in any shape or form.

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## Areesh

EjazR said:


> I dont' agree with the article completely. But the reality is that only the Valley population wants indepedance.
> 
> There is muslim majority regions in Jammy like Poonch and Rajouri(mostly sunni Gujjars) that are find with being with India. Similarly Kargil which is 80% muslims (mostly shia) actually helped Indian Army fight off Pakistani invaders in 1999.
> 
> The valley which comprises a little less than 50% of the state and 30% of the population of the entire historical J&K state is what has a strong opinion on independance, but ofcourse they want the entire state to become independant, not just the valley as that would not be viable in any shape or form.



It is ridiculous to comment whether Sunni want independence or shia don't want independence. The fact is the muslim population in majority don't accept indian occupation of their land want freedom. Isn't Allama Abbas Ansari a shia and senior leader of Hurriat. It is very easy to make such claims that they support us or they don't support. The fact remains the same that Indian occupation of Kashmir is illegitimate.

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## Leviza

EjazR said:


> I dont' agree with the article completely. But the reality is that only the Valley population wants indepedance.
> 
> There is muslim majority regions in Jammy like Poonch and Rajouri(mostly sunni Gujjars) that are find with being with India. Similarly Kargil which is 80% muslims (mostly shia) actually helped Indian Army fight off Pakistani invaders in 1999.
> 
> The valley which comprises a little less than 50% of the state and 30% of the population of the entire historical J&K state is what has a strong opinion on independance, but ofcourse they want the entire state to become independant, not just the valley as that would not be viable in any shape or form.



Well truth is india is not good in Divide and Rule game 

Muslims of Kashmir need freedom and thats what will happen soon.its on UNO table as disputed land.... stay tuned

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## civfanatic

The article is so much flawed logicaly that it does not deserve an logical critique . However there are some elementary facts that aauthor gets wrong which nbetray his lack of knowledge about kashmir . He says that Maisuma is stronghold of mirwaiz while it is the stronghold of Yasin Malik . Mirwaiz has bulk of his supporters from downtown srinagar . At another point he mentions most protests bieng limited to maisuma and sopore which is not correct .The protests are spread over whole length and breadth of Kashmir valley and are especialy strong in urban areas which include sopore and maisuma . 
Infact when someone starts writing about sopore as if it is next Kandhar I began to suspect the motives or knowledge of author . Sopore definitely is pro-freedom stronghold but so are other urban areas of Kashhmir . Though I love when Indian writes began to rant on sopore bieng an islamist hub (My family comes from sopore ) but the fact is that in overall scheme of things sopore is not most important town either demographicaly or politicaly , It is fourth largest town in kashmir after Srinagar ,Barramula and Islamabad(Anantnag) . But I think known pro pakistan  proclivities of sopore do cuase much takleef in India

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## EjazR

Read what I said: *Valley muslims* 

I didnt say shia or sunnis. And that is as accurate as it is.

Ofcourse you have pro-India section in the valley, mainly in the rural areas. But the urban valley has predominant independance sentiment, not pro-Pakistan but independance.

All the news and protests that you have been hearing about are all in the valley. There are no shutdowns or curfews in Kargil orJammu regions where muslims are in majority. These are facts.

That is were the pro-independance movement has failed. It has not support even on the Pakistani side let alone in the Indian side. So it is high time to those who honestly want to solve the issue to think an independant valley will be aviable option. Particularly between Pakistan, China and India.

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## civfanatic

*27 AUG 2010 Syed Ali Shah Geelani Addresses People at Srinagar*


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## civfanatic




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## RollingStones

Paladin said:


> Your signature suits your personality perfectly, take a cue from it. Bash your head against the keyboard and repeat until unconscious.
> 
> Back on topic:
> 
> Same can be said for articles mentioning India in a negative spotlight.
> 
> 
> No, it's crap because it's crap... 75,000 rounds of ammo... Spare me, please!
> 
> 
> and by posting that statement your exhibiting the epitome of maturity, right? Listen to yourself!
> 
> 
> So now your Judge, Jury and Executioner?
> 
> 
> 
> That's funny ever since i have been visiting these forums all i see here is Indian trolls trying to undermine Pakistan and strut around in a shameless display of self glorification.
> 
> 
> 
> Same can be said to you regarding IOK... Now take a chill pill and do consider what i said about the keyboard meeting your face, a few hard blows to your cranium may get those synapses sparking again.



Paladin..nevertheless NY Times is the paper on record for Americans. It greatly influences American foreign policy and defense decision making and policies. America, for all its troubles, still spends $500B on defense and foreign aid. And that gives it enormous clout, still. If America starts making noises about Gilgit, Pakistani and Chinese rulers will have to listen. So, I wouldnt dismiss a NY Times article just like that. Several correspondents of NY Times go on to become advisors in the government. Learn how governments and decision making works in a mature manner before dissing things. Pakistan is a broke state from a financial perspective. American has great influence in Pakistan still, whether you like it or not. If you want to be independent of world powers, you need to build yourself into a strong independent country where the rule of law flourishes, there is equal opportunity for people, and governance is for the people and by the people. Make Pakistan a great global destination where people are truly empowered and you'll find yourself in a strong position. Keep undermining pillars of your country and shut eyes to revealing world opinions, you'll find yourself as a vassal state manipulated by anyone who can get a foothold there for years to come.

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## somebozo

Ridiculos article as best. The author has never read anything about history of Pakistan, India and Kashmir. Bringing in MQM into this conflict?? Ohh for god sake!! MQM is another sepratist party, an Indian agent and legacy of terror across whole Pakistan. The way he sums MQM has party of Indian emmigrants from UP and Bihar pretty much exposses who is funding his daily rice and curry (alternative to authentic bread and butter)


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## GUNNER

*Vale of tears*

*In Kashmir freedom is much farther than a stones-throw away *

Aug 26th 2010 

OWAIS hardly looks like a serious danger to the security of India. Slender and frail, he says he is 17 but seems younger as he basks shyly in the praise of the men gathered in a garden in Srinagar, summer capital of Indian-ruled Kashmir. But he is proud to show off the scars and stitch-marks that cover his belly. He has just emerged from hospital, lucky to be alive. He took a bullet in an anti-Indian protest on August 2nd in Kupwara, some 90km (56 miles) away. His uncle died that day, one of more than 60 people, mostly young, killed in a wave of unrest that began on June 11th. 

Owais and those like him have presented the Indian government with a new and perhaps insoluble Kashmir crisis.

They are self-proclaimed stone-pelters, named after their weapon of choice. Well-organisedon Facebook, to a large extentthe pelters emerge at short notice to throw stones at police stations and other targets, and get shot at. In response to their protests much of the Kashmir valley that surrounds Srinagar has been shut downboth by hartals, or strikes, called by separatist leaders, and by government-imposed curfews. 

On most days, Srinagar is a ghost town of shuttered shops and empty streets. Paramilitaries point their rifles out from bunkers or lounge on street corners, idly tapping their lathis (heavy batons) on their padded legs. On the one or two designated shopping days each week, the traffic is gridlocked.

Setting the hartal calendar is Syed Ali Shah Geelani, an 81-year-old separatist leader. It is in his garden that Owais waits. When the old man emerges, he kisses the boy on both cheeks and the forehead, hugs him tight, and poses for a photograph with him. Mr Geelani seems a strange icon for a movement of teen-aged Facebookers. 

Few share his Islamist pro-Pakistan ideology. And many still seem to be ignoring his edict to give up throwing stones and stick to peaceful protest. But, unlike other political leaders, Mr Geelani has never wavered in his refusal to compromise with Indian rule. Sheer, cussed consistency has earned him a pivotal role. So have Indias past tactics to divide its opponents. More moderate separatists, who have engaged in dialogue with India, have had nothing to show for it, and ended discredited and compromised. This seems less clever than it did at the time. Now Mr Geelani ignores a call for talks from Indias prime minister, Manmohan Singh.

This is the third successive summer of big anti-Indian protests. For India, they have marred a victory of sorts. The two-decade-long insurgency, backed by Pakistan, which has never renounced its claim to all of Kashmir, is almost defeated. Infiltration across the line of control dividing Indian and Pakistani bits of Kashmir, has fallen. 

The conflict is killing far fewer, though still 375 last year by one count, out of more than 40,000 killed since 1989 by the armys reckoning, and 100,000 by the separatists. When turnout in an election for the state government in 2008 reached an unprecedented 60%, many Indians misread this as belated Kashmiri acquiescence in Indian rule.

Boys like Owais neither trained in camps in Pakistan, nor are they stooges of the militants and spy agencies that have fuelled the war. They have grown up knowing nothing but insurgency. They may fear the insurgents and dislike their methods. But they sympathise with their goal. They see Indian troops in Kashmir as an often brutal occupying force. Why does Owais protest? We are oppressed. What will it achieve? Azaadi! (Freedom!).

That is not on the cards, even if it were clear what it meant. Of the five parts of the former princely state of Jammu & Kashmir, divided by the first India-Pakistan war in 1947-48, two are in Pakistan (and a bit of one was ceded to China by Pakistanillegitimately, says India). 

Of the three bits in India, Hindu-majority parts of Jammu, along with Ladakh, with many Buddhists, would, given a choice, probably stay in India. Only the Muslim-dominated Kashmir valley and adjacent parts of Jammu seem hellbent on secession. In the valley, politicians dream of an independent country linked to old Central Asian trading routes, looking anywhere but south over the mountains to Delhi. 

Dream on. India has responded to the unrest in time-worn fashion: with extra troops, live bullets, the detention of separatist leaders who might lead big processions and, now, search-and-cordon operations to lock up suspected stone-pelters. Mr Geelani says protests will continue until India accepts the disputed status of Kashmir. India will never do that: the official line remains that Jammu & Kashmir, its only Muslim-majority state, is integral to its national identity: the idea of India. It will not tolerate the circulation of maps (in most cases) that show Pakistan-controlled Kashmir as, well, Pakistan-controlled.


*Finding Indias collective conscience* 

*So, it is most likely that these protests will end as so many before them did: with India making no more than token concessions. Fed up with the disruption, worried about keeping children out of school, and appalled at the loss of so many young lives, Kashmiris will sooner or later have to go back to life as usual, nursing their anger to take it out another day.*

Eventually, however, India may have to contemplate a political solution, for two reasons. One is that small cracks are already appearing in the national consensus behind its repressive policies. So long as it was fighting Pakistan, even liberal Indian opinion seemed ready to tolerate a heavy hand in Kashmir. 

Less so now that its troops are killing children armed only with stones. Secondly, without change, the cycle of protests will resume. 

And at some point they will become so big that they can only be contained by killing more of its citizens than a democracy can stand. Owais and his classmates may be misguided, but they fear nothing, and martyrdom least of all.


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## Devil Soul

Facebook, YouTube used as weapons in Kashmir fight
By AIJAZ HUSSAIN, Associated Press Writer  Fri Aug 27, 6:36 am ET
SRINAGAR, India  Before hitting the streets, Ahmed reaches for his two essential protest tools: a scarf to mask his face and a cell phone camera to show the world what is happening.
The 23-year-old, who posts videos to YouTube under names such as "oppressedkashimir1," is part of a wave of Web-savvy protesters in Indian-controlled Kashmir who have begun using social networking to publicize their fight and keep fellow demonstrators energized and focused.
"(I am) an anonymous soldier of Kashmir's resistance movement, using Facebook and YouTube to fight India," Ahmed said, showing off his most recent work, a montage of protest videos and photos set to London-based Sami Yousuf's popular song, "Try Not to Cry Little One." Like other protesters, he declined to give his full name for fear of arrest.
The last three months have seen an upsurge in violent protests against Indian rule in Kashmir, a region divided between India and Pakistan and claimed by both.
The protesters, mostly youths wearing jeans and hooded shirts, call themselves "sangbazan," or the stone pelters. They have covered Srinagar and other major Kashmiri towns with pro-independence graffiti and mounted fierce stone barrages against security forces, sometimes surrounding armored vehicles and throwing stones inside through the firing slats.
At least 64 people, mostly teenage boys and young men in their 20s, have been killed. Prabhakar Tripathi, a spokesman for the paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force, said it's difficult to respond to such attacks. "We use bullets in self-defense as a last resort," he said.
With student discussion groups banned and thousands of security operatives believed to be snooping on protesters, the youth of Kashmir are using the Internet as a virtual meeting place.
Social networking sites, though presumably under Indian surveillance, have proven to be more effective than any previous form of political communication in Kashmir, said Shuddabrata Sengupta, a New Delhi-based writer who follows new media issues in India.
"The struggle on the streets and in the corners of cyberspace have a mutually complementary nature," he said.
The stone pelters use Facebook to debate the weekly calendar of protests, discuss ways to hold Kashmiri leaders accountable and trade daily news updates, some of questionable reliability.
One user sparked a debate about the role of Kashmiri intellectuals in the fight by posting a picture of the Palestinian-American literary theorist Edward Said symbolically throwing a stone near the Israel-Lebanon border. In Kashmir, many intellectuals do not openly identify with the struggle, though privately they may embrace it.
Another user, whose Facebook name is "Kale Kharab," a Kashmiri term for a hothead, recently posted methods to counter the effects of tear gas and administer first aid to a shooting victim.
"They're shaping the political discourse and raising the bar for pro-independence political groups in Kashmir and authorities in New Delhi," said Sheikh Showkat Hussain, a law professor at the University of Kashmir.
Marketing and information technology experts estimate at least 40,000 Kashmir residents are on Facebook. The page for "Bekaar Jamaath," or the Idle Group, amassed about 12,000 members in four months before being hacked, removed and re-established recently.
The posting of well-produced Kashmiri protest videos began more than two years ago with the expansion of Internet service in the remote Himalayan region and access to better cell phone technology.
One of the first videos combined images of women and children wailing at graveyards and the bodies of slain Kashmiris with a moving song written by Abdul Ahad Azad, an early 20th-century Kashmiri revolutionary poet. Two other videos were set to singer Chris de Burgh's "Revolution" and "Oh My Brave Hearts."
Now young Kashmiris are uploading video shot furtively from windows showing government forces damaging vehicles and property during curfews, when there are no journalists around.
"Because of this video evidence that cannot be denied, some people outside Kashmir have started believing the horrors we have been living under," said Rayees, a young protester who uploaded a clip to Facebook showing paramilitary forces hurling stones and smashing the windows of homes in a Srinagar neighborhood.
"There are aberrations," said Tripathi, the paramilitary spokesman. "The commanders in their areas of responsibility have been directed to listen to the public grievances and see if people are facing any problems."
Another video of intense stone throwing by protesters, set to the Everlast song "Stone in My Hand," has become a hit with the demonstrators and made its shadowy creator  known only as a computer engineer  a revered figure among them.
"He made it appear as if the song was composed for Kashmir," said Shabir, a college student and stone thrower. "He showed us how one can be more meaningful and imaginative and yet continue to be a stone pelter."


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## SparklingCrescent

self delete......................


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## Gucci

max wat will happen,govt will ban these sites there.


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## Bhairava

GUNNER said:


> *Vale of tears*
> 
> *In Kashmir freedom is much farther than a stones-throw away *
> 
> Aug 26th 2010
> 
> OWAIS hardly looks like a serious danger to the security of India. Slender and frail, he says he is 17 but seems younger as he basks shyly in the praise of the men gathered in a garden in Srinagar, summer capital of Indian-ruled Kashmir. But he is proud to show off the scars and stitch-marks that cover his belly. He has just emerged from hospital, lucky to be alive. He took a bullet in an anti-Indian protest on August 2nd in Kupwara, some 90km (56 miles) away. His uncle died that day, one of more than 60 people, mostly young, killed in a wave of unrest that began on June 11th.
> 
> Owais and those like him have presented the Indian government with a new and perhaps insoluble Kashmir crisis.
> 
> They are self-proclaimed stone-pelters, named after their weapon of choice. Well-organisedon Facebook, to a large extentthe pelters emerge at short notice to throw stones at police stations and other targets, and get shot at. In response to their protests much of the Kashmir valley that surrounds Srinagar has been shut downboth by hartals, or strikes, called by separatist leaders, and by government-imposed curfews.
> 
> On most days, Srinagar is a ghost town of shuttered shops and empty streets. Paramilitaries point their rifles out from bunkers or lounge on street corners, idly tapping their lathis (heavy batons) on their padded legs. On the one or two designated shopping days each week, the traffic is gridlocked.
> 
> Setting the hartal calendar is Syed Ali Shah Geelani, an 81-year-old separatist leader. It is in his garden that Owais waits. When the old man emerges, he kisses the boy on both cheeks and the forehead, hugs him tight, and poses for a photograph with him. Mr Geelani seems a strange icon for a movement of teen-aged Facebookers.
> 
> Few share his Islamist pro-Pakistan ideology. And many still seem to be ignoring his edict to give up throwing stones and stick to peaceful protest. But, unlike other political leaders, Mr Geelani has never wavered in his refusal to compromise with Indian rule. Sheer, cussed consistency has earned him a pivotal role. So have Indias past tactics to divide its opponents. More moderate separatists, who have engaged in dialogue with India, have had nothing to show for it, and ended discredited and compromised. This seems less clever than it did at the time. Now Mr Geelani ignores a call for talks from Indias prime minister, Manmohan Singh.
> 
> This is the third successive summer of big anti-Indian protests. For India, they have marred a victory of sorts. The two-decade-long insurgency, backed by Pakistan, which has never renounced its claim to all of Kashmir, is almost defeated. Infiltration across the line of control dividing Indian and Pakistani bits of Kashmir, has fallen.
> 
> The conflict is killing far fewer, though still 375 last year by one count, out of more than 40,000 killed since 1989 by the armys reckoning, and 100,000 by the separatists. When turnout in an election for the state government in 2008 reached an unprecedented 60%, many Indians misread this as belated Kashmiri acquiescence in Indian rule.
> 
> Boys like Owais neither trained in camps in Pakistan, nor are they stooges of the militants and spy agencies that have fuelled the war. They have grown up knowing nothing but insurgency. They may fear the insurgents and dislike their methods. But they sympathise with their goal. They see Indian troops in Kashmir as an often brutal occupying force. Why does Owais protest? We are oppressed. What will it achieve? Azaadi! (Freedom!).
> 
> That is not on the cards, even if it were clear what it meant. Of the five parts of the former princely state of Jammu & Kashmir, divided by the first India-Pakistan war in 1947-48, two are in Pakistan (and a bit of one was ceded to China by Pakistanillegitimately, says India).
> 
> Of the three bits in India, Hindu-majority parts of Jammu, along with Ladakh, with many Buddhists, would, given a choice, probably stay in India. Only the Muslim-dominated Kashmir valley and adjacent parts of Jammu seem hellbent on secession. In the valley, politicians dream of an independent country linked to old Central Asian trading routes, looking anywhere but south over the mountains to Delhi.
> 
> Dream on. India has responded to the unrest in time-worn fashion: with extra troops, live bullets, the detention of separatist leaders who might lead big processions and, now, search-and-cordon operations to lock up suspected stone-pelters. Mr Geelani says protests will continue until India accepts the disputed status of Kashmir. India will never do that: the official line remains that Jammu & Kashmir, its only Muslim-majority state, is integral to its national identity: the idea of India. It will not tolerate the circulation of maps (in most cases) that show Pakistan-controlled Kashmir as, well, Pakistan-controlled.
> 
> 
> *Finding Indias collective conscience*
> 
> *So, it is most likely that these protests will end as so many before them did: with India making no more than token concessions. Fed up with the disruption, worried about keeping children out of school, and appalled at the loss of so many young lives, Kashmiris will sooner or later have to go back to life as usual, nursing their anger to take it out another day.*
> 
> Eventually, however, India may have to contemplate a political solution, for two reasons. One is that small cracks are already appearing in the national consensus behind its repressive policies. So long as it was fighting Pakistan, even liberal Indian opinion seemed ready to tolerate a heavy hand in Kashmir.
> 
> Less so now that its troops are killing children armed only with stones. Secondly, without change, the cycle of protests will resume.
> 
> And at some point they will become so big that they can only be contained by killing more of its citizens than a democracy can stand. Owais and his classmates may be misguided, but they fear nothing, and martyrdom least of all.



Ahhh another article glorifying the paid stone pelters,rioters and arsonists.

As for India's collective conscience - this struggle based on a flawed religious concept was/is/will never be accepted nor will find favour with anybody.

And the bolded parts everything is true except for the "loss of young lives" part.

Is the Indian sec forces going home to home,dragging out the boys and killing them.??

These arsonists( so called innocent youths) are on the streets - destroying and burning anything and everything and they are getting what they deserve.Period.


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## EjazR

^^^^
Looks like you have no idea of history. Do you know from Muhammed Ali Jinnah came?
The reality is that the forefathers ofthe Muhajirs played a prominent role in establishing Pakistan. If you don't know the history, then it is better to not make comments liek these.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*No talks until India admits Kashmir a disputed territory ​*
Written by KMS 
Friday, 27 August 2010 19:46 







Srinagar, August 27, 2010: APHC(G) Chairman, Syed Ali Gilani has said that holding talks with India will be a futile exercise until it accepts the disputed nature of Jammu and Kashmir, starts demilitarisation, revokes black laws and releases all Kashmiri political prisoners without any condition.

Syed Ali Gilani, who was addressing a public gathering at Gulshanabad in Hyderpora said, We were never against talks. But when, on the one hand, there are talks about talks and, on the other, Kashmir is declared as an integral part, there remains nothing meaningful about the dialogue. Holding of talks will be a futile exercise until India gives up its stubbornness, proclaims Kashmir as a dispute, starts the process of demilitarisation, revokes all the draconian laws and releases all the detainees unconditionally. 


Syed Ali Gilani condemned the torturing to death of an innocent student, Umar Qayoom by Indian forces. He said that cruel and callous attitude of police towards people would not be tolerated. He said that Kashmiris liberation struggle was absolutely peaceful and indigenous. Those protesting on roads do not carry any gun, grenade or other weapon. They are not being paid by anyone. The Indian agencies are using underhand tactics to malign our movement, he said.

Surprised over the closure of Srinagar Airport from September 1, Syed Ali Gilani termed it torture to Kashmiris. It can be tactic to keep the prevailing grim situation away from the view of outside world, he added.

Syed Ali Gilani maintained that all the minorities including Sikhs are safe in Kashmir. He appealed to the Muslims to assure the minorities in their respective localities that they were safe and secure.

APHC(M) chairman, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq demanded India to withdraw its troops from Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir. He also urged India to stop state terrorism in the occupied territory and take steps to settle the Kashmir dispute by holding talks with Pakistan and genuine Kashmiri leadership.

Syed Ali Gilani led a big protest in Hyderpora and while addressing a gathering on the occasion, pointed out that the people of Jammu & Kashmir had been rendering sacrifices to secure their inalienable right of self-determination and not for perks and privileges.

Other APHC leaders, Agha Syed Hassan Al-Moosvi, addressing protesters in Badgam and Ghulam Ahmed Mir in Thanamandi emphasised that India would not be able to subdue Kashmiris movement through force. Anti-India demonstrations were also staged at Lal Chowk, Soura, Buchpora and Residency Road in Srinagar and in Islamabad, Bijbehara, Sangam, Pulwama, Tral and other towns. Liberation leaders addressing the demonstrators urged India to show seriousness in resolving the dispute in accordance with the Kashmiris aspirations.

Illegally detained senior APHC leader, Shabbir Ahmad Shah talking to mediamen at a hospital in Jammu said that the present surge in the liberation struggle had unnerved Indian authorities, who were engaged in a genocidal spree in the occupied territory. The authorities had brought him there for medical check-up.


The Executive Director of Kashmir Centre London, Professor Nazir Ahmad Shawl, in a statement in Islamabad said that resolution of the Kashmir dispute was vital to the peace and stability in South Asia. Kashmiri intellectual and lecturer in Delhi University, Syed Abdur Rehman Gilani in a media interview in Bangalore said that the people of Jammu and Kashmir should be given an opportunity to decide their future.

On the other hand, the 43rd death anniversary of prominent Kashmiri liberation leader and religious scholar, Mirwaiz Muhammad Yousaf Shah will be observed, tomorrow, and special functions will be held on the occasion on both sides of the Line of Control.

The Executive Director of Kashmir Centre London, Professor Nazir Ahmad Shawl, has said that resolution of the Kashmir dispute is vital to the peace and stability in South Asia. Professor Nazir Ahmad Shawl said that the Kashmir is an internationally recognized dispute. The resolution of the lingering dispute in accordance with the aspirations of Kashmiri people will restore a new era in the inter-state relations in South Asia, he added.

He said that India should concede the existing ground realities and respond to the categorical message of the ongoing movement in the occupied territory. The dispute should be resolved according to the internationally supervised referendum as promised by the United Nations Security Council, he maintained.

In Srinagar, at least 40 persons were injured when Indian forces resorted to brute force in Soura area of Srinagar to disperse the demonstrators protesting against the civilian killings and crackdown on youth.

Doctors at the Soura Medical Institute told mediamen that the Institute received 38 persons with pellet injuries. They said that one of the inured, identified as Khalid, 20, had received multiple pellet injuries in abdomen and chest. Another injured person from Rambagh was admitted in the Institute.

The protesters, mainly young boys, demanded the release of the arrested youth. The Indian forces used batons, fired teargas shells and rubber bullets to disperse them. A youth namely Nayeem Ahmad Paul was hit by a rubber bullet and shifted to a hospital.


In Rainawari, protests broke out at Naidyar after a youth was picked up by Indian forces. After the incident, people took to the streets and staged protests demanding his release. The Indian forces used brute force to disperse the protesters. The locals said that the occupation forces damaged private properties and smashed the windowpanes of residential houses in Dalkawpora, Naidyar and Chowdhary Bagh localities.

People also held anti-India demonstrations in Umarabad, Zainakote, Natipora, Rambagh, Wanbal, Sopore, Baramulla and Palhalan, Langate, Kralgund, Kralpora, Trehgam, Shopian, Bijbehara, Islamabad, Pulwama and Kulgam areas. Hundreds of people including women and children in Khaipora area of Tangmarg staged demonstrations against the brutal murder of a teenage girl, Sameera Bhat, who went missing last Monday and later her body with countless injury marks was recovered from an isolated field.

On the other hand, the Indian forces thrashed the newspaper hawkers in Soura, Gulab Bagh and Pandach areas of Srinagar and seized the copies of two local dailies Greater Kashmir and Kashmir Uzma on Thursday. The hawkers received multiple injuries and were taken to hospital for treatment.

*Meanwhile, China has refused visa to a serving Indian army general, B. S. Jaswal, on the ground that he is the incharge of the Indian forces in Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir. China has been describing Jammu and Kashmir as a disputed territory*

No talks until India admits Kashmir a disputed territory

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## Trac

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *No talks until India admits Kashmir a disputed territory
> *





Any buddy care about him


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## GentlemanObserver

Trac said:


> Any buddy care about him



Same can be said for this guy:


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## Trac

Paladin said:


> Same can be said for this guy:



Well he is elected by people of J&K as their CM several times
So this person is their supreme for sure.

He not like PM of P O K who is puppet of Islamabad nothing else


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## NoEscape

Let China & PAKIstan instigate India thousand times over Kashmir, India is not going to budge from it's stand. Just because Kashmir is a Muslim majority state doesn't merit for independence or Plebiscite. India is a secular country where we have Christian dominated, Sikh dominated as well as Muslim dominate other states also. Kashmir is an integral part of India and it will. Let Hurriyats, Pakistans, Chinas, USs or whoever A$$ say millions of words on Kashmir, care Two Hoots to them.

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## GentlemanObserver

Trac said:


> Well he is elected by people of J&K as their CM several times
> So this person is their supreme for sure.
> 
> He not like PM of P O K who is puppet of Islamabad nothing else



LOL... Sorry my friend the facts speak differently and 

FYI:
Azad Jammu & Kashmir


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## brahmastra

Paladin said:


> LOL... Sorry my friend the facts speak differently and
> 
> FYI:
> Azad Jammu & Kashmir



lol...
every one knows how 'azad' is AJK.
btw, http://www.ajk.gov.*pk*/ says all.

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## storm seeker

Trac said:


> Well he is elected by people of J&K as their CM several times
> So this person is their supreme for sure.
> 
> He not like PM of P O K who is puppet of Islamabad nothing else



mujhe jhooot se nafrat hai !
u ppl are playing a'"never never " game .no place for liers in here


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## GentlemanObserver

brahmastra said:


> lol...
> every one knows how 'azad' is AJK.
> btw, http://www.ajk.gov.*pk*/ says all.



Is that the best you can do... 
The Official Website of Jammu and Kashmir Government, India

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## airuah

Paladin said:


> LOL... Sorry my friend the facts speak differently and
> 
> FYI:
> Azad Jammu & Kashmir



azad???how many pakistani parties are there ?
why is azad pakistan a no go zone for journalists?
does azad kashmir-has a foreign minister who discusses his country's economy or makes economy related visits outside his territory


and about the president od azad kashmir.....how is he a kashmiri when he was born in gujrat


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## GentlemanObserver

storm seeker said:


> mujhe jhooot se nafrat hai !
> u ppl are playing a'"never never " game .no place for liers in here



It's okay.. They are entitled to their opinion. Just as long as they don't expect us to swallow this drivel.


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## storm seeker

c'mon ppl wats the guilty of admitting AK as a part of pakistan . its azad with us . btw they are not crying for freedom .


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## do_more

Who cares... We don't want to talk with him. Let him talk himself.


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## GentlemanObserver

airuah said:


> azad???how many pakistani parties are there ?
> why is azad pakistan a no go zone for journalists?
> does azad kashmir-has a foreign minister who discusses his country's economy or makes economy related visits outside his territory
> 
> 
> and about the president od azad kashmir.....how is he a kashmiri when he was born in gujrat



LOL Meri Jan ap kis dunya me hoon?



> azad???how many pakistani parties are there ?




All Jammu and Kashmir Muslim Conference
The Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF)



> why is azad pakistan a no go zone for journalists?



LOL. Get your facts right mate, anyone can visit or report on AJK
http://www.islamgarh.net/News/Urdu_News/islamgarhnews.html



> does azad kashmir-has a foreign minister who discusses his country's economy or makes economy related visits outside his territory



Overseas Kashmiris Cell
http://www.pmajk.gov.pk/Ok.asp

They have their own government with it's on information and finance ministry and overseas kashmiri cell.

Departments

Investment Opportunities

Finance Department


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## AbuSalam

do_more said:


> Who cares... We don't want to talk with him. Let him talk himself.



no talks means statuesque ? Adv INDIA


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## Masterchief

gilani i spit on him, no one here cares about him. he is just another publicity hungry man who play with peoples thoughts


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## storm seeker

^ MIND UR LANGUAGE!!!!!
ur face is better worth to be spat on .
u are not allowed to slurp against him.


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## Masterchief

@storm seeker : i am free to voice my opinions you are praising gilani only because he is ant indian, tell me what has he done till now except blabbering , has he helped people in time of their need, he just raise slogans and does nothing. furthermore you are not the one to decide about whom i should talk or not so better stop try to patronise me

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## NoEscape

Boys..boys.. just relax.
For Pakistanis, Gilani is the next President of Pakistan as they are totally smitten by his Oratory skills & Leadership qualities. Anyway, Zardari is a total failure & they are looking for a suitable replacement.


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## GentlemanObserver

NoEscape said:


> Boys..boys.. just relax.
> For Pakistanis, Gilani is the next President of Pakistan as they are totally smitten by his Oratory skills & Leadership qualities. Anyway, Zardari is a total failure & they are looking for a suitable replacement.









Ring any bells?


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## Vikram Morya

who the hell in India want to talk to Pokistan on kashmir ...we appreciate pokistan from pulling leg from the boring talks.
We are not gaining anything from this f*c*ing talks


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## NoEscape

Paladin said:


> Ring any bells?



Well, Farookh Abdullah is a Parliamentarian, *elected by the people of Srinagar (Kashmir) constituency.*, MP of 15th Lok Sabha, Affiliated to Jammu & Kashmir National Conference.

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## brahmastra

Paladin said:


> Is that the best you can do...
> The Official Website of Jammu and Kashmir Government, India



lol...
JK is internal part of India and also Indian constitution says it unlike yours conceder it not part of pakistan.
write any other state instead of 'jamukashmir' like gujarat,maharastra etc and you will see their state government websites.


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## Desi Sher

Paladin said:


> Same can be said for this guy:



He is just a Minister of MNRE(Ministry of New and Renewable Energy) And Ex an CM...His Son Omar Abdullah Is the One to be really heard...


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## prototype

well here i also think the same,why having futile talks with Pakistan when J@K is an integral territory,we dont need to waste our time,the same i also want to say abt Pakistan,dont waste ur time,instead of dreaming to acquire J@k try to effectively run ur nation


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## DV RULES

NoEscape said:


> Let China & PAKIstan instigate India thousand times over Kashmir, India is not going to budge from it's stand. Just because Kashmir is a Muslim majority state doesn't merit for independence or Plebiscite. India is a secular country where we have Christian dominated, Sikh dominated as well as Muslim dominate other states also. Kashmir is an integral part of India and it will. Let Hurriyats, Pakistans, Chinas, USs or whoever A$$ say millions of words on Kashmir, care Two Hoots to them.






India never was secular state, is not and will not be because there is much difference between secularism and inhuman, cruel & rubbish behaviour of hindu extremists organizations on minorities (Christian, Muslim & Sikh etc).

Babri mosque, Golden temple, irrespective actions on Christian community and Kashmir Bloodshed cant proof India AS SECULAR STATE. 

So try to understand that you are not secular. This is proved truth.

WE HAVE NOT TO ADD MORE THAT KASHMIR IS NOT INDIAN TERRITORY BECAUSE YOU AGREE OR NOT ANYWAY 
*KASHMIR IS AN ESSENTIAL PART OF PAKISTAN AND THERE IS NO MORE TO SAY. 
*


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## GentlemanObserver

brahmastra said:


> lol...
> JK is internal part of India and also Indian constitution says it unlike yours conceder it not part of pakistan.
> write any other state instead of 'jamukashmir' like gujarat,maharastra etc and you will see their state government websites.



 so much fail in one post!


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## Gene

no need to talk to them..
apply chinese policy
left the situation as it is,let pass another decade.india is growing both militarily & economically,after a decade the economic & military might will speak themselves.


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## prototype

DV RULES said:


> India never was secular state, is not and will not be because there is much difference between secularism and inhuman, cruel & rubbish behaviour of hindu extremists organizations on minorities (Christian, Muslim & Sikh etc).
> 
> Babri mosque, Golden temple, irrespective actions on Christian community and Kashmir Bloodshed cant proof India AS SECULAR STATE.
> 
> So try to understand that you are not secular. This is proved truth.
> 
> WE HAVE NOT TO ADD MORE THAT KASHMIR IS NOT INDIAN TERRITORY BECAUSE YOU AGREE OR NOT ANYWAY
> *KASHMIR IS AN ESSENTIAL PART OF PAKISTAN AND THERE IS NO MORE TO SAY.
> *



the bottom line yes,we we r not secular,we r a minority suppression nation,we r doing the same in Kashmir also,but the point is what can u do in it,nothing

we said we will not allow any 3rd party to interfere and look the so called super power of the world,U.S,U.k,Europe nobody is even willing to enter the theater against Indian wish even after so much crying and babbling from Pakistan,go and get a life dude,u r reaching nowere


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## magg

Violence in Gilgit
Dawn Editorial
Saturday, 28 Aug, 2010

Some observers are of the view that the violence in Gilgit-Baltistan is simply a reflection of the ugly wave of sectarianism engulfing the rest of Pakistan. - File Photo.

Normal life in Gilgit has remained severely disturbed for the past few days due to an upsurge in Shia-Sunni violence. Rival groups traded heavy fire on Wednesday while some houses in the town were also torched. The arson and exchange of fire was reportedly sparked by a series of earlier targeted killings, giving the violence a sectarian hue.



News reports suggest that law-enforcement personnel arrived only after the groups had stopped trading fire. Some observers have said the killings were the result of a personal feud; however, in a country where ethnic and sectarian hatreds are never far from the surface, the slightest disagreement can be given a communal colour. What is disturbing is that the Gilgit-Baltistan chief minister has said some police officials were involved in fanning sectarianism; two policemen were among those taken into custody on Thursday in connection with the investigation of a murder case.

The Gilgit-Baltistan region is no stranger to sectarian turmoil. Though the area has experienced bouts of communal violence since the 1980s, the killing of Shia scholar Agha Ziauddin Rizvi in 2005 worsened the situation, with the last five years marked by periods of intermittent calm followed by spells of violence. Some observers are of the view that the violence in Gilgit-Baltistan is simply a reflection of the ugly wave of sectarianism engulfing the rest of Pakistan. While creating an atmosphere of sectarian harmony and tolerance might be a complicated, long-drawn-out exercise, what the Gilgit-Baltistan government must do is to ensure supremacy of the law and safeguard the lives and property of the citizens. Its efforts must be supplemented by the centre and the security apparatus. The government should take firm action against those who disturb the peace, while those functionaries of the state found involved in fanning hatred should be taken to task.

DAWN.COM | Editorial | Violence in Gilgit


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## GentlemanObserver

What is this sudden interest amongst our Indian members in Gilgit. I must say i am very intrigued by this, prior to this gilgit never had any substantial mention on here, every since this incident we have seen 6 or more thread open up with the words "Gilgit and Unrest"... Very interesting.


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## JanjaWeed

statusquo will work good for india. it did well in the past decade, will in the future too. you don't want to talk, fine!! sit in the corner & sulk! at least we can concentrate on our day job such as economic growth & the rest.


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## Areesh

EjazR said:


> ^^^^
> Looks like you have no idea of history. Do you know from Muhammed Ali Jinnah came?
> The reality is that the forefathers ofthe Muhajirs played a prominent role in establishing Pakistan. If you don't know the history, then it is better to not make comments liek these.



We know about our history dear. I am a so called Mohajir myself. My ancestors also migrated from India. But we don't accept the delusions sell in this article about the so called mohajirs and MQM presented in this BS article.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Bhairava

Paladin said:


> Is that the best you can do...
> The Official Website of Jammu and Kashmir Government, India



we always claim J&K to be an integral part of India,,so no surprise in that.

But you guys claim that Azad Kashmir is Azad right..?

*OT:*Who wants to talk to him BTW.?


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## Devil Soul

Areesh said:


> We know about our history dear. I am a so called Mohajir myself. My ancestors also migrated from India. But we don't accept the delusions sell in this article about the so called mohajirs and MQM presented in this BS article.



Very Well said bro...


----------



## Bhairava

Paladin said:


> LOL Meri Jan ap kis dunya me hoon?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All Jammu and Kashmir Muslim Conference
> The Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF)
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. Get your facts right mate, anyone can visit or report on AJK
> News at islamgarh mirpur Azad Kashmir. news of Kotli Azad Kashmir, News of Bhimber Azad Kashmir,
> 
> 
> 
> Overseas Kashmiris Cell
> http://www.pmajk.gov.pk/Ok.asp
> 
> They have their own government with it's on information and finance ministry and overseas kashmiri cell.
> 
> Departments
> 
> Investment Opportunities
> 
> Finance Department




Enuff said:



> "That as a President of Azad Jammu & Kashmir I will remain loyal to the country and to the cause of accession of the state of Jammu & Kashmir to Pakistan"



The oath of the President of "Azad" J&K.

BTW go through this if you have time:

http://kashmir.ahrchk.net/mainfile.php/articles/63/


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## r3alist

hindu's (as in the writer of the article) love talking about kashmir as if they understand the people and region

pakistanis have blood ties to kashmir

there is the difference.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## graphican

airuah said:


> azad???how many pakistani parties are there ?
> why is azad pakistan a no go zone for journalists?
> does azad kashmir-has a foreign minister who discusses his country's economy or makes economy related visits outside his territory
> 
> 
> and about the president od azad kashmir.....how is he a kashmiri when he was born in gujrat



You cannot show a blind man how a green color looks like, but the one who has eyes and still don't want to learn that is called blind at heart. If you fail to see what Kashmirs in India do at its Independence day and what they do in Pakistan on Pakistan's Independence day, you surely fall in the second category of blinds.


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## karan.1970

Hardline woman separatist leader Asiya Andrabi arrested in Srinagar - India - The Times of India

For these protests, I Hear the fat lady singing.. 
============================================
SRINAGAR: Hardline woman separatist leader Asiya Andrabi, believed to be one of the masterminds of the current unrest in the Kashmir Valley, was arrested from a hideout here on Saturday, police said. 

Andrabi was arrested from Zakura on the city outskirts, a police officer told IANS. 

The chief of the women's separatist outfit Dukhtaran-e-Millat, Andrabi was issuing shutdown calendars through emails to the media and was one of the brains behind the turmoil in the valley, police said. 

The 50-year-old Andrabi, a staunch votary of Jammu and Kashmir's merger with Pakistan, had been asking Kashmiris to observe shutdowns, close down businesses and schools and participate in protest demonstrations. 

She had been in hiding for the last three months.

============================================

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## indushek

Finally a breakthrough, these people have no other work than to foment unrest and instigate violence. What can be expected from paid agents.

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1


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## civfanatic

> *The pelters and the police. Thousands of stones later, the men in uniform may be on the same side with the boys in masks
> *
> BY TUSHA MITTAL IN SRINAGAR
> 
> 
> BY THE time you read this, the life and death of 22- year-old Bilal Ahmed Sheikh would have become a mere statistic: Civilian No. 63 killed by the security forces since 11 June &#8212; the day another boy, 17-year-old Tufail, breathed his last, sparking an intifada-like uprising in Kashmir.
> 
> Not a single police or paramilitary officer has been arrested for civilian deaths. FIRs against &#8220;unknown persons&#8221; have been registered, except for one case in Sopore against the CRPF for unprovoked firing. A commission of inquiry is looking into the first 17 deaths. The home minister has admitted, &#8220;At least a dozen killings may have been unprovoked.&#8221;
> 
> It has been more than 24 hours since Habibullah Tiblu was brought to SKIMS hospital with two bullets inside him, but the operation room is not yet available &#8212; it is already handling hundreds of injuries from stone, pellet gun, teargas shell and bullet. No compensation has been paid to injured civilians. Twenty-six men in SHMS hospital have just been told that they will never see again. Zubaid Khan, a Class 12 student from Khanyar, is one. He had just stepped out of his home when a stone hurled by the CRPF smashed into his eye.
> 
> So far, 800 policemen have been paid compensation of Rs. 5,000 each for injuries. &#8220;I fell down after a stone hit my head, and needed five stitches,&#8221; says an injured deputy superintendent of police. &#8220;Yet I instructed my men not to fire.&#8221;
> 
> According to Srinagar SP(South) Irshad Ahmed, more than 400 stone-pelters are currently in jail. Civil rights groups put that number at 1,500 in the entire district. Rafiqa Begum is holding back the sobs as she stares at piles of ******* apples. On 20 August, she says, her 16-year-old son Omar Saleem was picked up while selling fruits in Rambagh. &#8220;He left school so he could support the family. If they keep him in jail, we will be destroyed,&#8221; she says.
> 
> There is no way yet to verify exactly how many of those arrested have been released or booked under the Public Safety Act (PSA) &#8212; and that is part of the chaos Kashmir has descended into.
> 
> And now, in an eerie flashback to the 1990s, the official crackdown has begun.
> There is no way yet to verify exactly how many of those arrested have been released or booked under PSA &#8212; and that is part of the chaos in Kashmir
> 
> Around 3 pm on 19 August, a 500- strong contingent of security forces surrounded Bemina locality in south Srinagar. All the male residents were asked to assemble in the field outside the local mosque. &#8220;They behaved with us like the army earlier behaved with militants,&#8221; says Imtiaz Ahmed. The police identified 42 men as stone-pelters. &#8220;They randomly called out to anyone wearing good clothes and Nike shoes,&#8221; says Ahmed. &#8220;They said whoever wants azadi, we will burn their house down.&#8221;
> 
> Shameema Begum was at home when they barged into her house, smashed glass windows, pulled out her 60-year-old father and her husband Bashir Ahmad Lone. &#8220;Where is Brett Lee?&#8221; the police asked them raining lathis. &#8220;Give us Brett Lee and we will let you go,&#8221; they said.
> 
> That&#8217;s a nickname for Shameema Begum&#8217;s 11-year-old son Danish, a lean, fair boy who plays cricket and dreams of becoming Sachin Tendulkar. But for the forces, Danish is an active stone-pelter.
> 
> Of the 42 men picked up, seven are still in police custody. Danish&#8217;s father Bashir, a daily wager, is one of them. A few years ago, a fracture disabled Bashir&#8217;s right hand. &#8220;They will only release him in exchange for my son,&#8221; says Begum. Srinagar SP(South) Irshad Ahmad denies this. &#8220;Bashir is in custody because he is also a stonepelter and a top motivator,&#8221; he told TEHELKA.Begum says the police have declared a Rs. 1 lakh reward on Danish. And that Waseem, a barber from UP and Begum&#8217;s tenant, was offered money to reveal the boy&#8217;s whereabouts. &#8220;If we take him to the police,&#8221; Begum asks, &#8220;how do we know what they&#8217;ll do with him?&#8221; That&#8217;s why an 11-year-old boy is in hiding. If the crackdown continues, boys like him may not return overground.
> Divided loyalties Local Kashmiri policemen identify with the azadi aspiration, but are trapped in jobs
> Divided loyalties Local Kashmiri policemen identify with the azadi aspiration, but are trapped in jobs
> 
> If you mapped the cycle of violence, of how the funeral procession of two victims through Sumbal could lead to another death in 24 hours, of why 21-year-old Parvez lying in a hospital bed, his hand Parvez lying in a hospital bed, his hand split by a tear-gas shell, insists he will pelt stones even if that means being martyred, some frightening realities would emerge.
> 
> &#8220;The resentment is not against us, it is against the institution, the Government of India,&#8221; Senior Superintendent of Police Ashiq Bukhari told TEHELKA. &#8220;We are the visible face of that. The people violate and we react. Under Section 13 of the Unlawful Activities Prevention Act (UAPA), even a peaceful protest with pro-freedom slogans cannot be allowed. The quantum of force is up to the officer on the ground. There is no rule book. Yes, he is human and could make a wrong decision. For that, there is a commission of inquiry.&#8221;
> 
> It is almost as if 63 people have been killed in 74 days to keep alive the floundering idea of State. It is in this context that stories of Kashmiris serving in the J&K police become poignant. They are on the frontlines of this battle between citizen and State, representing an idea of nationhood they may not believe in themselves. In conversations with policemen across Srinagar city, it becomes evident that for most &#8220;Hindustan ki wardi&#8221; (uniform) is a necessary evil, a source of livelihood in a state parched for jobs. There is a sense of being trapped between Kashmiri identity and allegiance to India, and almost every constable TEHELKA spoke to said he wouldn&#8217;t let his children join the police.
> 
> This is a relatively new trend. Until the mid-1990s, the local police were not involved in counter-insurgency operations. In 1993, the police rose in revolt against the army and senior police officials after a fellow policeman was tortured and killed in custody. The army stormed the police HQ with tanks. In 1994, a Special Operations Group was formed to assist the army in counter-insurgency, policemen from Jammu and Poonch were in a majority but now, more than ever before, the Kashmir policeman finds himself looked upon as an agent of India.
> 
> THE POLICE say the sense of alienation that began in the summer uprising of 2008 has peaked. Since the last two months, they fear going back to their villages as many have faced social boycott. Constables, sub-inspectors, and even officers of the rank of SHO, now carry private IDs &#8212; press, PDP, even Hurriyat &#8212; to escape being lynched.
> 
> TEHELKA has learnt from a credible police source that as of 19 August, 1,800 J&K policemen have applied for voluntary retirement. While it is not clear how many of them want to opt out due to the current situation, it is a sign of the growing anguish.
> 
> A week ago, a constable was leaving his post in civvies when the CRPF caught him. He was beaten for violating curfew even before he could show his police ID card. On the way back to his post, he was beaten by a mob for being in the police. &#8220;We belong neither here nor there,&#8221; he says. &#8220;We are serving the Indian forces like Indians did in the British army.&#8221;
> 
> Two weeks ago, Sheikh Rauf, an NGO worker, saw a CRPF soldier abusing Kashmiris. A police officer asked him to stop but he didn&#8217;t. Finally, the policeman got up and screamed, &#8220;I&#8217;ll shoot you with your own gun.&#8221;
> 
> So while the CRPF is supposed to aid the local police, the reverse is true. &#8220;We are better trained for this job than the CRPF, but because they are more in number, they do what they want,&#8221; says an SHO.
> &#8216;If they protest without destroying government property, then I am with them. I too want azadi,&#8217; says head constable Mohammad Ramzan
> 
> This is leading to a strange dynamic on the ground. When head constable Mohammed Ramzan tried to stop the CRPF from firing, he says he was held by the neck and beaten. &#8220;I only allow myself to keep a lathi, a helmet and a shield,&#8221; he says. &#8220;I don&#8217;t keep a gun in hand, otherwise I might be compelled to fire. If they protest without destroying government property, then I am with them. I too want azadi.&#8221;
> 
> &#8220;I&#8217;m in the police but my brothers are pelting stones in my village,&#8221; says a constable from the Trar region. Last year, his brother was picked up from home, shown to be in possession of arms, booked under the PSA and jailed for six months. On a trip home last month, villagers began to pressurise him to leave the police.
> 
> &#8220;I&#8217;m worried that my family will become a target. I am considering resigning. They are alone in the village,&#8221; he says. &#8220;I am a Kashmiri. Writing my nationality as Indian is only an administrative compulsion. If I weren&#8217;t in uniform, I&#8217;d be pelting stones,&#8221; he says.


Tehelka - India's Independent Weekly News Magazine


----------



## Swift

She is the same lady who was trying to get a passport for her son to send him abroad for higher studies, away fro this turmoil recently.


----------



## civfanatic

> *The pelters and the police. Thousands of stones later, the men in uniform may be on the same side with the boys in masks
> *
> BY TUSHA MITTAL IN SRINAGAR
> 
> 
> BY THE time you read this, the life and death of 22- year-old Bilal Ahmed Sheikh would have become a mere statistic: Civilian No. 63 killed by the security forces since 11 June  the day another boy, 17-year-old Tufail, breathed his last, sparking an intifada-like uprising in Kashmir.
> 
> Not a single police or paramilitary officer has been arrested for civilian deaths. FIRs against unknown persons have been registered, except for one case in Sopore against the CRPF for unprovoked firing. A commission of inquiry is looking into the first 17 deaths. The home minister has admitted, At least a dozen killings may have been unprovoked.
> 
> It has been more than 24 hours since Habibullah Tiblu was brought to SKIMS hospital with two bullets inside him, but the operation room is not yet available  it is already handling hundreds of injuries from stone, pellet gun, teargas shell and bullet. No compensation has been paid to injured civilians. Twenty-six men in SHMS hospital have just been told that they will never see again. Zubaid Khan, a Class 12 student from Khanyar, is one. He had just stepped out of his home when a stone hurled by the CRPF smashed into his eye.
> 
> So far, 800 policemen have been paid compensation of Rs. 5,000 each for injuries. I fell down after a stone hit my head, and needed five stitches, says an injured deputy superintendent of police. Yet I instructed my men not to fire.
> 
> According to Srinagar SP(South) Irshad Ahmed, more than 400 stone-pelters are currently in jail. Civil rights groups put that number at 1,500 in the entire district. Rafiqa Begum is holding back the sobs as she stares at piles of ******* apples. On 20 August, she says, her 16-year-old son Omar Saleem was picked up while selling fruits in Rambagh. He left school so he could support the family. If they keep him in jail, we will be destroyed, she says.
> 
> There is no way yet to verify exactly how many of those arrested have been released or booked under the Public Safety Act (PSA)  and that is part of the chaos Kashmir has descended into.
> 
> And now, in an eerie flashback to the 1990s, the official crackdown has begun.
> There is no way yet to verify exactly how many of those arrested have been released or booked under PSA  and that is part of the chaos in Kashmir
> 
> Around 3 pm on 19 August, a 500- strong contingent of security forces surrounded Bemina locality in south Srinagar. All the male residents were asked to assemble in the field outside the local mosque. They behaved with us like the army earlier behaved with militants, says Imtiaz Ahmed. The police identified 42 men as stone-pelters. They randomly called out to anyone wearing good clothes and Nike shoes, says Ahmed. They said whoever wants azadi, we will burn their house down.
> 
> Shameema Begum was at home when they barged into her house, smashed glass windows, pulled out her 60-year-old father and her husband Bashir Ahmad Lone. Where is Brett Lee? the police asked them raining lathis. Give us Brett Lee and we will let you go, they said.
> 
> Thats a nickname for Shameema Begums 11-year-old son Danish, a lean, fair boy who plays cricket and dreams of becoming Sachin Tendulkar. But for the forces, Danish is an active stone-pelter.
> 
> Of the 42 men picked up, seven are still in police custody. Danishs father Bashir, a daily wager, is one of them. A few years ago, a fracture disabled Bashirs right hand. They will only release him in exchange for my son, says Begum. Srinagar SP(South) Irshad Ahmad denies this. Bashir is in custody because he is also a stonepelter and a top motivator, he told TEHELKA.Begum says the police have declared a Rs. 1 lakh reward on Danish. And that Waseem, a barber from UP and Begums tenant, was offered money to reveal the boys whereabouts. If we take him to the police, Begum asks, how do we know what theyll do with him? Thats why an 11-year-old boy is in hiding. If the crackdown continues, boys like him may not return overground.
> Divided loyalties Local Kashmiri policemen identify with the azadi aspiration, but are trapped in jobs
> Divided loyalties Local Kashmiri policemen identify with the azadi aspiration, but are trapped in jobs
> 
> If you mapped the cycle of violence, of how the funeral procession of two victims through Sumbal could lead to another death in 24 hours, of why 21-year-old Parvez lying in a hospital bed, his hand Parvez lying in a hospital bed, his hand split by a tear-gas shell, insists he will pelt stones even if that means being martyred, some frightening realities would emerge.
> 
> The resentment is not against us, it is against the institution, the Government of India, Senior Superintendent of Police Ashiq Bukhari told TEHELKA. We are the visible face of that. The people violate and we react. Under Section 13 of the Unlawful Activities Prevention Act (UAPA), even a peaceful protest with pro-freedom slogans cannot be allowed. The quantum of force is up to the officer on the ground. There is no rule book. Yes, he is human and could make a wrong decision. For that, there is a commission of inquiry.
> 
> It is almost as if 63 people have been killed in 74 days to keep alive the floundering idea of State. It is in this context that stories of Kashmiris serving in the J&K police become poignant. They are on the frontlines of this battle between citizen and State, representing an idea of nationhood they may not believe in themselves. In conversations with policemen across Srinagar city, it becomes evident that for most Hindustan ki wardi (uniform) is a necessary evil, a source of livelihood in a state parched for jobs. There is a sense of being trapped between Kashmiri identity and allegiance to India, and almost every constable TEHELKA spoke to said he wouldnt let his children join the police.
> 
> This is a relatively new trend. Until the mid-1990s, the local police were not involved in counter-insurgency operations. In 1993, the police rose in revolt against the army and senior police officials after a fellow policeman was tortured and killed in custody. The army stormed the police HQ with tanks. In 1994, a Special Operations Group was formed to assist the army in counter-insurgency, policemen from Jammu and Poonch were in a majority but now, more than ever before, the Kashmir policeman finds himself looked upon as an agent of India.
> 
> THE POLICE say the sense of alienation that began in the summer uprising of 2008 has peaked. Since the last two months, they fear going back to their villages as many have faced social boycott. Constables, sub-inspectors, and even officers of the rank of SHO, now carry private IDs  press, PDP, even Hurriyat  to escape being lynched.
> 
> TEHELKA has learnt from a credible police source that as of 19 August, 1,800 J&K policemen have applied for voluntary retirement. While it is not clear how many of them want to opt out due to the current situation, it is a sign of the growing anguish.
> 
> A week ago, a constable was leaving his post in civvies when the CRPF caught him. He was beaten for violating curfew even before he could show his police ID card. On the way back to his post, he was beaten by a mob for being in the police. We belong neither here nor there, he says. We are serving the Indian forces like Indians did in the British army.
> 
> Two weeks ago, Sheikh Rauf, an NGO worker, saw a CRPF soldier abusing Kashmiris. A police officer asked him to stop but he didnt. Finally, the policeman got up and screamed, Ill shoot you with your own gun.
> 
> So while the CRPF is supposed to aid the local police, the reverse is true. We are better trained for this job than the CRPF, but because they are more in number, they do what they want, says an SHO.
> If they protest without destroying government property, then I am with them. I too want azadi, says head constable Mohammad Ramzan
> 
> This is leading to a strange dynamic on the ground. When head constable Mohammed Ramzan tried to stop the CRPF from firing, he says he was held by the neck and beaten. I only allow myself to keep a lathi, a helmet and a shield, he says. I dont keep a gun in hand, otherwise I might be compelled to fire. If they protest without destroying government property, then I am with them. I too want azadi.
> 
> Im in the police but my brothers are pelting stones in my village, says a constable from the Trar region. Last year, his brother was picked up from home, shown to be in possession of arms, booked under the PSA and jailed for six months. On a trip home last month, villagers began to pressurise him to leave the police.
> 
> Im worried that my family will become a target. I am considering resigning. They are alone in the village, he says. I am a Kashmiri. Writing my nationality as Indian is only an administrative compulsion. If I werent in uniform, Id be pelting stones, he says.


Tehelka - India's Independent Weekly News Magazine


----------



## Swift

Separatist wants kids to fight, but not her son


Separatist Kashmir womens party Dukhtaran-i-Millat chief Asiya Andrabi doesnt seem to practise what she preaches. Andrabi, whose outfit (the name means Daughters of the Faith) is a constituent of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, has been telling students of the Kashmir Valley to boycott
school and study at home. But when it comes to her elder son, 18-year-old Muhammad bin Qasim, she would like him to pursue his studies abroad.

This is evident from the students visa her son applied for in February this year.

Admitting that her son wanted to study in Malaysia, Andrabi said, I approved of the Malaysia option because it is an Islamic state and my elder sister was insisting on sending my elder son there. But I will not send him abroad now after the Indian medias propaganda to focus on my sons as my weakness.

Andrabis elder son has cleared the entrance exam for Kashmir Universitys five-year course for a Bachelor in Business Administration degree. Her younger son is in class 4.

Revelation of this dichotomy in Andrabis stand has angered the man on the street. She cannot send her son abroad and ask other children to die on the streets, said Quratulain Bhat, a mother of two children.

But many moderate separatists who send their children to school defended Andrabi. I think both things will have to go hand in hand -agitation and studies. We need educated people who can plead our case better in world forums, said Shahid-ul-Islam, a moderate Hurriyat leader.

Andrabi, however, insists that students in Kashmir should study at home. Freedom does not come on a platter, but only after sacrifices. We have to sacrifice. So what if we lose one year of studies? she argued.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## civfanatic

> *The pelters and the police. Thousands of stones later, the men in uniform may be on the same side with the boys in masks
> *
> BY TUSHA MITTAL IN SRINAGAR
> 
> 
> BY THE time you read this, the life and death of 22- year-old Bilal Ahmed Sheikh would have become a mere statistic: Civilian No. 63 killed by the security forces since 11 June  the day another boy, 17-year-old Tufail, breathed his last, sparking an intifada-like uprising in Kashmir.
> 
> Not a single police or paramilitary officer has been arrested for civilian deaths. FIRs against unknown persons have been registered, except for one case in Sopore against the CRPF for unprovoked firing. A commission of inquiry is looking into the first 17 deaths. The home minister has admitted, At least a dozen killings may have been unprovoked.
> 
> It has been more than 24 hours since Habibullah Tiblu was brought to SKIMS hospital with two bullets inside him, but the operation room is not yet available  it is already handling hundreds of injuries from stone, pellet gun, teargas shell and bullet. No compensation has been paid to injured civilians. Twenty-six men in SHMS hospital have just been told that they will never see again. Zubaid Khan, a Class 12 student from Khanyar, is one. He had just stepped out of his home when a stone hurled by the CRPF smashed into his eye.
> 
> So far, 800 policemen have been paid compensation of Rs. 5,000 each for injuries. I fell down after a stone hit my head, and needed five stitches, says an injured deputy superintendent of police. Yet I instructed my men not to fire.
> 
> According to Srinagar SP(South) Irshad Ahmed, more than 400 stone-pelters are currently in jail. Civil rights groups put that number at 1,500 in the entire district. Rafiqa Begum is holding back the sobs as she stares at piles of ******* apples. On 20 August, she says, her 16-year-old son Omar Saleem was picked up while selling fruits in Rambagh. He left school so he could support the family. If they keep him in jail, we will be destroyed, she says.
> 
> There is no way yet to verify exactly how many of those arrested have been released or booked under the Public Safety Act (PSA)  and that is part of the chaos Kashmir has descended into.
> 
> And now, in an eerie flashback to the 1990s, the official crackdown has begun.
> There is no way yet to verify exactly how many of those arrested have been released or booked under PSA  and that is part of the chaos in Kashmir
> 
> Around 3 pm on 19 August, a 500- strong contingent of security forces surrounded Bemina locality in south Srinagar. All the male residents were asked to assemble in the field outside the local mosque. They behaved with us like the army earlier behaved with militants, says Imtiaz Ahmed. The police identified 42 men as stone-pelters. They randomly called out to anyone wearing good clothes and Nike shoes, says Ahmed. They said whoever wants azadi, we will burn their house down.
> 
> Shameema Begum was at home when they barged into her house, smashed glass windows, pulled out her 60-year-old father and her husband Bashir Ahmad Lone. Where is Brett Lee? the police asked them raining lathis. Give us Brett Lee and we will let you go, they said.
> 
> Thats a nickname for Shameema Begums 11-year-old son Danish, a lean, fair boy who plays cricket and dreams of becoming Sachin Tendulkar. But for the forces, Danish is an active stone-pelter.
> 
> Of the 42 men picked up, seven are still in police custody. Danishs father Bashir, a daily wager, is one of them. A few years ago, a fracture disabled Bashirs right hand. They will only release him in exchange for my son, says Begum. Srinagar SP(South) Irshad Ahmad denies this. Bashir is in custody because he is also a stonepelter and a top motivator, he told TEHELKA.Begum says the police have declared a Rs. 1 lakh reward on Danish. And that Waseem, a barber from UP and Begums tenant, was offered money to reveal the boys whereabouts. If we take him to the police, Begum asks, how do we know what theyll do with him? Thats why an 11-year-old boy is in hiding. If the crackdown continues, boys like him may not return overground.
> Divided loyalties Local Kashmiri policemen identify with the azadi aspiration, but are trapped in jobs
> Divided loyalties Local Kashmiri policemen identify with the azadi aspiration, but are trapped in jobs
> 
> If you mapped the cycle of violence, of how the funeral procession of two victims through Sumbal could lead to another death in 24 hours, of why 21-year-old Parvez lying in a hospital bed, his hand Parvez lying in a hospital bed, his hand split by a tear-gas shell, insists he will pelt stones even if that means being martyred, some frightening realities would emerge.
> 
> The resentment is not against us, it is against the institution, the Government of India, Senior Superintendent of Police Ashiq Bukhari told TEHELKA. We are the visible face of that. The people violate and we react. Under Section 13 of the Unlawful Activities Prevention Act (UAPA), even a peaceful protest with pro-freedom slogans cannot be allowed. The quantum of force is up to the officer on the ground. There is no rule book. Yes, he is human and could make a wrong decision. For that, there is a commission of inquiry.
> 
> It is almost as if 63 people have been killed in 74 days to keep alive the floundering idea of State. It is in this context that stories of Kashmiris serving in the J&K police become poignant. They are on the frontlines of this battle between citizen and State, representing an idea of nationhood they may not believe in themselves. In conversations with policemen across Srinagar city, it becomes evident that for most Hindustan ki wardi (uniform) is a necessary evil, a source of livelihood in a state parched for jobs. There is a sense of being trapped between Kashmiri identity and allegiance to India, and almost every constable TEHELKA spoke to said he wouldnt let his children join the police.
> 
> This is a relatively new trend. Until the mid-1990s, the local police were not involved in counter-insurgency operations. In 1993, the police rose in revolt against the army and senior police officials after a fellow policeman was tortured and killed in custody. The army stormed the police HQ with tanks. In 1994, a Special Operations Group was formed to assist the army in counter-insurgency, policemen from Jammu and Poonch were in a majority but now, more than ever before, the Kashmir policeman finds himself looked upon as an agent of India.
> 
> THE POLICE say the sense of alienation that began in the summer uprising of 2008 has peaked. Since the last two months, they fear going back to their villages as many have faced social boycott. Constables, sub-inspectors, and even officers of the rank of SHO, now carry private IDs  press, PDP, even Hurriyat  to escape being lynched.
> 
> TEHELKA has learnt from a credible police source that as of 19 August, 1,800 J&K policemen have applied for voluntary retirement. While it is not clear how many of them want to opt out due to the current situation, it is a sign of the growing anguish.
> 
> A week ago, a constable was leaving his post in civvies when the CRPF caught him. He was beaten for violating curfew even before he could show his police ID card. On the way back to his post, he was beaten by a mob for being in the police. We belong neither here nor there, he says. We are serving the Indian forces like Indians did in the British army.
> 
> Two weeks ago, Sheikh Rauf, an NGO worker, saw a CRPF soldier abusing Kashmiris. A police officer asked him to stop but he didnt. Finally, the policeman got up and screamed, Ill shoot you with your own gun.
> 
> So while the CRPF is supposed to aid the local police, the reverse is true. We are better trained for this job than the CRPF, but because they are more in number, they do what they want, says an SHO.
> If they protest without destroying government property, then I am with them. I too want azadi, says head constable Mohammad Ramzan
> 
> This is leading to a strange dynamic on the ground. When head constable Mohammed Ramzan tried to stop the CRPF from firing, he says he was held by the neck and beaten. I only allow myself to keep a lathi, a helmet and a shield, he says. I dont keep a gun in hand, otherwise I might be compelled to fire. If they protest without destroying government property, then I am with them. I too want azadi.
> 
> Im in the police but my brothers are pelting stones in my village, says a constable from the Trar region. Last year, his brother was picked up from home, shown to be in possession of arms, booked under the PSA and jailed for six months. On a trip home last month, villagers began to pressurise him to leave the police.
> 
> Im worried that my family will become a target. I am considering resigning. They are alone in the village, he says. I am a Kashmiri. Writing my nationality as Indian is only an administrative compulsion. If I werent in uniform, Id be pelting stones, he says.


Tehelka - India's Independent Weekly News Magazine


----------



## civfanatic

> *The pelters and the police. Thousands of stones later, the men in uniform may be on the same side with the boys in masks
> *
> BY TUSHA MITTAL IN SRINAGAR
> 
> 
> BY THE time you read this, the life and death of 22- year-old Bilal Ahmed Sheikh would have become a mere statistic: Civilian No. 63 killed by the security forces since 11 June  the day another boy, 17-year-old Tufail, breathed his last, sparking an intifada-like uprising in Kashmir.
> 
> Not a single police or paramilitary officer has been arrested for civilian deaths. FIRs against unknown persons have been registered, except for one case in Sopore against the CRPF for unprovoked firing. A commission of inquiry is looking into the first 17 deaths. The home minister has admitted, At least a dozen killings may have been unprovoked.
> 
> It has been more than 24 hours since Habibullah Tiblu was brought to SKIMS hospital with two bullets inside him, but the operation room is not yet available  it is already handling hundreds of injuries from stone, pellet gun, teargas shell and bullet. No compensation has been paid to injured civilians. Twenty-six men in SHMS hospital have just been told that they will never see again. Zubaid Khan, a Class 12 student from Khanyar, is one. He had just stepped out of his home when a stone hurled by the CRPF smashed into his eye.
> 
> So far, 800 policemen have been paid compensation of Rs. 5,000 each for injuries. I fell down after a stone hit my head, and needed five stitches, says an injured deputy superintendent of police. Yet I instructed my men not to fire.
> 
> According to Srinagar SP(South) Irshad Ahmed, more than 400 stone-pelters are currently in jail. Civil rights groups put that number at 1,500 in the entire district. Rafiqa Begum is holding back the sobs as she stares at piles of ******* apples. On 20 August, she says, her 16-year-old son Omar Saleem was picked up while selling fruits in Rambagh. He left school so he could support the family. If they keep him in jail, we will be destroyed, she says.
> 
> There is no way yet to verify exactly how many of those arrested have been released or booked under the Public Safety Act (PSA)  and that is part of the chaos Kashmir has descended into.
> 
> And now, in an eerie flashback to the 1990s, the official crackdown has begun.
> There is no way yet to verify exactly how many of those arrested have been released or booked under PSA  and that is part of the chaos in Kashmir
> 
> Around 3 pm on 19 August, a 500- strong contingent of security forces surrounded Bemina locality in south Srinagar. All the male residents were asked to assemble in the field outside the local mosque. They behaved with us like the army earlier behaved with militants, says Imtiaz Ahmed. The police identified 42 men as stone-pelters. They randomly called out to anyone wearing good clothes and Nike shoes, says Ahmed. They said whoever wants azadi, we will burn their house down.
> 
> Shameema Begum was at home when they barged into her house, smashed glass windows, pulled out her 60-year-old father and her husband Bashir Ahmad Lone. Where is Brett Lee? the police asked them raining lathis. Give us Brett Lee and we will let you go, they said.
> 
> Thats a nickname for Shameema Begums 11-year-old son Danish, a lean, fair boy who plays cricket and dreams of becoming Sachin Tendulkar. But for the forces, Danish is an active stone-pelter.
> 
> Of the 42 men picked up, seven are still in police custody. Danishs father Bashir, a daily wager, is one of them. A few years ago, a fracture disabled Bashirs right hand. They will only release him in exchange for my son, says Begum. Srinagar SP(South) Irshad Ahmad denies this. Bashir is in custody because he is also a stonepelter and a top motivator, he told TEHELKA.Begum says the police have declared a Rs. 1 lakh reward on Danish. And that Waseem, a barber from UP and Begums tenant, was offered money to reveal the boys whereabouts. If we take him to the police, Begum asks, how do we know what theyll do with him? Thats why an 11-year-old boy is in hiding. If the crackdown continues, boys like him may not return overground.
> Divided loyalties Local Kashmiri policemen identify with the azadi aspiration, but are trapped in jobs
> Divided loyalties Local Kashmiri policemen identify with the azadi aspiration, but are trapped in jobs
> 
> If you mapped the cycle of violence, of how the funeral procession of two victims through Sumbal could lead to another death in 24 hours, of why 21-year-old Parvez lying in a hospital bed, his hand Parvez lying in a hospital bed, his hand split by a tear-gas shell, insists he will pelt stones even if that means being martyred, some frightening realities would emerge.
> 
> The resentment is not against us, it is against the institution, the Government of India, Senior Superintendent of Police Ashiq Bukhari told TEHELKA. We are the visible face of that. The people violate and we react. Under Section 13 of the Unlawful Activities Prevention Act (UAPA), even a peaceful protest with pro-freedom slogans cannot be allowed. The quantum of force is up to the officer on the ground. There is no rule book. Yes, he is human and could make a wrong decision. For that, there is a commission of inquiry.
> 
> It is almost as if 63 people have been killed in 74 days to keep alive the floundering idea of State. It is in this context that stories of Kashmiris serving in the J&K police become poignant. They are on the frontlines of this battle between citizen and State, representing an idea of nationhood they may not believe in themselves. In conversations with policemen across Srinagar city, it becomes evident that for most Hindustan ki wardi (uniform) is a necessary evil, a source of livelihood in a state parched for jobs. There is a sense of being trapped between Kashmiri identity and allegiance to India, and almost every constable TEHELKA spoke to said he wouldnt let his children join the police.
> 
> This is a relatively new trend. Until the mid-1990s, the local police were not involved in counter-insurgency operations. In 1993, the police rose in revolt against the army and senior police officials after a fellow policeman was tortured and killed in custody. The army stormed the police HQ with tanks. In 1994, a Special Operations Group was formed to assist the army in counter-insurgency, policemen from Jammu and Poonch were in a majority but now, more than ever before, the Kashmir policeman finds himself looked upon as an agent of India.
> 
> THE POLICE say the sense of alienation that began in the summer uprising of 2008 has peaked. Since the last two months, they fear going back to their villages as many have faced social boycott. Constables, sub-inspectors, and even officers of the rank of SHO, now carry private IDs  press, PDP, even Hurriyat  to escape being lynched.
> 
> TEHELKA has learnt from a credible police source that as of 19 August, 1,800 J&K policemen have applied for voluntary retirement. While it is not clear how many of them want to opt out due to the current situation, it is a sign of the growing anguish.
> 
> A week ago, a constable was leaving his post in civvies when the CRPF caught him. He was beaten for violating curfew even before he could show his police ID card. On the way back to his post, he was beaten by a mob for being in the police. We belong neither here nor there, he says. We are serving the Indian forces like Indians did in the British army.
> 
> Two weeks ago, Sheikh Rauf, an NGO worker, saw a CRPF soldier abusing Kashmiris. A police officer asked him to stop but he didnt. Finally, the policeman got up and screamed, Ill shoot you with your own gun.
> 
> So while the CRPF is supposed to aid the local police, the reverse is true. We are better trained for this job than the CRPF, but because they are more in number, they do what they want, says an SHO.
> If they protest without destroying government property, then I am with them. I too want azadi, says head constable Mohammad Ramzan
> 
> This is leading to a strange dynamic on the ground. When head constable Mohammed Ramzan tried to stop the CRPF from firing, he says he was held by the neck and beaten. I only allow myself to keep a lathi, a helmet and a shield, he says. I dont keep a gun in hand, otherwise I might be compelled to fire. If they protest without destroying government property, then I am with them. I too want azadi.
> 
> Im in the police but my brothers are pelting stones in my village, says a constable from the Trar region. Last year, his brother was picked up from home, shown to be in possession of arms, booked under the PSA and jailed for six months. On a trip home last month, villagers began to pressurise him to leave the police.
> 
> Im worried that my family will become a target. I am considering resigning. They are alone in the village, he says. I am a Kashmiri. Writing my nationality as Indian is only an administrative compulsion. If I werent in uniform, Id be pelting stones, he says.


Tehelka - India's Independent Weekly News Magazine

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## Bhairava

civfanatic said:


> Tehelka - India's Independent Weekly News Magazine



What's surprising in it.?? The government doesnt give them adequate body protection or legal protection,the media always crticises them for anything going wrong,the Human rights groups (who ignore the abuses of the militants) constantly hound these brave men in the name of HR abuses,the majority of the common man doesnt care about them.

With the above situation its surprising only 1800 have applied.

BTW the source is Tehelka a rabid anti-establishment magazine.So a pinch of salt is advised.


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## Ganga

Andrabi is a hypocrite.On one hand she tells young Kashmiris to stop going to schools and colleges and participate in the unrest.On the other hand she tries to send her son away from any kind of danger to study in Malaysia.I am glad that the GOI refused to give a passport to her son.If she is so interested in azadi then her son should be at the forefront of the movement.She should be kept behind bars her entire life.


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## deep.ocean

She was the leader behind the shut down of educational institutions in Kashmir but irony was that she was trying for Indian Passport for her elder son for higher education in abroad while she was asking kashmiri youth to join their stone pelting jihad... such a double standards for her own and other mother's children.

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## SpArK

Nice article.

Acknowledgment that the police men were infact the same people like the "stoned" ones at least in ethnicity.

Now the stoned ones can apply for the police force and be at receiving end.

Its called the "stone cycle". LOL


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## karan.1970

^ her son is too young to join her profession


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## Bhairava

karan.1970 said:


> Hardline woman separatist leader Asiya Andrabi arrested in Srinagar - India - The Times of India
> 
> For these protests, I Hear the fat lady singing..
> ============================================
> SRINAGAR: Hardline woman separatist leader Asiya Andrabi, believed to be one of the masterminds of the current unrest in the Kashmir Valley, was arrested from a hideout here on Saturday, police said.
> 
> Andrabi was arrested from Zakura on the city outskirts, a police officer told IANS.
> 
> The chief of the women's separatist outfit Dukhtaran-e-Millat, Andrabi was issuing shutdown calendars through emails to the media and was one of the brains behind the turmoil in the valley, police said.
> 
> The 50-year-old Andrabi, a staunch votary of Jammu and Kashmir's merger with Pakistan, had been asking Kashmiris to observe shutdowns, close down businesses and schools and participate in protest demonstrations.
> 
> *She had been in hiding for the last three months.*
> 
> ============================================



Hiding..? Speaks volumes about the freedom fighting spirit.

Anyways very late,yet a good move...

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## merajahmed

will u care to check this what is going in ur country


QUETTA - A youngster has been killed and several others wounded, including two women, in a firing incident on public gathering in Tump, District Kech, on Sunday. According to sources, a large number of male and female activists of Baloch National Front (BNF) were attending a rally to protest the killing of Mir Jan Miral Baloch in an exchange of fire between the security forces and militants three days back in Tump. BNF Spokesman Sher Muhammad Bugti alleged that Frontiers Corps (FC) personnel baton-charged protesters and resorted to firing and teargas shelling, which resulted in the death of 19-year-old Mukhtar Aziz. Two women and several other activists were also injured.However, the officials of the Frontier Corps have denied the accusation, saying they resorted to aerial firing to disperse the protesters when unknown assailants opened fire resulting in a death while injuring seven others, including two security forces personnel. They said FC men had also arrested four accused persons and handed them over to police for further interrogation. Meanwhile, BNF has announced a three-day shutter down strike across the Makran belt to mourn the killing of their party member while Baloch Bar Association has announced boycott of all courts today (Monday) across the province. To register their protest, rallies will be organised across Balochistan. Balochistan National Party (Mengal) and National Party in their separate statements have also strongly condemned the killing of Baloch youth and FC firing on a peaceful rally.


Code:


http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Politics/07-Sep-2009/Youth-killed-in-FC-troops-firing


The fifth and ongoing military operation in Balochistan has resulted in the brutal massacre of thousands of Baloch people including defenseless women and children, resulting in the mass displacements of the people of the districts of Kohlu and Dera Bugti, mainly women and children, due to unabated aerial bombing and ground offensives by the Pakistan army. Thousands of Baloch including politicians, students, teachers, journalists, doctors, writers, intellectuals and human rights defenders have been subjected to enforced and involuntary disappearances whereas many have been victims of targeted killings by the military and the intelligence agencies. Mutilated corpses of Baloch patriots struggling for the salvation of their motherland have been found after being thrown off helicopters, hanging off trees, burnt alive in barrels of hot coal tar, or dumped in the desert to rot after inexplicable brutal torture. Peaceful protestors have been suppressed, political representatives arbitrarily detained and the freedom of expression and assembly totally restricted.



The recent killings of members of the Baloch Students Organization and the unprovoked attacks on cultural events, demonstrations and processions of political parties is another example of the Pakistani state terrorism and justifies the Baloch struggle against the oppressor. A senior Pakistani police official in Balochistan also recently said that they would resort to targeted killings in Balochistan. Pakistan has also exploited the recent cyclone that has hit Balochistan as an opportunity to deploy additional troops in the coastal areas, not to provide relief, but to further suppress the Baloch at a critical time.



Code:


http://www.unpo.org/article/11265


Pakistan's security forces have been waging a "secret war" in the Baluchistan region since the death of tribal leader Mir Balaach Marri in combat last month. Peter Tatchell writes in The Guardian, Dec. 21: "The often indiscriminate attacks on civilian settlements are taking place mostly in the Kahan and Dera Bugti regions, and involve the deployment of heavy artillery, fighter aircraft and helicopter gunships. Pakistan's attacks have reportedly, so far, resulted in deaths of at least 100 men, women and children. More than 200 houses and other buildings, including schools and clinics, have been bombed and burned to the ground. Many farm animals were also killed in the attacks, depriving already poor people of their livelihood."



Code:


http://www.ww4report.com/node/4851

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## civfanatic

deep.ocean said:


> She was the leader behind the shut down of educational institutions in Kashmir but irony was that she was trying for Indian Passport for her elder son for higher education in abroad while she was asking kashmiri youth to join their stone pelting jihad... such a double standards for her own and other mother's children.



Her son is here in kashmir and shares every joy and sorrow with other Kashmiris .


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## EjazR

It doesnt really matter if she is arrested or not. She represents the fringe group. 

GoI has to be bold and take credible forward steps starting with transparent investigation of HR violations, removal of CRPF from civilian areas and repeal of AFSPA and PSA acts in phases in a time bound manner or atleast ammendemnts.

That is the way that will lead forward to some meaningful steps.

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## somebozo

The stoning of deceptive devil nehru paved the way for Pakistan. The stoning of IOK security forces will pave the way for Kashmiri struggle. Even if it doesnt lead to resolution like the Palestinenans, it would still prove to be a formidable resistance. I just wish the stones gets replaced with grenades.


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## somebozo

The stoning of deceptive devil nehru paved the way for Pakistan. The stoning of IOK security forces will pave the way for Kashmiri struggle. Even if it doesnt lead to resolution like the Palestinenans, it would still prove to be a formidable resistance. I just wish the stones gets replaced with grenades.


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## karan.1970

^ Omar is too raw to handle the situation. You need someone more seasoned. Like his dad.. If his speech in the parliament is anything to go by, we should be seeing him in a more active role in Kashmir.


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## karan.1970

^ Lage raho dost.. Ummeed pe duniya kayaam hai. In Pakistan, RDX and similar materials have already replaced stones. Dont assume every thing that happens in Pakistan will happen in India too..

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## indianpatriot

sad really sad...we should arrest Sonia Gandhi and gift India to Pakistan...that way we will remain secular!!!


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## Bhairava

somebozo said:


> . I just wish the stones gets replaced with grenades.



Please do it at the earliest so that we can replace our lathis and shields with 5.56 mm and 7.62 mm and finish this problem once and for all.


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## karan.1970

indianpatriot said:


> sad really sad...we should arrest Sonia Gandhi and gift India to Pakistan...that way we will remain secular!!!



Huh??? What do you mean?


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## A.Muqeet khan

Gounder said:


> Please do it at the earliest so that we can replace our lathis and shields with 5.56 mm and 7.62 mm and finish this problem once and for all.



this problem can never be finished it will go on and on and on u may kill ppl but u wont be able to destroy their legacy


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## Bhairava

karan.1970 said:


> Huh??? What do you mean?



He is talking about the greatest cross border terrorism India can do to Pakistan - ship the Congress leadership from India to Pakistan.

Bas Khatam.

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## Swift

Gounder said:


> He is talking about the greatest cross border terrorism India can do to Pakistan - ship the Congress leadership from India to Pakistan.
> 
> Bas Khatam.



You guys are already in weekend mode.

Do peg ke baad kuchh bhi theory prove kar sakte ho.

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## Swift

--------------Deleted duplicate posts---------------

Sorry guys my so called broadband connection is troubling me bad.


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## Spring Onion

&#8220;I am a Kashmiri. Writing my nationality as Indian is only an administrative compulsion. If I weren&#8217;t in uniform, I&#8217;d be pelting stones,&#8221; he says.[/B]


People from all sides of Kashmir wants to join India says Indian puppet bwahahahahahahaaaaaaaa


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## Awesome

Awesome. Nasso nasso, Kashmiri chah gaye.


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## Spring Onion

I am a Kashmiri. Writing my nationality as Indian is only an administrative compulsion. If I werent in uniform, Id be pelting stones, he says.[/B]


People from all sides of Kashmir wants to join India says Indian puppet bwahahahahahahaaaaaaaa

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## Awesome

Awesome. Nasso nasso, Kashmiri chah gaye.


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## Markus

civfanatic said:


> So far, 800 policemen have been paid compensation of Rs. 5,000 each for injuries. &#8220;I fell down after a stone hit my head, and needed five stitches,&#8221; says an injured deputy superintendent of police. &#8220;*Yet I instructed my men not to fire*.&#8221;



Even after all this - the security men are being accused of recklessness.


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## EjazR

Atleast this proves that the local J&K police is involved in crowd control duties and NOT the Indian army as is wrongly potrayed.

The CRPF is also involved which is also a police force. However, they should be removed from civilian areas and brought in only when needed. CRPF is a very ill trained and low paid force and needs to be revamped completed. Sometimes they are sent to do crowd control and other times they are sent to fight naxalites. This is really insanity on the HM's part.


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## Awesome

These are not stones, but boulders of a long overdue laanat on the tyrants that have subjugated a free people. I said this months ago, this time Indians won't be able to stop this.


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## EjazR

*Kashmir's stone-pelters may be released before Eid - Hindustan Times*

The Jammu and Kashmir government is thinking of setting free more than 700 stone-pelters arrested during the past two months in the Kashmir Valley, as a "goodwill gesture" on the eve of Eid next month, officials said on Saturday. The release of the stone-pelters and their reunion with their families would help calm tempers in the Valley, where voices calling for restraint and understanding the psyche of the stone throwers have gained momentum.

"If we could release militants on such occasions (Muslim festivals as also India's Independence Day and Republic Day), there should be no harm in setting free the stone-pelters," an official, who is behind the move, told IANS.

The idea has been "well received" by Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, who "is against incarceration of teenagers who in a swirl of anger might have taken to the streets and thrown stones", the official said.

The parents of the arrested youth have also been pleading with the authorities to set them free with some of them even noting that if the chief minister could pardon a policeman who threw a shoe at him during the Independence Day function on Aug 15, why can't he forgive the youth who acted due to anger and frustration of the times.

"They (the jailed youth) are our own people and we cannot treat them like criminals for ever," the official said.

Id-ul-Fitr may fall on Sep 10 or 11, depending on the sighting of the moon.

Most of the arrested stone-pelters who are in their teens were arrested from Srinagar, Baramulla, Bijbehra and Sopore areas of the Valley, which saw heavy stone-pelting in the past 10 weeks. The motives attributed range from anger against misgovernance, unemployment, sentiment for 'azadi' (freedom), to monetary benefits and instigation.

While the government had been maintaining that the phenomenon of stone throwing started with instigation by Kashmiri separatists and Pakistan, the separatists and their sympathisers have called it a "manifestation of resistance against the Indian rule in Kashmir" and also a tool of self-defence against the firing of bullets by security forces.

As many as 64 people, including children aged eight and nine, have been killed and hundreds of others wounded in the clashes that picked up after the death of a 17-year-old Tufail Mattoo in Rajouri Kadal area of Srinagar June 11.

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## Renegade

From the very fact that the whole of Kashmir has not become ungovernable and law and order has not completely broken down and that the state government remains is control of the state. We can safely say that these sentiments expressed in the article are not subscribed to by the majority of Kashmiri's, had that been he case it would have been utter chaos out there and since it is not so let us not assume the worst.

To ascribe to the majority the views of the minority, might please some of my friends here but that is simply far from the truth. 

BTW, since when did "orange Indian media" become the gospel of truth out here. For i am very sure that in many more threads here it has been nothing but ridiculed. Selective Amnesia anyone??


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## EjazR

BTW if you read the article, all the police officials interviewed are from Srinagar which is a city of almost a million people. Srinagar is a tough city that has probably the strongest pro-independance sentiment. It has only about 8% polling in recent elections. Also out of the 60+ deaths 40+ were from Srinagar. Yasin Malik, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Geelani are also all located in Srinagar.

Moreover all news agencies including foreign ones like AFP e.t.c. are located there as well.


So that is why you see the rural areas relatively quieter than urban areas particularly srinagar.

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## KSRaj

Asim Aquil said:


> These are not stones, but boulders of a long overdue laanat on the tyrants that have subjugated a free people. *I said this months ago, this time Indians won't be able to stop this.*



And you will continue to say this for years and years to come....


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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> Awesome. Nasso nasso, Kashmiri chah gaye.



Nothing new.. Indians to chah hi jaate hain

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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> These are not stones, but boulders of a long overdue laanat on the tyrants that have subjugated a free people. I said this months ago, this time Indians won't be able to stop this.



Asim sir. YOu are a little late... Its already started stopping. I can hear the fat lady sing

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## Spring Onion

EjazR said:


> Atleast this proves that the local J&K police is involved in crowd control duties and NOT the Indian army as is wrongly potrayed.
> 
> The CRPF is also involved which is also a police force. However, they should be removed from civilian areas and brought in only when needed. CRPF is a very ill trained and low paid force and needs to be revamped completed. Sometimes they are sent to do crowd control and other times they are sent to fight naxalites. This is really insanity on the HM's part.



This proves they are Indian puppets and some of them have joined police as they have no other choice to earn bread due to Indian occupation and this also proves that this compulsion did not changed Kashmiriat and will for Independent Kashmir in their hearts as this policeman said if he was NOT in uniform he would have Pelted stones on Indian invader army


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## karan.1970

Jana said:


> This proves they are Indian puppets and some of them have joined police as they have no other choice to earn bread due to Indian occupation and this also proves that this compulsion did not changed Kashmiriat and will for Independent Kashmir in their hearts as this policeman said if he was NOT in uniform he would have Pelted stones on Indian invader army



You are now grasping at straws. Look at it this way... 

1. If my aunt had a mouch, she would be my uncle
2. If I was the prime minister of India, I would have solved the poverty problem 
3. If I wasnt in the Uniform ....

There is only one way this thread can go.. Like countless have gone before this. Niether of us can convince the other. Lets wait for any significant event before going on a kite flying spree..

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## Trac

Paladin said:


> LOL Meri Jan ap kis dunya me hoon?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All Jammu and Kashmir Muslim Conference
> The Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF)
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. Get your facts right mate, anyone can visit or report on AJK
> News at islamgarh mirpur Azad Kashmir. news of Kotli Azad Kashmir, News of Bhimber Azad Kashmir,
> 
> 
> 
> Overseas Kashmiris Cell
> http://www.pmajk.gov.pk/Ok.asp
> 
> They have their own government with it's on information and finance ministry and overseas kashmiri cell.
> 
> Departments
> 
> Investment Opportunities
> 
> Finance Department




Uncle ji only for you from a neutral source and thats the reality whole world know 



Political Rights and Civil Liberties
*
The political rights of the residents of Pakistani-administered Kashmir remain severely limited*. Neither the Northern Areas nor Azad Kashmir has representation in Pakistan's national Parliament. The Northern Areas are directly administered by the Pakistani government under the Legal Framework Order of 1994; *the region is not included in the Pakistani constitution and has no constitution of its own,* meaning there is* no fundamental guarantee of civil rights, democratic representation, or the separation of powers.* *Executive authority is vested in the minister for Kashmir affairs, a civil servant appointed by Islamabad. *A 36-seat Northern Areas Legislative Council (NALC)  of which 24 seats are filled through direct elections and six each are reserved for women and technocrats from each district * serves in an advisory capacity and has no authority to change laws or control revenue. *Elections to the NALC were held in 2004, with independent candidates and representatives of national political parties winning seats. In October 2007, Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf announced a package of reforms that would change the NALC into the Northern Areas Legislative Assembly, devolving fiscal and legislative powers to locally elected politicians. *The package would also allow for the election of a chief executive accountable to the assembly, but it would maintain federal control over the judiciary and the top executive post of "chairman.*" The region would continue to be administered under the Legal Framework Order rather than a constitutional framework like in Azad Kashmir, thus still falling short of compliance with a 1999 Supreme Court ruling on the issue. At year's end, *Pakistan's broader political crisis cast doubt on the future of the proposed reforms.*

*The Pakistani military retains a guiding role on issues of politics and governance.*

In 2007, the political crisis in Pakistan reverberated in Kashmir. Chaudhry Majeed, the PPP president for Azad Kashmir, and other party activists were briefly detained in November following Musharraf's declaration of a state of emergency, with some placed under house arrest for 30 days. *In December, demonstrators clashed with police, burned tires, and blocked roads in antigovernment protests after the assassination of PPP leader and former prime minister Benazir Bhutto, but there were no reported injuries.*

*A lack of official accountability has been identified as a key factor in the poor socioeconomic development of both Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas. Pakistani-controlled Kashmir was not rated separately in Transparency International's 2007 Corruption Perceptions Index.*

*The Pakistani government uses the constitution and other laws to curb freedom of speech on a variety of subjects, including the status of Kashmir and incidents of sectarian violence. In recent years, authorities have banned several local newspapers from publishing and have detained or otherwise harassed Kashmiri journalists. *

*In addition to pressure and threats from the authorities, journalists have been known to face harassment and attacks from nonstate actors, though no such incidents were reported in 2007. During the state of emergency imposed on the rest of Pakistan in November 2007, cable operators in Kashmir were instructed to suspend broadcasts of most national and international news channels.*

*In 2005, several waves of sectarian violence killed almost 100 people and led to a month-long curfew. Sporadic attacks continued to take place during 2006, including the destruction by fire of an Ismaili place of worship, but no violent incidents were reported in 2007.*

Freedoms of association and assembly are restricted. The constitution of Azad Kashmir forbids individuals and political parties from taking part in activities that are prejudicial to the ideology of the state's accession to Pakistan. As such, police in recent years have regularly suppressed antigovernment demonstrations, sometimes violently. In 2005, at least 10 people were killed when police opened fire on Shia student protesters, and lengthy curfews were imposed to prevent demonstrators from assembling. In 2007, police clashed with demonstrators on several occasions, but there were no reports of deaths or lengthy detentions. In October, police baton-charged dozens of people demonstrating against a proposal to move the capital of Azad Kashmir from Muzafarrabad. Three people were arrested but released the same day. In November, police blocked activists of the proindependence APNA who were protesting in favor of truck service across the LOC from entering a town near the ceasefire line as planned.

Nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) are generally able to operate freely. However, the Aga Khan Rural Support Program  run by the Aga Khan Foundation (AKF), an international development organization that focuses on Ismaili communities worldwide  has been subjected to harassment and violence. According to the U.S. State Department's 2007 Report on International Religious Freedom, Sunni extremist groups have in recent years vandalized AKF-funded schools and health clinics and have attacked AKF personnel, although no such attacks were reported in 2007. The situation for labor rights in Pakistani-controlled Kashmir is similar to that in Pakistan.

The judiciary of the Northern Areas consists of district courts, a chief court, and since 2005, a separate court of appeals. With appointments based on three-year contracts subject to discretionary renewal, the judiciary is largely subservient to the executive. Azad Kashmir has its own system of local magistrates and high courts, whose heads are appointed by the president of Azad Kashmir. Appeals are adjudicated by the Supreme Court of Pakistan. There are also Islamic judges who handle criminal cases concerning Islamic law. In April 2007, local lawyers protested the appointment to the Azad Kashmir Supreme Court of Justice Mohammad Reaz Akhtar Chaudhry over the court's most senior judge, Justice Manzoor Hussain Gilani, arguing that it violated constitutional conventions and rules of seniority. The newspaper Dawn reported that the Azad Kashmir Supreme Court rejected a petition by the lawyers challenging the appointment and ordered that future petitions of a similar nature not be entertained by the courts.

According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP), Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) operates throughout Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas and engages in extensive surveillance (particularly of proindependence groups and the press), as well as arbitrary arrests and detentions. In some instances, those detained by the ISI, the police, or the security forces are tortured, and several cases of death in custody have been reported. Impunity for acts of torture and other mistreatment of civilians by the military and intelligence services remains the norm. The territory also continues to be governed by the colonial-era Frontier Crimes Regulations, under which residents are required to report to local police stations once a month.

A number of Islamist militant groups, including al-Qaeda, operate from bases in Pakistani-administered Kashmir with the tacit permission of Pakistani intelligence. Tension between Islamist, pro-Pakistan groups and the proindependence Kashmiri groups  as well as some local residents  has reportedly intensified in recent years. In June 2007, a land dispute broke out between villagers in Azad Kashmir and the Islamist organization Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JUD), identified by the United States as a terrorist organization. Following the alleged torture of two men and the killing of a 17-year-old boy by JUD members, a mob burned down a temporary hospital the group had established following the 2005 earthquake.

Several hundred families displaced by shelling between Indian and Pakistani forces around the LOC prior to the 2003 ceasefire remain unable to return to their homes and have largely been excluded from earthquake-related assistance schemes. In addition, the Azad Kashmir government manages relief camps for refugees from Indian-administered Kashmir, the bulk of whom arrived after the situation on the Indian side worsened in 1989. Many more of the refugees (roughly 1.5 million) live elsewhere in Azad Kashmir and throughout Pakistan.

The status of women in Pakistani-administered Kashmir is similar to that of women in Pakistan. While the HRCP reports that honor killings and **** occur less frequently than in other areas of Pakistan, domestic violence, forced marriage, and other forms of abuse continue to be issues of concern. Women are not granted equal rights under the law, and their educational opportunities and choice of marriage partner remain circumscribed. In May 2007, the United Nations and other aid agencies temporarily suspended their work after suspected Islamists mounted an arson attack on the home of two aid workers; the organizations had received warnings against hiring women.



Men i want to highlight the main part and try to highlight that but all the Information is important so read full article 


*This is the reality of so called AZAD Kashmir *

---------- Post added at 09:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 PM ----------




Paladin said:


> LOL Meri Jan ap kis dunya me hoon?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All Jammu and Kashmir Muslim Conference
> The Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF)
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. Get your facts right mate, anyone can visit or report on AJK
> News at islamgarh mirpur Azad Kashmir. news of Kotli Azad Kashmir, News of Bhimber Azad Kashmir,
> 
> 
> 
> Overseas Kashmiris Cell
> http://www.pmajk.gov.pk/Ok.asp
> 
> They have their own government with it's on information and finance ministry and overseas kashmiri cell.
> 
> Departments
> 
> Investment Opportunities
> 
> Finance Department




Uncle ji only for you from a neutral source and thats the reality whole world know 



Political Rights and Civil Liberties
*
The political rights of the residents of Pakistani-administered Kashmir remain severely limited*. Neither the Northern Areas nor Azad Kashmir has representation in Pakistan's national Parliament. The Northern Areas are directly administered by the Pakistani government under the Legal Framework Order of 1994; *the region is not included in the Pakistani constitution and has no constitution of its own,* meaning there is* no fundamental guarantee of civil rights, democratic representation, or the separation of powers.* *Executive authority is vested in the minister for Kashmir affairs, a civil servant appointed by Islamabad. *A 36-seat Northern Areas Legislative Council (NALC)  of which 24 seats are filled through direct elections and six each are reserved for women and technocrats from each district * serves in an advisory capacity and has no authority to change laws or control revenue. *Elections to the NALC were held in 2004, with independent candidates and representatives of national political parties winning seats. In October 2007, Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf announced a package of reforms that would change the NALC into the Northern Areas Legislative Assembly, devolving fiscal and legislative powers to locally elected politicians. *The package would also allow for the election of a chief executive accountable to the assembly, but it would maintain federal control over the judiciary and the top executive post of "chairman.*" The region would continue to be administered under the Legal Framework Order rather than a constitutional framework like in Azad Kashmir, thus still falling short of compliance with a 1999 Supreme Court ruling on the issue. At year's end, *Pakistan's broader political crisis cast doubt on the future of the proposed reforms.*

*The Pakistani military retains a guiding role on issues of politics and governance.*

In 2007, the political crisis in Pakistan reverberated in Kashmir. Chaudhry Majeed, the PPP president for Azad Kashmir, and other party activists were briefly detained in November following Musharraf's declaration of a state of emergency, with some placed under house arrest for 30 days. *In December, demonstrators clashed with police, burned tires, and blocked roads in antigovernment protests after the assassination of PPP leader and former prime minister Benazir Bhutto, but there were no reported injuries.*

*A lack of official accountability has been identified as a key factor in the poor socioeconomic development of both Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas. Pakistani-controlled Kashmir was not rated separately in Transparency International's 2007 Corruption Perceptions Index.*

*The Pakistani government uses the constitution and other laws to curb freedom of speech on a variety of subjects, including the status of Kashmir and incidents of sectarian violence. In recent years, authorities have banned several local newspapers from publishing and have detained or otherwise harassed Kashmiri journalists. *

*In addition to pressure and threats from the authorities, journalists have been known to face harassment and attacks from nonstate actors, though no such incidents were reported in 2007. During the state of emergency imposed on the rest of Pakistan in November 2007, cable operators in Kashmir were instructed to suspend broadcasts of most national and international news channels.*

*In 2005, several waves of sectarian violence killed almost 100 people and led to a month-long curfew. Sporadic attacks continued to take place during 2006, including the destruction by fire of an Ismaili place of worship, but no violent incidents were reported in 2007.*

Freedoms of association and assembly are restricted. The constitution of Azad Kashmir forbids individuals and political parties from taking part in activities that are prejudicial to the ideology of the state's accession to Pakistan. As such, police in recent years have regularly suppressed antigovernment demonstrations, sometimes violently. In 2005, at least 10 people were killed when police opened fire on Shia student protesters, and lengthy curfews were imposed to prevent demonstrators from assembling. In 2007, police clashed with demonstrators on several occasions, but there were no reports of deaths or lengthy detentions. In October, police baton-charged dozens of people demonstrating against a proposal to move the capital of Azad Kashmir from Muzafarrabad. Three people were arrested but released the same day. In November, police blocked activists of the proindependence APNA who were protesting in favor of truck service across the LOC from entering a town near the ceasefire line as planned.

Nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) are generally able to operate freely. However, the Aga Khan Rural Support Program  run by the Aga Khan Foundation (AKF), an international development organization that focuses on Ismaili communities worldwide  has been subjected to harassment and violence. According to the U.S. State Department's 2007 Report on International Religious Freedom, Sunni extremist groups have in recent years vandalized AKF-funded schools and health clinics and have attacked AKF personnel, although no such attacks were reported in 2007. The situation for labor rights in Pakistani-controlled Kashmir is similar to that in Pakistan.

The judiciary of the Northern Areas consists of district courts, a chief court, and since 2005, a separate court of appeals. With appointments based on three-year contracts subject to discretionary renewal, the judiciary is largely subservient to the executive. Azad Kashmir has its own system of local magistrates and high courts, whose heads are appointed by the president of Azad Kashmir. Appeals are adjudicated by the Supreme Court of Pakistan. There are also Islamic judges who handle criminal cases concerning Islamic law. In April 2007, local lawyers protested the appointment to the Azad Kashmir Supreme Court of Justice Mohammad Reaz Akhtar Chaudhry over the court's most senior judge, Justice Manzoor Hussain Gilani, arguing that it violated constitutional conventions and rules of seniority. The newspaper Dawn reported that the Azad Kashmir Supreme Court rejected a petition by the lawyers challenging the appointment and ordered that future petitions of a similar nature not be entertained by the courts.

According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP), Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) operates throughout Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas and engages in extensive surveillance (particularly of proindependence groups and the press), as well as arbitrary arrests and detentions. In some instances, those detained by the ISI, the police, or the security forces are tortured, and several cases of death in custody have been reported. Impunity for acts of torture and other mistreatment of civilians by the military and intelligence services remains the norm. The territory also continues to be governed by the colonial-era Frontier Crimes Regulations, under which residents are required to report to local police stations once a month.

A number of Islamist militant groups, including al-Qaeda, operate from bases in Pakistani-administered Kashmir with the tacit permission of Pakistani intelligence. Tension between Islamist, pro-Pakistan groups and the proindependence Kashmiri groups  as well as some local residents  has reportedly intensified in recent years. In June 2007, a land dispute broke out between villagers in Azad Kashmir and the Islamist organization Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JUD), identified by the United States as a terrorist organization. Following the alleged torture of two men and the killing of a 17-year-old boy by JUD members, a mob burned down a temporary hospital the group had established following the 2005 earthquake.

Several hundred families displaced by shelling between Indian and Pakistani forces around the LOC prior to the 2003 ceasefire remain unable to return to their homes and have largely been excluded from earthquake-related assistance schemes. In addition, the Azad Kashmir government manages relief camps for refugees from Indian-administered Kashmir, the bulk of whom arrived after the situation on the Indian side worsened in 1989. Many more of the refugees (roughly 1.5 million) live elsewhere in Azad Kashmir and throughout Pakistan.

The status of women in Pakistani-administered Kashmir is similar to that of women in Pakistan. While the HRCP reports that honor killings and **** occur less frequently than in other areas of Pakistan, domestic violence, forced marriage, and other forms of abuse continue to be issues of concern. Women are not granted equal rights under the law, and their educational opportunities and choice of marriage partner remain circumscribed. In May 2007, the United Nations and other aid agencies temporarily suspended their work after suspected Islamists mounted an arson attack on the home of two aid workers; the organizations had received warnings against hiring women.



Men i want to highlight the main part and try to highlight that but all the Information is important so read full article 

UNHCR | Refworld | Freedom in the World 2008 - Kashmir [Pakistan]


*This is the reality of so called AZAD Kashmir *

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## TextMiner

Asim Aquil said:


> These are not stones, but boulders of a long overdue laanat on the tyrants that have subjugated a free people. I said this months ago, this time Indians won't be able to stop this.


This reminds me of a poem that i read quite some time ago ; Sounds how eerily similar is GoI facing a similar test of character in the "path of democracy" ; Go thorugh *this* link to read the poem. Am posting it for our Readers' pleasure too.


> *A Rock in the Road*
> 
> The path of life seemed straight
> Then suddenly
> A curve. A bump. A dip. A challenge
> A rock
> Or is it a boulder?
> 
> An opportunity to learn. A test of character
> Something to make me appreciate
> the flat spots in the road
> 
> Confusion. Disillusion.
> Resentment. Disappointment.
> Trials. Troubles
> Why is life so hard?
> 
> Tears. Sadness
> Why do I feel down?
> 
> A glimmer of hope. A glimpse around the rock
> The other side faintly visible
> An encouragement nonetheless
> 
> Strength. Character.
> A breath of fresh air
> Deep nourishment to the soul
> 
> Inspiration. Stamina.
> The will to press on
> To never give up
> 
> Be patient. Be gentle.
> In the end It will all work out
> 
> The boulder in the road is moving
> Inch by inch, atom by atom
> But moving nonetheless
> 
> Soon it will fade away
> Into history behind us
> The insurmountable becoming mountable
> The obstacle a lesson learned
> The bouldera tiny pebble


Sometimes, the pebble in our shoes give us more trouble than the boulders on the road ; The simple course of action to remedy this is remove the pebbles, not throw away the shoes. Similarly, all prudence dictates is to solve the problems of the Kashmiris (viz. Unemployment, Corruption, Under-development etc ), and not ignore the voices of the Kashmiris. Then all this mumbo-jumbo of Aazadi would automatically meet its demise.


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## EjazR

^^^^I think that shows us something

While there is presece of local and international media in the Kashmir valley

There seems to be no coverage of any happenigs of Gilgit or Kashmir regions in Pakistan. Interestingly the CMof gilgit is a retd Maj General.

The bouts of anti-shia violence is one of the reasons why the mostly shia populace of Kargil is pro-India. That doesn't mean that they love India ofcourse but they feel that out of the two the better option is India. GoI has a long way to go before proper governance and development can be setup in J&K to really integrate it with the country.

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## Renegade

civfanatic said:


> Her son is here in kashmir and shares every joy and sorrow with other Kashmiris .



He was not given a passport so remains struck. Clearly his mother wanted him go out and study and other Kasmiris kids to give up their education and pelt stones but sadly it didn't work out for her. 

One set of rules for others and another set for her own kids!!


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Renegade said:


> He was not given a passport so remains struck. Clearly his mother wanted him go out and study and other Kasmiris kids to give up their education and pelt stones but sadly it didn't work out for her.
> 
> One set of rules for others and another set for her own kids!!



On the other hand ..*I think GOI should have given him a passport..and allowed him to go to Malaysia*..that way at least her hypocrisy would have been exposed..all the Kashmiri youth., she instigated in stone throwing..would have stone her instead.


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## EjazR

Jana said:


> This proves they are Indian puppets and some of them have joined police as they have no other choice to earn bread due to Indian occupation and this also proves that this compulsion did not changed Kashmiriat and will for Independent Kashmir in their hearts as this policeman said if he was NOT in uniform he would have Pelted stones on Indian invader army



But Jana, will you agree that there are no Indian Army opressing KAshmiris? And that it is the local J&K police involved?
That is all I said.

There was a time in the early 90s when there was not a single J&K police was availble. Local police had either run away because of being targeted by militants or joined the militants themselves. There were people from Jammu and Leh including Hindus as part of the sepratists militant groups like JKLF. Things have come a long way since.

The situation only turned ugly this year because of the shutdowns being enforced by sepratists by threatening them or otherwise. And The unnecessary use of excessive force primarily by the CRPF aggraveted the situation.

So if more J&K police were availble and CRPF was sitting in its barracks, the situation would not have turned as ugly as it did. Regardless of what people say, the sepratists had become irreleavant. This event has only "revived" them thanks to the incompetent way things were handled.


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## Spring Onion

Lolz hardline woman ?? The Orange media first should learn what does Hardline mean. 

She is not from Saffron brigade.

and whats the bravest thing the Indian army did in this case? The state of India in Occupied Kashmir had been arresting Kashmiri leaders since decades.

*Mod Edit: Plz do not generalize, keep the statements to the Occupying SF of India in Occupied Kashmir Only not rest of Indian SF, and do not think of this forum as BR to use Terrorist State kind of words*


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## do_more

I need a clarification, what will happen when a woman dies in jihad and go to haven.

What will she get?


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## karan.1970

^ She is more useful alive..


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## peacekeeper

do_more said:


> ok. I don\'t understand why Indian security forces arresting her. .



Her husband is in jail may be that is why she is arrested 

That is a good move she was not allowing schools to open and giving hate speeches


----------



## gubbi

Jana said:


> Lolz hardline woman ?? The Orange media first should learn what does Hardline mean.
> 
> She is not from Saffron brigade.
> 
> and whats the bravest thing the *terrorist Indian army* did in this case? The *terrorist state of India* in Occupied Kashmir had been arresting Kashmiri leaders since decades.



Generalizations again! What a block head!

In the same vein, then what is the bravest thing that PA has achieved, ever!? There have been reports and evidences that PA and ISI have in the past created and supported terrorist groups in Kashmir and Afghanistan, not to mention some amount of support to AQ! There are reports (Wikileaks) that Pakistani authorities still do. So can we now call Pakistan as the terrorist state of Pakistan?

Apologize and retract you statement or we all will start doing that! Seriously, whats the worst that will happen? Saner voices will disappear from this forum.

@Mods: Delete that offensive post or we all will start addressing Pakistan in the same way and not without reason.

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## Ganga

While the world focuses on the flood-ravaged Indus River valley, a quiet geopolitical crisis is unfolding in the Himalayan borderlands of northern Pakistan, where Islamabad is handing over de facto control of the strategic Gilgit-Baltistan region in the northwest corner of disputed Kashmir to China.

*The entire western portion of Kashmir stretching from Gilgit in the north to Azad (Free) Kashmir in the south is closed to the world, in contrast to the media access that India permits in the eastern part, where it is combating a Pakistan-backed insurgency.* *But reports from a variety of foreign intelligence sources, Pakistani journalists and Pakistani human rights workers reveal two important new developments in Gilgit-Baltistan: a simmering rebellion against Pakistani rule and the influx of an estimated 7,000 to 11,000 soldiers of the Peoples Liberation Army.*

China wants a grip on the region to assure unfettered road and rail access to the Gulf through Pakistan. It takes 16 to 25 days for Chinese oil tankers to reach the Gulf. When high-speed rail and road links through Gilgit and Baltistan are completed, China will be able to transport cargo from Eastern China to the new Chinese-built Pakistani naval bases at Gwadar, Pasni and Ormara, just east of the Gulf, within 48 hours.

Many of the P.L.A. soldiers entering Gilgit-Baltistan are expected to work on the railroad. Some are extending the Karakoram Highway, built to link Chinas Sinkiang Province with Pakistan. Others are working on dams, expressways and other projects.

Mystery surrounds the construction of 22 tunnels in secret locations where Pakistanis are barred. Tunnels would be necessary for a projected gas pipeline from Iran to China that would cross the Himalayas through Gilgit. But they could also be used for missile storage sites.

Until recently, the P.L.A. construction crews lived in temporary encampments and went home after completing their assignments. Now they are building big residential enclaves clearly designed for a long-term presence.

What is happening in the region matters to Washington for two reasons. Coupled with its support for the Taliban, Islamabads collusion in facilitating Chinas access to the Gulf makes clear that Pakistan is not a U.S. ally. *Equally important, the nascent revolt in the Gilgit-Baltistan region is a reminder that Kashmiri demands for autonomy on both sides of the cease-fire line would have to be addressed in a settlement.
**
Media attention has exposed the repression of the insurgency in the Indian-ruled Kashmir Valley. But if reporters could get into the Gilgit-Baltistan region and Azad Kashmir, they would find widespread, brutally-suppressed local movements for democratic rights and regional autonomy.
*
*When the British partitioned South Asia in 1947, the maharajah who ruled Kashmir, including Gilgit and Baltistan, acceded to India. This set off intermittent conflict that ended with Indian control of the Kashmir Valley, the establishment of Pakistan-sponsored Free Kashmir in western Kashmir, and Pakistans occupation of Gilgit and Baltistan, where Sunni jihadi groups allied with the Pakistan Army have systematically terrorized the local Shiite Muslims.*

*Gilgit and Baltistan are in effect under military rule. Democratic activists there want a legislature and other institutions without restrictions like the ones imposed on Free Kashmir, where the elected legislature controls only 4 out of 56 subjects covered in the state constitution. The rest are under the jurisdiction of a Kashmir Council appointed by the president of Pakistan.
*
I*ndia gives more power to the state government in Srinagar; elections there are widely regarded as fair, and open discussion of demands for autonomy is permitted. *But the Pakistan-abetted insurgency in the Kashmir Valley has added to tensions between Indian occupation forces and an assertive population seeking greater of local autonomy.

The United States is uniquely situated to play a moderating role in Kashmir, given its growing economic and military ties with India and Pakistans aid dependence on Washington. Such a role should be limited to quiet diplomacy. Washington should press New Delhi to resume autonomy negotiations with Kashmiri separatists. Success would put pressure on Islamabad for comparable concessions in Free Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan. In Pakistan, Washington should focus on getting Islamabad to stop aiding the insurgency in the Kashmir Valley and to give New Delhi a formal commitment that it will not annex Gilgit and Baltistan.

Precisely because the Gilgit-Baltistan region is so important to China, the United States, India and Pakistan should work together to make sure that it is not overwhelmed, like Tibet, by the Chinese behemoth.

Selig S. Harrison is director of the Asia Program at the Center for International Policy and a former South Asia bureau chief of The Washington Post. 
The New York Times > Log In


----------



## SpArK

*Azad Kashmir today*
By Ahmad Faruqui 








Azad Kashmir was created within two months of Pakistan&#8217;s independence with high expectations. Nestled in the mountainous western region that abuts the vale of Kashmir, it forms an archer&#8217;s bow that is about 100 miles long and about 20-40 miles wide. 

*The Pakistani security elite hoped that an arrow fired from the bow would bring about the instant liberation of the vale of Kashmir from Indian occupation. The first arrow was fired almost within days of creation. *

It plunged the entire region of Kashmir into armed conflict. Fourteen months later, a ceasefire sponsored by the United Nations took effect on Jan 1, 1949. The ceasefire line remained stationary despite several attempts to move it. But after the 1971 war which saw the secession of East Pakistan, it was renamed the Line-of-Control (LoC). That militaristic designation persists to this day since the line which separates the two Kashmirs has not been formalised as an international border. 

*&#8216;Azad&#8217; means free and Azad Kashmir was supposed to serve as a model state whose liberty and freedom would inspire rebellion in Indian-administered Kashmir. That did not happen for several reasons. Constitutionally, Azad Kashmir is not a part of Pakistan. But neither is it an independent state. For its entire 62-year history, it has depended on Pakistan for its economic and political survival. It does not even issue its own postage stamps. 
*
Because Islamabad has always exercised its claim on the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir, Azad Kashmir is not counted as a fifth province of Pakistan. But for all practical purposes, Muzaffarabad lives under Islamabad&#8217;s shadow. Its first government was established on Oct 24, 1947 with Sardar Mohammed Ibrahim as president. On Nov 3, 1947, Azad Kashmir sought unsuccessfully to join the United Nations as a member state. 

In March 1949, after the dust had settled along the ceasefire line, Azad Kashmir signed a power-sharing arrangement with the Government of Pakistan ceding all authority related to defence, foreign affairs, refugees and the plebiscite to Pakistan. 

Pakistan created a Ministry for Kashmir Affairs to look after its newest asset. However, as events would show, the ministry was soon preoccupied with influencing political direction in Azad Kashmir. Not surprisingly, the ministry&#8217;s directives were not always well received by Azad Kashmiris. At times, they were met with stiff resistance. 

In 1955, Pakistan declared martial law in some parts of Azad Kashmir to suppress street violence triggered by the Kashmir Act. In 1957, Pakistan resorted to police action to quell a public meeting that was seeking direct action to create a united and liberated Kashmir. In 1961, President Ayub Khan carried out indirect elections in Azad Kashmir through a Basic Democracies Ordinance which legally only applied to Pakistan, further straining ties with the Azad Kashmiris. 

Subsequently, faced with Islamabad&#8217;s dominance in their day-to-day affairs, several Azad Kashmiri leaders started a movement for liberating Indian-held Kashmir not for Pakistan but for creating a separate Kashmiri state. This further aggravated ties with Pakistan. While all this was happening, Jammu and Kashmir was inducted into the Indian union. 

In 1965, the Pakistani army launched a covert war inside Indian Kashmir seeking to instigate a popular rebellion. This arrow too missed its target. Instead, it enraged India which launched a strong counter-offensive along the international border with West Pakistan. 

Under the weight of the Indian elephant, the Pakistani military hastily called of its operations in Kashmir. The war ended in an UN-brokered ceasefire along the international border with minimal changes in the Kashmiri line. After the war, Pakistan lost its urge to light a fire across the Line of Control (LoC). Matters changed in 1979 when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan and the Pakistani military, with US and Saudi assistance, began training legions of Mujahideen to evict the godless communists. 

After a bruised and battered Red Army pulled out of Kabul in 1989, Indian Jammu and Kashmir found itself in the grip of a large-scale revolt. Whether this was a purely indigenous movement or a corollary to events in Kabul continues to enrich scholarly volumes. 

Regardless of the cause, the uprising in the vale provided the Kashmir hawks in Pakistan&#8217;s security elite yet another opportunity to press on with their objective. They reactivated their bases in Azad Kashmir and once again decided to fire arrows into Indian Jammu and Kashmir. Soon, &#8216;freedom fighters,&#8217; armed and trained allegedly by the Pakistan Army, were rolling across in droves across the LoC. 

Azad Kashmir was again in the cross-hairs of armed conflict. Against this backdrop, Pakistan under Gen Ziaul Haq decided to legally separate the geographically much larger Northern Areas of Gilgit and Baltistan from Azad Kashmir. This caused almost as much consternation in the latter as it did in India. The separation of the Northern Areas by Pakistan eliminated all doubts about the sovereignty of Azad Kashmir. With the reactivation of conflict across the Line-of-Control, the quality of life of the Azad Kashmiris was trammelled. Those who did not want to take part in the proxy war became pariahs. 

Most of the cross-border infiltration was halted in the wake of 9/11 and the US invasion of Afghanistan. The attack on the Indian parliament in December 2001 was designed to reinvigorate the Kashmir issue but all it did was bring India and Pakistan to the brink of full-scale war in 2002. For a while the Musharraf regime sought to differentiate the struggle for freedom in Kashmir from political acts of terror but its spin failed to gain traction with the world community. Cross-border terrorism was quiet for several years. 

The attacks on Mumbai by a group linked to militant activities in Kashmir in November 2008 were an attempt to reignite the conflict but succeeded only in drawing widespread opprobrium. During the past 62 years, the people of Azad Kashmir have been unable to arise out of poverty in large measure because they are caught in the crossfire between India and Pakistan. The land which their elders knew as a mountain paradise has been turned into a living hell. 

*Of the four million people who inhabit the region, nine of 10 live in extremely impoverished conditions in rural areas. Population growth is excessive, at 2.4 per cent per year, and the average house holds no fewer than seven people. Sadly, Azad Kashmir&#8217;s future is as murky today as it was in 1947. And the objective for its creation, the liberation of the vale of Kashmir, seems increasingly remote.

*
DAWN.COM | Editorial | Azad Kashmir today


----------



## Trac

Political Rights and Civil Liberties

The political rights of the residents of Pakistani-administered Kashmir remain severely limited. Neither the Northern Areas nor Azad Kashmir has representation in Pakistan's national Parliament. The Northern Areas are directly administered by the Pakistani government under the Legal Framework Order of 1994; the region is not included in the Pakistani constitution and has no constitution of its own, meaning there is no fundamental guarantee of civil rights, democratic representation, or the separation of powers. Executive authority is vested in the minister for Kashmir affairs, a civil servant appointed by Islamabad. A 36-seat Northern Areas Legislative Council (NALC)  of which 24 seats are filled through direct elections and six each are reserved for women and technocrats from each district  serves in an advisory capacity and has no authority to change laws or control revenue. Elections to the NALC were held in 2004, with independent candidates and representatives of national political parties winning seats. In October 2007, Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf announced a package of reforms that would change the NALC into the Northern Areas Legislative Assembly, devolving fiscal and legislative powers to locally elected politicians. The package would also allow for the election of a chief executive accountable to the assembly, but it would maintain federal control over the judiciary and the top executive post of "chairman." The region would continue to be administered under the Legal Framework Order rather than a constitutional framework like in Azad Kashmir, thus still falling short of compliance with a 1999 Supreme Court ruling on the issue. At year's end, Pakistan's broader political crisis cast doubt on the future of the proposed reforms.

Azad Kashmir has an interim constitution, an elected unicameral assembly, a prime minister, and a president who is elected by the legislative assembly. Both the president and the assembly serve five-year terms. Of the 49 assembly seats, 41 are filled through direct elections and eight are reserved seats (five for women and one each for representatives of overseas Kashmiris, technocrats, and religious leaders). However, Pakistan exercises considerable control over the structures of government and electoral politics. Islamabad's approval is required to pass legislation, and the minister for Kashmir affairs handles the daily administration of the state and controls the budget. The Pakistani military retains a guiding role on issues of politics and governance.

As detailed by Human Rights Watch (HRW) in a 2006 report on the region, individuals and political parties who do not support Kashmir's accession to Pakistan are barred from participating in the political process, standing for election, taking a job with any government institution, or accessing educational institutions. At least 60 proindependence candidates who belonged to the JKLF, the APNA, and smaller political parties were barred from participating in the July 2006 Azad Kashmir legislative assembly elections. Overall, HRW noted that the election process was flawed and "greeted with widespread charges of poll rigging by opposition political parties and independent analysts." However, unlike the 2001 elections, the polls featured few instances of physical violence and harassment  aside from threats  against candidates or their supporters, possibly because of the greater international presence in the wake of the earthquake. In general, antiaccession parties and individuals are subject to surveillance, harassment, and sometimes imprisonment by Pakistani intelligence and security services.

In 2007, the political crisis in Pakistan reverberated in Kashmir. Chaudhry Majeed, the PPP president for Azad Kashmir, and other party activists were briefly detained in November following Musharraf's declaration of a state of emergency, with some placed under house arrest for 30 days. In December, demonstrators clashed with police, burned tires, and blocked roads in antigovernment protests after the assassination of PPP leader and former prime minister Benazir Bhutto, but there were no reported injuries.

Azad Kashmir receives a large amount of financial aid from the Pakistani government, especially following the 2005 earthquake, but successive administrations have been tainted by corruption and incompetence. A lack of official accountability has been identified as a key factor in the poor socioeconomic development of both Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas. Pakistani-controlled Kashmir was not rated separately in Transparency International's 2007 Corruption Perceptions Index.

The Pakistani government uses the constitution and other laws to curb freedom of speech on a variety of subjects, including the status of Kashmir and incidents of sectarian violence. In recent years, authorities have banned several local newspapers from publishing and have detained or otherwise harassed Kashmiri journalists. In March 2007, the government suspended its advertisements in publications by the Dawn English-language media group after it reported on a possible resurgence of official support for militants in Kashmir. In April 2007, Dawn reported that the editor and publisher of the banned monthly Kargil International magazine were indicted on sedition and defamation charges for publishing a proindependence article in 2004. In addition to pressure and threats from the authorities, journalists have been known to face harassment and attacks from nonstate actors, though no such incidents were reported in 2007. During the state of emergency imposed on the rest of Pakistan in November 2007, cable operators in Kashmir were instructed to suspend broadcasts of most national and international news channels.

Internet access is not usually restricted but remains confined to urban centers. Deliberately limited telephone and mobile phone access has been expanded in the wake of the 2005 earthquake. The presence of foreign media and aid organizations has also helped to partially open up a tightly controlled information environment. Books that do not adequately adhere to a proaccession stance are regularly banned, according to HRW.

Pakistan is an Islamic republic, and there are numerous restrictions on religious freedom. Religious minorities also face unofficial economic and societal discrimination and are occasionally subject to violent attack. Shia Muslims, who form the majority of the population in the Northern Areas, include a large number of Ismailis, a group that follows the Aga Khan. Sectarian strife between Shiites and the increasing number of Sunni Muslims (many of whom are migrants from elsewhere in Pakistan) first became a concern in 1988 and continues to be a problem. In 2005, several waves of sectarian violence killed almost 100 people and led to a month-long curfew. Sporadic attacks continued to take place during 2006, including the destruction by fire of an Ismaili place of worship, but no violent incidents were reported in 2007.

Freedoms of association and assembly are restricted. The constitution of Azad Kashmir forbids individuals and political parties from taking part in activities that are prejudicial to the ideology of the state's accession to Pakistan. As such, police in recent years have regularly suppressed antigovernment demonstrations, sometimes violently. In 2005, at least 10 people were killed when police opened fire on Shia student protesters, and lengthy curfews were imposed to prevent demonstrators from assembling. In 2007, police clashed with demonstrators on several occasions, but there were no reports of deaths or lengthy detentions. In October, police baton-charged dozens of people demonstrating against a proposal to move the capital of Azad Kashmir from Muzafarrabad. Three people were arrested but released the same day. In November, police blocked activists of the proindependence APNA who were protesting in favor of truck service across the LOC from entering a town near the ceasefire line as planned.

Nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) are generally able to operate freely. However, the Aga Khan Rural Support Program  run by the Aga Khan Foundation (AKF), an international development organization that focuses on Ismaili communities worldwide  has been subjected to harassment and violence. According to the U.S. State Department's 2007 Report on International Religious Freedom, Sunni extremist groups have in recent years vandalized AKF-funded schools and health clinics and have attacked AKF personnel, although no such attacks were reported in 2007. The situation for labor rights in Pakistani-controlled Kashmir is similar to that in Pakistan.

The judiciary of the Northern Areas consists of district courts, a chief court, and since 2005, a separate court of appeals. With appointments based on three-year contracts subject to discretionary renewal, the judiciary is largely subservient to the executive. Azad Kashmir has its own system of local magistrates and high courts, whose heads are appointed by the president of Azad Kashmir. Appeals are adjudicated by the Supreme Court of Pakistan. There are also Islamic judges who handle criminal cases concerning Islamic law. In April 2007, local lawyers protested the appointment to the Azad Kashmir Supreme Court of Justice Mohammad Reaz Akhtar Chaudhry over the court's most senior judge, Justice Manzoor Hussain Gilani, arguing that it violated constitutional conventions and rules of seniority. The newspaper Dawn reported that the Azad Kashmir Supreme Court rejected a petition by the lawyers challenging the appointment and ordered that future petitions of a similar nature not be entertained by the courts.

According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP), Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) operates throughout Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas and engages in extensive surveillance (particularly of proindependence groups and the press), as well as arbitrary arrests and detentions. In some instances, those detained by the ISI, the police, or the security forces are tortured, and several cases of death in custody have been reported. Impunity for acts of torture and other mistreatment of civilians by the military and intelligence services remains the norm. The territory also continues to be governed by the colonial-era Frontier Crimes Regulations, under which residents are required to report to local police stations once a month.

A number of Islamist militant groups, including al-Qaeda, operate from bases in Pakistani-administered Kashmir with the tacit permission of Pakistani intelligence. Tension between Islamist, pro-Pakistan groups and the proindependence Kashmiri groups  as well as some local residents  has reportedly intensified in recent years. In June 2007, a land dispute broke out between villagers in Azad Kashmir and the Islamist organization Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JUD), identified by the United States as a terrorist organization. Following the alleged torture of two men and the killing of a 17-year-old boy by JUD members, a mob burned down a temporary hospital the group had established following the 2005 earthquake.

Several hundred families displaced by shelling between Indian and Pakistani forces around the LOC prior to the 2003 ceasefire remain unable to return to their homes and have largely been excluded from earthquake-related assistance schemes. In addition, the Azad Kashmir government manages relief camps for refugees from Indian-administered Kashmir, the bulk of whom arrived after the situation on the Indian side worsened in 1989. Many more of the refugees (roughly 1.5 million) live elsewhere in Azad Kashmir and throughout Pakistan.

The status of women in Pakistani-administered Kashmir is similar to that of women in Pakistan. While the HRCP reports that honor killings and **** occur less frequently than in other areas of Pakistan, domestic violence, forced marriage, and other forms of abuse continue to be issues of concern. Women are not granted equal rights under the law, and their educational opportunities and choice of marriage partner remain circumscribed. In May 2007, the United Nations and other aid agencies temporarily suspended their work after suspected Islamists mounted an arson attack on the home of two aid workers; the organizations had received warnings against hiring women.


UNHCR | Refworld | Freedom in the World 2008 - Kashmir [Pakistan]



*This is the reality of so called Azad Kashmir *

*Please read it fully *


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## Huda

and what is the reality of AZAD PAKISTAN


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## Abu Zolfiqar

how are kashmiris reacting so far


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## Mogambo

karan.1970 said:


> Hardline woman separatist leader Asiya Andrabi arrested in Srinagar - India - The Times of India
> 
> For these protests, I Hear the fat lady singing..
> ============================================
> SRINAGAR: Hardline woman separatist leader Asiya Andrabi, believed to be one of the masterminds of the current unrest in the Kashmir Valley, was arrested from a hideout here on Saturday, police said.
> 
> Andrabi was arrested from Zakura on the city outskirts, a police officer told IANS.
> 
> The chief of the women's separatist outfit Dukhtaran-e-Millat, Andrabi was issuing shutdown calendars through emails to the media and was one of the brains behind the turmoil in the valley, police said.
> 
> The 50-year-old Andrabi, a staunch votary of Jammu and Kashmir's merger with Pakistan, had been asking Kashmiris to observe shutdowns, close down businesses and schools and participate in protest demonstrations.
> 
> She had been in hiding for the last three months.
> 
> ============================================



why govt. is making them hero ???? 

just tackle her and her son covertly. There are accidents happen all over the world car crash to gas cylinder blast to electric shock to fire.

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## IBRIS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> how are kashmiris reacting so far



They'r happy to open up shop again. Business owners are defending there own streets against trouble makers. Local police lines are busy getting all updates from locals who are tired of this unrest


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## jha

Mogambo said:


> why govt. is making them hero ????
> 
> just tackle her and her son covertly. There are accidents happen all over the world car crash to gas cylinder blast to electric shock to fire.



Totally agree...I am ready to donate my own cars ( and gas cylinders if necessary ) for the noble cause...

All who agree ..press the button in the bottom right corner

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## Moorkh

Mogambo said:


> why govt. is making them hero ????
> 
> just tackle her and her son covertly. There are accidents happen all over the world car crash to gas cylinder blast to electric shock to fire.


only authoritative regimes act in such underhanded ways. such ways allow for a lot of abuse of power. something we surely dont want. a public arrest was indeed the best way to go about it.


BTW what are the charges against her?


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## BATMAN

Swift said:


> She is the same lady who was trying to get a passport for her son to send him abroad for higher studies, away fro this turmoil recently.




Why should she not be allowed to have passport for her son?
Just because he is a Muslim?
What if he wish to go for Hajj? 
It is about time that Muslims in India should fight for a separate home land, if state refuse them their basic rights and no religious freedom.


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## do_more

BATMAN said:


> Why should she not be allowed to have passport for her son?
> Just because he is a Muslim?
> What if he wish to go for Hajj?
> It is about time that Muslims in India should fight for a separate home land, if state refuse them their basic rights and no religious freedom.



Why are you not questioning saudi arabia, why muslim needs a passport for doing hajj. after all every muslim belongs to umaha

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## peacekeeper

BATMAN said:


> Why should she not be allowed to have passport for her son?
> Just because he is a Muslim?
> What if he wish to go for Hajj?
> It is about time that Muslims in India should fight for a separate home land, if state refuse them their basic rights and no religious freedom.




He was denied a passport not because he is muslim but because his mother is involved in anti-state activity
she is also asking for closure of school and colleges in the valley & asking youth to take part in anti government protest, because of this education of many kashmiri children are being hindered 
and then asking for education of her son
she is a damn HYPOCRITE


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## Fireurimagination

No schooling/working for girl child, 100&#37; purdah, Shariah etc etc, she is the one, what else can one expect? I hope the authorities make her stay real memorable  reports state that she has been arrested under public security act that means no bail, no court, no sunlight for 3 years


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## karan.1970

BATMAN said:


> Why should she not be allowed to have passport for her son?
> Just because he is a Muslim?
> What if he wish to go for Hajj?
> It is about time that Muslims in India should fight for a separate home land, if state refuse them their basic rights and no religious freedom.



In India (and most other countries of the world), a clean police record is necessary for obtaining a passport. In case of dependent children, police record of the parents come into play.. In this case the result is obvious.

btw, there are 170 million muslims in India. Almost the same number as in Pakistan. A large percentage of them have passports..

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## Areesh

EjazR said:


> ^^^^I think that shows us something
> 
> While there is presece of local and international media in the Kashmir valley
> 
> There seems to be no coverage of any happenigs of Gilgit or Kashmir regions in Pakistan. Interestingly the CMof gilgit is a retd Maj General.
> 
> The bouts of anti-shia violence is one of the reasons why the mostly shia populace of Kargil is pro-India. That doesn't mean that they love India ofcourse but they feel that out of the two the better option is India. GoI has a long way to go before proper governance and development can be setup in J&K to really integrate it with the country.



Leaving the pro India shia population of Kargil and other propaganda aside I think it is necessary to mention that CM of GB is also a shia.


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## pak-marine

there is been always unrest in gilgit and baltistan from long time , there are aga khanis as well this could be a war btw aga khanis and shia or shia- sunni ..


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## TaimiKhan

kattu-mian said:


> From 60 yrs you guys have tormented India in some form or other.Now the chicks are coming home to roost. Your country in disintegrating and there is nothing you can do about it. You guys are playing a very dangerous game by double playing both United States and China.There is not a speck of favorism for pakistanis around the world.
> 
> India as a whole ( ie, the majority of the populace) has never taken the time from their daily routine to look into the stupid atrocities of the pakistanis and the chinese.But slowly and surely it is changing and now,even the comman man is able to understand,what the evil intention of both our neighbours are due to media.
> 
> Now that the world biggest Democracy is rising you will see and feel its force in the times to come.
> 
> Indian's are not stupid.Its just that they have not given a serious thought on this issue until now. The tides have turned,watch your back.
> 
> jai ho



Wow kattu-mian gone moun mian mithoooo, green wala


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## Spring Onion

EjazR said:


> ^^^^I think that shows us something
> 
> 
> There seems to be no coverage of any happenigs of Gilgit or Kashmir regions in Pakistan. .



 Oh when did India buy Dawn. Damn thats why you posted this write up from an Indian source.


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## Spring Onion

TaimiKhan said:


> Wow kattu-mian gone moun mian mithoooo, green wala



Kukru kurun kattu mian tuunnnnnnnnnn


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## SEAL

Violence in Gilgit started after we gave status of province to Gilgit now we can link our railway and motorways with China and its definitely a pain in Indians ***.  No country in the world including Israel supporting India on Kashmir issue. 

Just imagine Motorways and high speed railways connecting Pakistan (Gilgit area) and China there will be no violence economic activity worth billions of dollas.

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## kattu-mian

r3alist said:


> hindu's (as in the writer of the article) love talking about kashmir as if they understand the people and region
> 
> pakistanis have blood ties to kashmir
> 
> there is the difference.





The blood of your ancestors was of hindu one

Rajatarangini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## kattu-mian

fox said:


> Violence in Gilgit started after we gave status of province to Gilgit now we can link our railway and motorways with China and its definitely a pain in Indians ***.  No country in the world including Israel supporting India on Kashmir issue.
> 
> Just imagine Motorways and high speed railways connecting Pakistan (Gilgit area) and China there will be no violence economic activity worth billions of dollas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :



First think of the Infra-structure of the whole country devastated by the floods IMVHO


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## EjazR

Areesh said:


> We know about our history dear. I am a so called Mohajir myself. My ancestors also migrated from India. But we don't accept the delusions sell in this article about the so called mohajirs and MQM presented in this BS article.


i don't understand what you are trying to say.

The article was actually being positive about MQM



> We think Indian Muslims are different from Pakistanis and less susceptible to fanaticism. *It is interesting that within Pakistan, the only group openly and violently opposed to Taliban and terrorism are UP and Bihar migrants who form Karachis secular Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) party.*



So if you don't agree with this, are you saying that MQM actually covertly supports the Taliban ?


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## EjazR

*Hizbul militant surrenders with family in Kashmir*

A Hizbul Mujahideen militant has returned from Pakistan- administered Kashmir and surrendered at the Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu and Kashmir's Poonch district along with his family, saying life was becoming increasingly difficult across the border, police sources said.

Liyakat, of Surankote area of Poonch district, surrendered before the Indian Army at the Gotrian post at the LoC Saturday evening. He also handed over his AK-47 assault rifle and some ammunition.

He was accompanied by his wife, Khalida, whom he had married when he had first returned from Pakistan-administered Kashmir in 2000, and three children.

The army handed over the militant and his family to the police.

He had first gone to the other side in 1999, returned in 2000, and after staying on in Jammu and Kashmir for two years, went back along with Khalida in 2001, police said.

Police sources disclosed that Liyakat revealed that the life for Kashmiri militants was becoming increasingly difficult across the LoC.

The sources quoted him as having told the interrogators that Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) officials were regularly visiting the training camps and exhorting them to cross over to the Indian side and step up subversive activities.

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## Areesh

EjazR said:


> i don't understand what you are trying to say.
> 
> The article was actually being positive about MQM
> 
> 
> 
> So if you don't agree with this, are you saying that MQM actually covertly supports the Taliban ?



I oppose the delusion that only the "mohajirs" from India and specially from UP and Bihar oppose Taliban in Pakistan openly and are secular. I consider this a BS and believe that a large part of Pakistan population oppose taliban and their ideology. The article is actually trying to present "mohajirs" as a separate entity from Pakistani society which I consider as wrong. 



> We think Indian Muslims are different from Pakistanis and less susceptible to fanaticism. It is interesting that within Pakistan, the only group openly and violently opposed to Taliban and terrorism are UP and Bihar migrants who form Karachi&#8217;s secular Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) party.



The important thing is that article also didn't present the crimes and fascism of MQM which according to this article is founded by "secular" Indian mulims. 

Anyways my objection to this article is that it is presenting migrants from India as separate group in Pak population which is totally wrong. The migrants from India or so called Mohajirs are as Pakistani and as religious as any other Pakistani.


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## Renegade

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> On the other hand ..*I think GOI should have given him a passport..and allowed him to go to Malaysia*..that way at least her hypocrisy would have been exposed..all the Kashmiri youth., she instigated in stone throwing..would have stone her instead.




Her hypocracy has already been exposed. There was a lot of hullabaloo both in the electronic as well as the print media.




BATMAN said:


> Why should she not be allowed to have passport for her son?
> Just because he is a Muslim?
> What if he wish to go for Hajj?
> It is about time that Muslims in India should fight for a separate home land, if state refuse them their basic rights and no religious freedom.



Ya he was denied a passport because he was a Muslim. We have declared a Hindu Theocracy here, just in case you didnt check. It was headline news in "*Jehad for Dummies*", i am sure you read that; for all your thoughts seem to come from such sources.

We are also planning to impound Vice President Hamid Ansari's passport. There you happy now!!??


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## Swift

BATMAN said:


> Why should she not be allowed to have passport for her son?
> Just because he is a Muslim?
> What if he wish to go for Hajj?
> It is about time that Muslims in India should fight for a separate home land, if state refuse them their basic rights and no religious freedom.



Hope your query is satisfactorily resolved by above post by Karan.


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## kattu-mian

EjazR said:


> *Hizbul militant surrenders with family in Kashmir*
> 
> A Hizbul Mujahideen militant has returned from Pakistan- administered Kashmir and surrendered at the Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu and Kashmir's Poonch district along with his family, saying life was becoming increasingly difficult across the border, police sources said.
> 
> Liyakat, of Surankote area of Poonch district, surrendered before the Indian Army at the Gotrian post at the LoC Saturday evening. He also handed over his AK-47 assault rifle and some ammunition.
> 
> He was accompanied by his wife, Khalida, whom he had married when he had first returned from Pakistan-administered Kashmir in 2000, and three children.
> 
> The army handed over the militant and his family to the police.
> 
> He had first gone to the other side in 1999, returned in 2000, and after staying on in Jammu and Kashmir for two years, went back along with Khalida in 2001, police said.
> 
> Police sources disclosed that Liyakat revealed that the life for Kashmiri militants was becoming increasingly difficult across the LoC.
> 
> The sources quoted him as having told the interrogators that Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) officials were regularly visiting the training camps and exhorting them to cross over to the Indian side and step up subversive activities.




Atleast someone is crawling back to his senses

The smallest effort is not lost, Each wavelet on the ocean tost Aids in the ebb-tide or the flow; Each rain-drop makes some floweret blow; Each struggle lessens human woe.
- Charles Mackay


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## TaimiKhan

kattu-mian said:


> First think of the Infra-structure of the whole country devastated by the floods IMVHO



By the way educate your self, *whole* of the country's infrastructure has not been destroyed that we don't think of other areas. 

Rebuilding of the devastated areas by flood as well as other areas will continue, which is the normal process.


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## IBRIS

Finally Gilgit got some media coverage. Hope they keep up with ongoing turmoil.


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## TaimiKhan

IBRIS said:


> Finally Gilgit got some media coverage. Hope they keep up with ongoing turmoil.



Gilgit has been in the news all the times, am surprised, why are you guys so excited and surprised. 

There is no ongoing turmoil like you guys are having on your side.

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## IBRIS

TaimiKhan said:


> There is no ongoing turmoil like you guys are having on your side.


Did you read the article.


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## TaimiKhan

IBRIS said:


> Did you read the article.



Yeah very much, it happens once in a while, 1-2 day tensions and then it dies down and resurfaces some other day. 

Gilgit is not the only place to have such tensions, sectarian in nature.

There are Shia-Sunni issues and they are for decades now, as well as Shia-Shia issues. 

So what's surprising about it ??


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## karan.1970

TaimiKhan said:


> Gilgit has been in the news all the times, am surprised, why are you guys so excited and surprised.
> 
> There is no ongoing turmoil like you guys are having on your side.



You are right. The intensity of trouble is significantly lower in G&B. As a matter of fact its significantly lower than an average Pakistani province. Raises a bit of a doubt on how freely is information coming out of that area.

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## karan.1970

Srinagar: Top hardline separatist leader arrested: Rediff.com India News

Top hardline Kashmiri leader Mohammed Shafi Reshi along with five others was arrested in Srinagar [ Images ] on Sunday, a day after the police took pro-Pakistan woman separatist leader Asiya Andrabi into custody.

Reshi along with his associates were arrested from Babademb area in the city when they were on their way to finalise the separatist protest calendar.

The Jammu and Kashmir [ Images ] police had arrested Andrabi, leader of the radical all-women group Dukhtaran-e-Millat (Daughters of the Faith), on Saturday. She was picked up from her hideout by a special team along with her 'second-in-command' Fahmeeda. 

Andrabi, who has been leading a separatist campaign, had been evading arrest for long.

Reshi was wanted by police for anti-national activities and indulging in separatist violence.

These leaders have been acting in tandem with another separatist leader Masarat Alam, who is said to be behind the stone-pelting campaign in the Valley. Alam is still evading arrest.


==============================

*Fat lady's sings louder. *

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## IBRIS

TaimiKhan said:


> Gilgit has been in the news all the times, am surprised, why are you guys so excited and surprised.


It's not that we get excited or surprised. We are aware of the situation some media blackout had been observed by Pakistans government to restricting the freedom of expression, journalists in Pakistan side of Kashmir frequently face harassment at the hands of the military, the intelligence agencies and the jihadists alike.


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## gowthamraj

Community problem is common in all countries . But to allow other countries 11,000 troops to control the rebel is . . . . . .  


That even in the land which belong to India 


I not going to anger on no other countries but on my country itself for behaving sameless


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## IBRIS

*Shoot-on-sight order in Gilgit after heavy firing*

By Our Correspondent 
Thursday, 26 Aug, 2010







GILGIT: A shoot-on-sight order was issued after two rival groups resorted to heavy aerial firing soon after Iftar near Yadgar Chowk here on Wednesday, police said. 

Two people were gunned down in the same area on Tuesday. Sources said that paramilitary troops and police came to the area only after the shootout subsided. 

More than 70,000 bullets were fired. Three houses were burnt, but there were no casualties. 

Gilgit&#8217;s assistant commissioner told Dawn that the situation eased after the administration called in Punjab Rangers and Northern Area scouts. 

Police sources said that no arrest had been made nor did they register any case. 

Incidents of firing were also reported from Nagaral, Kashrote, Majini Muhallah and some other parts of the region. 

Gilgit has seen a spree of target killings over the past four days. Four people were killed in two days.


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## Mogambo

Why govt. is making them hero? what they will get by arresting them?  There are zillions way to handle these type of people.


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## IBRIS

CM warns of clamping curfew in Gilgit


> Friday, August 27, 2010
> GILGIT: Chief Minister Gilgit Baltistan Syed Mehdi Shah has warned that curfew could be clamped in Gilgit while calling in Army if it is needed to maintain law and order situation.
> 
> Addressing an emergency and crowded press conference here on Thursday, Shah said, &#8220;There is no other option but to deal the situation with iron hands to ensure durable peace in the area.&#8221;
> 
> He said if the situation required sending anybody to Adiyala Jail, the government would also take the same action to save lives and property of the masses. He warned the government would be compelled to review the agreement reached with the former detainees of the Adiyala Jail if not implemented in letter and spirit.
> 
> The GB chief minister said some of the police officials are involved in sectarianism in the area and stern action is being taken against them. He said those police officials who have been discharging duties on one place for the past five months would be transferred to other areas.
> 
> He said majority of the people in Gilgit are peace loving and only a handful of people are challenging the writ of the government, adding that stern action is being taken against those violating the government&#8217;s writ.
> 
> The chief minister said that situation in Gilgit could not be improved in just a day, urging all sections of society including, elected representatives, ulema and civil society to come forward and play their due role.
> 
> He said the government would compensate those whose houses were set ablaze the other day, adding that the relatives of the victims of the target killing would also be compensated officially. Shah also urged the media to air credible reports, as people and the government faced immense problems due to incredible reports. He also lauded actions of the police officials, who helped people in swift evacuation from their houses.
> 
> The chief minister said that seventeen miscreants were arrested by the law enforcement agencies as the action against them was already underway. Meanwhile, talking to INP, President Gilgit Union of Journalists (GUJ) Imtiaz Ali Taj said there is neither security issue or target killing incidents due to sectarian violence in Gilgit nor army has taken the control of the city.
> 
> He declined media reports, saying that these reports misguided the countrymen and people of Gilgit Baltistan residing in other cities of country and also abroad. He clarified that clashes were erupted between two groups some days ago when a person was killed while acquiring petrol from a local petrol pump. It wasn&#8217;t sectarian clash, he categorically denied. &#8220;The killing of four persons was result of differences between the two groups and it had nothing to do with target killing or sectarian violence,&#8221; Imtiaz Taj said.


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## karan.1970

I am eagerly awaiting the blame getting diverted towards the foreign hands of RAW..


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## Areesh

gowthamraj said:


> Community problem is common in all countries . But to allow other countries 11,000 troops to control the rebel is . . . . . .
> 
> 
> That even in the land which belong to India
> 
> 
> I not going to anger on no other countries but on my country itself for behaving sameless



Yeah you have every right to be angry but the problem is that First it is not you land and second their aren't 11000 troops their. So why do unnecessary hoohaa over nothing.


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> I am eagerly awaiting the blame getting diverted towards the foreign hands of RAW..



I hope not because the things would get normal once again very soon.


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## IBRIS

karan.1970 said:


> I am eagerly awaiting the blame getting diverted towards the foreign hands of RAW..



dammit, you should of waited.


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## Iggy

Atlast government has implanted some spine and working as we wanted them to be..its been long that this a$$holes are eating food from ours and showing loyalty to people across the border..Government should send a strong message to these namak haramis that if they wanted to stay in India then get their act together and live like every other Indian or you will end up in Jail..good going GoI..


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## IBRIS

Areesh said:


> I hope not because the things would get normal once again very soon.



I hope it does because there are pending troubles in queue will exploit every chance they get here is more stuff. 

*Talibanization of the heart*



> A thought provoking article by Abbas Zaidi
> 
> By Abbas Zaidi
> 
> 
> 
> In the backdrop of the public lynching and then hanging of brothers Hafiz Mueez Butt and Muneeb Butt in Sialkot on 15 August, a journalist writing in an English language daily asked the following questions about the murderers: (i) Are they human? (ii) Are they Muslim?, and (iii) Are they really Pakistani? (The writers thought they were none.)
> 
> These questions are evidence of the lowest depth of misery, hollowness, and dishonesty to which some of Pakistani journalists have taken their profession to. Of course, these murderers are human, Muslim, and Pakistani. The hollowness of the word really reminds me of Kurtzs outburst of The horror, the horror! in the Conrads Heart of Darkness. Why is so much hype about this lynching in both the media and the judiciary? Is it something came out of the outer space, so we cannot accept it? Dont we human-Muslim-Pakistanis lynch and destroy unarmed people, even animals, while the entire nation and national institutions react from blatantly cheering on to finding crooked justification for our sins and crimes because Muslims cannot do it!, a mantra on the lips of everyone from Zardari, the secular and Gillani, the reconciliator to Nawaz, the Amirul Mominin to Shahbaz, the Servant-in-Chief? Think about the journalists, the Islamists, the retired and quasi-retired bureaucrats and generals, and the list will go on ad infinitum.
> 
> To the above three questions, add a highly arrogant claim which we the human-Muslim-Pakistanis make without fail while raising an objectionable eyebrow at non-Muslims: We the Muslims never disrespect a corpse!
> 
> The Sialkot lynching is a mirror image of another lynching which we have conveniently forgotten. This takes us to 1994 when the Taliban, made and molded in and by Pakistan, invaded the UN-protected enclave in Kabul where they lynched Dr Najibullah and his brother. After lynching them publicly, just like their brethren have done in Sialkot, the Taliban hung the corpses of the two brothers and mutilated them; they even chopped off their private parts. At that time hundreds of people cheered on the Taliban as they disrespected the two corpses just like the hundreds of people did in Sialkot; the only difference being that there were no mobiles phones available at that time. Again, it is our Pakistani Taliban who Pakistan Army thinks are good Taliban who last year dug up a pir from his grave and hanged, and not just hung, him. You can go a few more years earlier in 1984 when General Zia sent his notorious lashkar led and supervised by no other than Brigadier Musharraf aka General Musharraf, the enlightened, the moderate. This proto-Talibanic lashkar not just burnt alive hundreds of the Shias of Gilgit, it burnt alive the animals too owned by the Shias. Of course, this can be justified because those animals were not human, Muslim, or Pakistani.
> 
> The Sialkot lynching is not spontaneous. It is in fact a great tribute paid to General Zia who created the Islamofascist mindset with the help of Arabian money and Pakistani-sectarian manpower. The Zia-sponsored and Islamists-created curriculum taught in Pakistan to this day has created a vision in which Muslims of a certain denomination are the only superior people in the world whose divine mission is to put the entire world on the righteous path by speech or sword depending on how quiescent or stubborn the people target for conversion are. Because Muslims can do no wrong, whatever Muslims do is right. General Zia and his accomplices created an Islam, which was unheard of in Pakistan, and since then that Islam has been creating us the human-Muslim-Pakistanis.
> 
> Thus, the very fundamental motivating principle of human-Muslim-Pakistanis is that law has no meaning if it hinders our desires. We also know that the state of Pakistan has morphed into impotence, and accountability and rule of law are nonexistent. From 1977 when General Zia dismissed Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto up to the Sialkot lynching, very few serious crimes have been punished. Crime has become an easy choice because people know that (i) they will never get justice, and (ii) crime is not punished. Unless you are hopeless poor and unconnected, you are above law. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto is hanged and Benazir assassinated, and their murderers live honorably; lawyers assault journalists, judges, and policemen, but the judiciary takes no action; policemen kill innocent people and drag their dead bodies in the streets like trophies and are decorated with medals of bravery; journalists can demonize people at will and not be held responsible; murderous fatwas are proclaimed publicly and the bloodthirsty mullahs are addressed as ulema; billions are loaned from the banks and never returned and no questions asked. What message do people get?
> 
> In January this year, Prime Minister Gillani said on the floor of the parliament that despite the Supreme Court and the parliament, the Army cannot be held accountable for anything. Arent we repeatedly told and taught by the media, mullahs, and textbooks that we the human-Muslim-Pakistanis are soldiers of Islam? Havent a few top channels been running a vociferous campaign whose theme is Hum Sab Sipahi!: We are all soldiers!


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## Enigma SIG

EjazR said:


> The bouts of anti-shia violence is *one of the reasons why the mostly shia populace of Kargil is pro-India*. That doesn't mean that they love India ofcourse but they feel that out of the two the better option is India. GoI has a long way to go before proper governance and development can be setup in J&K to really integrate it with the country.



Dude one word - *facepalm*
 We have huge swathes of gilgit shias living all over Pakistan and they are at most fiercely patriotic Pakistanis and heavily anti-india (worth mentioning I am shia and have lots of gilgit shia friends )

Are you jealous that no one in Azad Kashmir or GB shares the sentiments of joining the other side; while people across the border raise Pakistan's flag day in day out 

True there are sectarian problems; but that isn't confined to Pakistan. Age old conflict seen out of context to inflate the indian ego that the Shias in GB are pro India - Shame on You.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

that's when you know the standard hindustany has no retorts, no logical arguments


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## IBRIS

Imran2006g said:


> Are you jealous that no one in Azad Kashmir or GB shares the sentiments of joining the other side



*How Azad is `Azad Kashmir'*

By Sultan Shaheen


If you want to study the situation in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and cannot go to even the minuscule part of this region designated as `Azad Kashmir', the best place to go to is England. Bradford, Birmingham, Nottingham, Luton, Slough and Southall are perhaps even better sources of information about the *** than Muzaffarabad, Mirpur, Bagh Rawalakot and Kotli. For the Kashmiris living in Britain breathe free air that it not much available in the so-called Azad Kashmir. Even if you so much as apply for a job you have to sign an affidavit saying you believe in the ideology of "Kashmir banega Pakistan" (Kashmir will become Pakistan).

I happened to be in England on the eve of recent election in `Azad Kashmir'. Meeting `Azad' Kashmiris in Britain proved revealing. The politically active among them have organised themselves on the lines of politics back home. Nearly all political organisations and ideologies are represented. They all appear to be working against India and, except JKLF, pro-Pakistan. Their activities range from the ridiculous to the more sober. I come across some Tehrik-e-Kashmir activists in Birmingham attempting to impose a boycott of Tilda rice supposedly imported from India. They are aware that India is far too big and powerful a country with a vast capacity to take losses to be bothered with such nonsense. But they think this helps them spread hatred against India. On the other hand they are making a serious and somewhat successful attempt at lobbying political parties, media and bureaucracy to convince them of the genuineness of their case against what they call Indian occupation of Kashmir and serious human rights violations.

But this is a superficial impression. Beneath the surface, most of them are disgusted with Pakistan and many of them find India's handling of its part of Kashmir, despited the obvious difficulties and current hostilities, more commendable. Several people, for instance, mentioned that while India has respected Kashmir's age-old practice of not allowing outsiders to settle down in the valley, Pakistan has allowed over 28,000 Afghan families to settle down and fleece the local populace in the name of Jihad. These Afghans are even more exploitative that the Hindu baniya ever was, they point out.

The comparisons are endless. Kashmiris in the valley are better educated and better skilled. They have their own university with medical and engineering colleges. Some of us, particularly Mirpuris may be more prosperous, they say, but that is only because we managed to come to England when we were virtually thrown out of Pakistan as we lost our livelihood in the wake of the construction of Mangla Dam. The reference to Mangla Dam always brings out either complete silence in pro-Pakistan circles or vociferous protest from those who are not so particular about living with Pakistan. This Dam is said to supply 65% of the electricity needs of Pakistan, but the so-called Azad Kashmir does not get any royalty. Pakistan's Water and Power Development Agency (WAPDA) is estimated to be earning over Rs. 50 crores from the electricity produced at Mangla, thought the total budget of the Azad Kashmir is in the vicinity of Rs. 10 crores.

The most talked about issue, of course, is that of Northern Areas which has been virtually swallowed by Pakistan Army. It comes in the news periodically only when there are Shia-Sunni clashes in the area of firing by the Army to quell anti-government demonstrations. In a historic judgment when a Kashmiri chief justice of the High Court dared to say a couple of years ago that the area was a part of Kashmir and had been illegally occupied by Pakistan Army, he instantly became a hero. Similar enthusiasm was shown by the Kashmiris towards Raja Mumtaz Hussain Rathore, the last PPP `Prime Minister' of the so-called Azad Kashmir, who started taking up the issue of Northern Areas followed his dismissal and detention by the last Nawaz Sharif government.

This leads any discussion in the direction of almost complete denial of democracy to the so-called Azad Kashmir. While India has at least one or two free and fair elections in the valley, notably in 1977 and 1983, the Pakistani Establishment has dismissed and installed governments of `Azad Kashmir' at will. The only party that has not been able to do so is Ms. Benazir Bhutto's Pakistan People Party as it is not considered a part of Establishment even when in power.

It is hardly surprising in view of such perceptions of the Pakistani Kashmiris that they throw out Sardar Qayyoom's obscurantist Muslim Conference which has ruled them for most of the last half a century at the first available opportunity. They did that in 1990 and they have done that now. Sardar Qayyoom's protestations of massive rigging by the PPP government in Islamabad is unbelievable. All that she had to do to win elections there was not to concede Sardar Qayyoom's demand of allowing the Army to conduct elections.


*ELECTION EXPOSE SIMMERING DISCONTENT IN *** OBSCURANTIST INDIA-BAITERS FACE MASSIVE DEFEAT*
Sardar Abdul Qayyoom Khan's ruling Muslim Conference has been virtually wiped out in the small part of Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (***) designated as "Azad Kashmir" where generally farcical elections are held intermittently to buttress the fiction of its Azadi. He has blamed massive rigging for his defeat. This is predictably music to Indian ears. We have ourselves faced similar allegations in international as well as sections of national media in regard to recent elections in our part of Kashmir. But by playing up Sardar Qayyoom's incredible claims in our media and in the diplomatic circuit, we are simply playing in the hands of Pakistan's right wing obscurantists, Army and the Inter-Service Intelligence (ISI).

Indian media pundits and bureaucrats may have valid reasons to regard the ruling Pakistan People Party headed by Ms Benazir Bhutto and even its so-called Azad Kashmir branch as communal or obscurantist and anti-India. Obviously they must have more impeccable sources of information and intelligence. But the people of the so-called Azad Kashmir have been consistently told since the formation of PPP itself that it is secular, anti-Islam, anti-Pakistan and pro-India. The Pakistani media, the Sardar Qayyoom government, indeed the entire Pakistani Establishment has indulged in this propaganda on the largest possible scale for years. And yet they have chosen to give a massive mandate to this supposedly secular, progressive, pro-India party. Whether or not the PPP is secular and pro-India is not the issue. The fact that despite this widespread perception, the people of this piece of *** have chosen to elect it again must mean something to us in India. There is so clearly some message in this massive PPP victory and we should try to understand and interpret it in this light. Our hatred for Pakistan seems to have blinded us and we are reacting mindlessly.

Sardar Qayyoom's party has ruled the so-called Azad Kashmir (I prefer to use this term rather that the popular ***, as this area is actually less than half of the ***) for most of the last half a century. He has himself ruled as President as well as Prime Minister for decades. he retains the love and affection of the military-bureaucratic and feudal-industrialist complex that rules Pakistan as ever. He is the darling of the obscurantist elements in the Pakistani Opposition, despite his son Sardar Ateeq's shenanigans. he had himself come to power in the present instance through a farcical election following an undemocratic and immoral, though constitutional and legal, dismissal and even detention of the last Prime Minister Raja Mumtaz Hussain Rathore who headed a duly elected People's Party government.

The rule in Pakistan is that the movement changes hands in Islamabad, the so-called Azad Kashmir government is dismissed and a new one installed through a farce of an election unless this happens to be a Muslim Conference government headed by Sardar Qayyoom. Following this glorious tradition the last Muslim league government headed by Mr. Nawaz Sharif had dismissed Mr. Mumtaz Rathore, detained him and installed Sardar Qayyoom. But Ms. Benazir Bhutto's PPP has never been allowed to follow this tradition. When she came to power a couple of years ago, she was widely expected to reinstall Mumtaz Rathore. She would not have required to rig the elections to do so. For reasons that we will discuss later the people of the so-called Azad Kashmir are fed up with the Sardar Dynasty. Indeed Ms. Bhutto is not capable of rigging elections there or anywhere else.

Ms. Bhutto came to power for the first time having won elections that followed President Zia-ul-Haq's death in August 1988, she was told that as chairperson of the Kashmir Council, she had the power to dissolve the Kashmir Assembly order fresh elections. She was considering the popular demand for dismissal of the Muzaffarabad government. But Sardar Qayyoom criticised Ms. Bhutto's policy of normalisation with India "to undo the Islamic ideology and weaken the Pakistan Army". He wrote to President Guhlam Ishaq Khan: "We will not allow a pro-India government in Azad Kashmir," He made it clear that he would not accept the electoral verdict if the PPP won. And despite all the pressure from the people of Pakistan Occupied `Azad' Kashmir and her party she could not topple the Sardar government. Sardar Qayyoom completed his tenure in 1990.

Informed people are aware that Pakistan is ruled by a troika. A Pakistan Prime Minister can only do things with the concurrence of Washington and the local Establishment which includes the Army, ISI, Bureaucracy, Business, Feudal and Obscurantist elements. Ms. Bhutto's PPP was allowed to stay in power because for a variety of reasons not germane to this discussion she was for the moment begin tolerated by the two other parts of the troika. But she had very obvious limits to her power. She had enough powers thought to ensure that elections in the so-called Azad Kashmir are not rigged by any part of the troika including the Pakistani Establishment which would have loved to see Sardar Qayyoom back in power. All that she needed to do was not to concede Sardar Qayyoom's persistent demand to allow the Army to conduct the elections.

Why did Ms. Bhutto allow Sardar Qayyoom during her second term to continue for so long and complete his full term again is thus no mystery. She was under intense pressure from the Sardar government. But she continued to be so incensed with Mr. Nawaz Sharif who had earlier dismissed and detained the PPP Prime Minister Raja Mumtaz Rathore that she was seriously considering taking them on in this case. This was when, according to my sources in PPP, a new element entered into the picture which proved decisive and finally saved the Sardar government.

President Laghari of Pakistan visited India and met a delegation of Kashmir valley's pro-Pakistan leaders. This delegation pleaded with him to persuade Ms. Bhutto not to dismiss Sardar Qayyoom. Their argument was that in the absence of Sardar Qayyoom the network supporting militancy in the valley would be disturbed. A PPP government there can obviously not be trusted to support the right wing network. Their second argument was even more important. Islamabad dismissing a duly elected Muzaffarabad government without any apparent reason, thought constitutionally valid and legal, would be clearly immoral and undemocratic that it would weaken their case that Kashmir's identity and autonomy would better protected by Pakistan that it is with India. Even though Pakistan has a history of such undemocratic dismissals, this particular dismissal at the height of militancy in the Valley would prove disastrous, so pleaded Hurriyat leaders. Despite all his sophistication and persuasive arguments, my sources tell me, it took President Laghari two and a half hours of intense pleading to dissuade Ms. Bhutto from dismissing Sardar Qayyoom's government.

One wonders if the pro-Pakistan Hurriyat leaders in the valley are now pleading with Sardar Qayyoom not to accuse PPP government in Islamabad and his own government in Muzaffarabad of massive rigging in the elections. For, this too weakens their case of Kashmir's accession with Pakistan. It brings to light the farcical nature of `Azadi' in the so-called Azad Kashmir. Of course, even this so-called Azadi is not available to the hapless people of the majority area of the Pakistan occupied Kashmir designated as Northern Areas. The vast areas of Gilgit and Baltistan have simply vanished from the face of the earth as far as the Pakistan Constitution and other legal documents are concerned, though until 1954, Pakistan used to supply maps that showed these territories as a part of Kashmir.

The Muslim Conference alleging massive rigging is indeed ridiculous. The People's Party massive mandate in Azad Kashmir represents not so much its own popularity as it articulates the disgust of the `Azad' Kashmiris with Pakistani Establishment. The Muslim Conference is seen as this Establishment's local representative despite its regional character. Ironically, the People's Party Kashmir unit is seen as more representative of the regional aspirations despite this Party's all-Pakistan character.

The plight of Azad Kashmiris calls for a separate write-up. What we can say here is that economic factors like lack of development of any industry, communication facilities, exploitation of Mangla dam for providing electricity to 65 per cent of Pakistan without any compensation, no local university, no local bank, no new bridges over the river Jhelum and so on do weight heavily on the minds of `Azad' Kashmiris, what they resent most is their virtual slave status in the Constitution, new tensions in the wake of settlement of over 28,000 Afghan families, militant training camps and the inevitable rise of obscurantism due to almost uninterrupted half-a-century rule of the Muslim Conference. They have been told for years now that the accession of Kashmir valley to Pakistan is round the corner. But neither the proud Suddhan tribals, nor the wealthy Mirpuris (most of them have relatives in England) are prepared to accept the inevitable domination of the better educated and numerically stronger `hatos' as they contemptuously refer to the Kashmiris of the valley in case Kashmir is united.


*An Open Letter:*
What are you doing with Hurriyat, Yasin Malik?
It is easier for an Indian to sympathise with you, regardless of the folly of your pursuit. With your emaciated body, you are the only Gandhi-like figure on the kashmir horizon. Despite your militant past, the country appeared to have accepted your protestations of peade when you renounced violence. Released from captivity, you received the best media attention any Kashmiri leader had got, perhaps with the solitary exception so Shabir Shah. But when you went on fast for three days in Delhi nevently to focus attention on human rights violations in Kashmir, there was hardly an mediaperson or realy any one else around. I wonder if you have been wondering why.

I wanted to ask you-what are doing with Hurriyat, Yasin Saheb?-when I visited you on the second day of your fast. But you were in no dondition to converse. You have been taking so much on yourslef, despite ill-health. Also, the question would have been a trifle awkward with so many Hurriyat leaders, including Chairman Mirwaiz Omar Farooq surrounding you.

You and Shabir Shah are the two prominent leaders who are associated with peaceful means of protest as well as what is called the third option, independence from both India and Pakistan. As other members of the Hurriyat Conference still stand for accession with Pakstan your association with Hurriyat has always been rather intriguing. Now this question has acquired some urgency with the recent declarations of the Hurriyat chief during his recent trip abroad. At a news conference in Washington, he said: "No Third Option exists on Kashmir. All components of All-Parties Hurriyat Conference, despite their diversity have accepted this. The Kashmiris have to decide in a plebiscite whether they should opt for India or Pakistan."

Hurriyat's total and rather desperate dependence on Pakistan become even more pronounced during the last SAARC foreign ministers' conference in Delhi. Senior Hurriyat leaders like Umar Farooq, Sayed Ali Shah Geelani adn Professor Abdul Ghani met the visiting Pakistani foreign minister Sahabazda Yaqub Khan and criticised Islamabad's efforts to improve trade relations with India. They felt Pakistna's business interests might overshadow the political aspirations of the people of Jammu and Kashmir. Since Pakistan seemed keen to remove trade barriers with India under the SAARC agenda, they feared it might ultimately not give that much importance to the Kashmir issue.

That Pakistan was getting ready to dump the Kashmiris and perhaps concentrate on improving its battered economy had become clear to me, Yasin Shaeb, several months ago. You couldn't have forgotten what happened in Leicester, U.K. last August. Expartriate Kashmiri leader Dr. Ayyub Thukar had organised a conference of Kashmiri leaders from India Pakistan as well. No one turned up from Pakistan. This became particularly embarrassing for the organisers because two people arrived even from India - the present writer and Mr. Subodh Kant Sahai. Finally, Islamabad, probably after much coaxing and cajoling, instructed its deputy High Commissioner in London to attent the conference who was able to reach there only for the last session.

One can hardly blame Pakistan, though, for this state of affairs. In the case of proxy wars this is almost routine. This is what Shah of Iran did with Mulla Barzani's Kurdish secessionist movement in Iraq. This is what Saddam Hussain does with Iranian Kurdish secessionists in Iran. Support them, use them, sell them and dump them is virtually the norm.

As Pakistani pro-occupation with tis impending political and economic disintegration grows, Hurriyat is bound to grow even more desperate. It is bound to shout louder and louder from rooftops higher and higher ist protestations of loyality to Pakistan. It is for leaders like you, Yasin Saheb, to think if Hurriyat is correctly representing your point of view. Shabbir Shah has proved smarter. He has manoeuvered himself out of Hurriyat at the right time. I wonder if you would reconsider your position vis-s-vis Hurriyat before it is too late for you to extricate yourself out of the mess that Hurriyat is beginning to sense it has got itself into.


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## karan.1970

Mogambo said:


> Why govt. is making them hero? what they will get by arresting them?  There are zillions way to handle these type of people.



No need to make these criminals martyers..Let them rot in prison.


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## gowthamraj

for areesh The Hindu : News / International : China's presence in Gilgit-Baltistan: NYT


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Indian Police Thrash Scribe in Srinagar​*


> Srinagar, August 29 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, despite assurances from the authorities that journalist will be free to perform their professional duties, Indian police beat up a media reporter in Srinagar without any reason.
> 
> Riyaz Malik, a correspondent of a local daily was beaten up while he was on way to office from Raj Bagh when a party from police station Kothi Bagh stopped him near Zero Bridge without any reason.
> 
> *I told the men in uniform that I am a journalist and have a curfew pass. They abused me and thrashed me, said Malik, who received injuries on arms and other body parts.*
> 
> Last month, personnel from the same police station had roughed up a mediaman, Showkat Hamid, near Regal Chowk.
> 
> Meanwhile, the police Saturday restricted movement of journalists around the TRC ground in Srinagar saying that they had *instructions from the authorities not to allow the media-persons to move around the ground*.



http://kmsnews.org/news/indian-polic...cribe-srinagar



largest democracy?? GTFOH

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## Areesh

IBRIS said:


> I hope it does because there are pending troubles in queue will exploit every chance they get here is more stuff.
> 
> *Talibanization of the heart*



Nothing would happen dear. No need to over react over non issues. 

@gowthamraj

Oh come on. Not the hindu.


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## IBRIS

Areesh said:


> Nothing would happen dear. No need to over react over non issues.



no one is over reacting mate. Just going along you as we are being enlightened.


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## Iggy

Oops some one said earlier that there was no problem is Pakistan Kashmir and they are living a peaceful and harmonic environment May be this news is also a propaganda right??


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## Abu Zolfiqar

good good arrest them all, is it helping you so much 


what happens when Geelani is placed under house-arrest? The people pour out on the streets in anger and rage and confront the sissies.


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## Mogambo

karan.1970 said:


> No need to make these criminals martyers..Let them rot in prison.



We should take some strong steps.

Also, if they really wanna arrest they should also arrest dozens of puppets who are the managers of violence who starts every stone pelting, finance it, arrange people, give inflammatory speeches etc. etc.

The gilani, umer farooq or andrabi can't do anything without them.


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## Areesh

seiko said:


> Oops some one said earlier that there was no problem is Pakistan Kashmir and they are living a peaceful and harmonic environment May be this news is also a propaganda right??



Yup they are peaceful. Such incidents happen everywhere. What is fus about? 



IBRIS said:


> no one is over reacting mate. Just going along you as we are being enlightened.



Thanks. Check it tomorrow and the things would be normal once again. You enlightenment shouldn't end once the things would get normal in a day or two.


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## IBRIS

Areesh said:


> Thanks. Check it tomorrow and the things would be normal once again. You enlightenment shouldn't end once the things would get normal in a day or two.



Give the free press a chance, hopefully things would get better.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Mogambo said:


> who are the managers of violence who starts every stone pelting, finance it, arrange people, give inflammatory speeches etc. etc.



the protestors mostly use their words.....neither words, nor stones & pebbles require much financing.....do they, genius?????




> The gilani, umer farooq or andrabi can't do anything without them.



Kashmiris could do without occupational forces


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## Prometheus

fox said:


> Violence in Gilgit started after we gave status of province to Gilgit now we can link our railway and motorways with China and its definitely a pain in Indians ***.  *No country in the world including Israel supporting India on Kashmir issue*.
> 
> Just imagine Motorways and high speed railways connecting Pakistan (Gilgit area) and China there will be no violence economic activity worth billions of dollas.



I highly dout that statement.

We got mighty friends on our side
Russia Backs India on Kashmir


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## gowthamraj

^ and also israel openly admits that full kashmir is belong to India  



But i dont think rupee news would tell that


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## somebozo

Signs of frustation?? Stones running out in srinagar lately?? 
How i get an export permit for stones?? I did like to chop the middle man and open a resale shop too?? Selling stones will be the best business in Kashmir for next few weeks!


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## Bhairava

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> *Indian Police Thrash Scribe in Srinagar​*



They are getting what they deserve.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

thanks at least for being forthcoming.....

but at least have the dignity to NOT call yourself a democratic/secular/ country yes?


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## Gucci

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> thanks at least for being forthcoming.....
> 
> but at least have the dignity to NOT call yourself a democratic/secular/ country yes?



we r secular,n democratic also but we cant compromise with the integrity.if same thing happens to u,will u wait 4 partition.???.y B leaders r killed by ur army or agencies??


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## Bhairava

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> thanks at least for being forthcoming.....



Thanx mate..I dont believe in mincing my words.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> but at least have the dignity to NOT call yourself a *democratic/*secular/ country yes?



Why not..??

Democracy means people can choose who should govern them under the existing laws of the country.Kashmiris can choose from the various political parties.No one stops them from doing that.

Democracy doesnt mean "Allowing every Tom,Dick and Harry to have a separate nation at their whim and fancy"

BTW Im not surprised you dont have much idea about democracy.


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## Areesh

IBRIS said:


> Give the free press a chance, hopefully things would get better.



They already have a plethora of chances and would surely report once the situation would be normal in just a matter of hours unlike IOK.



---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 PM ----------




HUD1 said:


> Its time all the illegal construction done by the Chinese in Gilgit must be stopped, if it doesn't stop then send Sukhois and Mirages bomb away all the illegal construction. Because it is now or never after any considerable presence the things would be totally impossible.
> JAAGO MMS JAAGO



Wake up time baby. Subah ho gayi maamon.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

i thought democratic societies promoted fair and free media....but it seems indians prefer selective democracy, when it suits them. 


You claim that the journalist got we he deserved; interestingly enough, as per the article - the journalist was free to carry out his duty and had the authority to do so (despite the constant curfews) yet he was thrashed and beaten by the police


are the hindustany authorities and the police/army not on the same page here?


it's unfortunate that hindustan choses to suppress the Kashmiri majority using heavy handed tactics; it's coming back to bite them


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## Bhairava

Areesh said:


> Oh come on. Not the hindu.



Why not the Hindu..one of the most credible sources in India. 



fox said:


> Violence in Gilgit started after we gave status of province to Gilgit now we can link our railway and motorways with China and its definitely a pain in Indians ***.  No country in the world including* Israel supporting India on Kashmir issue.*



In Addition to Russia - Israel stands hook,line and sinker behind India


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## Gucci

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i thought democratic societies promoted fair and free media....but it seems indians prefer selective democracy, when it suits them.
> 
> 
> You claim that the journalist got we he deserved; interestingly enough, as per the article - the journalist was free to carry out his duty and had the authority to do so (despite the constant curfews) yet he was thrashed and beaten by the police
> 
> 
> are the hindustany authorities and the police/army not on the same page here?
> 
> 
> it's unfortunate that hindustan choses to suppress the Kashmiri majority using heavy handed tactics; it's coming back to bite them



read my above post sir!!!!


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## IBRIS

Areesh said:


> unlike IOK.



You are kidding me, right. Media in Pak Adm Kashmir is observed closely and pakistani media had voiced again and again about being oppressed. You can't deny the fact that media is controlled in Pak Adm Kashmir. Bad side barely gets coverage.


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## Bhairava

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> ongoing events in occupied Kashmir would have me believe otherwise!



Things are changing mate...Stone pelters get a taste of their own medicine


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## Bhairava

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i thought democratic societies promoted fair and free media....but it seems indians prefer selective democracy, when it suits them.



Democracy comes second only to territorial integrity of the country.So I dont see any issues here.




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> You claim that the journalist got we he deserved; interestingly enough, as per the article - the journalist was free to carry out his duty and had the authority to do so (despite the constant curfews) yet he was thrashed and beaten by the police



Who knows what hapened between them (Police and journalist)..?So before knowing who was at fault lets not play a blame game..




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> are the hindustany authorities and the police/army not on the same page here?



Every single of the 1.2 billion Indians are on the same page as far as Kashmir is concerned.




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> it's unfortunate that hindustan choses to suppress the Kashmiri majority using heavy handed tactics; it's coming back to bite them



And it is equally unfortunate that Pakistan makes a million people just pawns in its land-grab game.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*India Deserves int'l pressure on Referendum in Kashmir​*

TopNews 
Written by KMS 
Saturday, 28 August 2010 23:50 







Islamabad, August 28, 2010: The Chairman of Jammu and Kashmir Peoples Freedom League (JKPFL), Muhammad Farooq Rehmani has said that India was bound under its own international promise to grant the right of self-determination to the people of Jammu and Kashmir.

Farooq Rehmani in a statement issued in Islamabad said that India had become a law unto itself, and therefore deserved international pressure to concede the popular demand for right to self-determination. He pointed out that by granting the right of self-determination to the Kashmiris, South Asia could enjoy peace and security and bitter enemies could become peaceful neighbours in the region. 


The JKPFL Chairman maintained that if India failed to read the writing on the wall, responsibility would lie on the Indian Government, leaving Kashmiris no option except to continue the present mass struggle more resolutely and vigorously. He urged the Security Council members, who adopted historical resolutions on Kashmir between 1948 and 1965, to revive their activities on Kashmir and bring India and Pakistan closer to a durable solution in line with UN resolutions and in accordance with the Kashmiris aspirations. He pointed out that Kashmiris would get the reward of their sacrifices very soon.

Condemning the latest spree of killings and arrests of common people mostly youngsters in Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir, he said that the unbridled powers under the black laws had made Indian army and police brutal and they were causing daily killings in all rural and urban areas of Kashmir. He said that before it became too late, the international community should waste no time to address the current situation of Kashmir by resolving the issue in accordance with the principle of the right of self-determination to save the region from the scourge of war.

More than hundred people were injured when Indian forces used brute force to quell pro-freedom demonstrations across the Valley.

The APHC-AJK chapter organized Quran Khawani and Dua, today, at its headquarters here to pay homage to the prominent Kashmiri liberation leader and religious scholar, Mirwaiz Muhammad Yousaf Shah, on his 43rd death anniversary.

The speakers eulogized services of the late Mirwaiz for the cause of Kashmiris liberation movement and religion. Kashmiri leaders including Mehmood Ahmed Saghar, Ghulam Nabi Noshehri, Syed Yousuf Naseem, Professor Nazir Ahmed Shawl, Altaf Hussain Wani, Abdul Hameed Lone, Syed Faiz Naqashbandi, Muhammad Rafiq Dar, Mir Tahir Masood, Sheikh Muhammad Yaqoob, Abdul Majeed Malik, Manzoor-ul-Haq Butt and Kashmiri people belonging to different walks of life were present on the occasion.

The speakers paid homage to Kashmiri martyrs and vowed to continue their mission till its complete success.


Over fifty people were injured when CRPF troops and police burst teargas shells and opened fire upon protesters in Shopian. Hundreds of people after offering congregational Friday prayers at Jamai Masjid staged pro-freedom and anti-India demonstrations. They shouted, We want freedom, Go India Go, and other slogans. The people tried to march through the streets of the town. However, when they reached near Deputy Commissioners (DC) office, a heavy posse of Indian forces intercepted the protesters and used brute force against them.

At least a dozen pro-freedom demonstrators were injured in the action of paramilitary troops in Bijbehara, Sher Bagh, Srnal, Lazibal, Mattan, K P Road and other areas.Thousands of people defying curfews in Regipora, Darzipora, Jamia Kadeem, Trehgam, Handwara, Batergam, Muqam-e-Shah Wali (RA), Bumhama, Kulangam, Kralgund and other areas of Kupwara district staged forceful anti-India protests.

In Hyderpora, Soura, Khwaja Bagh, Sopore, Kunzer and Tangmarg areas dozens of people including women were injured in clashes between protesters and the paramilitary forces. The locals of Kunzer said that the troops and policemen barged into residential houses and ransacked household goods. A woman identified as Shamima Lone was hospitalised after being thrashed by the troops and police personnel.

CRPF and policemen went on rampage. They barged into our residential houses and thrashed the inmates ruthlessly. They did not even spare women and children, Abdul Majeed, a local said. Windowpanes of more than two dozen houses were also damaged by the troops and police personnel, he added.

Mobile services in Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir are also not in operation for the last two months. People of North Kashmir have been facing communication blockade as no mobile service is functioning.

The services of neither private nor the government-run mobile companies have not been functioning in North Kashmir, which has been further adding to the miseries of the masses facing curfew and other restrictions imposed by the authorities.

Expressing grave concern over continued communication blockade, the people of different areas of North Kashmir told mediamen that the authorities had blocked the communication without any reason.

A civilian was shot dead by a member of Indian army patronized Village Defence Committee (VDC) in Rajouri district. The incident took place when the civilian, Abdul Shafiq and VDC member, Satpaul had a heated argument over some issue at Daraj Mohra in the district. The VDC member later took out his official gun and shot at Shafiq, killing him on the spot.


At least 43 children were injured in a road mishap when a speeding school bus skidded off the road and plunged into a gorge at Narian in Rajouri district. On the other hand, curfew was today clamped in Srinagar, Sopore and Kunzar-Tangmarg towns to thwart anti-India protests. The curfew has been imposed in Srinagar, Sopore and Kunzar towns, a police officer told media men. Shops, educational institutions, banks and private offices remained closed and traffic was off the roads.

The Chairman of Hyderabad based All India Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen and the member of Indian Parliament, Assaduddin Owaisi, has urged India to put an end to the killing spree and the human rights violations across occupied Kashmir.

Owaisi, in a telephonic interview with a Srinagar based daily, said that Indian troops had killed over 64 innocent Kashmiris including women, children and old-aged Kashmiris during the ongoing movement since last three months.

He said that India should revoke all the draconian laws like Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) and Public Safety Act (PSA) due to which the troops were killing the people with impunity.

Pointing out that mammoth peaceful protests in the occupied territory showed Kashmiris anger against Indian oppression, he condemned the imposition of curfew in the territory to quell peaceful protests, which caused nuisance for the people. People are being stopped to discharge even their religious duties, he deplored.

India Deserves int'l pressure on Referendum in Kashmir


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Gounder said:


> Things are changing mate...Stone pelters get a taste of their own medicine



you fail to convince!

things will change for the better when occupational forces withdraw, and hindustan finally matures enough to the point where they will realize that granting occupied Kashmiris the existential right to self-determination is the only way forward --once hindustan did that, Pakistan would be compelled to do the same, even though we have no such protests on our side


iOK is a very artificial relationship....the people have no love or affection for hindustan, and it shows via the images and news reports coming out from there


and on that note, i commend the journalists who are covering and documenting the abuses being committed by the sissies


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## Abu Zolfiqar

im sure a good chunk of your population --especially in rural areas, have little concern on Kashmir....does a dravidian tamil really feel affinity towards a Kashmiri? What about the Nagalandians


your post was emotional


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## Bhairava

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> im sure a good chunk of your population --especially in rural areas, have little concern on Kashmir....does a dravidian tamil really feel affinity towards a Kashmiri? What about the Nagalandians
> 
> 
> your post was emotional



I dont see them as Kashmiris....but rather as Indians.Period. 


ps,: Do you guys always see others through the prism of ethinicity,religion etc.?


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## Patrician

What India does or doesn't deserve is for God to judge but what makes you think India will buckle to any pressure? Who in this world is so righteous as to teach India what is moral and what is not?

Moreover, in today's economic scenario with India and China being widely touted as the Western world's saviors after the devastating economic crisis, who do you think has the stomach for indulging in such adventurism and risking economic co-operation with world's second-fastest growing economy having a potential consumer middle-class larger than the population of the US.

Accept it, in today's world, everyone thinks about his own interests. Nobody is a saint. The world has a long list of issues to worry about. And kashmir figures, assuming it does, at the very last of the list. 

Wait a few years (may be till the end of this decade). By 2020, India will either be included in the expanded UNSC or will be powerful enough to ignore it altogether or at the very least influence it in its favor. That my dear friend, will be the last nail in the coffin of this dying movement which not many in this materialistic world care about.

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## GentlemanObserver

IBRIS said:


> Finally Gilgit got some media coverage. Hope they keep up with ongoing turmoil.



lol you lot make me laugh. Gilgit has been in the press for the odd fight or shoot out and a bit of strife. No one has ever made a hullabuloo over it.

The day this report was published i counter 5 threads from Indians with the words "Gilgit and Conflict". Very interesting that people here are pontificating and making *khiyali pulao* over a region and people they have no understanding of.


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## Gucci

pak will have to except the ground realities,the nation who is under critised by even afganistan cant build pressure on india.and for what world look up here,they have their own interst.indiua is satisfying them.*i agree that pak is facing tough challenges but few days ago cameron came ,snatched the billion dollar deal and blast the pakistan role.*so this is the way world goes

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Gounder said:


> ps,: Do you guys always see others through the prism of ethinicity,religion etc.?



au contraire....

but to say Kashmiris are indians is beyond ridiculous; they are rebelling against the occupation!


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## Bhairava

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Pointing out that mammoth peaceful protests in the occupied territory showed Kashmiris&#8217; anger against Indian oppression, he condemned the imposition of curfew in the territory *to quell peaceful protests,* which caused nuisance for the people. &#8220;People are being stopped to discharge even their religious duties,&#8221; he deplored.



Peaceful protests..my left foot.














*First let that Owaisi develop the old city of Hyderabad which has become a ghetto of crime,violence and theft and then lecture about faraway Kashmir*.

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## Bhairava

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> au contraire....
> 
> but to say Kashmiris are indians is beyond ridiculous; *they are rebelling* against the occupation!



A small correction in sentence,but a blunder in reality,

its not "they are rebelling" - its "A small section of separatists in the Valley (SriNagar,Sopore) are rebelling" and as such they will be dealt as rebels deserve to be.

p.s.: It may be difficult for you to understand how we people of different cultures,languages,religions,ethinicities exist as one nation.Well frankly many do.


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## RamGorur

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> im sure a good chunk of your population --especially in rural areas, have little concern on Kashmir....does a dravidian tamil really feel affinity towards a Kashmiri? What about the Nagalandians


Yes they do. From North to South and East to West, we understand that Kashmir is non-negotiable.


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## Speaker

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *India Deserves int'l pressure on Referendum in Kashmir​*



If you were to start laying the prerequisites for this, most people will shy away from this referendum. Let's start with the rehabilitation of Pandits in the valley before this so called referendum. We also need to consider the part of Kashmir that is under Pakistani and Chinese occupation. Is all this possible? Let's get that achieved before calling for referendums.

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## Hulk

They only talk about what suits them, completely ignoring the peaceful protesters sinful acts.

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## karan.1970

MarkTheTruth.  After so many months, this rag still manages to get me into splits...

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## Abu Zolfiqar

well! those seperatists arent outsiders, they are Kashmiri citizens....you arent.

therefore what you have to say about them, or for them is irrelevant at this point.

Perhaps over a longer period of time the occupational forces will lose the will to keep their artificial hold over lands (and people) that are not indian, have no loyalty/affiliation to hindustan


it makes no sense to try to control people that genuinely hate the occupation


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## TaimiKhan

IBRIS said:


> It's not that we get excited or surprised. We are aware of the situation some media blackout had been observed by Pakistans government to restricting the freedom of expression, journalists in Pakistan side of Kashmir frequently face harassment at the hands of the military, the intelligence agencies and the jihadists alike.



A very clever manipulation by the Indians to show something by using something else, this is what Indians call solid evidence. 

Media men demonstrating for implementation of wage board shown as media being brutalized. 

Then the media guys are stopped for giving coverage to some other event and this is termed as brutalization. 

In Pakistan democratic govts have closed news channels / newspapers or harassed them, this is just normal process. It happens all over in Pakistan, rather all over the world. 

Anyway, i can sense the pain in the a**e from other side, as they need atleast something to show and do propaganda, as something needs to be done to cover the atrocities in IOK. 

Whatever you guys have to say, people in and from Northern Areas as well as Azad Kashmir are happy and not being killed and dumped in unmarked graves, their mothers, sisters, daughters being raped, killed, and innocents being tortured and then their bodies being thrown like animals. People of Azad Kashmir are serving in the armed forces and fully participating in daily life activities. 

Not like Kashmir occupied by India. Even if press is being pressurized on this side, if something ugly had been happening as what our Indian friends suggest, we would have heard atleast something.

If people can listen developments and peoples plight from within North Korea, then it would be very easy to get information out from place like Norther Areas, where people have their free will still intact. 

SO much for Indian propaganda, but its understandable as they need something to try to divert attention from the brutalization in IOK.


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## TaimiKhan

seiko said:


> Oops some one said earlier that there was no problem is Pakistan Kashmir and they are living a peaceful and harmonic environment May be this news is also a propaganda right??



Atleast a much better life then what their brethren are experiencing on the other side, well why am i saying that as you people can't see that, as that is justified to you people as they deserve that. 

Man, you people are something, making fuss from something which is just normal and forgetting what you people do.


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## TaimiKhan

karan.1970 said:


> I am eagerly awaiting the blame getting diverted towards the foreign hands of RAW..



Well thanks, great attempt to derail the threat. 

What Pakistani members lack, you guys are the best replacements.


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## karan.1970

TaimiKhan said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Well thanks, great attempt to derail the threat.
> 
> What Pakistani members lack, you guys are the best replacements.



No intent of that sort at all. Its a pretty foregone conclusion that anything of this sort happening in India and Pakistan automatically gets blames on ISI and RAW respectively. Isnt it?


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## TaimiKhan

IBRIS said:


> *How Azad is `Azad Kashmir'*
> 
> By Sultan Shaheen
> 
> 
> If you want to study the situation in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and cannot go to even the minuscule part of this region designated as `Azad Kashmir', the best place to go to is England. Bradford, Birmingham, Nottingham, Luton, Slough and Southall are perhaps even better sources of information about the *** than Muzaffarabad, Mirpur, Bagh Rawalakot and Kotli. For the Kashmiris living in Britain breathe free air that it not much available in the so-called Azad Kashmir. Even if you so much as apply for a job you have to sign an affidavit saying you believe in the ideology of "Kashmir banega Pakistan" (Kashmir will become Pakistan).



Aaahhhh, another Indian sourced Solid Evidence backed piece of art. 

Strange this is, i have a new guy just recruited in my org and he is a Kashmiri and i got all his personal / official papers signed infront of me, i didn't saw any that kashmir related Affidavit in them. 

Useless to even counter the numerous misconceptions / propagandist lies mentioned as this is Indian solid evidence which is irrefutable. 

Indians really really do believe in whatever is written by their own. 

Good for Indians.


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## TaimiKhan

karan.1970 said:


> No intent of that sort at all. Its a pretty foregone conclusion that anything of this sort happening in India and Pakistan automatically gets blames on ISI and RAW respectively. Isnt it?



Sorry, but the intent was pretty much to derail it. 

The news item is very clear about the cause of the violence, thus it was very idiotic of mentioning the RAW thing. 

Anyway, i can sense the frustration, it happens, Indian members rarely get a chance to rejoice on news items such like that, compared to the ones we have to hear from IOK.


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## IBRIS

*How free is my Valley?*

Saadia Gardezi (The Friday Times, Pakistan)

*The &#8220;Azad&#8221; in AJK smacks of oxymoronic rhetoric. Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK) is neither a free territory, nor a province of Pakistan. Muzaffarabad has always been under the control of Islamabad and the curtailment of the freedom of expression is constitutionally protected. Without meaning to refer to the new name just bestowed on an old province, let me ask, what&#8217;s in a name?

Here is what.

There are a number of reports that describe the human rights violations in Indian Occupied Kashmir but it is hard to come by reports of violations on Pakistan&#8217;s side. The Pakistani government often pretends that the only problems faced by Kashmiris are in India. The official position that there are no human rights violations in AJK is a na&#239;ve and disingenuous position that needs to be challenged. According to the Freedom House World Freedom Reports, in 2008 Pakistan-administered Kashmir was given the status &#8220;Not Free&#8221;. This index awards a score of 1 to a &#8220;free country&#8221; based on ratings of political rights and civil liberties. These ratings are averaged, ranging from 1 to 7, i.e. countries or disputed territories with scores from 1 to 2.5 are considered Free, 3 to 5 are Partly Free, and 5.5 to 7 are Not Free. In 2008, this index gave AJK a Political Rights Score of 7 and a Civil Liberties score of 5. The scores for AJK have improved to a 6 and a 5 respectively in 2010. In comparison, Indian Occupied Kashmir has better scores of 5 for political rights and a 4 for civil liberties, and a status of &#8216;partly free&#8217;, which ironically is exactly equivalent to Pakistan&#8217;s national score and status!

According to Brad Adams, Asia Director at Human Rights Watch , the &#8220;Pakistani authorities govern Azad Kashmir with strict controls on basic freedoms&#8230; The military shows no tolerance for dissent and practically runs the region as a fiefdom.&#8221; The presence of an elected local government is a mere formality. In 2006, Human Rights Watch (HRW) reported that the federal government in Islamabad, the army and the ISI control all aspects of political life in AJK. Torture is routinely used in Pakistan, and this practice is also common in AJK. HRW also documented incidents of torture by the intelligence services and other agencies and individuals acting at the behest of the security establishment but knows of no cases in which members of military and paramilitary security and intelligence agencies have been prosecuted or even disciplined for acts of torture or mistreatment.*

The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) has also articulated tight controls on freedom of expression as a key pillar of government policy in AJK. While militant organizations promoting the incorporation of Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir State into Pakistan have had free reign to propagate their views, groups promoting an independent Kashmir find their speech curtailed. Publications and literature favouring independence are banned.

Pakistan has prevented the creation of an independent media in the territory through bureaucratic restrictions and coercion. Looking at the freedom of expression in AJK, before 2005, the only radio allowed to operate was the Azad Kashmir Radio, a subsidiary of Radio Pakistan. Similarly before the earthquake telephone landlines were limited and being strictly monitored and a very limited mobile telephone service was operational. HRW reports that all telecommunications stations were controlled by the Special Communications Organization (SCO), a functional unit of the Pakistani army. Only after the earthquake did the government allow private mobile phone companies to operate in Azad Kashmir when it was pointed out that the loss of life could have been lessened had people and rescue workers had this technology as they did in affected areas in NWFP (as it was then called).

*It has been widely reported that refugees from Jammu and Kashmir are discriminated against and mistreated by the authorities. Kashmiri refugees and former militants from India, most of whom are secular nationalists and culturally and linguistically different from the people of AJK, are particularly harassed through continuous surveillance, arbitrary beating and arrests and restraints on political expression. Pakistani military bases in AJK are usually placed in close proximity to highly populated civilian areas supposedly because of a lack of space. But many Kashmiris told HRW that the Pakistani military uses the bases to keep a close watch on the population to ensure political compliance and control.*

Freedoms of association and assembly are restricted and constitutionally repressed. *Article 4(7)(2) of the Azad Jammu and Kashmir Interim Constitution Act of 1974, states: &#8216;No person or party in Azad Jammu and Kashmir shall be permitted to propagate against, or take part in activities prejudicial or detrimental to, the ideology of the States accession to Pakistan&#8217;.* In recent years anti-government demonstrations have been violently suppressed and examples of these incidents are not hard to find. In 2005, at least ten people were killed when the police fired on a group of Shia students, after which curfews were imposed in Gilgit to prevent demonstrators from assembling. In 2006 police detained leaders of the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front, including Amanullah Khan, after they attended a peaceful rally in Rawalpindi against the construction of the Bhasha Dam. Khan was detained for a week and was not permitted to receive visitors during that time, according to the U.S. State Department&#8217;s human rights report. In October 2008, police baton-charged dozens of people demonstrating against the proposal to move the capital of Azad Kashmir from Muzaffarabad. Three people were arrested but released the same day. In November 2008, the police blocked activists of the pro-independence APNA who were protesting in favor of truck services across the line-of-control from entering a town near the line-of-control.

*In 2007, the European Union (EU) passed Emma Nicholson&#8217;s Kashmir report with an overwhelming majority and adopted it as an official EU document. This kind of report sits squarely in the grey area of the AJK problem. It has been touted in the media as being anti-Pakistan and there are Kashmiris who find it pro-Kashmiri rights and some call it dubious. The key problem with this report is that it fails to acknowledge Indian repression in Kashmir and portrays a benign image of a &#8220;pro-people&#8221; India.*

The EU report titled &#8216;Present situation and future prospects&#8217; was critical of the fact that the *Pakistan side of Kashmir was governed through the Ministry of Kashmir Affairs in Islamabad, that Pakistan officials dominated the Kashmir Council. This report also highlighted the facts that at the time the Chief Secretary, the Inspector-General of Police, the Accountant-General and the Finance Secretary were all from Pakistan.* Nicholson disapproved of the provision in the 1974 Interim Constitution, which forbids any political activity that is not in accordance with the doctrine of Jammu and Kashmir as articulated by Pakistan, and obliges any candidate for a parliamentary seat in AJK to sign a declaration of loyalty to that effect.

*Looking at the rule of law, the whole system of law and order seemingly rests on the control by the army and Islamabad. A clear illustration was given at the time of the 2005 earthquake when the AJK governmental structure collapsed. Analysts noted how, in the aftermath of 2005 earthquake the local government system was exposed. To quote Akbar Zaidi, &#8220;the local government system and its elected bodies are part of the rubble along with the entire physical infra-structure of the area.&#8221;*

Due to the limited mandate of the AJK Legislative Assembly, the elected political leaders of Azad Kashmir essentially remain ostensible heads of the territory while the real power resides in Islamabad with the Ministry of Kashmir and Northern Areas (KANA). Naturally this requires an obedient AJK administration. Since the early 1990s, the decision-making authority and management of the Kashmir issue has been under the Pakistan military, the ISI and ISI backed militant organizations.

*In this unique case of &#8220;self-rule&#8221;, under the constitution, the elected representatives are acquiescent to the Kashmir Council controlled by Islamabad. The High Court and Supreme Court Judges can only be appointed by approval of the Ministry of Kashmir Affairs in Islamabad. The Minister of Kashmir Affairs can dismiss the Prime Minister, as can the Chief Secretary &#8211; another Islamabad appointee. Under Article 56, the President of Pakistan can dissolve the Legislative Assembly.*

Adding to the already dismal situation of human rights in AJK is the instability of the Northern Areas and the migration of these people into AJK. It can be argued that the appropriation of land in the Northern Areas by non-Kashmiri migrants with the tacit encouragement of the federal government and army has diminished economic opportunities for the local population. An externality of this has been an increase in sectarian tension between the majority Shia Muslims and the growing numbers of Sunnis in AJK and 2009 and 2010 have seen increasing tension and sectarian violence.

So is the human rights and law and order situation of AJK worse than that at the east of the line of control? Answers can range from &#8220;yes&#8221; to &#8220;maybe&#8221; to &#8220;no&#8221;. The truth is that this is a loaded question, and this sort of a comparison is hard to make. Reports and perspectives of AJK from the Indian side refer to AJK as Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. It is indeed true that there is a lack of consideration of human rights on both sides. Yet the facts are blurred by the political biases of both sides, and neutral reports become emotionally charged. External reporting by international watchdogs like Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch are a step behind. Research by organizations like the HRCP and reporting by local news channels is only just making headway.

*The 2006 Human Rights Watch report on Kashmir quotes a Muzaffarabad resident, &#8220;Pakistan says they are our friends and India is our enemy. I agree India is our enemy, but with friends like these, who needs enemies?&#8221;

AJK is yet to operate as a &#8216;free&#8217; territory given the way we control it. Yet, understandably, we are loathe to accept this reality and our mainstream media is usually silent about this. Our rhetoric on AJK remains inflated and questionable.*

'How free is my valley' from TFT


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## RollingStones

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> you fail to convince!
> 
> things will change for the better when occupational forces withdraw, and hindustan finally matures enough to the point where they will realize that granting occupied Kashmiris the existential right to self-determination is the only way forward --once hindustan did that, Pakistan would be compelled to do the same, even though we have no such protests on our side
> 
> 
> iOK is a very artificial relationship....the people have no love or affection for hindustan, and it shows via the images and news reports coming out from there
> 
> 
> and on that note, i commend the journalists who are covering and documenting the abuses being committed by the sissies



Absolute BS....there are NY Times articles and interviews with Kashmiris in the Pak part that clearly show their discontent with Pakistan. Their solution seems to have been to entirely migrate out of kashmir to other countries (asylum seekers in Britain is heavy among Pak kashmiris according to the NY Times article). Right now, POOR Kashmirs on both sides of the border are being exploited by Pak Army, ISI and the so-called separatist leaders. There are lots of forces at play here including feudal and religious forces. The solution is not simple. But I definitely feel a lot for the POOR Kashmiris, not the ones who emigrated or have their kids and money here in the US. Afghanistan, Pakistan, Parts of India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh are victims of extreme manipulation by world and local powers and local moneyed, feudal folks. Absence of strong local systems have made these areas into lawless, ungoverned, exploited societies. The need of the hour is for South Asia to empower its people in different regions. If a solution needs to be extended to Kashmir, it must be extended to every other culturally, ethnically similar regions in all of South Asia. It is better to have a federation of largely independent states rather than for the current federations such as India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka to cry that the other federation is bad. Empower every section of South Asia. If Kashmir's independence does not help solve that problem, no one in the world will support it. There are enough problems to handle already without the presence of several more administrations in the UN stalling more efforts at global peace and progress. Religion, Nationalistic movements are ALL secondary to the progress and prosperity of humanity. My opinion is that the partition of India in 1947 was a grave error which has led to a deterioration of progress and prosperity for the peoples of South Asia. It is appalling that people have used religion as the raison d'etra for a federation to demerge instead of looking at building a constitution for the federation that promotes rule of law, equal opportunity for everyone and reward for innovation and entrepreneurship.

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## karan.1970

TaimiKhan said:


> Sorry, but the intent was pretty much to derail it.
> 
> The news item is very clear about the cause of the violence, thus it was very idiotic of mentioning the RAW thing.
> 
> Anyway, i can sense the frustration, it happens, Indian members rarely get a chance to rejoice on news items such like that, compared to the ones we have to hear from IOK.



Well, about intent, you are entitled to your opinion and free to act on it as you see fit. I can only state my intent. Its upto you to believe it or not.

About cause of violence, well, there are similar causes highlighted by multiple sources for other things that get blamed on RAW. How could this be different. If this mess lasts for some more time, both you and I will see the accusations that start flying. 

About frustration, if I rejoiced innocent people getting killed in violent incidents in Pakistan, all i need to do is to go to the website of any Pakistani newspaper everyday to get my fill. There is enough of that happening in that part of the world. Fortunately, I dont get my kicks from such news.


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## Bhairava

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> well! those seperatists arent outsiders, they are Kashmiri citizens....you arent.
> 
> therefore *what you have to say about them, or for them is irrelevant at this point.*



So are you by any chance a Kashmiri...?? 



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Perhaps over a longer period of time the occupational forces will lose the will to keep their artificial hold over lands (and people) that are not indian, have no loyalty/affiliation to hindustan
> 
> it makes no sense to try to control people that genuinely hate the occupation



Time will tell.

We stay in Kashmir - last man,last bullet,last rupee and neither of these three is coming anytime sooner or later.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Gounder said:


> Do I need to convince anybody.?



*absolutely not*

but if you want outside people to respect your views or take any of what you said into consideration, then giving a cogent and convincing answer would be wise

me personally, i couldnt care less what you have to say since none of it is a mind-boggling breakthrough of any sort....just the usual hindstany rhetoric i've grown to get bored of

you say ''realities are changing''

for better, or for worse 



> Why do you wait for evil Hindoostan to do it..? After all you are the land of the pure..Why dont you lead us,lesser mortals, by example and declare P0K as a sovereign nation.?



let there be a referendum first

AZAD Kashmir already is running its own affairs for the most part, with some Pakistani support obviously. They have their own independent govt and constitution

I dont see any mass protests there.......worlds away from the sad realities across the LoC




> Frankly who cares about the separatists.?



of course you dont....but they exist, and they are large in numbers



> We are there for safeguarding those who are proud to call themselves Indians



Look out for your own countrys interests. From a saffron perspective, it's the noble thing to do. I dont have any qualms about it. 

Dont oppress Kashmiris and label them something they themselves say they are not. Dont expect to laathi-charge occupied peoples, then expect them to embrace you. 




> and ofcourse guard that strategic piece of real-estate.



replace 'guard' with suppress, oppress and/or humiliate then you would have your answer


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Gounder said:


> So are you by any chance a Kashmiri...??



from my mother's side, we have Kashmiri blood. Late grandfather hailed from district Neelum.

what about you my dravidian friend



> Time will tell.



it always does




> We stay in Kashmir - last man,last bullet,last rupee and neither of these three is coming anytime sooner or later.



your 'men' bullets and wrinkled rupee notes arent changing any realities in occupied Kashmir --definitely not in your favour, i must say

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## do_more

Indian gov should give financial incentive to kashmiri people who over planning to move to pakistan. They are making hell of the people who want to live in peaceful.


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## graphican

This is not the first time when these leaders are arrested by India. What has that resulted the past 200 times you did that? If you kill a leader, you produce hundreds more. Mahatma Gandhi was killed, but has his followers diminished? A leader is more of an ideology than personality. Personalities come and go but Ideas exist survive and pass on generations after generations. Its the 3rd generation in Kashmir that is chanting slogans AZADI.


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## BATMAN

do_more said:


> Indian gov should give financial incentive to kashmiri people who over planning to move to pakistan. They are making hell of the people who want to live in peaceful.



Just organize a fund and i'll contribute.
Their can't be better use of money than helping a victim of terrorism. 

Apparently Indian govt. cannot afford passport costs for such victims.


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## Bhairava

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> from my mother's side, we have Kashmiri blood. Late grandfather hailed from district Neelum.
> 
> what about you my dravidian friend



I am fully an Indian..not "a part" in any way. 




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> your 'men' bullets and *wrinkled rupee notes* arent changing any realities in occupied Kashmir --definitely not in your favour, i must say



Our men are not firing any bullets mate..just tear gas shells with kid gloves.It just depends on these paid goons whether we have to take the kid gloves off or not.

BTW our "wrinkled" rupee note is worth more than twice as your "fresh-from-mint" Rupee.


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## karan.1970

graphican said:


> This is not the first time when these leaders are arrested by India. What has that resulted the past 200 times you did that? If you kill a leader, you produce hundreds more. Mahatma Gandhi was killed, but has his followers diminished? A leader is more of an ideology than personality. Personalities come and go but Ideas exist survive and pass on generations after generations. Its the 3rd generation in Kashmir that is chanting slogans AZADI.



Ideology, I agree, does not get arrested or dies with the leader. But these arrests are not of ideological leaders. These guys getting arrested are the leaders of the band of thugs who were paralyzing the life in the valley. Here, you cut off the head of Medusa, the rest of the body follows..

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Gounder said:


> I am fully an Indian..not "a part" in any way.



good, I'm happy for you.

Kashmiris aren't wholly-owned or 'part' hindustany.




> Our men are not firing any bullets mate..





BULL-SHYTE




> It just depends on these paid goons whether we have to take the kid gloves off or not.



i asked you for evidence to prove they are 'paid goons'

you still havent done it...

as for the ''gloves'' part, it would be wiser to do that on your naxalites and other rebel movements; Kashmir is a disputed territory and should be treated as thusly



> BTW our "wrinkled" rupee note is worth more than twice as your "fresh-from-mint" Rupee.



yet you'll never be able to buy the Kashmiris


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## Abu Zolfiqar

S_O_C_O_M said:


> India Deserves int'l pressure on Referendum in Kashmir[/Over fifty people were injured when CRPF troops and police burst teargas shells and opened fire upon protesters in Shopian. Hundreds of people after offering congregational Friday prayers at Jamai Masjid staged pro-freedom and anti-India demonstrations. They shouted, We want freedom, Go India Go, and other slogans.



ahhh yes, Shopian.

same place where those young girls were raped, and tossed in the river

incidents like that negate the need for ''ISI meddling''


yet the hindustanys prefer to use force and artificial strangle-hold over the existentialists

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## sergente rehan

All the indian memebres clearly ignore the ground reality and told us to see it! it's really left me speechless....how could they didn't made it?

And what a big hypocrisy showing up some protestants going agaisnt the armed police and militry personal and ignoring completly the massacre, raping and all the horrible acts against the innocent civilians!

The only area where the civilians are brutally oppressed and killed is indian occupied Kashmire not the pakistani or chinese side.


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## RamGorur

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> well! those seperatists arent outsiders, they are Kashmiri citizens....you arent.
> 
> therefore what you have to say about them, or for them is irrelevant at this point.


Well there is no such thing as Kashmiri 'citizens'. You are either Indian citizen or you are not. Since as per Indian constitution Kashmir is an integral part of India and since by all canons of international law, territorial integrity is non-negotiable, we, the 'outsiders' are very much relevant to the question of Kashmir solution.

Also, the Government of India is not an alien entity from Pluto. They represent us, the 'outsiders' as well as the 'insiders', and are selected by us, the 'outsiders' and the 'insiders'. So any time you are negotiating with Indian Government, you are actually negotiating with us. That's Democracy 101 for you.

Try again, tiger.



> Perhaps over a longer period of time the occupational forces will lose the will to keep their artificial hold over lands (and people) that are not indian, have no loyalty/affiliation to hindustan
> 
> it makes no sense to try to control people that genuinely hate the occupation


Some Baluchistanis also do not consider themselves as Pakistanis. What are your plans for them?

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## brahmastra

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> well! those seperatists arent outsiders, they are Kashmiri citizens....you arent.
> 
> therefore what you have to say about them, or for them is irrelevant at this point.
> 
> Perhaps over a longer period of time the occupational forces will lose the will to keep their artificial hold over lands (and people) that are not indian, have no loyalty/affiliation to hindustan
> 
> 
> it makes no sense to try to control people that genuinely hate the occupation



you need to wake up from your dream about Indian kashmir .
those stone throwers (of course paid) are only in 7 towns of 3 district of entire Jammu and Kashmir.they are not even 5% of entire population of J&K.

meanwhile. there are are news from J&K that now shop owners and workers who earn on day to day bases started pelting stones on paid stone throwers. Isn't it good?


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## brahmastra

its laughable when pakistani says to hold 'Referendum in Kashmir' without fulfilling pre-conditions by pakistanyes.

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## do_more

Even afghanistan is asking to impose sanction on pakistan.


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## third eye

Where is the relevance of referendum when J&K does not exist in its original form ?

Parts of it are with India, Pak, China and parts ceded by Pak to China. We simply have to reconcile to our geography and move on . Nothing has changed on the ground nor ever will.


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## absolute_nutter

sergente rehan said:


> All the indian memebres clearly ignore the ground reality and told us to see it! it's really left me speechless....how could they didn't made it?
> 
> And what a big hypocrisy showing up some protestants going agaisnt the armed police and militry personal and ignoring completly the massacre, raping and all the horrible acts against the innocent civilians!


Protests happen only in kashmir valley which has predominantly muslim population which is obviously influenced by pro-pakistani separatists. There are other parts to Jammu and Kashmir. There aren't any protests there. 


> The only area where the civilians are brutally oppressed and killed is indian occupied Kashmire not the pakistani or chinese side.



In pakistan occupied kashmir, people adopted gun culture. They need no security force to kill when they kill among themselves.


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## karan.1970

9 militants killed in Uri Lastupdate:- Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com

Varmul, Aug 30: Army on Monday claimed to have foiled an infiltration bid by killing nine militants in Uri sector of north Kashmir&#8217;s Varmul district.
Defence spokesman Lt. Col J.S. Brar told Greater Kashmir that last evening troopers noticed movement of militants who were trying to sneak into this side of Line of Control.
&#8220;On being challenged the militants opened fire which was retailed, triggering a gunfight and so far nine militants have been killed,&#8221; he said, adding that operation was continuing.
Police sources said that troopers of 2nd Raj Rifles noticed movement of militants in Baba Gali, Behak Litter, area of Boniyar last evening. Searches have been spread to vast area to look for more militants who are said to be part of the group.
&#8220;The operation has been called off to retrieve bodies of the militants. It may take some time as live ammunition is tied to the bodies of the slain militants,&#8221; Senior Superintendent of Police, Varmul, Mansoor Ahmad Untoo told Greater Kashmir.
*Another gunfight broke out in Vijay Nallah area of Athwato Bandipora this evening.*
Police sources said that the encounter started after troops of 9-Para *intercepted a group of three to four militants*. &#8220;So far there is no causality on any side,&#8221; sources said.

==========================================

I know there will be standard claims by Pakistani members about fake encounters and innocent deaths, but looks like something big is going down. May be a payback for instigating recent Kashmir incidents. (At least the Indian establishment believes that)


EDIT: Made it a separate thread since the encounter was significantly bigger than the normal 2-3 infiltrators getting killed.

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## anathema

karan.1970 said:


> 9 militants killed in Uri Lastupdate:- Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com
> 
> Varmul, Aug 30: Army on Monday claimed to have foiled an infiltration bid by killing nine militants in Uri sector of north Kashmirs Varmul district.
> Defence spokesman Lt. Col J.S. Brar told Greater Kashmir that last evening troopers noticed movement of militants who were trying to sneak into this side of Line of Control.
> On being challenged the militants opened fire which was retailed, triggering a gunfight and so far nine militants have been killed, he said, adding that operation was continuing.
> Police sources said that troopers of 2nd Raj Rifles noticed movement of militants in Baba Gali, Behak Litter, area of Boniyar last evening. Searches have been spread to vast area to look for more militants who are said to be part of the group.
> The operation has been called off to retrieve bodies of the militants. It may take some time as live ammunition is tied to the bodies of the slain militants, Senior Superintendent of Police, Varmul, Mansoor Ahmad Untoo told Greater Kashmir.
> *Another gunfight broke out in Vijay Nallah area of Athwato Bandipora this evening.*
> Police sources said that the encounter started after troops of 9-Para *intercepted a group of three to four militants*. So far there is no causality on any side, sources said.
> 
> ==========================================
> 
> I know there will be standard claims by Pakistani members about fake encounters and innocent deaths, but looks like something big is going down. May be a payback for instigating recent Kashmir incidents. (At least the Indian establishment believes that)
> 
> 
> EDIT: Made it a separate thread since the encounter was significantly bigger than the normal 2-3 infiltrators getting killed.




9 ?? Thats a pretty significant number.....good ridance....and all i can see is the Israeli surveillance is working pretty well....


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## karan.1970

There seems to be another encounter also under way.. 4 terrorists cordoned off..

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## Gentle Typhoon

*We Feel Completely Safe: Sikh-Kashmiris

We will not leave Kashmir and Kashmiriyat at any cost.*







> The communal harmony and brotherhood for which Kashmir is known for, was once again witnessed when Muslims chased away some miscreants who pelted stones on two Sikh houses in the Jawahar Nagar area in uptown Srinagar (Kashmir) on Saturday evening (August 21, 2010). The residents of Rainawari have also offered protection and security to the Sikhs.
> 
> According to locals, some unidentified persons pelted stones on two houses near DAV School, Jawahar Nagar, late in the evening. *The owners of the houses called their Muslim neighbors, who came out with sticks and chased away the miscreants.*
> 
> "The miscreants wanted to add to the tension in the wake of anonymous threatening letters. *They fled away on seeing people in large numbers with sticks,"* said Muhammad Lateef Dar, a local.
> 
> In order to create a sense of security among the Sikhs, some of the Muslim neighbors slept on the balconies of the houses which were targeted by the miscreants.
> 
> In the morning, the mohalla committee members gathered and strongly condemned the incident. "The Committee constituted a team to find the elements involved in the incident. The committee will also monitor the safety of the Sikh community in the area during the night hours," the locals said.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Sikh population of the area has hailed the efforts of the Muslim community. *"We feel completely safe and protected as long as our Muslim brothers are with us. We know some miscreants want to create confusion and disturb the communal harmony,"* said Harvinder Singh, a local.
> 
> However, police denied any such incident and termed it as "planned effort" to create panic in the area.
> 
> "There was no protest or stone pelting in the area from which it can be gauged that minority community was targeted. A boy had thrown a stone unintentionally which broke the glass pane and there was nothing else," said SHO Rajbagh Suhail Ahmad.
> 
> He said he personally went to the spot and offered security to the Sikhs living there but they refused it. "I even told them if they wanted to lodge an FIR, police will register it, but they refused. Some miscreants want to give an unhealthy touch to it, which won't be allowed at any cost," he added.
> 
> Meanwhile, people in Rainawari visited the houses of Sikhs and offered security to them. People told them not to feel scared in the prevailing situation. "Some miscreants want to create communal divide between the two communities and this won't be allowed at any cost," the Sikhs were told and assured of full protection and security.
> 
> The Sikh community members reposed their faith in their Muslim neighbours.


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## BATMAN

^^ Not really, their are so many different replies to my query and non is answering the question!
How can her son perform his fundamental religious obligations if he is not allowed passport. 

As long the criminal record against his mother is concerned all sound fake.
She has a history of suffering by the hands of Indian army and has been courageous enough to raise her voice.

It is violation of basic and women rights by state on the basis of religion.
world should take notice of this stately hypocrisy.

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## sab

BATMAN said:


> Why should she not be allowed to have passport for her son?
> Just because he is a Muslim?
> *What if he wish to go for Hajj? *
> It is about time that Muslims in India should fight for a separate home land, if state refuse them their basic rights and no religious freedom.



OOOPsssss..............GOI cant allow them to contaminate the sacred land of our holly place......so they can not be given passport.

Stop lecturing for Muslims in India...We are far better here than your holy soil...

Religious freedom doesnt mean one should dictate others to use purdah or not to send girls in school. These types of leaders are present everywhere who ask boys of others to give blood (to go to street and pelt stones and get shot )while sending away their own children to foreign far from the fire they set.


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## calcutta

the warhead of a agni should be removed-this hypocrite stuffed into it and it should be fired west [preferably on the ISI headquarters] with a note on it "come to receive my monthly payment"


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## Mohammed Irfan

BATMAN said:


> ^^ Not really, their are so many different replies to my query and non is answering the question!
> How can her son perform his fundamental religious obligations if he is not allowed passport.
> 
> As long the criminal record against his mother is concerned all sound fake.
> She has a history of suffering by the hands of Indian army and has been courageous enough to raise her voice.
> 
> It is violation of basic and women rights by state on the basis of religion.
> world should take notice of this stately hypocrisy.




if your only question is how can her son perform hajj without passport then let me give you the answer. According to Islam he can send someone else for hajj on his behalf. as he is unable to travel there without passport. i hope this answer your main question.

anyways the thread is not about her son going for hajj so do not try to bring hajj over here and if you are really so much concerned about the fundamental obligation of muslims then there are 170 million muslims in pakistan and out of which atleast 70% of them may not be able to peform hajj due to passport or finacian issue. so I woud recommond you to look after them first and then think about muslims in India ( and India includes kashmir).


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Gilani: Illegal detentions cannot deter Kashmiris ​*
Written by KMS 
Monday, 30 August 2010 23:03 







Srinagar, August 30, 2010: The Chairman of All Parties Hurriyat Conference, Syed Ali Gilani, has said that illegal detention of pro-freedom leaders and activists by the authorities cannot break Kashmiris resolve to get freedom from India.

Syed Ali Gilani, in a media interview in Srinagar, said that the puppet administration was resorting to autocratic tactics to crush the ongoing movement. It was high time for India to accept the ground realities. The people of Kashmir are struggling for their inalienable right to self-determination, he added. 


He that the struggle of Kashmiri people had entered into a decisive phase. He said that the ongoing movement would continue till India accepted Kashmir as a dispute, withdrew its troopers from the occupied territory and released all the illegally detained Hurriyet leaders and activists.

Syed Ali Gilani said that the mass participation of people in "Quit Kashmir Movement" had frustrated the occupation authorities. Indian troopers and police have been given unbridled powers to kill and harass the unarmed Kashmiris, he maintained.

Emphasising that the sacrifices rendered by over one-lakh martyrs should serve as a glaring example of Kashmiris resolve, he said India could not muzzle the just voice of Kashmiri people through use of brute force.

He further said that India was delaying the resolution of Kashmir dispute by projecting it as an economic issue just to hoodwink the international community.

On the other hand, the Jammu and Kashmir Tehreek-e-Hurriyet, headed by Syed Ali Gilani, has hailed China for disallowing the Chief of Indias Northern military command based in the territory to enter the country. A spokesman of Tehreek-e-Hurriyet, in a statement issued in Srinagar, appealed the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) to adopt the same policy and make India realize that its occupation of Kashmir was illegal.

Hurriyet leader and the Vice Chairman of Jammu and Kashmir Muslim League, Masarrat Alam Butt, has reiterated to continue the freedom struggle till its logical conclusion, despite all odds.

Masarrat Alam Butt in a media interview condemned the imposition of curfew and restrictions by the occupation authorities in the territory.

"Indian troops have unleashed a reign of terror in the occupied territory. They open fire straight at unarmed and innocent Kashmiris, he added.

He said that New Delhi wanted to suppress the ongoing freedom movement through use of brute force. India can not deter Kashmiris resolve to get freedom from its illegal occupation through use of brute force, he maintained.


He said that as many as sixty-four innocent Kashmiri youth, most of them students and children, had been martyred by the occupation forces so far during the current agitation. he maintained that the Sikh community was fully safe in the occupied Valley.

Dukhtaran-e-Millat Jammu and Kashmir has denounced the illegal detention of its Chairperson, Aasiya Andrabi and her close associate by the authorities.

The Acting Chairperson of Dukhtaran-e-Millat, Riffat Fatima, in a statement issued in Srinagar, termed the illegal detention of Aasiya as the frustration of the puppet administration. The authorities are trying to suppress the ongoing freedom movement through use of brute force, she added.

She said that the administration was subjecting Aasiya Andrabi to political vendetta and had been detaining her husband for the last seventeen years. Riffat condemned the illegal detention of DeM Chairperson during Ramadan in past three years.

The spokesman of Jamaat-e-Islami Jammu and Kashmir, in a statement issued in Srinagar, condemned the unlawful arrest of Aasiya. He urged India to settle the Kashmir dispute in accordance with the aspirations of Kashmiri people by implementing the relevant United Nations resolutions.

On the other hand, the spokesman of Press Guild of Kashmir in a statement flayed Indian police for torturing a scribe, working with a local daily. He warned of worst consequences if the police did not stop subjecting the reporters and photojournalists to torture.

Indian troops in their fresh act of state terrorism martyred six innocent Kashmiri youth in Baramulla district. The troops martyred the youth in Uri area of the district during a military operation.

A trooper of Indian Border Security Force (BSF), Lokesh Kheti, committed suicide by shooting himself with his service rifle while on duty at Khayara Post in Samba district. This raised the number of such deaths amongst Indian troops and police personnel in the occupied territory to 191 since January 2007.

Indian police have arrested eleven people including Hurriyet leader and the Acting President of Jammu and Kashmir Democratic Political Movement, advocate Muhammad Shafi Reshi, from different places. The police arrested Muhammad Shafi Reshi along with four other people from Baba Demb area of Srinagar. Reshi is a member of the Jammu and Kashmir High Court Bar Association.


The police arrested two students for raising anti-India and pro-liberation slogans at the gate of Jammu University. A police team conducted raid at Khatianka Talab area of Jammu city and arrested the students identified as Qamran and Shafiq. The police also arrested five persons in Handwara for participating in anti-India demonstrations.

On the other hand, people took to streets in Habba Kadal, Chota Bazar, Shaheed Gunj, Karfali Mohalla, Kani Kadal, Islamabad, Bijbehara, Sangam, Qaimoh, Kulgam, Pulwama, Kakapora, Pampore, Awantipora, Tral, Kupwara, Handwara and Baramulla areas and staged pro-freedom demonstrations. Indian troops and police personnel resorted to heavy baton charge and excessive teargas shelling to disperse the protestors at many places, injuring several people.

Locals said that the troops and policemen broke windowpanes of many houses and damaged the vehicles passing through the areas. Residents of Islamabad said that the troops smashed windowpanes of several houses and a Mosque at Ghaziabad. In Tahab area of Pulwama, a hawaldar of 8th battalion Armed Police was beaten to pulp by CRPF troopers after he rejected their chasing away an eight-y

Gilani: Illegal detentions cannot deter Kashmiris


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## Dr sim

heart warming....hope peace comes to this heaven on earth


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## RamGorur

BATMAN said:


> ^^ Not really, their are so many different replies to my query and non is answering the question!
> How can her son perform his fundamental religious obligations if he is not allowed passport.


In a secular country law, can't be bended for religious purpose. If performance of his 'fundamental religious obligations' was so much of a concern to his mother (and not you), she should have stayed away from anti-state activities.



> As long the criminal record against his mother is concerned all sound fake.
> She has a history of suffering by the hands of Indian army and has been courageous enough to raise her voice.


If you are saying then it must be true.


> It is violation of basic and women rights by state on the basis of religion.
> world should take notice of this stately hypocrisy.


No right is absolute and all rights come with obligations.

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## somebozo

Facebook, YouTube used as weapons in Kashmir fight
By AIJAZ HUSSAIN | AP 

Published: Aug 27, 2010 18:01 Updated: Aug 27, 2010 18:01 

SRINAGAR, India: Before hitting the streets, Ahmed reaches for his two essential protest tools: a scarf to mask his face and a cell phone camera to show the world what is happening.

The 23-year-old, who posts videos to YouTube under names such as "oppressedkashimir1," is part of a wave of Web-savvy protesters in Indian-controlled Kashmir who have begun using social networking to publicize their fight and keep fellow demonstrators energized and focused.

"(I am) an anonymous soldier of Kashmir's resistance movement, using Facebook and YouTube to fight India," Ahmed said, showing off his most recent work, a montage of protest videos and photos set to London-based Sami Yousuf's popular song, "Try Not to Cry Little One." Like other protesters, he declined to give his full name for fear of arrest.

The last three months have seen an upsurge in violent protests against Indian rule in Kashmir, a region divided between India and Pakistan and claimed by both.

The protesters, mostly youths wearing jeans and hooded shirts, call themselves "sangbazan," or the stone pelters. They have covered Srinagar and other major Kashmiri towns with pro-independence graffiti and mounted fierce stone barrages against security forces, sometimes surrounding armored vehicles and throwing stones inside through the firing slats.

At least 64 people, mostly teenage boys and young men in their 20s, have been killed. Prabhakar Tripathi, a spokesman for the paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force, said it's difficult to respond to such attacks. "We use bullets in self-defense as a last resort," he said.

With student discussion groups banned and thousands of security operatives believed to be snooping on protesters, the youth of Kashmir are using the Internet as a virtual meeting place.

Social networking sites, though presumably under Indian surveillance, have proven to be more effective than any previous form of political communication in Kashmir, said Shuddabrata Sengupta, a New Delhi-based writer who follows new media issues in India.

"The struggle on the streets and in the corners of cyberspace have a mutually complementary nature," he said.

The stone pelters use Facebook to debate the weekly calendar of protests, discuss ways to hold Kashmiri leaders accountable and trade daily news updates, some of questionable reliability.

One user sparked a debate about the role of Kashmiri intellectuals in the fight by posting a picture of the Palestinian-American literary theorist Edward Said symbolically throwing a stone near the Israel-Lebanon border. In Kashmir, many intellectuals do not openly identify with the struggle, though privately they may embrace it.

Another user, whose Facebook name is "Kale Kharab," a Kashmiri term for a hothead, recently posted methods to counter the effects of tear gas and administer first aid to a shooting victim.

"They're shaping the political discourse and raising the bar for pro-independence political groups in Kashmir and authorities in New Delhi," said Sheikh Showkat Hussain, a law professor at the University of Kashmir.

Marketing and information technology experts estimate at least 40,000 Kashmir residents are on Facebook. The page for "Bekaar Jamaath," or the Idle Group, amassed about 12,000 members in four months before being hacked, removed and re-established recently.

The posting of well-produced Kashmiri protest videos began more than two years ago with the expansion of Internet service in the remote Himalayan region and access to better cell phone technology.

One of the first videos combined images of women and children wailing at graveyards and the bodies of slain Kashmiris with a moving song written by Abdul Ahad Azad, an early 20th-century Kashmiri revolutionary poet. Two other videos were set to singer Chris de Burgh's "Revolution" and "Oh My Brave Hearts." Now young Kashmiris are uploading video shot furtively from windows showing government forces damaging vehicles and property during curfews, when there are no journalists around.

"Because of this video evidence that cannot be denied, some people outside Kashmir have started believing the horrors we have been living under," said Rayees, a young protester who uploaded a clip to Facebook showing paramilitary forces hurling stones and smashing the windows of homes in a Srinagar neighborhood.

"There are aberrations," said Tripathi, the paramilitary spokesman. "The commanders in their areas of responsibility have been directed to listen to the public grievances and see if people are facing any problems." Another video of intense stone throwing by protesters, set to the Everlast song "Stone in My Hand," has become a hit with the demonstrators and made its shadowy creator &#8212; known only as a computer engineer &#8212; a revered figure among them.

"He made it appear as if the song was composed for Kashmir," said Shabir, a college student and stone thrower. "He showed us how one can be more meaningful and imaginative and yet continue to be a stone pelter." _


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## somebozo

One question?? If india is all that democractic and fair then why are kashmiris struggling so violently?? All things blamed on pakistan is a formula not to last long..The hitler eventually had to come down with his blame it all on jews.


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## k7x

somebozo said:


> One question?? If india is all that democractic and fair then why are kashmiris struggling so violently?? All things blamed on pakistan is a formula not to last long..The hitler eventually had to come down with his blame it all on jews.



It is world known fact that Indian army was guarding the border alone prior to start of insurgency which is openly supported by Pak. 

The only reason, the force moved to the valley from the border is to protect those innocent who are killed by those terrorist/freedom fighter.. .....(ones terrorist is anothers freedom fighter) 

" ... this is the fact , if that is not the case why lakhs of Kashmir pundits have to leave the valley . they were selectively targeted and it is duty of our army to save all "

Now all that the kashmirs want is that force to quit the valley because they feel that they are oppressed . 

see if the insurgancy has not started the amry would have stayed in the border itself .. and there would be more freedom to people.

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## do_more

wow camera phones in toiletless india...


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## ps80

Too many threads on Kashmir....you post one headline (pro-Indian or pro-Pakistani...regardless) and then unnecessary India-Pakistan bashing starts in full swing... ofcourse there is some good information there as well.

Can we have one thread/sticky for Kashmir related news? Good news or garbage (propaganda)...everything at one place. 

Just a suggestion.

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## booo

for all those who advice violence and stone pelting during protests... things will never change.

Stone pelters... best of luck.


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## Patrician

Hell ya baby!

Now we're talking!


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## storm seeker

i see another FAKE encounter!!!!!!
and how many soldiers killed yesterday ???


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## Patrician

storm seeker said:


> i see another FAKE encounter!!!!!!
> and how many soldiers killed yesterday ???



One sees strange things in dreams. In what kind of a fake encounter do the aggressive party's soldiers die? Unless you are suggesting that IA first killed 'innocent civilians' and then killed its own soldiers. If that's what you are suggesting, save me the labour of a laughing facepalm!


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## anathema

30 hrs gunbattle ends in Kashmir's Uri district - India News - IBNLive



> After more than 30 hours of fierce gunbattle, the Uri encounter ended. All nine infiltrators have been killed and the bodies have been handed over to the police. It is the biggest infiltration bid foiled this year.
> 
> *Twelve AK rifles, five GPS units, two satellite phones, one mobile phone, eight radio sets, Rs 1 lakh and a computer hard disk were recovered from the infiltrators, sources said.
> *
> The major encounter started on Sunday evening. The army on Sunday foiled a major infiltration bid in the area late.



Thats some heavy gear !!! Wonder what the hard disk contains....


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## Abu Zolfiqar




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## anathema

Patrician said:


> One sees strange things in dreams. In what kind of a fake encounter do the aggressive party's soldiers die? Unless you are suggesting that IA first killed 'innocent civilians' and then killed its own soldiers. If that's what you are suggesting, save me the labour of a laughing facepalm!



Pat -- ignore yaaar  ...he's really not looking for an explanation -- doesnt matter what you say, he will stick to the fake encounter story.


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## Abu Zolfiqar




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## storm seeker

anathema said:


> Pat -- ignore yaaar  ...he's really not looking for an explanation -- doesnt matter what you say, he will stick to the fake encounter story.



my dear i never said that ur soldiers got killed in encounter ... encounter ki nobat hi nahin ati the brave soldiers put their shoes on their heads and run away . the soooooooo called militants are just innocent boys want to get sm job . i do read kashmir magazine regularly !!!


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## Patrician

SOCOM starts threads and then vanishes!

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## su-47

what amazes me is that no matter how much of a mess pakistan is in, some still find some pleasure bringing up Kashmir! Trust me, Indian controlled Kashmir is in a better state than most of Pakistan now.

And as for international pressure, so far no one, not even Pakistan's Arab friends, have pressured India over Kashmir. Harsh reality in this world is, power talks. 

As for Kashmir, yes it has problems now, and will have some problems for some more time. but once the Indian economic growth starts hitting there as well, more and more people will be pro-india. what we need is more economic focus on Kashmir.


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## NoEscape

storm seeker said:


> my dear i never said that ur soldiers got killed in encounter ... encounter ki nobat hi nahin ati the brave soldiers put their shoes on their heads and run away . the *soooooooo called militants are just innocent boys want to get sm job *. i do read kashmir magazine regularly !!!



And Pakistan is providing them Jobs, this way....

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## storm seeker

su-47 said:


> what amazes me is that no matter how much of a mess pakistan is in, some still find some pleasure bringing up Kashmir! Trust me, Indian controlled Kashmir is in a better state than most of Pakistan now.
> 
> And as for international pressure, so far no one, not even Pakistan's Arab friends, have pressured India over Kashmir. Harsh reality in this world is, power talks.
> 
> As for Kashmir, yes it has problems now, and will have some problems for some more time. but once the Indian economic growth starts hitting there as well, more and more people will be pro-india. what we need is more economic focus on Kashmir.



tum logon ko aik bara mukhlisana mashwara hai .......leave kashmir and be happy ......let us live and let urselves live ....kashmiris will never let u live peacefully....2 countries are just setting a good cenema for the entire world


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## storm seeker

hey are those stones made in pakistan ....still the same chant.may be the militants go from pakistan but they are not sent by pakistan,and mind it they are not trained militants but they are washing ur army up in a better way ...


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## flaming arrow

storm seeker said:


> my dear i never said that ur soldiers got killed in encounter ... encounter ki nobat hi nahin ati the brave soldiers put their shoes on their heads and run away . the soooooooo called militants are just innocent boys want to get sm job . i do read kashmir magazine regularly !!!



And who else better then the pakistani's can provide the payrole to these young lads...even at the stake of thier nation's poor who are drastically suffering from the raving floods the pakistani think tanks sitting in ISI cant get enough....read more kashmir magazines it will quench your thirst atleast..
and ya about brave soldiers putting up thier shoes and running away  i was not asking about army

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## karan.1970

storm seeker said:


> hey are those stones made in pakistan ....still the same chant.may be the militants go from pakistan but they are not sent by pakistan,*and mind it they are not trained militants but they are washing ur army up in a better way *...



how would you know 

But anyway, good.. Indian army is getting some training like your forces are in KP..


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## flaming arrow

storm seeker said:


> hey are those stones made in pakistan ....still the same chant.may be the militants go from pakistan but they are not sent by pakistan,and mind it they are not trained militants but they are washing ur army up in a better way ...



They are helping us get enough real time experience with raging guns good for our soldiers...my deep respect to them atleast they dont surrender like the other and love falling to our bullets


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## storm seeker

karan.1970 said:


> how would you know
> 
> But anyway, good.. Indian army is getting some training like your forces are in KP..



i know boy ... i know
any way in kp now thats our turn there .....they are fighting there own brothers ...... u know our army's major share is of pukhtoons . so they cant beat us talibans vs talibans


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## BTG

If I am not mistaken, the geographical boundaries under which the resolutions were first adopted in UN, no longer exist currently. If there should ever be any referendum, we have to change the geographical boundaries first to return the princely state of J&K to its 1947 / 1948 form, which nobody (India or Pak or China) will ever agree to do...

This request for ref's are so 50's and 60's slogans....


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## BTG

storm seeker said:


> tum logon ko aik bara mukhlisana mashwara hai .......leave kashmir and be happy ......let us live and let urselves live ....kashmiris will never let u live peacefully....2 countries are just setting a good cenema for the entire world



I am sorry... but why shd India leave Kashmir... Just bcos Kashmiri's will never let India live peacefully... I would assume that the economic growth of India even during the so called Kashmir freedom struggle, indicates that a protest in Kashmir (Only in the valley, not in Jammu, not in Ladakh and not in any other part of J&K) CANNOT have any significant impact on the rest of India...


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## Capt.Popeye

Originally Posted by Patrician
"SOCOM starts threads and then vanishes! "

Yeah, first he is SOCOM; then SOGONE.
kinda hit'n'run guy.


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## Ruag

Nine infiltrators killed, gunfight still on



> Nine guerrillas have so far been killed in an ongoing gunfight between a band of infiltrators and army troops in north Kashmir's Uri sector, defence sources said Monday.
> 
> 'So far, nine terrorists have been killed in the gunfight that erupted when a heavily armed group of infiltrating terrorists was challenged in Uri sector of the LOC (Line of Control) by the alert troops of the army yesterday (Sunday). The gunfight is still on,' the sources said late Monday evening.
> 
> Twelve AK-47 rifles, five GPS sets, two satellite phones, eight radio sets, one cell phone and Rs.1 lakh in Indian currency have been recovered from the slain terrorists, they said, adding the identity of the slain terrorists was being established.



Nine infiltrators killed, gunfight still on

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Congratulations fellow countrymen! May more of these terrorists face the wrath of the Indian Army.

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## Patrician

storm seeker said:


> tum logon ko aik bara mukhlisana mashwara hai .......leave kashmir and be happy ......let us live and let urselves live ....kashmiris will never let u live peacefully....2 countries are just setting a good cenema for the entire world



Had you seen my post in the other thread...

Anyways, lemme post it for you again!

Na India kabhi kashmir chhodega aur Na hee Pakistan.

Kyun?


1. Hamare north India kee kai lifeline rivers kasmir se nikalti hain. Jinnah said "Kashmir is Pakistan's jugular". Well, kashmir is our jugular too. Water alone is a reason strategic enough to make us kill or die for kashmir.

2. Hamne jis din kashmir chhoda, us din har tom, dick and harry will raise a shout for a seperate state. India was founded on the very principle of 'unity in diversity'. That principle will be negated and then it'll be impossible for GoI to suppress voices of silly dissent.

3. Kahmiris are themselves divided about what they want. Jammu and Ladakh have no grudges whatsoever. It's only a few people in the valley who have a problem.

4. In modern world big and powerful nations do not permit redrawing of boundaries so easily. USSR case was different. They broke up from inside. Not as a result of any foreign aggression.

SO WHAT's THE SOLUTION?

mujhe sirf ek hee realistic solution dikhta hai,

India apna kashmir rakhega (militarily). Pakistan apna kashmir rakhega (militarily). LoC will be made irrelevant permitting people to people contact just like in a single state. In short, kashmir will be united but under firm control of India and Pakistan.

A few modalities of the arrangement (such as seperate flag, constitution, currency etc.) can be worekd out. The three subjects Defence, Foreign Policy and communication will be controlled by India and Pakistan in their respective parts of the state.

It will be a very complex and detailed solution which will require huge concessions from both India and Pakistan.

And trust me guys India and Pakistan were willing to accept this very solution during talks between Mushy and MMS.

In the end,

India: happy because it controls the water, the land validating the 'unity in diversity' principle

Pakistan: happy because it gives them legitimate control of their part of kashmir in an internationally recognised way. Promised better relations with India, access to Indian market and what not. Just think about the economic opportunity it will bring for Pakistan.

Kashmiris: happy because it will give them the seperate identity they are seeking while getting economic benefits from both India and Pakistan.

Trust me friends, isse zyada kisi bhi party (India, Pakistan or Kashmiris) ko kuch nahin mil sakta.

Yahi ek solution bacha hai. Pasand hai toh accept karo. Nahin pasand.....well.....toh 63 saal se toh hum dekh hee rahe hain...........


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## Patrician

Capt.Popeye said:


> Originally Posted by Patrician
> "SOCOM starts threads and then vanishes! "
> 
> Yeah, first he is SOCOM; then SOGONE.
> kinda hit'n'run guy.



Make that Spit-and-Run


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## paritosh

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> ahhh yes, Shopian.
> 
> same place where those young girls were raped, and tossed in the river
> 
> incidents like that negate the need for ''ISI meddling''
> 
> 
> yet the hindustanys prefer to use force and artificial strangle-hold over the existentialists



Abu...let us not take these cases in isolation...there are many cases of human rights violation in Kashmir...but what do you expect out of one of the most militarized zones in the world?
The Kashmiris have been suffering for quite some time now...we as Indians know that...the sad situation of today has followed a logical chain of sad events...putting the blame on any one party would be unjust...
the rise of militancy supported by Pakistan in the late 80s and 90s led to the large military presence that we have today...the IA fought a bloody battle in quelling the militancy...having an attrition rate of 2:1...the only logical thing was to use brute force...while it seems that the militancy problem has been temporarily stalled...the large military presence in the valley...has metamorphised into a new problem..
people with guns being given a free run is always a problem...be it FATA...or the IA with AFSP act...
while the solution'd require maturity on all sides...it's still far...


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## Urbanized Greyhound

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> ahhh yes, Shopian.
> 
> same place where those young girls were raped, and tossed in the river
> 
> incidents like that negate the need for ''ISI meddling''
> 
> 
> *yet the hindustanys prefer to use force and artificial strangle-hold over the existentialists*



It was well proved later that the shopian incident was a criminal case and as it is with the seperatists they look for reasons to incite the local population against the IA and the administration with a magnifying glass......it was a good sign that level headed people didnt fall for it....as for the bolded part I can only repeat what the other members constantly say....the sooner you get used to the status quo the better for peace in S.asia......


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## karan.1970

storm seeker said:


> i know boy ... i know
> any way in kp now thats our turn there .....they are fighting there own brothers ...... *u know our army's major share is of pukhtoons . so they cant beat us talibans vs talibans *




Are you calling the Pakhtoons of PA as Taliban?? I would be careful with that generalization....


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## su-47

hey, i dont care what anyone says, I believe our military over fanboys online anyday.

Well done to IA for defending India against this scum. Hopefully more terrorists can be killed. enough to deter them from attacking india.

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## EjazR

*Kashmir Images :: Details*

Srinagar, Aug 30: The Commission of Inquiry (CI) to probe into the killing of 17 protestors (out of a total of 64 killed so far) in state action, today issued notices to the government to furnish details of events leading to fatalities and also asked the witnesses to record their statements before it.
The two-man Commission of Inquiry in its maiden meeting under the chairmanship of Justice (retd.) Bashir-ud-din, also heading the State Human Rights Commission today and sent notice to the Divisional Commissioner Kashmir, the Inspector General Police, the Deputy Commissioners and Superintendents of Police of the three districts which witnessed the killings. Justice (retd.) Y P Nargotra, another member of the Commission, also attended the meeting.
The Commission asked the authorities to provide all information about the incidents leading to killings since 11th of June 2010 up to the day the CI was instituted. The Commission shall probe into killings of civilians seven, each from Srinagar and Baramulla, and three from Islamabad districts  17 in all.
The Commission has asked all the individuals and groups possessing any knowledge about these killings to come forward and record their evidence and statements before the Commission.
The Commission, according to the notice, shall inquire in the circumstances leading to the deaths of the 17 civilians by use of force by police and paramilitaries. It shall also investigate if excessive force was used by police and paramilitary forces that led to these deaths. Responsibilities shall be fixed and suggestive measures recommended to prevent recurrence of such incidents, according to the notice.
It is mentionable the Commission of Inquiry is recommendatory in nature and its findings and recommendations are not binding on the government. 
The two-member CI was announced vide SRO no 283 dated 29/7/2010 by the state government under section 3 of the Commission of Inquires Act (1962) to probe independently into the killing of 17 youths who fell to the bullets of police and paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF).
Sixty-four protesters, mostly youngsters, have been killed so far since June 11 and the remaining 47 killings shall also be brought under the purview of the Commission with a subsequent reference, the government has said.
It is pertinent to note that the Commission is to submit its report within three months and its inaugural meeting was conducted after a lapse of one month since its institution.


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## Iggy

Wow seems like IA is busy fixing date for this scums with Virgins


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## TaimiKhan

seiko said:


> Wow seems like IA is busy fixing date for this scums with Virgins



Why you guys bring in virgins in every post of yours ??

It seems Indian members are more obsessed with virgins compared to these freedom fighters would be. And it seems to be a fact.


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## mjnaushad

TaimiKhan said:


> Why you guys bring in virgins in every post of yours ??
> 
> It seems Indian members are more obsessed with virgins compared to these freedom fighters would be. And it seems to be a fact.


I agree...

Regardless of this thing is used by whom and for what purpose its a religious believe. Indian wont like if we bring Ram and her girlfriend (Dont know her name)or Hanuman in every post......


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## Abu Zolfiqar

good point....actually, the hindustanys on this forum should consider pre-marital fornication --maybe it'll take away their trolling time on this forum?


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## honour

i feel i should appol. for that virgin post on behalf of my friend


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## Iggy

TaimiKhan said:


> Why you guys bring in virgins in every post of yours ??
> 
> It seems Indian members are more obsessed with virgins compared to these freedom fighters would be. And it seems to be a fact.



Taimi for you they may be freedom fighters..but for me they are brainwashed people in the name of religion killing innocents.and i hate people using religion for their convenience and justify their actions by the name of religion even if it is my religion Christianity .lets stick with our own believes shall we??

On the side note..mate every single male is obsessed with Virgins if you notice


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## TaimiKhan

honour said:


> i feel i should appol. for that virgin post on behalf of my friend



No worries Sir, but problem is that there is not just one post of this nature, there are hundreds which i have read so far. 

I don't believe any of the Indian members would have done a jihadi course to be knowing this for a fact that their trainers just keep telling them virgins virgins virgins, there must be something else also which motivates them to go on and give their lives. A person is not mad enough to give his life just for virgins which he/she hasn't even seen. 

Palestinian bombers are never mentioned for giving their lives for just virgins, if we look into their family history you will find something which makes them go for such a difficult task. 

I do hope the Indian members would stop using this slang without even knowing the facts, they themselves seem to have been brainwashed just like the a suicide bomber through the media, Indian films, western media that suicide bombers just think of virgins and nothing else.

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## Iggy

Guys no need for generalisation..its only me who made the virgin comment here over and over..so if you wanna criticize ,criticise me...no need to bring India in to it..

@Honor :no need to apologize my friend, i am still sticking to my point..please dont apologize for me


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## TaimiKhan

seiko said:


> Taimi for you they may be freedom fighters..but for me they are brainwashed people in the name of religion killing innocents.and i hate people using religion for their convenience and justify their actions even if it is my religion Christianity .lets stick with our own believes shall we??
> 
> On the side note..mate every single male is obsessed with Virgins if you notice



Everybody hates people using religion for their own doing, you are not alone,but sometimes logic and sanity should also be used to differentiate, anyway won't discuss more about that as you are an Indian and won't understand what is being talked about. 

Well i doubt everyone is, 6 billion people on the planet, not all would be obsessed with just virgins.


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## honour

@seiko...we r indians...famous for out dignity and respect...lets maintain that...
@pakistani friends...i also find a lot of such posts here from pakistani's as well...so dont critisize everyone......just take example of a member growler who uses a limitless language...so be in limit..........

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Kashmir isnt even an issue of religion. It's a purely existential issue that has yet to be solved in fair and just manner. 

those bringing up virgins or any of that other crap are just uneducated people


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## Iggy

TaimiKhan said:


> No worries Sir, but problem is that there is not just one post of this nature, there are hundreds which i have read so far.
> 
> I don't believe any of the Indian members would have done a jihadi course to be knowing this for a fact that their trainers just keep telling them virgins virgins virgins, there must be something else also which motivates them to go on and give their lives. A person is not mad enough to give his life just for virgins which he/she hasn't even seen.
> 
> Palestinian bombers are never mentioned for giving their lives for just virgins, if we look into their family history you will find something which makes them go for such a difficult task.
> 
> I do hope the Indian members would stop using this slang without even knowing the facts, they themselves seem to have been brainwashed just like the a suicide bomber through the media, Indian films, western media that suicide bombers just think of virgins and nothing else.



fair point Taimi..but you cannot ignore the facts that most of the people attacking innocents are recruited by religion as a tool..most of the terror attack happened in the kashmir and India as a whole is done by non -kashmiries motivated by religion..thats what i am arguing about and my post was not against all the muslims ..


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## Iggy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Kashmir isnt even an issue of religion. It's a purely existential issue that has yet to be solved in fair and just manner.
> 
> those bringing up virgins or any of that other crap are just uneducated people



Well you can change the stand according to your convinence..in some other posts you were talking loudly about supporting the muslims brothers in Kashmir..now who is uneducated here?


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## Iggy

TaimiKhan said:


> Everybody hates people using religion for their own doing, you are not alone,but sometimes logic and sanity should also be used to differentiate, anyway won't discuss more about that as you are an Indian and won't understand what is being talked about.
> 
> Well i doubt everyone is, 6 billion people on the planet, not all would be obsessed with just virgins.




Ok Taimi feel free to delete my posts..Sorry if i hurt any of the muslims feelings here..But still for me they will be terrorists who fought against the IA in Kashmir..


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## TaimiKhan

seiko said:


> Guys no need for generalisation..its only me who made the virgin comment here over and over..so if you wanna criticize ,criticise me...no need to bring India in to it..
> 
> @Honor :no need to apologize my friend, i am still sticking to my point..please dont apologize for me



Sorry, you weren't nor have been the only one, majority of your countrymen come up with this comment and have seen dozens rather hundreds of times. 

So its not just about you,its about others as well as some misinformed Pakistani members who have no brains to think about and have themselves been brain washed.


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## TaimiKhan

seiko said:


> Ok Taimi feel free to delete my posts..Sorry if i hurt any of the muslims feelings here..But still for me they will be terrorists who fought against the IA in Kashmir..



If i had to delete the post, i would have done it without wasting my time on replying it. 

And the bone of contention is not what they are being called, you call them terrorists, we will call them freedom fighters. 

The issue is the generalization / fun making of something which is in someone's religion. 

Do you know the virgin thingy is for Shaheeds and there is not just one kind of a Shaheed, so by your guys generalization you are insulting all those other people also as well as Islam.

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## Iggy

TaimiKhan said:


> If i had to delete the post, i would have done it without wasting my time on replying it.
> 
> And the bone of contention is not what they are being called, you call them terrorists, we will call them freedom fighters.
> 
> The issue is the generalization / fun making of something which is in someone's religion.
> *
> Do you know the virgin thingy is for Shaheeds and there is not just one kind of a Shaheed, so by your guys generalization you are insulting all those other people also as well as Islam*.



That part i really didnt know and trust me my intention was not to insult muslims as a whole nor making fun of any religion..apologies for all those who hurt by my remarks..

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## sparklingway

Since it was I who posted the NYT story, I need to post the reality as well:-

*Pakistan denies giving Gilgit Baltistan to China​*Tuesday, 31 Aug, 2010

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Foreign Office strongly denied the news propagated in the US and Indian media claiming that Galgit Baltistan region had been handed over to China, on Tuesday.

*The Chinese were working on landslide, flood hit areas and on the destroyed Korakoram Highway with the permission of Pakistani Government, said Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit.*

Selig Harrison in his article, published in the New York Times, wrote that on invitation of the Pakistani government seven to eleven thousand Chinese soldiers had entered Gilgit Baltistan area.

Referring to the article, Basit said The statements are based on incomplete information. Harrison has an anti-Pakistan mindset and has tried to deform the facts in his article to sensitize the situation.  DawnNews

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Pakistan denies giving Gilgit Baltistan to China

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## sparklingway

*Selig Harrison and Pakistan Media*​
A column in the New York Times newspaper by American commentator Selig Harrison has raised quite a bit of media attention around a conspiracy theory that the government is giving Gilgit Baltistan to China, a claim publicly denied by the Foreign Office. As with most conspiracy theories of this magnitude, a little basic research demonstrates that Mr Harrison and his claim of Pakistan ceding territory to China are unreliable.

While it took me all of 15 minutes to discover that Mr Harrisons reputation precedes his remarks in the US, our own media seems to be more than willing to repeat the wildest conspiracies without the least effort in fact-checking. More troubling is that the Mr Harrisons conspiracy seems to have been fed to him in part by Pakistani media.

The first suspicion I had about Mr Harrisons claim was that it was simply too outrageous to be believed without some proof. Of course, Mr Harrison provides none in his column.

Most troubling, as I said, is that Mr Harrisons claim appears to be based at least in part on rumours by unnamed journalists. He says that his sources for this conspiracy theory are:



> reports from a variety of foreign intelligence sources, Pakistani journalists and Pakistani human rights workers



First, what foreign intelligence sources? While it would certainly be in keeping with journalistic practice to hold confidential the name of an informant, it is not unusual to at least report what agency the informant is associated with. Without playing into alternate conspiracy theories, it is well documented that intelligence agencies partake in disinformation campaigns designed to sow discord in targeted nations. Considering the location in question, is it not important to know which foreign intelligence agency is making these claims?

Second, it is quite troubling that some representatives of Pakistani media have been feeding such stories to foreign reporters. Considering Mr Harrisons background (as we will explain below), it is worrisome that these Pakistani journalists went to Mr Harrison to promote their story. Certainly Mr Harrison will refuse to expose who these Pakistani journalists are, which is too bad. While there is reason to protect the identities of whistle blowers against official corruption for fear of their safety, there is little public good gained by allowing journalists to spread unsubstantiated rumours.

But lets look at Mr Harrisons claims directly. Many of Mr Harrisons claims are nothing more than hysterical conjecture.



> Mystery surrounds the construction of 22 tunnels in secret locations where Pakistanis are barred. Tunnels would be necessary for a projected gas pipeline from Iran to China that would cross the Himalayas through Gilgit. But they could also be used for missile storage sites.



I could not help but think of the famous American claims about Iraqs aluminum tubes. The idea that China, which shares a border with China, would need to store missiles under Gilgit-Balochistan makes no sense. Unfortunately for Mr Harrisons conspiracy theory, though, building tunnels for a gas pipeline would be a perfectly reasonable explanation for an increased presence of Chinese workers in the region. Its just not quite as scary.

*Of course, this is not the first claim that Mr Harrison has made about the break up of Pakistan. The Pakistan Policy Blog noticed this trend of Mr Harrisons back in 2008, noting that Selig Harrison has made a career of predicting the imminent break-up of South Asian states. In 2006, Mr Harrison reported for the French newspaper Le Monde Diplomatique that Baluchistan and Sindh were preparing to quit the nation.*

While there is no denying that we have seen groups of separatists and ethnic strife in the country (what country has not experienced such?), Mr Harrisons reports consistently take on a tone of imminent national dissolution that is simply not supported by the facts. Four years after Mr Harrisons prediction in the French media and no such calamity has occurred, of course. Yet Mr Harrison continues to predict the breakup of Pakistan. Perhaps he believes that if he simply wishes hard enough, it will come true?

Joshua Foust, a respected American journalist and intelligence consultant on South Asia, wrote a scathing profile of Mr Selig Harrison in 2008 in which he calls Mr Harrisons writings on Pashtunistan, silly, over-hyped nonsense and says,



> As it is, Harrison casts a very unconvincing shadow on the discourse over the Pashtunistan issue. It merits serious discussionseparatist movements always do. But placing them in their proper context, both historically and socially, is just as important as making a case youve been trying to make for years. As it is, Harrison seems to rely on mischaracterization, hyperbole, and the soft bigotry of low expectations (to borrow a phrase and avoid slinging charges of Orientalism)hardly the stuff of a world-renowned regional expert. I hesitate to accuse Harrison of wearing ideological blinders, as I cant really figure out what his ideology is, simultaneously blaming the West for subjugating the Pashtuns while granting them unlimited power to unite, declare independence, and bring down that very same West.
> 
> But thats par for the course for most writing these days on Pashtuns, and even on Afghanistan. It just doesnt add up. My question here, though, is the same as it was for Ann Marlowe: who the hell keeps paying him to write? I have to assume it is simply the ignorant, those more aware of his reputation than his recent scholarship, without the means to fact-check what he writes so long as it confirms their biases. That is a major loss to the field, that rigor. But, as with the curious longevity of Thomas Johnson (whom, ironically enough, Marlowe has called brilliant), it doesnt seem to be that unoriginal, either.



Today, of course, Mr Harrison is not talking only about a separatist rebellion, but he has added a twist by claiming the government is handing over de facto control of the strategic Gilgit-Baltistan region in the northwest corner of disputed Kashmir to China. His evidence? Chinese PLA workers building roads and bridges.

*Mr Harrisons column, it is important to note, appears on the Opinion page of the New York Times. It does not even pretend to be an objective or investigative report, nor should it. Mr Harrison makes clear his position when he writes,*



> What is happening in the region matters to Washington for two reasons. Coupled with its support for the Taliban, Islamabads collusion in facilitating Chinas access to the Gulf makes clear that Pakistan is not a U.S. ally.



*This is a position in direct conflict with the official positions of the US and Pakistan. It is simply Mr Harrisons opinion, and possibly an attempt to change the direction of Pakistan-US relations. Something, it seems, he has been trying to do for years.*

*An opinion column with no evidence, a discredited author, and sources from unnamed foreign intelligence agencies. One has to ask why the Pakistani media has been so ready to republish such rubbish. In fact, The News republished the piece in full today. The Nation makes note of the authors obsessive anti-Pakistan posture, but then reproduces most of the authors claims.*

*Worse still, who are the members of the Pakistani media who are feeding such conspiracy theories to foreign journalists? This blog has been criticized in the past for suggesting that there is a cycle in which Pakistani conspiracy theorists posing as journalists feed outrageous stories to the international press, who then repeat them, giving them the credibility needed to be repeated yet again in mainstream Pakistani media. But we see here an example of exactly this.*

*Actions of the media have consequences. Those consequences can be good  as when the media uncovers evidence of corruption or brings attention to pressing issues. Or they can be bad  as when the media causes confusion and distraction by placing more importance on sales than on research and facts. While we cannot control what discredited commentators like Selig Harrison write in the international media, we should not be fueling a cycle of misinformation and conspiracy theories. We should be setting an example of journalistic excellence that provides honest and accurate information at home and abroad.*

Selig Harrison and Pakistan Media | Pakistan Media Watch

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## honour

well the terrorists in Kashmir are not freedom fighters....freedom fighters dont kill their own......what they did in anantnag,,moreover they are just Pakistan sponsored ruthless brutal creatures.....wont be calling em man...would be an insult to gods best deal


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## Spring Onion

sparklingway said:


> *Selig Harrison and Pakistan Media*​
> A column in the New York Times newspaper by American commentator Selig Harrison has raised quite a bit of media attention around a conspiracy theory that the government is giving Gilgit Baltistan to China, a claim publicly denied by the Foreign Office. As with most conspiracy theories of this magnitude, a little basic research demonstrates that Mr Harrison and his claim of Pakistan ceding territory to China are unreliable.
> 
> While it took me all of 15 minutes to discover that Mr Harrisons reputation precedes his remarks in the US, our own media seems to be more than willing to repeat the wildest conspiracies without the least effort in fact-checking. More troubling is that the Mr Harrisons conspiracy seems to have been fed to him in part by Pakistani media.
> 
> The first suspicion I had about Mr Harrisons claim was that it was simply too outrageous to be believed without some proof. Of course, Mr Harrison provides none in his column.
> 
> Most troubling, as I said, is that Mr Harrisons claim appears to be based at least in part on rumours by unnamed journalists. He says that his sources for this conspiracy theory are:
> 
> 
> 
> First, what foreign intelligence sources? While it would certainly be in keeping with journalistic practice to hold confidential the name of an informant, it is not unusual to at least report what agency the informant is associated with. Without playing into alternate conspiracy theories, it is well documented that intelligence agencies partake in disinformation campaigns designed to sow discord in targeted nations. Considering the location in question, is it not important to know which foreign intelligence agency is making these claims?
> 
> Second, it is quite troubling that some representatives of Pakistani media have been feeding such stories to foreign reporters. Considering Mr Harrisons background (as we will explain below), it is worrisome that these Pakistani journalists went to Mr Harrison to promote their story. Certainly Mr Harrison will refuse to expose who these Pakistani journalists are, which is too bad. While there is reason to protect the identities of whistle blowers against official corruption for fear of their safety, there is little public good gained by allowing journalists to spread unsubstantiated rumours.
> 
> But lets look at Mr Harrisons claims directly. Many of Mr Harrisons claims are nothing more than hysterical conjecture.
> 
> 
> 
> I could not help but think of the famous American claims about Iraqs aluminum tubes. The idea that China, which shares a border with China, would need to store missiles under Gilgit-Balochistan makes no sense. Unfortunately for Mr Harrisons conspiracy theory, though, building tunnels for a gas pipeline would be a perfectly reasonable explanation for an increased presence of Chinese workers in the region. Its just not quite as scary.
> 
> *Of course, this is not the first claim that Mr Harrison has made about the break up of Pakistan. The Pakistan Policy Blog noticed this trend of Mr Harrisons back in 2008, noting that Selig Harrison has made a career of predicting the imminent break-up of South Asian states. In 2006, Mr Harrison reported for the French newspaper Le Monde Diplomatique that Baluchistan and Sindh were preparing to quit the nation.*
> 
> While there is no denying that we have seen groups of separatists and ethnic strife in the country (what country has not experienced such?), Mr Harrisons reports consistently take on a tone of imminent national dissolution that is simply not supported by the facts. Four years after Mr Harrisons prediction in the French media and no such calamity has occurred, of course. Yet Mr Harrison continues to predict the breakup of Pakistan. Perhaps he believes that if he simply wishes hard enough, it will come true?
> 
> Joshua Foust, a respected American journalist and intelligence consultant on South Asia, wrote a scathing profile of Mr Selig Harrison in 2008 in which he calls Mr Harrisons writings on Pashtunistan, silly, over-hyped nonsense and says,
> 
> 
> 
> Today, of course, Mr Harrison is not talking only about a separatist rebellion, but he has added a twist by claiming the government is handing over de facto control of the strategic Gilgit-Baltistan region in the northwest corner of disputed Kashmir to China. His evidence? Chinese PLA workers building roads and bridges.
> 
> *Mr Harrisons column, it is important to note, appears on the Opinion page of the New York Times. It does not even pretend to be an objective or investigative report, nor should it. Mr Harrison makes clear his position when he writes,*
> 
> 
> 
> *This is a position in direct conflict with the official positions of the US and Pakistan. It is simply Mr Harrisons opinion, and possibly an attempt to change the direction of Pakistan-US relations. Something, it seems, he has been trying to do for years.*
> 
> *An opinion column with no evidence, a discredited author, and sources from unnamed foreign intelligence agencies. One has to ask why the Pakistani media has been so ready to republish such rubbish. In fact, The News republished the piece in full today. The Nation makes note of the authors obsessive anti-Pakistan posture, but then reproduces most of the authors claims.*
> 
> *Worse still, who are the members of the Pakistani media who are feeding such conspiracy theories to foreign journalists? This blog has been criticized in the past for suggesting that there is a cycle in which Pakistani conspiracy theorists posing as journalists feed outrageous stories to the international press, who then repeat them, giving them the credibility needed to be repeated yet again in mainstream Pakistani media. But we see here an example of exactly this.*
> 
> *Actions of the media have consequences. Those consequences can be good  as when the media uncovers evidence of corruption or brings attention to pressing issues. Or they can be bad  as when the media causes confusion and distraction by placing more importance on sales than on research and facts. While we cannot control what discredited commentators like Selig Harrison write in the international media, we should not be fueling a cycle of misinformation and conspiracy theories. We should be setting an example of journalistic excellence that provides honest and accurate information at home and abroad.*
> 
> Selig Harrison and Pakistan Media | Pakistan Media Watch





Quoting your post in those two dozen threads opened by bhartis on this same conspiracy theory of this idiot


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## TaimiKhan

honour said:


> well the terrorists in Kashmir are not freedom fighters....freedom fighters dont kill their own......what they did in anantnag,,moreover they are just Pakistan sponsored ruthless brutal creatures.....wont be calling em man...would be an insult to gods best deal



Well by that definition, don't mind but how has the IA fared ?? Don't bring in the collateral damage thingy as same counter argument can be told. 

And did the Indian authorities investigate who killed these local people ?? Were the culprits ever caught and produced in courts ?? 

Becoz if they didn't,then by mere accusation these freedom fighters are not what you just said. 

What proof is brought forward before the real verdict if given ??

As due to the recent discovery of real culprits of many explosions in India being Saffron Terrorists which before were blamed on leT or other Muslim organizations sends very clear signals that the real culprits may not be the local freedom fighters, rather someone else. 

Its very common sense and definitely the freedom fighters would know that by killing their own, they will loose the local support of its own, thus killing their own would be counter productive, we just saw that in Pakistan also, where due to bombings spree the TTP guys lost whatever local sympathy they had and whole nation got one against them.

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## sparklingway

*The Clueless Mr Harrison*​
The only question that can possibly arise from any sensible follower of international relations after reading Center for International Policy director and former Washington Post South Asia bureau chief Selig Harrison's August 26 op-ed in the New York Times is this: Is Selig Harrison a paid lobbyist for India or simply senile?

*So full of bollocks is his piece - written breathlessly like a breaking news story - that it is hard to imagine who could possibly ever take it or Mr Harrison seriously. *The basic thrust of the op-ed is that Pakistan has covertly handed over the Gilgit-Baltistan region to the Chinese, a "fact" that it seems only Mr Harrison is privy to and thus he becomes the Chosen One to reveal it to the world. In fact, just hearing about this was enough for me to dismiss the story and move on. *I mean, you have to ask yourself, despite our longstanding security ties with China, given Pakistan's national psyche, is such a thing even possible? Could such a development actually happen without anyone knowing about it? Or a hue and cry arising about it in at least Pakistan's anarchic media? *(And please don't bring in that sliver of land called Aksai Chin into this, as far as I know nobody lives in that remote desert.)

But now that the Pakistan Foreign Office was forced to issue a rebuttal, I thought I would go back and actually read the piece. And woe is me. *Mr Harrison begins with the kind of ominous foreboding that would suit a Tom Clancy thriller, and had it been a film rather than a printed article, would have surely included a menacing dhen dhen dhen soundtrack...*



> "While the world focuses on the flood-ravaged Indus River valley, a quiet geopolitical crisis is unfolding in the Himalayan borderlands of northern Pakistan, where Islamabad is handing over de facto control of the strategic Gilgit-Baltistan region in the northwest corner of disputed Kashmir to China."



Unfortunately, having set up his thriller, he almost immediately puts his foot into his rather large mouth by making factually ridiculous claims:



> "The entire ***************** western portion of Kashmir stretching from Gilgit in the north to Azad (Free) Kashmir in the south is closed to the world, in contrast to the media access that India permits in the eastern part, where it is combating a Pakistan-backed insurgency."



Does Selig even know anything of what he writes about? *Gilgit-Baltistan is closed to the world??? Has he ever heard of European trekking and mountaineering expeditions? Or Japanese and Korean tourists visiting Buddhist relics? Or the Aga Khan Rural Support Programme that has international consultants coming in and out of the region with more regularity than he probably goes to the loo with? Or has he never read international dispatches from Muzaffarabad during the earthquake or from the site of the recent Attabad landslide lake in Hunza? Yes, foreigners do need a special visa to go into these areas, partly because Pakistan officially considers them disputed areas and partly because of security concerns. But not only does Pakistani media reach these areas but most newspapers have permanent correspondents based there and report regularly from there. But of course, this fool gives his hand away by comparing it to the "media access that India permits" in Indian-administered Kashmir (which foreign correspondents also need special permission for.) You have to be either totally blinkered or totally corrupt to make the case that media access in the Valley of Kashmir is greater than in Gilgit-Baltistan or Pakistan-administered Kashmir.
*
Mr Harrison then adds:



> "... reports from a variety of foreign intelligence sources, Pakistani journalists and Pakistani human rights workers reveal two important new developments in Gilgit-Baltistan: a simmering rebellion against Pakistani rule and the influx of an estimated 7,000 to 11,000 soldiers of the People&#8217;s Liberation Army."



*Aah, the "simmering rebellion" hypothesis, so favoured by Selig. You might go: what? where? How come I didn't see it in Skardu? But then you probably have not followed Mr Harrison's career. Here are two takedowns of his earlier claims, the first from an excellent blog on all things Central Asian called Registan, the other from the Pakistan Policy blog. Registan's post, evocatively and correctly titled "The Inexplicable Longevity of Selig S. Harrison" begins thus:*



> "Selig S. Harrison has a curious relationship with reality&#8212;that is to say, not much of one."



And that in essence is all you need to know about this former hack.

Incidentally, the People's Liberation Army soldiers? Apparently Chinese civilians who have come with flood relief goods and those helping the rebuilding of the Karakorum Highway, which if you recall, was built with Chinese assistance in the first place and has been severely damaged by the recent floods. Harrison in fact admits that most of the Chinese are "working on dams, expressways and other projects." But he also questions some "mysterious tunnels" that he believes could be used for laying oil pipelines and to hide missiles, and plans for railroad and road links that China could use to "transport cargo from Eastern China to... Gwadar." *Oh wow. Damn those nefarious-minded Asian types, trying to do things for their own benefit.*

*By the way, doesn't everyone know about Pakistan's longtime collaboration with China on security matters? And why shouldn't Pakistan collaborate with China to build its infrastructure or even as a military counter-weight to India? And why would the Chinese do it unless they see something in it for themslves? Isn't 'strategic national interest' the very foundation of international state relations?* But Mr Harrison sees something sinister in this. Why? Basically because:



> "Coupled with its support for the Taliban, Islamabad&#8217;s collusion in facilitating China&#8217;s access to the Gulf makes clear that Pakistan is not a U.S. &#8220;ally.&#8221; Equally important, the nascent revolt in the Gilgit-Baltistan region is a reminder that Kashmiri demands for autonomy on both sides of the cease-fire line would have to be addressed in a settlement."



By the way, I have no clue what he means by the second part, regardless of his imaginary "nascent revolt" repetition. So, reminders that the Kashmir issue remains outstanding is a problem for you Selig?

*But of course Mr Harrison can't leave it at that. He must earn his lobbying funds (ok, I have no proof of this, but I would be dumbfounded if the following bit of Indian establishment fantasy were being repeated without any quid pro quo):*



> "Media attention has exposed the repression of the insurgency in the Indian-ruled Kashmir Valley. But if reporters could get into the Gilgit-Baltistan region and Azad Kashmir, they would find widespread, brutally-suppressed local movements for democratic rights and regional autonomy."



*I have news for you Selig. People all over Pakistan desire democratic rights and regional autonomy (as, dare I say, they do in vast swathes of Moaist insurgency-wracked India) but nowhere in Gilgit-Baltistan and Azad Kashmir will you find the kind of brutal military-backed suppression of local movements that you will find in the Valley. To draw equivalences there is the height of ignorance, of cynicism or devious attempts to deflect focus.*

And of course no two-bit "expert" on South Asia (or any third world area) can go without attempting to stoke sectarian / ethnic fires through sweeping generalizations:



> "When the British partitioned South Asia in 1947, the maharajah who ruled Kashmir, including Gilgit and Baltistan, acceded to India. This set off intermittent conflict that ended with Indian control of the Kashmir Valley, the establishment of Pakistan-sponsored Free Kashmir in western Kashmir, and Pakistan&#8217;s occupation of Gilgit and Baltistan, where Sunni jihadi groups allied with the Pakistan Army have systematically terrorized the local Shiite Muslims."



*Yes, of course, he has to bring in the Shia-Sunni angle as well, as if his main aim is to protect the Shia of Gilgit-Baltistan (shades of neo-con "experts" wanting to protect the Shia in Iraq, the women in Afghanistan etc). Yes, there are sectarian tensions in parts of the area (Gilgit city for example) which have existed for decades and periodically erupt into violence. But he is obviously confusing areas like Kurram Agency in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) - where Al Qaeda backed militants have terrorized Shia populations - as part of the Northern Areas. *I have yet to hear of any overt jihadi outfits operating in the Northern Areas. But when your agenda is something else, geography is the least of your concerns.

Selig Harrison goes on:



> "Gilgit and Baltistan are in effect under military rule. Democratic activists there want a legislature and other institutions without restrictions like the ones imposed on Free Kashmir, where the elected legislature controls only 4 out of 56 subjects covered in the state constitution. The rest are under the jurisdiction of a &#8220;Kashmir Council&#8221; appointed by the president of Pakistan. India gives more power to the state government in Srinagar; elections there are widely regarded as fair, and open discussion of demands for autonomy is permitted."



*That "democratic activists there want a legislature" must certainly come as news to Northern Areas elected chief minister Mehdi Shah and his elected cabinet. I guess Selig was sleeping when the Northern Areas elections were held. He is right that there is resentment about how much real power the legislatures of Azad Kashmir (which have their own president and prime minister) and Gilgit-Baltistan actually enjoy but do keep in mind that unlike India, Pakistan does not claim to have incorporated the region into the country and, at least accepts their position as regions whose status is yet to be resolved. The bit about elections in Indian-administered Kashmir being "widely regarded as fair" would be laughable (at least as far as the Valley is concerned) if only there were no daily military-enforced curfews and large-scale protests every day there by ordinary Kashmiris demanding independence (no, Selig, they are not demanding "greater autonomy" within India, but nice of you to at least concede that all is not hunky dory there).*

*Notice also that he never once points out that the people of Gilgit-Baltistan do not consider themselves historically part of Kashmir and their strongest demand has always been a de-linking of their status from that of Kashmir. Why? Probably because it goes against the Indian establishment narrative.*

Nevertheless, Mr Harrison provides his prescription for what the US should do with (to?) Pakistan:



> "In Pakistan, Washington should focus on getting Islamabad to stop aiding the insurgency in the Kashmir Valley and to give New Delhi a formal commitment that it will not annex Gilgit and Baltistan. Precisely because the Gilgit-Baltistan region is so important to China, the United States, India and Pakistan should work together to make sure that it is not overwhelmed, like Tibet, by the Chinese behemoth."



So, India should be "pressed" to resume talks with separatists on autonomy (kind of like the US presses Israel to resume Middle East talks?) even as its claims to Kashmir as a part of its union are accepted, while Islamabad gives New Delhi "a formal commitment" about keeping Gilgit and Baltistan in limbo? Oh, I understand Selig, it's because what is important to the US (and you) has nothing to do with the people of GB per se or what they want but with the United States' own strategic interests vis a vis keeping China at bay. And yes, we should all work together to make sure GB is not overwhelmed by China (a patently manufactured scare in the first place), since the only sort of overwhelming that is kosher is by the US. What Selig is basically saying is, if you want to be overwhelmed, Main Hoon Na. Thanks for clearing that up.

*Tailpiece:* You might have wondered what the Center for International Policy is all about, because any organization that has someone as clueless or mealy-mouthed as Selig Harrison as a director, well what can you really say about its credibility? Well here's what Wikipedia has to say about it's history:

"The Center for International Policy (CIP), located in Washington DC, was founded in 1975 by diplomats and peace activists in the wake of the Vietnam War. On its website, the Center describes its mission as "Promoting a U.S. foreign policy based on international cooperation, demilitarization and respect for human rights.""

How the mighty have fallen! At least they are keeping up the "promoting a U.S. foreign policy" bit.

http://cafepyala.blogspot.com/2010/09/clueless-mr-harrison.html

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## S_O_C_O_M

*Boy, 11, shot dead in Kashmir​*
*Human rights campaigners have called on the Indian government to prosecute soldiers and paramilitary police after an 11-year-old boy was shot dead in Kashmir.​*
By Dean Nelson, New Delhi
Published: 4:44PM BST 31 Aug 2010






Kashmiri Muslim protesters shout anti Indian slogans behind a burning tyre during a protest in Srinagar Photo: EPA 

They were speaking amid growing concern over the numbers of teenagers and children killed by Indian security forces during protests in the restive state. Up to 65 have been killed in the last 11 weeks, including a nine-year-old boy whose family claim he was beaten to death by armed police. 

According to witnesses, Irshad Ahmad Parray, 11, was among a group of young men staging an anti-India demonstration when police opened fire on them with rubber bullets. 

He was rushed from the scene in Anantnag to the state capital Srinagar where doctors said he had received pellet wounds to his vital organs and was dead on arrival. 

The death of Irshad caused particular concern among human rights campaigners because he was shot with a rubber bullet which had been issued to reduce the number of civilian deaths. Paramilitary police had been ordered to use 'non-lethal methods of crowd control after Indias prime minister Manmohan Singh voiced his concerns. 

Meenakshi Ganguly of Human Rights Watch said she was increasingly alarmed at police using lethal force as a first option. Its appalling. Were asking for proper training and accountability. Soldiers are not punished, but if they were prosecuted they would be more careful, she said. 

The police said the boy was part of a violent demonstration in which protesters were throwing stones at police. 

His death, and the shooting of a relative of a Kashmiri separatist leader as he played a board game outside his home in Srinagar, sparked fresh protests. 

Yasir Malik, a cousin of Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front leader Yasin Malik, was shot and seriously injured in an apparently unprovoked attack. 

Police sources later said the constable who shot him had been suspended. 

Boy, 11, shot dead in Kashmir - Telegraph


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## moha199

Man they are sick basterds for killing such innocent people.... Now what for killing innocent 11 years old kid, Surly these basterds will burn in hell for good amin

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## FreekiN

Disgusting.



> Yasir Malik, a cousin of Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front leader Yasin Malik, was shot and seriously injured in an *apparently unprovoked attack.*



Can't use the "ISI-sponsored stone-thrower" argument this time.


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## moha199

^^ Don't be happy for long brother! lmao i'm sure something is cooking and they will throw it at ISI and Pakistani army.! need to get a life lmao

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## Coltsfan

moha199 said:


> Man they are sick basterds for killing such innocent people.... Now what for killing innocent 11 years old kid, Surly these basterds will burn in hell for good amin





FreekiN said:


> Disgusting.
> 
> 
> 
> Can't use the "ISI-sponsored stone-thrower" argument this time.




Selective reading?

It is unfortunate that the kid had to die......... however..... Indian forces have tried to use non-lethal force to minimize the causalities.

I am sure the protesters are gonna take his death to further incite the population.

Can't fire roses at people who are throwing at stones at you...... 

I regret the kid had to die, but his parents should have thought about this once before letting him throw stones at Indian forces......

About time the so called warriors stop using kids and women as cannon fodder in their "struggle" for independence.

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## bandit

> According to witnesses, Irshad Ahmad Parray, 11, was among a group of young men staging an anti-India demonstration when police opened fire on them with rubber bullets.



What was an 11 year old doing in a protest demonstration? Why put him there when it is known it is not a safe place. Whose responsibility is it to see that kids are not put in harms way. The police?



> The death of Irshad caused particular concern among human rights campaigners because he was shot with a rubber bullet which had been issued to reduce the number of civilian deaths. Paramilitary police had been ordered to use 'non-lethal methods of crowd control after Indias prime minister Manmohan Singh voiced his concerns.


 
The death itself was an accident as it occured with a non lethal bullet. Maybe it was still lethal for an 11 year old but then, whose responsibility is it to keep children out of harms way?

I'd say the parents are more to blame here for putting there kid in harms way.

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## Desi Sher

Regret the Death of that Boy, But I wouldnt label him as Innocent, His parents Shouldnt have allowed him to Throw Stones Knowing the Consequence .....


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## STD

First things first,what was that kid doing there?
Didn't his guardians know its a risky place?

Secondly,the boy was supporting *anti-Indian* movements,so i am not really sad about the boy.


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## notsuperstitious

> According to witnesses, Irshad Ahmad Parray, 11, was among a group of young men staging an anti-India demonstration when police opened fire on them with rubber bullets.



Did any bleeding hearts read the red part before going on their usual trip? Rubber bullets are a non lethal means of crowd control, its unfortunate he died. Lots of 11 year olds are into stone throwing, their parents shold control these kids instead of posing for mourning photos later. A 11 year old has no business throwing stones at armed forces, if he does, his parents are responsible for the consequences. In this case police have used rubber bullets, so they can't be blamed of high handedness.

Bitter, but true.

BTW stone throwers are NOT unarmed.

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## moha199

Coltsfan said:


> Selective reading?
> 
> It is unfortunate that the kid had to die......... however..... Indian forces have tried to use non-lethal force to minimize the causalities.
> 
> I am sure the protesters are gonna take his death to further incite the population.
> 
> Can't fire roses at people who are throwing at stones at you......
> 
> I regret the kid had to die, but his parents should have thought about this once before letting him throw stones at Indian forces......
> 
> About time the so called warriors stop using kids and women as cannon fodder in their "struggle" for independence.



so throwing stones should be reponded by bullets you are sick man! so if he was 20 years old, you would off justify this!!! You guys talk about humanity all the times what happens to you guys when you guys kill people of a land!.... bullcrap Do you know you guys make a joke of yourself here! Many of my american friend visit this forum and they crack jokes on you people! when i ask them to join this forum their answer is! Dude you want us to debat with people who will start asking where did the a,b,c came from... meaning going off topic and getting into wrong details, like you just said their parernts should off known better before sending their kid to this protest! ahahah shame on you simple. Killing of any unarmed should be condemed period!


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## gubbi

A 11 year old? RIP kid.
Sad. Could it have been prevented? Definitely - by making that child stay at home and study or play with his pals. Definitely NOT by instigating him to join a frenzied stone throwing mob!
Arent there MEN who can protest like men, instead of sending small kids as cannon fodder. Yeah, thats what it is - cannon fodder for their sinister motives. Bloody imbeciles - sending kids into such violence.
No wonder they dont deserve "freedom".

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## gubbi

moha199 said:


> so throwing stones should be reponded by bullets you are sick man! so if he was 20 years old, you would off justify this!!! You guys talk about humanity all the times what happens to you guys when you guys kill people of a land!.... bullcrap Do you know you guys make a joke of yourself here! Many of my american friend visit this forum and they crack jokes on you people! when i ask them to join this forum their answer is! Dude you want us to debat with people who will start asking where did the a,b,c came from... meaning going off topic and getting into wrong details, like you just said their parernts should off known better before sending their kid to this protest! ahahah shame on you simple. Killing of any unarmed should be condemed period!



Dude, read the article. It says RUBBER BULLETS! And do you think a 11 year old is strong enough that he can withstand being shot by rubber bullets? He was NOT supposed to be there. His stupid parents/guardians should have known better than send him to throw stones! He could have been in school, had not that "biatych" instigated people to close schools. Bloody imbeciles. Cant they atleast leave the kids out of this. 
No wonder, brains they have none!

About that "american friends" thing, do you even realize that the joke's on you and your ilk?

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## Coltsfan

moha199 said:


> so throwing stones should be reponded by bullets you are sick man!



*1) No need to get personal and call me names, I have not done that to you and expect you to behave reasonably with me. If you can't do that go and seek some counselling.*

2) If you had bothered to read the article, forces used rubber bullets, it is unfortunate that the kid succumbed to injuries to vital organs, but you can not make a case that he was intentionally murdered.



> so if he was 20 years old, you would off justify this!!! You guys talk about humanity all the times what happens to you guys when you guys kill people of a land!.... bullcrap



If he was 20 years old, he would be an adult and responsible for his own actions. Right now I hold his parents responsible for their negligence led to him participating in the demonstration and getting killed. Also, the responsibility lies with the courageous freedom fighters who would put a 11 year old kid in front of armed forces to save their sorry @$$.




> Do you know you guys make a joke of yourself here! Many of my american friend visit this forum and they crack jokes on you people! when i ask them to join this forum their answer is! Dude you want us to debat with people who will start asking where did the a,b,c came from...



NO I did not know your "american" friends visit the forum, and frankly I do not give one hoot.



> meaning going off topic and getting into wrong details, like you just said their parernts should off known better before sending their kid to this protest! ahahah shame on you simple. Killing of any unarmed should be condemed period!



Shame on me for what? I still stand by my statement that he should not have been there.

Have you not seen me condemn his death? Did you see my celebrate his death?

I had said the death of the kid is unfortunate and regrettable.

*Please go and read what I have posted earlier before you decide to starting mouthing off and launch your nonsensical diatribe.*

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## Coltsfan

@Moha199

oh and by the way, I saw you never even tried to answer the question I asked in my first post, so I will ask you again...........

*HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT KIDS BEING USED AS CANNON FODDER BY THE FREEDOM FIGHTER?????*

Hopefully you would not selectively parse my post this time and have some sensible answer............

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## FreekiN

The police said that they were throwing stones, but of course, they need an excuse to get away with the crimes they commit.

Firing on a peaceful protest and then calling them stone throwers after shooting at children.

nice.


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## Bojitive neuj

moha199 said:


> Man they are sick basterds for killing such innocent people.... Now what for killing innocent 11 years old kid, Surly these basterds will burn in hell for good amin



*No one was aimed at and shot*. Is it too difficult for you to understand??

Had it been a 79 year old chacha, what difference would it have made? He would have been still a rioter.

Police fired to quell the demonstartors throwing stones and causing damage to public property by burning and stuffs and not specifically taking minors on target.

Although killing of any Individual is very very sad and condemnable. But you people are taking it too far as if the police is specifically targetting children.

As far as going to hell is concerned, those who pay and provoke these people to make riots, sitting accross the borders and exporting terror to the world arent going to the "Jannat" anyway. Make no mistake, They already have a group reservation in hell. Some hell has already came down to them recently in advance.


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## Coltsfan

FreekiN said:


> The police said that they were throwing stones, but of course, they need an excuse to get away with the crimes they commit.
> 
> Firing on a peaceful protest and then calling them stone throwers after shooting at children.
> 
> nice.



How about--- the crowd was distributing "laddus" and the forces fired on them....???

Would this narrative better suit your pre-conceived notions?

No wonder Indian and Pakistanis can't have any decent debate......

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## moha199

Coltsfan said:


> @Moha199
> 
> oh and by the way, I saw you never even tried to answer the question I asked in my first post, so I will ask you again...........
> 
> *HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT KIDS BEING USED AS CANNON FODDER BY THE FREEDOM FIGHTER?????*
> 
> Hopefully you would not selectively parse my post this time and have some sensible answer............



First of all Indian police or armed forces should use only tear gas that's IT. If they are scared of stones then get your self some heavy armored trucks!! second Give those people a right to VOTE for thier destiny! again you guys make me sick buddy! thirdly yes i do get thier joke!!!!! just go over this forum and read Indian fellows lol lastlely i strongly oppose using those kids as weapon! but you can't blame any Muslim county for that since it's not the government who is using those kids! either they are rebels or freedom fighter which are definatly breaking the law!!!! but you can only solve problems when you go to the root of the problem! In Kashmir problem is! INDIA has opperessed thos Kashmiries for over a long time buddy!... You guys should say one thing! we should let them pick their own faith, meaning their future!!!! As many of you hae said that you guys have given Indian held Kashmiries so much and their life standerds are way better but still if they are not happy then let them decide thier future!...... Fair enough!!! lol


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## Bojitive neuj

Any innocent studying in school and being shot at is shameful violent act. However, people lose their sympathy if they resort to violent acts themselves like the recent rioting. Be it man, woman, major, minor or chahcu.

Peaceful protest is ok, but rioting is not.


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## moha199

Bojitive neuj said:


> Any innocent studying in school and being shot at is shameful violent act. However, people lose their sympathy if they resort to violent acts themselves like the recent rioting. Be it man, woman, major, minor or chahcu.
> 
> Peaceful protest is ok, but rioting is not.



I thought these protest were peacefull until India security forces starting killing people!!! buddy open google and search please... don't be so short mermory person please!!!

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## Bojitive neuj

moha199 said:


> I thought these protest were peacefull until *India security forces starting killing people*!!! buddy open google and search please... don't be so short mermory person please!!!



Yes you THOUGHT, didnt you?? You are no less a Propogandist. (read bolded part above)


Heres a breath of fresh air for you.



> According to witnesses, Irshad Ahmad Parray, 11, was among a group of young men staging an anti-India demonstration. Police opened fire on them with rubber bullets to disburse the crowd.



No one wanted to kill anybody. Had it been the case, police would have used actual bullets. 

The boy died in accident. As per your ridiculous claim, "India security forces starting killing people" with rubber and wax bullets, didnt they??


NON LETHAL RUBBER BULLETS



> Rubber bullets are rubber or rubber-coated projectiles that can be fired from either standard firearms or dedicated riot guns.* They are intended to be a non lethal alternative to metal projectiles. Like other similar projectiles made from plastic, wax, and wood, rubber bullets may be used for short range practice and animal control, but are most commonly associated with use in riot control and to disperse protests*.[1][2]
> 
> Such "kinetic impact munitions" are meant to cause pain *but not serious injury*

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## Coltsfan

Bojitive neuj said:


> Yes you THOUGHT, didnt you?? Heres a breath of fresh air for you.
> 
> 
> 
> No one wanted to kill anybody. Had it been the case, police would have used actual bullets.
> 
> The boy died in accident.



Never mind bro,

This is how these guys learn to debate.........

If you can't win an argument by logic and facts then

1) Start calling people names and

2) Start coming up with facts that are convenient to them.... for example....... how the protesters morphed from a "stone throwing crowd" to a "peaceful crowd"

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## Agnostic_Indian

So indian forces are using rubber bullets..good.


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## duhastmish

poor kid he had to die because of his jack arse parents. A 11 yr old kid's mind must be sickened with poison from these idiots. 

If he was throwing stone at an age of 11 yr. i think its good he dies before he becomes 25 and start throwing bombs. 

people have to realise violence is not the way to protest.

you have to pay for it. 

but still god bless the soul of the one who died. It was not his fault but his gaurdians. who give birth but dont deserve to have kids.

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## Bojitive neuj

Coltsfan said:


> Never mind bro,
> 
> This is how these guys learn to debate.........
> 
> If you can't win an argument by logic and facts then
> 
> 1) Start calling people names and
> 
> 2) Start coming up with facts that are convenient to them.... for example....... how the protesters morphed from a "stone throwing crowd" to a "peaceful crowd"


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## moha199

Bojitive neuj said:


> Yes you THOUGHT, didnt you?? You are no less a Propogandist. (read bolded part above)
> 
> 
> Heres a breath of fresh air for you.
> 
> 
> 
> No one wanted to kill anybody. Had it been the case, police would have used actual bullets.
> 
> The boy died in accident. As per your ridiculous claim, "India security forces starting killing people" with rubber and wax bullets, didnt they??
> 
> 
> NON LETHAL RUBBER BULLETS



Look man you guys are really pushing this stuff!!! again i say i thought these protests started off peacful!!!!!! meaning these recent protests and rallies... God dam. do you guys even think before you guys reply... lol I remember very clearing that these protest started off clean and peaceful but then indian security forces killed one guy... next rally was angered and they threw stones and then more then one person was killed then rallies became more angered and things started to go out of hand!!!! wait let me go back.... they are kashmiries and they shouldnt be angery for getting killed... indian security forces has right to kill but when kashmiries come out for protest they better have rose in their hand and say god bless india.... SICK !!!!!


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## NWO

Hold up, you guys don't know anything. For all you know, it could have been a suicide bomber.

Or he just could have been passing through to go home. 

And we don't know what happened. Maybe the police yelled warnings, used tear gas and finally used rubber bullets as a last reserve. Or they could have been laughing as they show the protester scatter about after aimlessly opening fire, not even checking the ammo type. 

Lets wait a while and see what the story is.


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## Bojitive neuj

moha199 said:


> Look man you guys are really pushing this stuff!!! again i say i thought these protests started off peacful!!!!!! meaning these recent protests and rallies... God dam. do you guys even think before you guys reply... lol I remember very clearing that these protest started off clean and peaceful but then indian security forces killed one guy... next rally was angered and they threw stones and then more then one person was killed then rallies became more angered and things started to go out of hand!!!! wait let me go back.... they are kashmiries and they shouldnt be angery for getting killed... indian security forces has right to kill but when kashmiries come out for protest they better have rose in their hand and say god bless india.... SICK !!!!!



'There are 1000s of peaceful rallies every week in India, including JnK. Police does not go on a shooting spree for target practice each time. Believe me police authorities are not fools to be in news and limelight for all the bad reasons. 

They have to arbitrate and control the situation when it turns violent and out of hand.

And for a change if pakistan feels so much sympathy with innocents being killed then for gods sake stop paying these people to protest and throw stones and burn civil properties.

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## Coltsfan

> Look man you guys are really pushing this stuff!!! again i say i thought these protests started off peacful!!!!!!



Don't even try to blame it on us, this thread was on track for once, before you decide to show and started mouthing off.

It doesn't matter how you "think" the protests started, I had been just going by the news reports that were posted on the thread and discussing that.

You came up with your "thoughts" and fictional stuff.

And now you have successfully rendered this thread into just another Kashmir thread........... Good job........ mission accomplished I guess.

Mods since this is just another kashmir thread now, I suggest you either close it or merge with existing threads....

Am done with this thread.........good riddance........


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## Moorkh

the police (an arm of the govt of J&K) uses rubber bullets (a proven non lethal means of crowd control) and still its the mistake of the GoI and its opressive policies.

bravo to the great logic being used here

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## su-47

moha199 said:


> Look man you guys are really pushing this stuff!!! again i say i thought these protests started off peacful!!!!!! meaning these recent protests and rallies... God dam. do you guys even think before you guys reply... lol I remember very clearing that these protest started off clean and peaceful but then indian security forces killed one guy... next rally was angered and they threw stones and then more then one person was killed then rallies became more angered and things started to go out of hand!!!! wait let me go back.... they are kashmiries and they shouldnt be angery for getting killed... indian security forces has right to kill but when kashmiries come out for protest they better have rose in their hand and say god bless india.... SICK !!!!!



An 11 year old kid was sent out to protest. Whether the protest started off peaceful (you still havent proved that btw) or not, its still really irresponsible of his parents and the other protestors. This is not washington, this is Kashmir. it takes just a few in the crowd to trow stones to turn the protest violent. and any person in Kashmi should know that. To still send the kid out there shows *their* sick mentality.

The police used rubber bullets. It has an almost 0% chance of killing. So this death is an unfortunate tragedy not a deliberate attempt. The real murderers of this child are the ones who sent him out knowing things could go out of hand.

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## A.Muqeet khan

Coltsfan said:


> Selective reading?
> 
> It is unfortunate that the kid had to die......... however..... Indian forces have tried to use non-lethal force to minimize the causalities.
> 
> I am sure the protesters are gonna take his death to further incite the population.
> 
> Can't fire roses at people who are throwing at stones at you......
> 
> I regret the kid had to die, but his parents should have thought about this once before letting him throw stones at Indian forces......
> 
> About time the so called warriors stop using kids and women as cannon fodder in their "struggle" for independence.



yar what r u talking about its barbaric ok barbaric its look as if u are to kill the mob rather then quell them not a good thing


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## A.Muqeet khan

Coltsfan said:


> Selective reading?
> 
> It is unfortunate that the kid had to die......... however..... Indian forces have tried to use non-lethal force to minimize the causalities.
> 
> I am sure the protesters are gonna take his death to further incite the population.
> 
> Can't fire roses at people who are throwing at stones at you......
> 
> I regret the kid had to die, but his parents should have thought about this once before letting him throw stones at Indian forces......
> 
> About time the so called warriors stop using kids and women as cannon fodder in their "struggle" for independence.



yar what r u talking about its barbaric ok barbaric its look as if u are to kill the mob rather then quell them not a good thing


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## A.Muqeet khan

Bojitive neuj said:


> *No one was aimed at and shot*. Is it too difficult for you to understand??
> 
> Had it been a 79 year old chacha, what difference would it have made? He would have been still a rioter.
> 
> Police fired to quell the demonstartors throwing stones and causing damage to public property by burning and stuffs and not specifically taking minors on target.
> 
> Although killing of any Individual is very very sad and condemnable. But you people are taking it too far as if the police is specifically targetting children.
> 
> As far as going to hell is concerned, those who pay and provoke these people to make riots, sitting accross the borders and exporting terror to the world arent going to the "Jannat" anyway. Make no mistake, They already have a group reservation in hell. Some hell has already came down to them recently in advance.



yeah rite i saw that coming but accept it or not the things are very crucial for u ppl nearly every family had lost a person ok so things look bleak in long future just wait and seee


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## somebozo

Under international law Pakistan has every right to welcome and protect refugees from war ravaged areas. Same clause has been used during Afghan war and East-Pakistan war by India. How do Indians react to same tactics being used against them?? The Kashmiris are suffering for past 63 years and its about time to take action. Pakistan should also invite China and muslim countries in its bold action.

In todays news



> *Fresh protests against Indian rule in Kashmir *
> Source: http://arabnews.com/world/article121509.ece
> 
> A Kashmiri protester shouts pro-freedom slogans after hearing of Yasir Rafiq Sheikh&#8217;s death in Srinagar on Tuesday. Eleven-year-old Sheikh, a cousin of senior separatist leader Yasin Malik, along with four other persons was injured on Monday, when police allegedly opened fire on a group of youths. Residents defied a curfew to hold angry demonstrations against Indian rule. (Reuters)
> 
> By ASSOCIATED PRESS
> 
> Published: Sep 1, 2010 00:47 Updated: Sep 1, 2010 01:23
> 
> SRINAGAR: Thousands of angry residents defied a curfew in the Indian portion of Kashmir on Tuesday, protesting the overnight killing of an 11-year-old boy by government forces, police said.
> 
> Fifteen people were wounded in the southern town of Anantnag late Monday when government forces shot into a crowd despite an appeal last week from Prime Minister Manmohan Singh that they use non-lethal measures to control the demonstrations that have become a near daily occurrence in the volatile region.
> 
> At least 65 people have died in anti-India demonstrations and clashes between security forces and protesters in Kashmir since June. Each death has triggered more protests despite a rigid curfew in the Kashmir valley.
> 
> Anger against Indian rule runs deep in the region, which is divided between Hindu-majority India and predominantly Muslim Pakistan and claimed by both nuclear-armed nations in its entirety.
> 
> The latest deadly unrest against Indian rule shows no signs of abating despite the deployment of thousands of troops.
> 
> Thousands of residents marched in Anantnag early Tuesday within hours of the death of the young boy.
> 
> Police and paramilitary soldiers fired warning shots and tear gas to quell the protests, wounding three people, said a police officer on condition of anonymity as he was not authorized to speak to media.
> 
> In Srinagar, the region's main city, hundreds of men, women and children also held angry protests. They chanted &#8220;Go India, go back&#8221; and &#8220;We want freedom.&#8221; Police and paramilitary soldiers withdrew from the area to avoid clashes but sealed off the streets with razor wire and steel barricades.
> 
> Meanwhile, India's army said Tuesday it killed nine suspected rebels as they tried to sneak into the Indian portion of Kashmir from the Pakistani side.
> 
> The nine were killed in a fierce fighting with the army over the past two days in Uri, a remote region west of Srinagar, said Col. Vineet Sood, an army spokesman.
> 
> The area is close to the highly militarized cease-fire line that divides Kashmir between India and Pakistan. There were no casualties among the Indian soldiers.
> 
> There was no independent confirmation of the army's claim.

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## GentlemanObserver

^

How are they refugees? They are not Displaced, they are living in disputed territory...


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## Gentle Typhoon

hell yes, India also wants same thing, trouble makers go to Pakistan, let other 95&#37; Indian pro live in peace.


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## GentlemanObserver

Gentle Typhoon said:


> hell yes, India also wants same thing, trouble makers go to Pakistan, let other 95% Indian pro live in peace.



No thanks you keep em.

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## Agnostic_Indian

Most welcome to do so..we will also help in this regard..cheers.


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## d14gtc

Strange to find all this what those people expecting in return.... That forces will give them a Red carpet welcome,take them for a fabulous treat and then provide a VIP fareoff....Wont unstand y parents let these little kids to the street to fight with Forces even when knowing nething could happen in such situation... from this it seems even they intentionally wanted to escalate the grim situation to the worst...... They still haven recognised who are using them from behind the scenes (whos own kids are living abroad n spending kings life)

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## Urbanized Greyhound

A brilliant idea.....even better to have it coming from a Pakistani concerned about "kashmiri welfare"......let all those who want to leave india do so immediately.....then they can see for themselves the living conditions in their so called "liberated" land.....they can report back about how much serious welfare efforts they were shown...should be a real eye opener for everyone......


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## NoEscape

Glad to know Pakistan is offering a solution to root-cause of Kashmiri 's trouble. Take back all these troublemaker & allow peace in the Valley!!! 
Afterall, Padosi hi padosi ke kaam aata hai.

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## Trac

*What a fu(ker those so called freedom fighter is 

using small kids and womes as their sheild shame on them*

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## gondwana

people in kashmir should realize that they would go to dogs if they mingle themselves into pak. india is a better place for them... more jobs, more tourists,more development.. but if they go to pak, they are treated as mere mujahirs..  they wud be slayed by the afghan talibans for going to schools and learning science.. thats pakistan for u..


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## Spring Onion

Gentle Typhoon said:


> hell yes, India also wants same thing, trouble makers go to Pakistan,* let other 95% Indian pro live in peace.*


*
Only if that 95% pro-India Terrorist Indian Army get out of the Country of Kashmiris, there will be peace in the entire region *

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## Trac

.............


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## GentlemanObserver

Trac said:


> Where your angle Pakistani army rules ????





> angle




Spell checker is hard?

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## EjazR

The fact of that matter is, those misguided youth who went over to Paksitan for training are coming back. So there is a reverse flow of "refugees"

I guess this proves that although things are bad, its not so bad. Otherwise you would defintely have seen refugees moving into Pakistan as we had almost 10-15 million refugees move into India during the East Pakistan/Bangladesh crisis.

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## duhastmish

it should be one way ticket. 

send all of them kashimiri who want peace to the god's own land - pakistan.

let the rest of them evil minded people who want to be rules by devil's own army stay in india. 

that will solve the whole issue of kashmir.

*Only if it was about people ................. its all about resource in kashmir , water fertile land and high mountain peak to safe gaurd your country,*


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## Leviza

Trac said:


> Btw how much peace in entire Pakistan specially in SWAT and baluch???
> 
> 
> Where your angle Pakistani army rules ????



I think its still better then Kashmir and Other indian troubled areas where indians dont have any control now....... I am a baloch, and Proud Pakistani ..... All troubles in Balochistan is indian created and all young baloch are with Pakistan so soon you will learn how baloch take thier revange........

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## somebozo

Leviza said:


> I think its still better then Kashmir and Other indian troubled areas where indians dont have any control now....... I am a baloch, and Proud Pakistani ..... All troubles in Balochistan is indian created and all young baloch are with Pakistan so soon you will learn how baloch take thier revange........



You forgot the role of Baluch sardars who keep secret india passports and are instruments of RAW. I have many Baluchi friends who are more patrotic than I am.  despite some of them have become Saudi nationals their loyality has not changed.


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## Spring Onion

EjazR said:


> The fact of that matter is, those misguided youth who went over to Paksitan for training are coming back. So there is a reverse flow of "refugees"
> 
> I guess this proves that although things are bad, its not so bad. Otherwise you would defintely have seen refugees moving into Pakistan as we had almost 10-15 million refugees move into India during the East Pakistan/Bangladesh crisis.




Those wailing women and children crossing over to Azad Kashmir due to Indian terrorism are not terrorists rather helpless people.

The following is not the entire date rather up to 2005 some figures. its much more than this.


Kashmiri Refugees: Facts, Issues and the Future Ahead 



Abstract

[The last 16 years have witnessed continuous pouring of Kashimiris into different parts of Azad Kashmir. The suppression, gross human rights violations and relentless atrocities in Indian Held Kashmir (IHK) leave little choice for them but to seek refuge across the line of control (LoC). Unprecedented number and wild attitude of the Indian occupational forces point to a vicious mission. The accomplishment seems to be heavily dependent on the successful outcome of either thorough subjugation or mass displacement of people. The latter seems to be working. These displaced from the war torn region, IHK, are faced with too many problems. Ironically they can neither expect to be treated as immigrants in the real sense of the term nor can they be taken as formal refugees. For all practical purposes, they are forced to find a new sanctuary in the same territory, though disputed and superficially demarcated, called Kashmir. This article, in this backdrop, uses the term refugee to describe the individuals and families who have moved across the line of control and now living in designated camps in Azad Kashmir.

Coming from an already deprived region, these refugees are going through tremendous hardship. The assistance provided to them merely suffices for their day to day survival. The international agencies such as UNHCR, known for taking care of displaced world over, are non-existent here. The other non governmental organizations are also not showing any interest in providing relief and sustainable assistance to improve their living standard or the quality of life. The piece discusses in detail the background of migration and the current state of affairs. It sheds light on legal and constitutional context and refugees right to return to their hometowns. The study also brings in to focus the plight of refugees and their crucial economical, social, educational and health related issues. It also discusses the governments limitations and lack of seriousness towards addressing their problems whole heartedly. In the end, the paper offers plausible measures for dealing with their problems and points to a concrete yet long-term strategy for their rehabilitation as an imperative. Editor]


*Introduction**

The human rights violations in Indian-held Jammu and Kashmir and the Kashmiris unprecedented struggle have been the subject of, literally, hundreds of books and thousands of articles; abundant information is available on every aspect. Surprisingly, however, the migration that began from the State in the 1990s and the difficulties faced by the refugees who arrived in Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK) have rarely been a topic of discussion. When the reasons for this are explored, it becomes apparent that the majority of refugees hail from a very backward segment of the Jammu and Kashmir population, most of them living below the poverty line. They neither found appropriate leadership, nor included many educated individuals. As a result, even after their arrival in Azad Kashmir, they were unable to emerge as a collective voice. The local leadership was also unable to pay due attention to their problems.

*During the last 15 years (19902005), there has been migration from more or less all points along the 750-kilometer Line of Control (LoC). Although the extent of migration varies from area to area, the presence of refugee camps in most districts of Azad Kashmir bears testimony to the fact that suppression on the other side of the LoC has grown consistently.*

Although the Government of Pakistan/AJK provides regular assistance to refugee families to meet their day-to-day needs, it is considerably insufficient for the dispossessed families. A few non-governmental organizations (NGOs) are also actively supporting the refugees but their roles are limited and their resources even more so.

International institutions, particularly the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR), have provided considerable support for the rehabilitation of displaced families and individuals the world over; Kashmiri refugees have, however, remained deprived of their help. While the indifference of the international agencies is also an issue, lack of the Government interest in involving these agencies is equally regrettable. No efforts have been made to seek assistance from foreign governments and NGOs either.

Meanwhile, refugees continue to arrive and settle at camps, indicating that decisions need to be made to pave the way for long-term and concrete planning for their rehabilitation and proper settlement.

The objective of this paper is to study the current situation and the problems facing the refugees in order to facilitate an understanding of the issue in its proper perspective, and to suggest practical steps for the refugees relief and rehabilitation, keeping in view their cultural, religious and political background and aspirations.
Kashmiris Migration  A Brief Review

*194748*

Migration started from the State of Jammu and Kashmir during 194748 against the backdrop of the partition of British India and its aftermath. According to the Subcontinents Partition Agenda, agreed to by all the three concerned parties of the time, namely the Raj, All Indian National Congress and the All India Muslim League, this Muslim-majority State, spreading over 84,471 square miles, should have been made part of Pakistan. Unfortunately, however, the Congress leadership, British Viceroy Lord Louis Mountbatten (19001979) and the Hindu Maharaja of the State, Hari Singh (1895 1961), flouted the Partition Plan as well as majority public opinion of the State, and maneuvered a forced annexation of Jammu and Kashmir with India.[1]

Hari Singh and the Congress leadership knew that the majority of the States populace was inclined to link its future with Pakistan; the Maharajas own preference, however, was that the State should remain independent or accede to India. Sensing the Maharajas intentions, the States Muslim majority started organizing resistance forces in the border districts, particularly in Poonch. In order to maintain his stranglehold, the Maharaja initiated systematic tyranny and torture against the resistance movement. His aim was to spread fear and panic, not only to deter people from resisting his forces, but also to compel them into an exodus to Pakistan so that the demographic hurdle of the States Muslim majority could be removed altogether.[2] The Maharaja invited the Rashtriya Sevak Singh (RSS), and the organized Sikh groups of extremists from East Punjab.[3] These circumstances compelled a large number of the local Muslims to migrate to Pakistan. According to the official figures, they currently make up around 1.5 million in Pakistans population alone.[4]

*1965 and 1971*

The next large-scale migration from Jammu and Kashmir took place during and after the 1965 war between India and Pakistan. During this war, the sympathies of the majority of the Kashmiris lay naturally with Pakistan. The inhabitants of the border districts of Poonch, Rajouri, Kapwara and Baramula provided considerable assistance to the Pakistani forces. As the war ended  yielding no conclusive results  the Indian army started a reign of terror against the Muslims in those areas. Numerous families and, in some cases, entire neighborhoods were wiped out. As a result, large-scale migration occurred from the border districts, especially from Rajori and Poonch. According to statistics of the AJK Governments Department of Rehabilitation and Relief, around 10,000 families, including approximately 40,000 people, migrated during this period. The AJK Government resettled these refugees in Chhump (1,771 families) and Jhang (7,969 families).[5]

The third wave of migration took place during the 1971 India-Pakistan war. Since the main war occurred in East Pakistan, few families in Indian-held Kashmir were directly affected while the conflict took place. Afterwards, however, as the war had resulted in the loss of East Pakistan, India was bolder in its brutality towards Kashmiri Muslims. An estimated 10,000 people from border districts entered into Azad Kashmir and, on this occasion, were resettled locally.[6]
The Recent Arrivals (1990Present)

The current wave of migration began in 1990 and continues even today. Since it is a current problem, its causes and nature are discussed here in some detail.
Kashmiri Resistance: During the State Elections of 1987, the administration of Indian-held Jammu and Kashmir displayed blatant deceit and arbitrariness, dashing all the hopes that the Kashmiri Muslim youth had entertained from the political process.

A number of regional developments also affected Kashmiris. They were deeply moved by the revolution in Iran (February 1979) and by the armed resistance against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan (1979-1990), which played an important role in turning their restlessness against Indian rule into a revolt and resistance. Important international changes also took place: the Berlin Wall fell, and many countries attained freedom following the Soviet Unions collapse.

The changes had a special impact on Kashmiris, especially on the youth.[7] They motivated Kashmiris towards militancy. Resistance, Jihad and Hatred of India became popular slogans and resistance began taking shape in the form of various organizations. Some of these became the platforms from which the Kashmiri youth initiated an armed struggle.[8]
The Indian Strategy against the Uprising: Following their failure to quell the youth, the Indian forces changed their strategy and started committing atrocities against civilians, including women and children. This approach continues even today. In this situation, there is an obvious desire among Kashmiris to escape. The prevailing circumstances, however, make it difficult for them to leave their homes and migrate: the LoC is strictly monitored by the Indian forces; an extensive intelligence network exists, and miles of army bunkers make it almost impossible to pass without being noticed. Nevertheless, owing to the brutality of the Indian forces, migration to Azad Kashmir has continued.

The plight of the people in districts bordering the LoC  Baramula, Kapwara, Tehsil Uri, Karnah and Poonch  is especially pitiable. This is why a large portion of refugees hails from these areas. Indian forces commit more heinous atrocities in these areas because they think that the local public assists and guides the freedom fighters in crossing the LoC and bringing in arms and ammunition from Azad Kashmir. The occupation forces also feel that the locals conduct espionage for Pakistan.[9]

Another reason for the extraordinary oppression in the bordering districts is to force the people to leave and cross over into Azad Kashmir. This would serve two purposes for India: firstly, it would get rid of a significant segment of the local population that stands for freedom and sides with Pakistan; and secondly, it would contribute in facilitating the age-old Indian design to steadily expel the Muslims from the area until they are no longer a majority.[10]

As part of this special strategy for Kashmirs border areas, the Indian Government introduced a Pass Law to control the peoples movement. Under the garb of this law, Indian Army officials break into the local peoples houses any time they please and, on the pretext of checking Passes, separate the menfolk from the women. Such occasions commonly entail sexual abuse, theft, torture and maltreatment by the officials. The Indian forces similarly use the Six Month License  commonly referred to as special powers  to arrest people for investigation without citing any reasons. Sometimes, when the six-month arrest period expires, an individual is released for a few minutes before being taken into custody for another six months.[11] Since the security forces have legal powers for this, even superior courts are unable to assist innocent civilians.[12]

The district of Kapwara is a special target of the security forces brutality. It is believed by the Indian agencies that it plays a key role in the militant movement, and has, therefore, been subjected to the worst kind of restrictions and punishments. Kapwaras residents have to obtain a permit from the District Magistrate before they can travel to another area. A formal application is submitted for this purpose, stating the purpose of the visit and the date of return. The magistrate sends the application to the local Superintendent Police (SP) and permission is granted only if the SP has no objection. This process normally takes two weeks. Likewise, if a person wishes to visit Kapwara, the purpose and duration of the visit needs to be explained to the army, police and other sensitive agencies of the held State.[13]

These are some of the ways in which Indian forces have made life unlivable in the areas bordering LoC. Given no respite, the hapless people started secretly migrating from the area into Azad Kashmir.[14]

The Refugees views: It was natural for the oppressed people to have sympathies with the freedom fighters, who, in fact, represented for most of them the only glimmer of hope.[15] They paid a heavy price for their support.

A number of refugees who were interviewed narrated horrifying tales of the atrocities they faced. Their homes were searched night and day and the night curfew was clamped immediately after sunset.[16] Often, soldiers arrived at midnight looking for the freedom fighters and when the refugees denied having any knowledge of their whereabouts, they were beaten and tortured. The soldiers forced the local people into hard labor. They made them collect firewood and carry it to their posts high up in the mountains. They were used to transport army goods that arrived from Srinagar and Jammu to military camps.[17] When the weary men returned to their homes in the evening, they found soldiers waiting for them to escort them to check-posts, where they spent the night in the lock-up. In the meantime, their womenfolk remained at the mercy of Indian security forces.[18]

Sometimes women were raped in front of their family members.[19] Life was made impossible for the family and relatives of any person believed to be participating in the freedom struggle. The houses of these so-called insurgents were torched so that their families were left without a roof over their heads.[20]

Steady streams of reports of **** and torture by Indian forces in neighboring villages compelled many people to shift their families to safety in AJK.[21] In Muzafarabads Kamsar Camp, the head of a family reported that his five sons were tortured almost daily by Indian forces. They migrated to escape this situation. When asked why they did not move to Srinagar or Jammu, the general response was that the treatment of Kashmiris by the Indian forces in those areas was more or less the same and they had, therefore, no alternative but to migrate to Azad Kashmir.[22]

Whenever the Indian security forces discovered any link whatsoever of households in the bordering areas with freedom fighters, they responded with pure brutality, and the families had no option but to run for their lives and somehow make it to AJK. At times, they crossed into Azad Kashmir even as they sensed danger from Border Security Force (BSF).

Some refugees had also migrated because they had feared that Pakistan might attack to liberate Kashmir and, unless they moved to a safer location, they would get killed in the crossfire or tortured by the Indian forces.[23] There were some who had migrated thinking that Kashmir would be liberated within a few weeks and they would then return to their homeland. Fifteen years later, they find themselves clueless about when they will be in a position to return.[24]

The Constitutional and Legal Position of Refugees

Although refugees who arrived during and after 1947 have formally settled in different parts of Azad Kashmir and Pakistan and are actively involved in the local social and civil life, the question of their constitutional and legal status is not yet settled. In order to understand this issue, it is helpful to consider the relevant parts of UN resolutions on Kashmir and the existing laws in Indian-held Jammu and Kashmir.

UN Resolutions

The essence of UN Security Council resolutions is the reaffirmation of the Kashmiris right of self-determination. The basic agreement reached for a permanent solution was that the people of Kashmir should decide through a plebiscite whether they wished to join India or Pakistan. Since a significantly large portion of Kashmiri people had to leave their homeland and take refuge in Pakistan, the initial Resolution passed on April 21, 1948 clearly stated that:

The Government of India should ensure that the Government of the State releases all political prisoners and takes all possible steps so that:

(a) all citizens of the State who have left it on account of disturbances are invited and are free to return to their homes and to exercise their rights as such citizens;[25]

The Resolution of January 5, 1949 also spoke about ensuring the return of the refugees. It stated:

All citizens of the State who have left it on account of the disturbances will be invited and be free to return and to exercise all their rights as such citizens. For the purpose of facilitating repatriation there shall be appointed two Commissions, one composed of nominees of India and the other of nominees of Pakistan[26]

Responding to the Indian allegations at the UN Security Council in January 1948 that Pakistan was committing interference in Jammu and Kashmir, Pakistans Foreign Minister, Sir Mohammad Zafarullah Khan (18931958), stated Pakistans position and demanded:

The refugees who had left for Pakistan because of the unbearable atrocities of the Dogra and Indian army should be allowed to return to the State...[27]

In fact, in both UN Security Council Resolutions, the provisions that gave the refugees the right to return to their homeland and to play a role in deciding its future were based on this demand from Pakistan. These Resolutions establish that all refugees who have left Indian-held Jammu and Kashmir for Azad Kashmir or Pakistan since 1947 are in fact citizens of the Indian-held State and have the right to exercise their option in the UN-sponsored plebiscite.

*The Right to Return: The State Laws*

In 1980, the Indian Government pressured the State Government of Jammu and Kashmir to accord state citizenship to the displaced persons from Pakistan.[28] The Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir, Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah (19051982), refused to accept this demand, stating that conferment of State citizenship was the prerogative of the State Government, not Delhi. Despite his stand, great pressure remained on Sheikh Abdullahs administration. In response, Sheikh Abdullah raised a question: If the newcomers were state citizens, what of the State citizens who had migrated during or after 1947 to Pakistan or another country, or who were settled in other part of the State, Azad Jammu and Kashmir? He took the position of according these State subjects the right to return. Against this backdrop, a Re-establishment Bill was presented in the State Assembly on March 8, 1980, and was passed in April 1982, after Farooq Abdullah came to power, as The Jammu and Kashmir Grant of Permit of Re-settlement in the State Act 1982.[29] However, the Indian President at the time, Giani Zail Singh (19161994), referred the Act to the Supreme Court of India for its opinion on whether it was in conflict with the constitution.[30]

Some 19 years later, on November 6, 2001, the Supreme Court of India returned the Bill without any decision, declaring that in this manner, the Bill that had been passed by the State Assembly had automatically become law. The Court respected the fact that the Bill had become an Act since 1982.[31] But on February 1, 2002, after hearing a writ petition lodged by the Jammu and Kashmir Panther Party, the Supreme Court of India issued an injunction against implementation of the Act until further orders. To all appearances, the issue had once again been consigned to cold storage.[32]

Notwithstanding these events, even today, the general view among Kashmiri refugees is that they will return to their ancestral homes after the Kashmir issue has been resolved. Under another law passed in Indian-held Jammu and Kashmir  the Evacuees Act of 1949  refugees assets have been taken under protection and are only allotted on lease (although in some cases the duration of lease is 40, 50 or 90 years). The Government does not give complete ownership to anyone so that the assets can be returned to the real owners whenever they return.[33]

*Status, Organization and Living Arrangements in Azad Kashmir*

Individuals and families migrating from Indian-held Kashmir have been officially accommodated by the Government of Azad Kashmir at camps in various areas. Once they are registered, the refugees are also provided regular assistance for monthly expenses. There are now 15 such camps, housing 24,574 refugees.[34]

The initial period of migration, from 1990 to 1994, was one of great discomfort for refugees. During these years, no formal camps existed and the Government housed them at scattered official or rented locations. For accommodation, they were given tents, which did not have enough provisions for privacy or for protection against the weather. In the rainy season, their homes stood on pools of water and the few goods they had were ruined. Diseases spread fast. The personal and marital lives of many families were badly affected.[35]

In 1994, it was agreed between the Azad Kashmir Department of Rehabilitation and the Government of Pakistan that the tented settlements would be replaced with proper huts. The administration provided iron sheets, cheap timber and land. The rest of the work was done by refugees on a self-help basis, although, on a few occasions, some NGOs also provided assistance in construction. In this manner, each family managed to construct some rooms, temporary or permanent, for itself.[36]

A number of political organizations participated in the provision of health and educational facilities and construction of mosques at the camps, in particular, the Jamaat-e-Islami, which was directly involved. Individuals affiliated with the organization also demonstrated their interest independently. Schools, mosques and health units were established. At present, not a single family residing in a camp lives in a tent. Moreover, in January 2002, the AJK Government established a special camp for refugees that is equipped with basic facilities and located 15 kilometers outside Muzaffarabad at Busnara. The Rehabilitation Department allotted each family a 1,200-square-feet (30 x 40 feet) plot, and the required construction blocks. Electricity and road facilities already existed here.[37]

Despite these measures, the area allocated for camps is falling short owing to population growth. In future, more space will be needed even for existing refugee settlements.[38]

While most of the refugees live in camps, a considerable number now reside in rented accommodation in cities like Muzaffarabad and Rawalpindi. They have not settled in the camps for various reasons, such as marriage with local families, mostly among their own relatives who had migrated to AJK earlier. The number of such families stands at present at approximately 720.[39]

It is significant to note that the two groups of refugees  camp residents and city residents  have different perspectives on their problems and future. Before discussing their problems, however, let us take a brief look at the administrative setup for the look-after of refugees.

*The Government of AJK has been striving to resolve the refugees problems since its own inception in 1947. Until 1974, refugees care was the responsibility of the Divisional Commissioner, delegated to him as an additional charge. In 1974, a separate office was set up for the Department. However, the Commissioners additional charge was delegated to a senior official of the Finance Department. Finally, when the current phase of the Freedom Movement began in held Kashmir in 198889 and an influx of refugees was anticipated, a full-time Rehabilitation Commissioner was appointed.[40]*

*Following an established procedure, the Department of Rehabilitation and Relief registers refugees upon their arrival and later issues them an Refugee Card. On the basis of this card, the Government starts providing them a subsistence allowance, admission in educational institutions and medical aid.[41] The Government of AJK currently gives the Department a monthly budget of Rs. 30 million to be spent on subsistence allowances and other refugee matters*.[42]
Kashmiri Refugees: Facts, Issues and the Future Ahead


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## ek_indian

^^^

A very unbiased and relevant source but it was expected.!! 

Anyways, it is upto Pakistan whether it would accept them or not. IMO, it is not a good situation for Pakistan. If it accepts it there are more law-n-order issues as well as humanitarian problems. If it does not, most of these "real" kashmiris would feel cheated.

But is this really happening???

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## NoEscape

Jana said:


> [*The last 16 years *have witnessed continuous pouring of Kashimiris into different parts of Azad Kashmir. The suppression, gross human rights violations and relentless atrocities in Indian Held Kashmir (IHK) leave little choice for them but to seek refuge across the line of control (LoC). [/url]



I have a question, Jana. Why the so called Brutalities & Atrocities of Indian Security forces started only 16yrs back as suggested in your article? Why Kashmiris started crossing over to Pak 0ccupied Kashmir for refuse only 16 yrs back when india & Pakistan become Independent state in 1947? If ,what the article suggests, Indian security Forces turned brutal in Kashmir only in last 16 yrs!!!

Aren't you accepting India's line indirectly that there is cross-brorder terrorism in Kashmir which started in '80s that's why there is large no. of Indian Security Forces in Kashmir to safeguard the interest of the country?

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## d14gtc

somebozo said:


> You forgot the role of Baluch sardars who keep secret india passports and are instruments of RAW. I have many Baluchi friends who are more patrotic than I am.  despite some of them have become Saudi nationals their loyality has not changed.






I have also many kashmiri frenz ...n few visited often... n they are too much more patriotic than i am

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## FreekiN

Coltsfan said:


> How about--- the crowd was distributing "laddus" and the forces fired on them....???
> 
> Would this narrative better suit your pre-conceived notions?
> 
> No wonder Indian and Pakistanis can't have any decent debate......



Pre-conceived? No, more like a judgement after reading the article.

You want to see a pre-conceived judgement? Well here you go:




Trac said:


> *What a fu(ker those so called freedom fighter is
> 
> using small kids and womes as their sheild shame on them*



1. Freedom Fighters never mentioned.
2. They were protesters, not militants.
3. No human shields were mentioned or even implied.
4. An 11 year old boy was killed for what? Nothing but for a couple of rocks he could hardly pick up. And we dont even know if he was throwing them.


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## Tshering22

Ruag said:


> Nine infiltrators killed, gunfight still on
> 
> 
> 
> Nine infiltrators killed, gunfight still on
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Congratulations fellow countrymen! May more of these terrorists face the wrath of the Indian Army.


Great! I hope that none of our soldiers are killed. Other than that, Great job by Army!


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## GK2010

> ]
> 
> Rs.1 lakh in Indian currency have been recovered from the slain terrorists,



lol.. i saw the pic of the 1000rs of the pak currency only.... from the local news paper today.  ..


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## flaming arrow

aahh so much for 72 virgins


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## riju78

d14gtc said:


> I have also many kashmiri frenz ...n few visited often... n they are too much more patriotic than i am



i too have kashmiri friends hindus and muslims....they all r patriotic indians!

i also have a friend from pakistani kashmir who is a proud pakistani


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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

Any latest updates?....the news is a day old now.


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## A.Muqeet khan

gondwana said:


> people in kashmir should realize that they would go to dogs if they mingle themselves into pak. india is a better place for them... more jobs, more tourists,more development.. but if they go to pak, they are treated as mere mujahirs..  they wud be slayed by the afghan talibans for going to schools and learning science.. thats pakistan for u..



yeah now they r geting raped, murdered , abused, robbed, thats india for u


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## IFB

The army was displaying the weapons the terrorist used to the the media---One thing stood out was a 250GB hard drive that was on display---i wonder what that was for---do these terrorist's carry laptop or something


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## Leviza

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *Boy, 11, shot dead in Kashmir​*
> *Human rights campaigners have called on the Indian government to prosecute soldiers and paramilitary police after an 11-year-old boy was shot dead in Kashmir.​*
> By Dean Nelson, New Delhi
> Published: 4:44PM BST 31 Aug 2010
> 
> 
> Kashmiri Muslim protesters shout anti Indian slogans behind a burning tyre during a protest in Srinagar Photo: EPA
> 
> They were speaking amid growing concern over the numbers of teenagers and children killed by Indian security forces during protests in the restive state. Up to 65 have been killed in the last 11 weeks, including a nine-year-old boy whose family claim he was beaten to death by armed police.
> 
> According to witnesses, Irshad Ahmad Parray, 11, was among a group of young men staging an anti-India demonstration when police opened fire on them with rubber bullets.
> 
> He was rushed from the scene in Anantnag to the state capital Srinagar where doctors said he had received pellet wounds to his vital organs and was dead on arrival.
> 
> The death of Irshad caused particular concern among human rights campaigners because he was shot with a rubber bullet which had been issued to reduce the number of civilian deaths. Paramilitary police had been ordered to use 'non-lethal methods of crowd control after Indias prime minister Manmohan Singh voiced his concerns.
> 
> Meenakshi Ganguly of Human Rights Watch said she was increasingly alarmed at police using lethal force as a first option. Its appalling. Were asking for proper training and accountability. Soldiers are not punished, but if they were prosecuted they would be more careful, she said.
> 
> The police said the boy was part of a violent demonstration in which protesters were throwing stones at police.
> 
> His death, and the shooting of a relative of a Kashmiri separatist leader as he played a board game outside his home in Srinagar, sparked fresh protests.
> 
> Yasir Malik, a cousin of Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front leader Yasin Malik, was shot and seriously injured in an apparently unprovoked attack.
> 
> Police sources later said the constable who shot him had been suspended.
> 
> Boy, 11, shot dead in Kashmir - Telegraph




This shows the indian army killing innocent kids ,,,,,,,, i an see kashmir freedom from india as new generation has taken things in thier hand........ This blood of a 11 year old will soon become a light of freedom for kashmir 

world need to open thier eyes and see what indian army is doing in kashmir....

Long live Kashmir and Kashmir is a part of Pakistan ....Inshallah


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## Vikram Morya

Jana said:


> Those wailing women and children crossing over to Azad Kashmir due to Indian terrorism are not terrorists rather helpless people.
> 
> The following is not the entire date rather up to 2005 some figures. its much more than this.
> 
> 
> Kashmiri Refugees: Facts, Issues and the Future Ahead
> 
> 
> 
> Abstract
> 
> [The last 16 years have witnessed continuous pouring of Kashimiris into different parts of Azad Kashmir. The suppression, gross human rights violations and relentless atrocities in Indian Held Kashmir (IHK) leave little choice for them but to seek refuge across the line of control (LoC). Unprecedented number and wild attitude of the Indian occupational forces point to a vicious mission. The accomplishment seems to be heavily dependent on the successful outcome of either thorough subjugation or mass displacement of people. The latter seems to be working. These displaced from the war torn region, IHK, are faced with too many problems. Ironically they can neither expect to be treated as immigrants in the real sense of the term nor can they be taken as formal refugees. For all practical purposes, they are forced to find a new sanctuary in the same territory, though disputed and superficially demarcated, called Kashmir. This article, in this backdrop, uses the term refugee to describe the individuals and families who have moved across the line of control and now living in designated camps in Azad Kashmir.
> 
> Coming from an already deprived region, these refugees are going through tremendous hardship. The assistance provided to them merely suffices for their day to day survival. The international agencies such as UNHCR, known for taking care of displaced world over, are non-existent here. The other non governmental organizations are also not showing any interest in providing relief and sustainable assistance to improve their living standard or the quality of life. The piece discusses in detail the background of migration and the current state of affairs. It sheds light on legal and constitutional context and refugees right to return to their hometowns. The study also brings in to focus the plight of refugees and their crucial economical, social, educational and health related issues. It also discusses the governments limitations and lack of seriousness towards addressing their problems whole heartedly. In the end, the paper offers plausible measures for dealing with their problems and points to a concrete yet long-term strategy for their rehabilitation as an imperative. Editor]
> 
> 
> *Introduction**
> 
> The human rights violations in Indian-held Jammu and Kashmir and the Kashmiris unprecedented struggle have been the subject of, literally, hundreds of books and thousands of articles; abundant information is available on every aspect. Surprisingly, however, the migration that began from the State in the 1990s and the difficulties faced by the refugees who arrived in Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK) have rarely been a topic of discussion. When the reasons for this are explored, it becomes apparent that the majority of refugees hail from a very backward segment of the Jammu and Kashmir population, most of them living below the poverty line. They neither found appropriate leadership, nor included many educated individuals. As a result, even after their arrival in Azad Kashmir, they were unable to emerge as a collective voice. The local leadership was also unable to pay due attention to their problems.
> 
> *During the last 15 years (19902005), there has been migration from more or less all points along the 750-kilometer Line of Control (LoC). Although the extent of migration varies from area to area, the presence of refugee camps in most districts of Azad Kashmir bears testimony to the fact that suppression on the other side of the LoC has grown consistently.*
> 
> Although the Government of Pakistan/AJK provides regular assistance to refugee families to meet their day-to-day needs, it is considerably insufficient for the dispossessed families. A few non-governmental organizations (NGOs) are also actively supporting the refugees but their roles are limited and their resources even more so.
> 
> International institutions, particularly the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR), have provided considerable support for the rehabilitation of displaced families and individuals the world over; Kashmiri refugees have, however, remained deprived of their help. While the indifference of the international agencies is also an issue, lack of the Government interest in involving these agencies is equally regrettable. No efforts have been made to seek assistance from foreign governments and NGOs either.
> 
> Meanwhile, refugees continue to arrive and settle at camps, indicating that decisions need to be made to pave the way for long-term and concrete planning for their rehabilitation and proper settlement.
> 
> The objective of this paper is to study the current situation and the problems facing the refugees in order to facilitate an understanding of the issue in its proper perspective, and to suggest practical steps for the refugees relief and rehabilitation, keeping in view their cultural, religious and political background and aspirations.
> Kashmiris Migration  A Brief Review
> 
> *194748*
> 
> Migration started from the State of Jammu and Kashmir during 194748 against the backdrop of the partition of British India and its aftermath. According to the Subcontinents Partition Agenda, agreed to by all the three concerned parties of the time, namely the Raj, All Indian National Congress and the All India Muslim League, this Muslim-majority State, spreading over 84,471 square miles, should have been made part of Pakistan. Unfortunately, however, the Congress leadership, British Viceroy Lord Louis Mountbatten (19001979) and the Hindu Maharaja of the State, Hari Singh (1895 1961), flouted the Partition Plan as well as majority public opinion of the State, and maneuvered a forced annexation of Jammu and Kashmir with India.[1]
> 
> Hari Singh and the Congress leadership knew that the majority of the States populace was inclined to link its future with Pakistan; the Maharajas own preference, however, was that the State should remain independent or accede to India. Sensing the Maharajas intentions, the States Muslim majority started organizing resistance forces in the border districts, particularly in Poonch. In order to maintain his stranglehold, the Maharaja initiated systematic tyranny and torture against the resistance movement. His aim was to spread fear and panic, not only to deter people from resisting his forces, but also to compel them into an exodus to Pakistan so that the demographic hurdle of the States Muslim majority could be removed altogether.[2] The Maharaja invited the Rashtriya Sevak Singh (RSS), and the organized Sikh groups of extremists from East Punjab.[3] These circumstances compelled a large number of the local Muslims to migrate to Pakistan. According to the official figures, they currently make up around 1.5 million in Pakistans population alone.[4]
> 
> *1965 and 1971*
> 
> The next large-scale migration from Jammu and Kashmir took place during and after the 1965 war between India and Pakistan. During this war, the sympathies of the majority of the Kashmiris lay naturally with Pakistan. The inhabitants of the border districts of Poonch, Rajouri, Kapwara and Baramula provided considerable assistance to the Pakistani forces. As the war ended  yielding no conclusive results  the Indian army started a reign of terror against the Muslims in those areas. Numerous families and, in some cases, entire neighborhoods were wiped out. As a result, large-scale migration occurred from the border districts, especially from Rajori and Poonch. According to statistics of the AJK Governments Department of Rehabilitation and Relief, around 10,000 families, including approximately 40,000 people, migrated during this period. The AJK Government resettled these refugees in Chhump (1,771 families) and Jhang (7,969 families).[5]
> 
> The third wave of migration took place during the 1971 India-Pakistan war. Since the main war occurred in East Pakistan, few families in Indian-held Kashmir were directly affected while the conflict took place. Afterwards, however, as the war had resulted in the loss of East Pakistan, India was bolder in its brutality towards Kashmiri Muslims. An estimated 10,000 people from border districts entered into Azad Kashmir and, on this occasion, were resettled locally.[6]
> The Recent Arrivals (1990Present)
> 
> The current wave of migration began in 1990 and continues even today. Since it is a current problem, its causes and nature are discussed here in some detail.
> Kashmiri Resistance: During the State Elections of 1987, the administration of Indian-held Jammu and Kashmir displayed blatant deceit and arbitrariness, dashing all the hopes that the Kashmiri Muslim youth had entertained from the political process.
> 
> A number of regional developments also affected Kashmiris. They were deeply moved by the revolution in Iran (February 1979) and by the armed resistance against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan (1979-1990), which played an important role in turning their restlessness against Indian rule into a revolt and resistance. Important international changes also took place: the Berlin Wall fell, and many countries attained freedom following the Soviet Unions collapse.
> 
> The changes had a special impact on Kashmiris, especially on the youth.[7] They motivated Kashmiris towards militancy. Resistance, Jihad and Hatred of India became popular slogans and resistance began taking shape in the form of various organizations. Some of these became the platforms from which the Kashmiri youth initiated an armed struggle.[8]
> The Indian Strategy against the Uprising: Following their failure to quell the youth, the Indian forces changed their strategy and started committing atrocities against civilians, including women and children. This approach continues even today. In this situation, there is an obvious desire among Kashmiris to escape. The prevailing circumstances, however, make it difficult for them to leave their homes and migrate: the LoC is strictly monitored by the Indian forces; an extensive intelligence network exists, and miles of army bunkers make it almost impossible to pass without being noticed. Nevertheless, owing to the brutality of the Indian forces, migration to Azad Kashmir has continued.
> 
> The plight of the people in districts bordering the LoC  Baramula, Kapwara, Tehsil Uri, Karnah and Poonch  is especially pitiable. This is why a large portion of refugees hails from these areas. Indian forces commit more heinous atrocities in these areas because they think that the local public assists and guides the freedom fighters in crossing the LoC and bringing in arms and ammunition from Azad Kashmir. The occupation forces also feel that the locals conduct espionage for Pakistan.[9]
> 
> Another reason for the extraordinary oppression in the bordering districts is to force the people to leave and cross over into Azad Kashmir. This would serve two purposes for India: firstly, it would get rid of a significant segment of the local population that stands for freedom and sides with Pakistan; and secondly, it would contribute in facilitating the age-old Indian design to steadily expel the Muslims from the area until they are no longer a majority.[10]
> 
> As part of this special strategy for Kashmirs border areas, the Indian Government introduced a Pass Law to control the peoples movement. Under the garb of this law, Indian Army officials break into the local peoples houses any time they please and, on the pretext of checking Passes, separate the menfolk from the women. Such occasions commonly entail sexual abuse, theft, torture and maltreatment by the officials. The Indian forces similarly use the Six Month License  commonly referred to as special powers  to arrest people for investigation without citing any reasons. Sometimes, when the six-month arrest period expires, an individual is released for a few minutes before being taken into custody for another six months.[11] Since the security forces have legal powers for this, even superior courts are unable to assist innocent civilians.[12]
> 
> The district of Kapwara is a special target of the security forces brutality. It is believed by the Indian agencies that it plays a key role in the militant movement, and has, therefore, been subjected to the worst kind of restrictions and punishments. Kapwaras residents have to obtain a permit from the District Magistrate before they can travel to another area. A formal application is submitted for this purpose, stating the purpose of the visit and the date of return. The magistrate sends the application to the local Superintendent Police (SP) and permission is granted only if the SP has no objection. This process normally takes two weeks. Likewise, if a person wishes to visit Kapwara, the purpose and duration of the visit needs to be explained to the army, police and other sensitive agencies of the held State.[13]
> 
> These are some of the ways in which Indian forces have made life unlivable in the areas bordering LoC. Given no respite, the hapless people started secretly migrating from the area into Azad Kashmir.[14]
> 
> The Refugees views: It was natural for the oppressed people to have sympathies with the freedom fighters, who, in fact, represented for most of them the only glimmer of hope.[15] They paid a heavy price for their support.
> 
> A number of refugees who were interviewed narrated horrifying tales of the atrocities they faced. Their homes were searched night and day and the night curfew was clamped immediately after sunset.[16] Often, soldiers arrived at midnight looking for the freedom fighters and when the refugees denied having any knowledge of their whereabouts, they were beaten and tortured. The soldiers forced the local people into hard labor. They made them collect firewood and carry it to their posts high up in the mountains. They were used to transport army goods that arrived from Srinagar and Jammu to military camps.[17] When the weary men returned to their homes in the evening, they found soldiers waiting for them to escort them to check-posts, where they spent the night in the lock-up. In the meantime, their womenfolk remained at the mercy of Indian security forces.[18]
> 
> Sometimes women were raped in front of their family members.[19] Life was made impossible for the family and relatives of any person believed to be participating in the freedom struggle. The houses of these so-called insurgents were torched so that their families were left without a roof over their heads.[20]
> 
> Steady streams of reports of **** and torture by Indian forces in neighboring villages compelled many people to shift their families to safety in AJK.[21] In Muzafarabads Kamsar Camp, the head of a family reported that his five sons were tortured almost daily by Indian forces. They migrated to escape this situation. When asked why they did not move to Srinagar or Jammu, the general response was that the treatment of Kashmiris by the Indian forces in those areas was more or less the same and they had, therefore, no alternative but to migrate to Azad Kashmir.[22]
> 
> Whenever the Indian security forces discovered any link whatsoever of households in the bordering areas with freedom fighters, they responded with pure brutality, and the families had no option but to run for their lives and somehow make it to AJK. At times, they crossed into Azad Kashmir even as they sensed danger from Border Security Force (BSF).
> 
> Some refugees had also migrated because they had feared that Pakistan might attack to liberate Kashmir and, unless they moved to a safer location, they would get killed in the crossfire or tortured by the Indian forces.[23] There were some who had migrated thinking that Kashmir would be liberated within a few weeks and they would then return to their homeland. Fifteen years later, they find themselves clueless about when they will be in a position to return.[24]
> 
> The Constitutional and Legal Position of Refugees
> 
> Although refugees who arrived during and after 1947 have formally settled in different parts of Azad Kashmir and Pakistan and are actively involved in the local social and civil life, the question of their constitutional and legal status is not yet settled. In order to understand this issue, it is helpful to consider the relevant parts of UN resolutions on Kashmir and the existing laws in Indian-held Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> UN Resolutions
> 
> The essence of UN Security Council resolutions is the reaffirmation of the Kashmiris right of self-determination. The basic agreement reached for a permanent solution was that the people of Kashmir should decide through a plebiscite whether they wished to join India or Pakistan. Since a significantly large portion of Kashmiri people had to leave their homeland and take refuge in Pakistan, the initial Resolution passed on April 21, 1948 clearly stated that:
> 
> The Government of India should ensure that the Government of the State releases all political prisoners and takes all possible steps so that:
> 
> (a) all citizens of the State who have left it on account of disturbances are invited and are free to return to their homes and to exercise their rights as such citizens;[25]
> 
> The Resolution of January 5, 1949 also spoke about ensuring the return of the refugees. It stated:
> 
> All citizens of the State who have left it on account of the disturbances will be invited and be free to return and to exercise all their rights as such citizens. For the purpose of facilitating repatriation there shall be appointed two Commissions, one composed of nominees of India and the other of nominees of Pakistan[26]
> 
> Responding to the Indian allegations at the UN Security Council in January 1948 that Pakistan was committing interference in Jammu and Kashmir, Pakistans Foreign Minister, Sir Mohammad Zafarullah Khan (18931958), stated Pakistans position and demanded:
> 
> The refugees who had left for Pakistan because of the unbearable atrocities of the Dogra and Indian army should be allowed to return to the State...[27]
> 
> In fact, in both UN Security Council Resolutions, the provisions that gave the refugees the right to return to their homeland and to play a role in deciding its future were based on this demand from Pakistan. These Resolutions establish that all refugees who have left Indian-held Jammu and Kashmir for Azad Kashmir or Pakistan since 1947 are in fact citizens of the Indian-held State and have the right to exercise their option in the UN-sponsored plebiscite.
> 
> *The Right to Return: The State Laws*
> 
> In 1980, the Indian Government pressured the State Government of Jammu and Kashmir to accord state citizenship to the displaced persons from Pakistan.[28] The Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir, Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah (19051982), refused to accept this demand, stating that conferment of State citizenship was the prerogative of the State Government, not Delhi. Despite his stand, great pressure remained on Sheikh Abdullahs administration. In response, Sheikh Abdullah raised a question: If the newcomers were state citizens, what of the State citizens who had migrated during or after 1947 to Pakistan or another country, or who were settled in other part of the State, Azad Jammu and Kashmir? He took the position of according these State subjects the right to return. Against this backdrop, a Re-establishment Bill was presented in the State Assembly on March 8, 1980, and was passed in April 1982, after Farooq Abdullah came to power, as The Jammu and Kashmir Grant of Permit of Re-settlement in the State Act 1982.[29] However, the Indian President at the time, Giani Zail Singh (19161994), referred the Act to the Supreme Court of India for its opinion on whether it was in conflict with the constitution.[30]
> 
> Some 19 years later, on November 6, 2001, the Supreme Court of India returned the Bill without any decision, declaring that in this manner, the Bill that had been passed by the State Assembly had automatically become law. The Court respected the fact that the Bill had become an Act since 1982.[31] But on February 1, 2002, after hearing a writ petition lodged by the Jammu and Kashmir Panther Party, the Supreme Court of India issued an injunction against implementation of the Act until further orders. To all appearances, the issue had once again been consigned to cold storage.[32]
> 
> Notwithstanding these events, even today, the general view among Kashmiri refugees is that they will return to their ancestral homes after the Kashmir issue has been resolved. Under another law passed in Indian-held Jammu and Kashmir  the Evacuees Act of 1949  refugees assets have been taken under protection and are only allotted on lease (although in some cases the duration of lease is 40, 50 or 90 years). The Government does not give complete ownership to anyone so that the assets can be returned to the real owners whenever they return.[33]
> 
> *Status, Organization and Living Arrangements in Azad Kashmir*
> 
> Individuals and families migrating from Indian-held Kashmir have been officially accommodated by the Government of Azad Kashmir at camps in various areas. Once they are registered, the refugees are also provided regular assistance for monthly expenses. There are now 15 such camps, housing 24,574 refugees.[34]
> 
> The initial period of migration, from 1990 to 1994, was one of great discomfort for refugees. During these years, no formal camps existed and the Government housed them at scattered official or rented locations. For accommodation, they were given tents, which did not have enough provisions for privacy or for protection against the weather. In the rainy season, their homes stood on pools of water and the few goods they had were ruined. Diseases spread fast. The personal and marital lives of many families were badly affected.[35]
> 
> In 1994, it was agreed between the Azad Kashmir Department of Rehabilitation and the Government of Pakistan that the tented settlements would be replaced with proper huts. The administration provided iron sheets, cheap timber and land. The rest of the work was done by refugees on a self-help basis, although, on a few occasions, some NGOs also provided assistance in construction. In this manner, each family managed to construct some rooms, temporary or permanent, for itself.[36]
> 
> A number of political organizations participated in the provision of health and educational facilities and construction of mosques at the camps, in particular, the Jamaat-e-Islami, which was directly involved. Individuals affiliated with the organization also demonstrated their interest independently. Schools, mosques and health units were established. At present, not a single family residing in a camp lives in a tent. Moreover, in January 2002, the AJK Government established a special camp for refugees that is equipped with basic facilities and located 15 kilometers outside Muzaffarabad at Busnara. The Rehabilitation Department allotted each family a 1,200-square-feet (30 x 40 feet) plot, and the required construction blocks. Electricity and road facilities already existed here.[37]
> 
> Despite these measures, the area allocated for camps is falling short owing to population growth. In future, more space will be needed even for existing refugee settlements.[38]
> 
> While most of the refugees live in camps, a considerable number now reside in rented accommodation in cities like Muzaffarabad and Rawalpindi. They have not settled in the camps for various reasons, such as marriage with local families, mostly among their own relatives who had migrated to AJK earlier. The number of such families stands at present at approximately 720.[39]
> 
> It is significant to note that the two groups of refugees  camp residents and city residents  have different perspectives on their problems and future. Before discussing their problems, however, let us take a brief look at the administrative setup for the look-after of refugees.
> 
> *The Government of AJK has been striving to resolve the refugees problems since its own inception in 1947. Until 1974, refugees care was the responsibility of the Divisional Commissioner, delegated to him as an additional charge. In 1974, a separate office was set up for the Department. However, the Commissioners additional charge was delegated to a senior official of the Finance Department. Finally, when the current phase of the Freedom Movement began in held Kashmir in 198889 and an influx of refugees was anticipated, a full-time Rehabilitation Commissioner was appointed.[40]*
> 
> *Following an established procedure, the Department of Rehabilitation and Relief registers refugees upon their arrival and later issues them an Refugee Card. On the basis of this card, the Government starts providing them a subsistence allowance, admission in educational institutions and medical aid.[41] The Government of AJK currently gives the Department a monthly budget of Rs. 30 million to be spent on subsistence allowances and other refugee matters*.[42]
> Kashmiri Refugees: Facts, Issues and the Future Ahead



Jana, you tried so hard to write this all crap, even any Indian bother to read your post seriously, all your post is just dumb post and entertain to all of us, you should change your avtar to a Joker

well Jna keep it up- great humor indeed

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## indian_for_peace

Leviza said:


> This shows the indian army killing innocent kids ,,,,,,,, i an see kashmir freedom from india as new generation has taken things in thier hand........ This blood of a 11 year old will soon become a light of freedom for kashmir
> 
> *Sorry brother this shows how low these so called seperatist can go. They using 11 years boy to shield themselves. Shame on them. They shd wear bangles in there hands.*
> 
> Long live Kashmir and Kashmir is a part of Pakistan ....Inshallah
> 
> *Kashmir was always been secular and will not be divided in the name of religion . It will never be part of Islamic republic of Pakistan. It will be with Secular India forever.
> *

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## Vikram Morya

Jana said:


> Those wailing women and children crossing over to Azad Kashmir due to Indian terrorism are not terrorists rather helpless people.
> 
> The following is not the entire date rather up to 2005 some figures. its much more than this.
> 
> 
> Kashmiri Refugees: Facts, Issues and the Future Ahead
> 
> 
> 
> Abstract
> 
> [The last 16 years have witnessed continuous pouring of Kashimiris into different parts of Azad Kashmir. The suppression, gross human rights violations and relentless atrocities in Indian Held Kashmir (IHK) leave little choice for them but to seek refuge across the line of control (LoC). Unprecedented number and wild attitude of the Indian occupational forces point to a vicious mission. The accomplishment seems to be heavily dependent on the successful outcome of either thorough subjugation or mass displacement of people. The latter seems to be working. These displaced from the war torn region, IHK, are faced with too many problems. Ironically they can neither expect to be treated as immigrants in the real sense of the term nor can they be taken as formal refugees. For all practical purposes, they are forced to find a new sanctuary in the same territory, though disputed and superficially demarcated, called Kashmir. This article, in this backdrop, uses the term refugee to describe the individuals and families who have moved across the line of control and now living in designated camps in Azad Kashmir.
> 
> Coming from an already deprived region, these refugees are going through tremendous hardship. The assistance provided to them merely suffices for their day to day survival. The international agencies such as UNHCR, known for taking care of displaced world over, are non-existent here. The other non governmental organizations are also not showing any interest in providing relief and sustainable assistance to improve their living standard or the quality of life. The piece discusses in detail the background of migration and the current state of affairs. It sheds light on legal and constitutional context and refugees right to return to their hometowns. The study also brings in to focus the plight of refugees and their crucial economical, social, educational and health related issues. It also discusses the governments limitations and lack of seriousness towards addressing their problems whole heartedly. In the end, the paper offers plausible measures for dealing with their problems and points to a concrete yet long-term strategy for their rehabilitation as an imperative. Editor]
> 
> 
> *Introduction**
> 
> The human rights violations in Indian-held Jammu and Kashmir and the Kashmiris unprecedented struggle have been the subject of, literally, hundreds of books and thousands of articles; abundant information is available on every aspect. Surprisingly, however, the migration that began from the State in the 1990s and the difficulties faced by the refugees who arrived in Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK) have rarely been a topic of discussion. When the reasons for this are explored, it becomes apparent that the majority of refugees hail from a very backward segment of the Jammu and Kashmir population, most of them living below the poverty line. They neither found appropriate leadership, nor included many educated individuals. As a result, even after their arrival in Azad Kashmir, they were unable to emerge as a collective voice. The local leadership was also unable to pay due attention to their problems.
> 
> *During the last 15 years (19902005), there has been migration from more or less all points along the 750-kilometer Line of Control (LoC). Although the extent of migration varies from area to area, the presence of refugee camps in most districts of Azad Kashmir bears testimony to the fact that suppression on the other side of the LoC has grown consistently.*
> 
> Although the Government of Pakistan/AJK provides regular assistance to refugee families to meet their day-to-day needs, it is considerably insufficient for the dispossessed families. A few non-governmental organizations (NGOs) are also actively supporting the refugees but their roles are limited and their resources even more so.
> 
> International institutions, particularly the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR), have provided considerable support for the rehabilitation of displaced families and individuals the world over; Kashmiri refugees have, however, remained deprived of their help. While the indifference of the international agencies is also an issue, lack of the Government interest in involving these agencies is equally regrettable. No efforts have been made to seek assistance from foreign governments and NGOs either.
> 
> Meanwhile, refugees continue to arrive and settle at camps, indicating that decisions need to be made to pave the way for long-term and concrete planning for their rehabilitation and proper settlement.
> 
> The objective of this paper is to study the current situation and the problems facing the refugees in order to facilitate an understanding of the issue in its proper perspective, and to suggest practical steps for the refugees relief and rehabilitation, keeping in view their cultural, religious and political background and aspirations.
> Kashmiris Migration  A Brief Review
> 
> *194748*
> 
> Migration started from the State of Jammu and Kashmir during 194748 against the backdrop of the partition of British India and its aftermath. According to the Subcontinents Partition Agenda, agreed to by all the three concerned parties of the time, namely the Raj, All Indian National Congress and the All India Muslim League, this Muslim-majority State, spreading over 84,471 square miles, should have been made part of Pakistan. Unfortunately, however, the Congress leadership, British Viceroy Lord Louis Mountbatten (19001979) and the Hindu Maharaja of the State, Hari Singh (1895 1961), flouted the Partition Plan as well as majority public opinion of the State, and maneuvered a forced annexation of Jammu and Kashmir with India.[1]
> 
> Hari Singh and the Congress leadership knew that the majority of the States populace was inclined to link its future with Pakistan; the Maharajas own preference, however, was that the State should remain independent or accede to India. Sensing the Maharajas intentions, the States Muslim majority started organizing resistance forces in the border districts, particularly in Poonch. In order to maintain his stranglehold, the Maharaja initiated systematic tyranny and torture against the resistance movement. His aim was to spread fear and panic, not only to deter people from resisting his forces, but also to compel them into an exodus to Pakistan so that the demographic hurdle of the States Muslim majority could be removed altogether.[2] The Maharaja invited the Rashtriya Sevak Singh (RSS), and the organized Sikh groups of extremists from East Punjab.[3] These circumstances compelled a large number of the local Muslims to migrate to Pakistan. According to the official figures, they currently make up around 1.5 million in Pakistans population alone.[4]
> 
> *1965 and 1971*
> 
> The next large-scale migration from Jammu and Kashmir took place during and after the 1965 war between India and Pakistan. During this war, the sympathies of the majority of the Kashmiris lay naturally with Pakistan. The inhabitants of the border districts of Poonch, Rajouri, Kapwara and Baramula provided considerable assistance to the Pakistani forces. As the war ended  yielding no conclusive results  the Indian army started a reign of terror against the Muslims in those areas. Numerous families and, in some cases, entire neighborhoods were wiped out. As a result, large-scale migration occurred from the border districts, especially from Rajori and Poonch. According to statistics of the AJK Governments Department of Rehabilitation and Relief, around 10,000 families, including approximately 40,000 people, migrated during this period. The AJK Government resettled these refugees in Chhump (1,771 families) and Jhang (7,969 families).[5]
> 
> The third wave of migration took place during the 1971 India-Pakistan war. Since the main war occurred in East Pakistan, few families in Indian-held Kashmir were directly affected while the conflict took place. Afterwards, however, as the war had resulted in the loss of East Pakistan, India was bolder in its brutality towards Kashmiri Muslims. An estimated 10,000 people from border districts entered into Azad Kashmir and, on this occasion, were resettled locally.[6]
> The Recent Arrivals (1990Present)
> 
> The current wave of migration began in 1990 and continues even today. Since it is a current problem, its causes and nature are discussed here in some detail.
> Kashmiri Resistance: During the State Elections of 1987, the administration of Indian-held Jammu and Kashmir displayed blatant deceit and arbitrariness, dashing all the hopes that the Kashmiri Muslim youth had entertained from the political process.
> 
> A number of regional developments also affected Kashmiris. They were deeply moved by the revolution in Iran (February 1979) and by the armed resistance against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan (1979-1990), which played an important role in turning their restlessness against Indian rule into a revolt and resistance. Important international changes also took place: the Berlin Wall fell, and many countries attained freedom following the Soviet Unions collapse.
> 
> The changes had a special impact on Kashmiris, especially on the youth.[7] They motivated Kashmiris towards militancy. Resistance, Jihad and Hatred of India became popular slogans and resistance began taking shape in the form of various organizations. Some of these became the platforms from which the Kashmiri youth initiated an armed struggle.[8]
> The Indian Strategy against the Uprising: Following their failure to quell the youth, the Indian forces changed their strategy and started committing atrocities against civilians, including women and children. This approach continues even today. In this situation, there is an obvious desire among Kashmiris to escape. The prevailing circumstances, however, make it difficult for them to leave their homes and migrate: the LoC is strictly monitored by the Indian forces; an extensive intelligence network exists, and miles of army bunkers make it almost impossible to pass without being noticed. Nevertheless, owing to the brutality of the Indian forces, migration to Azad Kashmir has continued.
> 
> The plight of the people in districts bordering the LoC  Baramula, Kapwara, Tehsil Uri, Karnah and Poonch  is especially pitiable. This is why a large portion of refugees hails from these areas. Indian forces commit more heinous atrocities in these areas because they think that the local public assists and guides the freedom fighters in crossing the LoC and bringing in arms and ammunition from Azad Kashmir. The occupation forces also feel that the locals conduct espionage for Pakistan.[9]
> 
> Another reason for the extraordinary oppression in the bordering districts is to force the people to leave and cross over into Azad Kashmir. This would serve two purposes for India: firstly, it would get rid of a significant segment of the local population that stands for freedom and sides with Pakistan; and secondly, it would contribute in facilitating the age-old Indian design to steadily expel the Muslims from the area until they are no longer a majority.[10]
> 
> As part of this special strategy for Kashmirs border areas, the Indian Government introduced a Pass Law to control the peoples movement. Under the garb of this law, Indian Army officials break into the local peoples houses any time they please and, on the pretext of checking Passes, separate the menfolk from the women. Such occasions commonly entail sexual abuse, theft, torture and maltreatment by the officials. The Indian forces similarly use the Six Month License  commonly referred to as special powers  to arrest people for investigation without citing any reasons. Sometimes, when the six-month arrest period expires, an individual is released for a few minutes before being taken into custody for another six months.[11] Since the security forces have legal powers for this, even superior courts are unable to assist innocent civilians.[12]
> 
> The district of Kapwara is a special target of the security forces brutality. It is believed by the Indian agencies that it plays a key role in the militant movement, and has, therefore, been subjected to the worst kind of restrictions and punishments. Kapwaras residents have to obtain a permit from the District Magistrate before they can travel to another area. A formal application is submitted for this purpose, stating the purpose of the visit and the date of return. The magistrate sends the application to the local Superintendent Police (SP) and permission is granted only if the SP has no objection. This process normally takes two weeks. Likewise, if a person wishes to visit Kapwara, the purpose and duration of the visit needs to be explained to the army, police and other sensitive agencies of the held State.[13]
> 
> These are some of the ways in which Indian forces have made life unlivable in the areas bordering LoC. Given no respite, the hapless people started secretly migrating from the area into Azad Kashmir.[14]
> 
> The Refugees views: It was natural for the oppressed people to have sympathies with the freedom fighters, who, in fact, represented for most of them the only glimmer of hope.[15] They paid a heavy price for their support.
> 
> A number of refugees who were interviewed narrated horrifying tales of the atrocities they faced. Their homes were searched night and day and the night curfew was clamped immediately after sunset.[16] Often, soldiers arrived at midnight looking for the freedom fighters and when the refugees denied having any knowledge of their whereabouts, they were beaten and tortured. The soldiers forced the local people into hard labor. They made them collect firewood and carry it to their posts high up in the mountains. They were used to transport army goods that arrived from Srinagar and Jammu to military camps.[17] When the weary men returned to their homes in the evening, they found soldiers waiting for them to escort them to check-posts, where they spent the night in the lock-up. In the meantime, their womenfolk remained at the mercy of Indian security forces.[18]
> 
> Sometimes women were raped in front of their family members.[19] Life was made impossible for the family and relatives of any person believed to be participating in the freedom struggle. The houses of these so-called insurgents were torched so that their families were left without a roof over their heads.[20]
> 
> Steady streams of reports of **** and torture by Indian forces in neighboring villages compelled many people to shift their families to safety in AJK.[21] In Muzafarabads Kamsar Camp, the head of a family reported that his five sons were tortured almost daily by Indian forces. They migrated to escape this situation. When asked why they did not move to Srinagar or Jammu, the general response was that the treatment of Kashmiris by the Indian forces in those areas was more or less the same and they had, therefore, no alternative but to migrate to Azad Kashmir.[22]
> 
> Whenever the Indian security forces discovered any link whatsoever of households in the bordering areas with freedom fighters, they responded with pure brutality, and the families had no option but to run for their lives and somehow make it to AJK. At times, they crossed into Azad Kashmir even as they sensed danger from Border Security Force (BSF).
> 
> Some refugees had also migrated because they had feared that Pakistan might attack to liberate Kashmir and, unless they moved to a safer location, they would get killed in the crossfire or tortured by the Indian forces.[23] There were some who had migrated thinking that Kashmir would be liberated within a few weeks and they would then return to their homeland. Fifteen years later, they find themselves clueless about when they will be in a position to return.[24]
> 
> The Constitutional and Legal Position of Refugees
> 
> Although refugees who arrived during and after 1947 have formally settled in different parts of Azad Kashmir and Pakistan and are actively involved in the local social and civil life, the question of their constitutional and legal status is not yet settled. In order to understand this issue, it is helpful to consider the relevant parts of UN resolutions on Kashmir and the existing laws in Indian-held Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> UN Resolutions
> 
> The essence of UN Security Council resolutions is the reaffirmation of the Kashmiris right of self-determination. The basic agreement reached for a permanent solution was that the people of Kashmir should decide through a plebiscite whether they wished to join India or Pakistan. Since a significantly large portion of Kashmiri people had to leave their homeland and take refuge in Pakistan, the initial Resolution passed on April 21, 1948 clearly stated that:
> 
> The Government of India should ensure that the Government of the State releases all political prisoners and takes all possible steps so that:
> 
> (a) all citizens of the State who have left it on account of disturbances are invited and are free to return to their homes and to exercise their rights as such citizens;[25]
> 
> The Resolution of January 5, 1949 also spoke about ensuring the return of the refugees. It stated:
> 
> All citizens of the State who have left it on account of the disturbances will be invited and be free to return and to exercise all their rights as such citizens. For the purpose of facilitating repatriation there shall be appointed two Commissions, one composed of nominees of India and the other of nominees of Pakistan[26]
> 
> Responding to the Indian allegations at the UN Security Council in January 1948 that Pakistan was committing interference in Jammu and Kashmir, Pakistans Foreign Minister, Sir Mohammad Zafarullah Khan (18931958), stated Pakistans position and demanded:
> 
> The refugees who had left for Pakistan because of the unbearable atrocities of the Dogra and Indian army should be allowed to return to the State...[27]
> 
> In fact, in both UN Security Council Resolutions, the provisions that gave the refugees the right to return to their homeland and to play a role in deciding its future were based on this demand from Pakistan. These Resolutions establish that all refugees who have left Indian-held Jammu and Kashmir for Azad Kashmir or Pakistan since 1947 are in fact citizens of the Indian-held State and have the right to exercise their option in the UN-sponsored plebiscite.
> 
> *The Right to Return: The State Laws*
> 
> In 1980, the Indian Government pressured the State Government of Jammu and Kashmir to accord state citizenship to the displaced persons from Pakistan.[28] The Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir, Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah (19051982), refused to accept this demand, stating that conferment of State citizenship was the prerogative of the State Government, not Delhi. Despite his stand, great pressure remained on Sheikh Abdullahs administration. In response, Sheikh Abdullah raised a question: If the newcomers were state citizens, what of the State citizens who had migrated during or after 1947 to Pakistan or another country, or who were settled in other part of the State, Azad Jammu and Kashmir? He took the position of according these State subjects the right to return. Against this backdrop, a Re-establishment Bill was presented in the State Assembly on March 8, 1980, and was passed in April 1982, after Farooq Abdullah came to power, as The Jammu and Kashmir Grant of Permit of Re-settlement in the State Act 1982.[29] However, the Indian President at the time, Giani Zail Singh (19161994), referred the Act to the Supreme Court of India for its opinion on whether it was in conflict with the constitution.[30]
> 
> Some 19 years later, on November 6, 2001, the Supreme Court of India returned the Bill without any decision, declaring that in this manner, the Bill that had been passed by the State Assembly had automatically become law. The Court respected the fact that the Bill had become an Act since 1982.[31] But on February 1, 2002, after hearing a writ petition lodged by the Jammu and Kashmir Panther Party, the Supreme Court of India issued an injunction against implementation of the Act until further orders. To all appearances, the issue had once again been consigned to cold storage.[32]
> 
> Notwithstanding these events, even today, the general view among Kashmiri refugees is that they will return to their ancestral homes after the Kashmir issue has been resolved. Under another law passed in Indian-held Jammu and Kashmir  the Evacuees Act of 1949  refugees assets have been taken under protection and are only allotted on lease (although in some cases the duration of lease is 40, 50 or 90 years). The Government does not give complete ownership to anyone so that the assets can be returned to the real owners whenever they return.[33]
> 
> *Status, Organization and Living Arrangements in Azad Kashmir*
> 
> Individuals and families migrating from Indian-held Kashmir have been officially accommodated by the Government of Azad Kashmir at camps in various areas. Once they are registered, the refugees are also provided regular assistance for monthly expenses. There are now 15 such camps, housing 24,574 refugees.[34]
> 
> The initial period of migration, from 1990 to 1994, was one of great discomfort for refugees. During these years, no formal camps existed and the Government housed them at scattered official or rented locations. For accommodation, they were given tents, which did not have enough provisions for privacy or for protection against the weather. In the rainy season, their homes stood on pools of water and the few goods they had were ruined. Diseases spread fast. The personal and marital lives of many families were badly affected.[35]
> 
> In 1994, it was agreed between the Azad Kashmir Department of Rehabilitation and the Government of Pakistan that the tented settlements would be replaced with proper huts. The administration provided iron sheets, cheap timber and land. The rest of the work was done by refugees on a self-help basis, although, on a few occasions, some NGOs also provided assistance in construction. In this manner, each family managed to construct some rooms, temporary or permanent, for itself.[36]
> 
> A number of political organizations participated in the provision of health and educational facilities and construction of mosques at the camps, in particular, the Jamaat-e-Islami, which was directly involved. Individuals affiliated with the organization also demonstrated their interest independently. Schools, mosques and health units were established. At present, not a single family residing in a camp lives in a tent. Moreover, in January 2002, the AJK Government established a special camp for refugees that is equipped with basic facilities and located 15 kilometers outside Muzaffarabad at Busnara. The Rehabilitation Department allotted each family a 1,200-square-feet (30 x 40 feet) plot, and the required construction blocks. Electricity and road facilities already existed here.[37]
> 
> Despite these measures, the area allocated for camps is falling short owing to population growth. In future, more space will be needed even for existing refugee settlements.[38]
> 
> While most of the refugees live in camps, a considerable number now reside in rented accommodation in cities like Muzaffarabad and Rawalpindi. They have not settled in the camps for various reasons, such as marriage with local families, mostly among their own relatives who had migrated to AJK earlier. The number of such families stands at present at approximately 720.[39]
> 
> It is significant to note that the two groups of refugees  camp residents and city residents  have different perspectives on their problems and future. Before discussing their problems, however, let us take a brief look at the administrative setup for the look-after of refugees.
> 
> *The Government of AJK has been striving to resolve the refugees problems since its own inception in 1947. Until 1974, refugees care was the responsibility of the Divisional Commissioner, delegated to him as an additional charge. In 1974, a separate office was set up for the Department. However, the Commissioners additional charge was delegated to a senior official of the Finance Department. Finally, when the current phase of the Freedom Movement began in held Kashmir in 198889 and an influx of refugees was anticipated, a full-time Rehabilitation Commissioner was appointed.[40]*
> 
> *Following an established procedure, the Department of Rehabilitation and Relief registers refugees upon their arrival and later issues them an Refugee Card. On the basis of this card, the Government starts providing them a subsistence allowance, admission in educational institutions and medical aid.[41] The Government of AJK currently gives the Department a monthly budget of Rs. 30 million to be spent on subsistence allowances and other refugee matters*.[42]
> Kashmiri Refugees: Facts, Issues and the Future Ahead



Jana, you tried so hard to write this all crap, even any Indian bother to read your post seriously, all your post is just dumb post and entertain to all of us, you should change your avtar to a Joker

well Jna keep it up- great humor indeed


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## BATMAN

duhastmish said:


> *Only if it was about people ................. its all about resource in kashmir , water fertile land and high mountain peak to safe gaurd your country,*



We are talking about Kashmiris living on Indian side which are forced to leave Kashmir due to extra judicial killings of every day.

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## Vikram Morya

jab mujhadeen ki maut aati hai to vo India ki taraf aata hai

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## A.Muqeet khan

Trac said:


> Btw how much peace in entire Pakistan specially in SWAT and baluch???
> 
> 
> Where your angle Pakistani army rules ????



well i dont know whether ur really oblivious of the facts or u r doing it on purpose want to see how much peace it was (before floods) see our news channels or better come here we will tell you what u need to know


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## Vikram Morya

BATMAN said:


> We are talking about Kashmiris living on Indian side which are forced to leave Kashmir due to extra judicial killings of every day.



take them away, we welcome you

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## Vikram Morya

A.Muqeet khan said:


> well i dont know whether ur really oblivious of the facts or u r doing it on purpose want to see how much peace it was (before floods) see our news channels or better come here we will tell you what u need to know



same story on our side too brother, but we are inviting you. we are sick of pakistan, whether it is good or bad. stay in your country and watch our channels their. We have enough pakistani/ damn freedom fighter waiting for their final visa to God here

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## Patrician

Sometimes I wonder, are people really so stupid in real life?

Everyone here is discussing what Pakistan '*should' do*!

Fine, go ahead. It's your country, it's going to be your decision.

But tell me one thing...

*CAN you do it*?

Please don't make me type all the problems that pakistan and it's economy are facing nowadays.

It is high time that Pakistanis decided...you want to be emotional or practical?

As far as common sense goes, being emotional is not the way to run a country and that too when it is going through a crisis.

Yaar please don't force god to wonder 'Why did I give brain to these people'

Use whatever little you have in your head.

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## Vikram Morya

violence creater should be shot, as to these guys. I support this

Kashmir has taken already Bangladesh out of pakistan map, God know, further what will Kashmir will do to Pakistan.


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## Patrician

Trust me guys, 

Pakistan has a very negative brand image in today's world. Please don't make it worse.

Today, peaople sympathise with you. If you go on the same way, tomorrow they will neglect you and day after tomorrow they'll ridicule you.

Time somebody got up and cleaned the mess!

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Gentle Typhoon said:


> hell yes, India also wants same thing, trouble makers go to Pakistan, let other 95% Indian pro live in peace.


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## kak1978

BATMAN said:


> Why should she not be allowed to have passport for her son?
> Just because he is a Muslim?
> What if he wish to go for Hajj?
> *It is about time that Muslims in India should fight for a separate home land, if state refuse them their basic rights and no religious freedom.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Refuse?? Do you know Indian government provides Haj Subsidy, does govt. of Pakistan provide this?
> 
> "The Haj subsidy is an airfare subsidy given to Indian Muslim Hajj pilgrims. Pilgrims applying through the Haj Committee of India are offered the concessionary fare. The Government of India pays the subsidy to Air India.[1]. Muslim leaders and Muslim community have opposed the Haj subsidy from time to time saying that subsidy actually went in bailing out Air-India, while exposing Muslims to charges of appeasement."
> 
> Sorry to burst your bubble, Muslims in India are more worried about effects of appeasement than religious freedom.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

EjazR said:


> The fact of that matter is, those misguided youth who went over to Paksitan for training are coming back. So there is a reverse flow of "refugees".



no evidence???

















NO CASE!!!





and spell the country's name properly, or i will see to it that you are banned from here.


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## SnIPeR Xr

fateh71 said:


> Did any bleeding hearts read the red part before going on their usual trip? Rubber bullets are a non lethal means of crowd control, its unfortunate he died. Lots of 11 year olds are into stone throwing, their parents shold control these kids instead of posing for mourning photos later. A 11 year old has no business throwing stones at armed forces, if he does, his parents are responsible for the consequences. In this case police have used rubber bullets, so they can't be blamed of high handedness.
> 
> Bitter, but true.
> 
> BTW stone throwers are NOT unarmed.



The parents could'nt stop their child* Because the chid got Fedup with all the mess around him*
*His childhood was ruined by the daily killings of innocent people by the terrorist army of indian state*.


*He was there because whenever he sought permission from his parents for going outside to play,his parents didn't gave him permission because there was a kerfue imposed by the terrorist army of indian state.*

*The child was there because his academic carrier was ruined by the terrorist army of state of india*

*He was there because his school was serving as a"Military post" for the terrorist army of state of india.*

*His parents didn't stop him because they too were fedup of the killings done by Terrorist army of state of india.*

*His parents didn't stop him because maybe this is not the only tradegy they have to face,God knows how many of thier children were killed by these rubber bullets & how many times they had faced this tradegy & how many times they have to face it again & again.*

*And this is not the only case only god knows that how many Parents had faced this tragedy & only god knows that how many times the Parents OF KASHMIR have to face these tragedies in coming times because of the killings made by Terrorist army of state of India. *


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## Crash Override

Good Work!! Indian Army!! shoot them at sight!!!


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## Dark Angel

*Brainwashed people who explode themselves should not be spared but shooting the handlers is more important .... like Israel in this matter*


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## bandit

Leviza said:


> This shows the indian army killing innocent kids ,,,,,,,, i an see kashmir freedom from india as new generation has taken things in thier hand........ This blood of a 11 year old will soon become a light of freedom for kashmir
> 
> world need to open thier eyes and see what indian army is doing in kashmir....
> 
> Long live Kashmir and Kashmir is a part of Pakistan ....Inshallah



No this does not show Indian army killing anyone as it is not the army that fired...it shows _your inability _to comprehend facts even when they are bolded and put in red.

The blood of the 11 year is on his parents hands and the separatists who should have known better than to take him to a potentially riotous situation.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

bandit said:


> The blood of the 11 year is on his parents hands and the separatists who should have known better than to take him to a potentially riotous situation.


No - the blood of the 11 year old is on the hands of every Indian who supports the occupation and subjugation of Kashmir and the denial of the right to self-determination to them, promised them by the Indian State and the International community through the UNSC resolutions.

Had the Kashmiris been allowed to exercise their right to self-determination, there would be be no riots against Indian occupation.

This morally bankrupt argument regurgitated by many Indians is the equivalent of a rapist accusing a woman being raped for being responsible for her injuries because she 'struggled and fought back' against her ****.

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## big_mac

Coltsfan said:


> Selective reading?Can't fire roses at people who are throwing at stones at you......



So here are Indian Army SOPs : Kill the kids with lethal force when they throw stones at you  Very professional response I guess.



Coltsfan said:


> I regret the kid had to die, but his parents should have thought about this once before letting him throw stones at Indian forces.....



Why would an 11 years old endangered his life and throw stones ? Ever wondered ?


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## bandit

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No - the blood of the 11 year old is on the hands of every Indian who supports the occupation and subjugation of Kashmir and the denial of the right to self-determination to them, promised them by the Indian State and the International community through the UNSC resolutions.
> 
> .



I was responding to the factually incorrect parts in his posts...do you want three paras of rhetoric in reply to the one you posted?



> Had the Kashmiris been allowed to exercise their right to self-determination, there would be be no riots against Indian occupation.


In a thread discussing death of an eleven year old should we start discussing why the UN resolutions are dead, why Pakistan never fulfilled the precondition of troop withdrawal, or why Kashmir needs to be geographically the same, as in the time when the UNSC resolution were drafted including reversal of territory gifts by Pakistan to China?


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## big_mac

Trac said:


> *What a fu(ker those so called freedom fighter is
> 
> using small kids and womes as their sheild shame on them*



They are NOT so called freedom fighters. They are ACTUALLY freedom fighters. 

Adult Kashmiri men, women and children are all fighting against the Indian opression forces. No one is using another as shield.

*All Kashmiris are Equally into it. *


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## big_mac

Bojitive neuj said:


> "India security forces starting killing people" with rubber and wax bullets, didnt they??



Did tens of thousands of innocent Kashmiris died with the hits from RUBBER BULLETS ? 

Which fantasy world you live in mate ?

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## S_O_C_O_M

*Indian forces killed 72 Kashmiris in August ​*
Written by KMS 

Wednesday, 01 September 2010 20:13 







Srinagar, September 01, 2010: Indian troops, in their continued acts of state terrorism, martyred 72 innocent Kashmiris including 31 teenagers and 4 women during the last month of August. Out of those martyred, three were killed in custody. The killings rendered three women widowed and nine children orphaned.

The Indian forces disgraced 20 women and tortured 1,505 persons, injuring most of them critically, by using teargas shells and bullets on peaceful demonstrators. In a fresh incident, a Junior Commissioned Officer of Indian army was killed and three others were injured in an attack by mujahideen at Atwatoo in Bandipore district while a Special Police Officer was shot dead at Kursa in Kishtwar. 


The media in Srinagar, reported, today, that the Indian intelligence agencies had approached the former members of an Indian army-sponsored killer group, Ikhwan asking them to restart terrorist actions against Kashmiri youth. The initiative is to counter the spate of ongoing protests. Ikhwan has been responsible for the killing of hundreds of mujahideen in the mid nineties.

APHC leader, Yasmin Raja in a statement in Jammu, expressed concern over the deteriorating health of the illegally detained leader, Shabbir Ahmad Shah. Earlier, she met Shabbir Ahmad Shah and Firdous Ahmad Shah in Kot Bhalwal jail Jammu.

The members of an Indian civil society delegation staged a sit-in at Municipal Park in Srinagar against the human rights violations by Indian troops in the valley. They said that the troops were killing the innocent people for demanding their inalienable right to self-determination. The delegation was led by noted social activist, Swami Agnivesh.

The Executive Director of Kashmir Centre London, Professor Nazir Ahmad Shawl has denounced the attack of Indian forces on journalists in Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir, adding that freedom of expression is deliberately being strangulated.

Professor Nazir Ahmad Shawl in a statement issued in London said that the journalists were prevented from performing their professional responsibilities, which was unjust and condemnable. He also referred to the editor of a news agency, Sheikh Muhammad Imran who was severely tortured by Indian forces without any justification and described it the worst kind of human rights violations by Indian forces in the Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir.

The Executive Director also condemned the occupation authorities for harassing photojournalists who were performing their professional duties at Maisums Chowk in Srinagar. He appealed to all the international journalists unions to raise voice against disregard of the freedom of expression by the Indian government and the authorities in the territory.

Professor Nazir Ahmad Shawl said that the repressive measures couldnt stop the people of Jammu and Kashmir from their just struggle for securing right of self-determination. Kashmiris will continue their struggle till they are given an opportunity to decide their political future through a referendum supervised by the United Nations, he maintained. 

A delegation of Indian civil society, led by social activist, Swami Agnivesh, while expressing concern over the deteriorating situation in Kashmir, has said that Indian forces are killing innocent people in Jammu and Kashmir for demanding their inalienable right of self-determination.

The members of the delegation staged a sit-in at Municipal Park against the human rights violations by the occupation authorities in Jammu & Kashmir.

Social activist, Swami Agnivesh, while talking to newsmen on the occasion said, I regret that Indian politicians are reacting to the Kashmir dispute from their offices in New Delhi. At a time when human rights violations in valley are on rise and 65 innocent people have lost their lives, the Indian government is not reaching out to the victimised Kashmiri society.

Criticising the conduct of Indian forces, he said, We have seen police and CRPF deployment all across the valley and one can understand who the killer is. It is absolute violation of human rights, which in no way is justifiable.


We condemn such acts and feel the pain of every Kashmiri. People have every right to protest but it is unfortunate that they are being killed by the forces and the authorities seem to have lost their control over their police and CRPF, he added.

We will carry a message from here and make every Indian to listen to it. The Prime Minister and Home Minister of India should have addressed the grievances after the killing spree. I appeal the mass leaders to join hands against the atrocities inflicted on innocent Kashmiris, Agnivesh said.

At the sit-in, the delegation members were holding placards inscribed with slogans like Release all political prisoners, repeal draconian laws, initiate independent inquiry into recent killings and stop use of firing on protesters.

Senior Vice President of Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front-R, Javed Ahmad Mir has said that the occupation authorities are using brute force to crush the ongoing liberation movement.

Javed Ahmad Mir, addressing a massive demonstration at Budshah Chowk against the unprovoked firing on youth at Maisuma, said that the authorities couldnt crush the resolve of Kashmiris and the movement will be taken to its logical conclusion despite all odds.

He said that New Delhi had given unbridled powers to armed forces to suppress the sentiments of Kashmiris. This is a sheer barbaric act that bullets are being fired on unarmed people without any provocation, he added.

The JKLF-R leader appealed to the international human rights organisations to take cognisance of the unabated killings in the occupied territory by Indian forces.

The Chairman of All Parties Hurriyet Conference, Mirwaiz (M) Umar Farooq has said that the current uprising in Jammu & Kashmir should be an eye-opener for the Indian government.

Mirwaiz Umar Farooq in a media interview said that people sacrifices had proved it beyond doubt that the uprising was not motivated but a spontaneous expression of peoples anger against India. He warned New Delhi that it should bear in mind that it could no longer hoodwink the people of the occupied territory.


He said that the people of Jammu and Kashmir had rendered matchless and unprecedented sacrifices for Kashmir liberation and it was responsibility of all the leaders and people to take the movement to its logical conclusion.

Rubbishing the autonomy and self-rule proposals, the APHC Chairman also stressed the need for fixing short and long-term goals for the current movement. People of Kashmir have amply evidenced that they dont mind sacrificing even their blood in fighting for their rights, Mirwaiz said.

He said that the ongoing uprising had, besides India, also brought down a lot of pressure on the international community for resolution of the Kashmir dispute. Those people who had wrongly concluded that everything was fine in Kashmir after the elections must have seen that even those people who participated in elections too are now agitating on the roads, Mirwaiz added.

The APHC Chairman said that participation of people in elections or their seeking of jobs had something to do with their day-to-day problems of survival but linking it with the larger questions pertaining to their political future was wrong and India media and intelligentsia must bear it in mind.

Talking about the Quit Kashmir Movement" by the APHC (G) Chairman, Syed Ali Gilani, against massive human rights violations in the occupied territory, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq said that they supported the agitation

Indian forces killed 72 Kashmiris in August


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## foxbat

Mark the Truth article ??

Dont insult this forum... Its way above the nonsense spouted in that idiotic blog

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## Desi Sher

RIP , What else can we wish for???


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## roach

It's what socom does. I think he gets paid for putting up Kashmir propaganda lol

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## Agnostic_Indian

When pakistani army attack cause collataral damage that is ok with them when indian army firing causes collataral damage it's atrocity. Sheer double standards.

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## moha199

su-47 said:


> An 11 year old kid was sent out to protest. Whether the protest started off peaceful (you still havent proved that btw) or not, its still really irresponsible of his parents and the other protestors. This is not washington, this is Kashmir. it takes just a few in the crowd to trow stones to turn the protest violent. and any person in Kashmi should know that. To still send the kid out there shows *their* sick mentality.
> 
> The police used rubber bullets. It has an almost 0% chance of killing. So this death is an unfortunate tragedy not a deliberate attempt. The real murderers of this child are the ones who sent him out knowing things could go out of hand.



IDK where should i start from. i mean you guys are acting like barbaric by supporting this! So you are admiting that kids shouldn't have gone there because Indian army is lethel against Innocent or unarmed people! Buy yourself some freaking thick armored trucks and shoot tear gas! and disrupt the crown! How can you justify these rubber bullets against 80lb skinny guy who is 30 years old it will kill him too then! It's barbaric simple as that.... yes kid shouldn't be there but using anything beside tear gas is wrong! You guys can forget the images of indian policemen killing and beating the hell out of teenagers but we Pakistani and Kashmiris can't forget that so when you talk about handling swiftly doesnt make us feel better because we have seen the horrific face of indian security forces agaist innocent people.... for heaven sakes admit it.... We Pakistani admit it when we have a short coming but you guys are imposible but guess what if you guy are nice then how Kashmir will get her freedom!!! so keep it up INDIA


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## moha199

Trac said:


> *What a fu(ker those so called freedom fighter is
> 
> using small kids and womes as their sheild shame on them*



right you are totally right and i agree with you! They should come alone without women and kids and protest without weapons like they do meaning " protest unharmed" so Indian security agencies can finish them all!!!! dam freedom fighters you guys are so bad


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## Agnostic_Indian

moha199 said:


> right you are totally right and i agree with you! They should come alone without women and kids and protest without weapons like they do meaning " protest unharmed" so Indian security agencies can finish them all!!!! dam freedom fighters you guys are so bad


If they wanted their kids to be part of their Stone pelting game knowing the danger involved then so be it.


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## NWO

Just for the record, even rubber bullet will kill you if fired at close enough range.


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## EjazR

According to local Kashmir papers the count is 65 deaths since June 11. Ofcourse it is a very unfortunate state of affairs.

At the same time that is probably the amoung of people who die in single airstrike by PAF

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## EjazR

Jana said:


> Those wailing women and children crossing over to Azad Kashmir due to Indian terrorism are not terrorists rather helpless people.
> 
> The following is not the entire date rather up to 2005 some figures. its much more than this.
> 
> 
> Kashmiri Refugees: Facts, Issues and the Future Ahead
> 
> 
> Kashmiri Refugees: Facts, Issues and the Future Ahead



Its a pakistani source which as you may know are infamous for propagandising the Kashmir issue. There may be refugees that went over during the early 1990s, but right now they want to come back.

If Pakistan wants to welcome refugees, there are some who really do want to come to Pakistan, there are the migrant Biharis who still call themselves PAkistanis and are in Bangladesh. If GoP is really humanitarian then they should take these Pakistani citizens living as refugees for past 30 years and repatraite them

Infact, civil society in Pakistan and people like you should be forcing GoP/PA to repatriate these half a million Pakistani refugees that are still in Bangladesh.

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## EjazR

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> no evidence???
> 
> NO CASE!!!



There is a militant surrender program going on for years and many former militants have surrendered under govt. amnesty program

This happened last week, a militant with his family surrendered under the amnesty program.

*Militant, wife and 3 children cross Poonch LoC*

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## STD

Leviza said:


> I think its still better then Kashmir and Other indian troubled areas where indians dont have any control now....... I am a baloch, and Proud Pakistani ..... All troubles in Balochistan is indian created and all young baloch are with Pakistan so soon you will learn how baloch take thier revange........



would you like to mention "other troubled areas"?

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## somebozo

EjazR said:


> There is a militant surrender program going on for years and many former militants have surrendered under govt. amnesty program
> 
> This happened last week, a militant with his family surrendered under the amnesty program.
> 
> *Militant, wife and 3 children cross Poonch LoC*



Millitant crossing into India by sea, by land and soon by air too..shameful question to be asked what is the 700K indian army doing if they cant stop such infiltrations??? sitting weaing sari and bangles?? This to me looks much like publicity stunt to prove otherwise evidence less cross border terrorism and infiltration. This alone case is based purely on self intent as he was moving with the family. May be we went to meet some releatives and decided to cash in on some secret offer by RAW. No millitant will cross the border to suddrender to Indian forces this seems like a too much far fetched wet dream. Most of the real millitant move stand alone not with their families.


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## EjazR

somebozo said:


> Millitant crossing into India by sea, by land and soon by air too..shameful question to be asked what is the 700K indian army doing if they cant stop such infiltrations??? sitting weaing sari and bangles?? This to me looks much like publicity stunt to prove otherwise evidence less cross border terrorism and infiltration. This alone case is based purely on self intent as he was moving with the family. May be we went to meet some releatives and decided to cash in on some secret offer by RAW. No millitant will cross the border to suddrender to Indian forces this seems like a too much far fetched wet dream. Most of the real millitant move stand alone not with their families.



Its being reported in local Kashmir papers and if you just google there are hundred of stories and a couple of thousand former militants under the government militant amnesty program that started in post 2000.

Infact before that many militants seeing that Pakistan was not supporting Independance but Taliban type groups like Hizb and LeT instead joined goverenment forces to fight the militants themselves.

Sorry to burst your bubble but this is the reality. It is unfortuante that many Pakistanis never get to know the ground facts and just base their opinions on Propaganda.

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## somebozo

EjazR said:


> Its being reported in local Kashmir papers and if you just google there are hundred of stories and a couple of thousand under the government militant amnesty program that started in post 2000.
> 
> Infact before that many militants seeing that Pakistan was not supporting Independance but Taliban type groups like Hizb and LeT instead joined goverenment forces to fight the militants themselves.
> 
> Sorry to burst your bubble but this is the reality. It is unfortuante that many Pakistanis never get to know the ground facts and just base their opinions on Propaganda.



Pakistan openly supports a pro-independence kashmir..proof..we have no declared pakistani kashmir as its fifth provience..we called it azad kashmir with its own economics, flag and political system. we dont have kashmir regiment or quota in armed forces.


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## EjazR

This debate has people from all over J&K and not just valley muslims. Interesting to note is that even the sepratists in the debate refer to Pakistani Kashmir as occupied.

Mevertheless, interesting points raised by all. Also note that the footballer in the video has a father who was a former militant who surrendered in the amnesty program. 

Kashmir's future: In their own voices

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## EjazR

^^^^Whatabout Gilgit Scouts? What about the fact that whenever the PM wants the PM of AJK is changed? What about the fact that any pro-independance party is not allowed to function or even participate in elections in AJK or Gilgit Baltistan? And most importantly, why did GoP insist on removing the independance option from the UN resolutions?

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## SpArK




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## STD

firstly 64 people have been killed in the ongoing unrest,LOL and what an amazing site...markthetruth,72 alone in August?

Secondly,if you are so kind in nature to care for those killed,you should also condemn the PAKISTANI militants who have killed many in India in the past,just for the sake of humanity!,which lies in your soul.


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## Patrician

Guys thanks for the video but is it of only 4 min length?


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## Speaker

Patrician said:


> Guys thanks for the video but is it of only 4 min length?



That's just a preview. The NDTV website has this entire discussion for about 78 minutes.

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## Hulk

It all started with accidental death by tear gas shell not meant to kill. Some opportunist took that opportunity to further their agenda and created situations where casualties became unavoidable. We clearly did not have the technologies (Non Leathal weapons) to do a better job. The forces in Kashmir are trained to fight terrorist not protesters. This sums up what happened. 
We will surely learn from past and soon find better way to deal with situation. It is getting better than before and will get better. 
Till that time keep hoping that Kashmir might fall in your lap. 
Not happening, easy to criticize others difficult to do.

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## Patrician

Video: Kashmir's future: In their own voices - NDTV Profit


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## NWO

Independent Kashmir... What other option will work? India won't give it up to Pakistan, but can't afford to keep on holding onto it.


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## hellofriends

MR. SOCOM do you have any solution of it........

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## diva

NWO said:


> Independent Kashmir... What other option will work? India won't give it up to Pakistan,* but can't afford to keep on holding onto it.*



we can.... just wait and watch like the past 64 years.

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## NWO

diva said:


> we can.... just wait and watch like the past 64 years.


Yes, but its a constant thorn in your side. Do you really want to deal with that for the next 64 years? 

Remember, a independent Kashmir could lead to a Pak-Indo alliance since the Kashmiri issue is what divides us.


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## Patrician

Man! They are themselves soooooo divided. How are they going to fight for freedom, whatever that may mean.


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## greatsequence

Patrician said:


> Man! They are themselves soooooo divided. How are they going to fight for freedom, whatever that may mean.



They are not divided on Freedom.


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## Patrician

greatsequence said:


> They are not divided on Freedom.



Just see the debate.


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## diva

NWO said:


> Yes, but its a constant thorn in your side. Do you really want to deal with that for the next 64 years?
> 
> Remember, a independent Kashmir could lead to a Pak-Indo alliance since the Kashmiri issue is what divides us.



Pakistan giving up claim on Kashmir can also lead to Indo pak alliance....

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## Jade

I watched it. It was good to see so many young Kashmiris debating their future. They are much level headed and have a better understanding of the reality then most of us credit them to. Except perhaps one lawyer who was asking for self determination, most of them had ideas which were practical and could be starting point for larger debate


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## Trac

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No - the blood of the 11 year old is on the hands of every Indian who supports the occupation and subjugation of Kashmir and the denial of the right to self-determination to them, promised them by the Indian State and the International community through the UNSC resolutions.
> 
> Had the Kashmiris been allowed to exercise their right to self-determination, there would be be no riots against Indian occupation.
> 
> This morally bankrupt argument regurgitated by many Indians is the equivalent of a rapist accusing a woman being raped for being responsible for her injuries because she 'struggled and fought back' against her ****.



*Give me a break ... No one is taking a 11 year old boy in protest i think you are also agree with me 

But those terrorist using women and kids as their shield so that they fire bullets to Indian arm forces and in response when Police fire bullets so those innocent women and kids got killed and terrorist can make profit of their dead just like this issue 

What a low level techtics ... sham on them*

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## NWO

Trac said:


> *What a low level techtics ... sham on them*


The kids, maybe. But the women, well, they're out there on their own free will.

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## Trac

NWO said:


> Yes, but its a constant thorn in your side. Do you really want to deal with that for the next 64 years?
> 
> Remember, a *independent Kashmir* could lead to a Pak-Indo alliance since the Kashmiri issue is what divides us.



Just go free your part and them give advise to other

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## IBRIS

> peaceful demonstrators


Enough said, KMS. Your complains had been acknowledged with rubber bullets and new riot gears have been ordered.


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## Prometheus

NWO said:


> Independent Kashmir... What other option will work? India won't give it up to Pakistan, but can't afford to keep on holding onto it.



*Independent Kashmir.*..............not possible because someone is gifting Parts of Kashmir to china in installments

*What other option will work?*................Kashmir in Indian union

India won't give it up to Pakistan....................I dont think giving to it up to Pakistan is called Independent Kashmir or does it?

*but can't afford to keep on holding onto it*....................yo dude ,India is pretty much happy with the conditions and can go like this for a century..............but can Pakistan afford it????

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## jha

@Prometheus...Long time dude...

You answered pretty well..Thats what i wanted to post.

Does this include the 20 odd terrorists butchered while infiltrating...?

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

NWO said:


> Yes, but its a constant thorn in your side. Do you really want to deal with that for the next 64 years?
> 
> Remember, a independent Kashmir could lead to a *Pak-Indo alliance *since the Kashmiri issue is what divides us.



Not possible,prior to the partition we assumed the same,what happened later we all know.(source: Aasim Sajjad)

Even if Kashmir is solved something new will pop-up.


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## seljuki

Bombensturm said:


> Not possible,prior to the partition we assumed the same,what happened later we all know.(source: Aasim Sajjad)
> 
> Even if Kashmir is solved something new will pop-up.



Actually if kashmir is resolved it would be a HUGE breakthrough in Pak-india relationships. 

for one example, SAARC can be usefully functional once again perhaps even shadowing EU in terms of human capital and free trade. becoz labour and material are cheap in south asia than in europe.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

seljuki said:


> Actually if kashmir is resolved it would be a HUGE breakthrough in Pak-india relationships.
> 
> for one example, SAARC can be usefully functional once again perhaps even shadowing EU in terms of human capital and free trade. becoz labour and material are cheap in south asia than in europe.



We have diverged too much by the events which happened in the last 60 years.Sorry if sound pessimistic.


however,i don't discourage solving the Kashmir issue though.


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## seljuki

if we can utilize SAARC once again, it would create the same benefits of EU for all of SAARC members, perhaps even greater. But we are still in the century of fighting, like Britain and France were before they realized the importance of alliance.

but i digress.


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## lionheart1

this kind of article are against the constitution of india . can anybody tell what kind of legal action can be taken against this kind of website


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## Tshering22

What an article! The Army killed separatists and terrorist supporters as any county would do to protect itself. Were you guys angelic when BLA created problems? The report didn't even come out of Pakistan for international release. 

Dudes, you just emerged from the worst disaster of your history. Why not focus on rebuilding it rather than meddling in our internal affairs? We even increased our aid to $ 20 million.

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## seljuki

lionheart1 said:


> this kind of india are against the constitution of india . can anybody tell what kind of legal action can be taken against this kind of website



must be a really stupid indian. this website is outside the domain of indian constitution.

FYI: not all of the world follows indian constitution and never will. only indians have to toe that line.


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## lionheart1

seljuki said:


> must be a really stupid indian. this website is outside the domain of indian constitution.
> 
> FYI: not all of the world follows indian constitution and never will. only indians have to toe that line.



i want to ban website and some forum which are anti -india in india

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## Moorkh

i have to ask this question

how many people have been reported to have crossed the LoC to settle in pakistan Held Kashmir.

if they are living in pakistan, aint they refugees already? and that the GoP is already accepting them?


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## seljuki

i want to ban website and some forum which are anti -india in india


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## IBRIS

lionheart1 said:


> i want to ban website and some forum which are anti -india in india



Are you kidding me, our constitution allows such theories. It's called secularism and freedom of expression.

We wouldn't have kashmiris pelting stones and protesting. It would of been like how CCP deals with protesters in China with extreme punishment, If they have to arrest the protesters in thousands.

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## lionheart1

you can post million of article talking non-sense about india who cares but undignified words against Hinduism is unacceptable soon i am going to lodge a complaint against forum ,and PIL in our high court


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## S_O_C_O_M

*China calls *** 'northern Pakistan', J&K is 'India-controlled Kashmir'​*
Saibal Dasgupta, TNN, Sep 2, 2010, 08.12pm IST


BEIJING: China on Thursday denied a report that it has deployed 11,000 soldiers in the Gilgit-Baltistan region of ***************** Kashmir. But the Chinese foreign ministry described the disputed area as "northern part of Pakistan". It refrained calling it *** while describing India's Jammu & Kashmir as " India controlled Kashmir". 

"The story that China has deployed its military in northern part of Pakistan is totally groundless and out of ulterior purpose. Some people are fabricating reports to destroy relations between China, Pakistan and India. But their efforts will get nowhere," Jiang Yu, Chinese foreign ministry spokeswoman said on Thursday. She was replying to questions about a New York Times report saying that China has sent 11,000 soldiers to Gilgit-Baltistan region. 

Jiang also made it clear Beijing will stick to its policy about stapled visas for Indians living in Jammu & Kashmir. "About our visa policy toward inhabitants in the Indian Controlled Kashmir region the policy is consistent and stayed unchanged," she said. She did not give a direct reply to a question about reports concerning denial of Chinese visa to India's Gen. B.S.Jaswal. 

"After reading reports we have checked with competent authority. The relevant media report is not true," she said. "As a neighbour and friend of both countries, China believes that the (Kashmir) issue should be left to the two countries so that it could be properly handled through dialogue and consultation," the spokeswoman said. 

China calls Azad Kashmir 'northern Pakistan', J&K is 'India-controlled Kashmir' - China - World - The Times of India


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## lalluyadav

well all weathered dosti

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## IBRIS

Does it really matter what China thinks, our armed forces maps will remain as they been for the past 63 years. 

Makes no difference what China thinks, because they are doing what is done in between friendships.

We didn't care when all the western countries were in Pakistan's bandwagon during cold war era. *"Tou China kiss khet kee mulli hai"*

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## somebozo

And Pakistan claim will remain unchanged and so will the world support


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## lalluyadav

watever they think,it doesnt bother india now.india have made a habit to hear frm china.

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## Spring Onion

IBRIS said:


> Does it really matter what China thinks, our armed forces maps will remain as they been for the past 63 years.
> 
> Makes no difference what China thinks, because they are doing what is done in between friendships.
> 
> We didn't care when all the western countries were in Pakistan's bandwagon during cold war era. *"Tou China kiss khet kee mulli hai"*



 Yeh who cares if Indian invader army has a flawed map and who cares if Indian govt can blackmail Google to show Azad Kashmir as Indian part lolzz.

The reality otherway round.

As far as Northern Pakistan is concerned that is Northern Pakistan and there is NO other word on it. We have 5 provinces


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## diva

Jana said:


> Yeh who cares if Indian invader army has a flawed map and who cares if Indian govt can blackmail Google to show Azad Kashmir as Indian part lolzz.
> 
> The reality otherway round.
> 
> As far as Northern Pakistan is concerned that is Northern Pakistan and there is NO other word on it. We have 5 provinces



But how come Azad kashmir become province of pakistan. It is AZAD isint it......

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## Spring Onion

But i am amused on how Indian media is crying like babies hey hey look China called Occupied Kashmir as Indian administered Kashmir. BUT isnt the case with entire world?


The international community calls it IOK or Indian Administered Kashmir whats the crying for ?

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## Spring Onion

diva said:


> But how come Azad kashmir become province of pakistan. It is AZAD isint it......



Yup thats Azad Kashmir with own president and PM.

And i wasnt talking about Azad Kashmir as 5th Province Pakistan rather i was talking about Northern Pakistan


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## Coltsfan

@Jana,

Thanks for the post, I am sure the news made your day, feeling better now?

However, it seems like you overlooked one little information in the article



> "As a neighbour and friend of both countries, China believes that the *(Kashmir) issue should be left to the two countries so that it could be properly handled through dialogue and consultation," *the spokeswoman said.



It is irrelevant who calls what part of Kashmir by what name.

India is quite content with the status-quo ........  We can keep on talking about the issue it is not going to change any ground reality

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## Peshwa

Jana said:


> But i am amused on how Indian media is crying like babies hey hey look China called Occupied Kashmir as Indian administered Kashmir. BUT isnt the case with entire world?
> 
> 
> The international community calls it IOK or Indian Administered Kashmir whats the crying for ?



Im sure it bothers you that Pakistan needs to ride on a giants back to make its voice heard....not a very nice feeling Im sure...

Besides....as long as the worlds largest Search engines recognize Kashmir as a soverign territory of India....counts for a lot more than what 2 billion chinese (who voice cant be heard anywhere including in china) and a few odd million Pakistanis think....

Keep living the dream in a well.....LOL!

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

^^^ I see google demarcating J&K as disputed, along with Arunachal Pradesh:

pakistan - Google Maps

*And stick to the topic and mind your language everyone*

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## Coltsfan

wow........Agnostic Muslim lays it on this thread..... awesome job!!!

Chalo jee debate has been decided....

Chinese used a different terminology on their map

1) Pakistanis are happy

2) Indians are upset

3) No one else cares

4) Reality didn't change a bit....

Time to close this thread too........

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## Spring Onion

Coltsfan said:


> @Jana,
> 
> Thanks for the post, I am sure the news made your day, feeling better now?
> 
> However, it seems like you overlooked one little information in the article
> 
> 
> 
> It is irrelevant who calls what part of Kashmir by what name.
> 
> India is quite content with the status-quo ........  We can keep on talking about the issue it is not going to change any ground reality



Thank you i am always feeling good.

As far as this statement is concerned. Let me tell you that during press briefings we ask many questions and the officials reply diplomatically so its not a new thing.

Here in this case what is more important is that the Chinese official said that China will stick to staple visas for those from IOK and Chinese Policy is very clear in this regard.

The Indian objection to calling IOK as Indian administered Kashmir is uncalled for keeping in view the term is used the world over.

So the bottom line is that India is trying to make non issues after Indian noise over so-called presence of Chinese Troops in Northern Pakistan.

But anyway thats a good idea mr harrison put forward and i am all for considering it seriously by Pakistan


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## dabong1

diva said:


> But how come Azad kashmir become province of pakistan. It is AZAD isint it......



We have no problem with not being called "azad" kashmir........and we would be proud to become another province of pakistan.
Make azad kashmir a province of pakistan...thats what the kashmiris want and demand.


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## lalluyadav

dabong1 said:


> We have no problem with not being called "azad" kashmir........and we would be proud to become another province of pakistan.
> Make azad kashmir a province of pakistan...thats what the kashmiris want and demand.



so............

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## Patrician

Jana said:


> Yeh *who cares if Indian invader army has a flawed map* and *who cares if Indian govt can blackmail Google to show Azad Kashmir as Indian part* lolzz.
> 
> The reality otherway round.
> 
> As far as Northern Pakistan is concerned that is Northern Pakistan and there is NO other word on it. We have 5 provinces



Apparently, dear lady, your GoP does care!

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## r4rehan

they are not refugees they are pakistan we always ready to give hug to our brothers


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## foxbat

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ^^^ I see google demarcating J&K as disputed, along with Arunachal Pradesh:
> 
> pakistan - Google Maps




Check this out though from google

pakistan - Google Maps

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## ps80

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *China calls *** 'northern Pakistan', J&K is 'India-controlled Kashmir'​*
> Saibal Dasgupta, TNN, Sep 2, 2010, 08.12pm IST
> 
> 
> BEIJING: China on Thursday denied a report that it has deployed 11,000 soldiers in the Gilgit-Baltistan region of ***************** Kashmir. But the Chinese foreign ministry described the disputed area as "northern part of Pakistan". It refrained calling it *** while describing India's Jammu & Kashmir as " India controlled Kashmir".
> 
> "The story that China has deployed its military in northern part of Pakistan is totally groundless and out of ulterior purpose. Some people are fabricating reports to destroy relations between China, Pakistan and India. But their efforts will get nowhere," Jiang Yu, Chinese foreign ministry spokeswoman said on Thursday. She was replying to questions about a New York Times report saying that China has sent 11,000 soldiers to Gilgit-Baltistan region.
> 
> Jiang also made it clear Beijing will stick to its policy about stapled visas for Indians living in Jammu & Kashmir. "About our visa policy toward inhabitants in the Indian Controlled Kashmir region the policy is consistent and stayed unchanged," she said. She did not give a direct reply to a question about reports concerning denial of Chinese visa to India's Gen. B.S.Jaswal.
> 
> "After reading reports we have checked with competent authority. The relevant media report is not true," she said. "As a neighbour and friend of both countries, China believes that the (Kashmir) issue should be left to the two countries so that it could be properly handled through dialogue and consultation," the spokeswoman said.
> 
> China calls *** 'northern Pakistan', J&K is 'India-controlled Kashmir' - China - World - The Times of India



ToI is often termed as Indian Orange Media by many PDF members.

Can you post any official press release by the Chinese?

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

foxbat said:


> Check this out though from google
> 
> pakistan - Google Maps



That is google India .... just keeping ya'll happy in your delusions, while the rest of the world gets to see the truth ...

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Google UK
Google Maps

Google France
pakistan - Google Maps

Google Russia
Pakistan - Êàðòû Google

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## Spring Onion

ps80 said:


> ToI is often termed as Indian Orange Media by many PDF members.
> 
> Can you post any official press release by the Chinese?



 Your media had quoted Chinese official news agency but added the word "***" just for local public consumption a kind of ostrich like attitude


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## Spring Onion

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Google UK
> Google Maps
> 
> Google France
> pakistan - Google Maps
> 
> Google Russia
> Pakistan - Êàðòû Google




 and i hear some sharp sound hehehehe 

jaisay koi larki kisi seeti bajany walay larkay ka mukhray pe naksha banati ha


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## Spring Onion

Patrician said:


> Apparently, dear lady, your GoP does care!



My GOP never shown any childish blackmailing attitude to Google for calling Kashmir disputed area and not part of Pakistan.

 we are very fair. We wish Kashmir for Kashmiris as their country


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## lalluyadav

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Google UK
> Google Maps
> 
> Google France
> pakistan - Google Maps
> 
> Google Russia
> Pakistan - Êàðòû Google



who cares 4 this,this maps can be changed with in minute as done many times.india dont bother abt that,they know wat can happen in minutes

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## ps80

Jana said:


> Your media had quoted Chinese official news agency but added the word "***" just for local public consumption a kind of ostrich like attitude



I am with you when you call ToI or Rediff as typical Orange Media 

No more word-twisting...now can you post any official Chinese press release on this topic?

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## Patrician

Jana said:


> My GOP never shown any childish blackmailing attitude to Google for calling Kashmir disputed area and not part of Pakistan.
> 
> we are very fair. *We wish Kashmir for Kashmiris as their country*



Really? Then why on earth did GoP insist on removing 'independece' as an option for kashmiris in case of a referendum.

I'm sure you ARE aware that according to UN res. there's no such thing as 'independence' in the options. There's India and there's pakistan. 

And it was your GoP which got this independence option excluded! 

Where did this 'wish for free kashmir' go then? 

Let's accept it Jana, nobody is a saint here.

Your GoP/Army acts on cold-hearted interests and so does my GoI/Army

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## lalluyadav

Jana said:


> My GOP never shown any childish blackmailing attitude to Google for calling Kashmir disputed area and not part of Pakistan.
> 
> we are very fair. We wish Kashmir for Kashmiris as their country



we wish for our integrity

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## Patrician

lalluyadav said:


> we wish for our integrity



Exactly, and we will not think twice before killing or dying for that.

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## Patrician

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That is google India .... just keeping ya'll happy in your delusions, while the rest of the world gets to see the truth ...



You keep google + truth...we keep kashmir.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Patrician said:


> Exactly, and we will not think twice before killing or dying for that.



In that case you should have made your intentions clear to the Kashmiris before your leadership promised them the right to self-determination to decide their status as part of India or Pakistan, and then further committed to that position through committing to the UNSC resolutions.

Claiming 'integrity' by denying Kashmiris the right to self-determination, which India herself chose to argue was the primary means of determining accession, through her invasion and annexation of the State of Jungadh over a month after it had acceded to Pakistan, and which your own leadership promised them and committed to, is dishonest to say the least.

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## Coltsfan

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> In that case you should have made your intentions clear to the Kashmiris before your leadership promised them the right to self-determination to decide their status as part of India or Pakistan, and then further committed to that position through committing to the UNSC resolutions.



1971 Shimla accord (which Pakistan agreed to) usurps the UN plebiscite mandate, so there is no point bringing up an obsolete UN resolution.



> Claiming 'integrity' by denying Kashmiris the right to self-determination, which India herself chose to argue was the primary means of determining accession, through her invasion and annexation of the State of Jungadh over a month after it had acceded to Pakistan, and which your own leadership promised them and committed to, is dishonest to say the least.



That is your POV and you are entitled to it. I am sure annexation of Junagarh has been discussed multiple times in this forum before, bringing that in here is only going to confound the discussion.

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## GentlemanObserver

Patrician said:


> You keep google + truth...we keep kashmir.



halwa hain kya? 

I like your posts but here, sorry it's not that simple yes!


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## Patrician

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> In that case you should have made your intentions clear to the Kashmiris before your leadership promised them the right to self-determination to decide their status as part of India or Pakistan, and then further committed to that position through committing to the UNSC resolutions.
> 
> Claiming 'integrity' by denying Kashmiris the right to self-determination, which India herself chose to argue was the primary means of determining accession, through her invasion and annexation of the State of Jungadh over a month after it had acceded to Pakistan, and which your own leadership promised them and committed to, is dishonest to say the least.



and what about your GoP which insisted that 'independence' be excluded as an option in any referendum if it were ever to take place. 

For rest of your post, since this is not the appropriate thread, I suggest you check my posts on the 'future of kashmir' thread on the last few pages.

AM, why do I always have to keep repeating myself.

Why do you guys behave as if you are 'doodh ke dhule' and we are evils.

Truth is, you are as much at fault as we are, if not more.

Accept it buddy, hamam mein sab nange hain. Nobody is a saint here.

Don't be emotional mate. It never helps while solving problems, be them of mathematics or foreign policy.

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## Tshering22

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ^^^ I see google demarcating J&K as disputed, along with Arunachal Pradesh:
> 
> pakistan - Google Maps
> 
> *And stick to the topic and mind your language everyone*


Google is clever I tell you. It simply doesn't comment on the whole issue and when you cry it appeases you for business and when we do the same, it appeases us too.

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## Patrician

Paladin said:


> halwa hain kya?
> 
> I like your posts but here, sorry it's not that simple yes!



Yaar you'll be surprised how simple it became once mushy realised the ground reality. Trust me we were inches away from solving kashmir when Mushy was thrown out.

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## GentlemanObserver

Patrician said:


> Yaar you'll be surprised how simple it became once mushy realised the ground reality. Trust me we were inches away from solving kashmir when Mushy was thrown out.



Mush was thrown out because of more than just Kashmir. Kasmir will never be easy for India and Pakistan.


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## Patrician

Paladin said:


> I know, and you can blame uncle sam and Ghaddari for that one!



I don't believe in blame games mate.

To blame someone one has to be clean oneself. And boy how clean we south asians are!

I'm an optimist.

right not GoI is pretty unsure if talking to current zardari govt. will actually be fruitful or not. Simple hai yaar, kashmir will be solved only when army calls the shots in pakistan. Zardari or gilani neither have the army's sanction nor the public's support for solving something as BIG as kashmir.

GoI is, hence, merely buying time. MMS wants peace yes, but he also knows that talking to the current pusillanimous govt. of Pakistan is futile. MMS wants to talk to the real players, not the puppets.


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## Patrician

I'll post all my posts in future of kashmir thread over here. As it is, I believe my posts have become overshadowed by usual troll kiddies from both india and Pakistan.


*MY POST NO.1* 

India kabhi kashmir nahin chhodega.

Kyun?

1. Hamare north India kee kai lifeline rivers kasmir se nikalti hain. Jinnah said "Kashmir is Pakistan's jugular". Well, kashmir is our jugular too. Water alone is a reason strategic enough to make us kill or die for kashmir.

2. Hamne jis din kashmir chhoda, us din har tom, dick and harry will raise a shout for a seperate state. India was founded on the very principle of 'unity in diversity'. That principle will be negated and then it'll be impossible for GoI to suppress voices of silly dissent.

3. Kahmiris are themselves divided about what they want. Jammu and Ladakh have no grudges whatsoever. It's only a few people in the valley who have a problem.

4. In modern world big and powerful nations do not permit redrawing of boundaries so easily. USSR case was different. They broke up from inside. Not as a result of any foreign aggression.

SO WHAT's THE SOLUTION?

mujhe sirf ek hee realistic solution dikhta hai,

India apna kashmir rakhega (militarily). Pakistan apna kashmir rakhega (militarily). LoC will be made irrelevant permitting people to people contact just like in a single state. In short, kashmir will be united but under firm control of India and Pakistan.

A few modalities of the arrangement (such as seperate flag, constitution, currency etc.) can be worekd out. The three subjects Defence, Foreign Policy and communication will be controlled by India and Pakistan in their respective parts of the state.

It will be a very complex and detailed solution which will require huge concessions from both India and Pakistan.

And trust me guys India and Pakistan were willing to accept this very solution during talks between Mushy and MMS.

In the end,

India: happy because it controls the water, the land validating the 'unity in diversity' principle

Pakistan: happy because it gives them legitimate control of their part of kashmir in an internationally recognised way. Promised better relations with India, access to Indian market and what not. Just think about the economic opportunity it will bring for Pakistan.

Kashmiris: happy because it will give them the seperate identity they are seeking while getting economic benefits from both India and Pakistan.

Trust me friends, isse zyada kisi bhi party (India, Pakistan or Kashmiris) ko kuch nahin mil sakta.

Yahi ek solution bacha hai. Pasand hai toh accept karo. Nahin pasand.....well.....toh 63 saal se toh hum dekh hee rahe hain...........
*
MY POST NO.2*

Jiski laathi uski bhains.

I cannot put it in a simpler way. Currently India is the one in a position of strength very much unlike Pakistan. Obviously, India will dictate terms. If you want your position to be considered, then become powerful, pose a challenge to us and we will see!

As of now, pakistan is in no position whatsoever (either internally or externally) to enforce its will on India. 

*MY POST NO. 3*

who says India wants p0K back? P0K is a bargaining chip. Whenever u raise Indian kashmir, we'll raise Pakistan Occupied Kashmir!

The part of kashmir that is strategically most important is firmly under India's control and isn't going anywhere.
*
MY POST NO. 4*

Let me elaborate my point

first and foremost, I accept, that India has made mistakes when it comes to kashmir. We're all humans, we are not infallible. We made mistakes.

1. We should never have taken it to UNSC
2. We should have given kashmiris full autonomy they were promised at the time of accession to India

Apart from these two we made small mistakes here and here but mostly matters were beyond our control since after 1989, Pakistan involved itself into kashmir by supporting the insurgency etc. (we all know what followed). What GoI did after that was an after effect and not a proactive policy.

We HAD TO deploy army after 1989. There was none earlier

And my dear friend, let's accept it, an army is a very lethal weapon and when employed to control populations or revolts, there are bound to be human rights violations. A case in point being the Pakistan army whose genocide in east pakistan is well documented. (please use google, I could post genuine videos from CBS, NBC etc. but this is not the thread)

So there have been human rights violations. Now after 1989, seperatists also arose and hence became another angle of the problem.

Years went by and things continued like this. Slowly and slowly, people got fed up with all this violence which ruined their lives and what stone pelters you are seeing now are those youth who are disgruntled because all their lives they have seen only violence and bloodshed.

In the meantime, India started becoming economically stronger. This increased our influence in world affairs and now we are heard all over the world.

To cut long story short, there will be two aspects of solution as far as India is concerned.

1. External aspect:- This will be vis a vis Pakistan and for this solution you can refer to my earlier post.

2. Internal aspect:- This will be direct fallout of the external settlement with pakistan. India will grant autonomy (bordering azaadi) and kashmiris will have to be content with the prospects of being associated with a rising star called India.

One very important part which people often don't talk about is the will of the kashmiris is itself very divided.

In short,

Jammu and ladakh don't want to have anything to do with any prospect that alienates them with india. They are integral parts of india in true sense of the word. They will never...never ever agree to leaving India neither for joining pakistan nor for independence.

That leaves us with people in and around kashmir valley. Like I said, they will have to tone down somewhere as will India and Pakistan.

All three, India, Pakistan and Kashmiris of the valley will have to make concessions.

A referendum is not possible for two reasons:

1. It goes directly against our interest.
2. jammu and ladakh wil never...never ever...want to leave India. So a referendum will leave kashmiris divided which they themselves do not want.

"Kisi ko mukammal jahan nahin milta, kisi ko zameen toh kisi ko asmaan nahin milta"

All of us will have to make concessions. That's the only way forward.

Trust me, none of us can go beyond this. So let's move forward. 

*MY POST NO. 5*

The new Pak army establishment has taken a harder line as compared to Musharraf. Now, to be frank, India is simply buying time. Once the realisation that dawned upon Mushy, makes its way to the current PA establishment, the issue will be resolved in days. MMS is very very eager to bury this issue before leaving office. Trust me on this!
*
MY POST NO. 6*

And what about the free will of over a billion Indians?

Let's accept it. No body is a saint here. Neither am I, nor are you.

There's no such thing as free will when it comes to nations protecting their interests. The stand of pakistan "AWWWW...Poor Kahmiris, look Cruel India is killing them, suppressing them." is utter bullshit.

It's a game of chess, a game of cold-hearted interplay of interests and interests only. Here governments are the players and common man is the pawn. Like it always happens everywhere.

Pakistan has no more affinity to kashmiri people than it had towards east pakistanis. That's solely the reason why Pakistan actually insisted that independence be excluded as an option if and when a referendum occurs. DO answer my question, why did pakistan insist that independence not be made an option? Where did this free will go then?

100 baaton kee ek baat. Pakistan wants kashmir for it's own interest. India wants kashmir for its own interest. We have reached a deadlock. Dialogue is the only solution and that too of only one kind is possible. For that, you may refer to my earlier posts.

Problems are not solved by being emotional my friend. An emotional doctor only kills the patient!


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## GentlemanObserver

Patrician said:


> I don't believe in blame games mate.
> 
> To blame someone one has to be clean oneself. And boy how clean we south asians are!
> 
> I'm an optimist.
> 
> right not GoI is pretty unsure if talking to current zardari govt. will actually be fruitful or not. Simple hai yaar, kashmir will be solved only when army calls the shots in pakistan. Zardari or gilani neither have the army's sanction nor the public's support for solving something as BIG as kashmir.
> 
> GoI is, hence, merely buying time. MMS wants peace yes, but he also knows that talking to the current pusillanimous govt. of Pakistan is futile. MMS wants to talk to the real players, not the puppets.





> I'm an optimist.



I was too until a year ago.. nothing will change...


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## Skeptic

*Losing the Idea of India*

Sometimes alienation can be addressed the usual way. Sometimes not. In this rather special case, maybe it&#8217;s time to begin all over again: by listening 







A thought provoking article. I can not but agree to the bolded part and hope a constructive discussion happens over it.



> At the height of terrorism in Punjab, KPS Gill is said to have remarked that it was a battle between Jutt Sikhs. As a Jutt Sikh&#8212;those who sneer at such categorisation live in an India that exists only in their imagination&#8212;I can only add that Punjab is still part of the Indian State because there were an overwhelming number of Jutt Sikhs who felt that the Idea of India was worth defending.
> 
> For this very reason, the years of terror in Punjab left me with disdain for the movement&#8217;s fellow travellers in Delhi. Many of them used the rhetoric of &#8216;Rights&#8217; in defence of AK-47 wielding murderers. This language in the guise of liberalism managed to hide the truth about fundamentalism even as Punjab moved on with a full realisation of the disaster that had been averted. But today, in the context of Kashmir, I cannot but agree with the same people who I believe were so wrong about Punjab.
> 
> The difference between the two situations goes back to the question of why so many Jutt Sikhs had and continue to have a stake in the Idea of India. For many of them, the attachment to the idea was pragmatic, it offered material prosperity, but for others such as me it was the attraction of an inclusive idea of India, however imperfectly realised, over any refuge of the faithful where those not of the faith would be second class citizens.
> 
> The different histories of Punjab and Kashmir have ensured that very few Kashmiri Muslims feel so. It can be argued whether the fault lies with the Indian State or Kashmiri Muslims, but surely no community can arrive at a feeling of belongingness on its own.
> 
> This is why we have jawans of the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) recruited from Bihar and UP facing Kashmiri youth on the streets of Srinagar. India could not be the villain in Punjab if Jutt Sikhs were fighting Jutt Sikhs. In Kashmir today, it is, and justifiably so. *If day after day Indian troops are allowed to go on killing adolescents armed only with stones (you can find no parallels in Punjab), I for one am burdened with the feeling that very soon there may be little left to defend in the Idea of India.*
> It is far too easy to blame this on Omar Abdullah&#8217;s failings. About one year earlier, after the **** and murder of two women in Shopian, the Chief Minister of Jammu & Kashmir (J&K) responded to the anger of Kashmiri crowds much as he now has&#8212;by withdrawing from the public and letting the police and CRPF assert control. Basharat Peer, a close observer of the state and author of the critically acclaimed Curfewed Night, was scathing then and what he said is no less valid right now: &#8220;The Kashmir he [Omar Abdullah] lived and lives in is a secured, isolated castle. In his Kashmir, you don&#8217;t stop at a check post; you don&#8217;t raise your hands and show your identity card; you don&#8217;t squat in an empty ground in a crackdown with the rest of your town; you don&#8217;t feel the anger and fear when your classmates go missing and never return.&#8221; A year has passed since, and J&K&#8217;s young CM still remains isolated from popular sentiment in the Valley.
> 
> But Kashmir was a problem long before Omar Abdullah ever fought an election. Between Atal Behari Vajpayee and Manmohan Singh, we have witnessed nine Prime Ministerial visits to Kashmir over this decade and the announcement of two ill-thought-out economic packages totalling Rs 36,700 crore. This has made no difference. Committing more troops to the Valley has proved pointless, as has throwing more money at the problem. Bereft of ideas, it is no wonder that at this critical juncture India&#8217;s Prime Minister is virtually in hiding.
> 
> He is not the only one living in denial. A colleague in office, as we argued over Kashmir, rather impassionedly claimed that the young men out on the streets did not know what they want. I think what is far more pertinent is that they clearly do know what they don&#8217;t want. And maybe we should pay attention to that.
> 
> *I hold no brief for those young men&#8212;I don&#8217;t agree with them in the least. If their idea is of a homogeneous Kashmir made up only of Kashmiri Muslims, it arouses little sympathy in my mind. Neither have they faced up to the complicity of their own in the violence that was directed against Kashmiri Pandits and led to their mass exodus from the Valley. But when we raise these questions, we hold them to far higher standards than we have imposed on ourselves.*
> 
> They don&#8217;t want the Army. For anyone who has travelled to any region of this country where the Army&#8217;s writ runs, this is not very surprising. This has nothing to do with questioning the patriotism of those who serve in the Indian Army, it is the very nature of the institution.
> 
> We have over the years become inured to horror stories in Kashmir, and by failing to react we readily concede the point the angry young men are making. They are different. They have been made so by their experiences. We can&#8217;t even begin to understand what they have undergone.
> 
> They don&#8217;t want to be ignored by the political process. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh hopes to pen an agreement with Pakistan or the Hurriyat Conference and achieve a solution. It may already be too late for that. There is no one in Pakistan who exercises a hold over these young men, and the Hurriyat itself is not leading but is being led by them. If the election of Omar Abdullah to power held out only a brief hope, it was only because what the young men expected of him was not within his power to deliver, and that became obvious rather soon.
> 
> There are the usual arguments to rebut these claims. In sum, they amount to nothing more than the Sangh Parivar&#8217;s territorial argument for Akhand Bharat, as if our attachment is only to the mountains and valleys of Kashmir and not the people residing there.
> 
> *This, then, is the reality of Kashmir. Like those young men out on the streets of Srinagar in their tens of thousands, I am not sure what I want. I do not think an independent Kashmir is a feasible or realisable idea, but short of that, India should be willing to go to any extent possible. But like those young men, I do know what I don&#8217;t want. When CRPF jawans acting in &#8216;self defence&#8217; end up killing a nine-year-old boy on the street, I don&#8217;t want it said that they are doing it in my name. I don&#8217;t want it said that they are doing it to safeguard an Idea of India. An inclusiveness enforced by outsiders at gunpoint is not much of an idea.*

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## GentlemanObserver

> This, then, is the reality of Kashmir. Like those young men out on the streets of Srinagar in their tens of thousands, I am not sure what I want. I do not think an independent Kashmir is a feasible or realisable idea, but short of that, India should be willing to go to any extent possible. But like those young men, I do know what I don&#8217;t want. When CRPF jawans acting in &#8216;self defence&#8217; end up killing a nine-year-old boy on the street, I don&#8217;t want it said that they are doing it in my name. I don&#8217;t want it said that they are doing it to safeguard an Idea of India. An inclusiveness enforced by outsiders at gunpoint is not much of an idea.



Beautifully poignant


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## Speaker

> An inclusiveness enforced by outsiders at gunpoint is not much of an idea.



Would have been valid if universally true. But there are many Kashmiris (including Muslims) who feel they are a part of India. In a diverse country where regions have rich history and culture, the Kashmiri identity is overrated. The CRPF and Army excesses have to be addressed, but not at the cost of unchecked mob violence where anyone who dares to raise a voice against the separatists gets attacked or killed.

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## Skeptic

Speaker said:


> Would have been valid if universally true. But there are many Kashmiris (including Muslims) who feel they are a part of India. In a diverse country where regions have rich history and culture, the Kashmiri identity is overrated. The CRPF and Army excesses have to be addressed, but not at the cost of unchecked mob violence where anyone who dares to raise a voice against the separatists gets attacked or killed.



Therein lies the crux of the matter. Outsiders here not just refers to Indian nationals but for people who have not lived the same life as them. For my understanding it is not used in a strict goegraphic sense but in context of sharing the same background. That is why the detailed mention of Punjab affair becomes important.


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## peacekeeper

Speaker said:


> In a diverse country where regions have rich history and culture, the Kashmiri identity is overrated.








> But when we raise these questions, we hold them to far higher standards than we have imposed on ourselves.



This is the crux of the problem. 
We should reterospect and alleviate their grievance 
It is not just matter of economic package but things which directly afects thems

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## Skeptic

peacekeeper said:


> This is the crux of the problem.
> We should reterospect and alleviate their grievance
> It is not just matter of economic package but things which directly afects thems



It is. For me atleast just because we can maintain the status quo is an insufficient reason to continue doing so. This voilence has to stop not just for the sake of any singular or multiple identities but for the sake of humanity. 

First step as mentioned is Listeing and second understanding. Not much sense can be made when the face explaining the situation is red with anger and froth spitting out. If we can not make sense of what they do want better start working of what they defenitely do not want. I am not sure how many of us would be overtly pleased while living under curfew for weeks at streach. For holding out ID cards at demand while kneeling down in an open field.

Trust has to begin somewhere and then only it can be expected to be reciprocated. The bigger question of how to begin this cycle is currently beyond me but people wiser and in authoratitive positions have to come up with the answer if we aspire to continue to hold dear this idea of inclusiveness.


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## somebozo

The idea of India while remarkable will fail due to its inherent nature of dual identity. One regional and one national. Eventually people will be forced to choose sides when higher developed states called the lower ones liability and the lowers ones retaliate with accusations of encroachment.


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## Peshwa

Jana said:


> Yeh who cares if Indian invader army has a flawed map and who cares if Indian govt can blackmail Google to show Azad Kashmir as Indian part lolzz.
> 
> The reality otherway round.
> 
> As far as Northern Pakistan is concerned that is Northern Pakistan and there is *NO other word on it.* We have 5 provinces



As AM pointed out....Google says Northern Area is as disputed as Indian Administered Kashmir....

pakistan - Google Maps

Dont pop the champagne bottle just yet....

Its a good middle ground to appease both sides.....

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## anurag_singh

somebozo said:


> The idea of India while remarkable will fail due to its inherent nature of dual identity. One regional and one national. Eventually people will be forced to choose sides when higher developed states called the lower ones liability and the lowers ones retaliate with accusations of encroachment.



Two nation theory failed(remember Bangladesh) but still discussing ideology of other's country. on your comment my reply :-
.

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## Skeptic

somebozo said:


> The idea of India while remarkable will fail due to its inherent nature of dual identity. One regional and one national. Eventually people will be forced to choose sides when higher developed states called the lower ones liability and the lowers ones retaliate with accusations of encroachment.



The case is not for multiple identities but for inclusiveness of various regional and religious identities into a singular one. Disparity of financial and natural resources has been and will stay a reality - but the idea of India will emerge supreme - We saw the regional card being played in the Maharashtra state election - which was unanimously defeated by the local populaton.



anurag_singh said:


> Two nation theory failed(remember Bangladesh) but still discussing ideology of other's country. on your comment my reply :-
> .


Anurag, we can do better than replying with smilies and bringing up unrelated issues.

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## somebozo

anurag_singh said:


> Two nation theory failed(remember Bangladesh) but still discussing ideology of other's country. on your comment my reply :-
> .



Pakistan estimated the split of Bangladesh by 1975 due to rapidly changing political climate. Secondly Bangladesh could never integrate in Pakistan due to geographical differences. West Pakistan is at cross roads of Asia and middle east hence great trade routes for economic opportunities. East Pakistan only had neighboring India which meant they had to suffer due to West Pakistan standoff with India. It was only opportunist India which tried turn a tide in its favor hoping by stirring pro-indian terrorist forces to secure territory in east-pak to ease its "chicken neck" demographics for defending against China. Big fail of Indian planning that as they could not annex anything in east-Pakistan.

Secondly Pakistan war planners considered east-Pakistan a satellite state and the doctrine called for defense of west for the defense of east. So it was a cowardly act to begin it. No respectable nation would brag a feat like that.

As much as the two nation theory failed, the Bangladeshis still feel themselves closer to Pakistan than India sparing the temporary AL bozo. This is called connection of Muslim brotherhood.


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## Skeptic

somebozo said:


> Pakistan estimated the split of Bangladesh by 1975 due to rapidly changing political climate. Secondly Bangladesh could never integrate in Pakistan due to geographical differences. West Pakistan is at cross roads of Asia and middle east hence great trade routes for economic opportunities. East Pakistan only had neighboring India which meant they had to suffer due to West Pakistan standoff with India. It was only opportunist India which tried turn a tide in its favor hoping by stirring pro-indian terrorist forces to secure territory in east-pak to ease its "chicken neck" demographics for defending against China. Big fail of Indian planning that as they could not annex anything in east-Pakistan.
> 
> Secondly Pakistan war planners considered east-Pakistan a satellite state and the doctrine called for defense of west for the defense of east. So it was a cowardly act to begin it. No respectable nation would brag a feat like that.



Again irrelevant and has been discussed in several other threads.

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## anurag_singh

Skeptic said:


> The case is not for multiple identities but for inclusiveness of various regional and religious identities into a singular one. Disparity of financial and natural resources has been and will stay a reality - but the idea of India will emerge supreme - We saw the regional card being played in the Maharashtra state election - which was unanimously defeated by the local populaton.
> 
> There is a need of uniform development in all parts of India that will make people of all regions equal stakeholder in India's progress. With this approach we can remove discontent of neglected people.
> 
> @sombozo again lol for your paranoia and muslim brotherhood card. You know the reality.

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## Skeptic

anurag_singh said:


> There is a need of uniform development in all parts of India that will make people of all regions equal stakeholder in India's progress. With this approach we can remove discontent of neglected people.


This is a conceptually ideal situation but practically almost impossible or rather improbable. All parts of India can not have same scale and levels of development. Even in developed countried this discrepancy does exist. 

Some areas have ports and access to sea and some are land-locked, some areas have better natural resources and some have developed financial infrastructre. What we can aspire for a minimal level of development across region and beyond that these factors can come into play.

Moreover - The issue risen here is not just for development and infrastructure but something much more basic than that - A sense of belonging.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Coltsfan said:


> 1971 Shimla accord (which Pakistan agreed to) usurps the UN plebiscite mandate, so there is no point bringing up an obsolete UN resolution.


 This is an often regurgitate argument that has just as often been debunked. Read the Shimla accord:

_(i) That the principles and purposes of the Charter of the United Nations shall govern the relations between the two countries.

(ii) That the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations or by any other peaceful means mutually agreed upon between them. Pending the final settlement of any of the problems between the two countries, neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation and both shall prevent the organisation, assistance or encouragement of any acts detrimental to the maintenance of peace and harmonious relations._

See the first highlighted point and then read the second highlighted point in the context of India's acceptance and commitment to the UNSC resolutions. No where does Simla rule out the UNSC resolutions or the resolution of disputes through the mediation of third parties. Were that the case, then India would not still be abiding by the IWT and recognizing the WB's arbitration in water disputes with Pakistan.


> That is your POV and you are entitled to it. I am sure annexation of Junagarh has been discussed multiple times in this forum before, bringing that in here is only going to confound the discussion.


It is not a POV, those are facts and historical events that played out. Junagadh is very relevant since it was a Princely State that acceded to Pakistan before J&K acceded to India, and was invaded and occupied by India before the Tribes marched into Kashmir, and India justified the annexation of the State by unilaterally holding a plebiscite in Junagadh and claiming legitimacy.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Tshering22 said:


> Google is clever I tell you. It simply doesn't comment on the whole issue and when you cry it appeases you for business and when we do the same, it appeases us too.



Google is merely following the internationally and UN accepted status of J&K as disputed, everywhere accept in India.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Patrician said:


> and what about your GoP which insisted that 'independence' be excluded as an option in any referendum if it were ever to take place.


 What does that have to do with my post or your claims of 'integrity of India' which I refuted? Try addressing the arguments made first.



> For rest of your post, since this is not the appropriate thread, I suggest you check my posts on the 'future of kashmir' thread on the last few pages.


I'll check them out, but my point made here stands.


> AM, why do I always have to keep repeating myself.
> 
> Why do you guys behave as if you are 'doodh ke dhule' and we are evils.
> 
> Truth is, you are as much at fault as we are, if not more.
> 
> Accept it buddy, hamam mein sab nange hain. Nobody is a saint here.
> 
> Don't be emotional mate. It never helps while solving problems, be them of mathematics or foreign policy.


I'm sorry, but India refused every single proposal for demilitarization and plebiscite put forward by the various UN appointed commissions - the intransigence was obviously on your side, and it is your side that withdrew from the commitment made to the Kashmiri people, international community and to Pakistan, that the dispute would be resolved through plebiscite.

These arguments, including the one that so clearly illustrates Indian hypocrisy and double standards between Muslims and Hindus, in occupying Hindu Junagadh and annexing it through plebiscite while denying the same to Muslims in J&K, are factual arguments, not emotions. 

The emotional arguments here are the tripe about 'shedding blood, and not thinking twice about killing and dying over Indian integrity', when that integrity is based on hypocrisy, double standards, deceit and broken commitments to the Kashmiris and the international community.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> An inclusiveness enforced by outsiders at gunpoint is not much of an idea.



Absolutely - the Kashmiris were promised they would have the choice to determine whether or not they wanted to enter into a compact of nationhood with India or not (as India did with the people of Junagadh, despite the ruler of the State acceding to Pakistan), and India violated that commitment to the Kashmiris and the international community.

Nations are not, as the author argues, built by superfluous claims constructed on the edifice of some religio-cultural myth of a motherland encompassing specific geographical points, but by the people inhabiting those lands determining of their own volition that they wish to be a part of a nation. 

India, in denying the Kashmirs their promised right of self-determination, continues to deny them the right to decide on Indian nationhood, and instead force them to accept it.


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## bandit

> An inclusiveness enforced by outsiders at gunpoint is not much of an idea.




Forced on both sides of the borders not just one. The recent poll had indicated that the dominant demand is Independence (~45%) on _both _sides of the border not just Indian Kashmir, which both nations have refused to give by their agreement in the UNSC, the guilt is on both sides, not just India.


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## Speaker

somebozo said:


> The idea of India while remarkable will fail due to its inherent nature of dual identity. One regional and one national. Eventually people will be forced to choose sides when higher developed states called the lower ones liability and the lowers ones retaliate with accusations of encroachment.



The concept of regional 'identity' is the indulgence of the privileged. Most in that class have been sold on the idea of 'Unity in Diversity' and the rising nationalism in India. Politicians use it for regional vote banks, but are rarely successful in convincing the majority. India was also sensible in not imposing Hindi as a national language, to make everyone feel equal in this nation. Besides, all state governments try to reaffirm the concept - "First you are an Indian, then you are a _whatever_"

Dual identities can exist even beyond regional considerations. There is the religious/sectarian identity which can turn ugly pretty fast. Then there is the idea of ethnic identity. All these are prevalent in almost all the countries.

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## toppys

Paladin said:


> Beautifully poignant



He can write that sitting in his ac office because that bsf guy is the one who face the shots. You should give him a gun and put in the middle of bullets to see how he distinguish a boy in the crowd coming to kill you then.


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## toppys

Please take them. You can add them to afghan refugees and flood victims.

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## moha199

Trac said:


> *Give me a break ... No one is taking a 11 year old boy in protest i think you are also agree with me
> 
> But those terrorist using women and kids as their shield so that they fire bullets to Indian arm forces and in response when Police fire bullets so those innocent women and kids got killed and terrorist can make profit of their dead just like this issue
> 
> What a low level techtics ... sham on them*



Now you give me a break for calling protesters terrorist... wtf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So for you the entire Kashmiri male population is terrorist nowi have made my point to my NONE Indian members ..... Now I totally support Free Kashmire from Indian ruthless control....


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## lalluyadav

moha199 said:


> Now you give me a break for calling protesters terrorist... wtf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So for you the entire Kashmiri male population is terrorist nowi have made my point to my NONE Indian members ..... Now I totally support Free Kashmire from Indian ruthless control....



wats wrong with his statement.who says to take kids with them n use them as shield.if they get killed then they start to protest .it has been advised by govt several times.do 11 yr old kid know abt anything ?


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## moha199

lalluyadav said:


> wats wrong with his statement.who says to take kids with them n use them as shield.if they get killed then they start to protest .it has been advised by govt several times.do 11 yr old kid know abt anything ?



bro calling protesters terrorist! i do have problem with that any human will!


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## brahmastra

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Absolutely - the Kashmiris were promised they would have the choice to determine whether or not they wanted to enter into a compact of nationhood with India or not (*as India did with the people of Junagadh, despite the ruler of the State acceding to Pakistan*), and India violated that commitment to the Kashmiris and the international community.
> 
> Nations are not, as the author argues, built by superfluous claims constructed on the edifice of some religio-cultural myth of a motherland encompassing specific geographical points, but by the people inhabiting those lands determining of their own volition that they wish to be a part of a nation.
> 
> India, in denying the Kashmirs their promised right of self-determination, continues to deny them the right to decide on Indian nationhood, and instead force them to accept it.



you attacked Kashmir first, then we went for Junagarh.so,basically you gave us idea 'to attack princely states if they are not with you'.


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## somebozo

You just gotta give them some time..the idealogy of motherland failed miserably with the soviets when their booming economic progress had some brakes slammed on to it. Economy is the backbone of all political and social movements and once their explosive growth phase reaches a dead end..we might be in for real surprise..remember the Pakistan peace and tranquality of 60-70s exploded into jehadi fundamentalism once the economic growth ran into hard wall.



> you attacked Kashmir first, then we went for Junagarh.so,basically you gave us idea 'to attack princely states if they are not with you'.



Another distortion by your akhand bharti historians?? Are bhartis angels that they cant commit a sin and everthing has to have an escape goat?? Remember the british moron who commanded Pakistani army refused to obey Mr Jinnah upon news of Indian invasion of Kashmir hence we had to prop up some quick resistance by tribal fighters.

The soviets once thought of them as invincible nation of equality but that daydream came to a shameful halt. Indian politics are much remiscent of soviet idealogy.


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## Agnostic_Indian

moha199 said:


> bro calling protesters terrorist! i do have problem with that any human will!


ok.
lets call them seperateists..


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## moha199

bhagathsingh said:


> ok.
> lets call them seperateists..



fair enough!


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## riju78

Some watering down of legal protection to the armed forces. A partial pullout of security forces. Some conciliatory language. Release of some stone-throwers and militants who have served their term. Some economic package.
With relative calm in Kashmir and separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani subtly climbing down from his rigid position of more than 50 years, these are some concessions Delhi could announce, perhaps as early as this week, discarding its own long-held, do-nothing policy.
If we harbour any hopes of saving the situation in Kashmir, the window of opportunity is small; the time to do something is now, a highly-placed source acquainted with internal government discussions told Hindustan Times. Geelani has made some moderate noises, and this may be best chance to move forward with him.
Geelani (81), now the pre-eminent political figure on the Kashmir street, denied back-channel discussions with Delhi but reiterated to HT: I want to make it clear we do not oppose talks and Prime Minister Man-mohan Singh must officially call for talks. But Geelani did meet unofficial, or track II, emissaries in August, where he first outlined his subtle new stand.
Even he (Geelani) believes with some minuses and pluses something can be achieved, said an expert involved in the dialogue with Geelani.
On Wednesday, after meeting Home Minister P. Chidambaram  who is heading quiet discussions on Kashmir  Chief Minister Omar Abdullah emphasised the need for political concessions to calm the anger on the streets.
These moves gained momentum after Geelani on Tuesday appeared more moderate than he has ever been since he was first arrested in 1962, not demanding an acceptance of self-determination as a precondition to talks or insist on Pakistans involvement.
On Thursday, conscious of the fine balancing act he is playing, Geelani appeared to harden a bit when he said: Once talks starts, it (sic) has to be trilateral, including New Delhi, Islamabad and real representatives of the sentiments of Kashmir.
Geelani is under pressure in the Valley to encourage a return to normalcy, with even the hardline Jamat-e-Islami appealing to him that education should not suffer.
Yet, on the streets, the young people who have mobilised via Facebook and word of mouth insist the protests cannot stop after the death of 65 people, mostly teenagers and men in their 20s. Their continuing rage is visible all over the Internet.
Once on the fringes of the separatist movement, Geelani has emerged as the face of the so-called Kashmir intifada since it began two-and-a-half months ago with the death of 17-year-old Tufail Matoo, a cycle of violence that rattled Delhi.
This is one of the worst bouts of alienation weve seen, but this could be our best chance of a shot at actually working on a settlement, instead of stalling as we often have, said the government source.
Analysts said Geelani is trying to offer a face saver to everyone, the separatists and the government.
Geelani saab is single-handedly managing the agitation; most of his associates are behind bars, the moderates are silent, even the mainstream political parties seem to be following what he is saying, said Gul Wani, a political scientist with the University of Kashmir. He knows what Kashmir and Kashmiri people are going through. Many delegations are meeting him, he has also met members of civil society and understands the difficulties of people as well.
Like many others, Wani believes confidence-building measures are achievable. He said those could include demilitarisation and an assurance that no killings will take place.
Even the government agrees that militancy has been rolled back. So what is the need of the military in civilian areas? said Wani. If some sort of demilitarisation happens it can restore that sense of freedom among the masses.
(with Toufiq Rashid)

Hectic moves on for J&K breakthrough - Hindustan Times


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## bandit

somebozo said:


> Another distortion by your akhand bharti historians?? Are bhartis angels that they cant commit a sin and everthing has to have an escape goat?? Remember the british moron who commanded Pakistani army refused to obey Mr Jinnah upon news of Indian invasion of Kashmir hence we had to prop up some quick resistance by tribal fighters.
> 
> The soviets once thought of them as invincible nation of equality but that daydream came to a shameful halt. Indian politics are much remiscent of soviet idealogy.



Akhand Bharti historians seem to be doing pretty well. They have even taken over Her Majesty's BBC since it says the same



> _The first Indo-Pakistani war started after armed tribesmen from Pakistan's north-west frontier province invaded Kashmir in October 1947._ Besieged both by a revolt in his state and by the invasion, the Maharaja requested armed assistance from the government of India. In return he acceded to India, handing over powers of defence, communication and foreign affairs.


BBC NEWS | India Pakistan | Timeline



> Remember the british moron who commanded Pakistani army refused to obey Mr Jinnah upon news of Indian invasion of Kashmir hence we had to prop up some quick resistance by tribal fighters.




The British moron was FM Auchinleck, Supreme Commander of both Indian and Pakistani forces who refused Jinnah's apparently illegitimate bid to start a war over Kashmir.


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## Jade

*Denies troop presence in PaK*

Beijing, Sept 2: China today said it had no intention to interfere in the Kashmir issue as it dismissed reports of presence of up to 11,000 PLA troops in Gilgit in Pakistan administered Kashmir (PaK).


"As a neighbour and friend of both countries, China believes that the (Kashmir) issue should be left to the two countries so that it could be properly handled through dialogue and consultation," Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Jiang Yu told a media briefing.Clarifying on the Kashmir issue, the spokesperson said, "About Kashmir issue our position is that we believe it is an issue left over from history between India and Pakistan".

She rejected reports that up to 11,000 soldiers of the Peoples Liberation Army were in Gilgit in Northern Pakistan, saying: "The story that China has deployed its military in northern part of Pakistan is totally groundless and out of ulterior purpose".

Her comments came in response to a New York Times opinion piece last week which said that 11,000 PLA men had been deployed in Gilgit-Baltistan area to build up its rail and road access to the warm waters of the Persian Gulf.

The report said that the troops had been deployed to safeguard the project as well as use them for working on the railway link across the Karakorams.

"Some people are fabricating reports to destroy relations between China, Pakistan and India. But their efforts will get nowhere," Jiang said.

Asked whether China would review the policy to issue stapled visas to people of Jammu and Kashmir, she said "about our visa policy toward inhabitants in the Indian controlled Kashmir region the policy is consistent and stays unchanged".


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## WAQAS119

Link please???? Do not post anything without link!


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## Patrician

jade1982 said:


> *Denies troop presence in PaK*
> 
> Beijing, Sept 2: China today said it had no intention to interfere in the Kashmir issue as it dismissed reports of presence of up to 11,000 PLA troops in Gilgit in Pakistan administered Kashmir (PaK).
> 
> 
> "As a neighbour and friend of both countries, China believes that the (Kashmir) issue should be left to the two countries so that it could be properly handled through dialogue and consultation," Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Jiang Yu told a media briefing.Clarifying on the Kashmir issue, the spokesperson said, "About Kashmir issue our position is that we believe it is an issue left over from history between India and Pakistan".
> 
> She rejected reports that up to 11,000 soldiers of the Peoples Liberation Army were in Gilgit in Northern Pakistan, saying: "The story that China has deployed its military in northern part of Pakistan is totally groundless and out of ulterior purpose".
> 
> Her comments came in response to a New York Times opinion piece last week which said that 11,000 PLA men had been deployed in Gilgit-Baltistan area to build up its rail and road access to the warm waters of the Persian Gulf.
> 
> The report said that the troops had been deployed to safeguard the project as well as use them for working on the railway link across the Karakorams.
> 
> "Some people are fabricating reports to destroy relations between China, Pakistan and India. But their efforts will get nowhere," Jiang said.
> 
> Asked whether China would review the policy to issue stapled visas to people of Jammu and Kashmir, she said "about our visa policy toward inhabitants in the Indian controlled Kashmir region the policy is consistent and stays unchanged".



As if India will let them!


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## bandit

WAQAS119 said:


> Link please???? Do not post anything without link!



Its all over google !!!

China rules out troops presence, J&K interference


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## Brotherhood

WAQAS119 said:


> Link please???? Do not post anything without link!



This is the official response from China. I had no idea where all the add-on came from.

China on Wednesday rejected reports of the presence of over 11,000 Chinese troops in northern Pakistan, saying that such "groundless reports" were made with "ulterior motives."

"We believe the attempts of some people to fabricate stories to provoke China-Pakistan or China-India relations are doomed to fail," said Foreign Ministry spokesperson Jiang Yu in a statement.

The comment came in response to recent reports of some American and Indian press that China had deployed more than 10,000 troops in the Gilgit-Baltistan region of Pakistan.

Source: Xinhua 
China refutes reports of sending troops to Pakistan - People's Daily Online

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## Jade

WAQAS119 said:


> Link please???? Do not post anything without link!




Why not and with pleasure 

We won't interfere in JK: China


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## Patrician

Paladin said:


> I was too until a year ago.. nothing will change...



I'm an optimist...for my country...and even if nothing chages it's still in the interest of my country.

We are not the ones desperate to break the status quo my friend! It suits us fine.

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## bandit

Brotherhood said:


> This is the official response from China. I had no idea where all the add-on came from.
> 
> China on Wednesday rejected reports of the presence of over 11,000 Chinese troops in northern Pakistan, saying that such "groundless reports" were made with "ulterior motives."
> 
> "We believe the attempts of some people to fabricate stories to provoke China-Pakistan or China-India relations are doomed to fail," said Foreign Ministry spokesperson Jiang Yu in a statement.
> 
> The comment came in response to recent reports of some American and Indian press that China had deployed more than 10,000 troops in the Gilgit-Baltistan region of Pakistan.
> 
> Source: Xinhua
> China refutes reports of sending troops to Pakistan - People's Daily Online



I think your source did not report it fully...



> BEIJING, 2 SEPT: China today rejected reports of the presence of more than 11,000 Peoples Liberation Army troops in Pakista.n-occupied-Kashmir, saying that such "groundless reports" had been made with "ulterior motives".
> "We believe the attempts of some people to fabricate stories to provoke China-Pakistan or China-India relations are doomed to fail," foreign ministry spokesperson Ms Jiang Yu said in a statement. &#8220;The story that China has deployed its military in northern part of Pakistan is totally groundless and out of ulterior purpose," she said.
> It said it had no intention of interfering in the Kashmir issue but made it clear that it was not reviewing its stance on stapled visas to Kashmiris. &#8220;As a neighbour and friend of both countries, China believes that the (Kashmir) issue should be left to the two countries so that it could be properly handled through dialogue and consultation,&#8221; Ms Jiang Yu said in a media briefing. &#8220;About Kashmir issue our position is that we believe it is an issue left over from history between India and Pakistan."
> China rules out troops presence, J&K interference


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## Brotherhood

bandit said:


> I think your source did not report it fully...



But my source is the official one directly from China state own media, but anyway its up to whatever people like to believe.


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## bandit

Whats the point, whoever calls whatever...if there has to be a plebiscite as so vigorously demanded....all Kashmir has to be one again irrespective of terminology isn't it?


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## Patrician

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> What does that have to do with my post or your claims of 'integrity of India' which I refuted? Try addressing the arguments made first.
> 
> 
> I'll check them out, but my point made here stands.
> 
> I'm sorry, but India refused every single proposal for demilitarization and plebiscite put forward by the various UN appointed commissions - the intransigence was obviously on your side, and it is your side that withdrew from the commitment made to the Kashmiri people, international community and to Pakistan, that the dispute would be resolved through plebiscite.
> 
> These arguments, including the one that so clearly illustrates Indian hypocrisy and double standards between Muslims and Hindus, in occupying Hindu Junagadh and annexing it through plebiscite while denying the same to Muslims in J&K, are factual arguments, not emotions.
> 
> The emotional arguments here are the tripe about 'shedding blood, and not thinking twice about killing and dying over Indian integrity', when that integrity is based on hypocrisy, double standards, deceit and broken commitments to the Kashmiris and the international community.



Oh no not again!

Man, why are we going round and round the khoonta like a bhains?

Why don't you understand AM, we are acting on interests and not morals/promises/emotions/free will etc. because that's not the way you run a country.

1. We can't demilitarize until we see the promise of peace from the side of pak. We learnt our lessons from 1947, 1965 and Kargil. Quite frankly, we don't trust you. But don't worry demilitarization will be an automatic fallout the day K-issue is resolved. 

2. I don't care if we are called hypocrites/double standard/evils/satan and neither does GoI. Cmon AM, as I said, we are acting purely on our interests here. 

Does USA care when you call them everything you do?
Does China care when we call them everything we do?

Heck, even Idi Amin or Fidel Castro never cared what the world says about them. At least not beyond a certain point.

You may shout about junagarh and what not to your heart's content..the point is...IS ANYBODY LISTENING?

There's always a limit beyond which we don't pay heed to anyone's invectives.

One thing I have found here on PDF, even sane pakistani members are very very emotional when it comes to kashmir. My dear friend, you do not solve problems by being emotional, when will you understand this simple common sense?

Mushy wasn't emotional and see how far we went with him.

An emotional doctor only kills the patient.

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## Patrician

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Google is merely following the internationally and UN accepted status of J&K as disputed, *everywhere accept in India*.



*Why not in India if they are soooo righteous? *

Because of business right? So that means whenever and wherever a nation threatens Google, it will mend its ways, although in that country only, but it will nevertheless.

So you see their is a limit to their righteousness.

LOL...*ever heard of anything more ridiculous than 'limited righteousness'* ?

It's like saying 'limited love'
It's like saying 'limited honesty'

My friend, don't get confused. This is called opportunism, not righteousness.

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## PAKFA

@ patrician
I salute your avatar.

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## Patrician

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> In that case you should have made your intentions clear to the Kashmiris before your leadership promised them the right to self-determination to decide their status as part of India or Pakistan, and then further committed to that position through committing to the UNSC resolutions.
> 
> *Claiming 'integrity*' by denying Kashmiris the right to self-determination, which India herself chose to argue was the primary means of determining accession, through her invasion and annexation of the State of Jungadh over a month after it had acceded to Pakistan, and which your own leadership promised them and committed to, is dishonest to say the least.



Just to correct to you dear, he meant territorial integrity and not integrity of character. 

You got it wrong there

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## Patrician

PAKFA said:


> @ patrician
> *I salute your avatar*.



I too

Man were they men of great character and strength!

Aajkal aise leaders paida hee nahin hote.

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## RobbieS

> At the height of terrorism in Punjab, KPS Gill is said to have remarked that it was a battle between Jutt Sikhs. As a Jutt Sikh&#8212;those who sneer at such categorisation live in an India that exists only in their imagination&#8212;I can only add that Punjab is still part of the Indian State because there were an overwhelming number of Jutt Sikhs who felt that the Idea of India was worth defending.



Cant agree more with the above extract. As a Jatt Sikh myself, I have often been split between two half of my community. But usually after careful reflection I have found myself in India's side of the fence rather than Khalistan's. And the author correctly point out the key difference between the action in Punjab vs. the one in Kashmir. In Punjab, the Punjab Police led by a Jatt Sikh and made up 75&#37; of Jatt Sikhs led counter-insurgency operations against a Khalistani cadre more than 90% made up of Jatt Sikhs themselves. This fight within the community itself led to the realization of the futility of the conflict.

Unfortunately this hasn't been the case in Kashmir. The J&K Police though increasingly active has been overruled by the Center and controlled has inevitably passed to the Army. This suggests that the root alienation has still not been addressed as the Army cannot trust the local Police for taking care of Operations. And as further use of Central forces is going to inclrease alienation its best to address this root cause by talks. We have tried force and it hasnt helped. 

Lets take the other course now. Lets even discuss the issue of Azadi if that brings every separatist to the table. Lets send a signal to all others fighting the Union that you dont necessarily have to use violence to make us listen. We are willing to talk if you are too. Azadi might not be possible, due to political, geographic and ethnic reasons but at least if talking about it helps soothe some pain, lets do it.

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## RobbieS

dabong1 said:


> We have no problem with not being called "azad" kashmir........and we would be proud to become another province of pakistan.
> Make azad kashmir a province of pakistan...thats what the kashmiris want and demand.



So much for Azadi!

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## somebozo

Kashmir is not going anywhere else than independence....we want freedom!


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## roach

somebozo said:


> Kashmir is not going anywhere else than independence....we want freedom!



'We'? Are you an Indian Kashmiri by any chance????


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## NoEscape

somebozo said:


> Kashmir is not going anywhere else than independence....we want freedom!



Try and contribute something constructive for Kashmir if you have the ability and be a good neighbor. Rather then chest thumping & beating Deadwood.


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## majesticpankaj

somebozo said:


> Kashmir is not going anywhere else than independence....we want freedom!


ok...as you wish. just tell us the date and timing so that we can wrap our luggage.


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## Ganga

brahmastra said:


> you attacked Kashmir first, then* we went for Junagarh*.so,basically you gave us idea 'to attack princely states if they are not with you'.



A slight correction here.We didn't go for Junagarh,the PM of Junagarh Shah Nawaz Bhutto the father of Z A Bhutto gave it to us.We did not attack any princely state other than Hyderabad.

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## Urbanized Greyhound

all we get to hear are about "concessions" and "economic packages" and so on.....how about some stern action for once...?....bringing the instigators of the deadly riots to book....Geelani and his colleagues responsible for the avoidable deaths for so many innocents on the streets..... this government is as weak kneed as can be when national crises arise......


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## NoEscape

Urbanized Greyhound said:


> all we get to hear are about "concessions" and "economic packages" and so on.....how about some stern action for once...?....bringing the instigators of the deadly riots to book....Geelani and his colleagues responsible for the avoidable deaths for so many innocents on the streets..... this government is as weak kneed as can be when national crises arise......



*Agree..... Charge them & Hang them for once and all for instigating teenagers to commit suicide. And also, for mass murder of Non-Muslims for ages in the valley.*

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## Urbanized Greyhound

well ...technically J&K as a state *acceded* to us....pakistan chose to attack....not us....as far as "self determination" is concerned what about the "self determination" of Kashmiri pandits ? or perhaps it is "selective self determination" that is being refered to here....


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## GentlemanObserver

Patrician said:


> We are not the ones desperate to break the status quo my friend! It suits us fine.



Come on now... Lets not blow our own trumpets too quickly shall we... Self Service is the poorest form of flattery.


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## Agnostic_Indian

Skeptic said:


> It is. For me atleast just because we can maintain the status quo is an insufficient reason to continue doing so. This voilence has to stop not just for the sake of any singular or multiple identities but for the sake of humanity.
> 
> First step as mentioned is Listeing and second understanding. Not much sense can be made when the face explaining the situation is red with anger and froth spitting out. If we can not make sense of what they do want better start working of what they defenitely do not want. I am not sure how many of us would be overtly pleased while living under curfew for weeks at streach. For holding out ID cards at demand while kneeling down in an open field.
> 
> Trust has to begin somewhere and then only it can be expected to be reciprocated. The bigger question of how to begin this cycle is currently beyond me but people wiser and in authoratitive positions have to come up with the answer if we aspire to continue to hold dear this idea of inclusiveness.


we already have secular system with positive discriminations towards minorities.besides that kashmiris enjoy lot more special benefits.Still if they say...
what they do not want is army presence in living areas - well army can be kept in border areas only.rest should be given to kashmiri police men. 
if they want jobs,development,etc - we can give them

if they want greater autonomy - we may give them withing the frames of our constitution. 
if they want independent kashmir - no way we can give them. 
if they want islamic laws in state -no way we can give them. 
they will have to cooperate with security checks,show id cards, because they are not aliens they must know there is terrorists both inside and from out side.it is for their own and nations safety.if govt bans sms service they should understand that it is for national security. 
FREEDOM IS NOT ABSOLUTE FREEDOM IT IS CONDITIONAL.THEY TOO HAVE RESPONSIBILITY TOWARDS NATION AND THEIR FELLOW CITIZEN.


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## GentlemanObserver

toppys said:


> He can write that sitting in his ac office because that bsf guy is the one who face the shots. You should give him a gun and put in the middle of bullets to see how he distinguish a boy in the crowd coming to kill you then.



You totally missed the purpose of the article.

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## InPhilTraitor

somebozo said:


> The idea of India while remarkable will fail due to its inherent nature of dual identity. One regional and one national. Eventually people will be forced to choose sides when higher developed states called the lower ones liability and the lowers ones retaliate with accusations of encroachment.



Actually it is not a failure. India is certainly a Success, but always felt short of its potential. Yes, there are insurgencies, but the Congress-style of governance.. every thing from New Delhi has alienated different sections of people. The further solution is implementation of "local governing bodies" with both economic and political power backing them.

We are long way to go for Rich vs Poor states fight, it can happen in a generations time that is we have about 20 years for that.


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## Spring Onion

The idea of India??????????? Kashmir does not conform to the idea of India in the first place. Kashmir is NOT part of India hence NO question of bringing Kashmir as Indian entity to put forward idea of India.

rather the Indian writers, bloggers should focus their attention on Indian NorthEast infested with insurgencies, rather Indians should focus on how Maoists, Naxals and others come into equation of this losing Idea of India.


End of this flawed idea presented by the Indian writer according to Indian point of view.

Kashmir is Separate country occupied by India


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## InPhilTraitor

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Absolutely - the Kashmiris were promised they would have the choice to determine whether or not they wanted to enter into a compact of nationhood with India or not (as India did with the people of Junagadh, despite the ruler of the State acceding to Pakistan), and India violated that commitment to the Kashmiris and the international community.
> 
> Nations are not, as the author argues, built by superfluous claims constructed on the edifice of some religio-cultural myth of a motherland encompassing specific geographical points, but by the people inhabiting those lands determining of their own volition that they wish to be a part of a nation.
> 
> India, in denying the Kashmirs their promised right of self-determination, continues to deny them the right to decide on Indian nationhood, and instead force them to accept it.



I cannot envision any other alternative for India but to deny Kashmir valley its Azadi for now, even the agreement between Musharaf and Manmohan which was so close to be signed did not involve a plebisite. India for now is only interested for temporary solution that would incrementally will give way for Independent Kashmir. Giving Kashmiris outright Independence will really destabilize the entire nation, which could be a problem for the world in general and the neighborhood in particular.

The destabilization of India surrounds esp. Indian muslims, because there is a section of people in India who think the unfinished business of partition is "muslims living in India" (just like the pakistani wing thinks of Kashmir as unfinished business). So, it would be like throwing about 160million people to dogs. Very dangerous area to go. 

As much are my pakistani friends here are excited about Kashmir and royal screw up we have made out of it, be careful what you wish for.


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## ek_indian

Jana said:


> The idea of India??????????? Kashmir does not conform to the idea of India in the first place. Kashmir is NOT part of India hence NO question of bringing Kashmir as Indian entity to put forward idea of India.
> 
> rather the Indian writers, bloggers should focus their attention on Indian NorthEast infested with insurgencies, rather Indians should focus on how Maoists, Naxals and others come into equation of this losing Idea of India.
> 
> 
> End of this flawed idea presented by the Indian writer according to Indian point of view.
> 
> Kashmir is Separate country occupied by India




I hereby quote what Paladin said (with due respect):



> You totally missed the purpose of the article.



But such comments were expected from you, considering your views.

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## Leviza

anurag_singh said:


> Two nation theory failed(remember Bangladesh) but still discussing ideology of other's country. on your comment my reply :-



Well have you ever tried to read what Two Nation Theory is?????

If Bangladesh after 1971 become hindu Country then we can say Two Nation theory failed but as you know Bangladesh is a Mulim country so its still there....

Bangladesh people still eat cow meat, they still like Mulsims and they still are Great Muslims .....

*TWO Nation theory is still alive and you can see it in india as well*​


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## Fireurimagination

Not even a single pro-India Muslim Kashmiri youth in the panel, nothing but Barkha dutt special


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## InPhilTraitor

Leviza said:


> Well have you ever tried to read what Two Nation Theory is?????
> 
> If Bangladesh after 1971 become hindu Country then we can say Two Nation theory failed but as you know Bangladesh is a Mulim country so its still there....
> 
> Bangladesh people still eat cow meat, they still like Mulsims and they still are Great Muslims .....
> 
> *TWO Nation theory is still alive and you can see it in india as well*​



For the love of God, what an Ignorant post.. India is a secular country, Bangladesh amended their constitution declaring it a secular country.

You can go to lot of semantics whether two nation theory is success or failure, but you cannot say all Bangladeshis are muslims over 10% are Hindu. No, Bangladeshi is not Islamic state.


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## peacekeeper

Skeptic said:


> This is a conceptually ideal situation but practically almost impossible or rather improbable. All parts of India can not have same scale and levels of development. Even in developed countried this discrepancy does exist.
> 
> Some areas have ports and access to sea and some are land-locked, some areas have better natural resources and some have developed financial infrastructre. What we can aspire for a minimal level of development across region and beyond that these factors can come into play.
> 
> Moreover - The issue risen here is not just for development and infrastructure but something much more basic than that - A sense of belonging.





And more over the greatest resource kashmir have is its beauty which it can use by promoting tourism but these sporadic violence has not allowed them to use that resource

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## peacekeeper

InPhilTraitor said:


> For the love of God, what an Ignorant post.. India is a secular country, Bangladesh amended their constitution declaring it a secular country.
> 
> You can go to lot of semantics whether two nation theory is success or failure, but you cannot say all Bangladeshis are muslims over 10% are Hindu. No, Bangladeshi is not Islamic state.




Donno reply to him he have strong anti india mindset you can never have a logical discussion with them.It will derail the thread
just ignore him


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## Fireurimagination

The territorial integrity for a country is bigger than any thing and everything 'lives', 'idea of India', 'Democracy' etc etc

I do believe Kashmir has been mishandled but still people with separatist intentions should also have been rational, they won't find more azadi than they can have (once things are normal) in any other part of the planet, so what they should work towards is normalization

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## greatsequence

Patrician said:


> Just see the debate.



I have seen and now you should watch and please listen to the comments of the Brazilian football coach and his wife.


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## InPhilTraitor

Jana said:


> Kashmir is Separate country occupied by India



So does Azad Kashmir has an army? Embassy in any country? If Pakistan views Kashmir as a separate country, how come neither of these entities are there ?

Pakistan views Kashmir to be a part of Pakistan. pure and simple.

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## Trac

Jana said:


> The idea of India??????????? Kashmir does not conform to the idea of India in the first place. Kashmir is NOT part of India hence NO question of bringing Kashmir as Indian entity to put forward idea of India.
> 
> rather the Indian writers, bloggers should focus their attention on Indian NorthEast infested with insurgencies, rather Indians should focus on how Maoists, Naxals and others come into equation of this losing Idea of India.
> 
> 
> End of this flawed idea presented by the Indian writer according to Indian point of view.
> 
> Kashmir is Separate country occupied by India



*We can discuss a lot about Kashmir can you do the same for Azad kashmri that how much its actually Azad 

Can you make a separate thread about Azad Kashmir ??? 

Ill try 2 times but without any reason thread was deleted cause you dnt have guts to discuss reality 

If you have make a thread relatade to Azad Kashmir we will show you your reality *

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## Skeptic

bhagathsingh said:


> we already have secular system with *positive discriminations towards minorities*.besides that *kashmiris enjoy lot more special benefits*.Still if they say...
> what they do not want is army presence in living areas - well army can be kept in border areas only.rest should be given to kashmiri police men.
> if they want jobs,development,etc - we can give them
> 
> if they want greater autonomy - we may give them withing the frames of our constitution.
> if they want independent kashmir - no way we can give them.
> if they want islamic laws in state -no way we can give them.
> they will have to cooperate with security checks,show id cards, because they are not aliens they must know there is terrorists both inside and from out side.it is for their own and nations safety.if govt bans sms service they should understand that it is for national security.
> FREEDOM IS NOT ABSOLUTE FREEDOM IT IS CONDITIONAL.THEY TOO HAVE RESPONSIBILITY TOWARDS NATION AND THEIR FELLOW CITIZEN.



My first reservation is against the argument given in the bolded part. Economic and financial assistance are not the only factors to enable a claim for positive discriminations. What use has this assistance been put to and more importantly is it the only grievance of the population?

Second a conversation can not be held in an atmosphere where as you suggest you are fixated on what exactly you want to offer and the other side is frothing in anger. More important than what you offer is HOW you offer. The wordings appear to be too strict and too dominating. The question is not only whether we can give an independent Kashmir, but whether independent Kashmir is even feasible? It is whether they even desire Islamic law or we are assuming and denying something which is not even asked for?

Security checks and being asked for ID card is one thing but driven out of your house at odd hours to kneel in open fields is definitely any community will despise. It is done because we are doubt that some might be giving sanctuary to terrorist and not to ensure their safety. 

When a negotiation is taking place - any demand can not be dismissed as whim rather should be followed with a logical argument. In principal I almost agree with what is mentioned the manner is what I have reservations against.

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## EjazR

Ms Jiang Yu is Foreign spokesperson and she mentioned that its a India-Pakistan issue.

Infact all countries say that so this is nothing new. I don't understand why this seems to be big news.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

brahmastra said:


> you attacked Kashmir first, then we went for Junagarh.so,basically you gave us idea 'to attack princely states if they are not with you'.


Not true. The Tribal invasion (not Pak Mil) started on October 22 1947. 

On the 25th Sept, 1947, that Provisional Government of Junagadh was formed in Bombay, and rebels in Junagadh, supported by India and the 'Provisional Government' were on a rampage. India officially militarily entered the war on November 9th 1947, but Provisional Government forces (based out of India) were rampaging through Junagadh long before that.


Ganga said:


> A slight correction here.We didn't go for Junagarh,the PM of Junagarh Shah Nawaz Bhutto the father of Z A Bhutto gave it to us.We did not attack any princely state other than Hyderabad.


Wrong, see above. And Bhutto had no authority to do anything with Junagadh once the State had acceded to Pakistan. He was merely a local administrator. India was well aware of the Pakistani position on Junagadh, as can be seen from the various telegrams exchanged between the two governments. There was no question of Pakistan allowing Indian forces into Junagadh.

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## Patrician

EjazR said:


> Ms Jiang Yu is Foreign spokesperson and she mentioned that its a India-Pakistan issue.
> 
> Infact *all countries say that so this is nothing new*. I don't understand why this seems to be big news.



Flashback,

20-30 years back - It's a major international issue

10-years back - It's a potential nuclear flashpoint

Today - It's an India-Pak issue

After 10 years - It's a non-issue, we have many other important things to worry about.

After 20 years - Kashmir is an integral part of India. Don't be ridiculous.

After 30 years - Ha ha ha. Are you serious?

This is but the proof of how this world changes colors in front of power. This world understands nothing but power.

When we had saints like gandhi and nehru preaching non-violence and 'hindi chini bhai bhai' and NAM, we were ridiculed across the world. Our neighbour attacked us. We were called soviet stooges.

When we have world's second fastest growing economy. A great and huuuuuuuuge consumer base in the form of our middle class and a huge and decently powerful armed forces, the world is lining up at our door.

Money Talks!

Just wait till 2020 guys.

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## Jade

EjazR said:


> Ms Jiang Yu is Foreign spokesperson and she mentioned that its a India-Pakistan issue.
> 
> Infact all countries say that so this is nothing new. I don't understand why this seems to be big news.



Yes, you are right. In the eyes of international community, the Kashmir issue is pretty much settled (Status quo), and no country is willing to get involved between India and Pakistan.


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## Spring Onion

EjazR said:


> Ms Jiang Yu is Foreign spokesperson and she mentioned that its a India-Pakistan issue.
> 
> Infact all countries say that so this is nothing new. I don't understand why this seems to be big news.



The actual official statement had already been posted and its about Chinese denying all those lies, fabricated figures 11k Chinese troops in Northern Pakistan.

In the same press briefing the official said China will stick to stapled visas for Kashmiris from Indian Occupied Kashmir.

Simple and clear. There was NO physical involvement/interference of China in Indian Occupied Kashmir in the past too.

So Indian media/blogs can have a sugarcoated add-on for local public consumption


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## Ganga

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Wrong, see above. And Bhutto had no authority to do anything with Junagadh once the State had acceded to Pakistan. He was merely a local administrator. India was well aware of the Pakistani position on Junagadh, as can be seen from the various telegrams exchanged between the two governments. There was no question of Pakistan allowing Indian forces into Junagadh.



Bhutto did what looked best at that time.There was a rebellion in Junagarh against the decision of the nawab .He made this decision to prevent bloodshed .He was not merely a local administrator but the PM of the state.If the King really liked his country so much he would have stayed instead of fleeing to Karachi.Mr SN Bhutto was the man in charge now.

Moreover there were two minor states called Mangrol and Babariawad which were also ruled by Muslim kings.These two states decided to join India.The nawab considered these two states as his vassals and decided to annex them by force.India thereby launched 'operation peace' to get these two states which were now Indian territory. Indian forces did not enter Junagarh until they were asked to do so by the Junagarh dewan which at that point of time had much more power and authority than the king


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Ganga said:


> Bhutto did what looked best at that time.There was a rebellion in Junagarh against the decision of the nawab .He made this decision to prevent bloodshed .He was not merely a local administrator but the PM of the state.If the King really liked his country so much he would have stayed instead of fleeing to Karachi.Mr SN Bhutto was the man in charge now.


Whatever fancy title Bhutto held, his legal status after the accession of Junagadh to Pakistan was that of a local administrator - legally Junagadh was no longer an independent State. And the same applies with the King - once accession had taken place he had no role other than one that the State of Pakistan would assign to him. SN Bhutto was legally obliged to act only in accordance with the directives of the Pakistani State, and India was well aware of what the position of the Pakistani State was through its diplomatic communications with Pakistan.


> Moreover there were two minor states called Mangrol and Babariawad which were also ruled by Muslim kings.These two states decided to join India.The nawab considered these two states as his vassals and decided to annex them by force.India thereby launched 'operation peace' to get these two states which were now Indian territory. Indian forces did not enter Junagarh until they were asked to do so by the Junagarh dewan which at that point of time had much more power and authority than the king


The question of Mangrol and babariawad is a more complicated legal question than you make it out to be - the two were considered to be under the suzerainty of Junagadh, with the Nawab of Junagadh the main authority. The two would therefore have to abide by the decision of the Nawab on accession.

And India supported the provisional government of Junagadh leaders and rebels in conducting the campaign of violence and destabilization that Indian then herself used as an excuse to invade Junagadh. Bhutto had no authority to do anything along the lines of inviting a foreign entity to come into Junagadh - foreign affairs of Junagadh after accession were under the purview of Pakistan.


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## EjazR

An interesting point made here
*Peace In Kashmir*



> Let me cite some facts to confirm my point. Chaudhry Muhamnmad Ali was the Prime Minister of Pakistan in the period 1955-1957. Prior to this, he had been a senior minister in the cabinet of Prime Minister Liaqat Ali Khan. In his voluminous book Emergence of Pakistan he relates that shortly after the Partition, the Muslim ruler of the Hindu-majority princely state of Junagadh declared that his state would accede to Pakistan. India refused to accept this decision and sent in its armed forces that took over the state and incorporated it into India. After this, a meeting was held in Delhi, attended by Jawaharlal Nehru and Sardar Patel, from the Indian side, and Liaqat Ali Khan and Chaudhry Muhammad Ali, from the Pakistani side. Chaudhry Muhammad Ali writes:
> 
> &#8216;Sardar Patel, although a bitter enemy of Pakistan, was a greater realist than Nehru. In one of the discussions between the two Prime Ministers, at which Patel and I were also present, Liaqat Ali Khan dwelt on the inconsistency of the Indian stand with regard to Junagadh and Kashmir. If Junagadh, despite its Muslim ruler&#8217;s accession to Pakistan, belonged to India because of its Hindu majority, how could Kashmir, with its Muslim majority, be a part of India simply by virtue of its Hindu ruler having signed a conditional instrument of accession to India? If the instrument of accession signed by the Muslim ruler of Junagadh was of no validity, the instrument of accession signed by the Hindu ruler of Kashmir was also invalid. If the will of the people was to prevail in Junagadh, it must prevail in Kashmir as well. India could not claim both Junagadh and Kashmir.
> 
> &#8216;When Liaqat made these incontrovertible points, Patel could not contain himself and burst out: &#8220;Why do you compare Junagadh with Kashmir? Talk of Hyderabad and Kashmir, and we could reach an agreement.&#8221; Patel&#8217;s view at this time, and even later, was that India&#8217;s efforts to retain Muslim-majority areas against the will of the people were a source not of strength but of weakness to India. He felt that if India and Pakistan agreed to let Kashmir go to Pakistan and Hyderabad to India, the problems of Kashmir and of Hyderabad could be solved peacefully and to the mutual advantage of India and Pakistan.&#8217;
> 
> If what Chaudhry Muhammad Ali says is true, it is incontrovertible evidence that the conflict over Kashmir is a creation of the Pakistani leaders themselves, and not of India.
> 
> Further proof of this is available in another book by an important Pakistani leader, Sardar Shaukat Hayat Khan. This book was originally written in Urdu under the title Gumgashta Qaum. Its English title is The Nation That Lost Its Soul. In this book, Sardar Shaukat Hayat Khan reveals:
> 
> &#8216;When Mountbatten arrived in Lahore when fighting broke out in Kashmir, he addressed an important dinner meeting which was attended by the Pakistani Prime Minister Liaqat Ali Khan, the Governor of the Punjab, and four Ministers from the Punjab, where he delivered a message from Patel. In his message, Patel suggested that India and Pakistan should abide by the principles that had been agreed upon between the Congress and the Muslim League with regard to the political future of the princely states, according to which the states would accede to India or Pakistan depending on the religion of the majority of their inhabitants as well as their contiguity to either of the two countries. Accordingly, Patel suggested that Pakistan should take Kashmir and renounce its claims to Hyderabad Deccan, which had a Hindu majority and which had no land or sea border with Pakistan. After delivering this message, Mountbatten retired to the Government House to rest.&#8217;
> 
> Sardar Shaukat Hayat Khan further relates:
> 
> &#8216;I was in-charge of Pakistan&#8217;s operations in Kashmir. I went to see Liaqat Ali Khan, and pointed out that Indian forces had entered Kashmir and that Pakistan could not succeed in driving them out using the tribal raiders to ensure that Kashmir became part of Pakistan. I even said that it seemed unlikely that the Pakistani Army could succeed in doing so. Hence, I insisted, we must not reject Patel&#8217;s offer. But Liaqat Ali Khan turned to me and said, &#8220;Sardar Sahib! Have I gone mad that I should leave the state of Hyderabad Deccan, which is even larger than the Punjab, in exchange for the mountains and peaks of Kashmir?&#8221;
> 
> &#8216;I was stunned at Liaqat Ali Khan&#8217;s reaction, shocked that our Prime Minister was so ignorant of geography, and at his preferring Hyderabad Deccan over Kashmir. This was nothing but living in a fool&#8217;s paradise. To acquire Hyderabad was clearly impossible, and we were rejecting an opportunity that would have given us Kashmir. Yet, Liaqat was totally unaware of the importance of Kashmir for Pakistan. That is why I resigned in protest as in-charge of Kashmir operations.&#8217;


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## Ganga

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And India supported the provisional government of Junagadh leaders and rebels in conducting the campaign of violence and destabilization that Indian then herself used as an excuse to invade Junagadh.



India did not destabilize anything.The people of the state were against the decision of joining Pakistan from the very beginning .It is very natural that there were riots and protests.At the later stages even the Muslims in Junagarh wanted to join India and not Pakistan.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> &#8216;When Liaqat made these incontrovertible points, Patel could not contain himself and burst out: &#8220;Why do you compare Junagadh with Kashmir? Talk of Hyderabad and Kashmir, and we could reach an agreement.&#8221;



Why should Junagadh have been left out? Patel was being disingenuous here. If anything, the issue was of J&K vs both Junagadh and Hyderabad. India was being hypocritical and selective in its policies in both latter instances.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Patrician said:


> Just to correct to you dear, he meant territorial integrity and not integrity of character.
> 
> You got it wrong there


I didn't get it wrong - I referred to 'integrity' primarily in the context of territory, as used by the poster, though I may have also used it in the context of 'moral integrity' in other places.

In any case, stick to the arguments instead of pointless asides.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Patrician said:


> Oh no not again!
> 
> Man, why are we going round and round the khoonta like a bhains?
> 
> Why don't you understand AM, we are acting on interests and not morals/promises/emotions/free will etc. because that's not the way you run a country.


I never ceases to surprise me how quickly Indians run away from any rational arguments defending their position in Kashmir and turn to what essentially amounts to 'India is expansionist and wants more land, and we will invade and occupy whatever land we want to', in this case Kashmir.

By extension this argument also means that India is a warmongering State that cannot be trusted by its neighbors, and Pakistan's position WRT India is absolutely justified - because by extension of this argument Indians are often reduced to regurgitating, India could invade and occupy the territory of Pakistan or any other nation and then annex it by claiming 'interests' - i.e India is a warmongering, hostile nation and a perpetual threat to its neighbors.



> 1. We can't demilitarize until we see the promise of peace from the side of pak. We learnt our lessons from 1947, 1965 and Kargil. Quite frankly, we don't trust you. But don't worry demilitarization will be an automatic fallout the day K-issue is resolved.


Demilitarization was covered by the various UN appointed commissions, it was India that refused to accept the many sensible proposals advocated by them.


> 2. I don't care if we are called hypocrites/double standard/evils/satan and neither does GoI. Cmon AM, as I said, we are acting purely on our interests here.


Again, see first part of my response.



> You may shout about junagarh and what not to your heart's content..the point is...IS ANYBODY LISTENING?


Whether someone is listening or not does not change history and the facts, and your repeated attempts to do anything other than address the arguments is indicative of the fact that you have lost the argument.


> One thing I have found here on PDF, even sane pakistani members are very very emotional when it comes to kashmir. My dear friend, you do not solve problems by being emotional, when will you understand this simple common sense?
> 
> Mushy wasn't emotional and see how far we went with him.
> 
> An emotional doctor only kills the patient.



Again, I am not the one posting tripe about 'dying, bleeding, killing' to maintain some sort of 'integrity' based on a religio-cultural myth of 'mother India'. I have pointed out why the Indian position on J&K, keeping in mind Indian actions in Junagadh and Hyderabad, is flawed and illegal, and how that leads to the position that the Indian State is occupying the land and people of Kashmir.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Patrician said:


> *Why not in India if they are soooo righteous? *
> 
> Because of business right? So that means whenever and wherever a nation threatens Google, it will mend its ways, although in that country only, but it will nevertheless.
> 
> So you see their is a limit to their righteousness.
> 
> LOL...*ever heard of anything more ridiculous than 'limited righteousness'* ?
> 
> It's like saying 'limited love'
> It's like saying 'limited honesty'
> 
> My friend, don't get confused. This is called opportunism, not righteousness.



None of which negates the point that the google is essentially letting Indians live in their delusional world when it comes to the status of Kashmir, while the rest of the world gets to deal with the facts.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Ganga said:


> India did not destabilize anything.The people of the state were against the decision of joining Pakistan from the very beginning .It is very natural that there were riots and protests.At the later stages even the Muslims in Junagarh wanted to join India and not Pakistan.



The Provisional Government was openly based and supported in India, and it was Provisional Government rebels that carried out the majority of violence and instability in Junagadh. There isn't much more needed to establish Indian complicity in the chaos and destabilization of Junagadh.


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## Patrician

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The Provisional Government was openly based and supported in India, and it was Provisional Government rebels that carried out the majority of violence and instability in Junagadh. There isn't much more needed to establish Indian complicity in the chaos and destabilization of Junagadh.



AM, It's been sooooooo many threads and sooooooooo many posts yet I'm still searching for an answer. Since I consider you a rational person and hence respect your views, I had asked you a question in the other thread but may be because of your busy schedule, you couldn't find time to answer me.

My dear AM,

I accept all your views and agree with them

I repeat, I accept all your views and agree with them

I repeat again, I accept all your views and agree with them

Now my dear AM, will you please care to answer a simple question of mine?

Please. I beg of you.

I will put it in caps so that it doesn't escape your eyespan. 

So AM, here is my question,

WHY DID THE GOVERNMENT OF PAKISTAN INSIST, AND AS A RESULT SUCCEED, ON REMOVING 'INDEPENDENCE' AS AN OPTION FOR THE KASHMIRIS??? I'M SURE YOU ARE AWARE THAT IN CASE A REFERENDUM TAKES PLACE, 'INDIA' AND 'PAKISTAN' ARE THE ONLY OPTIONS AVAILABLE TO THEM AND THIS WAS DONE ON GOP's INSISTENCE.

Please my dear AM, do reply to this simple query of mine. 

Peace!

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## Patrician

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The Provisional Government was openly based and supported in India, and it was Provisional Government rebels that carried out the majority of violence and instability in Junagadh. There isn't much more needed to establish Indian complicity in the chaos and destabilization of Junagadh.



AM, It's been sooooooo many threads and sooooooooo many posts yet I'm still searching for an answer. Since I consider you a rational person and hence respect your views, I had asked you a question in the other thread but may be because of your busy schedule, you couldn't find time to answer me.

My dear AM,

I accept all your views and agree with them

I repeat, I accept all your views and agree with them

I repeat again, I accept all your views and agree with them

Now in the backdrop of my my accepting your arguments and in fact agreeing with them, my dear AM, will you please care to answer a simple question of mine?

Please. I beg of you.

I will put it in caps so that it doesn't escape your eyespan. 

So AM, here is my question,

WHY DID THE GOVERNMENT OF PAKISTAN INSIST, AND AS A RESULT SUCCEED, ON REMOVING 'INDEPENDENCE' AS AN OPTION FOR THE KASHMIRIS??? I'M SURE YOU ARE AWARE THAT IN CASE A REFERENDUM TAKES PLACE, 'INDIA' AND 'PAKISTAN' ARE THE ONLY OPTIONS AVAILABLE TO THEM AND THIS WAS DONE ON GOP's INSISTENCE. GOP AND MANY PAKISTANIS HERE ON PDF CHAMPION THE CAUSE OF THE KASHMIRIS' FREE WILL. MY DEAR AM, WHERE DID THIS CONCERN FOR THEIR FREE WILL GO THEN?

Please my dear AM, do reply to this simple query of mine. 

Peace!

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## somebozo

InPhilTraitor said:


> For the love of God, what an Ignorant post.. India is a secular country, Bangladesh amended their constitution declaring it a secular country.
> 
> You can go to lot of semantics whether two nation theory is success or failure, but you cannot say all Bangladeshis are muslims over 10&#37; are Hindu. No, Bangladeshi is not Islamic state.



India is as much secular as Israel or Vatican. A country which is birth place of hinduism reverting to secularism is dream at best. Think of saudis can be turned secular??



> Polygamy and civil polygamous marriages are legal in Bangladesh, though the practice is rapidly declining. An estimated 1% of Bangladeshi men are in polygamous marriage; much lower than the average rate found in other nations that permit polygamy. Certain cities have also placed hefty taxes on the practice of polygamy, with the tax increasing per each new wife the man takes. There is no known limit for the number of wives a man can take in Bangladesh, though the social norm is usually up to four.



Bangladesh has a right to choose whatever political system they want be is secular or islamic. The fact is that with a country of 90% muslim population the majority influences will flow and it will remain an islamic country unless it gets kicked out of OIC.


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## Patrician

It's been sooooooo many threads and sooooooooo many posts yet I'm still searching for an answer. Since I consider many pakistani friends here rational,hence respect your views, I have a question for all of you and would like to receive your views.

My dear friends,

I will put it in caps so that it doesn't escape your eyespan.

So here is my question,

WHY DID THE GOVERNMENT OF PAKISTAN INSIST, AND AS A RESULT SUCCEED, ON REMOVING 'INDEPENDENCE' AS AN OPTION FOR THE KASHMIRIS??? I'M SURE YOU ARE AWARE THAT IN CASE A REFERENDUM TAKES PLACE, 'INDIA' AND 'PAKISTAN' ARE THE ONLY OPTIONS AVAILABLE TO THEM AND THIS WAS DONE ON GOP's INSISTENCE. GOP AND MANY PAKISTANIS HERE ON PDF CHAMPION THE CAUSE OF THE KASHMIRIS' FREE WILL. MY DEAR FRIENDS, WHERE DID THIS CONCERN FOR THEIR FREE WILL GO THEN?

Please my dear friends, do reply to this simple query of mine.

Peace!

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## somebozo

InPhilTraitor said:


> So does Azad Kashmir has an army? Embassy in any country? If Pakistan views Kashmir as a separate country, how come neither of these entities are there ?
> 
> Pakistan views Kashmir to be a part of Pakistan. pure and simple.



Umm no we dont..
They have a seprate flag, their own para-millitary forces, seprate identity cards and passports. If a Kashmiri wants to come and establish business in mainland Pakistan it will be treated under forigen investment rules. Mainland Pakistanis are not permitted to buy and sell property in Azad kashmir though this rule if often over run due to intermingled family releations. Kashmiris have intermingled family releations with people of Punjab and KhyberPuktunkwa and a deep cultural integration dating thousands of years. So how they can fall under indian influence which has a hindi culture??

Tattoo it in your blind eyes







Flag of Azad Kashmir.


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## somebozo

Ganga said:


> India did not destabilize anything.The people of the state were against the decision of joining Pakistan from the very beginning .It is very natural that there were riots and protests.At the later stages even the Muslims in Junagarh wanted to join India and not Pakistan.



So India should honour the same wishes of Kashmiris on equality basis?? Why do these politics of duplicity obessed with self-benefit only??? Moral police ambushed with own principles?? Isn't there a rebellion going on in Kashmir since 63 years too??? A rebellion in indian favour honoured and against india crushed?? Akhand bharat mentality??




> WHY DID THE GOVERNMENT OF PAKISTAN INSIST, AND AS A RESULT SUCCEED, ON REMOVING 'INDEPENDENCE' AS AN OPTION FOR THE KASHMIRIS??? I'M SURE YOU ARE AWARE THAT IN CASE A REFERENDUM TAKES PLACE, 'INDIA' AND 'PAKISTAN' ARE THE ONLY OPTIONS AVAILABLE TO THEM AND THIS WAS DONE ON GOP's INSISTENCE. GOP AND MANY PAKISTANIS HERE ON PDF CHAMPION THE CAUSE OF THE KASHMIRIS' FREE WILL. MY DEAR AM, WHERE DID THIS CONCERN FOR THEIR FREE WILL GO THEN?



Because the Indian are not willing to recocnize Kashmiri right to independence and insisit there wont be breakaway of Kashmir and had been using this clause to withold referendum. The GoP insist to honour referendum on basis of equal choice while Indian persist "anything but independence for Kashmir". You do realize there cant be a referendum in Pakistani Kashmir with a three choices versus two in IOK. So overall, the removal of third choice is due to akhand bharat stubborness and less to do with GoP.

GoP favours an autonomous Kashmir under Pakistani protection or a sovergien independent Kashmir. Kashmiris have deep rooted ties among families of Punjab and KP and accession of Kashmir to India will spell a security nightmare for us.


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## Patrician

somebozo said:


> India is as much secular as Israel or Vatican. *A country which is birth place of hinduism reverting to secularism is dream at best. Think of saudis can be turned secular??*
> 
> 
> 
> Bangladesh has a right to choose whatever political system they want be is secular or islamic. The fact is that with a country of 90% muslim population the majority influences will flow and it will remain an islamic country unless it gets kicked out of OIC.



When hinduism was born, present day Bangladesh, India and Pakistan were all part of the same land (i'm calling it a 'land' in deference to many pakistanis here who don't accept that 'India' existed before the British/Mughals came). And hence, your logic can be very very conveniently extended to the conclusion that neither can Pakistan nor Bangladesh ever be secular.

Proceeding forward,

Having said that, I must now draw your attention to the fact that the Quaid-e-Azam always wanted Pakistan to be secular and since I've proved above (taking cue from your very own logic) that Pakistan can't be secular ever as neither can India (on which basis you state that Indian secularism is a farce), so would you, my dear friend, accept that Quaid-e-Azam was wrong in his conviction to make Pakistan a secular country?

Secondly, my dear somebozo, would you accept that by accepting secularism, Bangladesh, which seperated from British India as a part of Pakistan, has in fact validated the conviction of the Quaid?

If, my dear somebozo, you have a difficulty in understanding some very long sentences and nebulous language that I've used above, I'd rephrase myself as follows,

Bangladesh has , as we all are aware, accepted secularism and Pakistan has not. So does Bangladesh (whose example you yourself cited in your 'logic' above) negate the theory of the Quaid or does Pakistan?

Awaiting your reply,

Regards,

Peace!

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## Patrician

fateh71 said:


> Why did they ánnexe' GB?
> 
> Why did they donate parts of Kashmir to China?
> 
> The bleeding hearts club is a hardcore political military industrial complex, not a humanitarian charity. Don't take their daily protestations seriously.



This thread is for one question and one question only. You are free to post your question elsewhere in accordance with your wishes and the forum rules.

I, as the thread starter, request you and everybody else, to stick to the question which I asked.

Thank you for your co-operation,

Regards,

peace!

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## somebozo

I support every motive of secular Pakistan and strongly aggree with principles of Quaid. We dont have to become Atheist republic for the sake of adopting secularism. We will remain Islamic regardless of our political system. Think of Turkey as Secular Islamic state. Islamic socio-polical system also advocates secularity. Please aviod narrow minded nit-picking and please proceed.


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## Awesome

Independence is acceptable to Pakistanis, only India rejects it.

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## Patrician

Asim Aquil said:


> Independence is acceptable to Pakistanis, only India rejects it.



It wasn't acceptable then, why so?


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## LaBong

somebozo said:


> I support every motive of secular Pakistan and strongly aggree with principles of Quaid. We dont have to become Atheist republic for the sake of adopting secularism. We will remain Islamic regardless of our political system. *Think of Turkey as Secular Islamic state. Islamic socio-polical system also advocates secularity*. Please aviod narrow minded nit-picking and please proceed.



Is Turkey a Islamic state? I think they even don't allow religious symbols in schools, uni etc. Western version of secularism is different than that of what we follow in India. Mainly because India haven't experienced Church versus State. 

We have seen riots too many, that's why all the talk of tolerance and people don't generally want to meddle in others religion.


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## Awesome

In any case I think there need to be a two-part referrendum

Round 1) Pakistan vs India

Round 2) Winner of Round 1 vs Independence. This will tell you EXACTLY what the Kashmiris want.

---------- Post added at 01:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 PM ----------




Patrician said:


> It wasn't acceptable then, why so?


Then? When? Link/source of information?

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## Patrician

Asim Aquil said:


> In any case I think there need to be a two-part referrendum
> 
> Round 1) Pakistan vs India
> 
> Round 2) Winner of Round 1 vs Independence. This will tell you EXACTLY what the Kashmiris want.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 PM ----------
> 
> 
> Then? When? Link/source of information?



Why wasn't this explicitly stated by GoP in 1947?

Am I to construe that the stance of GoP vis a vis independence has changed?


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## GentlemanObserver

Asim Aquil said:


> Independence is acceptable to Pakistanis, only India rejects it.



*The Plebiscite Front was a political party in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir that called for a "popular plebiscite" to decide if the state should remain part of India, join Pakistan or become independent*

Now part of the Council for J&K. Self determination is a right for ALL.

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## Coltsfan

> In any case I think there need to be a two-part referrendum
> 
> Round 1) Pakistan vs India
> 
> Round 2) Winner of Round 1 vs Independence. This will tell you EXACTLY what the Kashmiris want.



Agreed,

On one condition though, Lalloo Yadav will be responsible for conducting the referendum 

Needless to say am kiddin........ 

Forget any kinda referendum, not gonna happen


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## GentlemanObserver

Patrician said:


> Why wasn't this explicitly stated by GoP in 1947?
> 
> Am I to construe that the stance of GoP vis a vis independence has changed?



1947... Fledgling nation... 3 Rivers.. 2010: *Times change. *

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## Patrician

RESOLUTION 47 (1948) ON THE INDIA-PAKISTAN QUESTION SUBMITTED JOINTLY BY THE REPRESENTATIVES FOR BELGIUM, CANADA, CHINA, COLUMBIA, THE UNITED KINGDOM AND UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND ADOPTED BY THE SECURITY COUNCIL AT ITS 286TH MEETING HELD ON 21 APRIL, 1948. (DOCUMENT NO. S/726, DATED THE 21ST APRIL, 1948).

THE SECURITY COUNCIL

Having considered the complaint of the Government of India concerning the dispute over the State of Jammu and Kashmir, having heard the representative of India in support of that complaint and the reply and counter complaints of the representative of Pakistan,

Being strongly of opinion that the early restoration of peace and order in Jammu and Kashmir in essential and that India and Pakistan should do their utmost to bring about cessation of all fighting,

Noting with satisfaction that both India and Pakistan desire that the question of the accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India or Pakistan would be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite,

Considering that the continuation of the dispute is likely to endanger international peace and security,

Reaffirms its resolution 38 (1948) of 17 January 1948;

Resolves that the membership of the Commission established by its resolution 39 (1948) of 20 January 1948, shall be increased to five and shall include, in addition to the membership mentioned in that Resolution, representatives of ....and ..., and that if the membership of the commission has not been completed within ten days from the date of the adoption of this resolution the President of the Council may designate such other Member or Members of the United Nations as are required to complete the membership of five;

Instructs the Commission to proceed at once to the Indian sub-continent and there place its good offices and mediation at the disposal of the Governments of India and Pakistan with a view to facilitating the taking of the necessary measures, both with respect to the restoration peace and order and to the holding of a plebiscite by the two Governments, acting in co-operation with one another and with the Commission, and further instructs the Commission to keep the Council informed of the action taken under the resolution; and, to this end,

Recommends to the Governments of India and Pakistan the following measures as those which in the opinion of the Council and appropriate to bring about a cessation of the fighting and to create proper conditions for a free and impartial plebiscite to decide whether the State of Jammu and Kashmir is to accede to India or Pakistan.


A - RESTORATION OF PEACE AND ORDER

1. The Government of Pakistan should undertake to use its best endeavors:

1. To secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purposes of fighting, and to prevent any intrusion into the State of such elements and any furnishing of material aid to those fighting in the State;

2. To make known to all concerned that the measures indicated in this and the following paragraphs provide full freedom to all subjects of the State, regardless of creed, caste, or party, to express their views and to vote on the question of the accession of the State, and that therefore they should co-operate in the maintenance of peace and order. 

2. The Government of India should:
1. When it is established to the satisfaction of the Commission set up in accordance with the Council's Resolution 39 (1948) that the tribesmen are withdrawing and that arrangements for the cessation of the fighting have become effective, put into operation in consultation with the Commission a plan for withdrawing their own forces from Jammu and Kashmir and reducing them progressively to the minimum strength required for the support of the civil power in the maintenance of law and order;

2. Make known that the withdrawal is taking place in stages and announce the completion of each stage;

3. When the Indian forces shall have been reduced to the minimum strength mentioned in (a) above, arrange in consultation with the Commission for the stationing of the remaining forces to be carried out in accordance with the following principles:
1. That the presence of troops should not afford any intimidation or appearance of intimidation to the inhabitants of the State;

2. That as small a number as possible should be retained in forward areas;

3. That any reserve of troops which may be included in the total strength should be located within their present base area. 

3. The Government of India should agree that until such time as the plebiscite administration referred to below finds it necessary to exercise the powers of direction and supervision over the State forces and policy provided for in paragraph 8, they will be held in areas to be agreed upon with the Plebiscite Administrator.

4. After the plan referred to in paragraph 2(a) above has been put into operation, personnel recruited locally in each district should so far as possible be utilized for the reestablishment and maintenance of law and order with due regard to protection of minorities, subject to such additional requirements as may be specified by the Plebiscite Administration referred to in paragraph 7.

5. If these local forces should be found to be inadequate, the Commission, subject to the agreement of both the Government of India and the Government of Pakistan, should arrange for the use of such forces of either Dominion as it deems effective for the purpose of pacification.

B - PLEBISCITE

6. The Government of India should undertake to ensure that the Government of the State invite the major political groups to designate responsible representatives to share equitably and fully in the conduct of the administration at the ministerial level, while the plebiscite is being prepared and carried out.

7. The Government of India should undertake that there will be established in Jammu and Kashmir a Plebiscite Administration to hold a plebiscite as soon as possible on the question of the accession of the State to India or Pakistan.

8. The Government of India should undertake that there will be delegated by the State to the Plebiscite Administration such powers as the latter considers necessary for holding a fair and impartial plebiscite including, for that purpose only, the direction and supervision of the State forces and police.

9. The Government of India should at the request of the Plebiscite Administration, make available from the Indian forces such assistance as the Plebiscite Administration may require for the performance of its functions.

10.
1. The Government of India should agree that a nominee of the Secretary-General of the United Nations will be appointed to be the Plebiscite Administrator.

2. The Plebiscite Administrator, acting as an officer of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, should have authority to nominate the assistants and other subordinates and to draft regulations governing the Plebiscite. Such nominees should be formally appointed and such draft regulations should be formally promulgated by the State of Jammu and Kashmir.

3. The Government of India should undertake that the Government of Jammu and Kashmir will appoint fully qualified persons nominated by the Plebiscite Administrator to act as special magistrates within the State judicial system to hear cases which in the opinion of the Plebiscite Administrator have a serious bearing on the preparation and the conduct of a free and impartial plebiscite.

4. The terms of service of the Administrator should form the subject of a separate negotiation between the Secretary-General of the United Nations and the Government of India. The Administrator should fix the terms of service for his assistants and subordinates.

5. The Administrator should have the right to communicate directly, with the Government of the State and with the Commission of the Security Council and, through the Commission, with the Security Council, with the Governments of India and Pakistan and with their representatives with the Commission. It would be his duty to bring to the notice of any or all of the foregoing (as he in his discretion may decide) any circumstances arising which may tend, in his opinion, to interfere with the freedom of the Plebiscite. 

11. The Government of India should undertake to prevent and to give full support to the Administrator and his staff in preventing any threat, coercion or intimidation, bribery or other undue influence on the voters in the plebiscite, and the government of India should publicly announce and should cause the Government of the State to announce this undertaking as an international obligation binding on all public authorities and officials in Jammu and Kashmir.

12. The Government of India should themselves and through the government of the State declare and make known that all subjects of the state of Jammu and Kashmir, regardless of creed, caste or party, will be safe and free in expressing their views and in voting on the question of the accession of the State and that there will be freedom of the Press, speech and assembly and freedom of travel in the State, including freedom of lawful entry and exit.

13. The Government of India should use and should ensure that the Government of the State also use their best endeavor to effect the withdrawal from the State of all Indian nationals other than those who are normally resident therein or who on or since l5th August 1947 have entered it for a lawful purpose.

14. The Government of India should ensure that the Government of the State releases all political prisoners and take all possible steps so that:
1. all citizens of the State who have left it on account of disturbances are invited and are free to return to their homes and to exercise their rights as such citizens;
2. there is no victimization;
3. minorities in all parts of the State are accorded adequate protection. 

15. The Commission of the Security Council should at the end of the plebiscite certify to the Council whether the plebiscite has or has not been really free and impartial.

C-GENERAL PROVISIONS

16. The Governments of India and Pakistan should each be invited to nominate a representative to be attached to the Commission for such assistance as it may require in the performance of its task.

17. The Commission should establish in Jammu and Kashmir such observers as it may require of any of the proceedings in pursuance of the measures indicated in the foregoing paragraphs.

18. The Security Council Commission should carry out the tasks assigned to it herein.


* The Security Council voted on this Resolution on 20-1-1948 with the following result:-

In favor: **Argentina, **Canada. China, France, **Syria, U. K, and U. S. A

Against: None

Abstaining: **Belgium, **Columbia, **Ukrainian S. S. R. . and U. S. S. R.

** Non-permanent Members of the Security Council.



http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc21apr48.htm


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## GentlemanObserver

Coltsfan said:


> Forget any kinda referendum, not gonna happen



There you go Patrician, you have your answer...


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## Awesome

Patrician said:


> Why wasn't this explicitly stated by GoP in 1947?
> 
> Am I to construe that the stance of GoP vis a vis independence has changed?


Pakistan has always supported the right of self-determination by Kashmiris.

If they want to commit their allegiance to Martians then so be it, thats their right.

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## Patrician

*RESOLUTION 39 (1948) SUBMITTED BY THE REPRESENTATIVE OF BELGIUM AND ADOPTED BY THE SECURITY COUNCIL AT ITS 230TH MEETING HELD ON 20 JANUARY, 1948. (DOCUMENT NO. S/654, DATED THE 20TH JANUARY, 1948).

THE SECURITY COUNCIL

Considering that it may investigate any dispute or any situation which might, by its continuance, endanger the maintenance of international peace and security, and that, in the existing state of affairs between India and Pakistan, such an investigation is a matter of urgency,

Adopts the following resolution:

1. A Commission of the Security Council is hereby established, composed of representatives of three Members of the United Nations, one to be selected by India, one to be selected by Pakistan, and the third to be designated by the two so selected.Each representative on the Commission shall be entitled to select his alternates and assistants.

2. The Commission shall proceed to the spot as quickly as possible. It shall act under the authority of the Security Council and in accordance with the directions it may receive from it. It shall keep the Security Council currently informed of its activities and of the development of the situation. It shall report to the Security Council regularly, submitting its conclusions and proposals.

3. The Commission is invested with a dual function; (1) to investigate the facts pursuant to Article 34 of the Charter of the United Nations; (2) to exercise, without interrupting the work of the Security Council, any mediatory influence likely to smooth away difficulties, to carry out the directions given to it by the Security Council; and to report how far the advice and directions, if any, of the Security Council, have been carried out.

4. The Commission shall perform the functions described in Clause C: (1) in regard to the situation in Jammu and Kashmir State set out in the letter of the Representative of India addressed to the President of the Security Council, dated 1 January 1948, and in the letter from the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan addressed to the Secretary-General, dated 15 January 1948; and (2) in regard to other situations set out in the letter from the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan addressed to the Secretary-General, dated 15 January 1948, when the Security Council so directs.

5. The Commission shall take its decision by majority vote. It shall determine its own procedure. It may allocate among its members, alternate members, their assistants, and its personnel such duties as may have to be fulfilled for the realization of its mission and the reaching of its conclusions.

6. The Commission, its members, alternate members, their assistants, and its personnel, shall be entitled to journey separately or together, wherever the necessities of their task may require, and, in particular within those territories which are the theater of the events of which the Security Council is seized.

7. The Secretary-General shall furnish the Commission with such personnel and assistance as it may consider necessary. 

*The Security Council voted on this Resolution on 20-1-1948 with the following result:

Infavour: **Argentina, **Belgium, **Canada, China, **Columbia, France, **Syria, U.K. and U.S.A

Against: None

Abstaining: Ukrainian S. S. R. and U. S. S. R.

**Non-Permanent Members of the Security Council.


http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc20jan48.htm

---------- Post added at 02:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:57 PM ----------

*DRAFT RESOLUTION PRESENTED BY THE PRESIDENT (CANADA) OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL AND THE RAPPORTEUR (BELGIUM) ON 6 FEBRUARY, 1948 (DOCUMENT NO. 667, DATED THE 10TH FEBRUARY, 1948)

THE SECURITY COUNCIL

1. Having considered the claims and allegations of India and Pakistan expresses the conviction that a peaceful settlement of the dispute about the accession of Jammu and Kashmir will best promote the interests of the peoples of Jammu and Kashmir of India, and of Pakistan.
2. Considers that it is urgent and important to stop acts of violence and hostility in Jammu and Kashmir and to decide the question of whether the State of Jammu and Kashmir shall accede to Pakistan or to India by the democratic method of a plebiscite to be held, as recognized by the parties, under the auspices of the United Nations to ensure complete impartiality.
3. Believes that the joint action of the Governments of India and Pakistan is required to carry out the purposes setforth below:
4. Alternative A
Takes note with satisfaction that both Governments, in seeking a solution by negotiation under the auspices of the Council, have agreed to cooperate with each other and with the Council in developing specific proposals, and, to this end, to apply the following, principles which, in the opinion of the Council, should, among others, constitute the basis of a just settlement;

Alternative B

Appeals, therefore, to both parties, in seeking a solution by negotiation under the auspices of the Council, to cooperate with each other and with the Council in developing specific proposals and, to this end, to apply the following principles which, in the opinion of the Council, should, among others, constitute the basis of a just settlement;
1. Acts of violence and hostility must end.
2. The withdrawal and continued exclusion of all irregular forces and armed individuals who have entered Jammu and Kashmir from outside must be brought about, each party using to that end all the influence at its disposal.
3. Regular armed forces in aid of the establishment and maintenance of order must be made available. In this connection the Governments should seek to ensure cooperation between their military forces to establish order and security until the question of accession shall have been determined by the plebiscite.
4. Regular armed forces must be withdrawn as soon as reestablishment of law and order permits.
5. After acts of violence and hostility have ceased, all citizens of the Jammu and Kashmir State, who had left on account of the recent disturbances, shall be invited and be free to return to their homes and to exercise all their rights without any restrictions on legitimate political activity. There shall be no victimization. All political prisoners should be released.
6. The conditions necessary for a free and fair plebiscite on the question of whether the State of Jammu and Kashmir shall accede to India or to Pakistan, including an interim administration which will command confidence and respect of the people of the State of Jammu and Kashmir must be established.
7. Such conditions include that the plebiscite must be organized, held and supervised under the authority of the Security Council at the earliest possible date. 

*This draft resolution was considered by the Security Council on 10th and 11th February, 1948, but was not put to vote. Subsequent]y, a Joint Draft Resolution was introduced by the Representatives of Belgium, Canada, China, Columbia, United Kingdom and the United States of America and its amended version (Doc. No S/726) was adopted by the Security Council on 21-4-1948, vide Resolution No 47 (I948).

http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc6feb48.htm


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## Patrician

Kashmir in the United Nations

Guys please save me unnecessary labour, go and see the resolutionos for yourself.

Regards,

Peace


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## Patrician

Asim Aquil said:


> Pakistan has always supported the right of self-determination by Kashmiris.
> 
> If they want to commit their allegiance to Martians then so be it, thats their right.



Please show me the source which says Pakistan supported 'independent' kashmir in particular in 1947.


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## Awesome

Patrician said:


> RESOLUTION 47 (1948) ON THE INDIA-PAKISTAN QUESTION SUBMITTED JOINTLY BY THE REPRESENTATIVES FOR BELGIUM, CANADA, CHINA, COLUMBIA, THE UNITED KINGDOM AND UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND ADOPTED BY THE SECURITY COUNCIL AT ITS 286TH MEETING HELD ON 21 APRIL, 1948. (DOCUMENT NO. S/726, DATED THE 21ST APRIL, 1948).
> 
> THE SECURITY COUNCIL
> 
> Having considered the complaint of the Government of India concerning the dispute over the State of Jammu and Kashmir, having heard the representative of India in support of that complaint and the reply and counter complaints of the representative of Pakistan,
> 
> Being strongly of opinion that the early restoration of peace and order in Jammu and Kashmir in essential and that India and Pakistan should do their utmost to bring about cessation of all fighting,
> 
> Noting with satisfaction that both India and Pakistan desire that the question of the accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India or Pakistan would be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite,
> 
> Considering that the continuation of the dispute is likely to endanger international peace and security,
> 
> Reaffirms its resolution 38 (1948) of 17 January 1948;
> 
> Resolves that the membership of the Commission established by its resolution 39 (1948) of 20 January 1948, shall be increased to five and shall include, in addition to the membership mentioned in that Resolution, representatives of ....and ..., and that if the membership of the commission has not been completed within ten days from the date of the adoption of this resolution the President of the Council may designate such other Member or Members of the United Nations as are required to complete the membership of five;
> 
> Instructs the Commission to proceed at once to the Indian sub-continent and there place its good offices and mediation at the disposal of the Governments of India and Pakistan with a view to facilitating the taking of the necessary measures, both with respect to the restoration peace and order and to the holding of a plebiscite by the two Governments, acting in co-operation with one another and with the Commission, and further instructs the Commission to keep the Council informed of the action taken under the resolution; and, to this end,
> 
> Recommends to the Governments of India and Pakistan the following measures as those which in the opinion of the Council and appropriate to bring about a cessation of the fighting and to create proper conditions for a free and impartial plebiscite to decide whether the State of Jammu and Kashmir is to accede to India or Pakistan.
> 
> 
> A - RESTORATION OF PEACE AND ORDER
> 
> 1. The Government of Pakistan should undertake to use its best endeavors:
> 
> 1. To secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purposes of fighting, and to prevent any intrusion into the State of such elements and any furnishing of material aid to those fighting in the State;
> 
> 2. To make known to all concerned that the measures indicated in this and the following paragraphs provide full freedom to all subjects of the State, regardless of creed, caste, or party, to express their views and to vote on the question of the accession of the State, and that therefore they should co-operate in the maintenance of peace and order.
> 
> 2. The Government of India should:
> 1. When it is established to the satisfaction of the Commission set up in accordance with the Council's Resolution 39 (1948) that the tribesmen are withdrawing and that arrangements for the cessation of the fighting have become effective, put into operation in consultation with the Commission a plan for withdrawing their own forces from Jammu and Kashmir and reducing them progressively to the minimum strength required for the support of the civil power in the maintenance of law and order;
> 
> 2. Make known that the withdrawal is taking place in stages and announce the completion of each stage;
> 
> 3. When the Indian forces shall have been reduced to the minimum strength mentioned in (a) above, arrange in consultation with the Commission for the stationing of the remaining forces to be carried out in accordance with the following principles:
> 1. That the presence of troops should not afford any intimidation or appearance of intimidation to the inhabitants of the State;
> 
> 2. That as small a number as possible should be retained in forward areas;
> 
> 3. That any reserve of troops which may be included in the total strength should be located within their present base area.
> 
> 3. The Government of India should agree that until such time as the plebiscite administration referred to below finds it necessary to exercise the powers of direction and supervision over the State forces and policy provided for in paragraph 8, they will be held in areas to be agreed upon with the Plebiscite Administrator.
> 
> 4. After the plan referred to in paragraph 2(a) above has been put into operation, personnel recruited locally in each district should so far as possible be utilized for the reestablishment and maintenance of law and order with due regard to protection of minorities, subject to such additional requirements as may be specified by the Plebiscite Administration referred to in paragraph 7.
> 
> 5. If these local forces should be found to be inadequate, the Commission, subject to the agreement of both the Government of India and the Government of Pakistan, should arrange for the use of such forces of either Dominion as it deems effective for the purpose of pacification.
> 
> B - PLEBISCITE
> 
> 6. The Government of India should undertake to ensure that the Government of the State invite the major political groups to designate responsible representatives to share equitably and fully in the conduct of the administration at the ministerial level, while the plebiscite is being prepared and carried out.
> 
> 7. The Government of India should undertake that there will be established in Jammu and Kashmir a Plebiscite Administration to hold a plebiscite as soon as possible on the question of the accession of the State to India or Pakistan.
> 
> 8. The Government of India should undertake that there will be delegated by the State to the Plebiscite Administration such powers as the latter considers necessary for holding a fair and impartial plebiscite including, for that purpose only, the direction and supervision of the State forces and police.
> 
> 9. The Government of India should at the request of the Plebiscite Administration, make available from the Indian forces such assistance as the Plebiscite Administration may require for the performance of its functions.
> 
> 10.
> 1. The Government of India should agree that a nominee of the Secretary-General of the United Nations will be appointed to be the Plebiscite Administrator.
> 
> 2. The Plebiscite Administrator, acting as an officer of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, should have authority to nominate the assistants and other subordinates and to draft regulations governing the Plebiscite. Such nominees should be formally appointed and such draft regulations should be formally promulgated by the State of Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> 3. The Government of India should undertake that the Government of Jammu and Kashmir will appoint fully qualified persons nominated by the Plebiscite Administrator to act as special magistrates within the State judicial system to hear cases which in the opinion of the Plebiscite Administrator have a serious bearing on the preparation and the conduct of a free and impartial plebiscite.
> 
> 4. The terms of service of the Administrator should form the subject of a separate negotiation between the Secretary-General of the United Nations and the Government of India. The Administrator should fix the terms of service for his assistants and subordinates.
> 
> 5. The Administrator should have the right to communicate directly, with the Government of the State and with the Commission of the Security Council and, through the Commission, with the Security Council, with the Governments of India and Pakistan and with their representatives with the Commission. It would be his duty to bring to the notice of any or all of the foregoing (as he in his discretion may decide) any circumstances arising which may tend, in his opinion, to interfere with the freedom of the Plebiscite.
> 
> 11. The Government of India should undertake to prevent and to give full support to the Administrator and his staff in preventing any threat, coercion or intimidation, bribery or other undue influence on the voters in the plebiscite, and the government of India should publicly announce and should cause the Government of the State to announce this undertaking as an international obligation binding on all public authorities and officials in Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> 12. The Government of India should themselves and through the government of the State declare and make known that all subjects of the state of Jammu and Kashmir, regardless of creed, caste or party, will be safe and free in expressing their views and in voting on the question of the accession of the State and that there will be freedom of the Press, speech and assembly and freedom of travel in the State, including freedom of lawful entry and exit.
> 
> 13. The Government of India should use and should ensure that the Government of the State also use their best endeavor to effect the withdrawal from the State of all Indian nationals other than those who are normally resident therein or who on or since l5th August 1947 have entered it for a lawful purpose.
> 
> 14. The Government of India should ensure that the Government of the State releases all political prisoners and take all possible steps so that:
> 1. all citizens of the State who have left it on account of disturbances are invited and are free to return to their homes and to exercise their rights as such citizens;
> 2. there is no victimization;
> 3. minorities in all parts of the State are accorded adequate protection.
> 
> 15. The Commission of the Security Council should at the end of the plebiscite certify to the Council whether the plebiscite has or has not been really free and impartial.
> 
> C-GENERAL PROVISIONS
> 
> 16. The Governments of India and Pakistan should each be invited to nominate a representative to be attached to the Commission for such assistance as it may require in the performance of its task.
> 
> 17. The Commission should establish in Jammu and Kashmir such observers as it may require of any of the proceedings in pursuance of the measures indicated in the foregoing paragraphs.
> 
> 18. The Security Council Commission should carry out the tasks assigned to it herein.
> 
> 
> * The Security Council voted on this Resolution on 20-1-1948 with the following result:-
> 
> In favor: **Argentina, **Canada. China, France, **Syria, U. K, and U. S. A
> 
> Against: None
> 
> Abstaining: **Belgium, **Columbia, **Ukrainian S. S. R. . and U. S. S. R.
> 
> ** Non-permanent Members of the Security Council.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc21apr48.htm


The UN resolution is by the UNSC not by Pakistan and both India and Pakistan are obligated to follow it as members of the UN.

I also would like to point out UN Resolution 98, one which Indians like to not publicize since in it, along with Pakistan withdrawing its troops, even India is asked to withdraw its troops. Both should reduce to a minimum level which was understood would be necessary to maintain law and order

Kashmir, UN Security Council Resolution 98



> THE SECURITY COUNCIL,
> Recalling its resolutions, 91(1951) of 30 March 1951, its decision of 30 April 1951 and its
> resolutions 96 (1951) of 10 November 1951,
> 
> Further Recalling the provisions of the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan
> resolutions of 13 August 1948, and 5 January 1949, which were accepted by the Governments of
> India and Pakistan and which provided that the question of the accession of the State of Jammu and
> Kashmir to India or Pakistan would be decided through the democratic method of a free and
> impartial plebiscite conducted under the auspices of the United Nations.
> 
> Having received the third report, dated 22 April 1952, and the fourth report, dated 16 September
> 1952, of the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan;
> 
> 1. Endorses the general principles on which the United Nations Representative has sought to bring
> about agreement between the Governments of India and Pakistan;
> 
> 2. Notes with gratification that the United Nations Representative has reported that the Governments
> of India and Pakistan have accepted all but two of the paragraphs of his twelve-point proposals;
> 
> 3. Notes that agreement on a plan of demilitarisation of the State of Jammu and Kashmir has not
> been reached because the Governments of India and Pakistan have not agreed on the whole of
> paragraph 7 of the twelve- point proposals;
> 
> 4. Urges the Governments of India and Pakistan to enter into immediate negotiations under the
> auspices of the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan in order to reach agreement on
> the specific number of forces to remain on each side of the cease-fire line at the end of the period of
> demilitarisation, this number to be between 3,000 and 6,000 armed forces remaining on the Pakistan
> side of the cease-fire line and between 12,000 and 18,000 armed forces remaining on the India side
> of the cease-line, as suggested by the United Nations Representative in his proposals of 16 July
> 1952, such specific numbers to be arrived at bearing in mind the principles or criteria contained in
> paragraph 7 of the United Nations Representative's proposal of 4 September 1952;
> 
> 5. Records its gratitude to the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan for the great
> efforts which he has made to achieve a settlement and requests him to continue to make his services
> available to the Governments of India and Pakistan to this end;
> 
> 5. Requests the Governments of India and Pakistan to report to the Security Council not later than
> thirty days from the date of the adoption of this resolution;
> 
> 6. Requests the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan to keep the Security Council
> informed of any progress.
> 
> The Security Council voted on this Resolution on 23-12-52 with the following result:
> In favour: Brazil, China, France, Greece, Netherlands, Turkey, U.K. and U.S.A.
> Against: None
> Abstaining: U.S.S.R.
> One Member (Pakistan) did not participate in the voting.

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## Awesome

Patrician said:


> Please show me the source which says Pakistan supported 'independent' kashmir in particular in 1947.


Show me the source which says Pakistan was against Kashmir's independence in 1947. Please.

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## Patrician

Asim Aquil said:


> Show me the source which says Pakistan was against Kashmir's independence in 1947. Please.



My source (the original text of the resolutions) doesn't mention 'independence' for kashmir.


*If it is not mentioned, it means it doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist, It means GoP's current stance that Pakistan will support an 'independent' kashmir is in itself against the spirit of the resolution which it proclaims to uphold.
*

HOW CAN YOU SHOUT ABOUT RESOLUTIONS WHOSE VERY TEXT YOU YOURSELF NEGATE?

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## Awesome

Patrician said:


> *I PROMISE I'LL THANK EVERY FUTURE POST OF THE PERSON WHO COULD SHOW ME THE WORD 'INDEPENDENCE' ABOVE.*



Your assertion was not that whether or not UNSC gave independence as an option to the Kashmiris, you are saying the option was there but Pakistan got it removed.

Pakistan supports Kashmir forming into an independent state, if India would let go of its totalitarian position and come to this compromise.

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## Agnostic_Indian

somebozo said:


> India is as much secular as Israel or Vatican. A country which is birth place of hinduism reverting to secularism is dream at best. Think of saudis can be turned secular??
> 
> 
> 
> Bangladesh has a right to choose whatever political system they want be is secular or islamic. The fact is that with a country of 90% muslim population the majority influences will flow and it will remain an islamic country unless it gets kicked out of OIC.



Read indian constitution.
and in bangladesh people their elected a govt and they seems to be in favour of SECULARism.


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## Awesome

Patrician said:


> My source (the original text of the resolutions) doesn't mention 'independence' for kashmir.
> 
> 
> *If it is not mentioned, it means it doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist, It means GoP's current stance that Pakistan will support an 'independent' kashmir is in itself against the spirit of the resolution which it proclaims to uphold.
> *
> 
> HOW CAN YOU SHOUT ABOUT RESOLUTIONS WHOSE VERY TEXT YOU YOURSELF NEGATE?


Of course Independence would be a compromised solution for the betterment and the prosperity of the Kashmiri people. But both India and Pakistan have to agree to it. 

Pakistan agrees, India doesn't.

If you don't want it to go Indpendent then conduct a plebiscite. You know how that will end - In Pakistan's favor. We're doing YOU a favor and making sure your egos are not hurt by Pakistan clinching Kashmir through democratic means.

So be thankful that Pakistan is giving you more options than you deserve.

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## Patrician

Paladin said:


> 1947... Fledgling nation... 3 Rivers.. 2010: *Times change. *



*Now, paladin, you have provided me with what I was looking for! *

Times change huh?

So Pakistan's stance changed?

What if I say, India's stance also changed. What if now I say "India doesn't care about the resolutions, times change (because Paladin said they do) and hence our stance has changed."

Ab bolo?

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## Patrician

Asim Aquil said:


> Of course Independence would be a compromised solution for the betterment and the prosperity of the Kashmiri people. But both India and Pakistan have to agree to it.
> 
> Pakistan agrees, India doesn't.
> 
> If you don't want it to go Indpendent then conduct a plebiscite. You know how that will end - In Pakistan's favor. We're doing YOU a favor and making sure your egos are not hurt by Pakistan clinching Kashmir through democratic means.
> 
> So be thankful that Pakistan is giving you more options than you deserve.



Again my friend, you are digressing from the topic. 

Pakistan didn't agree then or else it would never have accepted the resolutions itself.

The fact that pakistan accepted the resolution which doesn't mention 'independence' anywhere is quite liable to imly that it didn't support 'independence' then.

And if it didn't support independence then, how come Pakistan support it now?

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## Awesome

Patrician said:


> *Now, paladin, you have provided me with what I was looking for! *
> 
> Times change huh?
> 
> So Pakistan's stance changed?
> 
> What if I say, India's stance also changed. What if now I say "India doesn't care about the resolutions, times change (because Paladin said they do) and hence our stance has changed."
> 
> Ab bolo?


You haven't proven Pakistan's stance was against Independence yet... 

You just made that up!

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## Patrician

Asim Aquil said:


> You haven't proven Pakistan's stance was against Independence yet...
> 
> You just made that up!



My dear Asim,


Pakistan supported a resolution which doesn't support independence. It means Pakistan didn'y support independence at least back then.


What's so difficult to understand here my friend?

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## Awesome

Patrician said:


> My dear Asim,
> 
> 
> Pakistan supported a resolution which doesn't support independence. It means Pakistan didn'y support independence at least back then.
> 
> 
> What's so difficult to understand here my friend?


No it means Pakistan supported giving Kashmiris a democratic right to choose between India and Pakistan so that we won't have to fight a war instead. Remember that the UN resolutions were triggered by a ceasefire that India initiated, after Pakistan had taken the area which forms Azad Kashmir now.

It doesn't mean Pakistan was against it... Perhaps it never came up... Perhaps India was against it? I can make up stuff too. Stick to facts that are there in black and white.

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## GentlemanObserver

Patrician said:


> *Now, paladin, you have provided me with what I was looking for! *
> 
> Times change huh?
> 
> So Pakistan's stance changed?
> 
> What if I say, India's stance also changed. What if now I say "India doesn't care about the resolutions, times change (because Paladin said they do) and hence our stance has changed."
> 
> Ab bolo?



Tu phir zada door dekhne ke zururat nahi... Just look at the ME and Palestine. Theek hain, if you want to lock horns in Limbo... Be our guests 

Why WONT you give them the right to Chose?

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## Patrician

^^ Ha ha... I never ever support locking horns my friend.

I told you, I'm an optimist.

I'm not a saint, neither is my country nor do I claim we are.

Don't you think it's time you also dropped this 'holier than thou' attitude?

After all, my dear, (i really respect you), Hamam mein sab nange hain!

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## Patrician

Paladin said:


> Tu phir zada door dekhne ke zururat nahi... Just look at the ME and Palestine. Theek hain, if you want to lock horns in Limbo... Be our guests
> 
> *Why WONT you* give them the right to Chose?



Now we are stepping into the realm of ethics.

And my dear friend Paladin, 

do I have to remind you how 'ethical' we south asians have been? You want to get me banned?

Truth is bitter dear. I hope you've already swallowed it and hence don't wanna swallow it once more.

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## Awesome

Patrician said:


> ^^ Ha ha... I never ever support locking horns my friend.
> 
> I told you, I'm an optimist.
> 
> I'm not a saint, neither is my country nor do I claim we are.
> 
> Don't you think it's time you also dropped this 'holier than thou' attitude?
> 
> After all, my dear, (i really respect you), Hamam mein sab nange hain!



So now you're backing off of your claim that Pakistan got the independence option removed?

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## EjazR

A local Srinagar based journalist oped for Pakistanis who still think that the valley residents still want to join Pakistan. 

*Why celebrate August 14? By Nawaz Gul Qanungo*

*By Nawaz Gul Qanungo *

_The current turmoil in the valley has yet again exposed the farce of the &#8220;mainstream&#8221; political establishment, and brought the Hurriyat (G) to the forefront. But Geelani's call for the &#8220;celebration&#8221; of Pakistan 's Independence Day shows the gulf between the Hurriyat's politics and the larger scheme of political goals of today's Kashmir &#8211; a gulf that needs to be bridged before it's too late_

The Kashmir Times | Srinagar | August 14, 2010

&#8220;If India agrees then we will get Pakistan to withdraw its security forces from Azad Kashmir, Gilgit and Baltistan.&#8221; Syed Ali Shah Geelani said this while talking to The Times of India ( August 5, 2010 ) soon after he was released by the state government in a bid to cool the tempers on Kashmiri streets. The Hurriyat leader was explaining his stand on just what a lasting peace in Kashmir &#8211; indeed the subcontinent &#8211; would take: India should withdraw its security forces and agree to a plebiscite.

He continued: &#8220;The referendum should be for every citizen of united Jammu and Kashmir .&#8221; (Emphasis added.) &#8220;This is the basic demand of the people and has been for the last 62 years. We will accept whatever the majority decides.&#8221; Geelani seems to be strangely removed from the political reality of Kashmir today.

As the report suggests, Geelani wants that the referendum be in line with the 1948 United Nations Security Council resolutions calling for the people of J&K to choose between India and Pakistan , as he has maintained for a very long time now. &#8220;He maintained,&#8221; the report adds, &#8220;there was no room for a third option of independence unless a tripartite dialogue between India , Pakistan and the &#8216;genuine leadership of the people of J & K agrees to put it on the table for popular vote.'&#8221;

The politics of Geelani it seems is stuck in Partition of 1947 and the ensuing tussle between India and Pakistan over who gets the prize of the valley of Kashmir clothed with the erstwhile &#8220;state of J&K&#8221; all intact, a sub-continental ambition that has left no one but the ordinary Kashmiri in a life of abject misery since more than sixty years now. The politics of today in Kashmir, on the other hand, is a discourse where the &#8220;two and a half districts&#8221; of Jammu &#8211; and even Ladakh &#8211; are better left aside to pave way to a genuine transition of power in Kashmir to its people, which they truly and rightfully deserve, in an independent state of Kashmir &#8211; just Kashmir . This discourse even presupposes that the two divided parts of Kashmir be reunited and the so called line of control be wiped off. In other words, it is a politics that challenges the very existence of the erstwhile state of J&K.

A clear indication of this should be found in Kashmir : Paths to peace, a Clatham House survey conducted in 2009 across the Line of Control. If the details of the survey proved anything, it was this: Imagining the so called state of J&K as some sort of an inviolable, united territory is one of the biggest obstructions towards a Kashmir resolution. What is refreshingly certain is the people of the valley are aware of this reality. 74-95 per cent of people Indian-held Kashmir demand independence &#8211; not Pakistan . In the valley, the &#8220;only region with anyone intending to vote to join Pakistan, the highest proportions, 6 per cent and 7 per cent, were in Srinagar and Budgam districts,&#8221; the survey finds. Needless to say, there are no takers for India either on this side of Kashmir or that side across the LoC. For the LoC itself, in its present form, there are no takers among those to whom it matters . Just as while Jammu is almost willing for India going to war against Pakistan , both sides of Kashmir demand complete demilitarisation. The space here doesn't allow a complete analysis of the survey, which excludes parts such as Gilgit and Baltistan.

Geelani's remarks as quoted above not just defy the current political atmosphere, but even the natural geography of the valley and the region surrounding it. Above all, in a sense, it defies Kashmir 's sense of an independent History.

Not more than two decades ago, Pakistan was a country that fables were made of. But Kashmir was certainly not to miss the effects of the extraordinary violence that marked the decade after Pakistan-supported militancy began in 1989. The violence that has left the valley torn with tens of thousands dead, thousands missing, thousands orphaned, thousands half widowed and many more widowed, towns and villages mass raped has not just had an impact on the Kashmiri psyche but its politics as well. This loss and bloodshed came fundamentally in the form of the gruesome* military response the Indian establishment came up with as an answer to a Kashmiri armed rebellion.* *But in this gory tale lies muffled the fact that Pakistan was a primary contributor to this violence since the idea was its state policy. But, muffled it may be, not lost or ignored. The Kashmiri culture of support to the state of Pakistan perhaps lies cremated along with our countless brothers and sisters buried at Eidgah.*

Geelani noted in his interview: &#8220;[ Pakistan or India , even China and Russia ] know that J & K will become a colony of the United States &#8230; Until all four countries, and Afghanistan , give guarantees to safeguard our boundaries, until we can arrange for our defence, I don't think independence is a realistic option.&#8221; It is this option that Kashmir today believes is the only one that can bring its people true peace &#8211; a peace that doesn't depend on the throws of either India or Pakistan . Kashmir today empathises with the tragedy of Pakistan and understands too how Kashmir is linked to that tragedy. But it doesn't want to be a part of either the tragedy or the country, Pakistan cricket notwithstanding. Not surprisingly, when the Hurriyat (G) came out with its protest programme last weekend and called for observing &#8220;black day&#8221; on India's independence day, and celebrations on the day of Pakistan's independence, the question raised in the Kashmiri cyberspace, but one that was left ignored, was why.

HOWEVER, IT REMAINS undeniable that the 80-year-old leader remains the most formidable proponent of Kashmir's long struggle against Indian's military occupation and its people's defiance against what has, since long now, been nothing but state-sponsored terrorism. Not for nothing was Geelani deliberately allowed by the state to come out in the open, after two long months of a bloody political repression on the streets, in a desperate attempt to send across the message that the politics of the street was finally being allowed to be expressed. No one else was believed to hold sway over the masses except the ailing leader. It is a different matter, of course, that it was too late. It is too late.

It was interesting to note how a phrase has caught the frenzy of anybody and everybody worth his salt of expertise in India during the ongoing turmoil: &#8220;Reaching out to the people &#8211; the angry young boys &#8211; of Kashmir .&#8221; Starting from the so called liberal Indian media, through the ramparts of the Indian intelligentsia, its bureaucracy and the political establishment alike, up to sections of the Indian civil society hell bent up on blaming the current agitation on &#8220;poor governance and lack of administration&#8221;, everyone addressed the state's political machinery and expressed the same dilemma: &#8220;Why don't you go and reach out to them, engage with the angry boys on the streets, convince them to shun the path of violence?&#8221;

A lost, depressed Muzaffar Hussain Beg gave in and finally replied: &#8220;I would have loved to go there to reach out to the protesters but these are young boys and they are very angry. They don't listen to anybody. &#8221; He was right. The people on the streets of Kashmir have defied the so called leadership right across the board. They don't listen to anybody. But they listen to Syed Ali Shah Geelani. *And they listen to him for he represents their collective defiance &#8211; defiance that they believe should not just be against India but equally against Pakistan , not just against August 15, 1947 but equally against August 14. It is time Geelani, in turn, listens to them.*

Dr Qanungo is an independent journalist based in Srinagar .

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## GentlemanObserver

Patrician said:


> ^^ Ha ha... I never ever support locking horns my friend.
> 
> I told you, I'm an optimist.
> 
> I'm not a saint, neither is my country nor do I claim we are.
> 
> Don't you think it's time you also dropped this 'holier than thou' attitude?
> 
> After all, my dear, (i really respect you), Hamam mein sab nange hain!



Indeed if that is the case, perhaps Indians need to stop Pakistani to do "introspection", sit on the table and chalk out a plan to give the Kashmir s a choice.

Let them choose. India, Pakistan or Independence. In the words of Orlov the Meerkat... "Simplez".


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## GentlemanObserver

Patrician said:


> Now we are stepping into the realm of ethics.
> 
> And my dear friend Paladin,
> 
> do I have to remind you how 'ethical' we south asians have been? You want to get me banned?
> 
> Truth is bitter dear. I hope you've already swallowed it and hence don't wanna swallow it once more.





> I hope you've already swallowed it


Now who is adopting the holier' than thou attitude? 
---
South-Asians ko Chooro, aur agey ke baat karo. Lets just stick to Kashmir shall we...

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## Patrician

Asim Aquil said:


> So now you're backing off of your claim that Pakistan got the independence option removed?



I backed off? Mujhe pata bhi nahin chala?

Seriously asim, it's not that difficult english my friend.


Simple see baat hai, Pakistan supported a resolution which didn't mention 'independence'. It logically and standard 7 english, means, Pakistan supported all the aspects of that resolution. 

Doesn't supporting something (and that too vociferously) which doesn't contain 'X' mean that you support exclusion of 'X'?

It's simple deductive reasoning. What's soooooo difficult to understand unless you intentionally DON'T WANT TO understand?

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## notsuperstitious

Paladin said:


> Indeed if that is the case, perhaps Indians need to stop Pakistani to do "introspection", sit on the table and chalk out a plan to give the Kashmir s a choice.
> 
> Let them choose. India, Pakistan or Independence. In the words of Orlov the Meerkat... "Simplez".



Changing boundaries is anything but "Simplez" sir.

A solution is indeed needed, but its not creating another landlocked small client state. Hey you don't mean you plan to ignore India's concerns in this matter, do you?

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## Patrician

Paladin said:


> Now who is adopting the holier' than thou attitude?
> ---
> South-Asians ko Chooro, aur agey ke baat karo. Lets just stick to Kashmir shall we...



As an Indian, my friend, I can assure you, my generation of young Indians looking way ahead of south asia. We're looking east, west, north, south you see.

Now let's get back to topic shall we?


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## GentlemanObserver

Patrician said:


> As an Indian, my friend, I can assure you, my generation of young Indians looking way ahead of south asia. We're looking east, west, north, south you see.
> 
> Now let's get back to topic shall we?



And who mentioned the nature of South Asians. Or the attitude problem.



> As an Indian, my friend, I can assure you, my generation of young Indians looking way ahead of south asia.



As do we as Young Pakistanis dear friend, as do we...



> Now let's get back to topic shall we?



Yes, indeed... Lets!

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## EjazR

The point is that GoP/PA/ISI are against the independance of Jammu Kashmir historical. The people might have different views or some might be in the illusion that Kashmiris want to join Pakistan but the fact remains that PA/ISI in particular and by extension GoP want to assimilate Kashmir and not grant it any independance. How can they lose the only land connection to China?

Read the Shadow War: The Untold Story of Jihad in Kashmir ny Author Arif Jamal on how after training Kashmir JKLF militants who were pro-independance, ISI assasinated many of these and even provided intelligence to India to cut them down to size. Reason was because they were getting popular in Pakistan as well.
That is when HuJI LeT and other so called "Jihadi" organisations went after the secular JKLF and any sepratist who opposed joiing Pakistan.
Mirwaiz Father, Sajjad Lone's father all are victims of ISI backed sepratists because they wanted independance.

So bottom line is that PA/ISI don't want independance and since they basically have a veto of foreign policy in Pakistan--GoP doesnt want indepenace of Kashmir either.

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## Patrician

Paladin said:


> And who mentioned the nature of South Asians. Or the attitude problem.



Well, the attitude problem does exist Paladin. If you stop voicing that something bad is happening, it will always keep on happening.

If you want, I can create another thread specifically on 'Attitude problems on South Asians'




Paladin said:


> As do we as Young Pakistanis dear friend, as do we...



And that's what makes me soooo optimistic.


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## Patrician

somebozo said:


> I support every motive of secular Pakistan and strongly aggree with principles of Quaid. We dont have to become Atheist republic for the sake of adopting secularism. We will remain Islamic regardless of our political system. Think of Turkey as Secular Islamic state. Islamic socio-polical system also advocates secularity. Please aviod narrow minded nit-picking and please proceed.



So you mean to say such secularism can exist in turkey and Pakistan but not in India!

'Holier than thou' are we?


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## Awesome

Patrician said:


> I backed off? Mujhe pata bhi nahin chala?
> 
> Seriously asim, it's not that difficult english my friend.
> 
> 
> Simple see baat hai, Pakistan supported a resolution which didn't mention 'independence'. It logically and standard 7 english, means, Pakistan supported all the aspects of that resolution.
> 
> Doesn't supporting something (and that too vociferously) which doesn't contain 'X' mean that you support exclusion of 'X'?
> 
> It's simple deductive reasoning. What's soooooo difficult to understand unless you intentionally DON'T WANT TO understand?


The UNSC passes the resolution, not Pakistan. 

India and Pakistan MUST obey. You think Pakistan would've itself said "Oh its okay, we'll withdraw our forces and India can keep all its forces". That was a screw up by the UNSC which they corrected in UN resolution 98.

Pakistan supported a plebiscite with India and Pakistan as an option. No where does it say Pakistan opposed Independence as an option. If that was there, Pakistan would've supported that too. But the UN resolutions are strictly for action by India and Pakistan.

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## Patrician

Asim Aquil said:


> No it means Pakistan supported giving Kashmiris a democratic right to choose between India and Pakistan so that we won't have to fight a war instead. Remember that the UN resolutions were triggered by a ceasefire that India initiated, after Pakistan had taken the area which forms Azad Kashmir now.
> 
> It doesn't mean Pakistan was against it... *Perhaps it never came up*... Perhaps India was against it? I can make up stuff too. Stick to facts that are there in black and white.



Cmon Asim, please please do not try to justify a strategic mistake of the then GoP (just like the then GoI made by taking the issue to UNSC).

Hari Singh was shouting from rooftops for independent kashmir and you want us to convince it never came up??

Now don't say 'India also never accepted it' we are not discussing here what GoI did. We are discussing what GoP did remember!

Cmon Asim, you can do better than that. Why are you so embarrassed of calling a spade a spade?


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## Awesome

Patrician said:


> Cmon Asim, please please do not try to justify a strategic mistake of the then GoP (just like the then GoI made by taking the issue to UNSC).
> 
> Hari Singh was shouting from rooftops for independent kashmir and you want us to convince it never came up??
> 
> Now don't say 'India also never accepted it' we are not discussing here what GoI did. We are discussing what GoP did remember!
> 
> Cmon Asim, you can do better than that. Why are you so embarrassed of calling a spade a spade?


You mean I'm embarrassed because you tried to peddle your imaginary history without any basis in fact? Iss hamam mein sab nangay hongay, but you've been caught with your pants down on this occassion.

Please tell me when did Pakistan oppose the independence option? UNSC gave the resolutions, India and Pakistan HAVE to accept it.

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## somebozo

Patrician said:


> So you mean to say such secularism can exist in turkey and Pakistan but not in India!
> 
> 'Holier than thou' are we?



seeing is beliving.

in any event Pakistan or Turkey are not birth place of islam. 
No need for a nehru debate here twisting logic and facts!


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## Patrician

Asim Aquil said:


> The UNSC passes the resolution, not Pakistan.
> 
> *India and Pakistan MUST obey*. You think Pakistan would've itself said "Oh its okay, we'll withdraw our forces and India can keep all its forces". That was a screw up by the UNSC which they corrected in UN resolution 98.
> 
> Pakistan supported a plebiscite with India and Pakistan as an option. No where does it say Pakistan opposed Independence as an option. If that was there, Pakistan would've supported that too. But the UN resolutions are strictly for action by India and Pakistan.



*Asim, here is the text of res. 98. Please show me the word 'must'.*


*RESOLUTION 98 (1952) ADOPTED BY THE SECURITY COUNCIL AT ITS 611TH MEETING ON 23 DECEMBER, 1952. (DOCUMENT NO. S/2883, DATED THE 24TH DECEMBER, 1952).

THE SECURITY COUNCIL,

Recalling its resolutions, 91 (1951) of 30 March 1951, its decision of 30 April 1951 and its resolution 96 (1951) of 10 November 1951,

Further Recalling the provisions of the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan resolutions of 13 August 1948, and 5 January 1949, which were accepted by the Governments of India and Pakistan and which provided that the question of the accession of the State of Jammu and Kashmir to India or Pakistan would be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite conducted under the auspices of the United Nations,

Having received the third report, dated 22 April 1952, and the fourth report, dated 16 September 1952, of the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan;

Endorses the general principles on which the United Nations Representative has sought to bring about agreement between the Governments of India and Pakistan;

2. Notes with gratification that the United Nations Representative has reported that the Governments of India and Pakistan have accepted all but two of the paragraphs of his twelve-point proposals;

3. Notes that agreement on a plan of demilitarization of the State of Jammu and Kashmir has not been reached because the Governments of India and Pakistan have not agreed on the whole of paragraph 7 of the twelve-point proposals;

4. Urges the Governments of India and Pakistan to enter into immediate negotiations under the auspices of the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan in order to reach agreement on the specific number of forces to remain on each side of the cease-fire line at the end of the period of demilitarization, this number to be between 3,000 and 6,000 armed forces remaining on the Pakistan side of the cease-fire line and between 12,000 and 18,000 armed forces remaining on the India side of the cease-fire line, as suggested by the United Nations Representative in his proposals of 16 July 1952, such specific numbers to be arrived at bearing in mind the principles or criteria contained in paragraph 7 of the United Nations Representative's proposal of 4 September 1952;

5. Records its gratitude to the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan for the great efforts which he has made to achieve a settlement and requests him to continue to make his services available to the Governments of India and Pakistan to this end;

6. Requests the Governments of India and Pakistan to report to the Security Council not later than thirty days from the date of the adoption of this resolution;

7. Requests the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan to keep the Security Council informed of any progress.

*The Security Council voted on this resolution on 23-12-1952 with the following result:-

In favor: **Brazil, **Chile, China, France, **Greece, **Netherlands, **Turkey, U.K. and U.S.A.

Against: None.

Abstaining: U.S.S.R.

** Non-Permanent Members of the Security Council,

One Member (Pakistan) did not participate in the voting.


http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc23dec52.htm

Remember, this post was in itself a digression from the topic.

We are not discussing what GoI, GoP must do.

We are discussing 'Why did GoP got 'Independence' option removed?'


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## T-Faz

Read this from Time Magazine:



> By January 1949, the U.N. succeeded in drawing a cease-fire line that gave a third of Kashmir to Pakistan and two thirds to India. *Four times since, the U.N. has ordered that a plebiscite be held to determine the wishes of the people of Kashmir. Though Jawaharlal Nehru once vowed to "abide by the will of the Kashmiri people," India has always found reasons to avoid holding the referendum. Ex-Defense Minister Krishna Menon has bluntly explained why India opposes the plebiscite: "Because we would lose it." The popular Moslem leader, Sheik Abdullah, first supported union with India. When he changed his mind, the Indians clapped him in jail.*



Asia: Ending the Suspense - TIME

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## Patrician

T-Faz said:


> Read this from Time Magazine:
> 
> 
> 
> Asia: Ending the Suspense - TIME



Dear T-faz.

This is nothing new.

I've accepted it a thousand times over on  that India is acting on its interests and Pakistan is acting on its own interests.

We are no saints. Neither are you.

I hope you do keep that in mind.


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## Patrician

somebozo said:


> seeing is beliving.
> 
> in any event Pakistan or Turkey are not birth place of islam.
> No need for a nehru debate here twisting logic and facts!



What a stupid logic is that? You need 'birth certificate' to be secular?


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## EjazR

*Women in Kashmir trained in self-defence - Oneindia News*

Rajouri (Jammu and Kashmir), Sep 4 (ANI): A special camp was organized by the Indian Army in Jammu and Kashmir's Rajouri District on Friday to train
women in the art of self-defence and use of firearms.

Buzz up!
The camp organized by Indian troops in the border area, aims at enabling women and girls to defend themselves against attacks by terrorists.


"All the women of the region should learn how to handle and use a gun. This is to ensure their own safety
and the safety of their loved ones from the rising extremism and militancy in the valley," said Ayesha Parveen, one of the many young trainees at the camp.

"After the training, I feel confident that even if I do not have my gun, I can disarm a militant and use his own weapon against him," she added.

Inspired by Jammu's brave heart and winner of country's second highest peace-time gallantry award, Kirti Chakra, Rukhsana Kousar, the other girls too want to get trained in self-defence and the use of weapons to strike back at the ultras.

"I am confident that I can defeat any militant who wishes to harm me or my family. My family members are also very happy that I am receiving the training as it enables me to defend myself from any untoward incident," said Sumaiyya Khanam, another volunteer trainee at the camp.

Rukhsana along with her brother, Aijaz, shot to limelight after eliminating Pakistani terrorist Abu Osama in Kalsian area of Shadara Sharief in Rajouri on September 27, 2009, with an axe and the terrorist's own AK-series rifle and won applaud and accolade from various quarters. (ANI)

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## T-Faz

Patrician said:


> Dear T-faz.
> 
> This is nothing new.
> 
> I've accepted it a thousand times over on  that India is acting on its interests and Pakistan is acting on its own interests.
> 
> We are no saints. Neither are you.
> 
> I hope you do keep that in mind.



Lets act in the interest of Kashmiri's and see what they want.

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## Markus

Patrician said:


> What a stupid logic is that? You need 'birth certificate' to be secular?



I like the way you play with words.


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## Awesome

Without participating in the digression, I'd like to point out this interesting fact from the UN SC resolution you posted again... Pakistan who was even on the UNSC at that time didn't vote.



Patrician said:


> *One Member (Pakistan) did not participate in the voting*.






> http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc23dec52.htm
> 
> Remember, this post was in itself a digression from the topic.
> 
> We are not discussing what GoI, GoP must do.
> 
> We are discussing 'Why did GoP got 'Independence' option removed?'



The fundamentals of your question are wrong... I'm asking *When* did GoP got 'Independence' option removed?

If they never did, then your entire Raam kahani gets shelved.

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## Patrician

T-Faz said:


> Lets act in the interest of Kashmiri's and see what they want.



If by 'interest' you mean independence/plebiscite/accession to Pakistan then my dear T-Faz, Pakistan didn't act in 'interest' of kashmiris in 1947 (read: That is the whole point of this thread)

If by 'interest' you mean peace and real interest then the only only solution plausible in current geo-political scenario is posted by me in the 'future of kashmir' thread. You may refer to my posts on the last few pages.


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## somebozo

Patrician said:


> *The Security Council voted on this resolution on 23-12-1952 with the following result:-
> 
> In favor: **Brazil, **Chile, China, France, **Greece, **Netherlands, **Turkey, U.K. and U.S.A.
> 
> Against: None.
> 
> Abstaining: U.S.S.R.
> 
> ** Non-Permanent Members of the Security Council,
> 
> One Member (Pakistan) did not participate in the voting.
> 
> 
> http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc23dec52.htm
> 
> Remember, this post was in itself a digression from the topic.
> 
> We are not discussing what GoI, GoP must do.
> 
> We are discussing 'Why did GoP got 'Independence' option removed?'



I dont see India voting here too..
Pakistan might have done it for reasons of impartiality and India with its own reservations. Sides squared now..please move along!


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## Patrician

Markus said:


> I like the way you play with words.



I'm being honest. Plain and simple.


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## Markus

Patrician said:


> I'm being honest. Plain and simple.



Hey, I have never said you are dishonest. You are taking it in the wrong sense dude.

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## Awesome

Patrician said:


> If by 'interest' you mean independence/plebiscite/accession to Pakistan then my dear T-Faz, Pakistan didn't act in 'interest' of kashmiris in 1947 (read: That is the whole point of this thread)
> 
> If by 'interest' you mean peace and real interest then the only only solution plausible in current geo-political scenario is posted by me in the 'future of kashmir' thread. You may refer to my posts on the last few pages.


Pakistan wants Kashmir to be free, you should be thanking us that we're giving you an extra option otherwise if there is a plebiscite, we'll win.

Hurry up and take this option and send us a thank you note. This way its a "Na tera, na mera" solution and doesn't hurt India's ego.

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## Patrician

Markus said:


> Hey, I have never said you are dishonest. You are taking it in the wrong sense dude.



Naaaaaaa. Just chill. 

P.S. I'm just chilling on a weekend. Just enjoyed my kingfisher strong!

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## Patrician

Asim Aquil said:


> Pakistan wants Kashmir to be free, you should be thanking us that we're giving you an extra option otherwise if there is a plebiscite, we'll win.
> 
> Hurry up and take this option and send us a thank you note. This way its a "Na tera, na mera" solution and doesn't hurt India's ego.



LoL...Thank you...ha ha ha. 

My question still remains unanswered.


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## Markus

Patrician said:


> Naaaaaaa. Just chill.
> 
> P.S. I'm just chilling on a weekend. Just enjoyed my kingfisher strong!



Good for you. My tequila time is still 3 hours away.

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## Patrician

somebozo said:


> I dont see India voting here too..
> Pakistan might have done it for reasons of impartiality and India with its own reservations. Sides squared now..please move along!



AWWWWWWWWW...Poor Pakistan....Evil India.....Cmon Man Post something sensible.


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## lalluyadav

Asim Aquil said:


> Pakistan wants Kashmir to be free, you should be thanking us that we're giving you an extra option otherwise if there is a plebiscite, we'll win.
> 
> Hurry up and take this option and send us a thank you note. This way its a "Na tera, na mera" solution and doesn't hurt India's ego.





> Pakistan wants Kashmir to be free, you should be thanking us that we're giving you an extra option otherwise if there is a plebiscite, we'll win.



we never asked to give any option to pakistan,we made kashmir as an integral part.



> *Kashmir inalienable part of India*
> 
> Mumbai: Expressing concern at China's remarks about the term ''India-controlled Kashmir'', External Affairs Minister SM Krishna has said that China must respect the sensitivities New Delhi has towards Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> Talking to reporters here on the sidelines of the Consultative Committee meeting of the Ministry of External Affairs (MEA), Krishna said: "I hope the Chinese government will have respect for our sensitivities on Jammu and Kashmir."
> 
> "Kashmir is an inalienable part of India and we have noted with great concern that the comments made by the spokesperson from China. We have advised our Ambassador to take it up and express our concerns," he added.
> 
> Earlier, he visited the iconic Taj Hotel, one of the targets during the November 26, 2008, terror attacks.
> 
> Describing the Taj Hotel as a landmark not only for Mumbai but for the entire country, Krishna said: "We met here to convey out respects to those who lost lives in the 26/11 gory tragedy."
> 
> "We have gathered here to convey and pay our respects to all those who lost their lives in that gory tragedy of 26/11. That is a grim reminder to the entire world of what terror is all about. On behalf of the Members of Parliament, I would like to convey our deep sense of sadness and sorrow, and our condolences to the bereaved families," he added.





> Hurry up and take this option and send us a thank you note. This way its a "Na tera, na mera" solution and doesn't hurt India's ego



no thks,it's not ego.we r concerned abt our integrity as explained above


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## EjazR

*Life returning to normal in Kashmir - India - DNA*

Life in the Kashmir Valley was today limping back to normal with people defying the strike called by the separatists.

Curfew has been lifted from the entire Valley but prohibitory orders have been imposed in Anantnag and Pulwama district towns as a precautionary measure.

Although the hardline faction of Hurriyat Conference led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani has called for a strike today, hundreds of private vehicles could be seen plying on the roads in Srinagar city and other major towns of the valley.

*This is for the first time during the three-month-long agitation, spearheaded by the hardline separatists, that people in such large numbers have defied the call for strike.*

However, shops and other commercial establishments were closed. Schools and higher educational institutions were also closed due to lack of public transport.

Work in the city courts resumed as proceedings in all matters matters barring criminal cases were conducted.

The lawyers in the valley have been on a strike since the arrest of Kashmir Bar Association president Mian Abdul Qayoom in July. However, some lawyers, not affiliated with the Bar, are attending courts.

Elsewhere, situation across the Kashmir Valley was normal so far with no untoward incident reported from anywhere.

The Valley has been rocked by violence following the death of a teenager on June 11 after he was allegedly hit by a tear smoke shell near Rajouri Kadal area of the old city.

Street protests in the Valley have claimed 65 lives so far.

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## Trac

somebozo said:


> Umm no we dont..
> They have a seprate flag, their own para-millitary forces, seprate identity cards and passports. If a Kashmiri wants to come and establish business in mainland Pakistan it will be treated under forigen investment rules. Mainland Pakistanis are not permitted to buy and sell property in Azad kashmir though this rule if often over run due to intermingled family releations. Kashmiris have intermingled family releations with people of Punjab and KhyberPuktunkwa and a deep cultural integration dating thousands of years. So how they can fall under indian influence which has a hindi culture??
> 
> Tattoo it in your blind eyes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flag of Azad Kashmir.



*Just read this then you are not able say anything 

This is from neutral source *

*Political Rights and Civil Liberties*

The political rights of the residents of Pakistani-administered Kashmir remain severely limited. Neither the Northern Areas nor Azad Kashmir has representation in Pakistan's national Parliament. The Northern Areas are directly administered by the Pakistani government under the Legal Framework Order of 1994; the region is not included in the Pakistani constitution and has no constitution of its own, meaning there is no fundamental guarantee of civil rights, democratic representation, or the separation of powers. Executive authority is vested in the minister for Kashmir affairs, a civil servant appointed by Islamabad. A 36-seat Northern Areas Legislative Council (NALC)  of which 24 seats are filled through direct elections and six each are reserved for women and technocrats from each district  serves in an advisory capacity and has no authority to change laws or control revenue. Elections to the NALC were held in 2004, with independent candidates and representatives of national political parties winning seats. In October 2007, Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf announced a package of reforms that would change the NALC into the Northern Areas Legislative Assembly, devolving fiscal and legislative powers to locally elected politicians. The package would also allow for the election of a chief executive accountable to the assembly, but it would maintain federal control over the judiciary and the top executive post of "chairman." The region would continue to be administered under the Legal Framework Order rather than a constitutional framework like in Azad Kashmir, thus still falling short of compliance with a 1999 Supreme Court ruling on the issue. At year's end, Pakistan's broader political crisis cast doubt on the future of the proposed reforms.

Azad Kashmir has an interim constitution, an elected unicameral assembly, a prime minister, and a president who is elected by the legislative assembly. Both the president and the assembly serve five-year terms. Of the 49 assembly seats, 41 are filled through direct elections and eight are reserved seats (five for women and one each for representatives of overseas Kashmiris, technocrats, and religious leaders). However, Pakistan exercises considerable control over the structures of government and electoral politics. Islamabad's approval is required to pass legislation, and the minister for Kashmir affairs handles the daily administration of the state and controls the budget. The Pakistani military retains a guiding role on issues of politics and governance.

As detailed by Human Rights Watch (HRW) in a 2006 report on the region, individuals and political parties who do not support Kashmir's accession to Pakistan are barred from participating in the political process, standing for election, taking a job with any government institution, or accessing educational institutions. At least 60 proindependence candidates who belonged to the JKLF, the APNA, and smaller political parties were barred from participating in the July 2006 Azad Kashmir legislative assembly elections. Overall, HRW noted that the election process was flawed and "greeted with widespread charges of poll rigging by opposition political parties and independent analysts." However, unlike the 2001 elections, the polls featured few instances of physical violence and harassment  aside from threats  against candidates or their supporters, possibly because of the greater international presence in the wake of the earthquake. In general, antiaccession parties and individuals are subject to surveillance, harassment, and sometimes imprisonment by Pakistani intelligence and security services.

In 2007, the political crisis in Pakistan reverberated in Kashmir. Chaudhry Majeed, the PPP president for Azad Kashmir, and other party activists were briefly detained in November following Musharraf's declaration of a state of emergency, with some placed under house arrest for 30 days. In December, demonstrators clashed with police, burned tires, and blocked roads in antigovernment protests after the assassination of PPP leader and former prime minister Benazir Bhutto, but there were no reported injuries.

Azad Kashmir receives a large amount of financial aid from the Pakistani government, especially following the 2005 earthquake, but successive administrations have been tainted by corruption and incompetence. A lack of official accountability has been identified as a key factor in the poor socioeconomic development of both Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas. Pakistani-controlled Kashmir was not rated separately in Transparency International's 2007 Corruption Perceptions Index.

The Pakistani government uses the constitution and other laws to curb freedom of speech on a variety of subjects, including the status of Kashmir and incidents of sectarian violence. In recent years, authorities have banned several local newspapers from publishing and have detained or otherwise harassed Kashmiri journalists. In March 2007, the government suspended its advertisements in publications by the Dawn English-language media group after it reported on a possible resurgence of official support for militants in Kashmir. In April 2007, Dawn reported that the editor and publisher of the banned monthly Kargil International magazine were indicted on sedition and defamation charges for publishing a proindependence article in 2004. In addition to pressure and threats from the authorities, journalists have been known to face harassment and attacks from nonstate actors, though no such incidents were reported in 2007. During the state of emergency imposed on the rest of Pakistan in November 2007, cable operators in Kashmir were instructed to suspend broadcasts of most national and international news channels.

Internet access is not usually restricted but remains confined to urban centers. Deliberately limited telephone and mobile phone access has been expanded in the wake of the 2005 earthquake. The presence of foreign media and aid organizations has also helped to partially open up a tightly controlled information environment. Books that do not adequately adhere to a proaccession stance are regularly banned, according to HRW.

Pakistan is an Islamic republic, and there are numerous restrictions on religious freedom. Religious minorities also face unofficial economic and societal discrimination and are occasionally subject to violent attack. Shia Muslims, who form the majority of the population in the Northern Areas, include a large number of Ismailis, a group that follows the Aga Khan. Sectarian strife between Shiites and the increasing number of Sunni Muslims (many of whom are migrants from elsewhere in Pakistan) first became a concern in 1988 and continues to be a problem. In 2005, several waves of sectarian violence killed almost 100 people and led to a month-long curfew. Sporadic attacks continued to take place during 2006, including the destruction by fire of an Ismaili place of worship, but no violent incidents were reported in 2007.

Freedoms of association and assembly are restricted. The constitution of Azad Kashmir forbids individuals and political parties from taking part in activities that are prejudicial to the ideology of the state's accession to Pakistan. As such, police in recent years have regularly suppressed antigovernment demonstrations, sometimes violently. In 2005, at least 10 people were killed when police opened fire on Shia student protesters, and lengthy curfews were imposed to prevent demonstrators from assembling. In 2007, police clashed with demonstrators on several occasions, but there were no reports of deaths or lengthy detentions. In October, police baton-charged dozens of people demonstrating against a proposal to move the capital of Azad Kashmir from Muzafarrabad. Three people were arrested but released the same day. In November, police blocked activists of the proindependence APNA who were protesting in favor of truck service across the LOC from entering a town near the ceasefire line as planned.

Nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) are generally able to operate freely. However, the Aga Khan Rural Support Program  run by the Aga Khan Foundation (AKF), an international development organization that focuses on Ismaili communities worldwide  has been subjected to harassment and violence. According to the U.S. State Department's 2007 Report on International Religious Freedom, Sunni extremist groups have in recent years vandalized AKF-funded schools and health clinics and have attacked AKF personnel, although no such attacks were reported in 2007. The situation for labor rights in Pakistani-controlled Kashmir is similar to that in Pakistan.

The judiciary of the Northern Areas consists of district courts, a chief court, and since 2005, a separate court of appeals. With appointments based on three-year contracts subject to discretionary renewal, the judiciary is largely subservient to the executive. Azad Kashmir has its own system of local magistrates and high courts, whose heads are appointed by the president of Azad Kashmir. Appeals are adjudicated by the Supreme Court of Pakistan. There are also Islamic judges who handle criminal cases concerning Islamic law. In April 2007, local lawyers protested the appointment to the Azad Kashmir Supreme Court of Justice Mohammad Reaz Akhtar Chaudhry over the court's most senior judge, Justice Manzoor Hussain Gilani, arguing that it violated constitutional conventions and rules of seniority. The newspaper Dawn reported that the Azad Kashmir Supreme Court rejected a petition by the lawyers challenging the appointment and ordered that future petitions of a similar nature not be entertained by the courts.

According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP), Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) operates throughout Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas and engages in extensive surveillance (particularly of proindependence groups and the press), as well as arbitrary arrests and detentions. In some instances, those detained by the ISI, the police, or the security forces are tortured, and several cases of death in custody have been reported. Impunity for acts of torture and other mistreatment of civilians by the military and intelligence services remains the norm. The territory also continues to be governed by the colonial-era Frontier Crimes Regulations, under which residents are required to report to local police stations once a month.

A number of Islamist militant groups, including al-Qaeda, operate from bases in Pakistani-administered Kashmir with the tacit permission of Pakistani intelligence. Tension between Islamist, pro-Pakistan groups and the proindependence Kashmiri groups  as well as some local residents  has reportedly intensified in recent years. In June 2007, a land dispute broke out between villagers in Azad Kashmir and the Islamist organization Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JUD), identified by the United States as a terrorist organization. Following the alleged torture of two men and the killing of a 17-year-old boy by JUD members, a mob burned down a temporary hospital the group had established following the 2005 earthquake.

Several hundred families displaced by shelling between Indian and Pakistani forces around the LOC prior to the 2003 ceasefire remain unable to return to their homes and have largely been excluded from earthquake-related assistance schemes. In addition, the Azad Kashmir government manages relief camps for refugees from Indian-administered Kashmir, the bulk of whom arrived after the situation on the Indian side worsened in 1989. Many more of the refugees (roughly 1.5 million) live elsewhere in Azad Kashmir and throughout Pakistan.

The status of women in Pakistani-administered Kashmir is similar to that of women in Pakistan. While the HRCP reports that honor killings and **** occur less frequently than in other areas of Pakistan, domestic violence, forced marriage, and other forms of abuse continue to be issues of concern. Women are not granted equal rights under the law, and their educational opportunities and choice of marriage partner remain circumscribed. In May 2007, the United Nations and other aid agencies temporarily suspended their work after suspected Islamists mounted an arson attack on the home of two aid workers; the organizations had received warnings against hiring women.

UNHCR | Refworld | Freedom in the World 2008 - Kashmir [Pakistan]


*
This is the reality of so called Azad Kashmir*


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## Patrician

Asim Aquil said:


> Without participating in the digression, *I'd like to point out* this interesting fact from the UN SC resolution you posted again... Pakistan who was even on the UNSC at that time didn't vote.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The fundamentals of your question are wrong... I'm asking *When* did GoP got 'Independence' option removed?
> 
> If they never did, then your entire *Raam kahani gets shelved*.



LoL Asim...it was you who brought res. 98 (specifically) into this discussion.

Moreover, if you didn't vote, and by the tone of your reply I can validly surmise that you disregard this particular res. 98, why do you shout about these resolutions anyway?

GoI doesn't care about UNSC Res. GoP does and hence GoP must play by the rules of these very res. it proclaims to uphold.

Don't turn logic on its head my friend.

I guess then this entire Ram Kahani of UN res. gets shelved. Now don't be selective. Please don't say "Pakistan =accepts all UNSC res. except 98". That'll be like giving a whole new dimension (on a spacetime scale) to the debate.


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## Patrician

Guys how do I edit the title of the thread? There's a grammatical error.

It should be 'Why did GoP *get* 'Independence' option removed'


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## Trac

Already Posted 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/71589-women-kashmir-trained-self-defence.html#post1113694


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## somebozo

And IOK is soo much better..ohh god..heavens on earth..the stones feels like blessings!

happy now!


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## Patrician

somebozo said:


> And IOK is soo much better..ohh god..heavens on earth..the stones feels like blessings!
> 
> happy now!



Troll Alert


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## mjnaushad

^^^ Mods will do it..

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## Trac

somebozo said:


> And IOK is soo much better..ohh god..heavens on earth..the stones feels like blessings!
> 
> happy now!



Man why you are crying ... 
Just a Little part of reality and start crying 

*If you really care about Kashmir and their people so start a separate thread about Azad Kashmr we will show the difference in two.

But i dnt think you have guts to face reality *


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## RPK

somebozo said:


> And IOK is soo much better..ohh god..heavens on earth..the stones feels like blessings!
> 
> happy now!




Yes it is so much better then P O K


http://www.mospi.gov.in/17 Economic Census_J&K.pdf


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## Awesome

Patrician said:


> LoL Asim...it was you who brought res. 98 (specifically) into this discussion.
> 
> Moreover, if you didn't vote, and by the tone of your reply I can validly surmise that you disregard this particular res. 98, why do you shout about these resolutions anyway?
> 
> GoI doesn't care about UNSC Res. GoP does and hence GoP must play by the rules of these very res. it proclaims to uphold.
> 
> Don't turn logic on its head my friend.
> 
> I guess then this entire Ram Kahani of UN res. gets shelved. Now don't be selective. Please don't say "Pakistan =accepts all UNSC res. except 98". That'll be like giving a whole new dimension (on a spacetime scale) to the debate.



It's better if you stop presupposing things based "tones" and stick to facts. Next you'll say at the UNSC meetings Pakistani eyebrows were raised or lowered and that means this n that. Please stick to something you can state that is backed with actual evidence. 

Pakistan accepts all UNSC resolutions on Kashmir- UNSC resolution 98 included. But the funny thing is you still haven't backed up your statement with any source that Pakistan got the independence option removed.

"Removed" is a past tense verb. Its an action word. Please prove to me that this action was ever performed...

It's like asking the defendant in a murder trial "Why did you kill so and so"... First you got to prove that the defendant even killed that person.

You question is as absurd as India's entire position on Kashmir.

Again, note, Pakistan is not demanding the Independence option as per the UNSC resolutions, we're demanding plebiscite as stipulated in the UNSC resolutions. But this is a special offer from us to you, a favor, a generosity, that we're saying "Ok don't lose at the plebiscite and face the embarrassment of giving us Kashmir, we'll call it a day and let the Kashmiris go independent".

Either you play by UNSC, or you play be the compromise. From our perspective we can demand that we stick to the UNSC resolution and why introduce the independence option? But we're offering something to you, that we know is also acceptable to the Kashmiris, totally out of the goodness of our hearts.

Take it or return to the UNSC demand of choosing between India and Pakistan. Your choice.

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## Creder

SRINAGAR, IndiaA little-known Kashmiri separatist leader is spurring stone-throwing protests against India with tactics such as YouTube recruitment videos and protest calendars published in local media, fostering protracted violence that is bedeviling New Delhi.

In an interview, the leader, Masarat Alam Bhat, 39 years old, said these protests would intensify after the Muslim holiday of Eid-ul-Fitr, which this year falls around Sept. 10, unless India offers major concessions to appease protesters who want Kashmir to be its own nation or part of Pakistan.

Separatist demonstrations erupted this summer in the Indian-held portion of Kashmir, an area that was split between India and Pakistan in 1947 but that remains claimed in its entirety by both. Indian security forces countered violently, with more than 60 civilians killed since mid-June.

The government says publicly the protests are either backed by Pakistan, which has fought two wars with India over Muslim-majority Kashmir, or are spontaneous and leaderless. But Mr. Bhat conveys a picture of a movement that is home-grown and highly organized.

"We are hopeful and sure we will win this war," Mr. Bhat, who rarely speaks to media, said from a location in Srinagar, the summer capital of India's Jammu and Kashmir state. He said he changes location every few hours to avoid arrest on charges of inciting violence. He said he isn't backed by Pakistan.

Mr. Bhat uses the Internet to spread his call to rise up for secession; in July, he made an impassioned video appeal, posted on YouTube, for Indian troops to leave the valley.

Perhaps his most significant innovation has been a "Protest Calendar" published in the local media that stipulates days for protests and closures of schools and shops. The calendar, which has largely been adhered to by both rural and urban Kashmiris, has brought the valley to a virtual economic standstill.

"People are all against India now. They will do anything," he said. "They will sacrifice anything."

The protests have largely been low-tech, with mostly young people turning out and throwing stones at Indian forces. No Indian security personnel have died, marking something of a public-relations victory for the protesters.

"Mass mobilization has happened before but never so systematic, never for so long and never so widespread. He's strategized it," says Sheikh Showkat Hussain, a law professor at the University of Kashmir.

View Full Image

Associated Press
Kashmiri Muslims gather to listen to a separatist leader Friday in Charar Sharief, about 25 miles from Srinagar in India's Jammu and Kashmir state.

Kashmir's new inspector general of police, S.M. Sahai, says authorities are seeking Mr. Bhat for playing a central role in the protests. He says he believes Mr. Bhat's core supporters, unemployed youths aged under 25 years old, have intimidated other Kashmiris to shut down schools and shops but that many are now tired of the closures.

A senior Indian Home Ministry official said Mr. Bhat was more radicaland has a larger support basethan other separatist leaders. "He represents the extreme form of Islamism in Kashmir," the official said, adding that his tactics will be fruitless: "We're not giving in to threats. There's no chance."

Mr. Bhata science graduate who speaks fluent English and wears a long, unkempt beard in the Islamic fashionis the leader of a separatist party called the Muslim League. He is also the deputy of the hard-line faction of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, a separatist group with conservative, Islamist leanings that rejects talks with India on Kashmir's status.

His group split off years ago from more moderate members, who back talks with India. Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, the leader of the more moderate splinter group, says the conservative movement has broad influence. "He's become an icon, a Robin Hood-type figure," Mr. Farooq says.

But Mr. Farooq says Mr. Bhat's non-stop strikes and other methods have filled young people with unrealistic expectations for independence. He also says Mr. Bhat has attempted to portray Kashmir as a religious battle between the local Muslim-majority population and Hindu-majority India. "He took a radical line in terms of Kashmir being an Islamic issue," he says. "We see it as a political problem."

The issue of Kashmir is crucial to regional peace and even the U.S.-led war in Afghanistan.

During the 1990s, more than 60,000 people died in a struggle between militants, trained and funded by Pakistan, and security forces. India largely stamped out the rebellion using hundreds of thousands of troops.

India maintains more than half a million security forces in its part of Kashmir, creating a sense of military occupation. The U.S. believes the tensions are a major reason Pakistan doesn't deploy more troops to fight Taliban militants on its Afghanistan border.

In 2008, elections in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir, for which two-thirds of the electorate turned out, led to hope that separatist tensions had declined. But separatist parties, including Mr. Bhat's, boycotted those polls, saying they were illegitimate. The failure of the pro-India state government to push through election promises, most importantly a demilitarization of Kashmir, boosted support for separatist politicians.

Mr. Bhat came to the fore just before those elections as a spokesman for separatist parties during mass protests in mid-2008 against the transfer of Kashmiri land for use by Hindu pilgrims. Police fired on those protests, killing scores of people.

Mr. Bhat became active in student politics in the late 1980s, after graduating from Srinagar's top Protestant missionary school. He said he has spent 17 years of the past two decades in jail for separatist activities but never fought as a militant. Police and Indian state officials confirm that account, saying he has been arrested only for unrest.

He was released from his latest stint in jail just before June 11, the day police fired tear gas shells to disburse a separatist demonstration in downtown Srinagar, killing a college student and igniting the current round of violence. Mr. Bhat quickly began organizing protests.

He acknowledges that he favors Kashmir ceding to Pakistan, an Islamic state, and believes the Quran should serve as the basis for law in the territory. Mr. Sahai, the police chief, says he has evidence Mr. Bhat's Muslim League receives funding and support from Pakistan-based Islamist groups. Mr. Bhat denies he has ties to Pakistani-based militant organizations or other global Islamist groups. He says he respects non-Muslims.

"We are not having an international agenda. We are not against America. We are against Indian occupation," says Mr. Bhat, sitting on the floor of a sparse room in a two-story brick house in Srinagar's old town, a warren of narrow lanes overlooked by a Mughal-era fort.

A supporter locks the door from outside. Mr. Bhat says he has been able to evade capture for three months because India's intelligence apparatus has broken down amid the protests. "If I'm at large it's because of the people," he says, speaking softly and averting his eyes.

Mr. Bhat says that for the current violence to stop, India must first agree that Kashmir is an international dispute and hold a plebiscite over the future of the territory. It must also take measures such as withdrawing troops and reforming a law that shields Indian security forces from prosecution for human-rights abuses.

The government has intimated in recent weeks it is willing to offer limited compromises, such as revisions to army-impunity laws and some troop draw-downs, but only after the current round of violence is quelled.

Write to Tom Wright at tom.wright@wsj.com or @TomWrightAsia

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## eastwatch

Politics apart, it may not be possible for India to take any steps on Kashmir that may jeopardise its own survival. Water MAY be the main issue behind Indian insistence on holding Kashmir. Kashmir is the main source of water to Pakistan, India and even Bangladesh. An independent Kashmir may take away the rights to water from India to a Pakistan-influenced Kashmir.

In case of Pakistan, the part of Kashmir it is holding is also giving it the land route to China. An independent Kashmir will force Pakistan to relnquish that right to connectivity.

An independent Kashmir, therefore, becomes a two-way sword that cuts both Pakistan and India. I just do not know if Pakistan has relinquished its Independent Kashmir option, or if Pakistan ever had accepted this as its policy. But, Pakistan, certainly wants not to relinquish its claim on Kashmir whatever may the colour of flag of today's Azaad Kashmir.


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## Patrician

Asim Aquil said:


> It's better if you stop presupposing things based "tones" and stick to facts. Next you'll say at the UNSC meetings Pakistani eyebrows were raised or lowered and that means this n that. Please stick to something you can state that is backed with actual evidence.



Fair enough 



Asim Aquil said:


> *Pakistan accepts all UNSC resolutions on Kashmir- UNSC resolution 98 included*.



So you do accept that 'independence' was, at least back then in 1947, not an option for kashmir because UN res. (backed by GoP) don't have any word such as 'independence'? Let's forget for a second that it is 2010. Go back a little in time, to 1947, and then answer my question.




Asim Aquil said:


> But the funny thing is *you still haven't backed up* your statement with any source that Pakistan got the independence option removed.



Ok let's make it ' India & Pakistan got 'independence' removed as an option. Will that be fine with you? I'm no sensitive. Are you?



Asim Aquil said:


> *Again, note, Pakistan is not demanding the Independence option as per the UNSC resolutions, we're demanding plebiscite as stipulated in the UNSC resolutions*.



You are giving conflicting replies my friend. On one hand you say "we don't want 'independence' option". On other hand you say "We want kashmiris to decide their future."

I'm sooooooo confused.


Oh wait!

You mean to say this "We want kashmiris to decide their future but we want them to join us"

That's nothing but what YOU just SAID!



Asim Aquil said:


> But this is a special offer from us to you, *a favor, a generosity*,



Thanks but no thanks. By the way, we are not talking about emotions or ethics here. We are talking about pure, hard facts. And dear friend, when it comes to hard fact, GoP's position is self-contradictory in itself.



Asim Aquil said:


> Take it or return to the UNSC demand of choosing between India and Pakistan. Your choice.



We are fine without UN. Again, thanks but no thanks.

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## HAIDER

India has cancelled defence exchanges with China after China refused a visa to a Kashmir-based general.

The Indian government said that China had to be sensitive to India's concerns, one of which is the disputed area of Kashmir.

As well as India and Pakistan, China also claims part of Kashmir.

Defence ties between China and India have remained tentative due to long-standing disputes and a lack of trust; the two fought a short war in 1962.

Indian Lt Gen BS Jaswal is responsible for Indian army operations in the Indian-administered state of Jammu and Kashmir.

He had hoped to travel to Beijing in August as part of a high-level exchange, but was denied a visa.
Old tensions

"While we value our exchanges with China, there must be sensitivity to each others' concerns. Our dialogue with China on these issues is ongoing," India's foreign ministry spokesman said in a statement.

The Times of India said the row had blocked the visit of Indian generals to China and another planned visit of Chinese generals to India.

The Indian foreign ministry noted that defence exchanges with China in recent years had proven "useful".

China and India fought a short border war in 1962. China is strongly critical of India for granting residence to the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama.

It is also close to India's traditional foe, Pakistan, with whom it is cooperating on military and missile development, cross-border infrastructure, and a deep-water port.

Last year, India protested against the Chinese practice of issuing visas to Kashmiris on separate pieces of paper, unlike the standard visas it offered to other Indians.

The disputed status of Kashmir has been behind two of the three wars between India and Pakistan; the two countries each administer part of Kashmir but claim the territory in full.

China maintains that part of Kashmir should be in Tibet, which it claims.

A separatist insurgency in Kashmir has killed tens of thousands of people since it began in 1989.

BBC News - India cancels China defence exchanges after visa row


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## DesiGuy

The date of article is *27 August 2010*



Should have checked the date before posting it ?


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## Isaq Khan

Chinese response to the presence of its troops in Gilgit-Baltistan, an area described by its foreign ministry as "northern part of Pakistan", *was curiously omitted in the official transcript, a day after it created a flutter in New Delhi.*

*However, when the Chinese ministry posted the official transcript of the briefing on its website,* hours after the meeting between Indian ambassador S Jaishankar and Chinese vice minister of foreign affairs where India conveyed its concerns over the Chinese "activities and presence" in ***, the related question and answer were surprisingly missing.

Chinese response on Gilgit issue missing from official transcript - India - DNA


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## gregarious

I didnt know that China also needed stake in Kashmir..this is news to me


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## Socrates

We need to make sure that such an uprising mustnt happen again by strengthening our intelligence activities in the region. Crack this seperatist ideology forever , by providing them good education and help them get rid of the clutches of religious fundamentalism.

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## lalluyadav

let china to claim.wat alone claims can do??


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## foxbat

With right political deals made behind the doors and so called separatists getting their price (not necessarily monetary), things are looking up..

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## bandit

Patrician said:


> It's been sooooooo many threads and sooooooooo many posts yet I'm still searching for an answer. Since I consider many pakistani friends here rational,hence respect your views, I have a question for all of you and would like to receive your views.
> 
> My dear friends,
> 
> I will put it in caps so that it doesn't escape your eyespan.
> 
> So here is my question,
> 
> WHY DID THE GOVERNMENT OF PAKISTAN INSIST, AND AS A RESULT SUCCEED, ON REMOVING 'INDEPENDENCE' AS AN OPTION FOR THE KASHMIRIS??? I'M SURE YOU ARE AWARE THAT IN CASE A REFERENDUM TAKES PLACE, 'INDIA' AND 'PAKISTAN' ARE THE ONLY OPTIONS AVAILABLE TO THEM AND THIS WAS DONE ON GOP's INSISTENCE. GOP AND MANY PAKISTANIS HERE ON PDF CHAMPION THE CAUSE OF THE KASHMIRIS' FREE WILL. MY DEAR FRIENDS, WHERE DID THIS CONCERN FOR THEIR FREE WILL GO THEN?
> 
> Please my dear friends, do reply to this simple query of mine.
> 
> Peace!



The official stand of the Pakistan government is that they support a plebiscite with only India or Pakistan as an option. There is no option for Independence, therefore all talk of supporting independence for Kashmir is mere rhetoric by Pakistanis with no substance at all.


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## foxbat

---answered----


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## Beskar

> *No one liners or semi-one liners!*
> *The rules have been put into place to make the forum act like a forum and not like a chat-session where you can just talk "blah" We are a serious forum and have been made to be a serious forum. If you post, put all yours thoughts and opinion in one post, if you ever make a mistake or would like to add more feel free to edit the post and do what you like to do.*



*Lallu* and *Desi **banned *for constantly posting stupid one-liners.

*Patrician, IndianJatt, MjNaushad*, avoid this behavior at all cost!


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## SpArK

*China withdraws reference to Gilgit-Baltistan as northern Pakistan*

Ananth Krishnan
BEIJING: A day after India voiced concerns to China over its reference to the disputed Gilgit-Baltistan region as a northern part of Pakistan, the Chinese government withdrew its statement from its official Xinhua news agency as well as from the Foreign Ministrys website.

The Chinese government had issued a statement on Xinhuas website late on Wednesday night, refuting a New York Times opinion piece which claimed that over 11,000 Chinese troops were present in the disputed region.

The statement referred to Gilgit-Baltistan, which India views as under illegal occupation by Pakistan and as an integral part of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, as northern Pakistan, triggering a protest from New Delhi.

But on Saturday, the statement appeared to have been removed from Xinhuas website. The link to the statement, headlined China refutes reports of sending troops to Pakistan, did not open.

The Chinese Foreign Ministry, which in a regular briefing on Thursday had repeated the reference to Gilgit-Baltistan as a northern part of Pakistan in response to a question on the presence of Chinese troops, deleted records of both the question and its response from its official transcript, which was posted on its website on Friday.

On Friday morning, Indian Ambassador to China S. Jaishankar had conveyed New Delhis concerns over Chinas recent moves in P0K in talks with Chinese Vice Foreign Minister Zhang Zhijun.

In the talks, Mr. Jaishankar raised questions over the presence of Chinese troops in P0K, and also protested Chinas reference to the disputed region as a part of northern Pakistan.

Mr. Zhang assured Indian officials that the troops present in the region were stationed there only for flood relief work and to provide humanitarian assistance.

The Hindu : Front Page : China withdraws reference to Gilgit-Baltistan as northern Pakistan

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## Awesome

Patrician said:


> So you do accept that 'independence' was, at least back then in 1947, not an option for kashmir because UN res. (backed by GoP) don't have any word such as 'independence'? Let's forget for a second that it is 2010. Go back a little in time, to 1947, and then answer my question.


You said "GoP got 'Independence' option removed'. I say nothing like that happened. You have failed to provide a single shred of evidence that they ever got the option removed. It was a UNSC decision.



> Ok let's make it ' India & Pakistan got 'independence' removed as an option. Will that be fine with you? I'm no sensitive. Are you?


Point to me where Pakistan said "Remove this option please".



> You are giving conflicting replies my friend. On one hand you say "we don't want 'independence' option". On other hand you say "We want kashmiris to decide their future."


Point to me where I said we don't want independence option? I can't help if you're being delusional and seeing words that have not been written and recalling historic events that have not happened.

Pakistan supports Kashmiri's right for self-determination, regardless of the UNSC resolutions. If India agrees to allow independence we can both approach the UNSC and get in a new resolution declaring Kashmir's independence. Thats a whole new story, when India, the sole objector to Kashmir's independence, removes its objections and allows Kashmiris to have its self-determination right exercised.



> I'm sooooooo confused.


Of course you are.



> Oh wait!
> 
> You mean to say this "We want kashmiris to decide their future but
> we want them to join us"



You're so bad at debates. You keep attributing words to me in quotes, things I've never said. I even gave a two step formula before on this very thread on how plebiscites can be conducted. Even simpler minds will not be confused with a basic concept of "What do Kashmiris want? Ask them".



> That's nothing but what YOU just SAID!


I wonder what you're smoking that compels you to see things I didn't say and then you back out of ever pointing to actual words, links and quotes.



> Thanks but no thanks. By the way, we are not talking about emotions or ethics here. We are talking about pure, hard facts. And dear friend, when it comes to hard fact, GoP's position is self-contradictory in itself.



I've deducted, you're either here to do a tamasha, you're better of weilding a dugdugi and going out on the streets to get the attention you seek. Your "pure hard facts" never came. Your claim that Pakistan got the Independence option removed was never proven, you multitude of quotes attributed to me, I never said. I think you should be referred to psychiatric help or else you're just seeking some attention.

I've given plenty of it today, and I think I want my 24 hours refunded. Don't waste the board's time.


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## Socrates

India should act smart from now on. Till now, apart from distributing the troops all over to counter the terrorists what did we do constructively to win the hearts of the people. Yes we have given lots of privileges to Kashmiris (like reservations in institutes across the country), but how many are even aware of that! We should give free and mandatory education to Kashmiris, make them feel that we all care about them. And from the times of next generations not even a single outcry of liberation would be heard!

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## SpArK

*Chinese response on Gilgit issue missing from official transcript*

Chinese response to the presence of its troops in Gilgit-Baltistan, an area described by its foreign ministry as "northern part of Pakistan", was curiously omitted in the official transcript, a day after it created a flutter in New Delhi.

Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Jiang Yu in her media briefing on Thursday, while refuting reports about the presence of Chinese troops in Gilgit-Baltistan area of Pakistan-Okupied Kashmir(P0K) referred to the areas as "northern part of Pakistan".

However, when the ministry posted the official transcript of the briefing on its website, hours after the meeting between Indian ambassador S Jaishankar and Chinese vice minister of foreign affairs where India conveyed its concerns over the Chinese "activities and presence" in P0K, the related question and answer were surprisingly missing.

"The story that China has deployed its military in northern part of Pakistan is totally groundless and out of ulterior purpose," she was quoted by her interpreter as saying in the regular briefing.

Jiang was asked about the reports of People's Liberation Army (PLA's) presence in Gilgit-Baltistan region of P0K.

Chinese officials address the media in Mandarin which is simultaneously translated by an interpreter through internal mike system for the foreign media.

There have been instances in the past when interpretation or translation of key words has not been accurate.

The transcript on the website, which is regarded as the most accurate version of the briefings for Beijing-based diplomats and foreign media, however carried her other remark terming Jammu and Kashmir as "Indian-held Kashmir".

Though awaited with renewed interest as it was expected to provide more clarity on China's stand on these critical bilateral issues, the absence of the reference to P0K once again brought to fore ambiguity to China's official stand on the Kashmir issue.


Chinese response on Gilgit issue missing from official transcript - India - DNA

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## SpArK

*Ammunition recovered from militant hideout in Jammu and Kashmir*

Security forces today busted a militant hideout and recovered from it ammunition and various items from it in Pirn Panjal area of Reasi district in Jammu and Kashmir, a defence spokesperson said here.

On a tip off, Rashtriya Rifle (RR) troops and police launched a joint operation in Pir Panjal hills and busted a natural cave type of hideout at Bakri Ki Nari area of Mahore tehsil, 160km from here, in Reasi district , this afternoon, he said.

The recoveries from the hideout included fifty rounds of AK rifle ammunition, one round of rocket propelled gun, one antenna and a transistor, he said.

However, there was no militant present in the hideout at the time of the raid, he added.


Ammunition recovered from militant hideout in Jammu and Kashmir - India - DNA


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## Awesome

T-Faz said:


> Read this from Time Magazine:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By January 1949, the U.N. succeeded in drawing a cease-fire line that gave a third of Kashmir to Pakistan and two thirds to India. *Four times since, the U.N. has ordered that a plebiscite be held to determine the wishes of the people of Kashmir. Though Jawaharlal Nehru once vowed to "abide by the will of the Kashmiri people," India has always found reasons to avoid holding the referendum. Ex-Defense Minister Krishna Menon has bluntly explained why India opposes the plebiscite: "Because we would lose it." The popular Moslem leader, Sheik Abdullah, first supported union with India. When he changed his mind, the Indians clapped him in jail.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asia: Ending the Suspense - TIME
Click to expand...


Just so that I justify my comment on why the Indians are the sole morally bankrupt party in the whole Kashmir issue, this post by T-Faz says it all.

It's very convenient for India to say "Iss hamam main sab hi nangay hain", but in reality its only India that needs to pull up its trousers.


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## somebozo

Thora sa chini bhaio ko bhe dey do zalimoo..ya akele akele poora he kha jao ge 
hindi-chini bhai bhai!!


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## Coltsfan

BENNY said:


> *Chinese response on Gilgit issue missing from official transcript*
> 
> Chinese response to the presence of its troops in Gilgit-Baltistan, an area described by its foreign ministry as "northern part of Pakistan", was curiously omitted in the official transcript, a day after it created a flutter in New Delhi.
> 
> Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Jiang Yu in her media briefing on Thursday, while refuting reports about the presence of Chinese troops in Gilgit-Baltistan area of Pakistan-Okupied Kashmir(P0K) referred to the areas as "northern part of Pakistan".
> 
> However, when the ministry posted the official transcript of the briefing on its website, hours after the meeting between Indian ambassador S Jaishankar and Chinese vice minister of foreign affairs where India conveyed its concerns over the Chinese "activities and presence" in P0K, the related question and answer were surprisingly missing.
> 
> "The story that China has deployed its military in northern part of Pakistan is totally groundless and out of ulterior purpose," she was quoted by her interpreter as saying in the regular briefing.
> 
> Jiang was asked about the reports of People's Liberation Army (PLA's) presence in Gilgit-Baltistan region of P0K.
> 
> Chinese officials address the media in Mandarin which is simultaneously translated by an interpreter through internal mike system for the foreign media.
> 
> There have been instances in the past when interpretation or translation of key words has not been accurate.
> 
> The transcript on the website, which is regarded as the most accurate version of the briefings for Beijing-based diplomats and foreign media, however carried her other remark terming Jammu and Kashmir as "Indian-held Kashmir".
> 
> Though awaited with renewed interest as it was expected to provide more clarity on China's stand on these critical bilateral issues, the absence of the reference to P0K once again brought to fore ambiguity to China's official stand on the Kashmir issue.
> 
> 
> Chinese response on Gilgit issue missing from official transcript - India - DNA



Lost in translation?

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## rajiv_kuin

Patriot said:


> Now that they cant blame protesters as terrorists they are running out of ideas hence coming with this crap.




Well... they are not called terrorist cause they are not terrorists... its as simple as that...


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## Pasban

Two dozen wounded in Kashmir clashes
Sat Sep 4, 2010 2:39PM






Paramilitary soldiers and police fire teargas at stone-throwing protesters.


Fresh violent clashes between protesters and government forces have left some two dozen people injured in the Indian-administered Kashmir.

On Friday, thousands of people defied a ban on protest marches, taking to the streets of Srinagar, Kashmir's main city and the neighboring district of Budgam as well as other major towns across the Muslim-majority valley.

At least five people have been wounded after police opened fire to disperse the protesters in the northern Baramulla town. Two of them were seriously wounded and therefore were rushed to a hospital in Srinagar.

In addition, 19 more people have been injured as Police fired teargas and used batons to end anti-government protests in several other cities of the region.

The region has been rocked by anti-government demonstrations for months -- despite rolling curfews. Government forces are struggling to contain the ongoing demonstrations in the region.

The region's influential separatist politicians Syed Ali Geelani, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Yasin Malik have led thousands in the disputed valley over the past weeks, after the police killed a teenage protester in early June.

They have threatened to continue the protests until India declares Kashmir an "international dispute" and releases all political prisoners.

About 65 Kashmiri protesters have been killed since June.

JR/PKH/MMN
PressTV - Two dozen wounded in Kashmir clashes

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## BATMAN

> About 65 Kashmiri protesters have been killed since June.


Now calculate it counting backward from 1948.


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## bandit

BATMAN said:


> Now calculate it counting backward from 1948.



Come back after you are finished counting, and I'll tell you why you are wrong.

Seems like Manmohan's orders of non-lethal means are being implemented, therefore no casualties and just wounded.


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## eastwatch

South Asian Media Net

Rocks, YouTube undergird J&K protests 
Sunday, September 05,2010 

SRINAGAR: A little-known Kashmiri separatist leader is spurring stone-throwing protests against India with tactics such as YouTube recruitment videos and protest calendars published in local media, fostering protracted violence that is bedeviling New Delhi.

In an interview, the leader, Masarat Alam Bhat, 39 years old, said these protests would intensify after the Muslim holiday of Eid-ul-Fitr, which this year falls around Sept. 10, unless India offers major concessions to appease protesters who want Kashmir to be its own nation or part of Pakistan.

Separatist demonstrations erupted this summer in the Indian-held portion of Kashmir, an area that was split between India and Pakistan in 1947 but that remains claimed in its entirety by both. Indian security forces countered violently, with more than 60 civilians killed since mid-June.

The government says publicly the protests are either backed by Pakistan, which has fought two wars with India over Muslim-majority Kashmir, or are spontaneous and leaderless. But Mr. Bhat conveys a picture of a movement that is home-grown and highly organized.

"We are hopeful and sure we will win this war," Mr. Bhat, who rarely speaks to media, said from a location in Srinagar, the summer capital of India's Jammu and Kashmir state. He said he changes location every few hours to avoid arrest on charges of inciting violence. He said he isn't backed by Pakistan.

Mr. Bhat uses the Internet to spread his call to rise up for secession; in July, he made an impassioned video appeal, posted on YouTube, for Indian troops to leave the valley.

Perhaps his most significant innovation has been a "Protest Calendar" published in the local media that stipulates days for protests and closures of schools and shops. The calendar, which has largely been adhered to by both rural and urban Kashmiris, has brought the valley to a virtual economic standstill.

"People are all against India now. They will do anything," he said. "They will sacrifice anything."

The protests have largely been low-tech, with mostly young people turning out and throwing stones at Indian forces. No Indian security personnel have died, marking something of a public-relations victory for the protesters.

"Mass mobilization has happened before but never so systematic, never for so long and never so widespread. He's strategized it," says Sheikh Showkat Hussain, a law professor at the University of Kashmir.

Kashmir's new inspector general of police, S.M. Sahai, says authorities are seeking Mr. Bhat for playing a central role in the protests. He says he believes Mr. Bhat's core supporters, unemployed youths aged under 25 years old, have intimidated other Kashmiris to shut down schools and shops but that many are now tired of the closures.

A senior Indian Home Ministry official said Mr. Bhat was more radicaland has a larger support basethan other separatist leaders. "He represents the extreme form of Islamism in Kashmir," the official said, adding that his tactics will be fruitless: "We're not giving in to threats. There's no chance."

Mr. Bhata science graduate who speaks fluent English and wears a long, unkempt beard in the Islamic fashionis the leader of a separatist party called the Muslim League. He is also the deputy of the hard-line faction of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, a separatist group with conservative, Islamist leanings that rejects talks with India on Kashmir's status.

His group split off years ago from more moderate members, who back talks with India. Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, the leader of the more moderate splinter group, says the conservative movement has broad influence. "He's become an icon, a Robin Hood-type figure," Mr. Farooq says.

But Mr. Farooq says Mr. Bhat's non-stop strikes and other methods have filled young people with unrealistic expectations for independence. He also says Mr. Bhat has attempted to portray Kashmir as a religious battle between the local Muslim-majority population and Hindu-majority India. "He took a radical line in terms of Kashmir being an Islamic issue," he says. "We see it as a political problem."

The issue of Kashmir is crucial to regional peace and even the U.S.-led war in Afghanistan.

During the 1990s, more than 60,000 people died in a struggle between militants, trained and funded by Pakistan, and security forces. India largely stamped out the rebellion using hundreds of thousands of troops.

India maintains more than half a million security forces in its part of Kashmir, creating a sense of military occupation. The U.S. believes the tensions are a major reason Pakistan doesn't deploy more troops to fight Taliban militants on its Afghanistan border.

In 2008, elections in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir, for which two-thirds of the electorate turned out, led to hope that separatist tensions had declined. But separatist parties, including Mr. Bhat's, boycotted those polls, saying they were illegitimate. The failure of the pro-India state government to push through election promises, most importantly a demilitarization of Kashmir, boosted support for separatist politicians.

Mr. Bhat came to the fore just before those elections as a spokesman for separatist parties during mass protests in mid-2008 against the transfer of Kashmiri land for use by Hindu pilgrims. Police fired on those protests, killing scores of people.

Mr. Bhat became active in student politics in the late 1980s, after graduating from Srinagar's top Protestant missionary school. He said he has spent 17 years of the past two decades in jail for separatist activities but never fought as a militant. Police and Indian state officials confirm that account, saying he has been arrested only for unrest.

He was released from his latest stint in jail just before June 11, the day police fired tear gas shells to disburse a separatist demonstration in downtown Srinagar, killing a college student and igniting the current round of violence. Mr. Bhat quickly began organizing protests.

He acknowledges that he favors Kashmir ceding to Pakistan, an Islamic state, and believes the Quran should serve as the basis for law in the territory. Mr. Sahai, the police chief, says he has evidence Mr. Bhat's Muslim League receives funding and support from Pakistan-based Islamist groups. Mr. Bhat denies he has ties to Pakistani-based militant organizations or other global Islamist groups. He says he respects non-Muslims.

"We are not having an international agenda. We are not against America. We are against Indian occupation," says Mr. Bhat, sitting on the floor of a sparse room in a two-story brick house in Srinagar's old town, a warren of narrow lanes overlooked by a Mughal-era fort.

A supporter locks the door from outside. Mr. Bhat says he has been able to evade capture for three months because India's intelligence apparatus has broken down amid the protests. "If I'm at large it's because of the people," he says, speaking softly and averting his eyes.

Mr. Bhat says that for the current violence to stop, India must first agree that Kashmir is an international dispute and hold a plebiscite over the future of the territory. It must also take measures such as withdrawing troops and reforming a law that shields Indian security forces from prosecution for human-rights abuses.

The government has intimated in recent weeks it is willing to offer limited compromises, such as revisions to army-impunity laws and some troop draw-downs, but only after the current round of violence is quelled. 

WSJ |


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## eastwatch

bandit said:


> Come back after you are finished counting, and I'll tell you why you are wrong.



How about the counting given below? It says only of 1990s.


Rocks, YouTube undergird J&K protests 
Sunday, September 05,2010 

SRINAGAR: During the 1990s, more than 60,000 people died in a struggle between militants, trained and funded by Pakistan, and security forces. India largely stamped out the rebellion using hundreds of thousands of troops.


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## Patrician

eastwatch said:


> How about the counting given below? It says only of 1990s.
> 
> 
> Rocks, YouTube undergird J&K protests
> Sunday, September 05,2010
> 
> SRINAGAR: During the 1990s, more than 60,000 people died *in a struggle between militants, trained and funded by Pakistan, and security forces*. India largely stamped out the rebellion using hundreds of thousands of troops.



Either it missed your eyespan or you do not understand plain, simple english. Pick one.

One very basic thing.

In kashmir there have been human rights violations and there's no gainsaying that. But do keep one very important thing in mind, wherever there is a rebellion and a resulting struggle between the forces of that country and rebels, there are bound to be civilian casualties. Denying it is only fooling oneself. 

It is not some rocket science which is soooooooo difficult to understand. It is plain and simple common sense.

I can cite many examples from human history to prove my point. How about we start with the country whose flag you've put on?

Shall we start counting?

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## indianpatriot

you will not get Pakistan no matter how much you try Pakistani bros!


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## SpArK

*Does P0K militant want to lead a normal life?*

Poonch, Jammu and Kashmir: The Army has captured a senior militant commander, Liaqat Hussain, with his family at the Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu and Kashmir's Poonch district. Thirty five-year-old Liaqat, who once dreamed of an independent Kashmir, now wants to live a normal life with his family but is not sure what the fate of his children born in Pakistan Okupied Kashmir (P0K) will be.

The militant was caught infiltrating arms along with his family including three children. He would have been eligible to surrender but the police say Hussain cannot benefit from the state's surrender policy since he was arrested. Also, he was returning with an AK-47, a pistol and ammunition that doesn't help his case.

Husain joined the Hizbul Mujahideen 10 years ago and was trained in P0K to fight for an independent Kashmir. He returned to fight in Poonch. In 2001, he got married to a woman from Poonch and tired of being on the run, went back to P0K.

According to intelligence reports, 2000 men from Jammu and Kashmir are in P0K for arms training but some want to return to lead a peaceful life.

Liaqat too admits this. Speaking to NDTV, he said, "There are a lot of people who want to return to normal life."

The fate of the couple's children aged eight, six and two hangs in balance as they were born in P0K and are not Indian citizens.

"Right now we can't say anything about the children. That will be decided according to the law of the land," said Jugal Manha, Additional SP, Poonch.

It is still not clear what prompted Liaqat to return with his family and whether he has actually cut all the links with militancy, but the way the case will now be handled will also serve an important message to militants across the LoC who want to return to lead a normal life.


Read more at: Does *** militant want to lead a normal life?
Read more at: Does *** militant want to lead a normal life?


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## GUNNER

*Crunch time in Kashmir* 

*By Irfan Husain* 

Slowly, ever so slowly, the ongoing crisis in Kashmir is seeping into the worlds consciousness. 

For years, this unfolding tragedy was explained away through Indian charges of Pakistani involvement in the freedom movement. Much of this was true, as official and unofficial players supported an armed insurgency. But what is happening now in the Valley has nothing to do with cross-border incursions by jihadi militants. 

The ongoing protest movement is spearheaded by teenagers armed with nothing except stones and the strength of their convictions. The only shots that have been fired have been by Indian security forces who have caused scores of deaths and injuries among these unarmed protesters. The problem for an uncaring Indian government is that this movement shows no signs of flagging. 

If these protests have placed New Delhi in a quandary, they have also marginalised Islamabad. Suddenly, shadowy spooks and Islamic militant groups in Pakistan and Azad Kashmir find themselves sidelined by an amorphous, popular uprising that has no time for home-grown or Pakistani terrorists. 

In a recent article (London Review of Books, July 22), Tariq Ali wrote: Now a new generation of Kashmiri youth is on the march. They fight, like the young Palestinians, with stones. Many have lost their fear of death and will not surrender. Ignored by politicians at home, abandoned by Pakistan, they are developing the independence of spirit that comes with isolation and it will not easily be quelled. Its unlikely, however, that the prime minister of India and his colleagues will pay any attention to them. 

The Palestinian analogy is apt. There, young stone-throwing protesters have forced their struggle on to the international agenda, as the latest American effort to promote a settlement of the dispute gets under way in Washington. However, the difference lies in how these two conflicts are viewed by the world: the death of a Palestinian protester makes headlines, while several Kashmiris can be killed without any media attention. 

Why this difference in how the global media covers these two freedom movements? One reason lies in the fact that while Palestine is viewed as Israeli-occupied territory, Kashmir is considered an integral part of India. Another factor is that India is seen as a reasonable, humane country. As home to Mahatma Gandhi, most people in the West have been influenced by Indias hugely successful projection of its soft power. So much so that people are often blind to its use of hard power. 

New Delhis crude attempts to crush the movement have resulted in thousands of deaths over the last two decades. An Indian reader recently asked me how the government should deal with the uprising. I suggested that it needs to talk with Kashmiri leaders, and not just lock them up or shoot them. The problem is that the Indian establishment views the ongoing protests as a security issue, not a political one. Indians often see protesters as traitors, and treat them as such. 

However, the situation has changed with Pakistans virtual absence from the equation. For years, India had accused Islamabad  often with justification  of trying to force a change in the status quo by force. This no longer holds true. Now, even the most rabid Indian nationalist concedes the indigenous nature of the movement. 

So what are the options open to the Indian government? The truth is that there is little sympathy in India for the Kashmiri protesters. Left and liberal forces are largely silent on the issue. They may feel uncomfortable over the use of lethal force against unarmed teenagers, but do not really want to confront the core issue of azadi, or freedom, the Kashmiris are demanding. 

To be sure, India is not going to give an inch on the question of Kashmiri independence. Over the last 60 years, the Indian position has hardened to the point of becoming a central plank in its national consensus. No Indian politician is prepared to make any concessions. So does this mean an endless use of force to crush a popular, largely peaceful movement? The Economist sees a glimmer of hope. In its Banyan column, the UK weekly says: 

Eventually, however, India may have to contemplate a political solution, for two reasons. One is that small cracks are already appearing in the national consensus behind its repressive policies. So long as it was fighting Pakistan, even liberal Indian opinion seemed ready to tolerate a heavy hand in Kashmir. Less so now that its troops are killing children armed only with stones. Secondly, without change, the cycle of protests will resume. 

Given Indias refusal to countenance any changes to the political frontiers of Kashmir, and the popular demand for azadi, how can these extreme positions be bridged? Thus far, little attempt has been made to improve life for the impoverished people of the Valley. Civil unrest and two decades of terrorism have kept tourists away. There is an acute and chronic power shortage in the disputed territory that generates a lot of hydro-electric power, most of which is taken elsewhere. Very little private investment comes to the troubled Valley. Unemployment is rife. 

Under these conditions, nobody should be surprised that young people have risen in revolt. But even more than economic factors, it is the oppressive presence of over half a million security personnel in the disputed territory that infuriates Kashmiris. Indian officials point out that most of their soldiers are deployed along the Line of Control to counter the Pakistani military presence there. 

All the greater need, then, to talk to Pakistan and sort out outstanding border issues, and discuss autonomy issues with Kashmiri leaders. In the original agreements between Britain, India and Pakistan, states at the time of independence only had the option of joining India or Pakistan. But after years of indifference, downright neglect, and repression, Kashmiri attitudes have hardened, too. Now, it seems that the young protesters want nothing to do with either India or Pakistan. 

However, in the real world, we seldom get exactly what we want. If India wants to resolve this intractable issue, just wishing it will go away on its own is no longer an option.


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## foxbat

Jammu& Kashmir: 1 terrorist killed in ongoing encounter in Poonch

Poonch: One terrorist has been killed in a raging encounter in Jammu and Kashmir's Poonch district. 

It is joint operation of the police and Army.

One more militant is believed to be holed up.

More details are awaited.



Read more at: Jammu& Kashmir: 1 terrorist killed in ongoing encounter in Poonch



EDIT: Heard that the holed up terrorist has surrendered

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## dabong1

Well done freedom fighters.......keep up the good job

The ones killed by the indian butcher forces are more then likely innocent people who the indians have framed as normal.

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## civfanatic

indianpatriot said:


> you will not get Pakistan no matter how much you try Pakistani bros!



Syed Ali shah Geelani Ka elaan ....
Kashmir Banega Pakistan ..

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## Patrician

Self-deleted


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## Hulk

I have been following the events that are unfolding in Kashmir very closely and trying to understand the situation. I must admit it took me long time to understand the problem. I am trying to put my argument here as to why people are asking for Azadi, what they really mean by that and what can India do to make things better.
My analysis says that the main cause of irritation amongst the Kashmirs is the caged life they are living. Their movement is restricted they are often asked to show their ID cards and failure to produce one can lead them to unpleasant situation. The CRPF men and policemen are also irritated by long duties which they do not enjoy; also facing stones from Kashmiris must be building anger against them. I therefore do not doubt that CRPF might be little rude to people at times. I am not blaming CRPF it is natural of them to behave that way. The requirement of carrying ID cards adds to their feeling of Kashmiris are not being trusted. Another example is that they find difficult to get passports, when people of valley find it difficult to get a passport and feel that they have been discriminated this feeling is alienated even further. Add to this the regular strikes, while India can do little to prevent these strikes but it adds to frustration against India, very few people actually would like to blame this to separatist, a lot of people feel that it is India due to which they are living a life of misery. The most important factor that alienates this feeling is deaths caused by riot control. Some of these deaths are accidental E.g. only a naive person will feel that death caused by tear gas shell was ill intended. There are groups of people sitting in Kashmir with whole intention of creating resentment against the GOI and they do not want to let an opportunity go. The death from tear gas shell is a perfect opportunity for these hawks, it is blessing in disguise for them. If you look at some of the past instance of people trying to blame CRPF for deaths/rapes that they have no involvement into E.g. Shopain **** of two sisters 2009 (Later found doctor fabricated ****) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Sh...nd_murder_case , Murder by friends blamed on Armed forces IBNLive - Page Not Found . The above examples clearly show that people are waiting for opportunity to malign the security forces.
I feel that the call for Azadi is driven primarily by feeling caged and what people actually means is not separation from India but getting Azad from the life living in cage. To understand little more think for example if similar restrictions are there in any other state in India and they continue for 20 odd years. What will the public feel, the present government is not capable for solve the problem and hence we do not want to be govern by them. The citizen of Kashmir feels that if they remain part of India they have to continue living this caged life. Some people in India think that Kashmirs would get attracted towards India looking at their economic progress, they should understand no one loves a golden cage, freedom is supreme and if people do not feel free economic prosperity will not help. A similar analogy can be seen in Iraq where US initially welcomes as liberators where hated towards there end, basically it is responsibility of governing body to provide better life to its people and it they fail after someone time it will lose public support.
What is the solution to this and what India can do? I feel India should start reducing troops ASAP. The violence in Kashmir has decreased and this should be taken as opportunity to reduce the troops. I know a certain section will say, it might increase the violence. We have to take the risk; if violence increases and common people die they will understand why security forces are present in the valley and should be able to appreciate them. If violence does not increase, this is possible as Pakistan is not currently actively pushing ultras, then we might move one step towards demilitarization. This should be followed by reducing troops every six months till we reach an optimum level. We should defiantly have a roadmap to peace in Kashmir. The reason people are angry is they do not see any roadmap from us, without which life is miserable for them.


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## Patrician

civfanatic said:


> Syed Ali shah Geelani Ka elaan ....
> Kashmir Banega Pakistan ..



Troll/flame. Post reported.


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## Agnostic_Indian

I think force should be reduced in living areas and should be increased in border..more radars,satalite,warning systems,night vision,more snipers etc should be there to prevent cross border terrorism. 
number of kashmiri police men should be increased,Greater autonomy should be given,i am not mentioning development because they says doctors and engineers are out in the streets,


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## Hulk

http://www.defence.pk/forums/member...zadi-what-they-mean-what-india-should-do.html

My take on current situation, suggest to read and comment. 

I think GOI is not providing a roadmap to Kashmiri's which is one of the biggest concern to me.


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## SpArK

*No curfew: Kashmiris shop for Eid a week in advance​*
2010-09-05 22:50:00
*Kashmiris Sunday started their Eid shopping a week before the festival as there was no curfew in the Valley*. Hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Geelani modified his call for a shutdown Monday and asked the people to resume normal activities in the afternoon.

In a statement here Sunday, Geelani said in view of the Shab-e-Qadr being observed Monday night, Kashmiris must resume their normal life from 2 p.m. onwards on Monday.

As per the earlier protest calendar issued by him as part of his group's 'Quit Kashmir' campaign, Geelani had appealed for a complete Valley shutdown Monday and asked the people to resume normal activities only Sunday. A shutdown has also been announced for Tuesday and Wednesday.

'The calendar has been modified to enable people make purchases for the holy Shab-e-Qadr tomorrow (Monday),' Geelani said in his statement Sunday evening.

Muslims throughout the world engage in nightlong prayers thronging mosques during Shab-e-Qadr which is the holiest night as per the Muslim belief.

The hardline leader had also asked people to resume normal life Sunday to facilitate Eid shopping, which Geelani stressed should be done with utmost austerity because of the death of 65 people in the ongoing unrest in the Valley that started June 11.

Till late Sunday evening, almost all the markets in the Jammu and Kashmir's summer capital Srinagar and other towns of the Valley were abuzz with shoppers as they picked up essential items for Eid-ul-Fitr which falls around Sep 11 after the end of the holy month of Ramadan.

*Most of the roads in Srinagar witnessed traffic jams as police tried to regulate the movement of vehicles.
*

*People were seen shopping and some educational institutions were open despite it being a Sunday.*


'This happens only in Kashmir. Who would believe it is a public holiday today? Shops, other businesses, public transport and some educational institutions are functioning here,' said Abdul Gani Bhat, 51, a local businessman.

'Anyway, it's nice to see people going around to shop for the coming Eid-ul-Fitr,' Bhat added.

Pavement vendors were out in strength to to sell merchandise like woollens, garments, fruits and dates.

'One never knows whether we would be able to sell goods tomorrow or the day after. It is better to make hay while the sun shines,' said Mehraj-ud-Din, a fruit seller on the Residency Road.

Even poultry and mutton shops did some brisk business after almost three months of shutdowns, curfews and protests.

The hardline separatists have been issuing protest calendars on a weekly basis for the last three months and the authorities have responded to these by imposing curfews and restrictions in most parts of the Valley.

With the separatists withdrawing their protest programme for a day, authorities did not impose curfew anywhere in the Valley Sunday.

'This has happened after almost three months. For the last three months, there were curfews in certain parts and restrictions in other parts to prevent violence by stone pelting mobs here,' said Bashir Ahmad, 58, a veterinarian.

'The magic of Eid-ul-Fitr could be seen at work everywhere in the Valley today as the people went about their daily chores without any fear,' he said.

Ahmad himself had come with his family form Kashmir's Ganderbal district for Eid shopping in Srinagar.

The separatists have also appealed to the people that they should not buy any fire crackers because of the unrest in the Valley.

'That is definitely going to deprive the children of some of their fun this Eid. But, it is fair enough not to use fire crackers this Eid. After all, 65 locals, including teenagers and youth, have lost lives in the last three months,' said Ahmad.

Ahmad's 15-year old son, Wasim, did not insist on buying any fire crackers this Eid.

'He understands the pain and suffering which is written on every face in the valley,' Ahmad said.

Authorities did not impose any curfew or restrictions here Saturday as well to ensure people could preparing for Eid festivities


No curfew: Kashmiris shop for Eid a week in advance

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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

According to me the following steps should be taken....and i am from J&K.

Firstly,make Jammu,Kashmir and Leh Ladakh a seperate state.

People from Jammu region are suffering because of Kashmiris coz their friends from across the border carrying AKs roam all over Jammu region thinking that J&K wants freedom or whatever.

Seperatists need to realise we dont want any freedom and we dont waste our time pelting stones coz we are proud to be a part of India.

Jammu is a region where hindus,muslims,christians,sikhs and now buddhists live peacefully without fighting...there is a tale that a ruler named Jambhu Loachan came to what is now jammu city to hunt...and he saw a goat and a leopard or tiger driniking water in the same pool and decided to make a city there as he believed in this place if a goat and a tiger can live peacefully then why not humans..so he named it Jammu...we are not like kashmiris where a majority asked the minority to leave.

Because of Kashmiris my region is suffering...so i dont want my region to be a part of kashmir.



Secondly..having being lived in kashmir..i think best possible step is to withdraw CRPF completely.

Then slowly move the Army out of anti terrorist operattions and give the responsibility to the JK armed police.

And slowly motivate Kashmiri hindus to return to kashmir as soon as the environment is right...coz if pandits are there then it would be harder for seperatists to ask for freedom.

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## bandit

eastwatch said:


> How about the counting given below? It says only of 1990s.
> 
> 
> Rocks, YouTube undergird J&K protests
> Sunday, September 05,2010
> 
> SRINAGAR: During the 1990s, more than 60,000 people died in a struggle between militants, trained and funded by Pakistan, and security forces. India largely stamped out the rebellion using hundreds of thousands of troops.



Even if we ignore his counting back from 1948 to wherever he wants to go, seems he's still not finished maybe stuck in 10,000 BC  ...

Kashmir insurgency started in late 80's before that there was no protests...so extrapolating death rates of 90's back to '47 is incorrect.




> SRINAGAR: During the 1990s, more than 60,000 people died in a struggle between militants, trained and funded by Pakistan, and security forces. India largely stamped out the rebellion using hundreds of thousands of troops.



The insurgency itself....I hope you appreciate some pertinent points in your own posts...obviously we are not solely responsible for the whole mess and deaths in Kashmir...people that have used them to further their own interests are equally to blame.


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## Donatello

If i am correct, these people want to be free from Indian occupation and have their own land?

And why is Pakistani Kashmir not up in riots?

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## bandit

indianrabbit said:


> I have been following the events that are unfolding in Kashmir very closely and trying to understand the situation. I must admit it took me long time to understand the problem. I am trying to put my argument here as to why people are asking for Azadi, what they really mean by that and what can India do to make things better.
> My analysis says that the main cause of irritation amongst the Kashmirs is the caged life they are living. Their movement is restricted they are often asked to show their ID cards and failure to produce one can lead them to unpleasant situation. The CRPF men and policemen are also irritated by long duties which they do not enjoy; also facing stones from Kashmiris must be building anger against them. I therefore do not doubt that CRPF might be little rude to people at times. I am not blaming CRPF it is natural of them to behave that way. The requirement of carrying ID cards adds to their feeling of Kashmiris...............snip :



I appreciate your detailed analysis and the effort you have put in here.
But I would disagree with some parts in your post.

You have mixed up cause and effect here, the restricted movement, the check-posts, haajiri etc are the result of heavy troop presence, that in turn, is the result of insurgency, and of the protests to some extent. The heavy handed measures occur because the troops posted are outsiders with little consideration for local culture and sentiments but why are they there?

Kashmiri's feel wronged and that is not totally unjustified. They have discontent and to make any progress in the valley that will have to be resolved, or these flare ups will continue. The troop presence and repression is an exacerbating factor,but the root of the problem lies somewhere else, and that has to be resolved first.

And oh, don't believe Kashmir is just a killing zone with big bad Indian army mowing down Kashmiris, our friends across the line have a habit of inflating numbers (600,000 troops, millions killed etc.), don't fall for it.


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## JanjaWeed

let's be honest & blunt here.. noting will change & status quo will remain. majority of kashmiris are happy with the status quo, which was proved during last assembly elections. i'm sure minority few will have their own interpretation with regard to the legitimacy of election results. however i do have certain qualms with regard to central & state government's initiative when it comes to stuff like economic & welfare development schemes. GOI need to put more effort on these things. need to build more educational institutions. central or state govts need to bring in investments to provide employment to local public. i know, its very difficult to do this when seperatists are hell bent in thwarting these efforts by colluding with outside forces. but state & central govt needs to get thru these hurdles for the betterment of fellow countrymen.


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## Pukhtoon

Am i watching an Indian Movie 

Cross border terrorism and bla bla

what kind of people you are ? you know the reason and still want to know the reason .Pushto main kehte hain trans" suraj ungli se nahi chupta "


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## Pasban

*Two killed as Kashmir protests continue*






Chairman of the moderate faction of All Parties Hurriyat Conference Mirwaiz Umar Farooq (C) leads an anti-India rally in Srinagar on September 5, 2010.

Two people have been reportedly killed as thousands take to the streets of Indian-administered Kashmir to protest Indian rule in the disputed Himalayan region. 


Demonstrators on Sunday defied a curfew in the summer capital of Srinagar to protest the Indian-rule and the killings of civilians. 

Mirwaiz Umar Farooq -- a Muslim cleric and an influential moderate separatist -- led the pro-independence rally. 

Local sources say two youngsters were killed when police opened fire to disperse the crowd, Kashmir Media Service reported. 

This comes after violent clashes between protesters and government forces left some two dozen people injured across the volatile valley on Friday. 

The region's influential separatist politicians have led numerous rallies in the disputed valley over the past weeks after police killed a teenage protester in early June. 

They have threatened to continue protesting until India declares Kashmir an "international dispute" and releases all political prisoners. 

New Delhi has expressed its willingness to hold talks with key separatist groups from Kashmir. 

&#8220;We hope to restart the dialogue process. We will talk to any group, any political party which is willing to talk to us," Indian Home Minister Palaniappan Chidambaram said Sunday. 

More than 60 protesters and bystanders have lost their lives during two months of civil unrest in the region. 

Thousands have been killed in volatile Indian-administered Kashmir since 1989. 

JR/HGH/MMN

PressTV - Two killed as Kashmir protests continue

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## U-571

F these bharatis, azadi to kashmir asap, dis the only good stuff from press tv. congrats


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## Coltsfan

U-571 said:


> F these bharatis, azadi to kashmir asap, *dis the only good stuff from press tv. congrats *



News report of two people dying is good stuff?

Just goes on to show how much people like you really care about Kashmiris, doesn't matter how many people die as long as it is being reported in the press........ right?


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## U-571

Coltsfan said:


> News report of two people dying is good stuff?
> 
> Just goes on to show how much people like you really care about Kashmiris, doesn't matter how many people die as long as it is being reported in the press........ right?



coltsfan, i am saying good stuff for reporting true news from media channels like press tv got it dude???


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## Coltsfan

U-571 said:


> coltsfan, i am saying good stuff for reporting true news from media channels like press tv got it dude???



Alright, perhaps you might want to state your comments more clearly next time.

Thanks for clarifying though, good to know that you are not happy to hear death of 2 people .


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## Molawchai

Coltsfan said:


> Alright, perhaps you might want to state your comments more clearly next time.
> 
> Thanks for clarifying though, good to know that you are not happy to hear death of 2 people .




Hey, why you have to bring your baby brother along with you everytime you post? its getting really annoying though.


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## U-571

Molawchai said:


> Hey, why you have to bring your baby brother along with you everytime you post? its getting really annoying though.



an indian in thaish disguise


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## Donatello

As i asked earlier, why are these people demanding freedom...from India?

I mean Pakistani Kashmir is relatively peaceful...so i really don't understand the paradox here....


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## Molawchai

U-571 said:


> an indian in thaish disguise



Hmm, by replacing the word thais with Pakintani will be a perfect discription of your biography.


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## JanjaWeed

penumbra said:


> As i asked earlier, why are these people demanding freedom...from India?
> 
> I mean Pakistani Kashmir is relatively peaceful...so i really don't understand the paradox here....



my frend your question sounds innocent, but u do know the answer. ok... let me try and answer this to the best of my ability. pakistan part of kashmir is mostly trouble free 'cause india does not provide so called 'diplomatic & political support' to this part of kashmir. now you know what i'm implying here. also majority of indian kashmiris are not for freedom. it's only the minority few provoked by the seperatists who are 'politically & diplomatically' supported by extarnal forces. 
unfortunately you only hear the loud noice of these few minorities in these circumstances.

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## bandit

U-571 said:


> F these bharatis, azadi to kashmir asap, dis the only good stuff from press tv. congrats



Yeah tell your Government to declare azadi for them too...because last time I heard you people weren't ready to give them azadi either. You just want Kashmir for yourselves, quit being dishonest and feigning support for Azadi.


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## somebozo

Kashmiris want to preserve their identity. They dont want to be called Indians or be forced to put their indentity as secondary. This clause has every support because Kashmir was neither part of British India nor Imperial India. ANd this is their intention they mean cleary "india get out and leave us alone".
What India can do is withdraw its forces, hand over Kashmir to UN for future referendum and independence. Same case like south sudan. 

UN is quick to react when it comes to dividing Indonesia, Morocco or Sudan and absolutely incompetent to deal with France and India?? WHY??

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## Beskar

StreetHawk said:


> my frend your question sounds innocent, but u do know the answer. ok... let me try and answer this to the best of my ability. pakistan part of kashmir is mostly trouble free 'cause india does not provide so called 'diplomatic & political support' to this part of kashmir. now you know what i'm implying here. also majority of indian kashmiris are not for freedom. it's only the minority few provoked by the seperatists who are 'politically & diplomatically' supported by extarnal forces.
> unfortunately you only hear the loud noice of these few minorities in these circumstances.



So what you're trying to say here is that Pakistan was the one who provided the Kashmiri protesters with sticks and stones? How do you explain the recent 'Unarmed Protests' breaking out in Kashmir?


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## Hulk

Bezerk said:


> So what you're trying to say here is that Pakistan was the one who provided the Kashmiri protesters with sticks and stones? How do you explain the recent 'Unarmed Protests' breaking out in Kashmir?



I have answered your question in my post already. It was because of militancy life became miserable for Kashmir's which lead to frustration and hence feeling of being caged. The duration of conflict is working against India.

Look below to see how GOI feels the same way as I mentioned in my post.

Centre may lift AFSPA in Srinagar - India - The Times of India 

Pakistan did not had any militancy and hence it does not have same feeling on being caged.


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## S_O_C_O_M

Why isn't Azad Kashmir in disarray like Indian Occupied Kashmir?

Why do Kashmiris in Indian Occupied Kashmir hold Pakistan's flag, chant Pakistan and say Hell to India?


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## Hulk

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Why isn't Azad Kashmir in disarray like Indian Occupied Kashmir?
> 
> Why do Kashmiris in Indian Occupied Kashmir hold Pakistan's flag, chant Pakistan and say Hell to India?



Get to reality majority just want to get out of current situation and hence chanting for Azadi. (Every green flag is not of Pakistan). If they wanted to be with Pakistan I guess there sologan would have been different maybe something like we are Pakistani's. (I know some say that too but they are minority).

As I said before since they have to live a life of restriction they feel caged and want to feel free, which is visible in their demand for Azadi.

If India can give them freedom of movement etc this demand will vanish.


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## Beskar

indianrabbit said:


> Pakistan did not had any militancy and hence it does not have same feeling on being *caged*.



Or maybe because we don't see the Pakistan Army patrolling the streets of Muzaffarabad or Mirpur. 

Since I've lived in AK for quite some time, I'll tell you why nobody feels caged; its because we haven't tried to put them in a cage since we consider them a part of Pakistan. They're proud to be Pakistanis. 

Can you say the same thing about the people of J&K?

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## Kompromat

Bezerk said:


> Or maybe because we don't see the Pakistan Army patrolling the streets of Muzaffarabad or Mirpur.
> 
> Since I've lived in AK for quite some time, I'll tell you why nobody feels caged; its because we haven't tried to put them in a cage since we consider them a part of Pakistan. They're proud to be Pakistanis.
> 
> *Can you say the same thing about the people of J&K?*



They can dream and Talk Sh!t , this is what they are good at.


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## Hulk

Bezerk said:


> Or maybe because we don't see the Pakistan Army patrolling the streets of Muzaffarabad or Mirpur.
> 
> Since I've lived in AK for quite some time, I'll tell you why nobody feels caged; its because we haven't tried to put them in a cage since we consider them a part of Pakistan. They're proud to be Pakistanis.
> 
> Can you say the same thing about the people of J&K?



Not as simple as you put it, how about NWFP, SWAT and SW? Do you not have heavy military presence and restricted movements?
It is because situation demands that, militancy in Kashmir meant that such measures have to put in place. No one has means to figure out terrorist within people by just looking at and hence forces do check every person. People will be fine with this in short time but if it continues for long time they will feel upset as it is happening now.


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## RollingStones

Areesh said:


> I oppose the delusion that only the "mohajirs" from India and specially from UP and Bihar oppose Taliban in Pakistan openly and are secular. I consider this a BS and believe that a large part of Pakistan population oppose taliban and their ideology. The article is actually trying to present "mohajirs" as a separate entity from Pakistani society which I consider as wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> The important thing is that article also didn't present the crimes and fascism of MQM which according to this article is founded by "secular" Indian mulims.
> 
> Anyways my objection to this article is that it is presenting migrants from India as separate group in Pak population which is totally wrong. The migrants from India or so called Mohajirs are as Pakistani and as religious as any other Pakistani.



It is too early to call if people in the area called pakistan have believed in the concept called pakistan. I think today people of pakistan probably are more skeptical about the concept of pakistani state than at any time in the past. Like someone pointed out in earlier posts, with so many editions of constitutions, coups, religious strife, economic and political bankruptcies including blackballed sports teams, the concept of Pakistan is today merely surviving on the shoulders of Saudi Arabia and China. We have to wait another quarter of a century to see if the idea of pakistan has worked. Right now it has not for the people who live there. So generalizing things about various parties within Pakistan at this point is perhaps not ideal. There are a lot of valid points in the article. We have seen that the terrorism in the world has been perpetuated by a specific sect within Islam, the very same sect that maybe asking for "azaadi" in Kashmir. If the Indian Government explains to the world this position, it is going to become even more difficult to see Kashmir as any sort of freedom movement. Worse, if the west sees Kashmiri students in its Universities here and they keep quiet about any sort of freedom, that will hurt as well. America and the west does not support independence for Kashmiris. So, it is going to be interesting to see how this works for Kashmiris. The article if close to the truth is dangerous for the kashmiri freedom movement. The major part of the article that there are several muslims in Kashmir who want to remain with India is a huge positive for India. I wasnt aware of that until now.


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## Hulk

Black Blood said:


> They can dream and Talk Sh!t , this is what they are good at.



Generalization, sometimes you should do introspection and see how much Sh!t your own people produce.

No country/community is perfect selectively picking people who are not good and ignoring the good ones will give you that feeling.

Blaming floods/match fixing on India is not Sh!t right they are sensible in your opinion?

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## Hulk

Areesh said:


> First it was only muslim population. Now it is only Sunni population. Than it would be only bareilvi, only deobandi and only ahle hadees population.
> 
> Come one Bharatis how low you can go.



First get one person who is non Muslim to say they want to separate from India. It is purely a religious movement, where some people just cannot tolerate a secular society.

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## Beskar

indianrabbit said:


> Not as simple as you put it, how about NWFP, SWAT and SW? Do you not have heavy military presence and restricted movements?
> It is because situation demands that, militancy in Kashmir meant that such measures have to put in place. No one has means to figure out terrorist within people by just looking at and hence forces do check every person. People will be fine with this in short time but if it continues for long time they will feel upset as it is happening now.



Since the topic on hand is about Kashmir, lets discuss that first. The fact of the matter is that Pakistan has been able to successfully provide the people of Azad Kashmir with an identity since its creation. India on the other hand hasn't be able to do so. The militancy in Pakistan is not relevant here since its not being carried out in an internationally disputed territory. The majority of population has proven its allegiance with Pakistan, hence the massive migration towards south during operations carried out in the past 3 years. 

If the entire region was up in arms against the state, there wouldn't have been millions of IDPs who left their homes for the Army to carry out their operations against the militants. 

Back to the topic, shall we?


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## Hulk

Bezerk said:


> Since the topic on hand is about Kashmir, lets discuss that first. The fact of the matter is that Pakistan has been able to successfully provide the people of Azad Kashmir with an identity since its creation. India on the other hand hasn't be able to do so. The militancy in Pakistan is not relevant here since its not being carried out in an internationally disputed territory. The majority of population has proven its allegiance with Pakistan, hence the massive migration towards south during operations carried out in the past 3 years.
> 
> If the entire region was up in arms against the state, there wouldn't have been millions of IDPs who left their homes for the Army to carry out their operations against the militants.
> 
> Back to the topic, shall we?



I was 100&#37; on topic if you understand that analogy can be used to make people understand what a person means. Using analogy does not mean off-topic IMO. You cannot compare apple and oranges Azad Kashmir as it is called never had militancy.


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## Beskar

indianrabbit said:


> I was 100&#37; on topic if you understand that analogy can be used to make people understand what a person means. Using analogy does not mean off-topic IMO. You cannot compare apple and oranges Azad Kashmir as it is called never had militancy.



Your 'Analogy' was answered, hence the request to stay on topic. Read the title of your own thread.

Azad Kashmir can be compared with IOK. Both the territories are disputed by Pakistan and India yet one of the territory has an Identity while the other one doesn't. Discussing that makes much more sense then discussing Pakistan's internal affairs.


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## Hulk

Bezerk said:


> Your 'Analogy' was answered, hence the request to stay on topic. Read the title of your own thread.
> 
> Azad Kashmir can be compared with IOK. Both the territories are disputed by Pakistan and India yet one of the territory has an Identity while the other one doesn't. Discussing that makes much more sense then discussing Pakistan's internal affairs.



I agree, I never meant to be off-topic in the first place. I explained why the problem is not there in Azad Kashmir.


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## Omar1984

Sunnis, Shias....we all are MUSLIMS.

hindus should stay out of this, hindus have absolutely nothing to do with ISLAM and MUSLIMS. instead hindus should worry about the millions of hindu dalits in india who are living a life worse than rats.


By the way, most Muslims on earth belong to the SUNNI sect..beware india!!!

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## somebozo

All kuffars who are happy to create a divide dont understand that muslims are unitied in dealing with external threats..during the creation of Pakistan a Sunni majority country the biggest support came from Shia bearucrats and businessmen of North India and Bombay while the largest opposition was sunni hardline party Jamat E Islami?? Even Jinnah belonged to the Shia sect!!! Shocking isnt it??

This divide and rule legacy has not been wiped from Indian mentality yet they talk about "soverginty" and "freedom"



Omar1984 said:


> Sunnis, Shias....we all are MUSLIMS.
> 
> By the way, most Muslims on earth belong to the SUNNI sect..beware india!!!



Indian muslim population is Shia majority and many of them belong to biddati sub-sect of shia'sm despite that such claims will not sit well with mainstream Shias.


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## Desert Fox

these hindus have a serious problem, what gives them the right to stick their nose in our religious matters especially when they have not a atoms size knowledge of our religion, its history and its teachings!

I'm a Sunni and i don't have a problem with Shia's at all, i might not share the same religious views as them but that doesn't mean i hate them or want to kill them! Keep trying but you won't divide us!


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## somebozo

Many of the mainstream Indian shia I have met reject Indian Shi'sm preachers and scholars calling them "sold" and "government agents" due to their anti-pakistan stand in religious preaching.

I got this experience first hand after seein and India shia (from Hydrabad) colleuge of mine glued to religious shi'sm websites with .pk domain.

The indians are trying to play the divide and rule game because they think by wooing Shia's they can get stronger footing in energy rich central asia and persia.

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## somebozo

indianrabbit said:


> First get one person who is non Muslim to say they want to separate from India. It is purely a religious movement, where some people just cannot tolerate a secular society.



Here, I made your life easier..






Jagjit singh chauhan





Khalistan Kh&#257;list&#257;n (Punjabi: &#2582;&#2620;&#2622;&#2610;&#2623;&#2616;&#2596;&#2622;&#2600 is on actually proposed Sikh homeland. The Khalistan movement is a movement in Indian Punjab to create "The Land of the Pure" as an independent Sikh state in all Punjabi-speaking areas, which include Indian Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh and some other Punjabi speaking parts of states like Gujarat and Rajasthan..[9]






The National Democratic Front of Bodoland, also known as NDFB or the Bodo Security Force, is a separatist movement that is predominantly christian which seeks to obtain a sovereign Bodoland for the Bodo people in Assam. The founder of the organization, Ransaigra Nabla Daimari, alias Ranjan Daimari, continues to lead the organization.






Both the National Liberation Front of Tripura and the All Tripura Tiger Force, which claim to represent the Tripuri people, an economically disadvantaged community.[8]. The NLFT, founded in 1989, aims for independence for Tripura. The NLFT is currently proscribed as a terrorist organization in India.

The Arunachal Dragon Force (ADF), also known as the East India Liberation Front, is a violent secessionist movement in the eastern Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh. The ADF seeks to create an independent state resembling the pre-British Teola Country consisting of area currently in Arunachal Pradesh as well as neighboring Assam.

I think this much is enough...



> We think Indian Muslims are different from Pakistanis and less susceptible to fanaticism. It is interesting that within Pakistan, the only group openly and violently opposed to Taliban and terrorism are UP and Bihar migrants who form Karachi&#8217;s secular Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) party.



Doesnt MQM has its own histoy of worst terrorism in Pakistan and the infamous "body bags". Isnt there a warrant on its founder who has escaped to UK and has taken up UK citizenship??? MQM is violently opposed to Puktoons..it has never confronted talibans with weapons even when some taliban commanders were operating from its constituency. Isnt religious fanatism an invention of Indian muslim and his school of thought?? Moulana Modoodi??


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## EjazR

i disagree with shia sunni differentiation.

The point is that only the valley muslims are pro-independance(not pro-pakistan ). The shia majority Kargil region is pro-India. 

And the Gujjars and Bakerwals who are mostly sunni muslims but live in border regions are mostly pro-India as well. Infact, most of them get guns and training as part of village defence committes.

*
@somebozo*
You seem to have a lot of misinformation about India, 85-86&#37; are sunni muslims in India. 

Moreover just speaking against GoP makes them government agents? IS the GoP or Pakistan some holy thing that it can't be criticised?
Get over it for God's sake.

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## somebozo

@EjazR
I am not speaking on everyone behalf i clearly mentioned my findined limited to my experience only. Agree Pakistan is not a holy cow and among 1billion people one will find many nay and yay..


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## Omar1984

EjazR said:


> i disagree with shia sunni differentiation.
> 
> The point is that only the valley muslims are pro-independance(not pro-pakistan ). The shia majority Kargil region is pro-India.
> 
> And the Gujjars and Bakerwals who are mostly sunni muslims but live in border regions are mostly pro-India as well. Infact, most of them get guns and training as part of village defence committes.



Who are you to talk about an entire group of people. You are a south indian what the hell would you know about Gujjars.

Im a Muslim Gujjar, and everyone who knows me knows that im very anti-india. The man who came up with the word PAKISTAN and was one of the founding fathers of the Pakistan movement, Chaudhry Rahmat Ali, was a Muslim Gujjar. Theres a large population of Gujjars in Pakistan, even cities in Pakistan are named after us like Gujranwala in Punjab Province of Pakistan.

Give Muslim Gujjars in India Occupied Jammu and Kashmir a referendum, most would chose Pakistan on the spot.




EjazR said:


> You seem to have a lot of misinformation about India, 85-86&#37; are sunni muslims in India..



Since when did india become a Muslim majority country? Only 13.5% of india's population is Muslim. 

More than 80% are hindus in india.

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## EjazR

*@Omar*

I am talking about Gujjars and Bakerwals of India not Pakistan. It is better you first learn about them rather than make statements that make no sense.

Why would Pakistani Gujjars be pro India?

and second, out of the muslim community in India 85-86% are sunni. Now cheer up.

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## Alex1

Omar1984 said:


> Since when did india become a Muslim majority country? Only 13.5% of india's population is Muslim.
> 
> More than 80% are hindus in india.



EjazR	
Re: What ails Kashmir? The Sunni idea of azadi
@Omar 

and second, out of the muslim community in India 85-86% are sunni. Now cheer up.

80% of muslims in INDIA are sunnis


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## Omar1984

EjazR said:


> *@Omar*
> 
> I am talking about Gujjars and Bakerwals of India not Pakistan. It is better you first learn about them rather than make statements that make no sense.



First of all Jammu and Kashmir is not india. Its a disputed territory recognized by the UN and the entire international community as a disputed territory. Secondly, Muslim Gujjars all over the world are the same people. We have the same blood, same religion, same traditions, same history, same names. We are exactly the same, no matter if we are in India Occupied Jammu and Kashmir or in Azad Kashmir or in Punjab province of Pakistan. We are the same. You are a south indian and got absolutely nothing to do with Muslim Gujjars.

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## EjazR

OK Omar if that makes you happy good for you.

Delusions is not reality. Hope you can understand that.

The reality is that Geelani "saab" actually said that Gujjars are not muslims. Just because they don't support his "movement".

That the valley sepratists shouted slogans like Gujjar Gujjar hai hai just because they are pro-India. 

Just two articles for you to read, and you will find many more if you want to

*Is it a sin to be a Gujjar?*
*Gujjar, Bakerwal students reject Geelani&#8217;s statement*

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## somebozo

This man..go figure...I love him..he also very much look like of my Kashmiri friend aka Malik jee!


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## EjazR

And here is a writer that explains why

*Across LoC: Gujjars In Identity Crisis By Zafar Choudhary*
By Zafar Choudhary

09 February, 2007
Countercurrents.org

The third largest ethnic group &#8211;after Kashmiri speaking Muslims and Dogra Hindus &#8211;Gujjars are a unique tribe with their own cultural and linguistic identities. Over the years, even politically they have emerged as significant entity influencing the winning prospects of any party in more than 20 of 87 assembly constituencies in Jammu and Kashmir. Since early 1990s, after their inclusion in Scheduled Tribes &#8211;a provision of the Constitution of India which provides for reservation in jobs and other welfare benefits &#8211;this tribe has undergone a significant improvement in their socio-economic profile. A struggle is currently on for political reservation as they are seeking reservation of assembly constituencies proportionate to their population.


Since Jammu and Kashmir has been a single geo-political entity before the division of 1947 which separated lakhs of siblings across two sides of Jammu and Kashmir on Indian and Pakistani side, Gujjars too suffered enormously on this account. Ever since the plight of Gujjars in the Pakistan administered Kashmir has been a subject of keen interest. After the Pahari-Punjabi speaking Rajput Muslims, Gujjars are the second larget ethnic group in Pakistan administered Kashmir. With the establishment of communication links between two parts of the formerly undivided state &#8211;the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad and Poonch-Rawalakote bus services &#8211;a reality check on both sides reveals that the Gujjars in Pakistan administered Kashmir are the verge of loosing the distinct identity.


Pir Panchal region is considered the home to the Gujjar Tribe in Jammu and Kashmir state. Although their scattered inhabitations and houses are also existing in Kashmir valley, Jammu, Udhampur, Kathua and Doda district on this side of Line of Control; a sizeable Gujjar population lives on the other side of Line of Control particularly in Mirpur, Bhimber, Kotli, Plandri, Rawala Kote, Bagh and Muzaffrabad district of Pakistan administered Kashmir. Their main concentration, however, is on the slopes and foot hills of Pir Panchal.

In several parts of Jammu and Kashmir, the Gujjars are flourshing with their cultural flavour, traditional heritage and Gojri linguistic atmosphere. Majority of Gujjars migrate from their native villages to upper reaches, Dhoks, Margs and Pastures of Panchal range during summer season, where they relish natural live, tribal system, traditional food and melodious folk songs. This natural atmosphere, location-disadvantages and aloofness from the modern life although made this community economically backward but their unique tribal culture and distinct heritage remain preserved which is rarely available elsewhere in the world.

Due to the happenings of 1947 which divided Jammu and Kashmir into two parts through the line ran cutting across the heart of Pir Panchal region; conflicts with Pakistan during 1965 and 1971; shelling and firing from across LoC and militancy related activities, this tribal community remained the main victim of this unfavourable scenario. About 17,000 families of Gujjar tribes had crossed LoC during this period and migrated to PaK leaving behind their blood relations on this side which made it difficult for their to settle on other side of line. They had very limited source of income for survival. On the other hand the Gujjars already existing in PaK were also economically weaker as compared to the other communities. Therefore this community was not in apposition to walk with the other ethnic groups residing there who have full control on administration, trade and agriculture. No doubt that religious affinity and malice propaganda from the other side had attracted them but in the modern world only religion is not a binding factor. The economic ties and social upliftments are considered the main factor which can lead the communities towards prosperity.

The Gujjars in PaK are not in majority and they are considered economically weaker then the other tribes. Therefore they remain dominated by the other communities and so could not protect their cultural as well as linguistic identity. Now when the doors on LoC have been opened, the dividing families have started pouring in on both the sides. People to people contacts have been established after 7, November 2005 between the dividing families residing Poonch and Rajouri and other side of LoC. The hard facts started coming into fore. Most of the Gujjars who have visited their native places in Poonch and Rajouri have narrated hard realities about the conditions of Gujjars residing on the other side which are the eye opening for the same community living on the other side.

Choudhary Mohammad Sharief a Gujjar and shopkeeper in Trar Khal in PaK and originally native of village Kanuyian in Poonch who visited Poonch through trans-LoC bus service says that the Gujjar identity is on the brink of vanish on other side.

&#8220;The symbols of our culture like folk songs, folk music, traditions addresses and age old rituals are missing on the other sides which are well visible in Jammu and Kashmir&#8221;, says Sharief. Majority of Gujjars have forgotten the life of Dhoks and Mergs which forms the essential part of their heritage.

Abdul Ghani &#8211;a teacher also from Trar Khal and a native of Rajouri &#8211;says, &#8220;I am immensely pleased to see my relatives working on significant positions in the government and holding important positions in the political parties in Jammu and Kashmir&#8221;. However, he says, &#8220;I am equally sad when I put this scenario in comparison to the life we are leading in Azad Kashmir&#8221;. He adds, &#8220;I feel one major factor which has contributed to the welfare of Gujjars here in Jammu and Kashmir is the right to equal opportunities and avenues and further special privileges of reservation under the provisions of Scheduled Tribe&#8221;. Such privileges are not available to this community on the other side of LoC.

Another Gujjar passenger who visited Poonch from Trar Khar -Mohammad Rauf is surprised to see the communal harmony, brotherhood and composite culture between Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs in this side but in *** even in Muslim community the Gujjars are not considered at par with the original habitants and landlords. As far as Gojri language is concerned, Rauf says, &#8220;no body dares to speak Gojri in Bazaras and public functions in any part of Pakistan administered Kashmir as it is spoken freely on this side. The regular publications of Gojri book like Sheraza, Mahro Adab, Shingra Ki Rani by the Jammu and Kashmir Cultural academy is marvelous contribution towards the mother tongue of Gujjars. Among the non-governmental organisations, the work of Gurjar Desh Charitable Turst, Gojri Anjumans and Gojri programmes from Radio are a serious and sustained contribution towards preservation of this ethnic and linguistic identity in Jammu and Kashmir.


On the other side of LoC, there is no such Government institution or civil society effort for the promotion of Gojri language and the Gujjar tribe. Even the Gojri writers of that side like Rana Fazal Rajourivi have got their books published through J&K Cultural Academy. &#8220;Except some individuals efforts no literary work for the development of Gojri language have been done in Azad Kashmir&#8221; says Rauf.

Another visitor, Choudhary Mohammad Bashir, who born in Surankote but migrated across LoC in 1965 and now working as District Qazi in Kotli District says that he feels isolated in Pakistan administered Kashmir because Gujjars inhibitions even in speaking their mother tongue and practicing their cultural ethos under pressure from other dominant communities. Unlike in Jammu and Kashmir, Gujjars in Pakistan occupied Kashmir do not use their surname &#8216;Choudhary&#8217; as it identifies them and consequently earns them hatred of others.
An old Gujjar Master Abdul Latief of Bandi Abasspur in Pakistan administered Kashmir who had come to meet his relatives in the village Kalai of Poonch district is candid enough in saying that the ethnic, cultural and linguistic identity of Gujjars have been completely diluted on other side as he described this as State sponsored hatred against this tribe. &#8220;Their economic condition is vulnerable, most of the Gujjars are illiterate and working as land tillers and shepherds&#8221;, says Latief.

Apart from the economic disparities, the main problem faced by the Gujjars across LoC is the marriages of their children. On this account, the sufferings of Gujjars are so enormous that they are considered a sort of social outcaste and members of other communities do not enter into wedlock with the Gujjars. This social disparity has some in a serious problem for Gujjars who neither can marry their girls to boys of other communities and nor can get girls for their boys. A majority of the Gujjar visitors from Pakistan administered Kashmir have been making vehement appeals to the government and seeking support from the civil society that they should be allowed to have nuptial relations with their community members in Jammu and Kashmir. If this does not happen, the Gujjar tribe may face extinction in Pakistan administered Kashmir in the near future.


*This state of affairs explains the condition of Gujjars in Pakistan administered Kashmir which have come to fore after opening of the trans-LoC links.*

_Author is Editor-in-Chief, Epilogue monthly current affairs magazine on Jammu and Kashmir and news portal Epilogue He can be reached at editor.epilogue@gmail.com _


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## Omar1984

EjazR said:


> OK Omar if that makes you happy good for you.
> 
> Delusions is not reality. Hope you can understand that.
> 
> The reality is that Geelani "saab" actually said that Gujjars are not muslims. Just because they don't support his "movement".
> 
> That the valley sepratists shouted slogans like Gujjar Gujjar hai hai just because they are pro-India.
> 
> Just two articles for you to read, and you will find many more if you want to
> 
> *Is it a sin to be a Gujjar?*
> *Gujjar, Bakerwal students reject Geelanis statement*



I'm not going to read indian news sources who are trying to divide Muslims. They are trying to divide Gujars from Kashmiris like they are trying to divide Shias from Sunnis, but it will never work.

You have to meet real life people, not read biased news from a country that keeps most of its troops far away up north in a disputed territory for 63 years denying freedom to the inhabitants of the land.


All Muslim Gujjars regard Chaudhry Rahmat Ali as a hero and will always side with Pakistan. Once referendum is given to all people of Jammu and Kashmir, you will see that the majority of Gujjar Muslims, Kashmiri Muslims, Sunni Muslims, and Shia Muslims will chose Pakistan over india. I know that would be the worst nightmare for you knowing that bharati muslims will then suffer once again in the hands of angry hindu mobs.

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## Omar1984

EjazR said:


> This state of affairs explains the condition of Gujjars in Pakistan administered Kashmir which have come to fore after opening of the trans-LoC links.



Total B.S. Gujjars rule Pakistan. We are everywhere in every field in Pakistan. Why would we hurt our own people in Azad Kashmir. A Gujar from Punjab province of Pakistan is exactly the same as a Gujar from Azad Kashmir or India Occupied Kashmir. We may differ from other clans of Punjab but not with our own people.


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## EjazR

Omar,
Can you speak Gojri? does Pakistan even recognise Gojri as a language?

Gujjar language and culture are more secure in India than Pakistan.

You can keep trying to make yourself happy with revisionist history but that will not change the facts.

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## Omar1984

EjazR said:


> Omar,
> Can you speak Gojri? does Pakistan even recognise Gojri as a language?
> 
> Gujjar language and culture are more secure in India than Pakistan.
> 
> You can keep trying to make yourself happy with revisionist history but that will not change the facts.



Gojri is like Pahari. We speak that in Pakistan also. 

The only Muslim Gujjars that india controls are in India Occupied Jammu and Kashmir. Indian side of Punjab and rest of india has sikh and hindu gujars who are different from us. they mix in their hindu rituals with the culture and are totally different.

In Pakistan, Gujars are everywhere. We are one of the largest clans in Pakistan especially in Punjab province and in Azad Kashmir. In every field in Pakistan you will find a Gujjar. What about india, how many have you seen in tamil nadu


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## LaBong

India needs to maneuver it's policy and politics so that a state with Muslim majority won't feel alienated from the rest of the country. But also some kinda Kashmiri racial supremacy also comes into equation in this case.


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## LaBong

> In Pakistan, Gujars are everywhere. We are one of the largest clans in Pakistan especially in Punjab province and in Azad Kashmir. In every field in Pakistan you will find a Gujjar. What about india, how many have you seen in tamil nadu



Sorry I didn't understand your logic. Pakistan though not as heterogeneous as India, has noticeable diversity. There are Pathans, Sindhis, Baloochs, Rajpoots, different clans of Punjabis, some Central Asians. Not sure if Gujjars are everywhere and in every fields. 

In India, gujjars are where they supposed to be and in positions where they deserved to be in. They can move to Tamil Nadu or any other state if they wish to. :s


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## EjazR

So Omar 

you dont speak Gojri then.

There are Gujjar muslims stretching from Gujrat - Rajasthan - Punjab Haryana to J&K.
The biggest group of Gujjar muslims in India are found in Rajasthan.

And I am not wrong when I say that pro-sepratists treat Gujjars with contempt. The links that I posted are from local J&K sources. One of them is a Gujjar muslim author from J&K Dr Javaid Rahi.


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## Omar1984

EjazR said:


> So Omar
> 
> you dont speak Gojri then.
> 
> There are Gujjar muslims stretching from Gujrat - Rajasthan - Punjab Haryana to J&K.
> The biggest group of Gujjar muslims in India are found in Rajasthan.
> 
> And I am not wrong when I say that pro-sepratists treat Gujjars with contempt. The links that I posted are from local J&K sources. One of them is a Gujjar muslim author from J&K Dr Javaid Rahi.



Gujratis Rajasthanis and the rest of you dravadians are totally different from Gujjars in Pakistan and Kashmir.


Majority of Gujjars in Pakistan speak Pahari, Hindko, Punjabi, and Pashto not anything what a rajasthani, gujrati, or any south indian speaks. We are distinct from hindustani gujratis and rest of south indians. And a Muslim Gujjar is very different from a hindu.


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## EjazR

*@Omar1984*

I think this will be last reply to you on this thread.
You have not and can not cite any source to prove any of these claims. You can't provide any proof that all Gujjars where with Jinnah let aone proof that Rajasthani Gujjars are not Gujjars. You dont even know what my ethnic make up is but you feel comfortable in making snide racist comments. A Dravidian muslim who is more pious than you is much better than you no matter how "good looking" you are. 

You have a racist mindset which is completely UnIslamic and have taken the thread completley offtopic. No wonder Indian Gujjars be they from Jammu Kashmri or Rajasthan e.t.c would never be a part of Pakistan were people like you are present. You can't even speak Gojri yet you claim to be Gujjar. You probably have no idea of Gujjar culture as Pakistan has done nothing to promote its language let along the culture. May God give help you and bless you in this month of Ramadan.

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## Omar1984

EjazR said:


> *@Omar1984*
> 
> I think this will be last reply to you on this thread.
> You have not and can not cite any source to prove any of these claims. You can't provide any proof that all Gujjars where with Jinnah let aone proof that Rajasthani Gujjars are not Gujjars. You dont even know what my ethnic make up is but you feel comfortable in making snide racist comments. A Dravidian muslim who is more pious than you is much better than you no matter how "good looking" you are.
> 
> You have a racist mindset which is completely UnIslamic and have taken the thread completley offtopic. No wonder Indian Gujjars be they from Jammu Kashmri or Rajasthan e.t.c would never be a part of Pakistan were people like you are present. You can't even speak Gojri yet you claim to be Gujjar. You probably have no idea of Gujjar culture as Pakistan has done nothing to promote its language let along the culture. May God give help you and bless you in this month of Ramadan.




HAHAHAAHHAHAHA here's a south indian dravadian telling me about my culture.


Are you going to write in Gojri now? Ask any Punjabi Pakistani and ask them what a Gujar speaks in Punjab province of Pakistan..Punjabi, Pahari, Hindko. Hardly anyone in Pakistan speaks gojri.

And yea, we are totally different from a rajasthani or gujrati, or any south indian like you


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## RobbieS

Omar1984 said:


> Gujratis Rajasthanis and the rest of you dravadians are totally different from Gujjars in Pakistan and Kashmir.
> 
> 
> Majority of Gujjars in Pakistan speak Pahari, Hindko, Punjabi, and Pashto not anything what a rajasthani, gujrati, or any south indian speaks. We are distinct from hindustani gujratis and rest of south indians. And a Muslim Gujjar is very different from a hindu.



Gujrat and Rajasthan are not in Dravidian India. But then again geography and history were never your strong areas.

And like other communities Gujjars can be found in more than one religion.


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## LaBong

EjazR said:


> *@Omar1984*
> 
> I think this will be last reply to you on this thread.
> You have not and can not cite any source to prove any of these claims. You can't provide any proof that all Gujjars where with Jinnah let aone proof that Rajasthani Gujjars are not Gujjars. You dont even know what my ethnic make up is but you feel comfortable in making snide racist comments. A Dravidian muslim who is more pious than you is much better than you no matter how *"good looking" * you are.
> 
> You have a racist mindset which is completely UnIslamic and have taken the thread completley offtopic. No wonder Indian Gujjars be they from Jammu Kashmri or Rajasthan e.t.c would never be a part of Pakistan were people like you are present. You can't even speak Gojri yet you claim to be Gujjar. You probably have no idea of Gujjar culture as Pakistan has done nothing to promote its language let along the culture. May God give help you and bless you in this month of Ramadan.



EjazR, while I agree with most things you said, I differ at the Bold part. What makes the Aryan notion of beauty (comparatively pale complexion) an universal concept of beauty. Historically the ones with more colored complexion(Krishna, Krishna, Shyam etc.) are considered beautiful in Indian literature. Only after British occupation, Indian society picked up this screwed colonial hangover of fair and lovely. 

But I guess you agree with me on this, as you put the bold part in quotations.


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## roach

Omar1984 said:


> HAHAHAAHHAHAHA here's a south indian dravadian telling me about my culture.
> 
> 
> Are you going to write in Gojri now? Ask any Punjabi Pakistani and ask them what a Gujar speaks in Punjab province of Pakistan..Punjabi, Pahari, Hindko. Hardly anyone in Pakistan speaks gojri.
> 
> And yea, we are totally different from a rajasthani or gujrati, or any south indian like you



Wow dude, you started off this thread as level-headed, but have revealed yourself as ignorant, stubborn and a bigoted racist.

"And yea, we are totally different from a rajasthani or gujrati, or any south indian like you"???????????

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## GUNNER

*Student Protestor Shot Dead In Indian Kashmir*

*SRINAGAR, India, Sept 6, 2010* - A teenage student was killed Monday when Indian security forces opened fire on stone-throwing protesters during fresh demonstrations against Indian-rule in Kashmir, police said.

A total 66 protesters and bystanders have been killed over the past three months, mostly by security forces who have used live ammunition on rallies after being pelted with stones.

The latest death occurred in Palhalan, about 30 kilometres (18 miles) north of the state summer capital Srinagar, police said.

He said one protester died on the spot while five others were wounded.

The fresh death brought more people out on the streets of Palhalan, chanting pro-independence slogans, witnesses said.

For nearly three months, crowds of young Kashmiris have defied curfews and pelted stones at the hundreds of thousands of security forces that India uses to keep a grip on the volatile region.

Last Monday, an 11-year-old boy was shot dead by police in the southern town of Anantnag during a violent demonstration against New Delhi's rule in the Muslim-majority region. 

Government forces have struggled to contain the outpouring of anger triggered by the killing of a schoolboy by police in early June. Protests began in the main town of Srinagar and have spread through the Kashmir valley.


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## RollingStones

Omar1984 said:


> First of all Jammu and Kashmir is not india. Its a disputed territory recognized by the UN and the entire international community as a disputed territory. Secondly, Muslim Gujjars all over the world are the same people. We have the same blood, same religion, same traditions, same history, same names. We are exactly the same, no matter if we are in India Occupied Jammu and Kashmir or in Azad Kashmir or in Punjab province of Pakistan. We are the same. You are a south indian and got absolutely nothing to do with Muslim Gujjars.



Sorry...America does NOT recognize J&K as a disputed territory. America recognizes the LoC as the de facto border. UN resolutions are defunct. International Courts have held that resolutions have to be acted upon and implemented within reasonable time frames for them to be meaningful. Therefore, legally these resolutions are invalid. These are not treaties. Resolutions have no legal meaning. Just making sure that you are legally up to snuff.

Also, I briefly looked at the bilateral agreements between India and Pakistan and there seems to be something called the Shimla Agreement between the two countries which overrides the UN resolutions. The legal language in it is a bit ambiguous but there are sections in it which clearly bind Pakistan to recognizing the LoC as the de facto border and NOT violate its sanctity. In fact, the Kargil violation could have been taken by India to an international court and India would have won a hefty sanction against pakistan because the Shimla agreement is a legally binding Treaty, which has tremendous legal standing unlike the UN resolutions. Pakistan and Pakistanis have to be careful here. if India takes Pakistan to International court over Kashmir, it will surely WIN. Treaties will be upheld in almost all courts of the world.In fact, I can sue Pakistan in a NY City court for Kashmir violations and cite the Shimla agreement the US Court will have no option but to pass an order against Pakistan. I just want to point out how international obligations and treaties work. 
Remember I am not talking about the WILL of the people here...just what is legal and what carries weight.

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## civfanatic

EjazR said:


> So Omar
> 
> you dont speak Gojri then.
> 
> There are Gujjar muslims stretching from Gujrat - Rajasthan - Punjab Haryana to J&K.
> The biggest group of Gujjar muslims in India are found in Rajasthan.
> 
> And I am not wrong when I say that pro-sepratists treat Gujjars with contempt. The links that I posted are from local J&K sources. One of them is a Gujjar muslim author from J&K Dr Javaid Rahi.



Ejaz Omar is correct in saying that there is not much diffrence in gojri, Dogri, pahari and punjabi .Although Idon't speak these languages I know quite a lot of people who speak gojri /pahari and dogri


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## HAIDER

SRINAGAR: Indian forces fired on protesters hurling stones at them in Indian-administered Kashmir on Monday, killing three people and wounding at least 17 other demonstrators, police said.

For the last three months, the mostly Muslim Kashmir region has been roiled by demonstrations and clashes between protesters opposed to Indian rule and government forces. The deaths bring to 68 the number of people killed in the civil unrest.

Three people, including a 17-year-old boy, were killed when Indian forces fired live ammunition to disperse protesters in Palhalan, a village north of Srinagar, said a police officer. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorised to release information to the media.

Local residents said there was no clash with the troops, but soldiers fired when the protesters refused to disperse. The state government has ordered a probe into the shooting incident.

A clash had occurred near a highway in the morning and much after that we were peacefully protesting in the village, said resident Merajuddin.

Later, as news of the shooting spread, thousands of people from Palhalan and neighboring villages chanting Go India, go back and We want freedom marched to a nearby highway and blocked it.

Police and paramilitary soldiers fired warning shots and tear gas to quell those protests, said the officer. There were no reports of injuries.

Police launched a probe into Monday's shooting. Senior police officers have taken a serious view of the firing. Ammunition of the policemen is being checked to fix the responsibility, an official statement said.

Anti-India sentiment runs deep in Kashmir, which is divided between India and Pakistan and claimed by both. Protesters reject Indian sovereignty over Kashmir and want independence or a merger with Pakistan.

The recent civil unrest is reminiscent of the late 1980s, when protests against New Delhi's rule in Kashmir sparked an armed conflict that has so far killed more than 68,000 people, mostly civilians.

Meanwhile, an Indian army spokesman said Monday that three suspected militants were killed in an exchange of gunfire in a remote forest in northern Handwara district of Kashmir.

No casualties were reported among the Indian soldiers, Lt. Col. J.S. Brar said in Srinagar.

There was no independent confirmation of the armys claim.  AP
DAWN.COM | World | Three killed as troops fire on protesters in Kashmir


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## foxbat

Regarding the terrorists killed
=========================
J&K: 7 militants killed in two separate encounters

Jammu: According to latest reports from Jammu and Kashmir, seven militants have been killed in two separate encounters.

Four militants were killed by the Army in Gurez sector in an ongoing operation while three militants were killed in Hafruda forest in Kupwara district.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

sissies at it again

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## Hafizzz

penumbra said:


> If i am correct, these people want to be free from Indian occupation and have their own land?
> 
> And why is Pakistani Kashmir not up in riots?



Because Pakistan treats her citizens well.

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## HAIDER

Well, the originally news is published by CBS. Not Pakistani media. Now the west is calling them protester..but Indian keep on insisting call every down protester a terrorist.

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## aj_tech123

HAIDER said:


> Well, the originally news is published by CBS. Not Pakistani media. Now the west is calling them protester..but Indian keep on insisting call every down protester a terrorist.


don't worry dude....till they(pro-pakistanis) stop protesting against india,
forces shall be killing them.....
coz if kashmir is given to pakistan then the whole india will protest..1.18 billion


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## sergente rehan

aj_tech123 said:


> don't worry dude....till they(pro-pakistanis) stop protesting against india,
> forces shall be killing them.....
> coz if kashmir is given to pakistan then the whole india will protest..1.18 billion



And this is your so called democracy?! kill who raise the voice and desire for freedom? opress anyone who question?! this is the true face of india....they always kill innocent civilians and when some raise this point they always hide behind lame excuses.


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## Karachiite

India is an insult to democracy and secularism.


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## ares

Aashiq said:


> India is an insult to democracy and secularism.



Ohhh jeez!!! so says, a person from a non democratic(largely) and non secular country.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

GUNNER said:


> *Student Protestor Shot Dead In Indian Kashmir*
> 
> *SRINAGAR, India, Sept 6, 2010* - A teenage student was killed Monday when Indian security forces opened fire on stone-throwing protesters during fresh demonstrations against Indian-rule in Kashmir, police said.
> 
> A total 66 protesters and bystanders have been killed over the past three months, mostly by security forces who have used live ammunition on rallies after being pelted with stones.
> 
> The latest death occurred in Palhalan, about 30 kilometres (18 miles) north of the state summer capital Srinagar, police said.
> 
> He said one protester died on the spot while five others were wounded.
> 
> The fresh death brought more people out on the streets of Palhalan, chanting pro-independence slogans, witnesses said.
> 
> For nearly three months, crowds of young Kashmiris have defied curfews and pelted stones at the hundreds of thousands of security forces that India uses to keep a grip on the volatile region.
> 
> Last Monday, an 11-year-old boy was shot dead by police in the southern town of Anantnag during a violent demonstration against New Delhi's rule in the Muslim-majority region.
> 
> Government forces have struggled to contain the outpouring of anger triggered by the killing of a schoolboy by police in early June. Protests began in the main town of Srinagar and have spread through the Kashmir valley.



how pathetic....bloody cowards

they also shot dead 3 bystanders today --2 of them were teenagers


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## Devil Soul

For the first time, securitymen kill more civilians than terrorists in J&K
Josy Joseph, TNN, Sep 7, 2010

NEW DELHI: As the central government looks at concrete steps to stem the tide of violence in Kashmir, statistics paint a worrisome picture of what is wrong in the Valley. For the first time since insurgency started in Jammu and Kashmir in the late 80s, more civilians have been killed by security forces than terrorists. 

This sudden twist in the reality of Kashmir should weigh heavily in their minds as the Prime Minister and his senior colleagues assemble for a Cabinet Committee on Security meeting later this week to chalk out a strategy to deal with the upsurge in street protests and casualties in firing by the security forces. According to the latest statistics, the number of civilians killed in firings by security forces is almost three times the number of those killed in actions by terrorists. A total of 27 civilians have died in terrorist attacks this year till date, while 68 civilians have died in actions by security forces. 

The chilling statistics tell the story of 2010 -- a year that saw most traditional parameters, such as the number of incidents and casualties, for measuring Kashmir violence hitting rock bottom. Even in 2008, when the Amarnath land agitation hit both Jammu and Kashmir regions, out of the total of 147 civilians killed in the year only 57 died in actions by security forces. The rest of the killings, 90, were in terrorist actions. 

In 2009, of the total 83 civilians killed in the state, only 11 had died in actions by security forces. But the figures of 2010 till date show how significantly the situation has turned away from historical realities, how the security forces have literally become the "biggest perpetrators" of violence in the state. 

Officials point out that in the mid-90s when violence in Kashmir peaked and a few thousand civilians used to be annually killed, only less than 10% deaths were officially attributed to excesses by security forces. 

It is in the light of this startling turnaround in the Kashmir situation that the PM is convening the meeting of the CCS later this week. The government would be looking at several steps in the political and security spheres to assuage the high level of resentment among people in the Valley. Among the possible steps are a joint parliamentary delegation to Kashmir, some conciliatory steps on the Armed Forces Special Powers Act and further administrative changes. 

However, the CCS could see the Army putting up a strong defence of AFSPA saying its withdrawal would have adverse impact on the situation. Army top brass has in recent days pointed out to the government their experience of Manipur, where withdrawal of AFSPA from urban centres led to a surge in violence in those areas. 

Meanwhile, many quarters within the government are questioning the sort of decisions being taken by both the local police and CRPF in handling the crowd protests in the state. For example, many point out that it is the sparsely populated posts of CRPF that are often at the receiving end of stone pelting, which forces the scared CRPF personnel to open fire. "We need to seriously look at the need for these posts in sensitive localities," says a senior official. 

Another argued that the government needs to study the crowd control patterns of the state police and CRPF. "Are they really following SOPs for crowd control? I doubt it," he said. 

For the first time, securitymen kill more civilians than terrorists in J&K - India - The Times of India


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## bandit

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> how pathetic....bloody cowards
> 
> they also shot dead 3 bystanders today --2 of them were teenagers



Cowards, yeah sure...they should have let themselves be killed by stone-throwing 'peaceful protesters' to show their valor and become a shaheed.


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## Jade

SRINAGAR: Despite reports of desertions in its ranks and threats of social boycott, J&K police has emerged as a big draw for young job hunters in employment-starved Kashmir. *Ignoring calls by hardliners to shun the khaki force, nearly 60,000 men applied for less than 3,000 jobs in J&K police -- about 200 applicants for one constable's post. *

The applications piled up over the last few months, about the time when the situation in the Valley appeared to be spinning out of control with the cops particularly being at the receiving end of public wrath. 

J&K police DG Kuldeep Khoda said the department has received 58,975 applications, against 2,786 vacancies across the Valley. "The response from (the worst-hit) Srinagar and Budgam districts was even more heartening," he said. "We've received 2,860 applications, against 529 posts in Srinagar district, while 8053 against 283 in Budgam," he said. 

*Lack of jobs has been a big spur for the protests that brought thousands of young educated men on to the streets.* Official estimates of the number of unemployed in the Valley stands at 3 lakhs. 

Khoda told reporters the department held a recruitment rally in Baramulla district in July and was overwhelmed with the response. "Over 8,000 people turned up for 412 posts despite turmoil in the district,"* he said, and added that even stone-pelters attended the rally.* He said the department was mulling more on-the-spot recruitment drives across the Valley, particularly in Srinagar's downtown area to end the unrest. 

*The top cop rubbished reports on desertions and insubordination. He claimed no police personnel had quit since mid-June when Kashmir erupted in anger* against the alleged staged encounter of three north Kashmir youth and a 17-year-old boy's killing in police action. Over 60 people, including women and children, have died in police firing on protesters since then. 

State government sources said J&K CM Omar Abdullah, who has called for a proactive approach including the phased revocation of the controversial Armed Forces Special Forces Act to deal with street protests, has ordered creation of more police jobs to induct youth from the troubled areas.

Meanwhile, in its ongoing drive to reach out to the people, Kashmir range IGP Kashmir, S M Sahai, attended police-public meetings in Ganderbal and Budgam districts. "At Ganderbal District Police Lines, around 300 people including senior citizens and sarpanchs participated," a police spokesman said. "Sahai assured the people that police will adopt maximum restraint while dealing with law and order situations."

--------------------------------------------

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## DESERT FIGHTER

bandit said:


> Cowards, yeah sure...they should have let themselves be killed by stone-throwing 'peaceful protesters' to show their valor and become a shaheed.



How many cowards occupiers have died by stones since the protests started and how many KASHMIRIS have attained Shahadat?


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## Coltsfan

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> How many cowards occupiers have died by stones since the protests started and how many KASHMIRIS have attained Shahadat?



Is that a rhetorical question?

You are not gonna believe Indian figures of # of terrorists killed by Indian security forces anyways. Why ask a question when you don't wanna know the answer?


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## zagahaga

wow that how much you made em desperate


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Coltsfan said:


> Is that a rhetorical question?
> 
> You are not gonna believe Indian figures of # of terrorists killed by Indian security forces anyways. Why ask a question when you don't wanna know the answer?



Have some shame! 

These young protesters who want FREEDOM since 63 years r terrorists?

Tell me the near 100 young kashmiri boys u indians have killed in these past few weeks how many indian barbarians have they killed with *STONES OF MASS DESTRUCTION*?


150000 KASHMIRIS HAVE BEEN MARTYRED BY INDIANS SINCE 47!

Think any human would atleast not lie to himself or just satisfy himself with false B.S!


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## muse

*BJP asks Singh not to bow down before IHK militants*

NEW DELHI: A four-member Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) delegation led by former Indian opposition leader *Lal Krishna Advani *on Monday called on Indian Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh, urging him *not to bow down *before the militants in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK). 

The BJP delegation *told Singh that conceding state autonomy or self-rule to the Kashmiris would only be an interim step towards full independence,* which the citizens of India would never accept. The separate and special status given to Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) in the constitution has already led to separatism and* any step to be taken by the union government must be judged on the touchstone of whether it will fully integrate the state with India or will it further weaken the political and constitutional relationship of IHK with India*, the delegation said in a statement. 

The opposition party delegation expressed its concern over the serious situation prevailing in the state for the last three months, which had been slipping out of control as the union government had no clear action plan to deal with it and hence the fear rose that the union govt might bow down before the militants that would further weaken IHKs integration with the union of India.

*Let us not mislead ourselves. The demand for autonomy, self-rule or dilution of the union governments authority have nothing to do with the present problem in IHK*, said a statement by the delegation, which included opposition members *Arun Jaitley*, *Sushma Swaraj *and *SS Ahluwalia*. *If you analyse the nature of the present demands, they are all intended to weaken Indias sovereignty. Dilution of the armys presence in the valley and allowing legitimacy to infiltration are only examples of this kind*, the statement said. iftikhar gilani



Pakistani readers are invited to remember the names highlighted in blue.


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## Novice09

Aashiq said:


> India is an insult to democracy and secularism.



Yes India is an insult to democracy and following are the reasons:

1. We are facing military coup in each decade since our Independence.
2. We don't know who is governing us, Military or elected government.
3. We have the *Right to Information* Act, 2005.
4. We have *lokayukta* to keep check on corruption. This is in early stages, we will strengthen our lokayuktas.
5. we have NREGA (National Rural Employment Guarantee Act) which provides a *legal guarantee for one hundred days of employment* in every financial year.


Yes India is an insult to secularism and following are the reasons:

1. Our Prime Minister is a Sikh.
2. Even after having more than 80% Hindus we decided to be a secular state. The government does not favour or discriminate any religion.


I have some real a$$ kicking replies but since my ban is just revoked  I refrain to put them on thread  ...


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## somebozo

No wonder the kashmirs are rioting against India..it deprives them and turns them destitute..then claims economic suppression on random strikes and terrorist...any occupying power keen to win hearts and mind always give priority to economic development..south and north korea, east and west germany, taiwan and china cannot be held apartheid if it was not simple economic maths..The Kashmiri handicraft industry is openly exploited by cunning businessmen for pennies on dollar.


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## Novice09

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Have some shame!
> 
> These young protesters who want FREEDOM since 63 years r terrorists?



Dear Friend, on light note... how can a 63 year old could be a *young* protester. 

The only resolution of Kashmir issue is genuine talks between three parties...
1. Kashmiris (including the people from Jammu and Laddhak)
2. GoI
3. GoP  and Pakistani Army 

Though some people believes that it can be achieved by violence and get tit for tat. after that they cry for human rights.



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Let me the near 100 young kashmiri boys u indians have killed did they carry STONES OF MASS DESTRUCTION?



Let me clarify most of them were killed by the *LOCAL POLICE
*. As far as I know they are also Kashmiris.

You can tag them as you want but for me *they are the peacekeepers.
*



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> 150000 KASHMIRIS HAVE BEEN MARTYRED BY INDIANS SINCE 47!
> 
> Think any human would atleast not lie to himself or just satisfy himself with false B.S!



Yes I never lie to myself the reason behind the all menace in J&K is the incompetency of GoI. but my reasons are different from yours...


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Novice09 said:


> Yes India is an insult to democracy and following are the reasons:
> 
> 2. We don't know who is governing us, Military or elected government.



Sadly thts true!

Limited nuclear war,2 front war mental masterbation n other brain farts!



> 3. We have the *Right to Information* Act, 2005.



No wonder u dont show Pakistani television and international journalists r not allowed in IOK!




> 4. We have *lokayukta* to keep check on corruption. This is in early stages, we will strengthen our lokayuktas.



Wats lokayukta? Also there are several threads where indians are claiming of indian politicians having crores of R.S in foriegn accounts!



> 5. we have NREGA (National Rural Employment Guarantee Act) which provides a *legal guarantee for one hundred days of employment* in every financial year.



Yet more then 500 million indians live under poverty line!
Half kids are malnourished,50-65% population doesnt have access to bathrooms!AIDS is rampants,Prostitutes r in millions! etc etc




> *Yes India is an insult to secularism *and following are the reasons:
> 
> 1. Our Prime Minister is a Sikh.
> 2. Even after having more than 80% Hindus we decided to be a secular state. The government does not favour or discriminate any religion.



The high lighted part is 101% true!
A SECULAR STATE where 5000 Muslims are killed in Gujrat Babri Mosque is ...., culprits r still on lose!CM Modi is havin fun!

Christians r prosecuted in Orissa!churches r burnts and so are several hundred christians,women r raped etc!

Golden temple is bombarded in return indra is killed by her own sikh body guards!

Hindus tell others to remain younger brothers as Older brothers r hindus!

A senior Muslim minister is sacked for raising a voice on kurkuray case!

Samjhota express is burnt by serving indian army officier! etc etc
Shiv sena,bajrang dal etc etc

NOBDY IS ARRESSTED ... etc etc




> I have some real a$$ kicking replies but since my ban is just revoked  I refrain to put them on thread  ...



Well u must be banned for using cheap,offensive B.S otherwise there is a truck load of ur kind on PDF!

And about *** kicking replies* kindly dont derail the thread *coz we have some really bad arse replies tht will hurt ur ego!


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## bandit

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> How many cowards occupiers have died by stones since the protests started and how many KASHMIRIS have attained Shahadat?



You want them to die first before we take any action? Sadly doesnt work that ways. Firing at peaceful protesters maybe wrong, at stone-pelting riotous mob is not.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Novice09 said:


> Dear Friend, on light note... how can a 63 year old could be a *young* protester.



Funny comeback!but my signal was towards the generations tht have been suffering since 47 by ur hands!

The only resolution of Kashmir issue is genuine talks between three parties...
1. Kashmiris (including the people from Jammu and Laddhak)
2. GoI
3. GoP  and Pakistani Army [/QUOTE]

Well the hindu majority areas belong to the pundits rest to kashmiris the fate of Kashmir should be resolved according to the wishes of Kashmiris!




> Though some people believes that it can be achieved by violence and get tit for tat. after that they cry for human rights.



And whom r u pointing towards? the armed movement for kashmiri was stopped long ago and yaseen malik n his people r trying to resolve it on table arent they? 




> Let me clarify most of them were killed by the *LOCAL POLICE
> *. As far as I know they are also Kashmiris.



Sir ur muslims dont even make 1 or 2% of indian armed forces!
And ur keeping 750000 soldiers in kashmir which is also the worlds most highly militarised zone!! Thts a fact!



> You can tag them as you want but for me *they are the peacekeepers.
> *



Wat peace keepers? heck UN even told em to stop wearing UN tagged helmets!! They r indian soldiers!




> Yes I never lie to myself the reason behind the all menace in J&K is the incompetency of GoI. but my reasons are different from yours...



Give the KASHMIRIS the right to decide their FATE.


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## Novice09

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Sadly thts true!
> 
> Limited nuclear war,2 front war mental masterbation n other brain farts!



Freedom of speech at its best 




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> No wonder u dont show Pakistani television and international journalists r not allowed in IOK!



In India, RTI is for Indians with some limitations 



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Wats lokayukta? Also there are several threads where indians are claiming of indian politicians having crores of R.S in foriegn accounts!



Yes I know that only India is suffering from corruption....
You have just 1 10%, we have hundreds....

I seriously agrees with you that we have some of the most corrupted people in India and its not easy to end the corruption but we are trying hard to restrict it.



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Yet more then 500 million indians live under poverty line!
> Half kids are malnourished,50-65% population doesnt have access to bathrooms!*AIDS is rampants,Prostitutes r in millions! etc etc*



These schemes were not launched for the benefit of Tata's and Birla's. These schemes are meant for the people you have listed above (except the highlighted ones).

We are not just purchasing weapons 




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> The high lighted part is 101% true!
> A SECULAR STATE where 5000 Muslims are killed in Gujrat Babri Mosque is ...., culprits r still on lose!CM Modi is havin fun!
> 
> Christians r prosecuted in Orissa!churches r burnts and so are several hundred christians,women r raped etc!
> 
> Golden temple is bombarded in return indra is killed by her own sikh body guards!
> 
> Hindus tell others to remain younger brothers as Older brothers r hindus!
> 
> A senior Muslim minister is sacked for raising a voice on kurkuray case!
> 
> Samjhota express is burnt by serving indian army officier! etc etc
> Shiv sena,bajrang dal etc etc
> 
> NOBDY IS ARRESSTED ... etc etc



Modi is not alone...

Kasab and Afjal Guru are also enjoying their stay in India 
The motivator of those who chopped off the hands of university professor are also not arrested yet.

Nationalist Bro,

All these people are playing with the flaws of British era law which is still implemented in India.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Novice09 said:


> Freedom of speech at its best



Kindly get him checked by some good doc.




> In India, RTI is for Indians with some limitations



So RTI is just a B.S label i guess.
And Kashmiris and foriegn jpurnalists r not indian so i guess it doesnt apply on them!



> Yes I know that only India is suffering from corruption....
> You have just 1 10&#37;, we have hundreds....I seriously agrees with you that we have some of the most corrupted people in India and its not easy to end the corruption but we are trying hard to restrict it.



So now ur lokayukta is also flawed like RTI?

We also have azzholes like nawaz and lots of corrupt bastards in government hidding billions of $$ in swiss banks n palaces abroad!





> These schemes were not launched for the benefit of Tata's and Birla's. These schemes are meant for the people you have listed above (except the highlighted ones
> We are not just purchasing weapons








> Modi is not alone...
> 
> Kasab and Afjal Guru are also enjoying their stay in India



Double standards!! U give government to a mass murderer and death sentence to lil muderers who wernt even part of ur govt in the past nor present!
Also its Afzal not afjal.


> The motivator of those who chopped off the hands of university professor are also not arrested yet.



Who cares man tht was 1 professor these b...tards have killed thousands or hundreds!



> Nationalist Bro,
> 
> All these people are playing with the flaws of British era law which is still implemented in India.



So keep followin the bukin brit laws frm last century.


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## Novice09

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Well the *hindu* majority areas belong to the pundits rest to kashmiris the fate of Kashmir should be resolved according to the wishes of *Kashmiris*!



Hindu 
Muslims


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## Novice09

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Kindly get him checked by some good doc.



I cannot afford that


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## muse

This from todays Dawn: And please no protests by "secular India" and all that - Mr. Naqvi asks penetrating questions, ones which
we should all ask ourselves and see that this situation cannot go on and a new realtionship is a existential imperative


*Kashmirs struggle and the injustices *
By Jawed Naqvi 
Monday, 06 Sep, 2010 


*A particularly disturbing slogan heard in the Kashmir Valley, where its young school-goers and old patriarchs, angry women and restive youth are courageously defying Indian rule, is enough to put off any sensitive sympathiser.* Bhooka nanga Hindustan; Jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Starving and tattered India we reject; Pakistan - land of our dreams - we embrace.)

This slogan conveys acute political bankruptcy in a region which has lived with naked military repression for more than 20 years. Im sure any Pakistani with a sense of justice would also be uncomfortable with the warped mindset the slogan betrays.

That Kashmir is reeling under Indian occupation is not a secret. That Pakistan has played a questionable role there is also well known. Yet, for Kashmiris to see their struggle as part of the many battles being waged by the poorest of the poor against the Indian states multi-pronged injustices against its own people, would not compromise or be a contradiction in Kashmirs struggle for self-determination. The simple question for Kashmiris to ask themselves is, isnt the same state that has killed 60 young Kashmiris in three months, also responsible for tens of thousands of suicides by indebted farmers in India? Does Sharmila Irom, who is fighting to repeal the law that gives unbridled powers to security forces in her Manipur state have no relevance for the same struggle in Kashmir?

The tribespeople of Chhatisgarh, Orissa, Jharkhand and West Bengal are fighting for their fundamental rights. One of their demands is that they not be evicted from their homes to accommodate corporate land grab. Is this not what Kashmiri Pandits suffered at the hands of the Indian state as well as non-state actors in their homeland without any redress from successive Indian governments that claim to represent them?

Indian Home Minister P. Chidambaram and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh have often cajoled dissident groups, including the banned Maoists, to come for talks within the constitutional framework. Why cant the affected groups simultaneously expose the insincerity of the Indian state? To take just one example, the preamble of the Indian constitution describes the nation as a socialist and secular republic.

Socialism is thus the law of the land. Which Indian government, including the one led by Chidambaram-Singh duo, has come anywhere close to keeping the promise of socialism? Just the opposite. Both have callously opened the country to the depredations of private capital.

I met a Kashmiri separatist a few days after the Babri masjid was razed in Ayodhya. He happened to be the only senior enough leader to be still dodging the police in Srinagar. The rest were in jail. He told me he didnt care for the plight of Indian Muslims in the wake of the Ayodhya outrage. _They have never helped the Kashmiris, so why should we bother with them_?

The explanation for his aloofness was ironical. How can we forget the senior Indian minister telling journalists during the Agra summit that if Kashmir was to be given to Pakistan on the basis of religious claims, should not the Indian Muslims then be packed off in special trains to Pakistan? Kashmiris and Indian Muslims may see themselves as separate entities with separate causes. But their detractors will always see them as one headache. Check this out with Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi who knows Indian Muslims as children of Mian Musharraf.

I put the question to some Kashmiri intellectuals in Delhi recently. I asked them how was it that a movement with international ramifications and wide support among a number of Muslim states could be so self-absorbed that it didnt have a policy much less a worldview about other peoples sufferings. Kashmiris did speak up once for the Palestinians, but now it seems they do not have the energy for even that. On the other hand, there is no dearth of seemingly unrelated groups that lend them moral support. A recent rally in Canada of Sikhs and Kashmiri activists, who protested against Indias brutality in the Valley, could be a case in point. A few weeks ago an obscure Tamil group in India issued a statement in support of Kashmiris. Do the Kashmiris want to know who the members of the Tamil group are?

There is something about this that reminds me of an interaction I once had with Gen Pervez Musharraf in Islamabad. He had just returned from a visit to Colombo where his government was giving military and political support to the government against Tamil rebels. I said how was the Tamil struggle any different from the Kashmiri movement since both stemmed from the denial of the right to self-determination. Gen Musharraf said he didnt want to comment on another countrys internal matter. So he too chose the injustice, which suited him most.

*Vidya Subrahmaniam of The Hindu has done an interesting comparison of three major pogroms in India, each fighting its own battle without getting involved with the sorrows of each other.

The Orissa violence, in which Hindu-Adivasis targeted Dalit Christians, was undoubtedly smaller in scale compared to Gujarat 2002 and Delhi 1984.* Despitevariations, the three pogroms could have been written, produced and directed by a single satanic mind, judging by the astonishing similarity in the detail and sequence of events and the stunning brutality of the crimes committed, *says Subrahmaniam.*
In his November 2002 foreword to the report of the Concerned Citizens Tribunal, which collected 2,094 oral and written testimonies from Gujarats victim-survivors as well as human rights groups, Justice V.R. Krishna Iyer said: The gravamen of this pogrom-like operation was that the administration reversed its constitutional role, and by omission and commission, engineered the loot, ravishment and murder which was methodically perpetrated through planned process 

Eight years later, as *Subrahmaniam notes, the jury at the Kandhamal Tribunal had similar words to say*: _The jury records its shock and deep concern for the heinous and brutal manner in which the members of the Christian community were killed, dismembered, sexually assaulted and tortured  There was rampant and systematic looting and destruction of houses and places of worship and means of livelihood  The jury is further convinced that the communal violence in Kandhamal was the consequence of a subversion of constitutional governance in which state agents were complicit._

_When, in the aftermath of Indira Gandhis 1984 assassination, thousands of Sikhs were massacred on the streets of Delhi, the commonly-held view was that it was an aberration brought about by an extraordinary situation. Comparisons were made with the 1947 Partition riots but few could have known at that time that the clinically planned and executed anti-Sikh pogrom would serve as a model for two more episodes of mass aggression against minorities_, The Hindu analysis said.

India has spawned a coalition of injustices. For those in the Kashmiri resistance to show solidarity with those fighting the same bloated, militarised state that they are, will not compromise their goal. It would only deepen their vision and sharpen their ideas of what kind of azadi they are fighting for.

jawednaqvi@gmail.com

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## RPK

*Seven militants killed in two separate encounters in Kashmir *


Srinagar, Sep. 6 (ANI): Seven militants were killed in two different encounters with the security forces in Jammu and Kashmirs&#8217; Gurez sector and Kupwara sector on Monday.

Four militants were killed during an operation in Gurez sector by the security forces.

According to a defence spokesman, three militants were killed in a gunbattle that took place earlier in the day in Jammu and Kashmir&#8217;s Kupwara District.

Last evening, the Army launched a combing operation in Afroda forest in Handwara, Lt Col J S Brar said.

Brar also said during the operation, militants fired at security forces who retaliated triggering a gunbattle in which three militants were killed. (ANI)



More at : Seven militants killed in two separate encounters in Kashmir

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## muse

When attempting to discuss issues rationally with our Indian forum members, our Indina forum members behave as if butter will not melt intheir mouth - "Democratic" and "Secular" is what we hear from them, and yet reality exposes something else - - Indian friends are advised to simply speak truthfully, it will maintain their crdibility, it's painful, but it makes the conversation real and truthful - no one, absolutely no one is without error in this mess -- so, please, please, spare us the "Democratic" and espceially the "Secular" bit - India's problems need not be something to hide from, look at Pakistan's experience, look what denial has led to - be different: 


September 05, 2010
*Three pogroms held together by a common thread*

(The Hindu, September 04, 2010)


by Vidya Subrahmaniam

*Secular, democratic India has seen pogroms against all three significant minorities  Sikhs, Muslims and Christians.*


The accounts of murder, arson, and crimes against women sounded horribly familiar: Each detail, each grisly fact seemed taken out of a script enacted before; the sequence of events was as predictable as the shattering, gut-wrenching climax.

*It was like a macabre replay of Gujarat 2002 and Delhi 1984, as 43 communal violence victims from Orissa  who had come all the way to the national Capital  testified recently before the National People's Tribunal on Kandhamal headed by A.P. Shah, former Chief Justice of the Delhi High Court. As the narratives ended, the audience was left with another chilling thought:* In secular, democratic India, there had been pogroms against all three significant minorities  Sikhs, Muslims and Christians.

Kanaka Rekha Nayak, from village Budedipada, spoke of her husband, Parikhita, being beaten up, murdered and quartered as her family helplessly watched (FIR no: 58 U/S 147/148/436/302/201/149 IPC, dated August 28 2008). Today, Kanaka is in hiding with her two minor children.

Priyatama Nayak, from village Barpalli, *said her husband, Abhimanyu, was tied to a tree and burnt alive in her presence*. Amidst religious chants the mob looted her house and destroyed it. Priyatama's young son went to the local police station and begged for help. The police reached the village 10 days later by which time dogs had preyed on Abhimanyu's body. (FIR no 90 u/s 147/148/436/506/302/149, dated August 31, 2008). And though Priyatama named her husband's killers in the FIR, the police made no arrests. In March 2009, following unceasing threats from those named in the FIR, Priyatama, who had also petitioned the Chief Minister and the Governor, took her case to the Orissa Human Rights Commission, which ordered the Kandhamal District Magistrate and the Superintendent of Police to hold an inquiry into the case and take action against the errant policemen.

Twenty-four-year-old Narsingho Digal from Dudukagaon testified that a 600-strong armed gang looted and destroyed his house. His mother was gang-raped and his parents were dragged into the forests and murdered. Narasingho, who  like many other Kandhamal Christians  faces a social boycott, said the rioters had made his conversion back to Hinduism a condition for his being allowed to return to his village.

*Many of the victims said they spotted Bharatiya Janata Party MLA Manoj Pradhan among the attackers*. In June this year, a fast-track court in Orissa sentenced Pradhan to seven years' rigorous imprisonment.

*The Orissa violence, which targeted Dalit-tribal Christians, was undoubtedly smaller in scale compared to Gujarat 2002 and Delhi 1984. Human rights estimates of deaths, damages and sexual violations are many times higher in all three cases, but going only by the government figures for the dead, there were 38 killed in Kandhamal in Orissa, 1,180 murdered (including Hindus killed in Godhra and in police firing) in the 15 affected districts of Gujarat, and 2,700 put to death in the national Capital*. Yet despite these variations, the three pogroms could have been written, produced and directed by a single satanic mind, judging by the astonishing similarity in the detail and sequence of events and the stunning brutality of the crimes committed.

Tribunal foreword

In his November 2002 foreword to the report of the Concerned Citizens Tribunal, which collected 2,094 oral and written testimonies from Gujarat's victim-survivors as well as human rights groups, Justice V.R. Krishna Iyer said: The gravamen of this pogrom-like operation was that the administration reversed its constitutional role, and by omission and commission, engineered the loot, ravishment and murder which was methodically perpetrated through planned process 

Eight years later, the jury at the Kandhamal Tribunal had similar words to say: The jury records its shock and deep concern for the heinous and brutal manner in which the members of the Christian community were killed, dismembered, sexually assaulted and tortured  There was rampant and systematic looting and destruction of houses and places of worship and means of livelihood  The jury is further convinced that the communal violence in Kandhamal was the consequence of a subversion of constitutional governance in which state agents were complicit.

Action-reaction' theory

When, in the aftermath of Indira Gandhi's 1984 assassination, thousands of Sikhs were massacred on the streets of Delhi, the commonly-held view was that it was an aberration brought about by an extraordinary situation. Comparisons were made with the 1947 Partition riots but few could have known at that time that the clinically planned and executed anti-Sikh pogrom would serve as a model for two more episodes of mass aggression against minorities.

Consider the features of the 1984 violence: Indira Gandhi's assassination by two Sikh guards was the action which justified the reactive killings. Rajiv Gandhi's insensitive equation of the mob rage to tremors arising from a falling tree was taken as licence by the rioters to plunder, **** and kill. Members of the ruling establishment lent tacit support to the killings, and in some instances were seen directing the violence. The police abandoned their protective instincts, becoming either bystanders or collaborators in the crimes. The hooligans did not just kill, they used innovative techniques to kill, such as fitting burning car tyres over the necks of little, helpless children. In the days following the anti-Sikh orgy, the community was further victimised by an unwritten social boycott.

As in Delhi, so in Gujarat and Orissa. Delhi 1984 went beyond an eye for an eye to justify the extermination of an entire community for the perceived crimes of a handful. It established the legitimacy of the administration and the police slipping into supporting roles in mob violence. It also established that killing was not enough, killing must be perverse. In Gujarat, Muslims as a whole had to pay for Godhra. Here too, the action-reaction theory was propounded at the highest level, with the police and the administration wilfully abdicating their duties.

The testimonies recorded by the Krishna Iyer Tribunal brought out the sadistic, bestial nature of the Gujarat killings: The widespread violence that targeted Muslims in urban and rural Gujarat was marked by utter bestiality and brutality  Evidence recorded before us shows how in the macabre dance of death, human beings were quartered and the killing protracted while the terrorised survivors looked on  *Violence over, the majority community enforced a social and economic boycott against Muslims*.

In the action-reaction sequence in Orissa, rioters targeted the Dalit-tribal Christian community for revenge killings despite the lack of direct evidence linking the community to the murder of Swami Lakshmanananda Saraswati. Here the Chief Minister, to his credit, did not justify the killings. On the contrary, he appeared contrite and eventually broke his ties with the Bharatiya Janata Party. Yet during the violence, the levers of administration remained cruelly unresponsive to the cries of Kandhamal's Christian citizenry. As in Delhi and Gujarat, the victims found the police curiously missing or standing by, when the mobs, armed to the teeth and shouting inflammatory slogans, went on the rampage. The torture and violence were again extreme; murder was by burning alive, by dismembering the person. And as previously, the violence was followed by a crippling social boycott.

Abuse of women

All three pogroms had another common feature: Rampant abuse of women. Women were gang-raped, invariably in front of their families, not for sexual gratification but as a demonstration of power, to heap humiliation on male relatives. At the hearing organised by the Kandhamal Tribunal, Vrinda Grover, a member of the jury, remarked that the Orissa rioters had used women's bodies as sites for punishment. The Hindu of September 30, 2008 reported the case of a Catholic nun who was stripped naked and brutally gang-raped in front of a police post with 12 policemen from the Orissa State Armed Police present and watching. The Catholic priest who was with her was mercilessly thrashed for refusing to participate in the atrocity. Incidents of **** in Gujarat 2002 have been too well documented to bear repetition here.

But here again, the trend was set 26 years ago in Delhi. Until recently, the dominant perception about 1984 was that the mob violence largely spared the women.

The myth was conclusively demolished in 2007 following publication of the painstakingly documented book, When a tree shook Delhi. Lifting the veil of silence over the **** cases, authors Manoj Mitta and H.S. Phoolka pieced together evidence placed before the Nanavati Commission to establish **** as a commonly used weapon in the anti-Sikh pogrom.

In one case, the rioters killed all the men in the family, raped the woman of the house in front of her young son, and left her naked so that she could not go out to save the child when he too was dragged out and burnt alive (case reported in Manushi magazine and submitted to the Commission).

The Kandhamal tribunal, as the Krishna Iyer tribunal before it, noted the institutionalised bias of State agencies, their deliberate dereliction of constitutionally mandated duties, their connivance with communal forces, participation in and support to the violence, and a deliberate scuttling of the processes of justice  Each of the findings applied to Delhi 1984 as well.

Perhaps that is why, a questioner asked the jury of the Kandhamal tribunal, if it was not a shame that 26 years after 1984  and two more pogroms later * India was still trying to find a solution to planned violence against minorities*.


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## brahmastra

@ muse 
what are you trying to prove?


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## Kharavela

Yes man...every one knows both sides of story about Kashmir...but the point is why pakistan friends are shouting about it???? Okay let us accept for a moment that we indian have all the bad things in this world???But are you sane either???? I dont want to list down all the things that is happening in pakistan since its inception....

Yes it is true that some section of people in Kashmir dont want to be part of India...but if you ask to baloch people if they want to stay with Pakistan...you also know what will be their answer...but then are you going to provide freedom to them???....It does not work like this way my dear....and realting kashmir...the fact is ....if you will be nice to me then of course i will be nice....but if kashmiri separatist thinks that they want to dance in tune of pakistan.....let them face the music...its upto them to decide....we have waited for 65 years....India has grown leaps and bound within this 65 year to an economic power with baggage of kashmir on its back...so we can wait for another couple of generations to wipe out terrorism from Kashmir....but yes...fact is pakistan already got separated in name of kashmir....if you want to behave like this then who knows ...God forbid ....another blow will happen to you...


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## muse

Kharavela

Come on now -- *Bhooka nanga Hindustan; Jaan se pyaara Pakistan.*


Who in Balouchistan is crying out for "Jaan se pyara Hindustan"??

These are two seperate issues, one is a 1947 issue, the other is a states rights issue.

All the time Indians claim that they are our ancestors, that we are the same people -- and then they turn around and say "Muslims broke our country" -- If you mean we were one people then it was as much the Muslims to do with as it was Hindus to do with, right? And it's for captive Kashmiris to decide, not somebody in southern India - yes, it's a deeply emotional issue - but all this talk of "face the music" might come to haunt you - remember we are all naked in this bathhouse.

The issue is deeply emotive on all sides because it goes back to 47 - we all have our own version of the narrative of 47 - so, lets keep the temperature down, if not we will all get burnt, even Southern India.


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## Kharavela

muse said:


> Kharavela
> 
> Come on now -- *Bhooka nanga Hindustan; Jaan se pyaara Pakistan.*
> 
> 
> Who in Balouchistan is crying out for "Jaan se pyara Hindustan"??
> 
> These are two seperate issues, one is a 1947 issue, the other is a states rights issue.
> 
> All the time Indians claim that they are our ancestors, that we are the same people -- and then they turn around and say "Muslims broke our country" -- If you mean we were one people then it was as much the Muslims to do with as it was Hindus to do with, right? And it's for captive Kashmiris to decide, not somebody in southern India - yes, it's a deeply emotional issue - but all this talk of "face the music" might come to haunt you - remember we are all naked in this bathhouse.
> 
> The issue is deeply emotive on all sides because it goes back to 47 - we all have our own version of the narrative of 47 - so, lets keep the temperature down, if not we will all get burnt, even Southern India.



]Bhooka nanga Hindustan; Jaan se pyaara Pakistan.[/B]


This is the dirtiest joke i have ever heard....Come on dear...India is not going around the USA/China/Gulf/UN for feeding its people in flood and cutting paycheck for your people........t

But just to mention you....we have thousand bad things....but still then world better knows that within 65 years where does india stands in comparison to Pakstan...

Of course you are right....no body is crying for India...that is the funniest part...as i completely agree that majority muslim people in kashmir valley dont agree to stay with India...so that make sense to me...but again alas being mulslim Baloch people they are not crying for pakistan either....if you think Kashmir is an emotive issue for you...then same applies to Indian also.....You can put anything like India invaded/occupied kashmir..and also i also completely agree with you...but fact is we have done it .....and this is not the time to rewrite the histroy...


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## muse

Yes, I agree that it's emotive in India - the whole 47 drama, the emotions, the ideologies, the whole mess - that's why I'm for lower the temperature.



> This is the dirtiest joke i have ever heard



Read what Naqvi says about it:


> Im sure any Pakistani with a sense of justice would also be uncomfortable with the warped mindset the slogan betrays.



And yet, it's not Pakistanis raising the slogan, it's captive kashmiris - again, the reason why I am suggesting that we talk to each other in such a way where we are not "besting" each other - it will be a lose lose situation. 

One of the things 47 achieved was seperating the opposing parties but not all the business of 47 was concluded - regardless of where one stands, whether one blames Nehru for it or one blames others, one cannot disagree that had the issue been settled as per 47, we would have been decades ansd decades ahead in terms of development and in terms of the general relationship.


I'm concerned about the "dirtiest joke" thing -- feel less, think more - it's a slogan the captive Kashmiri raise, not Pakistanis - Pakistanis will support it of course, but they are not the one raising the slogan.

There is a thread on the World affairs board about China wanting to maintain India in a low equilibrium - think of all the things that hold the Indian nation back, not just in India but in the region and in the world - I wonder if you will not agree that with kashmir resolved with Pakistan, India would be in an absolutely different league?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Kharavela said:


> ]&#8220;Bhooka nanga Hindustan; Jaan se pyaara Pakistan.&#8221;[/B]
> 
> 
> This is the dirtiest joke i have ever heard....Come on dear...India is not going around the USA/China/Gulf/UN for feeding its people in flood and cutting paycheck for your people........t



Actually UN,UK and others are helping with FOOD and AID programes.. Not to forget *ur the largest AID reciever after WW2!*..I bet it doesnt sound funny now?does it?


> But just to mention you....we have thousand bad things....but still then world better knows that within 65 years where does india stands in comparison to Pakstan...



Sure India started as the most industrialised area od british empire we started as the most poor with 1 jute mill,1 textile mill and only 1 university!

Today we have reduced our poverty to 15&#37; and ur still 50% poor,50% nalnourished,Rampant AIDs and other problems!

Despite being worlds biggest AID recievers!Recieving 659 BILLION$$$$$!!!!!




> Of course you are right....no body is crying for India...that is the funniest part...as i completely agree that majority muslim people in kashmir valley dont agree to stay with India...so that make sense to me...



At last u said something tht actually makes sense!




> but again alas being mulslim Baloch people they are not crying for pakistan either....



Dont derail the thread its not about balouchistan and its an internal issue of ours!

Also if u want to ask ur B.S poisonous b.s.Im the correct man as being a baloch frm balouchistan!

Wat do u know abt baloucistan?except ur B.S dordarshan, star news,sahara samay or ur holly grail the YOUTUBE videos?


Do u know where Nawab Akbars Family lives? except tht indian passport holding bastard brahamdagh n a few others?

Do u know they are out casts?Even the bugti tribal elders didnt want em to be the successor to Nawab Akbar and turned him down not 1 not twice but 3 times?

Mari chiefs and elders still live in kohlu and some are senators just like other chief of bughti clan!!

Govt. already agreed to there demand of gas loyality by paying them 48 crore rs. and rest 152 crores will be paid!

Did u ever see any flag except the GREEN AND WHITE hoisted in balouchistan?

Next time talk abt Balouchistan and be ready for azz kicking replies and possiably a ban!



> if you think Kashmir is an emotive issue for you...then same applies to Indian also.....



So by killing more kashmiri u will fulfill ur ....?
After 150000 shahdats AND 63 YEARS KASHMIRI FREEDOM STRUGGLE IS STILL GOING STRONG !!



> You can put anything like India invaded/occupied kashmir..and also i also completely agree with you...but fact is we have done it .....and this is not the time to rewrite the histroy...


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## SekrutYakhni

Since 1947 was mentioned here earlier, I would like to share an important information.

Words of Mr. Jinnah

"It is extremely difficult to appreciate why our Hindu friends fail to understand the real nature of Islam and Hinduism. They are not religions in the strict sense of the word, but are, in fact, different and distinct social orders, and it is a dream that the Hindus and Muslims can ever evolve a common nationality, and this misconception of one Indian nation has troubles and will lead India to destruction if we fail to revise our notions in time. *The Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs, litterateurs. They neither intermarry nor interdine together and, indeed, they belong to two different civilizations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.* Their aspect on life and of life are different. *It is quite clear that Hindus and Mussalmans derive their inspiration from different sources of history. They have different epics, different heroes, and different episodes. Very often the hero of one is a foe of the other and, likewise, their victories and defeats overlap. To yoke together two such nations under a single state, one as a numerical minority and the other as a majority, must lead to growing discontent and final destruction of any fabric that may be so built for the government of such a state."*


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## Coltsfan

> I wonder if you will not agree that with kashmir resolved with Pakistan, India would be in an absolutely different league?



Absolutely, however that depend what kinda solution do we come up for Kashmir.

The only reasonably possible solution is that India and Pakistan + China all retain the territories they control right now and make LOC as the new IB.


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## Coltsfan

saad445566 said:


> Since 1947 was mentioned here earlier, I would like to share an important information.
> 
> Words of Mr. Jinnah
> 
> "It is extremely difficult to appreciate why our Hindu friends fail to understand the real nature of Islam and Hinduism. They are not religions in the strict sense of the word, but are, in fact, different and distinct social orders, and it is a dream that the Hindus and Muslims can ever evolve a common nationality, and this misconception of one Indian nation has troubles and will lead India to destruction if we fail to revise our notions in time. *The Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs, litterateurs. They neither intermarry nor interdine together and, indeed, they belong to two different civilizations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.* Their aspect on life and of life are different. *It is quite clear that Hindus and Mussalmans derive their inspiration from different sources of history. They have different epics, different heroes, and different episodes. Very often the hero of one is a foe of the other and, likewise, their victories and defeats overlap. To yoke together two such nations under a single state, one as a numerical minority and the other as a majority, must lead to growing discontent and final destruction of any fabric that may be so built for the government of such a state."*



Then how do you explain the sectarian violence in Pakistan? According to your logic (or Jinnah's logic, which you ascribe to)..... there should be peace and harmony in Pakistan since an overwhelming majority is "Muslim" so there should be no discontent and destruction of fabric.


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## EjazR

Well unfortunate as it is, this shows that for the past two decades. Terrorists mostly based in Pakistan were killing more civilians than security forces.

So when you read about 60000 deaths in J&K, remember that many of them include civilians killed by terrorists and militants as well.
------

But at the same time, it is high time that CRPF is removed and retrained in Nonlethal crowd control.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Coltsfan said:


> Then how do you explain the sectarian violence in Pakistan? According to your logic (or Jinnah's logic, which you ascribe to)..... there should be peace and harmony in Pakistan since an overwhelming majority is "Muslim" so there should be no discontent and destruction of fabric.



Last time i checked talibins targeted a shia procession and a sunni shrine each after an other... and all clerics shia and sunni condemned it mutually!

Also i have many shia blood relatives!


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## Awesome

The difference is security forces aim and shoot at civilians. The Freedom fighters may accidentally kill civilians as collateral damage while trying to blow up security forces.

The security forces see the civilians as future Freedom fighters and are inherently inclined to shoot first and ask questions later when it comes to the Kashmiris.


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## EjazR

Bezerk said:


> So what you're trying to say here is that Pakistan was the one who provided the Kashmiri protesters with sticks and stones? How do you explain the recent 'Unarmed Protests' breaking out in Kashmir?



You can't see the current protests in isolation. This is a two decade enviroment created by PAkistani backed militants being pushed in Kashmir.

There was no presence of Army in civlians areas or even in the numbers present there today before 1989.

Continous army presence /security forces presence will always result in resentment to the local population. The same thing happened in East Pakistan and presently in balochistan where the local populace resented army presence.

In India a similar situation is in Kashmir valley (not entire Jammu Kashmir state) and some NE states like Manipur and Nagaland.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

EjazR said:


> *Well unfortunate as it is*, this shows that for the past two decades. *Terrorists mostly based in Pakistan were killing more civilians than security forces.*
> So when you read about 60000 deaths in J&K, remember that many of them include civilians killed by terrorists and militants as well.
> ------
> 
> But at the same time, it is high time that CRPF is removed and retrained in Nonlethal crowd control.



Yeah instead we sent 150000 mujahedeen into IOK who were all killed! All were Pakistani and instead of getting public support they started killing innocent civilians and yet the Kashmiris shout

Bhokha nanga hindustan Jaan say pyara Pakistan!

Wat a logic!


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## Kharavela

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Actually UN,UK and others are helping with FOOD and AID programes.. Not to forget *ur the largest AID reciever after WW2!*..I bet it doesnt sound funny now?does it?
> 
> 
> Sure India started as the most industrialised area od british empire we started as the most poor with 1 jute mill,1 textile mill and only 1 university!
> 
> Today we have reduced our poverty to 15% and ur still 50% poor,50% nalnourished,Rampant AIDs and other problems!
> 
> Despite being worlds biggest AID recievers!Recieving 659 BILLION$$$$$!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At last u said something tht actually makes sense!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dont derail the thread its not about balouchistan and its an internal issue of ours!
> 
> Also if u want to ask ur B.S poisonous b.s.Im the correct man as being a baloch frm balouchistan!
> 
> Wat do u know abt baloucistan?except ur B.S dordarshan, star news,sahara samay or ur holly grail the YOUTUBE videos?
> 
> 
> Do u know where Nawab Akbars Family lives? except tht indian passport holding bastard brahamdagh n a few others?
> 
> Do u know they are out casts?Even the bugti tribal elders didnt want em to be the successor to Nawab Akbar and turned him down not 1 not twice but 3 times?
> 
> Mari chiefs and elders still live in kohlu and some are senators just like other chief of bughti clan!!
> 
> Govt. already agreed to there demand of gas loyality by paying them 48 crore rs. and rest 152 crores will be paid!
> 
> Did u ever see any flag except the GREEN AND WHITE hoisted in balouchistan?
> 
> Next time talk abt Balouchistan and be ready for azz kicking replies and possiably a ban!
> 
> 
> 
> So by killing more kashmiri u will fulfill ur ....?
> After 150000 shahdats AND 63 YEARS KASHMIRI FREEDOM STRUGGLE IS STILL GOING STRONG !!




Actually UN,UK and others are helping with FOOD and AID programes.. 

......Hmmm....Yeh dear....i know how much US/UK/UN are so desparate to help you....nothing to argue...

And relating to banning me...never mind...i pretty much okay with it...BTW...why r u so agitated and using foul languages....i know that sometimes bitter truth always hurts....and that makes every one angry....


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## Coltsfan

Asim Aquil said:


> The difference is security forces aim and shoot at civilians. The Freedom fighters may accidentally kill civilians as collateral damage while trying to blow up security forces.
> 
> The security forces see the civilians as future Freedom fighters and are inherently inclined to shoot first and ask questions later when it comes to the Kashmiris.



"freedom fighters" should stop disguising themselves as innocent civilians in that case......

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Kharavela said:


> Actually UN,UK and others are helping with FOOD and AID programes..
> 
> ......Hmmm....Yeh dear....i know how much US/UK/UN are so desparate to help you....nothing to argue...
> 
> And relating to banning me...never mind...i pretty much okay with it...BTW...why r u so agitated and using foul languages....i know that sometimes bitter truth always hurts....and that makes every one angry....


Leave us dude feed half of ur population dubbed SLUM DOGS!

I used the word ba..rds for terrorist,does tht make u uncomfortable? did u develop any emotional attachment with these UN black listed scum bags through there indian passports?


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## EjazR

*@indianrabbite*
Just a few thoughts

But onething that is different from Pakistani Kashmir is that on the Indian side, there is freedom for sepratist political activities as well while Pakistan does not allow that. Any politcal party or entity that is adverse to the joining Pakistan is basically banned and only anti-India or pro-Pakistan parties are allowed politcal activities.

Keeping this in mind. Yes there should be draw down of security forces in civilian areas but at the same time there should be some ground rules for politcal activities. Forexample mosques are places of worship and should not be used for politics. For political activities, they can arrange a seprate ground and rent out the space but not hijack a religious gathering for their politcal agenda. Similaly using msoque loudpeakers for propaganda should be stopped.

At the same time a high geared resolution attempt must be made which willnot be stopped even ifmilitants try to attack or kill sepratist leadership that is trying to talk to GoI or GoJ&K. We have examples ofMirwaiz Umar Farooq's Father, Sajja Lone's father and many others who were killed for just talking to GoI by PAkistani backed militants. They should be told that talks should not stop because of this no matter how much Pakistan might be adverse to it. The recent protests have shown that Pakistan at least for now is irrelevant to the solution and an understanding should be reached to the solution that can then be presented to Pakistan for the final approval. The sepratists want independance, India considers Kashmir its integral part just like any other state. The solution will have to be somewhere in the middle.

Ladakh and its Buddhist majority Leh and muslim majority Kargil already do not have AFSPA, still there has be no problem with militancy. Other districts should be added and Srinagar is a good choice. CRPF can be kept away and brought by choppers only if necessary. And locals should be recruited for riot control.

Truth and Reconciliation comission and NHRC should have full jurisdiction overJ&K which it does not have right now. All cases of HR violations should be investigated and compensated.

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## muse

Baat kaahan se kahaan chaaligaiey? It's always wierd. Khair

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## Coltsfan

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Last time i checked talibins targeted a shia procession and a sunni shrine each after an other... and all clerics shia and sunni condemned it mutually!
> 
> Also i have many shia blood relatives!



Taliban are Muslims, then why are they attacking shia and sunnis?

According to Jinnah's assertion, two diff religions can not coexist together, so if there is only religion there shouldn't be any bickering in the first place.

Glad to hear you have Shia relatives..... 

I know this thread has digressed....... but I was only responding to the Jinnah's take on religion and nation building.


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## SekrutYakhni

Coltsfan said:


> Then how do you explain the sectarian violence in Pakistan? According to your logic (or Jinnah's logic, which you ascribe to)..... there should be peace and harmony in Pakistan since an overwhelming majority is "Muslim" so there should be no discontent and destruction of fabric.



There is no sectarian violence in Pakistan; at least not to a significant level. It is going towards it but we will come up with an effective solution. Moreover, the violence you are referring to is a struggle between two illiterate mullahs and their followers. The consciousness of our people and the ability to logic cannot be seen anywhere thus brings social problems with it. In conclusion, the parameters of violence are not present which can be regarded as a threat to our stability right now. As I said earlier, we will come up with an effective solution before it gets too late.

*Now, do not post your rants here. 
On-topic! *

*Do not hesitate in writing Mister before Jinnah's name. *


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## Coltsfan

saad445566 said:


> There is no sectarian violence in Pakistan; at least not to a significant level. It is going towards it but we will come up with an effective solution. Moreover, the violence you are referring to is a struggle between two illiterate mullahs and their followers. The consciousness of our people and the ability to logic cannot be seen anywhere thus brings social problems with it. In conclusion, the parameters of violence are not present which can be regarded as a threat to our stability right now. As I said earlier, we will come up with an effective solution before it gets too late.
> 
> *Now, do not post your rants here.
> On-topic! *
> 
> *Do not hesitate in writing Mister before Jinnah's name. *




You are the one who brought in Mr. Jinnah's take on partition into the discussion, why are you blaming me for going off topic?

Omitting Mr. before Mr. Jinnah's name was inadvertent, my apologies if your feelings were hurt.


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## SekrutYakhni

Coltsfan said:


> You are the one who brought in Mr. Jinnah's take on partition into the discussion, why are you blaming me for going off topic?
> 
> Omitting Mr. before Mr. Jinnah's name was inadvertent, my apologies if your feelings were hurt.



Someone mentioned 1947 earlier so I thought to 'educate' the viewers. My post was an off topic one and I did not expect any replies. The sole purpose of that post was to educate viewers and thats it.


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## Jade

somebozo said:


> Kashmiris want to preserve their identity. They dont want to be called Indians or be forced to put their indentity as secondary. This clause has every support because Kashmir was neither part of British India nor Imperial India. ANd this is their intention they mean cleary "india get out and leave us alone".
> What India can do is withdraw its forces, hand over Kashmir to UN for future referendum and independence. Same case like south sudan.
> 
> UN is quick to react when it comes to dividing Indonesia, Morocco or Sudan and absolutely incompetent to deal with France and India?? WHY??



Nonsense, nothing can be farther from truth. The truth is there is no such thing as Indian identity as you define. A Malayalee is as different from an Assamese as a Kashmiri is from a Bihari. A country as diverse as India cannot be defined based on religion, ethnicity or language.

You dont understand an iota of what Indianness is neither we expect that from you.

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## Trac

penumbra said:


> As i asked earlier, why are these people demanding freedom...from India?
> 
> *I mean Pakistani Kashmir is relatively peaceful*...so i really don't understand the paradox here....



Joke of the century 

Just read this 
UNHCR | Refworld | Freedom in the World 2008 - Kashmir [Pakistan]

Now you are not able to speak about P o k


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## SpArK

Nice initiative..choose the best ones from the valley...


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## wap7

Normal sane people want to feed their families.


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## Coltsfan

That would still leave 57,000 Kashmiri youths to be recruited as "freedom fighters" 

It was a mistake to leave kashmir just as a tourist destination and make no serious efforts to provide long term industrial employment opportunities to people over there.


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## Trac

Really a good news 

A tight slap on the faces of terrorist and those few paid protesters

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## Spring Onion

Trac said:


>





*Kashmir tense again, curfew reimposed*
TNN, Sep 7, 2010, 12.04pm IST


SRINAGAR:* Curfew was reimposed in the entire Kashmir valley on Tuesday morning to prevent violent protests in the wake of killing of four persons at Palahallan in Baramulla district on Monday when protesters attacked IGP Kashmir on the national highway.*

The protesters held violent protests across Srinagar on Monday night even though Sabha-e-Qadeer was observed in various mosques and at Jamia Masjid in Nowhatta. The protesters attacked police station at Nowhatta late Monday night. However, nobody was hurt in the police action. The motorcycle-borne youth were making rounds of the localities through out the night triggering violence, the police said.

Read more: Kashmir tense again, curfew reimposed - India - The Times of India Kashmir tense again, curfew reimposed - India - The Times of India


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## Trac

Jana said:


> *Kashmir tense again, curfew reimposed*
> TNN, Sep 7, 2010, 12.04pm IST
> 
> 
> SRINAGAR:* Curfew was reimposed in the entire Kashmir valley on Tuesday morning to prevent violent protests in the wake of killing of four persons at Palahallan in Baramulla district on Monday when protesters attacked IGP Kashmir on the national highway.*
> 
> The protesters held violent protests across Srinagar on Monday night even though Sabha-e-Qadeer was observed in various mosques and at Jamia Masjid in Nowhatta. The protesters attacked police station at Nowhatta late Monday night. However, nobody was hurt in the police action. The motorcycle-borne youth were making rounds of the localities through out the night triggering violence, the police said.
> 
> Read more: Kashmir tense again, curfew reimposed - India - The Times of India Kashmir tense again, curfew reimposed - India - The Times of India



*Ohh you really care about Kashmiri people but when any one ask you about Azad Kashmir you mouth become shut ??? *


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## SpArK

Curfew again... recruitment needs to fasten up now...


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## EjazR

Assasinations of Mirwaiz Umar Farooq's Father, Sajjad Lone's father and more recently Fazl-i-Haq Qureshi were not "accidental" crossfire.

Killing of pro-India politicians and threatening and killing local police personnel are not accidental. And killing of alleged "informers" or doing forced "nikah" with the daughters of villagers are not accidental.

The context is important. Before 1989, there was no AFSPA, no CRPF and no security forces. IT was only after the intervention of Pakistani backed militants that all these happened.

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## Spring Onion

BENNY said:


> Curfew again... recruitment needs to fasten up now...



Been many decades Indian invaders are imposing Curfew after curfew in Occupied Country Kashmir.

But Kashmiris defy these Curfews for the last many decades

"Thats why they want Terrorist Indian Army out of their Country occupied by India.
Thats why they want Terrorist Indian Army out of their Country occupied by India.
Thats why they want Terrorist Indian Army out of their Country occupied by India.
Thats why they want Terrorist Indian Army out of their Country occupied by India.
Thats why they want Terrorist Indian Army out of their Country occupied by India."


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## Areesh

EjazR said:


> Assasinations of Mirwaiz Umar Farooq's Father, Sajjad Lone's father and more recently Fazl-i-Haq Qureshi were not "accidental" crossfire.
> 
> Killing of pro-India politicians and threatening and killing local police personnel are not accidental. And killing of alleged "informers" or doing forced "nikah" with the daughters of villagers are not accidental.
> 
> The context is important. Before 1989, there was no AFSPA, no CRPF and no security forces. IT was only after the intervention of Pakistani backed militants that all these happened.



Is it your justification for killing civilians or just typical Bharati propaganda?


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## SpArK

Jana said:


> Been *many decades* Indian invaders are imposing *Curfew* after curfew in Occupied Country Kashmir.
> 
> But Kashmiris defy these Curfews for the last many decades
> 
> "Thats why they want Terrorist Indian Army out of their Country occupied by India.
> Thats why they want Terrorist Indian Army out of their Country occupied by India.
> Thats why they want Terrorist Indian Army out of their Country occupied by India.
> Thats why they want Terrorist Indian Army out of their Country occupied by India.
> Thats why they want Terrorist Indian Army out of their Country occupied by India."




Many more "decades" yet to come and cur*few* will become *few*er and *few*er...

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## Spring Onion

Coltsfan said:


> "freedom fighters" should stop disguising themselves as innocent civilians in that case......



Yeh all those Kashmiri women and youth stones in their hands aiming Indian terrorist forces and their hired goons, were disguising right???


 reality bites.


Every Kashmiri is a freedom fighter.


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## Areesh

Looks like thousands more shoes to be thrown in the future Independence day ceremonies in the coming years.


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## Trac

Areesh said:


> Looks like thousands more shoes to be thrown in the future Independence day ceremonies in the coming years.



You are right but not in J&K people throw shoes in Azad Kashmir for their basic rights and for freddom of press


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## SpArK

Areesh said:


> Looks like thousands more shoes to be thrown in the future Independence day ceremonies in the coming years.



No worries.. we have already started a company to replace the lost shoes.


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## Trac

Jana said:


> Yeh all those Kashmiri women and youth stones in their hands aiming Indian terrorist forces and their hired goons, were disguising right???
> 
> 
> reality bites.
> 
> *
> Every Kashmiri is a freedom fighter*.



Thats why more than 75 % policeman belongs to Kashmiri Muslims and corrently more than 60,000 applied for post

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## Spring Onion

EjazR said:


> Assasinations of Mirwaiz Umar Farooq's Father, Sajjad Lone's father and more recently Fazl-i-Haq Qureshi were not "accidental" crossfire.



Yeh they were killed by Indians. Period 




> Killing of pro-India politicians and threatening and killing local police personnel are not accidental.



They are Indian groupie authorising killing of innocent Kashmiri Civilians, fake encounters, so no mercy for terrorist allies of terrorist army in Kashmir.




> And killing of alleged "informers" or doing forced "nikah" with the daughters of villagers are not accidental.




The Indian Invader armymen have been using Kashmiri females as informers and been shooting them dead after using them and at the end blaming freedom fighters for that.

Same is going on from otherside. Anyone siding with Terrorist army is an enemy of the Kashmiri people.



> The context is important. Before 1989, there was no AFSPA, no CRPF and no security forces. IT was only after the intervention of Pakistani backed militants that all these happened.



Kashmir is a disputed country hence there is NO backed or not backed issue. They are Kashmiris and they are fighting against the illegal invaders


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## Areesh

BENNY said:


> No worries.. we have already started a company to replace the lost shoes.



Who is the CEO of this company? Farooq Abdullah with Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi as members of board of directors.


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## Areesh

Trac said:


> You are right but not in J&K people throw shoes in Azad Kashmir for their basic rights and for freddom of press



Yup in AJK they wear it in their feet.


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## SpArK

Areesh said:


> Who is the CEO of this company? Farooq Abdullah with Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi as members of board of directors.




Yes sir.. Its them.. absolutely...


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## somebozo

jade1982 said:


> Nonsense, nothing can be farther from truth. The truth is there is no such thing as Indian identity as you define. A Malayalee is as different from an Assamese as a Kashmiri is from a Bihari. A country as diverse as India cannot be defined based on religion, ethnicity or language.
> 
> You dont understand an iota of what Indianness is neither we expect that from you.



SO if Kashmiris accecede to India, will they get an Indian passport of Kashmiri passport?? Agree a Malyale is different from Assamese and Kashmiri from Bihari but arent they all called Indians??


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## Leviza

Srinagar, Sept 6:* Furious over the &#8216;unprovoked&#8217; attack on the Imaam of a local Masjid, the residents of the Batmaloo are demanding the removal of the CRPF bunker from the locality even as the overnight protests continued on Monday against the incident*.

*The CRPF picket is an unusual one, perched on the sixth floor of the shopping complex. The entire shopping complex is occupied by the paramilitary.*
&#8220;It is the CRPF men from that bunker who have made our life hell. They pelt stones on the residential houses. They even hurl marbles using sling shots,&#8221; locals said.

On Sunday evening, they said there wasn&#8217;t any protest or stone pelting. &#8220;*The CRPF men from the bunker hurled stones on the residential houses just minutes before Taraweeh prayers. Several stones smashed the windowpanes and landed inside my room*. *A stone also hit my one-year old son*, Tahaan, who was asleep,&#8221; said, S M Yaseen, the Imaam of the Bazaar Masjid, Batmaloo.
*This incident infuriated the locals who staged pro-freedom protests which continued till late night. They offered Traweeh prayers at 10.30 pm in the night*.
On Monday, scores of people from several localities of Batmaloo and Sheikh Dawood colony poured onto streets and continued the protests.

Protesters, mainly young boys, pelted stones on the CRPF bunker, overlooking the entire locality.
*CRPF and policemen hurled back the stones at them injuring a civilian, Bashir Ahmad of S D Colony*.

&#8220;*There is not a single house whose windows are not smashed. Even the Masjid has been attacked and desecrated time and again*,&#8221; said Nasir Ahmad, a local.
&#8220;We want the bunker to be removed. Its removal has become imperative now. *They even attacked our Imaam Sahab*,&#8221; remarked another youth. &#8220;We won&#8217;t hold back unless they vacate the whole shopping complex.&#8221;

Source - how they start killing innocent people of kashmir


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## Trac

I think now people not feared with those terrorrist and come openly agaist those few paid protesters 
we saw an example of this when Shop keeper throw stones on stone pelters 

Almost all policeman in J&K is from J&K and now this responce* glad to see that *


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## Desi Sher

Oh Yeah, I forgot the Other day a CRPF jawan was Coming Out in Knickers and Playing with the Marbles.... Come On B.S , Dont they have any other Lies to take out the Bunker???? Why dont they Just say so Instead Of Making such silly Comments.....

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## Leviza

Desi Sher said:


> Oh Yeah, I forgot the Other day a CRPF jawan was Coming Out in Knickers and Playing with the Marbles.... Come On B.S , Dont they have any other Lies to take out the Bunker???? Why dont they Just say so Instead Of Making such silly Comments.....



you think these are lies coz you or your kids are safe in other part of india and you dont live in kashmir..... 

shame on you and shame on youe Armed Fources.....they didnt even left one year old baby..... 

freedom for kashmir is on the door now... face it


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## Trac

Desi Sher said:


> Oh Yeah, I forgot the Other day a CRPF jawan was Coming Out in Knickers and Playing with the Marbles.... Come On B.S , Dont they have any other Lies to take out the Bunker???? Why dont they Just say so Instead Of Making such silly Comments.....



Buddy they can just talk non sence 
Just say any think about Azad Kashmir you will be fired 

If they really care about Kahsmiri people why dnt they talk about Azad Kashmir 

Basic Rights of people thier
and freedom of press

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## Desi Sher

Leviza said:


> you think these are lies coz you or your kids are safe in other part of india and you dont live in kashmir.....
> 
> shame on you and shame on youe Armed Fources.....they didnt even left one year old baby.....
> 
> freedom for kashmir is on the door now... face it



In a way Yes, I and My Kids are safe here, Because these Brave Hearts Keep Vigil of My Border Day and Night and I got no regrets In what ever They do to Keep My Country Safe from Players and Play makers.....


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## Trac

Leviza said:


> you think these are lies coz you or your kids are safe in other part of india and you dont live in kashmir.....
> 
> shame on you and shame on youe Armed Fources.....they didnt even left one year old baby.....
> 
> *freedom for kashmir is on the door now*... face it



This dream make you happy ??? so carry on

Just make a thread about Azad Kashmir you will ashemed on yourself after watching reality


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## Leviza

Trac said:


> Buddy they can just talk non sence
> Just say any think about Azad Kashmir you will be fired
> 
> If they really care about Kahsmiri people why dnt they talk about Azad Kashmir
> 
> Basic Rights of people thier
> and freedom of press



well as far as i see Azad kashmir is fine and it IOK which is burning these days... and there is no international press...
people need freedom thats all and its not started today buddy they want it from say first....


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## Rafael

Desi Sher said:


> In a way Yes, I and My Kids are safe here, Because these *Brave Hearts* Keep Vigil of My Border Day and Night and I got no regrets In what ever They do to Keep My Country Safe from Players and Play makers.....



Brave Hearts My Foot!


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## Desi Sher

Leviza said:


> well as far as i see Azad kashmir is fine and it IOK which is burning these days... and there is no international press...
> people need freedom thats all and its not started today buddy they want it from say first....



People are not put in Jail, Nor are they closed, they are free, if they dont like to be a part of Our country then Who is restricting them to go to what ever Country they prefer to????


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## Leviza

Desi Sher said:


> In a way Yes, I and My Kids are safe here, Because these Brave Hearts Keep Vigil of My Border Day and Night and I got no regrets In what ever They do to Keep My Country Safe from Players and Play makers.....



thats why you are saying this coz just like indian armed forces you dont care for kashmiri people and kids... or you want troll here

one can go for investigations in this but your purpose if troll or you like your army to kill kids there...


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## Spring Onion

*"Those stones thrown on Indian army are not stones but laanat on the tyrants": Asim *


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## Desi Sher

raheel1 said:


> Brave Hearts My Foot!



My foot should be said on the Military which Allows A foreign nation to bomb its land In the name of war on terrorism..... My Foot


----------



## Leviza

Desi Sher said:


> People are not put in Jail, Nor are they closed, they are free, if they dont like to be a part of Our country then Who is restricting them to go to what ever Country they prefer to????



No why do they in majority should suffer and leave thier place ... indian army should leave kashmir and thats what its gonna like 

like it or not...

Please everyone ... no troll please


----------



## Trac

Leviza said:


> well as far as i see Azad kashmir is fine and it IOK which is burning these days... and there is no international press...
> people need freedom thats all and its not started today buddy they want it from say first....



Buddy i think you dnt know the reality of P O K well its not your fault mod not allowed thread about P O K 


Just read this 

*Political Rights and Civil Liberties*
The political rights of the residents of Pakistani-administered Kashmir remain severely limited. Neither the Northern Areas nor Azad Kashmir has representation in Pakistan's national Parliament. The Northern Areas are directly administered by the Pakistani government under the Legal Framework Order of 1994; the region is not included in the Pakistani constitution and has no constitution of its own, meaning there is no fundamental guarantee of civil rights, democratic representation, or the separation of powers. Executive authority is vested in the minister for Kashmir affairs, a civil servant appointed by Islamabad. A 36-seat Northern Areas Legislative Council (NALC)  of which 24 seats are filled through direct elections and six each are reserved for women and technocrats from each district  serves in an advisory capacity and has no authority to change laws or control revenue. Elections to the NALC were held in 2004, with independent candidates and representatives of national political parties winning seats. In October 2007, Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf announced a package of reforms that would change the NALC into the Northern Areas Legislative Assembly, devolving fiscal and legislative powers to locally elected politicians. The package would also allow for the election of a chief executive accountable to the assembly, but it would maintain federal control over the judiciary and the top executive post of "chairman." The region would continue to be administered under the Legal Framework Order rather than a constitutional framework like in Azad Kashmir, thus still falling short of compliance with a 1999 Supreme Court ruling on the issue. At year's end, Pakistan's broader political crisis cast doubt on the future of the proposed reforms.

Azad Kashmir has an interim constitution, an elected unicameral assembly, a prime minister, and a president who is elected by the legislative assembly. Both the president and the assembly serve five-year terms. Of the 49 assembly seats, 41 are filled through direct elections and eight are reserved seats (five for women and one each for representatives of overseas Kashmiris, technocrats, and religious leaders). However, Pakistan exercises considerable control over the structures of government and electoral politics. Islamabad's approval is required to pass legislation, and the minister for Kashmir affairs handles the daily administration of the state and controls the budget. The Pakistani military retains a guiding role on issues of politics and governance.

As detailed by Human Rights Watch (HRW) in a 2006 report on the region, individuals and political parties who do not support Kashmir's accession to Pakistan are barred from participating in the political process, standing for election, taking a job with any government institution, or accessing educational institutions. At least 60 proindependence candidates who belonged to the JKLF, the APNA, and smaller political parties were barred from participating in the July 2006 Azad Kashmir legislative assembly elections. Overall, HRW noted that the election process was flawed and "greeted with widespread charges of poll rigging by opposition political parties and independent analysts." However, unlike the 2001 elections, the polls featured few instances of physical violence and harassment  aside from threats  against candidates or their supporters, possibly because of the greater international presence in the wake of the earthquake. In general, antiaccession parties and individuals are subject to surveillance, harassment, and sometimes imprisonment by Pakistani intelligence and security services.

In 2007, the political crisis in Pakistan reverberated in Kashmir. Chaudhry Majeed, the PPP president for Azad Kashmir, and other party activists were briefly detained in November following Musharraf's declaration of a state of emergency, with some placed under house arrest for 30 days. In December, demonstrators clashed with police, burned tires, and blocked roads in antigovernment protests after the assassination of PPP leader and former prime minister Benazir Bhutto, but there were no reported injuries.

Azad Kashmir receives a large amount of financial aid from the Pakistani government, especially following the 2005 earthquake, but successive administrations have been tainted by corruption and incompetence. A lack of official accountability has been identified as a key factor in the poor socioeconomic development of both Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas. Pakistani-controlled Kashmir was not rated separately in Transparency International's 2007 Corruption Perceptions Index.

The Pakistani government uses the constitution and other laws to curb freedom of speech on a variety of subjects, including the status of Kashmir and incidents of sectarian violence. In recent years, authorities have banned several local newspapers from publishing and have detained or otherwise harassed Kashmiri journalists. In March 2007, the government suspended its advertisements in publications by the Dawn English-language media group after it reported on a possible resurgence of official support for militants in Kashmir. In April 2007, Dawn reported that the editor and publisher of the banned monthly Kargil International magazine were indicted on sedition and defamation charges for publishing a proindependence article in 2004. In addition to pressure and threats from the authorities, journalists have been known to face harassment and attacks from nonstate actors, though no such incidents were reported in 2007. During the state of emergency imposed on the rest of Pakistan in November 2007, cable operators in Kashmir were instructed to suspend broadcasts of most national and international news channels.

Internet access is not usually restricted but remains confined to urban centers. Deliberately limited telephone and mobile phone access has been expanded in the wake of the 2005 earthquake. The presence of foreign media and aid organizations has also helped to partially open up a tightly controlled information environment. Books that do not adequately adhere to a proaccession stance are regularly banned, according to HRW.

Pakistan is an Islamic republic, and there are numerous restrictions on religious freedom. Religious minorities also face unofficial economic and societal discrimination and are occasionally subject to violent attack. Shia Muslims, who form the majority of the population in the Northern Areas, include a large number of Ismailis, a group that follows the Aga Khan. Sectarian strife between Shiites and the increasing number of Sunni Muslims (many of whom are migrants from elsewhere in Pakistan) first became a concern in 1988 and continues to be a problem. In 2005, several waves of sectarian violence killed almost 100 people and led to a month-long curfew. Sporadic attacks continued to take place during 2006, including the destruction by fire of an Ismaili place of worship, but no violent incidents were reported in 2007.

Freedoms of association and assembly are restricted. The constitution of Azad Kashmir forbids individuals and political parties from taking part in activities that are prejudicial to the ideology of the state's accession to Pakistan. As such, police in recent years have regularly suppressed antigovernment demonstrations, sometimes violently. In 2005, at least 10 people were killed when police opened fire on Shia student protesters, and lengthy curfews were imposed to prevent demonstrators from assembling. In 2007, police clashed with demonstrators on several occasions, but there were no reports of deaths or lengthy detentions. In October, police baton-charged dozens of people demonstrating against a proposal to move the capital of Azad Kashmir from Muzafarrabad. Three people were arrested but released the same day. In November, police blocked activists of the proindependence APNA who were protesting in favor of truck service across the LOC from entering a town near the ceasefire line as planned.

Nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) are generally able to operate freely. However, the Aga Khan Rural Support Program  run by the Aga Khan Foundation (AKF), an international development organization that focuses on Ismaili communities worldwide  has been subjected to harassment and violence. According to the U.S. State Department's 2007 Report on International Religious Freedom, Sunni extremist groups have in recent years vandalized AKF-funded schools and health clinics and have attacked AKF personnel, although no such attacks were reported in 2007. The situation for labor rights in Pakistani-controlled Kashmir is similar to that in Pakistan.

The judiciary of the Northern Areas consists of district courts, a chief court, and since 2005, a separate court of appeals. With appointments based on three-year contracts subject to discretionary renewal, the judiciary is largely subservient to the executive. Azad Kashmir has its own system of local magistrates and high courts, whose heads are appointed by the president of Azad Kashmir. Appeals are adjudicated by the Supreme Court of Pakistan. There are also Islamic judges who handle criminal cases concerning Islamic law. In April 2007, local lawyers protested the appointment to the Azad Kashmir Supreme Court of Justice Mohammad Reaz Akhtar Chaudhry over the court's most senior judge, Justice Manzoor Hussain Gilani, arguing that it violated constitutional conventions and rules of seniority. The newspaper Dawn reported that the Azad Kashmir Supreme Court rejected a petition by the lawyers challenging the appointment and ordered that future petitions of a similar nature not be entertained by the courts.

According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP), Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) operates throughout Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas and engages in extensive surveillance (particularly of proindependence groups and the press), as well as arbitrary arrests and detentions. In some instances, those detained by the ISI, the police, or the security forces are tortured, and several cases of death in custody have been reported. Impunity for acts of torture and other mistreatment of civilians by the military and intelligence services remains the norm. The territory also continues to be governed by the colonial-era Frontier Crimes Regulations, under which residents are required to report to local police stations once a month.

A number of Islamist militant groups, including al-Qaeda, operate from bases in Pakistani-administered Kashmir with the tacit permission of Pakistani intelligence. Tension between Islamist, pro-Pakistan groups and the proindependence Kashmiri groups  as well as some local residents  has reportedly intensified in recent years. In June 2007, a land dispute broke out between villagers in Azad Kashmir and the Islamist organization Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JUD), identified by the United States as a terrorist organization. Following the alleged torture of two men and the killing of a 17-year-old boy by JUD members, a mob burned down a temporary hospital the group had established following the 2005 earthquake.

Several hundred families displaced by shelling between Indian and Pakistani forces around the LOC prior to the 2003 ceasefire remain unable to return to their homes and have largely been excluded from earthquake-related assistance schemes. In addition, the Azad Kashmir government manages relief camps for refugees from Indian-administered Kashmir, the bulk of whom arrived after the situation on the Indian side worsened in 1989. Many more of the refugees (roughly 1.5 million) live elsewhere in Azad Kashmir and throughout Pakistan.

The status of women in Pakistani-administered Kashmir is similar to that of women in Pakistan. While the HRCP reports that honor killings and **** occur less frequently than in other areas of Pakistan, domestic violence, forced marriage, and other forms of abuse continue to be issues of concern. Women are not granted equal rights under the law, and their educational opportunities and choice of marriage partner remain circumscribed. In May 2007, the United Nations and other aid agencies temporarily suspended their work after suspected Islamists mounted an arson attack on the home of two aid workers; the organizations had received warnings against hiring women.

Topics: Kashmiris, Security forces, Religious persecution, Ethnic persecution, Extrajudicial executions, Political parties, Disappeared persons, Death in custody, Arbitrary arrest and detention, Abduction, Womens rights, Violence against women, Peace talks, Conflict situation, Corruption, Gender discrimination, Impunity, Protection of civilian persons in time of war, Violence against women, Militias, Freedom of religion, Freedom of expression, Freedom of association, Freedom of assembly, Independence of judiciary, SGBV, Armed forces/military, 





Read full you know the reality 
from a nutral source 
UNHCR | Refworld | Freedom in the World 2008 - Kashmir [Pakistan]


----------



## Leviza

*The CRPF men from the bunker hurled stones on the residential houses just minutes before Taraweeh prayers. Several stones smashed the windowpanes and landed inside my room. A stone also hit my one-year old son, Tahaan, who was asleep, said, S M Yaseen, the Imaam of the Bazaar Masjid, Batmaloo*

Just imagine its your one year old baby hit my indian fources.... shame on that men who did it.. come on ONE YEAR ..... 

shame on that army
shame on that nation
shame on that people


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## Desi Sher

Leviza said:


> thats why you are saying this coz just like indian armed forces you dont care for kashmiri people and kids... or you want troll here
> 
> one can go for investigations in this but your purpose if troll or you like your army to kill kids there...




Iam Only saying this Is Not a credible stuff,, These people are making fun of themselves saying CRPF throwing stones inside there house from Bunkers, If they really had to do so, they would have come In the Open and Fired all of them


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## Desi Sher

Leviza said:


> No why do they in majority should suffer and leave thier place ... indian army should leave kashmir and thats what its gonna like
> 
> like it or not...
> 
> Please everyone ... no troll please



Why should we move??? we Like kashmir, If they dont They should Move not we....


----------



## Rafael

Leviza said:


> *The CRPF men from the bunker hurled stones on the residential houses just minutes before Taraweeh prayers. Several stones smashed the windowpanes and landed inside my room. A stone also hit my one-year old son, Tahaan, who was asleep, said, S M Yaseen, the Imaam of the Bazaar Masjid, Batmaloo*
> 
> Just imagine its your one year old baby hit my indian fources.... shame on that men who did it.. come on ONE YEAR .....
> 
> shame on that army
> shame on that nation
> shame on that people



Forget it dear, they can even find justifications for killings of 2-3 years children!


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## Leviza

Desi Sher said:


> Iam Not Intending To Grow My Kids as Cowards ....They dont fear death nor Do I???? Iam sure Our Soldiers would not let that happen to me And My Kids, they would restrict all the terrorism to the borders.... Its clean Inside here In India....



should i show you how clean it is in india???????

indian army wont do anything and your kids will be in place on this one year old kid one day my friend... stop your gov to do it as it will spread to other state of indian too 

and you will only feel it when someone hit your kids too..... 
come on show some respect for one year old baby if you are human.... how can anything be like this


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## gogbot

*Why no one asks for neutral source on these threads ?*

I have seen even mods , "think tanks" and "researchers" demanding a neutral source , whenever an India source is provided. 

Why are stories like this taken for truth , with no neutral verification.

I demand a neutral source for these story threads.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


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## Trac

*Source of thread is enough for every one *


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## Trac

gogbot said:


> *Why no one asks for neutral source on these threads ?*
> 
> I have seen even mods , "think tanks" and "researchers" demanding a neutral source , whenever an India source is provided.
> 
> Why are stories like this taken for truth , with no neutral verification.
> 
> I demand a neutral source for these story threads.



Buddy this is Anti-Indian thread 
here Article from personal blogs are more relieble than top news source


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## Leviza

Trac said:


> Buddy this is Anti-Indian thread
> here Article from personal blogs are more relieble than top news source



relieble defination is not what you think buddy......
killing innocent kids is not justified in any sence and shame on you indian people who think this is rite to hit one year old baby.... are you humans?


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## Desi Sher

Leviza said:


> relieble defination is not what you think buddy......
> killing innocent kids is not justified in any sence and shame on you indian people who think this is rite to hit one year old baby.... are you humans?



Prove it that we hit?????? get a reliable source rather some BS ..... ... where as Your Dearest of Dearest Stone pelters Killed a 13 days old Baby mercylessly


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## Leviza

Trac said:


> Buddy this is Anti-Indian thread



No its not any-Indian Thread.... its shows you reality of indian fources.... it shows you wnats going on in Kashmir and how general public is effected by this army...

if you still think its anti-Indian thread then yes it is and we will protest in every way for humanity... we have divided indian once, and we can do it again ... so go away...

freedom for kashmir is near dont close your eyes indians....


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## Trac

Lot of Pakistani member care about Kashmir and their people but are they know reality of Azad Kashmir ..

Here on PDF thread about J&K is allowed even if they are form person blog but no one is ready to disscuss about Azad Kashmir 

Is Azad Kashmir is really Azad ??

Lets see............ may be this thread will be deleted without any reason like some old ones.. 

*Just want to see Mod have dare to face reality or not *


Is Azad kashmir is batter than J&K??


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## Leviza

Trac said:


> Lot of Pakistani member care about Kashmir and their people but are they know reality of Azad Kashmir ..
> 
> Here on PDF thread about J&K is allowed even if they are form person blog but no one is ready to disscuss about Azad Kashmir
> 
> Is Azad Kashmir is really Azad ??
> 
> Lets see............ may be this thread will be deleted without any reason like some old ones..
> 
> *Just want to see Mod have dare to face reality or not *
> 
> 
> Is Azad kashmir is batter than J&K??



yes it is.... and you jsut a new person like me on this forum and claming that everytime it closed??????? maybe you have lots of ID here and now hidding under this new one... 

come out of it ...... little devil i will step on you


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## Trac

Leviza said:


> yes it is.... and you jsut a new person like me on this forum and claming that everytime it closed??????? maybe you have lots of ID here and now hidding under this new one...
> 
> come out of it ...... little devil i will step on you



I`ll try two times but every time thread is deleted without any reason 

Send a messege to webi but no responce 


Well bhai tum bhi to topic disscuss karne ki jagah excuse hi de rahe ho


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## T-Faz

*All I see are insults and off topic posts in this thread, closed.

Refrain from doing similar in the future or you will be banned.*


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## Leviza

Trac said:


> I`ll try two times but every time thread is deleted without any reason
> 
> Send a messege to webi but no responce
> 
> 
> Well bhai tum bhi to topic disscuss karne ki jagah excuse hi de rahe ho



well this is no excuse how old you on this site? may be 2 days atmost a week or two? how can you claim everytime its closed ????? 

chori pakri gai


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## Desi Sher

Well not every threads are closed buddy, Its always welcome as Long as Its healthy enough


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## Trac

*Political Rights and Civil Liberties*

*The political rights of the residents of Pakistani-administered Kashmir remain severely limited*. Neither the Northern Areas nor Azad Kashmir has representation in Pakistan's national Parliament. *The Northern Areas are directly administered by the Pakistani government *under the Legal Framework Order of 1994; the region is not included in the Pakistani constitution and has no constitution of its own, *meaning there is no fundamental guarantee of civil rights, democratic representation, or the separation of powers.* Executive authority is vested in the minister for Kashmir affairs, a civil servant appointed by Islamabad. A 36-seat Northern Areas Legislative Council (NALC) &#8211; of which 24 seats are filled through direct elections and six each are reserved for women and technocrats from each district &#8211; serves in an advisory capacity and has no authority to change laws or control revenue. Elections to the NALC were held in 2004, with independent candidates and representatives of national political parties winning seats. In October 2007, Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf announced a package of reforms that would change the NALC into the Northern Areas Legislative Assembly, devolving fiscal and legislative powers to locally elected politicians. The package would also allow for the election of a chief executive accountable to the assembly, but it would maintain federal control over the judiciary and the top executive post of "chairman." The region would continue to be administered under the Legal Framework Order rather than a constitutional framework like in Azad Kashmir, thus still falling short of compliance with a 1999 Supreme Court ruling on the issue. At year's end, Pakistan's broader political crisis cast doubt on the future of the proposed reforms.

Azad Kashmir has an interim constitution, an elected unicameral assembly, a prime minister, and a president who is elected by the legislative assembly. Both the president and the assembly serve five-year terms. Of the 49 assembly seats, 41 are filled through direct elections and eight are reserved seats (five for women and one each for representatives of overseas Kashmiris, technocrats, and religious leaders). However, Pakistan exercises considerable control over the structures of government and electoral politics. Islamabad's approval is required to pass legislation, and the minister for Kashmir affairs handles the daily administration of the state and controls the budget. The Pakistani military retains a guiding role on issues of politics and governance.

*As detailed by Human Rights Watch (HRW) in a 2006 report on the region, individuals and political parties who do not support Kashmir's accession to Pakistan are barred from participating in the political process, *standing for election, taking a job with any government institution, or accessing educational institutions. At *least 60 proindependence candidates who belonged to the JKLF, the APNA, and smaller political parties were barred from participating in the July 2006 Azad Kashmir legislative assembly elections.* Overall, HRW noted that the election process was flawed and "greeted with widespread charges of poll rigging by opposition political parties and independent analysts." However, unlike the 2001 elections, the polls featured few instances of physical violence and harassment &#8211; aside from threats &#8211; against candidates or their supporters, possibly because of the greater international presence in the wake of the earthquake. In general, antiaccession parties and individuals are subject to surveillance, harassment, and sometimes imprisonment by Pakistani intelligence and security services.

In 2007, the political crisis in Pakistan reverberated in Kashmir. Chaudhry Majeed, the PPP president for Azad Kashmir, and other party activists were briefly detained in November following Musharraf's declaration of a state of emergency, with some placed under house arrest for 30 days. In December, demonstrators clashed with police, burned tires, and blocked roads in antigovernment protests after the assassination of PPP leader and former prime minister Benazir Bhutto, but there were no reported injuries.

Azad Kashmir receives a large amount of financial aid from the Pakistani government, especially following the 2005 earthquake, but successive administrations have been tainted by corruption and incompetence. A lack of official accountability has been identified as a key factor in the poor socioeconomic development of both Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas. Pakistani-controlled Kashmir was not rated separately in Transparency International's 2007 Corruption Perceptions Index.

The Pakistani government uses the constitution and other laws to curb freedom of speech on a variety of subjects, including the status of Kashmir and incidents of sectarian violence. *In recent years, authorities have banned several local newspapers from publishing and have detained or otherwise harassed Kashmiri journalists.* In March 2007, the government suspended its advertisements in publications by the Dawn English-language media group after it reported on a possible resurgence of official support for militants in Kashmir. In April 2007, Dawn reported that the editor and publisher of the banned monthly Kargil International magazine were indicted on sedition and defamation charges for publishing a proindependence article in 2004. *In addition to pressure and threats from the authorities, journalists have been known to face harassment and attacks from nonstate actors, though no such incidents were reported in 2007. During the state of emergency imposed on the rest of Pakistan in November 2007, cable operators in Kashmir were instructed to suspend broadcasts of most national and international news channels.*
Internet access is not usually restricted but remains confined to urban centers. Deliberately limited telephone and mobile phone access has been expanded in the wake of the 2005 earthquake. The presence of foreign media and aid organizations has also helped to partially open up a tightly controlled information environment. Books that do not adequately adhere to a proaccession stance are regularly banned, according to HRW.

Pakistan is an Islamic republic, and there are numerous restrictions on religious freedom. Religious minorities also face unofficial economic and societal discrimination and are occasionally subject to violent attack. Shia Muslims, who form the majority of the population in the Northern Areas, include a large number of Ismailis, a group that follows the Aga Khan. Sectarian strife between Shiites and the increasing number of Sunni Muslims (many of whom are migrants from elsewhere in Pakistan) first became a concern in 1988 and continues to be a problem. In 2005, several waves of sectarian violence killed almost 100 people and led to a month-long curfew. Sporadic attacks continued to take place during 2006, including the destruction by fire of an Ismaili place of worship, but no violent incidents were reported in 2007.

*Freedoms of association and assembly are restricted. *The constitution of Azad Kashmir forbids individuals and political parties from taking part in activities that are prejudicial to the ideology of the state's accession to Pakistan. As such, police in recent years have regularly suppressed *antigovernment demonstrations, sometimes violently. In 2005, at least 10 people were killed when police opened fire on Shia student protesters, and lengthy curfews were imposed to prevent demonstrators from assembling.* In 2007, police clashed with demonstrators on several occasions, but there were no reports of deaths or lengthy detentions. In October, police baton-charged dozens of people demonstrating against a proposal to move the capital of Azad Kashmir from Muzafarrabad. Three people were arrested but released the same day. In November, police blocked activists of the proindependence APNA who were protesting in favor of truck service across the LOC from entering a town near the ceasefire line as planned.

Nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) are generally able to operate freely. However, the Aga Khan Rural Support Program &#8211; run by the Aga Khan Foundation (AKF), an international development organization that focuses on Ismaili communities worldwide &#8211; has been subjected to harassment and violence. According to the U.S. State Department's 2007 Report on International Religious Freedom, Sunni extremist groups have in recent years vandalized AKF-funded schools and health clinics and have attacked AKF personnel, although no such attacks were reported in 2007. The situation for labor rights in Pakistani-controlled Kashmir is similar to that in Pakistan.

The judiciary of the Northern Areas consists of district courts, a chief court, and since 2005, a separate court of appeals. With appointments based on three-year contracts subject to discretionary renewal, the judiciary is largely subservient to the executive. Azad Kashmir has its own system of local magistrates and high courts, whose heads are appointed by the president of Azad Kashmir. Appeals are adjudicated by the Supreme Court of Pakistan. There are also Islamic judges who handle criminal cases concerning Islamic law. In April 2007, local lawyers protested the appointment to the Azad Kashmir Supreme Court of Justice Mohammad Reaz Akhtar Chaudhry over the court's most senior judge, Justice Manzoor Hussain Gilani, arguing that it violated constitutional conventions and rules of seniority. The newspaper Dawn reported that the Azad Kashmir Supreme Court rejected a petition by the lawyers challenging the appointment and ordered that future petitions of a similar nature not be entertained by the courts.

According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP), Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) operates throughout Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas and engages in extensive surveillance (particularly of proindependence groups and the press), as well as arbitrary arrests and detentions. In some instances, those detained by the ISI, the police, or the security forces are tortured, and several cases of death in custody have been reported. Impunity for acts of torture and other mistreatment of civilians by the military and intelligence services remains the norm. The territory also continues to be governed by the colonial-era Frontier Crimes Regulations, under which residents are required to report to local police stations once a month.

A number of Islamist militant groups, including al-Qaeda, operate from bases in Pakistani-administered Kashmir with the tacit permission of Pakistani intelligence. Tension between Islamist, pro-Pakistan groups and the proindependence Kashmiri groups &#8211; as well as some local residents &#8211; has reportedly intensified in recent years. In June 2007, a land dispute broke out between villagers in Azad Kashmir and the Islamist organization Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JUD), identified by the United States as a terrorist organization. Following the alleged torture of two men and the killing of a 17-year-old boy by JUD members, a mob burned down a temporary hospital the group had established following the 2005 earthquake.

Several hundred families displaced by shelling between Indian and Pakistani forces around the LOC prior to the 2003 ceasefire remain unable to return to their homes and have largely been excluded from earthquake-related assistance schemes. In addition, the Azad Kashmir government manages relief camps for refugees from Indian-administered Kashmir, the bulk of whom arrived after the situation on the Indian side worsened in 1989. Many more of the refugees (roughly 1.5 million) live elsewhere in Azad Kashmir and throughout Pakistan.

The status of women in Pakistani-administered Kashmir is similar to that of women in Pakistan. While the HRCP reports that honor killings and **** occur less frequently than in other areas of Pakistan, domestic violence, forced marriage, and other forms of abuse continue to be issues of concern. Women are not granted equal rights under the law, and their educational opportunities and choice of marriage partner remain circumscribed. In May 2007, the United Nations and other aid agencies temporarily suspended their work after suspected Islamists mounted an arson attack on the home of two aid workers; the organizations had received warnings against hiring women.


http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/topic,463af2212,469f2dcf2,487ca21a2a,0.html


----------



## Leviza

Desi Sher said:


> Well not every threads are closed buddy, Its always welcome as Long as Its healthy enough



yes azad kashmir people are good in everyway coz they dont live with indian gays anymore


----------



## Jade

somebozo said:


> SO if Kashmiris accecede to India, will they get an Indian passport of Kashmiri passport?? Agree a Malyale is different from Assamese and Kashmiri from Bihari but arent they all called Indians??



Yes as you say, Malayalee, Assamee, Kashmiri and Bihari are all Indians


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## mjnaushad

I lost teh count how many times the above article posted by Indian members and discussed.....


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## Leviza

They want azadi coz they dont want to live with indian gaysssssss


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## Desi Sher

Leviza said:


> yes azad kashmir people are good in everyway coz they dont live with indian gays anymore



But they do live with the Other gays in Pakistan


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## Trac

mjnaushad said:


> I lost teh count how many times the above article posted by Indian members and discussed.....



Well you are SENIOR MEMBERS here so can you show us any single thread that show
Azad kashmir really azad or similar to that i am not able to found it can you help me


----------



## Leviza

Trac said:


> Well you are SENIOR MEMBERS here so can you show us any single thread that show
> Azad kashmir really azad or similar to that i am not able to found it can you help me



coz you all indians are gays and your leaders are gays too


----------



## Leviza

Srinagar, Sept 6: Furious over the unprovoked attack on the Imaam of a local Masjid, the residents of the Batmaloo are demanding the removal of the CRPF bunker from the locality even as the overnight protests continued on Monday against the incident.

The CRPF picket is an unusual one, perched on the sixth floor of the shopping complex. The entire shopping complex is occupied by the paramilitary.
*It is the CRPF men from that bunker who have made our life hell. They pelt stones on the residential houses. They even hurl marbles using sling shots, locals said.*
On Sunday evening, they said there wasnt any protest or stone pelting. *The CRPF men from the bunker hurled stones on the residential houses just minutes before Taraweeh prayers. Several stones smashed the windowpanes and landed inside my room. A stone also hit my one-year old son, Tahaan, who was asleep, said, S M Yaseen, the Imaam of the Bazaar Masjid, Batmaloo*.
This incident infuriated the locals who staged pro-freedom protests which continued till late night. They offered Traweeh prayers at 10.30 pm in the night.
On Monday, scores of people from several localities of Batmaloo and Sheikh Dawood colony poured onto streets and continued the protests.

Protesters, mainly young boys, pelted stones on the CRPF bunker, overlooking the entire locality.
CRPF and policemen hurled back the stones at them injuring a civilian, Bashir Ahmad of S D Colony.

There is not a single house whose windows are not smashed. Even the Masjid has been attacked and desecrated time and again, said Nasir Ahmad, a local.
We want the bunker to be removed. Its removal has become imperative now. They even attacked our Imaam Sahab, remarked another youth. We wont hold back unless they vacate the whole shopping complex.

Please stay away if you want to troll or cannot comment positives.... and dont get personal please


----------



## gogbot

*Provide Source

And then Provide Neutral Source for verification*

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Spring Onion

The only Solution to Kashmir is withdrawal of Indian terrorist army from occupied Kashmir.

Simple and straight


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## EjazR

Its the CRPF that is involved not the Indian army.

Anyways, the CRPF has time and again shown itself to be incompeted to say the least. What professional force resorsts to stone pelting against stone pelters.

They should be withdrawn retrained and given better equipment. Throwing stones and using slingshots is stupid.

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## EjazR

*Give us particulars of accused cops troopers Lastupdate:- Tue, 7 Sep 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com*

Srinagar, Sept 6: The Commission of Inquiry, constituted to probe the killings of 17 out of 68 civilians by police and paramilitary troopers since June, has sought reports from the State Government and the Police seeking particulars of the accused troopers and policemen and status of investigations into the cases so far.
Official sources said the two member Commission headed by Justice (Retd) Syed Bashir-ud-Din has asked the Home Commissioner, respective Senior Superintendents of Police and Station House Officers to identify particulars of the troopers and policemen who were on duty at the spot at the time of the killings.
The Commission has also sought names of the magistrates in whose presence the accused troopers and policemen opened fire and teargas canisters resulting in the killings.
&#8220;This will help to establish the identity of the accused troopers and policemen and establish whether they opened fire on their own or on the
orders of the magistrates,&#8221; officials wishing anonymity told Greater Kashmir.
The Commission has asked the police to give comprehensive details of the kind and quantity of the ammunition issued and utilized in the firing by the troopers and policemen on the fateful days.
It has also asked the police to submit whether FIR in respect of the 17 killings has been lodged or not. &#8220;In case no case has been registered, the Commission wants to know if any proceedings under Section 174 CRPC has been initiated. The Commission has asked the police to state whether the post-mortem autopsy of the killed persons was carried or not,&#8221; they said.
The Commission has also directed the police to furnish inquiry reports conducted by the district administration or any other information which it deems relevant.
&#8220;After examining these reports, the Commission will be able to identity the accused personnel who were involved in the killings and initiate proceedings against them,&#8221; sources added.
The terms of reference of the Commission include to enquire into the circumstances leading to deaths by firing or otherwise into the 17 incidents, fixing responsibility wherever excessive force has been used resulting in fatalities, suggest measures to avert the recurrence of such incident in future, recommend the action to be taken against the person (s) or authorities found responsible in any such incident.
On September 1, the Commission issued public notices through newspapers asking the groups of persons, individuals, institutions and associations having knowledge directly or indirectly of facts and circumstances related to the incident to furnish statements in the form of affidavits sworn before any court or magistrate.
The Commission has also assured full protection to the persons who wish to make their statements regarding the incidents. It has also bifurcated the cases of Srinagar, Islamabad and Varmul districts and fixed separate dates and places for depositions. Sources said till now nobody from the Srinagar city, wherefrom the probe was scheduled to start, has approached the Commission to record their statements.
The Commission has decided to dispatch notices to the respective families of the slain teenagers and youth informing the dates of their depositions.
The setting up of an independent Commission of Inquiry to probe the killings was recommended by the All Party Meeting called by Chief Minister Omar Abdullah. The Commission has been formed by virtue of Jammu and Kashmir Commission of Inquiries Act 1962.
It was first constituted on June 26 to probe the killings of two youth, Shakeel Ahmad Ganaie and Firdous Ahmad Khan, in CRPF firing on a procession in Sopur on June 25. However, due to unfavorable situation in the apple town the probe was hampered. Later the Government clubbed these cases with the fresh judicial probe into the 15 other killings. The Commission has to submit its report within three months to the Government.


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## Gentle Typhoon

gogbot said:


> *Provide Source
> 
> And then Provide Neutral Source for verification*



Its 'Greater Kashmir' Newspaper according to Google search. The paper received many threats from ISI-supported/pro-Pakistan militants. DOUBLE STANDARDS.


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## gogbot

Gentle Typhoon said:


> Its 'Greater Kashmir' Newspaper according to Google search. The paper received many threats from ISI-supported/pro-Pakistan militants. DOUBLE STANDARDS.



*I still want neutral source , which is most important.*

These story articles can say whatever they want , in what ever context and people will take it for fact with no verification.

If an article like this is going to supplied as a discussion point for the thread , it should be verified using a neutral source.

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## Eminem

somebozo said:


> Kashmiris want to preserve their identity. They dont want to be called Indians or be forced to put their indentity as secondary. This clause has every support because Kashmir was neither part of British India nor Imperial India. ANd this is their intention they mean cleary "india get out and leave us alone".
> What India can do is withdraw its forces, hand over Kashmir to UN for future referendum and independence. Same case like south sudan.
> 
> UN is quick to react when it comes to dividing Indonesia, Morocco or Sudan and absolutely incompetent to deal with France and India?? WHY??


bcoz they are agents of RAW.Lol


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## Hulk

I want to add, with regards to Kashmir I am getting this feeling that Indian's are living in lala land. I am frustrated that such a grave situation is been taken so lightly. My post points out clearly that unless we take measurable steps we will not be able to douse this fire. I am blame GOI for not being active in resolving this issue. This time situation is worse than militancy. A masterstroke has been played, a non violent movement by an large having widespread support is very dangerous and it will take a lot to put this off. I hope we make some serious moves, carrots won't work. We need to give Kashmiri's roadmap to peace until that happens this will continue or even if it ends due to frustration not good for us.


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## Eminem

Bezerk said:


> So what you're trying to say here is that Pakistan was the one who provided the Kashmiri protesters with sticks and stones? How do you explain the recent 'Unarmed Protests' breaking out in Kashmir?


so you are saying that pakistan is not providing sticks and stones.Ok i admit that.So what you have to say about connections of our seperatist leaders with your country's non state actors.Our seperatist leaders working for their masters.Pakistan don't poke your nose in our personal matter.J&k is belong to us and we now how to solve problems.We don't need any outsider.Did you get that.And by the way we also don't have any contribution in balochistan present situation.

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## MAFIAN GOD

> Protesters, mainly young boys, pelted stones on the *CRPF* bunker, overlooking the entire locality.
> CRPF and policemen hurled back the stones at them injuring a civilian, Bashir Ahmad of S D Colony



CRPF DOES NOT ACT IN KASHMIR.ARMY LOOK AFTER KASHMIR.
SO I THINK ITS A FAKE NEWS.
PLEASE PROVIDE SOURCE.


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## abhi_baba

@indianrabbit

You are the one who has fallen down the rabbit hole, living in a wonderland and has no idea of ground realities which are: 

1. The so called azadi sentiment is limited to 4 districts of the J&K state where a fascist majority drove out the minority from their homes.

2. The protests are not non violent as you are repeatedly portraying in your posts. More than 1200 policemen have been injured in these protests which are being orchestrated by Hurriyat wazir wannabes. Frankly I do not understand the level of brainwashing and hatred is required to convince the parents to send their kids to participate in these riots rather than going to school.

3. The problem can't be solved by giving any political/economic "roadmaps" of any kind. This will only empower those who want to break away from the Indian Union and create an Emirate there.

4. Do you think an independent Kashmir is a viable entity ? How does that factor into the strategic calculation of various regional and global powers including Pakistan,India, Russia, China and US ? 

5. Kashmir is not the most serious problem faced by the Indian Union. 

6. The only solution to Kashmir "problem" is exactly opposite of what you are suggesting. Scrap that offending articles 371 and integrate the Kashmiri people with the Indian Union.

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## Eminem

indianrabbit said:


> I want to add, with regards to Kashmir I am getting this feeling that Indian's are living in lala land. I am frustrated that such a grave situation is been taken so lightly. My post points out clearly that unless we take measurable steps we will not be able to douse this fire. I am blame GOI for not being active in resolving this issue. This time situation is worse than militancy. A masterstroke has been played, a non violent movement by an large having widespread support is very dangerous and it will take a lot to put this off. I hope we make some serious moves, carrots won't work. We need to give Kashmiri's roadmap to peace until that happens this will continue or even if it ends due to frustration not good for us.


things were not simple as you think.Boss kashmiri seperatist only needs indipendence,they don't need jobs,they don't wanna peace.Simple, they don't wanna be a part of india.They were using kashmiri's as their shield.They nothing have to do with kashmiris.They were using them for there political gains.All seperatist working hard for their masters.


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## riCoh

We must not forget, it took 63 deaths in valley to make our PM open his mouth.

Why is Indian army fighting terrorism in kashmir, its not their job. They should secure the border and check infiltration from our friendly neighbourhood,thats it. Is it so difficult for GOI to understand.

Terrorism & militancy is headache of J&K police or sumthing like ATS.
If possible , provide kashmir govt. required resources and scrap article 371.


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## hellofriends

Jana said:


> The only Solution to Kashmir is withdrawal of Indian terrorist army from occupied Kashmir.
> 
> Simple and straight



i think pakistan situation is worse than Kashmir..why not to withdraw "pakistan terrorist army" from Baluchistan and swat....

Simple and straight


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## taimoorlang

I think indian occupation of kashmir is a hindu crime against humanity.

in order to become the greatest democracy in the world, india should let kashmiris choose via a UN administered plebiscite.


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## Eminem

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Why isn't Azad Kashmir in disarray like Indian Occupied Kashmir?
> 
> Why do Kashmiris in Indian Occupied Kashmir hold Pakistan's flag, chant Pakistan and say Hell to India?


bcoz they are working for thier masters.And again i'm saying that these anti nationalist aka seperatistis were not represents whole of kashmir.

Pls take care of your own country which is running on foriegn assitance.


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## Hulk

Eminem said:


> things were not simple as you think.Boss kashmiri seperatist only needs indipendence,they don't need jobs,they don't wanna peace.Simple, they don't wanna be a part of india.They were using kashmiri's as their shield.They nothing have to do with kashmiris.They were using them for there political gains.All seperatist working hard for their masters.



The current movement is not controlled by any leader. Take your head out of sand. We are in danger.


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## TextMiner

Leviza said:


> On Sunday evening, they said there wasnt any protest or stone pelting. *The CRPF men from the bunker hurled stones on the residential houses just minutes before Taraweeh prayers. Several stones smashed the windowpanes and landed inside my room. A stone also hit my one-year old son, Tahaan, who was asleep, said, S M Yaseen, the Imaam of the Bazaar Masjid, Batmaloo*.


I believe that Stone-throwing is a 2-way street ; As goes the famous saying of Stone-throwing and Glass houses. And I * NEVER* receive any condemnation from the Kashmiri separatists or from the common folks, for an incident like *this*.


> Four bandh enforcers allegedly involved in last weeks death of a 11-day-old ailing infant during a Baramulla protest have been arrested, days after the incident triggered outrage across the country.
> 
> Tanveer Ahmad Saleh, Bilal Ahmad Channa, Akhtar Hussain Bhat and Mohammed Ramzan Siraj have been arrested in connection with the murder of the baby. Tanveer was the person who dragged the infants mother out of the vehicle, Jammu and Kashmir law minister Ali Mohammad Sagar told the Assembly today.
> 
> The baby, Irfan, died on February 22 after he slipped and fell when the bandh enforcers dragged his mother out of a minibus while enforcing a shutdown at Chakla village in Baramulla. Police had said the baby suffered internal injuries. The family of Irfan  his father, mother, grandfather and elder sibling  were on way to hospital for his treatment. Obaid, Irfans four-year-old brother, was injured in the head.
> 
> Police sources said Tanveer was a former militant, and was leading one of the many stone-throwing mobs  who have become as big a challenge as militancy for the government  which clashed with cops that day. We have booked him on murder charges. He is from a business family which owns a hotel in Baramulla, an officer said.
> <SNIP>
> No political party in the Valley called for a shutdown against Irfans death, though the incident had sparked outrage across the country, rocked the Assembly and prompted a vow by chief minister Omar Abdullah to have the culprits arrested.


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## Bull

Jana said:


> The only Solution to Kashmir is withdrawal of Indian terrorist army from occupied Kashmir.
> 
> Simple and straight



Well why dont you worry about getting back the surrendered Aksai Chin, Chineese occupied Gilgit, and US occupied NWFP first and then come running to help us.

Cant take care of your own house, chali aye hame sudharne.

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## Eminem

indianrabbit said:


> The current movement is not controlled by any leader. Take your head out of sand. We are in danger.


are you smoking something or what.Seperatist started these movements for thier own political control or gain in this region,but now they don't know how to control this monster.As far as i now that they were also equal contributer to the present situation of kashmir.


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## EjazR

*Indian Army repatriates run away lady from ****
2010-09-07 19:50:00

Sep.7 (ANI): Officials of the Indian Army in Kashmir handed over a run away woman from ***************** Kashmir (*** to the Pakistan Army here on Monday after she crossed over to the Indian side.

Nazia Begum, a resident of Tetrinote village in ***, had crossed the Makki post near the Line of Control (LoC) after fleeing from home.

On being questioned by the security personnel, Nazia revealed about her native place and said that she was a victim of wife-beating. She said she was running away from her husband's daily torture.

"My husband used to beat me up. I ran away and continue to run. I crossed the canal and did not realise that I had crossed the border and from there I was caught.

When asked about the treatment she received from the Indian Army, Nazia said: "They gave me food to eat and treated me well."

"They (Indian Army) gave me respect. Today, they gave me sweets and clothes for Eid. God shall bless the Indian Army. They give so much respect to their enemies also. God bless them," said Nazia.

Officials of the Indian Army later released her from the Chakkandabad post and sent her back as a humanitarian gesture.

"We spoke to the headquarters and as a humanitarian gesture we released her because she has three young children. If she were trapped here, then it would have been a sad thing for her family. So we had a talk with the Pakistan Army, and at the army level, we released her at the Chakkandabad point, where the Pakistan army has taken her," said Amit Nautiyal, Commanding Officer, 8 Kumaon regiment.

Crossing the Line of Control (LoC) is illegal and offenders can be imprisoned. By N.S. Sasan (ANI)


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Coltsfan said:


> Is that a rhetorical question?
> 
> You are not gonna believe Indian figures of # of terrorists killed by Indian security forces anyways. Why ask a question when you don't wanna know the answer?



show me some data on # of ''terrorists'' (AKA local Kashmiris) killed


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## aj_tech123

that's called INDIAN ARMY...We won't kill anyone like terrorists..


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## FreekiN

> "My husband used to beat me up. I ran away and continue to run. I crossed the canal and did not realise that I had crossed the border and from there I was caught.



No gate, no fence, no rocks, no warning signs, no nothing?

Wow.


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## Markus

FreekiN said:


> No gate, no fence, no rocks, no warning signs, no nothing?
> 
> Wow.



For detailed directions with landmarks - try Google maps

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## Avatar

FreekiN said:


> No gate, no fence, no rocks, no warning signs, no nothing?
> 
> Wow.



How do you know ?

There certainly must be some land marks but the lady must have ignored them in her rage. 

Besides if it was so easy to crossover we would be returning a lot more people on a daily basis.


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## RobbieS

> They (Indian Army) gave me respect. Today, they gave me sweets and clothes for Eid. God shall bless the Indian Army. They give so much respect to their enemies also. God bless them," said Nazia.



Notice how the words change from 'They' to 'Indian Army' in the same sentence. Normally its the other way around. Dont seem like her own words.

My guess is that she probably did cross the LoC. (Goes to show how porous it is and if a housewife can cross it, whats stopping the terrorists!). And the Army probably did send her back as a gesture of goodwill. But they also decided to use this occasion and do a little PR exercise to generate goodwill.

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## BATMAN

Why not granted her asylum as Pakistan grant asylum to refugees from Indian occupied Kashmir?


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## Pukhtoon

See Indian army is so Good


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## RollingStones

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Actually UN,UK and others are helping with FOOD and AID programes.. Not to forget *ur the largest AID reciever after WW2!*..I bet it doesnt sound funny now?does it?
> 
> 
> Sure India started as the most industrialised area od british empire we started as the most poor with 1 jute mill,1 textile mill and only 1 university!
> 
> Today we have reduced our poverty to 15% and ur still 50% poor,50% nalnourished,Rampant AIDs and other problems!
> 
> Despite being worlds biggest AID recievers!Recieving 659 BILLION$$$$$!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At last u said something tht actually makes sense!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dont derail the thread its not about balouchistan and its an internal issue of ours!
> 
> Also if u want to ask ur B.S poisonous b.s.Im the correct man as being a baloch frm balouchistan!
> 
> Wat do u know abt baloucistan?except ur B.S dordarshan, star news,sahara samay or ur holly grail the YOUTUBE videos?
> 
> 
> Do u know where Nawab Akbars Family lives? except tht indian passport holding bastard brahamdagh n a few others?
> 
> Do u know they are out casts?Even the bugti tribal elders didnt want em to be the successor to Nawab Akbar and turned him down not 1 not twice but 3 times?
> 
> Mari chiefs and elders still live in kohlu and some are senators just like other chief of bughti clan!!
> 
> Govt. already agreed to there demand of gas loyality by paying them 48 crore rs. and rest 152 crores will be paid!
> 
> Did u ever see any flag except the GREEN AND WHITE hoisted in balouchistan?
> 
> Next time talk abt Balouchistan and be ready for azz kicking replies and possiably a ban!
> 
> 
> 
> So by killing more kashmiri u will fulfill ur ....?
> After 150000 shahdats AND 63 YEARS KASHMIRI FREEDOM STRUGGLE IS STILL GOING STRONG !!



What is the point in roting out misinformation when everyone knows where both countries stand? This is the age of information, if you did not realize. If Kashmiris really wanted an independent nation, they would have gotten it by now.


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## Kharavela

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Leave us dude feed half of ur population dubbed SLUM DOGS!
> 
> I used the word ba..rds for terrorist,does tht make u uncomfortable? did u develop any emotional attachment with these UN black listed scum bags through there indian passports?



i know dear...using foul words are always part and parcel of your life....reason is simple..when truth pricks to your heart then people gets frustrated....and start talking anything .....never mind....at least people should see ...how u guys are behaving in an fourom....


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## MZUBAIR



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## Mohammed Irfan

What r U trying to prove by this picture? There so many articles available on the net where people of Baluchistan refuse to sing pak national anthem. Would you call it as pakistan has lost the Baluchistan???


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## Mohammed Irfan

Jana said:


> They are Indian groupie authorising killing of innocent Kashmiri Civilians, fake encounters, so no mercy for terrorist allies of terrorist army in Kashmir.



Yup U r right. No mercy for Terrorist or terrorist allies thats why this so called separatist should be killed.





> The Indian Invader armymen have been using Kashmiri females as informers and been shooting them dead after using them and at the end blaming freedom fighters for that.



Here you go. Finally you have accepted yourself that kashmiris work for India coz they are Indian and they wanna be with India and not pakistan.




> Kashmir is a disputed country hence there is NO backed or not backed issue. They are Kashmiris and they are fighting against the illegal invaders




Kashmir is not a disputed territory. Its part of India. Its an Indian state. There is a Instrument of accesstion which shows that its been accede to India. Infact *** is a disputed territory as its under illegal control of pakistan.

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## GUNNER

*'Non-lethal' force can be lethal in Kashmir*

*By AIJAZ HUSSAIN (AP)* 

*SRINAGAR, India*  Protesters have a new name for the troops: Robots.

In Kashmir, troops now dress in high-tech black riot gear, covered head to foot in plastic armor that can make them look decidedly inhuman. They carry stun grenades, tear gas grenades and shotguns loaded with  they say  non-lethal pellets.

They are the vanguard trying to fulfill Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's order last month to staunch the bloodshed in Kashmir by using non-lethal measures to control the violent demonstrations that have shaken the Himalayan region for the past three months.

"We're now using a range of non-lethal weapons to control crowds," Shiv Murari Sahai, Kashmir's new police chief, told The Associated Press in an interview in his office in Indian Kashmir's main city Srinagar.

Outside his fortified office, a fleet of armored vehicles and two brand new vehicle-mounted water cannons were lined up, ready to be deployed.

Despite the new orders, protesters were still being killed by security forces using lethal force. Four more were killed Monday when security forces fired live ammunition into crowds of rock-throwing protesters in Palhalan, a village north of Srinagar, police said.

And the non-lethal weapons themselves have also proven lethal.

A separatist insurgency fighting for Kashmir's independence from Hindu-majority India or its merger with Muslim-majority Pakistan has been active since 1989, and tens of thousands of people have been killed in the conflict over the decades.

Resistance has shifted in recent years from militant attacks to street demonstrations.

At least 69 people have been killed and hundreds wounded since a new round of demonstrations broke out in June. Most of the killings occurred when troops fired directly into the demonstrations. After widespread criticism from security experts and human rights groups, the Indian government changed its tactics.

But the bloodshed hasn't ended.

On August 19, the first day paramilitary soldiers used pellets on demonstrators, a 24-year-old man died in the town of Sopore after suffering multiple chest perforations.

A little over a week later, an 11-year-old boy died of similar injuries after soldiers fired pellets at stone throwers in town of Anantnag. 

Dozens more people have been hospitalized with injuries from these weapons. At least two boys are said to be critical.

Doctors say the pellets inflict multiple wounds that can leave them struggling.

"We were treating a young boy for (pellet) splinters in his kidneys and at the same time he had a few more in his heart as well," said a doctor in a Srinagar hospital, who spoke on condition of anonymity, because the government has banned medical workers from speaking to the media.

The protesters can also be violent, with masses of angry demonstrators launching intense barrages of stones against security forces, sometimes surrounding armored vehicles.

Authorities say panicked troops sometimes use the non-lethal weapons improperly  causing serious injuries and even deaths.

"We're facing total defiance on the streets almost every day, and there is little time to use these weapons properly before we'll be lynched by the crowd," said Prabhakar Tripathi, a spokesman for the paramilitary forces.

Sahai, the police chief, acknowledged that more training was needed  and was being planned  for using the new generation of weapons.

But for now, officials say they are finding it difficult to find the time to pull soldiers from the streets for training.

The tactics have spread a new scare among the protesters that many fear as much as death.

"They're now wounding us so badly by these hunting guns that I'm scared to live the life of a disabled," said Wasim, who participated in recent protests and declined to give his full name.


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## ambidex

This is how India will curb this Radical Islamic movement in Kashmir. 
Fanatic Kashmiris are not better than Taliban. Today they are shouting for freedom but have forgotten their past when they bullied Hindus out of the valley. If Kashmir is better off without cleansed kashmiri Pundits than it will be best without Kashmiri Muslims too. Its all about people in peace but land when at war. India is at war with Pakistan over Kashmir since independence and it will do whatever it takes to preserve.

No Muslim, Hindu, Sikh can blackmail union of India, the message is clear a loud, Pakistanis are free to complain. 

Good going Indian forces, we do not need radical Islamic terrorist in India. India has responsibility to maintain tranquility between another 200 million Muslims and 800 million Hindus. Kashmiris deserve to be sidelined period, until unless they are not joining the main stream. They invited forces on Pakistani instigation and involvement into Kashmir. Let them suffer for the baton they are still carrying; they got during Pakistan sponsor hopeless relay.

Kashmiris are running alone and expecting that rest of the world do not know their past when non-Muslims were butchered by them.

However if Pakistan is serious then they shouldn't be changing their position with the flow of convenient winds and liberate Kashmir into Pakistan by force if they can. Pakistan has donated Kashmiri land to China and has constitutionally conceded northern Kashmir into Pakistan federal like India. Pakistan is learning/coping from India but hasn't came up with any new and sincere Idea to cherish kashmiri people on Indian side. 

Furthermore now being snubbed by Kashmiris as they do not want to submerge with Pakistan therefore Pakistan do not has moral ground to shed crocodile tears cause now the matter is between India who is administrating and inhabitants. India is free to try its luck the way she wants. Pakistan is trying to poke its nose uninvited.


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## Ganga

Asim Aquil said:


> The difference is security forces aim and shoot at civilians. The Freedom fighters may *accidentally* kill civilians as collateral damage while trying to blow up security forces.
> 
> The security forces see the civilians as future Freedom fighters and are inherently inclined to shoot first and ask questions later when it comes to the Kashmiris.



Sir there was an incident recently where a woman and her daughter were killed in cold blood for seeking medical help from the army.They were shot even after they begged for their lives.How can you call it accidental?

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## Isaq Khan

Asim Aquil said:


> The difference is security forces aim and shoot at civilians. The Freedom fighters may accidentally kill civilians as collateral damage while trying to blow up security forces.
> 
> The security forces see the civilians as future Freedom fighters and are inherently inclined to shoot first and ask questions later when it comes to the Kashmiris.



One's freedom fighters is others terrorist, isn't it???

pakistani security forces regularly opens fire on local people, women, kids in Baluchistan. 

So we all should condemn all types of terrorism.

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## sachair27

Areesh said:


> What is the national integrity. Making nude and semi nude movies and killing innocents in Kashmir.
> 
> [/QU
> 
> did i see it right????did u pull indian movies in this debate????god u r humorous....btw the maximum number of pirated CDs of these nude n semi nude indian movies actually find their way to pakistan...thats hypocritical...
> now abt innocent kashmiris getting killed....all my sympathies to the people who died...innocents dieing is condemnable no matter where.. but its none of your business....ur country would better look at the condition of undemocratically governed pak administered(occupied for some) kashmir....n the everyday culling of the voice of freedom from pakistan...


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## sachair27

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Where did you get the figure 1 million militants? Are you being cynical because I can be cynical too. Hindu Times of India reported that there are only 30,000-35,000 militants in Pakistan total.
> 
> To answer your question - storming the line of control it will result in a nuclear war with the end result of India being a nuclear wasteland.
> 
> Any more questions?



n no pakistan at all...guess u conveniently forgot to mention this


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## sachair27

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Its 100&#37; guranteed that 3/4 of the indians that post in ths forum are under 18.


that statement in itself show whose a kid


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## rafay321

Crazy *** Indians want to oppress people with force. Welcome to the world's largest democracy.


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## gubbi

rafay321 said:


> Crazy *** Indians want to oppress people with force. Welcome to the world's largest democracy.



Exactly. A sane majority gives its representatives enough power to suppress a violent, directionless, self-destructive, brainwashed, misguided minority!

I say, better than a despot or a minority elite suppressing the majority or even some minorities on the basis of personal whims, religious discrimination or even based on possession of huge swaths of land.


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## Bas_tum_Pak

According to BBC a video has been published in which Kashmiri boys forced to walk nude by Indian security forces.

In Video the language & ascent used by Indian Security forces is same as in Kashmir .

CRPF called this video conspiracy . 




B*** who have done this .


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## Coltsfan

Bas_tum_Pak said:


> According to BBC a video has been published in which Kashmiri boys forced to walk nude by Indian security forces.
> 
> In Video the language & ascent used by Indian Security forces is same as in Kashmir .
> 
> B*** who have done this .



Please post the BBC link or the link for the video.

Otherwise this thread would be deemed work of fiction


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## compak

Ya there was a video, I tried to search it on youtube but it has been removed due to terms of use violation.


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## Bas_tum_Pak

Coltsfan said:


> Please post the BBC link or the link for the video.
> 
> Otherwise this thread would be deemed work of fiction



Don't Worry

I have BBC Link , & I have downloaded this Video . Video contain unsocial things that i don't want to upload to any site.

here is video link

(Not for my sisters)

Video

I have read it on BBC Urdu Site

BBC Urdu link

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## compak

Coltsfan said:


> RAW agents made youtube pull the video?
> 
> just kiddin.........
> 
> Try and find the video and we can discuss......



lol, no I think it was coz of nudity


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Coltsfan said:


> RAW agents made youtube pull the video?
> 
> just kiddin.........
> 
> Try and find the video and we can discuss......



No actually they pull of graphic videos.

Actually one needs to have a brain to understand such things.


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## Awesome

India shouldn't go that far that even freedom would not suffice the Kashmiri vengeance...

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## Bas_tum_Pak

CardSharp said:


> Well the video's been posted. What now?



Nothing, only Shame for India - The World largest Democracy


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## Gentle Typhoon

Post BBC link, anyone can upload video with any title. Nowdays Youtube is full with fake and spam videos like this. Otherwise close thread, its spam fest. No source, No proof.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

This is serious,why is this not in the media as of now?

Even if those boys were terrorist ,i wouldn't support something so low.

Those creatures put our security forces to shame

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Gentle Typhoon said:


> Post BBC link, anyone can upload video with any title. Nowdays Youtube is full with fake and spam videos like this. Otherwise close thread, its spam fest. No source, No proof.



Post no.6 has the video.


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## Coltsfan

CardSharp said:


> Well the video's been posted. What now?



I did find the video online, it is still posted on some sites.

It does appear to be Indian security forces based on the language and the "choice words" they are using. Based on the circumstantial evidence I would agree that this incident did happen.

IMO it was deplorable and shameful. I hope the Indian authorities would find out who is responsible for this and meet suitable punishment to the people responsible.

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## Gentle Typhoon

Here is crappy Google translation -

Circulation is a video on the Internet in which some young people can be seen in brhnh condition and security officers dressed in fatigues are some people taking them.

Video viewing and spoken with people involved think it administered Kashmir in India has been formulated. Indian paramilitary force CR PF spokesman as saying that the wrong video this is a conspiracy is. 

Social interaction on the Web site Facebook to circulate this video last night about three minutes in which seven or eight young people can be fully seen brhnh.

These young men are holding in your hands all the clothes and wearing only shoes. With their police and security forces personnel in the urdyun people seem to think those discussions brhnh taken to police station people being.

This area seems to be a field or fields and are visible behind trees. It seems the quality of video on mobile phones has made 

Speaking entire video in one continuous sounds. He is repeatedly told Young that he tried covering his body and of his clothes do not keep up.

He also says that a place the boys had trouble with them in the morning. He directed a partner with the boys does not kill stomach.

Background sounds also hear other people are apparently making fun of them are Yusuf Ali.

*But it is difficult to say where the video was made, who made it, who published on the Internet is and when, nor that which is being taken to the youth who they are. *

But many people face are clearly visible.

Those who see the police are in uniform and who constantly hear is the sound of his tone, as it apparently is for Kashmiris.


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## Bas_tum_Pak

Bombensturm said:


> This is serious,why is this not the media as of now?
> 
> Even if those boys were terrorist ,i wouldn't support something so low.



No One is terrorist there , This is all Indian drama since long ...

Some time they (Forces) kill Innocents, torture them , make them homeless or Make them Nude and ask them to march on Roads ...

... and Kashmirs Suffering all this ...

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## Gentle Typhoon

People are forced to walk nude everywhere in South Asia, cruel police. Deplorable 'if' true.


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## Skies

Get desperate, as it's now the last time. And kick India from there.

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## BATMAN




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## Salahadin

Unbelievable these inhumane act by Indian forces gives us signal that not long Indian held Kashmir will be out of Indian Map soon INSHALLAH

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## bandit

Bas_tum_Pak said:


> No One is terrorist there , This is all Indian drama since long ...
> 
> Some time they (Forces) kill Innocents, torture them , make them homeless or Make them Nude and ask them to march on Roads ...
> 
> ... and Kashmirs Suffering all this ...



If you watched the video it is state police that is taking the boys to a police station. Know who the people are in state police are---Kashmiris themselves. So stop making it out as if its the evil Indian army parading them nude since they are Kashmiris.

They also say that they had been chasing them all morning so obviously these boys weren't innocent either.

So is it right to parade them nude?? Definitely not--but its more a case of bad policing, common in our sub-continent, than Indian atrocities as some are making it out to be here. 



> ... and Kashmirs Suffering all this ...


Maybe you have become ultra sensitive to bad policing after sialkot, but those tears don't look real to me.

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## Jigs

Low stuff. Exactly where does India find their security guys ? They should look into this. Lots of violations in Kashmir and i am sure they know about it. Are they ok with it ?


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## Gentle Typhoon

^ Yes its just a case of bad policing, common in our sub-continent.


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## Skies

What are these bloodies doing with these innocent kids? Last time, BSF killed one BDman by cutting his tendons of legs and hands and then threw in river when he became senseless.

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## Materialistic

> Local Kashmiri police.



Yeah, i see in a month all the police in kashmir is replaced!!!



> What are these bloodies doing with these innocent kids? Last time, BSF killed one BDman by cutting his tendons of legs and hands and then threw in river when he became senseless



Common, that would be the guy himself, he would have cut himself and then thrown his unconscious body into river and maybe later wrote a letter to blame BSF. 

Or maybe there were Pakistani rangers, who borrowed BSF unifrom!!


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## bandit

Materialistic said:


> Yeah, i see in a month all the police in kashmir is replaced!!!



If you listen to them its quite obvious they are Kashmiris, their khaki dress is of state police, and they talk of taking these boys to the _Thana_ that is police outpost.


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## Coltsfan

Salahadin said:


> Unbelievable these inhumane act by Indian forces gives us signal that



1) Anyone who has lived in hostel in India has perhaps gone through ragging which includes stripping naked to bare bottoms. 
I would call it demeaning and shameful but not inhumane. Beheading people in the name of religion would qualify as "inhumane act" though.



> not long Indian held Kashmir will be out of Indian Map soon INSHALLAH



2) Pakistanis have waited 63 years for that to happen, fought 3 wars, lost half of nation, spent billions of $ on armed forces and yet Kashmir situation hasn't changed since 1948.

Are you telling me stripping and parading few boys by Kashmiri police is going to change things?

Mashallah

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## bandit

CardSharp said:


> Well the video's been posted. What now?



Case of bad policing rife in the sub-continent, I bet Chinese come across something like this sometimes too?


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## NWO

Well, has anyone found out the background story to this? Did the guards smoke some weird mushrooms or something?


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

NWO said:


> Well, has anyone found out the background story to this? Did the guards smoke some weird mushrooms or something?



They were normal i guess,have heard of many more incidents of abuse by Indian police ,this one being the worst.


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## Beskar

*Enough with the BS posts and oneliners. If you don't have anything to say, move on!*

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## Donatello

Skies said:


> What are these bloodies doing with these innocent kids? Last time, BSF killed one BDman by cutting his tendons of legs and hands and then threw in river when he became senseless.



I asked a question in the other thread about why Kashmiris are getting so violent against Indian Armed Occupation. I honetsly didn't know the reason. Now i think i know why.


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## NWO

This cannot be good for the near future. India will have her hands full.


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## Coltsfan

penumbra said:


> I asked a question in the other thread about why Kashmiris are getting so violent against Indian Armed Occupation. I honetsly didn't know the reason. Now i think i know why.



You still don't know the reason......... 

Police atrocities happen all over India, they are not specific to Kashmir.

You might wanna ask the countries that provide "moral" support to Kashmir insurgents, they may be able to better explain why some Kashmiris are getting violent.


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## Coltsfan

NWO said:


> This cannot be good for the near future.



Agreed!!



> India will have her hands full.



Nothing Indian security forces can't handle. If stone pelting solved any serious problem Palestine issue would have been solved ages ago


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## NWO

Coltsfan said:


> Nothing Indian security forces can't handle. If stone pelting solved any serious problem Palestine issue would have been solved ages ago


It's not if they can handle, but are there any alternatives?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

quite disgusting , no comment

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## S_O_C_O_M

*Pakistan Must Raise Human Rights Abuse Issues in Kashmir to UN​*
Pakistan must raise current human rights abuses by Indian forces in the United Nations Security Council
In conformity with the stated stand of Pakistan of moral, diplomatic and political support for Kashmir, it is imperative that Pakistan should take steps to raise the issue of continued Human Right Abuses in Indian-Held Kashmir and ask the Security Council to:

1) Condemn the Indian government for the indiscriminate use of force which has resulted in the killing of innocent people in Indian Held Kashmir 

2) Release all the prisoners that are held in Indian jails. 

3) Revoke all draconian Laws which are in contravention to international laws and remove all its forces from civilian areas so that steps for peaceful settlement of Kashmir can begin through Dialog, based on the inalienable right of Kashmir's self determination as guaranteed by the United Nation Charter.

This was stated by Habib Yousafzai, Spokesman for the World Kashmir Diaspora Alliance in Toronto in a statement issued for the press. Spokesman further said that while the flood has ravaged Pakistan, Kashmiri's have all the sympathy for the people of Pakistan, who are going through one of the toughest times in their history. It is also important that Pakistan must not be oblivious of what is happening in Kashmir.

The Spokesman added that Farooq Papa who heads the World Kashmir Diaspora Alliance will be attending a three day seminar from 14th September in the European Parliament on Kashmir which is titled "Beauty of Kashmir, Preserved Past and Bruised Present." The Spokesman Said the Seminar is hosted by renowned Parliamentarian Mr. Sajad Karim who heads the friends of Pakistan forum in European Parliament along with Kashmir Council EU and IKV Pax a European NGO.

Pakistan Must Raise Human Rights Abuse Issues in Kashmir to UN


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## IndianArmy

I would rather not blame the armed forces, I would Want to blame the govt..... The Govt is Using the Army For Engineering,Building Bridges in strategic and Non Strategic Areas,Rescue Works, If we were to do All this Why has Govt of India created National Disaster Management Authority (NDMA)???

Army On the Other hand Is trying to make Peace with the People of kashmir By Educating and Entertaining the Children In our base camp, By helping the Villagers sell there harvest , If they are Not able to sell it army buys it in bulk... And The Govt Of India is Using the Army where its Not Needed, and Hence It Provokes the Insecurity feeling in the Villagers, Its really not the Army whom they hate but the actions of the govt...


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## Awesome

*Indian Army repeating Abu Gharib in Kashmir*



> -Video showing Kashmiri boys paraded naked by forces sparks outrage
> 
> -Tripathy, Sagar reject charges, say clip doctored to malign forces
> 
> Srinagar: A three minute video clip purportedly showing some young Kashmiri boys being paraded naked by the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) and police in Sopore town of North Kashmir has triggered outrage in the valley.
> 
> The clip titled Indian Army repeating Abu Gharib in Kashmir is doing rounds on the popular social networking site, Facebook after it was uploaded by a user on the intervening night of September 6-7. The video shot with a mobile phone camera at an unknown location shows several alleged stone pelters being paraded naked by the troops and police through paddy fields. The video has been packaged with subtitles and background music.
> 
> This video should be avoided by sisters and children. This video contains disturbing scenes of brutality unleashed by Indian soldiers on Kashmiri young men in Sopore region of the Valley. In this video young men have been stripped naked and are being paraded through their village by Indian soldiers. Viewers discretion (is) highly recommended, the statutory warning on the clip says.
> 
> In the clip, authenticity of which is yet to be established, CRPF men and police are hurling choicest abuses at the youth allegedly detained during clashes between protesters and the forces. The stripped youth are also forced to raise their hands leaving their private parts uncovered. The security men are also heard mocking the plight of the detained youth.
> 
> Mystery also shrouds the person operating the mobile camera. The place and the year the video has been shot are also unclear.
> 
> The video has sent shockwaves and stirred a debate among the tens of thousands of users on Facebook. The video shared by outraged Kashmiri youth with their online friends and contacts has evoked sharp condemnation from the Facebook users across the globe, including India. Some of the users have even compared the abuse of the alleged stone pelters by the forces with the prisoners of infamous Abu Gharib jail in Iraq.
> 
> I am daughter of an Indian army officer. Im embarrassed and shocked, comments, Avleen Gill, a graduate from Saint Bedes college.
> 
> Asrar Nazir, a Kashmiri, writes that Aman Goth, the General in Hitlers Army was hanged in public for parading Jews naked in a concentration camp in Poland. In India, he says, democracy exists on papers only.
> 
> Its a shocking and brutal act. Is this the democracy India is proud of? he adds.
> 
> Another Kashmiri Facebook user, Karim Nanvor comments that he was not surprised by the video as double standards were the bench mark of civilized nations.
> 
> World sees India as a rising power which can do nothing wrong. It is our duty to keep world updated.
> 
> Kaptaan Singh, a resident of North Indias Punjab state comments: After looking at this video, I feel ashamed to call myself Indian.
> 
> See how Indian troops humiliate Kashmiris. Where are the champions of the human rights? Dr Waleed Sheikh, a Kashmiri working in Uzbekistan asks.
> 
> Noted human rights activist and Program Coordinator of Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society (JKCCS), Khurram Parvez said that such incidents were not new and have occurred in the last 20 years of conflict, especially in jails and interrogation camps where youth were subjected to severe physical torture.
> 
> There is nothing new in the video clip. Stripping off the detainees, parading them naked and inserting wire in their private parts was a normal practice in jails and interrogation centers. The video has created a furor because it has been released in public domain, Khurram said.
> 
> Now we have to see how the civil society reacts to this revelation. We have to see if this clip pricks the conscience of Indian masses, he adds.
> 
> Pertinently, last year police had allegedly forced 11 youth to sodomize each other during their detention at Maharaj Gunj police station on the charges of stone pelting. Police, according to the counsel of the youth, Advocate Bashir Sidiq had also filmed the incident.
> 
> Refuting the allegations, CRPF, spokesperson, Prabhakar Tripathi said the modern technology has made it possible to create video clips easily. The clip in question, he said, was the handiwork of the people who want to harm the image of the force.
> 
> There is not even one percent truth in the video. It has been manipulated to malign the image of our men. I categorically deny its contents, he added.
> 
> Minister for Rural Development, Law, Justice and Parliamentary Affairs, Ali Mohammad Sagar raised question over the authenticity of the clip.
> 
> I doubt the authenticity of the video clip. Forces cannot indulge in such immoral activities. However, if proven, stern action will be initiated, Sagar said.(PBI)

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## Jigs

> Refuting the allegations, CRPF, spokesperson, Prabhakar Tripathi said the modern technology has made it possible to create video clips easily. The clip in question, he said, was the handiwork of the people who want to harm the image of the force.
> 
> There is not even one percent truth in the video. It has been manipulated to malign the image of our men. I categorically deny its contents, he added.
> 
> Minister for Rural Development, Law, Justice and Parliamentary Affairs, Ali Mohammad Sagar raised question over the authenticity of the clip.
> 
> I doubt the authenticity of the video clip. Forces cannot indulge in such immoral activities. However, if proven, stern action will be initiated, Sagar said.(PBI)




This part worries me.


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## Coltsfan

Jigs said:


> This part worries me.



The tape needs to be scrutinized to find out who are the culprits and who are the victims to present a case against them and compensate the victims.

What's the harm in that? Why so insecure about the authenticity of the tape?


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## Xeric

Here's the video:

Mature Kashmiri boys forced to walk nude on the road by the indian security - 9-Human Rights - Kash Tube

Watch and curse!



P.S. Viewer discretion is advised.

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## Awesome

*Bhooka nanga Hindustan; Jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Starving and tattered India we reject; Pakistan - land of our dreams - we embrace.)*

DAWN.COM | Columnists | Kashmir?s struggle is just one of many fighting Indian injustices



> A particularly disturbing slogan heard in the Kashmir Valley, where its young school-goers and old patriarchs, angry women and restive youth are courageously defying Indian rule, is enough to put off any sensitive sympathiser. Bhooka nanga Hindustan; Jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Starving and tattered India we reject; Pakistan - land of our dreams - we embrace.)
> 
> This slogan conveys acute political bankruptcy in a region which has lived with naked military repression for more than 20 years. Im sure any Pakistani with a sense of justice would also be uncomfortable with the warped mindset the slogan betrays.
> 
> That Kashmir is reeling under Indian occupation is not a secret. That Pakistan has played a questionable role there is also well known. Yet, for Kashmiris to see their struggle as part of the many battles being waged by the poorest of the poor against the Indian states multi-pronged injustices against its own people, would not compromise or be a contradiction in Kashmirs struggle for self-determination. The simple question for Kashmiris to ask themselves is, isnt the same state that has killed 60 young Kashmiris in three months, also responsible for tens of thousands of suicides by indebted farmers in India? Does Sharmila Irom, who is fighting to repeal the law that gives unbridled powers to security forces in her Manipur state have no relevance for the same struggle in Kashmir?
> 
> The tribespeople of Chhatisgarh, Orissa, Jharkhand and West Bengal are fighting for their fundamental rights. One of their demands is that they not be evicted from their homes to accommodate corporate land grab. Is this not what Kashmiri Pandits suffered at the hands of the Indian state as well as non-state actors in their homeland without any redress from successive Indian governments that claim to represent them?
> 
> Indian Home Minister P. Chidambaram and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh have often cajoled dissident groups, including the banned Maoists, to come for talks within the constitutional framework. Why cant the affected groups simultaneously expose the insincerity of the Indian state? To take just one example, the preamble of the Indian constitution describes the nation as a socialist and secular republic.
> 
> Socialism is thus the law of the land. Which Indian government, including the one led by Chidambaram-Singh duo, has come anywhere close to keeping the promise of socialism? Just the opposite. Both have callously opened the country to the depredations of private capital.
> 
> I met a Kashmiri separatist a few days after the Babri masjid was razed in Ayodhya. He happened to be the only senior enough leader to be still dodging the police in Srinagar. The rest were in jail. He told me he didnt care for the plight of Indian Muslims in the wake of the Ayodhya outrage. They have never helped the Kashmiris, so why should we bother with them?
> 
> The explanation for his aloofness was ironical. How can we forget the *senior Indian minister telling journalists during the Agra summit that if Kashmir was to be given to Pakistan on the basis of religious claims, should not the Indian Muslims then be packed off in special trains to Pakistan?* Kashmiris and Indian Muslims may see themselves as separate entities with separate causes. But their detractors will always see them as one headache. Check this out with Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi who knows Indian Muslims as children of Mian Musharraf.
> 
> I put the question to some Kashmiri intellectuals in Delhi recently. I asked them how was it that a movement with international ramifications and wide support among a number of Muslim states could be so self-absorbed that it didnt have a policy much less a worldview about other peoples sufferings. Kashmiris did speak up once for the Palestinians, but now it seems they do not have the energy for even that. On the other hand, there is no dearth of seemingly unrelated groups that lend them moral support. A recent rally in Canada of Sikhs and Kashmiri activists, who protested against Indias brutality in the Valley, could be a case in point. A few weeks ago an obscure Tamil group in India issued a statement in support of Kashmiris. Do the Kashmiris want to know who the members of the Tamil group are?
> 
> There is something about this that reminds me of an interaction I once had with Gen Pervez Musharraf in Islamabad. He had just returned from a visit to Colombo where his government was giving military and political support to the government against Tamil rebels. I said how was the Tamil struggle any different from the Kashmiri movement since both stemmed from the denial of the right to self-determination. Gen Musharraf said he didnt want to comment on another countrys internal matter. So he too chose the injustice, which suited him most.
> 
> Vidya Subrahmaniam of The Hindu has done an interesting comparison of three major pogroms in India, each fighting its own battle without getting involved with the sorrows of each other.
> 
> The Orissa violence, in which Hindu-Adivasis targeted Dalit Christians, was undoubtedly smaller in scale compared to Gujarat 2002 and Delhi 1984. Despitevariations, the three pogroms could have been written, produced and directed by a single satanic mind, judging by the astonishing similarity in the detail and sequence of events and the stunning brutality of the crimes committed, says Subrahmaniam.
> 
> In his November 2002 foreword to the report of the Concerned Citizens Tribunal, which collected 2,094 oral and written testimonies from Gujarats victim-survivors as well as human rights groups, Justice V.R. Krishna Iyer said: The gravamen of this pogrom-like operation was that the administration reversed its constitutional role, and by omission and commission, engineered the loot, ravishment and murder which was methodically perpetrated through planned process 
> 
> Eight years later, as Subrahmaniam notes, the jury at the Kandhamal Tribunal had similar words to say: The jury records its shock and deep concern for the heinous and brutal manner in which the members of the Christian community were killed, dismembered, sexually assaulted and tortured  There was rampant and systematic looting and destruction of houses and places of worship and means of livelihood  The jury is further convinced that the communal violence in Kandhamal was the consequence of a subversion of constitutional governance in which state agents were complicit.
> 
> When, in the aftermath of Indira Gandhis 1984 assassination, thousands of Sikhs were massacred on the streets of Delhi, the commonly-held view was that it was an aberration brought about by an extraordinary situation. Comparisons were made with the 1947 Partition riots but few could have known at that time that the clinically planned and executed anti-Sikh pogrom would serve as a model for two more episodes of mass aggression against minorities, The Hindu analysis said.
> 
> India has spawned a coalition of injustices. For those in the Kashmiri resistance to show solidarity with those fighting the same bloated, militarised state that they are, will not compromise their goal. It would only deepen their vision and sharpen their ideas of what kind of azadi they are fighting for.



Of course the article deals with all separatist movements within India. The problem is simple to show unification of separatist movements of India would only harden India's position to let go of Kashmir. India will undoubtedly see the Kashmir movement has the disintegration of 30-40% of the the nation. Moreover, the cohesive planning that the Kashmiris have done (political parties, international relations, armed power, street power, rich culture), lacks from lets say Maoist movement that seems more like a tribal movement, or the Tamil movement, which is ever ready to bomb civilians to make their point.

I think what the Kashmiris are doing is the best they can out of a horrible situation imposed upon them by India. The fact that Indian Muslims are still ready to appease and fit in with their Hindu fellow citizens really does land them in no man's land. Never accepted by Hindus, yet forced to reject their Muslim causes world over.

It is true that they have to face the brunt of the Hindu violent groups if they fail to do so, so this pretend exercise is something that may also be necessary, but no rights are ever won without a struggle and true secularism will never be in place in India till the culture of appeasement is dropped.

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## IndianArmy

Well its there own Slogan right??? *"Bhooka Nanga Hindustan"*, Well those slogans were just Implemented On them I guess.... But anyways a Shameful act

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## Xeric

Gentle Typhoon said:


> ^ Yes its just a case of bad policing, common in our sub-continent.


Not exactly that 'common', bad policing is one thing and making people run naked is another.



Gentle Typhoon said:


> People are forced to walk nude everywhere in South Asia, cruel police. Deplorable 'if' true.



The last time i checked it was india where shredding people's cloth off was a norm - the 'entire' South Asia didnt figure out anywhere then.



N.B. Ahh.. such innocence...!!

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## Paan Singh

Asim Aquil said:


> *Bhooka nanga Hindustan; Jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Starving and tattered India we reject; Pakistan - land of our dreams - we embrace.)*
> 
> DAWN.COM | Columnists | Kashmir?s struggle is just one of many fighting Indian injustices
> 
> 
> 
> Of course the article deals with all separatist movements within India. The problem is simple to show unification of separatist movements of India would only harden India's position to let go of Kashmir. India will undoubtedly see the Kashmir movement has the disintegration of 30-40% of the the nation. Moreover, the cohesive planning that the Kashmiris have done (political parties, international relations, armed power, street power, rich culture), lacks from lets say Maoist movement that seems more like a tribal movement, or the Tamil movement, which is ever ready to bomb civilians to make their point.
> 
> I think what the Kashmiris are doing is the best they can out of a horrible situation imposed upon them by India. The fact that Indian Muslims are still ready to appease and fit in with their Hindu fellow citizens really does land them in no man's land. Never accepted by Hindus, yet forced to reject their Muslim causes world over.
> 
> It is true that they have to face the brunt of the Hindu violent groups if they fail to do so, so this pretend exercise is something that may also be necessary, but no rights are ever won without a struggle and true secularism will never be in place in India till the culture of appeasement is dropped.



i dont want to comment on the javed nakvi's paragraph but i laugh at the way he is saying the kashmir will lead to 30-40% disintegration.tamilnadu will break up bala bla----.he needs to live in india,maoist movement(which is related to development),hindu extremist(he doesnt know how much they get attention and wat ppl think abt this).he is representing india as an state on brisk of insurgency.he needs to think n need to live in india rather than posting and writing in pakistan.the problem is realted to kashmir on ly only by few separatist ,not by whole india atleast i never heard abt this with living in india.

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## bandit

> I think what the Kashmiris are doing is the best they can out of a horrible situation imposed upon them by India. The fact that Indian Muslims are still ready to appease and fit in with their Hindu fellow citizens really does land them in no man's land. Never accepted by Hindus, yet forced to reject their Muslim causes world over.



Why is it so hard for some to accept the fact that Indian Muslims have a decent life in a hindu majority country, and that they choose their country over some non-existent cause of religion. Their is no appeasement going on, Muslims fight for their causes and rights if they feel wronged. It is because they have accepted their country first that they are progressing. For everybody in India, country comes first.

They do not need to be deserve to be looked down upon as inferiors because somebody claims to be a better Muslim. That they rejected the flawed concept of countries for religions, doesn't make them irreligious.

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## somebozo

Never underestimate the power of people..Russia once also saw itself invicible and took pride on the "soviet" indentity. Indian ideas of nationalism also reel from same legacy and there is a possibility no matter how little of them meeting the same fate!


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## Awesome

bandit said:


> Why is it so hard for some to accept the fact that Indian Muslims have a decent life


The massacres of Muslims?

The continuous threats by government officials to send them to Pakistan?

The state cajoling the perpetrators of the babri mosque demolition? 

"Ghulami main khush hain, abhi doosron ki
Ke rehtay hain jannat main, woh ahmakon ki".

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## Coltsfan

> Never accepted by Hindus, yet forced to reject their Muslim causes world over.



How were indian muslims forced to reject muslim causes world over?

India supported Palestine movement since its beginning, we didn't even have diplomatic relations with Israel till the 90s.

India even offered to become a member of OIC because we have so many Muslims in India.

Infact, India was one of the first (if not THE first) country to ban Satanic Verses when it came out, bowing to the Indian muslim's sentiments.

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## S_O_C_O_M

*Gilani condemns stepped up acts of Indian state terrorism ​*
Srinagar, September 08 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Gilani, has condemned the stepped up acts of Indian state terrorism in the territory.

Syed Ali Gilani in a statement issued in Srinagar said that India should withdraw its troops from the occupied territory, revoke all the draconian laws including Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA), release all the pro freedom leaders and activists and stop gross rights abuses in the valley. 

He said that the troops were killing innocent Kashmiri people with impunity due to the invocation of black laws. Gilani denounced the statement of Indian Armys Northern Command Chief, Lieutenant General B S Jaiswal that occupation forces needed AFSPA under special circumstances.

Veteran Hurriyet leader said that curfew had been imposed in 60 out of the past 87 days by the authorities to create hardships for the people. He called for a complete strike, tomorrow, against the killing of four innocent Kashmiris by the troops in Palhalan.

Asking the people of Kashmir to celebrate Eid with simplicity and austerity, he said that India could not muzzle Kashmiris just voice through use of brute force. On one hand India talks of dialogue and on the other its troops have unleashed reign of terror in the occupied valley, he added.

Syed Ali Gilani appealed the United Nations and Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) to impress upon India to resolve the Kashmir dispute according to the aspirations of Kashmiris. 

Gilani condemns stepped up acts of Indian state terrorism | Kashmir Media Service


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## Pride

Who cares about few bugger's slogan? Last time Lashkar's slogan was "aayi aayi Laskhar aayi, Bharat teri maut aayi"... oops we all are dead..

Bhookha nanga Hindustaan.. lol we are world's 2nd fastest economy and getting compared with Pakistan. Isn't it display the brainwashed mind of youths?

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## roach

The Kashmiri Muslims are unfortunate in the fact that they occupy a part of a state that is shared by other ethnic groups- Hindu, Muslim and Buddhist, who have no interest in seceding from India.

What makes their situation worse are their Pakistani 'friends' across the border, who are more interested in dismembering India to avenge 1971 that in their (Kashmiri's) well-being.

As much as I hate to admit, the only solution to this mess is to emulate the Chinese in Tibet- remove article 370 and ethnically dilute the valley, let people all over India buy land in the Valley, let development money pour in.

The color of money and prosperity will cure Kashmiri ills.

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## S_O_C_O_M

*4 more Kashmiris Killed by Indian forces ​*
TopNews 
Written by MTT Staff Reporter 
Monday, 06 September 2010 21:46 







Srinagar, September 06, 2010: Indian forces, in their fresh acts of state terrorism, martyred four more innocent Kashmiri youth in Kupwara and Pattan areas of Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir.

The forces martyred three youth at Afroda in Handwara area of Kupwara during a siege and search operation, which continued till last reports came in.

A 15-year-old boy was martyred when Indian forces open fire on a group of youth at Bhat Mohalla in Pattan. 

Killing took place in Pahallan Pattan when security forces opened fire at protesters in a village on the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad highway in Kashmir's Baramulla district. The injured were shifted to Srinagar for medical care. The Kashmiri protesters were protesting at Srinagar-Muzaffarabad highway, when Indian forces to opened fire.

The area was tense after the incident as villagers blocked traffic on the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad highway. Eyewitnesses said that escort of senior officer resorted to indiscriminate firing on protesters, killing a teenager Showket Ahmad on spot and injuring thirteen others who were hospitalised. The condition of three of the injured is stated to be very critical.

Nearly 100 Kashmiris are martyred, so far, by Indian forces in last one month. Kashmiris are demanding the right of Self-Determination from last 64 years, which was given to them by UNO, when India dragged the Issue of Kashmir on UN Floor in 1947.

India's founding father Mr. Gandhi and other prominent leaders, including Mr. Nehru and Mr. Patel promised many times, the right of Self-Determination for the people of Kashmir. But later, when situation in Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir came fully under Indian control. India denied to give the right of Self-Determination and declared the Occupied territory of Jammu & Kashmir, a part of Indian Union.

Since then Kashmiris are fighting against Indian occupation of the state of Jammu & Kashmir. More than 1,00,000 Kashmiris are killed by Indian forces, in last 64 years. This number does not include those who were allegedly abducted by Indian Army and their fate is yet not known.

4 more Kashmiris Killed by Indian forces


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## Coltsfan

Asim Aquil said:


> The massacres of Muslims?



Muslims are being massacred in Islamic Pakistan too.



> The continuous threats by government officials to send them to Pakistan?



What govt officials? Can you be more precise, such vague statements makes it difficult to rebutt.



> The state cajoling the perpetrators of the babri mosque demolition?



Indian voters deposed the govt of party that supposedly cajoled mosque demolition

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## Pride

Asim Aquil said:


> The massacres of Muslims?
> 
> The continuous threats by government officials to send them to Pakistan?
> 
> The state cajoling the perpetrators of the babri mosque demolition?
> 
> "Ghulami main khush hain, abhi doosron ki
> Ke rehtay hain jannat main, woh ahmakon ki".



Dont be so delusion minded... Could you explain downsizing of Minorities in Pakistan and increasing minorities in India?

*"But hum ko kahein Kaafir, Allah ki marzi hai"*

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## trident2010

Asim Aquil said:


> *
> 
> &#8220;Bhooka nanga Hindustan, Jaan se pyaara pakistan"*


*

Its funny . It reminds me of slogans politicians coin during elections .. for example "Jab tak suraj chand rahega ...... tera naam rahega" and the truth is no one remembers the name after the dinner . No ordinary person makes slogans like that, one can easily smell some sort of political mind behind it. I feel bad for our people there, they deserve better living conditions as they are one of the states of Republic of India. 


People want to resume normal life but mischiefs won't let them. But now they have taken the matter in their own hands:

Protesters in Kashmir face stones, their own bitter pill - The Times of India

And for the remaining trouble makers who survived the ordinary people rage:




Main Hoon Naa !! 





*


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Asim Aquil said:


> The massacres of Muslims?
> 
> 
> The continuous threats by government officials to send them to Pakistan?
> 
> The state cajoling the perpetrators of the babri mosque demolition?
> 
> "Ghulami main khush hain, abhi doosron ki
> Ke rehtay hain jannat main, woh ahmakon ki".



*Pls spare us this well rehearsed rhetoric, conditions of Indian Muslims is hardly any worse than that of Pakistani Muslims. 
*
Every day muslims dying in Pakistan, some are killing each other, others are being killed by govt forces.

labeling of Muslims as Kafirs or non Muslims is not a phenomenon, which is not unheard off in Pakistan.

and *if you want proof of the above then compare the number of Muslims, who died (un-natural violent death) in India and Pakistan in last week or month or year.*

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## bandit

Asim Aquil said:


> The massacres of Muslims?
> 
> The continuous threats by government officials to send them to Pakistan?
> 
> The state cajoling the perpetrators of the babri mosque demolition?
> 
> "Ghulami main khush hain, abhi doosron ki
> Ke rehtay hain jannat main, woh ahmakon ki".



If massacres are the yardstick, you would agree they are in a much better condition here.

Threat by Govt. officials...can they send somebody to Pakistan...I didn't know a rule like that existed, or maybe they just drive them up to the LoC and push them over...maybe you have a source for that.

Babri was a shame...a collective one at that, but nowhere does it mean that Muslims are massacred in India as a regular affair. Incidents like these are an aberration, and occur in your country too, doesn't mean they are state sponsored. 
Most of them are free to live like they want, follow their faith and earn their bread... and could do without people telling them what they need to do to become better than sub-standard Muslims.

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## brahmastra

low life Jawed Naqvi is known for his anti-India articles. who cares?

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## notsuperstitious

Asim Aquil said:


> The massacres of Muslims?
> 
> The continuous threats by government officials to send them to Pakistan?
> 
> The state cajoling the perpetrators of the babri mosque demolition?
> 
> "Ghulami main khush hain, abhi doosron ki
> Ke rehtay hain jannat main, woh ahmakon ki".



Such rhetoric is useful for you to justify the failed state of Pakistan in comparison to the state of Muslims in India. Thats all.

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## brahmastra

one more fake news by MarktheTruth.


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## Pride

brahmastra said:


> low life Jawed Naqvi is known for his anti-India articles. who cares?



Bro, Anti India is OK but how a reporter can be so ill-logical and up to this extent? According to him, all Indian states are going to be broken into pieces tomorrow.


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## A.Muqeet khan

brahmastra said:


> one more fake news by MarktheTruth.



these fake news are coming with quite a high frequency odd isnt it

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## true_indian

Can somebody explain Tamil movement in India. This is the first time I am hearing about it. Did something happen in last 5 years while I was away? Does Tamilnadu wants separation from India?


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## Coltsfan

true_indian said:


> Can somebody explain Tamil movement in India. This is the first time I am hearing about it. Did something happen in last 5 years while I was away? Does Tamilnadu wants separation from India?



What else do you expect from people who can't see beyond what is happening in Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir

Our Pakistani friends are severely misinformed.


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## bandit

true_indian said:


> Can somebody explain Tamil movement in India. This is the first time I am hearing about it. Did something happen in last 5 years while I was away? Does Tamilnadu wants separation from India?



India is big country, for people not used to it, they make mistakes mixing up names of places.


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## Pride

true_indian said:


> Can somebody explain Tamil movement in India. This is the first time I am hearing about it. Did something happen in last 5 years while I was away? Does Tamilnadu wants separation from India?



According to this and other like him reporter, TN wants to separate from India and want Rajinikant to become country's PM. New TN state will involve Srilanka and Malayasia as well. Makes sense?.. NO?? same is with article.. so just chillax

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## IndianArmy

true_indian said:


> Can somebody explain Tamil movement in India. This is the first time I am hearing about it. Did something happen in last 5 years while I was away? Does Tamilnadu wants separation from India?



Well It wanted when India sent Peace keeping force to destroy LTTE, Tamilnadu was Against Indian Govt helping Sri lankan Military destroy the LTTE.... and Hence Tamilnadu wanted separation, and that was In Late 1987..... Now the Ex chief Minister of Tamilnadu is trying for the Prime ministers post..lol.... Now tamilnadu is one among the global IT Hubs


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## Jade

Asim Aquil said:


> *Bhooka nanga Hindustan; Jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Starving and tattered India we reject; Pakistan - land of our dreams - we embrace.)*
> 
> DAWN.COM | Columnists | Kashmir?s struggle is just one of many fighting Indian injustices
> 
> 
> 
> Of course the article deals with all separatist movements within India. The problem is simple to show unification of separatist movements of India would only harden India's position to let go of Kashmir. India will undoubtedly see the Kashmir movement has the disintegration of 30-40% of the the nation. Moreover, the cohesive planning that the Kashmiris have done (political parties, international relations, armed power, street power, rich culture), lacks from lets say Maoist movement that seems more like a tribal movement, or the Tamil movement, which is ever ready to bomb civilians to make their point.
> 
> I think what the Kashmiris are doing is the best they can out of a horrible situation imposed upon them by India. The fact that Indian Muslims are still ready to appease and fit in with their Hindu fellow citizens really does land them in no man's land. Never accepted by Hindus, yet forced to reject their Muslim causes world over.
> 
> It is true that they have to face the brunt of the Hindu violent groups if they fail to do so, so this pretend exercise is something that may also be necessary, but no rights are ever won without a struggle and true secularism will never be in place in India till the culture of appeasement is dropped.



You don't have any idea on what you are talking about. I know that most Pakistanis on this forum harbor the idea of disintegration of India since India helped form Bangladeshand all the tirade of Kashmir or UN resolution is more out of revenge than out of genuine concern for Kashmiries. 

Anyway, if you go by the posts posted by Indian on this forum, you should have got that idea of India is much stronger than any other affiliations of the poster be its his/her religion, caste, ethnicity, state or even family.

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## Coltsfan

I have a sneaking suspicion that most of the posts after # 5 are gonna be deleted for trolling........ including this one

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## duhastmish

*there are way more Muslim dying in Muslim countries than - non Muslim countries. * ( un natural cause of death )

i say give these meaningless creatures a kick on their butt and tell them to get the hell out of this country. 

these people are blinded by ignorance. 

but i hope there someday will come : wind of change


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## Coltsfan

A.Muqeet khan said:


> these fake news are coming with quite a high frequency odd isnt it



well if it is fake news, doesn't take too much effort to increase the frequency, now does it?

keep it coming


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## genmirajborgza786

Asim Aquil said:


> The massacres of Muslims?
> 
> The continuous threats by government officials to send them to Pakistan?
> 
> The state cajoling the perpetrators of the babri mosque demolition?
> 
> *Ghulami main khush hain, abhi doosron ki
> Ke rehtay hain jannat main, woh ahmakon ki"*







Sir kindly can you please remove my thanks coz i thought i clicked the quote button

as for me my country since i live in canada a seculer nation no doubt same i saw in india

i will any day choose to be in ghulami then to be part of something i feel is wrong even if it happens to be another muslim majority country

& as i respect the pakistanis for their choice it would be only fair enough if i demand the same for me and all my fellow muslims who happens to live in a majority of non muslim seculer countries be it the U.S. U.K,Canada, Autralia,New zeland,Russia,South korea ,France,Germeny or India

i respect mr.allama iqbal but sorry i dont agree with him . 
this song or poem has nothing to do with me or those muslims living in non muslim majority countries

thanks

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## Paan Singh

*Kashmiri separatist are exposed*.one of the hurriyat leader son study in UK,another one's son study in delhi university,and these morons are using the youth to throw stones.


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## Donatello

brahmastra said:


> low life Jawed Naqvi is known for his anti-India articles. who cares?





It's not anti India. It's what is happening as of now in Kashmir. Go read news.


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## Areesh

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> *Pls spare us this well rehearsed rhetoric, conditions of Indian Muslims is hardly any worse than that of Pakistani Muslims.
> *
> Every day muslims dying in Pakistan, some are killing each other, others are being killed by govt forces.
> 
> labeling of Muslims as Kafirs or non Muslims is not a phenomenon, which is not unheard off in Pakistan.
> 
> and *if you want proof of the above then compare the number of Muslims, who died (un-natural violent death) in India and Pakistan in last week or month or year.*



Yeah of course if you stop exporting terror to Pakistan than definitely conditions of Muslims in Pakistan would improve considerably. Indian mulims would have to live in ghettos though. You guys go to any extent to defend your occupation of IOK.


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## Areesh

genmirajborgza786 said:


> [
> 
> kindly can you please remove my thanks coz i thought i clicked the quote button
> 
> thanks



Why are you asking him to remove your thanks. Can't you do it yourself.


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## Paan Singh

penumbra said:


> It's not anti India. It's what is happening as of now in Kashmir. Go read news.



u also take note on the tamils,naxals.don't u know wat he was saying??just go through the article.

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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Areesh said:


> Yeah of course if you stop exporting terror to Pakistan than definitely conditions of Muslims in Pakistan would improve considerably. Indian mulims would have to live in ghettos though. You guys go to any extent to defend your occupation of IOK.



*Stop living in an alternate reality* and you will start finding solutions to your problems or you can continue like this..we couldn't care less!!

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## Pride

Areesh said:


> Yeah of course if you *stop exporting terror to Pakistan *than definitely conditions of Muslims in Pakistan would improve considerably. Indian mulims would have to live in ghettos though. You guys go to any extent to defend your occupation of IOK.



You mean floods created by India and US? or something whose proof we are waiting for years. You need not to comment on Indian Muslims as they are my friends and brothers, Even if we fight one day we get along very next day as old friend. We dont kill them imposing some "Blasphemy Law" like you do to your minority.

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## lionheart1

in the effort to disintegrate India now pakistan itself in the situation of disintegration, no money, no food grain , leaving in conspiracy theories, corruption, terrorism, infighting between shias and sunnis ,

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## Bang Galore

Asim Aquil said:


> .............but no rights are ever won without a struggle and true secularism will never be in place in India *till the culture of appeasement is dropped*.



Seems suspiciously like the slogan of the Shiv Sena & the BJP



Asim Aquil said:


> The massacres of Muslims?



For which you have to go back nearly a decade as opposed to it being an everyday occurence in Pakistan.



> The continuous threats by government officials to send them to Pakistan?



Loads of bull. Name the official. Not interested in the author proclaiming that an unnamed official had supposedly said it.
See that you have two standards of evidence; One for Pakistan where no amount of evidence is enough and another for India where rumour & innuendo constitute more than sufficient evidence.



> The state cajoling the perpetrators of the babri mosque demolition?



The same state which is subsidising Haj & allowing separate Muslim Civil laws. Hardly the work of a state out to get the minorities. On Babri Majid issue the court judgement has been written & sealed & will be read out on Sep 24th.

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## Coltsfan

> *"Ghulami main khush hain, abhi doosron ki
> Ke rehtay hain jannat main, woh ahmakon ki"*.



To all Pakistani friends who think they are living in a paradise for Muslims, here's a shair by an Indian Muslim you might have heard of.

*"Humko maalom hai jannat ki haqeekat lekin,
dil ko khush rakhne ko Ghalib, yeh khayal achha hai"*

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## Areesh

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> *Stop living in an alternate reality* and you will start finding solutions to your problems or you can continue like this..we couldn't care less!!



You shouldn't care because you are doing your job to export terror to your neighbors
. 


Pride said:


> You mean floods created by India and US? or something whose proof we are waiting for years. You need not to comment on Indian Muslims as they are my friends and brothers, Even if we fight one day we get along very next day as old friend. We dont kill them imposing some "Blasphemy Law" like you do to your minority.



Does terror means floods in your dictionary?


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## Awesome

fateh71 said:


> Such rhetoric is useful for you to justify the failed state of Pakistan in comparison to the state of Muslims in India. Thats all.


It also hurts when you get killed. I need no justification for Pakistan - my living breathing life is testament to it.

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## LadyGaga

Maybe after the recent floods in pakistan, Kashmiris should re-think their view about India.There were floods in leh too,but India handled the situation efficiently and quickly.


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## Tuahaa

Indian Muslim friends tell me otherwise from the apparent "peace and prosperity that Indian muslims live through"

Kashmir just doesn't want to be with India. This isn't a debate about other things...


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## Tuahaa

How come this always comes and people call it 'fake news'? Come on people, it's reality. No need to deny it!


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## Pride

Areesh said:


> You shouldn't care because you are doing your job to export terror to your neighbors
> .
> 
> 
> *Does terror means floods in your dictionary?*



Nopes, This is your fellow who comes up with such conspiracy theories. Do you want me to give link or you can search in PDF??

Anyways waiting for answers of other part. Including attacks on Ahmadis and Shias as you were ranting about Indian minorities.


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## Coltsfan

Asim Aquil said:


> It also hurts when you get killed. I need no justification for Pakistan - my living breathing life is testament to it.



Then 150 + million Muslims in India are living breathing testament to the secular nature of India.

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## lionheart1

Areesh said:


> Yeah of course if you stop exporting terror to Pakistan than definitely conditions of Muslims in Pakistan would improve considerably. Indian mulims would have to live in ghettos though. You guys go to any extent to defend your occupation of IOK.



show the proof to the world what kind of terror we are exporting. indian Muslim are living happily in India, 
we got kashmir in a legal way Ranbir Singh king of kashmir in 1948 accede to India not to pakistan you are occupying illegally.
take my word single inch of kashmir will not be given to pakistan for that even if we have to fight another war we are ready

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## Paan Singh

Areesh said:


> You shouldn't care because you are doing your job to export terror to your neighbors
> .
> 
> 
> Does terror means floods in your dictionary?





> You shouldn't care because you are doing your job to export terror to your neighbors


u r getting wat u sow.these jehadis were created for soviets by your agencies.but now they are against u.havent u read the statement of ttp leader at the mumbai attacks when he was saying ttp will engage with pakistan if india attacks on pakistan.



> Does terror means floods in your dictionary?



ya many of u guys were saying abt indian water terrorism.


----------



## Tuahaa

lionheart1 said:


> show the proof to the world what kind of terror we are exporting. indian Muslim are living happily in India,
> we got kashmir in a legal way Ranbir Singh king of kashmir in 1948 accede to India not to pakistan you are occupying illegally.
> take my word single inch of kashmir will not be given to pakistan for that even if we have to fight another war we are ready



Ready to kill civilians?


----------



## Pride

Tuahaa said:


> Indian Muslim friends tell me otherwise from the apparent "peace and prosperity that Indian muslims live through"
> 
> Kashmir just doesn't want to be with India. This isn't a debate about other things...



I met Pakistanis abroad who does not want to go back to Pakistan because of Mullah ideology, great politicians and anytime army taking over to throne. Should I also make belief the same for whole 170million population of Pakistan?


----------



## Areesh

Pride said:


> Nopes, This is your fellow who comes up with such conspiracy theories. Do you want me to give link or you can search in PDF??
> 
> Anyways waiting for answers of other part. Including attacks on Ahmadis and Shias as you were ranting about Indian minorities.



No I have read those threads. It was you who brought them in between. I didn't said anything like that. 

What other parts about Shias and Ahmadis? The other parts don't mention any of these two in your post except some rant about Blasphemy Laws.


----------



## Coltsfan

Tuahaa said:


> Ready to kill civilians?



Civilians die in war sadly enough, that is the nature of war.

If Pakistani govt think that by encouraging violence in kashmir and misguiding disenchanted youths in kashmir, India is going to give up, then GOP is grossly mistaken.

The only way Pakistan can have any part of Kashmir is if it risks a full fledged war with India.

If Pakistani people want Kashmir so badly, then so be it.


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Tuahaa said:


> Ready to kill civilians?



Pakistanis should not ask this question, because you yourself committed a genocide 39 yrs ago, to suppress a freedom struggle.

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## anathema

Anathema - From Kerala and Mumbai
Bang Galore - From Bangalore (Karnataka)
Benny - From Kerala
Tshering22 - From Shillong (i believe)
Joe Shearer - From Manipur ( I believe)
Desi Jatt - From Punjab.
Duhastmish - From Kashmir
EjazR - From TamilNadu (I believe)
GowthamRaj - From TamilNadu
Karthic Sri - From TamilNadu
do_more - From Orissa
Prism - From Mohali
Colsfan - New Delhi
Indian Army - From Kerala
Pride - From UP.
Lionhear - From Karnataka ---etc, etc, etc.

and many more -- all for one Nation forever !

Does this look like *National Disintegration *to anyone ?

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## genmirajborgza786

Areesh said:


> Why are you asking him to remove your thanks. Can't you do it yourself.



honestly i am not seeing the removethanks button option from a few days maybe tech problem or coz i use Vista premium


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## Areesh

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> Pakistanis should not ask this question, because you yourself committed a genocide 39 yrs ago, to suppress a freedom struggle.



Now that was some hilarious post.


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## do_more

anathema said:


> Anathema - From Kerala and Mumbai
> Bang Galore - From Bangalore (Karnataka)
> Benny - From Kerala
> Tshering22 - From Shillong (i believe)
> Joe Shearer - From Manipur ( I believe)
> Desi Jatt - From Punjab.
> Duhastmish - From Kashmir
> EjazR - From TamilNadu (I believe)
> GowthamRaj - From TamilNadu
> Karthic Sri - From TamilNadu
> 
> and many more -- all for one Nation forever !
> 
> Does this look like *National Disintegration *to anyone ?



do_more - From Orissa.


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## lionheart1

Tuahaa said:


> Ready to kill civilians?



ready to kill terrorist , eager to destroy evil and a evil nation, what about Baluchistan i think they dont look like civilians to your eye


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## Pride

Areesh said:


> No I have read those threads. It was you who brought them in between. I didn't said anything like that.
> 
> What other parts about Shias and Ahmadis? The other parts don't mention any of these two in your post except some rant about Blasphemy Laws.



No probs.. I understand.. blaming others is so easy just say Indian Muslims are suppressed and  but when it comes to justify action taken against your minorities (Hindu, Christian etc ) including majority (Shia Muslims and Ahmadis) then you will come up with some crooked thought.


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## lionheart1

anathema said:


> Anathema - From Kerala and Mumbai
> Bang Galore - From Bangalore (Karnataka)
> Benny - From Kerala
> Tshering22 - From Shillong (i believe)
> Joe Shearer - From Manipur ( I believe)
> Desi Jatt - From Punjab.
> Duhastmish - From Kashmir
> EjazR - From TamilNadu (I believe)
> GowthamRaj - From TamilNadu
> Karthic Sri - From TamilNadu
> do_more - From Orissa
> 
> and many more -- all for one Nation forever !
> 
> Does this look like *National Disintegration *to anyone ?



lion heart from karnataka


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## Areesh

anathema said:


> Anathema - From Kerala and Mumbai
> Bang Galore - From Bangalore (Karnataka)
> Benny - From Kerala
> Tshering22 - From Shillong (i believe)
> Joe Shearer - From Manipur ( I believe)
> Desi Jatt - From Punjab.
> Duhastmish - From Kashmir
> EjazR - From TamilNadu (I believe)
> GowthamRaj - From TamilNadu
> Karthic Sri - From TamilNadu
> do_more - From Orissa
> and many more -- all for one Nation forever !
> 
> Does this look like *National Disintegration *to anyone ?



Remove some names some are banned or suspended.


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## Paan Singh

Areesh said:


> Now that was some hilarious post.



it's right.


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## Pride

do_more said:


> do_more - From Orissa.



Pride from India then from some location of Uttar Pradesh.

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## Areesh

Pride said:


> No probs.. I understand.. blaming others is so easy just say Indian Muslims are suppressed and  but when it comes to justify action taken against your minorities (Hindu, Christian etc ) including majority (Shia Muslims and Ahmadis) then you will come up with some crooked thought.



Just like when you come with some crooked though when we say something about IOK. Like we are training and brainwashing stonepelters.


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## Coltsfan

genmirajborgza786 said:


> honestly i am not seeing the removethanks button option from a few days maybe tech problem or coz i use Vista premium



I agree...... I do not see it too.

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## Paan Singh

Pride said:


> Pride from India then from some location of Uttar Pradesh.



prism from mohali

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## IndianArmy

Indian Army------- From India.(Kerala)

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## mrwarrior006

> Anathema - From Kerala and Mumbai
> Bang Galore - From Bangalore (Karnataka)
> Benny - From Kerala
> Tshering22 - From Shillong (i believe)
> Joe Shearer - From Manipur ( I believe)
> Desi Jatt - From Punjab.
> Duhastmish - From Kashmir
> EjazR - From TamilNadu (I believe)
> GowthamRaj - From TamilNadu
> Karthic Sri - From TamilNadu
> do_more - From Orissa



and also mrwarrior006 from *TAMILNADU**(INDIA)*

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## Areesh

genmirajborgza786 said:


> honestly i am not seeing the removethanks button option from a few days maybe tech problem or coz i use Vista premium



OH ok. Than he is not going to remove your thanks. Who wants to lose the thanks for free.


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## Coltsfan

anathema said:


> Anathema - From Kerala and Mumbai
> Bang Galore - From Bangalore (Karnataka)
> Benny - From Kerala
> Tshering22 - From Shillong (i believe)
> Joe Shearer - From Manipur ( I believe)
> Desi Jatt - From Punjab.
> Duhastmish - From Kashmir
> EjazR - From TamilNadu (I believe)
> GowthamRaj - From TamilNadu
> Karthic Sri - From TamilNadu
> do_more - From Orissa
> 
> and many more -- all for one Nation forever !
> 
> Does this look like *National Disintegration *to anyone ?



*<---------- new delhi*

Anathema, you might have to edit your list Thanks for the effort in advance


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## mrwarrior006

last time i checked in* chennai (TAMILNADU)*on AUGUST 15 there was great celebration for it

flags being hoisted,sweets(chocolates) distributed,national anthem sung on various streets all schools,colleges,holidyas for all 

*but sadly didn see any separatist movement *
*did i miss something on tat day*

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## Pride

Areesh said:


> Just like when you come with some crooked though when we say something about IOK. Like we are training and brainwashing stonepelters.



If you want to discuss Kashmir then discuss that only no need to bring Indian Muslims/ Naxals/ other state movement as this idiot reporter did. Some times things boomrangs to hit you hard. Lets stick to Kashmir.


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## Areesh

Pride said:


> If you want to discuss Kashmir then discuss that only no need to bring Indian Muslims/ Naxals/ other state movement as this idiot reporter did. Some times things boomrangs to hit you hard. Lets stick to Kashmir.



That's why you shouldn't bring floods when we talk about terror export.

Anyways you are right.


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## duhastmish

i seen it all - kashmir is under problem because of these crpf monkies . 

but without indian support the state will just get lost in abyss. these pro paksitan leader and crowd is non existent. yes many people want to be left alone.

but most just want to have a good life in kashmir - be it with india or pakestan or Azerbaijan for god sake. *all the kashmir need is little support from indian people. and indian media . want no violation of human rights and more opportunity to survive and be wealthy. just take off these monkey crpf and these idiot politicians ( including - indian state and sepratist) kashmir doesnt have a good leader thats the biggest problem *

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## Pride

duhastmish said:


> i seen it all - kashmir is under problem because of these crpf monkies .
> 
> but without indian support the state will just get lost in abyss. these pro paksitan leader and crowd is non existent. yes many people want to be left alone.
> 
> but most just want to have a good life in kashmir - be it with india or pakestan or Azerbaijan for god sake. *all the kashmir need is little support from indian people. and indian media . want no violation of human rights and more opportunity to survive and be wealthy. just take off these monkey crpf and these idiot politicians ( including - indian state and sepratist) kashmir doesnt have a good leader thats the biggest problem *



I want to quote a dialogue here from movie Lamhaa"Kashmir is a company, Nobody wants to solve it as it will stop profit for stake holders". (Not exact wordings)

Pakistan asks money from other islamic countries to pay some money to Lashkar and Geelani groups and rest is in their pocket. Indian politician needs more money for issue resolution whose major part is gone in leader's pockets. JK police has some bought from Pak and rest from India hence no proper law and regualtion. Sufferer are Kashmiri and Indian army. Fools are we internet warriors to discuss it again and again.


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## Masterchief

Asim Aquil said:


> The massacres of Muslims?
> 
> The continuous threats by government officials to send them to Pakistan?
> 
> The state cajoling the perpetrators of the babri mosque demolition?
> 
> "Ghulami main khush hain, abhi doosron ki
> Ke rehtay hain jannat main, woh ahmakon ki".



i will not comment much but you guys seem to know half things, babri masjid verdict will be given in near time, speculations are that RSS has lost the case and their crap fanatic hindu idealogy has thrown them in a ditch, muslims and seculars have won the case i doubt your media will show that because it only shows crap about us, nothing else


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## Masterchief

anathema said:


> Anathema - From Kerala and Mumbai
> Bang Galore - From Bangalore (Karnataka)
> Benny - From Kerala
> Tshering22 - From Shillong (i believe)
> Joe Shearer - From Manipur ( I believe)
> Desi Jatt - From Punjab.
> Duhastmish - From Kashmir
> EjazR - From TamilNadu (I believe)
> GowthamRaj - From TamilNadu
> Karthic Sri - From TamilNadu
> do_more - From Orissa
> Prism - From Mohali
> Colsfan - New Delhi
> Indian Army - From Kerala
> Pride - From UP.
> Lionhear - From Karnataka ---etc, etc, etc.
> 
> and many more -- all for one Nation forever !
> 
> Does this look like *National Disintegration *to anyone ?



and i from INDIA


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## duhastmish

you forgot the water !!!!! 

the water is one big issue who ever gets kashmir gets bigger share of water. 
apart from that -kashmir is also -an issue where many wars have been fought if paksitan give it up their whole existence as - islamic coutnry will come i nto jeopardy. 

the best way is to keep killing these monkey terrorist out give power to kashmiri police ask crpf to get the hell out. provide education and better infra structure. spend proper money in kashmir. ask media to come and help kashmir. make people aware of kashmir problem .


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## SpArK

Jammu and kashmir's problem is more of an economical thing than a political one.

Jammu and Kashmir is a classic case of dependency syndrome.Its finances and in mess and it has virtually no public sector.

The per capita income in Jammu and Kahmir was Rs.21,561 in 2008-2009 compared to national average of of Rs 28,937.
The gross state domestic product however gre by 6.87 percent in 2009-2010 but its still well below national average.

Jammu and Kashmir has 23 public sector undertakings of which only 4 are making any profit.

The centre has spend over Rs, 80,000 crore on the state since 1989 with state gov. plan expenditures being 30,ooo corre and 5 PM packages promising Rs 43,350 crore. even though lots of money have been allocated most of the projects are either half way or are not completed . Including the Rs 500 crore Save Dal Lake project.

The unemployement rate is 4.21 higher than national average of 3.09.

I haven't yet come across any job assured scehemes for locals yet.

Prevention of corruption, unemployement concerns and delay in project completion are the basic factors.

The state spends around Rs22,000 core a year on importing food and provitions where as its exports have declined to Rs6000 crore a year , mostly horticulture and handicrafts.


On ground zero, we dont find any investment in infrastructure or social assets and more money doesnt mean fewer problems.

Unless and until we find a solution to these issues , there will be no progress.

Benny

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## Pride

BENNY said:


> Jammu and kashmir's problem is more of an economical thing than a political one.
> 
> Jammu and Kashmir is a classic case of dependency syndrome.Its finances and in mess and it has virtually no public sector.
> 
> The per capita income in Jammu and Kahmir was Rs.21,561 in 2008-2009 compared to national average of of Rs 28,937.
> The gross state domestic product however gre by 6.87 percent in 2009-2010 but its still well below national average.
> 
> Jammu and Kashmir has 23 public sector undertakings of which only 4 are making any profit.
> 
> The centre has spend over Rs, 80,000 crore on the state since 1989 with state gov. plan expenditures being 30,ooo corre and 5 PM packages promising Rs 43,350 crore. even though lots of money have been allocated most of the projects are either half way or are not completed . Including the Rs 500 crore Save Dal Lake project.
> 
> The unemployement rate is 4.21 higher than national average of 3.09.
> 
> I haven't yet come across any job assured scehemes for locals yet.
> 
> Prevention of corruption, unemployement concerns and delay in project completion are the basic factors.
> 
> The state spends around Rs22,000 core a year on importing food and provitions where as its exports have declined to Rs6000 crore a year , mostly horticulture and handicrafts.
> 
> 
> On ground zero, we dont find any investment in infrastructure or social assets and more money doesnt mean fewer problems.
> 
> Unless and until we find a solution to these issues , there will be no progress.
> 
> Benny



Thanks Benny for sharing this.. I have also read many economist column which does not talk about J&K economy only but also how economy of India-Pakistan and their armies heavily dependent on Kashmir possession process. This is hurting socio-politically but serving many people's purpose of grabbing money.

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## su-47

anathema said:


> Anathema - From Kerala and Mumbai
> Bang Galore - From Bangalore (Karnataka)
> Benny - From Kerala
> Tshering22 - From Shillong (i believe)
> Joe Shearer - From Manipur ( I believe)
> Desi Jatt - From Punjab.
> Duhastmish - From Kashmir
> EjazR - From TamilNadu (I believe)
> GowthamRaj - From TamilNadu
> Karthic Sri - From TamilNadu
> do_more - From Orissa
> Prism - From Mohali
> Colsfan - New Delhi
> Indian Army - From Kerala
> Pride - From UP.
> Lionhear - From Karnataka ---etc, etc, etc.
> 
> and many more -- all for one Nation forever !
> 
> Does this look like *National Disintegration *to anyone ?



SU-47... from Kerala, reporting for duty for India 




Asim Aquil said:


> The massacres of Muslims?



A massacre that happened 8 years ago, and killed more than a thousand. And all of India expressed their regret over it. You won't find better critics for Gujarat massacres than Indians themselves. 

Compare that with Pakistan, where muslims are butchered even in their worshipping places or during religious marches. Where religious extremists go on killing sprees. 

And lets not even go into the case of East Pakistan. Even the most conservative estimates put the causalities at hundreds of thousands. Its like you dropped a bloody nuke there. 

Face it, the state of Pakistan and elements within Pakistan has butchered more Muslims and continue to do so than India ever has. So lets cut the bull crap. There is more chance for a Muslim to die in Pakistan than in India. 

Or when Muslims murder Muslims, is it not counted according to you? 



Asim Aquil said:


> The continuous threats by government officials to send them to Pakistan?



Haha which government official has said this. If its some anonymous official, there is a reason he is anonymous. No one gives a f**k



Asim Aquil said:


> The state cajoling the perpetrators of the babri mosque demolition?



Yeah and how often does it affect the average Muslim on a daily basis. Besides, that case is ongoing. Its not like the state ignored it.



Asim Aquil said:


> "Ghulami main khush hain, abhi doosron ki
> Ke rehtay hain jannat main, woh ahmakon ki".



Can't understand Hindi/Urdu. If someone can kindly translate it, i can give a reply.

If India was such a terrible place for Muslims to live, you would see more of them wanting to come to Pakistan. But they don't because they live in the largest secular democracy, and aside from a few black marks (Babri Masjid, Gujarat massacres) they are happy here. And now they are in one of the fastest growing economies in the world, that is offering them prospect of increased economic and social well-being.

Contrast that to Pakistan. What do they get there? Lets not go too much into the details. Dragging a country in dirt is not something that appeals to me.

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## Indian Gurkha

anathema said:


> Anathema - From Kerala and Mumbai
> Bang Galore - From Bangalore (Karnataka)
> Benny - From Kerala
> Tshering22 - From Shillong (i believe)
> Joe Shearer - From Manipur ( I believe)
> Desi Jatt - From Punjab.
> Duhastmish - From Kashmir
> EjazR - From TamilNadu (I believe)
> GowthamRaj - From TamilNadu
> Karthic Sri - From TamilNadu
> do_more - From Orissa
> Prism - From Mohali
> Colsfan - New Delhi
> Indian Army - From Kerala
> Pride - From UP.
> Lionhear - From Karnataka ---etc, etc, etc.
> 
> and many more -- all for one Nation forever !
> 
> Does this look like *National Disintegration *to anyone ?



where is the Assam representative??ahem.... ahem
Indian Gurkha from Assam reporting for duty for India

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## Awesome

Wth are you guys talking about? I made a case against national disintegration of India. Read Foo!

As a Pakistani, I'm not interested in it. But as far as Kashmir's independence goes, I will always fiercely voice their rights and their genuine displeasure over the tyrannical rule of India.


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## TopCat

BATMAN said:


>



Police dress up like 1930's will act like 1930's. Moreover as days goes, India is becoming more and more racist and desperate as the social segregation is widening. Few people making billions and billion are suffering from hunger. I hope one day the repressed will find a way to get rid of tyrant and we should pray for the good soul.

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## roach

anathema said:


> Anathema - From Kerala and Mumbai
> Bang Galore - From Bangalore (Karnataka)
> Benny - From Kerala
> Tshering22 - From Shillong (i believe)
> Joe Shearer - From Manipur ( I believe)
> Desi Jatt - From Punjab.
> Duhastmish - From Kashmir
> EjazR - From TamilNadu (I believe)
> GowthamRaj - From TamilNadu
> Karthic Sri - From TamilNadu
> do_more - From Orissa
> Prism - From Mohali
> Colsfan - New Delhi
> Indian Army - From Kerala
> Pride - From UP.
> Lionhear - From Karnataka ---etc, etc, etc.
> 
> and many more -- all for one Nation forever !
> 
> Does this look like *National Disintegration *to anyone ?



Not sure where I fit in. Dad Punjabi from Jammu, Mom Gujarati born in Karachi, Wife Bengali, have lived in 10 states of India coz dad was fauji.

Indian to the core, I guess.

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## notsuperstitious

iajdani said:


> Police dress up like 1930's will act like 1930's. Moreover as days goes, India is becoming more and more racist and desperate as the social segregation is widening. Few people making billions and billion are suffering from hunger. I hope one day the repressed will find a way to get rid of tyrant and we should pray for the good soul.



Lucky in Bangladesh no police high handedness happens. One day India will develope and become like Bangladesh.

I hope not.

While such acts by police are shameful to say the least and need disciplining, those fantacizing about India's doom will use this video to have some pleasure. Have it for all we care

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## Coltsfan

Asim Aquil said:


> Wth are you guys talking about? I made a case against national disintegration of India. Read Foo!
> 
> As a Pakistani, I'm not interested in it. But as far as Kashmir's independence goes, I will always fiercely voice their rights and their genuine displeasure over the tyrannical rule of India.



You should have stuck to the Kashmir issue in that case, instead of bringing up the issues of Muslims in India and how they are put in a "no man's land" as you refer to.

Your subsequent posts regarding Indian Muslims did not help your cause either.

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## Metaldew

*Pakistanis are making such hue & Cry over some Stray Cattle in Kashmir when the entire Herd is with India!!! 
Everyone knows the fate of misguided stray cattle. Need I say more.....:*


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## ek_indian

So we are bhookhe and nange.... well world says it otherwise, we are second fastest growing economy and one of major economies of the world. Our middle class is growing very fast. Poverty is there but it is also decreasing and we are moving in right direction.

As for disintegration....I believe UP is one of the poorest/backward states. Still...just say negative statements about India and you would be in serious life threatening situation.

Lastly as for the list, add ek_indian also. (From India, UP).

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## indianpatriot

such threads are the reason why PDF is so exciting! three cheers from PDF and its anti-indian stupid threads!

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## anathema

nana -- I am done editing the list -- hence used etc , etc , etc...where all the other members fit in  ...

Just wanted to make a point against these nonsense blogs !! 

As i always say -- give Kashmir another 25 years -- let the current leaders die and the current generation become older and mature -- you will find that Kashmir will be slowly amalgamated into Indian culture and society. Let Pakistanis cry all they want about abuse of Kashmir and Human rights violations -- they have been doing that for the past X number of years with no result -- first they had best friend America to bank on-- now its China -- tomorrow it will be someone else -- But Kashmir will always be Indian territory and state..and people of Kashmir - Indians.

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## kashith

anathema said:


> Anathema - From Kerala and Mumbai
> Bang Galore - From Bangalore (Karnataka)
> Benny - From Kerala
> Tshering22 - From Shillong (i believe)
> Joe Shearer - From Manipur ( I believe)
> Desi Jatt - From Punjab.
> Duhastmish - From Kashmir
> EjazR - From TamilNadu (I believe)
> GowthamRaj - From TamilNadu
> Karthic Sri - From TamilNadu
> do_more - From Orissa
> Prism - From Mohali
> Colsfan - New Delhi
> Indian Army - From Kerala
> Pride - From UP.
> Lionhear - From Karnataka ---etc, etc, etc.
> 
> and many more -- all for one Nation forever !
> 
> Does this look like *National Disintegration *to anyone ?



Kashith---U.P ka bhaiya living in Aamchi Mumbai....Hum Hindustani ...Humara mulk Hindustan..Kashmir se Kanyakumari tak..We are indians first and last..Jai Hind

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## trident2010

anathema said:


> Anathema - From Kerala and Mumbai
> Bang Galore - From Bangalore (Karnataka)
> Benny - From Kerala
> Tshering22 - From Shillong (i believe)
> Joe Shearer - From Manipur ( I believe)
> Desi Jatt - From Punjab.
> Duhastmish - From Kashmir
> EjazR - From TamilNadu (I believe)
> GowthamRaj - From TamilNadu
> Karthic Sri - From TamilNadu
> do_more - From Orissa
> Prism - From Mohali
> Colsfan - New Delhi
> Indian Army - From Kerala
> Pride - From UP.
> Lionhear - From Karnataka ---etc, etc, etc.
> 
> and many more -- all for one Nation forever !
> 
> Does this look like *National Disintegration *to anyone ?




trident2010 ----> M.P.

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## SpArK

Isn't it better to start a separate thread for state-wise introduction rather than doing it in a thread which is unrelated???

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## riju78

kashith said:


> Kashith---U.P ka bhaiya living in Aamchi Mumbai....Hum Hindustani ...Humara mulk Hindustan..Kashmir se Kanyakumari tak..



riju hindustani from keralam

JAI HIND

---------- Post added at 09:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 AM ----------




BENNY said:


> Isn't it better to start a separate thread for state-wise introduction rather than doing it in a thread which is unrelated???



please start one benny...

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## prototype

i am actually astonished,Pakistan is totally crumbled by the devastating floods,their economy is in shatters,insurgency at its best,cities burning,people dying,Politician's around the world had made Pakistan a joke,still their only concern is "how can we get kashmir"

This remembers me the *Nero Claudius Caesar* of Rome

*The emperor who "fiddled while Rome burned"*

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## JanjaWeed

Asim Aquil said:


> I hear a lot about this from our friends across the border, not just on this forum, even from the eminent personalities in pakistani TV debate. Now i have never heard about anything called Tamil movement in my entire life. I thought tamil nadu is one of the peaceful states of india. Please enlighten me with the name of atleast one tamil movement in india!!

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## TaimiKhan

Asim Aquil said:


> Wth are you guys talking about? I made a case against national disintegration of India. Read Foo!
> 
> As a Pakistani, I'm not interested in it. But as far as Kashmir's independence goes, I will always fiercely voice their rights and their genuine displeasure over the tyrannical rule of India.



Well its the usual derailment technique, works every time for them.


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## rafay321

gubbi said:


> *Exactly. A sane majority gives its representatives enough power to suppress a violent, directionless, self-destructive, brainwashed, misguided minority!
> *



Who are you to decide that they are violent, directionless, self-destructive and brainwashed? Just because they don't want to be with you? Their only problem is that they are minority and the majority votes to keep them oppress with their 99&#37; hindu dominated army. You have judged yourselves aka Hindu majority to be the SANE ones and the minority to be insane. 

Shame shame. 

How would you feel if you want to take a path or make a decision regarding yourself and someone turns up and say no this is wrong for you i wont let you do it even if i have to kill you for that. you are violent, self destructive, brainwashed because YOU DON'T LISTEN TO ME! 

Your argument crosses every possible limit of lameness. It is because of people like you, who transform oppressed people into terrorists and then spend billions to stop "terrorists" attacks. Why not just live and let them live? The inequality and injustice is the mother of all terrorism. When these oppressed give up hope and have nothing to loose they become self destructive and kill you who oppress them. 

Thank god you were not successful in dictating US what is best for US in 1947. May be i would have died somewhere in Mumbai or Gujarat if we listened to the sane Hindus and Gandhi. 

Talk about yourself and your sanity. You have no right to judge others as destructive, insane and directionless. Let them speak for themselves. Aren't they already?


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## Pride

TaimiKhan said:


> Well its the usual derailment technique, works every time for them.



Taimi, Don't you think the thread starter need to use rational and logical approach to post some sensible article? 

Article has nothing substantial and then "Your" posters jumping for discussion about Indian Muslims and national disintegration of India and here you are blaming us again for derailment.

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## prototype

^^after illogical postings and rantings,blaming us everytime,work for them everytime

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## Paan Singh

prototype said:


> ^^after illogical postings and rantings,blaming us everytime,work for them everytime



ya firstly they include tamilnadu etc and blame us for derailment.thread starter is misleading.if he gets answered properly then derailment!!!!!!!!!

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## riju78

rafay321 said:


> Who are you to decide that they are violent, directionless, self-destructive and brainwashed? Just because they don't want to be with you? Their only problem is that they are minority and the majority votes to keep them oppress with their 99% hindu dominated army. You have judged yourselves aka Hindu majority to be the SANE ones and the minority to be insane.
> 
> Shame shame.
> 
> How would you feel if you want to take a path or make a decision regarding yourself and someone turns up and say no this is wrong for you i wont let you do it even if i have to kill you for that. you are violent, self destructive, brainwashed because YOU DON'T LISTEN TO ME!
> 
> Your argument crosses every possible limit of lameness. It is because of people like you, who transform oppressed people into terrorists and then spend billions to stop "terrorists" attacks. Why not just live and let them live? The inequality and injustice is the mother of all terrorism. When these oppressed give up hope and have nothing to loose they become self destructive and kill you who oppress them.
> 
> Thank god you were not successful in dictating US what is best for US in 1947. May be i would have died somewhere in Mumbai or Gujarat if we listened to the sane Hindus and Gandhi.
> 
> Talk about yourself and your sanity. You have no right to judge others as destructive, insane and directionless. Let them speak for themselves. Aren't they already?




u talk abt HINDU majority!
but the prime minister is sikh, J&K CM is muslim and defence minister of india is Christian... these are the people who makes the decisions my friend...


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## IndianArmy

riju78 said:


> u talk abt HINDU majority!
> but the prime minister is sikh, J&K CM is muslim and defence minister of india is Christian... these are the people who makes the decisions my friend...



And where did our Beloved Vice president go who is a Muslim????


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## sms

anathema said:


> Anathema - From Kerala and Mumbai
> Bang Galore - From Bangalore (Karnataka)
> Benny - From Kerala
> Tshering22 - From Shillong (i believe)
> Joe Shearer - From Manipur ( I believe)
> Desi Jatt - From Punjab.
> Duhastmish - From Kashmir
> EjazR - From TamilNadu (I believe)
> GowthamRaj - From TamilNadu
> Karthic Sri - From TamilNadu
> do_more - From Orissa
> Prism - From Mohali
> Colsfan - New Delhi
> Indian Army - From Kerala
> Pride - From UP.
> Lionhear - From Karnataka ---etc, etc, etc.
> 
> and many more -- all for one Nation forever !
> 
> Does this look like *National Disintegration *to anyone ?



*Missed me ... sms -from Haryana*

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## riju78

IndianArmy said:


> And where did our Beloved Vice president go who is a Muslim????



ooops..forgot that.... 
but then again whats the point..
u cannnot wake someone who is pretending to sleep...


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## Awesome

Coltsfan said:


> You should have stuck to the Kashmir issue in that case, instead of bringing up the issues of Muslims in India and how they are put in a "no man's land" as you refer to.
> 
> Your subsequent posts regarding Indian Muslims did not help your cause either.


Read the article, it clearly states that while we all support the Kashmiri movement, why don't we support other movements for independence in India, like the Maoists or the Tamils, Sikhs and so on. 

MY argument was that going after all the independence movements hardens India's position since this national disintegration is a concern of India's and they will be unrelenting on Kashmir, which is an international issue, so its best we stick to Kashmir.

Of course I got a lot of opinions on the subjugation of Indian Muslims, the lack of equality, the big brother attitude, but that isn't my primary concern, nor it should be of any Pakistanis.

Kashmir is our only beef with India.

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## Awesome

India has a genocide rate of once per decade. That is quite high when this is not counting Kashmir - the perpetual ongoing, never ending murder fest India has going on over there.

The new Kashmiri slogan clearly is meant to degrade and insult India and proclaim their closeness to Pakistan. That is the value Kashmir gives you.

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## Bang Galore

rafay321 said:


> Thank god you were not successful in dictating US what is best for US in 1947.* May be i would have died somewhere in Mumbai or Gujarat if we listened to the sane Hindus and Gandhi*.


Maybe you would have, but also probable that you might have ended up a very rich man aka Premji. Who knows? Anyways, we are glad that you have left behind any connection to India & moved on.

Now if only you could also let go of the baggage that you seem to carry..... 

It gets a little boring after some time to hear how lucky you were to get away from India & not get caught up in the 2001 Gujrat riots or the even earlier 1992 Bombay riots especially when you could get yourself killed in a 100 different incidents every week in very different cities of Pakistan. Don't you think that it is quite possible that some of those who are killed in such daily occurrences might have had a different view (if they had the chance to revisit your contention after the event) on whether they were lucky or unlucky to have ended up in the supposedly safer country ofPakistan.

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## Paan Singh

Asim Aquil said:


> India has a genocide rate of once per decade. That is quite high when this is not counting Kashmir - the perpetual ongoing, never ending murder fest India has going on over there.
> 
> The new Kashmiri slogan clearly is meant to degrade and insult India and proclaim their closeness to Pakistan. That is the value Kashmir gives you.



those separatist who loves to be in denial can live with this slogan.no body is asking and listening them.same implements to u.u can keep your closeness as india is not harmed.and who cares the value which those separatist can give to the nation or loving pakistan whose childrens study in the delhi university,britain, etc and those morons encourage others children or youth to leave school and start stone throwing.but nothing gonna change as govt knows their credebility.

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## Pride

Asim Aquil said:


> India has a genocide rate of once per decade. That is quite high when this is not counting Kashmir - the perpetual ongoing, never ending murder fest India has going on over there.


Quite amusing... Could you please come up with genocide rate comparison of India and Pakistan including '71 as well. I know whole addition of these genocide will be lesser than '71 still we may check.


> The new Kashmiri slogan clearly is meant to degrade and insult India and proclaim their closeness to Pakistan. That is the value Kashmir gives you.



This is your POV.. our POV is this slogan clearly shows who has given money to whom? Other wise a simple kid knows who is in better economical situation India or Pakistan?

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## notsuperstitious

Asim Aquil said:


> It also hurts when you get killed. I need no justification for Pakistan - my living breathing life is testament to it.



Silly at best, and the living breathing life of 200 million indian minorities including 160 million muslims in a slap on that so called testament.

Not to mention the daily masscare of muslims in pakistan, i think it does not hurt when you die in land of the pure 



Asim Aquil said:


> India has a genocide rate of once per decade. That is quite high when this is not counting Kashmir - the perpetual ongoing, never ending murder fest India has going on over there.
> 
> The new Kashmiri slogan clearly is meant to degrade and insult India and proclaim their closeness to Pakistan. That is the value Kashmir gives you.



Our so called genocides are a storm in a tea cup compared to what goes on in pakistan! So you can keep calling it genocide etc, as in pakistan's parallel universe it surely is, but the rest of the world where WE live, we only laugh!

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## TextMiner

Asim Aquil said:


> *India has a genocide rate of once per decade. That is quite high when this is not counting Kashmir - the perpetual ongoing, never ending murder fest India has going on over there.*


Oh please, do not confuse yourself about Genocides and Pogroms (also saccharined as Riots). What happened with Gujarat in 2002 was a state-sponsored pogrom i.e. targeting specific groups (in this case Muslims) in a specific region (out of the multitudes of places in India) for a specific reason (Godhra carnage). Read *this *for your further knowledge about the distinction.


> In my work on India, I have argued that what are labeled Hindu-Muslim riots have, more often than not, been turned into pogroms and massacres of Muslims, in which few Hindus are killed. In fact, in sites of endemic rioting, there exist what I have called institutionalised riot systems,? in which the organisations of militant Hindu nationalism are deeply implicated. *I believe that such riot systems exist and have existed in many other places in the world, at least for the past two centuries, including in Russia, other parts of Europe, and the United States.* In such sites, persons can be identified, who play specific roles in the preparation, enactment, and explanation of riots after the fact. Especially important are what I call the "fire tenders," who keep inter-group tensions alive through various inflammatory and inciting acts; "conversion specialists," who lead and address mobs of potential rioters and give a signal to indicate if and when violence should commence; criminals and the poorest elements in society, recruited and rewarded for enacting the violence; and politicians and the vernacular media who, during the violence, and in its aftermath, draw attention away from the perpetrators of the violence by attributing it to the actions of an inflamed mass public.



What happened in East Pakistan in 1971 was a Genocide.


> *It is really a struggle for territory, for the right to make a claim of utmost suffering and victimhood for a people, or to extend the claim to encompass a wider range of sufferers. It is to that extent a political rather than a scientific struggle - for attention to one's cause - in which historians themselves become enmeshed.*
> 
> The narrow focus on exposing to view particular sites of genocide previously neglected has merit and is necessary, but it often gives the appearance more of a prosecutor's amassing of evidence for a jury, in this case of world opinion.



And no wonder we see Riots, even ethnic Cleansing amongst Muslims *day-in and day-out* in Pakistan. Why ? One of the sarcastic reasons is this in which Don Morris writes at Docs Talk (thanks to Janet Levy)


> When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions (Paris  car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats (Amsterdam  Mohammed cartoons).
> 
> *India  Muslim 13.4%*
> 
> After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide:
> 
> *Bangladesh  Muslim 83%
> Pakistan  Muslim 97%
> *


The main reason is the intolerance and the fundamentalist mindset of a *MUSLIM STATE* (Note the keywords here). The day u separate out Religion from State is the day we will see the end of the daily Diwalis going on in the Land of the Pure.

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## Jackdaws

Asim Aquil said:


> India has a genocide rate of once per decade. That is quite high when this is not counting Kashmir - the perpetual ongoing, never ending murder fest India has going on over there.
> 
> The new Kashmiri slogan clearly is meant to degrade and insult India and proclaim their closeness to Pakistan. That is the value Kashmir gives you.



Yawn - Pakistan routinely kills more Muslims than India does. Pakistan has a genocide rate of well - I can't say - because it just doesn't stop.

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## sab

anathema said:


> Anathema - From Kerala and Mumbai
> Bang Galore - From Bangalore (Karnataka)
> Benny - From Kerala
> Tshering22 - From Shillong (i believe)
> Joe Shearer - From Manipur ( I believe)
> Desi Jatt - From Punjab.
> Duhastmish - From Kashmir
> EjazR - From TamilNadu (I believe)
> GowthamRaj - From TamilNadu
> Karthic Sri - From TamilNadu
> do_more - From Orissa
> Prism - From Mohali
> Colsfan - New Delhi
> Indian Army - From Kerala
> Pride - From UP.
> Lionhear - From Karnataka ---etc, etc, etc.
> 
> and many more -- all for one Nation forever !
> 
> Does this look like *National Disintegration *to anyone ?


Sabir from Kolkata......but why is the gathering for???

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## Asm

Asim Aquil said:


> *Bhooka nanga Hindustan; Jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Starving and tattered India we reject; Pakistan - land of our dreams - we embrace.)*



*Ohh man why you want to make fun of your self If Hindustan is bhooka Nanga then hard to imagine what is Pakistan right now ...


Bhookha Nanag Hindustan dnt need Aid to feed their people but Pakistan does
Bhooke Nange Hindustani dnt feel embarrassment because of their Nationality but Pakistani does*


Awesome Article keep going

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## sachair27

rafay321 said:


> Crazy *** Indians want to oppress people with force. Welcome to the world's largest democracy.



talk about your government....importing chinese army personnels to quiet'n the voices of freedom in gilgit and baltistan...


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## civfanatic

StreetHawk said:


> I hear a lot about this from our friends across the border, not just on this forum, even from the eminent personalities in pakistani TV debate. Now i have never heard about anything called Tamil movement in my entire life. I thought tamil nadu is one of the peaceful states of india. Please enlighten me with the name of atleast one tamil movement in india!!



It might have been better if you read a lil bit of Indian history first .Tamil Nadu had a very significant sepratist movement in 50s and early 60s . The DMK was strongly anti Brahman ,anti north and anti Aryan .They viewed southern brahminsand north Indians as aryans and south Indians as dravidians . After Independence They increasingly used language instead of race as seccesionist planck. Infact current patriach of DMK (Karunanidhi ) was also associated with this movement .However After compulsory introduction of hindi as national language was stopped the sepratism began to wane ...some other factors like electoral success and 16th constitutional ammendment was also responsible . 
The sepratism might have died down but that does not mean that there was no sepratism but I was amazed that in 7 pages none of Indian members even hinted about this . I can only draw two conclusions from this either indian members are woefully ignorant of thier history or they want to gloss over some aspects of that history .


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## Pride

civfanatic said:


> It might have been better if you read a lil bit of Indian history first .Tamil Nadu had a very significant sepratist movement in 50s and early 60s . The DMK was strongly anti Brahman ,anti north and anti Aryan .They viewed southern brahminsand north Indians as aryans and south Indians as dravidians . After Independence They increasingly used language instead of race as seccesionist planck. Infact current patriach of DMK (Karunanidhi ) was also associated with this movement .However After compulsory introduction of hindi as national language was stopped the sepratism began to wane ...some other factors like electoral success and 16th constitutional ammendment was also responsible .
> The sepratism might have died down but that does not mean that there was no sepratism but I was amazed that in 7 pages none of Indian members even hinted about this . I can only draw two conclusions from this either indian members are woefully ignorant of thier history or they want to gloss over some aspects of that history .



Do you understand difference between "Protest" and " Fight for Independance"? TN was never ever asked for any kind of separate country what so ever stance of DMK was. Could you please show us any official documents which shows a separate nation's demand?

Tha language divide was a nationwide protest against Hindi as national language and people from non-Hindi speaking states were afraid that they wont be able to make to Public sector jobs due to Hindi. The major problem was again not Hindi but the way Nehru and his associate was trying to bring Hindi to the nation was wrong. It was like imposing. Its profit is taken by Political leaders as well but nobody come up with separate nation.

Just to satsify your ego, TN was only once put into Tamil Ealem due to stand of Mr Rajiv Gandhi's stand for IPKF but even then it was from LTTE and not from TN.

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## sachair27

rafay321 said:


> Who are you to decide that they are violent, directionless, self-destructive and brainwashed? Just because they don't want to be with you? Their only problem is that they are minority and the majority votes to keep them oppress with their 99% hindu dominated army. You have judged yourselves aka Hindu majority to be the SANE ones and the minority to be insane.
> 
> Shame shame.
> 
> How would you feel if you want to take a path or make a decision regarding yourself and someone turns up and say no this is wrong for you i wont let you do it even if i have to kill you for that. you are violent, self destructive, brainwashed because YOU DON'T LISTEN TO ME!
> 
> Your argument crosses every possible limit of lameness. It is because of people like you, who transform oppressed people into terrorists and then spend billions to stop "terrorists" attacks. Why not just live and let them live? The inequality and injustice is the mother of all terrorism. When these oppressed give up hope and have nothing to loose they become self destructive and kill you who oppress them.
> 
> Thank god you were not successful in dictating US what is best for US in 1947. May be i would have died somewhere in Mumbai or Gujarat if we listened to the sane Hindus and Gandhi.
> 
> Talk about yourself and your sanity. You have no right to judge others as destructive, insane and directionless. Let them speak for themselves. Aren't they already?[/QU
> 
> quite strange i'll have to agree with you partly though...these people are not violent...but misguided and brainwashed they are...and yes to a certain extent self-destructive as well...the point is that they want freedom from india.the fact is that they don't understand they the moment they get this so called azadi they are sure to be gobbled up by sino pakistan duo....
> talking about undemocratic ways of the indians in kashmir doesnt really suite you....you first really need to talk about the undemocratic systems in so called azad kashmir....azad my foot...they dont even get to decide what they can do over there..it is all decided by a minister from pakistan...so that area is anything but azad...
> as far as indian army's religious composition is concerned it has never been a religious army...those are soldiers and not religious fanatics...n btw where did u find that 99% statistics..indian army hasnt allowed religious profiling of it personnels yet..
> believe me im equally happy that you people got away from us....otherwise you could have brought the same ruin to us as u people have brought to urselves...as far as mumbai is concerned the man who started it all is sitting pretty in pakistan enjoying immunity by ur government...
> n dude we dont need our lessons in democracy and secularism from you coz your country is anything but those....


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## Frankenstein

Pride said:


> Who cares about few bugger's slogan? Last time Lashkar's slogan was "aayi aayi Laskhar aayi, Bharat teri maut aayi"... oops we all are dead..
> 
> Bhookha nanga Hindustaan.. *lol we are world's 2nd fastest economy and getting compared with Pakistan*. Isn't it display the brainwashed mind of youths?



we know Its a shame right, 

you are compared with us in military, you have the most poor people in the world, human rights violation in Kashmir, but eh you are the world 2nd fast economy aswel


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## lionheart1

Frankenstein said:


> we know Its a shame right,
> 
> you are compared with us in military, you have the most poor people in the world, human rights violation in Kashmir, but eh you are the world 2nd fast economy aswel



get your fact right, you dont worry about us, when your country begging for aid from donors

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## TextMiner

civfanatic said:


> It might have been better if you read a lil bit of Indian history first .Tamil Nadu had a very significant sepratist movement in 50s and early 60s . The DMK was strongly anti Brahman ,anti north and anti Aryan .They viewed southern brahmins and north Indians as aryans and south Indians as dravidians . After Independence They increasingly used language instead of race as seccesionist planck. Infact current patriach of DMK (Karunanidhi ) was also associated with this movement .However After compulsory introduction of hindi as national language was stopped the sepratism began to wane ...some other factors like electoral success and 16th constitutional ammendment was also responsible.


I am very much aware of the demand for Dravidistan ; The root cause for this was the lack of equal rights amongst the lower-caste of Society which led to the fructuation of the Self-Respect movement. However, I believe that our Forefathers were extremely tolerant and also far-sighted in the sense that they saw a viable carrot to quiet down the movement ; The first is in creating the States Reorganization Act to separate Tamil Nadu linguistically from the fringe states of the Dravidistan movement. The second was in contesting the TN assembly elections which defeated the very purpose of secession from India.



> The sepratism might have died down but that does not mean that there was no sepratism but I was amazed that in 7 pages none of Indian members even hinted about this . I can only draw two conclusions from this either indian members are woefully ignorant of their history or they want to gloss over some aspects of that history .


I think you missed the real take-away from the Dravidistan movement. Which is this : Movements that are based on Religion, Caste, Language or Race rather than on equal Human rights are *ALWAYS* bound to fail. Once the Dravidistan movement was splintered from the Self-Respect movement, and once that movement was quelled by both a bigger carrot (A separate state of Tamil Nadu) and a smaller stick(Sixteenth Amendment), you have only narrow objectives for a narrow vision. Why do you think Bangladesh was formed ? It was due to the utter deprivation of Human rights and moral bankruptcy shown by Yahya Khan and his cohorts on East Pakistan.


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## humanfirst

Isnt pakistan having a bomb blast almost every week?where it's own muslim citizens especially of minority sectsare killed by fellow muslims ?170+died this WEEK alone,including todays 10. Isn't ethnic based target killing happening almost daily?even in holy month!Is violence of this intensity happening in somalia,let alone india?I'm not saying india is a super duper country,we do have bad incidents started by illiterate hindus and muslims and incidents like babri masjid..mayb once in a decade.But portraying india as starving and disintegrating while pakistan as some sort of heaven makes me rofl.

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## Pride

Frankenstein said:


> we know Its a shame right,
> 
> you are compared with us in military, you have the most poor people in the world, human rights violation in Kashmir, but eh you are the world 2nd fast economy aswel



From where you are seeing it will surely be seen as "Shame" as tag India is attached.

If somebody compare our army with Kenya.. Is that our problem? Moreover, We as Indian, compare ourselves with China not you. This is you who are obsessed with widening gap of Indian and Pakistani armed forces. Go search today's posts.

Regarding Human right violation. If killing a rioter is required for peace of others then I am ok with that. 

And Thanks for your recognition.. yes we are 2nd fastest growing economy.


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## Ganga

Asim Aquil said:


> The massacres of Muslims?
> 
> *The continuous threats by government officials to send them to Pakistan?*
> 
> The state cajoling the perpetrators of the babri mosque demolition?
> 
> "Ghulami main khush hain, abhi doosron ki
> Ke rehtay hain jannat main, woh ahmakon ki".



This is something i am hearing for the first time.

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## Frankenstein

lionheart1 said:


> get your fact right, you dont worry about us, when your country begging for aid from donors



oh you want me to get my facts right, but you are the one acting naive, *aid is not begged it is granted, it is money which is begged*, so first you need to get your English right then your facts right cuz every one gets Aid, just google Foreign Aid to India, you will know


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## civfanatic

Pride said:


> Do you understand difference between "Protest" and " Fight for Independance"? TN was never ever asked for any kind of separate country what so ever stance of DMK was. Could you please show us any official documents which shows a separate nation's demand?
> 
> Tha language divide was a nationwide protest against Hindi as national language and people from non-Hindi speaking states were afraid that they wont be able to make to Public sector jobs due to Hindi. The major problem was again not Hindi but the way Nehru and his associate was trying to bring Hindi to the nation was wrong. It was like imposing. Its profit is taken by Political leaders as well but nobody come up with separate nation.
> 
> Just to satsify your ego, TN was only once put into Tamil Ealem due to stand of Mr Rajiv Gandhi's stand for IPKF but even then it was from LTTE and not from TN.



I Hope *Bipan Chandra's India Since Independence *is good enough source ..see page 395 . For better details read *Mj Akbar's Siege Within *. Rest of your post is rhetorical flush which Indians on this forum indulge quite often .


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## footmarks

civfanatic said:


> It might have been better if you read a lil bit of Indian history first .*Tamil Nadu had a very significant sepratist movement in 50s and early 60s .*



You got it. Move to 2040 - this will read "Kashmir HAD a separatist movement in 90's & 2000's.

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## civfanatic

TextMiner said:


> I am very much aware of the demand for Dravidistan ; The root cause for this was the lack of equal rights amongst the lower-caste of Society which led to the fructuation of the Self-Respect movement. However, I believe that our Forefathers were extremely tolerant and also far-sighted in the sense that they saw a viable carrot to quiet down the movement ; The first is in creating the States Reorganization Act to separate Tamil Nadu linguistically from the fringe states of the Dravidistan movement. The second was in contesting the TN assembly elections which defeated the very purpose of secession from India.
> 
> 
> I think you missed the real take-away from the Dravidistan movement. Which is this : Movements that are based on Religion, Caste, Language or Race rather than on equal Human rights are *ALWAYS* bound to fail. Once the Dravidistan movement was splintered from the Self-Respect movement, and once that movement was quelled by both a bigger carrot (A separate state of Tamil Nadu) and a smaller stick(Sixteenth Amendment), you have only narrow objectives for a narrow vision. Why do you think Bangladesh was formed ? It was due to the utter deprivation of Human rights and moral bankruptcy shown by Yahya Khan and his cohorts on East Pakistan.



My point was not about sustainablity or sucess of sepratism .A lot of sepratist movements might fail but that hardly means that all movements will neccesarily fail . My post was in reply to a lot of posters here who mocked that there was sepratism in Tamil nadu ...Some even claimed that they have never heard about that .


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## civfanatic

footmarks said:


> You got it. Move to 2040 - this will read "Kashmir HAD a separatist movement in 90's & 2000's.



You have indulged in these kind of wet dreams for 60 years ...Time to smell coffee .


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## footmarks

civfanatic said:


> My point was not about sustainablity or sucess of sepratism .A lot of sepratist movements might fail but that hardly means that all movements will neccesarily fail . My post was in reply to a lot of posters here who mocked that there was sepratism in Tamil nadu ...*Some even claimed that they have never heard about that *.



Believe me, they are saying truth. I have never heard about it too. Why? because unlike the person in your avatar, we are YOUNG. we have grown over the shortcomings of past, and National Integration is very very strong now, stronger than ever. We as a nation has grown and we take pride in our efforts...in being Indians.


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## lionheart1

Frankenstein said:


> oh you want me to get my facts right, but you are the one acting naive, *aid is not begged it is granted, it is money which is begged*, so first you need to get your English right then your facts right cuz every one gets Aid, just google Foreign Aid to India, you will know



i never seen my pm applying for help, i never seem our fm in un for seeking aid. 
yes aid is granted but for pakistan it not true

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## Frankenstein

Pride said:


> From where you are seeing it will surely be seen as "Shame" as tag India is attached.



Trust me, wht eva you are feeling we feel worst



> If somebody compare our army with Kenya.. Is that our problem? Moreover, *We as Indian, compare ourselves with China not you*. This is you who are obsessed with widening gap of Indian and Pakistani armed forces. Go search today's posts.



Yeah right and we compare ourself with USA, geme a break



> Regarding Human right violation. *If killing a rioter is required for peace of others then I am ok with that.*



And also raping them is required you are ok with that too?? and what about killing children, 

*Oh am I forgetting smthn, what about the recent news in which kashmiri Boys were forced to walk naked by indian security forces, dont tell me you are ok with that too*



> And Thanks for your recognition.. yes we are 2nd fastest growing economy.



Oh sorry my bad, Turkey is the the 2nd Fastest growing economy in the world, better luck next time

Oh we were also considered as the world fastest growing economy once,


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## footmarks

civfanatic said:


> You have indulged in these kind of wet dreams for 60 years ...Time to smell coffee .



We HAVE Kashmir for the past 60 years..and you STILL HAVE the dreams. did you get the smell of coffee now?

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## civfanatic

footmarks said:


> Believe me, they are saying truth. I have never heard about it too. Why? because unlike the person in your avatar, we are YOUNG. we have grown over the shortcomings of past, and National Integration is very very strong now, stronger than ever. We as a nation has grown and we take pride in our efforts...in being Indians.



It is the pic of *Syed Ali Shah Geelani* and Im not that much old ..Just turned 25 this year.


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## Frankenstein

lionheart1 said:


> i never seen my pm applying for help, i never seem our fm in un for seeking aid.
> yes aid is granted *but for pakistan it not true*



Oh so now Pakistan is different??, obviously if the world have a blind eye on Pakistan where 20 million people were effected so somebody have to stood up, *even USA got aid in Hurricane Katrina,* 
Hurricane Katrina international aid response (most recent) by country

world 5th most disastrous hurricane and the aid was plenty, so cant the world give some aid to the victim of the world most devastating disaster in decades??, oh wait a sec, in the case of Pakistan we have to first show them the damage isnt it

Think like a human not an Indian for once


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## TextMiner

civfanatic said:


> My point was not about sustainablity or sucess of sepratism .A lot of sepratist movements might fail but that hardly means that all movements will neccesarily fail . My post was in reply to a lot of posters here who mocked that there was sepratism in Tamil nadu ...Some even claimed that they have never heard about that .


What you missed in the broader part of the "Penny wise ; Pound Foolish" mentality is a very important point ; The Dravidistan movement was never violent ; We never saw Violence as a theme for the protests towards Dravidistan ; This gave a moral plank for the oppressed party to demand their rights as they seemed fit. What we see in Kashmir is a wanton cruelty and downright implacable attitude of the Sunni majority in Kashmir (the main bastion of the Separatists) which leads to such a reaction by GoI.

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## Pride

civfanatic said:


> I Hope *Bipan Chandra's India Since Independence *is good enough source ..see page 395 . For better details read *Mj Akbar's Siege Within *. Rest of your post is rhetorical flush which Indians on this forum indulge quite often .



I have to read Mr Bipan Chandra's books so no discussion the same but the first impression about him is he is hardcore Marxist whose histry is always different from mainstream historians.

MJ Akabar's Sige within is chain of articles published in ToI. I tried his blog but didn't find anything. If you have link and Book you may publish here, we all can read.

Rest all may look a rhetorical flush to you but I can't help here as I can't twist the facts. Anyways I feel the same when a Pakistani comments on Kashmir.


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## your fear

somebozo said:


> Never underestimate the power of people..Russia once also saw itself invicible and took pride on the "soviet" indentity. Indian ideas of nationalism also reel from same legacy and there is a possibility no matter how little of them meeting the same fate!



the same rule apply for Pakistan we know power of people example is BD

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## civfanatic

Pride said:


> I have to read Mr Bipan Chandra's books so no discussion the same but the first impression about him is he is hardcore Marxist whose histry is always different from mainstream historians.
> 
> MJ Akabar's Sige within is chain of articles published in ToI. I tried his blog but didn't find anything. If you have link and Book you may publish here, we all can read.
> 
> Rest all may look a rhetorical flush to you but I can't help here as I can't twist the facts. Anyways I feel the same when a Pakistani comments on Kashmir.



It is a book also published much earlier perhaps you can order it from M J AKBAR : Books by M J Akbar... Bipin chandra is not hardcore Marxist infact he criticizes Indian left on thier opposition to Mr. Gandhi However he utilizes marxist method albiet with some qualifications . Morever it is not about his interpretation but facts,which im sure you can easily dig out in this age of google . BTW you are talking to a Kashmiri from Sopore living in Srinagar .


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## Moorkh

civfanatic said:


> I Hope *Bipan Chandra's India Since Independence *is good enough source ..see page 395 . For better details read *Mj Akbar's Siege Within *. Rest of your post is rhetorical flush which Indians on this forum indulge quite often .


try reading the section about DMK from the same book again then.

you will see why your argument fails.

the secessionist movement was in 1950s, a time when india was consolidating itself as a young country. secondly as is mentioned in the same section, the other southern states did not support the DMK in its secessionist demands. a primary reason why the leaders moved away from secessionist demands to becoming part of the indian political arena. 

also as has already been mentioned , it was non violent


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## Pride

Frankenstein said:


> Trust me, wht eva you are feeling we feel worst


I am not feeling anything as I dont have hate filled eyes.. You may continue..


> Yeah right and we compare ourself with USA, geme a break


Now you learned that how a stupid post is responded so lets move ahead.



> And also raping them is required you are ok with that too?? and what about killing children,



Raping is done by your so called "Freedom Fighters". I see nobody ever scolded them here. Kids were in protest for playing gilli danda? Why there parents did not stop them?

Anyways, You stop your freedom movements, we remove our army no **** and killing.



> *Oh am I forgetting smthn, what about the recent news in which kashmiri Boys were forced to walk naked by indian security forces, dont tell me you are ok with that too*



Go take a nap and then come back, you have also missed many more propaganda articles about Kashmir.



> Oh sorry my bad, Turkey is the the 2nd Fastest growing economy in the world, better luck next time


In cricket, even a debut player hits century his average becomes 100 but it does not mean that he is the best player in the world. Turkey outnumbered India only for wek but if this keeps you happy then you be it.


> Oh we were also considered as the world fastest growing economy once,


Yes and Now you are in Top 10 failed nation index.

Now as I have discussed enough nonsense with you. Lets move either for a logical discussion or drop it here.

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## Pride

civfanatic said:


> It is a book also published much earlier perhaps you can order it from M J AKBAR : Books by M J Akbar... Bipin chandra is not hardcore Marxist infact he criticizes Indian left on thier opposition to Mr. Gandhi However he utilizes marxist method albiet with some qualifications . Morever it is not about his interpretation but facts,which im sure you can easily dig out in this age of google . *BTW you are talking to a Kashmiri from Sopore living in Srinagar* .



Surely I will look out for the same and before that I am unable to comment.

Regarding bolded part, It doesnot matter for me your geographical location when you are using Syed Shah Geelani's Photograph and Pakistan's flag then you are as good as Pakistani for me.


----------



## Moorkh

as far as kashmir is concerned, agreed the people have some genuine greivances, they are not what they seem to be asking for when shouting those slogans. 

kashmiris dont want to live in a state where the police and CRPF keep checking them for weapons. they see the CRPF as outsiders forcing themselves onto kashmir. reducing the CRPF presence can help in this regard, as long as the J&K police can handle the law and order problems by itself.


----------



## civfanatic

Moorkh said:


> try reading the section about DMK from the same book again then.
> 
> you will see why your argument fails.
> 
> the secessionist movement was in 1950s, a time when india was consolidating itself as a young country. secondly as is mentioned in the same section, the other southern states did not support the DMK in its secessionist demands. a primary reason why the leaders moved away from secessionist demands to becoming part of the indian political arena.
> 
> also as has already been mentioned , it was non violent



Was there any arguement in my post ? I simply stated a fact that most of Indians here seemed to be unaware of or too reluctant to admit . I don't see how my non existing arguement fails .


----------



## Areesh

your fear said:


> the same rule apply for Pakistan we know power of people example is BD



Yeah obviously he rule applies to Pakistan as well. The muslims of sub continent realized their power and result is partition of India and existence of Pakistan.


----------



## civfanatic

Pride said:


> Surely I will look out for the same and before that I am unable to comment.
> 
> Regarding bolded part, It doesnot matter for me your geographical location when you are using Syed Shah Geelani's Photograph and Pakistan's flag then you are as good as Pakistani for me.



Well quite an accurate realization ...


----------



## Pride

Moorkh said:


> as far as kashmir is concerned, agreed the people have some genuine greivances, they are not what they seem to be asking for when shouting those slogans.
> 
> kashmiris dont want to live in a state where the police and CRPF keep checking them for weapons. they see the CRPF as outsiders forcing themselves onto kashmir. reducing the CRPF presence can help in this regard, as long as the J&K police can handle the law and order problems by itself.



You are absolutely right.. I discussed with Kashmiris and they are actually fed up of many thing. 
1) Presence of Indian Army and checking for Locals & their home
2) Cut away from mainstream Indian politics. Abdullahs and Muftis are not involving Kashmiris
3) Unemployment
4) Militants like LeJ, LeT, HUJI
5) Dubious politicians like Syed Ali shah Geelani who is in neighbour's payroll (Though I find Meerwaiz umar farooq bit sensible)
6) JK Police. Half are on double payroll of India as well as Pakistan hence if they kill even 1 people blame goes to India.
7) No proper commutation available to contact other side of Kashmiris.


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## footmarks

civfanatic said:


> Well quite an accurate realization ...



I offer you a free of cost "Never-to-return" air ticket to mujaffarabad.

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## civfanatic

footmarks said:


> I offer you a free of cost "Never-to-return" air ticket to mujaffarabad.



What makes you think we will let you have this land . It belongs to us and we will never betray our land ....


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## footmarks

civfanatic said:


> What makes you think we will let you have this land . It belongs to us and we will never betray our land ....



Mujaffarabad is not part of your land??

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## mikkix

Prism said:


> *Kashmiri separatist are exposed*.one of the hurriyat leader son study in UK,another one's son study in delhi university,and these morons are using the youth to throw stones.



where Gandhi completed his education,,some other examples too..


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## EjazR

Looks like in their "happiness" of the slogan, some Pakistanis have not even read and understood the article.

Here you have a firece critic of the Indian state and well known liberal criticising the Kashmiri political class. There is no doubt that Kashmir leaders from Geelani to Mirwaiz to Abdullas are one of the main reason behind the misery of their people.

He is trying to open the eyes of the reclusive KAshmiris in the valley to broaden thier horizon and engage the civil society of India rather than alienate them. Only then they will see a change in their situation.

The reason is simple. The only two ways that a major change will come in the Kashmir situation is
(1) A international superpower militarily intervenes. This is not going to happen as the US afterits adventure in Iraq and Afghanistan has no appetite. Any lesser powers like Pakistan or China attempting to do will fail as was seen in Kargil.

(2) Build civil society opinion in India for a settlement inKashmir. India as a democratic country has to answer to the electorate. The "plebescite" can't berestricted to the valley or J&K state, ithas to be the entire Indian state. If Kashmiri politcal leaders join hand with injustice happening inother parts of India,then naturally Indian civil society will help them out in turn. Infact they are already doing so now. And it is because of the Indian civil society pressure and NOT International pressure that a number of packages are coming up.

Some Kashmiri political leaders are realising this fact and instead of asking OIC, UN, US e.t.c. they are now focussing their attention on Indian civil society. They are running road shows to explain to people what is happening. Something that never happened before. Even Geelani has stated that offensive slogans against India should not be raised. 

This is what Jawed Naqvi is alluding to. To realise the folly on asking International community (forget Pakistan) and to focus in joining hands with other Indians fighting injustice. The problems that Kashmiris face are not unique and if they only broaden their horzons they will see that just a few 100 kilometresaway last year, 70 Gujjars lost their lives in Gujjar agitations for reservations; that UP has had 300+ cases of deaths in police firing and so on. They will have a stronger voice when the voice of rest of India is behind them when the fight injustice.

That was the point of the article.

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## Trisonics

Can some body from Pakistan explain how they see "azaadi" for Kashmir?

a) Freedom for people of Kashmir from India.

b) Freedom for Kashmir(land) from India.

For all the hatred that you spew from across the border, why not just open the gates and let Kashmiris(who wish to move) into your side ??? After all its still Azadi is it not? You guys do occupy a part of Kashmir anyway..so why not help the people you are so concerned about?? Atleast its a start and rather than just typing away your sympathies..you actually did something for the Kashmiris from "Hindu" occupation.


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## Pride

civfanatic said:


> What makes you think we will let you have this land . It belongs to us and we will never betray our land ....



It has first right of Kashmiri Pandits whom you and your friends exiled forcefully and now you are coming with victim like rhetoric.


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## mikkix

Trisonics said:


> Can some body from Pakistan explain how they see "azaadi" for Kashmir?
> 
> a) Freedom for people of Kashmir from India.
> 
> b) Freedom for Kashmir(land) from India.
> 
> For all the hatred that you spew from across the border, why not just open the gates and let Kashmiris(who wish to move) into your side ??? After all its still Azadi is it not? You guys do occupy a part of Kashmir anyway..so why not help the people you are so concerned about?? Atleast its a start and rather than just typing away your sympathies..you actually did something for the Kashmiris from "Hindu" occupation.



we want whole India

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## civfanatic

Pride said:


> It has first right of Kashmiri Pandits whom you and your friends exiled forcefully and now you are coming with victim like rhetoric.



Why do you think Pandits have first right? And part of your sentence relating to Pandits is BS . Migration of Pandits was result of complex interplay of factors though we Kashmiri Muslims do share a part of blame but a lot of blame should be appropriated by Pandit elite and GOI. It is not as black and white as you think it is .


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## Pride

mikkix said:


> we want whole India



Are mera bachcha.. you need whole India... koi is doodh ki bottle thamao..

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## Frankenstein

Pride said:


> I am not feeling anything as I dont have hate filled eyes.. You may continue..



Yeah, Piss on someone face and say its raining, that common in India I guess, you guys dont admit, after all those hatred posts you are say yo dont hate us, how absurd and lame



> Now you learned that how a stupid post is responded so lets move ahead.



After all you learn that from me




> Raping is done by your so called "Freedom Fighters". I see nobody ever scolded them here. Kids were in protest for playing gilli danda? Why there parents did not stop them?



Lame again, you dont need to clean your Army's mess, you are better then that



> Anyways, You stop your freedom movements, we remove our army no **** and killing.



*Freedom movement is usually started by the one who is in oppression, so apparently Kashmirs Know what they are feeling, who we to deny that ?? *



> Go take a nap and then come back, you have also missed many more propaganda articles about Kashmir.



*Seeing is believing*, there is a video of it as well, but obviously you will deny that as well, you are an Indian you know



> In cricket, even a debut player hits century his average becomes 100 but it does not mean that he is the best player in the world. Turkey outnumbered India only for wek but if this keeps you happy then you be it.



We arent watching cricket here, if that is the case then it applies to India as well



> Yes and Now you are in Top 10 failed nation index.



get your head out of the gutter, we are at war and facing so many crises (Look at Israel), infact you are facing nothing but your country is in the list too



> Now as I have discussed enough nonsense with you. Lets move either for a logical discussion or drop it here.



Starving, tattered India; More valuable than life, Pakistan: New Kashmiri slogan

*What do you say about that, not rants or trolls please like you have been doing for quiet sm time now*


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## indianpatriot

mikkix said:


> where Gandhi completed his education,,some other examples too..



gandhi did his education before he had any plans to fight for india and when he was pro british and was not son of any freedom fighter.It like you argiung on the colour of napies even before copulation.

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## Pride

civfanatic said:


> Why do you think Pandits have first right? And part of your sentence relating to Pandits is BS . Migration of Pandits was result of complex interplay of factors though we Kashmiri Muslims do share a part of blame but a lot of blame should be appropriated by Pandit elite and GOI. It is not as black and white as you think it is .



Because Since Kashmir was named on "Rishi Kashyap" and Islam was not there It belongs to them and not Mr Geelani, Hurriyat or Pakistan.

According to your logic, Lets migrate you and your leader's supporter to Pakistan to make it Black and White and then Kashmir will have Aman and Chain. isn't it?

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## mikkix

Pride said:


> Are mera bachcha.. you need whole India... koi is doodh ki bottle thamao..



Plz give me some indian milk...


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## Nav

Prism said:


> atleast i never heard abt this with living in india.



u never heard abt it but nw i m providing u a link which u will read .ok?
India - Terrorists Groups


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## ambidex

Fail like Pakistani were showing Chinese mortars as Indian.
Thats another propaganda. 
They have done many attacks on civilians wearing Police like uniforms to spread hatred against forces. The People shown in videos are all wearing different uniforms one is wearing a different color flap cap and non of them is wearing CRPF uniform. 
One guy wearing a cameo uniform is again not InA uniform. Also assault rifel carried by one of the pretend force guy in not Insas rifel. One of the J&K police look alike guy is wearing belt over his jumper and shirt is out of the pant which is again not J&K police. Also J&K police has big red shoulder tag on each dark green jumper which is not visible. 
20 rupees/hour rented uniforms not bad for short budget insurgents. The cameraman was more interested in filming biceps of one of the naked guy. 

J&K Police






look at the belt






YouTube, Facebook in trouble over J-K video - India News - IBNLive

New Delhi: The Union Government on Thursday said that a video clip, purportedly showing some uniformed personnel herding four naked men in Kashmir, had not been "authenticated" and agencies had been asked to investigate the matter.
"No one has been able to authenticate the video so far," Home Minister P Chidambaram said in New Delhi while replying to a question on the three-minute video clip uploaded on prominent social networking sites YouTube and Facebook.
Chidambaram said that he had asked security agencies to find out whether anybody featuring in the video had spoken out.

"Until it is authenticated and the persons identified, I think it would be unsafe to rely on such video," he said.
Meanwhile, Jammu and Kashmir Police said they would register a case against the two social networking sites for uploading the video purportedly showing four youths being paraded naked by some uniformed personnel in Sopore area of Kashmir.
"A formal case is being registered against the YouTube and Facebook networks and investigation is on to locate the persons responsible for uploading this baseless and malicious clip," a police spokesman said.
He said police have taken cognizance of the video clip and initial investigations have shown that these reports have not been verified as yet and therefore "to attribute it to security forces with the intention of maligning them and spreading disaffection among the people is highly regrettable".
"Action shall also be taken against other organisations who tried to propagate it," he added.
The video, which appeared on YouTube first and then on Facebook, purportedly showed Kashmiri youths being stripped and paraded naked through an agricultural field in Sopore, 55 kms from Srinagar.

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## civfanatic

Pride said:


> Because Since Kashmir was named on "Rishi Kashyap" and Islam was not there It belongs to them and not Mr Geelani, Hurriyat or Pakistan.
> 
> According to your logic, Lets migrate you and your leader's supporter to Pakistan to make it Black and White and then Kashmir will have Aman and Chain. isn't it?



Your logic is kind of weird . I hope in your twisted logic you comprehend that a large majority of native kashmiris choose to be muslims . This does not make them forgieners in thier own land . The vast majority of kashmiris are muslim is a historical outcome . I don't blame you but RSS propaganda is realy bad for mental health .


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## Sonic_boom

> get your head out of the gutter, we are at war and facing so many crises (Look at Israel), infact you are facing nothing but your country is in the list too


Every country is in this list..get a life dude first come out of top ten FAILED nations and then chant bhoka nanga whatever
2010 Failed States Index - Interactive Map and Rankings | Foreign Policy

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## Jackdaws

civfanatic said:


> Your logic is kind of weird . I hope in your twisted logic you comprehend that a large majority of native kashmiris choose to be muslims . This does not make them forgieners in thier own land . The vast majority of kashmiris are muslim is a historical outcome . I don't blame you but RSS propaganda is realy bad for mental health .



Based on your logic, shouldn't Muslims give up claim to Jerusalem - it is after all over 65% Jewish???.


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## Paan Singh

civfanatic said:


> Your logic is kind of weird . I hope in your twisted logic you comprehend that a large majority of native kashmiris choose to be muslims . This does not make them forgieners in thier own land . The vast majority of kashmiris are muslim is a historical outcome . I don't blame you but RSS propaganda is realy bad for mental health .



read some history and please go back some thousands year back.u might have some knowledge washed or reloaded.do u remember hindukush mountains.


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## Jackdaws

Prism said:


> read some history and please go back some thousands year back.u might have some knowledge washed or reloaded.do u remember hindukush mountains.



How would he remember? I don't think he is that old...


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## Frankenstein

Sonic_boom said:


> Every country is in this list..get a life dude first come out of top ten FAILED nations and then chant bhoka nanga whatever
> 2010 Failed States Index - Interactive Map and Rankings | Foreign Policy



yeah right, we are even worst then Ethiopia, Kenya and Nigeria, you geta life dude

Half of your country is filled with poverty, your country has the most poor people, get out of that list first


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## Paan Singh

Frankenstein said:


> yeah right, we are even worst then Ethiopia, Kenya and Nigeria, you geta life dude
> 
> Half of your country is filled with poverty, your country has the most poor people, get out of that list first



i want to give more intersting thing.do u know that country having poverty doesnt mean that it is a failed nation.but u qualified so plz search out wat are the factors?

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## mikkix

Jackdaws said:


> Based on your logic, shouldn't Muslims give up claim to Jerusalem - it is after all over 65% Jewish???.



there are more palestinians then israelis in the state of jerusalem.


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## Frankenstein

Jackdaws said:


> Based on your logic, shouldn't Muslims give up claim to Jerusalem - it is after all over 65% Jewish???.



cuz Israel captured Jerusalem and now it is in Israel and Israel is a Jewish country and apparently many Jews settled in Jerusalem after that, 

And also after capturing it they dont have there Army roaming about and killing there own countrymen


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## Zuzula

Asim Aquil said:


> The massacres of Muslims?
> 
> The continuous threats by government officials to send them to Pakistan?
> 
> The state cajoling the perpetrators of the babri mosque demolition?
> 
> "Ghulami main khush hain, abhi doosron ki
> Ke rehtay hain jannat main, woh ahmakon ki".


*
How many Muslims massacred in Pakistan is way way more than India. Just see how many suicide bombing occurred in the religious shrines of the Muslims in last two/three years in Pakistan wrt India. I think Muslims are safe more in India than Pakistan. * 

*What about the regular Shia killings? *


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## Jackdaws

mikkix said:


> there are more palestinians then israelis in the state of jerusalem.



Jerusalem is a city, not a state. Jerusalem has some 65% Jews and 30 odd% Muslims. And in the state of Israel the Jews are some 75% of the population. But we are digressing from the topic. My point is that you can't have 2 sets of rules for a similar problem.

a. If it is about % of population, then Pakistan should not support Palestine cause based on their 2 nation theory

b. If it is about ancient land and holy land then Pakistan should give up claim to Kashmir - with places like Amarnath and Shankaracharya temple being important to the Hindu faith.


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## Mahdi

Zuzula said:


> *
> How many Muslims massacred in Pakistan is way way more than India. Just see how many suicide bombing occurred in the religious shrines of the Muslims in last two/three years in Pakistan wrt India. I think Muslims are safe more in India than Pakistan. *
> 
> *What about the regular Shia killings? *



killing of Muslims taking place in all parts of the world, whether Pakistan, Kashmir, India, Arabs, Afghanistan, Iraq....


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## Jackdaws

Frankenstein said:


> cuz Israel captured Jerusalem and now it is in Israel and Israel is a Jewish country and apparently many Jews settled in Jerusalem after that,
> 
> And also after capturing it they dont have there Army roaming about and killing there own countrymen



Ever heard of the West Bank? The Israeli army roams their country like a pack of cheetahs. If you think Kashmir is militarized, visit Israel.

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## Mahdi

Zuzula said:


> *
> How many Muslims massacred in Pakistan is way way more than India. Just see how many suicide bombing occurred in the religious shrines of the Muslims in last two/three years in Pakistan wrt India. I think Muslims are safe more in India than Pakistan. *
> 
> *What about the regular Shia killings? *



Don't say Shia after all are muslims..


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## Frankenstein

Prism said:


> i want to give more intersting thing.do u know that country having poverty doesnt mean that it is a failed nation.but u qualified so plz search out wat are the factors?



*Do you know...*

That if a country is a failed state it doesnt means they dont exist, it doesnt means that it does not have the 6 largest military in the world and produce aircrafts, missiles and tanks which some countries dream of , it does not means that it is a non nuclear state, it doesnt means that they arent united under one flag

*well it doesnt mean alot of thing you know*, a simple rumored ranking wont explain everything


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## Frankenstein

Jackdaws said:


> Ever heard of the West Bank? The Israeli army roams their country like a pack of cheetahs. If you think Kashmir is militarized, visit Israel.



May be because there isnt any difference between Israeli army and Indian army, both are violating human right


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## mikkix

Jackdaws said:


> Jerusalem is a city, not a state. Jerusalem has some 65% Jews and 30 odd% Muslims. And in the state of Israel the Jews are some 75% of the population. But we are digressing from the topic. My point is that you can't have 2 sets of rules for a similar problem.
> 
> a. If it is about % of population, then Pakistan should not support Palestine cause based on their 2 nation theory
> 
> b. If it is about ancient land and holy land then Pakistan should give up claim to Kashmir - with places like Amarnath and Shankaracharya temple being important to the Hindu faith.



I know Jerusalem is a city..
the population of muslims are more than jews in that region of Israel/Palestine..

b) The people of kashmiris lives there for thousand of years..
But jews of israel migrated to capture the land..

If china or any country invades india and captures it and then kick all indians from india and made india there state then what you suggest..


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## Jackdaws

Frankenstein said:


> May be because there isnt any difference between Israeli army and Indian army, both are violating human right



You will be surprised but I agree - both of them violate human rights. It is a shame.


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## Frankenstein

Jackdaws said:


> You will be surprised but I agree - both of them violate human rights. It is a shame.



shocker


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Gandhis advise works opositely!

Dont see good
Dont hear good(dont accept the truth).
*Dont do good!*!

Sumum buk mum ....


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## footmarks

Frankenstein said:


> May be because there isnt any difference between Israeli army and Indian army, both are violating human right



Ya, and the islamic terrorists, which you call Freedom fighters (or whatever you wish) are wiping out the humanity itself by killing humans across the globe, not only in India, not only in US, but also back home in Pakistan.


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## Jackdaws

mikkix said:


> I know Jerusalem is a city..
> the population of muslims are more than jews in that region of Israel/Palestine..
> 
> b) The people of kashmiris lives there for thousand of years..
> But jews of israel migrated to capture the land..
> 
> If china or any country invades india and captures it and then kick all indians from india and made india there state then what you suggest..



The Chinese did that in Tibet - how come you guys support Chinese takeover of Tibet or don't raise your voice against that injustice. 

And Jews claim it is their ancient homeland. If they did not, the British would probably have given them some island in the Caribbean to make their homeland and everyone would be happy. 

Lastly, Jews outnumber Muslims in Jerusalem - look it up.


----------



## Zuzula

Mahdi said:


> killing of Muslims taking place in all parts of the world, whether Pakistan, Kashmir, India, Arabs, Afghanistan, Iraq....



I know in all over the world but in which country they kill each other of the same religion? How many Muslims were killed in Pakistan and rest of the world? 

*I am a Shia. *


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## Frankenstein

Zuzula said:


> *
> How many Muslims massacred in Pakistan is way way more than India. Just see how many suicide bombing occurred in the religious shrines of the Muslims in last two/three years in Pakistan wrt India. I think Muslims are safe more in India than Pakistan. *
> 
> *What about the regular Shia killings? *



Strange, you joined today and you posted two posts both against Pakistan, first one was


> Strange thought! What can Pakistan do to UK??!!
> 
> From so many countries they take shelter in UK.


 doesn't looks like a coincidence to me, being a Pakistani I wont diss my country twice at the same time so,

*Is that all you Indians can do, reply against us under our flag via a fake ID, cant you face the reality like a man*

awkward


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## Zuzula

*We are talking about the Kashmir but what about the Muslims (specially Shia) in Pakistan itself? How many Muslims we kill each year???*


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## toppys

Mahdi said:


> killing of Muslims taking place in all parts of the world, whether Pakistan, Kashmir, India, Arabs, Afghanistan, Iraq....



There are more hindus who get killed in India than muslims...When muslims die it is news. Thats all. I think on an yearly basis more muslims get killed in pakistan than anywhere else. Should be interesting if someone can prove otherwise...


----------



## Zuzula

Frankenstein said:


> Strange, you joined today and you posted two posts both against Pakistan, first one was
> 
> doesn't looks like a coincidence to me, being a Pakistani I wont diss my country twice at the same time so,
> 
> *Is that all you Indians can do, reply against us under our flag via a fake ID, cant you face the reality like a man*
> 
> awkward



For the same reasons the Muslims of Kashmir don't like India, why should a Shia will like Pakistan?

*Don't run away from the questions I asked, How many Muslims were killed in Kashmir and Pakistan? *


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## mikkix

Jackdaws said:


> The Chinese did that in Tibet - how come you guys support Chinese takeover of Tibet or don't raise your voice against that injustice.
> 
> *And Jews claim it is their ancient homeland.* If they did not, the British would probably have given them some island in the Caribbean to make their homeland and everyone would be happy.
> 
> Lastly, Jews outnumber Muslims in Jerusalem - look it up.



Tibet issue is definitely be raised for me...
*Jews of what european jews, australian jews, american jews, russian jews????*
If muslims of Afghanistan says that India is our ancestral land and we lived 1000 years then what will i Do???


----------



## Frankenstein

Zuzula said:


> I know in all over the world but in which country they kill each other of the same religion? How many Muslims were killed in Pakistan and rest of the world?
> 
> *I am a Shia. *



I am a shia too, and I love it here in Pakistan, how is it in India fake Pakistani??


----------



## footmarks

Zuzula said:


> *We are talking about the Kashmir but what about the Muslims (specially Shia) in Pakistan itself? How many Muslims we kill each year???*



Buddy, if you are indeed a pakistani, hide your IP. otherwise, tomorrow morning it will be your house where the next blast will take place.

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## Zuzula

Frankenstein said:


> I am a shia too, and I love it here in Pakistan, how is it in India fake Pakistani??


*
Just guess that I am an 'Indian' and can you answer my question now??? Don't run away from the fact calling me an Indian. *

Stop killing of Shia and other Muslims in Pakistan than we will think about Kashmir, Palestine, Chechnya etc etc.


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## Jackdaws

Frankenstein said:


> Strange, you joined today and you posted two posts both against Pakistan, first one was
> 
> doesn't looks like a coincidence to me, being a Pakistani I wont diss my country twice at the same time so,
> 
> *Is that all you Indians can do, reply against us under our flag via a fake ID, cant you face the reality like a man*
> 
> awkward



I don't mind dissing India in public - whether it is in front of Pakistanis or Martians. I have been castigated by some Indian posters for this too. That does not make me anti-national or unpatriotic - I can't think of anything more patriotic than standing up for the beliefs on which your country was founded - liberty, equality and fraternity.

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## mikkix

Zuzula said:


> I know in all over the world but in which country they kill each other of the same religion? How many Muslims were killed in Pakistan and rest of the world?
> 
> *I am a Shia. *



he is a muslim...
Shia are muslims I believed in it..,,, do you agree on that???
We are living in dark ages of our time..
Hitler kills its own,,, Hindu Rajas killed their owns, chines did that too..


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Mashallah.....

I like the slogan a lot 

Kashmiris know we are with them; and we know they are with us.


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## footmarks

mikkix said:


> he is a muslim...
> Shia are muslims I believed in it..,,, do you agree on that???
> We are living in dark ages of our time..
> *Hitler kills its own,,, Hindu Rajas killed their owns, chines did that too.*.



I agree, but apart from Hitler, others you mentioned kill their own inside their own land. They didnt indulged themselves into a killing spree worldwide in the name of religion.


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## Frankenstein

Zuzula said:


> For the same reasons the Muslims of Kashmir don't like India, why should a Shia will like Pakistan?
> 
> *Don't run away from the questions I asked, How many Muslims were killed in Kashmir and Pakistan? *



In Pakistan Muslims are killed by Taliban suicide bomber A.K.A *TERRORISTS*, in Kashmir Muslims are killed by Indian Army in Palestine Muslims are killed by Israeli forces, there is no difference, and I didnt counted the bodies neither Im a victim of any of them, MashAllah

I am a shia I love Pakistan, my dozens of friends are shia they love Pakistan, what kind of a Pakistani are you, or I said it right didnt I, you are an Indian under Pakistani flag, constantly dissing Pakistan in an International forum


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## footmarks

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Mashallah.....
> 
> I like the slogan a lot
> 
> Kashmiris know we are with them; and we know they are with us.



And rest of the world knows that you are living in a fools' paradise.

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## footmarks

Frankenstein said:


> In Pakistan Muslims are killed by Taliban suicide bomber A.K.A *TERRORISTS*, in Kashmir Muslims are killed by Indian Army in Palestine Muslims are killed by Israeli forces, there is no difference, and I didnt counted the bodies neither Im a victim of any of them, MashAllah
> 
> I am a shia I love Pakistan, my dozens of friends are shia they love Pakistan, what kind of a Pakistani are you, or I said it right didnt I, you are an Indian under Pakistani flag, constantly dissing Pakistan in an International forum



In India and rest of the world, muslim terrorists are killing everyone, irrespective of their caste, creed or religion. Atleast they are not biased.
Tell me, isnt this arguement sound stupid -"Indian army, US army, Israeli army and whole worlds' armies are killing innocent muslims"

Taali ek haath se nahi bajti mere dost. If you think that you, only you are innocent and everybody else out there is trying to harm you, probably your thinking and your acts are wrong, not the whole world.


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## Frankenstein

Zuzula said:


> Just guess that *I am an 'Indian'* and can you answer my question now??? Don't run away from the fact calling me an Indian.
> 
> Stop killing of Shia and other Muslims in Pakistan than we will think about Kashmir, Palestine, Chechnya etc etc.



*I just caught a thief using fake ID, MODs will do the honer*

Look at him he is claiming that I just killed Shia and other Muslims in Pakistan, *OMG i need immunity!! *


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## Abu Zolfiqar

roach said:


> The color of money and prosperity will cure Kashmiri ills.



unfortunately (for hindustan), this is CLEARLY not the case.

it is an existential issue; not a financial one. Supporting puppet leaders and throwing money at them is indeed a flawed policy. 

It's bound for failure (it already is failing)


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## mikkix

footmarks said:


> I agree, but apart from Hitler, others you mentioned kill their own inside their own land. They didnt indulged themselves into a killing spree worldwide in the name of religion.



Ohh really, what Gengis khan doing in Mid asia,,
Remember Asoka, he is the one that stretched the boundary of India..


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## footmarks

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> unfortunately (for hindustan), this is CLEARLY not the case.
> 
> it is an existential issue; not a financial one. Supporting puppet leaders and throwing money at them is indeed a flawed policy.
> 
> It's bound for failure *(it already is failing)*



Ya, for the past 60 years. Except that its rate of failure is slower than the rate of failure of Pakistan as a country.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

footmarks said:


> And rest of the world knows that you are living in a fools' paradise.



we'll see about that 

we already know who the fools are....thinking they can artificially hold onto land that is clearly anti-hindustany since the get-go.

it's heart-warming that despite the issues Pakistan faces, Kashmiris are in full solidarity with Pakistan and vice versa. Difficult times helps bond friends/brothers together. We will continue our moral support to our Kashmiri bretheren across LoC suffering injustices and oppression by the sissies (aka indian police/army)


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## mikkix

footmarks said:


> In India and rest of the world, muslim terrorists are killing everyone, irrespective of their caste, creed or religion. Atleast they are not biased.
> Tell me, isnt this arguement sound stupid -"*Indian army, US army, Israeli army* and whole worlds' armies are killing innocent muslims"
> 
> Taali ek haath se nahi bajti mere dost. If you think that you, only you are innocent and everybody else out there is trying to harm you, probably your thinking and your acts are wrong, not the whole world.



So you agree that you guys are on the same page....

You supports Iraq war with America and israel???
Pls suggest what muslims do??????????????????


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## Frankenstein

footmarks said:


> In India and rest of the world, muslim terrorists are killing everyone, irrespective of their caste, creed or religion. Atleast they are not biased.
> Tell me, isnt this arguement sound stupid -"Indian army, US army, Israeli army and whole worlds' armies are killing innocent muslims"
> 
> Taali ek haath se nahi bajti mere dost. If you think that you, only you are innocent and everybody else out there is trying to harm you, probably your thinking and your acts are wrong, not the whole world.



C'mon man I was replying to that fake Pakistani guy, so I claim in Pakistan Hindu terrorists are killing everyone , Wht i mean is terrorist dnt have any religion so stop calling them Muslims


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## Abu Zolfiqar

footmarks said:


> Ya, for the past 60 years. Except that its rate of failure is slower than the rate of failure of Pakistan as a country.



''Ya'' well Pakistan IS a country; despite all odds, and despite a very rough beginning. That in itself is a testament. Our victory was your (hindustany) failure starting in 1947.

therefore I dont know what you're talking about


the best advice i can give to you and your people is that you should prepare yourselves on HOW to deal with an independent Kashmir; which is inevitable. If not in my lifetime, perhaps in that of my children. Inshallah.


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## booo

best of luck supporters. you gonna need it.
few trouble makers dont constitute the entire kashmir. go and talk about freedom to someone in leh or jammu, you gonna get a kick in the balls.

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## Paan Singh

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> we'll see about that
> 
> we already know who the fools are....thinking they can artificially hold onto land that is clearly anti-hindustany since the get-go.
> 
> it's heart-warming that despite the issues Pakistan faces, Kashmiris are in full solidarity with Pakistan and vice versa. Difficult times helps bond friends/brothers together. We will continue our moral support to our Kashmiri bretheren across LoC suffering injustices and oppression by the sissies (aka indian police/army)



_then y dont u call them in the land of pure so that they can live there without oppression.i never heard gop issuing statement related to this ,if they really care for them .well u acept it or not.real issue is water which comes frm kashmir and another is land,and all world knows who cares abt the brothers and human rights.btw y dont u go and fight with israel ,u know y coz israel doesnt give u land and is not the source of water for pakistan.all is hypocrisy_

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## footmarks

mikkix said:


> Ohh really, what Gengis khan doing in Mid asia,,
> Remember Asoka, he is the one that stretched the boundary of India..



But ashoka also killed Indians, even if there was no country as India then, but people -culturally, ethnically and religiously were similar. Hope you are getting my point. 

Anyways, my point was - if everyone is coming your way, you are probably in the wrong lane. Muslims are victims everywhere, muslims are killed everywhere, muslims are subjected to racism, muslims are connected with terrorism, muslims are falsely abused in the name of national security, muslims are subjected to profiling ...etc etc. dont you think there is a fault somewhere in the ideology which have come up and corrupted the muslim society? I dont believe that religion is at fault. All religions of this world preach goodwill and humanity and peaceful co-existance.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

booo said:


> best of luck supporters. you gonna need it.
> few trouble makers dont constitute the entire kashmir. go and talk about freedom to someone in leh or jammu, you gonna get a kick in the balls.



kick in the balls by the occupying forces; not by the locals

(democratic) freedom activists like Shabir Ahmed Shah can attest to that


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## Paan Singh

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> ''Ya'' well Pakistan IS a country; despite all odds, and despite a very rough beginning. That in itself is a testament. Our victory was your (hindustany) failure starting in 1947.
> 
> therefore I dont know what you're talking about
> 
> 
> the best advice i can give to you and your people is that you should prepare yourselves on HOW to deal with an independent Kashmir; which is inevitable. If not in my lifetime, perhaps in that of my children. Inshallah.





> the best advice i can give to you and your people is that you should prepare yourselves on HOW to deal with an independent Kashmir;



it is our atut -ang ,in english it means integral i.e unbreakable .rest u can understand and dont teach false things or un getable to ur children.

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## footmarks

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> ''Ya'' well Pakistan IS a country; despite all odds, and despite a very rough beginning. That in itself is a testament. Our victory was your (hindustany) failure starting in 1947.
> 
> therefore I dont know what you're talking about
> 
> 
> *the best advice i can give to you and your people is that you should prepare yourselves on HOW to deal with an independent Kashmir; which is inevitable. If not in my lifetime, perhaps in that of my children. Inshallah.*



Mark my words, your great-great-great grand children would also be saying exactly the same words.

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## mikkix

footmarks said:


> But ashoka also killed Indians, even if there was no country as India then, but people -culturally, ethnically and religiously were similar. Hope you are getting my point.
> 
> Anyways, my point was - if everyone is coming your way, you are probably in the wrong lane. Muslims are victims everywhere, muslims are killed everywhere, muslims are subjected to racism, muslims are connected with terrorism, muslims are falsely abused in the name of national security, muslims are subjected to profiling ...etc etc. dont you think there is a fault somewhere in the ideology which have come up and corrupted the muslim society? I dont believe that religion is at fault. All religions of this world preach goodwill and humanity and peaceful co-existance.



oh yes the problem is in there with muslims because muslims are in poor state means currently they are not actively participating in the requirements of 21st century so they will pay the price for it.
1.6 billion muslims have no Islamic state yes they have a muslim state but those states are nothing but a childs play..


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## mikkix

footmarks said:


> Mark my words, your great-great-great grand children would also be saying exactly the same words.



C,mon man we will see in our lifetime...
make a bet with me.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Prism said:


> _then y dont u call them in the land of pure so that they can live there without oppression._


_

they are welcome to move to Pakistan anytime that they want; but they are Kashmiri peoples --their home is Kashmir.

if they are lobbying for the freedom of their land, why in God's name would they leave their land? The only people to do that were the so-called pandits who ran away to hindustan for purely economic reasons.





i never heard gop issuing statement related to this ,if they really care for them .well u acept it or not.real issue is water which comes frm kashmir and another is land,and all world knows who cares abt the brothers and human rights.

Click to expand...


I am not working for or representing government of Pakistan. I can assure you though that most (if not all) Pakistanis ''really care'' for Kashmiris. As cheesy and lame as it may sound, Kashmiris and Kashmir have a special place in all our hearts. We do not accept the illegal occupation of Kashmir.

water is of course a strategic issue which happens to involve Kashmir. But as it is a Muslim majority region, and as a huge &#37; of the people in Kashmir openly show their solidarity to Pakistan (not necessarily meaning that all want to join Pakistan) then it would be ridiculous for any Pakistani to ignore this.




btw y dont u go and fight with israel ,u know y coz israel doesnt give u land and is not the source of water for pakistan.all is hypocrisy

Click to expand...

_


>



so in this hypothetical situation, why would i fight with israil? 

I (and i'm sure many of my comrades) do sympathise heavily with Palestinian cause. It's not our fight, but once again --we do show solidarity with them needless to say. In fact, my aunt was a medic volunteering in the Gaza Strip prior to and slightly after the 2nd intifada.

incidentally, Falsateen/israil conflict, though mentioned in the article that Asim bhai posted, has little relevance to the topic on a macro level. 

Please go pop some more popcorn; add some salt and a few tea-spoons of warm butter to add to the flavour; then come back & stick to topic

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## Paan Singh

mikkix said:


> C,mon man we will see in our lifetime...
> make a bet with me.



u stole my words,so how much u can go.i am thinking to place same bet on pakistan integrity.

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## footmarks

mikkix said:


> oh yes the problem is in there with muslims because muslims are in poor state means currently they are not actively participating in the requirements of 21st century so they will pay the price for it.
> 1.6 billion muslims have no Islamic state yes they have a muslim state but those states are nothing but a childs play..



I have nothing against muslims personally dear. I just want to point out that you people think that you are victimized by every country, every religion in this world because you are muslims. and then you keep on killing your fellow muslims too. Which makes people think that there is something wrong with ISLAM. I dont believe, as I already mentioned, that the religion is at fault. Its the ideology of being a victim that is at fault combined with the notion of taking revenge with "Kafirs".


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## xyz

why are you guys wasting your time on such BAKWAAS??

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## Isaq Khan

Asim Aquil said:


> *Bhooka nanga Hindustan; Jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Starving and tattered India we reject; Pakistan - land of our dreams - we embrace.)*
> 
> I think what the Kashmiris are doing is the best they can out of a horrible situation imposed upon them by India. *The fact that Indian Muslims are still ready to appease and fit in with their Hindu fellow citizens really does land them in no man's land. Never accepted by Hindus, yet forced to reject their Muslim causes world over.*



*And we are hearing it from horses mouth the official spokesperson of Indian Muslims "Asim Aquil"*

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## Isaq Khan

Asim Aquil said:


> *The massacres of Muslims?*
> 
> "Ghulami main khush hain, abhi doosron ki
> Ke rehtay hain jannat main, woh ahmakon ki".




Are you talking about East Pakistan (Now, Bangladesh) Baluchistan or ethnic cleansing in sindh or daily killings of Shias, Ahamadiyas?????

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## rafay321

riju78 said:


> u talk abt HINDU majority!
> but the prime minister is sikh, J&K CM is muslim and defence minister of india is Christian... these are the people who makes the decisions my friend...



Nice showcase you have got there. Just like your country wasted no time to install Abdul Kalam as president to save its secular image after the Muslim massacre. Your force is occupying Kashmir's land and we are sleeping? 



Bang Galore said:


> Maybe you would have, but also probable that you might have ended up a very rich man aka Premji. Who knows? Anyways, we are glad that you have left behind any connection to India & moved on.
> 
> Now if only you could also let go of the baggage that you seem to carry.....
> 
> It gets a little boring after some time to hear how lucky you were to get away from India & not get caught up in the 2001 Gujrat riots or the even earlier 1992 Bombay riots especially when you could get yourself killed in a 100 different incidents every week in very different cities of Pakistan. Don't you think that it is quite possible that some of those who are killed in such daily occurrences might have had a different view (if they had the chance to revisit your contention after the event) on whether they were lucky or unlucky to have ended up in the supposedly safer country ofPakistan.



It is quiet boring to listen to Indians telling me about getting killed in my cities. In last 60+ years only past decade has been so and that too because of foreign funded terrorists who are being taken care off. 

I wonder where i would be if my state government and my CM and police chief was hell bent on killing me and my family. Damn sounds scary to me. 



sachair27 said:


> talk about your government....importing chinese army personnels to quiet'n the voices of freedom in gilgit and baltistan...



You just cant help yourself my friend. Freedom movement in Gilgir Baltistan 



> quite strange i'll have to agree with you partly though...these people are not violent...but misguided and brainwashed they are...and yes to a certain extent self-destructive as well...the point is that they want freedom from india.*the fact is that they don't understand they the moment they get this so called azadi they are sure to be gobbled up by sino pakistan duo....*
> talking about undemocratic ways of the indians in kashmir doesnt really suite you....you first really need to talk about the undemocratic systems in so called azad kashmir....azad my foot...they dont even get to decide what they can do over there..it is all decided by a minister from pakistan...so that area is anything but azad...
> as far as* indian army's religious composition is concerned it has never been a religious army...those are soldiers and not religious fanatics...n btw where did u find that 99&#37; statistics..indian army hasnt allowed religious profiling of it personnels yet..*
> believe me im equally happy that you people got away from us....otherwise you could have brought the same ruin to us as u people have brought to urselves...as far as mumbai is concerned the man who started it all is sitting pretty in pakistan enjoying immunity by ur government...
> n dude we dont need our lessons in democracy and secularism from you coz your country is anything but those....



Let them decide their fate as i have said before don't need to be their daddy. 

The Muslim head count in Indian army is scrutinized by several several independent sources. Google yourself. 

We are more than happy that we are not part of a system where the system itself kills the minorities. 


I have no interest in your democracy. The only point is that you comfortably do not apply your democratic principles in Kashmir and still claim to be worlds biggest democracy. This is called hypocrisy. use a dictionary. 

You guys wont be able to come with a sane argument when it comes to Kashmir. The reality is that the status of 700,000 Indian army is that of an occupying force and Kashmir is disputed territory with no international border. 

You please don't talk about Azad kashmir. You wont see more anti-Indian population anywhere. We are not doing a single thing there that could be interpreted as we are occupying it. 

You people are making yourself look like fools talking about Gilgit and Azad Kashmir. Go check the protests, deaths and human rights violation and the $$ you put in Kashmir to occupy it and the size of your army. Truth is bitter.


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## BATMAN




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## lionheart1

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> ''Ya'' well Pakistan IS a country; despite all odds, and despite a very rough beginning. That in itself is a testament. Our victory was your (hindustany) failure starting in 1947.
> 
> therefore I dont know what you're talking about
> 
> 
> the best advice i can give to you and your people is that you should prepare yourselves on HOW to deal with an independent Kashmir; which is inevitable. If not in my lifetime, perhaps in that of my children. Inshallah.


take kashmir who is stopping you. no guts to fight a war
pakistan will be erased from the face of earth no one can stop from happening it,

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## Jackdaws

Close this thread please - it's becoming a circular argument...

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## TextMiner

Asim Aquil said:


> "Ghulami main khush hain, abhi doosron ki
> Ke rehtay hain jannat main, woh ahmakon ki".



You know, A long time ago, i too read a poem but which was exactly a vitriolic criticism of Pakistani people (the elected leaders in particular).


> yeh galyoun ke aawara baikaar kuttay,
> ke bakhsha gaya jin ko zouq-e-gadai,
> zamanay ki phitkaar sarmaya unka,
> jahaan bhar ki dhutkaar inn ki kamaai
> 
> na araam shab ko, na rahat sawairay
> ghalazat mei ghar, naaliyoun mei basairay
> jo bigrhain tou ikk doosray se larhadou
> zara aik roti ka tukrha dikha dou
> yeh harr aik ki thokrain khaanay walay
> yeh faaqoun se uktaa ke marr janay walay
> 
> yeh mazloom makhlooque garr sarr uthaey
> tou insaan sabb sarr-kashi bhool jaey
> yeh chahein tou dunya ko apna banalein
> yeh aaqaoun ki haddiyan takk chabalein
> koi inko ehsas-e-zillat dila de
> koi inki soui hui dumm hilaa de...



And the Kashmiris would rather live with Kutteys than Bhookey-Nange !!! Strange Logic !!!

The Kashmiris, heck even the Pakistanis are yet to decide whether the Kashmiris want to live with Bhooke Nangey ya Faiz Ahmed Faiz ke Kuttey !!!

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## Coltsfan

BATMAN said:


>



Great job Rapid Action Force!!!

Thanks for the posting the pic Batman


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Un slamed india for using UN stamped helmets in IOK!And violating human rights killing,stealing,kidnapping etc.

Great.


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## Coltsfan

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Un slamed india for using UN stamped helmets in IOK!And violating human rights killing,stealing,kidnapping etc.
> 
> Great.



These are the RAF, Rapid Action Force troops. 

Check out the helmet of the troops in the back

Someone has done a horrible job of photoshop it seems

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## Patriot

Coltsfan said:


> These are the RAF, Rapid Action Force troops.
> 
> Check out the helmet of the troops in the back
> 
> Someone has done a horrible job of photoshop it seems


Yes you are correct this is RAF But picture is not photo shopped.RAF used UN helmets even though they were operating in Kashmir (Complete Violation of UN Rules)
UN Orders Indian Army to Stop Using UN Helmets
Since a visit to Kashmir by Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh June 7, the colonized country run with the iron fist of 700,000 paramilitary goons and a puppet government in Srinagar has been under a virtual lockdown, with day-long curfews and frequent shutdowns of power and water. Businesses have been unable to operate, schools have closed, and the hospitals have become burdened with thousands of young men suffering gunshot wounds with no access to medical supplies. This isn't the first time, of course. Kashmir has been the scene of periodic fighting between local residents, often accused of being Pakistani terrorists, and the Indian mercenary squads, since UN resolutions and the promise of independence made to them by India in 1949 were ignored. It has gone on this long because the rest of the world has ignored the plight of these people, succumbing to mainstream media propaganda about Pakistani terrorists crossing the Line of Control which divides Pakistani controlled Kashmir with the Indian side.

This time the population seems to be serious. During the past two months street protests over repeated killings of unarmed citizens, mostly young teenagers, has

erupted into what could be a full-blown revolution, with demands being made for complete freedom from both Indian and Pakistani rule. 
Rapid Action Forces of the Indian paramilitary army, known as the CRPF, march in Srinagar, the capital of Kashmir this past weekend, many conspicuously wearing the helmets of the UN. Source of Photo Greater Kashmir GreaterKashmir Daily English Newspaper from Kashmir Srinagar, Kashmiri, Kashmir news Kashmir Discussion Forum,Srinagar,Latest News from kashmir, Lastupdate:- Thu, 9 Sep 2010 18:30:00 GMT.

This past weekend, a special ops wing of the paramilitary forces known as the Rapid Action Force, numbering approximately 2,000 troops, were brought in by local authorities in an attempt to quell the uprising. Immediately, I started receiving questions from several people about the fact that these troops were seen wearing UN helmets. It raised serious questions about UN complicity in the killings and other violence that has been perpetrated against civilians.

On Monday I sent the following letter to a representative at the United Nations:



Sent: Mon 8/9/2010 2:16 PM
Nick Birnback
Chief, Public Affairs Section
Department of Peacekeeping Operations
United Nations

Mr. Birnback:

It's my understanding that you may oversee matters pertaining to international human rights issues, and I would like to know if you have been informed of the problems in Kashmir, the nature of the uprising there, the level of violence, the casualties, and the grave nature of humanitarian conditions after weeks of curfews and a complete shutdown of normal services to the community from health to water to electricity. I've been informed by sources that there does not seem to be an observable UN presence for UN-OCHA. 

Paradoxically, there is an observable presence of UN helmets being worn by the CRPF's Rapid Action Forces currently being deployed in Kashmir. See photo below. Widespread belief is that the UN endorses India's behavior, and allows this image of UN participation to prevail as an internationally acceptable level of the use of force against unarmed civilians. Can you advise us on the position taken by the UN on all these matters?

Best wishes,
Paul Barrow
Director of Policy and Communications
United Progressives
44 Music Square East
#702
Nashville, TN 37203

Mr. Birnback's response below gives the unmistakable impression that the Peacekeeping office, which directly oversees operations such as the unit in Kashmir, is completely in the dark about the Indian army's use of these helmets.

Sent Mon 8/10/2010 2:50 PM
Mr. Barrow,
Thanks for your email. While I'm not on the human rights side per say, my folks are looking into this and I will have something for you by close of business (New York time) on Tuesday.
Regards,
Nick


Sent: Tue 8/10/2010 1:56 PM
Mr. Barrow,

In answer to your query, please find details below.

Following the use of UN-marked blue helmets by Indian Rapid Action Force (RAF) personnel in Srinagar, the United Nations Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP) immediately brought the issue to the attention of the Indian Army authorities. We understand that directions have since been issued by the Indian authorities to prevent the continued use of UN helmets and shields by the Rapid Action Force.

UN blue helmets and other UN equipment are provided to personnel serving in United Nations operations for the sole purpose of use during service under the blue flag. All UN equipment provided for use in a UN operation ought to be returned to the Organization upon completion of service and under no circumstances, can it be used for other purposes, including by national armies in the conduct of their operations.

In accordance with Security Council resolution 307 (1971), UNMOGIP is deployed to the region to monitor the cease-fire along the Line of Control, investigate alleged violations, and report to the Secretary-General on violations and relevant developments in its area of operations.

Feel free to contact us for any further details.

Regards,

Michel Bonnardeaux
Public Affairs Officer
United Nations
DPKO/OUSG
DC1-1538
New York, NY 10017, USA

The current strength of military observers numbers 44, with 23 international civilian personnel and 48 local civilian staff. Those figures are from the UN website and dated June 30, 2010. Military personnel are from the countries of Chile, Croatia, Finland, Italy, Philippines, Republic of Korea, Sweden and Uruguay, and spend six months alternately on either side of the Line of Control. Currently, they are on the Pakistan side.
I have followed up Michel's email with a telephone call looking into this further in the hopes of understanding what recourse the UN might have if India ignores the demands of the UN. I received a voicemail response, so I will probably not know anything further about it today. I'm also hoping yet to hear from UN-OCHA, the department at the UN that handles Humanitarian Affairs.

Paul Barrow is Director of Policy and Communcations for United Progressives

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## Coltsfan

Alright, it does appear that some RAF forces used the UN helmet, which was inappropriate.

But I believe that was in August, hopefully they back in RAF helmets and focusing on getting the job done.


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## JanjaWeed

civfanatic said:


> It might have been better if you read a lil bit of Indian history first .Tamil Nadu had a very significant sepratist movement in 50s and early 60s . The DMK was strongly anti Brahman ,anti north and anti Aryan .They viewed southern brahminsand north Indians as aryans and south Indians as dravidians . After Independence They increasingly used language instead of race as seccesionist planck. Infact current patriach of DMK (Karunanidhi ) was also associated with this movement .However After compulsory introduction of hindi as national language was stopped the sepratism began to wane ...some other factors like electoral success and 16th constitutional ammendment was also responsible .
> The sepratism might have died down but that does not mean that there was no sepratism but I was amazed that in 7 pages none of Indian members even hinted about this . I can only draw two conclusions from this either indian members are woefully ignorant of thier history or they want to gloss over some aspects of that history .



my friend it's not me who needs to read history.. i think its you who need a bit of reality check.. i'm neither from 50s nor from 60s.. in my life time i have never come across any tamil seperatist movement. when was the last time you heard tamil's agitating for a seperate homeland?? when was the last time tamils got out on the street with violent protests?? deffinetly not on 80s not on 90s or in this decade. all the above political parties you mentioned or leaders, have been or are active part of indian national governments & are operating under constituation of india. there were lot many seperatist movements throughout the world in the distant past & it doesn't mean that they are still in existance. today there is not even a single significant tamil seperatist movement within india. so let's stop living in the fantasy by clinging onto the so called seperatist movement which has happened half a century ago & died it's natural death. people are happily part of india. i'm sorry that i have burst your bubble here..


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## NWO

So, what is the story behind this footage? I mean, surely something has developed, and the government is just delaying its release or something.


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## sachair27

riju78 said:


> u talk abt HINDU majority!
> but the prime minister is sikh, J&K CM is muslim and defence minister of india is Christian... these are the people who makes the decisions my friend...



buddy that would be hard for people from a state religion country to understand......u r asking for toooooooo much


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## sachair27

rafay321 said:


> Nice showcase you have got there. Just like your country wasted no time to install Abdul Kalam as president to save its secular image after the Muslim massacre. Your force is occupying Kashmir's land and we are sleeping?
> 
> 
> 
> its atleast our own army occupying our own area....u have to import the chinese army to do that for you in gilgit n baltistan...


----------



## sachair27

Asim Aquil said:


> The Kashmiri shoes and sticks are doing a better job and thrashing Indian security forces, our support is always ready whenever the Kashmiris would ask for it.



it would be better if you shower a bit of that support to the people of pak occupied kashmir...for a change pakistanis are sharing love


----------



## Peshwa

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> *''Ya'' well Pakistan IS a country; despite all odds, and despite a very rough beginning. That in itself is a testament. Our victory was your (hindustany) failure starting in 1947.*
> therefore I dont know what you're talking about
> 
> 
> the best advice i can give to you and your people is that you should prepare yourselves on HOW to deal with an independent Kashmir; which is inevitable. If not in my lifetime, perhaps in that of my children. Inshallah.



Well looking at the current "haalaat".....more like a boon in disguise (for India of course)....

But then again....we all cant be ostriches now can we?


----------



## sachair27

rafay321 said:


> Nice showcase you have got there. Just like your country wasted no time to install Abdul Kalam as president to save its secular image after the Muslim massacre. Your force is occupying Kashmir's land and we are sleeping?
> 
> 
> 
> You just cant help yourself my friend. Freedom movement in Gilgir Baltistan
> 
> 
> 
> PICK YOUR SELF UP TUCK YOUR TEETH IN AND READ IF U CAN..."MY FRIEND"...btw for your convenience i have highlighted a few lines...that will give you the idea about your good administration in *** or AK as you like to call it..
> 
> China's Discreet Hold on Pakistan's Northern Borderlands
> By SELIG S. HARRISON
> Published: August 26, 2010
> 
> *While the world focuses on the flood-ravaged Indus River valley, a quiet geopolitical crisis is unfolding in the Himalayan borderlands of northern Pakistan, where Islamabad is handing over de facto control of the strategic Gilgit-Baltistan region in the northwest corner of disputed Kashmir to China.*
> 
> The entire western portion of Kashmir stretching from Gilgit in the north to Azad (Free) Kashmir in the south is closed to the world, in contrast to the media access that India permits in the eastern part, where it is combating a Pakistan-backed insurgency. But reports from a variety of foreign intelligence sources, Pakistani journalists and Pakistani human rights workers reveal two important new developments in Gilgit-Baltistan: a simmering rebellion against Pakistani rule and the influx of an estimated 7,000 to 11,000 soldiers of the People&#8217;s Liberation Army.
> 
> China wants a grip on the region to assure unfettered road and rail access to the Gulf through Pakistan. It takes 16 to 25 days for Chinese oil tankers to reach the Gulf. When high-speed rail and road links through Gilgit and Baltistan are completed, China will be able to transport cargo from Eastern China to the new Chinese-built Pakistani naval bases at Gwadar, Pasni and Ormara, just east of the Gulf, within 48 hours.
> 
> Many of the P.L.A. soldiers entering Gilgit-Baltistan are expected to work on the railroad. Some are extending the Karakoram Highway, built to link China&#8217;s Sinkiang Province with Pakistan. Others are working on dams, expressways and other projects.
> 
> Mystery surrounds the construction of 22 tunnels in secret locations where Pakistanis are barred. Tunnels would be necessary for a projected gas pipeline from Iran to China that would cross the Himalayas through Gilgit. But they could also be used for missile storage sites.
> 
> Until recently, the P.L.A. construction crews lived in temporary encampments and went home after completing their assignments. Now they are building big residential enclaves clearly designed for a long-term presence.
> 
> What is happening in the region matters to Washington for two reasons. Coupled with its support for the Taliban, Islamabad&#8217;s collusion in facilitating China&#8217;s access to the Gulf makes clear that Pakistan is not a U.S. &#8220;ally.&#8221; Equally important, the nascent revolt in the Gilgit-Baltistan region is a reminder that Kashmiri demands for autonomy on both sides of the cease-fire line would have to be addressed in a settlement.
> 
> *Media attention has exposed the repression of the insurgency in the Indian-ruled Kashmir Valley. But if reporters could get into the Gilgit-Baltistan region and Azad Kashmir, they would find widespread, brutally-suppressed local movements for democratic rights and regional autonomy.*
> 
> When the British partitioned South Asia in 1947, the maharajah who ruled Kashmir, including Gilgit and Baltistan, acceded to India. This set off intermittent conflict that ended with Indian control of the Kashmir Valley, t*he establishment of Pakistan-sponsored Free Kashmir in western Kashmir, and Pakistan&#8217;s occupation of Gilgit and Baltistan, where Sunni jihadi groups allied with the Pakistan Army have systematically terrorized the local Shiite Muslims.*
> 
> *Gilgit and Baltistan are in effect under military rule. Democratic activists there want a legislature and other institutions without restrictions like the ones imposed on Free Kashmir, where the elected legislature controls only 4 out of 56 subjects covered in the state constitution. The rest are under the jurisdiction of a &#8220;Kashmir Council&#8221; appointed by the president of Pakistan.*
> 
> India gives more power to the state government in Srinagar; elections there are widely regarded as fair, and open discussion of demands for autonomy is permitted. But the Pakistan-abetted insurgency in the Kashmir Valley has added to tensions between Indian occupation forces and an assertive population seeking greater of local autonomy.
> 
> The United States is uniquely situated to play a moderating role in Kashmir, given its growing economic and military ties with India and Pakistan&#8217;s aid dependence on Washington. Such a role should be limited to quiet diplomacy. Washington should press New Delhi to resume autonomy negotiations with Kashmiri separatists. Success would put pressure on Islamabad for comparable concessions in Free Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan. In Pakistan, Washington should focus on getting Islamabad to stop aiding the insurgency in the Kashmir Valley and to give New Delhi a formal commitment that it will not annex Gilgit and Baltistan.
> 
> Precisely because the Gilgit-Baltistan region is so important to China, the United States, India and Pakistan should work together to make sure that it is not overwhelmed, like Tibet, by the Chinese behemoth.
> 
> Selig S. Harrison is director of the Asia Program at the Center for International Policy and a former South Asia bureau chief of The Washington Post.
> 
> 
> SPREADING PROPAGANDA IS ONE THING BUT TO START BELIEVING IN THE SAME IS ALL OUT BLINDNESS....
> 
> guess who is having the last laugh...now stop talking about others n see whats going on in your own backyard...n try to ask your govt. some questions...if they have any idea about democracy they will answer you...
> talking about secularism???you cant even keep your own shia muslims safe n u r talking about muslims in india...thats height of secularism...good going sire...keep it up n few years later india wouldn't have to worry about pakistan..


----------



## Xeric

No names.

Some indians here are fighting for proving how _baysta_ type personalities they actually are.

:Hint: The guy's an expat.

No names


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## Coltsfan

xeric said:


> No names.
> 
> Some indians here are fighting for proving how _baysta_ type personalities they actually are.
> 
> :Hint: The guy's an expat.
> 
> *No names*



Scared are we?

BTW, what does baysta mean anyways? anyone?


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## Desert Fox

This is so f***ed up, i couldn't believe what i was seeing, they disgraced and humiliated those boys out in the open for everyone to see! Shame on india and shame on their barbaric army!

InshaAllah Kashmiris will gain their independence soon!


----------



## Paan Singh

SilentNinja said:


> This is so f***ed up, i couldn't believe what i was seeing, they disgraced and humiliated those boys out in the open for everyone to see! Shame on india and shame on their barbaric army!
> 
> InshaAllah Kashmiris will gain their independence soon!



without knowing abt originality of this video,u start to rant.


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## Desert Fox

Prism said:


> without knowing abt originality of this video,u start to rant.



its no secret what your army does in Kashmir, even if this video is fake there are still other horrible incidents and acts of cruelty done to the Kashmiris at the hands of your army!


----------



## Paan Singh

SilentNinja said:


> its no secret what your army does in Kashmir, even if this video is fake there are still other horrible incidents and acts of cruelty done to the Kashmiris at the hands of your army!



i think i was talking abt this video,and u admit that


> even if this video is fake


so stick to the topic and this video.


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## Desert Fox

Prism said:


> i think i was talking abt this video,*and u admit that *
> so stick to the topic and this video.



Since when did i admit that this video is fake? I said *even if* its fake (key words EVEN and IF). i think you can't comprehend to simple English!


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## Paan Singh

SilentNinja said:


> Since when did i admit that this video is fake? I said *even if* its fake (key words EVEN and IF). i think you can't comprehend to simple English!



man i was also talking abt *if* word ,u dont understand wat is if,let me tell u,it means *un surety!!!!!!!!!*.so u said "if ",i answered according to this.


----------



## Desert Fox

Prism said:


> man i was also talking abt *if* word ,u



No you were not talking about the IF word, you said that i *admitted*:

below is you previous post where you said *i admitted*
V
V
V


Prism said:


> i think i was talking abt this video,*and u admit that *
> so stick to the topic and this video.





i never admitted so perhaps you should be more precise about what your talking about next time!





Prism said:


> u dont understand wat is if,*let me tell u*,it means *un surety!!!!!!!!!*.so u said "if ",i answered according to this.



I don't need someone like you who can't comprehend to simple English and can't even be precise in what your saying to tell me anything 

anyways i'm done here, there's no point in debating with you, its a waste of time!


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

vandemataram said:


> Syed Ali Shah Geelani needs to be castrated and shot and the episode needs to be filmed and shown to the world and archived for later generations..
> 
> my two cents



keep those coins kiddo....you may need them later on

your words of ''wisdom'' reflect the mentality of a lot of chest-thumping hindustanys

dont you already learn the results of what happens when you even place him under house arrest?

so if you carry out what you ''prescribed'' you'd be digging yourself into an even deeper pile of cow dung


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Peshwa said:


> But then again....we all cant be ostriches now can we?



keep it up and you'll be ''dodo bird'' soon


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## Peshwa

Lemme just start by saying that this is a completely deplorable act and those responsible need to be brought to justice.....

However, the question that comes to mind.....

Which part of the video shows that this incident happened in Kashmir?
Couldnt this be in Himachal or Uttaranchal? How are we so sure this is Kashmir?

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## Peshwa

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> keep it up and you'll be ''dodo bird'' soon



Of course I am glad that thanks to Partition, the problem of terrorism that your country faces on daily basis is purely a Pakistani problem.....which otherwise would have been an Indian problem!

You consider partition a victory....I consider it a boon in disguise....depends on which side of the fence u live on....

Did I hit a nerve Mr.TT? 

No Sh!t you want me to be extinct..... 
No need to personally attack me tho......

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## Donatello

Peshwa said:


> Lemme just start by saying that this is a completely deplorable act and those responsible need to be brought to justice.....
> 
> However, the question that comes to mind.....
> 
> Which part of the video shows that this incident happened in Kashmir?
> Couldnt this be in *Himachal* or *Uttaranchal*? How are we so sure this is Kashmir?




Man,

Those are Indian states as well, in any case the topic is about over all picture of India. You just added more fuel to the fire...


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## Coltsfan

penumbra said:


> Man,
> 
> Those are Indian states as well, in any case the topic is about over all picture of India. You just added more fuel to the fire...



Exactly, I totally agree with it. It is an Indian issue and Indian authorities will deal with it.

No need for outsiders to pretend to be caring and compassionate, they should instead focus on terrorism and mob lynching in their backyards.

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## Peshwa

penumbra said:


> Man,
> 
> Those are Indian states as well, in any case the topic is about over all picture of India. You just added more fuel to the fire...



I have already voiced my opinion on the subject.....Im not at all happy at the incident....

Nevertheless.....the title of the thread needs to change (It specifies Kashmir... which cannot be authenticated) to reflect reality and make sure that no double standards are used....

Secondly....It becomes an internal Indian issue on the lines of the Sialkot beating and you people can drop the "Kashmir atrocity" bogey


----------



## Malik Usman

bandit said:


> Why is it so hard for some to accept the fact that Indian Muslims have a decent life in a hindu majority country, and that they choose their country over some non-existent cause of religion. Their is no appeasement going on, Muslims fight for their causes and rights if they feel wronged. It is because they have accepted their country first that they are progressing. For everybody in India, country comes first.
> 
> They do not need to be deserve to be looked down upon as inferiors because somebody claims to be a better Muslim. That they rejected the flawed concept of countries for religions, doesn't make them irreligious.




Are u forgetting the Gujjrat (Muslim Killings), Babri Mosque and resently your Indian Actress (Shabana Uzmi) said on the media that she was not allowed to purchase a Flat in Mumbai just because she was muslim, the Related department refused to her.


----------



## Coltsfan

Malik Usman said:


> Are u forgetting the Gujjrat (Muslim Killings), Babri Mosque and resently your Indian Actress (Shabana Uzmi) said on the media that she was not allowed to purchase a Flat in Mumbai just because she was muslim, the Related department refused to her.



63 years of 150+ million Muslims living in India and you pick Shabana Azmi to highlight their so called discrimination?

Tell me friend, how many mosques have been destroyed in Pakistan and how many Muslims have been killed?

About time Pakistan focuses on their internal problems (terrorism, floods, financial bankruptcy etc.) and not on the fictional atrocities faced by Indian Muslims.

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## x_man

ambidex said:


> The *People shown in videos are all wearing different uniforms* one is wearing a different color flap cap and non of them is wearing CRPF uniform.



Good to have you here Sir . So you think they all wear differnt uniforms so they cant be from the police etc. Lets go for a walk in the streets of kashmir and meet few Police walas. They might surprise you. 

*2 guys : Different uniforms*








*4 guys: Totally different uniforms*








ambidex said:


> One guy wearing a cameo uniform is again not InA uniform.



Who are these guys then ? 







*Many guys : Not a single uniform matches with other person*



I hope I not boring you with our walk. Just bear with me, I will take only few more minutes. 




ambidex said:


> One of the J&K police look alike guy is wearing belt over his jumper and shirt is out of the pant which is again not J&K police.









*4 Police walas : Not one uniform matches with the other persons uniform.* 

Oh BTW I also see one with belt wearing over his jumper. 




ambidex said:


> Also J&K police has *big red shoulder tag* on each dark green jumper which is not visible.




Neither do I see in any of the above pictures despite all pics from J&K police. Did you see any red tags on the shoulders of anyone ?? 




ambidex said:


> Thats another propaganda.



Yeh of course. Dream on.

The whole world is against J&K police: such a lovely bunch of people. 

BTW I haven&#8217;t seen such a huge variety and self improvised mix&match of uniform in a single force.

I guess it is called *UNIFORM *for a reason.

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## StingRoy

Malik Usman said:


> Are u forgetting the Gujjrat (Muslim Killings), Babri Mosque and resently your Indian Actress (Shabana Uzmi) said on the media that she was not allowed to purchase a Flat in Mumbai just because she was muslim, the Related department refused to her.



Dude... do you even consider how many non-Muslims are killed during the riots? I have seen people talk about muslims being massacred... but no one mentions anything about non-Muslims ... (note that I am using non-Muslims here because the aam janta gets caught in such sectarian acts). 
Now what Shabana Azmi says is entirely her opinion and her experience with a particular builder.... nothing to generalize for the masses... remember there are more Muslims in India than in Pakistan and they are all living amongst us... inside our society... so definitely they are all finding some place to stay isn't it... not like they being denied a place just because they are in minority...


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## StingRoy

rafay321 said:


> Who are you to decide that they are violent, directionless, self-destructive and brainwashed? Just because they don't want to be with you?
> .....
> Talk about yourself and your sanity. You have no right to judge others as destructive, insane and directionless. Let them speak for themselves. Aren't they already?



Who are you to decide that they don't want to be with us?... Are you speaking for all the people in Kashmir or those who are on the streets pelting stones on the security forces and destroying the very infrastructure which is setup for their own development? ... The solution is not that simple which can be resolved by demonstrating violently on the streets... the only solution is to sit down and discuss the various possible solutions which have been discussed at length in other threads... 

The govt is willing to discuss the issue with the people... but someone should first stop violence and then approach on talks with the govt... is 63 years enough to forget how we got our independence from the Britishers?... Did we forget how the world still respects the tenets of non-violence preached by Gandhiji?....

Now tell me who is the sane one?


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## Imran Khan

bus ker do yaro or kitna khoon bahy ga.............


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## bandit

Malik Usman said:


> Are u forgetting the Gujjrat (Muslim Killings), Babri Mosque and resently your Indian Actress (Shabana Uzmi) said on the media that she was not allowed to purchase a Flat in Mumbai just because she was muslim, the Related department refused to her.



As I said before, if killings are going to be the yardstick by which you want to decide which side of the line muslims are better on, it is undoubtedly India and not Pakistan. I could pull up some numbers for you but I am in class so you will have to do that yourself.

Shabana Azmi was not refused a flat by some department, it was by the individual private owners society and they were well within their rights to do so, get your facts right and then come spout here.


----------



## ps80

news.outlookindia.com | J&K Cops to Sue Facebook, Youtube

*J&K Cops to Sue Facebook, Youtube*

Police today said it will register a case against two prominent social networking sites for uploading of a three-minute video (3:07 mts) purportedly showing four youths being forced to parade naked, apparently by some uniformed personnel at an undisclosed location (some reports name the Sopore area) in Kashmir

"A formal case is being registered against the YouTube and Facebook networks and investigation is on to locate the persons responsible for uploading this baseless and malicious clip," a police spokesman told PTI.

He said police have taken cognisance of the video clip and initial investigations have shown that the video has not been verified as yet and therefore "to attribute it to security forces with the intention of maligning them and spreading disaffection among the people is highly regrettable.

"Action shall also be taken against other organisations who tried to propagate it," he added.

"No one has been able to authenticate the video so far," Home Minister P Chidambaram told reporters in New Delhi while replying to a question on the three-minute video clip uploaded on two prominent social networking sites.

The minister said he had asked security agencies to find out whether anybody featuring in the video had spoken out.

"Until it is authenticated and the persons identified, I think it would be unsafe to rely on such a video," he said.

He did not elaborate on what steps were being taken to ascertain the authenticity of the video. Shockingly, there seemed to be no condemnation of the incident shown on the video from any official quarters, even with caveats that its provenance remained to be established. Nor was any seriousness shown to get to the bottom of the controversial incident pictured.

Is the video genuine?

The video shows four unidentified Kashmiri-looking youngsters being made to parade through what looks like a village, sometimes passing by others, with a male voice in the background constantly abusing in Hindi/Urdu and Kashmiri in the backdrop. 

A male voice asks the youth to remove the clothes they are carrying from their private parts. Another voice asks the person recording the sequence to record from the front.

The video is taken by the accompanying policeman, who records the event during their short journey...he must have recorded it for fun, but luckily it got leaked by an anonymous person, the comment accompanying the video in one of its postings on the Facebook account Citizens of Kashmir claimed.

A senior police officer in the Valley pointed out that it looked like an 'old video' because it appeared to have been shot in autumn and not during the recent protests because the fields seem harvested.

The Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) also questioned the videos authenticity. Such a thing is not possible in Kashmir, CRPF spokesman Prabhakar Tripathi was quoted by the Indian Express as saying. The video seems manipulated to tarnish the image of the force and police.

Tripathi said it was hard to imagine how such an incident, if it had happened, could remain under wraps so long. In this place, even **** doesnt remain a secret, he said. This video can never be proved to be genuine.

While the men in uniforms are clearly not of the Army, and seem to be wearing the uniform of the J&K Police, the video had earlier done the rounds of Youtube, Facebook and some mailing lists accompanied by such labels as:

* Indian Army torturing Kashmiri youth for a naked parade.
* So Called Disciplined Indian Army Exposes their Shameful Act on Camera in Kashmir
* Indian Army's Shameful Conduct
* "Kashmir's Abu Gharib" [For the infamous Iraqi prison Abu Ghraib]

The above, say the authorities, lends credence to their apprehensions that it could be part of an attempt at disinformation, timed as it was just ahead of Friday's crucial Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) meeting in New Delhi amidst demands for amendments in the controversial Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) or its withdrawal from at least some of the districts of the state.

Despite apparent government coercion which seemed to have ensured that the video was taken off within a short span of being posted, the video continued to be re-posted on various Facebook walls, and new links for Youtube posts continued to shared on Twitter by outraged Kashmiri youth and has evoked outrage, shock and condemnation from the Facebook users across the globe.


----------



## bandit

> While the men in uniforms are clearly not of the Army, and seem to be wearing the uniform of the J&K Police, the video had earlier done the rounds of Youtube, Facebook and some mailing lists accompanied by such labels as:



Told ya so...was'nt the devils...just local Kashmiri police


----------



## sab

civfanatic said:


> It might have been better if you read a lil bit of Indian history first .Tamil Nadu had a very significant sepratist movement in 50s and early 60s . The DMK was strongly anti Brahman ,anti north and anti Aryan .They viewed southern brahminsand north Indians as aryans and south Indians as dravidians . After Independence They increasingly used language instead of race as seccesionist planck. Infact current patriach of DMK (Karunanidhi ) was also associated with this movement .However After compulsory introduction of hindi as national language was stopped the sepratism began to wane ...some other factors like electoral success and 16th constitutional ammendment was also responsible .
> The sepratism might have died down but that does not mean that there was no sepratism but I was amazed that in 7 pages none of Indian members even hinted about this . I can only draw two conclusions from this either indian members are woefully ignorant of thier history or they want to gloss over some aspects of that history .


You could assume....that Indians prefer to look at the future....instead digging some idea that have been dumped half a century ago....


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## foxbat

somebozo said:


> Never underestimate the power of people..Russia once also saw itself invicible and took pride on the "soviet" indentity. Indian ideas of nationalism also reel from same legacy and there is a possibility no matter how little of them meeting the same fate!



Power of people..?? Please dont forget that India has had govts thru the power of people only for last 60+ years. Something that can not be said about most of our neighbours.

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## muse

> After Independence They increasingly used language instead of race as seccesionist planck



Does this explain why South Indians seem not to be able to speak Urdu or Hindi?


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## civfanatic

StreetHawk said:


> my friend it's not me who needs to read history.. i think its you who need a bit of reality check.. i'm neither from 50s nor from 60s.. in my life time i have never come across any tamil seperatist movement. when was the last time you heard tamil's agitating for a seperate homeland?? when was the last time tamils got out on the street with violent protests?? deffinetly not on 80s not on 90s or in this decade. all the above political parties you mentioned or leaders, have been or are active part of indian national governments & are operating under constituation of india. there were lot many seperatist movements throughout the world in the distant past & it doesn't mean that they are still in existance. today there is not even a single significant tamil seperatist movement within india. so let's stop living in the fantasy by clinging onto the so called seperatist movement which has happened half a century ago & died it's natural death. people are happily part of india. i'm sorry that i have burst your bubble here..



If you had read my post carefully you would have seen that I mentioned that the Tamil separatism died out . Whether that would raise its head in future is a speculation and yours is as good as mine . My post was reality check to the mocking attitude adopted by Indian members who said that they had never heard of Tamil separatism.I pointed that rather than revealing anything else it reveals their lack of knowledge of their countries current history . It is strange that you think that you burst some kind of bubble ...It suggests your inability to comprehend simple English .


----------



## gowthamraj

true_indian said:


> Can somebody explain Tamil movement in India. This is the first time I am hearing about it. Did something happen in last 5 years while I was away? Does Tamilnadu wants separation from India?



 there was an automous request in 1980s. But now the person who request is our chief minister 
then yenega na avinga dubakura ellam nambi question kekaringa


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## gowthamraj

civfanatic said:


> If you had read my post carefully you would have seen that I mentioned that the Tamil separatism died out . Whether that would raise its head in future is a speculation and yours is as good as mine . My post was reality check to the mocking attitude adopted by Indian members who said that they had never heard of Tamil separatism.I pointed that rather than revealing anything else it reveals their lack of knowledge of their countries current history . It is strange that you think that you burst some kind of bubble ...It suggests your inability to comprehend simple English .



I agree with you. The basic thing that make some to demand seperate tamil homeland are 1. India's support to sri lanka against tamil's and compulsory insert of Hindi language as official which is against our communites. 


But in current or in future these situation cant arise in my opinion


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## nForce

muse said:


> Does this explain why South Indians seem not to be able to speak Urdu or Hindi?



No it doesnt...

Languages like Hindi,Marathi,Bengali etc somewhat match with each other.In many cases the words mean the very same thing..Its just a matter of common ancestory..But languages spoken in South India,Tamil,Telugu,Kannada and Malayalam differ from Hindi owing to different origin.

Thats why,sometimes its easy for a Bengali or a Marathi to speak in Hindi but a bit difficult for a South Indian.

But,I have many South Indian friends back from my college and my office.It just takes them 3-4 months and they can too speak in Hindi.

p.s. I am personally learning Malayalam from a friend of mine.Got inspired by Mohan lal I suppose.

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## muse

So what does? How come they don't speak urdu or hindi, everybody else does.


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## Coltsfan

muse said:


> So what does? How come they don't speak urdu or hindi, everybody else does.



Incorrect statement


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## nForce

muse said:


> So what does? How come they don't speak urdu or hindi, everybody else does.



Wrong assumption.Everybody don't speak Hindi or Urdu in India.Hindi is obviously the most spoken language in India.But that does not count everybody.

Refer to my previous post.

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## Bang Galore

Malik Usman said:


> Are u forgetting the Gujjrat (Muslim Killings), Babri Mosque and resently your Indian Actress (Shabana Uzmi) said on the media that she was not allowed to purchase a Flat in Mumbai just because she was muslim, *the Related department refused to her.*



What related department? Get your facts right. No official department can openly discriminate. These were private individuals refusing to sell their properties.



muse said:


> So what does? How come they don't speak urdu or hindi, everybody else does.



You are insisting on reinforcing ignorance. Who is/are everybody else? And why do you think that the South Indians *should* know/speak Hindi /Urdu ?

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## trident2010

BENNY said:


> Isn't it better to start a separate thread for state-wise introduction rather than doing it in a thread which is unrelated???



No, it not about statewise introduction. It is attempt to show some delusional people who never lived in democratic, secular country, who never seen the rising sun after a dark night and who always think everyone in India is divided like themselves. That from whereever we come from , we were, are and will always be an Indian.

Kashmir to Kanyakumari India is ONE !!


*Phool Hai Anek Kintu Mala Phir Ek Hai .. *

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## footmarks

I dont support the Idea of a single language for all in a country like India. Though I am from North India (Uttarakhand) and speak Hindi (Traditionally Kumauni dialect, which is way too different from Hindi, but still related) , I dont see any reason why everybody should learn it forcefully. We live in an open society, people should themselves decide what language they want to speak. Its a mode of communication, so north Indians living in South India gradually learn south Indian languages and vice versa for south Indians living in North.

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## true_indian

footmarks said:


> I dont support the Idea of a single language for all in a country like India. Though I am from North India (Uttarakhand) and speak Hindi (Traditionally Kumauni dialect, which is way too different from Hindi, but still related) , I dont see any reason why everybody should learn it forcefully. We live in an open society, people should themselves decide what language they want to speak. Its a mode of communication, so north Indians living in South India gradually learn south Indian languages and vice versa for south Indians living in North.



Why not have ENGLISH as a link language? Whether we acknowledge it or not, ENGLISH is gaining foot hold in India. All the business communications are done in English. North Indians can stick to Hindi in their belt while South Indians their respective language in their states. But Bollywood is doing a tremendous job in educating southern masses on Hindi. Personally, I am from Vijayawada, AP, I speak Hindi just as well as my mother tongue Telugu. Most of my friends may not be able to speak in Hindi out of shy, they surely understands it. English could fill in the gap.


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## Coltsfan

Why are we discussing languages in India?

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## footmarks

true_indian said:


> Why not have ENGLISH as a link language? Whether we acknowledge it or not, ENGLISH is gaining foot hold in India. All the business communications are done in English. North Indians can stick to Hindi in their belt while South Indians their respective language in their states. But Bollywood is doing a tremendous job in educating southern masses on Hindi. Personally, I am from Vijayawada, AP, I speak Hindi just as well as my mother tongue Telugu. Most of my friends may not be able to speak in Hindi out of shy, they surely understands it. English could fill in the gap.



As I said, we may choose any language we feel comfortable with. The idea is to be able to communicate efficiently. English is a language most of the urban population can speak, but rural India dont. 
And yes, i agree, thanx to bollywood, most of the Indians can understand & speak most common words of Punjabi, Gujarati, Bengali, Tamil, english & of course, Hindi.

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## muse

> You are insisting on reinforcing ignorance. Who is/are everybody else? And why do you think that the South Indians should know/speak Hindi /Urdu ?



Easy, easy - I just asked you a simple question -- seems to me that you would all agree that Indians speak English, regardless of whether you live in the South North East or West, so why such hostility to speaking Urdu or Hindi?

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## nForce

footmarks said:


> I dont support the Idea of a single language for all in a country like India. Though I am from North India (Uttarakhand) and speak Hindi (Traditionally Kumauni dialect, which is way too different from Hindi, but still related) , I dont see any reason *why everybody should learn it forcefully.* *We live in an open society, people should themselves decide what language they want to speak. *Its a mode of communication, so north Indians living in South India gradually learn south Indian languages and vice versa for south Indians living in North.



Nobody is *forced *to learn Hindi.I am from West Bengal.I had my schooling there.I never had Hindi as any of my papers in my school.But my school did provide Hindi as an option.We were free to choose our option.
I had English as my first language and Bengali as my second language.
So is the case everywhere else.You are free to choose your language.

We do live in an open society where people decide what language they want to speak....

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## Coltsfan

muse said:


> Easy, easy - I just asked you a simple question -- seems to me that you would all agree that Indians speak English, regardless of whether you live in the South North East or West, so why such hostility to speaking Urdu or Hindi?



I think I see where you wanna take this discussion, do you wanna start another thread, we don't want all of your posts getting deleted for being "off topic".

Thanks

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## footmarks

muse said:


> Easy, easy - I just asked you a simple question -- seems to me that you would all agree that Indians speak English, regardless of whether you live in the South North East or West, so why such hostility to speaking Urdu or Hindi?



FYI, nobody speak Hindi or Urdu in India, atleast not in its pure form. So if you ever come to India, dont expect someone will say "Miya tashreef rakhiye" (Urdu) of "Kripaya aasan grahan karein" (Hindi). rather a straight - "Seat le lijiye" or "o ji Baitho ji" or a mix of different languages depending upon which part of India you are in.

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## muse

Well Thanks - as per coltsfans warning I better stick to Bhooka Nanga Hindustan, Jan se Pyara Pakistan -- I wonder if the south Indian types understand this slogan being raised by the captive Kashmiri?


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## Coltsfan

muse said:


> Well Thanks - as per coltsfans warning I better stick to Bhooka Nanga Hindustan, Jan se Pyara Pakistan -- I wonder if the south Indian types understand this slogan being raised by the captive Kashmiri?



Thanks. The translation of the slogan in English is already listed on thread topic.

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## footmarks

muse said:


> Well Thanks - as per coltsfans warning I better stick to Bhooka Nanga Hindustan, Jan se Pyara Pakistan -- I wonder if the south Indian types understand this slogan being raised by the captive Kashmiri?



 I wonder whether the "Real" Kashmiris understand it or it is just used by Pakistan trained Jihadi terrorists and their puppets living illegally in Kashmir.

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## JanjaWeed

civfanatic said:


> If you had read my post carefully you would have seen that I mentioned that the Tamil separatism died out . Whether that would raise its head in future is a speculation and yours is as good as mine . My post was reality check to the mocking attitude adopted by Indian members who said that they had never heard of Tamil separatism.I pointed that rather than revealing anything else it reveals their lack of knowledge of their countries current history . It is strange that you think that you burst some kind of bubble ...It suggests your inability to comprehend simple English .



my friend i don't think the thread starter was talking about the history of india in the past or what might happen in 50 years down the road. my earlier & the subsequent response was to his false statement saying the *Tamil movement, which is ever ready to bomb civilians to make their point*. my whole argument was based on this point. either you are ignorant to the facts on the ground or you are conveniently ignoring the facts because it may not serve your purpose..


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## muse

> I wonder whether the "Real" Kashmiris understand it or it is just used by Pakistan trained Jihadi terrorists and their puppets living illegally in Kashmir.



Really now, I'm sure they both understand it, If a Bhooka Naanga Hindustan is a reality, and in some places it is, then better that you be less prickly and more real - the only solution to such a reality is to change it - but seems that for the captive Kashmiri and the Jihadi terrorists and their puppets and their pets and their friends, this is a reality that happily, at least for them, Indian friends are far removed from.


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## footmarks

muse said:


> Really now, I'm sure they both understand it, If a Bhooka Naanga Hindustan is a reality, and in some places it is, then better that you be less prickly and more real - the only solution to such a reality is to change it - but seems that for the captive Kashmiri and the Jihadi terrorists and their puppets and their pets and their friends, this is a reality that happily, at least for them, Indian friends are far removed from.



For those who think Pakistan is any better place to live in than "Bhukha Nanga" Hindustan, they are free to go to their "Jaan se Pyaara" Pakistan. Ofcourse it has to be "Jaan" se pyaara, because otherwise nobody will long for going to Pakistan to get Killed.

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## muse

Yes, of course, I completely take your point, but it seems that these people wantot bring all their possessions and they possess the land as well, to jan se pyara Pakistan - How might the Indian peoples, after all they are not just one peoples, react to this eventuality? Will they accept the will of the captive Kashmiri and jihadi terrorists and their puppets and friends and pets or will they go into honor and shame mode, making a mockery of "hum hindustani"?

Yes, it's a terrible situation, but if you will get past the way it has been framed - and it is essentially framed realistically, you will find that the problem is indeed very deep and painful - it does not do to say "Jihadi" and imagine that the problem has changed -- and really, I think India will remain "caged" if you will, if it does not resolve this problem to the satisfaction of the captive Kashmiri -- indulge me, let me give you a example close by, Pakistan Duh! Pakistan appears to be unable to help itself, we all know what must be done, we all know this, and yet look at the way it is is being done -- similarly, I think everybody in India know what has to happen, but they have not really internalized the situation and it's solution, and therefore suffer..."outrageous fortune", because all the time they know what must be done and are dithering - won't you agree?


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## Coltsfan

muse said:


> Yes, of course, I completely take your point, but it seems that these people wantot bring all their possessions and they possess the land as well, to jan se pyara Pakistan - How might the Indian peoples, after all they are not just one peoples, react to this eventuality? Will they accept the will of the captive Kashmiri and jihadi terrorists and their puppets and friends and pets or will they go into honor and shame mode, making a mockery of "hum hindustani"?
> 
> Yes, it's a terrible situation, but if you will get past the way it has been framed - and it is essentially framed realistically, you will find that the problem is indeed very deep and painful - it does not do to say "Jihadi" and imagine that the problem has changed -- and really, I think India will remain "caged" if you will, if it does not resolve this problem to the satisfaction of the captive Kashmiri -- indulge me, let me give you a example close by, Pakistan Duh! Pakistan appears to be unable to help itself, we all know what must be done, we all know this, and yet look at the way it is is being done -- similarly, I think everybody in India know what has to happen, but they have not really internalized the situation and it's solution, and therefore suffer..."outrageous fortune", because all the time they know what must be done and are dithering - won't you agree?




Pakistan's only logic for having kashmir is the muslim majority logic.

But that had been destroyed in 1971 when Pakistan could not even keep the land it was given to it by the Britishers. 

It is not just a dispute b/w India and Pakistan, it is also a dispute b/w two very different ideologies for which the respective nations stand for.

If India lets go of Kashmir, we would have let go of every state and province, you very well know that is not going happen.

So in essence, fight for Kashmir has become fight for India and everything it stands for, and we shall take the fight all the way.

The only thing Kashmiris have to choose is whether they want to join rest of India and be part of the development or be pawns at hands of people who want to harm India for their ulterior motives and their desire to "settle" scores for past defeats.

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## footmarks

muse said:


> *Yes, of course, I completely take your point, but it seems that these people wantot bring all their possessions and they possess the land as well, to jan se pyara Pakistan?*



No, the land and all other natural assets belong to the Nation, its a national property, not any individual's. At any point of time, if it is of national concern & well being, Govt can take away land from its holders in lieu of proper monetary/ kind compensation. This is why if oil is discovered, or road/dam is to be built, people living in the area are rehabilitated. Kashmir is a national asset so if some people dont want to live in India, they may go, land will stay.

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## muse

> If India lets go of Kashmir, we would have let go of every state and province, you very well know that is not going happen.



That's tripe -- India is not a collection of states to be held in captivity. Can Inida be India abnd hold a state captive?? Think that one over, don't give one liners full of emotion - actually think about it, can it be democratic and "secular" holding the only Muslim majority state captive?? Today the world is buying your line because there is the Islamist bugaboo around, but they won't be around for much loinger not in the way they have been - and then? 

The case of kashmir is unique because it is the unfinished business of 47. It's unfortunate and it's painful, no one is denying that and it must be especially painful that after making such dramatic movement in creating lives of dignity that the India recalled is Bhooka and Naanga - all that is understood, but please don't give me worn out, unconsidered pathetic positions - All India will unravel - it's great for scaring people into supporting a particular line -- look the US did it and look at what it got them, is this even the America we admired? 

So, yes, painful yes, got to be done, and I am saying this because in the end, whether Jihadi or something else captive Kashmiri want out -- but there is something I am really suprised by, none of our Indian interlocutors have said OK, lets see how they like you -- what do you think the response from Pakistan might be?? What has been their track record in assimilating provinces and extending rights and shouldering responsibilities??


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## Coltsfan

muse said:


> That's tripe -- India is not a collection of states to be held in captivity. Can Inida be India abnd hold a state captive?? Think that one over, don't give one liners full of emotion - actually think about it, can it be democratic and "secular" holding the only Muslim majority state captive?? Today the world is buying your line because there is the Islamist bugaboo around, but they won't be around for much loinger not in the way they have been - and then?
> 
> The case of kashmir is unique because it is the unfinished business of 47. It's unfortunate and it's painful, no one is denying that and it must be especially painful that after making such dramatic movement in creating lives of dignity that the India recalled is Bhooka and Naanga - all that is understood, but please don't give me worn out, unconsidered pathetic positions - All India will unravel - it's great for scaring people into supporting a particular line -- look the US did it and look at what it got them, is this even the America we admired?
> 
> So, yes, painful yes, got to be done, and I am saying this because in the end, whether Jihadi or something else captive Kashmiri want out -- but there is something I am really suprised by, none of our Indian interlocutors have said OK, lets see how they like you -- what do you think the response from Pakistan might be?? What has been their track record in assimilating provinces and extending rights and shouldering responsibilities??



Well you called my emotional and genuine reasoning for kashmir to be with India as "tripe", so here are the practical and pragmatic reason that you would understand.

Kashmir has an invaluable strategic and military importance for India.

So, I have presented you with both emotional and pragmatic view points why India shall not do away with kashmir.

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## footmarks

muse said:


> That's tripe -- India is not a collection of states to be held in captivity. Can Inida be India abnd hold a state captive?? Think that one over, don't give one liners full of emotion - actually think about it, can it be democratic and "secular" holding the only Muslim majority state captive?? Today the world is buying your line because there is the Islamist bugaboo around, but they won't be around for much loinger not in the way they have been - and then?



The idea of India is something people living in a country made on religious grounds wont understand. India does not endorse nor recognize any religion based differentiation of geography. Kashmir is a muslim majority state doesnt mean that we will detach it from India. ANd being a muslim majority state CERTAINLY does not mean that it belong to Pakistan. All Pakistani may be muslims but all muslims are not Pakistani.

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## nivas

Coltsfan said:


> Kashmir has an invaluable strategic and military importance for India.




This is exactly one of the main reasons why both India want to hold on to its Kashmir and Pakistan wants the whole of Kashmir.

Ans water resources is the other one.

The issue of people - Kashmiris comes as a distant third after the above two reasons.


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## muse

> Kashmir has an invaluable strategic and military importance for India.



Actually, this too is a canard - because it's so called "invaluable strategic and military importance" is predicated on the idea of hostilities with Pakistan and China - otherwise, trapping 700,000 armed Indian personnel is not what anybody in their right mind would call invaluable strategic importance" unless one were looking at this development through the eyes of a Pakistani military strategist.

See, the way in which you are looking at this betrays a fixation with the past - a past in which India is caged -- you may not like the word but I strongly encourage you to consider the picture it paints.

India cannot emerge, will not take it's rightful place, unless it is at peace with Pakistan - I know that many people will find this unacceptable because it's uncomfortable and it makes them think - add to this border problems with China -- and it can get worse, long term destabilization, the Naxal movement is more dangerous than the issue of captive Kashmir. 

In order to bring about a strategic reframing - India cannot have problems with Pakistan, in fact, Pakistan must be turned in to a partner which protects and guarantees the North West and China similarly which guarantees the North and the North East and India does the same for them.

But this may be too radical for you as yet to consider, however, I think these kinds of ideas must be explored if India is to escape it's cage.


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## footmarks

muse said:


> Actually, this too is a canard - because it's so called "invaluable strategic and military importance" is predicated on the idea of hostilities with Pakistan and China - otherwise, trapping 700,000 armed Indian personnel is not what anybody in their right mind would call invaluable strategic importance" unless one were looking at this development through the eyes of a Pakistani military strategist.
> 
> See, the way in which you are looking at this betrays a fixation with the past - a past in which India is caged -- you may not like the word but I strongly encourage you to consider the picture it paints.
> 
> India cannot emerge, will not take it's rightful place, unless it is at peace with Pakistan - I know that many people will find this unacceptable because it's uncomfortable and it makes them think - add to this border problems with China -- and it can get worse, long term destabilization, the Naxal movement is more dangerous than the issue of captive Kashmir.
> 
> In order to bring about a strategic reframing - India cannot have problems with Pakistan, in fact, Pakistan must be turned in to a partner which protects and guarantees the North West and China similarly which guarantees the North and the North East and India does the same for them.
> 
> But this may be too radical for you as yet to consider, however, I think these kinds of ideas must be explored if India is to escape it's cage.





Pakistan was created on the premise that Muslims cant co exist with Hindu majority, and those who believed in this false premise, went to Pakistan during partition. Sadly, Pakistan can not change its geographical location (nor can India) so it has to learn to co-exist with India. Its not us who are at fault, its the founders of Pakistan who are. 

India DO NOT have problems with Pakistan, India IS the problem with Pakistan. You just cant believe that two nations, one with all imperfections one can fathom and other made for perfection, can grow (actually only one is growing) in such a stark contrast to what was expected. Pakistan was supposed to be a dreamland, an ideal for Muslims & perfect display of preachings of Islam put on practise to govern its citizens. And India was supposed to crumble under its own weight of drastic dis-similarities based on language, religion, region, caste, and what not. And you still believe that the incredible growth story that India is charting is a false propoganda,that it is impossible, while your own dream house is on fire.

You put all the blame of your failures on us, as you see us as enemies with whom you can not make friends.

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## muse

> You put all the blame of your failures on us, as you see us as enemies with whom you can not make friends.




I don't think anywhere in my post can you find even one such a reference - so I think this post rather unfair.

Pakistan, you are exactly right, has failed in it's original promise, but this is not a solution to India's problem - Bhooka Naanga Hindustan, Jan se Pyara Pakistan 

Look, I'm not suggesting you are not entitled to your position, but I do ask that you at least create a cogent argument and present a position that deals with the problem at hand, which is Bhooka Naanga.

By all means say Pakistan and it's founders are the fountain of evil, it may be emotionally satisfying - but it still leaves you with the Bhooka Naanga problem, doesn't it ? So why not deal with that problem?


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## indianpatriot

well even if India is "bhooka nanga" the country provides cutting edge education,intellect,opportunities and healthcare to make Kashmiris behave like citizens!!!!

what Pakistan has on offer is a failed democracy and failed social structure and rising radicalism....Kashjmir will regret if it leaves India!!!

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## muse

Finally, at least one Indian came forward to say the obvious.


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## foxbat

muse said:


> Easy, easy - I just asked you a simple question -- seems to me that you would all agree that Indians speak English, regardless of whether you live in the South North East or West, so why such hostility to speaking Urdu or Hindi?



In my view, commonality of English has also to do with that being a commonly used language across the western world where India has highest % of immigration and trade.

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## footmarks

muse said:


> I don't think anywhere in my post can you find even one such a reference - so I think this post rather unfair.
> 
> Pakistan, you are exactly right, has failed in it's original promise, but this is not a solution to India's problem - Bhooka Naanga Hindustan, Jan se Pyara Pakistan
> 
> Look, I'm not suggesting you are not entitled to your position, but I do ask that you at least create a cogent argument and present a position that deals with the problem at hand, which is Bhooka Naanga.
> 
> By all means say Pakistan and it's founders are the fountain of evil, it may be emotionally satisfying - but it still leaves you with the Bhooka Naanga problem, doesn't it ? So why not deal with that problem?



You have to actually travel to India to see how many are indeed "Bhookha Nanga" in India, and how many of those remaining "Bhookha Nanga" are getting food and clothes with each passing year. 

BTW, at least those chanting this slogan in Kashmir, neither look bhookha nor nanga to me. Which takes me to the 2nd part _Jaan se pyaara Pakistan. As I said, one really have to love Pakistan more than his Life to actually live there. *Kabhi bhi Jaan ja sakti hai*. 

And if those kashmiri really love pakistan that much, why dont they just leave, and why not you open the border for them and give them pakistani citizenship? afterall they love pakistan more than their lives, they surely can let go of the land for this love. What u say?

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## sajan

nForce said:


> Nobody is *forced *to learn Hindi.I am from West Bengal.I had my schooling there.I never had Hindi as any of my papers in my school.But my school did provide Hindi as an option.We were free to choose our option.
> I had English as my first language and Bengali as my second language.
> So is the case everywhere else.You are free to choose your language.
> 
> We do live in an open society where people decide what language they want to speak....


Yes, we are not forced to learn hindi anywhere. During my college days we had options to choose either hindi, malayalam, latin, french or arabic as second language(in university of kerala).Since i could't digest the malayalam literature and grammar during my school days i opted for hindi which was much easier to learn and to score more marks (Syllabus wise) than my own language.

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## foxbat

footmarks said:


> You have to actually travel to India to see how many are indeed "Bhookha Nanga" in India, and how many of those remaining "Bhookha Nanga" are getting food and clothes with each passing year.
> 
> BTW, at least those chanting this slogan in Kashmir, neither look bhookha nor nanga to me. Which takes me to the 2nd part _Jaan se pyaara Pakistan. As I said, one really have to love Pakistan more than his Life to actually live there. *Kabhi bhi Jaan ja sakti hai*.
> 
> *And if those kashmiri really love pakistan that much, why dont they just leave, and why not you open the border for them and give them pakistani citizenship? afterall they love pakistan more than their lives, they surely can let go of the land for this love. What u say?*



So the sequence of love goes like this in the decreasing order

Land
Pakistan
Life

Land is dearer than Pakistan, else separatists would have left and gone to Pakistan
Pakistan is dearer than Life, if a take the slogan on face value 


Is it me or is there something wrong with the priorities of these folks..

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## airuah

^^quote from footmarks--Which takes me to the 2nd part _Jaan se pyaara Pakistan. As I said, one really have to love Pakistan more than his Life to actually live there. Kabhi bhi Jaan ja sakti hai. 

well said my friend....

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## Jade

muse said:


> That's tripe -- India is not a collection of states to be held in captivity. Can Inida be India abnd hold a state captive?? Think that one over, don't give one liners full of emotion - actually think about it, can it be democratic and "secular" holding the only Muslim majority state captive?? Today the world is buying your line because there is the Islamist bugaboo around, but they won't be around for much loinger not in the way they have been - and then?



Indians are much more rational then Pakistanis in matters related to Kashmir. If you calculate the collateral damage Kashmir has caused to each of the country, you get the answer. 

Yes you are correct to say that the world including majority of Kashmiries are no longer going to buy the clich&#233; &#8216;Muslim majority state&#8217;. It is time for Pakistan to change its position 




> The case of kashmir is unique because it is the unfinished business of 47. It's unfortunate and it's painful, no one is denying that and it must be especially painful that after making such dramatic movement in creating lives of dignity that the India recalled is Bhooka and Naanga - all that is understood, but please don't give me worn out, unconsidered pathetic positions - All India will unravel - it's great for scaring people into supporting a particular line -- look the US did it and look at what it got them, is this even the America we admired?



The case Kashmir is finished the moment the King signed the instrument of accession. As for UN resolutions they are defunct and have expired. It is time to remove them from the UN Charter. This is going to do good for both to India and more to Pakistan 

As for the &#8216;Bhooka and Naange&#8217;, it is another clich&#233;. It is clich&#233;&#8217; which most Pakistanis use an excuse for its short comings . Anyway,I presume you are in UK, is not world admiring India?




> So, yes, painful yes, got to be done, and I am saying this because in the end, whether Jihadi or something else captive Kashmiri want out -- but there is something I am really suprised by, none of our Indian interlocutors have said OK, lets see how they like you -- what do you think the response from Pakistan might be?? What has been their track record in assimilating provinces and extending rights and shouldering responsibilities??



Can you say the same thing of your government position; it has changed a lot since your country was formed. Musharraf solution is one such example

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## Awesome

TextMiner said:


> You know, A long time ago, i too read a poem but which was exactly a vitriolic criticism of Pakistani people (the elected leaders in particular).
> 
> 
> 
> yeh galyoun ke aawara baikaar kuttay,
> ke bakhsha gaya jin ko zouq-e-gadai,
> zamanay ki phitkaar sarmaya unka,
> jahaan bhar ki dhutkaar inn ki kamaai
> 
> na araam shab ko, na rahat sawairay
> ghalazat mei ghar, naaliyoun mei basairay
> jo bigrhain tou ikk doosray se larhadou
> zara aik roti ka tukrha dikha dou
> yeh harr aik ki thokrain khaanay walay
> yeh faaqoun se uktaa ke marr janay walay
> 
> yeh mazloom makhlooque garr sarr uthaey
> tou insaan sabb sarr-kashi bhool jaey
> yeh chahein tou dunya ko apna banalein
> yeh aaqaoun ki haddiyan takk chabalein
> koi inko ehsas-e-zillat dila de
> koi inki soui hui dumm hilaa de...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the Kashmiris would rather live with Kutteys than Bhookey-Nange !!! Strange Logic !!!
> 
> The Kashmiris, heck even the Pakistanis are yet to decide whether the Kashmiris want to live with Bhooke Nangey ya Faiz Ahmed Faiz ke Kuttey !!!
Click to expand...


It is the most typical of Indian defences whenever they are losing an argument start dishing out bigoted offensive comments against a nation to derail threads and get them closed. Thread will under go some moderation, but will not close. Meanwhile I'd request people to not feed the trolls.

For the Kuttay comment, I'd like to remind you what Bulley Shah once said:



> Raati jaagay sheikh sada mein
> You keep awake at night and consider yourself pious
> 
> Tey raati jagan kuttay tain thee uttay
> But (Bulleya) even dogs stay awake the whole night,they are better than you!
> 
> Dar malik da mool na chadhtay, pawain sau sau pawnday juttay, tain thee uttay
> They do not leave the door of the master, even if beaten, they are better than you!
> 
> Rukhi sukhi roti khandain, attay jagray tai suttay, tain thee uttay
> They eat the leftovers and stale food, they are better than you!
> 
> Chal way miyan Bulleya, chal yaar (Kashmiris) mana lay
> Come on Bulleya, let's go and pacify Him (Kashmiris)
> 
> Nahin tay baazi lay gaye kuttay, tain thee uttay
> Otherwise the dogs steal the game, they are better than you!

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## SekrutYakhni

Asim Aquil said:


> It is the most typical of Indian defences whenever they are losing an argument start dishing out bigoted offensive comments against a nation to derail threads and get them closed. Thread will under go some moderation, but will not close. Meanwhile I'd request people to not feed the trolls.
> 
> For the Kuttay comment, I'd like to remind you what Bulley Shah once said:



Faiz Ahmed Faiz talks about the elite class in Pakistan. This has nothing to do with India. It is a pure revolutionary piece where he wants his people to stand up against corrupt class. That '*****' is the corrupt class--


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## Awesome

saad445566 said:


> Faiz Ahmed Faiz talks about the elite class in Pakistan. This has nothing to do with India. It is a pure revolutionary piece where he wants his people to stand up against corrupt class. That '*****' is the corrupt class--


Of course, its a beautiful poem, I'm just commenting upon its perverted (ab)use.


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## SekrutYakhni

Asim Aquil said:


> Of course, its a beautiful poem, I'm just commenting upon its perverted (ab)use.



Yes, that is right. One should know the history before posting anything (Indians)


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## footmarks

saad445566 said:


> Yes, that is right. One should know the history before posting anything (*Indians*)



Your post seems to convey that only Indians should know the history before posting anything, and pakistanis can post anything without knowing the history.

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## riju78

rafay321 said:


> Nice showcase you have got there. Just like your country wasted no time to install Abdul Kalam as president to save its secular image after the Muslim massacre. Your force is occupying Kashmir's land and we are sleeping?




if u think BJP installed Shri Abdul Kalam (the most loved president aka common people's favourite) to save india's secular image then my dear friend even GOD cant help u...


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## Nagraj

rafay321 said:


> Nice showcase you have got there. Just like your country wasted no time to install Abdul Kalam as president *to save its secular image* after the Muslim massacre. Your force is occupying Kashmir's land and we are sleeping?
> 
> 
> 
> It is quiet boring to listen to Indians telling me about getting killed in my cities. In last 60+ years only past decade has been so and that too because of foreign funded terrorists who are being taken care off.
> 
> I wonder where i would be if my state government and my CM and police chief was hell bent on killing me and my family. Damn sounds scary to me.
> 
> 
> 
> You just cant help yourself my friend. Freedom movement in Gilgir Baltistan
> 
> 
> 
> Let them decide their fate as i have said before don't need to be their daddy.
> 
> The Muslim head count in Indian army is scrutinized by several several independent sources. Google yourself.
> 
> We are more than happy that we are not part of a system where the system itself kills the minorities.
> 
> 
> I have no interest in your democracy. The only point is that you comfortably do not apply your democratic principles in Kashmir and still claim to be worlds biggest democracy. This is called hypocrisy. use a dictionary.
> 
> You guys wont be able to come with a sane argument when it comes to Kashmir. The reality is that the status of 700,000 Indian army is that of an occupying force and Kashmir is disputed territory with no international border.
> 
> You please don't talk about Azad kashmir. You wont see more anti-Indian population anywhere. We are not doing a single thing there that could be interpreted as we are occupying it.
> 
> You people are making yourself look like fools talking about Gilgit and Azad Kashmir. Go check the protests, deaths and human rights violation and the $$ you put in Kashmir to occupy it and the size of your army. Truth is bitter.




in front of whom??
pakistan!!!
sir you need to wake up and wash u r face !!!


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Anti-India rally held in Kashmir​*





Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, center right, and Yasin Malik, center left, raise their hands during a protest in Srinagar on Sept. 10, 2010.

Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:49PM

*Thousands of people have once again taken to the streets in Indian-administered Kashmir to protest civilian killings in the disputed Himalayan region. *

Led by the leaders of the two major pro-independence movements, the anti-India rally was held outside the Jamia mosque in Srinagar on Friday. 

Mirwaiz Umar Farooq -- a Muslim cleric and an influential moderate separatist -- along with Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) chairman Muhammad Yasin Malik vowed to take the ongoing movement to its logical end. 

Kashmiri protesters threw stones at paramilitary forces and shouted anti-Indian slogans in several towns across the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley. 

The region's influential separatist politicians have led numerous rallies in the disputed valley over the past weeks. 

They have threatened to continue protests until India declares Kashmir an "international dispute" and releases all political prisoners. 

Demonstrators have been taking to the streets to protest against the government on an almost daily basis for months. 

Indian forces have been struggling to contain the angry demonstrations, which first erupted after a student was killed by police in June. 

Around 70 protesters and bystanders have been killed over the past three months. 

PressTV - Anti-India rally held in Kashmir

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## Donatello

Man, when will it stop.


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## Patrician

It will stop the day Pak and these marginalised seperatists realise that they cannot have 'everything'

They demand that India withdraw forces
They demand that India withdraw AFSPA
They demand that India investigate human rights' violation
They demand that India grant them independence
They demand that India hold a plebiscite
and what not?

Do they seriously think that they are a cry baby and India will propitiate them every time they raise a hue and cry about this issue and that?

Well, It's not...never...going to be a solution where one party gives everything and other party/parties takes everything.

It has to be a solution of compromise.

And hence, this will 'stop' the day Pak and these seperatists 'realise' that they will also have to give something and hence compromise.

It's quite unfair to demand only India to give everything without getting anything in return. Quite simply, not going to happen no matter how much bloodshed there is.


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## Moorkh

> They demand that India withdraw forces
> They demand that India withdraw AFSPA
> They demand that India investigate human rights' violation
> They demand that India grant them independence
> They demand that India hold a plebiscite



of the 5 points you have mentioned above i support point 3. human rights violations need to be investigated as they would be in any other part of our country.

point 1 and 2 depend on the insurgency and security situation in J&K. once the security situation improves to the point that the army is not needed to flush out terrorists who regularly infiltrate the LoC, the army can move out and the AFSPA can be revoked.

points 4 and 5 are pretty much the same. with the current scenario, the kashmiris are too pissed off with india to choose anything but independence. 

maybe if we had conducted the plebicide in 1971.....sigh. 

on the demand of plebicide, the GoI will probably keep stalling forever or till a point is reached where the populace of kashmir supports india.


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## Patrician

Moorkh said:


> of the 5 points you have mentioned above i support point 3. human rights violations need to be investigated as they would be in any other part of our country.
> 
> point 1 and 2 depend on the insurgency and security situation in J&K. once the security situation improves to the point that the army is not needed to flush out terrorists who regularly infiltrate the LoC, the army can move out and the AFSPA can be revoked.
> 
> points 4 and 5 are pretty much the same. with the current scenario, the kashmiris are too pissed off with india to choose anything but independence.
> 
> maybe if we had conducted the plebicide in 1971.....sigh.
> 
> on the demand of plebicide, the GoI will probably keep stalling forever or till a point is reached where the populace of kashmir supports india.



Buddy it's a cold-hearted game of interplay of interests and interests only.

India is playing to its own interests.
Pakistan is playing to its own interests.
Separatists are playing to their own interests.

My simple point is, everybody will have to give something and take something. This hold true for India, Pakistan and the seperatists. But, and this is a big but, since India currently has the upper hand and a position of strength, hence, India will get, it's only logical, more than it will give.

India will have to give full autonomy, human rights and everything. What India can't give in to is redrawing of borders. It's simply not going to happen. Plebiscite, hence, as an extrapolation of that, is not in India's interest.

Pakistan will also have to reconcile its differences with India. Give up demand for plebiscite, independence, redrawing of borders. In return, Pakistan gets peace (and they need it much more currently than does India). Pakistan gets trade with India which their economy needs desperately. And if they really are serious about the interests of kashmiris, it will give them assurance that the rights of kashmiris will be upheld.

Kahmiris will have to give up demand for independence. What they will get is a reconciliation with the parts of Kashmir under Pakistan's control. A greater unified kashmir will emerge with much much more autonomy and actual freedom but under the respective military control of India and Pakistan.

In the end, everybody will have to compromise.


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## bandit

penumbra said:


> Man, when will it stop.



It'll never stop. It never should. Its a legal right in India to express your opinion when you feel wronged. Its freedom of speech. So no, its not gonna stop till every one feels hes been done done justice. When that happens is not sure, but till then every Tom, Dick and Harry like me has the right to peaceully protest against the government for its policies that I don't agree with. Thats *Democracy*.

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## Hulk

The Kashmir's is one of the most confused people in the world. While they are demanding 100 things they do not look inwards and no introspection.

1) The Human riots violation happened only after 1989, to put it straight. If you start doing violence in house you can get mistreated.
When people became militant and started killing people who were simply doing their job, how do they feel? They respond and for them it is not easy to identify between common man and militant, since unlike security forces they do not have a uniform. This leads to situations where they are wrong, also some people take advantage of the situation and misuse it.

Simply put when you create a situation where security forces needs to be called, you have live with side effects. The solution stop supporting militancy and security forces will be out. These violent protests are doing the opposite. So in that sense Kashmir's are doing the opposite of what they are asking for.

Assam, Manipur also has same problem, it is because you have created situation where security forces are called in.

2) Look at this hypocrisy of Kashmir people. They did injustice with Pandits, they cannot rectify it themselves but asking for Justice. Simply put when u are at doing end you do not want to compromise of find a solution for your brothers whom you raped because of religion. Now when you are at receiving end you are saying we want this and that.

3) By the least a demand for Independence should come from at-least a complete state, this is not understood by the Kashmir's they think only 4 districts can ask for freedom. I was watching the NDTV program where first some Kashmir said we want the whole Kashmir to get Independent, later they were asked if they cared about others and their views they said they are fine being a country of 4 districts.

Now this is not living in lala land or what, who will make 4 districts as a country?

In the end Kashmir's have more than anyone can give provide they come to peace.
They have own people ruling.
Article 370 preventing others from buying property. No other state has this.
They get more money than other states.

All the cry of Human riots violation will vanish if they try to bring peace in valley, there will be no security forces then.

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## Star of David

I think its important for India to start thinking of new routes at containing this "tamashe." Allow all Indians to live and work in Kashmir. Revoke their special status. Times have changed and tough decisions have to be made. It is not fair for the rest of India when Kashmiris can go anywhere in India to live and work. Our tactics need to change and adapt to the changing scenarios, the same way terrorists look at weaknesses to exploit any situation. Just take a look at how the West responds to riots. Sometimes even assassinations have to be taken for the overall good of the country. These separatists should be hanged or imprisoned immediately. A policy of photographing leaders and their cohorts should be taken immediately to interpret the bigger picture.


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## Hulk

Star of David said:


> I think its important for India to start thinking of new routes at containing this "tamashe." Allow all Indians to live and work in Kashmir. Revoke their special status. Times have changed and tough decisions have to be made. It is not fair for the rest of India when Kashmiris can go anywhere in India to live and work. Our tactics need to change and adapt to the changing scenarios, the same way terrorists look at weaknesses to exploit any situation. Just take a look at how the West responds to riots. Sometimes even assassinations have to be taken for the overall good of the country. These separatists should be hanged or imprisoned immediately. A policy of photographing leaders and their cohorts should be taken immediately to interpret the bigger picture.



I agree but problem is you cannot send people in large number in a day and in small number they will kill.


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## Agnostic_Indian

indianrabbit said:


> I agree but problem is you cannot send people in large number in a day and in small number they will kill.


If autonomy offer fails we should go other way.
Let's make a peace agreement with maoists (i think they are ready for peaceful settlements) and send them with their guns.A few thousands of them can take care of security along with army. Then others can be brought in.we should do it colony wise. Crazy idea but i am frustrated nothing seems to be enough for them..then we should borrow some chinese way of governing for them..they dont understand peace then let them understand the language of bullets.


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## TheInvisible

Problem of Kashmir can be seriously discussed with separatist only when Pandits are allowed to settle Kashmir.

Till that time they can shout, scream, cry, dance, stand upside down, throw stones, eat stones....

Not an iota is going to change...

These separatist need to treat humans as humans if they want to be respected as humans.

Simple: let Pandits in and then come for talks...


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## Tuahaa

TheInvisible said:


> Simple: let Pandits in and then come for talks...



I'm afraid that won't work


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## Indiarox

Tuahaa said:


> I'm afraid that won't work



Why not ???They are as Kashmiri as any other Kashmiri shouting slogans on the streets of Srinagar.


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## somebozo

Ok how long India will supressed people of occupied kashmir?? There is no such thing as winning heart and mind..even of you open the whole world treasures to they its highly unlikey that they would give up their fight for freedom. Kashmir do not belong to India they should stop blaming Pakistan and ISI and serious look into the issue.

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## RamGorur

What is so contemptible about these Kashmiri yahoos is the blatant hypocrisy and political bankruptcy of their demands. Here is a bunch of people who want to exercise their apparent right to self-determination - only to secede from the State - but at the same time they demand that the very State must not exercise its own right to maintain its territorial integrity. They would openly agitate to secede from the State but demands that the State must not react to this clear threat of territorial disintegration in a way that the State deems fit, but in a way that the secessionists deem fit. 

They want APFSA to be gone. Fine. I can sympathize with that. But one has to be intellectually completely bankrupt to expect that an Act that was written precisely to handle a situation created by them will be completely withdrawn till they climb down from their claim of an absurd right to secede; or till the State is confident that the threat to territorial disintegration no longer exists. As long as there will be call for secession, violent or otherwise, there will always be a law, in one form or the other, as means to exercise States right to maintain territorial integrity. 

You made the bed. Now sleep on it.


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## Paan Singh

somebozo said:


> Ok how long India will supressed people of occupied kashmir?? There is no such thing as winning heart and mind..even of you open the whole world treasures to they its highly unlikey that they would give up their fight for freedom. Kashmir do not belong to India they should stop blaming Pakistan and ISI and serious look into the issue.



we are tired of explanation


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## bandit

somebozo said:


> Ok how long India will supressed people of occupied kashmir?? *There is no such thing as winning heart and mind..even of you open the whole world treasures to they its highly unlikey that they would give up their fight for freedom*. Kashmir do not belong to India they should stop blaming Pakistan and ISI and serious look into the issue.



Read this - this is just a government job - wonder what treasures would get them to do.



> SRINAGAR: Despite reports of desertions in its ranks and threats of social boycott, J&K police has emerged as a big draw for young job hunters in employment-starved Kashmir. Ignoring calls by hardliners to shun the khaki force, nearly 60,000 men applied for less than 3,000 jobs in J&K police -- about 200 applicants for one constable's post.



Read more: Khaki enemy? 60000 Kashmiris apply for 3000 police jobs - The Times of India Khaki enemy? 60000 Kashmiris apply for 3000 police jobs - The Times of India


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## somebozo

> only to secede from the State - but at the same time they demand that the very State must not exercise its own right to maintain its territorial integrity.



This clause would only apply if J&K was indian terriotry ever in history which it is not. The Indian propoganda of akhand bharat has not sucessfully brainwashed anyone yet other than Indians themselves.

Reading indian suggestions here its a clear picture that everyone opinion is hell bent on using force and violence. WHY? Simply because neither they are Kashmiri nor they live in Kashmir..for them satisfaction to their ego mania "akhand bharat" is very important so they can thump their chest world wide. But resolution to force and continued resistance since 62 years only means India is an occupation power and its not going anywhere far from that status. Think of failed american strategy in Iraq and Afghanistan. There is no such thing as winning hearts and mind by occupation power..people will not give it. 

And regarding 60000 applying for 3000 police jobs well they need their bread and butter to run so its just a matter of employment. Most of them will dessert when faced with riots which is famous about J&K police.

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## Prometheus

somebozo said:


> Ok how long India will supressed people of occupied kashmir?? There is no such thing as winning heart and mind..even of you open the whole world treasures to they its highly unlikey that they would give up their fight for freedom. Kashmir do not belong to India they should stop blaming Pakistan and ISI and serious look into the issue.



I was just wondering Why there are protest in valley region only and that also by a particular religion????
answer that and you might get the answer of ur querry

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## somebozo

Prometheus said:


> I was just wondering Why there are protest in valley region only and that also by a particular religion????
> answer that and you might get the answer of ur querry



Well Pakistan movement was also run by people of particular religion and region. Apply the same logic then. If it was accecptable back in 46 then it should be accecptable in 2010 too.



bhagathsingh said:


> Kashmir is indian if balooch is pakistani.





> * On 28 March 1948, the then Khan of Kalat acceded the kalat state to Pakistan in peaceful manner and went on to form the Baluchistan States Union on 3 October 1952 with three neighbouring states. The state of Kalat ceased to exist on 14 October 1955 when the province of West Pakistan was formed.*



Indians have very good principles of manipulating and diverting discussion subject be it real life or forums however very few people are stupid enough to give in. One shall look at the facts and figured before blindly pointing fingers. Baluchistan willfully joined Pakistan and no country in the world considers it a disputed terriotry. J&K on other than is recocnised as disputed world wide. Now lets not bend and twist the discussion by comparing a disputed terriotry with an offical provience of Pakistan. India is a country which has sepratist insurgencies in 70&#37; of its official terriotry where its security forces are getting whooped in broad daylight then resort to terrorising unarmed civilians and women. Tell me one forigen country which has claims on Baluchistan or its boundries>?


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## xyz

Simple Thing

Khali Dimag Shaitan ka Ghar!


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## Star of David

indianrabbit said:


> I agree but problem is you cannot send people in large number in a day and in small number they will kill.



Man stop thinking negative...where there is a will there is a way. Look at Tibet, the Chinese have done it. All Indians should their best to counter the propaganda on Facebook.....whenever you meet a Kashmiri bring it up, don't shy away. Look if the Kashmiri's hate India that much get a visa and walk to ***. Good riddance!


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## RamGorur

somebozo said:


> This clause would only apply if J&K was indian terriotry ever in history which it is not. The Indian propoganda of akhand bharat has not sucessfully brainwashed anyone yet other than Indians themselves.


Prerequisites for a calling a territory as one's own include, legally acceptable mode of accession and de facto control of such territory. Instrument of Accession provides that legal basis to call Jammu and Kashmir as Indian territory.


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## somebozo

Ok so sepration of Bangladesh accecptable but not Kashmir which neither is nor was an integratal part of India.?? Its all about kashmiri resources nothing else. The problem is India established an example of people power of terrorism by helping East-Pakistani dissidents. Now the Kashmiris read the history turning in their favour some time in distant future..

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## anurag_singh

If you(Pakistanis) want plebiscite in kashmir. I want a plebiscite in whole Indian sub-continent to check what people want 1 country or 3 countries.


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## somebozo

RamGorur said:


> The agreed upon mode of accession of Baluchistan was referendum. By same token, the agreed upon mode of mode of accession of all the Princely States was execution of Instrument of Accession. Both were followed in letter and spirit. Hence both are integral parts of Pakistan and India respectively.
> 
> Also, Pakistan doesn't have any claim on Kashmir.



So where is that letter or accession?? Supposedly lost?? Stolen by aliens?? Dissapeared in thin air?? And you seem to forget the clause that all muslim majority areas were to join Pakistan. And it was India and not Pakistan which first unleased the millitary in Kashmir.



anurag_singh said:


> If you(Pakistanis) want plebiscite in kashmir. I want a plebiscite in whole Indian sub-continent to check what people want 1 country or 3 countries.



That doesnt make sense..thats like diverting subject or derailing thread..in any event the outcome will not be in indian favour..they cannot digest the idea of Pakistani and Kashmiri independence let alone breaking india in 20 smaller states.

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## RamGorur

somebozo said:


> Ok so sepration of Bangladesh accecptable but not Kashmir which neither is nor was an integratal part of India.??


Bangladesh had no right to separate till 26th March, 1971. The systematic genocide that followed, gave the Bangalis of East Pakistan the right to secede from Pakistan.



> Its all about kashmiri resources nothing else.


In 1948 (?) India was not at all interested in Kashmir. There is plenty of evidence of that. One being Patel's proposal that Hyderabad be negotiated for Kashmir. But Jinnah wanted it all - Junagad, Kashmir, Hyderabad. Ended up getting none and left us with a cancer.



> The problem is India established an example of people power of terrorism by helping East-Pakistani dissidents. Now the Kashmiris read the history turning in their favour some time in distant future..


Wrong. It was Pakistan which first used insurgents to capture Kashmir.

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## somebozo

RamGorur said:


> Bangladesh had no right to separate till 26th March, 1971. The systematic genocide that followed, gave the Bangalis of East Pakistan the right to secede from Pakistan.





> *While the Pakistan Army attempted to quell the uprisings, which included killings of tens of thousands of non-Bengalis by Bengali rebels,[4] incidents of human rights abuses were carried out by certain sections of the Pakistan Army in East Pakistan*



Aggreed but uprising started by Indian organised terrorist killing sevral non-bengali goverment officals. The retaliation only came from PA. The most foolish part was pre-emptive strike on India which pulled India into conflict on the offensive mode.




> In 1948 (?) India was not at all interested in Kashmir. There is plenty of evidence of that. One being Patel's proposal that Hyderabad be negotiated for Kashmir. But Jinnah wanted it all - Junagad, Kashmir, Hyderabad. Ended up getting none and left us with a cancer.


You forgot the logic..Muslim majority areas were to accede Pakistan. Jinah was never all that curious about Hydrabad because it was logically and physically impossible due to lack of shared border. However Junagarh was hot bed of debate and so was Kashmir being Muslim majority.



> Wrong. It was Pakistan which first used insurgents to capture Kashmir.


Jinnah had to go through refusal of general gracey and organised the tribal millitant forced. This all happened after Jinnah got the news of indian army presense in Kashmir. So how could he be the first to invade????


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## RamGorur

somebozo said:


> So where is that letter or accession?? Supposedly lost?? Stolen by aliens?? Dissapeared in thin air??


I suggest you try something else other than denying the existence of IoA.

(Click on the images to enlarge)











> And you seem to forget the clause that all muslim majority areas were to join Pakistan.


There was no such clause for the Princely States.



> And it was India and not Pakistan which first unleased the millitary in Kashmir.


Perhaps on some other planet, in some parallel Universe. Not on this planet in this Universe.

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## Jade

Separatist dont want AFSPA to be withdrawn, as they will loose this as tool to stoke violence in future. Government has to careful and not fall into this trap. Everything will be OK in two or three days.


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## RamGorur

somebozo said:


> Aggreed but uprising started by Indian organised terrorist killing sevral non-bengali goverment officals. The retaliation only came from PA.


This is the Pakistani version of history. Refer to Richard Sisson and Leo Rose. Don't be surprised if you are surprised.



> Jinnah had to go through refusal of general gracey and organised the tribal millitant forced. This all happened after Jinnah got the news of indian army presense in Kashmir. So how could he be the first to invade????


Why do you think the Maharaja of Kashmir sought help of Indian Army on 24th Oct, 1947? What do you think was happening in Kashmir on 21st Oct, 1947?


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## JanjaWeed

*Anti-India rally held in Kashmir *

something new pls!!


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## civfanatic

Clock Tower Lal Chowk ..Sep -11- 2010





Close up of above 





Eid Gah ...Sep -11 -2010





Lal Chowk on sep 11 2010 Where Clock tower is sitiuated

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## IndianArmy

Today the People In Kashmir Burnt the Govt Buildings, I do not get the Idea why are they disrupting there own Living for the cause of Nothing.... Power House Burnt , What would they achieve by doing this all, They do not Understand that, If a wrath of 1000 separatist could make fire, how much can a Billion people do situated Just below them.... Makes No Sense at all

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## Patrician

IndianArmy said:


> Today the People In Kashmir Burnt the Govt Buildings, I do not get the Idea why are they disrupting there own Living for the cause of Nothing.... Power House Burnt , What would they achieve by doing this all, They do not Understand that, If a wrath of 1000 separatist could make fire, how much can a Billion people do situated Just below them.... Makes No Sense at all



In one simple sentence:

*"The mob has many heads but no brains." - English Proverb*

Just ignore them. We have many more important things in life and country to worry about than a few misled delusional minds.

Let's work for the country and everything else will fall in place in due course of time.

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## r4rehan

civfanatic said:


> Clock Tower Lal Chowk ..Sep -11- 2010
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Close up of above
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eid Gah ...Sep -11 -2010
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lal Chowk on sep 11 2010 Where Clock tower is sitiuated



ALLAH bless u our beloved mujahideen of Islam and Pakistan and Kashmir...
keep doing the jihad(Straggle) in every Street of Kashmir with protest,,,, u'll be successed inshaa ALLAH,,,, 

<(_|_)| AKBAR


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## EjazR

*The Hindu : States / Other States : Violent protests in Srinagar after Eid prayers*

_Police accuse the Hurriyat Conference's hardline fraction of taking advantage of the Eid congregation and inciting violence in the city._

Rampaging mobs on Saturday set on fire some public properties including the Crime Branch office and a police guard post in Hazratbal Shrine as violence marred Eid-ul-Fitr celebrations in Srinagar city.

*Police blamed activists of hard line faction of Hurriyat Conference led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Muslim league headed by underground separatist leader Masrat Alam Bhat for carrying out the incidents of arson as part of a pre-planned conspiracy to disrupt Eid celebrations.*

Soon after a protest rally organised by separatist leaders at Lal Chowk, a group of youth barged into the office of Chief Engineer Power Development Department (PDD) near Exhibition Crossing here and set it on fire.

The adjacent building housing the Crime Branch office was also engulfed in flames within no time and the blaze spread rapidly as the building is mostly made of wood.

Police had been clearly instructed that there should be no firing on the mob. Several rounds were fired in air to disperse the mob and fire tenders were pressed into service to douse the flames.

Senior police officials led by Director General of Police (DGP) Kuldeep Khoda rushed to the spot to bring the situation under control.

So far, there are no reports of anyone getting injured in the firing incident.

The rally at Lal Chowk was organised jointly by several separatist leaders including Moderate Hurriyat chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, JKLF Chairman Mohammad Yasin Malik and acting chairman of hard line faction Nissar Hussain Rather.

The separatist activists hoisted several objectionable flags atop the clock tower. The tower, which was recently renovated by the Srinagar Municipal Corporation, suffered damage as several youth climbed atop it.

The Mirwaiz called for an half-an-hour sit in protest in the heart of the city and later left for his home despite assurances made by him that the crowd will disperse quietly after the sit-in.

During his Eid sermon at Eidgah, where thousands of people offered prayers, the Mirwaiz asked them to march to Lal Chowk to stage a 30-minute protest against the recent killing of people in Kashmir.

Earlier, a mob set on fire a police barrack and a vehicle of the police department outside the Harzratbal Shrine on the banks of the Dal lake here following which security forces had to open fire.

Soon after Eid-ul-Fitr prayers, a group of people attacked the police barrack in the lawns of Hazratbal and set it on fire. They also set ablaze a police vehicle.

Police opened fire to disperse the mob and prevent any further damage to public property, they said adding seven persons including three cops were hurt in the clashes.

Police spokesman said activists of hardline faction of Hurriyat Conference led by Geelani and Muslim League disrupted Eid prayers at Hazaratbal and set afire the Auqaf building housing the policemen and a police vehicle.

Timely and prompt action of the fire service and police stopped the fire from spreading. The mob was dispersed. However, the situation is tense, he said and accused the Mirwaiz of aggravating the situation by leading a procession to Lal Chowk, taking the advantage of the Eid congregation.

He (the Mirwaiz) has vitiated the Eid celebration in Srinagar, the spokesman said, adding the administration and police were exercising maximum restraint and have appealed to the people to cooperate with the administration.

The police spokesman said the workers of the Hurriyat and Muslim League, who had in a pre-planned manner disrupted the peaceful prayers at Hazratbal, have been identified.

Investigation reveals that these elements had planned in advance to provoke the administration and use the Eid congregating to disrupt festivities and create the misconception this was a popular movement, he said.

The spokesman said the arrests at Kulgam on Thursday had found that hardline Hurriyat Conference has been using hooligans to force people to participate in the strikes and protests.

This is for the first time that an Eid congregation has been converted into protest and the people of Srinagar have not been allowed to celebrate Eid peacefully, the spokesman said, adding it seems that people by and large are being held hostage by elements with vested interests.

Meanwhile, traffic police posts at Jahangir Chowk and Regal chowk were also set on fire. The plastic road dividers, used by the traffic police for regulating traffic, were also torched at many places.

----------------------------------

So much for peaceful protests, this will be just make the backlash so much stronger against the sepratists.


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## Patrician

@ mods Plz take notice, the thread is going haywire.


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## somebozo

bhagathsingh said:


> only bullets will answer terrorists nothing can seperate kashmir from india.



Well in Indian opinion they are always right and everyone else is wrong this is expressed from an average indian all the way to government so there is no point arguing or trolling..

The so called maharaja did not control the whole of disputed region..only J&K and we are willing to have a talk over that..But Indians wet dream about including whole of northern Pakistan in their claims which is unaccecptable at best. Nobody recognises Indian claims over such.

And if accession of maharaja is all that significant to "idols of ethics" indian then shall we also talk about state of Jnunagarth. What kind of mentality is this - what ever belongs to me is mine but whatever belongs to you is also mine??? Lets talk on fair points..if India honours pieces of paper with utmost importance then we shall reciprocate..otherwise gun is the only way of resolution.



> The Instrument of Accession dated 15 September 1947 reads as follows:
> 
> INSTRUMENT OF ACCESSION DATED 15TH SEPTEMBER, 1947 BETWEEN JUNAGADH & PAKISTAN
> WHEREAS the Indian Independence Act, 1947 provides that as from the fifteenth day of August, 1947, there shall be set up an independent Dominion known as Pakistan and that the Government of India Act, 1935, shall, with such omissions, additions, adaptations and modifications as the Governor General may order, specify, be applicable to the dominion of Pakistan.
> AND WHEREAS the Government of India Act, 1935, as so adopted by the Governor General provides that an Indian State may accede to the Dominion of Pakistan by an Instrument of Accession executed by the Ruler thereof, NOW THEREFORE
> I, Mohobat Khan Ruler of Junagadh State, in exercise of my sovereignty in and over my said State do hereby execute this my instrument of Accession, and
> 1. I hereby declare that I accede to Dominion of Pakistan with the intent that the Governor General of Pakistan, the Dominion Legislature, the Supreme Court and any other Dominion shall by virtue of this my instrument of Accession, but subject always to the terms thereof, and for the purposes only of the Dominion, exercise in relation to the State of Jungadh (hereinafter referred to as &#8220;this State&#8221 such functions as may be vested in them by or under the Government of India Act, 1935, as in force in the Dominion of Pakistan on the 15th day of August, 1947 (which Act as so in force is hereinafter referred as &#8220;the Act&#8221.
> 2. I, hereby assume the obligation of ensuring that due effect is given to the provisions of the Act within this state so far as they are applicable therein by virtue of t his my instrument of Accession.
> 3. I accept the matters specified in the Schedule hereto as the matters with respect to which the Dominion Legislature may make laws for this State.
> 4. I hereby declare that I accede to the Dominion of Pakistan on the assurance that if an agreement is made between the Governor General and the Ruler of this State whereby any functions in relation to the administration in this state of any law of the Dominion Legislature shall be exercised by the Ruler of this State, then any such agreement shall be construed and have effect accordingly.
> 5. Nothing in the Instrument shall empower the Dominion Legislature to make any law for this State authorizing the compulsory acquisition of land for any purpose, but I hereby undertake that should the Dominion for the purpose of a Dominion law which applies in this State deem it necessary to acquire and land, I will at their request acquire the land at their expense or if the land belongs to me transfer it to them on such terms as may be agreed, or, in default of agreement determined by an arbitrator to be appointed by the Chief Justice of Pakistan.
> 6. The terms of this my instrument of Accession shall not be varied by any amendment of the Act or of the Indian Independence Act, 1947, unless such amendment is accepted by me by an Instrument supplementary to this Instrument.
> 7. Nothing in this Instrument shall be deemed to commit me in any way to acceptance of any future Constitution of Pakistan or to fetter my discretion to enter into arrangements with the Government of Pakistan under any such future Constitution.
> 8. Nothing in this Instrument effects the continuance of my sovereignty in and over this state, or, save as provided by or sovereignty in and over this state, or, save as provided by or under this Instrument, the exercise of any powers, authority and rights now enjoyed by me as Ruler of this State of the validity of any law at present in force in this State.
> 9. I hereby declare that I execute this Instrument on behalf of this State and that any reference in this Instrument to me or to the Ruler of the State is to be construed as including a reference to my heirs and successors.
> Given under my hand this Fourteenth day of September, Nineteen Hundred and forty-seven.
> [Signed] Mahabat Khan, Ruler of Junagadh
> This was countersigned:
> 
> I do hereby accept this Instrument of Accession, Date this Fifteenth day of September, Nineteen Hundred and forty-seven.
> [Signed] M. A. Jinnah
> Governor General of Pakistan
> This was notified in the Gazette of Pakistan and Dasturul Amal, the Gazette of Junagadh, on that date.
> 
> The Instrument of Accession provided for the right of Pakistan legislature to legislate in the areas of Defence and Communication, as well as others.
> 
> Although the territory of Junagadh was geographically not adjoining the existing Pakistan, it had a link by sea through the Verawal Port of Junagadh.



So this way we are going back to square one - akhand bharat.

No wonder the chinese figured it out no stablity for Asia until india is balkanized?? So whats next?? India claims on Afghanistan, parts of Persia, central asia even Brazil and Italy??



Nehru said:


> In view of special circumstances pointed out by Junagadh Dewan that is the Prime Minister of Junagadh &#8211; our Regional Commissioner at Rajkot has taken temporarily charge of Junagadh administration. This has been done to avoid disorder and resulting chaos. We have, however, no desire to continue this arrangement and wish to find a speedy solution in accordance with the wishes of the people of Junagadh. We have pointed out to you previously that final decision should be made by means of referendum or plebiscite. We would be glad to discuss this question and allied matters affecting Junagadh with representatives of your Government at the earliest possible moment convenient to you. We propose to invite Nawab of Junagadh to send his representatives to this conference.





GoP Reply said:


> Your telegram informing that your Government had taken charge of Junagadh was received by me on November 10, 1947. Your action in taking over State Administration and sending Indian troops to state without any authority from Pakistan Government and indeed without our knowledge, is a clear violation of Pakistan territory and breach of International law. Indian Government&#8217;s activities on accession of Junagadh to Pakistan have all been directed to force the State to renounce accession and all kinds of weapons have been used by you to achieve this end. We consider your action in taking charge of Junagadh Administration and sending Indian troops to occupy Junagadh to be a direct act of hostility against Pakistan Dominion. We demand that you should immediately withdraw your forces, and relinquish charge of administration to the rightful ruler and stop people of Union of India from invading Junagadh and committing acts of violence.



So its instrument of accession when it favours them and plesbistite when it favours them. Classic brahmin self center politics of duplicity??

And to the fanboys of Mughal empire please it was an utter failure and mughals were not even proven muslim by any standards..

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## somebozo

r4rehan said:


> they just rule 100 years but We(Muslim) rule 1000zz year did u forget our favour ??? We Muslim gave u peace in ur own area if u wana peace in ur country so just find ture muslim parson and give him a leader's chair,,,, but be care full there can be so called muslim like our leader my brother i cares abt u that's why im saying this love u :-*



Indian defination of true muslim is self styled and appointed scholars like Khal Naik. Please stop trolling we dont want Indian muslims to rule us..Pakistani nation is already paying a heavy price of allowing an alien named Moulana Moododi!


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## nForce

r4rehan said:


> hahaha nothing but just(ARTS) stches draw by hand
> any prove or evidence ???????



Refer to The Mughal Empire Volume 1, Volume 5 by John F. Richards...


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## r4rehan

Prism said:


> and most of the pakistanis claim to be the friends of sikh and they made videos that sikh willl support pakistan in war with india.



if they will then what u'll do
and we don't need any one yaar we can do every thing alonly
if they will then it'll be their choice


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## Paan Singh

hawa nikaal di yaar

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## Paan Singh

MBI Munshi said:


> I think you will find people will want 10 countries with 8 coming out of India's A$$.



i will see for how much time your suffer the bay of bengal rising water,i m eager to see who will go to whom ***


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## nForce

r4rehan said:


> they just rule 100 years but We(Muslim) rule 1000zz year did u forget our favour ??? We Muslim gave u peace in ur own area if u wana peace in ur country so just find ture muslim parson and give him a leader's chair,,,, but be care full there can be so called muslim like our leader my brother i cares abt u that's why im saying this love u :-*



1000 years is an ambiguous statement....India as we see it today was never controlled totally by any Muslim ruler.The largest territory that was controlled by any Muslim ruler,was by the Mughal ruler Aurangzeb.He too could not control the whole of India due to the presence of the Maratha.

I would very much like to know how did the Muslim rulers gave peace.As I see it,India is a peaceful land.Many invaders came to India from time to time,stayed here and became one of us and lived peacefully.


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## Patrician

@ mods, the thread has degenerated to personal attacks and needless country bashing. Kindly take notice.


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## Rajput Warrior

SRINAGAR,indian occupied KASHMIR... ANTI INDIA RALLY
*
PAKISTANI FLAG HOISTED!!!*


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## nForce

@Rajput Warrior 


If you had looked into this thred keenly,then you would have found out that the picture has been posted already.Refer to page 3.


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## somebozo

r4rehan said:


> yaar he is right about our current leader ship that's why we are just bring revalution in pakistan and wana change this system ...... we are bring here khilafat in pak the systm which rule the world abt 1400 years
> 
> sorry today is our eid so i have to go my frnd talk to u later bye
> i love u all my frndz and all my ennmy :-*



Khilafat essentialy means arab imperialism and never really survived the initial phase where all Khalifas were assasinated one by one. The longest running Islamic empire was ottoman which was at best secular, progressive and elective in its political constitution.


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## T-Faz

*Stick to topic and do not bring in other issues to divert from the subject.*

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## somebozo

r4rehan said:


> yaar he is right about our current leader ship that's why we are just bring revalution in pakistan and wana change this system ...... we are bring here khilafat in pak the systm which rule the world abt 1400 years
> 
> sorry today is our eid so i have to go my frnd talk to u later bye
> i love u all my frndz and all my ennmy :-*



Khilafat essentialy means arab imperialism and never really survived the initial phase where all Khalifas were assasinated one by one. The longest running Islamic empire was ottoman which was at best secular, progressive and elective in its political constitution.


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## SnIPeR Xr

nForce said:


> @Rajput Warrior
> 
> 
> If you had looked into this thred keenly,then you would have found out that the picture has been posted already.Refer to page 3.



Yes we can understand that an immense fire is burning inside you  After watching this pic again & again 

Sorry but you have to feel the heat.Because no one has a right to go against the will & desire of human biengs(according to the norms of human civilization) especially when they are opressed,their rights are not reaching to them & freedom is snatched from them by the supressors


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## nForce

SnIPeR Xr said:


> Yes we can understand that an immense fire is burning inside you  After watching this pic again & again
> 
> Sorry but you have to feel the heat.Because no one has a right to go against the will & desire of human biengs(according to the norms of human civilization) especially when they are opressed,their rights are not reaching to them & freedom is snatched from them by the supressors



cant be anymore wrong..Its just yet another protest movement....Personally I am more concerned with the remote parts of India where there is significant lack of development and less options for livelihood.

Kashmir,though not one of the top GDP earner for India is more or less economically stable.But employment issue is still there.Most of the protest movements can be traced back to unemployment.

You will be surprised to know that some of the youth who were throwing stones in rallies of anti-India protest movements were also found in the recruitment drives of the Indian Army.What does this tell us?? Idealogy is not the issue here,unemployment is.


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## RamGorur

somebozo said:


> The so called maharaja did not control the whole of disputed region..only J&K and we are willing to have a talk over that..But Indians wet dream about including whole of northern Pakistan in their claims which is unaccecptable at best. Nobody recognises Indian claims over such.


I believe UN recognizes such Indian claims. Although Pakistan maintains a fa&#231;ade of rejecting Indian claim over NA, it still chose to include the following clause in an agreement between Pakistan and China while ceding away Shaksagam Valley to China.

"_The two parties have agreed that *after the settlement of the Kashmir dispute* between Pakistan and India, *the sovereign authority concerned* will reopen negotiations with the Government of the People's Republic of China on the boundary as described in Article. Two of the present agreement, so as to sign a formal boundary treaty to replace the present agreement, provided that *in the event of the sovereign authority being Pakistan*, the provisions of the present agreement and of the aforesaid protocol shall be maintained in the formal boundary treaty to be signed between the People&#8217;s Republic of China and the Islamic Republic of Pakistan." [Article 6; Sino-Pakistan Frontier Agreement]_

It means that Pakistan also accepts that sovereignty of NA remains undecided as yet, which is basically tacitly accepting India&#8217;s claim to NA.

That being said, today, after Simla Agreement, India no longer maintains that claim. India&#8217;s proposal of converting LoC into IB is an indication of this position.



> And if accession of maharaja is all that significant to "idols of ethics" indian then shall we also talk about state of Jnunagarth. What kind of mentality is this - what ever belongs to me is mine but whatever belongs to you is also mine??? Lets talk on fair points..if India honours pieces of paper with utmost importance then we shall reciprocate..otherwise gun is the only way of resolution.
> 
> [&#8230;]
> 
> So its instrument of accession when it favours them and plesbistite when it favours them. Classic brahmin self center politics of duplicity??


Contrary to usual Pakistani narrative, India had never rejected the legality of IoA in case of Junagadh. India&#8217;s position was that the _accession _was not in good faith and demanded that it be reversed by _Pakistan_, by canceling the IoA, or in the event of Pakistan&#8217;s refusal, by a plebiscite. This actually presupposes that accession of Junagadh to Pakistan was legally complete by virtue of IoA. India did follow it up with Kashmir as well. IoA was accepted with a promise to hold plebiscite when law and order could be restored. Where is the duplicity here?


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## RamGorur

Rajput Warrior said:


> SRINAGAR,indian occupied KASHMIR... ANTI INDIA RALLY
> *
> PAKISTANI FLAG HOISTED!!!*


These bozos want to be with a country whose flag they don't know how to hoist properly.

The flag is upside down.

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## jha

This Omar Abdulla is proving to be the weakest chief minister in J&K.
All the possessions should be stopped with immediate effect and the moronic separatists should be thrown to where they belong.


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## civfanatic

jha said:


> This Omar Abdulla is proving to be the weakest chief minister in J&K.
> All the possessions should be stopped with immediate effect and the moronic separatists should be thrown to where they belong.



They are already there ie where they belong to ....Kashmir


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## Paan Singh

SnIPeR Xr said:


> Yes we can understand that an immense fire is burning inside you  After watching this pic again & again
> 
> Sorry but you have to feel the heat.Because no one has a right to go against the will & desire of human biengs(according to the norms of human civilization) especially when they are opressed,their rights are not reaching to them & freedom is snatched from them by the supressors



there is no fire inside us coz we know nothing will change.btw u r burning coz u also know nothing will change but u dream that change will take place which is a dream in deed.


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## bc040400065

nForce said:


> @Rajput Warrior
> 
> 
> If you had looked into this thred keenly,then you would have found out that the picture has been posted already.Refer to page 3.



*here is it again... please open your eyes India...... Face the reality...*


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## somebozo

RamGorur said:


> Contrary to usual Pakistani narrative, India had never rejected the legality of IoA in case of Junagadh. *India&#8217;s position was that the accession was not in good faith and demanded that it be reversed by Pakistan, *by canceling the IoA, or in the event of Pakistan&#8217;s refusal, by a plebiscite. This actually presupposes that accession of Junagadh to Pakistan was legally complete by virtue of IoA. India did follow it up with Kashmir as well. *IoA was accepted with a promise to hold plebiscite when law and order could be restored*. Where is the duplicity here?



So just because the IoA was not in their favour it was fair to invade and hold a plesbestite?? So we come back to the policy of "what ever is mine is mine but whatever is yours is also mine". Why did indian forces invade Junagarth first place when IoA was already signed?? Wasnt that a breach?? So we also demand that accession of Kashmir was not in good faith and be reversed!

In plain words..

IoA in case of Kashmir in favour of India = accecptable
IoA in case of Junagarth in favour of Pakistan = nonaccecptable, invade and hold a plesbestite.

So again going by your logic the people of Kashmir wish to join Pakistan or independence hence there should be a plesbestite too under UN Supervision since the demographics are significantly different than Junagarth. Pakistan questions the validity of Kashmir IoA in same sense Indians questioned the validity of Junagarth IoA. Its a fair play.

And i think Kasmiri flag is opposite of Pakistani flag. They couldnt be hoisting it upside down in every pic. Nobody is that dumb! This way they could signify their importance towards Pakistan while maintaing a clear "independence" tone and not sending any false signals of acceding to Pakistan.


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## bc040400065

RamGorur said:


> These bozos want to be with a country whose flag they don't know how to hoist properly.
> 
> The flag is upside down.



This is the feeling from the heart so please accept the reality.. Atleast Pakistan's flag is not having the same treatment which the indian flag normally gets in kashmir. 
2ndly These are kashmiris feeling from their heart so whether it is upside down or whatever .. It's their love for this flag  that is clearly visible. You just have to open your eyes and mind and face the reality and accept the will of the Kashmiris . Because India claims to be the biggest Democracy so i think they should accept the people's right to live as they want.


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## somebozo

Ok ISI and Pakistan also had a hand in this..

You can fool some people all the time, all people some of the time but not all the people all the time. A perfect scenerio for Indian Kashmir policy!


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## Bas_tum_Pak

Pakistan Flag flying high at Lal Chowk, Srinagar in Indian Occupied Kashmir

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## Hulk

Prism said:


> YouTube - Hasan Nisar Exposes The Elite Class of His Country
> 
> hawa nikaal di yaar



This guy is very impressive. Forgot about topic but I like the depth he had.


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## Patriot

Awesome!Hope they get aazadi .


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## tiaverma

acc to me goood sol is separate the area which want freedom jammu and ladak region want to say with india 
2nd sol is drop nuclear bomb in kashmir


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## Fireurimagination

civfanatic said:


> They are already there ie where they belong to ....Kashmir



No he meant in Kashmir but inside a 4' by 4' dark cell hanging upside down with no clothes


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## Areesh

RamGorur said:


> These bozos want to be with a country whose flag they don't know how to hoist properly.
> 
> The flag is upside down.



They can correct the mistake anytime after the independence.


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## civfanatic

somebozo said:


> And i think Kasmiri flag is opposite of Pakistani flag. They couldnt be hoisting it upside down in every pic. Nobody is that dumb! This way they could signify their importance towards Pakistan while maintaing a clear "independence" tone and not sending any false signals of acceding to Pakistan.



It is a pakistani flag guys do get it wrong sometimes in the rush of moment and there is no kashmiri flag however there are flags of JKLF,Tehrik-i-Hurriyat and Hurriyat Confrence.

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## Areesh

somebozo said:


> And i think Kasmiri flag is opposite of Pakistani flag. They couldnt be hoisting it upside down in every pic. Nobody is that dumb! This way they could signify their importance towards Pakistan while maintaing a clear "independence" tone and not sending any false signals of acceding to Pakistan.



It is a Pakistani flag yaar. For God's sake. 

The message is very clear I guess.


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## Paan Singh

Areesh said:


> It is a Pakistani flag yaar. For God's sake.
> 
> The message is very clear I guess.



it's treatment is also very clear


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## somebozo

Well if its a Pakistani flag and they are hoisting it upside down then that a gesture of extreme disrespect. I dont think they could be making the same mistake at every event.


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## Areesh

somebozo said:


> Well if its a Pakistani flag and they are hoisting it upside down then that a gesture of extreme disrespect. I dont think they could be making the same mistake at every event.



Ok next time when they hoist Pak flag in the rain of bullets and tear gas shells they would surely rectify their "mistake".

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## magg

> Ok next time when they hoist Pak flag in the rain of bullets and tear gas shells they would surely rectify their "mistake".


This just shows how much paid guys are there in the protest. The real Kashmiris protesters only want independence and not to be sided with PAK.


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## S_O_C_O_M

somebozo said:


> Well if its a Pakistani flag and they are hoisting it upside down then that a gesture of extreme disrespect. I dont think they could be making the same mistake at every event.



*No, this is a common misperception. A flag hoisted upside down is a "signal of distress." So the Kashmiris would obviously not want to hoist an indian flag no matter what the case is. The Kashmiris are not disrespecting Pakistan nor the Pakistani flag. *



> Distress - denoted by flying the Pakistan flag upside-down



http://www.flags-flags-flags.org.uk/pakistan-flag.htm

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## RamGorur

somebozo said:


> So just because the IoA was not in their favour it was fair to invade and hold a plesbestite?? So we come back to the policy of "what ever is mine is mine but whatever is yours is also mine". Why did indian forces invade Junagarth first place when IoA was already signed?? Wasnt that a breach??
> 
> []
> 
> In plain words..
> 
> IoA in case of Kashmir in favour of India = accecptable
> IoA in case of Junagarth in favour of Pakistan = nonaccecptable, invade and hold a plesbestite.


A mod has already warned us to stick to the topic and I dont think an elaborate discussion on Junagadh is relevant to the topic. However since you asked, here goes.

India didnt invade. What India did is accepted by all conons of international law as intervention. The International Commission on Intervention and Sovereignty (ICISS) states the following in their paper The Responsibility to Protect:

_"A. State sovereignty implies responsibility, and the primary responsibility for the protection of its people lies with the state itself.

B. Where a population is suffering serious harm, as a result of internal war, insurgency, repression or state failure, and the state in question is unwilling or unable to halt or avert it, the principle of non-intervention yields to the international responsibility to protect."_

Junagadh although was a de jure sovereignty of Pakistan, Pakistan failed to take de facto control of it for over a month since its accession, with no sign of it being able take control in immediate future. Meanwhile, as a result of the States accession to Pakistan severe riots broke out resulting in complete break down of the State. The only sensible and humane thing to do at that time was for India to step in and take control of it, given that Pakistan was _unable to halt or avert_ the _serious harm, as a result of state failure_. 

Holding of plebiscite was an inevitable logical step after that.


> So we also demand that accession of Kashmir was not in good faith and be reversed!


To make that demand you have to first accept that Kashmir had acceded to India. Unfortunately your country doesnt accept that. Something (IoA) that is not accepted at all, cant be reversed. 


> So again going by your logic the people of Kashmir wish to join Pakistan or independence hence there should be a plesbestite too under UN Supervision since the demographics are significantly different than Junagarth.


No can do. A lot of things have happened since Junagadh all of which have made Junagadh redundant. India had voluntarily proposed a plebiscite in all three states  Kashmir, Junagadh and Hyderabad  under UN supervision. It was rejected by Jinnah, no less. Later at the UN India had agreed to plebiscite on the condition that Pakistan must vacate Kashmir. The condition remains unfulfilled. 

If you want plebiscite under UN supervision you have to either abide by the already existing resolutions in this regard, and withdraw from Kashmir first, or pass fresh ones.


> Pakistan questions the validity of Kashmir IoA in same sense Indians questioned the validity of Junagarth IoA. Its a fair play.


No, its not a fair play. Pakistan questions the legal validity of IoA itself, on grounds of fraud and coercion. (Jinnah got a rebuke from Mountbatten for this) This means that accession of Kashmir is null and void as far as Pakistan is concerned. On the other hand India didnt question the legal validity of IoA executed by the Nawab of Junagadh. India questioned the wisdom of such accession in clear breach of the principles governing the accession of Princely States. 

It is not that difficult to see the difference.


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## Jade

One thing for sure, yesterdays violence was the biggest dent in the so called movement by the Separatists. By hoisting Pakistani Flag, they have made it clear who is actually behind the violence, and what is their objective. Now it is clear that the mass are not behind the movement


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## MZUBAIR

Shame on those troops


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## Omar1984

jade1982 said:


> *Now it is clear that the mass are not behind the movement*



Oh really?

*Eid Festival Sparks Protests, Clashes in Kashmir*

*Tens of thousands of protesters *have taken to the streets of Indian Kashmir, some setting fire to a police station and other government offices.

Protesters filed into the streets of the main city of Srinagar following prayers for the Muslim festival of Eid-al-Fitr Saturday, *many waving green flags and chanting, "Go India, go back," and, "We want freedom."*

Following the violence, police tried to disperse the crowds by opening fire with live ammunition and tear gas. No casualties have been confirmed.

*For the past three months, Kashmir has been gripped by nearly daily protests against Indian rule. At least 69 demonstrators have been killed in the unrest, many after security forces opened fire on stone-throwing crowds.* 

Officials in Kashmir blamed separatist leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq for inciting the violence when he called for Kashmiris to join the protests during prayers marking the end of the Muslim fasting month of Ramadan.

Earlier on Saturday, officials released fellow separatist leader Syed Ali Geelani.

Indian police arrested Geelani earlier this week after he threatened to intensify protests against Indian rule.

Various Muslim separatist groups in Kashmir have been waging a decades-long struggle for independence from India or a merger with Muslim-majority Pakistan.


Eid Festival Sparks Protests, Clashes in Kashmir | Asia | English


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## S_O_C_O_M

Give Kashmiris their plebiscite, the one they were promised under the ruling of the United Nations. It's got something to do with the idea of 'democracy', a notion indians brag about. Self-determination is what Kashmiris want.


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## Hulk

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Give Kashmiris their plebiscite, the one they were promised under the ruling of the United Nations. It's got something to do with the idea of 'democracy', a notion indians brag about. Self-determination is what Kashmiris want.



Kashmiri's are at best confused people.
1) The UN Plebiscite had some pre conditions.
2) Kashmiri's are not party to UN resolutions.
3) UN resolutions are not mandatory
4) Its only 4 districts of a state, rest are fine.
5) Not even a single none Muslim from valley is with them.
6) Kashmiri themselves have raped and murdered fellow Hindus. So much for their innocence. 
7) If life is difficult their for them, they themselves are responsible for it, as they are behaving like cry baby.


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## alibaz

bandit said:


> Read this - this is just a government job - wonder what treasures would get them to do.
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: Khaki enemy? *60000 Kashmiris apply for 3000 police jobs - The Times of India* Khaki enemy? 60000 Kashmiris apply for 3000 police jobs - The Times of India



What Taliban are doin with ANA. Get training, weapon and equipment and desert. any thought given?


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## alibaz

anurag_singh said:


> If you(Pakistanis) want plebiscite in kashmir. I want a plebiscite in whole Indian sub-continent to check what people want 1 country or 3 countries.



Only 3 countries with 17 separatist movements in India.


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## somebozo

The best face saving exercise indians have got in kashmir matter is false propoganda.



jade1982 said:


> One thing for sure, yesterday&#8217;s violence was the biggest dent in the so called movement by the Separatists. By hoisting Pakistani Flag, they have made it clear who is actually behind the violence, and what is their objective. Now it is clear that the mass are not behind the movement



Thou shall find every hint to blame Pakistan?? So what that Pakistani flag manufactured in Faisalabad??? Did ISI supply it to them through LeT? It was hoisted upside down..damn the Kashmiris for their lack of manners..We take the risk of infiltrating them some freedom flag and they cant even fix it right..seriously Pakistan blaming is getting so ridiculous now..You actually make us feel good..keeping 700K of your army engaged in Kashmir, daily media embarassments by protests and the "big" country cant do anything?? 

Even the Bangladeshis did not "indianise" the way Indra was wet dreaming and now they have to resort to rigged elections with slave AL to project a positive image.


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## IndianArmy

somebozo said:


> The best face saving exercise indians have got in kashmir matter is false propoganda.



We dont need a Propaganda.... World is Seeing atrocities done from both the end.....


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## alibaz

somebozo said:


> Khilafat essentialy means arab imperialism and never really survived the initial phase where all Khalifas were assasinated one by one. The longest running Islamic empire was ottoman which was at best secular, progressive and elective in its political constitution.



One, all Khulafa were not assassinated and second, no one was assassinated for grabbing power. Please correct your record


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## Kompromat

Hail Kashmiris


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## EjazR

*Buildings Are Set Ablaze During Protests in Kashmir*

NEW DELHI &#8212; Thousands of demonstrators staged a violent protest in Kashmir on Saturday, setting fire to a police office and other government buildings in the latest angry outburst after three months of almost daily Muslim protests against Indian rule in the Himalayan region. 

Security forces reportedly fired into the air to dispel the crowds. There were no deaths, but three civilians and two police officers were injured, according to the authorities.

The demonstrations came after Muslims in Kashmir had finished their prayers for Id al-Fitr, the festival culminating the holy fasting month of Ramadan. Thousands of Muslims swept through the city of Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian-held Kashmir, with some protesters torching the office of a government power company and a police administrative office, which were closed for the holiday.

In Jammu and Kashmir, the police attributed Saturday&#8217;s violence to the leader of a moderate Muslim group, the Hurriyat Conference. Kuldip Khoda, the police director general, said that the authorities had granted permission to the group&#8217;s leader, Mirwaiz Umer Farooq, to lead a march on Id al-Fitr after receiving reassurances that it would be peaceful. Instead, Officer Khoda said protesters attacked the power company and began rampaging through Srinagar.

&#8220;Public property was set on flames on the day which is a day of peace,&#8221; Officer Khoda said in a statement.

He said officers had exercised restraint, despite attacks against police vehicles and officers. In recent months, the Indian authorities have been criticized for firing on stone-throwing protesters with live ammunition. At least 70 people have been killed during the bloody summer.

The violence is the latest setback to bringing peace and order after a bloody summer in Kashmir that began with the death of a teenager struck by a tear-gas canister. Since then, thousands of rock-throwing demonstrators have defied government curfews, demanding the removal of Indian troops from the region, which is claimed by both Pakistan and India.

In the 1990s, Indian paramilitary forces poured into the Kashmir Valley to fight an insurgency backed by Pakistan. Thousands of those officers have remained and their prolonged presence has become a central complaint of separatists. Officers enjoy special immunity from prosecution under the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, and many Kashmiris say this immunity has led to human rights abuses.

On Saturday morning, before the protests, there were reports in the Indian news media that the government was considering a good-will gesture on the holiday, like the release of some political prisoners and the lifting of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act from some areas in the region.

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## EjazR

*Kashmir burns on Eid, Omar slams separatists (Roundup)*

New Delhi, Sep 11 (IANS) Hundreds of young people screaming separatist slogans unleashed an orgy of unprecedented violence after mass Eid prayers in Srinagar Saturday, attacking police and government buildings in a frenzy that also saw violence in two smaller towns of the Kashmir Valley.

As the prayers ended at the famed Sufi shrine of Hazratbal in the morning, thousands egged on by moderate separatist leaders Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Yasin Malik marched to the city centre Lal Chowk, indulging in arson attacks that took the Jammu and Kashmir administration by surprise.

It was one of the most violent days in Srinagar, the urban hub of a Muslim separatist drive raging since 1989 that has left thousands dead but shows no signs of ending.

As police and paramilitary personnel refrained from firing at the mobs so as not to kill civilians, the crowds went on an arson spree, starting right from the Hazratbal shrine where police barracks within the complex were set on fire.

The Mirwaiz-led procession later broke into smaller groups that torched the building of the state electricity department and offices of the Crime Branch of the Jammu and Kashmir Police, witnesses and officials said.

Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, who was in New Delhi for consultations with Indian leaders, charged the separatist leaders with 'betrayal' and accused the men who led the prayers of provoking their supporters to resort to violence.

In no time, it became apparent that the violence had been carefully planned and executed, knowing well that the administration would hesitate to kill on a holy day like Eid.

As the first batch from the Hazratbal reached Lal Chowk, hundreds of young men riding motorcycles gathered there raising pro-independence slogans. Some climbed the historic clock tower and hoisted green flags - a colour that symbolizes Islam.

A policeman from the Crime Branch was beaten mercilessly with an iron rod, leading to his hospitalization.

One mob attacked the women police station in Rambagh area and the nearby office of the superintendent of police.

Giant flames rose in the sky as violence spread rapidly in Srinagar. Traffic on the roads quickly came to a halt and panic gripped the city as wild rumours did the rounds.

Police said mobs also attacked police stations in north Kashmir's Sopore and south Kashmir's Pulwama towns.

In Srinagar and other towns of the valley, authorities had not imposed curfew or restrictions Saturday to allow people to offer Eid prayers and celebrate the festival.

Police and the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) were posted at various sensitive places. But despite provocative slogans by the mobs, they enforced restraint and only fired gunshots in the air.

Speaking to reporters in New Delhi, a visibly anguished Abdullah decried the violence in Kashmir as 'highly condemnable and unfortunate'.

'The separatists have betrayed us by provoking the mobs to violence,' he said, accusing the separatists of triggering unprovoked violence on a day of 'festivities and peace'.

The chief minister said Yasin Malik, who heads the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF), had contacted his office and sought official approval for protests on Eid.

'While we permitted peaceful demonstrations, you saw what happened,' Abdullah said, adding the 'whole campaign of the separatists that the security forces have been provoking violence has been exposed'.

In Srinagar, the chief minister's office disclosed that the Mirwaiz, who heads the so-called moderate wing of the Hurriyat Conference, had spoken to Abdullah Friday assuring him that the prayer congregations in Srinagar would remain peaceful.

A home ministry official in New Delhi told IANS that the central government 'was monitoring the tense situation'.

'There are sufficient forces stationed in the valley. We will respond as the situation develops,' he added.

*In Srinagar, Director General of Police Kuldeep Khoda praised his men and the paramilitary forces for showing 'extreme restraint in view of Eid'.*

'The elements (separatists) who led the procession were bent upon provoking tension,' he added.

*Police blamed activists of the hardline Hurriyat group led by Syed Ali Geelani, who favours Jammu and Kashmir's merger with Pakistan, for the violence.*

*'Workers of the Hurriyat (Geelani) and Muslim League, who have been identified, disrupted the peaceful prayers at Hazratbal. Investigation reveals that these elements had planned in advance to provoke the administration and use the Eid congregations to disrupt festivities and create the misconception that this was a popular movement,' a police statement said.*

'(The) Geelani faction has been using hooligans to force people to participate in the protests,' it said.

'This is the first time Eid congregations have been converted into protests and the people of Srinagar have not been allowed to celebrate Eid peacefully,' it said. 'Seeing the gathering at Eidgah and Lal Chowk, it seems that people by and large are being held hostage by the vested elements.'

Saturday's orgy, however, saw no death. A total of 69 people, mostly teenagers, have been killed since June 11 by security forces while attempting to break up stone-pelting protesters.
--------------------------------------------------------------

The J&K police - the real sons of the soil and the supporting CRPF have done an excellent job is exercising restraint faced with such blatant provacation. Espicially working on Eid to protect the local population is a comendable job of the police forces.

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## Tuahaa

They must be quite angry...


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## somebozo

the first line of this article reads *"Thousands of demonstrators "* yet Indians blame the riots on few miscreants. Definately few renegades cannot be thousands of demostrators. Where is an end to this self denial hypocrisy?? The forces must have practiced restrain due to fear of being out numbered or in fear after paying a visit to few of their stoned colleuges in hospital.

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## Kompromat

India Must leave Kashmir , today or tomorrow , its just a matter of time.

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## Omar1984

*MODS Please change the title of the thread. This is only PDF indian member's opinion that Separatists in Indian Occupied Kashmir are losing moral ground. No where in the article reflects the opinion of indian member EjazR.


And there is already a thread open on Anti-india rallys in India Occupied Kashmir during Eid. Please merge this thread with the following thread:*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/72384-anti-india-rally-held-kashmir.html

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## Kompromat

BENNY said:


> J&K is part of India and is one of the state. So where should India go ?? Singapore??/



*Thousands join Kashmir protests *

YouTube - Thousands join Kashmir protests

Tens of thousands rally against Indian rule amid continued violence in troubled region.
Last Modified: 12 Sep 2010 00:36 GMT

Tens of thousands of people across Indian-administered Kashmir have joined protests against Indian rule following Eid prayers in the disputed Himalayan region.

The Indian army has been battling for months to contain demonstrations, ignited by the killing of a 17-year-old student by police in June.

Al Jazeera's Nilanjan Chowdhury reports.

Thousands join Kashmir protests - Central & South Asia - Al Jazeera English


What part where people wave Pakistani Flags ?
Kashmir never belonged to India and it never will - we will take it back one day by one way or the other and that is my honest opinion.

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## Patrician

Black Blood said:


> India Must leave Kashmir , today or tomorrow , *its just a matter of time*.



This matter of time ruined many generations.

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## Kompromat

Patrician said:


> This matter of time ruined many generations.



Then lets solve it to save the upcoming ones.


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## SpArK

Black Blood said:


> Then lets solve it to save the upcoming ones.



Many schemes are being organised by government which includes opening up more schools , so that these kids carry pen and books with them not stones .

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## Kompromat

BENNY said:


> Many schemes are being organised by government which includes opening up more schools , so that these kids carry pen and books with them not stones .



Most of the schools in India were opened by the colonial british , did it stopped us from gaining Independence ? NO!

The answer is to give them the right to self determination , a referendum if they want to be with India , Pakistan or Independent.
Kashmiris decide what J&K should be and who with their future should be attached or they want to be an intendant state. 

Your govt can try their best to cool it down but it wont by any means , they will keep struggling until free.

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## Patrician

Black Blood said:


> Then lets solve it to save the upcoming ones.



It will get solved. Have patience. Remember we were very close to solving it when Mushy was in power in Pak. If it could happen then, it could happen again.

Till then


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## Omar1984

Allah bless the green and white flag with the crescent moon and star.

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## Patrician

Black Blood said:


> Most of the schools in India were opened by the colonial british , did it stopped us from gaining Independence ? NO!
> 
> The answer is to give them the right to self determination ,* a referendum* if they want to be with India , Pakistan or Independent.
> Kashmiris decide what J&K should be and who with their future should be attached or they want to be an intendant state.
> 
> Your govt can try their best to cool it down but it wont by any means , they will keep struggling until free.



Quite simple, not going to happen as it is neither in India's interest nor in the interest of those who want to be with India such as Jammu, Ladakh, Kargil etc.

And if in the next post you are tempted to say "Then what about the interests of kashmiris?"

Then here is my answer "Kashmiris' interests can not be viewed in isolation. There are a billion plus people whose interests we have to care about first and foremost. And those billions include many kashmiris who want to be with India"

The solution proposed by Mushy was the most sensible one.

I can't give you a more honest answer.

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## SpArK

Black Blood said:


> *Most of the schools in India were opened by the colonial british* , did it stopped us from gaining Independence ? NO!
> 
> The answer is to give them the right to self determination , a referendum if they want to be with India , Pakistan or Independent.
> Kashmiris decide what J&K should be and who with their future should be attached or they want to be an intendant state.
> 
> Your govt can try their best to cool it down but it wont by any means , they will keep struggling until free.



Nope wrong.

Schools in Jammu and Kashmir, Jammu and Kashmir Schools, List of Schools in Jammu and Kashmir

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## Omar1984

You can hear the great and loud applauses from the Kashmiris when the man on top of the tower waves the Pakistani flag in this video.


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## Je suis de retour

Why it is called Green flag and not pakistani flag in both videos?


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## Omar1984

Je suis de retour said:


> Why it is called Green flag and not pakistani flag in both videos?



I dont know, ask the people who uploaded these videos. The flag that the man on top of the tower is waving and the flag that is on the tower looks just like this:



Green flag with a white vertical bar on the left side with the crescent moon and star. That is a Pakistani flag.


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## somebozo

BENNY said:


> Many schemes are being organised by government which includes opening up more schools , so that these kids carry pen and books with them not stones .




Educated kashmiris are more dangerous than illetreate ones..Remember tableeji jamat mullahs did not contributed an ounce to Pakistan cause but it was a bright british educated "indian" who came up with the theory. 



IndianArmy said:


> Kashmir, Is Just a Showcase of Global Politics, Protesters are Just Dolls dancing for a few Dollars, When the dollars are stopped, the dance Stops by itself, its Just a Matter of time to find the root of those dollars... As Its already a showcase, it projection is quite Obvious



Pity it takes 62 years and still counting..since you mentioned dollars...then you must be knowing the source too..The "popular" dollars all come from single country


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## IndianArmy

Omar1984 said:


> I dont know, ask the people who uploaded these videos. The flag that the man on top of the tower is waving and the flag that is on the tower looks just like this:
> 
> 
> 
> Green flag with a white vertical bar on the left side with the crescent moon and star. That is a Pakistani flag.



You are wrong, a green flag with 1/3rd of its part white and a crescent moon and star is Not necessarily a Pakistani flag..... Its an Islamic Flag used even before the very existence of Pakistan..... These Even resemble those used to cover the dead Bodies of A Person from Muslim community


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## Je suis de retour

Omar1984 said:


> *I dont know, *ask the people who uploaded these videos. The flag that the man on top of the tower is waving and the flag that is on the tower looks just like this:
> 
> 
> 
> Green flag with a white vertical bar on the left side with the crescent moon and star. That is a Pakistani flag.


Mr. If you dont know than you have no authority to write down here it has pakistani flag.
If it was true than video uploader could have written the same.


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## EjazR

Those who protest against HR violations in Kashmir, India is with them and this is proven by the fact that the Indian media gave more time about Kashmir HR violations than the entire International media and even Pakistani media put together.

It was Eid prayers when thousands were gathering, and many were protesting peacefully. 

But the aim of the miscreants by burning down Kashmiri property, thier own offices and buildings. Power departments e.t.c. show that these section of the people want to take the valley back to the dark age.

The Hurriyat (G) had announced that there will be no strikes or shutdowns for 3 days of eid. Then why did this happen. 

And despite of all these provacations,not a single casualty on the part of the security forces.
--------------------
* 
Unfortunate reward: PDD, Kashmir Times*
*SRINAGAR, Sept 11: The Power Development Department (PDD) has expressed its deep shock over setting on fire their headquarter near Exhibition Chowk by group of mob, despite serving people round the clock by providing electricity to all nooks and corners of the valley during continuous turmoil and hartals. He further said that thousands of its employees risked themselves by attending their duties during hartals and today reward was given by setting on fire the headquarter.*
The spokesman of PDD department has said that people should not forget that our employees never shirked their duties during recent months of turmoil and attended their duties in respective fields and offices for convenience of the people.
The Power Development Department ensured that during the current Ramzan month, at Sehri as well as at Iftar time no power cut or load shedding was resorted to at any place of the valley but today&#8217;s unfortunate incident where unruly mob inspite of instructions from their leaders not to resort to any violence, in broad day light set on fire their headquarter. As a result of this, service records of thousands of employees was destroyed. He said, &#8220;power supply record registers, fee payment datas and important power related documents of thousands of people was destroyed as a result of condemnable action of the unruly mob particularly on holy day of Eid.&#8221; He said the entire power department machinery was fully engaged to provide electricity round the clock on Eid day to their respective dwelling units.
The spokesman said that PDD employees are part of the society and have played exemplary role in providing power supply to all, even replacing worn-out transformers and repairing the transmission line both HT and LT even during odd hours so that people do not suffer on account of it.
*The spokesman in strong words termed today&#8217;s &#8220;reward given to them by group of miscreants by burning their office as the most unfortunate reward.&#8221;*

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## IndianArmy

somebozo said:


> Pity it takes 62 years and still counting..since you mentioned dollars...then you must be knowing the source too..The "popular" dollars all come from single country



Sorry, Finding Who is Behind Who is Not My Business, there are far more learned and Talented People than me to figure that out and Neutralize it If Necessary or Use the Opportunity to there Will....


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## Patrician

Hey guys here's a snapshot of a survey conducted by hindustan times in J&K and India,







Hindustan Times

Click on point 12 on the left-hand bar to see the result of the survey.

Regards,

Peace

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## Omar1984

IndianArmy said:


> You are wrong, a green flag with 1/3rd of its part white and a crescent moon and star is Not necessarily a Pakistani flag..... Its an Islamic Flag used even before the very existence of Pakistan..... These Even resemble those used to cover the dead Bodies of A Person from Muslim community



Oh Really? Then why is that Pakistan is the only Islamic country with this flag.



Its off topic, but here's a little information for the ignorant minded people on the flag of PAKISTAN.

Flag of Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## EjazR

*Stone pelters claim one life in Kashmir - India - DNA*

Late night stone pelting by some unidentified persons on a car claimed the life of a 55-year-old man when he received head injuries after being hit by a brick.

The deceased has been identified as Ghulam Mohammed Guroo, a resident of Maloora in Sumbal area, a police spokesman said.

The victim was travelling along with his two brothers from Letpora to Malora Sumbal when some unidentified persons pelted stones on his vehicle at Tengpora Bypass last night. Guroo received head injuries after being hit by a brick. He was admitted to Sher-e-Kashmir Institute of Medical Sciences where he succumbed to his injuries this afternoon.

A manhunt has been launched to nab the culprits.

The death of Guroo is not an isolated case as such incidents have taken place earlier also when innocent civilians had fallen prey to senseless killing, the police said.

In another incident last night, some persons intercepted and set ablaze a car driven by a head constable of the Jammu and Kashmir police at Ompura, Budgam.

The policeman, however, managed to escape from the spot.

---------- Post added at 04:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:49 AM ----------

*Hurriyat leader to be quizzed for helping hawala dealer escape - Hindustan Times*

Security agencies are probing the role of a senior Hurriyat leader in helping Nasir Safi Mir, alleged to be the 'financial brain' behind the Hurriyat Conference and other separatist leaders, to flee the country after paying for a forged passport from a southern state. According to sources in central security agencies, Mir, against whom a non-bailable warrant was issued last year, managed to flee the country using Nepal route from where he had used the forged passport procured with the help of a senior separatist leader in Kashmir.

The Hurriyat leader is alleged to have used the help of some over ground Hizb workers and got the passport made from a southern state, the sources said, adding Mir, who was released on parole, reached Dubai after making a detour from Europe and Libya.

Mir was earlier arrested by Delhi Police in February 2006 while carrying Rs 55 lakh from a Delhi-based jeweller along with some explosives, but had jumped parole which he had got after several requests made by his family to a court citing medical problems.

Now investigators claim that some clues have emerged indicating that a senior Hurriyat leader had helped Mir with monetary help and some assistance from Hizbul Mujahideen terrorist group to procure a passport from a southern state to ensure his quiet departure from the country. The 39-year-old Dubai-based businessman, who owns carpet showroom and money exchange firms in Gulf, had been regularly reporting to the nearest police station till earlier October 2008, but after that he never turned up at the police station as well as at the court on the hearing date.

Mir, who was considered as a prize catch by the Delhi Police following a well-executed operation by central security agencies, was suddenly missing which prompted the court to issue a non-bailable warrant against him.

Delhi Police had shown its inability to trace Mir, whom they had claimed was very much hiding within the country.

There have been technical intercepts where Mir allegedly spoke to the separatist leadership after reaching Dubai.

A former Union cabinet minister had also taken up the case of the release of Mir with the government after Hurriyat Chairman Mirwaiz Umer Farooq had put this as one of the pre-conditions for entering into a dialogue. According to the police files, Mir was last spotted publicly with the Mirwaiz at a five star hotel in south Delhi in September 2008.

During the interrogation, Mir had allegedly told police that the money was meant for the Mirwaiz and also claimed to have spilled beans about huge investments made by the Hurriyat chairman in Dubai, they said.

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## IndianArmy

Omar1984 said:


> Oh Really? Then why is that Pakistan is the only Islamic country with this flag.
> 
> 
> 
> Its off topic, but here's a little information for the ignorant minded people on the flag of PAKISTAN.
> 
> Flag of Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Well, I dont have an answer to why only Pakistan as a Country is Using an Islamic Flag for there Identity..... No Answer sorry, But I can throw some photos to prove my claim if you want to... And Be careful dear, dont go Personal, if You are Intending to do so, You win.....


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## Patrician

A few important points to note, 

1. Kashmiris' are themselves divided about what they want.
2. 68&#37; in the valley say that " India should give kashmir control over everything except defence, foreign affairs and communication. This clearly means that those 68% want India to retain overall control. Yet again, 66% in the valley say "Complete freedom for entire J&K as a seperate country".

Two thing becomes very clear,

*1. Valley and only valley wants independence but even they could be satisfied with things like greater autonomy with India giving up control for everything except defence, foreign affairs and communication. GoI is game for that.
2. Nobody wants to join Pakistan

Regards

Peace
*


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## somebozo

All the anti india opnions have ranked higher in the valley and no they dont want merger with Pakistan either. India should have its eyes open before blaming!!


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## Omar1984

IndianArmy said:


> Well, I dont have an answer to why only Pakistan as a Country is Using an Islamic Flag for there Identity..... No Answer sorry, But I can throw some photos to prove my claim if you want to... And Be careful dear, dont go Personal, if You are Intending to do so, You win.....



The Pakistani flag was designed by Amiruddin Kidwai, and is based on the All-India Muslim League flag. (Islam was revealed to mankind 1400 years old. The All-India Muslim League was formed in the 20th century.)

The green represents the majority Muslim community in Pakistan, whereas the white stripe represents religious minorities. In the centre, the crescent and star symbolize progress and light respectively. The flag symbolizes Pakistan's commitment to Islam, the Islamic world, and the rights of religious minorities. It is based on the original flag of the Muslim League, which itself drew inspiration from the flag of the Sultanate of Delhi and the Mughal Empire in India.

Flag of Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes please show me pictures of Arab Muslims and Iranian Muslims hosting the Pakistani flag on top of their clock towers.


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## EjazR

The funny thing is that Pakistani media will pick this up as 66&#37; in Indian Kashmir want independance. Even though it is only the valley where this opinion is there and which comprises of about 50% of the states' population.

What is also interesting is that the valley respondednts by 87% were against the splitting up of JAmmu Kashmir and Ladakh regions because they know that just an indepedant valley by itself will not be politically or economically viable.

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## Patrician

EjazR said:


> The funny thing is that Pakistani media will pick this up as 66% in Indian Kashmir want independance. Even though it is only the valley where this opinion is there and which comprises of about 50% of the states' population



Even those 66% can be satisfied if they are granted greater autonomy with India giving up control of everything except defence, foreign affairs and communication.


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## IndianArmy

Omar1984 said:


> The Pakistani flag was designed by Amiruddin Kidwai, and is based on the All-India Muslim League flag. Islam was revealed to mankind 1400 years old. The All-India Muslim League was formed in the 20th century.
> 
> The green represents the majority Muslim community in Pakistan, whereas the white stripe represents religious minorities. In the centre, the crescent and star symbolize progress and light respectively. The flag symbolizes Pakistan's commitment to Islam, the Islamic world, and the rights of religious minorities. It is based on the original flag of the Muslim League, which itself drew inspiration from the flag of the Sultanate of Delhi and the Mughal Empire in India.
> 
> Flag of Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Yes please show me pictures of Arab Muslims and Iranian Muslims hosting the Pakistani flag on top of their clock towers.



I do Not have any Objection To Your Claim, I only said, that Anything which resembles Your Flag is not Your flag, for example Your two videos.... And The flags which Are In those pictures and Videos of Yours are used as far as I know to cover the dead bodies of a Person from a Muslim Community, and those are not Pakistani flags either, so How come You stand to your claim those Flags which have Crescent star and Moon with Green and White shades as a Pakistani flag..... There are Proper alignments, are they visible in any of Your Pictures???


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## Omar1984

IndianArmy said:


> I do Not have any Objection To Your Claim, I only said, that Anything which resembles Your Flag is not Your flag, for example Your two videos.... And The flags which Are In those pictures and Videos of Yours are used as far as I know to cover the dead bodies of a Person from a Muslim Community, and those are not Pakistani flags either, so How come You stand to your claim those Flags which have Crescent star and Moon with Green and White shades as a Pakistani flag..... There are Proper alignments, are they visible in any of Your Pictures???



This is my last post to you cause your obviously trolling or in denial or maybe just .........

Here's the flag that was hoisted in India Occupied Kashmir:






And here's a Pakistani flag from Pakistan Defence Forum:


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## IndianArmy

Omar1984 said:


> This is my last post to you cause your obviously trolling or in denial or maybe just .........
> 
> Here's the flag that was hoisted in India Occupied Kashmir:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here's a Pakistani flag from Pakistan Defence Forum:



Look at the alignment of Moon and distance of the Star from the crescent moon... Its very clear, its an Islamic flag not a Pakistani., and if that flag's white is Made to come in the left as pakistani flag, the crescent moon and the star would be facing the other way... There are several Flags raised Like this when Getting a Dead body moved out of houses to graveyards in India..... There is a Moon and Star and the green with white shades.... Now we are going deep into A nations Pride, which Iam not Intending to Spoil...... Iam An Outsider, I have fair amount of chance to get banned , I made my point clear, its upto you to take it and Back Yourself from posting stuffs which Belittles non other than Yourself

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## somebozo

Violence erupts as thousands march in Kashmir
By MUKHTAR AHMAD | ARAB NEWS





Published: Sep 11, 2010 22:07 Updated: Sep 11, 2010 22:07 

SRINAGAR: Tens of thousands of Kashmiris staged a mammoth rally in the heart of capital Srinagar Saturday to push New Delhi for a settlement of the 63-year old Kashmir dispute.


The demonstrations broke out immediately after people offered the congregational Eid Al-Fitr prayers in the morning and ended in violence and arson.

The marchers chanting *&#8216;we want freedom&#8217; *and *&#8216;Go India, go back&#8217; *converged on the city center Lal Chowk filling sprawling area to the brim.

The biggest march, led by the moderate All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq began its five kilometer long journey from the prayer grounds at Eidgah in the old city.

&#8220;Mirwaiz Umar Farooq incited the situation by leading a procession to Lal Chowk from Eid Gah taking the advantage of the Eid congregation and thus vitiated the Eid celebration in Srinagar,&#8221; a police statement said.

Shouting anti-India slogans, the procession comprised of mostly youth with scores of them wearing masks to hide their faces.

*As the procession reached Lal Chowk, massive sloganeering by cheering mobs greeted it.*

*Earlier groups of youth climbed the clock tower and hoisted green flags on it.*
Hundreds of trucks and buses brought people, many of them sitting on roofs and hanging out of windows.

The violence comes as New Delhi is trying to respond to demonstrations reminiscent of the late 1980s when protests against India&#8217;s rule sparked an armed separatist conflict that has so far officially killed more than 47,000 people.

Omar Abdullah, the chief minister of Jammu and Kashmir state, earlier this week said &#8220;efforts were on to break the ice&#8221; but on Saturday said the separatists had betrayed his trust in them.

The scenic region, claimed by nuclear-armed rivals Indian and Pakistan, has been hit by strikes and curfews for three months. Protesters have defied curfews to attack police with stones and set security camps and police stations on fire.

*&#8220;The law of jungle was prevailing in Kashmir and the troops were randomly killing Kashmiri youth to frighten people to submission,&#8221; Farooq said. &#8220;But our struggle will continue.&#8221;*


&#169; 2010 Arab News


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## somebozo

> During the interrogation, Mir had allegedly told police that the money was meant for the Mirwaiz and also claimed to have spilled beans about huge investments made by the Hurriyat chairman in Dubai, they said.



That explains it..


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## somebozo

IndianArmy said:


> You are wrong, a green flag with 1/3rd of its part white and a crescent moon and star is Not necessarily a Pakistani flag..... Its an Islamic Flag used even before the very existence of Pakistan..... These Even resemble those used to cover the dead Bodies of A Person from Muslim community



Are you a superior idiot??

The flag used by Pakistan has never been existent in history before Pakistan creation. The so called Islamic flag bush you are beating is vastly different..

Islamic Flag of Ottoman Turkey






Islamic Flag of Ottoman Bosnia






Flag of Muslim Brotherhood / Khilafat Movement.





None of them look like  though resemble!

Looks like Indian army does not recognise their foe symbols..update them quick before you send them into battle field.

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## IndianArmy

somebozo said:


> Are you a superior idiot??
> 
> The flag used by Pakistan has never been existent in history before Pakistan creation. The so called Islamic flag bush you are beating is vastly different..
> 
> Islamic Flag of Ottoman Turkey
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Islamic Flag of Ottoman Bosnia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flag of Muslim Brotherhood / Khilafat Movement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of them look like  though resemble!
> 
> Looks like Indian army does not recognise their foe symbols..update them quick before you send them into battle field.



Mind Your Language, I too Know Fair Enough English to portray Your Character as an Idiotic Buffoon.... Do Not Get Into an argument Before Knowing what and How The situation is and what is the topic and what Was I referring to.....


This is the Flag which Started the Argument






Now Tilt the White portion of this Flag towards Left as In Pakistani flag, Now Tell me the Position of Your Crescent Moon and the star and Also The distance between the star from the crescent... I pity you for Not even able to distinguish Your National flag from a Most commonly used Islamic Flag


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## Rajput Warrior

IndianArmy said:


> Mind Your Language, I too Know Fair Enough English to portray Your Character as an Idiotic Buffoon.... Do Not Get Into an argument Before Knowing what and How The situation is and what is the topic and what Was I referring to.....
> 
> 
> This is the Flag which Started the Argument
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now Tilt the White portion of this Flag towards Left as In Pakistani flag, Now Tell me the Position of Your Crescent Moon and the star and Also The distance between the star from the crescent... I pity you for Not even able to distinguish *Your National flag from a Most commonly used Islamic Flag*



There is no such a thing as ISLAMIC FLAG!

Thts a Pakistani Flag being hoisted in sri nagar!
And as u see its homemade... not available in market!small mistakes happen but to say its some inslamic flag is nothing more then foolishness!
Kashmiris want to join Pakistan and are fighting for Freedom not Islam...U have doubts?Watch this:

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## Jade

The survey results were on expected lines. However, the 66% would have been less, if not for the turmoil the valley is going through since last two months


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## somebozo

Dear Indian PDF members,
we are sorry for Kashmiri flag mistake. Next time we will send them the correct flag along with a hoisting manual so it doesnt cause any futher misunderstanding and Indians dont have to resort to embarassing argument of (non-existent) Islamic flag.



> Mind Your Language, I too Know Fair Enough English to portray Your Character as an Idiotic Buffoon.... Do Not Get Into an argument Before Knowing what and How The situation is and what is the topic and what Was I referring to.....



Ohh my God..Im soo scared!


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## Valiant_Soul

Even if the entire Jammu & Kashmir asks for autonomy/independence, India is entirely justified to hold these territories. There is absolutely no moral grounds to demand separation, especially not in the name of religion. 

The Kashmiris have every freedom under the constitution of India and the violence is of their own making - if they start giving priorities to the right things in life, they will see how peaceful the region could become.

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## nForce

somebozo said:


> Dear Indian PDF members,
> we are sorry for Kashmiri flag mistake. Next time we will send them the correct flag along with a hoisting manual so it doesnt cause any futher misunderstanding and Indians dont have to resort to embarassing argument of (non-existent) Islamic flag.
> 
> 
> 
> Ohh my God..Im soo scared!



Please send us that flag.We will try our best to make sure that it is respectfully returned back to you.Some people may burn Indian flags showing cheap disrespect.That does not mean we don't know what is the value of the flag of a nation.......

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## Rajput Warrior

Valiant_Soul said:


> Even if the entire Jammu & Kashmir asks for autonomy/independence, *India is entirely justified *to hold these territories. *There is absolutely no moral grounds to demand separation,* especially not in the name of religion.
> 
> The *Kashmiris have every freedom *under the constitution of India and the* violence is of their own making *- if they start giving priorities to the right things in life, they will see how peaceful the region could become.



(sarcasim)

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## alibaz

*Indefinite curfew imposed in Srinagar, FIR against Mirwaiz*

SRINAGAR: In occupied Kashmir, following massive anti-India and pro-liberation demonstrations on the day of Eid at historic Lal Chowk in Srinagar and other parts of the valley, the authorities have imposed curfew in Srinagar, Islamabad, Bijbehara, Pulwama, Kakapora, Sopore and Baramulla and restrictions in all parts of the territory.

Gun-toting Indian paramilitary troopers and police personnel are out in strength enforcing a strict curfew. No one is allowed to move out of his home, residents of various areas of Srinagar told media men over phone.

Elsewhere in Kashmir valley restrictions have been imposed on the movement of people and at many places undeclared curfew has been clamped, reports said.

On Saturday, the day of Eid hundreds of thousands of people had converged at Eidgah and other places of worship including Hazratbal and TRC Ground in the city and offered prayers. 

After Eid prayers, tens of thousands marched from Eidgah in Srinagar to historic Lal Chowk to demonstrate against Indian occupation. Pro-liberation and Pakistani flags were hoisted atop a Clock Tower situated in the centre of the sprawling square

On the other hand, an FIR has been lodged by authorities against APHC Chairman, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq alleging him of instigating trouble and arson in Lal Chowk. The FIR no. 83/2010 stands registered against Mirwaiz in Shergarhi Police Station, a police official told media men.

Indefinite curfew imposed in Srinagar, FIR against Mirwaiz - GEO.tv


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## HAIDER

SRINAGAR: India deployed thousands of security forces and slapped an indefinite curfew on Srinagar on Sunday  a day after Muslims set fire to public buildings in protests against New Delhi's rule, officials said.

The Indian government has been trying to respond to the biggest separatist demonstrations in two years in Kashmir triggered by the killing of a 17-year-old student by police in June. Seventy people have died, most from police firing into protesters.

Troops equipped with assault rifles patrolled deserted streets and blocked off lanes with razor wire and iron barricades in Srinagar, the heart of an insurgency where tens of thousands of people have been killed in two decades of violence.

The curfew extended to other big towns in the Kashmir valley.

Omar Abdullah, the chief minister of Jammu and Kashmir, told NDTV news channel that the fresh violence in Kashmir had dealt a setback to an anticipated new government peace initiative.

Such protests create problems for everybody else, Abdullah said. How can you take this move forward if violence continues?

Police have accused the region's main separatist leader, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, of instigating violence and arson. Farooq denied the charges.

After Eid prayers to mark the end of the Ramazan fasting month, tens of thousands marched through Srinagar on Saturday, allegedly setting fire to government and police buildings. Farooq led the main demonstration.

Killings of civilians have fuelled anger across Kashmir, where sentiment against New Delhi's rule runs deep. Human rights groups say India's Armed Forces Special Powers Act, which gives security forces wide powers to shoot, arrest and search in battling a separatist insurgency, further alienates people.

India's Congress party-led federal government is considering a partial relaxation of the act in Kashmir as part of a peace initiative expected in the next few days. But no consensus has been reached on the issue yet, local media have reported.

We don't want peace, we don't want the peace of a graveyard, Farooq said in a statement. We want a solution of the Kashmir dispute and that will end all the problems.

Peace in Kashmir is crucial for improving relations between India and Pakistan, which are trying to revive peace talks halted after India blamed Lashkar-i-Taiba (LT) militants for the 2008 Mumbai attacks.

Both India and Pakistan claim Kashmir in full though they rule it in parts and fought two of three wars over the region.
DAWN.COM | World | India imposes curfew in Srinagar after protests


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## Areesh

BENNY said:


> Many schemes are being organised by government which includes opening up more schools , so that these kids carry pen and books with them not stones .



What about the independence scheme? That's the only scheme that would work. The rest schemes are just useless.


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## SpArK

Areesh said:


> What about the independence scheme? That's the only scheme that would work. The rest schemes are just useless.



Nope that scheme is not part of the package.. 

Its still a "developing" nation, cant agree to all the schemes. 

Until then these kids needs to study, get a job, look after their family.


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## Areesh

IndianArmy said:


> Now Tilt the White portion of this Flag towards Left as In Pakistani flag, Now Tell me the Position of Your Crescent Moon and the star and Also The distance between the star from the crescent... I pity you for Not even able to distinguish Your National flag from a Most commonly used Islamic Flag



Major sahab it is strange you don't recognize the flag of the country with which you fought three wars. Now let me tell you a simple secret. The flag in the pic in whatever position, is the PAKISTANI flag. Their is no Islamic flag and even if their is the flag in the pic is definitely a Pakistani flag not an Islamic flag.


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## Areesh

BENNY said:


> Nope that scheme is not part of the package..
> 
> Its still a "developing" nation, cant agree to all the schemes.
> 
> *Until then these kids needs to study, get a job, look after their family.*



And after performing all these duties struggle for the independence of their land which is occupied by those with whom they have no relation.


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## Donatello

Will this ever end? It's about time India listened to the Kashmiris. If you think they belong to India, then act as if they are like people from Delhi or Mumbai or Bangalore!!!


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## civfanatic

Strange we lose moral ground pretty fast . India does not lose moral ground even after confirmed killing 70 unarmed men in 3 months and we llose it becuase two buildings were brunt (We even deny it and also condemn it )....perhaps in moral universe kashmir has already freed itself from India

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## S_O_C_O_M

This is Pakistan's Flag. An Islamic Flag (non national) does not have a vertical white stripe. 



This is an Islamic Flag, it must be green not red as Turkey's is.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Thousands protest after new death in Indian Kashmir​*
Posted 26 minutes ago 

Thousands of villagers demonstrated in Indian-administered Kashmir on Sunday, police say, after a protester was killed by a police bullet - the 71st death in three months of unrest.

The 30-year-old man died in hospital on Sunday after being injured last week when police fired on a demonstration in the northern village of Palhalan.

His death brought thousands of residents in Palhalan and adjoining villages out onto the streets chanting pro-independence slogans, said residents reached by telephone.

"Thousands of men, women and children attended the funeral," said Ghulam Ahmed, a resident, adding that mourners later dispersed of their own accord.

Government forces have been battling for months to contain violent demonstrations in the mainly Muslim region that were ignited by the police killing of a 17-year-old student on June 11.

A total of 71 protesters and bystanders - including some children - have been killed, mostly by security forces firing on demonstrators after being pelted with stones.

Palhalan, around 30 kilometres north of the region's summer capital Srinagar, has been tense since last Monday, when police opened fire on a violent demonstration, killing four people and leaving dozens more injured.

Each death has sparked a fresh round of violence in the region, where anti-India sentiments run deep.

A survey conducted for the Sunday Hindustan Times newspaper showed Sunday that about two-thirds of residents favour independence for India-administered Kashmir, with fewer than one in ten backing a merger with Pakistan.

On Sunday, Indian police fired shots and used teargas to control young Kashmiris who defied a strict curfew and attacked the residence of a senior local minister, police said.

The guards of Kashmir Education Minister Peerzada Mohammad Sayeed opened fire and lobbed teargas in southern Kokernag village to repulse an attack by stone-throwing protesters, a police spokesman said.

Police said one protester and five policemen were hurt during the clash at the minister's house, which suffered some damage, though the minister himself was unhurt.

In the summer capital of Srinagar and northern Baramulla town, hundreds of young men defied a curfew and held noisy demonstrations, prompting security forces to fire teargas and warning shots.

There were clashes at nearly a dozen places across the Kashmir Valley, leaving 10 policemen and 14 protesters injured, police said, adding that demonstrators had set fire to a government school and hurled petrol bombs at a security force vehicle.

The curfew was imposed a day after prayers marking the end of the Muslim fasting month of Ramadan erupted into anti-India demonstrations.

- AFP

Thousands protest after new death in Indian Kashmir - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)


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## Areesh

By the way flag on the building in whatever position is the same as the one in the red circle. Both are Pakistani flags.

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## rafay321

riju78 said:


> if u think BJP installed Shri Abdul Kalam (the most loved president aka common people's favourite) to save india's secular image then my dear friend even GOD cant help u...



When you Indians have got nothing to say, you come up with GOD CANT HELP YOU and WASH YOUR FACE type of posts.

Keep sleeping because apparently, kashmiris have woken
up and giving your country some serious headache.


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## k7x

Rajput Warrior said:


> (sarcasim)




yes dear...

they have freedom to speak, write, publish, watch movies, sing, pray any god, walk on the street , travel to any part of Inida, they can buy land in any part of inda, they are free to choose their leader , they are free to not choose any one.

They enjoy more freedom than any oteher place where you think human rights are valued... 

the problem is self created.. 

step 1. 100s of young brainwashed people will go and throw stones at police station and govt buildings

step 2. when the try to set a vehicle or police personal on fire, first tear gas shells will be thorwn.. 

step 3. these people will not run. some small boy will be hit by the tear gas shell and he will die...( extreme cases only they will use live rounds..even police are people)

step 4. the next day his funeral will happen and will be published all over the world that innocent kashmiri boy was gunned down by brutal Inidan police... 

Now go back to step 1 because of step 4....


Kashmirs have every freedom now and they are in the incubation of a wealthy ( or one which is not alteast totally bankrupt) mother land. 

if they every get independence, after the next erath quake ( it is sesmically active zone).. every Kashmiri will have to look for aid from International community to survive .. 


Free Kashmir is not sustainable unless it has excellent economy .. which it doesn't have , Even Pakistan Part of Kashmir doesnt not have excellent economy.

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## StingRoy

One interesting thing that I see from these statistics is that most of the people in J&K.. except the Kashmir valley (almost 75&#37 are in favor of complete merger of the whole J&K region into India... It is only in the valley that people want to break free into a new country... but the problem that I see with that is that a country that small is not feasible without support from both Pakistan and India... do people in the valley realize that an independent country is not a valid option with just the valley? The only possibility that I see is if the Pak occ Kashmir region merges with them... someone should conduct a similar unofficial survey in Pak occ Kashmir

Another solution I see is to separate the valley as a self governing autonomous territory within India and merge the Jammu and Ladakh regions into another state. Hopefully peace prevails fast before these issues can be discussed on the table.... violence is not going to help... just increase frustration of the people.


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## prototype

but u people r leaving 1 important thing....^^% in Kashmir valley want it as an independent sate(poll no 6)


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## Patrician

dezi said:


> One interesting thing that I see from these statistics is that most of the people in J&K.. except the Kashmir valley (almost 75%) are in favor of complete merger of the whole J&K region into India... It is only in the valley that people want to break free into a new country... but the problem that I see with that is that a country that small is not feasible without support from both Pakistan and India... do people in the valley realize that an independent country is not a valid option with just the valley? The only possibility that I see is if the Pak occ Kashmir region merges with them... someone should conduct a similar unofficial survey in Pak occ Kashmir
> 
> Another solution I see is to *separate the valley as a self governing autonomous territory within India* and merge the Jammu and Ladakh regions into another state. Hopefully peace prevails fast before these issues can be discussed on the table.... violence is not going to help... just increase frustration of the people.



MMS is very much willing to do that. Take it from me.


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## StingRoy

k7x said:


> Kashmirs have every freedom now and they are in the incubation of a wealthy ( or one which is not alteast totally bankrupt) mother land.
> 
> if they every get independence, after the next erath quake ( it is sesmically active zone).. every Kashmiri will have to look for aid from International community to survive ..
> 
> Free Kashmir is not sustainable unless it has excellent economy .. which it doesn't have , Even Pakistan Part of Kashmir doesnt not have excellent economy.


I agree to your point here... not sure how the independent economy can sustain the people in the valley without any links on both sides (India and Pakistan).... if people understand this ... then although they will get political freedom... but economically they will still be very dependent on both the countries for sustaining their livelihood...and maybe have to go under more severe hardships...

Forming a separate political entity is always in the interest of a few leaders who have regional hold and know that they can't compete on the state scale... hence they are trying to split up the state to get their own seats of power.


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## StingRoy

Patrician said:


> MMS is very much willing to do that. Take it from me.


It is high time he should step up to the center stage and take control of the situation... allowing the violence to continue is not helping the situation


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## WHF

It makes me feel sick to see the politicians, media men side with a bunch of people who take on a state's policy with religious aggression...


Jammu & Kashmir =*Jammu + Ladakh *+ kashmir.

so who are the bloody kashmiri stone pelters to decide the fate of jammu and ladakh regions??
What did the awam of kashmir do for LEH in its worst tragedy so far in the floods recently??
what was the reaction of the kashmiri ppl to the agatating jammu region during amarnath agitation??

Did the ppl of kashmir support ever support the causes of jammu and ladakh ppl?? the answer is plain NO.

But when they speak of freedom they want it for jammu and ladakh too, as if kashmiri ppl represent the ppl in jammu & ladakh..

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## SnIPeR Xr

> cant be anymore wrong..Its just yet another protest movement....Personally I am more concerned with the remote parts of India where there is significant lack of development and less options for livelihood


.
Then sir please go ahead & show your concern to those remote areas.But oh! you are  here. .Is this your concern.Now I understand the reason why these remote parts are struggling to deny your concerns ASSAM,NAGALAND,TRIPURA,TAMILNADU,MANIPUR & many other.Actually people here are giving priority to Maoists's concern over your concern & the reason is that you are trolling & using rofls on Indian occupation in kashmir on PDF instead of concerning about those remote areas.& to be honest if you will continue your this state of concern then a time will come that you could have to listen only to maoists's concern.


> Kashmir,though not one of the top GDP earner for India is more or less economically stable.But employment issue is still there.Most of the protest movements can be traced back to unemployment.
> 
> You will be surprised to know that some of the youth who were throwing stones in rallies of anti-India protest movements were also found in the recruitment drives of the Indian Army.What does this tell us?? *Idealogy* is not the issue here,unemployment is.



*Yes man i am really surprised by seeing some Indian army Mens in civil dresses throwing stones at Anti INDIA rallies in kashmir *& *I think this is the last thing they can do after wasting thousands of bullets & spreading terror in the region*
*Too bad to see worlds unique Army using stones & hiding in civil dresses to stop the rallies against thier country* 
*Pity on them man How poor they are.I wish maybe I can give them some donation from my POcket money so that they can buy guns & they dont have to use stones *



About Ideology part its been 60 years & still *ANTI INDIA*& *PRO PAKISTANI *protests in kashmir even knowing the odds faced by Pakistan.
*If unemployment is an issue then Pity on POOR india who couldn't give employment to kashmiris in 60 years.Why Kashmiri people should live with such a POOr nation who has not given them employment in damn 60 years*

*Sorry man but your soldiers are using stones & your government has not given the employment to kashmiris.So Kashmiri peoples independence is justified.Again I would like to donate some money to you people because in this context you people are more poor than our flood affected people.*

*If employment is an issue then kashmiris should demand an independent state so that they can give employment to thier people themselves.. But hey they are hoisting PAKISTAN FLAG in kashmir. BUT Pakistan itself is facing difficulties!!!* so POOr GUY if you dont know what is IDEOLOGY then i am telling you that *IDEOLOGY IS THAT KASHMIRI PEOPLE WANTS TO JOIN PAKISTAN EVEN AFTER KNOWING ABOUT THE ODDS FACED BY PAKISTAN.*IDEOLOGY IS THAT "*PEOPLE WANTS TO JOIN A NATION WHOS BELIEFS ARE VERY SIMILAR TO THE BELIEFS OF THEIR & THEY WANT TO BE PART OF THAT NATION & THEY ALSO WANT TO JOIN THE DIFFICULTIES OF THAT NATION.THIS IS IDEOLOGY".*

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

EjazR said:


> The funny thing is that Pakistani media will pick this up as 66% in Indian Kashmir want independance. Even though it is only the valley where this opinion is there and which comprises of about 50% of the states' population.


Correct, which is why they refer to it as 'Indian occupied Kashmir' instead of 'Indian occupied J&K' ...


> What is also interesting is that the valley respondednts by 87% were against the splitting up of JAmmu Kashmir and Ladakh regions because they know that just an indepedant valley by itself will not be politically or economically viable.


Which means that the most feasible means of resolving the issue is a region wise plebiscite after tripartite negotiations between the three parties to the dispute; Pakistan, India and Kashmir-Jammu-Laddakh residents.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

k7x said:


> yes dear...
> 
> they have freedom to speak, write, publish, watch movies, sing, pray any god, walk on the street , travel to any part of Inida, they can buy land in any part of inda, they are free to choose their leader , they are free to not choose any one.
> 
> They enjoy more freedom than any oteher place where you think human rights are valued...



Nonsense - they do not enjoy the freedom to exercise the right to self-determination promised them by the Indian State and the United nations to determine their future status, and confirm their status as part of the Indian State, if they choose to do so.


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## American Pakistani

Who cares for these fake surveys.http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTBmdgHwJQI


http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNF1xNml9ZE

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a96SgjUsfoM&feature=related


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## dabong1

So basically the muslim regions want to be free of india and the majority hindu regions want to be with india......i could have told you that without doing a survey.

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## DGMO

dezi said:


> Another solution I see is to separate the valley as a self governing autonomous territory within India and merge the Jammu and Ladakh regions into another state.


Any solution to the current problems will be along these lines, especially if MMS backs it vocally - that's from an Indian POV. But a realistic solution nonetheless.

The indecision and mess within Congress on how to handle the situation is allowing this to spiral out of control. I don't see the need to announce 'packages' on symbolic days like Eid, just speak to the separatists and get things moving!

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## WAQAS119

Hey! I am happy for the results of survey. 

Referendum as per UN resolution? Now are you guys ready or same cry baby looser stuff?


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## BATMAN

Is media allowed in occupied Kashmir?
Than why don't they report the arrested children in recent turmoil.


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## nForce

SnIPeR Xr said:


> .
> Then sir please go ahead & show your concern to those remote areas.But oh! you are  here. .Is this your concern.Now I understand the reason why these remote parts are struggling to deny your concerns ASSAM,NAGALAND,TRIPURA,TAMILNADU,MANIPUR & many other.Actually people here are giving priority to Maoists's concern over your concern & the reason is that you are trolling & using rofls on Indian occupation in kashmir on PDF instead of concerning about those remote areas.& to be honest if you will continue your this state of concern then a time will come that you could have to listen only to maoists's concern.
> 
> 
> *Yes man i am really surprised by seeing some Indian army Mens in civil dresses throwing stones at Anti INDIA rallies in kashmir *& *I think this is the last thing they can do after wasting thousands of bullets & spreading terror in the region*
> *Too bad to see worlds unique Army using stones & hiding in civil dresses to stop the rallies against thier country*
> *Pity on them man How poor they are.I wish maybe I can give them some donation from my POcket money so that they can buy guns & they dont have to use stones *
> 
> 
> 
> About Ideology part its been 60 years & still *ANTI INDIA*& *PRO PAKISTANI *protests in kashmir even knowing the odds faced by Pakistan.
> *If unemployment is an issue then Pity on POOR india who couldn't give employment to kashmiris in 60 years.Why Kashmiri people should live with such a POOr nation who has not given them employment in damn 60 years*
> 
> *Sorry man but your soldiers are using stones & your government has not given the employment to kashmiris.So Kashmiri peoples independence is justified.Again I would like to donate some money to you people because in this context you people are more poor than our flood affected people.*
> 
> *If employment is an issue then kashmiris should demand an independent state so that they can give employment to thier people themselves.. But hey they are hoisting PAKISTAN FLAG in kashmir. BUT Pakistan itself is facing difficulties!!!* so POOr GUY if you dont know what is IDEOLOGY then i am telling you that *IDEOLOGY IS THAT KASHMIRI PEOPLE WANTS TO JOIN PAKISTAN EVEN AFTER KNOWING ABOUT THE ODDS FACED BY PAKISTAN.*IDEOLOGY IS THAT "*PEOPLE WANTS TO JOIN A NATION WHOS BELIEFS ARE VERY SIMILAR TO THE BELIEFS OF THEIR & THEY WANT TO BE PART OF THAT NATION & THEY ALSO WANT TO JOIN THE DIFFICULTIES OF THAT NATION.THIS IS IDEOLOGY".*





How old are you exactly???

Well,when you will be a little more matured and have a little more idea about Economics and the financial situation of a country,then you will realize that the state of Pakistan is in a much worse condition politically ,socially and economically.It does not feature in the *top 10 list of Most Failed Countries* without a reason.

I can also very well understand the paradox of talking to somebody about India while he knows almost nothing about India.

In relation to the issues in India's north East,are you even aware of India's joint operations with Bhutan,and co-operations with Myanmar and Bangladesh???The militants were all flushed out long time back,with most of their leaders either killed or captured.

We don't even hear about militant attacks in Kashmir that much anymore,which was a daily norm even sometime ago.

Regarding Tamilnadu,well well well,do you have an iota of idea regarding what you are talking about???
That state is one of the top GDP contributors of India,The 2007 estimate of Tamilnadu's GDP puts the figure at US $ 70billion.Now that is almost half of the GDP of entire Pakistan alone even if we calculate Pakistan's GDP by 2010's estimate.


Let us just say that the general concern among people have led to the development of India.And our concern seems to be about everything that concerns India.

My suggestion to you.it will be better for you to get a bit concerned too.We had a Mumbai like attack some time ago.But you people experience attacks like that on daily basis.Sometimes Lahore,sometimes Karachi,sometimes Quetta....

.Also your economy looks like a shattered piece of glass to me.The government even had to take loan just to pay the salary of the employees.Your country has a forex reserve of US $ 16.7 billion while the external debt is well about US $ 53 billion

There has been a recent flood,probably the biggest ever for Pakistan.That flood has destroyed agricultural lands and left million without food.You please donate your pocket money to those people,we will take care of our army and our people.


Also,do something about corruption in your country.From what I here,it seems Zardari recently bought a 140 million pound worth apartment recently even while a part of his country has just experienced floods.


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## EjazR

BATMAN said:


> Is media allowed in occupied Kashmir?
> Than why don't they report the arrested children in recent turmoil.



More media presence on the Indian side than on the Pakistani side.

That is why you know about those arrested here while there is no info about similar arrests in Gilgit baltistan e.t.c.


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## EjazR

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Correct, which is why they refer to it as 'Indian occupied Kashmir' instead of 'Indian occupied J&K' ...
> 
> Which means that the most feasible means of resolving the issue is a region wise plebiscite after tripartite negotiations between the three parties to the dispute; Pakistan, India and Kashmir-Jammu-Laddakh residents.



The dispute is the entire historical state of J&K and not just the valley.

The vally consitutes about 50% of the J&K population, with Jammu and Ladakh together providing the other 50%.

The valley residents DO NOT want a sepration from Jammu or Ladakh regions for obvious reasons and neither do they want to join Pakistan as per the survey. So making the valley alone independanct or giving it away to Pakistan will not satisfy them.


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## EjazR

dabong1 said:


> So basically the muslim regions want to be free of india and the majority hindu regions want to be with india......i could have told you that without doing a survey.



Well there are muslim majority districts in Jammu andcomprise almost 30% of the population. Similarly Ladakh is almost 45% mostly shia muslims.

The results of the survey are not new. It is the same results that we are seeing since the 2008 www.peacepolls.org or the Chatham house opinion survey.

However, we are still ignorant of any proper opinion surveys being conducted in Gilgit Baltistan to make an educated guess of what the entire historical J&K vote would look like. Maybe when GoP finally opens it up to media presence of Pakistani journalists are bold enough to that themselves will we see something.


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## EjazR

civfanatic said:


> Strange we lose moral ground pretty fast . India does not lose moral ground even after confirmed killing 70 unarmed men in 3 months and we llose it becuase two buildings were brunt (We even deny it and also condemn it )....perhaps in moral universe kashmir has already freed itself from India



The entire Indian civil society condemned the killing of civilians unless you have not been watching Indian media or following the news stories.

No international media or organisation did anything for the past three months. Even Pakistan hardly made a squeak about the situation. 

And who said that you burned the buildings. They have specifically said that Masrat Alam supporters and Hurriyat (G) workers have done it. Probably to put pressure on Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and under cut him. It was after all the Paksitani backed militants who killed his father. And when he tried to forge a unity with Geelani he rejected it.

So dear, you dont have to deny that you burned the building. Ofcourse the average Kashmir would not support that. But just like the freedom movement was hijacked by Pakistani backed militants in the early 90s, if people like you are no vigilant and dont' see beyond the slogans, it will go the same way. 

I think the tradegy with Kashmiris in the valley is that they have never had any honest or visionary leaders except probably Sheikh Abdullah and the tradegy still continues today. None ofthe current leaders particularly the sepratists have a global outlook that is necessary in this era and are confined to the valley. Had it not been for GoI unnecessary hostile attitude under Nehru and Indira to Sheikh Abdullah in the early years, the situation would have been quite different.


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## Rajput Warrior

@ejaz really did they condemn the killings?
While ur media says they r paid 500 rs each by ISI
They are addicts high on cocaine or heroine ISI sends.
They need holidays etc. etc..
When people like arundhati roy says give them FREEDOM u guys start abusing... calling her crackhead b,,,,, or s...

U guys truely have 2 faces.

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## bc040400065

magg said:


> This just shows how much paid guys are there in the protest. The real Kashmiris protesters only want independence and not to be sided with PAK.



India and RAW have more money than ISI and pakistan than why cannt you guys get few PAID protesters to hoist Indian flag in the ralley. ??? 

Really i feel sympathy for you indian members.


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## Areesh

> And who said that you burned the buildings. They have specifically said that Masrat Alam supporters and Hurriyat (G) workers have done it. Probably to put pressure on Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and under cut him. It was after all the Paksitani backed militants who killed his father. And when he tried to forge a unity with Geelani he rejected it.



The bulidings were burnt by the supporters of Hrriyat(G) and Musarrat Alam but the Govt of IOK files case against Mirwaiz. Lolzzz



> Hemmed in from all sides, the state government for the first time filed three cases against moderate Hurriyat chairman Mirwaiz Umer Farooq for yesterdays violence at Lal Chowk, which led to the burning down of a government office and damage to the clock tower.



Ministers house attacked, govt slaps FIRs against Mirwaiz for first time


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## bc040400065

Areesh said:


> By the way flag on the building in whatever position is the same as the one in the red circle. Both are Pakistani flags.



Actually these all are home made flags with hands stiching. ofcourse you cannot go and just buy Pakistan's flag in any bazar in IOK like we get in pakistan. So ignore the flag's condition just feel the emotions of the flag carriers.


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## Areesh

bc040400065 said:


> Actually these all are home made flags with hands stiching. ofcourse you cannot go and just buy Pakistan's flag in any bazar in IOK like we get in pakistan. So ignore the flag's condition just feel the emotions of the flag carriers.



Yeah I know bro. Was just countering some dumb answers by some Indians.


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## Patrician

AmericanPaki said:


> Who cares for these fake surveys.


*
humko maalom hai jannat ki haqeqat lakin
dil ke khush karne ko 'Ghalib' yeh khayal accha hai *

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## su-47

DGMO said:


> Any solution to the current problems will be along these lines, especially if MMS backs it vocally - that's from an Indian POV. But a realistic solution nonetheless.
> 
> The indecision and mess within Congress on how to handle the situation is allowing this to spiral out of control. I don't see the need to announce 'packages' on symbolic days like Eid, just speak to the separatists and get things moving!



Yes, i think its high time we split Indian Controlled Kashmir into 2 separate states: 
1) Jammu and Ladakh
2) Kashmir

Jammu and Ladakh have shown that they want to be part of India, and seprating these two regions from the valley will further consolidate our position there. And it will enable easier administration and development of these areas. 

As for the Kashmir valley, it should be process of winning the hearts and minds. More economic development and schools are needed. also, the security forces should be better trained and disciplined. if the people have a genuine problem with the forces stationed there, its our duty to alleviate those concerns as much as possible. 

Right now, Kashmir is not feeling the economic bloom that the rest of India is. We have to bring that bloom into Kashmir. SHOW them that they can benefit with India. SHOW the youth what they stand to gain by integration. That should be our long term Kashmir policy.


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## GUNNER

*India Mulls Diluting Army Powers in Kashmir *

*NEW DELHI, Sept 13, 2010 (AFP)* - The Indian government was set Monday to decide whether to partially lift a 20-year-old emergency law in the restive region of Kashmir in an attempt to break an escalating cycle of violence.

Security forces again enforced a strict curfew in Kashmir's main town of Srinagar during the day and another protester was shot dead in Bandipora district, in the north of the Muslim-majority region.

A total of 72 protesters and bystanders have been killed by security forces since June 11 when large street protests against Indian rule began, with each new death sparking a new cycle of violence.

Officials said Prime Minister Manmohan Singh would meet with senior ministers in New Delhi on Monday evening to decide whether to lift the Armed Forces Special Powers Act in four districts of the region.

The act was passed in 1990 soon after an insurgency against New Delhi rule erupted in the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley.

It gives Indian army and paramilitary troops sweeping powers to open fire, search houses, detain suspects and confiscate property, as well as protecting soldiers from prosecution.

Human rights groups have long campaigned against the legislation, which they say encourages abuses by the security forces and fails to meet international standards.

Kashmir chief minister Omar Abdullah has urged the government to withdraw the act, but has met with strong resistance from the Indian military.

Monday's curfew in Srinagar was called to prevent a planned separatist march to a small UN office that houses staff monitoring ceasefire violations along the Line of Control dividing Indian- and Pakistani-controlled Kashmir.

Barbed wire and iron barriers were erected to seal off the office in Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian Kashmir.

"A strict curfew is in force and action will be taken against violators," police announced in loud-speakers fitted to vehicles.


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## Urbanized Greyhound

regardless of the intentions of the GOI ....this move will convince the separatists that the Indian government is weak kneed and can be easily manipulated by organizing protests at will .....an absolutely fallacious move based on an ineffectual strategy.....UPA government has no concrete vision for kashmir....


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## SaifullahK

Srinagar, Sep 13: Protests in Kashmir suddenly took a new turn Monday with people in some areas taking to streets shouting anti-US slogans against reported desecration of holy Quran there. A mob also set ablaze a missionary school building during the protests. 

Police has opened fire at least at two places on the protesters leaving scores injured. 

Protesters shifting their anger from India to US staged demonstrations at Shalimar and Humhama in the city and in Budgam, Magam and Tangmarg areas.

Protests began after Iran based Press TV Sunday night relayed the news that a copy of the Holy Quran had been burned in the US. 
Unusually, the processions today did not see any anti-India or pro-freedom slogans. 

Chanting anti-US and pro-Islam slogans people marched in defiance of curfew and later clashed with paramilitary forces. 

Central forces fired at protesters in Shalimar and Humhama resulting in injuries to at least 20 people. Two of the injured have reportedly received serious injuries. 

Police used tear smoke shells to disperse a mob outside Police station Parimpora. Three persons Zahoor Ahmad, Muzaffar Ahmad and Bilal Ahmad Tantray were injured in the police action.

In Tangmarg mobs set ablaze branches of prestigious Tyndale Biscoe and Malinson Schools. The school founded in 1880 is the oldest educational institutions in Kashmir. The school was originally started by Christian missionaries to Kashmir and Tangmarg branch was opened only a few years back.

Qura'an Protests Spill Over To Valley, Biscoe Branch Set Ablaze


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## EjazR

Rajput Warrior said:


> @ejaz really did they condemn the killings?
> While ur media says they r paid 500 rs each by ISI
> They are addicts high on cocaine or heroine ISI sends.
> They need holidays etc. etc..
> When people like arundhati roy says give them FREEDOM u guys start abusing... calling her crackhead b,,,,, or s...
> 
> U guys truely have 2 faces.



HAve you been following the Indian media or just making your opinions based on forum comments. 

People from all over India have condemened HR violations. Chidambaram himself said that there are atleast 18 deaths that are undergoing investigations that were uncalled for.
And it is almost unanimous that Pakistan is now irrerelavant in the dispute. Unless you have not follwed the Indian media you woudlnt know that.

I think in this forum itself there are links to various talks shows that had the locals youths participating and expressing their opinions and you will see what I mean.

I can't beheld accountable if Pakistani media is not showing the true picture of what the Indian media is showing.

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## DGMO

su-47 said:


> Yes, i think its high time we split Indian Controlled Kashmir into 2 separate states:
> 1) Jammu and Ladakh
> 2) Kashmir
> 
> Jammu and Ladakh have shown that they want to be part of India, and seprating these two regions from the valley will further consolidate our position there. And it will enable easier administration and development of these areas.
> 
> As for the Kashmir valley, it should be process of winning the hearts and minds. More economic development and schools are needed. also, the security forces should be better trained and disciplined. if the people have a genuine problem with the forces stationed there, its our duty to alleviate those concerns as much as possible.
> 
> Right now, Kashmir is not feeling the economic bloom that the rest of India is. We have to bring that bloom into Kashmir. SHOW them that they can benefit with India. SHOW the youth what they stand to gain by integration. That should be our long term Kashmir policy.


I more or less follow your take on this buddy, but MMS has just mentioned 'the need for talks for those that abjure violence', and no repeal of AFSPA in certain areas (which had been expected). In short, that's no change and a continuation of the previous line. Can the separatists and others look at that and expect progress?

So the question is: Is GoI doing enough to 'win the hearts and minds?'. They're treading so slowly (difficult with the Army against any climbdown on AFSPA), but can a breakthrough be achieved with what is effectively a stalemate?

The worrying angle from an GoI perspective is that pre-Eid, there was a noticeable lull in protests for around 2 weeks. Things had died down, and the talk of many here that 'protests will all fall away after a month or so' seemed to be true. I mean, that's what we've witnessed through previous summers. But then the fire, the anger, the protests realight, as we saw on Eid.

Was it the slow response of the GoI during that pre-Eid lull that is to blame? Are the separatists so confident that they see no reason to take their foot of the gas?

There does seem to be a different dynamic this summer to the protests, one where a solution just doesn't seem to be in sight to quell the huge unrest.

So coming back to the survey, if we're going to treat the Valley as we say, then something needs to happen to get us there. Both the GoI and the separatists are detatched as ever.


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## Hafizzz

> Two thirds in Indian Kashmir want independence: poll
> Two thirds in Indian Kashmir want independence: poll - Yahoo! News
> 
> 
> 
> NEW DELHI, India (AFP)  About two thirds of residents in India-administered Kashmir want independence for their region, with less than one in ten seeking a merger with Pakistan, a survey showed Sunday.
> 
> The Kashmiri region is administered separately by India and Pakistan, with the Indian part subject to an insurgency and violent separatist movement for the last 20 years that has claimed an estimated 47,000 lives.
> 
> The poll, conducted for the Sunday Hindustan Times newspaper, showed that 66 percent of respondents in the Kashmir valley wanted "complete freedom to entire Jammu and Kashmir as a new country".
> 
> Jammu and Kashmir is the far northwestern state of India that includes the violence-wracked Muslim-majority Kashmir valley, the Hindu-majority region of Jammu and the mostly Buddhist Ladakh area.
> 
> Only six percent in Kashmir, where street violence flared again on Sunday, wanted a "complete merger of the entire Jammu and Kashmir in Pakistan."
> 
> The desire for independence for the state is not shared in the Jammu and Ladakh parts however, where 76 percent and 70 percent wanted a "complete merger" of the state into India.
> 
> Kashmir has a special status under the Indian constitution and was initially autonomous after partition of the subcontinent in 1947, though much of its autonomy has slowly been eroded.
> 
> The poll was conducted by Team CVoter and canvassed 2,369 people.
> 
> Respondents were also asked who was to blame for a current wave of unrest in the Kashmir area where young stone-throwers have clashed with security forces for the last three months.
> 
> Seventy protesters and bystanders -- some children -- have been killed, mostly by security forces who have fired on demonstrations.
> 
> In Kashmir, 56 percent blamed India for the unrest, while 44 percent of those asked in the "rest of India" thought neighbour and implacable foe Pakistan was responsible for stirring up trouble.
> 
> Majorities in all areas agreed that Indian forces should not use bullets against protesters, with 96 percent saying it was wrong in Kashmir, and 85 percent in the rest of India.
> 
> Two thirds thought it was wrong in Jammu, while 31 percent said it was acceptable.
> 
> On Sunday, Indian police fired shots and used teargas to control young Kashmiris who defied a strict curfew and separately attacked the residence of a senior local minister, police said.
> 
> The guards of Kashmir Education Minister Peerzada Mohammad Sayeed, who was unhurt, opened fire and lobbed teargas in southern Kokernag village to repulse an attack by stone-throwing protesters, a police spokesman said.
> 
> In the summer capital of Srinagar, scores of young men defied a curfew and held noisy demonstraions at two places, prompting security forces to fire teargas canisters and warning shots.
> 
> "One person has been brought here with head injuries," a doctor at Srinagar's main hospital said, asking not to be named.
> 
> Meanwhile, police filed a case against moderate separatist leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq over the burning of a government building allegedly by a mob during a protest rally on Saturday that he was leading.
> 
> He denied involvement. Other separatists blamed "anti-movement elements" for setting fire to the building and called for a probe into the arson.
> 
> Police said they had imposed a curfew on Sunday to prevent further violence.
> 
> The Muslim-majority Kashmir region has been fought over by India and Pakistan since the partition of British-ruled India in 1947, with the region now cut in two along a UN-monitored line of control.



If India is a democracy (Like she claims) then she should let Kasmir choose her own faith (fate).


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## GUNNER

*SRINAGAR, India, Sept 13, 2010 (AFP)* - Seven protesters and a policeman were killed Monday in Indian Kashmir in the most deadly day of violence since mass demonstrations against Indian rule began three months ago, police said.

A policeman and three protesters were killed during fierce clashes in central Budgam district, while another three died in western Tangmarg village after a mob torched a church-run school, local police officials told AFP.

An eighth man died in northern Bandipora district after security forces opened fire at stone-hurling protesters who were chanting slogans in support of Kashmiri independence.

*SRINAGAR, India, Sept 13, 2010 (AFP) *- 

Twelve protesters and a policeman were killed Monday in Indian Kashmir in the most deadly day of violence since mass demonstrations against Indian rule began three months ago, police said.

Recent separatist protests were further fuelled by rage about the desecration of the Koran in Washington on Saturday when a small group of Christians were filmed tearing pages from the holy book, police said.

A policeman and five locals were killed during fierce clashes in central Budgam district, while another five died in western Tangmarg village where a mob torched a church-run school, police officials told AFP.

Another man died in northern Bandipora district after security forces opened fire at stone-hurling protesters, while the twelfth victim was killed in southern Pampore town.

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## DGMO

Hafizzz said:


> If India is a democracy (Like she claims) then she should let Kasmir choose her own faith (fate).


Why do you make it sound so simple? 

The notion that a plebiscite is going to be held *WILL NEVER HAPPEN*. Get over it and deal with the situation as it stands.

The issues lie predominantly in the Valley. It's not about Kashmir as a whole. A solution must be found there, but that means less foot-dragging by the GoI and a greater desire to talk and produce tangible actions on the ground.

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## dabong1

EjazR said:


> Well there are muslim majority districts in Jammu andcomprise almost 30% of the population. Similarly Ladakh is almost 45% mostly shia muslims.
> 
> The results of the survey are not new. It is the same results that we are seeing since the 2008 www.peacepolls.org or the Chatham house opinion survey.



Thankyou for the breakdown........but i think my opinion holds true that the muslims dont want india while the hindus do.


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## SpArK

*India May Roll Back Security Laws In Bid to Ease Deadly Kashmir Protests*

India may revoke from parts of Kashmir laws that empower security forces to use lethal force and arrest suspects without a warrant as it seeks to end the latest violent protests of a 21-year uprising.

Senior security officials and ministers are scheduled to meet in New Delhi today to consider repealing the Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act from some regions of Kashmir in Indias northwest. An anti-India insurgency has killed at least 50,000 people in the Himalayan region since 1989. Demonstrations backing independence reignited in June when a police tear gas shell killed a young man.

Rolling back the Act could be a good beginning to stem escalating violence, said D. Suba Chandran, deputy director at the New Delhi-based Institute of Peace & Conflict Studies. Still, the Cabinet is divided on what could be the starting point for a sustained peace push, a process that would ultimately require giving Kashmiris greater autonomy, he said.

Pro-independence protesters in Kashmir, divided between India and Pakistan after independence from British rule in 1947, have defied curfews since the June killing. They have pelted police with stones, and burned offices and vehicles; police firing has killed at least 70 people.

Under the 1958 Act, army officers can order the use of firearms, detain suspects without a warrant and enter any building to carry out detentions in areas the government has declared disturbed. It was first applied to separatist-hit states in Indias northeast and extended to Kashmir in 1990.

Abusive Law

Human Rights Watch in 2008 urged India to repeal the special laws, arguing they had violated fundamental freedoms for 50 years. The Indian governments responsibility to protect civilians from attacks by militants is no excuse for an abusive law, Meenakshi Ganguly, its South Asia researcher, said in a report.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh told police chiefs on Aug. 26 that security forces need to develop non-lethal measures to control violent crowds. Home Minister Palaniappan Chidambaram said Kashmir is caught in a vicious cycle of protest and police firing.

Singh today told army commanders that Kashmiri grievances had to be addressed and economic opportunities increased.

Continuing tension in Kashmir is causing concern to all, Press Trust of India quoted Defense Minister A.K. Antony as saying. The Cabinet Committee on Security will discuss the situation in Kashmir seriously.

The main federal opposition Bharatiya Janata Party said any dilution of powers given to the armed forces in Kashmir will allow separatists insurgents to step up their fight.

India has long accused Pakistan of supporting guerrillas targeting Kashmir. Pakistan says it offers only moral support to separatist groups.


India May Roll Back Security Laws In Bid to Ease Deadly Kashmir Protests - Bloomberg


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## Valiant_Soul

Hafizzz said:


> If India is a democracy (Like she claims) then she should let Kasmir choose her own faith (fate).



Democracy does not means compromising one's territorial integrity. Democracy means giving all the freedom to the citizens that is lawfully correct.

The only reason the valley people want separation from India is because of religion and that is totally an unacceptable cause. When the rest of the Muslim population can live peacefully, what issues do they have? 

I am all for their cause, if it would have been just, but verily it is not.


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## SpArK

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/72620-india-may-roll-back-security-laws-bid-ease-deadly-kashmir-protests.html#post1132258


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## SnIPeR Xr

nForce said:


> How old are you exactly???
> 
> Well,when you will be a little more matured and have a little more idea about Economics and the financial situation of a country,then you will realize that the state of Pakistan is in a much worse condition politically ,socially and economically.It does not feature in the *top 10 list of Most Failed Countries* without a reason.
> 
> I can also very well understand the paradox of talking to somebody about India while he knows almost nothing about India.
> 
> In relation to the issues in India's north East,are you even aware of India's joint operations with Bhutan,and co-operations with Myanmar and Bangladesh???The militants were all flushed out long time back,with most of their leaders either killed or captured.
> 
> We don't even hear about militant attacks in Kashmir that much anymore,which was a daily norm even sometime ago.
> 
> Regarding Tamilnadu,well well well,do you have an iota of idea regarding what you are talking about???
> That state is one of the top GDP contributors of India,The 2007 estimate of Tamilnadu's GDP puts the figure at US $ 70billion.Now that is almost half of the GDP of entire Pakistan alone even if we calculate Pakistan's GDP by 2010's estimate.
> 
> 
> Let us just say that the general concern among people have led to the development of India.And our concern seems to be about everything that concerns India.
> 
> My suggestion to you.it will be better for you to get a bit concerned too.We had a Mumbai like attack some time ago.But you people experience attacks like that on daily basis.Sometimes Lahore,sometimes Karachi,sometimes Quetta....
> 
> .Also your economy looks like a shattered piece of glass to me.The government even had to take loan just to pay the salary of the employees.Your country has a forex reserve of US $ 16.7 billion while the external debt is well about US $ 53 billion
> 
> There has been a recent flood,probably the biggest ever for Pakistan.That flood has destroyed agricultural lands and left million without food.You please donate your pocket money to those people,we will take care of our army and our people.
> 
> 
> Also,do something about corruption in your country.From what I here,it seems Zardari recently bought a 140 million pound worth apartment recently even while a part of his country has just experienced floods.



Lol i was just kidding & you jumped into no matter what conclusions  
Sorry if my humor has increased the fire inside you .
Well I know each & every thing about Economy & Finance *But according to you we are very poor & our economic condition is very bad But here in in Azad Kashmir employment is not an issue.But according to you indian economy is very good But still employment is an issue in Indian occupied kashmir.*

Isn't it strange 

I didn't got any thing from your employment point.
But now i have drawn three conclusions.You have to select one option because this is the only way to remove confusion from your employment point(& this time its not funny).

Here are the three options:
_1.India is so poor that it cannot give employment to kashmiris.Because its been 60 years & employment is an issue in IOK.

2.Accept that employment is not an issue in kashmir,But IDEOLOGY is an issue.(by accepting that option you will prove that india is very rich)

3.Third & last option is accept that you dont want to give employment to kashmiris because you consider those kashmiris LOW LIFE & LOW CAST people just as you consider Dalits & Shoder Low life & low cast._

These are the 3 conclusions that anyone can draw from your employment point.
Now by accepting one of them you will remove the confusion & then we will proceed the debate. 

And about your failed nation point.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/63980-60-most-failed-countries-world-postcards-hell.html

This is your thread on PDF about failed nations and in this thread many indian members including you didn't agree with Pakistan being in top 10 failed nations
& now you are saying something else. 

*Watch Out you are turning away from your stance*


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Kashmir clashes lead to deaths​*
Last Modified: 13 Sep 2010 12:59 GMT





At least 13 protesters and a policeman dead in worst day of violence since protests against Indian rule began in June.

Monday's death toll was the highest since separatist protests broke out in June against Indian rule [AFP]

At least 13 protesters and a policeman have been killed in Kashmir in the most deadly day of violence since mass demonstrations against Indian rule began three months ago, Indian police say.

A police officer and three protesters were killed during fierce clashes in central Budgam district on Monday, while another three died in western Tangmarg village after a mob torched a church-run school, local police officials told AFP news agency.

Security forces shot live ammunition at some of the crowds, killing people in at least five different villages, according to a police officer, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorised to speak with media.

The death toll was the highest since separatist protests broke out in June against Indian rule in the northern state.

Tens of thousands of violent anti-Indian demonstrators have ignored an indefinite curfew and flooded the streets, burning government buildings and throwing rocks at police stations.

Kashmir clashes lead to deaths - Central & South Asia - Al Jazeera English

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## muse

Pressure seems to be building on the Indian - it's interesting to note the comments of US dept of state on the issue, as indeed is the coverage and in particular the titles of the articles that may appear in the US press about the issue. Will US duplicity create a positive effect for Indian policy?

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

muse said:


> it's interesting to note the comments of US dept of state on the issue, as indeed is the coverage and in particular the titles of the articles that may appear in the US press about the issue. Will US duplicity create a positive effect for Indian policy?



It doesn't seem to have done so in the case of Israel, if by positive you mean to imply policy changes resulting in a resolution of the dispute.


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## muse

> It doesn't seem to have done so in the case of Israel, if by positive you mean to imply policy changes resulting in a resolution of the dispute.




The US and Israel and the US and India have a strategic relationship - the US is also trapped in Afghanistan - so, we should look at statements by US department of state and we should look at what action the US may initiate in the UN.


An example of the duplicity of US policy is that it will not initiate any UN action - be 100&#37; sure of this -- UN action for the US is to club so called Muslim majority regimes/states and India happily does not qualify.


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## EjazR

These protests were about the rumours of Quran burning and burning missonary schools and churches is condemnable since they have nothing to do with the act itself. These acts are unIslamic and are tantamount of punishing someone for the crime of someone else. The slogans were anti-US not anti-Indian in this bout of violence.

Hence the US condemning the rioters for burning churches or schools is natural. Similar senseless violence was seen in a town in Punjab as well.

*US slams rioters in Kashmir, Punjab*

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

EjazR said:


> These protests were about the rumours of Quran burning and burning missonary schools and churches is condemnable since they have nothing to do with the act itself. These acts are unIslamic and are tantamount of punishing someone for the crime of someone else. The slogans were anti-US not anti-Indian in this bout of violence.
> 
> Hence the US condemning the rioters for burning churches or schools is natural. Similar senseless violence was seen in a town in Punjab as well.
> 
> *US slams rioters in Kashmir, Punjab*



The one involving the burning of a Church might have been related to the Quran burning issue, but the article does not make clear the case behind the others.

The protests against Indian occupation and the Quran burning are going on simultaneously, so it can be hard to distinguish, and arguably the two might feed off each other.


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## muse

> The slogans were anti-US not anti-Indian in this bout of violence.



What? Anti-US again? and yet the Indian killed 13 captive Kashmiri.

While the US slams the captive Kashmiri, what words of wisdom does it have for the Indian occupation forces?

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## notsuperstitious

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The one involving the burning of a Church might have been related to the Quran burning issue, but the article does not make clear the case behind the others.
> 
> The protests against Indian occupation and the Quran burning are going on simultaneously, so it can be hard to distinguish, and arguably the two might feed off each other.



I agree, the religious angle is strongly mixed in the anti India protests. Its no coincidence these protests erupt every year when its time for the Amarnath yatra.

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## muse

Maybe the Indian will move this Yatra thing, given the sensitivity of the people. Perhaps move it to south India or something.

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## notsuperstitious

muse said:


> Maybe the Indian will move this Yatra thing, given the sensitivity of the people. Perhaps move it to south India or something.



How long will we keep giving in to these intolerant bunch? The Kashmiri Pundits have already been destroyed, its time to move these intolerant protesters somewhere else.

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## muse

Easy Fateh, no reason to lose your cool.

So where are you guys move this Yatra thing?


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## EjazR

This bout of violence were 12 protesteors were shot to prevent further targeting of Christian minorities was specifically around Quran desecration that was shown by an Iranian TV channel. Otherwise just a day back government buildings were burnt and security forces exercised maximum restraint during much larger anti-Indian protests after Eid prayers. Not a single casualty was reported even though crores of property and local power dept. buildings were destroyed.

Kashmirsi are captive if they want to go around burning government property, schools and churches. If they want to peacefully protest against HR violations then rest of India will support them.

And of the 13th Kashmiris who died one was a local J&K policeman. Pakistanis seem to refuse to acknowledge the fact that the policemen firing are locals themselves.



> The protesters chanted "Down with Quran desecrators," and protest leaders denounced the alleged desecration in speeches to the crowds.
> 
> There were also shouts of "Down with America" and "Down with Israel" &#8212; rarely heard in Kashmir, where anger is normally only directed at India.
> 
> As the protests worsened, the station was removed from local cable networks at the insistence of Kashmiri authorities.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> Police said these demonstrations, attended by thousands in western Kashmir, quickly turned into separatist protests against the Indian central government &#8212; a day after authorities slapped a curfew on much of the restive Himalayan region.



Thirteen killed in India Kashmir, Koran protests | Reuters


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## EjazR

muse said:


> Easy Fateh, no reason to lose your cool.
> 
> So where are you guys move this Yatra thing?



Why sould it be moved when the local Kashmiris are against moving it?
Even Geelani says that he is not against the Yatra.

It has a history of thousands of years. You do know that Kashmiris were all hindus before they coverted to Islam and hence a lot of their sacred places still exist there.

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## rameez ahmed

InshaALLAH Indian soldiers will get their due now for their atrocity over innocent Kashmiris... InShaALLAH they will be destroyed ........

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

EjazR said:


> Pakistanis seem to refuse to acknowledge the fact that the policemen firing are locals themselves.


What is there to acknowledge?

The British ran security forces comprised mainly of local residents in oppressing the people in the colony of British India ...

Does the use of locals by the colonizers and occupiers delegitemize the validity of the cause of protesting occupation and a denial of the promised right of self-determination?

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## notsuperstitious

muse said:


> Easy Fateh, no reason to lose your cool.
> 
> So where are you guys move this Yatra thing?



No matey, not losing cool  as not moving the Yatra anywhere else. Only the bigoted protesters

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## muse

Yes, yes, "WERE" -- And what are now Hindus were just caste members and before that they were something else - don't trot out that rubbish and expect it to be persuasive.

Don't want to move it? then, don't - easy. eh? Why does the Secular Indian government seems to end up killing Muslims, even when the protests are anti-US? Or is it Anti-India and anti-US are the same thing? I think they might be in the minds of most captive Kashmiri.

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## ps80

rameez ahmed said:


> InshaALLAH Indian soldiers will get their due now for their atrocity over innocent Kashmiris... InShaALLAH they will be destroyed ........



Violence begets more violence....love enables love!

Allah se 'aman/shanti' ki duaa karo, friend!

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## EjazR

Not accurate comparison *AM* because

1. British never allowed Indians to be elected to positions of power and Indians did not vote to the BRitish parliament. Kashmiris can vote people to the Indian parliament and Kashmirs have been PMs of India and even now three ethnic Kashmiris hold central ministerial posts. Something impossible in colonial Britain

2. After the acession being singed, Kashmiris voted the first parliament decades before a similar exercise would be done in Pakistan, which became the constituent assembly. Following which the elected parliament ratified the ascession to India and passed land reforms becoming one of the first states in India to do so. Something like this was impossible in colonial British that actually worked hand in hand with the landlords, one of the reason why these landlords still hold so much sway in Pakistan.

3. The British had no cultural or linguistic ties with India, while Kashmir has extensive religious, cultural and linguistic ties with India.

and most importantly
4. Colonisation was for the economic exploitation of India and India's share to the worldGDP came down from 25&#37; during the Mughal era to under 2% by 1947. J&K state on the other hand has always recived net economic benefit from bothe center govt and also intra state from Jammu province that contributes 70% to state revenues.

Maybe other points could be listed but some just obvious ones are here.

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## EjazR

muse said:


> Yes, yes, "WERE" -- And what are now Hindus were just caste members and before that they were something else - don't trot out that rubbish and expect it to be persuasive.
> 
> Don't want to move it? then, don't - easy. eh? Why does the Secular Indian government seems to end up killing Muslims, even when the protests are anti-US? Or is it Anti-India and anti-US are the same thing? I think they might be in the minds of most captive Kashmiri.



Sorry I don't understand, when even the sepratists and pro-Pakistani elements like Geelani are not against the Yatra, they why should GoI move it. Besides the location of the shrine is in the Kashmir valley. How can that be moved? Its the physical location that is sacred.

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## notsuperstitious

muse said:


> Yes, yes, "WERE" -- And what are now Hindus were just caste members and before that they were something else - don't trot out that rubbish and expect it to be persuasive.
> 
> Don't want to move it? then, don't - easy. eh? Why does the Secular Indian government seems to end up killing Muslims, even when the protests are anti-US? Or is it Anti-India and anti-US are the same thing? I think they might be in the minds of most captive Kashmiri.



Violent protesters get the same response in India, infact the Kashmiri kinds have been given too much leeway, so much so that the Kashmiri Pundits can not return home and the Amarnath yatra has become a headache.

The secular govt must make sure these Hindu Kashmiri pundits are able to returm home, and anyone who opposes is dealt with in the severest of manner.


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## muse

> Kashmir has extensive religious, cultural and linguistic ties with India.



Which the Indian acknowledge by shooting the captive kashmiri to death?

No, I'm not making light of a serious issue, I was hoping to point out that tripe about "extensive ties" -- we may be related to, have "extensive ties" with a criminal, so what does that supposed to mean??

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

EjazR said:


> Not accurate comparison *AM* because
> 
> 1. British never allowed Indians to be elected to positions of power and Indians did not vote to the BRitish parliament. Kashmiris can vote people to the Indian parliament and Kashmirs have been PMs of India and even now three ethnic Kashmiris hold prime ministerial posts. Something impossible in colonial Britain


No comparison can be completely identical, but in both cases, regardless of the attempts by the Indian State to cover up its forced annexation of the territory and people of Kashmir, the fact is that the people and territory are forcibly occupied.


> 2. After the acession being singed, Kashmiris voted the first parliament decades before a similar exercise would be done in Pakistan, which became the constituent assembly. Following which the elected parliament ratified the ascession to India and passed land reforms becoming one of the first states in India to do so. Something like this was impossible in colonial British that actually worked hand in hand with the landlords, one of the reason why these landlords still hold so much sway in Pakistan.


Again, does not change the fact that the people and territory are occupied and denied the promised right to self-determination. Occupiers can implement any number of policies to legitemize their occupation and win over the occupied, the fact that the people are occupied however does not change, and it is patently obvious that in Kashmir the people refuse to accept Indian occupation.


> 3. The British had no cultural or linguistic ties with India, while Kashmir has extensive religious, cultural and linguistic ties with India.


So does Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal, or for that matter Afghanistan - that does not justify the occupation and annexation of Afghan/Pakistani/Sri lankan/Bangladeshi/Nepali territory by India.

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## muse

> when even the sepratists and pro-Pakistani elements like Geelani are not against the Yatra, they why should GoI move it



Well, obviously there is a need for greater education, to enhance their "sensitivity". 



> Its the physical location that is sacred.



Well, that has to be decided after greater sensitivity is achieved.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

the indian occupational forces (AKA the sissies) at it again......


RIP to the victims of this -and other - attacks. 







*&#1575;&#1606;&#1617;&#1575; &#1604;&#1604;&#1729; &#1608; &#1575;&#1606;&#1617;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1740;&#1607; &#1585;&#1575;&#1580;&#1593;&#1608;&#1606;*


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> 3. The British had no cultural or linguistic ties with India, while Kashmir has extensive religious, cultural and linguistic ties with India.



Indians should really stop using this canard to justify the occupation of Kashmir, because in reality it is code for claiming all of South Asia, since the argument can be extended to any nation in South Asia, as I pointed out above.

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## Bas_tum_Pak



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## notsuperstitious

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Indians should really stop using this canard to justify the occupation of Kashmir, because in reality it is code for claiming all of South Asia, since the argument can be extended to any nation in South Asia, as I pointed out above.



Taken out of context, its a canard. In reality the reverse logic can be applied to any of the parts of any of the countries you mentioned. By the same logic parts of Pakistan are indeed occupied territories too. Why do not Pakistanis use the same moral principles there, but instead resort to technical ones there?

Self interest, nothing else.

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## anurag_singh

muse said:


> Well, obviously there is a need for greater education, to enhance their "sensitivity".
> 
> 
> 
> *Well, that has to be decided after greater sensitivity is achieved.*



Let us assume, if tomorrow US will capture mecca then will you shift mosque to islamabad and decide sacredness of mecca later when greater sensitivity is achieved?


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## Areesh



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## Ingis

> Indian forces killed 13 protesters and wounded scores of others Monday in confrontations across Kashmir fueled in part by a report that a Quran was desecrated in the United States, a police official said. A police officer was also killed.



The Associated Press: India forces battle Kashmiri protesters; 14 killed

This report clearly highlights two points -- 

1) The protests were against alleged Quran desecration in US and were not primarily against India rule (though some foreign elements might have used this as an opportunity to ignite anti-India sentiments).

2) The death of the policeman clearly showcases how "peaceful" these Kashmiri protests are.


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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No comparison can be completely identical, but in both cases, regardless of the attempts by the Indian State to cover up its forced annexation of the territory and people of Kashmir, the fact is that the people and territory are forcibly occupied.


Better than starting a war by illegally invading an independent entity and creating a mess in the first place.

No matter how much you would like to believe in the illegality of accession of J&K to India, the fact remains that the whole world (except for some delusional entities) accept the legal document of accession. 

The rest of the sops 'promised' to Kashmiris depend solely on territorial integrity of the 'state' and not parts thereof. 

Anyway, as EzajR so clearly put it, Kashmiris has full representation to the Indian Parliament which their compatriots in other occupied territories are deprived of.


> Again, does not change the fact that the people and territory are occupied and denied the promised right to self-determination. Occupiers can implement any number of policies to legitemize their occupation and win over the occupied, the fact that the people are occupied however does not change, and it is patently obvious that in Kashmir the people refuse to accept Indian occupation.


Why should they be treated with 'kid gloves'? Why give them the 'right for self-determination'? Are they a special breed? Kashmir "struggle" was started by the Kashmiri pundits - who were conveniently driven out by moral sponsors of this unrest and now have usurped this movement on religious grounds. This is plain hypocrisy. 

I say scrape Article 370, fully integrate the whole state into Indian Union, let other Indians buy property in Kashmir (like they are allowed to buy property in other Indian states) and deport the trouble makers to build roads in NE.

Enough of this showing of so called 'moral support' by outsiders - based solely on religious grounds. Nothing else.


> So does Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal, or for that matter Afghanistan - that does not justify the occupation and annexation of Afghan/Pakistani/Sri lankan/Bangladeshi/Nepali territory by India.


If anyone signs a treaty of accession, then yes - J&K did, it is fully justified. Your argument doesn't hold weight AM.



> Well, obviously there is a need for greater education, to enhance their "sensitivity".


Yeah, we all see how that 'greater education promoting sensitivity' is unfolding in Pakistan. Keep that "education" to yourselves - thank you.

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## muse

It's unfortunate that the Indian claims all South Asians as Indians of a some sort or kind -- because given the opportunity, those Indians who could secure freedom for themselves, for their first act chose to not be Indian -- and this struggle continues to this day - Whether in captive Kashmir or in the disputed North East or in the East or in the deep South.

So it sems this idea of India should be examined more deeply - I'm not suggesting any doing away with present organized India, but simply to reexamine the basic assumptions, such as everyone was Hindu - there wasn't even such a thing as a Hindu until Muslims and English came - or that everyone was "Indian" - there has only been a India for 63 years. What is need is another set of ideas or basic assumptions that allow for greater inclusion.


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## Valiant_Soul

Some people cannot help but make it aptly clear that all these movements are basically of the nature of "Muslims against the rest". 

Some people really are unable to learn to co-exist - and that is why all such societies are doomed to end in a mess.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

fateh71 said:


> Taken out of context, its a canard. In reality the reverse logic can be applied to any of the parts of any of the countries you mentioned. By the same logic parts of Pakistan are indeed occupied territories too. Why do not Pakistanis use the same moral principles there, but instead resort to technical ones there?
> 
> Self interest, nothing else.



Not really - referendum in NWFP, Jirga's in Baluchistan and FATA, local assemblies/parties in favor in Punjab and Sindh.

The point being that a particular identity point (Muslims and Muslim majority territories) was used to advocate in favor of a particular idea, Pakistan, and the people of the territories constituting Pakistan agreed and accepted it in various ways.

In J&K India in fact promised a plebiscite, and further agreed to it in the UN, and in fact held a unilateral plebiscite when it invaded and occupied Junagadh that had acceded to Pakistan, so it has not allowed the kashmiris to enact that compact of Statehood with India, nor resolved the dispute with Pakistan, given the precedence of plebiscite she herself implemented in Junagadh.

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## muse

Isn't it more like Hindus against Muslims? Serves those Muslims right for being asleep, comatose for as long as they have been -- their awakening must be in freedom not slavery


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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> In J&K India in fact promised a plebiscite, and further agreed to it in the UN, and in fact held a unilateral plebiscite when it invaded and occupied Junagadh that had acceded to Pakistan, so it has not allowed the kashmiris to enact that compact of Statehood with India, nor resolved the dispute with Pakistan, given the precedence of plebiscite she herself implemented in Junagadh.



There were no parts or areas of Junagadh under Pakistani occupation. Secondly, Junagadh was a Hindu majority state ruled by Muslim ruler. Pakistan accepting Junagadh's accession went against the very reason for Pakistan's creation - a state for the sub-continent's Muslims.

So a referendum in Junagadh was a very easy thing to do. Unlike J&K (and NOT only Kashmir) which has parts under occupation by two other countries.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Complete and utter nonsense, distortion and double standards.


gubbi said:


> Better than starting a war by illegally invading an independent entity and creating a mess in the first place.


You mean like India did in invading the territory of Junagadh and Hyderabad, and forcibly annexing them, in the former case AFTER the territory had acceded to Pakistan?



> No matter how much you would like to believe in the illegality of accession of J&K to India, the fact remains that the whole world (except for some delusional entities) accept the legal document of accession.


I see no respect from India for the accession of Junagadh to Pakistan, or for that matter for the wishes of the ruler of the State of Hyderabad.

The 'delusional entities' would comprise most of the world.



> Anyway, as EzajR so clearly put it, Kashmiris has full representation to the Indian Parliament which their compatriots in other occupied territories are deprived of.


Does not change the fact that they are forcibly occupied and denied the right to self-determination that India promised and in fact argued as the overriding means of establishing legitimacy in accession with its actions in Junagadh.


> Why should they be treated with 'kid gloves'? Why give them the 'right for self-determination'? Are they a special breed? Kashmir "struggle" was started by the Kashmiri pundits - who were conveniently driven out by moral sponsors of this unrest and now have usurped this movement on religious grounds. This is plain hypocrisy.


Why? Because India herself established self-determination as the main principle in invading and annexing the State of Junagadh, after its accession to Pakistan, and then holding a unilateral plebiscite.


> I say scrape Article 370, fully integrate the whole state into Indian Union, let other Indians buy property in Kashmir (like they are allowed to buy property in other Indian states) and deport the trouble makers to build roads in NE.


Shift to complete colonization in other words ...


> If anyone signs a treaty of accession, then yes - J&K did, it is fully justified. Your argument doesn't hold weight AM.


India herself agreed to plebsicite as overriding the instrument of accession in agreeing to the UNSC resolutions, and in ignoring the accession by the State of Junagadh to Pakistan, and claiming that its unilateral plebiscite legitimized Indian rule.

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## Valiant_Soul

muse said:


> So it sems this idea of India should be examined more deeply - I'm not suggesting any doing away with present organized India, but simply to reexamine the basic assumptions, such as everyone was Hindu - there wasn't even such a thing as a Hindu until Muslims and English came



The fact that the term "Hindu" was not coined before the Muslims came does not extincts their existence from history. The people who are so 
staunch against "Hindu India" may not even realize that their own ancestry runs back to what is now known as Hinduism.


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## muse

But why stop back at "Hindu" why not go even further back?

---------- Post added at 03:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------

Or why go back at all?


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## Valiant_Soul

Because there is nothing further back to Hinduism. Or if not go back at all, then the present is India, isn't it? Then what is the ground for demand for separation?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> There were no parts or areas of Junagadh under Pakistani occupation. Secondly, Junagadh was a Hindu majority state ruled by Muslim ruler. Pakistan accepting Junagadh's accession went against the very reason for Pakistan's creation - a state for the sub-continent's Muslims.


There could not be parts of Junagadh under Pakistani occupation since the State had already acceded to Pakistan and was therefore Pakistani territory, if you go by the argument of accession as being the overriding means of legitimacy.The instrument of accession had been signed a month before the official Indian invasion, and there was plenty of diplomatic communication between India and Pakistan on the issue to argue 'ignorance of accession'.

And the conditions of accession of Princely States did not involve taking into account the ideology of the two countries, so the argument about Pakistan being a State for Muslims is a completely flawed and irrelevant one.


> So a referendum in Junagadh was a very easy thing to do. Unlike J&K (and NOT only Kashmir) which has parts under occupation by two other countries.



India was the occupying entity, it had no right to hold anything in Junagadh without going through the UN or asking Pakistan's permission. And the difficulty of holding a plebiscite in J&K is precisely why the UN was approached on the issue, passed resolutions and initiated commissions to propose solutions. Holding a plebiscite in J&K is not impossible, it is merely not in Indian interests to do so, rather hypocritically given that the Hindus in Junagadh were given a plebiscite within months.


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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Complete and utter nonsense, distortion and double standards.
> You mean like India did in invading the territory of Junagadh and Hyderabad, and forcibly annexing them, in the former case AFTER the territory had acceded to Pakistan?
> I see no respect from India for the accession of Junagadh to Pakistan, or for that matter for the wishes of the ruler of the State of Hyderabad.


I have clearly stated why accession of Junagadh & Hyderabad and its acceptance by Pakistan holds no moral or legal ground. Period. 


> The 'delusional entities' would comprise most of the world.


No wonder, Pakistan sees itself existing in another universe/dimension. Time to wake up before its too late.


> Does not change the fact that they are forcibly occupied and denied the right to self-determination that India promised.


Last time I read, it was J&K and its people who invited India and Indian forces to help thwart Pakistani aggression against their state. We helped on certain terms and conditions. Nothings for free you see. So pray, do tell me how does it make it a forced occupation?


> Shift to complete colonization in other words ...


If thats the definition of integration (an act which will open doors for prosperity to the people there) in your dictionary, the so be it.


> India herself agreed to plebsicite as overriding the instrument of accession in agreeing to the UNSC resolutions, and in ignoring the accession by the State of Junagadh to Pakistan, and claiming that its unilateral plebiscite legitimized Indian rule.


Plebiscite in the entire territory of J&K. Read that sentence again. It is India's decision (didnt Pakistan agree to those UN resolutions?) how and when (if ever) to hold a plebiscite. What has Pakistan to do with it? Why are you people interfering in this?

Parts of J&K are under occupation by two other countries. The very fact that Pakistan gives China leeway with territorial control of some parts and its insistence that those territories would be resolved AFTER the plebiscite, clearly shows that Pakistan is NOT interested in what Kashmiris want (let alone people form other parts of the state).

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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And the conditions of accession of Princely States did not involve taking into account the ideology of the two countries, so the argument about Pakistan being a State for Muslims is a completely flawed and irrelevant one.


It is relevant. That or the very reason for creation of Pakistan is flawed. 


> India was the occupying entity, it had no right to hold anything in Junagadh without going through the UN or asking Pakistan's permission. And the difficulty of holding a plebiscite in J&K is precisely why the UN was approached on the issue, passed resolutions and initiated commissions to propose solutions. Holding a plebiscite in J&K is not impossible, it is merely not in Indian interests to do so, rather hypocritically given that the Hindus in Junagadh were given a plebiscite within months.


Pakistan hesitated accepting Junagadh's and Hyderabad's accession. That hesitation should explain what your leaders at that time were thinking.
Secondly, though accession was later accepted, there was no way that Pakistan could put in place an administrative machinery and neither were there troops to "defend" territorial integrity. Pakistan knew they were a lost cause and held no moral grounds for any justification and thats why, attention was shifted to Kashmir. 
Basically, those territories were never yours, in any sense of the term, so any argument holds no weight.


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## GUNNER

*NEW DELHI, Sept 13, 2010 (AFP)* - India's government said it was "deeply distressed" by violence in Kashmir after the worst day of rioting since a wave of anti-India protests began in the Muslim-majority region in June.

In a statement at the end of a special cabinet meeting on Kashmir, the government said it was "deeply distressed by the turn of events since Eid and especially the events that took place today following certain rumours". 

It expressed "its profound grief at the loss of life and offers its sincere condolences to the bereaved families".


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## muse

> there is nothing further back to Hinduism.




Just when I thought you were serious -- But we can agree to disagree. If one argues that Hindu is the totality of India, then of course you will continue to have the probelms you do, because it is clearly not acceptable to people. 

O


> r if not go back at all, then the present is India, isn't it?



No, it's not, clearly - look at the evidence, clearly the present day Indian state thinks that it will unravel if the states that today form "India" are allowed to be free.




> Then what is the ground for demand for separation?


Listen, if they are Indian, they can do what they want with themselves, if they can't they are "captive"


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> I have clearly stated why accession of Junagadh & Hyderabad and its acceptance by Pakistan holds no moral or legal ground. Period.


More lies - what legal ground under the rules of partition prevented the accession of Junagadh to Pakistan? And its rather rich of an Indian to argue 'moral ground' when you blatantly occupy and annex Junagadh and claim legitimacy under the basis of plebiscite, yet refuse that right to the people of Kashmir, as promised them in the UN.


> No wonder, Pakistan sees itself existing in another universe/dimension. Time to wake up before its too late.


Snide comments don't change the fact that the majority of the world sees J&k as disputed territory. Lets not forget that it is only on google.in that the delusional map of Kashmir is displayed, and reality shown to the rest of the world.


> Last time I read, it was J&K and its people who invited India and Indian forces to help thwart Pakistani aggression against their state. We helped on certain terms and conditions. Nothings for free you see. So pray, do tell me how does it make it a forced occupation?


No, the people of Kashmir were in fact up in rebellion against the disctator Mahrajah and his atrocities and discrimination against the local Muslim population, and it was the dictator that invited India into Kashmir, not the people of Kashmir.

And again, you cannot argue for the legitimacy of accession when India herself ignored accession in the case of Junagadh and Hyderabad.


> If thats the definition of integration (an act which will open doors for prosperity to the people there) in your dictionary, the so be it.


That is the definition of colonization and the eradication of a distinct community, Kashmiris.


> Plebiscite in the entire territory of J&K. Read that sentence again. It is India's decision (didnt Pakistan agree to those UN resolutions?) how and when (if ever) to hold a plebiscite. What has Pakistan to do with it? Why are you people interfering in this?


Ahh, so when did Pakistan make a decision to hold a plebiscite in Junagadh? And certainly, the UNSC resolutions call for a plebiscite in the entire State of j&K, and several commissions have proposed plans to accomplish that, lets have it then.


> Parts of J&K are under occupation by two other countries. The very fact that Pakistan gives China leeway with territorial control of some parts and its insistence that those territories would be resolved AFTER the plebiscite, clearly shows that Pakistan is NOT interested in what Kashmiris want (let alone people form other parts of the state).


The various UN commissions proposed several means of dealing with these issues.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> It is relevant. That or the very reason for creation of Pakistan is flawed.


Not at all. Jinnah's speech addressing all religious groups in Pakistan after Pakistan's independence clearly explains that. And you have not provided any legal justification against the accession of Junagadh to Pakistan. Quite frankly, Pakistan's ideology is none of your business in the context of accessions.


> Pakistan hesitated accepting Junagadh's and Hyderabad's accession. That hesitation should explain what your leaders at that time were thinking.


Pakistan accepted Junagadh's accession, the instrument of accession was delivered to Pakistan, and the communication between India and Pakistan clearly explain Pakistan's position on the issue. Hyderabad never actually acceded to either country before it was invaded by India.


> Secondly, though accession was later accepted, there was no way that Pakistan could put in place an administrative machinery and neither were there troops to "defend" territorial integrity. Pakistan knew they were a lost cause and held no moral grounds for any justification and thats why, attention was shifted to Kashmir.
> Basically, those territories were never yours, in any sense of the term, so any argument holds no weight.


The logistical issues of running Junagadh were Pakistan's problem to deal with, not yours. Pakistan did after all have two wings separated by an even larger expanse of Indian territory than Junagadh.

Again, there is no legal or 'moral' case you have against the accession of Junagadh to Pakistan.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Valiant_Soul said:


> Because there is nothing further back to Hinduism.


What nonsense - Hindus sprouted magically out of the ground in Kashmir?

Apparently you belong to the 'creationist' school of thought, never mind human evolution and migration.


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## karan.1970

muse said:


> Easy Fateh, no reason to lose your cool.
> 
> So where are you guys move this Yatra thing?



So tell me honestly, Is it at all possible to move the location of the Haj yatra for Muslims.. What ever may be the reason? In the same way, its not possible for Amarnath Yatra to be moved as well. 

But I guess you already know that and the intent of your question was something else ...

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## Valiant_Soul

muse said:


> Just when I thought you were serious -- But we can agree to disagree. If one argues that Hindu is the totality of India, then of course you will continue to have the probelms you do, because it is clearly not acceptable to people.



Which people? The ones who do not know how to live like a human, in co-existence? I would not care for such narrow-mindedness.



> No, it's not, clearly - look at the evidence, clearly the present day Indian state thinks that it will unravel if the states that today form "India" are allowed to be free.



Whatever is your definition of freedom, it is flawed. And hence you have problems correlating the stance of Indians.



> Listen, if they are Indian, they can do what they want with themselves, if they can't they are "captive"



Of course, they can do what they do with themselves. They can even choose to move out or stay here in peaceful co-existence. Even if they consider India to be occupier, they cannot call her an oppressor, and since they are not oppressed and free under the law, their demands are unjust.


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## Valiant_Soul

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Apparently you belong to the 'creationist' school of thought, never mind human evolution and migration.



Apparently I do, because that makes the foundations of the society more pious and worthy of living. Besides, the length of history is not known to anyone, and anyone who claims such is a beguiler.


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## muse

> Which people? The ones who do not know how to live like a human, in co-existence? I would not care for such narrow-mindedness.



You guys - Indians just killed 13 of them and complain that "they" don't want to co-exist? -- clearly not on Indian terms, at least. THINK!!




> Even if they consider India to be occupier, they cannot call her an oppressor, and since they are not oppressed and free under the law, their demands are unjust



I'm not going to take advantage of your emotional state -- think about things before you express them on a public forum.


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## karan.1970

muse said:


> Yes, yes, "WERE" -- And what are now Hindus were just caste members and before that they were something else - don't trot out that rubbish and expect it to be persuasive.
> 
> Don't want to move it? then, don't - easy. eh? Why does the Secular Indian government seems to end up killing Muslims, even when the protests are anti-US? Or is it Anti-India and anti-US are the same thing? I think they might be in the minds of most captive Kashmiri.



Though no Pakistani will readily agree to this, but even in Kashmir, protestors can not be given a free hand to become riotous. If violent riots / activities are not checked, they result in deaths too. Mostly of people who are not even involved. Like we saw in Karachi.

So if people are to be killed either way, its better that its security forces aiming at people causing these riots than rioters causing death of bystanders.

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## muse

> even in Kashmir, protesters can not be given a free hand to become riotous.



I'm not suggesting that protesters or rioters be given as you put it "a free hand" -- though Killing protesters does suggest that occupation forces find themselves under tremendous strain -- these killings will be responded to - we all know this - and of course this will be upping the ante - whose interest other than those who seek military confrontation will that serve?


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## Valiant_Soul

muse said:


> You guys - Indians just killed 13 of them and complain that "they" don't want to co-exist? -- clearly not on Indian terms, at least. THINK!!



I think it you who need to think. Think that these things do not happen un-provocatively. Think about violent protests, not jut a day of protest, months of on going violent protests.



> I'm not going to take advantage of your emotional state -- think about things before you express them on a public forum.



I am never emotional. So perhaps you need to figure when a person is under emotions and when under logics.


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## notsuperstitious

muse said:


> I'm not suggesting that protesters or rioters be given as you put it "a free hand" -- though Killing protesters does suggest that occupation forces find themselves under tremendous strain -- these killings will be responded to - we all know this - and of course this will be upping the ante - *whose interest other than those who seek military confrontation will that serve*?



Now you have hit the crux of the problem, now the question is, who seeks military confrontation, they are the ones fuelling the violence.

One policeman was run over by peaceful protesters in a lorry today, who is fuelling this? Look no further than the beneficiary.


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## HariSeldon

EjazR said:


> *US slams rioters in Kashmir, Punjab*



hmmm...thats interesting turn-of-events. As west is not-that-interested at this point in commenting abt Kashmir situation, Will not these type of action by the protesters will alienate them further from west, whose support they require very much to create pressure on GoI?


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## muse

> Now you have hit the crux of the problem, now the question is, who seeks military confrontation, they are the ones fuelling the violence.
> 
> One policeman was run over by peaceful protesters in a lorry today, who is fuelling this? Look no further than the beneficiary.



Are you saying US policies and anti-Muslim sensitivities and events in the US have resulted in rioting and the shooting death of 13 captive kashmiri by occupation forces?

Indian friends imagine they will find comfort in pointing fingers at Pakistan -- and it's no secret that freedom for the captive Kashmiri has widespread support in Pakistan - but those Indian military planner who imagine that India today enjoy superiority and can deliver a punch that will once and for all put an end to freedom for the captives, are mistaken.

Yes, it's true that Pakistani forces are focused on fighting terror and offering relief operations in the aftermath of the floods, but that does not mean they are not keeping an eye on Indian troop movements.

So, it would be tragic if there is a miscalculation in some Indian military circles. The US mission in ASIA will be threatened with failure if it should once again, come out against Muslims. That must not happen again.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

to all Pakistani comrades:

click here

India forces battle Kashmiri protesters; 15 killed - Yahoo! News


and comment on it; a lot of the commenters have a distorted view of Islam; and of Pakistan's stance on Kashmir. Even small measures like this can make a difference. I saw many interesting comments on there actually.


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## Camdor

If its about HUman Rights Violation I will be the 1st one to condemn the killings but if its about freedom based on religion then I will be the first one to support its suppression!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

to all Pakistani comrades:

click here

India forces battle Kashmiri protesters; 15 killed - Yahoo! News


and comment on it; a lot of the commenters have a distorted view of Islam; and of Pakistan's stance on Kashmir. Even small measures like this can make a difference. I saw many interesting comments on there actually.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

to all Pakistani comrades:

click here

India forces battle Kashmiri protesters; 15 killed - Yahoo! News


and comment on it; a lot of the commenters have a distorted view of Islam; and of Pakistan's stance on Kashmir. Even small measures like this can make a difference. I saw many interesting comments on there actually.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

to all Pakistani comrades:

click here

India forces battle Kashmiri protesters; 15 killed - Yahoo! News


and comment on it; a lot of the commenters have a distorted view of Islam; and of Pakistan's stance on Kashmir. Even small measures like this can make a difference. I saw many interesting comments on there actually.


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## WHF

muse said:


> Maybe the Indian will move this Yatra thing, given the sensitivity of the people. Perhaps move it to south India or something.



I guess Yatra should be done at hazrat bal, new place for Shiv ji..


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## desiman

keep Dreaming


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## desiman

We know who is fueling all this unrest in Kashmir, it has been made quite obvious. Dont worry, we will pay back handsomely. Two can play this game.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

EjazR said:


> These protests were about the rumours of Quran burning and burning missonary schools and churches is condemnable since they have nothing to do with the act itself. These acts are unIslamic and are tantamount of punishing someone for the crime of someone else. The slogans were anti-US not anti-Indian in this bout of violence.



i think more foreign media should be allowed in to cover the event

i think the hindustanys are exaggerating the extent to which it was an anti-US (as opposed to anti-hindustany occupation) focused protest


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## Rafael

EjazR said:


> HAve you been following the Indian media or just making your opinions based on forum comments.
> 
> People from all over India have condemened HR violations. Chidambaram himself said that there are atleast 18 deaths that are undergoing investigations that were uncalled for.
> And it is almost unanimous that Pakistan is now irrerelavant in the dispute. Unless you have not follwed the Indian media you woudlnt know that.
> 
> I think in this forum itself there are links to various talks shows that had the locals youths participating and expressing their opinions and you will see what I mean.
> 
> I can't beheld accountable if Pakistani media is not showing the true picture of what the Indian media is showing.



If your civil society and media coverage can bring back the lives of those who have departed, then I am all for it!


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## RollingStones

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> to all Pakistani comrades:
> 
> click here
> 
> India forces battle Kashmiri protesters; 15 killed - Yahoo! News
> 
> 
> and comment on it; a lot of the commenters have a distorted view of Islam; and of Pakistan's stance on Kashmir. Even small measures like this can make a difference. I saw many interesting comments on there actually.



Dont bother. You cannot win over us in the west with the fanatical Islamic version. We like to deal with only moderate Islamic parties and Islamic intellectuals. I saw videos of Kashmir protests and they look right out of some fanatical Islamic country with uneducated, rag tag people hurling stones. No one will support a movement like that, just to let you know.

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## LaBong

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i think more foreign media should be allowed in to cover the event
> 
> i think the hindustanys are exaggerating the extent to which it was an anti-US (as opposed to anti-hindustany occupation) focused protest



They tried to burn a Church, anybody who's trying to burn a place of worship will be met with live bullets regardless of them protesting against India, USA or Pakistan for that matter.

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## majesticpankaj

its high time, pakistan should attack india and save kashmiris from indian atrocities.


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## muse

Hindus who burnt churches seemed not to have been greeted with bullets - in secular India - curious that.


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## Swift

I will wait for tomorrows news paper to check if *"India has lost Kashmir"*


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## desiman

RollingStones said:


> Dont bother. You cannot win over us in the west with the fanatical Islamic version. We like to deal with only moderate Islamic parties and Islamic intellectuals. I saw videos of Kashmir protests and they look right out of some fanatical Islamic country with uneducated, rag tag people hurling stones. No one will support a movement like that, just to let you know.



Well said


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Abir said:


> They tried to burn a Church, anybody who's trying to burn a place of worship will be met with live bullets regardless of them protesting against India, USA or Pakistan for that matter.



wish you had similar outlook in 1984; or at Gujrat and of course Orissa.


pity!


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## LaBong

muse said:


> Hindus who burnt churches seemed not to have been greeted with bullets - in secular India - curious that.



Well in my state at least they will be. Togaria and his kind don't really represent India y'know.

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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> wish you had similar outlook in 1984; or at Gujrat and of course Orissa.
> 
> 
> pity!



I agree that 1984 and Gujrat etc should have been dealt in the same manner.. But then one learns from ones mistakes. The fact that you failed to act historically, can not give a blank check for a repeat in future as well.

This is very similar to Pakistan acting against the extremists post 2001 attack on the US and not before that. There is always an inflexion point when strategies change..

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## indiaworldpower

HAIDER said:


> Whether Kashmir gets freedom or not, India, for sure, is going to lose its ground completely in the valley
> 
> Mehdi Siddique
> After achieving freedom from the colonial British rule in 1947, India declared itself a democratic country. A country where none shall be oppressed and all will be given equal chances to grow economically, socially and morally regardless of their language, colour, creed, and religion etc.
> 
> Accordingly a constitution was framed which gave these opportunities to its citizens and all were directly obliged to adhere to the constitution. Nevertheless, the citizens of India were given some basic and important rights, which aimed to uplift a common citizen and help him to come out of the major problems. These rights came to be known as Fundamental Rights. The seven fundamental rights recognised by the constitution are right to equality, right to freedom, right to freedom from exploitation, right to freedom of religion, cultural and educational rights, right to constitutional remedies and right to education.
> 
> And now, after 63 years of Independent India, we witness a new India, which it never was supposed to be. People of India never fought to see a day like this, when their own made government would have no respect for the sentiments, and feelings for the people which they claim to be their own very part. We now witness a so called big democracy in a big crisis.
> 
> Kashmir- the so called integral part of India has lost 100 thousand lives just to attain something which is very much democratic, constitutional, and just in nature. Fundamentally, people of Kashmir want peace. What does the Indian constitution say about those who want to live in peace, those who dont want to see their kith and kin killed by the CRPF bullets?
> 
> But, as already mentioned, the present day India is not the India it was supposed to be. The government of India is afraid to address the vexed issue of Kashmir and solve the dispute in accordance to the wishes and aspirations of Kashmiri people.
> 
> On one hand the government of India claims Kashmir to be its integral part and on the other it is detaining the people of Kashmir of the fundamental rights which it should grant to Kashmiris if its claim is true. If Kashmir is really an integral part of India then why:
> 
> 1. More then 52 civilians were killed by the Paramilitary forces in last twos months unrest, more than 60 killed since June, 11, 2010 and more than 100 thousand people were killed in last two decades. To this the government both at centre and state replies that- these civilians are not civilians at all, they carry stones in their hands and provoke the Paramilitary forces. If this is the case then why- in Mumbai, Delhi etc water tanks are used to disperse the protestors (who carry the same stones) while here no other option is found but to open fire at the angry mobs. And it is even more ironical to see that out of the 31 patients with the bullet injuries, admitted in SKIMS on Aug 2, 2010, 15 have been shot above the legs with 14 on head. Protection of life and personal liberty is mentioned in the Article 21 of Indian constitution which the Indian government is itself defying in Kashmir.
> 
> 2. Local population is being harassed for peaceful protest; even those protesting over FACEBOOK are not spared. And FIR is being hammered on all of them. What has happened to the freedom of speech which is supposed to be the fundamental right of every citizen of India, are the commoners not even allowed to raise their voices over the unending blood bath?
> 
> 3. Kashmiris, specifically, when outside state are harassed in hotels, motels etc and are often wrongly convicted as terrorists etc. They are always looked upon with suspicion and doubt. Hence Kashmiris are even deprived of the first fundamental right which Indian constitution grants to its citizens, that is the right to equality.
> 
> 4. 7 lakh troopers have been deployed and many of the battalions are stationed in populated areas. The total population of Kashmir is around 80 lakh which means the troops-civilian ratio is 1:10 which is highest in the entire world.
> 
> These points are enough to prove that the claim of India that Kashmir is their integral part if hollow in totality. How can it be an integral part of India when the basic rights which are enjoyed by each and every Indian citizen are not granted to Kashmiris? In reality, the so called one of the biggest democracies of the world is at war with the people of Kashmir.
> 
> Moreover, the government of India seems to be least concerned in even addressing the issue of Kashmir in a proper way. They wait until the situation goes from bad to worse. There were seldom any serious talks before the August, 2008 protests in Kashmir which was originally triggered by Amarnath land issue. For the time being talks continued under the banner of Quiet diplomacy which no one has ever explained and no one ever understood. Similarly, the seriousness and concern of India rose only after the killings in June, 11 this year.
> 
> India has lost Kashmir because of its own faults. The Indian government has never accepted their faults where they should have. Had Indian government been more sincere in approach, maybe, the situation would not have been worse as it is today. Had it employed democratic tools which it claims to abide by, may be the situation would not have been so disastrous.
> 
> At the top of it, New Delhi is using the wrong tactics to tackle the Kashmir issue. This is what it has become, more of a tackling nature than resolving one. Where Kashmiris are demanding revocation of the draconic laws like AFSPA and troop reduction and demilitarisation in public areas, state government supported by the centre is keen in pumping in even army, more units of CRPF and now Rapid Action Force (RAF) is all set to find its stake in the valley too. This clearly shows that Indian government is miscalculating the facts somewhere. They are not reaching out to the people of Kashmir and are not interested in knowing as to what the demands of the people are. This is where India as a democratic country has landed just after 63 year of its independence.
> 
> It should be noted that the spirit of azadi amongst the masses is very strong at the grass roots level. It will be an utter non-sense to term that it is being fostered by Pakistan, ISI or any separatist group.
> 
> All this depicts that the government of India is purely lacking the fundaments of Kashmir issue and in some way or other lack of seriousness in resolving the Kashmir issue can be widely seen now on their part.
> 
> At this point it is not only Kashmiri people who are undergoing turmoil but the Indias image as a big democracy in the world is at stake too. The way India is operating in Kashmir right now might make it the clone of Israel in the eyes of the Muslims and other humanely people of the whole world. And who knows this might even lead to the boycott of Indian products and services across the world. Boycotting upcoming Common Wealth Games scheduled at New Delhi is already the talk of the town now. Whether Kashmir gets freedom or not India is for sure going to lose its ground completely from the valley. And now the sincerity of India towards resolving Kashmir issue is at real test, if it is sincere then revoking AFSPA, demilitarisation from the public and market areas will be a first step forward. Let India weigh its democratic image in the real scale.
> India has lost Kashmir



Buddy, If you are quoting Indian constitution, then also quote that it does not allow any part of the land to be seperated from the country. To fulfil this perticur clause, government need to supress the seperatist movement.

Regarding your point on opportunities for Kashmiri people, they are getting more economic packages than any other state in this country. Even after that they want to seperate from India and go to Pakistan, sorry, it won't happen no matter how many people die in this country.


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## LaBong

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> wish you had similar outlook in 1984; or at Gujrat and of course Orissa.
> 
> 
> pity!



Knew this is coming. 84 was politically motivated riot. Gujrat was sad chapter where a regional state govt went rogue. Anyway one wrong doesn't make another right. Burning a place of worship must not be tolerated.

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## muse

> Togaria and his kind don't really represent India y'know.


 
And Modi his kind?


And that lune Thackeray does not represent Maharashtra?

Look, all I'm pointing to is that in "secular India" rules of the game are or at least appear to be different depending on the confession of players.


There will be a response to this massacre of the 13 - we all know it - and then what? Whom will you blame, besides Pakistan, of course?

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## LaBong

muse said:


> And Modi his kind?
> 
> 
> And that lune Thackeray does not represent Maharashtra?
> 
> Look, all I'm pointing to is that in "secular India" rules of the game are or at least appear to be different depending on the confession of players.
> 
> 
> There will be a response to this massacre of the 13 - we all know it - and then what? Whom will you blame, besides Pakistan, of course?



Modi neither, nor Ram sene goons, Bajrangs also, add SIMI to the list as well, hope I got my point across. 

Once again, with due respect to Kashmiris struggle, those 13 deserved it if they tried to burn a Church. Any future response even can't be taken into consideration in this case, the day response by bigots will decide country's policy, I'll shut down my system, say goodbye to civilization and join Maoists or whatever near vicinity.


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## muse

> the day response by bigots will decide country's policy, I'd shut down my system, say goodbye to civilization and join Maoists or whatever near vicinity.



Steady on - there's no shortage of bigots of any number of stripes.


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## Tuahaa

The church burning didn't have to do with the whole protest yaar...

Was watching Al Jazeera... the news said something along the lines of '13 killed during a large protest in Kashmir- amongst the protest, a church was burned down as emotions also ran high due to the Qur'an Burning'

The deaths were normal India-shoots-protesters deaths, and had nothing to do with the church attack.


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## LaBong

Tuahaa said:


> The church burning didn't have to do with the whole protest yaar...
> 
> Was watching Al Jazeera... the news said something along the lines of '13 killed during a large protest in Kashmir- amongst the protest, a church was burned down as emotions also ran high due to the Qur'an Burning'
> 
> The deaths were normal India-shoots-protesters deaths, and had nothing to do with the church attack.



But yesterday also saw a bigger protest where many public properties were burned, flag of another country was hosted. Although provocation was there, nobody was killed as force maintained utmost restrain. Today emotions were trading on a wrong path altogether.

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## Tuahaa

Kashmiris were angrier today, it seems. Indian military forces raised a curfew and told everyone 'to stay in their houses'. Seems that this worked them up a bit more.

They are also angry at U.S.A but that was for a different reason.


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## nForce

SnIPeR Xr said:


> Lol i was just kidding & you jumped into no matter what conclusions
> Sorry if my humor has increased the fire inside you .
> Well I know each & every thing about Economy & Finance.But according to you we are very poor & our economic condition is very bad But here in in Azad Kashmir employment is not an issue.But according to you indian economy is very good But still employment is an issue in Indian occupied kashmir.
> 
> Isn't it strange
> 
> I didn't got any thing from your employment point.
> But now i have drawn three conclusions.You have to select one option because this is the only way to remove confusion from your employment point(& this time its not funny).
> 
> 
> Here are the three options:
> 1.India is so poor that it cannot give employment to kashmiris.Because its been 60 years & employment is an issue in IOK.
> 
> 2.Accept that employment is not an issue in kashmir,But IDEOLOGY is an issue.(by accepting that option you will prove that india is very rich)
> 
> 3.Third & last option is accept that you dont want to give employment to kashmiris because you consider those kashmiris LOW LIFE & LOW CAST people just as you consider Dalits & Shoder Low life & low cast
> 
> These are the 3 conclusions that anyone can draw from your employment point.
> Now by accepting one of them you will remove the confusion & then we will proceed the debate.



There is a basic difference between the way you and I think.While you let assumptions do the talking,I talk in terms of facts and figures....
Well,here goes some facts and figures for you.....
Unemployment rate in a third World yet second fastest developing country like India is 10.70 %.Now it is lower in developed states like Gujarat and TamilNadu,but significantly higher in lesser developed states like Jammu & Kashmir.*It is not like that unemployment is evenly distributed.*
By the way do you have any idea what is the unemployment rate of a developed country like USA???It is 9.40 % .That will give you a comparative idea....And do you know where you people stand???*Unemployment rate in Pakistan is as high as 15.20 %*,*that saw a whopping increase of 105.41 % over the last year.....*

Your case is a perfect example of "*Pot calling kettle black.*"


You dont have an iota of idea about Economics else you would have been aware of these elementary facts,even if you say otherwise,which I take to be point blank lying or an excellent show of complete ignorance......

It is quite natural to have grievances in mind if one has an empty stomach or lesser means to support his livelihood.Similar situation can be seen in a much much more magnified manner in the northern areas of Pakistan or almost whole of Pakistan where most of the taliban suicide bombers and mercenaries are actually unemployed and brainwashed youth.

Most of the unemployment issue in Kashmir can be traced back to the militancy issues which ruined the tourism based industries back in the 90s and early half of this decade.While the militancy issue has been well taken care of by the Indian army,it takes time to rebuild an economy,specially if it is based mainly on tourism and horticulture.





> And about your failed nation point.
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/63980-60-most-failed-countries-world-postcards-hell.html
> 
> This is your thread on PDF about failed nations and in this thread many indian members including you didn't agree with Pakistan being in top 10 failed nations
> & now you are saying something else.
> 
> Watch Out you are turning away from your stance




Exactly point me out the post where I show my disagreement....

As I have said before,I think that the naming convention is not entirely right.The list provides us with data of categorization of countries based on certain parameters.The country with a higher propensity of not fulfilling the parameters goes up in the list.The simple presence of name of any country does not mean that it is actually a failed state.

*That means if England is at #161 then it is not necessarily a failed state,but the country which features among top 10 has failed significantly on social,economical and political grounds.*

You should be more concerned with yourself.With a nation in the state of a civil war,external debt more than 3 times of forex reserve and rampant corruption in between,I dont really see much to rejoice about.............


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## LaBong

Tuahaa said:


> Kashmiris were angrier today, it seems. Indian military forces raised a curfew and told everyone 'to stay in their houses'. Seems that this worked them up a bit more.
> 
> They are also angry at U.S.A but that was for a different reason.



Whatever might be reason of their anger, they vented their anger on a wrong place, in a wring, bigoted way. Sorry no sympathy this time. Burning church because some loony burning book in other part of world is fanatic thing to do, that too of stupid kinds.


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## Tuahaa

Abir said:


> Whatever might be reason of their anger, they vented their anger on a wrong place, in a wring, bigoted way. Sorry no sympathy this time. Burning church because some loony burning book in other part of world is fanatic thing to do, that too of stupid kinds.



Of course. It is quite a stupid thing.

Uneducated people (no offense meant- it happens in both Indian and Pakistan) take issues into their own hands in a way that it achieves nothing. For example, Islam does not allow burning down churches because of some 'fanatic from the other part of the world' but that does not mean some Muslims will not do it (hence, in my opinion, why we Muslims were more successful in the past than now). 

However, leaving that aside, these bullets were fired from the guns of Indian troops were meant to control the crowd (albeit a very cruel and inhumane way to do so), not to 'take revenge' for the church burnings. 

I also don't agree that the protesters that burnt the church deserve to die- just like Qur'an burnings are 'a freedom of speech', shouldn't the church burning be 'free speech' as a retaliation? Not that it's right, of course


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## Abu Zolfiqar

RollingStones said:


> Dont bother. You cannot win over us in the west with the fanatical Islamic version. We like to deal with only moderate Islamic parties and Islamic intellectuals. I saw videos of Kashmir protests and they look right out of some fanatical Islamic country with uneducated, rag tag people hurling stones. No one will support a movement like that, just to let you know.



hey numbnuts,

I wasnt asking for the commenters to ''take sides''

I dont think the views on a Yahoo forum matter. But what is important is to clear misconceptions and expose factually incorrect, hypocritical statements (many of which, unfortunately, seem to be coming from your fellow countrymen)

Nobody was interested in your little rants and diatribes on this forum, take my post or leave it.

Incidentally, i aimed it more for PAKISTANIS --as it seems there are misconceptions and stereotypes against them which need to be corrected. Again, learn to comprehend what you read first.

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## justanobserver

Tuahaa said:


> just like Qur'an burnings are 'a freedom of speech', shouldn't the *church burning* be 'free speech' as a retaliation? Not that it's right, of course



Are you insane ??

How the f&ck is church burning free speech!! (speech?!!)

What you're talking about is anarchy! 

Hell let's burn buildings, kill people, **** women all in the name of free "speech"


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## astodome

14 kashmiris killed...i hope there will not be 20 kashmiri's killed day after tomorrow..


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## Abu Zolfiqar

justanobserver said:


> Are you insane ??
> 
> How the f&ck is church burning free speech!! (speech?!!)
> 
> What you're talking about is anarchy!
> 
> Hell let's burn buildings, kill people, **** women all in the name of free "speech"



so how is Quran burning freedom of speech?

you should listen to yourself sometime, ''observer''


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## alibaz

*Police firing kills 13 protesters in Indian Occupied Kashmir*
At least 13 protesters have been killed in clashes with police troops in Indian Occupied Kashmir that have been partly fueled by a report of a Quran being desecrated in the United States.
The death toll Monday was the highest since separatist protests broke out in June against Indian rule in the disputed region.
Tens of thousands of violent anti-Indian demonstrators ignored a curfew and flooded the streets, burning government buildings and throwing rocks at police stations.
A police officer said security forces shot at some of the crowds, killing 13 people and wounding dozens more. The officer spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak with media.

Dunya TV - Pakistan | Police firing kills 13 protesters in Indian Occupied Kashmir


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## muse

Meanwhile, in the US and India's Afghanistan:

September 12, 2010
2 Afghans Die in Protest Over Koran Burning
By ALISSA J. RUBIN

KABUL, Afghanistan  Two Afghans died in a remote area of eastern Afghanistan on Sunday w*hen the police fired into a crowd protesting the planned burning of the Koran in Florida, a day after the burning had been called off. *

The deaths bring to three the number of Afghans killed in demonstrations tied to the threat made by Terry Jones, a Florida pastor, to burn the Koran on the anniversary of the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11. 

Mr. Jones relented under intense pressure from the Obama administration and others, but not before tapping a deep well of anger among Afghans. It was likely that many of those protesting on Sunday* in Baraki-e-Barak, a district in western Logar Province, had not heard the news. Mass media is scant in the region.* 

As of Sunday night there had been no reports on local television about a couple of Koran burnings that did take place on Sunday in Tennessee. 

The crowd chanted anti-American slogans, including *death to Americans*, *death to Obama*, and *death to Jews.* 

But its violence was directed at the Afghan government, which is seen as beholden to the United States. A_ group of protesters engaged with police at around noon and started to throw rocks and bricks at police, wounding some policemen_," said Din Mohammad Darwish, spokesman for the governor of Logar Province. 

The previous day, the demonstrators burned a police checkpoint, he said. On Sunday, *the police fired to stop the crowd from advancing on the district center and burning it, said Mr. Darwish. The shots wounded six people, two of them critically, and they died while being taken for medical treatment*. 

The planned Koran burning touched a raw nerve in a region deeply proud of its Muslim faith. 

_Afghans fought for 30 years against Communism and during mujahedeen time and Afghans are ready to die for their religion and customs and traditions,_ *said Maulavi Qalamuddin, a former Taliban from Baraki-e-Barak, who spent nearly seven years in detention at Bagram Airbase.* _Whenever someone does something against their values and religion they are quick to anger._ 

He said that the protest reflected a broadly popular frustration with the government because the demonstrators included shopkeepers, teachers and taxi drivers who have to deal with the government every day, and not people from remote areas of the district. 

Muhammad Alam, a high school teacher in the provincial capital, agreed that there was serious disillusionment with the government, although he suspected that the Taliban had also stoked emotions on Sunday. 

*In Logar, there is a mixture of Taliban motivating people to do this demonstration and people not being happy with the current administration*, he said. T*his regime is based on bribery. You cannot do anything unless you pay a bribe to the government. People are jobless. People are fed up with the current government.* 

When the Americans or other foreigners pay for projects, the money is whittled away by corrupt officials, he said. *Needy people cannot get anything at all, so that is why people are resorting to demonstrations to show their anger in any way possible*. 

Also on Sunday, NATO officials conceded that civilians may have been killed in a Sept. 2 strike aimed at a man believed to be the Taliban deputy shadow governor of Takhar Province in northern Afghanistan. A NATO statement said that an investigation confirmed that the man, who was associated with the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, had been killed, but could not rule out the possibility that civilians were also killed. 

President Hamid Karzai, citing reports from local officials, said at the time that the airstrikes killed at least 10 civilians and wounded 3, including a parliamentary candidate who was in the convoy with several campaign workers. The candidate, Abdul Wahid Khurasani, said that the convoy of six vehicles struck by two NATO rockets was part of his campaign team and that the vehicles were draped with campaign posters. 

NATO officials disputed that description on Sunday. The NATO statement said there were no campaign signs on the vehicles. They said only one vehicle was struck. 

We are very confident that the targeted individual was in the vehicle struck by the air weapons team and was killed, said Italian Army Brig. Gen. Luigi Scollo of the Italian Army, the Joint Command operations chief for the NATO forces. *The question remains why an election official or candidate was traveling with a known terrorist*. 


Sangar Rahimi contributed reporting.


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## justanobserver

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> so how is Quran burning freedom of speech?
> 
> you should listen to yourself sometime, ''observer''



Did I ever support Quran burning ?

But justifying destruction of property (in the name of free "speech"), because some moron 1000s of miles away wanted to burn a Holy book, is plain dumb.


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## alibaz

*Indian police shot dead 13 protestors, Manmohan calls APC* 

OCCUPIED SRINAGAR: Indian police shot dead 13 people in held Kashmir on Monday as stone-throwing rioters defied curfews and torched a Christian school in a surge of anger stoked by the desecration of the Holy Quran.

The death toll was the highest for a single day since a wave of anti-India demonstrations began three months ago, with 84 civilians now killed in unrest in the disputed Muslim-majority region. One policeman also died Monday.

In New Delhi, the cabinet met to discuss steps to defuse the tension, but decided against heeding calls from some in the government to partially lift a 20-year-old emergency law that is despised by many in Kashmir.

The cabinet said it was "deeply distressed" by the unrest, but offered no new initiatives besides an all-party meeting for later in the week to discuss solutions.

Some of Monday's worst rioting was reported in Tangmarg village, 40 kilometres (25 miles) from the region's main town of Srinagar, where a crowd chanted anti-US and pro-Islam slogans before burning down a missionary school.

No one was injured in the fire at Tyndale Biscoe School, but at least five civilians were killed when security forces opened fire on the crowd as it attempted to set fire to government buildings, local police said.

"The loss of property has been huge," police official Kuldeep Khoda told reporters in Srinagar, detailing the day's unrest which saw at least one mob attack a camp of heavily armed paramilitary forces.

He confirmed that 13 civilians had been killed and one policeman had also died. He said 45 protesters and 130 policemen had been injured, while 52 people were arrested.

"We are taking necessary measures to prevent loss of life and property all over the Kashmir valley," he added.

The US ambassador to India, Timothy J. Roemer, said he was "dismayed" to 
see the reports of violence and repeated President Barack Obama's condemnation of the Quran-ripping.

Kashmiri leader Syed Ali Geelani, who has orchestrated recent anti-India demonstrations, also called for calm and for Christians to be protected.

"I urge the Muslims to protect the members of minority community and their 
religious places. We should at any cost maintain the age-old communal harmony and brotherhood for which Kashmir is known the world over," he said.

"The youth of Kashmir are our citizens and their grievances have to be addressed," Prime Minister Manmohan Singh told military commanders in New Delhi.

"We are willing to talk to every person or group which abjures violence, within the framework of our constitution."

He later held talks with senior ministers on whether to lift the Armed Forces Special Powers Act in four districts of the region, but decided against taking any action.

The act was passed in 1958 and extended to Kashmir in 1990.

Human rights groups and local politicians have long campaigned against it, saying the law encourages abuses by Indian forces.

It gives Indian army and paramilitary troops sweeping powers to open fire, search houses, detain suspects and confiscate property, as well as protecting soldiers from prosecution.

Under-fire Kashmir chief minister Omar Abdullah has urged the federal government to withdraw the act, but has met with strong resistance from the Indian military.

Indian police shot dead 13 protestors, Manmohan calls APC - GEO.tv


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## Abu Zolfiqar

KSRaj said:


> Why dont we have a "YAWN" emoticon/smiley?
> Its really needed!



If you're so sleepy, I suggest you simply log-off for as long as you like and go back to your chaarpai


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## S_O_C_O_M

* In pictures: Kashmir protests​*
13 September 2010 Last updated at 13:10 ET






At least 18 people have been killed and more than 100 wounded after police opened fire on separatist protesters in Indian-administered Kashmir.





Anti-India street protests that have been taking place across the disputed territory since June escalated amid reports that a Koran had been desecrated in the US over the weekend. 





Crowds burned at least four government buildings. A policeman was also killed after being hit by a lorry driven by demonstrators. 





As funerals for the victims were held, the Indian cabinet called an all-party meeting for Wednesday to discuss the violence. However, it put off a decision on whether to lift controversial security laws. 

BBC News - In pictures: Kashmir protests

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## InPhilTraitor

funny they are also protesting Obama and USA.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

justanobserver said:


> Did I ever support Quran burning ?
> 
> But justifying destruction of property (in the name of free "speech"), because some moron 1000s of miles away wanted to burn a Holy book, is plain dumb.



I don't know what you supported or what your views are since I do not know you; nor do I really care to.

We can both agree that 2 wrongs don't make a right. I personally am very against occupied Kashmiris burning a Church down. It wont be good for their cause, it would be counter-productive.

but to think that some people here and there in Kashmir (or anywhere in the world for that matter) wont be OFFENDED by such actions is ludicrous. Some people vent their anger in unproductive ways.


as far as this topic is concerned, it is imperative that Kashmiris stick to the mission --resisting the illegal occupation, and also high-lighting it (to the world) as well. I would discourage them from Church burning. 

in all honesty, i think the Church burning hysteria (if thats what it is) is being taken out of proportion; same as the Quran ordeal. The main issue here is to highlight hindustans actions in Kashmir, and there should be no deviation from the mission --regardless of how the media portrays and ''packages'' the story

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## muse

Terrorists, eh?


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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> yet refuse that right to the people of Kashmir, as promised them in the UN.


Whatever makes you feel happy.


> Snide comments don't change the fact that the majority of the world sees J&k as disputed territory. Lets not forget that it is only on google.in that the delusional map of Kashmir is displayed, and reality shown to the rest of the world.
> 
> No, the people of Kashmir were in fact up in rebellion against the disctator Mahrajah and his atrocities and discrimination against the local Muslim population, and it was the dictator that invited India into Kashmir, not the people of Kashmir.


here read this:

_*Before and after the withdrawal of the British from India in 1947, the princely state of Kashmir and Jammu came under pressure from both India and Pakistan to agree to become part of one of the newly independent countries. According to the instruments of accession relating to the Partition of India, the rulers of princely states were to be given the choice of either acceding to India or Pakistan, or remaining independent. The Maharaja of Kashmir, Hari Singh chose the latter and tried to avoid accession to either country. When British forces ceded responsibility for security to the two dominions, Muslim troops rebelled in the some state force units and alongwith Pashtun tribals from the North West Frontier Province (NWFP), invaded the state, thereby triggering the war.
Fearing that his forces would be unable to withstand the assault, the Maharaja asked for Indian military assistance. India set a condition that Kashmir must accede to India for it to receive assistance. Whereupon the Government of India recognized the accession of the erstwhile princely state to India, and was considered the new Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir, Indian troops were sent to the state to defend it against the Pakistani forces. The legitimacy of this accession is still disputed.
Pakistan was of the view that the Maharaja of Kashmir had no right to call in the Indian Army, because it held that the Maharaja of Kashmir was not a heredity ruler, that he was merely a British appointee.[citation needed] There had been no such position as the "Maharaja of Kashmir" prior to British rule. Hence Pakistan decided to take action,*_

What was Pakistan's justification for intervention? None whatsoever, just a trouble maker and that set the ball rolling for all the troubles that Pakistan faces today.



> And again, you cannot argue for the legitimacy of accession when India herself ignored accession in the case of Junagadh and Hyderabad.


You dont get it, do ya? It very simple, I have said it earlier and will say it again.
Post independence, it was mad rush for land grab to consolidate borders by both countries. India played her cards very nicely and came up tops. Simple. Could have been better with Kashmir, if Nehru had played those cards skillfully but got misguided just like he got misguided with China. 
As for Junagadh, Pakistan did not have her forces in those territories, so could not "defend". Added to that is the hesitancy shown by your leaders (probably because of the Hindu majority population) to accept accession, which gave Indian authorities a reason to act, and act they did. Rest is History!


> That is the definition of colonization and the eradication of a distinct community, Kashmiris.


You couldnt be more wrong. Eradication, you say? Where? 
On the contrary, India has gone to extreme pains to preserve the Kashmiri culture and its people by giving them unprecedented sops - unavailable to common Indians. And you talk about eradication? Seriously, that deserves a LOL.
What China did to Tibetans can be considered as what you put forth. Guess India has to do a Tibet in Kashmir. Then all the flak that India faces will be justified. I say, India should do a Tibet in Kashmir.


> Ahh, so when did Pakistan make a decision to hold a plebiscite in Junagadh?


Where did I say Pakistan decided to hold a plebiscite in Junagadh? 


> Not at all. Jinnah's speech addressing all religious groups in Pakistan after Pakistan's independence clearly explains that. And you have not provided any legal justification against the accession of Junagadh to Pakistan. *Quite frankly, Pakistan's ideology is none of your business in the context of accessions*.


Jinnah's speech, though revered, can be considered a farce. The whole reason for Pakistan's creation as Junnah put it, was that Muslims and Hindus of the subcontinent cannot co-exist in peace! How wrong he was! And then after the creation of Pakistan, he makes this speech! What do you make of it?

"*Quite frankly, Pakistan's ideology is none of your business in the context of accessions*."
Whoa! didnt see THAT coming. That was NOT expected from you. Anyway, why is Pakistan's ideology none of my business, when we are arguing about justifications? 



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Pakistan accepted Junagadh's accession, the instrument of accession was delivered to Pakistan, and the communication between India and Pakistan clearly explain Pakistan's position on the issue. *Hyderabad never actually acceded to either country before it was invaded by India.*
> 
> The logistical issues of running Junagadh were Pakistan's problem to deal with, not yours. Pakistan did after all have two wings separated by an even larger expanse of Indian territory than Junagadh.
> 
> Again, there is no legal or 'moral' case you have against the accession of Junagadh to Pakistan.


Atleast in India's defense, India did not show hypocrisy in calling for a plebiscite in those areas. It was plain - joins us, you dont have a choice. Period.
Similar was the case for Kashmir. India intervened only AFTER accession was signed. However, Pakistan intervened on a flimsy pretext of "helping" people against supposed "atrocities" (which was in fact rebellion by some soldiers who wanted to join Pakistan for being a Muslim state), and created this mess.

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## JanjaWeed

* Re: India has lost Kashmir 
*

i thought we lost it long time ago.. & it's called azad kashmir now!!


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## gubbi

Tuahaa said:


> I also don't agree that the protesters that burnt the church deserve to die- just like Qur'an burnings are 'a freedom of speech', shouldn't the church burning be 'free speech' as a retaliation? Not that it's right, of course



Burning any book can be/is considered as Freedom of Speech - atleast in US. Burning a building anywhere - is considered as Arson - a punishable offence. Cannot club two together.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

death toll rises to 18, as the sissy forces continue their crackdown against protestors


APHC chief released a well-timed statement

_"I urge the Muslims to protect members of [the] minority community and their religious places. We should at any cost maintain the age-old communal harmony and brotherhood for which Kashmir is known the world over," he said._



BBC News - Police shoot dead 18 during protests in Kashmir


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## Tuahaa

So basically, you are saying that a Hindu prince was right to ask India to take over the whole country?

Kashmir is a Muslim majority, and as far as I know, the terms of the creation of Pakistan was that areas of a Muslim majority will be given to the newly created country of Pakistan.

Tell me that the Pakistani troops did not have a right to 'invade' Kashmir? And now, because of the Hindu prince that 'invited' India to take over, what do you get? Mass protests. You're being quite one sided in your approach so I will say it straight: *The people of Kashmir do not want to be a part of India, period.*


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## alibaz

Reports suggest that stone-throwing rioters defied curfews and torched a Christian school (Tyndale Biscoe School) in a surge of anger stoked by the desecration of the Holy Quran. Regardless, it was just a school or Church, it was in the heat of emotions or planned, can not be supported. Kashmiris should stick to their cause and such act won't help them. We support for their just cause but condemn this act of arson as we condemned Israeli attack, desecration of the Holy Quran or the Caricature issue. All such acts cannot be supported for any reason.

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## Tuahaa

alibaz said:


> Reports suggest that stone-throwing rioters defied curfews and torched a Christian school (Tyndale Biscoe School) in a surge of anger stoked by the desecration of the Holy Quran. Regardless it was just a school or Church it was in the heat of emotions or planned, it can not be supported. Kashmiris should stick to their cause and such act won't help them. We condemn this act of arson as we condemned Israeli attack, desecration of the Holy Qurandesecration of the Holy Quran or the Caricature issue. All such acts cannot be supported for any reason.



That was what I was saying... our Indian 'friends' should stick to the topic...


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## Tuahaa

I think if Kashmir does break off, it would be better off as an individual country (and obviously as an ally to Pakistan- but then it would be hard to turn it into a battlefield). I wonder how it'll work out. Doesn't seem staying with India is an option to the people of kashmir


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## alibaz

This also can't be supported


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## Tuahaa

RollingStones said:


> Dont bother. You cannot win over us in the west with the fanatical Islamic version. We like to deal with only moderate Islamic parties and Islamic intellectuals. I saw videos of Kashmir protests and they look right out of some fanatical Islamic country with uneducated, rag tag people hurling stones. No one will support a movement like that, just to let you know.



In your opinion, 'moderate muslims' should stay silent like they are right now if they are being abused, killed, stereotyped and targeted by the media? The people of Kashmir want freedom- you think they'll get it by asking?

"India, can we break up from you as you have no right over us? Please? Apparently democracy works that way. We will not argue or make any noise if you say no- or else we're being 'terrorists' from 'some fanatical Islamic country'. No way. That will make us look like 'uneducated, rag tag people hurling stones! Nobody will support a movement like that'"

Sad bro. Just sad.


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## Tuahaa

alibaz said:


> This also can't be supported



Why would India give a damn about what can or cannot be supported (i.e. killing civilians) if it clashes with their interests?


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## Gazzi

If India believes that this Israeli style attitude of shooting dead protesters for throwing stones is justified then they need to ask a few simple questions.........

1.) Does India, or its establishments behave in a similar fashion elsewhere in India where protests erupt, if not, why not..........

2.) Is India any position to complain, when freedom fighters or terrorists, whatever suits your choice, decide that if India finds it acceptable to kill stone throwers by using brute force, then they too feel totally justified to kill and murder Indians also inside India by using either bombs or suicide tactics. If India can justify there actions, then they should not moan when these people go to target India itself. Whether civilians die or not doesn;t make any difference, as Indian soldiers/police too have killed Kashmiri civilians..........

Nice example to set by the worlds biggest democracy.............


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## lalluyadav

Gazzi said:


> If India believes that this Israeli style attitude of shooting dead protesters for throwing stones is justified then they need to ask a few simple questions.........
> 
> 1.) Does India, or its establishments behave in a similar fashion elsewhere in India where protests erupt, if not, why not..........
> 
> 2.) Is India any position to complain, when freedom fighters or terrorists, whatever suits your choice, decide that if India finds it acceptable to kill stone throwers by using brute force, then they too feel totally justified to kill and murder Indians also inside India by using either bombs or suicide tactics. If India can justify there actions, then they should not moan when these people go to target India itself. Whether civilians die or not doesn;t make any difference, as Indian soldiers/police too have killed Kashmiri civilians..........
> 
> Nice example to set by the worlds biggest democracy.............






> Does India, or its establishments behave in a similar fashion elsewhere in India where protests erupt, if not, why not......



the same thing happened in north east of india,those morons used to hide in bhutan and bangladesh.but bhutan took action and same was done by the bangladesh govt which is pro india.we killed many terrorists there who did bomb blast etc there.there is same armed forces act there which is in kashmir.




> Is India any position to complain, when freedom fighters or terrorists, whatever suits your choice, decide that if India finds it acceptable to kill stone throwers by using brute force, then they too feel totally justified to kill and murder Indians also inside India by using either bombs or suicide tactics. If India can justify there actions, then they should not moan when these people go to target India itself. Whether civilians die or not doesn;t make any difference, as Indian soldiers/police too have killed Kashmiri civilians..........
> 
> Nice example to set by the worlds biggest democracy...



whether you accept or not,the problem is more political.the other parties which are not in govt also wants to drink money which party in govt enjoys.i accept there are separatist group but first problem is also responsible.terrorist and kashmiri civilians are not same.*when any terrorist come n **** n kill those civilians then these separatist dont speak*.they know they can be next target.go n google the terrorist pics in the kashmir which were killed.childrens are killed under fire ,who told their parents to let them come n join the protest.separatist uses them so that to provoke the incident.

the main point is integrity of the country ,those who disturbs this are against the nation.they dont deserve any political benifits rather than bullet


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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I don't know what you supported or what your views are since I do not know you; nor do I really care to.
> 
> We can both agree that 2 wrongs don't make a right. I personally am very against occupied Kashmiris burning a Church down. It wont be good for their cause, it would be counter-productive.



Buring is church and burning a Quran is not the same thing from a legal stand point in a secular country


While I totally oppose the burning of Quran in the US, its not legally a crime (as long as it is the property of the one burning it)

Buring a church or any building so to say, is legally a crime.

Hence the difference..


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## foxbat

Gazzi said:


> If India believes that this Israeli style attitude of shooting dead protesters for throwing stones is justified then they need to ask a few simple questions.........
> 
> 1.) Does India, or its establishments behave in a similar fashion elsewhere in India where protests erupt, if not, why not..........
> 
> 2.) Is India any position to complain, when freedom fighters or terrorists, whatever suits your choice, decide that if India finds it acceptable to kill stone throwers by using brute force, then they too feel totally justified to kill and murder Indians also inside India by using either bombs or suicide tactics. If India can justify there actions, then they should not moan when these people go to target India itself. Whether civilians die or not doesn;t make any difference, as Indian soldiers/police too have killed Kashmiri civilians..........
> 
> Nice example to set by the worlds biggest democracy.............



Would you apply the same lense when a TTP terrorist blows up a bus full of people in peshawar or Quetta. After all, PA is also targetting TTP cadres in a KP areas and a lot of civilians are also getting killed as collatoral damage and they are not even throwing rocks. They get killed just because they are in proximity of a suspected militant camp and a bomb from F 16 can not distinguish between the two.

So apart from the oft repeated mantra of Disputed area, the 2 situations are not too different. If you justify a mumbai, then you are in same vain, justifying a Lahore, Quetta or Peshawar.. Aren't you?

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## StingRoy

alibaz said:


> Reports suggest that stone-throwing rioters defied curfews and torched a Christian school (Tyndale Biscoe School) ... Kashmiris should stick to their cause and such act won't help them. We support for their just cause but condemn this act of arson as we condemned Israeli attack, desecration of the Holy Quran or the Caricature issue. All such acts cannot be supported for any reason.



Well thats what you call a typical "Mob Mentality"... when in a mob, actions by a few individuals are usually followed by the whole crowd... without even spending some time to think about their actions... I think few individuals with political aspirations are trying to maximize the impact of the unrest by convoluting the reasons behind their protests...


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## astodome

Protest against US not on INDIA


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## alibaz

foxbat said:


> Would you apply the same lense when a TTP terrorist blows up a bus full of people in peshawar or Quetta. After all, PA is also targetting TTP cadres in a KP areas and a lot of civilians are also getting killed as collatoral damage and they are not even throwing rocks. They get killed just because they are in proximity of a suspected militant camp and a bomb from F 16 can not distinguish between the two.
> 
> So apart from the oft repeated mantra of Disputed area, the 2 situations are not too different. If you justify a mumbai, then you are in same vain, justifying a Lahore, Quetta or Peshawar.. Aren't you?


 

Kashmiri Freedom fighters have legitimate right of self determination and that has been recognized by UN . You may term those resolutions as mantras, but it remains a fact. Basing on those resolutions they have some demands. But who are TPP and what are their demands, what is basis of their terrorist act. Moreover they are recognized as terrorist all over the world even by Indian government but few Indian members of this forum have different opinion.

You say if we justify Mumbai, how can we justify Mumbai once we have passed through that pain number of times. No act can be justified where unarmed , untrained and peaceful citizens are put into such situations may it be anywhere in the world.


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## BATMAN

Describe colour of terrorism in Kashmir valley: Narendra Modi to Chidambaram

AHMEDABAD: Taking a swipe at Union Home Minister P Chidambaram for his 'saffron terror' comment, *Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi today asked him to describe the "colour of terrorism in the Kashmir valley". *

"Now, even terrorism has different colours, as per our Home Minister Chidambaram," Modi said while addressing a seminar organised by the BJP Youth Wing here. 

"I would like to ask him what would be the colour of terrorism faced by the people of Kashmir. What would be colour of violence faced by thousands of Kashmiri pandits," Modi asked. 

While addressing a function of state police chiefs in Delhi last month, Chidambaram had said a new phenomenon of "*saffron terrorism" involved in many bomb blasts had been uncovered*. 

Modi further asked what was the Congress government doing when the Kashmiri Pandits in the Valley were left helpless due to the violence against them. "Do you (UPA) have any answer to this," he added. 

"The Congress is leading the country towards disaster with its vote bank politics and policy on terrorism," Modi said, adding those who try to malign the image of progressive Gujarat will get a befitting reply from its people. 

The chief minister also talked about his government's efforts for development of the state and how it has been successful in maintaining peace in Gujarat over the last decade.


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## Donatello

15 killed in disputed Kashmir in deadly protests - Yahoo! News

Read this.


I know Kashmiris have been left in blood a number of times, but 68,000!!!!

OMG!


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## Malik Usman

InPhilTraitor said:


> funny they are also protesting Obama and USA.




Not funny,,,,,they are protesting because Obama got Nobel Prize in Peace.........What is peace........he must had given noble prize for destorying the peace of world.... Just look Kashmir and Phlastine.
Obama got Nobel Prize becasue he speaks about peace rather acting upon it...................and next president you will see get nobel prize because he will saw a dream of peace in world.


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## foxbat

alibaz said:


> Kashmiri Freedom fighters have legitimate right of self determination and that has been recognized by UN . You may term those resolutions as mantras, but it remains a fact. Basing on those resolutions they have some demands. But who are TPP and what are their demands, what is basis of their terrorist act. Moreover they are recognized as terrorist all over the world even by Indian government but few Indian members of this forum have different opinion.
> 
> You say if we justify Mumbai, how can we justify Mumbai once we have passed through that pain number of times. No act can be justified where unarmed , untrained and peaceful citizens are put into such situations may it be anywhere in the world.



Let me draw it out for you...

1. Kashmir Resolution does not give a right to LeT to do a Mumbai 26/11
2. People who caused 26/11 are also termed as Terrorists by the whole world like TTP and even by Pakistani govt, but few Pakistani members of this forum have different opinion.

My post was in response to Gazzi's post who did sound like as if he felt Mumbai was acceptable


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## Abu Zolfiqar

karan.1970 said:


> Buring is church and burning a Quran is not the same thing from a legal stand point in a secular country
> 
> 
> While I totally oppose the burning of Quran in the US, its not legally a crime (as long as it is the property of the one burning it)
> 
> Buring a church or any building so to say, is legally a crime.
> 
> Hence the difference..



you miserably fail to convince.....

and you are forgetting to look at the broader picture


back on point, anti-indian sentiment in the valley is at an all time high. hindustan will sooner or later realize that status quo is un-sustainable. 

the ground realities simply wont be on their side in the long run; what is important is that Pakistan continues its moral support to Kashmiris under occupation.

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## matti

*14 killed in Kashmir as Indian forces, protesters battle*

Demonstrators set fire to government buildings and a school *as anger over Indian rule of the region boils over.* Erroneous reports that a Florida pastor burned the Koran add to the uproar.
Reporting from New Delhi &#8212; 

At least 14 people were reportedly killed Monday and dozens injured in clashes with security forces in an Indian-controlled portion of Kashmir, police said, as protesters set fire to several government buildings and a private school.

The demonstrations were sparked in part by an inaccurate report that a Florida pastor had made good on his threat to burn the Koran on Saturday. *But the major cause was long-standing discontent over Indian rule of the contested region and the use of lethal force by police and paramilitary units against stone-throwing protesters in previous clashes.*


"Kashmir was a volcano that was dormant since 1947," said Javed Ahmad Dar, 25, a literature student. "Now it has exploded."

The day's violence, the worst since separatist demonstrations erupted in June, brings the *death toll to at least 80 in the last three months*.

Security forces say the protests are sparked or influenced by militants, justifying the use of lethal force in response.

Monday's unrest came as an Indian Cabinet committee held an inconclusive three-hour meeting in New Delhi to consider a political package for the volatile region and a partial rollback of India's controversial *Armed Forces Special Powers Act. That law gives the army near-blanket immunity against prosecution for actions it takes in the troubled region. Security forces oppose curtailment of their power.*
Even if an agreement is reached, it is unlikely to ease anger in the Kashmir Valley, some said.

"The armed forces act is not the root cause," said Mohammad Ashraf Wani, a professor at Kashmir University. "Until the root cause is addressed, the underlying political problem, I don't see an end to the unrest."

Local television video showed hundreds of young men defying a curfew, many brandishing sticks and stones as they razed a tin-sheeted structure.

Demonstrators also set fire to a development office, local news media reported, as well as a court building, an official's vehicle and residence, a social welfare office and two tourism kiosks. They also reportedly attacked a police station, at which point security forces fired on the crowd, injuring more than a dozen people.

The state government banned an international news channel, Press TV, after it aired video of a man damaging a Koran in Tennessee, an incident distinct from Florida preacher Terry Jones' canceled threat to burn the Koran on Saturday.

In New Delhi, U.S. Ambassador Timothy J. Roemer expressed dismay over the violence in Kashmir after reports of "a misguided individual desecrating the Koran."

Aasif Sultan, 23, a protester, said rolling back the armed forces act in quieter areas of Kashmir would be a useful start. A bigger problem, he added, was that India and Pakistan all too often argue over Kashmir without listening to the concerns of those actually living there.

*"If India says it is a democracy, then why not let us protest?" Sultan said. "When they stop us, we throw stones, and then they fire at us."*
Wasim Khalid, a reporter for the Rising Kashmir newspaper, said journalists were unable to do their job Monday after the government imposed an embargo on local reporting. *"The curfew is so strict, even ambulances can't go," he said. "There is so much anger."*
In Kashmir's Baramulla district, traditionally one of the area's more volatile, protesters reportedly set fire to a private school run by a Christian group, apparently in anger over the Koran-burning rumors.

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## alibaz

foxbat said:


> Let me draw it out for you...
> 
> 1. Kashmir Resolution does not give a right to LeT to do a Mumbai 26/11
> 2. People who caused 26/11 are also termed as Terrorists by the whole world like TTP and even by Pakistani govt, but few Pakistani members of this forum have different opinion.
> 
> My post was in response to Gazzi's post who did sound like as if he felt Mumbai was acceptable



Please refer to second para of my quoted post it addresses your point 1 and 2

If it is to respond Gazzi then you may quote his post. Thanks buddy


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## Abu Zolfiqar

matti said:


> *
> "If India says it is a democracy, then why not let us protest?" Sultan said. "When they stop us, we throw stones, and then they fire at us."
> Wasim Khalid, a reporter for the Rising Kashmir newspaper, said journalists were unable to do their job Monday after the government imposed an embargo on local reporting. "The curfew is so strict, even ambulances can't go," he said. "There is so much anger."*


*

it is disgusting that our ''leaders'' remain silent on issues like these....

then again, no new phenomenon with regards to these sissies (the occupational forces)*

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## foxbat

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> you miserably fail to convince.....
> 
> and you are forgetting to look at the broader picture
> 
> 
> back on point, anti-indian sentiment in the valley is at an all time high. hindustan will sooner or later realize that status quo is un-sustainable.
> 
> the ground realities simply wont be on their side in the long run; what is important is that Pakistan continues its moral support to Kashmiris under occupation.



I think both of you are talking about different things. The point Karan was making was on you comparing burning of Quran to Burning of a church as both freedom of expression


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## foxbat

alibaz said:


> Please refer to second para of my quoted post it addresses your point 1 and 2
> 
> If it is to respond Gazzi then you may quote his post. Thanks buddy



If you look at my original post to which you replied, it quotes Gazzi's comment


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## muse

Notice how the Free US press Headlines the story: Nowhere in the title of the story is it apparent that 14 people have been killed



September 13, 2010
*U.S. Koran Tensions Erupt in Kashmir*
By JIM YARDLEY and HARI KUMAR

NEW DELHI  Kashmir erupted on Monday in the worst violence since separatist protests began sweeping through the disputed Himalayan region three months ago, with the authorities partly blaming televised reports of Koran desecration in the United States for the inflamed tensions. 

The bloodshed, which came as Indian leaders were searching for a way out of the Kashmir crisis, left at least 14 civilians and two security officers dead and at least 60 people injured in clashes across the region, the authorities said. In one town, Tangmarg, the authorities said officers opened fire after protesters had set a school and other government buildings ablaze. 

Kashmir has had almost daily Muslim demonstrations since June, with angry crowds defying strict government curfews to throw stones or voice their anger. Protesters range from separatists who want an independent Kashmir state to others demanding that Indias central government remove thousands of Indian paramilitary troops, release political prisoners and lift laws that grant special immunity to security officers. Before Monday, at least 73 people had been killed as officers fired live ammunition against crowds of stone-throwing protesters. 

On Monday, state authorities sought to differentiate the new spasm of violence as separate from the other daily protests, instead linking it to the reports of the desecrated Koran. *For more than a week, Indian authorities had fretted over the planned Sept. 11 burning of a Koran by a Florida pastor, Terry Jones. Officials had asked Indian television channels not to broadcast such an inflammatory act*, and Mr. Jones ultimately canceled his plans in the face of global pressure. 

But* S. S. Kapur, chief secretary of the Jammu and Kashmir State government, said reports on an Iranian state-run English language news channel, Press TV, of Koran desecration in the United States may have inflamed passions in Kashmir. Mr. Kapur denounced the alleged desecration and said authorities had since banned Press TV cable broadcasts in Kashmir. Later in the day, the state cabinet released a statement asking for calm and linking the violence to reports about alleged incidents of desecration of the Koran*. 

It was unclear whether the protesters were responding to Press TVs television broadcasts or Internet accounts of the desecration from the Press TV web site. *Press TV later confirmed on its web site that local cable operators in Kashmir had restricted its broadcasts. 

Today was the spontaneous religious reaction over the issue of burning of the Koran, which was on television, said Taj Mohi-ud-Din, a senior spokesman in the Jammu and Kashmir government, in a telephone interview. *

The sequence of events remained unclear late Monday. Angry protesters are said to have burned a Christian school in Kashmir. In the neighboring state of Punjab, a strict curfew had been instituted in an area with a large Muslim population after angry protesters, responding to rumors about the desecrated Koran, had attacked a church and a police officer. 

In New Delhi, the United States ambassador, Timothy J. Roemer, cited news reports that one misguided individual had torn pages out of a Koran in the United States and condemned the attack as an abhorrent act. He also expressed dismay over the reported attacks against churches in Kashmir and Punjab. 

We strongly support local authorities appeal for calm and an end to the violence, he said in a statement. 

The escalated mayhem in Kashmir further complicates efforts to bring stability back to the region, long a source of conflict between India and Pakistan. 

In New Delhi, top officials convened to weigh proposals to reduce the powers of the armed forces and ease tight security measures in some districts of the region as steps to defuse the crisis. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh offered a conciliatory message, promising talks with groups that reject violence. 

Unrest in the state of Jammu and Kashmir over the last few weeks is a matter of concern, he said during an address at a military conference. The youth of Kashmir are our citizens and their grievances have to be addressed. 

*On Monday, Mirwaiz Umer Farooq, a moderate Muslim leader, condemned the attack on the Christian school and called on Kashmiris not to be provoked into violence.*  _It is a very confused situation here,_ he said in a telephone interview. _Nobody knows which agency is doing what_. 

State authorities have blamed Mr. Farooq for violent protests on Saturday that marred Eid al-Fitr, the festival that ends the fasting month of Ramadan. But Mr. Farooq said those protests were modest compared with the largely peaceful observation of the holiday. He also warned that the central government must release political prisoners, gradually demilitarize the Kashmir Valley and repeal certain security laws in the region, saying that half-hearted measures would not bring peace to the valley. 


Saimah Khwaja contributed to this article.


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## Omar1984

Here is the largest "democracy" again killing innocent Kashmiris because they speak out and protest.


india is not the largest democracy, its the largest hypocrisy, and those who shamelessly support the killings of Kashmiri people, just because Kashmiris protest, are just as bad as those who kill these innocent Kashmiris.


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## DesiGuy

Omar1984 said:


> Here is the largest "democracy" again killing innocent Kashmiris because they speak out and protest.
> 
> 
> india is not the largest democracy, its the largest hypocrisy, and those who shamelessly support the killings of Kashmiri people, just because Kashmiris protest, are just as bad as those who kill these innocent Kashmiris.





The problem is If India give Independence to Kashmir (which she won't), Tomorrow there will other wanting Independence. Nation cannot be divided, just because few idiots stand up and said "we want freedom".


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## Omar1984

DesiGuy said:


> The problem is If India give Independence to Kashmir (which she won't), Tomorrow there will other wanting Independence. Nation cannot be divided, just because few idiots stand up and said "we want freedom".



Oh yea then lets kill those who protest. Is that what democracy is all about? Killing those who protest. If you think that way, then you dont know the first thing about democracy. Freedom is everyone's right in every democracy.


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## DesiGuy

Omar1984 said:


> Oh yea then lets kill those who protest. Is that what democracy is all about? Killing those who protest. If you think that way, then you dont know the first thing about democracy. *Freedom is everyone's right in every democracy.*




As long as it doesn't interfere Nation defence security and most importantly as long as it doesn't divide nation based on someone or i say anyone point of view.


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## Omar1984

DesiGuy said:


> As long as it doesn't interfere Nation defence security and most importantly as long as it doesn't divide nation based on someone or i say anyone point of view.



The problem with you indians is that you are not willing to stand up for Kashmiris and their rights. No wonder you see protests in India Occupied Kashmir so often and so many demading freedom and independence.

If you see Kashmiris as indians then you have to treat them as other indians and give them freedom that everyone has in a democracy. Freedom to speak out and protest.

You live in America. If 13 people were killed by police/troops in a protest in America, you would see hundreds of good people in America protesting against the murder of those 13 people and they would demand those police/troops face the consequences in prison. 


The only indian that sopke in favor of the Kashmiri people was Arundhati Roy and she was labeled as a traitor by the indian public.


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## Hulk

Kashmiri's are the most confused people on this earth. The violence there is purely due to their lack of common sense. Also since security forces are soft they are misusing it. I think they deserve to be killed.


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## Omar1984

indianrabbit said:


> I think they deserve to be killed.



You think someone deserves to be killed because they speak out and protest? You think someone deserves to be killed because they are Kashmiri Muslims? You think someone deserves to be killed because they belong to a region of the subcontinent (where they live and belong and where their roots began) and want something else for their land than someone from gujrat or tamil nadu?


This kind of attitude from indians is the reason why so many people are demanding freedom and independence in India Occupied Kashmir.


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## back me up

Let me get this straight.

A US pastor *THREATENS* to burn the Koran, so the Kashmiri muslims respond by *BURING *a CHURCH????


no wonder indian security forces dont like them.

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## RollingStones

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> hey numbnuts,
> 
> I wasnt asking for the commenters to ''take sides''
> 
> I dont think the views on a Yahoo forum matter. But what is important is to clear misconceptions and expose factually incorrect, hypocritical statements (many of which, unfortunately, seem to be coming from your fellow countrymen)
> 
> Nobody was interested in your little rants and diatribes on this forum, take my post or leave it.
> 
> Incidentally, i aimed it more for PAKISTANIS --as it seems there are misconceptions and stereotypes against them which need to be corrected. Again, learn to comprehend what you read first.



We have a State department for that with millions of dollars in budget. They publish policy papers. Your naivete as to how Americans analyze situations and take sides is unnerving at times. We are a sophisticated country. After all we invented the Internet. Our masses maybe a bit unbothered about the whole thing but the policymakers are right up there. If you talked like this to any of us over here, you would not get a single person to listen to you. You would have lost our ears and our sympathies. Today, as of now, American policy is not to irk India by supporting Kashmir's "independence". We certainly would not listen to Pakistan's rhetoric about Kashmir's independence given that we know that kashmiri areas under pakistan are slowly turning into fundamentalist havens. We have the largest financed intelligence agency in the world and we KNOW!

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## RollingStones

Tuahaa said:


> In your opinion, 'moderate muslims' should stay silent like they are right now if they are being abused, killed, stereotyped and targeted by the media? The people of Kashmir want freedom- you think they'll get it by asking?
> 
> "India, can we break up from you as you have no right over us? Please? Apparently democracy works that way. We will not argue or make any noise if you say no- or else we're being 'terrorists' from 'some fanatical Islamic country'. No way. That will make us look like 'uneducated, rag tag people hurling stones! Nobody will support a movement like that'"
> 
> Sad bro. Just sad.



If American Kashmiris in great positions take up the cause with the State department and organize events here to talk about it, that would surely sway our opinions. A successful event in Bryant Park would turn more heads than all this rioting ever will. We need to hear from successful, responsible people. It is not without reason that we subject our presidential contestants to endless debates before we choose them and we want the Senate to confirm every presidential appointee. There are rules here. If you play by our rules, you will have our ears. If you are not bothered to do that, it is another story. Iraqi Americans had a huge role to play in America democratizing Iraq. If you dont want us, then that's up to you. You can play with yourself.

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## DesiGuy

Omar1984 said:


> The problem with you indians is that you are not willing to stand up for Kashmiris and their rights. No wonder you see protests in India Occupied Kashmir so often and so many demading freedom and independence.
> 
> If you see Kashmiris as indians then you have to treat them as other indians and give them freedom that everyone has in a democracy. Freedom to speak out and protest.
> 
> You live in America. If 13 people were killed by police/troops in a protest in America, you would see hundreds of good people in America protesting against the murder of those 13 people and they would demand those police/troops face the consequences in prison.
> 
> 
> The only indian that sopke in favor of the Kashmiri people was Arundhati Roy and she was labeled as a traitor by the indian public.




Since kasmiris are part of Indian, instead of asking Independence, they should first calm down and behave like citizens of other states. Asking Independence and than abusing India is NOT acceptable at all. I have said before that there should be NO protests allowed if it risk the security of nation. 

There has been violence going on in kashmir for the past the 20+ years. So others are used to it, honestly. If people of kashmir become peaceful and develop good moral, than NOT much police will be required to handle their protests other than strong army on the border of pakistan. 

Like everyone else, Arundhati Roy also has her own views. For example: she is against India nuclear weapons, while many of Indians are in favor of it. (not kind of person with whom everyone, or even some agree with).


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## Hulk

Omar1984 said:


> You think someone deserves to be killed because they speak out and protest? You think someone deserves to be killed because they are Kashmiri Muslims? You think someone deserves to be killed because they belong to a region of the subcontinent (where they live and belong and where their roots began) and want something else for their land than someone from gujrat or tamil nadu?
> 
> 
> This kind of attitude from indians is the reason why so many people are demanding freedom and independence in India Occupied Kashmir.



Nonesense these people are not as innocent. They deserve to be killed because they are indulging in violence. Too much soft tackling. I guess we should take hard stand. Kill anyone who breaks the law let 500 to 1000 die in a week. Peace will come back.


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## DesiGuy

indianrabbit said:


> Nonesense these people are not as innocent. They deserve to be killed because they are indulging in violence. Too much soft tackling. I guess we should take hard stand. Kill anyone who breaks the law let 500 to 1000 die in a week. Peace will come back.




That is not necessary, i think. Just develop some infrastructure and good education system, so those so called protesters will have no time to protest but rather work.

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## RollingStones

Omar1984 said:


> Dont take those forums so seriously. I've seen that indians try to pass by as White Americans so people would take them seriously, even chose names like Michael or John in those forums when they're really patels and then they talk against Pakistan in those forums. They do that in many forums.



BS... I am an American and I can tell you exactly what Americans think about ISlam and Hinduism. We adopted Yoga from India. Most of the CEOs and influential people here are totally swayed by the dharmic and buddhist principles of India. American see Indians very positively despite them taking our jobs. On the other hand, firebrand Islam is really hated here. Islam has hardly done anything for America. There have been no cultural imports and the isolationist ideologies of Islam means that the religion is largely confined to people who have ghettoized themselves to begin with over here. But moderate Islamic people have done well here and many of them are extremely rich. Get them to talk about Muslim brotherhood and organize movements for independence for Kashmir and we will listen. Get the Saudis to tell us that it is important for us to get India to free Kashmir and we will listen. None of the Islamic people we respect tell us any of this. Why should we listen to Pakistanis, who we do not agree with in the first place? I am really getting annoyed by Pakistanis thinking that people who disagree with them are Indians. We in America do NOT agree with Pakistanis and your culture and your version of Islam. Pakistanis in America these days call themselves Indians or South Asians. There is a problem with Pakistan's image in America. Please understand that and try and correct that, instead of trying to indulge in PR exercises.

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## Jade

However much some Pakistani members may argue, India is not going to be partitioned anymore especially on religious lines; Moreover, what is going in Kashmir Valley is against Kashmiriyat. There is a real danger of Kashmir Valley becoming the FATA of India. GoI has to prevent at all costs the talibanization of Kashmir Valley


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## Omar1984

RollingStones said:


> BS... I am an American and I can tell you exactly what Americans think about ISlam and Hinduism. We adopted Yoga from India. Most of the CEOs and influential people here are totally swayed by the dharmic and buddhist principles of India. American see Indians very positively despite them taking our jobs. On the other hand, firebrand Islam is really hated here. Islam has hardly done anything for America. There have been no cultural imports and the isolationist ideologies of Islam means that the religion is largely confined to people who have ghettoized themselves to begin with over here. But moderate Islamic people have done well here and many of them are extremely rich. Get them to talk about Muslim brotherhood and organize movements for independence for Kashmir and we will listen. Get the Saudis to tell us that it is important for us to get India to free Kashmir and we will listen. None of the Islamic people we respect tell us any of this. *Why should we listen to Pakistanis, who we do not agree with in the first place? I am really getting annoyed by Pakistanis thinking that people who disagree with them are Indians. We in America do NOT agree with Pakistanis and your culture and your version of Islam. Pakistanis in America these days call themselves Indians or South Asians. There is a problem with Pakistan's image in America.* Please understand that and try and correct that, instead of trying to indulge in PR exercises.



I dont know what part of the United States you live in, but here in the Northeastern part of the United States we Pakistanis happily say we are Pakistanis and no one looks down at us. My relatives have been living in the U.S. since the 1970's. They said they always tell other Americans they are of Pakistani decent and proudly call themselves Pakistani Americans. They are doing extremely well, and are making above $250,000 yearly in their careers. I live in the U.S. and never in my life called myself indian, i would rather die. *I ALWAYS TELL AMERICANS THAT I AM A PAKISTANI*.

And by the way, there is no Pakistani version of Islam just like there is no Bosnian version of Islam or an Indonesian version of Islam. Islam is a religion. Pakistani is a nationality and not all Pakistanis are Muslims. There is a Christian Pakistani family in my neighborhood, and even though they are Christians they proudly tell other Americans that they are Pakistani Americans. There are fundamentalists in every nationality, in every race, in every religion. Pakistan is a nation of 180 million people. There are about 300,000 Pakistanis living in the United States of America many of whom have been living in the United Stes for decades. You will find moderate Pakistanis, liberal Pakistanis, and extremist Pakistanis. Same with Arabs, Iranians, etc...

I'm pretty sure you are one of those indians pretending to be white. Dont forget to put your fairness cream before you go to bed, maybe then you can go by as a white.


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## d14gtc

J & k 's total population is over 1,00,00,000.The protesters we see are from valley only an no where else and that too consisting around a 1&#37; of total in comparison.Infact the anti indian mass is perhaps larger than what we see in the streets in the form of stone pelters and agitators.But mostly prefered to stay away even.

These young men are clearly seems to be more of logs flowing with the flow of river than a river itself destroying public property and govt. buildings.An totally blinded by the facts and factuals of who are puppeting them behind the scenes. 

All the nation is watching them and perhaps sentiments are growing against them now allover than any sort of sympathy that could help them rather.


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## EjazR

raheel1 said:


> If your civil society and media coverage can bring back the lives of those who have departed, then I am all for it!



Only Allah can give life and death, as a muslim you should know that.

But thepoint still remains for those who say Indians don't care for HR violations. Indian media has given more coverage to the situation than any other international media.

---------- Post added at 10:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 PM ----------

*Hurriyat(G) responsible for Monday violence: DGP*

Director General of Police Kuldeep Khoda Monday held Hurriyat(G) Hurriyat(G) responsible for the Monday&#8217;s &#8216;bloodbath&#8217; by claiming that police had &#8220;video and audio&#8221; recording as a proof to show Hurriyat&#8217;s hand in instigating violence.

Addressing a press conference at PCR Srinagar, Khoda said Hurriyat(G) chairman Syed Ali Geelani&#8217;s close aide, Imtiyaz Haider had made plans to provoke people to assemble at various places across Kashmir. &#8220;We arrested 52 people most of them are either affiliated with Hurriyat(G) or Muslim League,&#8221; he said. On whether, Haider was also arrested, Khoda said &#8220;no&#8221;.
He said government has a bounded duty to protect life and property of the people. He said a large scale of violence was carried out as a result of the alleged desecration of the holy Quran which has been condemned by the government already.
The DGP was accompanied. Principal Secretary Home, B. R. Sharma, Additional Director General of Police,. K. Rajindra and Inspector General of Police, Kashmir, S. M. Sahai were present on the occasion.
Khoda said that police had to resort firing to control the violent mob at various places in the valley in which 13 persons died and 45 got injured. He said one policeman also died in Budgam while 113 police personnel received injuries, 41 of them including Superintendent of Police Bandipora are serious. He said SP Bandipora who has received serious injuries was air lifted to Srinagar for further treatment. He said that one branch of Tyndal Biscoe school building was set ablaze in Tangmarg besides Tehsildar&#8217;s official residence, Treasury office, court office, veterinary office, Patwar Khana etc were also burnt.


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## Areesh

EjazR said:


> [/COLOR]*Hurriyat(G) responsible for Monday violence: DGP*
> 
> Director General of Police Kuldeep Khoda Monday held Hurriyat(G) Hurriyat(G) responsible for the Monday&#8217;s &#8216;bloodbath&#8217; by claiming that police had &#8220;video and audio&#8221; recording as a proof to show Hurriyat&#8217;s hand in instigating violence.
> 
> Addressing a press conference at PCR Srinagar, Khoda said Hurriyat(G) chairman Syed Ali Geelani&#8217;s close aide, Imtiyaz Haider had made plans to provoke people to assemble at various places across Kashmir. &#8220;We arrested 52 people most of them are either affiliated with Hurriyat(G) or Muslim League,&#8221; he said. On whether, Haider was also arrested, Khoda said &#8220;no&#8221;.
> He said government has a bounded duty to protect life and property of the people. He said a large scale of violence was carried out as a result of the alleged desecration of the holy Quran which has been condemned by the government already.
> The DGP was accompanied. Principal Secretary Home, B. R. Sharma, Additional Director General of Police,. K. Rajindra and Inspector General of Police, Kashmir, S. M. Sahai were present on the occasion.
> Khoda said that police had to resort firing to control the violent mob at various places in the valley in which 13 persons died and 45 got injured. He said one policeman also died in Budgam while 113 police personnel received injuries, 41 of them including Superintendent of Police Bandipora are serious. He said SP Bandipora who has received serious injuries was air lifted to Srinagar for further treatment. He said that one branch of Tyndal Biscoe school building was set ablaze in Tangmarg besides Tehsildar&#8217;s official residence, Treasury office, court office, veterinary office, Patwar Khana etc were also burnt.



Like come on yaar we know the reality of all these "proofs". The puppet state govt has filed case against Mirwaiz for arson and riots not against Gilani or any other leader of Huriyat(G).

By the way you need to a little a reality check. Please correct your record.



> At least 17 people were killed and 131 injured today in different parts of the Valley when securitymen opened fire to break up violent protests, triggered by reports of the alleged desecration of the Koran in the United States. *The demonstrations quickly turned into anti-government protests and mobs &#8212; police said at least one was led by a leader of the ruling National Conference who was later booked &#8212; torched a Christian missionary school and government buildings.*
> 
> Chief Secretary S S Kapoor and Director General of Police Kuldeep Khoda called a press conference to appeal for calm, saying reports of the alleged desecration of the Koran were not true. They said they had decided to ban the airing in Kashmir of Iranian channel Press TV which had been putting out the reports.
> 
> Tension had been mounting since Sunday night over reports of the alleged desecration. For the first time, people took to the streets even in Shia-majority Budgam. DGP Khoda blamed activists of the Syed Ali Shah Geelani-led Hurriyat faction for instigating the violence in Budgam. Khoda played intercepts of what he said was a conversation between Hurriyat Geelani activists about organising a protest in Budgam.
> 
> *In Tangmarg, five persons were killed and 65 injured when police and CRPF fired after a huge crowd attacked government properties. Incidentally, the crowd was being led by local National Conference leader Ali Mohammed Sofi (65) alias Ali Sofi and his son who also addressed people in the town square before the rampage, police said. Ali Sofi is said to be close to Mustafa Kamal, former minister and uncle of Chief Minister Omar Abdullah.*



Valley fires rage, Omar feels the Delhi chill


I guess I don't need to remind you that NC is pro India.


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## Rajput Warrior

KASHMIR WILL EITHER BE A PART OF PAKISTAN OR AN INDEPENDENT STATE... EVEN IF IT TAKES ANOTHER 63 YEARS...... THE BLOOD OF 150000 PLUS KASHMIRIS WONT GO IN VIEN.

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## HAIDER

The Act allows an officer of the armed forces to


Fire upon or otherwise use force, even to the causing of death, against any person who is acting in contravention of any law against assembly of five or more persons or possession of deadly weapons.
To arrest without a warrant and with the use of necessary force anyone who has committed certain offenses or is suspected of having done so
To enter and search any premise in order to make such arrests.
The act also bestows legal immunity to the officials, which means that they can not be sued or prosecuted.

The Act has been active in the Indian administrated state of Jammu and Kashmir since 1990. It came under the scanner following three-month long violence in the state since July 2010.
=====================================

That's taken from Indian site. 
Another point, Armed forces has right to kick out or conficate anyone property.


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## IndianArmy

Rajput Warrior said:


> KASHMIR WILL EITHER BE A PART OF PAKISTAN OR AN INDEPENDENT STATE... EVEN IF IT TAKES ANOTHER 63 YEARS...... THE BLOOD OF 150000 PLUS KASHMIRIS WONT GO IN VIEN.



Kashmir will Neither Be an INDEPENDENT State, nor be Merged with any Country , These Are Just temporary, Recruiting Jobless Youths will Only last till they dont have another way of Living, once they Get Jobs, they would Automatically Leave this and Concentrate on there Lively hood..

Almost all the Business men in the valley are Unhappy with the Stone Pelters and would Not allow this to happen if this Continues.... No matter how many Die, no matter how many Live... Life in Kashmir would be Normal once they understand they are getting Used


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## Areesh

IndianArmy said:


> Kashmir will Neither Be an INDEPENDENT State, nor be Merged with any Country , These Are Just temporary, Recruiting Jobless Youths will Only till till they dont have another way of Living, once they Get Jobs, they would Automatically Leave this and Concentrate on there Lively hood..
> 
> Almost all the Business men in the valley are Unhappy with the Stone Pelters and would Not allow this to happen if this Continues.... No matter how many Die, no matter how many Live... *Life in Kashmir would be Normal once they understand they are getting Used*



Lolzzz


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## IndianArmy

First of all, Army is No Superior To Indian Judiciary or law.... The Army special Power act has Been Formed for Quick Response without waiting for an Order to Raid the House, or Wait for an Order to Start the Encounter..... 

These Special Power Enables the Army to Neutralize the Threat Easily, And Not all the Encounters Uses SPA, Ofcourse You cannot Wait for a Warrant When You see a Militant who You had been On an Encounter with ,Goes and Hides in a House , and You wait all the Day and Night for just an Order to Engage with that Hiding Militant....

And If Proven Guilty or Mis use of SPA , the Army jawan would Undergo Court-martial too, as After every Encounter there is a Court of Enquiry held


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gubbi said:


> Whatever makes you feel happy.
> 
> here read this:
> 
> _*Before and after the withdrawal of the British from India in 1947, the princely state of Kashmir and Jammu came under pressure from both India and Pakistan to agree to become part of one of the newly independent countries. According to the instruments of accession relating to the Partition of India, the rulers of princely states were to be given the choice of either acceding to India or Pakistan, or remaining independent. The Maharaja of Kashmir, Hari Singh chose the latter and tried to avoid accession to either country. When British forces ceded responsibility for security to the two dominions, Muslim troops rebelled in the some state force units and alongwith Pashtun tribals from the North West Frontier Province (NWFP), invaded the state, thereby triggering the war.
> Fearing that his forces would be unable to withstand the assault, the Maharaja asked for Indian military assistance. India set a condition that Kashmir must accede to India for it to receive assistance. Whereupon the Government of India recognized the accession of the erstwhile princely state to India, and was considered the new Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir, Indian troops were sent to the state to defend it against the Pakistani forces. The legitimacy of this accession is still disputed.
> Pakistan was of the view that the Maharaja of Kashmir had no right to call in the Indian Army, because it held that the Maharaja of Kashmir was not a heredity ruler, that he was merely a British appointee.[citation needed] There had been no such position as the "Maharaja of Kashmir" prior to British rule. Hence Pakistan decided to take action,*_


More nonsense - how on earth does that passage change the fact that you have no justification for calling Junagadh's accession to Pakistan 'illegal and immoral', or the fact that the Maharajah was already fighting a rebellion against his dictatorial and discriminatory rule in Kashmir, BEFORE the Tribal's entered the conflict.


> What was Pakistan's justification for intervention? None whatsoever, just a trouble maker and that set the ball rolling for all the troubles that Pakistan faces today.


You are being a serious troll here - let me change a couple of words in your sentence:

What was India's justification for intervention in Junagadh? None whatsoever, just a trouble maker and that set the ball rolling for all the troubles that India faces today.



> You dont get it, do ya? It very simple, I have said it earlier and will say it again.
> Post independence, it was mad rush for land grab to consolidate borders by both countries. India played her cards very nicely and came up tops. Simple. Could have been better with Kashmir, if Nehru had played those cards skillfully but got misguided just like he got misguided with China.


Make up your mind - first you tried to argue 'legality and morality' with minimal knowledge of the issues concerning Indian double standards in invading and occupying Junagadh and justifying the annexation of a State that had acceded to Pakistan by holding a unilateral plebiscite.

Then you call Pakistan a 'trouble maker' and that 'it had no justification for intervention in J&K', and then yourself state that 'it was a mad rush and every State was entitled to do whatever it wanted'. Right there you destroyed your own arguments of 'legality and morality' and 'justification for intervention'. You are posting like an utterly confused man, more out of emotion than rational, coherent thought.


> As for Junagadh, Pakistan did not have her forces in those territories, so could not "defend". Added to that is the hesitancy shown by your leaders (probably because of the Hindu majority population) to accept accession, which gave Indian authorities a reason to act, and act they did. Rest is History!


In other words India acted illegally in invading and occupying Junagadh, and Pakistan is justified in maintaining a military deterrent against India, since under your logic India could invade and occupy any part of Pakistan.

India acted after accession was accepted by Pakistan, and the diplomatic cables between the two sides (some of which I will post later in another thread) clearly indicate that India was aware of the accession and wanted Pakistan to annul it.


> You couldnt be more wrong. Eradication, you say? Where?
> On the contrary, India has gone to extreme pains to preserve the Kashmiri culture and its people by giving them unprecedented sops - unavailable to common Indians. And you talk about eradication? Seriously, that deserves a LOL.


'LOL's' won't change what you wrote - to argue the migration of millions of outsiders into Kashmir to settle and buy property, as you and many other Indians advocate, in essence means the extermination of the Kashmiri identity and culture in the long run. It would be one thing if they accepted Indian Statehood and the Indian constitution through a plebiscite, but to force it upon them is nothing but deliberate extermination of their culture to complete their subjugation.


> What China did to Tibetans can be considered as what you put forth. Guess India has to do a Tibet in Kashmir. Then all the flak that India faces will be justified. I say, India should do a Tibet in Kashmir.


Take it up with the Chinese - this thread is on India-Pak-Kashmir.



> Where did I say Pakistan decided to hold a plebiscite in Junagadh?


You stated 'India will decide to permit a plebsicite in kashmir', so since Junagadh acceded to Pakistan, I asked you when Pakistan permitted the plebiscite in Junagadh, that India claimed justified its annexation of the territory.


> Jinnah's speech, though revered, can be considered a farce. The whole reason for Pakistan's creation as Junnah put it, was that Muslims and Hindus of the subcontinent cannot co-exist in peace! How wrong he was! And then after the creation of Pakistan, he makes this speech! What do you make of it?


That is your opinion, I disagree. Jinnah did not believe Muslims would get treated fairly in India, a sentiment strengthened by Nehru and the Congress's rejection of his compromise proposals. He did not at any time advocate that non-Muslims in Pakistan would be unwelcome.


> "*Quite frankly, Pakistan's ideology is none of your business in the context of accessions*."
> Whoa! didnt see THAT coming. That was NOT expected from you. Anyway, why is Pakistan's ideology none of my business, when we are arguing about justifications?


Because the justifications for accession are legal - you cannot just invent your own justifications to hide a part of Indian history in which India acted in a hostile and hypocritical manner.


> Atleast in India's defense, India did not show hypocrisy in calling for a plebiscite in those areas. It was plain - joins us, you dont have a choice. Period.


You held a plebiscite after illegally invading and occupying Junagahd, and you also illegally invaded and occupied Hyderabad. It was hostile, expansionist behavior.


> Similar was the case for Kashmir. India intervened only AFTER accession was signed. However, Pakistan intervened on a flimsy pretext of "helping" people against supposed "atrocities" (which was in fact rebellion by some soldiers who wanted to join Pakistan for being a Muslim state), and created this mess.


And in Junagadh India intervened after the State had acceded to Pakistan, on a 'flimsy pretext of helping people against supposed atrocities and created this mess'.

I am giving you a timeout before I have to perm ban you for even more sheer stupidity and incoherent rants.

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## HAIDER

Doesn't make any sense ...for saving the chruch they killed 18 people and hundereds injured........India should give respect to shimla accord and start thinking about plebicite...be honest and be strong....


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## civfanatic

Church was burned by Pro India NC 


> At least 17 people were killed and 131 injured today in different parts of the Valley when securitymen opened fire to break up violent protests, triggered by reports of the alleged desecration of the Koran in the United States. The demonstrations quickly turned into anti-government protests and mobs &#8212; *police said at least one was led by a leader of the ruling National Conference who was later booked &#8212; torched a Christian missionary school and government buildings. *
> 
> 
> Chief Secretary S S Kapoor and Director General of Police Kuldeep Khoda called a press conference to appeal for calm, saying reports of the alleged desecration of the Koran were not true. They said they had decided to ban the airing in Kashmir of Iranian channel Press TV which had been putting out the reports.
> 
> 
> 
> Tension had been mounting since Sunday night over reports of the alleged desecration. For the first time, people took to the streets even in Shia-majority Budgam. DGP Khoda blamed activists of the Syed Ali Shah Geelani-led Hurriyat faction for instigating the violence in Budgam. Khoda played intercepts of what he said was a conversation between Hurriyat Geelani activists about organising a protest in Budgam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *In Tangmarg, five persons were killed and 65 injured when police and CRPF fired after a huge crowd attacked government properties. Incidentally, the crowd was being led by local National Conference leader Ali Mohammed Sofi (65) alias Ali Sofi and his son who also addressed people in the town square before the rampage, police said. Ali Sofi is said to be close to Mustafa Kamal, former minister and uncle of Chief Minister Omar Abdullah*.



Valley fires rage, Omar feels the Delhi chill

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## notsuperstitious

Nobody gets killed for protesting peacefully. There are protests daily in every city of India.

People get killed for burning property, running policemen over with trucks and throwing stones that kill and maim. Thats not protests - thats violence. The Pakistanis here are shamelessly ignoring this difference. There is tremendous pressure on Indian forces not to cause casualties but when a crowd in hell bent on violence, its unavoidable. I totally support use of force against violent protesters, anarchy must not be tolerated.

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## RollingStones

Omar1984 said:


> I dont know what part of the United States you live in, but here in the Northeastern part of the United States we Pakistanis happily say we are Pakistanis and no one looks down at us. My relatives have been living in the U.S. since the 1970's. They said they always tell other Americans they are of Pakistani decent and proudly call themselves Pakistani Americans. They are doing extremely well, and are making above $250,000 yearly in their careers. I live in the U.S. and never in my life called myself indian, i would rather die. *I ALWAYS TELL AMERICANS THAT I AM A PAKISTANI*.
> 
> And by the way, there is no Pakistani version of Islam just like there is no Bosnian version of Islam or an Indonesian version of Islam. Islam is a religion. Pakistani is a nationality and not all Pakistanis are Muslims. There is a Christian Pakistani family in my neighborhood, and even though they are Christians they proudly tell other Americans that they are Pakistani Americans. There are fundamentalists in every nationality, in every race, in every religion. Pakistan is a nation of 180 million people. There are about 300,000 Pakistanis living in the United States of America many of whom have been living in the United Stes for decades. You will find moderate Pakistanis, liberal Pakistanis, and extremist Pakistanis. Same with Arabs, Iranians, etc...
> 
> I'm pretty sure you are one of those indians pretending to be white. Dont forget to put your fairness cream before you go to bed, maybe then you can go by as a white.



There is a guy who lives right downstairs here who works for the UN Pakistan mission who goes around introducing himself as Indian and then further tells people around that Indians, Pakistanis are the same blah blah blah. After the Times square incident, you can be assured that we dont have high images of Pakistanis, One more guy calling me an Indian...absolutely fabulous. Every single terrorist incident in the US and UK have had roots back in Pakistan...a Pakistani even changed his name to David Headley to avoid detection....and we in America know that. If you think we are stupid, boy, you are in for a surprise. Pakistani have been evicted from domestic flights because a bunch of people just got paranoid about them. People reading urdu literature in NYC subways are routinely reported to the MTA police. Who are you kidding me? We view Islam as emanating from Pakistan as suspect. A majority of the people on the TSA/DSC's no-fly list are from Pakistan. Even credible people from Pakistan are screened for hours at the airport. Pakistani students have a hard time getting student visas to the US, while the country is drowning in Indian and Chinese students. What more anecdotal evidence do you need? The thing is the Pakistanis brought it upon themselves by allowing fanatics to have a free hand in their country. Well, we denied visas to rogue Indian leaders like the guy who was responsible for massive HR violations in India but people's suspicion of Pakistanis...pretty high. At the end of the day, if you took a poll here, Americans would say India=yoga+slums+taking jobs+asian giant; pakistan = fundamentalist Islam+ time square bombing+jihad+loose nukes etc...I hope you catch my drift. This is how we see it, even if this is how it is not in reality.

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## civfanatic

Voilent Protests ?

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## Areesh

fateh71 said:


> Nobody gets killed for protesting peacefully. There are protests daily in every city of India.
> 
> People get killed for burning property, running policemen over with trucks and throwing stones that kill and maim. Thats not protests - thats violence. The Pakistanis here are shamelessly ignoring this difference. There is tremendous pressure on Indian forces not to cause casualties but when a crowd in hell bent on violence, its unavoidable. I totally support use of force against violent protesters, anarchy must not be tolerated.



Actually Indian govt uses extra effort in dealing with situation in India. That is not the case with other parts of India. The number of security forces troops present in IOK aren't comparable with other parts of India. The draconian laws aren't present in other parts of India which are imposed in Kashmir. 

So in short Indian govt also take it something different when as compared to other parts of India. They are justified in doing so since Kashmir doesn't belong to India.


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## civfanatic

Church was burned by Pro India NC 


> At least 17 people were killed and 131 injured today in different parts of the Valley when securitymen opened fire to break up violent protests, triggered by reports of the alleged desecration of the Koran in the United States. The demonstrations quickly turned into anti-government protests and mobs  *police said at least one was led by a leader of the ruling National Conference who was later booked  torched a Christian missionary school and government buildings. *
> 
> 
> Chief Secretary S S Kapoor and Director General of Police Kuldeep Khoda called a press conference to appeal for calm, saying reports of the alleged desecration of the Koran were not true. They said they had decided to ban the airing in Kashmir of Iranian channel Press TV which had been putting out the reports.
> 
> 
> 
> Tension had been mounting since Sunday night over reports of the alleged desecration. For the first time, people took to the streets even in Shia-majority Budgam. DGP Khoda blamed activists of the Syed Ali Shah Geelani-led Hurriyat faction for instigating the violence in Budgam. Khoda played intercepts of what he said was a conversation between Hurriyat Geelani activists about organising a protest in Budgam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *In Tangmarg, five persons were killed and 65 injured when police and CRPF fired after a huge crowd attacked government properties. Incidentally, the crowd was being led by local National Conference leader Ali Mohammed Sofi (65) alias Ali Sofi and his son who also addressed people in the town square before the rampage, police said. Ali Sofi is said to be close to Mustafa Kamal, former minister and uncle of Chief Minister Omar Abdullah*.



Valley fires rage, Omar feels the Delhi chill

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## Patrician

I have a question to all my Pakistani friends, a question that has intrigued me for long.

If Indian forces as as bad/evil/barbaric/draconian as they are being made out to be, then why is the number of causalities only 80-90/100? Why not 1000? Why not 10000?

Considering the all-pervasive protesters and Indian security forces, 80-90 seems to be a very tiny number keeping in mind the number of protests that have taken place. 

Why don't they just shoot everyone who comes in their way? What's stopping them other than their intention to not shoot as far as possible?

What is stopping these guys in uniform from shooting say 100-200 people? (obviously there are so many easy targest available to them) and mind you they are not armed with only bamboo sticks, they have got assault rifles too. And it's very easy to use them when you have so many easy targets lurking around and that too when especially the law (AFSPA) gives you the power and legitimacy to shoot. They choose to not exercise that power:






As anyone can see, they are firing tear gas shells. Even in other videos, whatever rifle rounds they fire, they fire them in air. 

Now somebody please answer my question.

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## Awesome

The extent of India's barbarity is almost unimaginable. In this day and age it has been given a free hand to kill in its failed attempts to silence all dissenting voices without reprimand from any nation of the world.

18 people killed! C'mon!

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## civfanatic

Patrician said:


> I have a question to all my Pakistani friends, a question that has intrigued me for long.
> 
> If Indian forces as as bad/evil/barbaric/draconian as they are being made out to be, then why is the number of causalities only 80-90/100? Why not 1000? Why not 10000?
> 
> Considering the all-pervasive protesters and Indian security forces, 80-90 seems to be a very tiny number keeping in mind the number of protests that have taken place.
> 
> Why don't they just shoot everyone who comes in their way? What's stopping them other than their intention to not shoot as far as possible?
> 
> What is stopping these guys in uniform from shooting say 100-200 people? (obviously there are so many easy targest available to them) and mind you they are not armed with only bamboo sticks, they have got assault rifles too. And it's very easy to use them when you have so many easy targets lurking around and that too when especially the law (AFSPA) gives you the power and legitimacy to shoot. They choose to not exercise that power:
> 
> YouTube - Raw Video: Rocks Fly in Kashmir Protest
> 
> As anyone can see, they are firing tear gas shells. Even in other videos, whatever rifle rounds they fire, they fire them in air.
> 
> Now somebody please answer my question.



Then who killed these 100 people .... The killings are delibrate and systematic to deter Kashmiris from asking for freedom . The implicit message is look we killed only hundred but if we wished we could kill thousands and even lacs .


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## Areesh

By Indian People&#8217;s Tribunal

13 September, 2010

Countercurrents.org



> New Delhi: Human Rights Law Network and ANHAD came together to offer a platform to the victims of gross human rights violations in the conflict-torn Kashmir Valley, which culminated in a comprehensive documentation of the anguish and grievances of a generation that has gone under the gun. The report of the two-day &#8216;Indian People&#8217;s Tribunal on Human Rights Violations in Kashmir&#8217;, organized in Srinagar in February 20-21, 2010, was released on September 8, 2010 in New Delhi.
> 
> The hon&#8217;ble Jury, headed by, *Justice H. Suresh, former Judge, Bombay High Court*, heard the victims who showed unmatched courage and faith to depose before the tribunal despite the threats to themselves and their families, especially in the circumstances where people have lost faith in the remedial and retributive systems. In all, 37 testimonies came to be recorded.
> 
> Please find below the findings and recommendations of the Jury:
> 
> *FINDINGS*
> 
> *It is true that we sat for two days for public hearings. The first day, there was a Bandh in Srinagar as someone had been killed by the police. The day after the 2nd day, again there was a Bandh, because a child had been killed in a stampede.* Perhaps this is the kind of life for every Kashmiri citizen. No one knows when and for what time, and where curfew could be imposed, and every movement will be at a standstill. If we had been able to sit a little longer, we would have heard the same facts, and of course, more mothers and more Parents of Disappeared Persons would have told the same story &#8211; a story of illegal arrest, arbitrary detention and torture, custodial deaths and ****; all with no hope for justice.
> 
> Were Jammu and Kashmir to be called a &#8216;banana republic&#8217; (as it often is), such a dubious distinction, though unfair in many ways, would be fairly apposite in many others. Some describe the socio-political upheaval of the past two decades as a civil war; others label it as a terrorist movement, with political and infrastructural backing from across the Line of Control: have it either way, *there is no denying the fact that the people of the state have borne the brunt of the extreme violence of the past twenty years, all in the name of security, at the hands of armed forces.*
> 
> *I. Militarisation*
> 
> *In Kashmir, there is one soldier for every twenty people. There are 5,00,000 armed troops, 3,00,000 army men, 70,000 Rashtriya Rifle soldiers, 1,30,000 central police forces as against the total population of 1 crore. In the past 20 years, a generation of Kashmiris has grown with soldiers at every street corner &#8220;often even in their living rooms&#8221; (Sunday Times of India, 13th June, 2010).* The grievance of the people is that instead of confining the role of the military and security forces to that of external defence and as against militants, it is regularly and continuously used for domestic repression; and as Professor Hameeda Nayeem says : &#8220;that has transformed the Indian state into a source of deep insecurity for the citizens &#8211; as instruments of the persistent violator of human rights and converted the Indian military into an illegitimate agent of repression. Both in turn seriously undermine the democratic credential of the state.&#8221;
> 
> This excessive militarization has resulted in wiping out all space for the exercise of democratic rights by the people, the result being terrorization of the people at large. This has resulted in ruthless action on all dissent, and at the same time the military indulges in acts of violence against people with impunity.
> 
> *We are of the view that all these acts of violence against innocent people are violations under the Geneva Convention, 1949, to which India is a party.* The provisions of the Common Art.3 of the Four Conventions dealing with &#8220;armed conflicts not of an international character&#8221; occurring within a State require the parties to treat humanely all persons taking no part, or not being able to take active part in the hostilities&#8230;.; and further the parties are prohibited from indulging in violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, and cruel treatment and torture.
> 
> There is a further Protocol II of June 1977 for Protection of Victims of Non-International Armed Conflicts which further reiterates that all persons who do not take any direct part in hostilities are &#8220;entitled to respect for their person, honour and convictions and religious practices.&#8221; They shall &#8220;in all circumstances&#8221; be treated humanely without any adverse distinction. Art.13 says: &#8220;The civilian population and individual civilians shall enjoy general protection against the dangers arising from military operations.&#8221; To give effect to this protection, the Protocol says: &#8220;The Civilian population as such as well as individual civilians, shall not be the object of attack. Acts or threats of violence, the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited.*&#8221; It is unfortunate that the State, which has sponsored these armed forces who have indulged in killings, loot, arson and **** of innocent victims, has not kept these provisions of the Convention in mind.*
> 
> *II. Draconian Laws*
> 
> Militarisation is invariably accompanied by Draconian laws. Together they have such a cascading effect that all human rights and democratic rights get washed away. This is what happened in Manipur, Assam, Kashmir and other places
> 
> In Manipur, the Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act, 1958, has been in force for five decades. It was first enacted to contain Naga dissidence. It was introduced in Assam in 1980 and in Kashmir in 1987. Section 4 of the Act states that armed forces officers have only to form an &#8220;opinion&#8221; to consider what may be necessary, and then on the basis of such &#8220;opinion&#8221; they &#8220;can fire upon or otherwise use force, even to the causing death against any person&#8221; and they can &#8220;arrest, without warrant any person&#8221; and &#8220;enter and search without warrant any premises&#8221; at any time, and use force to achieve this objective. S.6 of the Act gives them full protection against any prosecution or legal proceedings in respect of anything done or &#8220;purported to be done&#8221; in exercise of the powers conferred by this Act. T*he result is that in all these States, and of course, in Kashmir, arbitrary arrests, detention, torture and custodial deaths, **** and midnight raids into homes and disappearances have become routine. *
> 
> The other Act which is resorted to silence all protest and dissent is the Jammu and Kashmir Public Safety Act, 1978. *This law is especially draconian in nature, falling far short of meeting international human rights standards, and has become notorious for its rampant misuse at the hands of the armed forces.* Under this Act, the maximum period of detention is two years, without trial, for &#8220;persons acting in any manner prejudicial to the security of the State.&#8221; What would constitute such an action is again left to the better judgement of the arresting agency or official, thereby giving sweeping powers to the security forces to arrest and detain at their pleasure.
> Prisons in Jammu and Kashmir and beyond are full of detainees booked under the infamous PSA, *with reports suggesting that even minors have been arrested and detained under this law on a number of occasions.* Furthermore, very often the PSA is slapped on a person again and again, at the end of successive periods of two years, thereby making the actual period of detention much longer. *Farooq Ahmed Dar, one such detainee, had to spend sixteen years in prison before he was finally released in 2006. *There have been various instances where political leaders and common people have been slapped with successive detention orders despite the fact that Courts keep on quashing them. This is done only with a purpose and intention not to release the detenue.
> 
> *III. Disappearances*
> 
> One other impact of militarization and arbitrary detention is large scale custodial deaths, extra-judicial killings and enforced disappearances. We have the testimony of M/s Parveena Ahangar, who is the Chairperson of the Association of Parents of Disappeared Persons (APDP), *which clearly establishes that from about 1989, about 8-10,000 persons have just disappeared.* *Many of them were killed while in custody of the army or the security men. One Rashid Billa (SDPO) at Sowa is reported to have killed over 512 persons extra-judicially.* Whenever and wherever the next of Kin went to the police stations or army camps to enquire, or to claim the bodies, they were either threatened or tortured. *Some had to pay bribes to get information.* What is important is that there has been no proper investigation to apprehend the culprits and to punish them.
> 
> Mohd. Yasin Malik (Chairperson of J&K Liberation Front &#8211; JKLF) says that he took 150 victims of disappearances to Delhi; but they were abused and black ink was thrown over him. The fact remains that no serious investigation was done even by the Central Government.
> 
> He also pointed out that the worst sufferers were women and children. He said : &#8220;they cannot say whether they are widows or whether their husbands are just missing. Neither can the children call themselves orphans or say that their father is still alive&#8230;this is what I conveyed to the PM of India. This is the primary case&#8230;the Kashmiri women; the ones who can neither say they are wives or widows. Tell what you are! Are you a widow or are you still married?&#8221;
> 
> The UN General Assembly in 2006 has unanimously adopted the International Convention for the Protection of all Persons from Enforced Disappearances. Earlier, there was the UN Declaration to the above effect (December 1992). Article 2 of the Declaration says that, &#8220;the prohibition&#8221; of &#8220;disappearances&#8221; is absolute and no state can find an excuse. Article 7 says, &#8220;no circumstances, whether a threat of war, internal political instability, or any other public emergency may be invoked to justify&#8221; these acts of violation. Hence, it is not open to the state to resort to enforced disappearances that would include all custodial deaths on the ground of any threat to internal security or external safety and stability. It is here the state&#8217;s liability becomes absolute, and we should have no hesitation in making these observations.
> 
> *IV. *****
> 
> Militarised environments expose women to serious forms of dehumanization. The masculinity cult that pervades military establishments are intrinsically anti-female and therefore create a hostile environment for women. **** becomes a common feature in such a situation. In all such cases there have been no investigations. There are complaints pending from 1991. *it appears that in 1991 about 100 women, including minors and the elderly (between 13 to 80 years), the pregnant and disabled were raped in Kunan Poshpara, Kupwara by the 4th Rajputana Rifles, during a search operation. However, till today no action has been taken against the culprits, *despite several reports in the newspapers and journals, and also by various NGO groups, both national and international.
> 
> *Apart from such direct abuse, women had to suffer further humiliation. In the workds of Bakthi (a witness before us) : &#8220;At the time of the incident I was 30 years old. Within a year of the incident, four women from our village &#8211; Saja, Mehtaba, Zarifa and Jana, succumbed to death stemming from the mental trauma and disgrace they had to put up with. *These women had also been struggling with physical ailments subsequent to the incident. The self-humiliation resulting from our traumatic experience didn&#8217;t allow us to visit any of our relatives from other villages, nor did they pay us a visit. *We also had to take our children out from their schools, for fear of being apprehended and tortured by the army. &#8220;My son and many young men from the village grew up harboring vengeance in their hearts, for what had been done to the women in their families.&#8221;*
> 
> *We must also say that quite a number of **** cases go unreported due to constant threats from the army men and also due to fear of social stigma and the futility of taking up an embarrassing legal battle.*
> 
> Such abuses have taken place in places like Manipur where the army is placed above the civilian police, with the same result of utter indifference by the concerned authorities.
> 
> *V. Plight of the Disabled*
> 
> Throughout the conflict, people have been maimed and disabled due to the indiscriminate firing of security forces during even non-violent protests. People have also been disabled during interrogations where torture was used. *We heard the testimonies from Bijbehara, where forces had indiscriminately opened fire on peaceful demonstrators in 1993. Many injured persons have been disabled for life and have suffered mentally, physically, and financially. Hardly any steps have been taken for their rehabilitation.*
> 
> The testimonies we heard of disabled persons revealed that they were totally shocked and shattered. The disabled deposed before us to say that they could bear with the aftermath of physical injury, but not with the mental pain, agony, and trauma that make them feel that they die several deaths every day, rather than living even once.
> 
> VI. Failure of all Democratic Institutions and Redressal Mechanisms
> 
> Routine criminal investigations &#8211; a key function of the police &#8211; are among the first to deteriorate under militarization.* All complaints against the army men just remain without any investigation. As we have seen above, under AFSPA, the army can shoot, kill, or do any heinous act, and they get protection; and the police become helpless. This also leads to a situation where the police acquire a taste for impunity, when they have to work within a military environment. This is exactly what has happened in Kashmir.* Here, the rules do not operate as laid down in the statute books. For example, we heard testimonies from the victims, that FIRs filed by them were distorted by the police to accuse the victims themselves. In some cases, the police just refuse to record FIRs and the victims remain helpless. *The police appear to be not bothered about the complaints from the victims, because they know that no one will question them.*
> 
> This has also affected the Judiciary. No criminal court could be in a position to do proper justice, with impunity for the actions of the army, and with no investigation being possible by the police. It appears that in 1993 there were 7000 habeas corpus petitions pending in the Jammu & Kashmir High Court. Some of the petitions are still pending. In about 2001, there were 35000 civilians under detention and quite a number of them still continue to be inside, while the Courts remain judicially paralytic. In quite a number of cases where the victim had been killed, the courts have not even awarded any compensation to the next of kin. We have also some cases where the complainants have been made to go from one court to the other for nearly two decades, with no relief whatsoever. Many of them feel that they would get no justice through the courts.
> 
> Even the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) and the State Human Rights Commission (SHRC) are not in a position to do anything, inasmuch as they have no power to investigate or to take any action on any complaint of violation o human rights by the army. Even when complaints were made to the SHRC, it has failed to exercise its powers proactively to provide justice to the victims.
> 
> Needless to say that the Executive and the Legislature were more involved in playing power politics than in rescuing the people from gross human rights violations.
> 
> *RECOMMENDATIONS*
> 
> 1. Withdraw the Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act, 1958 (AFSPA) and the Jammu & Kashmir Public Safety Act, 1978 (JKPSA)
> 
> It is necessary that these draconian laws should be withdrawn forthwith. These laws together with militarization emanate from the notion that the use of force is necessary for the effective ruling of a population. Similar is the belief that Terrorism cannot be eliminated without a harsh law like TADA, POTA, etc. However, it is our universal experience that nowhere in the world have harsh laws ended terrorism, nor has any militarization succeeded in suppressing insurgency, unless taken to the extreme, developing into a situation of genocide, as in Sri Lanka.
> 
> It is true that all these laws have been upheld by the Supreme Court of India. That does not mean (as Justice B.P. Jeevan Reddy&#8217;s Committee for Review of AFSPA says) that the Supreme Court has pronounced &#8220;upon the wisdom or the necessity of such an enactment&#8221;. *The Act has become &#8220;a symbol of oppression, an object of hate, and an instrument of discrimination and highhandedness&#8221;. Therefore (as the Committee has recommended) the Act should be withdrawn forthwith.*
> It should be noted that India has been repeatedly criticized in the UN Human Rights Committee for the existence of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, which violates crucially several articles of the ICCPR. Hereto annexed as Annexure I is the Concluding Observations of the U.N. Human Rights Committee on the Report of India (Extracts).
> The other Act - the JKPSA, which provides for arbitrary detention is equally violative of ICCPR. We wonder how such draconian laws could have been upheld after Maneka Gandhi&#8217;s(1978) case by any Constitutional Court.
> 
> *2. Minimise the number of Army men*
> 
> Keeping in view the large concentration of military and paramilitary forces in the state of Jammu & Kashmir, which is disproportionate to the civilian population and is also making civil administration ineffective in many matters, the Government of India should take immediate steps to minimize the number of these forces in order to bring relief to the civilian population.
> 
> *3. The need for a Special Judicial Authority*
> 
> We recommend the establishment of a special judicial authority making an independent and thorough inquiry into all allegations of human rights violations, including disappearances, custodial killings, ****, torture, including torture of prisoners, fake encounters, and all other cases related to excesses by security forces. In any case the NHRC and/or the SHRC be authorised to investigate all allegations of violence by the agents of the State, which includes the Army and the security forces (as recommended by the U.N. Human Rights Committee)
> 
> *4. No licence to kill*
> 
> Every case of killing by police and security forces in situations like protests, demonstrations, riots, etc. should be followed by a judicial inquiry into the police/security forces firing/actions, followed by proper, time-bound administrative action. It is made clear that the police have no license to kill anyone in any situation, unless they can justify this action under Section 100 of the IPC, which has to be done in a judicial procedure.
> 
> *5. Need for rehabilitation*
> 
> Provide proper rehabilitation to families of deceased, injured, and traumatized victims, especially the raped. Compensation as interim relief should be arranged promptly. Compensation should be adequate and purposeful. Compensation should be for both injury to person as well as for damage to property, i.e. houses, etc
> 
> *6. Establishment of Fast Track Courts*
> 
> The State should immediately establish Fast Track Courts for the purpose of trying the large number of cases which are pending. The Courts should call for records from every police station and give suitable directions to investigate and file charge- sheets within a time bound framework.
> 
> *7. Release all detenues*
> 
> Both state as well as central governments should take immediate steps to address the sufferings of detainees who are languishing in various jails and interrogation centres in and outside the state of Jammu and Kashmir and have been complaining of torture and inhuman treatment inside the jails.
> 
> *8. Scheme for Witness Protection*
> 
> The State should provide witness protection since many of the witnesses are being threatened.
> 
> *9. Establish &#8216;Grievance Cells&#8217;*
> 
> As Justice Jeevan Reddy&#8217;s Committee says, &#8220;Over the years many people from the region have been complaining that among the most difficult issues is the problem faced by those who seek information about family members and friends who have been picked up and detained by armed forces or security forces. There have been a large number of cases where those taken away without warrants have &#8220;disappeared&#8221;, or ended up dead or badly injured. Suspicion and bitterness have grown as a result. There is need for a mechanism which is transparent, quick and involves authorities from concerned agencies as well as civil society groups to provide information on the whereabouts of missing persons within 24 hours.&#8221;
> 
> As recommended by the Committee, it is necessary that the Government should first establish a &#8220;Grievance Cell&#8221; in every town where armed forces are deployed. These cells will receive complaints regarding allegations of missing persons or abuse of law by security/armed forces, make prompt enquiries and furnish information to the complainants. The Cell should have the full authority to inspect and call for every record maintained by the security forces or by the local authorities. The Cell should have one or two senior members of the local administration and one or two independent senior citizens who do not belong to any political parties.
> 
> *10. The need for dialogue with the people*
> 
> From the evidence put before us, and other human rights reports on J&K it is clear that the rule of law does not operate as laid down in the statute books. Talks between Kashmiri leaders including the separatists and the Central Government have not led to any positive outcome. In fact it would appear that the real mass discourse is a reflection of the mass alienation in the Kashmir Valley. Demonstrations and street protests often resulting in clashes and stone throwing have regularly led to civilian deaths fuelling another cycle of protest. The Government&#8217;s focus is on containing the armed militants but not on having a sustained dialogue with the population and its leaders. The numbers of militants killed as indices of peace in the Valley is misleading. The crucial indicator of mass alienation is not the infiltration of militants but resistance by the people.
> Any path for a solution of the J&K problem must squarely and frontally deal with this mass alienation of the people and directly confront its causes. As a confidence building measure, the Government should hold talks with the J&K representatives, organisations of men and women, in Srinagar. *Currently talks on these matters are held in Delhi including talks with Pakistan. The Kashmiris find themselves out of the dialogue process as no talks are held in Srinagar. *
> 
> *Signed: *
> 
> Justice H. Suresh, former Judge, Bombay High Court
> Justice Malay Sengupta, former Acting CJ, Sikkim High Court
> Professor Kamal Mitra Chenoy, Jawaharlal Nehru University, Delhi
> Dr. Nusrat Andrabi, former principal, Government Women&#8217;s College, Srinagar
> Professor Anuradha Chenoy, Jawaharlal Nehru University, Delhi
> Shujaat Bukhari, senior journalist, Srinagar



Indian People&#8217;s Tribunal Report On Human Rights Violations In IOK


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## Patrician

civfanatic said:


> Church was burned by Pro India NC
> 
> 
> Valley fires rage, Omar feels the Delhi chill



So now Indian media has become trustworthy?


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## IndianArmy

Well the Govt must Disarm the Police with Deadly weapons Such as these, and Arm With Rubber Bullets and Tasers Instead.... Police should Shoot them down, never Hunt them down....


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## Patrician

civfanatic said:


> Then who killed these 100 people .... The killings are delibrate and systematic to deter Kashmiris from asking for freedom . *The implicit message is look we killed only hundred but if we wished we could kill thousands and even lacs .*



Seriously?

And even if I accept your point for a second then don't you think your stance is bordering on insanity?

I mean here is a party which (as per you) is willing to kill in lacs (ok let's make it a million(10 lacs) from my side), so here is a party that is willing to kill a million (from both, your and my logic as I espoused yours) and still you're not getting the point?

Let me rephrase, 

Indians are willing to kill even a million if they have to and still you do not get the point?

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## Patrician

@ civfanatic, your response spurned another question in my mind. Please answer my friend,

As has often been stated in the past that Indian army killed many thousands kashmiris and buried them in so-called hidden graveyards, then why can't these guys in uniform in the video do the same?

See your logic is now turning back to bite you.

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## notsuperstitious

Areesh said:


> Actually Indian govt uses extra effort in dealing with situation in India. That is not the case with other parts of India. The number of security forces troops present in IOK aren't comparable with other parts of India. The draconian laws aren't present in other parts of India which are imposed in Kashmir.
> 
> So in short Indian govt also take it something different when as compared to other parts of India. They are justified in doing so since Kashmir doesn't belong to India.



Thats just an accusation, not even an assertion. Show me in India anywhere else where police get attacked with rocks, govt buildings are set on fire and policemen run down with heavy vehicles and then police do not use force, lethal force.

Here, see this

2008 Gurjar unrest in Rajasthan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If these protesters want violence, nobody can stop them. And how much these separatists hate violence is clear from the thousands of dead Pro India muslim and hindu kashmiris. All the moral protesting is just political point scoring, unfortunately for them, nobody is falling for this drama.


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## EjazR

AFSPA was applied in Kashmir in 1990 when Pakistani based militants starting attacking and wrecking havoc in Kashmir. So its been in Kashmir since 1990. One of the reason why Pakistanis got isolated in the 90s.

It was applied in 1958 in NE so you might have confused the two dates.

Some of the provisions are certainly not justifiable. But in Pakistan you still have Frontier Crimes regulation that are even more draconian that justifies collective punishment, something that only ISrael justifies with its policy of collective punishment as well.


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## Areesh

fateh71 said:


> Thats just an accusation, not even an assertion. Show me in India anywhere else where police get attacked with rocks, govt buildings are set on fire and policemen run down with heavy vehicles and then police do not use force, lethal force.



It is not an accusation it is a reality. Gujrat or any other state don't holds 700000+ troops but IOK does. Kashmir public safety act is imposed in IOK not in Gujrat or maharashtra or any other Indian mainland. 

You are trying to compare apple with oranges. This is not a justification that since their are no killings in other parts of India on protests so it is Kashmiris who are responsible. You can't expect something good from those who lived their lives under the shadows of guns their lands occupied by foreigners.


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## civfanatic

Patrician said:


> @ civfanatic, your response spurned another question in my mind. Please answer my friend,
> 
> As has often been stated in the past that Indian army killed many thousands kashmiris and buried them in so-called hidden graveyards, then why can't these guys in uniform in the video do the same?
> 
> .



They will do so when they want . They won't ask me and just becuase we don't know it right now is no guarentee that it is not taking place . 


> See your logic is now turning back to bite you


How Exactly ? Just becuase you say so

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## Patrician

civfanatic said:


> *They will do so when they want . They won't ask me and just becuase we don't know it right now is no guarentee that it is not taking place . *



And still you will not change your policy? I mean you know you can't win the battle with the current battle plan then why are you not changing the battle plan?



civfanatic said:


> How Exactly ? Just becuase you say so



*No. Just because I proved so.*

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## Areesh

EjazR said:


> AFSPA was applied in Kashmir in 1990 when Pakistani based militants starting attacking and wrecking havoc in Kashmir. So its been in Kashmir since 1990. One of the reason why Pakistanis got isolated in the 90s.
> 
> It was applied in 1958 in NE so you might have confused the two dates.
> 
> Some of the provisions are certainly not justifiable. But in Pakistan you still have Frontier Crimes regulation that are even more draconian that justifies collective punishment, something that only ISrael justifies with its policy of collective punishment as well.



You can go to any extent to defend your army's terrorism in Kashmir but you can read more about how your army used these laws for massacre and rapes.

Here

By the way we have no problem repealing FCR once things get settled in FATA. Our PM has also said the same in parliament. And yeah one more thing we have made some amendments to abolish controversial parts of this law.
 Amendments to Frontier Crime Regulation approved


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## civfanatic

Patrician said:


> *No. Just because I proved so.*



If this is what you call proof then I can prove Gravitation does not exist .

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## notsuperstitious

Areesh said:


> It is not an accusation it is a reality. Gujrat or any other state don't holds 700000+ troops but IOK does. Kashmir public safety act is imposed in IOK not in Gujrat or maharashtra or any other Indian mainland.
> 
> You are trying to compare apple with oranges. This is not a justification that since their are no killings in other parts of India on protests so it is Kashmiris who are responsible. You can't expect something good from those who lived their lives under the shadows of guns their lands occupied by foreigners.



I just gave you a link that there IS lethal force by Indian police when protesters resort to violence. And thats not the only case, it happens all the time. So I DID NOT say there are no deaths, I said there are no deaths where protests are peaceful. You just refused to read it.

Kashmir has more troops because of the terrible violence unleashed by the separatists and their pakistani backers and other pakistani non state actors AKA terrorists in Kashmir. Govt officials, Hindu Kashmiri pundits, pro india politicians and anyone who did not tow the pro pakistan line was gunned down. Right from 1947 Pakistan has done the job of making the situation in Kashmir worse, and now they are complaining there are that many troops in Kashmir, of course there are, and of course that bothers you. Because those troops are there for you.


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## Areesh

Patrician said:


> *No. Just because I proved so.*



I have also proved that the world is a cube.

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## Areesh

fateh71 said:


> I just gave you a link that there IS lethal force by Indian police when protesters resort to violence. And thats not the only case, it happens all the time. So I DID NOT say there are no deaths, I said there are no deaths where protests are peaceful. You just refused to read it.
> 
> Kashmir has more troops because of the terrible violence unleashed by the separatists and their pakistani backers and other pakistani non state actors AKA terrorists in Kashmir. Govt officials, Hindu Kashmiri pundits and anyone who did not tow the pro pakistan line was gunned down. Right from 1947 Pakistan has done the job of making the situation in Kashmir worse, and now they are complaining there are than many troops in Kashmir, of course there are, and of course that bothers you. Because those troops are there for you.



The answer that I was expecting anyways I think this link answers it all.

Indian People&#8217;s Tribunal Report On Human Rights Violations In IOK


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## Patrician

civfanatic said:


> If this is what you call proof then I can prove Gravitation does not exist .



What part of my proof did you not understand my friend?

I said "India is willing to kill is many required to preserve its territorial integrity"

My proof is 'logic' and if you still do not understand then let me elaborate:

1. India has enormous amount of resources at its disposal.
2. India has a huuuuuge military at its command to keep Kashmir firmly under Indian control
3. India has world opinion going for it in the current geo-political scenario.
4. UN/US/China none of them wants to get into the quagmire of kashmir especially after India proved its relevance during their worst economic crisis after the great depression.
5. This is the most important, Indian public and a whole billion plus of them permit their govt. to do whatever it can, I repeat, whatever it can in order to keep Kashmir under firm Indian control.

Now tell me, what factors do you envisage working for you in this misguided and bungled up battle plan of yours?

I'm only asking you to change your battle plan since your current one doesn't seem to be working in your favour.

You will have to learn to compromise.

Pakistan will have to compromise.
india will have to compromise.

No redrawing of borders is going to take place unless:

1. India permits so
2. Somebody compells India by use of force (read war)

So in my honest opinion, greater autonomy for Kashmir is the only solution. 

Other than that, there is war. And in war, I do not have to remind you again that which party has nearly unlimited amount of resources at its disposal.

My friend, its nearly impossible to unseat the power of the state without using open war.

And nobody is supporting you for open war in the current geo-political-economic scenario.

So learn to compromise. Fanaticism and loudmouth blabbering will not solve your problem.

Many of your problems are genuine and most Indians will accept that. Human rights violations must cease and everything including greater autonomy must be grated to kashmir.

But complete independence from India or even Pakistan for that matter is a far fetched idea which will get you nowhere but only away from ground reality.

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## EjazR

I am not defending wrongs done by the army or other security forces. I thoroughly condemn them as would the many Indians just like you quoted in your posts. And I think that once the situation stablises and UJC is disbanded in Muzaffarabad AFSPA should be removed just as it was not there before `1989. Infact, it has already been removed from Buddhist majority Leh and muslim majority KArgil districts. So there is precedence that AFSPA can be removed in other parts of J&K state.

I completely understand that FCR should be repealed after things get settleed in FATA. But was there any reason to have FCR before the current times? I am just showing how 4 million people in FATA live under FCR since independance which is much more draconian compared to the 20 years that AFSPA is in place in Kashmir in the context of PAkistani based militants wreacking havoc in Kashmir. Accepting the fact lets say for the moment that IA is some evil entity, you don't expect IA to spread rose petals when militants cross over and start subversive attacks like what happened in the 90s.


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## notsuperstitious

Areesh said:


> The answer that I was expecting anyways I think this link answers it all.
> 
> Indian Peoples Tribunal Report On Human Rights Violations In IOK



LOL, and your response is predictable too. The issue was of violent protests. Anyway.

There are human rights abuses by separatists and terrorists too.

K P S Gill: The Kashmiri Pandits: An Ethnic Cleansing the World Forgot -- Islamist Extremism & Terrorism in South Asia
Rights Abuses Behind Kashmir Fighting | Human Rights Watch
BERNAMA - More Muslims Killed In Kashmir By Militants
Congressman Frank Pallone, Jr. (NJ06) - Pallone Introduces Resolution Condemning Human Rights Violations Against Kashmiri Pandits
Bill Text - 109th Congress (2005-2006) - THOMAS (Library of Congress)
Asia Times
News : European Parliamentarians express concern for Gilgit Baltistan


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## Areesh

fateh71 said:


> LOL, and your response is predictable too. The issue was of violent protests. Anyway.
> 
> There are human rights abuses by separatists and terrorists too.
> 
> K P S Gill: The Kashmiri Pandits: An Ethnic Cleansing the World Forgot -- Islamist Extremism & Terrorism in South Asia
> Rights Abuses Behind Kashmir Fighting | Human Rights Watch
> BERNAMA - More Muslims Killed In Kashmir By Militants
> Congressman Frank Pallone, Jr. (NJ06) - Pallone Introduces Resolution Condemning Human Rights Violations Against Kashmiri Pandits
> Bill Text - 109th Congress (2005-2006) - THOMAS (Library of Congress)
> Asia Times
> News : European Parliamentarians express concern for Gilgit Baltistan



So are you justifying the acts of your army with those militants whose loyalty and ethnicity isn't confirm. God knows whether how many of those are Pakistani supported and how many Indian intelligence agencies supported terrorists. Like come one yaar the "brave" Indian army should show some grace in comparison of these militants. 

It is Rashtrya Rifles who has the dignity to **** 80 years women. Don't how many militants have reached this piety. You are again comparing apples with oranges.


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## Areesh

> I completely understand that FCR should be repealed after things get settleed in FATA. But was there any reason to have FCR before the current times?



Yup you are right but these laws were in placed to put law and order in the law less regions of FATA. They were definitely not their to keep occupied FATA or any thing like this. We can say that Govts didn't give importance to this issue and didn't feel it necessary to amend them. Anyways the GOP has no problem in abolishing these laws.


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## EjazR

dabong1 said:


> Thankyou for the breakdown........but i think my opinion holds true that the muslims dont want india while the hindus do.



Well the issue is that only the valley muslims want indepednance. So its not just muslims, more specifically the valley muslims.

That in a way makes the movement weaker as it is seen as a muslim sepratist movement. Mirwaiz and other realise that and keep insisting that this movement is for all religions but the ground reality is different.


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## somebozo

ironic?? Even the family member dont agree?




> Ali Sofi is said to be close to Mustafa Kamal, former minister and uncle of *Chief Minister Omar Abdullah.*


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## EjazR

Just a reminder to those who think that police don't kill rioters in shoot to kill under curfews in other parts of India. In KAshmir you have thousands of massive protests in 2008 and still casualty count was lower there as compared to other parts in India.

This is a nation wide problem and not restricted to Kashmir. Maybe world should also show concern of the many more Gujjars, AP residents e.t.c. killed in police firing as well?

*The Hindu : Front Page : Srinagar Army deployment driven by panic?*


> *National problem*
> 
> Fatalities caused by police firing have been far fewer in Jammu and Kashmir than in many other States less threatened by large-scale protests. Police in Uttar Pradesh killed 104 civilians and injured 145 in 608 incidents of police firing in 2008. Maharashtra reported 47 civilian deaths in 89 incidents of police firing.
> 
> Police in several States, the data shows, are more likely than their Jammu and Kashmir counterparts to open fire to kill. In 2007, 30 civilians were killed in Andhra Pradesh in 45 incidents of police firing; eight died in Jammu and Kashmir in 47 incidents. Back in 2006, the Andhra Pradesh police killed 72 civilians in 79 incidents of firing, while 138 Chhattisgarh residents were shot dead in 213 incidents.
> 
> Part of the problem, experts say, lies in deteriorating riot-control skills. &#8220;Indian police forces,&#8221; notes the New Delhi-based Institute for Conflict Management's Ajai Sahni, &#8220;used to be internationally regarded for their crowd control skills. Police managing agitations in Punjab or Assam quite routinely dispersed crowds of tens of thousands of people without opening fire.&#8221;
> 
> &#8220;The fact that police forces across the country are using lethal force to disperse a few hundred people throwing stones,&#8221; Mr. Sahni argues, &#8220;shows something has gone badly wrong.&#8221;

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## notsuperstitious

Well since pro India leaders were in the mob, this proves the mob was incited by the Koran rumors and was NOT anti India 

What a waste of life.

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## civfanatic

Patrician said:


> What part of my proof did you not understand my friend?
> 
> I said "India is willing to kill is many required to preserve its territorial integrity"
> 
> My proof is 'logic' and if you still do not understand then let me elaborate:
> 
> 1. India has enormous amount of resources at its disposal.
> 2. India has a huuuuuge military at its command to keep Kashmir firmly under Indian control
> 3. India has world opinion going for it in the current geo-political scenario.
> 4. UN/US/China none of them wants to get into the quagmire of kashmir especially after India proved its relevance during their worst economic crisis after the great depression.
> 5. This is the most important, Indian public and a whole billion plus of them permit their govt. to do whatever it can, I repeat, whatever it can in order to keep Kashmir under firm Indian control.
> 
> Now tell me, what factors do you envisage working for you in this misguided and bungled up battle plan of yours?
> 
> I'm only asking you to change your battle plan since your current one doesn't seem to be working in your favour.
> 
> You will have to learn to compromise.
> 
> Pakistan will have to compromise.
> india will have to compromise.
> 
> No redrawing of borders is going to take place unless:
> 
> 1. India permits so
> 2. Somebody compells India by use of force (read war)
> 
> So in my honest opinion, greater autonomy for Kashmir is the only solution.
> 
> Other than that, there is war. And in war, I do not have to remind you again that which party has nearly unlimited amount of resources at its disposal.
> 
> My friend, its nearly impossible to unseat the power of the state without using open war.
> 
> And nobody is supporting you for open war in the current geo-political-economic scenario.
> 
> So learn to compromise. Fanaticism and loudmouth blabbering will not solve your problem.
> 
> Many of your problems are genuine and most Indians will accept that. Human rights violations must cease and everything including greater autonomy must be grated to kashmir.
> 
> But complete independence from India or even Pakistan for that matter is a far fetched idea which will get you nowhere but only away from ground reality.



Nice to see you accept that India's control of Kashmir is based on power alone . But the two charectetristics of power make it rather unreliable arbiterer ie relativity of power and dynamic nature of power.

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## Patrician

Areesh said:


> Why are you proposing him to post off topic and get banned for it. Don't you like his presence on this forum.
> 
> Anyways you can start separate threads for such issues and the Pakistani members would definitely answer you.



Areesh my friend, no matter how hard we Indians and Pakistanis try but ghoom phir ke baat wahin aa jaati hai dost.

Kashmir is a very emotive issue for all of us.

Every other day there is a new thread, sometimes 2-3 of them, related to the ongoing trouble in Kashmir.

What else do you expect us to say other than not stating the ground reality as it is.

We can't just say RIP and move on you know. This is the fate of every thread on Kashmir and it is quite understandable.

Unless we let go of this deep rooted hatred for each other, it will be impossible for both Indians and Pakistanis to avoid mentioning the root causes and the grond reality again and again.

We have just so much hatred for each other. 

@ mods I'm sorry for it was never my purpose to derail the thread and in fact, deep down I and perhaps everyone knows that this will be the fate of every thread related to kashmir/pakistan/india in every such thread of every such forum on the internet.

We have just so much hatred for each other and that's what saddens me to the core.

Regards

Peace


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## ironman

And who is this Pro India NC ??


Do not target missionary property, control emotions: Geelani​
*Strongly condemning the alleged burning of the Quran in the US, the chairman of the breakaway Hurriyat Conference (HC) Syed Ali Shah Geelani today urged to control their emotions
and not to target the property of Christian missionary in the Kashmir valley*.

''We condemn those involved in setting ablaze the missionary school at Tangmarg,'' Mr Geelani said here this afternoon.

He called upon the people of the Valley to exercise restraint over the alleged desecration of Holy Quran in the United States (US).

''I can understand that emotions of Kashmiri Muslims have been hurt by the desecration of the Holy Quran,'' he said adding at the same time,* we have to control our emotions and not create such a situation which could give a chance to vested interests to defame Islam and our movement.*

In a bid to calm down angry protesters in the Kashmir valley, who took to the streets against this act, Mr Geelani addressed the protesters through telephones in various parts of the Valley.

He said the Quran does not approve of attacks on the minority communities or their establishments.

''I urge the Muslims to protect the members of minority community and their religious places. We should at any cost maintain the age old communal harmony and brotherhood for which Kashmir is known world over,'' he said .

Mr Geelani hailed the role of Christian missionaries in dissemination of education in the valley.

Strongly condemning the desecration, he said such acts show the frustration of US and its allies over the popularity of Islam.

''The Holy Quran is in our hearts. By desecration of Quran, the US has accepted its defeat and shown its cowardice,'' he added.

http://news.webindia123.com/news/Articles/India/20100913/1586321.html


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## Patrician

civfanatic said:


> Nice to see you accept that India's control of Kashmir is based on power alone . But the two charectetristics of power make it rather unreliable arbiterer ie relativity of power and dynamic nature of power.



LoL you forgot to read the point which I emphasized upon the most. let me rephrase it for you.

Indian GoI has power because Indian people have given it that power to retain Kashmir come what may.

Power is only an effect. Will of the indian people (including many of those in J&K) is the cause.

Power stems from the will to exercise it. 

Power is not the cause, will and support of the people is.


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## EjazR

civfanatic said:


> Nice to see you accept that India's control of Kashmir is based on power alone . But the two charectetristics of power make it rather unreliable arbiterer ie relativity of power and dynamic nature of power.



Well the valley certainly has sepratist sentiments, I dont think anyone denies that. But you still have Jammu and LAdakh that together comprise almost 45% of the popilation of the state that have no problem with India. Would the valley people be alright with just an indepedant valley region?
And remeber Pakistan and China are completely against an independant J&K.

I care for the Kashmir people and my heart goes out to the pain they are suffering and IMO the best possible solution would be within the Indian union. This is my opinion ofcourse and many people might not agree to it. 
I hope that all parties involved see sense and get down to negotiations for a final resolution. You might want to fully read this article as well.
*Peace In Kashmir By Maulana Wahiduddin Khan*

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## Areesh

ironman said:


> And who is this Pro India NC ??
> 
> 
> Do not target missionary property, control emotions: Geelani​
> *Strongly condemning the alleged burning of the Quran in the US, the chairman of the breakaway Hurriyat Conference (HC) Syed Ali Shah Geelani today urged to control their emotions
> and not to target the property of Christian missionary in the Kashmir valley*.
> 
> ''We condemn those involved in setting ablaze the missionary school at Tangmarg,'' Mr Geelani said here this afternoon.
> 
> He called upon the people of the Valley to exercise restraint over the alleged desecration of Holy Quran in the United States (US).
> 
> ''I can understand that emotions of Kashmiri Muslims have been hurt by the desecration of the Holy Quran,'' he said adding at the same time,* we have to control our emotions and not create such a situation which could give a chance to vested interests to defame Islam and our movement.*
> 
> In a bid to calm down angry protesters in the Kashmir valley, who took to the streets against this act, Mr Geelani addressed the protesters through telephones in various parts of the Valley.
> 
> He said the Quran does not approve of attacks on the minority communities or their establishments.
> 
> ''I urge the Muslims to protect the members of minority community and their religious places. We should at any cost maintain the age old communal harmony and brotherhood for which Kashmir is known world over,'' he said .
> 
> Mr Geelani hailed the role of Christian missionaries in dissemination of education in the valley.
> 
> Strongly condemning the desecration, he said such acts show the frustration of US and its allies over the popularity of Islam.
> 
> ''The Holy Quran is in our hearts. By desecration of Quran, the US has accepted its defeat and shown its cowardice,'' he added.
> 
> http://news.webindia123.com/news/Articles/India/20100913/1586321.html



And the point of your post is that the hard line freedom fighters asked the people to not to burn missionary schools while on the other hand Govt supported parties were busy in arson of the schools.

Right?


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## ironman

Areesh said:


> And the point of your post is that the hard line freedom fighters asked the people to not to burn missionary schools while on the other hand Govt supported parties were busy in arson of the schools.
> 
> Right?



You made my day..


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## EjazR

FYI,
GoI condemened the Quran burning plans

*India condemns Quran burning move in the US*


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## doctor_who

uneducated and unaware youth is forced in-to this act. 

these people have no clue whats right and wrong for them. all these propaganda rumor started from outside the country is the main monster eating these poor people.


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## bandit

Areesh said:


> And the point of your post is that the hard line freedom fighters asked the people to not to burn missionary schools while on the other hand Govt supported parties were busy in arson of the schools.
> 
> Right?



Yeah, the government first told them to burn the schools and then shot them; that what you trying to say?


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## Areesh

ironman said:


> You made my day..



Anything else you want to share.


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## civfanatic

EjazR said:


> Well the valley certainly has sepratist sentiments, I dont think anyone denies that. But you still have Jammu and LAdakh that together comprise almost 45% of the popilation of the state that have no problem with India. Would the valley people be alright with just an indepedant valley region?
> And remeber Pakistan and China are completely against an independant J&K.
> 
> I care for the Kashmir people and my heart goes out to the pain they are suffering and IMO the best possible solution would be within the Indian union. This is my opinion ofcourse and many people might not agree to it.
> I hope that all parties involved see sense and get down to negotiations for a final resolution. You might want to fully read this article as well.
> *Peace In Kashmir By Maulana Wahiduddin Khan*


Wahidudun Khan as always is annectodal .Wahiduddin Khans narration of an stray incidence has nothing to do with any Islamic content to his political views . Whatever he wrote in above is a political judgment and has nothing to do with his Islamic scholarship and His political judgement is very suspect .As I have said earlier the only case India has in Kashmir is naked power and if Wahidudin Khan wants to peddle this power as something else It speaks much more about him than our struggle .
It is also strange that rather than cuationing his own government in delhi he cuations people in Kashmir and Pakistan .

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## Patrician

civfanatic said:


> Wahidudun Khan as always is annectodal .Wahiduddin Khans narration of an stray incidence has nothing to do with any Islamic content to his political views . Whatever he wrote in above is a political judgment and has nothing to do with his Islamic scholarship and His political judgement is very suspect .As I have said earlier the only case India has in Kashmir is naked power and if Wahidudin Khan wants to peddle this power as something else It speaks much more about him than our struggle .
> It is also strange that rather than cuationing his own government in delhi he cuations people in Kashmir and Pakistan .



You didn't read my post in response to your 'power'ful logic?


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## civfanatic

bandit said:


> Yeah, the government first told them to burn the schools and then shot them; that what you trying to say?



Nineteen people were not killed at one place ...North Kashmir 8
Cental kashmir 7 
South Kashmir 4 ...

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## civfanatic

Patrician said:


> LoL you forgot to read the point which I emphasized upon the most. let me rephrase it for you.
> 
> Indian GoI has power because Indian people have given it that power to retain Kashmir come what may.
> 
> Power is only an effect. Will of the indian people (including many of those in J&K) is the cause.
> 
> Power stems from the will to exercise it.
> 
> Power is not the cause, will and support of the people is.



Let me rephrase voilence + will(of indian elite ) =power


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## bandit

civfanatic said:


> Nineteen people were not killed at one place ...North Kashmir 8
> Cental kashmir 7
> South Kashmir 4 ...



That wasn't the point he was crudely trying to make, he implied government supported group burnt down the school.

Do you agree with him?


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## foxbat

Omar1984 said:


> You think someone deserves to be killed because they speak out and protest? You think someone deserves to be killed because they are Kashmiri Muslims? You think someone deserves to be killed because they belong to a region of the subcontinent (where they live and belong and where their roots began) and want something else for their land than someone from gujrat or tamil nadu?
> 
> 
> This kind of attitude from indians is the reason why so many people are demanding freedom and independence in India Occupied Kashmir.



Let me simplify this.

Anyone who attacks sec forces with rocks in a curfewed area deserves to be killed. Rest of your statements are no better than a rant..


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## Isaq Khan

civfanatic said:


> Church was burned by Pro India NC
> 
> *At least 17 people were killed and 131 injured today in different parts of the Valley when securitymen opened fire to break up violent protests, triggered by reports of the alleged desecration of the Koran in the United States.* The demonstrations quickly turned into anti-government protests and mobs  police said at least one was led by a leader of the ruling National Conference who was later booked  torched a Christian missionary school and government buildings.
> 
> Valley fires rage, Omar feels the Delhi chill




Read the news again and try to use ur brain:

1. These were protests against the "burning of Quran" so obviously they were agitated people who get provoked by some radicals and burned the school.

2. Each and every pakistani newspaper and website were jumping up and down with the claims that 17 people gets killed in firing but no one reports that these were to save Christians and public from getting killed by mad mobs provoked by sepratists.


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## foxbat

Omar1984 said:


> Oh yea then lets kill those who protest. Is that what democracy is all about? Killing those who protest. If you think that way, then you dont know the first thing about democracy. Freedom is everyone's right in every democracy.



democracy is about the rule of majority(view and not religion before you jump on that) . And majority is calculated by looking at the complete population of the country and not a subset. If subsets are allowed, then I can declare my house as a separate country since I have majority in my support in my house 

And those who do not conform to the majority opinion can express protest as long as it stays peaceful. Once it becomes a riot, the strong arm of law has to crush it. Thats what you are seeing in Kashmir. And also in Hissar (Haryana) where 2 rioters were killed today for attacking the LEOs. 

Anyway, it was rich getting a lecture on democracy from a Pakistani where democracy has never survived a sustained stint..

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## Areesh

Isaq Khan said:


> Read the news again and try to use ur brain:
> 
> 1. These were protests against the "burning of Quran" so obviously they were agitated people who get provoked by some radicals and burned the school.
> 
> 2. Each and every pakistani newspaper and website were jumping up and down with the claims that 17 people gets killed in firing but no one reports that these were to save Christians and public from getting killed by mad mobs provoked by sepratists.



Yeh aik aur aa gaya. Even all the news in the first post says otherwise he is continuing with his rant. 

---------- Post added at 01:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:12 PM ----------




bandit said:


> Yeah, the government first told them to burn the schools and then shot them; that what you trying to say?



Read the links provided by first a Kashmiri and than a bharati and you would understand what I am trying to say.


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## Areesh

civfanatic said:


> Wahidudun Khan as always is annectodal .Wahiduddin Khan&#8217;s narration of an stray incidence has nothing to do with any Islamic content to his political views . Whatever he wrote in above is a political judgment and has nothing to do with his Islamic scholarship and His political judgement is very suspect .As I have said earlier the only case India has in Kashmir is naked power and if Wahidudin Khan wants to peddle this power as something else It speaks much more about him than our struggle .
> It is also strange that rather than cuationing his own government in delhi he cuations people in Kashmir and Pakistan .



It would be bit offtopic but is he the same Waheed uddin Khan who has some strange/distorted beliefs religious wise. Am I correct bro?


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## Devil Soul



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## Devil Soul



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## faisaljaffery

Indian forces have killed more then 100,000 innocent Kashmiri people... who is responsible for their death?? The day has come when Kashmiris will take revenge for this blood shed. Its better for india to resolve the issue peacefully other wise current situation will lead to a gurriella war, which will prove fatal for inda and india will lose its alledgely occupied territory.


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## Patrician

faisaljaffery said:


> Indian forces have killed more then 100,000 innocent Kashmiri people... who is responsible for their death?? The day has come when Kashmiris will take revenge for this blood shed. Its better for india to resolve the issue peacefully other wise current situation *will lead to a gurriella war*, which will prove fatal for inda and india will lose its alledgely occupied territory.



In case you just opened your eyes into the world, we have been fighting the guerrilla war for more than two decades now and do I need to remind you who has paid the biggest price of this war?

@On Topic,

Do you have a plan or is this yet again one of those regular la-la land Utopian world view of yours?

By the way, do read my earlier posts before replying to me and save me the labor of typing so much for you once again.

Regards,
Peace


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## Valiant_Soul

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> More nonsense - how on earth does that passage change the fact that you have no justification for calling Junagadh's accession to Pakistan 'illegal and immoral', or the fact that the Maharajah was already fighting a rebellion against his dictatorial and discriminatory rule in Kashmir, BEFORE the Tribal's entered the conflict.



Before you accuse India of double standards, please be informed of the pretexts of these events. Read this(from Wikipedia):



> The Muslim Nawab of Junagadh, Muhammad Mahabat Khanji III, whose ancestors had ruled Junagadh and small principalities for some two hundred years, decided that Junagadh should become part of Pakistan, much to the displeasure of the people of the state, an overwhelming majority of whom were Hindus. The Nawab acceded to the Dominion of Pakistan on 15 August 1947. Pakistan accepted this on 13 September. *When Pakistan confirmed the acceptance of the accession in September, the Government of India was outraged that Muhammad Ali Jinnah could accept the accession of Junagadh despite his argument that Hindus and Muslims could not live as one nation.*[1] Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel believed that if Junagadh was permitted to go to Pakistan, it would exacerbate the communal tension already simmering in Gujarat.
> 
> The princely state was surrounded on all three sides by India, with an outlet to the Arabian Sea. The unsettled conditions in Junagadh had led to a cessation of all trade with India and the food position became precarious. The region was in crisis and the Nawab was forced to flee to Karachi with his family fearing for his life and established a provisional government with his followers.



Now if you think we should put the same logic to Kashmir, then FYI we did, and agreed to a plebiscite. But it never happened due to mis-adventures of Pakistan. Pakistan never kept its side of promise for the plebiscite to happen.

Read this (from Wikipedia as well):



> Ranbir Singh's grandson Hari Singh had ascended the throne of Kashmir in 1925 and was the reigning monarch at the conclusion of British rule in the subcontinent in 1947. As a part of the partition process, both countries had agreed that the rulers of princely states would be given the right to opt for either Pakistan or India or  in special cases  to remain independent. In 1947, Kashmir's population was 77% Muslim and it shared a boundary with Pakistan. On 20 October 1947, tribesmen backed by Pakistan invaded Kashmir.[5] The Maharaja initially fought back but on 27 October appealed for assistance to the Governor-General Louis Mountbatten, who agreed on the condition that the ruler accede to India.[6] Once the papers of accession to India were signed, Indian soldiers entered Kashmir with orders to stop any further occupation, but they were not allowed to expel anyone from the state. India took the matter to the United Nations.
> 
> *The UN resolution asked Pakistan to vacate the areas it has occupied and asked India to assist the U.N. Plebiscite Commission to organize a plebiscite to determine the will of the people. Pakistan refused to vacate the occupied areas.*


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## indian_reality

What US public(not govt) thinks of Pakistan is clear from the tepid response from US media and public donations to the Pakistan floods. Fact though unfortunate.


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## EjazR

civfanatic said:


> Wahidudun Khan as always is annectodal .Wahiduddin Khans narration of an stray incidence has nothing to do with any Islamic content to his political views . Whatever he wrote in above is a political judgment and has nothing to do with his Islamic scholarship and His political judgement is very suspect .As I have said earlier the only case India has in Kashmir is naked power and if Wahidudin Khan wants to peddle this power as something else It speaks much more about him than our struggle .
> It is also strange that rather than cuationing his own government in delhi he cuations people in Kashmir and Pakistan .



Did you even read the article?

The article has less to do with ISlam and more to do with the progress and peaceful resolution of KAshmir dispute. Just because his sound arguments do not mesh with your understanding does not mean his points are not valid.

At the end of the day, who has suffered more because of the dispute, the Kashmiri people or GoI? Who is suferring more right now? That is the bottom line he is addressing.

People think that India will leave Kashmir like the US left Vietnam, Russia left AFghanistan e.t.c but the situation is more akin to Chinese in Xinjiang where not only do the Chinese consider it strategic but the population comprises of less than 4% of the total Chinese population. The 4.5 million valley KAshmiris dont even comprise 1% of the Indian population and without the Indian electorate on your side you will not get indepedance constitutionally. Making the movement religious in colour and anti-Hindu alienates the electorate even further.

Before 1989 there was no army presence so its not like army was there all the time. You should read up on the tribal invasions of Baramulla and the rapes and looting by Tribals from present day FATA in 1948. If you want democratic rights from India you have to first accept that you are citizens of India. You can't ask for democratic rights when you are not willing to even give democracy a chance. 

I don't expect you to convince otherwise, but its something to think about.

I know that in Hyderabad, which use to be the richest independant muslim state in the world pre-1947, after being amalgated with India, there was still sepratist sentiment during the 50s-60s. Infact, when people from UP or other parts of India would come to Hyderabad,the question would "aap Hindustan se aye hai?" or people from that area would be referred to as Hindustanis vs Hyderbadis.

But once peace was restored, the Hyderbadi muslim leaders decided to redefine and accept that the sucess of their community lies with India as long as India fully gurantees freedom of religion to practice and preach; economic oppurtunities were provided and a new generation of Hyderabid muslims came up to grab the oppurtunities, now they have no problem in calling themselves as Indians. 

And it was the Hyderbadi MP Asasuddin Owaisi that raised the voice for Kashmiris in the parliament over the senseless violence in Kashmir.

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## EjazR

Areesh said:


> It would be bit offtopic but is he the same Waheed uddin Khan who has some strange/distorted beliefs religious wise. Am I correct bro?



yes its offtopic but hehas recieved many awards from many religious institutions for ISlamic scholarship including Saudi ones. So your concerns are invalid.

You can find more of his writings here From the Desk of Maulana Wahiduddin Khan | CPS International

You may be surprised to know that even Pakistani based scholars like Maududi have also said that there is no Jihad in Kashmir and subversive war i.e. GoP saying we are not fighting India and then supporting militants is against the principles of Quran and Islam.


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## Areesh

EjazR said:


> yes its offtopic but hehas recieved many awards from many religious institutions for ISlamic scholarship including Saudi ones. So your concerns are invalid.
> 
> You can find more of his writings here From the Desk of Maulana Wahiduddin Khan | CPS International
> 
> You may be surprised to know that even Pakistani based scholars like Maududi have also said that there is no Jihad in Kashmir and subversive war i.e. GoP saying we are not fighting India and then supporting militants is against the principles of Quran and Islam.



Well I would do research about this guy because I have heard some strange things about him. Receiving awards from Saudi govt isn't a certificate for Islam. Anyways about Maududi he wasn't against Kashmiri freedom struggle, all he said was that waging a covert or secret war isn't a jihad. An open war is necessary for the independence of Kashmir. He always considered illegitimate occupation of India as illegitimate and supported struggle against it.

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## back me up

@RollingStones

u better watch your mouth or u will be dubbed as "Indian Agent" or something. 




Omar1984 said:


> I dont know what part of the United States you live in, but here in the Northeastern part of the United States we Pakistanis happily say we are Pakistanis and no one looks down at us. *My relatives have been living in the U.S. since the 1970's. They said they always tell other Americans they are of Pakistani decent and proudly call themselves Pakistani Americans. They are doing extremely well, and are making above $250,000 yearly in their careers. I live in the U.S. and never in my life called myself indian, i would rather die. I ALWAYS TELL AMERICANS THAT I AM A PAKISTANI*.
> 
> And by the way, there is no Pakistani version of Islam just like there is no Bosnian version of Islam or an Indonesian version of Islam. Islam is a religion. Pakistani is a nationality and not all Pakistanis are Muslims. There is a Christian Pakistani family in my neighborhood, and even though they are Christians they proudly tell other Americans that they are Pakistani Americans. There are fundamentalists in every nationality, in every race, in every religion. Pakistan is a nation of 180 million people. There are about 300,000 Pakistanis living in the United States of America many of whom have been living in the United Stes for decades. You will find moderate Pakistanis, liberal Pakistanis, and extremist Pakistanis. Same with Arabs, Iranians, etc...
> 
> I'm pretty sure you are one of those indians pretending to be white. Dont forget to put your fairness cream before you go to bed, maybe then you can go by as a white.



@Omar1984

I dont want to spoil ur anti-india parade, but the fact is, Rolling Stones is right. recent events have forced pakistanis to pretend to be indians to get jobs and stuff.

Not that there is anything wrong with it, but many people take it as an insult.


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## greatsequence

EjazR said:


> More media presence on the Indian side than on the Pakistani side.
> 
> That is why you know about those arrested here while there is no info about similar arrests in Gilgit baltistan e.t.c.



You amuse me. In recent much hyped elections media presence was huge. There is no media blackout in gilgit baltistan no info on the arrests because the dont happen.


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## greatsequence

EjazR said:


> The dispute is the entire historical state of J&K and not just the valley.
> 
> The vally consitutes about 50% of the J&K population, with Jammu and Ladakh together providing the other 50%.
> 
> The valley residents DO NOT want a sepration from Jammu or Ladakh regions for obvious reasons and neither do they want to join Pakistan as per the survey. So making the valley alone independanct or giving it away to Pakistan will not satisfy them.



It seems you forgot Azad kashmir and Gilgit baltistan.


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## civfanatic

bandit said:


> That wasn't the point he was crudely trying to make, he implied government supported group burnt down the school.
> 
> Do you agree with him?



Govt /NC using its influnce to alter/sabotage the nature of movement by indulging in selective arson . The protests overwhelmingly were against India and India used qurann burning incident to its advantage .

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## civfanatic

EjazR said:


> Did you even read the article?
> 
> The article has less to do with ISlam and more to do with the progress and peaceful resolution of KAshmir dispute. Just because his sound arguments do not mesh with your understanding does not mean his points are not valid.
> 
> At the end of the day, who has suffered more because of the dispute, the Kashmiri people or GoI? Who is suferring more right now? That is the bottom line he is addressing.
> 
> People think that India will leave Kashmir like the US left Vietnam, Russia left AFghanistan e.t.c but the situation is more akin to Chinese in Xinjiang where not only do the Chinese consider it strategic but the population comprises of less than 4&#37; of the total Chinese population. The 4.5 million valley KAshmiris dont even comprise 1% of the Indian population and without the Indian electorate on your side you will not get indepedance constitutionally. Making the movement religious in colour and anti-Hindu alienates the electorate even further.
> 
> Before 1989 there was no army presence so its not like army was there all the time. You should read up on the tribal invasions of Baramulla and the rapes and looting by Tribals from present day FATA in 1948. If you want democratic rights from India you have to first accept that you are citizens of India. You can't ask for democratic rights when you are not willing to even give democracy a chance.
> 
> I don't expect you to convince otherwise, but its something to think about.
> 
> I know that in Hyderabad, which use to be the richest independant muslim state in the world pre-1947, after being amalgated with India, there was still sepratist sentiment during the 50s-60s. Infact, when people from UP or other parts of India would come to Hyderabad,the question would "aap Hindustan se aye hai?" or people from that area would be referred to as Hindustanis vs Hyderbadis.
> 
> But once peace was restored, the Hyderbadi muslim leaders decided to redefine and accept that the sucess of their community lies with India as long as India fully gurantees freedom of religion to practice and preach; economic oppurtunities were provided and a new generation of Hyderabid muslims came up to grab the oppurtunities, now they have no problem in calling themselves as Indians.
> 
> And it was the Hyderbadi MP Asasuddin Owaisi that raised the voice for Kashmiris in the parliament over the senseless violence in Kashmir.



I already mentioned in previous post that it is his political judgement so how did you guess that i thought it was anything related to Islam . Before tribals came RSS and maharaja had already killed around half a million jammu muslims . Tribals came at insistance of jammu muslims and since they were not regular soldiers some indiscipline was inevitable . 
If something worked for hyderabad muslims doesn't neccesariy mean it works for Kashmiri Muslims too. Diffrent place, Diffrent climate , Diffrent political attitudes . However your rosy picture of hyderabad muslims isn't entirely correct . Muslims in Hyderabad predominantly live in Prosperous ghetto of Mehdipattanam or in old hyderabad .If things were such ghee shakar bw muslims and hindus there would have been no need for these Ghettos .I have been to hyderabad few times and have found upon interaction with muslims there the siege mentality (my personal opinion might be biased).However if hyderabads muslims feel safe and comfortable I feel happy for them but at the same time I think they should not advise us about our politics .
Im sure you don't vote for MIM ...Waheedudin Types don't . If anybody in your extended family is MIM worker then say my thanks to him for voting Owaisi Sahab .

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## Omar1984

civfanatic said:


> Voilent Protests ?
> 
> YouTube - Protest in Bomai sopore In Kashmir



Thanks for posting this video brother.

Disgusting to see indians in this forum supporting the murder of innocent Kashmiri protestors.


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## Omar1984

*India-held Kashmir is an open prison house 
​*
Kashmir is the oldest and most intractable disputes in the world. Forcible occupation of two-third Kashmir by Indian forces in 1947 against the wishes of Kashmiris impelled freedom fighters and Pak troops to get Kashmir freed from its stranglehold. When India saw that it was on the verge of losing the battle, it sought intervention of United Nations. United Nations Security Council (UNSC) Resolution of 21 April 1948 clearly states that the question of accession of Jammu and Kashmir (J&K) to India or Pakistan should be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite. Subsequent UNSC Resolutions reiterated the same stand. United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan (UNCIP) Resolutions of 3 August 1948 and 5 January 1949 reinforced UNSC Resolutions. 

However, despite Nehru&#8217;s repeated pledges that right of self determination will be given to the people of Kashmir, Indian leaders have mulishly held on to their uncompromising stance that Kashmir is an integral part of India. In defiance of UN Resolutions, they sing this song ad nauseam ignoring the fact that Kashmir is an internationally recognized disputed territory and Kashmiris hate them and long to join Pakistan. They get highly disturbed when Pakistan or any other country reminds them of this hard reality. They are fuming ever since China has started treating Indian officials serving in disputed territory accordingly. 

After 2008 manipulated state elections in J&K, Indian leaders had proudly claimed that majority of Kashmiris were least interested in violence and had accepted Kashmir as part of Indian Union. They declared that armed insurgency had for the most part been successfully crushed, cross border movement from Pakistan effectively blocked and Kashmir was no more an issue. Drums are beaten by Indian leaders after every stage-managed election held under shadow of guns and boycotted by majority that a popular mandate has been won from people of Kashmir. 

Indians forget that neither military force had ever quelled popular movements nor military occupation justified. Who doesn&#8217;t know that Indian intelligence agencies have had a big role in shaping phony political parties and politicians having no roots in the masses, holding fraudulent elections and installing puppet regimes detested by the people? 

No sooner these tall claims were made the whole Kashmir valley resounded with chants of &#8216;Azadi&#8217;, following Amarnath Shrine Board dispute in summer of 2008 which coalesced into a massive nonviolent uprising. Tens of thousands of unarmed protestors from all walks of life with placards in their hands defied gun totting security forces and marched through the streets of Srinagar protesting against state atrocities and injustices. Instead of redressing their grievances, Indian forces fired indiscriminately at the crowds. Volleys were fired not to scare and disperse the crowds but to kill innocent people since value of a Muslim Kashmiri is no better than a sewer ***. One of the reasons behind enacting Mumbai drama on 26/11 was to deflect the attention of the world from Kashmir and to exert pressure on Pakistan to stay out of it.

Another round of protest marches led by young people triggered in summer of 2009. This flare up coincided with unfolding of vicious propaganda war against Pakistan Army from August 2009 onwards. It was alleged that Pak Army had committed large-scale human rights violations in Swat. Stories about unearthing of mass graves, bodies found dumped along roadsides carrying marks of torture, corpses found with hands tied behind backs, and some corpses beheaded were splashed. Western media and RAW cultivated writers in Pakistan backed up the theme and series of articles appeared in local and international print media. Idea of this false projection was to cover up brutality of Indian forces against unarmed adolescent Kashmiris. 

Making good use of their draconian laws they pickup slogan chanting young men on charges of arson, torture them in secret dens and later kill them in fake encounters. This gory practice of missing persons and fake encounters has been going on since triggering of armed resistance in late 1989. Since then, Indian forces have been killing Kashmiris like flies. Figure of missing persons run in thousands, while number of killed persons has overshot 100,000. Hardly any missing person has rejoined his family. Each fake encounter is presented as a clash with armed militants and those shooting the handcuffed prisoners are rewarded for bravery. Huge numbers of unmarked mass graves and marked graves stand witness to the atrocities of Indian security forces. 

Besides killing every able bodied person or maiming them for life through torture, **** is being used as a weapon to break the will of the Kashmiris. Thousands of women and young girls have been raped. There have been numerous incidents of gang **** reported by Amnesty International (AI) and NGOs. AI has reported criminal activities of police and Indian security forces and has also reported that almost every house in Kashmir has been traumatized. They are living in a prison house and are being constantly punished on account of asking for right of self determination.

Their miseries are never ending since they can neither escape from the open prison nor their cries can be heard by the world. Biased US and Western media, think tanks and NGOs have remained mum over massive abuses of human rights occurring in Kashmir and in Gaza since perpetrators of crimes are non-Muslims and victims are Muslims. Instead of coming to the rescue of the bereaved, the US and western world are patronizing and encouraging India ruled by devilish Brahman rulers to continue with their reign of terror and cleanse the erstwhile paradise on earth now turned into hell from the presence of Muslims. India and Israel are two sides of the same coin and qualify to be declared terrorist states because of their callousness and barbarism but are treated as darlings by Christian world since Muslims are their common enemies. 

Indian Police and paramilitary forces deal with the protesters under non-bailable Public Safety Act 1978 (PSA), which authorize them to arrest anyone on a flimsy charge, award two-year imprisonment through court and re-arrest the accused upon release. Even freedom of expression and right to protest peacefully is declared a crime. PSA is applied on minors as well. There were large numbers of cases where adults and minors were arrested and re-arrested several times under PSA. Apart from black law of PSA, Indian Army has license to kill without fear of accountability under Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA). Security forces have never bothered about human rights violations since their gruesome acts are shielded by their political government, psychological warfare, USA and western world.

Indian forces are not differentiating between armed freedom fighters and unarmed protesters resorting to nonviolent means to seek freedom. They are applying black laws on teenagers with equal impunity. Massive crackdowns have been unleashed; shoot at sight orders given and Kashmiri leaders&#8217; house arrested to stifle protests. Continuing with its past practice of blaming Pakistan whenever Kashmiris raised their voice against India&#8217;s atrocities, India promptly blamed Pakistan that it was instigating the teenagers. It alleged that cross border movement had increased. 

The new round of protests started in the wake of killing of a student on 11 June. Stone-pelters have introduced a new phenomenon of resistance against which Indian military has no solution other than resorting to old method of brutal force. Soldiers and police are so fond of firing indiscriminately that they automatically aim at chest and above not realizing that protesters are teenagers carrying stones in their fists. Their hearts does not soften even when they see small boys as young as 8-10 years writhing in pain after getting hit by bullets. It is worth noting that in all the protests since mid 2008, not a single Indian policeman or soldier got killed at the hands of protesters. 

India is flabbergasted and doesn&#8217;t know how to justify its high-handed actions against youngsters and how to project them as terrorists. It can no more shed crocodile tears that it is victim of terrorism. Indian leaders have now started to whisper that stones are made in Pakistan and provided by ISI which are lethal and a threat to world security. 

An increasing number of women moved by the extraordinary motivation of youngsters have joined them and are talking part in demonstrations enthusiastically. Hundreds of women and girls, some carrying sticks and stones, are seen regularly out in the streets chanting &#8216;we want freedom&#8217;, and &#8216;blood for blood&#8217;. Participation of women has added yet another dilemma for the police and paramilitary forces struggling to control protests. 

Since 11 June 65 persons have been killed. Ignoring daily deaths of small boys aged between 8 and 17 years at the hands of Indian troops, Manmohan Singh tried to appease agitating Kashmiris by offering dialogue on autonomy and an economic package and rhetorically assuring them that there will be &#8216;zero tolerance&#8217; for human rights violations. Mirwaiz rejected his offer and said that autonomy was not a solution to Kashmir issue. He said that no solution is acceptable to Kashmiris other than freedom.

He demanded revocation of AFSPA, PSA, Disturbed Areas Act (DAA), and withdrawal of armed forces. Anger of the younger generation in Kashmir can no longer be doused through hypocritical rhetoric or even by pep talk of elder Kashmiri leaders. They are determined to break the walls of prison house and breathe freely. 

Pakistan is equally determined to find a just solution to this chronic dispute. No amount of RAW sponsored pressures in the form of target killings in Karachi and Balochistan, suicide attacks in Lahore and elsewhere and building of dams on rivers would dilute affections of Pakistanis for Kashmiris. India must understand that if it is really worried about terrorism and is sincerely aspiring for peace as is being preached by Aman ki Asha preachers, without resolution of Kashmir dispute this objective is next to impossible.

Asian Tribune-


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## Omar1984

*Pakistan condemns violence in held Kashmir​*
Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi has called for the solution of Kashmir issue as per the resolutions passed by the United Nations. In a statement issued by the foreign office in Islamabad Qureshi criticised use of blatant violence by Indian security forces in occupied Kashmir. Qureshi referred to the ongoing situation in held Jammu and Kashmir territory and said the violence by Indian security forces had resulted in the loss of scores of innocent lives since June. Qureshi's comments came a day after 17 people, including a policeman, were killed and over 70 injured in violence in the occupied territory.

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## Gazzi

I believe Pakistani ethnicity politicians here in the UK are seeking legal advice with regards to taking up the case in the Internatioanl courts of human rights and accuse India of War Crimes and ethnic cleansing for the past few decades. 

I have raised my concerns with regards to actions by the Indian security services, whereby it cannot be justified or the minimum use of force which is reasonable to shoot protesters who are pelting stones. 

Wait and see................hopefully legal advisers will be anouncing something soon huh!!!!!

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## civfanatic

Omar1984 said:


> *Pakistan condemns violence in held Kashmir​*
> Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi has called for the solution of Kashmir issue as per the resolutions passed by the United Nations. In a statement issued by the foreign office in Islamabad Qureshi criticised use of blatant violence by Indian security forces in occupied Kashmir. Qureshi referred to the ongoing situation in held Jammu and Kashmir territory and said the violence by Indian security forces had resulted in the loss of scores of innocent lives since June. Qureshi's comments came a day after 17 people, including a policeman, were killed and over 70 injured in violence in the occupied territory.



If Pakistan wants to help us they must raise this up in UN and OIC

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## DGMO

civfanatic said:


> If Pakistan wants to help us they must raise this up in UN and OIC


I'm afraid you're mislead if you think this will get you anywhere.

The UN will do nothing, because the P5 don't have a desire to get involved. 

And what is the OIC? If they can't close ranks and be effective when it comes to Palestine then you can forget Kashmir. They're a pointless and powerless organisation which has no sway on what India does.

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## Omar1984

DGMO said:


> I'm afraid you're mislead if you think this will get you anywhere.
> 
> The UN will do nothing, because the P5 don't have a desire to get involved.
> 
> And what is the OIC? If they can't close ranks and be effective when it comes to Palestine then you can forget Kashmir. They're a pointless and powerless organisation which will have no sway on what India does.



Pakistan must try its best. Reading the posts from indian members in this forum and other forums shamelessly saying Kashmiris deserve to be killed and not a single indian showing any sympathy for Kashmiris except for Arundhati Roy (who was labelled as a traitor by the indian public for her support to Kashmiri people), imagine what will happen to the Kashmiri people and the future generations of Kashmiris.

Pakistan is involved. We are talking about a disputed territory between Pakistan and india. If Pakistan wont speak up for the Kashmiri people, then who will?

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## civfanatic

DGMO said:


> I'm afraid you're mislead if you think this will get you anywhere.
> 
> The UN will do nothing, because the P5 don't have a desire to get involved.
> 
> And what is the OIC? If they can't close ranks and be effective when it comes to Palestine then you can forget Kashmir. They're a pointless and powerless organisation which has no sway on what India does.


It does not matter whether that is effective or not . It will make international community and muslim countries aware of what is happening in Kashmir .These are important international forums and Pakistan bieng a soveriegn state has acess to them while our leadership does not have .

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## DGMO

Omar1984 said:


> Pakistan must try its best. Reading the posts from indian members in this forum and other forums shamelessly saying Kashmiris deserve to be killed and not a single indian showing any sympathy for Kashmiris except for Arundhati Roy (who was labelled as a traitor by the indian public for her support to Kashmiri people), imagine what will happen to the Kashmiri people and the future generations of Kashmiris.
> 
> Pakistan is involved. We are talking about a disputed territory between Pakistan and india. If Pakistan wont speak up for the Kashmiri people, then who will?


Omar, Pakistan has been speaking up for Kashmiri's, and was doing so when things were even worse. 

But the question you and everyone else needs to ask is: Has it helped find a solution to the problems? The answer is no. 

This has gone beyond speaking up. It's now about solutions, but we're not in control of that. This is an issue on the Indian side, we're powerless to do anything.

It's up to India to show some sort of courage, do away with their foot-dragging and internal fractious positions to deal with the situation.

Until then, we're all spectators. When they say it's an internal matter, then it really is. The problem for them is that with so much blood spilt, and continuing to be spilt, the positions of the separatists and the common man are hardening. However, that is also true for the GoI. All we've seen over the past 2 months is a stalemate.

India is foolish if it thinks this will simply go away with no long-term damage. They're simply alienating another future generation of Kashmiri's, and need to put genie back in the bottle as soon as possible.

However, even Indian members will admit here that Congress is at a loss on how to deal with this situation.

You'd think that the day after 18 Kashmiri's are killed, that emergency meetings will be held around the clock to get to a solution. How strange then that they decide to reconvene a CCS meeting on Wednesday (tomorrow), and not today.

Their handling is not helping and exacerbating an already woeful situation.


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## muse

Once again, boys and girls, it's US duplicity time, While occupation forces have killed more than a dozen young men, the American does not even mention this and hopes to cover up for the occupation forces and the kinds of ideas that have space in the US and in India:
From Dailytimes

US appeals for end to violence 

NEW DELHI: *US Ambassador to India Timothy Roemer has appealed for calm and an end to violence in Indian-held Kashmir and elsewhere, maintaining that the US government and society at large was abhorrent to the individual act of desecration of the holy Quran. He said according to news reports one misguided individual had desecrated the holy book by tearing its pages*. *On behalf of everyone at the US Embassy in India, I condemn such acts as disrespectful, intolerant, divisive, and un-representative of American values. The deliberate destruction of any holy book is an abhorrent act,* he added. He said the act of this individual was not representative of America and American values, believing that these acts were well outside of the American mainstream. Our commitment to religious tolerance and religious freedom goes back to the very beginning of our nation and will continue to be a guiding principle of our country well into the future, he said. *Roemer stressed that Islam had its rightful and equal place at the table in America along with all other religions and always will.* Quoting US President Obama, the US ambassador in a statement said, America and Islam are not exclusive and need not be in competition. Instead, they overlap, and share common principles  principles of justice and progress; tolerance and the dignity of all human beings. One misguided American tearing pages from the holy Quran will not change this - today, tomorrow, or ever. iftikhar gilani


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## DGMO

civfanatic said:


> It does not matter whether that is effective or not . It will make international community and muslim countries aware of what is happening in Kashmir .These are important international forums and Pakistan bieng a soveriegn state has acess to them while our leadership does not have .


Well then it's pointless isn't it? 

Try to understand that raising this at such international fora has been done to death by us. Then try to sit back and ask 'what did or has it achieved?'

What impact will it make? The US spoke up yesterday, sure it did. But that was in response to church burning. Was it to condemn the killing of civilians? No. 

18 people have died on one day, probably the most killed in YEARS, but it stayed on the BBC News front page (a true litmus test of a huge story) for a few hours, and then gone.

Running around and asking countries to condemn 'Indian aggression' has been done before. It's no point looking for diplomatic condemnation when it will make little change to those suffering on the ground - the Kashmiri's.

If Pakistan wishes to use its positive offices, then perhaps it should speak with the APHC, using some backchannels.

But the spotlight falls back on India who will have nothing to do with Pakistan, and are refusing to budge on issues like AFSPA, they have Omar Abdullah looking to quit (he might as well), so we don't hold much sway.

We can condemn, ask others to condemn, but India is in a bind like it hasn't seen for many a year.


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## az.ay

For those Indians who are still in denial that Kashmir is slipping away from their fingers:

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## notsuperstitious

Omar1984 said:


> Pakistan must try its best. Reading the posts from indian members in this forum and other forums shamelessly saying Kashmiris deserve to be killed and not a single indian showing any sympathy for Kashmiris except for Arundhati Roy (who was labelled as a traitor by the indian public for her support to Kashmiri people), imagine what will happen to the Kashmiri people and the future generations of Kashmiris.
> 
> Pakistan is involved. We are talking about a disputed territory between Pakistan and india. If Pakistan wont speak up for the Kashmiri people, then who will?



You are full of lies. We have tremendous sympathy for the policeman who was killed by the protesters, we have sympathy for the users of the church that was destroyed, we have sympathy for any innocents who have died in the violence and we have sympathy for the innocent Kashmiri pundits who have been destroyed thanks to your policy of non state actors. We have no sympathy for anyone who wants to use violence while protesting, thats not protesting, thats rioting, and that applies to everyone, not just Kashmiris.

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## Hulk

Man I feel we are managing it all wrong. I saw the video of people pelting stones police not doing much to stop them. This is highest level of tolerance I agree, but also setting wrong example. If you allow them to do wrong stuff they will get bolder and bolder and will do more. I feel we should have shot them in leg.


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## ice_man

pakistan should stay out of this!!! this is an independent indigenous movement we shouldn't let it get undermined!!! 

our show of involvement will undermine their goals! and indians would start crying pakistan is doing all this! for what benefits only god knows!

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## muse

> to all Pakistani comrades:
> 
> click here
> 
> India forces battle Kashmiri protesters; 15 killed - Yahoo! News
> 
> 
> and comment on it; a lot of the commenters have a distorted view of Islam; and of Pakistan's stance on Kashmir. Even small measures like this can make a difference. I saw many interesting comments on there actually.



Abu Zolfikar


Let the Hindu bigots and the American Bigots alone, let them post all kinds of abuses they want -- because in the end most people are turned off by that and they can see who is the aggressor - let the Indian exercise his "confidence" - it's his weakness.

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## Ganga

SRINAGAR: Jammu and Kashmir Police today registered two cases against unidentified persons for uploading "morphed pictures" on prominent social networking sites to incite people against security forces in the Valley.

A police spokesman said that efforts were on to trace the origin of the video clipping, purportedly showing four men being paraded naked by uniformed personnel in Kashmir, and apprehend the persons responsible for morphing and uploading it.

"Some miscreants are making repeated attempts to upload morphed pictures on YouTube against security forces to incite people. Two cases already stand registered in this connection with the Crime Branch," he said here.

The video clipping first appeared on YouTube and then was widely circulated on Facebook social networking site.

The spokesman said uploading transmission of such pictures is criminal offence punishable under section 66-A of Information Technology Act.

"It is also punishable under Section 505 of Ranbir Panel Code which is a cognizable offence and attracts a rigorous imprisonment for three years and fine," the spokesman said, requesting the general public to cooperate with the government for maintenance of public order.

"The general public is advised not to fall prey to such unverified and baseless rumours. They may dial 100 for any information or assistance," he said.

Kashmir naked parade video: Cases registered for uploading morphed pictures - The Times of India

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## ambidex

Cat dreams of mouse.
India has seen worst than this, has seen people tearing of constitution of India and now taking oath of the same when elected in Power.

If Pakistanis are betting on these crazy Muslims mobs then i have to say that most of you are unaware of the deep and subtle forces at work within this agitation and much more. 
The world is watching this Islamic notoriety.


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## Omar1984

*A changed Kashmir​*
Kashmir is in turmoil but we should note that the situation in the valley has undergone a fundamental change.

We don&#8217;t see any more armed clashes between militants and the army. Rather it&#8217;s now an indigenous freedom movement led by Kashmir&#8217;s younger generation. Every other day scores of teenagers are on the streets chanting anti-Indian slogans and throwing rocks on security forces. The use by Indian forces of live ammunition is the normal reaction to rock-throwing protesters. Death after death of teenagers is not discouraging them but leading to more protests. Clamping curfew is the other measure available with the Indian authorities.

We don&#8217;t find much of the Indian mainstream media and human rights organizations highlighting these abuses committed by security forces. *Now we have to see how they react to the video available on Face Book and YouTube wherein 7 to 8 naked boys are seen being paraded along with people in police and security forces uniforms. In the video one man is constantly instructing the youth not to cover their bodies. In the background, some other policemen could be heard laughing over the boys&#8217; ordeal. Abuses could also be heard in this three-minute long video clip. They appear to be walking through an agricultural field in Sopore, a town Srinagar.

Though Indian Home Minister P. Chidambaram has asked to check the video for its authenticity and identify the persons shown in the video, everyone knows what will be the result of such an inquiry.*

India needs to understand that indigenous movements can&#8217;t be silenced with a show of force and humiliations. The US and Israel may get away with such behavior in occupied territories/countries but India has not yet reached that untouchable status. The world would expect that Indian human rights workers such as Arundhati Roy would come forward to help these unarmed protesters.


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## Ganga

It is really disturbing to see that some miscreants are misusing today's technological advances.


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## Leviza

Shame on Indian Army in kashmir ........

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## Rajput Warrior

Ganga said:


> It is really disturbing to see that some *miscreants are misusing *today's technological advances.



WTF! Its the indians who paraded those boys and somebdy uploaded an authentic video and now they r miscreants? 

Go arrest the indian terrorists who do such things... 18 kashmiris killed yesterday!! who will arrest those .... who murdered the innocent youth?

Also this has been posted before!

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## Omar1984

Indian authorities are too embarassed that their actions have been made public so now they are making up B.S. statements.

[Now we have to see how they react to the video available on Face Book and YouTube wherein 7 to 8 naked boys are seen being paraded along with people in police and security forces uniforms. In the video one man is constantly instructing the youth not to cover their bodies. In the background, some other policemen could be heard laughing over the boys ordeal. Abuses could also be heard in this three-minute long video clip. They appear to be walking through an agricultural field in Sopore, a town Srinagar.

Though Indian Home Minister P. Chidambaram has asked to check the video for its authenticity and identify the persons shown in the video, everyone knows what will be the result of such an inquiry.]

A changed Kashmir - Arab News

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

How is it morphed?

Mature Kashmiri boys forced to walk nude on the road by the indian security - 9-Human Rights - Kash Tube

It appears pretty authentic.


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## civfanatic

DGMO said:


> Well then it's pointless isn't it?
> 
> Try to understand that raising this at such international fora has been done to death by us. Then try to sit back and ask 'what did or has it achieved?'
> 
> What impact will it make? The US spoke up yesterday, sure it did. But that was in response to church burning. Was it to condemn the killing of civilians? No.
> 
> 18 people have died on one day, probably the most killed in YEARS, but it stayed on the BBC News front page (a true litmus test of a huge story) for a few hours, and then gone.
> 
> Running around and asking countries to condemn 'Indian aggression' has been done before. It's no point looking for diplomatic condemnation when it will make little change to those suffering on the ground - the Kashmiri's.
> 
> If Pakistan wishes to use its positive offices, then perhaps it should speak with the APHC, using some backchannels.
> 
> But the spotlight falls back on India who will have nothing to do with Pakistan, and are refusing to budge on issues like AFSPA, they have Omar Abdullah looking to quit (he might as well), so we don't hold much sway.
> 
> We can condemn, ask others to condemn, but India is in a bind like it hasn't seen for many a year.



What do you mean by pointless ? I Think Pakistan can help Kashmir by using its diplomatic offices in highlighting Indian Agresssion in Kashmir . It might not make an absolute diffrence in concrete terms but it will demonstrate its will to stand by Kashmiri people in its hour of need . I know that can have huge psychological impact in kashmir . *Pakistan is moraly bound to help Kashmir in its pursuit of RSD otherwise it becomes occupation power same as India in kashmir *. It is moral obligation on pakistan and need not justified by utilitarian considerations . It is also correct politics as it demonstrates to Kashmiris in Azad Kashmir the seriousness with which it views the plight of their berthern in IOK . I can't agree with your thinking that *fair is foul and foul is fair becuase foul is useful and fair is not *


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## Tuahaa

civfanatic said:


> What do you mean by pointless ? I Think Pakistan can help Kashmir by using its diplomatic offices in highlighting Indian Agresssion in Kashmir . It might not make an absolute diffrence in concrete terms but it will demonstrate its will to stand by Kashmiri people in its hour of need . I know that can have huge psychological impact in kashmir . *Pakistan is moraly bound to help Kashmir in its pursuit of RSD otherwise it becomes occupation power same as India in kashmir *. It is moral obligation on pakistan and need not justified by utilitarian considerations . It is also correct politics as it demonstrates to Kashmiris in Azad Kashmir the seriousness with which it views the plight of their berthern in IOK . I can't agree with your thinking that *fair is foul and foul is fair becuase foul is useful and fair is not *



I agree... Pakistan should help Kashmir, whether it becomes an Independant country or a part of Pakistan. It would be better this way... Kashmir was supposed to be a part of Pakistan (muslim majority rule) but even if they don't, they are still Muslims and have good intentions towards us. But there will be difficulties... the rest of the world will brand us as the bad guys if we speak up as pro-separation of Kashmir from India.


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## somebozo

Where if Kashmiris have the teach to make such realistic morphing then open up and industry and invite all golden birds of hollywood. There is a limit to BS'ing and lying out of teeth!


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## Abasin Turi

ehhh i just saw some kashmiri youth beating up Indian army walas..  
it was such a treat for my eyes..  so dance baby dance for me...


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## Kompromat

Any non Indian source ??


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## ambidex

Their underwears were down


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## mjnaushad

Now the ISI must have paid these boys to walk nude for 500 Rupees....And those around them must be ISI agents

---------- Post added at 07:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:57 PM ----------




ambidex said:


> YouTube - Pakistan Police Justice on ROAD
> 
> Their underwears were down


Same stupid offtopics ......Now if next time i start posted Indian Videos as PAK V INDIA i sure hope you wont mind.....


BTW i can start that here too.


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## deckingraj

Though as per my Indian POV i have very different picture and reasons then yours....I am not saying any one of us is wrong here because i can bet we both have not been taugh the complete truth...Anyways putting myself into Pakistani shoes i have few doubts in your post....Hoping ego and national jingoism will not come in our way to have a meaningful debate



civfanatic said:


> What do you mean by pointless ? I Think Pakistan can help Kashmir by using its diplomatic offices in highlighting Indian Agresssion in Kashmir .



You are wrong in two ways...Let me highlight how...

- International Geo-Politics : From geo-politics POV India is much stonger then what it was a decade ago and Pakistan is weaker then what it was a decade ago. Cameroon recent statements in India is a proof for that...Economically India is much stronger then what is was a decade ago and Pakistan is in shambles with floods adding to the problems.....In short your diplomatic manouvers will not have any/little impact....

- Pakistan Internal Problems : Pakistan has been devasted by the Floods...Economy is not going good and international response has been luke warm.....Terrorism is effecting every corner of Pakistan as we speak, so this is not the right time to go on for diplomatic offensive against New Delhi....This obviously will not go well with New delhi but also with International Community who will question the priority of issues...I am sure Pakistan is higher priority then fruitless campaign about Kashmir, no????



> It might not make an absolute diffrence in concrete terms but it will demonstrate its will to stand by Kashmiri people in its hour of need .


Exactly, when it is not going to make any difference then any diplomatic offense is useless, no??? What's the point of doing lip-service which can't do any good but only harm??? Pakistan has always said they morally support Kashmir so what extra you can achieve by this???




> I know that can have huge psychological impact in kashmir . *Pakistan is moraly bound to help Kashmir in its pursuit of RSD otherwise it becomes occupation power same as India in kashmir *. It is moral obligation on pakistan and need not justified by utilitarian considerations . It is also correct politics as it demonstrates to Kashmiris in Azad Kashmir the seriousness with which it views the plight of their berthern in IOK . I can't agree with your thinking that *fair is foul and foul is fair becuase foul is useful and fair is not *


Already explained it above....You can't combine emotions with Diplomacy, this will be very dangerous and can back fire....Diplomacy is not about being Fair, diplomacy is about serving national interest....

Honestly if you talking about being fair then perhaps you want to ponder over some of these points coming from a person across the border

- India was at its weakest in 1991-1993. We were at eye to eye with Bankruptcy, hardly any geo-politic might ,Terrorirsm in Punjab and kashmir was at its peak, Babari Masjid demolition had rocked the country to its core, definition of terrorism was very different then what it is after 9/11...If in such a sensative time we did not let go Kashmir how on this earth any sensible man can think that now when we are economically strong, far more stable then what we were 2 decades ago, backed with geo-political and military might will stumble now????

- These so called stone throwers are hurting common Kashmiris more then what so called (as alleged) bad guys, no???....Valley is almost shut from quite some time...Just imagine the kind of economic chaos the common man would be who have to earn his bread on daily basis....The hit taken by Biz in Kashmir is going to effect only Kashmiri's and no one else....GOI will not like it but then Kashmir is not our source of income by any stretch of imagination..So who is going to suffer, may i know???

- Whenever there is insurgency issue there will be human rights violation....We have seen this in the past...Sri Lanka effectively got rid of insurgency but by what means we all know...PA is battling in Baloch and they are using all their might....Are we saying there are no human rights violations there???? Mind it i am not justifying human rights violations by IA...All i am saying is that one gives 2 hoots about Kashmiri's....Vested interests are all what matters, and this list includes all those people who are using the sensitive environment to ignite tempers in the valeey...so lets not about Fair and Not Being Fair...However at this stage IMHO pakistan will best serve Kashmir cause(for her own good) to stay out of it....By giving $25 million to Flood hit Pak GOI has taken a bold step...Lets not give hawks on both sides to spoil it...

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## SekrutYakhni

We should do something about this issue.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The silence of the GoP on the Kashmir issue pretty much explains what stance it has taken.

Regardless of the propaganda and nonsense published in the Indian media about the 'ISI sponsoring stone pelters' the facts are that infiltration across the LoC remains at historic lows, as it has for almost a decade now since Musharraf's initiative to try a different tact of resolving the dispute with India, and Pakistan has made almost no attempt to easily exploit a very explosive situation in Kashmir. What little infiltration that occurs has to be accepted given the rugged terrain and the inability of any State to seal off such a demarcation line 100&#37;.

Leave alone covert support for separatists, there has been no diplomatic offensive either, nor was there much of one in the past with the other massive protests in Kashmir.

Quite frankly that reflects Pakistan's intentions to continue engagement with India along the lines of the Musharraf initiative, of not using insurgency to push the issue. It is time now for the Indians, government, media and intelligentsia, to stop scapegoating Pakistan and come to the table to resolve the dispute in a trilateral format that includes the Kashmiris separatists.

The ball is in India's court on this issue.

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## GUNNER

*India Struggles For Response As Kashmir Violence Escalates*

*NEW DELHI, Sept 14, 2010 (AFP)* - Three months since a summer of discontent began, New Delhi is groping for a response in Indian Kashmir, where 87 protesters have died in what many see as a new phase of a 60-year conflict.

A frustrated new generation of stone-throwing Kashmiris has become the focus of resistance to Indian rule, superceding the militants who made the region one of the most dangerous places on Earth in the 1990s.

Speaking to editors last week, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh admitted that the government was unsure of how to respond to an outpouring of anger which has echoes of past Palestinian intifadas.

The government was "groping for a response," he said candidly, according to the Times of India. "But there is no royal road to success. I can't pull a rabbit out of a hat."

Many before him have tried and failed, producing a deadlock that dates back to the partition of the subcontinent in 1947, when the Muslim-majority region was split between India and Pakistan.

It has caused two of the three wars between the rival, nuclear-armed nations and remains an enduring source of tension in South Asia.

Singh, who admits the young people there have "grievances" that need to be addressed, called his cabinet together Monday for a meeting to discuss measures to defuse the tension.

They decided against one widely mooted step -- partially withdrawing unpopular emergency laws that have covered the territory for the last 20 years -- and instead called an all-party meeting of political groups.

Professor Radha Kumar from the independent Delhi Policy Group said there was consternation at the highest level of government, but a lack of direction.

"There is a sense of 'how do we as a democracy deal with this?' That is part of the reason why we have seen such confusion and a sort of paralysis," she told AFP.

For two decades, an anti-Indian insurgency supported by Pakistan raged in Kashmir, claiming 47,000 lives and fuelling attacks in India, most notably a siege at the Indian parliament in 2001 that almost sparked a regional war.

But militancy has since fallen to its lowest level since 1990 and New Delhi estimates there are now merely 500 militants active in the region, a fraction of the thousands previously.

For the first time, more people have died at the hands of the security forces this year than in militant attacks.

The core protesters, mostly young men who use Facebook and YouTube to spread their message, have used stones to provoke the security forces, with many saying they are prepared to die for the cause.

"I think it's the most serious problem confronting New Delhi since the start of insurgency some 20 years ago," says Noor Ahmed Baba, a political science professor at Kashmir's main university.

"The protests are indigenous, mass based and widespread and there is no external element involved," he said.

In New Delhi, the government initially tried to paint the protesters as paid by Pakistan -- the external element -- but most ministers now accept a new narrative in which frustration has reached crisis point.

But what can be done?

Observers agree that police have a duty to protect public property, but many are critical of the use of live ammunition on crowds and the lack of training.

"The police and CRPF (a paramilitary force) have not been equipped with non-lethal weapons and this has caused a lot of unfortunate casualties," said B.G. Verghese, an associate of the Center for Policy Research think-tank.

But better crowd control and job-promoting economic packages -- another of which was proposed by the prime minister in August -- are seen as window dressing on a more profound problem by many in Kashmir.

"India has never treated the people of Kashmir as one among the equals and secondly New Delhi ignored their demand for autonomy," India's chief Muslim cleric Syed Ahmed Bukhari told AFP on Tuesday.

"The population does not want to go with Pakistan and they also cannot tolerate the state-sponsored repression of an entire population," he added.

But granting autonomy would encourage numerous other separatist causes in India and raise fears of the Kashmiri government using its new powers to move closer to Pakistan.

Politically, the ruling Congress party is hemmed in by the main right-wing Hindu opposition which sees any concession to Kashmiri autonomy as a betrayal of the nation.

As a first step, the government could partly repeal the emergency military laws in Kashmir and announce credible investigations into the deaths over the summer, many of which are thought to be the result of disproportionate police action.

Longer term, New Delhi will continue with its policy of seeking dialogue with local separatist political leaders, but opinions are so polarised now that common ground between the two sides has diminished.

"The new effort to have quiet talks (with separatists) and all-party talks is necessary," said Verghese. "Economic development is necessary too, but employment is not the only factor."


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## SekrutYakhni

mjnaushad said:


> Thats theirs habbit....When cant argue....Either start Abusing on extreme level or start posting offtopic videos to start pissing contest.



Where is the admin/mod? It is clearly an off topic post! Is it freedom of speech or freedom of stupidity? 

If I were to compare the incidents, I could easily find numerous videos on both sides. However, Kashmir is a disputed territory and the outcomes of incidents are different there. 

In conclusion, the mod squad should delete the video as it has no relevance whatsoever. 

Take a look from other angle.

Indians consider Kashmir as their own territory, the video can be justified as it is our police on our soil and it is their police on their soil (Kashmir) But are not we missing something? International community regards Kashmir as a disputed territory, not one, two countries but several others. So, the killings are inhumane and the territory is disputed, does not matter which side you belong from.

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## ambidex

saad445566 said:


> ^^
> You did not understand the point. The video you posted is a tragic incident on *local soil.*
> 
> Kashmir is a disputed territory; thus, the incidents there are of different nature and has a different outcome.



Human are humans they do not have a specific barcode if living in disputed or non disputed territories. The only problem here is that every day People from Pakistan IP addresses are posting that video on Youtube with different heading with ''Kashmir'' in it. Unfortunately they can not even prove that they were Muslims or non Muslims (no taunt).

Let me be defensive here and say that no body knows the context behind those naked guys. 
Three guys were paraded naked by Punjab police in 1992 in Chandigarh when caught in a hotel with prostitutes. They were picked up naked while performing the job, to the jeep and then to the chownki.


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## mjnaushad

ambidex said:


> Human are humans they do not have a specific barcode if living in disputed or non disputed territories. The only problem here is that every day People from Pakistan IP addresses are posting that video on Youtube with different heading with ''Kashmir'' in it. Unfortunately they can not even prove that they were Muslims or non Muslims (no taunt).
> 
> Let me be defensive here and say that no body knows the context behind those naked guys.
> Three guys were paraded naked by Punjab police in 1992 in Chandigarh when caught in a hotel with prostitutes. They were picked up naked while performing the job, to the jeep and then to the chownki.


So now you have access to youtube admin account so that you can see from which IP they are being uploaded.


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## ambidex

saad445566 said:


> Where is the admin/mod? It is clearly an off topic post! Is it freedom of speech or freedom of stupidity?
> 
> If I were to compare the incidents, I could easily find numerous videos on both sides. However, Kashmir is a disputed territory and the outcomes of incidents are different there.
> 
> In conclusion, the mod squad should delete the video as it has no relevance whatsoever.
> 
> Take a look from other angle.
> 
> Indians consider Kashmir as their own territory, the video can be justified as it is our police on our soil and it is their police on their soil (Kashmir) But are not we missing something? International community regards Kashmir as a disputed territory, not one, two countries but several others. So, the killings are inhumane and the territory is disputed, does not matter which side you belong from.



Oh..... now it has become disputed territory versus non disputed territory. Last time you were taking about human rights only. 
There is nothing reveling that it has originated from Kashmir.


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## ps80

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> .
> The ball is in India's court on this issue.



Officially, baat kis se karein....ISI se, Kiyani sahab se, Zardari sahab se, or Gilani sahab se....which one would be more effective?

I can only wish my sincere good wishes to the Indian and Pakistani leaders....it's time for some action now, baat bahut ho chuki hai....

Good luck Mr. Qureshi and Mr. Krishna...
PM hopeful on Pak ties, wants Qureshi to visit


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## SekrutYakhni

ambidex said:


> Oh..... now it has become disputed territory versus non disputed territory. Last time you were taking about human rights only.
> There is nothing reveling that it has originated from Kashmir.



*Show me the post where I was ONLY talking about human rights! *

Post the link of the thread!


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## DGMO

civfanatic said:


> What do you mean by pointless ? I Think Pakistan can help Kashmir by using its diplomatic offices in highlighting Indian Agresssion in Kashmir . It might not make an absolute diffrence in concrete terms but it will demonstrate its will to stand by Kashmiri people in its hour of need . I know that can have huge psychological impact in kashmir . *Pakistan is moraly bound to help Kashmir in its pursuit of RSD otherwise it becomes occupation power same as India in kashmir *. It is moral obligation on pakistan and need not justified by utilitarian considerations . It is also correct politics as it demonstrates to Kashmiris in Azad Kashmir the seriousness with which it views the plight of their berthern in IOK . I can't agree with your thinking that *fair is foul and foul is fair becuase foul is useful and fair is not *


You're still missing the point. It has come out and said it stands with Kashmiri's, SMQ has come out with condemnation and uttered the resolution in accordance with UN resolutions etc etc.

And it can visit every capital of the OIC and raise what it likes at the UN, but that won't change diddly squat on the ground.

So in that respect, it's pointless. As has been touched on above, the ball is in India's court. Not only vis-a-vis Pakistan, but also in dealing with the Kashmiri's. At the moment they seem to be rabbits staring at headlights, without any idea or plan to deal or quell the unrest, let alone find a wider solution to the problems of the Valley (which they simply can't run away from in the long run).


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*"There is a sense of 'how do we as a democracy deal with this?'*

That is pretty easy to answer. As a democratic State whose Governor General made final accession conditional to a plebiscite, as a State whose leadership promised the Kashmiris time and time again that they would be able to determine their future through a plebiscite, as a State that committed to a plebiscite in the UNSC to the international community and to the other party to the dispute, Pakistan, as a State that endorsed the idea of plebiscite as paramount in disputed accessions through its own occupation and annexation of Junagadh through plebiscite, India must implement the committed plebiscite in one form or another, resolving both the grievances of the Kashmiris and the dispute with Pakistan in one stroke.

True nations are not built upon forced occupation and annexation of peoples and their lands, true nations are built from various peoples coming together to willingly form a pact of nationhood. India's argument of holding on to Kashmir despite the wishes of its people and its violated commitments is the Colonialist and Nazi vision of a State.


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## SekrutYakhni

*Plebiscite is the only solution. *


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

ps80 said:


> Officially, baat kis se karein....ISI se, Kiyani sahab se, Zardari sahab se, or Gilani sahab se....which one would be more effective?
> 
> I can only wish my sincere good wishes to the Indian and Pakistani leaders....it's time for some action now, baat bahut ho chuki hai....
> 
> Good luck Mr. Qureshi and Mr. Krishna...
> PM hopeful on Pak ties, wants Qureshi to visit



If the Military controls foreign policy, then the GoP of that time will obviously parrot the military line. This is just a canard to refuse talks with Pakistan.


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## SekrutYakhni

*Originally posted by AgnosticMuslim!
*
Quite frankly that reflects *Pakistan's intentions to continue engagement with India along the lines of the Musharraf initiative, of not using insurgency to push the issue. *It is time now for the Indians, government, media and intelligentsia, to stop scapegoating Pakistan and come to the table to resolve the dispute in a trilateral format that includes the Kashmiris separatists.

*Edit:*
Musharaf made a right move in fact he took a great initiative to solve the issue. However, Indians did what they always do. This shows the intensions of Indian side! 

I do not think that they will come to the table with good will.


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## rajgoynar

*Indian Kashmir sees further clashes *








Demonstrators in Kashmir have thrown stones at Indian police officers who have responded by firing tear gas and shots into the air, during a strict curfew imposed after deadly protests.

The clashes on Tuesday in Baramulla, north of Indian Kashmir's main city of Srinagar, came a day after violence that led to the deaths of 19 people.

Three protesters were wounded on Tuesday, according to a police officer speaking on condition of anonymity to the Associated Press news agency.

Another two demonstrators were injured in a village close to Srinagar when police fired shots at them, the officer said. The shooting sparked further clashes.

Thousands of police have been stationed in the region to prevent further violence, while all fights to Srinagar have been suspended.
*
'Go India'*

Monday's protests were held against Indian rule and reports of Quran burning. It was the most deadly day of violence since mass demonstrations began three months ago, state police said.

Despite the curfew, tens of thousands of protesters took to the streets on Monday, throwing rocks, torching government buildings and chanting "Go India, go back. We want freedom.''

Security forces shot live ammunition at some of the crowds, killing people in at least five different villages, a police officer said.

In the village of Tangmarg, troops fired at thousands of rock-throwing demonstrators, killing five people and wounding at least 50 others, the police officer said. Earlier, protesters burned at least four government buildings as well as a schoolhouse in the town.

In Budgam, troops tried to disperse demonstrators with tear gas and baton charges but began firing into the crowd after protesters attacked a police station and the government forces with rocks, the police officer said.

At least four people including a young woman were killed and at least 30 others were wounded, some critically.

A policeman was also killed during the protests in Budgam after he was hit by a vehicle that then sped away, the officer said. At least four other protesters were killed in three other towns, he said.

*'House arrest'*

Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, the main separatist leader, told Al Jazeera there is no room for political protest in Kashmir.
"I have been under house arrest since Eid, many of my party have been arrested," Farooq said.

"In many places the protests are very peaceful ... [but Indian] troops are firing indiscriminately [at protesters]."

Monday's toll included at least seven people killed in police clashes after thousands of Muslim protesters set fire to a Christian missionary school and government buildings in two Kashmiri districts to denounce reports on the Iranian state-run channel, Press TV, that copies of the Quran had been damaged in the US over the weekend.

Though a Florida pastor called off his plans to burn the Muslim holy book, the channel showed footage of a different man destroying a Quran.

The protesters chanted "Down with Quran desecraters,'' and protest leaders denounced the alleged desecration in speeches to the crowds.

The death toll was the highest since separatist protests broke out in June against Indian rule in the northern state.

In a statement at the end of a special cabinet meeting on Kashmir, on Monday, the Indian government said it was "deeply distressed by the turn of events" and appealed for calm.

'Incoherent policy'

However, it decided against heeding calls from some in the government to partially lift a 20-year-old army emergency law, that gives sweeping powers to security forces in Kashmir.

The government offered to take part in talks with all peaceful groups in Kashmir, which would cover the "trust deficit and the governance deficit".

It also called an all-party meeting for Wednesday in New Delhi "to take certain initiatives and measures that will build confidence of people."

Saeed Naqvi, a political commentator based in New Delhi, told Al Jazeera that Delhi has been preoccupied with other problems and ignored the Kashmir issue.

"There is a trust deficit [between India and Kashmir] and it has been addressed by inaction, unimaginative policy, even absence of policy, on the part of New Delhi," he said.

"There is angst and anger [in Kashmir]. After three months of bloodshed and agitation ... [the struggle] has acquired an intensity and velocity. All they had to do was tone down the profile of the army.

"Nobody likes a foreign army and the Indian army looks like a foreign army to them."









Indian Kashmir sees further clashes - Central & South Asia - Al Jazeera English


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## GUNNER

DGMO said:


> You're still missing the point. It has come out and said it stands with Kashmiri's, SMQ has come out with condemnation and uttered the resolution in accordance with UN resolutions etc etc.



I think *Civfanatic* has a point here. While GOP has issued condemnation, the next thing to do is to launch what is called a diplomatic offensive. Pakistan is party to the dispute and hence is bound to make a move on part of the Kashmiri people. It should take up the issue in UN and other international forums to build the pressure on India while it is already on the defensive. The world should be made to realzie that while ultimate solution of the dispute is to be settled by the two countries and the people of Kashmir, the brutality of the Indian forces must be condemned and stopped. By chosing to stay quiet for whatever reasons, they condone the acts of tyranny which would be unacceptable in any other part of the world.

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## alibaz

*Qureshi urges India to exercise restraint, find a solution*
ISLAMABAD: Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi on Tuesday strongly condemned the blatant violence by Indian security forces against Kashmiri people that claimed scores of innocent lives since June.

Commenting on the ongoing situation in Indian-occupied Kashmir, the Foreign Minister urged India to exercise restraint and, instead of resorting to violence and procrastination, work towards finding a solution to the Jammu and Kashmir dispute in accordance with the relevant UN resolution and aspirations of Kashmiris.

He expressed Pakistan's unequivocal solidarity with the people of Jammu and Kashmir.

He reiterated that Pakistan will continue to extend its political, moral and diplomatic support to the people of Jammu and Kashmir for their right to self-determination.
Qureshi urges India to exercise restraint, find a solution - GEO.tv


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## Patrician

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The silence of the GoP on the Kashmir issue pretty much explains what stance it has taken.
> 
> Regardless of the propaganda and nonsense published in the Indian media about the 'ISI sponsoring stone pelters' the facts are that infiltration across the LoC remains at historic lows, as it has for almost a decade now since Musharraf's initiative to try a different tact of resolving the dispute with India, and Pakistan has made almost no attempt to *easily exploit a very explosive situation in Kashmir*. What little infiltration that occurs has to be accepted given the rugged terrain and the inability of any State to seal off such a demarcation line 100&#37;.
> 
> Leave alone covert support for separatists, there has been no diplomatic offensive either, nor was there much of one in the past with the other massive protests in Kashmir.
> 
> Quite frankly that reflects Pakistan's intentions to continue engagement with India along the lines of the Musharraf initiative, of not using insurgency to push the issue. It is time now for the Indians, government, media and intelligentsia, to stop scapegoating Pakistan and come to the table to resolve the dispute in a trilateral format that includes the Kashmiris separatists.
> 
> The ball is in India's court on this issue.



AM my friend, can you?

I agree with quite a few points in your post except the part that the dialogue has to include seperatists.

Seperatists do not represent ladakh
Seperatists do not represent Jammu
Seperatists do not represent Pandits

Heck, seperatists do not even represent the valley beyond a certain extent.

One more proof of the seperatists' irrelevance can be gauged by the fact the MMS and mushy were at a very advanced stage in resoving the kashmir problem and that dialogue didn't include the seperatists. So it is clear that a solution can be reached even without the seperatists.


P.S. AM every Kashmir thread is getting derailed as we all take recourse to the same few points again and again and it is very difficult to keep track of the members' replies in so many different threads. With your permission, I'd like to create a thread called "All views on Kashmir" where we could systematically post our views and discussions such as the current one we are having. May I?


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## DGMO

GUNNER said:


> I think *Civfanatic* has a point here. While GOP has issued condemnation, the next thing to do is to launch what is called a diplomatic offensive. Pakistan is party to the dispute and hence is bound to make a move on part of the Kashmiri people. It should take up the issue in UN and other international forums to build the pressure on India while it is already on the defensive. The world should be made to realzie that while ultimate solution of the dispute is to be settled by the two countries and the people of Kashmir, the brutality of the Indian forces must be condemned and stopped. By chosing to stay quiet for whatever reasons, they condone the acts of tyranny which would be unacceptable in any other part of the world.


And as I have said countless times, what will a 'diplomatic offensive' achieve?

Don't the OIC have TV's or read the press reports? How loudly is the P5 speaking out? How loudly have the EU spoken out in the past 2 months? Nothing, zilch. 

India whether we like it or not has the clout to tell those nations 'keep your nose out, this is an internal matter, messy as it is, it's internal'. And those nations are obliging.

So let's say we go on a diplomatic offensive. Do you honestly feel we'll get cries of condemnation from Washington and Brussels? No we won't. What we will get are toned down criticism such as 'we would urge for all sides to demonstrate maximum restraint and avoid any injury or loss to civlian life' etc etc. What do we do then, everyone in the FO give each other high-fives? Pop the champagne corks? Does that stop the suffering of the Kashmiri's? Will India take heed? Nope.

The solution lies in India to stop dithering, and to do something. But as the AFP report touches on, there is 'paralysis'in New Delhi. Whatever it proposes is shot down by the separatists and is seen as insufficient. So the cycle of violence is here to stay for the foreseeable future - barring any drastic change in tune from the GoI.


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## DGMO

saad445566 said:


> *Plebiscite is the only solution. *


No it's not.

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## GUNNER

fateh71 said:


> We have no sympathy for anyone who wants to use violence while protesting, thats not protesting, thats rioting, and that applies to everyone, not just Kashmiris.



Easy said than done really. The same cops who are being hailed for killing of protesting Kashmiri civilians, will be mauled and dubbed 'killers in uniform' if they shot at a violent or rioting protest in an indian city. All hue and cry will be raised by the indian media and i am sure many heads will role.


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## SekrutYakhni

DGMO said:


> No it's not.



Why not? Any specific reasons/concerns?

We should have a sticky Kashmir thread rather than several threads going on at the same time.

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## deckingraj

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> If the Military controls foreign policy, then the GoP of that time will obviously parrot the military line. This is just a canard to refuse talks with Pakistan.



Sorry but this is a very naive response....The issue is really an important one, which can be ignored if the intention is India bashing....Otherwise it is plane simple that you want to talk to people who can take difficult decisions...To solve an issue as complex as Kashmir the last thing you want to do is talk to proxies no matter what side of border they belong to....One must not forget that a lot of progress was made during Musharraf era even though he was the architect of Kargil. Reason is simple - he had power to take decisions....

Now all those who are saying India is refusing to talk needs a reality check....Many people also contribute Mumbai for breaking the dialogue process....However the real reason was the political unstabality that Pak was going through in 2007...Obviously mumbai did not do any good and compelled GOI to be more assertive on terrrorism when it comes to talks..In fact made GOI life difficult to carry on dialogue process without any tangible action on terrorism....However the real deal breaker was political instability in Pak....

You might not be interested but MMS has done a lot from his end to carry on the dialogue process....His heroics at Sharma-e-Sheikh is supposed to be appreciated....Even with such a dilly-dally response from Pak about mumbai attacks he has managed to get talks going atleast at some level...Heck even after that recently Kureshi mis-behaved and break all the protocols viz-a-viz our foreign minister...So all those who are pointing fingers at India should just ponder a bit more on their side of border....

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## Rajput Warrior

*Another youngster Killed by indian occupiers.......MURDER TOLL RISES TO 19..*


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## GUNNER

DGMO said:


> India whether we like it or not has the clout to tell those nations 'keep your nose out, this is an internal matter, messy as it is, it's internal'. And those nations are obliging.



Agreed. But does that mean GOP should contend itself by doing nothing? While i agree to the above mentioned point, there is always a tipping point. Among other things, one thing that recent protests in Kashmir hope to achieve is international recognition. And it is coming. Slowly but it is. If you see the recent coverage in international media, the focus is shifting away from Pakistani interference and is moving more towards what India is doing in Kashmir. Pakistan can build on this. And even if it achieves nothing at the end, at least we tried. Most of all, it will show to the Kashmiris that we care if no one else does.


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## alibaz

SRINAGAR: Indian police patrolled the streets of Kashmir on Tuesday, threatening to shoot anyone defying a rigid curfew imposed on the region a day after troops battled protesters in the streets in violence that killed 19 people.

The region has been wracked by anti-India protests throughout the summer, but the chaos Monday &#8212;exacerbated by reports of a Quran desecration in the United States &#8212;was the deadliest here since large-scale demonstrations began in June.

In an attempt to prevent another round of violence, police and paramilitary soldiers drove through the deserted streets of the main towns of Indian-administered Kashmir, using loudspeakers to announce that curfew violators would be shot on sight.

But scores of demonstrators took to the streets of Baramulla and hurled rocks at police.

Soldiers retaliated by firing shots in the air and launching tear gas shells, wounding three protesters, said a police officer speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorised to speak to the media.

In overnight protests, demonstrators set fire to a police vehicle in Charar-e-Sharief, 30 miles (45 kilometers) southwest of Srinagar, police said.

The region has been roiled for months by separatist protests that often descend into clashes with government forces.

The violence has killed at least 88 people this summer &#8212;mostly teenage boys and young men in their 20s.

The anti-India protests turned into rare anti-America protests Monday as reports of a Quran desecration in the United States intensified the anger of demonstrators, with activists chanting ''Down with America'' and burning an effigy of President Barack Obama.

The protesters burned government buildings and Christian missionary school and threw rocks at troops, who responded by firing into the crowds.

The death toll from that violence rose to 19 on Tuesday, including 18 demonstrators and one police officer.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/world/04-kashmir-8-killed-qs-06

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## Rajput Warrior

DEATH TO THE MURDERERS!


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## Patrician

DGMO said:


> And as I have said countless times, what will a 'diplomatic offensive' achieve?
> 
> Don't the OIC have TV's or read the press reports? How loudly is the P5 speaking out? How loudly have the EU spoken out in the past 2 months? Nothing, zilch.
> 
> India whether we like it or not has the clout to tell those nations 'keep your nose out, this is an internal matter, messy as it is, it's internal'. And those nations are obliging.
> 
> So let's say we go on a diplomatic offensive. Do you honestly feel we'll get cries of condemnation from Washington and Brussels? No we won't. What we will get are toned down criticism such as 'we would urge for all sides to demonstrate maximum restraint and avoid any injury or loss to civlian life' etc etc. What do we do then, everyone in the FO give each other high-fives? Pop the champagne corks? Does that stop the suffering of the Kashmiri's? Will India take heed? Nope.
> 
> The solution lies in India to stop dithering, and to do something. But as the AFP report touches on, there is 'paralysis'in New Delhi. Whatever it proposes is shot down by the separatists and is seen as insufficient. So the *cycle of violence is here to stay for the foreseeable future - barring any drastic change in tune from the GoI*.



Quite a sensible post for which I must commend and thank you.

I do not, though, agree with the bolded part. GoI is trying its best. The problem is that India is a democracy and with something as complex aqs Kashmir, GoI has listen to every shade of opinion. Let me give you an idea.

1. Some people demand completely abolishing the article 370 which grants Kashmir as a special status under the indian constitution. Abolishing article 370 will make kashmir just like any other state of India allowing other Indians to buy land, invest in buisnesses and other such activities as are allowed to every citizen of India in any state of India. Their point is that by doing so, Kashmir will come into the mainstream. Money will start pouring in. Business opporunities for kashmiris will be created and resulting development will solve the issue slowly and steadily.

2. Some people demand that Kashmir be granted all the autonomy that ir was promised at the time it acceded to India. Abolishing AFSPA etc. and demilitarisation are all a prt of this option. This actually calls the GoI to give complete autonomy to J&K exceot on the three issues of Defence, Foreign Policy and Communication which will subsequesntly be retained by the GoI.

3. There is one view of Ladakh, Jammu and other districts f J&K which want to remain India and want to have nothing to do with this problem.

4. There is one view of Kashmiri Pandits who belong to kashmir but again want to remain firmly with India.

5. There is one view of armed/security forces who see all this with their own distinct viewpoint keeping in mind the overall security and integrity of the nation.

So you see there and so many different viewpoints and with India being a democracy, GoI cannot ingonre any party and must listen to all shades of views. This whole process takes time. It's very tedious job to reach a consensus within India itself.

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## DGMO

saad445566 said:


> Why not? Any specific reasons/concerns?


Because:

1) This isn't 1947

2) A plebiscite takes into consideration the entire region of Kashmir - and there are regions (Leh, Ladakh, Jammu etc) that have no real desire to be with Pakistan

3) China controls a part of that original region - doubtful whether they'd relinquish that control. In fact, doubtful is being kind to them.

4) The main area of dispute revolves around the Valley - so the need for a plebiscite is made redundant

5) Those in the Valley would perhaps like an option that isn't in the wording of such a plebiscite - namely independence

6) There is no real effort, interest or push from the international community to have this go ahead - always crucial for resolving international disputes (Northern Ireland, Kosovo, Palestine etc)

7) And oh yeah, India would never allow it (always makes these things a bit harder)​
That's 7 reasons that I've rattled off from the top of my head, I'm sure there are more, but you get the picture.

P.S. There's so many topics to touch on within Kashmir, I think it makes sense to open different threads. One sticky, and everything gets lost and no true perspective or discussion can be had on that topic.

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## deckingraj

GUNNER said:


> Easy said than done really. The same cops who are being hailed for killing of protesting Kashmiri civilians, will be mauled and dubbed 'killers in uniform' if they shot at a violent or rioting protest in an indian city. All hue and cry will be raised by the indian media and i am sure many heads will role.



Sir if the intent is India bashing then that's fine...If really interested in knowing about this side of the border then let me tell you, that this is a wrong perception that you are carrying....Once a curfew is laid down all those who break them are dealt with Iron Hand....We have scene many shoot at sight orders in different parts of India on various occasions...

I don't believe in semantics but this riot is also taking place in an India city...if you are under the impression that Indians don't care about their fellow indians in J&K then i would say watch this program...

Kashmir: Paradise lost?

Mind it openly airing views of people who are against the state is not an ordinary thing...You will get another inclination from the the below given shows(from the same channel)

We The People: Govt vs Army on Armed Forces Act?

Building trust in Kashmir

The debates are going on...Media is playing its role and things will change for good....

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## DGMO

Patrician said:


> Quite a sensible post for which I must commend and thank you.
> 
> I do not, though, agree with the bolded part. GoI is trying its best. The problem is that India is a democracy and with something as complex aqs Kashmir, GoI has listen to every shade of opinion. Let me give you an idea.
> 
> 1. Some people demand completely abolishing the article 370 which grants Kashmir as a special status under the indian constitution. Abolishing article 370 will make kashmir just like any other state of India allowing other Indians to buy land, invest in buisnesses and other such activities as are allowed to every citizen of India in any state of India. Their point is that by doing so, Kashmir will come into the mainstream. Money will start pouring in. Business opporunities for kashmiris will be created and resulting development will solve the issue slowly and steadily.
> 
> 2. Some people demand that Kashmir be granted all the autonomy that ir was promised at the time it acceded to India. Abolishing AFSPA etc. and demilitarisation are all a prt of this option. This actually calls the GoI to give complete autonomy to J&K exceot on the three issues of Defence, Foreign Policy and Communication which will subsequesntly be retained by the GoI.
> 
> 3. There is one view of Ladakh, Jammu and other districts f J&K which want to remain India and want to have nothing to do with this problem.
> 
> 4. There is one view of Kashmiri Pandits who belong to kashmir but again want to remain firmly with India.
> 
> 5. There is one view of armed/security forces who see all this with their own distinct viewpoint keeping in mind the overall security and integrity of the nation.
> 
> So you see there and so many different viewpoints and with India being a democracy, GoI cannot ingonre any party and must listen to all shades of views. This whole process takes time. It's very tedious job to reach a consensus within India itself.



Thanks Patrician, and I agree with what you say. I have touched on a few posts back that India finds itself in a bind like no other. There is also the tug and pull from the Security Forces as they believe relinquishing AFSPA could be a mistake. 

What I'm critical of is that there doesn't seem to be that 'grab this issue by the scruff of the neck' approach, and we're more than 2 months into it. A lot of back and forth between ND and Srinagar, but no real tangible results. In the meantime, death and mayhem continues.

Being MMS right now is a job not many would want. I understand and appreciate the differing viewpoints, the NC wants something, Congress can only give so much, BJP wants to give away nothing, and Geelani and co want everything. And let's not forget the Army who feel as if they're being kicked around like a political football. So I'm fully aware of the domestic and democratic compulsions you have. 

Hopefully my fellow Pakistani members can grasp that, and realise that it's not so black and white. However, I think we're all in agreement that the suffering of Kashmiri's cannot continue. 

We'll just have to see what step GoI take to make that breakthrough.

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## Patrician

DGMO said:


> Thanks Patrician, and I agree with what you say. I have touched on a few posts back that India finds itself in a bind like no other. There is also the tug and pull from the Security Forces as they believe relinquishing AFSPA could be a mistake.
> 
> What I'm critical of is that there doesn't seem to be that 'grab this issue by the scruff of the neck' approach, and we're more than 2 months into it. A lot of back and forth between ND and Srinagar, but no real tangible results. In the meantime, death and mayhem continues.
> 
> Being MMS right now is a job not many would want. I understand and appreciate the differing viewpoints, the NC wants something, Congress can only give so much, BJP wants to give away nothing, and Geelani and co want everything. And let's not forget the Army who feel as if they're being kicked around like a political football. So I'm fully aware of the domestic and democratic compulsions you have.
> 
> Hopefully my fellow Pakistani members can grasp that, and realise that it's not so black and white. However, I think we're all in agreement that the suffering of Kashmiri's cannot continue.
> 
> We'll just have to see what step GoI take to make that breakthrough.



Thank you. Thank you very much for being so sensible. There are not many on  who are. 

Based on media reports, I can tell you that there is some heavy brainstorming going on inside the GoI right now. We will see some action (like selectively remiving AFSPA, of which I'm personally in favor) very soon, very soon indeed.


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## Valiant_Soul

> However, I think we're all in agreement that the suffering of Kashmiri's cannot continue.



Yes, we do. And that is why the government continuously urge them not to indulge in violent protests and take law into their hands, but instead come to the table to talk. The ball has always been in their court.


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## alibaz

NEW DELHI: About two thirds of residents in Indian-administered Kashmir want independence for their region, with less than one in ten seeking a merger with Pakistan, a survey showed Sunday.

The Kashmir region is administered separately by India and Pakistan, with the Indian part subject to an insurgency and violent separatist movement for the last 20 years that has claimed an estimated 47,000 lives.

The poll, conducted for the Sunday Hindustan Times newspaper, showed that 66 per cent of respondents in the Kashmir valley wanted &#8220;complete freedom to entire Jammu and Kashmir as a new country&#8221;.

Jammu and Kashmir includes the violence-wracked Muslim-majority Kashmir valley, the Hindu-majority region of Jammu and the mostly Buddhist Ladakh area.

Only six per cent in Kashmir wanted a &#8220;complete merger of the entire Jammu and Kashmir in Pakistan.&#8221;

The desire for independence for the state is not shared in the Jammu and Ladakh parts however, where 76 per cent and 70 per cent wanted a &#8220;complete merger&#8221; of the state into India.

Kashmir has a special status under the Indian constitution and was initially autonomous after partition of the subcontinent in 1947, though much of its autonomy has slowly been eroded.

Respondents were also asked who was to blame for a current wave of unrest in the Kashmir area where young stone-throwers have clashed with security forces for the last three months.

Seventy protesters and bystanders &#8212; some children &#8212; have been killed, mostly by security forces who have fired on demonstrations.

In Kashmir, 56 per cent blamed India for the unrest, while 44 per cent of those asked in the &#8220;rest of India&#8221; thought Pakistan was responsible for stirring up trouble.

Majorities in all areas concurred that Indian forces should not use bullets against protesters, with 96 per cent saying it was wrong in Kashmir, and 85 per cent in the rest of India.

Two thirds thought it was wrong in Jammu, while 31 per cent said it was acceptable.

The poll was conducted by Team CVoter and canvassed 2,369 people.

On Sunday, Indian security forces enforced a strict curfew in much of Kashmir, a day after prayers marking the end of the Muslim fasting month of Ramazan erupted into protests.

Thousands, including women and children, marched through the city and held demonstrations at its historic business centre.

Protesters hoisted green Islamic and Pakistani flags atop a clock tower and later police blamed them for setting fire to a government building that housed the offices of the force's crime branch and power development department.

Separatists, who led Saturday's protests, blamed &#8220;anti-movement elements&#8221; for setting fire to the building and called for a probe into the arson.

Police said they had imposed a curfew on Sunday to prevent further violence.

The Muslim-majority Kashmir region has been fought over by India and Pakistan since the partition of British-ruled India in 1947, with the region now cut in two along a UN-monitored line of control.

DAWN.COM | World | Two thirds in Kashmir want independence: poll


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## Valiant_Soul

> However, I think we're all in agreement that the suffering of Kashmiri's cannot continue.



Yes, we do. And that is why the government continuously urge them not to indulge in violent protests and take law into their hands, but instead come to the table to talk. The ball has always been in their court.


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## DGMO

GUNNER said:


> Agreed. But does that mean GOP should contend itself by doing nothing? While i agree to the above mentioned point, there is always a tipping point. Among other things, one thing that recent protests in Kashmir hope to achieve is international recognition. And it is coming. Slowly but it is. If you see the recent coverage in international media, the focus is shifting away from Pakistani interference and is moving more towards what India is doing in Kashmir. Pakistan can build on this. And even if it achieves nothing at the end, at least we tried. Most of all, it will show to the Kashmiris that we care if no one else does.


But is it doing nothing? And what would you perceive as 'more' than it is? Then as I keep coming back to, what is the end game?

You're being naive, and I don't mean that in a rude way brother. International recognition comes to light when interests are affected. The West cares about Pakistan in the context of Afghanistan. The linkage that was made when Obama was running for president is fully known:

_We have to solve Kashmir to get the Pak forces to concentrate on Afghanistan_​
So that's the only time I can think of when the international community have thought about us and Kashmir in the same closed bracket. But then this was shot down by India, and totally forgotten when Obama was elected and ever since.

So Kashmir (at present), doesn't tug the heartstrings of the West. In fact, not even the Arab and wider muslim world.

The Kashmiri's know we care, that is never in dispute, but our influence on what we can achieve is limited (if India doesn't involve us). That's reality, and we need to accept it.

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## deckingraj

DGMO said:


> Thanks Patrician, and I agree with what you say. I have touched on a few posts back that India finds itself in a bind like no other. There is also the tug and pull from the Security Forces as they believe relinquishing AFSPA could be a mistake.
> 
> What I'm critical of is that there doesn't seem to be that 'grab this issue by the scruff of the neck' approach, and we're more than 2 months into it. A lot of back and forth between ND and Srinagar, but no real tangible results. In the meantime, death and mayhem continues.
> 
> Being MMS right now is a job not many would want. I understand and appreciate the differing viewpoints, the NC wants something, Congress can only give so much, BJP wants to give away nothing, and Geelani and co want everything. And let's not forget the Army who feel as if they're being kicked around like a political football. So I'm fully aware of the domestic and democratic compulsions you have.
> 
> Hopefully my fellow Pakistani members can grasp that, and realise that it's not so black and white. However, I think we're all in agreement that the suffering of Kashmiri's cannot continue.
> 
> We'll just have to see what step GoI take to make that breakthrough.





You will find many people criticizing the approach of GOI...The issue is we are not clear about what to do..there is lot of uncertainty going on and any lull is Kashmir is mistaken to be stabilization...and then we are left confused and surprised....The need of the hour is development in Kashmir and that's where catch 22 situation arise...How to get development reach Kashmir in all this turmoil....Regarding political solution then it is a distant dream as of now...let's hope for the best....


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## GUNNER

deckingraj said:


> Sir if the intent is India bashing then that's fine...



No Sir, it is not. The intent was to highlight the duplicity of dealing with two different scenarios by some in the indian media. 




deckingraj said:


> If really interested in knowing about this side of the border then let me tell you, that this is a wrong perception that you are carrying....Once a curfew is laid down all those who break them are dealt with Iron Hand....We have scene many shoot at sight orders in different parts of India on various occasions...



Agreed on the curfew part. But several killings took place while there wasn't a curfew. 



deckingraj said:


> if you are under the impression that Indians don't care about their fellow indians in J&K then i would say watch this program......



No sir, i do not hold that impression. The acts of a few do not justify generalization. I know there are several divergent views on Kashmir in India. Some soft, most hawkish. I see lot of Indian media so kindly do not take me for a naive man. Should i tell you what is running on NDTV or CNN-IBN or TIMES NOW or Headlines Today right now? 



deckingraj said:


> *Mind it openly airing views of people who are against the state is not an ordinary thing*...You will get another inclination from the the below given shows(from the same channel)



I agree again on the bolded part. But herein lies the problem. Not just in India but also in Pakistan. Once the state builds an image with the help of some in the media and it sets in with the public, then ultimately the state becomes hostage to it and cannot wriggle away. Even when it tries to. That's what the two states have ended up doing as far as Kashmir is concerned. Any voice that challenges the status quo is snubbed. 



deckingraj said:


> The debates are going on...Media is playing its role and things will change for good....



Amen.


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## deckingraj

Valiant_Soul said:


> Yes, we do. And that is why the government continuously urge them not to indulge in violent protests and take law into their hands, but instead come to the table to talk. The ball has always been in their court.



This is very simplistic view...It is easy saying balls in their court but we cannot deny the mistakes of GOI viz-a-viz Kashmir...I do not want to derail the thread but if you want to get a complete picture perhaps start from GOI role in rigged elections of late 80's.....


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## Patrician

alibaz said:


> NEW DELHI: About two thirds of residents in Indian-administered Kashmir want independence for their region, with less than one in ten seeking a merger with Pakistan, a survey showed Sunday.
> 
> The Kashmir region is administered separately by India and Pakistan, with the Indian part subject to an insurgency and violent separatist movement for the last 20 years that has claimed an estimated 47,000 lives.
> 
> The poll, conducted for the Sunday Hindustan Times newspaper, showed that 66 per cent of respondents in the Kashmir valley wanted &#8220;complete freedom to entire Jammu and Kashmir as a new country&#8221;.
> 
> Jammu and Kashmir includes the violence-wracked Muslim-majority Kashmir valley, the Hindu-majority region of Jammu and the mostly Buddhist Ladakh area.
> 
> Only six per cent in Kashmir wanted a &#8220;complete merger of the entire Jammu and Kashmir in Pakistan.&#8221;
> 
> The desire for independence for the state is not shared in the Jammu and Ladakh parts however, where 76 per cent and 70 per cent wanted a &#8220;complete merger&#8221; of the state into India.
> 
> Kashmir has a special status under the Indian constitution and was initially autonomous after partition of the subcontinent in 1947, though much of its autonomy has slowly been eroded.
> 
> Respondents were also asked who was to blame for a current wave of unrest in the Kashmir area where young stone-throwers have clashed with security forces for the last three months.
> 
> Seventy protesters and bystanders &#8212; some children &#8212; have been killed, mostly by security forces who have fired on demonstrations.
> 
> In Kashmir, 56 per cent blamed India for the unrest, while 44 per cent of those asked in the &#8220;rest of India&#8221; thought Pakistan was responsible for stirring up trouble.
> 
> Majorities in all areas concurred that Indian forces should not use bullets against protesters, with 96 per cent saying it was wrong in Kashmir, and 85 per cent in the rest of India.
> 
> Two thirds thought it was wrong in Jammu, while 31 per cent said it was acceptable.
> 
> The poll was conducted by Team CVoter and canvassed 2,369 people.
> 
> On Sunday, Indian security forces enforced a strict curfew in much of Kashmir, a day after prayers marking the end of the Muslim fasting month of Ramazan erupted into protests.
> 
> Thousands, including women and children, marched through the city and held demonstrations at its historic business centre.
> 
> Protesters hoisted green Islamic and Pakistani flags atop a clock tower and later police blamed them for setting fire to a government building that housed the offices of the force's crime branch and power development department.
> 
> Separatists, who led Saturday's protests, blamed &#8220;anti-movement elements&#8221; for setting fire to the building and called for a probe into the arson.
> 
> Police said they had imposed a curfew on Sunday to prevent further violence.
> 
> The Muslim-majority Kashmir region has been fought over by India and Pakistan since the partition of British-ruled India in 1947, with the region now cut in two along a UN-monitored line of control.
> 
> DAWN.COM | World | Two thirds in Kashmir want independence: poll



*This is what is called misinterpretation of facts.* Let me post that survey for you which I actually posted in another thread:






A few important points to note,

*1. Kashmiris' are themselves divided about what they want.
2. 68&#37; in the valley say that " India should give kashmir control over everything except defence, foreign affairs and communication. This clearly means that those 68% can compromise with India retaining overall control. Yet again, 66% in the valley say "Complete freedom for entire J&K as a seperate country".*

Two thing becomes very clear,

*1. Valley and only valley wants independence but even they could be satisfied with things like greater autonomy with India giving up control for everything except defence, foreign affairs and communication. GoI is game for that.
2. Nobody wants to join Pakistan*

Regards

Peace

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

OMG Lighting up Kashmir would give some Room to Moists and other such groups Not to Mention the Indians hosting common wealth games and ICC Cricket world cup ... India should Take Kashmir Seriously and push for its peaceful resolution as the Kashmiris Demand or else if Kashmir Struggle turned into an Armed Struggle Things could go mighty ugly for the ever growing and shining Asian Economic Giant India....!!!!


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## GUNNER

DGMO said:


> But is it doing nothing? And what would you perceive as 'more' than it is? Then as I keep coming back to, what is the end game?



It's called doing the least of what they can. Even Kashmiri leaders have been calling for action by Pakistan at this point by taking up the issue of at international forum. And not just the so-called seperatists but the moderates who are willing to talk to India. 



DGMO said:


> International recognition comes to light when interests are affected. The West cares about Pakistan in the context of Afghanistan.



I agree to the first part but you ve answered your own question. Has the issue in Afghanistan been solved ? Infact once it is, Pakistan will lose whatever leverage it has right now. 

Again, i am not saying that international community be asked to resolve the dispute. Not even to ask India to engage in talks with Pakistan. Even though US is doing that part. But, to ask India to show restraint in Kashmir and stop the sense-less killings.


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## DGMO

deckingraj said:


> You will find many people criticizing the approach of GOI...The issue is we are not clear about what to do..there is lot of uncertainty going on


I think that's the problem and the GoI is at a loss on how to deal with this. I think there is wholesale agreement that the unprecedented nature of these protests and cries for azaadi has stunned Congress. Even I didn't think this had legs to go this far, but 80+ deaths later and now I can't see this winding down soon.

So the scenario (which is frightening for New Delhi) is 'what if this gets worse than it currently is?'.

Development is not the real issue for me, I think it's disingenious to say that it is the crux of the issue. I think we all need to be honest with ourselves and realise that there is political disenchantment in the Valley.

Kashmir, by Indian standards is a wealthy state (6% poverty levels I believe), and we all know that economic packages have been announced on a regular basis.

But how much can the GoI continue to raise that as a means to a solution? Haven't we got to a stage where jobs come second and a true political solution comes first?

I'm sure MMS is tired of announcing economic packages only to find mass riots and protests later. Isn't that telling us something?

Political solution first, jobs second seems to be what the Kashmiri's in the Valley are telling the GoI.


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## Valiant_Soul

deckingraj said:


> This is very simplistic view...It is easy saying balls in their court but we cannot deny the mistakes of GOI viz-a-viz Kashmir...I do not want to derail the thread but if you want to get a complete picture perhaps start from GOI role in rigged elections of late 80's.....



I do not want to derail the thread either, but just a reference would be helpful.


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## DGMO

GUNNER said:


> But, to ask India to show restraint in Kashmir and stop the sense-less killings.


I'd be surprised, very surprised if conversations in private haven't been had. But going all out will only end up with India criticising us heavily for seeking political mileage from the current crisis.

Our hands are tied, and ability to influence matters on the world stage in terms of having such a statement directed at India are limited. I'm sure the OIC could come out with something (meaningless as it will be), but the EU, UN etc will do little - so not to p1ss off India.


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## muhammad asim aslam

Indians apni chooha fauj se Kahmirion ko dara rahe hain...
but Insha Allah Kashmir bane ga Pakistan...

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## DesiGuy

muhammad asim aslam said:


> Indians apni chooha fauj se Kahmirion ko dara rahe hain...
> but Insha Allah Kashmir bane ga Pakistan...






Keep dreaming.


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## alibaz

Patrician said:


> *This is what is called misinterpretation of facts.* Let me post that survey for you which I actually posted in another thread:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A few important points to note,
> 
> *1. Kashmiris' are themselves divided about what they want.
> 2. 68% in the valley say that " India should give kashmir control over everything except defence, foreign affairs and communication. This clearly means that those 68% can compromise with India retaining overall control. Yet again, 66% in the valley say "Complete freedom for entire J&K as a seperate country".*
> 
> Two thing becomes very clear,
> 
> *1. Valley and only valley wants independence but even they could be satisfied with things like greater autonomy with India giving up control for everything except defence, foreign affairs and communication. GoI is game for that.
> 2. Nobody wants to join Pakistan*
> 
> Regards
> 
> Peace




Thank you very much for posting survey in tabular form. I think the article posted doesn't have any difference with your table,yes your table is more detailed and logical. Another thing whenever Kashmiries would be asked to give their choice it would not only be Indian Administered Kashmir, it will have opinion count from other side of Kashmir as well and there will be the difference.


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## DesiGuy

*Quran burning rumour: Muslim leaders condemn attack on churches, Christian properties*


NEW DELHI: Prominent Muslim leaders today condemned the attacks on Christian properties and institutions and appealed to their community members to "show restraint" and stage only peaceful demonstrations.

A day after violence erupted in Jammu and Kashmir and Punjab *following rumours that a copy of Quran had been burnt in the US*, the leaders, including MIM leader and MP Asaduddin Owaisi, came out with a statement against such attacks.

"We disapprove disrespect to any religion or desecration of any sacred scripture or vilification of any religious personality or attack on any religious place, anywhere in the world and consider it a despicable and uncivilised act," the leaders like All India Muslim Majlis-e-Mushawart President Syed Shahabuddin said.

They said Islam specifically prohibits such acts and behaviour.

"...whatever the provocation, we strongly condemn the attacks on Christian properties and institutions in some places in Kashmir and in Maler Kotla in Punjab," they said and urged authorities concerned to take stern legal action against the culprits.

"We also appeal to our Muslim brethren in India, in particular, and elsewhere, in general, to show restraint in such situations and limit their disapproval and protest against such incidents to peaceful demonstrations, press statements and memoranda to the authorities concerned," the statement said.

It was signed by Nusrat Ali, Secretary General of Jamaat-e -Islami Hind and Zafar Mahmood, President of Interfaith Coalition and Zakat Foundation of India.
*
The rumours that Quran was burnt led to violent protests in Jammu and Kashmir yesterday. At least 18 people were killed in the violence.*

Quran burning rumour: Muslim leaders condemn attack on churches, Christian properties - The Times of India


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## Valiant_Soul

DGMO said:


> I think that's the problem and the GoI is at a loss on how to deal with this. I think there is wholesale agreement that the unprecedented nature of these protests and cries for azaadi has stunned Congress. Even I didn't think this had legs to go this far, but 80+ deaths later and now I can't see this winding down soon.
> 
> So the scenario (which is frightening for New Delhi) is 'what if this gets worse than it currently is?'.
> 
> Development is not the real issue for me, I think it's disingenious to say that it is the crux of the issue. I think we all need to be honest with ourselves and realise that there is political disenchantment in the Valley.
> 
> Kashmir, by Indian standards is a wealthy state (6% poverty levels I believe), and we all know that economic packages have been announced on a regular basis.
> 
> But how much can the GoI continue to raise that as a means to a solution? Haven't we got to a stage where jobs come second and a true political solution comes first?
> 
> I'm sure MMS is tired of announcing economic packages only to find mass riots and protests later. Isn't that telling us something?
> 
> Political solution first, jobs second seems to be what the Kashmiri's in the Valley are telling the GoI.



How can any solution be achieved without an environment for dialog? The separatists are not ready for any settlement except independence, and that you know is neither feasible nor acceptable. The grounds of their demand is both unjust (based solely on religion) and also not pragmatic. 

But if they want to see peaceful resolution of the issue, they can come to the table and talk, as the Prime Minister has assured that the government is willing to talk to them within the purview of the constitution.

Dialog always paves way to peace, violence seldom.


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## GUNNER

DGMO said:


> But going all out will only end up with India criticising us heavily for seeking political mileage from the current crisis.



I don't think so. It's the first time that New Delhi cannot blame Islamabad of any wrong doing at international forum and they know it. It will be difficult for them to justify the acts of their forces. 



DGMO said:


> Our hands are tied, and ability to influence matters on the world stage in terms of having such a statement directed at India are limited.



Limited they may be but we would never know unless we take it up. 



DGMO said:


> but the EU, UN etc will do little - so not to p1ss off India.



It goes the other way around as well.


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## DGMO

Valiant_Soul said:


> How can any solution be achieved without an environment for dialog? The separatists are not ready for any settlement except independence, and that you know is neither feasible nor acceptable. The grounds of their demand is both unjust (based solely on religion) and also not pragmatic.
> 
> But if they want to see peaceful resolution of the issue, they can come to the table and talk, as the Prime Minister has assured that the government is willing to talk to them within the purview of the constitution.
> 
> Dialog always paves way to peace, violence seldom.


I understand the need for creating the necessary environment. But we have a stalemate. Both sides (placing the environment to one side) have their entrenched positions.

The separatists have placed their preconditions in place, and the GoI have placed their preconditions in place. Can there be discussions when we have that stance from both sides? Both need to show a degree of flexibility. 

I'm not sure how keenly the Centre wanted talks (before the troubles we've seen began), but all I do know is that any talks are going to be much harder given the lives that have been lost, the hatred that has been created, and the trust that is at an all-time low.

As I said earlier, here's hoping the GoI make a breakthrough somehow. Because it seems incredibly hard at the moment.

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## alibaz

Don't you think survey result leads us to this type of solution

*CHENAB FORMULA*
Writes Abdul Rashid Malik in The Nation (3 June 2003): The river Chenab comes out from Himalayan range of Kullus in the extreme north of Kishtwar in Doda district (Jammu province) with high mountain range of Himachal (India) adjoining in the background. It flows through the mountainous areas of Doda, Ramban, Surukot, Salat, Reasi, Akhnoor and enters into Punjab (Pakistan) at Head Marala where a big headwork has been built facilitating construction of two big channels. India has built Salal dam on it under Indus Water Treaty. On the right bank of it is stretched half of mountainous Doda district, the entire Gulab Garh tehsil of Udhampur district, at a very long distance fall the districts of Rajouri and Poonch all being the Muslim majority areas contiguously linked with Kashmir province which has six districts with 98 percent Muslim population. On the left bank of Chenab fall the beautiful Tehsils of Bhadarwah, Kishtwar having majority Muslim population, and at far away starts the Hindu majority districts of Udhampur, Jammu and Kathua. To sum up, out of six districts of Jammu province almost three districts fall on the right bank of Chenab river having close contiguity with Kashmir province. Only three districts with majority Hindu population fall on the left bank of the river. According to Chenab Line formula of division of Jammu and Kashmir (if agreed to) eighty- percent territory of the state (including Azad Kashmir and Northern areas) becomes part of Pakistan only twenty percent being left with India.



lots of coffee


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## DGMO

alibaz said:


> Don't you think survey result leads us to this type of solution
> 
> *CHENAB FORMULA*
> Writes Abdul Rashid Malik in The Nation (3 June 2003): The river Chenab comes out from Himalayan range of Kullus in the extreme north of Kishtwar in Doda district (Jammu province) with high mountain range of Himachal (India) adjoining in the background. It flows through the mountainous areas of Doda, Ramban, Surukot, Salat, Reasi, Akhnoor and enters into Punjab (Pakistan) at Head Marala where a big headwork has been built facilitating construction of two big channels. India has built Salal dam on it under Indus Water Treaty. On the right bank of it is stretched half of mountainous Doda district, the entire Gulab Garh tehsil of Udhampur district, at a very long distance fall the districts of Rajouri and Poonch all being the Muslim majority areas contiguously linked with Kashmir province which has six districts with 98 percent Muslim population. On the left bank of Chenab fall the beautiful Tehsils of Bhadarwah, Kishtwar having majority Muslim population, and at far away starts the Hindu majority districts of Udhampur, Jammu and Kathua. To sum up, out of six districts of Jammu province almost three districts fall on the right bank of Chenab river having close contiguity with Kashmir province. Only three districts with majority Hindu population fall on the left bank of the river. According to Chenab Line formula of division of Jammu and Kashmir (if agreed to) eighty- percent territory of the state (including Azad Kashmir and Northern areas) becomes part of Pakistan only twenty percent being left with India.
> 
> 
> 
> lots of coffee



No, because:

1) It's divisions of land on the basis of religion (which India doesn't agree to)

2) Goes against India's official stance that 'borders cannot be redrawn'.​
It has been put forward before, but it's not going to happen IMO.

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## alibaz

DGMO said:


> No, because:
> 
> 1) It's divisions of land on the basis of religion (which India doesn't agree to)
> 
> 2) Goes against India's official stance that 'borders cannot be redrawn'.​
> It has been put forward before, but it's not going to happen IMO.



Actually now no one owns this formula but there were serious deliberations on it. Subcontinent has already been divided on basis of religion in 1947. The hindrance in this solution is by Kashmiries themselves cause they do not distribution of land. If India and Pakistan both agree and it is not as per aspirations of Kashmiris than it will be real PIA for both India and Pakistan.


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## deckingraj

Valiant_Soul said:


> I do not want to derail the thread either, but just a reference would be helpful.



The problem here is that we have articles but biased to core...Anyways this is something that you can mark my words on...In various debates and discussions this is one thing that every one agrees to....I tried to find something neutral and could come up with couple of Articles and few experts

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Kashmir's flawed elections



> Sheikh Abdullah won a landslide victory, and his son and successor, Farooq Abdullah, won a huge majority in the elections of 1983.
> 
> But Farooq Abdullah fell out with India's ruling Congress party and the then prime minister, Indira Gandhi, who had him dismissed the very next year.
> 
> Turning point
> 
> But when Farooq Abdullah later agreed to an alliance with Congress, it turned many of supporters against him. It is widely believed that the elections of 1987 were rigged in favour of Mr Abdullah's party.




Clueless in Kashmir - The Times of India



> The flashpoint was the 1987 assembly election. It was blatantly rigged to install Farooq Abdullah as chief minister when New Delhi went into panic over the rise of the Muslim United Front of which Geelani, with his pro- Pakistan views, was a part.



Read more: Clueless in Kashmir - The Times of India Clueless in Kashmir - The Times of India


if you are looking out for some GOI admission to this fact then i am sorry i cannot help...


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## DGMO

alibaz said:


> Subcontinent has already been divided on basis of religion in 1947.


And that is enough for one of the main parties to the dispute - India.

There will not be a change or shift in territory brother, as much as one side can see the advantages, this will not happen.


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## Skies

Is there any possibility when PK-army will directly fight along with Kashmiri people against Indian-Army in future?


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## alibaz

DGMO said:


> And that is enough for one of the main parties to the dispute - India.
> 
> There will not be a change or shift in territory brother, as much as one side can see the advantages, this will not happen.



Following may the interests by both sides

Why is then Pakistan interested in the Chenab formula that includes parts of Jammu? With a small twist to this proposal, consider the hypothetical situation, as suggested by many experts, of only Kashmir being a part of Pakistan, and entire Jammu province and Ladakh under India. One evident outcome of such an arrangement would be the dissolving of the Indus Waters Treaty, as the political status of Kashmir would change. The distribution of water resources would be altered. Pakistan would then have complete control over only the Indus, Jhelum, and some of their tributaries. The Chenab, Ravi, Beas and Sutlej rivers would fall under Indias jurisdiction.

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## Rajput Warrior

Indian Jatt said:


> next time there is a war..there will be Kashmiri people in the Indian army fighting againts India's enemies..wether its Pak or Bangladesh.



 .... Pakistani Flag is being hoisted in sri nagar..IOK!! Ur having a WET DREAM!


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## Valiant_Soul

DGMO said:


> I understand the need for creating the necessary environment. But we have a stalemate. Both sides (placing the environment to one side) have their entrenched positions.
> 
> The separatists have placed their preconditions in place, and the GoI have placed their preconditions in place. Can there be discussions when we have that stance from both sides? Both need to show a degree of flexibility.
> 
> I'm not sure how keenly the Centre wanted talks (before the troubles we've seen began), but all I do know is that any talks are going to be much harder given the lives that have been lost, the hatred that has been created, and the trust that is at an all-time low.
> 
> As I said earlier, here's hoping the GoI make a breakthrough somehow. Because it seems incredibly hard at the moment.



How do you think the government could be flexible? It has already expressed, many times, the desire to talk to all parties concerned. But the separatists are steadfast with only one purpose. And we all know that that purpose's nature is political at the helm and emotional at the bottom. 

So then GOI is left with no option but to force what it deems is necessary to establish law and order. This option is always open and the only problem that GOI is facing is to somehow clip the "emotional" nature of this purpose (which is running high right now), so that the chain of protests can be broken and steadily peace can be restored.


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## deckingraj

DGMO said:


> I think that's the problem and the GoI is at a loss on how to deal with this. I think there is wholesale agreement that the unprecedented nature of these protests and cries for azaadi has stunned Congress. Even I didn't think this had legs to go this far, but 80+ deaths later and now I can't see this winding down soon. So the scenario (which is frightening for New Delhi) is 'what if this gets worse than it currently is?'.



Cant agree more on this....



> *Development is not the real issue for me,* I think it's disingenious to say that it is the crux of the issue. I think we all need to be honest with ourselves and realise that there is political disenchantment in the Valley.


Here you are a wrong...Actual development is one big issue....In fact lack of development is the fodder for all kinds of unrest...Mind it i am not saying that people have no issues with being under GOI rule but the reason such a large number of youth is down on roads pelting stones is lack of development....Let's not forget that even Kashmiri's are not sure about what they want...They are also divided on this...So yes, there is a political problem and i am not being dishonest with me on this...However what solution is acceptable even people from valley need a consensus on this....




> Kashmir, by Indian standards is a wealthy state (6% poverty levels I believe), and we all know that economic packages have been announced on a regular basis.


You are right...However Kashmir has a history of violence and political unstability...So in essence Kashmir it missing two pillars for growth....GOI can keep on pumping money but as long as these two pillars are not provided things will not change...The same reason India has Moist problem in other parts...Isn't it bad that in such a changed world farming, animal husbandry and horticulture forms the backbone of the economy of the state of Jammu and Kashmir.

Here is a link for you to read...

Jammu and Kashmir Economy 




> But how much can the GoI continue to raise that as a means to a solution? Haven't we got to a stage where jobs come second and a true political solution comes first?


For whom would be the question...As said people of Kashmir are divided on what is the political solution...What GOI needs to do is win hearts of people there...However GOI has failed to achieve it and the way things are going on i will be surprised if they manage to do that in near future....



> I'm sure MMS is tired of announcing economic packages only to find mass riots and protests later. Isn't that telling us something?


Again we must remember that this is the same state where voter turn around was 65%, much larger then many other states of India...The message is clear, people wan't change and economic prosperity is a must.....As far as riots are concerned then yes people are angry but what is the source of this anger, what is the reason of this anger....is it Azaadi??? i don't think so because people are divided...




> Political solution first, jobs second seems to be what the Kashmiri's in the Valley are telling the GoI.


You might have read this news but if not please do...its is interesting...

Fed up shopkeepers pelt stones at protesters in Kashmir

Please understand that people are angry with GOI...I am not denying it...What i am trying to reason out is the source and reasons for those anger....In other words what is the reason for asserting a political solution??? Isn't it some ways related with development????

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## syedtalha

*Recently, The Shiv Sena youth wing had threatened to hoist the indian flag on 15 aug, at the historic central clock tower of srinagar. 
Now the youth of kashmir have given the BEST POSSIBLE ANSWER to them... Pakistani flag on 11 september eid ul fitr day. 1 million kashmiris congregated at eid gah and marched en masse to lal chowk, red square and hoisted a huge pakistani flag on one side of the tower, and put up a ALLAHU AKBAR flag on the flagpost. Next day dozens of pakistani flags were hoisted on rail bridges, mobile towers, and water tankers in the north kashmir town of baramullah. Kashmiris have not forgotten pakistan, btu pakistan has forgotten kashmir.*






























MESSAGE TO PAKISTANIS FROM KASHMIR

SUPPORT TO PAKISTAN IS AT AN ALL TIME LOW, NOW IF U DONT WANT IT TO FALL FURTHER, RAISE YOUR VOICES PUBLICLY FOR KASHMIRIS.... NOT FOR KASHMIR. FORCE YOUR BLOODY PRIVATE MEDIA TO PAY ATTENTION TO KASHMIRIS. PAKISTANI MEDIA HAS GIVEN LEAST COVERAGE TO US... EVEN INDIAN MEDIA IS BETTER THAN PAKISTANI MEDIA. IF YOU R REAL PAKISTANIS, YOU SHOULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.


Yours//
Kashmiri Brother.

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## syedtalha

*PAKISTANIS ARE GIVING TOO MUCH FREEDOM OF SPEECH TO INDIANS HERE ON THIS FORUM. ACT IN YOUR INTERESTS, BAN ALL INDIANS EXCEPT THOSE WHO ARE SENSITIVE TO THE CONCERNS OF KASHMIRIS.
BOYCOTT BOLLYWOOD COMPLETELY, IT IS AGAINST YOUR RELIGION, YOUR COUNTRY, YOUR MORAL VALUES, AND YOUR INTERESTS... YOU ARE PLAYING WITH OUR AND YOUR MARTYRS BLOOD
RESTRICT FOREIGN FUNDING TO YOUR MEDIA CHANNELS... THEY HAVE BEEN CORRUPTED TO THE CORE IN THE NAME OF "PRESS FREEDOM"
TAKE ACTIVE STEP WITH RESPECT TO KASHMIR... ORGANIZE PUBLIC SYMPATHY FOR KASHMIRIS IN YOUR MOSQUES, CHURCHES, TEMPLES, ETC
MAKE PAKISTAN STRONGER, ELECT YOUR GOVERNMENT WISELY, 

DO YOU ALL PAKISTANI BROTHERS AGREE ON THIS OR NOT.?? 
To my Indian comrades on this thread WE HAVE NOTHING AGAINST INDIA, BUT AGAINST INDIAN OCCUPATION OF KASHMIR, please understand the human angle of the problem, we may be pro pakistanis, or pro russians, or pro chinese, or whatever, what do you care... leave us, and let us rot, we will take care of ourselves *


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## syedtalha

*Freedom of speech is understandable, but when they do illogical reasoning, and post irrelevant and unsubstantiated stuff, it makes us piss off. being kashmiris, we know 90% of the stuff indians post here about kashmir is pure bulls**t. Please let them be within limits of free speech, don;t let them spread mininformation. this is mischievous *


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## astodome

recently 18 Kashmiris killed,maybe this is the answer for hosting pakistani flag,
and now whole Kashmir on curfew..


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## syedtalha

Well, seems u got inside information. I guess it is right, for hoisting pakistani flag 18 get killed. This is war, so everything is fair in love and war. what do you care about what flag goes up... after all, it would never be an indian flag. now that common indian is coming to senses, they will teach your government a lesson. Next elections neither BJP nor congress wins, and you;l;l soon see the kashmir issue resolved and serious talks with pakistan. people of india have realized the trick of the few ultra right wing people having an agenda in the dispute of kashmir continuing. we;ll soon see an end to these policies.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Wah ji Wah. Flag looks Mashallah so great on the tower. May it wave with honour. 

EXCELLENT find brother


as for media attention, I think Pak media does cover the crises in occupied Kashmir. But the problem is, we rely on non affiliated networks to get the news; otherwise we rely on local journalists.

It's an extremely dangerous and non-conducive environment for freely-flowing information --due larglely in part to the media blackouts and undying harassment of media/journalist officials by the occupying forces

we should have more talk shows and debates televized on the subjects; our spinless politicians --who prefer political infighting and petty games -- should focus on these more important and relevant national issues.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

deckingraj said:


> Please understand that people are angry with GOI...I am not denying it...What i am trying to reason out is the source and reasons for those anger....In other words what is the reason for asserting a political solution??? Isn't it some ways related with development????



Why is it so hard for you to accept that the people are disenchanted with Indian occupation and are demanding (at least the kashmiris) that they be allowed to exercise their right to self-determination in some form?

You are going from excuse after excuse to somehow link the unrest with 'lack of development' even going so far as to argue that professions in 'agriculture and husbandry' is the cause, never mind the fact that the majority of both India and Pakistan's economies, and that of many other developing nations, continue to be based on agriculture.

Where is the disenchantment over 'agriculture and animal husbandry jobs' in Pakistan? These are not youths who were unemployed for years that are taking up the baton of protesting Indian rule. Many of them are college and school going individuals, who have not even experienced any potential 'disenchantment with the job market'. This kind of absurd exercise in denying the fact that disenchantment over a violated commitment to deciding through plebiscite whether or not to be part of the Indian State is dishonesty with self.

Just now I was reading an Indian piece where the author recommended holding 'open houses', inviting the youth and leadership and listening to what they want. But what if they want a plebiscite to formalize their compact with the Indian State, a compact they never agreed to?

In all the potential issues the author though the youth might raise, he never considered the possibility of plebiscite. This isn't really 'listening to kashmiri grievances', its only listening to Kashmiri grievances that you have already pre-determined are acceptable to you, in which case it is a pointless exercise.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Valiant_Soul said:


> How do you think the government could be flexible? It has already expressed, many times, the desire to talk to all parties concerned. But the separatists are steadfast with only one purpose. And we all know that that purpose's nature is political at the helm and emotional at the bottom.


Enter into tripartite negotiations with Pakistan and give the Kashmiris (Valley) a means to exercise their right to self-determination so that it no longer is a reason for protest.

Listening to Indians talk about the issue is like listening to a half-blind fellow trying to figure out where the elephants are, while standing between the legs of one ...

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## SnIPeR Xr

nForce said:


> There is a basic difference between the way you and I think.While you let assumptions do the talking,I talk in terms of facts and figures....
> Well,here goes some facts and figures for you.....
> Unemployment rate in a third World yet second fastest developing country like India is 10.70 &#37;.Now it is lower in developed states like Gujarat and TamilNadu,but significantly higher in lesser developed states like Jammu & Kashmir.*It is not like that unemployment is evenly distributed.*
> By the way do you have any idea what is the unemployment rate of a developed country like USA???It is 9.40 % .That will give you a comparative idea....And do you know where you people stand???*Unemployment rate in Pakistan is as high as 15.20 %*,*that saw a whopping increase of 105.41 % over the last year.....*
> 
> Your case is a perfect example of "*Pot calling kettle black.*"
> 
> 
> You dont have an iota of idea about Economics else you would have been aware of these elementary facts,even if you say otherwise,which I take to be point blank lying or an excellent show of complete ignorance......
> 
> It is quite natural to have grievances in mind if one has an empty stomach or lesser means to support his livelihood.Similar situation can be seen in a much much more magnified manner in the northern areas of Pakistan or almost whole of Pakistan where most of the taliban suicide bombers and mercenaries are actually unemployed and brainwashed youth.
> 
> Most of the unemployment issue in Kashmir can be traced back to the militancy issues which ruined the tourism based industries back in the 90s and early half of this decade.While the militancy issue has been well taken care of by the Indian army,it takes time to rebuild an economy,specially if it is based mainly on tourism and horticulture..............



Yes there is a difference Between the way I & you think.I said you to choose one option from the three & when you saw that your point have been proved wrong.you started to derail the debate & turned away from the point by posting facts & figures. 

You use Facts & Figures when you see that there is no air left in your point & you use Facts & figures to distort from your stance smartly.

Well nothing new this behaviour is very common in majority of Indian population on Internet.And this behaviour show up when they see similar situation like you. 

Now tell me what these facts & figures have to do with Situation in *"Indian Occupied Kashmir"* & the *States of India*.

Now if you will look thoroughly at your post you will see that you yourself has denied the fact that unemployment is an issue.

You said that Kashmiris were well employed in the past & there was no issue of miliitancy it just started in90's.
*Now if kashmiris were so called Well employed,Well earned happily living people & the militancy started in 90's then What caused that militancy??? .*
*If there was no problem of unemployment then why kashmiris started the Independence movement against India.*
*Why they turned against the Indian Occupation???*
Ever thought about that 

You will never answer this question but the answer of this question is that unemployment is not an issue in kashmir.*The cause of this movement is Ideology.They can earn by even living in Indian occupation BUT they dont want to live under Indian occupation,Under Indian brutalities because they want to join another nation which is very similar to them.They share comon beliefs, common culture & are very own to them. 
So my friend this is called Ideology & this is the isssue in kashmir.*
I am glad that you yourself have proved your point wrong 



> Exactly point me out the post where I show my disagreement....
> 
> As I have said before,I think that the naming convention is not entirely right.The list provides us with data of categorization of countries based on certain parameters.The country with a higher propensity of not fulfilling the parameters goes up in the list.The simple presence of name of any country does not mean that it is actually a failed state.
> 
> That means if England is at #161 then it is not necessarily a failed state,but the country which features among top 10 has failed significantly on social,economical and political grounds.
> *You should be more concerned with yourself*.With a nation in the state of a civil war,external debt more than 3 times of forex reserve and rampant corruption in between,*I dont really see much to rejoice about*.............


Here they are


> Pakistan is at no 10?? Thats a bit of surpise. I was kind of expecting it to be 50-55





> I somehow am not able to convince myself on the true defination of their failed states...
> 
> What are France, Spain doing there??? Myanmar is at 16th while Pakistan is at 10????....England is at 161 and Australia is at 169??
> 
> This is a complete wishlist and a BS article from some wiki source..





> i didnt expect pak,srilanka,egypt,israel




Are you so much brain washed by your BIASIN Media that you didn't hasitate a bit from stepping away from your stance.Or i think you guys can do EACH & EVERY THING when it comes to trolling 

About bold part Why we should'nt rejoice.
*We are right now concerning about ourselves but they are the one who are more concerned about ourselves.*
*Kashmiris & Pakistanis are a family*.
*They always struggle hard to be a part of us & Only people who consider other people family or part of their own goes to such extent of even after knowing that their other family members are in trouble thay still want to join with them. *
*Only people who consider some people family members or part of thier own do Such a struggle like this to join their family members so that they can together fight the problems faced by their family*.

*Now when we have family members like this why should we concern about our problems.Once we will complete our family we will fight the problems together & with Unity.*
By the way 
The change is written on the wall. 
& its only in the betterment of you people of realising it soon otherwise you people have to suffer the consequences.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

syedtalha said:


> PAKISTANIS ARE GIVING TOO MUCH *FREEDOM OF SPEECH* TO INDIANS HERE ON THIS FORUM



Thats the reason for this forum being popular among Indians than their own forums.In fact popular all over globe.



> . ACT IN YOUR INTERESTS, *BAN ALL INDIANS* EXCEPT THOSE WHO ARE SENSITIVE TO THE CONCERNS OF KASHMIRIS.


I can only LOL on this,and yeah! i'm being insensitive.




> BOYCOTT BOLLYWOOD COMPLETELY, IT IS AGAINST YOUR RELIGION, YOUR COUNTRY, YOUR MORAL VALUES, AND YOUR INTERESTS


You"ll fit in here perfectly.




> ... YOU ARE PLAYING WITH OUR AND YOUR MARTYRS BLOOD
> RESTRICT FOREIGN FUNDING TO YOUR MEDIA CHANNELS... THEY HAVE BEEN CORRUPTED TO THE CORE IN THE NAME OF "PRESS FREEDOM"
> TAKE ACTIVE STEP WITH RESPECT TO KASHMIR... ORGANIZE PUBLIC SYMPATHY FOR KASHMIRIS IN YOUR MOSQUES, CHURCHES, TEMPLES, ETC
> MAKE PAKISTAN STRONGER, ELECT YOUR GOVERNMENT WISELY,


Pakistan needs citizens like you.




> To my Indian comrades on this thread WE HAVE NOTHING AGAINST INDIA, BUT AGAINST INDIAN OCCUPATION OF KASHMIR, please understand the human angle of the problem, we may be pro pakistanis, or pro russians, or pro chinese, or whatever, what do you care... leave us, and let us rot, we will take care of ourselves



We too have no problem if you are pro-*what so ever*.

As long as you support/aid/carry out attacks on Indian citizens(Hindu pandits) in your state,you will face consequences.

PS:mods need an IP check here
thanks in advance.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

DGMO said:


> And that is enough for one of the main parties to the dispute - India.
> 
> There will not be a change or shift in territory brother, as much as one side can see the advantages, this will not happen.



Territorially India still ends up with the more advantageous position, historically, since Pakistan will likely give up its claim to Junagadh, and India ends up with Hyderabad, which would have possibly gone to Pakistan had India not invaded and annexed it.

Technically India is still making out like a bandit in terms of the territories it has annexed through force.


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## justanobserver

Bombensturm said:


> You"ll fit in here perfectly.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan needs citizens like you.



Considering his avatar is is of Gen. Zia Ul Haq he'll fit in just wonderfully.




> PS:mods need an IP check here
> thanks in advance.


Naah he's probabaly from Kashmir, one of the radical Islamists 



> BOYCOTT BOLLYWOOD COMPLETELY, IT IS AGAINST YOUR RELIGION, YOUR COUNTRY, YOUR MORAL VALUES,

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## Gentle Typhoon

This forum is degrading at very rapid pace, before I joined this forum I was active reader and there used to be good debates, no trolling.

Now this forum is all about EGO. So many senior members left forum, Only Sparklingway's and T-Faz are ray of hope.

Ban serves no purpose!

I do agree there is room for use of criticizing each other as a legitimate part of debate, but with proper format, civil manner, source link.

Changing thread title doesnt change reallity. Member who spend 4-5 hour daily on PDF, get emotionally attached. We are not on govt pay for spending time on this forum. Its natural inquisitive behavior.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Patrician said:


> *This is what is called misinterpretation of facts.* Let me post that survey for you which I actually posted in another thread:
> 
> 
> A few important points to note,
> 
> *1. Kashmiris' are themselves divided about what they want.
> 2. 68% in the valley say that " India should give kashmir control over everything except defence, foreign affairs and communication. This clearly means that those 68% can compromise with India retaining overall control. Yet again, 66% in the valley say "Complete freedom for entire J&K as a seperate country".*
> 
> Two thing becomes very clear,
> 
> *1. Valley and only valley wants independence but even they could be satisfied with things like greater autonomy with India giving up control for everything except defence, foreign affairs and communication. GoI is game for that.
> 2. Nobody wants to join Pakistan*
> 
> Regards
> 
> Peace


You are reading too much into the response to that one question. The adage of 'lies, damn lies and statistics' comes to mind. 

The Kashmiris are currently occupied by India, within that reality, if someone proposes better living conditions and self-rule for them, of course they will agree to it. But the question does not establish whether living under those conditions is also an acceptable option to 'Azadi' or 'plebiscite', which is the point you are trying to make from that poll.


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## NWO

A Pak-Indo thread. This is now officially a trolling thread.


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## NWO

astodome said:


> recently 18 Kashmiris killed,maybe this is the answer for hosting pakistani flag,
> and now whole Kashmir on curfew..


Wait a minute, I thought the protesting was only occurring in one part of Kashmir. Wouldn't the rest of Kashmir be free to do whatever they want?


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## Hulk

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> You are reading too much into the response to that one question. The adage of 'lies, damn lies and statistics' comes to mind.
> 
> *The Kashmiris are currently occupied by India*, within that reality, if someone proposes better living conditions and self-rule for them, of course they will agree to it. But the question does not establish whether living under those conditions is also an acceptable option to 'Azadi' or 'plebiscite', which is the point you are trying to make from that poll.



If that is the case even Azad Kashmir is occupied with Pakistan. Not having riots of protest does not change the fact that they were never asked of their opinion on staying with Pakistan. Calling it Azad is biggest farce as it by no means Azad.


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## indiaworldpower

syedtalha said:


> *PAKISTANIS ARE GIVING TOO MUCH FREEDOM OF SPEECH TO INDIANS HERE ON THIS FORUM. ACT IN YOUR INTERESTS, BAN ALL INDIANS EXCEPT THOSE WHO ARE SENSITIVE TO THE CONCERNS OF KASHMIRIS.
> BOYCOTT BOLLYWOOD COMPLETELY, IT IS AGAINST YOUR RELIGION, YOUR COUNTRY, YOUR MORAL VALUES, AND YOUR INTERESTS... YOU ARE PLAYING WITH OUR AND YOUR MARTYRS BLOOD
> RESTRICT FOREIGN FUNDING TO YOUR MEDIA CHANNELS... THEY HAVE BEEN CORRUPTED TO THE CORE IN THE NAME OF "PRESS FREEDOM"
> TAKE ACTIVE STEP WITH RESPECT TO KASHMIR... ORGANIZE PUBLIC SYMPATHY FOR KASHMIRIS IN YOUR MOSQUES, CHURCHES, TEMPLES, ETC
> MAKE PAKISTAN STRONGER, ELECT YOUR GOVERNMENT WISELY,
> 
> DO YOU ALL PAKISTANI BROTHERS AGREE ON THIS OR NOT.??
> To my Indian comrades on this thread WE HAVE NOTHING AGAINST INDIA, BUT AGAINST INDIAN OCCUPATION OF KASHMIR, please understand the human angle of the problem, we may be pro pakistanis, or pro russians, or pro chinese, or whatever, what do you care... leave us, and let us rot, we will take care of ourselves *



We don't care whether you rot or not. You can get Kashmiris but not Kashmir.


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## NWO

Say, does anyone have info on the demographic of the protesters? Indian members claim they are just young and out of work, and that's why they're protesting. But the Pakistani members claim that they educated and the young age indicates how the new generation is also rising against Indian rule.


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## Hulk

While reading through post here, one thought came to my mind. The demand of plebiscite can only be made if decent number of people asks for it. IMO that number should be minimum 50&#37;. Let's try some math here.

1/3rd of Kashmir is with Pakistan where there is no demand for Plebiscite, considering portion with China being barren rest 2/3rd is with India.

So out of hundred 66 are with India.

Assuming 45% is Jammu and Ladhak and 55% (On higher side is with valley)
So out of 100 29.7 is Jammu and Ladhak and 36.3 is valley
Assuming 10% in Jammu and Ladhak and 70% is Valley wants freedom 
2.97 + 25.41 = 28.38 % (On higher side)

So only 28.38% maximum is asking for plebiscite way off from minimum 50% required.

Note: - The demand for Plebiscite should come from Azad Kashmir too if we are looking to count them in. If they are not saying anything implies they do not care. And for plebiscite It is required you ask for it.


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## FreekiN

oh... oh god...thats beautiful.


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## DGMO

Valiant_Soul said:


> How do you think the government could be flexible?


That is the $64million question. I'd be sitting in tomorrow's CCS meeting if I knew 

But I think approaching the talks with the drop of preconditions attached might be a start. Go to Srinagar and don't do things at arms length. Request a meeting with all political leaders, but mainly the separatists. 

It'd be a great way to say for MMS or anyone from the Cabinet 'I came all the way to Srinagar to hold talks, informal and with no set agenda, I came to listen, to express my sorrow and regret at the loss of life'. 

These shouldn't be empty words of course, but India isn't stupid to realise that the people within the Valley are slipping away at a much greater rate than ever before. 

I'm staggered that no-one from the Centre has taken the initiative and headed up to Kashmir to be there in person, do their best to have talks. Just letting this run and run, snowball out of control has got us to where we are - in limbo.


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## Valiant_Soul

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Technically India is still making out like a bandit in terms of the territories it has annexed through force.



I am posting here again, what I posted back a few pages back, concerning your case of Junagadh, and why India cannot be termed occupier. 



> Originally Posted by AgNoStIc MuSliM
> More nonsense - how on earth does that passage change the fact that you have no justification for calling Junagadh's accession to Pakistan 'illegal and immoral', or the fact that the Maharajah was already fighting a rebellion against his dictatorial and discriminatory rule in Kashmir, BEFORE the Tribal's entered the conflict.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Before you accuse India of double standards, please be informed of the pretexts of these events. Read this(from Wikipedia):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Muslim Nawab of Junagadh, Muhammad Mahabat Khanji III, whose ancestors had ruled Junagadh and small principalities for some two hundred years, decided that Junagadh should become part of Pakistan, much to the displeasure of the people of the state, an overwhelming majority of whom were Hindus. The Nawab acceded to the Dominion of Pakistan on 15 August 1947. Pakistan accepted this on 13 September. *When Pakistan confirmed the acceptance of the accession in September, the Government of India was outraged that Muhammad Ali Jinnah could accept the accession of Junagadh despite his argument that Hindus and Muslims could not live as one nation.*[1] Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel believed that if Junagadh was permitted to go to Pakistan, it would exacerbate the communal tension already simmering in Gujarat. The princely state was surrounded on all three sides by India, with an outlet to the Arabian Sea. The unsettled conditions in Junagadh had led to a cessation of all trade with India and the food position became precarious. The region was in crisis and the Nawab was forced to flee to Karachi with his family fearing for his life and established a provisional government with his followers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Now if you think we should put the same logic to Kashmir, then FYI we did, and agreed to a plebiscite. But it never happened due to mis-adventures of Pakistan. Pakistan never kept its side of the bargain for the plebiscite to happen.
> 
> Read this (from Wikipedia as well):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ranbir Singh's grandson Hari Singh had ascended the throne of Kashmir in 1925 and was the reigning monarch at the conclusion of British rule in the subcontinent in 1947. As a part of the partition process, both countries had agreed that the rulers of princely states would be given the right to opt for either Pakistan or India or  in special cases  to remain independent. In 1947, Kashmir's population was 77% Muslim and it shared a boundary with Pakistan. On 20 October 1947, tribesmen backed by Pakistan invaded Kashmir.[5] The Maharaja initially fought back but on 27 October appealed for assistance to the Governor-General Louis Mountbatten, who agreed on the condition that the ruler accede to India.[6] Once the papers of accession to India were signed, Indian soldiers entered Kashmir with orders to stop any further occupation, but they were not allowed to expel anyone from the state. India took the matter to the United Nations.*The UN resolution asked Pakistan to vacate the areas it has occupied and asked India to assist the U.N. Plebiscite Commission to organize a plebiscite to determine the will of the people. Pakistan refused to vacate the occupied areas.*
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Valiant_Soul

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Enter into tripartite negotiations with Pakistan and give the Kashmiris (Valley) a means to exercise their right to self-determination so that it no longer is a reason for protest.
> 
> Listening to Indians talk about the issue is like listening to a half-blind fellow trying to figure out where the elephants are, while standing between the legs of one ...



Is it always coincidence that you fail to notice what you should notice? The right to self-determination is not an option on the table. The segregation of Kashmir from India is unacceptable and unjust. Unacceptable officially, and unjust because it is a flawed vision and divisive for humanity.

Listen to what the PM has said. Talks can only happen within the purview of the constitution. So your option is already closed, has been closed since 47 and will remain so. Just like DGMO said, it is the internal matter of India and can only be resolved within itself. 

When India says Kashmir is a bilateral issue between India in Pakistan, it means in the context of P O K and J & K, not J & K alone. J & K is not an issue of Pakistan, so as DGMO suggested, Pakistan should stop poking its nose in internal matters of India. As it already has, and so should members of this forum follow their country's official line.


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## Valiant_Soul

> That is the $64million question. I'd be sitting in tomorrow's CCS meeting if I knew
> 
> But I think approaching the talks with the drop of preconditions attached might be a start. Go to Srinagar and don't do things at arms length. Request a meeting with all political leaders, but mainly the separatists.
> 
> It'd be a great way to say for MMS or anyone from the Cabinet 'I came all the way to Srinagar to hold talks, informal and with no set agenda, I came to listen, to express my sorrow and regret at the loss of life'.
> 
> These shouldn't be empty words of course, but India isn't stupid to realise that the people within the Valley are slipping away at a much greater rate than ever before.
> 
> I'm staggered that no-one from the Centre has taken the initiative and headed up to Kashmir to be there in person, do their best to have talks. Just letting this run and run, snowball out of control has got us to



You should know what happened to Omar Abdullah when he went to express his grief in a hospital. Ministers cannot just storm into their place, unless they express their desire to come to the table. 

Gestures, of the kind you suggest, are no longer adequate, in fact they never were. For the talks to be held, an agenda is previously decided, and the GOI can never include the subject of Kashmir independence from India and hence no such talks can take place.

It is all a matter of who will blink first. And we know that the government has all the means and justifications to hold to its stand.


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## somebozo

So is up for the argument of Islamic flag versus Pak flag?
One of them even has a six pointed star so we can have a parallel arguments of some new kind of flag!

Pakistani media is not giving much coverage because most of the private channel owners have been comfortably compensated by Indian lobby with deposits in their Dubai bank accounts.

Most of the opposers of Indian rule are educated to semi-educated Kashmiris with releatives abroad. Many have comes into contact with citizen of AJK and appraise the way Pakistan has preserved Kashmiri identity. Having a handful of AJK friends, I can tell they dont look or feel like mainstream Pakistani at all. They have their own distinctive way of conversing, dressing and interacting. I feel sorry for their plight. They are quick to correct their political nationality by mentioned themselves as "Azad Kashmiris"


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## foxbat

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *"There is a sense of 'how do we as a democracy deal with this?'*
> 
> That is pretty easy to answer. As a democratic State whose Governor General made final accession conditional to a plebiscite, as a State whose leadership promised the Kashmiris time and time again that they would be able to determine their future through a plebiscite, as a State that committed to a plebiscite in the UNSC to the international community and to the other party to the dispute, Pakistan, as a State that endorsed the idea of plebiscite as paramount in disputed accessions through its own occupation and annexation of Junagadh through plebiscite, India must implement the committed plebiscite in one form or another, resolving both the grievances of the Kashmiris and the dispute with Pakistan in one stroke.
> 
> True nations are not built upon forced occupation and annexation of peoples and their lands, true nations are built from various peoples coming together to willingly form a pact of nationhood. India's argument of holding on to Kashmir despite the wishes of its people and its violated commitments is the Colonialist and Nazi vision of a State.



so UN certified disputed status or not, the issue here is nations being built on people coming together and not occupation. So wouldnt it be nice if the same lense is applied to other separatist movements demanding independence as well. Isnt it?

So why would Pakistan help Sri Lanka getting rid of LTTE, and there are a bunch in Pakistan as well. And then there is Tibet and the Muslim dominated province of China.

And I saw you making comments about double standards of India in another thread.. hmmm...

Reactions: Like Like:
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## mikkix

syedtalha said:


> *PAKISTANIS ARE GIVING TOO MUCH FREEDOM OF SPEECH TO INDIANS HERE ON THIS FORUM. ACT IN YOUR INTERESTS, BAN ALL INDIANS EXCEPT THOSE WHO ARE SENSITIVE TO THE CONCERNS OF KASHMIRIS.
> BOYCOTT BOLLYWOOD COMPLETELY, IT IS AGAINST YOUR RELIGION, YOUR COUNTRY, YOUR MORAL VALUES, AND YOUR INTERESTS... YOU ARE PLAYING WITH OUR AND YOUR MARTYRS BLOOD
> RESTRICT FOREIGN FUNDING TO YOUR MEDIA CHANNELS... THEY HAVE BEEN CORRUPTED TO THE CORE IN THE NAME OF "PRESS FREEDOM"
> TAKE ACTIVE STEP WITH RESPECT TO KASHMIR... ORGANIZE PUBLIC SYMPATHY FOR KASHMIRIS IN YOUR MOSQUES, CHURCHES, TEMPLES, ETC
> MAKE PAKISTAN STRONGER, ELECT YOUR GOVERNMENT WISELY,
> 
> DO YOU ALL PAKISTANI BROTHERS AGREE ON THIS OR NOT.??
> To my Indian comrades on this thread WE HAVE NOTHING AGAINST INDIA, BUT AGAINST INDIAN OCCUPATION OF KASHMIR, please understand the human angle of the problem, we may be pro pakistanis, or pro russians, or pro chinese, or whatever, what do you care... leave us, and let us rot, we will take care of ourselves *



Brother we don't need to ban the Indians what we need is to open their minds and filled their hearts with justice and equality...


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Valiant_Soul said:


> I am posting here again, what I posted back a few pages back, concerning your case of Junagadh, and why India cannot be termed occupier.



Your post does not raise any questions that have not been answered already. Under the legal framework governing accessions agreed upon between the ML, Congress and the British, there was no consideration given to a nation's ideology. If there had been, then the only States that had a choice of acceding to Pakistan would have been Muslim majority States.

So this is a patently flawed argument on your part, and stands debunked.

As for the demilitarization issue, that question has also been addressed in the UNSC resolutions sticky towards the end (last ten pages or so, in particular my exchange with Bandit and Toxic) please read through it. The demilitarization of the territory was contingent upon negotiations conducted by the UN appointed commissions and rapporteurs and would be based on whatever proposals they came up with that were accepted by both sides, in particular India. India, AFAIK, rejected all of them, leading to the impasse in demilitarization and implementation of the UNSC resolutions.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

foxbat said:


> so UN certified disputed status or not, the issue here is nations being built on people coming together and not occupation. So wouldnt it be nice if the same lense is applied to other separatist movements demanding independence as well. Isnt it?


Yes, and in the case of the territories comprising Pakistan and most of the territories comprising India, that compact was entered into at the time of partition. For example, I support the Indian action against Khalistani separatism since the Sikhs threw in their lot with the Indian Union at the time of partition and made no demand for an independent State as did the Muslims led by the ML. The same applies in the case of Balochistan.

Kashmir however was suffering from a violent rebellion against its autocratic ruler before partition, which made any decisions he made, especially given his actions to suppress and persecute the majority Muslims in the State, suspect in terms of any compact he would make with the Indian State. 


> So why would Pakistan help Sri Lanka getting rid of LTTE, and there are a bunch in Pakistan as well. And then there is Tibet and the Muslim dominated province of China.
> 
> And I saw you making comments about double standards of India in another thread.. hmmm...


I can only speak to Pakistan, India and Kashmir - given their relevance to me as a Pakistani and the unresolved disputes - you can take up the Tamil and Xinxiang issue with the Sri Lankans and Chinese respectively.

As for double standards, the qualifying argument I made in the first part of this post is one I have made repeatedly - perhaps you failed to notice or have deliberately ignored it.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

DGMO said:


> That is the $64million question. I'd be sitting in tomorrow's CCS meeting if I knew
> 
> But I think approaching the talks with the drop of preconditions attached might be a start. Go to Srinagar and don't do things at arms length. Request a meeting with all political leaders, but mainly the separatists.
> 
> It'd be a great way to say for MMS or anyone from the Cabinet 'I came all the way to Srinagar to hold talks, informal and with no set agenda, I came to listen, to express my sorrow and regret at the loss of life'.
> 
> These shouldn't be empty words of course, but India isn't stupid to realise that the people within the Valley are slipping away at a much greater rate than ever before.
> 
> I'm staggered that no-one from the Centre has taken the initiative and headed up to Kashmir to be there in person, do their best to have talks. Just letting this run and run, snowball out of control has got us to where we are - in limbo.



And if they ask for Plebiscite, or adjustment of borders in some way?

Again, you can call for 'talks/Kutcheries/open fora/dialog' etc. all you want, but if you are not prepared to actually listen and deal with the demands, then what?


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## foxbat

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Kashmir however was suffering from a violent rebellion against its autocratic ruler before partition, which made any decisions he made, especially given his actions to suppress and persecute the majority Muslims in the State, suspect in terms of any compact he would make with the Indian State.



So lets abstract this up a little bit. 

Replace the Maharaja of Kashmir with British.
Replace Kashmir with the British India.
India was in the middle of a violent rebellion against its ruler at the time that ruler decided on the fate of the subcontinent by partitioning the country. So would you hold the decision of British suspect as well?

I dont think so. Both our countries are independent because of those decisions only.

So its basically an arguement of convinience that is discounting the decisions of the ruler of the princely state who was authorised by the same British who granted freedom to the sub continent and created Pakistan. Just because those decisions go against Pakistani POV, they dont become irrelavant. 

That way almost every thing can be second guessed.


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## foxbat

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And if they ask for Plebiscite, or adjustment of borders in some way?
> 
> Again, you can call for 'talks/Kutcheries/open fora/dialog' etc. all you want, but if you are not prepared to actually listen and deal with the demands, then what?



The point here is flexibility.. Not capitulation to undemocratic demands.. Democracy as in the country and not state. As I read somewhere on this forum, democracy is the majority decision of all the residents of a country on an issue and not of a subset only.

As a matter of fact, the concept of plebiscite in Kashmir is undemocratic, till the constitution of India recognizes that state as a part of India.


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## DGMO

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And if they ask for Plebiscite, or adjustment of borders in some way?
> 
> Again, you can call for 'talks/Kutcheries/open fora/dialog' etc. all you want, but if you are not prepared to actually listen and deal with the demands, then what?


We don't know what they will ask for as the term 'azaadi' hasn't been explicitly explained from what I've read. It seems the separatists don't know what this means. 

Then what you ask? Well, it's what we have now - a stalemate. Valiant_Soul has touched on it, and so have I in previous posts - it's all a matter of who will blink first.

The preconditions are in place for both sides. Both seem to be non-negotiable. In that case, we get the status quo: killings and protests.

I think this has gone beyond even taking steps like rescinding AFSPA. I doubt gestures such as those (which once looked meaningful) can pave the way for peace or normalcy.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

hmm....

interesting you mention state department as well as the best funded intel agency in the world....wish they were on the ''same page'' today as much as they were on the same page on spring of 2003 

by the way, i'll need your further analysis on Azad Kashmir since you speak with such authority, and conviction!








p.s. I know that not all Americans think that way; please for God's sakes read my post properly. I have a lot of respect for the U.S. though I do have some resevations about its foreign policy in middle east and other regions as well. It seems that many (more educated) Americans are dis-illusioned as well. Look at the approval ratings on Afghan war (compare 2001/02 to today )


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## Patriot

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> hmm....
> 
> interesting you mention state department as well as the best funded intel agency in the world....wish they were on the ''same page'' today as much as they were on the same page on spring of 2003
> 
> by the way, i'll need your further analysis on Azad Kashmir since you speak with such authority, and conviction!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> p.s. I know that not all Americans think that way; please for God's sakes read my post properly. I have a lot of respect for the U.S. though I do have some resevations about its foreign policy in middle east and other regions as well. It seems that many (more educated) Americans are dis-illusioned as well. Look at the approval ratings on Afghan war (compare 2001/02 to today )


He might be one of those American who could not locate Iraq on Map or who linked 9/11 with Iraq.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

foxbat said:


> So lets abstract this up a little bit.
> 
> Replace the Maharaja of Kashmir with British.
> Replace Kashmir with the British India.
> India was in the middle of a violent rebellion against its ruler at the time that ruler decided on the fate of the subcontinent by partitioning the country. So would you hold the decision of British suspect as well?
> 
> I dont think so. Both our countries are independent because of those decisions only.


A very poor analogy since it is easily debunked. The Muslims of British India protested and pushed their case through the platform of the ML, Jinnah and other political parties and leaders. As such, the decision of the majority of the residents of the lands that came to comprise Pakistan was heard - in essence it was a plebiscite given that the voters supported the ML, Jinnah and/or allied parties.

In J&K we never had any such dynamic of the Maharajah being 'elected' into office, or even being given a vote of confidence in some way, by his residents to make a decision of accession on their behalf. On the other hand he led a reign of repression and open discrimination against the State's Muslims.


> So its basically an arguement of convinience that is discounting the decisions of the ruler of the princely state who was authorised by the same British who granted freedom to the sub continent and created Pakistan. Just because those decisions go against Pakistani POV, they dont become irrelavant.
> 
> That way almost every thing can be second guessed.


It is not an argument of convenience at all - India herself set the precedent for plebiscite being the deciding factor in disputed accessions by virtue of holding a plebiscite in Jungadh after invading and occupying it, and herself committing to plebiscite in accepting the instrument of accession, and accepting the UNSC resolutions in the UN.


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## RollingStones

Patriot said:


> He might be one of those American who could not locate Iraq on Map or who linked 9/11 with Iraq.



Though I am not one of those, I agree that plenty of my fellow citizens would not know how to spell Iraq or know where it is on the map. Again, if you want our help you'll need to learn how to appeal to us. Joking about us wont get you anywhere. If we wnat your help we need to leqrn who you are and how you do things. The same goes for us. No point criticizing why we are this way and wy you arent that way.

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## bandit

civfanatic said:


> Govt /NC using its influnce to alter/sabotage the nature of movement by indulging in selective arson . The protests overwhelmingly were against India and India used qurann burning incident to its advantage .



The govt used their influence by ordering arson and then their forces shot them to stop it.

Don't you see how stupid that argument sounds?

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## Hulk

Well bunch of fools I can say. Since there was no HR violations before 1989 it can be said HR violations are fallout of insurgency. Since part of people of Kashmir valley supported militancy they are equally or more responsible for the fallout. All these guys are doing is wasting time, money and education etc. At the best they are contributing to anarchy in Kashmir valley. Hence they are fools IMO " Mobs does not have their brain, they genrally follow direction of others". 4 districts even if 100&#37; united cannot ask for freedom. The sooner they understand the better. Also by making sure they are driven by religious fundamentalism world is not going to support them become another SWAT.


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## Tuahaa

RollingStones said:


> BS... I am an American and I can tell you exactly what Americans think about ISlam and Hinduism. We adopted Yoga from India. Most of the CEOs and influential people here are totally swayed by the dharmic and buddhist principles of India. American see Indians very positively despite them taking our jobs. On the other hand, firebrand Islam is really hated here. Islam has hardly done anything for America. There have been no cultural imports and the isolationist ideologies of Islam means that the religion is largely confined to people who have ghettoized themselves to begin with over here. But moderate Islamic people have done well here and many of them are extremely rich. Get them to talk about Muslim brotherhood and organize movements for independence for Kashmir and we will listen. Get the Saudis to tell us that it is important for us to get India to free Kashmir and we will listen. None of the Islamic people we respect tell us any of this. Why should we listen to Pakistanis, who we do not agree with in the first place? I am really getting annoyed by Pakistanis thinking that people who disagree with them are Indians. We in America do NOT agree with Pakistanis and your culture and your version of Islam. Pakistanis in America these days call themselves Indians or South Asians. There is a problem with Pakistan's image in America. Please understand that and try and correct that, instead of trying to indulge in PR exercises.



Muslims have not contributed to the world? These are all Muslim inventions:

1001 Inventions - Discover The Muslim Heritage In Our World | 1001 Inventions

And just talking never works with America. What happened to Israel?


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## AR

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *THIS IS THE VIDEO: *
> 
> YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.



What the hell is this??????

What the launcher of this video trying to show??

What is the proof that these are Indian Soldiers??.... similar language is also spoken in our neighbour country...
I Can say the video is build in that country and not in India

What is the motive of giving background music as Indian National Anthem in throughout the vedio???

By watching the vedio I can say this video is filmed by a phone camera (low quality video) .. How can any Indian personnel(IF ANY) post it on You tube and applying tune of National anthem if he is really an indian????

If this is not posted by any indian how this video goes in the hands of anti-Indians?? 

IN ALL I CAN SAY THAT IT IS JUST A PROPAGANDA TO DEFAME INDIAN ARMY BY OUR ENEMY...

It is understood who is behind this.... as enough computer work has been done on it by giving subtitles... and that is not possible in India itself

*as this video insults my national anthem and hurts the sentiments of all Indians I would request the mods to close this thread and also post reported*


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## Awesome

*Kashmir Is Locked Down, but Bloodshed Continues: New York Times*



> SRINAGAR, Kashmir &#8212; Since Sunday, when the government announced a round-the-clock curfew, everyone &#8212; men, women, teenagers, toddlers &#8212; has been locked in. There is no telling when the curfew will be lifted, and there is no leaving.
> 
> On Tuesday the government announced that for the next three days at least, all flights going in and out of Srinagar, Kashmir&#8217;s summer capital, were suspended, for the first time in more than a decade.
> 
> &#8220;It&#8217;s suffocating,&#8221; said Sajid Iqbal, 26, a lawyer, who has spent most of the last three months at home. &#8220;It&#8217;s collective punishment. Every Kashmiri is being forced to stay inside.&#8221;
> 
> Even ambulances are having trouble getting past security checkpoints. On Sunday evening, security forces seized and tore the curfew pass of an ambulance driver and threatened him with a caning. By the time he returned to the hospital after a whole day of transporting patients and staff members, he switched off his phone and hid for a while, shaking with anger and fright.
> 
> The lockdown is the latest iteration of a cycle of stone-pelting street protests by Muslims and lethal crowd-control measures by the state security forces that has upended daily life since June, leaving nearly 90 people dead.
> 
> Even with the curfew, this week has been one of the bloodiest. The authorities said that at least 18 people and one security officer had been killed Monday, with more than 70 people wounded, as separatist protesters clashed with Indian paramilitary officers. Minor clashes continued Tuesday.
> 
> Schools have been effectively closed for the past three months. Crucial college exams have been postponed. Grocery stores and pharmacies can open only in the small windows between strikes and curfews. A summer football season, the rare bit of leisure for Kashmiri boys, has been suspended.
> 
> Young people with computers at home are glued to their screens all day, chronicling violence in their neighborhoods, arguing about Indian rule, spreading rumors. Lawyers are on strike, meaning that even when judges can show up in court, they can do no more than defer cases.
> 
> Yet there is no end in sight. Already, the separatist faction led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani has announced a protest calendar for the next 10 days. It calls for a series of protests, on the streets and on social-networking sites like Facebook, and it specifies days and hours in which shops are to be opened and when Kashmiris are to partake in &#8220;cleanliness drives.&#8221; Its most provocative gesture is a call for protests &#8220;up to the destinations of army establishments.&#8221;
> 
> So far protests have focused on state and federal police installations. Calling civilians to confront the Indian Army is a marked escalation and a likely invitation to more bloodshed.
> 
> No one &#8212; not Kashmiri separatist leaders, nor Kashmiri politicians nor the Indian government in New Delhi &#8212; can agree on a road map to restore normalcy. Instead, the government simply expanded the curfew on Tuesday and sent more security forces to the valley.
> 
> The government&#8217;s move followed an especially lethal outburst on Monday. Like fresh logs in a fire came reports of the desecration of a Koran in the United States, broadcast on an Iranian television station here and spread across the Internet.
> 
> More protests broke out across the region. Christian schools were burned, something Muslim leaders in India condemned. Government offices were destroyed. All told, 18 people were killed Monday, including a police officer. For Kashmir, it was the bloodiest day of the year.
> 
> &#8220;I&#8217;ve never seen anything like this,&#8221; said Shamima Keng, 48, a schoolteacher who was a mother of two young children when the armed insurgency swept through Kashmir in the early 1990s. &#8220;The people coming out on the road, they are fearless. They don&#8217;t fear death. That is very scary.&#8221;
> 
> Under a strictly enforced curfew since early Sunday morning, much of Srinagar is like a ghost town. Security forces are posted on virtually every block. The streets are littered with shards of glass, bricks, embers and uncollected garbage.
> 
> At Lal Chowk, the city&#8217;s protest center, lies the detritus of a recently renovated bell tower. At Jehangir Chowk, one of the city&#8217;s most vital intersections, stands the shell of what used to be the office of the Kashmiri police crime branch. It was burned Saturday.
> 
> Police vans roar down the wide boulevards. A litter of puppies have the run of a once-bustling street of Kashmiri shawl and saffron shops. Birds break the silence, and occasionally, there is the whistle of a police officer, or the sound of gunfire to scatter an assembling crowd. Two small children were let out on to the sidewalk in front of their home with tricycles, only to be shooed back in by a federal police officer in riot gear.
> 
> The fruits of rage and retaliation are on display at the Sher-i-Kashmir Institute of Medical Sciences hospital. A bullet has blown the brains out of a 23-year-old&#8217;s head. A pellet gun has ripped through the lower intestines of a 22-year-old auto-rickshaw driver.
> 
> *An 18-year-old was shot in the legs as he defied police orders and joined a funeral procession for a slain protester. He said he was not scared and would join another protest as soon as his legs healed. &#8220;I&#8217;ll go again,&#8221; he said with the bravado of a teenage boy. &#8220;You die only once.&#8221; Most of the wounded, hospital officials guess, are teenage boys.*
> 
> And this rage presents an unenviable problem for parents of teenage boys.
> 
> *Samina Mufti was 18 when she flirted with the anti-India protests that broke out during her youth. She did not tell her parents, and she soon gave it up to pursue an education. Her son is 15 now and insists on joining the anti-India protests of the day. She knows she cannot stop him. Even if she tried, he would not listen. In her heart is a mixture of emotions. &#8220;Scared as well as proud&#8221; is how she put it.*
> 
> Jim Yardley contributed reporting from New Delhi.

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## U-571

bharat image is going bad again, not that bharat after all now


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## civfanatic

Patrician said:


> Thank you. Thank you very much for being so sensible. There are not many on  who are.
> 
> Based on media reports, I can tell you that there is some heavy brainstorming going on inside the GoI right now. We will see some action (like selectively remiving AFSPA, of which I'm personally in favor) very soon, very soon indeed.



Sensible in your Dictionary ....Who acquises to any Indian demand .
Plebicite.....No ....India does not agree 
Chenab formula....No....India does not agree
Lets kill Kashmiris...Yes .....India agreess
Lets(India) take lahore....yes....India agrees
DGMO I hope your hot line with Indian forgien office is alright so you can enlighten us about what else India does agree or diagree

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## Je suis de retour

Tuahaa said:


> Muslims have not contributed to the world? These are all Muslim inventions:
> 
> 1001 Inventions - Discover The Muslim Heritage In Our World | 1001 Inventions
> 
> And just talking never works with America. What happened to Israel?



I dont think 1001 inventions form even 1&#37; OF total inventions in last 1000 years or do they?
Anyhow video was quite a dramatized one.


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## bc040400065




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## syedtalha

*Wooh...
Considering the amount of initial response by Indians here, if feel this is a India Defence Forum.... or some bharat rakshak. So many RSS trolls. Now I don't want a QUOTE BY QUOTE reply from any insanely patriotic Indian, I am seeking answers from Pakistanis. That's why I suggest reducing the number of indians here to a decent few. 

Listen, I have debated this a zillion times, and I can tear down your each and every argument like anything, but I seriously don't want to loose 1 full day fighting on internet with some zealot, and in the end all he does is jerk off all over his keyboard with his nationalistic orgasm. If there is any room for decent debate, Indians, please be logical, for once.
& to the admin... please give these kids an Indian flag in the smilies... at least they'll get to play with it. They don't seem to have enought of the crazy jumping banana, or whatever it is.
*

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## syedtalha

Bombensturm said:


> As long as you support/aid/carry out attacks on Indian citizens(Hindu pandits) in your state,you will face consequences.
> 
> PS:mods need an IP check here
> thanks in advance.



I can assure you that does not happen... now that should logically imply that you should stop worrying about us, about your hindu friends here. we may be pro whatever we are, please leave us alone to rot, you can give our hindus in kashmir some preferential treatment if you want to, give them money, etc, or take them as migrants, or whatever you want, we wont and we dont interfere in their lives, or choices., just leave kashmir to it's fate, there is not a single strategic gain by maintaining an army here, as far as I know, in laddakh, siachen, etc, it is counterproductive, other than a few observation posts into china and pakistan, there is no strategic value, & if at all there is any stratgetic value, it is counterbalanced by the costs, which are enormous for a country struggling with hunger, homelessness, AIDS, and poverty... i'm afraid i'm debating here again, i did not want to do this in the first place, but now that i did, why waste the effort, i hope you end this after answering this one, coz i dont want an endless debate, it is really useless. 
thanks in advance
P.S
you don't want to see my IP, at most it'll get you to NIB banglore, or Jalandhar probably, not beyond.


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## Donatello

The guy is reporting from New Delhi. He probably doesn't even know how bad the situation is......this is getting outta hand!


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## civfanatic

DGMO said:


> And as I have said countless times, what will a 'diplomatic offensive' achieve?
> 
> Don't the OIC have TV's or read the press reports? How loudly is the P5 speaking out? How loudly have the EU spoken out in the past 2 months? Nothing, zilch.
> 
> India whether we like it or not has the clout to tell those nations 'keep your nose out, this is an internal matter, messy as it is, it's internal'. And those nations are obliging.
> 
> So let's say we go on a diplomatic offensive. Do you honestly feel we'll get cries of condemnation from Washington and Brussels? No we won't. What we will get are toned down criticism such as 'we would urge for all sides to demonstrate maximum restraint and avoid any injury or loss to civlian life' etc etc. What do we do then, everyone in the FO give each other high-fives? Pop the champagne corks? Does that stop the suffering of the Kashmiri's? Will India take heed? Nope.
> 
> The solution lies in India to stop dithering, and to do something. But as the AFP report touches on, there is 'paralysis'in New Delhi. Whatever it proposes is shot down by the separatists and is seen as insufficient. So the cycle of violence is here to stay for the foreseeable future - barring any drastic change in tune from the GoI.




Why world at large would condemn India's behavior when Pakistan which is genuine party to dispute does not have courage /will to take up this issue. The fact is that world at large would remain silent unless Pakistan makes an effort to tell the world that India can't be allowed to get away genocide in Kashmir .Somewhere in your posts you had mentioned that Kashmiris know we (Pakistani's) care but what kind of care is that which does not even compel you to call even an OIC meeting. The absence of Kashmir from International consciousness is a reality but that reality is not fact of nature like Gravitation. This reality need not be accommodated to and can be improved if efforts are made.

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## Patrician

Man yet another Kashmir thread and yet another India/Indian-bashing thread

*@syedtalha you cude could have utilised so many other threads on kashmir already open. Opening newer and newer threads on largely similar lines only makes job of other member difficult. It's very difficult to keep track of so many similar threads.

@mods, please take note, this is nothing but redundancy of thread*s.


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## civfanatic

syedtalha said:


> *Wooh...
> Considering the amount of initial response by Indians here, if feel this is a India Defence Forum.... or some bharat rakshak. So many RSS trolls. Now I don't want a QUOTE BY QUOTE reply from any insanely patriotic Indian, I am seeking answers from Pakistanis. That's why I suggest reducing the number of indians here to a decent few. Otherwise it ends up like a pillowfight with a prostitute, or the washroom a gay bar in Ohio. Indian's are all about smoking cheap bheedi, and a constant smell of curry from every possible hole on their body.
> Listen, I have debated this a zillion times, and I can tear down your each and every argument like anything, but I seriously don't want to loose 1 full day fighting on internet with some zealot, and in the end all he does is jerk off all over his keyboard with his nationalistic orgasm. If there is any room for decent debate, Indians, please be logical, for once.
> & to the admin... please give these kids an Indian flag in the smilies... at least they'll get to play with it. They don't seem to have enought of the crazy jumping banana, or whatever it is.
> *



Ignore the trolls you have to find some way of communicating efffectively without getting effected by Indian trolls .....Keep the members here updated about Kashmir .


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## syedtalha

@civfanatic


tangmarg toll is not yet complete... friends say there are many missing and bodies lying in open filed where curfew has been imposed to prevent burial. God knows weather this is true or not. i hope not. but official toll of 13 sep is 18.


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## civfanatic

syedtalha said:


> @civfanatic
> 
> 
> tangmarg toll is not yet complete... friends say there are many missing and bodies lying in open filed where curfew has been imposed to prevent burial. God knows weather this is true or not. i hope not. but official toll of 13 sep is 18.



Baye maine pay cham ...Kashir manz chus


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## syedtalha

civfanatic said:


> Ignore the trolls you have to find some way of communicating efffectively without getting effected by Indian trolls .....Keep the members here updated about Kashmir .



ase cha ne eech fersath ke yeman seeth karav bahacx. aes vanav poz, pate boozetan ya mate boozetan. 

Taeth sund foto chuy sajan wallah

ciao

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## Patrician

civfanatic said:


> Why world at large would condemn India's behavior when P*akistan which is genuine party to dispute does not have courage /will to take up this issue.* The fact is that world at large would remain silent unless Pakistan makes an effort to tell the world that India can't be allowed to get away genocide in Kashmir .Somewhere in your posts you had mentioned that Kashmiris know we (Pakistani's) care but what kind of care is that which does not even compel you to call even an OIC meeting. The absence of Kashmir from International consciousness is a reality but that reality is not fact of nature like Gravitation. This reality need not be accommodated to and can be improved if efforts are made.



Open your eyes my friend. Pakistan of today is in no position whatsoever to rake up Kashmir at an international level.

It's not about will/courage, it's about capability. They did help you all these years when they could. Now they can't, simply can't.
Their economy is in doldrums. They have millions to care for after such devastating floods. They have terrorism and bomb blasts happening all over the place. They have so many internal concerns to look after that it will be unfair on your part to expect them to help you. At this point it won't be in Pakistan's best interests to jump onto the Kashmir bandwagon. In fact it will be suicidal.

Pakistani govt. of late is becoming more and more sensible and realistic with respect to Kashmir. Are you?

Your only hope lays with India. Learn to compromise. You can't have everything.

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## Awesome

nomi007 said:


> suicide attacks is best reaction if Kashmir-es do this


Strongly disagree, they should continue with civil disobedience with using non-lethal force only against the Indians.

The slaps, the kicks, the stones falling on Indian faces, and most importantly the demands for freedom are far more damaging to India's hold on Kashmir than making the Indians seem like victims by killing them. Not even guns should be used.

This is what makes the kashmiri struggle so unique. These aren't extremist people. These aren't tribal folks. These are highly urbanized, educated, modern thinking folks who are simply sick of India.

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## civfanatic

Patrician said:


> Your only hope lays with India. Learn to compromise. You can't have everything.


 


Deep jis ka sirf mehellaat hi main jalay,
Chand logon ki khushyon ko lay ker chalay,
Wo jo saye main har maslihat kay palay;
Aisay dastoor ko,
Subh e bay noor ko,
*Main naheen maanta,
Main naheen jaanta.*
The light which shines only in palaces
Burns up the joy of the people in the shadows
Derives its strength from others&#8217; weakness
That kind of system,
like dawn without light
I refuse to acknowledge,
I refuse to accept

Main bhee kha&#8217;if naheen takhta e daar say,
Main bhee Mansoor hoon, keh do aghyaar say,
Kyun daraatay ho zindaan ki divar say,
Zulm ki baat ko,
Jehel ki raat ko,
Main naheen maanta,
Main naheen jaanta.

I am not afraid of execution,
Tell the world that I am the martyr
How can you frighten me with prison walls?
This overhanging doom,
this night of ignorance,
I refuse to acknowledge,
I refuse to accept

Phool shaakhon pay khilnay lagay tum kaho,
Jaam rindon ko milnay lagay tum kaho,
Chak seenon kay silnay lagay tum kaho,
Iss khulay jhoot ko,
Zehan ki loot ko,
Main naheen maanta,
Main naheen jaanta.

&#8220;Flowers are budding on branches&#8221;, that&#8217;s what you say,
&#8220;Every cup overflows&#8221;, that&#8217;s what you say,
&#8220;Wounds are healing themselves&#8221;, that&#8217;s what you say,
These bare-faces lies,
this insult to the intelligence,
I refuse to acknowledge,
I refuse to accept

Tum nay loota hai sadyon hamara sakoon,
Ab na hum per chalay ga tumhara fasoon,
Chara gar main tumhain kiss tara say kahoon?
Tum naheen charaagar,
Koi maanay magar,
Main naheen maanta,
Main naheen jaanta.

For centuries you have all stolen our peace of mind
But your power over us is coming to an end
Why do you pretend you can cure pain?
Even if some claim that you&#8217;ve healed them,
I refuse to acknowledge,
I refuse to accept.

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## foxbat

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> A very poor analogy since it is easily debunked. The Muslims of British India protested and pushed their case through the platform of the ML, Jinnah and other political parties and leaders. As such, the decision of the majority of the residents of the lands that came to comprise Pakistan was heard - in essence it was a plebiscite given that the voters supported the ML, Jinnah and/or allied parties.
> 
> In J&K we never had any such dynamic of the Maharajah being 'elected' into office, or even being given a vote of confidence in some way, by his residents to make a decision of accession on their behalf. On the other hand he led a reign of repression and open discrimination against the State's Muslims.
> 
> It is not an argument of convenience at all - India herself set the precedent for plebiscite being the deciding factor in disputed accessions by virtue of holding a plebiscite in Jungadh after invading and occupying it, and herself committing to plebiscite in accepting the instrument of accession, and accepting the UNSC resolutions in the UN.



You probably did not get what I was refering to. I am refering to your previous comment that because the maharaja of Kahmir was being revolted against, his decisions of that time are not relevant. The analogy I am putting forward is that when British granted India independence, even they were being revolted against. Does that make their decision of partitioning India also irrelevant? After all like Maharaja of Kashmir, they were also never elected. The comparison is not between the ML and the Maharaja, but between the British and him. Understand that before partition, there was not plebiscite in India to validate the partition since had that happened, the majority of the Indians would not have agreed.

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## Fasih Khan

*Kashmir voices: 'We are angry' *

The violence began on 11 June after police killed a demonstrating student People in Indian-administered Kashmir tell the BBC News website of their growing resentment against Indian rule, after a summer of dissent.

Police shot dead 18 civilians on Monday in the deadliest day since the latest wave of protests erupted three months ago, bringing the number of those killed to more than 80.

The latest demonstrations were sparked by reports of a Koran being publicly desecrated in the US.

A curfew is in place, and was extended on Tuesday to cover fresh areas as thousands more federal police were deployed across the valley. 

*Shams Irfan, freelance journalist, Pampore* 

Shams Irfan says the underlying anger is down to the unlawful and cruel Indian rule in Kashmir I live in Pampore, a small town not far from Srinagar and famous for its saffron fields. Yesterday three people were killed by the police during protests against the desecration of the Koran. 

I left my hometown to go to Delhi for work a couple of days ago, but when I spoke to my father on the phone I could hear gunfire. In the middle of our conversation, a shell landed close to our front door. My cousin was injured. Someone I have known since my childhood was also killed. 

I am a journalist working for a weekly magazine. There have been huge restrictions on all Kashmiri media in the past few months. Our magazine was shut down again for two days. 

They say the newspapers are creating the problems, but newspapers only tell the truth and that is what they don't want to hear.

We have to be careful not just about what we write in our articles, but also what we say on Facebook and other social networking sites. People have been rounded up by local security forces for saying things on Facebook.

Kashmiris are sentimental people. If anything happens around the world with the Koran - they will be against it. 


India and Pakistan have fought over Kashmir for six decades now But the underlying anger is really against the unlawful and cruel Indian rule that has been pushing the otherwise peaceful people of Kashmir towards such "violent" protests. It is against the unnecessary fortification of Kashmir by Indian troops that causes real friction. 

Why do we need a one million-strong Indian army here? To fight against the estimated 500 active militants who haven't done anything major for the past three or four years? Those who get killed are not Pakistan-sponsored terrorists, they are normal people like you and me. They are not on the streets because some jihadi in Pakistan is guiding them, they are out because they are fed up with the suffocating Indian rule. 

*Dr Ishiyaq Gellani, medical doctor, Srinagar*

I observed the atrocities of the police forces right in front of my house yesterday. A man on a motorcycle who must have gone out to buy food for his family was beaten because he didn't stop and didn't answer the question where he was going. I think he probably didn't hear them. 

He was thrown to the ground and beaten up. We were just looking from the window, too scared to leave. 


The Indian government said it was "deeply distressed" by the violence We are full of fear. 

I was afraid they might notice me as I was watching and they might break into my house. These kinds of things are routine here. This happened to my neighbours - they forced their way in. There was no particular reason, I don't know what they were looking for. They do it to harass the people, to make them scared. 

We are stuck in the house, we can't leave because of the curfew. Nobody can leave. People can't even go to the shop and everybody is staying indoors.

I am a doctor and I have a pass for essential service so I should be able to go out, but they still wouldn't let me leave the house. I can't even get milk for the kids.

The security forces are supposed to be there for our security, but they are killing us and that is what makes us angry. They have no respect. They even kill young children. 

The protests were peaceful. None of the protesters fired a gunshot. We have had militancy before, but they are no longer active. There isn't a single gun here. 

Yet they are not firing in the air, they shoot at the people directly. They aim at their heads and bodies. 

Protests are not going to stop. Everyone is angry. Even the small kids, who wouldn't normally care, know everything now. 

*Khuram Shah, accountant, Srinagar *

I work in the UK, but I've been on holiday in Kashmir for the past couple of months. This is my birthplace, I grew up here.

I am interested in photography and I went out yesterday to the protests just so that I can take photos of what is happening.

I saw the clashes between local people and the police, I saw people being killed and a local factory being burnt. I have got all this evidence of the past few days. 


More than 80 protesters have died this summer in anti-India demonstrations People gathered to protest against the [desecration] of the Koran. It started as a small rally of about 200 people, but it grew into a few thousand. Protesters started throwing stones at the forces and that provoked the clashes.

I am stuck at home now. We can't go out. But despite the curfew there have been further clashes today. Earlier, people had gathered on the road towards the airport, about 200 yards from where I live. People were coming out of the mosque, gathering in one place. I nipped out to see what was happening. 

People are very angry. They are angry with the government. Kashmir does not belong to India. But this issue has been taken to a new level. The government uses force to implement their strategies and that has been causing major discontent here over the past few months. 

The government of Kashmir has closed local TV channels. They cannot broadcast the news and people are getting more and more angry because of that. 

And now because of the Koran issue, Kashmiris have gone ballistic. 

The government of India has spectacularly failed to solve the Kashmir issue.

BBC News - Kashmir voices: 'We are angry'


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## Fasih Khan

*Kashmir voices: 'We are angry' *

The violence began on 11 June after police killed a demonstrating student People in Indian-administered Kashmir tell the BBC News website of their growing resentment against Indian rule, after a summer of dissent.

Police shot dead 18 civilians on Monday in the deadliest day since the latest wave of protests erupted three months ago, bringing the number of those killed to more than 80.

The latest demonstrations were sparked by reports of a Koran being publicly desecrated in the US.

A curfew is in place, and was extended on Tuesday to cover fresh areas as thousands more federal police were deployed across the valley. 

*Shams Irfan, freelance journalist, Pampore* 

Shams Irfan says the underlying anger is down to the unlawful and cruel Indian rule in Kashmir I live in Pampore, a small town not far from Srinagar and famous for its saffron fields. Yesterday three people were killed by the police during protests against the desecration of the Koran. 

I left my hometown to go to Delhi for work a couple of days ago, but when I spoke to my father on the phone I could hear gunfire. In the middle of our conversation, a shell landed close to our front door. My cousin was injured. Someone I have known since my childhood was also killed. 

I am a journalist working for a weekly magazine. There have been huge restrictions on all Kashmiri media in the past few months. Our magazine was shut down again for two days. 

They say the newspapers are creating the problems, but newspapers only tell the truth and that is what they don't want to hear.

We have to be careful not just about what we write in our articles, but also what we say on Facebook and other social networking sites. People have been rounded up by local security forces for saying things on Facebook.

Kashmiris are sentimental people. If anything happens around the world with the Koran - they will be against it. 


India and Pakistan have fought over Kashmir for six decades now But the underlying anger is really against the unlawful and cruel Indian rule that has been pushing the otherwise peaceful people of Kashmir towards such "violent" protests. It is against the unnecessary fortification of Kashmir by Indian troops that causes real friction. 

Why do we need a one million-strong Indian army here? To fight against the estimated 500 active militants who haven't done anything major for the past three or four years? Those who get killed are not Pakistan-sponsored terrorists, they are normal people like you and me. They are not on the streets because some jihadi in Pakistan is guiding them, they are out because they are fed up with the suffocating Indian rule. 

*Dr Ishiyaq Gellani, medical doctor, Srinagar*

I observed the atrocities of the police forces right in front of my house yesterday. A man on a motorcycle who must have gone out to buy food for his family was beaten because he didn't stop and didn't answer the question where he was going. I think he probably didn't hear them. 

He was thrown to the ground and beaten up. We were just looking from the window, too scared to leave. 


The Indian government said it was "deeply distressed" by the violence We are full of fear. 

I was afraid they might notice me as I was watching and they might break into my house. These kinds of things are routine here. This happened to my neighbours - they forced their way in. There was no particular reason, I don't know what they were looking for. They do it to harass the people, to make them scared. 

We are stuck in the house, we can't leave because of the curfew. Nobody can leave. People can't even go to the shop and everybody is staying indoors.

I am a doctor and I have a pass for essential service so I should be able to go out, but they still wouldn't let me leave the house. I can't even get milk for the kids.

The security forces are supposed to be there for our security, but they are killing us and that is what makes us angry. They have no respect. They even kill young children. 

The protests were peaceful. None of the protesters fired a gunshot. We have had militancy before, but they are no longer active. There isn't a single gun here. 

Yet they are not firing in the air, they shoot at the people directly. They aim at their heads and bodies. 

Protests are not going to stop. Everyone is angry. Even the small kids, who wouldn't normally care, know everything now. 

*Khuram Shah, accountant, Srinagar *

I work in the UK, but I've been on holiday in Kashmir for the past couple of months. This is my birthplace, I grew up here.

I am interested in photography and I went out yesterday to the protests just so that I can take photos of what is happening.

I saw the clashes between local people and the police, I saw people being killed and a local factory being burnt. I have got all this evidence of the past few days. 


More than 80 protesters have died this summer in anti-India demonstrations People gathered to protest against the [desecration] of the Koran. It started as a small rally of about 200 people, but it grew into a few thousand. Protesters started throwing stones at the forces and that provoked the clashes.

I am stuck at home now. We can't go out. But despite the curfew there have been further clashes today. Earlier, people had gathered on the road towards the airport, about 200 yards from where I live. People were coming out of the mosque, gathering in one place. I nipped out to see what was happening. 

People are very angry. They are angry with the government. Kashmir does not belong to India. But this issue has been taken to a new level. The government uses force to implement their strategies and that has been causing major discontent here over the past few months. 

The government of Kashmir has closed local TV channels. They cannot broadcast the news and people are getting more and more angry because of that. 

And now because of the Koran issue, Kashmiris have gone ballistic. 

The government of India has spectacularly failed to solve the Kashmir issue.

BBC News - Kashmir voices: 'We are angry'

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## Fasih Khan

*Longing for the Day When India Perishes*

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## trident2010

Fasih Khan said:


> *Longing for the Day When India Perishes*

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## Je suis de retour

Self-Delete

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## Patrician

Fasih Khan said:


> *Longing for the Day When India Perishes*



Only longing won't help. It never helped anybody throughout human history. *One has to act!*

P.S. oh and when you decide to act, do keep in mind whom you will be acting against...

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## doctor_who

first of all its not not army who is protecting kashmir. 

secondly indian security forces are doing a great job in crushing terror activity and intentions. 

every indian is proud of them.

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## moha199

doctor_who said:


> first of all its not not army who is protecting kashmir.
> 
> secondly indian security forces are doing a great job in crushing terror activity and intentions.
> 
> every indian is proud of them.



problem with this is that for you guys every kashmiri is becoming terrorist! even old young, kids, women its sad i hope this world come to peace!


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## lionheart1

moha199 said:


> problem with this is that for you guys every kashmiri is becoming terrorist! even old young, kids, women its sad i hope this world come to peace!



expect pakistan nobody is talking about it , and it shows your credibility . and also show the might of India,

we are proud to be an Indian and we are proud have a army like Indian army


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## doctor_who

moha199 said:


> problem with this is that for you guys every kashmiri is becoming terrorist! even old young, kids, women its sad i hope this world come to peace!



people with weapon and ready to kill are terrorist , even if a kid holding a gun or waist bomb or throwing stone - is shot dead by force it will clapped by indians. ( because he is just a evil created by his parents who must be get rid of asap ).

not every kashmiri is terrorist, people who want to come in peace make their voices heard, are welcome but people with violent intention will be crushed.


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## notsuperstitious

Fasih Khan said:


> huh Snakes ... Good at face and attacking at back H***d*s. Smelly Creatures.



Good, now you are directly adressing the core issue. The REAL two nation theory!


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## Areesh

Indian Jatt said:


> Its good that Indian army is working hard to keep eliminating the terrorist Pakistani army in disguise of the mlitants infiltrating in Kashmir from across the border.



I can't believe that even after getting mature you guys believe in these bed time fairy tales.


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## Omar1984

I was watching this on television today. They were talking about indian brutalities in India Occupied Kashmir and what Pakistan should do to help the Kashmiri people. Hurriyat Leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq was also speaking in this show from IOK.

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## Omar1984

Indian Jatt said:


> Its good that Indian army is working hard to keep eliminating the terrorist Pakistani army in disguise of the mlitants infiltrating in Kashmir from across the border.



Yes the entire population in India Occupied Kashmir are Pakistani army in disguise

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## EjazR

*Full texts of PM?s speech at all-party meet on Kashmir - The Times of India*
"I welcome you all to this meeting of leaders of political parties. 

Before I invite the participants to offer their valuable suggestions on various vexed issues relating to Jammu and Kashmir, let us offer our prayers for all those who have lost their lives in the recent violence in the State. Let us also wish early recovery to those who have suffered injury. I propose that we rise and observe a minute's silence as a mark of our respect to the departed souls.

Friends, we meet in sadness. Sadness over the loss of lives, sadness over the injuries suffered by the people, the police and the security personnel. Sadness over the huge disruption in the daily lives of the common man and the financial losses suffered by hardworking ordinary people like tour operators, apple farmers, daily wage earners and houseboat owners. I am sure all of us share a deep sense of distress over the unfortunate sequence of events, during and after Eid, particularly in the context of a reported act by a misguided person thousands of miles away.

I have said this earlier and I say it again  the only path for lasting peace and prosperity in Jammu and Kashmir is that of dialogue and discussion. It is indeed tragic that some of our people have forsaken this path during the recent days. I was shocked and distressed to see young men and women- even children- joining the protests on the streets. While some of these protests may have been impulsive or spontaneous, it cannot be denied that some incidents were orchestrated by certain groups. What we have seen over the past three months must persuade us to reflect and deliberate on the way forward.

We have to talk to each other. And those who have grievances against the Government have to talk to the administration. But it is also true that meaningful dialogue can happen only in an atmosphere free from violence and confrontation. Discussions can take place only if we have calm and public order. The Central and State Governments have already appealed to the people of Jammu and Kashmir, especially the youth, to eschew violence. I reiterate that appeal. We are ready for dialogue with anybody or any group that does not espouse or practice violence. We have also told the State Government to restore peace and public order in order to create conditions congenial to a dialogue process. The Central Government will provide all possible assistance in this task.

Over the past few months and weeks, several leaders, from across the political spectrum, have spoken or written to me, on issues concerning Jammu and Kashmir, giving many useful suggestions. We also had an all-party delegation from Jammu and Kashmir that shared its views with me and my senior cabinet colleagues. As a part of this ongoing process of consultation that our Government has been following, we thought it would be in the fitness of things to also seek guidance from various political parties represented in Parliament on the complex issues that we face in Jammu and Kashmir today.

I look forward to benefitting from your wisdom, knowledge and experience as we begin the proceedings."

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## JonAsad

vaishakh4u said:


> Till then,go and have some sleep..we will call u when the day comes..but dont blame us* if u wake up in hell*..



That day i will love to wake up in Hell and make it a heaven, if you know what i mean. Radio Pakistan New Delhi


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## EjazR

*Valley fires rage, Omar feels the Delhi chill - Express India*

*Srinagar At least 17 people were killed and 131 injured today in different parts of the Valley when securitymen opened fire to break up violent protests, triggered by reports of the alleged desecration of the Koran in the United States. The demonstrations quickly turned into anti-government protests and mobs &#8212; police said at least one was led by a leader of the ruling National Conference who was later booked &#8212; torched a Christian missionary school and government buildings.*

Chief Secretary S S Kapoor and Director General of Police Kuldeep Khoda called a press conference to appeal for calm, saying reports of the alleged desecration of the Koran were not true. They said they had decided to ban the airing in Kashmir of Iranian channel Press TV which had been putting out the reports.

Tension had been mounting since Sunday night over reports of the alleged desecration. For the first time, people took to the streets even in Shia-majority Budgam. DGP Khoda blamed activists of the Syed Ali Shah Geelani-led Hurriyat faction for instigating the violence in Budgam. Khoda played intercepts of what he said was a conversation between Hurriyat Geelani activists about organising a protest in Budgam.

In Tangmarg, five persons were killed and 65 injured when police and CRPF fired after a huge crowd attacked government properties. Incidentally, the crowd was being led by local National Conference leader Ali Mohammed Sofi (65) alias Ali Sofi and his son who also addressed people in the town square before the rampage, police said. Ali Sofi is said to be close to Mustafa Kamal, former minister and uncle of Chief Minister Omar Abdullah.

When contacted, Kamal said Sofi had distanced himself from NC. &#8220;He wants best of both worlds and I am sure he is with the other camp. He belongs to the village of the local MLA&#8221;. But local legislator Ghulam Hassan Mir, who is Agriculture minister in the Omar cabinet, refuted Kamal&#8217;s claim. &#8220;He (Sofi) is with NC. He was with them during the elections. Everybody knows he does not work with me,&#8221; he said.

Police said that the crowd, after the address by Ali Sofi, torched a private school which had been opened a few years ago by the missionary Tyndale Biscoe School in Srinagar. The school building was completely gutted. A case has been registered against Ali Sofi and others for instigating the crowd.

&#8220;Activists of separatist groups were present but this massive crowd was led by Sofi,&#8221; a police officer told The Indian Express. &#8220;We pleaded with them but they did not listen. We fired tear-smoke shells and then fired in the air but it was all in vain.&#8221; Tangmarg town had been tense since a protest Sunday night. &#8220;At dawn, thousands of people came again. This time, they came from as far as Pattan and Kreeri. They came in trucks, buses and other vehicles.&#8221;

The crowd torched the building of the BDO office, court chamber, tehsildar&#8217;s residence and official vehicle, social welfare office, patwari office and two huts of the tourism department. This led to firing by securitymen. Fifteen CRPF and police personnel, including a CRPF Deputy Commandant and Tangmarg SDPO, were injured. Police arrested 25 men.

From Humhama on the outskirts of Srinagar, protesters tried to march towards Lal Chowk. Simultaneously, a large crowd attacked the BSF camp in adjoining Gogu. A shopping complex owned by PDP leader Muzaffar Beig was also targeted by the crowd who set a car ablaze &#8212; Beig&#8217;s son was trapped inside the building. Police opened fire, killing three persons.

A Tata Sumo, speeding towards Budgam hospital with the injured, knocked down policeman Devinder Singh who later died in hospital. Thirty-five-year-old Rafiqa was killed inside her house when police opened fire in Ompora village. Police said she was hit by stray bullets.

In Chrar-e-Sharief, protesters attacked a police post, a CRPF camp and burnt down two vehicles and two motorcycles. Danish Nabi of Kumar Mohalla died in police firing. In Bandipore, SP Sheikh Junaid sustained serious injuries as he tried to break up a protest. He was airlifted to Srinagar.


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## ParamVir

Never label any country's army (whether Indian or Pakisthani) as terrosist. Please ban this author.


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## Fasih Khan

To all the Ibleesee Members, I mean Indian Members If you have read the Original Content of this thread and If you had a little humanity left in your hearts you wouldn't be backing India on this Issue. You are proving that There are no ''Innocent'' casulaities in India in ''terrorist'' attacks. You are worst of the mankind. Humans (if you can be considered humans) without hearts.

Read it through and get ashamed.


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## Devianz

Fasih Khan said:


> To all the Ibleesee Members, I mean Indian Members If you have read the Original Content of this thread and *If you had a little humanity left in your hearts* you wouldn't be backing India on this Issue. You are proving that There are no ''Innocent'' casulaities in India in ''terrorist'' attacks. *You are worst of the mankind. Humans (if you can be considered humans) without hearts.*
> 
> Read it through and get ashamed.



So says the guy who made this comment


Fasih Khan said:


> *Longing for the Day When India Perishes*


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## ParamVir

Kashmir is an integral part of India. It cannot be negotiated at any cost. I donot think anybody participating in any anti-national activities can be termed inncocent. Keepup the great work Indian Army.


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## Patrician

Omar1984 said:


> I was watching this on television today. They were talking about indian brutalities in India Occupied Kashmir and *what Pakistan should do to help the Kashmiri people*. Hurriyat Leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq was also speaking in this show from IOK.



One question, has Pakistan done enough to serve its own people who are sadly so much affected by the devastating floods?

You know the answer!

You know what, people like you and your metality is the reason why there's so much hunger and poverty in the world.

You can think about Kashmiris because you don't think about the common Pakistani who's homeless, hungry and even deprived of clean drinking water because of such massive flooding.

Kashmiris are much better off than that Pakistani who is in his sorry state because people like you did not care about him.

You have the luxury to think about Kashmir. The common man on street doesn't.

How do you guys even find enough time to think about people who are out of your administrative jurisdiction and that too at the cost of those who are?

Jo hai uski kadar nahin, jo nahin hai uske peeche bhaag rahe ho!

It's so disgusting.

*Try to follow the ideals and vision of the man whose picture you so proudly display in your avatar...For a change!*

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## Kompromat

Fasih Khan said:


> *Longing for the Day When India Perishes*



I think that is none of our goals.

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## JonAsad

Patrician said:


> One question, has Pakistan done enough to serve its own people who are sadly so much affected by the devastating floods?
> 
> You know the answer!
> 
> You know what, people like you and your metality is the reason why there's so much hunger and poverty in the world.
> 
> You can think about Kashmiris because you don't think about the common Pakistani who's homeless, hungry and even deprived of clean drinking water.
> 
> You have the luxury to think about Kashmir. The common man on street doesn't.
> 
> How do you guys even find enough time to think about people who are out of your administrative jurisdiction and that too at the cost of those who are?
> 
> Jo hai uski kadar nahin, jo nahin hai uske peeche bhaag rahe ho!
> 
> It's so disgusting.



One question.. Do you think only the kashmir land is yours or that also includes Kashmiries you are killing every day? 

Both ways: tum logon ko sharam nai ati


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## Leviza

ParamVir said:


> Kashmir is an integral part of India. It cannot be negotiated at any cost. I donot think anybody participating in any anti-national activities can be termed inncocent. Keepup the great work Indian Army.



i think you need to go and learn history from start.... Kashmir is a disputed land and its not a integral part of india ..... its a lie..... 

Kashmir is on UN table and and its inda who took kashmir matter to UNO if you know.... Kashmir is of kashmiries....India captured Kashmir and if indian army didnt left kashmir again this new generation will take the matter in their hand and soon this innocent killings and people of kashmir will take guns in thier hands so be afraid of that day..

The day Kashmiries have guns in thier hand india will start saying Pakistan did that but the reality is different... ball is in india's court ...


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## Evil Flare

ParamVir said:


> Kashmir is an integral part of India. It cannot be negotiated at any cost. I donot think anybody participating in any anti-national activities can be termed inncocent. Keepup the great work Indian Army.



Not Its not ... 

Its belongs to the people of Jammu & Kashmir .. 
Its a Disputed Area Under UN & the people of Jammu & Kashmir have to right to decide for their future .... 

India is just an occupying force & no one care what India says integral part & bla bla bla


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## Je suis de retour

Leviza said:


> i think you need to go and learn history from start.... Kashmir is a disputed land and its not a integral part of india ..... its a lie.....
> 
> Kashmir is on UN table and and its inda who took kashmir matter to UNO if you know.... Kashmir is of kashmiries...*.India captured Kashmir* and if indian army didnt left kashmir again this new generation will take the matter in their hand and soon this innocent killings and people of kashmir will take guns in thier hands so be afraid of that day..
> 
> The day Kashmiries have guns in thier hand india will start saying Pakistan did that but the reality is different... ball is in india's court ...


Thats half of history and that too wrong
Pakistan captured kashmir from ruler.( It had neither consent of kashmiri people nor that of king to come)
Where as, india came on request of king (that is it didnt captured )
So there are fine fine points in history which clears the story or ends up like the case you showed.

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## Patrician

self-deleted


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## T-Faz

*Debate rationally and do not insult others.

Title changed to original title of article.*

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## Areesh

> Three dead in new Kashmir unrest
> September 15, 2010 - 7:34PM
> AFP
> 
> *Violence spread to new areas of Indian Kashmir on Wednesday, with three more protesters shot dead by police, as the government held crisis talks in New Delhi to tackle the escalating unrest.*
> 
> Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said he was "shocked and distressed" by the demonstrations engulfing the disputed Himalayan area, where 18 people died on Monday in the bloodiest day in three months of protests.
> 
> On Wednesday, police opened fire on a rally in the previously quiet town of Mendhar, a Muslim settlement in a Hindu-dominated area in the south of the region, about 210km from the town of Jammu.
> 
> "As the situation went out of control, police opened fire to disperse the mob in which three protesters were killed and at least 25 others were injured," said a police spokesman in Jammu, *asking not to be named*.
> 
> For three months, young Kashmiris have thrown stones at security forces, defied strict curfews and held anti-India rallies, resulting in clashes that have now left 91 people dead.
> 
> But since the weekend, the violence has risen in intensity, with mob attacks and arson taking place, apparently fuelled by reports about the desecration of the Koran by a small group of Christians in Washington on Saturday.
> 
> Police in Jammu said the crowd had tried to attack a Catholic school in Mendhar.
> 
> Speaking at the start of a meeting of all major political parties in New Delhi on Wednesday, Singh said dialogue was the only way out of the crisis but that peace and calm had to be restored first.
> 
> "The only path for lasting peace and prosperity in Jammu and Kashmir is that of dialogue and discussion," Singh said.
> 
> "Those who have grievances against the government have to talk to the administration," he said. "But it is also true that meaningful dialogue can happen only in an atmosphere free from violence and confrontation."
> 
> Singh, who admitted last week that he was "groping" for a response, chaired the all-party meeting at his residence, with the government under pressure to show leadership.
> 
> One measure under consideration is the partial withdrawal of a tough military law in the region, which grants the armed forces immunity and is seen as fuelling a sense of injustice for Kashmiris.
> 
> The cabinet discussed this at a meeting on Monday, but decided against taking a decision.
> 
> Politically, the ruling Congress party is hemmed in by the right-wing Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) main opposition group, which sees any concession on autonomy or security as a betrayal of the nation.
> 
> A majority of residents in Indian Kashmir favour independence of the Muslim-majority region, according to a poll at the weekend.
> 
> The prime minister warned last week that there "is no royal road to success" and that he "can't pull a rabbit out of a hat" in Kashmir, which is part of the northwestern state of Jammu and Kashmir.



Three dead in new Kashmir unrest


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## Devianz

JonAsad said:


> Just Bring it



It's usually you guys who start it. So you bring it.




JonAsad said:


> P.S... i dont think Israel gona do any thing.. dont forget the arabs,.




Same goes for China, they will supply some goodies same as what Israel did in Kargil war. They will not get into a direct confrontation with India when they are surrounded by Russia, Japan, SK and of course US. Ohh and not to mention jeopardize all their recent achievements for the sake of Pakistan.


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## EjazR

* 
Tangmarg carnage
Police chasing Sofi, Kamal calls for judicial probe*
SYED BASHARAT
SRINAGAR, Sep 14: Police has launched a man hunt for a mainstream
political worker Ali Mohammad Sofi alias Ali Kandur who according to
it instigated the mob to set ablaze the government offices at
Tangmarg yesterday.
Meanwhile, ruling National Conference senior leader and MLA, Dr Sheikh Mustafa
Kamal, today demanded a judicial probe into the Tangmarg incident,
terming it a &#8220;wider conspiracy&#8221;. 
According to reliable sources, the police at Tangmarg has registered
an FIR number 91 against Sofi under section 436, 307, 352, 336, 427,
148 and 149 CrPC. The sources said that in view of Sofi&#8217;s activities,
police was chasing him just after Eid prayers on September 11. &#8220;He had
provoked masses at Baba Reshi mosque on Eid day. Later he addressed
the gathering at Tangmarg bus stand wherein he incited people to go
on rampage,&#8221; said a senior police officer pleading anonymity. 
Meanwhile, the affiliation of Sofi with mainstream political parties
has started brewing up controversies among the two veteran political
leaders of the area&#8212;Ghulam Hassan Mir, the agriculture minister and
the National Conference leader and MLA Dr Sheikh Mustafa Kamal.
Kamal while talking to Kashmir Times demanded a judicial probe into
the Tangmarg incident saying that he smells a *** in the tragedy that
has struck his area. &#8220;The reports about Sofi&#8217;s affiliation with
National Conference are unfortunate as he left the party in 1990.
I have not seen him even in a single party meeting after 1990. He has
never been with me in any of the elections that I fought after 1990,&#8221;
Kamal said.
He added that Sofi was an active member of National Conference in 1977
but for his negative role to defame the party he was imprisoned on the
orders of Sher-e-Kashmir Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah, who had earlier
made Sofi a member of District Development Board Baramulla.
&#8220;He is reported to have had profitable relationship with some militant
organisations in the area. Besides that he is subtly working with
Ghulam Hassan Mir the agriculture minister while giving impression
that he is from the National Conference. If he was an NC worker, why
would he set ablaze government offices, incite people to go on
rampage? Even I have heard that during the present unrest some people
have been allotted illegal land in Gulmarag where they are on with
some illegal contractions. So that is why the Tehsil building in
Tangmarag was set on fire. I smell a *** in this entire episode,&#8221;
Kamal, who is the uncle of Chief Minister Omar Abdullah told Kashmir
Times.
Kamal added that from the media reports about the alleged affiliations
of Sofi with him, some &#8220;vested interests&#8221; are trying to exploit his
close relation with the Chief Minister to give an impression that
National Conference is internally a divided a lot. &#8220;See Ghulam Hassan
Mir has come through proxy. *One of his statements that only his
constituency Tangmarag has remained peaceful in the last three months
has invited the attention forces inimical to peace to destroy this
tourist resort. That is what the general impression is. Even my
information is that police resorted to firing on the people and later
allowed them to run riot in order to have some justification for their
unwanted action,&#8221; the NC leader observed.*
Omar&#8217;s uncle while demanding a judicial probe into the incident said
that some vested interests are trying to put NC in bad light and it
could be a wider conspiracy which involves people other than the local
characters.
On the other hand the agriculture minister Ghulam Hassan Mir while
talking to Kashmir Times, admitted that Sofi was working with him but
since his involvement with the formation of Peoples Democratic Party
in 1997-98 Sofi left him and returned to National Conference where he
once held the position of a Block President. &#8220;He was working with me
from 1990 t0 1997. Then he returned to NC,&#8221; Mir added.
The SHO police station Tangmarg Nisar Ahmad when contacted said that
Sofi has dismal track record. &#8220;For the last three days we have been
tracking him. He first incited the people at Baba Reshi mosque on Eid
on September 11. Later he mobilised people from adjoining areas of
Tangmarg and instigated them to go on rampage. We are hunting him and
we may arrest him soon,&#8221; said the SHO Tangmarag. When asked about his
association with NC, he said that Sofi has been working with the NC
but had left it some time back.
Meanwhile people in Tangmarg said that Sofi, a resident of Hariwatnoo
Tangamarg (the residence of agriculture minister Ghulam Hassan Mir)
has been associated with Congress, National Conference and Ghulam
Hassan Mir in the past. &#8220;He has changed his association with different
political parties from time to time but yesterday, I too was present
in the rally at Tangmarg which turned into a nightmare, Sofi didn&#8217;t
utter a word which could have incited people to go berserk and brunt
down government buildings. This is all lie,&#8221; said a local from
Tangmarag over phone.
Tangmarag was the worst affected place in valley on yesterday, where
six killings occurred and over 70 others were injured allegedly in
security forces firing when thousands of people raising anti-American
slogans against the desecration of holy Quran tried to march towards
Kunzar Tangmarg to hold demonstration.


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## RPK

Four killed, 20 injured in Jammu after Quran protests


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## EjazR

* www.outlookindia.com | Respect Their Rights *
Opinion
Respect Their Rights
The priority should be to convince the Kashmiris of our seriousness in guaranteeing respect for their human rights and dignity.
B. Raman

Reports suggest the anti-US and anti-Christian violence in J&K on September 13, 2010, was triggered off by rumours disseminated by an unlisted and unregistered TV channel of Iran
B. Raman

The situation in Jammu & Kashmir is going from bad to worse. The widespread acts of violence on the Eid day and the outburst on September 13,2010, in the wake of baseless rumours of insult to the Holy Koran in the US make one apprehend that we may reach a point of no return if we do not address the anger of large sections of the youth.Fifteen people, including a member of the security forces, were killed in different incidents on September 13--the largest number in a single day since the present trouble broke out over three months ago.

The anger is a reality. It will be totally unwise to close our eyes and ears to it. It will be suicidal to think that but for instigation by Pakistan the anger might not have acquired such dimensions. The origin of the anger and its gradual escalation were due to mishandling of the situation by the state government and by the confused response of the government of India to the situation as it has developed. Pakistan and the jhadi organisations based there are now exploiting the anger caused by perceptions of our insensitivity to violations of human rights by the security forces. Deaths of some Kashmiris in an alleged false incident involving the security forces and the total inaction of the government in the face of repeated demands for enquiries into the deaths of young Kashmiris due to use of force by the security forces against stone-throwing mobs have led to a resurgence of the alienation of growing sections of the youth.

The incidents of September 13 show two strands of anger. The first is against the governments of J&K and India due to the perceived violations of the human rights of the Kashmiris. The second , which made its first appearance in the incidents of September 13, is directed against the US because of a threat, which had emanated from a pastor with insignificant following to burn the Holy Koran on the anniversary of 9/11. He gave up his threat under political and public pressure in the US, but not before he had provided fresh oxygen to the jihadi elements in the Islamic world.

To what extent the anger of the Kashmiris against the US was spontaneous and to what extent it was insitigated by Al Qaeda and pro-Al Qaeda elements based in the ****** region? It is difficult to answer this question, but one has to note with some concern that the anger against the US seen in the streets of Srinagar on September 13 was part of the pattern one had been seeing in the last few days in the ****** region ever since the pastor issued his threat. We had seen similar anger against the US in the streets of Srinagar when US troops invaded Iraq in 2003. That too was part of an orchestrated pattern seen in different cities of Pakistan. But the anger subsided after a few days. Will it subside similarly now? One has to keep one's fingers crossed. It is important to note and deny promptly and effectively all rumours being disseminated from the ****** region by Al Qaeda, the Talibans and their affiliates regarding insults to Islam.

One should remember there was an escalation in violence in J&K in the days and weeks before the visit of President Bill Clinton to India in April 2000. We should expect a similar escalation in the period before the forthcoming visit of President Barack Obama to India in November.There is a strong possibility that the kind of violence that one has been seeing since the Eid day, which is different from the kind of violence that one had been seeing before Eid would be sought to be kept up till the visit of Mr Obama. The violence before Eid was largely spontaneous. The violence since Eid is increasingly orchestrated and inspired from outside-- inspired not only by the state of Pakistan, but also by all the jihadi organisations based there.

If we had promptly acted against the initial incidents and against those members of the security forces against whom allegations of staging a false encounter had been made, the situation might not have deteriorated to the extent it has. There are now vicious winds of anger and hatred blowing across Kashmir, helped by our failure to understand that we are now facing a different kind of situation in J&K and by our reluctance to act against the members of the security forces against whom allegations of human rights violations were made.

The situation has so badly slipped out of control that one does not know how to retrieve it. Retrieve one must for restoring normalcy in J&K. Even now, the governments of J&K and India give the impression of a total lack of lucidity in analysing and assessing the situation. The Kashmiris are not agitating for jobs. They are not agitating against the Armed Forces Special Powers Act. They are not agitating against the Army. They are not agitating against our counter-terrorism machinery, which had effectively countered Pakistan-sponsored terrorism in the state. They are agitating against the state's law and order machinery for alleged disproportionate use of force against stone-throwing mobs. They are agitating against the government of India for not intervening to protect the human rights and the self-dignity of the Kashmiri Muslims.

*The first response of the government of India should have been to ensure respect for the human rights of the Kashmiris. Even now, despite the deterioration in the situation which has made the increasing resort to law and order methods unavoidable, our priority should be to visibly stop violations of human rights. The National Human Rights Commission should be asked to look urgently into the various complaints that have been made and convince the Kashmiris of our seriousness in guaranteeing respect for their human rights and self-dignity.*

If we don't do this and keep thinking that we can restore normalcy by creating jobs and by making statements of our willingness for a dialogue, we are in for a nasty surprise in J&K. The credibility of the government of India in J&K is very low. It is seen as a government which only acts under pressure. It is seen as a government which is totally confused.

*It has to show it means business--business in restoring law and order; business in respecting the human rights and self-dignity of the Kashmiris and business in preventing Pakistan and its jihadi organisations from exploiting the situation.*


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## Patrician

Asim Aquil said:


> But when Kashmiris choose they are still going to choose Pakistan over India.
> 
> Moreover, we are also okay with the *Kashmiris choosing Independence* to form a united Kashmir. As long as they choose on their own, what India gives them is not justice, its imposition of its will.



Which brings us back to the discussion we had in the "Why did Pakistan get 'independence' option removed" thread.

I hope you do remember Asim

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...have-kashmir-independence-option-removed.html
*
DO TAKE A LOOK*


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## ares

JonAsad said:


> One question.. Do you think only the kashmir land is yours or that also includes Kashmiries you are killing every day?
> 
> Both ways: tum logon ko sharam nai ati



Stop worrying about ppl dying in India, and start worrying about ppl dying in Pakistan, because we are not going to worry for them.

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## Valiant_Soul

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Your post does not raise any questions that have not been answered already. Under the legal framework governing accessions agreed upon between the ML, Congress and the British, there was no consideration given to a nation's ideology. If there had been, then the only States that had a choice of acceding to Pakistan would have been Muslim majority States.



You should be aware that a legal framework in complete agreements of the concerned parties were never reached (Read more here). 

And ideology was the grand basis of partition, the only one actually. The ML chose both the ideology for division and also the regions. 

"Muhammad Ali Jinnah espoused the Two Nation Theory and led the Muslim League to adopt the Lahore Resolution[7] of 1940, demanding the formation of independent states for Muslims in the East and the West of British India. "

"The province of West Pakistan was created on 14 October 1955 by the merger of the provinces, states and tribal areas of the western wing. The province was composed of twelve divisions and the provincial capital was established at Lahore. The province of East Bengal was renamed East Pakistan with the provincial capital at Dhaka. The federal government moved in 1959 from Karachi to Rawalpindi (provisional capital until Islamabad was finished), whilst the federal legislature moved to Dhaka."

This was the agreed geography of Pakistan. The princely state, though free to choose the new dominions, were subject to boundary conditions, which the Nawabs of Junagadh and Hyderabad did not took into consideration.

Based on the ideology of Pakistan creation and the regions demanded by Pakistan, India was just in keeping Junagadh and Hyderabad. And there were other "at-that-time" circumstances as well that well justifies these actions, for example the rise of communal violence, future governance, etc.

The same logic was applied to Kashmir and India accepted the case of plebiscite.



> As for the demilitarization issue, that question has also been addressed in the UNSC resolutions sticky towards the end (last ten pages or so, in particular my exchange with Bandit and Toxic) please read through it. The demilitarization of the territory was contingent upon negotiations conducted by the UN appointed commissions and rapporteurs and would be based on whatever proposals they came up with that were accepted by both sides, in particular India. India, AFAIK, rejected all of them, leading to the impasse in demilitarization and implementation of the UNSC resolutions.



As is relevant from that thread, India's acceptance to plebiscite was subject to pre-conditions. And an agreement to those pre-conditions were never reached by both sides. The issue hangs in limbo and so the best thing to do now is to live with what we have.

Further stretching the idea of India-Pakistan partition, that Muslims and Hindus who want to exchange sides can do so, the solution to current Kashmir valley crisis become quite clear. Those who want to go to Pakistan can do so, but demand of a separate state is neither feasible nor acceptable, even to the whole of Kashmir (as only the valley wants separation and even they are divided).


----------



## Areesh

civfanatic said:


> Deep jis ka sirf mehellaat hi main jalay,
> Chand logon ki khushyon ko lay ker chalay,
> Wo jo saye main har maslihat kay palay;
> Aisay dastoor ko,
> Subh e bay noor ko,
> *Main naheen maanta,
> Main naheen jaanta.*
> The light which shines only in palaces
> Burns up the joy of the people in the shadows
> Derives its strength from others weakness
> That kind of system,
> like dawn without light
> I refuse to acknowledge,
> I refuse to accept
> 
> Main bhee khaif naheen takhta e daar say,
> Main bhee Mansoor hoon, keh do aghyaar say,
> Kyun daraatay ho zindaan ki divar say,
> Zulm ki baat ko,
> Jehel ki raat ko,
> Main naheen maanta,
> Main naheen jaanta.
> 
> I am not afraid of execution,
> Tell the world that I am the martyr
> How can you frighten me with prison walls?
> This overhanging doom,
> this night of ignorance,
> I refuse to acknowledge,
> I refuse to accept
> 
> Phool shaakhon pay khilnay lagay tum kaho,
> Jaam rindon ko milnay lagay tum kaho,
> Chak seenon kay silnay lagay tum kaho,
> Iss khulay jhoot ko,
> Zehan ki loot ko,
> Main naheen maanta,
> Main naheen jaanta.
> 
> Flowers are budding on branches, thats what you say,
> Every cup overflows, thats what you say,
> Wounds are healing themselves, thats what you say,
> These bare-faces lies,
> this insult to the intelligence,
> I refuse to acknowledge,
> I refuse to accept
> 
> Tum nay loota hai sadyon hamara sakoon,
> Ab na hum per chalay ga tumhara fasoon,
> Chara gar main tumhain kiss tara say kahoon?
> Tum naheen charaagar,
> Koi maanay magar,
> Main naheen maanta,
> Main naheen jaanta.
> 
> For centuries you have all stolen our peace of mind
> But your power over us is coming to an end
> Why do you pretend you can cure pain?
> Even if some claim that youve healed them,
> I refuse to acknowledge,
> I refuse to accept.



Ah lovely poem bro. Indeed one of the best from Jalib. 

Thanks.


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## notsuperstitious

> More than 80 protesters have died this summer in anti-India demonstrations People gathered to protest against the [desecration] of the Koran. It started as a small rally of about 200 people, but it grew into a few thousand. Protesters started throwing stones at the forces and that provoked the clashes.



So, a bunch of peaceful people decide to protest the supposed koran burning in the US, they gather around, and they decide to throw stones that can kill and maim at the police who are there for law and order. Then they decide its a good idea to run police over in a lorry and kill them, burn govt property and churches and schools. And when police use force against these rioters, we are supposed to sympathise with them!!!

All the best with that.

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## JonAsad

ares said:


> Stop worrying about *ppl dying in India*, and start worrying about ppl dying in Pakistan.



Kashmir is not in India, get that out of your miserable system.



ares said:


> because we are not going to worry for them.


Your inhumane behavior and no care for human life is known to all of us, no need brag about it.


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## JonAsad

fateh71 said:


> So, a bunch of peaceful people decide to protest the supposed koran burning in the US, they gather around, and they decide to throw stones that can kill and maim at the police who are there for law and order. Then they decide its a good idea to run police over in a lorry and kill them, burn govt property and churches and schools. And when police use force against these rioters, we are supposed to sympathise with them!!!
> 
> All the best with that.



^^^ your rationale looks more like a bollywod script just like mumbai drama was.


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## DGMO

civfanatic said:


> DGMO I hope your hot line with Indian forgien office is alright so you can enlighten us about what else India does agree or diagree


I don't have a hotline with anyone, just one with my common sense. That helps me take a realistic and rounded view on the developments of the region.

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## notsuperstitious

JonAsad said:


> ^^^ your rationale looks more like a bollywod script just like mumbai drama was.



Yes, Mumbai was a drama and violent protests should be allowed

OR

The world banned pakistani people and organisations in the mumbai attacks case AND the same world will 'úrge restraint' in kashmir - meaning NO to violent protests.

If thats too much reality for you, choose option one. The reality won't go away, but you will sleep better

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## Patriot

And just a year or so ago Indians members where all in their proudness and arrogance stated Kashmir issue is resolved now Kashmir's love Indians etc after a small period of calm and their Foreign Minister talking with confidence on Kashmir but now everything has gone downhill again for India.All of that arrogance went down in just over 3 months.Indian took advantage of Musharraf peace loving campaign in Kashmir and stabbed us in the back through Afghanistan and BLA.Thankfully the pressure is back on India now!


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## JonAsad

fateh71 said:


> Yes, Mumbai was a drama and violent protests should be allowed



There is a real world outside bollywood and thats the reality. When ever there is an illegal occupation violent protests will occur.



fateh71 said:


> The world banned pakistani people and organisations in the mumbai attacks case AND the same world will '&#250;rge restraint' in kashmir - meaning NO to violent protests.



That para makes no sense at all. Elaborate.


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## Trac

Patriot said:


> And just a year or so ago Indians members where all in their proudness and arrogance stated Kashmir issue is resolved now Kashmir's love Indians etc after a small period of calm and their Foreign Minister talking with confidence on Kashmir but now everything has gone downhill again for India.All of that arrogance went down in just over 3 months.Indian took advantage of Musharraf peace loving campaign in Kashmir and stabbed us in the back through Afghanistan and BLA.Thankfully the pressure is back on India now!



Buddy dnt be so much happy ... Those paid protest cant make any change ... These all happens cause CM dnt have experience .. 

And Kashmir is Internal Part of India and *no one can take it from us *

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## Optimus

I stil dont get it... How can these guys be innocent civilians... Even in my are, police will shoot me If 50 guys try to burn places around and start pelting stones.... That is an obvious fact

If you cannot learn to protest without violence, agree that they are innocent civilians... they are a law and order and the police should do its duty

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## JonAsad

vaishakh4u said:


> do this forum allow this kind of insults, and how come his insulting posts are still there but the replies are deleted..if the mods want a sensible debate then please delete his posts..



you are new here, you will get used to it later, or you will unerstand.


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## Trac

JonAsad said:


> There is a real world outside bollywood and thats the reality. When ever there is an illegal occupation violent protests will occur.
> 
> 
> 
> *That para makes no sense at all. *Elaborate.



May be not for you but for others it makes lot of sense 
If any terror activity happened any where in the world you know the rest...


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## notsuperstitious

JonAsad said:


> That para makes no sense at all. Elaborate.



Can't, even if i did, you will not understand, You think mumbai attacks was a drama, only things fit for your understanding are Zaid Hamid shows.


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## JonAsad

Optimus said:


> I stil dont get it... How can these guys be innocent civilians... Even in my are, police will shoot me If 50 guys try to burn places around and start pelting stones.... That is an obvious fact
> 
> If you cannot learn to protest without violence, agree that they are innocent civilians... they are a law and order and the police should do its duty



Under an illegal occupation there is no thing as peacefull protest, imagine your self as a kashmiri, you might get the idea.


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## Trac

JonAsad said:


> Under an* illegal occupation* there is no thing as peacefull protest, imagine your self as a kashmiri, you might get the idea.



Illegal occupation ?? 
Its dispute not illegal otherwise P O K is also illegal occupation


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## JonAsad

fateh71 said:


> Can't, even if i did, you will not understand, You think mumbai attacks was a drama, only things fit for your understanding are Zaid Hamid shows.



I was getting the idea as you were saying as long as the world approves it, whether be it mumbai drama or killing of innocent people its ok. Thats why i asked you to elaborate.

Zaid Hamid who? The one whose quote is in your signature? Tells a lot about the hysteria he has created amongst you.


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## JonAsad

Trac said:


> Illegal occupation ??
> Its dispute not illegal otherwise P O K is also illegal occupation



The territory is disputed and your occupation is illegal, do you get me now Boy?

I dont see any one hosting an Indian flag in Azad Kashmir? illegal what?


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## Trac

JonAsad said:


> The territory is disputed and your occupation is illegal, do you get me now Boy?
> 
> I dont see any one hosting an Indian flag in Azad Kashmir? illegal what?



 Uncle who told you pretesteres in J&K flying your flag and dnt say Islamic flag as yours 

Just provide basic rights to people of P O K and provide them rights to elect their own gov and make free press there and then compare both Kashmir


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## IndianArmy

JonAsad said:


> The territory is disputed and your occupation is illegal, do you get me now Boy?
> 
> I dont see any one hosting an Indian flag in Azad Kashmir? illegal what?



If the territory is disputed then there is no room for Legality.... If Ours Is Illegal so is Yours son... Kashmir was Given to us by the maharajah of Kashmir Hari Singh, and Pakistan took a Piece of it by force, So If By chance there is Any Illegalities, Its Not India But Pakistan...


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## Dash

@JonAsad -



> Kashmir is not in India, get that out of your miserable system.







> The territory is disputed and your occupation is illegal, do you get me now Boy?







> ^^^ your rationale looks more like a bollywod script just like *mumbai drama* was.



Now this is where you made a mistake, you think Mumbai was a drama???...

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## JonAsad

Trac said:


> Uncle who told you pretesteres in J&K flying your flag and dnt say Islamic flag as yours



Beta. munnay, kakay... No body told me, you just have to open your eyes.

































Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/72776-best-answer-shiv-sena-threat.html

Thats Pakistani Flag.
Next time do a little research before opening your mouth.



Trac said:


> Just provide basic rights to people of P O K and provide them rights to elect their own gov and make free press there and then compare both Kashmir



Indian media brainwashed child you are, so that whats defines the occupation? 
Or its a classic case of bad governance.. so naive you are.


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## JonAsad

Dash said:


> @JonAsad -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now this is where you made a mistake, you think Mumbai was a drama???...



No, mumbai is a city 
See i can use the smilies aswell


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## TextMiner

JonAsad said:


> The territory is disputed and your occupation is illegal, do you get me now Boy?
> 
> I dont see any one hosting an Indian flag in Azad Kashmir? illegal what?


So, By that Logic if People start hosting Balochi flags all over Balochistan, as in this example

















then does Balochistan become a disputed Territory ? Yeah, right, Balochistan is not illegally occupied and pigs can truly fly !!!

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## mjnaushad

^^^
@textminre
Again started posted offtopics......

When cant argue start posting offtopics....

Anyway...That flag is BLA flag .....Not balochistans....

And again Balochistan is not disputed territory between India and Pakistan......


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## Optimus

By some peoples logic on this forum... Kashmiris should protest violently as they are occupied etc etc etc and then we kill them you say they are innocent blah blah blah ...

In short you want to Kashmiris to die


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## GUNNER

*NEW DELHI, Sept 15, 2010 (AFP)* - India's government said Wednesday it would send a cross-party delegation to Kashmir to gather information about the unrest there that has left 93 people dead in the last three months.

The decision was the main outcome from a crisis meeting of all political leaders in New Delhi chaired by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, with no consensus reached on withdrawing a tough military law in the region.

"The leaders agreed that the delegation should meet all sections of the people and gather all shades of opinion," a statement from the government said, without specifying a date for the mission.

No senior ministers have visited the Kashmir valley since the unrest began three months ago.

The right-wing Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) and the military have both argued forcefully against partially lifting the Armed Forces Special Powers Act which grants troops immunity.

"The Armed Forces Special Powers Act is not necessary," said the patriarch of Kashmir's ruling National Conference party, Farooq Abdullah, as he left the meeting.

"The places where it is necessary in the border areas, there it will continue, but the government of India will look into the ground reality and then make a decision," he added.

A senior separatist in Kashmir, Javed Mir, poured scorn on the fact-finding mission and contrasted the response to the Kashmir violence with the reaction to recent floods in the nearby region of Leh.

"When the natural tragedy struck Leh recently, every Indian who matters, be it the prime minister, the president, Sonia Gandhi and Raul Gandhi visited the grief-struck people. But no one bothers to visit Kashmir," he said.

Four more protesters were shot dead by police on Wednesday.
In the worst day of violence since protests began in June, 18 people died on Monday.


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## mjnaushad

Patrician said:


> And that's all the world was willing to do for you. So what are you going to do next?


YOu tell me.....whats next....Another 18,,,, or 36


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## JonAsad

TextMiner said:


> So, By that Logic if People start hosting Balochi flags all over Balochistan, as in this example
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> then does Balochistan become a disputed Territory ? Yeah, right, Balochistan is not illegally occupied and pigs can truly fly !!!



You cant see the difference, cant you? if we say balouchistan in internal matter of Pakistan, you cant argue about it, it will be logical. No concern what so ever of India in Balouchistan.

And if you say Kashmir is, then i will point you to UN resolutions. We fought 4 wars over kashmir, seriously how can you compare these two?

Or by your logic, Do you want me to post the Moaist flag? Khalisa flag? ULFA flag? NDFB flag? NLFT or ATTF flag? NSCN flag?or the ADF flag? You know what they are, dont you?
To be honest with you according to your logic, pigs can not only fly but they can also eat chicken.

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## Patrician

mjnaushad said:


> YOu tell me.....whats next....Another 18,,,, or 36



Let's see what GoI does. The all party meet has just ended after a mammoth 5 hour brainstorming. 

An all part parliamentary delegation is going to go to Kashmir and talk to all parties including the seperatists.

Let's wait and watch.

P.S. Ek baat honstly bataun dost? I seriously have an inkling that the Kashmir issue just got completely internalised. I mean, the current crisis has completely sidelined Pakistan as far as Kashmir and GoI's view regarding it is concerned. The indications are there for all to see. Even after so many deaths and so much shor-sharaba, so many protests and what not, hardly any govt. on the international stage has shown any willingness to back the kashmir issue be it US/UK/China/UN...That's just my personal opinion.

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## JungleeKutta

Hey, Pakistani friends.

I appreciate that all of you are really really pi$$ed off about the fact that we (India) were a big part of the Bifurcation of your country in 1971, and that it was pretty humiliating.

I also appreciate the fact that your economy is a shambles due to a number of reasons so you can't really build up a strong enough military to bifurcate India like you'd love to.

I ALSO appreciate that it makes sense to wage a 'war of a thousand cuts' rather than take us on conventionally- bleed us slowly and then defeat us.

The problem is that it really isn't working. Every time something like this happens in Kashmir-unrest, I mean...all of you get terribly excited and jump up and down and hope like hell that THIS is the time, FINALLY, revenge for '71. But no, a few innocent Kashmiris die to keep up your blood feud and things go back to normal. I appreciate that it (the Kashmir issue) gives you something to distract from your woes and that it's about the only thing that brings Pakistan together (because all you have to do is stand across the border and do Naarebazi), but,,,,,

It's hurting you more than us. Seriously. Think about it.
The Kashmir issue is not that big a deal for us, but this supporting terrorists/freedom fighters has brought you the reputation of a basket case.

In any case, IMHO Pakistan took full and final revenge for 1971 during this particular event.....

Oh, I'm new so I can't post a link to the Sharjah Six by Miandad, but you know what i'm talking about, right??

Let's call it quits, shall we?


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## JonAsad

Optimus said:


> By some peoples logic on this forum... Kashmiris should protest violently as they are occupied etc etc etc and then we kill them you say they are innocent blah blah blah ...
> 
> In short you want to Kashmiris to die



Guess who is killing them? and guess what justification they have for it? Think blah blah blah


----------



## TextMiner

mjnaushad said:


> ^^^
> @textminre
> Again started posted offtopics......
> 
> When cant argue start posting offtopics....
> 
> Anyway...That flag is BLA flag .....Not balochistans....
> 
> And again Balochistan is not disputed territory between India and Pakistan......


It was not meant to be off-topic ; it was a valid case in point to counter a naive argument, Just because i hoist a flag in a piece of land, people start claiming it as disputed ; People who have no understanding of History or the UN Resolutions for resolving the dispute see flag-hoisting in Jammu and Kashmir (the flag of the country is irrelevant here), and claim it as illegal occupation. Any rational, unbiased and pragmatic decision to be made will NEVER CONDONE Stone-throwing and Violence. If it is a means to bring the Country to its knees for accepting a unconditional agreement(of Autonomy), then it is out of the question. And that is precisely what the PM is saying.


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## Dash

JonAsad said:


> No, mumbai is a city
> See i can use the smilies aswell


Using smilies doent tell you are intelligent

Because you called Mumbai epesode a drama, You belong to the same nation which still looks for proof for Human killing, and without any proof says Kashmir belongs to pakistan and not India, if you want to converse that way...

Tell me you are jealous!!.....and burning, its fine and understandable.


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## JonAsad

TextMiner said:


> It was not meant to be off-topic ; it was a valid case in point to counter a naive argument, Just because i hoist a flag in a piece of land, people start claiming it as disputed ; People who have no understanding of History or the UN Resolutions for resolving the dispute see flag-hoisting in Jammu and Kashmir (the flag of the country is irrelevant here), and claim it as illegal occupation. Any rational, unbiased and pragmatic decision to be made will NEVER CONDONE Stone-throwing and Violence. If it is a means to bring the Country to its knees for accepting a unconditional agreement(of Autonomy), then it is out of the question. And that is precisely what the PM is saying.



If you havent read it clearly let me be more precise, 


Balouchis holding their own separatist flag---
Maoists holding their own separatist flag---
ULFA holding their own separatist flag---
plus other separatist organizations of india holding their flag---

and 
Kashmiries holding Pakistani flag--- another countries flag thats totaly different.

They cannot be related. Am i clearer.

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## Patrician

Hi guys, as you are all aware, recent months have seen a very unfortunatre cycle of violence and unrest in J&K yet there's something very interesting to note. No major international power/organisation such as US/UK/France/China/Russia/UN/muslim or Arab world etc. has lent its voice to the kashmir issue even after so much trouble and so many deaths. 

There is an unprecedented calm/silence over Kashmir in the international arena. Nobody is willing to take up the issue of kashmir except Pakistan.

My questional to all of you is, are we slowly but surely witnessing the 'internalising' of Kashmir as far as India is concerned? Are we witnessing an ever decreasing role of Pakistan/international community as far as Kashmir is concerned? There is a near total silence on Kashmir.

I,personally, feel that since India is now on its way to become a global power and a huge economic beacon of hope for the west as well as for China (in terms of India's huge market etc.) and also as the centre of global power slowly shifts from west to east and with west more and more grappling with many other much serious issues of its own which are primarily economic in nature, Kashmir has majorly lost and is still losing any international significance or relevance it one had...

What do you guys think?

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## Hulk

It good that Kashmiri's attacked Church. They will soon fall into religious fanatics category like SWAT and no one in world will care how many died.


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## JonAsad

Dash said:


> Using smilies doent tell you are intelligent
> 
> Because you called Mumbai epesode a drama, You belong to the same nation which still looks for proof for Human killing, and without any proof says Kashmir belongs to pakistan and not India, if you want to converse that way...
> 
> Tell me you are jealous!!.....and burning, its fine and understandable.



What proof, you are totally out of senses.
No i am not jealous nor burning, Killing innocent people is not a trait i want to excel at, you are doing it and some day you will pay for it.


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## DGMO

Patrician said:


> P.S. Ek baat honstly bataun dost? I seriously have an inkling that the Kashmir issue just got completely internalised. I mean, the current crisis has completely sidelined Pakistan as far as Kashmir and GoI's view regarding it is concerned. The indications are there for all to see. Even after so many deaths and so much shor-sharaba, so many protests and what not, hardly any govt. on the international stage has shown any willingness to back the kashmir issue be it US/UK/China/UN...That's just my personal opinion.


Well that is all so obvious, and I don't think it's too far from the truth. The fact that my fellow Pakistani members are jumping up and down shouting 'disputed' this and 'plebiscite' that, miss the wider picture.

There is near complete and total silence from the international community on this. 

Even within Pakistan there seems to be Kashmir fatigue. I saw the ARY News main bulletin, and Kashmir was the 5th story to feature.

Yes I realise we've experienced our worst floods in decades, but there aren't protests or anything similar to express solidarity that I can see out on the streets. We have seen that previously.

So the issue is totally internalised, and that's where a solution to the current unrest will come from.

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## mjnaushad

TextMiner said:


> It was not meant to be off-topic ; it was a valid case in point to counter a naive argument, Just because i hoist a flag in a piece of land, people start claiming it as disputed ; People who have no understanding of History or the UN Resolutions for resolving the dispute see flag-hoisting in Jammu and Kashmir (the flag of the country is irrelevant here), and claim it as illegal occupation. Any rational, unbiased and pragmatic decision to be made will NEVER CONDONE Stone-throwing and Violence. If it is a means to bring the Country to its knees for accepting a unconditional agreement(of Autonomy), then it is out of the question. And that is precisely what the PM is saying.


How come posting pics of territory which is not disputed between two countries is on topic while we are talking about territory which is disputed between countries unless you deny that because you were living under a rock and dont know anything about current status......

Bringing two different cases and then saying its ON topic is out of my understanding..We deal with this thing all the time...

When cant argue 

1 Start posting BR post like Junkfighter etc...
2 Start posting offtopics pictures and videos....
3 Start abusing at extreme level, 


Best way to derail the thread.

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## Hulk

Even Azad Kashmir is occupied.


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## file12345

hmmm well its just Indian ego problem.Anyone of these Armchair generals should do themselves a favour and visit J & K themselves to see the mood of their "countrymen" that's if Government of India allows its citizens to travel to Kashmir.


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## Dash

JonAsad said:


> What proof, you are totally out of senses.
> No i am not jealous nor burning, Killing innocent people is not a trait i want to excel at, you are doing it and some day you will pay for it.


You were never in your senses, when we gave substantial proof that Mumbai perpetrators were from Pakistan, you called them non-state actors.

By the way there is much we can do in kashmir and we are not doing it.

And about killing innocent kashmiri?, you dont worry about that, The day day they allowed themselves to be brain washed and protested against India, they lost that "Innocent" tag.

Kashmir is Indian property, Iam not talking abt all kashmir but whatever we hold.

and about paying off, we will be happy to pay off to kahmiris who are Indian citizens. We will not allow to be paid off to someone else.


----------



## Leviza

Patrician said:


> Hi guys, as you are all aware, recent months have seen a very unfortunatre cycle of violence and unrest in J&K yet there's something very interesting to note. No major international power/organisation such as US/UK/France/China/Russia/UN/muslim or Arab world etc. has lent its voice to the kashmir issue even after so much trouble and so many deaths.
> 
> There is an unprecedented calm/silence over Kashmir in the international arena. Nobody is willing to take up the issue of kashmir except Pakistan.
> 
> My questional to all of you is, are we slowly but surely witnessing the 'internalising' of Kashmir as far as India is concerned? Are we witnessing an ever decreasing role of Pakistan/international community as far as Kashmir is concerned?
> 
> I,personally, feel that since India is now on its way to become a global power and a huge economic beacon of hope for the west as well as for China (in terms of India's huge market etc.) and also as the centre of global power slowly shifts from west to east and with west more and more grappling with many other much serious issues of its own which are primarily economic in nature, Kashmir has majorly lost and is still losing any international significance or relevance it one had...
> 
> What do you guys think?



Kashmiries dont need help from any other country..... they will do all by themself..... Even if what you said i true still kashmir is a disputed land.....

i think its in india interest to let go kashmir and develop its people..... specially people living on footpaths.....

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## SSGPA1

*Manmohan Singh shocked by Kashmir protests, urges dialogue *

DAWN.COM | World | Manmohan Singh ?shocked? by Kashmir protests, urges dialogue

I always thought that the Indian PM is smarter than hhis counterpart in Pakistan but the statement above is not from a smart PM. 

He is shocked!! wow, innocent people are slaughtered and people are protesting in Kashmir for their independence and the Indian PM is shocked!!

Absolute hog wash from Mr.Singh! This is the only opportunity for the Indian politicians to convince the masses in India that:

1. People in Indian Ocuppied Kashmir don't want to be part of India.
2. Peace and stability in India will ONLY improve once Kashmir issue is resolved.

Shocked my rear!


----------



## TextMiner

JonAsad said:


> If you havent read it clearly let me be more precise,
> 
> 
> Balouchis holding their own separatist flag---
> Maoists holding their own separatist flag---
> ULFA holding their own separatist flag---
> plus other separatist organizations of india holding their flag---
> 
> and
> Kashmiries holding Pakistani flag--- another countries flag thats totaly different.
> 
> *They cannot be related. Am i clearer.*


Absolutely. I still remember once upon a time when another part of a Nation was flying the white crescent and star against a Dark green background along with White; But alas unfortunately, now they have a Red Sun (figuratively representing the blood they spilled) against a Dark Green background. I just hope for your sake, the White crescent and star can still be hoisted illegally, in land of Sage Kashyapa, as long as the GoI is asleep.


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## SSGPA1

lionheart1 said:


> innocent kashmiries dont throw stones at security forces,



If the Indian govt. and people are not listening to their just demand for independence then probably they will pick up guns and next time it may be a grenade!

BTW, Bhaghat Singh and Raj Guru blew a few grenades in the Legislative Assembly and they are heros so these Kashmiris are also heros for standing up to a brutal occupying force!


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## mjnaushad

TextMiner said:


> Absolutely. I still remember once upon a time when another part of a Nation was flying the white crescent and star against a Dark green background along with White; But alas unfortunately, now they have a Red Sun (figuratively representing the blood they spilled) against a Dark Green background. I just hope for your sake, the White crescent and star can still be hoisted illegally, in land of Sage Kashyapa, as long as the GoI is asleep.


You are talking about that cross border terrorism by a terrorist state......Yeah I remember that....

BTW again OFFTOPIC


----------



## WHF

JonAsad said:


> That day i will love to wake up in Hell and make it a heaven, if you know what i mean. *Radio Pakistan New Delhi*



 ..........  ............


----------



## SSGPA1

DGMO said:


> Well that is all so obvious, and I don't think it's too far from the truth. The fact that my fellow Pakistani members are jumping up and down shouting 'disputed' this and 'plebiscite' that, miss the wider picture.
> 
> There is near complete and total silence from the international community on this.
> 
> Even within Pakistan there seems to be Kashmir fatigue. I saw the ARY News main bulletin, and Kashmir was the 5th story to feature.
> 
> Yes I realise we've experienced our worst floods in decades, but there aren't protests or anything similar to express solidarity that I can see out on the streets. We have seen that previously.
> 
> So the issue is totally internalised, and that's where a solution to the current unrest will come from.



The reason from Pakistan is obviously due to lack of leadership in Pakistan and Internationa;l Comunity always come into play when the GoP highlights the issue. So no response from teh GoP means no response from the Intl Community. Another reason is the sale of MRCA which will keep a lot of FMs to openly speak about Kashmir.

Last but not least, silence from Pakistan is a blessing in disguise because now everyone can see that this is not a Pakistan inspired issue and more improtantly Indian masses need to realize that even without the help from Pakistan, Kashmiris are very capable of asking for an independence.


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## Hulk

We know that people in 4 districts at best are against us. Most of these pictures come from Srinagar, just one city. Big deal. 
Also rioters should be killed end of story.


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## file12345

indianrabbit said:


> We know that people in 4 districts at best are against us. Most of these pictures come from Srinagar, just one city. Big deal.
> *Also rioters should be killed end of story*.



huh?.You want your countrymen killed.


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## Valiant_Soul

*All-party meeting decides to send delegation to J&K*

The all-party meeting on Jammu and Kashmir on Wednesday decided to send a delegation of political leaders to the State to assess the ground situation but failed to arrive at a consensus on the issue of withdrawal or dilution of the contentious Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA).

The five-and-a-half hour meeting, during which Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, United Progressive Alliance Chairperson Sonia Gandhi, Bharatiya Janata Party leader L.K. Advani and leaders of other parties presented their views, however, was unanimous over the need for internal dialogue within the framework of Indian Constitution.

There was sharp division on AFSPA, revocation of which was demanded by the Peoples Democratic Party and the National Conference but opposed by the BJP and some other parties.

At the meeting, Dr. Singh and other leaders voiced distress and concern over the continuing violence in the State and the loss of life.

Setting the tone, Dr. Singh said the government was willing to talk to anybody or any group which adopts peaceful means but asserted that it could not happen till the end of violence, some of which is orchestrated by certain groups.

A statement issued at the end of the marathon meeting said the leaders agreed that the Indian Constitution provides ample scope to accommodate any legitimate political demand through dialogue, civil discourse and peaceful negotiations.

Accordingly, it was decided that all-party delegation would be sent to Jammu and Kashmir, dates for which were not announced immediately.

The leaders agreed that the delegation should meet all sections of the people and gather all shades of opinion. The visit of the all-party delegation would be facilitated by the Ministry of Home Affairs and the government of Jammu and Kashmir, the statement said.

The government will take into account the deliberations at todays meeting while considering measures and initiatives to reach out to the people of Jammu and Kashmir, it said, adding the feedback received from the all-party delegation would form an important input into the Governments evolving response on various issues relating to the State.

During the meeting, PDP leader Mehbooba Mufti, whose party is the main opposition in Jammu and Kashmir, favoured immediate revocation of AFSPA and withdrawal of armed forces from civil areas and release of political prisoners and innocent detenues.

National Conference, which was represented by its chief Farooq Abdullah, also sought revocation of AFSPA, at least partially, failing which amend it to make it humane.

The demand of the parties from the state was supported by the Left parties and the Lok Janasakthi Party.

However, parties like the BJP, the Shiv Sena, the Samajwadi Party and the Rashtriya Janata Dal opposed any such move, saying nothing should be done to demoralise the forces.

The BJP, whose chief Nitin Gadkari spoke at the meeting, was unexpectedly mellowed in its tone while the Shiv Sena was aggressive, according to a leader who attended the meeting.

The BJP stuck to its stand that the AFSPA should not be withdrawn, even partially, and there should be no talk of granting autonomy, a demand being pressed by the ruling NC.

Mr. Gadkari said the country cannot ignore the fact that terrorism was being aided and abetted by elements in Pakistan and government should factor this while devising its policies.

The party would support any dialogue within the framework of Indian Constitution but violence should end.

There was a spat between Ms. Mehbooba Mufti and the NCs Mohd. Shafi after the PDP leader attacked Chief Minister Omar Abdullah.

Ms. Mehbooba Mufti alleged that the situation in the State has worsened since Mr. Omar Abdullah took charge and accused the Chief Minister of not consulting other parties and leaders on crucial issues, according to one of the participants.

She said when her father Mufti Sayeed was Chief Minister he had made it a point to speak to all major leaders, which Mr. Omar Abdullah has not done.

While the Chief Ministers father Farooq Abdullah did not speak, his colleague Mr. Shafi shot back, saying when the PDP government succeeded the NC dispensation, violence had claimed 25 lives in the Valley. He, however, said the NC did not want to politicise the issue.

In his opening remarks at the meeting, the Prime Minister underlined that dialogue and discussion is the only path for lasting peace and prosperity in the State and those having grievance against the government have to talk to the administration.

Appealing for peace, he expressed sadness over the loss of lives and injuries suffered by the people, the police and security personnel besides huge disruption in the daily lives of the common man and the financial losses suffered by various sections of the society in the state.

I am sure all of us share a deep sense of distress over the unfortunate sequence of events, during and after the Eid, particularly in the context of a reported act by a misguided person thousands of miles away, Dr. Singh said.

We have to talk to each other... But it is also true that meaningful dialogue can happen only in an atmosphere free from violence and confrontation. Discussions can take place only if we have calm and public order, he emphasised.

Expressing shock and distress over the fact that men, women and even children have been joining the protests on the streets of Kashmir, Dr. Singh said, while some of these protests may have been impulsive or spontaneous, it cannot be denied that some incidents were orchestrated by certain groups.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

DGMO said:


> We don't know what they will ask for as the term 'azaadi' hasn't been explicitly explained from what I've read. It seems the separatists don't know what this means.


I think they know what it means and they know what they want (multiple possible solutions), but the slogan of 'Azadi' resonates and is easier for people to latch on to and unify over. For example, at the rally led by separatists, there were people waving all sorts of flags - Kashmir flags and Pakistan flags.

Azadi in its simplest meaning for all of these people means the 'Azadi to decide their future'.

It is unrealistic to think that you can have debates, such as the ones on this forum to weigh the pro's and con's of complete independence vs divided Kashmir, with a majority, or even significant minority of Kashmiris, and convince them to your POV. As such, it is much easier to coallesce support around much simpler arguments that leave room for everyone's vision of Kashmir.

Even if a divided Kashmir, in terms of Kashmir, Jammu and Laddakh, is not something many Kashmiris agree with, the fact is that when the people protesting for 'Azadi' have had their say about their future, most of them will be satisfied enough with their lives to not really care about what happened with the other parts of J&K that no longer form a single state. 


> Then what you ask? Well, it's what we have now - a stalemate. Valiant_Soul has touched on it, and so have I in previous posts - it's all a matter of who will blink first.
> 
> The preconditions are in place for both sides. Both seem to be non-negotiable. In that case, we get the status quo: killings and protests.
> 
> I think this has gone beyond even taking steps like rescinding AFSPA. I doubt gestures such as those (which once looked meaningful) can pave the way for peace or normalcy.


On the AFSPA, even the moderate separatists have rejected the AFSPA rescinding as enough, twice now, in the last few days.

There is also the continuing question of resolving the dispute with Pakistan. The government under Zardari may be dovish, but there is no guarantee that either Zardari or his party will be in power in the future, the floods are not going to last forever, and continued violence in IOK after the floods could mean militants steeping in again.

Perhaps time to explore the Musharraf formula again, it appeared to satisfy many on both sides, though at this point the Kashmiris will have to be involved as well IMO.

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## Bang Galore

Leviza said:


> K
> *i think its in india interest to let go kashmir and develop its people..... specially people living on footpaths.....
> *



Please do not tax your brain. We will do our thinking for ourselves.Having flags of two countries & waving a third does not constitute internationalisation of the Kashmir issue. We are not in the habit of allowing others to decide what exactly is in our interest.

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## Patrician

Bang Galore said:


> Please do not tax your brain. We will do our thinking for ourselves.*Having flags of two countries & waving a third does not constitute internationalisation of the Kashmir issue*. We are not in the habit of allowing others to decide what exactly is in our interest.





Man that was some stellar 'Jhandu balm' performance.

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## deckingraj

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Why is it so hard for you to accept that the people are disenchanted with Indian occupation and are demanding (at least the kashmiris) that they be allowed to exercise their right to self-determination in some form?



That is the crux of the problem....You are trying to put down my throat your version...what do you mean by Kashmiris???? Are you referring to people in valley???? Then yes you ar right...However here we are talking about State of Jammu and Kashmir, no??? Yes people are unhappy with GOI especially in valley however they are divided among themselves about what they want...Now please tell me what is wrong in my statement??

My advice please read post no 217....There are some surveys that cna give you an inclination about how much diverse opinions are out there in Jammu and Kashmir...



> You are going from excuse after excuse to somehow link the unrest with 'lack of development' even going so far as to argue that professions in 'agriculture and husbandry' is the cause, never mind the fact that the majority of both India and Pakistan's economies, and that of many other developing nations, continue to be based on agriculture.


The problem is you want to somehow criticize....I don't know about Pakistan but lets talk about India here....

"Indias economy is diverse, depending on agriculture, handicrafts, textile, manufacturing, and a multitude of services."

Indian Economy & Industry | Economy of India | world?s third largest economy

Yes 2/3 population depends on Agricuture directly on indirectly but do you know percentage of GDP they produce???

More than 52% of country's population depends on agriculture, a sector contributing only 17.5% of the GDP.

Indian Economic Structure: Indian Industry Sectors & Industries | Economy Watch

Do i need to explain how much is industrialization is important??? 



> Where is the disenchantment over 'agriculture and animal husbandry jobs' in Pakistan? These are not youths who were unemployed for years that are taking up the baton of protesting Indian rule. Many of them are college and school going individuals, who have not even experienced any potential 'disenchantment with the job market'. This kind of absurd exercise in denying the fact that disenchantment over a violated commitment to deciding through plebiscite whether or not to be part of the Indian State is dishonesty with self.



Your problem is too much talk about plebiscite without getting to the bottom of debate especially when it comes to kashmir...I know it is emotional subject but lets not leave intellectual mind while talking....I have already explained that Kashmiris(in other words people of jammu and kashmir) are divided on what they want....Is there disenchantment at all...of course Yes...is everyone part of it, Not at all....

I am not being dishonest here but you are....I can understand the reason behind it but i don't know what can be achieved by being dishonest....May i know what data you have that tell you all the protestors are school/college going students who have not experienced "disenchantment with the job market"...Anyways let me take you words as correct...So now can you please tell me what Job market is Jammu and Kashmir going to provide these youths when they pass out from colleges/schools??? Are saying that you need to be out there unemployed for years before you get frustrated??? Is that the reason that young Pakistani are blowing them by wearing suicide wests in every corner of Pakistan? Perhaps all of them would be college pass outs waiting for jobs for years, no??? Clearly there is more to think about it before passing judgements, no???....




> Just now I was reading an Indian piece where the author recommended holding 'open houses', inviting the youth and leadership and listening to what they want. But what if they want a plebiscite to formalize their compact with the Indian State, a compact they never agreed to?


Again your problem is being selective on the demands of Kashmiri's....Plebiscite is a very complex issue...One cannot solve it because Agno believes that is the right way to go....Inviting people to find out what they want shows a mature step and is being done on various platforms...Here is one such debate...An interesting one...

We The People: Govt vs Army on Armed Forces Act?

This will tell you that even youth of Kashmir is divided as far as resolution of kashmir issue is resolved....



> In all the potential issues the author though the youth might raise, he never considered the possibility of plebiscite. This isn't really 'listening to kashmiri grievances', its only listening to Kashmiri grievances that you have already pre-determined are acceptable to you, in which case it is a pointless exercise.


Seems like you know a lot about "kashmiri grievances".....May be you want to update your knowledge on that....People in valley do not represent state of Jammu and Kashmir...There are people in Jammu and People in Ladakh as well....Plebiscite is very compley topic that involves 

- People of Jammu and Kashmir(P-o-k, Jammu, Valley, Ladakh, Displaced Kashmiri Pandits), China, Pakistan, demilitarization of Kashmir including complete pull back by Pakistan and scores of Pakistani's(non kashmiri's) who have settled in Kashmir....So i can understand why Author is not talking about it...can you???....

The need of the hour is to be realistic....Mush era was good from that perspective....He tried Kargil, failed and then did a reality check....The result was reached a stage where we were close to resolve the issue....Hopefully next time we will resolve the issue and we will not need any Kargil for introspection....


P.S : In india we use the word "jammu and kashmir" and kashmir interchangeably..Just making it clear so that i do not add to confusion....

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Valiant_Soul said:


> You should be aware that a legal framework in complete agreements of the concerned parties were never reached (Read more here).
> 
> And ideology was the grand basis of partition, the only one actually. The ML chose both the ideology for division and also the regions.
> 
> "Muhammad Ali Jinnah espoused the Two Nation Theory and led the Muslim League to adopt the Lahore Resolution[7] of 1940, demanding the formation of independent states for Muslims in the East and the West of British India. "
> 
> "The province of West Pakistan was created on 14 October 1955 by the merger of the provinces, states and tribal areas of the western wing. The province was composed of twelve divisions and the provincial capital was established at Lahore. The province of East Bengal was renamed East Pakistan with the provincial capital at Dhaka. The federal government moved in 1959 from Karachi to Rawalpindi (provisional capital until Islamabad was finished), whilst the federal legislature moved to Dhaka."
> 
> This was the agreed geography of Pakistan. The princely state, though free to choose the new dominions, were subject to boundary conditions, which the Nawabs of Junagadh and Hyderabad did not took into consideration.


You are contradicting yourself - in the last line you argue that the Princely States were subject to boundary conditions, but in the beginning you argue that there was no legal framework agreed upon for accessions. If there was no framework agreed upon, then where did the boundary conditions come from? The boundary conditions were in fact not conditions, but suggestions, and they were not binding.

As I pointed out before, there was nothing suggesting that the Princely States could only accede based on the nations ideology - that is an obvious canard, and you have provided nothing to support any understanding between the British, ML and Congress on that issue. What you have provided is merely commentary on the ideology of Pakistan - that does not equate to evidence indicating that the rules governing accession of States prohibited non-Muslim States from joining Pakistan.


> Based on the ideology of Pakistan creation and the regions demanded by Pakistan, India was just in keeping Junagadh and Hyderabad. And there were other "at-that-time" circumstances as well that well justifies these actions, for example the rise of communal violence, future governance, etc.


You did not 'keep Junagadh and Hyderabad', India invaded and occupied them. In the first case the State had acceded to Pakistan, in the latter the ruler was not allowed to make any decision. There was nothing indicating an agreement to limit the accession of States to Pakistan to only Muslim States.


> The same logic was applied to Kashmir and India accepted the case of plebiscite.


 I agree on the part about 'same logic', and I do not dispute resolving all three contested States through plebiscite, but where is the plebiscite in Kashmir? India now refuses to even consider it.


> As is relevant from that thread, India's acceptance to plebiscite was subject to pre-conditions. And an agreement to those pre-conditions were never reached by both sides. The issue hangs in limbo and so the best thing to do now is to live with what we have.
> 
> Further stretching the idea of India-Pakistan partition, that Muslims and Hindus who want to exchange sides can do so, the solution to current Kashmir valley crisis become quite clear. Those who want to go to Pakistan can do so, but demand of a separate state is neither feasible nor acceptable, even to the whole of Kashmir (as only the valley wants separation and even they are divided).


Explicit pre-conditions, such as the ones India wants, were never formalized as part of the UNSC resolutions. The fact is that after India's hostile actions in Junagadh and Hyderabad, Pakistan was never going to vacate J&K and allow India to deploy troops to occupy the State, especially when there was no enforcement mechanism to force India to comply with the UNSC resolutions. 

For that reason the actual UNSC resolutions called for discussions between UNCIP, India and Pakistan on coming up with demilitarization proposals, and UNCIP did propose many solutions, all of which were rejected by India. The proposal that India wanted, for Pakistan to completely vacate J&K, and allow complete Indian military dominance in the territory, and then also allow India to conduct the plebiscite, was obviously not acceptable or rational, for either Pakistan or the UN.


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## Urbanized Greyhound

Kashmir is India's internal matter now and always....all political solutions and economic packages is between the people affected in kashmir and the GOI...and there is no room at all for any outside notice from any nation or organization....

actually even before our super power status this has always been our position and it shall always continue to be so......even now when we hear on an all party meet ....it inevitably means parties in India...GOI , the other political parties, even the hurriyat factions....*but no other country is referred*.....

Pakistan and China can keep on insisting on the resolution of the dispute forever more but we shall neither tolerate nor engage in any discussions on our sovereignty.....the territorial integration of India is non negotiable.....

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## DGMO

SSGPA1 said:


> The reason from Pakistan is obviously due to lack of leadership in Pakistan and Internationa;l Comunity always come into play when the GoP highlights the issue. So no response from teh GoP means no response from the Intl Community. Another reason is the sale of MRCA which will keep a lot of FMs to openly speak about Kashmir.
> 
> Last but not least, silence from Pakistan is a blessing in disguise because now everyone can see that this is not a Pakistan inspired issue and more improtantly Indian masses need to realize that even without the help from Pakistan, Kashmiris are very capable of asking for an independence.


I disagree there. We've not been able to muster a sustained backing on our position for as far back as I can remember.

Do remember that the int. community can only dive in when it sees there is room for it to do so. India doesn't allow anyone to dive in with criticism and will always throw back the 'this is an internal matter' to whoever talks of Kashmir.

We just don't have the cover to go out on a diplomatic offensive, so it's futile to think we should.

You talk of the MRCA, then you should find an answer within that yourself - India's economic influence. So powerful is India's standing when it comes to deals such as that, they can flag up the MRCA card to ward off any criticism if they wish to.

I agree with your final point. I think India got it wrong when it went with the 'ISI sponsored stone throwers' gambit from the outset of the protests. It was clearly internally inspired and was foolish to think Pakistan was behind it. 

I think it's fair to say that we could be milking this situation a great deal more, but the reaction from the top has been clearly muted. I think that's a desire to keep on good terms if and when talks resume between the two nations.

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## Rudraksh

I don't think the youths that are on the streets shouting "azadi" know what they really want. To me, the anger and frustration is more a result of the constant feeling of suffocation that has existed for the last 20 years or so. A generation has grown up in that time, and it is this generation that is perhaps tired of the frequent security checks at checkposts and the obvious difficulties of having security personnel in civilian areas. From any point of view, these children (who are young adults now) haven't have had a normal childhood!!

I doubt that these youths can define what they want - for that matter, if the separatists can define it!! Yes, it is a slogan that people can gravitate to and a very effective one at that in present times.

About the question of deciding their future, well, from an Indian perspective - I don't think anyone in India is convinced that what these youths really want is "azaadi." Solutions that the GOI may propose can range from decreasing the military/paramilitary presence from civilian areas, consider autonomy, other such measures!!

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## deckingraj

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I think they know what it means and they know what they want (multiple possible solutions), but the slogan of 'Azadi' resonates and is easier for people to latch on to and unify over. For example, at the rally led by separatists, there were people waving all sorts of flags - Kashmir flags and Pakistan flags.



Unify over what??? When there understanding of Azadi is completely different, when the end result they are looking for is completely different then may i know what is the unification for????

- There are some who complete reject this phenomenon
- There are some who want more Autonomy for Kashmir and consider it as Azaadi
- There are some who want complete freedom from India and merge with Pakistan
- There are some who want complete freedom from both India and Pakistan
- There are some who want to divide the state into three different states i.e. Kashmir, Jammu and Ladakh

So may i know what unity are you talking about??? Please understand that there is almost 2-3 months of protest and yet it has not been trickeled down to Jammu and Ladakh....Does this say something???



> Azadi in its simplest meaning for all of these people means the 'Azadi to decide their future'.



Does that mean i am not Azaad??? Do people of Kashmir(J&K) do not have the freedom to decide about their future???? See how simplest definition can be screwed...Waht you are referring to as Azaadi in simplest term is People of Kashmir shoud decide which country they want to merge with, or to be an independent country and this is where they are not united...So yes they do not know what Azaadi means.....




> Perhaps time to explore the Musharraf formula again, it appeared to satisfy many on both sides, though at this point the Kashmiris will have to be involved as well IMO.


This is the only formulae that will work and we will end up having majority happy....people of valley will find themselves not directly under GOI control as border will be invisible, People of Jammu and Ladakh will find themselves alligned with GOI since borders are there though invisible and P-O-K people will find them free to move in and out in various parts of J&K

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## Patrician

Urbanized Greyhound said:


> Kashmir is India's internal matter now and always....all political solutions and economic packages is between the people affected in kashmir and the GOI...and there is no room at all for any outside notice from any nation or organization....
> 
> actually even before our super power status this has always been our position and it shall always continue to be so......even now when we hear on an all party meet ....it inevitably means parties in India...GOI , the other political parties, even the hurriyat factions....*but no other country is referred*.....
> 
> Pakistan and China can keep on insisting on the resolution of the dispute forever more but we shall neither tolerate nor engage in any discussions on our sovereignty.....the territorial integration of India is non negotiable.....



Yes my dear but that is our stand. What this thread is about is the international powers' stand and the reason for it.

As far as China is concerned, they are wise enough to know what is in their best interest and their current silence vis a vis Kashmir is a reflection of that realisation.

I'd like to know your view on topic.


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## JanjaWeed

*Has India successfully managed to 'internalise' kashmir?*

i don't think it has ever been an external problem, no matter how hard people tried to make it & are still trying to! india always had the control over this & never allowed anyone to take advantage of the situation.

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## Bull

muse said:


> I'm not suggesting that protesters or rioters be given as you put it "a free hand" -- though Killing protesters does suggest that occupation forces find themselves under tremendous strain -- these killings will be responded to - we all know this - and of course this will be upping the ante - whose interest other than those who seek military confrontation will that serve?



well protesters are hot at when the lathis or batons fail, be it Paris or Manilla, their isn't anything 'occupying' in it. Its a law an order issue.

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## Patrician

StreetHawk said:


> *Has India successfully managed to 'internalise' kashmir?*
> 
> i don't think it has ever been an external problem, no matter how hard people tried to make it & are still trying to! india always had the control over this & never allowed anyone to take advantage of the situation.



No no...you didn't get what i was trying to say

Kashmir was pretty much very well discussed internationally even, say, 5-6 years ago. But things are perhaps changing now as far as that 'international spotlight' is concerned.


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## su-47

Leviza said:


> Kashmiries dont need help from any other country..... they will do all by themself..... Even if what you said i true still kashmir is a disputed land.....



we'll see. 



Leviza said:


> i think its in india interest to let go kashmir and develop its people..... specially people living on footpaths.....



Thank you for the concern shown. There are many here who constantly dedicate their time and effort to fight for the poor in India. And your fight is bearing fruit. More Indians are being lifted out of poverty. This matter has been discussed before. The poor in India can sleep in peace, knowing that there are deicated groups of Pakistanis who care for their well being.

But hey, something just struck my mind. What about the poor in Pakistan? Who worries for them, considering you spent all your efforts worrying about Kashmir and Indian poor?

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## Hulk

I had sympathy for Kashmiri's but when I see their violent behavior, I lose all of the sympathy. Rioters should be dealt with Iron hand. 
This is how I see the situations. 
1) First death was accident not a HR violation. Since teargas is not meant to kill. 
2) The protest that started after first death was uncalled for, since no one was at fault. 
3) Opportunistic took advantage of situation, so they are to be blamed. 
4) More deaths were caused by controlling riots ofcourse some collateral was their. 
5) Opportunist kept selectively highlighting riot control to incite violence and Kashmiri's kept falling for it. 
6) So for present situation Kashmiri's and opportunist are responsible. 
7) One cannot have peace by indulging in rioting. 

I think it will not be bad idea if this continues for another 6 months. At least Kashmiri's will realize that it will achieve nothing for them but they will be only loser. Sometime to fix a problem you need to first let it continue till people get tired.


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## Dash

Let them come out of the flood first...Iam sure they will, but when thay are is issues, they talk about us.

coming back to topic, Kashmir was always an internal matter and it will be. Crying doesnt help.

Let there be another Tiananmen square, doesnt matter.China is in peace now.


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## Patrician

DGMO said:


> I disagree there. We've not been able to muster a sustained backing on our position for as far back as I can remember.
> 
> Do remember that the int. community can only dive in when it sees there is room for it to do so. India doesn't allow anyone to dive in with criticism and will always throw back the 'this is an internal matter' to whoever talks of Kashmir.
> 
> We just don't have the cover to go out on a diplomatic offensive, so it's futile to think we should.
> 
> You talk of the MRCA, then you should find an answer within that yourself - India's economic influence. So powerful is India's standing when it comes to deals such as that, they can flag up the MRCA card to ward off any criticism if they wish to.
> 
> I agree with your final point. *I think India got it wrong when it went with the 'ISI sponsored stone throwers' gambit from the outset of the protests. It was clearly internally inspired and was foolish to think Pakistan was behind it. *
> 
> I think it's fair to say that we could be milking this situation a great deal more, but the reaction from the top has been clearly muted. I think that's a desire to keep on good terms if and when talks resume between the two nations.



One very interesting point comes to my mind when I think about the bolded part.

Could it be that after it had raised the 'ISI sponsored stone-pelters' card, India realised that doing this will only lead to more internationalisation of the issue i.e. kashmiris' protests.

I mean just think about it hypothetically for a second, imagine are GoI and you know your enemy (ISI/Pak) is sponsoring the stone pelters and inciting violence. Now, will you raise the issue internationally knowing that doing so would only lead to internationalization of the issue which will of course be only detrimental to your interests?

*My point*: It is very much possible that the current unrest is sponsored by ISI (and they have reason to do so keeping in mind the upcoming visit of Obama to India) and that the GoI firmly knows it but still it chooses to remain mum on that aspect in order to avoid attracting the attention of the international community.

Think about it! It could be a very well thought out startegy by the GoI...a very strategic move. It will be a trade-off, GoI will gain some ire of some internal stakeholders but will be successfully able to avoid the attention of the major world powers.

*SHORT TERM LOSS, LONG TERM GAIN*

It could be possible!


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## Dash

file12345 said:


> huh?.You want your countrymen killed.


They are protesting against India, true country men will not do it. They better be killed.


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## Patrician

Hey guys, one very interesting thing comes to my mind when I think of the current unrest in Kashmir:

*I REQUEST YOU THAT BEFORE READING ANY FURTHER PUT ON YOUR THINKING CAPS:*

One very interesting point comes to my mind when I think about the bolded part.

Could it be that after it had raised the 'ISI sponsored stone-pelters' card, India realised that doing this will only lead to more internationalisation of the issue i.e. kashmiris' protests.

I mean just think about it hypothetically for a second, imagine are GoI and you know your enemy (ISI/Pak) is sponsoring the stone pelters and inciting violence. Now, will you raise the issue internationally knowing that doing so would only lead to internationalization of the issue which will of course be only detrimental to your interests?

*My point*: It is very much possible that the current unrest is sponsored by ISI (and they have reason to do so keeping in mind the upcoming visit of Obama to India) and that the GoI firmly knows it but still it chooses to remain mum on that aspect in order to avoid attracting the attention of the international community.

Think about it! It could be a very well thought out startegy by the GoI...a very strategic move. It will be a trade-off, GoI will gain some ire of some internal stakeholders but will be successfully able to avoid the attention of the major world powers.

*SHORT TERM LOSS, LONG TERM GAIN*

It could be possible!

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## Dash

> Could it be that after it had raised the 'ISI sponsored stone-pelters' card, India realised that doing this will only lead to more internationalisation of the issue i.e. kashmiris' protests



This doesnt matter, its been for years, the issue still then is not internaional. No one seems to bother for reasons that Kashmirs should be left to India and Pak, something the non alligned and non NPT, non CTBT signatories enjoy, and a blessing in disguise.

Saying ISI is behind this will not cause much concren apart from Pak.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

deckingraj said:


> That is the crux of the problem....You are trying to put down my throat your version...what do you mean by Kashmiris???? Are you referring to people in valley???? Then yes you ar right...However here we are talking about State of Jammu and Kashmir, no??? Yes people are unhappy with GOI especially in valley however they are divided among themselves about what they want...Now please tell me what is wrong in my statement??


I am not shoving anything down your throat, and for clarification I am referring to Kashmiris as in those from Kashmir, not Jammu and Laddakh. What I am pointing out is that Indians are refusing to consider the possibility that the Kashmiris want the 'Azadi' to be able to determine their future status as part of Pakistan, India or independence. By refusing to deal with that possiblity, one that was in fact promised to the Kashmiris by the Indian State, it is India that is shoving pre-conditions down the throats of the Kashmiris.



> The problem is you want to somehow criticize....I don't know about Pakistan but lets talk about India here....


 The problem is that you want to discuss everything but the proverbial 'elephant in the room'.


> "Indias economy is diverse, depending on agriculture, handicrafts, textile, manufacturing, and a multitude of services."
> 
> Indian Economy & Industry | Economy of India | world?s third largest economy
> 
> Yes 2/3 population depends on Agricuture directly on indirectly but do you know percentage of GDP they produce???
> 
> More than 52% of country's population depends on agriculture, a sector contributing only 17.5% of the GDP.
> 
> Indian Economic Structure: Indian Industry Sectors & Industries | Economy Watch
> 
> Do i need to explain how much is industrialization is important???



I am sorry, but to argue that the tens of thousands of Kashmirs are on the streets asking for 'Azadi' and abusing India is because of 'animal husbandry and agriculture' is just plain ludicrous. Industrialization is important, but why did this not happen in every single State in the Indian Union and in Pakistan before industrialization took place?

This argument is reflective of a deep desire to not deal with reality.



> Your problem is too much talk about plebiscite without getting to the bottom of debate especially when it comes to kashmir...I know it is emotional subject but lets not leave intellectual mind while talking....I have already explained that Kashmiris(in other words people of jammu and kashmir) are divided on what they want....Is there disenchantment at all...of course Yes...is everyone part of it, Not at all....


The people of Kashmir are not really divided about what they want. A pretty significant majority wants 'Azadi'.


> I am not being dishonest here but you are....I can understand the reason behind it but i don't know what can be achieved by being dishonest....May i know what data you have that tell you all the protestors are school/college going students who have not experienced "disenchantment with the job market"...Anyways let me take you words as correct...So now can you please tell me what Job market is Jammu and Kashmir going to provide these youths when they pass out from colleges/schools??? Are saying that you need to be out there unemployed for years before you get frustrated??? Is that the reason that young Pakistani are blowing them by wearing suicide wests in every corner of Pakistan? Perhaps all of them would be college pass outs waiting for jobs for years, no??? Clearly there is more to think about it before passing judgements, no???....



How can accuse me of being 'dishonest' when your justification of 'dissatisfaction with agriculture and animal husbandry' is just plain ludicrous and unsubstantiated? Where is your data to indicate this is the reason for disenchantment with India?

I cannot recall any posters in these protests stating '_down with animal husbandry'_ or _'an end to agricultural jobs'_, or even more simply, _'where is our Industry and and where are our factories'_!!

One would expect that if what you state was the primary motivation behind these protests, there would be some sign or mention of it, and such a scenario might be replicated in other regions where 'agriculture and animal husbandry' were the main professions.



> Again your problem is being selective on the demands of Kashmiri's....Plebiscite is a very complex issue...One cannot solve it because Agno believes that is the right way to go....Inviting people to find out what they want shows a mature step and is being done on various platforms...Here is one such debate...An interesting one...


There are various sin-off's on the plebiscite proposal that allow for district or region wise selection, or the Chenab formula for example. And if people are being invited to share their thoughts, then why refuse to consider one very real possibility of a demand for 'Azadi to choose Pakistan, India or independence'? How is that mature, when you rule out listening to possibly the underlying cause for disenchantment?



> - People of Jammu and Kashmir(P-o-k, Jammu, Valley, Ladakh, Displaced Kashmiri Pandits), China, Pakistan, demilitarization of Kashmir including complete pull back by Pakistan and scores of Pakistani's(non kashmiri's) who have settled in Kashmir....So i can understand why Author is not talking about it...can you???....


I can understand the Indian refusal to talk about the real issues and blame 'animal husbandry' - it is a disconnect with reality. Complete pullback by Pakistan is as likely as a complete pullback by India. The UNSC resolutions did not endorse it unconditionally and the UNCIP proposals on demilitarization did not endorse it either. But the rest of it can be resolved through negotiations - that is precisely why you need to 'listen' to all grievances, and be prepared to talk the issue with Pakistan. Resolution of complex issues does not come from sitting around twiddling your thumbs and refusing to acknowledge the elephant in the room.



> The result was reached a stage where we were close to resolve the issue....


The ball is in India's court on that issue. Pakistan is not the one refusing to start off where we left off.


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## Urbanized Greyhound

Patrician said:


> Yes my dear but that is our stand. What this thread is about is the international powers' stand and the reason for it.
> 
> As far as China is concerned, they are wise enough to know what is in their best interest and their current silence vis a vis Kashmir is a reflection of that realisation.
> 
> I'd like to know your view on topic.



well rather than any chest inflation about " Indians having arrived as a super power on the world scene...etc" ....my thoughts are a bit more pragmatic.....
I think this apparent silence is due to two reasons .....countries Like GB , France ,Russia which have been our traditional supporters and are still so have always remained silent....no point antagonising an ally and an arms buyer of enormous proportions....britain has always washed its hands of the Kashmir issue anyways....... 

as far as the U.S is cocerned it is eyeing India as a potential "Swing state" to counter all U.S un friendlies ......Kashmir being our most sensitive issue it would be in their interest to give it a wide berth....

however China has not at all ignored Kashmir....as I see it they are slowly moving from discreet manuevours( stapled visas, invites to geelani) to overt ones( outright denial of visa to the admiral,to stationing troops in AK) .......this may be a attempt to corner India diplomatically ,part of a grand design or simply to assuage the concerns of their all weather ally pakistan....I am inclined to the former....

as for the Arab world they generally toe the U.S line like ....Australia , SKorea or Canada.......


however there is an important reason .....the Kashmir problem has long been hijacked by vested interests and nefarious agendas ......
and forces trying to stoke up trouble has long been using terrorism as an effective way of internationalising the issue ....it is possible that international silence on kashmir reflects the view that any changes in the *status quo* will result in an increase in *fundamentalism* ....detrimental to all parties concerned and a realization that .....*some things are best left alone*........

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## DGMO

Patrician said:


> One very interesting point comes to my mind when I think about the bolded part.
> 
> Could it be that after it had raised the 'ISI sponsored stone-pelters' card, India realised that doing this will only lead to more internationalisation of the issue i.e. kashmiris' protests.
> 
> I mean just think about it hypothetically for a second, imagine are GoI and you know your enemy (ISI/Pak) is sponsoring the stone pelters and inciting violence. Now, will you raise the issue internationally knowing that doing so would only lead to internationalization of the issue which will of course be only detrimental to your interests?
> 
> *My point*: It is very much possible that the current unrest is sponsored by ISI (and they have reason to do so keeping in mind the upcoming visit of Obama to India) and that the GoI firmly knows it but still it chooses to remain mum on that aspect in order to avoid attracting the attention of the international community.
> 
> Think about it! It could be a very well thought out startegy by the GoI...a very strategic move. It will be a trade-off, GoI will gain some ire of some internal stakeholders but will be successfully able to avoid the attention of the major world powers.
> 
> *SHORT TERM LOSS, LONG TERM GAIN*
> 
> It could be possible!


I still believe it's incredibly difficult for an intelligence agency to influence protestors / stone throwers. It's easier to help militants, by training and arm them. I think you're overplaying the capabilities of the ISI. This really is a organic movement that has spiralled from the siege that population feels it is under.

You know what I think is more of an issue? Forget Obama's visit. With the CWG around the corner, and the media's focus on India, how do they ensure Kashmir is kept out of the headlines?

You can't avoid internationalisation when the worlds media descends on India. For India to have the CWG's going on, and protests and killings further north is a PR disaster and awareness it most definitely wants to avoid.

Something to bear in mind.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

deckingraj said:


> Unify over what??? When there understanding of Azadi is completely different, when the end result they are looking for is completely different then may i know what is the unification for????


I just gave you the answer in the post. It helps if you read the entire thing, instead of chopping it up.

'Azadi' means the 'Azadi to determine their future', whether as part of Pakistan, India or independent.



> - There are some who complete reject this phenomenon
> - There are some who want more Autonomy for Kashmir and consider it as Azaadi
> - There are some who want complete freedom from India and merge with Pakistan
> - There are some who want complete freedom from both India and Pakistan
> - There are some who want to divide the state into three different states i.e. Kashmir, Jammu and Ladakh
> 
> So may i know what unity are you talking about??? Please understand that there is almost 2-3 months of protest and yet it has not been trickeled down to Jammu and Ladakh....Does this say something???


It says that the Kashmiris are primarily leading the cause, and that the solution perhaps lies in a regional or district wise plebiscite, or something like the Chenab formula.


> Does that mean i am not Azaad??? Do people of Kashmir(J&K) do not have the freedom to decide about their future???? See how simplest definition can be screwed...Waht you are referring to as Azaadi in simplest term is People of Kashmir shoud decide which country they want to merge with, or to be an independent country and this is where they are not united...So yes they do not know what Azaadi means.....


The people of Kashmir were never asked whether they wanted to be part of the Indian State, and therefore until they are allowed to vote in a plebiscite, they do not have the right to determine their future. I am unaware of which part of India you are from, but perhaps the people of your State did indeed in some way support Gandhi and Nehru's creation of India in 1947.

And they are united in demanding the right to choose their destiny, what they end up choosing we will only know when a plebiscite is held. But once they have exercised that right, they will at least know that they were asked, and the majority chose a particular direction.


> This is the only formulae that will work and we will end up having majority happy....people of valley will find themselves not directly under GOI control as border will be invisible, People of Jammu and Ladakh will find themselves alligned with GOI since borders are there though invisible and P-O-K people will find them free to move in and out in various parts of J&K


Again, it is not Pakistan that has refused to return to the point we left off at. You do realize that at this point India and Pakistan could have very well been at an advanced stage of implementing these proposals, and reducing their respective militaries at the borders, instead of dealing with dozens dead and massive protests.

A long standing demand of the people of G-B could be implemented at it be finally integrated into Pakistan as its fifth province. 

Of course that would also mean that Indians would have to be called out on their canard of 'its in the Indian constitution and therefore there can be no plebiscite', since the Indian constitution refers to territories held by Pakistan and China, and it will have to be amended to reflect that reality.


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## DGMO

Rudraksh said:


> To me, the anger and frustration is more a result of the constant feeling of suffocation that has existed for the last 20 years or so.


I think that's a good analysis and interpretation of 'azaadi'.

For me, the Kashmiri's feel caged. If you're caged, then you want 'azaadi'. They're caged because of the security forces on every street corner, the check-posts and constant security checks. So if I were a Kashmiri, I'd want azaadi from that.

When they say 'Go India Go', what does India symbolise for the common Kashmiri? I think India = security forces and vice versa.

Can the security forces move out? Well why are they there? Militancy right? But is militancy at the same levels of the 90's? Is infiltration at the same levels? Do we seriously want to turn on the infiltration tap in the post 9/11 and 26/11 world? Jee nahin. I don't think there is that desire.

So easing the caged environment that Kashmiri's live in now could do wonders long-term. But this comes back to those tangible actions. Easing AFSPA is a first step. It's about sincerity, and we can get to the above further down the line, but time is running out. And New Delhi knows it.

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## JanjaWeed

Patrician said:


> No no...you didn't get what i was trying to say
> 
> Kashmir was pretty much very well discussed internationally even, say, 5-6 years ago. But things are perhaps changing now as far as that 'international spotlight' is concerned.



i don't think i will agree with that entirely. It was always mentioned internationally & off late it was mentioned by recognisable faces. i e.. obama during his presidential campaign & only in september last year libyan leader gaddafi mentioned about this at U N podium. It's just that India doesn't give two hoots to who says what when it comes to Kashmir!!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

they are more than just angry and have no other alternatives except to resist the occupation

Pakistan stands by Kashmir and Kashmiris 24/7. It's too bad there arent more hours in a day. We will continue our moral, diplomatic and other support for our Kashmiri bretheren.


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## DGMO

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Perhaps time to explore the Musharraf formula again, it appeared to satisfy many on both sides, though at this point the Kashmiris will have to be involved as well IMO.


I think that is the best and most realistic solution to the dispute. It had backers both sides, and as you say, needs Kashmiri's involved also this time around.


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## foxbat

SSGPA1 said:


> If the Indian govt. and people are not listening to their just demand for independence then probably they will pick up guns and next time it may be a grenade!
> 
> BTW, Bhaghat Singh and Raj Guru blew a few grenades in the Legislative Assembly and they are heros so these Kashmiris are also heros for standing up to a brutal occupying force!



Go to the "Pro Freedom Insurgents  vs Indian army" thread to see whats happeneing to the ones with guns and grenades..

On Bhagat Singh etc, there are some explosions happening outside of India's borders as well in the neighbourhood. Are there more Bhagat Singhs in making there too??

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## Leviza

Bang Galore said:


> Please do not tax your brain. We will do our thinking for ourselves.Having flags of two countries & waving a third does not constitute internationalisation of the Kashmir issue. We are not in the habit of allowing others to decide what exactly is in our interest.



Well Kashmir is a Disputed land and ..... I have all the right to say/think about Kashmir as you do..... 

So stop saying bad things to me and its not jsut your problem. its a humanity issue in Kashmir and I will stand against it in any form i can... 

If you cant think of anything then stop posting against me....
typical indian person


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Dash said:


> You were never in your senses, when we gave substantial proof that Mumbai perpetrators were from Pakistan, you called them non-state actors.



*ahem*

did somebody call my name???

by the way, they were obviously non-state actors since their actions were not in line with the views or aspirations of the Pakistani govt.

Almost 2 years on and some numb-skulls are still confused on this very basic matter. The proof was obviously not substantial enough (beyond reasonable doubt) for our courts to deem the arrest of certain individuals as legal or justifiable




> By the way there is much we can do in kashmir and we are not doing it.



killing 75 people/day as opposed to 18? Numbers are numbers --the sentiments remain the same. Though larger numbers mean more spread out ''enemies'' and ''terrorists'' being created due to hindustan's spectacularly FAILED approach to Kashmir and Kashmiris.


BBC News - Kashmir voices: &#039;We are angry&#039;




> And about killing innocent kashmiri?, you dont worry about that,



oh yes we will! You better believe it.




> The day day they allowed themselves to be brain washed and protested against India, they lost that "Innocent" tag.



that day was over 60 years ago.....you reap what you sow




> Kashmir is Indian property, Iam not talking abt all kashmir but whatever we hold.



whatever you ''hold'' (artificially) is where all the bloodshed, oppression and chaos is occurring. 


your PM singh says (verbatim) that he is shocked and distressed to see young men and women  even children joining the protests on the streets, 

this is no new phenomenon; these are all locals protesting against atrocities and occupation being waged on them --and being facilitated by draconian laws such as the AFSPA




''worlds largest democracy''


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## DGMO

In answer to the original question I'd say 'yes' to a large extent. Of course it will get exposure and coverage in the international media etc, but in terms of diplomatic criticism, then that is profoundly muted.

I think we need to also look at Kashmir and the way it's slipped on the international stage and consciousness through the prism of 9/11, and more recently 26/11.

India hit the PR jackpot when it coined the simple but devastatingly effective term: *cross-border terrorism*.

In the eyes of the West, and with the shadow of 9/11 hanging over their thought process, the spectre of 'terrorists crossing borders to kill and injure' resonated spectacularly.

We as Pakistani's were always on the backfoot following that, as it was universally agreed that there could be 'no excuse or justification for the killing of innocents'.

So by coining that term, India IMO took a great deal of heat away from Kashmir, moving it away from a 'indigineous freedom struggle', to one which was stoked by external terrorists.

We were always on a sticky wicket after that, and slowly but surely India has consolidated its internal grip on the problem.

Under Musharraf's time, major positive moves were made, so with tension reduced between the armies, this doesn't grab the international limelight it used to. The fear was always of Kashmir being a 'nuclear flashpoint', and its chances of acting as one have been effectively diminished.

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## Patrician

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> they are more than just angry and have no other alternatives except to resist the occupation
> 
> *Pakistan stands by Kashmir and Kashmiris 24/7*.



*Ya...standing...on crutches...please do not take this as a derogatory remark. I only want to bring to your mind the sorry state your country is in because of people who thought pretty much like you. This is the truth...sad...sorry...but the truth...naked truth.*

1. Pakistan's economy
2. Internal security
3. Political stability

Tell me my friend, which one of these is not standing on crutches?

How do you guys find enough time to even think of Kashmir? What problem in the world (from terrorism to political instability to natural disaster) do you not have? 

Your apathy to your own problems and the pain caused to your people (many of them are homeless because of such sad and devastating floods and many have lost their loved ones because of terrorism) by them is simply disgusting 

For example take , everyday there of 4-5 new threads opening on kashmiris and their protests, gloating, and masochistically deriving pleasure in your neighbors pain as it struggles with its achilles' heel.

People and in fact and most importantly Pakistanis themselves seem to have forgotton the plight of millions of people who have been affected by the worst natural disaster in your history.

You guys seem to have 'moved on'...



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> We will continue our moral, diplomatic and *other support* for our Kashmiri bretheren.



That 'other support' is the very reason why you guys are in the sorry state of affairs you are in.

Cmon, come out of that Zia-Ul-Haq induced theological utopia.

You should be thinking about those who have lost their everything because of the floos instead of Kashmiris who are pretty much very well off comparably and here you are lamenting how small the number of hours a day has!

This is disgusting...have you no respect for the man on the street who lost his life because of a natural disaster which your govt. has proved to be incapable to handle after so many years of criminal neglect of economy and public welfare?

Do not think of this post as "An Indian ranting out at a Pakistani."

Think of it as "A fellow human being reminding you to be human first."

Regards,

Peace


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## Abu Zolfiqar

if i slip, fall and injure my ankle -- does it mean that I should not report to work? Does it mean I should lay in bed, sulking like a little sissy?

No, it doesn't.


it's a common and standard hindustany reaction to either

a.) bring up non-issues

or

b.) as of late, bring up floods or political situation in Pakistan



a very flawed, and immature way to approach the argument. Therefore, I will dismiss your post as ''garbage'' before even having read it in its entirety.



try again shortly


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## Patrician

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> if i slip, fall and injure my ankle -- does it mean that I should not report to work? Does it mean I should lay in bed, sulking like a little sissy?
> 
> No, it doesn't.



*Yes it does. Yes it does if that ankle is bleeding soooo heavily that it puts your life in jeopardy. Such are the desperate times when ensuring survival becomes most important and everything else must take a backseat.*

But no, why would you listen? After all I'm an Indian and you are a Pakistani. You would not listen to me even if you were drowning and I were to tell you the secret which could save your life.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> it's a common and standard hindustany reaction to either
> 
> a.) bring up non-issues
> 
> or
> 
> b.) as of late, bring up floods or political situation in Pakistan
> 
> 
> 
> a very flawed, and immature way to approach the argument. Therefore, I will dismiss your post as ''garbage'' before even having read it in its entirety.
> 
> 
> 
> try again shortly



Regular India/Indian-bashing which I see pointless to reply to.


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## nForce

SnIPeR Xr said:


> Yes there is a difference Between the way I & you think.I said you to choose one option from the three & when you saw that your point have been proved wrong.you started to derail the debate & turned away from the point by posting facts & figures.
> 
> You use Facts & Figures when you see that there is no air left in your point & you use Facts & figures to distort from your stance smartly.
> 
> Well nothing new this behaviour is very common in majority of Indian population on Internet.And this behaviour show up when they see similar situation like you.
> 
> Now tell me what these facts & figures have to do with Situation in *"Indian Occupied Kashmir"* & the *States of India*.
> 
> Now if you will look thoroughly at your post you will see that you yourself has denied the fact that unemployment is an issue.
> 
> You said that Kashmiris were well employed in the past & there was no issue of miliitancy it just started in90's.
> *Now if kashmiris were so called Well employed,Well earned happily living people & the militancy started in 90's then What caused that militancy??? .*
> *If there was no problem of unemployment then why kashmiris started the Independence movement against India.*
> *Why they turned against the Indian Occupation???*
> Ever thought about that
> 
> You will never answer this question but the answer of this question is that unemployment is not an issue in kashmir.*The cause of this movement is Ideology.They can earn by even living in Indian occupation BUT they dont want to live under Indian occupation,Under Indian brutalities because they want to join another nation which is very similar to them.They share comon beliefs, common culture & are very own to them.
> So my friend this is called Ideology & this is the isssue in kashmir.*
> I am glad that you yourself have proved your point wrong



Now it is pretty obvious that we think quite differently.As a matter of fact thinking is not something which can be called your area of expertise,let alone understanding Economics and the figures.

Your points are pretty much invalid to begin with,as you draw your own assumptions with that.Your points go invalid at this very point.You just assume way too much.While I shared the facts that pretty much speak for themselves.
The state of Jammu and Kashmir has been troubled with militancy for a long period of time.Local trouble makers like the separatists have aided further into that trouble not to mention the employment of cross border terrorism as a state policy by Pakistan.The present President as well as the previous dictator of Pakistan have admitted to this,so no point in denying again the facts.

All these issues have seriously deprived the state off development and opportunities of employment.
I had mentioned before that some youth,who were engaged in stone pelting the day before,were also seen in army recruitment camps the next day.That tells so much about their ideology and desperation.

I have also mentioned that unemployment in India,which is almost at-per with developed countries like USA and much less than Pakistan,is not evenly distributed.It is much higher in Jammu and Kashmir.I hope that answers to pretty much of your points.






> Here they are





> Pakistan is at no 10?? Thats a bit of surpise. I was kind of expecting it to be 50-55


Quoting this phrase pretty much shows how much your mind can actually comprehend.Does the word *surprise *mean anything to you??You seriously surprised me this time with your thinking capability.Being surprised does not imply either agreement or disagreement.To be honest,I didnt expect Pakistan to be in such a bad shape,but then the agencies in force have done quite a bit of job their it seems.....



> Are you so much brain washed by your BIASIN Media that you didn't hasitate a bit from stepping away from your stance.Or i think you guys can do EACH & EVERY THING when it comes to trolling



Do you actually know that Indian media is one of the most free media in the World,which has indeed significantly contributed to the development by showing us where actually is our fault and which mistake we need to rectify.We dont have anybody like Zaid Hamid in Indian media preaching hate,vandalism and radicalism.Here we have educated and sober journalists like Barkha Dutt and Pranab Roy.


> About bold part Why we should'nt rejoice.
> *We are right now concerning about ourselves but they are the one who are more concerned about ourselves.*
> *Kashmiris & Pakistanis are a family*.
> *They always struggle hard to be a part of us & Only people who consider other people family or part of their own goes to such extent of even after knowing that their other family members are in trouble thay still want to join with them.
> *
> 
> *Only people who consider some people family members or part of thier own do Such a struggle like this to join their family members so that they can together fight the problems faced by their family*.
> 
> *Now when we have family members like this why should we concern about our problems.Once we will complete our family we will fight the problems together & with Unity.*



Do you know,it was these very Kashmiris who informed the Indian Army of militant invasion back in 1948.It was again these Kashmiri shepherds who informed the Indian army about intrusion by Pakistani infiltrators at Kargil in 1999.That tells so much about the general consensus and the idea of brotherhood.

As a matter of fact,some Pakistanis are delusional about this idea of brotherhood.They tried to be close to the Americans,but now these Americans are pounding Pakistani areas with their jets.Pakistanis tried to be close to the Arabs and even sent fighter-pilots against the Israelis.But they never came to return the favour.The Pakistanis think of the Chinese as brothers.But they never came to their rescue during the all 4 wars.You now think of Kashmiris as brothers,but then the Pakistani infiltrators were spotted by Kashmiris only and they took a beating in the hands of JAKLI,again raised from Jammu and Kashmir.




> By the way
> The change is written on the wall.
> & its only in the betterment of you people of realising it soon otherwise you people have to suffer the consequences.




The change is pretty much obvious as we can see it.....While India is well on her path to be a global power,with relations all over the World and second fastest growing economy,Pakistan already features in the Top 10 of the Failed state list,with Forex reserves hitting a low of US $ 8 billion with external debt almost 8 times of it and very less or no means to pay it off in any near future.

Regarding facing consequences,at first you deal with the mess that your country has created(The Taliban),then you may be in a position to talk about that.The land of my country is not being pounded by a foreign air force,but yours is,as we speak.......

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## Abu Zolfiqar

*India&#8217;s State Terrorism​*


> Indian brutality in Occupied Kashmir once again came to the fore when its security forces shot and killed sixteen [edit - eighteen] innocent Kashmiris who were in the streets protesting the Quran burning plan of an American priest and the actual desecration by some Christian extremists outside the White House.
> 
> These protestors were armed with nothing more than stones, but the targeting of the Kashmiri youth by the Indian security forces has been part of the state terrorism unleashed by India, since June this year, against yet another generation of Kashmiris seeking freedom from Indian Occupation.
> 
> While the Indian leadership goes through the farce of expressing regret over these killings and declares the need to address the grievances of the Kashmiri people, the killings by Indian security forces cannot be taking place without the approval of the same leadership.
> 
> Unfortunately, the Pakistan government has shown a bizarre muteness on this latest bout of Indian killings in Occupied Kashmir. There is a new indigenous uprising with a new youthful leadership that has now taken up the Kashmiri cause for liberation from Indian Occupation and for their right of self determination as committed to them by Nehru and the UNSC.
> 
> Even the women have now come onto the streets and it is evident that despite Indian efforts to subdue the Kashmiris for over six decades the Kashmiris continue to pass the torch of their freedom struggle from one generation to the next.
> 
> Only after the killings on Monday did Pakistan officially condemn Indian barbarism and asked the international community to stop these killings. *But Pakistan can and should do more. *
> 
> It can freeze any moves on dialogue, cut off all access to Indian goods coming into Pakistan from vegetables to cotton, as well as the visas regime to get its message across of its foremost commitment to the Kashmir cause.
> 
> If our policy is to give all moral, political and diplomatic support to the Kashmir struggle then we should do so on all these fronts. We should also move the OIC, ineffective though it may be but it can exert some diplomatic pressure on India.
> 
> We have tended to ignore the latest intifada in Indian Occupied Kashmir &#8211; much to our shame &#8211; primarily at the behest of the US but also because of the questionable proclivities of our leadership.
> 
> It is time to alter course and expose Indian terrorist designs in Occupied Kashmir. India of course has begun a multi-track propaganda for damage limitation including denying access to the media in Occupied Kashmir.
> 
> A most devious part of this is the so-called poll by an Indian newspaper that claims to reveal that most Kashmiris favour independence and not joining Pakistan. We should see through such propagandist views and stick to our principled position of the right of self-determination for the Kashmir people which is the only way they can make clear what they want.
> 
> But it is already clear what they do not want &#8211; and generations of Kashmiris have sacrificed their lives to demonstrate this fact &#8211; and that is to remain under Indian Occupation.




India&#8217;s state terrorism | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## Speaker

DGMO said:


> In answer to the original question I'd say 'yes' to a large extent. Of course it will get exposure and coverage in the international media etc, but in terms of diplomatic criticism, then that is profoundly muted.
> 
> I think we need to also look at Kashmir and the way it's slipped on the international stage and consciousness through the prism of 9/11, and more recently 26/11.
> 
> India hit the PR jackpot when it coined the simple but devastatingly effective term: *cross-border terrorism*.
> 
> In the eyes of the West, and with the shadow of 9/11 hanging over their thought process, the spectre of 'terrorists crossing borders to kill and injure' resonated spectacularly.
> 
> We as Pakistani's were always on the backfoot following that, as it was universally agreed that there could be 'no excuse or justification for the killing of innocents'.
> 
> So by coining that term, India IMO took a great deal of heat away from Kashmir, moving it away from a 'indigineous freedom struggle', to one which was stoked by external terrorists.
> 
> We were always on a sticky wicket after that, and slowly but surely India has consolidated its internal grip on the problem.
> 
> Under Musharraf's time, major positive moves were made, so with tension reduced between the armies, this doesn't grab the international limelight it used to. The fear was always of Kashmir being a 'nuclear flashpoint', and its chances of acting as one have been effectively diminished.



Well you are giving a back-handed compliment, but the fact remains that India merely reacted smartly to what was happening. Cross-border terrorism charges cannot be denied, and 26/11 originated in Pakistan, regardless of whether they were state actors or not.

I don't want to start a fresh debate, but the Kashmiri "ethnic" struggle is limited to the muslims in the valley, and the rest of it was actually stoked by external extremists - calling them terrorists might be slightly overboard.


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## Bang Galore

Leviza said:


> Well Kashmir is a Disputed land and ..... I have all the right to say/think about Kashmir as you do.....



Who's stopping you? People having saying stuff for the last 63 years & it hasn't made an iota of difference to us. You however pretended to speak for India's interests with a mandatory line of improving the lot on the footpath. Don't be under any illusion that such comments will go unanswered.



> So stop saying bad things to me and its not jsut your problem. its a humanity issue in Kashmir and I will stand against it in any form i can...



You can stand, sit or do anything you want. We Indians could not care less. I haven't said anything* "bad"* about you nor am I inclined to do so. just not my style.



> If you cant think of anything then stop posting against me...


.

Can think of plenty but I haven't the interest or the inclination to do so.



> typical indian person



What did you expect? My flags point that out & I consider your remark of being a typical Indian high praise!

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## Dash

> *ahem*
> 
> did somebody call my name???
> 
> by the way, they were obviously non-state actors since their actions were not in line with the views or aspirations of the Pakistani govt.
> 
> Almost 2 years on and some numb-skulls are still confused on this very basic matter. The proof was obviously not substantial enough (beyond reasonable doubt) for our courts to deem the arrest of certain individuals as legal or justifiable



I didnt call your name, but Iam sure ur name is not unique, there are many

As per evidence is concerned, the world knows it, you are a Cat who is drinking milk with closed eyes thinks no body is watching it
And Numb skulls???, looks like you have a bigger % of numb skulls.
We have shown it to the world, did any one retun in favor of you. No one...We got what we wanted..



> killing 75 people/day as opposed to 18? Numbers are numbers --the sentiments remain the same. Though larger numbers mean more spread out ''enemies'' and ''terrorists'' being created due to hindustan's spectacularly FAILED approach to Kashmir and Kashmiris.



We killed 75 Anti- Indians. Good kashmiries are still with us. No one is above a country, be it a child mother or father. Even our soldiers die!.



> oh yes we will! You better believe it.



That doesnt change the reality and the reality is is Kahmir is an integral part of India. Cry until your eys get cold.



> that day was over 60 years ago.....you reap what you sow



Who is reaping and who is sawing in actually visible, the world is blind to what is happening in Kashmir, We are not bothered abt you.



> whatever you ''hold'' (artificially) is where all the bloodshed, oppression and chaos is occurring



And you were gifted Kashmir by the almighty????...



> your PM singh says (verbatim) that he is shocked and distressed to see young men and women  even children joining the protests on the streets,



He is a good man, and his words translates to peace, which you wont understand.



> this is no new phenomenon; these are all locals protesting against atrocities and occupation being waged on them --and being facilitated by draconian laws such as the AFSPA



All locals???, stastically poor analysis.



> ''worlds largest democracy''



No one changes this, we are. We can kill also. Not the communits way, not the barbarian way, but the democratic way, Mindfully killing those who is against the nation, we had the rights, we have the rights and we will use the right in years to come....


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## file12345

Dash said:


> They are protesting against India, true country men will not do it. They better be killed.



Whatttttttttttttttttttt.

It means that when subcontinent people were asking independence from British raj.So British should have killed everybody.

I really wish your thinking is that of a minority in Indian Power Corridors.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Dash said:


> I didnt call your name, but Iam sure ur name is not unique, there are many



a possibility 



> As per evidence is concerned, the world knows it, you are a Cat who is drinking milk with closed eyes thinks no body is watching it



no, that would be actually be hindustan as far as the Kashmir quagmire is concerned! 




> And Numb skulls???, looks like you have a bigger &#37; of numb skulls.
> 
> We have shown it to the world, did any one retun in favor of you. No one...We got what we wanted.



got what you wanted???? indian occupied Kashmir is erupting in flames again --another ongoing intifada/freedom struggle as I type this reply!



> We killed 75 Anti- Indians. Good kashmiries are still with us. No one is above a country, be it a child mother or father. Even our soldiers die!.



well, i'll remember this fancifully worded line next time you or your 'countrymen' bring up Bangladesh because the Mukti Bahini were anti-Pakistanis. 

Pakistan failed democratically to accept Mujibs political victory; india has been failing for 60 years to be cognizant of the demands of occupied Kashmiris. We faced the music in 1971. india is facing and will continue to face the music until Kashmir is liberated.

let that be known now, so that there are no 'suprises' in the future




> That doesnt change the reality and the reality is is Kahmir is an integral part of India.



right, we can clearly see that







> Cry until your eys get cold.













> Who is reaping and who is sawing in actually visible, the world is blind to what is happening in Kashmir, We are not bothered abt you.



We are not bothered about you not being bothered; not being ''bothered'' over the obvious is not out of character for the hindustanys.

as for world being blind, couldnt agree with you more. Pakistani diplomacy has been failing under this administration, and it wasnt until the occupying forces (the sissies) murdered 18 Kashmiris in cold blood 52 hours ago that finally our spineless politicians began to mobilize and issue statements of condemnation

The choice is now before New Delhi: will it handle the situation politically or will it intensify its repressive measures that are bound to be counterproductive and catalyst for further (spectacular) failure? 




> And you were gifted Kashmir by the almighty????...



don't get emotional; just let the Kashmiris determine their own fate and destiny.




> He is a good man, and his words translates to peace, which you wont understand.



he does no justice to his respectable credentials when he is in such a weak position whereby on one hand he gives the usual rhetoric about being ''disturbed'' and ''shocked'' while on the other hand the occupational forces (the sissies) are the reason why the valley is yet again erupting in flames

there is an uprising against the occupiers at this time

are PM Singh and his establishment on the same page as the hindustany occupational forces? Whose orders are the latter following?



> All locals???, stastically poor analysis.



tens of thousands of protestors (increasingly --more women of all ages) is saying a lot




> No one changes this, we are. We can kill also. Not the communits way, not the barbarian way, but the democratic way, Mindfully killing those who is against the nation, we had the rights, we have the rights and we will use the right in years to come....



how thoughtful! 

are the people in this so-called ''integral part'' of hindustan afforded the same??



...

or are they only at the receiving end of those ''rights''


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## Dash

file12345 said:


> Whatttttttttttttttttttt.
> 
> It means that when subcontinent people were asking independence from British raj.So British should have killed everybody.
> 
> I really wish your thinking is that of a minority in Indian Power Corridors.


That is true!!!!.....We cant commit the same mistakes that the British did. 

No brother, we are not killing every one, its in an ambush people get killed. We didnt go to doors and picked up people and killed them. A bullet has no name. 

Anyway, its a small prop who want Kashmir to be with Pak with Pak flag, looks like we have send them to Pak.


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## HAIDER

Indian govt is wasting time in intellect talk, which is beyond Kashmiri comprehension. They need freedom, that's it. This freedom will have some short falls for Indian, but India will gain alot in long term.


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## Dash

> no, that would be actually be hindustan as far as the Kashmir quagmire is concerned!



Well then have something in common, and yo uare one to figure out first.
At least we can claim that we have done many projects and tried to develope Kashmir, while the rest of India enjoys freedom under Indian law, kashmir is backward, The reality is some people wont just let it happen..do I say more? But we are working on it..



> got what you wanted???? indian occupied Kashmir is erupting in flames again --another ongoing intifada/freedom struggle as I type this reply!



Ohh, we have seen many, this is just another problem for the experienced guys. One time north east India was also like that.



> well, i'll remember this fancifully worded line next time you or your 'countrymen' bring up Bangladesh because the Mukti Bahini were anti-Pakistanis.



Please do, like I said no one is above a country and its interest.



> right, we can clearly see that



iam a democrat, so I welcome your comment. feel free for the laugh. iam sharing mine as well 



> Pakistan failed democratically to accept Mujibs political victory; india has been failing for 60 years to be cognizant of the demands of occupied Kashmiris. We faced the music in 1971. india is facing and will continue to face the music until Kashmir is liberated.
> 
> let that be known now, so that there are no 'suprises' in the future



That was not our mistake, and I know there are planning going in North block to tackle your so called surprises. I will leave it to that.



> he does no justice to his respectable credentials when he is in such a weak position whereby one one hand he gives the usual rhetoric about being ''disturbed'' and ''shocked'' while on the other hand the occupational forces (the sissies) are the reason why the valley is yet again erupting in flames
> 
> there is an uprising against the occupiers at this time
> 
> are PM Singh and his establishment on the same page as the hindustany occupational forces? Whose orders are the latter following?



Truely bad policy isnt it?. I will give you an extract from his policy. he says kille the one who attacks you, and thats what has happened, I will not let the soldiers take the beating when the protestors attack, we didnt go door to door for a killing. We are going door to door now for a dialogue and you will soon see a result. 



> tens of thousands of protestors (increasingly --more women of all ages) is saying a lot



Thats 0.5&#37; of the total population, I will call it a movement when teh state is against us and thats not teh case here.




> how thoughtful!
> 
> do the people in this so-called ''integral part'' of hindustan have these rights??
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> or are they only at the receiving end of those ''rights''



Again, you read it wrong. I meant the Law of India and She as a country. People are always at the receiving end, You know you live a better life than a normal pakistani, but there are not many like you (I believe you are rich/middle class). That is completely your choice as to how you want to live. 

Some choose struggle for non sense reasons, and they are the true ones at teh receiving end.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

syedtalha said:


> I can assure you that does not happen...


Not convincing enough.Actions speak.



> you can give our hindus in kashmir some preferential treatment if you want to, give them money, etc, or take them as migrants


, 
We"ll give them what rightfully belongs to them,as for any Indian citizen.



> or whatever you want, we wont and we dont interfere in their lives, or choices., just leave kashmir to it's *fate*,


In the past a stupid Maharajah did that.The result part Kashmir was marauded by tribals & conventional army who indulged in pillaging/raping/slaughtering/finally expelling the Non-Muslims.



> there is not a single strategic gain by maintaining an army here, as far as I know, in laddakh, siachen, etc, it is counterproductive, other than a few observation posts into china and pakistan, there is no strategic value, & if at all there is any stratgetic value


,
The army is there to stay,any territory we"ve lost since independence is in that region.Despite their maintainence our entire defence expenditure is 2.5% of the GDP. 



> it is counterbalanced by the costs, which are enormous for a country struggling with hunger, homelessness, AIDS, and poverty...


Al those mentioned above have have seen a significant drop since 1990s.AIDS is more of a success story judging the fact within 2 years a drop of 2 million in numbers was observed.




> i'm *afraid* i'm debating here again,


You definitely should be.


> i did not want to do this in the first place, but now that i did, why waste the effort, i hope you end this after answering this one, coz i dont want an *endless debate, it is really useless. *
> thanks in advance


Something finally right in your post.

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## DGMO

Speaker said:


> Well you are giving a back-handed compliment, but the fact remains that India merely reacted smartly to what was happening.


Absolutely, and I agree they did act smartly, not many times it can be said according to Indians, but South Block was on the ball for that one!


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## Tuahaa

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> if i slip, fall and injure my ankle -- does it mean that I should not report to work? Does it mean I should lay in bed, sulking like a little sissy?
> 
> No, it doesn't.
> 
> 
> it's a common and standard hindustany reaction to either
> 
> a.) bring up non-issues
> 
> or
> 
> b.) as of late, bring up floods or political situation in Pakistan
> 
> 
> 
> a very flawed, and immature way to approach the argument. Therefore, I will dismiss your post as ''garbage'' before even having read it in its entirety.
> 
> 
> 
> try again shortly



Before some dude replies, both a) and b) have happened to me lately (and not just once) by some indian people (on different occasions).


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## deckingraj

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I am not shoving anything down your throat, and for clarification I am referring to Kashmiris as in those from Kashmir, not Jammu and Laddakh. What I am pointing out is that Indians are refusing to consider the possibility that the Kashmiris want the 'Azadi' to be able to determine their future status as part of Pakistan, India or independence. By refusing to deal with that possiblity, one that was in fact promised to the Kashmiris by the Indian State, it is India that is shoving pre-conditions down the throats of the Kashmiris.



This is like shying away from reality....I don't want to go down the road of why the promise was not kept but Pakistan is equally responsible for the saga...Anyways there is nothing to gain in Blame Game....I have already explained why the issue of plebiscite is complex...if you want to ignore the reality i cannot help......




> The problem is that you want to discuss everything but the proverbial 'elephant in the room'.


That is wrong...I want to discuss what is relevant keeping ground reality in mind....



> I am sorry, but to argue that the tens of thousands of Kashmirs are on the streets asking for 'Azadi' and abusing India is because of 'animal husbandry and agriculture' is just plain ludicrous.
> 
> This argument is reflective of a deep desire to not deal with reality.



Again wrong....So much media attention, so manu shows where Kashmiri's are invited to share their views, so much talk in political circle of ways to deal with the issue cannot be considered as shying away from reality...In fact you are shying away from reality by not accepting this fact...in your terms if only viable solution is plebiscite rest everything is shying away from reality....

As far as development is concerned then yes underdeveloped areas are prone to gullible vested interests...The reason yound pakistani's in tribal areas blowing fellow pakistani's is testamount to that.....Had Kashmir been a developed area the level of rhetoric would have been on much lower scale...So whether you like it or not lack of development has a big hand in current situation......Vested Interests have related the reason for non-development to GOI occupation....This is simple logic, if you want to ignore it i cannot help....



> Industrialization is important, but why did this not happen in every single State in the Indian Union and in Pakistan before industrialization took place?


Agno, people unrest is directly related to prosperity of the country....That is the reason western countries are far more stable then Asian countries...The reason we have moists, you have problems in Baloch and other areas is directly because of development...Weren't you and I were discussing on a different thread how PA is ensuring that areas won back from Taliban should be properly developed to kill the menace for good??? Now mind it i am not saying that there are not people who wants to separate away from GOI....All i am saying is that such a level of civil unrest is not just because of Azaadi sentiments...




> The people of Kashmir are not really divided about what they want. A pretty significant majority wants 'Azadi'.


That's your problem....Whom are kashmiri's representing??? State of Jammu and Kashmir or something else??? Majority of people of Jammu and Kashmir do not want Azaadi, people inside valley are divided on what exactly is the definition of Azadi...now you want to ignore all this and stick to point which is favaouring your stand, but we cannot....




> How can accuse me of being 'dishonest' when your justification of 'dissatisfaction with agriculture and animal husbandry' is just plain ludicrous and unsubstantiated? Where is your data to indicate this is the reason for disenchantment with India?
> 
> I cannot recall any posters in these protests stating '_down with animal husbandry'_ or _'an end to agricultural jobs'_, or even more simply, _'where is our Industry and and where are our factories'_!!



I have already explained my point many times...Ignoring it will not help....Regarding the data may i know on what database you are saying that majority of kashmiri's wan't freedom???? yes there are factions who are in favour of it, similarly there are people who are against it....Your problem is that you want to talk only about Kashmir Valley whereas i am talking about the whole state....Why are you ignoring the rest of state???




> One would expect that if what you state was the primary motivation behind these protests, there would be some sign or mention of it, and such a scenario might be replicated in other regions where 'agriculture and animal husbandry' were the main professions.


Agno, are you trying to score points here???? Why are you stuck with Animal husbandry and agriculture??? Are the people in tribal areas of pakistan saying that we are bomnbing every corner of Pakistan because there is no development in these areas??? Now may i know why are you trying to develop those areas??? 




> There are various sin-off's on the plebiscite proposal that allow for district or region wise selection, or the Chenab formula for example. And if people are being invited to share their thoughts, then why refuse to consider one very real possibility of a demand for 'Azadi to choose Pakistan, India or independence'? How is that mature, when you rule out listening to possibly the underlying cause for disenchantment?



Because mature people know that things can only be done in steps...I being a party to the conflict can come up with the maximum possible compromise...I cannot say lets talk and we will do what all you want us to do...I being a party to problem will say look i am ready to talk with you under the charter of our consitution..Lets sit and come up with a compromise formulae....




> I can understand the Indian refusal to talk about the real issues and blame 'animal husbandry' - it is a disconnect with reality. Complete pullback by Pakistan is as likely as a complete pullback by India. The UNSC resolutions did not endorse it unconditionally and the UNCIP proposals on demilitarization did not endorse it either. But the rest of it can be resolved through negotiations - that is precisely why you need to 'listen' to all grievances, and be prepared to talk the issue with Pakistan. Resolution of complex issues does not come from sitting around twiddling your thumbs and refusing to acknowledge the elephant in the room.


Wow...that is completely one sided view...but i can understand that....This attitude will lead us no where...Anyways your choice....As far as issue is concerned then India is always ready to talk with Pakistan bearing enough nuts are tightened on freaks loosened by you guys....Formulae with Mush happened because India was involved in Talks, right???




> The ball is in India's court on that issue. Pakistan is not the one refusing to start off where we left off.


Actually the ball is in Pakistan's court. India is ready to talk bearing you do enough on pigs in your country....anyways lets talk about the issue in hand rather then why india and pakistan are not talking....

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## navida

Patrician said:


> Could it be that after it had raised the 'ISI sponsored stone-pelters' card, India realised that doing this will only lead to more internationalisation of the issue i.e. kashmiris' protests.
> 
> I mean just think about it hypothetically for a second, imagine are GoI and you know your enemy (ISI/Pak) is sponsoring the stone pelters and inciting violence.
> It could be possible!



ISI cannot instigate people without their will. Indian army like any other army in the world is brutal and inhumane. They have been suffocating the people of the valley for decades now. I cannot imagine how people can derive fairness out of all the brutalities happening there. The government missed the opportunity to appease the people and gain their confidence when the time was ripe. We should think what is good for the Kashmiri people and not just for our jingoism.


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## Valiant_Soul

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> You are contradicting yourself - in the last line you argue that the Princely States were subject to boundary conditions, but in the beginning you argue that there was no legal framework agreed upon for accessions. If there was no framework agreed upon, then where did the boundary conditions come from? The boundary conditions were in fact not conditions, but suggestions, and they were not binding.



No I am not, you are just failing to see the complete picture. I said the legal framework was not "completely" agreed upon, that is in terms of the princely states. Both India and Mountbatten were of the opinion that the geographical conditions should be the basis of their going with India or Pakistan. And if you are sensible, you would not refute that logic (but Pakistan did). The boundary conditions were not legally binding, but they were certainly naturally binding.



> As I pointed out before, there was nothing suggesting that the Princely States could only accede based on the nations ideology - that is an obvious canard, and you have provided nothing to support any understanding between the British, ML and Congress on that issue. What you have provided is merely commentary on the ideology of Pakistan - that does not equate to evidence indicating that the rules governing accession of States prohibited non-Muslim States from joining Pakistan.



No what I provided is the very foundation on which Pakistan was created, and that being the fact India was correct in asserting that Junagadh cannot go to Pakistan and also because it does not shares boundary with Pakistan but with India, and even because of un-containable communal violence that was on spree there.



> You did not 'keep Junagadh and Hyderabad', India invaded and occupied them. In the first case the State had acceded to Pakistan, in the latter the ruler was not allowed to make any decision. There was nothing indicating an agreement to limit the accession of States to Pakistan to only Muslim States.



As I said before, there were no agreements over the princely states.



> I agree on the part about 'same logic', and I do not dispute resolving all three contested States through plebiscite, but where is the plebiscite in Kashmir? India now refuses to even consider it.



Those terms of plebiscite on Kashmir are now lost, all for your intention to not abide by the UN resolution (see below). So let us look ahead now?



> Explicit pre-conditions, such as the ones India wants, were never formalized as part of the UNSC resolutions. The fact is that after India's hostile actions in Junagadh and Hyderabad, Pakistan was never going to vacate J&K and allow India to deploy troops to occupy the State, especially when there was no enforcement mechanism to force India to comply with the UNSC resolutions.
> 
> For that reason the actual UNSC resolutions called for discussions between UNCIP, India and Pakistan on coming up with demilitarization proposals, and UNCIP did propose many solutions, all of which were rejected by India. The proposal that India wanted, for Pakistan to completely vacate J&K, *and allow complete Indian military dominance in the territory, and then also allow India to conduct the plebiscite, was obviously not acceptable or rational, for either Pakistan or the UN.*



I do not think that is the true picture and you would agree. Excerpts of the *UN Resolution on Kashmir*:



> The Government of Pakistan should undertake to use its best endeavors:
> To secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purposes of fighting, and to prevent any intrusion into the State of such elements and any furnishing of material aid to those fighting in the State;





> The Government of India should:
> (a)When it is established to the satisfaction of the Commission set up in accordance with the Council's Resolution 39 (1948) that the tribesmen are withdrawing and that arrangements for the cessation of the fighting have become effective, put into operation in consultation with the Commission a plan for withdrawing their own forces from Jammu and Kashmir and reducing them progressively to the minimum strength required for the support of the civil power in the maintenance of law and order;
> 
> Make known that the withdrawal is taking place in stages and announce the completion of each stage;
> 
> When the Indian forces shall have been reduced to the minimum strength mentioned in (a) above, arrange in consultation with the Commission for the stationing of the remaining forces to be carried out in accordance with the following principles:
> 
> That the presence of troops should not afford any intimidation or appearance of intimidation to the inhabitants of the State;
> 
> That as small a number as possible should be retained in forward areas;
> 
> That any reserve of troops which may be included in the total strength should be located within their present base area.



Pakistan did not retracted its troops/tribesmen, and hence neither did India.

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## Speaker

navida said:


> ISI cannot instigate people without their will. Indian army *like any other army in the world is brutal and inhumane*. They have been suffocating the people of the valley for decades now. I cannot imagine how people can derive fairness out of all the brutalities happening there. The government missed the opportunity to appease the people and gain their confidence when the time was ripe. We should think what is good for the Kashmiri people and not just for our jingoism.



Exactly, what is good for the Kashmiri people as a whole...not just for the jingoism of the people in the valley.


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## rohitx007

JonAsad said:


> One question.. Do you think only the kashmir land is yours or that also includes Kashmiries you are killing every day?
> 
> Both ways: tum logon ko sharam nai ati



_*jisne ki sharam , uske fute karam
*_


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Tuahaa said:


> Before some dude replies, both a) and b) have happened to me lately (and not just once) by some indian people (on different occasions).



a lot of TTs and other higher ups have concluded that off-topic posts made in an effort to derail or create unwanted diversions should be reported.

PDFs capable management will deal with them


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

We have 3 main players in the world who can criticize India on Kashmir.
1.Western powers
2.OIC(Organization of Islamic Council)
3.China.

First the *Western Powers.*
In the 1990s,if you see any documentary on Kashmir say ABC news one or Journeymanpictures,they are heavily critical of Human rights abuses by Indian forces and also blame both India and Pakistan for propaganda.

However post 9/11 ,India's rise as a large market .Those criticisms have died down.As everyone wants a share of it.

If you also remember David Miliband ,UKs Secretary of State for Foreign affairs came under heavy fire from his opposition for mentioning Kashmir ,Media referred Kashmir as the _K-word_ as if its some kind of taboo in Global politics.

After 9/11 most of the separatist movements by Islamic groups are seen as _Islamic insurgency_ or even Islamic terrorism. For example South Thailand insurgency was attributed to Malay Pattani separatism once(because at that time Islam was the tool for countering Communist influence there.),now its called Islamic insurgency.
Same has gone for Kashmir ,also the current fact that Pakistan is the _bad guy_ and India the _good guy_, based on their performance in WOT.

*Second the OIC*
OIC has been traditionally the most vehement in voicing concerns regarding Kashmir. 
However,Events like first and second gulf war,WOT,Iran - KSA rivalry for Leadership of the Islamic world,have resulted in a fragmented leadership there.The views are getting divergent day by day.
Once Iran gets nukes the value of Pakistan being the lone nuclear power in the Islamic world will diminish.
Also they"re are aware of the growing role of India in international stage will soon be replaced with Indian clout and because of our geographic proximity we can play an important role in the middle-east.
So their volume on Kashmir is lowered.

*Finally,China*
From the recent incident of denial of visa we see China indulging in diplomatic mischief to appease Pakistan.
But when the time comes for critical decisions like UN listing of certain Kashmir based organization as terrorist group they voted against Pakistani interest.Simple reason being that it there is a chance of these groups causing disturbance in Xinjiang as well as putting future economic plans of China in Afghanistan into jeopardy.

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## Markus

Leviza said:


> *i think its in india interest to let go kashmir* and develop its people..... specially people living on footpaths.....



There will be no solution where India has to let go Kashmir. The sooner we all understand that, the better for the region.


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## Jackdaws

No major power - least of all an Asian power where egos rule the roost will let go of its territory - whatever be the moral and/or legal reasons behind it. Legally, India is on a sound wicket - according to the Indian Independence Act agreed upon by Congress and Muslim League - princely states retained their right to join either state and if Kashmir joined India because of its Maharaja then it was perfectly legal. Morally, does India have a right to Kashmir - it is a very complex question with no clear answer. Countries like Canada have held referendums in places like Quebec. Why can't India do it? Well - if 2 options were given - India and Pakistan and voting went on religious lines as expected, Kashmir would vote for joining Pakistan. But then again, in the 1960s if a referendum had been conducted in the Southern states to end segregation and give equal rights to Blacks - the African Americans would still not have equal rights. Ditto for Aboriginals in Australia as late as the 1970s. Heck, if you had a referendum in India today giving the population 2 options - to become a Hindu country or to remain secular, I wouldn't be surprised if people voted for it to become Hindu. The point I am making is that simply because a majority of a given population hold a certain view, it does not necessarily make it right.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Dash said:


> At least we can claim that we have done many projects and tried to develope Kashmir, while the rest of India enjoys freedom under Indian law, kashmir is backward



occupied Kashmir is not rebelling against the occupiers due to economic reasons

freedom under laws and backwardsness are not even related.....Orissa and even parts of Maharashtra are backwards too --but facing different issues. There is no major anti-indian activity in those areas.

you cannot equate an issue of existentialism with that of economic development 


in other words, Kashmiris are not for sale (unless your name is Omar Abdullah)




> Ohh, we have seen many, this is just another problem for the experienced guys. One time north east India was also like that.



I laugh because despite the ''experience'' you long for more 


why not just bite the bullet and approach the problem the way it should be approached....too much to handle? I guess the truth does hurt.



> iam a democrat, so I welcome your comment. feel free for the laugh. iam sharing mine as well



laughing (and daydreaming) is never a bad thing 




> That was not our mistake



supporting terrorists was; but the issue in essence --which could have been solved politically --was ours. But it's a non-issue since we've long accepted it and moved on.



> and I know there are planning going in North block to tackle your so called surprises. I will leave it to that.



well according to some of your comrades, those ''young men and women  even children  joining the protests on the streets'' (as mentioned by pm singh) are ISI-funded ''terrorists''





> Truely bad policy isnt it?. I will give you an extract from his policy. he says kille the one who attacks you, and thats what has happened, I will not let the soldiers take the beating when the protestors attack, we didnt go door to door for a killing. We are going door to door now for a dialogue and you will soon see a result.




according to the AFSPA --soldiers/police (aka the sissies) can ''invite themselves'' into somebody's home.....they can arrest even journalists, or those who use facebook to coordinate protests or post pictures of protests on the Facebook utility.

Pakistan Nation STRONGLY condemns your aggression.



> Thats 0.5% of the total population, I will call it a movement when teh state is against us and thats not teh case here.



where did you get this number?

reality check:

--Omar Abdullah gets a shoe thrown at him, very few Kashmiris blink an eye or express condemnation

--APHC chief Mr. Geelani is placed under house arrest; his political activities curbed with iron fist.......thousands of Kashmiris mobilize.




> Again, you read it wrong. I meant the Law of India and She as a country. People are always at the receiving end



the Kashmiris are facing a harsher backlash by security forces (sissies) than even the naxalites who are openly challenging the hindustany state. Former uses stones, latter uses bombs and firearms

again, the AFSPA only applies to occupied Kashmir....not to naxal/nagalandy/shiv sena/sang parivar/indian mujahideen/etc/etc/etc. dominated areas



> You know you live a better life than a normal pakistani, but there are not many like you (I believe you are rich/middle class). That is completely your choice as to how you want to live.



i don't know why I or my economic standing have to be brought into the equation





> Some choose struggle for non sense reasons, and they are the true ones at teh receiving end.



well obviously according to you, the Kashmiri uprising is nonsense. Obviously to you, holding a referendum for Kashmiris is nonsense as well.

that's just called being in denial.....can't help you there buddy


news coming out of occupied Kashmir in past few months --despite MEDIA blackout --would have me believe that it's more than just about so-called ''terrorists'' when even old aging women are joining to express their anger and desire for an end to the artificial occupation


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## Areesh

Trac said:


> Buddy dnt be so much happy ... Those paid protest cant make any change ... These all happens cause CM dnt have experience ..
> 
> *And Kashmir is Internal Part of India and no one can take it from us *



You guys are good in hurling out bullsh*t. Anyways it is better you understand that India is one thing and Kashmir is another. Neither Kashmir belongs to India nor India has anything to do with Kashmir. IOK is bound to freedom, you on the other hand can make pathetic claims like this one.


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## Markus

Countless threads running on Kashmir. 

Is it not possible to have just 2 or 3 of them?


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## majesticpankaj

Areesh said:


> You guys are good in hurling out bullsh*t. Anyways it is better you understand that India is one thing and Kashmir is another. Neither Kashmir belongs to India nor India has anything to do with Kashmir. IOK is bound to freedom, you on the other hand can make pathetic claims like this one.


i have a simple question with all due respect, HOW??


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## JanjaWeed

HAIDER said:


> Indian govt is wasting time in intellect talk, which is beyond Kashmiri comprehension. They need freedom, that's it. This freedom will have some short falls for Indian, but India will gain alot in long term.



you are not wasting your time when you are trying to resolve the issues, whatever that maybe pertaining to your citizens. about india gaining a lot in long term, i think GOI is more capable of judging what's good for the country in long term. if the status quo remains the way it is, i think every one will gain on long term. specially pakistan & kashmiris more than indians. by accepting the status quo, pakistan can start concentrating on their internal issues, which needs more attention than wasting their time in chasing the hare. if kashmir is out of the scene, then there is no reason for the two countries to compete with each other toe to toe. you can divert all the resources to the betterment of your own citizens. as per kashmiris, a whole generation of seperatists wasted their time of life trying to confront indian rule. they are the one who will stand to gain more in the long run by giving up their fight. opertunities will come calling in terms of investment, infrastructure, education, employment & the rest, which can only be good for them.


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## Donatello

StreetHawk said:


> you are not wasting your time when you are trying to resolve the issues, whatever that maybe pertaining to your citizens. about india gaining a lot in long term, i think GOI is more capable of judging what's good for the country in long term. if the status quo remains the way it is, i think every one will gain on long term. specially pakistan & kashmiris more than indians. by accepting the status quo, pakistan can start concentrating on their internal issues, which needs more attention than wasting their time in chasing the hare. if kashmir is out of the scene, then there is no reason for the two countries to compete with each other toe to toe. you can divert all the resources to the betterment of your own citizens. as per kashmiris, a whole generation of seperatists wasted their time of life trying to confront indian rule. they are the one who will stand to gain more in the long run by giving up their fight. opertunities will come calling in terms of investment, infrastructure, education, employment & the rest, which can only be good for them.






You should read news more often, because at the moment, looking at Kashmir killings, GoI has no clue how to stop it after months of violence.


Here you go...


5 killed as India looks to end unrest in Kashmir - Yahoo! News


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## Storm Force

India will never give up LAND BE IT kASHMIR OR Assam. 

The only option is has in 1947 YOU MIGRATE accross the border. to Pakistan. 

You cannot redraw borders 65 years later. 

India would be ommitting suicide..


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## JanjaWeed

penumbra said:


> You should read news more often, because at the moment, looking at Kashmir killings, GoI has no clue how to stop it after months of violence.
> 
> 
> Here you go...
> 
> 
> 5 killed as India looks to end unrest in Kashmir - Yahoo! News



my friend.. i don't think i need to read any news to learn about what's happening in kashmir. i follow pdf & it gives me more info about kashmir than anyone in entire planet earth. please read my post with patience & understand what i'm trying to say.. there is violence going on in quite a few parts of world. it doesn't mean that you give into it. let me not quote examples here..


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## prototype

no international power will be backing Pakistan of K-issue other than China,and that was proved in the recent weeks

India is emerging as a big market day by day-be it defense,automobiles,retail or infrastructure

The international players r not at all willing to leave this lucrative market for the sake of appeasement of some lunatics sitting across the border

The only possible backing that Pakistan can receive was that from the OIC,but ironically and sadly for Pakistan they to prefer to remain silent

Both KSA and Iran r vying for the oil market of India,thus the two biggest Islamic powers r themselves in the Indian pocket

Economy,clearly speaking money is that what control world politics which India have in plenty and Pakistan have in scarce

Pakistani's r not yet ready to accept that they r fighting for a losing cause,by every passing day India is getting stronger and the gap is increasing,the K-matter will b forgetted by international community like just what happened with the Tibet movement

And finally about the so called Independence movement in Kashmir,we can suppress it within a matter of days if we also choose the Israeli or Chinese way but it is our democratic system which is allowing them to register their protest,otherwise even a fly will not came to know what happened in K-land and forget any foreign power getting invilved in this

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## Hulk

penumbra said:


> You should read news more often, because at the moment, looking at Kashmir killings, GoI has no clue how to stop it after months of violence.
> 
> 
> Here you go...
> 
> 
> 5 killed as India looks to end unrest in Kashmir - Yahoo! News



We do not need to stop the violence. I think if you look differently this might help us. 
1) Kashmiri's by attacking Church created an impression to outside world is they are fanatics. Which is good for us. 
2) violent protest just tranish their image and if people think it's another SWAT of FATA in making will be helpful. 
3) Let them try very long so that they get the message that no matter what they do nothing is changing. So this needs to go on for a while till people get sick of it. This is very important factor that will help us. So do more violence make life of locals miserable as all we need.


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## Omar1984

Patrician said:


> Hi guys, as you are all aware, recent months have seen a very unfortunatre cycle of violence and unrest in J&K yet there's something very interesting to note. No major international power/organisation such as US/UK/France/China/Russia/UN/muslim or Arab world etc. has lent its voice to the kashmir issue even after so much trouble and so many deaths.
> 
> There is an unprecedented calm/silence over Kashmir in the international arena. Nobody is willing to take up the issue of kashmir except Pakistan.
> 
> My questional to all of you is, are we slowly but surely witnessing the 'internalising' of Kashmir as far as India is concerned? Are we witnessing an ever decreasing role of Pakistan/international community as far as Kashmir is concerned? There is a near total silence on Kashmir.
> 
> I,personally, feel that since India is now on its way to become a global power and a huge economic beacon of hope for the west as well as for China (in terms of India's huge market etc.) and also as the centre of global power slowly shifts from west to east and with west more and more grappling with many other much serious issues of its own which are primarily economic in nature, Kashmir has majorly lost and is still losing any international significance or relevance it one had...
> 
> What do you guys think?




The British thought the same when they were beating your people and my people to death and colonizing our land, but we did get freedom and independence when the British thought they would be ruling the subcontinent forever.


Kashmir will get its freedom and indepenence just like Pakistan and India did in 1947.


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## anurag_singh

Omar1984 said:


> The British thought the same when they were beating your people and my people to death and colonizing our land, but we did get freedom and independence when the British thought they would be ruling the subcontinent forever.
> 
> 
> Kashmir will get its freedom and indepenence just like Pakistan and India did in 1947.



I have said this before and saying it again. At that time there were 105000 british and 350 million Indians but here at most 3 million(if you consider whole valley anti India) against 1.2 billion united Indian. So you can only dream about independence.

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## Speaker

Omar1984 said:


> The British thought the same when they were beating your people and our people to death and colonizing our land, but we did get freedom and independence when the British thought they would be ruling the subcontinent forever.
> 
> 
> Kashmir will get its freedom and indepenence just like Pakistan and India did in 1947.



You are treating two things which have nothing in common. The British came and occupied foreign lands. In the case of Kashmir, one group of people (ony valley muslims) want this so called azadi, and it is nothing more than a political movement. The land has historically belonged to India, and it is your contention that it is a disputed land, and it is our contention that it belongs to us. The people are protesting against the government's apathy and the excesses of the security agencies. That is valid, and has to be addressed by the government.

BTW, you need to read up some non-Indian/Pakistani of why and how we got independence. It was well-earned of course, but not as heroic as some may make it seem.


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## deckingraj

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I just gave you the answer in the post. It helps if you read the entire thing, instead of chopping it up.


I have replied to that post as well...I chopped because there is certain aspects which is b/w you and poster whom you were replying...However i will keep it in mind next time....



> 'Azadi' means the 'Azadi to determine their future', whether as part of Pakistan, India or independent.


I don't want to repeat the same thing again and again....Being an Indian and following Kashmir politics from quite some time i can tell there is more definitions out there as well, for example - Being under Indian Rule, Being under Indian rule with greater Autonomy etc etc....I do agree that people especially in valley wants to decide on their own through plebiscite however there are scores of people who don't.....




> It says that the Kashmiris are primarily leading the cause, and that the solution perhaps lies in a regional or district wise plebiscite, or something like the Chenab formula.


I can see you are more inclined of dividing state of Jammu and Kashmir. something which is unacceptable even to scores of separatist who are part of these stone pelting demonstrations....So i am not sure how you are assuming that this formulae will be acceptable to people of Jammu and Kashmir???



> The people of Kashmir were never asked whether they wanted to be part of the Indian State, and therefore until they are allowed to vote in a plebiscite, they do not have the right to determine their future. I am unaware of which part of India you are from, but perhaps the people of your State did indeed in some way support Gandhi and Nehru's creation of India in 1947.



I am a sikh and from Punjab....I have repeatedly explained why plebiscite is complex and thinking that it can be carried out in today's world is just wishful thinking...

As far as Kashmiri's are concerned then people of Pakistan did not get a chance to choose if they want to be part of Pakistan or India, same is true with people of Bangladesh....Both My grandfather's are from Rawalpindi and they loved that place like anything, I remember them telling me stories about how beautiful lahore is even during heights of tentions b/w India and Pakistan...As far as i know they did not get a chance to decide where they want to stay via plebiscite....What do you want to say about that???? Scores of Muslims, Hindu's and Sikhs from across the country were not in favor of partition but it did happen and without any plebiscite...May i know why???? Rulers representing those people took decisions on their behalf and legalized the partition....In the same context ruler of Jammu and Kashmir legalized merger with India....Since there were conflicts on the Maharaja acceding J&K with India our PM promised a plebiscite however there were certain conditions which were not met(who is responsible i don't want to dwell on it)...Now ground reality has changed and plebiscite is not possible...Sooner people realize better it is for everybody....In short like people across Indian sub continent did not get a chance to decide where they want to stay the same way Kashmiri's did/will not get a chance to decide whom they want to stay with....Has India and Pak sticked to what was decided after 47 war Kashmiri's would have got that chance, now it is simply not possible...

Look Agno we can keep on showing lot of historic documents to each other, just to prove who is more right then other...However the best thing that can happen to this region is if people accept the ground realities....




> And they are united in demanding the right to choose their destiny, what they end up choosing we will only know when a plebiscite is held. But once they have exercised that right, they will at least know that they were asked, and the majority chose a particular direction.


Again you are just talking about people in Valley....and no they are not united on this...It is amazing you consider to go for majority of people decision in valley but do not want to consider majority of people in state of Jammu and Kashmir....



> Again, it is not Pakistan that has refused to return to the point we left off at. You do realize that at this point India and Pakistan could have very well been at an advanced stage of implementing these proposals, and reducing their respective militaries at the borders, instead of dealing with dozens dead and massive protests.


Yes i do, however do you realize this??? We came very close to the solving Kashmir but then what happened??? Surely political unstability in Pak is not India's fault, right??? This issue was the deal breaker....It is obvious GOI cannot go for a solution unless and until there is political stability in Pak and then mother of all terrorist attack and the whole dilly-dallying saga on top of it....




> A long standing demand of the people of G-B could be implemented at it be finally integrated into Pakistan as its fifth province.


that was sweet...One of the Long standing demand of people of J&K is to have one state and not separate provinces....Anyways can you please share some plebiscite information on G&B?? Also was Rest of Kashmiri's POV considered???




> Of course that would also mean that Indians would have to be called out on their canard of 'its in the Indian constitution and therefore there can be no plebiscite', since the Indian constitution refers to territories held by Pakistan and China, and it will have to be amended to reflect that reality.


Not sure what you mean by that...can you please elaborate a bit more on this???

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## NWO

anurag_singh said:


> I have said this before and saying it again. At that time there were 105000 british and 350 million Indians but here at most 3 million(if you consider whole valley anti India) against 1.2 billion united Indian. So you can only dream about independence.


I wouldn't count it out just yet. Just look at the Taliban. They should have been dealt with long ago due to numerical and technological inferiority.


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## anurag_singh

NWO said:


> I wouldn't count it out just yet. Just look at the Taliban. They should have been dealt with long ago due to numerical and technological inferiority.



There is difference between afghanistan and India. In worst case we can follow China model(Xingiyang, Tibet) easily but that is not democratic way. However that is our last resort to save territorial integrity.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Syed Ali Gilani release fresh Protest Programme ​*
Written by KMS 
Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:15 







Srinagar, September 14, 2010: The Chairman of All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) Syed Ali Gilani, spearheading the ongoing "Quit Kashmir Movement", has issued a fresh 10-day protest programme.

According to the programme, there would be complete shutdown on September 16 (Thursday) and peaceful protests after every prayers. On September 17 (Friday), there would be again a shutdown. On the day people of Bandipora and Baramulla have been urged to march to Palahalan Pattan while people of Ganderbal, Srinagar and Budgam would march to Humhama respectively. 


People of districts falling in south Kashmir, will march towards Pampore and people of Kupwara have been urged to register protest at their district headquarter.

On September 18 (Saturday) there will be complete shutdown. All the people, who are computer literate, will register their protest on different social network sites, especially facebook. Peaceful protests will continue throughout the day. On September 19 (Sunday), there will be no shutdown. On the day all the business establishments, banks, educational institutions and private institutions will remain open. People will buy essential commodities.

Syed Ali Gilani has called for "UN office Chalo" on September 20 (Monday). People will march towards the United Nations Office at Sonawar and will give a memorandum to remind them that people of Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK) want that UN resolutions should be adopted without any further delay.

On September 21 (Tuesday) there will be complete shutdown. On the day people should give reminder of "Quit Kashmir Movement" to all the military establishments and other security camps through peaceful protests up to the destinations of army establishments. On September 22 (Wednesday) there will be no shutdown. On September 23 (Thursday) Gilani has called for a shutdown to express solidarity with the political prisoner and those arrested during the past three months.

On September 24, Friday there will be shutdown and peaceful protests against the desecration of Quran. On September 25 (Saturday) and September 26 (Sunday), there will be complete shutdown. On the days, people will carry out the cleanliness drive in their respective localities from 11:00am to 1:00pm. From Nimaz-e-Zuhr to Nimaz-e-Asr, people will observe the peaceful protests. There would be no shutdown from 7:00pm to 7:00am.

In Srinagar, after the killing of nineteen youth by Indian police, yesterday, strict curfew continued today in all major towns including Srinagar, Budgam, Chadoora, Ganderbal, Sopore, Pampore, Kupwara, Handwara, Bandipore and Poonch. Indian forces fired upon protesters at Khanpora in Baramulla, killing two civilians and injuring several others. One youth injured in firing in Tangmarg yesterday succumbed to his injuries, today.


Clashes occurred in Kishtwar leaving half a dozen injured. People battled with Indian police also in Bootmen Colony, Chadoora, Sumbal and Tahab. An angry mob attacked battalion headquarters of paramilitary forces on the outskirts of Srinagar, this morning. Srinagar airport was completely closed, today, due to which flights could not operate. Locals in Tangmarg area said that over one hundred youth have disappeared since yesterday in the area. The occupying Indian authorities banned telecast of Pakistani TV channels in Occupied Kashmir.

Convenor of APHC, AJK, Chapter, Mehmood Ahmad Saghar in a statement condemned the killings of Kashmiris by Indian police. In Geneva, Kashmiri delegates, Altaf Hussain Wani and Sardar Ajmad Yousaf in their addresses to the 15th session of the United Nations Human Rights Council urged the international community to take cognisance of the grave human rights situation in Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir.

On the other hand, Donna Guest, Deputy Director of Amnesty International's Asia-Pacific programme in a statement has urged Indian authorities to carry out an effective investigation into a video clip that appears to show detainees in OSJK being stripped and humiliated by forces.

Another Hurriyat leader, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has demanded India to stop killings of innocent Kashmiris and take solid steps for resolution of the Kashmir dispute in accordance with Kashmiris aspirations. Mirwaiz Umar Farooq in a statement issued in Srinagar said that the people of OSJK were demanding their birthright of Self-Determination but the Indian forces were showering bullets and teargas shells on peaceful demonstrators.

He also appealed the international human rights organisations to put pressure on India to stop continued killings of innocent Kashmiris and amicably resolve the dispute so that permanent peace could be established in South Asia.

Kashmir delegates, Altaf Hussain Wani and Sardar Amjad Yousaf Khan in their addresses to the inaugural session of the 15th session of the United Nations Human Rights Council have urged the council to take cognisance of the human rights situation in OSJK. Altaf Hussain Wani in his addresses, while commending the report of the High Commissioner, said that human rights situation in OSJK was of no less importance than the situations discussed in the report of the High Commissioner.


He said that though the report covered wide range of issues and situation around the globe but it failed to address the human rights situation of OSJK where the peaceful demonstrators were being killed.

He said that strict grid of curfew continued for last three months, more than 70 people, mostly children were killed by Indian forces during peaceful demonstrations organised to express their demand for end to the continued culture of impunity and press their demand for right to self determination.

Sardar Amjad Yousaf Khan, Executive Director fo Kashmir Institute of International Relations, in his address said that India had given wide range of powers to its troops in OSJK by enacting Armed Forces Special Powers Act which provided them impunity for the crimes they were committing in the occupied territory.

He said that the High Commissioners report failed to mention the human rights situation of OSJK. He said that OSJK was Under Siege for last three months, which had caused serious humanitarian problem there, besides Killing more than 90 people.

The Kashmiri leader said that the population of Kashmir valley was facing shortage of food, medico especial life saving drugs. He urged the council and Human rights Commissioner to appoint a special representative for Jammu and Kashmir to assess the human rights situation.

Syed Ali Gilani release fresh Protest Programme

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## Kompromat

Good luck with mr gillani


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## mughaljee

Brother's , we are with you, 
Insha allah you will win.


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## mughaljee

New death toll is 81.


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## parasite

Flag upside down......it's insulting......at least they should have done it properly.....

ontopic--> Shiv sena are not going to be threatened by such incidences....such incidences give them excuses to promote their agenda......

A peaceful protest is desirable and highly acceptable......


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## EjazR

*Malerkotla heals, but Jammu tense*

*After Sundays violence, Malerkotla, a predominantly Muslim town 60 km from Ludhiana, witnessed a fine example of communal harmony. Amjad Ali, the CMD of Sohrab Group of Industries and a member of one of the oldest families of the area, came forward to repair the damaged church and install new furniture. His efforts ensured that an all religion prayer meeting could be held there at 3 pm on Tuesday.*

However, the situation was not normal in Jammu even as the state government tried to dispel rumours about burning of Koran in the US. For the second day on Tuesday, the administration imposed curfew in Poonch. A dozen people, including policemen, were injured when the latter lobbed teargas shells to disperse a group of stone pelters who allegedly attacked the police station at Kishtwar.

Ali, who heads a textile mill, a spinning mill and an export house, said, Sundays incident is a blot on our town and it is the duty of Muslims to come forward and ensure that the wounds are healed at the earliest. I travel all over the world for my business and wherever I go I tell people that in Malerkotla we live in peace. But what happened on Sunday was shameful. Getting the church repaired and restarted is my way of repentance. 

Meanwhile, complete bandh was observed at Mandi, Surankote and Mendhar, with people holding demonstrations and taking out rallies against alleged desecration of their holy book in the US. At some places, they burnt the effigies of US president Barrack Obama and Florida pastor Terry Jones.

*Complete bandh was observed in adjoining Rajouri district, with Muslims taking out a protest rally at the district headquarters and Hindu leaders joining the rally to condemn the alleged burning of Koran. *The situation was the same in Doda and Ramban districts, which observed near total bandh. Reports of demonstrations came in from Lohang in Kathua district and some parts of Jammu city.


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## EjazR

*'Sit Tight And Do Nothing': India's Nero Policy Towards Kashmir*

How does one explain New Delhis approach towards the ongoing violence in Kashmir valley? Though the PM and his Home Minister have been looking for a consensus and an elusive starting point, there have been clear formulations from the mainstream in J&K, on where New Delhi could begin to arrest the current round of violence. Omar Abdullah has demanded the removal of AFSPA, if not from the entire Kashmir valley, at least from select urban towns. Even many retired police officials agree to the same. Intellectuals from J&K have been asking for a debate on autonomy; Manmohan Singh himself has constituted a working group on this issue, which has given its recommendations.

What is New Delhi waiting for? There was an expectation, that there would be a special Eid package for J&K. Unfortunately, all that New Delhi could do was to convene the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), which could not reach an understanding, even on the AFSPA. Now, it has been decided that there will be an All Parties Meeting. If the government could not reach a consensus within the CCS, will it be able to generate one at the All Parties meeting? Or is that a strategy, towards shifting the blame? New Delhi may not be playing the lyre and enjoying the situation, as the legendary Nero did, but is sitting tight and doing nothing.

While many criticize New Delhi, that the central government does not have a long-term policy vis-à-vis J&K, they ignore, that not to have a policy, in itself, is a policy. So, dont blame Manmohan Singh and P Chidmabaram, for not unveiling a policy towards Kashmir. That precisely, is their policy  not to have one.

Such a policy, though it seems bizarre, is not totally irrational, from New Delhis perspective. Many inside the government and even in the security establishment believe, that the violence in Kashmir valley will subside subsequently. True, violence in the last few years has become seasonal and cyclical in Kashmir valley. Amarnath land crisis, Shopian **** case, and other such events have increased the public anger in the valley, only to subside subsequently. So, the calculation perhaps today in New Delhi is that this round of violence will also subside. So sit tight. Do Nothing. Violence will come down automatically.

Perhaps, it will. Perhaps this round of violence will continue till the end of the Commonwealth Games in New Delhi. Perhaps even extend till Obamas visit in November. After that it may subside. So, why pursue any strategy, that will result in being seen as a compromise or worse, leading to further violence?

Sounds irrationally rational. But does this augur well, in how New Delhi is viewed by the others? Forget about those who are throwing stones; how do the others in J&K and those outside see this? What kind of a message, is being projected? Dont people in Kashmir valley and outside see this as an abdication of responsibility, to ensure order and governance? Dont the security forces, especially the local police and the CRPF see this, as shifting the responsibility to them, while the political leadership remains frozen?

Perhaps, there is a conspiracy by the Hurriyat either on its own or with some tacit understanding with the PDP, as New Delhi may want to believe. The Hurriyat has been looking for an opportunity to revive its fortune. And Mehbooba Mufti cannot wait till the next elections to overthrow Omar Abdullahs government. Hence, the present violence perhaps is the conspiracy of two opportunists.

Agreed. What should New Delhi do then, other than considering this as a conspiracy and cyclical problem? If indeed, it is both, then what measures could New Delhi pursue to prevent them from being cyclical? If in 2008, there was an overwhelming response to the elections in Kashmir valley, what measures could New Delhi adopt to convert the same into a permanent peace?

Unfortunately, New Delhi seems to believe that with the 2008 elections, problems in Kashmir Valley have been resolved; whatever happened or is happening after that, (Amarnath land crisis, Shopian ****, Muzaffarabad Chalo movement, and now the mass protests) are perhaps seen as an aberrations and temporary setbacks. Demands to initiate a debate on autonomy, AFSPA and demilitarization and working group reports were thrown in the dustbin.
The only positive outcome in the recent CCS meeting was the statement, that there is a governance deficit in J&K. True, but why blame only Omar? What has been the role of New Delhi in imposing accountability in J&K? Why is that the developmental funds, sanctioned by New Delhi never moved beyond Srinagar and Jammu? Why did the district administration and the Panchayati Raj institutions fail to deliver? New Delhi has to take the blame, in failing to impose accountability, therefore ensure good governance. Blaming Omar for the governance deficit is being hypocritical.

All is not lost. Even now, a beginning could be made with restarting the debate on the working group reports, autonomy and accountability. A sit tight-do nothing-problem will subside on its own approach does not augur well for a country, which is staking its claim at the international level. People will respect those States, which take initiative, share responsibility and are willing to fail. Fear of failure, should not prevent a State from taking decisions. At least those States which want to become a part of the UNSC.





_D Suba Chandran, Deputy Director, IPCS, may be reached at subachandran@gmail.com
IPCS

The Institute of Peace & Conflict Studies conducts independent research on conventional and non-conventional security issues in the region and shares its findings with policy makers and the public. It provides a forum for discussion with the strategic community on strategic issues and strives to explore alternatives. Moreover, it works towards building capacity among young scholars for greater refinement of their analyses of South Asian security.

Through close interaction with leading strategic thinkers, former members of the the Indian Administrative Service, the Foreign Service and the Armed Forces, the academic community as well as the media, IPCS has contributed to the strategic discourse in India. Its Executive Committee reflects a mix of experience and expertise and is currently headed by Mr. Eric Gonsalves, former Indian Foreign Secretary to the Government._


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## Areesh

> IslamabadFollowing urgent steps have been taken by the Prime Minister of Azad Jammu and Kashmir Sardar Attique Ahmed Khan to sensitize the international community as well as mobilizing domestic political environment:
> 
> 1. The Prime Minister moved for an urgent exclusive AJK Assembly session on IHK, seeking parliamentary parties in-House consensus to respond to the deteriorating IHK situation
> 
> 2. Announced holding of APCs  one on Kashmiri political level in Muzaffarabad and other on national level in Islamabad in the first week of October, 2010.
> 
> 3. He sent urgent communications to the Islamabad-based ambassadors of permanent member-countries of the US Security Council.
> 
> 4. Has sought time from the Islamabad-based embassies to lead Kashmiri delegation to brief the ambassadors on IHK deteriorating situation.
> 
> 5. He is leading a Kashmiri delegation for participation in the annual meetings of the OIC Foreign Ministers in the UN headquarters in New York on September 22 and 24, 2010.
> 
> 6. Announced public protests/rallies on Friday, September 17, 2010 by Kashmiris in and outside of the country to demonstrate solidarity with the struggling Kashmiris in IHK.
> 
> 7. Arranging truckloads of food aid for occupied Kashmir through the agency of International Red Cross Committee. The consignments can pass through agreed crossing points on the Line of Control. *The food will be distributed irrespective of religious/political affiliations as a 5-month long curfew has driven the occupied Kashmiris to the brink of starvation. *
> 
> *8. Arranging a special food aid flotilla for IHK. That will also pass through agreed crossing points.*
> 
> 9. Has sent appeals to the Islamabad-based ambassadors of five permanent member countries of the UN Security Council drawing their attention towards worsening situation of human rights, Kashmir youth killings by the Indian Death Squads under the garb of Indian army sent specially by New Delhi to IHK.
> 
> 10. Gave TV interviews to emphasize to the national and international communities to speak against Indian savagery in IHK.
> 
> 11. Launched international appeals for urgent probe into the killings of innocent Kashmiri youth by the Indian Death Squads in IHK.
> 
> 12. Moved the Kashmiri-origin parliamentary members of the European countries to lodge criminal cases against India in the International Court of Justice.



Attique takes urgent measures


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## Donatello

Needle in a haystack..or light at the end of the tunnel

Whichever you prefer, i guess!


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## Patrician

Attique takes urgent measures
Hameed Shaheen

Islamabad&#8212;Following urgent steps have been taken by the Prime Minister of Azad Jammu and Kashmir Sardar Attique Ahmed Khan to sensitize the international community as well as mobilizing domestic political environment: 

1. The Prime Minister moved for an urgent exclusive AJK Assembly session on IHK, seeking parliamentary parties in-House consensus to respond to the deteriorating IHK situation;

2. Announced holding of APCs &#8211; one on Kashmiri political level in Muzaffarabad and other on national level in Islamabad in the first week of October, 2010.

3. *He sent urgent communications* to the Islamabad-based ambassadors of permanent member-countries of the US Security Council.

4. *Has sought time from the Islamabad-based embassies* to lead Kashmiri delegation to brief the ambassadors on IHK deteriorating situation.

5. He is leading a Kashmiri delegation for participation in the annual meetings of the OIC Foreign Ministers in the UN headquarters in New York on September 22 and 24, 2010. 

6. Announced public protests/rallies on Friday, September 17, 2010 by Kashmiris in and outside of the country to demonstrate solidarity with the struggling Kashmiris in IHK. 

7. Arranging truckloads of food aid for occupied Kashmir through the agency of International Red Cross Committee. The consignments can pass through agreed crossing points on the Line of Control. The food will be distributed irrespective of religious/political affiliations as a 5-month long curfew has driven the occupied Kashmiris to the brink of starvation. 

8. Arranging a special food aid flotilla for IHK. That will also pass through agreed crossing points.

9. *Has sent appeals* to the Islamabad-based ambassadors of five permanent member countries of the UN Security Council drawing their attention towards worsening situation of human rights, Kashmir youth killings by the Indian Death Squads under the garb of Indian army sent specially by New Delhi to IHK.

10. *Gave TV interviews* to emphasize to the national and international communities to speak against Indian savagery in IHK. 

11. *Launched* international appeals for urgent probe into the killings of innocent Kashmiri youth by the Indian Death Squads in IHK. 

12. *Moved* the Kashmiri-origin parliamentary members of the European countries to lodge criminal cases against India in the International Court of Justice.



*Care to elaborate what has been the effect of all these efforts? Zilch? Zero? Null?*

*Has anything changed?*

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## Areesh

Patrician said:


> *Care to elaborate what has been the effect of all these efforts? Zilch? Zeri? Null?*
> 
> *Has anything changed?*



These steps would definitely have more effect than yesterdays held all parties conference. On the other hand it is good he is showing concern for Kashmiris in IOK. He is also a Kashmiri.

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## civfanatic

> Valley violence virus attacks Jammu
> Forces fire on Poonch protesters
> MUZAFFAR RAINA
> 
> 
> Srinagar, Sept. 15: The deadly virus of violence today crossed over from Kashmir to Muslim-majority districts in Jammu where security forces opened fire on protesters, killing four of them.
> 
> Prime Minister Manmohan Singhs promise of a healing touch had little effect in Jammus Poonch district where there were huge protests against the alleged desecration of the Quran in the US and the civilian killings in Kashmir. The toll in the three-month-long unrest in the Valley now stands at 93.
> 
> These are the first killings in Jammu. They have taken place at a time Hindu groups in the region are bracing for a showdown against any proposed withdrawal of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act or any political package for the state.
> 
> Police sources claimed the protesters were killed in Mendhar area after a large group assembled outside a missionary school and tried to set it on fire. Fierce clashes ensued, in which 15 protesters and 30 policemen were injured. The protesters also torched eight government buildings.
> 
> Curfew has been clamped in the township and the army requested to help maintain law and order.
> 
> Khalid Hussain, a Mendhar resident, claimed the protesters had been demonstrating peacefully when security forces used brute force to disperse them. We had assembled near the school. Perhaps worried that we may target it, they (security forces) opened fire at us.
> 
> Poonch police chief Manmohan Singh, however, said the protesters had tried to torch the school. Sources said the school was intact but the government buildings had been burnt down.
> 
> *There have been protests in all Muslim-majority districts of Jammu  Poonch, Rajouri, Doda, Kishtwar and Ramban  to express solidarity with the Kashmiris*.
> 
> *Public opinion in the Jammu region about the Valley unrest is, however, divided on communal lines. Hindus are a majority in Jammu but Muslims outnumber other communities in five of its 10 districts.*
> The Sangharsh Samiti, a new avatar of the Shri Amarnath Sangarsh Samiti that spearheaded the Amarnath land agitation in 2008, is strongly opposed to any concession to the Kashmir-centric groups. Yesterday, it threatened to launch an agitation if the Armed Forces Special Powers Act was diluted.
> 
> We believe the turmoil in Kashmir is because of non-governance. Omar Abdullah is advocating the agenda of the separatists and anti-national forces, a samiti spokesperson said.
> 
> Snub to talks offer
> 
> Hurriyat hawk Syed Ali Shah Geelani tonight said the separatists were not willing to talk to any team from Delhi.
> 
> We will not meet any delegation. Unless there is positive movement on our demands, there is no question of being part of any dialogue process, he said.
> 
> Geelani has proposed five conditions for participating in talks: accepting Kashmir as an international dispute, withdrawing troops, releasing prisoners, revoking special powers to forces and punishment to security forces involved in killings.
> 
> A moderate Hurriyat leader said: It is New Delhi s old formula to hold these meetings to prolong the deadlock in the expectation that it will tire the people. We have been part of a dialogue process in the past but that only eroded our credibility. Joining any such process now will be suicidal.



The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | Valley violence virus attacks Jammu Forces fire on Poonch protesters


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## bandit

civfanatic said:


> The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | Valley violence virus attacks Jammu Forces fire on Poonch protesters



You have highlighted some points in the article, all related to religious divide in the valley-whats your point?

I'll highlight some too that I think are more directly related to the violence in the valley-care to go over them as well.



> Snub to talks offer
> 
> Hurriyat hawk Syed Ali Shah Geelani tonight said the separatists were *not willing to talk *to any team from Delhi.
> 
> We will not meet any delegation. *Unless there is positive movement on our demands, there is no question of being part of any dialogue process*, he said.



Now don't blame Indian govt to be the stubborn asshole whose more interested in keeping the vallley on fire.


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## Areesh

* Karzai says ready to play role to end Kashmir violence*



> ISLAMABAD: Afghan President Hamid Karzai said he is raring to play a role to put an end to the recent wave of violence in Kashmir, if Pakistan or India sought him to do so, Geo News reported Thursday.
> 
> Addressing a joint press conference along with President Asif Ali Zardari, Karzai said he enjoyed cordial relations with the Indian leadership, adding he is all primed to to exterminate the rousing restlessness in Kashmir by using these relations.



 Karzai says ready to play role to end Kashmir violence


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## compak

Areesh said:


> * Karzai says ready to play role to end Kashmir violence*
> 
> 
> 
> Karzai says ready to play role to end Kashmir violence



lol 
lol, he can't even come out of Kabul and ready to play. idiot.


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## EjazR

*Demonstrate spirit of accommodation, give Kashmiris a chance: Sonia in all party meet | ummid.com*

New Delhi: Kashmiri youth who have grown in the &#8220;embrace of violence of conflict and brutality&#8221; need to be given hope, Congress president Sonia Gandhi said Wednesday at the all-party meeting to discuss the crisis in the volatile Kashmir Valley.

&#8220;We know that there are some inimical forces within and beyond the state and we understand the extreme pressure and dangerous circumstances our police and security forces face in protecting our sovereignty and territorial integrity,&#8221; Gandhi said at the meeting presided over by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

The meeting held at the prime minister&#8217;s 7, Race Course Road official residence was called to discuss measures to defuse the volatile situation in the valley, where 88 people, mainly teenagers and youth, have died in violent protests since June 11.

Gandhi, who was leading the Congress party delegation in the meeting, said: &#8220;But we also must ask ourselves why there is so much anger. Why there is so much pain, in particular among the youth.&#8221;

&#8220;The young especially belong to a generation that has grown up in the embrace of violence of conflict and brutality. We must give them hope. We must understand and respect their legitimate aspirations.

&#8220;This should be reflected in what we say and decide. We need to be magnanimous and mature in our approach as besets strong confidence and inclusive democracy,&#8221; Gandhi said.



*Kashmir, integral part of India*

Jammu and Kashmir is an integral part of India, Sonia Gandhi said during the meet and stressed that a "spirit of accommodation" could end the turmoil and conflict.

"Jammu and Kashmir is an integral part of our country and democracy. The people of Jammu and Kashmir are our people. They are our citizens," she said at the all-party meeting presided over by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

"Let us demonstrate... the spirit of accommodation. This alone I believe can create a space for reconciliation and bring an end to turmoil and conflict," she said at the meeting held at the prime minister's 7, Race Course Road residence.

The meeting was called to discuss measures to defuse the volatile situation in the valley, where 88 people, mainly teenagers and youth, have died in violent protests since June 11.

"My party is more than willing to support the process of healing and dialogue in partnership with the people of Jammu and Kashmir," Gandhi said.

She expressed her "deep sense of sorrow at the continuing loss of life in Kashmir".

"I share the anguish of those who have lost their loved ones and my heart goes out especially to the parents and families of children who have died. I regret not sharing their grief in person. I also offer my condolences to the families of our security forces who lost their dear ones in Kashmir," she said.

She appealed to all political parties to take a &#8220;suitable decision&#8221; to break the &#8220;vicious cycle of violence and suffering&#8221; in Jammu and Kashmir.

&#8220;Together let us arise at a suitable decision on which we can all agree to break this vicious cycle of violence and suffering,&#8221; Gandhi said at the all-party meeting presided over by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh here.

&#8220;Let&#8217;s put aside our ideological and political differences. We are facing far too serious a challenge to allow those differences to stand in the way of resolute sensitive and appropriate action,&#8221; Gandhi, who led the Congress delegation at the crucial meeting, said.


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## doctor_who

kashmir is going in right direction *these idiots who are holding guns and even the people holding stone are seen as evil in the eyes of Indian and even world.*

pakistan is already suffering for supporting wrong people who are comign back to hit paksitan. they are getting causious about what step to take. should they help/or not these kashmiri terrorist organizations. 

youth who is blinded and trying to be daredevil terrorist is shot dead. 

indian forces need to tighten up their belt and get really tough. 

*indian govt. soft stand of removing AFSPA should be dealth with serious opposition from indian people.*
*
protecting the country and its land from evil intention for indian is as important as paksitani are doing in swat . they cant let the talbani get hold of their land just because the local feel they want a diffrent country. *


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## HAIDER

But no evac of forces from city limit or reduction of forces from Kashmir. Means more trouble in coming days. Yesterday meeting..


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## Areesh

HAIDER said:


> But no evac of forces from city limit or reduction of forces from Kashmir. Means more trouble in coming days. Yesterday meeting..



Yeah it was just a useless APC. Just for the face saving of the govt.


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## HAIDER

Damn funny guy, Well he carry Pakistani ID card. He has right to say that...


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## JonAsad

doctor_who said:


> *
> protecting the country and its land from evil intention for indian is as important as paksitani are doing in swat . they cant let the talbani get hold of their land just because the local feel they want a diffrent country. *



You are claiming swat? are people of swat shouting we want to join india? can you differentiate between oranges and lemons?

Kashmir is disputed territory between two nucleared armed countries.
Definately not a case to be compared with swat.


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## doctor_who

JonAsad said:


> You are claiming swat? are people of swat shouting we want to join india? can you differentiate between oranges and lemons?
> 
> Kashmir is disputed territory between two nucleared armed countries.
> Definately not a case to be compared with swat.



india is not claiming swat. but even kashmiri are not claiming to be with paksitan they want what taleban want. 

*free country.*

just because a bunch of idiot want to go n die and want seprate country its not accepted by whole nation. give them one tight slap and ask them to get back in line.

if they want peace in valley and oppertunity they will be heard but without stones. if they pick up stones they will have to face same music over n over.
*kashmir is not property. *


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## pakomar

Dash said:


> That is true!!!!.....We cant commit the same mistakes that the British did.
> 
> No brother, we are not killing every one, its in an ambush people get killed. We didnt go to doors and picked up people and killed them. A bullet has no name.
> 
> Anyway, its a small prop who want Kashmir to be with Pak with Pak flag, looks like we have send them to Pak.



its has been going out for so many years. its look like a small propaganda to you but its only the first time its comes on media like this other wise thing like these are happening in kashmir for so long. nothing new only you saw it first time. I think.


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## somebozo

let him play a role in ending insurgency in his own country first.


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## pakomar

doctor_who said:


> india is not claiming swat. but even kashmiri are not claiming to be with paksitan they want what taleban want.
> 
> *free country.*
> 
> just because a bunch of idiot want to go n die and want seprate country its not accepted by whole nation. give them one tight slap and ask them to get back in line.
> 
> if they want peace in valley and oppertunity they will be heard but without stones. if they pick up stones they will have to face same music over n over.
> *kashmir is not property. *



for your info swat and other trible area of Pakistan are part of Pakistan and they are recognized by other countries as part of Pakistan. where as kashmir a undisputed territory. what ever happening in Pakistan is its domestic problem. how many movements are going in India. if that the case then why you guys are not giving them independence.


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## doctor_who

pakomar said:


> for your info swat and other trible area of Pakistan are part of Pakistan and they are recognized by other countries as part of Pakistan. where as kashmir a undisputed territory. what ever happening in Pakistan is its domestic problem. how many movements are going in India. if that the case then why you guys are not giving them independence.



india have told this over n over that kashmir is our internal matter, even european coutnries have realised it and accepted it.

yes they dont support indian in paksitan held kashmir. they agree that its part of paksitan now. 

if you can give freedom for every house hold. there wont be a nation left, same goes for paksitan too. every next village want freedom and their own rules.


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## majesticpankaj

world is mum over kashmir, but why?? i can't able to figure out.


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## Omar1984

Western media reports on India Occupied Kashmir (IOK).


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## majesticpankaj

i was talking about the official Government stand


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## Omar1984

Arundhati Roy, Indian novelist and human rights activist, speaks in a Pakistani show and says international community needs to intervene in Kashmir (She speaks in the 3rd video Dunya TV-POLICY MATTERS-15-09-2010-3).


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## Evil Flare

doctor_who said:


> india have told this over n over that kashmir is our internal matter, even european coutnries have realised it and accepted it.




No .. Its not your Internal matter .... Without Pakistan it cannot be solved .


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## EjazR

*Revoke Disturbed Areas in Kashmir towns: CPI-M*

New Delhi, Sep 16 (IANS) Pointing to excesses by security forces, Communist Party of India-Marxist (CPI-M) leader Prakash Karat has sought the revocation of Disturbed Areas in Srinagar and other urban centres in the Kashmir Valley.
&#8220;Given the sharp decrease in the levels of militant violence, there should be a reduction in the deployment of the army and the security forces proportionately,&#8221; Karat said at an all-party meeting on Kashmir convened here Wednesday by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

&#8220;Here the question of the continuance of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) arises,&#8221; he said, referring to a legislation that gives sweeping powers to security forces and which many in the Kashmir Valley say should go.

&#8220;The army is not deployed or in use in Srinagar and other cities. Pending the question of amending AFSPA or the future of this act, what we suggest is that the Disturbed Areas proclamation be revoked from Srinagar and other urban centres.

&#8220;This will make the AFSPA redundant in these areas&#8230; The armed forces are conducting an arduous and difficult task and their work has to be concentrated on checking infiltration (militants) from across the border,&#8221; he said.

&#8220;The real issue is about the accountability of the security forces&#8221; Karat added. &#8220;There have been excesses and violations of human rights&#8230; Without firm action, we cannot instil any faith in the (Kashmiri) people.&#8221;

The CPI-M released the text of Karat&#8217;s speech Thursday.

The Marxist pointed out that many of the 90 people killed in firing by security forces in the Kashmir Valley since June 11 were aged between nine and 25 years.

&#8220;Repeated police firings and every death has further aggravated the situation,&#8221; he said. &#8220;There was no justification for this brutal policing methods.&#8221;

He said that there had to be a political approach to the Kashmir problem. &#8220;There can be no solution by just deploying the security forces to suppress such protests.&#8221;

Karat demanded that many of the young boys in jail should be released if they were not facing serious charges. &#8220;Juveniles should not be kept in prisons.&#8221;

He said many had been permanently incapacitated in firing. &#8220;The government should announce a specific package for relief for these people and also for the sustenance and livelihood of their families.&#8221;

Karat said when he went to Srinagar in August, many asked him why the Indian parliament showed no great concern over the killing of such a large number of people in the Kashmir Valley.

&#8220;In parliament, there was an uproar when three people died in police firing near Aligarh. They asked, why is parliament quiet about the happenings in the valley?&#8221;


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## EjazR

*Kashmir delegation*

Notwithstanding the unimpressive outcome of the prime minister&#8217;s all party meeting on Wednesday, the proposed visit to Valley by an all-party delegation should not be allowed to go waste. From Delhi end, those organizing the tour will have to move beyond the worn-out model of visiting a troubled state.

The visit will have to focus on people rather than the political elite of Kashmir. In past, the model of such assessment tours has been all about coming here, enjoying the luxurious state hospitality and talking to the government functionaries on the sidelines. This has to change if the delegation really wants to gain a brighter understanding of the ground realities. Meeting local mainstream players or reopening the channels of communication with the separatist forces in Valley is crucial to any goodwill visit, but it is also imperative that the visiting delegation also listens to the people. That is possible only if the upcoming tour is conducted as per a dynamic prescription rather than a beaten track. Going back with a firsthand account is what should be the primary agenda of the visitors. To achieve the desired results, they should bypass the secondhand sources and directly reach out to the people. They should meet representatives of small and big trades; they should get to know how the educated professionals feel; they should interact with victims, doctors and video journalists who are eyewitness to what has been happening on ground. Before they embark on this challenging task of reading the Kashmiri mind, the participants of the all party delegation must remember that a dozen or so careerists who want to worm their way into the corridors of power does not constitute Kashmir&#8217;s civil society. Every right thinking person, every concerned citizen who has a bit of articulation represents the civil society. In order to achieve maximum out of this effort, the visitors will have to invest all the resources at their disposal to reach out to the right people. On the other hand, Kashmir&#8217;s civil society should not shy away from talking to whoever comes from Delhi to assess the situation. If the right people stay away, the wrong people will talk, and give them a tailor-made version. Whether sending an all party delegation is really a well thought out, sincere step, or yet again a time-buying tactic, is a question that needs answer. And the correct answer to this crucial question could be found out only if those coming are briefed correctly. *Kashmir situation, it must be noted, is no longer a puzzle. People on streets want Azadi. Similarly, people are no longer unaware of Indian position; India won&#8217;t give Azadi. The real challenge is to find out how much can calm down those who brave bullets for Azadi. If the delegation wants to discover an acceptable solution, it needs to set out for the blood-soaked Valley, not just prepared but with open mind.*


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## Nihat

It's quite obvious that Kashmiri's are angry and don't even want to be considered a part of india. They keep up these sort of violent protests and soon the Indian Govt. might start dumping them across the border to the land of honey and milk.

Cause it's a the valley that belongs to india, the people who don't want to live with india are free to go wherever they want, it's a matter of basic human right and choices, a person can live wherever he wants.


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## Patrician

Areesh said:


> These steps* would definitely have more effect* than yesterdays held all parties conference. On the other hand it is good he is showing concern for Kashmiris in IOK. He is also a Kashmiri.



When? When all the protesters have gone home after running out of steam?

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## Leviza

Typical Indian Comments


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## Areesh

Patrician said:


> When? When all the protesters have gone home after running out of steam?



Nobody has gone home the death toll has reached 90. And the situation is still worst.


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## EjazR

Welcome to Kashmir Times

JAMMU, Sep 15: Amid frenzied atmosphere across the state and elsewhere, the members of civil society of Jammu, cutting across party and religious affiliations, today took out a peace march to soothe the frayed nerves and also to spread a message of peace and communal harmony.
*The peace march was aimed at snubbing the alleged act of a lunatic in United States of America (USA) to desecrate the holy Quran in a bid to create a wedge between the two communities.*
Besides holding the peace march, the winter capital of the state also showed the way as how such outrageous acts should be treated with desired contempt and the ideal way is to present a united face.
As a part of two-pronged strategy, in the peace march the members of all communities participated unequivocally condemning the alleged act of desecration and thus not allowing the fanatics to dominate the saner voices at this crucial hour.
On the other hand, the representatives of Christian and Muslim communities also addressed a joint press conference wherein the Christians condemned the illogical and nasty threat made by Florida Pastor to burn holy Quran, which fortunately later he withdrew. In the same press Muslims of Jammu, while condemning the acts of violence in Kashmir and some parts of the state against Christians, assured full support and protection to them.
Commenting upon the incidents of violence in various parts of the state in reaction to alleged desecration act in USA, the leaders of Muslim and Christian communities on Wednesday urged the people to maintain communal harmony, amity and brotherhood.
From Muslims side came the assurance to Christians, There is no need to feel insecure.
The peace march, which started from Shaheedi Chowk after passing though different markets of the city, culminated outside Raj Bhawan.
The participants were raising slogans for maintaining communal harmony and brotherhood in the region.
Prominent among the others who participated in peace march included NC provincial president Rattan Lal Gupta, president Chamber of Commerce YV Sharma, S Peter, Feastus Sotra, SM Gill, Rev. Sohan Lal, Shokat Peter and President BAR Association Jammu Sunil Sethi.
Earlier Jammu and Kashmir Joint Churches Fellowship Jammu and Muslim organizations in a joint meeting resolved to maintain peace and communal harmony in the state. The members of both the communities agreed that they wont allow the miscreants to create any disturbance and appealed the people belonging to both the communities not to fall prey to the rumours. Ex MLC SM Gill, Rev Issac Bhatti, Pastor Robin Bhatti, Feastus Sotra besides other attended the meeting.
Following it, a joint press conference was organized wherein the vice-president, Jammu and Kashmir Joint Churches Fellowship, Rev Sohan Lal while condemning the threat made by Florida Pastor to burn holy Quran asserted that the Christians across the world disagreed with such unwise decision.
He maintained, To desecrate any religious book is totally unacceptable in a civilized society and Christians of state strongly condemn such type of acts. People should not pay any heed to the rumours as some anti-social elements are hell bent to disrupt the secular fabric in Jammu and Kashmir. He appealed both the communities to strengthen secularism and maintain communal harmony.
*The Muslim Action Committee (MAC) president, Abdul Sharief Sartaj while condemning the alleged act of desecration of holy Quran asserted that Christians of Jammu and Kashmir had nothing to do with the announcement of Florida Pastor.
He also condemned the incidents in Kashmir Valley where Christian institutions were disrespected and appealed the Muslim community to maintain sanctity of age-old brotherhood and communal harmony in Jammu and Kashmir.*
He stated, The protest to resent any disrespect to religion was the right of Muslims but it should be peaceful and not against any religion and community.
Sartaz however demanded stern action against Florida Pastor who had made such a despicable announcement which had serious repercussions in the entire world.
He also warned both the communities against rumour mongers.
The members of both the communities had held a meeting yesterday also to give a message of communal harmony and brotherhood.

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## Tuahaa

Nihat said:


> It's quite obvious that Kashmiri's are angry and don't even want to be considered a part of india. They keep up these sort of violent protests and soon the Indian Govt. might start dumping them across the border to the land of honey and milk.
> 
> Cause it's a the valley that belongs to india, the people who don't want to live with india are free to go wherever they want, it's a matter of basic human right and choices, a person can live wherever he wants.



That's a contradiction. See, the people of Kashmir see Kashmir as their own land. They want to live there- however, they don't want to be with India (they have their own reasons). So the only answer is to break off Kashmir. Why would they want to move out if they want to live in Kashmir? No, they will fight for independence. Also, note that "Dumping them across the border to the land of honey and milk" is actually not okay. You are showing that you just want a piece of land that the Kashmiris see as their own- after all, it has a Muslim majority (i.e. wasn't supposed to go to India).

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## Abu Zolfiqar

doctor_who said:


> kashmir is going in right direction *these idiots who are holding guns and even the people holding stone are seen as evil in the eyes of Indian *and even world*.*



please elaborate.....even human rights groups in hindustan are rallying against the occupational forces (the sissies) demanding an end to their iron fist tactics against Kashmiris




> pakistan is already suffering for supporting wrong people who are comign back to hit paksitan. they are getting causious about what step to take. should they help/or not these kashmiri terrorist organizations.



I would warn you not to make the mistake of thinking Pakistanis (govt. or civilians) view the protestors as terrorists

the issue here is more than just protestors exercising a democratic right; the issue is the more macro one --> india fails to adhere to the Kashmiri peoples right to self determination. It's a very artificial arrangement that can only be enforced using guns, teargas, laathi and rubber bullets.

the more Kashmiris the security forces and police (sissies) kill in cold blood, the more people will mobilize and engage in protest and civil disobedience




> youth who is blinded and trying to be daredevil terrorist is shot dead.



the youth are the future generation. They arent robots. They deplore hindustany occupation and are openly expressing their resentment. 



> indian forces need to tighten up their belt and get really tough.



what more can you do than what you are already doing? The sissies are already using live ammunition into large crowds. 



> protecting the country and its land from evil intention for indian is as important as paksitani are doing in swat .



SWAT is not disputed territory. The conflict was over masses (and Armed Forces) eradicating miscreants who had captured the valley and tried to impose their will. The problem is largely solved, and Swat is back to normalcy.

Kashmir is a disputed territory. There is no foreign meddling in ioK --as many residents there have proclaimed. Purely a local, Kashmiri phenomenon. 



> they cant let the talbani get hold of their land just because the local feel they want a diffrent country. *



the Kashmiri locals are demanding an end to hindustany occupation

to them, the occupational forces (the sissies) are like the local taleban......using the AFSPA they can even enter peoples' homes without search warrant, they can detain youth, in fact they even are intimidating journalists and facebook users....

very democratic behaviour 



it'll come back to bite you; the more you kill, the more enemies you will (are) creating


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## Abu Zolfiqar

deckingraj said:


> I am a sikh and from Punjab....I have repeatedly explained why plebiscite is complex and thinking that it can be carried out in today's world is just wishful thinking...
> 
> As far as Kashmiri's are concerned then people of Pakistan did not get a chance to choose if they want to be part of Pakistan or India, same is true with people of Bangladesh....Both My grandfather's are from Rawalpindi and they loved that place like anything, I remember them telling me stories about how beautiful lahore is even during heights of tentions b/w India and Pakistan...As far as i know they did not get a chance to decide where they want to stay via plebiscite....What do you want to say about that????



oye! Singh saab!

first of all, it isnt wishful thinking. It's only ''wishful'' to the hindustanys who keep crying nonsense about the so-called ''pandits'' who ran away from the valley for economic reasons --next door to hindustan. 

Based on status quo, hold a referendum. Quit making up non-issues over the militancy; it would be ended once the area is de-militarized and hindustans stops its state practice of aggression, suppression and **** of Kashmir (the land & people)

as for Pakistan and your ancestors, they were more than welcome to stay but on their own they fled. We have Sikhs living in Pakistan and they are doing just fine. Every year your khatris come to our land and they are received well, and enjoy our world famous hospitality.

Lahore is indeed a magical and wonderful city. You should plan to make the holy pilgrimage sometime. You'll NEVER want to go back 




> that was sweet...One of the Long standing demand of people of J&K is to have one state and not separate provinces....Anyways can you please share some plebiscite information on G&B?? Also was Rest of Kashmiri's POV considered???


 
Azad J&K is not seeing the uprising that is being seen on hindustany side. But to answer your question, please first familiarize yourself with Pakistan's clearly stated policy on Kashmir.


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## deckingraj

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> oye! Singh saab!


Walekum Aslam Bhaijaan(i hope i got it right 



> first of all, it isnt wishful thinking. It's only ''wishful'' to the hindustanys who keep crying nonsense about the so-called ''pandits''* who ran away from the valley for economic reasons* --next door to hindustan.



This itself shows how much well versed you are with Kashmir politics...Anyways not your fault...Hawks from both sides never let negative sentiments reach their side if they are responsible for it....

However if you are an intellect and understand geo-politics and how things work then i am sure you can find out that plebiscite is nothing but wishful thinking...I would like to bring your attention to the event when we were close to solving Kashmir i.e. 2003-2007, there was no mention of plebiscite in that formulae either....So your choice whether you want to close you eyes and keep thinking about plebisicte or get a reality check and focus on what is possible....



> Based on status quo, hold a referendum. Quit making up non-issues over the militancy; it would be ended once the area is de-militarized and hindustans stops its state practice of aggression, suppression and **** of Kashmir (the land & people)


Sorry but your one sided and utterly biased option has been outright rejected many times....The solution is quit sponsoring terrorism and come to dialogue table with open mind.....




> as for Pakistan and your ancestors, they were more than welcome to stay but on their own they fled. We have Sikhs living in Pakistan and they are doing just fine. Every year your khatris come to our land and they are received well, and enjoy our world famous hospitality.


So you missed the whole bloody point, don't you??? Was plebiscite held to ask where they wanted to live(same is true for Muslims on this side)....My great grandfather was this close to shoot my grandmother and her 4 sisters had mobs turned towards them...So lets not indulge into nonsense comments...

The truth is many people on both sides did not want to leave but had to fled or else risk their lives....No refrendum was help to find out what people want and their representative's(politicians) took decision on their behalfs....Similarly decision was taken for Kashmir by the caretaker...Now the only reason referemdum is considered because our PM promised it btu on certain conditions...Those conditions were never fulfilled and i hold both sides responsible for it....In today's world that thing is not possible...This is ground reality and you or I cannot change it...So better we all get a reality check and see what else can be a viable solution...Otherwise we can keep fighting for eternity and the people for whom we are fighting will keep suffering....

Almost 2-3 months of unrest, 80 odd people dead and yet not a single international statement on this issue tells that Kashmir is an internal issue.....Arm struggle is not possible b/w Pak and India so not sure how else can India be forced to do what Pak wants...In short reality check is the need of hour....Rest your choice....




> *Lahore is indeed a magical and wonderful city*. You should plan to make the holy pilgrimage sometime. You'll NEVER want to go back


No doubt about it...Whatever i heard from my grandpa you are absolutely correct....





> Azad J&K is not seeing the uprising that is being seen on hindustany side. But to answer your question, *please first familiarize yourself with Pakistan's clearly stated policy on Kashmir.*



Don't want to derail further about affairs of P-O-K but we have to deal with some meddling from your side as well...Anyways if you are talking about official stand of Pakistan then let me share with you official stand of India - "J&K is integral part of India"....In other words if i want to be rigid, the message is the state is integral part of India, period....Now will there be anything left to talk???? So better come out of your official stand of Pakistan syndrome and talk, otherwise i am afraid there is not much to talk, no????

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## Abu Zolfiqar

deckingraj said:


> Walekum Aslam Bhaijaan(i hope i got it right



nice 



> This itself shows how much well versed you are with Kashmir politics...Anyways not your fault...Hawks from both sides never let negative sentiments reach their side if they are responsible for it....



While I have my views and opinions; while I have my biases I try to be as fair and reasonable as possible.

thats why I say that let Kashmiris in Azad and Occupied Kashmir hold a referendum to determine their aspirations. Most democratic thing to do in an internationally recognized *DISPUTED* territory.



> However if you are an intellect and understand geo-politics and how things work then i am sure you can find out that plebiscite is nothing but wishful thinking...



If you are hawkish and dogmatically clinging to a notion that (in reality) is unproven and devoid of logic ---then you will assert that Kashmir in its entirety is an integral part of hindustan.

very difficult to subscribe to such, given the current uprising and state of unrest




> I would like to bring your attention to the event when we were close to solving Kashmir i.e. 2003-2007, there was no mention of plebiscite in that formulae either....So your choice whether you want to close you eyes and keep thinking about plebisicte or get a reality check and focus on what is possible....



so, was the issue resolved or was it just ''close'' 

there you go.




> Sorry but your one sided and utterly biased option has been outright rejected many times....The solution is quit sponsoring terrorism and come to dialogue table with open mind.....



nothing unfair about plebisite...i think your country is scared of the eventual result, knowing what the outcome would be




> So you missed the whole bloody point, don't you??? Was plebiscite held to ask where they wanted to live(same is true for Muslims on this side)....



the Kashmir issue has a religious dimension to it; but overall it is a territorial issue, not a religious one. I think that rather than pointing guns at eachother and saying ''this is mine'' and ''that is not yours'' --- give the power and choice to the people on the ground there

quite simple, really...




> The truth is many people on both sides did not want to leave but had to fled or else risk their lives....No refrendum was help to find out what people want and their representative's(politicians) took decision on their behalfs...Similarly decision was taken for Kashmir by the caretaker..



Many Kashmiris say ''we don't want peace until we have a solution''

that is how things will play out....




> So better we all get a reality check and see what else can be a viable solution...Otherwise we can keep fighting for eternity and the people for whom we are fighting will keep suffering....



I'm glad you mentioned ''the people''
 
some of your more emotional countrymen say ''screw the people, we just want the land''





> Almost 2-3 months of unrest, 80 odd people dead and yet not a single international statement on this issue tells that Kashmir is an internal issue.....



no, it just means that the issue doesnt get the coverage that it should be getting....occupied Kashmir is not a very welcome place for international media persons; the only way to get information is from local newspapers




> No doubt about it...Whatever i heard from my grandpa you are absolutely correct....



you act as if you aren't welcome in Lahore or Pakistan. Like i said, every year the Sikh Khatris come and they are received warmly --even as indians. 

Pakistanis are world famous for hospitality. 




> Don't want to derail further about affairs of P-O-K but we have to deal with some meddling from your side as well...Anyways if you are talking about official stand of Pakistan then let me share with you official stand of India - "J&K is integral part of India"....



quite frankly, how far is this ''stand'' getting you??? Look at the news.




> In other words if i want to be rigid, the message is the state is integral part of India, period....Now will there be anything left to talk???? So better come out of your official stand of Pakistan syndrome and talk, otherwise i am afraid there is not much to talk, no????




?All-party meet futile exercise to hoodwink int?l community? | Kashmir Media Service



> In occupied Kashmir, the All Parties Hurriyet Conference Chairman, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Gilani have termed the All-Party Meet on Kashmir, held in New Delhi with Indian Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh in chair, as a futile and time-buying exercise aimed at hoodwinking the international community and Kashmiris.
> 
> Mirwaiz Umar Farooq in a statement issued in Srinagar said that the meeting had no clarity of purpose. He maintained that Kashmiris were clear in their demand for right to self-determination.
> 
> He said that the visit of an All-Party delegation to the occupied territory would not serve any purpose. I dont understand for what purpose the All-Party delegation will visit the Valley after 90 killings. Everybody is abreast of the situation in Kashmir and India must accept the reality that Kashmiris are rendering their lives for right to self-determination and not for economic packages, he added.
> 
> The Mirwaiz said, the need of the hour is to stop killings in the territory, repeal black laws like AFSPA, withdraw troops from civilian areas and release all the illegally detained Kashmiri Hurriyet leaders and youth. Ironically India is talking through the barrel of gun. In past two days, over 20 unarmed protesters have been brutally killed. Talks, peace efforts and killings cant go together. If India is serious it has to translate its concern into actions, the APHC Chairman maintained.
> 
> On the other hand, Syed Ali Gilani in a statement issued in Srinagar described the holding of All-Party Meet a futile and time-buying exercise aimed at denying the Kashmiris their inalienable right to self-determination. He said that following the killing of 90 people in the Valley, Kashmiri people had hoped that New Delhi would shun its rigid stance on Kashmir but the outcome of the meeting was disappointing and negative for them.
> 
> The veteran leader pointed out that since 1947, India had been resorting to dilly-dallying tactics to deny the Kashmiris their rights. India even failed to fulfill the promise of its first Prime Minister, Jawaharlal Nehru to let Kashmiris decide their future. It took the dispute to the United Nations and has been delaying implementation of its resolutions which empower Kashmiris to choose their destiny, he said. He added that it was high time for India to resolve the Kashmir dispute. »


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Protests in Azad Kashmir Against Indian Violence​*


> MUZAFFARABAD Pakistanis set fire to an effigy of the Indian prime minister Thursday, marching to protest against India over three months of violence in the divided Himalayan region of Kashmir.
> 
> Protestors marched through Muzaffarabad, before setting on fire the Indian flag and an effigy of Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.
> 
> The crowd shouted "Go India, go back," carrying placards scrawled with slogans such as "Indian dogs, go back".
> 
> "India is forcing us to cross the Line of Control and we will, if it does not stop atrocities in Indian-occupied Kashmir," said Syed Salahuddin, a leader of Hizb-ul-Mujahedin.
> 
> Ninety-four anti-India protesters have been shot dead in three months of violence in the Indian-administered part of Kashmir.




Protests in Azad Kashmir against Indian violence - GEO.tv

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## Skeptic

After coming across several claims of Pakistani suport to Independent Kashmir, and the moral high ground frequently claimed by some members (Including Admins like Asim), I have conducted an exhaustive research and have not come across a single incident of this view being propagated or even suggested in official channels.

Infact, the pre condition for holding ANY office in so called Azad Kashmir is to swear to an Oath :


> *I will remain loyal to the country and the cause of accession of the State of Jammu and Kashmir to Pakistan*



This applies to positions from president, Prime minister, Minister, Speaker, MPs , MLCs etc.

Additionally, (2) *No person or political party in Azad Jammu and Kashmir shall be permitted to propagate against, or take part in activities prejudicial or detrimental to, the ideology of the States accession to Pakistan.*

Link: http://www.ajkassembly.gok.pk/AJK_Interim_Constitution_Act_1974.pdf (Official Constitution of so called Azad KAshmir)

This essentially means any pro-independence group will not be allowed to be established or survive on Pakistani specially Kashmiri land. Even a group supporting accession to India will not be allowed.

Can you explain this and give me a single incidence of Pakistan officially supporting the cause of Independent Kashmir?? Leave alone supporting, even identifying it...

I am not speaking about random press quotations which are easily denied but formally documented and concrete actions. Has this view ever been iterated at any international meet.

The support to right of "Self Determination" has a catch - it has only 2 options India and Pakistan.

If I have overlooked certain incident, be kind enough and bring it to my notice or else quit taking this moral high ground.

Thanks and regards,

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## IBRIS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> you act as if you aren't welcome in Lahore or Pakistan. Like i said, every year the Sikh Khatris come and they are received warmly --even as indians.



Didn't mean to get into your healthy discussion what's with specific differentiation strategy. There are also Lubanas, Jatt's, Mujbee's, Khatri's, Chamarr's. 

Why Khatri's only.? 

You don't have to respond to my ? but shouldn't generalize Sikh's, mate. You could just say SIKH's and that would make your point very clear.

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## KashmiriPandit

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> oye! Singh saab!
> 
> first of all, it isnt wishful thinking. It's only ''wishful'' to the hindustanys who keep crying nonsense about the *so-called ''pandits'' who ran away from the valley for economic reasons --next door to hindustan. *




*Talk about rubbing salt on someone's wounds!*


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## deckingraj

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> While I have my views and opinions; while I have my biases I try to be as fair and reasonable as possible.


I hope what you are saying is correct, however some of your comments especially related to Kashmiri Pandits were shear bias or ignorance....



> thats why I say that let Kashmiris in Azad and Occupied Kashmir hold a referendum to determine their aspirations. Most democratic thing to do in an internationally recognized *DISPUTED* territory.


Easy to say almost impossible to implement....Refrendum had lot of conditions attached to it as said it is next to impossible...The issue here is you do not want to address the complexities involved in refrendum and just keep on repeating the word...Look out for my post above where i am talking with Agno, you will find out what i mean by complexity....




> If you are hawkish and dogmatically clinging to a notion that (in reality) is unproven and devoid of logic ---then you will assert that Kashmir in its entirety is an integral part of hindustan.


well if you look around then same applies to your notion...My stand is unification of Kashmir is not possible, so is demand of plebiscite....This si being realistic, are you????




> very difficult to subscribe to such, given the current uprising and state of unrest


No it is not if you start looking at J&K and not just at valley...and if you understand that even in valley people are divided over what should be the definition of so called azaadi then honestly it is not that difficult to look, however do you want to look at like that???



> so, was the issue resolved or was it just ''close'' there you go.


what do you mean??? Issue has not been resolved from past 60 years, so what's the point??? If you want to be fair then give the comment its proper respect, why trying to act smart??? As said the closest we have been in solving this issue was during 2003-2007 period where plebiscite was not mentioned. In other words people understood the ground reality and try to come up with out of box solution(which is the only way to go), however unfortunately political turmoil in Pak started and thereafter mumbai happened which bring us back to status quo, having said it i will not be surprised that whenever dialogue proess will start the same forumule will be looked at...In short open your eyes and admit the ground reality....





> nothing unfair about plebisite...i think your country is scared of the eventual result, knowing what the outcome would be


Here you are not being fair...If you really want to be then understand the complexity regarding plebiscite....Let me put it this way....In your eyes what steps you think Pakistan should take for GOI to go for plebiscite so that it becomes a fair deal??? Now as you said you try to be fair let me get your view point and then i will share mine, deal???





> the Kashmir issue has a religious dimension to it; but overall it is a territorial issue, not a religious one. I think that rather than pointing guns at eachother and saying ''this is mine'' and ''that is not yours'' --- give the power and choice to the people on the ground there
> 
> quite simple, really...


Two things wrong up there...
a) This is not simple and once you answer my question above i will tell you why??
b) If you honestly think that it is territorial issue then why are you not considering people in Jammu and Ladakh and just follow the sentiments of people in valley??? Have you already decided that valley should be a separate state in itself???




> Many Kashmiris say ''we don't want peace until we have a solution''that is how things will play out....


Being an intellect tell me how is it possible to have a solution without peace??? What other choice do you have??? 




> I'm glad you mentioned ''the people''some of your more emotional countrymen say ''screw the people, we just want the land''


Well i cannot account for everybody here but general comment is those who don't want to stay with India can leave, Kashmir is going to stay with us... I being a little more humble will say, lets be realistic....and party here is GOI, Separatist and their followers, GOP.....rest of the people(of J&K) just want a peaceful and prosperous life which have been denied to them because of actions by above three parties mentioned....




> no, it just means that the issue doesnt get the coverage that it should be getting....occupied Kashmir is not a very welcome place for international media persons; the only way to get information is from local newspapers


This is like living blindfolded....The only way to get information is from local newspapers??? my foot....By the way even Indian media is airing views of people having anti-india feelings openly....Abu either you are pretending to be fair or need to be more informed before you type such baseless allegations...Lets be hinest here, Pakistan has been trying to internationalize the issue, however not succesful...Yes it is an international recognized dispute but that's about it...It is, was and remain a bilateral issue till it get resolved for good...With india's growing influence the international support(whatever it is) for the cause of Kashmir will keep on diminishing...and this is why it is utmost important for Separatist to admit the reality and relook at their demands....



> you act as if you aren't welcome in Lahore or Pakistan. Like i said, every year the Sikh Khatris come and they are received warmly --even as indians.


I never said that i am not welcome..All i was telling you what my Grandpa used to tell me....In fact i know that on internet we spew venom but when we meet in person and especially overseas we just go along very well....I still remember how people in Mohali(place close to Chandigarh) volunteered to host Pakistani guest coming to watch Cricket Match b/w India and Pakistan during 2003-2004(i hope i am correct with the year)....




> Pakistanis are world famous for hospitality.


So are indians and in general Asians....We are enemy's but still same people... 





> quite frankly, how far is this ''stand'' getting you??? Look at the news.
> ?All-party meet futile exercise to hoodwink int?l community? | Kashmir Media Service


Nowhere,Though i do not expect such a complex issue with so many vested interests to be resolved in an all party meet(it need lot of time and out of box thinking) but may i humbly ask where is your stand of plebiscite taking you???

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## KashmiriPandit

The place where I come from, there's only difference between hindus and sikhs, that of turban.

Otherwise Hindus and Sikhs in kashmir are more brothers than brothers.


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## SnIPeR Xr

nForce said:


> Now it is pretty obvious that we think quite differently.As a matter of fact thinking is not something which can be called your area of expertise,let alone understanding Economics and the figures..


Now it is pretty obvious that most of your post is filled with..
"I think that way,you think that way".

"You talk like that ,I talk like that". 
And this is the point in someones debate when he turns personal towards the other person by starting to pointing out his way of debate.This shows utter desperation of a person in a debate.



> Your points are pretty much invalid to begin with,as you draw your own assumptions with that.Your points go invalid at this very point.You just assume way too much.While I shared the facts that pretty much speak for themselves


.
Let us first decide who started with assumptions.
Isn't it a assumption that unemployment is a problem in kashmir.
*"Are these speculations come out from a survey in which Kashmiris said that 'Because we are unemployed, So thats why we want Independence from India'??? "* 
There is no way the rattling of Indians that unemployment is a problem in Kashmir can be justified.
Unemployment is not a problem in Kashmir & it cant be a problem in kashmir.
Kashmir has so much resources that every kashmiri can make himself or his region a wealthy part of this world.
But its not the way Indians want Kashmir to be.
*Can a person even can go to his workplace with ease when there are 0.7 MILLION armed mens in uniforms of indian army Pointing Guns towards him Outside his house???*
*The same armed men with ***** of raping thousands of unarmed innocent kashmiri womens,girls and children.
The same armed men who are the cause of disappearence of thousands of innocent unarmed kashmiri men.* 
Now for god sake please dont put this blame too on ISI because *Reports of "Amnesty International,UN & INDIAN MEDIA ITSELF are enough to unviel dark faces belong to your country.*



> The state of Jammu and Kashmir has been troubled with militancy for a long period of time.Local trouble makers like the separatists have aided further into that trouble not to mention the employment of cross border terrorism as a state policy by Pakistan.The present President as well as the previous dictator of Pakistan have admitted to this,so no point in denying again the facts.
> 
> All these issues have seriously deprived the state off development and opportunities of employment.
> I had mentioned before that some youth,who were engaged in stone pelting the day before,were also seen in army recruitment camps the next day.That tells so much about their ideology and desperation.
> 
> I have also mentioned that unemployment in India,which is almost at-per with developed countries like USA and much less than Pakistan,is not evenly distributed.It is much higher in Jammu and Kashmir.I hope that answers to pretty much of your points.


Wow wow. 
You people are making world records of ignorance & putting your blames on others.
Now according to your opinion POOR PAKISTAN has deprived kashmiris from the RICHER INDIA by offering them handsome amounts.
Pakistan's stance on kashmir was always remains the same That we are helping Kashmiris diplomaticaly.
Please elaborate when did we said that we used militancy in kashmir?
Oh no no actually this is not the question the question is that how CAN WE be engaged in any militancy in kashmir???

When worlds cruelest 1 MILLION armed mens are doing militancy in kashmir then how can any one needs to do any thing militarily?

The answer to this rubbish that we used militancy is that When after 2004's earth quake the American & NATO forces arrived in Azad jammu Kashmir Pakistan for relief efforts & remained there for a while why they couldn't found any militant training camp or facility there even there were reports of some spying by US forces in that region????
If there were any training camps then they could have been easily found by them & then reported to International media.but that didn't happen.
Why so???


It is because there were no training camps or facilities & thats why they couldn't found them.Simple as that


> Quoting this phrase pretty much shows how much your mind can actually comprehend.Does the word surprise mean anything to you??You seriously surprised me this time with your thinking capability.Being surprised does not imply either agreement or disagreement.To be honest,I didnt expect Pakistan to be in such a bad shape,but then the agencies in force have done quite a bit of job their it seems.....
> 
> 
> 
> *Do you actually know that Indian media is one of the most free media in the World,*which has indeed significantly contributed to the development by showing us where actually is our fault and which mistake we need to rectify.We dont have anybody like Zaid Hamid in Indian media preaching hate,vandalism and radicalism.Here we have educated and sober journalists like Barkha Dutt and Pranab Roy.


Joke of 21st century 

Now for Biasness there is another term being Invented by nforce that biasness is freeness.

Now tell me you said the rubbish about unemployment.Suppose if your point is taken to be true then why this upheavel in kashmir is cannot be stopped by eradicating the so called employment problems???
Its whose responsibility to show all of these problems???
Isn't its medias responsibility???

Before posting this foolishness have you stepped out from the cave in which you live?

Listen Guy/girl now the world has changed so much that if a person,organization or a state listen two different news from two differnt chanels, One from Pakistan suppose Geo or Express and another from india,can be any channel (Apart from the means of TOI)
Then do you on which one he/she,it/they will put there ears???
the answer can be find out with this fact that former ones channels has a record of not posting such things which didn't belong to reality & the latter ones.... , Now what what can I say they sometimes surpass the fiction movies of hollywood.I think you got the answer.

About Zaid Hamid,
The only Thing i can say is that whatever he thinks or speaks didn't comply with indian minds thats why he is biased,
But the Biasness spurred by some indian journalist is not biased(According to the Indian mentality) because they comply with indian mentality



> Do you know,it was these very Kashmiris who informed the Indian Army of militant invasion back in 1948.It was again these Kashmiri shepherds who informed the Indian army about intrusion by Pakistani infiltrators at Kargil in 1999.That tells so much about the general consensus and the idea of brotherhood.
> 
> As a matter of fact,some Pakistanis are delusional about this idea of brotherhood.They tried to be close to the Americans,but now these Americans are pounding Pakistani areas with their jets.Pakistanis tried to be close to the Arabs and even sent fighter-pilots against the Israelis.But they never came to return the favour.The Pakistanis think of the Chinese as brothers.But they never came to their rescue during the all 4 wars.You now think of Kashmiris as brothers,but then the Pakistani infiltrators were spotted by Kashmiris only and they took a beating in the hands of JAKLI,again raised from Jammu and Kashmir.


Dont call the minority groups of kashmir as a whole of kashmir.There are also hindus & other groups live in kashmir who obviously want to join India but the majority is muslim & wants to join Pakistan.

Do you know that these kashmiris helped to liberate the half of the kashmir which is now called AZAD JAMMU & KASHMIR.
Do you know that in 1948 these kashmiris fight against the dogra raj in jammu 

Dont call support of those minority groups as a support of whole kashmiris.


And we never tried to be in close with American.Perhaps Pakistani nation didn't.
The relation of Pakistan & US is more than a relation ship of needs of both.

But relation ship with china is brotherhood.

You said about chinas support in war.
They were the one who helped us militarily in 65.
They provided us a lot of help to build our armed forces.
They were the ones who informed us about the Planned collective indo-israel Invasion on our Nuclear sites.
If you dont have friends like china then dont say anything about the sincerity & brotherhood about Pak-china relations.

And we din't helped Arabs to get some support in exchange& niether we expected it.

Well you tried hard to derail the point of kashmiris brotherhood towards pakistan by bringing America,china and Arabs but you failed. 


> The change is pretty much obvious as we can see it.....While India is well on her path to be a global power,with relations all over the World and second fastest growing economy,Pakistan already features in the Top 10 of the Failed state list,with Forex reserves hitting a low of US $ 8 billion with external debt almost 8 times of it and very less or no means to pay it off in any near future.
> 
> Regarding facing consequences,at first you deal with the mess that your country has created(The Taliban),then you may be in a position to talk about that.The land of my country is not being pounded by a foreign air force,but yours is,as we speak...



Yes the change is pretty much obvious.The kashmiris didn't want to live with Rising power India but with trouboled Pakistan.

The TTP is a mess created by Indo-Us
& Afghan taliban are not a mess.


In the End Unemployment is not a problem in kashmir.But indians are trying to make this excuse as a escape goat.

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## DesiGuy

* Anti-India rally held in Kashmir*


Don't worry. it will be put down soon.

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## aristocrat

how can kashmir be bought on par with other states if it given a special status.The kashmiri youth need inspiration from people like this 
Dad killed by ultras, doctor from Kashmir tops IAS - The Times of India


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## Abu Zolfiqar

DesiGuy said:


> * Anti-India rally held in Kashmir*
> 
> 
> Don't worry. it will be put down soon.



oh, i'm sure it will be nobody denies that 

by the way, aren't bandhs and protests allowed in hindustan? This pretty much negates this whole ''integral part of india'' broken-record rheotoric we keep hearing

thanks for clearing out, and refuting this misconception shared among some of your people


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## Nihat

Tuahaa said:


> That's a contradiction. See, the people of Kashmir see Kashmir as their own land. They want to live there- however, they don't want to be with India (they have their own reasons). So the only answer is to break off Kashmir. Why would they want to move out if they want to live in Kashmir? No, they will fight for independence. Also, note that "Dumping them across the border to the land of honey and milk" is actually not okay. You are showing that you just want a piece of land that the Kashmiris see as their own- after all, it has a Muslim majority (i.e. wasn't supposed to go to India).



those same Kashmiri's showed no remorse in throwing out others i.e. Pandits, Shia's, Buddhists, Sikhs (conversion threat) and Christians (school burning). They are willing to punish any and everyone who does not seem to agree with them on the matter of cessation from India.

Booting out other communities and then asking for plebeside is like having your cake and eating it too.

Besides, nations act in self intrest. Let me take the example of Pak's "taller than mountains" friend China. It occupied tibet in the most brazen way possible on the fragile premise that it was a part of ancient China. Tibet was a sovereign nation state with it's own government, culture and foreign relations but that never stopped china as it continues to hold on to tibet because that is in china's National intrest. Natives of Tibet be dammed.

In the same way Kashmir is in India's national intrest, it is the source of fresh water, seperates China and Pakistan geographically for without it the connectivity between both would have been seamless and much faster. That is enough reason to hold on to the valley land. The local Sunni Muslims be dammed.

Also, an independent Kashmir would become a client state of Pakistan which in turn is a client state of China and America and India dos not want that situation either.

So , Local Kashmiri's would do well to make peace and settle for Autonomy at Max. with Foreign relations and defence being in India's hands. Using violent methods will only get them killed and frankly the world no longer cares for Extremist Islamist movements.


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## IBRIS

> "India is forcing us to cross the Line of Control and we will, if it does not stop atrocities in Indian-occupied Kashmir," said Syed Salahuddin, a leader of Hizb-ul-Mujahedin.


Perhaps this clown leader of H-u-M should attempt to cross the LOC himself first before advicing the locals to cross into Indian Kashmir. 

GOD willing, I wish he would and see the carnage his followers had committed. This butcher should grow some ballsack, instead of trying to convince locals to do ISI's dirty work for them.


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## aristocrat

^^peaceful protests r.bandhs r illegal.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

then perhaps you should write a letter to the New York Times editor; considering there was an entire article about the ongoing ''bandhs'' throughout your country in yesterday (15 Sept 2010) edition...seems the ''ruling'' against them is far from enforced


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/15/world/asia/15strike.html


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## Omar1984

Nihat said:


> It's quite obvious that Kashmiri's are angry and don't even want to be considered a part of india. They keep up these sort of violent protests and soon the Indian Govt. might start dumping them across the border to the land of honey and milk.
> 
> Cause it's a the valley that belongs to india, the people who don't want to live with india are free to go wherever they want, it's a matter of basic human right and choices, a person can live wherever he wants.



Kashmir belongs to the *KASHMIRIS* thats where they live in, their ancestors lived in, and where their roots began. Kashmir doesnt belong to any gujrati, rajasthani, tamil, bahari, and the rest of you.


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## StingRoy

Omar1984 said:


> Kashmir belongs to the *KASHMIRIS* thats where they live in, their ancestors lived in, and where their roots began. Kashmir doesnt belong to any gujrati, rajasthani, tamil, bahari, and the rest of you dravadian bharatis who stick out like buffaloes when standing next to a Kashmiri.



How about the Kashmiri Pandits?... are they not Kashmiris? or you refuse to consider them as a part of the legacy of Kashmir because they were Hindus. 

Stop splitting our country again on the basis of religion. I am sure the Kashmiris will get a lot more opportunities if they learn to live in India like people of all other religion have.


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## StingRoy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> oh, i'm sure it will be nobody denies that
> by the way, aren't bandhs and protests allowed in hindustan? This pretty much negates this whole ''integral part of india'' broken-record rheotoric we keep hearing
> 
> thanks for clearing out, and refuting this misconception shared among some of your people



Bandhs and protests are allowed in India as a part of the basic human rights to its citizens... but violent protests are dealt with force... lathi charge.. mass arrests... no one is allowed to destroy public property in the name of protests and bandhs.
If you want to make a point, you are welcome to do so as long as it is peaceful.


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## PakiiZeeshan

How can indians deny that flag being held by proud Kashmiris is the Pakistani flag? this is proof of how some pathetic indians behave when it comes to the truth. too bad we Pakistanis, have to deal with this nonsense everyday on everything about Pakistan on the internet


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## Ganguly

PakiiZeeshan said:


> How can indians deny that flag being held by proud Kashmiris is the Pakistani flag? this is proof of how some pathetic indians behave when it comes to the truth. too bad we Pakistanis, have to deal with this nonsense everyday on everything about Pakistan on the internet



Nation Integrity will not & should not be compromised at any cost. We do have lot of political parties and different views on kashmir, they fight on every issue but there is only one consensus among all. Kashmir is an integral part of India and it would remain so.


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## Omar1984

The South Asia Media Commission (SAMC) on Thursday urged the Government of India to lift the undeclared ban on the media'' in Kashmir. 

Taking a serious note of the violations of freedom of press and freedom of movement, the SAMC in a statement said: We ask the Indian government to uphold democratic values in Kashmir, and order the security forces to facilitate journalists and let them perform their duties.''

Quoting from the online edition of the Srinagar-based English daily, Greater Kashmir, the SAMC said the curfew and restrictions forced local newspaper organisations and television networks to suspend their operations. The authorities have also banned local channels from airing news bulletins and ordered cable operators to take off the air all unregistered channels.

According to SAMC chairman Kumar Ketkar and secretary general Najam Sethi, the incidents of thrashing of journalists and tearing their curfew passes by men in uniform show how crippled the media is in Kashmir. 

In a joint statement, they expressed solidarity with the Kashmiri people and journalists. Unrest should not be an excuse to restrict journalists from reporting, they said adding suspension of publications was a blow to media rights.


The Hindu : News / International : Lift ban on media in Kashmir: SAMC


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## Jackdaws

civfanatic said:


> Jhoot .....I have seen hundreds of matchs where Pakistan played against other countries India always suppports other countries .



Even I recollect supporting Pakistan in the 1992 finals - I would rather see an Asian team win then. In our text-books Pakistan was never vilified but England was. Given the media and Pakistani antics after 1992 - even if Satan XI is playing against Pakistan, most people would support Satan XI


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## Pk_Thunder

*In the throes of violence*
By Kuldip Nayar 
Friday, 17 Sep, 2010


I recently interacted with some Kashmiri young men in Delhi. There was no doubting their indignation and exasperation. The killings in the valley, almost 90 since June, were very much on my mind and I wanted to know what could be done. 

&#8220;Why don&#8217;t you leave us?&#8221; one said. Another was more specific. &#8220;We want azadi.&#8221; What is the population of the valley? &#8220;Please include Muslim areas in Jammu and Ladakh.&#8221; This would come to about one crore or a little more. They said: &#8220;It is not a question of numbers but one of feelings. We just do not want to be part of India.&#8221; Yet another said, &#8220;We do not want to be part of Pakistan either.&#8221; 

I vainly argued how a country with one crore population could sustain itself without any help from either India or Pakistan. &#8220;There is the entire Muslim world to help us,&#8221; they said. 

I told them that this bothered me and that bringing religion into their protests showed that they wanted to establish another Muslim state on India&#8217;s border.

What would be the repercussions in India which was trying to stay above the waters of communalism and remain secular? Their reply: &#8220;We want azadi.&#8221; 

I have not visited Kashmir for more than six months. Yet I have kept myself quite up to date by watching on television several incidents of stone-pelting, burning of government buildings and firing by security forces. (The Indian media has been covering the events in detail.) 

It looks as if the whole valley has come on to the streets, the angry young men leading the mob. Maybe it is a particular group of people which is instigating them but whatever its number it is a determined lot. And it would be foolhardy not to take into account their anguish, particularly of those who have lost their dear ones in the firing. 

New Delhi and Kashmir&#8217;s chief minister Omar Abdullah believe that anger could be assuaged if the Armed Forces Special Power Act (AFSPA), which gives extraordinary powers to the military in a disturbed area, is amended suitably or abolished.

The problem has been politicised and New Delhi has known it all along. That it should have been sorted out by this time goes without saying. The more a solution is delayed the more knotty the problem will become. 

Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh&#8217;s remark that there was need to address issues of trust deficit and government performance cannot remedy the situation.

By shifting the responsibility of its follies to the ruling National Conference, which with all its limitations has stood by New Delhi from day one, New Delhi is only proving that it has committed one mistake after another, without realising that it would have to pay for its lapses some day. 

Each time an economic or employment package is considered a panacea for all troubles. The challenge from the days of Sheikh Abdullah is how New Delhi gives Srinagar a sense of identity without letting Kashmir translate that status into independence? 

That there is no alternative to talks goes without saying. But the talks with the type of fundamentalists who are in the forefront will be difficult to conduct because they are the ones who incite people in the name of religion. They have pushed Kashmirayat, a pluralistic concept, to the back burner and brought fundamentalism to the fore. 

Yet New Delhi has to separate these elements from those who want to rule democratically and in a pluralistic way. But this does not mean that India has all the time to sort out the fundamentalists. Ultimately, it depends on what New Delhi is willing to offer in terms of political power. 

The Bharatiya Janata Party is the biggest impediment. It has politicised the issue and refurbished parochialism. At the back of its mind is the Hindutva philosophy which, it believes, cannot cope with a Muslim-majority territory. 

Already Narendra Modi of the Gujarat carnage notoriety has started attacking New Delhi for not being tough on Kashmir. The world knows what his toughness means.

He is also preparing the Hindus for the verdict on the Babri Masjid-Ram Janmabhoomi dispute scheduled to be announced on Sept 24. Both communities are on the edge. 

Some argue that the panacea is to concede the right of self-determination. Today&#8217;s world which is a witness to economic unions and common markets does not recognise any group of people or area which raises the standard of separation.

No state can accede to this principle because it gives sanction to centrifugal forces and fissiparous tendencies. Were the principle of self-determination to be applied in Southeast Asia, many states in the region would face the prospect of disintegration. 

New Delhi&#8217;s mistake is that it has left the Kashmir problem unattended to for such a long period. It proves the charge that many elements have come to develop a vested interest in the status quo.

Manmohan Singh is quite right when he says that he is willing to talk to any party or group so long as it does not project or support violence. However, the hard-liners have spelled out certain demands. Talks have to be held without prior conditions. 

Once New Delhi and Srinagar have come to terms, they should talk to Islamabad. Even otherwise, all three can sit across the table. The participation of Pakistan is necessary because all agreements, beginning from the one at Tashkent to that at Shimla, mention Pakistan as one of the important parties.

*Moreover, not long ago, India and Pakistan had almost clinched the issue if former Indian prime minister Atal Behari Vajpayee and former Pakistan foreign minister Khursheed Kasuri are to be believed.*


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## Omar1984

For the second time this week, Pakistan on Friday called upon India to exercise restraint in Indian occupied Kashmir (IoK) and urged the international community to take steps for safeguarding the human rights of Kashmiris. It also sought early and full resumption of the dialogue process with India; adding that Pakistan wants a constructive, sustained and result-oriented dialogue on all issues including the Jammu & Kashmir (J&K) dispute. 

The statement issued by the Foreign Office takes serious note of the deteriorating situation in Kashmir. 

The Kashmiris are unanimous in their demand for self-determination. This sentiment and its firm determination is being reflected in the peaceful protests of the youth, women and all segments of civil society. 

Condemning the brutality of the security forces, Pakistan said the killing of innocent Kashmiris, continued arrests and detention of Kashmiri leaders was unacceptable. 

The statement said Pakistan was committed to finding a fair and peaceful resolution of the issue of Jammu & Kashmir in accordance with the relevant United Nations resolutions and wishes and aspirations of the Kashmiri people. 

This is the second time this week that Pakistan has issued an official statement on the situation in Kashmir. The last statement was issued on Tuesday, a day after 15 people were killed. 


The Hindu : News / International : Pak urges international community to safeguard human rights in Kashmir


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## bandit

Omar1984 said:


> For the second time this week, Pakistan on Friday called upon India to exercise restraint in Indian occupied Kashmir (IoK) and urged the international community to take steps for safeguarding the human rights of Kashmiris. It also sought early and full resumption of the dialogue process with India; adding that Pakistan wants a constructive, sustained and result-oriented dialogue on all issues including the Jammu & Kashmir (J&K) dispute.
> 
> The statement issued by the Foreign Office takes serious note of the deteriorating situation in Kashmir.



The FO might as well spit out the truth that Pakistan wants Kashmir for itself, its pretty much clear from the mindset of its millitary which unequivocally, and delusionally, states Kashmir is rightfully theirs.



> The Kashmiris are unanimous in their demand for* self-determination*. This sentiment and its firm determination is being reflected in the peaceful protests of the youth, women and all segments of civil society.



Self-determination; right. Only upto the extent that Kashmir joins Pakistan, that is the official Pakisatn stance...isn't it.



> *This is the second time *this week that Pakistan has issued an official statement on the situation in Kashmir. The last statement was issued on Tuesday, a day after 15 people were killed.
> 
> 
> The Hindu : News / International : Pak urges international community to safeguard human rights in Kashmir



Please go ahead and shout it out a couple of hundred times more, maybe then somebody will notice what Pakistan has to say in the international fora.


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## Nihat

Omar1984 said:


> Kashmir belongs to the *KASHMIRIS* thats where they live in, their ancestors lived in, and where their roots began. Kashmir doesnt belong to any gujrati, rajasthani, tamil, bahari, and the rest of you dravadian bharatis who stick out like buffaloes when standing next to a Kashmiri.



To you and your kind

Kashmiri = Sunni Muslims.

You fail to see the secular past of the valley. What is has become today is another Pakistan with religious intolerance and extremist tendencies.


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## Tayyab1796

something similar must be practised in Indian occupied Kashmir.


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## Skeptic

Tayyab1796 said:


> something similar must be practised in Indian occupied Kashmir.



India openly declares Kashmir as integral part of India. It is only Pakistanis that seem to promote / support the idea of independent Kashmir. And it is claimed that Pakistan officially supports Independent Kashmir.

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## Nagraj

Tayyab1796 said:


> something similar must be practised in Indian occupied Kashmir.


Aisa kuch bhi nahi hai mere dost!!!


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## bandit

Omar1984 said:


> Kashmir belongs to the *KASHMIRIS* thats where they live in, their ancestors lived in, and where their roots began. Kashmir doesnt belong to any gujrati, rajasthani, tamil, bahari, and the rest of you.



Great work buddy, you finally managed to realize Kashmir belonged to the Kashmiris. Now do us all a favor and ask your govt and army to declare that too, since they dont support your POV. None of them supports Kashmir independence rather they want Kashmir itself. 

When and if you do that, then come and tell us what to do.


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## EjazR

*Mukherjee, Chidambaram part of all-party delegation to Kashmir - The Economic Times*

NEW DELHI: Congress today decided to send senior ministers Pranab Mukherjee and P Chidambaram as part of an all-party delegation to Jammu and Kashmir next week, apparently to impart greater stature to the visit.

The decision was taken at a meeting held by Congress chief Sonia Gandhi with Mukherjee, Chidambaram and other senior leaders like A K Antony, Ghulam Nabi Azad, Prithviraj Chavan and Saifuddin Soz, party sources said.

The meeting took place a day after the party top brass including Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Gandhi reviewed at the meeting of the Congress core group the situation in the state witnessing unrest for the last three months.

The delegation will visit the state on Monday. The decision to send the delegation was taken at an all-party meeting convened by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to discuss the situation in Jammu and Kashmir.

Sources said the delegation will be in the state for three days during which it will meet leaders of political parties and various other sections of society. The delegation will gather various shades of opinion on the current situation in the state and ways to deal with it.

"The feedback received from the all-party delegation would form an important input into the Government's evolving response on various issues relating to Jammu and Kashmir," a statement issued after the all-party meeting said.

--------------------------

Lets hope and pray that this actually results in some forward movement instead of acting in a state of paralysis the way GoI has been acting for the past few months.


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## Ganguly

Mukherjee is a good choice. He is a seasoned campaigner. Delegates should also have a meeting with Geelani and understand what exactly he wants (apart from Azaadi). They should also convey clearly the message that autonomy is not an option. If autonomy is granted, some small selfish group from some Indian state may ask for the same.


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## EjazR

*Hurriyat drops plans for September 21 protest march*

Srinagar: The Syed Ali Shah Geelani-led hardline Hurriyat Conference has dropped plans to stage protest marches to army camps on September 21.

Ayaz Akbar, the spokesperson for Hurriyat (Geelani) told NDTV, "There will be no protest outside army camps. We will send a petition to the army through the internet, asking them to withdraw from Kashmir."

On Thursday, the Army has appealed to the people of Jammu and Kashmir to maintain calm and avoid confronting army garrisons at the instance of Hurriyat leaders.

In its public appeal, the Army said that it has always been a "People's Army," but that the Hurriyat is trying to create a wedge between the army and the people. It appealed to Kashmiris to avoid falling into the "trap" of Hurriyat leaders.

Hardline Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani had earlier announced a new protest calendar that included a plan to protest outside army camps on September 21.
---------------------------
A positive and welcome step from Hurriyat (G). Hopefully they will continue to appeal for non-violence including not burning buildings which afterall are payed by Kashmir taxes and not pelting stones. And security forces should reciprocate by not using lethal force and allowing space for peaceful protests

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## Dash

very good step indeed......First success after all party meeting


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## Soft

EjazR said:


> A positive and welcome step from Hurriyat (G). Hopefully they will continue to appeal for non-violence including not burning buildings which afterall are payed by Kashmir taxes and not pelting stones. And security forces should reciprocate by not using lethal force and allowing space for peaceful protests



Really a good step ...


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## Ganguly

Excellent. First Step towards restoration of peace. There will be some good news after all party delegation visit to Kasmir on Monday. Normalcy will gradually return to Kashmir.


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## mattoo

Dear Pakistani friends,

I'm a Kashmiri Pandit myself. Hindu and Kashmiri, roots in Baramulla. My father and my uncles all had to leave the valley and live in Pune because of the constant harassment and threats from militants and Hurriyat types. We still own land there and my ancestral house is still there.

If you want Kashmir to be part of Pakistan, then you will get people like me along with it. Give me some reasons -your sales pitch - as to why I should support Kashmir's accession to Pakistan. No airy fairy stuff. Real direct reasons as to how my life will be better as a Pakistani. What can you give me as a Kashmiri in terms of life, safety, opportunities etc.? 

You have my attention. I am ready to be convinced. Go on.


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## SnIPeR Xr

DesiGuy said:


> * Anti-India rally held in Kashmir*
> 
> 
> Don't worry. it will be put down soon.



First show one flag of that country which you are supporting.
Other wise in your every post I have to reply you with your post in which you admitted that you are a Indian.
I can understand what Impression you are trying to give by showing these flags.

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## justanobserver

bump bump

Why is this thread getting absolutely zero attention ?


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## karan.1970

Are you surprised that there are no comments? Attention .. Yes, comments No because Pakistan has at no instance propogated this option.

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## justanobserver

^^
Even I didn't know about this. The sheer brilliance, calling it 'Azad Kashmir'.

Just brilliant !


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## deckingraj

Though you have used some derogatory words against the most respected institution of my motherland yet i will behave sane and will not reciprocate, so ignoring all the bull sh1t let me reply with maturity....



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> please elaborate.....even human rights groups in hindustan are rallying against the occupational forces (the sissies) demanding an end to their iron fist tactics against Kashmiris


Sure...May i ask if there is anything that human right activists saying about the Iron Hand that PA is using against TTP and causing collateral in your own backyard??? Also what about drone attacks that many in this forum say has the blessings of PA??? 

Yes the special power act given to Army is causing collateral and thus acting counter-productive to some extent but when i look at our neighborhood and the role of Armies(read PA, Sri Lanka) i can easily say IA is doing a great job...Having said it i strongly condemn the human riots violations and would like to have a mid-way i.e. Army should have some special powers, however there should be more checks and balances to help curb the human riots violations...



> I would warn you not to make the mistake of thinking Pakistanis (govt. or civilians) view the protestors as terrorists


Well i am not surprised, however saying all protestors are terrorist would be a lie since there are people with genuine grievances....



> the issue here is more than just protestors exercising a democratic right; the issue is the more macro one --> india fails to adhere to the Kashmiri peoples right to self determination. It's a very artificial arrangement that can only be enforced using guns, teargas, laathi and rubber bullets.


I will let this one go...On another thread i have explained many times why sentiments of people in valley should not be looked at solo....If you are talking about J&K then you got to respect the sentiments of other parts as well(Jammu and Ladakh)....We should not be just opportunist if we are genuinely interested in solving the issue...If you are just taking shots at GOI then be my guest!!!




> the more Kashmiris the security forces and police (sissies) kill in cold blood, the more people will mobilize and engage in protest and civil disobedience


I would request you to increase your knowledge a bit on this subject....False propaganda has caused lot of issues already so the minimum we can do is not to be part of it.....No one is being killed in cold-blood...There is curfew and when crowds get unruly to this level you will have to use lethal means to get control of the situation...This is a phenomenon used across the world inclusing Pakistan....and we all know how shoot at sight order were issued in our neighbourhood on various occassions....So let's not spread false allegations which can be debunked by simple logic that can be applied by a 5 year old....




> the youth are the future generation. They arent robots. They deplore hindustany occupation and are openly expressing their resentment.


You are right...however what you are conveniently ignoring for obvious reasons is that there are many youths with exactly opposite sentiments....That is where dialogue is important....GOI is working on it however rioters have to understand they have to shed violance....Protestors have already fulfilled their agenda i.e. seek attention and force GOI to come to talking table....There is no need to carry on with it if they want to have asolution in peaceful manner...



> what more can you do than what you are already doing? The sissies are already using live ammunition into large crowds.


This explains your level of understanding about the issue...so no comments...



> SWAT is not disputed territory. The conflict was over masses (and Armed Forces) eradicating miscreants who had captured the valley and tried to impose their will. The problem is largely solved, and Swat is back to normalcy.



Nice  .....Swat is back to normalcy is a good information, i hope it's true....However disputed or not disputed the fact is there will be collateral whenever Iron hand is used....That is why Pak tried to negotiate and had a peace deal in the first place...In other words you also tried to talk to so called "miscreants" to avoid Iron hand....When they did not listen you bombed their A$$ apart....Now we are dealing with our "miscreants" in the best way we can because we know there are genuine concerns also...That is why People of Kashmir have to shed violence and come to Talking table....




> Kashmir is a disputed territory. There is no foreign meddling in ioK --as many residents there have proclaimed. Purely a local, Kashmiri phenomenon.


Hahahah....why i am not surprised at this.....




> the Kashmiri locals are demanding an end to hindustany occupationto them, the occupational forces (the sissies) are like the local taleban......using the AFSPA they can even enter peoples' homes without search warrant, they can detain youth, in fact they even are intimidating journalists and facebook users....


And PA is seeking for Search warrants when operating against TTP....PAF takes permission from Judiciary before trasforimg houses to ghost place....Right??? Whenever there is insurgency there will be collateral......No one can help it...




> very democratic behaviour


It is democracy that is why separatists are still able to spit out their venom in valley....Anyways since you have never seen light of democracy for long i can understand your lack of knowledge about it....




> it'll come back to bite you; the more you kill, the more enemies you will (are) creating


Thanks for the suggestion...Perhaps you should explain this to your Army as well because it seems they have killed many people in their own backyard and they are already biting you....


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## Nagraj

why blame ordinary pakistanis!!!
hypocracy is official pakistani policy!!


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## Icarus

AT THE MOMENT AJ&K is an autonomous region, thus the oath carries the line highlighted above. Should IHK be declared independent today, the line highlighted above shall be removed.
That is why it is called an Interim constitution..................


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## Icarus

Nagraj said:


> why blame ordinary pakistanis!!!
> hypocracy is official pakistani policy!!



I would appreciate details about this "Claim" of yours...............


ADDITION:
That is self-criticism based on a single person's personal view. I would like a report based on facts not personal beliefs. Thank You...............


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## somebozo

Skeptic said:


> India openly declares Kashmir as integral part of India. It is only Pakistanis that seem to promote / support the idea of independent Kashmir. And it is claimed that Pakistan officially supports Independent Kashmir.



Kashmir was neither part of imperial india nor british india so since when it has become integral part of india?? And the above mentioned oath is only counter balance to an oath sworn by IOK CM. In reality, Azad Kashmir as of now is administerd by Pakistan hence it has every right to enforce the laws in there as much as Indians are doing it in IOK.


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## deckingraj

somebozo said:


> Kashmir was neither part of imperial india nor british india so since when it has become integral part of india?? And the above mentioned oath is only counter balance to an oath sworn by IOK CM. In reality, Azad Kashmir as of now is administerd by Pakistan hence it has every right to enforce the laws in there as much as Indians are doing it in IOK.


which is true and in fact the reality..the issue is why Moral high grounds???

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## Icarus

You should have read the whole thing, you might have read something that you couldn't take out of context: 

WHEREAS the future status of the State of Jammu and Kashmir is yet to be determined in accordance with the freely expressed will of the people of the State through the democratic method of free and fair plebiscite under the auspices of the United Nations as envisaged in the UNCIP Resolutions adopted from time to time;

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## Frankenstein

It seems like, right now you Guys have taken oath to destroy the reputation of Defense.pk by bringing Kashmir to the discussion and start pouring your bullsh1t into it, Just like an idiot bring you down to his level and beat you with his experience

*So why dont you drop it, or take it some where else, Baharat Rakshak seems to be a good place*


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## Areesh

IBRIS said:


> Perhaps this clown leader of H-u-M should attempt to cross the LOC himself first before advicing the locals to cross into Indian Kashmir.
> 
> GOD willing, I wish he would and see the carnage his followers had committed. This butcher should grow some ballsack, instead of trying to convince locals to do ISI's dirty work for them.



Well he will cross LOC if your clowns in govt uniform don't stop killing civilians. So it is better you stop your clowns or else other clowns would go to kick your as*.


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## deckingraj

Areesh said:


> Well he will cross LOC if your clowns in govt uniform don't stop killing civilians. So it is better you stop your clowns or else other clowns would go to kick your as*.



If that's the case the we should perhaps keep on doing what we are because we would like to have this clown visit this side of the border...There is lot that needs to be settled with this pig....Since you seems to be official spokesperson and know what this man will do would you mind conveying the message???

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## Areesh

deckingraj said:


> If that's the case the we should perhaps keep on doing what we are because we would like to have this clown visit this side of the border...There is lot that needs to be settled with this pig....Since you seems to be official spokesperson and know what this man will do would you mind conveying the message???



Well you are so anxious to bring him and other like him in IOK it looks like you want many clowns in uniform to join those 4000 clowns who already rot in hell. You aren't sincere with your own clowns too. 

Well anyways you continue with the same attitude. You might find many like him kicking your as*.


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## Areesh

Dash said:


> very good step indeed......First success after all party meeting



Well it has nothing to do with that pathetic APC. They just wanted to refrain from the killings of civilians on the hands of bharatis.

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## deckingraj

Areesh said:


> Well you are so anxious to bring him and other like him in IOK it looks like you want many clowns in uniform to join those 4000 clowns who already rot in hell. You aren't sincere with your own clowns too.


Well they are my heroes who are kicking A$$ of Pigs....B/W watch your mouth as you are talking about our Army who have proven their potential many times viz-a-viz PA...I could have responded in the same fashion but then i am mature and not a 15 year old kid running on adrenaline with no brain....



> Well anyways you continue with the same attitude. You might find many like him kicking your as*.


Attitude is here to stay...As far as kicking A$$ is concerned then why not become a part of many like him than merely giving empty warnings having no face value and far from reality??? Do us a favor and talk about something concrete, if at all...


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## parasite

Lets hope Peace prevails in the valley.......these people really deserve it....


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## deckingraj

Areesh said:


> Well it has nothing to do with that pathetic APC. They just wanted to refrain from the killings of civilians on the hands of bharatis.



Do you always troll??? Where were this thought when 80 odd kashmiri's died on the hands of so called bharati's?? Spare us from your bull sh1t on atleast one thread, will ya???

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## Areesh

deckingraj said:


> Well they are my heroes who are kicking A$$ of Pigs....B/W watch your mouth as you are talking about our Army who have proven their potential many times viz-a-viz PA...I could have responded in the same fashion but then i am mature and not a 15 year old kid running on adrenaline with no brain....



I don't care whether what you consider them. Nobody on this forum. It was you and your other bharati brothers who started the foul language and giving names like clowns pigs etc. I just changed the direction of this foul language to the real clowns. On the other hand talking about the potential of your army. Yes they are good in backstabbing winning wars out of civil wars. With bollywood movies and a load of fabrications they do have a lot of potential. Those "clowns" of HUM have also proved their potential by giving a one way ticket to 4000 of your heroes to some place other than this world. A place where both of us don't want to go. 




> Attitude is here to stay...As far as kicking A$$ is concerned then why not become a part of many like him than merely giving empty warnings having no face value and far from reality??? Do us a favor and talk about something concrete, if at all...



If attitude is here to stay than I can't confirm the numbers for those 4000. God knows how many would join them. And instead of giving me adivces to join them, why don't you join your "heroes" and fight against those"clowns. 

Or you also know the reality of your heroes too.


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## Areesh

deckingraj said:


> Do you always troll???



No I always respond to a bharati troll.



> Where were this thought when 80 odd kashmiri's died on the hands of so called bharati's??



They were their protesting against those killings and for the independence of their land from the hands of foreigners.



> Spare us from your bull sh1t on atleast one thread, will ya???



And can't you spare your bullsh1t and throw it on someone who deserve it like puppet CM of IOK.


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## deckingraj

Areesh said:


> I don't care whether what you consider them. Nobody on this forum. It was you and your other bharati brothers who started the foul language and giving names like clowns pigs etc.


What you are doing is only going to flame war...understand the way you are passionate about your Army the same way i and other's would be....Anyways as said you can't convince a 15 year old kid high on adrealine rush with no brains....Now upto you, what you want to be, a kid or a mture person....




> I just changed the direction of this foul language to the real clowns.


Ignoring one last time....




> On the other hand talking about the potential of your army. Yes they are good in backstabbing winning wars out of civil wars. With bollywood movies and a load of fabrications they do have a lot of potential. Those "clowns" of HUM have also proved their potential by giving a one way ticket to 4000 of your heroes to some place other than this world. A place where both of us don't want to go.


This just shows the level of your dusgusted mind....No wonder i have wasted my time here....Go on and keep living in your la la land...



> If attitude is here to stay than I can't confirm the numbers for those 4000. God knows how many would join them. And instead of giving me adivces to join them, why don't you join your "heroes" and fight against those"clowns.



I could have easily provided you the figure of Army personels lost by PA in their current operation and perhaps more to join them...but since i am not brain dead like you, i know dead should be given their due respect...I have been taught that Armed forces of any nation even if it belongs to an adversary should be respected since they are real heroes....However people like you just give bad names to the entire country....

Regarding me joining Army i wish i was as capable as these men are....I would love to give my services as and when required, however i am afraid i don't have that stature/capabilities required to join the 4 largest Army in the world...



> Or you also know the reality of your heroes too.


I very well know the reality of my heroes and not only me but the entire world....Some kid just need a wake up call....

B/W i am sure you will not be surprised to know that we are done talking here.....


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## Abu Zolfiqar

PakiiZeeshan said:


> How can indians deny that flag being held by proud Kashmiris is the Pakistani flag? this is proof of how some pathetic indians behave when it comes to the truth. too bad we Pakistanis, have to deal with this nonsense everyday on everything about Pakistan on the internet



did you see the Kashmiris hanging our Nation's flag at the clock tower @ Lal Chowk 

in fact, I made it my desktop wall paper

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## Areesh

deckingraj said:


> What you are doing is only going to flame war...



As i said. I just changed the direction of the foul language used by some bharatis. It wasn't me who started doing it.



> Anyways as said you can't convince a 15 year old kid high on adrealine rush with no brains



And I also can't convince a BR fan boy suffering with HUM paranoia.



> Ignoring one last time....



Who cares.



> This just shows the level of your dusgusted mind....No wonder i have wasted my time here....Go on and keep living in your la la land...



You can also live with your delusional mini bharati world. 



> I could have easily provided you the figure of Army personels lost by PA in their current operation and perhaps more to join them...but since i am not brain dead like you, i know dead should be given their due respect...I have been taught that Armed forces of any nation even if it belongs to an adversary should be respected since they are real heroes....However people like you just give bad names to the entire country....



Their is a difference between FATA and IOK. Your analogy would be valid if I would have said something about those CRPF soldiers who regularly got killed by Maoists.



> Regarding me joining Army i wish i was as capable as these men are....I would love to give my services as and when required, however i am afraid i don't have that stature/capabilities required to join the 4 largest Army in the world...



So you don't have talent to do fake encounters. Got it.



> Some kid just need a wake up call....



I was doing the same. Giving a wakeup call.



> B/W i am sure you will not be surprised to know that we are done talking here.....



As I said. Who cares.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

better to get bitten than get chomped and swallowed......the difference between occupied Kashmir & FATA/insurgency hit regions is that in the former -- there is a popular uprising against an entity seen as occupiers; invaders.

such is not the case in the latter; where most of the people support Army action against militants posing a threat to Pakistan Nation and her peoples. 

Most interestingly, govt and army asked the people of Swat and surrounding areas to leave and seek safer grounds until the operations end. Few people put up a resistance; now they are back home and many people of those areas are either directly or indirectly cooperating with Armed Forces. A success story we hope to repeat in other problem areas.

you cannot compare an angry stone-thrower to a suicide bomber hell bent on destruction and carnage


i do sincerely hope you understood


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## Hulk

Areesh said:


> Well he will cross LOC if your clowns in govt uniform don't stop killing civilians. So it is better you stop your clowns or else other clowns would go to kick your as*.



He will never do that, they can only brainwash others kids and sacrifice them. Look at geelani his kid is studying outside and he is asking others to boycott school. These people fall under same category.


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## Areesh

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> did you see the Kashmiris hanging our Nation's flag at the clock tower @ Lal Chowk
> 
> in fact, I made it my desktop wall paper



And I have it as my forum avatar.

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## Hulk

This same guy was contesting election in India till 80's when lost he found Imdian occupation is illegal.


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> I don't care whether what you consider them. Nobody on this forum. It was you and your other bharati brothers who started the foul language and giving names like clowns pigs etc. I just changed the direction of this foul language to the real clowns. On the other hand talking about the potential of your army. Yes they are good in backstabbing winning wars out of civil wars. With bollywood movies and a load of fabrications they do have a lot of potential. Those "clowns" of HUM have also proved their potential by giving a one way ticket to 4000 of your heroes to some place other than this world. A place where both of us don't want to go.
> 
> 
> 
> If attitude is here to stay than I can't confirm the numbers for those 4000. God knows how many would join them. And instead of giving me adivces to join them, why don't you join your "heroes" and fight against those"clowns.
> 
> Or you also know the reality of your heroes too.



You guys can carry on the discussion, but just so that we dont get misled on numbers, attaching for your reference

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## deckingraj

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> better to get bitten than get chomped and swallowed......the difference between occupied Kashmir & FATA/insurgency hit regions is that in the former -- there is a popular uprising against an entity seen as occupiers; invaders.
> 
> such is not the case in the latter; where most of the people support Army action against militants posing a threat to Pakistan Nation and her peoples.
> 
> 
> you cannot compare an angry stone-thrower to a suicide bomber hell bent on destruction and carnage
> 
> 
> *i do sincerely hope you understood*



Sir, i do and i very well do...I am not sensitive about this issue...I can openly says that GOI has committed some grave mistakes in Kashmir and there is no doubt about it....However what you and many other's are constantly ignoring is mistaking the protests of people in valley and labeling it as demand of majority because it is not...

As far as analogy is concerned then all i am saying is that disputed or non-disputes territory wherever we will have problems of insurgency there will be collateral and nothing can be done about it....IA as compared to the means adopted by Armies in our neighbourhood is doing a good job...Just to give you example we have disputed territory with China as well however borders are very much peaceful...So collateral is not because of disputed land but because of insurgency....I sincerely hope you can see the distinction....


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## deckingraj

karan.1970 said:


> You guys can carry on the discussion, but just so that we dont get misled on numbers, attaching for your reference



Don't waste your time Karan....This is all i can say....


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## DGMO

Areesh said:


> Well he will cross LOC


It's all bluster, SS will never carry out such a suicidal act. 

He'll need PA cover, and that won't be forthcoming as it'll draw us into 'facilitation of cross-border terrorism' or a similar charge from India.

Of course, he's not Rambo that he can go on an individual heroic mission no matter how romantic it sounds. He'll need well armed companions who also won't be able to cross over without our cover.

Then we need to look at SS's age and ability to carry out guerrilla operations. He could do so back in the day, but is more of a figurehead now. His fighting days are long gone, and he needs to be use the pen as a weapon if he wants to make a difference.

Armed operations he has tried, and results have been negligible. Let India and the separatists deal with the current crisis and see where we get to. 

As poor as GoI have been in responding, some moves and meetings are scheduled. Geelani has stepped back from his protest sit-in at Army barracks, so let's wait until the all-party meet and what positivity (if any) that brings.

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## deckingraj

Areesh said:


> No I always respond to a bharati troll.


Keep it up...then....



> They were their protesting against those killings and for the independence of their land from the hands of foreigners.


Well are you interested in some logical talk??? If yes then reply likely....Let me clarify what i said....

You are saying hurriyat abandoned protest only because of fear of more civilians getting killed, right??? if yes then my question were they sleeping earlier??? why suddenly they have fear about civilians killing because this is going on from past 2-3 months, no???



> And can't you spare your bullsh1t and throw it on someone who deserve it like puppet CM of IOK.


You seems to be ignorant about Kashmir politics...This CM is right now busy in discussing with new delhi about the mandate of all party delegation going in Kashmir on monday....

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## Abu Zolfiqar

all wars have casualties; it's a sad reality. That is one reason (of many) for opting for the F-16s with the sniper targetting pods. That is why we needed retro-fit & MLU for some of the aging Cobras.

despite our superiority over the (non-uniformed, easily blending in) militants; the way we win the war is ON THE GROUND; and most importantly ---

NOT just MILITARILY....


we are at war with militants....are you at war with the occupied Kashmiris? Perhaps you are, maybe you can shed more light on it.


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## deckingraj

DGMO said:


> It's all bluster, SS will never carry out such a suicidal act.
> 
> He'll need PA cover, and that won't be forthcoming as it'll draw us into 'facilitation of cross-border terrorism' or a similar charge from India.
> 
> Of course, he's not Rambo that he can go on an individual heroic mission no matter how romantic it sounds. He'll need well armed companions who also won't be able to cross over without our cover.
> 
> Then we need to look at SS's age and ability to carry out guerrilla operations. He could do so back in the day, but is more of a figurehead now. His fighting days are long gone, and he needs to be use the pen as a weapon if he wants to make a difference.
> 
> Armed operations he has tried, and results have been negligible. Let India and the separatists deal with the current crisis and see where we get to.
> 
> *As poor as GoI have been in responding*, some moves and meetings are scheduled. Geelani has stepped back from his protest sit-in at Army barracks, so let's wait until the all-party meet and what positivity (if any) that brings.



I sometimes wish we can have more mature people like you who don't hesitate to talk sense then just puking national jingoism....I am in total agreement with you bolded part and this is the biggest irritant that i have for GOI when it comes to Kashmir.....Our policy makers have a tendency to mistake temporary lull in kashmir as peace for good...


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## karan.1970

India firmly rejects gratuitous Pak statements on Jammu & Kashmir 

Read more at: India snubs Pakistan over J&K remarks

New Delhi: In response to a question regarding the statement on Jammu & Kashmir by the Foreign Minister of Pakistan, the Official Spokesperson said,

"India firmly rejects gratuitous statements issued by Pakistan on Jammu & Kashmir, which amount to interference in the internal affairs of India. Pakistan should take credible and effective action against infiltration from across the Line of Control and dismantle the terror infrastructure that exists in the territory under its control. This would be an important contribution towards safeguarding the welfare of the people of J&K, who suffer the consequences of terrorism fomented from across the Line of Control and the International Border. As a vibrant democracy, India has sufficient mechanisms and constitutional safeguards to address issues raised by its citizens in any part of the country.

India reiterates its commitment to resolving issues of mutual concern with Pakistan through dialogue and peaceful means. However, Pakistan must fulfill its solemn commitment of not allowing territory under its control to be used for terrorism directed against India in any manner. This would be in the interest of Pakistan and of the international community."

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## Abu Zolfiqar

loving it


it does look so good there. The same people celebrated August 14 a little over a month ago

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## Je suis de retour

Thats great, i am really overwhelmed by generosity of paksitan, they opted for human rights of people across the border before their own.


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## Areesh

DGMO said:


> It's all bluster, SS will never carry out such a suicidal act.
> 
> He'll need PA cover, and that won't be forthcoming as it'll draw us into 'facilitation of cross-border terrorism' or a similar charge from India.
> 
> Of course, he's not Rambo that he can go on an individual heroic mission no matter how romantic it sounds. He'll need well armed companions who also won't be able to cross over without our cover.
> 
> Then we need to look at SS's age and ability to carry out guerrilla operations. He could do so back in the day, but is more of a figurehead now. His fighting days are long gone, and he needs to be use the pen as a weapon if he wants to make a difference.
> 
> Armed operations he has tried, and results have been negligible. Let India and the separatists deal with the current crisis and see where we get to.
> 
> As poor as GoI have been in responding, some moves and meetings are scheduled. Geelani has stepped back from his protest sit-in at Army barracks, so let's wait until the all-party meet and what positivity (if any) that brings.



Anything else you want to say.


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## mjnaushad

justanobserver said:


> bump bump
> 
> Why is this thread getting absolutely zero attention ?





Kakgeta said:


> You should have read the whole thing, you might have read something that you couldn't take out of context:
> 
> WHEREAS the future status of the State of Jammu and Kashmir is yet to be determined in accordance with the freely expressed will of the people of the State through the democratic method of free and fair plebiscite under the auspices of the United Nations as envisaged in the UNCIP Resolutions adopted from time to time;



bump bump

Why is this thread getting absolutely zero attention ?  AFter the above post of kakgeta

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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> You guys can carry on the discussion, but just so that we dont get misled on numbers, attaching for your reference



And you were providing the same chart on some other thread also. I think giving it once was enough for your self satisfaction.

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## DGMO

deckingraj said:


> I sometimes wish we can have more mature people like you who don't hesitate to talk sense then just puking national jingoism....I am in total agreement with you bolded part and this is the biggest irritant that i have for GOI when it comes to Kashmir.....Our policy makers have a tendency to mistake temporary lull in kashmir as peace for good...


Appreciate the positive words bro, don't worry, there are many like me, just hope more made a splash on this forum. Too many patriotic (or idiotic, whichever way you look at it!) people get clouded in their sentiments.

If you approach an angle as take take take, refusing to look at the situation from the opposing perspective, then how can one expect progress? My experience tells me that those Pakistani's that are living abroad, are more passionate about this issue than the common man back in Pakistan!

Yet you speak to these people like I do in the UK, and they know nothing about the dynamics of Kashmir, the different stakeholders, the views from India's perspective, who Syed Salahuddin is, who Geelani is, what article 370 is, what autonomy means, the history, our failings etc etc. It's constant 'Kashmir banega Pakistan'.

If you're going to be blinded by your patriotism, and blind hatred of India, then you need to be educated about this complex matter we have on our hands - and start to accept reality.

Reality is that we can find a solution, place our hatred behind us and prosper not in isolation, but together. Unfortunately, Pakistani's do allow their emotions to get the better of them, and that leads to poor decision making.

We care more about the Palestinians for example than the Arabs themselves. Why? It seems we needs a bogeyman to blame and to act as an outlet for our own frustrations, whether it's India or Israel. It never ceases to amaze me.

As patriotic as I am, and I love my country to bits, there is no reason why we as neighbours (whether it is in the sub-continent, or here in the UK) can't get along. If Bopanna and Qureshi are setting the benchmark, then we need to follow in that direction. Believe me, it can be done.

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## DGMO

Areesh said:


> Anything else you want to say.


Yes, just read my previous post. Might help you take a more rational stance when addressing the issue of Kashmir, and India in general. Well I hope so anyway.


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## deckingraj

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> all wars have casualties; it's a sad reality. That is one reason (of many) for opting for the F-16s with the sniper targetting pods. That is why we needed retro-fit & MLU for some of the aging Cobras.
> 
> despite our superiority over the (non-uniformed, easily blending in) militants; the way we win the war is ON THE GROUND; and most importantly ---
> 
> NOT just MILITARILY....


Cannot agree more on this...




> we are at war with militants....are you at war with the occupied Kashmiris? Perhaps you are, maybe you can shed more light on it.


You are right sir when you say you are at war with Millitants, however are you saying that we are not at war with Millitants??? Kashmir has insurgency and we are at war with that insurgency, now unfortunately the collateral trickels down to populace which makes the situation a time bomb....This is one problem that sooner or later(and i hope you don't) will be faced by you as well....Collateral in dealing with millitants will keep on rising and development will keep on evading popoulace...This will give more and more recruits to the millitants and sooner there will be a vicious circle ...

This is where GOI finds herself today....They need to arm their soldiers with some special powers so that they can deal with insurgents....However this special powers do get misused there by increasing the cost of collateral and making the situation worse then what it was...However removing those special powers will mean making your soldier less potent and thereby making the situation worse....so you see, it is very complicated and difficult situation to resolve....you don't want to do operation like Sri Lanka and neither you want make your soldiers less potent to deliver job effectively...no???

I would be stupid to say thay there Kashmiri's are not at revolt against GOI...There are many factions who are however i will be equally stupid to say that situation is not fabricated from across the border....Years of insurgency backed by GOP and years of neglect by GOI is taking its toll....However who is the sufferer apart from Kashmiri's themselves???


GOI needs to wake up and need to win the hearts of Kashmiri's or else GOI will keep counting the number of Officers we have lost and Kashmiri's their siblings......Just pathetic...


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## Areesh

DGMO said:


> Yes, just read my previous post. Might help you take a more rational stance when addressing the issue of Kashmir, and India in general. Well I hope so anyway.



No I don't want a rational stance based on flawed reality checks and irrational rational posts. I would go with my own research rather than depending on some non intellectual posing as intellectuals giving their so called reality checks. 

Thanks anyway.


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## DGMO

Areesh said:


> No I don't want a rational stance based on flawed reality checks and irrational rational posts. I would go with my own research rather than depending on some non intellectual posing as intellectuals giving their so called reality checks.
> 
> Thanks anyway.


Bit of a tongue twister from you, I'm not sure I quite follow, but interesting multiple use of 'reality' and 'rational'.

Well then continue to live in cloud cuckoo land, and let me know how much progress you make on this issue. Won't be much that's for sure.


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## TextMiner

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> loving it
> 
> 
> it does look so good there. The same people celebrated August 14 a little over a month ago


There was another part of the same country that got Independence on August 14, 1947 and had the same Flag ; Unfortunately now that country celebrates its Independence day on March 26 now, and has a Red Sun (metaphorically the Colour of its people's blood spilt) against a Dark Green Background.

I wonder what flag colour are these guys going to have when they celebrate their Indpependence day.


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## GUNNER

*SRINAGAR, India, Sept 17, 2010 (AFP)* - India deployed soldiers on some streets of protest-hit Kashmir on Friday to restore order, as three more people were shot dead by security forces during violent demonstrations.

Troops were spotted on a key road in the main city of Srinagar that leads to the high-security airport, an AFP reporter said, while residents also reported seeing soldiers in central Budgam and northern Baramulla villages.

The army was last mobilised to assist the police and paramilitary forces in July and the latest measure has angered separatists who resent any moves heightening the sense of occupation in the disputed Himalayan region.

"All repressive measures are being used to quell and crush the resistance movement and intimidate people for daring to raise their voice," Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, a senior separatist and leading cleric, told AFP.

The step was believed to be part of a new strategy drafted by police, paramilitary and army forces to restore order.

A total of 97 people have died since the protests erupted in June, according to an AFP tally, with 17 killed on Monday in the worst violence in the disputed Muslim-majority region in years.

Police said at least three people had been killed and 23 injured on Friday after security forces opened fire in six places as crowds defied a curfew to pelt troops with stones and set fire to government buildings and vehicles.

Police said protesters had injured at least 20 security force personnel in stone-throwing incidents instigated by separatists.

Pakistan accused India of "brutality" over its crackdown on demonstrators who have staged three months of protests clamouring for an end to New Delhi's rule in Kashmir, a territory claimed by both nuclear-armed neighbours.

Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi, who held tense talks with his Indian counterpart S.M. Krishna in July to try to build trust between the estranged neighbours, condemned India's actions.

"Pakistan strongly condemns the brutality and the blatant use of force by Indian security forces," Qureshi said.

"Gross and systematic abuse of human rights and Indian repression in Kashmir must end," he said, describing killings, arrests and detentions as "unacceptable".

Most clashes have seen masked Kashmiris, some barely teenagers, throw stones at the heavily armed security forces who have retaliated with tear gas, baton charges and live ammunition.

A strict curfew has been in place since Sunday in most parts of Kashmir, leading to complaints of "collective punishment" from locals who have been confined to their homes and are running low on food and medicine.

In Srinagar, thousands of residents chanting "Our nation, we will decide its future!" attended prayers for the cousin of separatist leader Yasin Malik who died on Thursday after being shot last month.

Across the region, Kashmiris are becoming increasingly vocal in their complaints about shortages as the curfew stretches into a sixth day.

All neighbourhoods in Srinagar have been sealed with barbed wire and iron gates as armed security forces with rifles and batons ensure no one crosses them or makes an attempt to defy the curfew.


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## Areesh

deckingraj said:


> You are saying hurriyat abandoned protest only because of fear of more civilians getting killed, right??? if yes then my question were they sleeping earlier??? why suddenly they have fear about civilians killing because this is going on from past 2-3 months, no???
> .



Well they always condemned violence and their are dozens of their statements where they asked people to refrain from violence. But on the other hand they also continued their struggle of their valley by the foreigners. So they always asked people of IOK to refrain from violence which you didn't read because of your stubbornness to continue your occupation of the land which never belong to you. 

Use google for those appeals. Thanks



> You seems to be ignorant about Kashmir politics...This CM is right now busy in discussing with new delhi about the mandate of all party delegation going in Kashmir on monday....



No I know about that delegation crap. That was the only decision out of that useless APC. And this delegation thing would be as useless as the APC in which it was decided.

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## civfanatic

> EID HELD up a harsh spotlight to the political landscape of the Valley last week, highlighting three months of protests, strikes and curfew in Kashmir. Even as lakhs, led by Hurriyat stalwart Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, prayed at the Eidgah grounds, a few thousands went to Hazratbal shrine where Hizbul Mujahideen chief Syed Salahuddin addressed them over telephone from Pakistan. They then clashed with police and CRPF forces and set on fire the police barracks inside the shrine. As stark as the sea of protesters was what these two locations  which hold great significance for mainstream Kashmiri polity  did not or could not accommodate. Until 1989, National Conference (NC) leader Farooq Abdullah would pray at Eidgah behind the Mirwaizs father. In many senses, this was their joint domain. And Hazratbal was the NC bastion from where party founder Sheikh Abdullah would address big gatherings. But, this Eid, Abdullahs grandson and Jammu & Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah was not be able to visit Eidgah or even pray at Hazratbal because of security concerns.
> 
> After prayers that morning, people marched to Lal Chowk, the business nerve centre of Srinagar. By noon, thousands had reached the clock tower, heart of Lal Chowk, after travelling in buses, cars, trucks, on bikes and on foot, shouting pro-freedom and anti-India slogans. It was under this very clock tower that Sheikh Abdullah of Kashmir recited to Nehru of India a Persian couplet declaring that the two nations had become one. It was here that Nehru promised, in turn, that there would be no forced marriage with Kashmir and reiterated its right to choose its future through a referendum.
> 
> For decades since that convivial time, the clock tower has remained a political symbol. During protests and rallies that swirled around this symbolic fulcrum, Kashmiris would unfurl resistance flags from atop the tower. In an utterly mechanical effort to stop this, the state reconstructed the towers exterior in such a manner that no one could climb it. This Eid, in an example of a determination too strong for brick, mortar and cement latticework, protesters broke in, climbed up and unfurled a cascade of flags on four sides: the JKLF flag, separatist Syed Ali Shah Geelanis Tehreek-e-Hurriyat party flag, the Hurriyat flag and a Pakistani flag. Finally, two boys broke the wooden ceiling to climb onto the roof to hoist a hitherto unseen flag: a green one with maroon, yellow, black and white stripes; the stone-pelters flag. Of the dozens of flags that sprouted that day from the tower or the hundreds that surrounded it, not one belonged to a mainstream party.
> 
> IN KREERI village, 40 km north of Srinagar, Haleema lies on an air mattress, biting her parched lip in pain. A police bullet, one of six that hit her, sits at her spinal cord. A 35-year-old divorcee with a 12-year-old daughter, Haleema will never walk again. She was shot when police opened fire on a gathering that was protesting the killing of a college student from Kreeri. Kreeri falls in Sangrama constituency, where more than 47 percent people voted in the 2008 Assembly poll for Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) leader Basharat Bukhari. Kreeri is Bukharis village and Haleemas family has known the Bukharis for decades; they all voted for Bukhari. After Haleema was shot on 31 July, they expected Bukhari to visit them, to reach out  with condolences, if nothing else. He never showed up. I will push him out of our house if he comes. We will not repeat our mistake of voting for him, says Haleemas sister-inlaw, Rafeeqa, tears of rage in her eyes. He was in the same school as my husband. He promised us development but today we dont care about development.
> 
> We dont want it, Rafeeqa says.
> 
> From Khrew to Kupwara, people said that their MLAs did not show up even to offer condolences, let alone act to bring any relief to those injured in the firings
> 
> As TEHELKA tracked similar stories of death and misery in the city, we found no traces of mainstream politicians. Not only are their symbols absent from flashpoints like the clock tower, the politicians have vanished from the lives of their constituents as well. In a bitter mix of resentment and rage, people complained that their representatives had worried more about roads, schools and water but had not come to visit them to share their grief. Some of the victims vowed that they would lynch the leaders if they dare to come.
> 
> This threat to lynch MLAs is echoed in Bandipore, 55 km north of Srinagar. We dont want jobs if we have to accept slavery, say locals. And had PDP MLA Nizamudin Bhat come there? We would have lynched him, they cry. Bhat, who says he was there during the first 10 days of protests, trying to reach out to the people, admits that he did stop coming  but only so as to not spark further protests and killings that often follow them.
> 
> PDP leader Mehbooba Mufti blames the rulers for this inability of her party to reach out to the people, saying that the governments actions have shrunk the space for mainstream leadership. It is impossible to go out and talk to the people, she says. What can we approach them with? What can we tell them? People are angry at the continued killings; we have no answer to give them. Mehbooba says the crisis exists because India wilfully fooled itself into believing the 2008 election was a referendum in its favour. Here, the dominant discourse is freedom; we have to address this aspiration to the maximum, she says.
> 
> Though it has 28 MLAs in the 87-member Assembly, the NC has shown a similar, conspicuous absence. From Khrew, where several people were killed in the protests, to Kupwara, where protests defied the presence of the Indian army, people said that their MLAs did not show up even to offer condolences, let alone act to bring any relief.
> 
> Kupwara, Handwara and Rajwar in North Kashmir are garrison towns where the army is perched atop house, shop and pavement. Go India, Go Back, screams graffiti scrawled on asphalt. TEHELKA spoke to two brothers who run a cell phone shop in Kupwara. The army closes the gate which leads to our village at 6 pm; we cant do anything about this. The protests were never as intense as they are now and they will continue. We will not accept this as our life, they say. They both bled in the recent protests; they had both voted in 2008. I would not have said this to you earlier but now I think we dont want to live with India. Indians think of us as subjects. Its humiliating, they say. People in Handwara say that the army rules their life; they expected their MLA, Mir Saifullah, to give them some respite but it didnt happen.
> 
> Even India does not treat Kashmiris as Indians, echoes Ali Mohammad Sagar, the NC MLA of Khanyar, in downtown Srinagar, while admitting he has had little contact with his constituency. Khanyar is Little Pakistan; if you go there, you will think it has already seceded. However, I have visited it four or five times, even though it is very difficult.
> 
> 
> Tough life Rafeeqa takes care of sister-in-law Haleema, who wont be able to walk again after taking six police bullets
> 
> UNLIKE THE traditional understanding of the Kashmir problem, the recent unrest has shaken two popular myths. Though the number of unemployed youth has risen to six lakh, the protesters are not drawn exclusively from them. Authorities believe that some protesters are educated and empowered youth. A 2008 survey conducted by the police after pro-azadi protests found that a political understanding of the conflict, a youth spent growing up in conflict, peer pressure and the social legitimacy of separatist sentiment were the main reasons people came out to protest. The other myth that lies in ruins is that any unrest in Kashmir is sponsored from across the border. The reason for the mass alienation among Kashmir is more political than economic or administrative. Though the PDP and the NC have come up with autonomy and selfrule proposals, they have failed to capture the imagination of the youth. For them, talks must include discussions on azadi; the framework of the Indian constitution is the scaffolding of slavery.
> 
> The party most closely aligned with the Constitution, the Congress, has emerged as an important force in state politics. With the PDP and NC at opposite ends, they are coalition kingmakers. The Congress MLA from Kokernaag, Peerzada Mohammad Sayed, calls the protesters miscreants and says that the past three months have seen a takeover by mobs. I meet my people in Kokernaag and no one protests there. It is miscreants from other places who do, he claims. Like most Kashmiris these days, holed up as they are in their homes the entire day, Sayed is dressed in his morning clothes at 5 pm, even as he talks to visitors at his heavilyguarded residence. Four days later, 300 protesters defied curfew to attack his house while he was inside.
> 
> MLA Abdul Rashid was once forced every day to jump up and down outside an army camp before dawn to prove he was carrying no bombs. He would be frisked, not by hand, but by having long poles poked into his body. Like thousands of people from Kupwara and Handwara, Rashid was made to work as a labourer for the army. The army forced me to work as a porter. I was also forced to walk ahead of patrol parties scanning roads for IEDs, says Rashid.
> 
> For the stone-pelting youth, talks must include discussions on azadi; the framework of the Indian Constitution is the scaffolding of slavery
> 
> He remembers the many instances when the army used him and others as human shields. He emerged into prominence when he held protests against forced labour camps across the Mawar belt, eventually compelling the army to abandon the practice. Locals remembered this; when he stood as an independent candidate for the 2008 poll, Rashid won 61.5 percent of the votes. Ever since the protests started, he has been in his constituency and in July, as a mark of protest, he even refused the security detail allotted to him. He is perhaps the only legislator who trusts his people.
> 
> This is a peoples movement. Thus, development will have to be accompanied by movement on peoples aspirations, says Rashid. People say he is with them when they need him and by giving up his security, he has become even closer to them. He has come to us and helped us with problems we had with the army and we have thousands of problems. He was with us as an engineer, he remains with us as an MLA, says Noori, who had voted for Rashid. The MLA agrees that his relevance is because he is pro-people. If the mainstream leaders behave like Indian agents, they will not be relevant but if they act as peoples representatives, they will be as relevant as Geelani is, he says.
> 
> However, Rashid and leaders like Mehbooba, who are facing the brunt of public ire, are faced with the same conundrum. She remarks wryly that the green of the PDP flag is seen as treacherous in India and, at the same time, is seen in Kashmir as the treacherous green of the Indian tricolour. Rashid, too, sums up his life in a couplet:
> 
> 
> Hate figure People in Kreeri have vowed to teach their MLA Basharat Bukhari a lesson in the next Assembly election
> 
> The infidel looks at me suspiciously because I am a Muslim The narrow-minded Muslim looks down on me as an infidel.
> 
> EVERY TIME separatists spearhead an azadi agitation, Kashmirs mainstream politics and leadership suddenly disappear, waiting for the calm to return. In the past three months of protests, where 70 have died in police and CRPF firing, mainstream politicians responded with complete inaction. Uniformed men have been the only contact between the government and the people. It took Omar more than a month and severe media criticism to pay a customary visit to the injured in a Srinagar hospital. Hardly any mainstream leader has even attempted to meet the families of the deceased. The response from the PDP has also been similar. PDP leaders Mufti Mohammad Sayeed and Mehbooba have restricted themselves to press releases and condemnations. Apart from Rashid, not one elected representative has stayed in their constituencies.
> 
> From a distance, this approach by the elected leaders seems like political suicide. How can a leader who needs votebanks for survival afford to stay away from his people, especially at a time of crisis? Why would an elected government want the police and the CRPF to be its only public face? Why are mainstream politicians  who dont spare a single opportunity to brag about the 60 percent voter turnout in the 2008 election  hesitating to face the political challenge thrown at them by the separatists? If an unelected and fugitive separatist like Masrat Aalam can roam around the city by night and address people in mosques, where are the nine elected NC representatives from Srinagar, many of whom hold senior positions in the government? If Bandipore and Sonwar started the trend of mass peoples participation in the election, why are the elected representatives from those very constituencies now shying from standing among those very people?
> 
> Kashmir may have changed but the sentiment that drives the people out on streets has not. A look at the political landscape since 1947 explains the absence of mainstream leaders and politics whenever separatist sentiment takes centrestage. In a nutshell, the Kashmiri mainstream suffers from perpetual guilt even as it engages in politics.
> 
> 
> Burnt Congress MLA Mohammad Sayeds house was set on fire
> 
> This guilt stems from a history of flirtation with Pakistan and the idea of an independent state. Though publicly in favour of secular India, Sheikh Abdullah would preface his public speeches with Quranic verses. His deputy, Afzal Beigh, would often put a lump of rock salt into a green handkerchief held aloft, to silently indicate allegiance to the Pakistani flag. Practices such as these sowed the seeds of this trend of keeping mainstream politics vague and open to multiple interpretations. No democrat himself, the Sheikh threw out every politician who disagreed with him over accession to India, even forcing some of them into exile. However, the Sheikh, then Prime Minister of J&K was unceremoniously arrested and his government felled on 9 August 1953 after New Delhi became convinced he was conniving with the United States to declare an independent state.
> 
> This undemocratic move was pivotal in creating a political culture in Kashmir where it became imperative for politicians to keep their electoral rhetoric and agenda a small step below the separatist line while retaining the blessings of New Delhi, so crucial to retaining the seat of power in Srinagar. From 1953 to 1974, while the Sheikh remained incarcerated in Indian jails, the NC, which had monopolised Kashmiri politics became separatist in nature under the banner of the Mahaz-e-Raishumari (Plebiscite Front) banner and was officially banned from any political activity.
> 
> Mainstream parties dont want to fight separatists because they too seek votes on manifestos that promise a renegotiated relationship with India
> 
> Separatist sentiments among the NC were so strong that the Sheikhs oldest son Farooq, then studying medicine in London, flew to ***************** Kashmir and took an oath as a member of the JKLF, an event he was to deny later. The Sheikh was released in 1975 and even after the Kashmir accord (Indira-Abdullah accord of 1975) helped him to return to power, his political posturing didnt change much. Aware of the sentiment on ground, he positioned himself and his party not only as Kashmir-centric but as one dead set against any moves to integrate Kashmir into the Indian Union. In his new avatar, he put forth autonomy as his slogan, with the restoration of the honour and dignity of Kashmiris and a promise to open borders with Pakistan forming his main political agenda.
> 
> The Sheikh may have kept the rhetoric intact but it was clear that he had accepted that the only source of power in Kashmir was New Delhi. Signalling the shift, he called Plebiscite Front politics awaragardi (vagrancy). Thus, even after his return to Kashmiri politics centrestage, the Sheikh never pressed his partys agenda, keeping busy in setting up his still-extant political dynasty.
> 
> 
> Pacifier NC MLA Mohammad Sagar has tried to defuse tensions
> 
> The New Delhi-managed split between the NC and the Abdullah family after the Sheikhs death and the subsequent dismissal of an elected government led by Farooq had a serious impact on the politics of the scion of Abdullah family. Farooq has never believed in the power of his people and his nocturnal dismissal in 1984 convinced him that real power continued to flow from the Centre. His belief was reinforced when the Centre helped him to return to power through the massively rigged 1987 election, where he had joined hands with Rajiv Gandhi to set up a NC-Congress alliance.
> 
> From 1990 to 1996, after armed militancy erupted in the Valley, mainstream parties vanished from Kashmir. During those tumultuous years, the first voices challenging separatists didnt come from the NC but from the Congress Ghulam Rasool Kar, who would make pro-India speeches via a loudspeaker from inside a bullet-proof Maruti Gypsy, surrounded by hundreds of armed guards.
> 
> After the 1996 election brought the NC back to power with a two-thirds majority and though the situation began to settle down, mainstream parties remained limited to a few zones, holding up a threat to their lives from militant outfits as an excuse. Despite having substantial numbers in the Assembly, Farooq delayed action on his promise of greater autonomy until Sayeed left the Congress to create the PDP, to challenge the domination of the NC.
> 
> SAYEED, WHO was the Union Home Minister in 1990, had realised that Congress politics wouldnt fetch him much in Kashmir. He regularly lost elections and was even despised by people for being an integrationist. For all his four decades of political life, he had been against the Sheikhs brand of politics and had struck hard at armed militancy when he became the Union minister. He brought in Jagmohan as governor of J&K and presided over the Centres iron-fist approach in tackling Kashmirs azadi movement. But once Sayeed left the Congress to set up the PDP, he took, as his election symbol, the pen and inkpot of the Muslim United Front (MUF), the party his (then) Congress defeated in the rigged 1987 election. Ironically, the MUF was to become the Hurriyat Conference. The party came up with a new political language that sounded sympathetic to both the militants and the azadi movement.
> 
> 
> Target PDP MLA Nizamudin Bhat is also facing threats of lynching
> 
> In fact, the NC and the PDP have both measured the distance between Delhi and Srinagar and have placed themselves at the farthest possible distance from the Centre. The NCs politics and particularly, its rhetoric, revolves around autonomy, a State-Centre relationship which would connect J&K to the Indian Union only through the threads of defence, external affairs, communication and currency. The PDP has gone a step ahead; putting forth a selfrule agenda that proposes suzerainty along with the creation of cross- LOC institutions to bring the two parts of Kashmir together.
> 
> Neither party has challenged separatists directly; both have advocated that Delhi must hold a dialogue with separatists; both insist that the 2008 election was only on bijli, sadak, pani (electricity, roads, water) and would have no implications on the larger conflict. This positioning has a reason: the parties dont want to directly challenge the separatists because they too seek votes on manifestos that promise a renegotiated relationship with the Indian Union. Thus, whenever people rise up against India and streets fill with protesters seeking azadi, whenever separatists take centrestage, the mainstream withdraws to the secure confines of their homes and offices, waiting for the storm to pass.
> 
> Like lemmings urged on by some fatal, silent rhythm, this is what we have seen repeat itself in the past three months. Mainstream politicians know the yawning chasm that separates their populist public positions from the actual ones. And they know that the people know it too. Crippled by guilt and an awareness of their flawed practices, when rage walks the streets, defying bullets, when shouts of azadi rend the air, mainstream politics does not  cannot  reach out to its people. It sinks, instead, into the chasm.



Tehelka - India's Independent Weekly News Magazine

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## Areesh

DGMO said:


> Bit of a tongue twister from you, I'm not sure I quite follow, but interesting multiple use of 'reality' and 'rational'.
> 
> Well then continue to live in cloud cuckoo land, and let me know how much progress you make on this issue. Won't be much that's for sure.



Thanks. It is better to live in cuckoo land than posing as wise and intellectual when you aren't one.


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## somebozo

Let us safeguard our own human rights first. Two weeks ago two brothers lynched in a medival style brutality. Then a contractor stoned to death with bricks by no other than uploader of law and order ie: the wukala's. Pakistan is heading to self destruction.


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## majesticpankaj

i will only participate in discussion, after listening to world opinions (official stand)


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> India firmly rejects gratuitous Pak statements on Jammu & Kashmir





> For the second time this week, Pakistan on Friday called upon India to exercise restraint in Indian occupied Kashmir (IoK) and urged the international community to take steps for safeguarding the human rights of Kashmiris. It also sought early and full resumption of the dialogue process with India; adding that Pakistan wants a constructive, sustained and result-oriented dialogue on all issues including the Jammu & Kashmir (J&K) dispute.
> 
> The statement issued by the Foreign Office takes serious note of the deteriorating situation in Kashmir.
> 
> The Kashmiris are unanimous in their demand for self-determination. This sentiment and its firm determination is being reflected in the peaceful protests of the youth, women and all segments of civil society.
> 
> Condemning the brutality of the security forces, Pakistan said the killing of innocent Kashmiris, continued arrests and detention of Kashmiri leaders was unacceptable.
> 
> The statement said Pakistan was committed to finding a fair and peaceful resolution of the issue of Jammu & Kashmir in accordance with the relevant United Nations resolutions and wishes and aspirations of the Kashmiri people.
> 
> This is the second time this week that Pakistan has issued an official statement on the situation in Kashmir. The last statement was issued on Tuesday, a day after 15 people were killed.



Pak urges international community to safeguard human rights in Kashmir


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## Spring Onion

Two more Kashmiris were killed by Indian terrorist Army today.

Two killed, 16 injured in fresh protests in Kashmir

SRINAGAR: Two persons were killed and 16 others injured as security forces allegedly opened fire to quell stone-pelting mobs at four places in Budgam and Baramulla districts of central Kashmir on Friday.

The fresh protests came even as curfew remained in force in Srinagar and other major towns of the Kashmir Valley for the fifth successive day today.

Five persons were injured when security forces allegedly opened fire to disperse hundreds of people who defied curfew and indulged in stone-pelting at Churpora village of Beerwah, 32 kms from here, in Budgam district, official sources said.

One of the critically injured identified as Fayaz Ahmad Dar was rushed to SKIMS Medical College Hospital at Bemina where he was declared brought dead by the doctors, they said.

Another youth Ghulam Rasool Bhat was killed and eight others injured when security forces allegedly opened fire and used pump action gun to chase away curfew-defying mob at Tapper Payeen in Pattan area of Baramulla district, the sources said.

Bhat was taken to Sumbal sub-district hospital where he succumbed to injuries, they said.

With the fresh killings, the toll in the ongoing unrest, since June 11, in the Kashmir Valley has risen to 93.

Three more persons were injured in clashes between security forces and protestors at Sangrama in Baramulla district, the sources said, adding security forces allegedly opened fire in an attempt to bring the situation under control.

Another person identified as Mohammad Shafi was hit by a bullet in the leg when security forces allegedly opened fire after being attacked by a stone-pelting mob at Chichloora-Magam, 25 kms from here, on Srinagar- Gulmarg road, the sources said.

They said the situation in the areas, hit by fresh violence, was tense as hundreds of people have gathered on the roads to protest against the security forces firing.

Curfew was being strictly implemented across the Valley in order to thwart the call for a march to various violence-hit areas given by hardline faction of Hurriyat Conference, which is spearheading the ongoing agitation.

Geelani-led Hurriyat has asked people from North Kashmir except Kupwara district to march to Palhallan in Baramulla district, while the residents of Ganderbal, Budgam and Srinagar were asked to head to Humhama area of Budgam.

The residents of South Kashmir were asked to march to Pampore town in Pulwama district, while the residents of Kupwara were asked to hold peaceful protests at the district headquarters against the recent killings.

Pampore, Humhama and Palhallan have been the worst hit areas in the clashes between the protestors and security forces over the last fortnight and most of the deaths have occurred in these areas.

Curfew was imposed in Sriangar on Sunday and was extended to entire Kashmir Valley the next day following large scale violence and massive protests.

Read more: Two killed, 16 injured in fresh protests in Kashmir - The Times of India Two killed, 16 injured in fresh protests in Kashmir - The Times of India

Read more: Two killed, 16 injured in fresh protests in Kashmir - The Times of India Two killed, 16 injured in fresh protests in Kashmir - The Times of India


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## deckingraj

DGMO said:


> Appreciate the positive words bro, don't worry, there are many like me, just hope more made a splash on this forum. Too many patriotic (or idiotic, whichever way you look at it!) people get clouded in their sentiments.


You are right...what i would love to have is such sane people rising to the occasion and stop this madness going on....



> If you approach an angle as take take take, refusing to look at the situation from the opposing perspective, then how can one expect progress? My experience tells me that those Pakistani's that are living abroad, are more passionate about this issue than the common man back in Pakistan!
> 
> Yet you speak to these people like I do in the UK, and they know nothing about the dynamics of Kashmir, the different stakeholders, the views from India's perspective, who Syed Salahuddin is, who Geelani is, what article 370 is, what autonomy means, the history, our failings etc etc. It's constant 'Kashmir banega Pakistan'.
> 
> If you're going to be blinded by your patriotism, and blind hatred of India, then you need to be educated about this complex matter we have on our hands - and *start to accept reality.*


words of a wise man....



> Reality is that we can find a solution, place our hatred behind us and prosper not in isolation, but together.


Absolutely correct....



> Unfortunately, Pakistani's do allow their emotions to get the better of them, and that leads to poor decision making.


There are scores of Indian's who follow the same trait, however not entirely their fault....Hawks on both sides never let them know what the reality is....Though what amazes me is that why the educated folks backed with the power of internet cannot call spade a spade...



> We care more about the Palestinians for example than the Arabs themselves. Why? It seems we needs a bogeyman to blame and to act as an outlet for our own frustrations, whether it's India or Israel. It never ceases to amaze me.


This is actually one thing that amazes me the most when it comes to Pakistan...There has to be some vision on how the policy makers want to see Pakistan...A small analogy but fits here....When Barack Obama was running for presedential elections he never used Black card to get votes....He portrayed him as the predential candidate for all americans and end up as winner...Pakistan wants to carry the torche of Islam is fine but one should always look out to make more friends....Nothing wrong in Learning from mistakes of India....We are still unclear about how we want to handle Kashmir and results are in front of us...In other words Foreign policy is one thing where one should not mess with....High time pakistan should follow the foot prints of countries like Turkey....




> As patriotic as I am, and I love my country to bits, there is no reason why we as neighbours (whether it is in the sub-continent, or here in the UK) can't get along. If Bopanna and Qureshi are setting the benchmark, then we need to follow in that direction. Believe me, it can be done.



I see no reason why it cannot be done...However what puts me off is that the coming generations have no sentiments for neighbours...I was amazed to see that civil society in India did not put enough pressure on GOI to send Aid to Pakistan sooner then when it was actually offered...same at pakistan end...GOP dilly-Dallied for quite long and civil society could not put enough pressure to take on the Aid....Finally the pressure came from US which is shocking..Anyways hoping for the best....


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## Skeptic

Kakgeta said:


> AT THE MOMENT AJ&K is an autonomous region, thus the oath carries the line highlighted above. *Should IHK be declared independent today, the line highlighted above shall be removed.*
> 
> That is why it is called an Interim constitution..................



India does not claim to support this option or for that matter even negotiate independence. How can Kashmir be declared independent, if there is no option for independence in UN offered referendum, India is openly against even negotiating this option and Pakistan thus far has never supported it. (If it has provide an instance)

All the time Pakistanis are huffing and puffing over their claim to support Independence of Kashmir. All this talk is never backed by official action and thus the claim of hypocrisy.




Kakgeta said:


> That is self-criticism based on a single person's personal view. I would like a report based on facts not personal beliefs. Thank You...............



I am not trying to instigate any debate on reports (by UN or anyone else) simply asking to provide a single instance of Pakistan officially supporting Independence option in Kashmir.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

TextMiner said:


> There was another part of the same country that got Independence on August 14, 1947 and had the same Flag ; Unfortunately now that country celebrates its Independence day on March 26 now



why ''unfortunately'' ??? 




> , and has a Red Sun (metaphorically the Colour of its people's blood spilt) against a Dark Green Background.



you mean this?








another good looking flag....i heard it sells well in West Bengal/Nagaland 




> I wonder what flag colour are these guys going to have when they celebrate their Indpependence day.



their own

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## PakiiZeeshan

@ TextMiner

What's up with your Avatar?


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## deckingraj

Areesh said:


> Well they always condemned violence and their are dozens of their statements where they asked people to refrain from violence. But on the other hand they also continued their struggle of their valley by the foreigners. So they always asked people of IOK to refrain from violence which you didn't read because of your stubbornness to continue your occupation of the land which never belong to you.



I amnot being stubborn here but you are....I very well know about appeals of Geelani to refrain from violence so don't put your judgement on me without even knowing what i know and what not...Moreover understand the question properly before you hit the reply button....

This whole saga has continued for 2-3 months...Crowds have been repeatedly violent and yet they carried on with protest...Why is this self-conscious correction now??? Do you want my help to fill in the blank or can relate it with so called useless delegation coming in on Monday???



> Use google for those appeals. Thanks


I am well-versed with happening in my country so i don't need google for that...However you might need some googling to find out truth and how useless/useful delegation is going to be and who are all part of this delegation....




> No I know about that delegation crap. That was the only decision out of that useless APC. And this delegation thing would be as useless as the APC in which it was decided.



well if you already know it is crap then what are you doing in this thread...When you already know this then please care to explain what are you here to discuss???

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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> And you were providing the same chart on some other thread also. I think giving it once was enough for your self satisfaction.



Sir ji.. By that logic your no of posts would be less than 500.. Innit? The same old story about Kashmir being repeated over and over again 

Jokes apart, such numbers tell a compelling story that can be used as a reference in many discussions.

Think about it honestly. Such a lot of noise on deaths of 90 civilians in 3 months.. Go back to 2001 and this was the story of every month. Makes you think.. Innit??

Also look at the attrition ratio of the sec forces against the terrorists/freedom fighters .. Compelling again.


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## Icarus

Skeptic said:


> India does not claim to support this option or for that matter even negotiate independence. How can Kashmir be declared independent, if there is no option for independence in UN offered referendum, India is openly against even negotiating this option and Pakistan thus far has never supported it. (If it has provide an instance)
> 
> All the time Pakistanis are huffing and puffing over their claim to support Independence of Kashmir. All this talk is never backed by official action and thus the claim of hypocrisy.



Complete Independence is one of the options promised to the Kashmiris by the UN in the form of a plebiscite that Nehru promised would be held when "Conditions Normalize" however it seems that in India's book the situation has never "Normalized". So we don't really care if Independence is a viable option in India's eyes as long as the UN says it is. Pakistan has always supported the plebiscite and therefore has always supported the Kashmiris right to self-determination. "Kashmirion koh Haq-e-Khudaradiat ada karo" is the literal meaning of our policy regarding Kashmir. We do support Kashmiri freedom on all levels whether they be national policy or just a corner shop debate. No hypocrisy as far as this topic is concerned.



> I am not trying to instigate any debate on reports (by UN or anyone else) simply asking to provide a single instance of Pakistan officially supporting Independence option in Kashmir.



You can't hope to bring up Kahmir and not attract a debate in a Pakistani forum. If you want to discuss Kashmir without debate try the Slovakia Defence Forum.

PS: Looks like you overlooked the passage highlighted in Red.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

you do analysis based on parameters -were they met or not.

Sri Lanka crushed the 25/30 year old LTTE terror. In other words, they succeeded.


but Kashmiri seperatists dont have a makeshift air force; dont use suicide bombs; and are generally non-violent people just protesting against indian occupation


again -- believe referendum is the best solution. You have on numerous occasions told me why YOU THINK it would not be feasible. We're at a roadblock obviously, our differences are irr-reconcilable. Let's just agree to disagree then; more power to you for at least arguing maturely unlike some of our other guests here


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## DesiGuy

SnIPeR Xr said:


> First show one flag of that country which you are supporting.
> Other wise in your every post I have to reply you with your post in which you admitted that you are a Indian.
> I can understand what Impression you are trying to give by showing these flags.





I don't know how many times will i have to explain the reason. 

btw, if you have checked my posts where i admit being indian, also check then my posts praising USA and bashing india. 

btw, i am ateast admitting it, some ppl here in US won't even do that.  


I am a US citizen and Proud to be one.


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## Skeptic

Kakgeta said:


> You should have read the whole thing, you might have read something that you couldn't take out of context:
> 
> WHEREAS the future status of the State of Jammu and Kashmir is yet to be determined in accordance with the freely expressed will of the people of the State through the democratic method of free and fair plebiscite under the auspices of the United Nations as envisaged in the UNCIP Resolutions adopted from time to time;



I have not debated the UN report or any article. Just simply asking for a single instance showing Pakistan's official support for Independence option of Kashmir.

UN resolution is amply debated and it does not have a provision for Independent Kashmir. Only choices are accession with a) India b) Pakistan.

Has Pakistan ever tried to add the third option? Has it ever suggested a solution which has provision for Independent Kashmir? Has it ever made any statement (at an international summit) supporting Independence option?

That is the question everyone is shying away from. We all know what UN has recommended and we have our reasons to support or be against those suggestions, but what seems most interesting is even PDF admins leave alone innocent Kashmiris - Think that UN resolution offers an option for independent Kashmir and Pakistan is supporting it by pushing for referendum.

Example :



Asim Aquil said:


> Pakistan has always pushed for plebiscite, not simple integration. The rules of the plebiscite always clearly state that they may join India, Pakistan or choose Independence. So we're quite open to the idea of a Kashmiri independence.

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## DesiGuy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> did you see the Kashmiris hanging our Nation's flag at the clock tower @ Lal Chowk
> 
> in fact, I made it my desktop wall paper






Just make sure you have a good anti-virus.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

it pertains to that cheesy publicity stunt; there was a thread on it which was closed (thank God)


well intentioned...but cheesy as hell. Some fundamentalist Muslim young lady hand in hand with some hindu kid who is dressed as a deity of some kind (maybe the indian hindus here can elaborate further)


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## Skeptic

Kakgeta said:


> C*omplete Independence is one of the options promised to the Kashmiris by the UN in the form of a plebiscite* that Nehru promised would be held when "Conditions Normalize" however it seems that in India's book the situation has never "Normalized". So we don't really care if Independence is a viable option in India's eyes as long as the UN says it is. Pakistan has always supported the plebiscite and therefore has always supported the Kashmiris right to self-determination. "Kashmirion koh Haq-e-Khudaradiat ada karo" is the literal meaning of our policy regarding Kashmir. We do support Kashmiri freedom on all levels whether they be national policy or just a corner shop debate. No hypocrisy as far as this topic is concerned.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't hope to bring up Kahmir and not attract a debate in a Pakistani forum. If you want to discuss Kashmir without debate try the Slovakia Defence Forum.
> 
> PS: Looks like you overlooked the passage highlighted in Red.



You are 100&#37; wrong in the bolded part. Read the resolutions you are so excited to shove down Kashmiri throats. It has no provision for Independence. Either Pakistan or India.

Exactly what I was referring to. UN resolutions have no option for Independent Kashmir. Pakistan has popularized this misconception. I rest my case.

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## justanobserver

> UN resolution is amply debated and *it does not have a provision for Independent Kashmir*. Only choices are accession with a) India b) Pakistan.



Exactly!

Apparently 'self-determination' doesn't include independence







> Has Pakistan ever tried to add the third option? Has it ever suggested a solution which has provision for Independent Kashmir? Has it ever made any statement (at an international summit) supporting Independence option?

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## Skeptic

Frankenstein said:


> It seems like, right now you Guys have taken oath to destroy the reputation of Defense.pk by bringing Kashmir to the discussion and start pouring your bullsh1t into it, Just like an idiot bring you down to his level and beat you with his experience
> 
> *So why dont you drop it, or take it some where else, Baharat Rakshak seems to be a good place*



No sir, just to educate some members about the actual provisions of UN resolution they swear by day in and day out. And to expose the hypocrisy in Pakistan's alleged support to independent Kashmir.

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## mjnaushad

Actually they'll be allow to vote

1 India
2 Pakistan



They choose Pakistan and then we'll give them independence......

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## TextMiner

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> why ''unfortunately'' ???


So, you consider partition of Pakistan a Fortunate event for you ; Then you are one of the shining examples following Ayub Khan's Martial Race theory.


Abu Zolfiqar said:


> another good looking flag....i heard it sells well in West Bengal/Nagaland


Ya, because it gives hedonistic incentives to the Bangladeshis who have migrated out so they can wave them on March 26 and shed a tear or two on the Genocide perpetrated on their fellow men when they were part of a country having the Green Crescent and star.


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## IBRIS

Is the Flag still at Lal Chowk or was it teared up by police later...???

It's easy to hoist flags anywhere in free countries, what matters is does the flag still there ?...So much for the 2 minute laugh and your flag got desecrated. 

Flag isn't there anymore. So, move on and continue crying us a river.


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## Areesh

deckingraj said:


> I amnot being stubborn here but you are....I very well know about appeals of Geelani to refrain from violence so don't put your judgement on me without even knowing what i know and what not...Moreover understand the question properly before you hit the reply button....



Good you know something about IOK.



> This whole saga has continued for 2-3 months...Crowds have been repeatedly violent and yet they carried on with protest...Why is this self-conscious correction now??? Do you want my help to fill in the blank or can relate it with so called useless delegation coming in on Monday???



Well it has been going for years and than thousands have been killed by your heroes. You would ask why didn't huriat asked to call off their movement by than. Like come on yaar you aren't that dumb(I think). They have been calling for non violence in all these months but the kashmiri youth is too frustrated with the fact that their land is occupied by foreigners and this makes them violence and forces them to stone pelting. In result your "heroes" kill those terrorists. And as a Kashmir keeps on burning.

As far as delegation is concern the Kashmiris also hate such cosmetic craps from New Dehli. They don't want the foreigners to visit their land. They are uninvited and the things would remain the same even after this delegation gets lost from the IOK.



> I am well-versed with happening in my country so i don't need google for that



Hey Hey hold on. IOK isn't your country. Now you definitely need Google.



> However you might need some googling to find out truth and how useless/useful delegation is going to be and who are all part of this delegation....



Well I googled and realized that the APC was crap and Kashmiris rejected that APC and all it's decisions.



> well if you already know it is crap then what are you doing in this thread



Giving the reality check that why Mr Ali Geelani drops the plan for Sep 21. The thread is about Sep 21 about the crap of APC.


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## Skeptic

mjnaushad said:


> Actually they'll be allow to vote
> 
> 1 India
> 2 Pakistan
> 
> 
> 
> They choose Pakistan and then we'll give them independence......



I know this thread will now be left to die with silly comments such as this to cover up the hypocrisy and falsehood propagated. The most zealous person in this debate till now has suddenly vanished after being proven wrong and without acknowledging the same.

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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> Sir ji.. By that logic your no of posts would be less than 500.. Innit? The same old story about Kashmir being repeated over and over again
> 
> Jokes apart, such numbers tell a compelling story that can be used as a reference in many discussions.
> 
> Think about it honestly. Such a lot of noise on deaths of 90 civilians in 3 months.. Go back to 2001 and this was the story of every month. Makes you think.. Innit??
> 
> Also look at the attrition ratio of the sec forces against the terrorists/freedom fighters .. Compelling again.



Like come on Karan. It doesn't matter what your army did in Kashmir. Fake encounters, Real encounters, Rapes etc etc. The issue is IOK is still burning because of the illegitimate occupation of IOK by foreigners. Until this issue is resolved the things aren;t going to get better and these are all cosmetic attempts by the Bharatis.

End of occupation will definitely make your Army's hard work fruitful. They were working to bring peace in the IOK and peace is only possible with freedom.


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## TextMiner

PakiiZeeshan said:


> @ TextMiner
> 
> What's up with your Avatar?





Abu Zolfiqar said:


> it pertains to that cheesy publicity stunt; there was a thread on it which was closed (thank God)
> 
> 
> well intentioned...but cheesy as hell. *Some fundamentalist Muslim young lady hand in hand with some hindu kid who is dressed as a deity of some kind* (maybe the indian hindus here can elaborate further)


Ya, maybe i should have put up a picture of a Woman telling her son and neighbour kids to stop going school and pelt stones and chant "Azaadi, Azaadi" while she talks about the latest Saas-bahu twist in the Soap she regularly watches with her fellow like-minded women intermittently motoring "Azaadi" in between...That maybe could have been a better Avatar, i guess.

On a serious note, It is a picture of a Muslim woman who dresses her son as Lord Krishna for a school function in Patna on the occasion of Krishna-Janmashtami (The Day Lord Krishna was born) ; I thought it represented a certain undercurrent of the Indian social fabric.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

TextMiner said:


> So, you consider partition of Pakistan a Fortunate event for you ; Then you are one of the shining examples following Ayub Khan's Martial Race theory.



Nah I'm just not a hypocrite. 




> Ya, because it gives hedonistic incentives to the Bangladeshis who have *migrated out *so they can wave them on March 26 and shed a tear or two on the Genocide perpetrated on their fellow men when they were part of a country having the Green Crescent and star.



that made a lot of sense.....

I've actually read quite the opposite!! 













FAIL


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## deckingraj

@ Areesh

Seems like you know a lot about crap and kashmir...So good luck with your knowledge....

Regards....


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## Abu Zolfiqar

IBRIS said:


> Is the Flag still at Lal Chowk or was it teared up by police later...???



who knows -- do you have a news report? We know that it was put up there thanks to the photographs taken by the protestors.

do you have photos showing it being taken down?




> It's easy to hoist flags anywhere in free countries, what matters is does the flag still there ?...So much for the 2 minute laugh and your flag got desecrated.



again, do you have pictures or a news source?


by the way --the fact that the Kashmiris would hoist it up is enough for us. Very symbollic and kind gesture. The fact that it went UP to begin with, and the fact that there are no pro-indian counter-protestors or people hanging indian flag anywhere in site says wonders 




> Flag isn't there anymore. So, move on and continue crying us a river.



why would any Pakistani here be crying??? We're happy that Kashmiris support Pakistan Nation and hang our flag @ Lal Chowk and other areas.


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## deckingraj

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> you do analysis based on parameters -were they met or not.
> 
> Sri Lanka crushed the 25/30 year old LTTE terror. In other words, they succeeded.
> 
> 
> but Kashmiri seperatists dont have a makeshift air force; dont use suicide bombs; and are generally non-violent people just protesting against indian occupation
> 
> 
> again -- believe referendum is the best solution. You have on numerous occasions told me why YOU THINK it would not be feasible. We're at a roadblock obviously, our differences are irr-reconcilable. Let's just agree to disagree then; more power to you for at least arguing maturely unlike some of our other guests here



I would like to discuss a bit more, if you don't mind...I strongly believe unless and until Kashmiri's don't get backing of mainstream india nothing will happen especially when GOI might is increasing mani folds...I am ready to agree with your referndum solution if you can convince me how will you create a situation which is not unfair to either India, Pakistan and people of Jammu and Kashmir....Can you please share your thoughts on it??

As far as mature discussion is concerned then we all are capable of it bearing we balance emotions with logic...Anyways waiting for your thoughts...


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Like come on Karan. It doesn't matter what your army did in Kashmir. Fake encounters, Real encounters, Rapes etc etc. The issue is IOK is still burning because of the illegitimate occupation of IOK by foreigners. Until this issue is resolved the things aren;t going to get better and these are all cosmetic attempts by the Bharatis.
> 
> End of occupation will definitely make your Army's hard work fruitful. They were working to bring peace in the IOK and peace is only possible with freedom.



And the point I am making is that post 1987, fresh from success in Afghanistan, Pakistan stated promoting insurgency in J&K. From that time down, the things have settled down quite a bit as is visible from the data posted.

On illegitimate occupation, its an oft repeated but zero value chant. Looks good in rallies organized by likes of Hafiz Saeed and ignorant protesters in Kashmir valley, but has no significance on the ground.


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## TextMiner

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> that made a lot of sense.....
> 
> I've actually read quite the opposite!!


So u wanted me to mention a word illegal beside migration ; Naah, i might cash that chip later for a rainy day, right now its hot and humid in Kashmir ; But like every sunny day, this will also have a sunset. So, make hay while the Sun shines  !!!


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## IBRIS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> who knows -- do you have a news report? We know that it was put up there thanks to the photographs taken by the protestors.
> 
> do you have photos showing it being taken down?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> again, do you have pictures or a news source?
> 
> 
> by the way --the fact that the Kashmiris would hoist it up is enough for us. Very symbollic and kind gesture. The fact that it went UP to begin with, and the fact that there are no pro-indian counter-protestors or people hanging indian flag anywhere in site says wonders
> 
> 
> 
> 
> why would any Pakistani here be crying??? We're happy that Kashmiris support Pakistan Nation and hang our flag @ Lal Chowk and other areas.



Do you have a proof of it still being there while Police is there at this moment keeping law and order. What makes you think those police officers won't take it down...?

Please don't give me pictures of the day when mobs hoisted it there. Aparantly none of protesters would risk trying to stay there 24/7 to keep on to guard the LAL Chowk. LOL you are funny guy..... save the argument for little kids to entertain. No police would accept other countries flag over there own anywhere. 

Why don't you prove it that it's still there as of right at this moment. They tear that pakistani flag and leave it on ground for people to step on.

So, don't give me pictures of protests, instead just post a present pic of 9/17/10....I'm not a fool so don't try the photoshop tactic with me.

It's good to laugh for few minutes, but think about your flag could be desecrated and insulted by others. I would never want my countries flag hoisted anywhere where it could be a tool to played around with. Your flag was 1001&#37; desecrated and torn to pieces if not stepped on. Maybe they collected it to burn it through the winter to keep warn, Who knows.

Kashmiri's are also people and they eat,sh!t and fart, then go home. No one has the stamina to stay up 24/7.


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## Icarus

Skeptic said:


> I know this thread will now be left to die with silly comments such as this to cover up the hypocrisy and falsehood propagated. The most zealous person in this debate till now has suddenly vanished after being proven wrong and without acknowledging the same.



Oh don't worry my friend. I don't just vanish without a fight, it's load shedding that is forcing me to vanish !
I will be back with some more material give me 10 minutes.

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## TextMiner

IBRIS said:


> Do you have a proof of it still being there while Police is there at this moment keeping law and order. What makes you think those police officers won't take it down...?
> 
> Please don't give me pictures of the day when mobs hoisted it there. Aparantly none of protesters would risk trying to stay there 24/7 to keep on to guard the LAL Chowk. LOL you are funny guy..... save the argument for little kids to entertain. No police would accept other countries flag over there own anywhere.
> 
> Why don't you prove it that it's still there as of right at this moment. They tear that pakistani flag and leave it on ground for people to step on.
> 
> So, don't give me pictures of protests, instead just post a present pic of 9/17/10....I'm not a fool so don't try the photoshop tactic with me.


Sometimes, such situations seem laughable ; I see threads being opened as "Why is Pakistan so backward ?", "What ails Pakistan ?", "What's wrong with Pakistan ?" and in the midst of all their humanitarian disasters, with TTP frolicking about with their Diwali duties in Pakistan, Ahmedis being slaughtered in Pakistan, Ethnic cleansing in Karachi, and finally Shia-sunni sectarian killings occurring in a fortnightly basis, it is indeed comical seeing Pakistanis clutch on to straws in Kashmir like Flag-hoisting and Demonstrations being allowed in public view in front of the Entire World. Then they start proclaiming with high-fives all over the place that India should exercise restraint while they decimate and exterminate civilians in Swat and SW, claiming the killings as collateral damage.

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## Icarus

Skeptic said:


> You are 100% wrong in the bolded part. Read the resolutions you are so excited to shove down Kashmiri throats. It has no provision for Independence. Either Pakistan or India.
> 
> Exactly what I was referring to. UN resolutions have no option for Independent Kashmir. Pakistan has popularized this misconception. I rest my case.



Touché, But those were the options provided in 1947, the requirements of today's Kashmir differ greatly. Like I mentioned in the highlighted part, policy states that the Kashmiris will be given the right to choose between Pakistan and freedom. With Pakistanis not being allowed to travel in Kashmir to places other than Mirpur and Muzaffarabad without special permission. It hardly matters to them if the other part of Kashmir becomes a part of Pakistan since the people have no real sense of ownership of the land.

Addition: I was out reading the motions and reports passed about Kashmir in the U.N general assembly when I noticed that NOWHERE is it mentioned that the people will only be given the choice to join India or Pakistan with no third alternative being provided. Do you have any credible source to back up your claim ?


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## Skeptic

Kakgeta said:


> Touché, But those were the options provided in 1947, the requirements of today's Kashmir differ greatly. Like I mentioned in the highlighted part, policy states that the Kashmiris will be given the right to choose between Pakistan and freedom. With Pakistanis not being allowed to travel in Kashmir to places other than Mirpur and Muzaffarabad without special permission. It hardly matters to them if the other part of Kashmir becomes a part of Pakistan since the people have no real sense of ownership of the land.


Which policy states that Kashmiris will be given right to choose between *Pa**kistan and Freedom*?????

second line I could not comprehend.




> Addition: I was out reading the motions and reports passed about Kashmir in the U.N general assembly when I noticed that NOWHERE is it mentioned that the people will only be given the choice to join India or Pakistan with no third alternative being provided. Do you have any credible source to back up your claim ?



http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc21apr48.htm

Check the link for full text. I will post the relevant part:



> Recommends to the Governments of India and Pakistan the following measures as those which in the opinion of the Council and appropriate to bring about a cessation of the fighting and to create proper conditions for a free and impartial plebiscite to decide whether the State of Jammu and Kashmir is to accede to India or Pakistan.



Your misconception is not unique. Many Pakistanis and Kashmiris are deliberately made unaware of this fact that UN resolution does not have ANY option for independence. And Pakistan has NEVER supported Independence option for Kashmir. 

I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

TextMiner said:


> So u wanted me to mention a word illegal beside migration ; Naah, i might cash that chip later for a rainy day, right now its hot and humid in Kashmir



hmmm...so are you now claiming to be in occupied Kashmir? 




> But like every sunny day, this will also have a sunset. So, make hay while the Sun shines  !!!



no shortage of hay where you come from I would imagine! All those cows roaming around even big urban cities and all.


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## Icarus

Skeptic said:


> Which policy states that Kashmiris will be given right to choose between *Pa**kistan and Freedom*?????
> 
> second line I could not comprehend.



The policy highlighted by me previously. 




> http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc21apr48.htm



Again that is a "Recommendation". It is not a final verdict.


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## Skeptic

Kakgeta said:


> The policy highlighted by me previously.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again that is a "Recommendation". It is not a final verdict.



The policy states:


> WHEREAS the future status of the State of Jammu and Kashmir is yet to be determined in accordance with the freely expressed will of the people of the State through the democratic method of free and fair plebiscite under the auspices of the United Nations as envisaged in the UNCIP Resolutions adopted from time to time;



It states that the Future is to be decided by plebiscite as per UN, and UN suggests only 2 options. Is it not twisting it around. Where does the option of freedom come in??

Ofcourse UN resolutions are recommendation. Another point missed by several pakistanis that these resolutions are passed under chapter 6 of UN charter which means they are not binding. It is not international court to pass verdicts.

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## Icarus

Skeptic said:


> The policy states:
> 
> It states that the Future is to be decided by plebiscite as per UN, and UN suggests only 2 options. Is it not twisting it around. Where does the option of freedom come in??
> 
> Ofcourse UN resolutions are recommendation. Another point missed by several pakistanis that these resolutions are passed under chapter 6 of UN charter which means they are not binding. It is not international court to pass verdicts.



Like I said those two options are mere recommendations. They are not final. And they are not binding that is the only reason that India has the audacity to pay no heed to them.


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## Skeptic

Kakgeta said:


> Like I said those two options are mere recommendations. They are not final. And they are not binding that is the only reason that India has the audacity to pay no heed to them.


Are you serious???

These recommendations are all that your Pakistani brethren are holding onto. TIfPakistan really does support the freedom option - has it ever made an appeal - To UN, to India or at any other international forum?? NO NEVER. So quit the moral high ground that we Pakistanis will support free Kashmir - Coz you officially never have. That was the point I wanted to raise through this thread. Infact it is illegal to make any political organization to support freedom of Kashmir in Pakistan or Azad Kashmir.

Did you expect something like: THE UN COMMANDS THIS....

come on..

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## Pasban

*India deploys more troops in Kashmir*

_New Delhi has deployed hundreds of additional troops to Indian-administered Kashmir in a bid to quell deadly protests in the disputed Himalayan region. 
_

The deployment comes after troops once again fired on pro-independence protesters, killing two and injuring 16 on Friday. 

Security forces say they had to resort force to disperse stone-throwing protesters in the central Budgam district, a Press TV correspondent reported. 

Kashmir residents defied the curfew in Srinagar and other major towns, pelting security forces with stones. 

Kashmiris say the curfew, which has been in place for six consecutive days, has prevented them from getting food and other necessities. 

Top separatist leader, Seyyed Ali Geelani, has called on people to block Indian army camps with sit-in protests. 

"I have urged people to stage peaceful sit-in protests in front of army and security force camps in Kashmir," Geelani told reporters in Srinagar on Thursday. 

Since early June, violent street protests and crackdowns have left nearly 100 people dead. 

New Delhi has been repeatedly criticized for resorting to force rather than finding a diplomatic solution to the issue. 

Pakistan has accused India of "brutality" and condemned its deadly crackdown on protestors. 

"Pakistan strongly condemns the brutality and the blatant use of force by Indian security forces," said Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi. 

Both Islamabad and New Delhi claim the region in full, but rule over parts of it and have fought two wars over Kashmir. 

JR/HGH/MMN

PressTV - India deploys more troops in Kashmir


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Lahore: The Kashmir Action Committe (KAC) holds a protest demonstration against the indian government on Friday *


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Lahore: The Kashmir Action Committe (KAC) holds a protest demonstration against the indian government on Friday *


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## Icarus

Skeptic said:


> Are you serious???
> 
> These recommendations are all that your Pakistani brethren are holding onto. TIfPakistan really does support the freedom option - has it ever made an appeal - To UN, to India or at any other international forum?? NO NEVER. So quit the moral high ground that we Pakistanis will support free Kashmir - Coz you officially never have. That was the point I wanted to raise through this thread. Infact it is illegal to make any political organization to support freedom of Kashmir in Pakistan or Azad Kashmir.
> 
> Did you expect something like: THE UN COMMANDS THIS....
> 
> come on..



The only reason we don't go to an international forum to discuss freedom for Kashmir is because we are bound not to by the Simla Accord. Talks with India over freedom for kashmir have been initiated various times but ended without any thing of substance being agreed upon. Your last piece of information is incorrect, if such was the case then Gilgit-Baltistan would not have been a member of the Unrepresented nations Council.


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## nForce

your take on this matter pasban???

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## TextMiner

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> hmmm...so are you now claiming to be in occupied Kashmir?


That's correct, i am currently in "Azad Kashmir" now. So is "Azad Kashmir" occupied for you ? Do you and GoP use the same Dictionary while referring to "Azad" ? I get it now, Kashmiris chanting "Aazadi, Aazadi" want to be under subjugation as they are in "Azad Kashmir" ? Don't worry, we are telling them that they are actually in "Azad Kashmir" where for us, "Azad" means freedom.


Abu Zolfiqar said:


> no shortage of hay where you come from I would imagine! All those cows roaming around even big urban cities and all.


 Absolutely, but sometimes we see the neighbouring country put them to an even better use like making them share the road along with Cars and Trucks.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

justanobserver said:


> bump bump
> 
> Why is this thread getting absolutely zero attention ?



because its a useless, garbage thread....that's why

did anybody learn anything new? No. Is the feedback from you people any different? the standard rhetoric? No.


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## Icarus

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> because its a useless, garbage thread....that's why
> 
> did anybody learn anything new? No. Is the feedback from you people any different? the standard rhetoric? No.



Sir with all due respect why are you a "Non-state Actor" ?


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## Storm Force

Kashmir is not even an international agenda. 

I live in England nobody has herd of this dispute.

Nobody cares. 

Only Arab israeli dispute or WOT matters in Europe.

Kashmir will remain in status quo nothing will change


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## Skeptic

Kakgeta said:


> The only reason we don't go to an international forum to discuss freedom for Kashmir is because we are bound not to by the Simla Accord. Talks with India over freedom for kashmir have been initiated various times but ended without any thing of substance being agreed upon. Your last piece of information is incorrect, if such was the case then Gilgit-Baltistan would not have been a member of the Unrepresented nations Council.



Can you quote a single example of such talks where option was discussed. You were firstly convinced that UN resolutions have an option for Independent Kashmir - you were WRONG. Now this new rhetoric of Talks with India over independence - back it up with some facts. Dont guess in thin air. You wont be able to find any coz it is again WRONG.


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## Pasban

nForce said:


> your take on this matter pasban???



Are you referring to this particular piece of news or the Kashmir issue in general?


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## Awesome

Patrician said:


> Hi guys, as you are all aware, recent months have seen a very unfortunatre cycle of violence and unrest in J&K yet there's something very interesting to note. No major international power/organisation such as US/UK/France/China/Russia/UN/muslim or Arab world etc. has lent its voice to the kashmir issue even after so much trouble and so many deaths.
> 
> There is an unprecedented calm/silence over Kashmir in the international arena. Nobody is willing to take up the issue of kashmir except Pakistan.
> 
> My questional to all of you is, are we slowly but surely witnessing the 'internalising' of Kashmir as far as India is concerned? Are we witnessing an ever decreasing role of Pakistan/international community as far as Kashmir is concerned? There is a near total silence on Kashmir.
> 
> I,personally, feel that since India is now on its way to become a global power and a huge economic beacon of hope for the west as well as for China (in terms of India's huge market etc.) and also as the centre of global power slowly shifts from west to east and with west more and more grappling with many other much serious issues of its own which are primarily economic in nature, Kashmir has majorly lost and is still losing any international significance or relevance it one had...
> 
> What do you guys think?


You have to really have your head buried under the ground to have missed the amount of statements against India. 

The thing is, India has NEVER been criticized before. Not in the terms its being criticized now, as a tyrant, as brutal, as undemocratic and not with the frequency as it is now.

There is no gun fire against Indian security forces, its stones, kicks and slaps. India can't play the victim card any more.


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## Skeptic

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> because its a useless, garbage thread....that's why
> 
> did anybody learn anything new? No. Is the feedback from you people any different? the standard rhetoric? No.



You Back Flameboy. Atleast one member learned that what UN resolutions actually ask for and so did several other lurkers who thought likewise.

Feedback - There were none to prove Pakistani support to free kashmir.

PS: The picture proves my point further. The organization does not ask for a free kashmir.

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## Icarus

Skeptic said:


> Can you quote a single example of such talks where option was discussed. You were firstly convinced that UN resolutions have an option for Independent Kashmir - you were WRONG. Now this new rhetoric of Talks with India over independence - back it up with some facts. Dont guess in thin air. You wont be able to find any coz it is again WRONG.



My friend I was as wrong as you were with the UN thing, since it was a recommendation and nothing concrete. 

And Pakistan's ex-Foreign Minister Mr. Kasuri has acknowledged that Pakistan and India were very close to declaring Kashmir an autonomous region however change of govt stalled the procedure and Mumbai Incident finished all prospects of it ever happening.


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## mattoo

Dear Pakistani friends,

I'm a Kashmiri Pandit myself. Hindu and Kashmiri, roots in Baramulla. My father and my uncles all had to leave the valley and live in Pune because of the constant harassment and threats from militants and Hurriyat types. We still own land there and my ancestral house is still there.

If you want Kashmir to be part of Pakistan, then you will get people like me along with it. Give me some reasons -your sales pitch - as to why I should support Kashmir's accession to Pakistan. No airy fairy stuff. Real direct reasons as to how my life will be better as a Pakistani. What can you give me as a Kashmiri in terms of life, safety, opportunities etc.? 

You have my attention. I am ready to be convinced. Go on.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

TextMiner said:


> That's correct, i am currently in "Azad Kashmir" .



not according to your IP address 

is there something I should know?





> Absolutely, but sometimes we see the neighbouring country put them to an even better use like making them share the road along with Cars and Trucks.



before heading to the meat factory....


nexxxxxxxxt.


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## Areesh

anurag_singh said:


> There is difference between afghanistan and India. In worst case we can follow China model(Xingiyang, Tibet) easily but that is not democratic way. However that is our last resort to save territorial integrity.



We are not comparing you with Afghanistan, we are comparing you with Soviet Union and today's America and NATO. I know this is not your "value" but anyways we are using this analogy to burst your bubble that since you are huge in numbers you can always keep Kashmiris occupied.


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## deckingraj

To add to it ...i ahve asked this question on two different threads yet have not got any response, so far...Let me ask here as well

a) There have been lot of talks about plebiscite....Skeptic has brought up a good point about option for Independece of Kashmir, however irrespective of what are the options available to people of J&K i will like to know how in today's situation pelbiscite is possible???

Can we create conditions in which we are helding plebiscite and not being unfair to India, Pakistan and People of Kashmir??? Let me highlight the complexities and would appreciate if someone can share their thoughts

- Part of Kashmir acceeded to China by Pak. 
- Areas under Chinese Control after 62 war.
- Pakistani citizens living in P-O-K. How to identify them and send them back to Pak??
- Kashmiri Pandits living in exile
- Demilitarization of Kashmir - Complete pull back by Pak and minimum level by India
- Last but not the lease skewed demands by People of Jammu and Kashmir starting from
- Align with Pak
- Align with India
- Align with Nobody
- Align with India with more Autonomy
- Aling with Pakistan with more Autonomy

Looking at all this how wrong am i when i say as per ground reality Plebiscite is just wishful thinking....it is not possible in synch with the sentiments that it was proposed....Yes vested interests will keep the rhetoric on however saner people will try to shelve the plan and come with a practical and achievable solution...

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## Icarus

mattoo said:


> Dear Pakistani friends,
> 
> I'm a Kashmiri Pandit myself. Hindu and Kashmiri, roots in Baramulla. My father and my uncles all had to leave the valley and live in Pune because of the constant harassment and threats from militants and Hurriyat types. We still own land there and my ancestral house is still there.
> 
> If you want Kashmir to be part of Pakistan, then you will get people like me along with it. Give me some reasons -your sales pitch - as to why I should support Kashmir's accession to Pakistan. No airy fairy stuff. Real direct reasons as to how my life will be better as a Pakistani. What can you give me as a Kashmiri in terms of life, safety, opportunities etc.?
> 
> You have my attention. I am ready to be convinced. Go on.



Dear Friend, 
In short you will get nothing, because in reality we stand nothing to gain from this the only reason we have chosen to stick with Kashmir is because the people EXPECT us to. As long as the people are shouting slogans like:
"Kashmir banay ga Pakistan"
"Jeeway Jeeway Pakistan"
"Jan say piyara Pakistan" 
How can we turn a blind eye towards them ? I am personally tired of this conflict and wish it ends soon. I curse the Indian govt for not holding the plebiscite yet. They should just go ahead with it and get it over with. That way, we can bury the hatchet and move in a more positive direction without plotting for each other's destruction.

P.S. If Kashmir does become a part of Pakistan, the "Hurriyat Types" will probably stop pestering you. 

Wish you peace. 
Regards,


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## DesiGuy

it's a shame that India still is not able to take care of kashmir. look what china did to tibet and xinjiang. India adopt same policy. 

Invest in kashmir.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

ah....so it is about Kashmiri peoples too, not merely the lands?

We have a sane indian here! Red alert, red alert!


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## Skeptic

Kakgeta said:


> My friend I was as wrong as you were with the UN thing, since it was a recommendation and nothing concrete.
> 
> And Pakistan's ex-Foreign Minister Mr. Kasuri has acknowledged that Pakistan and India were very close to declaring Kashmir an autonomous region however change of govt stalled the procedure and Mumbai Incident finished all prospects of it ever happening.


No Sir, I always maintained a single view - UN resolution have no provisions for independent Kashmir. Infact the whole basis for the resolution was:


> Noting with satisfaction that both India and Pakistan desire that the question of the accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India or Pakistan should be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite,


And provision for:


> The Government of India should undertake that there will be established in Jammu and Kashmir a Plebiscite Administration to hold a Plebiscite as soon as possible on the question of the accession of the State to India or Pakistan . including, for that purpose only, the direction and supervision of the State forces and police



Also read other resolutions in follow-up to this one. Several objections were raised by either sides but never was option of independence ever suggested by Pakistan.

Also the Musharraf formula revolved around making the border porous and maintaining Indian and Pakistani Kashmir. I am not sure exact formula has ever been revealed - but it probability of it including provision for independence is questionable at best.

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## Icarus

deckingraj said:


> Can we create conditions in which we are helding plebiscite and not being unfair to India, Pakistan and People of Kashmir??? Let me highlight the complexities and would appreciate if someone can share their thoughts
> 
> - Part of Kashmir acceeded to China by Pak.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which part ? I remember Pakistan being given parts of Gilgit-Baltistan by China in the border talks after 62 war but not the other way around.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Pakistani citizens living in P-O-K. How to identify them and send them back to Pak??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Pakistanis do not have permission to buy/rent/lease any land/property or building in Kashmir, so that shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Kashmiri Pandits living in exile
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm sure they are not that large a number.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Demilitarization of Kashmir - Complete pull back by Pak and minimum level by India
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Quite possible if UN troops from neutral countries are stationed there.
Click to expand...


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## deckingraj

Kakgeta said:


> The only reason we don't go to an international forum to discuss freedom for Kashmir is because we are bound not to by the Simla Accord. Talks with India over freedom for kashmir have been initiated various times but ended without any thing of substance being agreed upon.



On the contrary Pakistan has always try to get international community to intervene for resolution of Kashmir.....



> Your last piece of information is incorrect, if such was the case then Gilgit-Baltistan would not have been a member of the Unrepresented nations Council.


I am sorry can you please shed more light on it...Based on my discussion with many seniors around here official stand of Pakistan is that Gilgit-Baltistan is not part of Jammu and Kashmir...There have been very very lengthy discussion in which Indian members tried to prove that Gilgil-Baltistan is also conflicted land and is part of Jammu and Kashmir....regarding your comment i will first like to understand the exact position before sharing thoughts....

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## Icarus

deckingraj said:


> On the contrary Pakistan has always try to get international community to intervene for resolution of Kashmir.....



We have called for intervention as in the recent rounds of violence in kashmir but that is far from discussing the matter on an international forum. 



> I am sorry can you please shed more light on it...Based on my discussion with many seniors around here official stand of Pakistan is that Gilgit-Baltistan is not part of Jammu and Kashmir...There have been very very lengthy discussion in which Indian members tried to prove that Gilgil-Baltistan is also conflicted land and is part of Jammu and Kashmir....regarding your comment i will first like to understand the exact position before sharing thoughts....



My pleasure, many people do not consider GB as a part of Azad Kashmir since the people there did not consider themselves such as well. They maintained that since they had secured freedom for themselves through rebellion against Maharaja Hari Singh and were not liberated by the Pathan tribes or the Army, they should be treated as a part of Pakistan even though the international community stated otherwise, it was for this very reason that last year, they were given the status of a Pakistani territory. Now, many bordering regions of GB had been Chinese governed till 62, however in a bid to build trust they listened to Pakistan and returned areas historically parts of GB back to GB.


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## justanobserver

> Which part ? I remember Pakistan being given parts of Gilgit-Baltistan by China in the border talks after 62 war but not the other way around.



The Trans-Karakoram Tract

In the 1950s Pakistan became concerned that Chinese maps showed areas of Pakistan in China. In 1961 Ayub Khan sent a formal Note to China, and a year later China proposed a provisional agreement, subject to final resolution of the Kashmir dispute. Negotiations resulted in an agreement signed on 2 March 1963. The agreement resulted in China withdrawing from about 750 sq m of territory, *and Pakistan abandoning its claim to about 2,050 sq m of territory*

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## TextMiner

Asim Aquil said:


> You have to really have your head buried under the ground to have missed the amount of statements against India.
> 
> The thing is, India has NEVER been criticized before. Not in the terms its being criticized now, as a tyrant, as brutal, as undemocratic and not with the frequency as it is now.
> 
> There is no gun fire against Indian security forces, its stones, kicks and slaps. India can't play the victim card any more.


Do you know why the West is mum over the current situation in Kashmir ? The current turmoil in Pakistan. The West thinks that by lending voice to Kashmiri self-determination will cause anarchy in yet another part of the world, and very soon we will see Kashmir turning into another FATA. And though we see Media reporting on Kashmir frequently crying hoarse (i would dare to say even the Western media) over Indian "brutality", no government in the West has come out openly to condemn this, since they believe that Indian democracy is a far better option to help Kashmiris in their cause of greater autonomy. Thus, the decision is with GoI and hence the ball is in GoI's court.


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## Donatello

Pasban said:


> *India deploys more troops in Kashmir*
> 
> _New Delhi has deployed hundreds of additional troops to Indian-administered Kashmir in a bid to quell deadly protests in the disputed Himalayan region.
> _
> 
> The deployment comes after troops once again fired on pro-independence protesters, killing two and injuring 16 on Friday.
> 
> Security forces say they had to resort force to disperse stone-throwing protesters in the central Budgam district, a Press TV correspondent reported.
> 
> Kashmir residents defied the curfew in Srinagar and other major towns, pelting security forces with stones.
> 
> Kashmiris say the curfew, which has been in place for six consecutive days, has prevented them from getting food and other necessities.
> 
> Top separatist leader, Seyyed Ali Geelani, has called on people to block Indian army camps with sit-in protests.
> 
> "I have urged people to stage peaceful sit-in protests in front of army and security force camps in Kashmir," Geelani told reporters in Srinagar on Thursday.
> 
> Since early June, violent street protests and crackdowns have left nearly 100 people dead.
> 
> New Delhi has been repeatedly criticized for resorting to force rather than finding a diplomatic solution to the issue.
> 
> Pakistan has accused India of "brutality" and condemned its deadly crackdown on protestors.
> 
> "Pakistan strongly condemns the brutality and the blatant use of force by Indian security forces," said Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi.
> 
> Both Islamabad and New Delhi claim the region in full, but rule over parts of it and have fought two wars over Kashmir.
> 
> JR/HGH/MMN
> 
> PressTV - India deploys more troops in Kashmir





This is really sad because India calls Kashmir it's part and then puts force onto these innocent people.

Compare Bombay, Bangalore, Kolkata with Srinagar and you'll know what i mean.


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## hahahaha

penumbra said:


> This is really sad because India calls Kashmir it's part and then puts force onto these innocent people.
> 
> Compare Bombay, Bangalore, Kolkata with Srinagar and you'll know what i mean.



People in these cities don't come on road and use non violence way of protesting.. They live in much more harmony and without infiltration from our dearest neighbour...

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## deckingraj

Kakgeta said:


> Which part ? I remember Pakistan being given parts of Gilgit-Baltistan by China in the border talks after 62 war but not the other way around.



Trans-Karakoram Tract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is a understanding b/w Pakistan and China, though not sure on what basis they signed it since Pakistan(as suggested by people here) does not consider Azad Kashmir as pakistan territory....Anyways India do not recognize this understanding, so in essence this land belongs to Jammu and Kashmit and plebiscite should include it, right???



> Pakistanis do not have permission to buy/rent/lease any land/property or building in Kashmir, so that shouldn't be a problem.


I must say i have a very different understanding....Can you please throw some more light on it??? I am under the impression that unlike Indians ordianry pakistan can settle in P-O-K....





> I'm sure they are not that large a number.


Yes, however we cannot ignore them, right??? I am sure you would like to include everybody for plebiscite, no???




> Quite possible if UN troops from neutral countries are stationed there.


What??? BUt was this promised when Nehru asked for plebiscite(it was Nehru's promise because of which Kashmir case if different from rest of India during partition)?? If not then why are we putting in more conditions now???


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## NWO

TextMiner said:


> And though we see Media reporting on Kashmir frequently crying hoarse (i would dare to say even the Western media) over Indian "brutality", no government in the West has come out openly to condemn this, since they believe that Indian democracy is a far better option to help Kashmiris in their cause of greater autonomy. Thus, the decision is with GoI and hence the ball is in GoI's court.


I agree that India has more leverage on the international stage, but that isn't due to any 'Indian democracy' or something similar. It's because Pakistan is viewed more of a terrorist country then India. 

As for the Kashmir issue, I never knew anyone who really gave damn about it here in US so I don't know how it's been 'internalized'.


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## deckingraj

Kakgeta said:


> We have called for intervention as in the recent rounds of violence in kashmir but that is far from discussing the matter on an international forum.



Sorry but you have raised this issue in various international forums with many appeals to US for intervention......Even now Kureshi has asked international community to step in....



> My pleasure, many people do not consider GB as a part of Azad Kashmir since the people there did not consider themselves such as well. They maintained that since they had secured freedom for themselves through rebellion against Maharaja Hari Singh and were not liberated by the Pathan tribes or the Army, they should be treated as a part of Pakistan even though the international community stated otherwise, it was for this very reason that last year, they were given the status of a Pakistani territory. Now, many bordering regions of GB had been Chinese governed till 62, however in a bid to build trust they listened to Pakistan and returned areas historically parts of GB back to GB.


Thanks for the explanation...So i am sure you would have held some plebiscite there to find out what actually the people of Gilgit and Baltistan wan't....Secondly did you consider what people of Kashmir think about it??? Since you yourself said that International community consider Gilgit Baltistan as part of Jammu and Kashmir so whenever plebiscite occur will it be fair to not consider GB as part of Kashmir???

Do you see how complex plebiscite would be to conduct???


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## FreekiN

You know the population of the people influenced by the pact, right?

It was 0.

That's why Pakistan was so reluctant to give it away and make a friend.

As for the "Pakistan supporting Independent Kashmir" part, what's wrong with that?


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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> You have to really have your head buried under the ground to have missed the amount of statements against India.
> 
> The thing is, India has NEVER been criticized before. Not in the terms its being criticized now, as a tyrant, as brutal, as undemocratic and not with the frequency as it is now.
> 
> There is no gun fire against Indian security forces, its stones, kicks and slaps. India can't play the victim card any more.



Asim

Looks like your news is coming in from a parallel universe. Even Pakistan made a tangible statement only yesterday. Get over it. No one's rattled by what's happening in Kashmir.. At least no one who matters. And you know why.. Because most of the parties that matter have accepted the fact that its India's internal matter.


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## Skeptic

FreekiN said:


> As for the "Pakistan supporting Independent Kashmir" part, what's wrong with that?



the wrong part is that it is a misnormer. There is actually no support for independent kashmir from pakistan while some pakistanis claim it to be there. 
They attempt to hold the moral high ground that we support the cause of freedom to lure kashmiris and score brownie points while it is never backed up by any action. Pls go thru the thread if u need further info.

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## Leonidas

Kakgeta said:


> Complete Independence is one of the options promised to the Kashmiris by the UN in the form of a plebiscite that Nehru promised would be held when "Conditions Normalize" however it seems that in India's book the situation has never "Normalized".



Sir, when was it given a chance to "normalize"? Right from the day one of pakistan coming into existence, jinnah started sending 'mujahids' into kashmir & since then, the condition of kashmir has been anything but normal. 
India has never abandoned the option of plebiscite, but it cannot let it happen when the neighbouring country is openly fueling insurgency, causing heavy casualties to the civilians and armed forces in the part of country which is officially ours (as per the accession treaty).
India, as promised by nehruji, is determined to solve the dispute as soon as the situation normalize which was evident during the musharraf era when it was said that the two countries were almost about to reach a settlement on kashmir and the reason, if I quote Najam Sethi ji, "Pakistan stopped supporting insurgency in J&K." Let the situation normalise and I don't see why not India-pak can decide on the future of kashmir as the kashmiris themselves want it to be. 



Kakgeta said:


> Pakistan has always supported the plebiscite



I guess that is why it tried to take over kashmir by force three times in 47, 65 & 99 and did not give the people of kashmir a chance to decide in a plebiscite which country they want to join..? 'Actions speak louder than words.'


Regards.


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## FreekiN

@skeptic 

Part Kashmiri myself and yes you are right. 

It's either go Pakistani or get independence. 

Anyways, I don't know if you believe in the surveys but there was no majority for an independent Kashmir anyways. But a 43% and 44% result cannot be simply ignored. And 74% and 95% on the Indian side of the Kashmir valley who DO favor independence cannot be ignored either. 

Jammu doesn't want independent Kashmir, but the valley surely does.


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## NWO

karan.1970 said:


> Because most of the parties that matter have accepted the fact that its India's internal matter.


I never knew that the people in the West really cared much about it. 

Plus, it's isn't that big right now; it's merely stick & stones. When they go for the guns, (if they go for the guns), then you should except it to go international.


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## Skeptic

FreekiN said:


> @skeptic
> 
> Part Kashmiri myself and yes you are right.
> 
> It's either go Pakistani or get independence.
> 
> Anyways, I don't know if you believe in the surveys but there was no majority for an independent Kashmir anyways. But a 43% and 44% result cannot be simply ignored. And 74% and 95% on the Indian side of the Kashmir valley who DO favor independence cannot be ignored either.
> 
> Jammu doesn't want independent Kashmir, but the valley surely does.



i think you did not get my point. I am trying to establish whether pakistan has ever supported independent kashmir. Or in simpler words - will independent kashmir be acceptable to pakistan?

If you claim yes - then please back your claim up with a single instance of pakistan officially mentioning / approving it.


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## Avatar

penumbra said:


> This is really sad because India calls Kashmir it's part and then puts force onto these innocent people.
> 
> Compare Bombay, Bangalore, Kolkata with Srinagar and you'll know what i mean.



If Bombay, Bangalore or Kolkata were to be in your immediate neighbourhood, I doubt things would be any better.

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## EjazR

penumbra said:


> This is really sad because India calls Kashmir it's part and then puts force onto these innocent people.
> 
> Compare Bombay, Bangalore, Kolkata with Srinagar and you'll know what i mean.



Force is put on the street only when there are violent mobs. Many also get killed. For example 70+ Gujjars were shot dead last year when they started protesting for reservations. In 2008 300+ UP residents were shot dead in different protests. 

So dont be under the impression that only Kashmir isaffected. Crowd policing is a nation wide issue in India.

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## arihant

I think more people would have died in the clash in other states than Jammu and Kashmir but because J&K is highlighted in Media, we see such news more in No. 

I think lot of people were killed by security official on using violent method for wage increase, reservation, land rates, etc.


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## TextMiner

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> not according to your IP address
> 
> is there something I should know?


So, where does my IP Address point to ?



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> before heading to the meat factory....


It doesn't matter to me where are they headed ; I just hope for the sake of your countrymen, the TTP don't make 'em swallow C-4s and then do a Bovine-shahadat in the next public corner they head to, while people around scream




.


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## bandit

FreekiN said:


> @skeptic
> 
> Part Kashmiri myself and yes you are right.
> 
> *It's either go Pakistani or get independence. *
> 
> .



unfortunately the Pakistani Government disagrees with you and says that Kashmir cannot become an independent entity. It has to go with either India or Pakistan. It agreed to that in the much touted UN resolutions. You can check up on that.

Here you go...



> Independence option
> 
> But there was a split between those demanding a plebiscite in order to determine allegiance to either India or Pakistan and those who stated that a third option should be added: Independence.
> 
> 
> 
> Ladakhis do not want to join Pakistan
> 
> Pakistan has consistently called for the issue to be resolved by means of a plebiscite and has blamed India for reneging on its pledge.
> But although it supports the Kashmiris "right of self-determination," Pakistan has never accepted the third option as a possible outcome.


Link

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## EjazR

*Curfew relaxed for four hours in parts of Srinagar - India - DNA*

Curfew was relaxed for four hours in southern and eastern parts of Srinagar city today, providing much-needed relief to the people in these areas after six days.

The curfew has been relaxed in south and east zones of the city from 12 noon to 4 pm, a police spokesman said.

However, there will be no relaxation in Maisuma and Kralkhud police station areas falling in the east zone.

The spokesman said curfew will be relaxed in other parts of the city after assessing the law and order situation in those areas.

Curfew was imposed in Srinagar on Sunday following violent protests and incidents of arson on the day of Eid-ul-Fitr.


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## Icarus

deckingraj said:


> Trans-Karakoram Tract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> There is a understanding b/w Pakistan and China, though not sure on what basis they signed it since Pakistan(as suggested by people here) does not consider Azad Kashmir as pakistan territory....Anyways India do not recognize this understanding, so in essence this land belongs to Jammu and Kashmit and plebiscite should include it, right???



That was Chinese territory that Pakistan laid claim to, China returned some of the area and retained the rest. That's what border talks are all about aren't they ? You can never hope to secure all the land you want. And the areas should certainly be included in the plebiscite. 



> I must say i have a very different understanding....Can you please throw some more light on it??? I am under the impression that unlike Indians ordianry pakistan can settle in P-O-K....



Incorrect, in fact ordinary Pakistanis are not even allowed to travel into Kashmir other than the cities of Muzaffarabad and Mirpur(both cities away from the border, to avoid border crossings). You need special permission to travel deeper into kashmir and only two authorities can allow that permission. The Army and the AJ&K Govt.
Similarly Pakistanis cannot settle or buy land in Azad Kashmir otherwise I would have most certainly bought some land and made a nice house there on a beautiful hillside back in 2002. 



> Yes, however we cannot ignore them, right??? I am sure you would like to include everybody for plebiscite, no???



Those who chose to leave, left at their own will. So they may or may not choose to take part in the plebiscite. 


> What??? BUt was this promised when Nehru asked for plebiscite(it was Nehru's promise because of which Kashmir case if different from rest of India during partition)?? If not then why are we putting in more conditions now???



This was one of the recommendations presented by the UN for holding plebiscite in J&K. It is not an added condition.


----------



## Icarus

deckingraj said:


> Sorry but you have raised this issue in various international forums with many appeals to US for intervention......Even now Kureshi has asked international community to step in....



Intervention to stop the fighting in Kashmir, we are in noway asking for international community to put diplomatic pressure on India to free Kashmir.



> Thanks for the explanation...So i am sure you would have held some plebiscite there to find out what actually the people of Gilgit and Baltistan wan't....Secondly did you consider what people of Kashmir think about it??? Since you yourself said that International community consider Gilgit Baltistan as part of Jammu and Kashmir so whenever plebiscite occur will it be fair to not consider GB as part of Kashmir???



A referendum was held and we acknowledge that according to the UN GB is still a disputed region and the region will be available for plebiscite whenever the time is right.



> Do you see how complex plebiscite would be to conduct???



Nothing is impossible !


----------



## Icarus

Leonidas said:


> Sir, when was it given a chance to "normalize"? Right from the day one of pakistan coming into existence, jinnah started sending 'mujahids' into kashmir & since then, the condition of kashmir has been anything but normal.
> India has never abandoned the option of plebiscite, but it cannot let it happen when the neighbouring country is openly fueling insurgency, causing heavy casualties to the civilians and armed forces in the part of country which is officially ours (as per the accession treaty).
> India, as promised by nehruji, is determined to solve the dispute as soon as the situation normalize which was evident during the musharraf era when it was said that the two countries were almost about to reach a settlement on kashmir and the reason, if I quote Najam Sethi ji, "Pakistan stopped supporting insurgency in J&K." Let the situation normalise and I don't see why not India-pak can decide on the future of kashmir as the kashmiris themselves want it to be.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess that is why it tried to take over kashmir by force three times in 47, 65 & 99 and did not give the people of kashmir a chance to decide in a plebiscite which country they want to join..? 'Actions speak louder than words.'
> 
> 
> Regards.



Border crossings in Kashmir can never be stopped if India keeps the AFSPA in effect. The Azad Kashmiris see their brethren being killed and they obviously are enraged by what they see and so they act. During the Musharraf era, Kashmir was peaceful and therefore infiltration was also at a minimum. 
BTW, in 47 Pakistan sent forces after Indian troops intervened to squash a Civil Uprising. 
65, I admit was Pakistan's fault.
99, please do not take it out of context it was only about kargil, never about kashmir.


----------



## EjazR

*Ground situation in Kashmir critical: A civil society team report | TwoCircles.net*

New Delhi: A high-level delegation of civil society comprising eminent personalities including Swami Agnivesh, Admiral L. Ramdas, Ms. Mohini Giri, Fr. Dominic Emmanuel and Dr. Mazher Hussain visited Kashmir Valley from 30th August to 2nd September 2010. They found the situation on the ground to be very critical and tragic.

The delegation, facilitated by COVA (Confederation of Voluntary Associations), in its report said it found the situation to be critical and tragic and also gained some startling understanding of the scenario. It is clear that the situation precipitated and aggravated in the immediate context due to insensitivity and administrative failures, the report says.

The delegation of eminent personalities has recommended an independent inquiry into all the killings in Kashmir starting from the fake encounter in Macchil (Kupwara) in April 2010, withdrawal of AFSPA (Armed Forces Special Powers Act) and Cases booked against the protesters and release of all political prisoners.

*Text of the Report:*

A Delegation of Civil Society comprising Swami Agnivesh, Admiral L. Ramdas, Ms. Mohini Giri, Fr. Dominic Emmanuel and Dr. Mazher Hussain visited Kashmir Valley from 30th August to 2nd September 2010. The objective of the visit was to gain first hand knowledge of the prevailing ground situation in the Kashmir and to commiserate with the people for their suffering and loss of life. The Delegation found the situation to be critical and tragic and also gained some startling understanding of the scenario. It is clear that the situation precipitated and aggravated in the immediate context due to insensitivity and administrative failures. A Report of the visit of the Delegation is attached.

A Delegation of Civil Society comprising Swami Agnivesh, Admiral L. Ramdas, Ms. Mohini Giri, Fr. Dominic Emmanuel and Dr. Mazher Hussain visited Kashmir Valley from 30th August to 2nd September 2010. The objective of the visit was to gain first hand knowledge of the prevailing ground situation in the valley and to commiserate with the people of Kashmir for their suffering and loss of life. Over 65 youth and children have lost their lives in the past three months, besides many hundreds have been injured. The team visited the homes of some families to share our concern and condole with them.

The persistent curfews and strikes, coupled with the heavy deployment of security forces have forced the women folk to stay back home  completely caged-and they are the worst sufferers. It is imperative that special measures are required for their security and wellbeing.

*Meetings*

The delegation met a cross section of people including the injured in the hospital,, families of victims, youth, separatist leaders, mainstream political parties, doctors, advocates, academicians, businessmen, religious leaders, members of civil society, journalists and ministers of the state government.

Some of the prominent people with whom the delegation interacted were the Governor of Jammu & Kashmir, Mufti Mohammad Sayeed Former Chief Minister of J&K, Syed Shah Geelani of the Huriat (G), Mirwaiz Omar Farooq Huriat (M), Yaseen Malik JKLF, Maulana Shaukat of Jamat E Ahle Hadis, and Mr. Yousuf Tarigami M.L.A. From the government the delegation met Mr. Rathar(Finance Minister), Mr Sagar (Law Minister), Mr Taj Mohidin (Uri)

*Observations*

 The situation in the Kashmir Valley is both critical and tragic. For over 80 days now, there has been curfew and hartals causing untold hardships and misery to the people at large.

 64 people, mostly teenagers, have been killed in firing by the police and paramilitary forces and hundreds have been injured. During the visit to the SKIMS hospital in Srinagar, the delegation saw that some of the injured had head injuries and two were in a comatose condition. The Delegation also met two women- one in her sixties and one in her twenties who were injured in firing.

* The Delegation wishes to place on record that the conditions at the hospital were clean and the doctors and staff appeared dedicated. That the injured are being treated free of charge is appreciated. (Comment-Free of charge treatment provided by the government)*

 The Delegation also visited the homes of two teenagers Mr. Omar Qayoom Bhatt and Tufail Mattoo (both 17 years) who had died to pay condolences to their families. It is reported that Omar was picked up by the police and tortured brutally for 36 hours that led to his death within three days of his release from custody. Tufail Mattoo was killed when a tear gas shell was fired at his head that brought his brains out. It is reported that he was killed while walking back from his classes- his school bag on his shoulders.

 Many such instances are cited of innocent people  especially youth and children being fired at  including the one in Anantnag where an 8 year old child who was being taken to a hospital by his mother for treatment was killed when a bullet pierced his head. One the very day the delegation reached Srinagar, 4 teenagers playing caroms in Miasoma area of Srinagar were fired at by the police and injured. One of them is very critical and has very little chances of survival.

 Every one bitterly complained about the total insensitivity of the establishment as well as the people and the media in India to the tragic happenings in Kashmir. Their main lament was against the Prime Minister of India who they said waited for two months and 60 deaths to express his concern. Some contended that India is interested only in the picnic spots of Kashmir and not in its people.

 Every one that the Delegation met is outraged by the fact that the security forces have been indulging in indiscriminate firing even on peaceful protests. The Delegation time and again agreed with the people and emphasized the point that in a democracy people have the freedom and should be given that freedom to express their views in a peaceful way. They should have the aazadi to shout pro-aazadi slogans on the streets and no police should open fire on them. This is what is meant by democracy.

 Even in instances when some youth are indulging in stone pelting, the answer cannot be firing to kill. Such direct resort to lethal force instead of acceptable crowd control measures has transported the entire population of Kashmir from alienation to extreme anger. Every killing by the security forces is adding to the anger and bringing out more protesters- thereby adding to the spiral of violence.

 The Ministers with whom the Delegation interacted stated that it is a matter of shame for them also when all these killings of their own people are taking place. One Minister said that he had expressed himself against the killings on a national television channel. Even the Governor said that a few mistakes were made and that things could have been controlled in the initial stages.

 *It seems necessary to investigate all the cases of killings and injuries during these past months to determine all instances of unnecessary use of force and punish the guilty in the cause of justice and to win back the trust and confidence of the people.*

 Presently, neither the administration nor the security forces seem to be acting in any accountable manner. Such unaccountable and undemocratic actions of the administration and the forces appear possible because of Laws like the AFSPA, Disturbed Areas Act and PSA that are in force in the State of J& K. There is an urgent need to repeal all such laws immediately to bring back democratic and accountable governance that would be in the interest of and for the people.

 Many people expressed outrage at the allegations that the ongoing unrest is sponsored by Pakistan or fuelled by some militant groups and found it insulting. The fact that thousands are coming on the streets and for months discredits the contention that the disturbances are sponsored or engineered by some one.

 The common contention is that this is the result of 63 years of repression and the mind set of the youth who were born during the past 20 years of militancy and have experienced nothing but turmoil and conflict. All of them expressed how they were tired of seeing the army and police all around. The seniors mentioned that while they had taken the presence of the army and police for granted and tolerated it but that is not how it was going to be with the new growing up generation. The youth resent it and that is why times in future are going to be worse than what we see now.

 It is these youth who are engaging in stone pelting and even defying all the leaders of the movement. A leader like Mr. Syed Ali Shah Geelani had to modify his remarks about stone pelting when the youth rebelled against his advisory to remain peaceful. Elders are apprehensive that if the aspirations of these youth are not addressed seriously, some of them may leave the stones to take up guns leading to another round of a bloodbath that will not be in the interest of any one.

 The Delegation is amazed to note that the degree and intensity of anger is cutting across age, class and gender. Every one- from a 14 year old child to a 75 year old elder, a man on the street or a professional, men and women are expressing the same sentiments and speaking in the same voice. The general echo was that it has to be a Do or Die effort this time around

 Every one complained of being ill treated and insulted by the security forces that could also end up in beatings. That the very large presence of the armed forces and frequent curfews has transformed the entire society into an open jail. Azaadi has become the predominant slogan along with demands for total withdrawal of gun from the State, restoration of their respect and honour as a people and expression of extreme distrust of the Indian State.

 Most people blamed the Indian state for the prevailing conditions and accused the Indian state of being insincere and non serious about the Kashmir issue. They contend that there are many instances where the Indian Government offered to engage in dialogue but withdrew half way thereby damaging the credibility of the people who had accepted the offer and proceeded to negotiate. It was pointed out by Mr. Geelani that since 1948 more than 130 initiatives for dialogue were started but abandoned with out reaching any results and there by discrediting the institution of dialogue itself. Mr. Mirwaiz said that the Indian government, instead of having dialogue to solve the problem in Kashmir was talking through the barrel of the gun.

 Unlike in the rest of the country, most people in Kashmir are well informed of the historical contexts and contend that the accession of the State of Jammu & Kashmir to the Indian Union was as per certain conditions and want that agreement to be respected and restored. Many assert that they are not demanding autonomy but the restoration of autonomy that was theirs as per the instrument of accession.

 Many people were categorical that the issue of Jammu & Kashmir is a political issue and not to be confused with being economic or even that of human rights even though righst violations are gross and rampant. They found it demeaning that the Government of India has come out with economic packages and offers of creation of more jobs when what is required and wanted is a political solution.

 On the other hand, induction of more and more armed forces can only exacerbate the problem and never be the solution. The sooner this is realized, the better it will be for every one.

 Many people expressed themselves against the silence of the civil society in India as a whole on the Kashmir situation and felt disappointed about its role and efficacy in addressing the issue. Many reiterated that the civil society should build up public opinion all over the country so that the Kashmir issue could be resolved.

 The Delegation noted that while every on spoke of Azaadi, there did not seem to be much clarity or consensus about the meaning of Azaadi. It varied from withdrawal of the gun to autonomy of the state to independence from the Indian state.* But non mentioned about merging with Pakistan.*

 *Even Mr. Geelani, who had always maintained the position of merger with Pakistan issued a statement during the visit of the Delegation talking about the possibility of Kashmir as an independent country like Switzerland *and also came out with five conditions as a precursor for the initiation of the dialogue process. A big step forward as he had been the one who had been engaged in rejectionist politics and consistently refused to engage in dialogue with the Indian state.

 *The Delegation noted that most people in the Kashmir valley that it interacted with were focused mostly on the Kashmir region and the issues of Jammu and Leh- Ladakh were left out from all discussions. *Any holistic and proper solution to the issue will have to take into consideration the interests of all the regions of the state and this will be one of the main challenges for any attempt that could provide a meaningful, lasting and just solution.

 The Delegation is also pained by the fact that the all schools, colleges and institutions of learning are now closed for nearly three months and students are suffering. There were no takers for the appeal by Delegation for allowing institutions of learning to function as it was contended that allowing schools and colleges to function would be a setback for the agitation.

 Now it is for the Government of India to provide the required confidence building measures (CBMs) and initiate a process of engagement and dialogue for a just and lasting political solution for the entire state of Jammu & Kashmir.

*Recommendations*

The Delegation makes the following recommendations that could act as confidence building measures and facilitate the emergence of a lasting solution:

1. There should be an independent inquiry into all the killings in Kashmir starting from the fake encounter in Macchil (Kupwara) in April 2010.

2. All political prisoners should be released immediately.

3. Cases booked against the protesters should be withdrawn. In many instances, cases of attempt to murder were booked against people including teenagers for stone pelting.

4. AFSPA (Armed Forces Special Powers Act), the Disturbed Areas Act and PSA (Public Safety Act) should be withdrawn immediately.

5. The army and paramilitary forces should be removed from the cities and civilian areas.

6. Space for peaceful protest should be provided. Use of firing should be stopped. Crowd control management should be done in accordance with non-lethal measures.

7. Violence in all forms should cease immediately by all concerned.

8. An all Party Parliamentary delegation should visit Kashmir immediately to reach out to the people and start the process of reconciliation and engagement.

9. A consistent and uninterrupted process of dialogue should be initiated for a solution to the Jammu & Kashmir issue that is festering for over 60 years.

COVA (Confederation of Voluntary Associations) initiated the process for the visit of the delegation and local coordination and felicitation was provided by Mr. Mohd. Shafi Pandit, former civil servant, Mr. Zafar Meraj and Mr. Shujaat Bukhari, journalists and Mr. Shakeel Qalander, President, Federation of Industries.


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## GUNNER

*SRINAGAR, India, Sept 18, 2010 (AFP)* - Police fired on fresh anti-India demonstrations in Kashmir on Saturday, killing at least one and *bringing the number of civilian deaths in an unprecedented wave of unrest to 100*.

The protester was killed in Anantnag town when police shot at demonstrators who were hurling stones, after authorities retrieved the body of a man who drowned earlier in the week when police allegedly chased him into a river.

"Security forces had to open fire to quell the violent demonstration," a police officer told AFP from Anantnag, south of Srinagar, summer capital of Kashmir where a two-decade revolt has been under way against New Delhi's rule.

Government forces have been battling for months to quell angry pro-independence demonstrations in the mainly Muslim region that were ignited by the police killing of a 17-year-old student on June 11.

Thousands spilled onto the streets Saturday in a fresh outpouring of public anger, *including woman and children* who defied a rigid indefinite curfew brought in across the region to try to contain the unrest.

In Srinagar, protesters spilled into the streets shouting, "We want freedom!" after officials reported another young protester died in hospital Saturday after being hurt earlier in the week by police firing.

So far, 100 protesters and bystanders, including children, have been killed since June according to an AFP tally, mostly by security forces firing on demonstrators who were pelting them with stones, chunks of wood and concrete.

One policeman has also died.

On Friday the London-based human rights group Amnesty International called on Indian authorities to order security forces not to use firearms against demonstrators.

*"There is an urgent need for the government to act" to prevent more deaths,* Amnesty said in a statement.

"Security forces should use the minimum force necessary to defend themselves," Amnesty said.

The government is sending a 35-member all-party delegation to Kashmir on Monday to seek a way out of the cycle of violence, Indian media reported.


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## bandit

> BTW, in 47 Pakistan sent forces after Indian troops intervened to squash a Civil Uprising.



Out of curiosity...where did you learn that...because that is false.



> In October 1947, Pashtun tribesmen from Pakistan's North-West Frontier Province invaded Kashmir.
> 
> There had been persistent reports of communal violence against Muslims in the state and, supported by the Pakistani Government, they were eager to precipitate its accession to Pakistan.
> 
> Mountbatten favoured Kashmir's temporary accession to India
> Troubled by the increasing deterioration in law and order and by earlier raids, culminating in the invasion of the tribesmen, the ruler, Maharaja Hari Singh, requested armed assistance from India.



Please dont lie to support your"moral high ground". Whatever has been taught in your twisted curriculum is a lie.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1762146.stm


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## Valiant_Soul

DGMO said:


> Appreciate the positive words bro, don't worry, there are many like me, just hope more made a splash on this forum. Too many patriotic (or idiotic, whichever way you look at it!) people get clouded in their sentiments.
> 
> If you approach an angle as take take take, refusing to look at the situation from the opposing perspective, then how can one expect progress? My experience tells me that those Pakistani's that are living abroad, are more passionate about this issue than the common man back in Pakistan!
> 
> Yet you speak to these people like I do in the UK, and they know nothing about the dynamics of Kashmir, the different stakeholders, the views from India's perspective, who Syed Salahuddin is, who Geelani is, what article 370 is, what autonomy means, the history, our failings etc etc. It's constant 'Kashmir banega Pakistan'.
> 
> If you're going to be blinded by your patriotism, and blind hatred of India, then you need to be educated about this complex matter we have on our hands - and start to accept reality.
> 
> Reality is that we can find a solution, place our hatred behind us and prosper not in isolation, but together. Unfortunately, Pakistani's do allow their emotions to get the better of them, and that leads to poor decision making.
> 
> We care more about the Palestinians for example than the Arabs themselves. Why? It seems we needs a bogeyman to blame and to act as an outlet for our own frustrations, whether it's India or Israel. It never ceases to amaze me.
> 
> As patriotic as I am, and I love my country to bits, there is no reason why we as neighbours (whether it is in the sub-continent, or here in the UK) can't get along. If Bopanna and Qureshi are setting the benchmark, then we need to follow in that direction. Believe me, it can be done.



As much as I have seen, I have mostly found the Non-resident Pakistanis being more sensible and balanced in their approach. Is it the education, is it the openness of their new society, or is it their own vision that makes them look apart, in a better way, than their countrymen? 

Anyways, just hope more of your compatriots develop sanity and stop seeing India as their enemy. I have tried to convince some of them otherwise. But then they bring in Junagadh, Hyderbad and Kashmir, etc, blind themselves with emotional chauvinism and then just stop their mind from envisioning the future and become captives of their past. They feel to see the enormity of betterment that can be brought about in the region by cooperation and friendliness between the two nations.

I have noticed that the case of Muslim brotherhood is also something that drives them to such extremes. No harm with such feelings, but why not extend this concept to humanity brotherhood? But, most of the time, "Muslim brotherhood" also becomes selective; just an emotional tool to bash whom they want to bash.

Let's just hope, more and more people like you make effort and try to make their countrymen see the better vision of life, and do not fall trap to emotional entanglements brought about by various self-serving activities of individuals or groups.

Kudos to your liberal thinking and ripe sensibility!


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## EjazR

*In Kashmir, it is recklessness at its worst (Comment)*

It is very easy -- indeed it has become fashionable -- to denounce security forces for the unending violence in Kashmir Valley. Sadly, it is not the full story.

*Of course, the security forces have done what they should not. They have fired and killed people taking part in demonstrations. I doubt if they would have acted similarly had the protests taken place in Mumbai.*

But that is only one side of the story. As Kashmiris express anguish over their fate, it is equally important to know the other side.

*Take Eid day, for example. That was one day when there was no provocation by the security forces; yet unprecedented violence took place. There is no doubt in the minds of many ordinary Kashmiris that the mayhem of that holy day was planned by those who style themselves as Kashmiri leaders.*

*Knowing that police may not open fire because of widespread criticism, more than 400 youths riding motorcycles gathered at the historic Lal Chowk in Srinagar to hoist green flags atop the clock tower. Apart from other things, they destroyed a small park there. In no time, it was proved how conveniently separatists can convert a religious gathering into a frenzied mob.*

The day provided an opportunity to Miwaiz Omar Farooq, the so-called moderate, to prove that he stands second to none in popularity. For three months, hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani has been calling the shots.

Despite all the arson that day, security forces fired mainly in the air. But the 'peaceful protestors' attacked police and paramilitary camps!

On their part, the police and even the Central Reserve Police Force, which does not enjoy the kind of awe the Border Security Force did, maintained restraint to avoid civilian killings.

No one talks about the ordinary Kashmiris' crippled lives, about closed schools and colleges, huge business losses, and paralysed banks and public transport.

In a desperate bid to force India to accept Kashmir as an international dispute, Geelani and his men have been issuing 'protest calendars' for the last three months. Congress and National Conference leaders have been left issuing media statements. None of their leaders has mustered the courage to mix with those who voted them to power in 2008.

Pursuing their single point agenda to somehow dislodge Omar Abdullah, the People's Democratic Party (PDP) is acting like the mouthpiece of the separatists. They have no guts to challenge the separatists who are playing havoc with their children's education, the valley's economy and the plight of the thousands of daily wage earners.

According to a recent survey, businessmen in the valley have suffered losses of around Rs.21,000 crore ($4.5 billion) in the last three months. Interestingly, businessmen in Jammu say they have also suffered losses of Rs.7,100 crore ($1.5 billion) because of snapped trade links with Srinagar.

Police stations, paramilitary camps, public property and homes of mainstream political activists have been torched.

The valley is passing through anarchy where young boys aged hardly more than 12 years stop vehicles and check the identity cards of the occupants and to spot out policemen.

A head constable was recently dragged out of his vehicle in the Ompora area of Srinagar and beaten mercilessly. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has come under pressure to repeal the Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act, release separatists and stone-pelters, compensate those injured and killed in the violence, and withdraw security forces from urban areas.

But it can be safely stated that none of these measures, however welcome they may be, will usher in peace in the valley.

*Because that is not the agenda of the separatists. The peace they ask for is a peace that will be blessed by Pakistan.*

*For Kashmiri Muslim Sufis like us, that is unacceptable. As a government officer here said: 'Give them your hand, and they will demand your head.'*

(The author is a businessman from Srinagar. He does not want his name to be revealed for fear of reprisal.)

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Valiant_Soul

Gives an unbiased account of the situation currently in the valley. 

And clearly, he means to imply that the separatists are the root of the troubles in that region.


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## A.Muqeet khan

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has come under pressure to repeal the Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act, release separatists and stone-pelters, compensate those injured and killed in the violence, and withdraw security forces from urban areas.


But it can be safely stated that none of these measures, however welcome they may be, will usher in peace in the valley.
well lets try that before we come to conclusion shall we


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## Moorkh

^^^^^ i agree

if the govt gives in, there will be still more demands. the AFSPA and the CRPF are in place because of a reason. the reason is the bad security situation in J&K. once the security situation improves the AFSPA can be repealed. but the way things are going, i dont think the protesters are going to let that happen. ironic isnt it.


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## Isaq Khan

*The chaos in kashmir is due to Rahul Gandhi because *he is foolish to think that youth leadership is the only solution that too the youth from the family of rulers.

Because of his friendship he has given the free run to Omar Abdullah and as the national conference govt. is in a partnership with congress, congress should also get a chance to field a CM for 3 years rotation as the last time when PDP ruled as CM Mufti and congress have gulaam nabi azad for 3 years.

Omar is lacking in the leadership qualities, vision and maturity.

Also, he and his admin are ridiculing security forces and allowing hardliners who were in the sidelines to take center stage.

*As the above news talk about Eid incident at lal chowk, mirwaiz omer farooq have provoked crowd gathered for Eid namaz to protest at Lal chowck. 

And CM Omar Abdullah have withdrawn whole forces police and CRPF and have given free run to 5,000 crowd for arson and riot.*


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## greatsequence

No source. No author. Speculation at best.


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## prototype

They were testing Indian resilience on that particular day,Kashmiris have access to some rights to which even the rest dont have,they were specific reservation for Kashmiris in all educational Institutions across India,in all states,job reservation,and that to they r getting since our independence,extract the maximum benefit from India tax payers money and then cry about their hatred for India


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## Areesh

greatsequence said:


> No source. No author. Speculation at best.



You were expecting something good. 

If you do, than don't do it in the matter of IOK.


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> *And the point I am making is that post 1987, fresh from success in Afghanistan, Pakistan stated promoting insurgency in J&K. From that time down, the things have settled down quite a bit as is visible from the data posted.*
> 
> On illegitimate occupation, its an oft repeated but zero value chant. Looks good in rallies organized by likes of Hafiz Saeed and ignorant protesters in Kashmir valley, but has no significance on the ground.



As I said it isn't going to bring any change. The IOK is burning and it will till it gets freedom from the foreigners. As far as militancy is concerned it can rise against easily with all the ingredients for it are present in IOK. As far as about illegitimate occupation Kashmir doesn't belong to India in the first place, so it is obvious it is an illegitimate occupation. An occupation which is bound to end even at any cost.


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## GUNNER

*SRINAGAR, India, Sept 18, 2010 (AFP)* - Indian-administered Kashmir's top separatist said Saturday he has called off planned sit-in protests outside police and army camps fearing that some "miscreants" might sabotage the plan.

Syed Ali Geelani had called for locals to assemble peacefully in front of security force camps next Tuesday and shout slogans such as: "Go India, Go Back!"

But he cancelled the demonstrations "to prevent miscreants from sabotaging the peaceful programme," he said in a statement.

He said the decision was taken in view of "conspiracies being hatched by miscreants to get the people killed and malign the overall movement."

"People should now hold protests in their respective district headquarters," Geelani said.

The decision came after Indian police shot dead three more protesters in Kashmir on Saturday as crowds defied curfews to pelt security forces with stones in the latest unrest in the Himalayan region.

A total of 102 people have died since anti-India protests erupted in June, according to an AFP tally, with 17 killed on Monday in the worst civilian violence in the Muslim-majority region since an armed revolt began two decades ago.

The sit-ins would have been the first of their kind in the wave of rolling demonstrations sweeping the region and would have posed a new challenge to security forces as they struggle to restore order.

Despite being placed under house arrest by Indian authorities, Geelani, 81, has emerged as the chief organiser of the protests.

The nearly daily popular protests are the biggest since the armed revolt against Indian rule erupted in Kashmir in 1989 and are testing India's sovereignty over the region.


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## indopak

*Indians are mostly bewildered by the fervour of Kashmiri separatists *
Vir Sanghvi 

I dont know about you but I feel a deep weariness and a mounting frustration when I see the position of Kashmiri separatists described again and again in the media and in the foreign press in particular.

By now, most Indians know the separatist position by heart: the accession of Kashmir in 1947 was dubious; for many years Kashmiri elections were rigged; Kashmir is a Muslim majority state in Hindu India; the army subjects the Valley to a reign of terror; and that normal life in Kashmir is impossible because of the constant military presence.

Integral to this position is a caricature of how Indians feel about Kashmir. We are apparently, a Hindu-majority state that is determined to hang on by force to Kashmir. Even though the Kashmiris have democratic aspirations, we deny them the right to act on those aspirations and have turned Kashmir into an occupied territory, its hapless citizens kept in check by frequent use of military brutality.

Over the last few years, this frequently articulated position has begun to annoy me not just because it is untrue but because it describes an India that I do not recognise and ascribes views to Indians that I know we do not hold.

In my experience, the attitude of Indians towards Kashmir and the Kashmiri people is not an imperialistic, colonialist and militaristic arrogance. Nor is it guided by Hindu chauvinism or a hatred of Muslims. 

In fact, the overwhelming emotion when it comes to our understanding of Kashmir is one of pure bemusement. 

The vast majority of Indians are bewildered by the Kashmir problem and the demands of Kashmiri militants. Far from being arrogant, we are actually astonished. Why do the Kashmiris hate us so much? What harm have we ever done them? And what is it that they want from us?

There is one part of the separatist position that we understand. We recognise that it must be hell to live with a constant military presence in a state where citizens are subject to random police checks and where curfew is a regular occurrence. Though few of us say this openly very often, most of us are intensely embarrassed by the stories of human rights abuses and the allegations about the use of excessive force by soldiers.

Some of these allegations may be fabricated. But equally, some of them must be true. And for every human rights abuse, every Indian must hang his head in shame. This is not the Indian way. And this is not what our country is about.

But equally, most of us would argue that the military presence is a response to a violent insurrection against the Indian state. Till 1989, Kashmir did not have such a strong military presence. The army went in only after the violence increased, after key leaders were assassinated, after kidnappings became a regular occurrence, after jihadis thronged to Kashmir from across the border and after arson became an acceptable form of political protest. 

Violence begets violence. If you declare war on the Indian state, the state is not going to roll over and let you tickle its stomach. It is obliged to fight back and to assert both its authority and the rule of law. 

Most Indians would love to see the army withdrawn from Kashmir. Indian soldiers have no particular desire to lay their lives on the line and India has many other uses for the hundreds of crores we spend on police in Kashmir. But each time we talk of reducing the army presence or of amending AFSPA, the violence actually seems to increase. There is no evidence that a reduction in the military presence will be greeted by a similar reduction in the level of militant violence.
Besides, even if the army were withdrawn and there was no state violence in Kashmir, would the separatists change their stance? Would they say that they now accept Indian sovereignty? 

I dont think so. The army presence is unfortunate. But it is not the core issue. 

From our perspective, the secessionist sentiment in Kashmir is bewildering because (except for the army presence) the average Kashmiri has the same deal as every other Indian except perhaps that the Indian state spends more money on him. Per capita expenditure on each Kashmiri is vastly greater than Delhis per capita expenditure on, say, the average Bihari. 

Further, we argue, Kashmiris have the same democratic rights as other Indians. Even if you accept that elections were rigged in the past, that has not been true for several years. The PDP government was legitimately elected and so is the current National Conference regime. Moreover, Kashmiris have many rights (through Article 370) that Indians who reside in other parts of the country do not have. 

We accept that because of the circumstances of Kashmirs accession, there may have been separatist sentiment in the years following 1947. Certainly, we have faced secessionist movements in many parts of India  Tamil Nadu, Nagaland, Punjab, etc.  but in every case we have managed to fulfil the aspirations of the people and quell the separatist sentiment. But what is it about Kashmir that despite our best efforts, this generation of Kashmiris, born many years after 1947, continues to demand secession? 

More mystifying for us is that we do not know what the Kashmiris want. There is no doubt that many of their leaders take money from Pakistan and certainly, there are many pro-Pakistani Kashmiris. But who in his right mind would want union with todays troubled Pakistan? Who wouldnt prefer Indias success story to the Pakistani saga of national collapse? 

Nor does Pakistan have any record of treating its non-Punjabi minorities well. Bangladesh seceded after the Pakistani army launched a genocide. The Baluchs were massacred by the same army. And *** is hardly a shining advertisement for the virtues of Pakistani citizenship.

Some Kashmiris say they want independence from both India and Pakistan. But it is staggeringly obvious that an independent state of Kashmir, with no industry to speak of, would last for 15 minutes without subsidies from India or Pakistan. Worse still, such a state would probably be run according to strict Shariat law, denying rights to women and offering safe haven to the worlds jehadis. You would have to be very naive to believe that the US or any great power would support the creation of such a state.

So, why then are Kashmiris destroying their future in a mad and pointless insurrection?

I dont think most Indians know the answer but we suspect that it might have to do with religion. 

In todays secular India, religion is no longer a crucial determinant of political behaviour. We find the notion of a state founded only on religious identity old-fashioned and bizarre. 

But clearly, religion matters more to the separatists than anything else. The state has three parts, all of which get the same deal from the Centre. But it is only in the Valley, which is nearly all Muslim (after the ethnic cleansing of the Kashmiri Pandits) that secession finds many takers. This single-minded pursuit of an Islamic future sets Kashmiri separatists apart from Indian Muslims who have accepted a secular polity and feel no particular kinship with their Kashmiri brethrens political demands.

But because Kashmiri secessionism flows from an Islamist ideology, it poses special problems for educated Indians. I suspect that many of us are now so fed up that we would be happy to be rid of the Kashmiri separatists and their problems but for our fears for the future of Indian secularism. At some level, we wonder if this would not be a second Partition and we are afraid of what Kashmirs secession would mean for Indias thriving Muslim minority.

Ironically, it is this sentiment based on nothing more than a desire to protect Indian secularism that allows the separatists to tell the world that India is full of chauvinist Hindus who send their armies to attack Kashmiri Muslims and hang on to a country that is not theirs.

It is an old lie. It is a variation of the same untruth that the Muslim League spread in the run-up to Partition. Indian secularism survived that lie. And I have no doubt that however much the Kashmiri separatists may caricature our position now, both India and its secularism will eventually triumph again.

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## FNFAL

Its really sad to see armed forces being made scape goats for violence when these eye openers appear.


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## BATMAN

Indians are very naive their media has kept them in dark from all those past years.
India has more army personals presence in Kashmir than collective Pak army.
Which is busy fighting terrorism, floods and about 7000km- long hostile borders.


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## civfanatic

Someone from sify editorial team masquerading as Kashmiri Businessman. India Media and sadly Indian members hanging on crutches but refusing to accept the ground reality in Kashmir


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## FNFAL

^^^ cool ploy na??


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## parasite

We can do away with kashmir for a day or two at PDF......cant we.....daily same thing yaar....


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## HAIDER

SRINAGAR: Police fired on fresh anti-India demonstrations in Kashmir on Saturday, killing at least one and bringing the number of civilian deaths in an unprecedented wave of unrest to 100.

The protester was killed in Anantnag town when police shot at demonstrators who were hurling stones, after authorities retrieved the body of a man who drowned earlier in the week when police allegedly chased him into a river.

Security forces had to open fire to quell the violent demonstration, a police officer told AFP from Anantnag, south of Srinagar, where a two-decade uprising has been under way against New Delhi's rule.

Government forces have been battling for months to quell angry pro-independence demonstrations in the mainly Muslim region that were ignited by the police killing of a 17-year-old student on June 11.

Thousands spilled onto the streets Saturday in a fresh outpouring of public anger, including woman and children who defied a rigid indefinite curfew brought in across the region to try to contain the unrest.

In Srinagar, protesters spilled into the streets shouting, We want freedom! after officials reported another young protester died in hospital Saturday after being hurt earlier in the week by police firing.

So far, 100 protesters and bystanders, including children, have been killed since June according to an AFP tally, mostly by security forces firing on demonstrators who were pelting them with stones, chunks of wood and concrete.

One policeman has also died.

On Friday the London-based human rights group Amnesty International called on Indian authorities to order security forces not to use firearms against demonstrators.

There is an urgent need for the government to act to prevent more deaths, Amnesty said in a statement.

Security forces should use the minimum force necessary to defend themselves, Amnesty said.

The government is sending a 35-member all-party delegation to Kashmir on Monday to seek a way out of the cycle of violence, Indian media reported.
 
Home Minister P Chidambaram will lead the team, which aims to meet separatists and a cross-section of local people in a bid to defuse tensions, the Hindustan Times newspaper said.

The almost daily popular protests are the largest since an armed revolt erupted against Indian rule in 1989.

On Friday, at least three people were killed and 23 injured after security forces opened fire in six places as crowds pelted troops with stones and set fire to government buildings and vehicles, police said.

Police said protesters had injured at least 20 security force personnel in stone-throwing incidents instigated by separatists.

Pakistan accused India on Friday of brutality over its crackdown on demonstrators in the territory, which is held in part by each of the neighbours but claimed in full by both.

The curfew has been in place since Sunday in most parts of Indian-administered Kashmir, leading to complaints of collective punishment from locals who have been confined to their homes and are running low on food and medicine.
DAWN.COM | World | Fresh unrest rocks Kashmir as death toll hits 100


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## FNFAL

BATMAN said:


> Indians are very naive their media has kept them in dark from all those past years.
> India has more army personals presence in Kashmir than collective Pak army.
> Which is *busy fighting terrorism*, floods and about 7000km- long hostile borders.





and all IA does with those numbers is crush a independence movement? cool.

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## TechLahore

When I read lines like, "But who in his right mind would want union with today&#8217;s troubled Pakistan? Who wouldn&#8217;t prefer India&#8217;s success story to the Pakistani saga of national collapse?" I wonder at the utter idiocy and stark raving lunacy prevalent in quarters that come up with **** like this. 

The author can stick his nonsense where the sun don't shine. There is nothing of merit here. When someone comes and sets your house on fire and claims they are reacting in "bemusement" I'll ask you then what your feelings are.

Bloody fascist.

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## SMC

Great success story - Nearly 80 pct of India lives on half dollar a day | Reuters

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## FNFAL

indopak said:


> There is one part of the separatist position that we understand. We recognise that it must be hell to live with a constant military presence in a state where citizens are subject to random police checks and where curfew is a regular occurrence. Though few of us say this openly very often, most of us are intensely embarrassed by the stories of human rights abuses and the allegations about the use of excessive force by soldiers.
> 
> I dont think most Indians know the answer but we suspect that it might have to do with religion.
> 
> But clearly, religion matters more to the separatists than anything else. The state has three parts, all of which get the same deal from the Centre. But it is only in the Valley, which is nearly all Muslim (after the ethnic cleansing of the Kashmiri Pandits) that secession finds many takers. This single-minded pursuit of an Islamic future sets Kashmiri separatists apart from Indian Muslims who have accepted a secular polity and feel no particular kinship with their Kashmiri brethrens political demands.


well balanced article indeed


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## Areesh

FNFAL said:


> well balanced article indeed



Yeah balanced enough to create "reasons" for IOK's union with India.

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## TechLahore

Anyone that thinks that the situation in Pakistan is worse than India is smoking pot. Recently, one can't help but notice that there is this ludicrous sense of supremacy emanating from Indian quarters; typically the ill informed holier-than-thou types who have been raised on "shining india" posters and think that their garbage doesn't stink. These views, based on stupidity and bias, say far more about the people holding them than they do about Pakistan. This article is clearly written by one of these jackasses.

I am currently in Lahore with two American professors from one of the top 10 CS schools; they are loving every minute of it! Yes, they have been to India. And yes, they say what *every single* American guest of mine has said (and I entertain numerous business acquaintances from the US annually). 1. "What the hell is all the commotion about, there's nothing wrong here..." 2. "This is SO much cleaner than India" 3. "The roads are SO much better than India" 4. "There are SO many less beggars than we saw in India" and so on... I believe William Dalrymple, who has spent a lot of time in both India and Pakistan was quite clear on this subject in a recent talk.

So get off the high horse, or cow or camel or whatever the hell it is, and embrace reality. Pakistan has had better social and economic development indicators than India for almost 50 of the last 60 years. Only in the last 5 years has there been any difference worth pointing to. An whoever thinks that Pakistan's growth rate is permanently at 3-4&#37; is hopelessly deluded. It will go back to 7-9% as per numerous statements by IMF experts and others. Just a few years of good performance has made some people so heady... we didn't get this high on 50 years of superior indicators. Just says a lot about the chichorapana of the lot that thinks they are something special for 5 or 8 years of better numbers in the last 60+. Classless and chichora.

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## SMC

I do think that situation in India is better, but not by much. The difference is mainly due to less terrorism in India. I think Indians calling India a "success story", "shining", etc, is OTT self-praising. Typically this comes from those who live in very rich urban India, or Indians living abroad who seem to think that rich Urban India = whole India, or that India's GDP per capita is like $20,000 already. Obviously media makes a difference and when you keep hearing certain things, those certain things become the reality as far as you're concerned.

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## majesticpankaj

SMC said:


> I do think that situation in India is better, but not by much. The difference is mainly due to less terrorism in India. I think Indians calling India a "success story", "shining", etc, is OTT self-praising. Typically this comes from those who live in very rich urban India, or Indians living abroad who seem to think that rich Urban India = whole India, or that India's GDP per capita is like $20,000 already. Obviously media makes a difference and when you keep hearing certain things, those certain things become the reality as far as you're concerned.


i want to add few more thing along with less terrorism and i.e., good leadership, strong institutions and good image


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## SMC

Good image doesn't mean ****. It means perception, not reality.

Strong institutions, which ones?

Good leadership, well yes I guess, but this current leadership in Pakistan won't last.

For Pakistan, you could add things like less poverty, better infrastructure, less beggars, etc.


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## Avatar

SMC said:


> Great success story - Nearly 80 pct of India lives on half dollar a day | Reuters



If this is true, I would be shitting in my pants if I was you. India is this powerful at half dollar a day ...Imagine what will happen when we go 1 dollar a day !


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## SMC

Nice way of diversion there. For a country of 1.2 billion, it's nothing extraordinary.


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## TechLahore

Avatar said:


> If this is true, I would be shitting in my pants if I was you. India is this powerful at half dollar a day ...Imagine what will happen when we go 1 dollar a day !



Your false assumption is that we are impressed with India being "this" powerful... meh... don't think so. Keep patting your own back though. I am sure it takes your mind off those old chips on the shoulder.

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## Ganga

TechLahore said:


> I am currently in Lahore with two American professors from one of the top 10 CS schools; they are loving every minute of it! Yes, they have been to India. And yes, they say what *every single* American guest of mine has said (and I entertain numerous business acquaintances from the US annually). *1. "What the hell is all the commotion about, there's nothing wrong here..." 2. "This is SO much cleaner than India" 3. "The roads are SO much better than India" 4. "There are SO many less beggars than we saw in India*" and so on... I believe William Dalrymple, who has spent a lot of time in both India and Pakistan was quite clear on this subject in a recent talk.



India is a continent in itself unlike Pakistan and obviously the problems faced by India are at a much bigger scale as compared to Pakistan.Just because some American professors said that Pakistan is cleaner and has better roads ,it does not mean that Pakistan is ahead of India or something.I have read comments posted by many foreigners in other forums where they praise India.

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## TechLahore

Ganga said:


> India is a continent in itself unlike Pakistan and obviously the problems faced by India are at a much bigger scale as compared to Pakistan.Just because some American professors said that Pakistan is cleaner and has better roads ,it does not mean that Pakistan is ahead of India or something.I have read comments posted by many foreigners in other forums where they praise India.



And conversely, just because this unintelligent article characterizes Pakistan in a way that openly exposes the extreme bias of its author, it doesn't mean that such a characterization has any basis in reality.


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## majesticpankaj

SMC said:


> Good image doesn't mean ****. It means perception, not reality.
> 
> Strong institutions, which ones?
> 
> Good leadership, well yes I guess, but this current leadership in Pakistan won't last.
> 
> For Pakistan, you could add things like less poverty, better infrastructure, less beggars, etc.


perception is more important than reality. perception drives action. let me give an example.. in marketing, the first thing you will tell is that "it is not that imp how good is your product but the most imp thing is how it is perceive by customers". i dont want to go into that, but you can easily use that analogy in different field. whatever the problems we have, we more or less share a healthy image in the world. by the way, image is all about perception.

Institution:: parliament, Election commission of india, financial institutes, judicial system (bit a slow). indian army, legislative assemblies etc

as far as infrastructure is concerned we are one of the fastest growing

great rail connectivity, telecommunication system, making 20 kms of road every single day, world class international airports

poverty:http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect...tan-among-top-seven-with-high-hunger-rate-590

sadly, we are sailing on the same ship


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## navida

SMC said:


> Great success story - Nearly 80 pct of India lives on half dollar a day | Reuters



Vir Sangvi's articles are shallow and jingoistic. India's performance is mediocre at best. But said that, India definitely has a better future and the country and its people are confident and sure footed than ever. So, Kashmir has a better chance with India.


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## SMC

majesticpankaj said:


> perception is more important than reality. perception drives action. let me give an example.. in marketing, the first thing you will tell is that "it is not that imp how good is your product but the most imp thing is how it is perceive by customers". i dont want to go into that, but you can easily use that analogy in different field. whatever the problems we have, we more or less share a healthy image in the world. by the way, image is all about perception.



Here we're talking about ground reality, not perceptions. Yes I know image = perceptions and etc that you're saying. But what we're concerned about is ground reality. The media shows a very different picture of the two countries relative to their ground reality. And what the media says in turn becomes perceptions. I don't care what perceptions are in the case - I am more concerned with how the situation is at the ground.



> Institution:: parliament, Election commission of india, financial institutes, judicial system (bit a slow). indian army, legislative assemblies etc



Well they're probably not much better, but sure.


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## Avatar

TechLahore said:


> Your false assumption is that we are impressed with India being "this" powerful... meh... don't think so. Keep patting your own back though. I am sure it takes your mind off those old chips on the shoulder.



The false assumption is yours, not mine. I am not bothered with your impression about India. A non-manipulated google search is whose impression I care about. 

What you see as poverty, I see as growth potential. What this sums upto is that we are (currently) a decent force with very immense potentional.


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## TechLahore

navida said:


> Vir Sangvi's articles are shallow and jingoistic. India's performance is mediocre at best. But said that, India definitely has a better future and the country and its people are confident and sure footed than ever. So, Kashmir has a better chance with India.



That may be your opinion, but Kashmiris and Pakistanis would disagree with you. And thus the enmity continues.


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## majesticpankaj

for who this india is not doing great. i can post hundreds of them by different sources from allround the world from both international media and officials of government(including head of state)


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## Ganga

SMC said:


> Good image doesn't mean ****. It means perception, not reality.
> 
> Strong institutions, which ones?
> 
> Good leadership, well yes I guess, but this current leadership in Pakistan won't last.
> 
> For Pakistan, you could add things like* less poverty, better infrastructure*, less beggars, etc.



Well ,it is very simple .Pakistan has less beggars because it's population is around one tenth of that of India.

Coming to infrastructure Pakistan is no more ahead of India.India is investing a around 300 billion USD to upgrade as well as create new infrastructure .A simple example is the new airport at Delhi.Earlier Pakistanis used to claim that the airport at Islamabad is unparalleled.But now it is nowhere near the New Delhi airport.Forget about Delhi i don't think it is even near the new Hyderabad airport.Almost every major Indian city is getting a mass transit system in the form of metro or monorail etc..Flyover ,multi lane highways are being constructed everywhere.

India is catching up with the world slowly but steadily.

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## TechLahore

Avatar said:


> The false assumption is yours, not mine. I am not bothered with your impression about India. A non-manipulated google search is whose impression I care about.



Whatever makes you sleep better... self-praise, I suppose, is a drug...



> What you see as poverty, I see as growth potential. What this sums upto is that we are (currently) a decent force with very immense potentional.



You have the potential to be a regional power several decades hence. If you listen to your countrymen spew their grandiose delusions, it would appear India was a first world country. One shouldn't count one's chickens before they've hatched.


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## mjnaushad

ThE_G@mE said:


> The enemity is bcz of intruders who are pushed by pakistani army......They must not support terrorists.


Please prove your claim with solid proof or STFU.


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## SMC

> Well ,it is very simple .Pakistan has less beggars because it's population is around one tenth of that of India.



That's a false analogy. Think of it this way.

If you're in a city of, say 15 million and see much less beggers in another city of 15 million, what are you going to think about each city and the number of beggers in each city? It's not about numbers but rather proportions. The reason why you see more beggers in India is only due to the fact that a higher proportion of india is in poverty.


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## TechLahore

Ganga said:


> Well ,it is very simple .Pakistan has less beggars because it's population is around one tenth of that of India.
> 
> Coming to infrastructure Pakistan is no more ahead of India.India is investing a around 300 billion USD to upgrade as well as create new infrastructure .A simple example is the new airport at Delhi.Earlier Pakistanis used to claim that the airport at Islamabad is unparalleled.But now it is nowhere near the New Delhi airport.Forget about Delhi i don't think it is even near the new Hyderabad airport.Almost every major Indian city is getting a mass transit system in the form of metro or monorail etc..Flyover ,multi lane highways are being constructed everywhere.
> 
> India is catching up with the world slowly but steadily.



There are numerous infrastructure threads here so I don't want to make this yet another, but do some searching... India's highways are nowhere near infrastructure that existed in Pakistan 15 years ago. If you are building things, do you think we are sitting on our hands? The Ring Road - a 100+ KM 6 lane absolute beauty of a freeway, with dozens of bridges, underpasses, petal interchanges and more has been built in the last 2-3 years. It is almost complete and many parts have opened up already. There is nothing like this in India, much less the M-2 and other multi-hundred mile 6-lane highways that we've had for 15+ years.

We are building a new airport at Islamabad which will be a sight to see. Airports at Lahore and Karachi have been better than Indian airports for 10-15+ years. You are now catching up with things we did 2 decades ago, but we are not passive. For all the nonsense you hear about Pakistan, there are gargantuan construction projects in process.

So, no, you have not caught up with the infrastructure in Pakistan.

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## justanobserver

TechLahore said:


> Anyone that thinks that the situation in Pakistan is worse than India is smoking pot.





> So get off the high horse, or cow or camel or whatever the hell it is, and embrace reality. Pakistan has had better social and economic development indicators than India for almost 50 of the last 60 years.



Interesting....








Seems India had a higher growth rate for the past *20 years* (extending data till 2010). Before that its pretty much neck to neck.








So poverty is decreasing in India from the 1990s and, it's increasing in Pakistan ? Would love to see data from 2010







Guess many people don't want to live in shining Pakistan







Yup, here you guys outdo us

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## Ganga

TechLahore said:


> Whatever makes you sleep better... self-praise, I suppose, is a drug...
> 
> 
> 
> *You have the potential to be a regional power several decades hence*. If you listen your countrymen spew their grandiose delusions, it would appear India was a first world country. One shouldn't count one's chickens before they've hatched.



I will not agree with you here.If our country grows at this pace we will become a regional power in the next 10 -15 years.And i am not the one saying this.Several reputed institutions have predicted this .We require a couple of decades to become a global power however.


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## SMC

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/1592/poverty.png

WTF?  Pakistan poverty rate was recently put at 17&#37; by IMF. Either that picture is inaccurate or we've turned around the proportion of people in poverty.

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## majesticpankaj

people just see the images of mumbai pune expressway

http://www.google.co.in/images?hl=en&q=mumbai%20pune%20expressway&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1280&bih=561

bangalore mysore road
bangalore mysore road - Google Search

so many dams are there in our country to provide irrigation facilities to our farmers along with generating electricity.

more are on the way
people forget about delhi and kolcutta metros, oops what what about the coming metros in so many cities ??


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## TechLahore

Ganga said:


> I will not agree with you here.If our country grows at this pace we will become a regional power in the next 10 -15 years.And i am not the one saying this.Several reputed institutions have predicted this .We require a couple of decades to become a global power however.



China is already a global power and throughout history two neighbours have never been able to attain the stature of global powers together. The neighbour who gets there first never lets it happen. So it will be with India. China will not allow you to project power globally as it is more than capable of creating enough security challenges in your own backyard (land and sea) that you will strain to meet them. Don't take this as an insult, this is just a fundamental rule of history.

If you look back to the papers written by the founding fathers of America, a key part of the discussion was to prevent geographically contiguous countries from becoming too strong because if that were to happen, the US would not be able to break-out as a global power.

In Europe too, the dominant global powers emerged when their neighbour had declined. 

Don't hold your breath for India to be a global power. Ain't happenin' anytime soon.


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## justanobserver

@majesticpankaj
Pics don't prove anything, we'll have a barrage of pics about Islamabad.

My point was to counter the 'Pakistan has been doing better than India in every field for the past 60 years' misconception

Reality is before 1991 India and Pakistan we're more or less similar in atleast *economic* indicators, however post 1991 its a different story


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## Ganga

TechLahore said:


> There are numerous infrastructure threads here so I don't want to make this yet another, but do some searching... India's highways are nowhere near infrastructure that existed in Pakistan 15 years ago. If you are building things, do you think we are sitting on our hands? *The Ring Road - a 100+ KM 6 lane absolute beauty of a freeway, with dozens of bridges, underpasses, petal interchanges and more has been built in the last 2-3 years. It is almost complete and many parts have opened up already. There is nothing like this in India,* much less the M-2 and other multi-hundred mile 6-lane highways that we've had for 15+ years.


Frankly speaking i am not impressed.There are many roads in India which are a equally good or even better than the road you have mentioned.A perfect example is the Bombay- Pune expressway which is around 165 km long.I have used the road a couple of times and i know what it is. Such expressways are coming everywhere in the country.If i am not wrong a 12 lane expressway was recently opened connecting Delhi and Gurgaon. Your claim that there is no such road in India shows how little you know about India when it comes to infrastructure.


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## mjnaushad




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## majesticpankaj

TechLahore said:


> China is already a global power and throughout history two neighbours have never been able to attain the stature of global powers together. The neighbour who gets there first never lets it happen. So it will be with India. China will not allow you to project power globally as it is more than capable of creating enough security challenges in your own backyard (land and sea) that you will strain to meet them. Don't take this as an insult, this is just a fundamental rule of history.
> 
> If you look back to the papers written by the founding fathers of America, a key part of the discussion was to prevent geographically contiguous countries from becoming too strong because if that were to happen, the US would not be able to break-out as a global power.
> 
> In Europe too, the dominant global powers emerged when their neighbour had declined.
> 
> Don't hold your breath for India to be a global power. Ain't happenin' anytime soon.


sir, we are spending only 2.5&#37; of our gdp on our defences. GOI is not increasing that from %. so how its gonna put severe pressure on us? on the other hand, we are investing hugely in infrastructure of border area. which is good for us. thanks


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## TechLahore

majesticpankaj said:


> people just see the images of mumbai pune expressway
> 
> mumbai pune expressway - Google Search
> 
> bangalore mysore road
> bangalore mysore road - Google Search
> 
> so many dams are there in our country to provide irrigation facilities to our farmers along with generating electricity.
> 
> more are on the way
> people forget about delhi and kolcutta metros, oops what what about the coming metros in so many cities ??



Nothing at all impressive about the Mumbai-Pune expressway. You are posting it here only because you are probably not familiar with the infrastructure in Pakistan with which this road compares poorly. It is a 4-lane, fairly short road with a length of only 93 km. This is shorter than the highway we have *inside* Lahore. And that is 6 lanes plus emergency lanes (1 on each side!!). 

Also, please stop posting pictures of India's roads here. That is off topic and as I've said before we have PLENTY of infrastructure threads both dedicated to India and to Pakistan, and we also have comparison threads. If you post pictures of a 4 lane 93KM road, me or someone else will respond with pictures of the M2, Ring Road, ISB-Peshawar motorway (M1) or other roads and then we'll be off-topic for good.

Please search the forum to catch up with infrastructure in Pakistan. I would also recommend listening to Dalrymple's talk in which he clearly comments on the superiority of Pakistan's infrastructure.

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## majesticpankaj

India infrastructure boom to boost world growth: Advisor

NEW DELHI: India can showcase its massive infrastructure spending and a wider current account deficit at the next G20 summit as its contribution to reviving global economic demand, Montek Singh Ahluwalia, the deputy head of the Planning Commission said on Thursday.

Ahluwalia said India's current account deficit could reach 3 per cent in the fiscal year ending March 2011 but the higher figure could be financed by increased capital flows.

Asia's third-largest economy is looking overseas to import equipment to help build infrastructure projects worth a planned $1.5 trillion in the ten years to 2017.

Imports will likely increase in the coming years especially for higher end projects such as airports and power plants, Ahluwalia said.

"It is important for each country to say what it is going to do to stimulate demand," Ahluwalia told reporters, when asked what India could bring to the table at the November summit of the Group of 20 leading countries in Seoul.

"As far as India is concerned, we are doing exactly what is necessary to stimulate global domand because our internal strategy is based on accelerating domestic investment in infrastructure," he added.

India is planning to spend $1.5 trillion on infrastructure in the ten years to 2017 to overhaul its creaking road, railway and power sectors, long seen as a drag on growth in Asia's third-largest economy.

India's August trade deficit widened to a 23-month high, putting pressure on the current account deficit and prompting a top Indian trade official to raise his forecast for the full year trade deficit figure.

"Investment in infrastructure is more import intensive. So it is our expectation that if we follow that approach, even though exports will be a little depressed compared to what they would have been in a booming situation, the current account deficit may widen," Ahluwalia said.

"We are willing to live with that. We think we'll be able to finance it, so it's not actually a big problem, but the key to financing it is that there should be stability and an element of certainty in the global financial system, especially as far as flows to emerging market countries are concerned."


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## TextMiner

TechLahore said:


> *When I read lines like, "But who in his right mind would want union with todays troubled Pakistan? Who wouldnt prefer Indias success story to the Pakistani saga of national collapse?" I wonder at the utter idiocy and stark raving lunacy prevalent in quarters that come up with **** like this.*
> 
> The author can stick his nonsense where the sun don't shine. There is nothing of merit here. When someone comes and sets your house on fire and claims they are reacting in "bemusement" I'll ask you then what your feelings are.
> 
> Bloody fascist.


So, your disgruntled view is only against this Author ? Or anyone else who does not align with your views on why Kashmir should not be United with India ? Because, what i read from the West, are all news going gung-ho about India's current role in the global world, and likewise panning Pakistan on all fronts as to how a nuisance it has become in its role as a forerunner of Terrorism.

So, Absolutely yes, India has an economic divide of herculean proportions, wherein the top 100 control about 25% of the Nation's GDP. And, yes, the Infrastructure is not something even noteworthy to come under the "Shining India" slogan (which is something i balk at). But, the reason Pakistan is considered a bad example is not due to its Roads or Number of Beggars(Poverty), it is due to its history of being a Terror factory ; The West considers (among them influential policy makers) Kashmir would go the FATA way, if ever it secedes from India. This is why, the West (not including the Media here) is largely unconcerned about the current Kashmir situation.

And yes, India's economic indicators have improved only in the last 8 years over Pakistan ; But its social indicators have been fairly better than Pakistan over the last 60 years whether be Adult Literacy, Enrollment ratio or even Access to Health is concerned.

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## karan.1970

SMC said:


> Good image doesn't mean ****. It means perception, not reality.
> 
> Strong institutions, which ones?
> 
> Good leadership, well yes I guess, but this current leadership in Pakistan won't last.
> 
> For Pakistan, you could add things like less poverty, better infrastructure, less beggars, etc.



Do look up the latest Global competitiveness report from WEF.. Or the Forbes list

I agree that India is nowhere near the position of climbing the high horse, or camel or cow and preaching to Pakistan on social indicators, but do not discount the trend so out of hand.


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## TechLahore

Ganga said:


> Frankly speaking i am not impressed.There are many roads in India which are a equally good or even better than the road you have mentioned.A perfect example is the Bombay- Pune expressway which is around 165 km long.I have used the road a couple of times and i know what it is. Such expressways are coming everywhere in the country.If i am not wrong a 12 lane expressway was recently opened connecting Delhi and Gurgaon. Your claim that there is no such road in India shows how little you know about India when it comes to infrastructure.



It looks like you need to take a break and go do some reading.

Mumbai Pune Expressway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mumbai Pune is 93km which is shorter than highway loops we have *inside* the city of Lahore. Yawn.


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## Ganga

TechLahore said:


> Don't hold your breath for India to be a global power. Ain't happenin' *anytime soon.*



When did i mention that India will become a global power anytime soon?I clearly mentioned that it will take a couple of decades.


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## SMC

^ Please, quit bringing in the west. By bringing in what the west thinks, you're only concerning yourself with perceptions, not what the ground reality is.


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## Spring Onion

Ganga said:


> India is a continent in itself unlike Pakistan and obviously the problems faced by India are at a much bigger scale as compared to Pakistan.Just because some American professors said that Pakistan is cleaner and has better roads ,it does not mean that Pakistan is ahead of India or something.I have read comments posted by many foreigners in other forums where they praise India.



Who cares if India is opposite to all those ills factually present in India.

Kashmiris protesting against Indian State terrorism in their country which is occupied by India is the reality which is now bewildering Indians


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## SMC

TBH, this topic has been discussed several times so there's no point going over it again. I think it should be locked. Both countries have problems and need working. IMO, India is slightly ahead ATM, but I see way too many indians counting their chickens before the eggs have hatched. There's too many things that can happen from now till 2 or 3 decades later when India hopes to become a global power.


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## justanobserver

TechLahore said:


> It looks like you need to take a break and go do some reading.
> 
> Mumbai Pune Expressway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Mumbai Pune is 93km which is shorter than highway loops we have *inside* the city of Lahore. Yawn.



Wow, lets start discussing malls and cars now !

Please read my post below




> My point was to counter the 'Pakistan has been doing better than India in every field for the past 60 years' misconception
> 
> Reality is before 1991 India and Pakistan we're more or less similar in atleast economic indicators, however post 1991 its a different story



Any counter arguments?


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## SMC

justanobserver said:


> Any counter arguments?



He said 50 out of 60 years if you didn't catch that, and he's correct. There's still time for Pakistan to turn things around if we can get rid of ghaddari.


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## Ganga

TechLahore said:


> We are building a new airport at Islamabad which will be a sight to see. Airports at Lahore and Karachi have been better than Indian airports for 10-15+ years. *You are now catching up with things we did 2 decades ago, but we are not passive.* For all the nonsense you hear about Pakistan, there are gargantuan construction projects in process.
> 
> So, no, you have not caught up with the infrastructure in Pakistan.



Are you saying that Pakistan had a 5.24 million sq.ft passenger terminal 20 years ago?


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## karan.1970

Interestingly this thread turned from a Kashmir thread to an economic one..

Lets see if it reaches LCA and JF 17..

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## SMC

Ganga said:


> Are you saying that Pakistan had a 5.24 million sq.ft passenger terminal 20 years ago?



The point is about quality airports and infrastructure, not necessarily having something equivalent. We didn't need something like that.


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## justanobserver

> He said 50 out of 60 years if you didn't catch that, and he's correct.



Well I posted a statistic about GDP growth percentage:








Seems India had a higher growth rate for the past *20 years* (extending data till 2010). Before that *its pretty much neck to neck.*


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## TechLahore

TextMiner said:


> So, your disgruntled view is only against this Author ? Or anyone else who does not align with your views on why Kashmir should not be United with India ? Because, what i read from the West, are all news going gung-ho about India's current role in the global world, and likewise panning Pakistan on all fronts as to how a nuisance it has become in its role as a forerunner of Terrorism.



My disgruntled view? A more appropriate characterization would be my disgust at the ill-informed, biased nonsense of a two-bit hack of a journo.

What you read "from the west" puts China at #1 and if that's the case, you have no cause much to celebrate. You can try to befriend China, but they are not idiots. As you have seen recently with them directing numerous insults at you, they are more than willing to take you on, whether by laying claims to territory, projecting power in the Indian ocean, putting you down diplomatically by refusing to stamp Indian passports for Kashmir residents or rejecting your top Kashmir-based general's visa application. They know that a fundamental truism in history has been that two global powers cannot share borders. And they have no intention of letting you be more than a regional power... 

As for terrorism, look, money talks and bull$hit walks. For all the bull$hit, the entire western world is collaborating with Pakistan. You can keep harping on terror factory and other out-of-date bollywood tunes, but they mean $hit when the entire world is ACTING in a way that confirms Pakistan as friend, helper and ally. Once again, forget how lips move and watch how hips move. The wests hips are moving in pleasing ways viz Pakistan.



> And yes, India's economic indicators have improved only in the last 8 years over Pakistan ; But its social indicators have been fairly better than Pakistan over the last 60 years whether be Adult Literacy, Enrollment ratio or even Access to Health is concerned.



You forget that Pakistan has outdone India in numerous development indicators despite the fact that India robbed Pakistan of its fair share of resources at the time of partition (extensive documentation by British officers and I have shared references on this very forum in the past; you can search and satisfy your curiosity. This is an undisputed fact).

As for access to health and literacy, much of the infrastructure including almost all the universities were in India at the time of partition. So there's no surprise that in the early years India fared better in these areas. The rate at which the literacy gap has been closing though is quite remarkable. To give you an example, female literacy numbers in India and Pakistan are both at roughly 64&#37; today. If you read your press and its characterizations of Pakistan, you would think that women in our country are not getting an opportunity to study or learn. As with much else that is written about Pakistan in the Indian press, this too would be nonsense and crap.


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## Avatar

TechLahore said:


> Whatever makes you sleep better... self-praise, I suppose, is a drug...
> 
> 
> 
> You have the potential to be a regional power several decades hence. If you listen your countrymen spew their grandiose delusions, it would appear India was a first world country. One shouldn't count one's chickens before they've hatched.



I'm not praising ..Look at the facts. Some decades ago we were literally a begging bowl. Today we're donating, even to your country. The future is always uncertain. India is no first world country, it's well known. Irrespective of what you think, India is a powerful nation despite its many problems.. and we, the people of India, are making efforts to solve these problems.


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## TechLahore

Ganga said:


> Are you saying that Pakistan had a 5.24 million sq.ft passenger terminal 20 years ago?



What a ridiculous comment!! When it comes to beggars you guys go with a per-capita argument even though that argument is nonsensical. And when it comes to passenger terminals, suddenly you are comparing square footage! Square footage is irrelevant. The quality, functionality, passenger comfort and safety of the airport is what is being talked about. There was no airport in India 20 years ago that was even close to the fit and finish or the Karachi airport. Not even CLOSE.


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## karan.1970

and of all the talk of Infrastructure, I would like to make a quick point. Infra is not just fancy clean roads in selected cities that the foreigners get impressed with. Its a cummulation of a variety of factors like Rails, Air corridors, electricity etc. If you refer the world economic forum report on Global competitiveness, you will see some of these parameters defined and both India and Pakistan rated on the same. While Infra in India is not that great, it is still rated 13 ranks above Pakistan's and there was a similar story in 2009 report too

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## SMC

It's completely naive to use what is written in western media and what is said in the west as an indicator of ground reality. The media has its own interests and it depicts things based on those interests.


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## RobbieS

TechLahore said:


> Anyone that thinks that the situation in Pakistan is worse than India is smoking pot. Recently, one can't help but notice that there is this ludicrous sense of supremacy emanating from Indian quarters; typically the ill informed holier-than-thou types who have been raised on "shining india" posters and think that their garbage doesn't stink. These views, based on stupidity and bias, say far more about the people holding them than they do about Pakistan. This article is clearly written by one of these jackasses.
> 
> I am currently in Lahore with two American professors from one of the top 10 CS schools; they are loving every minute of it! Yes, they have been to India. And yes, they say what *every single* American guest of mine has said (and I entertain numerous business acquaintances from the US annually). 1. "What the hell is all the commotion about, there's nothing wrong here..." 2. "This is SO much cleaner than India" 3. "The roads are SO much better than India" 4. "There are SO many less beggars than we saw in India" and so on... I believe William Dalrymple, who has spent a lot of time in both India and Pakistan was quite clear on this subject in a recent talk.
> 
> So get off the high horse, or cow or camel or whatever the hell it is, and embrace reality. Pakistan has had better social and economic development indicators than India for almost 50 of the last 60 years. Only in the last 5 years has there been any difference worth pointing to. An whoever thinks that Pakistan's growth rate is permanently at 3-4% is hopelessly deluded. It will go back to 7-9% as per numerous statements by IMF experts and others. Just a few years of good performance has made some people so heady... we didn't get this high on 50 years of superior indicators. Just says a lot about the chichorapana of the lot that thinks they are something special for 5 or 8 years of better numbers in the last 60+. Classless and chichora.



Yeah right, Pakistan is better than India. My a$$. And please stop giving us stupid personal anecdotes on American professors and your Western friends visiting Pakistan and being amazed. You talk about American Professors, we have premier American colleges lining up to enroll Indian students. Last wednesday I attended a seminar by Booth School of business here in Delhi. Let me know when something like that happens in Pakistan. We have the Americans using names like Bangalore to scare their kids into studying harder. 

And dont give me $hyt about high growth rates and industrialization.

Talk to us Indians when you have at least 3 companies in the Fortune 500. We have more than 10. 

Talk to us when you have a globally recognized brand. We have too many to count here.

Talk to us when a Pakistani company employs more than a thousand Americans. TCS and Infosys do.

Talk to us when a Pakistani company takes over a landmark western institution. Tata did it with JLR and Reliance and Aditya Birla group have done it numerous times.

And talk to us when your country is known for any exports other than global terror.

Untill then, STFU!

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## TechLahore

Avatar said:


> I'm not praising ..Look at the facts. Some decades ago we were literally a begging bowl. Today we're donating, even to your country. The future is always uncertain. India is no first world country, it's well known. Irrespective of what you think, India is a powerful nation despite its many problems.. and we, the people of India, are making efforts to solve these problems.



Yes, and so are we, the people of Pakistan. I would consider us, with one of the largest militaries in the world and probably more nuclear weapons than India, pretty strong too. And just like you, we give aid to other nations as well... on a per capita basis, we've spent much more in Afghanistan, for example.

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but that just underscores the point that the article which started this thread, and its ridiculous characterization of Pakistan, is fundamentally flawed and biased. That was my point to begin with.

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## Ganga

karan.1970 said:


> and of all the talk of Infrastructure, I would like to make a quick point. Infra is not just fancy clean roads in selected cities that the foreigners get impressed with. Its a cummulation of a variety of factors like Rails, Air corridors, electricity etc. If you refer the world economic forum report on Global competitiveness, you will see some of these parameters defined and both India and Pakistan rated on the same. While Infra in India is not that great, it is still rated 13 ranks above Pakistan's and there was a similar story in 2009 report too



You are absolutely right.A lot of things should be taken into consideration when the infrastructure of a nation is judged.


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## justanobserver

> They know that a fundamental truism in history has been that two global powers cannot share borders.



Russia and China ?


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## SMC

RobbieS said:


> And please stop giving us stupid personal anecdotes on American professors and your Western friends visiting Pakistan and being amazed.



Why not? Those anecdotes come from people who have been to *BOTH*, not just India, or just basing their opinion on what they hear in the media. When you don't want to hear about the ground reality, it seems to be that you're not interested in hearing experiences of people who have the true knowledge to put things into perspective.



> You talk about American Professors, we have premier American colleges lining up to enroll Indian students. Last wednesday I attended a seminar by Booth School of business here in Delhi. Let me know when something like that happens in Pakistan.



I think you'll be quite surprised by your lack of knowledge here. I live in Canada so I don't know much about this but what my cousins in Pakistan tell me will surprise you.

Also, what does this have to do with the situations in either country?



> We have the Americans using names like Bangalore to scare their kids into studying harder.



Err yeah, a city of 6 odd million representing whole of India. Yeah, not a good argument.



> And dont give me $hyt about high growth rates and industrialization.



WTF?



> Talk to us Indians when you have at least 3 companies in the Fortune 500. We have more than 10.
> 
> Talk to us when you have a globally recognized brand. We have too many to count here.
> 
> Talk to us when a Pakistani company employs more than a thousand Americans. TCS and Infosys do.
> 
> Talk to us when a Pakistani company takes over a landmark western institution. Tata did it with JLR and Reliance and Aditya Birla group have done it numerous times.



What do any of these have to do with the situation in either country? Does having few big name companies indicate what the ground reality is like? Conversely, does not having them also indicate what ground reality is like.



> And talk to us when your country is known for any exports other than global terror.
> 
> Untill then, STFU!



Classical bharti ad hominem. Usually used when there are few other arguments left.

---------- Post added at 03:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:32 PM ----------




justanobserver said:


> Russia and China ?



Russia is not a global power and will probably not become one anytime soon.

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## Areesh

RobbieS said:


> And dont give me $hyt about high growth rates and industrialization.
> 
> Talk to us Indians when you have at least 3 companies in the Fortune 500. We have more than 10.
> 
> Talk to us when you have a globally recognized brand. We have too many to count here.
> 
> Talk to us when a Pakistani company employs more than a thousand Americans. TCS and Infosys do.
> 
> Talk to us when a Pakistani company takes over a landmark western institution. Tata did it with JLR and Reliance and Aditya Birla group have done it numerous times.
> 
> And talk to us when your country is known for any exports other than global terror.
> 
> Untill then, STFU!



Hey boy. The difference is that we used to even talk to you when you didn't had any of the above things and were famous with titles as Sick man of Asia and Stinky Nation. That's where the moral bankruptcy pays in.


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## justanobserver

> Russia is not a global power and will probably not become one anytime soon.



 Thats news to me...



> were famous with titles as Sick man of Asia



Sick Man of Asia

The phrase "sick man of Asia" or "sick man of East Asia" *originally referred to China* in the late 19th and early 20th centuries when it was riven by internal divisions and forced by the great powers into a series of Unequal Treaties, culminating in the Japanese invasion of China in the Second World War. The phrase was intended as a parallel to "sick man of Europe", referring to the weakening Ottoman Empire during the same period.
--------------------
Now they're considered as an economic powerhouse, perceptions change (for both India and Pakistan).

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## TechLahore

RobbieS said:


> Yeah right, Pakistan is better than India. My a$$. And please stop giving us stupid personal anecdotes on American professors and your Western friends visiting Pakistan and being amazed. You talk about American Professors, we have premier American colleges lining up to enroll Indian students. Last wednesday I attended a seminar by Booth School of business here in Delhi. Let me know when something like that happens in Pakistan. We have the Americans using names like Bangalore to scare their kids into studying harder.



Here we have a pompous ignoramus! If you can't listen to anything that falls outside the comfort of your preconceived notions then take a frickin' hike. 

If you are not aware that a significant percentage of the faculty of the Government College in Lahore is made up of American professors from leading US universities, then that is not my problem. If you are unaware that the FC College here in Lahore is the same, and that both these schools have exchange programs with American Universities, then that is not my problem. And if you are not aware that the board of LUMS is comprised of serving Professors from MIT, Harvard and other leading American universities, who come here, teach here, recruit from here and run programs where the same class is taught at the same time via live video cons between LUMS and MIT, then that is not my problem. If you are unaware that the University of Central Punjab has had exchange affiliations where students can attend an entire BS program and receive a US degree... SINCE 1993, then that is not my problem. And this is just a small sampling from Lahore. You are new to American universities working in your country, but we are not. The entire Punjab University New Campus was setup in Lahore in the 70s with US collaboration and exchange programs with American Universities. That was the time when you were flying the Socialist flag and it wouldn't be several decades later until you finally grew some brains and presented yourself at the altar of a different "friend".



> And dont give me $hyt about high growth rates and industrialization.



I'm glad it hurts. Suck it up.



> And talk to us when your country is known for any exports other than global terror.



Why don't I talk to you now when you are known globally for f1lth, insurgencies, terrorizing Kashmiris and Slumdog Millionaire. If you are going to take a bull$hit tone with me, I will respond in kind. 

As for terror, don't count your chickens before they've hatched. With the Naxal insurgency raging over a far greater area than the Taliban can even dream of, and Kashmir in flames.... look in the mirror... unless its too scary of an image to deal with.



> Untill then, STFU!



Get a life you and grow some. Learn to listen to reality beyond your bull$hit sorry a$$ local rags. And if being here hurts so bad, then FO!!!.

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## TextMiner

TechLahore said:


> *China is already a global power and throughout history two neighbours have never been able to attain the stature of global powers together. *China will not allow you to project power globally as it is more than capable of creating enough security challenges in your own backyard (land and sea) that you will strain to meet them. Don't take this as an insult, this is just a fundamental rule of history.
> 
> In Europe too, the dominant global powers emerged when their neighbour had declined.


First of all, in what way can you tell me is China a Global Power ? A Global Power has to influence military, economic and political influence on those countries which inflluence policy making throughout the Entire Globe. Inability in any one front automatically dispels the Global Power notion ; China is able to do so on the economic front ; Also being in the UNSC its political influence is considerable ; Yet militarily China is still very much a regional power.

Secondly, Have you ever heard of the Hundred Years War between England and France ? This was a significant event in history where one power declined and the other power ascended, but the real power they started projecting was of an imperialistic doctrine and colonialism. It was this way they could get leeway, by being side-by-side as Global powers and yet, not annihilate each other. Read up on the aftermath of the Hundred Years War on the Global Foreign Policy of either nations. So, your second point too failed to be of any impact.



TechLahore said:


> *If you look back to the papers written by the founding fathers of America, a key part of the discussion was to prevent geographically contiguous countries from becoming too strong because if that were to happen, the US would not be able to break-out as a global power.
> *


Here, i am not aware of any Doctrines by the Forefathers that did mention about such a notion. Most of the earlier foreign policies of the US was only not to bring wars into the American continent, and thereby support of such nations which did not have an interest in the Latin or Northern Americas. Even the Roosevelt Doctrine (Theodore) was only to be a hegemony in the Americas. The earliest i recollect of American global domination doctrines were only in the post World War II scenario.


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## TechLahore

justanobserver said:


> Russia and China ?



And you think Russia is a global power? In what world???


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## TechLahore

This thread is closed. The discussion started due to a ridiculous mischaracterization in an Indian news article and it has since been visited by tangents concerning infrastructure, economies, uncontrolled bouts of anger and other typical India vs. Pakistan back and forth. In future, if I see an agenda driven, biased article from the Indian press I will simply kill the thread and save us all a few pages of reading effort.

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## GreenStar

Looks like the situation is getting worse...very disappointing to hear that the Indian goverment is failing to control the crowd in a civil productive manner.


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> As I said it isn't going to bring any change. The IOK is burning and it will till it gets freedom from the foreigners. As far as militancy is concerned it can rise against easily with all the ingredients for it are present in IOK. As far as about illegitimate occupation Kashmir doesn't belong to India in the first place, so it is obvious it is an illegitimate occupation. An occupation which is bound to end even at any cost.



These are just statements without any substance. More on the lines of "If wishes were horses"

I dont want to go into the to and fro of What Maharaja of Kashmir did in terms of aceeding to India and what were the conditions of the plebiscite and how they were never met.

In today's scenario, the situation is much better than what it was a few years ago. While there are spordaic up surges like the one we are seeing now, they are not strong enough to make a tangible difference. We have weathered much worse storms. Actually if you compare, the situation is much worse in places like Balochistan, and if Pakistan can manage that, we can certainly manage the issues in Kashmir.


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> These are just statements without any substance. More on the lines of "If wishes were horses"
> 
> I dont want to go into the to and fro of What Maharaja of Kashmir did in terms of aceeding to India and what were the conditions of the plebiscite and how they were never met.
> 
> In today's scenario, the situation is much better than what it was a few years ago. While there are spordaic up surges like the one we are seeing now, they are not strong enough to make a tangible difference. We have weathered much worse storms. Actually if you compare, the situation is much worse in places like Balochistan, and if Pakistan can manage that, we can certainly manage the issues in Kashmir.



And it doesn't much time to make the reverse the cycle and take it back to where it was a few years ago. Fortunately the ingredients are their and your will to continue occupation would be just what needed to make the things back to where they before.



> These are just statements without any substance. More on the lines of "If wishes were horses"



By the way last part of your post isn't much different.
.


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> And it doesn't much time to make the reverse the cycle and take it back to where it was a few years ago. Fortunately the ingredients are their and your will to continue occupation would be just what needed to make the things back to where they before.
> 
> 
> 
> By the way last part of your post isn't much different.
> .



The difference is that your post is talking about what may happen in future and how its easy enough to take the violence in J&K back up thru the use of Pakistan based terrorists. Where as I am talking about how the *present* situation is relatively milder than past situation in India and is nothing compared to the present turmoil in Pakistan and how India has a much higher degree of staying power than Pakistan to weather this storm. 



Areesh said:


> And it doesn't much time to make the reverse the cycle and take it back to where it was a few years ago. .


Actually it does take a lot to do that. India is much stronger than what it was 10 years back and Pakistan is much weaker (economically and politically). Also there is too much cr@p flying around in Pakistan in terms of TTP, LeJ and the likes for Pakistan to be able to focus any tangible attention to Kashmir. And then there is Afghanistan. So with a significantly distracted Pakistan in Balochistan, Afghanistan and KP region, and its horrific economic situation, it will be a tough ask to drum up a significant tangible action in Kashmir

But hey, ummeed pe duniya kayaam hai.. Keep on hoping..


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> The difference is that your post is talking about what may happen in future and how its easy enough to take the violence in J&K back up thru the use of Pakistan based terrorists. Where as I am talking about how the *present* situation is relatively milder than past situation in India and is nothing compared to the present turmoil in Pakistan and how India has a much higher degree of staying power than Pakistan to weather this storm.



Well definitely IOK has past also which fortunately due to your occupation was very violent. Now with the same occupation in continuation and Kashmiri frustration on the boil it isn't a rocket science to understand how easy is it to make things worst in IOK. As far as Pakistan's turmoil is concern Pakistan has successfully weathered foreign sponsered terrorism in it's and can has every tendency to pay back in the same currency. With Pakistan very righteously claim on IOK, it is the best place to pay back the debt we have on our shoulders in IOK.



> Actually it does take a lot to do that. India is much stronger than what it was 10 years back and Pakistan is much weaker (economically and politically). Also there is too much cr@p flying around in Pakistan in terms of TTP, LeJ and the likes for Pakistan to be able to focus any tangible attention to Kashmir. And then there is Afghanistan. So with a significantly distracted Pakistan in Balochistan, Afghanistan and KP region, and its horrific economic situation, it will be a tough ask to drum up a significant tangible action in Kashmir



OH come one we know how strong you are. Even if we accept you are as strong as America(which you aren't), you can see what is happening to America in Afghanistan. With China's support in this region and situation very quickly changing in Afghanistan Pakistan can easily support Kashmiris independence movement in IOK in every manner. Even back than when Pakistan was supporting so called cross border terrorism in IOK Pakistan wasn't an economic giant and their was political turmoil in Pakistan. But with all this it forced it's enemies to bleed in it's rightly claim territory. In 70's we faced Balochistan problem and in 80's we forced our stinky enemy to bleed, now again we face problems in KP and Balochistan. And God knows how we might respond to our enemies when Indian will to continue it's illegitimate occupation and Kashmiri frustration add to our advantage.



> But hey, ummeed pe duniya kayaam hai.. Keep on hoping.



That is exactly what I am trying to you and other Bharatis. IOK's supposed accession to Bharat was a blunder and should be rectified.


----------



## bc040400065

*Why isnt India a pariah state? *

By ROB BROWN 
09/19/2010 04:51 


*The Indian occupation of Kashmir between 1989-2009 has resulted in more than 70,000 deaths but there are no serious moves to delegitimize the country. *
Most citizens of this country probably feel they already have quite enough on their plates dealing with Hizbullah and Hamas without pondering whats happening way off in the Himalayas. Current events in Kashmir do, however, deserve serious consideration, if only because dark and dangerous parallels between that conflict and the Israel-Palestinian one are being drawn by global jihadists, as well as by some influential international opinion-formers who should know better.

An intifada-style popular revolt is how The New York Times has portrayed the latest popular uprising against Indian occupation which has swept through this predominantly Muslim province this summer, making the breathtakingly beautiful Kashmir Valley appear even more of a paradise lost. Although not clad in keffiyehs, young Kashmiri teenagers can sometimes resemble their Palestinian peers as they throw stones at army patrols and dodge tear-gas canisters on the streets of the state capital, Srinagar.


But what the world is never told by The New York Times, nor by most other supposedly liberal organs, is that New Delhis response to such civil disobedience has been far more savage and brutal than anything authorized in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv, leading in the past to serious armed insurrection (often incited by Pakistan).

The Indian essayist Pankaj Mishra justly observed recently: *The killing fields of Kashmir dwarf those of Palestine and Tibet. In addition to the everyday regime of arbitrary arrests, curfews, raids and checkpoints enforced by nearly 700,000 Indian soldiers, the valleys 4 million Muslims are exposed to extrajudicial execution, **** and torture, with such barbaric variations as live electric wires inserted into the penis.*
A LEADING local NGO, the International Peoples Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice in Indian-Administered Kashmir, has reported that extrajudicial killings and torture are commonplace there. *It claims that the Indian military occupation of that state between 1989-2009 has resulted in more than 70,000 deaths, and many of these killings were deemed acts of service by Indias feared Central Reserve Police Force, leading to promotion and financial reward (bounty is paid after claims made by officers are verified, apparently*).

Still, there are no serious moves afoot in editorial corridors or academic campuses anywhere in the Western world to transform India into an international pariah. No calls for boycotts, disinvestment or sanctions against the worlds largest democracy.

The deafening silence over Kashmir speaks volumes about the double standards by which different governments around the globe are judged on their human rights records.

Partly this stems from the post-imperial guilt complex which continues to afflict so many citizens of the West.

The atrocities committed by former colonies are endlessly excused by loose-thinking liberals in London and Paris, however flagrant and ugly such abuses might be. On the extremely rare occasions when repugnant regimes are taken to task, the real responsibility for their brutality is usually reported to lie with external agents.

The Pakistani Marxist polemicist Tariq Ali recently regaled readers of the zealously anti-Zionist London Review of Books with the claim that the real cause of Kashmiris current suffering is the ever-evil IDF. It has been open season on Muslims since 9/11, when the liberation struggle in Kashmir was conveniently subsumed under the war on terror, he wrote. Israeli military officers were invited to visit Akhnur military base in the province and advise on counter-terrorism measures.

Ali gleefully quotes the Web site India Defense, which noted in September 2008 that Maj.-Gen. Avi Mizrahi paid an unscheduled visit to the disputed state of Kashmir last week to get an up-close look at the challenges the Indian military faces in its fight against Islamic insurgents.

Mizrahi was in India for three days of meetings with the countrys military brass, and to discuss a plan the IDF is drafting for Israeli commandos to train Indian counter-terror forces.

The concern isnt that such conspiracy theories are recycled on the pages of the LRB  a small, self-important literary journal  but they are also plastered across countless Islamofascist Web sites, reinforcing the dangerously warped worldview of some of the most dangerous people on the planet. In her days as director-general of the British security service MI5, Eliza Mannigham- Buller observed how jihadists are driven by a powerful narrative that weaves together conflicts from across the globe, [including] long-standing conflicts such as Israel-Palestine and Kashmir.

What this leading spook didnt add is that the crazed fury which results from such communal paranoia isnt directed with equal vehemence and violence against the various alleged perpetrators. *The once heavenly Kashmir Valley has become hell on earth for many of its inhabitants, but Indians are unlikely to have to endure the same hellish condemnation as Israelis. *The sole Jewish state on the planet is proving a wonderful lightning rod for Islamic militants  and their misguided liberal-leftist allies  in a way that the Indian-administered state of Jammu and Kashmir could never be.

Raw economic factors reinforce such inconsistencies.

People may be killed like poultry in Kashmir, as in Tibet, but even progressive Western politicians are too chicken to jeopardize their countries rapidly expanding commercial connections with either India or China. Of course, little Israel isnt anywhere near as lucrative a marketplace. Consequently, a Kashmiri (or a Tibetan) life will continue to count for far less than that of a Palestinian.

Why isn?t India a pariah state?


----------



## bc040400065

*Look inside, stop blaming us: Pak replies to India*


NEW DELHI: *Unfazed by New Delhis strongly worded rebuff, Islamabad continues its unrelentless efforts to internationalise the ongoing situation in Jammu and Kashmir. *

*Islamabad has asked New Delhi to introspect on its policies instead of blaming Islamabad for the violence in the state. *Pakistans Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit said on Saturday that India should adhere to accepted human rights standards rather than stereotypically blaming Pakistan. 

Wise to Islamabads efforts, New Delhi has drawn attention to the possibility of rise in infiltration and terror activity while using the violence in the state as a cover. The government has clarified that the situation in the northern state is an internal matter. Indias Army chief VK Singh warned that Pakistan might try and take advantage of the unrest in Jammu and Kashmir. 

General Singh has suggested the possibility of a link between increased incidences of infiltration and the unrest in the Kashmir Valley. The Army chiefs alert comes a day after New Delhi took on Islamabad for its gratuitous statements on Jammu and Kashmir. In its strongly worded response, New Delhi had asked Islamabad to concentrate on dismantling the terror infrastructure on its territory and take action against cross-border inflitration. 

New Delhis response followed by the Army chiefs comment have sought to bring the spotlight back on terror. 

Islamabad has attempted through its statement on gross and systematic abuse of human rights and Indian repression to turn international attention on the situation in Kashmir. There has been no statements from international leaders on the protests in the state. It has been largely seen as Indias domestic concern. A fact that New Delhi made clear in its response to Pakistan foreign minister Mahmood Shah Qureshis comment. The external affairs ministry in its statement had said that Pakistans gratuitous statements amounted to interference in the internal affairs of India. 

Mr Qureshis attempt to put Kashmir on the table was firmly dealt with by India. 

Unwilling to lose the opportunity accorded by the ongoing violence in the Valley, the pakistani foreign office persisted in its efforts to internationalise the issue. *Jammu and Kashmir is an international dispute and the subject of several UN Security Council resolutions. Instead of stereotypically blaming Pakistan, India should undertake serious introspection of its policies that are in sharp variance to its international commitments, including adherence to accepted human rights standards, *Mr Basit said. 


Look inside, stop blaming us: Pak replies to India - The Economic Times


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## nForce

Pasban said:


> Are you referring to this particular piece of news or the Kashmir issue in general?



My question is in relation to deployment of more troops under the present circumstances....


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## bc040400065

*Indian Kashmir Death Toll Reaches 100*


*&#65279;New violence in India-controlled Kashmir on Saturday raised the death toll at least 100 since anti-government protests began sweeping the region in June.*

Government forces say they killed two people in separate incidents on Saturday.

*Police killed one person taking part in a funeral procession that was defying a curfew. Thousands joined the funeral in Anantnag, south of Kashmir's main city of Srinagar. The funeral was for a man who residents claim drowned in a river after being chased by police. Authorities say police opened fire on the procession after mourners tried to set fire to the house of a pro-India politician.*

Troops also opened fire on hundreds of stone-throwing protesters in Palhalan, northwest of Srinagar, killing one person.

Also Saturday, a man shot by police in clashes earlier this week died in a Srinagar hospital.

Authorities relaxed a strict curfew in parts of Srinagar Saturday, six days after imposing the indefinite order. The eased restriction allows resident to leave their homes to buy essentials.

The government has deployed the army into Kashmir as part of a joint security strategy with police to crack down on separatist protests.

Authorities fear the violence will escalate even more on September 21, when hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani has urged followers to stage protests outside army camps.

New Delhi is sending a cross-party delegation to Kashmir, perhaps as early as Monday, to learn first-hand about tensions in the region.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has accused separatists of orchestrating and inflaming some of the unrest. He has called for dialogue among all parties to bring calm to the Muslim-majority region.

*Protesters are seeking to gain independence from mostly Hindu India or to merge with Muslim-majority Pakistan.*

Kashmir is divided between India and Pakistan, but both countries claim the entire region.

Google News


----------



## HAIDER

SRINAGAR: Three more protesters died on Sunday in Indian-administered Kashmir as violence against rule from New Delhi deepened, according to police. 
The protesters died in two separate hospitals Sunday after being injured on Saturday and last week in clashes with Indian security forces in three different districts of the valley, a police spokesman said.

Government forces have been battling months of violent demonstrations in the mainly Muslim region that were ignited by the police killing of a 17-year-old student on June 11.

A total of 105 protesters and bystanders including children have been killed, mostly by security forces firing on demonstrators after being pelted with stones. One policeman has also died.

On Saturday, police and paramilitary forces fired on fresh anti-India demonstrations in Kashmir, killing three protesters and injuring over a dozen.

Fifteen police and paramilitary forces were also injured during day-long clashes in the valley.

Authorities briefly relaxed the strict curfew on Saturday in most parts of Kashmir to allow locals to stock up on food and medicine.

Clashes erupted between Indian police and protesters at three places, police said, but no casualties were reported.

On Sunday, police sealed neighbourhoods with barbed wires and asked residents to stay indoors. Anyone violating the curfew will be dealt with sternly, roared announcements made by loud-speaker fitted police vehicles in Srinagar.

Scores of people at Srinagar's main hospital pleaded with security forces to be allowed to go to their homes to bring medicines and water for the patients but their pleas were ignored.

Locals living near the hospitals have been distributing free food among the attendants, while patients continue to get food from the hospital. But there are no life-saving medicines and drinking water.

DAWN.COM | World | Three more protesters die in Kashmir


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## IndianArmy

What is The need for opening another thread when there is dedicated Thread already on Kashmir Violence???


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## Markus

IndianArmy said:


> What is The need for opening another thread when there is dedicated Thread already on Kashmir Violence???



Exactly. There are countless threads running on Kashmir with the same thing being discussed in many of them.


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Well definitely IOK has past also which fortunately due to your occupation was very violent. Now with the same occupation in continuation and Kashmiri frustration on the boil it isn't a rocket science to understand how easy is it to make things worst in IOK. As far as Pakistan's turmoil is concern Pakistan has successfully weathered foreign sponsered terrorism in it's and can has every tendency to pay back in the same currency. With Pakistan very righteously claim on IOK, it is the best place to pay back the debt we have on our shoulders in IOK.



Bring it on my friend. 

If you believe India is sponsoring all the blasts that are happeneing in Pakistan these days thru TTP, then I guess you would also believe that Pakistan is losing this gruesome war of formenting insurgency with in each others' borders.

btw, since you mention Pakistan's claim on J&K being righteous, I assume you belong to majority of Pakistanis who want Kashmir as a part of Pakistan and not an independent state. Innit?




Areesh said:


> OH come one we know how strong you are. Even if we accept you are as strong as America(which you aren't), you can see what is happening to America in Afghanistan. With China's support in this region and situation very quickly changing in Afghanistan Pakistan can easily support Kashmiris independence movement in IOK in every manner. Even back than when Pakistan was supporting so called cross border terrorism in IOK Pakistan wasn't an economic giant and their was political turmoil in Pakistan. But with all this it forced it's enemies to bleed in it's rightly claim territory. In 70's we faced Balochistan problem and in 80's we forced our stinky enemy to bleed, now again we face problems in KP and Balochistan. And God knows how we might respond to our enemies when Indian will to continue it's illegitimate occupation and Kashmiri frustration add to our advantage.
> 
> 
> 
> That is exactly what I am trying to you and other Bharatis. IOK's supposed accession to Bharat was a blunder and should be rectified.



As I always say, ummeed pe duniya kaayam.. So keep on hoping. I dont know whether you have read a thread called monkey trap that I posted way back in Jan 2010. Its an interesting read though is from a forum most Pakistanis love to hate. That article was written in 2001 predicting how Pakistan is going to descend into chaos if it keeps following its Kashmir policy. Present situation in Pakistan must be giving a sense of vindication to the author of that article. Give it a dekkho..


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## IndianArmy

And Why isnt there a Neutral Source? Which Is Mandatory here I guess


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## Pasban

nForce said:


> My question is in relation to deployment of more troops under the present circumstances....



If it is deemed that a growing security problem exists in a region, it makes logical sense to heighten the presence of security forces by a state. However, in a political sense it means that there is evident further deterioration in affairs and the state either feels it is falling short of arms, or is need of a greater force to clamp down-- i.e an attestation that a very troublesome situation is mounting perhaps. In the perception of those who are protesting, it would invariably be seen as a show of force and this will be the view communicated to them by their own leadership.


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## HAIDER

How about White man source....its not biased ..every human life has its value..either side of border...and every death is news..

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/world/asia/19kashmir.html


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## Tayyab1796

May the shaheeds rest in peace ...amen


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## nForce

Pasban said:


> If it is deemed that a growing security problem exists in a region, it makes logical sense to heighten the presence of security forces by a state. However, in a political sense it means that there is evident further deterioration in affairs and the state either feels it is falling short of arms, or is need of a greater force to clamp down-- i.e an attestation that a very troublesome situation is mounting perhaps. In the perception of those who are protesting, it would invariably be seen as a show of force and this will be the view communicated to them by their own leadership.



Agree with you on all the points.my specific objection is to the AFSPA or the Armed Forces Special Power Act,that gives the armed forces unprecedented power over the civilians,kind of Marshal law.While the law is evil,but i also understand that it is a necessary evil,as it is hard for one to determine who is the one creating troubles and who is innocent.It is difficult job for the army and government of India,but then situation was far worse in not too distant past.

The situation must be brought back to normal and finally the AFSPA has to go.....


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## softtec

nForce said:


> Agree with you on all the points.my specific objection is to the AFSPA or the Armed Forces Special Power Act,that gives the armed forces unprecedented power over the civilians,kind of Marshal law.While the law is evil,but i also understand that it is a necessary evil,as it is hard for one to determine who is the one creating troubles and who is innocent.It is difficult job for the army and government of India,but then situation was far worse in not too distant past.
> 
> The situation must be brought back to normal and finally the AFSPA has to go.....



I feel AFSPA must go now or degrade it a lot.It just comes with lots of disadvantages(relating to current context).I think insurgency is very less now.Army deployment needs to be on the border area more. But the present crisis is nothing related to this directly, because Army not in the scene(except 2-3 days patrolling) at all. Its all police and protesters.But the clever pak members always deliberately refer to the indian army.


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## EjazR

Well lets not forget that in the last two years about 30000 troops both Army and CRPF were removed from Kashmir.

Recently even though the unrest is still going on, the 1500 RAF personnel have also been withdrawn. So its actually troops being removed and deployed in a cyclical pattern. But mostly its just the 50000 J&Kpolice and about 150000 CRPF personnel that do the crowd control part. This is for the entire population of 11million people

The Army is basically involved in COIN against Pakistani based militants and on the border of China and Pakistan.


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## Areesh

IndianArmy said:


> What is The need for opening another thread when there is dedicated Thread already on Kashmir Violence???



Because your continuous stream of killings and massacre hasn't ended yet. So got to open new threads for it.


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## IndianArmy

Areesh said:


> Because your continuous stream of killings and massacre hasn't ended yet. So got to open new threads for it.



Very Well then.... Since its not encouraged to do so here, I questioned, But if Rules Could be Softened for You, Then I am Helpless but watch.


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## SnIPeR Xr

DesiGuy said:


> I don't know how many times will i have to explain the reason.
> 
> btw, if you have checked my posts where i admit being indian, also check then my posts praising USA and bashing india.
> 
> btw, i am ateast admitting it, some ppl here in US won't even do that.
> 
> 
> I am a US citizen and Proud to be one.



You have to explain it many times.

I haven't seen those posts.But why bringing those when here in this thread your flags are saying something and your are saying otherthing.
What impression we can get.
That an indian hiding in US flag supporting some people.
For your information this is also a form of trolling.
If you are proud to be an American even if you Belongs to India.Then please dont post anything on threads related to Pakistan & India.By doing this you can favour your country alot and you can prove your loyality in front of americans that how much a Indian can love america by not indulging itself with anything related to India.

& please do point out those people.
As i know unlike you their each and every word shows that from where they belong.You know what I mean.


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## Nononsense

Star of David said:


> I think its important for India to start thinking of new routes at containing this "tamashe." Allow all Indians to live and work in Kashmir. Revoke their special status. Times have changed and tough decisions have to be made. It is not fair for the rest of India when Kashmiris can go anywhere in India to live and work. Our tactics need to change and adapt to the changing scenarios, the same way terrorists look at weaknesses to exploit any situation. Just take a look at how the West responds to riots. Sometimes even assassinations have to be taken for the overall good of the country. These separatists should be hanged or imprisoned immediately. A policy of photographing leaders and their cohorts should be taken immediately to interpret the bigger picture.



Guru ji , yeh konsi Govt karigi? None of the political parties have the guts to do this change. Muslim Vote bhi leni hai. 
..Kashmir no one wants to touch. They all feel ..let the next PM take the call. If you see the photos of the roiteer's they look much more affluent compared to our poor in east , Bihar , MP and Orrisa.

All of these stone pelting boys are wearing Denim Jeans, and nice shoes. Where rest of our country is half naked. 

Kashmir ka ek inch bhi azad nahi hoga. Jisko jana hai, they know how to cross borders.


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## Nononsense

TextMiner said:


> Ya, maybe i should have put up a picture of a Woman telling her son and neighbour kids to stop going school and pelt stones and chant "Azaadi, Azaadi" while she talks about the latest Saas-bahu twist in the Soap she regularly watches with her fellow like-minded women intermittently motoring "Azaadi" in between...That maybe could have been a better Avatar, i guess.
> 
> On a serious note, It is a picture of a Muslim woman who dresses her son as Lord Krishna for a school function in Patna on the occasion of Krishna-Janmashtami (The Day Lord Krishna was born) ; I thought it represented a certain undercurrent of the Indian social fabric.


Bhai yeh log nahi samjhenge. They have to come and really feel India.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## PanzerFaust

nForce said:


> Agree with you on all the points.my specific objection is to the AFSPA or the Armed Forces Special Power Act,that gives the armed forces unprecedented power over the civilians,kind of Marshal law.While the law is evil,but i also understand that it is a necessary evil,as it is hard for one to determine who is the one creating troubles and who is innocent.It is difficult job for the army and government of India,but then situation was far worse in not too distant past.
> 
> The situation must be brought back to normal and finally the AFSPA has to go.....




Totally agree, no matter how much AFSPA is needed, and no matter how much it is actually put into use, these things creates a psychological barrier in getting the local people in mainstream. However we have to abide by UN resolutions and all, but if India has to work towards securing J&K's future, things like article 370 autonomy , AFSPA have to go, albeit in a phased manner. 

Have recently visited ladakh, and Army in bordering areas of ladakh is opening up areas for tourists which were blocked till now, i guess its a good move of getting infrastructural inflow along with tourists, helps in prosperity and peace in the region along with our assertiveness on our land.

Although ladakh and kashmir cannot be compared for obvious reasons, but i really admire Ladakhi people, as they have created a great vibe and atmosphere conducive to tourism and that area is seeing more tourists than ever.


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## dabong1

EjazR said:


> Well the issue is that only the valley muslims want indepednance. So its not just muslims, more specifically the valley muslims.
> 
> That in a way makes the movement weaker as it is seen as a muslim sepratist movement. Mirwaiz and other realise that and keep insisting that this movement is for all religions but the ground reality is different.



If thats the case then the indian govt will have no problem in winning a UN vote........or is that when your facts and figures for support for india fall apart.
Like i said if its just the valley muslims that are against kashmir or just four didtricts in kashmir that want to be free then its only seems logical that the indian govt will not fear losing the vote in kashmir if put to the test.


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## dabong1

EjazR said:


> Well there are muslim majority districts in Jammu andcomprise almost 30% of the population. Similarly Ladakh is almost 45% mostly shia muslims.
> 
> The results of the survey are not new. It is the same results that we are seeing since the 2008 www.peacepolls.org or the Chatham house opinion survey.
> 
> However, we are still ignorant of any proper opinion surveys being conducted in Gilgit Baltistan to make an educated guess of what the entire historical J&K vote would look like. Maybe when GoP finally opens it up to media presence of Pakistani journalists are bold enough to that themselves will we see something.




So to put it simply......india would win a vote in kashmir if we go off your facts.

What are you scared off if your so sure your gonna win the vote?


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## Areesh

By: Rob Brown


> The Indian occupation of Kashmir between 1989-2009 has resulted in more than 70,000 deaths but there are no serious moves to delegitimize the country.
> 
> Most citizens of this country probably feel they already have quite enough on their plates dealing with Hizbullah and Hamas without pondering whats happening way off in the Himalayas. Current events in Kashmir do, however, deserve serious consideration, if only because dark and dangerous parallels between that conflict and the Israel-Palestinian one are being drawn by global jihadists, as well as by some influential international opinion-formers who should know better.
> 
> An intifada-style popular revolt is how The New York Times has portrayed the latest popular uprising against Indian occupation which has swept through this predominantly Muslim province this summer, making the breathtakingly beautiful Kashmir Valley appear even more of a paradise lost. Although not clad in keffiyehs, young Kashmiri teenagers can sometimes resemble their Palestinian peers as they throw stones at army patrols and dodge tear-gas canisters on the streets of the state capital, Srinagar.
> 
> *But what the world is never told by The New York Times, nor by most other supposedly liberal organs, is that New Delhis response to such civil disobedience has been far more savage and brutal than anything authorized in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv,* leading in the past to serious armed insurrection (often incited by Pakistan).
> 
> The Indian essayist Pankaj Mishra justly observed recently: The killing fields of Kashmir dwarf those of Palestine and Tibet. In addition to the everyday regime of arbitrary arrests, curfews, raids and checkpoints enforced by nearly 700,000 Indian soldiers, the valleys 4 million Muslims are exposed to extrajudicial execution, **** and torture, with such barbaric variations as live electric wires inserted into the penis.
> 
> A LEADING local NGO, the International Peoples Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice in Indian-Administered Kashmir, has reported that extrajudicial killings and torture are commonplace there. It claims that the Indian military occupation of that state between 1989-2009 has resulted in more than 70,00 deaths, and many of these killings were deemed acts of service by Indias feared Central Reserve Police Force, leading to promotion and financial reward (bounty is paid after claims made by officers are verified, apparently).
> 
> Still, there are no serious moves afoot in editorial corridors or academic campuses anywhere in the Western world to transform India into an international pariah. No calls for boycotts, disinvestment or sanctions against the worlds largest democracy.
> 
> The deafening silence over Kashmir speaks volumes about the double standards by which different governments around the globe are judged on their human rights records.
> 
> Partly this stems from the post-imperial guilt complex which continues to afflict so many citizens of the West.
> 
> The atrocities committed by former colonies are endlessly excused by loose-thinking liberals in London and Paris, however flagrant and ugly such abuses might be. On the extremely rare occasions when repugnant regimes are taken to task, the real responsibility for their brutality is usually reported to lie with external agents.
> 
> The Pakistani Marxist polemicist Tariq Ali recently regaled readers of the zealously anti-Zionist London Review of Books with the claim that the real cause of Kashmiris current suffering is the ever-evil IDF. It has been open season on Muslims since 9/11, when the liberation struggle in Kashmir was conveniently subsumed under the war on terror, he wrote. Israeli military officers were invited to visit Akhnur military base in the province and advise on counter-terrorism measures.
> 
> Ali gleefully quotes the Web site India Defense, which noted in September 2008 that Maj.-Gen. Avi Mizrahi paid an unscheduled visit to the disputed state of Kashmir last week to get an up-close look at the challenges the Indian military faces in its fight against Islamic insurgents.
> 
> Mizrahi was in India for three days of meetings with the countrys military brass, and to discuss a plan the IDF is drafting for Israeli commandos to train Indian counter-terror forces.
> 
> The concern isnt that such conspiracy theories are recycled on the pages of the LRB  a small, self-important literary journal  but they are also plastered across countless Islamofascist Web sites, reinforcing the dangerously warped worldview of some of the most dangerous people on the planet. In her days as director-general of the British security service MI5, Eliza Mannigham- Buller observed how jihadists are driven by a powerful narrative that weaves together conflicts from across the globe, [including] long-standing conflicts such as Israel-Palestine and Kashmir.
> 
> What this leading spook didnt add is that the crazed fury which results from such communal paranoia isnt directed with equal vehemence and violence against the various alleged perpetrators. The once heavenly Kashmir Valley has become hell on earth for many of its inhabitants, but Indians are unlikely to have to endure the same hellish condemnation as Israelis. The sole Jewish state on the planet is proving a wonderful lightning rod for Islamic militants  and their misguided liberal-leftist allies  in a way that the Indian-administered state of Jammu and Kashmir could never be.
> 
> Raw economic factors reinforce such inconsistencies.
> 
> *People may be killed like poultry in Kashmir*, as in Tibet, but even progressive Western politicians are too chicken to jeopardize their countries rapidly expanding commercial connections with either India or China. Of course, little Israel isnt anywhere near as lucrative a marketplace. Consequently, a Kashmiri (or a Tibetan) life will continue to count for far less than that of a Palestinian.
> 
> The writer is a British journalism educator, currently based in Ireland, who has been a visiting professor in India and has personally observed the situation is Kashmir.



Why isnt India a pariah state?


----------



## EjazR

Written in the Jerusalem Post. So now what the "zionists" write is right?

This is another example of how Israel would like to hide its atrocities in the garb of look how muslims are killing themselves as shias and sunnis. And look at the Arab-Iran conflict. What about KAshmir and Xinjiang and Chechnya? No one talks about that.

Don't look at us using Phosphorous bombs, and helicopter gunships and F-16s in Gaza and West bank because obviously the Indians are maybe doing that too? Wrong, even in the height of insurgency the Indian army used only infantry whereas Pakistan under the FCR regulations has used F-15s and helicopter gunships to fight its insurgency completely demolishing entire villages.

Pakistanis, should realise that; while not reducing the gravity of the humanitarian situation and hardships in Kashmir which is bad; comparing that with the Palestinian issue where people have been dispossesed from their land and are living in an apartheid conditions is an insult really. There is no quantum of comparison with the Palestinians. Kashmiris are not being dispossesed, they have the right to elect their leaders and send the leaders to the parliament, they can move freely throughout India without getting special permits. I could go on and on ofcourse but this should suffice for the intelligent.

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## Moorkh

its not just a question of being scared of the result. we might be confident of victory, but cant be sure.

i believe there are two basic arguments against a plebiscite. 
1) the demographics of the erstwhile kingdom of J&K which is the territory under dispute has been undeniably changed. there is a sizable population of punjabis and pathans which has sttled in the pakistani side of the LoC. on the indian side, there has been a demographic change with several of the kashmiri pandits having left the state to live in the rest of India. also since 1989 an armed insurgency has been in place, surely not a very impartial situation to conduct a plebicide which was supposed to take place several decades ago under very different conditions.

2) India recognizes J&K as part of its territory. the constitution does not allow for any part to be given the choice to secede from the country. its simply not legal for any government to conduct such a plebiscite. and even if a special amendment is invoked to make the plebiscite in J&K legal, the law will apply to all other parts and then i will be able to sit down with my neighbors and declare my mohalla as an independent country.


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## Omar1984

Srinagar, India (CNN) -- Three youths who had been critically wounded in unrest in Indian-administered Kashmir died Sunday, and a 25-year-old woman died after a late-evening incident in the town of Sopore.

Sunday's deaths put the toll from unrest in Kashmir at 105 lives since June 11.

The Sunday-evening incident occurred when Indian security forces opened fire to quell a stone-throwing mob in Bomai village near Sopore in north Kashmir, authorities said.

A police spokesman said the woman was in critical condition when she was taken to the capital, Srinagar, for treatment but she died there.

A round-the-clock curfew was re-imposed late Saturday evening after a the curfew had been relaxed for a few hours in parts of the capital. Stone-throwing mobs clashed with security forces in some areas of the old city.

Thousands of police and paramilitary troopers are dotting the streets Srinagar to strictly enforce the curfew ahead of the crucial visit by an all-party delegation to Srinagar Monday.

Security has been particularly beefed up in view of the visit of the delegation.

The delegation, representing a cross-section of the political spectrum of India, will include India's finance minister, Pranab Mukherjee, and the Indian home minister, P. Chidambaram, in addition to representatives from the main opposition party and other parties.

The delegation, which will be in Srinagar for two days for an on-the-spot appraisal of the unrest, is likely to meet leaders of various pro-India parties.

Representatives from trade and commerce and other groups also are likely to meet the delegation.

The hard-line separatist leader, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, spearheading the ongoing agitation in Kashmir has already announced his decision not to meet the delegation, saying, "The mandate of the delegation is limited to talking within the framework of the Indian constitution."

Muslim-majority Kashmir is claimed by both India and Pakistan. India deployed thousands of troops in Kashmir to guard against what Indian leaders believe was a Pakistan-backed insurgency that began in late 1980s.

That insurgency, which India says claimed more than 43,000 lives, is no longer raging but the troops have remained and new separatist unrest broke out in June.

Geelani has scaled down his sit-in program outside army garrisons and has now instead asked people to hold peaceful protests at district levels to demand complete withdrawal of Indian troops from Kashmir.

Ali Mohammad Sagar, a senior minister of the state government, welcomed the decision of Geelani saying "it will save the precious lives."

Thousands of people joined the funeral of the three youths who died Sunday.

The three had been injured last week when security forces fired in the towns of Awantipore and Anantnag in south Kashmir and in Tappar in north Kashmir.

*Aside from the 105 deaths, the unrest has left hundreds wounded, many of them critically.*


Death toll in Kashmir at 105 as four die Sunday from injuries - CNN.com


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## Omar1984

Iran expresses concern over Kashmir crackdown
Tehran Times Political Desk


TEHRAN -- Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Ramin Mehmanparast has expressed concern over the crackdown in Indian-administered Kashmir, in which a number of Muslims have been killed. 


Cracking down on the protests will only increase Muslims anger, Mehmanparast said on Saturday. 

Thousands of people staged massive demonstrations in several districts of Kashmir on Thursday to voice their anger over the desecration of the Quran in the United States. 

Fourteen Kashmiri Muslims and an Indian police officer were killed during the protests. 

Terry Jones, the pastor of the Gainesville, Florida-based Dove World Outreach Center church, had intended to set the Quran on fire on the ninth anniversary of the September 11, 2001 attacks against the United States but cancelled his plan due to international pressure and criticism. 

However, a copy of the Quran was burned by a U.S. citizen on September 12. 

Since then, millions of Muslims have taken to the streets across the world to denounce the desecration of the Quran.


tehran times : Iran expresses concern over Kashmir crackdown

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## scrumpy

Are they done stoning that woman?


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## scrumpy

> Mehmanparast said that it was perfectly acceptable for Muslims to react to the desecration of the Qur'an and said countering such reactions could be interpreted as supporting acts of sacrilege.



You mean it is perfectly acceptable to burn an unrelated school just because someone threatened to burn some book half a world away? 

Ohh. Press TV. They have an axe to grind.


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## Omar1984

*Govt silences Kashmir press, silently*

Srinagar, Sept 29: Not surprisingly though, the National Conference-Congress coalition government in Jammu and Kashmir has earned an ignominious distinction of having imposed an undeclared ban on the Kashmir-based newspapers, time and again&#8212; exactly like it imposed undeclared curfew across the Valley.
If the government has over 100 civilian killings in 100 days to its credit, it is, off late, being known for having imposed severe restrictions on publication of the Valley-based newspapers to muzzle the truth and deny people the necessary information. And this has not happed for the first time, but many times since it took over the reigns of the state.
As if humiliating, beating and abusing Kashmiri journalists was not enough, the state government has so far maintained a criminal silence over why the newspapers have been banned for the past one week in particular, and frequently in the past too.
So far even the Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, his cabinet colleagues and babus have not even bothered to look into the issue, though all of them would repeatedly beat the drum of press being the Fourth Estate which needs to be respected and allowed to function smoothly.
While all that appears to be a bunch of lies, given the ground realities, it is the journalists&#8212;the Valley-based journalists to be precise&#8212;who have to bear the brunt of police and CRPF terror on the streets. As if all this was less a humiliation, the government has issued the so-called curfew passes, which are torn to pieces by the government forces manning the roads.
On Saturday, when newspapers decided to resume their publications after seven days of undeclared ban on them, the police and paramilitary forces thrashed and abused the staffers, though they carried a valid &#8220;curfew pass&#8221; issued by the District Magistrate Srinagar. The state government&#8217;s &#8220;influence&#8221; on ground got exposed when the forces tore to pieces the &#8220;red-colour special curfew passes&#8221; and even abused those who have issued them. You can call it the uselessness of a government which is not able to control a constable on the streets! And while some journalists had a close shave at many places, the newspaper distribution was yet again disallowed, making the media organizations run in losses worth millions of rupees.
The police hassles come despite repeated, rather almost daily, assurances by the government functionaries that journalists won&#8217;t be harassed and the newspapers&#8217; distribution won&#8217;t be stopped. The former principal secretary to the Chief Minister, Khursheed Ahmad Ganai is among the officers to give such assurances.
Ironically, the state wants its functions to be covered, caring little on how the journalists would attend the functions and press conferences. On Sunday, a cabinet minister was seen calling journalists, asking them to attend his press conference amid stringent curfew. But how it was possible, only the minister can answer.
GROUND SITUATION
On Saturday evening, three staffers of Greater Kashmir and Kashmir Uzma were ruthlessly beaten by policemen at Kaka Sarai in Old City. They were travelling in the office vehicle which was intercepted by police. The staffers were asked to show their curfew passes and identity cards which they did. So far so good. All of a sudden a policeman started beating a staffer who was admitted to the Bone and Joints Hospital after the staffers fled from the spot. This is not the first incident of its kind. The incidents are too many to be narrated on a newspaper, given the space constraints. And it has not happed with GK and Uzma alone, but with almost all newspapers, journalists and photo-journalists&#8212;but of course, barring the &#8220;darling non-local journalists&#8221; of the state government.



PGK PROTESTS BAN, SUSPENDS PUBLICATIONS
Irked by the government inaction, the Press Guild of Kashmir (PGK) Sunday strongly condemned the ban imposed by the government on the publication of Kashmir-based newspapers and other media institutions.
At an emergency meeting held here under the chairmanship of PGK president Bashir Ahmad Bashir, the members deplored the government action to create a situation under which the newspaper publication had been put to halt from September 13 to 18, 2010. &#8220;Even as some of the media houses tried to resume the publication today but a reign of terror was let loose on them making the distribution of newspapers impossible. Several journalists and workers of Greater Kashmir, Rising Kashmir, Kashmir Uzma andBuland Kashmir were ruthlessly beaten by the police and some of them were taken to a hospital,&#8221; said the PGK general secretary in a statement here. &#8220;Several thousand newspapers are lying in the respective offices as police chased the distributors and hawkers in their offices during the wee hours. This has made the intentions of government clear that it does not want that the newspapers to be published from Kashmir. This has resulted in huge losses to this industry but also deprived the masses of necessary information during this situation of crisis.&#8221;
The meeting also condemned the recent attacks on the journalists and ban of local TV news networks.
The meeting was attended by the representatives of Greater Kashmir, Rising Kashmir, Kashmir Uzma, Srinagar Times, Aftab, Uqab, Nida-e-Mashriq, Chattan, Kashmir Images, Buland Kashmir and Kashmir Life.



GOVT IGNORES SNUBS
The media in Kashmir has been gagged despite the fact that this government has been repeatedly snubbed by media commissions and organizations over the issue.
On September 17 the South Asia Media Commission (SAMC) called on the government to lift an undeclared ban on the media in Kashmir Valley. &#8220;After the recent wave of violence that took 18 lives, an 18-hour long curfew was imposed in the valley. No newspaper&#8212;English or Urdu&#8212;could be distributed in the last three days in the wake of strict curfew and security situation,&#8221; Kumar Ketkar, Chairman of SAMC and Najam Sethi, its Secretary General, had said. &#8220;Authorities have also banned local channels from airing news bulletins and ordered cable operators to take off the air all unregistered channels. The incidents of thrashing of journalists and tearing their curfew passes by men in uniform show how crippled the media is in Kashmir. Unrest should not be an excuse to restrict journalists from reporting in consequences of lack of information.&#8221;
The SAMC took a serious note of the violations of freedom of press and freedom of movement and considered suspension of publications as a blow to media rights. "We ask the government to uphold democratic values in Kashmir, and order the forces to facilitate journalists and let them perform their duties. We express our support and solidarity with the Kashmiri people and journalists and expect a democratic attitude from the government,&#8221; they added. But no action was taken.
Earlier on August 4, the Press Council of India (PCI), a quasi-judicial body issued a show-cause notice to the Jammu and Kashmir chief secretary SS Kapoor asking him to explain the curbs on publication of newspapers as well as preventing journalists to conduct their professional duties during the current phase of unrest.
The full-council meeting headed by its chairman Justice GN Ray took note of a complaint filed by three Kashmir-based newspaper organisations and an appeal issued by Delhi-based J&K journalists to intervene to preserve freedom of press in Kashmir Valley.
The Council had also taken a suo-moto notice of press reports related to thrashing of journalists. The organisations who had filed the complaint included Press Guild of Kashmir, Kashmir Press Association and Press Photographers Association. A PCI member had said the show-cause notice was first step to initiate action against authorities and officials who prevented press to perform its duties.
In a joint complaint the four leading media organisations representing over 60 newspapers, photographers and channels alleged harassment from the authorities of Jammu and Kashmir government and para-military forces particularly the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF). &#8220;Harassing journalists and forcing newspapers to suspend their publications has become a handy tool in the hands of authorities, during crises. In the immediate past it happened during 2008 Amarnath land row agitation and lately now during the current phase of agitation. Instead allowing free flow of information, authorities force people to rely on speculations and rumours, which in no way helps calming tempers or situation,&#8221; the complaint added.
Seeking immediate action of the PCI for the sake of freedom of press, the complaint mentions the sequence of events that happened in Kashmir since July 6, leading even to closure of newspapers.
In July this year a media viewed with concern the curbs on media by the Jammu and Kashmir government. The India chapter of the South Asia media commission asked authorities to restore normal functioning of journalists in the Kashmir. "The restrictions of the type announced will only prove counter-productive. As we know from our experience of the emergency period, it will not serve any useful purpose either in the immediate or long-term context," Chairperson of the India chapter of South Asia commission K K Katyal said in a statement.
On September 17, the Reporters Without Borders said, &#8220;Trying to maintain order should not be confused with preventing the media from working The Jammu and Kashmir state authorities and the security forces that are enforcing the curfew are failing to consider the importance of the local media&#8217;s work, or else there is an undeclared intention to prevent Kashmir&#8217;s media from operating during the protests.&#8221;

Govt silences Kashmir press silently Lastupdate:- Mon, 20 Sep 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com


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## Omar1984

SRINAGAR: All Party Hurriat Conference (APHC) leader Mirwazi Umar Farooq has said that the Kashmir dispute is a political issue, not administrative.

Speaking to SAMAA on the phone, he said the Indian government will have to give Kashmiris their rights of self-determination.

He regretted the appalling silence of the international community over human rights abuses being committed by the Indian authorities in held-Kashmir.

Farooq said that India cannot suppress the struggle of Kashmiri people through power or by sending a parliamentary delegation. SAMAA 



.:: SAMAA - Mirwaiz regrets world silence on Kashmir abuses


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## BATMAN

scrumpy said:


> Are they done stoning that woman?



You are right their stoning grant you the right of ethnic cleansing of Kashmiris.

If indian govt. have balls than why don't they make their stoning official as they did your killings.

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## Urbanized Greyhound

apparently he has no regret whatsoever for either the ethnic cleansing suffered by the Kashmiri pandits over the decades or the thousands of IA soldiers sacrificed by GOI in an attempt to prevent cross border infiltration.....if the media gets even a shred of evidence that he is on the payroll of the ISI like so many others of the hurriyat.....the GOI should arrest him without fail......a real hypocrite if there ever was one.......

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## moha199

scrumpy said:


> Are they done stoning that woman?



I knew some one will try to blame them now for their bad work... Indians Indian Indian admit your fault and stop your government please,

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## Omar1984

Srinagar: A little over two weeks ago, Sheikh Yasir, Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front(JKLF) leader Yasin Malik's cousin was fired upon by a policeman when he and his four friends were playing carom outside his home. Yasin Malik's nephew was also injured in the firing.

On Friday, a huge crowd gathered as a father bid a final farewell to his only son, Sheikh Yasir affectionately called Raju , showering almonds and sweets on the body.

The policeman who fired at the boys has been arrested and the police acknowledged that the action was unprovoked but not before the event sparked off widespread outrage and protests.

However, in sharp contrast the Friday's funeral was peaceful marked only by muted quiet mourning. Instead of curses or shrieks, the women of the family came out and sang wedding songs.

Raju was just 30 and as people prepared for his funeral, it appeared that they were bidding farewell to a groom. Just as the family had made it clear that there was to be no violence.

"If you are followers of Prophet Mohammad then just sing for him. Let us send him off like a bridegroom, shower sweets on him, and sing for him," said Sheikh Yasir's father Mohammad Rafiq after the funeral. 

This passionate appeal for peace and non-violence came on a day when the valley saw fresh violence. Three more people were killed allegdly in firing by security forces, taking the toll to over 100 in last 3 months.


Kashmir: A father's tearful adieu to his son, fervent appeal for peace

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## scrumpy

BATMAN said:


> You are right their stoning grant you the right of ethnic cleansing of Kashmiris.
> 
> If indian govt. have balls than why don't they make their stoning official as they did your killings.



You have a group of people out rioting. At that point, the soldiers who were meant to protect the buildings decided to shoot these protesters who were hell bent on destroying property, possible attacking the soldiers themselves. You call this ethnic cleansing in your part of the world? Are your soldiers in the Northwest of Pakistan where they are facing terrorists ethnic cleansing too? 

Are you defending some fanatics who use the pretext of someone burning a book to destroy some one else's property?

Just because they say that the stoning of the woman is official or endorsed by their religion, it doesn't make it correct. What balls are they displaying when they talk of stoning a woman for the crime of adultery?

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## Desert Fox

these indians are very strange lot indeed! When they want to make friends with Iran for their own interest they talk sweet, but when they no longer need them they talk bitter!

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## Respect4Respect01

scrumpy said:


> Are they done stoning that woman?



what are u done killing kashmiris?


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## Omar1984

ISLAMABAD  PML-N Quaid Nawaz Sharif has called upon the international community to take notice of the continued human rights violations in the Indian Occupied Kashmir.

Obama Administration has an important role to play in the resumption of dialogue process between Pakistan and India as well as in the resolution of all outstanding issues including Jammu and Kashmir, the former prime minister said while talking to the US Special Envoy for Afghanistan and Pakistan Richard Holbrooke who called on him here on Friday.

Punjab Chief Minister Mian Shahbaz Sharif, Opposition Leader in the National Assembly Ch. Nisar Ali Khan and Senator Ishaq Dar were also present in the meeting.

The PML-N Quaid also urged Holbrooke to support Pakistans efforts to finalise a Free Trade Agreement with the US and to encourage greater American investments in Pakistan, especially in its energy and power sectors, as these will have a direct bearing on the countrys economy and peoples well-being.

Nawaz noted that aid packages were for limited goals and serve only as the stopgap arrangements. Whereas the greater trade and foreign investments help in strengthening the countrys economy and generating employment opportunities, which reduce the likelihood of the youth turning towards militancy and extremism, he added.
He emphasised the need that the Obama Administration should finalise the understandings envisaged in the Trade and Investment Framework Agreement, as well as for early approval by the US Congress of the legislation relating to the Reconstruction Opportunity Zones.

Ambassador Holbrooke assured the PML-N Quaid that the US viewed Pakistan as an extremely important country that deserved the help and assistance of the entire international community, in its efforts to confront militancy and to strengthen its economy. 

He was of the view that the Obama Administration and US Congress were committed, on a long-term basis to supporting Pakistan and developing its institutions.

The visiting dignitary said that the US was also supportive of Pakistans efforts to normalise its relations with India, adding this was essential not only for peace and stability in the region, but also for both the countries to tackle the many challenges confronting them.

He lauded the former Prime Minister for his support and efforts to forge cordial and cooperative relations between Pakistan and India.


Nawaz urges US to take note of HR abuses in IHK | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## Desert Fox

scrumpy said:


> You have a group of people out rioting. At that point, the soldiers who were meant to protect the buildings decided to shoot these protesters who were hell bent on destroying property, possible attacking the soldiers themselves. You call this ethnic cleansing in your part of the world? Are your soldiers in the Northwest of Pakistan where they are facing terrorists ethnic cleansing too?
> 
> Are you defending some fanatics who use the pretext of someone burning a book to destroy some one else's property?
> 
> Just because they say that the stoning of the woman is official or endorsed by their religion, it doesn't make it correct. What balls are they displaying when they talk of stoning a woman for the crime of adultery?



first of all Kashmir is occupied and disputed territory which mean you indians are killing people on their own land which is occupied by your army against the will of the Kashmiris!


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## scrumpy

SilentNinja said:


> first of all Kashmir is occupied and disputed territory which mean you indians are killing people on their own land which is occupied by your army against the will of the Kashmiris!



Aren't we talking of the same Quoran burning incident here? I am pointing out the hypocrisy of the situation here. Is the Foreign minister saying that it is ok to burn a building a school or whatever because someone threatned your God/Book/Whatever. 

Where does the Foreign minister make a statement about a disputed territory??

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## Respect4Respect01

scrumpy said:


> You have a group of people out rioting. At that point, the soldiers who were meant to protect the buildings decided to shoot these protesters who were hell bent on destroying property, possible attacking the soldiers themselves. You call this ethnic cleansing in your part of the world? Are your soldiers in the Northwest of Pakistan where they are facing terrorists ethnic cleansing too?
> 
> Are you defending some fanatics who use the pretext of someone burning a book to destroy some one else's property?
> 
> Just because they say that the stoning of the woman is official or endorsed by their religion, it doesn't make it correct. What balls are they displaying when they talk of stoning a woman for the crime of adultery?



lol u kidding me protecting? why are the killing innocent people who got no weapons and just want freedom, n these soldiers with big weapons killing them for no big reason, i mean they can be stopped by other ways not by just shooting them straight in the head? thats what you call protecting.


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## scrumpy

respect4respect01 said:


> lol u kidding me protecting? why are the killing innocent people who got no weapons and just want freedom, n these soldiers with big weapons killing them for no big reason, i mean they can be stopped by other ways not by just shooting them straight in the head? thats what you call protecting.



You mean some one hell bent on destroying property should be allowed just because they are not carrying any guns?

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## Respect4Respect01

scrumpy said:


> You mean some one hell bent on destroying property should be allowed just because they are not carrying any guns?


first of all human lives are more important than property, and secondly they are destryoing their own property in Kashmir in their own country, why is india involved in this S.H.I.T

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## ares

moha199 said:


> I knew some one will try to blame them now for their bad work... Indians Indian Indian admit your fault and stop your government please,



It always a good habit to *"Practice, what you preach"*

Otherwise world will call you a hypocrite, and this stands true for both Pakistan and Iran..please introspect your actions before pointing other's.

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## Respect4Respect01

scrumpy said:


> You mean some one hell bent on destroying property should be allowed just because they are not carrying any guns?



and dude thats like if some one breaks my cell phone and i shoot him in the head? thats just stupid...

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## scrumpy

respect4respect01 said:


> first of all human lives are more important than property, and secondly they are destryoing their own property in Kashmir in their own country, why is india involved in this S.H.I.T



For Indians, Kashmir is Indian. 

The duty of a security force is to provide security to people as well as infrastructure. I am sure if it was the Pakistani security forces in a similar situation where a crowd of people protesting the burning of a book at a place half way around the world decided to burn a public building. They would have acted in the same way.

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## Respect4Respect01

ares said:


> It always a good habit to *"Practice, what you preach"*
> 
> Otherwise world will call you a hypocrite, and this stands true for both Pakistan and Iran..please introspect your actions before pointing other's.



yo we know india is hypocrite , u dont have to tell us smart a.s.s


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## scrumpy

respect4respect01 said:


> and dude thats like if some one breaks my cell phone and i shoot him in the head? thats just stupid...



Do you think the issue was about a cell phone? I would imagine most people would have not cared about someone burning of a book half a world away too.

What would you have done if you had a gun and someone was burning your house in front of you?

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## Respect4Respect01

scrumpy said:


> For Indians, Kashmir is Indian.
> 
> The duty of a security force is to provide security to people as well as infrastructure. I am sure if it was the Pakistani security forces in a similar situation where a crowd of people protesting the burning of a book at a place half way around the world decided to burn a public building. They would have acted in the same way.



Kashmir is Pakistan too, 

and as said those Kashmiris are not killing any indians, and wud indians just sit there and watch if someone was trying to burn Geeta or something


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## ares

BATMAN said:


> You are right their stoning grant you the right of ethnic cleansing of Kashmiris.
> *
> If indian govt. have balls than why don't they make their stoning official as they did your killings*.



You did not make an ounce sense, up there. Perhaps you might try using less 'high-figh' english, for the sake of us simpletons.


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## Respect4Respect01

scrumpy said:


> Do you think the issue was about a cell phone? I would imagine most people would have not cared about someone burning of a book half a world away too.
> 
> What would you have done if you had a gun and someone was burning your house in front of you?



first of all i wudnt do something bad that wud cause ppl to burn m house, and india killed innocent ppl and thats why they r paying the price,


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## scrumpy

respect4respect01 said:


> Kashmir is Pakistan too, and as said those Kashmiris are not killing any indians, and wud indians just sit there and watch if someone was trying to burn Geeta or something



Let me ask you the same question I asked the previous poster. 

What would you have done if you had your gun in hand and you were watching some one burn your house?

Please go read the statement the minister made again. He never any where mentions that Kashmir is a disputed territory. The event he describes is one where a mob decided to burn down something just because they heard rumours that some one burned a Quoran somewhere. He says that they were justified in acting the way they did because they are religious. Does that make any sense????

About the Geeta. I am sure I have had chana wrapped in pages of the geeta. I don't think the chanawala got killed for it.

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## JanjaWeed

i would ask my indian friends not to bother indulging in a debate here. there was a thread opened on the same topic earlier & didn't get much response either. it's only a statement from iran's low level official & doesn't mean that the issue is internationalised. afterall iran itself is a pain in the backside of countries who really matter. don't lose your sleep over it.

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## scrumpy

respect4respect01 said:


> first of all i wudnt do something bad that wud cause ppl to burn m house, and india killed innocent ppl and thats why they r paying the price,



Look at the minister's statement again and check the reasoning he gives for the mob acting the way they did. Any police force anywhere in the world would have acted in the exact same manner.


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## hecj

StreetHawk said:


> i would ask my indian friends not to bother indulging in a debate here. there was a thread opened on the same topic earlier & didn't get much response either. it's only a statement from iran's low level official & doesn't mean that the issue is internationalised. afterall iran itself is a pain in the backside of countries who really matter. don't lose your sleep over it.





[/COLOR]


StreetHawk said:


> i would ask my indian friends not to bother indulging in a debate here. there was a thread opened on the same topic earlier & didn't get much response either. it's only a statement from iran's low level official & doesn't mean that the issue is internationalised. afterall iran itself is a pain in the backside of countries who really matter. don't lose your sleep over it.









india should call to israel and u.s to search for their nukes.


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## somebozo

As much as I like press tv something they cross the limit of logic!


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## Respect4Respect01

scrumpy said:


> Let me ask you the same question I asked the previous poster.
> 
> What would you have done if you had your gun in hand and you were watching some one burn your house?
> 
> Please go read the statement the minister made again. He never any where mentions that Kashmir is a disputed territory. The event he describes is one where a mob decided to burn down something just because they heard rumours that some one burned a Quoran somewhere. He says that they were justified in acting the way they did because they are religious. Does that make any sense????
> 
> About the Geeta. I am sure I have had chana wrapped in pages of the geeta. I don't think the chanawala got killed for it.



well dude first of all burning the Quran were not rumors, that old a.s.s was serious because he was a racist, n secondly dude if i wouldn't do some stupid thing that i wud have others burn my house like i wudnt go to other ppls house n capture their property n stuff, so yes thats what india is doing btw


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## Respect4Respect01

hecj said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> india should call to israel and u.s to search for their nukes.



usa and israel is not the only countries who have nukes, think hard my friend, u might find some other countries with nukes too


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## scrumpy

respect4respect01 said:


> well dude first of all burning the Quran were not rumors, that old a.s.s was serious because he was a racist, n secondly dude if i wouldn't do some stupid thing that i wud have others burn my house like i wudnt go to other ppls house n capture their property n stuff, so yes thats what india is doing btw





> Please go read the statement the minister made again. He never any where mentions that Kashmir is a disputed territory. The event he describes is one where a mob decided to burn down something just because they heard rumours that some one burned a Quoran somewhere. He says that they were justified in acting the way they did because they are religious. Does that make any sense????



In this case, you say the Indian Government did bad things. Can you point out how was the Indian government responsible for a preacher in the US burning a Quoran? Wouldn't this be similar to some one burning your house down because the cricket team lost the match. What would you do in this case?

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## hecj

respect4respect01 said:


> usa and gayiserial is not the only countries who have nukes, think hard my friend, u might find some other countries with nukes too



btw we are talking about iran now.so i named iran.u.s also have eyes on you lady.so when time will come ,you will be in the same picture.


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## Respect4Respect01

scrumpy said:


> In this case, you say the Indian Government did bad things. Can you point out how was the Indian government responsible for a preacher in the US burning a Quoran? Wouldn't this be similar to some one burning your house down because the cricket team lost the match. What would you do in this case?



dude why are u repeating same thing about burning, it not about burning its about killing innocent ppl, a 11 year old kid was killed with a tear bomb. and dude READ that post clearly, Iran said that it might cause a chaos in Muslim world because some Muslims are killed in Kashmir,
basically Iran is just helping india and warning them that this might lead to some huge problems, 
im not racist or anything but yeah dude thats all


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## Respect4Respect01

respect4respect01 said:


> dude why are u repeating same thing about burning, it not about burning its about killing innocent ppl, a 11 year old kid was killed with a tear bomb. and dude READ that post clearly, Iran said that it might cause a chaos in Muslim world because some Muslims are killed in Kashmir,
> basically Iran is just helping india and warning them that this might lead to some huge problems,
> im not racist or anything but yeah dude thats all



dude g2g ttl bro, peace out


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## karan.1970

respect4respect01 said:


> and dude thats like if some one breaks my cell phone and i shoot him in the head? thats just stupid...



Dude.. You can not predict where the riot will stop if the sec forces dont intervene. You saw Karachi a few weeks back. Because the sec forces did not intervene in time, over 90 people got killed in the span of 3 days. So if the choice is between letting harm come to civilians in their homes vs the idiots who are on the street indulging in riots, the choice is a no brainer.


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## Donatello

Is India even allowing any foreign diplomats/journalists in there? Because unless someone actually goes there, no honest word can be heard.


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## BATMAN

This thread will go unnoticed as this news was ignored by our Indian members.
Normally, Indian members notice every tit and bit happening in Pakistan while they missed 105 extra judicial killings and thousands of civilian injured and many hundred children abducted.


----------



## Donatello

Omar1984 said:


> Srinagar: A little over two weeks ago, Sheikh Yasir, Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front(JKLF) leader Yasin Malik's cousin was fired upon by a policeman when he and his four friends were playing carom outside his home. Yasin Malik's nephew was also injured in the firing.
> 
> On Friday, a huge crowd gathered as a father bid a final farewell to his only son, Sheikh Yasir affectionately called Raju , showering almonds and sweets on the body.
> 
> The policeman who fired at the boys has been arrested and the police acknowledged that the action was unprovoked but not before the event sparked off widespread outrage and protests.
> 
> However, in sharp contrast the Friday's funeral was peaceful marked only by muted quiet mourning. Instead of curses or shrieks, the women of the family came out and sang wedding songs.
> 
> Raju was just 30 and as people prepared for his funeral, it appeared that they were bidding farewell to a groom. Just as the family had made it clear that there was to be no violence.
> 
> "If you are followers of Prophet Mohammad then just sing for him. Let us send him off like a bridegroom, shower sweets on him, and sing for him," said Sheikh Yasir's father Mohammad Rafiq after the funeral.
> 
> This passionate appeal for peace and non-violence came on a day when the valley saw fresh violence. Three more people were killed allegdly in firing by security forces, taking the toll to over 100 in last 3 months.
> 
> 
> Kashmir: A father's tearful adieu to his son, fervent appeal for peace




Good post.

I guess your Signature goes well with it.


----------



## somebozo

NO it was a job of Pakistani ISI to provoke anti India feelings in IOK..seriously where are the Indian fanboys they are fast to defend their republic of hypocrist??

The Kashmiris dont want to, will not and never want to live as Indians. They are Kashmiris and proud. 63 years has not changed much others than lot of people killed prematurly and many other deprived of developments.

May Allah liberate Kashmir!


----------



## Je suis de retour

penumbra said:


> Good post.
> 
> I guess your Signature goes well with it.



Dont thank him over it. It shows that you liked over it that someones son had died in kashmir.


----------



## Leonidas

Kakgeta said:


> Border crossings in Kashmir can never be stopped if India keeps the AFSPA in effect.


Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA): Under this Act, all security forces are given unrestricted and unaccounted power to carry out their operations, *once an area is declared disturbed*.
The AFSPA didn't need to be implemented if Kashmir was peaceful & there is no insurgency, which is more in the favour of our people in that state. But guess what, then it is not favourable to our dear neighbor in the west. How would that part will break away from India & merge into Pakistan if its peaceful and people there are having a nice life.. 



Kakgeta said:


> The people of Pakistan occupied Kashmir see their brethren being killed and they obviously are enraged by what they see and so they act.


Isn't it the official policy of pakistan that it will not let its territory be used by those elements that cause trouble in any neighboring country? So if Pakistan occupied Kashmir is paksitan's territory then its the responsibility of pakistan to wipe out such elements that are causing trouble in Indian state of J&K. 



Kakgeta said:


> During the Musharraf era, Kashmir was peaceful and therefore infiltration was also at a minimum.



Your exact words rearranged to make more sense. 
"Infiltration was at a minimum during the Musharraf era and therefore Kashmir was peaceful."




Kakgeta said:


> BTW, in 47 Pakistan sent forces after Indian troops intervened to squash a Civil Uprising.



That's absolutely wrong, dear sir. Here's the correct version of history - BBC NEWS | South Asia | Kashmir: The origins of the dispute

_ In October 1947, Pashtun tribesmen from Pakistan's North-West Frontier Province invaded Kashmir._

Now i know that u might say that BBC always writes in an anti-pakistan manner then how about listening to Asghar Khan, born before partition, ex Air Chief Marshal of PAF & a veteran politician. I think he might be knowing far more than people like us. 

Here - 




Watch it carefully, he makes a lot of sense.



Kakgeta said:


> 65, I admit was Pakistan's fault.


Agreed 



Kakgeta said:


> 99, please do not take it out of context it was only about kargil, never about kashmir.



Really...???


----------



## Leonidas

respect4respect01 said:


> usa and *gayiserial* is not the only countries who have nukes, think hard my friend, u might find some other countries with nukes too


Post reported...
"Don't do anything to others that you don't want for yourself."


----------



## Star of David

Hey Pakistani's Pakistani's and Iranians....don;t worry about our country we'll take what measures we think is right to deal with a law and order issue. Simple. I would suggest you keep a close eye on your country's crisis. Iran better think twice before we start giving full support to the opposing team in the UN.


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## BATMAN

^^OA Indians........are you suggesting Pakistanis should stop reading Iranian news?


----------



## Sinnerman108

Skeptic said:


> After coming across several claims of Pakistani suport to Independent Kashmir, and the moral high ground frequently claimed by some members (Including Admins like Asim), I have conducted an exhaustive research and have not come across a single incident of this view being propagated or even suggested in official channels.
> 
> Infact, the pre condition for holding ANY office in so called Azad Kashmir is to swear to an Oath :
> 
> 
> This applies to positions from president, Prime minister, Minister, Speaker, MPs , MLCs etc.
> 
> Additionally, (2) *No person or political party in Azad Jammu and Kashmir shall be permitted to propagate against, or take part in activities prejudicial or detrimental to, the ideology of the States accession to Pakistan.*
> 
> Link: http://www.ajkassembly.gok.pk/AJK_Interim_Constitution_Act_1974.pdf (Official Constitution of so called Azad KAshmir)
> 
> This essentially means any pro-independence group will not be allowed to be established or survive on Pakistani specially Kashmiri land. Even a group supporting accession to India will not be allowed.
> 
> Can you explain this and give me a single incidence of Pakistan officially supporting the cause of Independent Kashmir?? Leave alone supporting, even identifying it...
> 
> I am not speaking about random press quotations which are easily denied but formally documented and concrete actions. Has this view ever been iterated at any international meet.
> 
> The support to right of "Self Determination" has a catch - it has only 2 options India and Pakistan.
> 
> If I have overlooked certain incident, be kind enough and bring it to my notice or else quit taking this moral high ground.
> 
> Thanks and regards,



this great discovery of yours is not worth any thing ...
did you go on and discover that what you have proudly highlighted is also a part of other oaths in the country ?


----------



## DesiGuy

oh, ca'mon. shut up. 

that is nothing compare to how many Muslims have been killed in Iran.


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## Skeptic

salman108 said:


> this great discovery of yours is not worth any thing ...
> did you go on and discover that what you have proudly highlighted is also a part of other oaths in the country ?


Did you read the post?? It clearly mentions it is part of Oath of all office bearers in the country... Counld you comprehend what was the question asked?? It was not to justify the constitution of so called Azad Kashmir - but proof of Pakistani support to Independent Kashmir.



Kakgeta said:


> A referendum was held and we acknowledge that according to the UN GB is still a disputed region and the region will be available for plebiscite whenever the time is right.



Kindly enlighten me... When was this referendum held. I dont know about it.

Pakistan foreign office has something else to say about GB:


> ?Pakistan?s 5th province?: ?Gilgit-Baltistan has no connection to Kashmir? | Pakistan Daily


----------



## Enigma

BATMAN said:


> ^^OA Indians........are you suggesting Pakistanis should stop reading Iranian news?



read it!!! but dont byheart and recite it infront of us again and again...we know what our govt is doin..

we simply cannot lose kashmir, (laaton ke bhoot baaton se nai maanengay) 

 what kind of logic is that ? some morons said that they wud burn quran so these samples of morons (kashmiri's) set their own houses in protest...???

and i really dont understand y these kashmiri's want independence, its their fortune to say that they are part of country like India, where future is brilliant, what wud they get by independence??? (now dont tell me freedom)

if kashmiri's settle down peacefully they cn see progress automatically, yah until the sick brainwashed and dumb jihadis are annihilated from the valley..


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Six more Kashmiris killed by Indian forces today ​*
Written by KMS 
Sunday, 19 September 2010 19:03 



Srinagar, September 19, 2010: Indian forces in their fresh act of state terrorism, martyred four more innocent Kashmiri youth, today, at Panar in Bandipore area of Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK). The troops shot dead the youth in a vindictive operation after the killing of a trooper in the area.

On the other hand, four more Kashmiri youth, who were injured in the firing of Indian police and troops during the recent anti-India demonstrations at different places, succumbed to their injuries in various hospitals.

The occupation authorities continued to impose curfew and other restrictions in Srinagar and other major towns for the eighth successive day, today. Indian forces beat up journalists at Kaka Sarai and Press Enclave in Srinagar who were performing their professional duties.

On the other hand, the Chairman of APHC Syed Ali Gilani has appealed the people to hold demonstrations at their respective district and tehsil headquarters on Tuesday, September 21.

Syed Ali Gilani had asked Kashmiris to stage protests outside Indian army camps in their areas as a part of "Quit Kashmir Movement ". In a statement issued in Srinagar, Syed Ali Gilani said that the change in the protest programme was made due to the apprehensions that Indian agents were trying to sabotage the protests and dub the ongoing agitation as violent movement.

He urged India to accept Jammu and Kashmir as a disputed territory before initiating dialogue process to settle the lingering dispute. Gilani said that India&#8217;s intransigent stance on Kashmir was the main hurdle to resolve the longstanding dispute Ruling out his meeting with the Indian delegation headed by Home Minister, P. Chidambaram, he deplored that on one hand, India talked about dialogue, while on the other, its troops were killing innocent Kashmiris. He called upon the people to place banners and placards calling for demilitarization of the occupied territory during the visit of Indian delegation.


Syed Ali Gilani regretted that Indian troops were indiscriminately spraying bullets on unarmed and peaceful demonstrators in the territory.

Four other youths, who were injured in the firing of Indian police and troops during the recent anti-India demonstrations at different places, succumbed to their injuries in various hospitals, taking the death toll since June 11 to 114. The martyred included Bilal Ahmed Najar of Islamabad, Shabir Ahmed Dar of Chakoora, Pulwama, Muhammad Amin Ganai of Tappar, Pattan and Ali Mohammad Waza of Palhalan, Pattan.

The occupation authorities continued to impose curfew and other restrictions in Srinagar and other major towns for the eighth successive day, today. Indian troops beat up staff members of local dailies at Kaka Sarai in Srinagar, injuring one of them critically. The injured was admitted in Bones and Joint Hospital at Barzulla.

The shortage of life- saving drugs due to continued curfew and restrictions imposed by the authorities across OSJK is severely risking the lives of patients. Moin Mehraj at Al-Noor Medical shop in Soura Hospital, told mediamen that the retailers had exhausted about 90 percent of life-saving drugs because the stockists had not been able to distribute the drugs during the last six days due to restrictions.

Arshid Hussain Butt, an office bearer of Srinagar Chemists and Dealers Association, said that the dealers were not able to distribute the available stocks due to the strict restrictions imposed by the authorities. &#8220;The life-saving drugs do not last for long at the medical shops. We are helpless as we can not move out to supply the drugs,&#8221; he maintained.

Medical Superintendent of Soura Hospital, Dr Syed Amin Tabish, said that there was an acute shortage of essential drugs at medical shops due to the prevailing circumstances. &#8220;There are many patients who are suffering from gastroenteritis, acute infection, hypertension, diabetes and heart diseases who need drugs regularly. Some patients may succumb if they could not get the medication for a day,&#8221; he added.

The women organizations in India, Independent Women's Initiative for Justice and Saheli and women rights activists have strongly condemned the reinstatement of four Indian police officials involved in tampering evidence in Shopian **** and murder case. In a press statement, they maintained that the police right from the beginning tried to dismiss the **** and murder of the two Kashmiri women, whose badly bruised bodies were found in Rambiara Nallah in Shopian on May 30, 2009.


They said that the police refused to lodge First Information Report (FIR) and made all possible efforts to tamper with the evidence in the case. The statement was endorsed by Warisha Farasat, Lena Ganesh, Kalpana Mehta, Navsharan Singh, Narjees Nawab and Anand Chakravarti.

The statement termed the reinstatement of the officials as the mockery of justice system. &#8220;It goes against the very spirit of justice and fair play. It also highlights the impunity enjoyed by the men in uniform and their absolute patronization by the occupation authorities as well as by India,&#8221; it added.

Castigating the puppet administrations for not conducting an impartial enquiry into the incident, it demanded to bring all the four cops to justice without any further delay.

Six more Kashmiris killed by Indian forces today

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## S_O_C_O_M

Isn't this the same Israel that indians praise so much? Accordingly all indians should respect this article and praise the author.


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## bandit

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Isn't this the same Israel that indians praise so much? Accordingly all indians should respect this article and praise the author.



Oh man, not this stupidity again; did all the Israeli people say that, did the government elected by majority of Israelis say that, any leader representing Israel criticise India. No. People like you really need to know how democracy works. Anybody can speak against the government if he feels like, but, its the government elected by the majority that makes policy decisions and makes official statements that count as something, not Individual op-eds.

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## HAIDER

It seem the only way India can keep control in Kashmir, through ARMY. India has still time to have respectable evac. How long Indian army keep hostage situation in Kashmir.


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## silent hill

sad news, really sad day fo kashmiris and for humanity


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## Canaan

absolutely hideous
seems India has been taught well by Israel


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## brahmastra

MarktheTruth.

What can you expect from an anti India site.
Atleast post credible source.


----------



## Kompromat

brahmastra said:


> MarktheTruth.
> 
> What can you expect from an anti India site.
> Atleast post credible source.



Can you deny the news ?

Another act of state terrorism , Pathetic !


----------



## ares

Black Blood said:


> Can you deny the news ?
> 
> Another act of state terrorism , Pathetic !



Yes 
It is case of biased media reporting with manipulation of figures 

BBC News - Kashmir clashes continue as residents defy curfew


----------



## RobbieS

Mirwaiz, Malik not to meet all-party team

Mon, Sep 20 12:39 PM

Srinagar, Sep 20 (IANS) Hurriyat leader Mirwaiz Umer Farooq Monday said he will not meet the all-party delegation from New Delhi visiting Jammu and Kashmir, saying it was 'a facade'. Separatist leader Yasin Malik will also not meet the delegation.

Finally deciding against meeting the team which arrived Monday, the Mirwaiz -- who heads the so-called moderate wing of the Hurriyat -- said the visit was 'a facade and a joke'.

People's Democratic Party (PDP) president Mehbooba Mufti told IANS that the party had decided to send its delegation led by senior leader Muhammad Dilawar Mir to interact with the team.

'The visit has been hijacked by the ruling party,' she said, referring to the ruling National Conference.

Muhammad Yasin Malik, chairman of the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF), Monday said he would not meet the delegation but his group had forwarded a memorandum addressed to the team.

'They should understand the heartbeats of the Kashmiri people and go back,' Malik said. 'This visit has no utility if they just want to come here and go back.'

An all-party delegation led by Home Minister P. Chidambaram arrived here Monday to get a first hand impression of the situation in the Kashmir Valley where 102 civilians have died mostly in firing by security forces since June 11.


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## RobbieS

Wrong step. They should have gone. First they accuse the govt of inaction. When the govt sends a team, they dont want to meet it.


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## karan.1970

^ This will backfire on them, just the way earlier boycott of legislative election backfired.


----------



## EjazR

Srinagar, Sept 19: The loss caused to the government property during the clashes earlier past week has been estimated to exceed over Rs 90 crores.
*Kashmir Images :: Details*


The Minister for Agriculture who visited the area today to assess the loss said that no doubt heavy loss of property can be reciprocated by rebuilding new infrastructure but those who have lost their precious lives have left us mourning forever. He directly blamed the instigators of violence for creating a situation as a result of which people die and property is destroyed.
Addressing people, he said that it is unfortunate that one shameful act committed by one mad person at USA has been made an excuse to burn the entire infrastructure in Tangmarg.
The people of Tangmarg who are already suffering as a result of their loss of horticulture and agri-production and also lost their livelihood due to collapse of tourist rush to Gulmarg, have now become miserable wreck due to devastation of the economic infrastructure.
He said that not only every reasonable person including entire Muslim community condemned the shameful act of sacrilege of holy Quran but in Tangmarg this situation has been exploited to harm interests of people in general and incited the emotions to the extent that precious lives were lost due to these instigators.
He asked what sin has been committed by those thousands of widows, orphans and handicapped who were drawing monthly emoluments from Social Welfare department at Tangmarg and presently all their records are under ashes. Who will feed them in absence of records? he questioned.
He said, You people were always demanding that funds under NREGA/IAY should be released to the poor labourers and NREGA card holders but unfortunately these callous people have not spared these offices too.
He asked why Tourist reception Centre, Guest Houses which were meant for reception of tourists of the world and why such structures which are symbol of traditional Kahsmiri hospitality were set on fire.
He said the Range Office of Forest department was meant for distribution of timber to the poor and needy people but entire range office record including sanctions issued were also set on fire. Who will suffer on this account? he questioned.
------------------------------

Tangmarg belongs to the Budgam district which is mainly shia majority and was relatively calm compared to other major urban centres until the airing of the Quran burning on Iranian PRESS TV.


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

*Kashmiri Separatists Refuse to Meet Indian Delegation*​


> SRINAGAR: *An all-party group of Indian lawmakers visited violence-wracked Kashmir on Monday but key local leaders refused to meet them and said New Delhi had no answers to the region's crisis.*
> 
> More than 100 civilians have been killed in three months of clashes that have pitched stone-throwing protesters against the security forces, who have frequently opened fire with live ammunition.
> 
> Prime Minister Manmohan Singh held an emergency all-party meeting last week, which decided to send the 37-member delegation to Kashmir to talk to local politicians and business groups in an effort to ease tensions.
> 
> It is the first time that ministers or mainstream political leaders have visited the region since the demonstrations began in June.
> 
> *But hopes that the visit could break the cycle of violence were undermined by the decision of Kashmiri separatist leaders to reject the offer of face-to-face talks.*
> 
> Syed Ali Geelani, the veteran separatist who has organised the almost daily demonstrations throughout the summer, rejected any meeting, saying nothing positive could emerge from it.
> 
> *Other separatists Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Yasin Malik also declined to meet with the all-party delegation, their supporters told reporters on Monday morning.
> 
> &#8220;It is a farce that they come here, saying they are assessing the situation, when everyone knows that innocents are being killed and the curfews have turned much of Kashmir into a jail,&#8221; Farooq told AFP.*
> 
> &#8220;We can not support these half-hearted gestures that are just to make the government look as if they are serious.&#8221;
> 
> Mehbooba Mufti, leader of the state government opposition, said she would send party members to the talks at a conference centre in Srinagar, but would not attend herself.
> 
> &#8220;They know my views, and we have not changed any policy,&#8221; she said, adding that a strict curfew across Kashmir should be lifted immediately.
> 
> The delegation from New Delhi, led by Home Minister P. Chidambaram, also planned to meet representatives of the struggling tourism industry and other businesses, according to officials.
> 
> &#8220;We have to talk to each other. And those who have grievances against the government have to talk to the administration,&#8221; Prime Minister Singh said last week.
> 
> *But solutions to the unrest in Kashmir, home to a 20-year insurgency against Indian rule, appear as distant as ever, with public resentment hardening with each civilian death.*
> 
> Delegates did not speak to the media early Monday, but Pawan Kumar Bansal of the ruling Congress party said Sunday that they would be getting &#8220;direct feedback from the ground&#8221;.
> 
> &#8220;I will not raise the expectations. It is part of a long-drawn process which we have to carry out,&#8221; he said.
> 
> Among the delegates was Arun Jaitley, a senior figure in the main Hindu nationalist BJP opposition, which opposes making any security or political concessions to separatists.
> 
> In the wave of rallies that began on June 11, paramilitary troops have regularly opened fire after coming under attack from anti-India protesters throwing rocks and stones.
> 
> *Many of those killed have been young men or teenagers, and news of each death has brought more people on to the streets and led to further deadly clashes with the security forces.*
> 
> Police said a 22-year-old woman bystander was killed during protests on Sunday evening in the northern town of Sopore, bringing the number of civilians to have died to 106.
> 
> *Curfews and strikes have shut down Srinagar and many other towns for weeks at a time, with residents complaining of shortages of food and essential medicine.*
> 
> Kashmir, a beautiful mountainous region in the Himalayan foothills, has been a regular flashpoint between India and Pakistan since the partition of the subcontinent in 1947.
> 
> The two rival nations fought wars over Kashmir in 1947-8, leaving it divided between Indian and Pakistani sectors, and again in 1965.




DAWN.COM | World | Kashmiri separatists refuse to meet Indian delegation


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

*Kashmiri Separatists Refuse to Meet Indian Delegation*​


> SRINAGAR: *An all-party group of Indian lawmakers visited violence-wracked Kashmir on Monday but key local leaders refused to meet them and said New Delhi had no answers to the region's crisis.*
> 
> More than 100 civilians have been killed in three months of clashes that have pitched stone-throwing protesters against the security forces, who have frequently opened fire with live ammunition.
> 
> Prime Minister Manmohan Singh held an emergency all-party meeting last week, which decided to send the 37-member delegation to Kashmir to talk to local politicians and business groups in an effort to ease tensions.
> 
> It is the first time that ministers or mainstream political leaders have visited the region since the demonstrations began in June.
> 
> *But hopes that the visit could break the cycle of violence were undermined by the decision of Kashmiri separatist leaders to reject the offer of face-to-face talks.*
> 
> Syed Ali Geelani, the veteran separatist who has organised the almost daily demonstrations throughout the summer, rejected any meeting, saying nothing positive could emerge from it.
> 
> *Other separatists Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Yasin Malik also declined to meet with the all-party delegation, their supporters told reporters on Monday morning.
> 
> &#8220;It is a farce that they come here, saying they are assessing the situation, when everyone knows that innocents are being killed and the curfews have turned much of Kashmir into a jail,&#8221; Farooq told AFP.*
> 
> &#8220;We can not support these half-hearted gestures that are just to make the government look as if they are serious.&#8221;
> 
> Mehbooba Mufti, leader of the state government opposition, said she would send party members to the talks at a conference centre in Srinagar, but would not attend herself.
> 
> &#8220;They know my views, and we have not changed any policy,&#8221; she said, adding that a strict curfew across Kashmir should be lifted immediately.
> 
> The delegation from New Delhi, led by Home Minister P. Chidambaram, also planned to meet representatives of the struggling tourism industry and other businesses, according to officials.
> 
> &#8220;We have to talk to each other. And those who have grievances against the government have to talk to the administration,&#8221; Prime Minister Singh said last week.
> 
> *But solutions to the unrest in Kashmir, home to a 20-year insurgency against Indian rule, appear as distant as ever, with public resentment hardening with each civilian death.*
> 
> Delegates did not speak to the media early Monday, but Pawan Kumar Bansal of the ruling Congress party said Sunday that they would be getting &#8220;direct feedback from the ground&#8221;.
> 
> &#8220;I will not raise the expectations. It is part of a long-drawn process which we have to carry out,&#8221; he said.
> 
> Among the delegates was Arun Jaitley, a senior figure in the main Hindu nationalist BJP opposition, which opposes making any security or political concessions to separatists.
> 
> In the wave of rallies that began on June 11, paramilitary troops have regularly opened fire after coming under attack from anti-India protesters throwing rocks and stones.
> 
> *Many of those killed have been young men or teenagers, and news of each death has brought more people on to the streets and led to further deadly clashes with the security forces.*
> 
> Police said a 22-year-old woman bystander was killed during protests on Sunday evening in the northern town of Sopore, bringing the number of civilians to have died to 106.
> 
> *Curfews and strikes have shut down Srinagar and many other towns for weeks at a time, with residents complaining of shortages of food and essential medicine.*
> 
> Kashmir, a beautiful mountainous region in the Himalayan foothills, has been a regular flashpoint between India and Pakistan since the partition of the subcontinent in 1947.
> 
> The two rival nations fought wars over Kashmir in 1947-8, leaving it divided between Indian and Pakistani sectors, and again in 1965.




DAWN.COM | World | Kashmiri separatists refuse to meet Indian delegation


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

scrumpy said:


> Are they done stoning that woman?



according at least to Iranian President, orders for the stoning never took place; dont know why he would renege on that promise

silly to bring that up here, no?


----------



## karan.1970

Omar1984 said:


> Iran expresses concern over Kashmir crackdown
> Tehran Times Political Desk
> 
> 
> TEHRAN -- Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Ramin Mehmanparast has expressed concern over the crackdown in Indian-administered Kashmir, in which a number of Muslims have been killed.
> 
> 
> Cracking down on the protests will only increase Muslims anger, Mehmanparast said on Saturday.
> 
> Thousands of people staged massive demonstrations in several districts of Kashmir on Thursday to voice their anger over the desecration of the Quran in the United States.
> 
> Fourteen Kashmiri Muslims and an Indian police officer were killed during the protests.
> 
> Terry Jones, the pastor of the Gainesville, Florida-based Dove World Outreach Center church, had intended to set the Quran on fire on the ninth anniversary of the September 11, 2001 attacks against the United States but cancelled his plan due to international pressure and criticism.
> 
> However, a copy of the Quran was burned by a U.S. citizen on September 12.
> 
> Since then, millions of Muslims have taken to the streets across the world to denounce the desecration of the Quran.
> 
> 
> tehran times : Iran expresses concern over Kashmir crackdown



I was trying to find a reference to slamming or condemning by Iran but couldnt. Can you point that out for me, or did you just named the thread on your whim... 

I dont know how this escaped the attention of the mods when the titles are changed even when those are copied verbatim from news articles because of lack of evidence.


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## KS

*First:*

*Palestine* - UN recognised right to indpendence,*Kashmir* - Un doesnt recognise independence

*Palestine* - Did any ruler formally accede to Israel - NO ; *Kashmir* - the Maharaja formally signed the instrument of accession to make it a part of India.

*Palestine* - are the Palestinians chased out from Palestine- yes ; *Kashmir* - are the Kashmiris chased outfrom Kashmir - no (if the Hindus/Sikhs/Jains qualify as "Kashmiris" then maybe Yes)

*Palestine* - is their territory being occupied by settlers - yes : *Kashmir* - is territory being occupied by Hindu settlers from rest of India - NO
*
Palestine* - do Tanks ,bulldozers regularly demolish homes,buildings - YES ; *Kashmir* - Have Tanks even come once inside SriNagar - NO

*Palestine* - Do attack Helicopters regularly fire missiles at anything moving - YES ; *Kashmir* - Does that thing happen here - NO

*Palestine* - IS any HAMAS leader safe from MOSSAD - NO ; *Kashmir* - IS any hair on the head of a separatist leader harmed - NO .Infact they are given treatment at the taxpayers expense in Delhi and Mumbai


*Palestine *- Do the Israeli police calmly bear all the stones thrown on them - NO ;* Kashmir* - Poor CRPF not even allowed to fire and given only a lathi in hand.

*Palestine* - IS there a shortage of basic materials - YES ; *Kashmir* - one of the least poor states in India with annual assitance going into thousands of crores.

*Palestine* - IS there any blockade of essential supplies in place - YES ; *Kashmir* - NO[/B]



> But what the world is never told by The New York Times, nor by most other supposedly liberal organs, is that New Delhi&#8217;s response to such civil disobedience has been far more savage and brutal than anything authorized in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv,



so basically the quoted part goes down the drain.

*Second:*



S_O_C_O_M said:


> Isn't this the same Israel that indians praise so much? Accordingly all indians should respect this article and praise the author.



Indians praise Israel,not some lonely figure sitting in Ireland pretending to be a columnist.

*Thirdly:*



> People may be killed like poultry in Kashmir, *as in Tibet*, but even &#8220;progressive&#8221; Western politicians are too chicken to jeopardize their countries&#8217;rapidly expanding commercial connections with either India or *China.*



The thread starter forgot to bold these particular words.So now what happens to the deeper than ocean friendship.?

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## mattoo

Kakgeta said:


> In short you will get nothing, because in reality we stand nothing to gain from this the only reason we have chosen to stick with Kashmir is because the people EXPECT us to.



Thank you for being honest and confessing that Pakistan can offer absolutely NOTHING (your words) to any Kashmiri who is not a particular type (Sunni) of muslim.

Ergo, if I were to become a Pakistani citizen, I can expect to become a second-class citizen. 




Kakgeta said:


> How can we turn a blind eye towards them ?



The problem is in your eye - it only seems to see Sunni muslims. You yourself said that you cannot offer anything to Kashmiris like me who are either Hindus, Sikhs, Bakarwals, Gujjars or Shias. Your eye has no problem with the Tibet issue however. 

By your own admission, you Pakistanis are just being opportunitic and have no moral base to advice anyone on anything.



Kakgeta said:


> P.S. If Kashmir does become a part of Pakistan, the "Hurriyat Types" will probably stop pestering you.



The Hurriyat Goons have raped and murdered many many Pandits. That is just another "pestilence" to you. Wow.

Any other Pakistanis here want to take another shot at my question?

I am a Hindu Pandit from Baramulla. Why should I support Pakistan. If I were to become Pakistani, what practical benefits will flow to me in terms of life, opportunities etc. I still have an open mind.


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## rsingh

In Kashmir Indian army and the Indian state is committing atrocities against Muslim this is what this article wants to say.
* If 700,000 soldiers are posted in Kashmir then how come the Kashmiri Pandits had to fled Kashmir.*
* First tell me does Israel give any economic aid to Gaza.- J&K has been receiving 8 times more grant money on per capita basis compared to other Indian states.*

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## Abu Zolfiqar

amazing how Sunni-Shiia is being brought up here.

as if Pakistan were the villain and targetting one over the other. It seems that the predominantly Muslim protestors in predominantly Muslim Kashmir see no discrimination of bullets; there was a Shiia procession that was violently quelled by indian army as well 

maybe you forgot


DAWN.COM | World | Sixty injured as Indian police stop Kashmiri Shia procession



Mattoo -- previously you were ''Kashmiri Pandit'' and you were banned. You know it, and so do I. Please stop repeatedly making usernames in order to troll here. There is a reason why you were banned in the first place.


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## deckingraj

Kakgeta said:


> Intervention to stop the fighting in Kashmir, we are in noway asking for international community to put diplomatic pressure on India to free Kashmir.



Sorry buddy but seems you are bit misinformed on this particular issue....Pakistan has repeatedly said for international community to intervene and help resolve the Kashmir issue...No one can put siplomatic pressure on India to free Kashmir and neither can pakistan ask for it....All they can ask is for international community to intervene and help resolve the issue....which is exact contradiction to GOI stand where she consider it as pure bilateral issue and don't want any third party role....Let's agree atleast on some very easy hard core facts, shall we???



> A referendum was held and we acknowledge that according to the UN GB is still a disputed region and the region will be available for plebiscite whenever the time is right.


Good to know that you consider Gilgit still part of J&K...My interactions with scores of senior Pakistani members includins mods gives a different picture...B/W i did not know that a rerendum was held there...Can yo u please share some links on it...Also was a similar refremdum held in P-O-K??? if not why??? Since you yourself said that Pakistan do consider Gilgit as part of J&K then why to separate out gilgit in the very first place?? 



> Nothing is impossible !


Easy said then done...whenever i said it is next to possible I always maintained that it is so complex that it's not feasible in today's world...since we will not be able to achieve a situation where we can have plebiscite which is *free and FAIR* to all the three parties i.e. India, Pak, People of J&K....


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## StingRoy

Hindustan Times is reporting that some senior members of the parliamentary committee did meet the leaders separately. Hopefully we will see some constructive measures from these dialogues.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Accept-J-amp-K-as-disputed-territory-for-talks-Geelani/H1-Article1-602578.aspx



> In a bid to break the current impasse, teams of the all-party delegation to Kashmir on Monday separately met Hurriyat leaders and gave them a patient hearing but the separatists insisted on withdrawal of army and asked the Centre to take bold decisions instead of being in a 'denial mode'.
> 
> Chairman of hardline faction of Hurriyat Conference Syed Ali Shah Geelani demanded that Jammu and Kashmir should be accepted as a 'disputed' territory as a pre-condition for starting the dialogue process with the Centre.
> 
> Interacting with five-members of the all party delegation which called on him at his Hyderpora residence in Srinagar, Geelani suggested that Parliament should constitute a committee to go into all the issues faced by Kashmiri people.
> 
> "We have given five-points for starting the dialogue process for resolution of Kashmir issue which includes accepting Jammu and Kashmir as a disputed territory," Geelani told the team led by CPI(M) leader Sitaram Yechury.
> 
> Among the other conditions laid down by the hardline leader include initiation of complete demilitarisation of the state, commitment from the Prime Minister to put an end to the killings and arrests of youths, unconditional release of all political prisoners and withdrawal of cases against youths.
> 
> He has also sought arrest and prosecution of security personnel allegedly responsible for killing of youths during the ongoing unrest.
> 
> During the interaction, which was held in full media glare, the hardline leader said the people of Kashmir were only demanding right to self-determination as promised by the leaders of the country from time to time.
> 
> "The Indian troops have no justification -- moral or legal - to occupy Jammu and Kashmir. We are not demanding secession of any legal part of India but only our right to self-determination," he said.
> 
> Yechury told Geelani that the delegation had come to convey their sympathies with the people of the Valley and for initiating a process to resolve the problem.
> 
> "It is necessary that peace should prevail in the Valley. Then we can discuss the disputes and issues," he said.
> 
> Lok Sabha MP Assadudin Owaisi also pleaded with Geelani to give peace a chance. The other members of the delegation included Ratan Singh Ajnala (Akali Dal), T R Balu (DMK) and Namo Nageshwara Rao (TDP).
> 
> Although the hardline faction of Hurriyat had rejected the invitation to meet the all party delegation, Geelani had said he would not turn away anyone from his door as it was not in line with the Kashmiri ethos and Islamic Traditions.
> 
> Moderate Hurriyat Conference chairman Mirwaiz Umer Farooq said Parliament should pass a resolution to put an end to the killings in Kashmir and for initiating a sustained dialogue process for resolution of the long pending issue.
> 
> Interacting with another all-party team at his Nigeen residence here, Mirwaiz told them the time had come for Parliament of India to take bold decisions with regard to Kashmir issue as the Centre has been in a constant state of denial mode.


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## hecj

Five-member team meets Geelani

they had a meeting


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## mattoo

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Mattoo -- previously you were ''Kashmiri Pandit'' and you were banned.



I seriously do not know who you are talking about since I have never posted here before. You may PM me and I'll be happy to put your doubts to rest.

Also, Abu, please note that my question remains unanswered.

It is my assertion that Pakistan has nothing to offer non-muslim Kashmiris like myself. If this is not the case, please let me know how my life will be better as a Pakistani citizen.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

mattoo said:


> I seriously do not know who you are talking about since I have never posted here before. You may PM me and I'll be happy to put your doubts to rest.
> 
> Also, Abu, please note that my question remains unanswered.
> 
> It is my assertion that Pakistan has nothing to offer non-muslim Kashmiris like myself. If this is not the case, please let me know how my life will be better as a Pakistani citizen.



we had a troll here just a few days back, claiming to be a hindu pandit from Kashmir. Do pardon me if I am incorrect. I get suspicious over such things, internet is never fool proof.

as for your question ---you may notice that I never suggested anything explicitly over Kashmiri ownership.

I was more in line with Pakistan Nation's official stance that Kashmir is disputed territory and must be treated thusly.

the fate of Kashmir should lie with the people of Kashmir ---namely the ones RESIDING in Kashmir


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## TextMiner

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> amazing how Sunni-Shiia is being brought up here.
> 
> *as if Pakistan were the villain and targetting one over the other.* It seems that the predominantly Muslim protestors in predominantly Muslim Kashmir see no discrimination of bullets; there was a Shiia procession that was violently quelled by indian army as well


The Shia-Sunni clashes are a perennial problem, whether in Kurram, Pakistan or in Baramulla, Kashmir.

And while, Shias are killed by the Indian army, the same Shias whom you mourn also send their men to join the Indian Army, who get killed by the very proxies of your country. Don't believe me, well read on *here*.


> The funeral north of Srinagar in Indian-administered Kashmir was just like those of countless others who have died violently over the past 20 years.
> 
> A Muslim killed in the insurgency was laid to rest in his ancestral graveyard in the village of Dub, north of Srinagar, on Tuesday, surrounded by thousands of mourners.
> 
> What made the ceremony unusual was that this was no militant who had died fighting the Indian army.
> 
> This was a Kashmiri who served with the Indian army and died fighting the militants.
> 
> Shabir Ahmed Malik was among eight Indian soldiers killed in a gun battle earlier this week with separatist militants in Kupwara.
> 
> 
> 
> 'Pained'
> 
> Over the past two decades, hundreds of Kashmiris have died while fighting for India.
> 
> Indian army and police officers carry the coffin of Shabir Ahmed Malik
> Mr Malik was a dedicated soldier of the Indian army
> 
> Among them are police officials and Ikhwanis, or "renegade" militants who have been persuaded or coerced - depending on who you believe - to abandon militancy and instead work for the Indian security forces. Most Ikhwanis were or are pariahs.
> 
> But Shabir, 21, joined the Indian army after passing his 12th class examination. He studied at the Sainik (army) School at Ganderbal.
> 
> Shabir's family and neighbours are proud of his army service.
> 
> "He has become a hero. He died an honourable death. I am so happy, although I am also pained at his separation," says Mohammad Yasin, a neighbour and friend of the dead man.
> 
> Mr Yasin says he still regrets not being able to join the Indian army with Shabir.
> 
> "I too went with him that day. But only three boys were selected. I was not taken because I was over age. I still feel so bad about it.
> 
> "Even now, I have a passionate desire to do something for my country like Shabir has done."
> 
> Mr Yasin says that the moving send-off given to Shabir has inspired many more youths in the village to join the army.
> 
> 'Fulfilled'
> 
> "I am 28," says Showkat Ahmed. "I have never in my life seen such a funeral. Such death is pride-worthy."
> 
> Mourners at Shabir Ahmed Malik's funeral
> Mr Malik's village showed huge pride in his army service
> 
> Such well-attended funerals are usually the preserve of militants killed by Indian troops.
> 
> Shabir's body was kept outside the "imambara" (Shia place of worship) and the villagers mourned beside it.
> 
> They beat their chests but unlike at the funerals of militants there was no slogan shouting.
> 
> The fact the villagers are minority Shia may in part explain their pro-India loyalties. Kashmir's insurgency over the past two decades has mostly been waged by Sunni militants.
> 
> Part of the Shia community has stayed away from the separatist campaign, although some leaders of the separatist movement do belong to the Shias.
> 
> The coffin was draped in India's tricolour before it was carried to the graveyard.
> 
> Shabir's brother, Ghiulam Mohammad, says: "I wanted him to become a doctor. But he had a passion for joining the army and was determined to complete his graduation so he could become an army officer.
> 
> "He was patriotic from his childhood. He wanted to do something for his country. His ambition has been fulfilled."
> 
> The villagers have been sharing the family's grief as well as its pride in what Shabir fought for.
> 
> "Every family here is bereaved. Every family is mourning," one villager said.



Now this is what i call ironic ; U hail from a country who kills the very people whom you want a part to be. Pakistan, since its genesis, has been targeting, one community/ethnicity after the other, whether it be Ahmediyas, Shias, Mohajirs or even Balochis. No wonder, the West does not want Kashmir to be independent, as they fear it might turn into another lawless FATA.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

TextMiner said:


> The Shia-Sunni clashes are a perennial problem, whether in Kurram, Pakistan or in Baramulla, Kashmir.



not a problem in the sense that there is outwardly a struggle of some kind between Shiias and Sunnis. Majority of Pakistanis don't think on sectarian prism; only a small minority do.

By the way, I hail from Kurram. Most of the disputes are tribal, though they later on -through stoked up emotions -take on sectarian dimension (mostly due to meddling and brainwashing from the enemies of Pakistani unity) -much of it from non-state elements and troublesome ''stakeholders'' in Afghanistan which is merely 8-10 km away




> Now this is what i call ironic ; U hail from a country who kills the very people whom you want a part to be. Pakistan, since its genesis, has been targeting, one community/ethnicity after the other, whether it be Ahmediyas, Shias, Mohajirs or even Balochis. No wonder, the West does not want Kashmir to be independent, as they fear it might turn into another lawless FATA.



what a preposterous, loosely-worded and factually incorrect statement. I wont even reply to such garbage.

As for Kashmir, little is talked about because the conflict is given not enough exposure or coverage to the world......now that violence is again spiralling out of control (worst since 1989) I think more and more people would be informed

through the recommendations I listed earlier, Pakistan can play an instrumental role in highlighting the crisis in occupied Kashmir....as it is a disputed territory between Pakistan and hindustan --it basically goes down to the ''my word versus yours'' approach.


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## TextMiner

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> not a problem in the sense that there is outwardly a struggle of some kind between Shiias and Sunnis. Majority of Pakistanis don't think on sectarian prism; only a small minority do.


To be frank, i detest bigotry and hatred, be it against Ahmediyas, or Shais or any other group who are in a minority and whose views are orthogonal to the majority. I consider such thugs to be even dangerous than the Taliban. That is why, it is very important to eradicate/reform all such laws which becomes a pawn in the hands of the majority e.g. Blasphemy Laws and Hudood Ordinance.





Abu Zolfiqar said:


> what a preposterous, loosely-worded and factually incorrect statement. I wont even reply to such garbage.
> 
> *As for Kashmir, little is talked about because the conflict is given not enough exposure or coverage to the world......now that violence is again spiraling out of control (worst since 1989) I think more and more people would be informed*


The entire free media of the world, including the Kashmiri press is given ample freedom to showcase the current turmoil in Pakistan ; Yet, the West is largely unconcerned. There are many reasons for them. And the majority are influenced by the banana-republic condition that Pakistan has been in since the GWoT. 

Let us start with the EU. In 2005, EU under Emma Nicholson conducted the Chathamhouse survey in which, the conclusive piece of statistic they gathered from the survey was that "Less than 1% of the Kashmiris want to be with Pakistan." Note that i am talking about the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir (It also mentioned only about 2% in the *Kashmir Valley* wanted to join India). But overall, the glaring statistic that came out was about 43% wanted to remain Independent. That is less than the majority figure. So this survey biases the EU which gives them less leverage on the situation.

The US will be stifled in its voices, and the more Pakistani voices gets shrill, the more US will urge it to fight its war in NW. So, Pakistan is in a double-whammy mode, both from TTP and from the NW thugs.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> through the recommendations I listed earlier, Pakistan can play an instrumental role in highlighting the crisis in occupied Kashmir....as it is a disputed territory between Pakistan and hindustan --it basically goes down to the ''my word versus yours'' approach.


Any pamphlets or other Propaganda that u distribute, will only be toilet paper for them.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

TextMiner said:


> To be frank, i detest bigotry and hatred, be it against Ahmediyas, or Shais or any other group who are in a minority and whose views are orthogonal to the majority. I consider such thugs to be even dangerous than the Taliban. That is why, it is very important to eradicate/reform all such laws which becomes a pawn in the hands of the majority e.g. Blasphemy Laws and Hudood Ordinance.



can't argue with any of that, I agree



> The entire free media of the world, including the Kashmiri press is given ample freedom to showcase the current turmoil in Pakistan ; Yet, the West is largely unconcerned. There are many reasons for them. And the majority are influenced by the banana-republic condition that Pakistan has been in since the GWoT.



please explain



> Let us start with the EU. In 2005, EU under Emma Nicholson conducted the Chathamhouse survey in which, the conclusive piece of statistic they gathered from the survey was that "Less than 1&#37; of the Kashmiris want to be with Pakistan." Note that i am talking about the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir (It also mentioned only about 2% in the *Kashmir Valley* wanted to join India).



so based on this survey --whose results are obviously more favourable to hindustan than to Pakistan --why is there a continued aversion to hold referendum? 



> The US will be stifled in its voices, and the more Pakistani voices gets shrill, the more US will urge it to fight its war in NW. So, Pakistan is in a double-whammy mode, both from TTP and from the NW thugs.



i disagree to a large extent; though i am not fan of our current govt. They dont stand for Pakistan's interest at all; it shows -- as does the frustration, annoyance and anger among Pakistanis for it.




> Any pamphlets or other Propaganda that u distribute, will only be toilet paper for them.



let the audience decide.....Again, I outlined steps which Pakistan should take (in my view). And in fact, I have already drafted a letter to DCM Aslam Khan whom I know personally. I do hope it will be given consideration.

guest speakers from Kashmir; political figures; NGO workers and independent media persons who have viewed first-hand atrocities committed by the occupational forces should have the chance to talk in front of the foreign audience. Seminars and Kashmiri cultural events should also be held, in order to turn it into a Kashmiri awareness event and not merely a gloom & doom depressing one. 

according to a friend of mine in Ankara, the Pakistan embassy already organized such an event. In fact, there were unregistered demonstrations in front of the hindustany embassy -which, incidentally (and quite ironically) is located on Cinnah Caddesi (Jinnah Boulevard, the longest one in Ankara) 






(off topic as hell --- but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnah_Caddesi)


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## TextMiner

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> so based on this survey --whose results are obviously more favourable to hindustan than to Pakistan --why is there a continued aversion to hold referendum?


This means, you have absolutely glossed over what i have written, and ur eye was transfixed on the Red Part. No wonder, a running joke among the PA in 1971 was that lets kill 3 million Bengalis and a Bicycle repairman, ppl will just gloss over the 3 million figure !!!

What i wrote clearly states that there is no majority view for Independence to Kashmir (standing at 43%) ; There is an even lesser view in AJK and J&K to join with India, and a further dimmer opinion on both of them in joining Pakistan.

But this was just put forth in the pov for EU so as not interfere with the current status-quo in Kashmir. It is just a pov ; not their official stand.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> * And in fact, I have already drafted a letter to DCM Aslam Khan whom I know personally. I do hope it will be given consideration.*


U can write to Hussain Haqqani, Hilary Clinton and even to Barack Obama for all i care ; the matters rest with the Union of India. Period.




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> guest speakers from Kashmir; political figures; NGO workers and independent media persons who have viewed first-hand atrocities committed by the occupational forces should have the chance to talk in front of the foreign audience. *Seminars and Kashmiri cultural events should also be held, in order to turn it into a Kashmiri awareness event and not merely a gloom & doom depressing one.*
> 
> according to a friend of mine in Ankara, the Pakistan embassy already organized such an event. In fact, there were unregistered demonstrations in front of the hindustany embassy -which, incidentally (and quite ironically) is located on Cinnah Caddesi (Jinnah Boulevard, the longest one in Ankara)



That is a very good initiative ; The goodness in Kashmir needs to be highlighted to the world to show what the world has been losing in Kashmir for the past 60 years. I would say that even India is a bit belligerent in its stand for the AFSPA ; so i might see that softening from 4 principal districts in the valley. But any compromise on the constitutional ambit, is going to be a strict no-no from the GoI. And the signals to the Delegation sent today, has largely been positive. So, I also see India working in favour of the Kahmiris. A win-win for the Kashmiris and the GoI.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

TextMiner said:


> This means, you have absolutely glossed over what i have written, and ur eye was transfixed on the Red Part. No wonder, a running joke among the PA in 1971 was that lets kill 3 million Bengalis and a Bicycle repairman, ppl will just gloss over the 3 million figure !!!



where did you read this joke? Does it exist or are you making up false propaganda?



> What i wrote clearly states that there is no majority view for Independence to Kashmir (standing at 43%) ; There is an even lesser view in AJK and J&K to join with India, and a further dimmer opinion on both of them in joining Pakistan.





> But this was just put forth in the pov for EU so as not interfere with the current status-quo in Kashmir. It is just a pov ; not their official stand.





> U can write to Hussain Haqqani, Hilary Clinton and even to Barack Obama for all i care ; the matters rest with the Union of India. Period.



this union seems to be at odds with Kashmir, perhaps it's the other way around --perhaps both ways.

Recent news reports would lead me to conclude that occupied Kashmiris feel no affiliation with the union when they say ''go back india''



> I also see India working in favour of the Kahmiris. A win-win for the Kashmiris and the GoI.



you would pardon me for laughing it off and treating this comment as comical relief from an otherwise stressful Monday, wouldnt you?


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## TextMiner

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> you would pardon me for laughing it off and treating this comment as comical relief from an otherwise stressful Monday, wouldnt you?


Naah...u have full liberty to enjoy your guffaws ; If my Government can joke, why cannot I ???!!!


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## Omar1984

ISLAMABAD, (SANA): The Pakistan Federal Union of Journalists (PFUJ) has condemned the virtual ban imposed by the Indian government on publication of Kashmir-based newspapers and other media institutions and declared that the media community would not allow any type of restrictions on the media and raise the issue before all the forums.

As per details, the Kashmir valley again had no newspapers on Monday due to restrictions on media persons imposed by the authorities without any justification and as it deprives the people at large from the basic and universal right to know.

Four newspapers were published on Sunday but their staff was allegedly beaten up and the distribution was affected, as per confirmed reports reaching the PFUJ Secretariat.

The PFUJ termed this act of the authorities a direct attack on independence of the media and appealed to international journalist community to raise their voice against such uncalled for arbitrary acts of the authorities.

The PFUJ pointed out that some of the media houses tried to resume publication on Sunday. But the police reportedly beat up several journalists and workers of four newspapers and some of them were taken to hospital.

Several thousand newspapers are lying in the respective offices as the police chased distributors and hawkers during early hours of Sunday, as per message communicated by the concerned journalists to the media.

It was further reported that the police and paramilitaries are preventing journalists from circulating and from going to their place of work.

The regional dailies were no longer being printed in Srinagar because of the curfew. Radio Kashmir had to cancel its morning press review because of the lack of newspapers,

Contrary to this highly objectionable situation, the authorities were facilitating the work of Indian journalists while imposing harsh restrictions on those who were based in the territory. They were virtually blocking the communication lines, on account of strictly imposed curfew,

The troops subjected the distributors and hawkers to brute force at Press Colony for distributing papers. The troopers at Kak Sarai area stopped cab of a local English daily and the staffers within were roughed up, the reports added. 

The puppet administration has directed the local channels to stop broadcasting news and current affairs programmes. Several foreign channels and those operated from Pakistan including Hadi TV, Noor TV and other Islamic Channels have been completely taken off air, the PFUJ regretted.

The PFUJ said that on the pretext of maintaining law and order in the area it is pity that media is being prevented from its professional assignments and duties, which is a deplorable act of the authorities.

Commenting on this alarming situation, the PFUJ said that this had made the intentions of Indian government clear that it did not want newspapers to be published from Kashmir.

This has resulted in huge losses to this industry and also deprived masses of necessary information during this crisis.

The PFUJ calls on world journalists organizations and all other media workers to join together to support unequivocally to journalists of Kashmir against the oppression they face.


PFUJ slams Indian ban on Kashmir newspapers


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## indiaworldpower

Now India has stated taking right step to stop the violence started by the seperatists.

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## hecj

why pfuj is frustrated?.what link they have with this?

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## EjazR

*Delhi goes to Srinagar  then tries to go the extra mile*

*Riyaz Wani
Srinagar*

After pressure from Jammu and Kashmirs mainstream political parties  especially the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP)  that New Delhi should be seen as going the extra mile, the all-party delegation, despite the boycott by separatists, sent teams to meet the three key Hurriyat leaders: hawk Syed Ali Shah Geelani, moderate Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and pro-independence Yasin Malik.

The very fact that the political establishment from New Delhi met the Valleys ruling separatist triumvirate, is being seen as a step forward.

All the meetings were held in the full glare of the media, and came after the two-day exercise began with Union Home Minister P Chidambaram promising the people of the state that their future, honour and dignity are secure as part of India.

The entire Valley was under curfew and Srinagar was effectively under siege with thousands of securitymen patrolling roads and lanes. While many here feared that this would reduce the delegations visit to a mere formality, there was no mistaking a sense of movement, however small it may have been. 

For, the chorus that the delegation got to hear  and listened to  was that status quo in the state would not work. From civil-society groups and trade federations to separatists and NGOs  one of them led by Hameeda Nayeem, wife of jailed moderate Hurriyat leader Nayeem Khan  the message was similar: there was need for a fresh political impetus in the Valley.

A team of leaders, including the DMKs T R Baalu, Shiromani Akali Dals Rattan Singh Ajnala, MIMs Asad-ud-din Owaisi, CPMs Sitaram Yechury and TDPs Nageshwar Rao went to Geelanis residence at Hyderpora on Airport Road.

Sources said Geelani insisted on meeting them only with the media present.

This was followed by visits to Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Yasin Malik at their respective residences by two separate teams.

Geelani was blunt and predictable: he reiterated his traditional line seeking a formal acknowledgement of the disputed nature of Kashmir as a prerequisite for engagement with the Centre. India needs to create conditions for peace in the state, Geelani told the delegation.

He dismissed the idea of a renewed dialogue with the Centre: We have engaged in 150 rounds of dialogue with New Delhi in the past six decades and we havent moved an inch on Kashmir. How will another such exercise be any different?

But he urged the delegation that the only way the dialogue could be restored was for the Centre to meet his five conditions for ending the current unrest in the state. These are: accepting Kashmir as an international dispute, beginning the process of demilitarization, releasing prisoners, punishing security personnel involved in killings, and ending further killings and arrests.

These demands are our bottom line. If the Centre responds positively to these demands, we will review the ongoing agitation in the state and renew the engagement, Geelani said with cameras whirring on all sides.

And if there is no response to these demands, then we will have no option but to continue our struggle.

A team led by CPI leader Gurudas Dasgupta visited the Mirwaiz at the other end of the city.

In his meeting, the Mirwaiz said: I urge you to tell the truth to the people of India about what Kashmiris really want. It is time that you not only accept the sentiment of azaadi but also make it a point of reference in the dialogue on the future of state.

New Delhi only comes to us (separatists) when the situation is critical in the state. They forget Kashmir once things return to normal, the Mirwaiz said, as he showed the delegation pictures of teenagers and children killed in the ongoing turmoil.

The delegation which went to meet Malik included Ram Vilas Paswan of the Lok Janashakti Party, Basudeb Acharya of CPM, Prasun Kumar of Biju Janata Dal, Narinder Kumar Kashyap of BSP and Jose K Mani of the Kerala Congress.

When the boys were killed, if the Army chief had apologized to the family, this issue would not taken such a shape now, Paswan said setting a conciliatory tone for the meeting.

Malik replied: We talked to you. We had declared a unilateral ceasefire. And I got 600 body bags of my colleagues in response to our peace move. Then Hizbul Mujahideen talked to you, they also got the body bags of their top commanders. Dialogue has no credibility here. For Gods sake, dont push our children towards the gun. For the past 15 years, India has been saying that violence and dialogue cannot go together.

Paswan responded: There are no two opinions about it. We are with them (the people in the Valley) and we think that such a committee must be formed, he said. The 100 people who were killed (in the last three months), we demand an inquiry to probe it.

Earlier in the morning, the Mirwaiz and Malik had, in a joint announcement, declined to meet the delegation and, instead, decided to send a memorandum. It minced few words: We cannot help but feel that we Kashmiris have been corralled into a concentration camp of concertina wires, jack-booted surveillance and vengeful assault by the Indian state, which deliberately chooses to deny this part of its claimed nation the constitutional guarantee of the right to life.

The memorandum called upon New Delhi to facilitate establishment and empowerment of a Kashmir Committee, comprising senior representatives of all major Indian political parties to develop and enter into a process of engagement with the representatives of the people of Jammu & Kashmir.

Let this process be designed to deliver a negotiated solution to the Kashmir issue that is mutually acceptable to all parties, the memorandum said. We believe that a similar Kashmir Committee, bringing together all political forces, should also be established in Pakistan. We will advocate to the political parties in Pakistan that this be done. This will ensure that all major political forces in India and Pakistan are on board with the peace process and it will help institutionalize and sustain the process to resolve the Kashmir problem.

Both the PDP and Congress raised the pitch for a concerted and comprehensive dialogue. The opposition PDP  among the first to meet the team  was unhappy since its 14-member team got only 15 minutes, but it made its point.

We told them that the need is for a long-term solution because quickfixes will not work. We need the Centre to acknowledge that Kashmir is a political problem and seek a comprehensive political solution once and for all, said Nizamudin Bhat, a senior PDP leader.

State Congress president Saifuddin Soz said that he had urged the delegation to think unconventionally on Kashmir to heal the wounds of the Valley.


----------



## EjazR

*Tehelka - This is not a lost cause.
For those with the inclination, here is a plan for Kashmir*

IS THERE a way out of the anarchy in Kashmir? Is it possible to create an opportunity out of this grave crisis? Can the conditions for sustainable peace still be created? What can New Delhi, the state government and the people of Kashmir do, unilaterally or collectively, to build a &#8216;Naya&#8217; Jammu & Kashmir symbolised by peace, prosperity and people&#8217;s power? Here are 10 Commandments to save Jammu & Kashmir.

*FOR NEW DELHI*

1} Do not live in denial: accept that there is an uprising, and admit your mistakes
One of the biggest hurdles in the way of any meaningful initiative is that New Delhi often becomes a prisoner of its own rhetoric. Let&#8217;s face it: there is a virtual revolt on the streets of the Kashmir Valley. Enraged young men and increasingly women are leading an uprising against the State and the central government and we just hope and (often believe) that it is all a Pakistani plot.
Chitambaram

This is a generation born in conflict which has only seen the ugly face of India. This is a politically conscious generation that may not be able to take a long-term view of issues, but is hardly enamoured by Pakistan, nor can it easily be manipulated by the ISI. Understanding the anatomy of this new &#8216;movement&#8217; alone will help to craft policies that can really deliver results on the ground.

This reality must be accepted as must be the admission of mistakes. This is the first step towards restoring trust between New Delhi and the people of Kashmir. Over the years, the Centre has made a number of appalling mistakes in Kashmir. Promises of dialogue have not been kept, several elections have been rigged, genuinely elected governments dismissed, puppet leaders installed &#8212; and, in the last two decades, the ordinary Kashmiri has faced harassment from security forces.

Some of these mistakes were avoidable; others inevitable given the complex situation on the ground, and others have been corrected. Facing up to this reality is essential. Admission of these mistakes will not be construed as an expression of guilt, but will signal recognition that fresh initiatives towards Kashmir will be based on an awareness of past mistakes and a genuine desire not to see them repeated. Sonia Gandhi, in her speech to the all-party meeting, came closest to accepting this reality.

2} Understand what the youth want: conduct a stakeholder analysis and build trust
It will be impossible to reach out to these young men and women unless there is a clear understanding of what they want. While the uprising may have a single anti- India focus, a variety of factors have coalesced to generate these protests. The all-party delegation that visits the Valley must be tasked to conduct a comprehensive analysis of the stakeholders (especially the youth) in each district of the Valley. Based on this, implement unilaterally confidence- and trust-building measures that will have maximum impact, including release of young men in jails and political detainees immediately.

3} Create the conditions for an &#8216;uninterrupted&#8217; sustained dialogue
Once the CBMs are in place, it is essential to appoint a team of political interlocutors who will carry credibility. Make the dialogue unconditional and as inclusive as possible. The dialogue must be based on a two-year time-table and weekly meetings. While there may be few takers in the beginning, once it is recognised that New Delhi is acting in good faith, Kashmiris themselves will force their leaders to join the negotiating table. All those part of the dialogue must be exposed to the lessons from peace processes across the world by experts in conflict resolution.

4} Recognise that autonomy or self-governance in J&K will not balkanise India
Separatism grows when people feel disconnected from the structures of power and the process of policy formulation; in contrast, devolution ensures popular participation in the running of the polity. Bluntly put, autonomy and self-governance is the only recipe for the 21st century. If autonomy weakened states, the United States of America would have disintegrated many decades ago. If this balance is struck, Jammu and Kashmir could become a model of &#8216;cooperative federalism&#8217;, a special model that could be gradually applied to other states in the union.

Autonomy and self-rule are about empowering people, making them feel that they belong, and about increasing the accountability of public institutions and services. It is synonymous with decentralisation and devolution of power, phrases that have been on the charter of virtually every political party in India. In Jammu and Kashmir, autonomy carries tremendous resonance with the people because puppet leaders from the state colluded with the central leadership and gradually eroded the autonomy promised by the Constitution. There is no contradiction between wanting Kashmir to be part of the national mainstream and the state&#8217;s desire for autonomous self-governance.

5} Create a Truth and Reconciliation Commission
A commission like this is not about fixing blame, but about accepting the tragic events of the past and moving together into a better future. It is about recognising the tragedy of two decades, of those who disappeared or were killed, or the tragic displacement of Kashmiri Pandits. Such a Commission would be best served by respected jurists who carry credibility with Indian civil society as well as the people of the state.

*FOR THE STATE GOVERNMENT*

6} Create the conditions for an internal reconciliation

Today, Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh are polarised, with their differences being exploited by sectarian groups. There are powerful forces demanding a trifurcation of the main regions of the state &#8211; Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh &#8211; into separate administrative units.

Posing as an imaginative solution, this demand, if conceded, could lead to violent social disruptions in the state and create a communal polarisation that would not just irretrievably destroy the cultural and social fabric of the state, but have perilous consequences for communal relations in the rest of India. In addition, trifurcation would forever end the possibilities of reviving the plural traditions of communal harmony in the state that had once made it a symbol of the very idea of India: unity in diversity. It is important that the state government work, along with civil society, to create the conditions for reconciliation amongst the three regions and the different ethnic groups, that will also make it possible for Kashmir&#8217;s Hindus to honourably return to the valley.

7} Reach out to the Opposition and the young
It is important for Omar Abdullah reach out to everyone. A politician is one who only thinks of the next election; a statesman is one who thinks of the next generation. Bury the past, forget the bitterness of yesterday, and try and create a new way in politics. Meet young people, as many as you can, every day. And call on your political opponents (drop by at Fairview to see the Muftis, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq at Nageen and even Syed Ali Shah Geelani at Hyderpora) and seek their support in the crisis. Generosity in politics will never be seen as a weakness. Political leaders who demonstrate humility in crisis always emerge stronger.

8} Recognise your failures, don&#8217;t always blame Delhi
The state government has found it easy to blame the central government for all the problems of the state. It is time that it accepted that the administration had virtually collapsed in the last three months. Most deaths on the streets were during firing &#8212; not by the Indian army, but by the J&K police or the CRPF aiding the state police. J&K is believed to be the second most corrupt state in India with good reason. Delivery of public services is abysmal, and there is no scheme for generating employment other than as white collar workers in the government. This needs to change. The youth of Kashmir have to be given hope for the future and this can only happen if the local government delivers on multiple fronts.

*FOR THE PEOPLE OF KASHMIR*
PEOPLE OF KASHMIR

9} Recognise the limits of the possible
The people of Kashmir have suffered and been traumatised over the lost decades and lived in uncertainty for the last six decades. Clarity of thinking is not easy in these times, but it is critical to move forward. It is time that the people and the leaders stop living under the illusion of a utopian dream. The reality is that the people must look for pragmatic ways to ensure the honour, dignity and the empowerment of the people in this globalised world. Running after the mirage of a distant paradise will only create the conditions for greater suffering.

10} Discover the other India and utilise its opportunity
There is an India beyond bunkers, security forces and corrupt and corrupted politicians. It is the vibrant India of entrepreneurs, professionals, activists, civil society activists and the robust and free media, among others. More and more Kashmiris must discover this India and build a coalition with it. That is the best guarantee against the other India which we witness in the Valley.


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## Hulk

I strongly feel we should let Kashmir burn for 6 more months. The more we try to console them the more idiotic they are getting by the day.


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## Donatello

indianrabbit said:


> I strongly feel we should let Kashmir burn for 6 more months. The more we try to console them the more idiotic they are getting by the day.



You will see they will respect you more when you will stop 'consoling' them with bullets and curfews. 

Did you even read what you wrote? 

Because when a person in Srinagar looks at the situation in Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore or kolkata, he would feel kinda left out.


Believe me, it won't work, we did that in Balochistan. And they still haven't forgotten the Army and Punjabis.


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## Areesh

penumbra said:


> You will see they will respect you more when you will stop 'consoling' them with bullets and curfews.
> 
> Did you even read what you wrote?
> 
> Because when a person in Srinagar looks at the situation in Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore or kolkata, he would feel kinda left out.
> 
> 
> Believe me, it won't work, we did that in Balochistan. And they still haven't forgotten the Army and Punjabis.



And Balochistan is not IOK. So keep it out of it. IOK has it's own reasons to burn, the biggest one is it doesn't belong to India.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Areesh

> One of the main separatist leaders in Indian-administered Kashmir says protests against Indian rule will carry on unless his main demands are met.
> 
> Syed Ali Shah Geelani told the BBC he wanted the withdrawal of Indian security forces from the region and the repeal of emergency laws.
> 
> He is one of three influential separatists who met members of an all-party delegation of Indians MPs.
> 
> More than 100 people have been killed in violent protests since June.
> 
> Security forces have frequently opened fire with live ammunition to disperse groups of stone-throwing protesters angry at India's rule over the disputed region.
> 
> In the latest violence in the mainly-Muslim valley, five people were injured on Monday in clashes with the army outside of the town of Sopore.
> 
> A 22-year-old woman was killed in Sopore at the weekend during clashes between police and protesters, as residents continued to defy a curfew, now in its eighth day.
> 
> *Demands*
> 
> Mr Geelani had refused to meet the full party of nearly 40 visiting lawmakers but a group of five of the MPs visited him at his residence, where he is under house arrest.
> 
> Mr Geelani is the leads the hardline faction of the Hurriyat Conference (HC), a separatist alliance.
> 
> Speaking after the meeting with the MPs, he told the BBC the protests were peaceful and would continue unless his group's demands were met.
> 
> He said he wanted the Indian government to declare Kashmir an international dispute, withdraw troops from the region, revoke the emergency powers given to the security forces and release political prisoners.
> 
> Two other separatist leaders were also visited by MPs from the delegation - Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, the head of the moderate wing of the HC, who is also under house arrest, and Yasin Malik, the moderate leader of the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front.
> 
> All three men had earlier refused to meet the visiting delegation.
> 
> They were told by the MPs that Kashmir was an integral part of India and there was no question of its succession.
> 
> But Mr Farooq was told by the group that visited him that all other issues could be discussed.
> 
> The delegation is led by Indian Home Minister Palaniappan Chidambaram and includes lawmakers from all major national parties.
> 
> The government announced the all-party fact-finding mission last week after an emergency meeting in the capital, Delhi.
> 
> The BBC's Altaf Hussain in Indian-administered Kashmir's main city of Srinagar says the Indian government is trying to build a consensus among the country's major parties on how to deal with the situation.
> 
> During their two-day visit, the delegation is consulting members of the public and Kashmiri politicians and business leaders in the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley.
> 
> But there is resentment among many people who want to meet the visitors, but have so far been unable to do so because the valley remains under strict curfew.
> 
> Until visiting the separatist leaders, the delegation had only met pro-India politicians and business leaders.



Kashmir separatist says protests will continue


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## PakiiZeeshan

Here come the Indians


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## hecj

PakiiZeeshan said:


> Here come the Indians



ya we came n will come.


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## PakiiZeeshan

hecj said:


> ya we came n will come.



Same can be said for our Kashmiri brothers


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## hecj

PakiiZeeshan said:


> Same can be said for our Kashmiri brothers



you should also knw abt the past results,if u r talking abt past.


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## PakiiZeeshan

hecj said:


> you should also knw abt the past results,if u r talking abt past.



Which past results do you speak of?


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## Avatar

When do the Protesters ever say that Protests will stop ? 

It is the job of the protesters to say protests will continue, otherwise it will kill the idea of being a protester. They wont be called protesters if they said protests will stop lol..This is senseless. Protesters have been protesting for decades and they can go on protesting for millenia's


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## Areesh

Avatar said:


> When do the Protesters ever say that Protests will stop ?
> 
> It is the job of the protesters to say protests will continue, otherwise it will kill the idea of being a protester. They wont be called protesters if they said protests will stop lol..This is senseless. Protesters have been protesting for decades *and they can go on protesting for millenia's*



And I can assure you they will, till the objective is achieved.


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## StingRoy

Areesh said:


> And I can assure you they will, till the objective is achieved.



and push the innocents to death?


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## Fireurimagination

Areesh said:


> And I can assure you they will, till the objective is achieved.



Don't hold your breath though


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## EjazR

*All-party team visits Kashmir hospitals, Hazratbal - The Economic Times*

SRINAGAR: The all-party delegation from Delhi Tuesday visited the Hazratbal shrine and hospitals, continuing its assessment of the ground situation in Kashmir, even as curfew was in place in Srinagar and other major towns in the valley.

"Indefinite curfew continues in Srinagar city and other major towns of the valley. Curfew restrictions have continued following reports that the miscreants had planned to incite violence to coincide with the visit of the delegation," a senior police officer said here.

The delegation is led by union Home Minister P. Chidambaram. Asaduddin Owaisi and Sushma Swaraj were among the members who visited the Hazratbal shrine. The Muslim shrine here is held sacred by many as it preserves what many believe to be a hair of Prophet Muhammad.

Some leaders from Delhi are also visiting hospitals, among them the bone and joint hospital here, to meet people injured during clashes with the security forces in 103 days of unrest in Kashmir Valley, during which 102 people have lost their lives.

Some members of the delegation Monday called on three prominent separatist leaders -- Syed Ali Geelani, Mirwaiz Umer Farooq and Muhammad Yasin Malik -- despite their refusal to meet the Delhi leaders.

Interestingly, all the three separatist leaders refused to talk to delegation members even inside their houses and insisted it be done before the media.

The practice of speaking to the MPs only before the media was begun by hardline pro-Pakistani separatist leader Syed Ali Geelani and has been taken up by Mirwaiz Umer and Yasin Malik.

Geelani expressed inability to serve tea to his guests as he said there was no tea or milk in the house because of the indefinite curfew imposed by the authorities.

He also stuck to his five-point agenda which includes acceptance of Kashmir as an international dispute as the first and foremost demand before a dialogue can be started between New Delhi and local separatists.

The delegation also met representatives of trade, industry, tour and travel, tourism, transport, apple growers, NGOs, students from local universities, vice-chancellors and some prominent local writers and journalists.

Representatives of local Sikhs also called on the delegation Monday evening. A deputation of Gujjars and Bakerwals also met the team to discuss their problems in the state.


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## EjazR

*'Ready for meaningful talks' - The Times of India*

SRINAGAR: The all-party delegation to Kashmir split up into different groups to meet politicians of different hues but secured no concrete assurances on ending the swirling protests that have engulfed the Valley since June 11.

''Let GOI acknowledge Kashmir as international dispute, start demilitarization of Jammu & Kashmir, revoke draconian laws like AFSPA, Public Safety Act and release political prisoners,'' Syed Ali Shah Geelani told the members of the all-aprty group who met him on Monday. The 81-year-old leader also demanded prosecution of security forces responsible for the killing of protesters. '' India has no legitimacy to rule Jammu & Kashmir and should withdraw occupational forces for restoration of normalcy in Jammu & Kashmir,'' Geelani told the MPs.

The visitors to Geelani's home were CPM's Sitaram Yechury, Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen's Asaduddin Owaisi, DMK's T R Baalu, Akali Dal's Ratan Singh Ajnala, and TDP's Namo Nageshwara Rao.

''We were disappointed with Geelani's hard stand. Our stand on Kashmir is that it's an integral part of India. About other demands, we share Geelani's views,'' said Asaduddin Owaisi.

Yechury suggested that restoration of normalcy would pave the way for discussing some of the separatists' demands. But Geelani rejected the line, saying restoration of normalcy was linked to acceptance of the demands. ''We are very sad that more than 100 people have been killed. We don't want our brethren should get killed here. We have come here to express our concern for the deaths, but normalcy should be restored,'' Yechury told Geelani.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> And Balochistan is not IOK. So keep it out of it. *IOK has it's own reasons to burn,* the biggest one is it doesn't belong to India.



IOK - Sorry J&K - Sorry the Valley has only one reason to burn - A misplaced yearning of revenge for something that was essentially a self-inflicted wound with a dose of religious intolerance thrown in.

Nothing more,Nothing less.


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## BTG

Karthic Sri said:


> *First:*
> 
> *Palestine* - UN recognised right to indpendence,*Kashmir* - Un doesnt recognise independence
> 
> *Palestine* - Did any ruler formally accede to Israel - NO ; *Kashmir* - the Maharaja formally signed the instrument of accession to make it a part of India.
> 
> *Palestine* - are the Palestinians chased out from Palestine- yes ; *Kashmir* - are the Kashmiris chased outfrom Kashmir - no (if the Hindus/Sikhs/Jains qualify as "Kashmiris" then maybe Yes)
> 
> *Palestine* - is their territory being occupied by settlers - yes : *Kashmir* - is territory being occupied by Hindu settlers from rest of India - NO
> *
> Palestine* - do Tanks ,bulldozers regularly demolish homes,buildings - YES ; *Kashmir* - Have Tanks even come once inside SriNagar - NO
> 
> *Palestine* - Do attack Helicopters regularly fire missiles at anything moving - YES ; *Kashmir* - Does that thing happen here - NO
> 
> *Palestine* - IS any HAMAS leader safe from MOSSAD - NO ; *Kashmir* - IS any hair on the head of a separatist leader harmed - NO .Infact they are given treatment at the taxpayers expense in Delhi and Mumbai
> 
> 
> *Palestine *- Do the Israeli police calmly bear all the stones thrown on them - NO ;* Kashmir* - Poor CRPF not even allowed to fire and given only a lathi in hand.
> 
> *Palestine* - IS there a shortage of basic materials - YES ; *Kashmir* - one of the least poor states in India with annual assitance going into thousands of crores.
> 
> *Palestine* - IS there any blockade of essential supplies in place - YES ; *Kashmir* - NO[/B]
> 
> 
> 
> so basically the quoted part goes down the drain.
> 
> *Second:*
> 
> 
> 
> Indians praise Israel,not some lonely figure sitting in Ireland pretending to be a columnist.
> 
> *Thirdly:*
> 
> 
> 
> The thread starter forgot to bold these particular words.So now what happens to the deeper than ocean friendship.?



Amazing post and clearly explains how the situation in Palestine is different from situation in Kashmir... Whoever tries to equate the two, should read these points and understand....

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Areesh

> ''We were disappointed with Geelani's hard stand. Our stand on Kashmir is that it's an integral part of India. About other demands, we share Geelani's views,'' said Asaduddin Owaisi.




Lolzzz.


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## Enigma

Why the hell kashmiris speak about freedom. If they behave out what they following right now. Propaganda. Kill and kill each and every millitant. Hang them skinned off.


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## EjazR

*The Hindu : States / Other States : All-party team to visit Tangmarg, city hospitals*

The all-party delegation will visit Tangmarg on Tuesday, which witnessed incidents of arson recently, hospitals in the city to meet those injured during clashes, and the Hazratbal shrine.

The high-level delegation led by Union Home Minister P. Chidambaram, which on Monday held discussions with various shades of opinion including the hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani, will form three groups.

One of the groups will visit Tangmarg to make an on-the-spot assessment of the September 13 incidents of arson in which a Missionary school and several government buildings were set ablaze by a mob.

Five persons were killed in this incident after police had to fire at the unruly crowd, who were protesting against the alleged desecration of Holy Koran in the United States.

The second group will visit hospitals in the city to meet those injured in clashes with security forces.

The PDP had asked the all-party delegation to visit the affected areas, including hospitals and district headquarters, to get a first hand account of the sufferings of the people.

The third group will pay obeisance at the Hazratbal Shrine.

The 42-member delegation that includes BJP leaders Sushma Swaraj and Arun Jaitely, Left leaders Sitaram Yechury and Gurudas Dasgupta are in the state to assess the ground situation against the backdrop of unabated unrest that has claimed over 100 lives in the last three months.


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## GUNNER

*Indian MPs Heckled On Kashmir Fact-Finding Mission*

*SRINAGAR, India, Sept 21, 2010 (AFP)* - Indian lawmakers on a fact-finding missing to violence-hit Kashmir cut short a hospital tour after being heckled by patients' relatives on Tuesday as separatists called for fresh protests.

The members of parliament from New Delhi were part of an all-party delegation sent to Kashmir, where more than 100 civilians have been shot dead by police and paramilitary troops during a wave of separatist protests.

Several delegates arrived at the main hospital in Srinagar, Indian Kashmir's summer capital, to meet patients injured in three months of clashes between stone-throwing protesters and security forces using live rounds.

The lawmakers were hurried away after just 10 minutes as people inside the hospital chanted slogans against rule from New Delhi, an AFP reporter at the hospital said.

*Some hospital staff and relatives of the injured by police firing also shouted "Go India, Go back!" at the delegates, who looked surprised by the hostile reception*.

A total of 37 national politicians, led by Home Minister P. Chidambaram, were on Monday snubbed by many local Kashmiri leaders who campaign either for autonomy or for complete independence for the Muslim-majority region.

Hardline separatist Syed Ali Geelani, who has organised the almost daily protests, refused to attend Monday's talks at a conference centre in Srinagar.

Geelani called for further street rallies on Thursday and Friday even if strict curfews that are keeping people indoors are still in place.

Moderate separatist leaders such as Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Yasin Malik also dismissed the delegation, describing it as a publicity stunt to disguise the government's inability to end the escalating unrest in Kashmir.

"The fact that the city is locked down under a curfew and residents cannot leave their houses while these politicians are here says everything," Farooq told AFP Tuesday.

"They must meet the common people if they want to hear the real aspirations of Kashmiris. They already know the truth about the curfews and police brutality."

Chidambaram was not at the hospital where the protests erupted, but instead visited the volatile town of Tangmarg with other delegates and the chief minister of Kashmir, Omar Abdullah.

On September 13, security forces in Tangmarg killed six protesters as mobs burnt down government buildings and a missionary school. During the worst day of violence for years in Kashmir, 17 civilians and one police officer died.

"The delegation has come obviously to get a report about the ground situation here," Abdullah told reporters. "We tried to ensure that the delegation meets as many people as possible."

*The most recent death, a female bystander shot by paramilitary troops at a protest on Sunday evening, brought the number of civilians killed to 106*.

The all-party delegates are expected to return to New Delhi on Wednesday after spending the night in Jammu, the Hindu-majority part of Indian Kashmir.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has vowed to that feedback from the visit would influence the government's "evolving response" to Kashmir, but few observers predict any imminent breakthrough.


----------



## su-47

Karthic Sri said:


> *First:*
> 
> *Palestine* - UN recognised right to indpendence,*Kashmir* - Un doesnt recognise independence
> 
> *Palestine* - Did any ruler formally accede to Israel - NO ; *Kashmir* - the Maharaja formally signed the instrument of accession to make it a part of India.
> 
> *Palestine* - are the Palestinians chased out from Palestine- yes ; *Kashmir* - are the Kashmiris chased outfrom Kashmir - no (if the Hindus/Sikhs/Jains qualify as "Kashmiris" then maybe Yes)
> 
> *Palestine* - is their territory being occupied by settlers - yes : *Kashmir* - is territory being occupied by Hindu settlers from rest of India - NO
> *
> Palestine* - do Tanks ,bulldozers regularly demolish homes,buildings - YES ; *Kashmir* - Have Tanks even come once inside SriNagar - NO
> 
> *Palestine* - Do attack Helicopters regularly fire missiles at anything moving - YES ; *Kashmir* - Does that thing happen here - NO
> 
> *Palestine* - IS any HAMAS leader safe from MOSSAD - NO ; *Kashmir* - IS any hair on the head of a separatist leader harmed - NO .Infact they are given treatment at the taxpayers expense in Delhi and Mumbai
> 
> 
> *Palestine *- Do the Israeli police calmly bear all the stones thrown on them - NO ;* Kashmir* - Poor CRPF not even allowed to fire and given only a lathi in hand.
> 
> *Palestine* - IS there a shortage of basic materials - YES ; *Kashmir* - one of the least poor states in India with annual assitance going into thousands of crores.
> 
> *Palestine* - IS there any blockade of essential supplies in place - YES ; *Kashmir* - NO[/B]
> 
> 
> 
> so basically the quoted part goes down the drain.
> 
> *Second:*
> 
> 
> 
> Indians praise Israel,not some lonely figure sitting in Ireland pretending to be a columnist.
> 
> *Thirdly:*
> 
> 
> 
> The thread starter forgot to bold these particular words.So now what happens to the deeper than ocean friendship.?



Damn, you pretty much nailed it. You should mail this to Rob Brown. will enlighten him

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## SpArK

su-47 said:


> Damn, you pretty much nailed it. You should mail this to *Rob Brown*. will enlighten him



You mean Rob Brown, the actor?? 

Or is it Dan brown u are referring to??


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## EjazR

*In restless Kashmir, desire for independence grows - CSMonitor.com*

_Even among Pakistani Kashmiris, who share a religion with Islamabad, the desire for independence is growing because of discontent with the economy, difficulty of movement, and identification with Indian Kashmiris._

* Muzaffarabad, Pakistan-administered Kashmir *

While a group of Indian lawmakers arrived in Indian Kashmir on Monday hoping to resolve a crisis there that has seen more than 100 civilians killed in the past three months, a surprising amount of Kashmiris in Pakistani Kashmir say they want to see independence from both countries.

In dozens of interviews with the Monitor, residents of Muzaffarabad expressed frustration at the level of power exerted by Islamabad and their economic situation, as well as a desire to form a state with Indian Kashmir, independent of both Pakistan and India.

Because of Pakistani Kashmirs overwhelming Muslim majority, it has long been assumed that its population is content with rule from Islamabad. But thats changing, says Mosharraf Zaidi, a newpaper columnist with The News, an English-language daily. The natural inclination now is toward an autonomous Kashmir, as a response to the failed political process between India and Pakistan, he says.

Many cite the failure of India and Pakistan to overcome their differences, and the resulting instability in Kashmir, as their reason for wanting independence.

Indeed, according to a recent poll conducted by Londons influential Chatham House think tank, some 44 percent of people (Pakistani Kashmiris) in Azad Jammu Kashmir (AJK) wish to see full independence. The vast majority of others want to see some type of independence, either more powers with in their state, or combined with India-controlled Kashmir.

*Before Pakistan*

AJK is the southern part of Pakistan-administered Kashmir. It fell under Pakistani control after the first Kashmir war broke out between India and Pakistan in 1947, shortly after both countries gained independence from Britain. It is bordered to the east by the Indian State of Jammu and Kashmir and to the north by Gilgit-Baltistan, an area which was until last year known as Federally Administered Northern Areas (FANA) and is also controlled by Pakistan but claimed by India.

The Indian and Pakistani parts of Kashmir are divided by a cease-fire line from the 1947 conflict. The Line of Control has since become a de facto border.

Unemployment is the most significant problem facing the population according to Pakistani Kashmiris. The majority of people in the area depend on forestry, livestock, and agriculture for a living, and 35 to 50 percent of its population of 4 million are currently unemployed according to government estimates.

The government here is not sincere to its people, they have nothing to offer us, and there arent any opportunities, says Muhammad Adil, a bus driver in Muzaffarabad. We are like Pakistan in that they are our Muslim brothers, but we need our own government. Everyone knows that Kashmir was around long before Pakistan was created.

Despite the fact that decades of violence rocked the region and has only recently become relatively calm, Mr. Adil, like many of those interviewed, believes that Kashmir can only be reunited through force. According to the survey, 37 percent of Pakistani Kashmiris believe militant violence will make a resolution to the dispute more likely, while 31 percent who believe it would make a resolution less likely.

*Barrier to movement creates restlessness*

The LoC [Line of Control] is an almost complete barrier to movement, writes the Chatham House's Robert Bradnock in his report.

Zeeshan Naqash, a computing student living in AJK, says he was impressed by the level of development he saw in Indian Kashmir when he visited family there in 2007, but feels that Pakistani Kashmir has more freedoms. Over here you are free to write what you want, you are free to stay out late and there arent curfews, there isnt a major Army presence.

Still, he says, AJK has seen little economic benefit from being a part of Pakistan. I want to see a free state separate from both India and Pakistan, he says.

Others are not as fortunate as Mr. Naqash was by being able to cross the border.

Bilal Ahmed says he was forced to leave his studies at Srinagar College after coming under the radar of Indian authorities, who suspected him of having militant ties. He now teaches at a school run for migrants from Indian Kashmir. The government estimates there are about 35,000 of these migrants.

In the summer of 1993, Mr. Ahmed left India. The Indian military had tortured and killed a number of his friends, he says. He made a six-hour trek across snowy mountains, avoiding landmines to reach AJK. He has not seen his parents or sisters since, he says, and bus tickets to Srinigar are available only to those with lofty connections.

I respect the people of Pakistan and of Azad Jammu Kashmir, but we Kashmiris are held hostage to the dispute between India and Pakistan. Its a tragedy for the Kashmiri people and the whole world has turned their backs on us, says Ahmed.

His personal experience aligns with the survey, which found that across the two parts of Kashmir, 8 percent of respondents claimed to have friends or family living on the other side of the ceasefire line, but only 1 percent of the total population had visited in the last five years. Less than 5 percent knew anyone who had crossed the LoC in the last five years.

*Lack of faith in government*

Compounding matters is a lack of faith in the AJK government. Only 34 percent of Azad Jammu Kashmiris believe their state elections held in 2006 have improved their chances for peace, according to the polling.

Infighting between politicians who appear to spend more time in Islamabad than in Kashmir adds to negative perception about the political class, says Saleem Parwana, president of the Muzafarabad Press Club.

We have now had four different governments in four years, he says, referring to the latest vote of no-confidence in the government of Muslim Conference leader Raja Farooq, which paved the way for Farooqs rival [and former ally] Sardar Attique Ahmad Khan to be sworn in to office as Prime Minister of AJK for the second time since the 2006 elections.

The AJK goverment cant remedy the peoples problems. They are more engaged in breaking and making governments This doesnt engage the ordinary people, he says, adding that since the flooding hit the city, the population is struggling to cope without reliable electricity or fresh water supplies.

AJKs top bureaucrat, chief of police, and finance secretary are all appointed on a rotational basis by Islamabad, ensuring the "state" has less authority than a province.
In search of fresh solutions

Dr. Bradnock writes that the plebiscite options are likely to offer no solution to the dispute.

*But Mir Abdul Rasheed Abbasi, who was until late July was AJKs minister for law and parliamentary affairs, says that ordinary people are better off in Azad Jammu Kashmir than in the Indian-controlled Jammu and Kashmir and should not hold out hope for independence.*

*Calling the results of the survey exaggerated, he says: Even if the people want independence, who will bestow this upon them? Under what mechanism? The Security Council resolution has not been carried out for 62 years. It offers the only hope for a lasting and durable peace.*

Nearly all of those interviewed by the Monitor expressed solidarity for their Kashmiri brethren on the Indian side of the border, and said they hoped for a united Kashmir [either independent or under Pakistani control]. If anyone asks me, I will always say I am a Kashmiri, not a Pakistani, says Meher Gillani, who runs a petrol-station in Muzaffarabad city. But we must be united, we are nothing without them, he adds.

According to Basharat Peer, a Fellow at the Open Society Institute in New York and author of A Curfewed Night, a memoir of growing up during the Indian Kashmir insurgency of the 1990s, Kashmiri nationalism has been strengthened even among the the diasporas in UK and elsewhere, after the Kashmiri rebellion against Indian in 1990.

Also the fact that [AJK] is Azad [Free] only in name and in reality controlled by Pakistan does add to a desire for independence, he says.

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## roach

Someone should tell these poor Kashmiris the truth,, that Kashmir is a geopolitical football- that the lives and deaths of Kashmiris have become a part of the Great Game played out in distant capitals, and that there is too much at stake.

There's never going to be an independent Kashmiri nation- either the Indian, Pakistani or Chinese armies will always be there.

I feel bad for them-being fed BS Azadi hope by all and sundry.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

roach said:


> Pakist
> 
> I feel bad for them-being fed BS Azadi hope by all and sundry.



keep feeling bad all you like....we can see on which side of the LoC there is total unrest and chaos --thanks to the actions of the occupational forces (aka the sissies).



according to the article, we see an interesting paradox. Azad Kashmiris have freedom of speech, freedom of expression and are not bound by intimidation by Pakistan Army and security forces.. the main issue is economic (unemployment issues, other indicators)

Those are similar issues encompassing entire country, not just Azad Kashmir. And they can be solved simply with right leadership and an improved security environment. 

in hindustan occupied Kashmir -- economic conditions are not so bad, even though tourism industry has taken a hit.....but despite billions invested, Kashmiris are still ardently opposed to hindustan occupation and are still victims of intimidation, extra-judicial killings and other violence at the hand of the occupational police/security forces (aka the sissies)

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## roach

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> keep feeling bad all you like....we can see on which side of the LoC there is total unrest and chaos --thanks to the actions of the occupational forces (aka the sissies).
> 
> 
> 
> according to the article, we see an interesting paradox. Azad Kashmiris have freedom of speech, freedom of expression and are not bound by intimidation by Pakistan Army and security forces.. the main issue is economic (unemployment issues, other indicators)
> 
> Those are similar issues encompassing entire country, not just Azad Kashmir. And they can be solved simply with right leadership and an improved security environment.
> 
> in hindustan occupied Kashmir -- economic conditions are not so bad, even though tourism industry has taken a hit.....but despite billions invested, Kashmiris are still ardently opposed to hindustan occupation and are still victims of intimidation, extra-judicial killings and other violence at the hand of the occupational police/security forces (aka the sissies)



Well then, I wonder why your brave soldiers have not managed to wrest Kashmir away from the 'Sissies'. They should just roll in and take what they want!

Last we heard, the 'braves' across their border were retreating from Kargil with these 'sissies' shooting their a$$es off, and their leader running howling to POTUS.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

well, lets look at today instead of yester-decade. A lot has changed since then.

there's an ongoing intifada against india security forces (the sissies)


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## SandsofTime

Indians are envious of Pak for the first time? 


BTW, one of my friends from undergrad is from Muzaffarabad. Never heard him about launching a separatist movement. Also, a cook at a place I lived in Isloo for an year, was also a Kashmiri. Never seen him flinging kitchen knives at anyone, but did cook good food  One teacher of mine in Karachi was from Hunza (Gilgit Baltistan) and taught math not azaadi bhashans. Need I go on.

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## roach

Well, Ok. Let's look at today.

The biggest problem is security and livelihood. We in the rest of India take much for granted- We can live peacefully without being frisked and our houses searched. We have job opportunities, safety and security. The ordinary Kashmiri doesn't. How this came to be in a liberal, democratic nation is another story. 
I am not one to resolve the GOI from blame, but it has been difficult governing a state like Kashmir, even without neighbors obsessed with extracting vengeance for past events.

I like your sentence 

"Those are similar issues encompassing entire country, not just Azad Kashmir. And they can be solved simply with right leadership and an improved security environment" about your part of Kashmir, we need to do the same in J&K.

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## Sonic_boom

Can I give 1000 thanks to post no 5 by Karthic Sri ?


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## su-47

BENNY said:


> You mean Rob Brown, the actor??
> 
> Or is it Dan brown u are referring to??



I am referring to the author of the article.


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## Areesh

> Some hospital staff and relatives of the injured by police firing also shouted "Go India, Go back!" at the delegates, who looked surprised by the hostile reception.



So much for the delegation.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

well a good first step would be to de-militarize the region, and allow press around the world to get Kashmiri perspective so we dont have to rely on newspapers and online propaganda


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## greatsequence

My village is on the border of pakistan-kashmir. We have relations on both sides. Although there are people who will talk about azadi but those wanting to be with pakistan are in overwhelming majority. In gilgit baltistan you will hardly find any one talking about azadi from pakistan.


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## TOPGUN

Total bs .... if the kashmir's from the indian side want there own state or want to be a part of Pakistan then why would kashmir's from the Pakistani kashmir want there own indpendence total bs and lies.. lol how trustworthy and true is this source i doubt it plzz close this bs.


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## somebozo

we can all comprehend the creditibility of a website titled

*The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com*

Indians please dont self-immolate your arses with 






Often in post here after quick consultations with friends over phone..

Me to my Indian-Kashmiri friend at work
Me: Do Kashmiris wants Independence from India??
KF: yes
Me: How abt independence from Pak
KF: not sure
Me: What if they were given an option to join one country?
KF: most probably we will vote for Pakistan
Me: Well its going very poor right now with economy and security in shambles
KF: it has to give us atleast semi-autonomy like azad-kashmir
Me: ok..thx!

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## dabong1

If my memory serves my correctly there is no provision in the UN resoultion for kashmir to go independent....its a straight choise between pakistan and india.
I am pretty sure that during the withdrawal of the british every state was asked to choose between the two and indpendence was not a choice.

If i do have a problem with the GoP then its that AJK should be made into a proper province of pakistan....IOK can join when they get there freedom.


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## civfanatic

It is clear from article that report is based upon chatllam house report which due to its very small sample size is hardly credible.

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## InPhilTraitor

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> well a good first step would be to de-militarize the region, and allow press around the world to get Kashmiri perspective so we dont have to rely on newspapers and online propaganda



Of the 100 people who died in the valley in last 3 month, how many deaths are responsibility of Indian Army? 

Take a guess ... Bingo the answer is ZERO 0.

So, if you really want to discuss something constructive first get your facts right. 

So, who is responsible. It is the J&K Police which requested the support of CRPF, and most of the deaths are responsibility of J&K Police, who are natives of J&K.

I am not taking away the responsibility of Indian Government, I am appraising the responsibility of J&K Government and Police in the whole episode.

Next time you run around and give your unsolicited advice, at least educate yourself.

Please, my life skills do not equip me to handle an emotional zombie.


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## hecj

*Army being made scapegoat in J&K'*

New Delhi: Terming the Armed Forces Special Powers Act as an "essential instrument", Minister of State for Defence M M Pallam Raju Tuesday said the Army was being "demonised" and made a "scapegoat" in Jammu and Kashmir affairs which are mainly linked to the peoples' "aspirations".

Raju said the government was conscious that normalcy needed to be restored in all areas of Jammu and Kashmir and "from that point of view we trying to minimise the use of armed forces".

He said the Army "is moving away from civilian areas and all the government buildings and we are paying huge compensation for agricultural land".

Talking about the situation in Kashmir, he said it is "not normal" and pointed out that infiltration is still continuing although the number of infiltrators has gone down.

"The will to create trouble and foment trouble is still there and that is why the infiltration is still continuing and till that happens I think the security blanket (is needed)," he said in an interaction with reporters at the Indian Women's Press Corps here.

Raju said the bigger challenge in Kashmir is meeting the aspirations of the people. The Army is being "demonised" in Kashmir although it is not responsible for the situation there. "Army becomes the scapegoat," he said.

"We should not look at it from the point of view of the AFSPA or the Army," he said adding the government should focus on bringing about greater opportunity. "The presence of Army is helping that cause,"

"They have contained the situation in certain areas. Their visibility is also less. The recent upsurge is a very grave phenomenon".

Justifying the application of the AFSPA, the Minister said it is an "essential instrument" for forces in strife-torn areas and gives them a "security blanket".

He added "that (AFSPA) has been an essential instrument for the armed forces to go about confidently...you don't want somebody thrusting human rights violations on our soldiers.

"So you have to give some amount of security blanket to these guys who are doing a hard job and you really don't know in conflict places where the threat is coming from and how the terror element is going to strike".

The Minister, however, added it can be reviewed periodically.

Questioned on the continuation of the AFSPA in Jammu and Kashmir, he said, it was essential as "in order to have the upper hand, you need sufficient security blanket for the armed forces to move in and prevent what they perceive as a threat".

Raju said, "From our armed forces point of view, a situation may be peaceful but it takes very little time for an area to become infested with terrorists. So you know trying to deal with such an area you need this kind of a blanket.

He quickly added that, "this does not mean that they (the forces) have an free hand to run and do whatever they want. We have a very strict zero tolerance policy about issues of (human rights) and we have been acting very stringently against people who have violated that".

On providing security to the Commonwealth Games, he said, "there would be sufficient deployment in order to prevent any external threat".

"Any equipment that is needed to be brought in, I think the government of India will do that," he added.

Identifying Maoist violence as a "grave threat", Raju said, "We should not underestimate the problem. From the point of view of security, we should be prepared," he added.

On Indo-US defence ties, he said, the relations between the two countries in this field are progressing very well. "We also hope they will be more generous in sharing technology and help us in improving our preparations".


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## Omar1984

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> keep feeling bad all you like....we can see on which side of the LoC there is total unrest and chaos --thanks to the actions of the occupational forces (aka the sissies).
> 
> 
> 
> according to the article, we see an interesting paradox. Azad Kashmiris have freedom of speech, freedom of expression and are not bound by intimidation by Pakistan Army and security forces.. the main issue is economic (unemployment issues, other indicators)
> 
> Those are similar issues encompassing entire country, not just Azad Kashmir. And they can be solved simply with right leadership and an improved security environment.
> 
> in hindustan occupied Kashmir -- economic conditions are not so bad, even though tourism industry has taken a hit.....but despite billions invested, Kashmiris are still ardently opposed to hindustan occupation and are still victims of intimidation, extra-judicial killings and other violence at the hand of the occupational police/security forces (aka the sissies)



So true bro. indians are always bragging about their rising GDP and dreaming about being a superpower in 2025, yet thousands of Kashmiris in India occupied Kashmir come out into the streets and demand independence from india where hundreds of Kashmiri protestors have been killed by indian police/troops in just 4 months.


While Pakistan is going through its worst crisis. Floods, fragile economy, corrupt PPP government, and the war OF terror. Pakistanis in general are going through a lot, not only Azad Kashmiris.

And to indians, if (God forbid) we ever see Pakistani police/troops killing hundreds of protestors in Azad Kashmir in just 4 months like in india occupied kashmir, you will see thousands of Pakistanis coming out in the streets of Islamabad, Lahore, Karachi, Peshawar, and Quetta demanding the killings be stopped and police/troops be punished.

Pakistan's economy may not be as great as india's economy, but Pakistanis are much better people.

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## Omar1984

*Kashmir is a global threat 
​*
*As India and Pakistan, both nuclear powers, wrangle over its future, the rest of the world should be paying more attention*

The Kashmir conflict has consistently been narrowed to a local and regional issue. The war between the Indian army and Kashmiris has been presented as civil unrest that is being tackled by diplomatic talks. As a result, political leaders around the world have failed to raise concern over the conflict.


US special representative Richard Holbrook for instance, said that the Kashmir issue is an internal matter for India and not one that requires US assistance. This is an unfortunate and regrettable statement that does not take into account the gravity of the conflict and its wider geopolitical impact.


My extensive contacts on the ground in Kashmir have told me of the tortures, abuses, rapes and murders of innocent civilians that continue to pervade Kashmir and have failed to reach our radars due to the Indian government's censorship. Underneath all of the warring between the Indian army and Kashmiris lies a fragile nuclear, economic and political region fraught with terrorist activity.


Ignoring the Kashmir conflict will weaken the Pakistani army's ability to fight the Taliban and al-Qaida in the border region of Afghanistan. At the moment, the Pakistani army is protecting Kashmiris from the curfew and horrific abuses by the Indian army in an effort to maintain stability in the region. As a result, the Pakistani army's efforts are mainly directed at protecting Kashmir and the not the "war on terror".


Given the west's concern that Afghanistan is falling into the hands of the Taliban and the increased number of casualties on Nato's side, it would be in Britain's &#8211; and indeed America's &#8211; best interests to address Kashmir and give the Pakistani army an extra hand in combating extremists on the Afghan border. If the situation continues to escalate, the promise of leaving Afghanistan will be impossible to keep as Nato will have to count on fewer resources from Pakistan.


Additionally, India and Pakistan's nuclear arsenals pose a considerable threat considering the volatility of their relationship. Over the past few months, the conflict in Kashmir has escalated and erupted in horrific violence and could turn into a hotbed of nuclear attacks.


This possibility will only be reduced if pressure is mounted on India and Pakistan to resolve Kashmir. Given that efforts to deter Iran's president Ahmadinejad from pursuing further nuclear development have failed, it would also be wise to keep nuclear frictions in the region to a minimum wherever possible. The south Asian region is continually changing and held to scrutiny and events in neighbouring and distant countries are both threatening existing relationships and building dangerous new ones.


Stability in the Kashmir region is also essential to the British prime minister's goal of improving economic ties with India, and hopefully Pakistan. Addressing Kashmir will mean that the region will be more economically stable for future partnership with Britain and her allies and future EU investment. Prime minister Cameron has made an important starting point by planning economic ties with India and standing up to gain EU support for trade concessions for Pakistan in the wake of the worst floods in centuries, but in order to truly build long-term sustainability, economically, politically and socially, Kashmir must be spoken for.


The Kashmir conflict poses a geopolitical threat because Pakistan's role in Afghanistan will be hindered, economic ties in the region are likely to remain frail and we cannot idly sit as two nuclear powers fight over Kashmir.


The bottom line about Kashmir is that the unrest in this region is not an isolated event and nor are the consequences of that unrest isolated. No longer can we allow the media and our political leadership to report Kashmir as a minor and regional concern. What seems like a local problem, is actually a global and geopolitical threat.


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## amigo

kashmir will remain the same in terms of geography, india will have its part, pak will have theirs & no so called free or independent kashmir.
kashmir will always be divided b/w these two countries, if any indian think one day whole kashmir will be ours then they are dreaming the impossible & same for pak


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## Abu Zolfiqar

InPhilTraitor said:


> Of the 100 people who died in the valley in last 3 month, how many deaths are responsibility of Indian Army?
> 
> Take a guess ... Bingo the answer is ZERO 0.
> 
> So, if you really want to discuss something constructive first get your facts right.
> 
> So, who is responsible. It is the J&K Police which requested the support of CRPF, and most of the deaths are responsibility of J&K Police, who are natives of J&K.
> 
> I am not taking away the responsibility of Indian Government, I am appraising the responsibility of J&K Government and Police in the whole episode.
> 
> Next time you run around and give your unsolicited advice, at least educate yourself.
> 
> Please, my life skills do not equip me to handle an emotional zombie.




oh get out of here.......!!


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## hecj

Omar1984 said:


> *Kashmir is a global threat
> ​*
> *As India and Pakistan, both nuclear powers, wrangle over its future, the rest of the world should be paying more attention*
> 
> The Kashmir conflict has consistently been narrowed to a local and regional issue. The war between the Indian army and Kashmiris has been presented as civil unrest that is being tackled by diplomatic talks. As a result, political leaders around the world have failed to raise concern over the conflict.
> 
> 
> US special representative Richard Holbrook for instance, said that the Kashmir issue is an internal matter for India and not one that requires US assistance. This is an unfortunate and regrettable statement that does not take into account the gravity of the conflict and its wider geopolitical impact.
> 
> 
> My extensive contacts on the ground in Kashmir have told me of the tortures, abuses, rapes and murders of innocent civilians that continue to pervade Kashmir and have failed to reach our radars due to the Indian government's censorship. Underneath all of the warring between the Indian army and Kashmiris lies a fragile nuclear, economic and political region fraught with terrorist activity.
> 
> 
> Ignoring the Kashmir conflict will weaken the Pakistani army's ability to fight the Taliban and al-Qaida in the border region of Afghanistan. At the moment, the Pakistani army is protecting Kashmiris from the curfew and horrific abuses by the Indian army in an effort to maintain stability in the region. As a result, the Pakistani army's efforts are mainly directed at protecting Kashmir and the not the "war on terror".
> 
> 
> Given the west's concern that Afghanistan is falling into the hands of the Taliban and the increased number of casualties on Nato's side, it would be in Britain's  and indeed America's  best interests to address Kashmir and give the Pakistani army an extra hand in combating extremists on the Afghan border. If the situation continues to escalate, the promise of leaving Afghanistan will be impossible to keep as Nato will have to count on fewer resources from Pakistan.
> 
> 
> Additionally, India and Pakistan's nuclear arsenals pose a considerable threat considering the volatility of their relationship. Over the past few months, the conflict in Kashmir has escalated and erupted in horrific violence and could turn into a hotbed of nuclear attacks.
> 
> 
> This possibility will only be reduced if pressure is mounted on India and Pakistan to resolve Kashmir. Given that efforts to deter Iran's president Ahmadinejad from pursuing further nuclear development have failed, it would also be wise to keep nuclear frictions in the region to a minimum wherever possible. The south Asian region is continually changing and held to scrutiny and events in neighbouring and distant countries are both threatening existing relationships and building dangerous new ones.
> 
> 
> Stability in the Kashmir region is also essential to the British prime minister's goal of improving economic ties with India, and hopefully Pakistan. Addressing Kashmir will mean that the region will be more economically stable for future partnership with Britain and her allies and future EU investment. Prime minister Cameron has made an important starting point by planning economic ties with India and standing up to gain EU support for trade concessions for Pakistan in the wake of the worst floods in centuries, but in order to truly build long-term sustainability, economically, politically and socially, Kashmir must be spoken for.
> 
> 
> The Kashmir conflict poses a geopolitical threat because Pakistan's role in Afghanistan will be hindered, economic ties in the region are likely to remain frail and we cannot idly sit as two nuclear powers fight over Kashmir.
> 
> 
> The bottom line about Kashmir is that the unrest in this region is not an isolated event and nor are the consequences of that unrest isolated. No longer can we allow the media and our political leadership to report Kashmir as a minor and regional concern. What seems like a local problem, is actually a global and geopolitical threat.





> The Kashmir conflict has consistently been narrowed to a local and regional issue. The war between the Indian army and Kashmiris has been presented as civil unrest that is being tackled by diplomatic talks. As a result, political leaders around the world have failed to raise concern over the conflict.



world leaders are not taking this issue coz they know india is in demand by every body.they have their own interst and y shud they let their interest down for pakistan



> Ignoring the Kashmir conflict will weaken the Pakistani army's ability to fight the Taliban and al-Qaida in the border region of Afghanistan



no body is asking pakistan to take tension abt india.they have created phobia of india in ther mind or another reason might be the excuse they want to put forward to world of not fighting terror in pak.this is baseless that threat from india dont let pak to fight.*and also in history pak started all wars with india.*
and how pakistan army is helping the kashmirs?????????



> This possibility will only be reduced if pressure is mounted on India and Pakistan to resolve Kashmir. Given that efforts to deter Iran's president Ahmadinejad from pursuing further nuclear development have failed, it would also be wise to keep nuclear frictions in the region to a minimum wherever possible. The south Asian region is continually changing and held to scrutiny and events in neighbouring and distant countries are both threatening existing relationships and building dangerous new ones.



u cant link iran matter with kashmir.many nations are nuclear powered.it is not necessary to link every problem with kashmir.



> Stability in the Kashmir region is also essential to the British prime minister's goal of improving economic ties with India, and hopefully Pakistan. Addressing Kashmir will mean that the region will be more economically stable for future partnership with Britain and her allies and future EU investment. Prime minister Cameron has made an important starting point by planning economic ties with India and standing up to gain EU support for trade concessions for Pakistan in the wake of the worst floods in centuries, but in order to truly build long-term sustainability, economically, politically and socially, Kashmir must be spoken for.



*david cameron has already cleared his stance on india.that brit need india more than india need brit*.so firing shots by putting gun on cameron shoulder is not soln.

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## Star of David

Please your extensive contacts are full of Cr$p. Sorry to inform you but the ground reality is nothing like that. Simple. Like I told you before, if you care so much for the Kashmiris let them apply for Pakistani Citizenship and then they can go live in Pakistan happily ever after. The way I see it, India, China and Pakistan each have a part in it. There was no reason for China to even have an INch of Kashmir but Pakistan ceded the land immediately to China. Pakistan also has ***. So there goes the myth of caring for Kashmiris. You gave their land away without asking or even thinking of them. So stop BSing everyone with your false concerns. It is amateur that concerns Indians and India ...and that's it. If you want you guys can *** independent. Go ahead. We won;t follow suit!

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## Jackdaws

My extensive contracts on ground in Karachi paint a very bleak future for that city as well - there is going to be a bloodbath between the Muhajirs and the Pashtuns and this could have a direct impact on the WoT. The world should intervene.

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## Storm Force

Kashmir is a Closed Book Now.

The Day Both India & Pakistan tested Nukes Kashmir issue was finished.

There will never be another war over Kashmir now.

JUST POLITICAL WRANGLING.

BOTH COUNTRIES have too much other issues ie 

India address Poverty and the rise of china 

Pakistan address their collapsing economy and rise of Taliban./wot.

Kashmir is just a non story in the world

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## Ruag

Omar1984 said:


> At the moment, the Pakistani army is protecting Kashmiris from the curfew and horrific abuses by the Indian army in an effort to maintain stability in the region. As a result, the Pakistani army's efforts are mainly directed at protecting Kashmir and the not the "war on terror".





So, the author has implicitly accepted the fact that Pakistani Army personnel, disguised as local militants, are "protecting" the people of the Kashmiri valley from the "horrific abuses" of the Indian Army. 

Finally a Pakistani has accepted Pakistani Army's direct involvement in cross-border infiltration.

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## Jackdaws

Ruag said:


> So, the author has implicitly accepted the fact that Pakistani Army personnel, disguised as local militants, are "protecting" the people of the Kashmiri valley from the "horrific abuses" of the Indian Army.
> 
> Finally a Pakistani has accepted Pakistani Army's direct involvement in cross-border infiltration.



The retraction will follow suit or some explanation about non-state-actors will.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

it isnt that it's a ''non-story''

it just doesnt get the coverage since the world seems to think that LoC is a permanent border and that the dispute is either solved or on back-burner

no point in talking about de-militarization and nuclear disarmament and other such things as long as conflicts like these exist......

by the way, it is no secret that Pakistan nation did/does/will provide diplomatic and moral support to all Kashmiris --regardless of which side of the de-facto LoC

even Prime Minister would tell you this reality; why put all focus on Army/ISI/etc.

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## Jackdaws

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> it isnt that it's a ''non-story''
> 
> it just doesnt get the coverage since the world seems to think that LoC is a permanent border and that the dispute is either solved or on back-burner
> 
> no point in talking about de-militarization and nuclear disarmament and other such things as long as conflicts like these exist......
> 
> by the way, it is no secret that Pakistan nation did/does/will provide diplomatic and moral support to all Kashmiris --regardless of which side of the de-facto LoC
> 
> even Prime Minister would tell you this reality; why put all focus on Army/ISI/etc.




Diplomatic and moral support - when did that start including Kalashnikovs? It also violates the Shimla agreement which Pakistan signed.

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## abhi_baba

> by the way, it is no secret that Pakistan nation did/does/will provide diplomatic and moral support to all Kashmiris --regardless of which side of the de-facto LoC



Umm .. Maybe Pakistani nation should provide diplomatic and moral support to all Pakistanis..

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Jackdaws said:


> Diplomatic and moral support - when did that start including Kalashnikovs? It also violates the Shimla agreement which Pakistan signed.



Sir, i'm afraid I'm going to have to see some evidence


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## mattoo

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I was more in line with Pakistan Nation's official stance that Kashmir is disputed territory and must be treated thusly.
> 
> the fate of Kashmir should lie with the people of Kashmir ---namely the ones RESIDING in Kashmir



While Pakistan as a nation can lay claim to any piece of territory, it needs also to provide a business case to the people living there as to why they should consider this claim favourably.

My issue is not with your official position. 

I merely contend that people like me, who are non-muslims from Kashmir have no future in Pakistan. If you should believe otherwise, I would like to understand why.

On the other hand, if you agree with me that folks like me would be better off in India, then you must also agree that the territory cannot simply be ceded to Pakistan because of the religious affinities of some. You cannot demand justice selectively for some and not for others.


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## bandit

> *Ignoring the Kashmir conflict will weaken the Pakistani army's ability to fight the Taliban and al-Qaida in the border region of Afghanistan*. At the moment, the* Pakistani army is protecting Kashmiris from the curfew and horrific abuses *by the Indian army in an effort to maintain stability in the region. As a result, the Pakistani army's efforts are mainly directed at protecting Kashmir and the not the "war on terror".



The author doesnt even seem to know what is going on in Kashmir...where is the Pakistani army protecting anyone from IA?
I doubt if the author knows much about Kashmir...seems its a hot topic so he rang up a couple of contacts in Pakistan and decided to write an article on it.



> Given the west's concern that Afghanistan is falling into the hands of the Taliban and the increased number of casualties on Nato's side, it would be in Britain's &#8211; and indeed America's &#8211; best interests to address Kashmir and *give the Pakistani army an extra hand in combating extremists on the Afghan border.* If the situation continues to escalate, the promise of leaving Afghanistan will be impossible to keep as Nato will have to count on fewer resources from Pakistan.



His argument is that the Pakistan army is unable to fight the talibs if Kashmir keeps on the boil...what sense does that make.

The Pakistan army is nowhere involved in the Indian side of Kashmir. He is trying to find a link between Pakistan insurgency and Kashmir where none exists....the article is trash.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

rejected....please re-read yaar



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I was more in line with Pakistan Nation's official stance that Kashmir is *disputed territory *and must be* treated thusly*.


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## Omar1984

bandit said:


> The author doesnt even seem to know what is going on in Kashmir



The author of the article is Lord Nazir Ahmed. 

Lord Nazir Ahmed is a member of the House of Lords, having become the United Kingdom's second Muslim life peer in 1998. He is also chair of the All Parties Parliamentary Group for Kashmir.

He was born in Azad Kashmir (The part of Kashmir under Pakistan).


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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> it isnt that it's a ''non-story''
> 
> it just doesnt get the coverage since the world seems to think that LoC is a permanent border and that the dispute is either solved or on back-burner
> 
> no point in talking about de-militarization and nuclear disarmament and other such things as long as conflicts like these exist......
> 
> by the way, it is no secret that Pakistan nation did/does/will provide diplomatic and moral support to all Kashmiris --regardless of which side of the de-facto LoC
> 
> even Prime Minister would tell you this reality; why put all focus on Army/ISI/etc.



Story is defined by the listners, and no one in the world today (of importance that it) buys the sob story paddled by some Pakistanis about Kashmir. As a matter of fact even GoP is now tired of the same and save a sporadic comment here and there, keeps mum on that..

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## CONNAN

Whose man is that soldier fighting in Kashmir? : India : Tarun Vijay : TOI Blogs


India must be the only country in the world where being an antinational murderer means a person or organization getting invitations for talks with the government. Mir Waiz and Geelani should have been booked months ago and punished for their anti-India activities. They not only instigated Kashmiri youth to attack our patriotic people and soldiers but also vitiated the entire atmosphere in the valley bringing normal life to a halt and using Kashmiri youth as fodder for their Pakistani plots, resulting in so many killings of young boys. The fact of the matter is that the killers in Kashmir are these two pro-Pakistani elements, who would have been taken to task by any government with a spine much earlier than their fangs grew more poisonous. In such a situation, instead of talking tough and straight, the government is not only giving confused signals to soften (whatever that means) the Armed Forces Special Powers Act but making gestures to terrorist supporters to come to talk. Talks, always a welcome way to find a solution, can be held or even an indication for a discussion can be sent only when the atmosphere is ripe for it and the other side, offenders in this case, show a willingness to come to terms. I must say Prime Minister Manmohan Singh sounded reasonable at the Armed Forces commanders meet on September 13 when he said: "The youth of Kashmir are our citizens and their grievances have to be addressed.We are willing to talk to every person or group which abjures violence, within the framework of our Constitution." But is this the time to extend an olive branch?

Have they ever thought what effect these gestures by the government have on the morale of the soldiers?

For whom is the Indian soldier fighting the battle in Kashmir?

It pains me immensely to see how our secular media sirens show their undiluted love for the separatists on TV screens and they go to the streets of Srinagar only to interview the unpatriotic people. When they invite any of the antinational separatists on their shows, they display an utter lack of sensitivity towards those who love their country and give all the space and time to those voices of insanity and violence with a soft, affectionate anchoring you seldom witness when they put on trial any leader showing patriotic leanings. There was hardly a time, except during the Kargil war, when the voices representing the soldiers were given a chance to come to the TV studios or have their say on the editorial pages of the media empires. He is despised, hated and made responsible for all the bad happenings, in a sweeping manner. No one has treid to see the hardened daily routine a soldier is subjected to from 6am to sunset, and after that the night vigil. Anything untoward happens and rogue actors like Salman Khan say meekly to the Pakistan media: Oh, it was the fault of the Indian security personnel. Salman should have been tried for treason. But we have people who lovingly go to his house and try to settle the issue. These very people and their governors make this day possible when anyone feels free to speak against the soldiers, against the national psyche of patriotism. A soldier is not a daily wage earner like the stone pelters. He is a representative of the nations time-honoured traditions. He is nurtured and nourished on a family's "khandaani izzat" - "Mera beta fauji hai". Ask any politician acting as an apologist for the separatist murderers, has he ever thought of sending his child to the forces? A family offers mannats at the feet of their wahe guru over devatas to ensure their son gets selected in the "fauj". He is trained by the best of the warriors at the National Defence Academy or the Indian Military Academy. Some lucky ones get selected early and go through the National Defence School route and see the pictures when they recommissioned - after a thrilling passing out parade in Dehradun. Their caps in the air and their moms and dads hugging them with moist eyes. Years of training and a life of a great Indian patriotic goes waste before the gang of rogue pro-Pakistan elements who have hardly any idea what they are demanding.

Whether he is in the Army or in CRPF, BSF or ITBP, the story is the same. He is there not because he wanted to loot and **** and maim people. He was sent by the Indian government to safeguard the interests of the nation and the Constitution. He is a uniformed gentleman. Those who blow the case of rights violation must be heard definitely. But can an individual's fault be attributed to the olive green or the khaki fraternity of the soldier? I absolutely agree with Manmohan Singh when he says "The youth of Kashmir are our citizens and their grievances have to be addressed". But this should be done through good governance and a mechanism that can win their trust and not through "Srinagar-CM-living-in-Delhi" type Omars who never find time to place a wreath on the body of a soldier martyred in Kashmir.

In fact, the killers of Kashmir are people like Mir Waiz and Geelani. The angst of Kashmir must be directed against them. The soldier would be too happy to go back to his barracks and celebrate Diwali and Eid with family.

In the secular sultanate of Delhis power brokers, a soldier is just another babu, another employee to be denied a justifiable demand of "one rank-one pension" by those politicians who raise their salaries 300% in a jiffy. And in the media he is a punching bag. Just read a poem an Indian soldier wrote (saw it on a blog; Ali, perhaps, was his name).

Why do I still serve you?

How you play with us, did you ever see?
At Seven, I had decided what I wanted to be;
I would serve you to the end,
All these boundaries I would defend.

Now you make me look like a fool,
When at seventeen and just out of school;
Went to the place where they made "men out of boys"
Lived a tough life sacrificed a few joys

In those days, I would see my "civilian" friends,
Living a life with the fashion trends;
Enjoying their so called "college days"
While I sweated and bled in the sun and haze
But I never thought twice about what where or why
All I knew was when the time came, I'd be ready to do or die.

At 21 and with my commission in hand,
Under the glory of the parade and the band,
I took the oath to protect you over land, air or sea,
And make the supreme sacrifice when the need came to be.

I stood there with a sense of recognition,
But on that day I never had the premonition,
that when the time came to give me my due,
You'd just say, "What is so great that you do?"

Long back you promised a well-to-do life;
And when I'm away, take care of my wife.
You came and saw the hardships I live through,
And I saw you make a note or two,
And I hoped you would realise the worth of me;
but now I know you'll never be able to see,
Because you only see the glorified life of mine,
Did you see the place where death looms all the time?
Did you meet the man standing guard in the snow?
The name of his newborn he does not know...
Did you meet the man whose father breathed his last?
While the sailor patrolled our seas so vast?

You still know I'll not be the one to raise my voice
I will stand tall and protect you in Punjab Himachal and Thois.

But that's just me you have in the sun and rain,
For now at twenty-four, you make me think again;
About the decision I made, seven years back;
Should I have chosen another life, some other track?

Will I tell my son to follow my lead?
Will I tell my son, you'll get all that you need?
This is the country you will serve
This country will give you all that you deserve?

I heard you tell the world "India is shining"
I told my men, that's a reason for us to be smiling
This is the India you and I will defend!
But tell me how long will you be able to pretend?
You go on promise all that you may,
But it's the souls of your own men you betray.

Did you read how some of our eminent citizens
Write about me and ridicule my very existence?
I ask you to please come and see what I do,
Come and have a look at what I go through
Live my life just for a day
Maybe you'll have something else to say?

I will still risk my life without a sigh
To keep your flag flying high
but today I ask myself a question or two
Oh India. Why do I still serve you?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

karan.1970 said:


> Story is defined by the listners, and no one in the world today (of importance that it) buys the sob story paddled by some Pakistanis about Kashmir.



how do you know? There are people out there who are informed. Idea is, how to reach those who don't.

and Pakistani side is Pakistani side. But the ones in question are the Kashmiris themselves, they should do the ''paddling'' (as you refer to it as)



> As a matter of fact even GoP is now tired of the same and save a sporadic comment here and there, keeps mum on that..



as spineless as they are, i think you're wrong on that. GoP released statement just a few days back when the occupational forces killed 4 teenagers (one of whom I believe had nothing to do with the protests)


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## bandit

Omar1984 said:


> The author of the article is Lord Nazir Ahmed.
> 
> Lord Nazir Ahmed is a member of the House of Lords, having become the United Kingdom's second Muslim life peer in 1998. He is also chair of the All Parties Parliamentary Group for Kashmir.
> 
> He was born in Azad Kashmir (The part of Kashmir under Pakistan).



Well that explains it, its written by a Pakistani.
Obviously he knows about whats going on in Kashmir, he just twisted the truth to give Kashmir more importance. I thought Guardian was a decent paper, how come he got his trash onto it.

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## somebozo

InPhilTraitor said:


> Of the 100 people who died in the valley in last 3 month, how many deaths are responsibility of Indian Army?
> 
> Take a guess ... Bingo the answer is ZERO 0.
> 
> 
> 
> This is what is called typical indian brahmin diplomacy. They are never responsible for bad and all creditable for good. Something goes wrong blame someone...after spending so many years working with indians..one can easily estimate their mindset.
Click to expand...


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## InPhilTraitor

> *My extensive contacts on the ground in Kashmir* have told me of the tortures, abuses, rapes and murders of innocent civilians that continue to pervade Kashmir and have failed to reach our radars due to the Indian government's censorship.



Very convenient. My extensive contacts in Great Britan told me that this dude "did not stop beating his wife".

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## Peshwa

Omar1984 said:


> The author of the article is Lord Nazir Ahmed.
> 
> Lord Nazir Ahmed is a member of the House of Lords, having become the United Kingdom's second Muslim life peer in 1998. He is also chair of the All Parties Parliamentary Group for Kashmir.
> 
> He was born in Azad Kashmir (The part of Kashmir under Pakistan).



David Cameron is the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom....

As PM of UK, he presides over the House of Lords and all things UK....

Below is what he had to say about Pakistan.....

I think scissor beats paper!

And I can guarantee you that Camerons "Contacts on ground" are more sound than those of Mr.Lord of Flies here.....



> In words which will be greeted with alarm in Islamabad, the Prime Minister also suggested that Pakistan had links with terrorist groups, and was guilty of double dealing by aligning itself with both the West and the forces it was opposing.





David Cameron: Pakistan is promoting the &lsquo;export of terror&rsquo; - Telegraph

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## Peshwa

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> it isnt that it's a ''non-story''
> 
> *it just doesnt get the coverage since the world seems to think that LoC is a permanent border and that the dispute is either solved or on back-burner*



Maybe it doesnt get coverage because of the fact that the world having faced the horrors of exported terror themselves are now aware of what India has had to face for the last two decades.......the world now understands who has been responsible for formenting trouble in Kashmir and why the army's role is nothing more than a re-action.......India is fighting its own WOT....Unfortunately...the fight happens to be with the same enemy the world is fighting...

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## compak

*Is Islamabad out of sync with the new generation of freedom fighters in Kashmir?*






_Images of Indian military brutality in occupied Kashmir are giving way to a new perception of India: 'The Ugly Indian'._​

ISLAMABAD, PakistanPakistan lost a friendly Afghanistan after 2001. Now it looks set to lose Kashmir eight years later.

Youd think the latest uprising in Kashmir against Indian occupation is a godsend for Pakistan, which has been championing the cause for three generations.

But all signs indicate that Pakistan is losing the respect and trust of Kashmirs younger generation. This is similar to the way Islamabad lost the admiration and trust of the Afghan Pashtun during the last eight years, and the trust of a large chunk of Pakistani Pashtun, who remain loyal despite severe setbacks.

Kashmir was never Indias despite the forced annexation. So its a lost cause for India anyway. But the danger is that it could turn into a lost cause for Islamabad as well.

Unlike India, Pakistan still has time to stop that from happening.

If the gap widens between Pakistan and Kashmirs new generation of young freedom leaders, third parties might try to hijack the movement away from its essentially pro-Pakistan character. Many of Pakistans antagonists believe that if Kashmir cant be Indias, it shouldnt also be Pakistans.

Pakistans dilemma can be traced to the bad strategic choices that its leadership made in the eight years since 9/11, putting the interests of others before its own.

Pakistani officials, civilian and military, can see that this policy has strategically impaired Pakistan. And theres no better example than Kashmir.

By now, Pakistan shouldve been on top of the courageous popular uprising where kids, women and young men are unanimous in rejecting an Indian occupation army of rapists and killers.

Islamabad should have moved beyond the verbal to the practical, smuggling in food supplies and medicines and allowing freedom fighters from within the Kashmiris in Azad (Free) Kashmir to cross into the occupied portion to help their brethren face the Indian tyranny in self defense.

But so bad is Pakistans strategic environment that mere talk of this brings embarrassing smiles in Islamabads power corridors these days. Pakistans leadership has never been as impotent as it is today.

We have already alienated large segments of Kashmiris when former president Pervez Musharraf ended Pakistani support for Kashmiri freedom fighters in the hope that India would buy his Kashmir formulas and help him emerge as the superman of peace [India didnt, thank God, a decision it now regrets]. He also allowed India to build tens of small- and medium-sized dams on Kashmiri rivers by ordering Pakistani military units along LoC to stand down enough for Indian construction workers to proceed.

And now we have his successor government, led by President Zardari, which takes its cue on Kashmir from Richard Holbrooke who says he cant be seen uttering what he degradingly calls the K-word.

What has gone unnoticed in this grim picture is that Pakistani diplomats and military officials have quietly reversed many of the policy wrongs listed above. Kashmir now is an urgent international dispute and Pakistan wont follow any dubious formulas for its resolution and would stick to the many UN Security Council resolutions on Kashmir.

That taken care of, Pakistan now needs to catch up with the kids of Kashmir.

Young Kashmiris are maximizing the power of Internet and social media to break the wall of Indian censorship.

Pakistan has several news agencies, like the Kashmir Media Service, exclusively focused on spreading the word on Kashmir internationally. But despite their good intentions, they live in the 20th century.

Pakistan Foreign Office has no public diplomacy sections, no hired talent that can pick a cause like Kashmir and turn it into a catchword in the trendy worlds of television and cyberspace.

Pakistans giant state-run media and the private 80+ television news channels are incapable of conveying Kashmirs voice to a global audience in an attractive way. Compare that to how young Kashmiris are creating compelling videos of Indian military atrocities and posting them to YouTube.

Pakistan should also get out of the post-9/11 apologetic mode on Kashmiri freedom groups. The United States blackmailed the Pakistani government in 2002 to lump these groups together with al Qaeda. Recently, Washington has been fronting for India on a Kashmiri group, Lashkar e Tayyiba, or LeT, comparing it to al Qaeda and talking about the Kashmiri groups global reach. Indo-American attempts to link Kashmir to terrorism should also be smartly countered.

*It is time Pakistan drew a red line: Kashmiri resistance to Indian terrorism targeting civilians is legitimate under international law.

As a last option, lets recall Chinas lesson on Hong Kong: Stick to your claim and never settle.

Our choices are clear and time is short: Pakistan can either win Kashmirs young guns, or lose them forever.*

Is Pakistan Losing Young Kashmiris?


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## indopak

*Kashmir Is Too Small For Azadi*

Headline on CNN about Leh floods: Death toll from Kashmir flooding rises to 112
Correction: Leh is not in Kashmir. There was no flooding in Kashmir.

A Vaishno Devi Pilgrim: I just returned from Kashmir. Things are peaceful there.
Correction: Jammu is not in Kashmir. There is no jehad in Jammu.

A University of Texas Website Article: refers to the 1999 war in Kargil, Kashmir
Correction: Kargil is not in Kashmir. It is in Ladakh province.

One of the frequent gripes that Kashmiris have about people from mainland India is that they dont understand Kashmir and Kashmiris. That is true to a large extent. One of the myths that needs to be broken is that Kashmir is J&K, because it is actually only a small part of it  6.98% to be exact. Even the saying that From Kashmir to Kanyakumari, India is one is not correctly worded because Kashmir is not the Northernmost part of India; Ladakh is. And if you believe in the official Indian map, then Gilgit and Aksai Chin are the Northernmost parts, none of these being part of Kashmir. Kashmir is well South of the Northern tip of India, so it is a natural part of India. Even Azad Kashmir or *** (Pakistan Occupied Kashmir) is not Kashmir. In this blog post I will explain why this discussion is important, considering the existing imbroglio going on in the Kashmir valley.

It has served some of the players in the game well to confuse the issue of Kashmirs location and boundaries as much as possible. Most people, when asked about where Kashmir is on a map, will point to the head shape on the top of an Indian map and say here it is! (see the black arrow in the map below). They could not be farther from the truth. Look at the following map and see for yourself where Kashmir actually is.









The above official Indian map shows the complete state of Jammu and Kashmir as part of India, and the rough boundaries of Kashmir are shown in red. For a more non-partisan view, click the map on the right from Wikipedia, showing the Kashmir valley within a red boundary line.

Now, what is the difference between Kashmir and the state of Jammu and Kashmir? Well, Kashmir is the dispute and J&K is not. Kashmir is the Muslim majority area and other parts of J&K are not. Kashmir is what is shouting Go India Go (This is not a cheer in Kashmir!) and other parts are happy being India. Kashmir is a small part of Jammu and Kashmir. Compare the following land areas:
*Area of Kashmir: 15,520.3 sq km*
*Area of J&K under Indian Control: ~101,400 sq km*
*Total Area of Undivided J&K: 222,236 sq km *

*Thus Kashmir is about 7% in area of undivided J&K, and about 15% of J&K under Indian control.*

So, how do you define Kashmir? Well, the best way to define it is to ask Kashmiris themselves. In Kashmiri language, everything outside the valley is called nebar, i.e., outside or foreign. Kashmir is a geographically smaller portion of the larger state of Jammu and Kashmir, which comprises the provinces of Jammu, Kashmir, and Ladakh. Kashmir is Kashmir province only, comprising of previously undivided districts of Anantnag, Baramulla and Srinagar (now divided into 10 smaller districts). Kashmir is where Kashmiris natively live and where Kashmiri language is natively spoken. It is also this region of Kashmir that has dominated the politics of the region for the last 63 years.

Now, why is this distinction between Kashmir and J&K always fudged and why is this distinction important? It is this small part of the state that is a pain in the neck for India, because it is this Muslim majority portion that is holding the whole state and region to ransom. It is this Muslim majority portion of 7% of the state that cannot see itself fitting in a non-Muslim India. Jammu in the South of the state has a Hindu majority population, ethnically similar to neighboring states of Punjab and Himachal Pradesh; Ladakh in the North of the state has predominantly Buddhist and Muslim population, ethnically similar to neighboring Tibet. Both are fine being India. It is just Kashmir that is inhabited by a large majority of Muslims (97%) that cannot see itself being India. The small population of non-Muslims has diminished with each migration and a history of conversions over decades and centuries. It is this geographically small portion that is the tinderbox of violence. It is this beautiful valley that was called Heaven on Earth and has now been turned into hell by the Islamic separatist violence. It is the majority of inhabitants of this small area (not of the state) who are clamoring for azadi (independence) for this small land of Kashmir. The diversity of the state fits perfectly well within diverse India, but this diversity does not belong to the green-flag waving, stone pelting separatists of Kashmir.

It has been a political compulsion for every party in the game to keep the disparate parts of this former princely state cobbled together. Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh have nothing at all in common. Each has its own dominant ethnicity, its own dominant religion, its own topography, its own climate, its own diverse culture, its own distinct major language. No other state in the region has such intra-state diversity. Even Indias linguistic reorganization of states in the 1950s did not result in a division of J&K because of its special status. India apparently wants to keep the state together because Jammu and Ladakh act as a bond between Kashmir and the rest of India. India perhaps thinks that separating Kashmir out will be the first step towards its complete secession from India. Pakistan, on the other hand also keeps J&K clubbed together so that it can lay claim to the whole state and perhaps negotiate away the non-Muslim areas if it comes to a negotiation. For the same reason, apparently, they named the area they occupied as AJK (Azad Jammu Kashmir) when it is neither Azad nor Jammu nor Kashmir. The languages spoken in *** are Pahari, Mirpuri, Gojri, Hindko, Punjabi, Pashto (Wikipedia) and none of these languages is even close to Kashmiri. The people living in *** are ethnically different from Kashmiris. This also means that the LoC has created no divided families.

But what is the compulsion of Kashmiri separatists to keep talking about J&K, when they actually are only bothered about Kashmir? Kashmiri Muslims, in their arguments against Indian rule say that they are ethnically different, they have a different dominant religion, and so on. Most of them dont see themselves as Indians. But then, it is exactly those things that set them apart from Ladakhis and Jammuites, who do see themselves as Indians. In fact, Kashmiri Muslims have been fighting against the rule of Dogra King from Jammu even before they started fighting against Indian rule. So, how do they resolve this paradox? How can they lay claim to other conquests or purchases of the Dogra king when they fought against being under the Dogra king himself. Ladakh, Baltistan, and Gilgit were not even part of the state when Dogras purchased it from the British. Apparenlty, Kashmiris have two main reasons for talking about J&K, rather than Kashmir  one, since Pakistan no longer remains a flauntable destination, and with Islamic extremism having lost its flavor the world over, they need to be seen as desirous of a secular azadi, rather than an Islamic accession to Pakistan; secondly, it gives them something to bargain for with India.

The fact that Kashmir is actually a very small part of Jammu and Kashmir has other ramifications too. Since Jammu and Ladakh are happy being part of India, it makes no sense to impose so called azadi on them. Now that leaves Kashmir with its 15000 sq km area as one of worlds smallest land locked countries  bigger than only Vatican City, Luxembourg and couple of other non-countries. How valid and how long-lived will this independence driven by Islamic fanaticism be? Obviously, since they will have just divorced India, they will be absorbed into Pakistan in no time. This is what some of the Kashmiri leaders want in the first place, but is that what most Kashmiris are bargaining for? Will they get a special status like Article 370 in Pakistan? Does such a small land area have enough resources to sustain itself as a country?

The fact that Kashmir is actually a small part of Jammu and Kashmir also negates the democracy logic for separation of Kashmir from India. Yes, majority is authority in a democracy, but the majority concentrated in a 7-15% area of a state taking or influencing a decision for the whole state is equally undemocratic for the rest of the state. Why would a Dogra person living in Kathua want to live under Nizam-e-Mustafa? Kashmir is flanked on three sides by areas which are definitely India, and on the fourth side by an area occupied by Pakistan. For a sovereign democratic country, how large does a locality have to be to give its residents a right of self-determination? For the sake of democracy, does it make sense to ask a Muslim majority mohalla in Hyderabad or Meerut whether they want to stay in India? In fact, if we give any credence to Kashmiri Hindus demand for their piece of the homeland (Panun Kashmir), which they want to be an integral part of India, Kashmiri separatists are left with even less of a country.

In retrospect, the only solution that would have made more sense would have been, in 1947, to carve out the valley and give it to Pakistan. That did not happen because of the incongruent composition of the state  a Hindu king ruling a state composed of Hindu, Buddhist and Muslim regions. If that had happened, the region would have been much more peaceful. My community (the Kashmiri Hindus) would have been settled in other parts of India, just like other migrants from Pakistan were. Whether Kashmiri Muslims would still have been happy, it is hard to tell. But I am sure there would have been no freedom movement. Now, with hindsight being 20/20, Kashmiris should thank heavens for the incidents of 1947 and be happy they are not part of the failed state of Pakistan.

Azadi just doesnt make any sense to me. If Kashmiri Muslims see themselves primarily as Muslims aligned with Pakistan, then accession to Pakistan makes sense. If they see themselves as secular, inclusive people, then what is wrong with being part of India? All others in the state, other than Muslims of the valley, see themselves as Indians.

As an Indian, I see it clearly that the trouble in the valley has reached cancerous proportions. Although it is hard to stop the rest of the country from bleeding in case of an extreme measure, it may make more sense to either cure it completely or cut it off. Either integrate the valley completely into India (no Article 370, no autonomy, no special status) or cut it off. Blast the Banihal Tunnel and let them go to. heaven. Kashmiris should however stop the hypocrisy of secularism, azadi and caring about Jammu and Ladakh. Go be independent or join Pakistan and see if your future generations are thankful to you for that. Given the small size of Kashmir, and the size of area already with Pakistan and China, it wont make much difference to Indias map. And then, who is to stop us from keeping showing it in Indias map? 

It is painful to see the violence, the killings, the inconveniences in Kashmir. But why are people getting killed? Is the presence of army in Kashmir the reason, or the consequence of the separatist movement? If the religion inspired protests end in Kashmir, would anyone be hurt? Kashmiri separatists know the answer to this. They know they can stop getting their children killed any day, but then, how will they get Sharia and Nizam-e-Mustafa?

However, no-one in the Indian government has the willpower to facilitate either of the extreme solutions  full integration or full severance. So, it is in the interest of Kashmiri Muslims to go for status quo ante: give up fighting, stop the anti-India jihad and start going to schools, offices, cinemas, gyms, even bars. Go into pre-1989 mode, sans Hindus. Hindus have already been pushed out  they will never return. They have never returned in the past  just keep renewing your fake invitations. You can continue dominating the rest of the state. With Article 370 intact, you make sure you can settle down anywhere in India, but no outsider settles down in Kashmir. So, you can have the best of everything. Just drop the stones.

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## Omar1984

bandit said:


> Well that explains it, its written by a Pakistani.



Lord Nazir Ahmed is British of Kashmiri descent. Yes all Kashmiris are Pakistanis so you can say he is a Pakistani.


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## bandit

Omar1984 said:


> Lord Nazir Ahmed is British of Kashmiri descent. Yes all Kashmiris are Pakistanis so you can say he is a Pakistani.



descent hardly matters...by that logic all Pakistanis are Indians.

He's supporting Pakistan with his half-true writings...pretty much a Pakistani for me.

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## FreekiN

When someone says "Kashmir" 

They mean that entire state.

The circled region is just where the population is concentrated.


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## Omar1984

bandit said:


> descent hardly matters...by that logic all Pakistanis are Indians.
> 
> He's supporting Pakistan with his half-true writings...pretty much a Pakistani for me.



The vast majority of Pakistanis were never born in india.

Lord Nazir Ahmed was born in Azad Kashmir. He is originally from Azad Kashmir. Azad Kashmir is also Kashmir, so that makes him of Kashmiri descent.

Lord Nazir Ahmed was born in Mirpur, Azad Kashmir and is a nephew of late Kalyal Mohammand Yousaf who was also a member of Mahraja Hari singhs's perjah Sabah in 1944, but soon after his birth his family migrated to the UK, where he was brought up.


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## InPhilTraitor

FreekiN said:


> When someone says "Kashmir"
> 
> They mean that entire state.
> 
> The circled region is just where the population is concentrated.



The whole state is called Jammu & Kashmir.. 
Kashmir means the valley..

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## SandsofTime

Lame excuse. The whole of Kashmir region including Ladakh is a disputed territory and up for negotiation when the right time comes. A small population of Ladakh cannot override the wishes of a larger population of IOK and Azad Kashmir. J&K is historically a united state and its future will have to be decided on that basis.


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## Hulk

Good one, I agree to this and see how they are trying to fool the world. 7&#37; people voice cannot be majority.


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## Hulk

The recent violence in Kashmir has made sure nobody will care for them. No one wants to side with people of Jehadi mentality.

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## bandit

FreekiN said:


> When someone says "Kashmir"
> 
> *They mean that entire state*.
> 
> The circled region is just where the population is concentrated.



That is the notion the writer is trying to dispel. In geographical terms the use my be not a problem, but when the demand for Azadi is considered, only the valley demands it. Their demand for azadi is not supported by the other regions, why should they be dragged into the religious fanaticism?

Kashmiris in the valley do not own Ladakh or Jammu, people from Ladakh and Jammu do, it will be their choice.

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## InPhilTraitor

SandsofTime said:


> Lame excuse. The whole of Kashmir region including Ladakh is a disputed territory and up for negotiation when the right time comes. A small population of Ladakh cannot override the wishes of a larger population of IOK and Azad Kashmir. J&K is historically a united state and its future will have to be decided on that basis.


punjab was historically united too. Valley is the only place there is unrest, and don't you remember how Jammuites have blockaded the Valley, after the kashmiris acted like idiots when giving land to lease for a temple (no wonder they have successfully executed a genocide).

They are not one people.


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## StingRoy

FreekiN said:


> When someone says "Kashmir"
> 
> They mean that entire state.
> 
> The circled region is just where the population is concentrated.



Beg to differ here... 
*Geographically* you can claim the whole of J&K as Kashmir... but *Ethnically* you only call the Kashmiri Muslims as your brothers.... what about the rest of the Hindus and Buddhists in the state of J&K... I doubt you would really care about them... would you. Then, Why drag them into this discussion? They are more than happy to be a part of India and contributing to the economy as the rest of us.

Now about the people of Kashmir Valley... the only possible solution that I see is to carve it our as an autonomous entity under the Indian constitution and merge the rest of J&K into a Jammu & Ladakh. This ensures Kashmiri interests (both majority and minority) are honoured and respected.

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## Omar1984

indopak said:


> *
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The above official Indian map shows the complete state of Jammu and Kashmir as part of India.*


*

Since when did that became the official map of india?

Gilgit-Baltistan and Azad Kashmir are under Pakistan's control. Aksai Chin is under China's control. Jammu, Kashmir Valley, and Ladak is under india's control.*


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## Star of David

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> it isnt that it's a ''non-story''
> 
> it just doesnt get the coverage since the world seems to think that LoC is a permanent border and that the dispute is either solved or on back-burner
> 
> no point in talking about de-militarization and nuclear disarmament and other such things as long as conflicts like these exist......
> 
> by the way, it is no secret that Pakistan nation did/does/will provide diplomatic and moral support to all Kashmiris --regardless of which side of the de-facto LoC
> 
> even Prime Minister would tell you this reality; why put all focus on Army/ISI/etc.



Well what you forgot to mention is that HIndu Kashmiri's aren't given any help, instead they re slaughtered like animals. So don't make it an issue for all Kashmiri's ....you guys have shown this is all abut Islam nothing more nothing less.

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## bandit

Omar1984 said:


> Since when did that became the official map of india?
> 
> Gilgit-Baltistan and Azad Kashmir are under Pakistan's control. Aksai Chin is under China's control. Jammu, Kashmir Valley, and Ladak is under india's control.



Its always been the official map of India, and it has a legal standing backed by the Instrument of Accesion.

Your map showing GB as Pakistan however has no legal standing with even your Govt acknowledging as AJK and not defacto part of Pakitsan. Pakistanis just like to believe Kashmir is theirs.

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## Omar1984

bandit said:


> Its always been the official map of India, and it has a legal standing backed by the Instrument of Accesion.
> 
> Your map showing GB as Pakistan however has no legal standing with even your Govt acknowledging as AJK and not defacto part of Pakitsan. Pakistanis just like to believe Kashmir is theirs.



Utter Hypocrisy !!!!!!!!!!

India refused to recognize the accession of Junagadh to Pakistan and Hyderabad's independence, on the grounds that those two states had Hindu majorities (in fact, India occupied and forcibly integrated those two territories). 

And by the way, why is it that to this day india never showed the documents signed by the hindu maharaja, who fled and left the Kashmiri people suffering under bharat rule.


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## Star of David

SandsofTime said:


> Lame excuse. The whole of Kashmir region including Ladakh is a disputed territory and up for negotiation when the right time comes. A small population of Ladakh cannot override the wishes of a larger population of IOK and Azad Kashmir. J&K is historically a united state and its future will have to be decided on that basis.


 

Yeah right....Then all of pakistan is up for negotiation when the time is right


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## Donatello

So what is the article trying to imply?


You cannot compare Afghanistan with Kashmir. Kashmir is disputed region, while no one disputes Afghanistan.

Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan are free as much as any other province, probably even more then Balochistan. People can move around easily, so what's the problem?


About Afghanistan, i love how they blame Pakistan, but majority of them or their loved ones spent safer lives as refugees in Pakistan. I wonder what would have happened had we brutally kicked them out or never let them in.


Humans are never satisfied i guess...


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## SpArK

Omar1984 said:


> Utter Hypocrisy !!!!!!!!!!
> 
> India refused to recognize the accession of Junagadh to Pakistan and Hyderabad's independence, on the grounds that those two states had Hindu majorities (in fact, India occupied and forcibly integrated those two territories).
> 
> And by the way, *why is it that to this day india never showed the documents signed by the hindu maharaja, who fled and left the Kashmiri people suffering under bharat rule*.





http://www.defence.pk/forums/989348-post1.html

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## StingRoy

Omar1984 said:


> Since when did that became the official map of india?
> 
> Gilgit-Baltistan and Azad Kashmir are under Pakistan's control. Aksai Chin is under China's control. Jammu, Kashmir Valley, and Ladak is under india's control.



Omar... this is the official map of India since 1947.... GB, P0K and Aksai Chin are under illegal foreign occupation... that is the official stance. As you consider the whole of current J&K as Kashmir... We claim Kashmir as the whole of GB, P0K, Indian Kashmir, Ladakh, Jammu & Aksai Chin.

Another thing I am not able to digest is why are our Pakistani members bothered about non-Muslims (majority of Ladakh and Jammu). Your country was formulated entirely based on Islam and how are you willing to associate yourself with the interests of Hindus and Buddhists exactly?

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## SpArK



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## Donatello

bandit said:


> Its always been the official map of India, and it has a legal standing backed by the Instrument of Accesion.
> 
> Your map showing GB as Pakistan however has no legal standing with even your Govt acknowledging as AJK and not defacto part of Pakitsan. Pakistanis just like to believe Kashmir is theirs.



Kid,

Is Gilgit-Baltistan in India?
Is Indian Army, Civilian Government commanding the rule of law in Gilgit-Baltistan?
I doubt that.

It is semi-autonomous province of Pakistan now. People are living calmly there.
Gilgit-Baltistan just got a new Army formation plus a full Judicial High Court formation in under way just like any of other provinces in Pakistan.

Whether India claims it or not, wouldn't change the reality on ground.


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## Omar1984

BENNY said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/989348-post1.html



I dont know how authentic this document is.

Well this hindu maharaja who ruled a Muslim majority land was regarded as a tyrant by most Kashmiris, and the Maharaja used brute force to suppress the population.

Anyways, Junagadh's king singned Instrument of Accession to Pakistan. Junagadh had a Muslim ruler and a hindu majority population, india occupied and forcibly integrated that territory. 

So dont talk about Instrument of Accession hypocrites.


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## InPhilTraitor

> About Afghanistan, i love how they blame Pakistan, but majority of them or their loved ones spent safer lives as refugees in Pakistan. I wonder what would have happened had we brutally kicked them out or never let them in.



Huh! It is very indicative of many pakistanis who live in the West and constantly rail against US/UK and Europe 24/7 on this forum.. The vile is worst from the ones who are in UK.


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## bandit

Omar1984 said:


> Utter Hypocrisy !!!!!!!!!!
> 
> India refused to recognize the accession of Junagadh to Pakistan and Hyderabad's independence, on the grounds that those two states had Hindu majorities (in fact, India occupied and forcibly integrated those two territories).
> 
> And by the way, why is it that to this day india never showed the documents signed by the hindu maharaja, who fled and left the Kashmiri people suffering under bharat rule.



This thread isn't about Junagadh or Hyderabad, if you got something to say about those say it on their threads I'll reply you there.




> And by the way, why is it that to this day* india never showed the documents signed by the hindu maharaja*, who fled and left the Kashmiri people suffering under bharat rule



I'm not here to Baby-sit you and give you whatever you demand, you are litereate enough to use the net if you can spout out here, so if you havent got anything to say about the article, spare me.

*IoA Kashmir-*




[/IMG]

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## SpArK

Omar1984 said:


> *I dont know how authentic this document is.*
> 
> 
> .





That guy ( the kIng) is long dead so its hard for me to prove its authanticity.. so be content with what the world believes.


Instrument of Accession (Jammu and Kashmir) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




> Well this hindu maharaja who ruled a Muslim majority land was regarded as a tyrant by most Kashmiris, and the Maharaja used brute force to suppress the population.




Was he also CRPF or BSF... 

Just kidding..

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## bandit

penumbra said:


> Kid,
> 
> Is Gilgit-Baltistan in India?
> Is Indian Army, Civilian Government commanding the rule of law in Gilgit-Baltistan?
> I doubt that.
> 
> It is semi-autonomous province of Pakistan now. People are living calmly there.
> Gilgit-Baltistan just got a new Army formation plus a full Judicial High Court formation in under way just like any of other provinces in Pakistan.
> 
> Whether India claims it or not, wouldn't change the reality on ground.



Sheer stupidity.

AJK is not a part of Pakistan according to the Pakistan government. It has its own constitution, President and all that.

And according to Indian constitution it is in India. 

Get your facts right before you come and start spouting garbage here.

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## Peshwa

AhmadQureshi.com......Need I go any further....

The above is to prevent those naive readers from wasting 5 minutes of their precious life....unfortunately for me....They arent coming back...

PS: I especially like the kindergarten art on the pic....I recommend "Ugly monster" would have been a more appropriate title....


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## hecj

trolling by ahmed qureshi


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## Ancientmodern

Omar1984 said:


> Utter Hypocrisy !!!!!!!!!!
> 
> India refused to recognize the accession of Junagadh to Pakistan and Hyderabad's independence, on the grounds that those two states had Hindu majorities (in fact, India occupied and forcibly integrated those two territories).
> 
> And by the way, why is it that to this day india never showed the documents signed by the hindu maharaja, who fled and left the Kashmiri people suffering under bharat rule.




Junagadh was land locked and a plebiscite was held and 99% people voted in favour of India. Same was with Hyderabad. There was no genocide of Muslims in these two places unlike in Kashmir were Hindus were killed/murdered and forced to leave. 

As for kashmir and Maharaja, listen to what you own first Chief of PAF of independent pakistan has to say.






Secondly if you really care so much about muslims of Kashmir then you are free to ask them to come and stay in Pakistan. Kashmir was part of India and will remain that way

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## Donatello

bandit said:


> Sheer stupidity.
> 
> AJK is not a part of Pakistan according to the Pakistan government. It has its own constitution, President and all that.
> 
> And according to Indian constitution it is in India.
> 
> Get your facts right before you come and start spouting garbage here.






Careful there,

AJK are two different entities.

As i said, your post was about Gilgit-Baltistan....formerly known as Northern Areas, part of the larger Disputed Kashmir region.

Now you and your schizophrenic government considers it part of India, but the truth is, can you walk in there just like that?
I can.



Go and take a look at Atlas, where Gilgit is.


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## Omar1984

Ancientmodern said:


> Junagadh was land locked and a plebiscite was held and 99&#37; people voted in favour of India. Same was with Hyderabad.




And where is the plebiscite that Nehru promised to the People of Kashmir?


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## Omar1984

*Gilani condemns human rights violations in held Kashmir 
​*
ISLAMABAD, Sep 21 (APP): Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani on Tuesday underlined importance of Kashmir issue and condemned human rights violations in held Kashmir. &#8220;We condemn violations of human rights in held Kashmir. It is an important issue and Monday&#8217;s resolution has sensitized international community on these violations,&#8221; he said in National Assembly in response to a point raised by Chairman Parliamentary Kashmir Committee, Maulana Fazlur Rehman.


He said it is for the first time that Chair kashmir Committee is going to United Nation on this issue.

The Prime Minister also expressed concerns on reporting regarding arrest of Maulana Fazlur Rehman. &#8220;What concern Maulana has raised is painful. He is honorable member of the House and Chair as custodian of the House should also take notice of it and protect rights of the members.&#8221;

He said Maulana Fazlur Rehman has been elected Chairman of Kashmir Committee unanimously by the House and he is a respectable member.
Gilani also asked Ministries of Interior and Foreign Affairs to take notice of this report and inform the House.

He also requested media to show responsibility in reporting on sensitive issues and said, we shall appreciate responsible reporting.

Deputy Speaker National Assembly Faisal Karim Kundi also included Ministry of Information and Broadcasting with other two ministries to investigate the report. 

Earlier, Maulana Fazlur Rehman had informed the House about a report on a private channel regarding his arrest in Doha on way to United States saying, this report was baseless and concocted. &#8220;I have not yet been issued visa. I am here and the report is baseless and meant to tarnish my image.&#8221;

Fazl said he was going abroad as Chairman Kashmir Committee on an official visit and sought ruling from the Chair on this report.


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## InPhilTraitor

> India refused to recognize the accession of Junagadh to Pakistan and Hyderabad's independence, on the grounds that those two states had Hindu majorities (in fact, India occupied and forcibly integrated those two territories).



 Another Pakistani Uber-intellectual, talking about Hyderabad. I have replied about the whole thing in other thread.

I would recommend Mr.Uber Intellectual to read about Telangana Rebellion, Razakkars in Hyderabad, Operation Polo/ Hyderabad Police Action.

You may also want to read about demographics and Hyderabad state. 

In summary except for a few people in the Nizam royalty, every one including poor muslim farmers suffering from the tyranny of Nizam wanted to be part of India. You can see that example in Telengana rebellion where poor muslims were picking chilli powder and running after police forces of Nizam. Nizam and his Arab General, wanted to be Independent, but with matter of days they have surrendered with a total of 4 people dying in the entire police action.

India took the cleanest route to integration. With a wink and nod, if India provided the rebels of State Congress and Communist party workers, with weapons, they would have hanged him in King Koti (a place where Nizam resided) upside down.

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## hecj

condemnation dont affect any thing.pak have to accept their and our realities.


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## Donatello

InPhilTraitor said:


> Another Pakistani Uber-intellectual, talking about Hyderabad. I have replied about the whole thing in other thread.
> 
> I would recommend Mr.Uber Intellectual to read about Telangana Rebellion, Razakkars in Hyderabad, Operation Polo/ Hyderabad Police Action.
> 
> You may also want to read about demographics and Hyderabad state.
> 
> In summary except for a few people in the Nizam royalty, every one including poor muslim farmers suffering from the tyranny of Nizam wanted to be part of India. You can see that example in Telengana rebellion where poor muslims were picking chilli powder and running after police forces of Nizam. Nizam and his Arab General, wanted to be Independent, but with matter of days they have surrendered with a total of 4 people dying in the entire police action.
> 
> India took the cleanest route to integration. With a wink and nod, if India provided the rebels of State Congress and Communist party workers, with weapons, they would have hanged him in King Koti (a place where Nizam resided) upside down.






The first sentence pretty much sums your post up. We can say the same about you.


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## bandit

penumbra said:


> Careful there,
> 
> AJK are two different entities.
> 
> As i said, your post was about Gilgit-Baltistan....formerly known as Northern Areas, part of the larger Disputed Kashmir region.
> 
> Now you and your schizophrenic government considers it part of India, but the truth is, can you walk in there just like that?
> I can.
> 
> Go and take a look at Atlas, where Gilgit is.



Me and my schizophrenic govt have a legal right to that, pending the plebiscite.

You just have your occupation there, but no legal right. And just before you start off about the plebiscite; there are preconditions to that.


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## Omar1984

*Pakistan pleads for US intervention on Kashmir 
​*
NEW YORK  Pakistan on Tuesday urged the United States to pressure India over Kashmir, saying recent unrest showed that New Delhi and not Islamabad was to blame for trouble in the Himalayan territory.

On a visit to New York for a UN session on Pakistan's devastating floods, Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi insisted his government wanted peace with India but tore into its rule of Kashmir which he called "oppression."

*"The occupation cannot continue. The rights of the Kashmiri people cannot continue to be denied," Qureshi said at the Council on Foreign Relations, a think-tank.*

"We call upon the United States particularly, which is pressing so responsibly for peace in the Middle East, to also invest its political capital in trying to help seek an accommodation on Kashmir," he said.

"Such an accommodation would not only be just for the people of Kashmir but would be critical for peace in the region," he said, warning that "terrorism... has fueled and thrived on blatant examples of social and political injustice."

President Barack Obama's administration is seeking a broader relationship with India but also friendlier ties with Pakistan, a key battleground in the fight against Islamic extremism.

India considers Kashmir a domestic issue and rejects any foreign involvement. The Obama administration has steered clear of Kashmir after early statements triggered a backlash in India.

Kashmir, a Himalayan territory with a Muslim majority but a sizeable Hindu minority, has been disputed between India and Pakistan since independence and triggered two full-fledged wars between them.

An insurgency erupted on the Indian side in 1989 but had subsided in recent years. Indian authorities, along with some outside experts, say that Pakistan actively supported Islamic guerrillas who sneaked across the frontier.

*But in recent weeks, waves of protesters have turned to the streets to rally against Indian rule in Kashmir. Security forces have shot dead more than 100 demonstrators.

"At times it's easy for the Indians to look toward Pakistan and blame Pakistan for everything that's going wrong in Indian-occupied Kashmir," Qureshi said.

But he said "no one any longer can seriously believe this."

"Can Pakistan orchestrate thousands of people? Can Pakistan plan, sitting in Islamabad, a shutdown all over Kashmir?" he said*


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## InPhilTraitor

I am really afraid Pakistan may succeed in getting Obama to intervene in Kashmir. The day he does that, I hope the Indian lobby in USA will write their Fat Checks to Republican party. He already pissed of Jewish lobby with anti-israel talk.

Obama ==Bad for India







bowing to islamic autocrats is speciality of obama


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## siegecrossbow

InPhilTraitor said:


> I am really afraid Pakistan may succeed in getting Obama to intervene in Kashmir. The day he does that, I hope the Indian lobby in USA will write their Fat Checks to Republican party. He already pissed of Jewish lobby with anti-israel talk.
> 
> Obama ==Bad for India
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bowing to islamic autocrats is speciality of obama



Why is Sarkozy laughing in the background?

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## hecj

let the ppl shout and ask others.btw obama has to sign 3.5 billion deal and may be mrca with 200 billion dollar nuclear market.

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## InPhilTraitor

siegecrossbow said:


> Why is Sarkozy laughing in the background?



Sarkozy was singing ..

"How low can you go? How low can you go?"....


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## illuzioN

comon guys chill out!... cant we all get along? we have other important matters to worry about (IRAN)


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## gubbi

illuzioN said:


> comon guys chill out!... cant we all get along? we have other important matters to worry about (IRAN)



LOL. Amusingly, IRAN is a non-issue vis-a-vis Indo-Pak relations (or lack thereof). Its US's, EU's, Israle's and Sunni majority gulf monarchies' headache.

On topic: Not Happening. US will NOT/cannot interfere in Kashmir, especially NOT on Pakistan's behalf.

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## Hulk

The recent violence in Kashmir has made sure nobody will care for them. No one wants to side with people of Jehadi mentality.

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## Hulk

US will not interfere in Kashmir, as Kashmir is clearly become and issue of religious fanatism. No one will like to encourage fanatics, while stone pelting was going in favor of Kashmir, excessive stone pelting is going against. Since people than see them as violent people. We should also try to make world believe that people of Kashmir should be controlled otherwise it will 
become SWAT. That's all and no one will care what happens there, if some people because of their violent behavior cannot adjust then so be it.

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## Pk_Thunder

Omar1984 said:


> *Pakistan pleads for US intervention on Kashmir
> ​*
> NEW YORK &#8212; Pakistan on Tuesday urged the United States to pressure India over Kashmir, saying recent unrest showed that New Delhi and not Islamabad was to blame for trouble in the Himalayan territory.
> 
> On a visit to New York for a UN session on Pakistan's devastating floods, Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi insisted his government wanted peace with India but tore into its rule of Kashmir which he called "oppression."
> 
> *"The occupation cannot continue. The rights of the Kashmiri people cannot continue to be denied," Qureshi said at the Council on Foreign Relations, a think-tank.*
> 
> "We call upon the United States particularly, which is pressing so responsibly for peace in the Middle East, to also invest its political capital in trying to help seek an accommodation on Kashmir," he said.
> 
> "Such an accommodation would not only be just for the people of Kashmir but would be critical for peace in the region," he said, warning that "terrorism... has fueled and thrived on blatant examples of social and political injustice."
> 
> President Barack Obama's administration is seeking a broader relationship with India but also friendlier ties with Pakistan, a key battleground in the fight against Islamic extremism.
> 
> India considers Kashmir a domestic issue and rejects any foreign involvement. The Obama administration has steered clear of Kashmir after early statements triggered a backlash in India.
> 
> Kashmir, a Himalayan territory with a Muslim majority but a sizeable Hindu minority, has been disputed between India and Pakistan since independence and triggered two full-fledged wars between them.
> 
> An insurgency erupted on the Indian side in 1989 but had subsided in recent years. Indian authorities, along with some outside experts, say that Pakistan actively supported Islamic guerrillas who sneaked across the frontier.
> 
> *But in recent weeks, waves of protesters have turned to the streets to rally against Indian rule in Kashmir. Security forces have shot dead more than 100 demonstrators.
> 
> "At times it's easy for the Indians to look toward Pakistan and blame Pakistan for everything that's going wrong in Indian-occupied Kashmir," Qureshi said.
> 
> But he said "no one any longer can seriously believe this."
> 
> "Can Pakistan orchestrate thousands of people? Can Pakistan plan, sitting in Islamabad, a shutdown all over Kashmir?" he said*



*Bro U.S is playing its role in sorting out the Kashmir issue once and for all.This is the opportune time for us to settle it according to the whims of kashmiris, if failed,this issue will remain unsettled until doomsday..Also,solving kashmir issue is in favor of all of us(pakistan,india and Us) thus sincere efforts gonna start for its resolution*

*Qureshi and Krishna likely to meet in NY*​
By Baqir Sajjad Syed 
Wednesday, 22 Sep, 2010


ISLAMABAD: The frosty Indo-Pakistan ties may experience a thaw in the cool autumn of New York. 

Nine weeks after their talks for rebuilding trust hit a wall, the foreign ministers of the two countries are likely to meet next week on the sidelines of the ongoing United Nations General Assembly session. 

The offer for renewing contacts has come from India whose delegation led by External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna was accused of scuttling the July 15 foreign ministers&#8217; meeting in Islamabad. 

Indian High Commissioner Sharat Sabharwal conveyed the offer at a recent meeting with Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir. 

Diplomatic sources said the government was considering the Indian proposal and a decision was expected in a couple of days. 

Positive vibes from Delhi have encouraged the foreign policy managers who appear optimistic about the likelihood of the meeting. 

&#8220;There is a very strong possibility of a meeting of the foreign ministers in New York,&#8221; an official said. 

A diplomat told this correspondent there was evidence to suggest that India was moving towards accommodating Pakistan&#8217;s concerns. 

The optimism stems from Indian Foreign Secretary Nirupuma Rao&#8217;s statement at Harvard University in which she said: &#8220;India was determined to persevere in its dialogue with Pakistan to resolve outstanding issues so that our region will be stable and so that the rationale of economic development in an atmosphere of peace, for all of South Asia, remains our steadfast goal.&#8221; 

Earlier this month, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said his government had decided to engage with Pakistan. 

At the centre of this opportunity for resumption of contacts is a $25 million Indian aid for flood-affected people. Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani sent five crates of mangoes to Mr Singh last month as a token of gratitude. 

Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi will be in New York till Sept 30th, while Mr Krishna is scheduled to return to Delhi on Sept 29. Therefore, the meeting will most likely take place before next Tuesday. 

The foreign ministers&#8217; talks in July ended in a deadlock because of Indian insistence on not discussing Jammu and Kashmir, Siachen and issues pertaining to peace and security, particularly the strategic restraint regime. 

The Indian side, sources say, wanted to keep talks on the three subjects open ended. The Indians reportedly told their Pakistani counterparts that these issues would be taken up at &#8216;appropriate time&#8217;. 

An official said Pakistan could agree to return to the talks if the Indians were willing to commit to a roadmap covering Jammu and Kashmir, Siachen and peace and security, in addition to issues on which both countries had agreed, like commerce and trade, culture, Sir Creek, terrorism and confidence-building measures on Kashmir. 

*Chances of a meeting have been brightened up by Ms Rao&#8217;s statement that India is ready to &#8220;discuss all the outstanding issues, including Jammu and Kashmir&#8221;.*

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## RollingStones

penumbra said:


> The first sentence pretty much sums your post up. We can say the same about you.



When members discuss they must separate the legal stand from what is happening on the ground. India has hold over entire J&K State on LEGAL grounds, as far my legal readings go based on all sorts of agreements signed between India and Pakistan. 
I cant comment on people's aspirations and all that because I dont get that part. There is no one in America trying to project any views on Kashmir. Even the Palestinians are more active. Kashmiris need to put up some picture exhibitions here on Indian atrocities if that's what it really is. I tell you that's a good way to get our sympathies.

Another way Kashmir could be popularized is by creating a mock referendum on the Internet and taking it around to people's houses in Kashmir valley and getting their votes and publishing it on FaceBook, let's say. There are so many ways to get this internationalized and get so much global support. "Stone Pelting" is definitely showing Kashmiris in bad color. They need to learn from Tibetans.

The best solution for Kashmir valley, after doing some research, is a HK or Macau SAR type solution. Complete autonomy with nominal Indian control. Then trade and commerce can be highly encouraged and people can get on with it. This is the way it is going, looks like it.


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## Omar1984

indianrabbit said:


> US will not interfere in Kashmir, as Kashmir is clearly become and issue of religious fanatism. No one will like to encourage fanatics, while stone pelting was going in favor of Kashmir, excessive stone pelting is going against. Since people than see them as violent people. We should also try to make world believe that people of Kashmir should be controlled otherwise it will
> become SWAT. That's all and no one will care what happens there, if some people because of their violent behavior cannot adjust then so be it.



Is this child a fanatic?







Indian police shot dead a Kashmiri child in a fire on thousands of people protesting against Indian rule in the Himalayan region.

India soldiers kill Kashmiri child in protests [ WORLD BULLETIN- TURKEY NEWS, WORLD NEWS ]

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## TechLahore

indianrabbit said:


> US will not interfere in Kashmir, as Kashmir is clearly become and issue of religious fanatism.



Please don't lie. The Kashmir issue has been alive since 1947 and has nothing to do with fanaticism. It is about people having the right to self-determination and about following the principles by which the partition of India was carried out.

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## Zeluvaa

Pk_Thunder said:


> Bro U.S is playing its role in sorting out the Kashmir issue once and for all.This is the opportune time for us to settle it according to the whims of kashmiris, if failed,this issue will remain unsettled until doomsday..*Also,solving kashmir issue is in favor of all of us(pakistan,india and US*) thus sincere efforts gonna start for its resolution



May not be in favour of US though. After all if Kashmir issue is solved, India and Pakistan can have peaceful times and border, which means no arms race. If this happens, there won't be an arms race between the two nations and import of arms may reduce, something which won't sit well with US. 



siegecrossbow said:


> Why is Sarkozy laughing in the background?



Probably thinking, 'What a moron Obama is  '

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## gubbi

TechLahore said:


> Please don't lie. The Kashmir issue has been alive since 1947 and has nothing to do with fanaticism.


The green flags being waved at every rally, driving out pundits form the valley and targeting minorities speaks otherwise.


> It is about people having the right to self-determination and about following the principles by which the partition of India was carried out.


Differing principles. A nation born on the basis of religion vs a nation carved remaining secular.
Anyway, Kashmir was free, so to speak, before the Mughals. After that it was always a part of India, again except for a very short period of 73 days in 1947, before being acceded to India again. So why do "they" - the Kashmiris, demand special privileges?

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## RollingStones

Omar1984 said:


> Is this child a fanatic?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian police shot dead a Kashmiri child in a fire on thousands of people protesting against Indian rule in the Himalayan region.
> 
> India soldiers kill Kashmiri child in protests [ WORLD BULLETIN- TURKEY NEWS, WORLD NEWS ]



It is ridiculous that people keep on portraying that they have active US support when they dont. America has zero policy on Kashmir. Most of us dont know what Kashmir is and what can be done about it. Get it popularized here first before claiming our support. No point being delusional about the state of affairs. Everyone knows about Tibetan independence movement and no one knows about Kashmir movement. Organize and show these images to American folks and then you'll be getting somewhere, instead of pushing your agenda on an Internet forum.

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## TechLahore

The Kashmir issue will not be resolved by opening threads referencing questionable articles from questionable blogs. The entire premise of this thread is ludicrous. At the time of partition the population of the entire *state* of Kashmir which included Laddakh, Jammu etc. was majority muslim. The accession was illegally accomplished not just for the Kashmir valley, but for the entire state. This geographical reorganization in the mind of the blogger is bunkum. 

Also, what do you think will happen with this thread? Multiple choice:

a) This will degenerate into a full-on India vs. Pakistan battle with all the usual ugliness.
b) This will degenerate into a full-on India vs. Pakistan battle with all the usual ugliness.
c) This will degenerate into a full-on India vs. Pakistan battle with all the usual ugliness.

No extra credit for guessing right.

Each one of our Indian friends knows and understands that on the issue of Kashmir there is complete unity within Pakistan. Why start this nonsense here other than if you just enjoy threads full of flames?


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## TechLahore

RollingStones said:


> The best solution for Kashmir valley, after doing some research, is a HK or Macau SAR type solution. Complete autonomy with nominal Indian control. Then trade and commerce can be highly encouraged and people can get on with it. This is the way it is going, looks like it.



Agree with the above, with one exception. "nominal Indian control" needs to read, "nominal joint control ". And then you can add, "with complete demilitarization"


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## Hulk

TechLahore said:


> Please don't lie. The Kashmir issue has been alive since 1947 and has nothing to do with fanaticism. It is about people having the right to self-determination and about following the principles by which the partition of India was carried out.



It's not an issue since 1947. Also why did Pakistan invaded instead of asking the right of self determination. The part you have with you, have you asked them if they want to live?

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## Hulk

Omar1984 said:


> Is this child a fanatic?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian police shot dead a Kashmiri child in a fire on thousands of people protesting against Indian rule in the Himalayan region.
> 
> India soldiers kill Kashmiri child in protests [ WORLD BULLETIN- TURKEY NEWS, WORLD NEWS ]



What u r doing is called twisting of facts. In violent situation collateral deaths happen. Those who take their kids to such protest are more responsible. The security force always try to avoid such casualties so not their fault. Tell me one single incidence where there was normal situation and something like this happened. Why nothing happened before 1989? If we were bad why something like this was abscent before? Simple there was no militancy.

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## Pk_Thunder

Zeluvaa said:


> May not be in favour of US though. After all if Kashmir issue is solved, India and Pakistan can have peaceful times and border, which means no arms race. If this happens, there won't be an arms race between the two nations and import of arms may reduce, something which won't sit well with US.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably thinking, 'What a moron Obama is  '



For winning the WOT,its imperative for US to make our eastern border peaceful so that our armed forces fully concentrate on eastern side.And US has been busy in taking the two sides(pakistan and india)into confidence for the resolution of kashmir issue as she was aware of the fact that WOT couldn't be won unless the core concerns of our forces are addressed towards eastern side..India on the other hand kept on denying the involvement of third party in bilateral talks over Kashmir issue but we all know the reality,However lets not indulge ourselves into off topic discussion rather pray for a peaceful settlement of Kashmir which remained a bone of contention between the two sides.

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## Pk_Thunder

indianrabbit said:


> It's not an issue since 1947. Also why did Pakistan invaded instead of asking the right of self determination. The part you have with you, have you asked them if they want to live?



Have you ever heard or witness any procession in azad kashmir against pakistan untill now?FYI they have their own elected assembly and prime minister...The main problem lies on your side of kashmir!....And a peaceful south asia will remain a dream unless its settled


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## Hulk

Pk_Thunder said:


> Have you ever heard or witness any procession in azad kashmir against pakistan untill now?FYI they have their own elected assembly and prime minister...The main problem lies on your side of kashmir!....And a peaceful south asia will remain a dream unless its not settled



If there is no protest does not make it legal.

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## TOPGUN

I just hope there is way out for the people of kashmir and there is peace between Pakistan and India all the haters can say what they want but we must all stop this bloodshed its enough now.

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## SaifullahK

Omar1984 said:


> Is this child a fanatic?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian police shot dead a Kashmiri child in a fire on thousands of people protesting against Indian rule in the Himalayan region.
> 
> India soldiers kill Kashmiri child in protests [ WORLD BULLETIN- TURKEY NEWS, WORLD NEWS ]



That is how barbaric Bhartis punish peaceful innocent protestors -


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## brahmastra

siegecrossbow said:


> Why is Sarkozy laughing in the background?



He is looking at Obama and thinking "Nautanki kar raha hain Chutiya!"

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## brahmastra

Pk_Thunder said:


> Have you ever heard or witness any procession in azad kashmir against pakistan untill now?*FYI they have their own elected assembly and prime minister*...The main problem lies on your side of kashmir!....And a peaceful south asia will remain a dream unless its settled



Then why are you showing it as a part of your country in your map!

on topic: India will never allow any country to interfere in Kashmir.

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## TOPGUN

brahmastra said:


> Then why are you showing it as a part of your country in your map!
> 
> on topic: India will never allow any country to interfere in Kashmir.



Azad Kashmi is adm by Pakistan as your jummu & kashmir is adm by india so what you trying to say here? don't start tensions here. My friend don't let the door hit your head on the way out in reailty both nations show the whole of kashmir as there own so please before saying dumb remarks think about it twice it might help.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Accept Kashmir a dispute, Gilani advised Indian delegation ​*
TopNews 
Written by KMS 
Tuesday, 21 September 2010 23:25 






Srinagar, September 21, 2010: The Chairman of All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) Syed Ali Gilani has said that Kashmir is case of illegal occupation and since 1947 over six hundred thousand Kashmiris have laid down their lives for freedom of Jammu and Kashmir from India.

Syed Ali Gilani, while talking to an All-Party delegation of Indian Parliament, which called on him at his Hyderpora residence, said that even the first Prime Minister of India, Jawaharlal Nehru had promised the Kashmiris to give them the right to self-determination. 


He told the delegation that India took the Kashmir dispute to the United Nations but failed to fulfill its promise of giving Kashmiris their right to choose their future themselves, adding that Kashmiris would not surrender before the blind might of Indian government. Like the occupation of India by British was illegitimate, in the same way Indian occupation of Kashmir is illegitimate. Kashmiris would perish but will not submit to India. You should prepare the government of India, people of India and BJP for this reality, Syed Ali Gilani told the delegation.

The delegation comprised Sitaram Yechury, Asaduddin Owaisi, T.R. Baalu, Rattan Singh Ajnala and Namanageshwar Rao.

Syed Ali Gilani said that Indian forces are responsible for killings, disappearances, **** and arson in Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK). He deplored that over 100 people had been murdered in the past three months.


The Chairman of APHC also handed over his five-point formula, which says that India should accept Kashmir a disputed territory, agree for demilitarisation, release illegally detained Kashmiri Hurriyat leaders and activists, try Indian forces personnels, responsible for killings and revoke draconian law, Armed Forces Special Powers Act.

Later, talking to mediamen, Syed Ali Gilani termed the visit of the All-Party delegates to his house as cosmetic unless they highlighted the plight of Kashmiris before New Delhi.

The Jamaat-e-Islami of OSJK, while describing the visit of Indian All-Party delegation to Srinagar as meaningless, has said that Kashmiris should be given right to decide their political future in a free atmosphere. The spokesman of Jamaat-e-Islami in a statement issued in Srinagar said that all the pro-India parties and their leaders were already well aware of the ground situation in the occupied territory but were turning a blind eye to it.

He said that besides committing gross human rights violations, India had also imposed ban on freedom of local press so that the world could not know about the real situation in OSJK. The spokesman said that giving right of self-determination to Kashmiris was a pre-requisite for maintaining peace in Jammu and Kashmir, in particular, and, South Asia, in general.


In the meanwhile, A protest demonstration was held in front of the UN office in Geneva to attract the world attention especially the United Nations towards the stepped up Indian state terrorism in OSJK. Heads of the Kashmir Centres in Brussels and London, Barrister Abdul Majeed Tramboo and Professor Nazir Ahmad Shawl, led the demonstration. A large number of people including the Sikh and Christian community participated in the protest demonstration.

On the occasion, the demonstrators raised high-pitched slogans like Wake up UN and Stop Indian barbarism in Kashmir. The participants had also banners and placards inscribed with slogans in favour of freedom and against Indian state terrorism.

The protesters also projected the names and posters of Kashmiri children martyred by Indian troops in Jammu and Kashmir. The participants of the protest appealed to the United Nations to play its due role in granting birthright to self-determination to Kashmiris and help resolve the Kashmir dispute in accordance with Kashmiris aspirations.

Accept Kashmir a dispute, Gilani advised Indian delegation

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## brahmastra

Again 'MasktheTruth'. opppsss... MarkTheTruth....


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## hecj

india dont accept any of his demands like removal of afspa,disputed territory etc,whether he accepts it or not.if he thinks that world will come to him,that is his illusion

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## ps80

S_O_C_O_M, very soon you are going to topple people like Fatman, Sri Lankan from the 'top thread starters' list....carry on


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## Jackdaws

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Sir, i'm afraid I'm going to have to see some evidence



Read text of Shimla agreement. Then explain how a Pakistani Army regular like Karnal Sher Khan was awarded the Nishaan-e-Haidar.

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## S_O_C_O_M

Kashmiris are a different race than indians. I don't know why indians want to be so much like kashmiris that they want them to be apart of their country. Infeority complex? indians should get the hint and let the Kashmiris be.


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## ares

And India has responded to Mr Geelani request.

*Pak has no locus standi on J&K: India*

Posted: Wed Sep 22 2010, 00:49 hrs
Asserting that Islamabad had &#8220;no locus standi on what is purely an internal affair&#8221;, India on Tuesday rejected the resolutions on Jammu and Kashmir passed by Pakistan&#8217;s Parliament.

&#8220;We have seen reports of resolutions on Jammu and Kashmir that have been passed in the National Assembly and the Senate of Pakistan. We reject these resolutions. They have no locus standi on what is purely an internal affair of India,&#8221; said Vishnu Prakash, official spokesperson of the Ministry of External Affairs.

Pakistan&#8217;s upper House, Senate, and the lower House, the National Assembly, had on Monday adopted a unanimous resolution, condemning Indian violence in &#8220;occupied Kashmir&#8221; and had asked the government to extend support to Kashmiris and impressed upon the United Nations to ensure its implementation. The resolution was moved by chairman of Pakistan&#8217;s special parliamentary committee on Kashmir Maulana Fazlur Rehman

Prakash, in a written statement, said, &#8220;Pakistan should tackle the issues of constitutional safeguards, democracy, extremism, terrorism and human rights violations in the part of Jammu & Kashmir under its illegal occupation.&#8221;

New Delhi also reminded Islamabad of not allowing its territory to be used for terrorism directed against India in any manner. &#8220;In the spirit of true rationality, India desires good neighbourly relations with Pakistan. We are committed to resolving all outstanding issues through dialogue. Crucially, Pakistan must fulfil its stated commitment of not allowing territory under its control to be used for terrorism directed against India in any manner,&#8221; added the MEA spokesman.

Maintaining Kashmir was an unresolved issue and not an internal issue of India, the Pakistan Parliament had said in the resolution, &#8220;Pakistan fully supports the struggle of Kashmiri people and assures Kashmir people that they are not alone in this strife. Whole Pakistani nation is with them and would continue its moral, diplomatic and political support.&#8221;

With the UN General Assembly in session, sources said such statements had the tendency of creating trust deficit, and it could come in the way of a possible India-Pakistan foreign ministers&#8217; meeting which was in the works as of now.

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## Ganguly

Forget about independence, autonomy will not be granted. It is applicable to any Indian state. If i start a protest tomorrow that i want autonomy in my state, will government grant it? Kashmiri&#8217;s can demand of more funds from government, better infrastructure, health, education but not independence. Any demand can be negotiated apart from independence. It is a democracy, anyone can demand anything, doesn&#8217;t mean it will be sanctioned. How countries can will survive if they entertain such absurd requests. US or no other country can push anything on Kashmir. It is and will be a part of India.

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## brahmastra

TOPGUN said:


> Azad Kashmi is adm by Pakistan as your jummu & kashmir is adm by india so what you trying to say here? don't start tensions here. My friend don't let the door hit your head on the way out *in reailty both nations show the whole of kashmir as there own *so please before saying dumb remarks think about it twice it might help.



That is what I'm saying. So, don't fool world that p0K got its own assembly and PM.

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## brahmastra

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *Kashmiris are a different race than indians.* I don't know why indians want to be so much like kashmiris that they want them to be apart of their country. Infeority complex? indians should get the hint and let the Kashmiris be.



Gujarati, Panjabi, Bengali, South Indian ,north Indian, North east Indian etc all are different race. India is not been made by some race or home of some particular race or religion. Don't give shitty logics.

BTW, the topic is about third party involvement in Kashmir problem(*Read Kashmir only NOT Jammu and Kashmir*). India never said we will allow third party as 'Dalaal'.

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## Jackdaws

Yea - the conditions in Pakistan-occ-Kashmir are deplorable to say the least.


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## brahmastra

> We have seen reports of resolutions on Jammu and Kashmir that have been passed in the National Assembly and the Senate of Pakistan. We reject these resolutions. They have no locus standi on what* is purely an internal affair of India,* said Vishnu Prakash, official spokesperson of the Ministry of External Affairs.



Good. Stand on your stance. Never fall in trap and say that it is disputed region.
BTW, they can't say it even they want to. Indian constitution doesn't permit it.

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## EjazR

*Sanjaya Baru: Kashmir endgame*

_*The path shown by Manmohan Singh and Pervez Musharraf is the only way forward*_

Never was the tension at the prime ministers house more palpable than that April evening in 2005. The news from Srinagar was most disheartening. Terrorists had attacked the tourist centre from which the new bus service to Muzaffarabad would leave the next day, flagged off by the prime minister. The building was in flames and fear had gripped the city.

Later in the evening, a high-level security briefing, with every relevant functionary from the home minister to national security advisor to chiefs of intelligence and security organisations present, informed the PM that while two terrorists had been killed, two more were at large in Srinagar. An attack on next days public meeting was feared. The PM was advised by all to postpone his visit and the event.

The meeting ended at 9 pm. Manmohan Singh remained seated, watching TV, with sound on mute, looking grim, sullen and angry. This was to be the first step in a journey of peace that he had personally crafted after weeks of internal consultation with several experts and a quite conversation with President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan. The bus service across the Line of Control (LoC) was a bridge to a Naya Kashmir.

The terrorists knew this and so were intent on sabotaging. How could he succumb? After several minutes of silence, he turned to me and said, I will go.

I went out and called in his personal secretary B V R Subrahmanyam. Tell the NSA and home minister I am going, he instructed. Next day when we arrived in Srinagar, Chief Minister Mufti Mohammed Sayeed said to me at the airport, I am glad he is here. I told him that it was his personal decision, against all security advice. Yes, I know, he said, people of Kashmir will appreciate that.

With that bus service in April 2005, Dr Singh launched a new phase in Indias effort to find a final solution to the problem of Jammu and Kashmir. The seeds were undoubtedly planted by his predecessor Atal Behari Vajpayees famous initiative of January 2004. However, it was the conversation in September 2004 in New York with President Musharraf that opened new pathways to peace.

The launch of the bus service on April 7, 2005 was a vital part of a new agenda for the final resolution of the Kashmir problem. President Musharraf was due in Delhi 10 days later. The April 6 terror attack was meant to derail a process. Mr Musharraf called the PM and praised him for the courage and determination he showed in going ahead with the bus launch.

The history of India and Pakistans attempt to resolve the Kashmir problem has often been a history of missed opportunities bedevilled by a trust and governance deficit and poor timing. This time, the two got it right. By not succumbing to that attack, Dr Singh was able to take the India-Pakistan dialogue on Kashmir to a new level, till it was aborted partly by events in Pakistan, with the political weakening of President Musharrafs position, and partly at home, with a coming together of hawks in the establishment and an assortment of myopic and self-seeking politicians.

The key to the successful progress of the India-Pakistan dialogue on Kashmir in 2004-2006 was the parallel dialogue at home that Dr Singh launched through his Round Table Conferences, involving all major political parties in the state. Along with this he also re-launched a dialogue with the Hurriyat.

When Hurriyat leaders came to meet him, his only appeal to them was that they should lay out their road map and he would then tell them what India can do and what it cannot and will not. It is a failure of the Hurriyat leadership that short of mouthing the empty slogan of azadi, they have not been able to define a formula that would resolve the situation.

For all the emotive appeal of the slogan of azadi, it is not a doable programme of action. Neither Pakistan nor a majority of the people of Jammu & Kashmir seeks the textbook version of azadi. They all seek a variant of it. And it is such a variant that Prime Minister Singh and President Musharraf had all but agreed upon. The old formulas of the 1950s have been long buried by all concerned, even if a fringe keeps resurrecting outdated buzz words like plebiscite.

The Manmohan-Musharraf formula is the only way forward. Dr Singh put it pithily when he said, Borders cannot be changed, but can be made irrelevant. That is what the bus service was all about. President Musharraf told a Pakistan TV channel in October 2006 that the understanding involved, Self-governance with a joint management system at the top for both sides of the LoC, and you make the LoC irrelevant.

Whatever the turn of events since then, any final solution cannot go against the logic of history and geopolitics. Nations are not made and remade by every generation. It is the failure of political leadership in India, in Pakistan and in Kashmir itself that has contributed to the current situation. Too many small men in big chairs, in Delhi, in Islamabad, in Srinagar.

The task at hand today is for the political leadership in Kashmir, cutting across party political lines, to restore normalcy in the state and calm anger on the streets. They must then come forward with a consensual road map for their future that is practical and realistic. Neither Delhi nor Islamabad can help Kashmir if it is not ready to help itself.

But when normalcy returns, the endgame will be played exactly the way Mr Musharraf and Dr Singh agreed to play it out. Everyone needs a reality check on that.


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## TechLahore

gubbi said:


> The green flags being waved at every rally, driving out pundits form the valley and targeting minorities speaks otherwise.



This comment exposes what is clearly a deeply held bias... since when have green flags been associated with fanaticism? The flag of the All India Muslim League was green. 

Following this logic, should we take symbols associated with hinduism as evidence of fanaticism? Or if someone wears a cross, is he a fanatic christian? 



> Differing principles. A nation born on the basis of religion vs a nation carved remaining secular.
> Anyway, Kashmir was free, so to speak, before the Mughals. After that it was always a part of India, again except for a very short period of 73 days in 1947, before being acceded to India again. So why do "they" - the Kashmiris, demand special privileges?



They don't demand *special *privileges. They simply ask for their fundamental rights. They simply ask that they be allowed to determine their fate. That was the principle of partition. Why else were hindu majority states made part of India? There were muslim rulers ruling such states who publicly expressed their desire to be part of Pakistan. But they were in stead invaded and colonised by India. And the principle was then flipped for Kashmir. Basically, the rule du jour was whatever suited India on a particular day. This is no way to conduct your affairs. That such mistreatment and unfair handling has led to a gaping wound which refuses to close even after the passage of 63 years should come as no surprise.

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## TechLahore

Ganguly said:


> Forget about independence, autonomy will not be granted. It is applicable to any Indian state. If i start a protest .



Kashmir is not like "any Indian state". Not even in your own constitution. It is also an internationally recognized disputed territory. Are you suggesting that every state in India meets this definition?

I understand you were just spewing rhetoric in your post, but keep that to yourself. It doesn't add any value in the discussion.


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## brahmastra

TechLahore said:


> They don't demand *special *privileges. They simply ask for their fundamental rights. They simply ask that they be allowed to determine their fate. That was the principle of partition. Why else were hindu majority states made part of India? There were muslim rulers ruling such states who publicly expressed their desire to be part of Pakistan. *But they were in stead invaded and colonised by India. And the principle was then flipped for Kashmir*. Basically, the rule du jour was whatever suited India on a particular day. This is no way to conduct your affairs. That such mistreatment and unfair handling has led to a gaping wound which refuses to close even after the passage of 63 years should come as no surprise.



If I'm not wrong then you are talking/comparing about invasion of Junagadh and Hydrabad with Kashmir. 
Check the history again, Hydrabad and Junagadh were invaded after you attack Kashmir.

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## bandit

TechLahore said:


> This comment exposes what is clearly a deeply held bias... since when have green flags been associated with fanaticism? The flag of the All India Muslim League was green.
> 
> Following this logic, should we take symbols associated with hinduism as evidence of fanaticism? Or if someone wears a cross, is he a fanatic christian?



The original logic was green flags+driving out hindus+minorities being targeted, these combined do point towards fanaticism; lying by omission?







> They don't demand *special *privileges. They simply ask for their fundamental rights..



They ask for freedom, are you prepared to give them that? I don't think so.



> They simply ask that they be allowed to determine their fate. That was the* principle of partition*. Why else were hindu majority states made part of India? There were muslim rulers ruling such states who publicly expressed their desire to be part of Pakistan. But they were in stead invaded and colonised by India. And the principle was then flipped for Kashmir. Basically, the rule du jour was whatever suited India on a particular day. This is no way to conduct your affairs. That such mistreatment and unfair handling has led to a gaping wound which refuses to close even after the passage of 63 years should come as no surprise



Principle of partition?? What are you talking about...majority rule applied in the contigous areas...not in the princely states dude...try to read up some more.

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## kingdurgaking

Omar1984 said:


> *Pakistan pleads for US intervention on Kashmir
> ​*
> NEW YORK  Pakistan on Tuesday urged the United States to pressure India over Kashmir, saying recent unrest showed that New Delhi and not Islamabad was to blame for trouble in the Himalayan territory.
> 
> On a visit to New York for a UN session on Pakistan's devastating floods, Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi insisted his government wanted peace with India but tore into its rule of Kashmir which he called "oppression."
> 
> *"The occupation cannot continue. The rights of the Kashmiri people cannot continue to be denied," Qureshi said at the Council on Foreign Relations, a think-tank.*
> 
> "We call upon the United States particularly, which is pressing so responsibly for peace in the Middle East, to also invest its political capital in trying to help seek an accommodation on Kashmir," he said.
> 
> "Such an accommodation would not only be just for the people of Kashmir but would be critical for peace in the region," he said, warning that "terrorism... has fueled and thrived on blatant examples of social and political injustice."
> 
> President Barack Obama's administration is seeking a broader relationship with India but also friendlier ties with Pakistan, a key battleground in the fight against Islamic extremism.
> 
> India considers Kashmir a domestic issue and rejects any foreign involvement. The Obama administration has steered clear of Kashmir after early statements triggered a backlash in India.
> 
> Kashmir, a Himalayan territory with a Muslim majority but a sizeable Hindu minority, has been disputed between India and Pakistan since independence and triggered two full-fledged wars between them.
> 
> An insurgency erupted on the Indian side in 1989 but had subsided in recent years. Indian authorities, along with some outside experts, say that Pakistan actively supported Islamic guerrillas who sneaked across the frontier.
> 
> *But in recent weeks, waves of protesters have turned to the streets to rally against Indian rule in Kashmir. Security forces have shot dead more than 100 demonstrators.
> 
> "At times it's easy for the Indians to look toward Pakistan and blame Pakistan for everything that's going wrong in Indian-occupied Kashmir," Qureshi said.
> 
> But he said "no one any longer can seriously believe this."
> 
> "Can Pakistan orchestrate thousands of people? Can Pakistan plan, sitting in Islamabad, a shutdown all over Kashmir?" he said*



Oke ... i have a simple question.. is Pakistan struggling for the Kashmir land or Kashmir people??...

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## kingdurgaking

RollingStones said:


> It is ridiculous that people keep on portraying that they have active US support when they dont. America has zero policy on Kashmir. Most of us dont know what Kashmir is and what can be done about it. Get it popularized here first before claiming our support. No point being delusional about the state of affairs. Everyone knows about Tibetan independence movement and no one knows about Kashmir movement. Organize and show these images to American folks and then you'll be getting somewhere, instead of pushing your agenda on an Internet forum.



I am agreeing with you 100%.. US will have zero interest on Kashmir.. Infact US will try to keep the issues boiling around the world so that they get good business... 

If countries has to grow then this is the only way out... If no issues then there wont be any growth.. i mean growth will reach saturation point

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## kingdurgaking

indianrabbit said:


> What u r doing is called twisting of facts. In violent situation collateral deaths happen. Those who take their kids to such protest are more responsible. The security force always try to avoid such casualties so not their fault. Tell me one single incidence where there was normal situation and something like this happened. Why nothing happened before 1989? If we were bad why something like this was abscent before? Simple there was no militancy.



You are right... Security forces dont go to every house and kill the people like in mass genocide which has happened in some parts of the world.. In fact kashmir should be seen as a war.... where a weaker party is trying to attack a stronger party.. so the result is seen every day.... Infact i pity them because the people still havent actually realized that violence is not a solution but peaceful demonstration like telagana will suffocate government .. as a matter of fact they are brain washed like talibans.. what a intelligent leader should have done is they should have ask for a separate state with there own people governing it and move towards the path of development...


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## kingdurgaking

Pk_Thunder said:


> Have you ever heard or witness any procession in azad kashmir against pakistan untill now?FYI they have their own elected assembly and prime minister...The main problem lies on your side of kashmir!....And a peaceful south asia will remain a dream unless its settled



If RAW brain wash people such incidents are bound to happen there also... World very well knows Pakistan has a special interest on Kashmir land ....

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## aristocrat

Over the years religious fanaticism has seeped into kashmiri struggle.One should acknowledge this fact first before moving on.Even today the call for 'azadi' is from kashmir,jammu and ladakh have no problem in being a part of india.
As Jaswant Singh said "If we ever want peace India will have to quit playing 'big boss' of the region and Pakistan will have to give up the notion of Islam being a separate country.A nation can exist without having a religious identity attached to it."


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## TechLahore

bandit said:


> The original logic was green flags+driving out hindus+minorities being targeted, these combined do point towards fanaticism; lying by omission?



Muslims are a minority in India and are being targeted by state machinery in Kashmir. Do you mean to suggest that the troops/machinery targeting these muslims in Kashmir are fanatics. If so, I understand your point.



> They ask for freedom, are you prepared to give them that? I don't think so.



Thank you for making up our mind for us. 

Pakistan's position on Kashmir has been to allow self determination. If Kashmiris were thrilled with the status quo you wouldn't have the situation there that you do now and have had for the past 63 years.



> Principle of partition?? What are you talking about...majority rule applied in the contigous areas...not in the princely states dude...try to read up some more.



In that case, please prepare to cede princely states ruled by muslim rulers.


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## bandit

TechLahore said:


> Muslims are a minority in India and are being targeted by state machinery in Kashmir. Do you mean to suggest that the troops/machinery targeting these muslims in Kashmir are fanatics. If so, I understand your point.



Muslims are being targeted for their religion in Kashmir? Thats a new one, people who come out on the streets to throw stones at the police get shot at. I don't think the police asks them if they are muslim before firing. The killings happen to occur only in the small region of the valley, thats where the fanaticism is.



> Thank you for making up our mind for us.
> 
> Pakistan's position on Kashmir has been to allow self determination. If Kashmiris were thrilled with the status quo you wouldn't have the situation there that you do now and have had for the past 63 years.



Now where did I make the decision for you, its your _Government _who has the stand of no Independence for Kashmir, and thats what I would listen to.

Allow self-determination only to the extent they choose Pakistan, some high horse you are onto.



> In that case, please prepare to cede princely states ruled by muslim rulers.



You mentioned the principle of partition, you stand by it, I dont need to prepare for anything.

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## humanfirst

TechLahore said:


> Pakistan's position on Kashmir has been to allow self determination. If Kashmiris were thrilled with the status quo you wouldn't have the situation there that you do now and have had for the past 63 years.


What is Pakistanis position on kashmiri self determination?Just two options either to remain with india or join Pakistan?Or three options in which Kashmirs have a choice to have an independent nation apart from earlier mentioned two?
Also why didnt pakistan wait for the kashmiris right to self determination when it started invading and annexing kashmir in 1947?





TechLahore said:


> In that case, please prepare to cede princely states ruled by muslim rulers.


Wasnt pakistan formed on the theory that hindus and muslims cannot coexist?It would be difficult for pakistanis to co-exist with a majority hindu population in those areas ruled by muslim invaders.


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## kingdurgaking

TechLahore said:


> Muslims are a minority in India and are being targeted by state machinery in Kashmir. Do you mean to suggest that the troops/machinery targeting these muslims in Kashmir are fanatics. If so, I understand your point.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for making up our mind for us.
> 
> Pakistan's position on Kashmir has been to allow self determination. If Kashmiris were thrilled with the status quo you wouldn't have the situation there that you do now and have had for the past 63 years.
> 
> 
> 
> In that case, please prepare to cede princely states ruled by muslim rulers.




Sir jee i can see you have very very true concern for our Kashmiri people.. why cant you suggest to GOP to do like this...

1) Ask the people in Kashmir region who is revolting for freedom to cancel Indian citizenship and get pakistan citizenship..
2) Ask them to leave the land.. you can argue that it is there place why will they leave and come.. true i accept that.. so for this you can send them abroad like UK, US or some developed countries... They can settle there with good life and they will send money to GOP and you can earn more foreign exchange... 

By this your cry for our people in Kashmir is solved.. what do you say?? it is a win-win situation for both of us

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## Ishan

Sad


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## muse

India learns how not to play US games

September 21, 2010
*Seeking Kashmir Peace, India Feels Anger of Residents*
By JIM YARDLEY

SRINAGAR, Kashmir  The Indian members of Parliament left their shoes on the floor beneath a wall covered in photographs of slain Kashmiris. The five men sat cross-legged on the floor of the headquarters of the Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front, staring into a throng of television cameras as they delivered a carefully scripted message of reconciliation. 

_We have come to get your counsel_, said Ram Vilas Paswan, a member of Parliament, turning to the leader of the Liberation Front, a former guerrilla fighter named Yasin Malik. _What is the way out? What is the way to stop the bloodshed?_ 

For more than 100 days, in which Indian security officers have killed more than 100 Kashmiri civilians, the Indian government has seemed paralyzed, or even indifferent, as this disputed Himalayan region has plunged into one of the gravest crises of its tortured history. 

Unable to quiet the unrest, or even fully understand it, Indian leaders this week sent the equivalent of a peace delegation to Kashmir. Members visited a hospital and met with politicians, business leaders and even separatists like Mr. Malik before returning to New Delhi on Tuesday night to confer with the prime minister. 

Unlike the rest of India, where Hinduism is the predominant religion, the majority of Kashmiris are Muslim. 

*India often views Kashmir through its rivalry with Pakistan, with both countries controlling portions of the region and each claiming its entirety. Yet Indian officials concede that this latest unrest is different, a domestic Kashmiri revolt against Indian rule, unlike past insurgencies sponsored by Pakistan*. 

If the delegations two-day visit proved anything, it was that the way out of the crisis would be very uncertain, complicated by historic distrust, a rising Kashmiri demand for political independence and seething anger within the younger generation toward the heavy security presence on the ground. 

Indeed, the delegation, led by Indias home minister and comprising members of Parliament from major political parties, got a firsthand look at the suffocating government curfew that has choked the entire region since the latest cycle of protests and police shootings broke out more than a week ago. When delegation members visited the hospital, they were jeered, according the news reports. 

The delegations procession of white Ambassador sedans passed along empty streets and shuttered shops, with officers posted every 50 yards with machine guns. If the delegation had come to reach out to Kashmir, it was extending its hand through barbed wire. 

I_t is humiliating_, said A. H. Punjabi, a vice president of Kashmirs chamber of commerce. On Monday morning, Mr. Punjabi traveled about 6 miles to testify before the delegation at a half-day hearing. Although the streets were empty, and Although he had a special curfew pass, he was stopped more than 20 times by officers during his trip, which took more than an hour. 

_I was telling them that I have to attend this delegation meeting,_ he added. But they wanted to know who I was, with which organization. 

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, after being briefed by the parliamentary delegation, is expected to announce some sort of package or policy response on Kashmir. But with many Kashmiris calling for a bold initiative addressing their aspirations to self-determination, it is unclear how far Mr. Singh can go. 

Many Kashmiri leaders are calling for the *repeal or easing of special laws that protect soldiers and security officers and grant near immunity in shootings  laws that many people say have led to human rights violations. But military leaders are resisting changes, and hard-liners in the political opposition warn that weakening the laws would amount to a political victory for Pakistan.* 

The immediate political question is the fate of the government in the state of Jammu and Kashmir, which is led by Omar Abdullah of the National Conference Party. Elected in December 2008, Mr. Abdullah, the scion of a Kashmiri political dynasty, presented himself as a fresh, honest face, one who would bring jobs and push New Delhi to make concessions on issues like political autonomy and scaling back the security presence. He became a political ally of Rahul Gandhi, the heir to the governing Indian National Congress party, and even appeared on the cover of the Indian edition of GQ magazine. 

But Mr. Abdullahs popularity has cratered, and his critics say his inexperience and inattention allowed the crisis to spin out of control. His critics also equated his frequent absences  his wife and children live in New Delhi  to disregard. The situation is a major political problem for the Congress-led central government, which is allied with Mr. Abdullahs party and placed his father in the cabinet. 

_You had a moment of hope, and then after 18 months, the hope collapsed,_ said Amitabh Mattoo, an analyst with a specialty in Kashmiri politics. Initially, leaders in the central government made public declarations of support for Mr. Abdullah, but in recent days speculation has arisen that the state government may soon be replaced. 

_This guy was just not able to grasp that something was happening and it needed to be managed,_ said a senior official in the prime ministers office, speaking on the condition of anonymity. _How to deal with a street demonstration? That should not be micromanaged from Delhi._ 

The steadily rising death toll is the most lethal measurement of the governmental failure to quell the crisis. As of Tuesday, at least 107 people had been killed, often in confrontations between stone-throwing protesters and security officers returning lethal fire. 

In addition, local journalists say state officials blocked the distribution of newspapers and prohibited several local television channels from providing news coverage after they broadcast video of the funeral processions of protesters or of officers firing on crowds. One person said electricity and water were shut off in his entire neighborhood because some people had thrown stones. 

*Why would we trust them?* said one man who had slipped out Sunday evening, despite the curfew. *There is no reason to trust India. There is a huge trust deficit. The press is seized. The people are caged.* 

Mr. Malik, the separatist leader, discounts any suggestion that Kashmir is inflamed merely because of bad governance or mismanagement. After listening to the visiting parliamentary delegation on Monday night, Mr. Malik recited a long litany of broken promises from Indian leaders going back to the founding of the nation in 1947. *Ultimately, he argued, the only thing that will pacify Kashmiris is a political solution, involving Pakistan, to fulfill the regions desire for self-determination*. 

_Do not give them a sense of defeat_, he said. _Give them a sense of hope. Or you will push them to revolution_. 


Hari Kumar contributed reporting.

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## EjazR

*Kashmir Images :: Details*

JAMMU, SEPTEMBER 21-A delegation of Gujjar & Bakerwal Community under the leadership of Vice Chairman Civil Secretariat, Ch Bashir Naaz met the All Party Delegation Government of India at SKICC Srinagar and apprised them of the sufferings and hardships being faced by the community.
*They apprised the delegation that the Gujjar Bakerwal Community has always remained patriotic and loyal to the sovereignty of India and hoped that necessary measures shall be taken for bringing peace and normalcy in the troubled state. They also furnished a memorandum to the Chairman of the All Party Delegation for giving special package to the community for their development.*
The main demands projected by the community delegation included waiving off of loan provided to the community by various banks and SC/ST/OBC Development Corporations from 1990 till date which could not be repaid due to the present security turmoil and un-conducive situation in the state launching of special drive for recruitment of Gujjar & Bakerwal unemployed youth in army and other para military forces and J&K police formulation of Gujjar Regiment in army which is demanded right from the time of late Rajiv Gandhi grant of political reservation to the Gujjar & Bakerwal Community. Opening of Army goodwill schools in Gujjar/Bakerwal dominated areas so that these educationally backward people can be brought of par with others in the society.
The delegation was comprised of Inam Choudhary of Rajouri, Ch Salam Din of Kupwara, Ch Din Mohammad Cheeta of Kupwara, Ch Hussain Bajar of Kalakote, Ch Abdul Aziz Poswal of Shopian, Ch Nazir Sheikh of Shopian, Ch Nazir Dedar of Anantnag, Ch Mohammad Yasin Poswal of Pulwarma and Ch Mohammad Sadiq of Ganderbal.

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## EjazR

Well I think even visiting openly sepratist leaders sends out an important message.

Is it concievable that an all party delagation from a Pakistani NA would for example go meet Bugti?

Now what remains to be seen is what actions will the APD suggest and how they will be implmented. The contours of the end solution are known, its just the political will by GoI, GoP and the Kashmiri leadership to implement it.


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## gubbi

IMHO, AFSPA is a legitimate grievance. Its a decades old law, unchanged through the years and the parliament keeps automatically renewing it whenever its time for renewal, without considering the facts of the day.
When we can repeal/modify draconian laws like TADA, POTA, etc, why then AFSPA cannot be modified according to the times.

That being said, AFSPA is the only instrument by which our civilian govt can order the Army into civilian territories. However this act can be enforced only when the said territory is declared as "Disturbed area" - by some Act (cannot remember which). To be declared a disturbed area, present ground conditions must be taken into account, which does not happen in reality. Example - the existence of AFSPA in North-East where militancy is at an all time low - practically non-existent.

Present circumstances in Kashmir (civilian unrest not withstanding) should be taken into consideration to renew AFSPA or maybe even dilute/modify it to suit the present times.


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## somebozo

Kashmiris jeer Indian lawmakers

By AIJAZ HUSSAIN | AP

Published: Sep 21, 2010 23:52 Updated: Sep 21, 2010 23:52

SRINAGAR: Protesters jeered a delegation of Indian lawmakers who made a hasty exit from a hospital in Indian Kashmir on Tuesday after trying to visit patients wounded in a crackdown on civil unrest in the disputed region.

The lawmakers were part of a group of 40 politicians from all major Indian parties visiting the region to find ways to address long-standing demands for self-rule or a merger with Pakistan.

The crowd met the politicians at the government-run hospital in Srinagar with chants of Go India, go back and We want freedom before police used batons to clear the area. Police detained at least two protesters, according to a police officer. The lawmakers were able to visit two patients before leaving.

Fearing more protests, authorities canceled the delegations visit to two other hospitals, the officer said.

Kashmir has been rocked by widespread protests since June, with at least 106 people killed in clashes with security forces  mostly teenage boys and young men. Human rights group Amnesty International has urged Indian authorities to investigate the killings and order government forces to stop the use of lethal force against demonstrators.

Kashmiri separatist leaders met some of the visiting lawmakers on Monday, but they dismissed the two-day visit as grandstanding by the Indian government.

A group of local residents assembled by local politicians met Home Minister P. Chidambaram and some lawmakers in the town of Tangmarg, the scene of a massive protest last week in which security forces shot and killed at least six people.

A young man asked Chidambaram why security forces were using brutal force against unarmed protesters if they considered the region to be part of India. Chidambaram didnt answer the question.

Despite a strong military presence in the area and an ongoing curfew, a group of protesters gathered on a highway outside the town and held up posters with anti-India slogans.

Other lawmakers were able to meet with local Kashmiris during a visit to a revered shrine in the region.

We plainly told them to stop atrocities in Kashmir and we want freedom from India, said Ghulam Rasool, a local who spoke with the delegation.

On Monday, five members of the delegation met with Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Muhammad Yasin Malik and Syed Ali Shah Geelani, all key separatist leaders, in the presence of journalists.

Geelani said talks with India could only be held if it accepts that Kashmir is an international dispute, releases all political prisoners and starts the withdrawal of hundreds of thousands of troops from the region.

The lawmakers said they would formally convey Geelanis proposal to the federal government.

Farooq and Malik proposed setting up committees comprising leaders from both India and Pakistan as a way forward in resolving the decades-old Kashmir dispute. Kashmir is divided between the neighboring countries and is claimed by both.

Indias did not immediately respond to the proposal.

Authorities relaxed a round-the-clock curfew for four hours in parts of Srinagar on Tuesday.

Thousands of people rushed to neighborhood shops to stock up on food and other items. However, stores in the main business districts remained closed and there was no public transport.


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## somebozo

Why should Kashmirs who maintained a separate identity through our imperial Indian to colonial India should now accept hegemony of total alien state over them under the false idea of Indian nation?


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## Sprint

This so called Kashimiri movement is just the *second last nail* in the coffin of so called liberate Kashmir movement. 
If we revisit history, during operation Gibraltar (1965) local kashmiri's sided with Indian army and were protected by the same army against so called intruders. There was peace and harmony in the valley at that time.

Next pakistani army played the game by arming locals against Indian army and the Indian army matched one gun by ten and the so called liberate kashmir movement died with this lethal blow. Peace restored.

Now the so called new wave of liberation that is so called peaceful (just to remind some ignorants that there is a concept of *stoning to death* for some kind of sin, so how come stoning (that too stone shower) at security forces is not crime if it can cause death in some case) would be sent to grave by the same forces (only this time it would be police and para military). Peace galore...

So that is why I say this uprising is the second last nail in the coffin; the last nail in the coffin is still to come and that would be non-violent peace protests leading to talks sitting across the table. At least to this fact my pakistani friends would agree that India may not have many things but we definitely have outclassed lot of people at lot of times in talks and got things done our way.

So great going Kashmiri's you are indeed very close to peace so have more and more of your kin rest in peace.

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## amigo

for pakistanis & our brainwashed kashmiris just one msg

*" DAY DREAMING IS NOT A CRIME"*


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## Joe Shearer

somebozo said:


> Why should Kashmirs who maintained a separate identity through our imperial Indian to colonial India should now accept hegemony of total alien state over them under the false idea of Indian nation?



I am totally mystified to read this.

Kashmiris maintained a separate identity throughout imperial India;
Kashmiris maintained a separate identity to colonial India;

What does it mean, please?


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## kingdurgaking

Gilani has to be ousted from india at the earliest.. he is implanting virus into the heads of innocent future Indian eyes... His citizenship has to be cancelled and he has to be made a POW...


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## Areesh

EjazR said:


> Well I think even visiting openly sepratist leaders sends out an important message.
> 
> *Is it concievable that an all party delagation from a Pakistani NA would for example go meet Bugti?
> *
> Now what remains to be seen is what actions will the APD suggest and how they will be implmented. The contours of the end solution are known, its just the political will by GoI, GoP and the Kashmiri leadership to implement it.



How can we meet him when he is hiding in Afghanistan due to his crimes. He should be in Pakistan so we can meet him. Come on yaar you are comparing two different things with each other. I thought you were a sane guy though.


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## Areesh

Jackdaws said:


> Yea - the conditions in Pakistan-occ-Kashmir are deplorable to say the least.



Yes conditions in AJK are deplorable. Too bad they don't have to live under curfew even for a single day out of whole year.

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## Omar1984

*Another Kashmiri succumbs to injuries, toll 109 
​*

SRINAGAR , (SANA): Amid deteriorating situation in the Indian occupied Kashmir, another Kashmiri Sajjad Ahmad Pandit 25, who was injured in police firing on September 13 at Shiekh Pora Budgam succumbed to his injuries here Wednesday.

With Sajads death, toll since June 11 has reached 109. Reports reached here said that the whole held valley presented a jail picture as authorities in Srinagar virtually placed the valley under curfew.


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## deckingraj

I always believe that one should not shoot the messenger however can you please explain why you choose to open yet another thread when there are plethora of similar threads already there???? 

Don't you think one can serve better by bringing all the information on one platform rather then opening 109 threads for 109 deaths????


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## Omar1984

*Kashmir is Pakistan's core issue: PM Gilani 
​*
ISLAMABAD  Condemning the human rights violations in Indian occupied Kashmir, Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani Tuesday said that Kashmir is Pakistans core issue and Mondays resolutions of both houses of the parliament have sensitised international community on these violations. 

*Speaking in the National Assembly Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani said that Kashmir issue is of prime importance for Pakistan as its resolution is key to peace and stability in the region. He said Pakistan has condemned human rights violations in held Kashmir and has taken the issue on international forums including the United Nations.*

Responding to the point raised by Chairman Parliamentary Kashmir Committee Maulana Fazl-ur-Rehman, he said it is for the first time that Chairman of Kashmir Committee is going to United Nation on this issue.

The Prime Minister also expressed concerns on reporting regarding stoppage of Maulana Fazl-ur-Rehman at airport and asked Ministries of Interior and Foreign Affairs to take notice of this report and inform the house.

He said that Fazl-ur-Rehman is honourable member of the house. He requested media to show responsibility in reporting on sensitive issues and said, We shall appreciate responsible reporting.

Earlier, Maulana Fazl-ur-Rehman expressed concern over the media reports that he has been held at Doha airport and said in fact he has applied with US Embassy for visa to participate in the UN General Assembly session as member of Pakistan delegation and reply in this regard is still awaited. 

Speaking on the point of order, Secretary Information Pakistan Peoples Party Fozia Wahab however alleged that Punjab government was extending all out support and facilities to defunct Jamata-ud-Dawa. 
Jamaat-ud-Dawa has been declared as defunct by the United Nations that followed a ban by the Government of Pakistan. But this outfit is getting active in Punjab and the concerned administration is facilitating and supporting it, Fozia added. She also sought a complete ban on its advertisements on media.


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## Jackdaws

Whoa! I don't think the Indian Govt. or the people saw that statement coming.


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## kashith

a nation suffering from floods,terrorism in its backyard is more concerned with what is happening in neighbouring country, calling it a core issue is diverting focus from the real core issue of development

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## bandit

Omar1984 said:


> *Kashmir is Pakistan's core issue: PM Gilani
> ​*
> ISLAMABAD &#8211; Condemning the human rights violations in Indian occupied Kashmir, Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani Tuesday said that Kashmir is Pakistan&#8217;s core issue and Monday&#8217;s resolutions of both houses of the parliament have sensitised international community on these violations.
> 
> *Speaking in the National Assembly Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani said that Kashmir issue is of prime importance for Pakistan as its resolution is key to peace and stability in the region. He said Pakistan has condemned human rights violations in held Kashmir and has taken the issue on international forums including the United Nations.*



Don't we already know that, the Pakistani obsession with Kashmir.

Lets see what it has done to Pakistan-
-Permanent enmity with India,
- lost half of country due to that,
- permanent arms race with a worsening economy, 
- still high on Kashmir with half the country under water.
- supported US on afghanistan in hope of using the assets against India in kashmir, results haven't been good so far.
- More focus on Kashmir than own people in frontier regions causing lesser control of government in own territory.
- Provinces calling for seccesion alleging not enough focus is on them, obviously as the PM said, its on Kashmir.
- Country a de-facto military state with the military hardset over Kashmir.

Phew, somebody new to kashmir would think either kashmir is made of gold or sitting on oil that people would want it so badly.

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## NWO

kashith said:


> a nation suffering from floods,terrorism in its backyard is more concerned with what is happening in neighbouring country, calling it a core issue is diverting focus from the real core issue of development


Because Pakistan also has a historical claim to Kashmir. So, we are minding our own business by looking into our own disputed territories. 

I know right from the beginning that you don't agree with this viewpoint, but you should surely be aware of it; you're already know why Pakistanis care about Kashmir. Your comment is only wanting to start a flame war here.


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## NWO

bandit said:


> Don't we already know that, the Pakistani obsession with Kashmir.
> 
> Lets see what it has done to Pakistan-
> -Permanent enmity with India,
> - lost half of country due to that,
> - permanent arms race with a worsening economy,
> - still high on Kashmir with half the country under water.
> - supported US on afghanistan in hope of using the assets against India in kashmir, results haven't been good so far.
> - More focus on Kashmir than own people in frontier regions causing lesser control of government in own territory.
> - Provinces calling for seccesion alleging not enough focus is on them, obviously as the PM said, its on Kashmir.
> 
> Phew, somebody new to kashmir would think either kashmir is made of gold or sitting on oil that people would want it so badly.


This works both ways. You could also say that if India just respected Pakistan's right, Pakistan wouldn't be in the state it is in right now.

Plus, Kashmir didn't contribute to all those things by itself. It's many other things as well.


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## bandit

NWO said:


> This works both ways. You could also say that if India just respected Pakistan's right, Pakistan wouldn't be in the state it is in right now.
> 
> Plus, Kashmir didn't contribute to all those things by itself. It's many other things as well.



What right are you talking about exactly? I don't know any legal right that Pakistan has on Kashmir.

Animosity over Kashmir is mostly what drives Pakistan to take irrational steps...just look around and answer if Kashmir is really the priority right now?


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## Leonidas

NWO said:


> This works both ways. You could also say that* if India just respected Pakistan's right, Pakistan wouldn't be in the state it is in right now.
> *
> Plus, Kashmir didn't contribute to all those things by itself. It's many other things as well.




Care to elaborate the bold part.


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## Jackdaws

In all fairness, Pakistan has never given up its claim of Kashmir. If a similar happenstance were to occur in Pak-Occ-Kashmir, India would be making the same noises.


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## NWO

bandit said:


> What right are you talking about exactly? I don't know *any legal right that Pakistan has on Kashmir.*
> 
> Animosity over Kashmir is mostly what drives Pakistan to take irrational steps...just look around and answer if Kashmir is really the priority right now?





Leonidas said:


> Care to elaborate the bold part.


Pakistan and India both have claims on Kashmir. In hindsight, 'claims' might have a been a better word then 'right'.


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## bandit

NWO said:


> Pakistan and *India *both have claims on Kashmir. In hindsight, 'claims' might have a been a better word then 'right'.



India has a legal right over Kashmir, recognized by both Pakistan and the UN, so essentially its Pakistan thats occupying Kashmir, India is well in its legal territory.


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## RollingStones

muse said:


> India learns how not to play US games
> 
> September 21, 2010
> *Seeking Kashmir Peace, India Feels Anger of Residents*
> By JIM YARDLEY
> 
> SRINAGAR, Kashmir  The Indian members of Parliament left their shoes on the floor beneath a wall covered in photographs of slain Kashmiris. The five men sat cross-legged on the floor of the headquarters of the Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front, staring into a throng of television cameras as they delivered a carefully scripted message of reconciliation.
> 
> _We have come to get your counsel_, said Ram Vilas Paswan, a member of Parliament, turning to the leader of the Liberation Front, a former guerrilla fighter named Yasin Malik. _What is the way out? What is the way to stop the bloodshed?_
> 
> For more than 100 days, in which Indian security officers have killed more than 100 Kashmiri civilians, the Indian government has seemed paralyzed, or even indifferent, as this disputed Himalayan region has plunged into one of the gravest crises of its tortured history.
> 
> Unable to quiet the unrest, or even fully understand it, Indian leaders this week sent the equivalent of a peace delegation to Kashmir. Members visited a hospital and met with politicians, business leaders and even separatists like Mr. Malik before returning to New Delhi on Tuesday night to confer with the prime minister.
> 
> Unlike the rest of India, where Hinduism is the predominant religion, the majority of Kashmiris are Muslim.
> 
> *India often views Kashmir through its rivalry with Pakistan, with both countries controlling portions of the region and each claiming its entirety. Yet Indian officials concede that this latest unrest is different, a domestic Kashmiri revolt against Indian rule, unlike past insurgencies sponsored by Pakistan*.
> 
> If the delegations two-day visit proved anything, it was that the way out of the crisis would be very uncertain, complicated by historic distrust, a rising Kashmiri demand for political independence and seething anger within the younger generation toward the heavy security presence on the ground.
> 
> Indeed, the delegation, led by Indias home minister and comprising members of Parliament from major political parties, got a firsthand look at the suffocating government curfew that has choked the entire region since the latest cycle of protests and police shootings broke out more than a week ago. When delegation members visited the hospital, they were jeered, according the news reports.
> 
> The delegations procession of white Ambassador sedans passed along empty streets and shuttered shops, with officers posted every 50 yards with machine guns. If the delegation had come to reach out to Kashmir, it was extending its hand through barbed wire.
> 
> I_t is humiliating_, said A. H. Punjabi, a vice president of Kashmirs chamber of commerce. On Monday morning, Mr. Punjabi traveled about 6 miles to testify before the delegation at a half-day hearing. Although the streets were empty, and Although he had a special curfew pass, he was stopped more than 20 times by officers during his trip, which took more than an hour.
> 
> _I was telling them that I have to attend this delegation meeting,_ he added. But they wanted to know who I was, with which organization.
> 
> Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, after being briefed by the parliamentary delegation, is expected to announce some sort of package or policy response on Kashmir. But with many Kashmiris calling for a bold initiative addressing their aspirations to self-determination, it is unclear how far Mr. Singh can go.
> 
> Many Kashmiri leaders are calling for the *repeal or easing of special laws that protect soldiers and security officers and grant near immunity in shootings  laws that many people say have led to human rights violations. But military leaders are resisting changes, and hard-liners in the political opposition warn that weakening the laws would amount to a political victory for Pakistan.*
> 
> The immediate political question is the fate of the government in the state of Jammu and Kashmir, which is led by Omar Abdullah of the National Conference Party. Elected in December 2008, Mr. Abdullah, the scion of a Kashmiri political dynasty, presented himself as a fresh, honest face, one who would bring jobs and push New Delhi to make concessions on issues like political autonomy and scaling back the security presence. He became a political ally of Rahul Gandhi, the heir to the governing Indian National Congress party, and even appeared on the cover of the Indian edition of GQ magazine.
> 
> But Mr. Abdullahs popularity has cratered, and his critics say his inexperience and inattention allowed the crisis to spin out of control. His critics also equated his frequent absences  his wife and children live in New Delhi  to disregard. The situation is a major political problem for the Congress-led central government, which is allied with Mr. Abdullahs party and placed his father in the cabinet.
> 
> _You had a moment of hope, and then after 18 months, the hope collapsed,_ said Amitabh Mattoo, an analyst with a specialty in Kashmiri politics. Initially, leaders in the central government made public declarations of support for Mr. Abdullah, but in recent days speculation has arisen that the state government may soon be replaced.
> 
> _This guy was just not able to grasp that something was happening and it needed to be managed,_ said a senior official in the prime ministers office, speaking on the condition of anonymity. _How to deal with a street demonstration? That should not be micromanaged from Delhi._
> 
> The steadily rising death toll is the most lethal measurement of the governmental failure to quell the crisis. As of Tuesday, at least 107 people had been killed, often in confrontations between stone-throwing protesters and security officers returning lethal fire.
> 
> In addition, local journalists say state officials blocked the distribution of newspapers and prohibited several local television channels from providing news coverage after they broadcast video of the funeral processions of protesters or of officers firing on crowds. One person said electricity and water were shut off in his entire neighborhood because some people had thrown stones.
> 
> *Why would we trust them?* said one man who had slipped out Sunday evening, despite the curfew. *There is no reason to trust India. There is a huge trust deficit. The press is seized. The people are caged.*
> 
> Mr. Malik, the separatist leader, discounts any suggestion that Kashmir is inflamed merely because of bad governance or mismanagement. After listening to the visiting parliamentary delegation on Monday night, Mr. Malik recited a long litany of broken promises from Indian leaders going back to the founding of the nation in 1947. *Ultimately, he argued, the only thing that will pacify Kashmiris is a political solution, involving Pakistan, to fulfill the regions desire for self-determination*.
> 
> _Do not give them a sense of defeat_, he said. _Give them a sense of hope. Or you will push them to revolution_.
> 
> 
> Hari Kumar contributed reporting.



India needs to meet with the intelligentsia of Kashmir and ask what they want. Ask clean and reputable leaders what they want. Then just go with it. I saw pictures of the Kashmir valley. It doesnt look like India. It looks like another backward, religiously extreme area. These guys are simply interested in religious control over the Kashmir valley. They dont talk about education or infrastructure. And they dont talk about how exactly they'll make kashmir viable after independence. Much like a rush to create Pakistan has resulted in an unviable state that is almost ungovernable now, Kashmir will devolve into anarchy if the administration is headed by religious/religion motivated people. At the very least, India should make sure that Kashmir Valley becomes a moderate Muslim state much like Malaysia or Egypt or Turkey and not extremist states like Afghanistan or Pakistan. Talks can be held on issues such as adoption of a secular constitution etc. in Kashmir. The first thing to do is to spin off Kashmir Valley as a separate entity from the State and put in place a government elected by their people there. Then monitor the situation for 15 years to see if the government gets influenced by religious extremists and tips over into a fundamental type entity or another ungoverned area posing grave threats to the world. After the 15 year period, India could hand over completely administration to the locals, sign some treaties for mutual respect (including a nuclear free zone, a a Japan style non-maintenance of defense forces, visa free travel etc.). If the federation concept of India is not working for these people (I for one dont see any "evil" designs by India as claimed by some pakistani members; I only see the Indian incompetence in governance, which has been the norm since its independence), then they should govern themselves, but not for religious reasons. Rejoinders should be there like any shia-sunni confrontation should mean that Kashmir Valley should revert to Indian administration. It is possible to give the people of kashmir a chance to govern themselves and prove their credentials to the world. Perhaps, India can do that.

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## NWO

bandit said:


> India has a legal right over Kashmir, recognized by both *Pakistan* and the UN, so essentially its Pakistan thats occupying Kashmir, India is well in its legal territory.


Pakistan demands the self-determination of Kashmir. Or am I somehow mistaken?


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## bandit

NWO said:


> Pakistan demands the self-determination of Kashmir. Or am I somehow mistaken?



Yeah demands self-determination, but only to the extent that Kashmir joins Pakistan, the govt gives no right to Kashmiris to be independent, thats your govt's stand.

Legally, theres no right or claim for Pakistan to be be occupying Kashmir. Pending the plebiscite, India has the right to Kashmir, thats what Pakistan and UN agreed to in '48. Pakistan pulls back first then the India conducts plebiscite under UN directions, remember its not a binding compulsion on India to conduct plebiscite, thats what the UN said.

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## Omar1984

*An eight-year-old Kashmiri went out to play. He came back home dead​*
Sameer Rah was beaten by Indian paramilitaries and flung into a poison ivy bush. The hopes of 2007 seem a world away.

A few days back I travelled to Batamaloo neighbourhood in Srinagar, the capital city of Indian-controlled Kashmir. Coils of barbed wire blocked the desolate roads; thousands of Indian soldiers patrolled the streets to enforce a strict military curfew. I couldn't reach the man I wanted to meet and finally managed to speak to him on the phone.

On 2 August Fayaz Rah, a 39-year-old fruit vendor from Batamaloo, had lunch with his wife and three children. Outside, Indian troops enforced the curfew. Yet the children would find a clearing or a courtyard to play cricket or imitate the adults and raise a slogan for Kashmir's independence from India. His youngest son, eight-year-old Sameer, took two rupees for pocket money from his father and stepped out to join his friends near his uncle's house.

*Young Sameer walked into a lane and impulsively shouted a few slogans for Kashmir's independence. He didn't realise a group of Indian paramilitaries was around. They caught the eight-year-old and beat him with bamboo sticks, some blows striking his head. They then threw the boy into a clump of poison ivy bushes, but a crowd gathered. The paramilitaries called a police truck, which drove Sameer to the nearby hospital. Meanwhile, police and paramilitaries teargassed the crowd.*

"Someone told me that a child has been killed," said Fayaz. He called a friend in the local police and mentioned that his son, who had left home wearing a yellow T-shirt, had not returned. His friend arrived at his door with an ambulance. "I saw my boy on the ventilator," Fayaz sighed. Doctors tried for hours to revive him, but couldn't save Sameer. *"There is no justice in Kashmir," Fayaz told me*. "Now the police claim my son died in a stampede."

It is getting harder to keep track of the deaths. In recent years, the hot guerrilla war over the region that began in 1990 first gave way to a cold peace, then, in the past two years, waves of mass protests. The summer of 2008 saw the biggest demonstrations for Kashmir's independence from India in two decades; they were put down by force, with 60 deaths and more than 500 injuries. In the past three months, Indian forces have killed 106 Kashmiri protesters and bystanders, mostly teenagers.

*The current fighting broke out as a protest against the killing of a 17-year-old student, Tufail Mattoo, in Srinagar. He was returning home from tuition and was hit by a teargas shell the police fired to disperse a crowd that had gathered to protest at another death. The situation has produced a Palestinian-style intifada in which young boys battle Indian troops with stones, and the soldiers shoot to kill.*

*India, meanwhile, continues to garrison half a million soldiers in Kashmir, nearly three times the number of American troops in Iraq at the peak of the occupation. India's half-century-old Armed Forces Special Powers Act, which was extended to Kashmir in 1990, gives troops the legal authority to shoot any person they suspect of being a threat, and guarantees immunity from prosecution. To bring a soldier before a civilian court requires the permission of India's home ministry; more than 400 such cases are still waiting for it.*

In the absence of justice, or any progress in the negotiations between India and Pakistan over the region's future, despair in Kashmir has grown. Walls all over the region are painted with slogans: *We Want Freedom! India, Go Back! Protesters are killed, and with every death more protests follow. The number of injured is believed to have risen to more than 1,000.*

Hospitals have been facing a serious shortage of medicines and the impossibility of conducting various medical tests that depend on private pharmacies and medical facilities. Many doctors aren't able to reach hospitals. Over the weekend Dr Bashir Chapoo, a senior eye surgeon, told me that the troops hadn't let him travel to his hospital in central Srinagar for more than a week. Seventeen of his patients had pellets stuck in their eyes. I called him yesterday. "I am still stuck at home. Most of my patients have left the hospital now. I have no idea where they are," Dr Chapoo said. Two had already lost their eyesight.

The military curfew continues with a few hours break once a week. The usual bustle of Kashmiri mornings has been replaced by an eerie silence; my street belongs to stray dogs and chirping birds. *The morning papers stopped publishing after the troops attacked the newsagents.* It is a world away from the hopeful spring of 2007, when back-channel talks between Indian and Pakistan diplomats  encouraged by Manmohan Singh, India's prime minister, and Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan's president  seemed to be close to bearing fruit. The solution they had agreed on would have resulted in a largely autonomous Kashmir with soft borders between the Indian- and Pakistani-controlled regions, and the gradual demilitarisation of Kashmir. But the talks lost steam when Musharraf lost power, and broke down after the 2008 attacks on Mumbai, orchestrated by Pakistani militants.

Mirwaiz Umar Farooq  head of the All Parties Hurriyat (Freedom) Conference, a coalition of separatist groups  championed the peace talks without any results. But now such moderates find themselves marginalised. *The influence of the separatist hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani has risen; he is now viewed as the most substantial powerbroker in the region. *The only lull in the recent protests occurred when he appealed to the protesters to stay home.

After several high-profile meetings last week, Singh's government rejected even moderate demands such as repealing the Armed Forces Special Powers Act  even though a committee set up by Singh four years ago recommended doing so. Scaling back troops from residential areas wasn't even discussed.


The Indian government did, however, despatch a delegation of parliamentarians to Kashmir for a fact-finding mission. The group arrived at Geelani's Srinagar home on Monday afternoon, accompanied by scores of television crews. *The Kashmiri leader enumerated his preconditions for peace talks: New Delhi should accept Kashmir as a dispute, free Kashmiri political prisoners, and withdraw its troops. Soldiers guilty of civilian killings must be punished, and their blanket protection withdrawn. India is not willing to concede any of these demands,* but the meeting provides at least a sliver of hope that the conversations so close to producing results three years ago might begin again.

What the Singh government does next will be its big test. Various analysts and political figures have suggested unconditional, result-oriented talks with the Kashmiris and a revival of the dialogue with Pakistan. It may well be the only way to save Kashmir  and India itself  from future calamities.


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## silent hill

and were is the US, it came to afghanistan to give freedom to afghans, it came to iraq, to provide freedom, ot came to indonesia to give freedom to east temorians, it gave freedom to kosovo, etc it came to veitnam to provide freedom, but no freedom for kashmiris??

only where they interests lye??


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## Luftwaffe

silent hill..why should we invite us?


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## RamGorur

RollingStones said:


> India needs to meet with the intelligentsia of Kashmir and ask what they want. Ask clean and reputable leaders what they want. Then just go with it. I saw pictures of the Kashmir valley. It doesnt look like India. It looks like another backward, religiously extreme area. These guys are simply interested in religious control over the Kashmir valley.


Just to bolster your argument, here is an interview of Asiya Andrabi.

_'Based on Islamic teachings, we are fighting against India. I am telling you that this is Islam, this is my religion. I don't believe in Kashmiriyat, I don't believe in nationalism. *I believe that there are just two nations&#8212;Muslims and non-Muslims. I am a Muslim; I am least bothered whether I will be called a Kashmiri. I'm Andrabi, I'm from the Syed dynasty. I'm not actually Kashmiri, I'm Arab, my ancestors had come from Arabia to Central Asia. I believe in Islamic nationalism.*

So as far as our ideology is concerned, Kashmir is not a part of India because united India was divided on the basis of religion. No one can deny this fact. *We want our future too to be solved on the basis of religion.*'_​
Such are the separatist intelligentsia. Such are the separatist leaders. They say Kashmiri movement is the movement of people*s*. And then they wave Islamic flag and drive out minorities.

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## Indian1

*First*: Nothing is happening unless India gives its nod

*Second*: US/international community is not fool to lend its support for the creation of another 'afghanistan' bordered by three big countries vying for influence and control over its territory.


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## Ganguly

Krishna slams Pakistan over Kashmir
Krishna slams Pakistan over Kashmir
NDTV Correspondent, Updated: September 23, 2010 08:30 IST 

New York: External Affairs Minister S M Krishna has strongly dismissed Pakistan's attempts to raise the issue of Kashmir at the United Nations. 

Pakistan on Tuesday urged the United States to pressure India over Kashmir, saying recent unrest showed that New Delhi and not Pakistan sponsored terror was to blame for violence in the state. 

Speaking exclusively to NDTV, S M Krishna says Pakistan has to end its illegal occupation of certain parts of J & K before interfering in India's internal issues.

Here is what Krishna told NDTV:


NDTV: At this international forum, Pakistan seems to be trying to internationalise the recent violence we have seen in Kashmir. The Pakistani Foreign Minister Qureshi, speaking in New York has asked the US to mediate. What is your response to this?

Krishna: Kashmir is an internal matter of India. We have taken certain actions in terms of assessing what needs to be done in Kashmir. As far as Pakistan is concerned, they are in illegal occupation of certain parts of J&K. I think that it is desirable that they vacate that first and then start advising India about how to go about doing things in Kashmir. An all-party delegation has just returned from Kashmir after having wide range of discussions, across the board, from all shades of opinion. The government of India is fully conscious about its responsibilities. There are institutional mechanisms and individual mechanisms, which will be put in place so that the genuine grievances of the people of Kashmir will be addressed. It happens in other parts of the country also. Whenever such strife is there we do the same mechanism so we will follow that.

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## Areesh

bandit said:


> Don't we already know that, the Pakistani obsession with Kashmir.
> 
> Lets see what it has done to Pakistan-
> -Permanent enmity with India,
> - lost half of country due to that,
> - permanent arms race with a worsening economy,
> - still high on Kashmir with half the country under water.
> - supported US on afghanistan in hope of using the assets against India in kashmir, results haven't been good so far.
> - More focus on Kashmir than own people in frontier regions causing lesser control of government in own territory.
> - Provinces calling for seccesion alleging not enough focus is on them, obviously as the PM said, its on Kashmir.
> - Country a de-facto military state with the military hardset over Kashmir.
> 
> Phew, somebody new to kashmir would think either kashmir is made of gold or sitting on oil that people would want it so badly.



Instead of all the above reasons i think one reason is enough, Kashmir doesn't belong to India and Pakistan has every reason to have concern for it. Now you make your theories but the fact doesn't change that Pakistan consider Kashmir to be disputed territory and would continue to support Kashmiri no matter how many times you repeat the rant of integral part.


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## Areesh

bandit said:


> Legally, theres no right or claim for Pakistan to be be occupying



Who says? Bharat? Not acceptable.



> Pending the plebiscite, India has the right to Kashmir, thats what Pakistan and UN agreed to in '48. Pakistan pulls back first then the India conducts plebiscite under UN directions, remember its not a binding compulsion on India to conduct plebiscite, thats what the UN said.



I think this is all BS. Until end the rant of integral part of India it doesn't matter whether Pakistan has control of AJK or not. Once you accept IOK as a a part of disputed territory you have the right to accuse us of "illegally" occupying AJK.


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## Ganguly

Let Pakistan concentrate on its core issue Kashmir. Let them forget all the existing issues within its own boundary. India is now way ahead of Pakistan in terms of development and growth. With prime focus on Kashmir, this gap will widen in future. Unfortunately, it seems people from Pakistan don't understand the core issue their country is facing. And politicians are exploiting common people sentiments, to divert from real issues.


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## Indian1

Areesh said:


> Instead of all the above reasons i think one reason is enough, Kashmir doesn't belong to India and Pakistan has every reason to have concern for it. Now you make your theories but the fact doesn't change that Pakistan consider Kashmir to be disputed territory and would continue to support Kashmiri no matter how many times you repeat the rant of integral part.



We don't have to rant it again and again. The silence of major international powers in itself proves that Kashmir is a dead horse at least when it comes to international issues.


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## brahmastra

> Kashmir is Pakistan's core issue: PM Gilani



Kehta bhi Deewana, Sunta bhi Deewana.

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## third eye

The core issue actually is water and greater access to /from China coupled with the option of applying pressure on India from the North


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## bandit

Areesh said:


> Instead of all the above reasons i think one reason is enough, Kashmir doesn't belong to India and Pakistan has every reason to have concern for it. *Now you make your theories *but the fact doesn't change that Pakistan consider Kashmir to be disputed territory and would continue to support Kashmiri no matter how many times you repeat the rant of integral part.



Oh those aren't my theories sweety, UN agreed if anybody has a legal stance on Kashmir its India. You got an issue, take it up with UN. Oh, btw Pakistan was at the table when these negotiations occured.


[


> Who says? Bharat? Not acceptable.



No. its the UN. Aren't you the cheerleaders for the UN resolutions, when the UN asked for full withdrawal of Pakistani forces but let the Indian forces remain, it was confirmation that Pakistan has no right on Kashmir.




> I think this is all BS. Until end the rant of integral part of India it doesn't matter whether Pakistan has control of AJK or not. Once you accept IOK as a a part of disputed territory you have the right to accuse us of "illegally" occupying AJK.



Well looking up to India to establish standards eh, why don't you make some of your own, and until then get off the high horse of "Illegal Indian Occupation".

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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Instead of all the above reasons i think one reason is enough, Kashmir doesn't belong to India and Pakistan has every reason to have concern for it. Now you make your theories but the fact doesn't change that Pakistan consider Kashmir to be disputed territory and would continue to support Kashmiri no matter how many times you repeat the rant of integral part.



Why do you consider Integral part comments as a rant.?


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## Areesh

bandit said:


> Oh those aren't my theories sweety, UN agreed if anybody has a legal stance on Kashmir its India. You got an issue, take it up with UN. Oh, btw Pakistan was at the table when these negotiations occured.



India doesn't even had the Geographical border with Kashmir let alone it's claim on Kashmir. The legality was abolished by India by it's occupation of Gordaspur to "create" geographical relation of IOK with India.



> No. its the UN. Aren't you the cheerleaders for the UN resolutions, when the UN asked for full withdrawal of Pakistani forces but let the Indian forces remain, it was confirmation that Pakistan has no right on Kashmir.



We couldn't let India occupy AJK and we had and have no trust in India. The accession by the raja was illegal in every sense of the word and once India do something "practical" for the occurrence of plebiscite we can't remove our forces from AJK. Even if their was any chance for the removal of forces from Kashmir than India itself made that chance negligible by claiming Kashmir to be it's territory. 



> Well looking up to India to establish standards eh, why don't you make some of your own, and until then get off the high horse of "Illegal Indian Occupation".



Sorry Buddy, standards go side by side with India. Accept IOK as a disputed territory than you have the legality to accuse Pakistan of "occupying" AJK.


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> Why do you consider Integral part comments as a rant.?



Cuz it is a rant.


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## InPhilTraitor

Pakistan: Kashmir is the core issue
India: no, it is part of a set of issues.

Let us agree to dis-agree. That is it. This argument will not go anywhere.

If Kashmir issue is some how magically settled the animosity between India and Pakistan will not end.

We will still be Kaffirs, Zaid Hamid will be the still popular with his Radio Pakistan in New Delhi thing..

let us not kid our self.. there is no point beating a dead horse ..


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## bandit

Areesh said:


> *India doesn't even had the Geographical border with Kashmir *let alone it's claim on Kashmir. The legality was abolished by India by it's occupation of Gordaspur to "create" geographical relation of IOK with India.



Buy a map, get an education and stop wasting my time.


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## Areesh

bandit said:


> Buy a map, get an education and stop wasting my time.



And we have the map and we have the history. And the best thing is we also have Kashmiris revolting against your illegitimate occupation.


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## TheInvisible

No use for these statements.

Kashmir will be one of 28 states of India for ever.

PERIOD.

If Pakistan wants the Indian part then they can take it only by force, in that case viceversa is also possible. The ball is in Pakistan's court.


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## bandit

Areesh said:


> And we have the map and we have the history. And the best thing is we also have Kashmiris revolting against your illegitimate occupation.



Try about getting the education part.

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## Areesh

bandit said:


> Try about getting the education part.



No I am better off with my ignorance than education of defending illegitimate occupation.


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## SpArK

*Pakistan calls for US help to settle Kashmir*

NEW YORK  Pakistan on Tuesday urged the United States to pressure India into settling the core issue of Kashmir between India and Pakistan amid a popular revolt in the disputed state by the oppressed people against Indian occupation.


The occupation cannot continue. The rights of the Kashmiri people cannot continue to be denied, Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi said at the Council on Foreign Relations, a think-tank.
His strong statement came on a day the UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon also broke his silence on the explosive situation, calling for an immediate end to violence in the Occupied Kashmir where Indian security forces have killed more than 100 freedom-seeking protestors.


Qureshi said the ongoing clashes showed that India and not Pakistan was to blame for the uprising Kashmir where army troops have been enforcing a 24-hour curfew.
On a visit to New York for a UN General Assembly session, the Foreign Minister reaffirmed his Governments desire of peace with India denounced New Delhis rule in Kashmir as oppression.
The Foreign Ministers sharp remarks came ahead of his expected meeting with Indian External Affairs Minister SM Krishna, who arrived in New York On Tuesday.

The international community must recognise that the people of Kashmir, in an entirely indigenous upsurge, are demanding their right to self-determination, Qureshi said while rejecting allegations that Pakistan was behind the revolt against New Delhis rule.
Stressing that the uprising in the Occupied Kashmir was indigenous, he said Pakistan has neither the means nor the capacity to mobilise the young and old to stage protest demonstrations and shut down towns and cities.

Although Qureshi covered a number of topics, he made the most detailed statement so far on the Kashmir dispute. He urged India to take a fresh look at the evolving situation in the territory and sit down with Pakistan in an effort to resolve the festering dispute. Dialogue is the only way forward ..We can do it.


Pakistan calls for US help to settle Kashmir | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## footmarks

Areesh said:


> India doesn't even had the Geographical border with Kashmir let alone it's claim on Kashmir. The legality was abolished by India by it's occupation of Gordaspur to "create" geographical relation of IOK with India.



Pakistan was also "created". It was never a country, let alone its claim on Kashmir. And we do accept the lagality of Pakistan as an independent country. Enough goodwill already done on our part, time for you to reciprocate now.


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## Kompromat

Americans would never do that , we will . Its in their extreme favor to keep us fighting and keep Lockheed martin , Boeing and others getting our arms contracts.

They know if the kashmir issue is resolved then Pakistan and India will become allies , our borders would be opened , there would be trade happening all over the place our people would be well off and Pakistan would help India to solve their issues with china and by having done that America as a sole super power wont be the only one . Eu wont be the only union , do you see my points benny?

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## Areesh

footmarks said:


> Pakistan was also "created". It was never a country, let alone its claim on Kashmir. And we do accept the lagality of Pakistan as an independent country. *Enough goodwill already done on our part, time for you to reciprocate now*.



We have also done our part of reciprocation by accepting India's occupation of Gurdaspur, Hyderabad and Junagadh.Can't do it for IOK. Sorry.


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## footmarks

Areesh said:


> We have also done our part of reciprocation by accepting India's occupation of Gurdaspur, Hyderabad and Junagadh.Can't do it for IOK. Sorry.



Kindly do it atleast for P..O..K. then. Declare it as an Independent country in UN, and we may follow.


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## InPhilTraitor

Black Blood said:


> Americans would never do that , we will . Its in their extreme favor to keep us fighting and keep Lockheed martin , Boeing and others getting our arms contracts.


In 1965 they are ones who played pivotal role, that two begging nations not fight with their aid money.


> They know if the kashmir issue is resolved then Pakistan and India will become allies , our borders would be opened , there would be trade happening all over the place our people would be well off and Pakistan would help India to solve their issues with china and by having done that America as a sole super power wont be the only one . Eu wont be the only union , do you see my points benny?


I have to completely disagree, even if Kashmir issue is magically resolved, I do not see Pakistan & India being friends. We are still Kaffirs, Cunning Brahmins, Opportunistic Banias, these stereotypes are institutionalized in Pakistan.. there are similar caricatures of Pakistanis that are played out India (even though not as bigoted).

The best Indian and Pakistan can hope is to be peaceful neighbors.

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## Areesh

footmarks said:


> Kindly do it atleast for P..O..K. then. Declare it as an Independent country in UN, and we may follow.



With our opponents ranting shamelessly that IOK is India's integral part, it might be not possible for us. You can force us by accepting that IOK is a disputed territory and amending your constitution which claims IOK to be state of India.


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## Marxist

NEW YORK: Stating that Jammu and Kashmir is an internal matter of India, *external affairs minister S M Krishna has asked Pakistan to end its illegal occupation of some parts of the state before advising New Delhi.*

"Kashmir is an internal matter of India," said Krishna, who is here on a 10-day visit to attend the annual UN General Assembly meeting.

Pointing out that Pakistan is in "illegal occupation of some parts of Jammu and Kashmir", Krishna said, "it is desirable that they vacate that and then start advising India as to how to go about doing things in Kashmir."

"We have taken certain actions in terms of assisting what needs to be done in Kashmir... An all party delegation has just gone back to Delhi and they have had wide ranging discussions across the board from all shades of opinion.

"So, Government of India is fully conscious of its responsibilities... institutional mechanism and individual mechanism will be put in place so that the genuine grievances of Kashmir and the people of Kashmir will be addressed squarely and directly," the external affairs minister told TV news channel.


India tells Pak to end its illegal occupation of J&K - The Times of India India tells Pak to end its illegal occupation of J&K - The Times of India

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## footmarks

Areesh said:


> With our opponents ranting shamelessly that IOK is India's integral part, it might be not possible for us. You can force us by accepting that IOK is a disputed territory and amending your constitution which claims IOK to be state of India.



Not IOK, Its the P..O..K. that we say is an integral part of India which you have forcibly occupied. there is no such thing like IOK, if there is any, it stands for "India's Own Kashmir", which is whole of J & K


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## Areesh

footmarks said:


> Not IOK, Its the P..O..K. that we say is an integral part of India which you have forcibly occupied. there is no such thing like IOK, if there is any, it stands for "India's Own Kashmir", which is whole of J & K



Yeah whatever.


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## Jackdaws

Areesh said:


> We have also done our part of reciprocation by accepting India's occupation of Gurdaspur, Hyderabad and Junagadh.Can't do it for IOK. Sorry.



Gurdaspur? LOL - how did you come up with that gem? Hyderabad and Junagadh - well this issue has been discussed on various threads - revisit it.


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## Areesh

Jackdaws said:


> Gurdaspur? LOL - how did you come up with that gem? Hyderabad and Junagadh - well this issue has been discussed on various threads - revisit it.



Yeah I have visited those theads, with poor AM giving the answers to the questions which have been answered hundred times. 

Anyways I think you didn't understand my post.


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## Areesh

Marxist said:


> *external affairs minister S M Krishna *

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## Rafael

Mr. Krishna has gone nuts

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## Jackdaws

Areesh said:


> Yeah I have visited those theads, with poor AM giving the answers to the questions which have been answered hundred times.
> 
> Anyways I think you didn't understand my post.



In a nutshell - yea - Junagadh and Hyderabad were incorporated into India after partition. But Gurdaspur was awarded by the boundary commission. It had a lot of Ahmadiyas as well and the population was about evenly divided. Compare this to something like the Chittagong Hill Tracts which was awarded to Pakistan where majority were Hindus/Buddhists - you don't see Indians still talking about it.


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## footmarks

raheel1 said:


> Mr. Krishna has gone nuts



Just like his Pakistani counterpart has been for years

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## Indian1

nomi007 said:


> suicide attacks can settle the Kashmir issue with in 4 to 5 years.because if America can not stop them i Iraq & Afghanistan than who India can stop them


*
Lead by example, blow yourself up. *

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## Aslan



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## InPhilTraitor

nomi007 said:


> suicide attacks can settle the Kashmir issue with in 4 to 5 years.because if America can not stop them i Iraq & Afghanistan than who India can stop them



You are under-estimating Indians. I do not have to explain more than that. Especially, when it comes to suppressing insurgencies..

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## Zebronic

nomi007 said:


> suicide attacks can settle the Kashmir issue with in 4 to 5 years.because if America can not stop them i Iraq & Afghanistan than who India can stop them



This is what i call True Pakistani..This what a Pakistani can think and Pakistani army is trying to do this after Afghanistan war but they them self caught in the fire but still wanted to continue..great go for it..

Don't forget these terrorist is not present in India unlike pakistan, afganistan and iraq...

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## karan.1970

nomi007 said:


> suicide attacks can settle the Kashmir issue with in 4 to 5 years.because if America can not stop them i Iraq & Afghanistan than who India can stop them



Since how long have those attacks been happening in Israel??


Also they have been happening in Pakistan with a frightning frequency since last 2 years. What issue are those addressing?? I am asking because by your logic, that issue should get resolved in next 2-3 years.. Right?

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## storm seeker

he is above 60 i think ..... iss liay satthia gye hain

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## Kompromat

InPhilTraitor said:


> In 1965 they are ones who played pivotal role, that two begging nations not fight with their aid money.



proofs?



> I have to completely disagree, even if Kashmir issue is magically resolved, I do not see Pakistan & India being friends.



You need treatment.



> We are still Kaffirs, Cunning Brahmins, Opportunistic Banias, these stereotypes are institutionalized in Pakistan..



Your logic is laughable



> there are similar caricatures of Pakistanis that are played out India (even though not as bigoted).



They can be dealt with-same is the case with india.



> The best Indian and Pakistan can hope is to be peaceful neighbors.



That could be a good start.


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## WHF

krishna's stmt is a testimony to india's policy.....
*humein kasmir nahi dena hein....Aap kuch kar sakthey ho..??*

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## wap7

Well someone finally said it.

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## wap7

core issue? you fools never learn


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## Devil Soul

Well krishna should 1st look @ the IOK current situation before accusing PAK of illegal occupation.................


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## InPhilTraitor

Black Blood said:


> proofs?


Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> You need treatment.
> 
> Your logic is laughable



It is not, every one from A.Q.Khan a guy who seems to marry a western woman, talks about "Hindu Mentality", it is out there.
The animosity was there even in 1930 before all the Kashmir issue, I do not expect a Monroe doctrine any more in South Asia. 
The people in India and people in Pakistan are so divided at the best we can barely be nice to each other.. friends.. I do not see it.

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## muse

*Kashmir needs a political package *
Happymon Jacob 


*The most significant implication of this week's visit by an all-party delegation to Jammu and Kashmir is this: the Indian political class has collectively accepted the essentially political nature of the Kashmir problem. However, the benefits of the beginning of this much-awaited transformation of Kashmir from a securitised' narrative to a politicised' one will be short-lived if those reassuring words are not translated into actions.* The Hindu's editorial (September 14, 2010) accurately summed up the United Progressive Alliance government's current approach to the Kashmir issue and the urgent need to move beyond mere words: *By talking big while having little to offer, New Delhi has unwittingly fanned the flames in J&K.* Hence, the need now is to announce a clearly defined political package' for the agitating Kashmiris.

The all-party delegation cannot decide on such a political package; the Government of India can. But the more than hundred Kashmiris killed in recent months by the security forces have failed to prompt the Central government to think beyond its usual pious platitudes of dialogues, engagements and delegations. *If New Delhi is determined to live forever in ignorance and denial, why should Kashmiris respond with anything other than cynicism to its out-dated and bumbling efforts towards what it likes to call finding a solution'? New Delhi's complete lack of vision, seriousness and sincerity in previous dialogues with Kashmiris has understandably meant that the proposal is simply seen as a short-term tactic aimed to calm the situation. Once national and international attention wanes, and the Kashmiri protesters go about their normal lives, the government might go back, as it has done in the past, to the business of conveniently ignoring that thorny little issue in northwestern India*.

*Beyond platitudes*

What, then, can be done to bring peace to the Valley? *Can we, under the prevailing circumstances, lay out a clear roadmap for a political resolution of the Kashmir issue? The very fact that a political package is being contemplated as opposed to an improvised military strategy in order to address a political problem is itself encouraging. But there is a need to flesh out what it really entails. A long and drawn-out process of political dialogue without any time-bound commitments is unlikely to be accepted by Kashmiris; so the first step is to articulate a timeframe. A political solution to the Kashmir issue can be imagined as a multi-phased one, with measures relating to it being implemented in the immediate term, the intermediate term, and the long term.*

*Immediate measures*

In the immediate term, the government should put together a panel of senior Kashmir interlocutors. They should be asked to talk to a cross-section of Kashmiris, most importantly leaders of all dissident groups, in a sustained manner. *The government should immediately review the status and consider releasing all political prisoners arrested under the draconian Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act, or AFSPA, and such other laws. The AFSPA should then be suitably amended or withdrawn. There also has to be a rethinking on the Disturbed Areas Act and the Public Safety Act. Thereafter, an empowered judicial commission should be tasked to probe all fake encounters and civilian deaths in J&K at the hands of the security forces. The commission must have a legal mandate to prosecute erring officers, both civilian and military.*

*Intermediate term*

*In the intermediate term, a Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) should be set up in the State to help Kashmiris come to terms with their past and to advance the cause of justice and reconciliation. Both India and Kashmir need to make peace with each other and with their complicated past.* The TRC can consider bringing out a white paper on the commission and prosecution of human rights violations in J&K over the years. However, *the most important aspect of this political package should be the adherence to Article 370 of the Constitution in letter and spirit. Article 370 has been chipped away by a succession of State governments with the collusion and at the behest of New Delhi. Most of the key features of the Article have been distorted or removed to such an extent that it is no longer recognisable. This is severely resented by Kashmiris. Indeed, the National Conference-appointed State Autonomy Committee had, in 1999, recommended that the President of India should strike down all orders that infringe on the 1950 Constitution (Application to J-K) Order, and the Delhi Agreement of 1952. This recommendation was not heeded by the then Bharatiya Janata Party-led government. It should be revisited at the earliest in conjunction with other recommendations from political parties such as the People's Democratic Party.*

The *BJP and many other weak-hearted nationalists have argued that giving special treatment to Kashmir will loosen India's control there, creating a domino effect. They argue that such actions would contravene the spirit of national integration. Yet multiple Indian States enjoy special provisions in varying measure and are still as much a part of the nation as any other. Moreover, as the Supreme Court clearly observed in its judgment in Khazan Chand vs the State of Jammu and Kashmir (1984), J&K holds a special position in the constitutional set-up of our country. The Supreme Court further stated that Article 370 is the basis for a constitutional relationship between the Indian Union and J&K State.*

*For the long term*

*A permanent solution to the Kashmir issue is unlikely to emerge without the involvement of Pakistan.* In the longer term, therefore, there is a need to revisit the back-channel decisions reached by the two countries on Jammu and Kashmir that can be implemented in the State in consultation with the people of the State. *Now that Pakistan has, at least theoretically, given up many of its puritanical and irredentist positions on Kashmir, India should capitalise on the opportunity to seek mutually agreeable positions on the issue. India should also encourage the establishment of enduring linkages across the Line of Control, consultative mechanisms, trade, and public interaction between the two sides of J&K. Various non-governmental initiatives must be encouraged to bring people from the two sides of the erstwhile princely state. People-to-people contact such as this should not be underrated: it can contribute immeasurably to resolving long-standing conflicts such as that in J&K.

Any further delay in addressing the situation politically will lead to increasing schisms within the Kashmiri body politic. For instance, over the last few years we have seen an encouraging and creative political debate and ideological shifts between the mainstream and the dissidents in Kashmir. The ongoing agitation could undo that process of finding the middle ground. More significantly, one of the major casualties of this ongoing agitation would be the mainstream political ideas and processes in Kashmir. The mainstream Kashmiri politicians are not ready to go to the people today because they are scared and unsure what their response would be. The danger in Kashmir today is that the more mainstream your politics, the more likely it is that you would be termed a gaddar (traitor) by the agitating Kashmiris. So even the moderate dissidents are forced to take extreme positions.*

Engaging Kashmiris in a result-oriented and goal-driven manner as laid out here is indeed taking the road less travelled, a road that is not easy to take. And so, *before New Delhi decides to discard suggestions such as this, it needs to ask itself what serves India's long-term national interests better: maintaining the violent, chaotic, ungovernable status quo in Kashmir through brute force and military might, or meeting the legitimate political aspirations of the Kashmiris and convincing them that they have a place in the idea of India?*

(Happymon Jacob teaches at the School of International Studies, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi.)

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## WHF

Areesh said:


> Who says? Bharat? Not acceptable.
> 
> 
> 
> *I think this is all BS*. Until end the rant of integral part of India it doesn't matter whether Pakistan has control of AJK or not. Once you accept IOK as a a part of disputed territory you have the right to accuse us of "illegally" occupying AJK.



dont just think go and see for ur self the UN rules on kashmir which u ppl keep ranting about..There is nothing in the Un rules which is against india..

Wrong...illegal occupation comes when u occupy something which is not urs..hence as pakistan is in possesion of india teritory in the north so pakistan has illegally occupied parts of kashmir..


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## WHF

The day hindus in jammu and ladakh talk of freedom india should think about it else *dismiss*


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## WHF

nomi007 said:


> suicide attacks can settle the Kashmir issue with in 4 to 5 years.because if America can not stop them i Iraq & Afghanistan than who India can stop them



 whom will u kill in suicide attacks??who will help conduct suicide attacks??ISI? and guess what will happen in pak??By the way did suicide attacks all over pak let TTP gain control of pak??

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## RobbieS

> Any further delay in addressing the situation politically will lead to increasing schisms within the Kashmiri body politic. For instance, over the last few years we have seen an encouraging and creative political debate and ideological shifts between the mainstream and the dissidents in Kashmir. The ongoing agitation could undo that process of finding the middle ground. More significantly, one of the major casualties of this ongoing agitation would be the mainstream political ideas and processes in Kashmir. The mainstream Kashmiri politicians are not ready to go to the people today because they are scared and unsure what their response would be. The danger in Kashmir today is that the more mainstream your politics, the more likely it is that you would be termed a gaddar (traitor) by the agitating Kashmiris. So even the moderate dissidents are forced to take extreme positions.



Totally agree with the above. We have to acknowledge that Azadi is a demand however unfeasible it may be. GoI should be willing to discuss it at least if that soothes tempers and prepares the ground for engagement with Kashmiris.

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## muse

> Yet Indian officials concede that this latest unrest is different, a domestic Kashmiri revolt against Indian rule, unlike past insurgencies sponsored by Pakistan.




See, so long as the demand for Azadi in captive Kashmir could be conflated with radical Islamism emanating from Pakistan - much of the world, primarily the liberal democratic regimes could be counted on to sober or tamper their ideological and moral compulsion to support the captives - however, with Pakistan out of the picture, the Indian are in a pickle and therefore desperate to someone create an event that they could point to Pakistani complicity with events in captive Kashmir.

Now since Pakistan is an immediate non-issue, the Indian central governments response will be most interesting to observe, as will the reaction of Western powers, or at least reaction that is observed through media.

The Hindu paper has thought provoking piece by Mr. Happymon, I recommend it to our forum members.


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## karan.1970

TechLahore said:


> Kashmir is not like "any Indian state". Not even in your own constitution. It is also an internationally recognized disputed territory. Are you suggesting that every state in India meets this definition?
> 
> I understand you were just spewing rhetoric in your post, but keep that to yourself. It doesn't add any value in the discussion.



Its not only J&K that is treated as a special state with article 370. There are other states too. A special status does not amount to a right for independence. Basic premise of democracy. A subset of population can not decide their alligeance among themselves. Any decision about Jammu & Kashmir needs to be taken by whole of India and not just Kashmiris. After all, J&K is not an exclusive property of people living in that state. Just like Delhi doesnt belong to just Delhiits or Lahore to Lahoris..

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## karan.1970

Omar1984 said:


> *Pakistan pleads for US intervention on Kashmir
> ​*
> NEW YORK  Pakistan on Tuesday urged the United States to pressure India over Kashmir, saying recent unrest showed that New Delhi and not Islamabad was to blame for trouble in the Himalayan territory.
> 
> On a visit to New York for a UN session on Pakistan's devastating floods, Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi insisted his government wanted peace with India but tore into its rule of Kashmir which he called "oppression."
> 
> *"The occupation cannot continue. The rights of the Kashmiri people cannot continue to be denied," Qureshi said at the Council on Foreign Relations, a think-tank.*
> 
> "We call upon the United States particularly, which is pressing so responsibly for peace in the Middle East, to also invest its political capital in trying to help seek an accommodation on Kashmir," he said.
> 
> "Such an accommodation would not only be just for the people of Kashmir but would be critical for peace in the region," he said, warning that "terrorism... has fueled and thrived on blatant examples of social and political injustice."
> 
> President Barack Obama's administration is seeking a broader relationship with India but also friendlier ties with Pakistan, a key battleground in the fight against Islamic extremism.
> 
> India considers Kashmir a domestic issue and rejects any foreign involvement. The Obama administration has steered clear of Kashmir after early statements triggered a backlash in India.
> 
> Kashmir, a Himalayan territory with a Muslim majority but a sizeable Hindu minority, has been disputed between India and Pakistan since independence and triggered two full-fledged wars between them.
> 
> An insurgency erupted on the Indian side in 1989 but had subsided in recent years. Indian authorities, along with some outside experts, say that Pakistan actively supported Islamic guerrillas who sneaked across the frontier.
> 
> *But in recent weeks, waves of protesters have turned to the streets to rally against Indian rule in Kashmir. Security forces have shot dead more than 100 demonstrators.
> 
> "At times it's easy for the Indians to look toward Pakistan and blame Pakistan for everything that's going wrong in Indian-occupied Kashmir," Qureshi said.
> 
> But he said "no one any longer can seriously believe this."
> 
> "Can Pakistan orchestrate thousands of people? Can Pakistan plan, sitting in Islamabad, a shutdown all over Kashmir?" he said*



If there was a similar move by India against Pakistan, the thread would have been proliferated up the wazzoo with pictures like these.







but I am glad we are having a much saner discussion here

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## KS

muse said:


> The BJP and many other weak-hearted nationalists have argued that giving special treatment to Kashmir will loosen India's control there, creating a domino effect. They argue that such actions would contravene the spirit of national integration. Yet *multiple Indian States enjoy special provisions in varying measure and are still as much a part of the nation as any other.*



None of the other states other than one or two in NE like Nagaland have special provisions.And yes this article is *in contradiction to the constitutionally granted right to every Indian to buy land,settle in any part of India.*

So this "anti-constitutional" law needs to be repealed at the earliest.



muse said:


> Moreover, as the *Supreme Court clearly observed in its judgment* in Khazan Chand vs the State of Jammu and Kashmir (1984), J&K &#8220;_holds a special position in the constitutional set-up of our country._&#8221; The Supreme Court further stated that Article 370 is the basis for a constitutional relationship between the Indian Union and J&K State.



The Supreme court's observation is based on existing law and there is no rule that objects/prohibts changing the constitution according to the ground realities and if the people (for whom the constitution was written) want that.



muse said:


> Now that Pakistan has, at least theoretically, *given up many of its puritanical and irredentist positions on Kashmir*, India should capitalise on the opportunity to seek mutually agreeable positions on the issue.



What was Pakistan's previous puritanical position and in what way it has given them up now.? Any one...?



muse said:


> Engaging Kashmiris in a result-oriented and goal-driven manner as laid out here is indeed taking the road less travelled, a road that is not easy to take. And so, before New Delhi decides to discard suggestions such as this, *it needs to ask itself what serves India's long-term national interests better:* maintaining the violent, chaotic, ungovernable status quo in Kashmir through brute force and military might, or meeting the legitimate political aspirations of the Kashmiris and convincing them that they have a place in the idea of India?



Everyone knows that maintaining the military is not good and that we have to convince the Kashmiris that they are a part of India and *India only.*.
But if they are not willing to listen to that and every appeal from the rest of Indians to them falls on deaf ears and if by "legitimate aspirations" ,the author or the Kashmiris mean independence or secession to Kashmir,then sorry the military will stay there and that is in the interest of India.

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## KS

Omar1984 said:


> Is this child a fanatic?
> India soldiers kill Kashmiri child in protests [ WORLD BULLETIN- TURKEY NEWS, WORLD NEWS ]



No the child is definitely not a fanatic,but his father/mother/guardian/brother who took the child to the protests,thus causing his death is a fanatic,coward and whatever u might name him.



TechLahore said:


> Please don't lie. The Kashmir issue has been alive since 1947 and has nothing to do with fanaticism. It is about people having the right to self-determination and about following the principles by which the partition of India was carried out.



Kashmir is a issue of religious fanaticism and intolerance. 

Please have a look into this:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/72941-two-face-kashmiri-muslims-their-so-called-independence-movement-2.html#post1142277

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## Skies

Black Blood said:


> They know if the kashmir issue is resolved then Pakistan and India will become allies , our borders would be opened , there would be trade happening all over the place our people would be well off and Pakistan would help India to solve their issues with china and by having done that America as a sole super power wont be the only one . Eu wont be the only union , do you see my points benny?



Then India should not wait to solve.......




nomi007 said:


> suicide attacks can settle the Kashmir issue with in 4 to 5 years.because if America can not stop them i Iraq & Afghanistan than who India can stop them



Right - both theoretically and practically.


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## trident2010

We should get P.O.K first and then make entire J&K as union territory .. 

Sooner than later it will happen, insallah !!

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## Devil Soul

trident2010 said:


> We should get P.O.K first and then make entire J&K as union territory ..
> 
> Sooner than later it will happen, insallah !!



one cant be stopped from day dreaming


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## muse

To help our Indian forum members focus, lets us re-frame for them. nationalistic emotion is at work in the captive kashmir versus the Indian Federation -- Both groups of peoples have their own versions of national-ism, with different substance to that nationalism -- isn't this right? 

How can can it be maintained that these are part of one overarching idea of Indianhood? After all the substance of their nationalism is different and opposing. One seeks Freedom and the other seeks to keep them captive.

When all is said and done, when all the the "Tu tu mein mein" is done, the reality is that the captives want their freedom, and sooner or later, you know it, they will win it.

But there is a great opportunity for all in this freedom of the captive Kashmiri - you just have to think about it in a more calm and reasonable manner.

Indian officials, if not all Indians, but certainly thinking Indians realize that in order for India to realize it's position in south Asia, in Asia lat large, it must not have any territorial problems with her neighbors, that it must have the very very best relations with her neighbors - the reality is that today, India is in a cage, a cage of her own making - despised in Nepal, in Bangla and in Lanka and then there is of course Pakistan -- but the bigger problem is being at peace internally: destruction by fanatic Hindus of a 16th century place of worship has the supreme courts and government ministers busy - it's incredible for a country that aspires to an international standing of respect.

Decisions in line with reality must be made, they cannot be easy, but they become progressively more difficult the more India hide from making these decisions. There is a world to win, let that be the focus, not hollow slogans of nationalism that ignores history and reality.


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## ek_indian

Faltu ki bahas hai...kuch nahi hone wala....afterall we are third most powerful nation (humour intended)...


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## Je suis de retour

Islamabad
Upping the ante, Pakistan on Thursday said there can be no result-oriented discussions with India on the Kashmir unless New Delhi stops treating it as the country's integral part and seeking a solution within the ambit of the Indian Constitution.
Intensifying the criticism of the situation in Jammu and Kashmir, Pakistan Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit called on India to "revisit its approach and its Kashmir policy rather than trying cosmetic measures here and there because this is not going to bring about any difference as far as the Jammu and Kashmir dispute is concerned."

"Unless India takes a fresh look at its Kashmir policy, does some introspection and stops treating Jammu and Kashmir as its integral part and stops harping on seeking a solution within the Indian Constitution, we do not believe that we can really have any meaningful or result-oriented discussions with India on this (issue)," Basit told a weekly news briefing.

He was responding to a question on the Indian government's efforts to address the protests in Jammu and Kashmir by sending a delegation of political leaders to meet Kashmiri leaders.

Basit noted that the Hurriyat Conference had already rejected the move.

He also described as "self-serving" India's rejection of resolutions passed by both houses of Pakistan's Parliament condemning the violence in Jammu and Kashmir and calling on the international community to ensure the implementation of UN resolutions on Kashmir.

"Jammu and Kashmir is an international issue and subject of several UN resolutions. The Senate and National Assembly resolutions of September 20 reflect the concerns of the people of Pakistan on the gross and systematic violations of human rights of the Kashmiri people by Indian security forces," he said.

Basit noted that the UN Secretary General had called for an end to the violence while the Organisation of the Islamic Conference and Amnesty International had asked India to end the violence and protect the rights of people.

"Pakistan is committed to finding a just and peaceful settlement of the Jammu and Kashmir dispute and will continue extending its moral, diplomatic and political support to Kashmiris in their legitimate struggle against Indian occupation," he said.

In response to another question, Basit said Pakistan is not undertaking any propaganda against India on the Kashmir issue.

"If you are describing that as propaganda on the part of Pakistan, it is totally self-serving and just to mislead the international community because the issue is far bigger than what the Indians are saying," he said.

Pak asks India to stop treating Kashmir as its integral part


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## trident2010

Devil Soul said:


> one cant be stopped from day dreaming




And in my dream I also saw that you are a President of Balochistan  .. lolzzz

Have a nice day !!

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## KS

muse said:


> How can can it be maintained that these are part of one overarching idea of Indianhood? After all the substance of their nationalism is different and opposing. One seeks Freedom and the other seeks to keep them captive.
> 
> When all is said and done, when all the the "Tu tu mein mein" is done, the reality is that the captives want their freedom, and sooner or later, you know it, they will win it.



Who seeks freedom (secession) - Is it the Kashmiris in general or the Muslims in the Valley alone.?

It is a very important question because any such demand based on a flawed version of religious intolerance is not acceptable in a secular country.



muse said:


> But there is a great opportunity for all in this freedom of the captive Kashmiri - you just have to think about it in a more calm and reasonable manner.



The two attributes mentioned are unfortunately missing in the "captive" (???) Kashmiri Muslim.



muse said:


> Indian officials, if not all Indians, but certainly thinking Indians realize that in order for India to realize it's position in south Asia, in Asia lat large, *it must not have any territorial problems with her neighbors,* that it must have the very very best relations with her neighbors



True....but for that India cannot bend on its backward to placate tiny neighbours because we are big,we are militarily more powerful and we are economically bigger.

It has to be a two way street,not a one way one.



muse said:


> - the reality is that today, India is in a cage, a cage of her own making - despised in Nepal, in Bangla and in Lanka and then there is of course Pakistan -- but the bigger problem is being at peace internally: destruction by fanatic Hindus of a 16th century place of worship has the supreme courts and government ministers busy - it's incredible for a country that aspires to an international standing of respect.



Reality according to some people's illusions (what an oxymoron).

Despised by the Nepali Maoists on the payroll of the Chinese,not by ordinary Nepalis.

Despised by Jamatis who make up about 4&#37; of the population in Bangladesh,not by the majority Bangalis who are friendly towards Indians for our role in their independence.

Despised by Sri Lankans whose PM says Srilanks is like a sister of India.
Cmon ppl.



muse said:


> Decisions in line with reality must be made, they cannot be easy, but they become progressively more difficult the more India hide from making these decisions. There is a world to win, let that be the focus, not hollow slogans of nationalism that ignores history and reality.



The only reality is the Valley cannot survive as an independent nation with 3 nuclear powers at its borders and secession to Pakistan is like finding a waterfall in the Sahara.

The sooner the Valley ppl wake up to this reality,the better for all.

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## Black Stone

I personally don't want the US to get involved in this. Let Pakistanis, Indians and the Kashmiris resolve this.

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## Kinetic

US could never intervened in 63 years and now also they can't intervene. Above all I don't think they will. 



Black Blood said:


> Americans would never do that , we will . Its in their extreme favor to keep us fighting and keep Lockheed martin , Boeing and others getting our arms contracts.
> *
> They know if the kashmir issue is resolved then Pakistan and India will become allies* , our borders would be opened , there would be trade happening all over the place our people would be well off and Pakistan would help India to solve their issues with china and by having done that America as a sole super power wont be the only one . Eu wont be the only union , do you see my points benny?



I don't think so. Kashmir issue solved doesn't mean India-Pakistan become allies. Neither they give up hatred.


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## SpArK

*When you fire on us, don't you feel the pain: Kashmiri youths*

Home Minister P Chidambaram today faced some tough questions from Kashmiri youth who asked him whether he felt no pain when security forces fired on peaceful protestors and told him that unemployment was the major reason for unrest in the state. Chidambaram, who is leading an all-party delegation to Jammu and Kashmir, interacted with local youth in Tangmarg.

*"The issue of Kashmir is a genuine issue. Many leaders come here and go but do not listen to the problems of the Kashmiri youth. The Kashmiri youth are facing unemployment,*" a local youth told Chidambaram.

He added that though the youth wanted to progress, they were not allowed to do so.

*"We want an opportunity to move ahead. You also see that we are not allowed to move ahead. When we protest, there is firing which is not the case in other states," *he added.

A school had been burned down here on Eid last Saturday. Five people were killed in firing during protests.

During the interaction with Chidambaram today, another young man posed him a few candid questions. He asked the Home Minister why even peaceful protestors were fired upon by the security forces in the valley.

"When you fire on us, don't you feel the pain? When you cut us, when you fire on Kashmiris?" he asked.

Chidambaram gave the group of youngsters a patient hearing and appeared to sympathise with them.

Earlier, the all-party delegation faced angry mobs when they visited a hospital where some of the injured were undergoing treatment.


When you fire on us, don't you feel the pain: Kashmiri youths - Hindustan Times


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## EjazR

I think Pakistanis failed to see that the Musharraf-Singh forumula is the closest ever we got to solving the KAshmir dispute and frankly any solution will always lie somewhere around that.

Principle is the idea of Kashmiriyat which traditionally is an religiously inclusive ideology like the idea of India unlike Pakistaniyat which atleast for now is based on a two-nation theory. Pakistan,India or China will not allow Kashmir to become independant and that is the crux ofthe matter.

And I have to really wonder if people understand that situation when they compare India with situation like Afghanistan, Iraq or Vietanm. IS that really a comparible situation?

The US or the USSR had no realtion with these areas, had long lines of logistics and more importantly had a significant home public opinion that saw that it was against its interest to be holding ground militarily. It was not as if, militarily US or USSR were defeated strictly speaking. It was just a matter of public fatigue. It was politcally not feasible to continue the war. So it was public opinion that resulted in the withdrawal, not a military defeat.

Now compare that with Russia in Chechenya, a far longer and more violent history, or China in Tibet or Xinjian, equally violent and brutal coupled with even the freedom of religious pratice. This areas are considered part of the country, and no matter what the cost of the assymetrical warfare, there is no reason for them to give up.

What probably you would realise is that just like Russia or China, India would forego its aspiration to play a global role if the dispute was affecting that(which it doe'snt seem to at the moment btw) rather than redraw borders. Particularly when the only way a 1990s situation in Kashmir can be created is if Pakistan backs them which would further isolate it if it involves itself in abetting infiltration.

There only two ways that the borders can be changed.

(1) A international intervention by military powers, to enforce a new boundary. Most likely that would be the end of Kashmir valley as we know as in the insuing war and nuclear weapons to boot, there are chances of mass casualty.

(2) A democratic public opinion change among the people of India including Jammu Kashmir(remember not every in the state wants to seperate from India) with atleast three fourths majority agreeing on redrawing of borders.

Barring these two, there is no option of changing borders. Ofcourse there is a possiblity of coming up with a compromise solution somewhere in between like the Musharraf-Singh formulae.
-------

A point on using terrorism and *haram* activities like suicide bombings that some Pakistanis seem to salivate on. These is something that you should wish if you hate the Kashmiris. Until 1989 there were no army or security forces present in population areas in the valley. No AFSPA or similar laws. IT was thanks to the Pakistani backed infiltration of fanatics from Pakistan and other parts of the muslim world that brought this situation on them. Not only that these militants were responsible for killing more than 15000 civilians out of the 60000 estimated dead in the past two decades.

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## muse

A disappointing post Ejaz, particularly how you have imagined India and the present and future as a representation of the past:


> What probably you would realise is that just like Russia or China, India would forego its aspiration to play a global role if the dispute was affecting that(which it doe'snt seem to at the moment btw)




You will note that India are deprived the "Islamist" bugaboo since even Indian officials have to confess that the political action in captive Kashmir does not have a Pakistani imprimatur, but the captive Kashmiri themselves want Pakistan as a solution --- now, what if this "Islam" enemy thing stops paying the kinds of dividends that it paid in the past - recall reading something about fatigue -- now, if it turns out that this movement can be politically mollified then both Pakistan and India dodge a bullet, right? what if it isn't?? What if things get out of control and Indians end up killing a significantly higher number of people and the UN just can't look away, or the even the US media can't look away??

See, either way, it's a problem that has to be dealt with, now I'm not suggesting that Musharraf (my main man) had it wrong, but he's not on the scene and we have what we have to deal with.


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## Rafael

footmarks said:


> Just like his Pakistani counterpart has been for years



at least you accepted that your's is 

We'll decide about ours soon!


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## EjazR

*but the captive Kashmiri themselves want Pakistan as a solution*

Forgive me if I'm yet to be convinced on this account, but my personal interactions as well as numerous opinion polls by non-Indian groups have consistently shown that the valley Kashmiris want independance. And that includes areas under Pakistani control including Gilgit Baltistan as well as Jammu and Ladakh. I would admit freely that 80-90&#37; in the valley have this viewpoint. Now I realise that Pakistan will not just withdraw and handover these areas. It will probably give some sort of autonomy but still hold defence, foreign affairs and other subjects. 
------------------------

When I say that according to my reading, India would rather forego its global aspirations rather than give up Kashmir, I don't say that I am happy with it but I see that is the reality atleast for the forseeable future. Indian political class still has a lot of post-colonial issues and like China jeloulsy and zelously guards questions on soverignity. Just look at the tango being played in signing military pacts with the US like CISMOA e.t.c. Somthing that Pakistan did in the 1950s without issues. 

And the idea that sepratists are Pakistani-backed or at the least politcal Islamists is deep rooted and also not incorrect to an extent. It is what the Indian public opinion is that matters in this situation. I am not saying that it is correct, but it is a net negative for the Kashmiri sepratists to be associated with Islamists or Pakistani sponsors or terrorist outfits like LeT or Hizb. But it may change when you see the Kashmiri intellectuals and others on TV debates constantly saying that this has nothing to do with Pakistan e.t.c. 


Personally, the counter-terrorism scenario IMO has to be looked primarily as a homeland security issue in India. India needs to get its act together. And that also means getting its act together on police reforms. There is no way to justify the death of 100+ people for throwing stones. I don't agree that they "deserved" to be shot at just because they were throwing stones. And I would be surprised if Chidambaram could not see that. HR violations and invesitgation into that is something that India can and should do without any resolution of the polical problem. And this is a problem India-wide. Last 70+ Gujjars were shot in Rajasthan ina reservation agitation. Similarly in UP in 2008 almost 300+ people were shot in seperate agitations. In Bengal you had 50+ shot in land aquistion agitations. This is just horrible.

The J&K police is probably one of the best COIN police in the country and have done an excellent job in helping in brining the situation militarily undercontrol. But now its time to get the police and CRPF in particular up to speed with riot control duties and more importanly to uphold HR in conflict zones. If they can do COIN, there is no reason why they can't do riot control.

About UN and US interfering, I am being a realist here. As long as there are statements saying the solution lies in a peaceful negotiated settlement of the solution between India and Pakistan. It will stay a bilateral issue. It seems that the current strategy of GoP is to shame India into a compromise. But recall in the 1990s, Pakistan was a darling of the media, a partner of the US that had helped it win the Cold war against the USSR, and India was on its economic knees, unstable government with massive bad press like the Babri masjid demolitions e.t.c, it was not enough for India to compromise and infact some of the most massive operations and HR violations took place during that period. So will the situation turn back to the 90s. I don't see that happening as long as infiltration is checked, and the protestors are peaceful, and riot control is taken seriously.

I hope its gets solved soon. I agree its an issue, but at the same time there has to be compromise on all sides--India, Pakistan and Kashmir valley, and a look at the bigger picture on who is gaining or losing what.

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## Awesome

Americans are extremely greedy for Indian money. They are ready to **** mother-democracy and grandma liberty for the money India throws at them.

The genocide of Kashmiris goes on while America keeps aligning India as its chief ally in the region.


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## Areesh

trident2010 said:


> And in my dream I also saw that you are a President of Balochistan  .. lolzzz
> 
> Have a nice day !!



And I can just hope that this forum is clean from people like you as soon as possible. And unlike you I know my wish going to be fulfill very soon.


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## muse

Asim

Look at the trade deficit figures between the Indian and the US - very interesting -- and something Ejaz does not take into account at all, that the US needs this problem solved -- After Afghanistan, the US will have only the NATO Turkiye - Qatar and Iraq bases are in constant danger and once out of Afghanistan, it's going to be a different world for them.

Something else that Ejaz does not account for is the notion of long term subversion - I don't necessarily mean by a external force, but by the kind of dynamic developing both between the two confessions and significantly between how Muslims in India see each other, a fascinating development with much potential.

In spirit I'm with Ejaz, I do however question whether it's beneficial to keep formulating analysis on basis that sem not to change or evolve.


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## footmarks

raheel1 said:


> at least you accepted that your's is
> 
> We'll decide about ours soon!



Do you really believe in my words?? Because I also want to say that you are the biggest nut.


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## KILLA

okay! Okay i get a point for all pakistan friends as this will pave path for kashmir talks 'Why don't pakistan create an example by liberation of balucistan ? They asking for seperation since long... They don't want to be under pakistan federal law but a total independence ...please put some light over this issue too...


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## KILLA

well please don't give us lame excuse about indian dollar power.. Indo - US honeymoon just started from past few years but what about the rest of 50yearz when india was just like backbencer in UN and pakistan was dating US ...


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## karan.1970

Do remember that there was a time, when USA used to push / nudge India on Kashmir. And at that time India's position was no where near as good as it is today. So its a non event. Hypothetically even if Obama responds to this childish appeal, the max that will happen is that the Pakistani members of forums like Defence.pk will have a louder e-voice for next few days. If he doesnt, it will be Indians who will have a party.. So either way, someone gets to enjoy.. Thats what I call inclusive politics..

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## Developereo

TechLahore said:


> Please don't lie. The Kashmir issue has been alive since 1947 and has nothing to do with fanaticism.



It is entirely possible that some Indian govt. or private group will carry out a false flag operation at the CWG and blame it on the Kashmiris to discredit their struggle and legitmize full scale military operations in Kashmir. They may even coax and facilitate some gullible Kashmiri group to do the legwork and think they are planning the whole thing.


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## toppys

*Free Kashmir! *

_With the purchase of another Kashmir of equal or greater value.Other conditions apply.Subject to market conditions. Users can try it at their own risk.Vendor is absovled of all responsibilities. Vendor can deny sale to any participant. Please check our website for participating locations._


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## toppys

KILLA said:


> well please don't give us lame excuse about indian dollar power.. Indo - US honeymoon just started from past few years but what about the rest of 50yearz when india was just like backbencer in UN and pakistan was dating US ...



just ex wife bitching about new one...


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## karan.1970

^ You guys read too much of Robert Ludlum...

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## ek_indian

Seems like creation of another CIA+Mossad+RAW+MI6 (or whatever number)+NASA+X+Y.... conspiracy.

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## third eye

Developereo said:


> It is entirely possible that some Indian govt. or private group will carry out a false flag operation at the CWG and blame it on the Kashmiris to discredit their struggle and legitmize full scale military operations in Kashmir. They may even coax and facilitate some gullible Kashmiri group to do the legwork and think they are planning the whole thing.



Are we preparing grounds for defence in advance ?

The repercussions of a misadventure during CWG will be very severe.


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## RobbieS

Asim Aquil said:


> Americans are extremely greedy for Indian money. They are ready to **** mother-democracy and grandma liberty for the money India throws at them.
> 
> The genocide of Kashmiris goes on while America keeps aligning India as its chief ally in the region.



America keeps falling in and out of favor with Pakistan. Millions of dollar aid for the floods and still Pakistanis see them as greedy.


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## gubbi

muse said:


> *Kashmir needs a political package *
> Happymon Jacob
> 
> 
> *Immediate measures*
> 
> In the immediate term, the government should put together a panel of senior Kashmir interlocutors. They should be asked to talk to a cross-section of Kashmiris, most importantly leaders of all dissident groups, in a sustained manner. *The government should immediately review the status and consider releasing all political prisoners arrested under the draconian Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act, or AFSPA, and such other laws. The AFSPA should then be suitably amended or withdrawn. There also has to be a rethinking on the Disturbed Areas Act and the Public Safety Act. Thereafter, an empowered judicial commission should be tasked to probe all fake encounters and civilian deaths in J&K at the hands of the security forces. The commission must have a legal mandate to prosecute erring officers, both civilian and military.*
> 
> 
> (Happymon Jacob teaches at the School of International Studies, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi.)



Very important factor to subdue unrest. AFSPA is the only, repeat the ONLY instrument by which the Indian Army can be called to help local law enforcement authorities, that too under civilian control. IIRC, there is no other provision in the Indian Constitution which gives the army any kind of power/authority to walk into the civilian infrastructures. AFSPA can be invoked ONLY when Disturbed Areas Act has been invoked. 

That being said, I for one would NOT like to see the Army doing Police duties in my neighborhood. They are there for a specific job, not policing. But considering the situation created in Kashmir by vested interests, it was justified to invoke Disturbed Areas Act and subsequently AFSPA to help combat sponsored terrorism. 

However, if AFSPA can be amended or partially diluted, it can go a long way in changing perceptions of the common man in Kashmir. We did away with TADA & POTA so this should not be that hard.


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## kingdurgaking

muse said:


> *Kashmir needs a political package *





As of title i suggest that no special package should be given to them.. Instead people should be made to work hard and they should be made to struggle for there upliftment... Only if they work hard they will not have time for getting brain washed by external elements.. These kind of special packages will make them lazy and ultimately youth like me who are there are brain washed....

The only good package they are eligible for is education & water... Electricity, food and all other basic things should be procured by hardwork of kashmiris itself

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## Parashuram1

I believe that the Americans are extremely busy with their military plans in Afghanistan and with their economy in trouble, it would be prudent that both of your countries solve this matter through the means you see fit.

Americans have intervened before but still the issue is in deadlock. So, there's no point of again calling them especially when they are not as firm as they were 3 decades ago.

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## Tuahaa

Why would US do that? We are their slaves, not their allies


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## toppys

silent hill said:


> and were is the US, it came to afghanistan to give freedom to afghans, it came to iraq, to provide freedom, ot came to indonesia to give freedom to east temorians, it gave freedom to kosovo, etc it came to veitnam to provide freedom, but no freedom for kashmiris??
> 
> only where they interests lye??



The freedom US gives will be full freedom for kashmir. That is good for pakistan will be cut smaller again..
Loosing an arm for the enemys one finger is not a great option

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## karan.1970

silent hill said:


> and were is the US, it came to afghanistan to give freedom to afghans, it came to iraq, to provide freedom, ot came to indonesia to give freedom to east temorians, it gave freedom to kosovo, etc it came to veitnam to provide freedom, but no freedom for kashmiris??
> 
> only where they interests lye??



They may make a stopover in Pakistan on their way to Kashmir. Eh??


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## Materialistic

I see Indian members refraining to reply on the topic itself. People are more interested to comment on other posters!


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## JonAsad

Materialistic said:


> I see Indian members refraining to reply on the topic itself. People are more interested to comment on other posters!



This is indian hypocricy at its best, innocent lives have no meaning to them.

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## Omar1984

*OIC urges India to stop rights violations in IHK​*

* Stresses need to enter into constructive, sustained dialogue with Pakistan to settle conflict once and for all

ISLAMABAD: Reacting to the ongoing violence against the people of Indian-held Kashmir (IHK), a panel of the Organisation of Islamic Countries foreign ministers asked India on Wednesday to stop human rights violations and take steps to resolve the lingering South Asian conflict peacefully.

The OIC Foreign Ministers Kashmir Contact Group stressed the need to resolve the Kashmir dispute, asking India to enter into a constructive, sustained and result-oriented dialogue with Pakistan to settle the conflict once and for all.

A 12-point declaration adopted by OIC during a meeting in New York, asked the international community to initiate urgent steps for safeguarding the human rights of Kashmiris including their right to self-determination. The Secretary General of the OIC, Dr Normal Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, chaired the meeting.

Foreign ministers and representatives of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Republic of Niger besides AJK Prime Minister Sardar Attique Ahmed Khan and Kashmir Centre Washington Executive Director Dr Ghulam Nabi Fai addressed the meeting. India denied travel documents to leaders of occupied Kashmir including APHC Chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq.

The declaration condemned Indian atrocities in the occupied territory by its troops including killings, violations of human rights and arrests of innocent people. It urged India to release all illegally detained Kashmiri Hurriyet leaders and activists.

Earlier, a memorandum was presented to the OIC secretary general by the representatives of Kashmir to highlight the urgency to resolve the lingering dispute. The memorandum asked the OIC to enter into dialogue with EU and other world forums over Kashmir besides emphasising to sending an OIC representative to the territory.

Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi renewed Islamabads support for the inalienable rights of the Kashmiri people, which have been denied by India. The US media, meanwhile, criticised New Delhi for being indifferent to aspirations of the Kashmiris. 

Pakistan urged Islamic countries to throw their weight behind the Kashmiri peoples just demand for the right to self-determination, saying their indigenous struggle has gained a new momentum and urgency. 

It is our moral obligation and collective responsibility to support the Kashmiri people, Qureshi said. app

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Late and shallow response by the OIC.


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## somebozo

IOK saga, CWG pressure and Ayodha verdict...when sh1t happens..its always a lot of it..!

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## TechLahore

kingdurgaking said:


> Sir jee i can see you have very very true concern for our Kashmiri people.. why cant you suggest to GOP to do like this...
> 
> 1) Ask the people in Kashmir region who is revolting for freedom to cancel Indian citizenship and get pakistan citizenship..
> 2) Ask them to leave the land.. you can argue that it is there place



This is a remarkable suggestion. But because they are Kashmiri and have an inalienable, God-given right to their own land, they will take a per-capita portion of the land with them too. Hold such a referendum and I think the GoP would be open to supporting it. If 50% of Kashmiris presently under Indian control want to join Pakistan, half of IoK comes with them. If all of them do, then...


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## TechLahore

karan.1970 said:


> Its not only J&K that is treated as a special state with article 370. There are other states too. A special status does not amount to a right for independence. Basic premise of democracy. A subset of population can not decide their alligeance among themselves. Any decision about Jammu & Kashmir needs to be taken by whole of India and not just Kashmiris. After all, J&K is not an exclusive property of people living in that state. Just like Delhi doesnt belong to just Delhiits or Lahore to Lahoris..



I know you are intelligent enough to see the broader point. Nationalistic urges aside, we have to accept - as Indians or Pakistanis - that the Kashmir issue has been a cause of dispute since day 1, and that it is an internationalized issue which has been the subject of several UN resolutions. You have to accept that any map which reflects the UN's officially sanctioned view, shows Kashmir as disputed territory. There are no LoCs and no marks of "disputed" viz any other state in India and Pakistan at least... I know there are issues with China, but let's leave that aside for now. Thus, in no way can Kashmir be equated to other "states" or other security issues within either India or Pakistan.


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## bandit

TechLahore said:


> This is a remarkable suggestion. But because they are Kashmiri and have an inalienable, God-given right to their own land, they will take a per-capita portion of the land with them too. Hold such a referendum and I think the GoP would be open to supporting it. If 50% of Kashmiris presently under Indian control want to join Pakistan, half of IoK comes with them. If all of them do, then...



Good point, but as the recent polls suggest, majority wants to go independent, so if the Kashmiris including the ones in AJK want their own land, would the you agree to let go of the land in ***.?


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## desiman

Why is Pakistan pleading to USA now ? seems quite comical that a country which identifies itself as being the "Leader"of muslim nations would ask for help from the "American Infidels" the muslim world hates so much. Kashmir is just another point for Pakistan to maintain an issue internally and externally to basically define its own existence. As noted by a famous psychiatrist, its very important for a failing society to have an "Enemy" image to define its own image. For Pakistan that enemy image is India and its definition depends solely on its fictitious support on the Kashmir issue. Take away this issue and another Kashmir will rise somewhere else in India and the rhetoric will start again. Kashmir is more of an excuse to adjust south Asia to a more favorable for Pakistan and nothing more than that. With the thoughts of 1971 still very much alive, the policy of dividing India up also seems to be the primary goal of the Pakistani federation. After Kashmir, it will be Hyderabad, then the Naxal affected states and so on. Only India can provide the people of Kashmir with what they require to grow, living in the shadow of a Islamist Pakistan will only ruin the little system India has managed to maintain in the region. Kashmir welfare is with India and sooner or later that understanding is bound to take shape.

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## NWO

bandit said:


> Good point, but as the recent polls suggest, majority wants to go independent, so if the Kashmiris including the ones in AJK want their own land, would the you agree to let go of the land in ***.?


AJK functions pretty much as its own state right now, so if they wanted full independence, they can have it.


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## desiman

NWO said:


> AJK functions pretty much as its own state right now, so if they wanted full independence, they can have it.



really, so AJK can have freedom if they want it ? please stop kidding, first give them the resources to survive before you give them freedom. The economic condition of AJK is the single biggest deterrent for any Kashmiri dreaming of joining Pakistan. You can compare Indian Kashmirs and AJK's economy too see where I am coming from, the differences are huge.


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## bandit

NWO said:


> AJK functions pretty much as its own state right now, so if they wanted full independence, they can have it.



How?
By swearing loyalty to Pakistani constitution. By swearing to be an Islamic state? When the whole of kashmir can only join Pakistan? This independence charade is just going too far.


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## Awesome

Indians need to step up and stop this senseless murders of Kashmiris. 8 year old boys are not a fair kill in their name.

Remember if you make Kashmiri 8 year olds a fair kill, tomorrow someone will make Indian 8 year olds a fair kill. No matter what the reason, there is no justification of killing small children.


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## brahmastra

WTF!


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## StingRoy

Asim Aquil said:


> Remember if you make Kashmiri 8 year olds a fair kill, tomorrow someone will make Indian 8 year olds a fair kill. No matter what the reason, there is no justification of killing small children.



Don't forget ... An 8 year old Kashmiri is also an Indian.

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## Awesome

It's not funny. Kill your mother, father, brother, sister, daughter, son and then make jokes about their death first, then make fun of Kashmir's plight.

If you can't... Then don't belittle Kashmir either.

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## silent hill

dezi said:


> Don't forget ... An 8 year old Kashmiri is also an Indian.



killed by a ruthless indian army, bunch of thugs

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## silent hill

toppys said:


> The freedom US gives will be full freedom for kashmir. That is good for pakistan will be cut smaller again..
> Loosing an arm for the enemys one finger is not a great option



but its not pakistani kashmir the one, receiving genocide from pak army??


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## Awesome

dezi said:


> Don't forget ... An 8 year old Kashmiri is also an Indian.


Hmmm he's not, not in my books, not for Kashmiris. Indians like to pretend and live in this make belief. 

But the truth is, you kill Kashmiris because you know they spit on this idea of joining India.

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## silent hill

karan.1970 said:


> They may make a stopover in Pakistan on their way to Kashmir. Eh??



and how did u guess tht??


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## brahmastra

Asim Aquil said:


> Hmmm he's not, not in my books, not for Kashmiris. Indians like to pretend and live in this make belief.
> 
> But the truth is, you kill Kashmiris because you know they spit on this idea of joining India.



Kashmiri spit more on idea of joining Pakistan then they spit on idea of joining India.

Check the polls done by anyone.

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## Awesome

brahmastra said:


> Kashmiri spit more on idea of joining Pakistan then they spit on idea of joining India.
> 
> Check the polls done by anyone.


Open your eyes and see the slaps, kicks and spits being thrown at the core representative of the Indian nation state - The Indian security forces.

Pakistan has never forced them to join Pakistan and is fighting for their right to choose. Read the polls again, they love to have their freedom to choose.

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## toppys

Asim Aquil said:


> Open your eyes and see the slaps, kicks and spits being thrown at the core representative of the Indian nation state - The Indian security forces.
> 
> Pakistan has never forced them to join Pakistan and is fighting for their right to choose. Read the polls again, they love to have their freedom to choose.



except sending force to kashmir in 1947 annexing half of kashmir, yes they never force


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## Awesome

toppys said:


> except sending force to kashmir in 1947 annexing half of kashmir, yes they never force


Correction, we only sent our forces once India started invading Kashmir. We prevented half of Kashmir to be usurped by India and we will give up our area too, to give that choice to Kashmiris if they choose to go away from us.

We are that confident about their choice, are you? If you're confident then man up and let them choose.

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## bandit

Asim Aquil said:


> Open your eyes and see the slaps, kicks and spits being thrown at the core representative of the Indian nation state - The Indian security forces.
> 
> Pakistan has never forced them to join Pakistan and is fighting for their right to choose. Read the polls again, they love to have their freedom to choose.



Pakistan is fighting for their right to choose, but they can only choose Pakistan, isn't that right.

Everybody from the Pakistan government and the Pakistan army to the common man on the street wants Kashmir to be part of Pakistan. The right to choose is just a patent lie to support the Kashmiri insurgents across the borders under the garb of 'Morals'.

Kashmiris understand that, thats why the majority isnt voting for Pakistan, you could open your eyes to that buddy.

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## RamGorur

Asim Aquil said:


> Open your eyes and see the slaps, kicks and spits being thrown at the core representative of the Indian nation state - The Indian security forces.
> 
> Pakistan has never forced them to join Pakistan and is fighting for their right to choose. Read the polls again, they love to have their freedom to choose.


An excerpt from PeacePolls.org



> *No one wants to &#8216;Join Pakistan&#8217;. Even 71&#37; of Muslims consider this option &#8216;unacceptable&#8217; (69% in the Kashmir Valley). They could have chosen &#8216;tolerable&#8217; but they didn&#8217;t.* Although Hindus and Buddhists want to &#8216;Join India&#8217; 49% of Muslims (63% in the Kashmir Valley) do not so this option does not seem to work either. But the UN resolutions for a plebiscite  are limited to these two options &#8211; India or Pakistan. *Clearly the Muslims of J & K do not understand this issue or have been mislead. What they want is &#8216;Full Independence&#8217; and that is not presently on offer.* (from '_Peace in Kashmir - Myth and Reality_'; pg-15)



Our eyes are open. What about yours?

Now there will be a deluge of images of Pakistani flag in Kashmir.

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## NWO

bandit said:


> Pakistan is fighting for their right to choose, but they can only choose Pakistan, isn't that right.
> 
> Everybody from the Pakistan government and the Pakistan army to the common man on the street wants Kashmir to be part of Pakistan. The right to choose is just a patent lie to support the Kashmiri insurgents across the borders under the garb of 'Morals'.
> 
> Kashmiris understand that, thats why the majority isnt voting for Pakistan, you could open your eyes to that buddy.


Well, we are willing to let them vote. Why aren't you? We know that they are could easily become independent, and are willing to allow that. If we don't, we'll have the world to answer to.

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## bandit

Asim Aquil said:


> Correction, we only sent our forces once India started invading Kashmir. We prevented half of Kashmir to be usurped by India and we will give up our area too, to give that choice to Kashmiris if they choose to go away from us.
> 
> 
> 
> We are that confident about their choice, are you? If you're confident then man up and let them choose.



Correction, you sent the tribesmen, armed and supported by the Government, you had no legal right to be in Kashmir, you still don't. 

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Kashmir: The origins of the dispute


> In October 1947, Pashtun tribesmen from Pakistan's North-West Frontier Province invaded Kashmir.
> 
> There had been persistent reports of communal violence against Muslims in the state and,* supported by the Pakistani Government, they were eager to precipitate its accession to Pakistan. *
> 
> 
> Mountbatten favoured Kashmir's temporary accession to India
> Troubled by the increasing deterioration in law and order and by earlier raids, culminating in the invasion of the tribesmen, the ruler, Maharaja Hari Singh, requested armed assistance from India.
> 
> The then Governor-General, Lord Mountbatten, believed the developing situation would be less explosive if the state were to accede to India, on the understanding that this would only be temporary prior to "a referendum, plebiscite, election".

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## bandit

NWO said:


> Well, we are willing to let them vote. Why aren't you? We know that they are could easily* become independent, and are willing to allow that*. If we don't, we'll have the world to answer to.



Your country's official policy is for Kashmir to join Pakistan , your army commanders are on record demanding Kashmir from US.
Who are you trying to fool?

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## RamGorur

Asim Aquil said:


> Correction, we only sent our forces once India started invading Kashmir. We prevented half of Kashmir to be usurped by India...


Lets buy that snake oil for a moment. Now, under which international law was Pakistan entitled to cross the international border of Kashmir? 


> ...and we will give up our area too, to give that choice to Kashmiris if they choose to go away from us.


Some more snake oil.

' _*No person or political party in Azad Jammu and Kashmir shall be permitted to propagate against, or take part in activities prejudicial or detrimental to, the ideology of the State&#8217;s accession to Pakistan*._ '

- AJK Interim Constitution Act, 1974; sec-7(2)



> We are that confident about their choice, are you? If you're confident then man up and let them choose.


Yes, you are so confident that by law you don't allow them have any political aspiration other than the one vetted by Islamabad; not even the one vetted by UN - right to chose India.

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## TalhaBlazeDigiTel

Inna Lillah Hi Wa Inna Ilayhi Rajioon...

Such acts of brutality become a norm when the foundations of power are essentially based upon corruption and oppression. The Indians are doing what they are supposed to do.

Whatsoever is happening today in Indian held Kashmir and all other occupied Muslim lands is only telling us one thing:

We as an "umma" really need to ponder upon our acts and our state of unity. A ground reality is that today we are a scattered bunch of sticks being broken by whoever wants to break them and whenever. Even an alpha lion is prone to danger of death when confronting a pack of hyenas alone. 

Moreover, most of us have lost hope in ourselves and thus corrupted our faith. Whereas our "deen" is nothing more than purity in belief in Allah (swt). We may strongly say no to it by saying we believe in Allah but unless we correct our state of belief with utmost sincerity and real understanding and prove our faith with our acts, this situation of disparity will never change.

This will keep on happening until we put our act together, believe that not USA or any other so called super power is our "Rab" but Allah is. The day we start to believe right, will be the day our mothers will automatically start giving births to Khalid bin Walids, Salahuddins, Muhammad bin Qasim, Tariq bin Ziyad, Muhammad Iqbals and Muhammad Ali Jinnahs and world will again see that justice is truly served. InshaAllah!


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## Tuahaa

bandit said:


> Correction, you sent the tribesmen, armed and supported by the Government, you had no legal right to be in Kashmir, you still don't.
> 
> BBC NEWS | South Asia | Kashmir: The origins of the dispute



Perhaps you need to be reminded of the terms of the two state solution.

Muslim Majority = Pakistan
Hindu Majority = India

Kashmir is the former, it should have gone to Pakistan. Now, when Kashmir is free (no doubt it will), we will give Kashmiris the right to choose if they want their own state or not. And guess what? They will be hostile towards India and the deeds of the Indian army will be written in blood in their history books.

Come on, think for a second- the actions of the Indian army aren't important (who cares what happens nowadays? Strong bully the weak) but their consequences are.

However, I feel it is too late.


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## Tuahaa

bandit said:


> Your country's official policy is for Kashmir to join Pakistan , your army commanders are on record demanding Kashmir from US.
> Who are you trying to fool?





Look: We don't care if they join or not. They will always be hostile towards India, and atleast a friendly nation towards us. Infact, I think it is better that they get their own country because what happens if Pakistan can't manage them? Then they'll get angrier.


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## bandit

Tuahaa said:


> Perhaps you need to be reminded of the terms of the two state solution.
> 
> Muslim Majority = Pakistan
> Hindu Majority = India
> 
> Kashmir is the former, it should have gone to Pakistan. Now, when Kashmir is free (no doubt it will), we will give Kashmiris the right to choose if they want their own state or not. And guess what? They will be hostile towards India and the deeds of the Indian army will be written in blood in their history books.
> 
> Come on, think for a second- the actions of the Indian army aren't important (who cares what happens nowadays? Strong bully the weak) but their consequences are.
> 
> However, I feel it is too late.



I think you need to be taught some history again, and this time not from Pakistani text books.

Muslim majority rule applied to* British India*, and not to *Princely States* like Kashmir.

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## Tuahaa

bandit said:


> I think you need to be taught some history again, and this time not from Pakistani text books.
> 
> Muslim majority rule applied to* British India*, and not to *Princely States* like Kashmir.



Then what exactly happened to Junagadh? Hindu majority, Muslim ruler, goes to India even though the ruler wanted to be with Pakistan. Kashmir, however, was muslim majority, hindu ruler, and it still went to India.

I am aware of the situation- and I know that a lot of hypocrisy is involved.


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## LaBong

Why you people keep blaming the Army? Not a single death has been cause by army but Kashmir Police and CRPF.

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## toppys

Tuahaa said:


> Perhaps you need to be reminded of the terms of the two state solution.
> 
> Muslim Majority = Pakistan
> Hindu Majority = India
> 
> Kashmir is the former, it should have gone to Pakistan. Now, when Kashmir is free (no doubt it will), we will give Kashmiris the right to choose if they want their own state or not. And guess what? They will be hostile towards India and the deeds of the Indian army will be written in blood in their history books.
> 
> Come on, think for a second- the actions of the Indian army aren't important (who cares what happens nowadays? Strong bully the weak) but their consequences are.
> 
> However, I feel it is too late.



when kashmir is free u will give kashmiris right to choose, now that is a new defenition of freedom..


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## Omar1984

brahmastra said:


> Kashmiri spit more on idea of joining Pakistan then they spit on idea of joining India.
> 
> Check the polls done by anyone.



When was the last time was there a protest in Kashmir against Pakistan?

When was the last time a Kashmiri protester was shot dead in Azad Kashmir by Pakistani police/troops?

When was the last time any Kashmiri protester was waving your tricolor indian flag? (waving it, not burning it)


You can read all the polls done by indians, realities on ground tell you something totally different from your biased indian polls.

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## Tuahaa

Exactly... actions speak louder than words...


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## Urbanized Greyhound

An article which reflects the sentiments of Indians in general over the Kashmir issue......

The colour of 'Azaadi' cannot be green or saffron
The Pandits of the Kashmir valley, currently in exile, the Dogras and Muslims of Jammu, the Buddhists of Ladakh, the Shias and Gujjars in different parts of the state have never been part of any Azaadi movement, let alone any Islamic Azaadi. 
They, in fact, are fairly clear that they want greater integration with a secular India, let alone any loosening of ties. In fact, the greater the cry for Azaadi, the greater is the desire for integration in Jammu and Ladhakh.
So, what does Azaadi mean for them? It means the continued domination of valley politics and politicians over their affairs. It means the continued neglect of their areas, witnessed during the last 63 years. And, if Azaadi is Islamic, it means further discrimination and insecurity. 
Finally and perhaps crucially, the demand for Azaadi if understood as freedom from India is clearly unacceptable to the India state. No government of India can accept the demand for Azaadi over the needs of atoot ang. The people of India would never spare such a government, whatever its shape and hue and whatever its majority. 
So where does this leave the Azaadi debate? 
The example of the 'raiders' in 1947 is clear proof that an Azaad or 'independent' Kashmir would not be able to survive or preserve its independence. Even Gilgit, which overthrew the Maharaja's rule on November 1, 1947 and declared itself independent, could remain so only for less than three weeks before Pakistan took control of the territory.
The colour of Azaadi cannot be green. The minorities would not accept it and it would mean the de-linking of Jammu and Ladakh from the valley.Similarly, the colour of Azaadi cannot be saffron. The majority would not accept it. Only under the tiranga, a secular India, can the true essence of Kashmir flourish and prosper. It is here that their distinct cultural and ethnic identity would be preserved and strengthened. 
Azaadi, too, cannot be accession to Pakistan. Barring a few die-hard votaries, no one in his right mind would think of joining Pakistan. Not only is there distrust of the Punjabi-Pathan elements, there is a realisation that Kashmir's cultural identity would have no chance of survival in a failing and increasingly Talibanised Pakistan. Azaadi, therefore, has to be freedom from Pakistan, once and for all and freedom to enjoy what the other citizens of India take for granted.
But, there has to be a limit to what the Kashmiris think they can extract from India in the garb of Azaadi. Bargaining for concessions is a democratic right that all Indians enjoy, no less the Kashmiri. But where bargaining is perceived as blackmailing, and especially if it has an international dimension, then what gets compromised is the freedom to enjoy what others in India enjoy. It also undercuts support that other civil society members and political parties in India can offer. 
At the same time, the government of India needs to treat the cry of Azaadi as a cry for justice, a cry to undo past wrongs, and above all, a cry to give the Kashmiris a stake and pride in India, rather than bullets and doles, an assurance that their identity would be as secure in India as is say the Tamil identity or the Marathi identity or the Bengali identity. 
Today, clearly, the Kashmiris don't perceive this to be the case. Hence, the cry for Azaadi for want of another slogan that can penetrate the ear plugs worn by the Indian leadership.

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## Fireurimagination

NWO said:


> Well, we are willing to let them vote. Why aren't you? We know that they are could easily become independent, and are willing to allow that. If we don't, we'll have the world to answer to.



So please please please let them vote, hold a referendum and give them azadi, it has been 60+ years now, what is stopping you, huh?

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## VermillionTilak

Asim Aquil said:


> Hmmm he's not, not in my books, not for Kashmiris. Indians like to pretend and live in this make belief.
> 
> But the truth is, you kill Kashmiris because you know they spit on this idea of joining India.





Let it be in your own book, and even in the Kashmiri mindset. But Kashmir will, I repeat will ALWAYS be with India whether they like it or not. As maps still show Kashmir part of India, that 8 year old boy is still an Indian citizen.

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## GreenStar

> that 8 year old boy is still an Indian citizen.



Then why are you not condemning this killing, why are you not demanding questions to your goverement, in why your security forces are failing in there duty. Honestly what is the point in having a huge GDP when you can't even train your forces, who seem to have poor equipment....pity.

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## VermillionTilak

GreenStar said:


> Then why are you not condemning this killing, why are you not demanding questions to your goverement, in why your security forces are failing in there duty. Honestly what is the point in having a huge GDP when you can't even train your forces, who seem to have poor equipment....pity.



Do you want me to go to India and talk to the Indian government because of this killing? Because I'll go right now and talk to them 

I never said it was the right thing for the security forces to do, in fact I wish to see justice for the boy and his family. 

Besides they were poorly trained forces with poor equipment as you speak of. How could've the child been killed?

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## GreenStar

> But Kashmir will, I repeat will ALWAYS be with India whether they like it or not.



From the above statement, clearly India is not quite democratic, but is run on dictatorship. By the way I believe in a theory called what goes around, comes around. My meaning is India is oppressing the Kashmiri people, but there will be a time when the same might happen to India.


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## GreenStar

> Do you want me to go to India and talk to the Indian government because of this killing? Because I'll go right now and talk to them



Well these killing's which are conducted by your Security forces, are not obviously being condemned by ordinary Indians, because if that was a case then there would be protests in India. However obvioulsy you lot don't give a sh!


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## VermillionTilak

GreenStar said:


> Well these killing's which are conducted by your Security forces, are not obviously being condemned by ordinary Indians, because if that was a case then there would be protests in India. However obvioulsy you lot don't give a sh!



If they were Hindus, I wouldn't see Pakistanis making a big deal out of it. 
There is nothing more in my power but to say that I do in fact condem the killing.

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## Hulk

Protest or no protest. Pakistan's Kashmir was invaded and never asked about their choice.

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## Tuahaa

indianrabbit said:


> Protest or no protest. Pakistan's Kashmir was invaded and never asked about their choice.



But they're content... if it wasn't an 'invasion', then they'll all be there and Indian army will gun more of them down.


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## Spring Onion

*Please all civilised souls here join hands against Indian terrorism against innocent Kashmiris*

On Saturday September 25, 2010 at 12:00 PM Kashmiris are gathering in front of The Consulate General of United States of America at 360 University Avenue, Toronto, Ontario M5G 1S4 Canada against the murder of more than 109 innocent civilians by the Indian army and to implement United Nations resolutions. 


Along with the ongoing curfew, the Indian government is giving collective punishment to all Kashmiris because they are pursuing their rights to self determination. Children are not receiving sufficient rations for survival and even emergency services such as ambulances and doctors are inaccessible. Any medical staff or media personnel arriving to fulfill their occupational duties are beaten by the Indian forces in order to discourage their bravery. Most protesting civilians the majority of which are children, women and teenagers have been killed by the police, Indian army and paramilitary forces.


Since all kinds of draconian laws including the PSA, AFSPA, Disturbed areas act etc are in effect here, there is lack of accountability and immunity for the forces to perpetuate these crimes. 



Anybody sympathetic towards the Kashmiris and willing to contribute their voice against cruelty please arrive at the above address.


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## Hulk

Tuahaa said:


> But they're content... if it wasn't an 'invasion', then they'll all be there and Indian army will gun more of them down.



Content or not invasion is invasion. 
They never had problem with India before 1989. Also only habitual protesters of 4 districts(only Muslims not even 100%) are protesting.

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## Hulk

Ontopic these are accidental deaths, no one killed 8 year old with intention of doing it. Only naive people fall for such news spread only with intention to create hatred against India. Clearly they are successful.

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## IndianArmy

Have a Question.....Was Little Sameer Sent to Play or Shout Anti India Slogans???
His Parents Should have been responsible even If the govt of Kashmir Is Not, Its Too early for a Child Who has Just Entered his Pre teen stages to Go Out there and Protest....

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## kingdurgaking

TechLahore said:


> This is a remarkable suggestion. But because they are Kashmiri and have an inalienable, God-given right to their own land, they will take a per-capita portion of the land with them too. Hold such a referendum and I think the GoP would be open to supporting it. If 50% of Kashmiris presently under Indian control want to join Pakistan, half of IoK comes with them. If all of them do, then...



Sir jee... it is not all in the valley who are revolting.... a nth of youth who are brainwashed are .. for this we cant take the problem has a universal problem because it is not a genocide but a small useless civil war.. so GoP which is raising the problem to UN/US should have some soft corners to those youths and push them to the plan as i have stated earlier... every year youths who are brainwashed in kashmir will be exported from India by GoP and finally one fine day all who are sensible will live in Kashmir(As you know every one with better IQ dont like to have people with poor IQ around us) and the problem will be solved automatically... So neither the world nor GoP have to worry about kashmir ... hence the target of both Governments solving the Kashmir problem will be accomplished...
and GoP which is actually not interested on land  but only for the people would be congratulated by the whole world for its fantastic problem solving capability

Accepted it is a time consuming process


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## Tuahaa

I know right... peace and freedom is only allowed for adults... children can get shot for all we care!


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## Hulk

Dude only gullible people like u believe in all this trash. When CRPF is not even firing at stone pelters where they have a reason to fire, who believes in this trash.

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## kingdurgaking

NWO said:


> AJK functions pretty much as its own state right now, so if they wanted full independence, they can have it.



AJK is independent ?? .. sirjee ... the word independence is just a word for them... AJK is now like a dark world.. The people there if given an opportunity to see the real world the situation will be different.. Poor people living there are converted to terrorist in the pretext of religion ... holy quran is thought to them in a different way than the real way... even this small thing is being twisted by GoP think about other complex functioning.. do you call this Freedom???

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## koolguy786

kingdurgaking said:


> AJK is independent ?? .. sirjee ... the word* independence* is just a word for them... AJK is now like a dark world.. The people there if given an opportunity to see the real world the situation will be different.. Poor people living there are converted to terrorist in the pretext of religion ... holy quran is thought to them in a different way than the real way... even this small thing is being twisted by GoP think about other complex functioning.. do you call this Freedom???



*Independent for namesake!*


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## doctor_who

*wrong place wrong time. 

he shouldn't have been there, if someone is walking on train track he shouldnt be complaining about being run over.*


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## KS

BENNY said:


> *"We want an opportunity to move ahead. You also see that we are not allowed to move ahead. When we protest, there is firing which is not the case in other states," *he added.



This is just one example of how the Kashmiri youth are being constantly misled by the separatists for their vested interests.

In every part,I repeat,In Every part of India when a protest turns violent and degenerates into arson shoot at sight orders are given and 144 (curfew) is imposed.

Even in recent times there has been many examples of police shooting live bullets (not rubber ones like in Kashmir) to disperse the crowd.

Face it ppl,we are a third world country and policing is not that effective and if ppl violate curfew orders such things will happen and no use in blaming the police after that. 





BENNY said:


> "When you fire on us, don't you feel the pain? When you cut us, when you fire on Kashmiris?" he asked.



Oh comon - How can we ever feel tha pain if they dont consider themselves as Indians in the first place and want secession.

Either they should consider themselves as Indians first or man up to accept the losses in the fight for freedom.


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## Tuahaa

doctor_who said:


> *wrong place wrong time.
> 
> he shouldn't have been there, if someone is walking on train track he shouldnt be complaining about being run over.*



Not the same situation. Trains moving are okay, troops shooting at civilians is not.


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## su-47

BENNY said:


> *When you fire on us, don't you feel the pain: Kashmiri youths*
> 
> Home Minister P Chidambaram today faced some tough questions from Kashmiri youth who asked him whether he felt no pain when security forces fired on peaceful protestors and told him that unemployment was the major reason for unrest in the state. Chidambaram, who is leading an all-party delegation to Jammu and Kashmir, interacted with local youth in Tangmarg.
> 
> *"The issue of Kashmir is a genuine issue. Many leaders come here and go but do not listen to the problems of the Kashmiri youth. The Kashmiri youth are facing unemployment,*" a local youth told Chidambaram.
> 
> He added that though the youth wanted to progress, they were not allowed to do so.
> 
> *"We want an opportunity to move ahead. You also see that we are not allowed to move ahead. When we protest, there is firing which is not the case in other states," *he added.
> 
> A school had been burned down here on Eid last Saturday. Five people were killed in firing during protests.
> 
> During the interaction with Chidambaram today, another young man posed him a few candid questions. He asked the Home Minister why even peaceful protestors were fired upon by the security forces in the valley.
> 
> "When you fire on us, don't you feel the pain? When you cut us, when you fire on Kashmiris?" he asked.
> 
> Chidambaram gave the group of youngsters a patient hearing and appeared to sympathise with them.
> 
> Earlier, the all-party delegation faced angry mobs when they visited a hospital where some of the injured were undergoing treatment.
> 
> 
> When you fire on us, don't you feel the pain: Kashmiri youths - Hindustan Times



Its like punishing your children when they are naughty. Its not that we wish to do so, but its something we are forced to do, sometimes for their good. 

If the protests are not stopped, they will burn down Kashmir. The school that was burned down, was that done by the rioters or by the police? The Kashmiris should understand that violent protest can only be dealt with by violence. Under Indian democracy, they are free to protest, but under no circumstance are they allowed to destroy public or private property, or hurt people. 

as for jobs and employment, how many government schemes had to be abandoned due to riots and protests? how can business flourish when there is unrest. stop fighting, start building. then u will see India's economic growth flow into Kashmir.

The answer to the title thread is a big YES. It hurts. Its not something we ever wanted to do.


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## Tuahaa

At above-

This does not apply to a neglected child.


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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> *When you fire on us, don't you feel the pain: Kashmiri youths*
> 
> Home Minister P Chidambaram today faced some tough questions from Kashmiri youth who asked him whether he felt no pain when security forces fired on peaceful protestors and told him that unemployment was the major reason for unrest in the state. Chidambaram, who is leading an all-party delegation to Jammu and Kashmir, interacted with local youth in Tangmarg.
> 
> *"The issue of Kashmir is a genuine issue. Many leaders come here and go but do not listen to the problems of the Kashmiri youth. The Kashmiri youth are facing unemployment,*" a local youth told Chidambaram.
> 
> He added that though the youth wanted to progress, they were not allowed to do so.
> 
> *"We want an opportunity to move ahead. You also see that we are not allowed to move ahead. When we protest, there is firing which is not the case in other states," *he added.
> 
> A school had been burned down here on Eid last Saturday. Five people were killed in firing during protests.
> 
> During the interaction with Chidambaram today, another young man posed him a few candid questions. He asked the Home Minister why even peaceful protestors were fired upon by the security forces in the valley.
> 
> "When you fire on us, don't you feel the pain? When you cut us, when you fire on Kashmiris?" he asked.
> 
> Chidambaram gave the group of youngsters a patient hearing and appeared to sympathise with them.
> 
> Earlier, the all-party delegation faced angry mobs when they visited a hospital where some of the injured were undergoing treatment.
> 
> 
> When you fire on us, don't you feel the pain: Kashmiri youths - Hindustan Times



Hooo i dont know there protest where peaceful. .. throwing stones at police... burning schools.. are these called peaceful protest... if the same youths home is hurdled with stone.. doesnt he come out running with a stick if possible a gun???


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## laiqs@mi

Oh comon - How can we ever feel tha pain if they dont consider themselves as Indians in the first place and want secession.

Either they should consider themselves as Indians first or man up to accept the losses in the fight for freedom.[/QUOTE]

 this is tipical indian mantality 
if they dont consider them selves as indian they are not human???????
you must be ashamed at you statment.


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## saurabh

This interaction should have happened long ago. Why do our politicians only dig the well when the house is burning. Still, better late than never.


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## doctor_who

he is more like a time bomb. waiting to explode.

*why was he there ? such a place kids have no role to play. his mind is changed at this age - so much hate inserted in his head. *


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## toppys

IndianArmy said:


> Have a Question.....Was Little Sameer Sent to Play or Shout Anti India Slogans???
> His Parents Should have been responsible even If the govt of Kashmir Is Not, Its Too early for a Child Who has Just Entered his Pre teen stages to Go Out there and Protest....



I think pakistan police garland the children who abuse them. There are several videos of such garlanding. That is why they are so incensed. If he is 8 year old boy he has to do what 8 year old boy does. THere was one video in this chain which was deleted where it shows how pakistani army garlands 8 year old children when they did wrong. Now that was deleted as it did not have "any relevance to the topic" or "did not have an answer". India and pakistan are third world countries with third world policing. There is no difference in treatment of citizens by either countrys force. Kashmir or kerala or karachi, if u go call police names instead of studying at home they will beat ur ***.
Dont cry kashmiri kashmiri sensationalism on it. Ofcourse as a good police they should not have done that. But where do u find good police , nowhere in india or pakistan.


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## Tuahaa

If hate was inserted in his head, why did he come out to play? I thought he hated Indian soldiers and feared them?


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## hecj

Jammu, Sep 24 (PTI) Militant outfit Lasker-e-Toiba (LeT) plans to trigger blasts using trained women terrorists who will intermingle with protesters to carry out attacks as part of a strategy to intensify violence in Kashmir Valley, according to intelligence intercepts. "It has come to the notice of the intelligence agencies through various inputs received that terrorists belonging to LeT are likely to intermingle with the protesters," a brief report of the Army said today.

According to inputs received, LeT operatives have sought permission from their handlers across the border to lob grenades or explode IEDs during demonstrations to trigger large scale casualties and incite protesters to resort to violence, it said. Such attacks are most likely to be carried out in close proximity to camps and posts of security forces so as to ensure that they face the brunt of the violence and are forced to retaliate.

"This is likely to set in motion a chain of events leading to high rate of casualties," the report said. The report said that highly trained women terrorists, who are experts in handling of explosives, are likely to be at the forefront of this new strategy aimed at upping the ante by exponentially increasing the intensity of violence and consequently the number of casualties.

The local operatives and Over Ground Workers (OGWs) have also been instructed to motivate the economically weaker sections of the populace including women to join the protests, it said. Kashmir Valley has been in grip of violent protests since June 11 when a 17-year-old boy was killed after he was hit by a tear gas shell during clashes at Rajouri Kadal in Srinagar city.


LeT planning to use women ultras to trigger violence: report - Yahoo! India News


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## hecj

this guy says we have mujahid in india


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## Champak

*NO MERCY...NO REMORSE. JUST BLOODY KILL THEM!...IN COLD-BLOOD*


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## Champak

what is 'askari kayadat'?


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## mjnaushad

Champak said:


> what is 'askari kayadat'?


Armed Leadership....

here it means that those leaders who are fighting against Indian army with arms...

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## Kinetic

lol OIC talking about rights!!!! I thought they have a different definition of 'people's rights'!

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## hecj

i think oic have given lollipop to pakistan,india ned not to worried abt it.


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## Champak

*Why should India listen to an organisation which refused to grant us membership even when we have among the world's largest muslim populations? We meet the very founding principle of OIC yet we were not admitted.

Such hypocrites are best ignored and shown the middle finger!

First give us membership of OIC and then we might even think about giving heed to OIC's advice!*


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## EjazR

That's interesting, because if this is true, it probably explains why Geelani and others called off the protests to Army camps. The intelligence agencies might have shared these intercepts with them to show what can happen.

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## hecj

remember isi have budget of 5 billion dollars,and border is too long,as mentioned by the person in the video


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## airuah

aaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwww ohhhh something is hapenning...let me humor about it...so my friend?can be happy, "india must do that ,india must do this..." .......

now with done......"i think we should increase our partnership with india in project/fields 1,2,3,4,5,6,7......."


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## mjnaushad

hecj said:


> remember isi have budget of 5 billion dollars,and border is too long,as mentioned by the person in the video


What do you want to say??? Please explain....

What does ISI budget have to do with this...??


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## hecj

mjnaushad said:


> What do you want to say??? Please explain....
> 
> What does ISI budget have to do with this...??



i am very ashamed that u cant get the point frm this.isi played an important role during soviet war and it is number one alsoP


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## mjnaushad

hecj said:


> i am very ashamed that u cant get the point frm this.isi played an important role during soviet war and it is number one alsoP


Still didn't get it.....

Got anything speak openly otherwise STFU .....And please if its again those lame accusation on ISI come with solid proof.....


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## TATA

*Plz, don't go by a Pakistani newspaper reports

Also, OIC majority of members have history of brutal human right violations.*

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## Spring Onion

hecj said:


> remember isi have budget of 5 billion dollars:,and border is too long,as mentioned by the person in the video



5b is a big money to afford Always Ultra for Indian army or we can replace it with another brand


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## indiaworldpower

So which game was this eight year old kashmiri playing? Did the game included throwing stones on the security forces and army along with their uncles and older brothers?

Kashmiri moms, please keep your kids in control. Tell them not to follow what Gelani uncle says. He always talks about voilence including stone throwing, dharna at lal chauk. Kashmiri dads, please send your kids to school and try to get yourself some job and take care of your family. There is no difference for a common family like yours, if you stay with India or Pakistan. Gelani and other hurriyat leaders are just using you and your family to do their dirty work.

Ask Gelani uncle and other hurriyat leaders about their kids. Why they never paticipate in stone throwing game? When was the last time they themselves were hit by police and army? Where do they go when security forces start charging? Where their assets comes from?

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## RollingStones

kingdurgaking said:


> AJK is independent ?? .. sirjee ... the word independence is just a word for them... AJK is now like a dark world.. The people there if given an opportunity to see the real world the situation will be different.. Poor people living there are converted to terrorist in the pretext of religion ... holy quran is thought to them in a different way than the real way... even this small thing is being twisted by GoP think about other complex functioning.. do you call this Freedom???



Besides the independence question, the correct question to ask is: have the current federations of India and Pakistan worked for its constituents? The answer is no. Only a minority (including those on this forum) are benefiting. The real focus should be on de-federating the entire region and assembling things in a way that works better economically, health wise etc. for everyone. Religion and politics based on religion/caste should be abolished asap.


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## Storm Force

Kashmir Solution according to USA is the LOC. 

Wat more do pakistanis expect India,s new ally to say. 

USA will side with status quo at best and worst tell pakistan to sort out the Terror War going on at home first.

Pakistan cant rely on USA to help over India nowadays


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## Storm Force

Okay.

I,m sure the Indians will now just hand over the Keys


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## Indian Infantry

The same could be said of Pakistan. What I fail to grasp is just how does a small boy expect a larger one to return him his bicycle when he is constantly punching, pulling hair, throwing tantrums etc., in short merely adding to the frustration and anger of the larger one who knowing how well the boy is capable of handling his belongings is also morally against handing over his bicycle as he realizes that the smaller one is incapable of handling his possessions responsibly.

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## hecj

*Kashmir is internal matter of India: SM Krishna*

New York, Sep 23: External Affairs Minister SM Krishna has asked Pakistan to end its illegal occupation of some parts of the state before advising New Delhi.

Buzz up!
Krishna who on a 10-day visit to attend the annual UN General Assembly meeting said "Kashmir is an internal matter of India."


Pointing out that Pakistan is in "illegal occupation of some parts of Jammu Kashmir", Krishna said, "it is desirable that they vacate that and then start advising India as to how to go about doing things in Kashmir."

"We have taken certain actions in terms of assisting what needs to be done in Kashmir. An all party delegation has just gone back to Delhi and they have had wide ranging discussions across the board from all shades of opinion.

"Indian government is fully conscious of its responsibilities. Institutional and individual mechanism will be put in place so that the genuine grievances of Kashmir and the people of Kashmir will be addressed squarely and directly," Krishna told a TV news channel.


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## NWO

Indian Infantry said:


> The same could be said of Pakistan. What I fail to grasp is just how does a small boy expect a larger one to return him his bicycle when he is constantly punching, pulling hair, throwing tantrums etc., in short merely adding to the frustration and anger of the larger one who knowing how well the boy is capable of handling his belongings is also morally against handing over his bicycle as he realizes that the smaller one is incapable of handling his possessions responsibly.


Maybe the older boy should stop burning, twisting and melting the bicycle? Your comment is just asking for a flame thread. And I'm sure this will quickly become a flaming thread.


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## Illusive

Pakistan is trying so hard, now it wants to interfere in India's internal matters. Look what they did to ***, handed parts of it to China, GOP is incapable of handling its own country and it wants to try their hands in a complex issue like Kashmir, no body wanna interfere here then why blow the whistle.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ROFLCOPTER! at this precious thread.

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## mehru

Indian Infantry said:


> *The same could be said of Pakistan. What I fail to grasp is just how does a small boy expect a larger one to return him his bicycle when he is constantly punching, pulling hair, throwing tantrums etc., in short merely adding to the frustration and anger of the larger one who knowing how well the boy is capable of handling his belongings is also morally against handing over his bicycle as he realizes that the smaller one is incapable of handling his possessions responsibly.*




I don't like to feed trolls. I also try to avoid any Pak-Indo threads as they are only filled with hatred but i would like to advice you and all Indians that stop treating Pak as some younger brother of yours or a young boy. This is exactly the kind of attitude that irks us the most. You are nothing to us.

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## rikki

mehru said:


> I don't like to feed trolls. I also try to avoid any Pak-Indo threads as they are only filled with hatred but i would like to advice you and all Indians that stop treating Pak as some younger brother of yours or a young boy. This is exactly the kind of attitude that irks us the most. You are nothing to us.



you are nothing to us too


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## hecj

mehru said:


> I don't like to feed trolls. I also try to avoid any Pak-Indo threads as they are only filled with hatred but i would like to advice you and all Indians that stop treating Pak as some younger brother of yours or a young boy. This is exactly the kind of attitude that irks us the most. You are nothing to us.



you r right abt the nature of this kind of threads.no indian treat any pakistani as younger brother.i dont know how u got this?as mentioned by most of the members we are rivals,so no possibility of brotherhood etc.
and regarding to 


> You are nothing to us



ask this to ur army chief who says we r india centric.why he always say that we need to pay attention more at eastern border.rest u can understand


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## mehru

hecj said:


> you r right abt the nature of this kind of threads.no indian treat any pakistani as younger brother.i dont know how u got this?as mentioned by most of the members we are rivals,so no possibility of brotherhood etc.
> and regarding to
> ask this to ur army chief who says we r india centric.why he always say that we need to pay attention more at eastern border.rest u can understand



Yeah you guys have a lot of importance to us but only as a enemy. Nothing more. From that point of view, we are equally as important to Indians.
As for that younger brother treatment, believe me many Indians shared this sentiment with me.
I may also add here that younger brother treatment doesn't mean brotherhood but rather a small boy who is incapable of looking after himself and who needs immediate help from big bro.

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## mehru

rikki said:


> *you are nothing to us too*



Hmmmm........ then why you are on a Pakistani forum?

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## rikki

mehru said:


> Hmmmm........ then why you are on a Pakistani forum?


is this a pakistani forum

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## hecj

mehru said:


> Yeah you guys have a lot of importance to us but only as a enemy. Nothing more. From that point of view, we are equally as important to Indians.
> As for that younger brother treatment, believe me many Indians shared this sentiment with me.
> I may also add here that younger brother doesn't mean brotherhood rather a small boy who is incapable of looking after himself and who wants constant attention form big bro.



no mam...now our full focus is on our eastern border not on ur eastern border.



> I may also add here that younger brother doesn't mean brotherhood rather a small boy who is incapable of looking after himself and who wants constant attention form big bro



may be,but not necessary


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## mehru

rikki said:


> is this a pakistani forum



Good that you noticed. Now go back and sleep..


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## hecj

mehru said:


> Good that you noticed. Now go back and sleep..



[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[


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## SpArK

self delete...


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## hecj

BENNY said:


> Stop posting things which are kiddish..
> 
> Grow up u are not doing any good.
> She is one of the most neutral persons here. Stop it or do u want me to stop you???



wat happen to u??i m not asking for her personality in the forum.


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## Enigma

mehru said:


> I don't like to feed trolls. I also try to avoid any Pak-Indo threads as they are only filled with hatred but i would like to advice you and all Indians that stop treating Pak as some younger brother of yours or a young boy. This is exactly the kind of attitude that irks us the most. You are nothing to us.



count 1 to 10 u can get back to ur senses..

bohot jyada gussa achha nai hota.....


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## SpArK

hecj said:


> wat happen to u??i m not asking for her personality in the forum.



Dude, she is one of the few rare members who has never indulged in flame wars or blame games unlike others. 

i posted it so that people dont go offensive against her. I have been around the forum and has seen her appreciating whenever there is a postive thing. 

i will delete my post.. i think its a bit rash too.

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## Urbanized Greyhound

Pakistan is asking this with full knowledge that it will never happen....no government will dare to go against the sentiments of the people that way.......a diplomatic needle like this ....especially coming on the heels of the Chinese provocation is only going to spoil what scant chances there were of a reconciliation after Mumbai.....imho the only thing that the PA and ISI can do to improve relations now is not to tamper with the status quo....


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Storm Force said:


> Okay.
> 
> I,m sure the Indians will now just hand over the Keys



i think you should focus on Kashmiris and their own sentiment before talking about chaaby to Pakistan Nation.

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## WHF

MR Basit, the so called Org UN is a spine less one.It can only pass resolutions and that too one weaker ones.Heck when it comes to internal matters India cares none not USA nor EU....

Toh Basit sahib aap hindustaan se ye paigam apney mulk or waseer e azam ko de ki *""jiski laathi uski bhais""*..Kashmir chahiye toh pehle kashmir hamare haaton se cheeney ki haisiyat pe aao.


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## WHF

RollingStones said:


> Besides the independence question, the correct question to ask is: have the current federations of India and Pakistan worked for its constituents? The answer is no. Only a minority (including those on this forum) are benefiting. The real focus should be on de-federating the entire region and assembling things in a way that works better economically, health wise etc. for everyone. *Religion and politics based on religion/caste should be abolished asap*.



Oh comon donot sterio type us asians that way dear...
U guys talk of religion??
Then y is there so muss fuss abour a mosque near ground zero??
What was the reason behind, all the afro americans voting for Mr Obama?? 
Why are the asians being thrashed in white countries??


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

mehru said:


> Yeah you guys have a lot of importance to us but only as a enemy. Nothing more. From that point of view, *we are equally as important to Indians.*
> As for that younger brother treatment, believe me many Indians shared this sentiment with me.
> I may also add here that younger brother treatment doesn't mean brotherhood but rather a small boy who is incapable of looking after himself and who needs immediate help from big bro.



I don't mean to sound contemptuous,but that the bolded part is where you are wrong.

I will agree with you that Indian members here should refrain from terming Pakistan as the younger brother/son and other silly personifications.

*ontopic*
Even if by some miracle Pakistan ceases to use Kashmir as tool to exact their revenge for 1971,still Kashmir will be treated as an integral part of India.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

WHF said:


> MR Basit, the so called Org UN is a spine less one.It can only pass resolutions and that too one weaker ones.Heck when it comes to internal matters India cares none not USA nor EU....
> 
> Toh Basit sahib aap hindustaan se ye paigam apney mulk or waseer e azam ko de ki *""jiski laathi uski bhais""*..Kashmir chahiye toh pehle kashmir hamare haaton se cheeney ki *haisiyat *pe aao.



Dont talk abt hasiyat... it doesnt suite a nation withy more poverty,aids,prostitution and other ills then then african continent.

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## WHF

OIC ?? what does cutie cutie OIC want??ale ale raja beta ko kashmir chahiye??
Stmt against Human rights violation??Is this stmt for kashmiri muslims or for kashmiris??I have never seen any stmt in favour of 4 lakh pandits who are also as much kashmiri but unfortunately they were hindus..

and look who is advicing US turkey saudi heck even nigeria

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## DESERT FIGHTER

hecj said:


> i think oic have given *lollipop* to pakistan,india *ned* not to worried abt it.



Nice english...
looks like they have given a* lolli pop* to india.... a bitter one.

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## storm seeker

WHF said:


> MR Basit, the so called Org UN is a spine less one.It can only pass resolutions and that too one weaker ones.Heck when it comes to internal matters India cares none not USA nor EU....
> 
> Toh Basit sahib aap hindustaan se ye paigam apney mulk or waseer e azam ko de ki *""jiski laathi uski bhais""*..Kashmir chahiye toh pehle kashmir hamare haaton se cheeney ki haisiyat pe aao.


pakistan ko chaie k is senario ko use kare. hm ne international com ko sath milane gineva main bhi free kash camp lagaya tha bt thatr nt enf. hmari govt b actv nzr ari he .lkn masla hai k hmain apni sarhadon se ghafil nai hna. india is just like a scorpion yahan se isko chora to 2ri jaga se attack kardega ooper intelligence reports b khatre ki ghanti bja ri hain. so as v r in a crtcl pstin ourslvs so v r doin the best thing v can in prsnt snario


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## DESERT FIGHTER

WHF said:


> OIC ?? what does cutie cutie OIC want??*ale ale raja beta ko kashmir chahiye??*Stmt against Human rights violation??*Is this stmt for kashmiri muslims or for kashmiris??*I have never seen any stmt in favour of* 4 lakh pandits who are also as much kashmiri but unfortunately they were hindus..*
> 
> and look who is advicing US turkey saudi heck even nigeria



Actually combined they are ur PAPA not beta be it population,economy or militarily.
Wat does OIC stand for genius?
4 lac pundits any proof? and like 160000 martyred Kashmiris scores missing and women raped by indian terrorists...... how many pundits have been killed,raped or are missing?

Yes USA... u praise like a GOD these days.... Yes turkiye u talk abt alot these days.... Yes K.S.A which u indians r boasting these days... remember a thread tht indians opened today?

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## WHF

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Actually combined they are ur PAPA not beta be it population,economy or militarily.
> Wat does OIC stand for genius?
> 4 lac pundits any proof? and like *160000 martyred Kashmiris scores missing and women raped* by indian terrorists...... how many pundits have been killed,raped or are missing?
> 
> Yes USA... u praise like a GOD these days.... Yes turkiye u talk abt alot these days.... Yes K.S.A which u indians r boasting these days... remember a thread tht indians opened today?



160000 kashmiri dead any proof??any ways who cares u guys have started it and we are just ending it??

Combined??a very big question...No they are not combined.R they neutral?? No they are not neutral ..Heck their name itself suggests Organisation of the *Islamic* Conference, so right has an islamic org to poke in the affairs of a secular/hindu majotiry country??

India never questioned the brutal sharia laws of KSA ,we never asked the turks to stop the human rights violations on the Khurds,who the Fcuk are they to advice Us at all.

And dear oh dear donot boast of the economy or military of these islamic countries ..we have seen the military might of these countries against Israel, they were all combined still israel .....

and economy heck dont boast of the Oil driven economy of those nations ,they dont even have the knowledge of extracting thta Oil, all they can do is sit back at their luxirious palaces and watch western channels...

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## Omar1984

*So much bloodshed in Kashmir​*
"A Burning Paradise, Kashmir on the Edge  these single liners with images of hundreds of thousands of children and youth holding placards reading, We want freedom, Go back... children and teenagers engaged in ding-dong battles with troops, blood-soaked bodies on biers with thousands of wailers chanting pro-freedom slogans carrying them to the martyrs graveyards for burial have been beaming television screens for the past few months. 

These images are more than enough to tell the real Kashmir story to people in India in particular and world in general. At this point of time it will be difficult for me to say if the Indian intelligentsia would raise banners of revolt against New Delhi as the French intellectuals did in Paris forcing the government to sign the Evian Accords that ended the Algerian war. With religion and caste continuing to dominate Indian political discourse and major political parties surviving on religious bigotry it may take many more years for the people of India to know the truth about Kashmir and look at the problem dispassionately. But what torments me is the indifference of the global community, particularity the Muslim world, toward the human tragedy in Kashmir.

The ministerial meeting of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) Contact Group on Jammu and Kashmir as well as the annual coordination committee meeting of the OIC foreign ministers took place during the 65th annual session of UN General Assembly held in New York from Sept. 22 to 24. The Contact Group on Kashmir includes Pakistan, Iran, Niger, Saudi Arabia and Turkey. The meeting was held at a time when, in the words of a columnist in The Times of India, Kashmir was once again staring New Delhi in the face. It was held at a time when hundreds of thousands of demonstrators were filling the streets of Kashmirs cities in the words of Indian author Pankaj Mishra. 

The demonstrators are overwhelmingly young, many in their teens, and armed with nothing more lethal than stones. Yet the Indian state seems determined to strangle their voices as it did of the old one. Or as very rightly put by top Indian journalist Vinod Mehta, One would need a heart of stone not to be moved by the plight of the stone-pelters of Srinagar taking on the might of the Indian security forces  a David vs. Goliath fight. So far 103 youths, most of them children and teenagers, have been killed.

Since the birth of the dispute, Jammu and Kashmir has seen many turmoil, deaths and destruction but it is difficult to find anything like the situation obtaining since June 11, 2010. There is no precedent of the entire Kashmir Valley being converted into a cage, as reported by The Washington Post, for such a long period. The youth uprising in Kashmir has been getting unparalleled coverage in the Western media. Rarely in the past has the Kashmiri movement received such a sustained media attention. According to the New York Times (Aug. 13), the Kashmiri protests for a third consecutive year signal the failure of Indian efforts to win the assent of Kashmiris using just about any tool available: Money, elections and overwhelming force. It is for the first time in the history of Kashmir that even a state chief minister has gone on record to say publicly that the youth fighting on the streets were not demanding employment or economic package but a political settlement that reflects the wishes of the Kashmiri people.

Despite the public opinion in the West (even in India the public opinion for the first time seems to be concerned about Kashmir to an extent) why the world at large and Muslim countries in particular is maintaining criminal silence on the bloodbath taking place in the valley? Excepting one or two ritualistic statements by the secretary-general, the OIC has been witnessing the gory happenings in Kashmir as a mute spectator. 

The birth of the OIC was seen by many Muslim scholars as a manifestation of the Islamic renaissance as dreamt by people like Jamaluddin Afghani and Muhammad Abdu in Arabia. The organization undoubtedly provides the leaders of the Muslim nations around the world a common platform for intergovernmental dialogue and action. With all its inherent difficulties it does project a Muslim worldview. The organization has been articulating its views on Kashmir and these views are those of the Muslim world. The OIC for the past 20 years has been meeting on Kashmir. Like the United Nations this organization of 56 Muslim countries does not recognize the finality of the accession of the State of Jammu and Kashmir to the Union of India. It also believes that Indias noncooperation and the passage of time do not erode UN obligations. 

Time and again, the OIC has been reiterating that the Kashmiri right of self-determination is an inalienable right which has been acknowledged by UN Security Council resolutions. As such, it constitutes an obligation for all members of the United Nations, and in particular, the designated parties to the dispute, India and Pakistan. 

The OIC has not only constituted a Contact Group on Kashmir but also accorded an observer status to the All Parties Hurriyat Conference. It has also appointed a special envoy for Jammu and Kashmir. The perusal of the proceedings of this organization for the past two decades, more particularly after the APHC was accorded an observers status, are full of statements and resolutions in support of the right to self-determination for the people of Jammu and Kashmir. In 2008, Secretary-General Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu on the sidelines of the 11th OIC Summit held in Dakar, Senegal on March 14 described Kashmir as one of the oldest unresolved issues on the agenda of the UN and OIC. He also called upon the member states, especially those who have good relations with India, to effectively use their influence to improve the human rights conditions in Kashmir.

India never permitted the OIC special envoy to visit Kashmir. The envoy has been only visiting the Azad Kashmir and submitting its report to the organization. It obviously cannot be a complete report. The OIC Contact Group as well as the general body has been passing resolutions in support of resolving the Kashmir problem but New Delhi has been dismissing these resolutions as of no consequence even diplomatically.

The OIC Contact Group on Kashmir is not a diplomatic lightweight as it includes major and influential Muslim countries. India has very strong economic and political relations with these countries. The question then arises why New Delhi is not attaching any importance to the OIC resolutions on Kashmir.

The situation in Kashmir makes it imperative for the OIC to moot over this point and work out a strategy that will make New Delhi come out of its denial mood and restart composite dialogue with Pakistan for the resolution of the Kashmir dispute and other allied issues.

 Zahid G. Muhammad is a columnist and writer based in Srinagar. He can be contacted at: zahidgm@greaterkashmir.com


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## WHF

Asim Aquil said:


> Correction, we only sent our forces once India started invading Kashmir. We prevented half of Kashmir to be usurped by India and we will give up our area too, to give that choice to Kashmiris if they choose to go away from us.
> 
> We are that confident about their choice, are you? If you're confident then man up and let them choose.



Ru talking WRT kashmir or jammu and kashmir as a whole?? 
*Azadi ka matlab kya : La ilaha illa Allah*, i mean if this is aazadi why should hindu/buddhist majority areas be a part of freedom moment??

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## WHF

Instead of pleading the USA and the UN pakistan should have full faith on god and wage a war on india..If allah is on their side they will surely win..


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## DESERT FIGHTER

WHF said:


> 160000 kashmiri dead any proof??any ways who cares u guys have started it and we are just ending it??



Who started it? who promised a refrendum>? if u go by the head of princely state formula then Give us Junagarh and hyderabad..or give hyderabads Nizam to choose wat he likes.


> Combined??a very big question...No they are not combined.R they neutral?? No they are not neutral ..*Heck their name itself suggests Organisation of the Islamic Conference*, so right has an islamic org to poke in the affairs of a *secular/hindu majotiry country*??



Do they have anything against the hindu india? how r they not neutral?just coz they are Muslim>? u sick ....
Kashmir is a DISPUTED TERRITORY even ur father nehru accepted it...Its a MAJORITY MUSLIM AREA...AND PAKISTAN REPRESENTS KASHMIRIS AND THEIR VOICE ON EVERY AVAILABLE FORUM!





> India never questioned the *brutal sharia laws of KSA *,we never asked the* turks to stop the human rights violations *on the *Khurds*,who the* Fcuk *are they to advice Us at all.



U dont coz u have no fcking reason for it!
Sharia law is brutal for arseh...s and criminals who ****,steal or murder..
It Kurd .... and Turkiye is not against kurds.But PKK a terrorist organisation black listed by the world....unless u have a soft corner for them.

Also dont use ur shytting language here... this aint ur living room its a Pakistani defence forum.




> And dear oh dear donot boast of the economy or military of these islamic countries ..we have seen the military might of these countries against Israel, they were all combined still israel .....



Which countries fought israel? syria,lebanon,egypt? KSA alone will spend 60-70 billion $ on us weapon deal... count turkey,egypt,pakistan,iran and other.... where does the hungry india stand?

Also remember how hamas raped israel in lebanon conflict..



> and economy heck dont boast of the Oil driven economy of those nations ,they dont even have the knowledge of extracting thta Oil, all they can do is sit back at their luxirious palaces and watch western channels...



Forget there economy look at ur india


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## WHF

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Who started it? who promised a* refrendum>? *if u go by the head of princely state formula then Give us Junagarh and hyderabad..or give hyderabads Nizam to choose wat he likes.


referendum??now we are not interested..solutions are based on current ground situations..half of kashmir(not J&K) is with pak, a chunk of land with china..all pandits chased away from kashmir and u need referendum??


Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Do they have anything against the hindu india? how r they not neutral?just coz they are Muslim>? u sick ....


*
wat im sick if IOC is so concerned about kashmiri what is its stand on the plight of kashmiri pandits??*


Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Kashmir is a DISPUTED TERRITORY even ur father nehru accepted it...Its a MAJORITY MUSLIM AREA...AND PAKISTAN REPRESENTS KASHMIRIS AND THEIR VOICE ON EVERY AVAILABLE FORUM!


who the F*uk is nehru to tell me what is mine and wat is not??kashmir is muzzie area accepted what about jammu and ladakh they are not muslim majority, y should they come with u??


Pakistani Nationalist said:


> U dont coz u have no *fcking* reason for it!
> Sharia law is brutal for *arseh...s* and criminals who ****,steal or murder..
> It Kurd .... and Turkiye is not against kurds.But PKK a terrorist organisation black listed by the world....unless u have a soft corner for them.
> 
> Also dont use ur *shytting* language here... this aint ur living room its a Pakistani defence forum.


what moral reason does IOC have to speak on behalf of Indian/kashmiri muslims??does IOC feed them??India/hindu majority india feeds them.as far as lang is concerned look at the highlighted part of ur stmts.


Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Which countries fought israel? syria,lebanon,egypt? KSA alone will spend 60-70 billion $ on us weapon deal... count turkey,egypt,pakistan,iran and other.... where does the hungry india stand?
> Also remember how hamas raped israel in lebanon conflict...



Oh comon dont be a child wat abot 1948,1967 even 1973 was supported(active participation) with hell a lot of muslim nations.
as far we indians stand though we are hungry we can donote $25 m (pak) $1.6 billion (Afghan) in aid what about u??




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Forget there economy look at ur india



well i was not the one who bought the economy and military of OIC in comparision with india ,infact u were boasting..as far as india is concerned we are at $3.526 trillion (PPP: 4th; 2009) where do u ppl stand..

*anyways if u guys(IOC) are that powerful then do a thing have faith in ur god and attack india ,if allah is with u guys u ppl will win..*

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## VermillionTilak

GreenStar said:


> From the above statement, clearly India is not quite democratic, but is run on dictatorship. By the way I believe in a theory called what goes around, comes around. My meaning is India is oppressing the Kashmiri people, but there will be a time when the same might happen to India.



What about the Kashmiri Pundits who were raped, driven out of their homes and forced to live in refugee camps?


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## RollingStones

WHF said:


> Oh comon donot sterio type us asians that way dear...
> U guys talk of religion??
> Then y is there so muss fuss abour a mosque near ground zero??
> What was the reason behind, all the afro americans voting for Mr Obama??
> Why are the asians being thrashed in white countries??



Do you have reliable news filtering through wherever you are and are you able to make informed judgment? Judging by the way you write, I would guess not.


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## RollingStones

WHF said:


> Instead of pleading the USA and the UN pakistan should have full faith on god and wage a war on india..If allah is on their side they will surely win..



Dont be ridiculous. Please go away.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

VermillionTilak said:


> What about the Kashmiri Pundits who were *raped*, *driven out *of their homes and forced to live in refugee camps?



Couldnt find anything about **** and the driven out crap is reported by indian media only...Wat next?
Remember the 10000 raped Kashmiri women?160000 kashmiris murdered since 1947? heck u killed around 150 in these few weeks for protesting...SHAME ON INDIA.


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## VermillionTilak

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Couldnt find anything about **** and the driven out crap is reported by indian media only...Wat next?
> Remember the 10000 raped Kashmiri women?160000 kashmiris murdered since 1947? heck u killed around 150 in these few weeks for protesting...SHAME ON INDIA.









http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...weD9DA&usg=AFQjCNHrPJiyOpGQ4sWzQg-XtZeSLIZOHg

Human Rights in Kashmir: The plight of Kashmiri Pandits

http://ikashmir.net/slides/doc/kashmirspecial.pdf


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## Indian Infantry

NWO said:


> Maybe the older boy should stop burning, twisting and melting the bicycle? Your comment is just asking for a flame thread. And I'm sure this will quickly become a flaming thread.



Please, I have no such intentions. My point is that the reason the older boy is burning and twisting the bicycle is not because he obtains some sadistic pleasure out of it but that he is being forced to do so due to the actions of the smaller one.


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## Jackdaws

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Who started it? who promised a refrendum>? if u go by the head of princely state formula then Give us Junagarh and hyderabad..or give hyderabads Nizam to choose wat he likes.
> 
> 
> Do they have anything against the hindu india? how r they not neutral?just coz they are Muslim>? u sick ....
> Kashmir is a DISPUTED TERRITORY even ur father nehru accepted it...Its a MAJORITY MUSLIM AREA...AND PAKISTAN REPRESENTS KASHMIRIS AND THEIR VOICE ON EVERY AVAILABLE FORUM!




Fine, we will give you Junagadh and Hyderabad once you give us Lahore, Tharparkar and Chittagong Hill Tracts which had a bigger non Muslim population. You will have to get the later from Bangladesh.

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## RajmaChawal

OIC not giving India membership despite India having such a large Muslim population should be reason enough for India to ignore its sermons.


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## EjazR

*4,000 security men injured in 3 months of Kashmir violence*
*Shujaat Bukhari*
*Nearly 4,000 police and Central Reserve Police Force personnel and 504 civilians were injured in the violent clashes in the Kashmir Valley in the past three months.*

This was stated by the police in response to reports in a section of media that clashes has left 2000 people injured.

A police spokesman said the 504 civilians suffered injuries when security forces were engaged in controlling scores of law and order situations. Of them, 156 were injured in Srinagar alone. In Kulgam district, four sustained injuries.

At the same time, &#8220;in the hundreds of violent incidents of stone-pelting and arson resorted to by miscreants, 2660 police personnel suffered injuries, both grievous and other.&#8221; Again, Srinagar district topped with injuries to policemen (640). It was followed by Baramulla (503) and Handwara (42).

Similarly, 1351 CRPF personnel suffered serious and other injuries. &#8220;Besides, one policeman lost his life in mob violence. One SHO Pattan Fayaz Ahmed was injured when militants fired at a mob,&#8221; the spokesman said.

During this period, 78 pieces of built-up property, comprising 44 offices of various departments, 29 police stations, and five police posts were set ablaze. &#8220;Mobs set on fire and damaged 31 government vehicles, including 22 police vehicles. Not only this, 23 houses of policemen were torched or damaged, and nine private vehicles of policemen set ablaze.However, in the S.K. Institute of Medical Sciences (SKIMS) alone, 599 people were reported injured in the last three months. It is the biggest tertiary hospital in Srinagar. Sources in the hospital said 599 people, who received firearms injury, were admitted to the hospital. Of them, 23 died of their injuries. The hospital is still treating 31people.

Despite curfew and strikes, the hospital has treated nearly one lakh patients. &#8220;We certainly faced difficulties but our staff braved them even at the risk of their life,&#8221; SKIMS director Abdul Hamid Zargar said. During this period, 3080 surgeries were conducted and 5682 underwent CT scan and MRI tests. A number of doctors faced humiliation at the hands of security forces while reaching the hospital. Some were caught in stone-pelting incidents.

Figures show that 46 ambulances, including those of Sri Mahraja Hari Singh Hospital, Bone and Joint Hospital and Directorate of Health Service were damaged in stone-pelting.


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## EjazR

*Cop saves woman's life in J-K - Oneindia News*

Srinagar, Sep 24 (ANI): In a real gesture of humane approach, a police constable saved the life of a lady in Jammu and Kashmir's Baramulla District by donating blood, as there was little hope of arranging the rare blood group in view of the curfew imposed in the area.

Constable Mohammad Aleem No.664 of IRP-14-Bn. saved the life of a lady at Sub District Hospital Baramulla here.

It has been reported that one Hajira wife of Abdul Rashid Chopan resident of Waripora, Rafiabad, Sopore, was brought in a serious condition to Sub District Hospital Baramulla, following some acute gynecological complications.

Doctors attending the lady at the hospital had advised her for immediate blood transfusion to save her life.

Constable Mohammad Aleem, who was performing his duties at the same place, had the same blood group, and he volunteered himself by donating two pints of blood. The life of the lady was thus saved.

Senior police officials later rewarded the constable for showing his humane sprit. (ANI)


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## RajmaChawal

This shows who is exercising restraint when it comes to resorting to violence.


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## IceCold

WHF said:


> Toh Basit sahib aap hindustaan se ye paigam apney mulk or waseer e azam ko de ki *""jiski laathi uski bhais""*..Kashmir chahiye toh pehle kashmir hamare haaton se cheeney ki haisiyat pe aao.



So is this the mindset prevailing in India" Kashmir chaiye toh phela Kashmir hamare haaton sa cheenay ki haisyat main aoo" glad to know 
I wonder why Indians cry when Pakistan say India is the main threat surely with such a mindset you cant expect anything different.


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## RamGorur

WHF said:


> *Azadi ka matlab kya : La ilaha illa Allah*


No offence, but there is something inherently idiotic about this slogan. Translated it means, 'What does Independence mean? : There is no other god except Allah'. The slogan begins with a question but ends with something that although purports to clarify it, doesn't come anywhere close to answering that question. 

Its like asking, 'Whats your name?' and getting a reply, 'There is only one sky'.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

RamGorur said:


> No offence, but there is something *inherently idiotic about this slogan. Translated it means, 'What does Independence mean? : There is no other god except Allah'*. The slogan begins with a question but ends with something that although purports to clarify it, doesn't come anywhere close to answering that question.
> 
> Its like asking, 'Whats your name?' and getting a reply, 'There is only one sky'.



POST REPORTED. RELIGIOUS ATTACKS.


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## NWO

RamGorur said:


> No offence, but there is something inherently idiotic about this slogan. Translated it means, 'What does Independence mean? : There is no other god except Allah'. The slogan begins with a question but ends with something that although purports to clarify it, doesn't come anywhere close to answering that question.
> 
> Its like asking, 'Whats your name?' and getting a reply, 'There is only one sky'.


I believe it was meant to be that your faith in Allah, or God, will set you free.


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## RamGorur

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> POST REPORTED. RELIGIOUS ATTACKS.


From which angle is this a religious attack?


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## VermillionTilak

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> POST REPORTED. RELIGIOUS ATTACKS.





First off he said nothing to set off the fire alarm, so relax. And second, I've given you proof of numerous of Kashmiri Pundits that were raped, and exiled into refugee camps. What do you have to say to that?


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## storm seeker

RamGorur said:


> No offence, but there is something inherently idiotic about this slogan. Translated it means, 'What does Independence mean? : There is no other god except Allah'. The slogan begins with a question but ends with something that although purports to clarify it, doesn't come anywhere close to answering that question.
> 
> Its like asking, 'Whats your name?' and getting a reply, 'There is only one sky'.



"*wat does independence means for muslims ???
islamic way of living "*
that wat he meant to say duffer


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## RamGorur

^^ Thank you for clarifying the point I was making - that it confuses more than it clarifies (already two interpretations in this thread itself); alienates more than it befriends (makes it exclusive to Muslims); in a word, moronic.


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## storm seeker

RamGorur said:


> ^^ Thank you for clarifying the point I was making - that it confuses more than it clarifies (already two interpretations in this thread itself); alienates more than it befriends (makes it exclusive to Muslims); in a word, moronic.



wat can we do when uve sold the hay ur skull kept .... the space is troublesome.....i think u need to get it filled . how wud be the goo of mother cow . get ur brain filled with it . MORON !


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## LaBong

storm seeker said:


> wat can we do when uve sold the hay ur skull kept .... the space is troublesome.....i think u need to get it filled . how wud be the goo of mother cow . get ur brain filled with it . MORON !



I bow my head to thou intelligence O Holy seeker of Strom! 

Anyway, refrain using sms lingo, it's so 2003. :-/

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## storm seeker

THAT MUST BE AN SMS IN INDIA BUT IVE NEVER HEARD OF IT COZ THATS NOT A HOLY THING FOR US . . AGLI BAR PARDA KAR KE ANA !!!!

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Jackdaws said:


> Fine, we will give you Junagadh and Hyderabad once you give us Lahore, Tharparkar and Chittagong Hill Tracts which had a bigger non Muslim population. You will have to get the later from Bangladesh.



Are u simply dumb or playing dumb?
According to ur(indian) formula state rulers are to deciede fate of their states right?

Then? Hyderabad and Junagarh were STATES with MUSLIM RULERS! Who wanted to merge with PAKISTAN!! And u occupied them.... 

Thts state ruler formula of urs only comes in handy when u talk about kashmir! while like blind hipocrites u forget abt these states(hyd and junahgarh)... Lahore was neither a state and had muslim majority,same goes for tharparker.....

P.S=Get a formal education and research before posting ur B.S RANTS.

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## PAKFA

Even OIC members know, no one take OIC statment seriously.

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## WHF

storm seeker said:


> "*wat does independence means for muslims ???
> islamic way of living "*
> that wat he meant to say duffer


*
and wat about the huge number of non hindus living in jammu and kashmir??well they can pay jizya and live happily isnt it??*

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## WHF

RollingStones said:


> Do you have reliable news filtering through wherever you are and are you able to make informed judgment? Judging by the way you write, I would guess not.



Oh comon dude ...gimme a break...Ok telme me wat is thanks giving day all about??when was slavery abolished in america?why did it take a black to become prisedent sooo long after independence??Why did u guys massacare millions(red indians) in the the name of christianty and civilization??


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## WHF

RollingStones said:


> Dont be ridiculous. Please go away.



Oh yeah im being ridiculous??? one 9/11 and u guys waged a war with 2 countries..we have dozens of terrorist still we have to show restrain Y bcoz if we do something american interests(WOT) will be disturbed..heck ur nation is a terrorist nation,sanctions should be put on u guys as well ..remember david headley is an american national,and he planned mumbai attacks.Y dnt u hand him over to us??
as an indian i would be happy if this religious war over india be setteled for once and all..*let all OIC unite against india ,have faith on their god and wage a war on us.if allah is with them they will win*


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## Omar1984

*Islamic FMs back Kashmiris' rights; deplore Indian soldiers' use of force​*
Foreign Ministers of Islamic countries Friday voiced concern over the "indiscriminate" use of force by Indian security forces against unarmed civilians in Indian-occupied Kashmir, and urged the international community to help settle the Indo-Pakistan dispute.

A communique adopted at the ministerial-level meeting of member states of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) called for "full respect" for the Kashmiri people's human rights and for providing relief and comfort to them. 
Dealing with the long-standing Kashmir dispute, the communique said, "The Meeting reaffirmed its principled support to the people of Jammu and Kashmir for the realization of their legitimate right to self-determination, in accordance with the relevant UN resolutions and aspirations of the Kashmiri people. 

"It emphasized the need for full respect of human rights as well as importance of taking all requisite steps to provide relief and comfort to the Kashmiris. It further called upon India to allow international human rights groups and humanitarian organizations to visit Jammu and Kashmir". 

Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi raised the Kashmir issue at the day-long OIC annual coordination meeting, focusing on the recent events that have seen more than 100 Kashmiri civilians demanding an end to New Delhi's rule gunned down by Indian security forces.

"The Meeting expressed concern at the recent and ongoing indiscriminate use of force and gross violations of human rights committed in Indian Occupied Kashmir (IOK) by Indian security forces which have resulted in killing scores of innocent and unarmed civilians as well as injuries to hundreds of others including women, children and elderly. 

"The Meeting commended the efforts of Pakistan and its readiness to engage with India to resolve all outstanding issues including Jammu and Kashmir dispute and urged the international community to play its due role to settle this long standing dispute on UN agenda for the overall improvement of the relations between Pakistan and India as well as to promote regional peace and stability."

Apart from Kashmir, the meeting discussed many other issues of concern to the Islamic world.

The meeting adopted the following positions on some of key topics:
* Condemned Israel's continued imposition of collective punishment upon the Palestinian people, including in particular the illegal blockade against the Gaza Strip, which has gravely impacted humanitarian conditions. 

* Demanded that Israel immediately cease its unlawful collective punishment of the Palestinian people, including by completely lifting its blockade of the Gaza Strip. 

* Deeply regretted and strongly condemned the heinous May 31 Israeli military aggression in international waters against the Gaza-bound convoy of humanitarian assistance Freedom Flotilla, and called for a prompt, credible, independent, impartial and transparent international investigation.

* Called for intensification of efforts by the international community, including the Quartet and particularly by the Security Council, to promote the resumption and early conclusion of peace process negotiations aimed at ending the occupation of the Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and other Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, and the achievement of a just, lasting and peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine and the Arab-Israeli conflict as a whole, in accordance with relevant UN resolutions.

* Strongly condemned Israels policy of refusing to comply with Security Council resolution 497 (1981) concerning the occupied Syrian Golan and its policies of annexation, building of colonial settlements, confiscation of land, diversion of water sources and imposition of Israel nationality upon Syrian citizens. Demanded Israel to completely withdraw from the occupied Syrian Golan.

* Urged the international community to continue their help to the people and Government of Afghanistan in fighting terrorism, counter the drugs problem, achieve security, stability, as well as comprehensive and sustainable development.

* Condemned the mounting trend of Islamophobia and systematic defamation of Islam as well as discrimination against Muslims including measures like the ban on constructions of minarets, the opposition to the construction of a mosque in New York City, organization of events and other discriminatory measures that incite religious hatred, such as the call to organize Burn a Koran Day, and called upon the international community to exert efforts to prevent incitement to hatred and discrimination against Muslims and to take effective measures to combat the defamation of religions and negative stereotyping of people on the basis of religion, faith or race.


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## Omar1984

PAKFA said:


> Even OIC members know, no one take OIC statment seriously.



Then why is that india wants to join OIC so badly...


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## WHF

Omar1984 said:


> Then why is that india wants to join OIC so badly...



To provide OIC some importance,coz once india joins OIC world will take OIC seriously..

On a serious note the reasons were/are all monetary/oil driven,not for some political support.


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## rikki

WHF said:


> To provide OIC some importance,coz once india joins OIC world will take OIC seriously..
> 
> On a serious note the reasons were/are all monetary/oil driven,not for some political support.


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## notsuperstitious

OIC is such a joke. Most of their member countries have horrid human rights records, do not allow protests and will crush separatism with extreme force.

But in order to justify their existence, they have to make such statements. We have to take it in our stride and move on.

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## ice_man

fateh71 said:


> OIC is such a joke. Most of their member countries have horrid human rights records, do not allow protests and will crush separatism with extreme force.
> 
> But in order to justify their existence, they have to make such statements. We have to take it in our stride and move on.



you are right!! OIC is a farce! no unity all just a time pass to go out drink some tea chill out argue come back home!!!

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## EjazR

*www.outlookindia.com | The Azadi Kashmiris Want*

It is a great irony that 'azadi' a word with so many positive associations should evoke such fearful images among our political establishment and a large section of the intelligentsia in India when uttered by Kashmiris. It was Lokmanya Tilak who gave us the slogan, 'Freedom is my birthright'. Gandhi went a step further and defined 'Swaraj', as opposed to mere ousting of the British, as the raison d'etre of our freedom movement.

Most of us have been conditioned to believe that when Kashmiris come on streets demanding azadi, they do so only at the behest of Pakistani agents. There is no denying that Pakistan has injected a lot of poison into Kashmiri politics by fomenting religious strife. But it is the irresponsible deeds of our own politicians that create a conducive environment for converting the urge for azadi into a pro-Pak secessionist upsurge.

Even in states that do not harbour secessionist forces, we witness daily outbursts of discontent on a range of issues from absence of basic civic amenities to forcible acquisition of people's lands, human rights abuses, extortion rackets patronised by police and politicians, electoral frauds and deaths in police custody.

We also witness simple agitations turning violent because of the ham-handed response of the police who often beat up even peaceful agitators. Lack of transparency and accountability of the governance machinery coupled with the absence of effective institutions for grievance redressal has made India a land of "a million mutinies".

In Patna or Mumbai, such protests are taken as a sign of disenchantment with state administration. But the same action in Kashmir is invariably interpreted as anti-national. People will respond to this by saying that in other parts of India, people don't start demanding azadi when they come out to protest against their regional governments. But in other parts of India, protests against local governments are not crushed through the deployment of security forces using deadly weapons as often happens in Kashmir.

The 'special status' of J&K has ensured that unlike people in the rest of India, the people of Kashmir cannot take most of their constitutional rights for granted. Lack of azadi is visible on every road, in every mohalla, every town and village. Arbitrary arrests, crackdowns, custodial deaths and disappearances are routine events. For example, this entire phase of violence erupted because people who came out to protest against the wanton killing by the J&K police of 17-year-old Tuffail Mattoo were met with bullets. That led to more protests, more injuries and more deaths. At such times, the cry for 'azadi' is a desperate plea for a life of dignity, freedom from constant fear and assertion of democratic rights, including the right to protest against the denial of fundamental freedoms promised by the Constitution of India.

Kashmiris have proved their disapproval of terrorism by marginalising Pak-inspired militants. By mistaking their hunger for azadi, we only push them away from Indian democracy.

Wahidur Rehman, a young journalist from Kashmir, provided a valuable insight on the message Kashmiris try to deliver to Delhi by shouting "azadi". He said, ''From our childhood we have been taught by our elders that the most effective tool of blackmailing the New Delhi establishment into waking up is to start demanding azadi. They come to the dialogue table, start talking of concessions only when we rend the air with slogans of azadi. Otherwise, our pleas fall on deaf ears.''

Mehbooba Mufti once told me that even when a group of women come to meet her, if they find she is not available, they will start shouting, "We want azadi", when in fact they came for jobs or better civic amenities. This is not to belittle the urge for self-rule and having the power to call their politicians to account rather than depend on the mercy of Delhi durbar.

***

During the current agitation, Farooq Abdullah was heard impatiently remarking on TV: I dont know what these Kashmiris want! True, both Farooq and his narcissistic son, Omar Abdullah have failed to understand the needs and aspirations of people of their state. Not surprisingly, whenever the National Conference is in power in J&K, within no time, we see the rage of Kashmiris spill on to the streetssomething that works to the full advantage of Pakistan. The current joke in Kashmir is that Pakistan has decided to dispense with the services of ISI for Kashmir because they recognize Omar does a better job for them. 

Those trying to figure out what creates frequent outbursts of rage in Kashmir need to learn from those who have been able to win the respect and confidence of vast majority of Kashmiris. The names most often cited reveal a lot about the reasons for the estrangement of Kashmiris from India and what many of them mean when they cry for azadi. 

During my recent trip to Kashmir as part of Manushi's fact finding team I was pleasantly surprised to find that even at the height of estrangement from the Indian establishment, the most respected political figure in Kashmir is neither any separatist leader nor any Pakistani General but Atal Bihari Vajpayee. Barring the minority of die hard pro Pakistani elements, people cutting across the entire political spectrum, including a significant section of moderate separatists, say it openly that if only Vajpayee had stayed in power a little longer, he would have steered the country towards a permanent solution of the Kashmir problem. 

Muzaffar Hussain Baig of PDP was not too far off the mark when he declared in a public meeting that if Vajpayee were to contest from any constituency in Kashmir, he would have won hands down. The special affection for Vajpayee is in part due to the fact that during his tenure as Prime Minister Kashmir witnessed one of the two cleanest elections in the 60 plus year old history of parliamentary democracy. Vajpayee made sure neither the central government nor the state government dirtied their hands by tampering with the ballot boxes, thus ensuring one of the most credible elections in Kashmir in 2002 despite the threats by Pakistan inspired militants who unleashed a good deal of violence and even murdered some candidates in order to enforce a boycott of the elections. 

Even though PDP was a coalition partner of the Congress during Vajpayees tenure, the Centre yielded unprecedented political space to the J&K state government in addition to supporting its various healing touch measures. He let PDP take new political initiatives and define its own agenda rather than be a puppet of Delhi Durbar.

Vajpayees bigger contribution lies in the fact that he did not depend on intelligence agencies to define his political agenda and road map for Kashmir. He engaged with the entire cross section of political opinion, including the separatists and gave ordinary people hope that his government was ready to take concrete steps to resolve the Kashmir issue through honest dialogue. His declaration that he was looking for a solution within insaniyat ka dayara (the domain of humanity) created an unprecedented wave of enthusiasm and hope. This does not mean that Kashmiris expected him to bypass the Indian Constitution. It only indicates Vajpayees willingness to acknowledge that most previous governments had too often trampled upon the human rights of Kashmiris while pretending to uphold the Indian Constitution. 

It is indeed tragic that there is no one in BJP with the sagacity to build on the goodwill left behind by Vajpayee. Instead, most current BJP leaders are prone to issuing thoughtless jingoistic statements to prove their nationalist credentials without making any attempt to have direct contact with the people of the Valley which would enable them to tune in and respond sensitively to the legitimate grievances of Kashmiris and also give them the moral right to take a firm stand against illegitimate demands made by a motivated section of the people.

Nehru may be celebrated in the rest of India as a great democrat but in Kashmir, one hears people remember former Indian Prime Minister Morarji Desai as the respect-worthy face of Indian democracy even though he is all but forgotten in the rest of India. Kashmiris remember him with warmth and gratitude for letting them have their first taste of free and fair election in 1977. This was made possible because Janata Party came to power after defeating Indira Gandhi who had built a highly authoritarian, centralized power structure in her desire to rule all of India from her imperial durbar in Delhi. Morarji put his foot down against managing or rigging elections, making Kashmiris feel part of a new democratic upsurge in India following the Emergency.

One of the big heroes for Kashmiris is former Chief Election Commissioner J. M. Lyngdoh because they witnessed him make meticulous preparations for and personally overseeing the 2002 elections. George Fernandes is another respected name in Kashmir because even as Defense Minister he did not indulge in jingoistic politics and reached out to Kashmiri people even at the height of secessionist movement in the Valley. Likewise former President Abdul Kalam won the hearts of people in the Valley because during his visit he cut out needless hurdles placed by security cordon around the President and mingled freely with the people and established very warm rapport with the younger generation, especially students. He had no difficulty in getting thousands of Kashmiri students join him in singing the national anthem.

These salient names among many others provide enough evidence that majority of Kashmiris want the same freedom that all of us do. When they find their democratic aspirations crushed through brute force and devious political games emanating from Delhi Durbar with puppet Chief Ministers allowed to loot and plunder the states resources without any instruments of accountability available to citizens, they do get desperate. Frustration and disillusionment with Indian democracy are the most valuable assets for Pakistan in their proxy war against India. 

In the current upsurge, the cry for azadi began as a cry to be free from the present regimes devious games and reign of terror. By ignoring it for months on end and misreading it as Pakistan- inspired trouble, the central government has offered a golden opportunity to Pakistan to exploit the resultant rage and given unprecedented clout to secessionist forces. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has himself witnessed how the constituency for secession from Indian can be made to shrink or expand depending on how responsive or ham handed the governments in the state and at the Centre are in responding to peoples legitimate grievances and aspirations. 

When their elected representatives prove capable of providing a responsive administration, especially security of life and property to citizens, along with efficiency in delivery of basic civic amenities, people start demanding IITs, IIMs, games stadia and the opportunity to become Indian Idols. They then show eagerness to participate in the vibrancy of Indian democracy. For example, even though Article 370 does not allow central laws to be automatically applicable to Kashmir, people have clamoured for the Right to Information Act to be made applicable to Kashmir. But when they are saddled with a callous dysfunctional and corrupt government which uses the brute might of the Indian state to crush their democratic rights, they are bound to feel estranged from Indian democracy, especially if the central government seems to be backing the brute actions of the state government and the most visible face of Indian democracy are the guns of security forces.

***

Omar may feel elated at Rahul Gandhis open and unconditional support to his regime. But if he had any emotional connect with his people he would know that this only damns him further. Any politician who tries to ride roughshod over his own people simply because he enjoys the patronage of Delhi Durbar becomes a hate symbol not just in Kashmir but other states as well. He may survive as chief minister with Rahuls support but he cannot function as CM without the backing of at least a section of the people of Kashmir. Rahul cannot procure peoples support for Omar. He has to earn it himself.

Most people outside the Valley dont know that Omar has forced all government offices to remain closed for nearly three months because even government employees are up in arms against him. People say government officers are denied curfew passes because he is afraid if they join duty, they might start demonstrating against him in their office complexes itself. 

The timing of Rahul Gandhis statement backing Omar  on the eve of the parliamentary delegation to Kashmir  was even more damaging because it sought to undermine the very credibility of the high powered parliamentary team that visited the Valley on 20th September 2010. It was interpreted in Kashmir as an attempt to influence the team since it is headed by three senior most Congress ministers in the UPA government. This has confirmed the worst fears of Kashmiris that the present Durbar in Delhi will only support puppet Chief Ministers in Kashmir, no matter how disastrous they are for the state and for India. 

The parliamentary visit turned out to be an embarrassing affair also because the Congress High Command seems to have done no preparatory work prior to sending off a whole plane load of MPs and ministers to Srinagar. It was designed to be a flying, touch- and- go- visit  ritualism at its worst! It was not structured to enable the MPs to meet ordinary people, to commiserate with the families of innocent victims, to listen to their grievances, to meet the injured persons in the hospital and to see for themselves the havoc being caused by Omars callous and draconian rule. The arrangements were left in the hands of state government which had a lot to hide and therefore did all it could to stage- manage the show. Neither the families of victims nor those who had the courage to give an independent version were allowed anywhere near the visiting delegation. The state government enforced a stringent 72 hour long curfew so that no one could stir out of their homesnot even to go to hospital, leave alone meeting visitors from Delhi housed under tight security. National Conference handpicked some of their own men, briefed them on what to say and carried them in government vehicles, to parade them as the voice of Kashmir. Even grass root Congress leaders and workers were denied the opportunity to meet the delegation. 

The Deputy Commissioner of Srinagar was put in charge of screening those who put in requests to meet the parliamentary delegation. Applicants were told to send fax messages along with the text of what they wanted to say to the delegation. Given the shoot at sight orders and a deadly curfew in force, how could people access fax machines? And yet some brave ones dared persevere. They phoned their friends in Delhi and other parts of India to send faxes on their behalf. Many such people had the CID men come visiting their homes in a brazen attempt to intimidate them into silence. Important business chambers, farmers organizations, lawyers and other professionals decided it was not worth their while to meet the delegation.

The Hurriyat leaders' open snub by their refusal to meet our parliamentarians was expected since they feel no compulsion to climb down from the high horse on which Omar has placed them. The fairly stringent conditions they have laid down for a dialogue poses a real challenge for the Centre. In less than 20 months of his rule, Omar has not only brought the hitherto marginalized secessionist forces centre- stage but also provided them such clout that they openly dictate terms to his government and now even to the government of India. For example, Omars administration invariably imposes a draconian curfew to match the hartaal calendar announced by the hardline Hurriyat. Curfew is relaxed at the orders of the Hurriyat. 

But some of our wise MPs saved the situation by actually going uninvited to visit Hurriyat leaders in their homes with a message of goodwill. But this act of grace and political astuteness has been  understandably  misinterpreted by people in the rest of India, especially Kashmiri Pandits and their sympathizers, as yet another instance of supine surrender before pro Pakistani secessionists. 

The parliamentary delegation would have made an impact only if a select group of senior MPs had spent several days in the Valley and held public hearings, meeting a varied cross section of ordinary citizens as well as professional organizations, students and business chambers instead of meeting a select group of politicians. This has created the impression that only hard-line separatist leaders matter in the Valley and that no solution can be found without unconditionally surrendering to all their demands.

This is not to undermine the importance of talking to separatists. Our MPs were far- sighted enough to open the doors of dialogue even with known secessionists because they know from experience that in a democracy it is vital to keep lines of communication open for all. But our Prime Minister has put himself in an awkward position. At a time when both the state and the central government appear to be trampling on the constitutional rights of Kashmiris with brute force leading to daily deaths of young men, women and children, for the Prime Minister to repeatedly emphasize that he is willing to talk to only those who abjure violence and declare allegiance to the Indian Constitution amounts to rubbing salt into peoples wounds. Instead of expecting Kashmiris to swear allegiance to the Indian Constitution as a pre-condition to dialogue, let the Prime Minister first demonstrate through concrete measures that the government of India cares for and knows how to safeguard the constitutional rights of its citizens. If this can be done, an effectively enduring solution to the vexed Kashmir problem will follow effortlessly. If not, the Congress High Command will have to bear the ignominy for furthering the political agenda of Pakistan in Kashmir.

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## Tuahaa

outlook*india*.com doesn't sound like a great source of info... cold hard facts appear on international news, like BBC (read: protesters killed in Indian occupied Kashmir)


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## back me up

IceCold said:


> So is this the mindset prevailing in India" Kashmir chaiye toh phela Kashmir hamare haaton sa cheenay ki haisyat main aoo" glad to know
> I wonder why Indians cry when Pakistan say India is the main threat surely with such a mindset you cant expect anything different.



sure. one guy speaks for the whole country


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## RajmaChawal

Tuahaa said:


> outlook*india*.com doesn't sound like a great source of info... cold hard facts appear on international news, like BBC (read: protesters killed in Indian occupied Kashmir)



You do understand the difference between 'news' and 'views' don't you?


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## Spring Onion

From Indian source.


*The Many Meanings Of Azadi*


*It is a great irony that 'azadi' a word with so many positive associations should evoke such fearful images among our political establishment and a large section of the intelligentsia in India when uttered by Kashmiris. It was Lokmanya Tilak who gave us the slogan, 'Freedom is my birthright'. Gandhi went a step further and defined 'Swaraj', as opposed to mere ousting of the British, as the raison d'etre of our freedom movement.*

*Most of us have been conditioned to believe that when Kashmiris come on streets demanding azadi, they do so only at the behest of Pakistani agents. There is no denying that Pakistan has injected a lot of poison into Kashmiri politics by fomenting religious strife. But it is the irresponsible deeds of our own politicians that create a conducive environment for converting the urge for azadi into a pro-Pak secessionist upsurge.*

*Even in states that do not harbour secessionist forces, we witness daily outbursts of discontent on a range of issues from absence of basic civic amenities to forcible acquisition of people's lands, human rights abuses, extortion rackets patronised by police and politicians, electoral frauds and deaths in police custody.

We also witness simple agitations turning violent because of the ham-handed response of the police who often beat up even peaceful agitators. Lack of transparency and accountability of the governance machinery coupled with the absence of effective institutions for grievance redressal has made India a land of "a million mutinies".*

In Patna or Mumbai, such protests are taken as a sign of disenchantment with state administration. But the same action in Kashmir is invariably interpreted as anti-national. People will respond to this by saying that in other parts of India, people don't start demanding azadi when they come out to protest against their regional governments. But in other parts of India, protests against local governments are not crushed through the deployment of security forces using deadly weapons as often happens in Kashmir.

The 'special status' of J&K has ensured that unlike people in the rest of India, the people of Kashmir cannot take most of their constitutional rights for granted. For example, a common complaint in Kashmir is that in 60 years of independence, they have witnessed only two genuinely free elections in the Valley one in 1977 and the second one in 2002. Local bodies remained dead for decades.

*Lack of azadi is visible on every road, in every mohalla, every town and village. Arbitrary arrests, crackdowns, custodial deaths and disappearances are routine events. For example, this entire phase of violence erupted because people who came out to protest against the wanton killing by the J&K police of 17-year-old Tuffail Mattoo were met with bullets. That led to more protests, more injuries and more deaths*. At such times, the cry for 'azadi' is a desperate plea for a life of dignity, freedom from constant fear and assertion of democratic rights, including the right to protest against the denial of fundamental freedoms promised by the Constitution of India.

Kashmiris have proved their disapproval of terrorism by marginalising Pak-inspired militants. By mistaking their hunger for azadi, we only push them away from Indian democracy.

Wahidur Rehman, a young journalist from Kashmir, provided a valuable insight on the message Kashmiris try to deliver to Delhi by shouting "azadi". He said, ''From our childhood we have been taught by our elders that the most effective tool of blackmailing the New Delhi establishment into waking up is to start demanding azadi. They come to the dialogue table, start talking of concessions only when we rend the air with slogans of azadi. Otherwise, our pleas fall on deaf ears.''

Mehbooba Mufti once told me that even when a group of women come to meet her, if they find she is not available, they will start shouting, "We want azadi", when in fact they came for jobs or better civic amenities. This is not to belittle the urge for self-rule and having the power to call their politicians to account rather than depend on the mercy of Delhi durbar.

The constituency for secession keeps shrinking or expanding depending on how well or poorly the central and state governments tune in to people's legitimate grievances and aspirations. P Chidambaram recently remarked that the same young people who two years ago were demanding IITs and IIMs are today pelting stones.

During Atal Bihari Vajpayee's prime ministership, the constituency for secession shrunk dramatically because he not only ensured free and fair elections in 2002 but also engaged with the entire political spectrum of Kashmir. He also gave the PDP-led coalition a free hand in defining the political agenda for the state. With such simple statesman-like gestures, he became the most respected political figure for Kashmiris.

Manmohan Singh's repeated statements offering "dialogue" to all those who abjure violence and operate within the "constitutional framework" act as irritants instead of giving people faith in the democratic process. Can the prime minister claim that the Omar Abdullah-led coalition government is operating within the constitutional framework? Kashmiris are angry because the state government has trampled on their constitutional rights with unprecedented brutality with the approval and backing of the central government. It is the PM's duty to demonstrate that his government knows how to protect the fundamental rights of its citizens as promised by our Constitution, before he expects people to owe allegiance to it.

The writer is professor, Centre for the Study of Developing Societies, Delhi.

Read more: The Many Meanings Of Azadi - The Times of India The Many Meanings Of Azadi - The Times of India

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## hecj

Jana said:


> 5b is a big money to afford Always Ultra for Indian army or we can replace it with another brand



ya we know the ultras,we have experience of dealing with them


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## KS

EjazR said:


> *Nearly 4,000 police and Central Reserve Police Force personnel and 504 civilians were injured in the violent clashes in the Kashmir Valley in the past three months.*



The govt of India is paying Rs 5 Lakh per person(stone pelters) killed in the recent spate of arson and riots according to the latest announcement after a CCS meeting.

What happens to these injured policemen.?

I guess India is the only country in the world where the govt pays damages to the rioters and stone pelters while ignoring the men who got injured in the call of duty...Shameful.

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## KS

laiqs@mi said:


> this is typical indian mantality
> if they dont consider them selves as indian they are not human???????
> you must be ashamed at you statment.



This is the typical human mentality - why should I care about some one who doesnt even want to be called Indian...? after all I have my own 1 billion ppl to care.

Well there is nothing wrong in my statement.I*f they want Freedom that badly they should have the mental fortitude to accept both loss of material and life till that freedom is achieved.*

No one s going to give freedom to them in a platter.If they want let them earn it.No use in indulging in rioting and then crying if hurt in the process.


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## Anonymous_Clown

Karthic Sri said:


> The govt of India is paying Rs 5 Lakh per person(stone pelters) killed in the recent spate of arson and riots according to the latest announcement after a CCS meeting.
> 
> What happens to these injured policemen.?
> 
> I guess India is the only country in the world where the govt pays damages to the rioters and stone pelters while ignoring the men who got injured in the call of duty...Shameful.



Yup, agreed. We all remember how Pakistan handled the Bengali demands for independence in 1970-71. And Pakistanis on this forum have the gall to question us about human rights.

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## Areesh

Anonymous_Clown said:


> Yup, agreed. We all remember how Pakistan handled the Bengali demands for independence in 1970-71. And Pakistanis on this forum have the gall to question us about human rights.


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## Anonymous_Clown

Areesh said:


>



Yup, thats what I wanted to say - I didn't have an image handy though...

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## riju78

arent these CRPF men local kashmiris?? or they from different parts of india??


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## Spring Onion

RajmaChawal said:


> This shows who is exercising restraint when it comes to resorting to violence.



This shows if 4,000 figure comes up in isolated cases then imagine how many Indian Terrorist force personnel and their groupies are trying to suppress freedom movement in Kashmir Occupied by Indian terrorist army.


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## RajmaChawal

Areesh said:


>



D..Uh..


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## RajmaChawal

Jana said:


> This shows if 4,000 figure comes up in isolated cases then imagine *how many* Indian Terrorist force personnel and their groupies are trying to suppress freedom movement in Kashmir Occupied by Indian terrorist army.



But we know that already don't we? So what's your point?


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## somebozo

If India ignores OIC, they will send it some really angry letters..thats what OIC stands for..Organisation of Impotent Countries.

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## HAIDER

RajmaChawal said:


> OIC not giving India membership despite India having such a large Muslim population should be reason enough for India to ignore its sermons.


OIC can only provide membership if Indian muslims have independent state. India is not secular state, its just political slogan, we have living example of Indian media.

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## SpArK

*New Central formula for Jammu & Kashmir​*






A child looks at a securityman after the car in which he was travelling along with his family was stopped at a checkpoint during curfew in Srinagar on Friday. The Centre has announced an eight-point initiative to address the Kashmir issue on Saturday



*
The Centre will appoint a Group of Interlocutors, under the Chairmanship of an eminent person, to begin the process of sustained dialogue in Jammu and Kashmir with political parties, groups, students, civil society and other stakeholders.
*


The decision to begin the process of sustained dialogue was part of the eight-point initiative taken at the meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) here on Saturday which was chaired by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.



Briefing journalists about the slew of measures taken at the CCS meeting, Union Home Minister P. Chidambaram said the decisions were based on the report submitted by him to the Prime Minister and inputs of the all-party delegation that had visited Srinagar and Jammu on September 20 and 21. Mr. Chidambaram had led the 39-member all-party delegation to the State.

*In a bid to reach out to the people of the State, the Centre would advise Jammu and Kashmir government to release all students detained for stone pelting and similar violation of law and to withdraw all charges.*



Mr. Chidambaram said the Centre would request the State government to immediately convene a meeting of the Unified Command to review deployment of security forces in Kashmir Valley, especially at Srinagar, with particular reference to descaling those at bunkers and check points in the city and other towns. He said the Unified Command would review notifications issued for disturbed areas. Replying to a question, he said that withdrawal or dilution of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) was not discussed at the CCS meeting.



*He said the government would grant an ex-gratia of Rs five lakh to the family of each of those killed in civil disturbances in Kashmir since June 11. He said the Centre would also advise the State government to review cases of all Public Safety Act (PSA) detenues and withdraw detention orders in appropriate cases.*



*Replying to a question, the Home Minister said there were 84 persons under judicial custody, 110 under police custody and 51 had been detained under Public Safety Act since civil disturbances began in Kashmir Valley in June. *He said that about 108 persons had lost their lives in civil disturbances.



*In another step aimed at restoring normal academic activities for the students in Kashmir Valley, the Centre would request the State government to take steps to immediately reopen all schools, colleges, universities, hold special classes and to ensure examinations are conducted on schedule for the current academic year.*



*The Centre would also provide Rs 100 crore additional assistance to the State government to sanction grants for improving infrastructure in schools and colleges like construction of classrooms, auditoriums, laboratories and playgrounds. He said the Centre would appoint two special task forces for Jammu and Ladakh regions to examine developmental needs in infrastructure there and make suitable recommendations.*



The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) said that to the extent the Governments approach was anti-separatist and pro-citizen, it would welcome it. ``Any dilution of this position will not find support from the BJP, the party said in a statement.



Reiterating that it has always stood for giving strong signals to the separatists that India shall not compromise on its sovereignty under any circumstances, the BJP said it would not accept any dilution of the provisions of the AFSPA.


"However, the BJP is of the opinion that instead of reaching out to the separatists, the Government of India must reach out to the average citizens of the Valley and prevent their harassment. "Thus, if any such steps are taken which are citizen-friendly, the same would be supported by the party, it said.


Welcoming the government's eight-point initiative on Jammu and Kashmir, the CPI (M) said that a review of the AFSPA should be positively considered by the Unified Command in the State.



"It is good that the government has taken these decisions, particularly on the release of the youths, review of cases of detainees under the Public Safety Act and compensation, party Polit Bureau member and Rajya Sabha leader Sitaram Yechury said. Mr. Yechury, who was also a member of the all-party delegation to Jammu and Kashmir, said all the decisions, taken by the CCS, "must be operationalised immediately.


Mr. Yechury, who some of the members of the delegation to meet separatist leaders as well as the displaced Kashmiri Pandits, said the special packages announced for Jammu and Ladakh regions were a welcome move.


The Hindu : News / National : New Central formula for Jammu & Kashmir


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## SpArK

*CPI(M) welcomes Kashmir package, seeks AFSPA review​*
Welcoming the governments eight-point initiative on Jammu and Kashmir, the Communist Party of India (Marxist) on Saturday said a review of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) should be positively considered by the Unified Command in the State.

It is good that the government has taken these decisions, particularly on the release of the youths, review of cases of detainees under the Public Safety Act (PSA) and compensation, party Polit Bureau member Sitaram Yechury told PTI here.

He said all the decisions, taken by the Cabinet Committee on Security after the recent visit of an all-party delegation to the State, must be operationalised immediately.

However, the issues of AFSPA and the action to be initiated on proven cases of excesses (by security forces) still remain to be attended, Mr. Yechury said, expressing hope that when the Unified Command meets in Srinagar, these issues would be reviewed and positively considered.

Mr. Yechury, who led MPs to meet separatist leaders as well as the displaced Kashmiri Pandits among others, said the special packages announced for the Jammu and Ladakh regions were a welcome move.

The long-pending assurances and promises made for the rehabilitation of Kashmiri Pandits and others must be immediately implemented, Mr. Yechury said.

He said the political goodwill generated by the visit of the parliamentary delegation must be carried forward and the confidence-building measures consolidated by the group of interlocutors that the government has said it will constitute.


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## SpArK

*Omar welcomes Centre''s 8-point Kashmir initiative
*








PTI | 10:09 PM,Sep 25,2010


New Delhi, Sep 25 (PTI) Welcoming the Centre's eight-point initiative for Jammu and Kashmir, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah today said it was a positive development which should lead to resolving the political issues of the state.

*"The Centre's Kashmir formula is a positive development and must lead to a resolution to all political issues of Jammu and Kashmir," * Omar told reporters here.

The Chief Minister said work on some of the issues announced after the CCS had already begun and expressed the hope that the schools and colleges will reopen from Monday and students booked for stone-pelting will be released soon.


*On convening of the Unified Headquarters meeting, he said it will be done sometime next week during which a thorough discussion on decreasing the footprint of security forces in main towns, including Srinagar, will be discussed besides withdrawal of "disturbed areas" act in few places would be discussed.
*


"While saying so, I would not build hope that results will be expected in the first meeting itself. It may take time and there may be many rounds before arriving at a consensus," he said.While acknowledging the role of the army, Omar made it clear that "the view point of the army cannot be ignored but at the same time, their view point cannot be accepted unilaterally".


Omar said the Centre's eight-point initiative was a positive development and the appointment of interlocutors to start dialogue with civil society was a welcome step.He said he understood his responsibilities as the chief minister of the state and he would try his best to take forward the Centre's formula and do the needful on the behalf of the state government.


Omar welcomes Centre''s 8-point Kashmir initiative, IBN Live News


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## RajmaChawal

HAIDER said:


> OIC can only provide membership if Indian muslims have independent state. India is not secular state, its just political slogan, we have living example of Indian media.



You know I just dropped my jaw at the stupidity of what you just posted.

I neither have a big enough face nor a big enough palm for it!

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## parasite

Hmmm they are doing some serious work........lets hope Peace prevails in the valley and it goes beautiful and green......again..


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## silent hill

indians are speaking and laughing while kashmiris are inhumanely butchered there, stop talking abt human rights and minority rights u stupid arses if u cant do it in the first place..

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## somebozo

*India seeks Pak parleys*
By AGENCIES 

Published: Sep 25, 2010 22:15 Updated: Sep 25, 2010 22:15 

NEW YORK/NEW DELHI: Amid possibility of a meeting with Pakistan's Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi next week, External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna has underlined *there was no alternative to talks with Pakistan and said he was ready to discuss all issues, including Kashmir.*


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## dabong1

I wonder how many kashmiri civilians have been killed and injured in the same period compared to the "security men".


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## Omar1984

*Ridiculous claim of Krishna on AJK​*
IN the backdrop of indigenous freedom struggle by the Kashmiris which has unnerved the Government in New Delhi, Indian External Affairs Minister has come out with a statement asking Pakistan to end its occupation of Azad Jammu and Kashmir. *The Indian Minister made the statement at the UN Headquarters ignoring that the world body through its Resolutions recognises Kashmir as a disputed territory and had committed for a plebiscite to enable the people to decide about their future.*

The ridiculous statement by the Indian Minister was no doubt aimed at diverting the attention of the international community from flagrant violations of human rights and it also proves that New Delhi has no regard for the Resolutions of the Security Council while it is hell-bent to become its permanent member. He appears to be living a in fools paradise that in this age nobody would go along with his contention that AJK is part of India. People are protesting in Indian Held Kashmir demanding India to quit and not in Azad Kashmir. *We would like to remind Krishna that it was India which went to the United Nations when Kashmiris had taken up arms against the occupation forces in 1948 and it accepted the Resolutions for a plebiscite.* The AJK was got freed by the people of Kashmir themselves at that time while those still being persecuted by the occupation forces are giving supreme sacrifices to get their fundamental rights. IHK cities and towns are under continuous curfew but the brave Kashmiris are defying the prohibitory orders and taking bullets on their chests. In order to arouse the world conscience Kashmiris are placing the shocking images of brutalities and killings on the websites to expose the real face of India. New Delhi must now realise that it cannot delay the issue for a longer period under one pretext or the other as the Kashmiris wont let it be kept under the carpet, they are up in arm and an Intefada-like popular revolt is being witnessed against the Indian occupation of Kashmir.

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## VermillionTilak

Source please


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## bandit

Omar1984 said:


> *Ridiculous claim of Krishna on AJK​*
> IN the backdrop of indigenous freedom struggle by the Kashmiris which has unnerved the Government in New Delhi, Indian External Affairs Minister has come out with a statement asking Pakistan to end its occupation of Azad Jammu and Kashmir. *The Indian Minister made the statement at the UN Headquarters ignoring that the world body through its Resolutions recognises Kashmir as a disputed territory and had committed for a plebiscite to enable the people to decide about their future.*
> 
> ...occupation of Kashmir.



Whats so ridiculous, Pakistan is occupying Kashmir isn't it?

Pakistan's official stand is that Kashmir is disputed territory and not its own territory, so obviously presence of Pakistani forces in foreign land falls under occupation.

Dumb propaganda article.

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## hecj

if kashmir is disputed and want independence then pak is also occupying it and also china.*but why indian part is disputed??*.it means pakistan made this it's own integral part but according to u.n,it is disputed one.so it's right watever krishna said.

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## Pk_Thunder

*Kashmiris use novel strategy against Indians*​

Sunday, 26 Sep, 2010

SRINAGAR, Sept 25: Its a perplexing strategy. Every week leaders in Indian-held Kashmir release a detailed calendar of their upcoming protests that essentially dares the security forces to stop them. And they almost always do. 

Last week, when they called for supporters to strike and hold protests throughout the day  and open for business at night  Indian authorities hit back by imposing a round-the-clock curfew and called out the military for crowd control. 

Protest leaders say even though telegraphing their intentions gives authorities a chance to quash their plans, it is worth it because it instigates the authorities to hit back with a heavy hand, further de-legitimising Indian rule in the eyes of Kashmiris. 

The demonstration schedules are part of a Quit Kashmir campaign that started in June aimed at winning independence from India or a merger with Pakistan. 

*The resistance calendars are our means of expression to seek Indias clear acknowledgment of what we want, and simultaneously challenge the silence of the international community, *said Syed Ali Shah Geelani, one of the leaders spearheading the ongoing protests. 

Indian officials have repeatedly said the protests are orchestrated by Kashmiri leaders to disrupt normal life in Kashmir. 

*Their sole objective is to make the government defunct and run a parallel system as part of a nefarious design. But our legal system has many provisions to deal with it, and well not let them have their way, *said Taj Mohiuddin, a cabinet minister in the state government. 

The Kashmiri leaders, who say they are only channelling the public mistrust of Indian rule, amended their programme on Thursday, ending their call for daytime strikes for four days to allow normal life to briefly return to the region. 

However, the government has continued with its massive security lockdown, which has greatly curtailed the protests. 

Analysts say releasing the protest schedule shows the government the Kashmiris are not cowed and intend to push ahead with their fight. 

*The continued ratcheting up of the methods and intensity of the protests means that in supporting the calendars people are trying to force a meaningful dialogue, not a dialogue defined by New Delhi,* said Prof Siddiq Wahid, head of the Islamic University of Science and Technology in Kashmir. 

However, security officials, buoyed by the recent curfew-enforced calm, have begun to reach out to Kashmiris locked in their homes and desperately looking for ways to meet their emergency needs.AP


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Pakistan tells India: End brutality in occupied Kashmir​*
25. Sep, 2010 

UNITED NATIONS, SEPT. 24 (APP): Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi Friday strongly condemned the use of excessive force by the Indian security Forces against unarmed protestors, including women and children, in Indian Occupied Kashmir.The human rights of the Kashmiri people must be respected and their voices heard to create an enabling environment for a peaceful solution of the longstanding Jammu and Kashmir dispute, he said in an address to the annual coordination meeting of OIC foreign minister, demanding an immediate end to the brutality.
The Foreign Minister thanked the OIC Foreign Ministers for their consistent support to the people of Jammu and Kashmir in their just struggle for their right to self-determination.

Foreign Minister Qureshi also expressed deep concern on increasing instances of Islamophobia and negative stereotyping of Islam and discrimination against Muslims. He underlined the need to address divisive ideologies and hate speech that posed a serious threat to societal peace and harmony in open societies, underscorinhg the need to promote interfaith and intercultural dialogue to marginalize extremists on all sides.

Foreign Minister Qureshi emphasized that terrorism has no faith, no creed and no nationality. Therefore, equating any of these with terrorism would be counterproductive. He underlined the need to address its root causes like prolonged unresolved conflicts, continued suppression and marginalization of people and denial of the right of self determination to people suffering under foreign occupation to eradicate the menace of terrorism.

The Foreign Minister expressed Pakistans unequivocal support to the Palestinian cause and the two-state solution of the Arab-Israeli conflict. He also condemned the Israeli attack on Freedom Flotilla and expressed support for a prompt, impartial and transparent inquiry by the UN Secretary Generals panel of the incident. Pakistan calls for end to Indian brutality in occupied Kashmir

Pakistan tells India: End brutality in occupied Kashmir|Islamabad Globe


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## RamGorur

The 'dispute' _is_ that Pakistan is illegally occupying a large swath of Kashmir, which, according to the same UN resolutions that they swear by, has to be completely vacated. 

Krishna's comments, if he has made any, are completely in line with those UN resolutions.

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## hecj

this statements has been repeated many times.many times he has gone to oic,u.n etc.but every time wat he gained??a big 0.the soln at the max level can be accepting loc as a border.


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## RamGorur

> *The resistance calendars are our means of expression to seek Indias clear acknowledgment of what we want, and simultaneously challenge the silence of the international community, *said Syed Ali Shah Geelani, one of the leaders spearheading the ongoing protests.


Geelani sahab, as long as you shout Islamic slogans and hoist Pakistani flags, the international community will remain silent. They wouldn't touch you even with a 100 feet barge pole.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Qureshi urges India against use of force in Kashmir​*
Updated at: 1415 PST, Saturday, September 25, 2010







NEW YORK: Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi, condemning the brutal use of force on unarmed demonstrators in the India-occupied Kashmir, demanded the amicable resolution of Kashmir issue, Geo News reported Saturday.

Addressing a session of foreign ministers of Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC), Qureshi demanded the Indian rulers to respect the human rights of Kashmiri people and halt the atrocious mishandling of them.

Demanding an immediate and peaceful solution of Kashmir issue, he thanked the OIC for extending support to Kashmir people in their struggle.

Qureshi also voiced concerns over the currency of hate-registered incidents against Muslims.

Pakistan will continue to completely back up Palestine for a peace in Middle East, he stressed. 

Qureshi urges India against use of force in Kashmir - GEO.tv


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## hecj

already posted n answered


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## EjazR

Well as per the UN resolutions and Lord Mounbatten's memoirs and notes, the ascession was perfectly legal. So its not as ridiculous and some people might wish to be. They may not like it, but from the legal point of view Gilgit Baltistan and Pakistani Kashmir are suppose to have been handed over to Indian authorities.

this was then suppose to have mande the GoI enforce a plebescite once Pakistnai nationals and tribal forces had withdrawn from that area.


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## RollingStones

RamGorur said:


> Geelani sahab, as long as you shout Islamic slogans and hoist Pakistani flags, the international community will remain silent. They wouldn't touch you even with a 100 feet barge pole.



I agree. Once the word Islam is used or green flags are seen, that section will be seen as rogue. Kashmiris need to learn from Palestinians. Dont use green flags or turn into a Islamic movement. Keep it a secular movement by the intelligentsia.

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## IceCold

back me up said:


> sure. one guy speaks for the whole country



No majority of you speak the same thing, which shows the popular mindset in India.


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## gogbot

And Why would India possible ever do that.

When we say integral part of the nation we state it as fact , there is no changing that no matter how many people disagree.

Indian negotiating point has been absolute for 60 years now, so has Pakistan's why would that change now ?

India has realized long back that the only way to change the status quo is by force. And since thankfully the babus are not interested in a nuclear war , there is a willingness to draw the border along the LOC.

Unless Pakistan is prepared to use Military force it wont get Kashmir ever. That is reality.

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## kingdurgaking

No way kashmir will be detached from india.. India has already spent lot of time, money, sacrificed lot of life.. there wont be any turn back after this.. It is nearly impossible.. If pakistan has to get JK by paying a price then it will be enormous ... It will have to sell itself to get it...


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## HAIDER

silent hill said:


> indians are speaking and laughing while kashmiris are inhumanely butchered there, stop talking abt human rights and minority rights u stupid arses if u cant do it in the first place..



Brother don't use such type of lingo. Give respect to others opinion. That's one of the beauty of this forum.

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## SpArK

*Accession with Pakistan Geelanis 1st choice*

SRINAGAR; Sept 25: Syed Ali Shah Geelani today reiterated that his preferred personal choice for the future of Jammu and Kashmir is its accession with Pakistan but he would ultimately go by consensus final decision, if and when that comes about.

In an interview with NEWSX TV channels Seema Mustafa, the hardline separatist leader defended his first option on three main counts: That the option of independent J&K was not viable as India, Pakistan and China were not in favour of the idea and without their collective support this proposition was neither feasible nor sustainable; that the UN resolution limiting the choice of accession between India and Pakistan continued to remain in force and that our bitter experience of Indian occupation leaves us to the only other course of accession with Pakistan.

Asked if his stand would not mean disunity within the separatist camp, Geelani argued that the ongoing movement was unidirectional because it aimed at freedom from Indian occupation over which everyone was in agreement, including Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Yasin Malik. Only after achieving this objective, if there is consensus on independent Kashmir he would fall in line. But he felt that that would not be a viable proposition.

He ruled any dialogue with India until Indian government accepted disputed nature of J&K and agreed to resolve the issue through trilateral not bilateral talks.

Geelani claimed that the dialogue has nothing to do with mainstream parties as they had no problem with the existing state of affairs. Minorities in the state also have no problem with India, he argued. But majority is not satisfied and has been agitating and making sacrifices to free itself from occupation. Meaningful dialogue would thus be limited to that amongst India, Pakistan and those representing genuine sentiments of the majority.

[Kashmir Times]


Kashmir Watch :: In-depth coverage on Kashmir conflict

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## Areesh

Nice response from Pakistani foreign office. A nice way to brush aside the rants of integrity in a suitable manner.


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## hecj

Areesh said:


> Nice response from Pakistani foreign office. A nice way to brush aside the rants of integrity in a suitable manner.



india have made an habit to listen this n ignoring this.y dont u read the same news in which krishna saying firstly to vacate your kashmir first and this is indian matter.


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## Areesh

Nice article to answer the dumb demands like this one by this Krishna guy and others like him to shut their mouths and get lost.


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## RajmaChawal

VermillionTilak said:


> Source please



Source hyperlink is embedded in the headline!


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## RajmaChawal

Regular diplomatic rant by two disgruntled parties involved in myriad of issues entailing in a huge trust deficit.

I'm getting bored!


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## aristocrat

> consensus final decision


Ahhh hypocrites.if they evr wanted to go by consensus of the people in jammu and kashmir they would have abandoned their stance long a go.


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## EjazR

*news.outlookindia.com | Finally, Centre Announces an Eight-Point Plan for J&K*

The visit of the all-party delegation to Srinagar seems to have had some effect. Many of the suggestions given by them form part of the important new initiative announced by the government after the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) met here today.

Announcing an eight-point Kashmir formula, the Centre today said a Group of Interlocutors led by an eminent person will hold "sustained dialogue" with all sections of Jammu and Kashmir and also review deployment of security forces in the Valley, especially in Srinagar.

Unveiling a package of measures approved by the Cabinet Committee of Security(CCS) at its meeting here in a bid to deal with the civil unrest in the Kashmir Valley, Home Minister P Chidambaram said the state Government will be advised to review the notification of areas as "Disturbed Areas". The unrest has claimed the lives of 105 persons since June 10.

The 30-minute CCS meeting was presided by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

Briefing reporters after the meeting, Chidambaram did not elaborate whether the review of the Disturbed Areas notification was a prelude to any phased withdrawal of the contentious Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) from certain areas of the Valley.

J&K Chief Minister Omar Abdullah welcomed the Centre's initiative saying it is a positive development and must lead to a resolution to all political issues of Jammu and Kashmir.

The CCS decisions were taken after it reviewed the situation in the Valley and considered the report of the recent visit of the 36-member all-party delegation to J and K submitted by Chidambaram, who had led the team.

In a bid to reach out to the masses, the Centre also advised the J&K government to release students and youth who have been arrested or detained for stone pelting and similar violations of law during the Valley unrest, and withdraw all charges against them.

The state governmetn has also been advised to review cases of all Public Safety Act(PSA) detenues and withdraw detention orders in appropriate cases.

"Government will appoint a Group of Interlocutors under the Chairmanship of an eminent person to begin the process of sustained dialogue with political parties, groups, students, civil society," Chidambaram said.

However, he did not say the exact composition of the group and skirted the question and said "it can be either one plus two or one plus three...We will see."

The CCS decided to advice the state government to immediately convene a meeting of the Unified Command and review the deployment of the security forces in Kashmir valley, especially at Srinagar, with particular reference to descale bunkers and check points in the summer capital and other towns, the Home Minister said.

Chidambaram said Government will grant ex-gratia of Rs five lakh to the family of each of those killed in civil disturbances in Kashmir since June 11.

The all-party team had met many delegations in the Valley who had laid a special stress on reducing the presence of security forces at least in Srinagar and other major towns.

Sources said if the state Government decides to withdraw the disturbed area act from some areas, the AFSPA will have to go automatically.

On the issue of releasing people detained during the unrest, Chidambaram made it clear that there were only 245 people arrested or detained by the state government out of whom 84 were in judicial custody, 110 in police custody and 51 detained under the PSA.

With education taking a hit during the three-and-a-half month unrest, the Centre requested the state government to take steps to immediately reopen all schools, colleges and universities.

Special classes should be also conducted and efforts should be made to ensure examinations are conducted on schedule for the current academic year, the home minister said.

Chidamabram said a Rs 100 crore additional central assistance would be made available to the state government for improving infrastructure in educational institutions.

As part of the eight-point initiative, Chidambaram said two Special Task Forces--one each for Jammu region and Ladakh region--will be appointed to examine the developmental needs of the two regions, with particular reference to deficiencies in infrastructure and make suitable recommendations.

Later in a brief interaction with the reporters, Chidambaram refused to take any questions on AFSPA and said "let the state government first conduct the review."

On being asked if the disturbed areas act was withdrawn by the Unified Headquarters, will that lead to a similar fate to AFSPA, Chidambaram said, "I cannot say. I will have to wait for review."

He said as a matter of "prudence and past practice", the Unified Command advises the state government before a discussion with the Centre could begin.

Following is the formal announcement of the decisions taken by the CCS.

1. Appoint a group of interlocutors under the chairmanship of an Eminent person to begin the process of a sustained dialogue with all sections of the people of Jammu & Kashmir, including political parties/groups, youth and student organizations, civil society organizations and other stakeholders.

2. Advise the State Government to immediately release all students and youth detained or arrested for stone pelting or similar violations of law and to withdraw the charges against such students and youth.

3. Advise the State Government to immediately review the cases of all PSA detenues and withdraw the detention orders in appropriate cases.

4. Request the State Government to immediately convene a meeting of the Unified Command and to review the deployment of security forces in the Kashmir Valley, especially Srinagar, with particular reference to de-scaling the number of bunkers, check-points etc. in Srinagar and other towns, and to review the notification of areas as &#8216;disturbed areas&#8217;.

5. Grant ex-gratia relief to the families of the deceased persons at Rs. 5 lakhs per person killed in the civil disturbances since June 11, 2010.

6. Appoint two Special Task Forces, one each for Jammu region and Ladakh region, to examine the developmental needs of the two regions, with particular reference to deficiencies in infrastructure and make suitable recommendations.

7. Request State Government to take steps to immediately reopen all schools, colleges, universities and other educational institutions; hold special classes/lectures, if necessary; and to ensure that the examinations for the current academic year (2010-11) are conducted.

8. Provide to the State Government a sum of Rs. 100 Crore as Additional Central Assistance (ACA) in order to make grants to schools and colleges for improvements and additions to the existing infrastructure such as class rooms, auditorium, laboratory, library, play ground, toilet complex etc


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## RajmaChawal

*Accession with Pakistan Geelanis 1st choice*: Only goes to show how poorly connected this guy is to the very people he claims to represent!

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## Kompromat

The people should have the final say.

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## silent hill

RajmaChawal said:


> *Accession with Pakistan Geelanis 1st choice*: Only goes to show how poorly connected this guy is to the very people he claims to represent!



so all the congregassion he gathers is actually just dummies standing there??


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## back me up

gogbot said:


> And Why would India possible ever do that.
> 
> When we say integral part of the nation we state it as fact , there is no changing that no matter how many people disagree.
> 
> Indian negotiating point has been absolute for 60 years now, so has Pakistan's why would that change now ?
> 
> India has realized long back that the only way to change the status quo is by force. And since thankfully the babus are not interested in a nuclear war , there is a willingness to draw the border along the LOC.
> 
> *Unless Pakistan is prepared to use Military force it wont get Kashmir ever. That is reality.*



they tried it twice. what did they gain?

negotiation is the only way

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## aristocrat

^^^no he doesnt.But he's talking about *Jammu* and kashmir isnt he.


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## trident2010

He made a wrong choice .. ooppss. Rejected !!

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## silent hill

trident2010 said:


> He made a wrong choice .. ooppss. Rejected !!



well its upto kashmiris and not bharatis

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## somebozo

So as per indian logic he is a proven Pakistani / ISI / Non-State actor?


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## InPhilTraitor

silent hill said:


> well its upto kashmiris and not bharatis



we will decide, who will decide.. Geelani for sure does not decide..

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## Repentant

silent hill said:


> so all the congregassion he gathers is actually just dummies standing there??



crores kee abaadi mein agar kuch ek hazaar ikatthe kar bhi liye toh kaun si badi baat hai?


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## silent hill

tu kia pura india independence day manane bahr nikal jata hai kia??

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## Repentant

silent hill said:


> tu kia pura india independence day manane bahr nikal jata hai kia??



*Poora India azaadi ke liye nahin lad raha!*


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## dabong1

I totally agree with Mr Geelani that kashmir should be part of pakistan

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## dabong1

aristocrat said:


> Ahhh hypocrites.if they evr wanted to go by consensus of the people in jammu and kashmir they would have abandoned their stance long a go.



If your so sure about your stance that the majority favour india ,then you guys would have no problem winning a vote on the issue of kashmir.....or is then when your hypocrisy is exposed!

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## kingdurgaking

heeee huuuuu huuuu... Mr Geelani is one comedy piece .... When his kins and family are away from valley who are not struggling for JK independence he has got no right to talk about JK independence..Let his family members shed a drop of blood for the valley then we can listen to him.. until then ask him to .. ask some senior person in JK to talk ... Ask this kid to stay at home.. Instead of him, Pakistan have got rights to speak about JK independence as they have shed lot of blood

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## dabong1

RollingStones said:


> I agree. Once the word Islam is used or green flags are seen, that section will be seen as rogue. Kashmiris need to learn from Palestinians. Dont use green flags or turn into a Islamic movement. Keep it a secular movement by the intelligentsia.



Well the "christian" slant worked east timor and the basic crux of the matter in kashmir is that the muslim majority areas where supposed to go to pakistan during the partition......so in essence it has everything to do with islam.
By having a strictly secular set up it got the palestinians nowhere ,it was only the "islamic" oriented Hamas and hezbollah of lebanon that have been able to put up resistance against isreal and the islamic leaning of the mujahideen that defeated the russians.
Trying to appease the west by not showing the green flag has never worked.

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## dabong1

kingdurgaking said:


> When his kins and family are away from valley who are not struggling for JK independence he has got no right to talk about JK independence..Let his family members shed a drop of blood for the valley then we can listen to him.. until then ask him to



Does the same criteria fit the indian leadership that you demand of Geelani?




kingdurgaking said:


> ask some senior person in JK to talk .



I can tell you right now that the only thing the kashmiris want to talk about is for indians to quit kashmir.




kingdurgaking said:


> Instead of him, Pakistan have got rights to speak about JK independence as they have shed lot of blood



Yeah i forgot that pakistan sent the army into IOK and has killed hundreds of thousands during the past decade.

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## justanobserver

*Geelani to parents: Dont send children to school *

With educational institutions all set to reopen on Monday in the Kashmir Valley, the hardline Hurriyat faction, led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani, on Sunday asked parents not to send their wards to schools and colleges.

No right thinking person can deny the importance of education in society, but to think that they (government) are concerned about the future of our children is like a mad mans dream, Mr. Geelani said in a statement here.

The Hurriyat leader alleged most of the youths killed in the ongoing unrest in the Valley were students.

Many more were injured and hundreds were languishing in jails, he further alleged.

Mr. Geelani appealed to people to strictly observe civil curfew on Monday when schools and colleges would resume their normal functioning in the Valley.

The separatist leader also appealed to teachers and the non-teaching staff to stay at home.

Education system has suffered immense damage during the ongoing unrest and imposition of curfew in Kashmir.

On Saturday, the hardline Hurriyat faction rejected the Centres eight-point formula to de-escalate the current turmoil in Kashmir terming it as an eye wash. 


--------------------------------------------------------

 Mr. Geelani does whats best for the Kashmiris eh?

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## Rafael

kingdurgaking said:


> *heeee huuuuu huuuu... Mr Geelani is one comedy piece* .... When his kins and family are away from valley who are not struggling for JK independence he has got no right to talk about JK independence..Let his family members shed a drop of blood for the valley then we can listen to him.. until then ask him to .. ask some senior person in JK to talk ... Ask this kid to stay at home.. Instead of him, Pakistan have got rights to speak about JK independence as they have shed lot of blood




At the moment its you who is acting like a comedian


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## karan.1970

Tactical error by Mr Gilani.. He shouldnt have said it.. Damaged his own cause by diluting the slogan of Aazadi...

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## democracyspeaks

Its futile debating, what gilani wants means nothing, no Indian government will part with kashmir. 
If we go back to history Kashmir has always been a part of India.Kindly google & you will find it.
Talks, killings of the stone throwers (good thing) will continue.

lasltly we will not give kashmir no matter what others want.


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## Evil Flare



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## somebozo

*India is Banned..along with Israel!Though both claim to be "secular"*

*India, *which has the world's third largest Muslim population, has shown an interest in joining the OIC as an observer nation.[39] *While India's candidacy is supported by some OIC members including Saudi Arabia,[40] Pakistan's strong opposition and threat to boycott the OIC have led to India's inclusion into the OIC being blocked. The Pakistan Foreign Office argued that India's inclusion in OIC would be against the rules of OIC, which state that an aspirant should not have an ongoing conflict with a member state* 

*Philippines -* The Philippine government has made attempts to join the OIC, but this is opposed by the Moro National Liberation Front, an OIC observer located in the Philippines. The MLF claims that Philippine membership is unnecessary[citation needed]. In 2009, the country's bid has received stronger support and has been advocated by Indonesia, Iran, Malaysia, and the United Arab Emirates, among others.[42][43][44][45]


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## Repentant

somebozo said:


> *India is Banned..along with Israel!Though both claim to be "secular"*
> 
> *India, *which has the world's third largest Muslim population, has shown an interest in joining the OIC as an observer nation.[39] *While India's candidacy is supported by some OIC members including Saudi Arabia,[40] Pakistan's strong opposition and threat to boycott the OIC have led to India's inclusion into the OIC being blocked. The Pakistan Foreign Office argued that India's inclusion in OIC would be against the rules of OIC, which state that an aspirant should not have an ongoing conflict with a member state*
> 
> *Philippines -* The Philippine government has made attempts to join the OIC, but this is opposed by the Moro National Liberation Front, an OIC observer located in the Philippines. The MLF claims that Philippine membership is unnecessary[citation needed]. In 2009, the country's bid has received stronger support and has been advocated by Indonesia, Iran, Malaysia, and the United Arab Emirates, among others.[42][43][44][45]



Which proves that OIC is not a neutral organisation and hence perfect reason for India to ignore it.

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## hecj

somebozo said:


> *India is Banned..along with Israel!Though both claim to be "secular"*
> 
> *India, *which has the world's third largest Muslim population, has shown an interest in joining the OIC as an observer nation.[39] *While India's candidacy is supported by some OIC members including Saudi Arabia,[40] Pakistan's strong opposition and threat to boycott the OIC have led to India's inclusion into the OIC being blocked. The Pakistan Foreign Office argued that India's inclusion in OIC would be against the rules of OIC, which state that an aspirant should not have an ongoing conflict with a member state*
> 
> *Philippines -* The Philippine government has made attempts to join the OIC, but this is opposed by the Moro National Liberation Front, an OIC observer located in the Philippines. The MLF claims that Philippine membership is unnecessary[citation needed]. In 2009, the country's bid has received stronger support and has been advocated by Indonesia, Iran, Malaysia, and the United Arab Emirates, among others.[42][43][44][45]



this shows that how much pakistan is feared of diplomacy of india.if u have enough power then let india to join n face on grounds.


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## kingdurgaking

dabong1 said:


> Does the same criteria fit the indian leadership that you demand of Geelani?
> 
> I can tell you right now that the only thing the kashmiris want to talk about is for indians to quit kashmir.
> 
> Yeah i forgot that pakistan sent the army into IOK and has killed hundreds of thousands during the past decade.



No it wont fit for Indian leaders... because they are not like Geelani who eats others life for there welfare... Indian leaders eat only others money not others life... 

You can tell what Kashmirs want i cant tell want India wants and nothing is going to change.. JK is an Indian territory and kids like Geelani can only dream... 

And killing people is not new for Pakistan army buddy... they are part of a big conspiracy already

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## kingdurgaking

raheel1 said:


> At the moment its you who is acting like a comedian



May be you can feel so.. but a person with real heart will think the other way.. killing his own people by getting money from Pakistan and brain washing youths what do you call those people "desh drogi" ?


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## somebozo

He should be made president of Pakistan ..he speaks logic even tho he is not a Pakistani politician he has great pain for Pakistan!



> Tactical error by Mr Gilani.. He shouldnt have said it.. Damaged his own cause by diluting the slogan of Aazadi...



Tactial error by thousands of them??
If everyone appears wrong then there is something wrong with one to begin with!

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## kingdurgaking

somebozo said:


> He should be made president of Pakistan ..he speaks logic even tho he is not a Pakistani politician he has great pain for Pakistan!
> 
> 
> 
> Tactial error by thousands of them??
> If everyone appears wrong then there is something wrong with one to begin with!



Yes he should be made president of pakistan... Today he got money from pakistan and he brain washed the youths around him.. Tomorrow he will find there is no money in pakistan and he will get money from India and he will sell the entire pakistan to India.. 

dude are you nuts?? support a right person... this person has no credibility ..... he is not taking the youth of JK in right direction... how can you think such a man to become president of a country.. is president post a cheap thing for you????

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## HAIDER

SRINAGAR: The separatist leader who has organised months of protests in Indian-administered Kashmir dismissed Sunday an offer from the India government for fresh talks and a security review in the state.

The proposals were put forward by Home Minister P. Chidambaram after he led an all-party mission last week to the Muslim-majority region, which has been shaken by pro-independence protests and strict curfews since June.

It is a time-gaining exercise and unrealistic. It is aimed to hoodwink the international community, Syed Ali Shah Geelani told reporters in Srinagar.

If rulers in New Delhi believe that by releasing a few students and providing ex gratia relief to the families of martyrs they can reduce the alienation (of Kashmiris), they are wrongly mistaken, he said.

Chidambaram's eight-point plan was the first major initiative by the government to end clashes between stone-throwing crowds and security forces in which 107 civilians have been shot and killed.

The home minister said a group of interlocutors would be appointed to reach out to Kashmiris in a bid to calm the protests, the largest since a separatist insurgency erupted in 1989.

Most of those killed have been young men and teenagers shot by police and paramilitary troops firing live ammunition and rubber bullets.

Chidambaram said the state government would be told to free 255 protesters jailed for throwing stones at security forces.

Authorities will also consider reducing the security presence in the heavily militarised Kashmir valley, and will review some areas of emergency military law imposed in the region.

Rights groups have long pushed for repeal of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, which gives security forces the power to open fire, detain suspects and confiscate property.

We think these steps should address the concerns of different sections of Jammu and Kashmir, including (those of) the protesters, said Chidambaram.

Moderate separatist said they were discussing their response to the government package.

Kashmir is divided between Pakistan and India, which both claim the region in full.

The dispute over the region has triggered two of the rival nations' three wars since partition of the subcontinent in 1947.
DAWN.COM | World | Syed Ali Geelani rejects Indian govt?s offer


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## kingdurgaking

justanobserver said:


> *Geelani to parents: Don&#8217;t send children to school *
> 
> With educational institutions all set to reopen on Monday in the Kashmir Valley, the hardline Hurriyat faction, led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani, on Sunday asked parents not to send their wards to schools and colleges.
> 
> &#8220;No right thinking person can deny the importance of education in society, but to think that they (government) are concerned about the future of our children is like a mad man&#8217;s dream,&#8221; Mr. Geelani said in a statement here.
> 
> The Hurriyat leader alleged most of the youths killed in the ongoing unrest in the Valley were students.
> 
> Many more were injured and hundreds were languishing in jails, he further alleged.
> 
> Mr. Geelani appealed to people to strictly observe civil curfew on Monday when schools and colleges would resume their normal functioning in the Valley.
> 
> The separatist leader also appealed to teachers and the non-teaching staff to stay at home.
> 
> Education system has suffered immense damage during the ongoing unrest and imposition of curfew in Kashmir.
> 
> On Saturday, the hardline Hurriyat faction rejected the Centre&#8217;s eight-point formula to de-escalate the current turmoil in Kashmir terming it as an &#8220;eye wash&#8221;.
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Mr. Geelani does whats best for the Kashmiris eh?



A clear conspiracy by Mr Geelani to keep JK in dark and make JK a dark world by denying education to youths.. my god this person is nuts... when his kids have got good education and have settled in good position merely by only education this person has no rights to talk about others education.. If he was a real leader he should have donated one of his Kin into JK protest.. did he do that?? ..


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## Jackdaws

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Are u simply dumb or playing dumb?
> According to ur(indian) formula state rulers are to deciede fate of their states right?
> 
> Then? Hyderabad and Junagarh were STATES with MUSLIM RULERS! Who wanted to merge with PAKISTAN!! And u occupied them....
> 
> Thts state ruler formula of urs only comes in handy when u talk about kashmir! while like blind hipocrites u forget abt these states(hyd and junahgarh)... Lahore was neither a state and had muslim majority,same goes for tharparker.....
> 
> P.S=Get a formal education and research before posting ur B.S RANTS.



You need an education - either formal or informal will do. Hyderabad wanted to remain an independent country and it had a right to do so. Kashmir had the right to remain independent and it too had a right to do so.


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## HAIDER

India is shooting its own foot. Pakistan and China wants to keep India busy in Kashmir ,on the other side of political coin, India is losing its grip on other states. 20 percent of India is lawless. Communist are slowly taking over huge chunk of India. Where army need to play its role to control armed insurgency is not thier. Indian army is totally concentrating on Kashmir and few sensitive Indo-China post.


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## aristocrat

> If your so sure about your stance that the majority favour india ,then you guys would have no problem winning a vote on the issue of kashmir.....or is then when your hypocrisy is exposed!


Please explain 'wiining a vote on kashmir issue'
People like geelani represent only a part of kashmir.people in Jammu and ladakh
have no problem being with india.


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## Rajababu

Who cares what this GEELANI jokers First or last choice is. 

The Hindu : News / National : Geelani to parents: Don&#8217;t send children to school


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## Storm Force

I think India the nation and its 1.2 billion people treat KASHMIR as they would any other indian State ie their sovereign territory.

Territory and people regardless of ethnic background and religion that will be defended by 1 million plus professional soldiers and air men with a multi billon dollar budget to keep them ready with the most modern and deadly weapons known to man. 

Kashmir and the people that reside their will remain indian I DON,T THINK anything can change that...

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## KS

Areesh said:


> Nice response from Pakistani foreign office. A nice way to brush aside the rants of integrity in a suitable manner.



Nice,yet empty rhetoric aimed for local consumption.What does it change on ground.? NILCH.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

http://



indian OCCUPIED KASHMIR.


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## KS

dabong1 said:


> I totally agree with Mr Geelani that kashmir should be part of pakistan



So that makes two of u in a total number of 1.2 billion.Well all the best though the odds doesnt seem to be in your favour.

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## toppys

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> http://
> 
> 
> 
> indian OCCUPIED KASHMIR.



They got the flag in the right direction


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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> Nice,yet empty rhetoric aimed for local consumption.What does it change on ground.? NILCH.



No it was meant to give some one the reality check to keep it's rant of "Kashmir is our integral part" to itself. We won't buy it.


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## Repentant

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> http://
> 
> 
> 
> *indian* OCCUPIED KASHMIR.



But I see no Indian flag out there!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Karthic Sri said:


> Nice,yet empty rhetoric aimed for *local consumption*.What does it change on ground.? *NILCH*.



Nice try to satisfy ur ego.... 
Foriegn offices dont issue statements for public consumptions like local politicians they convey to the world.
FM. Qureshi goes press confrence wth foriegn media,askin USA to put pressure on india... 

Ever wonder why indians themselves are offering unconditional talks on everything including indian OCCUPIED KASHMIR.... while just recently ur FM.Krishna didnt even have the mandate to talk on such issues?

Killing Kashmiris wont help u... It wont stop... SLOGANS LIKE: BHOKA NANGA HINDU ISTAN...JAN SAY PYARA PAKISTAN will always be heard in IOK...








Also its ZILCH not NILCH.)


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## Omar1984

trident2010 said:


> He made a wrong choice .. ooppss. Rejected !!



The most effective way to find out what Kashmiris want is hold a referendum in Azad Kashmir, Gilgit-Baltistan, and India Occupied Jammu & Kashmir and let the people of these areas decide if they want to be part of Pakistan or India.

Nehru, india's first prime minister, promised the people of Kashmir a referendum.

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## barcelona

WHF said:


> MR Basit, the so called Org UN is a spine less one.It can only pass resolutions and that too one weaker ones.Heck when it comes to internal matters India cares none not USA nor EU....
> 
> Toh Basit sahib aap hindustaan se ye paigam apney mulk or waseer e azam ko de ki *""jiski laathi uski bhais""*..Kashmir chahiye toh pehle kashmir hamare haaton se cheeney ki haisiyat pe aao.



I think one should refrain from this language of jiski lathi uski bhais think if some chinese member said this regardin aksai chin n shaksgam valley.............................................


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## barcelona

On to truth well line which is drawn remain drawn through kashmir no way there is goin to be any change in status quo of kashmir its upto people n govt. to hammer out a solution within this framework...................................................


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> No it was meant to give some one the reality check to keep it's rant of "Kashmir is our integral part" to itself. We won't buy it.



The arguement (or rant as you call it) is not for your consumption. For India, Pakistan does not rank high enough in the list of priorities that we would want Pakistan to agree to our arguement. Agree or not, there is very little you can do anything about it..

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## karan.1970

somebozo said:


> He should be made president of Pakistan ..he speaks logic even tho he is not a Pakistani politician he has great pain for Pakistan!


Thats your business. Grant him citizenship and make him your president. 



somebozo said:


> Tactial error by thousands of them??
> If everyone appears wrong then there is something wrong with one to begin with!



Yes.. The moment accession to Pakistan comes into equation, the azadi flavor goes out of the window...


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## trident2010

*Kashmir is internal matter of India: SM Krishna*






External Affairs Minister SM Krishna has asked Pakistan to end its illegal occupation of some parts of the state before advising New Delhi
Krishna who on a 10-day visit to attend the annual UN General Assembly meeting said "Kashmir is an internal matter of India."

Pointing out that Pakistan is in "illegal occupation of some parts of Jammu Kashmir i.e. Pak Occupied Kashmir", Krishna said, "it is desirable that they vacate that and then start advising India as to how to go about doing things in Kashmir." 

"We have taken certain actions in terms of assisting what needs to be done in Kashmir. An all party delegation has just gone back to Delhi and they have had wide ranging discussions across the board from all shades of opinion.

"Indian government is fully conscious of its responsibilities. Institutional and individual mechanism will be put in place so that the genuine grievances of Kashmir and the people of Kashmir will be addressed squarely and directly," Krishna told a TV news channel.


SM Krishna To Pak | Stop Illegal Occupation | UN General Assembly Meeting | United States - Oneindia News


----------------------------------------------------

This is the official stance of Govt. of India. 
Now do what anyone want to do .. lolzz

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## SpArK




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## Illusive

Does pakistan holds elections in P.O.K . They do or not, there is an elected govt. in kashmir, and its in India's full authority to take actions in the matters of the state. Kashmir since independence has been an integral part of India and will remain in the future too. Any foreign country trying to influence matters in India's affair or interfering should be considered hostile, for the security of the state and questioning the sovereignty of our country on this issue.


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> The arguement (or rant as you call it) is not for your consumption. *For India, Pakistan does not rank high enough in the list of priorities that we would want Pakistan to agree to our arguement. Agree or not, there is very little you can do anything about it..*



Or in simple words India can't do anything to make Pakistan agree with your rant. What is your priority or what not, it isn't a matter for us. 

Anyways whatever satisfies you, IOK doesn't belong to India and that's what we believe in.


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## Urbanized Greyhound

Areesh said:


> *Or in simple words India can't do anything to make Pakistan agree with your rant. What is your priority or what not, it isn't a matter for us.
> *
> Anyways whatever fills your boat, IOK doesn't belong to India and that's what we believe in.




Ok then what is the fuss all about ? ....We aren't trying to draw international attention to Kashmir by weeping and wailing at every given opportunity 

to " Stop treating Kashmir as an Integral part of India" and so on....

even after knowing full well we dont give a half pennys worth to what you think or not......

If your Govt or even your military can do anything that successfully changes the status quo .....the way we amply demonstrated in 1971.... .....you are welcome to try......

as it is we have become rather accustomed to strictly dealing with "Cross border militancy , cross border financed stone pelting, military attacks by regular forces ....even a few feeble diplomatic noises"..........hence your foreign office's frustration....well enjoy cracking brick walls with your head ....its not our brains that are gonna get affected.....

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## Sinnerman108

Urbanized Greyhound said:


> Ok then what is the fuss all about ? ....We aren't trying to draw international attention to Kashmir by weeping and wailing at every given opportunity
> 
> to " Stop treating Kashmir as an Integral part of India" and so on....
> 
> even after knowing full well we dont give a half pennys worth to what you think or not......
> 
> If your Govt or even your military can do anything that successfully changes the status quo .....the way we amply demonstrated in 1971.... .....you are welcome to try......
> 
> as it is we have become rather accustomed to strictly dealing with "Cross border militancy , cross border financed stone pelting, military attacks by regular forces ....even a few feeble diplomatic noises"..........hence your foreign office's frustration....well enjoy cracking brick walls with your head ....its not our brains that are gonna get affected.....



Tch Tch come come now ....
don't let go the shreds of reality.

Fact of the matter is , the Indian government is heavily sensitive to what Pakistan says and thinks.
Try counting the soldiers in Hindustan occupied Kashmir you will know what I mean.

Don't self molest your self about 1971, The indian army at maximum could only use all it's force to ease the creation of bangladesh *AFTER a civil war weakened Pakistan*.

you should know very well how you had almost lost Punjab, had it not been for that traitor Benazir who sold out the Sikhs.

do not forget, that theatre still has the fuel to self sustain it self.

The Indian machinery has not got accustomed to any thing study for example Kargil.

The Indian machinery failed again to support the Tamils.

Remember, what you see as progress (economic) I see as a glass house.
The stakes are higher for India to sustain things and not let any turbulence get in way; for it it does the whole card house will come down.

Before you reply; I will suggest you read this carefully and talk to some economists and understand.


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Or in simple words India can't do anything to make Pakistan agree with your rant. What is your priority or what not, it isn't a matter for us.
> 
> Anyways whatever satisfies you, IOK doesn't belong to India and *that's what we believe in*.



What Pakistan believes in or not means diddly squat to India... And I am sure, its the same other way around too.. So agreeing or not doesnt have any impact.

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## somebozo

kingdurgaking said:


> Yes he should be made president of pakistan... Today he got money from pakistan and he brain washed the youths around him.. *Tomorrow he will find there is no money in pakistan and he will get money from India and he will sell the entire pakistan to India.. *



If thats the reallity and soo easy as 1+1=2 then man GoI is really a dumb as turd!

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## Dr sim

geelani is forgetting how pakistan treated bangladeshis I guess!


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## mr42O

I was looking for Kashmir front line page on facebook were i got latest news from whats going in Kashmir. Kashmiri ppl uploaded pics , vidoes etc taken with mobile etc on that page. Guess what its gone from facebook.

Thats freedom of speech west talking about ? Hiding truth about whats going on in Kashmir ? How can India get page closed ? and no one in western media even noticed that ?


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## justanobserver

We own Facebook AND Wikipedia muhahahahhaha !


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## karan.1970

I am sure it would have been moved..Look again and you will find it


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## StingRoy

I can access the page... could be blocked in your region. Check with your ISP


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## Omar1984

*Victims kin say want justice, not money*



The Centre has announced it would pay compensation of Rs 5 lakh each to families of the 106 people, most of them teenage boys, killed by police and CRPF in Kashmir in the past three months. But the families are not sure if they will take the money. 


Some of the families say they dont want the money; they only want to see those who killed their children brought to justice. Is the ex-gratia going to get my son back, asks Mohammad Ashraf Parray, an auto-rickshaw driver whose 14-year-old son Irshad Ahmad was killed on August 30 near Sherbagh in Anantnag. *My son was killed deliberately by the police. I want justice, nothing else. *


The compensation, Parray says, will do no good. *I dont want more young boys to die. Instead of the package, the government should address the real issue, he says. *


Abdul Qayoom, whose 17-year-old son Umar was tortured to death, is undecided whether to take the money. I am still grieving the death of my only son..., he says. *For me, the first priority is to see that the police officers who tortured my son to death are punished. I have already moved the court. *

Adil Ramzans family says they wont take the money. Adil was killed by police and CRPF men at Pattan on July 30. *My nephew was killed because he was asking for Azadi. Money is no answer to our demand,* says Adils uncle Mohammad Ismal, who runs a grocery at Palhalan which has seen nine deaths since June 11. *For us, justice only means the right to self-determination.*

Family of Ishtiyaq Ahmad Khanday, 16, who was killed on June 29, says money wont heal their wounds. *My cousin and three other boys were shot in the compound of our house. He wasnt part of any protest, but still he was killed, says his cousin Asif. We know the policemen who killed him. For us, the biggest compensation will be if they are punished.*


Victims kin say want justice, not money


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## Tuahaa

Woah... shooting teenagers even though they weren't a part of any protest...


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## KS

The age of the victims 14,17 raises a distressing question - what were these boys who ought to have been studying 8 th and 11 grades in school respectively doing in the violent protests/stone-pelting/arson which caused their death.?

Are they being used as human shields by the other protestors/separatist leaders so that their death can be used to generate more anger and consequently the cycle of violence continues ?

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## StingRoy

The question also goes back to their parents as to what were they thinking of allowing such young kids to be outside when they know that the situation is volatile and that anything can happen.

PS: I am in no way trying to justify their killing. Just trying to make a point to their parents.

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## KS

First OIC should ask the Sudanese President (a member of OIC) to stop the genocide going on in Darfur , then ask the Gulf countries to provide a semblance of "Human rights" to their citizens who are nothing but glorified slaves of their monarchs,then ask the Turks to stop butchering the Kurds and then if everything is solved come to lecture India on Kashmir.



somebozo said:


> *India is Banned..along with Israel!Though both claim to be "secular"*



Excellent ....thank you OIC for making the job of the general Indian citizen much easier.

BTW doesnt it look a bit ridiculous that a 87&#37; non-muslim country wanted to be a part of OIC in the first place.?


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## EjazR

*Kashmir Images :: Details*

_ Majority wants JK to be independent_

Srinagar: A day after Hurriyat (G) chairman Syed Ali Geelani told a private TV channel that his first choice was that Jammu and Kashmir should accede to Pakistan, pro-independence Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) today asserted that majority of Jammu and Kashmir wants to see the state as an independent entity.
Reacting to Geelanis assertion that independence was not a practicable solution, JKLF leaders  Bashir Ahmad Bhat, Ghulam Rasool Eidhi, Noor Mohammad Kalwal, Showkat Bakshi, Mohammad Iqbal Gandroo, Javed Ahmad Zargar, Mir Mohammad Zaman, Mohammad Yasin Bhat and others said that several policy groups and media organizations of world have already conduced surveys and studies which have indicated that 85 per cent of the people want independence both from India and Pakistan. _(Comment-Ofcourse this is only in the valley where 55% of the population of J&K lives, Jammu and Ladakh are similarly pro-India)_
In a statement issued here, the JKLF leaders, without naming Geelani said that a leader of the movement, in an interview to an Indian TV channel had described the option of independence as impracticable.
The option of independence is not only practicable but a realistic solution to the long pending issue of Jammu and Kashmir, the statement said, adding if granted independence, water and other resources of Jammu and Kashmir would make it a self reliant state that can rub shoulders with other free nations of the world.
The concept of independent Kashmir was introduced by Baba-i-Quom Mohammad Maqbool Bhat who sacrificed his life for the ideal and right from 1988 JKLF united the entire nation under the independence slogan, the statement said.
The statement said that JKLF will respect the peoples verdict whether they vote for India, Pakistan or complete independence and added that the leaders should not issue statements that create confusion among the ranks of the people.

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## StingRoy

So now we will see another round of conflict between these two leaders?

What about the people in P0K.. what do they want? Are they considering to include them in their decisions as well?


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## Kharavela

EjazR said:


> *Kashmir Images :: Details*
> 
> _ Majority wants JK to be independent_
> 
> Srinagar: A day after Hurriyat (G) chairman Syed Ali Geelani told a private TV channel that his first choice was that Jammu and Kashmir should accede to Pakistan, pro-independence Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) today asserted that majority of Jammu and Kashmir wants to see the state as an independent entity.
> Reacting to Geelanis assertion that independence was not a practicable solution, JKLF leaders  Bashir Ahmad Bhat, Ghulam Rasool Eidhi, Noor Mohammad Kalwal, Showkat Bakshi, Mohammad Iqbal Gandroo, Javed Ahmad Zargar, Mir Mohammad Zaman, Mohammad Yasin Bhat and others said that several policy groups and media organizations of world have already conduced surveys and studies which have indicated that 85 per cent of the people want independence both from India and Pakistan. _(Comment-Ofcourse this is only in the valley where 55% of the population of J&K lives, Jammu and Ladakh are similarly pro-India)_
> In a statement issued here, the JKLF leaders, without naming Geelani said that a leader of the movement, in an interview to an Indian TV channel had described the option of independence as impracticable.
> The option of independence is not only practicable but a realistic solution to the long pending issue of Jammu and Kashmir, the statement said, adding if granted independence, water and other resources of Jammu and Kashmir would make it a self reliant state that can rub shoulders with other free nations of the world.
> The concept of independent Kashmir was introduced by Baba-i-Quom Mohammad Maqbool Bhat who sacrificed his life for the ideal and right from 1988 JKLF united the entire nation under the independence slogan, the statement said.
> The statement said that JKLF will respect the peoples verdict whether they vote for India, Pakistan or complete independence and added that the leaders should not issue statements that create confusion among the ranks of the people.



I beleive the honesty and sincerity of Yasin Mallick. Although i am indian but i resepect a lot to Yasin and his values. He is the only one honest person in separatist group who is fighting for the cause...


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## EjazR

Omar1984 said:


> Family of Ishtiyaq Ahmad Khanday, 16, who was killed on June 29, says money won&#8217;t heal their wounds. *&#8220;My cousin and three other boys were shot in the compound of our house. He wasn&#8217;t part of any protest, but still he was killed,&#8221; says his cousin Asif. &#8220;We know the policemen who killed him. For us, the biggest compensation will be if they are punished.&#8221;*



This was under investigation and the erring cops have been arrested. Please note that these are local J&K police who are KAshmiri.


*Anantnag killings SIT files charge sheet against cop | Kashmir Awareness*

ANANTNAG, SEP 25 :Special Investigation Team (SIT) of police investigating the alleged cold blooded murder of three youth by the police here in Anantnag today filed a charge-sheet against a constable for his involvement in the killings.


The three youth Shujat-ul-Islam, Ishtiyaq Ahmad Tantray and Imtiyaz
Ahmad were killed by the police in SK colony area of the town on June 29 this year. Government ordered magisterial enquiry to probe the incident while police constituted a SIT to carry out separate
investigation.


Sources said that the SIT yesterday conducted an identification parade of the ten accused cops into the incident at Dak Banglow Khanabal. They said that during the identification parade which was conducted under the supervision of Judicial Magistrate Dooru Farooq Ahmad Bhat , identified a *cop Nisar Ahmad Lone of Budgam.*


*Sources said that SIT today filed a chargesheet against the cop before the Chief Judicial Magistrate Anantnag Mohammad Ashraf. They said that the cop was shifted to the central jail Srinagar and the next date of hearing into the case has been fixed as 07.10.2010.*

Pertinently Judicial enquiry committee headed by the then Assistant Commissioner Revenue (ACR) in its report had indicted five police officials into the incident.

The report had recommended action against five cops including some top officials as per their level of involvement.


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## NWO

Karthic Sri said:


> Are they being used as human shields by the other protestors/separatist leaders so that their death can be used to generate more anger and consequently the cycle of violence continues ?





dezi said:


> The question also goes back to their parents as to what were they thinking of allowing such young kids to be outside when they know that the situation is volatile and that anything can happen.


Not all of them were protesting nor were any being used as human shields:


Omar1984 said:


> Family of Ishtiyaq Ahmad Khanday, 16, who was killed on June 29, says money wont heal their wounds. *My cousin and three other boys were shot in the compound of our house. He wasnt part of any protest, but still he was killed, says his cousin Asif.*





dezi said:


> The question also goes back to their parents as to what were they thinking of *allowing such young kids to be outside* when they know that the situation is volatile and that anything can happen.


And do you except them to never go outside as long as they is some danger? That means that you shouldn't ever go outside because they is always a chance of danger the second you leave your house.


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## EjazR

^^^The fact is that the ISI/PA establishment will not allow an independant J&K to exist. This is one of the core reasons of differences between the Geelani and the Mirwaiz factions.

If you have a chance to read BAsharat Peer's curfewed midnight-his personal account on Kashmir- you will learn how the ISI was responsible for brutally killing and putting down pro-independance and pro-India KAshmiris. The militants were also responsbile for killing Mirwaiz Umar FArooq's father, Sajjad Ghani Lone's father and more recently Mirwaiz Umar FArooq's uncle Fazl-i-Haq Qureshi.

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## Kharavela

EjazR said:


> ^^^The fact is that the ISI/PA establishment will not allow an independant J&K to exist. This is one of the core reasons of differences between the Geelani and the Mirwaiz factions.
> 
> If you have a chance to read BAsharat Peer's curfewed midnight-his personal account on Kashmir- you will learn how the ISI was responsible for brutally killing and putting down pro-independance and pro-India KAshmiris. The militants were also responsbile for killing Mirwaiz Umar FArooq's father, Sajjad Ghani Lone's father and more recently Mirwaiz Umar FArooq's uncle Fazl-i-Haq Qureshi.



Yes I agree with you. I feel if Kashmir separatist provide support to leader like Yasin then Kashmir movement can get some support from the world...The reason is Yasin present himself as non violent statesman rather than other religious fanatic separatist....but i know this will never happen...people of kashmir always fundamentalist in nature.....they always like the leader like G....and others...


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## Agnostic_Indian

NWO said:


> Not all of them were protesting nor were any being used as human shields:
> 
> 
> And do you except them to never go outside as long as they is some danger? That means that you shouldn't ever go outside because they is always a chance of danger the second you leave your house.



Why were those boys still outside in their compound when protest and police firing take place near to their compound. 
and nobody is telling kashmir's to not to go out out side, this restriction is only when there is a big mob violance and police going on, and if they avoid the warning it's their own fault.


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## StingRoy

@NWO..Put some logic in your argument.
If they were your kids would you allow them to go outside in this situation. Would you rather not go if you really have to instead of sending your kids? I know without any hesitation that I would.


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## Omar1984

EjazR said:


> ^^^The fact is that the ISI/PA establishment will not allow an independant J&K to exist. This is one of the core reasons of differences between the Geelani and the Mirwaiz factions.
> 
> If you have a chance to read BAsharat Peer's curfewed midnight-his personal account on Kashmir- you will learn how the ISI was responsible for brutally killing and putting down pro-independance and pro-India KAshmiris. The militants were also responsbile for killing Mirwaiz Umar FArooq's father, Sajjad Ghani Lone's father and more recently Mirwaiz Umar FArooq's uncle Fazl-i-Haq Qureshi.




Where is your proof that ISI was responsible for killings and putting down pro-independence?

Again you indians blame everyting on Pakistan.




*Here is what Mirwaiz Umar Farooq says:*

Interview: Mirwaiz Umar Farooq
&#8216;Kashmir is not an Islamic issue&#8217;

Mirwaiz Maulvi Umar Farooq is a popular figure in Kashmir. He joined politics at a tender age of 17 in 1990 shortly after his father, Mirwaiz Maulana Farooq, was assassinated. Since then Maulvi Umar Farooq has matured enough to comprehend the intricacies of politics. He is a former chairman of the All Party Hurriyat Conference (APHC) and holds a master&#8217;s degree in Islamic Studies. Nasir Husain Peerzadah of The Milli Gazette met the Mirwaiz at his residence in Nageen. Excerpts: 

You joined politics at a very critical juncture when your father was martyred. Was it a choice or compulsion? 
When my father was martyred in May 1990 I was advised by some relatives not to join politics. But looking to the past when our family is seen involved in preaching the message of Islam to Kashmiri Muslims, I had to take the responsibilities albeit reluctantly in the beginning. Later things were left to Allah and I willingly accepted to shoulder the responsibilities thrust upon me and willingly accepted the challenges.

How has the Kashmir issue emerged in your view?
*Kashmir problem emerged at the moment when India and Pakistan came into being. Logically it had to be part of Pakistan. But the conspiracies of Indian leaders coupled with some Kashmiris stopped Kashmir to be a part of Pakistan. So the problem emerged and later the refusal of the right of self determination aggravated the problem further which was promised by Nehru-a promise which could never be fulfilled.*

The Kashmir problem is lingering for a long time. We see other international conflicts heading towards some solutions. Why such a long stalemate for Kashmir?
India is not serious for the resolution of Kashmir issue. Post nuclear scenario demands that the issue be solved amicably in order to ensure peace in the Subcontinent. It would be in the interest of India if the issue is resolved.

How would you highlight the role of the APHC?
The APHC was formed in 1993 when all the religio-political parties came under a single banner to voice for the oppressed Kashmiris. Since then the Conference has been strongly advocating the cause of Kashmiris. It has internationalized the issue to a great extent. It has been granted the observer status by the OIC. I have been the former chairman of APHC. I travelled to many foreign countries pleading for the cause of Kashmiris. So APHC is a potent force.

Why are you not joining hands with the 200-million-strong Indian Muslims so as to be an honourable community in India?
Kashmir is not a Hindu-Muslim case. It is a political and human problem. We have been made to loose our identity. *Indian Muslims were given the chance to determine their fate in 1947. Kashmiris have never felt that they are a part of India. So we cannot be kept as hostages.*

What is your view about a long lasting solution of Kashmir?
*We want the implementation of the UN resolutions which state that the people of Kashmir should be asked to opt for either India or Pakistan.* We also support tripartite talks between India, Pakistan and Kashmiris. The princely state which existed before 1947, all the representatives from all regions of this state should be allowed to discuss in order to reach some amicable solution.

Jammuites and Ladakhis have not joined the movement. Which solution would be applicable to the Kashmir issue?
Well, you see it is not an Islamic issue. Let the people of Jammu and Ladakh be given the option: if they want to join India we cannot stop them. 

Do you favour the division of state and the solution on communal lines?
If that is the only way what can we do? Still then there is support in some regions of Jammu with predominant Muslim population for the movement.

How do you look to the report issued by the Kashmir Study Group based in the US?
A lot of &#8216;solutions&#8217; have been suggested by people. One professor from California suggests some 35 solutions. The Kashmir Study Group suggests a state within state seeking guarantees from both India and Pakistan and urging both the governments to enter into certain international agreements. The report/suggestions would be thoroughly debated and discussed. Yet no official stance has been taken by us.

You were offered talks by India. Any comment?
On one hand, India is suppressing us and on the other hand we are offered to come to table and to talk within the confines of Indian constitution. This is not possible. 


Interview: Mirwaiz Umar Farooq

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## kingdurgaking

somebozo said:


> If thats the reallity and soo easy as 1+1=2 then man GoI is really a dumb as turd!



You think so??... if GoI is really dumb they have successfully kept a comedian at bay without paying a single paise?? .. GoI knows what to spend where.. atleast now we have some people who think better for there country... They have created some education facilities, Job opps etc etc instead of paying to that comedian.. See the difference between GoI and ISI/GoP?


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## HAIDER

Karthic Sri said:


> The age of the victims 14,17 raises a distressing question - what were these boys who ought to have been studying 8 th and 11 grades in school respectively doing in the violent protests/stone-pelting/arson which caused their death.?
> 
> Are they being used as human shields by the other protestors/separatist leaders so that their death can be used to generate more anger and consequently the cycle of violence continues ?



Well, human shield term doesn't fit here. Because nobody is shooting bullet from behind these kids. So, this term is totally nonsense. 
During this whole protest non Indian soldier or policeman died because of bullet. It proves its fight between Indian guns and Freedom fighters stones.


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## kingdurgaking

Dr sim said:


> geelani is forgetting how pakistan treated bangladeshis I guess!



Gelaani is a paid comedian he will forget everything when his Kins are fine...

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## HAIDER

Even its independent Kashmir, still Pakistan in win win situation. OK then do the plebiscite. Evac Indian forces and leave the new country name Kashmir from daily oppression. I think after 100,000 Kashmires death, India is just wasting its time,money and manpower.


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## StingRoy

HAIDER said:


> Well, human shield term doesn't fit here. Because nobody is shooting bullet from behind these kids. So, this term is totally nonsense.


Haider bhai, He used the term human shield to imply that the protesters are putting the kids in the front of them in the mob to face the bullets. 

I am sure if I was a kid playing on the streets and see 10 people throwing stones, I would join them with even more enthusiasm. The youths can throw and hide behind the walls in the alleys, but sometimes the innocent kids can't run fast enough to avoid the actions of the forces. Thats the reason why the elders and guardians should keep the children inside when such protests are going on.


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## HAIDER

kingdurgaking said:


> You think so??... if GoI is really dumb they have successfully kept a comedian at bay without paying a single paise?? .. GoI knows what to spend where.. atleast now we have some people who think better for there country... They have created some education facilities, Job opps etc etc instead of paying to that comedian.. See the difference between GoI and ISI/GoP?



Well, its common dilemma and complaint when Muslim goes down from valley to seek jobs, they been treated as Muslim terrorist or Pakistnai sympathizers and badly treated. So, go to see in forums Indian call them brother, but in real life not more then Pakistan sympathizers. That s call double standard and hypo ism in Indian politics and culture.

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## KS

HAIDER said:


> Well, human shield term doesn't fit here. Because nobody is shooting bullet from behind these kids. So, this term is totally nonsense.



It doesnt have to be always bullets..btw no live bullets were used.they were Rubber bullets that are used all over the world.

Secondly I think you are oblivious to the damage a stone weighing about a pound can cause if it hits the right spot.It could be even fatal.

They theow stones hiding behind the back of children and women so that the Sec Forces think thrice before doing anything and this is nothing but a Human Shield.



HAIDER said:


> During this whole protest non Indian soldier or policeman died because of bullet. It proves its fight between Indian guns and Freedom fighters stones.



False..over 4000 policemen and CRPF jawans have been injured in stone pelting in the last 3 months and over 1000 of them critically injured.No where in the world does the Security forces show so much restraint.

4000 Security forces injured in stone pelting


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## gubbi

karan.1970 said:


> Tactical error by Mr Gilani.. He shouldnt have said it.. Damaged his own cause by diluting the slogan of Aazadi...



Thats exactly what I thought immediately after reading this report. How naive of him to come out and say this when Kashmiri people are demanding 'aazadi'. He goes on to say that Independent Kashmir is NOT a viable option unless India, China and Pakistan support the state. That is in NO WAY happening - and surprisingly he mentions that too! 

Kashmiris are going to realize that they are being taken for a ride by their leaders. Given the option of joining Pakistan, people are definitely going to judge that by looking at the present state of affairs in Pakistan and the direction the country is heading into. Joining China is NOT an option.

Ultimately, there will be a solution worked out - within the framework of Indian constitution. 

Blood has been shed in vain. When will people realize this?


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## gubbi

Omar1984 said:


> Nehru, india's first prime minister, promised the people of Kashmir a referendum.



People desperately hold on to some vague promises made by long dead politicians, decades ago, but let the present day politicians who make flimsy, false promises for votes go scot-free!

Nehru has been dead for decades. So have many of his policies and promises too.

Welcome to the 21st century.


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## sab

Aamir Zia said:


> YouTube - hum pakistani hai pakistan hamara hei


fulfill his demand....give him Pakistan..................I have full support...

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## EjazR

@Omar1984

This is well documented by Pakistani as well as Kashmiri authors that Pakistan played a crucial role in sidelining pro-independance groups. Infact, at times, they passed on intelligence to Indian offcials to weaken the JKLF. You may want to check out Shadow War by Arif Jamal for details. Basharat Peer also mentions this in his book Curfewed midnight.


> *SC upholds life sentence for killer of Mirwaiz's father*
> NEW DELHI: More than 20 years after militants gunned down then Mirwaiz Moulvi Farooq at his residence in Srinagar, the Supreme Court on Wednesday upheld the conviction and life sentence to Hizbul Mujahideen militant Mohammad Ayub Dar for the murder.
> 
> A Bench comprising Justices V S Sirpurkar and M K Sharma dismissed an appeal filed by Dar, who was convicted by a Jammu and Kashmir TADA court on March 8 last year and sentenced to life imprisonment. "There is no merit in the appeal and it is dismissed," the Bench said. The TADA court had also imposed a fine of Rs 6,000 on Dar.
> 
> The killing of Mirwaiz Moulvi Farooq on May 21, 1990, had led to massive protests in the Valley. A month later, his then 17-year-old son Umar Farooq was appointed Mirwaiz.
> 
> On May 21, 1990, three terrorists entered Mirwaiz Moulvi Farooq's house and shot him. Farooq succumbed to his injuries at the Soura Hospital in Srinagar. The case was transferred to the CBI on June 11, 1990. Accused Abdul Rehman Shingan, alias Inayat, was arrested on September 20, 1990.
> 
> Shingan had confessed that he along with Mohammad Ayub Dar and Zahoor Ahmed entered Farooq's office armed with pistols and shot him. Shingan had died during the pendency of the trial. Accused Javed Ahmed, alias Ajmal Khan, and Zahoor Ahmed, alias Bilal, are absconding.

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## Archie

dabong1 said:


> If your so sure about your stance that the majority favour india ,then you guys would have no problem winning a vote on the issue of kashmir.....or is then when your hypocrisy is exposed!



Well if there is actually a vote conducted in J&K , then india will have no problem .The reason is simple , the separatist do not represent whole of J&K , they have pockets of influences
For instance there are 40 Legislative Districts in J&K , devided as follows
14 Districts in Jammu
12 Districts in Leh-Ladhakh
14 Districts in Kashmir Valley

*Do u Guys actually Believe that people of Jammu ,whose 90 % of Population is Hindu will actually vote for accession to Pakistan
Or for that matter People of Leh Ladakh whole of whose population is Buddhist and they have no connection with Pakistan and have more in common with Tibet and Northeast India.*
And Frankly not all districts of even the kashmir Valley are actually facing the Seperatist agitation, the number actually is 6 districts comprising SriNagar ,Shopian ,Anantang, Kulwan ,Baramulla ,Kupwara.
Now the seperatist donot even represent all the People in these 6 districts 
Out of the total Population Of 20 Million People , 14 Districts of Kashmir Valley have around 10 Million People , however Even if seperatist have support of say 5 million of those people which by the way is a lot , they would have no problem in finding 100000 People to conduct demonstration in different part of Kashmir valley and call it a unified freedom movement representing whole of J&K

Even if India agree to give independence to these 6 District what is the possibility of them remaining independent , Becoz Pak army would move in and it would result in action by Indian army which would lead to 4th Kashmir War.

*Best Idea would be to Conduct Vote in 14 Districts of Kashmir valley
And those districts which are in favor of independence should be granted the same , Also Pakistan should grant independence to Azad Kashmir ie withdraw its troops and terrorist from Azad Kashmir and let the then newly independent districts Join Azad Kashmir .
LET THE COMBINATION PAKISTAN HELD KASHMIR AND PART OF INDIAN HELD KASHMIR WISHING TO SEPERATE ,BE JOINED TOGETHER AS A SEPARATE COUNTRY SHARING BORDERS WITH INDIA ,PAKISTAN AND CHINA
With both India And Pakistan maintaining its troops outside the border of this region, which should have its own lawenforcement agency and govt comprising of people from this region , while india and pak should provide funding till the region is able to stand on its own ,And yeah Mirvaiz Omar , Leader of Huriyat Conference should Be named interim PM of this state , till Proper elections are called for which should involve all Kashmiri Parties from both side of border no National Parties of India and Pakistan like PPP , PML-N ,Congress,BJP ,CPM
*

OFF COURSE ALL THIS IS MY WISHFUL THINKING AND ARE LEADERS ARE SMART/DUMB ENOUGH NOT TO FOLLOW MY IDEAS


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## SpArK

*Agitating-protestors-are-in-for-shock. ​*
*Police forces from several states, including J&K, are evaluating the non-lethal Taser to help quell civil unrest​.*









It may prove a major step towards ending the use of lethal force against protestors by the police. Or it could be, in the worlds of Amnesty International, "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment which is absolutely prohibited under international law".

In secret trials on September 9th, at the National Security Guard (NSG) headquarters at Manesar, near Delhi, seven volunteers from the NSG were shot turn-by-turn with non-lethal Taser guns in different parts of their bodies. Temporarily paralysed by a 50,000-volt shock, the hardened commandoes crumpled to the floor, unable to move, speak or react in any way.

The Taser, marketed by US-based Taser International, uses compressed gas to shoot a tiny copper barb to a distance of 30 feet. After penetrating a couple of millimetres into the targeted individual, a high-voltage electric shock is administered through a trailing wire.

This effectively shuts down all muscular control; he or she can see, hear and think, but the body is utterly unable to react to commands from the brain. Taser International calls this neuromuscular incapacitation.

Indian interest in the Taser has been kindled by the deaths of more than a hundred protestors in police firing in Kashmir over the summer, and in the agitation against land acquisition in UP. The trials at the NSG this month were witnessed by several state police forces and by Indian Army officers.

The NSG has already floated a tender for 200 non-lethal weapons, to deploy with sky marshals in airliners and for anti-hijacking operations.





Sources say another 600 non-lethal weapons will be bought for the NSGs regional hubs.

Taser International, which has a 20-year patent from the Indian government, points out that the Kashmir situation might never have arisen had the police been armed with Tasers.

Says Paramjit Singh, who is heading Taser Internationals operations in India:* Currently, Indias police forces are equipped only to kill. The Taser would let them subdue agitated citizens without the political and legal complications that are caused by firing live bullets at unarmed civilians. Every law enforcement officer should have the option of using a non-lethal weapon.
*
Paramjit Singh also highlights the Kasab advantage that the Taser facilitates. He refers to the capture of Pakistani terrorist, Ajmal Kasab, whose interrogation provided crucial details of the Mumbai terror attack of 26th Nov 2008.

The police seem to agree. State police forces from J&K, Punjab, Sikkim, Madhya Pradesh, Himachal Pradesh and Andhra Pradesh, and also the Indo Tibetan Border Police, have shown interest or placed orders for the Taser. The UP Police have also conducted an NSG-style trial, where constables were shot to evaluate the Taser.

But Tasers are also controversial, with critics claiming that the device has already caused 245 deaths worldwide. The United Nations Committee Against Torture (CAT) concluded in 2007, that the use of the Taser gun constitutes a "form of torture" and "can even provoke death." Last year, after persistent allegations that Taser shocks interfere with heartbeat rhythms, particularly in people with pacemakers, Taser International advised law enforcement agencies to aim below the centre of the chest.

There has been no word yet on the NSG commandos or UP policemen who were shot during Taser trials. The BBC, however, broadcast a video, on 17th May 2007, of Michael Todd, the head of Greater Manchester Police, England, demonstrating his confidence in the Taser by allowing himself to be shot in the back. The police chief, who fell forward onto his chest, admitted after recovering: I couldn't move, it hurt like hell I wouldn't want to do that again.

Nevertheless, the NSG is impressed with the Taser, which is also used by several police forces around the world, such as the UK police, which have bought at least 10,000 Tasers. Experienced NSG commandos point out that a terrorist, even fatally wounded with a gunshot, can continue fighting, sometimes for hours. With the Taser, however, suppression is instant. The weapon is especially attractive for NSG sky marshals, since firing a bullet in an airliner risks perforating the fuselage and depressurising the cabin.


*
The Taser system, which was on display at the INDESEC exhibition in the capital earlier this month, comes in various models. The recently launched multi-shot Taser X3 can fire 3 probes in succession, a crucial facility when presented with more than one threat simultaneously.
*


In the United States it is legal for a civilian to carry a Taser C2 for self-defence. This is not considered a firearm because the cartridge uses gas, not gunpowder, to launch the probes. Taser advertises the C2, retailed at US $1200, and with a range of 15 feet, as superior to a stun gun, which must be in physical contact with the target; and to pepper spray, which is only effective to 6 feet away.


Broadsword: Agitating protestors are in for a shock


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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## RobbieS

What is the range of a taser? in J&K protestors or stone-throwers are as they say, a stone throw away from police. Can a Taser strike a person at that distance?


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## SpArK

35 feet

TASER X3


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## SpArK

*Schools reopen in Kashmir Valley after three months​*







_Children during a prayer session at a school in Srinagar. Authorities have re-opened educational institutions today amid preparations for conducting the annual examination
_


After remaining shut for 100 days, schools in Kashmir Valley reopened on Monday with students and teachers given a free passage by security forces despite curfew and restrictions in many parts.

However, attendance was thin against the backdrop of hardline Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelanis call to parents not to send their wards to schools and colleges.

The education system in the valley had become a collateral damage in the ongoing unrest, which began on June 11 with the killing of a 17-year-old student in police tear smoke shelling.

In order to ensure the smooth functioning of schools, the state Government had pressed a fleet of state road transport corporation buses into service.

More than 170 buses were deployed on 11 city routes for facilitating the movement of students and school staff.

The attendance of the students, however, was just around 20 per cent but authorities were hopeful that that it would improve from tomorrow.

State Education Minister Peerzada Mohammad Sayeed on Sunday announced a comprehensive plan for restarting the learning process and holding of annual examinations in the Valley.

We have formulated a plan to reopen all the schools in rural as well as urban areas including Srinagar city from tomorrow, the minister said.

He said the department will ensure that students of the Valley do not lose a precious academic year due to the ongoing unrest.

Geelani had on Sunday said, No right thinking person can deny the importance of education in society, but to think that they (government) are concerned about the future of our children is like a mad mans dream.

He appealed to people to strictly observe civil curfew when schools and colleges would resume their normal functioning in the Valley. The separatist leader also appealed to teachers and the non-teaching staff to stay at home.

In view of the diktat issued by Geelani, many private schools decided to adopt a wait and watch strategy.

We will see how the first day pans out. If government schools function normally, we will also start from Tuesday but at the moment we cannot risk our students, Mukhtar Ahmad, who runs a private school, said.

Despite tight security deployment around the schools, there have been reports of some people threatening the management of some schools in Batamaloo area of the city.

However, police officials say they were not aware of such threats.


The Hindu : News / National : Schools reopen in Kashmir Valley after three months

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## SpArK

*Kashmir: Schools reopen after 100 days​*
Kashmir: Ignoring Geelani?s shutdown call, schools reopen after 100 days








Srinagar: After remaining shut for 100 days, schools in Kashmir Valley reopened on Monday with students and teachers given a free passage by security forces despite curfew and restrictions in many parts. 

However, attendance was thin against the backdrop of hardline Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani's call to parents not to send their wards to schools and colleges. 

The education system in the Valley had become a collateral damage in the ongoing unrest, which began on June 11 with the killing of a 17-year-old student in police tear smoke shelling. 

In order to ensure the smooth functioning of schools, the state government had pressed a fleet of state road transport corporation buses into service. 

More than 170 buses were deployed on 11 city routes for facilitating the movement of students and school staff. 

The attendance of the students, however, was just around 20 per cent but authorities were hopeful that that it would improve from tomorrow. 

State Education Minister Peerzada Mohammad Sayeed yesterday announced a comprehensive plan for restarting the learning process and holding of annual examinations in the Valley. 

"We have formulated a plan to reopen all the schools in rural as well as urban areas including Srinagar city from tomorrow," the minister said. 

He said the department will ensure that students of the Valley do not lose a precious academic year due to the ongoing unrest. 

Geelani had yesterday said, "No right thinking person can deny the importance of education in society, but to think that they (government) are concerned about the future of our children is like a mad man's dream." 

He appealed to people to strictly observe civil curfew when schools and colleges would resume their normal functioning in the Valley. The separatist leader also appealed to teachers and the non-teaching staff to stay at home. 

In view of the diktat issued by Geelani, many private schools decided to adopt a wait and watch strategy. 

"We will see how the first day pans out. If government schools function normally, we will also start from Tuesday but at the moment we cannot risk our students," Mukhtar Ahmad, who runs a private school, said. 

Despite tight security deployment around the schools, there have been reports of some people threatening the management of some schools in Batamaloo area of the city. 

However, police officials say they were not aware of such threats. 









*No more stones.. only books!!!*

​

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## Tuba Butt

kashmir should b an independant state...


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## RobbieS

BENNY said:


> 35 feet
> 
> TASER X3



Too low for controlling stone-throwers. I guess rubber-bullets will be better.

But yeah, TASERs will definitely come in handy for city cops to tackle aggressive criminals.


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## SpArK

*JK job plans for youths, not for separatists: Govt​*
JK Job Plans | Kashmir Violence | JK Expert Panel | Manmohan Singh | Pritviraj Chavan - Oneindia News








New Delhi, Sep 27: *The Prime Minister Manmohan Singh met the expert group set up by him for ensuring employment opportunities for Kashmiri youths. * 


Manmohan Singh has evaluated the progress of plans of the expert group, chaired by former Reserve Bank of India governor C Rangarajan, to increase jobs for the unrest youths in the Valley. He asked the panel to ensure that employment opportunities were sustainable. He also suggested the panel to give regard to equity considerations, in terms of various regions of the state, sectors of the economy, levels of skill, and gender.


Kashmir's three lakh unemployed youth are not so sure about the Centre's initiative. But the Prime Minister's Office (PMO) thinks the move will go a long way.

*Minister of State in the PMO Prithviraj Chavan told that the package was not meant for the separatists but for the people of Jammu and Kashmir and hoped that a positive reaction would emerge soon.* 

The expert group was set up by prime minister on Aug 10, 2010 to formulate a job plan for the troubled state.

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## SpArK

*Overseas Kashmiri Pandits submit memorandum to Antony*




_In this file photograph, Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah greets pilgrims at the Kheer Bhawani temple near Srinagar. In the biggest congregation of Pandits in Kashmir since their exodus 21 years ago, over 50,000 people converged on the ancient temple during its annual mela recently. Photo: Nissar Ahmad

_


Kashmiri Pandits based in the United States, United Kingdom and Canada have submitted a memorandum to visiting Defence Minister A.K. Antony, saying that India is making a big mistake by not creating political, economical and physical security space for the community in the Valley.

*The Central Government is making a big mistake by not creating political, economical and physical security space for Kashmiri Pandits in the Valley today,* Vijay K. Sazawal, international coordinator at Indo-American Kashmir Forum said in the memorandum, which was also submitted on behalf of various other overseas Kashmiri Pandit groups from Canada and Britain.

*Indeed, the manner in which the All Party Delegation (APD) ignored the rights of Pandits in the Valley was manifested by their refusal to meet with Kashmiri Pandits still living in the Valley. Repeated demands by the Valley- based community were ignored,* he said.

Mr. Sazawal said all meetings took place in Jammu, reinforcing nonValley identity of Kashmiri Pandits.

*On the other hand, the APD did meet with the Sikh community in Srinagar,* he said in his letter yesterday.

... Home Minister (P Chidambaram) announced an 8-point plan to address the unrest in the Valley that was approved by the CCS (Cabinet Committee on Security). While I hope that the Central Government succeeds in its goals, the fact is that by ignoring Kashmiri Pandits who are also constituents of the Valley, the plan falls short in its comprehensive goals, and therefore may not succeed, the memorandum said.

*Kashmiri Pandits are key to restoring plurality and religious temperance in the Valley, Mr. Sazawal said.
*


Yet, no special effort is being made by the Government to assert that fact. In fact, the State Government has consistently made Pandit identity synonymous with Jammubased constituents, he alleged.

*The memorandum thanked the Defence Minister for taking the courageous stand at the CCS where it was decided not to dilute any provisions of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act without further assessment and discussions.
*
India will pay a heavy price, if it continues to ignore the strategic asset that Kashmiri Pandits provide in strengthening Indias national identity and national security in Jammu and Kashmir, the memorandum said.


The Hindu : News / National : Overseas Kashmiri Pandits submit memorandum to Antony

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## SpArK

RobbieS said:


> Too low for controlling stone-throwers. I guess rubber-bullets will be better.
> 
> But yeah, TASERs will definitely come in handy for city cops to tackle aggressive criminals.



I would go with water cannon vehicles.. \

even 3 of these kinds are in my city


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## Vikram

you fogot to bold this part................
*Reserve Bank of India governor C Rangarajan*


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## KS

It is shame on the GoI that the Pandits , original inhabitants of the Valley have to run from Pillar to post to submit their pleas while the separatists and secessionists are met in their homes and concessions given to them by the truckload.

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## SpArK

Here is the one in my city


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## kingdurgaking

HAIDER said:


> Well, its common dilemma and complaint when Muslim goes down from valley to seek jobs, they been treated as Muslim terrorist or Pakistnai sympathizers and badly treated. So, go to see in forums Indian call them brother, but in real life not more then Pakistan sympathizers. That s call double standard and hypo ism in Indian politics and culture.



How can you say so buddy?? Lot of Kashmir have come out of valley and are living in the others part of competitive India.. And the discussion about this is purely OT which is not related on Geelani..

But for your information if they are competitive they can shine any where in India... If some are treated so it would be a direct impact of there behavior for sure.. Logically no one will hit a dog with a stone until it provokes any one... If people just come out of it for there survival they will survive in india.. and this situation doesn't is not there for muslims even for hindus of south indians.. they go to places like mumbai they boast themselves there around they get beaten... But some people go live quite and they were able to shine.... any where attitude works buddy.. not religion or location...


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## SpArK

*J&K turmoil: Do not study is Geelani's new refrain*  


NEW DELHI/SRINAGAR: As the state government prepares to counter the separatists call for shutdown and reopen educational institutions, the hardline Hurriyat Conference, led by *Syed Ali Shah Geelani, has issued a warning to parents not to send their wards to schools and colleges. *

No right-thinking person can deny the importance of education in society, but to think that they (government) are concerned about the future of our children is like a mad mans dream, Mr Geelani said in a statement in Srinagar. The Hurriyat hawk alleged that most of the youths killed in the ongoing unrest in the Valley were students. 

Mr Geelani also asked people to strictly observe civil curfew on Monday when schools and colleges would resume their normal functioning in the Valley. The Valley has so far been following the Hurriyat (Geelani) calendar  a line-up of shutdowns and protests published in leading local dailies  as the state government has been reluctant to take any stern steps against it. 

Meanwhile, the Centres Kashmir package has failed to get the required backing for diverse reasons. While BJP charged the UPA government with bowing before the separatists, the Left described the proposals as an insufficient move. The Centre has again bowed before the separatists and anti-national elements and continued its appeasement policy towards Kashmir while ignoring Jammu and Ladakh regions, BJP state president Shamsher Singh Manhas said. He also criticised the Centres decision to release stone-pelters, questioning the message it sent across the country by according leniency to those who break the law. 

CPM, which had been demanding release of stone-pelters against whom there were no substantial charges, said more needed to be done to instill confidence among the people and help restore peace and normalcy. 

Seeking a change in the way police deal with protesters, CPM said the assurance of reviewing the location of bunkers in Srinagar city should be implemented immediately and not remain only a promise. CPM was in favour of partial withdrawal of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) and had even sought action against security personnel who had indulged in excesses. 

CPM said the group of interlocutors for initiating a dialogue should be primarily political in nature, adding only a political exercise can help initiate a dialogue and sustain it. While the announcement of the release of young men in jail for stone-pelting, review of detention under the Public Safety Act and compensation for the families of those killed are welcome, it is necessary to provide for compensation for those injured in police firings and for the rehabilitation of those permanently incapacitated, a statement issued by the CPM polit bureau here said. 


J&K turmoil: Do not study is Geelani's new refrain - The Economic Times


*This AH has to shut his H.*

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## SpArK



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## kingdurgaking

dezi said:


> So now we will see another round of conflict between these two leaders?
> 
> What about the people in P0K.. what do they want? Are they considering to include them in their decisions as well?



That is a dark land.. even if IOK is free(which wont happen any way) P0K will be under Pakistan... but they will be called Azad kashmir


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## Rafael

dezi said:


> *So now we will see another round of conflict between these two leaders?*
> 
> What about the people in P0K.. what do they want? Are they considering to include them in their decisions as well?



umm No! As far as I remember Geelani talked about his *personal* choice but said he will go with the majority!


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## Hutchroy

HAIDER said:


> Even its independent Kashmir, still Pakistan in win win situation. OK then do the plebiscite. Evac Indian forces and leave the new country name Kashmir from daily oppression. I think after 100,000 Kashmires death, India is just wasting its time,money and manpower.



An Independent Jammu & Kashmir will be the WORST CASE SCENARIO for Pakistan and then the whole Indus Water Treaty will have to be re-negotiated in which case Pakistan will then loose "considerable" Waters which will be for Jammu & Kashmir.

As such Pakistan will allow a "Creation" of the Independent State of Jammu & Kashmir and then in a short while will Invade the State of Jammu & Kashmir just as in October 1947.

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## indushek

Politics Karthik this is what is called Vote bank politics. Congress is famous for this, they will stoop to any low to please voters. 

On the other hand bow to ur secular nation which upholds only minority rights while majority is neglected.

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## Urbanized Greyhound

This is a side of the Kashmiri story which is conveniently swept under the carpet by all parties concerned including the entire Congress hierarchy .......a stark contrast to the days when Nehru and Indira because of their Kashmiri roots used to take a personal interest in the welfare of the Pandits......for all their talk of the Kashmir problem not about religion , the militants show their true faces when they indulge in this kind of ethnic cleansing......Simply cant wait to see a truly nationalistic party at the centre who can handle the vested elements in Kashmir with the strictures they deserve than repeated displays of weak knees by the congress incompetents.......

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## Capt.Popeye

^^^
There is another non-lethal device available called LRAD (Long Range Acoustic Device) range approx 300m. Please check out Wikipedia for details.
It has been used aboard ships (incl. the Somali coast) with some success. May be suitable in J & K in vehicle mounted form.


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## beckham

BENNY said:


> In the United States it is legal for a civilian to carry a Taser C2 for self-defence. This is not considered a firearm because the cartridge uses gas, not gunpowder, to launch the probes. Taser advertises the C2, retailed at US $1200, and with a range of 15 feet, as superior to a stun gun, which must be in physical contact with the target; and *to pepper spray, which is only effective to 6 feet away.*





RobbieS said:


> *Too low for controlling stone-throwers.* I guess rubber-bullets will be better.
> 
> But yeah, TASERs will definitely come in handy for city cops to tackle aggressive criminals.



*How about these ??* 


PepperBall Gun Fully Automatic TAC-700

*The TAC-700 on averages fires 700 rounds per minute in full automatic [with up to 60 ft. target accuracy] and up to 200 ft. accuracy for saturating an area with pepper. It is both tactical and compact.*











*The tactical and compact TAC-700 offers you distance, speed, versatility, and maneuverability with automatic performance for non-lethal use-of-force situations.

Distance

Target accurate up to 60 ft.; area saturation out to 200 ft. with new PepperBall 2part/3 gram rounds

Speed

Quickly deploy PAVA rounds at up to 700 rounds per minute

Versatility

Enhance officer safety and effectiveness in crowd control, jail barricade busting, domestic violence, suicide by cop, and many other one-to-one or one-to-many non-lethal situations

Maneuverability

The forward mounted high pressure air bottle allows for greater maneuverability and mobility in tactical situations

Variable Fire Power

Automatic feed system keeps rounds launching consistently while variable trigger settings allow you to conform to agency policy while giving officers the right capabilities to achieve all of their goals

Special Features:

Automatic Feed System

Feed and Fire up to 700 rounds per minute
The Automatic Feed System links the feeder sprocket to the air system. The faster you pull the trigger, the faster the feeder will feed.

Five (5) Adjustable Automatic Trigger Settings

Fully Automatic

Launches rounds continuously as long as the trigger is pulled

Semi Automatic

One round launched for each trigger pull

3 Round Burst

3 rounds launched for each trigger pull

Turbo

One round launched per trigger pull; switches to auto if less than 1/4 second between pull and release

Auto Response

One round launched upon trigger pull and one launched upon trigger release*

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## SpArK

_Students on their way to school in Srinagar on Monday as many educational institutions opened after a gap of over 100 days. Meanwhile, curfew continued in almost all the ten districts for the fifteenth consecutive day. Photo: Nissar Ahmad_












_Kashmiri students attend classes at a school in Srinagar. IE photo: Shuaib Masoodi._

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## Mohammed Irfan

I think OIC need to invest its time into doing something good for the Muslim population of its members rather than giving advise to other countries. As India is not a member of OIC, they have no right to comment on India's internal matters. If they care so much about Indian Muslims then they should include India as one of the member as India is the country with third largest Muslim population. If they are not allowing India to be a member just because Pakistan is threatning to Quit OIC then it shows that its not interested in well being of Muslim Population. 

There are thousands of Muslim people dying in its member countries due to hunger in a countries like paksitan, somalia etc... instead of working for the well being of them OIC talking abt Human rights of a country a country which is not even a its member state. 

I guess they are only interested in Human Rights of the Muslims rather the thier life itself.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

mikey said:


> nothing gonna happen 2 days ago .. somobozo insulting indira gandhi by calling her witch nd her son as hairy bear...



He might be refering to Nixon and idra isnt a god.. ive seen indian memberscalling zardari mr 10%....did u report tht too?


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## Capt.Popeye

"J&K turmoil: Do not study is Geelani's new refrain - The Economic Times"

Great for the leaders like Geelani; keep the people uneducated and ignorant.
Is'nt it said "andhon mein kanaa raja."
-In the land of the blind, the one eyed is king.

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## mikey

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> He might be refering to Nixon and idra isnt a god.. ive seen indian memberscalling zardari mr 10%....did u report tht too?



watever mister but he called a leader aaaaaaaaa witch...how u gonna define ???


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## toppys

rhymes well with:
aap pakistani hai to pakistan chale jao..
nahi chalegi gunda gardi nahi chalegi nahi chalegi..
mullaji chale jao pakistan chale jao....
le jao apne bando ko...pakistan chale jao...
border tak ham lejayenge...pakistan chale jao...
visa passport sab kuch denge pakistan chale jao...
udhar hi jeena,,udhar hi marna vaise pakistani hai...
pakistan chale jao...kashmir ko chod ke jao...


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## TATA

All the trouble maker radical separatist have already sent their kids out of Kashmir in Delhi and other places for study and now asking every Kashmiri to remain illiterate so that they can make them radicals and terrorist.


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## somebozo

Omar1984 said:


> Nehru, india's first prime minister, promised the people of Kashmir a referendum.



Refrendum was immedeatly awarded to Junagarth where chances of winning were fat. In the case of kashmir they were really slim and doubtful!

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## Leviza

Kashmir is a part of Pakistan and soon it will be a reality....
People agree to this or not but its true...

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## hecj

Leviza said:


> Kashmir is a part of Pakistan and soon it will be a reality....
> People agree to this or not but its true...





> Kashmir is a part of Pakistan



just look at the geography of asia.


> and soon it will be a reality....



which soon u r talking abt.

only possible sol could be loc as international border


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## srsrsr

BENNY said:


> That the option of independent J&K was not viable as India, Pakistan and China were not in favour of the idea and without their collective support this proposition was neither feasible nor sustainable;



Doing a "feasibility study" on Independance????? Sure J&K has great leader to follow !

I believe if China offers more benefits ( oh, not to the people, but for this great leader) Geelani would term merging with China as the most "feasible" option.


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## kingdurgaking

Leviza said:


> Kashmir is a part of Pakistan and soon it will be a reality....
> People agree to this or not but its true...



yeah it will be a reality show.. which will go in winds....


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## karan.1970

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> He might be refering to Nixon and idra isnt a god.. ive seen indian memberscalling zardari mr 10%....did u report tht too?



There is a difference.. How many people here will survive by calling Quid-e-azam something like that. 

Even the most bigoted Pakistani can not compare the contributions of Zardari and Indira Gandhi towards their respective nations.

And calling a leader who is no more, names is not a good thing anyway

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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> What Pakistan believes in or not means diddly squat to India... And I am sure, its the same other way around too.. So agreeing or not doesnt have any impact.



Good than... But I think our perspective was to wake some up from his wet dreams and we did it.


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## prototype

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> He might be refering to Nixon and idra isnt a god.. ive seen indian memberscalling zardari mr 10%....did u report tht too?



ur own people like to insult Zardari with all those remarks,see most of the threads here,every evil in Pakistani society is attributed to Zardari if inot RAW,CIA and Mossad,that is not the same here we respect indira Gandhi a lot

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## MAFIAN GOD

AND THE PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD CARE ABOUT SO CALLED "FREEDOM MOVEMENT" IN KASHMIR.
THEY JUST EASILY IGNORE PANDITS.........

@INDUSHEK:-TRULY SAID BROTHER


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## Storm Force

Nothing will change 

India occupys Kashmir Saichen & Kargil. Has economic and military power to hold on to all 3.

Pakistan will debate, shout support, to freedom fighters. 

Nobody in the rest of the world cares. including the Arabs who totally preoccupied with Israel & palenstine issue.

SO WE SAME OLD SAME OLD. 

diplomatic talk = status quo./ 

all of us will be dead nothing will change


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## Tuahaa

Storm Force said:


> Nothing will change
> 
> India occupys Kashmir Saichen & Kargil. Has economic and military power to hold on to all 3.
> 
> Pakistan will debate, shout support, to freedom fighters.
> 
> Nobody in the rest of the world cares. including the Arabs who totally preoccupied with Israel & palenstine issue.
> 
> SO WE SAME OLD SAME OLD.
> 
> diplomatic talk = status quo./
> 
> all of us will be dead nothing will change



One thing changes= PA will have support from Kashmiris to fight India.

You must have some idea how dangerous angry civilians become during a war.


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## prototype

whatever obivious rantings GoP do,how much they try to internationalize the issue,still every night going to the bed,they have to sleep with the fact that Kashmir is controlled by India and will keep controling


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## Urbanized Greyhound

Tuahaa said:


> *One thing changes= PA will have support from Kashmiris to fight India.
> 
> You must have some idea how dangerous angry civilians become during a war*.



you guys are habituated to changing rhetoric in every thread, aren't you ? Now your openly calling for a war .....
what happened to the nukes and MAD principles now ?.....don't they apply in this case ?......

rants aside why dont you give us a plausible diplomatic scenario how Kashmir can be wrested away from India.....any credible theories...???


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## Jackdaws

When a neutral person from outside the subcontinent looks at Pakistan's claim he or she goes - "A country which has been a military dictatorship for half its existence if fighting for the democratic rights of a region which has been democratic...you have to be kidding."


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## somebozo

srsrsr said:


> Doing a "feasibility study" on Independance????? Sure J&K has great leader to follow !
> 
> I believe if China offers more benefits ( oh, not to the people, but for this great leader) Geelani would term merging with China as the most "feasible" option.



Then why are they not doing it?
Another banned member having a go at trolling?

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## StingRoy

*Kashmir: Huriyat supporters attack school buses*

Srinagar, Sep 28: Jammu and Kashmir separatist Huriyat Conference supporters attacked buses carrying students as school opened on Monday, Sep 27.

Educational institutions in disturbed Kashmir Valley opened on Monday after more than three months. The violence and curfews imposed in the Valley caused the shut down of schools and colleges.

The separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani asked the Kashmir parents not to send their wards to schools and colleges. However, defying his warning, many students attended the classes. Schools and colleges worked inspite of less attendance. Anxious parents avoided government transport and dropped off their kids themselves their vehicles.

Some of the school administrations turned students away in a few hours fearing about their security after protests broke out at a few places.

"We opened the school on the state government's instructions. But only 100 of the 3,000 students attended the school due to prevailing uncertainty in the Valley," said Jay Kumar, principal, Burn Hall school.

On Monday, Sep 27, Home Minister P Chidambaram expressed pleasure over the reopening of schools in the Valley.

"Government is happy to learn that most schools and colleges have reopened in Jammu and Kashmir and most students have gone back to schools and colleges on Monday. I appeal to all sections of people of Kashmir, especially parents, to cooperate with the state government and ensure that all schools and colleges function normally," said Chidambaram in a statement.


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## SpArK

Its sad to see they are resorting to violence to students who are willing to learn and go to school instead of picking up stones from street and throwing around.


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## StingRoy

Indeed... it is really unfortunate that they can stoop to such lows... Hurriyat leaders should immediately call on their supporters to spare the school buses and allow them to attend their classes.

This shows these extremist leaders can put the lives of these children at risk to achieve their objectives.


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## B. Singh

Great news!!
Seems like peace is heading back to the heaven(Kashmir)


......


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## footmarks

What is this Geelani trying to do by not allowing students to study? He himself is half gone, counting his days on earth before he departs to hell. And still trying to bring hell to the heaven called kashmir


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## fast and furious

Great news.

We keep saying when talking about India and Pakistan that Sports and Art should be kept away from Politics.
It took all of us so long to realize that education deserves the same if not better treatment. 
Off topic- Little chidren in their school uniforms and with books look so beautiful and cute.


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## civfanatic

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/28/world/asia/28kashmir.html


> *India Reopens Kashmir&#8217;s Schools, but Many Stay Away*
> NEW DELHI &#8212; The Indian government on Monday began the slow, uncertain process of trying to restore normalcy to the violence-racked region of Kashmir. Authorities reopened schools and universities, even as many students stayed away, some out of protest, others out of fear.
> 
> 
> Monday marked the first test of the new political initiative announced by the Indian government over the weekend after more than three months of angry confrontation between stone-throwing protesters and Indian security officers. The demonstrations have left at least 108 people dead and coalesced into an angry rebuke of government policies in Indian-controlled Kashmir.
> 
> The package aimed at calming the situation includes economic aid, a call for easing security strictures and a new political dialogue.
> 
> Kashmir is a longtime source of dispute between India and Pakistan, with both countries controlling different parts of the region and claiming all of it. The latest unrest in the Indian portion, the state of Jammu and Kashmir, has been fueled by a rising call from students and others for political self-determination.
> 
> Since June, most educational institutions have remained closed in Kashmir, whether because of strikes called by separatist leaders or because of strict government curfews that had closed shops and cleared traffic off streets.
> 
> Reopening the schools was considered critical, and the state government announced that teachers with work cards and students in school uniforms would be allowed to pass through the myriad security checkpoints in the region&#8217;s summer capital of Srinagar. Bus schedules also were announced.
> 
> But on Monday there was an uneven response, with government officials estimating that 30 percent to 80 percent of students showed up for class throughout the Kashmir Valley.
> 
> Several students interviewed by telephone said they failed to attend because security officers refused to lift the curfew. At the University of Kashmir in Srinagar, Muhammad Ibrahim, 22, arrived at 10 a.m. for his first day back in 14 weeks. Yet he was the only student in his class of 38 who navigated the checkpoints and made it to school.
> 
> Showkat Shafi, spokesman for the university, said most classes on the main campus were closed Monday, while the curfew impeded other students from reaching satellite locations throughout the valley. He said students at the off-campus locations were supposed to begin taking examinations on Monday.
> 
> &#8220;Students are complaining that they are trying to reach examination centers across the valley, but very few have made it,&#8221; he said.
> 
> Many students also stayed away as a means of protest over their demands that India make good on promises to allow a referendum on self-rule in Kashmir. Some may have been following the separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who belittled the new government package and announced that families should not send their children back to school. Yet it is unclear how much control leaders like Mr. Geelani have over a protest movement fueled largely by college students.
> 
> &#8220;The government insists that we go to classes because they want to show the international community that things are normal here in Kashmir,&#8221; said Saliq Abbas, a postgraduate student at the University of Kashmir, who refused to return to classes. &#8220;But things are not normal.&#8221;
> 
> The impact of the new political package is likely to become clear only after several more weeks. Last Monday, Home Minister Palaniappan Chidambaram led a parliamentary delegation on a two-day visit to the region and then announced the new policies from New Delhi late on Saturday afternoon.
> 
> On Monday, Mr. Chidambaram framed the efforts to reopen the schools in a positive light, noting that most had opened, while also criticizing a few minor reported episodes of stone throwing at school buses that resulted in no injuries.
> 
> &#8220;How can any right-thinking person pelt stones on school buses?&#8221; he asked in a statement.
> 
> Omar Abdullah, the chief minister of Jammu and Kashmir, called on all political groups &#8212; including separatists like Mr. Geelani &#8212; to support the resumption of education. &#8220;Let us keep education neutral to all conflicts,&#8221; he said in a statement.
> 
> One of the most pressing questions is when, and to what degree, the authorities will ease the security lockdown that many residents in Srinagar describe as &#8220;collective punishment.&#8221;
> 
> Mr. Chidambaram&#8217;s package included a directive for state leaders to reassess the security presence and consider scaling back &#8212; a step previously promoted by Mr. Abdullah. Many Kashmiris want India to repeal emergency laws that have given broad powers of arrest and immunity to soldiers, paramilitary officers and police officers in many parts of the region.
> 
> Kuldeep Khoda, director of the state police, said decisions on security would be made after a meeting of the Unified Command, consisting of civilian leaders and leaders of security and military agencies.
> 
> He said the police had maintained a curfew in Srinagar on Monday as a protective measure against the threat of violence against schools or buses presented by Mr. Geelani&#8217;s call for a strike. The police did relax the curfew on Sunday to allow residents to rush out to buy food and other provisions.
> 
> The recent political attention on Kashmir has coincided with an almost complete absence of violence during the past week. Taj Mohi-ud-Din, a senior minister in the state government, predicted that more students would attend classes in the coming days, as the situation stabilized and parents became more comfortable with sending out their children. He also said that security would be eased in the future, as long as violence did not return.
> 
> &#8220;It has to be gradual,&#8221; he said. &#8220;We have to be certain the withdrawal will not affect the security position.&#8221;


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## fast and furious

Leviza said:


> Kashmir is a part of Pakistan and soon it will be a reality....
> People agree to this or not but its true...



Sure mate.
Lets say for a moment Kashmir does become the part of pakistan then wat ?

You think India will sit quietly and clap? You know, wat you can do we can do better.

Watever Solution to Kashmir is found,it should end the animosity between India and pak not continue the same .
For that you cannot ignore India's concern.

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## mikey

gilani and co ) NEVER LET THEIR KIDS TO JOIN STONE PELTERS AND FACE POLICE DANDA AND BULLETS ...BY PREVENTING KIDS FROM SKOOL SHOWS HIS BACKWARD AND VOID THINKING,THIS PEOPLE SHOULD BE KICKED OUT IN BUTT WITHOUT MERCY AND JAILED..

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## EjazR

*@civfanatic*

What do you think about protestors, pelting stones and school buses? ISn't it a way of forcing people to join the protest rather than allowing them to choose freely? What would be your reaction if some school kid gets injured in this incident?

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## kingdurgaking

dezi said:


> *Kashmir: Huriyat supporters attack school buses*
> 
> Srinagar, Sep 28: Jammu and Kashmir separatist Huriyat Conference supporters attacked buses carrying students as school opened on Monday, Sep 27.
> 
> Educational institutions in disturbed Kashmir Valley opened on Monday after more than three months. The violence and curfews imposed in the Valley caused the shut down of schools and colleges.
> 
> The separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani asked the Kashmir parents not to send their wards to schools and colleges. However, defying his warning, many students attended the classes. Schools and colleges worked inspite of less attendance. Anxious parents avoided government transport and dropped off their kids themselves their vehicles.
> 
> Some of the school administrations turned students away in a few hours fearing about their security after protests broke out at a few places.
> 
> "We opened the school on the state government's instructions. But only 100 of the 3,000 students attended the school due to prevailing uncertainty in the Valley," said Jay Kumar, principal, Burn Hall school.
> 
> On Monday, Sep 27, Home Minister P Chidambaram expressed pleasure over the reopening of schools in the Valley.
> 
> "Government is happy to learn that most schools and colleges have reopened in Jammu and Kashmir and most students have gone back to schools and colleges on Monday. I appeal to all sections of people of Kashmir, especially parents, to cooperate with the state government and ensure that all schools and colleges function normally," said Chidambaram in a statement.



Cant believe why the government is keeping mum on this group.. They should be banned and made a terror group.. They have only guts in attacking school bus.. What does this group want to do?? keep the future in dark?? From this the world has to accept that Geelani is a terrorist.. he is not doing welfare for his own people... then who wants to listen to him?? ask that kid to stay at home and cry.. and not to become a cry baby in the public..


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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> Its sad to see they are resorting to violence to students who are willing to learn and go to school instead of picking up stones from street and throwing around.



Yeah .. the terrorist group know that if they go to school then there wont be any future for them and no one will part away from india. As the kids will understand that India is better in all aspect


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## Undivided Kashmir

what more can be expected from this pak puppet but to serve his masters. He should be kicked out of India.


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## Undivided Kashmir

This idiot Gilani is ruining the life of the young kids, He want s to keep them uneducated so that he could use them as cannon fodder.

Uneducated youth will become his tools for his nefarious designs.


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## brahmastra

Actually, its good that gilaani said it. JKLF and other sister separatist organisations condemn him and said that they will never join pakistan and wants freedom from both India and pakistan. 
People who want separation from India are getting confused what they are fighting for. And those separatist need to be clear to the people that what they are fighting for- Joining pak or complete freedom. Poll suggest that joining pak is the least favored option.


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## civfanatic

EjazR said:


> *@civfanatic*
> 
> What do you think about protestors, pelting stones and school buses? ISn't it a way of forcing people to join the protest rather than allowing them to choose freely? What would be your reaction if some school kid gets injured in this incident?



The concern of government to wards students is politically motivated otherwise they won't have killed more than 100 people mostly students , put thousands of students behind bars under draconian PSA (which allows govt to jail upto two years without trial ).The student community of Kashmir understood machinations of Govt and comprehended that this belated concern for their education is a ploy to disparage and marginalize Geelani sahib . The students in Kashmir realize that most of those who died have been students and infarct students have faced the worst repression by state .
It was crafty move by Govt to use the kids of bureaucrats ho study in elite schools of Kashmir and then use their media to propagate that people are defying Hurriyat . If some school kid got injured I would be sad but I would blame Govt for using a section of students to play its dirty politics


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## EjazR

*@civfanatic*

You didnt' answer my question. I completely understand that you have made up your mind that the government will always be wrong. The deaths were wrong and there are indications that atleast in some cases like the Anantnag cases investigations and conivtions may happen. The stone pelters arrested have also mostly been released on bail and according to media reports are under 100 that are still in custody and most of the are allegedly organisers of stone pelting mobs.

But what do you think about the protestors who are forcing people to follow the protest program. I can post more news articles from local Kashmiri people where this has happened. Maybe not widspread but cases where shopkeepers have been pelted at. Even cases where guests from Pakistani Kashmiri side had stones pelted at their buses.

So leave the government aside for a second. What do you think of these protestors? And shouldn't Kashmiris have the right to choose wether they will follow the protest program without being socially boycotted? Recall that Geelani has acutally said that don't indulge in stone pelting as well. And some of them then burned effigies of Geelani for saying that this was unIslamic and agreeing with Sahih Hadiths were the prophet had disliked this. Another hadith was where a sahabi had even stopped talking with his relative because of this. 

Its not like the government is losing anything when kids don't go to school,or guests/family come on a bus from Pakistani side of the LoC.

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## EjazR

A balnced view from a Kashmiri paper

*War for education*

Govt has wrongly linked education with normalcy but Geelani stretched it too far. At a time when life in Kashmir still hangs by separatist calendars and curfew-breaks, the idea of selling the school activity as normalcy is preposterous. Doubly so was the egotist reaction from Syed Ali Geelani who surprisingly asked parents not to send their children to school.

While the government is wrongly linking education to normalcy, which should be the outcome of effective administration, Geelani is trying to showcase his support base by calling a boycott of schooling. However there are genuine questions that need be asked to the government. Was it possible for parents to see off their wards when even most of the minister&#8217;s colleagues were not able to send children to school? Even more crucial question is who would stick his neck out when some boys are shown on television burning down their books and saying Azadi would set right what may go wrong by longer breaks in education. An employee who has been hardly attending his duties for past months, at times beaten by cops, cannot be expected to herd his children to school and wring his hands in anxiety till they return. Majority of Kashmiris doubtless want the education to be kept out of separatist campaigns but they surely don&#8217;t want to be sandwiched between the war of wits that is going on between the government and the separatists. When the government remains afraid of the same people that voted it to power, the situation needs more than a kneejerk response. The ongoing turmoil is not a superficial trouble; it represents a deep seated conflict that is largely about the aspirations not grievances. Had it not been so, people would have stoned separatists for locking down schools for whole summer. Moreover, the democratic code demands wise moves from the government. Strict curfew, promise of security and the suggestion that the parents could stay with kids in schools is a louder recognition of law-and-order breakdown; in fact the law and order had been in disarray for past nearly four months. The government, therefore, should not jump over sterile ideas in order to bypass the right path. And the right path is to start an internal outreach process that would see people getting maximum relief in the form of soft policing, withdrawal of cases against students and political interactions with the youth. At the same time, the separatist leadership particularly S A Geelani too should not allow the his detractors in Delhi to drum up his calls as Talibanization. It is a fact that he asked people not to send their wards to school. This fact got splashed across world media. None in the world is bothered to dig deep and see why Geelani said so. He should not have allowed himself into a trap. While Geelani must remain cautious as he charts out his future course, the authorities in Srinagar must understand that Education is a fundamental right and the state government is constitutionally bound to ensure it by creating right conditions. Curiously, the government wants to create right conditions through resumption of class work even as the people still defy such efforts by shutdown and sporadic protests. For every conflict situation, Education like other social activities can follow normalcy, it cannot precede it. In its eagerness to show the separatists in bad light the government should not put the cart before the horse.


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## civfanatic

EjazR said:


> *@civfanatic*
> 
> You didnt' answer my question. I completely understand that you have made up your mind that the government will always be wrong. The deaths were wrong and there are indications that atleast in some cases like the Anantnag cases investigations and conivtions may happen.
> 
> But what do you think about the protestors who are forcing people to follow the protest program. I can post more news articles from local Kashmiri people where this has happened. Maybe not widspread but cases where shopkeepers have been pelted at. Even cases where guests from Pakistani Kashmiri side had stones pelted at their buses.
> 
> So leave the government aside for a second. What do you think of these protestors? And shouldn't Kashmiris have the right to choose wether they will follow the protest program without being socially boycotted? Recall that Geelani has acutally said that don't indulge in stone pelting as well. And some of them then burned effigies of Geelani for saying that this was unIslamic and agreeing with Sahih Hadiths were the prophet had disliked this. Another hadith was where a sahabi had even stopped talking with his relative because of this.
> 
> Its not like the government is losing anything when kids don't go to school,or guests/family come on a bus from Pakistani side of the LoC.



Yes Kashmiris should have right to follow protest programmes out of their own choice but the fact is that when Govt uses its power of disbursing patronage to create a minuscule minorties to thrawt the genuine protest of a whole population . Kashmiris have been protesting for four months for azzaadi during this time frame people have made tremendous sacrifices and now they won't allow a microscopic minority to disparage those sacrifices in grab of fake concern for education .


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## civfanatic

Geelani sahab on this Topic


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## SpArK

*Pakistani militants 'hijacking' Kashmir cause
​​*

By Zulfiqar Ali
BBC News, Islamabad






_The JKLF is one of the oldest separatist groups in Indian-administered Kashmir_



The Kashmiri separatist Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) has criticised Pakistani militants for "hijacking" its cause.

*The JKLF - which wants Kashmir to be independent of Pakistan and India - said that they were "subverting the indigenous movement".
*
Its strongest criticism was for the Jamaat-ud Dawa (JD) charity.

*Experts say that the JKLF's latest criticism of Pakistani-based militant groups is more strident than usual.*

The row comes at a sensitive time in Indian-administered Kashmir, where more than 100 people have died in street protests since June.

Nationalist struggle

The JD charity is believed to be the parent organisation of the Lashkar-e-Taiba militant group.

*Lashkar has been at the forefront of the armed insurgency in Indian-administered Kashmir in recent years and wants the territory to become part of Pakistan.
*

*The JKLF statement was made as the JD launches a three-day mass contact drive across Pakistan-administered Kashmir to "raise awareness about the latest agitation in Indian-administered Kashmir".*





_The JKLF leadership is concerned that its cause is hijacked_



*The JKLF started the insurgency in Indian-administered Kashmir in the late 1980s.

Its leaders have since admitted they were then supported by the Pakistani government which trained their militant wing.
*

*But the JKLF says that the Pakistanis changed their mind and introduced pro-Pakistan groups, such as Jamaat-e-Islami's affiliate, Hizbul Mujahideen, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Harkatul Mujahideen and other groups.*

*It says these groups not only fought Indians but also persecuted JKLF activists.*

A JD spokesman, Yahya Mujahid, told the BBC on Monday that about 3,500 people have joined a JD caravan that will travel from Mirpur to Muzaffarabad in Pakistan-administered Kashmir and then hold a rally in Islamabad on Wednesday.

Witnesses and officials say local Kashmiri participants in the march are few - most are non-locals from different areas of Pakistan.

*The JKLF has often accused pro-Pakistan groups of turning a legitimate nationalist struggle of the Kashmiri people into an Islamic terrorist movement, thereby undermining the movement's credibility.*

*A JKLF statement says that the JD campaign "will sabotage the Kashmiris' spontaneous movement once again, and provide propaganda material to the Indian government to defame and suppress the Kashmiri people's movement for national liberation".*


BBC News - Pakistani militants 'hijacking' Kashmir cause

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## EjazR

So what I understand is that you think those protestors who are pelting stones or preventing kids from going to school are wrong, but it may happen because these protestors feel that these who go to school or whose parents send their kids to school are not appreciative of the "azadi struggle"?

I think that is foolhardy if you think that. And I would be surprised if the govt. actually belives that just by having kids going to school and colleges the problem will be solved. 

Why fall into the "trap" of being shown as trying to keep Kashmiris illietrate so as to have easy control over them by opposing education in the first place? How can Geelani or the protestors be afraid that the same youth who took part in protests will now "betray" them by going to school? Its not going to reduce the sentiment just because they are going to school.

They can still have the regular protest calendars on weekends or school holidays or inother forms.


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## muse

The Indian response in captive Kashmir is nothing shorty of absolutely fascinating and instructive - they have tried so many things, malign the movement by conflating it with radical Islamism, de-legitimize the movement by attacking the leadership, attacking the protesters, attacking the organizers, mobilize media internationally

And yet it isn't taking - what gives?


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## EjazR

Its JKLF that is making these statements on BBC. Where is India coming from?

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## SpArK

Demonstration in Srinagar against Pakistan&#8217;s Gilgit-Baltistan Package

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## EjazR

View topic - Jirga - 20th September 2010 - Pak Politics | Talk Shows | Forum | Discussion | News | Columns &bull;

Hameed Gul Former DG ISI, Maulana Fazal-ur-Rehman and Kuldeep Nayyar New Delhi India in fresh episode of Jirga in GEO Tv and discusses with Saleem Safi.


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## EjazR

NEW DELHI: In a move which could bring cheers to students in Kashmir valley appearing for their board examinations next year, the CBSE has said it will take a "sympathetic view" on providing relaxations to them on matters of attendance.

The development comes after a school in the valley approached the CBSE with the issue as the days of unrest in the state had left schools closed for over 100 days.

Sources in the Board said that given the situation the students had to undergo, the Board will take a "sympathetic view" on the issue of providing relaxations to them on matters of attendance.

Indications are that several more CBSE-affiliated schools are also planning to approach the Board.

CBSE's stand may reduce the anxieties of students as CBSE rule mandates a minimum of 75 per cent attendance in classes for appearing in the class X and class XII examinations.

Sources said the Board was also exploring how to help the students catch up with the syllabus.

Read more: CBSE may give attendance relaxations to Kashmiri examinees - The Times of India CBSE may give attendance relaxations to Kashmiri examinees - The Times of India


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## SpArK

Hope in the valley:Students attend classes at a private school at Lal Chowk in Srinagar on Monday.
















​


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## silent hill

what i understand is, firstly it were these movements that bharatis thought of having pakistan connection, JKLF must be making these statements just out of dissapointment that pakistan govt is not giving enough support to them morally so they are now expressing their jealousy by saying that??? JKLF already supports militantancy

but its good, bharatis posting these news may realize pakistan has nothing to do with these movements and they are thriving just because of bharati criminal attitude..

yasin malik was a very pro pakistani before


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## silent hill

BENNY said:


> Demonstration in Srinagar against Pakistans Gilgit-Baltistan Package



isnt j and K already a province of india, its india not pakistan that doesnt believe in fair and square referendom, and leaving the choice to kashmiris, what they want???

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## EjazR

^^^Pakistan has everything to do with militant and armed movements in Kashmir. 90s is not that old you know.

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## EjazR

*Jawans to get cash rewards for restraint in J&K - India News - IBNLive*

Srinagar: After the Centre's eight-point proposal to ease the Kashmir crisis, the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) is making efforts with their own initiative. The CRPF has announced rewards for jawans who exercise restraint in the face of violent mobs.

To be able to control violent protests on the streets of Kashmir and to do it effectively without the use of violent means is a challenge. Hence to deal with the situation the CRPF has now come up with a reward policy - monetary incentives for its men who show restraint while facing violent mobs.

We are giving out Rs 2500 for minor hurt and Rs 7500 to men with grievous injuries. This is not a compensation for their injuries. This is a reward for maintaining restraint, said Special DG CRPF, J&K.

Even as the police and the CRPF claim that maximum restraint is being observed, there is no denying that over 100 people have died in Kashmir in the last three months. Forces claim that in extreme situations, extreme measures will be resorted to.

While security men have been criticised for use of excessive force on protestors, CRPF men say that they have also been the target of constant attacks from civilians. They claim that in the last three months, over 1,400 of CRPF men were injured and 50 base camps attacked.

Our men have been attacked inside their bunkers. Their vehicles have been set on fire. There have been incidents when they barely escaped, said N.K. Tripathi Special DG, CRPF, J&K.

With rising incidents of stone pelting, CRPF men had earlier procured new protective anti-riot gear. It had also announced raising fresh battalions to deal specifically with stone pelters. The attempts that mark a beginning, may take some time to show real effect.


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## somebozo

Now they will all love to be stoned! How absurd does it get!


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## Baahubali

somebozo said:


> Now they will all love to be stoned! How absurd does it get!



Look at it this way, it was only because of their restraint that only 100 people got killed. The number could have run much higher had they not exercised this restraint.

After all it is very easy to lose restraint when you are being attacked with stones and bamboo sticks and you have all the means and legal protection to respond with lethal force and yet you choose not to.

It is very human to lose restraint you know.


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## civfanatic

EjazR said:


> So what I understand is that you think those protestors who are pelting stones or preventing kids from going to school are wrong, but it may happen because these protestors feel that these who go to school or whose parents send their kids to school are not appreciative of the "azadi struggle"?
> 
> I think that is foolhardy if you think that. And I would be surprised if the govt. actually belives that just by having kids going to school and colleges the problem will be solved.
> 
> Why fall into the "trap" of being shown as trying to keep Kashmiris illietrate so as to have easy control over them by opposing education in the first place? How can Geelani or the protestors be afraid that the same youth who took part in protests will now "betray" them by going to school? Its not going to reduce the sentiment just because they are going to school.
> 
> They can still have the regular protest calendars on weekends or school holidays or inother forms.


Your basic premise is wrong that the protest programe is foisted upon students against their will . Morever OCT -NOV is time for anual exams in Kashmir so what is the fun in getting Kids to school when they should be preparing for exams at home . If and when datesheets are anounced I'm sure Hurriyat will accomdate that in its protest Calender .


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## civfanatic

The ways India finds for rewarding its murderous soldiers


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## EjazR

civfanatic said:


> Your basic premise is wrong that the *protest programe is foisted upon students against their will *. Morever OCT -NOV is time for anual exams in Kashmir so what is the fun in getting Kids to school when they should be preparing for exams at home . If and when datesheets are anounced I'm sure Hurriyat will accomdate that in its protest Calender .



No I never said that at all. I said that in some cases this is happening. And not just in school cases but others aswell. Like stone pelting on shop owners who want to open their shops, on ambulances in some places as well as cases of stone pelting on public transport buses which was carrying passengers from Pakistani side of LoC.

It is happening in some cases and this is wrong. Because this is plain intimidation to the minority (as you are saying) that doesnot want to follow the protest prgram. If they are in a minority, why are the protestors afraid of these people not following the program?


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## Sprint

civfanatic said:


> The ways India finds for rewarding its murderous soldiers



That was moronic statement: 
We actually are capitalist Gandhian's. few days later you would see the agitators getting this money and and then crap freedom movement is dead (as the old saying goes when money talks bull**** walks).


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## Areesh

civfanatic said:


> The ways India finds for rewarding its murderous soldiers



Well that is the only way they can keep them in IOK. To control their frustration this is best tactic, bribe them for shooting civilians.

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## civfanatic

EjazR said:


> No I never said that at all. I said that in some cases this is happening. And not just in school cases but others aswell. Like stone pelting on shop owners who want to open their shops, on ambulances in some places as well as cases of stone pelting on public transport buses which was carrying passengers from Pakistani side of LoC.
> 
> It is happening in some cases and this is wrong. Because this is plain intimidation to the minority (as you are saying) that doesnot want to follow the protest prgram. If they are in a minority, why are the protestors afraid of these people not following the program?



There is no organized targeting or intimidation but at local level people do get angry and sometimes it leads to violence and this is understandable because common people see these collaborators as deriving benefit from there misery


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## flameboard

Thats pure propaganda, trying to give a bad name to people asking for freedom.. If Kashmir becomes a part of Pakistan and the majority of Kashmir want to be independant, Pakistan will not only let them but also aid in this. Even though in great number the people wanting to be free of both countires is low infront of those who want to annexate with Pakistan.


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## EjazR

civfanatic said:


> There is no organized targeting or intimidation but at local level people do get angry and sometimes it leads to violence and this is understandable because common people see these collaborators as deriving benefit from there misery



I can't see how they can get benefit from other people's misery. I am actually suprised you would think that. What benefit are people sitting on a bus to LoC getting? Or those going to school getting? Or those in ambulances ferring injured or doctors getting?

Things like social boycott to people who are pro-India, burning houses of people who are ministers or relatives of ministers e.t.c. is wrong no matter how you try to justify it. It is UnIslamic to punish someone for the crimes of others.

Anyways, all I am saying is that before pro-independance and pro-India people use to be intimidated by guns and death threats from Pakistani based militant groups in the 90s. And still is to an extent. After all the shooting of Faz-i-Haq Qureshi who was involved in getting a politcal settlement to bring peace to the valley is not that old. 

So the sollution to this problem will not happen overnight. Its not for example a payment hike issue where once a company agreed to the increment, you can stop the strikes. Otherwise the company keeps suffering financial losses.

The strikes of not going to school and not opening business--which is basically what it is revolving around---is affecting the Kashmiri people at the end of the day more than the government. 

Infact, a nutty conspiracy theory I saw on facebook was how a Kashmiri believed that this type of protest program with no clearly defined politcal end goal was a trick of the Indian government. He is pro-independance and apparently doesn't trust Geelani. He cited that Geelani was released by a deal with Imar govt. to start this so as to cut down the financial and education legs of the Kashmiris with which they could extricate themselves out. By this protests Indian security is now more entrenched than ever and Kashmiri businesses are in ruins. 
Its another thing that his solution was to build up financial resources and then go to the Chinese for arms and then get their support to intervene to create an independant state which I found even more crazy.


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## mikey

When everything fails . Then u have to use xtreme step.. And yeah! They are murderous because they also screw f**kin unwanted guests ..


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## Leonidas

I respect our armed forces & their sacrifices like any other patriotic Indian but this time there had been a mistake & we need to admit it to correct it. I don't know the ground realities in which they operated but i still feel that there's always a margin to save the loss of lives of your own countrymen.


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## civfanatic

EjazR said:


> I can't see how they can get benefit from other people's misery. I am actually suprised you would think that. What benefit are people sitting on a bus to LoC getting? Or those going to school getting? Or those in ambulances ferring injured or doctors getting?
> 
> Things like social boycott to people who are pro-India, burning houses of people who are ministers or relatives of ministers e.t.c. is wrong no matter how you try to justify it. It is UnIslamic to punish someone for the crimes of others.
> 
> Anyways, all I am saying is that before pro-independance and pro-India people use to be intimidated by guns and death threats from Pakistani based militant groups in the 90s. And still is to an extent. After all the shooting of Faz-i-Haq Qureshi who was involved in getting a politcal settlement to bring peace to the valley is not that old.
> 
> So the sollution to this problem will not happen overnight. Its not for example a payment hike issue where once a company agreed to the increment, you can stop the strikes. Otherwise the company keeps suffering financial losses.
> 
> The strikes of not going to school and not opening business--which is basically what it is revolving around---is affecting the Kashmiri people at the end of the day more than the government.
> 
> Infact, a nutty conspiracy theory I saw on facebook was how a Kashmiri believed that this type of protest program with no clearly defined politcal end goal was a trick of the Indian government. He is pro-independance and apparently doesn't trust Geelani. He cited that Geelani was released by a deal with Imar govt. to start this so as to cut down the financial and education legs of the Kashmiris with which they could extricate themselves out. By this protests Indian security is now more entrenched than ever and Kashmiri businesses are in ruins.
> Its another thing that his solution was to build up financial resources and then go to the Chinese for arms and then get their support to intervene to create an independant state which I found even more crazy.



Govt is using its power to disburse patronage to create a vested minority to delegitimize a struggle built upon sacrifices of a whole population . If you can't see it as case of deriving benefits from misery of others then there is no point in debating .
The guy you mentioned is not nutty he is nuttier than a fruitcake .There are lot of his ilk on face book .


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## civfanatic

Day 2: No improvement in school attendance



> *Day 2: No improvement in school attendance*
> 
> Srinagar, Sept 28: Despite no improvement in the student attendance, government and several private schools remained open for the second consecutive day Tuesday across the Kashmir Valley.
> 
> 
> 
> In Srinagar, while most of the private educational Institutions remained closed in response to the call by Private School Coordination Committee, the Delhi Public School also opted to remain closed due to security concerns.
> However, two of the premier private educational institutions, Tyndale-Biscoe and Mallinson and Burn Hall schools saw no improvement over Monday as student attendance in these two schools ramained between 15-20 percent. There was no improvement as far as student attendance but despite all odds we managed to keep the school open, said an official of the Burn Hall School.
> The scenario at Raj Baghs British School was no different as only 10 students showed up for Day Two. Our school was open but attendance was as good as yesterday's, said Sadiq Hussain, Principal British School.
> The government and semi-government educational institutions saw full staff attendance but minimal students. Like yesterday, no student came to the college for studies although the whole teaching and non-teaching staff was present, said a lecturer of Islamia College of Science and Commerce, Hawal.
> He said strict curfew across the old city and other areas made it difficult even for the staff to reach respective educational institutions. Most of the students coming to the college are teenagers and they are apprehensive to attend because of the harsh curfew and presence of troopers on roads. Moreover, the movement of staff is also difficult as they are being frequently questioned while on way to the colleges and schools, the lecturer said.
> Meanwhile, the attendance in the colleges and Higher Secondary, including SP College, Government College for Women, and Girls Higher Secondary Kothi Bagh (schools situated across the City-centre Lal Chowk) dipped when compared to Monday. No student came to the college today. All those who came here were students appearing in B.ED examinations being held by the University of Kashmir, said an employee at GCW at M A Road.
> Around 10 to 15 students attended in both the Government Higher Secondary Schools Kothi Bagh and Amira Kadal that have a combined roll of more than 500 students.
> 
> SOUTH
> 
> In south Kashmirs Islamabad town only two schools re-opened which later were closed after youth allegedly pelted stones in the area. The government schools at Nazuk Mohalla and Central High School at Hazratbal were closed after clashes broke in the area, an official in Education Department said
> However, private institutions like al-Sarvat remained open but no students attended as no school buses were sent to pick up the students. Both the colleges in the town also remained closed.
> The story was same across major towns of South Kashmir which include Pulwama, Kulgam and Shopian.
> Moderate attendance of students in both government and private institutions was recorded in rural areas of these districts.
> Meanwhile, teachers decried opening of the schools during strike and curfew days alleging they came under heavy stones from protesters. We had to come on foot to school. All 22 staff members had come today but no student turned up. We are under threat as the protesters have stoned this school during our presence, Principal In-charge of Government Higher Secondary School, Pigleena Pulwama, told Rising Kashmir over phone.
> The school teachers alleged their lives are at risk if they are not provided security and vehicles. Government claimed to provide us security but we have on our own during curfew, said a teacher of the school.
> However, moderate attendance of students in both government and private institutions was recorded in rural areas of these districts.
> 
> NORTH
> 
> Meanwhile, despite strict instructions from the government to resume normal schooling, almost all schools and educational institutions remained closed in the north Kashmir towns of Sopore, Baramulla, Kupwara, Bandipore, Pattan and other areas.
> However, schools in Tangmarg and its peripheries remained open. The Higher Secondary Kunzer, Changoloora and other prestigious private institutions resumed normal schooling on second day in succession.
> However, the prestigious St Joseph School, Public School, Norrul Islam, Neitherfield, Welkin Educational Trust, Muslim Educational Trust and all others in Baramulla and Sopore remained locked.
> Likewise, main schools in Kupwara like Alexander School, Public School, Usmaina School and others could not start functioning on second consecutive day.
> In Pattan, although teachers were present in the respective schools, less than 10 percent attendance was seen in some schools. Most of them did not witness single student presence.


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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> Hope in the valley:Students attend classes at a private school at Lal Chowk in Srinagar on Monday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​




Good to see them back in business... Geelani where will he hide the shame??


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## kingdurgaking

civfanatic said:


> The concern of government to wards students is politically motivated otherwise they won't have killed more than 100 people mostly students , put thousands of students behind bars under draconian PSA (which allows govt to jail upto two years without trial ).The student community of Kashmir understood machinations of Govt and comprehended that this belated concern for their education is a ploy to disparage and marginalize Geelani sahib . The students in Kashmir realize that most of those who died have been students and infarct students have faced the worst repression by state .
> It was crafty move by Govt to use the kids of bureaucrats ho study in elite schools of Kashmir and then use their media to propagate that people are defying Hurriyat . If some school kid got injured I would be sad but I would blame Govt for using a section of students to play its dirty politics



I dont think the government started the protest.. instead the hurriyat group started the protest.... if they want to protest they could have protested in peaceful way like hunger strike, human chain etc etc.. which will bring the world's attention ... what is this childish way of protesting by throwing stones??? see the maturity of the protester here?? did we get independence by throwing stone on Britishers??

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## Storm Force

_When a neutral person from outside the subcontinent looks at Pakistan's claim he or she goes - "A country which has been a military dictatorship for half its existence if fighting for the democratic rights of a region which has been democratic...you have to be kidding." _

Nice comment jackdaws never looked at it that way before


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Storm Force said:


> _When a neutral person from outside the subcontinent looks at Pakistan's claim he or she goes - "A country which has been a military dictatorship for half its existence if fighting for the democratic rights of a region which has been democratic...you have to be kidding." _
> 
> Nice comment jackdaws never looked at it that way before



A country which has been ''democratic'' doesn't seem to apply its ''democratic'' ideals and stardards to a land/territory that is disputed, and has up to date been a disputed territory

therefore, unfortunately, such a 'theory' has little application here.


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## Storm Force

disputed only in pakistans minds and books.

REST OF THE WORLD don,t care and wont be helping you raise the ante.

Pakistan has reached a brick wall or dead end on KASHMIR... now

They are on their own now........... no one is listening esp the indians


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## RollingStones

Storm Force said:


> disputed only in pakistans minds and books.
> 
> REST OF THE WORLD don,t care and wont be helping you raise the ante.
> 
> Pakistan has reached a brick wall or dead end on KASHMIR... now
> 
> They are on their own now........... no one is listening esp the indians



Watching the video, I concluded some things:

- the State Government does have power to do some things like revoking the DAA. It is not a puppet government as claimed by some Pakistani folks here. 
- by virtue of point one, there exists a federal structure, which is exactly how it should be
- opposition to some of the measures seem to come from kashmiris themselves while support comes from other kashmiris - a good sign of democracy and the majority prevails rule. 
- it appears that the armed forces can be overruled at the State Government level itself (that gives it a good amount of power over the situation).

The above being the case, I fail to understand what is preventing the State Government from using its police forces wisely. Drawing on that, why are kashmiris shouting slogans against the federal structure (they seem to imply that somehow everything minus Kashmir is India, which to begin with is a federal structure), when the roots of their problems might lie with their own governance. I am beginning to think that this is why the rest of the Indian Muslims are beginning to wonder how exactly are Muslims of Kashmir different from the rest of India's Muslims who are living within a federal structure. And the funny thing is this assertion by Kashmiris that everything minus Kashmir is India and when they say India oppresses them, does it actually mean a State, lets say, in the South of India or east of India has agreed to oppress Kashmiris through the federal structure. Either the Kashmiris are implying the rest of India is one giant contiguous state will all powers in Delhi and every State acts in the same way to oppress them (for whatever reason), or they dont get what a federation or a federal structure means. If the assumption is that States have powers in India, then the federal government can only do so much. It cant go around oppressing people of selected states. It doesnt seem to have happened in Muslim dominated districts of Other Indian States. Why is this? Is this because other Indian states have protected the Muslim dominated districts in their State from the Federal Government? If this is a yes, then it agains shows States have powers and the Kashmir district should be able to protect itself in this federal structure. If this is a NO, then we would see similar freedom movements in other muslim dominated districts in India, which is not happening. So, back to the original question, how exactly are Muslims in kashmir district different from the Muslims of another Muslim majority district in India? And what powers of theirs has exactly been usurped by the federation (all other other States and peoples of India)? Looking at all these logical questions, it looks like Kashmiris used the term "India" not to connote a federation, but as some power in the corridors of Delhi that directly somehow controls their district. There are a lot of holes here and a lot of thoughtless rebellions. If the rest of the States of India so something which prove that the federal government cannot indeed do much without their majority approval, would the Kashmirs then claim that the State of Assam, let's say, wants to oppress them. I am not clear about what Kashmiris want. What is it that they are not getting in the current federal structure is the question to ask?


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## Omar1984

*OIC's position on Kashmir is parallel to UN: Ihsanoglu​*
UNITED NATIONS  The Organisation of the Islamic Conference stands for the resolution of the Kashmir dispute through negotiations between India and Pakistan on the basis of the United Nations Security Council resolutions, the head of OIC has said.

Our position on the Kashmir dispute is parallel to the United Nations, Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, Secretary General of OIC, told correspondents during a press conference at UN Headquarters in New York on Monday afternoon.
Responding to a question, he said the OIC cannot bridge the differences between the parties concerned because India does not recognise the role of the organisation in the dispute. On other subjects, Ihsanoglu called on the international community to counter hatred, intolerance and discrimination against Muslims everywhere, saying that the acts of a few extremist fanatics were being used to associate Islam with terrorism.

He said that during their Annual Coordination Meeting, held last Thursday in New York, OIC Ministers for Foreign Affairs had adopted a declaration on countering Islamophobia. The declaration, among other things, expressed deep concern over the growing violent acts against Muslims in some Western societies and called for global awareness of its dangerous implications for world peace and security.

Negative stereotyping on the basis of religion, faith or race was wrong, he said. Terrorism and anti-Western and anti-American views could not be associated with Muslim countries and Islam anymore than the burning of the Holy Quran could be equated with the United States and Christianity.

We are against these hate-mongering campaigns, he said. He lauded the United States government and community and religious leaders for speaking out against and preventing the recently proposed burn a Quran day from becoming a reality. We think that, in this case, American public opinion has shown a great maturity; the American administration has shown great responsibility.

On the Middle East peace process, he said Israel should suspend all settlement activity in the occupied Palestinian territory. OIC supported direct talks between the Israelis and Palestinians and it continued to support the Arab Peace Initiative aimed at normalising relations between Arab countries and Israel, in exchange for Israels full withdrawal from the Occupied Territory and creation and recognition of an independent Palestinian State.

Were for a peaceful vision whereby a Palestinian state with its capital as East Jerusalem lives side by side with the State of Israel, he said. The problem is nobody knows whether Israel shares this vision or not.

In the past 20 years, one Israeli administration after another had demanded and won concessions from their Palestinian counterparts, but then refused to make good on promises to them, saying they were not responsible for the agreements of preceding administrations. I think now its high time for everybody to honour their commitments and we are supportive of President [Mahmoud] Abbas position on this case, he said.

He stressed the need for peaceful coexistence among all religious groups in the region and a two-state solution, adding, We should not really punish the Palestinian people because there was a Holocaust in Germany.

Asked if OIC would accept a Jewish state of Israel next to a Palestinian state when the Palestinian Authority President had not, he said the matter was for the Palestinian leadership and that OIC would support whatever it decided.

He said ridding the region of WMD was the best way to reduce tension, conflict, bloodshed and competition for armament. Double standards on disarmament must end. We have to have one yardstick, he said, stressing that no country should be exempt from weapons inspections and all must abide by the same rules set by the Security Council, IAEA and other international bodies. 

Moreover, nuclear disarmament must be integral to the peace process. Asked about the Iranian Presidents statement last week calling for a UN investigation into the 11 September 2001 attacks and saying that most people believed the US Government had orchestrated those attacks, he said he disagreed with that assessment.


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## Omar1984

*Pak slams Indian repression in IHK​*





UNITED NATIONS  In a sharply worded speech to the UN General Assembly, Pakistan on Tuesday strongly condemned Indias repression in Kashmir and called for resolving the decades-old dispute in accordance with the UN resolutions.

Pakistan reaffirms its complete solidarity with the Kashmiri people, and urges the international community to persuade India to end its repression in Kashmir, Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi told the 192-member assembly.

Diplomats noted the pointed references to UN resolutions in the Foreign Ministers speech. In the past few years, Pakistan merely called for a peaceful settlement of the Kashmir issue through negotiations. The human rights of the Kashmiri people must be respected, and their voices be heard to create an enabling environment for a peaceful solution of the longstanding Jammu and Kashmir dispute, Qureshi said.

The Foreign Minister has so far avoided meeting his Indian counterpart S.M. Krishna insisting that the talks must be meaningful and result-oriented. He told reporters Monday that he has made some proposals to the Indian side through diplomatic channels. If the response is positive, I would have no hesitation to enter into talks, he said.

At the outset of his wide-ranging address to the assembly, Qureshi drew attention to the huge human and material damages caused by the unprecedented floods in Pakistan and thanked the UN, the countrys development partners and other friends for standing up with us in coping with the difficult challenge. He called for an early conclusion of the climate change negotiations, noting Pakistans vulnerability to the impact of global warming. 

Dealing with the deteriorating situation in the occupied Kashmir, he voiced grave concern over the recent developments marked by the killing by Indian security forces of more than 100 Kashmir seeking their legitimate right to self-determination. 

We strongly condemn this brutality, he told representatives of member states arranged in front of him in the gold-and-blue hall.

The Jammu and Kashmir dispute is about the exercise of the right to self-determination by the Kashmiri people through a free, fair and impartial plebiscite under the UN auspices, he reminded his audience.

Pakistan reaffirms its complete solidarity with the Kashmiri people, and urges the international community to persuade India to end its repression in Kashmir, Qureshi said.

Pakistan, he said, was willing to engage India in a comprehensive dialogue to normalize relations between the two countries by finding amicable solutions to all outstanding issues, including the core dispute of Jammu and Kashmir.

A peaceful resolution of Kashmir dispute in accordance with the UN Resolutions and taking into account the aspirations of the Kashmiri people would create a conducive atmosphere for durable peace and stability in the South Asian region, he added. 

On other subjects of concern to Pakistan, the Foreign Minister reaffirmed his governments supports to the just cause of Palestinian people for the restitution of their inalienable national rights, including their independent Palestinian state, with Al-Quds Al-Sharif as its capital.

The brazen use of force against the humanitarian Freedom Flotilla on 31st of May 2010, which resulted in the killing of humanitarian workers, was a flagrant violation of international law and norms, he said of the Israeli military raid. We look forward to a prompt, impartial and transparent inquiry of the incident by the UN Secretary Generals panel.

Pakistans commitment to the promotion of peace, security and stability; development of friendly relations with other nations; respect for the sovereignty and territorial integrity and promotion of economic and social development was unwavering, he said.

It is this firm conviction that has enabled our democratic government to remain steadfast in its resolve to fight terrorism and extremism, even as we have to deal with the massive destruction caused by catastrophic floods. Our national consensus and resolve to fight extremism and terrorism remains unshaken, Qureshi said.

The world recognises and applauds the important successes achieved by our security forces against terrorists, he said, adding that in the process Pakistan lost more than 20,000 innocent civilians to terrorism and over 2,500 personnel of the security forces involving material losses of nearly US $ 50 billion.

He also underscored the need for addressing the root causes of terrorism, which are often found in poverty, deprivation, injustices and oppression.

Terrorists recognise no borders; have no religion and no creed. It is, therefore, absurd to malign a whole people or a region or any religion on this account.

Pakistan strongly rejected the stereotyping of Muslims as terrorists, Qureshi said. Islam is a religion of peace, compassion and brotherhood. Terrorism is a complete antithesis to Islams humanistic outlook and noble values.

On Afghanistan, the Foreign Minister told the member states that no country has suffered more than Pakistan from the direct and indirect consequences of decades of conflict in Afghanistan. We, thus, have an abiding stake in peace and stability in Afghanistan. Our commitment to this objective remains firm.

The time has come to transform Afghanistan from the centre stage of proxy wars, interference and confrontation into a hub for international cooperation and development.

Restoring the societal equilibrium in Afghanistan is an Afghan responsibility and cannot be imposed externally, he said. We support all efforts at national reconciliation that are Afghan-owned and Afghan-led.

On the issue of disarmament and non-proliferation, the Foreign Minister said, We believe that this should be pursued in an equitable and non-discriminatory manner.

Asymmetric build-up of conventional weapons and espousal of aggressive doctrines, impact negatively on regional security... We have consistently pursued a policy of conventional and nuclear restraint, along with conflict resolution in South Asia. We reaffirm our proposal for a Strategic Restraint Regime as an important modality to promote the cause of peace, stability and security in our region.

On the reform of the 15-member UN Security Council, Qureshi said the process must be guided by the principles of equality and democracy, which could conform to a dynamic future, not entrenched in the historical mistakes and individual privileges of the past. 

India, Brazil, Germany and Japan and aspiring for permanent seats in an expanded council. Pakistan, a leader in the Uniting for Consensus (UfC) group, opposes any additional permanent members. Instead the group supports more non-permanent members with the possibility of re-election.

We should look for an outcome that unites rather than divides the membership; strengthens rather than weakens the organization, the Foreign Minister said. Our collective search should culminate in a consensus solution that corresponds to the interest of entire membership; particularly small and medium states, the developing countries and Africa.

On the domestic front, Qureshi told the assembly, With an active and empowered Parliament, a vigilant and well-informed civil society, free media and independent judiciary, the democratic government is putting in place mechanisms to ensure good and accountable governance at all levels in the country.

The democratic government, inspired by the vision of Shaheed Benazir Bhutto, attaches special attention to the promotion and protection of human rights of all segments of society; particularly women, children and minorities.

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## desiman

ya keep slamming, no one is listening.

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## Ganguly

No Krishna-Qureshi talks in New York as war of words breaks out

New York: Expectations of a bilateral meeting between the Foreign Ministers of India and Pakistan on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly have been dashed with a war of words breaking out between the two sides. 

Foreign minister S M Krishna on Tuesday slammed his Pakistani counterpart Shah Mahmood Qureshi over his statement on Kashmir at the United Nations.

"I am genuinely disappointed over the unacceptable references made by the Pakistani Foreign Minister in his address at the United Nations General Assembly (UNGA). Pakistan is a country that has enormous internal challenges confronting it, such unsolicited remarks cannot divert attention from the internal problems they are having," Krishna said, speaking at a meeting of the Asiatic Society, soon after Qureshi's speech at the UNGA.

Krishna also said Pakistan is trying to "deflect attention" by using "Kashmir as a ploy."

"There is a pattern and the pattern you know is whenever things big are happening in India, they try or in other words distress over takes them and they try to divert people's attention by using Kashmir as a ploy and this is the way they have gone on in the last 60 years."

Speaking at the UNGA, the Pakistan Foreign Minister had raised the issue of Kashmir again.

"The Jammu and Kashmir dispute is about the exercise of the right to self-determination by the Kashmiri people through a free, fair and impartial plebiscite under the UN auspices. Pakistan views the prevailing situation in the Indian Occupied Kashmir with grave concern," he had said. (Watch)

But India has left the window open for possible talks in New Delhi by extending an invitation to Qureshi for the Commonwealth Games in Delhi.

Speaking to NDTV, SM Krishna said this could give a chance for talks.

"Well we will certainly invite all foreign ministers. We will be delighted to have foreign ministers. And Foreign Minister Qureshi is most welcome to witness some of the Games at least, and there again give us a chance to have, to continue the dialogue," he said. 

Sources have told NDTV that India believes that Pakistan has to demonstrate its sincerity in bridging the trust deficit and that action on 26/11 will be the biggest confidence building measure.

Late on Monday night, Qureshi had also said that any talks between the two countries need to be "meaningful."

Pakistan's Foreign Minister had also noted that Islamabad had sent "some suggestions" through diplomatic channels to New Delhi about these talks.

Without going to specific details about these "suggestions," Qureshi had said that he was awaiting a response from the Indian side.

When asked if the suggestions given by Pakistan were conditions for talks, Qureshi told NDTV, "No no, I don't believe in conditions. I don't believe in any preconditions, but the issues that are outstanding are known to everyone."

When asked what these issues are, Qureshi replied, "Kashmir is a burning issue. It has been on the negotiating table. It has been on the UN agenda. It has been part of the composite dialogue. And India and Pakistan have agreed to talk about it. Siachen is an issue, it is under discussion."

"What I have been suggesting is that engagement is in the interest of both countries. I am an advocate of good neighbourly and peaceful relations recogonising the fact that there are outstanding issues. We have agreed to resolve them through peaceful means. The way out is engagement, dialogue, consultations," he added.

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## mikey

yawnnn... Next ................

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## bandit

Omar1984 said:


> *Pak slams Indian repression in IHK​*
> On the issue of disarmament and non-proliferation, the Foreign Minister said, &#8220;We believe that this should be pursued in an equitable and non-discriminatory manner.
> 
> &#8220;Asymmetric build-up of conventional weapons and espousal of aggressive doctrines, impact negatively on regional security... We have consistently pursued a policy of conventional and nuclear restraint, along with conflict resolution in South Asia. We reaffirm our proposal for a Strategic Restraint Regime as an important modality to promote the cause of peace, stability and security in our region.&#8221;



Pakistan has the brazenness to talk of arms race, I mean, lets reconsider for a moment-

-_Singularly _continues to block treaty to ban production of fissile material, used as fuel for nuclear weapons 
-_Non-Signatory _to the NPT.
-_Espousal of aggresive doctrines_, I suppose the FM is willingly unknowing of Pakistan's first use policy; and mention of Indian aggresiveness is a bit bizarre considering no first use policy on our side.

Mentioning Kashmir is just the expression of frustration on internationalizing the issue, which has been hopeless for his Govt.

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## EagleEyes

mikey said:


> yawnnn... Next ................





desiman said:


> ya keep slamming, no one is listening.



*Both Banned. Dont post if you got nothing worth to contribute. Thanks.*

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## afriend

By the various comments coming from Pakistan, it seems the very existence of Pakistan is depended on Kashmir, and they have no other issues. I think, they should tackle the menace of terrorism first, and then sit down for any meaningful discussion.

As long as the policy of the country is influenced or affected by the terrorist elements, noone can have trust on Pakistan, as what one leader say today might not be what the next one saying, all due to pressure from extremists..!!!


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## Enigma

desiman said:


> ya keep slamming, no one is listening.




they have been doing it past 6 decades. No outcome yet.

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## roach

If Pakstan has noticed, nobody is really listening. The world realizes that Pakistan has much more to worry about than shedding crocodile tears about Kashmir while remaining silent on repression of Muslim minorities by their allies and best friends.
In this day and age, Kashmiris have a lot going for them- opportunity to practice and express their religion and culture PEACEFULLY, an opportunity to elect leaders to govern them, a chance to travel to, and settle anywhere in India (even though nobody else from India can do the same in Kashmir). 

The GOI is bending over backwards to accommodate this minuscule minority because of the noise they are making. An improvement in governance and security is needed, and they need to co-operate to live and let live.

As a responsible Indian, and a state subject of J&K of I empathize with Kashmiris and understand they have legitimate grievances. But 'talli ek haath se nahi bajti'....it takes two hands to clap. At some point if Kashmiris do not get their act together (with the rest of India)and keep listening to mischief-mongering neighbors that promise a nebulous 'Azadi' with revenge for past actions as the hidden motive......

If this BS continues......I see myself supporting a repeal of Art 370 of the Indian constitution and a deliberate policy of ethnic dilution. Let the Merchants come in, buy out Kashmir, and turn it into an amusement park.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Statements for their domestic audience.

Even our Indian leaders do that.


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## WHF

Omar1984 said:


> *OIC's position on Kashmir is parallel to UN: Ihsanoglu​*
> UNITED NATIONS  The Organisation of the Islamic Conference stands for the resolution of the Kashmir dispute through negotiations between India and Pakistan on the basis of the United Nations Security Council resolutions, the head of OIC has said.
> 
> Our position on the Kashmir dispute is parallel to the United Nations, Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, Secretary General of OIC, told correspondents during a press conference at UN Headquarters in New York on Monday afternoon.
> Responding to a question, he said the OIC cannot bridge the differences between the parties concerned because India does not recognise the role of the organisation in the dispute. On other subjects, Ihsanoglu called on the international community to counter hatred, intolerance and discrimination against Muslims everywhere, saying that the acts of a few extremist fanatics were being used to associate Islam with terrorism.
> 
> He said that during their Annual Coordination Meeting, held last Thursday in New York, OIC Ministers for Foreign Affairs had adopted a declaration on countering Islamophobia. The declaration, among other things, expressed deep concern over the growing violent acts against Muslims in some Western societies and called for global awareness of its dangerous implications for world peace and security.
> 
> Negative stereotyping on the basis of religion, faith or race was wrong, he said. Terrorism and anti-Western and anti-American views could not be associated with Muslim countries and Islam anymore than the burning of the Holy Quran could be equated with the United States and Christianity.
> 
> We are against these hate-mongering campaigns, he said. He lauded the United States government and community and religious leaders for speaking out against and preventing the recently proposed burn a Quran day from becoming a reality. We think that, in this case, American public opinion has shown a great maturity; the American administration has shown great responsibility.
> 
> On the Middle East peace process, he said Israel should suspend all settlement activity in the occupied Palestinian territory. OIC supported direct talks between the Israelis and Palestinians and it continued to support the Arab Peace Initiative aimed at normalising relations between Arab countries and Israel, in exchange for Israels full withdrawal from the Occupied Territory and creation and recognition of an independent Palestinian State.
> 
> Were for a peaceful vision whereby a Palestinian state with its capital as East Jerusalem lives side by side with the State of Israel, he said. The problem is nobody knows whether Israel shares this vision or not.
> 
> In the past 20 years, one Israeli administration after another had demanded and won concessions from their Palestinian counterparts, but then refused to make good on promises to them, saying they were not responsible for the agreements of preceding administrations. I think now its high time for everybody to honour their commitments and we are supportive of President [Mahmoud] Abbas position on this case, he said.
> 
> He stressed the need for peaceful coexistence among all religious groups in the region and a two-state solution, adding, We should not really punish the Palestinian people because there was a Holocaust in Germany.
> 
> Asked if OIC would accept a Jewish state of Israel next to a Palestinian state when the Palestinian Authority President had not, he said the matter was for the Palestinian leadership and that OIC would support whatever it decided.
> 
> He said ridding the region of WMD was the best way to reduce tension, conflict, bloodshed and competition for armament. Double standards on disarmament must end. We have to have one yardstick, he said, stressing that no country should be exempt from weapons inspections and all must abide by the same rules set by the Security Council, IAEA and other international bodies.
> 
> Moreover, nuclear disarmament must be integral to the peace process. Asked about the Iranian Presidents statement last week calling for a UN investigation into the 11 September 2001 attacks and saying that most people believed the US Government had orchestrated those attacks, he said he disagreed with that assessment.



The problem is nobody cares what IOC says..And in Kashmir's case India cares nobody.

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## Fasih Khan

India would not listen to the arguments at all. Useless to waste time on it. Pakistan government and the OIC Should think of a better treatment.


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## footmarks

Fasih Khan said:


> India would not listen to the arguments at all. Useless to waste time on it. Pakistan government and the OIC Should think of a better treatment.



Thinking is such a waste of time. "Minding their own business" would be better for Pakistan and IOC.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

footmarks said:


> Thinking is such a waste of time. "Minding their own business" would be better for Pakistan and IOC.



Stop ur ranting......indian boy.... See reality ... ur just blinded by ur nationalism and nothing else....KASHMIR WAS NEVER PART OF INDIA NOR WILL BE.... ITS OCCUPIED.... EVEN UR NEW FRIEND UNCLE SAM CONSIDERS IT DISPUTED.... ALMOST ALL THE WORLD THINKS ITS DISPUTED... U CAN CRY BUT CANT HIDE THE REALITY.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Jackdaws said:


> You need an education - either formal or informal will do. Hyderabad wanted to remain an independent country and it had a right to do so. Kashmir had the right to remain independent and it too had a right to do so.



And u need an education .... so r u sayin u didnt respect hyderabads right ? occupied Junnagarh which wanted to join Pakistan and ur only so called RIGHT was VASED ON IOK?

 Wat does tht make india? a 2 faced country?

So who needs an education ... u can decide..


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## footmarks

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Stop ur b.s indian boy.... See reality ... ur just blinded by ur nationalism and nothing else....KASHMIR WAS NEVER PART OF INDIA NOR WILL BE.... ITS OCCU[PIED.... EVEN UR NEW FERND UNCLE SAM CONSIDERS IT DISPUTED.... ALMOST ALL THE WORLD THINKS ITS DISPUTED... U CAN CRY BUT CANT HIDE THE REALITY.



Uncle ji, Whole world think its disputed. But NONE of them think that its part of Pakistan.


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## hecj

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Stop ur b.s indian boy.... See reality ... ur just blinded by ur nationalism and nothing else....KASHMIR WAS NEVER PART OF INDIA NOR WILL BE.... ITS OCCU[PIED.... EVEN UR NEW FERND UNCLE SAM CONSIDERS IT DISPUTED.... ALMOST ALL THE WORLD THINKS ITS DISPUTED... U CAN CRY BUT CANT HIDE THE REALITY.



kashmir has been a part of india since more than 60 yrs,it will be remained as.when india was weak,didnt give up and u know saying will give up.



> EVEN UR NEW FERND UNCLE SAM CONSIDERS IT DISPUTED...



this uncle sam has been remained as ur strategic ally since 1947.but still u didnt get any thing



> ALMOST ALL THE WORLD THINKS ITS DISPUTED... U CAN CRY BUT CANT HIDE THE REALITY



come out from dreams man.which world u r referring u.whole world sings songs abt u not india.if u r referring to pakistan,china only then it is ok.tell me another country intersted in u.china and pakistan are not whole world.
that will be good 4 u to accept reality.


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## BTG

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Stop ur ranting......indian boy.... See reality ... *ur just blinded by ur nationalism and nothing else....*KASHMIR WAS NEVER PART OF INDIA NOR WILL BE.... ITS OCCUPIED.... EVEN UR NEW FRIEND UNCLE SAM CONSIDERS IT DISPUTED.... ALMOST ALL THE WORLD THINKS ITS DISPUTED... U CAN CRY BUT CANT HIDE THE REALITY.



Hypocrisy... A person accusing others of being blindly nationalistic... when that same person has the name as "Pakistani Nationalist"...

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## DESERT FIGHTER

hecj said:


> this shows that how much pakistan is feared of diplomacy of india.if u have enough power then let india to join n face on grounds.



Wats the def of diplomacy? do u even know it?

Is crying infront of D.C against US arm sales to Pakistan diplomacy? its giving out stupid statements diplomacy? thts ur diplomacy at which u have failed.... be it infront of US or brazil.... 

Its our diplomacy tht ur not a part of OIC! Not my crying but reminding RULES OF OIC!

U cant kill 160000 kashmiris and occupy territory anf be a part of OIC...
Also here indians cry rant about who cares abt OIC yet are crying to be a part of it.......I laugh it ur hipocrisy.


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## SpArK

Its been 5 days since OIC demanded it..

In between we had 2 deals with Saudi and 1 oil and gas deal with Kuwait..
I think they are happy now.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

footmarks said:


> Uncle ji, Whole world think its disputed. But NONE of them think that its part of Pakistan.



Mamoo.. then dont cry.... (Even then they nobdy accepts it a integral part of india wat a shame..... go see the PAKISTANI FLAG THT WAS HOISTED IN SRI NAGAR.


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## footmarks

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Mamoo.. then dont cry.... (Even then they nobdy accepts it a integral part of india wat a shame..... go see the PAKISTANI FLAG THT WAS HOISTED IN SRI NAGAR.



First you called me boy, nw you are calling me Maamu, you are so confused, tch tch tch.
 
Anyways, last time I checked, Srinagar is still a part of India, and that flag is now lying somewhere on road and students are walking over it on their way to schools.

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## karan.1970

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Mamoo.. then dont cry.... (Even then they nobdy accepts it a integral part of india wat a shame..... go see the PAKISTANI FLAG THT WAS HOISTED IN SRI NAGAR.



There was a scene in one of the old movies I saw in which one of hte characters says..

Jhanda chahe jiska bhi ho, Danda to Hindustani hai na...

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## footmarks

karan.1970 said:


> There was a scene in one of the old movies I saw in which one of hte characters says..
> 
> Jhanda chahe jiska bhi ho, Danda to Hindustani hai na...





What a fitting reply


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## DESERT FIGHTER

karan.1970 said:


> There was a scene in one of the old movies I saw in which one of hte characters says..
> 
> Jhanda chahe jiska bhi ho, Danda to Hindustani hai na...



Dont worry this the DANDA was PAKISTANI thts why delhi is crying... of severe PAIN.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

footmarks said:


> First you called me boy, nw you are calling me Maamu, you are so confused, tch tch tch.
> 
> Anyways, last time I checked, Srinagar is still a part of India, *and that flag is now lying somewhere on road and students are walking over it on their way to schools*.



Arent u a boy? ur posts make us wonder if ur 13 year old.

Srinagar is a part of IOK.... with a Pakistani Jhanda and a BIG PAKISTANI DANDA flyin and giving really bad Pain to Delhi and india in general... tht Flag is still in Kashmir while indian flag is being burnt and walked upon... want proof?


Cying,lies and rants is ur specialisty so enjoy... ur wet dreams.


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> There was a scene in one of the old movies I saw in which one of hte characters says..
> 
> Jhanda chahe jiska bhi ho, Danda to Hindustani hai na...



How did you know that danda was hindustani. Did you gone through the necessary test required to know about danda.  

You can't claim that danda is hindustani by just watching it.


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## footmarks

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Dont worry this the DANDA was PAKISTANI thts why delhi is crying... of severe PAIN.



Khisiyaani billi, khamba noche


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## DESERT FIGHTER

footmarks said:


> Khisiyaani billi, khamba noche



Looks the the PAKISTANI JHANDA AND ITS DANDA is having quiet a toll on u.


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## ice_man

karan.1970 said:


> There was a scene in one of the old movies I saw in which one of hte characters says..
> 
> Jhanda chahe jiska bhi ho, Danda to Hindustani hai na...



 please tell me its a sunny deol dialogue!! 

but anyways OIC is a shame & it is a sham of an organization!! good for nothing! so no point listening to anything it says!


^^ and boys the danda talk isn't quiet mature & upto par with the forum! let's not go slugging it out shall we!


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## footmarks

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Looks the the PAKISTANI JHANDA AND ITS DANDA is having quiet a toll on u.



Srinagar is STILL WITH INDIA. end of story.


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> How did you know that danda was hindustani. Did you gone through the necessary test required to know about danda.
> 
> You can't claim that danda is hindustani by just watching it.



Yaar, maine to movie ka dialog bataaya tha.. 

On the other hand, its still the flag of India on the roof of the J&K legislative assembly and high court. Beyond that everything else is simply a piece of cloth.


----------



## karan.1970

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Dont worry this the DANDA was PAKISTANI thts why delhi is crying... of severe PAIN.



And thats why its Pakistan *pleading *all over the place

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/73555-pakistan-pleads-us-intervention-kashmir.html


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> Yaar, maine to movie ka dialog bataaya tha..
> 
> On the other hand, its still the flag of India on the roof of the J&K legislative assembly and high court. Beyond that everything else is simply a piece of cloth.



Oh I thought you were sharing some experiences with us. 

As far IOK so called Assembly is concern neither the assembly has any worth nor the flag hoisted on the top of it's building. Their is nothing to be proud about that, for people of IOK it is a matter of shame.


----------



## abdul majeed yousafzai

our pakistani militry are very brave

i like them 

because they safe our country
they have rules regulation

i slute our soliders.....


----------



## footmarks

Areesh said:


> Oh I thought you were sharing some experiences with us.
> 
> As far IOK so called Assembly is concern neither the assembly has any worth nor the flag hoisted on the top of it's building. Their is nothing to be proud about that, for people of IOK it is a matter of shame.



Of course, only the Jhanda hoisted over "GHANTA"ghar matters.


----------



## Areesh

footmarks said:


> Of course, only the Jhanda hoisted over "GHANTA"ghar matters.



No danda also matters and you Bharatis are very good realizing the danda's nationality. 

May be some tests you go through everyday.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

karan.1970 said:


> And thats why its Pakistan *pleading *all over the place
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/73555-pakistan-pleads-us-intervention-kashmir.html



Pakista reminds the world iwhile india cries coz of the BIG PAKISTANI JHANDA AND DANDI HOISTED IN SRI NAGAR.


----------



## SpArK

*India approves 100 cr for JK schools, colleges*








New Delhi, Sep 29: Centre has approved Rs 100 crore to Jammu Kashmir government for immediate improvement of educational institutions, including class rooms, auditorium, library, playgrounds and toilet complex.

Buzz up!
"The concerned authorities have been instructed to release funds immediately to the state government who are expected to release the same to the implementing agencies without any delay," a Home Ministry spokesperson said.


The Centre has also advised the Jammu Kashmir government to appoint a committee to identify the families to whom ex-gratia relief is to be given for the deaths in civil disturbances since Jun 11.

The Centre in its package had announced grant of ex-gratia relief of Rs 5 lakh to the families of each of the deceased. 

Centre Approves 100 Cr | Jammu Kashmir Government | Schools-Colleges Improvement - Oneindia News

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## DESERT FIGHTER

footmarks said:


> Of course, only the Jhanda hoisted over "GHANTA"ghar matters.



It would be very hard and painful trying to get the PAKISTANI JHANDA WITH ITS DANDA FLYING HIGH ON A TOWER CLOCK WITH PRIDE..


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## footmarks

Areesh said:


> No danda also matters and you Bharatis are very good realizing the danda's nationality.
> 
> May be some tests you go through everyday.



There is a simple test to confirm whose danda was, and is still, there

"Jiski Laathi uski Bhais"

Since, srinagar is with us, its our danda. End of discussion from my side on nationality of danda. you are free to carry on...


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## Areesh

footmarks said:


> There is a simple test to confirm whose danda was, and is still, there
> 
> "Jiski Laathi uski Bhais"
> 
> Since, srinagar is with us, its our danda. End of discussion from my side on nationality of danda. you are free to carry on...



No their is another test and you Bharatis are well acquainted with it. 

The test you mention is very fail and flawed.


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## footmarks

Areesh said:


> No their is *another test* and you Bharatis are well acquainted with it.
> 
> The test you mention is very fail and flawed.



What are you afraid of han?? mention it, if you dare.


----------



## Areesh

footmarks said:


> What are you afraid of han?? mention it, if you dare.



Come on you guys know it well.


----------



## footmarks

Areesh said:


> Come on you guys know it well.



No I dont. Please enlighten me. I am waiting for your answer.


----------



## Areesh

footmarks said:


> No I dont. Please enlighten me. I am waiting for your answer.



You aren't a true Bharati than. Go and become a complete Bharati. 

Till than you can do your research for Danda nationality check.


----------



## EjazR

*DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Thousands rally in Pakistan-administered Kashmir*

MUZAFFARABAD: Thousands of people rallied in Pakistan-administered Kashmir on Wednesday at the behest of a new movement campaigning for independence for the mountain region and condemning Indian &#8220;brutalities&#8221;.

It was the first rally organised by Tehreek-e-Azadi-e-Kashmir (TAK), which means movement for independence of Kashmir, and was attended by activists from groups including Hizb-ul-Mujahidin and Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD).

The new coalition has been organising two days of rallies in the part of Kashmir administered by Pakistan and plans to hold a rally in Pakistani capital Islamabad later Wednesday.

A crowd of around 2,500 people shouted &#8220;Al-Jihad&#8221;, &#8220;Allahu Akbar&#8221; (God is greater) and &#8220;We want Freedom&#8221; as they arrived in Muzaffarabad, the capital of Pakistan-administered Kashmir on Wednesday, said an AFP reporter.

Indian-administered Kashmir has been hit by a surge in protests since June 11, when a 17-year old student was killed by a police teargas shell.

Since then Indian security forces have been accused of killing a total of 107 people, mostly teenagers and students.

&#8220;The ongoing freedom movement will transcend beyond the boundaries of Kashmir if the international community fails to take notice of Indian brutalities against this peaceful struggle,&#8221; JuD leader Abdur Rehman Makki said.

He criticised both Islamabad and New Delhi over stalled efforts to resolve the fate of Kashmir.

&#8220;There should be only one-point agenda of any talks between the two countries... The Kashmir issue.&#8221;

TAK spokesman Shafqat Hussain told AFP that the new movement wanted to provide a platform to all political and religious parties campaigning for freedom in Kashmir, but stressed it would remain an unarmed organisation.

JuD is blacklisted as a terror group by the United Nations and considered a front for the armed Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) group that Washington and New Delhi blamed for the 2008 attacks on Mumbai. &#8211; AFP


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## footmarks

Areesh said:


> You aren't a true Bharati than. Go and become a complete Bharati.
> 
> Till than you can do your research for Danda nationality check.



Why dont you accept that you lack guts. Are you a true pakistani ??


----------



## Ammyy

Not a single post from any ().. 

Good to see how much people care about J&K people 

@ Mod thats not troll..... You know i am not wrong


----------



## Frankenstein

hecj said:


> i think oic have given lollipop to pakistan,india ned not to worried abt it.



who even cares if you are worried about that or not, they have urge Indian government not its people, grow up and then rejoin pdf


----------



## Ammyy

kingdurgaking said:


> Good to see them back in business... Geelani where will he *hide the shame*??



If he feel shame so never say that dnt attend the schools 
On the other hand how many of his family members are not going to schools ???


----------



## Frankenstein

Kinetic said:


> lol OIC talking about rights!!!! I thought they have a different definition of 'people's rights'!



I dont know what you mean by that, but your definition of human rights surely means, raping , harassment, killing, torturing, looting if it isnt then Kashmir wud be a better place to live, not Indian Army patrolling like hell hounds


----------



## Frankenstein

footmarks said:


> Why dont you accept that you lack guts. Are you a true p.a.k.i. ??



you might not wana use that language again endian


----------



## TATA

If local Kashmir police (consists of local Kashmiri Muslim) hurt a person or a kid separatist will protest and make hue and cry.

But these same separatist targets kashmiri Muslims kids who are going school by stone pelting.

So govt. have to deal with them so that kashmiri children can study peacefully otherwise no use of more and more school.


----------



## aristocrat

well thats a good development.but wat about creating job opputunities inside j&k??


----------



## SpArK

aristocrat said:


> well thats a good development.but wat about creating job opputunities inside j&k??




PM reviews Kashmir job plan progress - The Times of India

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## KS

First OIC should ask the Sudanese President (a member of OIC) to stop the genocide going on in Darfur ,then ask the terrorist Islamic Courts Union to stop the terrorism in Somalia, then ask the Gulf countries to provide a semblance of "Human rights" to their citizens who are nothing but glorified slaves of their monarchs,then ask the Turks to stop butchering the Kurds and then if everything is solved come to lecture India on Kashmir.

*ps:*Jhanda chahe jiska bhi ho...Danda to Hindustani hai na - what does this mean.?


----------



## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Oh I thought you were sharing some experiences with us.



Yes.. Of Hindustani danda and Another country's Jhanda


----------



## karan.1970

footmarks said:


> Why dont you accept that you lack guts. Are you a true ****** ??



Dont use this word friend.. Lets not get into racial slurs...


----------



## karan.1970

Karthic Sri said:


> *ps:*Jhanda chahe jiska bhi ho...Danda to Hindustani hai na - what does this mean.?



Danda means the pole.. So literally it means that 

No matter what flag is being hoisted, its the Indian pole that is hoisting that flag...

Figuratively, you can take it in any direction..


----------



## ek_indian

OIC urges India to stop rights violations in JnK 

After some days...

there is a meeting between Kuwait and India to talk about business and enhancing ties.

Meanwhile KSA is advocating for increased partnership between India and KSA.

The world is moving really fast.


----------



## footmarks

karan.1970 said:


> Dont use this word friend.. Lets not get into racial slurs...



That was not racist. I dont know, I wrote it as a short form for Pakistani. if it is termed as racist, I extend my sincere apologies to all Pakistanis. No matter how much irritated I get here, I am not a racist.

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## civfanatic

kingdurgaking said:


> I dont think the government started the protest.. instead the hurriyat group started the protest.... if they want to protest they could have protested in peaceful way like hunger strike, human chain etc etc.. which will bring the world's attention ... what is this childish way of protesting by throwing stones??? see the maturity of the protester here?? did we get independence by throwing stone on Britishers??



Protests have been largely peaceful but when an imperial power sedated by the power it has uses live amunation on peaceful protestors, putting thousands of students behind bars for protesting . people do react.If you understand urdu ....Here is couplet for you.
*Yeh tareekh ka kanoon hai , Yeh haq ki riwayat hai ..
Zubanain rok di jayain to khanjar baat kartay hain ..* 
" It is the law of history and tradition of truth ..
that when tounges are tied swords do the talking .."


----------



## Qasim_Yousuf

Great news....why deprive students the right to education


----------



## Von Hölle

civfanatic said:


> Protests have been largely peaceful but when an imperial power sedated by the power it has uses live amunation on peaceful protestors, putting thousands of students behind bars for protesting . people do react.If you understand urdu ....Here is couplet for you.
> *Yeh tareekh ka kanoon hai , Yeh haq ki riwayat hai ..
> Zubanain rok di jayain to khanjar baat kartay hain ..*
> " It is the law of history and tradition of truth ..
> that when tounges are tied swords do the talking .."



Does peace-full protest also include pelting stones and lighting buildings and vehicles on fire ?


----------



## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> Yes.. Of Hindustani danda and Another country's Jhanda



So you also need a cloth along with danda in your test. OK I got it.  



footmarks said:


> Why dont you accept that you lack guts. Are you a true pakistani ??



And aren't you a true bharati that doesn't knows the uses of danda.


----------



## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> So you also need a cloth along with danda in your test. OK I got it.
> 
> 
> 
> And aren't you a true bharati that doesn't knows the uses of danda.



Liked your signature. As they say, immitation is the best form of flattery..


----------



## footmarks

Areesh said:


> And aren't you a true bharati that doesn't knows the uses of danda.



I know how to use it, and YOU are the proof


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

karan.1970 said:


> Yes.. Of Hindustani danda and Another country's Jhanda



Ur talkin abt danda since moring and getting embarassed !! so when will u stop after someone (pakistani) shows u the danda and jhanda ?

...... Pakistani JHANDA AND DANDA is giving alot of PAIN,FRUSTRATION etc to India .


----------



## Areesh

footmarks said:


> I know how to use it, and YOU are the proof




You forget the Bharati tradition dear. Danda tests are actually self applied. 

By the way I am the proof because I know you don't know anything about the use of danda by Bharatis. I am the witness to all this.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Areesh said:


> You forget the Bharati tradition dear. Danda tests are actually self applied.
> 
> By the way I am the proof because I know you don't know anything about the use of danda by Bharatis. I am the witness to all this.



Foot mark ur an embarassment to me.


----------



## footmarks

Areesh said:


> You forget the Bharati tradition dear. Danda tests are actually self applied.



You know a lot about bharati tradition, understandably, as your forefathers were bharatis too.



Areesh said:


> By the way I am the proof because I know you don't know anything about the use of danda by Bharatis. I am the witness to all this.



Couldn't come up with anything better, hmmm, poor you

As I said, as long as you are here, I dont need any other proof. You are the proof.


----------



## footmarks

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Actually he helps other people with hoisting there dandas.... didnt he help u... hoist ur danda under the dark night and chanda(moon)



 Now, these creatures can "HOIST" their dandas


----------



## Areesh

footmarks said:


> You know a lot about bharati tradition, understandably, as your forefathers were bharatis too.


 And Bharatis were from mars. Lolzzz What a pathetic argument you guys have yaar. Obviously when Muslims ruled your country we had to live with your four fathers. You don't have a strong point dear.



> Couldn't come up with anything better, hmmm, poor you
> 
> As I said, as long as you are here, I dont need any other proof. You are the proof.



Hehehe enough spanking or you want more.


----------



## gutsyvishal

Areesh said:


> You forget the Bharati tradition dear. Danda tests are actually self applied.
> 
> By the way I am the proof because I know you don't know anything about the use of danda by Bharatis. *I am the witness to all this*.



yes we all know ure a mixed breed. 
what r u making so much noise about ?


----------



## footmarks

self delete


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## DESERT FIGHTER

footmak = Jotay ka nishan.... tht defines u perfectly... ur constantly abusing and using racist slurs... didnt ur mother teach u anything good?manner?.... looks like she wasnt home to teach u such good values.... i wonder where the Mods are...@butsy vishal.... dont define ur ancestory here.


----------



## gutsyvishal

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> footmak = Jotay ka nishan.... tht defines u perfectly... ur constantly abusing and using racist slurs... didnt ur mother teach u anything good?manner?.... looks like she wasnt home to teach u such good values.... i wonder where the Mods are...*@butsy vishal.... dont define ur ancestory here.*



we bot share same ancestory.
only difference being ure ancestors were raped and forced to change, so a mixed breed came out.


----------



## footmarks

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> footmak = Jotay ka nishan.... tht defines u perfectly... ur constantly abusing and using racist slurs... didnt ur mother teach u anything good?manner?.... looks like she wasnt home to teach u such good values.... i wonder where the Mods are...@butsy vishal.... dont define ur ancestory here.



Footmarks = Pairo ke nishan, moron.

When I started giving you back what you were sh!tt!ng, you are calling me racist. go through all the posts and discover yourself who started this "D!ck" game. it was Hareesh.

And going by the post you have just taken out of your behind, you should learn the meaning of good manners first.


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## gutsyvishal

hey footmarks... i like ure signature dude... its so true.


----------



## Mirza Jatt

> OIC urges India to stop rights violations in kashmir...



Ok, heard that.....now move on......


----------



## kak1978

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Mamoo.. then dont cry.... (Even then they nobdy accepts it a integral part of india wat a shame..... go see the PAKISTANI FLAG THT WAS HOISTED IN SRI NAGAR.






footmarks said:


> First you called me boy, nw you are calling me Maamu, you are so confused, tch tch tch.
> 
> Anyways, last time I checked, Srinagar is still a part of India, and that flag is now lying somewhere on road and students are walking over it on their way to schools.









Flag gone.

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## kak1978

somebozo said:


> IOK saga, CWG pressure and Ayodha verdict...when sh1t happens..its always a lot of it..!



Looks like you and the people who thanked you are praying/expecting for something bad to happen in either of these three cases. Well, let me also pray, for J&K to get back to normal soon, CWG to be a successful event and Sense prevail on the party which will have the Ayodhya verdict against it keeping in mind that they can appeal in the Supreme court.


----------



## dabong1

kingdurgaking said:


> No it wont fit for Indian leaders... because they are not like Geelani who eats others life for there welfare... Indian leaders eat only others money not others life...



So the indian leaders sending other peoples children to fight and get killed in kashmir is not "eating others lifes"?
The kashmiris did not invade india it was india that invaded kasgmir.



kingdurgaking said:


> You can tell what Kashmirs want i cant tell want India wants and nothing is going to change.. JK is an Indian territory and kids like Geelani can only dream...



You thinking geelani is a kid just show how detached to you are from the entire kashmir freedom fight.



kingdurgaking said:


> And killing people is not new for Pakistan army buddy... they are part of a big conspiracy already



Nearly 99% of all killings ,rapes,destruction,mass demonstrations,international media coverage is focused on IOK.........Ooh no its the ISI...pak army....freedom fighters....anybody but the indians fault.


----------



## dabong1

Undivided Kashmir said:


> what more can be expected from this pak puppet but to serve his masters. He should be kicked out of India.



His not india......his in kashmir

The same thing can be said about all the traitors that support india......KICK UM OUT OF KASHMIR.


----------



## WHF

Fasih Khan said:


> India would not listen to the arguments at all. Useless to waste time on it. *Pakistan government and the OIC Should think of a better treatment*.



Better treatment??what do u mean??

as far as im concerned if IOC and pakistan would ask me,what better treament u Indian need??
i would say *"Tail maalish kar do yaar"*


----------



## WHF

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Arent u a boy? ur posts make us wonder if ur 13 year old.
> 
> Srinagar is a part of IOK.... with a Pakistani Jhanda and a BIG PAKISTANI DANDA flyin and giving really bad Pain to Delhi and india in general... tht Flag is still in Kashmir while indian flag is being burnt and walked upon... want proof?
> 
> 
> Cying,lies and rants is ur specialisty so enjoy... ur wet dreams.



accha chalo maan 1 min key liye maan lete hein aap ki baat ko.

phir mujhey aur haansi aathi hein..jahnda aapka log aapkey par ya allah military hamaari police hamaari zameen hamaari,bus aapkey aur apkey logo key liye aansoo reh gaye


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## Omar1984

Good job FM Qureshi. India's Krishna could not repond to your statements about human rights abuses committed by indian armed forces in India Occupied Kashmir.


----------



## karan.1970

Omar1984 said:


> Good job FM Qureshi. India's Krishna could not repond to your statements about human rights abuses committed by indian armed forces in India Occupied Kashmir.



I think he responded very well. 

He told the Pakistani FM that its none of his business and told him to go and manage his own country and live up to Pakistani committment to prevent terrorists from using Pakistani soil as safe havens..

There was no need to lend any legitimacy to the specifics of Quereshi's speech by responding to them. 

What Quereshi said got treated as what it was.. 

Well, at least no one walked out...


----------



## Omar1984

karan.1970 said:


> I think he responded very well.
> 
> He told the Pakistani FM that its none of his business and told him to go and manage his own country and live up to Pakistani committment to prevent terrorists from using Pakistani soil as safe havens..
> 
> There was no need to lend any legitimacy to the specifics of Quereshi's speech by responding to them.
> 
> What Quereshi said got treated as what it was..
> 
> Well, at least no one walked out...



*KASHMIR WILL ALWAYS BE PAKISTAN'S BUSINESS!!!!*

Pakistanis will always side with the Kashmiri people and will always speak out when violations of human rights are committed in India Occupied Kashmir (IOK) on the Kashmiri people.

Kashmir is a DISPUTED teritory between Pakistan and india, and what happens in Kashmir is our business.

Pakistanis can not just watch unarmed Kashmiris get killed by indian armed forces and keep silent. You indians dont care that innocent Kashmiris are being killed, but Pakistanis care.

Krishna did not repsond to FM Qureshi's statements which were focused on Kashmiri repression in IOK.


----------



## karan.1970

Omar1984 said:


> *KASHMIR WILL ALWAYS BE PAKISTAN'S BUSINESS!!!!*
> 
> Pakistanis will always side with the Kashmiri people and will always speak out when violations of human rights are committed in India Occupied Kashmir (IOK) on the Kashmiri people.
> 
> Kashmir is a DISPUTED teritory between Pakistan and india, and what happens in Kashmir is our business.
> 
> Pakistanis can not just watch unarmed Kashmiris get killed by indian armed forces and keep silent. You indians dont care that innocent Kashmiris are being killed, but Pakistanis care.
> 
> Krishna did not repsond to FM Qureshi's statements which were focused on Kashmiri repression in IOK.



Since you are repeating your posts in 2 threads, I am just pasting a link to my response in the other thread

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...r-own-survival-krishna-pak-8.html#post1168646


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## Urbanized Greyhound

Omar1984 said:


> *KASHMIR WILL ALWAYS BE PAKISTAN'S BUSINESS!!!!*
> 
> Pakistanis will always side with the Kashmiri people and will always speak out when violations of human rights are committed in India Occupied Kashmir (IOK) on the Kashmiri people.
> 
> Kashmir is a DISPUTED teritory between Pakistan and india, and what happens in Kashmir is our business.
> 
> *Pakistanis can not just watch unarmed Kashmiris get killed by indian armed forces and keep silent. You indians dont care that innocent Kashmiris are being killed, but Pakistanis care.*
> 
> Krishna did not repsond to FM Qureshi's statements which were focused on Kashmiri repression in IOK.



Kashmir will always remain India's internal matter just like when we hear reports about Ahmediyas facing discrimination in Pakistan or unrest in Baluchistan .....there is nothing any other country can officially do......

as far as the bold part is concerned we did not begin this cycle of intense violence .....this cant be a coincidence that the failure of economic policies and the advent of major crises like Floods and WOT in Pakistan coincided with a renewed spurt in instigations of stone pelting that too by a very selected group of individuals(Geelani of all people)......

and you are utterly wrong in thinking "we do not care".....all mainstream media sources have been vocal in condemning the violence .....even the Army is not involved but the J& K police force....a strict display of restraint implemented immediately by Omar Abdullah and MMS even under the most extenuating circumstances .....whether you accept it or not.... such high levels of accountability of official action can only exist in India.....examples your own War on Terror where so many civilians were butchered....any action against officers guity of excesses ?.....

besides given the lack of development in so called AJK.....all your claims of "Caring for kashmiris " fall flat ......

why not set an example by removing your troops from AJK and giving it genuine independence.....or is it a merger with Pakistan which would actually serve vested interests rather than kashmiri ones that you are looking for ?


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## Omar1984

Student loses eye to CRPF sling-shot



Srinagar, Sept 29: The fears that government was risking the lives of students by decreeing them to attend schools amidst curfew and protests came true on Wednesday when a schoolboy lost his eye after being hit by a marble shot at him through sling shot allegedly by paramilitary CRPF troopers.

A 9th class student of Extol Bhawan School Awantibavan, Soura, Aabid Mushtaq, minutes after being brought out of Operation Theatre at SMHS Hospital here, while revealing his agony to Greater Kashmir said: *&#8220;I came out on road to see whether my school bus has reached the pickup place. Two CRPF men caught hold of me and another one shot a marble in my left eye with a sling shot from close range. They also thrashed me with canes.&#8221;

Aabid said he showed his identity card also but the troopers didn&#8217;t honour it. &#8220;CRPF men told me that Kashmiri students need not attend schools,&#8221; he said. &#8220;You are following Geelani&#8217;s calendar. When you didn&#8217;t go to school for past two days, what is the need to go today,&#8221; he quoted the troopers as saying. &#8220;Follow Geelani&#8217;s calendar,&#8221; the boy was told while being thrashed.*

Aabid&#8217;s father, Mushtaq Ahmad Bhat, a businessman, said since there was no curfew or protests in the area he allowed his son to attend the school. &#8220;My son was profusely bleeding in the eye. His shirt was fully stained with blood when we took him to hospital,&#8221; he said.

Muzaffar Ahmad, an eyewitness, said CRPF men ruthlessly beat up Aabid. &#8220;They later held him and one of them hit him with the marble,&#8221; he said. *&#8220;Kashmiri people are not safe in their own land. Forces are here to kill the people, not to provide security,&#8221; he lamented.*

Aabid was rushed to SKIMS from where doctors referred him to SMHS Hospital.
A senior doctor who operated upon Aabid told this reporter that Aabid&#8217;s eye has been badly damaged with injury in eyeball. &#8220;He can&#8217;t see with that eye. We can only try to repair the eye to avoid deformity in the face,&#8221; the doctor said.
The doctor said that Aabid has been shot from very close range. &#8220;It is unbearable. Small kids are becoming visually handicapped in force&#8217;s action,&#8221; he said.

The family members said they requested the SHO Soura to register an FIR. But police denied, saying let the patient recuperate from the injury then only they could register a case.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

If i were the kid, you can damn imagine I will pick up an assault rifle, a revolver, a broken branch, an iron rod -- whatever


they took his eye, took his honour and dignity.....if I were him, I would fight.

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## Omar1984

'Azadi for us means an end to repressive military rule in Valley' - The Times of India


NEW DELHI: A cross section of Delhi's civil society and women activists listened in stunned silence as Parweena Ahangar, a middle-aged Kashmiri woman, narrated the torment of a mother whose son "disappeared" 20 years ago. It's believed that he was killed by security forces. Parweena mentioned her son only once. After that she wept for dozens of others, naming them and describing the circumstances of their disappearance. Parweena is in Delhi with a group of Kashmiri women to narrate the horrors of a society at war, and to make another attempt to seek justice. It's a diverse group including university and school teachers, a hospital worker, a journalist and some housewives. They have been invited here by Women's Initiative for Peace in South Asia (WISPA). 


Hameedah Nayeem, a professor at Srinagar University, in a counterpoint to Parweena's choking grief, provides the context in staccato objectivity. *She says that the current protests that started four months ago are peaceful. ''Protesters throw stones only after police firing or if a woman's modesty is attacked, like security men forcibly snatching away the head-dress, as often happens,'' she says. *

Explaining what ''azadi'' &#8212; a slogan voiced routinely in the Valley &#8212; means, Nayeem says it means getting rid of the armed forces and their repression, and also, the establishment of democracy. 

*''In Delhi, you can't understand what it means to live with the military for 20 years. They have taken over all the public space &#8212; schools, roads, hospitals, cinemas, everything. They can hold up anyone, enter anyone's house do anything that they feel like,'' she says. According to Nayeem, the military has taken over one million ''kanals'' of land legally and another 2 million illegally in the Valley. ''This has destroyed the normal vocations of thousands of people,'' she says.* 


*The women from Kashmir silently weep as Parweena recounts the chilling story of 8-year old Samir Khan who was going to his uncle's house one afternoon and disappeared. His mutilated body was found the next day in the river. Investigations showed that his frail body had been crushed by boots and a metal rod inserted into his mouth. ''Why is the government honouring policemen who are responsible for killing thousands in Kashmir?'' she asks.*


Parweena formed the Association of Parents of Disappeared Persons (APDP) to fight for investigation of all cases of what she calls ''enforced disappearance''. According to her, over 8,000 cases of such disappearance are recorded. In many cases investigations have been done and guilty persons from security forces identified. ''But, we have to run from pillar to post trying to get somebody to hear our sorrow,'' she says. The delegation presented a set of demands to home secretary G K Pillai, which included getting women involved in the peace process, demilitarization, withdrawal of AFSPA and PSA, release of imprisoned youth, prosecution of errant security personnel etc.


Whether it is the agony of Parweena Ahangar or the cold objectivity of Hameedah Nayeem, the message from the women of Kashmir is loud and clear &#8212; they will continue the struggle for justice and peace, and for end of what they call military rule in Kashmir. ''It's an oath we have taken in the name of Allah. We will not give up,'' says Parweena softly.


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## EjazR



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## NWO

When you begin using guns to oppress the people, except the people to respond with guns.

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## Hulk

NWO said:


> When you begin using guns to oppress the people, except the people to respond with guns.



it is the other way round, before 1989 there was no violence in Kashmir, It started with militancy.

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## StingRoy

Even the whole Kashmir issue started with Pakistan invading into Kashmir... If it were not for that single folly... history would have been different. It has always started from the Pakistani side and India has always finished it.


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## Omar1984

BENNY said:


> *The JKLF has often accused pro-Pakistan groups of turning a legitimate nationalist struggle of the Kashmiri people into an Islamic terrorist movement, thereby undermining the movement's credibility.*
> 
> *A JKLF statement says that the JD campaign "will sabotage the Kashmiris' spontaneous movement once again, and provide propaganda material to the Indian government to defame and suppress the Kashmiri people's movement for national liberation".*



I'm sorry to disappoint you but indians will never support the nationalist freedom struggle of the Kashmiri people.

Over 100 unarmed Kashmiri protesters have been killed by indian armed forces in just 3 months. No indian has criticised the indian armed forces, no indian is demanding justice for the 109 Kashmiris killed in these past 3 months. indians have black hearts especially when it concerns Kashmiri Muslims.


Its Pakistan that went to the UN and addressed the repression of Kashmiris in IOK so the international community knows whats happening in Kashmir. Its Pakistan that went to the OIC and talked about human right violations in IOK so other Islamic countries know whats happening in Kashmir. Its in Pakistan where thousands of Pakistani citizens are protesting against indian brutalities in IOK.

Are any indian leaders talking about the violations of human rights in Kashmir? Are any indians protesting against indian brutalities in IOK in delhi or mumbai?


The Kashmiri freedom struggle lacks proper leadership. You have Hurriyat, JKLF, and numerous other parties in IOK. Both Hurriyat and JKLF demand freedom but they both criticize the other and are not united. Pakistan won its freedom struggle because we had the Muslim League, lead by Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah. Millions of Pakistanis supported the freedom struggle lead by Quaid-e-Azam and thats how we won our freedom. India won its freedom struggle because they had the indian congress lead by Gandhi, millions of indians supported the freedom struggle lead by Gandhi and thats how they won their freedom. The Kashmiri freedom struggle needs millions of Kashmiris to unite and support one party and one leader, who has what it takes to win freedom for the Kashmiri people.


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## Omar1984

dezi said:


> Even the whole Kashmir issue started with Pakistan invading into Kashmir... If it were not for that single folly... history would have been different. It has always started from the Pakistani side and India has always finished it.



Pakhtuns from tribal areas of Pakistan went to free Kashmir after they heard dead bodies of Muslims were coming into Pakistan during partition and yes the rest of Pakistan supported the Pakhtuns because we were not going to have a tyrant hindu ruler determine the fate of a Muslim majority state that is connected to Pakistan.


We Pakistanis always wanted the Kashmiri people to determine their own fate, thats why to this day Pakistan supports a referendum for the Kashmiri people.

And I should remind you that its not in Azad Kashmir but its in India Occupied Kashmir (IOK) where over 100 unarmed Kashmiri protesters have been killed by indian armed forces in just 3 months.


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## EjazR

^^^And those same tribals killed and raped muslims and non-muslims of the Kashmir valley as well as indulged in looting of property. One of the reasons why the local Kashmris fought alongside with the Indian army to drive back the tirbals.

*DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Many join Dawa proxy in Kashmir cause*

*ISLAMABAD: After a long time, a pro-Jihad rally was held in the federal capital which was participated by the top leadership of rightist parties along with a representation from the Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N) on Wednesday.*

Tehrik Azadi-i-Kashmir (TAK), an organisation launched by Jamaatud Dawa Pakistan, organised the gathering titled: &#8216;National Kashmir Conference&#8217; at Aabpara after culmination of a three-day Azadi-i-Kashmir Karvan&#8217; that started from Mirpur in Azad Kashmir and after passing through Kotli, Bagh and Muzafarabad culminated here.

Speaking on the occasion, Tehrik chairman Hafiz Saifullah Mansoor drew the attention of the world towards the situation in Kashmir and said there had to be a reason why the general public had taken to the streets in Kashmir.

&#8220;How can we turn a blind eye to such a situation where innocent people are bleeding at the hands of

strong and well-equipped forces?&#8221;

The rally was held to mobilise the masses and create awareness about the atrocities being faced by the Kashmiris.

Apart from PML-N spokesman Siddiqul Farooque, most of the occupants of the stage belonged to religious rightist groups including Jamaat-i-Islami chief Syed Munawar Hasan, Maulana Samiul Haq, the chief of his own faction of Jamiat Ulema-i-Islam, and representatives of All Parties Huryyiet Conference (APHC).

Amid high pitched pro-Jehad slogans, leader of Tehrik-i-Azadi, J&K chapter, Abdur Rehman Makki warned India to respect the rights of Kashmiris.

&#8220;If they did not resolve the Kashmir issue peacefully, we are left with no other option but to take the course of Jehad,&#8221; he said.

The speakers also took oath from the participants of the gathering to rise for the solidarity with the people of Kashmir.

While Maulana Samiul Haq called for Jehad saying it was the only way to resolve the Kashmir issue, saner speeches were delivered by the Jamaat-i-Islami and PML-N leaders.

Talking to Dawn, Siddiqul Farooq said his participation was not to strengthen the idea of Jehad for resolution of Kashmir issue.

&#8220;PML-N believes in peaceful struggle for the resolution of Kashmir issue and we were here to express solidarity with the rightful struggle of Kashmiris.&#8221;

The JI leader, however, criticised the government and accused the country&#8217;s leadership of speaking in the tone of Indian government.

The conference adopted resolutions demanding the government of Pakistan to call an all parties conference for devising a national policy that could play a role in ending atrocities in Kashmir.

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## Omar1984

EjazR said:


> ^^^And those same tribals killed and raped muslims and non-muslims of the Kashmir valley as well as indulged in looting of property. One of the reasons why the local Kashmris fought alongside with the Indian army to drive back the tirbals.



Any proof of that or are you again making nonsense statements based on your bharati pride.


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## EjazR

Here is a pro-Indepedance Kashmiri leder who is original from PAkistani side of Kashmir with refrences at the end. 

*Dr Shabir Choudhry's blog: Tribal invasion and its implications*


*Tribal invasion and its implications
Presentation of Dr Shabir Choudhry on Black Day conference organised by Kashmir National Party in Watford, England.*

Mr Chairman, friends and colleagues aslamo alaykam

1. Introduction

Tribal invasion was a major event in the modern history of Jammu and Kashmir. This tragic event changed the course of our history.
&#8226; It changed our destination.
&#8226; It changed secular ethos of Kashmir.
&#8226; It undermined our sovereignty.
&#8226; It deprived us of our independence.
&#8226; It divided our beloved motherland.
&#8226; It divided families and the nation.
&#8226; It killed innocent Kashmiri men and women.
&#8226; It dishonoured Kashmiri women.
&#8226; It plundered and looted Kashmiri resources.
&#8226; It is the main cause of our present miseries and troubles.
&#8226; In one sentence, it is the cause of all of our problems we face today.

We need to investigate and analyse what was this tribal invasion? How did it happen? Who were behind this and what was the purpose of this? We people of Jammu and Kashmir are repeatedly told that tribesmen from North West Frontier came to Jammu and Kashmir to help us. They came there for Jihad. However historic facts do not support this contention.

These tribesmen were set on us not to help us, but to subdue and invade us. Some of them might have been motivated by holy name of Jihad, but for the majority it was an opportunity to satisfy their hunger for loot and plunder, and take away Kashmiri women. Religion of victims was not an issue to them; and their victims included Muslims and non Muslims.

In name of &#8216;Jihad&#8217; when these unruly tribesmen entered territory of Jammu and Kashmir, their first victim was a Muslim. When the tribesmen attacked house of a non Muslim citizen of Muzaffarabad, Master Abdul Aziz in line with his Islamic duty and Kashmiri ethos, tried to protect his neighbour. He asked them not to loot and kill his non Muslim neighbours.

The tribesmen did not like intervention from Master Abdul Aziz, and killed him on spot. To these &#8216;jihadis&#8217; crime of Master Abdul Aziz was so severe that he did not even deserve a funeral (janaza) or a burial. They threw his dead body in River Neelam.
They created mayhem and sent the message to all that if anyone even questions them as to what they were doing, they will eliminate that person. Grandchildren of Master Abdul Aziz, first victim of the tribesmen still live in Muzzafarabad, and explain the tragic events which they heard from their elders.

2. Legal status of Jammu and Kashmir

It is well established fact that the State of Jammu and Kashmir had attained its sovereignty after lapse of the British Paramountcy on 15 August 1947. The Independence Act, Section 7.1 explains that after &#8216;the suzerainty of His Majesty over the Indian States lapses&#8217;; all powers which were responsibility of the Crown were to revert back to the Rulers of the States.
This point was further elaborated by Governor General of India Lord Mountbatten in his address to a Special meeting of the Chamber of Princes on July 25 1947, he said, and I quote:
There had been universal acceptance among the States of the Cabinet Mission's Memorandum of 12 May and when the political parties accepted the Statement of 3 June they fully realised and accepted that withdrawal of Paramountcy would enable the States to regain complete sovereignty&#8230;&#8230;Now, the Indian Independence Act releases the States from all their obligations to the Crown. The States will have complete freedom- technically and legally they become independent. Unquote.
Mohammed Ali Jinnah agreed with the above legal position. He strongly believed that the State of Jammu Kashmir and other Princely States had a right either to accede to India or Pakistan, or become independent States. In a reply to a question on 17th June 1947 about legal status of the Princely States, Mohammed Ali Jinnah said:

&#8216;That after the lapse of paramountcy the Indian States would be constitutionally and legally sovereign states and free to adopt for themselves any course they wished. It is open to States to join Hindustan Constituent Assembly {or Pakistan Constituent Assembly} or to decide to remain independent&#8217;.

Despite all pressures from Lord Mountbatten, different leaders of Congress and Muslim League the Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir did not accede to any country. He wanted to remain independent. He attained his independence after lapse of paramountcy on 15th August 197. As late as on 12 October 1947, the Maharaja wanted to remain independent, and this position was reinforced by his Deputy Prime Minister Ram Lal Batra, who during his visit to Delhi said:

&#8216;We intend to keep on friendly relations with both India and Pakistan. Despite constant rumours we have no intention of joining either India or Pakistan, and the Maharaja and his government have decided that no decision of any kind will be made until there is peace in the plains. He also revealed that the Maharaja had told him that it was his ambition to make Kashmir Switzerland of the East &#8211; a completely neutral state.&#8217; 1

All sovereign states must have four characteristics, and before any state attains sovereignty these attributes must be satisfied:

1/ First attribute is that the state should have people. This attribute Jammu and Kashmir satisfied before the lapse of Paramountcy. The people living within the State boundaries were regarded as citizens of Jammu and Kashmir; and State Subject Definition Notification dated the 20th April, 1927 further strengthens our case in this regard.
2/ Second attribute of a statehood is that the state should have a defined territory. Size of the state does not matter; it could be a city state. The Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir had clearly defined territory of which he was the Ruler.

3/ Third attribute of a statehood is that there should be a government. A government could mean one or more people who are responsible for making laws and keeping law and order. All these attributes were satisfied before the lapse of paramountcy.

4/ Fourth attribute of a statehood is that a state should have capacity and right to enter in to relations with other states. This attribute distinguishes states from lesser units like members of a federation.

The Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir attained this capacity after the lapse of Paramountcy. He demonstrated this ability or right by concluding a Standstill Agreement with government of Pakistan; and by offering to have a Standstill Agreement with government of India.

Some people argue that because the State of Jammu and Kashmir was not recognised, therefore it was not a sovereign state. This is not true. A State becomes sovereign when it is granted independence by a paramount power; legally it attains independence from that moment and does not depend on recognition of other states. Israel exists as a sovereign country, yet it is not recognised by so many countries.

In case of Jammu and Kashmir, India and Pakistan could not have recognised it as a sovereign state as both wanted Kashmir to join one or the other Dominion. Other countries could not recognise the State of Jammu and Kashmir so soon because situation was not clear; and the State of Jammu and Kashmir could not maintain its independence due to the tribal invasion which forced the Maharaja to accede to India, which was provisional and had to be ratified by people of the State.

3. Who planned the tribal invasion?

Mohammed Ali Jinnah and government of Pakistan always took pro Maharaja and anti people position in Jammu and Kashmir, in hope that the Maharaja will join Pakistan. Prime Minister of Jammu and Kashmir RC Kak also gave them similar impression, but on 11 August 1947, he was replaced by General Janak Singh. In second week of September he was replaced by Mehr Chand Mahjan, who incidentally was a member of the Punjab Boundary Commission.

It is claimed by some Pakistani writers that he was assured of the post if he had provided the State a land access to India. Even though the District of Gurdaspur had a Muslim majority, the Radcliff Award divided the district in such a way that India had a land access to Jammu and Kashmir. 2

On 24 August 1947, Mohammed Ali Jinnah sent his Military Secretary, Colonel William Birnie to Kashmir that he can negotiate for him two weeks holiday visit in Kashmir in mid September. He came back after one week and gave Mohammed Ali Jinnah news he did not want to hear. Because of the political turmoil the Maharaja government refused this request. This stunned Mohammed Ali Jinnah and Pakistan government. They realised that all was not well, and things were not evolving the way they envisaged.

After few days the Pakistan government sent a secret agent to Kashmir to ascertain the situation there. His report was not encouraging either. In view of this report Liaquat Ali Khan, Prime Minister of Pakistan convened a secret meeting of top officials in Lahore to &#8216;decide how to force the Maharaja&#8217;s hand&#8217;. Authors of Freedom at Midnight write and I quote:

&#8216;The conspirators dismissed immediately the idea of an outright invasion. The Pakistan army was not ready for an adventure that could lead to war with India&#8230;.Colonel Akbar Khan proposed that Pakistan supply the arms and money to foment uprising of Kashmir&#8217;s dissidents Moslim population. It would require several months, but the end, Khan promised would see forty or fifty thousand Kashmiris descending on Srinagar to force the Maharaja to accede to Pakistan&#8217;. 3
Unquote

The second proposal was presented by Khan Abdul Qayyum Khan, Chief Minister of North West Frontier Province of Pakistan, which involved use of the tribesmen to force the Maharaja to accede to Pakistan. I once again refer to authors of Freedom at Midnight, and I quote:

&#8216;Sending those dangerous hordes to Srinagar had considerable appeal. It would force the swift fall of the Maharaja and the annexation of his state to Pakistan. And by offering the tribesmen the opportunity to loot the bazaars of Kashmir, their covetous eyes could be kept off the bazaars of Peshawear&#8230;..The gathering closed with a stern warning from the Prime Minister. The operation must be a complete secret. Finances would be provided by secret funds from his office. Neither the officers of Pakistan&#8217;s army nor her civil service nor, above all, the British Officers and administrators in the service of the new state were to know.&#8217; 4 Unquote

In line with this secret decision Muslim dissidents were encouraged and fully supported to rise against a &#8216;Hindu Maharaja&#8217;. The Maharaja government had many serious problems to deal with. Future of its State was uncertain. Both India and Pakistan applied tremendous pressure for accession.

Muslims in Poonch had started their armed rebellion at a time when there were communal riots in parts of Jammu, mainly started by non Muslims who uprooted from Pakistan. Situation in Gilgit Baltistan was not satisfactory either, as his newly appointed Governor Gansara Singh was having some difficulty to assert his authority in this region which was only reverted to the Maharaja on 1st of August 1947.

State forces were not capable of dealing with all these problems; and to make things more difficult for him the Pakistani government in clear violation of the Standstill Agreement stopped essential supplies to Jammu and Kashmir. The Maharaja government complained to the government of Pakistan, and requested to lift the economic blockade. Pakistani government was in no mood to lift the economic blockade without getting the accession of the State; and to accomplish this task they sent Major A.S.B Shah, a junior officer who had no knowledge of Kashmir history and had no skills in politics and diplomacy. A junior military man had to negotiate and persuade experienced Maharaja Hari Singh, Prime Minister Mehr Chand Mahajan and Ram Lal Batra Deputy Prime Minister.

Mehr Chand Mahaja later recorded that, &#8216;Major Shah was in Srinagar with a whip in one hand and a letter of accession in the other&#8230;..He was keen to have an assurance of the State&#8217;s accession to Pakistan or in the alternative, a negative assurance that I would not advise the Maharaja to accede to India. I told him this would take some time but he was not prepared to wait. When I found he had came there almost with an ultimatum, I said, &#8220;If you raise the blockade and allow food, cloth and petrol to enter the State I will discuss the matter with you.&#8221; 5

Major Shah agreed to persuade Mohammed Ali Jinnah to lift the blockade, and sent him a telegram, but got no favourable reply. Instead he was told to ask Mehr Chand Mahjan to go to Lahore and discuss the matter there. Mehr Chand Mahajan said: I was in no mood to fall into Pakistani hands. I declined the invitation as the object was to coerce me in to securing the State&#8217;s accession&#8217;. 6

4. Arrogance of Pakistani rulers

Government of Pakistan managed to fool people for sometime that these tribesmen came to help and liberate people of Jammu and Kashmir. They also claimed that these tribesmen were motivated by religious sentiments and came there on their own. Unfortunately some Kashmiris also advanced and supported that propaganda as it suited their political and personal agenda.

Over the years it has been revealed by many Pakistani officials and writers that the whole affair was initiated and managed by Pakistani officials; and main attraction for the tribesmen was not liberation of Kashmir or jihad but loot, plunder and Kashmiri women. Unfortunately those who planned this tragic expedition permitted them to loot and plunder and create atmosphere of fear that the Maharaja surrenders and begs Pakistan for accession.

People of Jammu and Kashmir had to pay a big price for this blunder of the Pakistani government. Despite all the humiliation and degradation which Sheikh Abdullah suffered at the hands of Mohammed Ali Jinnah and other Muslim League leaders, he was considering some kind of understanding with Pakistan where by the State could have maintained its special status in return for Pakistan taking certain responsibilities in line with the Standstill Agreement.

Even as late as first week of October 1947, he was persuaded by Dr M D Taseer and Mian Iftikhar Uddin to travel to Lahore and meet Mohammed Ali Jinnah and finalise matters. Sheikh Abdullah secretly travelled to Lahore with Dr Taseer and stayed at Mian Iftikhar Uddin&#8217;s house. Ego and pride of Mohammed Ali Jinnah overcame national interest of Pakistan and that of people of Jammu and Kashmir. Despite sincere advice of some people Mohammed Ali Jinnah refused to meet him, which was against Islamic teaching, against rules of politics and bad statesmanship.

Mohammed Ali Jinnah said, &#8216;I don&#8217;t need to meet this man. Kashmir is in my pocket&#8217;. 7 In another place ego centric Governor General of Pakistan said, &#8216;Who is Sheikh Muhammad Abdullah? I am prepared to discuss Kashmir with the Maharaja or senior Government official from Kashmir.&#8217; 8

This was the fourth time Mohammed Ali Jinnah rebuffed the tallest leader people of Jammu and Kashmir ever had; and it was the last opportunity to bridge differences between the most popular leader of Jammu and Kashmir and Governor General of Pakistan. According to Balraj Puri, Mr Jinnah wanted &#8216;complete surrender on the part of anybody, particularly a Muslim, seeking political alliance with him. It was too tall demand from the tallest leader of Kashmir, who was no less proud of his own personality as also that of Kashmir&#8217;. 9

Pakistan lost Kashmir not because Indians were too clever, but because Pakistani leaders were not farsighted; and they were too arrogant and ego centric. To them satisfaction of their ego was more important than the national interest. At a time when Congress leaders were trying to meet and appease Sheikh Abdullah, leaders of Pakistan treated him like a trash. They thought with help of tribesmen they will be able to annex Kashmir.

Even after this last rebuff, Sheikh Abdullah&#8217;s men were in Lahore waiting to meet some sensible Pakistani leaders with whom they could negotiate something, but Pakistani government abandoned political and diplomatic route and relied on the force of gun. It was their arrogance, impolitical attitude and too much reliance on use of gun which cost them Jammu and Kashmir. Ultimately it was the people of Jammu and Kashmir who had to suffer at that time; and who continue to suffer because of follies of Pakistani rulers.

5. What if there was no tribal invasion

I understand we cannot turn back clock of history, but as thinking people who were victims of tribal invasion; and who are even today suffering as a direct result of that conspiracy, we can analyse what might have happened if there was no tribal invasion

All the available evidence clearly indicates that the Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir did not want to accede to any country. He wanted to maintain his independence. It was possible that he could have maintained his independence if there was no outside interference.

True, not all of his citizens were happy with him; but it is also true that his subjects enjoyed more rights than subjects of other Princely States at that time. It was quite possible that after independence of his State and after independence of the Sub Continent, he could have made changes to his style of government where by he could have given more rights to people and Assembly.

He could have maintained his neutrality and made agreements with both India and Pakistan. Even few days before the tribal invasion his Deputy Prime Minister explained his vision of the State in the following words: &#8216;The Maharaja had told him that it was his ambition to make Kashmir Switzerland of the East &#8211; a completely neutral state.&#8217;

If there was no tribal invasion people of Jammu and Kashmir could have avoided loot, plunder and rapes in 1947. They could have avoided separation of families. They could have avoided division of their homeland. They could have avoided other miseries since 1947. They could have avoided the present suffering on both sides of the divide which was thrusted upon them as a direct result of militancy which started in 1988.

If there was no tribal invasion then there might have been no Kashmir dispute as we see it today. It was possible that both countries in absence of this dispute could have resolved other issues and could have developed friendly and cordial relations; and that could have led to peace and stability in the region.

In conclusion, one could say that source of many of our troubles and troubles of the region are directly related to that fatal decision of directing hordes of tribesmen in name of jihad to invade Jammu and Kashmir and loot, plunder and **** people without any accountability.

The genie of extremism and hatred released in name of jihad in October 1947 to advance political agenda, continue to spread extremism and hatred. Unfortunately that policy of promoting extremism to advance political agenda continued until very recently, and forces of extremism and hatred have become power in their own right. They have already affected lives of millions of people. Like any other living being, it wants to live and flourish; and has become out of control. Like Frankenstein monster it has turned against its creator, hence we see cries in Pakistan about terrorism, jihad and establishing writ of government, all claiming to be on the right path.

I hope those quarters who deliberately promoted extremism and hatred have learnt their lesson. Also I hope they will do their best to put things right; and will not promote terrorism and hatred in future, or create more hurdles in our inherent and most cherished right of self determination.

I thank you Mr Chairman.

References:

1. Kashmir Problem &#8211; its legal aspects, Dr HO Agarwal, page 31
2. The Kashmir of Sheikh Abdullah, Bilqees Taseer, Page 264
3. Freedom at Midnight, Larry Collins and Dominque Lapierre, Page 402
4. ibid, Page 402
5. opcit, Bilqees Taseer, page 265
6. ibid, page 265
7. ibid, Page 301
8. ibid, page 303
9. ibid, page 305

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## Omar1984

EjazR said:


> Here is a pro-Indepedance Kashmiri leder who is original from PAkistani side of Kashmir with refrences at the end.
> 
> *Dr Shabir Choudhry's blog: Tribal invasion and its implications*



You have posted an article from a *BLOG*.

Theres no proof that Pakistani Pakhtuns from tribal areas raped or killed Kashmiris. However, its well documented and its a fact that dead bodies of Muslims were coming from india to Pakistan during and after partition.


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## EjazR

Also google Jammu Kashmir Light Infantry. This regiment was formed as a result of the the local J&K militia that fought against the tribal invaders. 


*J&K Light Infantry celebrates Diamond jubilee, reunion - Express India*


> The JAK LI was raised as a volunteer force on April 15, 1948. A clarion call was given by the late Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah at the historic Lal Chowk for volunteers to come forward, protect the state and push back the raiders supported by Pakistan. Thousands volunteered, which facilitated the Indian Army to launch operations with the volunteers acting as guides, porters and even leading assaults.
> 
> After the raiders were thwarted, the volunteers were organised into fighting units under the banner of Jammu and Kashmir militia. The regiment remained deployed along the line of control as a regional force and participated in all operations. Soon after the 1971 Indo- Pak conflict, the Government of India, on December 2, 1972 recognising their valour accorded them the status of a regular regiment of the Indian Army. In April 1976, the regiment was redesignated as &#8216;The Jammu and Kashmir Light Infantry

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## EjazR

Omar1984 said:


> You have posted an article from a *BLOG*.
> 
> Theres no proof that Pakistani Pakhtuns from tribal areas raped or killed Kashmiris. However, its well documented and its a fact that dead bodies of Muslims were coming from india to Pakistan during and after partition.



It is a speech given by a pro-independance PAkistani born Kashmiri. And I quoted it because it has all the relvant details along with refrences

Please read if you are interested the following

1. Kashmir Problem &#8211; its legal aspects, Dr HO Agarwal, page 31
2. The Kashmir of Sheikh Abdullah, Bilqees Taseer, Page 264
3. Freedom at Midnight, Larry Collins and Dominque Lapierre, Page 402

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## Omar1984

EjazR said:


> Please read if you are interested the following
> 
> 1. Kashmir Problem  its legal aspects, Dr HO Agarwal, page 31
> 2. The Kashmir of Sheikh Abdullah, Bilqees Taseer, Page 264
> 3. Freedom at Midnight, Larry Collins and Dominque Lapierre, Page 402



Again, where in these refrences does it say Pakistani Pakhtuns from tribal areas killed and raped Kashmiris.

Again, theres no proof unless you can bring a valid and neutral source.


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## Omar1984

EjazR said:


> Also google Jammu Kashmir Light Infantry. This regiment was formed as a result of the the local J&K militia that fought against the tribal invaders.
> 
> 
> *J&K Light Infantry celebrates Diamond jubilee, reunion - Express India*



EXPRESS INDIA????? Bring a neutral source with proof.


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## EjazR

Omar1984 said:


> Again, where in these refrences does it say Pakistani Pakhtuns from tribal areas killed and raped Kashmiris.
> 
> Again, theres no proof unless you can bring a valid and neutral source.



Did you read the book? The authors are all Pakistani or British. The statements made in the speech are based on these historical records.

It is documented by local Kashmiris as well as British personnel who were there. The book Shadow War by a Pakistani author Arif Jamal also mentions how Missionary workers were killed and nuns raped quoting documents of that time. 


And during partition there was mob violence were both sides were killing the others. The situation was no different for Hindus and Sikhs living on what is now Pakistan. Non-muslims from Gilgit Baltistan and Mirpur and Muzaffarabad were forced and had to migrate towards the Indian side. Punjab was similarly religiously altered on both sides.


Neither the Indian nor the Pakistani state was involved in this massacre. However, the invasion of tirbals and later Pakistani forces was state policy. Just like raising the J&K militia by Sheikh Abdulla and sending the sikh regiment by the Indian state was state policy.

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## Areesh

gutsyvishal said:


> yes we all know ure a mixed breed.
> what r u making so much noise about ?



According to you bharatis our ancestors were Bharati. Now you are accusing me of mix breed. So you want to say Bharatis are a mix breed?



@foottmarks

Hey footmark why you edited your post buddy. Was it exposing your so called secularism.


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## RamGorur

Omar1984 said:


> Again, where in these refrences does it say Pakistani Pakhtuns from tribal areas killed and raped Kashmiris.
> 
> Again, theres no proof unless you can bring a valid and neutral source.



"_Baramula, India, 10th November -*The City had been stripped of its wealth and young women* before the tribesmen fled in terror at midnight, Friday, before the advancing Indian Army. *Surviving residents estimate that 3,000 of their fellow townsmen, including four Europeans and a retired British Army Officer, known only as Colonel Dykes, and his pregnant wife, were slain*. When the raiders rushed into town on 26th October, witnesses said: 'One party of Masud tribesmen immediately scaled the walls of Saint Joseph's Franciscan Convent compound, and stormed the Convent Hospital and the little church. *Four nuns and Colonel Dykes and his wife were shot immediately*. *The Raiders' greed triumphed over their blood lust'. *A former town official said: '*The raiders forced 350 local Hindus into a house, with the intention of burning it down.* The group of 100 raiders is said to be holding another five, as hostages, on a high mountain, barely visible from the town. Toda, twenty-four hours after the Indian army entered Baramula, *only 1,000 were left of a normal population of about 14,000.*"_

- Robert Trumbull, NYT, 10/11/1947.

Neutral enough?

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## GFM_EhsanUlHaq

War is not the solution of Kashmir problem my dear


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## GFM_EhsanUlHaq

India should fullfil her words about Kashmir refrendum back in 1950s


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## SpArK

*India is lying about Kashmir, Pak tells UN​*
New York: In a rare action, *Pakistan accused External Affairs Minister S M Krishna of making a 'self-serving claim' at the United Nations General Assembly about Jammu and Kashmir being an integral part of the country.*

*While exercising its right of reply, Pakistan also lambasted the minister's statement about India's credentials of a democratic and pluralistic society and its aspiration to become a permanent member of the UN Security Council.

India is lying about Kashmir, Pak tells UN*

In a statement late on Wednesday evening, Ambassador Amjad Hussain B Sial, deputy permanent representative of Pakistan, *said at the UNGA that Krishna's statement was 'far from truth and reality.*'

In his address at the UNGA, Krishna had said that Islamabad should fulfill its 'solemn commitment' of not allowing its territory to be used for terrorism directed against India, particularly against Jammu and Kashmir, which is 'an integral part of India'.

Sial claimed that Jammu and Kashmir is an internationally recognised disputed territory and the United Nations has passed more than a dozen resolutions calling for a settlement of the dispute through a free and fair plebiscite under the auspices of the UN. Numerous undertakings and statements made solemnly by Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru are on record testifying the fact, he said.

*"It is amazing that a country that continues to violate several UN resolutions, including those of the Security Council, and fails to fulfill the commitments made by its leaders, both to the international community as well as the people of Indian occupied Kashmir, has the audacity not only to claim democratic and pluralistic credentials but also aspires to become a permanent member of the Security Council,"* he said.

Reacting to Krishna's assertion that Pakistan cannot 'lecture India' on human rights and democracy, Sial said that Pakistan has only echoed in its statements what has been said and reported by international and Indian NGOs and the media about the brutal human rights violations of Kashmiris.

"If it pains India to listen to the truth from Pakistan, I can quote a number of statements made by the international community as well as by well-reputed international and Indian NGOs, which have expressed similar serious concerns," Sial said.

India hit back by telling the UNGA that violence in Jammu and Kashmir has been "fuelled over the past decades by external forces which do not want peace and progress in our region."

"This is a well-known fact. The Indian Constitution guarantees the fundamental rights of all our people, including our brethren in Jammu and Kashmir, which is an integral part of India. Free and fair elections in Jammu and Kashmir have been regularly held and the people of Jammu and Kashmir have exercised their right to franchise to elect their representatives," India said.

In response to Pakistan's right of reply, India said Islamabad's remarks were uncalled for.

"Rather than making unsolicited remarks about the internal affairs of others, Pakistan should seriously concentrate on addressing the enormous challenges confronting it -- terrorism, extremism and sectarianism, to name a few and the dismantling of the terrorist infrastructure that exists on territory under its control," India said.

"We reject all untenable and unsolicited remarks from the distinguished delegate of Pakistan," India said exercising its second right of reply.


India is lying about Kashmir, Pak tells UN

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## Rafael

*"It is amazing that a country that continues to violate several UN resolutions, including those of the Security Council, and fails to fulfill the commitments made by its leaders, both to the international community as well as the people of Indian occupied Kashmir, has the audacity not only to claim democratic and pluralistic credentials but also aspires to become a permanent member of the Security Council," he said.*



Nailed it!!

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## Rafael

By the way, why did you put :thumbs down: with it?? Is it an Indian forum?


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## SpArK

raheel1 said:


> By the way, why did you put :thumbs down: with it?? Is it an Indian forum?



Check for ur self if in doubt.


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## Areesh

BENNY said:


> Check for ur self if in doubt.



You did something very dumb.

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## Rafael

BENNY said:


> Check for ur self if in doubt.



I request the mods to change that thing! This is a Pakistani forum and we cannot have an Indian telling us what to put and when to put in pro-Pakistan threads!

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## GFM_EhsanUlHaq

War is not the solution to Kashmir problem
\

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## Ganga

One thing every one here must realize is that the world is not interested in Kashmir.It will continue being an integral part of India no matter what.


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## Ganguly

Remember an ancient Roman proverb. "It is best to profit by the madness of others". This type of non-sense statements will help India diplomatically. It will dilute the entire current challenges of Indian Kashmir. Sensible members of UN wont value these ill-logical statements, especially when in comes from Pakistan.


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## Rafael

Ganguly said:


> Remember an ancient Roman proverb. "It is best to profit by the madness of others". This type of non-sense statements will help India diplomatically. It will dilute the entire current challenges of Indian Kashmir. *Sensible members of UN wont value these ill-logical statements, especially when in comes from Pakistan.*



Ohh yeah! Only Indian statements make sense, rest of the world is a dumb ***..

Typical Indian chauvinist mentality!

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## TechLahore

Yes, the type of nonsense that happen to be the truth? What better proof of your head being buried in the sand than the fact that an internationally recognized dispute on which there are numerous UN resolutions, and declarations by dozens of countries viz their support for the plight of the terrorized Kashmiri people, strikes you as an 'internal' issue. Violence is once more growing in Kashmir and the fact that the people of this area have not accepted Indian subjugation for 63 years should give you a clue...

Kashmir is a nuclear bomb tucked under the armpit of a thief who thinks he has made off with the goods. If the Kashmir issue is not resolved, it will destroy India. Unfortunately, Nehru could not get this through his head, probably since he was a Kashmiri, but the people of the sub continent, and especially the hapless people of Kashmir who live in one the most heavily militarized regions on earth, with 650,000 occupation forces breathing down their neck, have paid a heavy price.

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## roach

Does anybody here REALLY think that any Indian politician is going to be imbecilic enough to actually let Kashmir be a free nation? 

That The Indian Army will voluntarily withdraw from J & K and allow a vacuum into which our super-friendly (dripping sarcasm here) neighbors will gleefully step in and leave our northern borders exposed? 

That we will forget all those lives lost in so many wars?

That India will agree to another manifestation of the two-nation theory, that we will agree that Kashmiri Muslims are a nation onto themselves?

Kashmir 2010 AD is NOT East Pakistan 1970 AD.

Get over 1971- the sooner you do, the better for all of us in South Asia.

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## Ganguly

raheel1 said:


> *Ohh yeah! Only Indian statements make sense, rest of the world is a dumb ***..*
> 
> Typical Indian chauvinist mentality!



Rest of World is intelligent enough, for that reason they are not listening to Pakistan false propaganda on Kashmir


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## Omar1984

BENNY said:


> *"It is amazing that a country that continues to violate several UN resolutions, including those of the Security Council, and fails to fulfill the commitments made by its leaders, both to the international community as well as the people of Indian occupied Kashmir, has the audacity not only to claim democratic and pluralistic credentials but also aspires to become a permanent member of the Security Council,"* he said.



Every indian should read this.

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## Rafael

Ganguly said:


> Rest of World is intelligent enough, for that reason they are not listening to Pakistan false propaganda on Kashmir



Yeah right!


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## roach

raheel1 said:


> Yeah right!



You are right.

Azerbaijan is listening

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## notsuperstitious

Ganguly said:


> Rest of World is intelligent enough, for that reason they are not listening to Pakistan false propaganda on Kashmir



Speeches full of passion and diction are not new to UN. Such speeches without fail come from a certain type of countries. In diplomatic world of hard realities, they matter NIL.

Not the first time Pakistan has raised this issue in UN and not the last. Its not like the world was shocked to see the Pakistani delegate rile against India. Its free speech at UN, enjoy it.


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## Fasih Khan

*India is lying about Kashmir, Pakistan tells UN *

*Summedup the Kashmir Issue in One Single Sentence. Brilliant.*


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## Star of David

Omar1984 said:


> Every indian should read this.



I VE READ...SO WHATS THE BIG DEAL? Pakistan doesn't want to solve this issue amicably and it is not open to any solution that doesn't allow it to annex Kashmir. You guys have a third and so does China and India. I don't see you guys crying over the CHinese part? When that becomes reality then we'll plan our next move. Till then enjoy the fact that it is an INtegral part of India! Bye Bye!

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## Rafael

roach said:


> You are right.
> 
> Azerbaijan is listening


The false sense of superiority and the chauvinism of Indians is amazing. Not very long ago their country was in the worse shape financially and A large number of people still live below poverty line and don't have basic necessities of live such as food, water and toilets.

And here they pretend as the world's power house and mock at the smaller or economically weaker nation to satisfy their cheap egos! 

Pathetic attitude!

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## gubbi

BENNY said:


> "*Rather than making unsolicited remarks about the internal affairs of others, Pakistan should seriously concentrate on addressing the enormous challenges confronting it* -- terrorism, extremism and sectarianism, to name a few and the dismantling of the terrorist infrastructure that exists on territory under its control," India said.
> 
> "*We reject all untenable and unsolicited remarks from the distinguished delegate of Pakistan*," India said exercising its second right of reply.


What was the phrase someone used earlier? Oh yeah - *NAILED IT*! There - the diplomatic parlance for "make love to yourself".



TechLahore said:


> If the Kashmir issue is not resolved, it will destroy India.


Ah, the vain hopes of a disillusioned few. And yet, India steadily steamrolls its behemoth economy towards progress while others holding on to straws barely manage to keep themselves afloat!

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## Rafael

fateh71 said:


> *Speeches full of passion and diction are not new to UN. Such speeches without fail come from a certain type of countries. In diplomatic world of hard realities, they matter NIL.*
> 
> Not the first time Pakistan has raised this issue in UN and not the last. Its not like the world was shocked to see the Pakistani delegate rile against India. Its free speech at UN, enjoy it.




We heard such type of speech from Krishna yesterday and ignored it for the reasons exactly you have mentioned here!


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## KS

> *"It is amazing that a country that continues to violate several UN resolutions, including those of the Security Council, and fails to fulfill the commitments made by its leaders, both to the international community as well as the people of Indian occupied Kashmir, has the audacity not only to claim democratic and pluralistic credentials but also aspires to become a permanent member of the Security Council," he said.*





> It is amazing that a country that continues to violate several UN resolutions, including those of the Security Council,



First violated by Pakistan when it unilaterally gifted a part of Kashmir to its "friend" ,then in 1965 thru Op.Gibralter and then thru Kargil in 1999 - thus a case of Pot calling the Kettle black.



> and fails to fulfill the commitments made by its leaders, both to the international community as well as the people of Indian occupied Kashmir,



Much water gone down the bridge and the Valley being ethinically cleansed of the Pandits and other minorities ,a part of the former princely state of Kashmir in the hands of Chinese a plebiscite is no longer feasible.



> has the audacity not only to claim democratic and pluralistic credentials



A nation that for most part of its existence was under the dictatorship of its generals complaining about the democracy in the world's largest democracy. Laughable isnt it.?

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## Rafael

gubbi said:


> What was the phrase someone used earlier? Oh yeah - *NAILED IT*! There - the diplomatic parlance for "make love to yourself".
> 
> 
> *Ah, the vain hopes of a disillusioned few. And yet, India steadily steamrolls its behemoth economy towards progress while others holding on to straws barely manage to keep themselves afloat!*




Refer to post no. 21. You fall in the same category!


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## TaimiKhan

raheel1 said:


> Refer to post no. 21. You fall in the same category!



They can't see it, they only see others.

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## gubbi

raheel1 said:


> Refer to post no. 21. You fall in the same category!



Is that the best you can come up with? Since you are getting personal, here's what I got for you:

"We reject all untenable and unsolicited remarks from the distinguished delegate of Pakistan"

You and your ilk worry about our poverty and toilets, we will worry about other things. Deal? And yes, Kashmir is the straw I was referring to. An intelligent guess would further clarify the sentence.

@ TaimiKhan - uncalled for indulgence of an inappropriate comment.

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## Rafael

^This was not getting personal, was just pointing out the superior complex that you guys have got which is evident from the post by one of your countrymen! 

regarding the comments of your delegate, wait for the reply from their Pakistani counterparts! 

And since you guys are so worried about our economy, we are just showing you the mirror, nothing personal here.

And if you are still offended, you are most welcome to leave the place and I shall be happy to show you the door.


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## notsuperstitious

raheel1 said:


> We heard such type of speech from Krishna yesterday and ignored it for the reasons exactly you have mentioned here!



Good, We agree then, speeches matter ZILCH in diplomacy.

Lets move on then.


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## syntax_error

raheel1 said:


> Ohh yeah! Only Indian statements make sense, rest of the world is a dumb ***..
> 
> Typical Indian chauvinist mentality!



Nope the world listens to us and our concerns so .. their not dumb ***
coz they see the sense ... please who cant find logic in it are usually the dumb ***.

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## footmarks

Omar1984 said:


> Every indian should read this.



And laugh


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## gubbi

raheel1 said:


> regarding the comments of your delegate, wait for the reply from their Pakistani counterparts!


Seriously, who cares?


> And since you guys are so worried about our economy, we are just showing you the mirror, nothing personal here.


Actually, you see, you care about our poverty and toilets but we care about our OWN economy. However, in the melee that is online arguments, the message gets lost in translation and we get accused about 'caring' about your economy. I assure you, Sir, that is not the case. Honestly, after all that you guys have done to yourselves, we stopped caring!

Anyway if you had read my post, I had replied to another post where the member mentioned that Kashmir would affect India negatively, when on the contrary I mentioned that it was not the case at all. A quick look at India's progress chart negates his point. Anyhow...


> And if you are still offended, you are most welcome to leave the place and I shall be happy to show you the door.

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## RamGorur

TechLahore said:


> Yes, the type of nonsense that happen to be the truth? What better proof of your head being buried in the sand than the fact that an internationally recognized dispute on which there are numerous UN resolutions, and declarations by dozens of countries viz their support for the plight of the terrorized Kashmiri people, strikes you as an '*internal*' issue.


Suppose there is a piece of land between your house and your neighbour. Both of you claim that piece of land as your own. So you go to a court of law to settle your case. However, it turns out, that the piece of land is within your boundary wall. While the case is being fiercely fought in the court, one fine day you notice that, that piece of land has termite infestation that needs to be dealt with. Now, tell me, can your neighbour tell you how to deal with that infestation, let alone prevent you from dealing with the infestation, on the grounds that the ownership hasn't been determined yet? Of course not.

This is basically the essence of legality of India's position - possession gives an inherent right and obligation to administer. (Recall that legal adage, 'possession is nine tenth of law'.)

Additionally, there is nothing in any UN resolution where the sovereignty of Kashmir has been questioned. On the contrary, the resolutions, unequivocally declare that it is Pakistan which is required to withdraw from the part of Kashmir that it now occupies. Not India. This is an implicit acceptance that it is Pakistan which is illegally occupying Kashmir. Not India. By virtue of IoA, the administration of Kashmir had been handed over to India in a full proof legal procedure, making administration of Kashmir prerogative to GoI. 

That's how Kashmir is India's 'internal' issue.

The rest is the usual Pakistani drivel.

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## Rafael

gubbi said:


> Seriously, who cares?




Nobody! Just like we ignored the rant of your FM!




gubbi said:


> , you see, you care about our poverty and toilets but we care about our OWN economy. However, in the melee that is online arguments, the message gets lost in translation and we get accused about 'caring' about your economy. I assure you, Sir, that is not the case. Honestly, after all that you guys have done to yourselves, we stopped caring!
> 
> Anyway if you had read my post, I had replied to another post where the member mentioned that Kashmir would affect India negatively, when on the contrary I mentioned that it was not the case at all. A quick look at India's progress chart negates his point. Anyhow..



lol..Who told you we care about your toilets and poverty?? That is a lie, we have enough mess of our own to take care off! Besides we know that this is not gonna get better with you in foreseeable future so why discuss it?

Any how i don't wanna waste my time on this so lets move on.

P.S Your pic was very childish


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## EjazR

*BBC News - India agrees to release Kashmir stone-throwers*

Authorities in Indian-administered Kashmir say men detained for pelting stones at security forces during the ongoing protests will be released immediately.

More than 100 civilians have been killed since June in protests against Indian rule.

Most of the clashes have been between young people throwing stones and Indian security forces.

India has announced a range of measures to defuse tension in the region.

*A senior official in Indian-administered Kashmir said that 50 of the nearly 100 men held for stone-throwing would be handed over to their parents after "assurance" was given about the agitators' future conduct.*

*Authorities have also decided to remove 16 bunkers used by security forces in the summer capital, Srinagar, which has seen the most violence during recent periods of unrest.*

They said they were also reviewing the possibility of removing the controversial Armed Forces Special Powers Act, which gives sweeping powers to the army, from some disturbed areas.

The moves are part of an eight-point initiative announced by India's federal government to ease the crisis in the region.

Tens of thousands of people have been killed in Kashmir since an armed revolt erupted in 1989.

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## footmarks

Areesh said:


> @foottmarks
> 
> Hey footmark why you edited your post buddy. Was it exposing your so called secularism.



Hareesh, it was for you, not for everybody. If you liked it so much, I can PM it to you.


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## Anonymous_Clown

raheel1 said:


> The false sense of superiority and the chauvinism of Indians is amazing. Not very long ago their country was in the worse shape financially and A large number of people still live below poverty line and don't have basic necessities of live such as food, water and toilets.
> 
> And here they pretend as the world's power house and mock at the smaller or economically weaker nation to satisfy their cheap egos!
> 
> Pathetic attitude!



Nonsense. You don't see Indians making fun of Haiti or Houndaras or Zimbabwe, do you? Azerbaijan officially supported Pakistan's stance on Kashmir, so they can expect to be mocked and ridiculed by Indians. They are being mocked not for being economically weaker or smaller than us, but for their stance on Kashmir. If they had supported India's stance, you would have seen Indians cheering for them and bringing up lilttle-known pices of positive information about that country.

That is how the world works.


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## Rafael

Anonymous_Clown said:


> Nonsense. You don't see Indians making fun of Haiti or Houndaras or Zimbabwe, do you? Azerbaijan officially supported Pakistan's stance on Kashmir, so they can expect to be mocked and ridiculed by Indians. They are being mocked not for being economically weaker or smaller than us, but for their stance on Kashmir. If they had supported India's stance, you would have seen Indians cheering for them and bringing up lilttle-known pices of positive information about that country.
> 
> That is how the world works.



By that logic, we have a right to mock at your poverty, dirty toilets, Aids, child abuses, people eating rats out of poverty, piss drinking, etc etc etc. 

What a stupid reply i must say!


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## Rafael

Star of David said:


> I think a more pathetic attitude is sending and sponsoring terrorism in this century don't you think?



No, i think even worse attitude is occupying a state and committing very serious human rights violations in the century, don't you think?


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## karan.1970

raheel1 said:


> By that logic, we have a right to mock at your poverty, dirty toilets, Aids, child abuses, people eating rats out of poverty, piss drinking, etc etc etc.



Dont you??


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## Rafael

karan.1970 said:


> Dont you??



we don't consider it as our RIGHT as you do by mocking at our economy!


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## karan.1970

raheel1 said:


> we don't consider it as our RIGHT as you do by mocking at our economy!



Right or not.. You mock our poverty and we your whole economy.. So whats new?


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## sensenreason

Omar1984 said:


> EXPRESS INDIA????? Bring a neutral source with proof.



Yes, lets try Dawn!

I must say the article sheds light on the reasons why Pakistan is currently where it is...One reason I think is that the Elite Punjabi Pakistani's are not okay sharing power with Abdullah's of Kashmir or Rahman's of Bangladesh or Mujahir's of Karachi or the Baloch's or the Pathans or Pashtuns.They might claim descendance from the Moghuls and therefore martial prowess but not only did the Brits defeat the Moghuls but the world today has changed and their theory of superiority is outdated and shortsighted.

Its not a wonder that Pakistan (runs by descandants of the same folks) is now closely aligned with the Britishers (take ECB bailing out PCB as an example)....as they try to capture the old glory thats long gone...The Brits are happy to align with anyone anti-Indian...as the Indians have had no such love lost for the Brits.


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## Rafael

karan.1970 said:


> Right or not.. You mock our poverty and we your whole economy.. So whats new?



nothing new here just that our economy is a relatively recent issue and will get over as soon as we get half-decent govt., but your poverty was with you from the day you started and is not very likely to get over soon!


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## Rafael

EjazR said:


> *BBC News - India agrees to release Kashmir stone-throwers*



i wonder why Indian govt. is releasing these so called " ISI Agents"??


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## Sonic_boom

raheel1 said:


> By that logic, we have a right to mock at *your poverty*, dirty toilets, Aids, child abuses, people eating rats out of poverty, piss drinking, etc etc etc.
> 
> What a stupid reply i must say!



you are posting as if there is no poverty,aids etc in pakistan..


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## Fasih Khan

EjazR said:


>



So True .... If you don't Stop State Terrorism then Counter Terrorism Strategy used be used against you. 

*Tehreek-e-Azaadi-e-Kashmir Zindabaad*

*Ghasib-O-Kabiz Hindustan Murdabaad*

*May Allah Almighty Bless Kashmiri Mujahideen, i.e, Freedom Fighters. Ameen.*


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## Rafael

Sonic_boom said:


> you are posting as if there is no poverty,aids etc in pakistan..



Yes, there is but not as serious yours is!


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## Rafael

footmarks said:


> You getting more than "10%" govt (one you are having today) is as unlikely as that too.



you just wait and watch my friend, matter of weeks now


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## karan.1970

raheel1 said:


> nothing new here just that our economy is a relatively recent issue and will get over as soon as we get half-decent govt., but your poverty was with you from the day you started and is not very likely to get over soon!



Good for Pakistan then.. I am sure we will find some thing else to retaliate with IF what you say happens. After all poverty and economy are not the only 2 problems in the subcontinent..


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## Anonymous_Clown

raheel1 said:


> By that logic, we have a right to mock at your poverty, dirty toilets, Aids, child abuses, people eating rats out of poverty, piss drinking, etc etc etc.
> 
> What a stupid reply i must say!



1. You already do mock all these things, and this is all the more surprising since all these problems are either as much, or more pronounced in Pakistan, than in India. Also, you know that there is much more that Indians can criticize about Pakistan in addition to these aspects.

2. The world works that way - an entity supporting B will get negative attention from A if A and B are long term rivals/enemies. My logic is not stupid, this happens worldwide, and has been happening from millenia. You are the stupid one if you feel otherwise.


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## hecj

Fasih Khan said:


> So True .... If you don't Stop State Terrorism then Counter Terrorism Strategy used be used against you.
> 
> *Tehreek-e-Azaadi-e-Kashmir Zindabaad*
> 
> *Ghasib-O-Kabiz Hindustan Murdabaad*
> 
> *May Allah Almighty Bless Kashmiri Mujahideen, i.e, Freedom Fighters. Ameen.*



keep ur zindabaad to ur owqn survival.u created zindabaad during soviet time and now this zindabaad are causing u loss on lives and money.

and these zindabaad guys always get the treatment according to moral of indian army.


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## notsuperstitious

RamGorur said:


> "_Baramula, India, 10th November -*The City had been stripped of its wealth and young women* before the tribesmen fled in terror at midnight, Friday, before the advancing Indian Army. *Surviving residents estimate that 3,000 of their fellow townsmen, including four Europeans and a retired British Army Officer, known only as Colonel Dykes, and his pregnant wife, were slain*. When the raiders rushed into town on 26th October, witnesses said: 'One party of Masud tribesmen immediately scaled the walls of Saint Joseph's Franciscan Convent compound, and stormed the Convent Hospital and the little church. *Four nuns and Colonel Dykes and his wife were shot immediately*. *The Raiders' greed triumphed over their blood lust'. *A former town official said: '*The raiders forced 350 local Hindus into a house, with the intention of burning it down.* The group of 100 raiders is said to be holding another five, as hostages, on a high mountain, barely visible from the town. Toda, twenty-four hours after the Indian army entered Baramula, *only 1,000 were left of a normal population of about 14,000.*"_
> 
> - Robert Trumbull, NYT, 10/11/1947.
> 
> Neutral enough?



Wow, I was unaware of such brutalities from the side that keeps crying 'brutalities' everyday. No wonder they have to be loud, they have sooooo much to hide.


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## Rafael

Sonic_boom said:


> Oh really
> we are growing at more than 9% and set to reach double digits soon and what is pakistan doing..?huffing and puffing to reach even 5%



Oh God, not again!!

Another such Indian


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## Rafael

Anonymous_Clown said:


> 1. You already do mock all these things, and this is all the more surprising since all these problems are either as much, or more pronounced in Pakistan, than in India. Also, you know that there is much more that Indians can criticize about Pakistan in addition to these aspects.
> 
> 2. The world works that way - an entity supporting B will get negative attention from A if A and B are long term rivals/enemies. My logic is not stupid, this happens worldwide, and has been happening from millenia. You are the stupid one if you feel otherwise.



1. We don't mock such things to the extent as you do, check the threads that have been created and last couple of days and you'll get an idea what i am talking about! or just have a look at this very thread specially the post above! Secondly check your statistics again regarding poverty and Aids in India. Pakistanis can also criticize India other then these aspects, these were few examples that i gave to make my point. Besides as much as you would like to believe in your economy and all, you still are a third world country.

2. I would love to discuss you that but only if you stop being personal!


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## hecj

raheel1 said:


> you just wait and watch my friend, matter of weeks now



so how many hundred weeks?

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## karan.1970

raheel1 said:


> 1. We don't mock such things to the extent as you do, check the threads that have been created and last couple of days and you'll get an idea what i am talking about! or just have a look at this very thread specially the post above! Secondly check your statistics again regarding poverty and Aids in India. Pakistanis can also criticize India other then these aspects, these were few examples that i gave to make my point. Besides as much as you would like to believe in your economy and all, you still are a third world country.
> 
> 2. I would love to discuss you that but only if you stop being personal!



Raheel.. Search for threads by Riaz Haq..


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## Rafael

hecj said:


> so how many hundred weeks?



your post has been marked, will tell you when it happens


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## Rafael

karan.1970 said:


> Raheel.. Search for threads by Riaz Haq..



Karan, i am talking about general attitude.


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## karan.1970

raheel1 said:


> Karan, i am talking about general attitude.



See.. in a tit for tat each side will try and find others weak points. Some are more vocal than others.


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## Rafael

Undivided Kashmir said:


> *Does any of those barking rants matter ? I think not.*
> 
> Pakistan does not have credibility nor voice in the international fora. Pakistani key board warriors have a good time.




Just like Krishna stopped barking? I agree!


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## Rafael

karan.1970 said:


> See.. in a tit for tat each side will try and find others weak points. Some are more vocal than others.



Ok. point taken and lets finish it here! 

My boss is gonna give me real tough time today

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## karan.1970

To both Indian and Pakistani friends. Lets not degenrate into a name calling fest. Will achieve nothing except getting the thread closed and/or lots of people getting kicked out.


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## Undivided Kashmir

Those bastards should be stoned, then only they will realise the nuisance they are creating.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

raheel1 said:


> Karan, i am talking about general attitude.



In general attitude,we have as much respect for your country and progress as much we have for South Asia,only when false/silly/inflamtory remarks are made by senior/elite members like "all Indians live in slums" we get pissed and attack.


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## Sonic_boom

raheel1 said:


> Just like Krishna stopped barking? I agree!



Krishna said nothing wrong


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## Rafael

Bombensturm said:


> *In general attitude,we have as much respect for your country and progress as much we have for South Asia*,only when false/silly/inflamtory remarks are made by senior/elite members like "all Indians live in slums" we get pissed and attack.




I'd take that with a pinch of salt! 

Anyways no more posts from my side today or else i am gonna loose my job


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## silent hill

InPhilTraitor said:


> The word for the Pakistani dude in UN is "Truthiness".
> Truthiness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



and this is your response??


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## silent hill

hecj said:


> so how many hundred weeks?



its definitely a count down for bharat


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## PakShaheen79

What a big leap by India. Freeing young kids who were jailed for legitimate right of protesting against occupation.


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## Undivided Kashmir

dabong1 said:


> His not india......his in kashmir
> 
> The same thing can be said about all the traitors that support india......KICK UM OUT OF KASHMIR.



R u from Mars or what ?

Come to earth and see J & K is part of India and will always be.


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## karan.1970

dabong1 said:


> His not india......his in kashmir
> 
> The same thing can be said about all the traitors that support india......KICK UM OUT OF KASHMIR.



As long as you are refering to Pakistani Kashmir, thats fine. J&K is on our side of the border. You can questiion the legitimacy of that border all you want, but unless you have the might to change the situation, its just talk..

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## dabong1

Undivided Kashmir said:


> R u from Mars or what ?



No



Undivided Kashmir said:


> Come to earth and see J & K is part of India and will always be.



Well according to the UN its not.


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## dabong1

karan.1970 said:


> As long as you are refering to Pakistani Kashmir, thats fine.



Am talking about the bit of kashmir that was invaded by the indian army and not the liberated bit that pakistanfreed.




karan.1970 said:


> J&K is on our side of the border. You can questiion the legitimacy of that border all you want, but unless you have the might to change the situation, its just talk..



Thats good to hear.......at least you have given up on the legal and moral argument after being proved wrong numerous times.


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## karan.1970

dabong1 said:


> Am talking about the bit of kashmir that was invaded by the indian army and not the liberated bit that pakistanfreed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats good to hear.......*at least you have given up on the legal and moral argument *after being proved wrong numerous times.



May be you learned your english in a different environment, but what part of my post makes you believe the bold drivel in your post above..

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## dabong1

karan.1970 said:


> May be you learned your english in a different environment, but what part of my post makes you believe the bold drivel in your post above..


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## anurag_singh

dabong1 said:


>


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## TechLahore

gubbi said:


> What was the phrase someone used earlier? Oh yeah - *NAILED IT*! There - the diplomatic parlance for "make love to yourself".
> 
> 
> Ah, the vain hopes of a disillusioned few. And yet, India steadily steamrolls its behemoth economy towards progress while others holding on to straws barely manage to keep themselves afloat!



I wouldn't call the 60 odd countries who have out and out supported the plight of Kashmiris, "disillusioned". I would, however, call you not in touch with reality if you think that the Kashmiris will suddenly accept Indian occupation after 63 years of brutality and resistance.


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## TechLahore

RamGorur said:


> Suppose there is a piece of land between your house and your neighbour. Both of you claim that piece of land as your own. So you go to a court of law to settle your case. However, it turns out, that the piece of land is within your boundary wall. While the case is being fiercely fought in the court, one fine day you notice that, that piece of land has termite infestation that needs to be dealt with. Now, tell me, can your neighbour tell you how to deal with that infestation, let alone prevent you from dealing with the infestation, on the grounds that the ownership hasn't been determined yet? Of course not.
> 
> This is basically the essence of legality of India's position - possession gives an inherent right and obligation to administer. (Recall that legal adage, 'possession is nine tenth of law'.)
> 
> Additionally, there is nothing in any UN resolution where the sovereignty of Kashmir has been questioned. On the contrary, the resolutions, unequivocally declare that it is Pakistan which is required to withdraw from the part of Kashmir that it now occupies. Not India. This is an implicit acceptance that it is Pakistan which is illegally occupying Kashmir. Not India. By virtue of IoA, the administration of Kashmir had been handed over to India in a full proof legal procedure, making administration of Kashmir prerogative to GoI.
> 
> That's how Kashmir is India's 'internal' issue.
> 
> The rest is the usual Pakistani drivel.



You've shot your own poorly concocted strawman argument in the head.

If the "court" is the UN, which is an institution that decides issues between countries, then the Kashmir issue as the "case" being decided is by definition internationalized and not an internal Indian issue.

Secondly, regardless of the conditions described in the UN resolutions, the conditions are to be fulfilled so that a plebiscite can take place. That also is a strong confirmation of how the world sees the Kashmir issue; an unfinished remnant of partition that will have to be decided. The current status quo is temporary and that is implicit in all UN resolutions.

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## kingdurgaking

dabong1 said:


> So the indian leaders sending other peoples children to fight and get killed in kashmir is not "eating others lifes"?
> The kashmiris did not invade india it was india that invaded kasgmir.
> 
> You thinking geelani is a kid just show how detached to you are from the entire kashmir freedom fight.
> 
> Nearly 99&#37; of all killings ,rapes,destruction,mass demonstrations,international media coverage is focused on IOK.........Ooh no its the ISI...pak army....freedom fighters....anybody but the indians fault.



You really dont have any knowledge of what is happening inside kashmir.. if you had atleast followed some news you would have not replied back this poorly...

India never invaded kashmir.. India rescued kashmir from Pakistan clutches... If india want to invade it would have done immediately after independence it would not have waited until a unrest happened.. Pakistan wanted to take over kashmir immediately after independence its diplomacy failed miserably and it started to plunder the people created unrest.. so we have to send our people to save those innocents... So logically our GoI never ate any one lives...

Geelani is very much a kid ... it is you who dont understand what is a real development is... You are also thinking on his the lines of geelani which will put every one in dark land... come out of it sirjee.. go round the world and see and then go to AJK.. if you need to know what is development

For your information .. there are no freedom fighters in JK.. those who are protesting are pawns of ISI or those people who got money from ISI/Army... We can see lot of people staying away from them and even showed your existence in some wars... what you have got to say for it??


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## kingdurgaking

dabong1 said:


> Am talking about the bit of kashmir that was invaded by the indian army and not the liberated bit that pakistanfreed.
> 
> Thats good to hear.......at least you have given up on the legal and moral argument after being proved wrong numerous times.



Pakistan freed kashmir?? where it is buddy??? i cant see any such country in the map.. is it something created today??

You know what image is there in outside world for P0K??? Terrorist breeding area.. do you feel happy about it.. do you hear the same in JK... you hear violence in JK because mosquito breded in P0K is creating problem here.. if "All-out/mortien" gives some quick solution then JK will be really a heaven on earth...


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## jbond197

Omar1984 said:


> Every indian should read this.



OK I read it and this is a statement by a Pakistani.. Pakistan has been making such statements for past 63 years. How different is this one and how will it help Pakistan?


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## TechLahore

jbond197 said:


> OK I read it and this is a statement by a Pakistani.. Pakistan has been making such statements for past 63 years. How different is this one and how will it help Pakistan?



It will help the people of Kashmir by keeping their issue in the limelight at the premier international forum. The issue will remain a powder keg and a focus of international attendance and worry until it is resolved. This statement is not an isolated event, it is part of a diplomatic push that has won support from dozens and dozens of countries and international organizations.


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## Srinivas

raheel1 said:


> *"It is amazing that a country that continues to violate several UN resolutions, including those of the Security Council, and fails to fulfill the commitments made by its leaders, both to the international community as well as the people of Indian occupied Kashmir, has the audacity not only to claim democratic and pluralistic credentials but also aspires to become a permanent member of the Security Council," he said.*
> 
> 
> 
> Nailed it!!



Buddy security council seat is not about human right violations or democracy if yes then China will be the first nation out of it.
These foolish comments will only degrade pakistans credibility 

Again This looks like a child crying while the whole world is not taking any notice. If pakistan wants to talk about IOK before that lets talk about the illegal occupation of kashmir done by pakistan and the region ceded to China 

To remind you nobody can stop the growing influence of India


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## jbond197

TechLahore said:


> It will help the people of Kashmir by keeping their issue in the limelight at the premier international forum.



Sorry I disagree.. The statement is made by Pakistan to substatiate its claim of Kashmir and not to help the people of kashmir in any way. 



> The issue will remain a powder keg and a focus of international attendance and worry until it is resolved.



Sir It matters only to few who need some kind of assistance in Afghan WOT from you. Most don't even focus on this issue. Such passionate speeches can not help change the ground reality.



> This statement is not an isolated event, it is part of a diplomatic push that has won support from dozens and dozens of countries and international organizations



Well, Diplomacy works when it is favourable to both the parties. Most countries while taking a diplomatic stance will gauge the benefits gained out of its actions. India has been diplomatically dealing with all the major nations on the topic. I don't see there has been any change in anybody's stance till date.


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## Srinivas

TechLahore said:


> Kashmir is a nuclear bomb tucked under the armpit of a thief who thinks he has made off with the goods. If the Kashmir issue is not resolved, it will destroy India. Unfortunately, Nehru could not get this through his head, probably since he was a Kashmiri, but the people of the sub continent, and especially the hapless people of Kashmir who live in one the most heavily militarized regions on earth, with 650,000 occupation forces breathing down their neck, have paid a heavy price.



*Good post buddy i appreciate it but change the word India to pakistan then it will be ok.*
Pakistan has lost half of its country because of enmity on Kashmir issue and it is now a victim of the terrorism. Instead of giving lessons to India try to develop good relations with it.
I accept that presence of armed forces is making life difficult in Kashmir but it is acceptable because of challenges we face from the other side of the border. 
As time passes Kashmirs will be integrated and the region will even come close to the rest India.


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## Srinivas

TechLahore said:


> It will help the people of Kashmir by keeping their issue in the limelight at the premier international forum. The issue will remain a powder keg and a focus of international attendance and worry until it is resolved. This statement is not an isolated event, it is part of a diplomatic push that has won support from dozens and dozens of countries and international organizations.



Yes indeed but diplomatically pakistan is far behind India.

The strategy of ISI using the democratic means like protesting,mass movement of crowds and provoking armed forces and sacrificing Kashmiri youth seems to be working for a While .


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## Srinivas

Omar1984 said:


> Every indian should read this.



Buddy the statement in your signature is for making Pakistanis happy. It will have no affect to India or other countries because Pakistan is crying and making illegal claims since its birth 

Nice comments to cheer the dead morale of Isi and terrorists


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## karan.1970

TechLahore said:


> Yes, the type of nonsense that happen to be the truth? What better proof of your head being buried in the sand than the fact that an internationally recognized dispute on which there are numerous UN resolutions, and declarations by dozens of countries viz their support for the plight of the terrorized Kashmiri people, strikes you as an 'internal' issue. Violence is once more growing in Kashmir and the fact that the people of this area have not accepted Indian subjugation for 63 years should give you a clue...
> 
> Kashmir is a nuclear bomb tucked under the armpit of a thief who thinks he has made off with the goods. If the Kashmir issue is not resolved, it will destroy India. Unfortunately, Nehru could not get this through his head, probably since he was a Kashmiri, but the people of the sub continent, and especially the hapless people of Kashmir who live in one the most heavily militarized regions on earth, with 650,000 occupation forces breathing down their neck, have paid a heavy price.



=============================================
My original post was deleted with a reason that I was refering to foreign sponsored terrorism in Pakistan. I believe that the assumption that the terrorism in Pakistan is foreign sponsored is the moderator's own opinion which I may not agree to. But leaving that aside, I will try to reproduce my earlier response without refering to Pakistan's issues
=============================================

When was the last of the dozen UN resolutions that were passed by UN on Kashmir.. Wasnt in in 1950's or so??

When was it when a country of significance formally last asked India to get out of Kashmir (and I am not refering to non state players like a scattered MP or a NGO or some other Pakistani lackeys)

You talk about escalating violence based on last 3 months.. Trends are generally seen over a larger time. And a lot of Pakistani members have rubbished the trend around downward trajectory of Pakistani economy over last 3 years based on an arguement that 3 years is a short period to spot such a trend. Attaching some trends over a larger period of time that show a very different picture..











Rest of your post is an uncharacteristic sermon and doesnt have much to respond to. On calling India a thief, well, We all know what the whole world including your frontline allys call Pakistan. Compared to that, if a moderator of a forum belonging to India's worst enemy calls India a thief, that not too much of skin off my back..



=====================================
Hope I have not violated any rules this time around..

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## RamGorur

TechLahore said:


> You've shot your own poorly concocted strawman argument in the head.
> 
> If the "court" is the UN, which is an institution that decides issues between countries, then the Kashmir issue as the "case" being decided is by definition internationalized and not an internal Indian issue.


And so starts the goal post shifting. 

As usual missed the point; which is, _administering_ Kashmir is India's _internal_ affair, supported by all canons of law and even the UN resolutions, regardless if the 'issue' is international, being 'decided' by UN. 

Secondly, Chapter VI resolutions have no legal binding in the same sense as verdict of a court of law has. What that implies is that UN under Chapter VI doesn't have the same standing as a court of law has. What that in turn implies is that UN under Chapter VI doesn't _decide_ 'issues between countries', but merely _recommends_. 

My analogy was meant to illustrate what possession implies. Whether the 'issue' of Kashmir is 'international', is irrelevant to the issue of _administration_ of Kashmir. I can see that you can't make a distinction between the two.

A side note. The UN resolutions make it aptly clear that Kashmir on Indian side is to be _administered_ by India and the portion that is to be vacated by Pakistan is to be administered by local authority under the supervision of UN. That actually makes Pakistan's administration of P0K illegal and against the UN resolutions.



> Secondly, regardless of the conditions described in the UN resolutions, the conditions are to be fulfilled so that a plebiscite can take place. That also is a strong confirmation of how the world sees the Kashmir issue; an unfinished remnant of partition that will have to be decided. The current status quo is temporary and that is implicit in all UN resolutions.


Now this is what is called a strawman. How the world sees Kashmir issue is irrelevant to the question of whether _administering_ Kashmir is India's sole prerogative and hence _internal_ issue. In fact, even if we consider the 'current status quo' as 'temporary', it still doesn't take away the exclusive right of India to _administer_ Kashmir. 


Try again next time and this time acquaint yourself with the resolutions.


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## TechLahore

Karan where is the 2010 data? I would be interested to see if violence in Kashmir during 2010 has further diminished or whether it is now on the upswing.

I would explain the reduction in violence in Kashmir in recent years to Pakistan's numerous efforts for reconciliation and peace with India. There are many groups in Kashmir which look to Pakistan for moral support and when there is potential for peace, Pakistan has used its diplomatic influence to persuade these groups to a moratorium in the hope of getting to a positive outcome. You have heard numerous statements from Kashmiri leaders concerning their views re India and Pakistan with reference to the latest crisis. To pretend that a situation which is plain as day simply does not exist is simply giving in to the urge to be disingenuous.

All Pakistan's overtures, most notably Musharraf's almost-cemented agreement, have been undermined by right-wingers in India. We are being led to believe that India does not want peace. It simply wants to lay claim to what is not its territory and run off, as I said previously, with a nuclear bomb tucked under its armpit. Forget Pakistan and India's stance - just look at the preponderance of statements, resolutions etc. in support of the recognition of Kashmir as an *international* dispute. When you say Kashmir is an "internal" issue, you lose all credibility.

As for the context within which a resolution can materialize, it is important to first accept that neither the Kashmiri people nor the people of Pakistan will be cowered or threatened. This is the fundamental issue India has had with Pakistan, in fact... that it expects Pakistan to accept India's hegemony over the region. That will never happen. Pakistan might be smaller than India, but as we all know, faced with an existential threat or a threat to its territory, it has more than enough potential (all rhetoric aside) to undo India completely, even if that results in the undoing of the sub continent. 

As for Sukhoi's snide reference to Pakistan "losing its territory", you are welcome to bring up the creation of Bangladesh. And I will simply ask you whether you think the goals Indira Gandhi had for East Bengal have come to pass. Was Bangladesh reunited with India? Has it become a serf-state to India? Has it resolved all disputes with India? Has it lost its muslim identity? Does it now have a greater percentage of muslims in its population than it did in 1947? Let's ask some of the Bangladeshi members here to comment. Perhaps they can tell you what they think of India and its policies. With a calm mind, if you look at the net result of the '71 war, you will see that it was no victory for India. In any sense of the word. I am not the only one saying it. Numerous Indian analysts and strategists have opined similarly. But let's leave that aside for another day when we are discussing '71. I am simply responding to the little off-topic barb Sukhoi chose to throw in there... 

Finally, let me tell you. Indians and Pakistani participants on this forum are NOT going to see eye to eye on Kashmir. For the love of God, it is a nuclear flashpoint as accepted by all the world's major powers and all the relevant, credible fora. Which "domestic" or "internal" issue is so potentially explosive?

So you can tow the official GoI line but know that while you do so, your own government repeatedly makes statements agreeing to discuss all issues, including Kashmir. Have you agreed to discuss any other "internal" issues with us? Or China? Or any other neighbour? If Kashmir is so "internal" why is your own government, and your own foreign office, on record for discussing a resolution with Pakistan?

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## TechLahore

RamGorur said:


> Now this is what is called a strawman. How the world sees Kashmir issue is irrelevant to the question of whether _administering_ Kashmir is India's sole prerogative and hence _internal_ issue. In fact, even if we consider the 'current status quo' as 'temporary', it still doesn't take away the exclusive right of India to _administer_ Kashmir.
> 
> 
> Try again next time and this time acquaint yourself with the resolutions.



And by administering you mean killing in cold blood? Because that's what's been happening. Administering a territory as a force of occupation does not exempt you from humanity.

Acquaint yourself with common sense and a basic understanding of humane behaviour and try again.

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## TechLahore

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> To remind you nobody can stop the growing influence of India



Let me know when the "growing influence of India" restores Kashmir's territory as an atoot angh, and when the desire for freedom of choice has been stamped out from the hearts of the Kashmiri people.

Until then, put a sock in it.


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## ChinaRocks

India is seriously violating human rights.

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## RamGorur

TechLahore said:


> And by administering you mean killing in cold blood? Because that's what's been happening. Administering a territory as a force of occupation does not exempt you from humanity.
> 
> Acquaint yourself with common sense and a basic understanding of humane behaviour and try again.


Keep shifting your posts for as much as you want and keep raising as many strawmen as you want. I wanted to establish the vacuity of your statement:

"_What better proof of your head being buried in the sand than the fact that an internationally recognized dispute on which there are numerous UN resolutions, and declarations by dozens of countries viz their support for the plight of the terrorized Kashmiri people, strikes you as an 'internal' issue._"

Having done that, I have nothing more to add.

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## RamGorur

TechLahore said:


> Karan where is the 2010 data? I would be interested to see if violence in Kashmir during 2010 has further diminished or whether it is now on the upswing.


Ministry of Home Affairs say it is:

Till July, 2010
Incidents: 310; SF Killed: 40; Civilians Killed: 24; Terrorists Killed: 130



> And I will simply ask you whether you think the goals Indira Gandhi had for East Bengal have come to pass. Was Bangladesh reunited with India? Has it become a serf-state to India? Has it resolved all disputes with India? Has it lost its muslim identity? Does it now have a greater percentage of muslims in its population than it did in 1947?


So many strawmen. Mrs Gandhi's goal was never to reunite East Pakistan with India, to make it a serf-state to India, to make it loose Muslim identity or to reduce Muslim population.



> So you can tow the official GoI line but know that while you do so, your own government repeatedly makes statements agreeing to discuss all issues, including Kashmir. Have you agreed to discuss any other "internal" issues with us? Or China? Or any other neighbour? If Kashmir is so "internal" why is your own government, and your own foreign office, on record for discussing a resolution with Pakistan?


Non-sequitur. India doesn't talk to Pakistan about how to run Kashmir, which is what India claims to be an internal issue.


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## TechLahore

RamGorur said:


> Keep shifting your posts for as much as you want and keep raising as many strawmen as you want. I wanted to establish the vacuity of your statement:
> 
> "_What better proof of your head being buried in the sand than the fact that an internationally recognized dispute on which there are numerous UN resolutions, and declarations by dozens of countries viz their support for the plight of the terrorized Kashmiri people, strikes you as an 'internal' issue._"
> 
> Having done that, I have nothing more to add.



If you were the only one you wanted to convince, you shouldn't have bothered voicing your opinion.


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## TechLahore

RamGorur said:


> Ministry of Home Affairs say it is:
> 
> Till July, 2010
> Incidents: 310; SF Killed: 40; Civilians Killed: 24; Terrorists Killed: 130



Forgive me if I don't trust the opinion of the perpetrator himself. 




> Non-sequitur. India doesn't talk to Pakistan about how to run Kashmir, which is what India claims to be an internal issue.



Nonsense. India has often discussed how to administer Kashmir, in fact several points of the agreement Musharraf worked out with Vajpayee were focused on how to administer Kashmir. Jaswant Singh has validated this view. Please get current on your reading.


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## karan.1970

TechLahore said:


> Karan where is the 2010 data? I would be interested to see if violence in Kashmir during 2010 has further diminished or whether it is now on the upswing.
> 
> I would explain the reduction in violence in Kashmir in recent years to Pakistan's numerous efforts for reconciliation and peace with India. There are many groups in Kashmir which look to Pakistan for moral support and when there is potential for peace, Pakistan has used its diplomatic influence to persuade these groups to a moratorium in the hope of getting to a positive outcome. You have heard numerous statements from Kashmiri leaders concerning their views re India and Pakistan with reference to the latest crisis. To pretend that a situation which is plain as day simply does not exist is simply giving in to the urge to be disingenuous.
> 
> All Pakistan's overtures, most notably Musharraf's almost-cemented agreement, have been undermined by right-wingers in India. We are being led to believe that India does not want peace. It simply wants to lay claim to what is not its territory and run off, as I said previously, with a nuclear bomb tucked under its armpit. Forget Pakistan and India's stance - just look at the preponderance of statements, resolutions etc. in support of the recognition of Kashmir as an *international* dispute. When you say Kashmir is an "internal" issue, you lose all credibility.
> 
> As for the context within which a resolution can materialize, it is important to first accept that neither the Kashmiri people nor the people of Pakistan will be cowered or threatened. This is the fundamental issue India has had with Pakistan, in fact... that it expects Pakistan to accept India's hegemony over the region. That will never happen. Pakistan might be smaller than India, but as we all know, faced with an existential threat or a threat to its territory, it has more than enough potential (all rhetoric aside) to undo India completely, even if that results in the undoing of the sub continent.
> 
> As for Sukhoi's snide reference to Pakistan "losing its territory", you are welcome to bring up the creation of Bangladesh. And I will simply ask you whether you think the goals Indira Gandhi had for East Bengal have come to pass. Was Bangladesh reunited with India? Has it become a serf-state to India? Has it resolved all disputes with India? Has it lost its muslim identity? Does it now have a greater percentage of muslims in its population than it did in 1947? Let's ask some of the Bangladeshi members here to comment. Perhaps they can tell you what they think of India and its policies. With a calm mind, if you look at the net result of the '71 war, you will see that it was no victory for India. In any sense of the word. I am not the only one saying it. Numerous Indian analysts and strategists have opined similarly. But let's leave that aside for another day when we are discussing '71. I am simply responding to the little off-topic barb Sukhoi chose to throw in there...
> 
> Finally, let me tell you. Indians and Pakistani participants on this forum are NOT going to see eye to eye on Kashmir. For the love of God, it is a nuclear flashpoint as accepted by all the world's major powers and all the relevant, credible fora. Which "domestic" or "internal" issue is so potentially explosive?
> 
> So you can tow the official GoI line but know that while you do so, your own government repeatedly makes statements agreeing to discuss all issues, including Kashmir. Have you agreed to discuss any other "internal" issues with us? Or China? Or any other neighbour? If Kashmir is so "internal" why is your own government, and your own foreign office, on record for discussing a resolution with Pakistan?



2010 data is not yet published at the site. Since 2009 data came up in March of 2010, I expect the same for 2010.

I dont believe Pakistan has been trying a peaceful angle in Kashmir since 2001. And thats the start point of the trend. To think Pakistan is doing anything positive out of goodness of its heart is pure naivety. If Pakistan's support for Kashmiri groups has come down, its because of international pressure, the debacle in Kargil and linking of its support to insurgents in Kashmir to Cross border Islamic terrorism. 

And again.. What statements and resolutions. I havent heard of any recent ones either from UN or any other significant nations. Was there a support offered to FM Quereshi in the UN this time while he made his pitch?? I dont think so...

There is no question of bullying anyone. Its a pipedream to assume that a redrawing of borders can happen in today's day and age. Now there have been instances where the 2 countries came close to a solution, but if there was right wing resistence in India between 2003-2008, post Musharraf, the GoP is also not a big fan of that approach. So its simply an arguement of convinience to lay the blame at India's door. 

I will not get into the Pakistan loosing its territory since its not related to Kashmir, but you assume Indira Gandhi's intentions based on your beliefs and data points and that may be true or may be not..

About the comment on India discussing its internal matters with Pakistan.. You see from a GoI stand point, this is some what different because India believes that a part of its territory is in Pakistan's pocession. So just like Askai Chin is discussed with China, Kashmir is discussed with Pakistan. Recently Indian FM actually asked Pakistan to vacate the land under its illegal occupation.. Does not in any way lends credence to Pakistan's claim over J&K.

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## karan.1970

TechLahore said:


> Forgive me if I don't trust the opinion of the perpetrator himself.



Who else would publish this?? By your logic, every claim Pakistan makes about its WOT within Pakistani borders is also a suspect.. Isnt it?


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## Srinivas

ChinaRocks said:


> India is seriously violating human rights.


 Chinese talking about human rights

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## gubbi

TechLahore said:


> I wouldn't call the 60 odd countries who have out and out supported the plight of Kashmiris, "disillusioned".


Where? What countries?
The only noise anyone is making is about the heavy handed response that India has shown in the present unrest - a fact acknowledged by the GoI and many Indians. There are certain administrative lapses which need to be corrected, and they will be. Unfortunately it takes a response of this magnitude for some Indian babus to wake up and act!

Talking about 'plight', Kashmiris are the most pampered lot in India with self-serving pompous pinheads for leaders.

That being said, nobody in their sane minds or they whose voice carries diplomatic weight have called for anything other than restoring peace and law & order in Kashmir. I havent read anyone calling for independence - except for those disillusioned 'few'.


> I would, however, call you not in touch with reality if you think that the Kashmiris will suddenly accept Indian occupation after 63 years of brutality and resistance.


Again, what brutality are you talking about? Anyone who picks up arms against the State knows the consequences (hopefully) and our democratically elected govt has the right - bestowed upon them by the majority mandate and Indian constitution - to respond appropriately. Also the Constitution does NOT allow for secession. Anyway, Kashmiris dont actually have a choice. 

Seriously, make us a pitch - for discussion's sake - as to why Kashmir should join Pakistan (considering that Independence is not practically an option).

Talk about reality TechLahore, I would have appreciated you if you had not deleted Karan's post about the comparative casualty figures for J&K (an apparently restive region in India) and Pakistan (a country). A kneejerk reaction to the data by blaming 'foreign sponsored terrorism in Pakistan' (a phrase so ironic) speaks volumes about 'touch with reality'. For your country's better future, IMHO, you should've accepted this reality.


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## RamGorur

TechLahore said:


> Forgive me if I don't trust the opinion of the perpetrator himself.


Forgiven, for expecting such internal data to be generated by non-Indian source. 



> Nonsense. India has often discussed how to administer Kashmir, in fact several points of the agreement Musharraf worked out with Vajpayee were focused on how to administer Kashmir. Jaswant Singh has validated this view. Please get current on your reading.


Rubbish. The so called 'administration' is _post_-settlement administration, not administration as of _now_.


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## RamGorur

TechLahore said:


> If you were the only one you wanted to convince, you shouldn't have bothered voicing your opinion.


Well, I will take those goalpost shifts, strawmen and non-sequiturs as confirmation that you do not exactly have a rebuttal.

Convincing was not the purpose. Establishing was.


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## pkd

Kashmir is a UN mandated disputed territory: Shawl 
LONDON, Sept 30 (APP)- A UK-based Kashmiri leader commenting on the address of Indian Foreign Minister S.M.Krishna at the United Nations has termed it a sterile moribund rhetoric.Nazir Ahmed Shawl, Executive Director, Kashmir Centre, London, said Krishnas reference to Kashmir as an integral part of India is contrary to United Nations record.Jammu And Kashmir State is UN mandated disputed territory whose political future is yet to be ascertained. It is also contrary to various promises and commitments made by the Indian leadership to the people of Jammu and Kashmir, in different international Fora and also on the floor of Indian parliament, he said.



Shawl stated that Prime Minister Nehrus words are still ringing and echoing when he said, We had given our pledge to the people of Kashmir and subsequently to the United Nations; we stood by it and we stand by it today. Let the people of Kashmir decide.
Elections which have been referred as plebiscite by Mr. Krishna have simply been an insult to the free will of Kashmiri people and these elections have always been manipulated and massively rigged, he added.
Shawl further pointed out that even Omar Abdullah, the puppet chief minister of Jammu and Kashmir in his speech at Gander bal on Wednesday contradicts Mr. Krishna when he said that the elections have nothing to do with future of Kashmir.
Mr Krishna failed to acknowledge the Indian state terrorism unleashed by Indian forces in Kashmir. What Mr. Krishna and the political leadership of India require is to shun ostrich approach to the ground realities in Kashmir.
The slogan to right to self determination which reverberates in Kashmir needs to be heeded and a political will for peaceful resolution of Kashmir dispute needs to be demonstrated.


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## WHF

TechLahore said:


> Yes, the type of nonsense that happen to be the truth? What better proof of your head being buried in the sand than *the fact that an internationally recognized dispute on which there are numerous UN resolutions, and declarations by dozens of countries viz their support for the plight of the terrorized Kashmiri people*, strikes you as an 'internal' issue. Violence is once more growing in Kashmir and the fact that the people of this area have not accepted Indian subjugation for 63 years should give you a clue...
> 
> Kashmir is a nuclear bomb tucked under the armpit of a thief who thinks he has made off with the goods. *If the Kashmir issue is not resolved, it will destroy India.* Unfortunately, Nehru could not get this through his head, probably since he was a Kashmiri, but the people of the sub continent, and especially the hapless people of Kashmir who live in one the most heavily militarized regions on earth, with 650,000 occupation forces breathing down their neck, have paid a heavy price.



If it is so well supported by the UN then get a UN sanctions slapped on India as india got pakistani organisations slapped by UN sanctions by world support.As claimed by u, u already have the international backing(barking) with u.

Destroy India??My foot.

63 years...

India 1947.
Pakistan 1947.

India in 2010= india in 1947 + sikkim+auranachal pradesh+Goa+Huge economy+Huge military.
Remember this indian surge was obtained inspite of kashmir problem since 1989.

Pakistan in 2010=pakistan in 1947- bangladesh+ devastating internal security problems and economy.

So who is getting destroyed by the obsession of azadi and kashmir??

India or pakistan??
Pakistan in 2010


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## silent hill

WHF said:


> If it is so well supported by the UN then get a UN sanctions slapped on India as india got pakistani organisations slapped by UN sanctions by world support.As claimed by u, u already have the international backing(barking) with u.
> 
> Destroy India??My foot.
> 
> 63 years...
> 
> India 1947.
> Pakistan 1947.
> 
> India in 2010= india in 1947 + sikkim+auranachal pradesh+Goa+Huge economy+Huge military.
> Remember this indian surge was obtained inspite of kashmir problem since 1989.
> 
> Pakistan in 2010=pakistan in 1947- bangladesh+ devastating internal security problems and economy.
> 
> So who is getting destroyed by the obsession of azadi and kashmir??
> 
> India or pakistan??
> Pakistan in 2010



huuuuggggeee economy(huge like millions of impoverished indians)

huuuuuuggggggeee military(which cant even produce a proper missile, tank, aircraft etc)


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## hecj

silent hill said:


> huuuuggggeee economy(huge like millions of impoverished indians)
> 
> huuuuuuggggggeee military(which cant even produce a proper missile, tank, aircraft etc)





> huuuuggggeee economy(huge like millions of impoverished indians)



more than 3 times of your population is the population in india which can get 3 time diet.so check out the huge.




> huuuuuuggggggeee military(which cant even produce a proper missile, tank, aircraft etc



copying and painting doesnt mean an original self written copy.rest u can understand


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## silent hill

hecj said:


> copying and painting doesnt mean an original self written copy.rest u can understand



it doesnt mean that you do copying and spraying job with russian tools, others do the same, and for sake of arguement we accept, ok we did a spray job, even then we are better than you as we actually make things and not just blabber abt it..

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## TechLahore

karan.1970 said:


> Who else would publish this?? By your logic, every claim Pakistan makes about its WOT within Pakistani borders is also a suspect.. Isnt it?



You are welcome to suspect it, but since it doesn't have any relevance to a Pak-India issue, second guessing it would be academic.

Kashmir is very much an internationalized issue and a subject of dispute between two *countries*. Therefore, the data from an Indian ministry is biased in that it is presented by one of the parties involved in the dispute. And that dispute is the subject of discussion, thereby the relevancy of questioning the data. I can question rainfall statistics for Maharashtra, just like you can question Pakistan's WOT claims, but both of those would be equally irrelevant to the current discussion.


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## TechLahore

RamGorur said:


> Well, I will take those goalpost shifts, strawmen and non-sequiturs as confirmation that you do not exactly have a rebuttal.



You may fancy yourself as the audience, the jury and the judge but that is solely your own delusion. You are allowed, of course, to indulge in your delusions as much as you like. Carry on.



> Convincing was not the purpose. Establishing was.



In which you failed miserably.


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## TechLahore

RamGorur said:


> Forgiven, for expecting such internal data to be generated by non-Indian source.



Get off your high horse. Data about Indian atrocities in Kashmir is collected by numerous sources, including international agencies. It has been a powder keg for 63 years and a nuclear flashpoint for at least 12. Obviously it is a concern to the international community, which is why you see dozens of countries passing resolutions condemning Indian mistreatment of the occupied people of Kashmir. That is a fact, though obviously a bitter pill to swallow for the delusional lot.



> Rubbish. The so called 'administration' is _post_-settlement administration, not administration as of _now_.



Oh, so you are then agreeing that the Indian government not only sees Kashmir as a disputed issue, it is also engaged in "settlement" talks, and such settlement talks will change the administration of Kashmir from the current model. Ok, then, so much for the atootness of the ang. Nothing further needs to be discussed.

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## TechLahore

gubbi said:


> Where? What countries?



Please refer to recent threads concerning Iran's statements and Azerbaijan's statements on this issue. Please look through OIC resolutions involving 50+ countries. 

I am waiting for you to say, "Oh the muslim countries don't count".  That seems to be argument of last resort taken by my Indian friends when discussing this issue. 



> Talking about 'plight', Kashmiris are the most pampered lot in India with self-serving pompous pinheads for leaders.



Wow. I have nothing to add. No, I won't post the videos of the cold blooded murder of Kashmiri women and children, of 650,000 troops controlling every aspect of life in one of the most militarized regions in the world. No need to. Your statement stands on its own merit as one of the more delusional I have heard on the subject.



> Anyway, Kashmiris dont actually have a choice.



They do have a choice. One that they have been exercising for 63 years and continue to exercise even today. And that choice is resistance.



> Seriously, make us a pitch - for discussion's sake - as to why Kashmir should join Pakistan (considering that Independence is not practically an option).



We are not writing the script for a 30 second ad commercial. I am shocked that you see an important issue in these terms. There is no "pitch" involved. This is a question about fundamental, inalienable human rights such as the right to self determination, dignity and freedom. 



> Talk about reality TechLahore, I would have appreciated you if you had not deleted Karan's post about the comparative casualty figures for J&K (an apparently restive region in India) and Pakistan (a country). A kneejerk reaction to the data by blaming 'foreign sponsored terrorism in Pakistan' (a phrase so ironic) speaks volumes about 'touch with reality'. For your country's better future, IMHO, you should've accepted this reality.



Would you have liked me to derail the thread instead by countering Karan's irrelevant WOT data with information concerning the various insurgencies currently going on in India? He reposted and excluded the irrelevant pieces which would have for sure derailed the thread and that post not only stands, I responded to it.

You may live in a fantasy land where intelligence agencies are noble and kind and as innocuous as Dopey the dwarf, but that just exposes your own delusions. If you think RAW has nothing to do with many attacks, over the years and currently, in Pakistan then you can resume your reading of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. To each their own reality.

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## Greater Pakistan

it does not need to be a pariah state..its already a pharoah state


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## Greater Pakistan

Being born in india like myself...having to move around in constant fear of your loved ones..your honour....i still remember how when i was a kid how when we had to live in ghetto areas of the city..always being discriminated by the of the hindu establishment in the area...we grew up idolising wasim akram and imran khan ...and i always remeber how we used to wish and pray pakistan team wins.....how when babri was demolished our hearts cried but we were helpless...i still remeber when we crossed the hindu areas the hate filled stares we used to get...the concept of secular india...haha???democratic india??...yes we found out democracy in gujrat..what democracy means..lol..
i still remeber the pakistan flag we used to keep at our home.....i still remeber how we used to wrap our coffins with the pak flag..Pakistan is the name of an ideology.....it will never die....Land of sons who lay under tanks ........PAKISTAN ZINDABAD


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## Greater Pakistan

India largest demo-(hypo)-cracy
If you dont care then why do you visit this forum?


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## Greater Pakistan

Shahadat hai matloob o maqsood e momin
Na maal e ghanimat na kishwar khushai


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## Omar1984

*An eight-year-old Kashmiri went out to play. He came back home dead​*
Sameer Rah was beaten by Indian paramilitaries and flung into a poison ivy bush. The hopes of 2007 seem a world away.

A few days back I travelled to Batamaloo neighbourhood in Srinagar, the capital city of Indian-controlled Kashmir. Coils of barbed wire blocked the desolate roads; thousands of Indian soldiers patrolled the streets to enforce a strict military curfew. I couldn't reach the man I wanted to meet and finally managed to speak to him on the phone.

On 2 August Fayaz Rah, a 39-year-old fruit vendor from Batamaloo, had lunch with his wife and three children. Outside, Indian troops enforced the curfew. Yet the children would find a clearing or a courtyard to play cricket or imitate the adults and raise a slogan for Kashmir's independence from India. His youngest son, eight-year-old Sameer, took two rupees for pocket money from his father and stepped out to join his friends near his uncle's house.

*Young Sameer walked into a lane and impulsively shouted a few slogans for Kashmir's independence. He didn't realise a group of Indian paramilitaries was around. They caught the eight-year-old and beat him with bamboo sticks, some blows striking his head. They then threw the boy into a clump of poison ivy bushes, but a crowd gathered. The paramilitaries called a police truck, which drove Sameer to the nearby hospital. Meanwhile, police and paramilitaries teargassed the crowd.*

"Someone told me that a child has been killed," said Fayaz. He called a friend in the local police and mentioned that his son, who had left home wearing a yellow T-shirt, had not returned. His friend arrived at his door with an ambulance. "I saw my boy on the ventilator," Fayaz sighed. Doctors tried for hours to revive him, but couldn't save Sameer. *"There is no justice in Kashmir," Fayaz told me*. "Now the police claim my son died in a stampede."

It is getting harder to keep track of the deaths. In recent years, the hot guerrilla war over the region that began in 1990 first gave way to a cold peace, then, in the past two years, waves of mass protests. The summer of 2008 saw the biggest demonstrations for Kashmir's independence from India in two decades; they were put down by force, with 60 deaths and more than 500 injuries. In the past three months, Indian forces have killed 106 Kashmiri protesters and bystanders, mostly teenagers.

*The current fighting broke out as a protest against the killing of a 17-year-old student, Tufail Mattoo, in Srinagar. He was returning home from tuition and was hit by a teargas shell the police fired to disperse a crowd that had gathered to protest at another death. The situation has produced a Palestinian-style intifada in which young boys battle Indian troops with stones, and the soldiers shoot to kill.*

*India, meanwhile, continues to garrison half a million soldiers in Kashmir, nearly three times the number of American troops in Iraq at the peak of the occupation. India's half-century-old Armed Forces Special Powers Act, which was extended to Kashmir in 1990, gives troops the legal authority to shoot any person they suspect of being a threat, and guarantees immunity from prosecution. To bring a soldier before a civilian court requires the permission of India's home ministry; more than 400 such cases are still waiting for it.*

In the absence of justice, or any progress in the negotiations between India and Pakistan over the region's future, despair in Kashmir has grown. Walls all over the region are painted with slogans: *We Want Freedom! India, Go Back! Protesters are killed, and with every death more protests follow. The number of injured is believed to have risen to more than 1,000.*

Hospitals have been facing a serious shortage of medicines and the impossibility of conducting various medical tests that depend on private pharmacies and medical facilities. Many doctors aren't able to reach hospitals. Over the weekend Dr Bashir Chapoo, a senior eye surgeon, told me that the troops hadn't let him travel to his hospital in central Srinagar for more than a week. Seventeen of his patients had pellets stuck in their eyes. I called him yesterday. "I am still stuck at home. Most of my patients have left the hospital now. I have no idea where they are," Dr Chapoo said. Two had already lost their eyesight.

The military curfew continues with a few hours break once a week. The usual bustle of Kashmiri mornings has been replaced by an eerie silence; my street belongs to stray dogs and chirping birds. *The morning papers stopped publishing after the troops attacked the newsagents.* It is a world away from the hopeful spring of 2007, when back-channel talks between Indian and Pakistan diplomats &#8211; encouraged by Manmohan Singh, India's prime minister, and Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan's president &#8211; seemed to be close to bearing fruit. The solution they had agreed on would have resulted in a largely autonomous Kashmir with soft borders between the Indian- and Pakistani-controlled regions, and the gradual demilitarisation of Kashmir. But the talks lost steam when Musharraf lost power, and broke down after the 2008 attacks on Mumbai, orchestrated by Pakistani militants.

Mirwaiz Umar Farooq &#8211; head of the All Parties Hurriyat (Freedom) Conference, a coalition of separatist groups &#8211; championed the peace talks without any results. But now such moderates find themselves marginalised. *The influence of the separatist hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani has risen; he is now viewed as the most substantial powerbroker in the region. *The only lull in the recent protests occurred when he appealed to the protesters to stay home.

After several high-profile meetings last week, Singh's government rejected even moderate demands such as repealing the Armed Forces Special Powers Act &#8211; even though a committee set up by Singh four years ago recommended doing so. Scaling back troops from residential areas wasn't even discussed.


The Indian government did, however, despatch a delegation of parliamentarians to Kashmir for a fact-finding mission. The group arrived at Geelani's Srinagar home on Monday afternoon, accompanied by scores of television crews. *The Kashmiri leader enumerated his preconditions for peace talks: New Delhi should accept Kashmir as a dispute, free Kashmiri political prisoners, and withdraw its troops. Soldiers guilty of civilian killings must be punished, and their blanket protection withdrawn. India is not willing to concede any of these demands,* but the meeting provides at least a sliver of hope that the conversations so close to producing results three years ago might begin again.

What the Singh government does next will be its big test. Various analysts and political figures have suggested unconditional, result-oriented talks with the Kashmiris and a revival of the dialogue with Pakistan. It may well be the only way to save Kashmir &#8211; and India itself &#8211; from future calamities.


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## Greater Pakistan

They did live with us rather under us for a thousand years..their anger is understandable ...lol


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## shekhar

and pakistan is very good state
no human right violation 
equal right to girls no girls school demolished 
no drone attack by other nation
no terrorism related incident
no bomb blast
economically booming country
very good think tank (zaid hamid)
oh god pakistani are so lucky to be born in pakistan

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## arun

You forgot to mention:

No discrimination against minorities, certainly not officially enshrined in constitution.

It is funny how people are willing to take the support of anyone, no matter what they support.


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## Undivided Kashmir

PakShaheen79 said:


> What a big leap by India. Freeing young kids who were jailed for legitimate right of protesting against occupation.



All the people have the right to protest in an non-voilent way, when those idiots start throwing stones and rocks it becomes voilent.

Voilent protests are not acceptable and those have to be crushed.


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## Contrarian

Not all Israel does is bad. I am an advocate of using a heavy hand when things get out of control. There is no reason why separatists both in Kashmir and *** should not be assassinated.
Let them fear the Indian state instead of openly advocating what is anathema to us.


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## Tuahaa

You think hanging signs up next to the embassy will free them?


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## Leviza

Undivided Kashmir said:


> All the people have the right to protest in an non-voilent way, when those idiots start throwing stones and rocks it becomes voilent.
> 
> Voilent protests are not acceptable and those have to be crushed.



where were you when hindus killed more then 2000 muslims on babri Masjid

Why did your gov and state actors allowed that killings?????


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## Greater Pakistan

and pakistan is very good state...no its the best ...right its good you accepted this fact
no human right violation.....yes our rights are safe ...so our our mosques 
equal right to girls no girls school demolished...yes there honour is safe here from your drunk raping saffaron mobs 
no drone attack by other nation.....yes....if you want we can start drone attacks on your country??....like some??..or should i say surgical strikes??
no terrorism related incident....what??isnt RAW doing something....why??? 
no bomb blast....yes no bomb blast that RAW does true true
economically booming country....yes world largest growing economy with largest starving population after africa..but who am i to judge..hmm 
very good think tank (zaid hamid)...you listen to him?i think you dint like the red fort idea...but oh well who am i to judge
oh god pakistani are so lucky to be born in pakistan ..you are right.......YES WE ARE 
LONG LIVE PAKISTAN
PAKISTAN ZINDABAD


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## worldpeace

Pakistan's only good doing is defence.pk and songs.pk 
bothe the site is very popular in India
other than that they are doing only evil


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## Greater Pakistan

and if you dont like pakistan please dont join our forums...thank you


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## Greater Pakistan

or should i say infest our forums?


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## hecj

Greater Pakistan said:


> and pakistan is very good state...no its the best ...right its good you accepted this fact
> no human right violation.....yes our rights are safe ...so our our mosques
> equal right to girls no girls school demolished...yes there honour is safe here from your drunk raping saffaron mobs
> no drone attack by other nation.....yes....if you want we can start drone attacks on your country??....like some??..or should i say surgical strikes??
> no terrorism related incident....what??isnt RAW doing something....why???
> no bomb blast....yes no bomb blast that RAW does true true
> economically booming country....yes world largest growing economy with largest starving population after africa..but who am i to judge..hmm
> very good think tank (zaid hamid)...you listen to him?i think you dint like the red fort idea...but oh well who am i to judge
> oh god pakistani are so lucky to be born in pakistan ..you are right.......YES WE ARE
> LONG LIVE PAKISTAN
> PAKISTAN ZINDABAD


very good thinking.

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## Greater Pakistan

I know no need to tell


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## Greater Pakistan

you should also adopt it if you like it so much.


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## kak1978

somebozo said:


> IOK saga, CWG pressure and Ayodha verdict...when sh1t happens..its always a lot of it..!



Ayodhya verdict check. Calm on the streets.


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## Greater Pakistan

If you think an upside down flag is insult.....then what do you say about this


:















Well this also seems upside down...hmmm....








Is this upside down....???









What do people want in worlds largest demo(hypo)cracy?

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## gubbi

syedtalha said:


>



Forgive me my ignorance, but what is the significance of this 6-pointed star on what appears to be the Pakistani flag? (Pakistan's flag has 5 pointed star, right?)


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## Greater Pakistan

Why should i forgive your ignorance?i should show you exactly what pakistan means..

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## gubbi

Greater Pakistan said:


> Why should i forgive your ignorance?i should show you exactly what pakistan means..



Dude, I asked a specific question. What does that 6-pointed star mean on what appears to be a Pakistani flag. Reply if you know the answer, am not interested in your rhetorics.


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## Bhairava

Greater Pakistan said:


> and pakistan is very good state...no its the best ...right its good you accepted this fact
> no human right violation.....yes our rights are safe ...so our our mosques
> equal right to girls no girls school demolished...yes there honour is safe here from your drunk raping saffaron mobs
> no drone attack by other nation.....yes....if you want we can start drone attacks on your country??....like some??..or should i say surgical strikes??
> no terrorism related incident....what??isnt RAW doing something....why???
> no bomb blast....yes no bomb blast that RAW does true true
> economically booming country....yes world largest growing economy with largest starving population after africa..but who am i to judge..hmm
> very good think tank (zaid hamid)...you listen to him?i think you dint like the red fort idea...but oh well who am i to judge
> oh god pakistani are so lucky to be born in pakistan ..you are right.......YES WE ARE
> LONG LIVE PAKISTAN
> PAKISTAN ZINDABAD









Too much is bad for health.

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## Greater Pakistan

Im not sitting here to answer your questions,
if youre not interested in my rehtorics please leave this forum.thank you


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## Tuahaa

Gounder said:


> Too much is bad for health.



You troll we troll. Now drink up!


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## Leviza

ONE THING PEOPLE OF KASHMIR NEED TO KNOW THAT WE PAKISTANIES I ALWAYS WITH THEM , MEDIA COVER THIS OR NOT BUT KASHMIR IS IN OUR BLOOD AND ITS A PART OF PAKISTAN

PAKISTANIES ALWAYS BACKED KASHMIR FREEDOM MOVEMENT AND WE WILL ALWAYS DO AT ALL COST

KASHMIR BANAY GA PAKISTAN........

MAYBE INDIANS ON THIS FORUM SAY ANYTHING ABOUT KASHMIR AND PAKISTAN BUT THE REALITY IS THAT WE ARE ALWAYS WITH OUR MUSLISM BROTHERS IN KASHMIR....

*DONT YOU WORRY MY BROTHERS KASHMIR WILL GET ITS FREEDOM SOON COZ WE PAKISTANI NATION NEVER LEAVE YOU GUYS ALONE MAYBE SOME TIME YOU FEEL WE ARE NOT COZ MAYBE WE ARE WEAK THIS TIME, MAYBE WE HAVE HARD TIME OURSELVES BUT TIME WILL CHANGE AND WE WILL FIGHT WITH YOU ON ALL FRONTS AND THEN THESE INDIANS WILL KNOW WHAT THEY WERE PLAYING WITH FROM SO MANY YEARS....*


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## Mirza Jatt

Leviza said:


> ONE THING PEOPLE OF KASHMIR NEED TO KNOW THAT WE PAKISTANIES I ALWAYS WITH THEM , MEDIA COVER THIS OR NOT BUT KASHMIR IS IN OUR BLOOD AND ITS A PART OF PAKISTAN
> 
> PAKISTANIES ALWAYS BACKED KASHMIR FREEDOM MOVEMENT AND WE WILL ALWAYS DO AT ALL COST
> 
> KASHMIR BANAY GA PAKISTAN........
> 
> MAYBE INDIANS ON THIS FORUM SAY ANYTHING ABOUT KASHMIR AND PAKISTAN BUT THE REALITY IS THAT WE ARE ALWAYS WITH OUR MUSLISM BROTHERS IN KASHMIR....
> 
> *DONT YOU WORRY MY BROTHERS KASHMIR WILL GET ITS FREEDOM SOON COZ WE PAKISTANI NATION NEVER LEAVE YOU GUYS ALONE MAYBE SOME TIME YOU FEEL WE ARE NOT COZ MAYBE WE ARE WEAK THIS TIME, MAYBE WE HAVE HARD TIME OURSELVES BUT TIME WILL CHANGE AND WE WILL FIGHT WITH YOU ON ALL FRONTS AND THEN THESE INDIANS WILL KNOW WHAT THEY WERE PLAYING WITH FROM SO MANY YEARS....*



the anti India elements in kashmir valley have been shouting these for years..and now when they were not successful, you have started it on this forum..by using big fonts..lol...carry on. 

and thanks for loving our kashmir

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## Leviza

Indian Jatt said:


> the anti India elements in kashmir valley have been shouting these for years..and now when they were not successful, you have started it on this forum..by using big fonts..lol...carry on.
> 
> and thanks for loving our kashmir



btw i dont want to comment on your post as its useless 

yes i do love kashmir and next time dont forgot to take Pakistani visa before going to kashmir

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## gubbi

Greater Pakistan said:


> Im not sitting here to answer your questions,
> if youre not interested in my rehtorics please leave this forum.thank you



Who asked you, btw. I asked a legit question, and was directed towards knowledgeable people, not ignoramuses. Go make love to yourself. Thanks.

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## Mirza Jatt

Leviza said:


> btw i dont want to comment on your post as its useless



oh god ! 



> yes i do love kashmir and next time dont forgot to take Pakistani visa before going to kashmir



next time ?? lol..just returned from a 10 days trip from kashmir and I there I heard, few pakistani visa applications have been rejected by India to come to kashmir.

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## hecj

Leviza said:


> btw i dont want to comment on your post as its useless
> 
> yes i do love kashmir and next time dont forgot to take Pakistani visa before going to kashmir





> dont forgot to take Pakistani visa before going to kashmir



ok sir if u satisfy ur fantasies with this,then ok.
this kashmir policy have ruined u,u tried ,u lost half country.now in papers sometimes we read balkanization of pakistan,civil war in pakistan.so leviza ji be prepare ur own states which u have now atleast.even all the world is after u.


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## karan.1970

Big encounter.. Seems like its still on

DAWN.COM | World | Eight militants killed in battles in Indian Kashmir

SRINAGAR: Indian security forces killed eight militants on Friday in two separate gunbattles in Indian Kashmir, an army spokesman said, adding some of them were trying to enter the Indian territory from neigbouring Pakistan.

Indian army spokesman Vineet Sood told Reuters a policeman was also killed in one of the gun battles.

The clashes occurred amid mounting protests against New Delhi's rule in the disputed Himalayan region, which has been in a siege-like state of strikes, protests and curfew for months.

India and Pakistan both claim Kashmir while ruling it in parts.

More than 100 people have been killed and scores arrested in protests since June -- among the biggest since an armed separatist rebellion broke out in Kashmir in 1989.

Five militants were killed in the north of Kashmir as they tried to cross into the Indian side from Pakistani territory, while three militants and the policeman were killed in a battle in the Ganderbal area on the outskirts of Srinagar.

Sood said reports indicated exchanges of fire were continuing at both places.

India's federal government is trying hard to defuse the tension in the region and on Wednesday decided to free jailed protesters and reduce the number of checkpoints in the main city Srinagar as part of a peace move.

India has been concerned that the flare-up in Kashmir could affect its international image days ahead of the the Commonwealth Games, which open in New Delhi this weekend.
New Delhi has repeatedly accused Pakistan of arming, training and sending militants to its part of Kashmir, a charge Islamabad denies.

India's security officials say militants based in Pakistan have stepped up efforts to infiltrate into Indian Kashmir before winter snow blocks the Himalayan mountain passes.

The army has continued to focus on conducting relentless counter infiltration operations on the Line of Control (LoC) as well as elimination of terrorists in the hinterland, the
Indian army said in a statement.


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## karan.1970

Surprisingly the tone used by DAWN is extremely anti insurgents. Mostly such encounters in India are given a fake tinge by the Pakistani media. Unlike this time around.. hmm...


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## Prometheus

RIP the Freedom Fighters from Pakistan.

Policeman from Kashmir was unlucky............he should have supported their cause


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## Prometheus

karan.1970 said:


> Surprisingly the tone used by DAWN is extremely anti insurgents. Mostly such encounters in India are given a fake tinge by the Pakistani media. Unlike this time around.. hmm...



I think DAWN is RAW sponsored propaganda agency.

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## ISRO Go!

R.I.P PAKISTANI FREEDOM FIGHTER..
U HAVE GIVEN UR LIFE TO UR NATION...
ALLAH BLESS UR SOUL
U'LL GO TO HEAVEN


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## Archie

^^^^^^
Which drugs are u guys inhaling


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## Prometheus

Archie said:


> ^^^^^^
> Which drugs are u guys inhaling



ram ram tau...................ajj do peg jayeda lag gaye

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## Greater Pakistan

If you dont like pakistan please dont come here to give us your bull ****.good bye


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## Prometheus

Leviza said:


> ONE THING PEOPLE OF KASHMIR NEED TO KNOW THAT WE PAKISTANIES I ALWAYS WITH THEM , MEDIA COVER THIS OR NOT BUT KASHMIR IS IN OUR BLOOD AND ITS A PART OF PAKISTAN
> 
> PAKISTANIES ALWAYS BACKED KASHMIR FREEDOM MOVEMENT AND WE WILL ALWAYS DO AT ALL COST
> 
> *KASHMIR BANAY GA PAKISTAN........*
> 
> MAYBE INDIANS ON THIS FORUM SAY ANYTHING ABOUT KASHMIR AND PAKISTAN BUT THE REALITY IS THAT WE ARE ALWAYS WITH OUR MUSLISM BROTHERS IN KASHMIR....
> 
> *DONT YOU WORRY MY BROTHERS KASHMIR WILL GET ITS FREEDOM SOON COZ WE PAKISTANI NATION NEVER LEAVE YOU GUYS ALONE MAYBE SOME TIME YOU FEEL WE ARE NOT COZ MAYBE WE ARE WEAK THIS TIME, MAYBE WE HAVE HARD TIME OURSELVES BUT TIME WILL CHANGE AND WE WILL FIGHT WITH YOU ON ALL FRONTS AND THEN THESE INDIANS WILL KNOW WHAT THEY WERE PLAYING WITH FROM SO MANY YEARS....*



just out of curiosity............If Kashmir Banega Pakistan ......Toh Pakistan kya Banega????


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## Frank Martin

Yesterday it was a Cease fire violation and today an encounter..Interesting..Atleast nobody will not say that this is just another crap news from Indian Media


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## faisaljaffery

Well our kashmiri brothers should not worry about Pakistani Media since there are some black sheeps in our media who are working against Pakistan. But let me assure you that heart of each and every Pakistani beats with the hearts of their kashmiri brothers and sisters. And despite of a war situation and serious threats of suicide attacks (like those of yaum ul quds and yaum e Ali) Pakistanis and Kashmiris (in AJK) staged massive protests aginst Indian Government.


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## Greater Pakistan

> kashmir policy have ruined u,u tried ,u lost half country.now in papers sometimes we read balkanization of pakistan,civil war in pakistan.so leviza ji be prepare ur own states which u have now atleast.even all the world is after u.





*Nigah-e-mard-e momin se badal jaati hain taqdeerain
jo ho zok-e-yaqeen paida to kat jaati hain zanjeerain*

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## Avatar

@ Thread starter : 

Remember the eternal formula : J&K = India 

The government of India has given you every right to leave India and settle in any country as per your desire. Good luck.


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## SpArK

*More youths to be absorbed in government sector: Omar Abdullah*



*Describing unemployment in Jammu and Kashmir as the "biggest challenge", chief minister Omar Abdullah today said efforts were on to engage maximum number of youths in the government sector.*


"My government is endeavouring to engage more and more youths in the government sector besides working for expanding employment generation orbit as a whole," Omar said while responding to a question in the Legislative Council.

He said unemployment in the state was a big challenge and the legislature and government were equally concerned about it.

According to official figures, the state has over five lakh unemployed youths.

*"Government is keen to fill up the posts on fast track and provide job opportunities to the youth in the government sector. All departments have been directed to give priority to the process of referring vacant posts to the Public Service Commission (PSC) and Service Selection Recruitment Board (SSRB)," Omar said.*


The government had referred 1,888 gazetted posts to the PSC and the Commission has filled these vacancies besides clearing backlog of nearly 1,400 posts, he added.

Similarly, he said SSRB has made 14,611 selections as against the 10,993 posts referred to it, thus also clearing the backlogs.

*To a query, finance minister Abdul Rahim Rather said the government has created 20,000 new posts and was in the process of streamlining the recruitment process. All government departments have been directed to refer vacancies every January, he added*.


Enactment of Jammu and Kashmir Civil Services Decentralisation and Recruitment Act, 2010 would further improve the pace of recruitment process, he added.

Rather said the government was monitoring the functioning of recruitment agencies regularly and "it is due to this constant monitoring that a large number of vacancies have been made this year as compared to last year, which is exemplary," he claimed.


More youths to be absorbed in government sector: Omar Abdullah - India - DNA


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## Urbanized Greyhound

A step which should have been taken long ago....if we can use Indian army personnel to guard our economic installations in a place like Afghanistan ....endure terrorism and the death of even an ambassador in a different country....what the hell is keeping the GoI from launching a mass economic drive to generate jobs and employment in Kashmir ??? an Integral part of our nations ....rhetoric in the air should be matched by concrete action on the ground....if the UPA with the task masters like Chidambaram , P.Mukherjee can 
direct Omar to forcefully jumpstart the Economic development in the Valley.....it will go a long way in restoring the faith and confidence of the estranged Kashmiri youth in the Indian Democratic system.....


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## arihant

The thread starter has misquote the party. 

If anyone knows that even Mumbai kars don't give damn to Shiv Sena this was reflected in the case of My Name is Khan and I am not terrorist.

Anyway, thakre is also going to die I guess.


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## arihant

ASP007 said:


> Yesterday it was a Cease fire violation and today an encounter..Interesting..Atleast nobody will not say that this is just another crap news from Indian Media



For Indians.
Militants tried to broke the LOC and came here.
Pakistani rangers supported them through cover fire.
India fire back.

For Pakistanis.
They hear fire back from Indians.
They also fire back

For Neutral (If really)
Militants tried to cross border.
Indian Army finds them and try to shoot them.
Pakistan Rangers take it as cease fire violation and replies back.
Firing continuous until terrorist killed or go back.


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## Areesh

> Srinagar, Oct 01, KONS: Clashes and firing left half-a-dozen persons injured in Kashmir on Friday as a strict government curfew choked a Hurriyat (G) reprieve in strike, while mobs ripped off the railway track outside Srinagar and the government forces ransacked a number of open shops in retaliation.
> 
> 
> 
> Top separatist leaders Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Mirwaiz Umer Farooq and Agha Syed Hassan were held under house arrest, and Friday prayers could not be held at the central Jamia Masjid and numerous other mosques once more due to a total siege, while the police again seized newspapers published from Srinagar, preventing their circulation.
> 
> 
> 
> Authorities put Kashmir under a siege again today, sealing off streets and crossing in the summer capital and barring vehicular movement on inter-distract routes.
> 
> Children heading for schools in the morning due to a break in strike by the Hurriyat (G) were turned back by the forces deployed in the streets, and teachers too were barred from proceeding for work despite government assurances that their identity cards would be treated as curfew passes.
> 
> Clashes erupted in the Chattabal area of upper Srinagar as groups of youth defied curfew to take out a procession, which the police and the paramilitary men deployed in the streets barred, trying to break up the demonstration.
> 
> This prompted the protestors to retaliate with stone-pelting, leading to prolonged clashes which the forces gradually quelled by enforcing strict restrictions and confining people indoors.
> 
> *FIRING IN ISLAMABAD
> *Half-a-dozen persons were injured in the Malak Naag area of Islamabad when the police and the paramilitary forces opened fire on protestors who had turned violent on being attacked with cane charges and tear gas.
> 
> A large number of protestors had come into the streets chanting pro-freedom slogans after Friday prayers, but were blocked by the forces with cane-charges, enraging the former who retaliated with stone-pelting.
> 
> The forces then opened fire on the crowds, leaving several persons injured.
> 
> One f the injured, Nazir Ahmad Mir, had suffered gunshot wounds in the abdomen , and doctors at the local hospital sent to Srinagar for treatment because of his serious condition.
> 
> The violence spread to Laasibal and adjoining areas, and the clashes continued for some time.
> Reports said that the schools in the Mattan, Achabal, Dooru, Shangus, Verinag, Kokernag, Wailu, Qazigund and other areas functioned normally.
> 
> *RAIL TRACK UPROOTED
> *Angry mobs uprooted the railway track at Machoo on the outskirts of Srinagar, disrupting train services which had been resumed on a trial basis.
> 
> The police and the paramilitary men went into action against the mobs, breaking them up with cane-charges and tear gas.
> 
> The forces were reported to have assaulted a number of shops in the vicinity later, ransacking their goods.



Firing On Protestors, Valley Under Curfew Again


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## Frank Martin

He said Pakistan has forgotten the Kashmir..even if they forgot their own land they will not forget Kashmir..Lol


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## KS

Good news for me all around from yesterday - this one,Verdict and the sanctioned Leave in office...


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## Evil Flare

Avatar said:


> @ Thread starter :
> 
> Remember the eternal formula : J&K = India
> 
> The government of India has given you every right to leave India and settle in any country as per your desire. Good luck.



Why Kashmiris will leave their very own land for India's Desires ???


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## Bhairava

Tuahaa said:


> You troll we troll. Now drink up!



Buddy you can troll all you like,but atleast follow the high standards set by some senior trollers here. 

Look at post # 16 and you ll understand what I mean.


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## Greater Pakistan

Why are you so concerned about my health?


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## Greater Pakistan

Look at most 17# and 18# and you'll understand what i mean


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## Water Car Engineer

Greater Pakistan said:


> and pakistan is very good state...no its the best ...right its good you accepted this fact
> no human right violation.....yes our rights are safe ...so our our mosques
> equal right to girls no girls school demolished...yes there honour is safe here from your drunk raping saffaron mobs
> no drone attack by other nation.....yes....if you want we can start drone attacks on your country??....like some??..or should i say surgical strikes??
> no terrorism related incident....what??isnt RAW doing something....why???
> no bomb blast....yes no bomb blast that RAW does true true
> economically booming country....yes world largest growing economy with largest starving population after africa..but who am i to judge..hmm
> very good think tank (zaid hamid)...you listen to him?i think you dint like the red fort idea...but oh well who am i to judge
> oh god pakistani are so lucky to be born in pakistan ..you are right.......YES WE ARE
> LONG LIVE PAKISTAN
> PAKISTAN ZINDABAD


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## Omar1984

*Kashmiri journalist in hospital after police beating​*
BBC News, Srinagar

A prominent video journalist has been admitted to hospital in Srinagar in Indian-administered Kashmir after being severely beaten by police. 

Merajuddin, who works as a cameraman for APTN, was hit with a baton in the neck and fell unconscious. Police also beat his son and colleague, Omar Meraj. 

There have been a number of such attacks on local journalists recently.

The authorities have declared a curfew following violent anti-India protests in which scores have died since June.

The two journalists had been heading to the state assembly in Srinagar when they were stopped by police, who refused to let them pass despite their having curfew passes. 

When Merajuddin insisted on speaking to their officer, the policemen became angry and beat him.

The assault happened while Chief Minister Omar Abdullah was apologising in the assembly for the seizure of newspapers by the police in Srinagar on Friday morning. 

He told members the police had seized the newspapers without his knowledge. 

The media is under increasing pressure in the state.

One senior journalist, Sheikh Mushtaq, said: "We have never felt so insecure as now. We not only face a threat to our lives but are also humiliated off and on."


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## Pasban

_Zubair Ahmed, who was wounded by gunfire, is wheeled on a stretcher at a hospital in Srinagar on October 1, 2010._


_Paramilitary troops in Indian-administered Kashmir have opened fire on several Muslim worshippers as they were heading to a mosque for Friday Prayers. 
_

Police say one person was injured when they opened fire on stone-throwing demonstrators who defied a curfew in the southern parts of Kashmir. 

The families of the victims, however, say they were shot by Indian police while en route to the Friday Prayers in the predominantly Muslim region. 

A Press TV correspondent said several injured people were rushed to the hospital after scuffles with police in the disputed Himalayan valley. 

The developments come as authorities decided to extend the curfew on Friday, to prevent further protests after prayers. 

Meanwhile, key separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani has called for a 10-day protest across the Muslim-majority region. 

Kashmir has been in a siege-like state of strikes and curfew since June when a 17-year-old student was killed by police. More than 110 people have been killed over the past few months in protests, which are the biggest pro-independence rallies in decades. 

Amnesty International has recently called on India to take immediate steps to protect and respect human rights in Kashmir. 

&#8220;Security forces should use the minimum force necessary to defend themselves or others against an imminent threat of death or serious injury. They should not employ intentional lethal use of firearms except where such use is strictly unavoidable in order to protect life,&#8221; an Amnesty International statement said. 

JR/HGH/MMN

PressTV - Police attack worshippers in Kashmir


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## Omar1984

Here's the largest "secular" "democracy" at it again.


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## Prometheus

Srinagar: The Army has killed 42 militants during its counter-infiltration and counter-insurgency operations in Kashmir Valley in September, a defence spokesman said here on Saturday. 

"As many as 42 well-armed and trained, both local and foreign militants, have been eliminated in the ongoing counter-terrorism operations conducted by the Army in September," the spokesman said. 

He said a large cache of arms and ammunition has also been unearthed during this period. 

"In the successful encounters, a large quantity of war-like stores including assault rifles, pistols, rocket propelled grenades, hand grenades, improvised explosive device (IED) equipment, detonators, mines and sophisticated communication equipment have been seized by the Army," the spokesman said. 

He said this is the most successful operation in recent years. 

"Vigilant troops along the LoC have intercepted, engaged and eliminated 16 militants and while conducting joint operations with the Special Operations group of state police in the hinterland, 26 militants were killed," he said, adding the synergy between the security forces has resulted in these result oriented encounters. 42 militants killed by Army in Kashmir in September

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## TheWarriorIndian

. Indian Army is Just going Rogue, How Could the Indian Army Shoot down an Innocent,Peaceful freedom Fighter who has just 1kg RDX, AK-47 and a Few rounds of Bullets With him??? Really Its a Human Right Violation I say.... ... Well Done Indian Army, Bring those B@strds Down

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## RamGorur

42 Freedom Fighters have been freed from their earthly prison. 

Job well done.

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## StingRoy

^^ The thread title does not match the news headline. Intentional?

Looks like the militants are trying to capitalize on the situation in Kashmir just as what the Army predicted. Good job keeping them at bay.

Another report on Hindu.
*42 militants killed in Kashmir in September*

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## S_O_C_O_M

*Moosvi lauds Quraishi's statement on OSJK ​* 
Jammu & Kashmir 
Written by KMS 
Friday, 01 October 2010 22:08 







Srinagar, October 01, 2010: Senior APHC leader and President of Anjuman-e-Shari Shian, Agha Syed Hassan Al-Moosvi, has lauded the statement of Foreign Minister of Pakistan, Shah Mehmood Qurashi on Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK) during his speech in the United Nations and termed it in line with the aspirations of the Kashmiri people.

Agha Syed Hassan Al-Moosvi, in a statement issued in Srinagar, said that the so-called elections in the occupied territory held by the authorities could not be a substitute to Kashmiris right of self-determination. He appreciated the role of people of Kashmir belonging to every shade of life in the ongoing struggle. Kashmiris have given matchless sacrifices for the just cause. Their sacrifices will not be allowed to go waste, he added. 


The APHC leader said that the Kashmiri people had not sacrificed their lives for economic packages but for their inalienable right. Commenting on Allahabad High Courts verdict regarding Babri Mosque, Agha Syed Hassan AL-Moosvi termed the decision biased and against the norms of righteousness and justice.

The Jammu and Kashmir Peoples Movement (JKPM), a constituent of the All Parties Hurriyet Conference (APHC), has hailed the statement of Foreign Minister of Pakistan, Shah Mahmood Qurashi, on Kashmir which he made during his speech in the United Nations.

The Chairman of Jammu and Kashmir Peoples Movement (JKPM), Ghulam Ahmed Mir, in a statement issued in Srinagar, said that Pakistan had always extended its moral, diplomatic and political support to the Kashmir cause. He said that the resolutions passed by the United Nations formed the basis for peaceful and permanent resolution of the Kashmir dispute in accordance with the aspirations of the people of Jammu and Kashmir.

The JKPM Chairman rejected the statement of Indian Foreign Minister, S M Krishna in which he said that after elections there was no justification for demanding plebiscite in the occupied territory. Ghulam Ahmed Mir said that the election dramas staged by India in the territory could not be substitute to the Kashmiris right to self-determination.


He said that the Kashmiri people had never accepted illegal occupation of their motherland by India and they had been making supreme sacrifices to take the freedom movement to its logical conclusion.

Urging New Delhi to shun its rigid attitude towards Kashmir and accept its disputed status, he said that hundred days of peaceful agitation by the people of the territory should have opened its eyes. India has completely failed to quell the peaceful struggle of the people even after killing more than one hundred and ten innocent Kashmiris, he maintained.

Back on streets of Srinagar, the Indian forces have arrested a pesh imam twice in last 10 days in Kupwara district for objecting to the highhandedness of Indian troops and police against innocent people. The family sources said that 70-year-old, Ghulam Mohiuddin Peer, son of Haji Abdul Khaliq was arrested during a night raid on September 18 and lodged at district Jail Kupwara. Ghulam Mohiuddin Peer, a former revenue official, was bailed out by a local court after five days. However, as soon as he stepped outside the jail, he was re-arrested and fresh cases were slapped against him. Family, however, pleaded his innocence and termed charges against him as fabricated and fictitious.


Unfolding the events leading to her husbands arrest, Amina Begum said that on September 14, a vehicle, carrying a pregnant woman, passed through the village where Special Operations Group (SOG) of police and Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) had enforced tough restrictions to prevent protests following the killing of 18 people by Indian police and troops across the Valley.

The SOG and CRPF men intercepted the vehicle and thrashed the male inmates. They also misbehaved with the pregnant woman. My husband and some locals tried to intervene and ensure the safety of the patient. However, the SOG and CRPF personnel burst teargas shells and fired in air to disperse them, she added.

Next day, Amina said, her husband, who is also pesh imam of Jamia Masjid, offered prayers on road seeking peace and prosperity for the people. On the night of September 18, a party of troops and SOG stormed the village. They broke windowpanes of our houses and ransacked the household goods. After vandalizing property, they bundled my husband, son and a guest in a police van, she said. My husband is innocent and is being punished for raising voice against atrocities, she added.

Moosvi lauds Quraishi's statement on OSJK


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## karan.1970

@Promo

Was it you or your did thread title get changed?


Anyway, good job IA. Its a war of attrition and the attrition ratio looks good.


----------



## S_O_C_O_M

*Geelani condemns Indian brutality with a student​*
TopNews 
Written by KMS 
Friday, 01 October 2010 22:04 






Srinagar, October 01, 2010: The Chairman of All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC), Syed Ali Shah Geelani has condenmed the Indian brutality against a Kashmiri student, who had lost his eye, when an Indian army personal hit a student with marble on his face.

In result, the student from Srinagar had lost his eye. He was leaving home early morning for school, when caught up by Indian forces personals. Despite showing his permit card, the personnal hit him on his face with the marble, saying "follow gillani calander".

Syed Ali Shah Geelani in a statement issued in Srinagar said that the incident reflected the serious situation in the Valley. He said that the Indian troops were killing innocent Kashmiri people especially youth and students. 


Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that the Indian government and the occupied authorities had waged a war against the people of Jammu and Kashmir to suppress the ongoing liberation movement in the territory.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani maintained that the ongoing liberation movement would continue despite all odds till the people of Kashmir achieved the right of self-determination guaranteed to them by the United Nations and the international community.

He said that the puppet Chief Minister, Umar Abdullah couldnt remain in Jammu and Kashmir even for a minute in absence of the troopers. Gilani said, Since 1995, there had been 18 attempts on my life but due to Gods grace, I remained unharmed every time.

The Executive Director of Kashmir Centre London, Professor Nazir Ahmed Shawl while commenting on the address of Indian Foreign Minister, S M Krishna at the United Nations, has termed it a sterile moribund rhetoric. Professor Shawl in a statement in London said, Jammu and Kashmir is the UN mandated disputed territory whose political future is yet to be ascertained. Krishnas reference to Kashmir as an integral part of India is contrary to the United Nations record. It is also contrary to various promises and commitments made by the Indian leadership to the people of Jammu and Kashmir, in different international Fora and also on the floor of Indian parliament, he said.


The Executive Director stated that former Indian Prime Minister, Nehrus words were still ringing and echoing when he said, We had given our pledge to the people of Kashmir and subsequently to the United Nations; we stood by it and we stand by it today. Let the people of Kashmir decide.

Professor Shawl maintained that the elections which had been referred as plebiscite by Krishna had simply been an insult to the free will of Kashmiri people and these elections had always been manipulated and massively rigged. He further pointed out that even Omar Abdullah, the puppet Chief Minister of the occupied territory in his recent speech at Ganderbal contradicted Krishna when he said that the elections had nothing to do with the future of Kashmir.

He deplored that Indian Foreign Minister failed to acknowledge the state terrorism unleashed by Indian forces in OSJK. He urged the political leadership of India to shun ostrich approach to the ground realities in the occupied territory. The slogan to right to self-determination which reverberates in Kashmir needs to be heeded to and a political will for peaceful resolution of the Kashmir dispute needs to be demonstrated, he added.


The Chairman of Kashmir Centre Brussels, Barrister Abdul Majeed Tramboo, while rejecting Indian Foreign Minister, S M Krishnas statement in the United Nations that plebiscite is held in Jammu and Kashmir after every five years, has said that the Kashmiri people have been struggling for securing their right of self-determination and not for elections or other packages.

Barrister Tramboo in a statement said that if elections were substitute to right of self-determination, Kashmiris would not raise slogans in favour of freedom in streets and roads of the occupied territory. He said that the statement of the Indian foreign minister was a failed attempt to hoodwink the international community. He said that the people of Kashmir would continue their struggle till securing their birthright to self-determination and would not tolerate any hurdle in their way.

Referring to the partial decision of an Indian court in Babri Mosque case, Barrister Abdul Majeed Tramboo termed it unjust.

Geelani condemns Indian brutality with a student


----------



## Multani

karan.1970 said:


> @Promo
> 
> Was it you or your did thread title get changed?
> 
> 
> Anyway, good job IA. Its a war of attrition and the attrition ratio looks good.



attrition ratio against its own people? what a blood thirsty army


----------



## karan.1970

Multani said:


> attrition ratio against its own people?



No. Against the people from Pakistani part of Kashmir, armed and trained by our dear neighbour and sent in to create trouble.

They are not our people unless you agree to GoI's POV about Pakistan illegally occupying Indian territory in P OK . Then those folks become our citizens.

Is that what you are refering to

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## TheInvisible

I think India should open a counter in the border for those who want direct visa to Heaven...

It would make the task easy for both the governments...

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## StingRoy

Multani said:


> attrition ratio against its own people? what a blood thirsty army



No... against cross-border saints.

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## Prometheus

karan.1970 said:


> @Promo
> 
> Was it you or your did thread title get changed?
> 
> 
> Anyway, good job IA. Its a war of attrition and the attrition ratio looks good.



arey bhai.............I didnt wanted to disturb the mods..........so I did it myself

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## arihant

Prometheus said:


> arey bhai.............I didnt wanted to disturb the mods..........so I did it myself



correct. Kudos.

I remember when title was "Indian Army killed Terrorist" was changed "Massacre of Indian Army on Kashmiris".

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## arihant

*I think picture itself says the truth.*


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## Tuahaa

Defend harder, it's not working!

PS. Poor student.


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## arihant

http://greaterkashmir.com/news/2010/Sep/30/jud-holds-rally-in-muzaffarabad-15.asp

*Muzaffarabad, Sept 29: *The Jamaat ud Dawa (JuD) on Wednesday said if the world did not take notice of the ongoing repression in Kashmir, no power on earth could stop Kashmiris from reverting to the armed struggle.

&#8220;If the world does not take notice of the repression unleashed at Kashmiris, no power on earth can stop us from reverting to the armed struggle,&#8221; said Amir Hamza, a JuD leader.

*&#8220;It&#8217;s the last chance for the international community to settle Kashmir issue peacefully. If the armed struggle begins again, it will spill beyond the borders of Kashmir,&#8221; Hamza said while addressing a conference held under the aegis of Tehreek-e-Azadi-e-Kashmir (TAK) an organization launched by JuD Pakistan &#8220;to provide a platform to all political and religious parties campaigning for Kashmir movement.&#8221;*

The first such conference _was held _in the lakeside city of Mirpur on Monday. On the same afternoon, the participants drove to _Kotli where a similar event was held._

On Tuesday, _the rally reached Rawalakot _where a conference was held before noon. From there it _traveled to Bagh to hold a conference _in the afternoon.

*&#8220;Let it be clear that if Kashmir is not freed through peaceful means, then there will be&#8230;,&#8221; he said.*

The crowd which _comprised JuD cadres _from different parts of Pakistan shouted vociferous pro-freedom slogans during the speeches by leaders from mostly religious parties and groups.
Abdur Rehman Makki, another senior JuD leader, said the purpose behind launching the caravan was to make the government of Pakistan realize its responsibilities regarding Kashmir.

He asked the international community, particularly the United Nations, to get the resolutions on Kashmir implemented for the sake of its own credibility.

*He also asked India to read the writing on the wall in order to prevent its own &#8220;disintegration.&#8221;*

Maulana Shahabuddin Madni, chief of Jamiat Ahle Hadith AJK, said, &#8220;Kashmir has turned into a living hell but the _time is not far when India will have to surrender before the unflinching determination of Kashmiris.&#8221;_

Tehreek-e-Jafria AJK leader Mufti Kifayat Hussain Naqvi congratulated the TAK for organizing a caravan to express support and solidarity with Kashmiris.

The TAK chairman Saifullah Mansoor said: &#8220;The disappointing role of the government and a few dozen Pakistani politicians apart, 180 million Pakistanis support Kashmiris.&#8221;

&#8220;You announce any programme,Pakistanis will follow it. *They will offer their money and children for Kashmir*,&#8221; he said to the APHC leaders, sitting on the stage.

Others who spoke on the occasion included APHC AJK chapter leaders Syed Yousaf Nasim and Ghulam Mohammad Safi, JuD AJK chapter chief Abdul Aziz Alvi, Jamaat-e-Islami AJK leader Shaikh Aqeel ur Rehman, JKLF (Yasin) leader Rafiq Dar, Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam AJK leader Mahmoodul Hassan Ashraf, Rana Shamshad Salfi, Saifullah Khalid and Abdul Aziz Madni.


----------



## arihant

PressTV - Anti-India rally in Pakistani Kashmir

Thousands in Pakistani-administered Kashmir have taken to the streets, condemning Indian "brutalities" and calling for independence.

*A crowd of around 2,500 people shouted "We want freedom" as they arrived in Muzaffarabad, the capital of Pakistan-administered Kashmir on Wednesday, AFP reported.*

The Tehreek-e-Azadi-e-Kashmir (TAK) coalition has been organizing two days of rallies in the part of Kashmir administered by Pakistan and plans to hold a rally in the Pakistani capital of Islamabad later Wednesday.

*"The ongoing freedom movement will transcend beyond the boundaries of Kashmir if the international community fails to take notice of Indian brutalities against this peaceful struggle," Abdur Rehman Makki, leader of the Jamaat-ud-Dawa movement said.*

Kashmir has been the scene of violent clashes on an almost daily basis. More than 100 Kashmiri protesters have lost their lives at the hands of Indian troops since the current unrest erupted back in June.

India recently offered a proposal for talks to resolve the Kashmiri problem but Kashmiri protest leaders rejected the offer, saying the proposals are aimed at deceiving the international community.

In response to the Indian offer, Kashmiri protest leader, Syed Ali Shah Geelani said on Saturday, "We demand to resolve the Kashmir issue through tripartite talks in which Kashmiris have a central role.&#8221;

India has also placed key Kashmiri leaders under house arrest.

---

Although it was does Anti India rally but they forget the mention in a para which is quite confusing.


----------



## arihant

Everything seems proved what Indian Govt. said.

*JuD is not banned in Pakistan.
It holds rally too.
It gathers people too.
It is non profit organization to help poor. Doesn't have share in Kashmir.*

Now leave the facts behind what he said yesterday itself prove what India is saying from years.

JUD is always affiliated to Kashmir. Indeed they said " face the arm struggle again". This prove that they were party to 1990's conflict too. 

Open war declared by chief of JuD. This were same leader under the over of LeT until pakistan was force to ban (just name banned)

*"India should stop terrorism in occupied Kashmir otherwise 26/11 may occur again," a banner carried by the protesters said.*

This prove that indeed 26/11 has something to do with Jamat ud Dawa. This prove that at least RAW may fail to know the plot but doesn't failed to reveal the culprits.


----------



## arihant

Tuahaa said:


> Defend harder, it's not working!
> 
> PS. Poor student.



*You didn't answered by view. You just defer it with your last point. *


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## karan.1970

arihant said:


> *You didn't answered by view. You just defer it with your last point. *



As SMC says.. Diversion ...


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## Prometheus

How dare evil Bharati army hit the poor Kashmir valley boy with a marble????



> Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that the Indian government and the occupied authorities had waged a war against the people of Jammu and Kashmir to suppress the ongoing liberation movement in the territory.



isnt he the same person who said he want Kashmir to be in Pakistan..............I wonder how it is liberation??????


----------



## karan.1970

Prometheus said:


> How dare evil Bharati army hit the poor Kashmir valley boy with a marble????
> 
> 
> 
> isnt he the same person who said he want Kashmir to be in Pakistan..............I wonder how it is liberation??????




May be liberation for him from his decades old assignment (from Pakistan) of separating Kashmir from India..


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## hecj

let him to dance.he is hypocrite.he used to say abt alignment to pakistan ,now freedom.he doesnt have any stand.


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## kingdurgaking

Multani said:


> attrition ratio against its own people? what a blood thirsty army



Who is doing the attrition ISI or our Army??Think logical you are doing not we... We are doing our duty...

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## sasuke

One thing I can't understand ... why free Kashmir is thought of merging with Pakistan? Who would want to merge with a country on the verge of economic collapse even if its for religious sake. It doesn't make any sense ... who would go and kill their own economy and their livelihoods. 

@Amir - no one is asking them to go ... if they wish they can go anywhere. No ones stopping them. But when you are in a country ... you have to follow the laws of the state. I hope u understand the term of sovereignty and state, what they mean. 

Back to the topic .. THREAT from SHIV SENA ... lolz .... they are not armed militants.... they are just religious lunatics that are obsessed with religion like some of the neighbors ... they are just concerned with mumbai and maharastra ... they don't give a f*** wat really happens in the rest of the country.


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## hecj

Prometheus said:


> arey bhai.............I didnt wanted to disturb the mods..........so I did it myself



ki gal paaji,now a days u r making fun a lot ,u seem to be the agent of isi

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## StingRoy

I didn't know Indian Army also gave "marbles" to its soldiers instead of bullets? Or maybe the Army was playing "gulli danda" on the streets.


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## karan.1970

kingdurgaking said:


> Who is doing the attrition ISI or our Army??Think logical you are doing not we... We are doing our duty...




So true.. Its like pushing innocent people into the fire and then blaming the fire for their deaths

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## Mirza Jatt

*42 militants killed in Kashmir in September*

The Army has killed 42 militants during its counter-infiltration and counter-insurgency operations in Kashmir Valley in September, a defence spokesman said here on Saturday.

As many as 42 well-armed and trained, both local and foreign militants, have been eliminated in the ongoing counter-terrorism operations conducted by the Army in September, the spokesman said.

He said a large cache of arms and ammunition has also been unearthed during this period.

In the successful encounters, a large quantity of war-like stores including assault rifles, pistols, rocket propelled grenades, hand grenades, improvised explosive device (IED) equipment, detonators, mines and sophisticated communication equipment have been seized by the Army, the spokesman said.

He said this is the most successful operation in recent years.

Vigilant troops along the LoC have intercepted, engaged and eliminated 16 militants and while conducting joint operations with the Special Operations group of state police in the hinterland, 26 militants were killed, he said, adding the synergy between the security forces has resulted in these result oriented encounters.

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## Archie

And to think some people blame us for trouble in Baluchistan and NWFP
Pakistans economy might be in doldrum but one sector is doing quite well


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## Mirza Jatt

lol..I just created a thread on the same topic.

@mods -please merge them.


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## kingdurgaking

Geelani Cute $$$(not bad word) strikes again ... hmmm he is responsible for the entire turmoil and now he is putting blame on others... There is a saying in tamil "Those who sow the seeds have to reap the fruit"... Geelani sowed the bad seeds and the police are taking revenge... what i feel bad is why the police take revenge on others they should go and knock on the head of geelani..

If geelani is a gentle man who really wishes to fight for his people... he should help the kid by donating his eyes or any of his kins eye to the affected..


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## Frankenstein

dezi said:


> I didn't know Indian Army also gave "marbles" to its soldiers instead of bullets? Or maybe the Army was playing "gulli danda" on the streets.



nobody gives marble to Army, they can find it on streets, and gulli danda does not require marbles


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## Illusive

Some day we have to take the main hive down from where these bees come. For how long will our Army do the clean up job.


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## forcetrip

Everyone can have their laughs and congratulate each other and the army for a job well done. When the back slapping ends take a trip down there and see the conditions the army has on the people. You all are more than welcome to join me come December if conditions permit. You cannot decipher anything reading about it from the media in these two countries.


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## karan.1970

forcetrip said:


> Everyone can have their laughs and congratulate each other and the army for a job well done. When the back slapping ends take a trip down there and see the conditions the army has on the people. You all are more than welcome to join me come December if conditions permit. You cannot decipher anything reading about it from the media in these two countries.



Life's always tough in a battle zone. And thats what Kashmir is between India and Pakistan. So what if thee is no formal declaration of war. Both our countries are in a state of war since 1947. Since 1987, Kashmir has been the battleground. Inshahallah, like all previous ones, this one will also go our way...

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## kingdurgaking

Archie said:


> And to think some people blame us for trouble in Baluchistan and NWFP
> Pakistans economy might be in doldrum but one sector is doing quite well



But this sector is not revenue generating sector.. it is a revenue destroying sector.... What to do?? all there investments are getting washed like mud castle built near the beaches... still ISI/Army are investing in it....


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## kingdurgaking

forcetrip said:


> Everyone can have their laughs and congratulate each other and the army for a job well done. When the back slapping ends take a trip down there and see the conditions the army has on the people. You all are more than welcome to join me come December if conditions permit. You cannot decipher anything reading about it from the media in these two countries.



Please look into your house see what your ISI/Army are doing to your part of land... before you complain on us...

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## Prometheus

dezi said:


> I didn't know Indian Army also gave "marbles" to its soldiers instead of bullets? Or maybe the Army was playing "gulli danda" on the streets.



Damm............evil Bharati Army is hit by economic slowdown.........."cost cutting"


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## softtec

arihant said:


> correct. Kudos.
> 
> I remember when title was "Indian Army killed Terrorist" was changed "Massacre of Indian Army on Kashmiris".



can the thread starter know,which MOD has changed the title of his thread.


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## KS

karan.1970 said:


> @Promo
> 
> Was it you or your did thread title get changed?





Prometheus said:


> arey bhai.............I didnt wanted to disturb the mods..........so I did it myself




Even the name "Freedom Fighters" looks good..? Doesnt it..Karan.?

Good job IA and Promotheus

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## karan.1970

Karthic Sri said:


> *Even the name "Freedom Fighters" looks good..? Doesnt it..Karan.?*
> 
> Good job IA and Promotheus




It does.. Kind of reminds me of Jana using the term Bharti..

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## Undivided Kashmir

The so called *Freedom* Fighters got real freedom from their Miserable barbaric lives.

They should thank Indian Army for that.


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## Undivided Kashmir

My friend that the dubious nature of Pakistan Govt and Pak army.

Even Banned organisations are allowed to openly advertise in new papers for money, They can operate openly.


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## doctor_who

*sad indeed, *

*indian forces need better equipments, and better support from country. things will get better i hope and next we will hear indian troops will eradicate these idiots from face of earth. violence must be dealt with serious response. *


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## Malik Usman

Its joke of the year...........really militants or ...........Freedom fighters fighting for their land captured by Indian army........you guys still have doubts after all what happening in Kashmir these days.......
You can capture a land but can't win the hearts of peoples...


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## Awesome

I find it funny how Indians are quick to mock the deaths of Kashmiri freedom fighters but they won't be able to bear the same when the deaths of Indian soldiers are ridiculed in the same way.

Learn to give respect to the enemy's fallen soldiers, or else you'll get none in return as well.

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## IFB

The only way to win people's heart is to send "freedom fighters" armed with RPG,AK's,grenades?


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## TheWarriorIndian

Malik Usman said:


> Its joke of the year...........really militants or ...........Freedom fighters fighting for their land captured by Indian army........you guys still have doubts after all what happening in Kashmir these days.......
> You can capture a land but can't win the hearts of peoples...



But we sure can Open the door to schools and Those who throw stones at children to join there movement then *RIP *to the Stone peltors.... We Need education in the valley Not Radicalism


----------



## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> I find it funny how Indians are quick to mock the deaths of Kashmiri freedom fighters but they won't be able to bear the same when the deaths of Indian soldiers are ridiculed in the same way.
> 
> Learn to give respect to the enemy's fallen soldiers, or else you'll get none in return as well.



I know where you are coming from. And can understand the sentiment. But the mocking already exists both ways, or did you miss the fun Pakistani members had with the broiler Murga comments of the Maoists when they killed scores of Indian CRPF men.

Pakistan has its stand on these Insurgents. But for Indians they are no different to us than what a TTP or a LeJ terrorist is to you. While I respect the forum rules, this being a Pakistani forum, and most of us now do not indulge in abusive words for these guys, all of us feel delighted at every single casualty inflicted on these groups that all of us see as terrorists.

We can not classify them as enemy combatants till Pakistan accepts them as their soldiers. Till then, they are probably not any different from the young men being featured in a allegedly Pakistan Army video that is doing rounds on the internet. And you can see the comments from Pakistani members on that thread. As I said, for us, these guys are no different..

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## Awesome

karan.1970 said:


> I know where you are coming from. And can understand the sentiment. But the mocking already exists both ways, or did you miss the fun Pakistani members had with the broiler Murga comments of the Maoists when they killed scores of Indian CRPF men.
> 
> Pakistan has its stand on these Insurgents. But for Indians they are no different to us than what a TTP or a LeJ terrorist is to you. While I respect the forum rules, this being a Pakistani forum, and most of us now do not indulge in abusive words for these guys, all of us feel delighted at every single casualty inflicted on these groups that all of us see as terrorists.
> 
> We can not classify them as enemy combatants till Pakistan accepts them as their soldiers. Till then, they are probably not any different from the young men being featured in a allegedly Pakistan Army video that is doing rounds on the internet. And you can see the comments from Pakistani members on that thread. As I said, for us, these guys are no different..


The forum is not for Indian delight, either you discuss the event or the issue. 

Indian perspectives are flawed and incomparable to the situation in Pakistan which is fighting acknowledged terrorists by the world. Kashmir being a UN disputed issue, the fight over there is legitimate and incomparable to the terrorists Pakistan fights.

This forum has never acknowledged the legitimacy of the Indian Maoist movement for this very purpose as there is no UN mandate for those lands being disputed territory.


----------



## Greater Pakistan

> that the dubious nature of Pakistan Govt and Pak army.



dont come on such dubious forums.thank you


----------



## Undivided Kashmir

Asim Aquil said:


> I find it funny how Indians are quick to mock the deaths of Kashmiri freedom fighters but they won't be able to bear the same when the deaths of Indian soldiers are ridiculed in the same way.
> 
> *Learn to give respect to the enemy's fallen soldiers, or else you'll get none in return as well*.



We dont consider them as soldiers, We would show respect if the dead were from Pak military.

All those dead people were terrorists and they dont deserve any respect.


----------



## Kashmiri Nationalist

JuD may be banned in Pakistan, but not AJK.


----------



## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> The forum is not for Indian delight, either you discuss the event or the issue.
> 
> Indian perspectives are flawed and incomparable to the situation in Pakistan which is fighting acknowledged terrorists by the world. Kashmir being a UN disputed issue, the fight over there is legitimate and incomparable to the terrorists Pakistan fights.
> 
> This forum has never acknowledged the legitimacy of the Indian Maoist movement for this very purpose as there is no UN mandate for those lands being disputed territory.



Asim

The indian POV is part of the discussion.. Isnt it?? After all the incidents being discussed are happeneing in an area within India's borders; disputed or otherwise. 


You have all the rights to label India's perspectives as flawed, just like I have to call Pakistan's. There is no way Pakistan can enforce what India's perception should be about these people. For us, they can never be enemy combatants because Pakistan does not take ownership of them. The day they infiltrate into India wearing Pakistani Army uniform and carrying Pakistani dog tags, they will be accorded the courtsey and honor of a captured/fallen enemy soldier. Till then, for us they are terrorists and/or mercenaries. 

Now the legitimacy of the cause may or may not be different between TTP and LeT depending on whether you are talking to an Indian or a Pakistani, but that is just ideology.

From a methodology perspective, both are same.


----------



## Undivided Kashmir

Azad Kashmir said:


> JuD may be banned in Pakistan, but not AJK.



But they can openly advertise in pakistan national new papers for funds ?


----------



## arihant

Azad Kashmir said:


> JuD may be banned in Pakistan, but not AJK.



oh! First time heard that Pakistan looking for independence till now I thought "*Kashmir banega Pakistan* - _Allah-O-Akbar_"

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## arihant

Greater Pakistan said:


> dont come on such dubious forums.thank you



I hidden identity person.. ha...ha. First time show posting something else than "I am Indian Muslim but I am Pakistan.. .

Sorry, but you should at least agree with govt. point.


----------



## arihant

Aamir Zia said:


> Why Kashmiris will leave their very own land for India's Desires ???



His comment was "The government of India has given you every right to leave India and settle in any country as per your desire. Good luck."

Even if you apply the your own logic to J&K, still we are following laws where everyone is allowed to go if he wishes too.

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## arihant

softtec said:


> can the thread starter know,which MOD has changed the title of his thread.



no he can't. No where such column exist who edited it and eventually it is not important too because as Pakistani law state them Freedom Fighter, they are just following the laws and nothing wrong. 

I think title can be also 

*42 freedom fighters killed in September by Indian Hindu Terrorist* since everyone including Jana has always called Indian Army as Hindu Terrorist.


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## Areesh

First they ignore you.... *Then they laugh at you*...... Then they fight you.... Then you Win. -Gandhi


----------



## arihant

Army did gave respect to those who were killed in the Kargil. If you remember below is video.


----------



## arihant

Areesh said:


> First they ignore you.... *Then they laugh at you*...... Then they fight you.... Then you Win. -Gandhi



I guess this applies with Pak's stand. Pakistani is ignoring India's advice ya ? I guess I can see you laughing every where


----------



## Indian Gurkha

Asim Aquil said:


> I find it funny how Indians are quick to mock the deaths of Kashmiri freedom fighters but they won't be able to bear the same when the deaths of Indian soldiers are ridiculed in the same way.
> 
> Learn to give respect to the enemy's fallen soldiers, or else you'll get none in return as well.



same may be said about the Taliban ur army is fighting...they too are freedom fighters for some...should we rejoice when ur army men are killed by the Taliban. please think sensibly before posting something as the same can backfire on u...ur definition of terroriism should be either in black or white...u either support it or condemn it.there should be no grey area. u cannot simultaneously condemn the terrorist act of the Taliban and support those of the Kashmiri terrorists as doing that would mean you are a hypocrite . It's this hypocrisy on the part of Pakistanis that has made it what it is today..and no matter how many self praising articles u write about the infallibility of the Pakistani state everyone knows that Pakistani is is shambles..a state that has to beg to provide aid to its citizens ...a state whose army is the pawn of other states and whose soldiers can be killed in 'mistaken' air strikes...to cut it short wake up before you find that it is better to sleep than to wake up..
anyway is there a way to remove the 'thanks':

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## kingdurgaking

Asim Aquil said:


> I find it funny how Indians are quick to mock the deaths of Kashmiri freedom fighters but they won't be able to bear the same when the deaths of Indian soldiers are ridiculed in the same way.
> 
> Learn to give respect to the enemy's fallen soldiers, or else you'll get none in return as well.



Are you sure you call them by the name Freedom fighters??? if you call them so .... what title you give for your father of nation?? dont you think it is unfair to name these people as Freedom fighers?? So you mean to say your father of nation and these people are same??


----------



## Areesh

arihant said:


> Army did gave respect to those who were killed in the Kargil. If you remember below is video.
> 
> YouTube - Kargil War - Pakistani Army surrenders and accepts bodies



I have watched this video. Just want to ask you that who would confirm that this video is credible and not the part of Indian propaganda after Kargil war.


----------



## Areesh

arihant said:


> *I think picture itself says the truth.*



Yes kill her. Burn her house. Kill all males in her house. R@pe all the young females in her family.

She is committing a very big crime. Throwing stones.

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## hecj

Areesh said:


> Yes kill her. Burn her house. Kill all males in her house. R@pe all the young females in her family.
> 
> She is committing a very big crime. Throwing stones.



and u know the whole story came in ur mind.


----------



## booo

Areesh said:


> I have watched this video. Just want to ask you that who would confirm that this video is credible and not the part of Indian propaganda after Kargil war.



you are insulting the fallen soldiers by calling this a propaganda.


----------



## Areesh

booo said:


> you are insulting the fallen soldiers by calling this a propaganda.



Their was a propaganda campaign that started after Kargil war, can't believe in such videos.


----------



## hecj

Areesh said:


> Their was a propaganda campaign that started after Kargil war, can't believe in such videos.



when come to u,u call it propaganda.i remember the thread running on ur army killed those ppl.i can give u the video links where ur army or agency kill the ppl in blo,which is now irrelevant.
the only thing is when it is indian army then it is cruelty ,when comes to u ,it is propaganda.dont show the hypocrisy.


----------



## Areesh

hecj said:


> when come to u,u call it propaganda.i remember the thread running on ur army killed those ppl.i can give u the video links where ur army or agency kill the ppl in blo,which is now irrelevant.
> the only thing is when it is indian army then it is cruelty ,when comes to u ,it is propaganda.dont show the hypocrisy.



And the purpose of your post was? Immature rant.


----------



## hecj

Areesh said:


> And the purpose of your post was? Immature rant.



and ur last post was immature calling everything against u a propaganda .the post u will write , result u will get according to that post.


----------



## Areesh

hecj said:


> and ur last post was immature calling everything against u a propaganda .the post u will write , result u will get according to that post.



Prove me wrong and prove that video is authentic.


----------



## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Prove me wrong and prove that video is authentic.



So are you saying that the dead bodies of NLI regiment and the surrendering Pakistani soldiers are fake? I mean are you 10 years later towing the same line that GoP did in the begining before they were exposed?

And are you disowning your fallen soldiers in this video?


----------



## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> So are you saying that the dead bodies of NLI regiment and the surrendering Pakistani soldiers are fake? I mean are you 10 years later towing the same line that GoP did in the begining before they were exposed?
> 
> And are you disowning your fallen soldiers in this video?



I am disowning fake videos...


----------



## bigbrother

Areesh said:


> I am disowning fake videos...



like how you disowned ure own soldeirs after kargil.
this is ure habbit. and it makes no difference to us.


----------



## justanobserver

@bigbrother

Are you living in Pakistan?


----------



## bigbrother

justanobserver said:


> @bigbrother
> 
> Are you living in Pakistan?



no. first flag came by default. second i changed to reveal my identity.


----------



## arihant

Areesh said:


> I have watched this video. Just want to ask you that who would confirm that this video is credible and not the part of Indian propaganda after Kargil war.





Areesh said:


> Their was a propaganda campaign that started after Kargil war, can't believe in such videos.



*I don't need to say anything. If you deny it, it is probably you are insulting those called freedom fighters.*

---------- Post added at 06:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:26 PM ----------




bigbrother said:


> no. first flag came by default. second i changed to reveal my identity.



Brother there is option where you can change the first flag too.


----------



## arihant

Areesh said:


> Yes kill her. Burn her house. Kill all males in her house. R@pe all the young females in her family.
> 
> She is committing a very big crime. Throwing stones.



You want us to kill ? Never knew when India started taking lessons from Pakistan.

Just saw stats in Pakistan not even single R@pe happened. What a society man..


----------



## sasuke

Why would the Indian Army go to the extent of hitting students with marbles? Don't they have guns? The CRPF has lathis .... 

wat the hell ... don't they know how to use them?


----------



## Areesh

arihant said:


> You want us to kill ? Never knew when India started taking lessons from Pakistan.
> 
> Just saw stats in Pakistan not even single R@pe happened. What a society man..



The above post by a Bharati is enough for answer to you.


----------



## arihant

Areesh said:


> The above post by a Bharati is enough for answer to you.



The answer itself the content the real thing too, if you want to read it.

CRPF with danda ? That is enough... If you know or don't in Hyderabad when Telegana Revolution (seperate state for Telegana) was raised around 80 students were killed. Whether its kashmiri or hyderabadi or Gujarati, they will have to fight with bullet if they use violence.


----------



## Areesh

arihant said:


> *I don't need to say anything. If you deny it, it is probably you are insulting those called freedom fighters.*




Can't insult anyone, when the video isn't credible.


----------



## Game is loading

AHA!
I liked the word used!,Freedom Fighters!

For Pakistanis,idiotic extremists=freedom fighters..


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## arihant

Game is loading said:


> AHA!
> I liked the word used!,Freedom Fighters!
> 
> For Pakistanis,*****=freedom fighters..



Bit offensive. You should try to edit it.

I still say they are soldiers of Pakistan and if I knew they are buried as per Islamic law in the Kabristan only.


----------



## Anonymous_Clown

Why all this nonsense discussion about trying to prove to some brainwashed people that the video is genuine? They have been brainwashed into believing that the Indian army is full of "Hindu terrorists" - that is the pathetic level of conditioning. For them, the Pakistan army is as pure as roses, and when a video of them killing in cold blood is released, it becomes a 'conspiracy and propaganda'. That is how they are.

Coming to this topic, I want to tell all Pakistanis who are asking us to 'respect enemy combatants': the day you people send these people in the Pakistan army uniform with Pakistan army ID cards and PA-supplied ammunition, we will respect them when they are shot dead. 

Why don't you people respect the freedom fighters on your northern/northwestern borders instead of shooting them like dogs?

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## Bhairava

Areesh said:


> Yes kill her. Burn her house. Kill all males in her house. R@pe all the young females in her family.
> 
> She is committing a very big crime. Throwing stones.



Did anyone ask about the modus operandi of the Pakistan Army in FATA or Balochistan.?

We are talking about Kashmir.

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## Areesh

arihant said:


> The answer itself the content the real thing too, if you want to read it.
> 
> CRPF with danda ? That is enough... If you know or don't in Hyderabad when Telegana Revolution (seperate state for Telegana) was raised around 80 students were killed. Whether its kashmiri or hyderabadi or Gujarati, they will have to fight with bullet if they use violence.



The CRPF has it's own guns ready to shoot down kids whenever they throw stones in IOK. 100 + youth killed in past three months is an example. As far as Hyderabad is concern, 80 people might have killed in Hyderabad, but IOK's issue is different from hyderabad or andhrapardesh. They want freedom from illegitimate Indian occupation which might not be the case in Hyderabad.



Gounder said:


> Did anyone ask about the modus operandi of the Pakistan Army in FATA or Balochistan.?
> 
> We are talking about Kashmir.



Nice troll attempt boy. But I was also talking about IOK and Bharati army modus operandi in the occupied valley.


----------



## SEAL

Few hours ago terrorist Indians army killed 8 more teenagers how long we'll see this terrorism of IA, these kids shud have AK's for self defense not just stones.


----------



## RollingStones

Omar1984 said:


> *An eight-year-old Kashmiri went out to play. He came back home dead​*
> Sameer Rah was beaten by Indian paramilitaries and flung into a poison ivy bush. The hopes of 2007 seem a world away.
> 
> A few days back I travelled to Batamaloo neighbourhood in Srinagar, the capital city of Indian-controlled Kashmir. Coils of barbed wire blocked the desolate roads; thousands of Indian soldiers patrolled the streets to enforce a strict military curfew. I couldn't reach the man I wanted to meet and finally managed to speak to him on the phone.
> 
> On 2 August Fayaz Rah, a 39-year-old fruit vendor from Batamaloo, had lunch with his wife and three children. Outside, Indian troops enforced the curfew. Yet the children would find a clearing or a courtyard to play cricket or imitate the adults and raise a slogan for Kashmir's independence from India. His youngest son, eight-year-old Sameer, took two rupees for pocket money from his father and stepped out to join his friends near his uncle's house.
> 
> *Young Sameer walked into a lane and impulsively shouted a few slogans for Kashmir's independence. He didn't realise a group of Indian paramilitaries was around. They caught the eight-year-old and beat him with bamboo sticks, some blows striking his head. They then threw the boy into a clump of poison ivy bushes, but a crowd gathered. The paramilitaries called a police truck, which drove Sameer to the nearby hospital. Meanwhile, police and paramilitaries teargassed the crowd.*
> 
> "Someone told me that a child has been killed," said Fayaz. He called a friend in the local police and mentioned that his son, who had left home wearing a yellow T-shirt, had not returned. His friend arrived at his door with an ambulance. "I saw my boy on the ventilator," Fayaz sighed. Doctors tried for hours to revive him, but couldn't save Sameer. *"There is no justice in Kashmir," Fayaz told me*. "Now the police claim my son died in a stampede."
> 
> It is getting harder to keep track of the deaths. In recent years, the hot guerrilla war over the region that began in 1990 first gave way to a cold peace, then, in the past two years, waves of mass protests. The summer of 2008 saw the biggest demonstrations for Kashmir's independence from India in two decades; they were put down by force, with 60 deaths and more than 500 injuries. In the past three months, Indian forces have killed 106 Kashmiri protesters and bystanders, mostly teenagers.
> 
> *The current fighting broke out as a protest against the killing of a 17-year-old student, Tufail Mattoo, in Srinagar. He was returning home from tuition and was hit by a teargas shell the police fired to disperse a crowd that had gathered to protest at another death. The situation has produced a Palestinian-style intifada in which young boys battle Indian troops with stones, and the soldiers shoot to kill.*
> 
> *India, meanwhile, continues to garrison half a million soldiers in Kashmir, nearly three times the number of American troops in Iraq at the peak of the occupation. India's half-century-old Armed Forces Special Powers Act, which was extended to Kashmir in 1990, gives troops the legal authority to shoot any person they suspect of being a threat, and guarantees immunity from prosecution. To bring a soldier before a civilian court requires the permission of India's home ministry; more than 400 such cases are still waiting for it.*
> 
> In the absence of justice, or any progress in the negotiations between India and Pakistan over the region's future, despair in Kashmir has grown. Walls all over the region are painted with slogans: *We Want Freedom! India, Go Back! Protesters are killed, and with every death more protests follow. The number of injured is believed to have risen to more than 1,000.*
> 
> Hospitals have been facing a serious shortage of medicines and the impossibility of conducting various medical tests that depend on private pharmacies and medical facilities. Many doctors aren't able to reach hospitals. Over the weekend Dr Bashir Chapoo, a senior eye surgeon, told me that the troops hadn't let him travel to his hospital in central Srinagar for more than a week. Seventeen of his patients had pellets stuck in their eyes. I called him yesterday. "I am still stuck at home. Most of my patients have left the hospital now. I have no idea where they are," Dr Chapoo said. Two had already lost their eyesight.
> 
> The military curfew continues with a few hours break once a week. The usual bustle of Kashmiri mornings has been replaced by an eerie silence; my street belongs to stray dogs and chirping birds. *The morning papers stopped publishing after the troops attacked the newsagents.* It is a world away from the hopeful spring of 2007, when back-channel talks between Indian and Pakistan diplomats  encouraged by Manmohan Singh, India's prime minister, and Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan's president  seemed to be close to bearing fruit. The solution they had agreed on would have resulted in a largely autonomous Kashmir with soft borders between the Indian- and Pakistani-controlled regions, and the gradual demilitarisation of Kashmir. But the talks lost steam when Musharraf lost power, and broke down after the 2008 attacks on Mumbai, orchestrated by Pakistani militants.
> 
> Mirwaiz Umar Farooq  head of the All Parties Hurriyat (Freedom) Conference, a coalition of separatist groups  championed the peace talks without any results. But now such moderates find themselves marginalised. *The influence of the separatist hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani has risen; he is now viewed as the most substantial powerbroker in the region. *The only lull in the recent protests occurred when he appealed to the protesters to stay home.
> 
> After several high-profile meetings last week, Singh's government rejected even moderate demands such as repealing the Armed Forces Special Powers Act  even though a committee set up by Singh four years ago recommended doing so. Scaling back troops from residential areas wasn't even discussed.
> 
> 
> The Indian government did, however, despatch a delegation of parliamentarians to Kashmir for a fact-finding mission. The group arrived at Geelani's Srinagar home on Monday afternoon, accompanied by scores of television crews. *The Kashmiri leader enumerated his preconditions for peace talks: New Delhi should accept Kashmir as a dispute, free Kashmiri political prisoners, and withdraw its troops. Soldiers guilty of civilian killings must be punished, and their blanket protection withdrawn. India is not willing to concede any of these demands,* but the meeting provides at least a sliver of hope that the conversations so close to producing results three years ago might begin again.
> 
> What the Singh government does next will be its big test. Various analysts and political figures have suggested unconditional, result-oriented talks with the Kashmiris and a revival of the dialogue with Pakistan. It may well be the only way to save Kashmir  and India itself  from future calamities.



There's way too much propaganda here, which is a complete turn off.


----------



## RollingStones

Omar1984 said:


> 'Azadi for us means an end to repressive military rule in Valley' - The Times of India
> 
> 
> NEW DELHI: A cross section of Delhi's civil society and women activists listened in stunned silence as Parweena Ahangar, a middle-aged Kashmiri woman, narrated the torment of a mother whose son "disappeared" 20 years ago. It's believed that he was killed by security forces. Parweena mentioned her son only once. After that she wept for dozens of others, naming them and describing the circumstances of their disappearance. Parweena is in Delhi with a group of Kashmiri women to narrate the horrors of a society at war, and to make another attempt to seek justice. It's a diverse group including university and school teachers, a hospital worker, a journalist and some housewives. They have been invited here by Women's Initiative for Peace in South Asia (WISPA).
> 
> 
> Hameedah Nayeem, a professor at Srinagar University, in a counterpoint to Parweena's choking grief, provides the context in staccato objectivity. *She says that the current protests that started four months ago are peaceful. ''Protesters throw stones only after police firing or if a woman's modesty is attacked, like security men forcibly snatching away the head-dress, as often happens,'' she says. *
> 
> Explaining what ''azadi''  a slogan voiced routinely in the Valley  means, Nayeem says it means getting rid of the armed forces and their repression, and also, the establishment of democracy.
> 
> *''In Delhi, you can't understand what it means to live with the military for 20 years. They have taken over all the public space  schools, roads, hospitals, cinemas, everything. They can hold up anyone, enter anyone's house do anything that they feel like,'' she says. According to Nayeem, the military has taken over one million ''kanals'' of land legally and another 2 million illegally in the Valley. ''This has destroyed the normal vocations of thousands of people,'' she says.*
> 
> 
> *The women from Kashmir silently weep as Parweena recounts the chilling story of 8-year old Samir Khan who was going to his uncle's house one afternoon and disappeared. His mutilated body was found the next day in the river. Investigations showed that his frail body had been crushed by boots and a metal rod inserted into his mouth. ''Why is the government honouring policemen who are responsible for killing thousands in Kashmir?'' she asks.*
> 
> 
> Parweena formed the Association of Parents of Disappeared Persons (APDP) to fight for investigation of all cases of what she calls ''enforced disappearance''. According to her, over 8,000 cases of such disappearance are recorded. In many cases investigations have been done and guilty persons from security forces identified. ''But, we have to run from pillar to post trying to get somebody to hear our sorrow,'' she says. The delegation presented a set of demands to home secretary G K Pillai, which included getting women involved in the peace process, demilitarization, withdrawal of AFSPA and PSA, release of imprisoned youth, prosecution of errant security personnel etc.
> 
> 
> Whether it is the agony of Parweena Ahangar or the cold objectivity of Hameedah Nayeem, the message from the women of Kashmir is loud and clear  they will continue the struggle for justice and peace, and for end of what they call military rule in Kashmir. ''It's an oath we have taken in the name of Allah. We will not give up,'' says Parweena softly.



This article is more balanced. It is from intellectuals like University professors. That carries a lot of weight. Delhi MUST listen to such people. Intellectuals make the backbone of a society.


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## karan.1970

fox said:


> Few hours ago terrorist Indians army killed 8 more teenagers how long we'll see this terrorism of IA, these kids shud have AK's for self defense not just stones.



oops... Your own media is calling these 8 as militants..
DAWN.COM | World | Eight militants killed in battles in Indian Kashmir

I think you are getting confused with another video on the net that is showing unarmed teenagers being shot after being blind folded and tied. The army in question there was centrainly not Indian.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## KSRaj

Areesh said:


> Yes kill her. Burn her house. Kill all males in her house. R@pe all the young females in her family.
> 
> She is committing a very big crime. Throwing stones.




Were you in Dhaka just before it got Liberated?


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## qamsss

why these indian do not WANT to understand and are not willing to understand what kashmiri people want,killing them,using tremendous power,against innocent people,and in this thread they are trying to justify that what indian army is doing is right.please for Gode sake,if anyone is doing anything wrong just say that its wrong ,even it is ur country,s army or politician,cruelity is cruelity,supperession is supperession, how can u deny that,,this is an open question to indian members on this forum,,,,,


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## karan.1970

qamsss said:


> why these indian do not WANT to understand and are not willing to understand what kashmiri people want,killing them,using tremendous power,against innocent people,and in this thread they are trying to justify that what indian army is doing is right.please for Gode sake,if anyone is doing anything wrong just say that its wrong ,even it is ur country,s army or politician,cruelity is cruelity,supperession is supperession, how can u deny that,,this is an open question to indian members on this forum,,,,,



I assume its an honest question so will try and answer accordingly

Its all about perspective. From some people's perspective, what India is doing in Kashmir may be wrong but for a lot of people it is not. For most citizens of India, the armed forces are doing their best to minimize collateral damage in a highly restive area which is a target of Pakistan sponsored insurgency and terrorism. 

Its just like, if you will ask a TTP sympb thoughathiser or a BLA cadre, he will find faults with Pakistani Army ops in KP region. Wont stop the army from doing its jo

---------- Post added at 11:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 PM ----------




qamsss said:


> why these indian do not WANT to understand and are not willing to understand what kashmiri people want,killing them,using tremendous power,against innocent people,and in this thread they are trying to justify that what indian army is doing is right.please for Gode sake,if anyone is doing anything wrong just say that its wrong ,even it is ur country,s army or politician,cruelity is cruelity,supperession is supperession, how can u deny that,,this is an open question to indian members on this forum,,,,,



btw, just 4 posts in 3 years??


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## StingRoy

Areesh said:


> The CRPF has it's own guns ready to shoot down kids whenever they throw stones in IOK. 100 + youth killed in past three months is an example. As far as Hyderabad is concern, 80 people might have killed in Hyderabad, but IOK's issue is different from hyderabad or andhrapardesh. They want freedom from illegitimate Indian occupation which might not be the case in Hyderabad.



From the CRPF perspective... both are internal security issues and they are dealt with in a similar manner. Any protest which turns violent with potential to damage public property or cause harm to other people are dealt with in the same manner.


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## Prometheus

fox said:


> Few hours ago terrorist Indians army killed 8 more teenagers how long we'll see this terrorism of IA, these kids shud have AK's for self defense not just stones.



These types of news makes me mad.........

this evil Bharti terrorist army should be nuked immediately.

what if those poor teenagers had AK 47 or some RPG with them, That doesnot give rite to Bhartis to violate human rites.

RIP Freedom fighters


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## karan.1970

Prometheus said:


> These types of news makes me mad.........
> 
> this evil Bharti terrorist army should be nuked immediately.
> 
> what if those poor teenagers had AK 47 or some RPG with them, That doesnot give rite to Bhartis to violate human rites.
> 
> RIP Freedom fighters



Were these 8 "Freedom Fighters" included in the tally of 42 you gave this morning?? If not, October has opened up with a big number in a single day..


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## Prometheus

karan.1970 said:


> Were these 8 "Freedom Fighters" included in the tally of 42 you gave this morning?? If not, October has opened up with a big number in a single day..



its birthday of Gandhi


----------



## Greater Pakistan

General Hameed Gul humiliates the treaches barat verma. barat verma confused and trying to deceive as its his and indian nature but in front of the truth of Hameed Gul his falsehood get destroyed crushed and humiliated

you can see from the tone and attitude of barat verma that he is a LIAR

WHEN THE TRUTH IS AGAINST THE FALSEHOOD THE FALSEHOOD GETS DESTROYED AS THE FALSEHOOD IS BOUND TO BE DESTROYED






















nail in the coffin...


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## Greater Pakistan

General Hameed Gul humiliates the treaches barat verma. barat verma confused and trying to deceive as its his and indian nature but in front of the truth of Hameed Gul his falsehood get destroyed crushed and humiliated

you can see from the tone and attitude of barat verma that he is a LIAR

WHEN THE TRUTH IS AGAINST THE FALSEHOOD THE FALSEHOOD GETS DESTROYED AS THE FALSEHOOD IS BOUND TO BE DESTROYED


































nail in the coffin...


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## glitteringstar

Gounder said:


> Awesome ,excellent,magnificient.....
> 
> But you know what Kashmir is still with India.



Lol if Kashmir is still part of India then why we see Azad Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan in Pakistan and why Askai Chin is contolled by China....Out of 222,000 km teritorry India has just got 100,000 sq km while Pakistan and China controlled the remaining Kashmir.
Lol don't always beleive on the map shown by Indian books. Open your eyes and see the reality.


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## hecj

glitteringstar said:


> Lol if Kashmir is still part of India then why we see Azad Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan in Pakistan and why Askai Chin is contolled by China....Out of 222,000 km teritorry India has just got 100,000 sq km while Pakistan and China controlled the remaining Kashmir.
> Lol don't always beleive on the map shown by Indian books. Open your eyes and see the reality.



u didnt understand his post.


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## aristocrat

Why spamming dude??u have opened 2 similar threads.


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## WHF

Areesh said:


> Yes kill her. Burn her house. Kill all males in her house. R@pe all the young females in her family.


She can be shot ,she is not playing on the streets with stone.
*She is throwing a stone on the security personal(living human beings) with an intension to kill/injure them.PPL also shoot with an intention to kill/injure ppl.*

Her unprovocative violence should be dealt with an iron fist and she can be shot at for self defense.This is our rule of the land.
Well if the males in her family does what she is doing they should be given the same treatment as given to her.
An the **** part well its the job of LeT guys.


Areesh said:


> She is committing a very big crime. Throwing stones.



Throwing stone is not a crime,but throwing stones with an intention to kill/harm is a henious crime. *It amounts to attempt to murder/murder charges.*Now what punishmint does shariat gives on the above said crimes??


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## WHF

Areesh said:


> The CRPF has it's own guns ready to shoot down kids whenever they throw stones in IOK. 100 + youth killed in past three months is an example. *As far as Hyderabad is concern, 80 people might have killed in Hyderabad, but IOK's issue is different from hyderabad or andhrapardesh. They want freedom from illegitimate Indian occupation which might not be the case in Hyderabad.*
> 
> 
> Nice troll attempt boy. But I was also talking about IOK and Bharati army modus operandi in the occupied valley.



Wat ever might be the reasons for ur protest if u protest with violence, destroy public property, injure ppl with an intention to kill u will be receiving the same treatment all over india.And that is .

As for azaadi is concerned, if u want freedom from india either leave india or DIE..

U know we bhartis took only few values of non violence from Gandhi..

I.E follow gandhian principles or we will  u.


----------



## Omar1984

RollingStones said:


> There's way too much propaganda here, which is a complete turn off.



The article is from the Guardian, a respectable news source from the United Kingdom.

Why dont you change your flag to the country which you are originally from, you know the tricolor flag with the wheel in the middle.


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## Omar1984

Student loses eye to CRPF sling-shot







Srinagar, Sept 29: The fears that government was risking the lives of students by decreeing them to attend schools amidst curfew and protests came true on Wednesday when a schoolboy lost his eye after being hit by a marble shot at him through sling shot allegedly by paramilitary CRPF troopers.

A 9th class student of Extol Bhawan School Awantibavan, Soura, Aabid Mushtaq, minutes after being brought out of Operation Theatre at SMHS Hospital here, while revealing his agony to Greater Kashmir said: *&#8220;I came out on road to see whether my school bus has reached the pickup place. Two CRPF men caught hold of me and another one shot a marble in my left eye with a sling shot from close range. They also thrashed me with canes.&#8221;

Aabid said he showed his identity card also but the troopers didn&#8217;t honour it. &#8220;CRPF men told me that Kashmiri students need not attend schools,&#8221; he said. &#8220;You are following Geelani&#8217;s calendar. When you didn&#8217;t go to school for past two days, what is the need to go today,&#8221; he quoted the troopers as saying. &#8220;Follow Geelani&#8217;s calendar,&#8221; the boy was told while being thrashed.*

Aabid&#8217;s father, Mushtaq Ahmad Bhat, a businessman, said since there was no curfew or protests in the area he allowed his son to attend the school. &#8220;My son was profusely bleeding in the eye. His shirt was fully stained with blood when we took him to hospital,&#8221; he said.

Muzaffar Ahmad, an eyewitness, said CRPF men ruthlessly beat up Aabid. &#8220;They later held him and one of them hit him with the marble,&#8221; he said. *&#8220;Kashmiri people are not safe in their own land. Forces are here to kill the people, not to provide security,&#8221; he lamented.*

Aabid was rushed to SKIMS from where doctors referred him to SMHS Hospital.
A senior doctor who operated upon Aabid told this reporter that Aabid&#8217;s eye has been badly damaged with injury in eyeball. &#8220;He can&#8217;t see with that eye. We can only try to repair the eye to avoid deformity in the face,&#8221; the doctor said.
The doctor said that Aabid has been shot from very close range. &#8220;It is unbearable. Small kids are becoming visually handicapped in force&#8217;s action,&#8221; he said.

The family members said they requested the SHO Soura to register an FIR. But police denied, saying let the patient recuperate from the injury then only they could register a case.


----------



## Kinetic

Areesh said:


> *Yes kill her. Burn her house. Kill all males in her house. R@pe all the young females in her family.
> *
> She is committing a very big crime. Throwing stones.



Who have done such crimes earlier? 

Strange!!!!! You are calling to killer her?? I think only military dictators in power have done such atrocities against own people. We have many example in the history. 

And stone throwing is not new in any part of India, let alone Kashmir. 

BTW liked your signature. lol


----------



## RollingStones

Omar1984 said:


> The article is from the Guardian, a respectable news source from the United Kingdom.
> 
> Why dont you change your flag to the country which you are originally from, you know the tricolor flag with the wheel in the middle.



Omar, you are a propagandist. Please spare us all the other diatribe you indulge or may indulge in. We dont get "Guardian" here. So no idea what this paper is like. So, Guardian does not deal in sensationalism??
Like I said before, where are the American Kashmiris and what are they doing? We need to hear from the horse's mouth and not newspapers. When was the last time governments took action based on newspaper reports? I have come to understand that Pakistani call people Indians when points of view dont converge with them. That is unfortunate and churlish, to say the least.


----------



## KS

Omar1984 said:


> A 9th class student of Extol Bhawan School Awantibavan, Soura, Aabid Mushtaq, minutes after being brought out of Operation Theatre at SMHS Hospital here, while revealing his agony to Greater Kashmir said: I came out on road to see whether my school bus has reached the pickup place. *Two CRPF men caught hold of me and another one shot a marble in my left eye with a sling shot from close range.* They also thrashed me with canes.



What a pathetic piece of propaganda...Looks like CRPF jawans are finishing their childhood by playing with slingshots..lol


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## Omar1984

Karthic Sri said:


> What a pathetic piece of propaganda...Looks like CRPF jawans are finishing their childhood by playing with slingshots..lol



From indian news sources:

Kashmir unrest: Troopers answer stone-throwers with slingshots - India - DNA


Boy injured in eye, kin say CRPF used slingshot


----------



## Ammyy

Omar1984 said:


> From indian news sources:
> 
> Kashmir unrest: Troopers answer stone-throwers with slingshots - India - DNA
> 
> 
> Boy injured in eye, kin say CRPF used slingshot



Uncle i think you not read headlines 
Kashmir unrest: Troopers answer *stone-throwers* with slingshots - India - DNA


----------



## Areesh

WHF said:


> She can be shot ,she is not playing on the streets with stone.
> *She is throwing a stone on the security personal(living human beings) with an intension to kill/injure them.PPL also shoot with an intention to kill/injure ppl.*
> 
> Her unprovocative violence should be dealt with an iron fist and she can be shot at for self defense.This is our rule of the land.
> Well if the males in her family does what she is doing they should be given the same treatment as given to her.
> An the **** part well its the job of LeT guys.
> 
> 
> Throwing stone is not a crime,but throwing stones with an intention to kill/harm is a henious crime. *It amounts to attempt to murder/murder charges.*Now what punishmint does shariat gives on the above said crimes??



Nice post... Clearly explains the Bharati secularism and the largest democrazy in the world.

Thanks for your psychotic post.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Omar1984

DRDO said:


> Uncle i think you not read headlines
> Kashmir unrest: Troopers answer *stone-throwers* with slingshots - India - DNA



Uncle..I'm probably younger than you.

And if you read that article, that was not pertaining to the student who lost his eye. He was not even throwing a stone. That article is proof indian armed forces are using slingshots, which the indian who I was responding to was denying that fact.

The second source I gave in my earlier post is about the young student who lost his eye due to indian armed forces using slingshots against the unarmed student.


----------



## pankaj agrawal

Omar1984 said:


> Uncle..I'm probably younger than you.
> 
> And if you read that article, that was not pertaining to the student who lost his eye. He was not even throwing a stone. That article is proof indian armed forces are using slingshots, which the indian who I was responding to was denying that fact.
> 
> The second source I gave in my earlier post is about the young student who lost his eye due to indian armed forces using slingshots against the unarmed student.


we don't believe that..it comes from india's BS media....lol


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## Omar1984




----------



## Omar1984

RollingStones said:


> Omar, you are a propagandist. Please spare us all the other diatribe you indulge or may indulge in. We dont get "Guardian" here. So no idea what this paper is like. So, Guardian does not deal in sensationalism??
> Like I said before, where are the American Kashmiris and what are they doing? We need to hear from the horse's mouth and not newspapers. When was the last time governments took action based on newspaper reports? I have come to understand that Pakistani call people Indians when points of view dont converge with them. That is unfortunate and churlish, to say the least.



The world doesnt revolve around only American media. Guardian is a British news source which was founded in 1821, its not a Pakistani news source, its run by White Christians (which you are pretending to be here in this forum).

I'm not a propagandist. I never posted false news in this forum or from any news website thats known to write propaganda.

I post news from all different countries' news source not only American.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## qamsss

karan.1970 said:


> I assume its an honest question so will try and answer accordingly
> 
> Its all about perspective. From some people's perspective, what India is doing in Kashmir may be wrong but for a lot of people it is not. For most citizens of India, the armed forces are doing their best to minimize collateral damage in a highly restive area which is a target of Pakistan sponsored insurgency and terrorism.
> 
> Its just like, if you will ask a TTP sympb thoughathiser or a BLA cadre, he will find faults with Pakistani Army ops in KP region. Wont stop the army from doing its jo
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> btw, just 4 posts in 3 years??



The reason for just four posts in three years is that i always observe comments from different people on different issues,i dont want to raise silly arguments all the time and waste my time,my friends please be serious on different issues,do not defend everything becuase u r patriotic to certain country,but try to give ur precious suggestions to improve situations within our region,not only indians but pakistani members as well,all of us should have a positive and realistic opinion,if a particular army is doing something wrong,u should condemn that,there is nothing wrong ,,


----------



## karan.1970

qamsss said:


> The reason for just four posts in three years is that i always observe comments from different people on different issues,i dont want to raise silly arguments all the time and waste my time,my friends please be serious on different issues,do not defend everything becuase u r patriotic to certain country,but try to give ur precious suggestions to improve situations within our region,not only indians but pakistani members as well,all of us should have a positive and realistic opinion,if a particular army is doing something wrong,u should condemn that,there is nothing wrong ,,



Very valid thought.. No disagreement there..


----------



## KS

Omar1984 said:


> From indian news sources:
> 
> Kashmir unrest: Troopers answer stone-throwers with slingshots - India - DNA
> 
> 
> Boy injured in eye, kin say CRPF used slingshot



You cry when rubber bullets are used,you cry when teargas is used,you cry when lathi charge is done and finally you cry when even stones are pelted back.

So why the hell are you protesting violently and pelting stones? Why dont you go to schools,colleges,work places so that the CRPF doesnt use any of the methods.
---------------------------------------------
you = Violent stone pelting Kashmiris.


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## karan.1970

Karthic Sri said:


> You cry when rubber bullets are used,you cry when teargas is used,you cry when lathi charge is done and finally you cry when even stones are pelted back.
> 
> So why the hell are you protesting violently and pelting stones? Why dont you go to schools,colleges,work places so that the CRPF doesnt use any of the methods.
> ---------------------------------------------
> you = Violent stone pelting Kashmiris.



See, thats the short term downside of Free press. Now if India would have disallowed independent press in J&K like Pakistani Army did during its FATA/SWAT operations, India could have also dismissed a lot of these stories as fake, like the one doing rounds these days about PA. But I for one, prefer these short term pains to get the longer term gain (in terms of checks and balances) of free press..


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## KS

karan.1970 said:


> See, thats the short term downside of Free press. Now if India would have disallowed independent press in J&K like Pakistani Army did during its FATA/SWAT operations, India could have also dismissed a lot of these stories as fake, like the one doing rounds these days about PA. But I for one, prefer these short term pains to get the longer term gain (in terms of checks and balances) of free press..



Totally agreed.

But my contention is particularly not against the press and its freedom to report..but why do the Kashmiris give a chance to the CRPF to hurt them by protesting violently.?

They could very well protest peacefully if at all they have any grievances.

They are not helping themselves,not their azaadi dream through this stone-pelting saga.The only thing they have achieved is getting branded themselves as violent ppl whatever their grievance might be.


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> See, thats the short term downside of Free press.* Now if India would have disallowed independent press in J&K like Pakistani Army did during its FATA/SWAT operations, India could have also dismissed a lot of these stories as fake, like the one doing rounds these days about PA.* But I for one, prefer these short term pains to get the longer term gain (in terms of checks and balances) of free press..



 Wow. Oh God. People go too hilarious and they never realize it.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> Wow. Oh God. People go too hilarious and they never realize it.



And the very fact that you had to put in totally irrelevant smileys and some digressive post implies maybe that there is some truth in Karan's point.


----------



## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> And the very fact that you had to put in totally irrelevant smileys and some digressive post implies maybe that there is some truth in Karan's point.



Or he was trying to make both Pakistanis and Bharati trolls happy. He has just completed 4000 posts. It is celebrations time you know.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> Or he was trying to make both Pakistanis and Bharati trolls happy. He has just completed 4000 posts. It is celebrations time you know.



The last thing you can say about that post was that it was a troll.

He made a genuine statement that Press Freedom must me maintained in a democracy (though Im more of a conservative who advocates Press Freedom is secondary to national security).

You can atleast appreciate that.


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## Kharavela

Hutchroy said:


> An Independent Jammu & Kashmir will be the WORST CASE SCENARIO for Pakistan and then the whole Indus Water Treaty will have to be re-negotiated in which case Pakistan will then loose "considerable" Waters which will be for Jammu & Kashmir.
> 
> As such Pakistan will allow a "Creation" of the Independent State of Jammu & Kashmir and then in a short while will Invade the State of Jammu & Kashmir just as in October 1947.



I dont beleive that even independence of Kashmir is going to happen....The fact is the best possible time to tweak Indian Gov to compromise on Kashmir issue in 1990. This was a time when India was financially weak..and we dont have any leverage in world diplomacy..Now things are changed...This is the era of 2010...Now even if world disagree with India on Kashmir still then nothing substantial is going to happen.... And that to when the independence of kashmir is supported by Pakistan who is beleived to be an hub of terrorist activity in world.....

So we the people of India are not worries as what world beleives..rather we are disapointed due humanatarian crisis there....


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## WHF

Areesh said:


> Nice post... Clearly explains the Bharati secularism and the largest democrazy in the world.
> 
> Thanks for your psychotic post.



Be happy that india is a hindu majority state, or else if minorities were to demand seperation from a muslim majority state like KSA and resort to stone pelting on security forces ,the world knows that a leg and a hand diagonally will be chopped off form their body..Mighty shariat u know..
*I strongly feel kashmiris who advocate freedom for the creation of a shariat abiding state should get the taste of shariat.Tey should be puished acording to shariat laws.*


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## karan.1970

Karthic Sri said:


> The last thing you can say about that post was that it was a troll.
> 
> He made a genuine statement that Press Freedom must me maintained in a democracy (though Im more of a conservative who advocates Press Freedom is secondary to national security).
> 
> You can atleast appreciate that.



Oh Well.. Let it go Karthic. I dont hold it against Areesh. You have to experience successful democracy and free press to understand what I was trying to say...

And Areesh, I will gladly accept your thanks.. You wanted a troll post and I have tried to oblige. If mods ban me, you can claim success..


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## S_O_C_O_M

*India exploiting Kashmirs natural resources: Gilani​*
Srinagar, October 04 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Gilani, maintaining that India is exploiting Kashmirs natural resources, has said that demilitarisation is panacea for all problems in the Valley.

Syed Ali Gilani in a statement issued in Srinagar said, Kashmir is blessed with lush forests and abundant water resources. India is looting our natural resources since decades. The forests in various areas have been vandalized by the troops in league with pro-India politicians and police.

He pointed out that despite complaints by the locals no action had been taken against the offenders, which showed that vandalization of Kashmirs natural resources was part of a conspiracy.

The veteran Hurriyet leader further stated that Indian Army had set up band saw mills inside their camps in Kupwara district. The troopers make furniture of the smuggled timber and transport it to other states. For establishing the camps, the troops are felling trees on 52,000 kanals of land in Shopian. This is a dangerous trend which can drastically affect our climate and make our land a desert, he added.

Syed Ali Gilani, who is spearheading the ongoing Quit Kashmir Movement, said that the only solution to all the problems including deforestation was demilitarisation.

The veteran leader flayed the occupation authorities for imposing curfew on Sunday to thwart a march towards Baramulla. He said that such tactics could not hamper Kashmiris liberation struggle. He deplored that some police officers were demanding hefty amounts from the parents in exchange of release of their children who were arrested during the past three months. 

India exploiting Kashmir?s natural resources: Gilani | Kashmir Media Service


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## Ishan

Yes Yes Mr. Gilani.. We Do Buy Kashmiri Apples , Kashmiri Carpets , Kashmiri Handicrafts , Kashmiri Shawl 

If by Buying These Things If Our Kashmiris Getting Money and U call it Exploitation


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## RobbieS

Better than stealing gas without paying any royalty.


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## third eye

Whats the prob ?

India is using Indian resources.


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## Ishan

That Gilani is a Double Faced Hypocrite..

His Grand Children Work in Private Companies in Delhi , Many of the "So Called" Seperatist Keep Their Children's Education in Delhi and So on..

Fooling Game Going on


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## prototype

Kashmir is Indian territory,we have every right to use its resources,we r not doing it for free,we r heavily spending on Kashmir and r providing them many benefits which r not even available for ordinary Indian citizens

but some pathetic people after receiving everything with open hands still try to pay back as in stones

and to the rest of the world,mind ur own business


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## KS

third eye said:


> India is using Indian resources.



Evil Bharati using Pakistan's resources (as Geelani wants to accede to Pakistan) and you are asking whats the problem.?


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## Avatar

This is like saying man is stealing the Earth's resources :x


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Kashmir deserves global attention​*
By ASIF SUFI, RIYADH 

Syed Neaz Ahmeds article, Kashmir: Fact and fiction, (Oct. 1) was true to the core and quite fair too.

The fact of the matter is that India has not only been hoodwinking Kashmiris but the global community. Repeatedly saying that Kashmir was an internal affair, India has been indulging in human rights violations in Kashmir for over 60 years now. This internal affairs theory has not only allowed India to kill, torture, maim and jail Kashmiris, it has also allowed it to clandestinely occupy major, strategic locations of the Kashmir Valley with abnormally high numbers of military personnel. Right through the 1980s and 90s in particular, India ran a horrific campaign of killings, torture and imprisonment. Prominent Muslim leaders in jail were subjected to shocking interrogation techniques in an effort to blunt their voices for freedom!

Over the last four months, India has killed over 400 Kashmiris in cold blood, using their proxy, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah. Its just about time that India realized that no amount of force would silence the voices of dissent in the valley anymore. You may have a temporal period of peace, but the larger issue will remain and that larger issue is a solution to the disputed status of Kashmir.

Hoodwinking the world community into believing that all is well in Kashmir will not work anymore. Even the Obama administration has recently taken Kashmir issue seriously and the impending state visit of the US president to India is likely to see Kashmir being on the agenda. While the suffering of the hapless Palestinians are really of serious nature, the plight of Kashmiris too deserves global attention. 

Kashmir deserves global attention - Arab News


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## PakiiZeeshan

The Indians are back


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## prototype

PakiiZeeshan said:


> The Indians are back



and when did we leave here,we dont leave a place which we claim as ours

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## S_O_C_O_M

*India conducting state terrorism in Kashmir, Pakistan tell U.N. ​* 
UNITED NATIONS, Sept 30 (APP): In a hard-hitting response to India&#8217;s attempt to link Pakistan with terrorism, a Pakistani delegate Wednesday asked New Delhi to stop its state-sponsored terrorism in Indian Held Kashmir as the two South Asian neighbours engaged in a verbal duel in the UN General Assembly.Exercising his right of reply to Indian External Affairs Minister S.M.Krishna&#8217;s speech earlier in the day, Ambassador Amjad Hussain Sial, the Pakistani deputy permanent representative, told the 192-member assembly that India also supported terrorist elements in neighbouring countries that created problems in the region.&#8220;India is also the country which conceived, created and nurtured the most lethal terrorist organization, which introduced suicide bombings in our region,&#8221; he said, in a clear reference to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE). 

&#8220;Still India has the nerve to give lectures on morality to others,&#8221; Sial said in a sharp rebuttal to Krishna&#8217;s claim that Kashmir is the target of &#8220;Pakistan-sponsored militancy and terrorism.&#8221; Indian delegate Manish Gupta did speak in right of reply, but did not specifically address Pakistan&#8217;s statement about India&#8217;s role in creating the terrorist outfit. Referring to Krishna&#8217;s self-serving claim that Jammu and Kashmir was part of India, the Pakistan delegate said nothing was farther from the truth. 

The disputed territory was on the agenda of the United Nations, which had passed resolutions to that effect. The first Prime Minster of India, Jawaharlal Nehru, had also made commitments, reaffirmation of which Pakistan welcomed noting that Kashmir was not the property of either India or Pakistan, but belonged to the Kashmiri people. 
He went on to say that India failed to fulfil its commitments, but still had the audacity not only to claim democratic credentials, but also to aspire to be a permanent member of the UN Security Council. 

Pakistan had only echoed non-governmental organizations and the media as to the ongoing situation concerning human rights in India, as well as Kashmir. 

Sial quoted a number of statements made by the international media and civil society groups expressing concern over the loss of life in indian Occupied Kashmir and calling for an immediate end to violence. 

For example, Amnesty International had called on Indian authorities to take steps and respect the right to life, while Human Rights Watch said that Kashmiris had been left without any justice. 

Despite brute force by security forces, the Pakistan delegate pointed out, Kashmiris did not support the occupation of their land and persisted in their struggle for the right for self-determination, the Pakistan delegate pointed out. 

India has maligned Pakistan on terrorism in order to hide its own behaviour, he went on to say. Pakistan&#8217;s role in fighting terrorism has been stated by the international community, and security forces in Pakistan continued to try to make the world safer, although countries continued to provide weapons and money to create havoc. 
The Indian Government was advised to take stock of its own policies and conduct, including supporting terrorism, Sial told representatives of member states on the last day of the general debate. 

India&#8217;s policies resulted in systematic human rights abuses, and the killing and maiming of Kashmiris, he said. Pakistan remained committed to peaceful dialogue with India, including about the Kashmire dispute, which would bring lasting peace not only between Pakistan and India, but beyond their borders. 

Addressing human rights for the people of IHK was the first step, the Pakistan delegate said. Gupta, the Indian delegate, accused Pakistan of making &#8220;false allegations&#8221; about his country. In fact, he said, Pakistan needed to tackle many of its own problems, rather than make comments on what he called the internal affairs of India. 

Gupta claimed that free elections in Jammu and Kashmir had been conducted. Returning to the floor, Sial, the Pakistani delegate, said that his country did not interfere in internal affairs of other countries, but that the issue of Jammu and Kashmir was not an internal dispute. 

Pakistan had the right to provide support to the people of Kashmir and their right to self-determination, he said. The Indian delegate&#8217;s reference justifying occupation was not only rejected by the people of Kashmir, but by the Security Council.

&#8220;The ongoing indigenous peaceful, unarmed, non-violent and widespread movement for azadi i.e. freedom in Indian occupied Kashmir has once again proved that despite facing decades of repression and some of the worst forms of human rights violations at the hands of Indian security forces, Kashmiris refuse to accept any other solution than the exercise of their just right to self-determination,&#8221; the Pakistan delegate said. 

India, he said, had no other option but to implement Security Council&#8217;s demand for free and fair plebiscite under the UN auspices. Sial declared that Pakistan would continue to extend moral, political and diplomatic support to the just struggle of Kashmiri people to exercise their right to self-determination. 

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - India conducting state terrorism in Kashmir, Pakistan tell U.N.


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## TheWarriorIndian

Yup, As The words have Come Out from the Mouth of a Very Decent man Whose country is Battling the menace Created By them speaking Of terrorism.... Where was his so called Integrity and Dignity when His nation violated the Battle ethics by Infiltrating Paramilitary troops and Mujahideens Across LOC during Kargil battle?? Which Later the World Criticized pakistan For doing it....And Now the So called Dignified People have started a New trend of Blaming India Without Proof To turn the World Attention Off them.....

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## Nirmzz

Wonder what the IQ of their external affairs minster qureshi is? What hypocrisy is this? Terrorism is what contributes the bulk of Pakistans GDP its their most famous export. LOL they are branding INDIA with state terrorism, no thanks we have much better things to commence on lets make some more software for Microsoft, IBM oracle or manufacture BMW's for Germany or help engineer a new microprocessor for Intel. While also managing to self sustain a population of 1.2 billion without worrying about receiving aid.

yahoo:


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## Humanist

*Let him speak,,, Wonder how many will be listening to him and wonder how many will beleive him knowing the history...*


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## Avatar

*And who is terrorizing the globe ? *


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## Gene

......................................................


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## KS

Pakistan is getting a taste of its own medicine with the breakaway *Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) led by Amanullah Khan launching a &#8216;Quit Kashmir&#8217; movement*, similar to that of the hardline Hurriyat Conference in Kashmir, in *Pakistan-0ccupied Kashmir (P0K).*

The aim is &#8220;reunification and complete independence&#8221; of the state of Jammu and Kashmir (J&K) divided by the line of control (LoC).
The decision was taken at a meeting of the JKLF central committee in Rawalpindi, Pakistan, on September 30. The meeting held under the leadership of chairman Sardar Saghir Ahmad Khan resolved to expand the &#8216;Quit Kashmir&#8217; movement to P0K and northern areas, including Gilgit and Baltistan.

A similar movement was launched by the pro-Pakistan Hurriyat led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani in Kashmir in June. The movement has so far claimed 109 lives in the Valley, mostly in firing by security forces and police.

*&#8220;To mobilise popular support for a concerted movement, JKLF has decided to hold a series of demonstrations in parts of Pakistan-0ccupied Kashmir from September 30.*

*Sit-ins will be held from October 22 to 27 at various places *close to the ceasefire line [LoC],&#8221; Toqeer Geelani, publicity chief of JKLF, said.

Elaborating, he said, JKLF will hold a series of public meetings from October 1 to 20 at all district headquarters, colleges and university campuses in P0K and Gilgit-Baltistan to consolidate the otherwise suppressed national aspiration for reunification and independence of the state of J&K.

&#8220;JKLF will hold a national integration restoration week from October 21 protesting foreign occupation of J&K. *On October 22, 1947, tribals supported by Pakistani forces entered J&K to plunder and on October 27, 1947, Indian forces arrived in Srinagar. As a result, the state was divided between India and Pakistan,&#8221;* Geelani said.

The breakaway faction claims to be the real JKLF having presence in both parts of Kashmir. Amanullah Khan was chairman of united JKLF when militancy started in Kashmir in 1989, but later spilt with Yasin Malik.


Now, separatists rise against Pak&#8217;s illegal occupation of Kashmir


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## sensenreason

Hmm...here's a funny scenario....India and Pakistan will keep fighting over Kashmir and both Kashmir's parts will go and join China and then India Pak will have to join hands to rescue Kashmir from China for waters sake if not anything else. That will be funny..Im just kidding though.


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## Areesh

@Topic


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> .
> And Areesh, I will gladly accept your thanks.. You wanted a troll post and I have tried to oblige. If mods ban me, you can claim success..



Well why would I want you to get banned. Trolls they come and go. You just completed 4000 posts. Congratz for it. Hope you keep defending your illegitimate occupation and make 14000 posts.


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## Ahmad

here you go, this kashmir has become a curse to both india and paksitan.


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## karan.1970

Karthic Sri said:


> Pakistan is getting a taste of its own medicine with the breakaway *Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) led by Amanullah Khan launching a Quit Kashmir movement*, similar to that of the hardline Hurriyat Conference in Kashmir, in *Pakistan-0ccupied Kashmir (P0K).*
> 
> The aim is reunification and complete independence of the state of Jammu and Kashmir (J&K) divided by the line of control (LoC).
> The decision was taken at a meeting of the JKLF central committee in Rawalpindi, Pakistan, on September 30. The meeting held under the leadership of chairman Sardar Saghir Ahmad Khan resolved to expand the Quit Kashmir movement to P0K and northern areas, including Gilgit and Baltistan.
> 
> A similar movement was launched by the pro-Pakistan Hurriyat led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani in Kashmir in June. The movement has so far claimed 109 lives in the Valley, mostly in firing by security forces and police.
> 
> *To mobilise popular support for a concerted movement, JKLF has decided to hold a series of demonstrations in parts of Pakistan-0ccupied Kashmir from September 30.*
> 
> *Sit-ins will be held from October 22 to 27 at various places *close to the ceasefire line [LoC], Toqeer Geelani, publicity chief of JKLF, said.
> 
> Elaborating, he said, JKLF will hold a series of public meetings from October 1 to 20 at all district headquarters, colleges and university campuses in P0K and Gilgit-Baltistan to consolidate the otherwise suppressed national aspiration for reunification and independence of the state of J&K.
> 
> JKLF will hold a national integration restoration week from October 21 protesting foreign occupation of J&K. *On October 22, 1947, tribals supported by Pakistani forces entered J&K to plunder and on October 27, 1947, Indian forces arrived in Srinagar. As a result, the state was divided between India and Pakistan,* Geelani said.
> 
> The breakaway faction claims to be the real JKLF having presence in both parts of Kashmir. Amanullah Khan was chairman of united JKLF when militancy started in Kashmir in 1989, but later spilt with Yasin Malik.
> 
> 
> Now, separatists rise against Paks illegal occupation of Kashmir



Last time when JKLF talked about indepenedence, there was a bloodbath and a lot of their leaders were taken out by the likes of Hizbul and LeT. Lets see how it goes this time around.

Any talks yet of India engineering this?


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Well why would I want you to get banned. Trolls they come and go. You just completed 4000 posts. Congratz for it. Hope you keep defending your illegitimate occupation and make 14000 posts.



Thanks for your congrats..


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## Omar1984

Notice the source is *DNA INDIA*.

Pakistan never saw any protest in Azad Kashmir against Pakistan like the ones in India Occupied Kashmir against india.

Even if Kashmiris protest against Pakistan, Pakistan wont gun them down like india does so often.


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## Areesh

@Omar 

Yaar it is a non issue. Bharati media just making fuss out of nothing.

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## Kambojaric

lol @ DNA India

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## Indiarox

Omar1984 said:


> Notice the source is from DNA INDIA.
> 
> *Pakistan never saw any protest in Azad Kashmir* against Pakistan like the ones in India Occupied Kashmir against india.


True very true Pakistan never saw protests , how foolish of Us Indians to think people in Pakistan would hear and see of Anti-Pakistan protest in Kashmir


Omar1984 said:


> Even if Kashmiris protest against Pakistan, Pakistan wont gun them down like india does so often.



of-course you won't gun them down you will just send your lap dogs the LET, Hizbul to gun them down and then claim innocence.....


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## GUNNER

It's a classic example of how news is twisted to suit one's wishes. 

The headline, catchy as it is - but also wrong, is not explained in the whole news. Neither does this new JKLF faction claims so. They want to start a movement for an independent Kashmir. That's all there is to it. And, there all lot of protets on our side of the Kashmir for that purpose.

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## KS

Omar1984 said:


> Notice the source is *DNA INDIA*.
> 
> Pakistan never saw any protest in Azad Kashmir against Pakistan like the ones in India Occupied Kashmir against india.
> 
> Even if Kashmiris protest against Pakistan, Pakistan wont gun them down like india does so often.





Areesh said:


> @Omar
> 
> Yaar it is a non issue. Bharati media just making fuss out of nothing.





Hamza Iqbal said:


> lol @ DNA India




Celebrating too soon eh.?

Read all you want from your Kashmiri sources and not from evil Bharti sources.

Amanullah Khan led JKLF to launch `Quit Kashmir Campaign` in PaK


Kashmir Dispatch Jammu and Kashmir Latest news and analysis


Kashmir Headlines - Worldnews Network





GUNNER said:


> It's a classic example of how news is twisted to suit one's wishes.
> 
> The headline, catchy as it is - but also wrong, is not explained in the whole news. Neither does this new JKLF faction claims so. They want to start a movement for an independent Kashmir. That's all there is to it. And, there all lot of protets on our side of the Kashmir for that purpose.



I have not changed the title,I have just put what it was.And more importantly it is not the title which matters,but the news inside.


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## WAQAS119




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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> Celebrating too soon eh.?
> 
> Read all you want from your Kashmiri sources and not from evil Bharti sources.



As said it is a non issue. Or something which doesn't exist.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> As said it is a non issue. Or something which doesn't exist.



How come it is a non issue.? Clearly The JKLF leader has given a call for Pakistan to stop occupying and vacate its Kashmir.
Dont the ppl of P0K have the right to self-determination.?

p.s.: Just because you close your eyes,the world doesnt become dark.


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## karan.1970

*Conclusions from the Study Tour to J&K from 24/June to 21/July 2010 by Beersmans Paul, President, Belgium Association for Solidarity with J&K. *

A. J&K, as it was before partition in 1947, is at present under the rule of three countries: 

(1) China: Aksai Chin and a territory of 5.180 km2 ceded by Pakistan to China; 
(2) India: J&K State comprising Jammu-region, the Kashmir-Valley and Ladakh (Kargil and Leh districts); 
(3) Pakistan: Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan (Northern Areas). 

The population of these regions is totally different from each other: culture, history, traditions, language, religion, etc. 

B. In order to find a permanent solution a dialogue is necessary on three levels, as we emphasise already since so many years: 

(1) bilateral level: between India and Pakistan; 
(2) national level: between the Government of India, the J&K State Government and the representatives of the civil society of the three regions; 
(3) internal level: between the different regions of J&K. 

C. Priority must be given to end the sufferings of the Kashmiris. This can only be realised by stopping violence and misleading people. They want to have a future and jobs for themselves, for their children. After 20 years of militancy, it is high time to give growing up generations a chance to have a normal youth and education. Violence has been rejected as an instrument for seeking a solution. Pakistan should stop cross-border terrorism and cross-border infiltration, stop sending money, ammunition and weapons, stop giving training. Pakistan decides over peace or violence: as long as Pakistan supports terrorism, openly or covertly, there can&#8217;t be peace in J&K. Without peace, there can&#8217;t be a solution. 

D. Generally speaking, all agree that the Kashmir Valley is the &#8216;core component&#8217; of any permanent solution, and its voice has a dominant influence on the final outcome although no one seriously believes that resolving the Kashmir issue is only a matter of meeting Valley needs. The other regions of J&K and other constituencies of J&K factor equally in the final solution. 

In the end, the resolution of the Kashmir issue is like fitting the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. All pieces must fit together at about the same time. So it is to the benefit of Kashmiris from both sides of the LoC to raise voices on achieving an honourable solution at the same time. Accentuating issues on only one side, while ignoring or brushing away problems on the other side, actually helps both India and Pakistan because it ensures that J&K will never emerge as an independent nation. Sure, Pakistan and Valley based separatist leaders can talk about UN resolutions to gladden hearts of their constituencies, but on the ground things will not move by even an inch as has been the case since 1948. 

Independent J&K will not be feasible, even theoretically, unless and until all regions of J&K rise coherently to demand it. So, each region must engage with the other in a civil dialogue with mutual respect and with equal considerations. Failing that the status quo will continue, or worse, the Musharraf formula or a variant will be imposed by India and Pakistan and that will be it, 

E. Corruption adds to the misery, sufferings and alienation of the common Kashmiri and has a destabilising effect on the normal functioning of the civil society. Kashmiris who have responsible jobs in the police, in the judicial system, in the administration, etc. are supposed to look after the well functioning of the society. By indulging into corruption, they are betraying their own compatriots. It is high time that at all levels in J&K State a serious effort is made to tackle corruption. It is too easy to point to the Centre as being the origin of all evils. One should have the courage and the honesty to recognise the shortcomings in the own system and take the necessary steps to redress the situation. 

F. The peace process came to a standstill after the terrorist attack in Mumbai, in November 2008, involving Pakistani nationals trained by ISI and Pakistan Navy. Notwithstanding these hindrances, the composite dialogue must go on. One should not expect a short-term solution, this can only be reached through small steps. 

G. The dissident leaders insist that the Kashmiris must be taken into confidence. This is a justified demand, the question however is who should represent the population of J&K in all its segments and differences. On the other hand, most of these leaders do not have a solution. &#8216;Let a tripartite dialogue start and a solution will emerge automatically&#8217;, is their view. 

H. The Kashmiri Pandits are the original Kashmiri speaking inhabitants of the Valley. They were hounded out of the Valley by militancy in 1990: some 500.000 of them fled to safer places. This exodus changed drastically the demographic composition of the population in the Valley. After more than twenty years, the return of the Kashmiri Pandits is more and more blurred. Nevertheless, they have their emotional attachment with their birth ground, their roots. They only can return when peace is there and when the rule of law, not the rule of majority is re-installed. 

I. There is no doubt that human rights violations are being committed by the security forces and by the militants. There is also no doubt that not all cases of human rights violations committed by the security forces are disclosed or prosecuted. It is also a fact that the security forces always are blamed if something happens. Dissident leaders do not mention and are not critical on human rights violations committed by militants. On the other hand, security forces should show restraint in controlling demonstrations: firing on unarmed civilians, even if they are pelting stones or attacking them, should be allowed only in extreme situations. 

J. The Kashmiris expected a lot of the Government headed by Chief Minister Omar Abdullah: he is young, has a vision, hard working, honest, listening to the demands of the people and paying attention to their basic needs. The challenges are multiple: eradicate corruption and improve the functioning of the administration, the educational system, health care, etc. Terrorism must be tackled. The government must bring back secularism, mutual respect. Due to the prevailing security situation a lot of energy is spent to redress the law and order situation. 

K. J&K State is a trouble tormented state for the last twenty years. Especially in the Valley, the youth grew up in a violent environment. They grew up with the presence of so many security forces, with encounters between militants and security forces, with search and cordon off operations, with human rights violations committed by security forces and militants, with the calls for strikes, harthals, demonstrations, shut downs, etc.. Day by day, they witnessed all this for the last twenty years. They didn&#8217;t have a normal environment where youth can grow up to a responsible adult. Violence became a part of their &#8216;normal&#8217; life. This includes stone pelting, provocation of security forces: these are the games they learned to play. Even if peace returns and a lasting peaceful solution has been worked out it will take years to re-educate the youth and to bring them about respect for moral values. 

L. It is often stressed that private industries should come to J&K, as they can create many jobs. This is only possible if prospects for a lasting peace are there. Private entrepreneurs only have faith in a peaceful solution. if there is no peace there will be no investment: this goes hand in gloves. Prof. Nisar Ali, senior professor of economics at Kashmir University and a renowned economist of the State believes that the problem of unemployment can&#8217;t be solved only by attracting private industries: &#8216;The problem of unemployment is basically from the educated lot of the State, who want &#8216;white collar&#8217; jobs (= government jobs) and do not consider other options. J&K is the only State that provides government employment to over 500.000 people, highest in the country, while as in other Indian states it is considerably less. The Government therefore has reached its saturation and can&#8216;t, realistically, absorb the chunk of unemployed youth. The thing that people here want and consider government job as the final word is really aggravating the problem which needs to be tackled on all fronts beginning from changing the mindsets of the people&#8217;. 

M. *The cry for the right of self-determination by some parties in the Valley is supported by Pakistan. However, accession to Pakistan is the only accepted option. Indeed, according to the Azad J&K, Interim Constitution Act, 1974, Par 7. (2): &#8216;No person or political party in Azad J&K shall be permitted to propagate against, or take part in activities prejudicial or detrimental to, the ideology of the State&#8217;s accession to Pakistan&#8217;. *In this regard the Strategic Foresight Group stated: &#8216;To the outside world, it is projected that Pakistan is supporting a struggle for self-determination for the people of Kashmir. Within the closed-door precincts of General Head Quarters of the Pakistani Army in Rawalpindi, Kashmir has a different meaning. It is most aptly summarised by Syed Salahuddin, chairman of the United Jihad Council, as he often assures the leaders of Pakistan that the Kashmir youth are fighting a war to help Pakistan secure its lifeline (= securing access to the water resources of Kashmir).&#8217; 

General (retd) Tariq Nizami, former Secretary of Kashmir Liberation Cell highlighted the real interests of Pakistan as follows: &#8216;*Kashmir is a primary source of water for the parched lands of the Pakistani peninsula*. There are daily reports of the perpetual wrangling between Sindh and Punjab over water sharing. If utter political ineptitude is displayed by the Pakistan government on the Kashmir issue, it would not only lead to Pakistan relinquishing control over Kashmir but would also lead to a gradual secession of Sindh from Pakistan.&#8217; 

*N. Pakistan has no stand in J&K. Pakistan invaded J&K and is at the origin of the de facto partitioning of the State. As early as 13 August 1948 the UN Commission for India and Pakistan requested Pakistan to withdraw its troops from the State as a pre-condition for organising the plebiscite. The same Commission in its resolution of 5 January 1949 repeated this request. Until this date, Pakistan has not withdrawn its armed forces and consequently the plebiscite has not been held.* 

Dr Shabir Choudhry's blog: "Pakistan has No Stand in J&K"

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## TechLahore

Is there a real media news source? On a subject like this, a blog post won't quite do.

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## riju78

TechLahore said:


> Is there a real media news source? On a subject like this, a blog post won't quite do.



how come riaz haq's (a)musings on india's poverty, toilets, $2dollar a day and even peepli live get all the mileage here??

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## KS

*EDIT:*Since DNA was considered a propaganda source,I am re-opening the thread with one of the most vocal-critic of India - Kashmir Dispatch.

hope that is also not a propaganda source.
---------------------------------------------------------

Amanullah Khan led JKLF to launch 'Quit Kashmir Campaign' in PaK

*Rawalpindi, September 30:* The Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) faction led by Ammanullah Khan Thursday said, "for re-unification and complete independence of Jammu Kashmir State, it has declared *to expand the Quit Kashmir movement, launched in Indian Kashmir to the Pakistani Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan* so as to make it a strong unified voice of the entire Jammu Kashmir State."

The party has announced a protest calendar 'to drive a popular support for a concerted movement' in Pakistan administered Kashmir (PaK) from Sept 30 and sit-in programmes between Oct 22 to Oct 27 at different places close to the Line of Control (LoC).

This was decided in the meeting of the JKLF Central Committee held in its Central Information Office at Rawalpindi, Chaired by Sardar Saghir Ahmad Khan and attended by Amanullah Khan, the Chief Patron of the organization besides the other leaders of JKLF.

In a press release issued from here, it is said *JKLF will hold a nation-wide protest demonstrations at all District Headquarters, Colleges and University Campuses in Pakistan Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan 'to drive the popular support for Quit-Kashmir Movement* aimed at to express their strong will and determination and to consolidate the otherwise suppressed national aspirations for re-unification and complete independence of the entire State'.


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## FreekiN

Okay. You got a Belgium beersman guy and we got Azerbaijan. 

Great.



riju78 said:


> how come riaz haq's (a)musings on india's poverty, toilets, $2dollar a day and even peepli live get all the mileage here??



he uses citations.

well at least thats what i remember

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## sasuke

Even if it's not a report. The article summarizes the difficult tasks that Kashmiris have infront of them. 

Good article.


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## karan.1970

TechLahore said:


> Is there a real media news source? On a subject like this, a blog post won't quite do.



Its there on a bunch of sites replicated verbatim. Leave it to you to keep or delete..

Hope we follow the same logic when Riaz quotes articles from his blogs down the line...

The Kashmir TELEGRAPH - Views :: Opinion :: Analysis - A Kashmir Bachao Andolan Publication

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## sasuke

self delete


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## riju78

FreekiN said:


> Okay. You got a Belgium beersman guy and we got Azerbaijan.
> 
> Great.
> 
> 
> 
> he uses citations.
> 
> well at least thats what i remember



well he chooses and picks and twists the information to suit his blog..and he has been debunked many times in his threads.. 
but i dont think thats the point of discussion here..

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## GUNNER

Karthic Sri said:


> *EDIT:*Since DNA was considered a propaganda source,I am re-opening the thread with one of the most vocal-critic of India - Kashmir Dispatch.
> 
> hope that is also not a propaganda source.



But where does the story say *Now separatists want Pak to Quit Kashmir* ?

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## KS

GUNNER said:


> But where does the story say *Now separatists want Pak to Quit Kashmir* ?



Arey bhai...what else can a "Quit Kashmir" movement in the Pakistan side of Kashmir mean.?


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## Perceptron

TechLahore said:


> Is there a real media news source? On a subject like this, a blog post won't quite do.


Okay, you want a Source, you got it. You can read the entire study tour of Paul Beersmans *here*.

What is mentioned here is only the conclusion (which is the logically the most important thing to be quoted). Am citing it again for you in Verbatim.


> This concludes the long list of meetings, visits and interviews.
> 
> 3. CONCLUSIONS
> a. J&K, as it was before partition in 1947, is at present under the rule of three countries:
> (1) China: Aksai Chin and a territory of 5.180 km2 ceded by Pakistan to China;
> (2) India: J&K State comprising Jammu-region, the Kashmir-Valley and Ladakh (Kargil and Leh districts);
> (3) Pakistan: Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan (Northern Areas).
> The population of these regions is totally different from each other: culture, history, traditions, language, religion, etc.
> 
> b. In order to find a permanent solution a dialogue is necessary on three levels, as we emphasise already since so many years:
> (1) bilateral level: between India and Pakistan;
> (2) national level: between the Government of India, the J&K State Government and the representatives of the civil society of the three regions;
> (3) internal level: between the different regions of J&K.
> 
> c. Priority must be given to end the sufferings of the Kashmiris. This can only be realised by stopping violence and misleading people. They want to have a future and jobs for themselves, for their children. After 20 years of militancy, it is high time to give growing up generations a chance to have a normal youth and education. Violence has been rejected as an instrument for seeking a solution. Pakistan should stop cross-border terrorism and cross-border infiltration, stop sending money, ammunition and weapons, stop giving training. Pakistan decides over peace or violence: as long as Pakistan supports terrorism, openly or covertly, there cant be peace in J&K. Without peace, there cant be a solution.
> 
> d. Generally speaking, all agree that the Kashmir Valley is the core component of any permanent solution, and its voice has a dominant influence on the final outcome although no one seriously believes that resolving the Kashmir issue is only a matter of meeting Valley needs. The other regions of J&K and other constituencies of J&K factor equally in the final solution. In the end, the resolution of the Kashmir issue is like fitting the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. All pieces must fit together at about the same time. So it is to the benefit of Kashmiris from both sides of the LoC to raise voices on achieving an honourable solution at the same time. Accentuating issues on only one side, while ignoring or brushing away problems on the other side, actually helps both India and Pakistan because it ensures that J&K will never emerge as an independent nation. Sure, Pakistan and Valley based separatist leaders can talk about UN resolutions to gladden hearts of their constituencies, but on the ground things will not move by even an inch as has been the case since 1948. Independent J&K will not be feasible, even theoretically, unless and until all regions of J&K rise coherently to demand it. So, each region must engage with the other in a civil dialogue with mutual respect and with equal considerations. Failing that the status quo will continue, or worse, the Musharraf formula or a variant will be imposed by India and Pakistan and that will be it,
> 
> e. Corruption adds to the misery, sufferings and alienation of the common Kashmiri and has a destabilising effect on the normal functioning of the civil society. Kashmiris who have responsible jobs in the police, in the judicial system, in the administration, etc. are supposed to look after the well functioning of the society. By indulging into corruption, they are betraying their own compatriots. It is high time that at all levels in J&K State a serious effort is made to tackle corruption. It is too easy to point to the Centre as being the origin of all evils. One should have the courage and the honesty to recognise the shortcomings in the own system and take the necessary steps to redress the situation.
> 
> f. The peace process came to a standstill after the terrorist attack in Mumbai, in November 2008, involving Pakistani nationals trained by ISI and Pakistan Navy. Notwithstanding these hindrances, the composite dialogue must go on. One should not expect a short-term solution, this can only be reached through small steps.
> 
> g. The dissident leaders insist that the Kashmiris must be taken into confidence. This is a justified demand, the question however is who should represent the population of J&K in all its segments and differences. On the other hand, most of these leaders do not have a solution. Let a tripartite dialogue start and a solution will emerge automatically, is their view.
> 
> *h. The Kashmiri Pandits are the original Kashmiri speaking inhabitants of the Valley. They were hounded out of the Valley by militancy in 1990: some 500.000 of them fled to safer places. This exodus changed drastically the demographic composition of the population in the Valley. After more than twenty years, the return of the Kashmiri Pandits is more and more blurred. Nevertheless, they have their emotional attachment with their birth ground, their roots. They only can return when peace is there and when the rule of law, not the rule of majority is reinstalled.*
> 
> i. There is no doubt that human rights violations are being committed by the security forces and by the militants. There is also no doubt that not all cases of human rights violations committed by the security forces are disclosed or prosecuted. It is also a fact that the security forces always are blamed if something happens. Dissident leaders do not mention and are not critical on human rights violations committed by militants. On the other hand, security forces should show restraint in controlling demonstrations: firing on unarmed civilians, even if they are pelting stones or attacking them, should be allowed only in extreme situations.
> 
> j. The Kashmiris expected a lot of the Government headed by Chief Minister Omar Abdullah: he is young, has a vision, hard working, honest, listening to the demands of the people and paying attention to their basic needs. The challenges are multiple: eradicate corruption and improve the functioning of the administration, the educational system, health care, etc. Terrorism must be tackled. The government must bring back secularism, mutual respect. Due to the prevailing security situation a lot of energy is spent to redress the law and order situation.
> 
> k. J&K State is a trouble tormented state for the last twenty years. Especially in the Valley, the youth grew up in a violent environment. They grew up with the presence of so many security forces, with encounters between militants and security forces, with search and cordon off operations, with human rights violations committed by security forces and militants, with the calls for strikes, harthals, demonstrations, shut downs, etc.. Day by day, they witnessed all this for the last twenty years. They didnt have a normal environment where youth can grow up to a responsible adult. Violence became a part of their normal life. This includes stone pelting, provocation of security forces: these are the games they learned to play. Even if peace returns and a lasting peaceful solution has been worked out it will take years to re-educate the youth and to bring them about respect for moral values.
> 
> l. It is often stressed that private industries should come to J&K, as they can create many jobs. This is only possible if prospects for a lasting peace are there. Private entrepreneurs only have faith in a peaceful solution. if there is no peace there will be no investment: this goes hand in gloves. Prof. Nisar Ali, senior professor of economics at Kashmir University and a renowned economist of the State believes that the problem of unemployment cant be solved only by attracting private industries: The problem of unemployment is basically from the educated lot of the State, who want white collar jobs (= government jobs) and do not consider other options. J&K is the only State that provides government employment to over 500.000 people, highest in the country, while as in other Indian states it is considerably less. The Government therefore has reached its saturation and cant, realistically, absorb the chunk of unemployed youth. The thing that people here want and consider government job as the final word is really aggravating the problem which needs to be tackled on all fronts beginning from changing the mindsets of the people.
> 
> p. The cry for the right of self-determination by some parties in the Valley is supported by Pakistan. However, accession to Pakistan is the only accepted option. Indeed, according to the Azad J&K, Interim Constitution Act, 1974, Par 7. (2): No person or political party in Azad J&K shall be permitted to propagate against, or take part in activities prejudicial or detrimental to, the ideology of the States accession to Pakistan. In this regard the Strategic Foresight Group (http://strategicforsight.com ) stated: To the outside world, it is projected that Pakistan is supporting a struggle for self-determination for the people of Kashmir. Within the closed-door precincts of General Head Quarters of the Pakistani Army in Rawalpindi, Kashmir has a different meaning. It is most aptly summarised by Syed Salahuddin, chairman of the United Jihad Council, as he often assures the leaders of Pakistan that the Kashmir youth are fighting a war to help Pakistan secure its lifeline (= securing access to the water resources of Kashmir). General (retd) Tariq Nizami, former Secretary of Kashmir Liberation Cell highlighted the real interests of Pakistan as follows: Kashmir is a primary source of water for the parched lands of the Pakistani peninsula. There are daily reports of the perpetual wrangling between Sindh and Punjab over water sharing. If utter political ineptitude is displayed by the Pakistan government on the Kashmir issue, it would not only lead to Pakistan relinquishing control over Kashmir but would also lead to a gradual secession of Sindh from Pakistan.
> 
> *q. Pakistan has no stand in J&K. Pakistan invaded J&K and is at the origin of the de facto partitioning of the State. As early as 13 August 1948 the UN Commission for India and Pakistan requested Pakistan to withdraw its troops from the State as a pre-condition for organising the plebiscite. The same Commission in its resolution of 5 January 1949 repeated this request. Until this date, Pakistan has not withdrawn its armed forces and consequently the plebiscite has not been held.
> *



In addition, you can actually visit the *BASJAK* site and read the articles for yourself.

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## GUNNER

Karthic Sri said:


> what else can a "Quit Kashmir" movement in the Pakistan side of Kashmir mean.?



So you are assuming...right?

It could mean other things !


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## Areesh

Well it is his perspective. How biased/unbiased, credible,incredible is debatable. Apparently doesn't look like a "study" tour of IOK but Bharati govt propaganda ministry.


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## KS

GUNNER said:


> So you are assuming...right?



2+2 = 4 is not assumption.

Can you enlighten me of the other possible inferences.?


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## anurag_singh

The stand of Amanullah Khan :- Independent Kashmir.
Everybody knows it.


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## TheWarriorIndian

Karthic Sri said:


> 2+2 = 4 is not assumption.
> 
> Can you enlighten me of the other possible inferences.?



Buddy, 1+1 =3 by Using *"We two ours One"* Principle , So that is Just not obvious too I guess, what say???


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## GUNNER

Karthic Sri said:


> Can you enlighten me of the other possible inferences.?



Let's see.

1. If i were the editor of The Nation, the headline could be;

*'Quit Kashmir movement to be launched against India' *

2. The current headline would suit a rightist Indian paper.

3. From a neutral point of view;

*Seperatists ask both India and Pakistan to quit Kashmir*

4. Highly unlikey but:

*Movement against Chinese occupation of Kashmir*

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## Perceptron

Areesh said:


> Well it is his perspective. How biased/unbiased, credible,incredible is debatable. Apparently doesn't look like a "study" tour of IOK but Bharati govt propaganda ministry.



This is exactly the reason why Intolerance and Conspiracy Theories are rife in Pakistan ; When you have a respected representative of a neutral solidarity group who reaches out to the APHC, JKLF, LAHDC-K, LUTF, the PDP and finally the PDP and the NC, and gives out his conclusion, the solution however stooped in reality will not be acceptable to people in the Land of the Pure. Then they start living in Denial and claim it as a RAW-CIA-MOSSAD conspiracy or a Zionist propaganda.

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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Well it is his perspective. How biased/unbiased, credible,incredible is debatable. Apparently doesn't look like a "study" tour of IOK but Bharati govt propaganda ministry.



I think he belongs to the same group that the Pakistan's favourite Indian Arundhati Roy belongs to..

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## TaimiKhan

what a show by the Indians, jumping upto the Pakistan related material, while neglecting the more striking material about the Indian occupation. 

No matter what you or this above guy has to say, the Pakistani flags are raised in Indian occupied Kashmir, people are out on the street against Indian occupation on the Indian occupied side, plus all the barbarity, killings, rapes, burnings happen on that side of the occupied land, not here. 

So, whine as much as you like, facts and figures are totally different then what Indians have to say.

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## Areesh

Perceptron said:


> This is exactly the reason why Intolerance and Conspiracy Theories are rife in Pakistan ; When you have a respected representative of a neutral solidarity group who reaches out to the APHC, JKLF, LAHDC-K, LUTF, the PDP and finally the PDP and the NC, and gives out his conclusion, the solution however stooped in reality will not be acceptable to people in the Land of the Pure. Then they start living in Denial and claim it as a RAW-CIA-MOSSAD conspiracy or a Zionist propaganda.



If some one asks for the credibility of the writer than he believes in conspiracy theory? Lolzzz


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## Perceptron

TaimiKhan said:


> what a show by the Indians, jumping upto the Pakistan related material, while neglecting the more striking material about the Indian occupation.
> 
> *No matter what you or this above guy has to say, the Pakistani flags are raised in Indian occupied Kashmir, people are out on the street against Indian occupation on the Indian occupied side, plus all the barbarity, killings, rapes, burnings happen on that side of the occupied land, not here.*
> 
> So, whine as much as you like, facts and figures are totally different then what Indians have to say.



Okay, then why does the Conclusion of his study include the Cross-border Terrorism by Pakistan, including the disruption of normal life by the Terrorists ? I for one, also consider the Unemployment, Corruption and Human-rights violations by the IA ; But why are you antipathetic when such an article points out that Independence of Kashmir is not an option ?

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## karan.1970

TaimiKhan said:


> what a show by the Indians, jumping upto the Pakistan related material, while neglecting the more striking material about the Indian occupation.
> 
> No matter what you or this above guy has to say, the Pakistani flags are raised in Indian occupied Kashmir, people are out on the street against Indian occupation on the Indian occupied side, plus all the barbarity, killings, rapes, burnings happen on that side of the occupied land, not here.
> 
> So, whine as much as you like, facts and figures are totally different then what Indians have to say.



There is a recent news article about a Quit Kashmir movement being started in Pakistan too.. Isnt it??

Show or not, today Pakistan has a lower staying power than India in this situation. There are just too many distractions that PA and GoP are struggling with. Looks like things are being made Interesting...


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## KS

GUNNER said:


> Let's see.
> 
> 1. If i were the editor of The Nation, the headline could be;
> 
> *'Quit Kashmir movement to be launched against India' *



Not this. Because of this line.



> so as to make it a strong unified voice of the *entire Jammu Kashmir State*."







GUNNER said:


> 3. From a neutral point of view;
> 
> *Seperatists ask both India and Pakistan to quit Kashmir*



That is what it is.




GUNNER said:


> 4. Highly unlikey but:
> 
> *Movement against Chinese occupation of Kashmir*



Full J&K includes the part occupied by Chinese also.


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> There is a recent news article about a Quit Kashmir movement being started in Pakistan too.. Isnt it??
> 
> Show or not, today Pakistan has a lower staying power than India in this situation. There are just too many distractions that PA and GoP are struggling with. Looks like things are being made Interesting...



Well check that thread. The so called news you are talking about can be interpreted anyways. As done by Gunner. 

Nothing is going to be interesting except the situation in IOK which can go on boil anytime.

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## Perceptron

Areesh said:


> If some one asks for the credibility of the writer than he believes in conspiracy theory? Lolzzz


I don't get it ; How do you detect and measure the Credibility of an Author ? Is his credibility not seen from his previous associations of Similar Study tours ? Or is his credibility not seen from how many sides of the Story he listened to ?

Let me ask you a question, Did you read the entire content of his Study ? Or were you just put off by his conclusion. From the entire article it seems to be that he has quoted most of the people ad verbatim. So shouldn't that give an indication on his unbiased reporting of statements ? Similar surveys have also been conducted and the conclusions corroborated by the EU Parliament ; You can have a look of that too and form your own assumptions from the same (which i believe is not going to change).


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Well check that thread. The so called news you are talking about can be interpreted anyways. As done by Gunner.
> 
> Nothing is going to be interesting except the situation in IOK which can go on boil anytime.



Do see the response to Gunner as well.. Or stay in denial. As I said, India's capabiliity to absorb that boil is significantly higher than Pakistan at this time.

The war of thousand cuts has boomeranged somewhat..

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## karan.1970

Also Attaching some interesting exerpts from the EU parliament report of 2007 on the 2 parts of Kashmir. Hope that is not considered to be lacking credibility.. 


http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2004_2009/documents/pr/640/640763/640763en.pdf

*Political situation: the aspirations of the people*

14. Congratulates India and Pakistan on the peace moves currently under way, and welcomes the fact that bilateral talks, put on hold for three months after the July 2006 bombings in Mumbai, have re-started; stresses the need for the region, the EU and the international
community to support the current bilateral talks and for a further strengthening of exchanges, with the aim of generating a more stable and prosperous future for the people of Jammu and Kashmir;

15. Has warmly welcomed the CBMs initiated by India and Pakistan, which are achieving a moderate degree of success in reducing tension and suspicion on both sides; 

16. Draws attention to the fact that ordinary Kashmiris, by virtue of the humanitarian situation after the earthquake, are now becoming intimately involved in the modalities of the peace process, through the exchanges taking place and the free movement (albeit still
limited) across the LoC; 

*17. Regrets, however, that Pakistan has consistently failed to fulfil its obligations to introduce meaningful and representative democratic structures in AJK; notes in particular the continuing absence of Kashmiri representation in the Pakistan National Assembly, the
fact that AJK is governed through the Ministry of Kashmir Affairs in Islamabad, that Pakistan officials dominate the Kashmir Council and that the Chief Secretary, the Inspector-General of Police, the Accountant-General and the Finance Secretary are all from Pakistan; 

abhors the provision in the 1974 Interim Constitution which forbids any political activity that is not in accordance with the doctrine of Jammu and Kashmir as part of Pakistan and obliges any candidate for a parliamentary seat in AJK to sign a declaration of loyalty to that effect; is concerned that the Gilgit-Baltistan region enjoys no form of democratic representation whatsoever;*

18. Recognises that Pakistan finds itself in a particularly complex situation with pressure from many sources; nevertheless:

*- deeply regrets that the lack of a national political will to address basic needs provision, political participation and the rule of law in AJK has left women there in a desperate situation following the earthquake;*

- highlights particularly, in this context, the recent threats aimed at derailing planned amendments to the **** laws, and the repugnant Hudood Ordinances themselves which, despite the will of President Musharraf, have recently been reconfirmed by a national parliament in which neither the women nor the men of AJK have any representation; nonetheless welcomes and wholeheartedly supports the efforts made by reformist parliamentarians to repeal these abhorrent laws;

- notes too the difficult situation faced by homosexuals;

19. Urges the EU to take a firm stance against the abomination of the Hudood Ordinances and to revisit, critically, the 3rd Generation Cooperation Agreement it signed with Pakistan in 2004, Article 1 of which states very clearly that the Agreement must be based
on a true respect for human rights and the upholding of true democratic principles, given *that it is pre-eminently clear that Pakistan is not living up to its commitments, especiallyin AJK;*

*20. Urges Pakistan to revisit its concept of democratic accountability, minority and women's rights in AJK, which as elsewhere are key to improving conditions for the people and tackling the menace of terrorism;*

21. *Deplores documented human rights violations by the armed forces of India and the all too frequent incidents of terror and violence perpetrated by armed militant groups based in Pakistan*; strongly urges both sides to do all they can to address these violations;
welcomes Pakistan's public commitments to curb infiltration across the LoC by militants operating out of territory under its control, but believes it must take much stronger and more effective measures; welcomes the continued and determined commitment by President Musharraf to fighting terrorism, which, it is widely recognised, presents
enormous challenges; approves and supports multilateral and bilateral EU Member State aid to assist Pakistan in fighting terrorism and in making determined efforts to improve the lives of the people of AJK;


22. Recognises and supports the aspiration of the Kashmiri people for a significantly reduced military presence in the area; *points out, however, that meaningful demilitarisation can only take place alongside genuine action to neutralise the threat of infiltration of Jammu and Kashmir by militant outfits operating out of Pakistan;*

*23. Notes that while Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir enjoys a unique status under Article 370 of the Indian Constitution, granting it greater autonomy than other states in the Union, there remain deficiencies in practice with regard to human rights and direct
democracy; is pleased, therefore, to see recent moves in Jammu and Kashmir to strengthen democracy (as evidenced by the 75% turnout in recent local elections); *urges India's National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) to exercise its full mandate with regard to any suspected or documented violations and, to lend it even greater credibility, urges the NHRC to make good the absence of any human rights professionals on its governing board; looks forward to enhanced progress in this area, and to positive outcomes from the new laws on child labour and on women and violence;

24. Recognises the difficult living conditions of a number of groups, such as the migrant Pandits of the Kashmir Valley; urges that discrimination against them and other groups, particularly in employment, be addressed head on; suggests that such groups seek to empower themselves by establishing committees of their own elected representatives, ensuring that women and under-25s are properly represented;

25. Suggests that India consider granting Ladakh the same provincial status as that enjoyed by Jammu and Kashmir; hopes that the Kargil-Skardu trade route can be re-established as part of the CBM process and that the Ladakh/Northern Areas division can be bridged by
crossing points similar to those already established elsewhere along the LoC; suggests that India re-examine the issue of whether the people of Ladakh could also enjoy representation in the Rajya Sabha;

26. Urges India to renew its focus on Jammu and Kashmir, including job creation and measures to promote tourism, and to examine how the (forthcoming) EU-India partnership could help with the creation of new skills-based jobs, especially for youth;

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## GUNNER

Karthic Sri said:


> Not this. Because of this line.



Well, as i said Karthic... it depends on which side you are on. 

Regardless, the aim of the movement has not been clarified in the story and thus the title is misleading.


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## Developereo

No problem. We can find our own guy who will tour the region, interview all parties and his conclusion will miraculously match the Pakistani perspective.

Reminds me of the saying "the accused will get a fair trial before being hanged".


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## Malik Usman

*The population of these regions is totally different from each other: culture, history, traditions, language, religion, etc. *

Is the is a joke.................or lack of knowlege or some propoganda.........?

Well the population can be different in number of those region.....but culuture (Aviously its islamic culture that is same)..........And History abviously is the same...............and how come the region is different....

Total Bullshit lying...in everything.


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## RamGorur

I am quoting below relevant excerpts from Sir Zafarulla Khans speech at 464th UN Meeting on 8 February, 1950. He was making a case for Kashmirs accession with Pakistan and why it is of _absolutely vital importance_ that Kashmir acceded to Pakistan and not India. Yes, he forgot to mince a single word for independence of Kashmir. 


> there is another and an almost overwhelming economic factor that must be taken into account. It is this. *The three rivers  beginning at the top of the map, the Indus, the Jhelum and the Chenab  which flow from Kashmir into Pakistan, control to a very large extent the agricultural economy of Pakistan itself*.
> 
> []
> 
> If Kashmir were to accede to India, this supply would be cut off altogether.


He then goes on illustrate why Kashmir is of vital importance to the defence of Pakistan.



> What about the strategic factors affecting the situation ?
> 
> []
> 
> If Kashmir acceded to India, the whole of that flank would be threatened and broken. The border of Kashmir for quite a long distance, more than 150 miles of this railway and road, runs parallel to the railway and road within a few miles. Now, what would happen ? Pakistan might as well throw in its hand so far as making any preparations for defence is concerned. *India would obtain direct access to the tribal areas and, through the tribal areas, on to Afghanistan.* Pakistan's position would become absolutely untenable.
> 
> []
> 
> If we were threatened on this line, if we were always threatened on our flanks, what attention could we pay to the building up and the maintenance of our defence arrangements along the frontier? It would lay a burden on Pakistan which Pakistan could not possibly undertake to bear.


He then goes on to conclude.



> Look at it, then, from any point of view one may choose: India is under no necessity nor compulsion to require or to need the accession of Kashmir to itself. India has merely entered upon a gamble. If it succeeds in that gamble, it can crush and break Pakistan  and that is the object of that gamble. *India does not need Kashmir from the point of view of any of its necessities*. The possession of Kashmir can add nothing to the economy of India or to the strategic security of India. *On the other hand, it is vital for Pakistan.* If Kashmir should accede to India, Pakistan might as well, from both the economic and the strategic points view, become a feudatory of India or cease to exist as an independent sovereign State. That is the stake of the two sides; these are the considerations.
> 
> []
> 
> What we are concerned with is this: that the accession of Kashmir to India means practically nothing to India on the basis of these factors that I have been discussing, but is of* absolutely vital importance to Pakistan*.


So much for independent Kashmir. So much for the wish of the people of Kashmir. So much for Kashmir is for Kashmiris. Pakistan _needs_ Kashmir. Therefore they must _possess_ it. Thats all that there is to it. It is not a coincidence that AJK Interim Constitution has the following clause:

_No person or political party in Azad J&K shall be permitted to propagate against, or take part in activities prejudicial or detrimental to, the ideology of the States accession to Pakistan_.

But I must give credit to GoP. They have been able to not only successfully hid from their constituents, their true stand on Kashmir but have actually managed to mislead them to believe the exact opposite of the truth. Sadly, their ruse doesnt work on the rest of the world.

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## Perceptron

Developereo said:


> No problem. We can find our own guy who will tour the region, interview all parties and his conclusion will miraculously match the Pakistani perspective.
> 
> Reminds me of the saying "the accused will get a fair trial before being hanged".


Absolutely, get your man, your judge, your jury and oh, don't forget your executioner too in this orgy. And when they too contend that Pakistan has no stand in J&K, then you can go ahead and proclaim it as a Zionist propaganda against Pakistan or a pro-Indian media which is at work here. Which reminds me of another saying


> *There are few nudities so objectionable as the naked truth.*

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## RamGorur

Developereo said:


> No problem. We can find our own guy who will tour the region, interview all parties and his conclusion will miraculously match the Pakistani perspective.


Which Pakistani perspective? The real one or the make belief one.

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## softtec

GUNNER said:


> Well, as i said Karthic... it depends on which side you are on.
> 
> Regardless, the aim of the movement has not been clarified in the story and thus the title is misleading.



Sir, I think title is correct.We all know that separatists want India to quit Kashmir.This article says that "now they want Pak *also *to quite Kashmir"


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## Perceptron

Malik Usman said:


> Is the is a joke.................or lack of knowlege or some propoganda.........?
> 
> Well the population can be different in number of those region.....but culuture *(Aviously its islamic culture that is same)*..........And History abviously is the same...............and how come the region is different....
> 
> Total Bullshit lying...in everything.


Please do not pass moronic comments and associate culture with Religion ; The culture of GB has much more in common with Ladakh and Tibet (especially the Language and the Food customs) rather than Kashmir and especially Pakistan. Similarly Kashmiri (especially the style of writing) originated from Devanagiri. So yes, all in all, i would say that food habits, languages, and customs vary from place to place ; Except for the factor for Religion (which is why the hoopla has been prevalent in Kashmir), there is no possible commonality amongst the various sectors.


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> Do see the response to Gunner as well.. Or stay in denial. As I said, India's capabiliity to absorb that boil is significantly higher than Pakistan at this time.
> 
> The war of thousand cuts has boomeranged somewhat..



Yeah I read the responses. Very lame. And it is about denial than bharatis with 100+ killings of young kids they are ecpecting a. "independence" movement in AJK. Lolzzz. Denial or what?


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Yeah I read the responses. Very lame. And it is about denial than bharatis with 100+ killings of young kids they are ecpecting a. "independence" movement in AJK. Lolzzz. Denial or what?



No denial of the turmoil in J&K in last 3 months. We have seen much worse before. So no big deal.

100+ civilians dies.. Very unfortunate... But thats what happens in a conflict zone. 

And no one is expecting an independence movement in PO K. Its just that it looks India is paying back in the same coin. Give it some more time.


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> No denial of the turmoil in J&K in last 3 months. We have seen much worse before. So no big deal.
> 
> 100+ civilians dies.. Very unfortunate... But thats what happens in a conflict zone.
> 
> And no one is expecting an independence movement in PO K.* Its just that it looks India is paying back in the same coin. Give it some more time.*



Lollzzz. India is trying to pay back in the same coin when it's own occupied coin slipping out of hand. 

A case of wet dreams. ... No big deal for you if their is trouble in IOK so let's keep it on the boil and keep increasing the temperature until it gains what it wants. Freedom from Bharati occupation.


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## Contrarian

TaimiKhan said:


> what a show by the Indians, jumping upto the Pakistan related material, while neglecting the more striking material about the Indian occupation.
> 
> No matter what you or this above guy has to say, the Pakistani flags are raised in Indian occupied Kashmir, people are out on the street against Indian occupation on the Indian occupied side, plus all the barbarity, killings, rapes, burnings happen on that side of the occupied land, not here.
> 
> So, whine as much as you like, facts and figures are totally different then what Indians have to say.



They can keep raising any flag they want for the next 100 years, wont make the slightest difference. Not an inch of Kashmir will be ceeded.

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## RobbieS

Malik Usman said:


> *The population of these regions is totally different from each other: culture, history, traditions, language, religion, etc. *
> 
> Is the is a joke.................or lack of knowlege or some propoganda.........?
> 
> Well the population can be different in number of those region.....but culuture (Aviously its islamic culture that is same)..........And History abviously is the same...............and how come the region is different....
> 
> Total Bullshit lying...in everything.



You clearly havent visited Kashmir. Ask any Kashmiri, he will tell you the same thing. Populations in AJK, Kashmir valley, Jammu, Ladakh and kargil and Gilgit; they all have a different ethnic, linguistic and at times religious compositions.


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Lollzzz. India is trying to pay back in the same coin when it's own occupied coin slipping out of hand.
> 
> A case of wet dreams.



As I said.. Give it some time. Talk about J&K slipping when the situation in J&K is worse than what it has been in the past. As you would have seen the table I posted earlier, the situation today is not even a fraction of what it has been in the past. When we could handle that, we can handle this too. OTOH, things on the other side of the border are not looking too good and are still on a downward spiral..


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## somebozo

> A. J&K, as it was before partition in 1947, is at present under the rule of three countries:


Just with his starting line one can hell his knowledge and competetncy.
Also the prepartition Kashmir did not have well defined boundary nor the Maharaja had his control over the entire state.


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> As I said.. Give it some time. Talk about J&K slipping when the situation in J&K is worse than what it has been in the past. As you would have seen the table I posted earlier, the situation today is not even a fraction of what it has been in the past. When we could handle that, we can handle this too. *OTOH, things on the other side of the border are not looking too good and are still on a downward spiral.*.



Got to repeat your favorite phrase. Umeed par duniya qaim hai. I don't know what is your definition of "too good". May be curfews,stonepelting and arson. Yeah in that case situations isn't "too good". 

---------- Post added at 08:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 PM ----------




somebozo said:


> Just with his starting line one can hell his knowledge and competetncy.
> Also the prepartition Kashmir did not have well defined boundary nor the Maharaja had his control over the entire state.



Another Slegg Harrison in the making.


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Got to repeat your favorite phrase. Umeed par duniya qaim hai. I don't know what is your definition of "too good". May be curfews,stonepelting and arson. Yeah in that case situations isn't "too good".
> 
> Another Slegg Harrison in the making.



Umeed pe duniya kayam hai?? Good.. I knew I would get through to you one of these days 

No No... the stone pelting and curfews are on this side of the border. You guys have graduated above that to IED's and grenades long time back. In this department, we are just babes in the woods in front of you guys.. 

About what I mean by things not looking good, well all you have to do is read some of the hot threads about Pakistan going on in this forum..

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## KS

GUNNER said:


> Well, as i said Karthic... it depends on which side you are on.
> 
> Regardless, the aim of the movement has not been clarified in the story and thus the title is misleading.



It doesnt depend which side you are on - For the whole world Kashmir constitutes of Indian state of Jammu and kashmir,PHK,Northern Areas and the area occupied by China.

Does it make sense arguing about semantics or the messgae in the article.?


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## arihant

GUNNER said:


> Well, as i said Karthic... it depends on which side you are on.
> 
> Regardless, the aim of the movement has not been clarified in the story and thus the title is misleading.



It say's *Now*. Since we all know they always want India to leave J&K, they also want Pak to leave AZ and GB


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> Umeed pe duniya kayam hai?? Good.. I knew I would get through to you one of these days



Yup. You forced me to repeat your favorite phrase. Just because of your wet dream about AJK. No wet dream, I won't have used this copy righted phrase for you. 



> No No... the stone pelting and curfews are on this side of the border. You guys have graduated above that to IED's and grenades long time back. In this department, we are just babes in the woods in front of you guys..



But I thought we were talking about AJK. Never knew when Chattisgarh and some Bharati other states came into discussion.



> About what I mean by things not looking good, well all you have to do is read some of the hot threads about Pakistan going on in this forum..



I read them but don't create wet dreams out of those threads


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## TaimiKhan

Areesh said:


> Well check that thread. The so called news you are talking about can be interpreted anyways. As done by Gunner.
> 
> Nothing is going to be interesting except the situation in IOK which can go on boil anytime.



When it starts up, then talk, till then keep yourselves happy by reading the Indian news. 



malaymishra123 said:


> They can keep raising any flag they want for the next 100 years, wont make the slightest difference. Not an inch of Kashmir will be ceeded.



Yeah, with such brutal occupation, killings, rapes, burnings, don't think you guys will give an inch of land to the ones whom it belongs to. As you know well you guys can keep Kashmir only through brutality and not let the people of Kashmir decide for its future, had you people been human enough, then would have atleast done the plebiscite as promised by the Indian Ex-PM and let it be known what the people of Kashmir want.

So keep doing it, if not today, one day the real flag of the people of Kashmir will raise up. Till how long are you guys gonna keep killing, raping Kashmiris.


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## TaimiKhan

Perceptron said:


> Okay, then why does the Conclusion of his study include the Cross-border Terrorism by Pakistan, including the disruption of normal life by the Terrorists ? I for one, also consider the Unemployment, Corruption and Human-rights violations by the IA ; But why are you antipathetic when such an article points out that Independence of Kashmir is not an option ?



Well to him and you Indians, it seems terrorism, but to the people of Kashmir and us, its freedom struggle, plus as per UN its disputed region and your ex-PM also promised the people of Kashmir for the giving of their right, thus its more then enough to tell that these people of Kashmir need to have their say. 

And let the article say whatever it wants, to it, there might not be this option, but we haven't so far let go this option, nor has the people of Kashmir.


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## bandit

TaimiKhan said:


> And let the article say whatever it wants, to it, there might not be this option, but we haven't so far let go this option, nor has the people of Kashmir.



The article is stating the official position of the GoP, you do know that don't you? Individual opinions hardly count, those of the government do since it is taken to be the view of the majority of the country. Additionally all statements from Pakistan politicians or its military have always been for Kashmir to join Pakistan, never read a statement about Independence though. Zafarullah Khan almost seems pleading in his speech for Kashmir to join Pakistan.

Since you try to prove that the view of the common Pakistan is opposed to that of GoP and favors independence for J&K, it would be better to walk the talk and get independence as an option from GoP first and then lecture GoI about it. Try giving Pakistan controlled Kashmir independence and and you may prove that all that talk of independence isn't what it seems- hogwash.


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## arya

Karthic Sri said:


> 2+2 = 4 is not assumption.
> 
> Can you enlighten me of the other possible inferences.?



u r right dear 2+2=4 [Normaly]
but 2+2= 2[ M Garit]


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Yup. You forced me to repeat your favorite phrase. Just because of your wet dream about AJK. No wet dream, I won't have used this copy righted phrase for you.
> 
> But I thought we were talking about AJK. Never knew when Chattisgarh and some Bharati other states came into discussion.
> 
> I read them but don't create wet dreams out of those threads





Well, Nasamajh ko to samjhaya ja sakta hai, par jo samajh ke bhi na samjhe, ussko kaun samjhaaye..

Broaden your perspective.. Look around a little within Pakistan and you will know what I am talking about..


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## karan.1970

TaimiKhan said:


> When it starts up, then talk, till then keep yourselves happy by reading the Indian news.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, with such brutal occupation, killings, rapes, burnings, don't think you guys will give an inch of land to the ones whom it belongs to. As you know well you guys can keep Kashmir only through brutality and not let the people of Kashmir decide for its future, had you people been human enough, then would have atleast done the plebiscite as promised by the Indian Ex-PM and let it be known what the people of Kashmir want.
> 
> *So keep doing it, if not today, one day the real flag of the people of Kashmir will raise up. Till how long are you guys gonna keep killing, raping Kashmiris*.



1. Pakistan did not fullfill its committments that were a preequisite to the plebiscite. 
2. Do you mean this flag.. That is already up.. Isnt it?





3. I dont know about raping, but we surely are going to keep killing the illegal immigrants that cross into Kashmir from West..


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## karan.1970

TaimiKhan said:


> Well to him and you Indians, it seems terrorism, but to the people of Kashmir and us, its freedom struggle, plus as per UN its disputed region and your ex-PM also promised the people of Kashmir for the giving of their right, thus its more then enough to tell that these people of Kashmir need to have their say.
> 
> And let the article say whatever it wants, to it, there might not be this option, but we haven't so far let go this option, nor has the people of Kashmir.



As per UN, if its a disputed region then its not an occupied area that is looking for freedom. So Pakistan needs to clear its stand which it has not till date. Is it aquisition of Kashmir or its independence that Pakistan is looking for. Because the 2 options in the archaic UN resolution does not contain an option for freedom...


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> Well, Nasamajh ko to samjhaya ja sakta hai, par jo samajh ke bhi na samjhe, ussko kaun samjhaaye..
> 
> Broaden your perspective.. Look around a little within Pakistan and you will know what I am talking about..



Karan bhai main har achi baat samajh jata hoon siwai buri baaton kai jaisai app ka bharati pan. Yeh main samajh nahi sakta sorry. 

And I know what is happening but don't associate my day dreams with them like you.


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Karan bhai main har achi baat samajh jata hoon siwai buri baaton kai jaisai app ka bharati pan. Yeh main samajh nahi sakta sorry.
> 
> And I know what is happening but don't associate my day dreams with them like you.



My only dream about Pakistan is for it to come out of the clutches of militants and terrorists that seem to have gained foot holes in every corner. I dream about a day, when we can compete on who is progressing more instead of current cr@p of who has more aircrafts or whether JF 17 is the best thing since Scotch or if LCA will get more delayed etc.

But at times you have to come out of your dreams and face the reality so that you can realize your dreams. This is that moment for Pakistan. 

All the best for that.


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> My only dream about Pakistan is for it to come out of the clutches of militants and terrorists that seem to have gained foot holes in every corner. I dream about a day, when we can compete on who is progressing more instead of current cr@p of who has more aircrafts or whether JF 17 is the best thing since Scotch or if LCA will get more delayed etc.
> 
> *But at times you have to come out of your dreams and face the reality so that you can realize your dreams. This is that moment for Pakistan. *
> 
> All the best for that.



Thanks but we are already doing that.


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## Peshwa

TaimiKhan said:


> *Well to him and you Indians, it seems terrorism, but to the people of Kashmir and us, its freedom struggle, plus as per UN its disputed region* and your ex-PM also promised the people of Kashmir for the giving of their right, thus its more then enough to tell that these people of Kashmir need to have their say.
> 
> And let the article say whatever it wants, to it, there might not be this option, but we haven't so far let go this option, nor has the people of Kashmir.



There is only one definition of "Terrorism"....it is only in the Pakistan that there have become sub-categoris of the same?

You cannot expect us to rationalize with you when you justify terrorism in the name of "freedom movement" and disputed territory....because then it gives weight to every act of violence in the name of freedom....
Hence we didnt differentiate between a Khalistani and a Kashmiri terrorist and treated them with the same heavy handedness.....but seems Pakistanis like to play favourite with their "non state actors"


Since we are on the subject.....
*I realize you hate this question....but why is the BLA a terrorist org then? Arent they fighting for freedom? How is Balochistans freedom less important that Kashmir? What makes Kashmir so special or their case more legitimate to allow them freedom? *


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## Omar1984

karan.1970 said:


> *N. Pakistan has no stand in J&K. Pakistan invaded J&K and is at the origin of the de facto partitioning of the State. As early as 13 August 1948 the UN Commission for India and Pakistan requested Pakistan to withdraw its troops from the State as a pre-condition for organising the plebiscite. The same Commission in its resolution of 5 January 1949 repeated this request. Until this date, Pakistan has not withdrawn its armed forces and consequently the plebiscite has not been held.*
> 
> Dr Shabir Choudhry's blog: "Pakistan has No Stand in J&K"



Another blog from Choudhry saab posted by an indian.

If Pakistan withdraws from Azad Kashmir then india will most likely invade Azad Kashmir with its million troops. Thats why Pakistan cant withdraw from Azad Kashmir.

I agree that a plebiscite needs to be given to the people of Jammu & Kashmir, in all parts of Jammu & Kashmir.


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## Omar1984

Peshwa said:


> *I realize you hate this question....but why is the BLA a terrorist org then? Arent they fighting for freedom? How is Balochistans freedom less important that Kashmir? What makes Kashmir so special or their case more legitimate to allow them freedom? *



Again an indian bring Balochistan in a thread about Kashmir.

BLA are armed with weapons and openly killing people (Baloch and Non-Baloch), and they blow pipelines in their own province.

Kashmiris throw stones at indian police/troops, indian police/troops respond by firing at unarmed Kashmiris.

And unlike Kashmir, UN and the international community recognizes Balochistan as an integral part of Pakistan even india recognizes Balochistan as an integral part of Pakistan.


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## karan.1970

Omar1984 said:


> Another blog from Choudhry saab posted by an indian.
> 
> If Pakistan withdraws from Azad Kashmir then india will most likely invade Azad Kashmir with its million troops. Thats why Pakistan cant withdraw from Azad Kashmir.
> 
> I agree that a plebiscite needs to be given to the people of Jammu & Kashmir, in all parts of Jammu & Kashmir.



The contents are not by Choudhry saab ... However, even if they were, I find his writings very factual and to the point. Unlike a lot of other blogs you see floating around.

Seriously, the formal stand of GoI aside, even in the wildest of our dreams, no Indian would ever want to get stuck with any part of Pakistan in its current state. Posturing aside, if country was like a house, we would have UHauled away years back. But unfortunately thats not an option. So we are happy in our current state and have no intention of adding to our land size by attacking PO K, but have all the determination of not allowing anyone to try and take away a part as well.

Do what you will with that...


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## ambidex

Another support to India's typical complaint about Pakistan's stand on Kashmir.
...............
As far as problems in Kashmir is concerned then no nation bet on bunch of hot head teenage rioters but Pakistan does at present. On what Pakistan was betting before is another can of worms. But there is a chain of reaction as far as security situation in Kashmir is concerned. Pakistan on its convenience can opt not to mention about it, and can only accuse about the actions of security forces happening without provocation; which totally unfair. 
Fortunately India has been able to expose that chain of reactions very well to many significant nations around world; who have already lost the appetite to entertain such insurgency and militancy against any state.


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## karan.1970

Omar1984 said:


> Again an indian bring Balochistan in a thread about Kashmir.
> 
> BLA are armed with weapons and openly killing people (Baloch and Non-Baloch), and they blow pipelines in their own province.
> 
> Kashmiris throw stones at indian police/troops, indian police/troops respond by firing at unarmed Kashmiris.
> 
> And unlike Kashmir, UN and the international community recognizes Balochistan as part of Pakistan even india recognizes Balochistan as part of Pakistan.



So I will not go into the legitimacy of the BLA struggle here..However on your comment about BLA openly killing people and blowing pipelines.. Isnt this exactly what is being done to NATO vehicles by the folks who are getting accolades on this forum along with advice on how to maximize returns from those ventures. People however forget that while these attackers are buring the NATO fuel, the people getting killed are innocent Pakistani workers who are just driving the trucks being attacked..


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## Peshwa

Omar1984 said:


> Again an indian bring Balochistan in a thread about Kashmir.



Again a hypocrite Pakistani crutches on fake morality.....we meet again!



> BLA are armed with weapons and openly killing people (Baloch and Non-Baloch), and they blow pipelines in their own province.



Oh and LET is a humanitarian organization is it?

Just as you claim the Kashmiri are fighting for their right to "self-determination"....so are the BLA...both by resorting to vandalism and arson against the state.....why call one a terror org and the other a freedom movement? Because it suits you....how typical! 



> Kashmiris throw stones at indian police/troops, indian police/troops respond by firing at unarmed Kashmiris.



As opposed to Pakistani strategy of assasinating Baloch leaders to quell the revolt and using brute force to suppress the Baloch and their rights?....sound familiar?

Wouldnt be surprised why they decide to revolt!



> And unlike Kashmir, UN and the international community recognizes Balochistan as an integral part of Pakistan even india recognizes Balochistan as an integral part of Pakistan.



Freedom is as important to the Baloch as it is to the Kashmiris.....what makes the Kashmiris so special to get their own state?
What have the Kashmiris done to deserve freedom and not the Baloch?

My only point here is.....
If any settlement is to be made on Kashmir in an amicable manner, Pakistanis need to get out of this mindset that terrorism is the answer to Kashmir....
The sooner you understand that the existance of people like Hafiz Saeed, Lakhvi etc can only hurt our chances of peace...the closer we can get to Confidence building and eventually maybe a solution.

Both sides have equally bad cases of insurgencies....you cannot expect us to sympathize with your problems if you dont expect to rationalize with ours and remove the terror infrastructure of the LETs, JEMs, Jamaat Ud Daawas....instead of terming this suicide by your people as a "freedom movement"


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Kashmir is not Indias internal matter: Dr Fai​*
Washington, October 04 (KMS): The Executive Director of Kashmir Centre Washington, Dr Ghulam Nabi Fai, has said that Jammu and Kashmir is an internationally recognised disputed territory and not internal matter of India.

Dr Ghulam Nabi Fai was reacting to the recent assertion of the Indian Foreign Minister, S M Krishna that the elections in Indian occupied Kashmir were a plebiscite. In a statement in Washington, Dr Fai said that the Indian Foreign Ministers claim clearly flouted the UN Security Council resolution 91 of 1951 and resolution 122 of 1957 which clearly affirm that the convening of a Constituent Assembly as recommended by the General Council of the All Jammu and Kashmir National Conference and any action that Assembly might attempt to take to determine the future shape and affiliation of the entire State or any part thereof would not constitute a disposition of the State in accordance with the above principle. Therefore, Mr. Krishnas assertion that an election in Kashmir is a substitute for plebiscite is the negation of Indias international obligations, he said.

The Executive Director said, the only election acceptable to the people of Jammu and Kashmir is one which will be conducted and supervised by an impartial agency like the United Nations and which will take place in an atmosphere free of coercion and intimidation. He clarified that Kashmir was not and could not be regarded as an internal matter of India because under all international agreements, which were agreed by both India and Pakistan, negotiated by the United Nations, endorsed by the Security Council and accepted by the international community. Kashmir is a disputed territory and does not belong to any member state of the United Nations. If that is true, then the claim of Mr. Krishna that Kashmir is an internal matter of India does not stand, he added.

Dr Fai emphasized that as far as the third party intervention was concerned, there had to be the persuasion or facilitation by a third party to impress upon both India and Pakistan to include the genuine leadership of Jammu and Kashmir in all future talks over the issue of Kashmir. The history of past sixty-three years testifies to the fact that the bilateral talks between India and Pakistan have always been fruitless. In fact any attempt to strike a deal between any two parties without the association of the third party, will fail to yield a credible settlement. The agreement between Sheikh Abdullah and Jawaharlal Nehru in 1952, the pact between Sheikh Abdullah and Indira Gandhi in 1975, and an agreement between Farooq Abdullah and Rajiv Gandhi in 1980s sought to bypass Pakistan, leaving the basic issue of Kashmir unsettled. Likewise, the Tashkent Agreement of 1966 between India and Pakistan, the Simla Agreement of 1972, the Lahore Declaration of 1998, the New York Joint Communiqué between President Musharraf and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in 2004 sought to bypass the people of Kashmir and it resulted in a failure. So the time has come that talks need to be tripartite. The reason that talks must be tripartite is that the dispute primarily involves three parties, India, Pakistan and the people of Kashmir. But the primary and principal party is the people of Kashmir, because it is ultimately their future, the future of 15 million people of Kashmir that is at stake, he said.

The Executive director warned that offering the LoC as an international border by Indian Home Minister, P Chidambaram, was an absolute fallacy to begin with. He said that this was also an ideal non-existent solution. One cannot imagine a better formula for sowing a minefield in South Asia that will lead them to a nuclear disaster. Kashmiris revolted against status quo and how can status quo becomes an option. Also, Kashmiris wish to emphasize that their land is not a real estate which can be parcelled out between two disputants but the home of a nation with a history far more compact and coherent than Indias and far longer than Pakistans, he stated. He maintained that no settlement of the Kashmir dispute would be lasting unless it was explicitly based on the principles of self-determination and erased the so-called Line of Control, which was in reality the line of conflict.

The Executive Director reiterated that the concept of autonomy for Kashmiris proposed by some quarters in India was an absolute non-solution. Here you will have to rely on a provision of the Indian Constitution. All Constitutions of the world are subject to amendments and Indian Constitution is no exception. If not now, if not today, in the foreseeable future, the Parliament can delete this provision in the Constitution and the move will not even need a debate in the Indian Parliament, he said. Dr Fai further stated that the Kashmiris had had the experience of a limited autonomy, which was first practiced under a personal understanding between Nehru and Abdullah and later provided for by Section 370 of the Indian Constitution, adding that it was eroded and eventually whittled away by the forces of circumstances.

Dr Ghulam Nabi Fai pointed out that the presence of a million peacefully protesting people on the streets of Kashmir gave a loud and clear message to the world powers including the United States that they would not accept anything short of Azadi freedom. He deplored that India was seeking the candidacy of the UN Security Council while it was continuously flouting its resolutions on Kashmir. We fail to understand how can the world powers, including the Obama Administration, even consider to support a country like India to become a member of the United Nations Security Council when it has been violating the very principles for which UN stands for? This will make mockery of the principles of the United Nations and of international obligations of a member country under the United Nations Charter, he added. » 

Kashmir is not India?s internal matter: Dr Fai | Kashmir Media Service

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## TechLahore

I have changed the title of the thread to reflect the headline of the article. Don't come up with your own spin on the content.

The article does not at all state that the movement is against Pakistan, as your thread headline implied.

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## SpArK

*Security bunkers being removed in Srinagar​*

Srinagar, Oct 5 (ANI): Jammu and Kashmir Government on Tuesday started the process of removing 16 security bunkers from Srinagar.



The decision to remove the bunkers was taken at a meeting of the Unified Headquarters in Srinagar last week *as part of the Centre's eight-point Kashmir peace initiative.*


The bunkers will be removed from Anganwadi centre Wanihama, BD school Batmaloo, Sonawar, Janab Sahib Soura, Hazratbal, PHC Palpora, Magarmal crossing, Agricultural University Shalimar, DAV School Wazirbagh, SDPT Aloochibagh, Miskinbagh, Firdausabad in Batamaloo, Sazgiripora, Sumkachbal, Common Dental College Karanagar, Bone and Joint Hospital in Barzulla.

*It was also decided that the state government would set up two groups of senior police and Army officers in Srinagar and Jammu to identify areas where the government could de-notify the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) *(ANI)

Security bunkers being removed in Srinagar - Oneindia News


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## SpArK

*JK peace gesture: 5 of 16 security bunkers removed​*
Srinagar, Oct 5: As part of the Centre's eight-point Kashmir peace initiative, the Jammu and Kashmir government has removed *five bunkers out of 16 of the security forces from Srinaga city on Tuesday, *Oct 5. The move has come as part of the Centre's peace initiatives to reach out to the people of the Valley. 


Sources said the bunkers will be removed from Anganwadi center Wanihama, BD school Batmaloo, Sonawar, Janab Sahib Soura, Hazratbal, PHC Palpora, Magarmal crossing, Agricultural University Shalimar, DAV School Wazirbagh, SDPT Aloochibagh, Miskinbagh, Firdausabad in Batamaloo, Sazgiripora, Sumkachbal, Common Dental College Karanagar, Bone and Joint Hospital in Barzulla.


The Centre has decided to appoint interlocutors to hold "sustained dialogue" with various shades of opinion, to release about 200 youth detained for stone-pelting and de-scale the presence of security personnel.

Further request were also made to state government to review the deployment of security forces in the Kashmir Valley and maintain peace in the disturbed areas.


Srinagar Relief | Bunkers Removed | Central Govt | Security Forces | Kashmir Eight-Point - Oneindia News


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## Hawkish

"India conducting state terrorism in Kashmir, Pakistan tell U.N."

How many believe this BS? Most view India as peaceful country. For Pakistan, using Mujahadeen is a better strategy than addressing UN to counter india

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## RollingStones

Hawkish said:


> "India conducting state terrorism in Kashmir, Pakistan tell U.N."
> 
> How many believe this BS? Most view India as peaceful country. For Pakistan, using Mujahadeen is a better strategy than addressing UN to counter india



Pakistan is making a fool out of itself by saying such things. Its credibility will go down the toilet if it keeps saying things like this. You dont want to be in the league of Iran, do you? Pakistanis - rein in your government from embarrassing you all. You just cannot convince the developed nations that India sponsors terrorism. An intern in the political area can tell you that. The problem for Pakistan is the developed nations dont want Kashmir to be outside of Indian government's influence. At the end of the day, we are not spending money to root out a terrible menace from the Indian soil but a terrible menace from pakistani soils. The pakistani minister has to understand how we view things.

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## riju78

this story is from 5 days back and today dear musharaff admitted to training militant groups to fight in kashmir....


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## Omar1984

Case against Arundhati Roy

RANCHI: A complaint case was lodged at the Ranchi chief judicial magistrate's (CJM) court against Booker prize winner and social activist Arundhati Roy for saying that "Kashmir was never an integral part of India". 

The case was lodged under Section 124 (A) of IPC against Roy by one Ashish Kumar Singh in the court of CJM Vijay Kumar. The hearing on the complaint case will take place on Tuesday. 

The petitioner alleged that Roy, by issuing a statement in public that in her view "Kashmir was never an integral part of India", has attempted to bring hatred or contempt against the government establishment by law. The petitioner demanded lawful action against Roy. 

Roy was in the state capital on September 25 and 26 to attend a public hearing on Operation Green Hunt. While interacting with reporters, Roy had said in her opinion she did not accept that Kashmir was ever an integral part of India. 

Meanwhile, judicial custody of former chief minister Madhu Koda and his aide Vikash Sinha was extended by the vigilance and Prevention of Money Laundering Act (PMLA) courts on Monday. 

Koda was produced in the vigilance court of special judge Binoy Kant Khan and his judicial custody was extended till October 18, while Sinha was produced in the court of special judge Geetendra Kumar Singh and his judicial custody was extended till October 27. 


Case against Arundhati Roy - The Times of India


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## Omar1984

No freedom of speech granted to its citizens in the world's largest "democracy". 

I wonder what Gandhi Ji would think of his India if he was alive today.


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## Von Hölle

^^^What BS are you talking about.. India is a free country ..any individual can file a court petition against any other..it court's job to verify it and accept or dismiss it based on facts!!

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## Omar1984

Von H&#246;lle;1183783 said:


> ^^^What BS are you talking about.. India is a free country ..any individual can file a court petition against any other..it court's job to verify it and accept or dismiss it based on facts!!



We'll just have to wait and see what your indian courts have to say then.

Relatives of Kashmiris killed by indian police/troops and wounded Kashmiris should also take the indian police/troops to courts for violation of their freedom of speech and freedom to protest.

Isn't it a crime in a democracy if police/troops kill unarmed citizens for speaking up and protesting?

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## Von Hölle

Omar1984 said:


> We'll just have to wait and see what your indian courts have to say then.
> 
> Relatives of Kashmiris killed by indian police/troops and wounded Kashmiris should also take the indian police/troops to courts for violation of their freedom of speech and freedom to protest.
> 
> Isn't it a crime in a democracy if police/troops kill unarmed citizens for speaking up and protesting?



As your initial attempt to flame the thread failed ..hence you want take different approach and start with off topic posts... lame!!

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## Kinetic

Omar1984 said:


> No freedom of speech granted to its citizens in the world's largest "democracy".



*If freedom of speech means always spreading BS against the country she is staying, than no, she should be arrested and persecuted as per the law. She is lucky that it is India otherwise she might have been shot by the army way back. *



> I wonder what Gandhi Ji would think of his India if he was alive today.



You better think what Quaid E Azam would think about Pakistan if he was alive today. We think about our country.

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## TheWarriorIndian

Omar1984 said:


> No freedom of speech granted to its citizens in the world's largest "democracy".
> 
> I wonder what Gandhi Ji would think of his India if he was alive today.



Freedom Of speech is allowed, But It should not result in Escalating the Tension's, This is Not the first Incident, remember Varun Gandhi?? he was Jailed for an Anti Pakistan and Anti Muslim speech, Does that Come under freedom of speech as well???


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## third eye

I am surprised at the contents of post #1 but not unhappy.

While it is necessary for ppl to oppose the Govt on all issues but making thoughtless remarks without knowledge of the entire picture amounts to attempts at sensationalism.

Europe & US are touchy on the holocaust, Pak is edgy on J&K in India ppl can get away with almost anything . This has to stop.


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## bandit

Omar1984 said:


> No freedom of speech granted to its citizens in the world's largest "democracy".
> 
> I wonder what Gandhi Ji would think of his India if he was alive today.



Lame argument. Try too understand what is written in plain english rather than putting in your illiterate arguments.

the case is of a *free *citizen agianst another *free *citizen stating her opinion *freely*. How come you understand it as a case against freedom of speech is beyond comprehension. 

If she had been denied her freedom of speech ALA Pakistan or China she would have been lined up and shot or shoved into a prison. She can still defend herself with lawyers and move about freely speaking her mind, thats freedom of speech. One of the reasons she still speaks anti-government stuff is because she knows nothing like that can happen in India.

Looking close to home would be a good start to understanding how subversion of freedom of speech occurs-



> Pakistani Journalist Speaks Out After an AttackBy JANE PERLEZ
> Published: September 24, 2010
> ISLAMABAD, Pakistan &#8212; An investigative reporter for a major Pakistani newspaper was on his way home from dinner here on a recent night when men in black commando garb stopped his car, blindfolded him and drove him to a house on the outskirts of town.
> 
> Umar Cheema, 34, a reporter for The News, was kidnapped and beaten on the outskirts of Islamabad on Sept. 4 after having written several articles that were critical of the Pakistani Army.
> 
> There, he says, he was* beaten and stripped naked. His head and eyebrows were shaved, and he was videotaped in humiliating positions by assailants who he and other journalists believe were affiliated with the country&#8217;s powerful spy agency*.
> Times Topic: Pakistan
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/25/world/asia/25cheema.html


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## StingRoy

Omar1984 said:


> No freedom of speech granted to its citizens in the world's largest "democracy".
> 
> I wonder what Gandhi Ji would think of his India if he was alive today.



As many other Indian members pointed out... a free democracy gives equal right for people to speak whatever they want and it gives equal rights for any other citizen to challenge their freedom of speech if it conflicts his/her interest. It would have been a violation of her freedom of speech had it been the govt file a case or get her arrested upon her expression of opinion in regards to Kashmir, but it wasn't so.

There was another case filed in the recent judicial history where someone filed a case against Tamil actress Khusboo blaming her of outraging public decency when she supported pre-marital $ex rights for women. The case was dismissed by the Supreme Court of India. I am sure a similar decision will be made in this case as well.


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## nForce

Freedom of expression doesnt mean you can go around hurting the sentiments of millions of people and* it does not allow you to conduct activities,which are anti constitutional.*

The government of India maintains that the state of Jammu and Kashmir is an integral part of India.Thousands have laid down their lives to keep it that way.Now all of a sudden if Arundhati Roy goes on around the streets that Kashmir is not integral part of India,then she not only abuses the freedom of expression,but also hurts the sentiments of thousands of families affected by the Kashmir issue in particular and all the Indians in general.

Talking about Arundhati Roy,this lady has developed this habit of going against the interest of the people of India for almost any and every issue.I just cannot possibly out what exactly she wants to do with all this.It is not like she pursues any issue to see to its end.She makes some kind news-making comment whenever any particular issue is hot and then stops pursuing it after a while and jumps to some other issue,while the older one remains as it is.
This observation leads to only one conclusion.She wants to stay in the focus,in the limelight.


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## TheInvisible

As long as democracy flourishes in Kashmir with Kashmiris electing their own leaders to rule them Kashmir will always be with India.

No other country will support Pakistan's position as nobody is willing to see the birth of another Afghanistan.


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Peshwa said:


> Again a hypocrite Pakistani crutches on fake morality.....we meet again
> 
> Oh and LET is a humanitarian organization is it?
> 
> Just as you claim the Kashmiri are fighting for their right to "self-determination"....so are the BLA...both by resorting to vandalism and arson against the state.....why call one a terror org and the other a freedom movement? Because it suits you....how typical!
> 
> ........
> 
> As opposed to Pakistani strategy of assasinating Baloch leaders to quell the revolt and using brute force to suppress the Baloch and their rights?....sound familiar?
> 
> Freedom is as important to the Baloch as it is to the Kashmiris.....what makes the Kashmiris so special to get their own state?
> hahhahaha again joke how many balochs in punjab and sindh ... their population is more here and only factor responsibe for backwardness of baloches there is tussel between govt and feuds ....
> What have the Kashmiris done to deserve freedom and not the Baloch?
> 
> My only point here is.....
> If any settlement is to be made on Kashmir in an amicable manner, Pakistanis need to get out of this mindset that terrorism is the answer to Kashmir....
> The sooner you understand that the existance of people like Hafiz Saeed, Lakhvi etc can only hurt our chances of peace...the closer we can get to Confidence building and eventually maybe a solution.
> Both sides have equally bad cases of insurgencies....you cannot expect us to sympathize with your problems if you dont expect to rationalize with ours and remove the terror infrastructure of the LETs, JEMs, Jamaat Ud Daawas....instead of terming this suicide by your people as a "freedom movement"


hahahaha ... funny joke.....
what about such issues in india .... if we start counting these there would be hundreds in india.......
what about moist....... why u don,t like them.......
read history .... they(baloch leaders) are fueds and when government tried to end feudal culture they raised racial salogens and india paying them.........
ohh.......... what about kashmiri leaders , muslims in asaam and killing of moist leaders.... and many more don,t teach us morality ... king of immoraly


keep your biased points with u.....

ok free asaam , hyderabad , moist area ang kashmir we will free baloch area....... do u agree.......


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

TheInvisible said:


> As long as democracy flourishes in Kashmir with Kashmiris electing their own leaders to rule them Kashmir will always be with India.
> 
> No other country will support Pakistan's position as nobody is willing to see the birth of another Afghanistan.



hahhahaha .... puppit democracy.........
its good for indians not kashmiries...


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

we have not forget the words of indra gandhi after debacle of bangladesh that her next aim is balochistan.....
at that time no insergency had been started in kashmir........
but indian govt paid baloch insurgents that gave rise to 1973 operation....
why your ........ started itching in 1989 revolt....
and you need to count no of army on kashmir .... 7 lak plus and in balochistan no more than 20 thousand........


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

we know international community and media is being dominated by non-muslim forces. they are fully biased thats why all the issues relating to muslims are hanging fire ..
but even a single chance to damage muslim countries is cashed ...
it is unfortunate that muslims are lacking sincere and competent leadership that is making them suffer.. 
same is for our baloch brothers.... while baloch feuds are sitting in europe and india they are inciting baloch people on racial grounds ... 
but their evil plans along with their evil masters are not going to be reality .... 
relating kashmir with balochistan is irrational ... balochistan issue should be compared with moists and other insurgents in india........


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

it has been policy of india to damage credibility of pakistan....
a resolution in 1948 was passed in congress that pakistan is not a viable state and it would not be allowed to exist as viable state......
so it is indian legacy..... 
pakistanies need not to be frustrated by indian propagandas on any ground rather they should face it on solid grounds......


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## arihant

Is not title misleading ? May be because its pakistani forum, title can be biased.


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## Awesome

What did Musharraf say about mlitant groups in Kashmir | Pakistan Patriot



> The Bharati press and the BBC has misquoted the Der Spiegel interview with Pervez Musharraf.
> 
> When asked about mlitant groups in Kashmir, Mr. Musharraf responded they were formed. Mr. Musharraf did not say that the government formed them. He said that the government turned a blind eye on them. The exact quote is as follows:
> 
> They were indeed formed. The government turned a blind eye because they wanted India to discuss Kashmir.
> 
> He also said The West blames Pakistan for everything. Nobody asks the Indian prime minister, why did you arm your country with a nuclear weapon? Why are you killing innocent civilians in Kashmir? Nobody was bothered that Pakistan got split in 1971 because of Indias military involvement. The United States and Germany gave statements, but they didnt mean anything,

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## roach

He said nothing new, nothing revelatory.

He just said what needed to be said to make the world take notice of his new political party.

I like Musharraf, I think we can work with this man. A known devil is better than an unknown angel. Good luck to him in his journey back to Pakistan politics.


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## saurabh

SPIEGEL Interview with Pervez Musharraf: 'Pakistan is Always Seen as the Rogue' - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International



> SPIEGEL: Why did you form militant underground groups to fight India in Kashmir?
> 
> Musharraf: They were indeed formed. The government turned a blind eye because they wanted India to discuss Kashmir.
> 
> SPIEGEL: It was the Pakistani security forces that trained them.
> 
> Musharraf: The West was ignoring the resolution of the Kashmir issue, which is the core issue of Pakistan. We expected the West -- especially the United States and important countries like Germany -- to resolve the Kashmir issue. Has Germany done that?
> 
> SPIEGEL: Does that give Pakistan the right to train underground fighters?
> 
> Musharraf: Yes, it is the right of any country to promote its own interests when India is not prepared to discuss Kashmir at the United Nations and is not prepared to resolve the dispute in a peaceful manner.



He did not answered first two questions. If he was not guilty as charged, he should have said so, otherwise, it would be obviously taken that he (Pakistan) is guilty. When it was asked "why did you do so", right answer would have been, "we didn't do so". But he didn't deny the charges.

Third question, he accepts Pakistan has right to train underground fighters, and doesn't deny that they didn't. What do you make out of it?


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## third eye

Asim Aquil said:


> What did Musharraf say about mlitant groups in Kashmir | Pakistan Patriot



Either way is an admission of the complicity of GOP and its intention to allow / use terrorism as an instrument of state policy - something it denied all along and more so back in 99.

Here is a link to Der Spigel and the actual interview.

SPIEGEL Interview with Pervez Musharraf: 'Pakistan is Always Seen as the Rogue' - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International


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## RobbieS

Asim, what is your argument here? That Pakistan/Mushy never formed those groups? From what I have seen in your posts, you count that as perfectly rational and legal activity. Why the attempt to disassociate Pakistan from the creation of these groups now?


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## Awesome

third eye said:


> Either way is an admission of the complicity of GOP and its intention to allow / use terrorism as an instrument of state policy - something it denied all along and more so back in 99.
> 
> Here is a link to Der Spigel and the actual interview.
> 
> SPIEGEL Interview with Pervez Musharraf: 'Pakistan is Always Seen as the Rogue' - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International


Hmmm 90s era strategy of Pakistan was wrong, it allowed these groups thinking they would only harm India. The era is significant as well, since when Musharraf came in February 2001, he put an end to Pakistan's complicity with these groups at an overt level.

Since Kargil it was evident that trained PA regulars are actively involved rather than militants.

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## Awesome

RobbieS said:


> Asim, what is your argument here? That Pakistan/Mushy never formed those groups? From what I have seen in your posts, you count that as perfectly rational and legal activity. Why the attempt to disassociate Pakistan from the creation of these groups now?


Musharraf never formed these groups, they were allowed to be formed by many people ready to do so in Pakistan. The idea is simple and an honest one, India can opt to give the Kashmiris the democratic right to vote in a plebiscite, or else the gun would have to be picked up to kill Indian soldiers.

Pakistan's efforts in this regard should be commended. What could be more beautiful than fighting for democracy and freedom? Of course the use of militant groups has performance issues and perhaps they don't kill enough Indian soldiers or they miss the target and have incurred collateral losses. 

As Musharraf said it is our right to do so. Only thing is to pick the best method of doing it.

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## KS

Long due - hope the Court gifts her a paid vacation to Tihar.


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## PAKFA

These are the side effect of democracy . person like her and barkha dutt for getting publicity they can go for any extent against country interest . Hope to see some action on these Traitors.


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## praveen

Asim Aquil said:


> Musharraf never formed these groups, they were allowed to be formed by many people ready to do so in Pakistan. The idea is simple and an honest one, India can opt to give the Kashmiris the democratic right to vote in a plebiscite, or else the gun would have to be picked up to kill Indian soldiers.
> 
> Pakistan's efforts in this regard should be commended. What could be more beautiful than fighting for democracy and freedom? Of course the use of militant groups has performance issues and perhaps they don't kill enough Indian soldiers or they miss the target and have incurred collateral losses.
> 
> As Musharraf said it is our right to do so. Only thing is to pick the best method of doing it.



so you recommend 26\11 like scenarios to fight for democracy and freedom.Kashmiris have ceased to become insurgents since the break up of JKLF.

Well as long as young send terrorists aka freedom fighters the job of the indian army to fix appointment with God


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## RobbieS

Asim Aquil said:


> Musharraf never formed these groups, they were allowed to be formed by many people ready to do so in Pakistan. The idea is simple and an honest one, India can opt to give the Kashmiris the democratic right to vote in a plebiscite, or else the gun would have to be picked up to kill Indian soldiers.
> 
> *Pakistan's efforts in this regard should be commended. What could be more beautiful than fighting for democracy and freedom? Of course the use of militant groups has performance issues and perhaps they don't kill enough Indian soldiers or they miss the target and have incurred collateral losses. *
> 
> As Musharraf said it is our right to do so. Only thing is to pick the best method of doing it.



Asim, you have probably seen this argument before, but the problem with that approach is that those groups are never in full control of their backers. The pretense of an indigenous armed struggle necessitates a sort of loose control over these groups. And as we have seen these groups have indulged in wanton acts of terror beyond Kashmir as well. And when that happens, you cant blame India for choosing a suitable method retribution. Balochistan may be only one of those methods.

And I think one has to evaluate the end benefit for Pakistan. Where has this policy of a proxy war led Pakistan? The very same intentions that led Pakistan to train and fund Kashmiri militants also led Pakistan to turn a blind eye or even harbor Taliban factions. What has Pakistan got out of it? Has India's hold on Kashmir weakened? Has India shown any flexibility in its approach? And is Pakistan seen as true supporter of oppressed people or as a terrorist haven?

And even the cause of a plebiscite is a flawed and a sham one. Pakistan wants Kashmir for itself.


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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> Musharraf never formed these groups, they were allowed to be formed by many people ready to do so in Pakistan. The idea is simple and an honest one, *India can opt to give the Kashmiris the democratic right to vote in a plebiscite, or else the gun would have to be picked up to kill Indian soldiers.*
> 
> 
> As* Musharraf said it is our right to do so.* Only thing is to pick the best method of doing it.



No I dont get this simple and honest idea.

Who exactly authorised Pakistan to pick up the gun or rather facilitate in picking up the gun if India didn do as per "Pakistan's wishes".?

Pakistan is as complicit as India in this issue ans going by your simple and honest idea isnt India correct in starting cross border terrorism in your Kashmir.?


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## devgupt

Asim Aquil said:


> Musharraf never formed these groups, they were allowed to be formed by many people ready to do so in Pakistan.
> Pakistan's efforts in this regard should be commended.
> 
> As Musharraf said it is our right to do so. Only thing is to pick the best method of doing it.



Heard of Frankestein?


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## su-47

Asim Aquil said:


> Musharraf never formed these groups, they were allowed to be formed by many people ready to do so in Pakistan. The idea is simple and an honest one, India can opt to give the Kashmiris the democratic right to vote in a plebiscite, or else the gun would have to be picked up to kill Indian soldiers.



When a state deliberately allows, and even encourages, non-state actors to use the state as a launch platform to attack another country, then it is equivalent to state-sponsored terrorism. So the argument that Musharraf didn't actually form the groups doesn't have any significance. Its still state-sponsored terrorism against another sovereign nation.



Asim Aquil said:


> Pakistan's efforts in this regard should be commended. What could be more beautiful than fighting for democracy and freedom?



Yes, and by that same logic, India should support BLA, and Pakistan should stop complaining about our support for Mukthi Bahini. 



Asim Aquil said:


> Of course the use of militant groups has performance issues and perhaps they don't kill enough Indian soldiers or they miss the target and have incurred collateral losses.



Oh yes, their performance issue is the problem. Doesnt matter if they are Paksitani citizens who are being sent to die, instead of being taught to live. Doesn't matter if the Jihadis butcher a whole load of Kashmiris in the process. Just as long as their performance of killing Indians is acceptable isn't it?

BTW doesn't this count as supporting terrorism? And i thought this forum didnt allow for supporting terrorism? 



Asim Aquil said:


> As Musharraf said it is our right to do so. Only thing is to pick the best method of doing it.



Your 'best method' has crippled your economy and almost made you a pariah state. Maybe it is time for a strategic review on policies.

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

For the indians who are questioning...

Friends (enemies whatever you like)... The problem that you have here on this forum is that you are talking to a certain section of Pakistani society which for a lot of issues does not represent the common man on the street in Pakistan... The Jihadi organizations that sprang up against India has been something that is inevitable in a society that has nothing much to offer their citizens... Poor people with no decent jobs with the media bombarding them with Indian atrocities in Kashmir on a daily basis... of course you will have people wanting to fight against India... The Pakistani elite decided to use that to keep these people busy... They used these groups and helped them initially... This helps the Army as well because then the Army does not have to do what it is supposed to do i.e fight wars/liberate occupied land etc and instead they can just live a peaceful life... and rule the country in the form of American backed puppets like Musharaf...

The questions you are asking on this forum can never be answered by these people... The Jihadi organizations served an important purpose which was to channel the anger that ordinary man on the street faces against these corrupt leaders be it both civilian or military and use that anger against our arch rival India... Musharaf perhaps now realizes that we need to keep these groups as he has nothing better to offer them than a quick path to paradise...

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

We followed that Path but in the Past .. .. !!!


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## SpArK

*Kashmir plan of RSS deserves a debate*

This refers to the debatable Kashmir Plan of RSS ideologue Shri Vaidya (GK October 4, 2010).

Shri Vaidya lays down a new solution for the Kashmir problem in general and for the present unrest in particular. 

He recommends that *Kashmir be detached from Ladakh and Jammu and granted pre 1953 level autonomy with power on all subjects other than defence, foreign affairs and communications.* 

*As for Jammu he suggests Statehood and for Ladakh, a Union territory status so as to satisfy the aspirations of the people living in these regions.* 

*He also suggests that the Article 370 of the Indian Constitution be strengthened so the proposed Kashmir State could have its own KAS officers instead of the IAS officers and the new State could have its own laws instead of the laws enforced upon it by the Indian Parliament. Disagreeing with the post of the Sadre-i-Riyasat , he suggests that that the State should have its own Wazir-i-Azam.
*

There are many issues which Shri Vaidya has not discussed in his Kashmir Plan. He has nothing to say about the people of Gilgit and Baltistan who are groaning under direct Pak domination. 

Similarly, he has made no mention of areas of the State ( Aksaichin and others) which are under occupation of China. However, the ideas put forth by the learned ideologue are worth consideration and fair debate. It is not a solid argument to say that we will not hear anything from a person of RSS which is a recognized political party in India and among whose members we have our Kashmiri Pandits. Shri Vaidyas Kashmir Plan has, so far, evoked a very strong reaction from some pro-India as well as anti-India politicians. 


Most of them dislike disintegration of the State despite the fact that it stands already disintegrated into 4 parts - Azad Kashmir, Frontier illaqas of Gilgit and Baltistan under Pak control, Chinese occupied Kashmir, and India held Kashmir, the present day, Ladakh, Jammu and Kashmir. 

It must be recognized that no boundary is sacrosanct and as such subject to change. Once upon a time there was one country known as Hindoostan, which was bifurcated into three countries by the British. More recently, we had truncated Indian Punjab, out of which they cleaved out the States of Himachal and Haryana. 

As such, all members of our society must express their views on the above mentioned Kashmir Plan. For how long we have to remain tagged with the dreams of our politicians?

Fida Hassnain
Historian 

Kashmir plan of RSS deserves a debate Lastupdate:- Wed, 6 Oct 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com


_PS: This is an article published in a site by somebody viewing a proposal by another somebody. Terming and mis intepreting the article as "India's dubious plan" or RAW plan reflects the lack of knowledge of the user in understanding English as a mode of communication._

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## anurag_singh

BENNY said:


> *Kashmir plan of RSS deserves a debate*
> 
> This refers to the debatable Kashmir Plan of RSS ideologue Shri Vaidya (GK October 4, 2010).
> 
> Shri Vaidya lays down a new solution for the Kashmir problem in general and for the present unrest in particular.
> 
> He recommends that *Kashmir be detached from Ladakh and Jammu and granted pre 1953 level autonomy with power on all subjects other than defence, foreign affairs and communications.*
> 
> *As for Jammu he suggests Statehood and for Ladakh, a Union territory status so as to satisfy the aspirations of the people living in these regions.*
> 
> *He also suggests that the Article 370 of the Indian Constitution be strengthened so the proposed Kashmir State could have its own KAS officers instead of the IAS officers and the new State could have its own laws instead of the laws enforced upon it by the Indian Parliament. Disagreeing with the post of the Sadre-i-Riyasat , he suggests that that the State should have its own Wazir-i-Azam.
> *
> 
> There are many issues which Shri Vaidya has not discussed in his Kashmir Plan. He has nothing to say about the people of Gilgit and Baltistan who are groaning under direct Pak domination.
> 
> Similarly, he has made no mention of areas of the State ( Aksaichin and others) which are under occupation of China. However, the ideas put forth by the learned ideologue are worth consideration and fair debate. It is not a solid argument to say that we will not hear anything from a person of RSS which is a recognized political party in India and among whose members we have our Kashmiri Pandits. Shri Vaidyas Kashmir Plan has, so far, evoked a very strong reaction from some pro-India as well as anti-India politicians.
> 
> 
> Most of them dislike disintegration of the State despite the fact that it stands already disintegrated into 4 parts - Azad Kashmir, Frontier illaqas of Gilgit and Baltistan under Pak control, Chinese occupied Kashmir, and India held Kashmir, the present day, Ladakh, Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> It must be recognized that no boundary is sacrosanct and as such subject to change. Once upon a time there was one country known as Hindoostan, which was bifurcated into three countries by the British. More recently, we had truncated Indian Punjab, out of which they cleaved out the States of Himachal and Haryana.
> 
> As such, all members of our society must express their views on the above mentioned Kashmir Plan. For how long we have to remain tagged with the dreams of our politicians?
> 
> Fida Hassnain
> Historian
> 
> Kashmir plan of RSS deserves a debate Lastupdate:- Wed, 6 Oct 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com
> 
> 
> _PS: This is an article published in a site by somebody viewing a proposal by another somebody. Terming and mis intepreting the article as "India's dubious plan" or RAW plan reflects the lack of knowledge of the user in understanding English as a mode of communication._



I agree with this plan. Jammu and Laddakh are also not getting fair deal due to valley so full integration of these parts(Abolishment of Article 370) in India is must for development of these two parts. We can give valley its pre 1953 power so that they feel safe and free.


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## Fasih Khan

Asim Aquil said:


> Musharraf never formed these groups, they were allowed to be formed by many people ready to do so in Pakistan. The idea is simple and an honest one, India can opt to give the Kashmiris the democratic right to vote in a plebiscite, or else the gun would have to be picked up to kill Indian soldiers.
> 
> Pakistan's efforts in this regard should be commended. What could be more beautiful than fighting for democracy and freedom? Of course the use of militant groups has performance issues and perhaps they don't kill enough Indian soldiers or they miss the target and have incurred collateral losses.
> 
> As Musharraf said it is our right to do so. Only thing is to pick the best method of doing it.



*India can opt to give the Kashmiris the democratic right to vote in a plebiscite, or else the gun would have to be picked up to kill Indian soldiers.*

*Absolutely Correct.*


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## Spring Onion

Ohhh dividing a foreign country by Hindu militants which is occupied by India.


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## SpArK

Jana said:


> Ohhh dividing a foreign country by Hindu militants which is occupied by India.




*Yes indeed.. would be fun , right?*

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## third eye

Fasih Khan said:


> *India can opt to give the Kashmiris the democratic right to vote in a plebiscite, or else the gun would have to be picked up to kill Indian soldiers.*
> 
> *Absolutely Correct.*



Its been over 60 yrs and the Plebiscite has not happened. What does that indicate ?


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## noksss

Jana said:


> Ohhh dividing a foreign country by Hindu militants which is occupied by India.



I guesss *** is not ruled by hindu millitants its under the control of islamic militants occupied by pakistan

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## Grand slam

Fasih Khan said:


> *India can opt to give the Kashmiris the democratic right to vote in a plebiscite, or else the gun would have to be picked up to kill Indian soldiers.*
> 
> *Absolutely Correct.*



Nothing worng with that. But all this mentality has done so far is to kill thousands of innocents, not only in India, but off late in Pakistan too.

When you hand out guns to people, you should make sure that you are giving it to sane people, not to relegious fanatics, illetrate bigots and fundamentalists.


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## riju78

Oh pleaaaase jana ji come back down to earth and talk like a mature lady. U r not addressing half educated brain washed people here. RSS's solution does seem workable and we need to be looking at things logically. U calling Kashmir a separate country a 1000 times won't change anything


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## Grand slam

Jana said:


> Ohhh dividing a foreign country by Hindu militants which is occupied by India.



Keep on harping the same note, what else can you do??


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## mattoo

Fasih Khan said:


> *India can opt to give the Kashmiris the democratic right to vote in a plebiscite, or else the gun would have to be picked up to kill Indian soldiers.*
> 
> *Absolutely Correct.*



And once whatever it is that is their objective is achieved, these "freedom fighters" (aka terrorists in the rest of the civilized world) will put down their guns and pick up plowshares, right?

Exactly which part of the world has such a thing happened?


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## Moorkh

Fasih Khan said:


> *India can opt to give the Kashmiris the democratic right to vote in a plebiscite, or else the gun would have to be picked up to kill Indian soldiers.*
> 
> *Absolutely Correct.*


as a corollary we can say 

"Pakistan can opt to leave the indians (including kashmiris) alone or gun will have to be picked up to kill pakistani soldiers"

makes the same amount of sense either way. that is none.

it simply calls for leaving a method that is not working in favour of one which will give negative results.


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## KS

Two more "freedom fighters" martyred by the Indian Army including a self-styled divisional commander.

Looks like the October account has started. 

Hizbul Mujahideen militants killed in encounter IBNLive


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## karan.1970

Karthic Sri said:


> Two more "freedom fighters" martyred by the Indian Army including a self-styled divisional commander.
> Looks like the October account has started.
> 
> Hizbul Mujahideen militants killed in encounter - India News - IBNLive



 
I think the cooperation with Israel on counter Insurgency weapons and training is paying off.


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## KS

karan.1970 said:


> I think the cooperation with Israel on counter Insurgency weapons and training is paying off.



Definitely.....Also we must not forget the HUMINT network that Sec forces have managed to develop in these areas.

Gone are the days when these militants used to cross the border with gay abandon and wreak havoc in the public places like Sri Nagar.

Now only a handful manage to get past the tight cordon on the LoC and even those who manage that are done away with before they can inflict a significant damage.

Also the most noteworthy thing is the casualty on our side.It has almost become negligible or overwhelmingly in our favour.


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## Awesome

praveen said:


> so you recommend 26\11 like scenarios to fight for democracy and freedom.Kashmiris have ceased to become insurgents since the break up of JKLF.
> 
> Well as long as young send terrorists aka freedom fighters the job of the indian army to fix appointment with God


Again, you seem to not be following anything I or Musharraf have said. It is okay to kill Indian soldiers, that too serving in Kashmir, and even still only for the purpose of liberating Kashmir. Mumbai like scenarios were terrorism, plain and simple and is poles apart from what Musharraf said.

Musharraf is pointing at very specific, legitimate and honorable reasons, not blind hatred, religious extremism or anything as such.


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## Capt.Popeye

RamGorur said:


> 42 Freedom Fighters have been freed from their earthly prison.



The 42 "Freedom Fighters" have been given everlasting "freedom" from their earthly burdens and are now discovering everlasting "bliss" with some "great company".

Should we grudge them that?
let's just say good-bye


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## Grand slam

Asim Aquil said:


> Again, you seem to not be following anything I or Musharraf have said. It is okay to kill Indian soldiers, that too serving in Kashmir, and even still only for the purpose of liberating Kashmir. Mumbai like scenarios were terrorism, plain and simple and is poles apart from what Musharraf said.
> 
> Musharraf is pointing at very specific, legitimate and honorable reasons, not blind hatred, religious extremism or anything as such.



Lashkar -e-tayyaba is a known terror outfit and so is Jaish e mohammad. What link do they have with Kashmir?? Heck, their name itself tells whether they promote kashmiri cause or just plain relegious extremism catalysed acts of terrorism.


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## Capt.Popeye

Originally Posted by Asim Aquil 
Pakistan's efforts in this regard should be commended. What could be more beautiful than fighting for democracy and freedom?

So should we wish the TTP and BLA , good luck in their endeavours?
Your statement is specious, and that is putting it mildly. Let all the "freedom fighters' find "beautiful everlasting freedom" in some other "astral plane" with 72 houris or 72 polar bears; for all that i care.


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## ek_indian

Unnecessary discussion.

Point being, 42 people from hostile ogananizations have been tackled. Good job by IA.

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## third eye

Asim Aquil said:


> Again, you seem to not be following anything I or Musharraf have said. It is okay to kill Indian soldiers, that too serving in Kashmir, and even still only for the purpose of liberating Kashmir. Mumbai like scenarios were terrorism, plain and simple and is poles apart from what Musharraf said.
> 
> Musharraf is pointing at very specific, legitimate and honorable reasons, not blind hatred, religious extremism or anything as such.



Forever astride two boats !

After having lost half a nation Pak still has not learnt to live within its own means.


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## arya

Multani said:


> attrition ratio against its own people? what a blood thirsty army


cooldown my dear friend n tell me what is ur problem? is ind army as not good as your?


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## Fasih Khan

*May Allah Kareem Bless the Shuhdaa e Kashmir. Ameen. May India reaches it's End in the Vally of Kashmir. Ameen YaRabul Alameen.*


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## jahangeer yousaf

well well well ....... if those were the millitants then it should have been another episode of pounch sector do i need to remind indians what did happen in pounch or they will re-call it by themselves.....

india can kill only innocent ............... india does not has the capability to fight with any arm person ....


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## IBRIS

jahangeer yousaf said:


> well well well ....... if those were the millitants then it should have been another episode of pounch sector do i need to remind indians what did happen in pounch or they will re-call it by themselves.....
> 
> india can kill only innocent ............... india does not has the capability to fight with any arm person ....



i guess we been playing cards with armless persons strayed into our territory for the past 63 years. Next time please send some arms.


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## karan.1970

Fasih Khan said:


> *May Allah Kareem Bless the Shuhdaa e Kashmir. Ameen. May India reaches it's End in the Vally of Kashmir. Ameen YaRabul Alameen.*



Khuda kabhi bhi Napak dua kabool nahi karte..

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## Awesome

Capt.Popeye said:


> Originally Posted by Asim Aquil
> Pakistan's efforts in this regard should be commended. What could be more beautiful than fighting for democracy and freedom?
> 
> So should we wish the TTP and BLA , good luck in their endeavours?
> Your statement is specious, and that is putting it mildly. Let all the "freedom fighters' find "beautiful everlasting freedom" in some other "astral plane" with 72 houris or 72 polar bears; for all that i care.


TTP is not fighting against an illegal occupation force. India is doing something illegal, Pakistan is the legal authority over its regions.

Kashmir being a disputed territory, it becomes our right to fight Indian soldiers there. There is no question of targeting anyone but the soldiers since we are fighting to save ALL civilians from India's tyranny.

Best thing is, India has the option to end the fight by accepting a peaceful, democratic way - plebiscite.

Either one thing has to happen, peace or fight. India's choice.


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## VCheng

_"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". _


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## praveen

Asim Aquil said:


> Again, you seem to not be following anything I or Musharraf have said. It is okay to kill Indian soldiers, that too serving in Kashmir, and even still only for the purpose of liberating Kashmir. Mumbai like scenarios were terrorism, plain and simple and is poles apart from what Musharraf said.
> 
> Musharraf is pointing at very specific, legitimate and honorable reasons, not blind hatred, religious extremism or anything as such.



We Indians are not Terrrist Connosieurs unlike you Asim so all terrorism is the same to us can't distinguish them both.Right knowthe indian army will an appoint with god for the terrorists and in the future it will also fix an appointment for the establishment and actors who are responsible for unleashing this scourge 

What not is more honorable for a nations army than nuetering everything and anything that stands in the nations way.The Army is doing a legitimate and honorable job no blind hatred or anything as such


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## third eye

Asim Aquil said:


> Either one thing has to happen, peace or fight. India's choice.



India has made its stand amply clear over the last 60 yrs. There is no ambiguity at all.


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## Awesome

praveen said:


> We Indians are not Terrrist Connosieurs unlike you Asim so all terrorism is the same to us can't distinguish them both.Right knowthe indian army will an appoint with god for the terrorists and in the future it will also fix an appointment for the establishment and actors who are responsible for unleashing this scourge
> 
> What not is more honorable for a nations army than nuetering everything and anything that stands in the nations way.The Army is doing a legitimate and honorable job no blind hatred or anything as such


Perhaps you Indians can at least comprehend logic and the English language at least. Terrorism has to be inflicted against civilians and not soldiers for it to actually qualify as terrorism. There's no point to one being a soldier if they keep crying foul and claim terrorism. Them being terrified is good for their enemy - the enemy is not going to win by singing lullabies. 

You're on disputed territory. You won't allow a peaceful solution. Your choices, fight or flight. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

---------- Post added at 06:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 PM ----------




third eye said:


> India has made its stand amply clear over the last 60 yrs. There is no ambiguity at all.


India's stand is status quo. Pakistan's stand is to break that status quo. There's no ambiguity on that either.

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## VCheng

For all the rhetoric about principled stands on both sides, Kashmir will unfortunately continue to be a bargaining chip in the international geopolitical arena.

India will settle for the LoC as border if it gets the permanent SC seat it so covets.

Pakistan will settle for whatever it can get when the crunch comes, just like 1971.

The people of Kashmir will continue to suffer even after that.

That is the sad but true reality.

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## third eye

Asim Aquil said:


> [/COLOR]
> India's stand is status quo. Pakistan's stand is to break that status quo. There's no ambiguity on that either.




Well , 60 yrs and its the same.


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## TATA

*Musharraf admits Pakistan trained militants*

*Arab News, Saudi Arabia*

Musharraf admits Pakistan trained militants - Arab News


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## SpArK

TATA said:


> *Musharraf admits Pakistan trained militants*
> 
> *Arab News, Saudi Arabia*
> 
> Musharraf admits Pakistan trained militants - Arab News



Dude the same has been reported even in Pakistan media too

Pak trained Kashmiri groups: Musharraf | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

Also US

Musharraf: Pakistan backed militants in attacks on India - Washington Times

The Pioneer :: Home : >> Pak fanned terror in Kashmir says Mush

Musharraf admits training militants - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

ONLINE - International News Network

Pakistan trained militants to fight India: Musharraf

Fighters formed to be used in Held Kashmir: Musharraf - GEO.tv


*Every Media has used the same wordings...

So we dont need to debate much further on what he meant.*

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## TATA

BENNY said:


> Dude the same has been reported even in Pakistan media too
> 
> Pak trained Kashmiri groups: Musharraf | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online
> 
> Also US
> 
> Musharraf: Pakistan backed militants in attacks on India - Washington Times
> 
> The Pioneer :: Home : >> Pak fanned terror in Kashmir says Mush
> 
> Musharraf admits training militants - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
> 
> ONLINE - International News Network
> 
> Pakistan trained militants to fight India: Musharraf
> 
> Fighters formed to be used in Held Kashmir: Musharraf - GEO.tv
> 
> 
> *Every Media has used the same wordings...
> 
> So we dont need to debate much further on what he meant.*



*Go and tell this to Admin "Asim Aquil" who have started this thread specially and quoted "The Bharati press and the BBC has misquoted the Der Spiegel interview with Pervez Musharraf."*


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## Jade

Asim Aquil said:


> TTP is not fighting against an illegal occupation force. India is doing something illegal, Pakistan is the legal authority over its regions.
> 
> Kashmir being a disputed territory, it becomes our right to fight Indian soldiers there. There is no question of targeting anyone but the soldiers since we are fighting to save ALL civilians from India's tyranny.
> 
> Best thing is, India has the option to end the fight by accepting a peaceful, democratic way - plebiscite.
> 
> Either one thing has to happen, peace or fight. India's choice.



Most Pakistanis forgot that P-O-K and GB are also the part of so called disputed areas. If Pakistan wants to have high ground, why cannot it just vacate P-O-K and GB and handover those areas to India for further action.If India is doing something illegal so is Pakistan. So please dont try to be on moral grounds and preach or threaten us. We have seen enough of them in last 60 years.

As regarding the choice, if Pakistan does not want peace...fine...neither are we craving for it


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## SpArK

*US officials meet J&K separatist leaders​*
NEW DELHI:* In a signal that Kashmir is very much on US President Barack Obama's mind as he prepares for his India visit, a two-member team from the US embassy in New Delhi met separatist leaders Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Yasin Malik in Srinagar this week. 
*

*The American officials, first secretary Pushpinder Dhillon and political officer Kailash Jha, met Malik on Sunday and the Mirwaiz on Monday and got the same message from both. The separatists asked for US help to push India and Pakistan back to the dialogue table to resolve the Kashmir dispute. *

The meetings are significant because of the timing. Obama is due next month and there have been reports from Washington that he is preparing to raise Kashmir in his talks with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. 

The Obama administration denied the reports subsequently but the denial seems thin now after this week's Srinagar visit of the US embassy team. An official source in Delhi tried to play down the trip. He said that *diplomats from the US, UK and the European Union go to Kashmir regularly and meet the separatists. However, inquiries in Srinagar revealed that it has been a long time since an American diplomat went to the Valley to talk to Hurriyat leaders. While Jha is a political officer and part of the local staff of the embassy, Dhillon is an Indian-American from Washington and holds diplomatic status.* 

*Analysts in Srinagar said that the team was obviously on a mission to get a firsthand feel of the ground situation and the mood in the Valley after a four-month long street agitation that has left over 100 dead. Their report will be an important input for the brief that Obama's aides are preparing for his India visit. *

''He may not discuss Kashmir as Kashmir and may discuss Kashmir in the larger context of the ****** situation. 

But Kashmir will figure in some way when Obama meets PM Manmohan Singh,'' said analyst Syed Malik. 

The Mirwaiz expressed open disappointment with the US in his talks with the embassy officials. He said Washington had been ''criminally silent on ''the ''human rights violations'' by Indian security forces 
during the course of the ongoing peaceful agitation. He reminded the team that it was Washington that consistently told Kashmiris to give up the gun and go in for peaceful protests instead. 

*Malik and the Mirwaiz both made a strong appeal for the US to exert pressure on India and Pakistan to resolve Kashmir for peace and stability in south Asia.
*

Read more: US officials meet J&K separatist leaders - The Times of India US officials meet J&K separatist leaders - The Times of India


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## Avatar

If you wish to fight, then fight like men and not like cowards. If Jinnah read your words and witnessed todays Pakistan, he would be ashamed beyond description. India had openly supported Mukti Bahini when we did, and India claimed to itself the biggest post WWII surrender from the resulting war. It was humanitarian, the evil that was going on in that part of the world is unspeakable.

From sponsoring and supporting terrorism you have achieved nothing but problems. It saddens me to know some people are actually proud of these terrorists.


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## VCheng

There have been a lot of meetings in Washington DC already with Kashmiri intermediaries, and this meeting is just a part of that ongoing process.


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## RamGorur

Asim Aquil said:


> TTP is not fighting against an illegal occupation force. India is doing something illegal, Pakistan is the legal authority over its regions.


UN is on record requiring Pakistan to not only completely withdraw from all of Kashmir but requires the administration of the evacuated territory to be handed over to the local authority to be supervised by UN itself. That is hardly an acknowledgment of Pakistan's 'legal authority over it's regions' in Kashmir.

On the other hand India is not only to retain security forces but carry on the administration of the part that is under its possession.



> Kashmir being a disputed territory, it becomes our right to fight Indian soldiers there. There is no question of targeting anyone but the soldiers since we are fighting to save ALL civilians from India's tyranny.


Dispute or not, it still doesn't give you any 'right to fight Indian soldiers there' unless you are claiming that blatantly violating UN mandated cease fire as also your 'right'.

_The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan agree to *appeal to their respective peoples to assist in creating and maintaining an atmosphere favorable to the promotion of further negotiations*._ (Part I/E of resolution of 13th August, 1948)


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## sms

Asim Aquil said:


> Perhaps you Indians can at least comprehend logic and the English language at least. Terrorism has to be inflicted against civilians and not soldiers for it to actually qualify as terrorism. There's no point to one being a soldier if they keep crying foul and claim terrorism. Them being terrified is good for their enemy - the enemy is not going to win by singing lullabies.
> 
> You're on disputed territory. You won't allow a peaceful solution. Your choices, fight or flight. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 PM ----------
> 
> 
> *India's stand is status quo. Pakistan's stand is to break that status quo. There's no ambiguity on that either*.



If You are really sincere and wants to solve the problem, why don&#8217;t your take initiative to break status quo by declaring P-O-K a free country or at least conduct plebiscite there?


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## Rajkumar

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> For the indians who are questioning...
> 
> Friends (enemies whatever you like)... The problem that you have here on this forum is that you are talking to a certain section of Pakistani society which for a lot of issues does not represent the common man on the street in Pakistan... The Jihadi organizations that sprang up against India has been something that is inevitable in a society that has nothing much to offer their citizens... Poor people with no decent jobs with the media bombarding them with Indian atrocities in Kashmir on a daily basis... of course you will have people wanting to fight against India... The Pakistani elite decided to use that to keep these people busy... They used these groups and helped them initially... This helps the Army as well because then the Army does not have to do what it is supposed to do i.e fight wars/liberate occupied land etc and instead they can just live a peaceful life... and rule the country in the form of American backed puppets like Musharaf...
> 
> The questions you are asking on this forum can never be answered by these people... The Jihadi organizations served an important purpose which was to channel the anger that ordinary man on the street faces against these corrupt leaders be it both civilian or military and use that anger against our arch rival India... Musharaf perhaps now realizes that we need to keep these groups as he has nothing better to offer them than a quick path to paradise...



most realistic reply so far unlike some "seniors". i can tell the story from indian point of view. pak did what it judged to be right rather i should say it used methods out of rush like 1989 militancy program or kargil fiasco. india made sure that pak will be seen as epicenter of terror which went quite well at lest on diplomacy level but they failed on internal level. i think mushraff knows the fact that india will never let go kashmir and there are many reasons for that and the cry for plebiscite will never be fulfilled .. chuckle.. Pakistan needs to adopt a different strategy.


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## pmukherjee

TATA said:


> *Go and tell this to Admin "Asim Aquil" who have started this thread specially and quoted "The Bharati press and the BBC has misquoted the Der Spiegel interview with Pervez Musharraf."*



Asim Aquil was blaming India for *defaming* the guy who is desperate to give a boost to the launch of his political career by 'spilling the beans'. What a comedy!!! Everyone knows that Pakistan has been *'running with the hare and hunting with the hounds'* for many decades. Now someone tries to make a fine distinction between 'it was formed' and 'we formed it'. What would you call this? A case of mistaken and misplaced loyalty? After all, Musharraf seems to be extremely sure that the idea that Pakistan trains and supports terrorists to achieve its national objectives will catapult him to power in Pakistan once again. Good show guys. Keep it up.


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## Capt.Popeye

VCheng said:


> _"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". _





"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and then, another man's cannon fodder"

This has'nt led anyone anywhere. Only apologists have to use these *fig leaves*; _ad nauseam_.


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## VCheng

Capt.Popeye said:


> "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and then, another man's cannon fodder"
> 
> This has'nt led anyone anywhere. Only apologists have to use these *fig leaves*; _ad nauseam_.



Quoting that aphorism was meant to indicate that complex issues cannot depend on who wears what title.


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## nForce

Fasih Khan said:


> *India can opt to give the Kashmiris the democratic right to vote in a plebiscite, or else the gun would have to be picked up to kill Indian soldiers.*
> 
> *Absolutely Correct.*



Its easy to say when you are not the one pulling the trigger but pressing the keys on a keyboard.


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## arihant

Sorry but thread starter must have got confused with all sudden happenings.


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## Hawkish

Surprise, Surprise. The world was thinking the Kashmere fighters came from Moon. Another Dagger in Pakistan Foreign policy. As much I like Musharraf as an elequent speaker, he is losing his brain now a days.

Better to keep him inside Pakistan. He will do more damage as an outsider. The guy has no work now and keep running his mouth every where


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## Hawkish

During the forthcoming visit, US is likely to push the Musharraf- Singh Formula. 
US, India and rest of the world sees this as a practical and permanent solution to the Kashmir Problem. The solution will be to internationalize the current border and facilitate free trade / people exchange. This is not in Pakistan's favor. But the wind is blowing in this direction. Success of India's aggressive foreign policy. Presence of militant groups in Pakistan has put a big dent on Kashmir's freedom.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Rajkumar said:


> most realistic reply so far unlike some "seniors". i can tell the story from indian point of view. pak did what it judged to be right rather i should say it used methods out of rush like 1989 militancy program or kargil fiasco. india made sure that pak will be seen as epicenter of terror which went quite well at lest on diplomacy level but they failed on internal level. i think mushraff knows the fact that india will never let go kashmir and there are many reasons for that and the cry for plebiscite will never be fulfilled .. chuckle.. Pakistan needs to adopt a different strategy.



Agreed... this different strategy should be a complete change of system that exists in our country today... Setup institutions that would work for everyone regardless of people's religion, ethnicity... improve the economic/social/educational situation of the people of Pakistan...

After this India can be invited to join such a state... The many problems that afflict our nation are the same that afflict India... same poverty and misery... Once a system of justice is established then let everyone taste the sweetness of it regardless if they are Hindu or Muslim or Sikh... 

This however is wishful thinking... We are having such a huge problem achieving our goals in Pakistan which claims to be a country of Muslims... its impossible that the people who rule India would agree to give up their power... Then the matter between us shall be decided by the sword...

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## graphican

Asim Aquil said:


> What did Musharraf say about mlitant groups in Kashmir | Pakistan Patriot



Why the holy **** will Musharaf say anything like that? That was totally unasked for and fundamentally against National Interest and Kashmir struggle. This guy has nothing that we were so hyped about. He is "Used Kartoos" which he likes to call x-army personals.. now he is also a Used Kartoos and getting pain for the country. I am sure he doesn't need an opposition to destroy his image, he is self-sufficient and only needs few months to ruin his last bit of remaining respect.

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## WHF

Fasih Khan said:


> *India can opt to give the Kashmiris the democratic right to vote in a plebiscite, or else the gun would have to be picked up to kill Indian soldiers.*
> 
> *Absolutely Correct.*



Yeaaaaah Democrasy!!!! muslims want democrasy rights to abolish democrasy( i.e implement shariat)..
Comon for wat reasons r d kasmiri muslims(kashmiri muslims and not jammu muslims, and kasmir is not J & K, kashmir is small part of J & K) want democrasy in plebisite?? just to abolish democrasy and implement shariat, and that would mean anarchy to the life of non muslims and non snnis in J & K..

AFA picking up guns against indian soldiers Hmmm Allah knows what will happen to the Lords army

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## S_O_C_O_M

*Geelani denouces arrest of prominent Kashmiri scholar​*
TopNews 
Written by KMS 
Tuesday, 05 October 2010 18:31 



Srinagar, September 05, 2010: The Chairman of All Parties Hurriyat Conference, Syed Ali Shah Geelani has strongly denounced the arrest of noted scholar and writer, Altaf Hussain Nadvi by the Indian forces and termed it frustration of the occupation authorities.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani in a statement issued in Srinagar said that Indian forces were killing and arresting innocent Kashmiri people to suppress their ongoing "Quite Kashmir Movement". Condemning the firing on innocent civilians by the Indian army during a crackdown at Nagabal in Shopian, in which four persons were injured, Geelani said that the occupation authorities had reactivated army to lay sieges of human habitations, conduct crackdowns and arrest civilians especially the students.

Lauding the courage and bravery of people of Occupied State of Jammu and Kashmir (OSJK) Syed Ali Shah Geelani said, We have been pushed to the wall and we are in a do or die state of position. If we lose our courage, we will pass on the chains of slavery to our coming generations. 


He appealed to the people to stage peaceful demonstrations from Maghrib to Isha prayers and raise pro-freedom slogans from loudspeakers of the mosques.

Syed Ali Gilani has also expressed serious concern over the crackdowns against Hurriyat leaders and activists by Indian troops. According to the spokesman of APHC, he said that Indian troops, during raids and crackdowns, were not only harassing the inmates especially women but also damaging the precious household goods.

He said that the families and relatives of the illegally detained Hurriyat leaders and activists were not being allowed to meet them in jails. He said that police after arrest detained Hurriyat leader, Muhammad Shafi Rashi in Kupwara sub-jail but when his family members went there, they were not allowed to meet him.

The spokesman said that the occupation authorities were treating the Hurriyat leaders and activists like habitual criminals for continuing struggle for securing right of Self-Determination. He deplored that, on one side, the authorities were talking about the release of illegally detained Hurriyat leaders, while on the other, arresting the innocent youth.

Another senior Hurriyat leader and the Vice Chairman of Jammu and Kashmir Muslim League, Masarrat Alam Butt has said that India wants to crush the Kashmiris ongoing Quite Kashmir Movement through illegal arrests of Hurriyat leaders and use of brute force.


Masarrat Aalam Butt, while addressing a party meeting held in Srinagar, said that the recent surge in the movement had frustrated the occupation authorities and they were targeting the innocent people of the territory to break their resolve.

The Hurriyet leader said that New Delhi had started war against the people of Occupied State of Jammu and Kashmir but the morale of Kashmiris was very high and they were determined to continue their liberation struggle despite the cruelties and barbarism by the Indian police and troops. Masarat Alam Butt also denounced the arrest of brother-in-law of Hurriyet leader, Feroz Ahmad Khan and others.

A resident of Srinagar, Shabbir Hussain Khan, who has helped save hundreds of lives by donating blood regularly, is battling with multiple fractures due to thrashing by the troops of Indian Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF).

On August 16, the CRPF trooper asked Shabbir and members of Red Cross Society to get down from their vehicle when they were on way to Soura hospital for blood donation. They were beaten to pulp without any reason. Shabbir received multiple injuries in shoulder, neck, left arm and ribs.


Shabbir, who has donated blood for over 126 times, said that even in India, blood donors are facilitated to reach the needy people but situation in occupied Kashmir was contrary. Instead of ensuring our safe passage forces are beating us ruthlessly pushing needy people towards death, he added.

Geelani denouces arrest of prominent Kashmiri scholar


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## Hoodibaba

One thief denounces the arrest of another thief.


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## PeacefulIndian

The writer was in so much hurry to post this propaganda article, he even forgot to do a spell check ('denouces'). 

And what a sorry piece of junk this is - 



> Shabbir, who has donated blood for over 126 times, said that even in India, blood donors are facilitated to reach the needy people but situation in occupied Kashmir was contrary. &#8220;Instead of ensuring our safe passage forces are beating us ruthlessly pushing needy people towards death,&#8221; he added.



If that were the case, where did he donate the blood over 126 times? In Papua New Guinea?


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## S_O_C_O_M

PeacefulIndian said:


> The writer was in so much hurry to post this* propaganda *article, he even forgot to do a spell check ('denouces').
> 
> And what a sorry piece of junk this is -
> 
> 
> 
> If that were the case, where did he donate the blood over 126 times? In Papua New Guinea?



we all know barathis are experts in propagandism.


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## Kinetic

S_O_C_O_M said:


> we all know barathis are experts in propagandism.



Than what is 'markthetruth'???? The blog your are quoting?  I don't think 'barathis' have such blog.... you got time. 

And how did Mr. Altaf Hussain Nadvi became a noted scholar and writer???


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## jha

Why are making the life difficult for Geelani saab..Why dont give him the easy way out. But what else can we expect from this spineless leadership we have.


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## Perceptron

Mark the Bullshit. Enough Said and enough read !!!


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## sasuke

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *Geelani denouces arrest of prominent Kashmiri scholar​*
> TopNews
> Written by KMS
> Tuesday, 05 October 2010 18:31
> 
> 
> 
> Another senior Hurriyat leader and the Vice Chairman of Jammu and Kashmir Muslim League, Masarrat Alam Butt has said that India wants to crush the Kashmiris ongoing *Quite Kashmir Movement* through illegal arrests of Hurriyat leaders and use of brute force.
> 
> 
> A resident of Srinagar, Shabbir Hussain Khan, who has helped save hundreds of lives by donating blood regularly, is battling with multiple fractures due to thrashing by the troops of Indian Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF).
> 
> On August 16, the CRPF trooper asked Shabbir and members of Red Cross Society to get down from their vehicle when they were on way to Soura hospital for blood donation. They were beaten to pulp without any reason. Shabbir received multiple injuries in shoulder, neck, left arm and ribs.
> 
> 
> *Shabbir, who has donated blood for over 126 times,* said that even in India, blood donors are facilitated to reach the needy people but situation in occupied Kashmir was contrary. Instead of ensuring our safe passage forces are beating us ruthlessly pushing needy people towards death, he added.
> 
> Geelani denouces arrest of prominent Kashmiri scholar



Quite Kashmir movement? Hilarious  Anyways, those idiots just destroy their own public property and want others to rebuild them again? Stupid bunch of ignorants. 

Shabbir donated 126 times? Generally, you shouldn't donate blood more than once in 3 months. here they say you need to wait for atleast 6 months. If you do it regularly, you wud just kill yourself. 
A little math here just shows that Shabbir is donating blood for 43 years(assuming avg gap of 3 months)?  nice ...

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## booo

sasuke said:


> Shabbir donated 126 times? Generally, you shouldn't donate blood more than once in 3 months. here they say you need to wait for atleast 6 months. If you do it regularly, you wud just kill yourself.
> A little math here just shows that Shabbir is donating blood for 43 years(assuming avg gap of 3 months)?  nice ...



caught him pants down


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## Areesh

> Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah on Thursday attracted rare appreciation from unexpected corner-- hardline Hurriyat chairman Syed Ali Shah Geelani -- for calling the instrument of accession &#8220;temporary and conditional&#8221; and describing Kashmir as "an international dispute."* &#8220;The fact of the Kashmir dispute is so stark that willingly or unwillingly Omar Abdullah had to accept the fact that Kashmir is an international dispute,&#8221;* said Geelani in a statement issued today.
> 
> *Abdullah on Wednesday addressed the state Assembly and delivered a passionate speech wherein he described the accession as temporary and termed Kashmir a global issue.*
> *
> &#8220;Abdullah&#8217;s statement is success of the Hurriyat stand over the Kashmir dispute&#8230;the historical facts of the dispute are so strong that they speak for themselves --- from the United Nations to J-K Assembly,&#8221;* said Geelani.
> 
> He was quick to take a dig at the chief minister. &#8220;What chief minister said in the assembly, like accession is conditional and temporary, is just half truth. The very instrument of accession is doubtful. India in 1947 promised people of Kashmir that it will withdraw troops after situation will normalize and hold a plebiscite. That did not happen,&#8221; said Geelani.
> 
> &#8220;As long as illegal occupation of Kashmir is not ended, no change in nomenclature like calling chief minister Wazir-e-Azam will work,&#8221; said Geelani.



Geelani praises Omar for describing Kashmir international dispute


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## DGMO

Hmmm, wonder how the Centre reacts to Omar's pretty controversial words, and even that in the State Assembly!

The quotes in full:
_Omar had said, "J&K had not merged with the Union but acceded to it under an agreement. The Kashmir issue cannot be resolved by addressing development alone. It is a political issue and needs a political solution." He had asked leaders to desist from harping on "Kashmir is an integral part of India".​_IBN Live

I see the BJP are already applying strong pressure on Cong to act. I wonder if this has legs as a story, or if it will just fizzle out.

Nonetheless, strong words from the usually timid CM. Has he said anything similar before?


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## Malik Usman

You can't hide truth under 1000 covers......it will come how much you will hide this.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Thursday, 07 October 2010
Shawwal 27, 1431**UN Chief Expresses Concern over Kashmir Issue*​


> UNITED NATIONS: United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, expressing concern over the killings in Indian occupied Kashmir Valley, has again called for an immediate end to violence and has urged for restraint while regretting the loss of life.
> 
> More than 110 Kashmiris have been killed in the mass unrest that broke out early June following protests over spate of killings by Indian police.
> 
> When at his press conference Wednesday, the UN chief&#8217;s attention was drawn to the deteriorating situation in Kashmir and asked whether he was prepared to offer his good-offices to resolve the decades-old dispute since bilateral efforts have failed, Ban said he could only use his good offices when both parties - India and Pakistan - agreed to such a course.
> 
> &#8220;I regret the latest loss of life. I have been calling for an immediate end to violence and urge calm and restraint by all concerned,&#8221; Ban however said.
> 
> &#8220;That is the position of the United Nations at this time.&#8221;
> 
> &#8220;As far as this role of good offices is concerned, the United Nations normally takes that initiative when requested by both parties concerned,&#8221; Ban told journalists during his monthly briefing.
> 
> &#8220;India and Pakistan, they are neighbouring countries, important nations in that region &#8212; peace and security would have important implications,&#8221; he said.
> 
> Last week, representatives of India and Pakistan had a verbal duel in the UN General Assembly after Indian External Affairs Minister SM Krishna accused Pakistan of being behind the current unrest in Kashmir.
> 
> Pakistan rejected India&#8217;s allegation, urging New Delhi to stop its state-sponsored terrorism in Kashmir and grant the Kashmiri people their UN-mandated right to self-determination.
> 
> Later both sides cancelled a scheduled meeting after the Pakistani foreign minister said the talks should be made &#8220;meaningful&#8221; by including the festering dispute over Kashmir on the agenda.




UN boss expresses concern over Kashmir Issue - GEO.tv

---------- Post added at 02:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:52 AM ----------

india has also been censured for mis-labelling its troops as UN peace-keepers in the valley

most unfortunate and un-becoming of a so-called 'responsible democracy'


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## Von Hölle

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> UN Chief Expresses Concern over Kashmir Issue
> india has also been censured for mis-labelling its troops as UN peace-keepers in the valley
> 
> *most unfortunate and un-becoming of a so-called 'responsible democracy*'



Yep whatever!!..In words of Mr Krishna..we don't need a certificate of democracy and least of all, one from Pakistan!!

btw same news different perspectives.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...akistan-both-ask-sec-gen-ban.html#post1186373


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## BATMAN

riju78 said:


> this story is from 5 days back and today dear musharaff admitted to training militant groups to fight in kashmir....



Wrong!!! he did not admitted to any such thing.

And, stop justifying India's 60 year long state sponsored terrorism against minorities and low cast.

Gujrat, Ayodhia, Hyderabad, Kashmir, Assam, Jharkand, Punjab..... UN turning blind eye....... does not make UN a terrorist body.


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## Camdor

BATMAN said:


> Wrong!!! he did not admitted to any such thing.
> 
> And, stop justifying India's 60 year long state sponsored terrorism against minorities and low cast.
> 
> Gujrat, Ayodhia, Hyderabad, Kashmir, Assam, Jharkand, Punjab..... UN turning blind eye....... does not make UN a terrorist body.




If you have better deiplomatic relations better understanding with the world then sue us!!! I am speaking openly!!!

do not forget what your army did in Bangladesh and Balochistan and now Karachi is unstable. So please.. Thand rakhh!!!

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## SandsofTime

*Kashmir didnt merge with India, says Abdullah 
*

By Jawed Naqvi
Friday, 08 Oct, 2010 








NEW DELHI: Days after Indian Foreign Minister S.M. Krishna told the world that Jammu and Kashmir was an integral part of India, the chief minister of the disputed Himalayan region claimed on Thursday that his state had acceded to India not merged with it.

Indias main opposition Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) condemned the remarks by Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah as anti-national.

Indias ruling Congress party which lends support to Mr Abdullah was silent on the issue.

Jammu and Kashmir cannot be placed at par with Hyderabad or Junagarh, Mr Abdullah told the state assembly in Srinagar.

The accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India has occurred under an agreement. We have not broken that agreement nor we have taken it back but you have gradually demolished it. We both (referring to BJP) were required to uphold and respect the agreement. Many say that much water has flown down the Jhelum since then, Mr Abdullah said.

We also agree, but it is still a fact that Jammu and Kashmirs accession to India is under an agreement and it is not the merger. For this reason special provision has been made in the Constitution of India.

Earlier, taking a dig at the BJPs approach towards the present situation, he said: It is easy to say that Jammu and Kashmir is the integral part of India and it sounds nice to the ears but if there is no doubt in your minds and hearts on this account, why you are time and again shouting this slogan from the top of your voices? Why there is any need of saying this again and again?

Why same slogan is not being raised for Tamil Naidu or any other state? At one hand you are granting special status to Jammu and Kashmir, on the other you voice for removing it from the constitution. You have doubt in your hearts, he said.

The Indian parliament in 1994 passed a resolution that Pakistans control over Azad Kashmir was the only wrong that needed to be undone with regard to Kashmir.

A mass campaign against Indian occuption of Kashmir in recent weeks has seen the death of over a hundred peaceful protesters, shot dead by security forces.

Mr Abdullah warned against the consequences of not addressing the political issue of the state politically and said. Dont blame me for future consequences on this count. He said either we have to work sincerely to stop this unrest and bloodshed once and for all or we will be contributing to the unabated disturbances and killings.

Kashmirs separatist leaders have said that reports of US back-channel diplomacy to urge India to resolve the issue before President Barrack Obamas visit to India next year offered rare hope for a resolution to the dispute. India says there is no room for mediation by a third country over Kashmir.

Pakistan had accused Mr Krishna of making a self-serving claim at the United Nations General Assembly about Jammu and Kashmir being an integral part of the country. Mr Abdullahs comments were equally questioning of Indias off- again on-again stance on the dispute.

AP adds: The assembly erupted in violence when opposition lawmakers scuffled with security guards to protest a suggestion that only a deal between India and Pakistan could bring peace to the region.

Three lawmakers from BJP were treated for bruises and cuts and one security marshal also suffered minor injuries.

To quell the violence, the Indian government has debated easing some harsh security laws in effect in the troubled region, pulled down some bunkers in Srinagar this week and discussed bringing economic development to the area.

But Mr Abdullah told the assembly Wednesday that these measures would not solve the overall dispute over the region.

Kashmir is an issue between two neighbors. It is an international issue ... It is a political issue and cannot be addressed through development, employment or good governance, he said, adding that Kashmiris also should be involved in the discussions on their future.

When the session started on Thursday, angry BJP lawmakers, and legislators from two other local parties, chanting slogans against Mr Abdullah, rushed to the podium and fought against security marshals who were trying to push them back.

The speaker later ordered them ejected. The BJP declared it would boycott the remainder of the session ending this weekend in protest.


DAWN.COM | Front Page | Kashmir didn?t merge with India, says Abdullah


----------



## Patrician

Pakistan: India is conducting state terrorism

UN: We will not intervene unless BOTH India AND Pakistan tell us to.

My question to all Pakistanis, does this not make UN also a terrorist organisation according to your delegates?


----------



## bandit

*India conducting state terrorism in Kashmir, Pakistan tell U.N. *

*"We won't do anything until India asks us": UN tells Pakistan*

There goes the UN card, who Pakistan gonna run to now?



> &#8220;As far as this role of good offices is concerned, the United Nations normally takes that initiative when requested by both parties concerned,&#8221; Ban told journalists during his monthly briefing.
> 
> &#8220;India and Pakistan, they are neighbouring countries, important nations in that region &#8212; peace and security would have important implications,&#8221; he said.


----------



## third eye

Politicians will sell their Grandmother to stay in power. The same Gent with his party was a part of BJP led Govt as a minister & his dad was aspiring to the President .

He is now attempting to switch boats in mainstream and thus trying to steal the march from PDP.

Petty politics.


----------



## S_O_C_O_M

*Kashmir didnt merge with India, says Abdullah​ ​*
By Jawed Naqvi 
Friday, 08 Oct, 2010 





Jammu and Kashmir cannot be placed at par with Hyderabad or Junagarh, Omar Abdullah told the state assembly in Srinagar. AFP photo 

NEW DELHI: Days after Indian Foreign Minister S.M. Krishna told the world that Jammu and Kashmir was an integral part of India, the chief minister of the disputed Himalayan region claimed on Thursday that his state had to India not merged with it. 

Indias main opposition Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) condemned the remarks by Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah as anti-national. 

Indias ruling Congress party which lends support to Mr Abdullah was silent on the issue. 

Jammu and Kashmir cannot be placed at par with Hyderabad or Junagarh, Mr Abdullah told the state assembly in Srinagar. 

The accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India has occurred under an agreement. We have not broken that agreement nor we have taken it back but you have gradually demolished it. We both (referring to BJP) were required to uphold and respect the agreement. Many say that much water has flown down the Jhelum since then, Mr Abdullah said. 

We also agree, but it is still a fact that Jammu and Kashmirs accession to India is under an agreement and it is not the merger. For this reason special provision has been made in the Constitution of India. 

Earlier, taking a dig at the BJPs approach towards the present situation, he said: It is easy to say that Jammu and Kashmir is the integral part of India and it sounds nice to the ears but if there is no doubt in your minds and hearts on this account, why you are time and again shouting this slogan from the top of your voices? Why there is any need of saying this again and again? 

Why same slogan is not being raised for Tamil Naidu or any other state? At one hand you are granting special status to Jammu and Kashmir, on the other you voice for removing it from the constitution. You have doubt in your hearts, he said. 

The Indian parliament in 1994 passed a resolution that Pakistans control over Azad Kashmir was the only wrong that needed to be undone with regard to Kashmir. 

A mass campaign against Indian occuption of Kashmir in recent weeks has seen the death of over a hundred peaceful protesters, shot dead by security forces. 

Mr Abdullah warned against the consequences of not addressing the political issue of the state politically and said. Dont blame me for future consequences on this count. He said either we have to work sincerely to stop this unrest and bloodshed once and for all or we will be contributing to the unabated disturbances and killings. 

Kashmirs separatist leaders have said that reports of US back-channel diplomacy to urge India to resolve the issue before President Barrack Obamas visit to India next year offered rare hope for a resolution to the dispute. India says there is no room for mediation by a third country over Kashmir. 

Pakistan had accused Mr Krishna of making a self-serving claim at the United Nations General Assembly about Jammu and Kashmir being an integral part of the country. Mr Abdullahs comments were equally questioning of Indias off- again on-again stance on the dispute. 

AP adds: The assembly erupted in violence when opposition lawmakers scuffled with security guards to protest a suggestion that only a deal between India and Pakistan could bring peace to the region. 

Three lawmakers from BJP were treated for bruises and cuts and one security marshal also suffered minor injuries. 

To quell the violence, the Indian government has debated easing some harsh security laws in effect in the troubled region, pulled down some bunkers in Srinagar this week and discussed bringing economic development to the area. 

But Mr Abdullah told the assembly Wednesday that these measures would not solve the overall dispute over the region. 

Kashmir is an issue between two neighbors. It is an international issue ... It is a political issue and cannot be addressed through development, employment or good governance, he said, adding that Kashmiris also should be involved in the discussions on their future. 

When the session started on Thursday, angry BJP lawmakers, and legislators from two other local parties, chanting slogans against Mr Abdullah, rushed to the podium and fought against security marshals who were trying to push them back. 

The speaker later ordered them ejected. The BJP declared it would boycott the remainder of the session ending this weekend in protest. 

DAWN.COM | Front Page | Kashmir didn?t merge with India, says Abdullah

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## S_O_C_O_M

*Geelani urged the world to react ​*

TopNews 
Written by KMS 

Thursday, 07 October 2010 19:42 







Srinagar, October 07, 2010: After the puppet regime of Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK) had finally acknowledged the detentions of more than 700 Kashmiri protestors.

The Chairman of All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) Syed Ali Shah Geelani has appealed to various international human rights bodies and watch dogs to send their representatives to OSJK to review the human rights situation in occupied territories.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani urged the international community to take cognisance of the stepped up Indian state terrorism. He denounced the illegal detentions of Kashmiri youth and innocent killings by Indian forces.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that the world community should press India to grant people of the territory their birthright of Self-Determination. He appreciated the stance of the Peoples Republic of China over the dispute on Jammu & Kashmir. 


Complete shutdown was observed in the occupied territory today in response to a call given by Syed Ali Shah Geelani as part of his "Quit Kashmir Movement". People in Palhalan, Habba Kadal and Kena Kadal remained confined to their homes due to curfew restrictions in the areas.

Another Hurriyat leader, Masarrat Alam Butt in a statement issued in Srinagar urged India to accept Jammu and Kashmir as a disputed territory. The Jammu and Kashmir Democratic Political Movement condemned the unlawful detention of party leaders and activists including Firdous Ahmad Shah and Muhammad Shafi Rashi.

Syed Ali Geelani continued to remain under house arrest. Indian forces were deployed outside his house. On the other hand, complete shutdown was observed in response to the call given by Syed Ali Shah Geelani as part of Quit Kashmir Movement.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani has said that the pro-India parties are trying to sabotage the Kashmiris liberation movement. Syed Ali Shah Geelani termed the discussion on Kashmir unrest in the so-called Legislative Assembly a drama and an intriguing policy to deceive people of the Valley.

He said that the deceptive response of some pro-India political leaders, who shed crocodile tears on the floor of Assembly, was misleading. They are making false statements for resolution of the Kashmir dispute to gain the vote bank, he maintained. If they had a conscience, they should have resigned from the assembly and joined the people in their struggle against the illegal occupation of India, he added.

He also saluted the families of those martyred in the ongoing movement. Kashmir will never forget sacrifices of martyrs families. He clarified that even if India gave all its wealth, still it couldnt compensate the death of the teenagers and youth.

All shops, private offices, petrol pumps, semi-government and private banks remained closed in Srinagar and other major towns and districts of the Valley.

Indian paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force and policemen were patrolling roads, lanes and by lanes in Srinagar to prevent the people from staging pro-freedom and anti-India demonstrations.


Later, The Indian authorities have admitted that 724 people have been abducted since January 2009. A minister in the Indian powered regime in OSJK had said that 322 people had been booked under PSA in the Valley since January this year. These included President of Democratic Freedom Party, Shabbir Ahmad Shah, President of Kashmir High Court Bar Association, Mian Abdul Qayoom, General Secretary, Ghulam Nabi Shaheen, Mohammad Ashraf Sehrai, Aasiya Andrabi, Zaffar Akbar Butt, Firdous Ahmad Shah and Mohammad Shafi Reshi.

The PSA is a black law, which empowers the authorities and men in uniform to detain any person without trial for up to two years. On the other hand, Indian forces had arrested three students, Tauqeer Shamsuddin, a 9th class student, Aqib Ahmad Butt, a class 10 student and Amir Habib Tantray on charges of anti-India demonstrations from Police Housing Colony in Bemina area of the Srinagar city.

Meanwhile, a Srinagar court has granted bail to 12 persons including a 60-year-old, Noor Mohammad Rah and his 40-year-old brother, Mohammad Ayub Rah, who were booked under false cases, while the civilians were not yet released till last reports came in.

The Jammu and Kashmir Peoples League (JKPL) has urged the people of Kashmir to continue peaceful struggle for securing right of Self-Determination. The Acting Chairman of Jammu and Kashmir Peoples League, Mukhtar Ahmad Waza, while addressing a party meeting, paid glowing tributes to the martyrs and reiterated the pledge to take their mission to its logical end.

He said that the people of the OSJK had rendered unprecedented sacrifices for Kashmir liberation and their sacrifices would not be allowed to go waste. He also urged India to give up its unrealistic and rigid stance on Kashmir and take positive steps for settlement of the dispute so that complete peace could be established in the region.

Hurriyat leader and the Vice Chairman of Jammu and Kashmir Muslim League, Masarrat Alam Butt, has urged India to accept Jammu and Kashmir as a disputed territory. Masarrat Alam Butt in a statement issued in Srinagar said that India was trying to dupe the world community by removing few bunkers from the occupied territory. The gross human rights violations by Indian troops in the territory are still continued, he added.


He paid glowing tributes to Kashmiri martyrs who sacrificed their lives for the liberation struggle. Masarrat expressed concern over the continued restrictions in Pattan Palhalan by the occupation authorities for the last 24 days.

Vowing to continue the freedom struggle till its logical conclusion, he denounced the illegal detention of Bar President, Mian Abdul Qayoom and General Secretary, G.N. Shaheen.

On the other hand, the Jammu and Kashmir Democratic Political Movement, in a statement issued in Srinagar, condemned the unlawful detention of party leaders and activists including Firdaus Ahmad Shah, Muhammad Shafi Rashi, Shakeel Ahmad Butt, Fiaz Ahmad Ghanai and Raja Altaf.

Geelani urged the world to react

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## Jade

Now, can any Pakistani member say that Abdullah is Indian Puppet? This rather bold statement confirmed the democratic traditions of India.

As regarding the Omars statement, what he says is J&K enjoys a special status with in the Indian Constitution and there is nothing new in itso be calm

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## KS

And the reaction is :

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/75617-un-help-resolve-kashmir-when-india-pakistan-both-ask-sec-gen-ban.html

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## Jade

Oh Geelani again..his following is rather thin. Even I doubt whether he has considerable following even in Srinagar may be confined only to Sopore

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## WAQAS119

jade1982 said:


> Oh Geelani again..his following is rather thin. Even I doubt whether he has considerable following even in Srinagar may be confined only to Sopore



You must be talking about in India not Indian Occupied Kashmir!!!

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## Areesh

So much for the Kashmir is unbreakable or integral part of India rant. This is what we call a real snub.

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## karan.1970

He did compare it with Tamil Nadu. btw, did he use the word snub anywhere??

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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> He did compare it with Tamil Nadu. btw, did he use the word snub anywhere??



In what context he compared it with Tamil Nadu is also explicit. The snub is clear.

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## Jade

Areesh said:


> So much for the Kashmir is unbreakable or integral part of India rant. This is what we call a real snub.



He never said that Kashmir is not a integral part of India...why extrapolating to such an extant that it becomes illogical

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## roach

Good for Omar, he seems to be getting his act together. He is Indian to the core, but he has been a lazy administrator so far.

This is a carefully considered statement made with the approval of the Congress high command.

I see the outlines of a renewed political and economic strategy as regards Kashmir.

Watch this space

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## KS

WAQAS119 said:


> You must be talking about in India not Indian Occupied Kashmir!!!



Yeah.

Sri Nagar is in India.Atleast now you accepted that.

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## Jade

WAQAS119 said:


> You must be talking about in India not Indian Occupied Kashmir!!!



So you agree with me that Srinagar and Sopore are part of India...a great turnaround

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## Areesh

jade1982 said:


> He never said that Kashmir is not a integral part of India...why extrapolating to such an extant that it becomes illogical



What he said was enough for any sane person to understand. You can make any interpretation which might help you to have a nice sleep.


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> In what context he compared it with Tamil Nadu is also explicit. The snub is clear.



we dont mind our citizens voicing their discontent. As a leader of J&K, he is duty bound to do that, if there is such widespread displeasure in the state.

What you are calling a snub, is a real solid political move. Understand that he is an allied party to Congress that in in power in the center. And no major reactions from Congress so far (over 24 hours now). 

All he is doing here is trying to make inroads into the popularity recently gained by the separatists. 

Part of the multi pronged approach to manage the recent situation.

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## Jade

Areesh said:


> What he said was enough for any sane person to understand. You can make any interpretation which might help you to have a nice sleep.



Lets keep extrapolations aside....so do you agree that Omar is not an GOI puppet?

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## twoplustwoisfour

jade1982 said:


> Oh Geelani again..his following is rather thin. Even I doubt whether he has considerable following even in Srinagar may be confined only to Sopore



He has a HUGE following in pakistan. Unfortunately internationally no one recognises him as a representative of kashmiris

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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> we dont mind our citizens voicing their discontent. As a leader of J&K, he is duty bound to do that, if there is such widespread displeasure in the state.
> 
> What you are calling a snub, is a real solid political move. Understand that he is an allied party to Congress that in in power in the center. And no major reactions from Congress so far (over 24 hours now).
> 
> All he is doing here is trying to make inroads into the popularity recently gained by the separatists.
> 
> Part of the multi pronged approach to manage the recent situation.



Well he pulled the air out of the so called accession documents and unbreakable part of India balloon. As I said one can interpret it anyways for self satisfaction. We will go with the apparent context of his speech.




> &#8220;Kashmir is an issue between two neighbors. It is an *international* issue ... It is a political issue and cannot be addressed through development, employment or good governance,&#8217;&#8217; he said, adding that Kashmiris also should be involved in the discussions on their future.



Enough said.


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## roach

jade1982 said:


> Lets keep extrapolations aside....so do you agree that Omar is not an GOI puppet?



Areesh..........you didn't answer the question

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## Areesh

jade1982 said:


> Lets keep extrapolations aside....so do you agree that Omar is not an GOI puppet?



Well he knew more about IOK than keyboard warriors and BR kids like you and others. He knew the ground realities in IOK and in frustration he said the truth. It isn't related with puppet or not puppet thing.

At least he said the truth unlike his father who is a bigger bast@rd than him.

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## Omar1984

twoplustwoisfour said:


> He has a HUGE following in pakistan. Unfortunately internationally no one recognises him as a representative of kashmiris



Really?

Check out this huge crowd in India Occupied Kashmir lead by Syed Ali Shah Geelani.


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## Jade

Areesh said:


> Well he knew more about IOK than keyboard warriors and BR kids like you and others. He knew the ground realities in IOK and in frustration he said the truth. It isn't related with puppet or not puppet thing.
> 
> At least he said the truth unlike his father who is a bigger bast@rd than him.




It is very much related to puppet thingdo you think he could have made such a statement if he were a puppet of GOI? No

Thank for confirming that he is not a puppet of GOI and that he has a certain constituent that he has to cater to as a elected representative of the state

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## Omar1984

S_O_C_O_M said:


> &#8220;Kashmir is an issue between two neighbors. It is an international issue ... It is a political issue and cannot be addressed through development, employment or good governance,&#8217;&#8217; he said, adding that Kashmiris also should be involved in the discussions on their future.



Thats what Pakistanis have been saying for the past 62 years. Kashmir is a disputed territory between Pakistan and india. Its india that keeps shouting "integral part of india" 





S_O_C_O_M said:


> When the session started on Thursday, angry BJP lawmakers, and legislators from two other local parties, chanting slogans against Mr Abdullah, rushed to the podium and fought against security marshals who were trying to push them back.



Do you have a video clip of that?

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## twoplustwoisfour

Omar1984 said:


> Really?
> 
> Check out this huge crowd in India Occupied Kashmir lead by Syed Ali Shah Geelani.
> 
> 
> YouTube - "Pakistan ka matlab kya : La ilaha illa Allah" say a million Kashmiris in India Occupied Kashmir



I'm on my phone but I'll take your word on the video. But the tell me this;
1. If he is so popular, why is he so afraid of standing in elections?

2. Which country besides pakistan (countries that matter, not azerbaijan, sorry) considers gilani the representative of kashmiris ?


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## Omar1984

twoplustwoisfour said:


> I'm on my phone but I'll take your word on the video. But the tell me this;
> 1. If he is so popular, why is he so afraid of standing in elections?



He and the rest of Hurriyat dont recognize Kashmir to be part of india, thats why they boycott indian elections. Kashmir is a disputed territory and he is right.



twoplustwoisfour said:


> Which country besides pakistan (countries that matter, not azerbaijan, sorry) considers gilani the representative of kashmiris ?



Azerbaijan is a country. All countries matter. What if a Canadian said india didnt matter, how would you feel then.

Only Kashmiris can chose who represents them and by seeing the huge crowd of Kashmiris in the video in my previous post, it looks like Geelani has a lot of support from his people.


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## WAQAS119

jade1982 said:


> So you agree with me that Srinagar and Sopore are part of India...a great turnaround





Karthic Sri said:


> Yeah.
> 
> Sri Nagar is in India.Atleast now you accepted that.

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## Jade

@WAQAS119

The comments of Srinagar and Sopore being part of India have come from you ...so what do you want to prove by posting those photographs.... Just because someone flies an Indian flag in Karachi doesn't mean that Karachi becomes a part of India..right?


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## Frank Martin

First clean up the mess in your house and take action against the suicide blasts happening in Pakistan, then put your head in our house


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## Omar1984



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## KS

WAQAS119 said:


>



*Its extremely sad and embarassing that a pakistani doesnt know which is his flag and which isnt.* 

FYI this is your flag - note the position of the crescent and the one in the tower.

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## Omar1984

jade1982 said:


> @WAQAS119
> 
> The comments of Srinagar and Sopore being part of India have come from you ...so what do you want to prove by posting those photographs.... Just because someone flies an Indian flag in Karachi doesn't mean that Karachi becomes a part of India..right?



Karachi is not a disputed territory between india and Pakistan while Kashmir is.


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## SpArK

No surprises.

Hurriyat Leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani's Arrest - ISI Funding for Kashmiri Militants


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## PakiiZeeshan

OMG.........LOOOOOOL


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## Omar1984

Karthic Sri said:


> *Its extremely sad and embarassing that a pakistani doesnt know which is his flag and which isnt.*
> 
> FYI this is your flag - note the position of the crescent and the one in the tower.



The debate on the Pakistani flag was made before in some other thread.

The Pakistani flags that Kashmiris carry during protest in India Occupied Kashmir are hand-made therefore wont look exactly the same as the original Pakistani flag.

Here is another example of Kashmiris with Pakistani flags in India Occuped Kashmir.







A green flag with crescent moon and star with white bar on the side is Pakistani flag.

Here is a brief history on the flag of Pakistan:

The National Flag of Pakistan (Urdu: &#1662;&#1575;&#1705;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606; &#1705;&#1575; &#1602;&#1608;&#1605;&#1740; &#1662;&#1585;&#1670;&#1605 was adopted in its present form during a meeting of the Constituent Assembly on August 11, 1947, just three days before the country's independence, when it became the official flag of the Dominion of Pakistan.[1][2][3] It was afterwards retained by the current-day Islamic Republic of Pakistan. The flag is a green field with a white crescent moon and five-rayed star at its centre, and a vertical white stripe at the hoist side. Though the green colour is mandated only as 'dark green',[4] its official and most consistent representation is Pakistan green, which is shaded distinctively darker. The flag was designed by Amiruddin Kidwai, and is based on the All-India Muslim League flag.

Before the Second World War, Muslims and Hindus lived together under the British Raj. A number of the Muslims formed the All India Muslim League. After the Second World War, when the partition of India led to the creation of Dominion of Pakistan, the flag of the Muslim League served as the basis for the flag of Pakistan.

The green represents the majority Muslim community in Pakistan, whereas the white stripe represents religious minorities.[5] In the centre, the crescent and star symbolize progress and light respectively.[5] The flag symbolizes Pakistan's commitment to Islam, the Islamic world, and the rights of religious minorities.[6] It is based on the original flag of the Muslim League, which itself drew inspiration from the flag of the Sultanate of Delhi and the Mughal Empire in India.

Flag of Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## SpArK

*Omar again doing something good
*


*50 stone-pelters, 22 separatists held under PSA in JK: Omar*


Srinagar, Oct 6 (PTI) Jammu and Kashmir government today said 50 stone-pelters and 22 separatists were among 322 persons detained under Public Safety Act (PSA) this year.

A total of 322 persons have been detained under PSA in the Valley since January this year. These included 50 stone pelters and 22 separatists, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, who is also holding the Home portfolio, informed the state Assembly.

PSA is a tough law which extends to the whole of Jammu and Kashmir and empowers the state government to detain persons without trial for up to one year for indulging in activities that are likely to disturb public order.

Among others who have been detained under PSA are 51 foreign and 49 local militants and 43 overground workers, he said.

*The Chief Minister said those detained under PSA were 10 Pakistanis and a resident of P0K who had crossed the border illegally.*

15 Myanmar nationals and 27 from Bangladesh were also booked under the PSA, he said.

The breakup of the foreign militants undergoing detention in various jails under PSA were 32 Pakistani nationals, nine each from *** and Afghanistan and one from Bangladesh. They were arrested during various anti-militant operations since 1994, he said.


Among the separatists leaders arrested, 14 belonged to hardline faction of Hurriyat Conference and two to Dukhtaran- e-Millat. The other prominent separatists booked under PSA were Democratic Freedom Party President Shabir Ahmad Shah and Kashmir High Court Bar Association President Mian Abdul Qayoom.

The chief Minister said 402 persons were booked under PSA last year.
He said 183 prisoners have been released from jails during the tenure of the present government.


50 stone-pelters, 22 separatists held under PSA in JK: Omar - *National News ? News ? MSN India


*Now ... everybody ....go back to Omar bashing mode. *

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## twoplustwoisfour

Omar1984 said:


> He and the rest of Hurriyat dont recognize Kashmir to be part of india, thats why they boycott indian elections. Kashmir is a disputed territory and he is right.




Fair enough. He is entitled to his opinion. Doesn't make it right though. 

popularity cannot be gauged by the number of people in a rally. If he has to prove that he's the true representative of kashmiris then he has to stand in elections. No other way to it. 
Azerbaijan is a country. All countries matter. What if a Canadian said india didnt matter, how would you feel then.

Only Kashmiris can chose who represents them and by seeing the huge crowd of Kashmiris in the video


Omar1984 said:


> He and the rest of Hurriyat dont recognize Kashmir to be part of india, thats why they boycott indian elections. Kashmir is a disputed territory and he is right.




Fair enough. He is entitled to his opinion. Doesn't make it right though. 

popularity cannot be gauged by the number of people in a rally. If he has to prove that he's the true representative of kashmiris then he has to stand in elections. No other way to it. 




> Azerbaijan is a country. All countries matter. What if a Canadian said india didnt matter, how would you feel then.





In an ideal world, every nation would have equal say. But its not an ideal world. 

I still don't have my answer though. Which nations consider gilani to be the true representative of kashmiris?


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## KS

Omar1984 said:


> The debate on the Pakistani flag was made before in some other thread.
> 
> The Pakistani flags that Kashmiris carry during protest in India Occupied Kashmir are hand-made therefore wont look exactly the same as the original Pakistani flag.



Then no argument that they are supporting Pakistan.Simple.

Just because the colours resemble another natioons flag doesnt mean they are the same.

By your argument Ireland is a part of India as Irish flag also contains Green,white and Saffron.






Bring better arguments next time.

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## Areesh

jade1982 said:


> It is very much related to puppet thingdo you think he could have made such a statement if he were a puppet of GOI? No
> 
> Thank for confirming that he is not a puppet of GOI and that he has a certain constituent that he has to cater to as a elected representative of the state



That is irrelevant. It was killing of 100+ kids and youth of IOK which frustrated him and he gave this unusual but very much true speech. It has nothing to do with being puppet or not. Central would spank him and he would start giving explanations for his speech. Doesn't matter he said something which is indeed a moral victory for the people of IOK.


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## Peshwa

If anyone knows what real politik is about.....

This is the prime example of it.....Indians know one thing well....thats Diplomacy....

Watch how this "good cop....bad cop" game makes Omar Abdullah the savior and "moses" if you will of the Kashmiris.....

I am truly impressed with this "Great Game"

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## Spring Onion

jade1982 said:


> Now, can any Pakistani member say that Abdullah is Indian Puppet? This rather bold statement confirmed the democratic traditions of India.
> 
> As regarding the Omars statement, what he says is J&K enjoys a special status with in the Indian Constitution and there is nothing new in itso be calm



He seems to be coming to realisation that being an Indian puppet wont do any good to him either for Indians are occupiers and this is the only truth.

He is still an Indian puppet 

the furor in IoK assembly has exposed the so-called Indian attitude towards democratic traditions.

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## Hawkish

Three questions:

1) Fact is majority of kashmirees don't want to stay with India. Is there anyone here who can dispute this? If you dispute it, Are you prepared for referendum in Kashmir to prove your point? (you can have Neutral US observers.)

2) Why is plebiscite per UN agreement is not being considered? 

3) I am not sure Kashmires want to be part of Pakistan. but the discontent of the population with India is clear as crystal. and I understand India resisting giving Kashmir to Pakistan. What about making it sovereign nation?


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## Peshwa

Hawkish said:


> Three questions:
> 
> 1) Fact is majority of kashmirees don't want to stay with India. Is there anyone here who can dispute this? If you dispute it, Are you prepared for referendum in Kashmir to prove your point? (you can have Neutral US observers.)
> 
> 2) Why is plebiscite per UN agreement is not being considered?
> 
> 3) I am not sure Kashmires want to be part of Pakistan. but the discontent of the population with India is clear as crystal. and I understand India resisting giving Kashmir to Pakistan. What about making it sovereign nation?



Beating a dead horse.....

Sift through the countless threads on the Kashmir issue....you will find your answers....

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## Jade

Jana said:


> He seems to be coming to realisation that being an Indian puppet wont do any good to him either for Indians are occupiers and this is the only truth.
> 
> He is still an Indian puppet
> 
> the furor in IoK assembly has exposed the so-called Indian attitude towards democratic traditions.



See puppets dont have their own mindthey follow someoneeither Omar can be a puppet or not be a puppet. He cannot be both. 

Disagreement is a sign of democratic tradition and the furor in J&K assembly has just proved that and not otherwise as you have claimed

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## Jade

Hawkish said:


> Three questions:
> 
> 1) Fact is majority of kashmirees don't want to stay with India. Is there anyone here who can dispute this? If you dispute it, Are you prepared for referendum in Kashmir to prove your point? (you can have Neutral US observers.)
> 
> 2) Why is plebiscite per UN agreement is not being considered?
> 
> 3) I am not sure Kashmires want to be part of Pakistan. but the discontent of the population with India is clear as crystal. and I understand India resisting giving Kashmir to Pakistan. What about making it sovereign nation?



You want answers to the above three questions? better ask your government. I am sure they can answers them pretty deeply


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## Abu Zolfiqar

a bold statement by a man who is under inexorable pressure from the people of occupied Kashmir

he clearly outlines the hypocrisy; the usual fake mantra about "integral part of hindustan"


even those red-dotted BJP walas were injured in scuffles when they went berzerk and tried to charge at him! actually, i wish I could see a video of it 



edit: saw the vid


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## Abu Zolfiqar

> Srinagar, October 08 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, Indian army agents killed a youth in Kishtwar district.
> 
> One, Tariq Hussain Bohru (20), was killed by Indian armed agents at Duggad in Keshwan area of the district. Dead body of a woman, Sajda Begum was recovered in suspicious circumstances near Hampathri Road in Kulgam.
> 
> Meanwhile, at least 20 persons were injured in teargas shelling by Indian paramilitary forces in Srinagar, Sopore, Baramulla, Shopian, Islamabad, Bijbehara, Pulwama and Pampore areas.




Youth martyred, 20 injured in IHK violence | Kashmir Media Service

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## Abu Zolfiqar

> Srinagar, October 08 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, curfew was re-imposed in Srinagar and other major cities and towns, today, to prevent anti India and pro-liberation protests after Juma prayers.
> 
> *The APHC Chairman, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader Syed Ali Gilani and Agha Syed Hassan Al-Moosvi continued to remain under house arrest.*
> 
> At least 20 persons were injured in teargas shelling by Indian police in Srinagar, Sopore, Baramulla, Shopian, Islamabad, Bijbehara, Pulwama and Pampore. The troops thrashed people in Dialgam area of Islamabad, without any provocation. The incident triggered wide spread demonstrations. *Paramilitary troopers attacked a school van and injured its driver at Qamer Wari in Srinagar.*
> 
> Indian army agents killed a youth in Keshwan area of Kishtwar. The dead body of a woman was recovered under mysteries circumstances near Hampathri Road in Kulgam.
> 
> *Commenting on the recent remarks of the Chief Minister, Omer Abdullah, Hurriyet leaders including Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Syed Ali Gilani asked him to translate his words into action and impress upon Indian rulers to stop death and destruction in the occupied territory. *
> 
> Omer Abdullah while addressing the session of the so-called Kashmir Assembly had said that Jammu and Kashmir was an outstanding issue between India and Pakistan and had an international recognition.
> 
> Urging the Indian government to initiate sustained dialogue with Pakistan, he maintained that the issue could not be resolved by the development processes or by providing employment to the people.
> 
> *The High Court Bar Association of occupied Kashmir decided to continue boycott of courts proceedings in protest against the continued illegal detention of its leaders, Mian Abdul Qayoom and Ghulam Nabi Shaheen.*
> 
> The Executive Director of Kashmir Centre London, Professor Nazir Ahmad Shawl in a statement issued in London said that Jammu and Kashmir is a disputed territory and its amicable resolution would bring permanent peace in the region.





Curfew reimposed in Srinagar, other towns | Kashmir Media Service


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## Abu Zolfiqar

the occupational forces (aka the ''sissies'') at it.....




*Indian Troops Harass People, Loot Valuables in iHK​*


> Srinagar, October 06 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, scores of CRPF and policemen stormed the residential houses, thrashed the people and looted valuables including gold and cash.
> 
> The people of Nowhatta told media representatives that CRPF and policemen barged into their houses without any reason and harassed them particularly women and children and decamped with valuables.
> 
> A women, Tota Begum told media men that Indian troops and policemen took away two golden bangles, four rings, one ear ring and a mobile phone and Rs 7,000 in cash. She said that one of the troopers even pointed pistol on her daughter-in-law due to which she fell unconscious.



Indian troops harass people, loot valuables in IHK | Kashmir Media Service


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## Kinetic

Until now Omar Abdullah was bad now he became good over night!!!! BTW its complete mis-interpretation of his words. 


*Kashmir is settled. No one will be ever be able to take a inch of it. Forget about that.*

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## Abu Zolfiqar

*38 Civilians Disabled Due to Police Actions in 4 Months*​


> *Srinagar, October 08 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, at least 38 people have been disabled, due to violent action taken by the Indian paramilitary forces during the last four months.*
> 
> The Health Minister, Sham Lal Sharma in a written reply to a question in the so-called Legislative Assembly said, *As many as 38 civilians were disabled during the protests. Such patients were hit in the eye, either by teargas shells, bullets or pellets*.
> 
> He said that a huge number of civilians had been injured during the protests in the Valley and a considerable number of them received firearm injuries in the face and chest.
> 
> Anti-India protests erupted in the Kashmir Valley after a 17-year-old boy Tufail Ahmad Mattoo was killed when a tear gas shell thrown by police hit him in Srinagar on June 11.
> 
> *At least 119 protesters including young boys and girls have been killed and thousands have been injured by paramilitary and police personnel teargas shelling, bullets and baton charges in the four-month-long unrest.*




38 civilians disabled due to police actions in four months | Kashmir Media Service


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## Kinetic

Hawkish said:


> Three questions:
> 
> 1) Fact is majority of kashmirees don't want to stay with India. Is there anyone here who can dispute this? If you dispute it, Are you prepared for referendum in Kashmir to prove your point? (you can have Neutral US observers.)



most of the Kashmiris want to stay with India and as they are Indian. Its proven by vote in various elections. 



> 2) Why is plebiscite per UN agreement is not being considered?



Because India doesn't want this. 



> 3) I am not sure Kashmires want to be part of Pakistan. but the discontent of the population with India is clear as crystal. and I understand India resisting giving Kashmir to Pakistan. What about making it sovereign nation?



No its not clear. Some separatists were showing their anger doesn't prove anything. Most of the people thinks they are Indian.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

How kind of you to think of us first.

But don't take our word for it! Ask the Kashmiris first, beta. He gets a shoe thrown at him; chaos erupts everytime Mr. Farooq or Mr. Geelani are placed under house arrest (which by now, has become a routine affair)


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## kak1978

> NEW DELHI: Days after Indian Foreign Minister S.M. Krishna told the world that Jammu and Kashmir was an integral part of India, the chief minister of the disputed Himalayan region claimed on Thursday that his state *had to India* not merged with it.



This is called selective omission or misquote something. He said his state *had acceded to India *not merged with it. The original article on Dawn has this line. So any Pakistani who agrees with this line and claims that J&K belongs to Pakistan is contradicting themselves.

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## kak1978

Jana said:


> He seems to be coming to realisation that being an Indian puppet wont do any good to him either for Indians are occupiers and this is the only truth.
> 
> He is still an Indian puppet
> 
> the furor in IoK assembly has exposed the *so-called Indian attitude towards democratic traditions.*



It did not expose anything, it indeed reflected the democratic values of India. The right of the opposition (parties) to express their opinion in assembly is an integral part of a true democracy unless it is not done by throwing stones at security forces.


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## RollingStones

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> *38 Civilians Disabled Due to Police Actions in 4 Months*​
> 
> 
> 38 civilians disabled due to police actions in four months | Kashmir Media Service



A question to: Who do the police in Kashmir report to? Is there a chain of command and if yes, why are the people at the top letting this happen? Any organized force does something for an end result. What is the end goal here? Wouldn't the top guys know that this would alienate the people of the region further and actually decrease their hold on people? The objectives are not clear here. Either that, or the police and paramilitary are rebellious forces who dont follow directions well. Is this the state of affairs in India, where the police/paramilitary dont necessarily follow orders?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

some very interesting and relevant question you ask! For the sake of healthy debate, i'll let the hindustanys here answer first


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## Abu Zolfiqar

kak1978 said:


> This is called selective omission or misquote something. He said his state *had acceded to India *not merged with it. The original article on Dawn has this line. So any Pakistani who agrees with this line and claims that J&K belongs to Pakistan is contradicting themselves.



i'm not convinced


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## PakiiZeeshan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> to all Pakistani comrades:
> 
> click here
> 
> India forces battle Kashmiri protesters; 15 killed - Yahoo! News
> 
> 
> and comment on it; a lot of the commenters have a distorted view of Islam; and of Pakistan's stance on Kashmir. Even small measures like this can make a difference. I saw many interesting comments on there actually.




You can see the true feelings of ********* on Yahoo!They are even praising the killing of Muslims!


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Curfew re-imposed in the whole OSJK ​*
TopNews 
Written by KMS 
Friday, 08 October 2010 17:24 






Srinagar, October 08, 2010: Curfew has been re-imposed in different parts of Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK) including Srinagar and other major cities and towns, today, to prevent anti India and pro-liberation protests after Juma prayers.

The APHC Chairman Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Agha Syed Hassan Al-Moosvi continued to remain under house arrest. At least 20 persons were injured in teargas shelling by Indian police in Srinagar, Sopore, Baramulla, Shopian, Islamabad, Bijbehara, Pulwama and Pampore. The Indian forces went berserk and severely thrashed people in Dialgam area of Islamabad, without any provocation. The incident triggered wide spread demonstrations. Paramilitary troopers attacked a school van and injured its driver at Qamer Wari in Srinagar. Indian army agents killed a youth in Keshwan area of Kishtwar. Dead body of a woman was recovered in mysteries circumstances near Hampathri Road in Kulgam.

Commenting on the recent remarks of the puppet Chief Minister of OSJK, Umer Abdullah, Hurriyat leaders including Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Mirwaiz Umar Farooq asked him to translate his words into action and impress upon his Indian rulers to stop death and destruction in the OSJK. Umar Abdullah, finally, acknowledged yesterday that Jammu and Kashmir was an outstanding issue between India and Pakistan and had an international recognition. Urging the Indian government to initiate sustained dialogue with Pakistan, he maintained that the issue could not be resolved by the development processes or by providing employment to the people.


In order to crush Kashmiri protestors, Indian army agents killed another youth in Kishtwar district. Tariq Hussain Bohru (20), was killed by Indian armed agents at Duggad in Keshwan area of the district. Another Dead body of a woman, Sajda Begum was also recovered in suspicious circumstances near Hampathri Road in Kulgam.

Meanwhile, at least 20 persons were injured in teargas shelling by Indian paramilitary forces in Srinagar, Sopore, Baramulla, Shopian, Islamabad, Bijbehara, Pulwama and Pampore areas.

At least 38 people have been disabled, due to violent action taken by the Indian paramilitary forces during the last four months. As many as 38 civilians were disabled during the protests. Such patients were hit in the eye, either by teargas shells, bullets or pellets., said by the pro-India minister of OSJK.

He said that a huge number of civilians had been injured during the protests in the Valley and a considerable number of them received firearm injuries in the face and chest.

Anti-India protests erupted in the Kashmir Valley after a 17-year-old boy Tufail Ahmad Mattoo was killed when a tear gas shell thrown by police hit him in Srinagar on June 11. At least 119 protesters including young boys and girls have been killed and thousands have been injured by paramilitary and police personnel teargas shelling, bullets and baton charges in the four-month-long unrest.

Curfew and restrictions were re-imposed in the downtown areas of Srinagar and Sopore. The curfew and restrictions were imposed in Khaniyar, Mehraj Gunj, Safakadal, Nowhatta, Habba Kadal, Batamallo, Sopore, Baramulla, Trehgam, Kralpora in Kupwara, Palhallan and Kunzar Tanmarg areas,


Meanwhile, the residents of Dialgam area in Islamabad district said that the paramilitary forces went berserk and severely thrashed the inmates without any provocation. The police and CRPF men without any provocation barged into many houses in our locality, ransacked the household goods, smashed the windowpanes and then severely beat up the inmates including women and children, the residents said. Several people were injured in forces action. The incident triggered wide spread anti-India demonstrations in the area.

The Executive Director of Kashmir Centre London, Professor Nazir Ahmad Shawl has said that Jammu and Kashmir is a disputed territory and its amicable solution would bring permanent peace in the region. Nazir Ahmad Shawl in a statement issued in London said that Kashmir was an international dispute and the world community should help settle the dispute.

He also appealed the international community to help release all illegally detained Kashmiri Hurriyat leaders and activists including Shabbir Ahmad Shah, Nayeem Ahmad Khan, Muhammad Ashraf Sahrai and Zafar Akbar Butt languishing in different jails and interrogation centres of India and the occupied territory.

The Jammu and Kashmir Peoples Movement (JKPM), a constituent of All Parties Hurriyat Conference, has appealed the United Nations Secretary General, Ban Ki-Moon to impress upon India to settle the Kashmir dispute in accordance with the resolutions passed by the UN Security Council. APHC leader and the Chairman of JKPM, Ghulam Ahmed Mir, in a statement said that Indian troops had unleashed a reign of terror across the occupied territory.


He said that it was high time for the world community to ensure peaceful and permanent settlement of the Kashmir dispute to pave way for peace and stability in the whole south Asian region. The APHC leader said in spite of using the worst kinds of atrocities and oppressions, India had miserably failed to crush the Kashmiris freedom struggle.

He said after making supreme sacrifices, Kashmiris had sent a loud and clear message to India and across the world that they were ready to forgo everything to take the ongoing liberation movement to its logical conclusion.

Curfew re-imposed in the whole OSJK


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## Von Hölle

^^ A neutral source required to confirm the news!!


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## karan.1970

The MTM rag.. gimme a break.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Kashmir: Victims of twisted facts​*
*Moderators behave like bus drivers who maneuver the direction of news hour debates according to their tastes. They twist facts cunningly by intermingling unrelated threads often interwoven weirdly​*

Bilal Kaloo

Past four months of stringent curfews and shutdowns in Kashmir has locked the entire population in their homes. Along with this, a simultaneous attempt to inject what we can best describe as twisted version of Indianised Media on Kashmir is fed to Kashmiris regularly. Not because Kashmiris like it but because local media outlets have been banned and rest of those who operate are often gagged.

With this the worlds largest democracy has epitomized the freedom of expression by the exemplary acts that seeks ban on anything that challenges New Delhis authority.

There seems to be no choice for Kashmiris. As stepping out of homes becomes too foolish when shoot-at-sight orders are in effect, options to stay inside home for long is too difficult to kill ones time.

Man is by nature thirsty of knowledge and information and wants to keep himself updated with latest developments in and around him. The hunger for information about the external happenings leaves one with an only option of turning to television sets. Interestingly, one may manage to escape from the bullets being fired on people in the streets outside, but the no-where-leading news hour debates on Delhi and Mumbai-based news channels on Kashmir unrest squeezes ones body and soul as the outcome of such debates is always futile that only adds to the chaos and confusion existing in the Valley.

Crouching helplessly in front of television screens, the scrolling Breaking News actually breaks nothing but only the belief and trust of those living in a fools paradise.

Pleasing phrases, enticing in nature without practical worth raise hopes for a temporary time. Sample this: PM To Hold All Party Meet, CM Meets PM, PM to Announce Eid Gift, Congress Concerned on Kashmir, Kashmir On Edge, AFSPA May Go. And when nothing such occurs in reality, ones trust gap on such news channels expands more. All this leaves one to remind the past and current breaches of trust by New Delhi. 

In many of these debates, the anchors or moderators instead of facilitating or pushing forward the debates act like bus drivers maneuvering the direction of the discussion according to their taste and interests. Divergence is crafted cunningly to intermingle unrelated threads that are interwoven weirdly. When it comes to pro-Kashmiri or pro-freedom participants, the indifference on part of some anchors is obvious as they draw a dividing line in between. The anchors along with pro-Indian participants particularly BJP leaders play different cards to avoid any consensus on the main issue. No doubt Kashmiri pandits suffered in the early phase of the movement, but their pain is projected well beyond more than a lakh Kashmiri coffins. Such disproportionate comparisons can never belittle the legitimacy of the genuine demands that once the prime minister of India Jawahar Lal Nehru itself had promised to the people of Kashmir. Professionalism must be impartial and unbiased and journalism need not to take refuge under the umbrella of nationalism. Arnab Goswami of Times Now while moderating a news hour debates was judgmental about Kashmir conflict. He has no capacity to accommodate and acknowledge reality on the ground. Indian state for him is a sacred cow and he fails to realize that as a journalist his feet lie in the fourth estate and not the Indian state. Infotainment- the marriage of information with entertainment has eroded the rudiments of journalism. Neutrality, impartiality and independence of media are now utopian concepts.

As for as the panelists are concerned, the ex- military generals with twisted moustaches keep commanding the conference screens. They dont debate but dictate. Old habits die hard. These ex-military generals reveal their military mentality without paying heed to the humane element of the excesses perpetrated by soldiers on the innocent civilians of Kashmir. They only defend their national interests neglecting ways and means adopted by men in uniform in carrying out their operations against innocent civilians.

During the fuss over partial withdrawal of AFSPA, the holy book was sanctified on the grounds that soldiers (the saviors of nation) need maximum protection to reflect efficiency in their task.

Why are these experts tongue-tied to justify incidents of Kunan-Poshpora, Chattisinghpora, Pathribal, Machil and the endless list of fake encounters and mass rapes? And such so-called brave and heroic acts were rewarded with medals and promotions rather being censured. Representatives of the political parties especially the spokespersons play a salesmans role for their parties advertising agendas and arrogance together. Personalities that are remotely related to the conflict are presented as experts on Kashmir affairs. Out of sync statements made in these talk shows makes a common Kashmiri boil within.

Instead of analyzing the conflict in its entirety, panelists at times selectively try to debate the trivial matters that sideline the main issue, thus adding to the complexity and confusion. These are perceived as premeditated tactics just to send a message that a simple fact is a conundrum requiring a thorough contemplation before arriving at any concrete consensus. The varied shades of opinion makers want to paint the picture according to their own colours and try to score points and nothing else. These debates are spreading like an epidemic, but what annoys the people of valley is the fact that voice of Kashmiris is given a very least consideration. When innocent killings should have been the prime focus, Pandits, Ladakhis and Jammunities were projected from nowhere as the primary stakeholders that deserve immediate consideration. The corporate media is now a versatile tool in the hands of Indian establishment to mould the perception of Indians in general and the people outside in particular to hoodwink them and save her face from embarrassment. India, though being a strong economy along with having the worlds second largest armed forces, is too weak to acknowledge the true aspects of Kashmir conflict. The aroma of arrogance has intoxicated her, so much, that the promises made by its founding fathers are now thrown out to dogs. But history is testimony to the fact that one can not ride too far on the saddle of hypocrisy. The cold wars of weaponry and armory are now replaced by cold war of information. The innovations and advancements in the art of fact fabrication is now becoming a Special Political Zone (SPZ), where Indian policy makers, politicians and think tanks are hammering and tampering facts and shape them to fit into their national interest. And the final products are being transported and marketed by Indian corporate media after adding some spices of glamour and rhetoric. The universal ethics and principles of journalism find place only in the academic side, but on practical platform these things surrender before the mighty politics.

The reins on media are strongly state-dominated and the vocabularies in the news items on Indian media paint an ugly picture of the peaceful protester on the streets of Kashmir. Tags like stone-pelters, mobsters, trouble-makers, anti-national elements and so on. And the peaceful demonstrations are labeled as instigated, orchestrated, militant backed, Pakistan supported and so on. Isnt the word human being appropriate for innocent Kashmiris that are daily killed by troops here? In the semantics of Indian democracy, Kashmiris do not even qualify for being addressed as human beings at all. The venom of indifference and alienation caused by atrocities and injustices has paralyzed the psyche of Kashmiris. The subjugation is now metamorphosing as newer dimensions of exercising control are continuously explored. In this era of information technology, misinformation is proving to be a deadly weapon. It strangulates facts and is aimed to install new memories that fit into the frames of manipulators. The silent war is on affecting not only the helpless oppressed class but also those who would try to raise voice for them. Bullets can poison the body, the misinformation and misinterpretation, however, poisons minds en mass.

Kashmir: Victims of twisted facts


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## Patrician

self delete. Request the mods to close the thread. my bad.


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## Jade

*JK Indias integral part: Congress*

New Delhi: Congress Friday said Kashmir is an integral part of India and that the question of merger of the state with India was decided on October 26, 1947.
''The question of the merger of Jammu and Kashmir with India was decided on October 26, 1947 when late Maharaja Hari Singh

had announced accession of the entire state with the country, including parts of the state under the illegal occupation by Pakistan,'' Congress spokesperson Manish Tiwari told reporters here, apparently in reference to the speech by Chief Minister Omar Abdullah in the Jammu and Kashmir Assembly.

He, however, did not make any comment on Omar.

''From the time of the first Prime Minister late Jawaharlal Nehru to the present Manmohan Singh, the Congress has believed that Kashmir is an integral part of India,'' Tiwari said.

In reply to a question, he said the situation in Jammu and Kashmir had improved.

''It is the duty of all national parties and parties in the state to make responsible statements about Jammu and Kashmir to help improve the situation,'' he added

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## Jade

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i'm not convinced



It doesn't matter

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## Comet

Just another political stunt to calm the masses. A politician once is a politician always.


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## barcelona

Hawkish said:


> Three questions:
> 
> 1) Fact is majority of kashmirees don't want to stay with India. Is there anyone here who can dispute this? If you dispute it, Are you prepared for referendum in Kashmir to prove your point? (you can have Neutral US observers.)
> 
> 2) Why is plebiscite per UN agreement is not being considered?
> 
> 3) I am not sure Kashmires want to be part of Pakistan. but the discontent of the population with India is clear as crystal. and I understand India resisting giving Kashmir to Pakistan. What about making it sovereign nation?



Your post reminds me of a person who had a China flag n was talking abt india china war how china should attack india n he was exposed by chinese frends like siegecrossbow......................food for thought............................on topic

1.even un chief ruled out peblicite calling it non binding 
2.politics n democracy requires tryin out new way to deal with discontent people.................. try to look abt omar's speech in this light
3.in democracy people do have diffrences they try to negotiate it over a period of time india is vast n diverse country people are bound have diffrent aspirations its upto political class to mould these aspiration according to the founding principles of this country i.e. unity in diversity

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## barcelona

The guy with false chinese flag was Challenger


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Well he pulled the air out of the so called accession documents and unbreakable part of India balloon. As I said one can interpret it anyways for self satisfaction. We will go with the apparent context of his speech.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enough said.



What did change on the ground? Except that a lot of Pakistani people suddenly started liking Omar Abdullah.


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## Areesh

Kinetic said:


> Until now Omar Abdullah was bad now he became good over night!!!! BTW its complete mis-interpretation of his words.
> 
> 
> *Kashmir is settled. No one will be ever be able to take a inch of it. Forget about that.*



Tell this to your employee Omar Abdullah not us. Because we also know you aren't going to give up just an inch of Kashmir but the whole of IOK. Who wants an inch of IOK from you.

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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> What did change on the ground? Except that a lot of Pakistani people suddenly started liking Omar Abdullah.



The killing of Kashmiri kids by the Bharati govt employed terrorist forces for throwing stones. That is the change.


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## KS

I you see closely in the photo these lines are there:

http://www.MarkTheTruth.com , *Source: (unknown)*

What does the bold part mean.?


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## Prometheus

Fasih Khan said:


> *May Allah Kareem Bless the Shuhdaa e Kashmir. Ameen. May India reaches it's End in the Vally of Kashmir. Ameen YaRabul Alameen.*



hey thats looks interesting.................can you plz translate to english?

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## Jade

Areesh said:


> Tell this to your employee Omar Abdullah not us. Because we also know you aren't going to give up just an inch of Kashmir but the whole of IOK. Who wants an inch of IOK from you.



Really...Even your government and your army are not so convinced as you are

It is better you tell this to your army than to us. It is no use telling us


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## nForce

jahangeer yousaf said:


> well well well ....... if those were the millitants then it should have been another episode of pounch sector do i need to remind indians what did happen in pounch or they will re-call it by themselves.....




Do remind us,as far as I know,the place that you are talking about is still a part of India.The last time when the militants backed by NLI tried to take a part of Kashmir by force,they were blown to pieces by the artillery and the aerial bombardments......



> india can kill only innocent ............... india does not has the capability to fight with any arm person ....



Really??thats why Pakistan launched 3 wars and lost all of them,loosing almost half of the country in the process??Regarding killing the innocents,what was Pak Army doing in East Pakistan,before it wasd severed??Picnic??

Significant part of Indian Armed Forces present in Kasmir are made of Kashmiris only.They are their to protect the common people from cross-border terrorists and to maintain the territorial integrity of India.

Pakistan is called the Epicenter of Global terrorism not without a reason.

If you really want Kashmir and that too by force then why play like pussies,by sending handful terrorists from time to time??Try going all out then.....


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## RPK

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> the occupational forces (aka the ''sissies'') at it.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Indian Troops Harass People, Loot Valuables in iHK​*
> 
> Indian troops harass people, loot valuables in IHK | Kashmir Media Service









A CRPF picket is removed by policemen from Margarmal Bagh locality of Srinagar following Centres eight point package to address ongoing unrest in the Jammu and Kashmir. Photo: PTI

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## RollingStones

Omar1984 said:


> The world doesnt revolve around only American media. Guardian is a British news source which was founded in 1821, its not a Pakistani news source, its run by White Christians (which you are pretending to be here in this forum).
> 
> I'm not a propagandist. I never posted false news in this forum or from any news website thats known to write propaganda.
> 
> I post news from all different countries' news source not only American.



The question is: dont British media sensationalize? I would say Kashmir is not a known word in America except for the Cashmere, of course. What is funny to me is how Pakistanis readily say stuff like America wants Kashmir to become this or that without even knowing that Kashmir and its issues are not known to most Americans. That's why you dont see too much news about Kashmir from here. I'd be interested to see why the Brits would be bothered about Kashmir, unless they are writing to some South Asian constituency.


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## Areesh

jade1982 said:


> Really...Even your government and your army are not so convinced as you are
> 
> It is better you tell this to your army than to us. It is no use telling us



Why should I? The past three months are enough to predict the future of IOK.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

so correct you are; I'm doing my best at least to inform my new American friends. It's great to be here in DC. But this isnt about me. Pakistan in America (i.e. the embassy and consulates) have a duty to bring the issue to their attention. Though of course the issue itself of the * DISPUTED TERRITORY *is between the stakeholders --- and yes, that includes (primarily) the Kashmiri peoples themselves and their right to determine their future.


Kashmir is NOT an "integral part" of hindustan just because some officials in delhi say so (blatantly ignoring ground realities of course). Freedom fighters are born out of need, wants and desires that are yet to be met.





our embassy should do more to highlight the plight; seminars, cultural events, lecture speaking at top universities; etc. In fact, I think it would be a good idea to expand our embassy to include an autonomous and somewhat de-centralized Kashmir wing perhaps to undertake this mission.


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## arihant

Prometheus said:


> hey thats looks interesting.................can you plz translate to english?



Brother its in English only.  (at least font)

He said.



Fasih Khan said:


> *May Allah Kareem Bless the Shuhdaa e Kashmir. Ameen. May India reaches it's End in the Vally of Kashmir. Ameen YaRabul Alameen.*



God should bless the kashmiris and india should finish its operation to a end in the valley of kashmir for bringing back the happiness. 

Not sure about the second the sentence, as it is not clearing written. I am not an expert in hindi or urdu.


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## arihant

Areesh said:


> Why should I? The past three months are enough to predict the future of IOK.



oh! and past 60 years and 4 bloody wars are not enough ? 

Great job Omar, proud to be Indian. He is very intelligent and asset for Indian fame.

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## Patrician

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> so correct you are; I'm doing my best at least to inform my new American friends. It's great to be here in DC. But this isnt about me. Pakistan in America (i.e. the embassy and consulates) have a duty to bring the issue to their attention. Though of course the issue itself of the * DISPUTED TERRITORY *is between the stakeholders --- and yes, that includes (primarily) the Kashmiri peoples themselves and their right to determine their future.
> 
> 
> Kashmir is NOT an "integral part" of hindustan just because some officials in delhi say so (blatantly ignoring ground realities of course). Freedom fighters are born out of need, wants and desires that are yet to be met.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> our embassy should do more to highlight the plight; seminars, cultural events, lecture speaking at top universities; etc. In fact, I think it would be a good idea to expand our embassy to include an autonomous and somewhat de-centralized Kashmir wing perhaps to undertake this mission.



Don't you think you are expecting too much from people who couldn't conjure even enough aid for Pakistan's flood victims???

Or you are just underestimating the discerning capabilities of Americans?

Or you are underestimating the now famous 'Indian Lobby'?

Please enlighten me.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

an outsider would think that given hindustan's size, they would have been able to wrestle Kashmir out of everyone's hands (even the Kashmiris themselves)

such is far from the truth however, and Pakistan is MUCH smaller.

with that said, why would we ever surrender our position?




















to answer your question --> if need be, *NO*


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Patrician said:


> Don't you think you are expecting too much from people who couldn't conjure even enough aid for Pakistan's flood victims???



we're dealing with a country that is having its own fiscal/macroeconomic issues

you'd be naiive to think that with the amount of damage caused by the floods, that we'd suddenly expect any generosity similar to what we saw in 2005.

not too long ago there was a global financial crisis (it still lingers); I would expect (and respect) a country that looks after its own first. 

the only people who can rebuild and help are Pakistanis themselves, nobody else. Not the Americans, not the Turks or Chinese. Just Pakistanis.

but that is totally off-topic so no need to talk about it here.



> Or you are just underestimating the discerning capabilities of Americans?



to be honest with you, I'm not interested, nor do I really care. 




> Or you are underestimating the now famous 'Indian Lobby'?



hmmm. 

Again, don't really care. Our position on Kashmir is transparent, justified and easier to project to the audience.

No need for lies, spin or having to dig out a pro-indian "Kashmiri" pundit amidst the overwhelming Muslim majority that is opposed to your occupation and repression of Kashmiris.


your powerful lobby hasn't done too well in 2009-2010. U.S. is still arming us to the teeth, still providing "aid" (which incidentally, is only making a few people rich); your powerful lobby couldn't/didn't stop Pakistan (a nuclear armed non-signatory of the NPT lacking a 'no first use policy' ) from becoming the chair @ IAEA -albeit between you and me, IAEA is about as effective and useful as a one-legged retard in a kicking contest


again -- not related to the atrocities committed by the occupational forces or Kashmir; so we ought to steer back on topic


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## Hulk

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> the occupational forces (aka the ''sissies'') at it.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Indian Troops Harass People, Loot Valuables in iHK​*
> 
> Indian troops harass people, loot valuables in IHK | Kashmir Media Service


Congrats u won make ur own story contest. This is how rumor mill is created. People u have no idea spread false news.


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## Patrician

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> we're dealing with a country that is having its own fiscal/macroeconomic issues
> 
> you'd be naiive to think that with the amount of damage caused by the floods, that we'd suddenly expect any generosity similar to what we saw in 2005.
> 
> not too long ago there was a global financial crisis (it still lingers); I would expect (and respect) a country that looks after its own first.
> 
> the only people who can rebuild and help are Pakistanis themselves, nobody else. Not the Americans, not the Turks or Chinese. Just Pakistanis.
> 
> but that is totally off-topic so no need to talk about it here.
> 
> 
> 
> to be honest with you, I'm not interested, nor do I really care.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hmmm.
> 
> Again, don't really care. Our position on Kashmir is transparent, justified and easier to project to the audience.
> 
> No need for lies, spin or having to dig out a pro-indian "Kashmiri" pundit amidst the overwhelming Muslim majority that is opposed to your occupation and repression of Kashmiris.
> 
> 
> your powerful lobby hasn't done too well in 2009-2010. U.S. is still arming us to the teeth, still providing "aid" (which incidentally, is only making a few people rich); your powerful lobby couldn't/didn't stop Pakistan (a nuclear armed non-signatory of the NPT lacking a 'no first use policy' ) from becoming the chair @ IAEA -albeit between you and me, IAEA is about as effective and useful as a one-legged retard in a kicking contest
> 
> 
> again -- not related to the atrocities committed by the occupational forces or Kashmir; so we ought to steer back on topic



You deflected all my points very nicely. Congrats


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## IBRIS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> the occupational forces (aka the ''sissies'') at it.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Indian Troops Harass People, Loot Valuables in iHK​*
> 
> Indian troops harass people, loot valuables in IHK | Kashmir Media Service


Police demolishing CRPF's post.
propaganda busted.....LOL, nice try

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## third eye

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> an outsider would think that given hindustan's size, they would have been able to wrestle Kashmir out of everyone's hands (even the Kashmiris themselves)
> 
> such is far from the truth however, and Pakistan is MUCH smaller.
> 
> with that said, why would we ever surrender our position?
> 
> to answer your question --> if need be, *NO*



No, Pak must never surrender its position for it is the only issue the nation agrees on and is a neutral subject for all parties who run the nation ( ISI,Army, fundamentalists and occasionally some odd Pol party, in that order ) can agree without treading on each others toes.

Pak must never give up its stance on J&K for it would then run the risk of disintegrating. Disintegration of Pak would not be a good option for the region & the world.

J&K gives PA a reason to stay in control . 

No. Of the two options , holding on to its stand on J&K is better. Helps channelize energies. 

In any case, the dream of utopia often is better than achieving it.

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## Areesh

arihant said:


> oh! and past 60 years and 4 bloody wars are not enough ?



Yeah those 60 years too. A strong omen for signs of things to happen in future. The freedom of Kashmir.



> Great job Omar, proud to be Indian. He is very intelligent and asset for Indian fame.



Yeah great job for this speech Omar.


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## MYSTIC

While entire Europe has turned into a Union, we are still trying to divide each others lands. First it was India dividing Pakistan and Bangladesh and now it is Pakistan trying to divide Punjab and Kashmir from India. 

Both countries needs to grow. So much potential, such a waste.


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## EgO Boy

jade1982 said:


> Now, can any Pakistani member say that Abdullah is Indian Puppet? This rather bold statement confirmed the democratic traditions of India.
> 
> As regarding the Omars statement, what he says is J&K enjoys a special status with in the Indian Constitution and there is nothing new in itso be calm



YES, HE IS AND WILL REMAIN INDIAN PUPPET, JUST TRYING TO HOLD ON TO HIS POLITICAL CAREER, HE WILL SAY ANYTHING.


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## Vector and Scalar

Abdullah ki bhi G@@nd Phattii!!
Joota maro saley ko..

He should not be making such statements,that can cause unrest in the valley.
Such an id!ot he is!


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## Jade

Areesh said:


> Why should I? The past three months are enough to predict the future of IOK.




Really? What about the past 63 years. Are they not enough to predict the future of Kashmir

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## MYSTIC

What would be considered as Kashmir? Would Gilgit-Balistan also fall into Kashmir? What about Jammu and Leh? Northern Areas?

What about the Indus water treaty? How do you think the water would be divided among the three countries. I am pretty sure Kashmir would reserve a lot for themselves as they are already complaining about less water at the moment?

Would Kashmir be declared a no military zone? One of India's main concern would be Kashmir cozying up to Pakistan Army as they have provided financial support to the separatist movement for so long. Kashmir has acted as a buffer for India for very long. If Pakistan would have any presence in Kashmir, it would not go well with India.

Secular or theocratic? What about Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs? They were driven out by same separatist that would most likely rule Kashmir. How can they ensure safety of Hindus and Sikhs?


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## third eye

Could we discuss hell freezing over first before the subject in hand ?

That is likely to happen before.


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## KS

*If* Kashmir was to be a sovereign state......

Thats a very big "If" mate....

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## Tuahaa

MYSTIC said:


> While entire Europe has turned into a Union, we are still trying to divide each others lands. First it was India dividing Pakistan and Bangladesh and now it is Pakistan trying to divide Punjab and Kashmir from India.
> 
> Both countries needs to grow. So much potential, such a waste.



[voldemort voice] ONE CANNOT LIVE WHILE THE OTHER LIVES[/voldemort voice]


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## Markus

Tuahaa said:


> [voldemort voice] ONE CANNOT LIVE WHILE THE OTHER LIVES[/voldemort voice]



It was something like this:-

_*Neither can live while the other survives*_


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## MYSTIC

Karthic Sri said:


> *If* Kashmir was to be a sovereign state......
> 
> Thats a very big "If" mate....



During Musharuff's regime there were serious discussions over a jointly ruled state of J&K. Therefore, having Kashmir as a neutral sovereign state is not a pipe dream. Think of it logically for second, rather getting all patriotic about it. Why do we even need Kashmir? 

A) Buffer zone
B) Indus river

If the three countries come to an agreement that Kashmir would forever be a military free zone with the rights of the country protected by the security council (wonder if there can be an agreement like that), neither India nor Pakistan would have t worry about a war front in the North. Same would hold for China. My only worry is that under the influence of hard core extremist the valley might turn out to be hot bed of terrorism like Afganistan under an extremist rule like the Taliban.

It would be interesting to see what Pakistan be willing to give away for the freedom of Kashmir. Not only AJK but also Gilgit- Balistan and NA might be regarded as Kashmir (please correct me if am wrong). During the Khalisthan movement Pakistan withdrew its support when they thought that they would also end up loosing some land. What would happen in the case of Kashmir?


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## MYSTIC

third eye said:


> Could we discuss hell freezing over first before the subject in hand ?
> 
> That is likely to happen before.



If someone told you 70 years ago that the continent of Europe would be under one union you would have said the same thing. But look where we are today. No wonder they consider us sub-human. Clearly shows we are several decades behind them not only economically and ideologically as well.


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## third eye

MYSTIC said:


> If someone told you 70 years ago that the continent of Europe would be under one union you would have said the same thing. But look where we are today. No wonder they consider us sub-human. Clearly shows we are several decades behind them not only economically and ideologically as well.



Firstly, they are ' they' and we are ' us'. Pls try & understand that everything that happens in Europe & US does not have to apply to Asia & vice versa.Their way of doing things need not be the best & suited to Asia. China & India are fine examples of doing things their way at least as far as their fundamentals are concerned. With time we shall all see consolidation in this regard. 

Nations in Europe that have contentious border still have problems eg. Turkey & Greece over Cyprus and the situation there is quite like J&K with a UN force in between. Major issues still exist in the Balkans.

One template does not fit all.

I was surpirsed at the Q in a post above that why India needs J&K . Its like why India needs India ? The strategic advantages that come to India by its presence in the North need no elaboration.

Being a fellow country man stops me from saying any further. We could discuss this perhaps elsewhere.

Buffer zones do not work. Switzerland too has recently had problems with minarets for mosques.Religion in our part of the world leaves no place or person either neutral or a buffer.

If we were to suggest options on division of Pak the suggestions would be earth shattering. similarly,Mush went to suggest division of parts he never held nor would ever do. 

No, there is no option but for the LC to be an IB. This too is a major come down for India for the J&K Hari Singh acceded to India included Pak Occupied J&K .


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## dabong1

Mystic is a pakistani pretending to be indian.........


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## third eye

dabong1 said:


> Mystic is a pakistani pretending to be indian.........



Well, Aug 2006 and only 26 posts does leave you wondering.

Nationalities do not matter the thoughts do.


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## dabong1

MYSTIC said:


> What would be considered as Kashmir? Would Gilgit-Balistan also fall into Kashmir? What about Jammu and Leh? Northern Areas?



The map used by the UN when they passed the resolution should be used.



MYSTIC said:


> What about the Indus water treaty? How do you think the water would be divided among the three countries. I am pretty sure Kashmir would reserve a lot for themselves as they are already complaining about less water at the moment?



Stick to the treaty



MYSTIC said:


> Would Kashmir be declared a no military zone? One of India's main concern would be Kashmir cozying up to Pakistan Army as they have provided financial support to the separatist movement for so long. Kashmir has acted as a buffer for India for very long. If Pakistan would have any presence in Kashmir, it would not go well with India.



Make kashmir a non military zone.



MYSTIC said:


> Secular or theocratic? What about Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs? They were driven out by same separatist that would most likely rule Kashmir. How can they ensure safety of Hindus and Sikhs?



Let all the refugees return..muslim,sikh,hindu ect........the police can protect everyone.......the bogey of kashmir being turned into some iran with the mullah as leaders will never happen.
The political parties that use faith as a platform have always done really bad in pakistan and never really taken power unlike india where a hindu party has ruled.


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## Jade

MYSTIC said:


> What would be considered as Kashmir? Would Gilgit-Balistan also fall into Kashmir? What about Jammu and Leh? Northern Areas?
> 
> What about the Indus water treaty? How do you think the water would be divided among the three countries. I am pretty sure Kashmir would reserve a lot for themselves as they are already complaining about less water at the moment?
> 
> Would Kashmir be declared a no military zone? One of India's main concern would be Kashmir cozying up to Pakistan Army as they have provided financial support to the separatist movement for so long. Kashmir has acted as a buffer for India for very long. If Pakistan would have any presence in Kashmir, it would not go well with India.
> 
> Secular or theocratic? What about Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs? They were driven out by same separatist that would most likely rule Kashmir. How can they ensure safety of Hindus and Sikhs?




If Kashmir were to become a sovereign nation

1)Another partition and mass migration and with it lot of repercussion 
2)Another Islamic state bordering India
3)Communal Violence in India
4)India and Pakistan would continue to fight to exert influence over Kashmir. I would say the enmity would be more intense than it is now
5)India would have another Afghanistan next to its border, with the same repercussions that Pakistan is experiencing now at its western border.
6)Kashmir would become new battleground for world leading powers so as to exert their influence in the region and contain India and China
7)Kashmir would become another playground for Taliban or its clones
8)There will be huge unrest in states of India bordering Kashmir
9)Pakistan would loose its share of water as the Indus Treaty would become redundant and major parts of Pakistan would become barren. This may lead to lot of refugee influx into India and Iran, leading to total disaster for the whole region

The list can go on&#8230;

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## Illusive

It was a matter of winning hearts in that state, but such kind of statements must be avoided. He now has given more fodder to the separatists. But it never changes India's stand on Kashmir, he never was a good politician.


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## fast and furious

Areesh said:


> So much for the Kashmir is unbreakable or integral part of India rant. This is what we call a real snub.





So go and get Kashmir from Omar Abdullah if you can.

BTW Great move from Omar.


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## MYSTIC

dabong1 said:


> Mystic is a pakistani pretending to be indian.........



get my IP checked


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## JanjaWeed

this statement from omar was just to gain the sympathy from the troublemakers. he is feeling the heat because of the violence. it's a tactical move & it's working some what. beleive me.. this guy will always be sympathetic to new delhi. his whole political survival is based on that. so don't get excited by this statement. he knows what he is doing & so does new delhi.


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## dabong1

kingdurgaking said:


> You really dont have any knowledge of what is happening inside kashmir.. if you had atleast followed some news you would have not replied back this poorly...



So your from kashmir then are you?



kingdurgaking said:


> India never invaded kashmir.. India rescued kashmir from Pakistan clutches... If india want to invade it would have done immediately after independence it would not have waited until a unrest happened.. Pakistan wanted to take over kashmir immediately after independence its diplomacy failed miserably and it started to plunder the people created unrest.. so we have to send our people to save those innocents... So logically our GoI never ate any one lives...



What are you talking about?
Pakistan and india where made for reasons of faith.....pakistan taking the majority muslim areas and making pakistan while the hindus took the majority hindu areas and made india and going of that simple logic kashmir belongs to pakistan.



kingdurgaking said:


> Geelani is very much a kid ... it is you who dont understand what is a real development is... You are also thinking on his the lines of geelani which will put every one in dark land... come out of it sirjee.. go round the world and see and then go to AJK.. if you need to know what is development



I am from AJK and know fully well what development is taking place.....it seems its you that has no idea.
Heres a couple of pic to sure that we in AJK are living in mud huts.
Houses in AJK Photo Gallery by Gharib Hanif at pbase.com



kingdurgaking said:


> For your information .. there are no freedom fighters in JK.. those who are protesting are pawns of ISI or those people who got money from ISI/Army... We can see lot of people staying away from them and even showed your existence in some wars... what you have got to say for it??



Yeah of course every person that protest against indian brutality is an ISI agent


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## dabong1

kingdurgaking said:


> Pakistan freed kashmir?? where it is buddy??? i cant see any such country in the map.. is it something created today??.



Its called azad kashmir





kingdurgaking said:


> You know what image is there in outside world for P0K??? Terrorist breeding area.. do you feel happy about it.. do you hear the same in JK... you hear violence in JK because mosquito breded in P0K is creating problem here.. if "All-out/mortien" gives some quick solution then JK will be really a heaven on earth...



Fool yourself into believing the indian BS but is those "dirty mosquito"
you breed in india and then send to beautiful kashmir in uniforms that kill the people.


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## Jade

StreetHawk said:


> this statement from omar was just to gain the sympathy from the troublemakers. he is feeling the heat because of the violence. it's a tactical move & it's working some what. beleive me.. this guy will always be sympathetic to new delhi. his whole political survival is based on that. so don't get excited by this statement. he knows what he is doing & so does new delhi.



I feel more than to gain sympathy from troublemakers, Omar move is to checkmate Geelani & co at their own game...see...the results are obvious.


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## r3alist

aristocrat said:


> Ahhh hypocrites.if they evr wanted to go by consensus of the people in jammu and kashmir they would have abandoned their stance long a go.



how would you ever know, its india who has no interest in a plebiscite.


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## fast and furious

Areesh said:


> Their was a propaganda campaign that started after Kargil war, can't believe in such videos.




And what kinda proof will be acceptable to yo sir?

Seriously why is the onus to proof everything is on the person who debates with you ?
That is a video for god sake.
Just googled it and got 23000 results.Take your pick.

Google


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## JanjaWeed

jade1982 said:


> I feel more than to gain sympathy from troublemakers, Omar move is to checkmate Geelani & co at their own game...see...the results are obvious.



if that is part of the plan, even better.. & you can see people falling for it, including some on this very forum. guy was a puppet of new delhi only till last week & suddenly he is toast of the town.


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## dabong1

MYSTIC said:


> get my IP checked



I might be wrong about you being a pakistani but i find it harder to accept that your indian that is talking common sense when it comes to kashmir.


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## MYSTIC

jade1982 said:


> If Kashmir were to become a sovereign nation
> 
> 1)Another partition and mass migration and with it lot of repercussion
> 2)Another Islamic state bordering India
> 3)Communal Violence in India
> 4)India and Pakistan would continue to fight to exert influence over Kashmir. I would say the enmity would be more intense than it is now
> 5)India would have another Afghanistan next to its border, with the same repercussions that Pakistan is experiencing now at its western border.
> 6)Kashmir would become new battleground for world leading powers so as to exert their influence in the region and contain India and China
> 7)Kashmir would become another playground for Taliban or its clones
> 8)There will be huge unrest in states of India bordering Kashmir
> 9)Pakistan would loose its share of water as the Indus Treaty would become redundant and major parts of Pakistan would become barren. This may lead to lot of refugee influx into India and Iran, leading to total disaster for the whole region
> 
> The list can go on



There would hardly be any mass migration issues. Our constitution has prevented people outside Kashmir to reside in the state. And there are not many Kashmiris living outside Kashmir, at least in Mumbai there are not many. Probably in Delhi the number might be larger (lot of Kashmiri Pandits migrated). 

Why do you think there would be communal violence. Have you just presumed that we are barbaric? Don't you think we have grown over the past few decades. Why can the partition be peaceful? 

Some good points but largely on assumption that it would turn out to be a radical islamic state. What if it adopts a secular democracy like India? They will be looking toward the west (US) to set up the country, which would require them to behave themselves. Unless the west has other plans for them (which is unlikely), it would turn out to be alright.

About the three powers exerting pressure on Kashmir, I already suggested Kashmir being a neutral non-military zone. If Europe can have Switzerland, why can't we have Kashmir . 

The Indus river will still be flowing. If you stop the water, the entire valley will be submerged.


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## MYSTIC

dabong1 said:


> I might be wrong about you being a pakistani but i find it harder to accept that your indian that is talking common sense when it comes to kashmir.



3 years and I have read enough BS from both sides.

Just kidding. But as you said its just common sense.

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## Illusive

Pakistan should rather think of saving Baluchistan from Taliban rather than saving Kashmir. It might end up loosing both. Pakistan is just stretching the rubber.


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## Jade

r3alist said:


> how would you ever know, its india who has no interest in a plebiscite.



No need for plebiscite...the J&K elections have proved where the Kashmiries loyalties lie


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## r3alist

i think its personally very introspective for indians to start thinking along these lines.

at the end of the day you guys are all aware of the ground situation, i mean the innate reality of the situation will "out" it self at some point into the mass indian conscience

you guys are all aware of the lessons of imperialism - well its india who have become the neo-imperialists so have a good think about these misadventures turn out.

violence begets violence, hatred begets hatred and the passion for freedom is still as strong as ever amongst the people of IOK.

would it not be wise to think more pragmatically?


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## MYSTIC

dabong1 said:


> Let all the refugees return..muslim,sikh,hindu ect........the police can protect everyone.......the bogey of kashmir being turned into some iran with the mullah as leaders will never happen.
> The political parties that use faith as a platform have always done really bad in pakistan and never really taken power unlike india where a hindu party has ruled.



Pakistan's founding father was Jinaah. Kashmir would have Hafiz Sayeed. The orchestrator of the Mumbai attack, and many others. Obviously not a secularist nor a peaceful being. 

How is it going to work? India would never support a government run by the very same separatist we have been fighting for around 2 decades.


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## MYSTIC

r3alist said:


> i think its personally very introspective for indians to start thinking along these lines.
> 
> at the end of the day you guys are all aware of the ground situation, i mean the innate reality of the situation will "out" it self at some point into the mass indian conscience
> 
> you guys are all aware of the lessons of imperialism - well its india who have become the neo-imperialists so have a good think about these misadventures turn out.
> 
> violence begets violence, hatred begets hatred and the passion for freedom is still as strong as ever amongst the people of IOK.
> 
> would it not be wise to think more pragmatically?



Dear friend, how about a little introspection yourself. No country is clean. Even you have a lot of skeletons in your closet. Why would Balouchistan be any different? Didn't Pakistan promise them freedom. Why does you heart only go out for Kashmir and not for Balouch? Oh wait...because its an integral part of Pakistan...


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## zeeshe100

MYSTIC said:


> What would be considered as Kashmir? Would Gilgit-Balistan also fall into Kashmir? What about Jammu and Leh? Northern Areas?
> 
> What about the Indus water treaty? How do you think the water would be divided among the three countries. I am pretty sure Kashmir would reserve a lot for themselves as they are already complaining about less water at the moment?
> 
> Would Kashmir be declared a no military zone? One of India's main concern would be Kashmir cozying up to Pakistan Army as they have provided financial support to the separatist movement for so long. Kashmir has acted as a buffer for India for very long. If Pakistan would have any presence in Kashmir, it would not go well with India.
> 
> Secular or theocratic? What about Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs? They were driven out by same separatist that would most likely rule Kashmir. How can they ensure safety of Hindus and Sikhs?



agar kashmir ko azadi dee jai or us main Gilgit-Balistan + Northern Areas bhe add hoon tuh pakistan ko yah kabhi manzor nahe hoo gaa ... meri nazar main us kashmir say acha aaj ka kashmir hee hai keu k agar kashmir pakistan ko nahe milta or usay ek alaag country banaya jai tuh wo pakistan k leia acha nahe ... agar kashmir azaad hota hai or Northern Areas us azaad honay walay kashmir main add hon tuh pakistan or china ka link khatam hoo jai gaa joo Pakistan ko kabhi manzor nahe ... or meri nazar main india or pakistan ko kashmir say kuth nahe bus "water" chaiya ..

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## r3alist

MYSTIC said:


> Dear friend, how about a little introspection yourself. No country is clean. Even you have a lot of skeletons in your closet. Why would Balouchistan be any different? Didn't Pakistan promise them freedom. Why does you heart only go out for Kashmir and not for Balouch? Oh wait...because its an integral part of Pakistan...



1. kashmir is apparently important because indians claim it to be integral, for many many pakistanis it IS integral because there are blood ties!!!

therefore kashmir is about your imperial ambitions and how best india can manage it - not about the thoughts and feelings of the kashmiri people - our affection and care is not superficial

kashmir is not a skeleton - its alive and kicking and in india's face.

indians need to INTROSPECT AND WAKE UP - violence begets violence, hatred begets violence, kashmir is boiling and you know it....


2. the baluchistan situations is simply not comparable - when has it ever been disputed territory - its more analogous to your naxalite problem, but on a much smaller scale


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## Nagraj

Didn't you guys forgot china????
how much part of kashmir does china want???


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## karan.1970

And I will get screamed at because of this, but all the talk about introspection and not being sub human should not be subject to a UN resolution which anyway does not allow for independence. Now if you do this with Kashmir (and I mean the whole of it), what next.

I think all of us know that there are other restive areas as well in the subcontinent. If you know what I mean

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## KS

I hope you ppl who are chuckling at Omar's words had seen this video which starts with the words *"I am a Muslim and I am an Indian* --------"

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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> The killing of Kashmiri kids by the Bharati govt employed terrorist forces for throwing stones. That is the change.



Off topic and not linked to the issue being discussed.. But I am not surprised..


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Why should I? The past three months are enough to predict the future of IOK.



And last 60 years are not??

Also didnt some Pakistani members comment that 3-4 *years* is a very short time to judge if Pakistani economy is really in a non recoverable nose dive. But suddenly now 3 months are enough..

What was that saying about Billi and cheechda or some thing??


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## Jade

MYSTIC said:


> There would hardly be any mass migration issues. Our constitution has prevented people outside Kashmir to reside in the state. And there are not many Kashmiris living outside Kashmir, at least in Mumbai there are not many. Probably in Delhi the number might be larger (lot of Kashmiri Pandits migrated).



Because 50% of the population (Non Muslims) may not want to reside in the state 



> Why do you think there would be communal violence. Have you just presumed that we are barbaric? Don't you think we have grown over the past few decades. Why can the partition be peaceful?



Have you forgotten what has happened after Babri Mosque and Godhra. Please give me one example where partition happened peaceful 



> Some good points but largely on assumption that it would turn out to be a radical islamic state. What if it adopts a secular democracy like India? They will be looking toward the west (US) to set up the country, which would require them to behave themselves. Unless the west has other plans for them (which is unlikely), it would turn out to be alright.



Aren't you also assuming. Anyway the recent riots in J&K had clear religious hues. The Separatist movement in the Valley is solely based on religious affinities 



> About the three powers exerting pressure on Kashmir, I already suggested Kashmir being a neutral non-military zone. If Europe can have Switzerland, why can't we have Kashmir .



Kashmir being non-military zone would not stop other countries from exerting power; moreover how would anybody stop non state actors from using military methods (example Taliban) thus making Kashmir a military zone



> The Indus river will still be flowing. If you stop the water, the entire valley will be submerged.



Water is scare. First everyone would use water for their own development then would leave the remaining for others. That was the reason why treaties such as Indus water threat have been agreed upon to protect countries who are at disadvantage


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> And last 60 years are not??



Thanks to you and other Indians that have admitted that their was bloodshed and genocide by India in IOK for past sixty years and it was not 1987 revolt after which things gone worst. Thanks for this admission Karan and other Indians. It was really unexpected. I was talking about the killings of youth in past three months but you admitted that you are killing Kashmiris for the past sixty years. Thanks again. 



> Also didnt some Pakistani members comment that 3-4 years is a very short time to judge if Pakistani economy is really in a non recoverable nose dive. But suddenly now 3 months are enough..



Irrelevant I guess.



> What was that saying about Billi and cheechda or some thing??



Want to learn Urdu. Take admission in some urdu academy in New Dehli. They will teach you what it is. 

We aren't having urdu learning classes here. Sorry buddy but can't help you on this right now... 



> Off topic and not linked to the issue being discussed.. But I am not surprised..



It is on topic dear. The one and the major reason that Omar said something near to truth for the first time in his whole life.


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## zeeshe100

Accession with Pakistan Geelanis 1st choice
is main ISI ka hath hai


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## Jade

r3alist said:


> 1. kashmir is apparently important because indians claim it to be integral, for many many pakistanis it IS integral because there are blood ties!!!
> 
> therefore kashmir is about your imperial ambitions and how best india can manage it - not about the thoughts and feelings of the kashmiri people - our affection and care is not superficial
> 
> kashmir is not a skeleton - its alive and kicking and in india's face.
> 
> indians need to INTROSPECT AND WAKE UP - violence begets violence, hatred begets violence, kashmir is boiling and you know it....



Now how come Pakistanis have blood ties with Kashmiries?...as far as I know, there are not many marriages happening Pakistanis and Kashmiries 

Is not it that Pakistanis INTROSPECT AND WAKE UP - violence begets violence, hatred begets violence and you know it....


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## Jackdaws

If Kashmir were a sovereign state then it would ideally include all 3 parts of Kashmir - Indian, Pakistani and Chinese. Given that it would be "sovereign" as you put it - then as a sovereign state, it would be free to decide its own course. If it decides to alienate its own Buddhist and Hindu citizenry by becoming a theocratic nation state, there is nothing anyone can do.


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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> I hope you ppl who are chuckling at Omar's words had seen this video which starts with the words *"I am a Muslim and I am an Indian* --------"
> ]



It should be I am a Muslim and I am an Indian govt puppet or servant. But since according to you guys it is politics he didn't said it clearly. Politics you know.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*India kills more Kashmiris in Occupied Jammu & Kashmir ​* 
TopNews 
Written by KMS 
Sunday, 10 October 2010 00:53 







Srinagar, October 10, 2010: Indian troops in their fresh act of state terrorism martyred one more innocent Kashmiri youth in Kangan area of Ganderbal. Complete shutdown was observed all across the Valley, today, to protest against the killing of innocent people by Indian forces. Call for the shutdown was given by the chairman of APHC, Syed Ali Shah Geelani as part of "Quit Kashmir Movement".

The authorities had put stringent restrictions in place to prevent people from holding anti-India demonstrations. Despite restrictions, people took to the streets in Sopore and Chadoora areas and staged pro-freedom protests. Indian forces resorted to heavy baton charge and excessive teargas shelling to disperse the protesters resulting in injuries to several persons. Curfew continued in Palhalan and Delina areas of Baramulla districts of Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK).

The APHC Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani in their separate statements in Srinagar, welcoming the concern expressed by the United Nations Secretary General, Ban Ki-Moon on the loss of life in OSJK, urged him to play proactive role in resolving the Kashmir dispute in accordance with the relevant Security Council resolutions.

The Awami Action Committee headed by Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has announced to observe Prisoners Day tomorrow to express solidarity with the illegally detained Kashmiris. In Islamabad, the Convener of APHC-AJK Chapter, Mehmood Ahmad Saghar, in a statement denounced the restrictions on the APHC Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Agha Syed Hassan Al-Moosvi and continued illegal detention of Shabbir Ahmad Shah whose mother has been admitted to hospital in critical condition.


The condition of ailing mother of illegally detained senior APHC leader, Shabbir Ahmad Shah is serious at the Soura Institute of Medical Sciences. Shahs mother had suffered heart attack at the detained leaders Rawalpora residence, last week. She was first admitted in the general Hospital but was later shifted to the Soura Institute of Medical Sciences.

Pro-freedom leaders have expressed serious concern over the deteriorating health of Shabbir Shahs mother and prayed for her early recovery. Shabbir Shah is detained under draconian law, Public Safety Act (PSA) and is presently lodged in Kot Bhalwal jail Jammu.

Masarrat Aalam Butt, the Acting General Secretary of APHC has appealed to the people to march towards Hyderpora in Srinagar on Tuesday (October 12), to remove the forcible restrictions imposed by the occupation authorities on "Quite Kashmir Movement" by Syed Ali Shah Geelani.

Masarrat Aalam Butt, in a statement issued in Srinagar said, It has become a routine for police to conduct crackdowns, carry out nocturnal raids and arrests. They have placed Syed Ali Gilani under house arrest since Eid and nobody is allowed to come out or go inside his house. They have literary made his house a jail. We need to rise to the occasion and resist these atrocities and scuttle the nefarious designs.

He said that the people from across the Valley should, without caring for impediments and barricades, make it to Hyderpora peacefully. He urged the Muslims leaving for Hajj pilgrimage to organize special prayers for their nation and act as ambassadors to apprise the Ummah about the prevailing situation in the occupied territory.


He deplored that over 12 persons were being arrested everyday while detainees were not being released despite court orders. If anyone is released, he is soon re-arrested. Mian Abdul Qayoom, Ghulam Nabi Shaheen, Muhammad Maqbool Butt and Mir Hafizullah were re-arrested soon after their release, he added. 

The Acting Chairman of Jammu and Kashmir Salvation Movement, Tufail Altaf Butt has said that resolution of the Kashmir dispute is possible by implementing the relevant UN resolutions. Tufail Altaf Butt in a statement in Islamabad said that the UN had repeatedly said that elections would have no impact on the status of Jammu and Kashmir. The only election acceptable to the people of Jammu and Kashmir is one which will be conducted and supervised by an impartial agency like the United Nations and which will take place in an atmosphere free of coercion and intimidation, he added.

The JKSM Acting Chairman hailed the determination of Kashmiri people for the liberation struggle. He urged India to adopt a realistic approach, accept the disputed status of Jammu and Kashmir and take steps for its settlement in accordance with the Kashmiris aspirations.

He termed as truth the recent assertion of the Umar Abdullah that Jammu and Kashmir was an outstanding issue between India and Pakistan and had an international recognition. Tufail Butt also demanded immediate release of all illegally detained Hurriyet leaders and activists including Shabbir Ahmad Shah, Mian Abdul Qayoom, Nayeem Ahmad Khan, Aasiya Andrabi, Mohammad Ashraf Sehrai, Zaffar Akbar Butt, Ghulam Nabi Sumjhi, Ghulam Nabi Shaheen and Firdous Ahmad Shah.


The Convenor of All Parties Hurriyat Conference Azad Jammu and Kashmir (APHC-AJK) chapter, Mahmood Ahmad Saghar, has flayed the authorities in OSJK for continuously placing APHC Chairman, Syed Ali Gilani, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Agha Syed Hassan Al-Moosvi under house arrest and putting other Hurriyat leaders behind the bars.

Mahmood Ahmad Saghar in a statement issued in Islamabad said that the unlawful detentions of Hurriyet leaders, curfew and restrictions by the authorities could not deter Kashmiris resolve to get freedom from Indian occupation. He expressed concern over the continued illegal detention of pro-freedom leaders and activists including Shabbir Ahmad Shah, Mian Abdul Qayoom, Nayeem Ahmad Khan, Aasiya Andrabi, Muhammad Ashraf Sehrai, Zaffar Akbar Butt, and Ghulam Nabi Shaheen and demanded their immediate release.

The APHC-AJK Convenor appealed to the UN Secretary General, Ban Ki-Moon, European Union, America and Britain to take cognisance of the gross human rights violations by Indian troops in Occupied State of Jammu and Kashmir and send their representatives to take stock of the ground situation in the territory.

India kills more Kashmiris in Occupied Jammu & Kashmir


----------



## BATMAN

anti Muslim UN turning blind eye... Bin Gay moron is showing his character.


----------



## Big Bang

BATMAN said:


> anti Muslim UN turning blind eye... Bin Gay moron is showing his character.



Anti Muslim??? Who is the current Vice president of India??? Who was the Previous President of India.... United nation does understand the Very Cause and is As Internal as it is to India alone....


----------



## BATMAN

^^Your justifications are in-acceptable.
You have apprehended hundreds of Kashmiri children just before the holiest day of Islamic calendar and their families were torched alive.
You have killed women and children in the holy month of Ramadan.
Monkey Moron should resign, if he is not party to the deaths of children.


----------



## Big Bang

Well I am Only Against those who have been a Reason to these Genocide , Pakistani Trained Kashmir Militants aka Freedom Fighters, are Behind all these as per Musharraf Your Ex President .... Pakistan training Militants to kill Kashmiris and When they are Dead,Pakistan Shedding Crocodile tears, You Think United Nation is filled with fools To believe such Conspiracy's created By Pakistan??


----------



## toppys

since india is killing more who is killing less kashmiris...


----------



## BATMAN

Big Bang said:


> Well I am Only Against those who have been a Reason to these Genocide , Pakistani Trained Kashmir Militants aka Freedom Fighters, are Behind all these as per Musharraf Your Ex President .... Pakistan training Militants to kill Kashmiris and When they are Dead,Pakistan Shedding Crocodile tears, You Think United Nation is filled with fools To believe such Conspiracy's created By Pakistan??



He has also said India is sending terrorists in Pakistan and all the recent killings of last three years is work of RAW.
Do you believe that part too?


----------



## Big Bang

BATMAN said:


> He has also said India is sending terrorists in Pakistan and all the recent killings of last three years is work of RAW.
> Do you believe that part too?



He is expected to Prove when Pointing His Fingers on some one Else, But for the Country he ruled Its More like confession which he did there


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## BATMAN

toppys said:


> since india is killing more who is killing less kashmiris...



That's the point and this is why i blame Monki Moron.


----------



## BATMAN

Big Bang said:


> He is expected to Prove when Pointing His Fingers on some one Else, But for the Country he ruled Its More like confession which he did there



He made no such confession and his rule was only 7years long, while Genocide history of Indian Muslims is much older.

Don't forget, most of the dead were unarmed women and children shoot cold blood at point blank by indian army.


----------



## Big Bang

BATMAN said:


> He made no such confession and his rule was only 7years long, while Genocide history of Indian Muslims is much older.



nop not at all, It all Began In 1988 when Cross Border terrorism Started and India had to station Army In Kashmir.... And Musharraf was Indeed Right in His Confession


----------



## Big Bang

BATMAN said:


> Don't forget, most of the dead were unarmed women and children shoot cold blood at point blank by indian army.



And I regret that they had to give up there Life For No fault of theres But they were tricked to death by the Militants


----------



## BATMAN

Big Bang said:


> And I regret that they had to give up there Life For No fault of theres But they were tricked to death by the Militants



How about the whole lot of Kashmiri leadership? are those also tricked by bunch of militants?
What do you say bout the SOP of your army while they are dealing with those unarmed civilians and particularly children..... so called tricked in 1988.


----------



## Big Bang

BATMAN said:


> How about the whole lot of Kashmiri leadership? are those also tricked by bunch of militants?
> What do you say bout the SOP of your army while they are dealing with those unarmed civilians and particularly children..... so called tricked in 1988.



Well Thats Probably where The Word "MUTINY" Comes In Handy, The work Of Militants


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## Jackdaws

Omar is right. The accession was under certain provisions.


----------



## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Thanks to you and other Indians that have admitted that their was bloodshed and genocide by India in IOK for past sixty years and it was not 1987 revolt after which things gone worst. Thanks for this admission Karan and other Indians. It was really unexpected. I was talking about the killings of youth in past three months but you admitted that you are killing Kashmiris for the past sixty years. Thanks again.


1. You do need to brush up on you language comprehension I guess. Or you pretend to be weak there intentionally. What ever..



Areesh said:


> Irrelevant I guess.


2. Wrong guess




Areesh said:


> Want to learn Urdu. Take admission in some urdu academy in New Dehli. They will teach you what it is.
> 
> We aren't having urdu learning classes here. Sorry buddy but can't help you on this right now...


Go to Point 1




Areesh said:


> It is on topic dear. The one and the major reason that Omar said something near to truth for the first time in his whole life.



Whatever floats your boat dear. Let me know when the Pakistani dream of capturing Kashmir becomes plausible. And as some one said, till then, lets discuss hell freezing over since that will happen sooner..


----------



## arihant

He is correct, It was not merger, it was accession. To my view merger was with Bengal, Mumbai Presidency, Rajputana. Other states were still princely state who accede to India.


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## MYSTIC

jade1982 said:


> Because 50% of the population (Non Muslims) may not want to reside in the state
> 
> 
> 
> Have you forgotten what has happened after Babri Mosque and Godhra. Please give me one example where partition happened peaceful
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't you also assuming. Anyway the recent riots in J&K had clear religious hues. The Separatist movement in the Valley is solely based on religious affinities
> 
> 
> 
> Kashmir being non-military zone would not stop other countries from exerting power; moreover how would anybody stop non state actors from using military methods (example Taliban) thus making Kashmir a military zone
> 
> 
> 
> Water is scare. First everyone would use water for their own development then would leave the remaining for others. That was the reason why treaties such as Indus water threat have been agreed upon to protect countries who are at disadvantage



Firstly let us not bring Taliban into the picture when we talk of Kashmir. Kashmiri separatist and Taliban have nothing in common between them. Neither are Kashmiris Taliban sympathizers.

Secondly what if Kashmiris elect a secular a government instead of a theocratic one. Would there still be communal violence? During the partition of 1947, it was the Punjab region that saw most violence. Migration from Sindh region was rather peaceful. I think post-godhra people of India have become a lot more mature and deny political parties to spew religious hatred amongst the people.


----------



## KS

Areesh said:


> It should be I am a Muslim and I am an Indian govt puppet or servant. But since according to you guys it is politics he didn't said it clearly. Politics you know.



It shoud have been..but it was not.

Live with it.


----------



## MYSTIC

zeeshe100 said:


> agar kashmir ko azadi dee jai or us main Gilgit-Balistan + Northern Areas bhe add hoon tuh pakistan ko yah kabhi manzor nahe hoo gaa ... meri nazar main us kashmir say acha aaj ka kashmir hee hai keu k agar kashmir pakistan ko nahe milta or usay ek alaag country banaya jai tuh wo pakistan k leia acha nahe ... agar kashmir azaad hota hai or Northern Areas us azaad honay walay kashmir main add hon tuh pakistan or china ka link khatam hoo jai gaa joo Pakistan ko kabhi manzor nahe ... or meri nazar main india or pakistan ko kashmir say kuth nahe bus "water" chaiya ..



What if each regions was to hold a plebiscite and asked to choose one the three options: 1) Join India, 2) Join Pakistan, 3) Independence.

What would the result be from these following region
a) IOK (valley)
b) *** (AJK)
c) Gilgit-Balistan
d) Jammu
e) Leh
f) Northern Areas

Who would end up loosing more land? India would only loose the valley while Pakistan would loose ***, Gilgit-Balistan and Northern Areas.


----------



## dabong1

Illusive said:


> Pakistan should rather think of saving Baluchistan from Taliban rather than saving Kashmir. It might end up loosing both. Pakistan is just stretching the rubber.



And maybe you indians should be thinking about Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram, Nagaland, Tripura ect before you start worring about kashmir.....you might lose all the above states in the process.


----------



## dabong1

jade1982 said:


> No need for plebiscite...the J&K elections have proved where the Kashmiries loyalties lie



Where the elections held under the UN?


----------



## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> It shoud have been..but it was not.
> 
> Live with it.



It is politics dear. As you guys said. 



karan.1970 said:


> 1. You do need to brush up on you language comprehension I guess. Or you pretend to be weak there intentionally. What ever..



Sometimes lame arguments out of emotions backfire. Try to adjust with it.



> 2. Wrong guess



If killing of 100+ youth is off topic than it is also irrelevant. 



> Go to Point 1



Already done... 



> Whatever floats your boat dear. Let me know when the Pakistani dream of capturing Kashmir becomes plausible. And as some one said, till then, lets discuss hell freezing over since that will happen sooner..



OK. Deal. Good to see traditional unbreakable part rant fizzling out.


----------



## Omar1984

*Journalism threatened in Kashmir protests*


Since July 2010, more than 100 people have died in clashes between security forces and anti-government demonstraters in Indian-administered Kashmir, and sometimes it is the journalists trying to cover the demonstrations that have become the targets themselves.






An indefinite curfew has been in place in Srinagar since September 


When I met Farooq Shah he was lying under a blanket in the corner of his living room in obvious discomfort. 

Friends and neighbours were sitting on cushions scattered across the floor. Someone was serving tea and biscuits. 

Farooq had a broken arm and stitches on his head. 

The previous evening, when he heard that the curfew had been relaxed, he had made the mistake of wandering down to the main road at the end of his lane. 

*The police were beating passers-by with long wooden sticks, he recalled. 

He told them he was a journalist - a photographer with a local newspaper, Rising Kashmir. So they beat him, too.* 

It has been a long, hard summer for journalists who ply their trade amid the beguiling beauty of the Kashmir Valley. 

They have had to cover the deaths of civilians from their own communities, while dodging bullets, rocks and tear gas shells. 

Blows 'raining down'

*Months of street clashes have seen more than 100 young men lose their lives - nearly all of them shot dead by the police.* 





Resentment has been growing against Indian rule 


And for some time now, the police have been turning on the people who are telling this story to the world. 

Curfew passes have been ignored or torn up. 

*Journalists have been threatened and intimidated. And the national press in India has not paid a great deal of attention.* 

*The BBC has not been immune. Our Urdu service reporter, Riyaaz Masroor, was beaten earlier this year, a hairline fracture on his arm courtesy of a police baton.* 

And last week - the latest victim: Merajuddin, a veteran TV cameraman working for the Associated Press, was trying to reach the state assembly with his son Omar, another cameraman.



TV news channels have been taken off air, and newspapers have been prevented from publishing or distributing for weeks at a time 



*The police ignored their passes and when they protested the blows came raining down. Merajuddin took one on the side of the neck which left him lying in a heap on the road.* 

Colleagues helped him away before further damage could be done. 

Kashmir's chief minister, Omar Abdullah, rang him to apologise. In fact he said sorry three times, which is all well and good. 

But there seem to be plenty of people in the valley who do not want the local media to get their stories out. 

TV news channels have been taken off air, and newspapers have been prevented from publishing or distributing for weeks at a time. 

Vendors have been threatened, and copies seized from street corners. The chief minister says it is nothing to do with him. Which begs the question - who is running the show? 

"I've covered Kashmir for more than 20 years," said a leading local journalist Shujaat Bukhari, "and I've never seen such restrictions." 

"For us, the last three months has been the worst period ever." 

Overbearing security

Efforts to suppress the news have not really worked. Newspapers have been out every day online, and social networking sites have been alive with angry debate. 





It is hoped that reducing the overt security presence will calm tensions 


Still the campaign against the news providers seems to be continuing. 

And that is sad, because there have been positive developments in Kashmir recently. 

An all-party delegation from Delhi visited Srinagar to listen to local complaints and suggestions. 

As a result, people detained for throwing stones have been released from custody. 

And now a number of police posts and bunkers in the centre of the city have been dismantled and removed. Confidence building measures they say. 

It has been pretty obvious for some time that the overbearing security presence in Srinagar had become counter-productive. 

The militant insurgency of the early 1990s has long gone, but at times it seems as if the authorities have not got the message. 

Armed police stand guard at every street corner - enforcing curfew, searching bags, and acting as a visible reminder for the weary local population - Life here is not normal. 

I spent an hour or so at one police post in the old town a few weeks ago, sandbags and barbed wire surrounding a pretty ramshackle hut. 

Stones thrown by teenage protesters were rattling off tin rooftops and bouncing into the shuttered shop-fronts of an empty street. Not desperately threatening, but a constant irritation. 

"It's their game," sighed the policeman on duty, staring down a rubble-strewn back-lane at the silhouettes of the stone-pelters. 

"It's like this every day." 

"So what would happen if you weren't here?" I asked. 

"They'd probably be playing cricket instead," he replied. "Problem solved." 

If only Kashmir as a whole were that simple. 

It is not, and it has been a tough time for everyone in the valley over the last few months. 

But blaming the local media is not part of the solution. 

*Do not shoot the messenger. And do not beat him up either.* 


BBC News - Journalism threatened in Kashmir protests


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## Omar1984

*Most deaths in Valley by bullet injuries, says Omar*


Most of the civilian deaths during the recent protests in the Valley were caused by bullet injuries, Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah said today. 

Of the 98 civilians killed from June 11 to September 21 this year, 82 died due to bullet injuries received during the protests, Mr. Omar said in a written reply to a question of Murtaza Ahmad Khan in the Legislative Council. 

&#8220;Since the beginnig of June 2010, till September 21, 87 civilians were killed who were part of the violent mobs and protests during the engagements between protesters and the deployment on the ground and succumbed to their injuries,&#8221; the Chief Minister, who also holds the Home portfolio, said. 

Two others, including a teenage student Tufail Ahmad Mattoo - whose death on June 11 triggered a series of protests, were killed after getting hit by tear smoke shells. 

As per data, 11-year-old Irshad Ahmad Parray died after suffering injuries caused by pellets fired from Pum Action Gun (PAG). 

One person, Rafiq Ahmad Bangroo, died due to serious injuries suffered after he was allegedly beaten by the CRPF personnel, the government records show. 

Two other deaths, including that of a 24-year-old woman, government said were caused by &#8216;stray&#8217; bullets. 

The government said most of those killed in the protests were young boys, either teenagers or in their twenties. 

The oldest man killed during the protests was Ali Mohammad Khanday of Pattan in north Kashmir&#8217;s Baramulla district. He was 60. 

According to government figures, two persons were killed in the attacks by stone pelters while three youth drowned after being chased by security forces and two persons were killed in stampedes. 

Most of those killed were students (39) followed by labourers (12) and farmers (nine). Rest of the deceased were businessmen, skilled workers, employees in public and private sector and salespersons. 

Kashmir valley has been in a grip of protests since June 11 following the killing of Mattoo, who succumbed to injuries after being hit in the head by a tear smoke cannister fired by a policeman near Rajouri Kadal in interior city.


The Hindu : States / Other States : Most deaths in Valley by bullet injuries, says Omar


----------



## Omar1984

*Govt to continue moral, diplomatic support to Kashmir cause: Gilani*


* PM urges international community to take note of human right violations in IHK

Staff Report

ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani and Parliamentary Committee on Kashmir Chairman Maulana Fazlur Rehman on Saturday discussed in detail the Kashmir issue and the PM reiterated the governments resolve to continue to extend moral, diplomatic and political support to the people of Kashmir, in their struggle for self-determination. 

*Speaking during the meeting held at the PMs House, Gilani urged the international community to take notice of the gross human rights violations in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) and to pressurise the Indian government to put an end to the repression of the Kashmiri people.* 

Durable peace and stability in South Asia is linked to a peaceful resolution of the Kashmir dispute, in line with the UNs resolutions and aspirations of the Kashmiri people, he added.

Fazlur Rehman apprised the prime minister on the committees meeting with leadership of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference. He said that during the meeting, the delegation had thrown light on the indigenous and people-led character of the recent uprising in IHK against atrocities of the Indian security forces. He added that the Parliamentary Committee on Kashmir had assured the Hurriyat delegation of Pakistans complete support and solidarity with the Kashmiri people in their just cause.


Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Jade

MYSTIC said:


> Firstly let us not bring Taliban into the picture when we talk of Kashmir. Kashmiri separatist and Taliban have nothing in common between them. Neither are Kashmiris Taliban sympathizers.



Neither are most Afghans or most Pakistanis sympathizers of Taliban. 



> Secondly what if Kashmiris elect a secular a government instead of a theocratic one. Would there still be communal violence? During the partition of 1947, it was the Punjab region that saw most violence. Migration from Sindh region was rather peaceful. I think post-godhra people of India have become a lot more mature and deny political parties to spew religious hatred amongst the people.



Neither was Pakistan a Islamic state when formed


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## Nishan

How large is the similarities between the suffering of Kashmiris and the suffering of the Palestinians . . .Even their enemies . . .Using the same weapons


----------



## BS_Buster

alphaforce said:


> YouTube - Kashmir (The road to Ghazwah e Hind)


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## Spring Onion

Nishan said:


> How large is the similarities between the suffering of Kashmiris and the suffering of the Palestinians . . .Even their enemies . . .Using the same weapons



Both are same. The Israeli and Indian State Terrorism in these Countries that is Kashmir and Palestine is the same.


The two terrorist states i.e Israel and India are indeed collaborating in terms of weapons and terror tactics used on people of Kashmir and Palestine.

Check the record you will see same amount of killings of the innocent by these terrorist states


----------



## INDIAN007

alphaforce said:


> YouTube - Kashmir (The road to Ghazwah e Hind)



Oh **** this man again.........his theories

Reactions: Like Like:
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## INDIAN007

Jana said:


> Both are same. The Israeli and Indian State Terrorism in these Countries that is Kashmir and Palestine is the same.
> 
> 
> The two terrorist states i.e Israel and India are indeed collaborating in terms of weapons and terror tactics used on people of Kashmir and Palestine.
> 
> Check the record you will see same amount of killings of the innocent by these terrorist states



hOW dare u calling INDIA a terrorist state...........where is the administrator.......b4 talking abt others country talk abt urs country first


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## Huda

INDIAN007 said:


> *hOW dare u calling INDIA a terrorist state*...........


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## Jade

dabong1 said:


> Where the elections held under the UN?



Are you serious.UN is just a joke and waste on tax payers money. It could not even stop Myanmar Junta from persecuting Aung San Suu Kyi. It could not even stop North Korea from exploding the bomb. It could not even stop Israel from attacking Flotilla.and you expect...tell me one country that respects UN and you will find none. It has just become a podium for diatribes. 

Off late it has even lost its legitimacy by allowing itself to be used by powerful countries for furthering their interests. It gave legitimacy to illegal war of America on Iraq and to unnecessary sanctions against Iran. It gave legitimacy to powerful countries remain powerful. 

As your avatar says UN is truly Unable and it powerless to oversee anything


----------



## Nishan

Jana said:


> Both are same. The Israeli and Indian State Terrorism in these Countries that is Kashmir and Palestine is the same.
> 
> 
> The two terrorist states i.e Israel and India are indeed collaborating in terms of weapons and terror tactics used on people of Kashmir and Palestine.
> 
> Check the record you will see same amount of killings of the innocent by these terrorist states



Dear Jana There is a saying (Birds of a feather flock together) In the past, Israel is cooperating with the apartheid regime in South Africa It is unfortunate that Indians accept at themselfs to Be placed in the same basket With the racist regime like Israel


----------



## justanobserver

> Dear Jana There is a saying (Birds of a feather flock together) In the past, Israel is cooperating with the apartheid regime in South Africa It is unfortunate that Indians accept at themselfs to Be placed in the same basket With the racist regime like Israel



Oh just stop it.

We're not emotional like you guys, with all the 'evil Jews' and 'Israel should be annihilated' BS

We don't hate Palestinians, but nor do we engage in fruitless Israel bashing. 

And tell me which major country does *not* have a military relationship with Israel?

USA ? (no need to explain)
China? (Israel is their 2nd largest contributor to arms)
Turkey? (In spite of the political facade, Israel remains an important partner for their military)
No need to mention the rest of the 'Evil West'

No matter how much you whine, Israel is here to stay and the Arab countries don't have the balls to do anything


----------



## toppys

Nishan said:


> Dear Jana There is a saying (Birds of a feather flock together) In the past, Israel is cooperating with the apartheid regime in South Africa It is unfortunate that Indians accept at themselfs to Be placed in the same basket With the racist regime like Israel



Israel and India are the buffer states for the world against islamic terrorism. Good World always needs some bad guys to do the bad job against bad people.... 
The world very well knows who is the terrorist state of the world. It is our combined job to deal with that.


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## justanobserver

> and India are the buffer states for the world against islamic terrorism



Dude wtf are you smoking?
Dunno about Israel, but we're definitely not a 'buffer state against islamic terrorism'


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## BATMAN

Using Israeli weapons to kill Muslims is symbolic and could have diplomatic advantages as well.
They may have serial numbers with magical numbers... same as US troops use.


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## JanjaWeed

troops of all countries carry wepons. what defference does it make wether sticker says 'made in israel' or 'made in china?'. man.. it's so naive to make meal out of this.


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## BATMAN

alphaforce said:


> YouTube - Kashmir (The road to Ghazwah e Hind)



Bhutto speech made the audience speechless.
Zardari killed his daughter within months of his own discharge from jail.


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## justanobserver

> Good World always needs some bad guys to do the bad job against bad people....



Lets not associate ourselves with Israel...If we're a soft state so be it. Israel is not an innocent child, they can be very ruthless at times

We don't send helicopters and tanks in Kashmir to quell protests ok? We don't make forced settlements there and we surely didn't try to sell weapons to rogue nations

And what is up with the disinformation here? The Army is NOT here to quell the protests, thats the job of the police. Army takes takes of cross border infiltrations

Reactions: Like Like:
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## arihant

BATMAN said:


> Using _*Israeli weapons to kill Muslims is symbolic and could have diplomatic advantages as well.*_
> They may have *serial numbers with magical numbers*... same as US troops use.



I don't think you deserve to be in Elite Panel. You are putting Baseless arguments on the basis of stickers. Shame on you.


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## Big Bang

INDIAN007 said:


> hOW dare u calling INDIA a terrorist state...........where is the administrator.......b4 talking abt others country talk abt urs country first



Cool Down, This is Not Your Forum that People hear to U, U have to live with it and Keep ur Blood Cold


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## BATMAN

^^ never mind... i don't reply you have more rights in darbar-e-akbar.
Enjoy.......

Israel may train Indian soldiers to fight for Kashmir
An agreement has been proposed by the Indian government whereby the Israel Defense Forces will train Indian soldiers in counter-terror tactics, urban warfare and fighting in guerrilla settings as part of India's war in Kashmir. 

The Israeli daily Moario reported that commander of the Zionist regimes ground forces general Avi Mizrahi arrived in Srinagar on a three-day visit to the Kashmir and met commanders of the Indian ground, air and naval forces. According to the report, he has traveled to the Indian-held Kashmir at the invitation of commander of the Indian air force.

During the three-day visit of the Israeli commander, the two sides agreed that commandoes of the Israeli Army would train India's anti-terrorism forces for fighting the Kashmiri Muslim combatants. 

The Jerusalem Post website has reported that General Avi Mizrahi also signed an agreement for military cooperation with India regarding fighting the Kashmir Muslim combatants. 

The Post added that the Indian government did not publish the news of Israeli commander's visit fearing of its negative impact, but press in India and Pakistan have carried reports of the visit. 

Islamist and nationalist groups in the Kashmir have expressed anger over the visit of the Israeli commander. Farooq Ahmed Dar, one of the prominent leaders of the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front said the visit of the Israeli commander to Kashmir is part of India's plan to suppress the Intefada Movement of the Kashmiri people and to change the demography of this region. 

Kashmir is India's only Muslim-majority state and is a major source of contention with neighboring Pakistan. 

India is the largest importer of arms from Israel and since 2002 has bought more than $5 billion worth of equipment. 

Israel's Counter-Terrorism Bureau has encouraged Israelis to avoid visiting the Kashmir region. An estimated 68,000 people have been killed in the fighting.


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## pankaj agrawal

good for india.... israel are the best in combating terrorism.


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## Big Bang

pankaj agrawal said:


> good for india.... israel are the best in combating terrorism.



Exactly, Must be a Nightmare for terrorists Now, Good For India that Israel is One among our dearest allies , Long live Our friendship


----------



## karan.1970

BATMAN said:


> Using Israeli weapons to kill Muslims is symbolic and could have diplomatic advantages as well.
> They may have serial numbers with magical numbers... same as US troops use.



Not that it matters but the ones firing these weapons are muslims as well


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## karan.1970

Big Bang said:


> Exactly, Must be a Nightmare for terrorists Now, Good For India that Israel is One among our dearest allies , Long live Our friendship



The attrition ratio is unbelievable. In sept 42 terrorists were sent to meet their maker with less than 5 casualties on the Army side.


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## Big Bang

karan.1970 said:


> The attrition ratio is unbelievable. In sept 42 terrorists were sent to meet their maker with less than 5 casualties on the Army side.



Indeed Its Improving day by day, the level of training has Improved many folds


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## BATMAN

karan.1970 said:


> Not that it matters but the ones firing these weapons are muslims as well



I don't think so...


----------



## BATMAN

pankaj agrawal said:


> good for india.... israel are the best in combating terrorism.





Big Bang said:


> Exactly, Must be a Nightmare for terrorists Now, Good For India that Israel is One among our dearest allies , Long live Our friendship



We can see the results after the said training.


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## Big Bang

BATMAN said:


> We can see the results after the said training.



Nothing New Dear, Indian anti terrorism Squads have been traditionally trained In Israel By Israel....


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## corporate_slave

BATMAN said:


> I don't think so...



It's not about what you "think". There is no subjectivity or opinion on this - there are only facts. The clashes between stone throwers and forces in the preceding weeks was between the protestors and *Kashmir police*, and not the Indian Army. The Indian army is not even serving in the cities of Kashmir, from several years now. They are only at the border/LOC. And dear "elite member", I am sure you would be aware that the J&K police is a completely locally recruited force, with almost all of them being Muslims.


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## pmukherjee

BATMAN said:


> Using Israeli weapons to kill Muslims is symbolic and could have diplomatic advantages as well.
> They may have serial numbers with magical numbers... same as US troops use.



Oh come off it pal. India using Israeli weapons to kill Muslims!!!!! How about Pakistan using Christian weapons to kill Muslims? But isn't that exactly what you are are doing in FATA and North Waziristan. Muslims using F-16s and AH-1 Huey Cobras to kill Muslims? Or isn't that what Turkey is doing against the Kurds?

Where is the god dammed symbolism in it? Nothing, pal. nothing at all. Yes you and the guy like the thread starter may get some of the guys here all hot and bothered but for the rest, it is no big deal. Those diabolic terrorists who attack the Pakistani establishment and kill hundreds of innocent citizens every day deserve to die and if Christian weapons do the job then so be it.

So if we use Israeli weapons or Christian weapons to exterminate vermin in Kashmir, they are just the tools that get the job done. Capiche??

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## Tuahaa

Why'd you have to say that Batman, now you just earned him like a dozen thanks for that post...


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## Illusive

These people would drag religion into almost anything. Nonsense arguments. Weapons are made to kill and defend be it Israeli or Indian. If thats the argument then why use AK-47 by these terrorist organizations, weren't it used by Russia against Chechnya rebels.


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## corporate_slave

Illusive said:


> These people would drag religion into almost anything. Nonsense arguments. Weapons are made to kill and defend be it Israeli or Indian. If thats the argument then why use AK-47 by these terrorist organizations, weren't it used by Russia against Chechnya rebels.



Yes, that is the point I have been observing here. It is a reality check for me that even educated Pakistani posters are so much into religious bigotry. Everything is a Muslim vs. non-Muslim issue for many of these people. They keep asking the US (in their own language, "a Christian country governed by Jews") to give them weapons, and they use those weapons to kill Muslims themselves! Where does their sense of outrage at 'Muslim killings' disappear then?


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## pmukherjee

Sorry, thanks but no thanks. Don't want no thanks. Just stating the obvious. The Pakistanis used hundreds of American 'Christian' Stingers to kill thousands of Russian 'Christians'. Nobody said anything then. Today Sunni Muslims kill Shias Muslims in mosques with Russian made 'Christian' AK-47s. OK Russian Orthodox, but very much Christian still. Nobody sees the irony in it. Suddenly Israeli infantry weapons are in the lime light. 

When will these !diots realize that weapons have NO religion. They are just tools.


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## MYSTIC

Nothing is going to work. Kashmir issue will be solved whenever we wish to solve it. Pakistan cannot win this war on the diplomatic front.


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## Omar1984

Kashmir is much more a Pakistani land than an indian land. Muslim majority Kashmir is far from the center of india, while its attached to Pakistan and is just a few miles away from the capital of Pakistan, Islamabad.


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## WHF

Jana said:


> Both are same. The Israeli and Indian State Terrorism in these Countries that is Kashmir and Palestine is the same.
> 
> 
> The two terrorist states i.e Israel and India are indeed collaborating in terms of weapons and terror tactics used on people of Kashmir and Palestine.
> 
> Check the record you will see same amount of killings of the innocent by these *terrorist states*



The last time i checked world was calling your country a terrorist state..

And about the sufferings of muslims well then doodh ke dhuley nahi ho aap log..Ab kya karey jana ji, hum log becharey Khaafir jo thaerey, bandhook uthana hi padtha hai.Woh kya hai naa aap jaisey Emaan waley musalmaan churi uthaye hum khafiro ka sar kalm karney ko daudtey jo hoo.

Ur are a journalist?? which pathetic journal house has employed u??


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## Omar1984

*Protests in Islamabad, Srinagar
9-Month-Old Baby &#8216;Critically Injured&#8217; ​*

Islamabad/Srinagar, Oct 10: *Amid protests and clashes in Srinagar, a nine-month-old baby was critically injured after the police and CRPF allegedly beat him in south Kashmir&#8217;s Islamabad town this evening.*

&#8220;Without any provocation, the forces barged into the house of Manzoor Ahmad Bhat, proprietor Manzoor Fabrics, in Khanabal and beat up all the inmates including women and children,&#8221; eyewitnesses told Greater Kashmir. 

They alleged that a nine-month-old baby Asrar Manzoor was severely injured as he was also hit with batons in his head while he was in his mother&#8217;s lap. Asrar was shifted to the District Hospital, Islamabad. 

Witnesses said Asrar&#8217;s seven-year-old brother, Arsalan Manzoor, was also severely beaten by the forces. He has sustained grievous injuries. &#8220;Besides thrashing me severely the forces didn&#8217;t even spare my mother. They beat her too,&#8221; said Arsalan, alleging that all his household belongings were ransacked. Meanwhile, youth resorted to heavy stone pelting in many areas of the old town Islamabad and Khanabal-Pahalgam (KP) road in the evening. Forces retaliated by lobbing teargas canisters and chasing away the stone pelting youth at Malakhnag, Cheeni Chowk, Reeshi Bazar,

Achabal Adda, Janglat Mandi, Lal Chowk, Kadiporal, Sarnal, Mattan Chowk, Dangerpora, Laizibal, Gulshanabad, Khanabal and Naibasti. Several people were wounded in the clashes. 

Protests also erupted in Pampore, Shopian, Pulwama and Kulgam areas. 
In Shopian town, youth staged protests and allegedly attacked deputy commissioner&#8217;s office with stones. Police said they were later dispersed.

Meanwhile, after days of lull, protests erupted in several parts of Srinagar on Sunday amid the general strike called by the Hurriyat Conference (G). Police said curfew was lifted from the entire Valley and no restrictions were in place anywhere.

Shops and business remained closed during the day while the public transport was off the roads. However, private vehicles plied normally in most areas of the city.

In the afternoon protests broke out in several downtown and uptown localities including Nund Reshi Colony (B), Nowpora, Khanyar and Rainwari.
Young boys staged pro-freedom protests and raised slogans. They pelted police and CRPF with stones triggering clashes.

The CRPF men repeatedly attempted to disperse them by cane-charging. During the chase, CRPF allegedly entered into many residential areas and ransacked houses by smashing the windowpanes.

Reports said protests also rocked Chanakhan in north Kashmir&#8217;s Sopur town where the protesters resorted to stone pelting on police and paramilitary forces.
Police said one protester Waseem Akbar Lone son of Mohammad Akbar Lone resident of Chankhan Sopore was injured in the police action. He was shifted to sub-district hospital Sopur where from doctors referred him to SKIMS, Srinagar. 

Meanwhile, police launched a special drive to check motorcycles in the city after a reported incident of unidentified bike-borne persons threatening private vehicle owners yesterday to enforce a strike called by Geelani.

The checking was carried out at several places including Lal Chowk, Jehangir Chowk and Budshah Chowk but no arrests were made.


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## BATMAN

Tuahaa said:


> Why'd you have to say that Batman, now you just earned him like a dozen thanks for that post...



It said what forced the news.
Why American weapons are not reported? simply because those are not symbolic.
Israeli arms used in Kashmir are indeed symbolic.
If their is nothing abnormal why discuss?


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## toppys

justanobserver said:


> Dude wtf are you smoking?
> Dunno about Israel, but we're definitely not a 'buffer state against islamic terrorism'



Dude i can answer in same language but then u will have to take bath for several days.. Please keep urself indian.


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## RPK

J&K integral part of India: Deoband - Hindustan Times

Pointedly snubbing the separatists in the Kashmir Valley, who have often used Islam as a rallying point, the Darul Uloom Deoband, the spiritual headquarters of Sunni Islam, and its influential social front, Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind, affirmed on Sunday that Jammu and Kashmir was an integral part of India.

At a massive conclave called by the Jamaat at the Deoband seminary campus, 150 km northeast of Delhi, the gathered clerics sent out a clear message that Kashmirs unrest should not be exploited to fuel separatism.

*India is a bouquet of all types of flowers. We cannot allow any of the flowers to be taken away, said senior Darul theologian Abdul Rahim Bastawi.
*
The long pending demands of Kashmiri people must be addressed within the framework of the Constitution of India, said a resolution passed at the conclave.

Historically, the Jamiat, along with Darul Uloom, had been opposed to the partitioning of the country along religious lines.

But post-Independence it has never spelt a position on Kashmir so clearly.

Deoband taking up the issue now, however belatedly, signals a renewed attempt to resist separatism. This assertion is more Indian than Islamic, said Akhtarul Wasey, head of Islamic Studies, Jamia Millia Islamia, Delhi.

Indian Muslims have to be taken on board while addressing the Kashmir issue. The unrest there and separatist tendencies have deep implications for rest of Indias Muslims, Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind leader Mahmood Madani told Hindustan Times, on the sidelines of the conclave.

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## Omar1984

Indian Muslims decided in 1947 that they would remain with india. Kashmiris were never even given a choice.


*What has Deoband done for us, ask Kashmiri students*



DEOBAND: Jamiat Ulama-i-Hind leader Maulana Mehmood Madani told TOI on Sunday, "After our rally on October 31 in Delhi, a delegation will visit Kashmir. We will speak to the people to find out what they want and then decide on our stand." 

Madani remained non-committal when asked about the organisation's stand on the three prevailing viewpoints in Kashmir: greater autonomy for the region within India, merger with Pakistan and azadi. Demanding that Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) and Public Safety Act (PSA) be lifted immediately, Swami Agnivesh said he had met Rahul Gandhi about the Kashmir situation. "He told me he would go and see it for himself." 

Representatives from Kashmir, however, were ambivalent. "As a Kashmiri, I am happy that Indian Muslims are at least raising their voice against injustice and repression in Kashmir," said Mufti Ajazul Hassan Banday, Markazi Shariat Board chairman from Sopore. He refused to comment though when asked about solving Kashmir issue within the Indian Constitution. 

*Several Kashmiri students and employees at Darul Uloom Deoband, whom TOI spoke to, were not impressed though. Azadi is what they want. Mohammed Rafique, in charge of Darul Uloom's Qutub Khana, said, "They are making statements for their own interest. What has the Deoband done for its Kashmiri students?" *

He narrated the travails of Sajjadur Rehman, a 22-year-old student of Arabic at Darul Uloom. "He was arrested from his home in Doda in 2007 for his alleged involvement in the Lucknow serial blasts. He is lodged in Lucknow jail. His father is running from pillar to post pleading with Darul Uloom authorities. Have they done anything except saying he was attending classes when the blasts happened," said Rafique


What has Deoband done for us, ask Kashmiri students - The Times of India

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## Luftwaffe

Why do you indians start multiple threads on Kashmir belonging to xyz.

Request Moderators to close down this thread.


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## abhi_baba

> a) IOK (valley)



Are you a commie ?


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## Awesome

MYSTIC said:


> What would be considered as Kashmir?



Do another plebiscite in Gilgit-Baltistan to settle the matter, but initially it will be considered part of Kashmir as mandated by the UN. Unless specifically specified in another agreement later on.



> Would Gilgit-Balistan also fall into Kashmir? What about Jammu and Leh? Northern Areas?



Everything is Kashmir, but obviously the people of these far flung regions feel very differently from the majority of the Kashmir valley. So another plebiscite may be necessary, but initial one has to include them all.



> What about the Indus water treaty? How do you think the water would be divided among the three countries.


Same international rules, the end user has the right to the water. 



> I am pretty sure Kashmir would reserve a lot for themselves as they are already complaining about less water at the moment?



Specific metrics will have to be calculated what goes in and out, but as a new country to the UN, it will have to follow set international procedures.



> Would Kashmir be declared a no military zone?


Kashmiris have not committed any genocide like losing WWII countries to be punished to not keep a military. From there on, Kashmir would be a free country to do as it wants.



> One of India's main concern would be Kashmir cozying up to Pakistan Army as they have provided financial support to the separatist movement for so long. Kashmir has acted as a buffer for India for very long. If Pakistan would have any presence in Kashmir, it would not go well with India.


Why would Kashmiris allow Pakistan army in there. From then on it would be Kashmiri army.



> Secular or theocratic? What about Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs? They were driven out by same separatist that would most likely rule Kashmir. How can they ensure safety of Hindus and Sikhs?



Kashmiris themselves are anti-extremists. They will not allow a shariah based theocracy / mullahocracy to rule them.

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## Awesome

dabong1 said:


> I might be wrong about you being a pakistani but i find it harder to accept that your indian that is talking common sense when it comes to kashmir.


Took the words out of my mouth. I had discarded away Indian ethics to their moral bankruptcy when it comes to Kashmir. Inwardly I always wondered if they want to see Kashmiris suffer just because they are pissed off about the 1947 partition and are just being too stubborn to hold on to a tiny piece of land whose people obviously don't want them.

Refreshing to see, some people can at least still think in India, whether or not they agree with Pakistan is another thing, but at least they are thinking about solving a problem.


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## Awesome

MYSTIC said:


> What if each regions was to hold a plebiscite and asked to choose one the three options: 1) Join India, 2) Join Pakistan, 3) Independence.
> 
> What would the result be from these following region
> a) IOK (valley)
> b) *** (AJK)
> c) Gilgit-Balistan
> d) Jammu
> e) Leh
> f) Northern Areas
> 
> Who would end up loosing more land? India would only loose the valley while Pakistan would loose ***, Gilgit-Balistan and Northern Areas.



It doesn't matter, they are not our lands to begin with.

There should be a series of plebiscites, first with one question. "Do you want Independence? or Join Pakistan / India?"

If Independence fails then we vote between Pakistan and India, if Independence wins we don't need to do the second plebiscite.

Upon any resolution we'll make it mandatory on the Kashmiris to allow another plebiscite to for regional votes.

In case Jammu, Leh and and GB don't agree with the new federation and want to be with Pakistan/India.

This ensures democracy wins. The people get to choose.

PS Northern Areas is known as GB now. So you cant count that separately.


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## Awesome

When the dust settles, Jammu and Leh may go to India, and the rest may either go independent or go with Pakistan. We can't say anything, Kashmiris have to say everything.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Kashmiris should decide about what they want. UN should ask them.


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## RollingStones

Omar1984 said:


> Kashmir is much more a Pakistani land than an indian land. Muslim majority Kashmir is far from the center of india, while its attached to Pakistan and is just a few miles away from the capital of Pakistan, Islamabad.



This is why I call you a propagandist. That is NOT a good argument at all. One thing I have noticed in this forum is that Indians and Pakistanis wave off propaganda. So, I think you are wasting your time posting such banal stuff. Deeper, more complicated solutions and arguments are required. Kashmir is certainly viewed as an unfinished business from partition of India and Pakistan I think. I wonder if the Indian Muslims are themselves against Kashmir being declared independent. If this is the case, the Government of India will face a tough task in declaring KV even an SAR. This is a complicated problem - there are no easy solutions. Simplifying it through arguments such as yours just trivializes the struggles of the humanity over there. Lets not do that.


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## arihant

Asim Aquil said:


> It doesn't matter, they are not our lands to begin with.
> 
> There should be a series of plebiscites, first with one question. "Do you want Independence? or Join Pakistan / India?"
> 
> If Independence fails then we vote between Pakistan and India, if Independence wins we don't need to do the second plebiscite.
> 
> Upon any resolution we'll make it mandatory on the Kashmiris to allow another plebiscite to for regional votes.
> 
> In case Jammu, Leh and and GB don't agree with the new federation and want to be with Pakistan/India.
> 
> This ensures democracy wins. The people get to choose.
> 
> PS Northern Areas is known as GB now. So you cant count that separately.



Certainly first time I agree with you on Kashmir issue. I don't have problem with Kashmir independence until it is another de facto Talibani zone. Certainly loosing kashmir is not going to be shortage of water but a another military problem for India. But certainly a independent kashmir with *UN troops*, should not be problem for me.


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## brahmastra

^^ Why you give funny source like greaterkashmir.
Case Dismissed.


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## Ghazialamdeenshaheed

> The Army has *killed *42 militants



dear the word is shaheed.


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## Ghazialamdeenshaheed

nice weapons to shoot kids


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## Ghazialamdeenshaheed

> He said Pakistan has forgotten the Kashmir..even if they forgot their own land they will not forget Kashmir




so very true my dear.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

is this how they usually blow steam?


Shiv Sena wastes lakhs of litres of milk in 'protest'






so much for their version of ''nationalism'' --especially when millions of indians who are poor would do anything to consume what was being wasted


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## Ghazialamdeenshaheed

these indians are so jealous of muslim unity that thaey have never been able to digest the creation of pakistan.breaking it gives them the false satisfaction that balochis,punjabis,sindhis,muhajirs are just races and that the concept of muslim united pakistan does not exist.they have never understood the feeling of muslim brotherhood and never will.Infact they are fighthing against an ideology..good luck..


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## Ghazialamdeenshaheed

> Be happy that india is a hindu majority state, or else if minorities were to demand seperation from a muslim majority state like KSA and resort to stone pelting on security forces ,the world knows that a leg and a hand diagonally will be chopped off form their body..Mighty shariat u know..
> I strongly feel kashmiris who advocate freedom for the creation of a shariat abiding state should get the taste of shariat.Tey should be puished acording to shariat law



dont worry they wont chop your hand off.poor guy he's so scared.


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## Ghazialamdeenshaheed

they waste the milk and dont let them eat meat.no wonder they suffer from protien calorie malnutrition.


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## Perceptron

Ghazialamdeenshaheed said:


> dear the word is shaheed.


Shahadat is reserved only for those who fight and die like Men, not like the sneaky Rats that they are born and trained to be. And, by that logic, do you consider the Taliban also as shaheed when they are killed by the Pakistani Army ?


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## Ghazialamdeenshaheed

> Pls take care of your own country which is running on foriegn assitance.




dont worry dear.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

sasuke said:


> One thing I can't understand ... why free Kashmir is thought of merging with Pakistan? Who would want to merge with a country on the verge of economic collapse even if its for religious sake. It doesn't make any sense ... who would go and kill their own economy and their livelihoods.
> .



what you really should be asking is, despite a relatively more favourable economic situation -- why do Kashmiris (of all generations) still despise hindustan's occupation? Why the massive uprising, the largest since over a decade?



they are fed up of occupation (and on top of that, brutal mistreatment, vandalism, harassment by we know who)



macroeconomic indicators are not good marketing tools to sway (or coerce) Kashmiris into surrendering their dreams and aspirations, which have been existing for quite some time now. 

the sooner indian realize this, it will be good for your mental and physical health 













p.s. imposing curfews and bandhs (and a little bit of tear-gas and rubber/live ammunition discharges) are more likely to have a more adverse impact on the local economy -- that is one key factor behind the "killed" economy and their livelihoods that you were talking about


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## Ghazialamdeenshaheed

> Shahadat is reserved only for those who fight and die like Men



yes dear those who lie under your tanks with bombs to defend their nation.






> sneaky Rats



why are you calling yourself this?isnt baniya enough of a disgrace for you?



> do you consider the Taliban also as shaheed when they are killed by the Pakistani Army ?




im not sitting here to answer your questions ..but one thing is for sure that when we kill your soldiers(sneaky rats) like dogs they are definitively not shaheed..


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## corporate_slave

Ghazialamdeenshaheed said:


> these indians are so jealous of muslim unity that thaey have never been able to digest the creation of pakistan.breaking it gives them the false satisfaction that balochis,punjabis,sindhis,muhajirs are just races and that the concept of muslim united pakistan does not exist.they have never understood the feeling of muslim brotherhood and never will.Infact they are fighthing against an ideology..good luck..



Hmm, new joinee - rush of rapid posts on Kashmir, eh? So, let me be the first to respond to you.

What Islamic unity are you talking about? The same unity that caused East Pakistan to separate? The same unity due to which almost every citizen of Afghanistan hates you to the core? I can go on and on, don't have much time... good luck to *you*, if you want to bleed yourself for another 63 years!


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## Perceptron

Ghazialamdeenshaheed said:


> yes dear those who lie under your tanks with bombs to defend their nation.


Nice, so we have Tanks in Kashmir now ? I think you must be confused about IA and the PA which is killing its own civilians and using Gunships and choppers to kill them ? And as far bombs go, the only one who are strapped with them are the TTP who get their 72 houris after sending some of the boys over in the PA to their jannat.




Ghazialamdeenshaheed said:


> why are you calling yourself this?isnt baniya enough of a disgrace for you?


 I don't know which is better ? But i do know what you called yourself below.



Ghazialamdeenshaheed said:


> im not sitting here to answer your questions ..but one thing is for sure that *when *we kill your soldiers(sneaky rats) *like dogs* they are definitively not shaheed..


That's a big When. As of now, save the hide of your own canines when the TTP are doing daily Diwalis and i don't see a bright future either when PA moves into NW.


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## Ghazialamdeenshaheed

you shouldnt have a problem with what happens in pakistan.has your largest democracy grown small for you that you come here.please dont grace us with your presence.


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## Ghazialamdeenshaheed

> save the hide of your own canines



please have some respect for those who ruled your forefathers for a 1000 years.


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## American Pakistani

Dear Kashmiri brothers Pakistan is with you, Just call Pakistan. You must understand that if one Kashmiri is hurt, the pain is felt all over the motherland Pakistan. Pakistan is our motherland, how can a mother forget its one child who is severly wounded by a wolf, A motherland Pakistan always feel pain for Kashmir, no matter Kashmir become indepandant or merge with Pakistan it will be a reason of Pakistan theory, A Two Nation Theory,Bengal separated from its motherland Pakistan due to conspiracies against Pakistan but is still part of the same Pakistan Theory.


PAKISTAN ZINDABAD


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## Ghazialamdeenshaheed

india will have to cross the bodies of 18crore pakistanis to harm kashmiris.good luck india


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## Perceptron

Ghazialamdeenshaheed said:


> please have some respect for those who ruled your forefathers for a 1000 years.


Don't worry, my Forefathers ruled your forefathers around 2000 years earlier (please don't tell me you don't know who your forefathers were; It would be an insult to them and for you both not to know your forefathers).


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## Ghazialamdeenshaheed

our forefather is HAZRAT ADAM(AS)

and plesae get lost if you dont know how to respect the prophets of ALLAH.
we dont want to see your filty face ever again.thank you and get lost.


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## Markus

The best possible answer to the Shiv Sena threat is to just ignore them.


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## Awesome

arihant said:


> Certainly first time I agree with you on Kashmir issue. I don't have problem with Kashmir independence until it is another de facto Talibani zone. Certainly loosing kashmir is not going to be shortage of water but a another military problem for India. But certainly a independent kashmir with *UN troops*, should not be problem for me.


Go through all of my posts on Kashmir for the past 10 years, I've always favored the Independence option but more importantly I've favored the option of Kashmiris choosing their own path, not Pakistan not India through UN administered plebiscite, involving UN troops for maintaining law and order over the region.

The vote should be a combined one from all of the UN designated regions and first question should be, Independence or joining India / Pakistan.

If Independence is chosen then that makes Kashmir a new country. Then we can have further regional votes to figure out if any region doesn't want to be independent.

If the second option is chosen then ask them ok, India or Pakistan?

Whoever gets it, the decision should be final.

Most importantly every decision should be made by UN administered voting only.


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## MYSTIC

Asim Aquil said:


> It doesn't matter, they are not our lands to begin with.
> 
> There should be a series of plebiscites, first with one question. "Do you want Independence? or Join Pakistan / India?"
> 
> If Independence fails then we vote between Pakistan and India, if Independence wins we don't need to do the second plebiscite.
> 
> Upon any resolution we'll make it mandatory on the Kashmiris to allow another plebiscite to for regional votes.
> 
> In case Jammu, Leh and and GB don't agree with the new federation and want to be with Pakistan/India.
> 
> This ensures democracy wins. The people get to choose.
> 
> PS Northern Areas is known as GB now. So you cant count that separately.



What you or I think is secondary. My question is whether the Pakistani government would be willing to loose NA, Giligit-Balistan and AJK? India would only loose the valley, while Pakistan would AJK, NA and Gilgit-Balistan.

There is a parallel between the Khalistan movement and Kashmir. If Pakistan continues supporting this movement, they might end us loosing a lot more than India. Pakistan stopped supporting the Khalistan movement for the very same reason.

Also everyones attention would than move towards Balouchistan. Correct me if I am wrong but I have seen a few video where BLA supporters claiming that they were assured independence by Pakistan during partition. Don't you think Pakistan would than be forced to hold a plebiscite in Balouchistan?

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## KS

Luftwaffe said:


> Why do you indians start multiple threads on Kashmir belonging to xyz.
> 
> Request Moderators to close down this thread.



*Why should every thread that undermines Pakistani propaganda on Kashmir be locked.?*

Especially when dozens of threads from unknown sources against Indian position is opened.

This thread deserves a debate coming from one of the most influential Muslim org in India , since Islam was always a rallying point for the Kashmiri separatism.

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## KS

dabong1 said:


> And maybe you indians should be thinking about Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram, Nagaland, Tripura ect before you start worring about kashmir.....you might lose all the above states in the process.



You forgot Tamil Nadu.

I also need freedom from these evil Bhartis.

BTW you need to google abt separatist movments in Arunachal Pradesh and Meghalaya..if there are any.


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## Gene

Ghazialamdeenshaheed said:


> nice weapons to shoot kids



let us have a try......kid


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Black Blood said:


> The people should have the final say.



+1.....


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## corporate_slave

Karthic Sri said:


> *Why should every thread that undermines Pakistani propaganda on Kashmir be locked.?*
> 
> Especially when dozens of threads from unknown sources against Indian position is opened.
> 
> This thread deserves a debate coming from one of the most influential Muslim org in India , since Islam was always a rallying point for the Kashmiri separatism.



And in the last two days, I have been encountering people who are trying to give this Kashmir thing a pan-Islamic touch and among other things, posting propaganda videos and pictures of Kashmir side by side with those of other disputes, and are trying to lump Kashmir, Chechnya, Palestine, and 100 other things under one umbrella. I ask them why the opinion of the 150 million Indian Muslims who want Kashmir to be part of India, should not be considered? Why should only the opinion of the Pakistani Muslims be taken as an excuse to give this a pan-Islamic colour?

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## LaBong

I think Deoband opposed the creation of Pakistan as well, according to them it was un-islamic, but offcourse, Pakistan was never an Islamic movement to begin with.


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## somebozo

same deoband which gave us shameful icons of bigots like Moododi and Qazi, Islamic extremism and terrorism. Gladly this anti-Pakistan segment can keep their views to themselves as they are no more welcome in Pakistan.







Their behavior is not new since 1940's
Its ok for India to claim Junagarth, Sikkim, Askai Chin and AP on basis of religious majority but the same coin does not work with Kashmir...world largest hypocrisy as best!

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## KS

Nishan said:


> How large is the similarities between the suffering of Kashmiris and the suffering of the Palestinians . . .Even their enemies . . .Using the same weapons





Jana said:


> Both are same. The Israeli and Indian State Terrorism in these Countries that is Kashmir and Palestine is the same.
> 
> Check the record you will see same amount of killings of the innocent by these terrorist states





Nishan said:


> Dear Jana There is a saying (Birds of a feather flock together) In the past, Israel is cooperating with the apartheid regime in South Africa It is unfortunate that Indians accept at themselfs to Be placed in the same basket With the racist regime like Israel



*
How many times this canard has to be answered.* 

*First:*

*Palestine* - UN recognised right to indpendence,*Kashmir* - Un doesnt recognise independence

*Palestine* - Did any ruler formally accede to Israel - NO ; *Kashmir* - the Maharaja formally signed the instrument of accession to make it a part of India.

*Palestine* - are the Palestinians chased out from Palestine- yes ; *Kashmir* - are the Kashmiris chased outfrom Kashmir - no (if the Hindus/Sikhs/Jains qualify as "Kashmiris" then maybe Yes)

*Palestine* - is their territory being occupied by settlers - yes : *Kashmir* - is territory being occupied by Hindu settlers from rest of India - NO
*
Palestine* - do Tanks ,bulldozers regularly demolish homes,buildings - YES ; *Kashmir* - Have Tanks even come once inside SriNagar - NO

*Palestine* - Do attack Helicopters regularly fire missiles at anything moving - YES ; *Kashmir* - Does that thing happen here - NO

*Palestine* - IS any HAMAS leader safe from MOSSAD - NO ; *Kashmir* - IS any hair on the head of a separatist leader harmed - NO .Infact they are given treatment at the taxpayers expense in Delhi and Mumbai


*Palestine *- Do the Israeli police calmly bear all the stones thrown on them - NO ;* Kashmir* - Poor CRPF not even allowed to fire and given only a lathi in hand.

*Palestine* - IS there a shortage of basic materials - YES ; *Kashmir* - one of the least poor states in India with annual assitance going into thousands of crores.

*Palestine* - IS there any blockade of essential supplies in place - YES ; *Kashmir* - NO[/B]

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## Areesh

> J&K integral part of India: Deoband

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## prototype

Jana said:


> Both are same. The Israeli and Indian State Terrorism in these Countries that is Kashmir and Palestine is the same.
> 
> 
> The two terrorist states i.e Israel and India are indeed collaborating in terms of weapons and terror tactics used on people of Kashmir and Palestine.
> 
> Check the record you will see same amount of killings of the innocent by these terrorist states



internet is also blazing with articles about Pakistani troop killing children in SWAT and suppressing protest's in occupied Kashmir,should i post it here to show who is actually showing terrorism

And by the way when the last time i heard,world leaders were not calling us terrorist's

And what weapon's we use that is our internal matter,now tell me here who is actually crying like a baby

and those people terming it as insurgency and guerrilla warfare,if we had asked our CRPF to go the Israeli and Chines way,u will b unable to hear even a single protest,and the world even did not came to know about it,instead of Tavor's,u people have seen T-90's running on the street of Srinagar,leave the above,we r very much soft on them does not means u people now start to dictate us,we very well know what to do


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## KS

somebozo said:


> Their behavior is not new since 1940's
> Its ok for India to claim Junagarth, Sikkim, Askai Chin and AP on basis of religious majority but the same coin does not work with Kashmir...world largest hypocrisy as best!



Junagadh - the same can be turned on you ,my friend.If Pakistan was willing to accpet Junagadh just because the ruler acceded to it against the wish of the local populace - why cant it accept the accesion of Kashmir to India by Maharaja Hari Singh.?

Sikkim, Askai Chin and AP - were they claimed on the basis of religion..?  .You need to re-visit your history classes.


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## Ghazialamdeenshaheed

> let us have a try......kid



isnt 63 years enough ?


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## Awesome

MYSTIC said:


> What you or I think is secondary. My question is whether the Pakistani government would be willing to loose NA, Giligit-Balistan and AJK? India would only loose the valley, while Pakistan would AJK, NA and Gilgit-Balistan.
> 
> There is a parallel between the Khalistan movement and Kashmir. If Pakistan continues supporting this movement, they might end us loosing a lot more than India. Pakistan stopped supporting the Khalistan movement for the very same reason.
> 
> Also everyones attention would than move towards Balouchistan. Correct me if I am wrong but I have seen a few video where BLA supporters claiming that they were assured independence by Pakistan during partition. Don't you think Pakistan would than be forced to hold a plebiscite in Balouchistan?


Pakistan is not worried since its just silly hype about BLA - which is an armed terrorist organization run by feudal lords. A person on the ground knows what monsters feudal lords really are and there will never be a serious demand on Pakistan for Balochistan.

Pakistan has always been steadfast on the commitment to uphold the UN mandated plebiscite and will abide by it. 

Also your speculation that you will win Jammu and Leh and we won't win at GB is a little self-serving, we don't expect that to happen.


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## somebozo

> There is a parallel between the Khalistan movement and Kashmir. If Pakistan continues supporting this movement, they might end us loosing a lot more than India. Pakistan stopped supporting the Khalistan movement for the very same reason.



Khalistan movement died its own natural death..and the political motive to support it also died with the assassination of Indra. Pakistan achieved its goals by eliminating trouble maker.


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## Ghazialamdeenshaheed

> J&K integral part of India: Deoband - Hindustan Times



molvis get good pay from their masters.plus loads of halwa for these statements.
well done molvis may you get more halwa.

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## somebozo

Karthic Sri said:


> Junagadh - the same can be turned on you ,my friend.If Pakistan was willing to accpet Junagadh just because the ruler acceded to it against the wish of the local populace - why cant it accept the accesion of Kashmir to India by Maharaja Hari Singh.?



Ruler?? Which ruler??? Are you delusional of false history is taught in India?? The ruler acceded to Pakistan, India invaded on the basis of religious majority, installed a puppet government then held a plebiscite. 

Its India which is being a hypocrite over Kashmir. Its policy is clear..what ever belongs to me is mine and whats yours is also mine! Ideal countries of baniyas!

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## Awesome

somebozo said:


> Khalistan movement died its own natural death..and the political motive to support it also died with the assassination of Indra. Pakistan achieved its goals by eliminating trouble maker.


In truth the Kashmir issue is unparalleled. In the sense that it is simple to resolve it if only people did the right thing. It can't even be compared to Israel Palestine.

Kashmir is a political dispute and not a religious one.

Solution exists and was once agreed upon

A clear Majority vote exists

Of the three parties involved, Pakistan, Kashmir and India - only one party has so far shown resistance towards acceptable solutions.


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## KS

somebozo said:


> Ruler?? Which ruler??? Are you delusional of false history is taught in India?? The ruler acceded to Pakistan, India invaded on the basis of religious majority, installed a puppet government then held a plebiscite.



Now read my previous post again ,,,but S L O W L Y.

Yes the ruler of Junagadh acceded to Pakistan and the local populace were against it.

Now if Pakistan was willing to accept that (Junagadh's accesion to Pakistan against the wishes of the ppl),why cant they accept the exact same when it happened in Kashmir where the ruler acceded to India and a part of the local populace wanted to be independent.?

Isnt that hypocrisy on the Pakistani part.?


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## Avatar

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> is this how they usually blow steam?
> 
> 
> Shiv Sena wastes lakhs of litres of milk in 'protest'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so much for their version of ''nationalism'' --especially *when millions of indians who are poor would do anything to consume what was being wasted*



Millions may be poor but not desperate. If they wanted better living so bad, they wouldn't be poor or homeless. The people who earn less than 2$ actually need less than 50 cents for a days meal. Most people are lazy or lack opportunity, so they just work on the fields for some time and then spend the rest of the time "chilling" around until they run out of money.


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## Ghazialamdeenshaheed

what a chill country.


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## Pride

First of all people have misconceptions that if an area is muslim majority then that will be Pakistan and if Hindu major then it would be India during partition. There were several factors like ruler's choice, feasibility (Hyderabad can't be Pakistan surrounded by India from all sides), public choice then political support. People here always discuss about Junagadh, Hyderabad and Kashmir while they forget about How Kalat has joined Pakistan which is root cause of Baloch upsurge and why NWFP is with Pak when it's leader Frontier Gandhi wants it to merge with India.


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## xenia

rpraveenkum said:


> J&K integral part of India: Deoband - Hindustan Times
> 
> Pointedly snubbing the separatists in the Kashmir Valley, who have often used Islam as a rallying point, the Darul Uloom Deoband, the spiritual headquarters of Sunni Islam, and its influential social front, Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind, affirmed on Sunday that Jammu and Kashmir was an integral part of India.


lol deobands dont even believe in spirituality n they r calling them spiritual headquartes..
besides they were the ones who opposed formation of pakistan, laid a kufr fatwa on Quaid-e-Azam n arent they the ones who called hindustan Daar ul Harb? too many faces..


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## xenia

Karthic Sri said:


> Now read my previous post again ,,,but S L O W L Y.
> 
> Yes the ruler of Junagadh acceded to Pakistan and the local populace were against it.
> 
> Now if Pakistan was willing to accept that (Junagadh's accesion to Pakistan against the wishes of the ppl),why cant they accept the exact same when it happened in Kashmir where the ruler acceded to India and a part of the local populace wanted to be independent.?
> 
> Isnt that hypocrisy on the Pakistani part.?


but ultimately junagarh became part of india..so now let kashmir be part of pakistan..isnt that indian hypocricy to use double edged sword?

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## Omar1984

Pride said:


> First of all people have misconceptions that if an area is muslim majority then that will be Pakistan and if Hindu major then it would be India during partition.



Here is an interview of a Kahsmiri with an Indian Muslim newspaper:

Interview: Mirwaiz Umar Farooq
Kashmir is not an Islamic issue

Mirwaiz Maulvi Umar Farooq is a popular figure in Kashmir. He joined politics at a tender age of 17 in 1990 shortly after his father, Mirwaiz Maulana Farooq, was assassinated. Since then Maulvi Umar Farooq has matured enough to comprehend the intricacies of politics. He is a former chairman of the All Party Hurriyat Conference (APHC) and holds a masters degree in Islamic Studies. Nasir Husain Peerzadah of The Milli Gazette met the Mirwaiz at his residence in Nageen. 

Excerpts: 

You joined politics at a very critical juncture when your father was martyred. Was it a choice or compulsion? 
When my father was martyred in May 1990 I was advised by some relatives not to join politics. But looking to the past when our family is seen involved in preaching the message of Islam to Kashmiri Muslims, I had to take the responsibilities albeit reluctantly in the beginning. Later things were left to Allah and I willingly accepted to shoulder the responsibilities thrust upon me and willingly accepted the challenges.

How has the Kashmir issue emerged in your view?
*Kashmir problem emerged at the moment when India and Pakistan came into being. Logically it had to be part of Pakistan. But the conspiracies of Indian leaders coupled with some Kashmiris stopped Kashmir to be a part of Pakistan. So the problem emerged and later the refusal of the right of self determination aggravated the problem further which was promised by Nehru-a promise which could never be fulfilled.*

The Kashmir problem is lingering for a long time. We see other international conflicts heading towards some solutions. Why such a long stalemate for Kashmir?
India is not serious for the resolution of Kashmir issue. Post nuclear scenario demands that the issue be solved amicably in order to ensure peace in the Subcontinent. It would be in the interest of India if the issue is resolved.

How would you highlight the role of the APHC?
The APHC was formed in 1993 when all the religio-political parties came under a single banner to voice for the oppressed Kashmiris. Since then the Conference has been strongly advocating the cause of Kashmiris. It has internationalized the issue to a great extent. It has been granted the observer status by the OIC. I have been the former chairman of APHC. I travelled to many foreign countries pleading for the cause of Kashmiris. So APHC is a potent force.

Why are you not joining hands with the 200-million-strong Indian Muslims so as to be an honourable community in India?
*Kashmir is not a Hindu-Muslim case. It is a political and human problem. We have been made to loose our identity. Indian Muslims were given the chance to determine their fate in 1947. Kashmiris have never felt that they are a part of India. So we cannot be kept as hostages.*

What is your view about a long lasting solution of Kashmir?
We want the implementation of the UN resolutions which state that the people of Kashmir should be asked to opt for either India or Pakistan. We also support tripartite talks between India, Pakistan and Kashmiris. The princely state which existed before 1947, all the representatives from all regions of this state should be allowed to discuss in order to reach some amicable solution.

Jammuites and Ladakhis have not joined the movement. Which solution would be applicable to the Kashmir issue?
Well, you see it is not an Islamic issue. Let the people of Jammu and Ladakh be given the option: if they want to join India we cannot stop them. 

Do you favour the division of state and the solution on communal lines?
If that is the only way what can we do? Still then there is support in some regions of Jammu with predominant Muslim population for the movement.

How do you look to the report issued by the Kashmir Study Group based in the US?
A lot of solutions have been suggested by people. One professor from California suggests some 35 solutions. The Kashmir Study Group suggests a state within state seeking guarantees from both India and Pakistan and urging both the governments to enter into certain international agreements. The report/suggestions would be thoroughly debated and discussed. Yet no official stance has been taken by us.

You were offered talks by India. Any comment?
On one hand, India is suppressing us and on the other hand we are offered to come to table and to talk within the confines of Indian constitution. This is not possible.



Interview: Mirwaiz Umar Farooq

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## greatsequence

First of All its not Deoband but Jamiat-ulama-e-hind. Deoband had both factions before partition. Maulana Asharaf Ali Thanvi in favour of Pakistan and Maulana Hussain Ahmed Madani in favour of United India.
The person who rose the flag of Pakistan first time officially in West Pakistan Maulana Shabbeer Ahmad Usmani, East Pakistan Maulana Zafar Ahmad Usmani who was the person for whom QuadeAzam said that he must lead my namaz e Janaza Maulana Shabber Ahmad Usmani. Yes all of them were from Deoband.

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## Pride

Kashmir as a soverign state, in my opinion, will not be feasible in any ways. Reasons:-
1)First of all as discussed above by everyone, what they (whole J&K including AJK and GB) want will not get from neither India nor Pakistan. Leh and Jammu will be with India while GB is considered by Pakistan as their state. 

2) If AJK and Valley makes a new country as Kashmir then AJK has to not follow Pak orders (Read their constitutional line.. nothing against Pakistan). Hence the soverignity will be a BIG qn mark.

3) Land locked Kashmir will be a playground of 3 mighty nations surrounded hence it has to be on favorable side of some one hence soverignity will be an issue.

4) Economical survival will be a difficult task as Tourism will be major way of earning following by Handicrafts, and few crops like Kesar etc. No major industrial developement can be done due to difficult terrains.

5) Unlike Indo-Pak partition, Kashmir will not recieve aide from either of the nation and hence start building a nation will be very difficult.


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## Pride

Omar1984 said:


> Here is an interview of a Kahsmiri with an Indian Muslim newspaper:
> 
> Interview: Mirwaiz Umar Farooq



How is this related to my post? Ok let me ask few qns and expect a sincere ans for them.

1) How Kashmiri Muslims in Jan 1948 asked Pakistan's help for joining them for which Tribal army attacked. Could you please show me a proof? any gazetier or letter from Kashmir's group of leader?

2) Why NWFP is with Pakistan where political elected leader Mr Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan wants to join India?

3) Why and How Kashmir is different from other Indian/Pakistan state for which it should be given independance? Any past History when it was not part of United India?

4) When Mr farooq or Mr Geelani says it is not religious matter how come Only Kashmiri Muslims have problem and not Jammu's Hindu & Sikh and Laddakh's Buddist have issue?


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## Pride

Omar1984 said:


> Kashmir is much more a Pakistani land than an indian land. Muslim majority Kashmir is far from the center of india, while its attached to Pakistan and is just a few miles away from the capital of Pakistan, Islamabad.



Whatta Logic? :facepalm:

According to your logic.. give KP to Afghanistan as that is more near to center of Afghanistan and pretty easily accessible from Kabul.


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## KS

Omar1984 said:


> Interview: Mirwaiz Umar Farooq
> Kashmir is not an Islamic issue
> 
> Interview: Mirwaiz Umar Farooq



Why talking about Mirwaiz now...when your champion Geelani is of completely different view:

Geelani rejects any unity with those advocating secularism 



> Echoing his mentor Maududi, Geelani argues that Kashmir, whether as an independent country, or, ideally, for him, as part of Pakistan, must become an Islamic state'. Our goal is the establishment of Islamic government ( islami hukumat )', he contends. [1] The freedom', he says the Kashmiris are struggling for, is for the sake of Islam'.



Syed Ali Shah Geelani And The Movement For
Political Self-Determination For Jammu And Kashmir

The autumn of Kashmir's Islamist patriarch?


Kashmir's new Islamist movement


--------------------------------------------------------------------

Kashmir has long ago changed from a movement for self-determination to a movement based on religious intolerance and the supposed supremacy of Islam.

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## MYSTIC

Asim Aquil said:


> In truth the Kashmir issue is unparalleled. In the sense that it is simple to resolve it if only people did the right thing. It can't even be compared to Israel Palestine.
> 
> Kashmir is a political dispute and not a religious one.
> 
> Solution exists and was once agreed upon
> 
> A clear Majority vote exists
> 
> Of the three parties involved, Pakistan, Kashmir and India - only one party has so far shown resistance towards acceptable solutions.



If the solution are balanced and favors all parties involved than it would be acceptable. But having a decision that only favor Kashmir and Pakistan would not be accepted by the Indian government.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*India is trying to Crush Kashmiri movement by force ​* 
TopNews 
Written by KMS 
Monday, 11 October 2010 13:13 







Srinagar, October 11, 2010: APHC chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, has said that India is trying to crush the Kashmiris&#8217; struggle through use of brute force ahead of the US President, Barrack Obama&#8217;s visit to India.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani, in a statement issued in Srinagar, termed the attempt by the occupation authorities to quell the ongoing "Quite Kashmir Movement" forcefully as an effort to hoodwink the international community about the situation in the occupied territory.

He asked the people of Kashmir to keep united among their ranks to foil nefarious designs of the authorities to harm the movement. &#8220;Peace and stability in South Asia cannot prevail till the resolution of Kashmir dispute,&#8221; he added.

Appealing the people to make protest programme, announced by him as a part of "Quit Kashmir Movement", a success, Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that Kashmiris would continue their struggle for right of Self-Determination till its logical end. He said that if the puppet Chief Minister, Umar Abdullah, was sincere to his words then he should resign and join the pro-freedom camp.


Felicitating the Hajj aspirants, Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that they should say special prayers for success of the liberation movement in Occupied State of Jammu and Kashmir (OSJK).

&#8220;Sacrifices of the Kashmiri people have centre-staged the Kashmir dispute. International community understands that Kashmiris&#8217; movement is an indigenous freedom struggle against Indian occupation,&#8221; he maintained.

The APHC leader, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has expressed serious concern over the miserable plight of the illegally detained Kashmiris in various jails. In a statement issued in Srinagar he said, &#8220;The detainees are being treated inhumanely. They have been even denied medical care and their relatives are not allowed to meet them regularly.&#8221; He maintained that Kashmiris&#8217; liberation struggle had been recognized at the international level and there was no justification in mistreating the pro-freedom leadership and Kashmiris in the jails. He appealed to the international human rights organizations to take cognizance of the matter.

Mirwaiz strongly denounced the restrictions imposed by the occupation authorities on Sunday to thwart an indoor session to mark the Prisoners&#8217; Day. &#8220;I want to maintain that we had not to stage protests or take out procession but only organize a session to pay tributes to the prisoners. Putting curbs on our symbolic and peaceful programs clearly shows authorities&#8217; frustration,&#8221; he added.

Umar Farooq pointed out that after the Lal Chowk march on Eid-ul-Fitr, the puppet administration had left no stone unturned to quell peaceful protests in the territory. He deplored that the present regime was helpless and had now confined to only curfews, restrictions, crackdowns and putting leaders under house arrest.


Senior Hurriyet leader and the Vice Chairman of Jammu and Kashmir Muslim League, Masarrat Aalam Butt, has said that the people of Kashmir will continue their just liberation struggle till its logical conclusion. Masarrat Aalam Butt in a statement issued in Srinagar appealed the people to take part in Hyderpora March in large numbers on Tuesday to free Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who is under illegal house arrest since Eid.

He warned the occupation authorities of massive agitation if they did not stop their oppressive tactics in the territory. Masarrat Aalam Butt said that the use of force could not deter Kashmiris&#8217; resolve to get freedom from Indian bondage.

Calling India an uncivilized nation that had been enslaving Kashmiris for the past 63 years, he said that the occupation authorities were trying to suppress the liberation struggle through use of brute force.

The authorities have booked four persons under the black law, Public Safety Act (PSA) in Shopian district for participating in recent anti-India demonstrations. Four persons had been booked under Indian laws in the district. Those who have been booked under the Indian black laws include Mufti Wajib, Farooq Ahmed, Ayaz Ahmed and Shiraz. They have been lodged in Kathua jail.

A nine-month-old baby was critically injured after Indian troops beat him up in south Kashmir&#8217;s Islamabad town. Eyewitnesses told mediamen that Indian forces without any provocation barged into the house of Manzoor Ahmad Bhat, proprietor Manzoor Fabrics, in Khanabal and beat up all the inmates including women and children. They said that a nine-month-old baby, Asrar Manzoor, was critically injured as he was also hit with batons in his head while he was in his mother&#8217;s lap. Asrar was shifted to the district hospital, Islamabad.


The witnesses stated that Asrar&#8217;s seven-year-old brother, Arsalan Manzoor, also sustained grievous injuries after he was beaten ruthlessly by the troops.

People took to the streets in many areas of the town in protest against the incident. Indian police and troops used brute force to disperse the protesters injuring several persons.

Anti-India demonstrations were staged in Bemina, Chattabal, Batamaloo, Saida Kadal, Rainawari, Rajouri Kadal, Gojwara, Nund Reshi Colony, Nowpora, Khanyar, Pampore, Shopian, Pulwama, Kulgam, Sopore, Handwara and Baramulla areas. The occupation forces resorted to heavy baton charge and excessive teargas shelling to break up the demonstrations at many places. A civilian, Waseem Akbar Lone, resident of Chankhan in Sopore, was critically injured in the police action. He was shifted to sub-district hospital Sopore where from doctors referred him to Soura hospital in Srinagar. A youth was hit on his head by a teargas shell fired by the police in Baramulla. He was rushed to SHMS hospital where his condition was stated to be critical.

In Srinagar, Indian forces entered into many residential areas, damaged several vehicles, smashed windowpanes of residential houses and ransacked household goods.

India is trying to Crush Kashmiri movement by force

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## Spring Onion

Angrez sarkar was behind creation of Deoband for obvious reasons.

2. Deoband fitna is Indian it has NO right to speak about another country Occupied Kashmir 

3. Being Indian entity deoband is nobody to poke its nose into Ksahmiri affairs

4. Bharti Hindus are crying at top of their throat calling "Political" Islam as not acceptable anywhere SO in this case they are exposing their hypocrisy by gleeing over this 


the Bottom line is any Indian view on Country of Kashmiris is not at all carrying any weight

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## KS

Jana said:


> 2. Deoband fitna is Indian it has NO right to speak about *another country Occupied Kashmir *
> 
> 3. Being Indian entity deoband is nobody to *poke its nose into Ksahmiri affairs*



But arent all Muslims supposed to be part of one big country/brotherhood called Ummah and how every Muslim can speak up for his brother somewhere else.

So Deoband *has* the right to speak for them.

And going by your logic what are Pakistanis doing,poking their noses in Kashmir.?

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## Spring Onion

Karthic Sri said:


> But arent all Muslims supposed to be part of one big country/brotherhood called Ummah and how every Muslim can speak up for his brother somewhere else.
> 
> So Deoband *has* the right to speak for them.
> 
> And going by your logic what are Pakistanis doing,poking their noses in Kashmir.?




So is he speaking for Muslims elsewhere or he is speaking for Hindu India ??



If this ONE Deobandi was speaking for Ummah and Muslims then he would have spoke against Indian terrorism in Kashmir NOT acting like Krishna

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## Omar1984

Pride said:


> How is this related to my post? Ok let me ask few qns and expect a sincere ans for them.



Indian Muslims dont have a say in the Kashmir issue.

Indian Muslims decided to stay with india during partion in 1947, they are indians everyone accepts that.

The 4 provinces of Pakistan, NWFP, Punjab, Balochistan, and Sindh decided in a referendum to join Pakistan. This is documented, so you cant argue about "leaders". The voice of the people is what matters.

Kashmir was never given a referendum, thats why Kashmir is a disputed territory, recognized by the UN as a disputed territory.

Thats why Kashmiris like Mirawiz Umar Farooq say (like in the interview I posted above) that unlike indian Muslims, Kashmiris were never given a chance to determine their fate.

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## doctor_who

*no wonder dear, 

kashmiri movement itself is forced and violent movement. these people with gun-- be it let or hijbul or what ever .......... india is just giving them suitable answer. and whole country support the cause. *

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## prototype

Jana said:


> Angrez sarkar was behind creation of Deoband for obvious reasons.




And what were those obivious reasons



Jana said:


> 2. Deoband fitna is Indian it has NO right to speak about another country Occupied Kashmir



since they r indian they have every authority to speak on this matter and r stakeholders on this matter,as far as occupier is India



Jana said:


> 3. Being Indian entity deoband is nobody to poke its nose into Ksahmiri affairs



They obiviously have more right than any Pakistani kid sitting in front of the computer and commenting about Kashmir



Jana said:


> 4. Bharti Hindus are crying at top of their throat calling "Political" Islam as not acceptable anywhere SO in this case they are exposing their hypocrisy by gleeing over this



Or is it that u r exposed with all those talks about Islam can not exist as a part of india therefore kashmir rightfully belong to Paksitan because of it Islamic populace,do u feel busted




Jana said:


> the Bottom line is any Indian view on Country of Kashmiris is not at all carrying any weight



currently it is the only one carrying weight,Pakistan had completely failed as of its own and bringing this as an international matter,no one is even ready to utter the k-word,we r the one who holds the card here


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## greatsequence

As Jamiat ulam-e-hind leader said in an interview with a pakistani news channel. What will happen to Indian Muslims if Kashmir gets its freedom. We should understand his plight. He is fighting for survival here, what else do you expect him saying.

You can look for the interview on youtube. Just type (Front Line Madani) in search box. Sorry at this very moment I can not tell the exact part.


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## Pride

Jana said:


> So is he speaking for Muslims elsewhere or he is speaking for Hindu India ??
> 
> 
> 
> If this ONE Deobandi was speaking for Ummah and Muslims then he would have spoke against Indian terrorism in Kashmir NOT acting like Krishna



Wow earlier Deoband was created by Britishers and now they are run by Hindus.. amazing. Anyways this institution has entry to your Karachi, Lahore and Faisalabad. 

This institution speaks for what is truth. It earlier opposed concept of Pakistan as Islam prohibits creation of any separate nation based on religion and they are same reiterating now as well.


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## KS

Jana said:


> So is he speaking for Muslims elsewhere or he is speaking for Hindu India ??



He is speaking for the Kashmiri Muslims and echoing the thoughts of 150 million Indian Muslims.



Jana said:


> If this ONE Deobandi was speaking for Ummah and Muslims then he would have spoke against Indian terrorism in Kashmir NOT acting like Krishna



He has spoken for the well-being of the Kashmiri Muslims and the well-being doesnt link with the fact whether they are with Hindu India or Buddhist Bhutan


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## BTG

Omar1984 said:


> Indian Muslims dont have a say in the Kashmir issue.
> 
> Indian Muslims decided to stay with india during partion in 1947, they are indians everyone accepts that.
> 
> The 4 provinces of Pakistan, NWFP, Punjab, Balochistan, and Sindh decided in a referendum to join Pakistan. This is documented, so you cant argue about "leaders". The voice of the people is what matters.
> 
> *Kashmir was never given a referendum, thats why Kashmir is a disputed territory, recognized by the UN as a disputed territory.
> *
> Thats why Kashmiris like Mirawiz Umar Farooq say (like in the interview I posted above) that unlike indian Muslims, Kashmiris were never given a chance to determine their fate.





I am interested in knowing the reason behind the bold and underlined part... Is it because Indian armed forces (Which implies the Indian government) never allowed a referendum to take place?? IF the answer is YES, can you please be kind enough to answer the below questions on why the Indian armed forces entered J&K in the first place...

1) Did Indian armed forces storm into Kashmir on the day of India independence and took control of the territory?

2) Or did the princely ruler of J&K accede to Pakistan and Indian forces occupied this region against this?

3) Or did the people of J&K revolted against the princely ruler of J&K and the said princely ruler acceded to India and requested Indian armed forces assistance, to crush this uprising?

4) Or the Indian armed forces entered J&K after the princely ruler acceded to India and asked for Indian armed forces assistance to chase away armed intruders from outside, making trouble in J&K?

5) Or the princely ruler had not yet decided on what should be the status of J&K state and the Indian armed forces occupied this J&K state during this undecided time?

Is the presence of Indian armed forces in J&K is because of any of the above, if so kindly let me know... if the answer is none of the above, can you then also be kind enough to help us all understand why Indian armed forces entered J&K in the first place...


----------



## Areesh

Pride said:


> Wow earlier Deoband was created by Britishers and now they are run by Hindus.. amazing. Anyways this institution has entry to your Karachi, Lahore and Faisalabad.
> 
> *This institution speaks for what is truth*. It earlier opposed concept of Pakistan as Islam prohibits creation of any separate nation based on religion and they are same reiterating now as well.



Yeah right since it being hypocrite supports your POV than it is supporting the truth and if says something otherwise, it would be Islamic Mullahs or extremists. Lollzzz. Looks like you have been swept away by irrational nationalism and have resorted to hypocrisy for justifying your occupation of Kashmir.


----------



## TaimiKhan

Abir said:


> I think Deoband opposed the creation of Pakistan as well, according to them it was un-islamic, but offcourse, Pakistan was never an Islamic movement to begin with.



It may not be an Islamic movement, but Islam was definitely a factor in the creation of Pakistan.


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## S_O_C_O_M

doctor_who said:


> *no wonder dear,
> 
> kashmiri movement itself is forced and violent movement. these people with gun-- be it let or hijbul or what ever .......... india is just giving them suitable answer. and whole country support the cause. *



how does it feel to be rejected?


----------



## xenia

Pride said:


> Wow earlier Deoband was created by Britishers and now they are run by Hindus.. amazing. Anyways this institution has entry to your Karachi, Lahore and Faisalabad.
> 
> *This institution speaks for what is truth. It earlier opposed concept of Pakistan as Islam prohibits creation of any separate nation based on religion and they are same reiterating now as well.*


lol n what abt their recent verdict that muslim women's earnings are haram..why was there so much hue n cry..i know thats off topic but shows the cherry picking approach of india..n the cherry was big one this time..


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## KS

S_O_C_O_M said:


> how does it feel to be rejected?



Tell us how you feel.?

98% Don`t Want To Join Pakistan - Kashmir Survey - Sri Lanka

Just 2% of people in J&K want to join Pak: Survey

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## Spring Onion

Karthic Sri said:


> He is speaking for the Kashmiri Muslims and echoing the thoughts of 150 million Indian Muslims.



Sorry he is NOT speaking for Kashmiri Muslims because Kashmiris do not consider Indian Occupation ligitimate and that is why Indian Occupying forces are there to curb Kashmiris since many decades.

2. Neither This one Mulla is echoing the voice of 150 million Indian Muslims Because these 150 Million Muslims have NO voice even for themselves. The proofs of it are many just to cite ONE that is recent Pro-Hindu verdict by dominating Hindu Court of India.






> He has spoken for the well-being of the Kashmiri Muslims and the well-being doesnt link with the fact whether they are with Hindu India or Buddhist Bhutan




The Kashmiris think differently. They think their well being is only in their own country which is occupied by India.

Claiming IoK as part of India, this mulla is just serving his Indian masters not speaking for Kashmiri Muslims


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## prototype

Jana said:


> .
> 
> 2. *Neither This one Mulla is echoing the voice of 150 million Indian Muslims Because these 150 Million Muslims have NO voice even for themselves. The proofs of it are many just to cite ONE that is recent Pro-Hindu verdict by dominating Hindu Court of India.*




So that mean to get a stamp from Pakistani people that Indian Muslims have voice,Indian courts have to appease the Pakistani's,we dont need ur stamp ,150 million Muslims only want rest of the India want-Kashmir is staying here






Jana said:


> .The Kashmiris think differently. They think their well being is only in their own country which is occupied by India.
> 
> Claiming IoK as part of India, this mulla is just serving his Indian masters not speaking for Kashmiri Muslims



So in ur consideration a Muslim should serve his religion first before serving his nation,that work fine in ur country,not here


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## KS

Jana said:


> Sorry he is NOT speaking for Kashmiri Muslims because Kashmiris do not consider Indian Occupation ligitimate and that is why Indian Occupying forces are there to curb Kashmiris since many decades.



Of course he is speaking since Muslim brotherhood has given him this right.He can speak for all the Muslims in the world,which he seems fit.

Either he cannot speak because he cannot interfere in the matters of Kashmir (and so do Pakistanis) or he has the right to speak for them just like many Pakistani posters who claim Ummah.

Pick your choice.



Jana said:


> 2. Neither This one Mulla is echoing the voice of 150 million Indian Muslims Because these 150 Million Muslims have NO voice even for themselves. The proofs of it are many just to cite ONE that is recent Pro-Hindu verdict by dominating Hindu Court of India.



Lol...please read the judgement and the legal basis on which it was given and then come to argue.I l be waiting till then.



Jana said:


> The Kashmiris think differently. They think their well being is only in their own country which is occupied by India.
> 
> Claiming IoK as part of India, this mulla is *just serving his Indian masters not speaking for Kashmiri Muslims*



Can we say the same for Mr.Geelani and his appeasement for his masters in Islamabad/Rawalpindi .?

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## Pride

Areesh said:


> Yeah right since it being hypocrite supports your POV than it is supporting the truth and if says something otherwise, it would be Islamic Mullahs or extremists. Lollzzz. Looks like you have been swept away by irrational nationalism and have resorted to hypocrisy for justifying your occupation of Kashmir.



Talking sensible is not that much difficult.. try atleast sometimes..

Truth is what it is, whomsoever says doesn't matter. Go to your Holy Books and come up with an explanation where Islam suggest to create a separate nation for Islam. Untill then you are hypocrite not me and also go ahead and answer those qns which I posted in earlier post..


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## xenia

Pride said:


> Talking sensible is not that much difficult.. try atleast sometimes..
> 
> Truth is what it is, whomsoever says doesn't matter. Go to your Holy Books and come up with an explanation where Islam suggest to create a separate nation for Islam. Untill then you are hypocrite not me and also go ahead and answer those qns which I posted in earlier post..


 here u come up with your interpretation of islam..n tell us where islam prohibits creation of a new state??


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## Areesh

Pride said:


> Talking sensible is not that much difficult.. try atleast sometimes..
> 
> Truth is what it is, whomsoever says doesn't matter. Go to your Holy Books and come up with an explanation where Islam suggest to create a separate nation for Islam. Untill then you are hypocrite not me and also go ahead and answer those qns which I posted in earlier post..



Don't you think you are making a mockery out of yourself by doing selective cherry picking from the deoband's statements and fatwas. As you said talking sensible is not that much difficult but you have to realize first that you aren't talking sensible. You have to realize the later part.

And you aren't even a Muslim and trying to challenge me to proof something about struggle for Pakistan from Islam. What a joke?? Looks like you doesn't seem serious here. We aren't talking about Pakistan's struggle and existence here. 



> Untill then you are hypocrite not me and also go ahead and answer those qns which I posted in earlier post..



As I said you aren't serious here and above lines are enough to prove it. Post on topic and don't derail the thread. And also please refrain from cherry picking. It only proves you are a hypocrite.


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## BTG

I would like to get a reply from Omar (or) any other member for my questions given here


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## Omar1984

Pride said:


> Talking sensible is not that much difficult.. try atleast sometimes..
> 
> Truth is what it is, whomsoever says doesn't matter. Go to your Holy Books and come up with an explanation where Islam suggest to create a separate nation for Islam. Untill then you are hypocrite not me and also go ahead and answer those qns which I posted in earlier post..



Theres no where in the Holy Quran that suggests its wrong to create a separate nation for Muslims and Islam.

Pakistan was meant to be a separate Majority Muslim nation not an Islamic Republic.

The Muslims of northern parts of the subcontinent didnt want to live under the rule of hindus who despised Muslims. 

And during the 1940s there were many communal tensions between Muslims and hindus especially in the northern parts of the subcontinent we were not gonna let those same hindus rule over us.

Even now if you put all the Muslim populations of Pakistan, Bangladesh, and india together it will still be less than the hindu population in india.

We see the real face of hindu indians in 1947, 1984, 1992, 2002, 2008, and even today:


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## Pride

xenia said:


> lol n what abt their recent verdict that muslim women's earnings are haram..why was there so much hue n cry..i know thats off topic but shows the cherry picking approach of india..n the cherry was big one this time..



If this makes you happy then add singing Vande Matram Unislamic as well.

Point is they literally convey the same what is written in religious books whether your case or my case. If you dont agree then close your country's seminaries associated to Deoband.


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## Pride

xenia said:


> here u come up with your interpretation of islam..n tell us where islam prohibits creation of a new state??



In his famous Allahabad address in 1930 Sir Muhammad Iqbal stated, Islam does not bifurcate the unity of man into an irreconcilable duality of spirit and matter. In Islam, God and the universe, spirit and matter, church and state, are organic to each other. 

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Do you disagree with your nation carving leader or you have some other definitions??


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## Areesh

@Pride

Sorry dear but I think it is important to tell you that you seriously look misguided and confused on this thread and don't know what to say and what not to say.... You aren't even realizing that you are contradicting yourself in your posts. Pleas stop this immature rant. Thanks.

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## Omar1984

Pride said:


> In his famous Allahabad address in 1930 Sir Muhammad Iqbal stated, &#8220;Islam does not bifurcate the unity of man into an irreconcilable duality of spirit and matter. In Islam, God and the universe, spirit and matter, church and state, are organic to each other.&#8221;
> 
> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
> 
> Do you disagree with your nation carving leader or you have some other definitions??



Iqbal was a philosopher and a poet.

Theres no where in the Holy Quran where it states its wrong to create a nation for Muslims and Islam.


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## brahmastra

MasktheTruth, oopss... MarktheTruth on its mission again.

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## booo

masksthetruth again...

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## Areesh

> SRINAGAR: *Separatist leaders in Jammu and Kashmir have rejected suggestions from Indian clerics that the Kashmir dispute needs to be resolved within the ambit of the Indian constitution.*
> 
> Even as they hailed Indian Muslim leaders for criticising the security forces for high-handedness and killings, the separatist leaders have asked the clerics not to get involved in Kashmir's 'freedom struggle'.
> 
> The remarks came a day after the Darul Uloom Deoband and the Jamiat-e-Ulema-e-Hind (JUH) sought the axing of the draconian Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) in Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> But they insisted that Jammu and Kashmir, India's only Muslim majority state, was an integral part of India and that the demands of the Kashmiris should be addressed within the framework of the Indian constitution.
> 
> The Darul Uloom Deoband is the spiritual headquarters of Sunni Islam while the Jamiat is its influential social front.
> 
> 'I salute the concern shown by Indian Muslims against the excesses committed on the freedom-seeking people of Kashmir,' Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front ( JKLF) chairman Muhammad Yasin Malik told IANS.
> 
> 'At the same time, I would appeal to the Indian Muslims not to offer solutions to the political issue of Kashmir,' he said. 'I fully understand their limitations in this regard.'
> 
> Mirwaiz Umer Farooq, chairman of the moderate Hurriyat group, said: 'Indian Muslims are faced with limitations of their own. Still, they have raised their voice against atrocities, excesses and the AFSPA.
> *
> 'We welcome this. Yet we do not expect they can afford to get actively involved in our freedom movement. They have spoken of a solution within the Indian constitution which is not in conformity with our stand.'*
> 
> Mirwaiz Umer said the separatist leaders would soon launch a campaign in India to dispel the impression that whatever is happening in Jammu and Kashmir is at the behest of Pakistan.
> 
> The common Kashmiris have welcomed the Darul Uloom's and Jamiat's criticism of the excesses by Indian security forces, who are accused of killing more than 100 civilians in street protests in the Kashmir Valley since June.
> 
> 'It (JUH) has understood our pain and sufferings which is definitely going to act as a balm on our bruised wounds,' said Muzaffar Ahmad, a college teacher here.
> 
> 'It is for the first time the Muslims in India have spoken so forcefully about our problems,' said Master Habibullah, 65, a retired school teacher.
> 
> Indian Muslims have traditionally kept a safe distance from the dragging separatist campaign in Jammu and Kashmir that has left thousands dead since 1989. But many Indian Muslim leaders have denounced the killing of innocents in Kashmir.
> 
> India, home to the world's second largest Muslim population after Indonesia, accuses Pakistan of backing the Kashmir insurgency with weapons and money. Islamabad says it only gives political and moral support.



We don't need your advice, Indian clerics told

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## MYSTIC

The separatist movement has a direct impact to the muslim in the rest of the country.


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## Spring Onion

MYSTIC said:


> The separatist movement has a direct impact to the muslim in the rest of the country.



Lolzzz There is NO Impact in India due to Kashmir struggle in their own country against Indian occupation.

The Kashmiri struggle has never crossed over to India. The day Kashmiris have decided to opt for exploding bombs and suicide attacks inside India then it will be altogether another situation.


Your Indian advocates are speaking Indian language and Kashmiris do not agree with any Indian


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## Aslan

MYSTIC said:


> The separatist movement has a direct impact to the muslim in the rest of the country.



Oh really, the last time I heard that line what that Pakistans actions have a direct impact on the Muslims of the rest of india. 





It was needed.
When are you guys gona stop crying about it. Stand up be a man and accept that you guys treat them like sh!t any ways the only difference is that you get to hid behind the big curtain of cr@p.


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## greatsequence

MYSTIC said:


> The separatist movement has a direct impact to the muslim in the rest of the country.



I fully agree and that is exactly why they have to play safe. They know that if kashmiries get their freedom they will be the most to suffer from the hands of Hindus.


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## MYSTIC

Jana said:


> Lolzzz There is NO Impact in India due to Kashmir struggle in their own country against Indian occupation.
> 
> The Kashmiri struggle has never crossed over to India. The day Kashmiris have decided to opt for exploding bombs and suicide attacks inside India then it will be altogether another situation.
> 
> 
> Your Indian advocates are speaking Indian language and Kashmiris do not agree with any Indian



And terrorist activities led by LeT is for which cause? Peaceful non-violent muslims have to take the blame for all this.

Its like saying muslims in US have no say about 9/11. Ofcourse they do. They have to live in the country and do not want the separatist ruin their peaceful lives.


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## Sinnerman108

Huh Same Indian clerics, Ulema-e-Hind 
they couldn't get any thing right ever, and now they are going to play 
with the Hindustani establishment to ruin the Kashmiri Struggle.

What a shame !


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## MYSTIC

greatsequence said:


> I fully agree and that is exactly why they have to play safe. They know that if kashmiries get their freedom they will be the most to suffer from the hands of Hindus.



Of course. The hindus in my country will feel threatened. The tension might turn into a large scale riot. Far worse than the one during partition.

Anyways the future of Kashmir is in India's hands. Neither Pakistan nor Kashmiris can do anything about it. The international community will nod with whatever decision India takes. Might as well let there be peace in Kashmir, let the government withdraw the CRPF forces and than handle the Kashmir issue.


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## Aslan

MYSTIC said:


> Of course. The hindus in my country will feel threatened. The tension might turn into a large scale riot. Far worse than the one during partition.




So if your country cant handle the truth and many more will have to suffer because Kashmir freedom, then ur nation dont even deserve to be called that a nation or does it deserve to exist as one. 
As you are treating a certain minority on the basis of their religious believes. And what ever their co religionist do in other places do effect their survival.


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## MYSTIC

khalidali said:


> So if your country cant handle the truth and many more will have to suffer because Kashmir freedom, then ur nation dont even deserve to be called that a nation or does it deserve to exist as one.
> As you are treating a certain minority on the basis of their religious believes. And what ever their co religionist do in other places do effect their survival.




Sorry but I didn't understand a thing you said...

Lives of muslims around the world has become difficult because of 9/11. Same goes for muslims when a LeT blows up and train or a bus in India. It makes life difficult for them. Not good for communal harmony. Therefore, they have say in Kashmir.


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## graphican

doctor_who said:


> *no wonder dear,
> 
> kashmiri movement itself is forced and violent movement. these people with gun-- be it let or hijbul or what ever .......... india is just giving them suitable answer. and whole country support the cause. *



We hope not! You realize when Mahatma Gandhi was fighting for freedom, that wasn't meant to be freedom for Hindus from England alone. I hope same philosophy that let creation of Pakistan makes Kashmir Liberated!


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## unicorn148

Mahatma Gandhi was fighting for the independence of a united India (for every religion that existed in India)

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## unicorn148

when Pakistan was made it was not decided that Kashmir has to be part of it and we didn't took it by force it was the ruler of J&k who wanted to join India and from then it became of part of India and the citizens of j&k became Indians and will remain for ever what ever outside pressure may come in

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## Tuahaa

unicorn148 said:


> when Pakistan was made it was not decided that Kashmir has to be part of it and we didn't took it by force it was the ruler of J&k who wanted to join India and from then it became of part of India and the citizens of j&k became Indians and will remain for ever what ever outside pressure may come in



Then why did the opposite happen with Junagadh?


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## unicorn148

what does junagadh to do with J&k
during the annexation of J&k by the Pakistan the king of J&k has sought the help of India until then India has not interfered in the matters of j&k .when the king sought help India has send its forces to defend the king and his territory and after the war the king has made the decision to join India


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## Leonidas

graphican said:


> We hope not!


You don't have an option.



graphican said:


> You realize when Mahatma Gandhi was fighting for freedom, that wasn't meant to be freedom for Hindus from *England* alone.


First things first, it was Britain that colonized us & not just England. It includes Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland too. I hope it was just a mistake on your part.

Second, Mahatma Gandhi didn't fight for Hindus alone but he fought also for muslims, christians, sikhs, buddhists, jains, parsis, etc. He fought for India, the same land which is under your feet as well. 



graphican said:


> I hope same philosophy that let creation of Pakistan makes Kashmir Liberated!



Nope. Creation of countries on the basis of religion have only caused more trouble to its people. It has never been a successful idea & there are many examples in this world to prove it.

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## unicorn148

we have done that because Pakistan is a Islamic nation unlike India where every religion is treaded the same so junagadh was taken into India to prevent the communal riots because junagadh was entirely Hindus


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## Perceptron

Mark the Bullshit again !!!!!!

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Why are people discussing on an article from an unreliable source?

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## usmangujjar

Infact on the contarary the nation was made to safe guard the rights of muslims in india who had realized that the congress when it came to power for a short tenure of 4 yrs was highly biased to the rights of the muslim population.all other islamic countires have been formed on the principles of race.whereas islam has clearly stated that their is no race all have been united under the banner of islam.So to say pakistan was the very first ideological islamic state.the other ideological state that exists in the world in israel.the only difference being that they lay claim to a land that they proposed belonged to them and that they had a birth right to that place.On the same principle we could also lay claim to the whole of india which was under the mughal empire for a considerable period of time.Yet we only ask for the muslim majority areas to be merged with pakistan.
coming to these maulvis ,well its an open fact they opposed the creation of pakistan.They had realized that they would never be able to establish their hegemony in pakistan.hence they opted for india.yet i see them confused on vande matram and so many other issues.Those who believe in the ideology of iqbal and muslim unity will always support pakistan.and those who have failed to understand their religion and consider it to consist of mere rituals will never know where they belong.and they will never get respect from the world.


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## WHF

r3alist said:


> i think its personally very introspective for indians to start thinking along these lines.
> 
> at the end of the day you guys are all aware of the ground situation, i mean the innate reality of the situation will "out" it self at some point into the mass indian conscience
> 
> you guys are all aware of the lessons of imperialism - well its india who have become the neo-imperialists so have a good think about these misadventures turn out.
> 
> violence begets violence, hatred begets hatred and the passion for freedom is still as strong as ever amongst the people of IOK.
> 
> would it not be wise to think more pragmatically?




Dude we indian's gave a deep deep thought, on why without our fault we were massacared in the name of religion first by muslims and then by christians.

We always welcomed the stranger with open hearts and we bled to dearth,what was our fault??

PPl in pakistan take gr8 pride that we muslims ruled the hindus under our boots for over 1000 years and now when the things are different u guys cry mercy before the world ??

What happened to the great pakistani muslim martial race??why dont u have faith in god and try to take away what u beleive is yours??Why do u cry before the UN and world media??

AFA we are concerned We have made a resolution *fight till the last man is alive, be it the lone brave soilder or the coward enemy*

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## Jackdaws

WHF said:


> Dude we indian's gave a deep deep thought, on why without our fault we were massacared in the name of religion first by muslims and then by christians.
> 
> We always welcomed the stranger with open hearts and we bled to dearth,what was our fault??
> 
> PPl in pakistan take gr8 pride that we muslims ruled the hindus under our boots for over 1000 years and now when the things are different u guys cry mercy before the world ??
> 
> What happened to the great pakistani muslim martial race??why dont u have faith in god and try to take away what u beleive is yours??Why do u cry before the UN and world media??
> 
> AFA we are concerned We have made a resolution *fight till the last man is alive, be it the lone brave soilder or the coward enemy*



Simply because many Pakistanis blow the bugle "1000 years of Muslim rule over Hindus" does not make it true. A large chunk of North India was ruled by the Mughals for maybe 300 years. People who have come to India have generally integrated well because we let people be - be they the Parsis, the Iranis, the Baghdadi Jews or the Tibetans.


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## BS_Buster

kashmir sovereign state not possible because by definition they are indians. 



*The Indian valley of Kashmir is named after Rishi Kashyapa.The Nilamata Purana describes the Valley&#8217;s origin from the waters; &#2325;&#2366; Ka (&#8220;water&#8221 + &#2358;&#2367;&#2350;&#2367;&#2352;&#2367; Shimir (&#8220;to desiccate&#8221, hence, Kaashmir denotes &#8220;a land desiccated from water&#8221;. (The fact of Himaalaya (and the general region thereof) being raised out of ocean is known to science and hence the rest of the world only now, but was for ever known in India, and is part of Hindu legends, as the story about churning of oceans.)

An alternate nominal origin theory proposes that Kaashmir is a contraction of either Kashyap-mira or Kashyapmir or Kashyapmeru, denoting the &#8220;sea of Kashyapa&#8221; and the &#8220;mountain of Kashyapa&#8221;, eponyms of Kashyapa, the sageKashyapa credited with having drained the primordial Satisar lake that occupied the Kaashmir valley before he reclaimed it from the water. Considering the Valley an embodiment of the goddess Uma, the Nilamata Purana gives it the place-name Kaashmira, from which derives the contemporary Kashmir place-name. Nonetheless, the Kaashmiris colloquially use the place-name Kashir, which is phonetically derived from Kaashmir, as noted in the Aurel Stein introduction to the Rajatarangini metrical chronicle.

In the Rajatarangini, a history of Kashmir written by Kalhana in the 12th century, it is stated that the valley of Kaashmir was formerly a lake. This was drained by the great rishi or sage, Kashyapa, son of Marichi, son of Brahma, by cutting the gap in the hills at Baramulla (Varaha-mula). Cashmere is a variant spelling of Kaashmir.[9]*


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## S_O_C_O_M

*India seals off Kashmir to fend off fresh protest​*
Published on Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 15:52 

Police on Tuesday sealed off residential areas and reimposed a round-the-clock curfew in the Kashmir valley to pre-empt the first anti-India rally since authorities announced concessions to end violent protests.

A new protest with a wide following would have been interpreted as a setback for New Delhi's peace initiative launched three weeks ago and obliged the government to pursue other ways to deal with the unrest in the disputed region.


The hardline separatist leader in majority-Muslim Kashmir called on residents to defy the curfew and go into the streets.

Thousands of police and soldiers in riot gear patrolled deserted streets and told residents through loudspeakers to stay indoors.

"Authorities have decided to impose valley-wide strict curfew restrictions," a police statement said. "There are no reports of any untoward incident from anywhere so far."

At least 110 people have been killed since June, mostly by police bullets. The protests are the biggest since an armed revolt 1989 against Indian rule in the Himalayan region, which both India and Pakistan claim in full but rule in parts.

The recent wave of protests in Indian Kashmir subsided after New Delhi relaxed security in Srinagar, the summer capital, freed some 50 protesters, announced compensation for families of the dead and offered to talk to all political groups.

But many Kashmiris dismiss the offer as inadequate and hardline separatists said they would press on with protests. 

Opinion surveys show a large majority of Kashmiris favour independence from the region from both India and Pakistan.

Over the past four months, the Kashmir valley has been in a siege-like state of strikes, protests and curfews. Shops have remained shut, along with most schools, and daily activities are subject to severe disruption.

Tuesday's rally had been called by Syed Ali Shah Geelani, a hardliner who has emerged as the leading figure in anti-Indian protests.

"In this situation, we have only two options: either surrender before Indian bullying, or uphold the sanctity of our sacrifices and struggle on till we achieve our goal," he said in a statement.

Tens of thousands have been killed in Kashmir since simmering discontent against Indian rule turned into a full-blown rebellion over two-decades ago.

India and Pakistan have fought two of their three wars since partition and independence in 1947 over the region.

India seals off Kashmir to fend off fresh protest - Reuters -


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Pakistani women hold anti-India rally​*





Female activists hold anti-India protest in Islamabad on Monday

Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:4AM

*Hundreds of Pakistani women have taken to the streets of Islamabad to protest against the ongoing violent police measures in Indian-administrated Kashmir. *

"This gathering was just to show the world that we are Muslim and we are not terrorists, but we want Kashmir to be a part of Pakistan," a protester told Press TV. 

Addressing the gathering on Monday, the speakers said that the Indian government can't suppress freedom movement in Kashmir by using force against the people. 

"India has refused to implement the UN resolutions on Kashmir for the last 60 years. The international community and powerful countries are not ready to give the Kashmiris the right of self determination," said Syed Bilal, a member of Jamaat-e-Islami party. 

Female activists of the party, wearing ribbons on their heads with a slogan against India, took part in the protest rally. 

The Indian-administrated region has been hit by a wave of protests since June 11, when a 17-year old student was killed by a police teargas shell. 

Since then, at least 110 people, mostly teenagers and students, have been killed by Indian security forces. 

Kashmir is partially controlled by Pakistan and India though both countries have laid claims on the entire territory. This was the leading reason for two of the three wars between the two neighbors since gaining independence from Britain more than half a century ago. 

Independence-seeking Kashmiris have fought for over 20 years against Delhi's rule in Indian-controlled Kashmir. They demand a referendum to determine the future of Kashmir themselves. 

PressTV - Pakistani women hold anti-India rally

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## Spring Onion

RobbieS said:


> Even the women are brain-washed.



Oh yeah thats why Kashmiri women came on roads with stones in hands to brave bullets fired by Indian terrorist army in occupied kashmir

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## Hulk

Excatly half of them do not know what is happening. Even things like CRPF men demolishing their picket is termed as Indian Army destroying Kashmiri home. They are constantly fed wrong information to make sure anti India feeling is cultivated.

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## T-Faz

RobbieS said:


> Even the women are brain-washed.



Don't you have anything better to contribute than generalise everyone and flame the thread with your pointless one liner.

Take a break and I hope you can debate properly when you come back.

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## Hulk

Jana said:


> Oh yeah thats why Kashmiri women came on roads with stones in hands to brave bullets fired by Indian terrorist army in occupied kashmir



Thats a different story, looking at their histroy they seems to have passion for protest. They use to protest before 1947 also. I feel it has more to do with mentality of people otherwise any sane person will not protest on accidental death caused by tear gas shell right?

If the situation in Kashmir is so bad then why like East Pakistan there is no migration at all. Also the same Kashmir has Jammu and Leh as well why their is only protest in valley? When others can love without peace so can people of valley too.

The fact is that they face these conditions due to their indulgence in militancy and anti national activities and not the other way round, which is proved by other areas having no such issue.

Also proved by no such issue before 1989, which means these started only after militancy, so it is fallout of militancy.

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## somebozo

> 2) Why NWFP is with Pakistan where political elected leader Mr Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan wants to join India?


Because it has not adjoining border with India and Mr Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan wasnt that popular enough either. Why is Junagarth with india which asked to join Pakistan??


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## ambidex

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *India is trying to Crush Kashmiri movement by force ​*
> TopNews
> Written by KMS
> Monday, 11 October 2010 13:13
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Srinagar, October 11, 2010: APHC chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, has said that India is trying to crush the Kashmiris struggle through use of brute force ahead of the US President, Barrack Obamas visit to India.
> 
> Syed Ali Shah Geelani, in a statement issued in Srinagar, termed the attempt by the occupation authorities to quell the ongoing "Quite Kashmir Movement" forcefully as an effort to hoodwink the international community about the situation in the occupied territory.
> 
> He asked the people of Kashmir to keep united among their ranks to foil nefarious designs of the authorities to harm the movement. Peace and stability in South Asia cannot prevail till the resolution of Kashmir dispute, he added.
> 
> Appealing the people to make protest programme, announced by him as a part of "Quit Kashmir Movement", a success, Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that Kashmiris would continue their struggle for right of Self-Determination till its logical end. He said that if the puppet Chief Minister, Umar Abdullah, was sincere to his words then he should resign and join the pro-freedom camp.
> 
> 
> Felicitating the Hajj aspirants, Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that they should say special prayers for success of the liberation movement in Occupied State of Jammu and Kashmir (OSJK).
> 
> Sacrifices of the Kashmiri people have centre-staged the Kashmir dispute. International community understands that Kashmiris movement is an indigenous freedom struggle against Indian occupation, he maintained.
> 
> The APHC leader, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has expressed serious concern over the miserable plight of the illegally detained Kashmiris in various jails. In a statement issued in Srinagar he said, The detainees are being treated inhumanely. They have been even denied medical care and their relatives are not allowed to meet them regularly. He maintained that Kashmiris liberation struggle had been recognized at the international level and there was no justification in mistreating the pro-freedom leadership and Kashmiris in the jails. He appealed to the international human rights organizations to take cognizance of the matter.
> 
> Mirwaiz strongly denounced the restrictions imposed by the occupation authorities on Sunday to thwart an indoor session to mark the Prisoners Day. I want to maintain that we had not to stage protests or take out procession but only organize a session to pay tributes to the prisoners. Putting curbs on our symbolic and peaceful programs clearly shows authorities frustration, he added.
> 
> Umar Farooq pointed out that after the Lal Chowk march on Eid-ul-Fitr, the puppet administration had left no stone unturned to quell peaceful protests in the territory. He deplored that the present regime was helpless and had now confined to only curfews, restrictions, crackdowns and putting leaders under house arrest.
> 
> 
> Senior Hurriyet leader and the Vice Chairman of Jammu and Kashmir Muslim League, Masarrat Aalam Butt, has said that the people of Kashmir will continue their just liberation struggle till its logical conclusion. Masarrat Aalam Butt in a statement issued in Srinagar appealed the people to take part in Hyderpora March in large numbers on Tuesday to free Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who is under illegal house arrest since Eid.
> 
> He warned the occupation authorities of massive agitation if they did not stop their oppressive tactics in the territory. Masarrat Aalam Butt said that the use of force could not deter Kashmiris resolve to get freedom from Indian bondage.
> 
> Calling India an uncivilized nation that had been enslaving Kashmiris for the past 63 years, he said that the occupation authorities were trying to suppress the liberation struggle through use of brute force.
> 
> The authorities have booked four persons under the black law, Public Safety Act (PSA) in Shopian district for participating in recent anti-India demonstrations. Four persons had been booked under Indian laws in the district. Those who have been booked under the Indian black laws include Mufti Wajib, Farooq Ahmed, Ayaz Ahmed and Shiraz. They have been lodged in Kathua jail.
> 
> A nine-month-old baby was critically injured after Indian troops beat him up in south Kashmirs Islamabad town. Eyewitnesses told mediamen that Indian forces without any provocation barged into the house of Manzoor Ahmad Bhat, proprietor Manzoor Fabrics, in Khanabal and beat up all the inmates including women and children. They said that a nine-month-old baby, Asrar Manzoor, was critically injured as he was also hit with batons in his head while he was in his mothers lap. Asrar was shifted to the district hospital, Islamabad.
> 
> 
> The witnesses stated that Asrars seven-year-old brother, Arsalan Manzoor, also sustained grievous injuries after he was beaten ruthlessly by the troops.
> 
> People took to the streets in many areas of the town in protest against the incident. Indian police and troops used brute force to disperse the protesters injuring several persons.
> 
> Anti-India demonstrations were staged in Bemina, Chattabal, Batamaloo, Saida Kadal, Rainawari, Rajouri Kadal, Gojwara, Nund Reshi Colony, Nowpora, Khanyar, Pampore, Shopian, Pulwama, Kulgam, Sopore, Handwara and Baramulla areas. The occupation forces resorted to heavy baton charge and excessive teargas shelling to break up the demonstrations at many places. A civilian, Waseem Akbar Lone, resident of Chankhan in Sopore, was critically injured in the police action. He was shifted to sub-district hospital Sopore where from doctors referred him to Soura hospital in Srinagar. A youth was hit on his head by a teargas shell fired by the police in Baramulla. He was rushed to SHMS hospital where his condition was stated to be critical.
> 
> In Srinagar, Indian forces entered into many residential areas, damaged several vehicles, smashed windowpanes of residential houses and ransacked household goods.
> 
> India is trying to Crush Kashmiri movement by force


 
Another trash article by a Pakistani media web site.
The Author do not have the decency to write his name or credentials.

and 

to the thread starter: 

Do you have guts to make sad/angry faces on 8000 Baloch Gone Missing and Disappearance of a large number of Baloch women since 2005.

Balochistan: Behind an Iron Curtain - South Asia Intelligence Review

http://www.un.org/News/ossg/hilites/hilites_arch_view.asp?HighID=1285



> Asked about reports concerning the disappearance and **** of men and women in the province of Balochistan, the Spokeswoman said that the Secretary-General was aware of the reports.


 
Pakistan and Pakistanis are well known for the force they are using to curb their own Muslims population.

Preach what you practice.

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## DGMO

S_O_C_O_M said:


> "but we want Kashmir to be a part of Pakistan,"


And I want a beachfront property in the Bahamas, but then I also have to be realistic and see if it's possible. The answer (sadly) is no.

To Indian members, before you indulge in giving this credence and this spirals into a flame war, please note that this is a 'hundred or so' in a country of 170million.

The people of Pakistan have bigger fish to fry than Kashmir at the moment. It doesn't mean that we don't care about their suffering, but we have too many problems for Kashmir to figure at the top of the list.

Press TV may have given this some coverage, but I can assure you that this isn't the main news on Pakistani channels. 

It's their right to protest, but we all know the impact is zero. If they protested about the alleged stoning of that woman in Orakzai recently, it would be time better served IMO.

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## Hulk

T-Faz said:


> Don't you have anything better to contribute than generalise everyone and flame the thread with your pointless one liner.
> 
> Take a break and I hope you can debate properly when you come back.



Sorry T-Faz but brain washing plays important contribution in all this, is it not true that many incidence where Army is not even involved is blamed on Army.

Do you know that in all the incidences happened after June army was not at all involved but it is blamed on Army.

There are countless times when J&K police does something but blamed on Army.

My point being how many times it is incorrectly blamed on Army and this is done deliberatly to misguide common man and arose anti India feelings.

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## Hulk

Frankenstein said:


> everyone knows knows whats goin on in Kashmir, what the hell are you smoking??



Everyone knows what has been fed. Just few days back someone posted a picture where CRPF was destroying its own picket as Indian atrocity. This shows how much people know.

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## T-Faz

indianrabbit said:


> Sorry T-Faz but brain washing plays important contribution in all this, is it not true that many incidence where Army is not even involved is blamed on Army.
> 
> Do you know that in all the incidences happened after June army was not at all involved but it is blamed on Army.
> 
> There are countless times when J&K police does something but blamed on Army.
> 
> My point being how many times it is incorrectly blamed on Army and this is done deliberatly to misguide common man and arose anti India feelings.



It is completely stupendous to link an unrelated matter with the article in question. First of all, the article does not mention army even once throughout it's breadth so why bring that into this discussion and derail it. 

Secondly, you are assuming that all the women from a minuscule percent represents the mindset of all women in Pakistan. Majority do not even care and the women depicted in these pictures are clearly from some Islamic group.

I can clearly state that Indians are brainwashed into thinking that all pakistani's are brainwashed but I know better and I can think rationally when I am commenting on an issue.


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## Spring Onion

indianrabbit said:


> Excatly half of them do not know what is happening. Even things like CRPF men demolishing their picket is termed as Indian Army destroying Kashmiri home. They are constantly fed wrong information to make sure anti India feeling is cultivated.



If my countrymen are on salary of TTP there is NO difference for me between them and the terrorists. similarly who's orders are CRPF people acting upon other than Occupier Indian Army and Occupier Indian Govt.


There is NO wrong information. The bullets from Indian terrorist army in Kashmir and their hired puppet CRPF are killing Kashmiris alike and this day light murder of Kashmiris is a clear loud fact which is has brought Kashmir Struggle to a New intifada where Women Children and Youth have made it to streets and roads in protest.

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## Spring Onion

indianrabbit said:


> Thats a different story, looking at their histroy they seems to have passion for protest. They use to protest before 1947 also. I feel it has more to do with mentality of people otherwise any sane person will not protest on accidental death caused by tear gas shell right?
> 
> If the situation in Kashmir is so bad then why like East Pakistan there is no migration at all. Also the same Kashmir has Jammu and Leh as well why their is only protest in valley? When others can love without peace so can people of valley too.
> 
> The fact is that they face these conditions due to their indulgence in militancy and anti national activities and not the other way round, which is proved by other areas having no such issue.
> 
> Also proved by no such issue before 1989, which means these started only after militancy, so it is fallout of militancy.




The biggest lie ever. Thousands of Kashmiris have been killed since decades. The mass graves are not due to accidental death. Just in one month Indian terrorist army has killed over three dozen Kashmiris.

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## Hulk

T-Faz said:


> It is completely stupendous to link an unrelated matter with the article in question. First of all, the article does not mention army even once throughout it's breadth so why bring that into this discussion and derail it.
> 
> Secondly, you are assuming that all the women from a minuscule percent represents the mindset of all women in Pakistan. Majority do not even care and the women depicted in these pictures are clearly from some Islamic group.
> 
> I can clearly state that Indians are brainwashed into thinking that all pakistani's are brainwashed but I know better and I can think rationally when I am commenting on an issue.



I never mentioned that all Pakistani's are brainwashed but I think you will agree that both sides do twist the information to suit their needs.

I am positive that these women have no first hand information and are just following someone's script.

What will happen when a group of people are fed propoganda material and they have no idea on things on the ground. That is my point.

Also lot of incorrect information floating on web and posted on this forum as well. People reading them does not care if the information is correct.

To point out one single thing.
Ask members here and they will tell you that women are being raped in Kashmir day in day out by Indian Army.

Fact is between 2009 and 2010 this count stands ZERO.
One of the member (Elite) of this forum use to say this every place and I asked for number of women being raped recently. 

Now does this not proof that people who talk about Kashmir has no idea.

I am all for discussion on facts but creating emotions on distorted facts will help no one.


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## Patrician

self-delete


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## Trisonics

Jana said:


> A foot in mouth statement keeping in view the plight of women in "democratic" India.[/QUOTE
> 
> Good to know women in an Islamic republic are treated better but sorry our women will never want to be there but anyway on topic, this is expected, in fact as Obama's visit is coming closer we will see Pakistan try to pull everything out of its bag ..Take my word you will see a larger "Organized" protest in Kashmir.
> 
> No offense, Kashmir in every right is your issue as ours..so go ahead and protest, but why forget some more immediate and pressing issues?


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## Spring Onion

Trisonics said:


> Good to know women in an Islamic republic are treated better but sorry our women will never want to be there but anyway on topic,




That was in reply to Indian rants. neither we want any Indian. so come back to the topic 



> this is expected, in fact as Obama's visit is coming closer we will see Pakistan try to pull everything out of its bag ..Take my word you will see a larger "Organized" protest in Kashmir.



Obama is not coming to Pakistan. Indian state terrorism is not linked to Obama's visit. This Indian terrorism is going for last many decades.

Just yesterday India put Curfew in the valley and put the Kashmiri leaders behind bars once again. One wonders for how long you are going to apply these sissy tactics.




> No offense, Kashmir in every right is your issue as ours..so go ahead and protest, but why forget some more immediate and pressing issues?




Pressing issues does not mean we should support killing of Kashmiris by Indian army

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## Spring Onion

Undivided Kashmir said:


> *We dont give a rats azz *to the paid demonstrations that too in pakistan.
> 
> After demonstrations let them also do some stone throwing and destruction of public and private property aswell that will suit the mob.



Neither the protesters care about rats azz giving. They are playing their role by raising voice against the tyrants.

and oh so much so for your rant of paid demonstration that Your Indian terrorist govt every now and then has to put curfew in the IoK due to these uprising of civilians against Indian terrorism and occupation

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## Tuahaa

Stop, Jana! It is all the work of the PIH!!! lololol, etc, etc...



> The whole protests in Kashmir are actually fake. Pakistan has somehow illegally acquired advanced holographic technology. Using this technology, Pakistan stages fake protests and records them on a special tape. Then, they send the recordings to PIH (Pakistan Institute of Holography) which projects the tape to Indian Administered Kashmir. This way, it seems that Kashmiris actually want independance! Hah! What a load of cunning devilry Pakistan has cooked up! We all know that the real Kashmiris are in their homes praying for India's success in killing the hundreds of fake holographic civilians!


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## Trisonics

Jana said:


> Obama is not coming to Pakistan. Indian state terrorism is not linked to Obama's visit. This Indian terrorism is going for last many decades.
> Just yesterday India put Curfew in the valley and put the Kashmiri leaders behind bars once again. *One wonders for how long you are going to apply these sissy tactics.*



Its been more than 60 years but anyway I completely like such protests, much better than the freedom fighter profile you guys use.
I for one completely disagree with the large presence of our forces.. but as for the tone of your argument, this will be another case of the chicken and the egg. 


Jana said:


> Pressing issues does not mean we should support killing of Kashmiris by Indian army



Not surprising at all if you know what I mean.


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## somebozo

Why so much fear against protest if India act soo confidently on the international front with its affirmations of Kashmir being integral part of India?? (in salees urdu "phattu hai yeh")M


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## SQ8

So much for claims of atoot ang.. atoot angs dont need to be shut off from the world to fix problems... this is more of a jhoot nang..Continuing brutal suppression of rights in Kashmir, jumping at any opportunity to defame Pakistan for what is a movement fueled more by a people's sentiments than cross border support.
Celebrating its status as the West's darling India has decided to deal with its problems with an Iron fist till the blind eye attitude lasts.No better than the Israeli's in Gaza.. Except the Israeli's arent two-faced about their policies. Their statements are concrete and uniform.. unlike a nation which has many faces for everyone at different times...none of them genuine.
As far as the Indian concept of reconciliation for Kashmiri's goes.. its the age old "Baghal mein Churi, moon pe raam raam"


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## karan.1970

somebozo said:


> Why so much fear against protest if India act soo confidently on the international front with its affirmations of Kashmir being integral part of India?? (in salees urdu "phattu hai yeh")



The same reason why Pakistan had to impose curfew in Karachi. To protect infrastructure and civilians not participating in protests

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## Spring Onion

somebozo said:


> Why so much fear against protest if India act soo confidently on the international front with its affirmations of Kashmir being integral part of India?? (in salees urdu "phattu hai yeh")



Just to stop voice of Kashmiris from reaching the world. Otherwise Indian Govt does not have guts to impose curfews in own troubled areas of own country.


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## karan.1970

santro said:


> So much for claims of atoot ang.. atoot angs dont need to be shut off from the world to fix problems... this is more of a jhoot nang..



hmm.. Isnt NWFP shut off at this time. Does this mean its not a inseparable part of Pakistan..

Bad logic..

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## Spring Onion

karan.1970 said:


> The same reason why Pakistan had to impose curfew in Karachi. To protect infrastructure and civilians not participating in protests



The Occupied Kashmir is under Curfew by Invader India almost 11 months a year. 


Tell me how many times India imposed curfew in own areas or to say even after Babri Mosque demolition ?? or during that period when fanatics were marching with weapons towards the mosque

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## karan.1970

Jana said:


> The Occupied Kashmir is under Curfew by Invader India almost 11 months a year.
> 
> 
> Tell me how many times India imposed curfew in own areas or to say even after Babri Mosque demolition ?? or during that period when fanatics were marching with weapons towards the mosque



For a journalist, your data is pretty flawed... Check on the curfew imposition in Kashmir in last 3 years...

There is no denying the fact that Kashmir has been a troubled part of India since Pakistan sponsored terrorism/freedom fight started in 1987. Tough situations required tough measures.. And you guys know this more than anyone...

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## Spring Onion

karan.1970 said:


> hmm.. Isnt NWFP shut off at this time. Does this mean its not a inseparable part of Pakistan..
> 
> Bad logic..



yeah and i am interacting with you sitting in Azad New Dehli 

for your knowledge there NO curfew in any part of NWFP aka KP at this time.

And hardly curfew is imposed in tribal areas when some military operation is starting.


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## karan.1970

So do you consider active military operations by Army assisted by Airforce that actually drops missiles and bombs on targets a better situation than a police enforced curfew?

Its like saying, I prefer surgery to diet control

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## Spring Onion

karan.1970 said:


> For a journalist, your data is pretty flawed... Check on the curfew imposition in Kashmir in last 3 years...
> 
> There is no denying the fact that Kashmir has been a troubled part of India since Pakistan sponsored terrorism/freedom fight started in 1987. Tough situations required tough measures.. And you guys know this more than anyone...



Kashmir is NOT part of India. Kashmir is country that is Troubled by India by invading it.

Kashmir struggle starts from the days of the tyrant Raja not 87. 


And for curfews you need to check the facts.

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## Spring Onion

karan.1970 said:


> So do you consider active military operations by Army assisted by Airforce that actually drops missiles and bombs on targets a better situation than a police enforced curfew?
> 
> Its like saying, I prefer surgery to diet control



Comparing hardcore al-qaeda terrorists with unarmed Kashmiris is only the Indian way.

Still in Occupied Kashmir your military carry on active operations NOT against al-qaeda but against Kashmiris.


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## karan.1970

Jana said:


> Kashmir is NOT part of India. Kashmir is country that is Troubled by India by invading it.
> 
> Kashmir struggle starts from the days of the tyrant Raja not 87.
> 
> 
> And for curfews you need to check the facts.



Thats your personal opinion (shared by most Pakistanis) but not rest of the world. Dont see Kashmir as a country in any lists except the ones pawned by fundmentalists in Pakistan

The only struggle that happened in 1947 was the illegal invasion by Pakistani terrorists that actually led the Maharaja to acceed to India.

I actually believe Pakistan made a blunder then. Had they not jumped the gun, Kashmir would have either merged with Paksitan or would have been still an independent nation.

But that's water under the bridge..

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## true_indian

Jana said:


> Comparing hardcore al-qaeda terrorists with unarmed Kashmiris is only the Indian way.
> 
> Still in Occupied Kashmir your military carry on active operations NOT against al-qaeda but against Kashmiris.



Get over it Jana. Kashmir is a part of India it's not going change anytime soon. All your talk and ranting isn't going change our stand. Stop sponsoring militants and entire Kashmir could live in Peace.


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## Leviza

they did coz indian army can kill as many innocent people as they want....


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## twoplustwoisfour

Jana said:


> Kashmir is NOT part of India. Kashmir is country that is Troubled by India by invading it.
> 
> Kashmir struggle starts from the days of the tyrant Raja not 87.
> 
> 
> And for curfews you need to check the facts.



don't go off topic with your rant...
11 months out of an year?? Seriously, where do you get such data?


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## karan.1970

Jana said:


> Comparing hardcore al-qaeda terrorists with unarmed Kashmiris is only the Indian way.
> 
> Still in Occupied Kashmir your military carry on active operations NOT against al-qaeda but against Kashmiris.



I am not comparing people, but the situation. Operations such as imposing curfew by police or the ones PA is engaging in, does not take the area away from the nation. 

What is al queda doing in Paksitan anyway..?? And since no foreign media is allowed in the war zone in KP, who is know whether its Al Quida or innocent Pakistanis that are being killed. We can wait for the results of the inquiry ordered by Kayani to get an answer to that. Though I dont know how impartial that would be..

And btw, the Army ops in Kashmir are killing the Pakistani freedom fighters who come into J&K looking for glorious martyerdom.

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## karan.1970

twoplustwoisfour said:


> nice try at a rant to save face.... But didn't work.
> 
> *11 months out of an year?? Seriously, where do you get such data?*



Places like MarkTheTruth and PakistanIdeology


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## IBRIS

Jana said:


> Kashmir is NOT part of India. Kashmir is country that is Troubled by India by invading it.
> 
> Kashmir struggle starts from the days of the tyrant Raja not 87.
> 
> 
> And for curfews you need to check the facts.

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## Camdor

T-Faz said:


> It is completely stupendous to link an unrelated matter with the article in question. First of all, the article does not mention army even once throughout it's breadth so why bring that into this discussion and derail it.
> 
> Secondly, you are assuming that all the women from a minuscule percent represents the mindset of all women in Pakistan. Majority do not even care and the women depicted in these pictures are clearly from some Islamic group.
> 
> I can clearly state that Indians are brainwashed into thinking that all pakistani's are brainwashed but I know better and I can think rationally when I am commenting on an issue.



so are you saying that you don not want Kashmir???


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## somebozo

and where is it?? (part highlighted in red)
Also the raja did not control the whole of disputed territory at the time of partition so how the heck he acceded something he did not govern?






Does a similar news cutting exists for Junagarth and Sikkim?


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## somebozo

finally they got to see some daylight!


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## naumananjum

*"India has refused to implement the UN resolutions on Kashmir for the last 60 years. *

The Indian-administrated region has been hit by a wave of protests since June 11, when a 17-year old student was killed by a police teargas shell. 
*Since then, at least 110 people, mostly teenagers and students, have been killed by Indian security forces. *
.
really sad situation


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## Abu Zolfiqar

it's only news when "hindustan times" reports it 



so much for "accession".........how much progress they made since then on occupied Kashmir 


i dont think hindustan will succeed in subjugating them (the Kashmiri people)

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## Spring Onion

There is a very nice thread already existing on this forum started by RoadRunner you can find all the truth about this "succession" "acceding" there.

All bhartis lies are busted there.


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## HAIDER

All happening because Obama is coming, plus Common Wealth game. India govt has imposed news blackout on Kashmir uprising.


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## gubbi

somebozo said:


> and where is it?? (part highlighted in red)
> Also the raja *did not control the whole of disputed territory at the time* of partition so how the heck he acceded something he did not govern?



That was because Pakistan decided to send in militants and its regulars dressed as militants to apparently "help" the Islamic rebels who wanted to join Pakistan but actually with a motive to grab the territory . Since the Maharaja's forces could not fight them, he turned, naturally, to India. And the rest is history.

Junagadh and Sikkim are to India what baluchistan is to Pakistan, difference being there is no demand for freedom in Junagadh and Sikkim. Secondly *these are NOT what you people consider to be 'disputed' territories*.


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## gubbi

Jana said:


> Kashmir is NOT part of India. Kashmir is country that is *Troubled by India by invading it*.
> 
> Kashmir struggle starts from the days of the tyrant Raja not 87.
> 
> 
> And for curfews you need to check the facts.



Actually it was Pakistan who first set foot into the then independent Kashmir. Disprove me if you can. India's action was a reaction to what Pakistan initiated.

Its you who needs to get your facts right, my fair lady.

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## sasuke

The people in the country can view the affairs of the country only from the eyes for the journalists. If the journalists are half jacked up on their hallucinations, then God save the readers! Even if they dream of having some readers, they would be as crazy as the person who writes it. 

Anyways, regarding the question of peblicite, the conditions that were mutually agreed for conducting it doesn't exist anymore so there won't be a peblicite. So there won't be a peblicite anymore as India won't be accepting it. (Just common sense! For those who claim to be journalists and can't understand I can't help u.) 

back to topic: 

the reason for putting curfew is obvious as they turn into violent protests. It is to protect the public property. As they come running next day shouting that they don't even get basic infrastructure. Come on if they keep on destroying their public property who will rebuild it.


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## Tuahaa

sasuke said:


> The people in the country can view the affairs of the country only from the eyes for the journalists. If the journalists are half jacked up on their hallucinations, then God save the readers! Even if they dream of having some readers, they would be as crazy as the person who writes it.
> 
> Anyways, regarding the question of peblicite, the conditions that were mutually agreed for conducting it doesn't exist anymore so there won't be a peblicite. So there won't be a peblicite anymore as India won't be accepting it. (Just common sense! For those who claim to be journalists and can't understand I can't help u.)
> 
> back to topic:
> 
> the reason for putting curfew is obvious as they turn into violent protests. It is to protect the public property. As they come running next day shouting that they don't even get basic infrastructure. Come on if they keep on destroying their public property who will rebuild it.



Sir, if they had basic infrastructure (i.e. if you took care of them properly), they wouldn't be protesting to destroy the little that you have given them.

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## Tuahaa

gubbi said:


> Actually it was Pakistan who first set foot into the then independent Kashmir. Disprove me if you can. India's action was a reaction to what Pakistan initiated.
> 
> Its you who needs to get your facts right, my fair lady.



Can you comment on what happened in Junagadh and other princely states willing to join Pakistan but had hindu majority? And how come the rule applied to them was an exception to Kashmir?

If you hadn't cheated, we wouldn't have to fight a war.

Anyhow, Pakistan or India, Kashmir isn't happy with the things the way they are. Whether they want to join Pakistan or not, they're sympathetic to our cause as we are to theirs.


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## gubbi

Tuahaa said:


> Sir, if they had basic infrastructure (i.e. if you took care of them properly), they wouldn't be protesting to destroy the little that you have given them.



What 'basic' infrastructure are you talking about? have you visited Srinagar or other parts of Kashmir? Infact the valley is much more developed than other parts of the state which happen to be under Pakistan's control. It had a roaring tourist business untill things turned ugly in '89 and then much recently untill 4 months back.

The "instigators" for unrest cannot seem to digest the fact that Kashmiris are doing well for themselves as a state in India.

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## HAIDER

Once the force is use to press the mass uprising, then its sign of freedom. Freedom movement turn violent the day Indian forces fire first bullet on protest.


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## gubbi

Tuahaa said:


> Can you comment on what happened in Junagadh and other princely states willing to join Pakistan but had hindu majority? And how come the rule applied to them was an exception to Kashmir?


Before hyphenating Junagarh with Kashmir, as is the wont of many a uninitiated members, it would be wise to check the history of the issue. 

*Here's some fodder for thought:*


> On September 15, 1947, *Nawab Mohammad Mahabat Khanji III* of Junagadh, a princely state located on the south-western end of Gujarat and having no common border with Pakistan, *chose to accede to Pakistan ignoring Mountbatten's views*, arguing that Junagadh adjoined Pakistan by sea. The *rulers of two states that were subject to the suzerainty of Junagadh &#8212; Mangrol and Babariawad &#8212; reacted by declaring their independence from Junagadh and acceding to India*. *In response, the nawab of Junagadh militarily occupied the two states*. *Rulers of the other neighbouring states* reacted angrily, sending troops to the Junagadh frontier, and *appealed to the Government of India for assistance.* A group of Junagadhi people, led by Samaldas Gandhi, formed a government-in-exile, the Aarzi Hukumat ("temporary government").[8]
> India believed that *if Junagadh was permitted to accede to Pakistan, communal tension already simmering in Gujarat would worsen*, and refused to accept the Nawab's choice of accession. The government pointed out that the state was 80&#37; Hindu, and called for a plebiscite to decide the question of accession. India cut off supplies of fuel and coal to Junagadh, severed air and postal links, sent troops to the frontier, and occupied the principalities of Mangrol and Babariawad that had acceded to India.[9]


You see what the problem was? And I was suspended for saying this!!


> If you hadn't cheated, we wouldn't have to fight a war.


How is that cheating? Where did India cheat? Care to elaborate?


> Anyhow, Pakistan or India, Kashmir isn't happy with the things the way they are. Whether they want to join Pakistan or not, they're sympathetic to our cause as we are to theirs.


How are they sympathetic to your cause? Those idiots have no idea what they are doing! They are just being getting carried away by sentiments and adrenalin. They have no practical knowledge of what would happen if the status quo changes - *forcibly*!


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## unicorn148

Jana said:


> Kashmir is NOT part of India. Kashmir is country that is Troubled by India by invading it.
> 
> Kashmir struggle starts from the days of the tyrant Raja not 87.
> 
> 
> And for curfews you need to check the facts.



we never invaded Kashmir but stoped you from invading it . In 1947 pakistan tried to invade J&K then the king asked the help of India and after the war the king has joined India .

the day you stop sponsoring terrorism Kashmir will live in peace with out any army personal marching the streets


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## riju78

Karthic Sri said:


> Tell us how you feel.?
> 
> 98% Don`t Want To Join Pakistan - Kashmir Survey - Sri Lanka
> 
> Just 2% of people in J&K want to join Pak: Survey



bro u just made socom quite for a bit.. what an answer sirji

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## unicorn148

all the people of Pakistan can you tell me why did Pakistan attacked J&K in 1947???
because India entered into J&K only after it was asked help by the King of J&K and which the King agreed to join the united India

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## Tuahaa

unicorn148 said:


> all the people of Pakistan can you tell me why did Pakistan attacked J&K in 1947???
> because India entered into J&K only after it was asked help by the King of J&K and which the King agreed to join the united India



Please tell me why India took Junagadh even though its prince said that he wanted to be with Pakistan?

Okay, fine, take all other princely states that said they want to be with Pakistan (you already did)- but Kashmir is ours on that term.


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## Tuahaa

unicorn148 said:


> i dont know what you think of our country because the we feel secular because our last president was a Muslim whom we feel great off our present prime minister is a Sikh



Ok cool... now what about those princely states? They had a lot to do with religion.


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## unicorn148

Tuahaa said:


> Please tell me why India took Junagadh even though its prince said that he wanted to be with Pakistan?
> 
> Okay, fine, take all other princely states that said they want to be with Pakistan (you already did)- but Kashmir is ours on that term.



can you tell me other than Junagadh which princely states wanted to be with Pakistan 
In the case of Junagadh its was all Hindus and Pakistan was an Islamic nation so to prevent any communal riots it was annexed into India . If Pakistan was secular then India would have not annexed it


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## Spring Onion

*India is trying this since 47. So better come up with some human resolution *


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## unicorn148

We never tried to crush the Kashmir movement .Kashmir was peaceful until Pakistan sponcered terrorism entered it .If there were no terrorism there would be no army personals on the streets of Kashmir 
Its you people who are degrading the face of Muslims by starting Terrorism in the whole world .Even now anywhere in the world an Incident happens its the Muslims there who suffer the most

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## riCoh

Jana said:


> *India is trying this since 47. So better come up with some human resolution *



Correction.

It all started in 1989, when your so called mujahideen came and started killing kashmiris.

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## riju78

Jana said:


> *India is trying this since 47. So better come up with some human resolution *



jana ji why was kashmir peaceful till 1989?????

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## Spring Onion

Tuahaa said:


> And Kashmir was almost entirely Muslim but was given to India... same situation



Kashmir was not given to India. Infact Kashmiris were NEVER ask what they want.

The India forced the mahraja to sign joining India as condition to send its forces to defend Kashmir against rebellion.


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## Spring Onion

riju78 said:


> jana ji why was kashmir peaceful till 1989?????



Kashmiris were always protesting. They are still protesting peacefully why Indian terrorist army/police fire and kill them ???


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## unicorn148

Jana said:


> Kashmiris were always protesting. They are still protesting peacefully why Indian terrorist army/police fire and kill them ???



kashmiris were never protesting until the so called Pakistan terrorists entered India If you have any news of protests before 1989 you can post it


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## RollingStones

somebozo said:


> Because it has not adjoining border with India and Mr Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan wasnt that popular enough either. Why is Junagarth with india which asked to join Pakistan??



So, I have a question: Why did Muslims in India not move to Pakistan during partition? Also, as a corollary, the Muslims not moving to Pakistan defeats the idea of Pakistan itself?? That means, if there was a referendum today, it would mean that a large percentage of sub continental Muslims would have tossed out the idea of Pakistan??

Also, an interesting question arises: in a combined Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, would Muslims have been in the majority or at least equal partners?? what would have happened then to governance?? Interesting issues, indeed.

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## arihant

RollingStones said:


> So, I have a question: Why did Muslims in India not move to Pakistan during partition? Also, as a corollary, the Muslims not moving to Pakistan defeats the idea of Pakistan itself?? That means, if there was a referendum today, it would mean that a large percentage of sub continental Muslims would have tossed out the idea of Pakistan??
> 
> *Also, an interesting question arises: in a combined Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, would Muslims have been in the majority or at least equal partners?? *what would have happened then to governance?? Interesting issues, indeed.



It would have been around 40%. So just around becoming equal.


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## riju78

Jana said:


> Kashmiris were always protesting. They are still protesting peacefully why Indian terrorist army/police fire and kill them ???



Let me ask again..why was there no trouble in kashmir till 1989??

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## gubbi

Jana said:


> Kashmir was not given to India. Infact Kashmiris were NEVER ask what they want.
> 
> *The India forced the mahraja to sign joining India as condition to send its forces to defend Kashmir against rebellion.*



Well, nothing's for free now, is it?

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## Spring Onion

Pride said:


> Wow earlier Deoband was created by Britishers and now they are run by Hindus.. amazing. Anyways this institution has entry to your Karachi, Lahore and Faisalabad.
> 
> This institution speaks for what is truth. It earlier opposed concept of Pakistan as Islam prohibits creation of any separate nation based on religion and they are same reiterating now as well.



They should first work for the betterment of Indian Muslims. An institution that has failed to defend the faith for which it is claiming to work, is not worth listening to atleast on Kashmir.

2. Deobandis were created for giving rise to fitnas among Muslims and thats what these deobandis are doing.

3. Islam prohibits continuing living under tyrants and Islam also calls for speaking against injustices NOT to support these injustices which this Deobandi Indian mulla is doing.

His speaking on behalf of an invader country and supporting the killers exposes his credibility. He in NO way represents Islam.

He is representing Hindu India. 

BTW Islam in itself represent a separate Nation. 

and yeah these Indian deobandis are spreading militancy in Pakistan since long.


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## Spring Onion

RollingStones said:


> So, I have a question: Why did Muslims in India not move to Pakistan during partition? Also, as a corollary, the Muslims not moving to Pakistan defeats the idea of Pakistan itself??



Those who were scared to get killed and who refused to give sacrifices during partition Were NOT at all part of Pakistan in anyway. So there is NO question of defeat of idea of Pakistan.




> That means, if there was a referendum today, it would mean that a large percentage of sub continental Muslims would have tossed out the idea of Pakistan??



If there was fair referendum and there were three options 

1. Join India
2. Join Pakistan
3. Form a separate country 

then majority would have either opted for Pakistan or a separate country but would not have joined a Hindu dominated India.




> Also, an interesting question arises: in a combined Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, would Muslims have been in the majority or at least equal partners?? what would have happened then to governance?? Interesting issues, indeed.




A small counter question. As per first part of your post all those Muslims who have opted to join India means defeat of Idea of Pakistan. In other words those millions of Muslims shown loyalties to India SO why Indians all these 63 years have never integrated these INDIAN MUSLIMS as equal partners ???


Why these Indian Muslims are still asked to dump their religion, faith, culture to prove they are more Indians than being Muslims ??


Why they are asked to "Go to your Pakistan" ??


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## gubbi

Jana said:


> 3. Islam prohibits continuing living under tyrants and Islam also calls for speaking against injustices NOT to support these injustices which this Deobandi Indian mulla is doing.


How is that Sharia law working for you people in Pakistan? Oh yes, Pakistan has very able, gentle, intelligent rulers! Kudos!


> BTW Islam in itself represent a separate Nation.


Yes. Indeed. You are talking about the Ummah, no?


> and yeah these Indian deobandis are spreading militancy in Pakistan since long.


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## Jade

Srinagar, Oct 11: *Prominent separatist leader Professor Abdul Gani Bhat has said the global situation demanded that Kashmiris found alternatives to armed resistance and the UN resolutions about Kashmir dispute.*

Speaking to the Executive Council of his party, Muslim Conference, Prof Bhat acknowledged that the UN resolution formed the legal founding of the Kashmir dispute but asserted, *As of now implementation of these resolutions does not seem a possibility.
We have to, therefore, find alternatives to resolve this dispute.* He has proposed a joint mechanism between India, Pakistan and J&K about discarding all forms of violence and forging a political and economic relationship between the three.

The resolutions adopted during MC meet state that dialogue and reconciliation was the only substitute to war. One of the resolutions reads, *In the present world supporting any armed movement is next to headache*. We have to recognize the contradictions in J&Ks collective thinking and decide that the sacrifices wont be allowed to go waste. For that to happen, the ongoing movement has to be linked to meaningful dialogue process.

Prof Bhat, also Chairman of Muslim Conference, a key constituent of Hurriyat Conference (M), sought an unambiguous declaration from India and Pakistan about the Kashmiris right of self-determination. We wont accept political hegemony from any side, he said adding that confidence building measures should be taken to facilitate the dialogue process.

In order to abolish all forms of violence Muslim Conference has sought permanent guarantees from India, Pakistan and Kashmiri people and suggested a cross-border Kashmir Council that would over restoration of trade, travel and other mutual relations of two parts of Kashmir. This council, reads the MC resolution, will also decide matters including water sharing, trade, tourism, travel documents etc.

____________________

Although some points are militant, at least some sane voice is emerging out from the separatists


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## riju78

riju78 said:


> Let me ask again..why was there no trouble in kashmir till 1989??



still waiting jana ji

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## Frankenstein

RollingStones said:


> So, I have a question: Why did Muslims in India not move to Pakistan during partition?



Many Muslims did including my ancestors, are you smoking weed?


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## gubbi

Jana said:


> Those who were scared to get killed and who refused to give sacrifices during partition Were NOT at all part of Pakistan in anyway.


You mean to say that Muslims who stayed behind were not brave enough to embrace the idea of Pakistan? 
What an inane pov!


> If there was *fair referendum* and there were *three options*
> 
> 1. Join India
> 2. Join Pakistan
> 3. *Form a separate country *
> 
> then majority would have either opted for Pakistan or a separate country but would not have joined a Hindu dominated India.









Seriously? Does it even make any sense?


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## Spring Onion

Frankenstein said:


> Many Muslims did including my ancestors, are you smoking weed?



he is talking about those Muslims who showing full loyalties to India remained there, who were later burnt alive in Gujrat for this loyalty.

Who's Mosque was demolished by Hindu fanatics and who were recently reminded that they are not even considered full Indians to be imparted justice under Indian justice system. read ayodhya verdict.


These are fruits of their loyalty to India.

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## Spring Onion

gubbi said:


> Seriously? Does it even make any sense?



what is so difficult for you to understand? He said if TODAY there was such referendum and i replied.


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## riju78

hi jana ji u r here...well let me ask this q on kashmir here again..why was there peace till 1989???


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## prototype

Jana said:


> Those who were scared to get killed and who refused to give sacrifices during partition Were NOT at all part of Pakistan in anyway. So there is NO question of defeat of idea of Pakistan.



no actually those who felt personal freedom is more important than religious bigotry choose to stay back,atleast here in India,no Muslim have to live under the shadow of Sharia






Jana said:


> If there was fair referendum and there were three options
> 
> 1. Join India
> 2. Join Pakistan
> 3. Form a separate country
> 
> then majority would have either opted for Pakistan or a separate country but would not have joined a Hindu dominated India.



Majority already made their choice back in 1947,u only failed to see it




Jana said:


> A small counter question. As per first part of your post all those Muslims who have opted to join India means defeat of Idea of Pakistan. In other words those millions of Muslims shown loyalties to India SO why Indians all these 63 years have never integrated these INDIAN MUSLIMS as equal partners ???



and according to u how Muslims chossing to stay in a Hindu dominated society is the failure of Islam,do u consider ur religion that weak




Jana said:


> Why these Indian Muslims are still asked to dump their religion, faith, culture to prove they are more Indians than being Muslims ??
> 
> 
> Why they are asked to "Go to your Pakistan" ??



do body asked here to dump their religion,faith or culture,this is all that u want to see ,to enjoy ruffles created inside a nation called democracy(and this is only applicable to Indian muslims-to keep religion before nation,so that one day pakistan can say for itself see Islamic India speak for us),and not to point out whenever an Indian Muslim speak for our country,that becomes hard to digest for u,because u see the defeat of ur ummah in that,and ur failure as the guardians of the religion

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## Spring Onion

prototype said:


> no actually those who felt personal freedom is more important than religious bigotry choose to stay back,atleast here in India,no Muslim have to live under the shadow of Sharia



In India they are living under Hinduism. even your so-called secular justice system proved its is also ORANGE. And my question again to bhartis what You Hindu Indians have given to Muslims for their choice to remain in India? Why you question the Indianism of a Muslim when he speaks against injustices to him in India?

The recent example here is of Firefighter an Indian Muslim member who has reservations against one-sided verdict in Babri Mosque and he was cowed down by Indians here and were asking him to prove himself Indian first and Muslim second. personal freedom ? oh yeah very much visible.




> Majority already made their choice back in 1947,u only failed to see it



They are considered minority and second class citizens in India. We have no issue with their choice. Their situation is like "na ghar ka na ghat ka"






> and according to u how Muslims chossing to stay in a Hindu dominated society is the failure of Islam,do u consider ur religion that weak



You have severe problem of comprehension here. It is failure of their choice. Our religion strong enough to send oldest religion in fear of being dominated by a young religion






> do body asked here to dump their religion,faith or culture,this is all that u want to see ,to enjoy ruffles created inside a nation called democracy(and this is only applicable to Indian muslims-to keep religion before nation,so that one day pakistan can say for itself see Islamic India speak for us),and not to point out whenever an Indian Muslim speak for our country,that becomes hard to digest for u,because u see the defeat of ur ummah in that,and ur failure as the guardians of the religion



This is not your right to ask Indian Muslims to keep their nation above their religion. Let them decide that. 


2. Your deo bandi mullah can speak for YOU i have no issue with and i already said he is speaking for India. Since Kashmir is an occupied country hence NO Indian statement is for Kashmiri right.


The Indian government has tried to play this card but miserably failed after use of force against Kashniris


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## Tuahaa

Till this thread, Indians were the first talking about 'insane' 'fatwas' of the 'Deobandis'.

Now suddenly, their opinions are educated (and hence have the right to pass on religious laws) and they are no longer extreme. Choose one, guys! You can't have two for everything!


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## Tuahaa

gubbi said:


> Before hyphenating Junagarh with Kashmir, as is the wont of many a uninitiated members, it would be wise to check the history of the issue.
> 
> *Here's some fodder for thought:*
> 
> You see what the problem was? And I was suspended for saying this!!
> 
> How is that cheating? Where did India cheat? Care to elaborate?
> 
> How are they sympathetic to your cause? Those idiots have no idea what they are doing! They are just being getting carried away by sentiments and adrenalin. They have no practical knowledge of what would happen if the status quo changes - *forcibly*!



Fine, whatever your opinions are on the Junagadh issue and other princely states. Now- say India takes these states (which it did). Was it fair according to the _rules_? No, it wasn't. Apparently they didn't want 'pockets' of Pakistan in India. So India absorbed the land. 

Okay, that's fine with us. But does that not give Pakistan the right to take Kashmir if the raja (or whatever he was) was a hindu, but his people were Muslims? Whatever is politically right- that does not matter. Right now, Kashmir is angry (if you haven't noticed) about this and is only going to get angrier.

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## Leonidas

Areesh said:


>



Exactly.. you should not. 

After all its India's internal issue.


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## RamGorur

Jana said:


> he is talking about those Muslims who showing full loyalties to India remained there, who were later burnt alive in Gujrat for this loyalty.


So 200 million Muslims died in Gujrat?



> Who's Mosque was demolished by Hindu fanatics....


And what about those hundreds of thousands of mosques in every nook and corner of India?



> ...and who were recently reminded that they are not even considered full Indians to be imparted justice under Indian justice system. *read ayodhya verdict*.


Did you yourself read the Ayodhya verdict?


> These are fruits of their loyalty to India.


And the fruits of loyalty to Pakistan is that Ahmedis are declared non-Muslim.

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## LaBong

> The recent example here is of Firefighter an Indian Muslim member who has reservations against one-sided verdict in Babri Mosque and he was cowed down by Indians here and were asking him to prove himself Indian first and Muslim second. personal freedom ? oh yeah very much visible.



I see many times in this forum, people have been asked to be Pakistani first and stop caring about some imagined ummah! If they have not been cowed down by Pakistani members, how the concerned person being cowed down by other Indians?


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## Tuahaa

I am a MUSLIM, and then I am a PAKISTANI.

Do you feel the burnnnnnn?

Why do you people enjoy separating Islam from Muslims? It's as if half the members are obsessed with doing that in this forum (okay, I will be barraged with articles regarding 'non-existed Islamic unity')...

If not also religious, Kashmir is an affair of both India and Pakistan.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

There is no point arguing why not conduct the plebiscite promised by Nehru under UN supervision the world's largest democracy can afford a democratic referendum or plebiscite can't it!


the fact of the matter is, the presence of the occupational forces (the sissies) is only to hindustan's peril. Ask any Kashmiri and they will say that they loathe their presence. Occupied Kashmiris always declare August 15th as a black day; this is an annual phenomenon

these alone are very telling signs!



"integral part" argument = no credibility; no truth in it whatsoever; laugh-worthy at best


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## corporate_slave

RamGorur said:


> So 200 million Muslims died in Gujrat?
> 
> 
> And what about those hundreds of thousands of mosques in every nook and corner of India?
> 
> 
> Did you yourself read the Ayodhya verdict?
> 
> And the fruits of loyalty to Pakistan is that Ahmedis are declared non-Muslim.



Very well said. Some people make flame-ish comments about things which are completely India's business and then scream when we bring up Balochistan, Pukhtoonkhwa, Ahmadiyas, Shias, Punjabi dominance and all that. Then we are told to shut up, since it is completely "Pakistani internal matter". But the endless nose-poking and unwanted comments continue unabated from some people.


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## prototype

Jana said:


> In India they are living under Hinduism. even your so-called secular justice system proved its is also ORANGE. And my question again to bhartis what You Hindu Indians have given to Muslims for their choice to remain in India? Why you question the Indianism of a Muslim when he speaks against injustices to him in India?



so living under Hinduism is actually many people in Pakistan r unable to tolerate whatever the condition's would b,we r not questioning the Indianism of Muslims but it is u who r questioning the Islamic values of an Indian,because chocing to staying back in India they themselves have broken ur illusions about ur religion,and what India have given Muslims,u people brag a lot about Gujrat riots,do u know muslims in gujrat r the most prosperous in india,and their r many imminent personalities here,not just a number that u can count with hands,but a number u will exhaust while counting,ask them what India had given them



Jana said:


> The recent example here is of Firefighter an Indian Muslim member who has reservations against one-sided verdict in Babri Mosque and he was cowed down by Indians here and were asking him to prove himself Indian first and Muslim second. personal freedom ? oh yeah very much visible.



With some minority exceptions u want to prove ur case,u choose to count 1 man,but ignore to count one whole body just because they speak for India,angering the guardian's of islam,bringing dis reputation to ur illusions,this is a nation were not just Muslim but any minority can become a President or Prime minister,now dont tell to much about minority protection,as u r a nation which wrote kafir on the chest of a dead Hindu,*anyway more Muslims r killed in Pakistan then those get killed in India,so u have no right to ask about their freedom*



Jana said:


> They are considered minority and second class citizens in India. We have no issue with their choice. Their situation is like "na ghar ka na ghat ka"



No we dont treat them the way u treat Muhajirs,actually we also speak about them here,na ghar ke na ghat ke



Jana said:


> You have severe problem of comprehension here. It is failure of their choice. Our religion strong enough to send oldest religion in fear of being dominated by a young religion



Its ur failure of comprehension,i never mentioned anything about clash of civilization's or religion's,u bigotry is pushing u to think the same




Jana said:


> This is not your right to ask Indian Muslims to keep their nation above their religion. Let them decide that.
> 
> 
> 2. Your deo bandi mullah can speak for YOU i have no issue with and i already said he is speaking for India. Since Kashmir is an occupied country hence NO Indian statement is for Kashmiri right.
> 
> 
> The Indian government has tried to play this card but miserably failed after use of force against Kashniris



and this is also not ur right to ask Indian Muslim to put religion before nation,just mind ur own business,Indian Muslims know what is good for them

deobandi can definitely speak for us and for Kashmir also as far as we control it,if u think they cant mention about it then first take Kashmir from our hands and then brag about it,since they had breaken ur illusion's of ummah i know why u harbour so hatred against them,against a *nationalistic Indian muslim
*

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## RamGorur

> &#8220;*In the present world supporting any armed movement is next to suicide*.


There, fixed it for Prof. Gani.


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## prototype

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *India seals off Kashmir to fend off fresh protest​*
> Published on Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 15:52
> 
> Police on Tuesday sealed off residential areas and reimposed a round-the-clock curfew in the Kashmir valley to pre-empt the first anti-India rally since authorities announced concessions to end violent protests.
> 
> A new protest with a wide following would have been interpreted as a setback for New Delhi's peace initiative launched three weeks ago and obliged the government to pursue other ways to deal with the unrest in the disputed region.
> 
> 
> The hardline separatist leader in majority-Muslim Kashmir called on residents to defy the curfew and go into the streets.
> 
> Thousands of police and soldiers in riot gear patrolled deserted streets and told residents through loudspeakers to stay indoors.
> 
> "Authorities have decided to impose valley-wide strict curfew restrictions," a police statement said. "There are no reports of any untoward incident from anywhere so far."
> 
> At least 110 people have been killed since June, mostly by police bullets. The protests are the biggest since an armed revolt 1989 against Indian rule in the Himalayan region, which both India and Pakistan claim in full but rule in parts.
> 
> The recent wave of protests in Indian Kashmir subsided after New Delhi relaxed security in Srinagar, the summer capital, freed some 50 protesters, announced compensation for families of the dead and offered to talk to all political groups.
> 
> But many Kashmiris dismiss the offer as inadequate and hardline separatists said they would press on with protests.
> 
> Opinion surveys show a large majority of Kashmiris favour independence from the region from both India and Pakistan.
> 
> Over the past four months, the Kashmir valley has been in a siege-like state of strikes, protests and curfews. Shops have remained shut, along with most schools, and daily activities are subject to severe disruption.
> 
> Tuesday's rally had been called by Syed Ali Shah Geelani, a hardliner who has emerged as the leading figure in anti-Indian protests.
> 
> "In this situation, we have only two options: either surrender before Indian bullying, or uphold the sanctity of our sacrifices and struggle on till we achieve our goal," he said in a statement.
> 
> Tens of thousands have been killed in Kashmir since simmering discontent against Indian rule turned into a full-blown rebellion over two-decades ago.
> 
> India and Pakistan have fought two of their three wars since partition and independence in 1947 over the region.
> 
> India seals off Kashmir to fend off fresh protest - Reuters -



so what's wrong


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## LaBong

Tuahaa said:


> I am a MUSLIM, and then I am a PAKISTANI.
> 
> *Do you feel the burnnnnnn?*
> 
> Why do you people enjoy separating Islam from Muslims? It's as if half the members are obsessed with doing that in this forum (okay, I will be barraged with articles regarding 'non-existed Islamic unity')...
> 
> If not also religious, Kashmir is an affair of both India and Pakistan.



If that was directed to me, I could care less. Like I said I seen pakistani people asking very small number of members to be Pakistani first. 

Also just saying I'm muslim first then pakistani doesn't prove anything. It's easy to talk the talk but you gotta walk the walk too.


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## Hoodibaba

RamGorur said:


> There, fixed it for Prof. Gani.



We all know whom that statement was for.


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## Peshwa

Jana said:


> Those who were scared to get killed and who refused to give sacrifices during partition Were NOT at all part of Pakistan in anyway. So there is NO question of defeat of idea of Pakistan.



Well Pakistan as a concept fails when you include the creation of BD.....
So its not that Pakistanis cant live with Hindus, its that Pakistanis cant live with each other as well....so why blame "Hindu domination"...because that obviously wasnt the cause!

Besides.....the fact that a significant population of Muslims stayed back in India screams that Pakistan as a concept was not favorable to all Muslims...

Now apply that to Kashmir where similar sentiments exist.....Some want freedom, some want pakistan, some want India.....
Dont you think a second partition is needed?




> If there was fair referendum and there were three options
> 
> 1. Join India
> 2. Join Pakistan
> 3. Form a separate country
> 
> then majority would have either opted for Pakistan or a separate country but would not have joined a Hindu dominated India.




What an asinine comment....

Self-fulfilling prophecy at best.....

So using the examples of the recent years (Ayodhya, Gujrat) you are basing that Indian Muslims would not want to live in India....

Based on the current situations of Muslims in Pakistan....do you think anyone would want to be part of that mess?

Please....except for the few isolated incidents, Muslims of India have been provided adequate security in all spheres of life.....so please dont try mislead people on an international forum as though Pak is a "safe haven" for Muslims....

At present, it is a safe haven for Al Qaeda, Afghan Taliban and TTP and no one else!

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## Tuahaa

........................self delete.............


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## r3alist

yes - but when there is no democracy - no chance for freedom violence follows


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## T-Faz

indianrabbit said:


> I never mentioned that all Pakistani's are brainwashed but I think you will agree that both sides do twist the information to suit their needs.
> 
> I am positive that these women have no first hand information and are just following someone's script.
> 
> What will happen when a group of people are fed propoganda material and they have no idea on things on the ground. That is my point.
> 
> Also lot of incorrect information floating on web and posted on this forum as well. People reading them does not care if the information is correct.
> 
> To point out one single thing.
> Ask members here and they will tell you that women are being raped in Kashmir day in day out by Indian Army.
> 
> Fact is between 2009 and 2010 this count stands ZERO.
> One of the member (Elite) of this forum use to say this every place and I asked for number of women being raped recently.
> 
> Now does this not proof that people who talk about Kashmir has no idea.
> 
> I am all for discussion on facts but creating emotions on distorted facts will help no one.



First of all the post in question was generalising and that is where you stepped in. Secondly, whatever information that is released to the public, it is used for the purpose of informing the population, them can then be influenced by the content of it or some other source is irrelevant in this thread as the article is not accusing anyone of anything.

Sure there are details that might necessarily be true but no where in the media of Pakistan will this news be of most importance. As for the **** allegations, no one in the Pakistani media has said anything to that affect. 

This article did not distort any facts but you seem to be ranting for some odd reason. 



Camdor said:


> so are you saying that you don not want Kashmir???



When did I say that?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind is almost as much (if not as much) an enemy of Pakistan (as a country, as an idea) as the radical saffron outfits

incidentally, the 2nd post in this thread did a good job reflecting the views of occupied Kashmiris with regards to the so-called "ulema e hind"

if increasing the size of their constituency (to include occupied Kashmiris) was their goal, they definitely blundered and f*cked it up big time; especially in an era where there seems to be calls for total independence from some younger circles in the Kashmir. 


they can't be bought....they can't be placated by the occupational forces (sissies) or the politicians sitting comfortably all the way in dilly


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## LaBong

Is it fashionable to append 'y' after each common noun that ends with 'i', or is it a practice exclusively been carried out in Pakistan?


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## SinoPak

Pakistan Paindabad Kashmir Banega Pakistan

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## LaBong

The funny thing is, people who are claiming to be Muslims first and then Pakistani and asking Indian Muslims to follow suit, necessarily forgetting/not realising that by this belief the whole idea of creating Pakistan will render as void! I mean what is the need of creating a separate country when Islam is country-independent!

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## S_O_C_O_M



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## SinoPak

J&K integral part of India: joke of century ha ha ha


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## Peshwa

SinoPak said:


> Pakistan Paindabad Kashmir Banega Pakistan



Ive always wanted to ask......

What does "Paindabad" mean? Somehow it doesnt sound like a slogan favoring Pak

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## prototype

SinoPak said:


> J&K integral part of India: joke of century ha ha ha



So if u r finished with ur joke,once again take a look at the map

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## SinoPak

prototype said:


> So if u r finished with ur joke,once again take a look at the map



We will change the map in no time once we decide to teach you a lesson just like we beat you in kargil by capturing the kargil peaks.


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## NWO

For those thinking that Kashmir is a integral part of India because they have been that way for over 60 years, remember that the British colonized India for over a century, and still lost it.


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## Von Hölle

NWO said:


> For those thinking that Kashmir is a integral part of India because they have been that way for over 60 years, remember that the British colonized India for over a century, and still lost it.



Because India was part of the British commonwealth and not Britain.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Pakistans stance about Kashmir is clear: Qureshi​*
Submitted 7 hrs 25 mins ago 






Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi reiterated Pakistans stance regarding Kashmir, adding that the issue needs progress rather than review.

Talking to media after chairing a meeting of standing committee for foreign affairs, Qureshi said that India has been told in equivocal terms that the next session of dialogue should not be result-oriented instead of mere photo session. Not only we but Indian people also want meaningful talks on Kashmir issue, Qureshi said. He called upon the global community to help end the Indian forces atrocities and human rights violations going on in the held valley. "India might not have liked my speech at the United Nations, I think, that is why it is delaying the process of dialogue resumption the minister replied when asked about the delay in the talks with India. Parrying a question about his meeting with the COAS, the FM said that he did not give heed to rumours. When his attention was drawn to Dr Aafias repatriation, he said that We cannot do anything about US judicial system; however, efforts are on all the diplomatic and political channels are on to get her back.

Pakistans stance about Kashmir is clear: Qureshi | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

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## S_O_C_O_M

*India committing crimes against humanity in Kashmir: JKPM​*
Jammu, October 12 (KMS): The Jammu and Kashmir Peoples Movement (JKPM), a constituent of the All Parties Hurriyet Conference, has said that India is committing heinous crimes against humanity in occupied Kashmir.

Addressing party workers at Thanamandi, APHC leader and the JKPM Chairman, Ghulam Ahmed Mir, said that Indian troops had declared a war against innocent and unarmed people of the occupied territory which, if not stopped, could lead to a major humanitarian crisis.

The JKPM Chairman said that hospitals in Kashmir were running out of surgical stuff and lifesaving medicines. He said that by keeping the whole occupied Kashmir under curfew, India had virtually declared an economic blockade against the people who were unable to obtain the basic necessities of life.

Ghulam Ahmed Mir called upon the international community to come forward and save the innocent Kashmiris from the brutal aggression of New Delhi. He said that the UN Security Council, which is guardian of the rights of the people, must break its silence and play its role for the immediate resolution of the lingering dispute, which had posed a threat to the peace and development of South Asia.

The APHC leader urged the United Nations to hold an emergency session of the Security Council to discuss fast deteriorating situation in the occupied territory.

India committing crimes against humanity in Kashmir: JKPM | Kashmir Media Service


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## NWO

This is becoming a flaming thread again...

I wonder which group do those women belong, or are they just random people?


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## Man of Thoughts

naumananjum said:


> *"India has refused to implement the UN resolutions on Kashmir for the last 60 years. *
> 
> The Indian-administrated region has been hit by a wave of protests since June 11, when a 17-year old student was killed by a police teargas shell.
> *Since then, at least 110 people, mostly teenagers and students, have been killed by Indian security forces. *
> .
> really sad situation



And they called themselves the *BIGGEST DEMOCRACY *

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## SinoPak

Jzaib said:


> And they called themselves the *BIGGEST DEMOCRACY *



demo-crazy

of the crazy people
for the crazy people
by the crazy people.

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## Man of Thoughts

SinoPak said:


> demo-crazy



Right

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## gubbi

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *Pakistans stance about Kashmir is clear: Qureshi*



And what that stand exactly is? 

On one hand Pakistan calls for 'plebiscite' without honoring its commitment to UN resolutions, and on the other Pakistan claims that "Kashmir should have been/is ours".

Oh the ambiguity of Pakistan's "moral diplomacy"!

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## silent hill

its time for leader ship to wake up and address and morally fight kashmiri cause, like bhutto did in UNSC before.. dont behave like sitting ducks


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## SinoPak

silent hill said:


> its time for leader ship to wake up and address and morally fight kashmiri cause, like bhutto did in UNSC before.. dont behave like sitting ducks



it's time for army to declare war for the sake of our kashmiri brothers


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## silent hill

SinoPak said:


> *bharati* demo-crazy
> 
> of the crazy people
> for the crazy people
> by the crazy people.



nice .............................

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## Abu Zolfiqar

those women are exercising a right to protest.....there was a similar protest in Lahore last month if my memory serves me right

a lot of people in Pakistan, Kashmir and elsewhere are very angry about the unprofessional conduct of the hindustany occupational forces.


and constantly placing Mr. Geelani and such people under house arrest is only exacerbating the situation....

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## DGMO

silent hill said:


> morally fight kashmiri cause, like bhutto did in UNSC before


And what did Bhutto achieve? What did he manage to change?


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## SinoPak

KASHMIR BANEGA PAKISTAN!


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## Gene

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> those women are exercising a right to protest.....there was a similar protest in Lahore last month if my memory serves me right
> 
> a lot of people in Pakistan, Kashmir and elsewhere are very angry about the unprofessional conduct of the hindustany occupational forces (aka the sissies).
> 
> 
> and constantly placing Mr. Geelani and such people under house arrest is only exacerbating the situation....



who gave the right & by what right those women are protesting????
as kashmir is a part of india,the right goes to kashmiris,not to pakistanis..

& as a senior member i expect from you to use words in a good manner.


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## bandmaster

I noticed some children but I can't find any women in that pic.


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## JanjaWeed

*Pakistan&#8217;s stance about Kashmir is clear: Qureshi *

&


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## karan.1970

SinoPak said:


> KASHMIR BANEGA PAKISTAN!



Agar Kashmir Pakistan ban gaya, to Pakistan kya banega?? 2 pakistan to nahin ho sakte naa..??


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## SBD-3

yep i can understand Indians flocking to this........


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## SBD-3

karan.1970 said:


> Agar Kashmir Pakistan ban gaya, to Pakistan kya banega?? 2 pakistan to nahin ho sakte naa..??


and you posted this for...............??? increasing your post count???

---------- Post added at 01:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 AM ----------




Perceptron said:


> Kashmir ka to pata nahi, par Pashtunistan aur Free Baluchistan ka nazaara to zaroor dikhayi de raha hai. Don't believe me, read on *here*.



Typical reply.....

---------- Post added at 01:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:53 AM ----------




StreetHawk said:


> *Pakistan&#8217;s stance about Kashmir is clear: Qureshi *
> 
> &



Its pinches Indian members.......not may be but certainly


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## SBD-3

gubbi said:


> And what that stand exactly is?
> 
> On one hand Pakistan calls for 'plebiscite' without honoring its commitment to UN resolutions, and on the other Pakistan claims that "Kashmir should have been/is ours".
> 
> Oh the ambiguity of Pakistan's "moral diplomacy"!



oh great Times of India.... I think they get most of their circulation from anti Pakistan content


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## SBD-3

indianrabbit said:


> Excatly half of them do not know what is happening. Even things like CRPF men demolishing their picket is termed as Indian Army destroying Kashmiri home. They are constantly fed wrong information to make sure anti India feeling is cultivated.


oh i guess you were there in that protest....woman!!!!


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## karan.1970

hasnain0099 said:


> and you posted this for...............??? increasing your post count???




Couldnt resist the temptation of a quick pot shot.. But yeah.. The count thing works too..


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## SBD-3

I have to confess that Qureshi is a very clear, calm and straight forward FM, one of the best we had lately. 

---------- Post added at 02:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:03 AM ----------




karan.1970 said:


> and you accused me of posting stuff to increase my post count??



just a piece of information to share with you


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## SBD-3

they always do that.....this is not something new.....just open a thread and see for yourself


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## Areesh

Perceptron said:


> Kashmir ka to pata nahi, par Pashtunistan aur Free Baluchistan ka nazaara to zaroor dikhayi de raha hai. Don't believe me, read on *here*.



I newer knew that hallucinations of Goras are that very famous among the BR kids. 

Keep it up. You have every right to believe in anyones hallucinations..

@On topic...

Well said.

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## SBD-3

Karthic Sri said:


> Tell us how you feel.?
> 
> 98% Don`t Want To Join Pakistan - Kashmir Survey - Sri Lanka
> 
> Just 2% of people in J&K want to join Pak: Survey


yeah thats why JKHC is able to arrange mass protensts, thats why Indian government had to detain Gliani. Thats why Indians are negociating with them....If they dont have power and following, then why would Indian goverment bother...so dont put forward such baseless arguments


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## Contrarian

Keep crying and keep holding protests, Pakistani populace has a passion for holding protests for any issue anywhere on the globe!

Meanwhile India doesnt give a damn and keeps forging ahead.

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## RollingStones

SinoPak said:


> We will change the map in no time once we decide to teach you a lesson just like we beat you in kargil by capturing the kargil peaks.



So I want to draw an analogy between Israel and Pakistan. So, today, a Jewish person is free to go and settle down in Israel and engage in gainful employment. Is this the case with pakistan as well? Can any Muslim around the world (or maybe just from South Asia??) apply to settle in Pakistan and engage in gainful employment? If this is the policy, has this happened? Have Muslims from the world/south asia applied to become Pakistanis and, if yes, how many? Any Stats? This would be a clear indicator that the idea of Pakistan is valid. If we see a barrage of applications from Indian Muslims who stayed back out of fear with the Pak Embassy, lets say in Delhi, then we can readily see that Indian Muslims are suppressed. I am trying to think logically here, instead of propagandizing. 
For instance, the artiste MF Hussain was kicked out of India due to religious intolerance by some Hindu folks, but he does not seem to have applied for a stay in Pakistan (I believe he is in Qatar), clearly showing that pakistan is not the preferred place for leftover Indian Muslims. 
Also, why isnt there a clamor from people in Bangladesh to remerge with pakistan, now that much water has flown under the bridge?
Doesnt this negate once again the idea that Subcontinental Muslims would automatically choose Pakistan, given they have a choice? 
Extending the arguments further, why would subcontinental Kashmiri Muslims choose Pakistan as well? 
The same goes for Hindu India as well. For example, Nepal being predominantly Hindu and Sri Lanka/Bhutan being predominantly Buddhist have not chosen to merge with India. 
Why are there several Muslim countries around the Middle East, instead of one federation?
All evidence points to the fact that people do NOT want to merge on the basis of religion. They do not even want to merge on the basis of race. Look at Africa. 
They are together or apart because of leaders and the way they do politics. A political leader who gains because of staying apart is not going to want to become part of a federation and lose his or her powers. On the other hand, a leader who enjoys power within a federation would not want the federation to break apart. I dont think religion has anything to do with it. Ergo, Kashmir can only be a political issue and not a religious issue as some leader there who thinks that his or her power structure would be greater would want an independent kashmir he/she can rule over. Once again, the argument that they would want to automatically merge with Pakistan has little validity here.

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## bandit

RollingStones said:


> The same goes for Hindu India as well. For example, Nepal being predominantly Hindu and Sri Lanka/Bhutan being predominantly Buddhist have not chosen to merge with India.



Nice argument, except a small factual mistake.
India isn't Hindu, and therefore cannot form religion as a basis for Nepal or Bhutan to join itself. In fact, it was Nepal that was the only hindu country till recently, and could have asked India to join it by that logic.


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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> There is no point arguing why not conduct the plebiscite promised by Nehru under UN supervision the world's largest democracy can afford a democratic referendum or plebiscite can't it!
> 
> 
> the fact of the matter is, the presence of the occupational forces (the sissies) is only to hindustan's peril. Ask any Kashmiri and they will say that they loathe their presence. Occupied Kashmiris always declare August 15th as a black day; this is an annual phenomenon
> 
> these alone are very telling signs!
> 
> 
> 
> "integral part" argument = no credibility; no truth in it whatsoever; laugh-worthy at best




I wonder why the same Kashmiris recorded the highest percentage of voting in both State level and National elections.

Or may be it was the fudged numbers by the Bharti Media/Govt

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## Abu Zolfiqar

bandit said:


> Nice argument, except a small factual mistake.
> India isn't Hindu, and therefore cannot form religion as a basis for Nepal or Bhutan to join itself. In fact, it was Nepal that was the only hindu country till recently, and could have asked India to join it by that logic.



utter hogwash.

your 'vande mataram' is a song expressing hindu nationalism, with hindu references, and here you are saying hindustan isn't hindu

you are within your right to dub it a secular country; at least on the outside (as opposed to grass-roots level)


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## karan.1970

SinoPak said:


> We will change the map in no time once we decide to teach you a lesson just like we beat you in kargil by capturing the kargil peaks.



Will change... 

I will own 3 mercedes S class in next 3 months

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## Abu Zolfiqar

so if you are confident in those so-called elections, pray tell me why hindustanys are the most insecure, quivery people on the face of earth every time plebisite topic is brought up?


why? b/c realities (the GROUND REALITIES in Kashmir, not ToI/hindu ''realities'') on the ground suggest that hindustan ALREADY HAS lost occupied Kashmir.

why do the people of this disputed territory declare your independence day as a black day? That alone is a huge snub.


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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> utter hogwash.
> 
> your 'vande mataram' is a song expressing hindu nationalism, with hindu references, and here you are saying hindustan isn't hindu
> 
> you are within your right to dub it a secular country; at least on the outside (as opposed to grass-roots level)



That way easter and X Mas are declared holidays in the US but Eid is not. So next you will say that US is not secular as well..

Or may be the fact that the Haj airfare from India is subsidized for Muslims by GoI makes India an Islamic state??

I guess you do need to read up on what a secular state means..

Secular state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> so if you are confident in those so-called elections, pray tell me why hindustanys are the most insecure, quivery people on the face of earth every time plebisite topic is brought up?
> 
> 
> why? b/c realities (the GROUND REALITIES in Kashmir, not ToI/hindu ''realities'') on the ground suggest that hindustan ALREADY HAS lost occupied Kashmir.
> 
> why do the people of this disputed territory declare your independence day as a black day? That alone is a huge snub.



A couple of years back, a lot of traders wore black bands on the independence day to protest against the Sealing of illegal commercial establishments in New Delhi. The situation went bad enough for the police to open fire resulting in deaths of 2 protesters. That was a snub too I guess.  Will not make us hold a plebiscite in New Delhi. It follows a 5 year cycle of State elections.. just like J&K


About plebiscite, till our constitution doesnt recognize the concept of plebiscite for a state of the republic, that concept is just a rant which the world has forgotten, but Pakistan hasnt. 

No skin off India's back.. Pakistan cant do much except unsuccessfully rake up the issue at UN and get *snubbed* by both the UN Sec Gen and the US state Department. If you are looking for a snub, you will be better looking in that direction..

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Karan i don't need lectures from you on anything. Thanks for your offer. 


by the way, every time a U.S. President takes oath --he touches the Bible. There are references to God (e.g. pledge of allegiance).


But even then, i would assert U.S. is more or less a secular state; except for maybe some ultra-nationalist conservatives, especially in the southern or other rural regions where religion plays a more dominant role --incidentally less diverse areas (look at utah for example)

U.S. post depression cannot be equated to hindustan, which is hardly 6 decades old. The values are totally different. There is still a lot of religious intolerance in hindustan; even among people with political power. 

but now we are deviating from the topic....

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## PakSher

Half of India will be integral part of Pakistan in the future.

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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Karan i don't need lectures from you on anything. Thanks for your offer.
> 
> 
> by the way, every time a U.S. President takes oath --he touches the Bible. There are references to God (e.g. pledge of allegiance).
> 
> 
> But even then, i would assert U.S. is more or less a secular state; except for maybe some ultra-nationalist conservatives, especially in the southern or other rural regions where religion plays a more dominant role --incidentally less diverse areas (look at utah for example)
> 
> U.S. post depression cannot be equated to hindustan, which is hardly 6 decades old. The values are totally different. There is still a lot of religious intolerance in hindustan; even among people with political power.
> 
> but now we are deviating from the topic....



Wasnt a lecture Abu.. More of a suggestion.. Feel free to ignore..

So I agree about the level of intolerence about religion in India. However that doesnt take away the fact that formally there is no state religion for India. As a matter of fact the Political party that has been in power for 90% of the time since India's independence is considered as anti Hindu by the right wing political spectrum.

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## karan.1970

PakSher said:


> Half of India will be integral part of Pakistan in the future.




time to go to bed dude.. you are mixing up eRepublik and real life. Get away from your Comp sometimes and get a life..


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## Omar1984

PakSher said:


> Half of India will be integral part of Pakistan in the future.



Then those 900 million hindus of india will be settling in Islamabad, Lahore, Karachi, Peshawar, and Quetta.

Pakistan's total population is just 175 million.


Think before you speak. Uttar Pradesh, Mumbai, Tamil Nadu are not disputed, while Kashmir is a disputed territory recognized as disputed by the United Nations.


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## brahmastra

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> so if you are confident in those so-called elections, pray tell me why hindustanys are the most insecure, quivery people on the face of earth every time plebisite topic is brought up?



It is laughable when pakistanys talk about plebisite. Fulfill the preconditions first. kick out all non Kashmirys from so calles 'Azad Kashmir' and as they have their Prime minister declare it as a country and do not show it as a part of your country then talk to Indians. 




> why? b/c realities (the GROUND REALITIES in Kashmir, not ToI/hindu ''realities'') on the ground suggest that hindustan ALREADY HAS lost occupied Kashmir.



The day you stop reading MasktheTruth and graterKashmir you will know India has last kashmir or not.




> why do the people of this disputed territory declare your independence day as a black day? That alone is a huge snub.



Some thousand *people from only valley* do not represent whole kashmir who has leader want exactly opposite what people want.(First chice to join pakistan ).

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## Omar1984

Kashmiri leaders rebuff abhorrent suggestions


SRINAGAR: The Indian Muslim clergy which pitchforked itself in the Kashmiri crisis was in for a rebuff by the Kashmiri separatist leadership for their suggestions to deal with the dispute.

The powerful Jamiat Ulama-i-Hind, body of Deobandi clerics, at its Kashmir conference at Deoband on Sunday apart from stating that Kashmir was an integral part suggested that the issue be resolved within the parameters of the Indian constitution.

The stand 'abhorrent' to the Kashmir separatists was pooh- poohed by both the hard-line as well the moderate leaders of the conglomerate, All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) and the pro-independence Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF).

The hard-line separatist leader, Syed Ali Shah Geelani who is in the vanguard of the over four-month-long pro-independence unrest in Kashmir which has claimed 110 lives and left hundreds wounded, trashed the suggestion saying *the conference had ignored the root cause of the problem which had raised questions over the bonafides of the conference itself.*

*The conference should have taken into consideration the pledges made by Indian leadership to allow the people of Kashmir decide their future- a fact even been acknowledged by the international community, he added.*

We dont agree with the suggestion that Kashmir issue be resolved within the frame work of the Indian constitution,  the moderate APHC chairman, Mirwaiz Moulvi Umar Farooq said.

*There are three parties to the dispute, India, Pakistan and Kashmiris. All the three parties have to be involved to find a solution to the problem.

The issue which has been a subject of several UN resolutions cannot be resolved within the Indian constitution, Mirwaiz told Arab News.*

*"I appeal to the Indian Muslims not to get involved about the political part of the Kashmir problem as we fully understand their limitations, pro-independence Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) front chairman Yasin Malik said.* 

The separatist leadership, however, thanked the clerics for having raised their voice against the human rights violations and for demanding revocation of the draconian Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA).

Another Muslim organization, Anjum Minhaj-e-Rasool has also pleaded for the resolution of the problem under the Indian constitution and asked the government to take immediately conciliatory measures to mollify the anger of Kashmiri people rather than using repressive force.

The chairman of the Anjuman, Athar Hussain Dehlvi also demanded the revocation of the AFSPA.



Kashmiri leaders rebuff ?abhorrent? suggestions - Arab News


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## Hulk

For Pakistani's asking us to have a plebiste should answer the following question first.
What right do you have in your so called Azad Kashmir, have you done plebisite or anything. India atleast has letter of accession you have nothing. So practice first before you preach.

Do not come back with an answer there is no protest there, it does not means you have got the right to rule.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

indianrabbit said:


> For Pakistani's asking us to have a plebiste should answer the following question first.
> What right do you have in your so called Azad Kashmir, have you done plebisite or anything. India atleast has letter of accession you have nothing. So practice first before you preach.
> 
> Do not come back with an answer there is no protest there, it does not means you have got the right to rule.



oh you are 100&#37; absolutely right. You have a "letter of accession" which gives you the right to subjugate, kill and oppress other human beings --those which are morally and politically opposed to you.

Over 100 killed in past few weeks in a new wave of resistance and defiance; yet you even bring up a piece of paper that ignores 1,000,001 other factors. I WILL bring up the fact that there are no protests in Azad Kashmir; because its relevant. I sure as hell don't see Azad Kashmiris holding hindustany flags, that's for sure! Not sure I can say the same thing about the start & crescent waving with honour @ Lal Chowk, occupied Sri Nagar 



oye -- mishter! you are delusional.....

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## Hulk

@Abu
India entered Kashmir after it was called. The person who ordered the Army to March in Kashmir was a Kashmiri himself (Nehru is Kashmiri). There was no way Nehru could have checked each and every Kashmiri to ask if they want India to come. 

For 40 years there was no demand for separation. That is good enough time to dispute a claim if party disagrees most of people now protesting were not even born in 1947. So we cannot have a plebiscite every time generation changes. People in 1948 never protested for 40 years end of story. Plebisite was between India and Pakistan only.

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## Hulk

Show 1 proof between 1948 and 1950 where majority Kashmiri asked for plebiscite? The Kashmiri never went to UN so that resolution is not representative of Kashmiri.


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## RamGorur

Since Pakistan's stand is clear, it therefore stands to reason that the stand is well known to all Pakistanis. So, what is Pakistan's stand on 'independence' of Kashmir? What is Pakistan's stand on NA being part of the 'dispute'? Since Pakistan wants plebiscite, what is Pakistan's stand on how to conduct such plebiscite? As per UN resolutions? In that case, what is Pakistan's stand on troop withdrawal or on the definition of 'local authority'?

Is there any white paper/communique or any other official document explaining these positions?

Enlighten us.


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## RollingStones

Omar1984 said:


> Kashmiri leaders rebuff abhorrent suggestions
> 
> 
> SRINAGAR: The Indian Muslim clergy which pitchforked itself in the Kashmiri crisis was in for a rebuff by the Kashmiri separatist leadership for their suggestions to deal with the dispute.
> 
> The powerful Jamiat Ulama-i-Hind, body of Deobandi clerics, at its Kashmir conference at Deoband on Sunday apart from stating that Kashmir was an integral part suggested that the issue be resolved within the parameters of the Indian constitution.
> 
> The stand 'abhorrent' to the Kashmir separatists was pooh- poohed by both the hard-line as well the moderate leaders of the conglomerate, All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) and the pro-independence Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF).
> 
> The hard-line separatist leader, Syed Ali Shah Geelani who is in the vanguard of the over four-month-long pro-independence unrest in Kashmir which has claimed 110 lives and left hundreds wounded, trashed the suggestion saying *the conference had ignored the root cause of the problem which had raised questions over the bonafides of the conference itself.*
> 
> *The conference should have taken into consideration the pledges made by Indian leadership to allow the people of Kashmir decide their future- a fact even been acknowledged by the international community, he added.*
> 
> We dont agree with the suggestion that Kashmir issue be resolved within the frame work of the Indian constitution,  the moderate APHC chairman, Mirwaiz Moulvi Umar Farooq said.
> 
> *There are three parties to the dispute, India, Pakistan and Kashmiris. All the three parties have to be involved to find a solution to the problem.
> 
> The issue which has been a subject of several UN resolutions cannot be resolved within the Indian constitution, Mirwaiz told Arab News.*
> 
> *"I appeal to the Indian Muslims not to get involved about the political part of the Kashmir problem as we fully understand their limitations, pro-independence Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) front chairman Yasin Malik said.*
> 
> The separatist leadership, however, thanked the clerics for having raised their voice against the human rights violations and for demanding revocation of the draconian Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA).
> 
> Another Muslim organization, Anjum Minhaj-e-Rasool has also pleaded for the resolution of the problem under the Indian constitution and asked the government to take immediately conciliatory measures to mollify the anger of Kashmiri people rather than using repressive force.
> 
> The chairman of the Anjuman, Athar Hussain Dehlvi also demanded the revocation of the AFSPA.
> 
> 
> 
> Kashmiri leaders rebuff ?abhorrent? suggestions - Arab News



This seems to be logical. I dont think these Kashmiri leaders are viewing it as a Muslim nationhood issue. Its just that they want to be in power rather than the dudes who currently are. All parties currently in power are going to resist that. The question is which Kashmiri side will win? I dont see this as a true struggle for independence, but as a power struggle between multiple parties. A true struggle for independence would have convinced the world by now, especially given all the "Indian atrocities" oft quoted here.


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## PakSher

Kashmir, Junagarh, UP and Hyderabad Deccan is integral parts of Pakistan.


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## RamGorur

Omar1984 said:


> *&#8220;The conference should have taken into consideration the pledges made by Indian leadership to allow the people of Kashmir decide their future- a fact even been acknowledged by the international community,&#8221; he added.*


The inconvenient part they deliberately suppress is that, the plebiscite was conditional to the withdrawal of Pakistan from its illegally occupied areas of Kashmir.



> &#8220;We don&#8217;t agree with the suggestion that Kashmir issue be resolved within the frame work of the Indian constitution, &#8221; the moderate APHC chairman, Mirwaiz Moulvi Umar Farooq said.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> &#8220;The issue which has been a subject of several UN resolutions cannot be resolved within the Indian constitution,&#8221; Mirwaiz told Arab News.[/B]


The idiot doesn't realize that a government can't act outside it's constitution even if there are 10 million Chapter VI UN resolutions. And if UN resolutions are to form the basis for resolving Kashmir issue, then it is Pakistan that has to take the initiative. Not India.

I guess that's why he is called a useful idiot.


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## Gabbar

PakSher said:


> Kashmir, Junagarh, UP and Hyderabad Deccan is integral parts of Pakistan.



What is this? Joke of the day contest going on here?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Omar1984 said:


> Then those 900 million hindus of india will be settling in Islamabad, Lahore, Karachi, Peshawar, and Quetta.
> 
> Pakistan's total population is just 175 million.
> 
> 
> Think before you speak. Uttar Pradesh, Mumbai, Tamil Nadu are not disputed, while Kashmir is a disputed territory recognized as disputed by the United Nations.



well said.


by the way, Islamabad; Lahore; and my neck of the woods (Peshawar) are fine as is. No demographic shifts needed or desired.

I want those cities to remain clean. 


the Kashmiri peoples are an integral part of Kashmir. They always will be. Until the issue is solved, it is a disputed territory. It will be treated thusly, not just by Pakistan, but the world. 







p.s. funny hindustanys should mention the deoband/JeU-H considering they issued a fatwa against their vande mutaram around this time last year.


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## toppys

PakSher said:


> Half of India will be integral part of Pakistan in the future.



you already have so many issues how will adding india help ;=)


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## LaBong

People read it S-L-O-W-L-Y so that you can remember it next time! 

*No one in India is forced to sing Vande Mataram, they can choose or choose not to sing Vande Mataram at their will. It's not been made national anthem because a large community of India has issues with it. *


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## toppys

Jana said:


> Kashmir is NOT part of India. Kashmir is country that is Troubled by India by invading it.
> 
> Kashmir struggle starts from the days of the tyrant Raja not 87.
> 
> 
> And for curfews you need to check the facts.



I think pakistan has a part of kashmir. You can start by making it country first. Then we follow. :=)


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## Abu Zolfiqar

large community being almost 150 million (maybe more?)

thanks for the update!


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## LaBong

toppys said:


> I think pakistan has a part of kashmir. You can start by making it country first. Then we follow. :=)



No you're horribly wrong! It's Azad Kashmir with different Constitution and etc(don't you dare to go detail of the constitution you evil hindustany!). 

And Gilgit Baltistan isn't a part of Kashmir. Period.

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## KS

RollingStones said:


> This seems to be logical. *I dont think these Kashmiri leaders are viewing it as a Muslim nationhood issue.* Its just that they want to be in power rather than the dudes who currently are. All parties currently in power are going to resist that. The question is which Kashmiri side will win? I dont see this as a true struggle for independence, but as a power struggle between multiple parties. A true struggle for independence would have convinced the world by now, especially given all the "Indian atrocities" oft quoted here.



Think again after going through these links.

Geelani rejects any unity with those advocating secularism 



> Echoing his mentor Maududi, Geelani argues that Kashmir, whether as an independent country, or, ideally, for him, as part of Pakistan, must become an &#8216;Islamic state'. &#8216;Our goal is the establishment of Islamic government ( islami hukumat )', he contends. [1] The &#8216;freedom', he says the Kashmiris are struggling for, &#8216;is for the sake of Islam'.



Syed Ali Shah Geelani And The Movement For
Political Self-Determination For Jammu And Kashmir

The autumn of Kashmir's Islamist patriarch?


Kashmir's new Islamist movement


===========================================

Kashmir *was* once a political struggle.But it had long ago changed into a religious struggle based on a flawed notion of religious intolerance.

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## All-Green

indianrabbit said:


> @Abu
> India entered Kashmir after it was called. The person who ordered the Army to March in Kashmir was a Kashmiri himself (Nehru is Kashmiri). There was no way Nehru could have checked each and every Kashmiri to ask if they want India to come.
> 
> For 40 years there was no demand for separation. That is good enough time to dispute a claim if party disagrees most of people now protesting were not even born in 1947. So we cannot have a plebiscite every time generation changes. *People in 1948 never protested for 40 years end of story*. Plebisite was between India and Pakistan only.



So when the people in the sub continent were demanding freedom from British Empire, same logic could have satisfied them?
Since it had been a century, the British should have said that most of the states and people did not protest and hence British Raj is the will of the people?
Things are not that simple and sometimes it takes decades before differences in opinion arise and political awareness and awakening occurs which determine the course of a people.

Sadly this is not the end of the story for Kashmiris.
The Kashmiri people in Indian part of Kashmir are out in numbers and protesting against Indian state oppression for many reasons.
One does not see the same thing happening in Pakistani part of Kashmir.
That is the fact of the matter.

If the Kashmiris in India are truly content then they cannot have so much to protest about, especially since India is the economic giant and Pakistan is the struggling economy.
So why do the Kashmiris protest?
It has to be some deep resentment and a breach of trust which has taken decades to worsen to the point that Kashmiris are now openly protesting.

To not see this as a Kashmiri protest and call it a Pakistani sponsored one is quite a stretch of imagination, however this has been the grand conclusion drawn by most in India. Many cite the relative political inactivity of Kashmiris after partition as a reason that Kashmiris should just shut up now...it is not a simple thing and shutting the Kashmiris up by force would worsen the situation, however this seems to be the current mindset in Non Kashmiri India.

India has maintained that only the militants are the problem and they are foreign elements and have no local support, instead they are terrorizing the locals.
These are not militants or foreigners who are in the streets, that much is clearly evident.
This proves that ordinary Kashmiri indeed has some serious issues with India and is not happy despite being part of such a booming economy.


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## fast and furious

SinoPak said:


> KASHMIR BANEGA PAKISTAN!



Hum tumharey saath hain.
Kitne saal saath dena padega bus ye baata do bhai.


BTW why the chinese flag.You sure China is going to help.Or are you more than aware that you cant do it alone, since you could not do it for last 60+ years.


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## prototype

gubbi said:


> And what that stand exactly is?
> 
> On one hand Pakistan calls for 'plebiscite' without honoring its commitment to UN resolutions, and on the other Pakistan claims that "Kashmir should have been/is ours".
> 
> Oh the ambiguity of Pakistan's "moral diplomacy"!



anyway who care what is their stand,Kashmir is with us and will remain so,while all the Pakistani's can live in a land of illusion that it will b theirs 1 day

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## twoplustwoisfour

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Talking to media after chairing a meeting of standing committee for foreign affairs, Qureshi said that India has been told in equivocal terms that the next session of dialogue *should not be result-oriented *instead of mere photo session.



Is my english screwed up or is it the so called journalist?

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## TaimiKhan

malaymishra123 said:


> Keep crying and keep holding protests, Pakistani populace has a passion for holding protests for any issue anywhere on the globe!
> 
> Meanwhile India doesnt give a damn and keeps forging ahead.



Correction plzzz, Meanwhile India doesnt give a damn and keeps on *killing the innocent and dumping them in graves.*

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## Mirza Jatt

*Curfew lifted from almost entire Kashmir Valley*

Barring Sopore town, curfew was on Wednesday lifted from the entire Kashmir Valley but normal life was disrupted due to a strike called by hardline faction of Hurriyat Conference.

Curfew has been lifted from entire Kashmir Valley this morning except some places in Sopore town, a police spokesman said here.

He said curfew remained in force in Shalipora, Ashpeer, Iqbal Colony, Chankhan and Neharpora areas of the apple town, 52 kms from here.

Curfew was imposed late on Monday night to thwart a planned march by separatists to the Hyderpora residence of hardline Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani on Tuesday.

Normal life was today hit due to a strike called by the hardline faction of Hurriyat as part of its protest calendar.

Shops, banks, private offices and business establishments were closed while public transport was off the roads, official sources said.

However, private vehicles were seen plying on the roads in large numbers and educational institutions were open in view of the annual examinations.

Security force personnel have been deployed at sensitive spots in the city following reports that some elements were planning to disrupt peace in these areas, the sources said.

The Hindu : News / National : Curfew lifted from almost entire Kashmir Valley


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## SpArK

*Two special task forces for Jammu, Ladakh constituted​*
*The Government has constituted two special task forces for Jammu and Ladakh regions to examine the allocations in terms of infrastructure needs and make suitable recommendations to overcome the deficiencies.*

While Abhijit Sen, a Planning Commission member, will be leading a task force on Jammu, Narendra Jadhav, another Planning Commission member, will be the chairperson of the team on Ladakh, an official notification said on Wednesday.

It said the two task forces have been constituted keeping in view the immediate objectives to maintain peace and order and defuse the situation through confidence building measures.

The decision on forming of three task forces was taken at a meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security headed by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on September 25.

The terms and references of the two task forces would be to identify the special development needs of the region and suggest measures to address them and to examine allocations to the regions in terms of infrastructure needs. They will make suitable recommendations to overcome the deficiencies.

The task forces have been given three months to submit their reports.

Besides Sen, the other members for Jammu task force are Joint Secretary, (Plan Finance-I), Ministry of Finance, Department of Expenditure, Divisional Commissioner (Jammu), Dr Najeeb Jung, Vice Chancellor, Jamia Millia Islamia University and Dr Amaresh Dubey, Prof of Economics, Centre for the Study of Regional Development, School of Social Sciences, JNU. Joint Secretary (Kashmir), Ministry of Home Affairs will be the Convenor.

Besides Jhadav, the task force on Ladakh will comprise Joint Secretary, (Plan Finance-II), Ministry of Finance, Department of Expenditure, Divisional Commissioner, Kashmir, Prof Akhtar Majeed, Director, Centre for Federal Studies and Dean, Faculty of Social Sciences, Hamdard University, Dr Navnita Chadha Behera, Department of Political Science, University of Delhi as members and Director (Kashmir), Ministry of Home Affairs as Convener.

The task forces may co-opt officers of the state government and such other officers of the Central and State Governments as and when necessary. They include Commissioner and Secretary to state government, Principal Secretary, Planning, Development and Ladakh Affairs and Principal Secretary to the Chief Minister.

The notification said the task forces shall be provided with all possible assistance by Ministries and Departments and other agencies under the Central and State Governments to facilitate its task.

The Chairperson and Members shall be treated as state guests during their period of stay and work in the state.

The non-official members shall be entitled to sitting fees in addition. Travel and transportation facilities shall be as admissible to the highest grade of government employees.



The Hindu : News / National : Two special task forces for Jammu, Ladakh constiotuted


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## Contrarian

TaimiKhan said:


> Correction plzzz, Meanwhile India doesnt give a damn and keeps on *killing the innocent and dumping them in graves.*



Whatever your perception is-It does not really matter. As with time, India grows more powerful, there will be fewer countries who disagree with India. And the bargaining power of Pakistan vis-a-vis India will have reduced further.

Do you think Pakistan(or Islamists in Kashmir) can arm twist India into giving up Kashmir?
You must have realized that Pakistan's bargaining power or influence over India has been consistently declining over the decades. In the grand scheme of things, how does it matter at all.

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## S_O_C_O_M

*Geelani denounced curfew and restrictions in OSJK*​
TopNews 
Written by KMS 
Tuesday, 12 October 2010 18:40 







Srinagar, October 12, 2010: All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, in a statement issued in Srinagar strongly denouncing the imposition of curfew, said that such tactics could not suppress Kashmiris resolve to continue their struggle for right of self-determination.

The authorities imposed strict curfew in all major cities and towns to prevent people from conducting a march towards Hyderpora in Srinagar, today.

Call for the march had been given by Hurriyat leader, Masarrat Aalam Butt to protest against the restrictions imposed by Indian authorities on APHC Chairman, Syed Ali Geelani, who has been under house arrest for nearly a month.

Hundreds of Indian forces personals were deployed in every nook and corner of Srinagar and other towns to prevent people from coming out of their homes while all the roads leading to Hyderpora were sealed.

It is pertinent to mention that Syed Ali Geelani is under house arrest since Eid-ul-Fitr.

Masarrat Aalam Butt, the General Secretary of APHC has said that the ongoing "Quite Kashmir Movement" will continue till Kashmiris get their inalienable right of self-determination. Masarrat Aalam Butt in a statement issued in Srinagar strongly denounced the arrest of four persons in Shopian and invoking of the black law, Public Safety Act, against them. He also castigated the occupation authorities for enforcing continued curfew in Palhalan area of Pattan saying that such tactics could not deter the Kashmiris to continue their just struggle.

Masarrat Aalam Butt said that Pakistan is in the hearts of the Kashmiris, he hoped that the country would continue to render diplomatic and moral support to the Kashmir cause.

APHC leader Ghulam Ahmed Mir, addressing party workers at Thanamandi, said that India was committing heinous crimes against humanity in Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK).

The High Court Bar Association of OSJK in a meeting in Srinagar, with Vice President, Aijaz Bedar in chair, decided to continue the boycott of courts proceedings till the release of its President, Mian Abdul Qayoom, General Secretary, Ghulam Nabi Shaheen and the Bar member, Muhammad Shafi Reshi. In the meeting, the lawyers decided to hold demonstrations in all district courts on Thursday.

People took to the streets in Nasu area of Bandipore to protest against the thrashing of two youth by Indian forces. The Srinagar-based cable news operators staged a protest demonstration at Lal Chowk against the continued ban imposed by the authorities on the transmission of news and current affairs programmes.

An officer of Indian Central Reserve Police Force committed suicide by shooting himself with his service rifle at Camp Hall in Pulwama. This raised the number of such deaths amongst Indian troops and police personnel to 196 since January 2007.

The Jammu & Kashmir Peoples League (JKPL), a constituent of All Parties Hurriyat Conference, has said that Jammu and Kashmir is the UN-mandated disputed territory whose political future is yet to be ascertained.

APHC leader and the Acting Chairman of JKPL, Mukhtar Ahmad Waza in a statement said that Indias intransigent stance on Kashmir was main hurdle in settling the dispute. He maintained that former Indian Prime Minister, Jawahar Lal Nehrus words were still echoing when he said, We had given our pledge to the people of Kashmir and subsequently to the United Nations; we stood by it and we stand by it today. Let the people of Kashmir decide.

Mukhtar Waza appealed to the international community to impress upon New Delhi to resolve the dispute over Kashmir in accordance with the Kashmiris aspirations.

The Jammu and Kashmir Peoples Movement (JKPM), a constituent of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, has said that India is committing heinous crimes against humanity in OSJK.

Addressing party workers at Thanamandi, APHC leader and the JKPM Chairman, Ghulam Ahmed Mir, said that Indian troops had declared a war against innocent and unarmed people of the occupied territory which, if not stopped, could lead to a major humanitarian crisis.

The JKPM Chairman said that hospitals in Kashmir were running out of surgical stuff and lifesaving medicines. He said that by keeping the whole Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir under curfew, India had virtually declared an economic blockade against the people who were unable to obtain the basic necessities of life.

Ghulam Ahmed Mir called upon the international community to come forward and save the innocent Kashmiris from the brutal aggression of New Delhi. He said that the UN Security Council, which is guardian of the rights of the people, must break its silence and play its role for the immediate resolution of the lingering dispute, which had posed a threat to the peace and development of South Asia.

The APHC leader urged the United Nations to hold an emergency session of the Security Council to discuss fast deteriorating situation in the occupied territory.

A Budgam court has sent illegally detained APHC leader and the Chairman of Jammu and Kashmir National Front, Nayeem Ahmad Khan on 10-day judicial remand. Nayeem Khan was arrested on June 28 near Pattan when he was on way to Sopore to express solidarity with the families of four youth martyred by Indian troops in the town. He was lodged in Baramulla sub-jail.

On September 29, a court granted bail to the APHC leader, however, he was shifted by the police to Joint Interrogation Centre at Humhama. Subsequently, on October 6, he was presented by police before court, which granted him remand till October 11 (Monday). He was again produced before the court on Monday and was sent on judicial remand for 10 more days and was later lodged in Central Jail Srinagar.

On the other hand, Hurriyat leader, Muhammad Ashraf Laya was released on Monday after his detention order under the black law, Public Safety Act, was revoked. He has been booked under the PSA 12 times in past 30 years.

Talking to mediamen after his release, Muhammad Ashraf Laya, said that he would continue to fight for liberation of Kashmir from Indian occupation till last breath. We wouldnt be cowed down by arrests and harassment, he added.

Geelani denounced curfew and restrictions in OSJK


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## Srinivas

Jana said:


> Oh yeah thats why Kashmiri women came on roads with stones in hands to brave bullets fired by Indian terrorist army in occupied kashmir



Nice demonstration Jana it is better if the normal people of pakistan show some sympathy and support(if exists) in a peaceful way rather than supporting terror. *I welcome the change in the pakistans attitude using democratic means and dialogue is the best way to move forward.
*

Its time to talk about entire Jammu and kashmir which are under control of India, pakistan and China 

It is even better than the rally organized by terror groups


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## Pukhtoon

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *Geelani denounced curfew and restrictions in OSJK*​
> TopNews
> Written by KMS
> Tuesday, 12 October 2010 18:40




Look at the Picture there are some grenades on the ground The Person was using them against the Police or army thats why they are beating him i think ? isnt it ?


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## PakiiZeeshan

^^^ look's like friuts to me, lol

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## TaimiKhan

malaymishra123 said:


> Whatever your perception is-It does not really matter. As with time, India grows more powerful, there will be fewer countries who disagree with India. And the bargaining power of Pakistan vis-a-vis India will have reduced further.
> 
> Do you think Pakistan(or Islamists in Kashmir) can arm twist India into giving up Kashmir?
> You must have realized that Pakistan's bargaining power or influence over India has been consistently declining over the decades. In the grand scheme of things, how does it matter at all.



Well, whatever then you or perceive say also doesn't matter to us. 

Had there been no WoT / 9-11, things would have been different and you wouldn't have been saying what you are right now.

And the change has come just in the last decade that also after 9/11, before that, things were different.


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## dabong1

jade1982 said:


> Are you serious.UN is just a joke and waste on tax payers money. It could not even stop Myanmar Junta from persecuting Aung San Suu Kyi. It could not even stop North Korea from exploding the bomb. It could not even stop Israel from attacking Flotilla.and you expect...tell me one country that respects UN and you will find none. It has just become a podium for diatribes.
> 
> Off late it has even lost its legitimacy by allowing itself to be used by powerful countries for furthering their interests. It gave legitimacy to illegal war of America on Iraq and to unnecessary sanctions against Iran. It gave legitimacy to powerful countries remain powerful.
> 
> As your avatar says UN is truly Unable and it powerless to oversee anything



India has lost its legitimacy by allowing itself to be used by powerful groups for furthering their own interests. It gave legitimacy to the illegal killings in kashmir,destruction of babri masjid,sikh massacre ect and is unnecessary threatening pakistan.
You indians are quick to forget that is was your govt that took the issue of kashmir to india......can we also ignore the UN labelling LeT as a terrorist group?


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## karan.1970

dabong1 said:


> India has lost its legitimacy by allowing itself to be used by powerful groups for furthering their own interests. It gave legitimacy to the illegal killings in kashmir,destruction of babri masjid,sikh massacre ect and is unnecessary threatening pakistan.
> You indians are quick to forget that is was your govt that took the issue of kashmir to india......*can we also ignore the UN labelling LeT as a terrorist group*?




As if...

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## dabong1

Karthic Sri said:


> You forgot Tamil Nadu.
> 
> I also need freedom from these evil Bhartis.
> 
> BTW you need to google abt separatist movments in Arunachal Pradesh and Meghalaya..if there are any.



I dont know what a "evil Bhartis" is but we can either stick to kashmir that your govt and every other nation and international org accept as a disputed area or we can move into arguing about states in each other countries that accepted being part of pakistan or india.


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## karan.1970

Pride said:


> Whatta Logic? :facepalm:
> 
> According to your logic.. give KP to Afghanistan as that is more near to center of Afghanistan and pretty easily accessible from Kabul.



Also may be Alaska given to Canada (or Russia)

Poor Sarah Palin


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## KS

dabong1 said:


> I dont know what a "evil Bhartis" is but we can either stick to kashmir *that your govt and every other nation *and international org accept as a disputed area or we can move into arguing about states in each other countries that accepted being part of pakistan or india.



My nation has never accpeted that Jammu and Kashmir is disputed..Maybe they said that the other kashmir is disputed and you mis-understood it.

And apart from Azerbaijan which nation reiterated its support to Pakistan or for that matter the Kashmiris overlooking India's concerns.?


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## Jade

dabong1 said:


> India has lost its legitimacy by allowing itself to be used by powerful groups for furthering their own interests. It gave legitimacy to the illegal killings in kashmir,destruction of babri masjid,sikh massacre ect and is unnecessary threatening pakistan.
> You indians are quick to forget that is was your govt that took the issue of kashmir to india......can we also ignore the UN labelling LeT as a terrorist group?





and LET is terrorist group...any doubts?


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## TaimiKhan

Karthic Sri said:


> My nation has never accpeted that Jammu and Kashmir is disputed..Maybe they said that the other kashmir is disputed and you mis-understood it.
> 
> And apart from Azerbaijan which nation reiterated its support to Pakistan or for that matter the Kashmiris overlooking India's concerns.?



Indians still stuck on Azerbaijan.

Had your nation not accepted it to be disputed, then Nehru uncle would not have promised the Kashmiris their right for plebiscite and free will to let the Kashmiris decide what they want. 

Its something else if you people don't accept Nehru or discard him to be one of your leaders. 

Plus, we have sufficient proof in the UN resolutions which make it pretty much a disputable territory. 

Man, when Indians go on overdrive about Kashmir, they pretty much forget lot of things.


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## KS

TaimiKhan said:


> Indians still stuck on Azerbaijan.
> 
> Had your nation not accepted it to be disputed, then Nehru uncle would not have promised the Kashmiris their right for plebiscite and free will to let the Kashmiris decide what they want.



Nehru uncle promised 63 years ago.Much water has flown down the bridge,two full scale wars,one covert inflitration attempt,a full blown insurgency with the help of cross border patrons.They didn change the borders.So what makes you believe any other thing in the future will.?

Also India has not violated the UN *non-binding* resolutions more than Pakistan.

So ppl move on.



TaimiKhan said:


> Its something else if you people don't accept Nehru or discard him to be one of your leaders.
> 
> Plus, we have sufficient proof in the UN resolutions which make it pretty much a disputable territory.



Please present all the sufficient proof on the relevant fora and ask the international community (those who matter) to pressure India.But wait,they dont do that ..rite.?



TaimiKhan said:


> Man, when Indians go on overdrive about Kashmir, they pretty much forget lot of things.



Ahem...we havent forgotten Op.Gibralter,Kargil,Kashmir terrorism etc.


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## KS

TaimiKhan said:


> Well, whatever then you or perceive say also doesn't matter to us.
> 
> *Had there been no WoT / 9-11, things would have been different and you wouldn't have been saying what you are right now.*
> 
> And the change has come just in the last decade that also after 9/11, before that, things were different.



Cmon....and many here call Indians as living in a delusional world.

isnt this just like saying if my aunty had...........................................

BTW they have happened and it is better if we learn to live with it.

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## Hulk

All-Green said:


> So when the people in the sub continent were demanding freedom from British Empire, same logic could have satisfied them?
> Since it had been a century, the British should have said that most of the states and people did not protest and hence British Raj is the will of the people?
> Things are not that simple and sometimes it takes decades before differences in opinion arise and political awareness and awakening occurs which determine the course of a people.
> 
> Sadly this is not the end of the story for Kashmiris.
> The Kashmiri people in Indian part of Kashmir are out in numbers and protesting against Indian state oppression for many reasons.
> One does not see the same thing happening in Pakistani part of Kashmir.
> That is the fact of the matter.
> 
> If the Kashmiris in India are truly content then they cannot have so much to protest about, especially since India is the economic giant and Pakistan is the struggling economy.
> So why do the Kashmiris protest?
> It has to be some deep resentment and a breach of trust which has taken decades to worsen to the point that Kashmiris are now openly protesting.
> 
> To not see this as a Kashmiri protest and call it a Pakistani sponsored one is quite a stretch of imagination, however this has been the grand conclusion drawn by most in India. Many cite the relative political inactivity of Kashmiris after partition as a reason that Kashmiris should just shut up now...it is not a simple thing and shutting the Kashmiris up by force would worsen the situation, however this seems to be the current mindset in Non Kashmiri India.
> 
> India has maintained that only the militants are the problem and they are foreign elements and have no local support, instead they are terrorizing the locals.
> These are not militants or foreigners who are in the streets, that much is clearly evident.
> This proves that ordinary Kashmiri indeed has some serious issues with India and is not happy despite being part of such a booming economy.



By your logic AJK is also occupied, since protest can happen later.


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## Indian9

Border said:


> And come on!!
> The change in India(military and economy wise) also came in the last decade and a half ago or so...
> 
> If we had started modernizing when China began,we would have been ahead of them!
> We have progressed so much in a decade and a half and are already recognized as an Asian power.
> You ll see by yourself,how India transforms in the next decade or so...(specially when enormous growth was observed in the last 4-5 years)



Yep, you're right. India started 15-20 years late! We should have started in the 1970s, then we would have been in an even better position now! And even in 1991, it was near-bankruptcy that forced us to open our economy 

That said, the point that many Indian posters here are making is very valid. I hope Pakistan realizes that they need to sit at the table and work out a middle path such as converting LOC to border, instead of playing the same old broken record! In addition they should stop their 'strategic depth' and other provocative stealth measures!


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## mattoo

The UN resolution referred to an undivided Pakistan that was a different entity than it is today. The successors to that Pakistan is today's Bangladesh and what remains of western Pakistan and calls itself Pakistan today.

So any reference to that resolution is inadmissible today since the parties to the dispute have changed.

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## karan.1970

TaimiKhan said:


> Its something else if you people don't accept Nehru or discard him to be one of your leaders.



I know democracy is a less understood concept in Pakistan, but unlike dictatorships, in democracy, leaders are not above the people. And the people of India have spoken about Kashmir. Do whatever you will with that..

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## MYSTIC

mattoo said:


> The UN resolution referred to an undivided Pakistan that was a different entity than it is today. The successors to that Pakistan is today's Bangladesh and what remains of western Pakistan and calls itself Pakistan today.
> 
> So any reference to that resolution is inadmissible today since the parties to the dispute have changed.



hmm. interesting. I never thought it in this way. Bangladesh should have the same claim as Pakistan. But it does not matter. Bangladesh has not claimed any part of Kashmir.


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## karan.1970

mattoo said:


> The UN resolution referred to an undivided Pakistan that was a different entity than it is today. The successors to that Pakistan is today's Bangladesh and what remains of western Pakistan and calls itself Pakistan today.
> 
> So any reference to that resolution is inadmissible today since the parties to the dispute have changed.



Interesting. Does Pakistan now need a No Objection certificate ( ) from Bangladesh to pursue the Kashmir matter in the UN?


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## Indian9

Omar1984 said:


> Kashmir is much more a Pakistani land than an indian land. Muslim majority Kashmir is far from the center of india, while its attached to Pakistan and is just a few miles away from the capital of Pakistan, Islamabad.



The most nonsense argument I have heard from any Pakistani on any forum, till date. Give Afghanistan their land of Pashtuns first, and then your nonsense arguments will have some credibility.

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## MYSTIC

HAIDER said:


> India is shooting its own foot. Pakistan and China wants to keep India busy in Kashmir ,on the other side of political coin, India is losing its grip on other states. 20 percent of India is lawless. Communist are slowly taking over huge chunk of India. Where army need to play its role to control armed insurgency is not thier. Indian army is totally concentrating on Kashmir and few sensitive Indo-China post.



The maoist war used be against corruption and under-development. Lately they have acting like dacoits. They have started to attack civilians. Before it used to be just government properties. It is not a separatist movement with cross border infiltration like Kashmir. The home ministry has made it clear that the army will not be used to crush the maoist rebellion.


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## MYSTIC

Omar1984 said:


> Kashmir is much more a Pakistani land than an indian land. Muslim majority Kashmir is far from the center of india, while its attached to Pakistan and is just a few miles away from the capital of Pakistan, Islamabad.



By that logic you should claim Uighur province in China as well. Illogical.


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## mehboobkz

> By that logic you should claim Uighur province in China as well. Illogical.




Who will bell the chinese cat? Certainly not Pakistan!


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## RamGorur

mattoo said:


> The UN resolution referred to an undivided Pakistan that was a different entity than it is today. The successors to that Pakistan is today's Bangladesh and what remains of western Pakistan and calls itself Pakistan today.
> 
> So any reference to that resolution is inadmissible today since the parties to the dispute have changed.


That is the current BR bull$hit.

The same way as India _inherited_ British India, and Pakistan(undivided) became a new domain, requiring fresh application to be the member at UN, Pakistan(current) _inherited_ - if I can use that term - western half of Pakistan(undivided), while Bangladesh became a new domain, _inheriting _eastern half of Pakistan(undivided), requiring fresh application to be the member of UN. Accordingly all outstanding disputes/legal obligations, concerning the western half of Pakistan(undivided) continued to be Pakistan's (current) liability while those concerning the eastern half of Pakistan (undivided) became Bangladesh's liability.

I hope you are not saying that IWT also comes under Bangladesh's purview, since, if I'm not mistaken, IWT refers to Pakistan and not West Pakistan.


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## mattoo

karan.1970 said:


> Interesting. Does Pakistan now need a No Objection certificate ( ) from Bangladesh to pursue the Kashmir matter in the UN?



Well, if the Pakistanis want to hold us to the book, we can play the same game just as well. 

There's no such thing as a NOC that applies to international disputes. 

From what I understand, UN resolution 47 refers to two parties as defined by that date in 21 Apr 1948. Of those two parties, one does not exist as of now. The rump state of what used to be "West Pakistan" may claim to be the successor, but India has to recognize that first.

We have no incentive to do that. The alternative (for Pakistan) is to get the UN to pass a fresh resolution. Good luck with that.


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## RamGorur

TaimiKhan said:


> Had your nation not accepted it to be disputed, then Nehru uncle would not have promised the Kashmiris their right for plebiscite and free will to let the Kashmiris decide what they want.


Nehru uncle didn't promise plebiscite as a result of our nation accepting it to be disputed. He did that long before partition and continuously argued in favour of people's choice over ruler's choice even before Junagadh or Kashmir became a bone of contention, or before he went to UN. It was the grand daddy of Pakistan who continuously refused to accept the principle of plebiscite.

Talk of _ulta chor kotwal ko datein_.



> Plus, we have sufficient proof in the UN resolutions which make it pretty much a disputable territory.


Mind you, claim of 'sufficient proof' is yours. Now back up the following. Where did UN question the sovereignty of Kashmir?


> Man, when Indians go on overdrive about Kashmir, they pretty much forget lot of things.


Yeah right.


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## mattoo

RamGorur said:


> Accordingly all outstanding disputes/legal obligations, concerning the western half of Pakistan(undivided) continued to be Pakistan's (current) liability while those concerning the eastern half of Pakistan (undivided) became Bangladesh's liability.



It is not automatic like you imply. India is required, as is Bangladesh to ratify that they recognize the successor state as such. Like I mention, in this case, we have no incentive to comply.



RamGorur said:


> I hope you are not saying that IWT also comes under Bangladesh's purview, since, if I'm not mistaken, IWT refers to Pakistan and not West Pakistan.



Good counterpoint. Again, India has chosen out of goodwill, to adhere to the IWT even during wars and conflicts. Not out of force, out of goodwill. That does not translate into automatic recognition. If Pakistan wants to renegotiate IWT, as the talk goes over there, they will start from a fresh slate. 

New player, new rules.


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## RamGorur

mattoo said:


> From what I understand, UN resolution 47 refers to two parties as defined by that date in 21 Apr 1948.


Except for the introductory part of that resolution, leading to the appointment of UNMOGIP, the rest became inoperative after resolution of 13th Aug, 1948 and 5 Jan, 1949.



> The rump state of what used to be "West Pakistan" may claim to be the successor, but India has to recognize that first.


You mean India still needs to recognize the western part of erstwhile Pakistan as current Pakistan? Really?

UN resolutions are dead as dodo, but not for the reasons you mentioned.


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## RamGorur

mattoo said:


> It is not automatic like you imply. India is required, as is Bangladesh to ratify that they recognize the successor state as such. Like I mention, in this case, we have no incentive to comply.
> 
> 
> 
> Good counterpoint. Again, India has chosen out of goodwill, to adhere to the IWT even during wars and conflicts. Not out of force, out of goodwill. That does not translate into automatic recognition. If Pakistan wants to renegotiate IWT, as the talk goes over there, they will start from a fresh slate.
> 
> New player, new rules.


I will not go into the legal details but mention just this - Pakistan has its own embassy in India. Do you know, when and how a country can have an embassy in another country?


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## VCheng

UN Resolution #47 text:

*Adopted by the Security Council at its 286th meeting, on 21 April 1948 *

*The Security Council,*

Having considered the complaint of the Government of India concerning the dispute over the State of Jammu and Kashmir,

Having heard the representative of India in support of that complaint and the reply and counter-complaints of the representative of Pakistan,

Being strongly of the opinion that the early restoration of peace and order in Jammu and Kashmir is essential and that India and Pakistan should do their utmost to bring about a cessation of all fighting,

Noting with satisfaction that both India and Pakistan declare that the question of the accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India or Pakistan should be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite,

Considering that the continuation of the dispute is likely to endanger international peace and security,

*Reaffirms its resolution 38 (1948) of 17 January 1948;*

*Resolves *that the membership of the Commission established by its resolution 39 (1948) of 20 January 1948 shall be increased to five and shall include, in addition to the membership mentioned in that resolution, representatives of . . . and . . . , and that if the membership of the Commission has not been completed within ten days from the date of the adoption of this resolution the President of the Security Council may nominate such other Member or Members of the United Nations as are required to complete the membership of five;

*Instructs *the Commission to proceed at once to the Indian subcontinent and there place its good offices and mediation at the disposal of the Governments of India and Pakistan with a view to facilitating the taking of the necessary measures, both with respect to the restoration of peace and order and to the holding of a plebiscite, by the two Governments, acting in co-operation with one another and with the Commission, and further instructs the Commission to keep the Council informed of the action taken under the resolution; and, to this end,

*Recommends *to the Governments of India and Pakistan the following measures as those which in the opinion of the Council are appropriate to bring about a cessation of the fighting and to create proper conditions for a free and impartial plebiscite to decide whether the State of Jammu and Kashmir is to accede to India or Pakistan:

*A. Restoration of peace and order*

1. The Government of Pakistan should undertake to use its best endeavours:

(a) To secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting, and to prevent any intrusion into the State of such elements and any furnishing of material aid to those fighting in the State; 

(b) To make known to all concerned that the measures indicated in this and the following paragraphs provide full freedom to all subjects of the State, regardless of creed, caste or party, to express their views and to vote on the question of the accession of the State, and that therefore they should co-operate in the maintenance of peace and order. 

2. The Government of India should:

(a) When it is established to the satisfaction of the Commission set up in accordance with the Council's resolution 39 (1948) that the tribesmen are withdrawing and that arrangements for the cessation of the fighting have become effective, put into operation in consultation with the Commission a plan for withdrawing their own forces from Jammu and Kashmir and reducing them progressively to the minimum strength required for the support of the civil power in the maintenance of law and order; 

(b) Make known that the withdrawal is taking place in stages and announce the completion of each stage; 

(c) When the Indian forces have been reduced to the minimum strength mentioned in (a) above, arrange in consultation with the Commission for the stationing of the remaining forces to be carried out in accordance with the following principles: 

(i) That the presence of troops should not afford any intimidation or appearance of intimidation to the inhabitants of the State; 
(ii) That as small a number as possible should be maintained in forward areas; 
(iii) That any reserve of troops which may be included in the total strength should be located within their present base area. 

3. The Government of India should agree that until such time as the Plebiscite Administration referred to below finds it necessary to exercise the powers of direction and supervision over the State forces and police provided for in paragraph 8, they will be held in areas to be agreed upon with the Plebiscite Administrator.

4. After the plan referred to in paragraph 2 (a) above has been put into operation, personnel recruited locally in each district should so far as possible be utilized for the re-establishment and maintenance of law and order with due regard to protection of minorites, subject to such additional requirements as may be specified by the Plebiscite Administration referred to in paragraph 7.

5. If these local forces should be found to be inadequate, the Commission, subject to the agreement of both the Government of India and the Government of Pakistan, should arrange for the use of such forces of either Dominion as it deems effective for the purpose of pacification.

*B. Plebiscite*

6. The Government of India should undertake to ensure that the Government of the State invite the major political groups to designate responsible representatives to share equitably and fully in the conduct of the administration at the ministerial level while the plebiscite is being prepared and carried out.

7. The Government of India should undertake that there will be established in Jammu and Kashmir a Plebiscite Administration to hold a plebiscite as soon as possible on the accession of the State to India or Pakistan.

8. The Government of India should undertake that there will be delegated by the State to the Plebiscite Administration such powers as the latter considers necessary for holding a fair and impartial plebiscite including, for that purpose only, the direction and supervision of the State forces and police.

9. The Government of India should, at the request of the Plebiscite Administration, make available from the Indian forces such assistance as the Plebiscite Administration may require for the performance of its functions.

10. (a) The Government of India should agree that a nominee of the Secretary-General of the United Nations will be appointed to be the plebiscite administrator.

(b) The Plebiscite Administrator, acting as an officer of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, should have authority to nominate his assistance and other subordinates and to draft regulations governing the plebiscite. Such nominees should be formally appointed and such draft regulations should be formally promulgated by the State of Jammu and Kashmir. 

(c) The Government of India should understand that the Government of Jammu and Kashmir will appoint fully qualified persons nominated by the Plebiscite Administrator to act as special magistrates within the State judicial system to hear cases which in the opinion of the Plebiscite Administrator have a serious bearing on the preparation for and the conduct of a free and impartial plebiscite. 

(d) The terms of service of the Administrator should form the subject of a separate negotiation between the Secretary-General of the United Nations and the Government of India. The Administrator should fix the terms of service for his assistants and subordinates. 

(e) The Administrator should have the right to communicate directly with the Government of the State and with the Commission of the Security Council and, through the Commission, with the Security Council, with their Governments of India and Pakistan and with their representatives on the Commission. It would be his duty to bring to the notice of any or all of the foregoing (as he in his discretion may decide) any circumstances arising which may tend, in his opinion, to interfere with the freedom of the plebiscite. 

11. The Government of India should undertake to prevent, and to give full support to the Administrator and his staff in preventing, any threat, coercion or intimidation, bribery or other undue influence on the voters in the plebiscite, and the Government of India should publicly announce and should cause the Government of the State to announce this undertaking as an international obligation binding on all public authorities and officials in Jammu and Kashmir.

12. The Government of India should themselves and through the Government of the State declare and make known that that all subjects of the state of Jammu and Kashmir, regardless of creed, caste or party, will be safe and free in expressing their views and in voting on the question of the accession of the State and that there will be freedom of the press, speech and assembly and freedom of travel in the State, including freedom of lawful entry and exit.

13. The Government of India should use and should ensure that the Government of the State also use their best endeavours to effect the withdrawal from the State of all Indian nationals other than those who are normally resident therein or who on or since 15 August 1947 have entered it for a lawful purpose.

14. The Government of India should ensure that the Government of the State releases all political prisoners and take all possible steps so that:

(a) All citizens of the State who have left it on account of disturbances are invited, and are free, to return to their homes and to exercise their rights as such citizens; 

(b) There is no victimization; 

(c) Minorities in all parts of the State are accorded adequate protection. 

15. The Commission of the Security Council should at the end of the plebiscite certify to the Council whether the plebiscite has or has not been really free and impartial.

*C. General provisions*

16. The Governments of India and Pakistan should each be invited to nominate a representative to be attached to the Commission for such assistance as it may require in the performance of its task.

17. The Commission should establish in Jammu and Kashmir such observers as it may require of any of the proceedings in pursuance of the measures indicated in the foregoing paragraphs.

18. The Security Council Commission should carry out the tasks assigned to it herein.


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## RamGorur

^^ Congrats. You know how to copy paste. Now buy yourself some candy.


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## Subramanian

Areesh said:


> Thanks to you and other Indians that have admitted that their was bloodshed and genocide by India in IOK for past sixty years and it was not 1987 revolt after which things gone worst. Thanks for this admission Karan and other Indians. It was really unexpected. I was talking about the killings of youth in past three months but you admitted that you are killing Kashmiris for the past sixty years. Thanks again.



I dont think so.The army presence increased in the valley only after 1987.The issue was very legitimate as long the pandits lived there peacefully.The moment Muslims started slaughtering the pandits India had to increase its military presence and i dont think the kashmiri muslims have any right to object to this.the moment you make the issue religious you start taking sides with pakistan over india.It is their fault that they chose to sleep with the army in their backyards.

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## Subramanian

Tuahaa said:


> Then why did the opposite happen with Junagadh?



I ll tell u the crux of the whole problem.Despite all this secular bollocks,hindus of india hate islam from the bottom of their hearts.All this country from the Afghanistan to Bangladesh was all hindu country in all forms.Muslims are aliens.so we dont want to give up any piece of our land to them.The ones who are already there are free to live in peace with us,if they trust us.so whether Kashmir or Junagadh,it is all ours.we dont agree with this idea of partition.It was the case back then and it ll always be the case.Because unlike muslims our religion and lifestyle is based on this tropical land and this is what we worship.All our gods and their qualities that we admire is all ultimatelty our respect shown for our motherland and that ll always be the essence of hindu people.Thats why.


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## Subramanian

third eye said:


> No, Pak must never surrender its position for it is the only issue the nation agrees on and is a neutral subject for all parties who run the nation ( ISI,Army, fundamentalists and occasionally some odd Pol party, in that order ) can agree without treading on each others toes.
> 
> Pak must never give up its stance on J&K for it would then run the risk of disintegrating. Disintegration of Pak would not be a good option for the region & the world.
> 
> J&K gives PA a reason to stay in control .
> 
> No. Of the two options , holding on to its stand on J&K is better. Helps channelize energies.
> 
> In any case, the dream of utopia often is better than achieving it.



Disintegration of pakistan wont harm anything.It ll cause an imbalance in the region as India ll have 2 Afghanistans nearby with hard core jihadi elements controlling it and this ll polarise the sub continent bigtime.but pakistan was never stable.Democracy was never there in pakistan and the army always had the upper edge in the functioning.It was always a military state with more dictators than democratically elected heads of state.

The pakistani civil society has been the biggest failure as they never help build a stable state.


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## VCheng

Subramanian said:


> I ll tell u the crux of the whole problem.Despite all this secular bollocks,hindus of india hate islam from the bottom of their hearts.All this country from the Afghanistan to Bangladesh was all hindu country in all forms.Muslims are aliens.so we dont want to give up any piece of our land to them.The ones who are already there are free to live in peace with us,if they trust us.so whether Kashmir or Junagadh,it is all ours.we dont agree with this idea of partition.It was the case back then and it ll always be the case.Because unlike muslims our religion and lifestyle is based on this tropical land and this is what we worship.All our gods and their qualities that we admire is all ultimatelty our respect shown for our motherland and that ll always be the essence of hindu people.Thats why.



Un petite question:

In addition to the above, is it also your contention that natives who lived here for thousands of years but converted to another religion no longer belong to the land by virtue of their personal beliefs?

This begs another question:

How does this unsupportable contention then extend to the multitude of religions that have existed for thousands of years in the sub-continent?

Your original post is therefore incorrect on mutiple levels.


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## VCheng

RamGorur said:


> ^^ Congrats. You know how to copy paste. Now buy yourself some candy.



You would be surprised at what else I know how to do! 

Now lemme go find me some candy! 

Calm down dude, the text is there so that some of us may gain something from reading the Resolution directly, and do something that is alien to quite a lot of posters here: *THINK*!

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## Subramanian

VCheng said:


> Un petite question:
> 
> In addition to the above, is it also your contention that natives who lived here for thousands of years but converted to another religion no longer belong to the land by virtue of their personal beliefs?
> 
> This begs another question:
> 
> How does this unsupportable contention then extend to the multitude of religions that have existed for thousands of years in the sub-continent?
> 
> Your original post is therefore incorrect on mutiple levels.




Our rulers were all muslim since 1000 years and until 1850,that was the case.

The people are entitled to their rights,no doubt.

And buddhism,jainism,sikhism and many tribal religions have always co existed in india but the book religions of islam and christianity are the only ones to have a problem in co-existing peacefully.Does it ring a bell bro?

Of all these religions,it is only muslims who claim themselves to be different and this and that.How is it the case that 10&#37; of the population think they are too cool to be with other people?i cant get the idea behind this.

we dont like our motherland to be partitioned and given to invaders who kept themselves aloof from the rest of the population.

and then why do the Jatts and Khatris of punjab get slaughtered by their own naukars and workmen.why shud they give up their land bro.Is it their problem the muslims of punjab dont have a real hobby and instead indulge in reproduction.why do these numbers play a role.

Why should india protect their minority rights when pakistan is slaughtering their minorities off into subjugation.

why is Lahore,an 85% non-muslim city gets evacuated and is thrown to the wolves.

There are too many whys here in partition?and if u forget indian bureaucracy and army is full of Punjabis and haryanvi Jats,the ones u slaughtered ur way to glory.


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## karan.1970

Jana said:


> Kashmir was not given to India. Infact Kashmiris were NEVER ask what they want.
> 
> The India forced the mahraja to sign joining India as condition to send its forces to defend Kashmir *against rebellion*.



You mean the terrorists that came in from Pakistan to loot and **** Kashmiris and force them into submission. So intent were they on looting and raping that they stopped short of Srinagar and wasted a large amount of time indulging in those activities. That gave Maharaja time to acceed to India and Indian forces to intervene and stop the irregular army in their tracks.


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## mattoo

RamGorur said:


> I will not go into the legal details but mention just this - Pakistan has its own embassy in India. Do you know, when and how a country can have an embassy in another country?



AFAIK, after the fall of Dhaka, (rump state of formerly western) Pakistan withdrew all embassy staff. The chanceries at Mumbai (then Bombay) and Delhi were evacuated and full relations were restored in August 1974. 

The chanceries were then given to the new embassy staff. This is something interesting that even I did not know until I asked certain relations of mine in the diplomatic corps (now retd.).

Point being, all relations with undivided Pakistan were renegotiated on fresh terms. As the victor of the 71 conflict, it was India's prerogative to act as such.


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## VCheng

Subramanian said:


> Our rulers were all muslim since 1000 years and until 1850,that was the case.
> 
> The people are entitled to their rights,no doubt.
> 
> And buddhism,jainism,sikhism and many tribal religions have always co existed in india but the book religions of islam and christianity are the only ones to have a problem in co-existing peacefully.Does it ring a bell bro?
> 
> Of all these religions,it is only muslims who claim themselves to be different and this and that.How is it the case that 10% of the population think they are too cool to be with other people?i cant get the idea behind this.
> 
> we dont like our motherland to be partitioned and given to invaders who kept themselves aloof from the rest of the population.



I do understand where you are coming from.

However, one should look at the entire history of human civilizations, as well as migration of populations, ideas and religions.

If one takes that broader view, what has happened in the sub-continent is no different than many other places and times.

Surely, in the 21st century, our thought processes should move beyond this particular aspect that you refer to.


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## r3alist

indian army are killing kashmiri children - whats new?


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## Indian9

karan.1970 said:


> You mean the terrorists that came in from Pakistan to loot and **** Kashmiris and force them into submission. So intent were they on looting and raping that they stopped short of Srinagar and wasted a large amount of time indulging in those activities. That gave Maharaja time to acceed to India and Indian forces to intervene and stop the irregular army in their tracks.



And these people are sooo proud of the actions of their "brave irregular army". I see it on almost every Pakistani forum that I visit.


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## karan.1970

btw.. The following line stands out

*When it is established to the satisfaction of the Commission set up in accordance with the Council's resolution 39 (1948) that the tribesmen are withdrawing and that arrangements for the cessation of the fighting have become effective,*

Has any commission set up by UN so far has certified that it has been established to their satisfaction that the tribesmen etc are withdrawing?


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## Subramanian

VCheng said:


> I do understand where you are coming from.
> 
> However, one should look at the entire history of human civilizations, as well as migration of populations, ideas and religions.
> 
> If one takes that broader view, what has happened in the sub-continent is no different than many other places and times.
> 
> Surely, in the 21st century, our thought processes should move beyond this particular aspect that you refer to.



I feel if there has to be a solution,then it is very simple.The people pakistan,india and bangaldesh are the same.They have to understand this fundamental fact.We can always go back to history and see where our ancestors came from,a fair skinned guy ll say mine came from scandinavia and the dark skinned one ll say mine came from africa.

we can exist as independent countries and still realise this basic fact.i have met many many pakistanis when i was abroad and i cannot see the difference of any sort between them and the indian people of north india.

but whats the point?there are many other things that matter.

for good and the bad apart from the elite nobility,none of the people have any kind of pure blood.If we take the extremes of the country,we r bound to get extreme samples.

You can take ur own cricket team,look at how imran khan and javed miandad look.I am sure u can see the difference.Many hindus in india ll be more fairer and sharp nosed than javed and many pathans and frontierwale from india have dark skin and blunt noses.

so where are all those invasion and race theories?they fail bigtime.ultimately it is the culture that unites the people.it is the weather,the food,the lifestyle that ultimately makes one man help other to survive.how does it matter how one seeks his inner strength when that inner strength is not of any use to his society.

this partition was very bloody but what pisses me off the most is that it was unnecessary.

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## indiaworldpower

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *India is trying to Crush Kashmiri movement by force ​*
> TopNews
> Written by KMS
> Monday, 11 October 2010 13:13
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Srinagar, October 11, 2010: APHC chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, has said that India is trying to crush the Kashmiris struggle through use of brute force ahead of the US President, Barrack Obamas visit to India.
> 
> Syed Ali Shah Geelani, in a statement issued in Srinagar, termed the attempt by the occupation authorities to quell the ongoing "Quite Kashmir Movement" forcefully as an effort to hoodwink the international community about the situation in the occupied territory.
> 
> He asked the people of Kashmir to keep united among their ranks to foil nefarious designs of the authorities to harm the movement. Peace and stability in South Asia cannot prevail till the resolution of Kashmir dispute, he added.
> 
> Appealing the people to make protest programme, announced by him as a part of "Quit Kashmir Movement", a success, Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that Kashmiris would continue their struggle for right of Self-Determination till its logical end. He said that if the puppet Chief Minister, Umar Abdullah, was sincere to his words then he should resign and join the pro-freedom camp.
> 
> 
> Felicitating the Hajj aspirants, Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that they should say special prayers for success of the liberation movement in Occupied State of Jammu and Kashmir (OSJK).
> 
> Sacrifices of the Kashmiri people have centre-staged the Kashmir dispute. International community understands that Kashmiris movement is an indigenous freedom struggle against Indian occupation, he maintained.
> 
> The APHC leader, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has expressed serious concern over the miserable plight of the illegally detained Kashmiris in various jails. In a statement issued in Srinagar he said, The detainees are being treated inhumanely. They have been even denied medical care and their relatives are not allowed to meet them regularly. He maintained that Kashmiris liberation struggle had been recognized at the international level and there was no justification in mistreating the pro-freedom leadership and Kashmiris in the jails. He appealed to the international human rights organizations to take cognizance of the matter.
> 
> Mirwaiz strongly denounced the restrictions imposed by the occupation authorities on Sunday to thwart an indoor session to mark the Prisoners Day. I want to maintain that we had not to stage protests or take out procession but only organize a session to pay tributes to the prisoners. Putting curbs on our symbolic and peaceful programs clearly shows authorities frustration, he added.
> 
> Umar Farooq pointed out that after the Lal Chowk march on Eid-ul-Fitr, the puppet administration had left no stone unturned to quell peaceful protests in the territory. He deplored that the present regime was helpless and had now confined to only curfews, restrictions, crackdowns and putting leaders under house arrest.
> 
> 
> Senior Hurriyet leader and the Vice Chairman of Jammu and Kashmir Muslim League, Masarrat Aalam Butt, has said that the people of Kashmir will continue their just liberation struggle till its logical conclusion. Masarrat Aalam Butt in a statement issued in Srinagar appealed the people to take part in Hyderpora March in large numbers on Tuesday to free Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who is under illegal house arrest since Eid.
> 
> He warned the occupation authorities of massive agitation if they did not stop their oppressive tactics in the territory. Masarrat Aalam Butt said that the use of force could not deter Kashmiris resolve to get freedom from Indian bondage.
> 
> Calling India an uncivilized nation that had been enslaving Kashmiris for the past 63 years, he said that the occupation authorities were trying to suppress the liberation struggle through use of brute force.
> 
> The authorities have booked four persons under the black law, Public Safety Act (PSA) in Shopian district for participating in recent anti-India demonstrations. Four persons had been booked under Indian laws in the district. Those who have been booked under the Indian black laws include Mufti Wajib, Farooq Ahmed, Ayaz Ahmed and Shiraz. They have been lodged in Kathua jail.
> 
> A nine-month-old baby was critically injured after Indian troops beat him up in south Kashmirs Islamabad town. Eyewitnesses told mediamen that Indian forces without any provocation barged into the house of Manzoor Ahmad Bhat, proprietor Manzoor Fabrics, in Khanabal and beat up all the inmates including women and children. They said that a nine-month-old baby, Asrar Manzoor, was critically injured as he was also hit with batons in his head while he was in his mothers lap. Asrar was shifted to the district hospital, Islamabad.
> 
> 
> The witnesses stated that Asrars seven-year-old brother, Arsalan Manzoor, also sustained grievous injuries after he was beaten ruthlessly by the troops.
> 
> People took to the streets in many areas of the town in protest against the incident. Indian police and troops used brute force to disperse the protesters injuring several persons.
> 
> Anti-India demonstrations were staged in Bemina, Chattabal, Batamaloo, Saida Kadal, Rainawari, Rajouri Kadal, Gojwara, Nund Reshi Colony, Nowpora, Khanyar, Pampore, Shopian, Pulwama, Kulgam, Sopore, Handwara and Baramulla areas. The occupation forces resorted to heavy baton charge and excessive teargas shelling to break up the demonstrations at many places. A civilian, Waseem Akbar Lone, resident of Chankhan in Sopore, was critically injured in the police action. He was shifted to sub-district hospital Sopore where from doctors referred him to Soura hospital in Srinagar. A youth was hit on his head by a teargas shell fired by the police in Baramulla. He was rushed to SHMS hospital where his condition was stated to be critical.
> 
> In Srinagar, Indian forces entered into many residential areas, damaged several vehicles, smashed windowpanes of residential houses and ransacked household goods.
> 
> India is trying to Crush Kashmiri movement by force



There is nothing wrong in using force against voilent protests no matter who they are. They can be Indians in Kashmiri or others Indians at any other part of the country.

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## indiaworldpower

Karthic Sri said:


> Tell us how you feel.?
> 
> 98% Don`t Want To Join Pakistan - Kashmir Survey - Sri Lanka
> 
> Just 2% of people in J&K want to join Pak: Survey



Had it been even opposite when 98% want to join Pakistan, India won't let it happen. India will use every possible way to stop that from happening that includes force or brutal army ways. Those who wana go to Pakistan, India can start special AC (1-tier) trains which can drop them at Pakistan border.


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## RamGorur

mattoo said:


> AFAIK, after the fall of Dhaka, (rump state of formerly western) Pakistan withdrew all embassy staff. The chanceries at Mumbai (then Bombay) and Delhi were evacuated and full relations were restored in August 1974.
> 
> The chanceries were then given to the new embassy staff. This is something interesting that even I did not know until I asked certain relations of mine in the diplomatic corps (now retd.).


A country can't open an embassy in another country till the later recognizes the former's sovereignty. Besides several agreements between Pakistan and India have been conclude since the creation of Bangladesh.

So the argument that current Pakistan somehow is not the same Pakistan mentioned in UN resolutions holds no water.



> Point being, all relations with undivided Pakistan were renegotiated on fresh terms. As the victor of the 71 conflict, it was India's prerogative to act as such.


Mattooji, Shimla Agreement was India's renegotiation with (then) new Pakistan on matters relating to Kashmir and other bilateral disputes, thereby nullifying the role of Bangladesh, if at all there was any possibility of such.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

malaymishra123 said:


> Keep crying and keep holding protests, Pakistani populace has a passion for holding protests for any issue anywhere on the globe!
> 
> Meanwhile India doesnt give a damn and keeps forging ahead.



it's the indians who keep crying even to their grave

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## mattoo

RamGorur said:


> A country can't open an embassy in another country till the later recognizes the former's sovereignty.



I agree with you here. India does indeed recognize Pakistan's sovereignty. Caveat being, as a fresh state after Mar 26, 1971.




RamGorur said:


> Besides several agreements between Pakistan and India have been conclude since the creation of Bangladesh.



I think you are trying to say that this created a precedent of sorts. Am I getting you right?



RamGorur said:


> So the argument that current Pakistan somehow is not the same Pakistan mentioned in UN resolutions holds no water.



Non sequitur - it does not follow.



RamGorur said:


> Mattooji, Shimla Agreement was India's renegotiation with (then) new Pakistan on matters relating to Kashmir and other bilateral disputes, thereby nullifying the role of Bangladesh, if at all there was any possibility of such.



Just proves that earlier resolutions were pointless. Anyway, its splitting hairs on something essentially we are both in agreement on.


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## DesiGuy

The Indian government has named three mediators to begin a dialogue with people in Indian-administered Kashmir.

Journalist Dilip Padgaonkar, bureaucrat MM Ansari and academician Radha Kumar will begin work soon.

The appointments are part of measures aimed at defusing tension. More than 100 Kashmiris have been killed since June in protests against Indian rule.

Separatist groups called the mediating team "a joke" rather than a serious attempt to resolve Kashmir's problems.

Tens of thousands of people have been killed in Kashmir since an armed revolt erupted in 1989.
'Credible'

Last month, Indian Home Minister P Chidambaram said the federal government would appoint a group to begin what he described as a sustained dialogue with Kashmiris, including political parties.

He said the three mediators were "very credible people", and that the government might add another mediator to the group later.

Mr Padgaonkar has been part of a committee on Kashmir in the past, while Mr Ansari is India's information commissioner. Ms Kumar heads an academic institute in Delhi and has been engaged in discussions with Kashmir separatist leaders in the past.

The government has also re-opened all schools and universities which were closed during recent unrest and pulled down some security bunkers as part of a range of measures designed to bring normalcy to the valley.

A prominent separatist leader, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, dismissed the announcements as "meaningless".

Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, who heads the moderate faction of the All Party Hurriyat Conference (APHC), was also dismissive.

"We expected a political committee comprising members of the opposition as well as the governing parties. Such a committee would talk with Pakistan as well as with Kashmiri leaders," he said.

"By appointing academicians and journalists to the committee, the Indian government has sought to make light of the Kashmir problem. It is yet another joke played with the people of Kashmir." 

BBC News - India names mediators to hold Kashmir dialogue


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## BATMAN

Mediate what? return of captive children and women?
What about the killed, tortured and raped?

Kashmiri demands are quite clear... take army back out of the cities and accession with Pakistan.

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## DesiGuy

BATMAN said:


> Mediate what? return of captive children and women?
> What about the killed, tortured and raped?
> 
> Kashmiri demands are quite clear... *take army back out of the cities and accession with Pakistan.*




OK, done!

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## Abu Zolfiqar

DesiGuy said:


> "By appointing academicians and journalists to the committee, the Indian government has sought to make light of the Kashmir problem. It is yet another joke played with the people of Kashmir."
> 
> BBC News - India names mediators to hold Kashmir dialogue



I would strongly agree...

unfortunately, the Hindustanis think everybody is stupid and MIS-informed


such is not the case.


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## Peshwa

I think the Kashmiris need to embrace this opportunity and voice some of their demands wrt economic opportunity, development etc....

A bird in hand is worth two in the bush......
If the Kashmiri cause is true to its worth....the Kashmiri leaders should recognize that freedom should not and cannot be brought at the cost of peoples development!

Geelani is an idiot if he thinks he is doing Kashmiris any favors by banning schools and universities.....
The more educated the Kashmiris are....the better for their cause...


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## VCheng

Subramanian said:


> I feel if there has to be a solution,then it is very simple.The people pakistan,india and bangaldesh are the same.They have to understand this fundamental fact.We can always go back to history and see where our ancestors came from,a fair skinned guy ll say mine came from scandinavia and the dark skinned one ll say mine came from africa.
> 
> we can exist as independent countries and still realise this basic fact.i have met many many pakistanis when i was abroad and i cannot see the difference of any sort between them and the indian people of north india.
> 
> but whats the point?there are many other things that matter.
> 
> for good and the bad apart from the elite nobility,none of the people have any kind of pure blood.If we take the extremes of the country,we r bound to get extreme samples.
> 
> You can take ur own cricket team,look at how imran khan and javed miandad look.I am sure u can see the difference.Many hindus in india ll be more fairer and sharp nosed than javed and many pathans and frontierwale from india have dark skin and blunt noses.
> 
> so where are all those invasion and race theories?they fail bigtime.ultimately it is the culture that unites the people.it is the weather,the food,the lifestyle that ultimately makes one man help other to survive.how does it matter how one seeks his inner strength when that inner strength is not of any use to his society.
> 
> this partition was very bloody but what pisses me off the most is that it was unnecessary.



Honestly, I did make three separate attempts to understand your rant, but I must admit failure. In my opinion, you are mixing all sorts of biased interpretations of facts, myths and prejudices, and this flight of ideas prevents me from dissecting or discussing it intelligently.

However, I do understand your last line. 

I respect your opinion that you consider the partition unnecessary, and will not comment on whether I consider it correct or not, but will point out that conclusion on your part means that your ire should have been directed at Her Majesty's government well over 60 years ago, and that, perhaps, is no concern of mine, or at least will not be a concern, until a time machine is invented!


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## DesiGuy

*India is trying to Crush Kashmiri movement by force!!!*



Using only when it's necessary.


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## Contrarian

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> it's the indians who keep crying even to their grave



One liners are not going to change the reality of things mate..regardless of how much you want them to.

Each year, the gap grows, each year the balance tilts further in India's favour. Regardless of what you want, regardless of any number of protests in Pakistan, regardless of whether you *think* you are morally right- there will not be an iota of change in ground realities-ie change in the ownership of land. 

Infact India's position will only harden as time passes - You seem to be missing this simple fact.


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## PakSher

malaymishra123 said:


> One liners are not going to change the reality of things mate..regardless of how much you want them to.
> 
> Each year, the gap grows, each year the balance tilts further in India's favour. Regardless of what you want, regardless of any number of protests in Pakistan, regardless of whether you *think* you are morally right- there will not be an iota of change in ground realities-ie change in the ownership of land.
> 
> Infact India's position will only harden as time passes - You seem to be missing this simple fact.



Yes, India does have to bring the 400 million people living below the poverty line to middle class. Holding all the money in the State Bank will not make India a developed nation. Pakistan has its sets of challenges, but deal with them in the years to come. Regarding the iota of change that is what Congress use to say in the 1900s, but India was split in 3. Keep killing the innocent people in Kashmir and that will set the foundation of the break up of India. Though the hundus did kill my granfather's brother on a Friday afternoon in Dehli in 1938, but that made my entire family even work harder to get Pakistan. 

If Indian military believes that killing teenagers in Kashmir will stop the freedom struggle of Kashmiris, only history will repeat itself.


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## Hawkish

BATMAN said:


> Mediate what? return of captive children and women?
> What about the killed, tortured and raped?
> 
> Kashmiri demands are quite clear... take army back out of the cities and accession with Pakistan.



Kashmir was an international issue, but Pakistan mishandled it. It is too late now. Kashmirs could have achieved East Timor like solution if Pakistan executed a well planned strategy to isolate India. 
Unfortunately there is no one to talk about Kashmir except a once in year resolution by OIC to satisfy Pakistan.

US will be supporting LOC as the border between India and Pakistan. This was the Musharff- Singh formula.

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## Hawkish

Peshwa said:


> I think the Kashmiris need to embrace this opportunity and voice some of their demands wrt economic opportunity, development etc....
> 
> .



They have been voicing their demand loud and clear for the past 10 years. Are you listening to them? Majority don't want Indian rule.


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## JamesBond

Hawkish said:


> They have been voicing their demand loud and clear for the past 10 years. Are you listening to them? Majority don't want Indian rule.



Kindly elucidate what you mean by the pronoun 'they' sire...

Valley
Jammu
or Ladakh?


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## Fireurimagination

Instead of protesting against happenings in another country they should rather hold a demonstration against happenings in their own country where probably 100 folds death and mayhem happens that too on a daily basis, why it is so Pakistanis are more concerned about other countries rather their own?


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## Subramanian

VCheng said:


> Honestly, I did make three separate attempts to understand your rant, but I must admit failure. In my opinion, you are mixing all sorts of biased interpretations of facts, myths and prejudices, and this flight of ideas prevents me from dissecting or discussing it intelligently.
> 
> However, I do understand your last line.
> 
> I respect your opinion that you consider the partition unnecessary, and will not comment on whether I consider it correct or not, but will point out that conclusion on your part means that your ire should have been directed at Her Majesty's government well over 60 years ago, and that, perhaps, is no concern of mine, or at least will not be a concern, until a time machine is invented!



There is no biased myth or prejudice.

It is all a fact of life.you just need to open your eyes to see it.thats all.

if you think pakistanis descended from stratosphere,just on the midnight of august 13thy,1947,i just find it laughable.


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## Subramanian

there was no lies in that,why u scared of facing the truth is it?


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## fatman17

*Thousands fled India-controlled Kashmir. Are they better off in Pakistan?*

Some 35,000 Kashmiris fled from Indian-controlled Kashmir during the 1990s to settle in Pakistan, a country that has not yet granted citizenship to up to 40 percent of the migrants.

A Kashmiri baker stands in his closed shop during a curfew in Srinagar, India, Oct. 12. The Muslim majority Kashmir region is divided between mainly Hindu India and mainly Muslim Pakistan and claimed by both countries in its entirety. Some 35,000 Kashmiris fled from India-controlled Kashmir during the 1990s to settle in Pakistan, according to government estimates.

Muzaffarabad, Azad Jammu Kashmir 
While an insurgency raged against Indian authorities in the early 1990s, thousands of young men, including Rana Altafs father and uncle, were arrested by authorities, beaten, and tortured. Fearing for their lives, they eventually crossed the line of control that separates Indian-controlled Kashmir from the Pakistani side. They trekked on foot for three days over treacherous snowy terrain in a group of 60 people from neighboring families, avoiding Indian landmines.

Kashmir protests: Intifada comes to Kashmir Water supply of millions threatened by melting of Kashmir's glaciers In restless Kashmir, desire for independence grows We knew if we turned back we faced certain death. They would have shot us, recalls Ranas father, Abdul Rasheed. Rasheed says he was arrested three times and interrogated by a man he remembers as Major Sharma who threatened to have him killed if he did not give up the names of militants hiding in his village. Rasheed insists he had nothing to do with the armed struggle in which an estimated 84,000 civilians lost their lives.

Seventeen years later, like many who made similar treks, the family lives in a make-shift shanty on the outskirts of Muzaffarabad, the capital of Pakistan administered Kashmir. Though they count themselves lucky to be alive, the familys dream of a welcoming Pakistan was short lived. 

Were grateful to Pakistan but were always made to feel different. The people here dont like us, dont mix with us, and its hard to get a job, says Rana who has not yet received Pakistani citizenship or an ID card, and is therefore not entitled to attend college or legally seek employment. Ranas mother, Sobia, complains that the family struggles for food each month as the men find informal work only occasionally.

A better option?
Some 35,000 Kashmiris fled from India-controlled Kashmir during the 1990s to settle in Pakistan, according to government estimates. They traveled difficult terrain and long distances to a country that claimed to speak for the beleaguered Kashmiri people. Years later, however, it has not yet granted citizenship to up to 40 percent of the migrants, mostly from the second or third generations. Most migrants live in camps and subsist on government handouts of about $8 a month per person.

These are a group of people who bring into focus a humanitarian factor of the whole Kashmir dispute. The fact that these people have been living for 20 years in camps remains virtually unknown, says Marjan Lucas, a Senior Program Officer at Dutch nongovernmental organization IKV Pax Christi who has been campaigning on behalf of the migrants.

Ms. Lucas suggests the government has been slow in awarding citizenship rights to the migrants because to do so would mean negating their right to self-determination. The Pakistan government continues to insist the 1948 United Nations Security Council Resolution calling for self-determination is the only acceptable mechanism through which to solve the Kashmir dispute with India. 

They were invited and told to stay until the dispute was resolved. When they came they were welcomed but it was expected that their stay would be temporary so Pakistan said We dont have to give you ID cards because you have the right to self-determination.' " This situation continued and continued and theyre still in the same situation they were in when they arrived, and now the third and fourth generations have been born within the camps.

'We want to go back home, but only after the Indian Army has left'
At Ranas residence, a make-shift shanty home with a corrugated iron roof, on the outskirts of Muzaffarabad city, three families crowd into two rooms and subsist on government welfare checks of $17 per person per month. Not one of the family possess a Pakistani ID card including Rana and his younger brother Mushtaq, who was born in Muzafarrabad.

We left our lands, our properties, our animals and businesses to come here, says Abdul, the family head. We want to go back home, but only after the Indian Army has left. What business do they have in Kashmir? he asks.

Only 1 percent of the total population of Kashmir claims to have been able to visit friends of relatives on the other side in the last five years, according to a recent poll by the Chatham House think tank in London.

Kashmir protests: Intifada comes to Kashmir Water supply of millions threatened by melting of Kashmir's glaciers In restless Kashmir, desire for independence grows Having left behind their possessions, almost none of the migrants have been able to return to meet loved-ones, and some have not even been able to afford to make telephone contact. The much-touted bus service between the two Kashmirs, launched as part of peace efforts between India and Pakistan in 2005, is just for show they say, as bureaucratic hurdles make travel impossible for the common man.

A people without a home, 'it's like we don't exist' 
At the Manak Piyan camp at Muzaffarabad, home to some 2,000 migrants, a school teacher who asked not to be named because of his past membership in a militant group supported by Pakistani intelligence, says: Nobody wants to take responsibility for us, its like we dont exist." Before fleeing India, the teacher studied at the Srinagar SP college. 

He finally got his ID card seven years ago, after a long struggle with red tape. Some members of the community petitioned the High Court in 2005 for citizenship rights, but the courts ruling extended only as far as a few dozen individual cases. Other migrants were granted citizenship in 2006 in the run-up to the Azad Jammu Kashmir state elections, in what some felt was a cynical ploy by politicians to garner votes.

Mir Abdul Rasheed Abbasi, a member of the AJK parliament, acknowledged delays in granting citizenship to the migrants but said that poor record keeping and fraudulent petitions for benefits are partly responsible. 

The school teacher and other migrants here say they once fought India as members of the Inter Services Intelligence backed Hizb-ul-Mujahideen. He says he was taken to Khost in Afghanistan for training under the command of pro-Pakistan Afghan warlord Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. He walks with a prosthetic left leg after hitting a landmine during one of his sorties with militants back into Indian administered Kashmir.

Not your average jihadi
But he is not a run-of-the-mill jihadi: He is a staunch supporter of womens right to education and work. He also says he is especially grateful for the work of Christian charities in the region and simply wants the world to recognize his struggle. Our right to fight the occupying forces is guaranteed under the United Nations Charter, he says, adding: We want to go back home but we are hostages to our situation. Though we respect the people of AJK, their government does not favor us.

Many within the camps still hold out hope for an independent Kashmir, and view armed struggle as necessary. Some find they do not fit in Pakistan because of cultural and linguistic differences  migrants speak the Kashmiri language whereas many of the locals speak a dialect of Punjabi. Some migrants are too proud to accept a Pakistani ID, says Lucas of Pax Christi. The community itself is not classed as "refugee camp" by the UNHCR.

For these reasons, Lucas says that her organization, along with Pakistan's Mass Welfare Foundation, hopes to stimulate the debate amongst the migrants (about) what future they want for themselves.

Similarities can be drawn between the plight of the Kashmiri migrants in AJK to the struggle of the "Kashmiri Pandits"  Kashmiri Hindus of Brahmin heritage, who were driven out of Indian administered Kashmir en masse during the uprising in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Up to 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits are believed to be displaced.

Groups like these tend to become exploited for propaganda purposes. The Indian establishment chose to use the Pandits as proof of the racist oppression of Muslim Kashmiris, to put them forward and say these are the victims of Islamic terrorism,  says Lucas.

Pakistan has so far not exploited the Kashmiri migrants in a similar way, and this is very commendable, she says. But that might also be to avoid drawing attention to the conditions in which they are living in the camps.

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## SpArK

*A very nice article.
An eye opener infact.*


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## Subramanian

riCoh said:


> We must not forget, it took 63 deaths in valley to make our PM open his mouth.
> 
> Why is Indian army fighting terrorism in kashmir, its not their job. They should secure the border and check infiltration from our friendly neighbourhood,thats it. Is it so difficult for GOI to understand.
> 
> Terrorism & militancy is headache of J&K police or sumthing like ATS.
> If possible , provide kashmir govt. required resources and scrap article 371.



scrap article 371.


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## Omar1984

The source of the article is non-reliable:

Thousands fled India-controlled Kashmir. Are they better off in Pakistan? - CSMonitor.com


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## Awesome

Hmmm the issues with that existed with the Kashmir population getting citizen rights will not be seen favorably in the big picture of resolving the Kashmir issue.

But an interim solution is needed, since the Kashmir issue may go on for another few decades and at least the current generation can get more rights. 



> &#8220;Groups like these tend to become exploited for propaganda purposes. The Indian establishment chose to use the Pandits as proof of the racist oppression of Muslim Kashmiris, to put them forward and say &#8216;these are the victims of Islamic terrorism,&#8217; &#8221; says Lucas.
> 
> &#8220;Pakistan has so far not exploited the Kashmiri migrants in a similar way, and this is very commendable,&#8221; she says. &#8220;But that might also be to avoid drawing attention to the conditions in which they are living in the camps.&#8221;



Thats what I'm saying, you won't need to exploit them or anything. Make them a safe home in Pakistan the world will automatically notice.

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## Frankenstein

Simple, Yes they are better off in Pakistan,

Migration is Sunnah, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) Migrated from Mecca to Medina, due to hardships


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## riCoh

*yes they are better off in pakistan....atleast they are alive.*


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## somebozo

Pakistan does not anymore grant citizenship to former Indians except for women by marriage. IOK Kashmirs are effectively "Indians" too. Their children however will be eligible for citizenship if they are born in Pakistan. However the Pak gov can issue them refugee identities and one time use passports for travel abroad. Just like they are issued to Afghans and Burmese taken refugee in Pakistan.

By the way Saudi charities such as SPAPEV has done a lot to up heal AJK living standards since the 2005 earth quake.

Saudi Public Assistance for Pakistan Earthquake Victims

What is the source of this article??


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## KS

A good article.

Forced re-location(I will not call this migration due to economic reasons like some ppl call the Pandits) is always hard on the ppl who ever they are and the respective governments must take care of them and make arrangements for them to return to their native lands.


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## Subramanian

Asim Aquil said:


> Nobody can say for certain, but I think It won't take Generations if the current level of escalations continue. Sooner or later the Indian security forces won't have any cover from stones being hurled at them.



Indian economy keeps on growing,Indian population keeps on growing and there ll be no lack of covers.We ll keep it for eternity.


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## Subramanian

Dance said:


> Dude do you do anything besides say delusional things
> 
> Only indians like you would say Kashmir is an "integral" part of india, when most Kashmiris hate your guts and the world does not recognize Kashmir as a part of india



The world,whatever you mean by that give a ***'s arse about anything.That world's economies have crumbled big time and they dont have the power or initiative to do anything about it.

Infact more than anything else,they would support India to counter balance the power of China.


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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

Good to see the government appointing 'three' mediators...one for each region.

Ever since the terrorism problem has started everyone thinks that only Kashmiris live in the state and every step is taken to please them only.

As a Jammuite..I am waiting for the day when the three regions will be divided into three states so that the two out of three regions can focus on development and prosperity...let the stone throwers continue the violence and shut every college,school and business and return to stone age only.

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## Spring Onion

Indian mediators for what? which talks? how many more fake talks or tactics you are going to try ?


Killings, rapes, fake encounters, curfews, bribing deobandi mullas to get a pro-India statement and what not. All fall flat on its face.

Kashmiri leaders already termed these new move a JOKE

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## ek_indian

Jana said:


> Indian mediators for what? which talks? how many more fake talks or tactics you are going to try ?
> 
> 
> Killings, rapes, fake encounters, curfews, bribing deobandi mullas to get a pro-India statement and what not. All fall flat on its face.
> 
> Kashmiri leaders already termed these new move a JOKE



As always a senseless post from you. 

BTW, JnK so-called leaders are themselves divided over Kashmir demands. Some favour for merging into Pakistan. Some demands independent state and almost all of them want to remain with India but with less military, more autonomy and other local demands. This political and ideological divisions are shown in their response to these mediators.

The Hindu : News / National : Separatists reject appointment of interlocutors

Anyways, it is good that govt is taking right step.

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## Awesome

somebozo said:


> Pakistan does not anymore grant citizenship to former Indians except for women by marriage. IOK Kashmirs are effectively "Indians" too. Their children however will be eligible for citizenship if they are born in Pakistan. However the Pak gov can issue them refugee identities and one time use passports for travel abroad. Just like they are issued to Afghans and Burmese taken refugee in Pakistan.
> 
> By the way Saudi charities such as SPAPEV has done a lot to up heal AJK living standards since the 2005 earth quake.
> 
> Saudi Public Assistance for Pakistan Earthquake Victims
> 
> What is the source of this article??


It is unPakistani, counter-productive and against the stated position of Pakistan to accept or claim J&K refugees as Indians.

They have a disputed status and should be naturalized as Pakistanis as long as they are willing to do so and there are no red flags on a person to person case.


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## VCheng

Subramanian said:


> there was no lies in that,why u scared of facing the truth is it?



Dude, I am busy trying to invent a Time Machine over here, so please do not disturb me!


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## arihant

VCheng said:


> Dude, I am busy trying to invent a Time Machine over here, so please do not disturb me!



would like to go 6000 years old.


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## VCheng

arihant said:


> would like to go 6000 years old.



Sure man, I will take you along if I ever get it to work!


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## Mirza Jatt

*JK: 3 Hizbul militants killed in gun battle*

Srinagar, Oct 14: Three Hizbul Mujahideen militants were killed during a gun battle with security forces in Shopian district of Jammu Kashmir on Thursday, Oct 14 morning.


Buzz up!Acting on a tipoff, a joint team of the Army's 44 Rashtriya Rifles, 53 Rashtriya Rifles and the Special Operations Group of the local police launched a search operation at Chewan of Shopian district, and killed the militant during the encounter.


Identified as Shabir Ahmad, Arif Ahmad and Jan Khan, were asked to surrender but they opened fire at the security forces. The exchange of firing between the two sides ended with the killing of the militants.

Jammu Kashmir | Hizbul Militants Killed | Gunbattle | Security Forces | Shopian District - Oneindia News

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## Fasih Khan

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *India is trying to Crush Kashmiri movement by force ​*
> TopNews
> Written by KMS
> Monday, 11 October 2010 13:13
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Srinagar, October 11, 2010: APHC chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, has said that India is trying to crush the Kashmiris struggle through use of brute force ahead of the US President, Barrack Obamas visit to India.
> 
> Syed Ali Shah Geelani, in a statement issued in Srinagar, termed the attempt by the occupation authorities to quell the ongoing "Quite Kashmir Movement" forcefully as an effort to hoodwink the international community about the situation in the occupied territory.
> 
> He asked the people of Kashmir to keep united among their ranks to foil nefarious designs of the authorities to harm the movement. Peace and stability in South Asia cannot prevail till the resolution of Kashmir dispute, he added.
> 
> Appealing the people to make protest programme, announced by him as a part of "Quit Kashmir Movement", a success, Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that Kashmiris would continue their struggle for right of Self-Determination till its logical end. He said that if the puppet Chief Minister, Umar Abdullah, was sincere to his words then he should resign and join the pro-freedom camp.
> 
> 
> Felicitating the Hajj aspirants, Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that they should say special prayers for success of the liberation movement in Occupied State of Jammu and Kashmir (OSJK).
> 
> Sacrifices of the Kashmiri people have centre-staged the Kashmir dispute. International community understands that Kashmiris movement is an indigenous freedom struggle against Indian occupation, he maintained.
> 
> The APHC leader, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has expressed serious concern over the miserable plight of the illegally detained Kashmiris in various jails. In a statement issued in Srinagar he said, The detainees are being treated inhumanely. They have been even denied medical care and their relatives are not allowed to meet them regularly. He maintained that Kashmiris liberation struggle had been recognized at the international level and there was no justification in mistreating the pro-freedom leadership and Kashmiris in the jails. He appealed to the international human rights organizations to take cognizance of the matter.
> 
> Mirwaiz strongly denounced the restrictions imposed by the occupation authorities on Sunday to thwart an indoor session to mark the Prisoners Day. I want to maintain that we had not to stage protests or take out procession but only organize a session to pay tributes to the prisoners. Putting curbs on our symbolic and peaceful programs clearly shows authorities frustration, he added.
> 
> Umar Farooq pointed out that after the Lal Chowk march on Eid-ul-Fitr, the puppet administration had left no stone unturned to quell peaceful protests in the territory. He deplored that the present regime was helpless and had now confined to only curfews, restrictions, crackdowns and putting leaders under house arrest.
> 
> 
> Senior Hurriyet leader and the Vice Chairman of Jammu and Kashmir Muslim League, Masarrat Aalam Butt, has said that the people of Kashmir will continue their just liberation struggle till its logical conclusion. Masarrat Aalam Butt in a statement issued in Srinagar appealed the people to take part in Hyderpora March in large numbers on Tuesday to free Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who is under illegal house arrest since Eid.
> 
> He warned the occupation authorities of massive agitation if they did not stop their oppressive tactics in the territory. Masarrat Aalam Butt said that the use of force could not deter Kashmiris resolve to get freedom from Indian bondage.
> 
> Calling India an uncivilized nation that had been enslaving Kashmiris for the past 63 years, he said that the occupation authorities were trying to suppress the liberation struggle through use of brute force.
> 
> The authorities have booked four persons under the black law, Public Safety Act (PSA) in Shopian district for participating in recent anti-India demonstrations. Four persons had been booked under Indian laws in the district. Those who have been booked under the Indian black laws include Mufti Wajib, Farooq Ahmed, Ayaz Ahmed and Shiraz. They have been lodged in Kathua jail.
> 
> A nine-month-old baby was critically injured after Indian troops beat him up in south Kashmirs Islamabad town. Eyewitnesses told mediamen that Indian forces without any provocation barged into the house of Manzoor Ahmad Bhat, proprietor Manzoor Fabrics, in Khanabal and beat up all the inmates including women and children. They said that a nine-month-old baby, Asrar Manzoor, was critically injured as he was also hit with batons in his head while he was in his mothers lap. Asrar was shifted to the district hospital, Islamabad.
> 
> 
> The witnesses stated that Asrars seven-year-old brother, Arsalan Manzoor, also sustained grievous injuries after he was beaten ruthlessly by the troops.
> 
> People took to the streets in many areas of the town in protest against the incident. Indian police and troops used brute force to disperse the protesters injuring several persons.
> 
> Anti-India demonstrations were staged in Bemina, Chattabal, Batamaloo, Saida Kadal, Rainawari, Rajouri Kadal, Gojwara, Nund Reshi Colony, Nowpora, Khanyar, Pampore, Shopian, Pulwama, Kulgam, Sopore, Handwara and Baramulla areas. The occupation forces resorted to heavy baton charge and excessive teargas shelling to break up the demonstrations at many places. A civilian, Waseem Akbar Lone, resident of Chankhan in Sopore, was critically injured in the police action. He was shifted to sub-district hospital Sopore where from doctors referred him to Soura hospital in Srinagar. A youth was hit on his head by a teargas shell fired by the police in Baramulla. He was rushed to SHMS hospital where his condition was stated to be critical.
> 
> In Srinagar, Indian forces entered into many residential areas, damaged several vehicles, smashed windowpanes of residential houses and ransacked household goods.
> 
> India is trying to Crush Kashmiri movement by force



*Welldone Expose Indian Terrorism Brother.*


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## Fasih Khan

Mash' Allah Our Sisters are carrying Pakistani Flag. May Allah Almighty be with them. Death to the Infidel Aggressors. Ameen.


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## arihant

Three Freedom Fighters killed by Army in J&K encounter - The Hindu

Three Hizbul Mujahideen militants were on Thursday killed in an encounter with security forces in Jammu and Kashmirs Shopian district.

Three militants have been killed and searches are going on at the scene of the gunbattle, Superintendent of Police Shopian Shahid Mehraj told PTI.

Acting on credible inputs about presence of militants, a joint team of Armys 53 Rashtriya Rifles, 44 Rashtriya Rifles and Special Operations Group (SOG) of local police launched a cordon-and-search operation at Chewan in Keller area of Shopian district, 70 kms from here, officials said.

They said the militants were asked to surrender but they opened indiscriminate firing at the security forces, who retaliated, triggering off a fierce gun battle.

All the three militants hiding in the area were killed this morning, the officials said.

According to preliminary investigation, the slain ultras were identified as Shabir Ahmad, Arif Ahmad (both residents of Rajouri in Jammu division) and Jan Khan, a resident of Keller area, they said.

The militants were affiliated to HIzbul Mujahideen outfit, the officials said.

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## arihant

*Brother if I am not wrong, this militants are officially called Freedom Fighters by GOP and as this forum is govern by that, you should change title I guess.*

_One mans Freedom Fighter are terrorist for other_

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## Peshwa

Hawkish said:


> They have been voicing their demand loud and clear for the past 10 years. Are you listening to them? Majority don't want Indian rule.



Read my post carefully.....

I wrote the post implying that Kashmiris should make the best of this offer and secure some important and much needed development in the region.....esp wrt economic welfare

However, Seperation from India (A view held by SOME) is a distant dream for now......
What makes people think that the GOI will forego a strategically imp piece of land over a few stone throwing incidents?
The voice of a few thousand seperatists cannot drown the call of unity with Kashmir from the Billion plus Indians....

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## Peshwa

Jana said:


> Indian mediators for what? which talks? how many more fake talks or tactics you are going to try ?
> 
> 
> Killings, rapes, fake encounters, curfews, bribing deobandi mullas to get a pro-India statement and what not. All fall flat on its face.
> 
> *Kashmiri leaders already termed these new move a JOKE*



Kashmiri seperatist leaders are nothing more than "Power players"......They speak for a section of Kashmiri society.....Please dont exaggerate their sphere of influence....They are equally thuggish as some of those MQM leaders that shut down Karachi for their own vested interests....many times through violence

If they really cared about the people, they wouldnt deny the people of Kashmir economic, developmental and educational oppprtunities for the sake of a failed concept....

The mediators are there for the people and to hear their grievances wrt to developmental issues.....something that GOI owes the Kashmiris......so the leaders can call it whatever they want....this is a genuinely constructive step by GOI...

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## Irfan Baloch

Indian Jatt said:


> *JK: 3 Hizbul militants killed in gun battle*
> 
> Srinagar, Oct 14: Three Hizbul Mujahideen militants were killed during a gun battle with security forces in Shopian district of Jammu Kashmir on Thursday, Oct 14 morning.
> 
> Jammu Kashmir | Hizbul Militants Killed | Gunbattle | Security Forces | Shopian District - Oneindia News



Most likely fake encounter
I am sorry you might not like it but this is a sturggle that has been going on since partition. 
India needs to get the message now. for the sake of the Ttitle of Biggest Democracy in the world..
give Kashmiris their right of freedom


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## KS

Irfan Baloch said:


> Most likely fake encounter
> I am sorry you might not like it but this is a sturggle that has been going on since partition.
> India needs to get the message now. for the sake of the Ttitle of Biggest Democracy in the world..
> give Kashmiris their right of freedom



.............And the "gun-men" torching the NATO fuel tankers may have been Pakistani Army men itself.

C'mon do you atleast believe that there is a terrorist organisation called Hizbul Mujahedin involved in a violent struggle with Indian Army.?

*p.s.:* No democracy in this world gives its citizens the right to secession and India is no exception.

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## Hulk

Jana said:


> Indian mediators for what? which talks? how many more fake talks or tactics you are going to try ?
> 
> 
> Killings, *rapes*, fake encounters, curfews, bribing deobandi mullas to get a pro-India statement and what not. All fall flat on its face.
> 
> Kashmiri leaders already termed these new move a JOKE



Rapes count from 2009:- *Zero*
Some people just have emotional speech without any facts. The fact is if you are not a proptestor or militant, the chances of you facing any hardship is zero. There is absolute no direction to harass people and no state wants to do it. However if there is miltancy in a region than there would be some collatral.

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## Spring Onion

ek_indian said:


> As always a senseless post from you.
> 
> BTW, JnK so-called leaders are themselves divided over Kashmir demands. Some favour for merging into Pakistan. Some demands independent state and
> 
> 
> The Hindu : News / National : Separatists reject appointment of interlocutors
> 
> Anyways, it is good that govt is taking right step.



The Kashmiri leaders are Kashmiris and there is NO question of divide.

Whatever Kashmiris want must be done simple and straightforward.

Hold a free referendum under international bodies and if Kashmiris decided to join India then we would have NO issue with that.

I will send you greetings and flowers for that



> almost all of them want to remain with India but with less military, more autonomy and other local demands. This political and ideological divisions are shown in their response to these mediators.




 thats why India have to keep million of army there to curb freedom movement.


If you are so confident of that majority want to remain with India then why you are shying away from holding a referendum ???


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## Spring Onion

Peshwa said:


> Kashmiri seperatist leaders are nothing more than "Power players"......They speak for a section of Kashmiri society.....Please dont exaggerate their sphere of influence....They are equally thuggish as some of those MQM leaders that shut down Karachi for their own vested interests....many times through violence
> 
> If they really cared about the people, they wouldnt deny the people of Kashmir economic, developmental and educational oppprtunities for the sake of a failed concept....
> 
> The mediators are there for the people and to hear their grievances wrt to developmental issues.....something that GOI owes the Kashmiris......so the leaders can call it whatever they want....this is a genuinely constructive step by GOI...




The Kashmiri leaders are native Kashmiris whereas MQM people are not natives. hell of a difference between the two.

Kashmiris do have reasons for playing power game in their own country whereas MQM people are outsiders who have occupied karachi.


As far as Kashmiri leaders' sphere of influence if that is in your view is very limited or a small section of Kashmiris then it should be a win win situation for India by holding a referendum under UN.

You will solve it once for all


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## Irfan Baloch

karan.1970 said:


> The same reason why Pakistan had to impose curfew in Karachi. To protect infrastructure and civilians not participating in protests



wow such an innoncent & simpleton statement
I wish the Indian authorities had the same line of thinking in mind
but their actions state the opposite

****, fake encounters, draconian laws, destruction of private proerties constant atmosphere of fear & intimidation in the name of security

get the hint please. they people dont want Indian occupation!!!

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## Subramanian

VCheng said:


> Dude, I am busy trying to invent a Time Machine over here, so please do not disturb me!



oh sure,India ll do it quick n easy for you.It ll liberate Punjab and Sindh and put you in your mountain homeland,which is where you belong.


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## VCheng

Subramanian said:


> oh sure,India ll do it quick n easy for you.It ll liberate Punjab and Sindh and put you in your mountain homeland,which is where you belong.



You mean Montana? Dude, I am in North America!


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## softtec

Irfan Baloch said:


> Most likely fake encounter
> I am sorry you might not like it but this is a sturggle *that has been going on since partition*.
> India needs to get the message now. *for the sake of the Ttitle of Biggest Democracy in the world..*
> give Kashmiris their *right of freedom*



I thought u r a sensible person. 
This militant activities started, scripted,directed by ISI and pak army since late 80's after u have tasted the success in Afghanistan. 

Its funny..what the biggest democracy should do?Where do Pakistan stand there?

What do u mean by "right of freedom".Kashmiris have or can have all the rights which me and all the indians enjoy.And kishimiris(or any indian state) didnt have any right *to be an independent country* in anyway.


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## arihant

VCheng said:


> You mean Montana? Dude, I am in North America!



really cool. May be he is too aggressive.


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## Hawkish

indianrabbit said:


> Rapes count from 2009:- *Zero*
> Some people just have emotional speech without any facts. The fact is if you are not a proptestor or militant, the chances of you facing any hardship is zero.



Zero Hardship in Kashmir? LOL
Isn't the forum rule that members should not be posting when they are smoking pot?


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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

Jana said:


> The Kashmiri leaders are Kashmiris and there is NO question of divide.
> 
> Whatever Kashmiris want must be done simple and straightforward.
> 
> Hold a free referendum under international bodies and if Kashmiris decided to join India then we would have NO issue with that.
> 
> I will send you greetings and flowers for that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thats why India have to keep million of army there to curb freedom movement.
> 
> 
> If you are so confident of that majority want to remain with India then why you are shying away from holding a referendum ???



And who are Kashmiris according to you...Muslims???

What about those Kashmiri pandits who were thrown out of their own houses and are living in refugee camps in Jammu?

What about those Kashmiri Sikhs who are always proud to serve their country India????

For the sake of one community ie Kashmiri Muslims you want Kashmiri hindus...Kashmiri sikhs...Leh And Ladakhi buddishts and muslims....Dogra hindus sikhs and muslims...gujjar and bakarwal...everyone to become a part of your country????????

If you look at the whole state...trust me...the people wanting freedom and Pakistani citizenship becomes a minority.

But since you are Jana and you wont belive a evil Yindu Bhartiya...i suggest you to please visit my state and visit every region and meet people of every religion.


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## Hawkish

Peshwa said:


> Read my post carefully.....
> 
> However, Seperation from India (A view held by SOME) is a distant dream for now......
> What makes people think that the GOI will forego a strategically imp piece of land over a few stone throwing incidents?



True; Seperation from India is a distant dream for now..But this is not because of peacefulness in Kashmir. It is because Pakistan screwed it up and Indians played smart. Unfortunate Kashmirs will have to suffer.


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## JamesBond

^^ You did not reply to my post sire!


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## Hawkish

JamesBond said:


> Kindly elucidate what you mean by the pronoun 'they' sire...
> 
> Valley
> Jammu
> or Ladakh?



They:Majority of the people of Kashmir who do not want Indian Army kicking their AS* every day.


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## Xeric

Karthic Sri said:


> .............And the "gun-men" torching the NATO fuel tankers may have been Pakistani Army men itself.
> 
> C'mon do you atleast believe that there is a terrorist organisation called Hizbul Mujahedin involved in a violent struggle with Indian Army.?
> 
> *p.s.:* No democracy in this world gives its citizens the right to secession and India is no exception.



What's funny is that you can say whatever you want (without thinking) but a logical comment from this side makes you twitch.

BTW, how would they know those who were killed were hizbul mujaheedin? Was that engraved on their foreheads? They can be from the numerous freedom fighter groups operating inside IOK.

As for your NATO crap i may say the likes of Kasab were blackcats itself?

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## justanobserver

> They:Majority of the people of Kashmir who do not want Indian Army kicking their AS* every day.



The demand for independence is from the Valley only, Jammu and Ladakh actually want full economic integration with India

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## Spring Onion

CoLdHeArTeD DUDE said:


> And who are Kashmiris according to you...Muslims???
> 
> What about those Kashmiri pandits who were thrown out of their own houses and are living in refugee camps in Jammu?
> 
> What about those Kashmiri Sikhs who are always proud to serve their country India????
> 
> For the sake of one community ie Kashmiri Muslims you want Kashmiri hindus...Kashmiri sikhs...Leh And Ladakhi buddishts and muslims....Dogra hindus sikhs and muslims...gujjar and bakarwal...everyone to become a part of your country????????
> 
> If you look at the whole state...trust me...the people wanting freedom and Pakistani citizenship becomes a minority.
> 
> But since you are Jana and you wont belive a evil Yindu Bhartiya...i suggest you to please visit my state and visit every region and meet people of every religion.





I very well know the demography of Kashmir. Since Indians are confident enough that those who want their country back are few in numbers and those who want to remain under Indian invasion there for I repeat Again then "Why India is afraid of holding a referendum under foreign bodies in Kashmir"


Do hold one and if all those Sikh, Budhist, Hindu, Muslim Kashmiris want to join India then i have NO objection.


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## Spring Onion

justanobserver said:


> The demand for independence is from the Valley only, Jammu and Ladakh actually want full economic integration with India



This is a claim based in Indian point of view.

If i say 100% kashmiris want to join Pakistan that will be a claim based on Pakistani point of view.

Now what the majority of Kashmiris want will only be found out when you hold plebiscite under foreign bodies including UN.

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## justanobserver

^
BS
Ever seen their assembly in action? The representatives from Jammu and Ladakh have fought a lot with Omar, they want removal of article 370

CoLdHeArTeD DUDE is a Jammuite it seems, he'll give you a clearer picture 

PS:nobody wants to join Pakistan


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## Irfan Baloch

Karthic Sri said:


> ........
> *p.s.:* No democracy in this world gives its citizens the right to secession and India is no exception.



thanks for clarifying 
the catch phrase is "its citizens" which doesnt apply to Kahsmiris because 
Kashmiris were never and never will be part of India hence never its citizens

hence they will continue to struggle and demand freedom
Kashmir will be free of Indian occupation
with or without the help of ISI
whether or not India likes it or not is irrelevent
the more you supress it the more robust this freedom struggle will get. India is moving against thecourse of History. countries and empires more powerful than India had to scumb to the demands of the people.

like I always say its just the matter of time.


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## Irfan Baloch

softtec said:


> I thought u r a sensible person.
> This militant activities started, scripted,directed by ISI and pak army since late 80's after u have tasted the success in Afghanistan.




lesson in history my dear. war of independence started right at the partition when the Kashmiris refused to be a part of India and liberated Mirpur, Muzafarrabad, Gilgit, Sakurdu, balistan, Bag, Kotli, Rawalkot and Bhimber etc back in 1948
thats when your bogyman ISI didnt even exist.

its just a matter of time my dear mark my words Kashmir Shall be independent state and Indian Army will have to leave it sooner or later
one thing is for sure. once that is settled I will invite you over and show you around. I am sure we wont have anything to quarrel about. I am looking forward to visit Ajmair Sherif one day.


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## Xeric

@ Citizens..lolzz

i never knew india was so open to citizenship!!

Does india have a dual nationality agreement with Pakistan, one may like to enjoy the booming economy and the largest democracy there.

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## RamGorur

Irfan Baloch said:


> thanks for clarifying the catch phrase is "its citizens" Kashmiris were never and never will be part of India
> hence they will continue to struggle and demand freedom


As long as the State of India considers them citizen, the State will act accordingly. Don't loose too much sleep on that.

Btw, you claim that Kashmiris are not citizens of India, but that doesn't stop you from claiming remedy according to Indian constitution. Hypocrisy?


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## Irfan Baloch

xeric said:


> @ Citizens..lolzz
> 
> i never knew india was so open to citizenship!!
> 
> Does india have a dual nationality agreement with Pakistan, one may like to enjoy the booming economy and the largest democracy there.



lets meet up and take advantage of that together
I will really like to go and see in person those miserable call centre guys and gals in banglore that get shouted, insulted and swore at day and night by the people in the west.


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## VCheng

My prediction is that the LoC will get converted into a recognized international border.

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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

Jana said:


> This is a claim based in Indian point of view.
> 
> If i say 100&#37; kashmiris want to join Pakistan that will be a claim based on Pakistani point of view.
> 
> Now what the majority of Kashmiris want will only be found out when you hold plebiscite under foreign bodies including UN.



Its tough to make you understand..let me try.

KASHMIR=MUSLIMS+HINDUS+SIKHS

While muslims are demanding freedom...Sikhs and Hindus are not.

Tell me...do you seriously expect Sikhs and Hindus to vote for Pakistan??

Talking of Jammu..Jammuites are very very pro India...dont believe an evil Yindu..type Amarnath 2008 and see what happened in Jammu and what happened in Kashmir.

Now seeing your track record Jana..i know you will play the religion card here..but alsl see how the Sikhs and Muslims supported Hindus against the Kashmiris in that incident.

Jammu is the region which has so many people in the Army like Punjab.And for your information Jana..the most number of Infantry Regiments in the Indian army are from J & K ...no other state has so many regiments of Indian army.

Hope you understand about Jammu region.Now coming to Leh Ladakh.

Majority is Buddhishts population in Leh Ladakh..and as far as i know noone is very fond of your country or azadi.

Your seperatist leaders are not preached outside kashmir.

I dont know *Jana* but seriously you talking of Hindus,Buddhists and Sikhs voting for you is really funny...even Muslims from Jammu wont vote for Pakistan.

Here is how Kashmiri freedom fighters are treated in Jammu:-

Abdullah, Mufti forced to stay in airport by agitators | Latest News

check the link...and stop dreaming.


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## RamGorur

VCheng said:


> My prediction is that the LoC will get converted into a recognized international border.


That exactly how pragmatic people think.


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## Xeric

Beware people, tomorrow india may call zombies as their citizens and it gets even better; she may tell you that some XYZ singh is your father just because she wants to establish some kinship with you!

Man i love the 'conjunctive' nature of indian constitution!

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## Subramanian

VCheng said:


> You mean Montana? Dude, I am in North America!



No,i mean Khyber Pakhtunkwa,Gilgit-Baltistan and FATA.


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## VCheng

Subramanian said:


> No,i mean Khyber Pakhtunkwa,Gilgit-Baltistan and FATA.



I see. Then I have nothing to worry about!


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## ek_indian

Jana said:


> The Kashmiri leaders are Kashmiris and there is NO question of divide.



You know well this is not correct. Some talks about 5point formula while other talk of 4 point. From the hardline stance to the solution to political thought, everything is divided.



Jana said:


> Whatever Kashmiris want must be done simple and straightforward.



Agreed. Howver sonde there are not agreement between different fractions, it is hard to decide what are the actual demands. Somke of the demands are listed in one leader/section but they are not in others.

Also it is also important to consider who should be included as Kashmiris. There are many people who are displaced and have every right to call themselves Kashmiris.

Lastly, we have not even started with India POV yet.



Jana said:


> Hold a free referendum under international bodies and if Kashmiris decided to join India then we would have NO issue with that.



This topic is discussed on this forum till boredom. I do not want to initiate one more. You may assume that evel Indian ran away insread of giving answers.



Jana said:


> thats why India have to keep million of army there to curb freedom movement.



Millios of army?? Anyways, we should remember that army was not depolyed there always. Also the region is border area that too with mutual hostile nations.



Jana said:


> If you are so confident of that majority want to remain with India then why you are shying away from holding a referendum ???



I think answer is known. There are some precondition involved vefore so-calleed rererendun. Meanwhile demographics have been altered as well.
BTW, India gives people of Kashmir chance of electing their representatives every 5 years.


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## KS

xeric said:


> What's funny is that you can say whatever you want (without thinking) but a logical comment from this side makes you twitch.
> 
> BTW, how would they know those who were killed were hizbul mujaheedin? Was that engraved on their foreheads? They can be from the numerous freedom fighter groups operating inside IOK.
> 
> As for your NATO crap i may say the likes of Kasab were blackcats itself?



We would know they r HM the same way Pakistan army knows every man they kill is a TTP militant.

BTW "conspiracy theories r the hallmark of interweb losers" - Sparklingway



@ Irfan:

As long as they carry the blue back passport with 3 golden lions embossed on it, they r Indian citizens......
U and me arguing on an online forum doesn't change that a bit.


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## KS

Irfan Baloch said:


> lets meet up and take advantage of that together
> I will really like to go and see in person those miserable call centre guys and gals in banglore that get shouted, insulted and swore at day and night by the people in the west.



With all respect.....what u mentioned is any day better than young men brandishing AK s in public rallies or strapping suicide vests around their bodies and blowing themselves up in public places.

BTW I didn't expect this from a respected Think tank.

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## Peshwa

Jana said:


> The Kashmiri leaders are native Kashmiris whereas MQM people are not natives. hell of a difference between the two.



First problem I see with Pakistanis in general is their tendency to brand people based on their own flawed perspectives......

The fact is, MQM and its leaders are as Pakistani as anyone....
To call them outsiders is an insult to not only the concept of Pakistan but to its founder as well....

If the founding fathers of your country are Pakistani....then so are the MQM leaders



> Kashmiris do have reasons for playing power game in their own country whereas MQM people are outsiders who have occupied karachi.



Uh....so you're fine with Kashmiri leaders hurting the cause of their own people as long as they tow your line?

Besides....who are you to call MQM outsiders? So are you of the opinion that if your forefathers werent from the region....then you have no say in things there?

You sound exactly like the parties in India you most criticize.....namely Shiv Sena!




> As far as Kashmiri leaders' sphere of influence if that is in your view is very limited or a small section of Kashmiris then it should be a win win situation for India by holding a referendum under UN.
> You will solve it once for all



We dont have to make symbolic gestures to anyone to appease Pakistanis or Kashmiris.....or prove a point

India cannot and will not allow an integral part of its terrirtory to be broken away just because some people huff and puff and have sucidal tendencies

It starts with.....Kashmir is part of India...and ends there....

We dont even need to argue about what the Kashmiris choose more.....India, Pak or Freedom......

If Kashmiris demand development, opportunity, security....by all means they have the right to demand it....and we are all for it!

If its seperation from India they seek....then they probably shouldnt hold their breath....

B

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## justanobserver

> Originally Posted by *Jana*
> The Kashmiri leaders are native Kashmiris whereas MQM people are not natives. hell of a difference between the two.





> Originally Posted by *Jana*
> Kashmiris do have reasons for playing power game in their own country whereas MQM people are outsiders who have occupied karachi.



Pakistan was supposed to be the homeland for the subcontinental Muslims right?

What you've said clearly refutes the very idea of Pakistan


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## Peshwa

Hawkish said:


> True; Seperation from India is a distant dream for now..But this is not because of peacefulness in Kashmir. It is because Pakistan screwed it up and Indians played smart. Unfortunate Kashmirs will have to suffer.



Kashmiris have to suffer because India's neighbors are using Kashmir and its leaders as a tool to achieve their objective....which involves some native Kashmiris as well as other Pakistanis (Non-Kashmiris)

Do remember that India did not send in armies until cross border terrorism was initiated in 89......
For some odd reason, the idea being prophesized on this forum is that Kashmir has always been a militarized zone....

I would also ask you to check historical facts which prove that Indian actions have been reactionary to the violence stemming from accross our borders


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## Xeric

Karthic Sri said:


> We would know they r HM the same way Pakistan army knows every man they kill is a TTP militant.


That's the stupidest thing i have seen around this forum lately.

TTP militants claim responsibility when they blow up themselves.

The entire world recognize them as international terrorists.

They have been declared as terrorists by the international community and they dont get much bothered by it.

Their presence is RECOGNIZED inside the area bordering Pakistan and Afghanistan by the entire world.

We (and the world in general) are at open war with them, with a very very very clear line to as who is the guud guy and who is not.

etc
etc
&
etc

Let's see how many could you sum up as regards to HM. But before that i would like you to tell us even if HM do operate against the indian aggressors (expect you quoting some 'dot IN' link). Or may be you are still disillusioned and couldnt differentiate between a kid with stones and a bearded animal in shalwar kameez holding an AK!



> BTW "conspiracy theories r the hallmark of interweb losers" - Sparklingway


He got that right 

BTW, he's a great poster and has the quality to search out losers amongst winners!





> @ Irfan:
> 
> As long as they carry the blue back passport with 3 golden lions embossed on it, they r Indian citizens......
> U and me arguing on an online forum doesn't change that a bit.



Like i said:


xeric said:


> Beware people, tomorrow india may call zombies as their citizens and it gets even better; she may tell you that some XYZ singh is your father just because she wants to establish some kinship with you!
> 
> Man i love the 'conjunctive' nature of indian constitution!

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## Peshwa

Jana said:


> I very well know the demography of Kashmir. Since Indians are confident enough that those who want their country back are few in numbers and those who want to remain under Indian invasion there for I repeat Again then *"Why India is afraid of holding a referendum under foreign bodies in Kashmir"*
> 
> 
> Do hold one and if all those Sikh, Budhist, Hindu, Muslim Kashmiris want to join India then i have NO objection.



Why does Referendum even come into the picture...?

Holding a referendum indicates we doubt the integration of Kashmir to India.....
We Indians will not alienate our own people....Kashmiris are Indians....

Thats the Indian view of things.....other views including those seperatist Kashmiri hold very little weight in our books..


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## Spring Onion

Here Guys i came across this article by Indians posted at their forum. 

Here the writer and the Indians are saying that 45% In Indian Held Kashmir are NOT Kashmiris ))))) so demand for Freedom for Kashmiris is unjustified.

Though i have found this writer a total moron who does not know a difference between religion and ethnicity. And by his own claims it is proven that the population which India had been presented as Pro-India does not belong to Kashmir.

So they must be expelled from Kashmir


here is the link to entire article and some parts posted bellow

The Pioneer :: Home : >> Not all in JK are Kashmiris



> Let us not forget 45 per cent of the people of Jammu & Kashmir are Dogras, Punjabis, Paharis, Bakarwals, Gujjars, Buddhists and Shias






> There has been a basic flaw in New Delhis approach to an internal dialogue with people in the multi-ethnic, multi-lingual and multi-religious State of Jammu & Kashmir. This internal dialogue has been almost exclusively with the leadership of the All-Party Hurriyat Conference based in the Kashmir Valley. T*his, despite the fact that roughly 45 per cent of the people of Jammu & Kashmir are not Kashmiris who live in the Kashmir Valley, but are Dogras, Punjabis, Paharis, Bakarwals, Gujjars, Buddhist Ladakhis and Balti Shias in Kargil*.







> *Paradoxically, the Kashmir Valley where one now hears calls for azadi was ruled ruthlessly for over 700 years by Mongols, Afghans, Mughals, Sikhs and Dogras *before people experienced democracy and freedom under Indias Constitution.




The Pioneer :: Home : >> Not all in JK are Kashmiris

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## Abu Zolfiqar

malaymishra123 said:


> Infact India's position will only harden as time passes - You seem to be missing this simple fact.



as will that of the occupied Kashmiris' as is clearly evident! 


been following the news lately?


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## JanjaWeed

Jana said:


> You came up with silly reply again  nevermind
> 
> 
> If they are Indians then they are occupiers so expelled them from Occupied Kashmir.
> 
> I would like to see in this case Fighters should kick these Indians out of Kashmir



why is it silly? ofcourse i believe they are indians & for that matter every indian in this forum would say the same. c'mon.. when it comes to kashmir our two nations & people are poles apart in their point of views. for you it's occupied kashmir & for us it's just kashmir. 

for you it's the fighters & for us it's the militants. 

do you really think we would agree on anything when it comes to kashmir??


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## Spring Onion

StreetHawk said:


> why is it silly? ofcourse i believe they are indians & for that matter every indian in this forum would say the same. c'mon.. when it comes to kashmir our two nations & people are poles apart in their point of views. for you it's occupied kashmir & for us it's just kashmir.
> 
> for you it's the fighters & for us it's the militants.
> 
> do you really think we would agree on anything when it comes to kashmir??



I really dont care who you consider what.

The reality is Paharis, Bakarwals, Gujjars are ethnic Kashmiris whom your learned Indian has tried to portrayed as Non-Kashmiri.


He also called shias in Kashmir as non-Kashmiris lolzzz its a faith and not ethnicity. He should learn basics 


Now coming to Dogras, Sikhs and Budhists, Hindus in Kashmir hmmmmm now here we can look at it and by his own logic if they are not Kashmiris then they are outsiders who are occupying Kashmiri land.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

A plebiscite would involve all residents of the former Princely State of J&K, so it is rather absurd to argue that the residents of the Kashmir valley alone would determine the future of the disputed territory.


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## Hulk

The point is out of total region on J&K including Pakistan and China less than 20&#37; is asking for Plebiscit (When you take a 20000 feet view). So how justified is that?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

indianrabbit said:


> The point is out of total region on J&K including Pakistan and China less than 20&#37; is asking for Plebiscit (When you take a 20000 feet view). So how justified is that?


Without an impartial and neutral entity to properly record everyone's opinion on the issue of plebiscite, how can you argue that only 20% of the residents of IoK, G-B and AK desire a UN held plebiscite?


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## Hulk

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Without an impartial and neutral entity to properly record everyone's opinion on the issue of plebiscite, how can you argue that only 20% of the residents of IoK, G-B and AK desire a UN held plebiscite?



Agno, for a Plebisite to happen at least 50% should ask for it. It clearly is only restricted to 4 districts in valley so no point.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

indianrabbit said:


> Agno, for a Plebisite to happen at least 50% should ask for it. It clearly is only restricted to 4 districts in valley so no point.



And how can you determine fairly how many are asking for a plebiscite without an entity like the UN coming in to poll the residents of the entire disputed territories?

You can't expect people to just take India's word for it.


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## SpArK

*JKNPP to celebrate accession of state to India on Oct 26-27​*
PTI | 02:10 PM,Oct 14,2010
Jammu, Oct 14 (PTI) The Jammu and Kashmir National Panthers Party (JKNPP) has today decided to celebrate accession of the state to India in 1947, during the upcoming 63rd anniversary celebrations of the party. 

"JKNPP shall celebrate the anniversary on the state's integration with India with great pomp and show in all the 22 districts on October 26, the day Maharaja Hari Singh signed the instrument of accession on October 26, 1947," party Chairman Bhim Singh told reporters here. 

He said that on October 27, the party shall organise a historic public meeting in Jammu-the winter capital of the state, where all nationalists and political parties shall be invited. The JKNPP Chairman said that the party has appealed to all the political parties, social organisations, NGOs and the educational institutions to take out victory rallies with the tricolour flags to show that Jammu and Kashmir is an "inseparable and integral part" of India.

Asserting that the finality of accession with India cannot be challenged, Singh quoted Article 3 of the state Constitution which says "Jammu and Kashmir is and shall remain an integral part of India". 

Meanwhile, reacting to the appointment of the interlocutors by Centre to carry dialogue process with different groups here, he said "it is only a process of appointing unemployed bureaucrats and media persons, who do not have basic knowledge about geography and history of greater Jammu and Kashmir." PTI MKB DK

JKNPP to celebrate accession of state to India on Oct 26-27, IBN Live News


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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> A plebiscite would involve all residents of the former Princely State of J&K, so it is rather absurd to argue that the residents of the Kashmir valley alone would determine the future of the disputed territory.



Exactly!

Jammu and Kashmir is not all about what Kashmiri Muslims want and if we look at all the different groups living in Jammu and Kashmir..you will se that only Kashmiri Muslims have a problem with India.

So azadi and giving the whole state to Pakistan just to please Kashmiri Muslims is not whats going to happen.

Jammu and Leh Ladakh region are pro India and you will hardlly see "any" protest against Indian rule.

Infact people from Jammu wanted to remove article 370 or "special status" given to us by the Indian govt. and want to be treated like normal Indians.

Talking of Kashmir also...Hindus and Sikhs are also a part of Kashmir..so dont forget them.

Overall..if at all voting happens...i dont see Pakistan winning by any chance.

Majority is certainly with India in the state of Jammu and Kashmir...and Jammu and Kashmir is not a cake that you can cut the piece out with the most reddish cherry and have it...if you know what i mean.


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## Hulk

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And how can you determine fairly how many are asking for a plebiscite without an entity like the UN coming in to poll the residents of the entire disputed territories?
> 
> You can't expect people to just take India's word for it.



Simple look at the pockets where people are demanding it. There is zero demand from Jammu and Leh
Not heard from China and Pakistan either.


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## Omar1984

BENNY said:


> He said that on October 27, the party shall organise a historic public meeting in Jammu-the winter capital of the state, where all nationalists and political parties shall be invited.




I thought the winter capital of India Occupied Jammu and Kashmir was Srinagar.

Oh thats right, JKNPP would never go to Kashmir Valley and face this crowd:


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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

Omar1984 said:


> I thought the winter capital of India Occupied Jammu and Kashmir was Srinagar.
> 
> Oh thats right, JKNPP would never go to Kashmir Valley and face this crowd:
> 
> 
> YouTube - "Pakistan ka matlab kya : La ilaha illa Allah" say a million Kashmiris in India Occupied Kashmir



Jammu is the winter capital.

Tell me....would PDP and JKLF come in Jammu and hoist the Pakistani flag??

During Amarnath protests Kashmiri leaders were not allowed to enter the Jammu city.

Dont think everyone in Jammu and Kashmir thinks the way Kashmiri Muslims do.

BTW...Bhim Singh the leader from Panthers party is a great guy and is respected so much in Jammu.

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## Omar1984

CoLdHeArTeD DUDE said:


> Jammu is the winter capital.
> 
> Tell me....would PDP and JKLF come in Jammu and host the Pakistani flag??
> 
> During Amarnath protests Kashmiri leaders were not allowed to enter the Jammu city.
> 
> Dont think everyone in Jammu and Kashmir thinks the way Kashmiri Muslims do.
> 
> BTW...Bhim Singh the leader from Panthers party is a great guy and is resected so much in Jammu.



No wonder JKNPP would go to Jammu to celebrate, Jammu is hindu majority while Kashmir is Muslim majority. JKNPP would never dare go to Kashmir Valley for their celebration:


---------------Population&#37; Muslim % Hindu % Sikh % Buddhist/Other 
Kashmir (53.9%) 5,476,970 97.16% 1.84% 0.88% 0.11% 
Jammu (43.7%) 4,430,191 30.69% 65.23% 3.57% 0.51% 


Jammu and Kashmir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

Good that New Delhi realised that we(Jammuites) are also from J&K.

Every time funds are allocated to the state the kashmiri leaders spend most of the amount on kashmiris and forget about Jammu and Ladakh region.

Hopefully now this wont happen after this step being taken.


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## Hulk

Just proves that not all Kashmiri's wants to break from India.


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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

Omar1984 said:


> No wonder JKNPP would go to Jammu to celebrate, Jammu is hindu majority while Kashmir is Muslim majority. JKNPP would never dare go to Kashmir Valley for their celebration:
> 
> 
> ---------------Population% Muslim % Hindu % Sikh % Buddhist/Other
> Kashmir (53.9%) 5,476,970 97.16% 1.84% 0.88% 0.11%
> Jammu (43.7%) 4,430,191 30.69% 65.23% 3.57% 0.51%
> 
> 
> Jammu and Kashmir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




JKNPP doesnt need to go to Jammu..it is already present there.

Its not about Hindu-Muslim...Muslims from Jammu region are also large in number but you wont see them protesting against Indian rule.

Kashmir also belongs to those refugees who live in tents in Jammu.

Kashmir also belongs to those Sikhs who dont have a problem with Indian rule.


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## Omar1984

*Troops martyr three more innocent youth in occupied Kashmir
​*

Srinagar, October 14 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, Indian troops, in their fresh act of state terrorism, martyred three youth in Shopian district today.

During siege and search operations Indian Army&#8217;s 53 Rashtriya Rifles, 44 Rashtriya Rifles and Special Operations Group personnel killed the youth, identified as Shabbir Ahmad, Arif Ahmad and Jan Khan at Chewan in Keller area of the district.


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## Hulk

Omar1984 said:


> No wonder JKNPP would go to Jammu to celebrate, Jammu is hindu majority while Kashmir is Muslim majority. JKNPP would never dare go to Kashmir Valley for their celebration:
> 
> 
> ---------------Population% Muslim % Hindu % Sikh % Buddhist/Other
> Kashmir (53.9%) 5,476,970 97.16% 1.84% 0.88% 0.11%
> Jammu (43.7%) 4,430,191 30.69% 65.23% 3.57% 0.51%
> 
> 
> Jammu and Kashmir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Reverse is true too.


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## Hulk

Omar1984 said:


> *Troops martyr three more innocent youth in occupied Kashmir
> ​*
> 
> Srinagar, October 14 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, Indian troops, in their fresh act of state terrorism, martyred three youth in Shopian district today.
> 
> During siege and search operations Indian Armys 53 Rashtriya Rifles, 44 Rashtriya Rifles and Special Operations Group personnel killed the youth, identified as Shabbir Ahmad, Arif Ahmad and Jan Khan at Chewan in Keller area of the district.



Good job RR, congratulations, people of Shopian are good for nothing.


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## Hyde

*Teachers, students tortured in IHK​*







Updated at: 1055 PST, Thursday, October 14, 2010
Teachers, students tortured in IHK SRINAGAR: *In occupied Kashmir, dozens of people including schoolchildren and government teachers were injured after troopers opened fire and assaulted them in Baramulla district. At least 25 schoolchildren and teachers were injured after being assaulted by Border Security Force (BSF) personnel at Sangrama on Baramulla&#8211;Srinagar highway.
*
The BSF convoy barged into Government Middle School, Sangarama, which was provided cover by the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), eyewitnesses told media men. *The troops abused, misbehaved and thrashed the teachers, including female staff. The troops did not even spare small schoolchildren, as young as six. At least 20 students and five teachers were injured in the troopers&#8217; action, eyewitnesses added.*

Some of the injured schoolchildren have been identified as Shagufta Amin, Masrat Bashir, Sehreena Amin, all 7th class students, Mohammad Amir and Mohammad Ashraf Malik, 8th standard students, Asmat Rashid, 6th standard, Nausheen Akhter and Nilofer Amin, 4th class, Muzammil and Tanveer Nabi, 3rd standard and Kounsar Gulzar, a first standard student.

&#8220;The children were attending the classes, when the BSF men stormed the school and thrashed the teachers without any reason or rhyme. They even beat female teachers, including me,&#8221; *Headmistress, GMS, Sangrama, Kounsar Jabeen told media men. &#8220;The ruckus continued for at least 15 minutes. We urged them not to harm the small children, but they didn&#8217;t listen to us,&#8221; she added.
*
*When the news of beating of students and teachers spread, hundreds of men, women and children, including the family members of the schoolchildren took to streets and staged pro-freedom and anti-India demonstrations in the area. They chanted slogan like &#8220;We want freedom&#8221; and &#8220;Go India go.&#8221;*

On the other hand, about a dozen people including 18-year-old Ashiq Hussain Lone were injured when troopers of 32 Rashtriya Rifles opened fire and used brute force against peaceful protestors at Nadihal in Rafiabad area of Baramulla.

Meanwhile, several other persons were also injured in police and CRPF actions against peaceful protestors in Batamaloo, Rainawari and in Baramulla town.


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## Sprint

Omar1984 said:


> No wonder JKNPP would go to Jammu to celebrate, Jammu is hindu majority while Kashmir is Muslim majority. JKNPP would never dare go to Kashmir Valley for their celebration:
> 
> Jammu and Kashmir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



*your statement reminds me of what AZIZI says in Hasb-e-haal.....CHAL DAUD*


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## Omar1984

indian border security force are worst than animals. how can any human being torture young school children.


who is the terrorist? indian armed forces.

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## SBD-3

indianrabbit said:


> Good job RR, congratulations, people of Shopian are good for nothing.


whats you point btw??????????????....


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## Mohammed Irfan

Omar1984 said:


> *Troops martyr three more innocent youth in occupied Kashmir
> ​*
> 
> Srinagar, October 14 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, Indian troops, in their fresh act of state terrorism, martyred three youth in Shopian district today.
> 
> During siege and search operations Indian Armys 53 Rashtriya Rifles, 44 Rashtriya Rifles and Special Operations Group personnel killed the youth, identified as Shabbir Ahmad, Arif Ahmad and Jan Khan at Chewan in Keller area of the district.





Job Well done.


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## Hulk

hasnain0099 said:


> whats you point btw??????????????....



My point being people of Sophain has never done anything creative.


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## FreekiN

Mohammed Irfan said:


> Job Well done.



Now I see why we arm them with weaponry.


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## PakSher

Now the western media and governments have started to notice Indian atrocities.


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## DesiGuy

Omar1984 said:


> *Troops martyr three more innocent youth in occupied Kashmir
> ​*
> 
> Srinagar, October 14 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, Indian troops, in their fresh act of state terrorism, martyred three youth in Shopian district today.
> 
> During siege and search operations Indian Armys 53 Rashtriya Rifles, 44 Rashtriya Rifles and Special Operations Group personnel killed the youth, identified as Shabbir Ahmad, Arif Ahmad and Jan Khan at Chewan in Keller area of the district.






what a reatired source. full of negative news.


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## Areesh

indianrabbit said:


> My point being people of Sophain has never done anything creative.



Creative like what??? By going your logic you should eliminate half of your nation.


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## Omar1984

*Indigenous uprising in IHK becoming volatile
​*

SITUATION in Indian held Kashmir (IHK) is too volatile as indigenous uprising in the valley has started with a new vigour and determination shown by the Kashmiri youth. Consequently, Indian Security Forces have clamped tough conditions of curfew enforcing the suppressive laws to arrest, torture and disgrace the innocent civilians. The all parties (APC) meeting to discuss the proposed revocation of Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA))- a law that gives unaccountable powers to armed forces in IHK ended without any consensus on the issue. The APC meeting instead decided to send one more delegation comprising members from different political parties to IHK to assess the situation and provide feedback. Obviously the deadlock on AFSPA points towards the real intention of Indian leadership to suppress the uprising in IHK. Duly protected under AFSPA Indian Security Forces commit crimes by coercing the innocent Kashmiris, dishonouring women, torturing and killing children to maintain order in the Valley. International media has not been allowed by Indian censorship to cover these grave human rights violations and they instead cover the so called talks between India and Pakistan on Kashmir issue. Economic and political compulsions are understandable; however, USA, UK and EU must realize that Kashmir dispute has wider geopolitical implications having direct impact on their economic and political objectives. If Pakistan has to play a positive role to fight against terrorism then India must be pressurized to resolve Kashmir issue. Kashmiri youth has given new shape to their movement to fight against the Indian occupied forcers. 

They pelt stones and get together through a collective passion to tell Indians to leave Kashmir and allow them free space where they can breathe freely. Their efforts are very impressive as they stand together for a collective cause. So far they are without outside help but soon they are likely to get more support as their passion and cause is true. Current situation in Kashmir is one of RAWs well-thought-out Plan riddled with dubious moves. The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS)s marathon session to discuss Jammu and Kashmir issue has reflects New Delhis frustration. At the same time, the Kashmiris were dismayed when Indian PM announced that he is not going to pull out a rabbit out of the hat that means genocide will go on unabated, despite 3-months long rioting and imposition of curfew that he crippled the life beyond anybodys guess. Indian occupation forces in Kashmir have failed to suppress the movement for freedom. Indian security forces have used all possible methods and coercive techniques to repress and intimidate Kashmiris but the present uprising shows that the Kashmiri youth is determined with an unwavering resolve to fight for their just cause in order to get their rights of self-determination. The Indian leadership has imposed a ban on the media in Kashmir with an aim to hide their cruel acts of persecution, mass murder and genocide in Kashmir. It is time to express solidarity with the media in IHK and make efforts to force the Indians to lift the ban on media so that the world can see what is actually happening in IHK. The Indian security forces dont even hesitate to misuse and exploit United Nations symbols and helmets to cheat the people and protestors.

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## Gabbar

Really...??? I mean really....? Dailymailnews again?


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## KS

xeric said:


> That's the stupidest thing i have seen around this forum lately.
> 
> TTP militants claim responsibility when they blow up themselves.
> 
> The entire world recognize them as international terrorists.
> 
> They have been declared as terrorists by the international community and they dont get much bothered by it.
> 
> Their presence is RECOGNIZED inside the area bordering Pakistan and Afghanistan by the entire world.
> 
> We (and the world in general) are at open war with them, with a very very very clear line to as who is the guud guy and who is not.
> 
> etc
> etc
> &
> etc



Strawman & Digressive- nothing related to the question I asked.

Let me ask the question again - *When the F-16s of the PAF fires LGB on the mountains,how does it make sure all the people killed are TTP militants .?*



xeric said:


> Let's see how many could you sum up as regards to HM. But before that i would like you to tell us even if HM do operate against the indian aggressors (expect you quoting some 'dot IN' link). Or may be you are still disillusioned and couldnt differentiate between a kid with stones and a bearded animal in shalwar kameez holding an AK!



Same old "kids having stones" bla bla bla.Hizbul are a terrorist organisation proscribed by India,EU and other countries

Sample :

EU - Terror list





xeric said:


> Like i said:



If zombies had Indian passport with their photo on it,legally they are Indian citizens.

Happy.?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Karthic Sri said:


> Strawman & Digressive- nothing related to the question I asked.
> 
> Let me ask the question again - *When the F-16s of the PAF fires LGB on the mountains,how does it make sure all the people killed are TTP militants .?*



what a preposterous question.....

Sorry i had to intervene on this 2-way cross-chatter.

I could easily ask you how do you know all the people your country imposes curfew on are Kashmiris "militant outfits" but i wont adopt such an approach

I would go broader and "re-familiarize" yourself with the idea that when you fight a war against an 'idea' (as opposed to a uniformed enemy) there is no single decisive blow. These things take time. They take effort. Casualties will mount - on both sides. Innocents, much to our pain and chagrine, will lose their lives. This is war. Who said war was something desirable? Things seem to have become inflamed for not all the right reasons. We live with that reality, it sucks. But such is the reality afterall!

When PAF does strafe run using LGBs on militant positions, it does so knowing that it is acting on credible mil-intel based on what it exactly sees as that --- credible mil-intel. It may be fashionable for somebody like you to think Pakistan is some crazy country that loves to kill innocents. Unfortunately for you, you are wrong. 


damned if we take a strong position on a matter, damned if we dont! This is our country, we don't need external analysis on internal affairs. Secure your own first!



> Same old "kids having stones" bla bla bla.Hizbul are a terrorist organisation proscribed by India,EU and other countries



purely a local Kashmiri phenomenon. You want an end to such groups? Then address the issues.


Don't create more. Most importantly (for your own sakes) don't be in denial!




> If zombies had Indian passport with their photo on it,legally they are Indian citizens.
> 
> Happy.?




Dalai Lama would attest to that

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## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> what a preposterous question.....
> 
> Sorry i had to intervene on this 2-way cross-chatter.
> 
> I could easily ask you how do you know all the people your country imposes curfew on are Kashmiris "militant outfits" but i wont adopt such an approach
> 
> I would go broader and "re-familiarize" yourself with the idea that *when you fight a war against an 'idea' (as opposed to a uniformed enemy) there is no single decisive blow.* These things take time. They take effort. *Casualties will mount - on both sides. Innocents, much to our pain and chagrine, will lose their lives.* This is war. Who said war was something desirable? Things seem to have become inflamed for not all the right reasons. We live with that reality, it sucks. But such is the reality afterall!
> 
> When PAF does strafe run using LGBs on militant positions, *it does so knowing that it is acting on credible mil-intel based on what it exactly sees as that --- credible mil-intel.* It may be fashionable for somebody like you to think Pakistan is some crazy country that loves to kill innocents. Unfortunately for you, you are wrong.
> 
> 
> *damned if we take a strong position on a matter, damned if we dont! This is our country, *we don't need external analysis on internal affairs. Secure your own first!



Thank God you had to intervene!!!!

I wanted to say the bolded parts myself.But the same points coming from the fingers of a former think tank looks more credible.

So my answer to the original question of how do IA knows they are Hizbul militants -*credible CI intel.*

Indian Army and its specialised counter-insurgency wing in Kashmir,the RR have developed an extensive network of electronic and human intel assests in Kashmir and they know who comes where,when do they come and whom they kill.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> purely a local Kashmiri phenomenon. You want an end to such groups? Then address the issues.



Doesnt seem a "purely Kashmiri phenomenon" after EU (a consortium of 27 countries) and many other countries have proscribed Hizbul as a terrorist organisation and the founder of that "pure Kashmiri Phenomenon" lives under the patronage of Pakistan.

And yes we are addressing the issues,but in our own way. 




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Don't create more. Most importantly (for your own sakes) don't be in denial!



We are not in denial.We know issues exist and we also know to solve them.

Anyways thanks for your concern but I guess Pakistan ,right now has far more pressing concerns that 100 rioters in a foreign country getting killed over a period of 4 months.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Dalai Lama would attest to that



His Holiness is our Honoured Guest and will remain so...come what may.

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## foxbat

Irfan Baloch said:


> lets meet up and take advantage of that together
> I will really like to go and see in person those miserable call centre guys and gals in banglore that get shouted, insulted and swore at day and night by the people in the west.




I will any day take getting shouted at as against getting droned.. If you know what I mean

BTW not very heartning to see 2 think tanks getting together and indulging in off topic rants.

The topic is Kashmir and not call centers of Banglore..


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## Abu Zolfiqar

well -- fair enough. But do remember that in Kashmir you don't have brainwashed suicide bombers targetting the "Security" forces.....mostly just stone throwing teenagers who are simply angry at the presence of sissy forces trying to artificially "placate" them





LOL @ "his holy highness" 

you seem to have highlighted your inferiority complex after having ''bestowed'' this title on he who is not even indigenous to your country

then again, no new phenomenon i suppose......indians (at least the ones here) tend to be quite.........self-hating!


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## foxbat

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> well -- fair enough. But do remember that in Kashmir you don't have brainwashed suicide bombers targetting the "Security" forces.....mostly just stone throwing teenagers who are simply angry at the presence of sissy forces trying to artificially "placate" them



And this thread is not about the stone throwing teenagers, but the likes of the brainwashed suicide bombers of NWFP, who instead of blowing themselves up in towns like Peshawar, travel to the Indian side of Kashmir to attack and be terminated by the Indian armed forces..

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## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> well -- fair enough. But do remember that in Kashmir you don't have brainwashed suicide bombers targetting the "Security" forces.....mostly just stone throwing teenagers who are simply angry at the presence of sissy forces trying to artificially "placate" them



They dont have suicide bombings because there is no reason for that.Simple.

As for the "stone-throwing-kids", "Sissies" , "Artificially placate"....Well hold onto your straws.




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> LOL @ "his holy highness"
> 
> you seem to have highlighted your inferiority complex after having ''bestowed'' this title on he who is not even indigenous to your country
> 
> then again, no new phenomenon i suppose......indians (at least the ones here) tend to be quite.........self-hating!



He is the top religious figure to about 30 million Buddhists in India,the same status you guys attach to the Prophet.

So isnt the answer self-evident.?

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## Irfan Baloch

Karthic Sri said:


> BTW I didn't expect this from a respected Think tank.



Oh please stop... /blush

me respected? hahaha


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## Irfan Baloch

foxbat said:


> I will any day take getting shouted at as against getting droned.. If you know what I mean
> 
> BTW not very heartning to see 2 think tanks getting together and indulging in off topic rants.
> 
> The topic is Kashmir and not call centers of Banglore..



sir I totally agree. its something to do with the air of the Indian subcontinent that in order to deflate the opponent some "tactical moves are made by both sides. 
Now on the serious side. Do you honestly believe that the whole Kashmiri uprising and dissent against the Indian state is not indigenous? 

Tell me all those people, men women and children shouting in the streets, being shot at dragged and beaten by Indian soldiers are not local Kashmiris?

Do you think these all demonstrations and demand for freedom are isolated cases? 
For your comfort I will bring Bangladesh, people who know the history know that India facilitated, trained and funded the whole movement but was it not also indigenous? Were the East Pakistani Bengalis not genuinely upset with the attitude of west Pakistan?

For the sake of the Name of biggest Democracy, India has the chance to do better and show the world that the resolution of Kashmir can be better & more democratic than the creation of Bangladesh. UN resolutions dont become irrelevant and old just for the sake of conveniences. Indian state has to wake up and make some bold decisions for the sake of over a billion population of this region. Rather we do it together than someone else coming and doing it for us.

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## Irfan Baloch

Gabbar said:


> Really...??? I mean really....? Dailymailnews again?



your PM is not laughing at all
poor man is requesting meetings and conferences with the Kashmiri leadership
Indian administration is loosing sleep over this new wave of protests and now there is no ISI bogeyman to blame
thats tragic for mister Sigh because he is visibly shocked.

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## foxbat

Irfan Baloch said:


> your PM is not laughing at all
> poor man is requesting meetings and conferences with the Kashmiri leadership



And thats his role as the prime minister to address valid issues of every group of citizens. Better late than never.



Irfan Baloch said:


> Indian administration is loosing sleep over this new wave of protests and now there is no ISI bogeyman to blame


Like it loses sleep over poverty erradication, meeting the commonwealth timelines and winning the next elections. Life goes on. Loosing sleep is part of being the administration.



Irfan Baloch said:


> thats tragic for mister Sigh because he is visibly shocked.



huh? Do you think its the first and last time a leader of country is shocked.. examples.. what does this indicate if anything..?

Pak president Asif Ali Zardari shocked over fixing allegations

Pakistani President, PM shocked over air crash in capital - People's Daily Online

Pakistani president shocked at China earthquake losses - People's Daily Online

???? : Pakistan shocked over Polish president''s death - ?????? ???????? - 10/04/2010

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## KS

Irfan Baloch said:


> sir I totally agree. its something to do with the air of the Indian subcontinent that in order to deflate the opponent some "tactical&#8221; moves are made by both sides.
> Now on the serious side. Do you honestly believe that the whole Kashmiri uprising and dissent against the Indian state is not indigenous?
> 
> Tell me all those people, men women and children shouting in the streets, being shot at dragged and beaten by Indian soldiers are not local Kashmiris?
> 
> Do you think these all demonstrations and demand for freedom are isolated cases?
> For your comfort I will bring Bangladesh, people who know the history know that India facilitated, trained and funded the whole movement but was it not also indigenous? Were the East Pakistani Bengalis not genuinely upset with the attitude of west Pakistan?
> 
> For the sake of the Name of biggest Democracy, India has the chance to do better and show the world that the resolution of Kashmir can be better & more democratic than the creation of Bangladesh. UN resolutions don&#8217;t become irrelevant and old just for the sake of conveniences. Indian state has to wake up and make some bold decisions for the sake of over a billion population of this region. Rather we do it together than someone else coming and doing it for us.



There are some mistakes in your post - 

Its not a uprising of entire Kashmiri ppl perse - *only that of a section of the Valley Muslims.*

Indian soldiers are not killing and dragging anyone on the streets - Only non-lethal crowd control measures are allowed and they are implemented strictly

And face it ppl - India is a democracy and any political party making any concessions to Pakistan on Kashmir can immediately kiss their power goodbye,dig a grave and jump into it.
There are certain redlines that no political party will ever dare cross and everybody should understand our limitation also.

So the only way acceptable to us,the general Indian population is to internationalise the LoC.If that's not possible,then nothing is possible.



Irfan Baloch said:


> Oh please stop... /blush
> 
> me respected? hahaha



I for one,like your views on many topics (this not being one)


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## Iggy

Karthic Sri said:


> Strawman & Digressive- nothing related to the question I asked.
> 
> Let me ask the question again - *When the F-16s of the PAF fires LGB on the mountains,how does it make sure all the people killed are TTP militants .?*



Last time there was a discussion about an Air strike by PAF killed women and children in Pakistan opened by Karan ,the discussion get me suspended for one week and the entire thread was deleted ..IS this gave you some idea about what will be his answer?

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## All-Green

Karthic Sri said:


> There are some mistakes in your post -
> 
> Its not a uprising of entire Kashmiri ppl perse - *only that of a section of the Valley Muslims.*



Kashmir valley is more than 95&#37; Muslim so the collective views expressed by the Valley Muslims are in fact of the overwhelming majority.

No matter how gently you portray the picture, the people in general are protesting in Kashmir Valley and Indian state is indeed brutalizing the people all the while it is protecting its agencies from investigation and trials regarding their brutal tactics which include r ape and killing of unarmed civilians.
Hardly any terrorist has been raped.
The r ape case of 2009 really highlighted this again.

These are not hardcore terrorists but ordinary folk who are in the streets now, even harsh police tactics and torture will breed the hatred to the point that there will a young generation which shall have no avenue but to turn to violence and eventually many shall turn to extreme and may even take up terror tactics.

This is what shall come to pass if Indian truly continues in this manner.

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## Irfan Baloch

Karthic Sri said:


> Indian soldiers are not killing and dragging anyone on the streets - Only non-lethal crowd control measures are allowed and they are implemented strictly



Sorry to see that you are so much in denial, 
Be honest now tell me, have you never ever seen even a single video or picture of Kashmiri women weeping on the slain/ tortured corpses of their relatives at the hands of the Indian military? Have you never ever seen wailing civilians being dragged out on the streets and their homes?
Have you never heard about the draconian law called DATA? 
Is that how Indian democracy works in Kashmir? Where the soldiers can kill anyone without any proof or just on the basis of suspicions?
How have conveniently missed the burnt out houses and fake encounters by Indian military for the past 60 years?

Has a fact lost to you that Indian state has to station over a million soldiers in Kashmir to keep its occupation? Do you honestly think that India needs that many soldiers if the uprising is only inspired by ISI and some foreign fighters as claimed by your state?

Do I need to start posting videos & pictures of the mutilated bodies of men who were taken away by security forces during crackdown and then dumped on the side roads?
Come on and show some grit and have the heart to question the atrocities of Indian state that one would only see on an occupation.

Its a pity that my Indian colleagues will continue to ignore the reality and the inevitable outcome. You cant claim to be democratic and fair and then brutally suppress the people who dont want you there. 

Sooner or later India will have to let go of Kashmir. Better to do resolve it from the point of strength. The way the world geopolitical map is changing, the partnerships and alliances are being made and broken before the sun goes down. The Indian policy makers have to think for the future generations as well. a peaceful and amicable resolution will go a long way for this region. Given its size, India will be the biggest benefactor and it will find all its neighbours by it side to challenge the western monopoly on world politics.

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## Irfan Baloch

foxbat said:


> And thats his role as the prime minister to address valid issues of every group of citizens. Better late than never.



sorry I missed the last part of your post. not sure why you wasted the time to copy paste those irrelevent links here

although the start was good no doubt. the point is, major part of India is living in denial that Kashmiris want freedom from India
thats why mostly all Indians try to laugh it off

manmohan Sign is taking it seriously and is an honourable and sincere in resolution, he just needs protection and backing against the Indian hardline right wingers on one hand and a credible and stong goverment in Pakistan

indeed its a big ask and given the current situation both wishes seem hard to get.


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## riju78

Didn't daily mail report that the flag incident of pak team was done by RAW?????


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## Kinetic

Gabbar said:


> Really...??? I mean really....? Dailymailnews again?



lol Its the main 'source' for most of the threads by Omar. 

Front page of the site has some youtube videos links against India.


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## somebozo

As per India this is engineered by ISI and PA.
They talk about being a super power and cant effectively combat a thorn ISI is planting in their bottom for 63 years!

che che..


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## Irfan Baloch

somebozo said:


> As per India this is engineered by ISI and PA.
> They talk about being a super power and cant effectively combat a thorn ISI is planting in their bottom for 63 years!
> 
> che che..


it is disappointing that these Indians find the whole situation in kashmir funny
whereas looking at Indian PM you can tell he is about to cry any time
one can tell that the strain is taking its toll. just because there is limited media access and Indian Media is selective in showing the facts so these guys think its all funny emotes time.

they will see an ISI spy behind every tree in kashmir now because the whole Kashmiri land is against India now.


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## riju78

somebozo said:


> As per India this is engineered by ISI and PA.
> They talk about being a super power and cant effectively combat a thorn ISI is planting in their bottom for 63 years!
> 
> che che..



CORRECTION 21 years since 1989!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Xeric

Karthic Sri said:


> Strawman & Digressive- nothing related to the question I asked.
> 
> Let me ask the question again - *When the F-16s of the PAF fires LGB on the mountains,how does it make sure all the people killed are TTP militants .?*


Lolz....

Shifting poles, aye..??




> Same old "kids having stones" bla bla bla.Hizbul are a terrorist organisation proscribed by India,EU and other countries


Did i ever say HM was NOT a terrorist organization?

JuD has also been declared one. But the concern remains how did you geniuses found out that the deceased were HM? Though i am sure they must be circumcised. 


> Sample :
> 
> EU - Terror list


Lolz...

Grow up!



> If zombies had Indian passport with their photo on it,legally they are Indian citizens.
> 
> Happy.?



Please send me a passport, i'll not bother you with the foto thingy.

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## Xeric

Karthic Sri said:


> There are some mistakes in your post -
> 
> Its not a uprising of entire Kashmiri ppl perse - *only that of a section of the Valley Muslims.*
> 
> Indian soldiers are not killing and dragging anyone on the streets - Only non-lethal crowd control measures are allowed and they are implemented strictly
> 
> And face it ppl - India is a democracy and any political party making any concessions to Pakistan on Kashmir can immediately kiss their power goodbye,dig a grave and jump into it.
> There are certain redlines that no political party will ever dare cross and everybody should understand our limitation also.
> 
> So the only way acceptable to us,the general Indian population is to internationalise the LoC.If that's not possible,then nothing is possible.


Was Hitler and Gengis Khan also given the blue/black lion-ed passport that we missed in the course of history?


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## Areesh

A bit old article but a good read and is very much relevant with the present discussion about Indian state terrorism in IOK.



> *An inconvenient truth has bubbled over in Indian-held Kashmir, blowing the lid off a method that suggests madness in the Indian armys fight against militancy in the troubled region. The method has made murderers of soldiers, and theres no saying how much of the fall of militancy to an all-time low in the troubled region in recent times is owed to terrified submission by the local population.
> But now that the truth is out, pro-independence Kashmiris are back again rampaging through the streets. As of Wednesday morning, 11 civilians have died in the worst flare-up of street violence in the Kashmir Valley in a year. *
> Curfew has been clamped in the northern, central and southern parts of the valley, but as of late Tuesday, pro-independence Kashmiris were still coming out in their hundreds, attacking troops with rocks and sticks in the face of gunfire, teargas bombardment and baton charge.
> The ongoing uprising has its roots in a shocking finding by the state police earlier this month that confirmed long-held suspicions by Kashmiris and human rights activists of brutality by sections of the nearly 500,000 Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) soldiers deployed in the region.
> *The report revealed that the paramilitary soldiers had staged a gunbattle in the town of Anantnag, 55 km south of the capital city of Srinagar, in order to kill three civilians and claim that they were militants. The army was forced to suspend two officers and order a court martial inquiry following the expose..*
> Police and human rights activists say several other recent incidents were similarly staged. These include the killing of three laborers this month who police investigators found were lured to their deaths by locals bribed by an army officer. In another suspicious incident, the army claimed that a 70-year-old beggar they had shot dead was a militant.
> And as recently as last week, police opened an investigation into the deaths of two porters who, according to the army, were hit by gunfire from Pakistani troops across the Line of Control.* Doctors who carried out a postmortem, however, found that the two were shot at close range.*
> The killing of civilians is evidently because the CRPFs method to notch up the headcount of militants is incentivized by a bonus for soldiers bringing in each kill.
> The method, while helping inspire bounty hunters among the troops, can be seriously flawed because, in a region wracked by militant violence for the past 30 years, its not impossible to pin the charge of militancy on anyone.
> Kashmiri outrage over the stage-managed killing of civilians erupted on June 11 after a 11-year-old schoolboy was shot dead by CRPF soldiers deployed to quell a street protest staged by pro-indepence Kashmiris. On Tuesday, the death toll rose to 11 after three more Kashmiris were killed by the troops.
> Eyewitnesses said the soldiers barged into houses and shot people dead. My nephews were killed in our compound. There was no provocation, one report quoted a Kashmiri man as saying.
> Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, who had challenged the Saudi Gazette a year ago to cite any recent instance of a civilian death in Kashmir, is now fast losing ground and goodwill as the new generation leader who has what it takes to turn Kashmir around.
> The Omar Abdullah government has succeeded in turning the state into a land of licensed murder, says Membooba Mufti, his fiercest political opponent and a former chief minister. She blames the troubles on Abdullahs poor administration and inability to speak the local language and thereby vibe with the people.
> For the right-wingers in Indias arch-enemy Pakistan, the uprising could not have been better timed. Last week, the Indian and Pakistan governments resumed talks for paving the way toward lasting peace and succeeded in arriving at a two-track procees whereby discussions on developing commercial relations would be delinked from the political dialogue.
> India had broken off all talks with Pakistan following the Dec. 2008 Mumbai terrorist attacks which it blamed on extrremists operating freely from Pakistani soil. Extremists in Pakistan are against any dialogue with India, and the elected civilain government in Islamabad is taking a grave political risk by pursuing the peace process with New Delhi.
> Political analysts in India argue that the current uprising is staged by Pakistan-implanted extermists operating in Kashmir and that it is not quite a groundswell of popular sentiment. They point to video clips of policemen being brutally assaulted by protestes to make their point. But thats no argument against the madness in the armys method and fire that has been lit.
> The situation is escalating out of control. SMS text-messaging services have been blocked throughout the Kashmir valley to stop more residents from massing. In north Kashmir, cell-phone services have been completely suspended.
> Opposition politicians and protest groups plan to mount a general strike and organize an extended march this weekend.
> And worse, tens of thousands of Hindus started pouring into the Valley Wednesday for their annual pilgrimage to the Amarnath cave shrine in south Kashmir.
> A public demand by hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani that the Amarnath pilgrimage be curtailed to 15 days instead of the present two months has been countered by Leela Karan Sharma, former convener of Shri Amarnath Sangharsh Samiti (SASS).
> If anybody tries to disrupt or create impediments in the (Amarnath) yatra, he will be given befitting reply, Sharma has warned.
> The battle lines are drawn. New Delhi is rushing more troops to the Valley.
> *And the discredited army remains central figure in it all, having more than one battle to fight.
> *
> Feedback: balanramesh@gmail.com __



License to Kill In Kashmir


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## Abu Zolfiqar

foxbat said:


> And this thread is not about the stone throwing teenagers, but the likes of the brainwashed suicide bombers of NWFP, who instead of blowing themselves up in towns like Peshawar, travel to the Indian side of Kashmir to attack and be terminated by the Indian armed forces..



fascinating, show me proof


----------



## KS

All-Green said:


> Kashmir valley is more than 95% Muslim so the collective views expressed by the Valley Muslims are in fact of the overwhelming majority.



Ever wondered how it became 95% majority..? Nearly a million Hindu pandits were terrorised into leaving their native lands by these same separatists and now giving into their demands only validates that ethinic cleansing done in the early 90s.




All-Green said:


> No matter how gently you portray the picture, the people in general are protesting in Kashmir Valley and Indian state is indeed brutalizing the people all the while it is protecting its agencies from investigation and trials regarding their brutal tactics which include r ape and killing of unarmed civilians.
> Hardly any terrorist has been raped.
> *The r ape case of 2009 really highlighted this again.*
> 
> These are not hardcore terrorists but ordinary folk who are in the streets now, even harsh police tactics and torture will breed the hatred to the point that there will a young generation which shall have no avenue but to turn to violence and eventually many shall turn to extreme and may even take up terror tactics.



In a democratic country they have every right to protest for whatever reason they see fit.
But that doesnt mean the state has to fulfil every one of their demands.
The MahaRaja signed the accession of Kashmir in 1947 and that is there to stay.

*This struggle based on a flawed notion of religious intolerance and the supposed supremacy of one religion over other cannot be entertained in a secular democracy.*

*PS: *the bolded apart caught my eye.If by any chance you are mentioning the supposed raping of two girls in Shopian,then sorry it has been proved that they were not raped and they died by drowning in the nullah.
The governement doctor under pressure from the local separatist leaders fudged his report and that has been proved.

So all the killing of unarmed civilians,raping etc are by and large only of propaganda value fed to keep the hate against India alive.


----------



## KS

Irfan Baloch said:


> Sorry to see that you are so much in denial,
> Be honest now tell me, have you never ever seen even a single video or picture of Kashmiri women weeping on the slain/ tortured corpses of their relatives at the hands of the Indian military? Have you never ever seen wailing civilians being dragged out on the streets and their homes?
> Have you never heard about the draconian law called DATA?
> Is that how Indian democracy works in Kashmir? Where the soldiers can kill anyone without any proof or just on the basis of suspicions?
> How have conveniently missed the burnt out houses and fake encounters by Indian military for the past 60 years?
> 
> Has a fact lost to you that Indian state has to station over a million soldiers in Kashmir to keep its occupation? Do you honestly think that India needs that many soldiers if the uprising is only inspired by ISI and some foreign fighters as claimed by your state?
> 
> Do I need to start posting videos & pictures of the mutilated bodies of men who were taken away by security forces during crackdown and then dumped on the side roads?
> Come on and show some grit and have the heart to question the atrocities of Indian state that one would only see on an occupation.
> 
> Its a pity that my Indian colleagues will continue to ignore the reality and the inevitable outcome. You cant claim to be democratic and fair and then brutally suppress the people who dont want you there.
> 
> Sooner or later India will have to let go of Kashmir. Better to do resolve it from the point of strength. The way the world geopolitical map is changing, the partnerships and alliances are being made and broken before the sun goes down. The Indian policy makers have to think for the future generations as well. a peaceful and amicable resolution will go a long way for this region. Given its size, India will be the biggest benefactor and it will find all its neighbours by it side to challenge the western monopoly on world politics.



With respect to your thinkings the reality is in stark contrast to what you have tried to potray.

See I am tired of explaining this again and again.

So I will just say shortly in one sentence - *"Another Partition bassed on religion is not happening in India"* .Period.

The sooner my neighbours and the Valley Muslims realise it,the better for all.


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## KS

xeric said:


> Lolz....
> 
> Shifting poles, aye..??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same old "kids having stones" bla bla bla.Hizbul are a terrorist organisation proscribed by India,EU and other countries
> Did i ever say HM was NOT a terrorist organization?
> 
> JuD has also been declared one.* But the concern remains how did you geniuses found out that the deceased were HM? *Though i am sure they must be circumcised.
Click to expand...


Your buddy Abu answered that question (bolded part) better than I could ever do.

Its called *Counter Insurgency Intel.*..Refer post # 982.



xeric said:


> Lolz...
> 
> Grow up!
> 
> Please send me a passport, i'll not bother you with the foto thingy.





xeric said:


> Was Hitler and Gengis Khan also given the blue/black lion-ed passport that we missed in the course of history?



As for the rest....you always have the option of skippping sections for which you obviously have no answer to and resort to kiddish things like "lollzz" , "Grow up" and some drivels that you thought were witty.lol.


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## Xeric

Karthic Sri said:


> Your buddy Abu answered that question (bolded part) better than I could ever do.
> 
> Its called *Counter Insurgency Intel.*..Refer post # 982.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for the rest....you always have the option of skippping sections for which you obviously have no answer to and resort to kiddish things like "lollzz" , "Grow up" and some drivels that you thought were witty.lol.



Lolz..

i never wanted to say that, but then i dont listen to 'borrowed' answers!

BTW, yes i usually skip rants.

Also i usually avoid arguing to universal lies as doing so would validate them.

Lies like Kashmir is india's integral part, ISI is throwing stones on indian sissies, those killed were HMs etc etc.

Never knew that you had access to your military's intelligence or may be they like to share it with some e-warrior that all of a sudden you came to know that those 'fighters' (even if one should consider them - they probably were some ordinary guys who turned up dead on the hands of aggressors and were named terrorists) belonged to HM.

Talk tangibles dude! or else everyone can create facts. You for one should know this better!

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## KS

xeric said:


> Lolz..
> 
> i never wanted to say that, but then i dont listen to 'borrowed' answers!



Its a tragedy that you didn know of that in the first place and that too from an army background.



xeric said:


> BTW, yes i usually skip rants.



Good to know mine wasnt a rant...cos you havent skipped that.


----------



## Xeric

Karthic Sri said:


> Its a tragedy that you didn know of that in the first place and that too from an army background.



You are trying to give me a borrowed answer from Abu and surprisingly you still dont feel shame.

Use that tiny little thing laying useless up in your head if you want to discuss something with me.

But alas! This may be too subtle for some especially people like you, or else you shouldnt have resorted to yaps, AGAIN.


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

HuM isn't the only anti-indian Kashmiri group operating in the valley....as usual, the sissies give us too much credit for an otherwise purely local phenomenon


nobody there is doing our bidding......they have no other way than to take up arms to resist the increasingly troublesome occupation


----------



## Xeric

Duck....!!


----------



## Xeric

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> HuM isn't the only anti-indian Kashmiri group operating in the valley....as usual, the sissies give us too much credit for an otherwise purely local phenomenon
> 
> 
> nobody there is doing our bidding......they have no other way than to take up arms to resist the increasingly troublesome occupation



i m sure mothers in india must have forgotten Gabbar and replaced in with ISI to make their kids go to bed!

ISI is such a bada$$....!!

And surprisingly, they do it without proof, atleast gabbar scared the shyt out an unwitting viewer.


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

well, whatever helps them get some shut-eye!


----------



## Contrarian

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> as will that of the occupied Kashmiris' as is clearly evident!
> 
> 
> been following the news lately?



I think your missing the trend. Either ways, believe it if it satisfies you.


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

malaymishra123 said:


> I think your missing the trend.



oh?? 




> Either ways, believe it if it satisfies you.



this isn't about me or my 'satisfaction'


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

*Viewpoint: 'Killing the Truth' in Kashmir​*






> *Local journalists have been beaten and prevented from covering recent unrest in Indian-administered Kashmir. More than 100 people have died since June during clashes between security forces and anti-government protesters in some of the bloodiest scenes the disputed state has seen in years. *
> 
> Sajjad Haider, editor of The Kashmir Observer in Srinagar, describes what it is like for journalists trying to cover the deaths of members of their own community while under curfew.
> 
> A local journalist working for the BBC recently had to get his pink-coloured curfew pass, specially designed for the press, replaced with one meant for those attending marriage ceremonies in order to reach me at my home in curfew-bound central Srinagar.
> 
> A considerate police officer had told him that this was the best option if he wanted to escape the wrath of the security personnel enforcing the curfew on the streets.
> 
> *The treatment of local reporters by the authorities is in contrast to that received by visiting correspondents.*
> 
> They have come to be known locally as "embedded journalists" and are accorded full assistance by the state government to move around freely in Kashmir.
> 
> *Local journalists covering the unrest - and living amid it - were banned from moving around during the curfew while permit cards issued to them were cancelled.*
> 
> The Kashmir Press Association recently said this amounted to an "unwritten ban" on local media outlets and accused the government of adopting a discriminatory attitude.
> 
> "Scores of local journalists have been thrashed while discharging their professional duties," it said.
> 
> *Not long after, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah had to apologise when a well-known local journalist was beaten by police. An investigation was announced - but regrets and promises of probes are not new for Kashmir. *
> 
> The fact is the situation for the media has not changed a bit here.
> 
> *Freedom Calls*
> 
> For me, journalists working for local newspapers are exceptional individuals operating in exceptional circumstances - without any safeguards and guarantees either from their respective organisations or from the state.
> 
> *Calls for "Azadi" (freedom) probably ring in the ears of Kashmiri journalists even when they are asleep. *
> 
> On 11 June, mass civilian protests erupted in Srinagar when a 17-year-old boy died after being hit on the head by a police tear gas canister in the congested old part of the city. A month later, local journalists joined the calls for freedom, demanding their own liberation.
> 
> Killings had happened before, but why the outcry this time? Actually, on 11 June there was not one death, but two.
> 
> *After the boy died, police sought to put the blame on those who had tried to rush him to hospital to save his life. The police killed the boy first - and then killed the truth. *
> 
> The real catalyst of the current uprising in Kashmir is not so much the first killing as the second. Undoubtedly, the present situation is a continuation of events that have afflicted the region for the past 20 years.
> 
> All it needed was a spark. It is a bid to break free of the suffocation in which people find themselves here. The haunting question is how much the Kashmiri media have lived up to the expectations of their people.
> 
> The bitter reality is that, while it may have progressed over the last 20 years, it has not become completely free.
> 
> The absence of private businesses in Kashmir, the dependence on government advertisements, the government's monopoly on the flow of information and the fear of reprisals are all factors which have prohibited the growth of a fully free media.
> 
> So local reports are sometimes constrained to give space to propaganda alongside the facts.
> 
> For example, on 24 September the Jammu and Kashmir police rejected media reports that 2,000 people had been injured in police and paramilitary action during 105 days of unrest.
> 
> Questioning the figures, a spokesperson for the police said that only 504 civilians had been injured. But according to him, the number of police and Central Reserve Police Force personnel injured was nearly 4,000.
> 
> *However, according to the register of one single hospital in Srinagar (the SK Institute of Medical Sciences), 599 civilians with firearms injuries had been admitted during this period. *
> 
> There are dozens of other hospitals treating the injured in the rest of Kashmir.
> 
> *'Let down'*
> 
> *Curfews have made moving around freely impossible In Kashmir today there are about 25 news channels available - but not one of them is Kashmiri. *
> 
> The local media are limited either to newspapers or to a handful of cable channels.
> 
> *As if that was not enough, the government appears terrified of what remains of their freedom.*
> 
> Curfew passes were issued to accredited journalists only, as local authorities do not recognise the non-accredited journalists who form the bulk of the journalist population here. The tough accreditation rules they have formulated make it virtually impossible for local newspaper reporters.
> 
> *How can newspapers be circulated when there are severe restrictions on public movement?*
> 
> The problems are not all to do with government curbs - Srinagar-based newspapers have had to suspend publication at times because of a lack of advisements as well.
> 
> The reality is that newspapers, which heavily rely on the revenue from government advertisements, are facing huge losses and many publications have had to lay off staff.
> 
> Many newspapers are on the brink of closure as the separatist strikes coupled with government curfews have closed whatever little private advertisement flow was coming their way.
> 
> *It makes it all the harder to meet the expectations of a people who feel let down by their own media.*





BBC News - Viewpoint: &#039;Killing the truth&#039; in Kashmir


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

*Viewpoint: 'Killing the Truth' in Kashmir​*





> *Local journalists have been beaten and prevented from covering recent unrest in Indian-administered Kashmir. More than 100 people have died since June during clashes between security forces and anti-government protesters in some of the bloodiest scenes the disputed state has seen in years. *
> 
> Sajjad Haider, editor of The Kashmir Observer in Srinagar, describes what it is like for journalists trying to cover the deaths of members of their own community while under curfew.
> 
> A local journalist working for the BBC recently had to get his pink-coloured curfew pass, specially designed for the press, replaced with one meant for those attending marriage ceremonies in order to reach me at my home in curfew-bound central Srinagar.
> 
> A considerate police officer had told him that this was the best option if he wanted to escape the wrath of the security personnel enforcing the curfew on the streets.
> 
> *The treatment of local reporters by the authorities is in contrast to that received by visiting correspondents.*
> 
> They have come to be known locally as "embedded journalists" and are accorded full assistance by the state government to move around freely in Kashmir.
> 
> *Local journalists covering the unrest - and living amid it - were banned from moving around during the curfew while permit cards issued to them were cancelled.*
> 
> The Kashmir Press Association recently said this amounted to an "unwritten ban" on local media outlets and accused the government of adopting a discriminatory attitude.
> 
> "Scores of local journalists have been thrashed while discharging their professional duties," it said.
> 
> *Not long after, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah had to apologise when a well-known local journalist was beaten by police. An investigation was announced - but regrets and promises of probes are not new for Kashmir. *
> 
> The fact is the situation for the media has not changed a bit here.
> 
> *Freedom Calls*
> 
> For me, journalists working for local newspapers are exceptional individuals operating in exceptional circumstances - without any safeguards and guarantees either from their respective organisations or from the state.
> 
> *Calls for "Azadi" (freedom) probably ring in the ears of Kashmiri journalists even when they are asleep. *
> 
> On 11 June, mass civilian protests erupted in Srinagar when a 17-year-old boy died after being hit on the head by a police tear gas canister in the congested old part of the city. A month later, local journalists joined the calls for freedom, demanding their own liberation.
> 
> Killings had happened before, but why the outcry this time? Actually, on 11 June there was not one death, but two.
> 
> *After the boy died, police sought to put the blame on those who had tried to rush him to hospital to save his life. The police killed the boy first - and then killed the truth. *
> 
> The real catalyst of the current uprising in Kashmir is not so much the first killing as the second. Undoubtedly, the present situation is a continuation of events that have afflicted the region for the past 20 years.
> 
> All it needed was a spark. It is a bid to break free of the suffocation in which people find themselves here. The haunting question is how much the Kashmiri media have lived up to the expectations of their people.
> 
> The bitter reality is that, while it may have progressed over the last 20 years, it has not become completely free.
> 
> The absence of private businesses in Kashmir, the dependence on government advertisements, the government's monopoly on the flow of information and the fear of reprisals are all factors which have prohibited the growth of a fully free media.
> 
> So local reports are sometimes constrained to give space to propaganda alongside the facts.
> 
> For example, on 24 September the Jammu and Kashmir police rejected media reports that 2,000 people had been injured in police and paramilitary action during 105 days of unrest.
> 
> Questioning the figures, a spokesperson for the police said that only 504 civilians had been injured. But according to him, the number of police and Central Reserve Police Force personnel injured was nearly 4,000.
> 
> *However, according to the register of one single hospital in Srinagar (the SK Institute of Medical Sciences), 599 civilians with firearms injuries had been admitted during this period. *
> 
> There are dozens of other hospitals treating the injured in the rest of Kashmir.
> 
> *'Let down'*
> 
> *Curfews have made moving around freely impossible In Kashmir today there are about 25 news channels available - but not one of them is Kashmiri. *
> 
> The local media are limited either to newspapers or to a handful of cable channels.
> 
> *As if that was not enough, the government appears terrified of what remains of their freedom.*
> 
> Curfew passes were issued to accredited journalists only, as local authorities do not recognise the non-accredited journalists who form the bulk of the journalist population here. The tough accreditation rules they have formulated make it virtually impossible for local newspaper reporters.
> 
> *How can newspapers be circulated when there are severe restrictions on public movement?*
> 
> The problems are not all to do with government curbs - Srinagar-based newspapers have had to suspend publication at times because of a lack of advisements as well.
> 
> The reality is that newspapers, which heavily rely on the revenue from government advertisements, are facing huge losses and many publications have had to lay off staff.
> 
> Many newspapers are on the brink of closure as the separatist strikes coupled with government curfews have closed whatever little private advertisement flow was coming their way.
> 
> *It makes it all the harder to meet the expectations of a people who feel let down by their own media.*





BBC News - Viewpoint: &#039;Killing the truth&#039; in Kashmir

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## Abu Zolfiqar

silent hill said:


> well its upto kashmiris and not bharatis



the people sitting in new delhi are to this day still in denial.....

they know that a referendum would not be in their favour NOT because of the so-called "conditions for plebisite" which the hindustanys here will bring up desperately from time to time


reason is simple --- anti-indian sentiment runs extremely high in the (Muslim majority) Kashmir region. That is a FACT, even western media acknowledges this reality.


----------



## foxbat

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> the people sitting in new delhi are to this day still in denial.....
> 
> they know that a referendum would not be in their favour NOT because of the so-called "conditions for plebisite" which the hindustanys here will bring up desperately from time to time
> 
> 
> reason is simple --- anti-indian sentiment runs extremely high in the (Muslim majority) Kashmir region. That is a FACT, even western media acknowledges this reality.



If anti national sentiment at a given point in time was an indicator for a country to give up a part of its territory, then Pakistan would have given up Sindh, Balochistan and a large part of NWFP over last 60 years

Countries dont work that way, no matter how much the internet warriors would want them to.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

foxbat said:


> If anti national sentiment at a given point in time was an indicator for a country to give up a part of its territory, then Pakistan would have given up Sindh, Balochistan and a large part of NWFP over last 60 years
> 
> Countries dont work that way, no matter how much the internet warriors would want them to.



the very reply I anticipated! 

So typical of you (and people of your mindset) to bring up integral Provinces of Pakistan in a discussion that is encompassing (internationally recognized) disputed territory

it has become a bad habit....

I don't see draconian laws being exercized in any of those NON-DISPUTED areas anyways; I dont see curfews, suppression of media or suppression of dissent. Social issues do exist which need to be corrected --same goes for 1/3 of india (AKA the red corridor; along with other issues in northeast)


Kashmir is a whole other picture. We are seeing the grim realities everyday, despite media blackouts, censorship and intimidation tactics by the occupational forces (sissies)

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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> the very reply I anticipated!
> 
> So typical of you (and people of your mindset) to bring up integral Provinces of Pakistan in a discussion that is encompassing (internationally recognized) disputed territory
> 
> it has become a bad habit....
> 
> I don't see draconian laws being exercized in any of those NON-DISPUTED areas anyways; I dont see curfews, suppression of media or suppression of dissent. Social issues do exist which need to be corrected --same goes for 1/3 of india (AKA the red corridor; along with other issues in northeast)
> 
> 
> Kashmir is a whole other picture. We are seeing the grim realities everyday, despite media blackouts, censorship and intimidation tactics by the occupational forces (sissies)



1. The UN today asks for India and Pakistan to solve Kashmir issue bilaterally. Its only Pakistan thats floggin the dead horse of a 1948 resolution.. Keep doing that. Loads of good it has done to Pakistan in 1971, 1984 and now
2. Look up the EU parliaments report on Kashmir - both sides and you will know where there are more draconian laws and media blackouts.
3. About sissies, going by the outcomes of the confrontations between India and Pakistan, guess Pakistan armed forces can easily claim the title of Super Sissies then.


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

karan.1970 said:


> 1. The UN today asks for India and Pakistan to solve Kashmir issue bilaterally



and hindustan seems to state that there is no room for negotiation; Kashmiris however are not of that view, and they are the people of the Disputed Territory. 

it only seems to be you people who are at loggerheads and odds with not only the Pakistanis, but the Kashmiris themselves (hence all the unrest and anti-indian sentiment, which seems to have no end in sight)




> Its only Pakistan thats floggin the dead horse of a 1948 resolution.. Keep doing that. Loads of good it has done to Pakistan in 1971, 1984 and now



and india flogs the dead horse everyday when it brings up so-called "militancy" and "ISI support for anti-state elements" when even the KASHMIRIS themselves angrily assert that it is a purely local resistance that receives little to no support from outsiders

I think i'll take the word of a Kashmiri over a few loosely worded, unproven statements by hindustany officials....thank you very much 




> 2. Look up the EU parliaments report on Kashmir - both sides and you will know where there are more draconian laws and media blackouts.




and you should look at the news! 

here's one for ya


BBC News - Viewpoint: &#039;Killing the truth&#039; in Kashmir




> 3. About sissies, going by the outcomes of the confrontations between India and Pakistan, guess Pakistan armed forces can easily claim the title of Super Sissies then.



interesting, considering the fact that the latter fought an enemy many times its size and held its ground quite well despite numbers and odds against it 

whether in the air or on the ground. 


hardly constitutes "sissiness" except only to the logic-devoid


----------



## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> and hindustan seems to state that there is no room for negotiation; Kashmiris however are not of that view, and they are the people of the Disputed Territory.
> 
> it only seems to be you people who are at loggerheads and odds with not only the Pakistanis, but the Kashmiris themselves (hence all the unrest and anti-indian sentiment, which seems to have no end in sight)


There is no room for negotiation around redrawing of boundaries. And Kashmiris are not a different nationality you know. They still carry the Indian Voter card and Passport. So our situation with Pakistanis (an international relation) is different to the one with Kashmiris(an internal issue). The odds were much worse in Punjab and Assam. 






Abu Zolfiqar said:


> and india flogs the dead horse everyday when it brings up so-called "militancy" and "ISI support for anti-state elements" when even the KASHMIRIS themselves angrily assert that it is a purely local resistance that receives little to no support from outsiders


Smart mixing up of a 20 year old Pakistani sponsored insurgency and terrorism in India with a recent spate of protests (last 4 months). While the 2nd may well be a local phenomena, the 1st is surely is in line with Pakistan's decades old strategy of using non state actors in promoting insurgency (aka Afghanistan and Kashmir) in foreign countries







Abu Zolfiqar said:


> and you should look at the news!
> 
> here's one for ya
> 
> 
> BBC News - Viewpoint: 'Killing the truth' in Kashmir



Again, hiding behind the recent protests in Kashmir.. Doesnt take away the realities of so called Azad Kashmir and the northern areas.. Does it? lol?



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> interesting, considering the fact that the latter fought an enemy many times its size and held its ground quite well despite numbers and odds against it
> 
> whether in the air or on the ground.
> 
> 
> hardly constitutes "sissiness" except only to the logic-devoid



If the larger enemy was composed of sissies, then the size shouldnt matter .. should it??

what does that tell you?? While its a different discussion if PA held its ground or not, considering Bangladesh and Siachen, that horse has been flogged to death as well...

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## KS

karan.1970 said:


> *If the larger enemy was composed of sissies, then the size shouldnt matter .. should it??*
> 
> what does that tell you?? While its a different discussion if PA held its ground or not, considering Bangladesh and Siachen, that horse has been flogged to death as well...

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## Omar1984

Omar just a Pakistan puppet: Yuva Morcha



Bharatiya Janata Yuva Morcha national president Anurag Thakur said Jawaharlal Nehru was responsible to a great extent for the Kashmir problem. The youth leader said the problem magnified when he took the matter to the UNO in 1948 and made it international. 


Thakhur, along with MP Navjot Singh Sidhu had come to Ludhiana to start off the India first campaign to save J&K. Both were addressing a mega rally at Janakpuri market and apart from targeting the first Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, *they also called J&K Chief Minister Omar Abdullah a puppet in the hands of Pakistan*. 


Sidhu said, Omar had raised a slogan in Parliament once that he is an Indian and Kashmir is a part of India and today his activities are favouring more Pakistan. *In Lal Chowk even today flag of Pakistan is being hoisted. Thakur said*, The aim of the campaign is to awaken the masses and specially the youth to rise and think about Jammu and Kashmir which is their own. *We all will go in large numbers to hoist flag of India at Lal Chowk*. In addition to this if J&K government will do any activity to decrease the powers of Army, we will oppose it in a massive way. 


The leaders raised the old slogan.....doodh mangoge to kheer denge, Kashmir mangoge to cheer denge. They also criticised the role of Mehbooba Mufti, president of Peoples Democratic Party(PDP). The campaign will be taken in the other parts of the country as well so as to mobilise the youth about the J&K problem, said Thakur.



Omar just a Pakistan puppet: Yuva Morcha


----------



## Spring Onion

hahahah *hoisting Indian flag by BJP invaders in Lal Chowk is one thing and hoisting Pakistani flag by ordinary Kashmiris in Lal Chowk braving Indian guns is totally another *

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## KS

Poor Omar - called Indian puppet by pakistanis and Pakistan Puppet by BJP.

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## Coltsfan

Omar1984,

The thread title is misleading. It is not an official position of BJP, it was the statement of Youth wing of BJP leader.

I hope you will appreciate the nuanced difference b/w the two.


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## parasite

Sometimes I have to agree with policies of BJP....but calling omar a pakistani puppet is a bit too much.....

and I dont think its useful discussing same JK topic again and again.....

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## Areesh

> In Lal Chowk even today flag of Pakistan is being hoisted. Thakur said







> We all will go in large numbers to hoist flag of India at Lal Chowk



Oh how brave of you. Looks like your integral part and unbreakable part rant is in need of these foolish acts to strengthen itself. Go raise the flag to make it look like the integral part of India which it isn't.

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## Jungibaaz

He is an ISI RAW double agent!


----------



## Spring Onion

*Omar Abdullah trying to internationalise Kashmir issue: BJP*



NEW DELHI: Keeping up its attack on Jammu and Kashmir chief minister Omar Abdullah over his remarks that the state had acceded to India and not merged, the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) Friday termed his comments "laughable" and accused him of trying to internationalise the Kashmir issue.

Senior BJP leader Murli Manohar Joshi said here that various princely states had acceded to India and had not merged and Jammu and Kashmir was no exception.

"His comments are laughable. Various princely states joined India under the Instrument of Accession. There was no instrument of merger," Joshi said.

He said the Indian Constitution clearly states that Jammu and Kashmir is and shall be an integral part of India.

Terming Abdullah's remarks as "irresponsible", Joshi said it gives rise to several apprehensions and amounts to backing the separatists.

Referring to the chief minister's remarks on Kashmir being an issue between two neighbours, he said the internal situation in the state was not a matter to be discussed with the neighbour.

"He (Abdullah) is trying to internationalise the issue. He is trying to involve Pakistan where it is not required," Joshi said, adding that the only issue to be discussed with Pakistan was about its illegal occupation of territory that belongs to India.

He said the Kashmir issue was related to India's security and the country will not accept anyone working against the country's interests.

Asked if he was demanding Abdullah's resignation, Joshi said he was warning him for the present.



Read more: Omar Abdullah trying to internationalise Kashmir issue: BJP - The Times of India Omar Abdullah trying to internationalise Kashmir issue: BJP - The Times of India


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## r3alist

> Omar Abdullah trying to internationalise Kashmir issue: BJP




its his democratic right to...but what would indians know about that?


----------



## Spring Onion

r3alist said:


> its his democratic right to...but what would indians know about that?



Abdullah family has did alot of betrayals of own Kashmiri people for the sake of invader Indians but realities are far stronger which are now slowly being dawned upon Abdullah family


----------



## r3alist

Jana said:


> Abdullah family has did alot of betrayals of own Kashmiri people for the sake of invader Indians but realities are far stronger which are now slowly being dawned upon Abdullah family



i doubt it, a puppet does not become a human over night - it seems like a bit of realpolitik, as everyone knows kashmir is heating up BIG TIME so he is just doing a bit of appeasing, but as they say actions>>> words and he will continue to do nothing.

he will probably come out with a pro india statement quite soon, its just a game for him


----------



## Spring Onion

r3alist said:


> i doubt it, a puppet does not become a human over night - it seems like a bit of realpolitik, as everyone knows kashmir is heating up BIG TIME so he is just doing a bit of appeasing, but as they say actions>>> words and he will continue to do nothing.
> 
> he will probably come out with a pro india statement quite soon, its just a game for him



Its about becoming human but taking ground realities and one of these realities is that in an Independent Kashmir Omar might have some standing but being an Indian puppet he can only survive over Dehli asheerwad


----------



## Awesome

Oh yes he's a Pakistani puppet now kick out this murdering scrumbag and try him for being a traitor and cooperating with Pakistan.

More seriously, he may not be a Pakistani puppet, but his actions have helped validate all that Pakistan has been saying about India on Kashmir. So India is better off kicking him out anyway.


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## Awesome

I should add, not that I'm hoping for this murdering scumbag to keep killing Kashmiris just to prove Pakistan right.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Well Geelani regardless of views has much more credibilty amongst most Kashmiris than Omar Abdullah (whose family lives comfortably in New delhi of course) 


no doubt about that!


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## Spring Onion

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Well Geelani regardless of views has much more credibilty amongst most Kashmiris than Omar Abdullah (whose family lives comfortably in New delhi of course)
> 
> 
> no doubt about that!



 even the puppets are now realising 

check out 


http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/76893-bjp-thinks-omar-abdullah-pakistan-puppet.html


----------



## S_O_C_O_M

*Geelani appeals ICJ to probe mass graves in OSJK ​* 
TopNews 
Written by KMS 
Friday, 15 October 2010 14:43 







Srinagar, October 15, 2010: Chairman of All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC), Syed Ali Shah Geelani, has appealed the International Court of Justice (ICJ) and War Crimes Tribunal of the United Nations to initiate probe into the unmarked and mass graves in Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK).

*Syed Ali Shah Geelani, in a media interview, said that during the past two decades more than 10,000 Kashmiris went missing in the custody of Indian Army and various Indian agencies*.

Unmarked and mass graves have been found in several areas of the occupied valley. We believe that most of the Kashmiris who have been subjected to enforced disappearance have been buried in these unmarked and mass graves,&#8221; he added.

He asked the international rights organisations to unmask the perpetrators through an independent inquiry. Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that last year the International Peoples Tribunal (IPT) on Human Rights and Justice in its report had claimed to find 2,700 unmarked and mass graves containing bodies of 2,943 people.

Citing example of extra-judicial killings, APHC Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that in 2006 five people mostly from Islamabad district were killed in a fake encounter by the Special Operations Group of Indian Army to get rewards and promotions.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani maintained that solution for all the problems of Kashmiris was complete demilitarisation. &#8220;Till the troopers leave the territory, Kashmiris would continue to suffer,&#8221; he maintained.

The Amnesty International has urged the Indian government to end the torture of those held by the authorities. Asia-Pacific Deputy Programme Director of Amnesty International, Madhu Malhotra, in a statement said, " India needs to address the issue of torture and ensure that the human rights of detainees are protected."

The Amnesty International said that Indian troops were perpetrating the gross rights abuses with impunity due to the invocation of draconian laws like Armed Forces Special Forces (AFSPA) in the occupied territory.

The 6th annual Kashmir-European Union (EU) Week inaugurated in Brussels as a part of an awareness process to inform the European institutions and the people about the Kashmir dispute. The Prime Minister of Azad Kashmir, Sardar Attique Khan, addressing the inaugural ceremony in Brussels, highlighted the gross human rights violations perpetrated by Indian police across the occupied valley.

He appealed the European Union to play its role in resolving the Kashmir dispute. The Chairman of Kashmir Centre Brussels, Barrister Abdul Majeed Tramboo, expressed concern over the killing of at least 118 innocent Kashmiris by Indian police and Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) personnel during the current agitation.

Tramboo dedicated the 6th annual Kashmir-EU Week to the Kashmiri youth, martyred by the police and said that the gross rights abuses by the occupation forces would be at very top of agenda during the event. He said that the presence of hundreds of thousands of Indian troops across the territory was causing environmental degradation.

Timothy Kirkhope, Member European Parliament (MEP), highlighted that a solution of the longstanding dispute should be sought at all levels. James Elles, another MEP in his closing remarks, discussed the nuclear dimension of the Kashmir conflict.

The MEP said that the event had become a permanent feature of the European Parliament. Among others, Professor Nazir Ahmed Shawl and Richard Howitt also spoke on the occasion.

APHC-M has strongly condemned the restrictions on the movement of its Chairman, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, by Indian forces. The APHC-M spokesman in a statement issued in Srinagar said that the police did not allow Mirwaiz to go to Jinab Sahib in Soura and adjoining areas by sealing his residence.

He said, &#8220;As per the programme, Mirwaiz had to offer Asr prayers at Jinab Sahib in Soura. He was scheduled to visit the family members of those who were subjected to sever harassment, fear and torture by Indian troops.&#8221;

Geelani appeals ICJ to probe mass graves in OSJK


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## Mirza Jatt

*Two LeT militants killed in encounter in Rajouri*

Two Lashker-e-Toiba (LeT) militants were killed on Saturday (October 16) in an encounter with the security forces in higher reaches of Budhal in Rajouri district of Jammu and Kashmir, defence sources said. 

On specific information about the presence of a group of militants, security forces launched a search operation in higher reaches of Budhal, about 244 kms from here, in Rajouri this morning, they said. 

During the search, an encounter broke out between the militants and the operation parties in which two ultras were killed, they said. 

The bodies of the slain militants have not been yet recovered as the gunbattle was on, the sources said. 

Two LeT militants killed in encounter in Rajouri- TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos

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## IBRIS

Indian Jatt said:


> *Two LeT militants killed in encounter in Rajouri*
> 
> Two Lashker-e-Toiba (LeT) militants were killed on Saturday (October 16) in an encounter with the security forces in higher reaches of Budhal in Rajouri district of Jammu and Kashmir, defence sources said.
> 
> On specific information about the presence of a group of militants, security forces launched a search operation in higher reaches of Budhal, about 244 kms from here, in Rajouri this morning, they said.
> 
> During the search, an encounter broke out between the militants and the operation parties in which two ultras were killed, they said.
> 
> The bodies of the slain militants have not been yet recovered as the gunbattle was on, the sources said.
> 
> Two LeT militants killed in encounter in Rajouri- TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos


Seems like militants are getting desperate to infiltrate into Indian Kashmir before the stormy winter begins. Our Jawans are looking forward to greet them with bullets before they hibernate for this winter. Everyday we are hearing good news. New sensors on Border are paying off...


----------



## S_O_C_O_M

*Pak to break good news on Kashmir​*
*We would never step back from our principles​*





Lahore, Oct 16: Asserting that his country was very much concerned about the solution of Kashmir issue, Pakistan Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani Saturday said people would hear good news on Kashmir soon.

Addressing a meeting after a briefing on the Kashmir issue by Prime Minister of Pakistan administered Kashmir (PaK) Sardar Atique Ahmad Khan, on his arrival from a high-level meeting on Kashmir at Brussels, Gilani said that Pakistan was very much concerned about the solution of the issue. We would never step back from our principles, he said.

Congratulating the nation and Kashmiri people on international acceptance of demands of Pakistan on Kashmir issue, Gilani said people would hear good news on Kashmir soon.

Earlier, Sardar Atique told Gilani that it was a great achievement of the government in foreign affairs after 63 years that parliament of the European Union (EU) had accepted the issue of Kashmir as an international issue and initiated its hearing in the parliament.

He said the United Nation, EU and OIC had included the issue in their official documents by adopting a common mechanism on the issue.

He declared it is great success of foreign policy of the government and said the standing committee of EU parliament on Kashmir had restarted its work on the issue.

He thanked prime minister Gilani for his special contribution to rehabilitation work in earthquake affected areas of Kashmir, prompt help to the masses during floods and focusing on the torture of Indian forces on Kashmiri people. 

Pak to break good news on Kashmir


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## Coltsfan

r3alist said:


> its his democratic right to...but what would indians know about that?



LOL ........ Yes of-course, Indians wouldn't know as much about "democracy" as Pakistanis

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## Kambojaric

Lol @ BJP,


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## ajtr

*'Good News' on Kashmir Soon: Gilani​*


Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani today said the international community had accepted Pakistan's stand on the Kashmir issue and people would soon hear "good news" in this regard.

Gilani made the remarks while addressing a meeting after a briefing on the Kashmir issue by the "Prime Minister" of Pak-occupied part of kashmir, Atique Ahmad Khan, on his return to the country after a visit to Brussels.

He did not say what the "good news" would be.

Pakistan is very concerned about the solution of the Kashmir issue and it will never step back from its principles, he said.

Khan told Gilani that it was a great achievement for the Pakistan government that the parliament of the European Union had accepted the Kashmir issue as an international matter and initiated a hearing.

He claimed the UN, EU and the Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC) had included the issue in their official documents by adopting a common mechanism.

He further claimed it was a great success for Pakistan's foreign policy that the EU parliament's standing committee on Kashmir had restarted its work on the issue.


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## silent hill

good news would be, gelani takes 10&#37; zerdari 10% rest take 10% on indian bribe to back away from this issue for ever.. a big compromise on kashmir issue would be the good news

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## KS

Indian Jatt said:


> The bodies of the slain militants have not been yet recovered *as the gunbattle was on,* the sources said.



Expect more good news tomorrow.


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## KS

*The ICJ should also probe the mass-killings of the Kashmiri Pandits by the terrorists.*


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## notsuperstitious

Pakistan should hand over dental records and DNA samples of all the thousands of pakistanis who were sent to kashmir for Jihad. Their bodies can then be exhumed, identified and sent back.


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## Coltsfan

Irfan Baloch said:


> lets meet up and take advantage of that together
> I will really like to go and see in person those miserable call centre guys and gals in banglore that get shouted, insulted and swore at day and night by the people in the west.



I would rather get shouted and swore at than be called Talibani terrorist and have a US drone hovering over my shack

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## DESERT FIGHTER

fateh71 said:


> Pakistan should hand over dental records and DNA samples of all the thousands of pakistanis who were sent to kashmir for Jihad. Their bodies can then be exhumed, identified and sent back.



Dont drink and post buddy....... its hazardous....

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## somebozo

Something is up with AJK as the Saudis are also mobilising massive financial and material aid plans specifically targetted at AJK and its residents. A feat which had not been on their radar traditionally.


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## nForce

somebozo said:


> Something is up with AJK as the Saudis are also mobilising massive financial and material aid plans specifically targetted at AJK and its residents. A feat which had not been on their radar traditionally.



Source please


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## somebozo

Keep an eye on SPAPEV activity. A permenant body established by Saudi Arabia to develop AJK region.

Also AJK residents have been awarded prefencial labour visas to uplift themselves from poverty.


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## nForce

somebozo said:


> Keep an eye on SPAPEV activity. A permenant body established by Saudi Arabia to develop AJK region.
> 
> Also AJK residents have been awarded prefencial labour visas to uplift themselves from poverty.



*
SPAPEV=Saudi Public Assistance for Pakistan Earthquake Vicitms*

It is basically a relief organization,not a development oriented organization.There is a big difference.
Also,I still didnt get the source supporting your claim.

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## blain2

> Congratulating the nation and Kashmiri people on international acceptance of demands of Pakistan on Kashmir issue, Gilani said people would hear good news on Kashmir soon.



Nice joke!!! Gilani cannot give the Pakistani people a single piece of good news, he is nuts if he thinks his politically charged rubbish about Kashmir holds any credibility.

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## blain2

A few facts. No woman in Pakistan has ever been stoned for being raped or for having *** outside of marriage.

No woman in Pakistan has been put to death for the above offenses. After the civil ruling, the cases go to the federal shariat court which looks at the issue. Over 90&#37; of cases lodged with the court were thrown out for lack of evidence (mostly due to shoddy police work). The remaining are doing jail time. 

There is far more here than to blame the Quran or the Islamic law for this. Pakistan's problem is not the Islamic law, its the lack of procedures and follow up on the part of LEAs. The courts, in light of this shoddy work, take the Islamic ruling which calls for leniency or letting off in light of missing facts and evidence.


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## DesiGuy

how could people of pakistan believe this guy????


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## silent hill

DesiGuy said:


> how could people of pakistan believe this guy????



its none of your business...


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## DesiGuy

silent hill said:


> its none of your business...





Yea....How so????


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## toppys

somebozo said:


> Keep an eye on SPAPEV activity. A permenant body established by Saudi Arabia to develop AJK region.
> 
> Also AJK residents have been awarded prefencial labour visas to uplift themselves from poverty.



atleast saudi is doing what india and pakistan should do.....


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## nForce

blain2 said:


> A few facts. *No woman in Pakistan has ever been stoned for being raped or for having *** outside of marriage.*
> 
> *No woman in Pakistan has been put to death for the above offenses.* After the civil ruling, the cases go to the federal shariat court which looks at the issue. Over 90% of cases lodged with the court were thrown out for lack of evidence (mostly due to shoddy police work). The remaining are doing jail time.
> 
> There is far more here than to blame the Quran or the Islamic law for this. Pakistan's problem is not the Islamic law, its the lack of procedures and follow up on the part of LEAs. The courts, in light of this shoddy work, take the Islamic ruling which calls for leniency or letting off in light of missing facts and evidence.



Maynot be all true...



> *Sentences of Stoning to Death passed in Pakistan​*'ISLAMABAD: The first sentence of stoning to death and flogging under Hudood Ordinance was passed in 1981 in the Fehmida-Allah Bukhsh case. The case in which the couple failed to register their marriage within the prescribed period was finally dismissed after Ansar Burney met with the President and much public uproar.
> 
> In 1983, in a **** case, an unfortunate blind girl Safia Bibi was convicted 'Stoning to Death' on adultery, while the alleged rapists were acquitted for want of evidence. Safia Bibi was also eventually acquitted after much personal pain and public humiliation. Again credit goes to renowned human rights activist and Chairman 'Ansar Burney Welfare Trust International' Ansar Burney, Advocate who once again met the President and informed him the injustices and sought President's intervention in the matter to save the precious life of an innocent blind girl.
> 
> In January, 1988, the sentence of stoning to death was passed in Mst Shahida Parveen case. The case in which the couple failed to register their marriage within the prescribed period was finally dismissed after renowned human rights activist Ansar Burney made appeals with the Prime Minister and Governor of Sindh.
> 
> The (EX) Prime Minister, Mohammad Khan Junejo and The (Ex) Governor of Sindh, Mr Justice (Retd) Fakhruddin G. Ebrahim stayed the execution on the Appeals made by the Ansar Burney Welfare Trust International.
> 
> Lal Mai was not so fortunate. In 1983 she was publicly flogged for adultery, before a crowd of 5000 spectators.
> 
> In this year 2002 'Stoning to Death' sentence was passed by the Additional District and Session Judge, Kohat to a lady Zafran Bi Bi (28) and appeal of 'Ansar Burney Welfare Trust International' is pending before the Federal Shariat Court for justice.





> *
> Zafran Bibi was raped, but a Pakistan judge decided it was adultery - now this young mother will be stoned to death​*
> 
> Zafran Bibi walked into the police station in the village of Kerri Sheikhan, deep in the valleys of Pakistan's North West Frontier, and gave a harrowing account of how she had been raped by a neighbour.
> 
> Medical tests were ordered, witnesses questioned and a trial was held. Defence lawyers were called in. But Pakistan's archaic legal system, a mix of secular and Islamic codes, offers little protection for women.
> 
> Bibi, 28, was convicted of adultery under Islamic laws which many regard as deeply prejudicial. Last month, a year after she reported the ****, a judge sentenced her to death by stoning.
> 
> For several weeks the young mother has lived in solitary confinement in a death cell behind the redbrick walls of Kohat jail nursing her seven-month old daughter. An appeal will be heard before an Islamic court in Islamabad later this month.
> 
> Her case has exposed the empty promises of Pakistan's military regime, which has committed itself to improving women's rights and countering religious extremism. General Pervez Musharraf, the military ruler, knew nothing about the case until he was questioned by foreign journalists last week. 'Is that the law?' he asked. 'Now? I don't even know.'
> 
> He was asked if he planned to reform the adultery laws, introduced in 1979 in a wave of Islamisation led by the last military dictator, Zia-ul Haq. 'Frankly, I haven't given it such deep thought, let me admit,' said Musharraf.
> 
> The urbane general, sitting in his lavish office in Islamabad, insisted Bibi would not be executed. But hundreds more women who have reported rapes are held in jail under the same adultery law.
> 
> It appears Bibi was used by relatives caught up in a family feud, and her husband claims she suffered from poor legal advice. Her account of what happened has never been heard. In remote villages such as Kerri Sheikhan, the word of a young, uneducated mother counts for little.
> 
> On the morning of 26 March last year Bibi went to the village police station with her father-in-law, Zabita Khan, and said she had been raped while cutting grass outside the village. She named Akmal Khan, a villager involved in a long-running dispute with her family, as her attacker. At the time, her husband was in jail for murder.
> 
> Bibi was examined by a doctor and found to be seven to eight weeks pregnant, a fact that appears to have convinced the judge she was guilty of adultery. She later insisted that the baby was conceived during a conjugal visit to her husband in jail.
> 
> Last October the trial opened and Bibi appeared in court in Kohat wearing a faded yellow burqa, the all-enveloping cloak the Taliban forced women to wear in Afghanistan. She recorded a statement repeating the claim of **** and again naming Akmal Khan. But at the next hearing she said her father-in-law had pressured her into making the accusation. In a new statement, she named her brother-in-law Jamal, 15, as the rapist.
> 
> The judge acquitted Akmal Khan, the man first accused. But no investigation was ordered into the new accusation and Jamal was never arrested. The judge ruled the medical evidence showed no signs of force and her pregnancy was evidence of adultery. 'Resultantly, I hereby convict and sentence the accused Zafran Bibi to stoning to death and that she be stoned to death at a public place,' Judge Anwar Ali Khan wrote in his final judgment.
> 
> Her lawyers were stunned. In the court at Kohat last week they were still arguing over the case. 'She has never confessed her guilt. There is no case against her,' said Sardar Ali, one of her original defence lawyers. 'I think it was mishandled by a relative of this lady. She never stated she committed adultery.'
> 
> Under the Offence of Zina Ordinance, which covers both **** and adultery under the Islamic code, a conviction requires either a confession from the accused or evidence from four witnesses to the crime who are Muslim men who 'abstain from major sins'. Frequently, when **** is not proven, women are charged with adultery. As a result, most rapes are never reported, even though the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan estimates that every two hours a woman in the country is raped.
> 
> In Bibi's case, the judge ruled the fact that she changed her statement to name a new attacker was a confession of adultery.
> 
> 'She made herself guilty in that statement when she clearly admits she had committed zina [adultery] with her brother-in-law,' said Kurshid Anwar, a prosecutor in the case. 'There was no mark of violence on her body. It was the right decision as long as the law exists.' Later Anwar admitted he favoured 'modernisation' of the law. 'Women suffer more because of our customs,' he said.
> 
> Outside Kohat jail last week Bibi's husband, Naimat Khan, and his two sons, Israr, nine, and Rehman, six, tried to arrange a visit to his wife. His children were allowed in, but he was not. Several minutes later, her sons returned with beaming smiles, clutch ing a small purple fan their mother had made them.
> 
> 'The defence lawyers told us this would be an easy case. Then they told my wife if she didn't change her statement she would be tied to a pole and soldiers would throw stones at her,' said Naimat Khan, 40, a poor farmer who makes less than £400 a year from his fields. In an affidavit written for the appeal hearing, Bibi again pleaded her innocence. 'I have not committed zina with anybody,' she said. 'I have not confessed any guilt.'
> 
> While Bibi's conviction may be overturned on appeal later this month, it is clear the military regime, despite its promise to eradicate fundamentalism, is unwilling to reform the Islamic laws for fear of angering the religious Right.
> 
> 'She is not the first case and she is not going to be the last,' said Afrasiab Khattak, chairman of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan. 'If General Musharraf really wants to do away with extremism, then there is no alternative to doing away with the structures created by Zia, which include the so-called Islamic laws.
> 
> 'Even if Zafran Bibi returns to her village now, the stigma is so severe that it will be a very harsh life for her and her children.'

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## HAIDER

Agree with Agno..its Gilani public opinion diversion tactic ..sham PPP getting pressure to dissolve govt for its nil achievement from last many years...


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## JonAsad

Now India got the UNSC seat, and Pakistan voted in favor of India..

SO are the two news related?
Obama's pitch: Fix Kashmir for UN Security Council seat


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## Kinetic

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *
> &#8216;We would never step back from our principles&#8217;*



Thats good for India.  

But the reality is this will not bring an inch of Kashmir to Pakistan other than hostility with India. LoC is settled. There are some who want to be with Pakistan but there are many who want to be with India as well. Its proved in elections. 



> Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani today said the international community had accepted Pakistan's stand on the Kashmir issue and people would soon hear "good news" in this regard.



International community means some members of OIC? lol All of them together can't change the thing other than some talks. None of them even raised the Kashmir when ever there was a bilateral meeting with India.


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## Zeluvaa

JonAsad said:


> Now India got the UNSC seat, and Pakistan voted in favor of India..
> 
> SO are the two news related?
> Obama's pitch: Fix Kashmir for UN Security Council seat



The above link speaks of UNSC permanent seat. The one India got, which Pakistan voted for, is not a permanent one and thus irrelevant.


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## notsuperstitious

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Dont drink and post buddy....... its hazardous....



I presume you don't drink. The quality of your sober posts is a matter of worry then.

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## sasuke

If there were any mass graves, I think world media would have made a big fuss out of it. Can someone post a credible link which give evidence to the mass graves. 

There's a difference being uneducated and being dumb. I see a pattern here!


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## Coltsfan

http://www.MarkTheTruth.com 

The source on the pic in article says "Unknown"

hallmark of a "reliable" source

Anyhow, Geelani is free to ask for whatever he wants.

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## notsuperstitious

sasuke said:


> If there were any mass graves, I think world media would have made a big fuss out of it. Can someone post a credible link which give evidence to the mass graves.
> 
> There's a difference being uneducated and being dumb. I see a pattern here!



Yes there are unnamed graves.

Now there are 9 somewhere in Maharashtra too - the heroes from mumbai attacks. They got what they came for, now its time for the maatam drama.


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## silent hill

Kinetic said:


> Thats good for India.
> 
> But the reality is this will not bring an inch of Kashmir to Pakistan other than hostility with India. LoC is settled. There are some who want to be with Pakistan *but there are many who want to be with India as well. Its proved in elections.
> *
> 
> 
> International community means some members of OIC? lol All of them together can't change the thing other than some talks. None of them even raised the Kashmir when ever there was a bilateral meeting with India.



and how many are they who want to be with india??, if thy are many then how come indian forces comes out with cerfew every damn day and brings automatic guns from israel to handle the area??


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## silent hill

Zeluvaa said:


> The above link speaks of UNSC permanent seat. The one India got, which Pakistan voted for, is not a permanent one and thus irrelevant.



the lack of interest for these indians to hold fair referendum is because they fear, the majority would want the freedom!!.


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## Kinetic

silent hill said:


> and how many are they who want to be with india??, if thy are many then how come indian forces comes out with cerfew every damn day and brings automatic guns from israel to handle the area??



That is common sense. Carfew and automatic guns are not new among countries through out the world.


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## SBD-3

JonAsad said:


> Now India got the UNSC seat, and Pakistan voted in favor of India..
> 
> SO are the two news related?
> Obama's pitch: Fix Kashmir for UN Security Council seat



well its normal, except for 5 permanent members, the rest of 10 non permanent members are remotely selected for UNSC for 2 years. India may become UNSC member on its turn.


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## Spring Onion

nForce said:


> *
> SPAPEV=Saudi Public Assistance for Pakistan Earthquake Vicitms*
> 
> It is basically a relief organization,not a development oriented organization.There is a big difference.
> Also,I still didnt get the source supporting your claim.



nevermind he might come up with his Arab phobia nothing else


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## Spring Onion

The Only Good News on Kashmir would be that India has agreed to hold plebiscite in Kashmir under International bodies.

Which is not likely in near future so Gilani is making hollow claims 

I think he can announce end to ceasefire at LoC atleast kuch tau PPP ki iazat reh jay gee


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## Jade

Zeluvaa said:


> The above link speaks of UNSC permanent seat. The one India got, which Pakistan voted for, is not a permanent one and thus irrelevant.



In no circumstances will India would ever trade an UNSC permanent membership with Kashmir...ever...How can anybody even think of trading national integrity with something such as a some membership


----------



## S_O_C_O_M

*OSJK: Geelani Urged the world to stop India from using force ​*
TopNews 
Written by KMS 
Sunday, 17 October 2010 18:20 







Srinagar, October 17, 2010: All Parties Hurriyat Conference Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, has appealed to the international community to stop India from using brute tactics to suppress Kashmiris indigenous struggle for the right of self-determination.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who continues to remain under house arrest, in a media interview in Srinagar maintained that despite Indian state terrorism, the Kashmiri people are determined to continue the "Quit Kashmir Movement" till its logical end. He urged India to give up its intransigence and come forward to resolve the Kashmir dispute in accordance with the Kashmiris aspirations.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani, at an extraordinary session of Majlis-e-Shura of APHC, which was held in Srinagar, was unanimously re-elected as Chairman of APHC for the third consecutive three-year term.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani, has strongly denounced the continued illegal detention of the High Court Bar Association President, Mian Abdul Qayoom. Syed Ali Shah Geelani was speaking in extraordinary session of Majlis-e-Shura of APHC, which was held in Srinagar, said that political interference in judicial affairs had made the matters worse in the occupied territory. He appreciated the role of lawyers in the ongoing "Quit Kashmir Movement".

He urged the Kashmiri people to remain steadfast in the quest for their inalienable right of Self-Determination. People must endeavour to strengthen the movement, he said. Expressing serious concern over the reports that the troopers of 18-RR were not allowing women to wear veil at Lolab, Syed Ali Shah Geelani said, This is a direct attack on our honour and dignity. We will not tolerate it.

During the session, Syed Ali Shah Geelani was unanimously re-elected as Chairman of APHC for third consecutive time for a three-year-term through a secret ballot. The members of Majlis-e-Shura had moved a resolution to elect the him for lifetime but he rejected the proposal, saying that it was against the institution of democracy.

The district administration Kupwara has booked five more civilians, including two government employees and a retired Naib Tehsildar, under draconian law, Public Safety Act for raising voice against the continued human rights violations by Indian troops in the territory.

The Jamaat-e-Islami of occupied Kashmir, in a statement in Srinagar, demanded immediate release of all illegally detained Kashmiri Hurriyat leaders and activists including Shabbir Ahmed Shah, Mian Abdul Qayoom, Nayeem Ahmed Khan, Aasiya Andrabi, Muhammad Ashraf Sehrai, Ghulam Nabi Sumjhi and Zafar Akbar Butt.

The occupation authorities continued to impose restrictions in Palhalan and Delina areas. The puppet administration booked ine more civilians under draconian law, Public Safety Act in Palhalan and Kupwara lodging them at different jails.

Peer Ghulam Mohi-ud-Din, 65, Bashir Ahmad Wani, Abdul Ahad Malik, Faruk Ahmad Mir and Abdul Hameed all residents of Reshigund Kralpora were arrested and booked under the Act in Kupwara. Of the arrested civilians, three have been detained in sub-jail Kupwara while two have been lodged at Kot Bhalwal jail, Jammu.

Meanwhile, the personnel of Indian Armys 29 Rashtriya Rifles have arrested three youth identified as Abdul Hameed Hajam, Hilal Ahmad Rather and Showkat Mir from Palhalan in Pattan.

With the continued siege around Palhalan, the humanitarian crisis in the area is worsening day by day. The siege started more than a month ago when eight people were killed by firing of Indian army personnel on peaceful protesters.

A resident, Ghulam Mohammad Tantray told media men that people had been at the receiving end for over a month now. Our children were killed, houses damaged, shops ransacked and electricity snapped. We are being punished for raising voice against oppression, he said.

Tantrays son, Ansar-ullah, 24, a final year M A English student of Kashmir University, was among the martyred. Adil Ramzan Sheikh, Mudasir Ahmad, Feroz Ahmad Malik, Noor-ud-din Tantray, Muhammad Ramzan Mir, Muhammad Ashraf Mir and Ali Muhammad Waza were the other victims.

We have been held hostages. We cant go to markets to buy essentials. In case of emergency, we have to rush patients to Sumbal hospital, even as Sub-district hospital is at a walking distance, he said, adding that it seemed that the occupation authorities wanted to starve the people to death.

Hurriyat leader and the Vice Chairman of Jammu and Kashmir Muslim League, Masarrat Alam Butt, has flayed Indian forces for subjecting the innocent Kashmiris to brute force. Masarrat Alam Butt in a statement issued in Srinagar appreciated the role of Kashmiri youth in the ongoing liberation struggle against Indian occupation of Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK).

The ongoing "Quit Kashmir Movement" has entered into a crucial phase and the people should continue the struggle till its logical conclusion, he added. He hailed Syed Ali Shah Geelani, for his unflinching commitment to the ongoing liberation movement.

Gilani is spearheading the movement with steadfastness and integrity. He is calling spade a spade besides urging the occupation forces to leave the territory, Masarrat maintained.

The Hurriyat leader said that the people of Kashmir had rendered matchless sacrifices for the freedom struggle. He said that the occupation troops were perpetrating gross human rights abuses in the occupied territory.

while puppet administration has been talking about demilitarization of public buildings in the Valley, Indian troops have occupied an under-construction health centre in Sopore.

Residents of the area told media men that the Primary Health Centre Tarzoo had been under construction for the last five years. Few days back, the troops conducted formal survey of the building and its adjoining areas before occupying it. The troops are stationed in the main building and have occupied almost 70 percent of it erecting bunkers and barricades, they said.

The locals said that the place was selected for the PHC and thousands of trees were cut down in the hope of securing proper health care facilities for the local population. They complained of facing difficulties in reaching Sub District Hospital Sopore for treatment. So the occupation of the PHC is a serious problem for the patients here, they added.

OSJK: Geelani Urged the world to stop India from using force


----------



## Guli Danda

Yeh Buddha Kab marey gaa!!?


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## Hulk

Farak nahi padta kutte bhookte rehete hain.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*From Jan. 1989 to September 30, 2010​*
*Total Killings:* * 93,471​*Custodial Killings:* 6,975​*Civilians Arrested:* 118,424​*Structures Arsoned/Destroyed:* 105,877​*Women Widowed:* 22,742​*Children Orphaned*: 107,382​*Women gang-raped / Molested:* 9,962​

*September 2010​*
*Total Killings:* * 92​*Men:* 80​*Women:* 3​*Children:* 9​*Custodial Killings:* 1​*Tortured/Critically Injured:* 1116​*Civilians Arrested:* 364​*Structures Arsoned/Destroyed:* 11​*Disappeared:* 0​*Women Widowed:* 8​*Children Orphaned:* 16​*Women gang-raped / Molested:*16​
* Including custody​



World urged to stop India from using force against Kashmiris | Kashmir Media Service


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## karan.1970

So average deaths in last 21 years has been 370 per month. Compared to that, we have a figure of 92 in Sept 2010. Things seem to be getting better it seems. eh?

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## Iggy

karan.1970 said:


> So average deaths in last 21 years has been 370 per month. Compared to that, we have a figure of 92 in Sept 2010. Things seem to be getting better it seems. eh?



Dont push him to edit his post

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## Gabbar

Hmmmm.......stats from Pakistani based website on Kashmir issue.

How can they be biased and they must be facts?


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## Hulk

Goes to tell death started after Pakistan sent militants from 1989. Proves the point that peace was there before militancy.

Cause of deaths militancy.


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## PakiiZeeshan

Kashmiris should and will, keep fighting for their freedom! They should never forget the women, children, men who have been killed the the Indian terrorists.

And they should always keep the honour of our brave Mujahids!!!!



-Pakistan and Kashmir Zindabad

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## k_n

@ Adeos Amigos

Whatever you may term my Post as , It wsnt offtopic though


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## All-Green

Karthic Sri said:


> Ever wondered how it became 95% majority..? Nearly a million Hindu pandits were terrorised into leaving their native lands by these same separatists and now giving into their demands only validates that ethinic cleansing done in the early 90s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a democratic country they have every right to protest for whatever reason they see fit.
> But that doesnt mean the state has to fulfil every one of their demands.
> The MahaRaja signed the accession of Kashmir in 1947 and that is there to stay.
> 
> *This struggle based on a flawed notion of religious intolerance and the supposed supremacy of one religion over other cannot be entertained in a secular democracy.*
> 
> *PS: *the bolded apart caught my eye.If by any chance you are mentioning the supposed raping of two girls in Shopian,then sorry it has been proved that they were not raped and they died by drowning in the nullah.
> The governement doctor under pressure from the local separatist leaders fudged his report and that has been proved.
> 
> So all the killing of unarmed civilians,raping etc are by and large only of propaganda value fed to keep the hate against India alive.




First of all kindly get your facts straight regarding the Kashmir Valley, there has always been more than 90% Muslim Majority in the Kashmir Valley since long before the creation of modern day India and Pakistan.
In the 1901 census it was more than 95% Muslim majority in Kashmir valley.
The Kashmir valley actually had much more population of Muslims than any other area since this was heavily populated as opposed to other areas further North.

Now you do not accept this fact but try to paint a picture of ethnic cleansing, that is not only wrong but a deliberate attempt to distort facts and remain in denial mode.
There has never been a case of Muslim minority becoming a majority due to ethnic cleansing in Kashmir Valley.

By denying Kashmiris the right to determine their own fate, it seems that religious intolerance indeed came into play. The Maharaja was not a Muslim so he did not honor the wishes of the Muslims.
The secular democracy promised these people that their wishes would be honored and now we stand here today when there is civil unrest, so i do not think the Kashmiri Muslims in the valley feel that their wishes have been honored.

Clearly something is wrong here for Kashmiris to still be upset and if there is debate raised about the majority of Muslims in Kashmir Valley as being a farce then it only proves that there is a deliberate attempt to reject the validity of the demands of local population of Kashmir Valley.

What of the Maharajah who cared not about what the population in Kashmir Valley felt?
The heads of the states of Hyderabad and Junagadh decided to join with Pakistan but the matter was taken out of their hands by virtue of the majority population being non Muslim, clearly India did not adhere to any one principle here so at the end of the day we have to see whether the population of the subject area is happy or feels agitated.

Regarding the r ape case, you are ignoring huge criticism not from the local population but many Indians including leading doctors.
You are so confident to disprove it as just a lie by the separatists who are raping and killing their own to discredit Indian State...this kind of attitude is what shall turn the Kashmiris away from India.

The judicial inquiry into the matter proved that there was brutal violence and r ape and there was the matter of police cover ups and the police/paramilitary pickets around the area.
The torture marks did not occur due to drowning and the autopsy did confirm the r ape and murder.
There is severe criticism of the later U Turn taken in this case to disprove the r ape thus acquitting those responsible and closing the case as natural deaths due to drowning.
That too by doing tissue testing after 3 months!
The criticism comes from all circles including leading doctors in India as well who question the credibility of doing tissue testing after three months of death!
To disprove a r ape like this is incredible and has only resulted in more unrest.

This is not a one off incident and it clearly shows what the problem is, a breach of trust which only becomes wider day by day.
The reason for this is mutual dislike of Kashmiris and the state forces which have been deployed there.
There is hate against Kashmiri Muslims because what they want is not something in line with the Indian interest, so much so that even the Muslim majority of Kashmir Valley is now seen as something which resulted from ethnic cleansing!

Slowly this dislike has resulted in more and more violence because the Kashmiri Muslim sentiments are seen as anti state...a very dangerous thing because this means there is a huge gray area for abuse of power to happen and ample cover ups.
I say this because the motto of serve and protect will not apply here when the Kashmiri Muslims are seen as traitors and we all know that if there is deviation from this motto, then there is no end to abuse of power which has indeed been taking place.

Anyways, India can continue in this manner only if it has already established that Local Kashmiri Muslims are not to be won over by peaceful means and deserve what they are getting.
Calling them insurgents or separatists would not change the fact that it is a civil unrest and there is a history of sweeping things under the carpet, otherwise situation would not have become so critical and the supreme democratic values would have won over the population which is supposedly being brutalized by the insurgents and being rescued by the Indian State...this is certainly not reflected by the emotions which are prevalent in the streets of the Kashmir valley.

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## KS

All-Green said:


> First of all kindly get your facts straight regarding the Kashmir Valley, there has always been more than 90&#37; Muslim Majority in the Kashmir Valley since long before the creation of modern day India and Pakistan.
> In the 1901 census it was more than 95% Muslim majority in Kashmir valley.
> The Kashmir valley actually had much more population of Muslims than any other area since this was heavily populated as opposed to other areas further North.
> 
> Now you do not accept this fact but try to paint a picture of ethnic cleansing, that is not only wrong but a deliberate attempt to distort facts and remain in denial mode.
> There has never been a case of Muslim minority becoming a majority due to ethnic cleansing in Kashmir Valley.
> 
> By denying Kashmiris the right to determine their own fate, it seems that religious intolerance indeed came into play. The Maharaja was not a Muslim so he did not honor the wishes of the Muslims.
> The secular democracy promised these people that their wishes would be honored and now we stand here today when there is civil unrest, so i do not think the Kashmiri Muslims in the valley feel that their wishes have been honored.
> 
> Clearly something is wrong here for Kashmiris to still be upset and if there is debate raised about the majority of Muslims in Kashmir Valley as being a farce then it only proves that there deliberate attempt to reject the validity of the demands of local population of Kashmir Valley.
> 
> What of the Maharajah who cared not about what the population in Kashmir Valley felt?
> The heads of the states of Hyderabad and Junagadh decided to join with Pakistan but the matter was taken out of their hands by virtue of the majority population being non Muslim, clearly India did not adhere to any one principle here so at the end of the day we have to see whether the population of the subject area is happy or feels agitated.
> 
> Regarding the r ape case, you are ignoring huge criticism not from the local population but many Indians including leading doctors.
> You are so confident to disprove it as just a lie by the separatists who are raping and killing their own to discredit Indian State...this kind of attitude is what shall turn the Kashmiris away from India.
> 
> The judicial inquiry into the matter proved that there was brutal violence and r ape and there was the matter of police cover ups and the police/paramilitary pickets around the area.
> The torture marks did not occur due to drowning and the autopsy did confirm the r ape and murder.
> There is severe criticism of the later U Turn taken in this case to disprove the r ape thus acquitting those responsible and closing the case as natural deaths due to drowning.
> That too by doing tissue testing after 3 months!
> The criticism comes from all circles including leading doctors in India as well who question the credibility of doing tissue testing after three months of death!
> To disprove a r ape like this is incredible and has only resulted in more unrest.
> 
> This is not a one off incident and it clearly shows what the problem is, a breach of trust which only becomes wider day by day.
> The reason for this is mutual dislike of Kashmiris and the state forces which have been deployed there.
> There is hate against Kashmiri Muslims because what they want is not something in line with the Indian interest, so much so that even the Muslim majority of Kashmir Valley is now seen as something which resulted from ethnic cleansing!
> 
> Slowly this dislike has resulted in more and more violence because the Kashmiri Muslim sentiments are seen as anti state...a very dangerous thing because this means there is a huge gray area for abuse of power to happen and ample cover ups.
> I say this because the motto of serve and protect will not apply here when the Kashmiri Muslims are seen as traitors and we all know that if there is deviation from this motto, then there is no end to abuse of power which has indeed been taking place.
> 
> Anyways, India can continue in this manner only if it has already established that Local Kashmiri Muslims are not to be won over by peaceful means and deserve what they are getting.
> Calling them insurgents or separatists would not change the fact that it is a civil unrest and there is a history of sweeping things under the carpet, otherwise situation would not have become so critical and the supreme democratic values would have won over the population which is supposedly being brutalized by the insurgents and being rescued by the Indian State...this is certainly not reflected by the emotions which are prevalent in the streets of the Kashmir valley.



Hi,

First things first (the main theme) - Regarding genocide of the Hindus in Kashmir:

K P S Gill: The Kashmiri Pandits: An Ethnic Cleansing the World Forgot

WHITE PAPER ON KASHMIR -------Chapter 4 Genocide of Hindus-----ETHNIC CLEANSING

Aronite thinking- Ethnic Cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits

Take your time,read through these and get back to me whether this can or cannot be called "Ethinic cleansing/Genocide".

For further reading google "Ethinic cleansing in Kashmir" and you ll get dozens and dozens of poignant accounts.

*After all these do you expect any Indian to support these fundamentalists,who now cry of excesses, after all they have done*?

*The Kashmiri Muslims themselves chose the path of the gun way back in the 90s and did all kinds of intimidation on the minorities..Now what moral right do they have to protest when they are paid back in the same coin*

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding Indian "invasion" of Junagadh,how many times it has been clarified that it was the father of ZAB who himself called in the Indian forces because Pakistan was "unable" to quell the unrest,before he fleed to Pakistan himself.

In today's world Might is right.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Thirdly regarding Extra judicial killings - of course when there is a counter insurgency going on against a "cross-border" patronised insurgency there will be collateral damage.

Tell me one insurgency in the world which did not suffer any collateral damage and all the casualties were strictly either the Sec. forces or the insurgents.

But the good thing is with insurgency at an alltime low accountability of the Sec forces is more and more implemented and soon it will be free of all this accusations.

And again for your argument that many doctors in India itself said it was **** - there are enough ppl in both our country who will do anything it takes to hog the lime-light,even if it goers against the ethics of their profession.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lastly on the right to self-determination,the Kashmiris are not some god's chosen ppl who will get all they demand.Believe me if all the people of this world were to get a chance at this "Right to self-determination",you and me have to study Geography once more to re-learn the maps of the world.

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## Irfan Baloch

riju78 said:


> CORRECTION 21 years since 1989!!!!!!!!!!!



no 
you need to be corrected 63 years since partition thats since when this stuggle started and last time picked up pace in 1989. it was there before and thats how locals of Kotli, Mirpur, Rawalakot Sakurdu & Baltistan liberated Kashmir.
1989 is the rise of the Kashmir Valley mainly Sirinager.


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## Irfan Baloch

Karthic Sri said:


> With respect to your thinkings the reality is in stark contrast to what you have tried to potray.
> 
> See I am tired of explaining this again and again.
> 
> So I will just say shortly in one sentence - *"Another Partition bassed on religion is not happening in India"* .Period.
> 
> The sooner my neighbours and the Valley Muslims realise it,the better for all.



remeber the catch phrase "right of self determination, right of freedom" thats what the United Nations was based on
thats what the Modren democracies are based on.

the will of the People cant be stopped by the force of the guns alone. sooner or later the oppresser has to give in.

its not jsut the religion alone. its the geography, custom and the language as well. the Kashmiris dont find much common to keep that sham relation with India.


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## Irfan Baloch

brahmastra said:


> ^^ Why you give funny source like greaterkashmir.
> Case Dismissed.



ever heard of the phrase "a picture speaks thousand words" ?
did you shy away from the shameful & barbaric crackdown of Indian forces on the Kashmiri people?

I do agree with your comment though .. the case is Dismissed for Indian claim over Kashmir

Kashmir shall be free from Indian occupation in our lifetime

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## Irfan Baloch

Coltsfan said:


> Anyhow, Geelani is free to ask for whatever he wants.



hey thanks for being so generous. surely it has something to do with being a citizen of biggest democracy.


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## Irfan Baloch

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Kashmir is a whole other picture. We are seeing the grim realities everyday, despite media blackouts, censorship and intimidation tactics by the occupational forces (sissies)




the scale and continuity of the atrocities right from the time of partition is so huge & the human tragedy in the modern time so heart rending that the world is finding it hard to ignore it.
India is making all efforts in terms of brutal suppression and an aggressive propaganda at the international world things might seem to be holding for now but Indian policy makers are aware that the end game is near and Kashmir is slipping from their illegal occupation. Every Indian government just wishes that it doesnt have to bear the mark of being the movement when Kashmir became independent of its occupation.

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## nForce

Irfan Baloch said:


> hey thanks for being so generous. surely it has something to do with being a citizen of biggest democracy.



generosity was not towards you.What are you thanking for???

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## KALKI

Irfan Baloch said:


> hey thanks for being so generous. surely it has something to do with being a citizen of biggest democracy.



Of course...a citizen can ask for the moon if he/she wants. Only it depends on the country whether it obliges or not.

---------- Post added at 07:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:17 PM ----------




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> I feel sorry for u bharti.....



His name is Fateh71, not Bharti.

And if by any chance you meant 'Indian'....then we are all proud to be Indians.

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## KS

Irfan Baloch said:


> remeber the catch phrase "right of self determination, right of freedom" thats what the United Nations was based on
> thats what the Modren democracies are based on.



Ahem ahem....there is also another,more important catch phrase - "territorial integrity" .Thats what sucessful nation states are based upon.

And please dont bring in the impotent UN in this.It didnt have the power to stop the Iraq war where a nation defied the world and went to war.

That moment UN lost its credibility as an impartial international watchdog.



Irfan Baloch said:


> the will of the People cant be stopped by the force of the guns alone. sooner or later the oppresser has to give in.



It has not suceeded in China,Ireland,Spain.Perhaps we would like to emulate them.



Irfan Baloch said:


> its not jsut the religion alone. its the geography, custom and the language as well. the Kashmiris dont find much common to keep that sham relation with India.



Its absolutely religion alone.If not why did the Ladakhis,Jammuites,the Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs are not having any problems with India and proudly identify India as their motherland.?

Or according to you,Kashmiri Pandits,Sikhs,Dogras etc are not "sufficient" Kashmiris?


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## karan.1970

'Valley's most wanted separatist leader' arrested - Rediff.com India News

In a major success, Jammu and Kashmir [ Images ] police on Monday evening arrested Masarat Alam Bhat, the most wanted separatist leader and a close aide of hard-line Syed Ali Shah Geelani [ Images ], from the outskirts of Srinagar [ Images ]. 

A senior police officer said Masarat Alam Bhat was arrested by a police party from a house in Wangund area of Srinagar during a raid.

"We have got him," the officer said. Bhat has now been shifted to an undisclosed location for questioning.

Masarat Alam Bhat, a close aide of Geelani, was the most wanted separatist leader who was eluding the security forces for over past four months.

He was released earlier in June in Srinagar after remaining under detention for two long years under the Public Safety Act.

During Geelani's detention, Bhat along with Dukhtarani Milat, chief of Asiya Andrabi, launched the 'Quit Kashmir campaign' in June when large scale protests and violence erupted in the wake of the killing of a 17-year old student Tufail Ahmad Mattoo after being hit by a teargas shell in Srinagar.

Masarat had two day's back released a CD wherein he had hailed Geelani for 'his steadfastness and integrity' urging 'people to continue to render support to him.'

Security forces have been conducting raids to nab Masarat Alam Bhat, general secretary of the Geelani led All Parties Hurriyat Conference group. 

Bhat shot into prominence for his 'hawkish image' and his close association with Geelani.

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## KS

Why did they disclose it ?


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## Spring Onion

Karthic Sri said:


> Why did they disclose it ?



As kashmir does not belong to Indians so you Indians indeed do not know the ground realities so here i should tell you.


Masarat Alam Bhat had been arrested on and off since many decades and he has spent his entire life up till now almost in jail. They arrest him and then free him then arrest him.

lolz he is not most wanted rather Indians are paranoid with him. i will start posting stories about him and you will know.

This was not some big achievement by Indians but rather continuation of Indian barbarism against Masarat Alam Bhat.


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## karan.1970

Karthic Sri said:


> Why did they disclose it ?





For us to fight over it on Defence.pk

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## Guli Danda

He should be hanged!

The only way to solve this problem is





So that other idiotic separatists get a lesson from it.

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## Hulk

I am waiting to know, how this arrest has any impact on J&K.


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## karan.1970

Kashmir mosque siege on as militant refuses to give up - The Times of India

SRINAGAR: The standoff between an injured guerrilla hiding in a mosque in Kashmir's Bandipora district and the security forces continued Monday evening as a village cleric and elders failed to persuade the militant to surrender. 

"The injured militant lobbed a grenade at the surrounding security men *who did not retaliate in deference to the mosque inside which the militant is hiding*," a senior police officer said here. 

The injured militant took shelter in the mosque in Dabban village after a gun battle early Monday morning when a group of militants moving around in the forest area near Dabban village was surrounded by personnel of the counter-insurgency force, the Rahstriya Rifles and state police. 


The militants were challenged to surrender but instead opened fire on the security forces. 

"One terrorist was killed and another injured in a gunfight with the security forces in forest foothill village of Dabban in Bandipora district early today (Monday). The injured terrorist entered the mosque in the village," Army's 15 Corps spokesman Lt. Col. J.S. Brar said. 

"The local imam and village elders had tried earlier to persuade the holed up guerrilla to surrender, but failed," Brar added. 

Senior police and army officers have rushed to the spot to ensure that the *situation is defused without causing any damage to the mosque*. 

Security forces, meanwhile, tightened the cordon around the mosque and put up flashlights to ensure the guerrilla does not escape in the cover of darkness.


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## karan.1970

Kashmir mosque siege on as militant refuses to give up - The Times of India

SRINAGAR: The standoff between an injured guerrilla hiding in a mosque in Kashmir's Bandipora district and the security forces continued Monday evening as a village cleric and elders failed to persuade the militant to surrender. 

"The injured militant lobbed a grenade at the surrounding security men *who did not retaliate in deference to the mosque inside which the militant is hiding*," a senior police officer said here. 

The injured militant took shelter in the mosque in Dabban village after a gun battle early Monday morning when a group of militants moving around in the forest area near Dabban village was surrounded by personnel of the counter-insurgency force, the Rahstriya Rifles and state police. 


The militants were challenged to surrender but instead opened fire on the security forces. 

"One terrorist was killed and another injured in a gunfight with the security forces in forest foothill village of Dabban in Bandipora district early today (Monday). The injured terrorist entered the mosque in the village," Army's 15 Corps spokesman Lt. Col. J.S. Brar said. 

"The local imam and village elders had tried earlier to persuade the holed up guerrilla to surrender, but failed," Brar added. 

Senior police and army officers have rushed to the spot to ensure that the *situation is defused without causing any damage to the mosque*. 

Security forces, meanwhile, tightened the cordon around the mosque and put up flashlights to ensure the guerrilla does not escape in the cover of darkness.

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## Awesome

It's one guy... injured. We don't even know his back story don't pin medals on yourselves. If he is a freedom fighter, the noble thing would be to let him kill the soldiers or leave Kashmir.

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## Guli Danda

The Army didn't attack the mosque and prevented it from being damaged...thats the definition of the Terrorist Indian Army.

The Muslim Freedom Fighters are using mosque as a center to unleash attacks.That's the degree of respect they hold for their religion.

Let us leave it on the Pakistanis to conclude..

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## arihant

Asim Aquil said:


> It's one guy... injured. We don't even know his back story don't pin medals on yourselves. *If he is a freedom fighter, the noble thing would be to let him kill the soldiers or leave Kashmir*.



But he is in mosque and fired on security personel.

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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> It's one guy... injured. We don't even know his back story don't pin medals on yourselves. If he is a freedom fighter, the noble thing would be to let him kill the soldiers or leave Kashmir.



Nah! Not that simple. Let me know when you do that to a TTP soldier. 

If captured, he will sing like a canary (aka Kasab, but surely not that impactful) and will probably lead to 2-3 more shahadats of the freedom fighters  . 

If killed, will be treated like a terrorist/militant if not wearing Pakistani Army uniform, in which case will be handed back with full honors.

If escapes, well, his good luck..


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## Awesome

Guli Danda said:


> The Army didn't attack the mosque and prevented it from being damaged...thats the definition of the Terrorist Indian Army.
> 
> The Muslim Freedom Fighters are using mosque as a center to unleash attacks.That's the degree of respect they hold for their religion.
> 
> Let us leave it on the Pakistanis to conclude..


They are in no danger! That's like saying the "Indian Army did not kill every first born today, see they are not so bad"

It would be well worth it if they chose to do that while they were pinned down and thousands of people attacking them, oh wait they've already killed over 100 people who did that...


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## Guli Danda

Asim Aquil said:


> They are in no danger! That's like saying the "Indian Army did not kill every first born today, see they are not so bad"
> 
> It would be well worth it if they chose to do that while they were pinned down and thousands of people attacking them, oh wait they've already killed over 100 people who did that...



Killing those who rose against India(fair deal for Indian Army,isn't it?):-Caring about the National sentiments of the country's people.

Not Killing the same terrorists,hidden inside a religious place(mosque):Caring about the religious sentiments.

Fair deal?....


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## Irfan Baloch

Karthic Sri said:


> Or according to you,Kashmiri Pandits,Sikhs,Dogras etc are not "sufficient" Kashmiris?




good debate thanks mate

hey the rights of the minorities should be also protected. since our models are now based on Western democracy so the voice of the Majority has more weight not at the expense of the minorities of course
a fair and just solution and resolution is what differentiates a true democracy from a fascist & ruthless regime.
Agree with your comment about UN (potency) but thats where your own beloved PM Nehru promised the vote for self determination.


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## KS

Some one is real desperate to ignite another round of protests by making the militant to take shelter inside the mosque and making the Indian Army look like infidels trampling upon the mosque.

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## KS

Jana said:


> As kashmir does not belong to Indians so you Indians indeed do not know the ground realities so here i should tell you.
> 
> 
> Masarat Alam Bhat had been arrested on and off since many decades and he has spent his entire life up till now almost in jail. They arrest him and then free him then arrest him.
> 
> lolz he is not most wanted rather Indians are paranoid with him. i will start posting stories about him and you will know.
> 
> This was not some big achievement by Indians but rather continuation of Indian barbarism against Masarat Alam Bhat.



Lol..Jana...

*You didnt get my drift. Leave it.*

Also Im not interested in knowing anything about anti-national traitors...So please spare me.


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## gubbi

That dimwit scum-bag has already desecrated the the place of worship by bringing in arms into the building. The building has lost its sacredness and so should no longer be considered a holy place. Raze it down (with the DB inside it)!

Yup as AA puts it, get him out of kashmir - asap, _katva do ticket jahannam ka_!

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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> They are in no danger! That's like saying the "Indian Army did not kill every first born today, see they are not so bad"


Actually, unlike the invincible Pakistani freedom fighters, live grenades, do post a danger to normal Indian army mortals.

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## KS

Irfan Baloch said:


> hey the rights of the minorities should be also protected. since our models are now based on Western democracy so the voice of the Majority has more weight not at the expense of the minorities of course
> a fair and just solution and resolution is what differentiates a true democracy from a fascist & ruthless regime.
> Agree with your comment about UN (potency) but that&#8217;s where your own beloved PM Nehru promised the vote for self determination.



The rights of the minorities must be protected,but they were not in Kashmir where the minorities and specifically the Hindus underwent one of the worst kinds of intimidation and murder that has few parallels.

*And as I said no modern nation,I repeat,no nation compromises on its territorial integrity for hollow morals and ethics especially after the blood of innumerable sons,husbands and fathers were spilled. Frankly it has become an emotional issue for us from a political issue* (BTW India came into Kashmir legally through the Instrument of Accession - so no lack of morals).

By giving into the demands of the Kashmiri Muslims now ,will it not set a bad precedent for the future wherein you can achieve your goals not by peaceful,democratic means,but by intimidation at the point of the gun.

Having said that,*I concede Kashmiri Muslims have some genuine demands like HR violations,presence of Sec Check points in civilian areas,non-lethal means crowd control etc.These must be strictly implemented.*But secession from the Indian Union - NO NO.

And I must say whatever deeds for which Nehru was liked,internationalising this issue where the Indian Army had the upper ground,was not definitely one amongst them.But then after 3 wars, Simla Agreement and about 20 years of insurgency, Kofi Annan itself has said that the UN resolutions have lost their relevance.*Its an internal matter of India in which Pakistan has a special interest.*


Irfan Baloch said:


> good debate thanks mate



The pleasure is both ways.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

you can't call it ''secession'' to begin with; otherwise it would entail that it already is ceded to hindustan -based on using legal framework and in an internationally recognized sense

such, (incidentally) is not the case as is evident


Kashmir is a disputed territory, not an ''integral'' part of anything except itself. Let the people decide. Don't waste time complaining about demographics when a small number of people migrated to another country for economic reasons (not so much to do with ''oppression'' or genocide'')

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## hillman32

What is new about this ?


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## Guli Danda

hillman32 said:


> What is new about this ?



*Kashmiri Terrorists* Shooting from inside a mosque...nothing new?


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## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> you can't call it ''secession'' to begin with; otherwise it would entail that it already is ceded to hindustan -based on using legal framework and in an internationally recognized sense
> 
> such, (incidentally) is not the case as is evident.Kashmir is a disputed territory, not an ''integral'' part of anything except itself.



Ahhh semantics - as long as the Indian Army shoots down any intruder crossing the LoC and the tricolor flies atop bunkers on the LoC,its our Territory.

Also one cardinal rule when somebody signs legal documents - both the parties must whole heartedly agree to it.

And it was so in the case between India and the Princely state of Kashmir represented by Maharaja Hari Singh.

I dont know what role the international community (which at that time was busy butchering one another) had in it. 




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Let the people decide. Don't waste time complaining about demographics when a small number of people migrated to another country for economic reasons (not so much to do with ''oppression'' or genocide'')



Lol..these lines are starting to sound ridiculously funny to me now.Keep denying the reality and are we going to loose anything.?

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## hillman32

Guli Danda said:


> *Kashmiri Terrorists* Shooting from inside a mosque...nothing new?





According to my perception, they are FREEDOM FIGHTERS and they are fighting for their legitimate cause of FREEDOM.

I differ with you once you call them "terrorists".

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Karthic Sri said:


> Ahhh semantics - as long as the Indian Army shoots down any intruder crossing the LoC and the tricolor flies atop bunkers on the LoC,its our Territory.



it has been well established that the local Kashmiris who resent indian occupation are from 1947-onforth dubbed ''infiltrators'' or ''intruders''

interestingly enough, the non-representative ''maharaja,'' from the 'desktop' at his elaborate Jammu palace referred to some of the intruders as ''Afridis, soldiers in plain clothes, and desperadoes with modern weapons'' during his desperate letter to ''his dear lord Mountbatten'' on Zhu'l Qadah 12, 1366 (26 Oct, 1947).


a.) where was the resistance by local Kashmiris, who obviously didn't seem adament to alleged ''outside help'' ??

b.) where is the proof to begin with, save for a few loosely worded statements?



> Also one cardinal rule when somebody signs legal documents - both the parties must whole heartedly agree to it.



Due to the unresolved and undemocratic nature of this transaction, all these territories are regarded as disputed; there are several UN resolutions calling hindustan (and Pakistan) to allow a UN administered plebiscite

furthermore, hindustan's backed termination of his ''throne'' says wonders about the arm-twisting tactics used by the latter (not limited to just co-ercing him to accede to indian domain (on paper) when all odds were against him otherwise ---namely on the GROUND




> And it was so in the case between India and the Princely state of Kashmir represented by Maharaja Hari Singh.



refer to above



> I dont know what role the international community (which at that time was busy butchering one another) had in it.



the United Nations, as toothless as it was to become, had already been formed. By joining the UN, both Pakistan and hindustan are obligated to abide by the Charter.





> Lol..these lines are starting to sound ridiculously funny to me now.Keep denying the reality and are we going to loose anything.?



the keyword is ''now''


nevertheless, laughing is never a bad thing. As long as it isn't nervous laughter

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## hembo

From JKLF's website:

*Quit-Kashmir cry echoes across LoC*


Srinagar, Oct. 3. 2010: &#8220;Quit Kashmir movement&#8221; has been launched in ***************** Kashmir too, echoing the four-month-old agitation on the Indian side of the Line of Control.

The campaign in *** has been started by the pro-independence Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) faction led by Amanullah Khan. It has had a low-key beginning since October 1 but is expected to intensify over the next three weeks.

The movement aims at &#8220;re-unification and complete independence&#8221; of the state, now divided by the LoC, said Touqeer Geelani, a spokesperson for the Amanullah faction. 

The JKLF is the premier separatist group in both Kashmirs but is divided into factions, two of which are led by Amanullah and Yasin Malik. Both factions have units on both sides of the LoC, but Amanullah is based in Pakistan while Malik lives in Srinagar.

A meeting of the Amanullah faction&#8217;s central committee was held in Rawalpindi on September 30, says a statement issued last week by Touqeer. The meeting decided to &#8220;expand the Quit Kashmir movement to *** and (Pakistan&#8217;s) northern areas, including Gilgit and Baltistan&#8221;, the statement said.

In Indian Kashmir, the four-month-old agitation has crippled life and left over 100 people dead, but it remains to be seen how much support the campaign can muster in ***. The campaign in Indian Kashmir is led by pro-Pakistan Hurriyat hawk Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who will oppose any such &#8220;movement&#8221; in ***.

&#8220;The JKLF has decided to hold a series of protest demonstrations in ***************** parts of Kashmir from September 30 and sit-in programmes from October 22 to 27 at different places close to the LoC to enlist support for a concerted movement,&#8221; Touqeer&#8217;s statement said.

It said public meetings would be held from October 1 to 20 at all district headquarters, colleges and university campuses in *** and Gilgit-Baltistan. &#8220;We will consolidate the otherwise suppressed national aspirations for re-unification and complete independence of the entire state,&#8221; Touqeer said.

&#8220;The JKLF will hold a &#8216;national integration restoration week&#8217; from October 21 as a mark of protest against these invading foreign occupying forces in Jammu and Kashmir,&#8221; he said, apparently referring to both Indian and Pakistani forces.

&#8220;On October 22, 1947, tribals supported by Pakistani forces entered Jammu and Kashmir to plunder and on October 27, 1947, the Indian forces arrived in Srinagar to occupy Jammu and Kashmir... with the result (that) the state was divided between India and Pakistan,&#8221; the statement added.

Amanullah&#8217;s daughter Asma is married to People&#8217;s Conference leader Sajjad Lone.

A leader of Malik&#8217;s faction said Amanullah&#8217;s campaign didn&#8217;t have his group&#8217;s support. &#8220;We stand for complete independence of both parts of Kashmir, but it is our prerogative when and where to start which campaign,&#8221; he said


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## hembo

Video Report of South Asia News

[video=metacafe;5359336/a_movement_against_pakistans_illegal_occupation_of]http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5359336/a_movement_against_pakistans_illegal_occupation_of _azad_kashmir/[/video]


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## Desert Fox

hillman32 said:


> According to my perception, they are FREEDOM FIGHTERS and they are fighting for their legitimate cause of FREEDOM.
> 
> I differ with you once you call them "terrorists".



Freedom is what they want and freedom is what they'll get InshaAllah!!

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## Spring Onion

GUNNER said:


> But where does the story say *Now separatists want Pak to Quit Kashmir* ?



Gunner let me tell you the background. Amanullah and another geek he is currently on visit to Pakistan. They had some rift with Yaseen Malik few years back after Amanullah and this other person whom i am talking were offered big funds by UK based anti-Pakistan elements (they include UK itself, Indians) so they separated from JKLF and started propaganda against Yaseen malik as well as Pakistan.


These days this group is on visit to Pakistan and are knitting a propaganda. They have visit Balitistan and Gilgit where people did not responded to their propaganda and now they are just doing some table report .

The main agenda has been assigned to them to spread lies about Azad Kashmir to divert attention of the world from Indian Occupied Kashmir.

oh i forgot this second person is a frequent visitor to India  

recently last year he visited India again where he was assigned to carry on propaganda against Pakistani dams .

BTW if you want to reach the man do send me a PM


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## arihant

SilentNinja said:


> Freedom is what they want and freedom is what they'll get InshaAllah!!



If you are referring freedom fighter, then they are on the way to get freedom within next 24 hours. InshaAllah, mosque would remained unharmed.


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## silent hill

the man probably wants the pakistani kashmiris to support the liberation of indian kashmir from indian tyrant occupation

pakistan kashmir is not which is under fire??, pakistan has motive to let kashmiris decide what they want in the first place on both sides of the border its bharat who displays its rudeness of giving any fair chance to kashmiris??


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## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> it has been well established that the local Kashmiris who resent indian occupation are from 1947-onforth dubbed ''infiltrators'' or ''intruders''
> 
> interestingly enough, the non-representative ''maharaja,'' from the 'desktop' at his elaborate Jammu palace referred to some of the intruders as ''Afridis, soldiers in plain clothes, and desperadoes with modern weapons'' during his desperate letter to ''his dear lord Mountbatten'' on Zhu'l Qadah 12, 1366 (26 Oct, 1947).
> 
> 
> a.) where was the resistance by local Kashmiris, who obviously didn't seem adament to alleged ''outside help'' ??
> 
> b.) where is the proof to begin with, save for a few loosely worded statements?



And the intention behind these words? If its saying that it was *NOT* tribal invaders from NWFP who went berseck in looting and killing rather local Kashmiris then I'm flabbergasted.




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Due to the unresolved and undemocratic nature of this transaction, all these territories are regarded as disputed; there are several UN resolutions calling hindustan (and Pakistan) to allow a UN administered plebiscite



And highness,who decides which transactions are democratic or un-democratic ?

UN resolutions lost their relevance once Op.Gibralter,Shimla Agreement took place and 10 years of cross-border infiltration took place.The final nail in the coffin was Kargil.

You wanted to say Might is Right through those incidents.Now its our turn .




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> furthermore, hindustan's backed termination of his ''throne'' says wonders about the arm-twisting tactics used by the latter (not limited to just co-ercing him to accede to indian domain (on paper) when all odds were against him otherwise ---namely on the GROUND



That was the the first mistake in a long series of mistakes Pakistan did/doing on Kashmir - allowing the Pathan tribals to invade Kashmir.Proved to be blessing in disguise for us.

Dont they say "no use in crying over the spilt milk"...




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> the United Nations, as toothless as it was to become, had already been formed. By joining the UN, both Pakistan and hindustan are obligated to abide by the Charter.



The only mistake we did regarding Kashmir.Fortunately Pakistan itself by intiating armed struggle and thereby violating the ceasefire helped us on that issue.




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> the keyword is ''now''
> 
> 
> nevertheless, laughing is never a bad thing. As long as it isn't *nervous laughter*



Sometimes nervous laughter causes much more damage to the enemy than ordinary ones.

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## Windjammer

toppys said:


> I thought pakistanis did the 48... more devotion to king than king himself... freedom fighter for 1 lakh rupees.
> stop exploiting poor and sending them across border.



One wonders, what incentives these Indian Officers were bidding for. ?

Is there any moral between the lines. !!!


More fake encounters in Indian Army
Sultan M Hali

The Indian Army suspended a Major and removed a Colonel from command on June 13, 2010 for their alleged role in staging the killing of three youths in North Kashmirs Machil sector along the LoC on April 30 and dubbing them Pakistani infiltrators, reports the Times of India. Colonel D K Pathania was commanding the unit 4 Rajput, allegedly responsible for the fake encounter, while J&K police named Major Upender Kumar as the main accused. The Indian Army had last week ordered a probe after a police report accused Major Upender of luring the trio with a job offer and gunning them down for rewards and promotion.

Colonel Pathania has been asked not to leave the Valley till inquiry is completed, said Armys Northern Command chief Lieutenant General B S Jaiswal. He was about to join his unit, which has relocated to Meerut. Pathania is the second officer to be removed from command after 33 Rashtriya rifles Colonel Gloria was removed for allegedly killing three boys in Dudipora-Handwara in North Kashmir in February 2006. It needs to be brought out that the Indian Army, which has let loose a reign of terror in the Valley of Kashmir, has committed every crime in the book. 

Kashmir has been a flashpoint between Pakistan and India since the British left it as an unfinished agenda. Indian Army illegally occupied Kashmir. Pakistan and India have gone to war thrice, in 1947-48, 1965 and 1971 but the plight of the Kashmiris has not changed. In 1989, the Kashmiris took up the cudgel of launching a freedom movement. However, the Indian Army came down hard on the Kashmiris by deploying over seven lakh soldiers, brutalizing them through murder ****, loot and arson. In a bid to malign Pakistan for morally supporting the Kashmiris, initially, on the eve of every visit by an international dignitary to India, a fake attack was stage managed and Pakistan was blamed so that it could be pressurized and given a bad name. Later the Indian Army started staging fake encounters for earning medals for valour as well as accelerated promotions. 

The Kargil War created even more opportunities for Indian Army personnel to conjure false encounters and create make-believe stories of valour. Last month, Indian army faced a huge embarrassment when its Armed Forces Tribunal raised serious questions over the Kargil war history setting the record straight regarding Indian fake claims in the Kargil skirmish, some of which came to light, when Brigadier Devinder Singh, who had commanded the 70 Infantry Brigade in the Batalik sector during the Kargil war petitioned against his superiors after being passed over for promotion and given only a low level peace time medal. Brigadier Singh had fought bravely but unfortunately for Singh, his superiors did not recognize his efforts and Lieutenant General Kishan Pal, his Corps Commander, doctored his battle performance report to underplay his role. Brigadier Singh became a victim of prejudice and that cost him a war medal and promotion. 

The verdict in the favour of Kargil war hero Brigadier Devinder Singh came as a slap on the face of the Indian armys Kargil war commanders. The tribunal has questioned the veracity of entire history of the Kargil war and concluded that top commanders fabricated war records to award their favourites with fake encounters. After a bitter decade-long fight, the Indian army has been forced to set the record straight about its performance in the Kargil conflict. In a judgment made public, Justice A.K. Mathur and Lieutenant-General Naidu have called on the Indian Army for a full investigation into the actions of the military leadership in the 1999 Kargil war. According to India Today, former Indian army chief General V.P. Malik has also admitted that the Indian Army had fudged the records for its gains. Readers may recall a February 01, 2010 exposé titled Another Fake Kargil Hero emerges in Indian Army, in which the lid had been blown off Grenadier Yonginder Singh Yadav and Havaldar Sanjay Kumar, who had been decorated and promoted out of turn for their feigned valour but later after the discovery of their falsehood, stripped of their ranks. After the Kargil conflict was over, the Indian Army Headquarters at New Delhi, which was stormed by controversies and massive criticism, not only for the debacle at the war front but also for the massive financial wrongdoings in the direction of procurements by army, had directed all the commanders of the Kargil front to immediately submit citations for the bravery of the soldiers so that the pressure from the political circles could be minimized nonetheless to boost up the morale of the demoralized troops. 

In the hasty compliance of strong orders from the headquarters, the commanders at Kargil made a variety of blunders and submitted many fake citations with the recommendations of top military awards including the highest and the most prestigious Paran Vir Chakra) (PVC) award. Wrong citations started surfacing soon and the biggest blunder in this regard emerged when the farcical episode of PVC recipient Grenadier Yoginder Singh Yadav got exposed as Yoginder was found hiding at a military hospital in New Delhi while, following the fake citations of his commanders, the government of India had awarded him with the posthumous (after death) PVC award. Indian army leadership was taken to sword by the opposition parties in the parliament not only for outrageous display of combat at Kargil but also for huge financial wrongdoings in procurements, during the conflict. 
 
The latest findings indicate that after pointing out glaring lapses and improprieties in purchase of specialized mountain warfare equipment for the Kargil war, the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) of India had said that even non-high-altitude weaponry deals were pushed through by the Defence Ministry in the name of Operation Vijay. Today as the truth emerges after eleven years, the Indian Army must hang its head in shame and conduct a full length inquiry as the tribunal has ordered to cleanse its records once for all and expose all its fake heroes.


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## Dr sim

Indian Jatt said:


> they wont. though I feel they should if the need arise.



Lets hope something has changed in the last 26 yrs ...........

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## Coltsfan

Irfan Baloch said:


> hey thanks for being so generous. surely it has something to do with being a citizen of biggest democracy.



Actually no, it has something to do with ignoring wishes of mentally challenged


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## Coltsfan

Irfan Baloch said:


> ever heard of the phrase "a picture speaks thousand words" ?
> did you shy away from the shameful & barbaric crackdown of Indian forces on the Kashmiri people?
> 
> I do agree with your comment though .. the case is Dismissed for Indian claim over Kashmir
> 
> Kashmir shall be free from Indian occupation in our lifetime



I pray that you live forever


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## mattoo

Pakistanis on this board claim that the entire Indian state of J&K should become part of their country. This is the maximalist position taken and of course, this means the largest possible territorial acquisition for that country.

In this thread, we are going to run a thought experiment.

Assume India decides to hand over the keys tomorrow morning, I would like to understand the plans for the state from the Pakistani perspective.

1. What do you intend to do about the non-muslim Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists who will come with the land? This is nearly 40% of the population of the state, about 4 million people. 

They will demand equal rights under the constitution. How prepared are you to secularize Pakistan to accommodate these people and grant them first class citizenship? 

2. If you decide to ask non-muslims to leave permanently, what kind of compensation are you prepared to give? My family, for example, has owned properties in Baramulla and Anantnag for countless generations. I cannot even contemplate in a rational mind that someone would ask me to leave my own house. 

3. What kind of economic and social package will be put together for the new acquisition? Can you offer more economic/social benefits than India? If so, how?

Where will you find the monies to fund this?

This is of course, an impossible situation, and Indians and Pakistanis know this. But, since you guys insist so much, I want to know how much thought has actually gone into the situation from the Pakistani side beyond a bunch of shouted slogans.


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## r3alist

firstly pakistani;s hope that this will come, this is the aim.


but you ask some good questions, they deserve some thought.


i would hope that they are treated as any other person, but this is an emotive issue.


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## StingRoy

Ok... this is a very controversial topic that you have raised @matoo, but given your disclaimer it may be a worthwhile discussion.

(1) The 40&#37; non-muslim population will take its time to decline into oblivion as have the non-muslim population in Pakistan since independence. There are currently around 3% non-muslim in Pakistan.
Secularization is out of question since it is an Islamic state. Heck they can't even tolerate Ahmadis, how will they give equal rights to non-muslims.

(2) I doubt Pakistan will want to buy out your land, why would they pay a compensation for something that is their own. Either you live there or get out of the country.

(3) About the economic packages and constitutional rights I guess it will be identical to people of P0K these days... they will get some funds and money, but no representation in the govt.

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## somebozo

well lets first clear the indian concepts of dispute

1. India claims the entire region including parts of China and northern Pakistan as disputed J&K territory which is not true at all. Maharaja did not control all of that territory and Northern Pakistani region

2. They will demand equal rights under the constitution. How prepared are you to secularize Pakistan to accommodate these people and grant them first class citizenship? 
Pakistan gives equal rights to people of all religion, race and gender. Only some religious bigots and Indian media claim otherwise. Sevral people of Hindu, Christian and Parsi faith are top business men class in Pakistan. An example would be Prince Aga Khan. Pakistan will not ask for any minorities to leave such did not even happen during the 47 partition though Nehru-Gandhi politics of duplicity did uproots thousands of muslims by gujrat style staged riots.


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## Hutchroy

r3alist said:


> firstly pakistani;s hope that this will come, this is the aim.
> 
> but you ask some good questions, they deserve some thought.
> 
> i would hope that they are treated as any other person, but this is an emotive issue.



1. Pakistan reduced its Non-Muslim content from 25-28% down to 3% by the time of the Death of Mr. Jinnah in September 1948. You must appreciate that Mr. Jinnah was the Greatest Secular Leader in Undivided India.

2. Bangladesh Minority Polulation has been decreased from 28% in 1947 to 22% in 1951 and is now about 8%.

As such if Pakistan takes over Kashmir then the Monority Population will be reduced to 3% in ONE YEAR.

Please check with Pakistan Census 1951 and Pakistan as well as Bangladesh latest Census.

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## StingRoy

somebozo said:


> 1. India claims the entire region including parts of China and northern Pakistan as disputed J&K territory which is not true at all. Maharaja did not control all of that territory and Northern Pakistani region




Instrument of Accession (Jammu and Kashmir) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Instrument of Accession is a legal document executed by Maharajah Hari Singh, ruler of the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir, on 26 October 1947. With the formal acceptance of the Governor General of India, it settled the question of the accession of the *Jammu and Kashmir princely state (including Jammu, Kashmir, Northern Areas, Ladakh, Trans-Karakoram Tract and Aksai Chin) to the Dominion of India.*


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## flameboard

Concerning the non-Muslims... I would urge you to look at non-Muslims in the rest of Pakistan. Sikhs in Punjab have given many statements online and in international media that they face no problems. Hindus also live in peace. There are the terrorists but they are a common enemy they kill even Muslims so there isn't a problem of equality there.

As for economy and society they too will flourish look at Azad Kashmir compared to Indian captured Kashmir people are free to walk around carry out their religious activities. The biggest problem of Kashmiris in the Indian captured part say they're biggest problem is the Indian army and government, so by Pakistan talking over there will be none of that.


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## BATMAN

If they are 40&#37; than Kashmir will be Indian.
I don't think it will be difficult for govt. to rig 20% votes or hold back 20% Muslims.


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## Hyde

mattoo said:


> Pakistanis on this board claim that the entire Indian state of J&K should become part of their country. This is the maximalist position taken and of course, this means the largest possible territorial acquisition for that country.
> 
> In this thread, we are going to run a thought experiment.
> 
> Assume India decides to hand over the keys tomorrow morning, I would like to understand the plans for the state from the Pakistani perspective.


You just asked some silly questions here and remaining questions were really good


mattoo said:


> 1. What do you intend to do about the non-muslim Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists who will come with the land? This is nearly 40&#37; of the population of the state, about 4 million people.


Nothing, they will be part of Kashmir as they are living now....we have non-muslims living in Pakistan already....... and their % will slightly be risen if this happens

Most Welcome!


mattoo said:


> They will demand equal rights under the constitution. How prepared are you to secularize Pakistan to accommodate these people and grant them first class citizenship?


They already enjoy the equal rights and we are somewhat a secular state in my opinion. Pakistan never implemented Shariah Law in this country, so we have democracy & somewhat are secular upto certain extents


mattoo said:


> 2. If you decide to ask non-muslims to leave permanently, what kind of compensation are you prepared to give? My family, for example, has owned properties in Baramulla and Anantnag for countless generations. I cannot even contemplate in a rational mind that someone would ask me to leave my own house.


Why will we? They are Kashmiris its their motherland, why we should ask anybody to leave their homes?


mattoo said:


> 3. What kind of economic and social package will be put together for the new acquisition? Can you offer more economic/social benefits than India? If so, how?


lol, same as India does
Technically India is not a very rich country itself.... they have a very comparative GDP per capita comparing to Pakistan so whatever they can offer, we can offer too 

Those billions and trillions of dollars of the total amount that the government owns does not mean everything really........if you compare the both nations, there is not a very huge difference.

*For example if India has 100 rupees to spend for 50 peoples
and we have 50 rupees to spend on 25 peoples
*
Its technically samething..... bit of difference shouldn't matter here



mattoo said:


> Where will you find the monies to fund this?


Same as we find for other provinces of Pakistan


mattoo said:


> This is of course, an impossible situation, and Indians and Pakistanis know this. But, since you guys insist so much, I want to know how much thought has actually gone into the situation from the Pakistani side beyond a bunch of shouted slogans.



well if we are to find a peaceful solution of Kashmir, its all give and take system here.... Both countries will have to compromise and the newer map drawn in future should be acceptable to all parties. I don't think getting the whole of Kashmir will be in favour of India, Pakistan or even Justifiable for Kashmiris..... its going to be a division of border among common religion, interest and geographical backgrounds etc.....Lets wait for the sane leaders to rise in both nations


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## S_O_C_O_M

..............................................


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## Omar1984

Hutchroy said:


> 1. Pakistan reduced its Non-Muslim content from 25-28% down to 3% by the time of the Death of Mr. Jinnah in September 1948. You must appreciate that Mr. Jinnah was the Greatest Secular Leader in Undivided India.
> 
> 2. Bangladesh Minority Polulation has been decreased from 28% in 1947 to 22% in 1951 and is now about 8%.
> 
> As such if Pakistan takes over Kashmir then the Monority Population will be reduced to 3% in ONE YEAR.
> 
> Please check with Pakistan Census 1951 and Pakistan as well as Bangladesh latest Census.




Provide links to support your claim.

Today's Pakistan lost Sikhs and Hindus in the following events:

1. Partition (1947-1948) - when many Sikhs and Hindus decided to leave for India. Many also decided to leave to India in 1948 especially Hindus of Sindh province.


2. 1971 - East Pakistan, now Bangladesh, always had a larger Hindu population than West Pakistan, now Pakistan. When East Pakistan separated from West Pakistan in 1971, the people of that region left with their land. Also the millions of Hindu Bengalis migrated to India in 1971.


So you cant compare the statistics from 1947 to today, a lot has happened in Pakistan since then.

Unlike in india, we never hear of riots against our minorities.


There are still millions of Hindus, Christians, Sikhs, and Parsis living in Pakistan.


There are still hundreds of Sikh Gurdwaras in Pakistan despite Pakistan being a Muslim majority country. If Pakistanis hated minorities we wouldve demolished those Sikh Gurdawaras and built Mosques in their place (like Indians demolished Babri Mosque and are now building a Hindu temple in its place).

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## Omar1984

mattoo said:


> 1. What do you intend to do about the non-muslim Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists who will come with the land? This is nearly 40&#37; of the population of the state, about 4 million people.




There's about a 33% non-muslim population in Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir. About 67% of the population in Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir are Muslims.


-----------------Population % Muslim % Hindu % Sikh % Buddhist/Other
Kashmir (53.9%) 5,476,970-- 97.16% 1.84% 0.88%---- 0.11% 
Jammu (43.7%) 4,430,191-- 30.69% 65.23% 3.57%---- 0.51% 
Ladakh (2.3%) 236,539---- --47.40% 6.22% &#8211;----------- 45.87% 
Jammu & Kashmir 10,143,700 66.97% 29.63% 2.03% 1.36% 


Jammu and Kashmir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## StingRoy

^^^ You should also account for the displaced Kashmiri Pandits. I think 40&#37; is a reasonable estimate (conservative in my opinion)

"The US Department of State reports that, according to the Indian National Human Rights Commission, the Kashmiri Pandit population in Jammu and Kashmir dropped from 15 percent in 1941 to 1 percent as of 2001"

Ref: Kashmiri Pandit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Omar1984

dezi said:


> ^^^ You should also account for the displaced Kashmiri Pandits. I think 40&#37; is a reasonable estimate (conservative in my opinion)
> 
> "The US Department of State reports that, according to the Indian National Human Rights Commission, the Kashmiri Pandit population in Jammu and Kashmir dropped from 15 percent in 1941 to 1 percent as of 2001"
> 
> Ref: Kashmiri Pandit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Then you should also count the 1.5 million Kashmiris who migrated to Azad Kashmir and rest of Pakistan due to indian army's terrorism in Indian occupied Jammu & Kashmir.


There are roughly 1.5 million refugees from Indian Administered Kashmir in Azad Kashmir and Pakistan.[27] An estimated 50&#8211;100,000 Kashmiri Muslims[28][29] and 150&#8211;300,000 Kashmiri Pandits have been internally displaced due to militancy.[26][30]

Jammu and Kashmir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Less than 33% are non-muslims if you include those Kashmiris who are displaced (including Pandits and Kashmiris who migrated from Indian Occupied Kashmir to Azad Kashmir and rest of Pakistan).

If you include Kashmiri Pandits living in Delhi and other parts of India then you have to include Kashmiri Muslims living in Lahore and Karachi and other parts of Pakistan as well.

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## KALKI

.................


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## KALKI

India ceding Kashmir to Pakistan is only a utopian dream of some.

1. India won't undergo another division on the lines of religion.

2. India won't lose the control of waters

Hence the question this thread seeks answer of is utopian at best and in no way going to happen.

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## Camdor

first of all, I cannot even think of Giving Kashmir to Pakistanis or any other Nation.
Secondly if there is some thing like that (May God never does so) then it will another 1947 type situation, but army has to play the role in securing te refugees.


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## KALKI

Camdor said:


> first of all, I cannot even think of Giving Kashmir to Pakistanis or any other Nation.
> Secondly if there is some thing like that (May God never does so) then it will another 1947 type situation, but army has to play the role in securing te refugees.



Dude just forget it. Not going to happen. Not now. Not ever.

Why not then ask what will happen if if create khalistan?

tamilnadu?

north east?

haryana?

....

Kashmir is an integral part of India and this is not just a political rant.

When we say kashmir is an integral part WE MEAN IT!

It's like asking what will happen if I cut-off your hand?

your leg??

.......

Only way Kashmir can join Pakistan is when Pakistan prevails over India at the end of a Nuclear Holocaust. 

Now tell me how absurd does it sound?

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## StingRoy

Omar1984 said:


> Then you should also count the 1.5 million Kashmiris who migrated to Azad Kashmir and rest of Pakistan due to indian army's terrorism in Indian occupied Jammu & Kashmir.


I am trying to give an estimate of the people in India who are a stakeholder of JnK in India, those who own property and land in the state. The immigrants to P0K and Pandits in Pakistan do not hold properties in JnK. Considering them the percentage will definitely be closer to 40% as @mattoo suggested.


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## StingRoy

@iRobot and @Camdor... I think the thread starter has already put this disclaimer that this is just a hypothetical situation and is not going to happen during the lifetime of most of us discussing this situation... nevertheless the topic is an interesting reflection of the options beyond the current situation and reality.


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## IBRIS

iRobot said:


> Dude just forget it. Not going to happen. Not now. Not ever.
> 
> Why not then ask what will happen if if create khalistan?



Forget the rest, Khalistan alone will be the worst nightmare for today's Pakistan if it ever happened. Last thing they want is another extremist religious front, which will claim vast westside of Pak-Punjab.


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## KALKI

IBRIS said:


> Forget the rest, Khalistan alone will be the worst nightmare of today's Pakistan if it ever happened. Last thing they want is another extremist religious front, which will claim vast westside of Pak-Punjab.



I only demand the answer to one question from anyone who cares to answer.

What is your plan if I cut-off:

your hand?

your leg?

your kidney?

your testicles?

something else?

Pray, please do answer me...


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## KALKI

dezi said:


> @iRobot and @Camdor... I think the thread starter has already put this disclaimer that this is just a hypothetical situation and is not going to happen during the lifetime of most of us discussing this situation... nevertheless the topic is an interesting reflection of the options beyond the current situation and reality.



This topic is trash and that's all it is....trash....rubbish!

Ok so should I create a thread for every hypothetical wet dream I have??


How about I start with cutting-off your vital body parts??? Shall I create a thread for this hypothetical scenario?

Let's see how'd you cope with it...


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## IBRIS

iRobot said:


> I only demand the answer to one question from anyone who cares to answer.
> 
> What is your plan if I cut-off:
> 
> your hand?
> 
> your leg?
> 
> your kidney?
> 
> your testicles?
> 
> something else?
> 
> Pray, please do answer me...


No more devisions in present or future. It's like asking a charging bull to not to budge.


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## StingRoy

iRobot said:


> This topic is trash and that's all it is....trash....rubbish!
> Ok so should I create a thread for every hypothetical wet dream I have??
> How about I start with cutting-off your vital body parts??? Shall I create a thread for this hypothetical scenario?
> Let's see how'd you cope with it...



I would still say it is worth debating... isn't it... that is the fun of debating ... you discuss something which you don't agree with or cannot imagine to live with or accept.


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## Coltsfan

dezi said:


> I would still say it is worth debating... isn't it... that is the fun of debating ... you discuss something which you don't agree with or cannot imagine to live with or accept.



You should debate and discuss something that is at least an iota of chance of happening. Debating something just for the heck of it doesn't make much sense.

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## TOPGUN

Another bs thread started to start tensions between each other man give it a rest grow up talk about peace and friendship for once.

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## foxbat

Guys

We are way off topic here.. The topic is a specific situation, and not the ideological one..

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Karthic Sri said:


> And the intention behind these words? If its saying that it was *NOT* tribal invaders from NWFP who went berseck in looting and killing rather local Kashmiris then I'm flabbergasted.



not my problem....Kashmir unrest and resistance is a purely Kashmiri (local) phenomenon



> And highness,who decides which transactions are democratic or un-democratic ?



do you REALLY care? 




> UN resolutions lost their relevance once Op.Gibralter,Shimla Agreement took place and 10 years of cross-border infiltration took place.The final nail in the coffin was Kargil.



such movements have been going on for centuries; no big deal

as for militancy, well, again, purely Kashmiri phenomenon; ask yourself why they are resisting





> You wanted to say Might is Right through those incidents.Now its our turn







> That was the the first mistake in a long series of mistakes Pakistan did/doing on Kashmir - allowing the Pathan tribals to invade Kashmir.Proved to be blessing in disguise for us.



the real blessing in disguise is when you install puppet govts. and claim they are representative of the people

(and by people I mean PEOPLE......the Kashmiris, not the guys sitting dilly dallying in navi delhi 




> Dont they say "no use in crying over the spilt milk"...



who is crying



> The only mistake we did regarding Kashmir.Fortunately Pakistan itself by intiating armed struggle and thereby violating the ceasefire helped us on that issue.



which provided a smokescreen for indian occupation forces to "armed struggle" against mostly unarmed, but un-corruptible subjects 




> Sometimes nervous laughter causes much more damage to the enemy than ordinary ones.



oh???


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## Omar1984

dezi said:


> I am trying to give an estimate of the people in India who are a stakeholder of JnK in India, those who own property and land in the state. The immigrants to P0K and Pandits in Pakistan do not hold properties in JnK. Considering them the percentage will definitely be closer to 40&#37; as @mattoo suggested.



How do you know Kashmiris who migrated to Azad Kashmir and Pakistan from Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir dont hold properties and land in Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir, they've been living in Indian Occupied Jammu & Kashmir for generations, just like your Pandits...its their homeland.

If you count the Kashmiri Pandits living in India then Kashmiris living in Pakistan should also be counted. And add to that the Muslim population of Azad Kashmir, which is almost 100%. If you put Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir and Azad Kashmir together, the Muslim population is more than 80% and non-muslim population is less than 20%.



Administered by Area----------- Population % Muslim % Hindu % Buddhist % Other 
India----------- Kashmir Valley ~4 million----- 95%----- 4%* &#8211; &#8211; 
-------------------------Jammu ~3 million----- 30%----- 66% &#8211;----------------- 4% 
--------------------------Ladakh ~0.25 million 50%------------ &#8211; 46%----------- 3% 
Pakistan ---------Azad Kashmir ~2.6 million--- 100% &#8211; &#8211; &#8211; 
-------------------Northern Areas ~1 million----- 99%


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir


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## KALKI

J&K Police achieved a major breakthrough on Monday as they arrested most-wanted hardline Hurriyat leader Masarat Alam during a raid at his hideout in Telbal on Srinagars outskirts.

Yes, we have arrested him, inspector general of police(Kashmir range) Shiv Murari Sahai said.

Police were hunting for Masarat for the past four months and had reportedly announced a Rs10-lakh reward for information leading to his arrest.

Masarat kept eluding police even when he was reaching out to the masses with the help of supporters in the Valley. He even addressed a press meet under the nose of police and distributed CDs with a recorded speech among the media.

The 39-year-old general secretary of the Syed Ali Shah Geelani-led Hurriyat Conference had become a cult figure who announced the Quit Jammu and Kashmir programme when Geelani was in jail.

Police say he was the man behind the agitation, protest calendars and stone-pelting cartels that claimed 110 lives, most of them in firing by security forces, since June 11 in Kashmir. Masarat had been on the run since he announced the Quit Jammu and Kashmir programme.

Brain behind Kashmir Valleys stone-pelters Masarat Alam held in Srinagar - India - DNA


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## third eye

TOPGUN said:


> Another bs thread started to start tensions between each other man give it a rest grow up talk about peace and friendship for once.



Agreed.

We are being asked to discuss an option which is never going to happen and is completely unacceptable to India !

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## KALKI

Why can't we have an assassination program for such enemies of the state? We need to seriously think about neutralizing such enemies of the state.


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## gubbi

Matoo did raise interesting questions. I wonder how our across-the-border brethren are going to answer these, especially those knowledgeable ones who bring in all sorts of sources and what nots to question the accord of accession, calling for a plebiscite in the vain hope that Kashmiris would join Pakistan.

Except for Zaki's attempt at trying to answer the questions, most of the answers are hollow and superficial. Especially the one talking about Prince Aga Khan. Apparently the member doesnt know that Aga Khanis (Ismailis) consider themselves as followers of progressive Islam. The very fact that Prince Aga Khan was mentioned to point out support for non-Muslims speaks volumes about the general point of view.

Zaki bhai, your attempt at answering the questions seems to be very honest (I love your posts and there is an aura of innocence about them) but I would 'blame' that innocence for coming up with such sugary utopian answers. Alas the reality is quite different.


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## roach

Excellent news. Now to find out what, and who, was behind this scumbag. 
Spontaneous protests indeed.


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## KALKI

@ Gubbi: Could you please answer the question I posted above?


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## gubbi

iRobot said:


> @ Gubbi: Could you please answer the question I posted above?



For argument's sake Matoo's questions are valid. Many here cry themselves hoarse that Kashmir should be a part of Pakistan. The semi-official view of Pakistan is that "Kashmir should have been ours"! 

So being a Kashmiri pundit (the original instigators of Kashmiri 'struggle'), Matoo asked valid questions wanting to know what can Pakistan offer better than what India is presently doing.
Answer - Nothing. Zilch!

Matoo's post/questions was a smack across those mischief mongers' bewildered faces!

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## StingRoy

Omar1984 said:


> How do you know Kashmiris who migrated to Azad Kashmir and Pakistan from Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir dont hold properties and land in Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir, they've been living in Indian Occupied Jammu & Kashmir for generations, just like your Pandits...its their homeland.
> 
> If you count the Kashmiri Pandits living in India then Kashmiris living in Pakistan should also be counted. And add to that the Muslim population of Azad Kashmir, which is almost 100%. If you put Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir and Azad Kashmir together, the Muslim population is more than 80% and non-muslim population is less than 20%.



Fair enough with your argument when you consider a plebiscite case for all the parties involved in the conflict, but the topic in question warrants the people who will be involved in case of 'handing over the keys' as the thread starter pointed out. 

In this case GoP will have to consider dealing with the Pandits as well (as is pointed out in option/point 2), hence I still believe there will be 40% non-muslims whose opinions need to be considered.


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## secularguy

Another Interesting Point is(provided this is a Hypothetical Scenario), How can Hindus and Sikhs (of Indian State of Jammu&Kashmir)Align with a Enemy Country, Especially a islamic republic?provided their territory is forcefully acceded?Mass Murdering, Forced Conversion are Waiting for them in Such a Situation.They Will Treat Non-muslims as Animals.That's What the least from these can be expected.
CAN WE EVEN THINK OF GIVING OUR PEOPLE TO MEDIEVAL MARAUDERS FOR SLAUGHTERING?

India must work to neutralize(and wait for the Correct time) the Radical Elements to Disappear...if it takes 50 or 100 Years to Recapture it's Rightful Possessions from Pakistan- P0K and China.


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## Camdor

dezi said:


> @iRobot and @Camdor... I think the thread starter has already put this disclaimer that this is just a hypothetical situation and is not going to happen during the lifetime of most of us discussing this situation... nevertheless the topic is an interesting reflection of the options beyond the current situation and reality.



What Kind of Hypothetical situation,
every one knows there will be riots and genocide. Whats so special??? Forgot displacement of 3,00,000 Kashmiri Pandits??
If India cannot hold Kashmir then its already understood that we cannot help any one. 
Kashmir is a modal, If we let it go then every third person will ask for its separate state.


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## Camdor

iRobot said:


> I only demand the answer to one question from anyone who cares to answer.
> 
> What is your plan if I cut-off:
> 
> your hand?
> 
> your leg?
> 
> your kidney?
> 
> your testicles?
> 
> something else?
> 
> Pray, please do answer me...



the answer is simple,
you will find people with 
hand 

leg
kidney,
liver,
testicles

cut or burnt or out in open.

That happens when a country spilts. 

and If we gain northern Areas, then u know our government is secular.


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## Mirza Jatt

*After 24 hours in mosque, militant is killed*

Srinagar: The 24-hour stand off between an injured Lashkar-e-Toiba militant holed up inside a mosque and security forces in Bandipora district ended n Tuesday morning with the killing of the ultra.

The militant Abu Dawood was injured in the encounter with security forces in Barzulla village yesterday and died inside the mosque early this morning, official sources said.

They said the ultra had taken refuge in the mosque while fleeing the security forces and had died due to injuries sustained during the encounter. Army had sent local elders and Imam (prayer leader) of the mosque to persuade the militant to leave the religious place and surrender before the security forces.

However, he refused the offer and hurled grenades and opened fire on the security forces, the sources said. One militant was killed in the initial firefight between the two sides yesterday.

Read more at: After 24 hours in mosque, militant is killed


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## Mirza Jatt

*After 24 hours in mosque, militant is killed*

Srinagar: The 24-hour stand off between an injured Lashkar-e-Toiba militant holed up inside a mosque and security forces in Bandipora district ended n Tuesday morning with the killing of the ultra.

The militant Abu Dawood was injured in the encounter with security forces in Barzulla village yesterday and died inside the mosque early this morning, official sources said.

They said the ultra had taken refuge in the mosque while fleeing the security forces and had died due to injuries sustained during the encounter. Army had sent local elders and Imam (prayer leader) of the mosque to persuade the militant to leave the religious place and surrender before the security forces.

However, he refused the offer and hurled grenades and opened fire on the security forces, the sources said. One militant was killed in the initial firefight between the two sides yesterday.

Read more at: After 24 hours in mosque, militant is killed

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## sensenreason

Hutchroy said:


> 1. Pakistan reduced its Non-Muslim content from 25-28% down to 3% by the time of the Death of Mr. Jinnah in September 1948. You must appreciate that Mr. Jinnah was the Greatest Secular Leader in Undivided India.
> 
> 2. Bangladesh Minority Polulation has been decreased from 28% in 1947 to 22% in 1951 and is now about 8%.
> 
> As such if Pakistan takes over Kashmir then the Monority Population will be reduced to 3% in ONE YEAR.
> 
> Please check with Pakistan Census 1951 and Pakistan as well as Bangladesh latest Census.



If you are British origin British national residing in Britain than you have a lot to answer for...creating problems around the world like the Israeli-Palestian dispute, Kashmir and others...

Slowly but surely, I know many Indians are coming around to the view that British Empire was no better than Nazis and should be held accountable for crimes against humanity and also need compensation for looting India for 300 years...

The slander campaign against India during CWG led by BBC hasnt gone unnoticed and will be replied during 2012/2014 games in UK...

As far as the topic of the day goes..UK should fund the rehab of Pandits and Kashmiris residing outside Kashmir to start with...lets start by you paying 1 billion dollar USD each to India and Pak as damages.

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## Areesh

> After 24 hours in mosque, militant is killed



Salute to the brave warrior.


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## Areesh

> After 24 hours in mosque, militant is killed



Salute to the brave warrior.

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## TaimiKhan

Hutchroy said:


> 1. Pakistan reduced its Non-Muslim content from 25-28% down to 3% by the time of the Death of Mr. Jinnah in September 1948. You must appreciate that Mr. Jinnah was the Greatest Secular Leader in Undivided India.
> 
> 2. Bangladesh Minority Polulation has been decreased from 28% in 1947 to 22% in 1951 and is now about 8%.
> 
> As such if Pakistan takes over Kashmir then the Monority Population will be reduced to 3% in ONE YEAR.
> 
> Please check with Pakistan Census 1951 and Pakistan as well as Bangladesh latest Census.



Partition was a different thingy, there was revenge attacks happening on both sides, thus people migrated, Pakistan did not forced the minorities to be gone from the country, had this been the case, we would not be having the 3% minority or the thousands of Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, Parsees, Jews etc etc still living. Had it been state run policy, we would be seeing 0% minority. 

And as for Bangladeshi minority, since they got their own country, many left voluntarily, had it been govt forced, the figure would have been 0%, not 8%. 

So you are wrong in saying that if Kashmir gets into Pakistani fold, its minority would be reduced to 3%, as no one is gonna be forced out. If they want to live here, they are most welcome, it won't be like partition time period where killings took place. 

And i hope, we get better laws and tolerance levels with respect to minorities. They may not be Muslims, but they are Human beings, and as for Islamic teachings, it very well tells us on how to respect human being without taking into consideration the religion and give them full rights without any biased approach.


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## Coltsfan

sensenreason said:


> If you are British origin British national residing in Britain than you have a lot to answer for...creating problems around the world like the Israeli-Palestian dispute, Kashmir and others...



What's wrong with Israel? In fact we should be thankful for creation of the state of Israel, India and Israel are two countries containing Islamic militancy on both sides.

Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Palestine............ You can see what nations we have b/w the two.



> Slowly but surely, I know many Indians are coming around to the view that British Empire was no better than Nazis and should be held accountable for crimes against humanity and also need compensation for looting India for 300 years...



You are the first Indian (if you really are Indian) that I have heard saying that. India did not exist before advent of Britishers, we were hundreds of princely states fighting with each other.



> The slander campaign against India during CWG led by BBC hasnt gone unnoticed and will be replied during 2012/2014 games in UK...



What slander campaign, do you not agree that arrangements that were made were shoddy? A pedestrian bridge collapses days before opening ceremony, snakes found where athletes are supposed to stay. Kalmadi should be jailed for bungling the organization of the games.




> As far as the topic of the day goes..UK should fund the rehab of Pandits and Kashmiris residing outside Kashmir to start with...lets start by you paying 1 billion dollar USD each to India and Pak as damages.



$1 billion eh? Now we are just pulling random figures out of .......... ?

Someone's been getting high it seems

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## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> not my problem....Kashmir unrest and resistance is a *purely Kashmiri (local) phenomenon*



Only if Afridi tribes are native to Kashmir and not to Khyber 




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> do you REALLY care?



Let me rephrase the sentence - " *Do I really care ?* whether it was democratic or not ?  "




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> such movements have been going on for centuries; no big deal







Abu Zolfiqar said:


> as for militancy, well, again, *purely Kashmiri phenomenon*; ask yourself why they are resisting



See above.




Abu Zolfiqar said:


>



Pakistan thought they were stronger than India in 1965 (After 62 defeat and the famous 1 Muslim pakistani = 10 Hindu Indians logic) and wanted to capture Kashmir through might.So its our turn now.




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> the real blessing in disguise is when you install puppet govts. and claim they are representative of the people
> 
> (and by people I mean PEOPLE......the Kashmiris, not the guys sitting dilly dallying in navi delhi



I dont see much benefits that are accruing to Pakistan through that Blessing.Or has it.? 




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> who is crying



Isnt it self-evident.? 




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> which provided a smokescreen for indian occupation forces to "armed struggle" against mostly unarmed, but un-corruptible subjects



Excellent and almost fool-proof "smoke-screen" I must add considering that the whole of the international community now acknowledges the cross-border patronisation.


*p.s.:* *Should we start to engage in some meaningful discussion or continue with these one-liners based on some alternate version of reality ? I'm fine by both*.

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## KS

Coltsfan said:


> You are the first Indian (if you really are Indian) that I have heard saying that. India did not exist before advent of Britishers, we were hundreds of princely states fighting with each other.



I see this argument that "if the British had not come we would still be pricely states fighting each other" doing rounds often.

Nothing can be farther from truth - Even if the British had not come with the globalisation and the converging interests in religion,culture some sort of federation of states would surely have happpened.


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## Coltsfan

Karthic Sri said:


> I see this argument that "if the British had not come we would still be pricely states fighting each other" doing rounds often.
> 
> Nothing can be farther from truth - Even if the British had not come with the globalisation and the converging interests in religion,culture some sort of federation of states would surely have happpened.



That is highly speculative, we can have discussion on another thread seeing as this topic is way off the original thread


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## prototype

mattoo said:


> 1. What do you intend to do about the non-muslim Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists who will come with the land? This is nearly 40% of the population of the state, about 4 million people.



Pakistan will definitely provide them asylum,there is already a good minority non Muslim population in Pakistan,but the question is r this people ready to change patronage



mattoo said:


> They will demand equal rights under the constitution. How prepared are you to secularize Pakistan to accommodate these people and grant them first class citizenship?



Pakistan is not a hardcore Islamic state(as told by Zaki)atleast on paper,and i dont think their is anything like first class and second class citizenship again on paper,but we know how much democratic rights they enjoy



mattoo said:


> 2. If you decide to ask non-muslims to leave permanently, what kind of compensation are you prepared to give? My family, for example, has owned properties in Baramulla and Anantnag for countless generations. I cannot even contemplate in a rational mind that someone would ask me to leave my own house.



They r not going to pay any compensation

Remember Pakistan claims Kashmir as its birth right,they r not in Kashmir to purchase the land and then claim it

The populace have an option of accepting Pakistani citizenship or get displaced to India,in the 2nd case it is the job of India to compensate them



mattoo said:


> 3. What kind of economic and social package will be put together for the new acquisition? Can you offer more economic/social benefits than India? If so, how?
> 
> Where will you find the monies to fund this?
> 
> .



What kind of package u expect currently looking at the economic status of Pakistan,and if some reports emerging from *** is to b beleived some people there also r not happy with the social package Pakistan is providing

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## Awesome

This thread has served as an excellent suspension pit. Stick to topic and don't troll around here to fulfill your agenda. It is apparent that all the people who were banned posted for the sole intention to make a score. No forum celebs would get another pass for another incident. You can play royal rumble off this forum.


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## Awesome

Also on a related note of common decency, Kashmiri freedom fighters are India's enemy and so while we cannot expect Indians to sing praises for them for our sakes, they must also not be insulted. The same way IA serving in Kashmir are Pakistan's enemy. While we want our enemies dead - there is even a code, a sense of respect for your opposing combatants and a decorum must always be maintained.

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## SpArK

Indian Jatt said:


> *After 24 hours in mosque, militant is killed*
> 
> Srinagar: The 24-hour stand off between an injured Lashkar-e-Toiba militant holed up inside a mosque and security forces in Bandipora district ended n Tuesday morning with the killing of the ultra.
> 
> The militant Abu Dawood was injured in the encounter with security forces in Barzulla village yesterday and died inside the mosque early this morning, official sources said.
> 
> They said the ultra had taken refuge in the mosque while fleeing the security forces and had died due to injuries sustained during the encounter. Army had sent local elders and Imam (prayer leader) of the mosque to persuade the militant to leave the religious place and surrender before the security forces.
> 
> However, he refused the offer and hurled grenades and opened fire on the security forces, the sources said. One militant was killed in the initial firefight between the two sides yesterday.
> 
> Read more at: After 24 hours in mosque, militant is killed



Great news. Militant has been sent to where he belong to.

Congrats to forces.


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## TaimiKhan

BENNY said:


> Great news. Militant has been sent to where he belong to.
> 
> Congrats to forces.



Do remember, next time when someone says the same for the Kashmiri Freedom Fighters after they kill the occupational forces soldier, don't complain.
*
And I don't need Indian members answering to my this post, just read it and remember it, as Indians come complaining when someone says something like this about the occupational soldiers getting killed at the hands of Kashmiri Mujahedins, so I am just telling, since you guys say the same thing and no one is complaining and the remark is left untouched, so when the opposite happens, don't come running.

Anymore idiotic reply to this post is given, then be prepared for the repercussions too. *

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## sensenreason

Coltsfan said:


> What's wrong with Israel? In fact we should be thankful for creation of the state of Israel, India and Israel are two countries containing Islamic militancy on both sides.
> 
> Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Palestine............ You can see what nations we have b/w the two.
> 
> You are the first Indian (if you really are Indian) that I have heard saying that. India did not exist before advent of Britishers, we were hundreds of princely states fighting with each other.
> 
> What slander campaign, do you not agree that arrangements that were made were shoddy? A pedestrian bridge collapses days before opening ceremony, snakes found where athletes are supposed to stay. Kalmadi should be jailed for bungling the organization of the games.
> 
> $1 billion eh? Now we are just pulling random figures out of .......... ?
> 
> Someone's been getting high it seems



You might like Israel but the conflict is a legacy of the empire...Its not about whats India or Pakistans political position on Israel-Palestine but the role played by Britishers in inflaming the issue. bbEven recently Tony Blair the who is derided played a pathetic role in the Iraq war.

No one is defending the issues that happened during or before CWG, but you might not be aware but there was a coordinated campaign unleashed by the British to dis-credit the games. I have followed these games issues since Oct 2009 and believe that while Kalmadi and the whole OC was rotten there was an attempt to pass the buck by the CWF incl Hooper/Fennel once they realised that there own hands were dirty and being investigated.Is it not surprising that on Aug 19th Fennel visited the games village and found the same problems as he found on Sep 15th. What was he or Hooper doing for a month? The games went off reasonably well but Fennel & co might have got away from the probe as they had many teams ready to withdraw from the games and used that as a negotiating item with the Govt...Dr Singh refused to meet Mr Fennel for this reason.

You might recall the failed attempt of David Cameron who visited India in July to curry up to India in return for Business and other things..UK is in deep trouble fiscally right now and is unhappy by Dr Singhs rebuff.

You only had to follow the news channels across UK and other countries to know what Im saying. Telegraph and Guardian ran blogs by there reporters that specifically reported ONLY the problems in the games. Actually, the Aussies were the least strident of the media's amongst all of them unfortunately the race attacks didnt help their cause.If you think all -ve reporting wrt CWG was unbiased then you probaly werent following the reports closely enough.

Clearly, you are like many others during the 18th century who trusted the East India Company and who know every well what happened thereafter.As far as UK & Islamic militancy goes they are as deep in nurturing it as the Americans, its not a surprise then that the FIRST reports after 26/11 reported British Pakistani's as the attackers (BBC doesnt still call them terrorists but armed men or militants)..

I mentioned the 1 Billion number out of my hat..well then lets bring the poms down totally and demand 1 Trillion USD...they cant pay that in 300 yrs.


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## Awesome

Anonymous_Clown said:


> Anyway our friends from the West aren't going to stop saying such things, no matter what "BENNY" on PDF says or does not say.
> 
> For the time being allow us the luxury of rejoicing in the fact that yet another maniac with lethal weapons, who set out to kill others and who could have potentally killed dozens of innocent people, has been killed and got his just desserts.


I don't know how much of a maniac he was. I mean sure its always wrong to bring violence to a mosque (or any other place of worship) but you must also consider that he was being hunted down not by saints but by an army of rapists and baby killers.

The desperate choices one makes when faced with certain death is excusable. However he died doing the service to his people and the fight goes on, the news has it that the Kashmiri freedom fighters have ensured Constable Kartar Singh, breathed his last.

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## mehboobkz

Areesh said:


> Salute to the brave warrior.




The so called brave hiding in a mosque ?

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## Anonymous_Clown

Asim Aquil said:


> I don't know how much of a maniac he was. I mean sure its always wrong to bring violence to a mosque (or any other place of worship) but you must also consider that he was being hunted down not by saints but by an army of rapists and baby killers.
> 
> The desperate choices one makes when faced with certain death is excusable. However he died doing the service to his people and the fight goes on, the news has it that the Kashmiri freedom fighters have ensured Constable Kartar Singh, breathed his last.



Really, if you generalize the entire Indian army as an army of "rapists and baby killers", it only shows your bias. Any security force in the world will try to prevent people with lethal weapons from getting away. And did you notice that they tried to *request * the fugutive to surrender (through the Mosque imam)? And did you notice that they struggled so much only to save the Mosque? I mean, if the Indian army is indeed soooo evil, how tough it is to simply lob grenades and shells inside the mosque?

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## Areesh

mehboobkz said:


> The so called brave hiding in a mosque ?



The so called brave(according to you) also refused to surrender.


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## Iggy

With due respect to the Admins,the suspension of some senior members here is unwanted ..its nothing other than you guys wanted to win an argument by banning the other side..This is no freedom of Speech Asim ..


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## Bang Galore

Asim Aquil said:


> * but you must also consider that he was being hunted down not by saints but by an army of rapists and baby killers.
> *
> .



The only reason to put in the underlined words would be if he was a baby or a potential victim of the _"rapist army_". Otherwise it isn't germane to the post. Btw, you seem to be very good at giving advice on how respect to "combatants" is to be necessarily given, not that good at following it yourself.

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## Awesome

Bang Galore said:


> The only reason to put in the underlined words would be if he was a baby or a potential victim of the _"rapist army_". Otherwise it isn't germane to the post. Btw, you seem to be very good at giving advice on how respect to "combatants" is to be necessarily given, not that good at following it yourself.


I haven't called them the terrorist army or pigs and dogs. Raping and Baby killing is a serious problem with the Indian army and there are many convictions that have been given against them. The media is filled with accounts of Indian army engaged in raping. 

From the constable to the Indian PM in New Delhi, all may not be responsible but they are all accountable even if one such incident takes place. That is the concept of Chain of Command and you're there in Kashmir by force and not on anyone's insistence. Militants are fighting because you're occupying them. Without your soldiers there they won't be fighting - no mosque would have to be used as a sanctuary, no grenades would have to be hurled.

So it all comes down to the Indian Army. Every death, every crime is India's fault.

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## John Doe

Hey, I know that this has nothing to do with the militant who chose to fight it out in a mosque, but I have to reply to the above post by Windjammer which too is completely out of context here.
This article is the same BS that is being plugged by the fictitious 'Chistina Palmer' and now someone named 'Sultan something'. 

No Param Vir Chakra has been revoked , and all this horse turd about Grenadier Yadav hiding in a hospital is the height of lies. Please show me any article written by real individuals (not make believe journalists) about these revocations or acts of cowardice and I'll be the 1st one to admit I am wrong.

Windy,since you have posted this, pl. communicate with me either publicly or send me a PM replying to this post.


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## Awesome

seiko said:


> With due respect to the Admins,the suspension of some senior members here is unwanted ..its nothing other than you guys wanted to win an argument by banning the other side..This is no freedom of Speech Asim ..


Everybody was banned on second or third offence after receiving fair warning. 

If you'd notice any post specifically related to this incident has not been deleted, and the user not banned (if he didn't went on to post something else).

We're not here to win an argument of who can mock someone else or not. Most of the people banned (including Pakistanis) were banned because they were using this space to mock each other. You can do that on your own time, not here.


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## Iggy

Asim Aquil said:


> Everybody was banned on second or third offence after receiving fair warning.
> 
> If you'd notice any post specifically related to this incident has not been deleted, and the user not banned (if he didn't went on to post something else).
> 
> We're not here to win an argument of who can mock someone else or not. Most of the people banned (including Pakistanis) were banned because they were using this space to mock each other. You can do that on your own time, not here.




What about the removal of thanks of MalayMishra's post Asim??How can you justify that??are we really 10 year olds now??and about mocking each other then then banning should start from some of the Elite members Asim..any way i know I wont be here much after this..its your forum and you do as you like..but its not the forum it is used to be..


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## Awesome

seiko said:


> What about the removal of thanks of MalayMishra's post Asim??How can you justify that??are we really 10 year olds now??and about mocking each other then then banning should start from some of the Elite members Asim..any way i know I wont be here much after this..its your forum and you do as you like..but its not the forum it is used to be..


Yes, dumbass arguments don't deserve point scoring through a mob intellect. Something that's offtopic, irrelevant and has been answered a million times will not get the time of the day.

For that matter, we have made it crystal time and again you will not get explanations from the management for our actions. *Compliance is mandatory*


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## Iggy

Asim Aquil said:


> I haven't called them the terrorist army or pigs and dogs. Raping and Baby killing is a serious problem with the Indian army and there are many convictions that have been given against them. The media is filled with accounts of Indian army engaged in raping.
> 
> From the constable to the Indian PM in New Delhi, all may not be responsible but they are all accountable even if one such incident takes place. That is the concept of Chain of Command and you're there in Kashmir by force and not on anyone's insistence. Militants are fighting because you're occupying them. Without your soldiers there they won't be fighting - no mosque would have to be used as a sanctuary, no grenades would have to be hurled.
> 
> So it all comes down to the Indian Army. Every death, every crime is India's fault.




Asim those people who engaged in raping were arrested by our forces ..not any international organisation asked us to take action against them..we took it as per the Indian law.and also about the freedom fighter?its not the Kashmiries only which are not fighting there..there are some Pakistanis and people from other parts of the world too who is coming their to fight in the name of religion ..So please dont tell us its all in the name of freedom fighting...some of the people who shot down in Kashmir is from my state also..there were Pakistanis too who among the dead in Kashmirs..heck the two most freedom fighting organisation was started by Pakistanis who has nothing to do with Kashmir or freedom fighting..

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## Iggy

Asim Aquil said:


> Yes, dumbass arguments don't deserve point scoring through a mob intellect. Something that's offtopic, irrelevant and has been answered a million times will not get the time of the day.
> For that matter, we have made it crystal time and again you will not get explanations from the management for our actions. *Compliance is mandatory*



So much for free and fair forum huh??as i said Its your forum and you can run as you like,I dont want to be part of this any more..bye.


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## doctor_who

I wont be surprized if this suicide bomber - bomb the whole mosque , while indian army tried to save him. 

may be army think tank need to look this side as well.

for some reason a muslim shooting people from inside the mosque and bunch of muslim supporting this act, seem like - islam is infect the relgion of violence and west is right.


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## Anonymous_Clown

I have never laughed so much as I did in the last couple of days, reading some comments here


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## Anonymous_Clown

BENNY said:


> Why is this thread not closed. The news is anyway of not of interest to many.
> 
> @ 2 mods who are in stealth mode..
> 
> please ban the Ips of these spammers without further delays.



LOL, you really think IP banning works? If someone really wants to troll, no one can prevent it. No one. The internet is like that.


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## Beacon

Asim, I dont like your comment on indian army as an army of (*(&)*&*

It is not expected from a moderator... it is nothing but flame bait....

The way this thread moderation been done is terrible...


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## Awesome

Beacon said:


> Asim, I dont like your comment on indian army as an army of (*(&)*&*
> 
> It is not expected from a moderator... it is nothing but flame bait....
> 
> The way this thread moderation been done is terrible...


Well nobody likes being called terrorists either. Perhaps you shouldn't have opened up this can of worms to begin with?


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## JanjaWeed

bloggers gone bonkers.. maybe there is a lesson needs to be learned here by PDF admins. when you take a biased stand & ban those who try to genuinly argue their point, you end up bringing the thread to disrepute. maybe if the mods take a slight bipartisan attitude towards all posters without looking at their country flags, we might not come to this point where a forum is brought down to such a low & do not give the frustrated lot a opertunity to go bizerk!!

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## Anonymous_Clown

StreetHawk said:


> bloggers gone bonkers.. maybe there is a lesson needs to be learned here by PDF admins. when you take a biased stand & ban those who try to genuinly argue their point, you end up bringing the thread to disrepute. maybe if the mods take a slight bipartisan attitude towards all posters without looking at their country flags, we might not come to this point where a forum is brought down to such a low & do not give the frustrated lot a opertunity to go bizerk!!



Actually I think the 'flag' ought to be removed altogether. It will go a long way.


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## JonAsad

StreetHawk said:


> bloggers gone bonkers.. maybe there is a lesson needs to be learned here by PDF admins. when you take a biased stand & ban those who try to genuinly argue their point, you end up bringing the thread to disrepute. maybe if the mods take a slight bipartisan attitude towards all posters without looking at their country flags, we might not come to this point where a forum is brought down to such a low & do not give the frustrated lot a opertunity to go bizerk!!



Instead of bullying, advice the indians, they should start following defence.pk rules.


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## Awesome

Cleaned up the mess

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## SpArK

Asim Aquil said:


> Cleaned up the mess



Great job Asim 

@ topic.. Congrats to the Indian forces in keeping the sanctity of the mosque and eliminating the terrorist .

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## PakiiZeeshan

R.I.P Brother.....


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## JonAsad

May his soul rest in peace.... Ameen

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## jha

Good Riddance..
Congrats to indian army for giving him the slow death in a mosque and not blasting the gates of mosque and killing him..

---------- Post added at 04:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:48 PM ----------

Good Riddance..
Congrats to indian army for giving him the slow death in a mosque and not blasting the gates of mosque and killing him..

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## S.U.R.B.

*Freedom demands blood.*







The enemies of Freedom do not argue; they shout and they shoot.


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## Hutchroy

Omar1984 said:


> *
> Provide links to support your claim.*



Why do you need Links when I have referred to the PAKISTAN CENSUS 1951!

Or do you not have faith in Pakistan Government Publications?

Also check the Bangladesh Census fro 1951 to 2001!


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## All-Green

Karthic Sri said:


> Hi,
> 
> First things first (the main theme) - Regarding genocide of the Hindus in Kashmir:
> 
> K P S Gill: The Kashmiri Pandits: An Ethnic Cleansing the World Forgot
> 
> WHITE PAPER ON KASHMIR -------Chapter 4 Genocide of Hindus-----ETHNIC CLEANSING
> 
> Aronite thinking- Ethnic Cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits
> 
> Take your time,read through these and get back to me whether this can or cannot be called "Ethinic cleansing/Genocide".
> 
> For further reading google "Ethinic cleansing in Kashmir" and you ll get dozens and dozens of poignant accounts.
> 
> *After all these do you expect any Indian to support these fundamentalists,who now cry of excesses, after all they have done*?
> 
> *The Kashmiri Muslims themselves chose the path of the gun way back in the 90s and did all kinds of intimidation on the minorities..Now what moral right do they have to protest when they are paid back in the same coin*
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Regarding Indian "invasion" of Junagadh,how many times it has been clarified that it was the father of ZAB who himself called in the Indian forces because Pakistan was "unable" to quell the unrest,before he fleed to Pakistan himself.
> 
> In today's world Might is right.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Thirdly regarding Extra judicial killings - of course when there is a counter insurgency going on against a "cross-border" patronised insurgency there will be collateral damage.
> 
> Tell me one insurgency in the world which did not suffer any collateral damage and all the casualties were strictly either the Sec. forces or the insurgents.
> 
> But the good thing is with insurgency at an alltime low accountability of the Sec forces is more and more implemented and soon it will be free of all this accusations.
> 
> And again for your argument that many doctors in India itself said it was **** - there are enough ppl in both our country who will do anything it takes to hog the lime-light,even if it goers against the ethics of their profession.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Lastly on the right to self-determination,the Kashmiris are not some god's chosen ppl who will get all they demand.Believe me if all the people of this world were to get a chance at this "Right to self-determination",you and me have to study Geography once more to re-learn the maps of the world.



Your claim of ethnic cleansing is just an extremely exaggerated and invalid claim the sole purpose of which is to simply malign the Muslim Population of Kashmir and justify whatever brutality they are subjected to.

However we may look at it, the fact remains that the Kashmir Valley was overwhelmingly Muslim more than a century ago and remains so today, this rules out any barbaric ethnic cleansing which has made Muslims into majority via carnage and bloody murder.
The population percentages have been fairly consistent with 1901.

Now regarding your following statement


> *The Kashmiri Muslims themselves chose the path of the gun way back in the 90s and did all kinds of intimidation on the minorities..Now what moral right do they have to protest when they are paid back in the same coin*



There is no better way than to authorize state brutality than by sending troops and police in with the indoctrination that the local population needs to paid in their own coin since they have always been doing wrong unto others and are traitors towards the state.
The Kashmiris are no traitors, they simply had no say in the accession of Kashmir to India and have become more and more isolated due to mishandling of the issue.

Regarding Junagadh, i do not care whoever it was that wrote a letter.
The matter of accession was to be decided by the ruler, yet here the ruler was Muslim and the Non Muslim population was cited as a reason for India to demand a plebiscite.
When the Ruler of Junagadh decided in favor of Pakistan the Indian State seized the land anyways.
So effectively the population mattered in the end and this has been proven by history since Kashmir is the one place where the Indian state has failed to appease the local population.
The reason is that there is an overwhelming Muslim majority here which has not reconciled with India but rather has become more and more alienated due to a troubled history with a lot of empty promises.

You talk of collateral but the concept of collateral has long been lost when Kashmir as a whole is seen as a nest of extremists.

The mindset here is that most Kashmiris are extremist, violent and terrorists or sympathetic to such , so it is lovely to pay them back in their own coin.
You have defined a whole people as the enemy because majority of them are not at all in love with India but rather have a strong dislike for the Indian state apparatus which has been wronging them on many accounts.
Here most of the population feels wronged by the Indian state, so it is not a case of rescuing the population from some insurgents but rather a standoff between the locals and the State apparatus.

Regarding the all time low insurgency resulting in more and more accountability of Troops...you could not be more wrong.
When you avidly deny occurrences of r ape and torture despite judicial inquiries stating otherwise, you absolutely negate the purpose of accountability and reconciliation with the locals.

The Kashmiris who protest are thrashed around since they are anti Indian Muslim extremists with an agenda.
Those whose daughter, wives etc are raped are called separatists with an agenda who are trying to entice population against the Indian state.
Those who raise arms are all called terrorists who are terrorizing the locals at behest of Pakistan, yet no light is shed on the Indian policy breeding hatred which is evident in the streets of Kashmir.
Who is the state protecting in Kashmir and from whom?

Only a fool would think that no Kashmiri youth would take up arms in wake of all the injustices and cover ups happening in the valley.
Overall this is called a Pakistani sponsored movement so that all punitive actions are justified without accepting the Kashmiri Population's Standoff with the State as the major problem in Kashmir.

When there is zero percent recognition of the genuine Kashmiri Muslim sentiments and instead tales are fabricated about their past brutality against non Muslims, there is no hope but for the rapes, killings and torture to continue unchecked and be swept under the carpet.


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## Frankenstein

gubbi said:


> So being a Kashmiri pundit (the original instigators of Kashmiri 'struggle'), Matoo asked valid questions wanting to know what can Pakistan offer better than what India is presently doing.



India is presently doing is killing, torching, raping. We can provide them freedom, what else do they want more??



> Answer - Nothing. Zilch!



You know jack squat, until and unless you can time travel


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## Mirage2000

mattoo said:


> 1. What do you intend to do about the non-muslim Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists who will come with the land? This is nearly 40&#37; of the population of the state, about 4 million people.


Nothing in particular they will be citizens of Pakistan and will be treated as such.


mattoo said:


> They will demand equal rights under the constitution. How prepared are you to secularize Pakistan to accommodate these people and grant them first class citizenship?


I support secularism and I do think Pakistan whenever comes to a powerful position to take IOK back will be a secular country,or even if it remains Islamic the constitutional equality will be there. 



mattoo said:


> 2. If you decide to ask non-muslims to leave permanently, what kind of compensation are you prepared to give? My family, for example, has owned properties in Baramulla and Anantnag for countless generations. I cannot even contemplate in a rational mind that someone would ask me to leave my own house.


 No body will ask non muslims to leave thats for sure.They will just become Citizens of Pakistan.


mattoo said:


> 3. What kind of economic and social package will be put together for the new acquisition? Can you offer more economic/social benefits than India? If so, how?


What special package is India offering? nothing special than laws to allow your Army to carry out killings of Kashmiries without any fear.

They will have everything that other Pakistanis are having.Though the peace(that IOK doesn't has) will be there,GoP will do think of putting money and developing Kashmir's tourism and other Industries.


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## Irfan Baloch

Karthic Sri said:


> By giving into the demands of the Kashmiri Muslims now ,will it not set a bad precedent for the future wherein you can achieve your goals not by peaceful,democratic means,but by intimidation at the point of the gun.



I know this is the biggest dilemma for India. Giving in to the demands of the Kashmiris (peaceful or violent) would set a wrong precedent be it the Sikh Khalistan movement (now effectively crushed) Tamils or Naxils etc.

The point about Kashmir is that there was a foul play involved by the departing British and hence India got the land access to Kashmir and the occupation for right or wrong reasons. India is not alone about safeguarding its integrity. Pakistan had the same sentiments when it lost its eastern wing but we had to accept the reality. The Bengalis didnt want anything to do with us whether the obnoxious governments in the west liked it or not. The will of the people prevailed in the end.

Kashmir is disputed from the day British empire left it intentionally unresolved. There will have to be a middle ground if we the people of the subcontinent have to move forward there will be some middle ground some give and take. Its the give which is the tricky part. A strong leadership in both sides that decides a final solution that keeps the wishes of the people of Kashmir in mind and main prieority.

Otherwise we will be condemned to stay in this confrontation left by British for coming future. 
Maybe off topic something really irks me I hope you or someone else picks it up. This English race is strange (to put it mildly) wherever they set foot or whenever they left from somewhere. They have left a conflict for the people of that place 
Be it Kashmir, the making of Israeli state are the prime examples. The division of Arabian Peninsula re Kurds vs. Iraq/ Iran/ Turkey. The Cyprus issue (Greece Vs Turkey). The Durand line (Pak Afghan border issue). think of a Place where British set foot and 9 out of 10 times you will find a conflict.

In all these cases Kashmir and Palestine are the prime conflicts that have taken the whole region a hostage. Can we be smart enough to solve the conflict? I wonder and I pray

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## sensenreason

Mirage2000 said:


> Nothing in particular they will be citizens of Pakistan and will be treated as such.
> 
> I support secularism and I do think Pakistan whenever comes to a powerful position to take IOK back will be a secular country,or even if it remains Islamic the constitutional equality will be there.
> 
> No body will ask non muslims to leave thats for sure.They will just become Citizens of Pakistan.
> 
> What special package is India offering? nothing special than laws to allow your Army to carry out killings of Kashmiries without any fear.
> 
> *They will have everything that other Pakistanis are having.Though the peace(that IOK doesn't has) will be there,GoP will do think of putting money and developing Kashmir's tourism and other Industries.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> This is seriously funny. Pakistan Occupied Kashmir is not even free and you talk of putting money in Kashmir. So you mean to say the Pashtuns, Balochs, Muhajirs and Bengalis were provided equal treatment??? While India has issues you cannot pretend that you treat other ethnic groups well. If you were to discuss it to win brownie points its a different matter. Differences with East Pakistan were well documented and so are the isssues in Sindh & Balochistan.
> 
> The fact is Pakistan is still in the clucthes of the Feudal elite of punjab. Its your choice to deny it but I personally think Kashmiris have got a better deal in India than they ever will in Pakistan.


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## mattoo

This thread was opened for a special reason by me. For me, the Kashmir issue is not something distant and remote happening to a third person. It's real and personal and something that affects me in a direct sense.

The question I posed to Pakistanis was around the treatment of non-muslims. Apart from superficial and hollow promises of fair treatment, I think no Pakistani has seriously considered what it means to suddenly have 2 million non-Sunnis and 4 million non-muslims added to the population.

There is a constitutional problem in Pakistan, i.e. the constitution explicitly states that the leadership of the country MUST be exclusively muslim and continues on to define what that type of muslim must be. The President and Prime Minister cannot be anything other than muslim. So where is the question of equality or secularism?

If the state becomes secular, then the question will arise as to what is the difference between us and India if we are both secular? Essentially, by declaring an Islamic republic, they have painted themselves into a corner.


There are many laws, some of which are Islamic, as mandated by the constitution that are discriminatory to minorities. No plans exist to change these, not to mention rustling up the public support for such change.

What about the habits and culture of these non-muslims? They may like to dress "unislamically" or for that matter drink (prohibited) or celebrate festivals in public. Social issues exist.

The other facets of accession to Pakistan would involve the economic aspect. The Indian government spends on jobs, economic growth, infrastructure, water and energy resources, tourism, trade and investment, and connectivity with outside world. The total amounts spent so far have been close to two-quarters of a billion dollars. Pakistan has no resources for itself, where will it provide for the newcomers?

All the "mai muslim tu muslim" bhaichara will last for 2 days. People still need jobs, food, water, security etc.

My point is that Pakistanis only have the religion card. That's it. No social plan, no legislative plan, no constitutional plan, no economic plan and no monies to fund and structure these.

If you were serious about buying a new sofa for your house, you will at least check if you can afford it and where is the space to fit it in your living room. How is it that there is a demand for Kashmir but no plan beyond the sloganeering?


To my fellow Indians -

Think of driving at night on a lonely road with your wife/gf. Suddenly a dog starts chasing the car and barking loudly. Your wife/gf is tense about the snarling dog. But consider this - you stop the car. Now the dog is confused. His plan was to bark loudly and chase the car. Beyond that, he has no real plans to drive your car. He simply cannot because he is not capable. His fun comes from chasing the car. That's it.

My point is that essentially you are getting tense about nothing.

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## Bhairava

mattoo said:


> This thread was opened for a special reason by me. For me, the Kashmir issue is not something distant and remote happening to a third person. It's real and personal and something that affects me in a direct sense.
> 
> The question I posed to Pakistanis was around the treatment of non-muslims. Apart from superficial and hollow promises of fair treatment, I think no Pakistani has seriously considered what it means to suddenly have 2 million non-Sunnis and 4 million non-muslims added to the population.
> 
> There is a constitutional problem in Pakistan, i.e. the constitution explicitly states that the leadership of the country MUST be exclusively muslim and continues on to define what that type of muslim must be. The President and Prime Minister cannot be anything other than muslim. So where is the question of equality or secularism?
> 
> If the state becomes secular, then the question will arise as to what is the difference between us and India if we are both secular? Essentially, by declaring an Islamic republic, they have painted themselves into a corner.
> 
> 
> There are many laws, some of which are Islamic, as mandated by the constitution that are discriminatory to minorities. No plans exist to change these, not to mention rustling up the public support for such change.
> 
> What about the habits and culture of these non-muslims? They may like to dress "unislamically" or for that matter drink (prohibited) or celebrate festivals in public. Social issues exist.
> 
> The other facets of accession to Pakistan would involve the economic aspect. The Indian government spends on jobs, economic growth, infrastructure, water and energy resources, tourism, trade and investment, and connectivity with outside world. The total amounts spent so far have been close to two-quarters of a billion dollars. Pakistan has no resources for itself, where will it provide for the newcomers?
> 
> All the "mai muslim tu muslim" bhaichara will last for 2 days. People still need jobs, food, water, security etc.
> 
> My point is that Pakistanis only have the religion card. That's it. No social plan, no legislative plan, no constitutional plan, no economic plan and no monies to fund and structure these.
> 
> If you were serious about buying a new sofa for your house, you will at least check if you can afford it and where is the space to fit it in your living room. How is it that there is a demand for Kashmir but no plan beyond the sloganeering?
> 
> 
> To my fellow Indians -
> 
> Think of driving at night on a lonely road with your wife/gf. Suddenly a dog starts chasing the car and barking loudly. Your wife/gf is tense about the snarling dog. But consider this - you stop the car. Now the dog is confused. His plan was to bark loudly and chase the car. Beyond that, he has no real plans to drive your car. He simply cannot because he is not capable. His fun comes from chasing the car. That's it.
> 
> My point is that essentially you are getting tense about nothing.


*
You just hit the bull's eye sir.*


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## dabong1

dezi said:


> I am trying to give an estimate of the people in India who are a stakeholder of JnK in India, those who own property and land in the state. The immigrants to P0K and Pandits in Pakistan do not hold properties in JnK. Considering them the percentage will definitely be closer to 40% as @mattoo suggested.



My family came from IOK and we still have land there and the papers to go with like the majority of kashmiri refugees in AJK.....the same is probaly true of kashmiri refugees in india.

I think we should also bring in all the kashmiri refugees worldwide.


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## parasite

I hope this link is also useful to put things in perspective....

Link--> 'Cross-border terror as substantive as J&K issue' - Rediff.com India News



> India [ Images ] on Tuesday said terrorism arising out of the sub-conventional conflict directed by Pakistan against it for over two decades cannot be ignored and was as substantive an issue as Jammu and Kashmir [ Images ].
> Outlining India's approach to ties with Pakistan, Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao [ Images ] said advocacy of an incremental, graduated and forward-looking approach to address the trust deficit was by no means an attempt to avoid tackling the substantive differences that trouble the bilateral relations.
> 
> "While there can be no guarantees for success, such an approach seeks to build first on what is achievable and simultaneously to also address the more intractable issues in a sustained manner," Rao said in her address at a symposium in New Delhi [ Images ] on 'The Future of India-Pakistan Relations'.
> 
> "The issue of terrorism arising out of the sub-conventional conflict directed by Pakistan against India for over two decades now, cannot be ignored either. It is as substantive an issue as the issue of Jammu and Kashmir, or the issue of Siachen glacier," she added.
> 
> Noting that a host of issues continue to bedevil India-Pakistan relations and cast long shadows on bilateral ties, she advocated "imaginative and creative" approaches to tackle issues of security, confidence-building.
> 
> In this context, she underlined the need for economic linkages and enhanced people-to-people contacts as they seek to pave the way for a serious and comprehensive dialogue and could build the sinews of a more "durable and lasting" peace, so that the dawn of a new era does not remain a chimera.
> 
> Rao asserted that it was incumbent on each and every one to persevere with patience and dedication so that future generations do not remain hostage to a poison-ridden legacy of political misunderstandings and geopolitical antagonisms.
> 
> She also pointed out that India's efforts to bridge the trust deficit and pave the way for a serious and comprehensive dialogue were thwarted by a level of overreach by Pakistan that complicated the resumption of a sustained dialogue process. "However, we do not view this as a setback in our quest for peace as both sides appear to be committed to ensuring that the spirit of Thimphu is not lost. The foreign minister of Pakistan Shah Mehmood Qureshi has accepted our invitation to visit India, dates for which will be decided through diplomatic channels," Rao said.
> 
> "In the India-Pakistan discourse, we have literally eaten bitterness for the last 60 years and given the complexities of our ties, the task of improvement in ties is also Sisyphean," she added,
> 
> At the same time Rao wondered what explains the warm and spontaneous applause of thousands of spectators at the Jawaharlal Nehru [ Images ] Stadium on October 3 this year when the Pakistani contingent entered the stadium for the opening ceremony of the Commonwealth Games [ Images ] in New Delhi.
> 
> "On one hand there is the push of realism that compels us to see the relationship with Pakistan as hobbled by its many limitations. While on the other hand, there is the pull of emotion, of sentiment, of the muffled footsteps of shared history that beat in our blood, that generates a response that is giving and generous."
> 
> According to Rao, predicting the course of one of the most complex and unpredictable relationships in the modern era was a task that most intrepid astrologers would hesitate to undertake but asserted that the choices for the future are stark and real. "Either we learn to live together in peace and harmony or we risk imparting to future generations our differences and prejudices that will continue to divide us rather than unite us and indeed widen the gulf between us," she said.
> 
> Given the complexities of the relationship and the tortured path that the two countries have traversed till now, it is easy to be cynical and predict a gloomy future, she said.
> 
> "However, as an eternal optimist and someone who believes in the power of people to shape their destiny, I feel it is incumbent on all of us to strive and achieve a peaceful and mutually reinforcing relationship that will unlock the true potential of more than a billion people for their betterment," Rao concluded.


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## foxbat

Looks like this incident created some shaheeds in defence.pk too.. 

Lets lighten up folks..


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## PAKFA

jha said:


> Good Riddance..
> Congrats to indian army for giving him the slow death in a mosque and not blasting the gates of mosque and killing him..
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:48 PM ----------
> 
> Good Riddance..
> Congrats to indian army for giving him the slow death in a mosque and not blasting the gates of mosque and killing him..


These kind of terrorist deserve a barbaric death but kido to Indian army which has face of humanity and giving him consolidated death.


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## CurryChaawal

One terrorist less,but still many to be finished.
Good going.
Lets clear them out.


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## Veeru

JonAsad said:


> May his soul rest in peace.... Ameen



So ur praying for a terrorist???



PakiiZeeshan said:


> R.I.P Brother.....



A terriorist is ur brother??



Areesh said:


> Salute to the brave warrior.



How can u people salute to a terrorist?? do u do it for baguti or baitullah mehsud also??

Always remember if you supports a terrorist one day the same terrorist will target you people.

So no need to make a terrorist a hero.

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## PAKFA

Veeru said:


> So ur praying for a terrorist???
> 
> 
> 
> A terriorist is ur brother??
> 
> 
> 
> How can u people salute to a terrorist?? do u do it for baguti or baitullah mehsud also??
> 
> Always remember if you supports a terrorist one day the same terrorist will target you people.
> 
> So no need to make a terrorist a hero.



They are facing the same consequence even worse but bad part is still not learning from it. 'JO dusro ke liye aag jalate hai , Aag unko hatho ko bhi nahi bakshati '


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## RollingStones

Irfan Baloch said:


> I know this is the biggest dilemma for India. Giving in to the demands of the Kashmiris (peaceful or violent) would set a wrong precedent be it the Sikh Khalistan movement (now effectively crushed) Tamils or Naxils etc.
> 
> The point about Kashmir is that there was a foul play involved by the departing British and hence India got the land access to Kashmir and the occupation for right or wrong reasons. India is not alone about safeguarding its integrity. Pakistan had the same sentiments when it lost its eastern wing but we had to accept the reality. The Bengalis didnt want anything to do with us whether the obnoxious governments in the west liked it or not. The will of the people prevailed in the end.
> 
> Kashmir is disputed from the day British empire left it intentionally unresolved. There will have to be a middle ground if we the people of the subcontinent have to move forward there will be some middle ground some give and take. Its the give which is the tricky part. A strong leadership in both sides that decides a final solution that keeps the wishes of the people of Kashmir in mind and main prieority.
> 
> Otherwise we will be condemned to stay in this confrontation left by British for coming future.
> Maybe off topic something really irks me I hope you or someone else picks it up. This English race is strange (to put it mildly) wherever they set foot or whenever they left from somewhere. They have left a conflict for the people of that place
> Be it Kashmir, the making of Israeli state are the prime examples. The division of Arabian Peninsula re Kurds vs. Iraq/ Iran/ Turkey. The Cyprus issue (Greece Vs Turkey). The Durand line (Pak Afghan border issue). think of a Place where British set foot and 9 out of 10 times you will find a conflict.
> 
> In all these cases Kashmir and Palestine are the prime conflicts that have taken the whole region a hostage. Can we be smart enough to solve the conflict? I wonder and I pray



I still dont get the Kashmir problem. If this is about hoisting the Kashmir flag and governing themselves, why dont they just do it? If someone stops them, then they have all the right to secede. What will a small completely independent district achieve, just for independence sake? To me Kashmir is still an issue of some leaders who want to govern the area (for whatever reasons) not getting the chance to do so. Its got nothing to do with religion or economic prosperity. And it absolutely has nothing to do with intelligent and smart thinking that being part of a larger Union is the way to go for getting the best of resources and best of lifestyle. For instance, Indian rupee is 2 times pakistani rupee. If Kashmiris were to shift over to pakistan, they would have to pay 2 times for every economic resource they had accessible to from within India. And they would have to wait possibly two or three times longer for infrastructure to reach them, than within India which can fund them faster. The economic implications will push Kashmir district to a backwater, which will have gross inequities with its much larger neighbor, as Kashmir alone does not have scale to implement large projects, nor official machinery to win large international loans and grants, or even establishing its international rights. Even if somehow Kashmiris chose to be independent, they need to choose an SAR status within India, much like HK or Macau. Even then, HK, Macau and Taiwan have incredible entrepreneurship and industries that Kashmiris cannot hope to achieve. I am sorry I do NOT believe in the Kashmiri story.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

RollingStones said:


> I am sorry I do NOT believe in the Kashmiri story.



Well! Therein lies the problem; and that's what sets us worlds apart.

It could just be that indian are in denial. Could also just be blind selectiveness about the reality to accept 

either way, realities on the ground will always speak louder than numbers, or new delhi face-saving measures


indians do themselves (and occupied Kashmiris) a huge disservice when they bring up economics into this issue; one could argue that the French colonialism would have afforded better opportunities for Algeria (remember Operation Esperance?)

We all know that the economically & militarily superior French, despite cash grants, distribution of land ownership and other so-called "measures" would prove quite futile

The struggle and armed resistance against the French was a bloody one; more so even than that of Kashmiris against the indian occupiers over the past 6 decades. Mass graves, mass killings, ****, disappearances were the reality in both cases.

In one case, the Algerians sacrificed so much to get their independence. In the second case, said result is still in the works. It will be realized though, there is little doubt in my mind.


the storm has been brewing for quite some time now. This isn't a war of economics, caste-war, or war of civilization. It is a war between occupied peoples and their occupier --who is known to have committed vast human rights violations and iron-fist tactics against the former.

The (formerly known) Soviets were unable to do it in Afghanistan. The (formerly dubbed) West Pakistanis were unable to do in today's Bangladesh (exacerbated by a foreign terrorist movement supported by the enemy); and I sure don't believe that the hindustanys would be able to do it in Kashmir.



best path is a saner one; prepare yourselves on HOW to deal with a Kashmir that is not under hindustany administrative (military) rule.

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## RollingStones

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Well! Therein lies the problem; and that's what sets us worlds apart.
> 
> It could just be that indian are in denial. Could also just be blind selectiveness about the reality to accept
> 
> either way, realities on the ground will always speak louder than numbers, or new delhi face-saving measures
> 
> 
> indians do themselves (and occupied Kashmiris) a huge disservice when they bring up economics into this issue; one could argue that the French colonialism would have afforded better opportunities for Algeria (remember Operation Esperance?)
> 
> We all know that the economically & militarily superior French, despite cash grants, distribution of land ownership and other so-called "measures" would prove quite futile
> 
> The struggle and armed resistance against the French was a bloody one; more so even than that of Kashmiris against the indian occupiers over the past 6 decades. Mass graves, mass killings, ****, disappearances were the reality in both cases.
> 
> In one case, the Algerians sacrificed so much to get their independence. In the second case, said result is still in the works. It will be realized though, there is little doubt in my mind.
> 
> 
> the storm has been brewing for quite some time now. This isn't a war of economics, caste-war, or war of civilization. It is a war between occupied peoples and their occupier --who is known to have committed vast human rights violations and iron-fist tactics against the former.
> 
> The (formerly known) Soviets were unable to do it in Afghanistan. The (formerly dubbed) West Pakistanis were unable to do in today's Bangladesh (exacerbated by a foreign terrorist movement supported by the enemy); and I sure don't believe that the hindustanys would be able to do it in Kashmir.
> 
> 
> 
> best path is a saner one; prepare yourselves on HOW to deal with a Kashmir that is not under hindustany administrative (military) rule.



That is the problem. You dont get it, do you? We in America do NOT believe that Indians are oppressors of Kashmiris. We think that Pakistan is the bad country here. And, we dont know what Kashmir is all about. Americans think that India is a democratic place where all religions live harmoniously. I dont know if this is true or not. But I personally find it hard to believe that India will stay merged as an entity, if there were grave human rights violations as you call them. I am not sure why we have to choose the France versus Algiers example. I doubt the French would have wanted Algiers to be part of France. Colonial conquests were for a completely different reason compared to the agglomerations existing today. Today's India is not a colonial agglomeration but a country. They dont hold onto land just because they want to exploit its resources and dont care two hoots about the people. I means you cannot convince the rest of the world that India is a colonial power in Kashmir. No credible evidence exists to suggest that. Unfortunately, Pakistan is a biased party in this case and we wouldnt listen to them. You need to get independent countries to endorse the claim of kashmiris and then present it over here and other developed countries - assuming you want our vote. The problem you face is, in that process, you have to get us to agree that India is an oppressive democracy by design (it maybe one because it is defunct or corrupt but not by design). The other huge problem you face is the success of Indians in America. You have very little chance of getting people to agree to the demonic Indian regime, when there are so many successful stories about Indians in America. Indians in America are fairly independent people, I'd think. I have several Indian friends, I should know. They dont toe their motherland's line just like that. But the problem is none of them think that India is an oppressive government by design/intent/systematic policies and the voices of such successful people count a lot. Bottom line: Kashmiris cannot win freedom by portraying the Indian government as an oppressor. There are no takers for that line. They have to do something else. What that something else is, I wouldnt know. Else, kashmir will go the Tibet way. No one cares anymore.


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## bandit

Pakistan is a biased party as well as equally bad in human rights abuses in Kashmir as India if not worse. This is especially important considering the fact that freedom as Pak govt defines is limited to accession to Pakistan. How does that make the life of an ordinary Kashmiri better is anybody's guess. The deceptively named Free Kashmir is totally under Isalamabads rule with large scale suppression of pro freedom elements, and unlike India, Pakistan has resorted to ethnic recomposition by allowing Pakistanis to settle in Kashmir and curb any chances of a freedom movement there.
The protests occuring in the valley were pro-freedom and against Indian govt, but it does not endorse the Pakistani position that Kashmiris are willing to join Pakistan rather than India.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

RollingStones said:


> That is the problem. You dont get it, do you? We in America do NOT believe that Indians are oppressors of Kashmiris



Given that the standard American (based on polls and interviews, not my own opinion) can't even point some countries on the map, I dont think the view of the Americans really matters too much --except maybe the politicians, political analysts, etc. who vary in their views on the conflict.

the average Kashmiri will probably disagree with you or the people you are referring to, I think their opinion matters the most (more than Pakistani or indian)




> We think that Pakistan is the bad country here.





we know





> And, we dont know what Kashmir is all about.



So you don't think india is the oppressor; you think "Pakistan is bad"; but when push comes to shove, now you are saying you don't know what Kashmir is "all about" 




> if there were grave human rights violations as you call them. I am not sure why we have to choose the France versus Algiers example. I doubt the French would have wanted Algiers to be part of France. Colonial conquests were for a completely different reason compared to the agglomerations existing today.



try to look at the bigger picture and your confusion would be allayed




> Today's India is not a colonial agglomeration but a country. They dont hold onto land just because they want to exploit its resources *and dont care two hoots about the people*.



precisely...!




> I means you cannot convince the rest of the world that India is a colonial power in Kashmir.



mass majority of Kashmiris view it as an occupier




> Unfortunately, Pakistan is a biased party in this case and we wouldnt listen to them. You need to get independent countries to endorse the claim of kashmiris and then present it over here and other developed countries - assuming you want our vote.



that's your view, and that's fine. Fact of the matter is, Kashmir in its entirety is disputed territory and shall be treated thusly



> The problem you face is, in that process, you have to get us to agree that India is an oppressive democracy by design (it maybe one because it is defunct or corrupt but not by design). The other huge problem you face is the success of Indians in America.



there are succesful indians, Pakistanis, Norwegians and Ugandans around the world.....what's your point? 

What does it have to do with the Kashmir conflict, which I already outlined to you was NOT a conflict of economic interests per se




> You have very little chance of getting people to agree to the demonic Indian regime, when there are so many successful stories about Indians in America. Indians in America are fairly independent people, I'd think. I have several Indian friends, I should know. They dont toe their motherland's line just like that. But the problem is none of them think that India is an oppressive government by design/intent/systematic policies and the voices of such successful people count a lot.



I have no idea where you're going with this


subject is Kashmir and Kashmiris, you're bringing up indians in the U.S.




> Bottom line: Kashmiris cannot win freedom by portraying the Indian government as an oppressor. There are no takers for that line. They have to do something else. What that something else is, I wouldnt know



no need for pointing fingers; a referendum held by a neutral body to determine the fate of Kashmiris seems warranted....

the indians will confidentally (blindly) call it an integral part of india while the masses hold mass demonstrations against them (in Azad Kashmir as well).

they label indian independence day a ''black day'' every year; some have even gone to the extent of hanging the Pakistani flag in indian occupied territories (more trivial, but symbolically noteworthy)

but despite all this, they do dogmatically cling to that false notion; so given this ''confidence'' --why not just pave way for referendum based on status quo?

the indians are afraid, I think.



> Else, kashmir will go the Tibet way. No one cares anymore.



we do.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

bandit said:


> Pakistan is a biased party as well as equally bad in human rights abuses in Kahmir as India if not worse. This is especially important considering the fact that freedom as Pak govt defines is limited to accession to Pakistan. How does that make the life of an ordinary Kashmiri better is anybody's guess. The deceptively named Free Kashmir is totally under Isalamabads rule with large scale suppression of pro freedom elements, and unlike India, Pakistan has resorted to ethnic recomposition by allowing Pakistanis to settle in Kashmir and curb any chances of a freedom movement there.
> The protests occuring in the valley were pro-freedom and against Indian govt, but it does not endorse the Pakistani position that Kashmiris are willing to join Pakistan rather than India.





you seem quite confused....re-familiarize yourself with Pakistani Nation's official standpoint

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## DESERT FIGHTER

bandit said:


> *Pakistan is a biased party as well as equally bad in human rights abuses in Kahmir as India if not worse*. This is especially important considering the fact that freedom as Pak govt defines is limited to accession to Pakistan. How does that make the life of an ordinary Kashmiri better is anybody's guess. The deceptively named Free Kashmir is totally under Isalamabads rule with large scale suppression of pro freedom elements, and unlike India, Pakistan has resorted to ethnic recomposition by allowing Pakistanis to settle in Kashmir and curb any chances of a freedom movement there.
> The protests occuring in the valley were pro-freedom and against Indian govt, but it does not endorse the Pakistani position that Kashmiris are willing to join Pakistan rather than India.



Steals the show!

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## bandit

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> you seem quite confused....re-familiarize yourself with Pakistani Nation's official standpoint



It is sad to know that a foreigner has to counsel you on your country's stand. Pakistan govt stand is that freedom from India can only be interpreted as accession to Pakistan as it has agreed to UN resolution regarding this. From the horse's mouth-



> WHEREAS the future status of the State of Jammu and Kashmir is yet to be determined in accordance with the freely expressed will of the people of the State through the democratic method of free and fair plebiscite under the auspices of the United Nations as envisaged in the UNCIP Resolutions adopted from time to time;
> http://www.ajk.gov.pk/images/stories/AJK_Interim_Constitution_Act_1974.pdf



So all that supposed talk and rhetoric carried by Pakistanis here and elsewhere is what it seems like after reading through the above-_ load of crap._




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Steals the show!



I guess this does!!!




> *The appropriation of land in the Northern Areas by non-Kashmiri migrants from elsewhere in Pakistan, with the tacit encouragement of the federal government and army, has led to dwindling economic opportunities for the local population and an increase in sectarian tension between the majority Shia Muslims and a growing number of Sunnis. Ethnic violence first erupted in 1988, with riots in Gilgit that killed at least 150 people,* and it continues to be a concern. According to the International Crisis Group (ICG),* between June 2004 and October 2005 as many as 100 people died in sectarian violence *that broke out over a government decision to introduce a new educational curriculum.



http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/docid/487ca21a2a.html [accessed 19 October 2010] 
Freedom in the World 2008 - Kashmir [Pakistan]
Capital: N/A
Population: 5,000,000



> According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP), Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) operates throughout Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas and* engages in extensive surveillance (particularly of proindependence groups and the press), as well as arbitrary arrests and detentions*. In some instances, those detained* by the ISI, the police, or the security forces are tortured, and several cases of death in custody have been reported. Impunity for acts of torture and other mistreatment of civilians by the military and intelligence services remains the norm. *The territory also continues to be governed by the colonial-era Frontier Crimes Regulations, *under which residents are required to report to local police stations once a month.[/*


http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/...p;searchin=title&amp;display=10&amp;sort=date

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## DESERT FIGHTER

rolling stone the indian.


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## RollingStones

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Given that the standard American (based on polls and interviews, not my own opinion) can't even point some countries on the map, I dont think the view of the Americans really matters too much --except maybe the politicians, political analysts, etc. who vary in their views on the conflict.
> 
> the average Kashmiri will probably disagree with you or the people you are referring to, I think their opinion matters the most (more than Pakistani or indian)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> we know
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you don't think india is the oppressor; you think "Pakistan is bad"; but when push comes to shove, now you are saying you don't know what Kashmir is "all about"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> try to look at the bigger picture and your confusion would be allayed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> precisely...!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mass majority of Kashmiris view it as an occupier
> 
> 
> 
> 
> that's your view, and that's fine. Fact of the matter is, Kashmir in its entirety is disputed territory and shall be treated thusly
> 
> 
> 
> there are succesful indians, Pakistanis, Norwegians and Ugandans around the world.....what's your point?
> 
> What does it have to do with the Kashmir conflict, which I already outlined to you was NOT a conflict of economic interests per se
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea where you're going with this
> 
> 
> subject is Kashmir and Kashmiris, you're bringing up indians in the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no need for pointing fingers; a referendum held by a neutral body to determine the fate of Kashmiris seems warranted....
> 
> the indians will confidentally (blindly) call it an integral part of india while the masses hold mass demonstrations against them (in Azad Kashmir as well).
> 
> they label indian independence day a ''black day'' every year; some have even gone to the extent of hanging the Pakistani flag in indian occupied territories (more trivial, but symbolically noteworthy)
> 
> but despite all this, they do dogmatically cling to that false notion; so given this ''confidence'' --why not just pave way for referendum based on status quo?
> 
> the indians are afraid, I think.
> 
> 
> 
> we do.



How are they going to get this "referendum" done? Who have the Kashmiris convinced so far to hold referendum? Even the Tibetans with all their PR and representations in the UN could not get a referendum. I doubt if the Kashmiris would get it. It is simple. Why arent the US based Kashmiris publicizing this issue and they could even do a mock referendum (perhaps over the Internet) and publish it here? A Facebook app could be started where Kashmiris with others can do a mock referendum? Or get some prominent intelligentsia in Kashmir to speak about independence. So many ways to get the show on the road, and that too cheaply. A few twitters caused quite a flutter from Iran. Why not in Kashmir? If there's substance, it will show and there are many ways. Listen, do something that will get a concrete decision one way or the other or leave the people to prosper. It is ridiculous to be asking for something for 60+ years and doing nothing about it.


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## RollingStones

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> rolling stone the indian.



yeah, I've been called that a few times now. I think I get how some Pakistanis do things. Perhaps talking to more unbiased parties would help, instead of squabbling between yourselves?

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Tibet is not asking for seccession from China; I believe they are asking for autonomy

Kashmiris are asking for self-determination


to compare Kashmir to Tibet is beyond ABSURD. Tibet isn't disputed territory. Kashmir is.


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## StingRoy

dabong1 said:


> My family came from IOK and we still have land there and the papers to go with like the majority of kashmiri refugees in AJK.....the same is probaly true of kashmiri refugees in india.
> 
> I think we should also bring in all the kashmiri refugees worldwide.


The point of discussion was about how to deal with the non-muslims in case they dont want to join Pakistan (however hypothetical the topic of discussion maybe). If you do have land in Kashmir, then it is good for you right... why do we have to factor that in the 40% ratio.


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## StingRoy

mattoo said:


> To my fellow Indians -
> 
> Think of driving at night on a lonely road with your wife/gf. Suddenly a dog starts chasing the car and barking loudly. Your wife/gf is tense about the snarling dog. But consider this - you stop the car. Now the dog is confused. His plan was to bark loudly and chase the car. Beyond that, he has no real plans to drive your car. He simply cannot because he is not capable. His fun comes from chasing the car. That's it.



Thats an excellent analogy you gave here @mattoo.


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## hembo

*After two decades, Muslim officer to command Srinagar-based 15 Corps*
Wed, Oct 20 05:33 AM

After a two-decade gap that saw insurgency at its peak in Jammu and Kashmir, a Muslim officer is set to command the Srinagar-based 15 Corps that is the nerve centre of the fight against militancy in the state. Lt Gen Syed Ata Hasnain, who is presently commanding the Bhopal-based 21 Corps, is set to take over as the 15 Corps Commander by the end of this year after the incumbent Lt Gen N C Marwah moves on to his next posting.

Lt Gen Hasnain, who has served several stints in the Valley including a recent one as the Divisional Commander at Baramulla, is also the senior-most serving Muslim officer of the Indian Army. The officer, who is known for his academic leanings in military circles, is the only serving Lt Gen in Army ranks belonging to the minority community and is a second generation Army officer.

Hasnain will be the first Muslim officer to command the 15 Corps after Lt Gen M K Zaki who was in charge of the crucial command from 1989-91. Lt Gen Zaki was also later appointed as the advisor to the Jammu and Kashmir government from 1991 to '93.

Well regarded as an outstanding officer, Hasnain has had several stints in Kashmir and has spent a bulk of his over three decades of service in the state. More recently in 2008, the officer was instrumental in maintaining the peace in Baramulla that was badly affected when Jammu and Kashmir was struck by violence over the Amarnath row.

Then a Maj Gen commanding the Baramulla based 'Dagger' Division, Hasnain used the concept of what he described as 'soft power' to defuse tension by reaching out to the masses. In his several talks with local leaders, the officer gave his personal example as a Muslim in the Indian Army to drive home the point that the minority community can do well by joining the mainstream.

Besides tackling operational hurdles, the officer has also handled controversies in the Valley and is known to employ a firm hand against malpractices. As a Brigadier in 2004 when cross-border firing was at its peak, the officer was commanding the 12 Brigade that guards the Line of Control at Uri when he conducted a court martial against a Major who was accused of **** and molestation in the infamous Handwara case. The officer, Major Rehman Hussain of the Rashtriya Rifles, was found guilty and was ordered to be dismissed from the Army.


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## Kinetic

Does it matters whether the commander is Hindu or Muslim? 

NO.

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## MYSTIC

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Tibet is not asking for seccession from China; I believe they are asking for autonomy
> 
> Kashmiris are asking for self-determination
> 
> 
> to compare Kashmir to Tibet is beyond ABSURD. Tibet isn't disputed territory. Kashmir is.



China is unwilling to give Tibet autonomy while India you are asking India to give freedom to Kashmir. Hypocrisy don't you think. Or is it that Tibetans are non-muslim and therefore you don't really care.

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

@ Mystic

Who is saying that we are fans of Chinese Human Rights Records?

The Kashmiri insurgency will come to end when Pakistan takes over all of India... This is now most certain more so than ever before...

Our army is more than capable of doing this... We just have to sort out our political mess before such a final show down with India...


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## Anonymous_Clown

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> @ Mystic
> 
> Who is saying that we are fans of Chinese Human Rights Records?
> 
> The Kashmiri insurgency will come to end when *Pakistan takes over all of India*... This is now most certain more so than ever before...
> 
> *Our army is more than capable of doing this*... We just have to sort out our political mess before such a final show down with India...



Are you Zaid Hamid by any chance? When I read such cocksure comments, I don't know whether to laugh, get irritated or just ignore! I end up feeling astounded. 

You have been trying to pick a fight with a country which is roughly 6 times more powerful that you in almost every aspect. Have you not learnt your lessons from the 20th century? You were the ones who proudly proclaimed, "1 Pakistani=10 Indians", remember? Even after getting that myth shattered by the continuous failures of your army and intelligence in every front, it astounds me that there are still Pakistanis who dream of 'taking over India'. 

All you have been able to do to India is to get some innocent people in big cities killed by terrorists. Even when India was a dirt poor and weak country, just think back at what it managed to do to your country. Now India is more powerful and stronger than it ever was in history and getting stronger every year, and still you entertain such delusions? Pakistan on the other hand is already on the top 10 failed state list, and climbing down that list each year. Keeping this in mind, it would make sense for people like you to get a rude dose of reality and get some sense knocked in.

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## WarriorBrahmin

Anonymous_Clown said:


> *Are you Zaid Hamid by any chance?* When I read such cocksure comments, I don't know whether to laugh, get irritated or just ignore! I end up feeling astounded.
> 
> You have been trying to pick a fight with a country which is roughly 6 times more powerful that you in almost every aspect. Have you not learnt your lessons from the 20th century? You were the ones who proudly proclaimed, "1 Pakistani=10 Indians", remember? Even after getting that myth shattered by the continuous failures of your army and intelligence in every front, it astounds me that there are still Pakistanis who dream of 'taking over India'.
> 
> All you have been able to do to India is to get some innocent people in big cities killed by terrorists. Even when India was a dirt poor and weak country, just think back at what it managed to do to your country. Now India is more powerful and stronger than it ever was in history and getting stronger every year, and still you entertain such delusions? Pakistan on the other hand is already on the top 10 failed state list, and climbing down that list each year. Keeping this in mind, it would make sense for people like you to get a rude dose of reality and get some sense knocked in.





Another nutcase Zaid Hamid follower


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Not the first time I m being accused of being Zaid Hamid or his follower...  haha

Dont worry folks... You guys stay drunk in your dreams of power... When the time comes you ll see what we do to your army... Raja Dahir and Muhammad Bin Qasim shall be played again...


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## MYSTIC

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> @ Mystic
> 
> Who is saying that we are fans of Chinese Human Rights Records?
> 
> The Kashmiri insurgency will come to end when Pakistan takes over all of India... This is now most certain more so than ever before...
> 
> Our army is more than capable of doing this... We just have to sort out our political mess before such a final show down with India...



Pakistan has never critiqued Chinese atrocities. Never a word. In fact none of the muslim countries care about Tibet. So why do they expect other to care about them?

Your army has been unsuccessful in taking over Kashmir for six decades so stop dreaming about whole of India.

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## WarriorBrahmin

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Not the first time I m being accused of being Zaid Hamid or his follower...  haha
> 
> Dont worry folks... You guys stay drunk in your dreams of power... When the time comes you ll see what we do to your army... Raja Dahir and Muhammad Bin Qasim shall be played again...



We've also seen Bangladesh rise out of pakistan


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## Brotherhood

MYSTIC said:


> Pakistan has never critiqued Chinese atrocities. Never a word. In fact none of the muslim countries care about Tibet. So why do they expect other to care about them?
> 
> Your army has been unsuccessful in taking over Kashmir for six decades so stop dreaming about whole of India.



You got a problem with your brain? why draging China into every single one of your post? 
Cut out your idiotic comments unless you able to convince your GOI to stop recongnize tibet as part of China, Btw, did your GOI dare to critisize China regarding tibet? If not shut the hell up for good please.


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## justanobserver

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> aja Dahir and Muhammad Bin Qasim shall be played again...





You don't realize the irony do you? Muhaamad Bin Qasim was from Arabia, you know what he's famous for? *For the conquest of Sindh * and parts of Punjab!

Or in other words conquest of the entire region know as present day Pakistan !

What confused identity , no wonder you guys worship the Arabs. Oh but ofcourse its not conquest, he 'liberated' you and made you part of the 'ummah'

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## foxbat

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> @ Mystic
> 
> Who is saying that we are fans of Chinese Human Rights Records?
> 
> The Kashmiri insurgency will come to end when Pakistan takes over all of India... This is now most certain more so than ever before...
> 
> Our army is more than capable of doing this... We just have to sort out our political mess before such a final show down with India...



its not an eRepublic discussion going on here. There is a separate thread for that..


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## MYSTIC

Brotherhood said:


> You got a problem with your brain? why draging China into every single one of your post?
> Cut out your idiotic comments unless you able to convince your GOI to stop recongnize tibet as part of China, Btw, did your GOI dare to critisize China regarding tibet? If not shut the hell up for good please.



Why are you acting so bravo over the internet? Where have I dragged China in my post other than this one? What is your problem. I commented to someone else. India recognize Tibet as part of China. So does Pakistan. But there are humanitarian crisis in Tibet and Kashmir. We have openly criticized atrocities in both Tibet and Kashmir. The world is criticizing China over Tibet. What wrong in that? Same way GOI has to be criticized over Kashmir. 

And please don't tell me what my government can and cannot do. If China is such a giant why don't you get back your little land called Taiwan. We are openly supporting spiritual leaders like Dalai Lama and have offered them exile.

Considering you are from China, you might not be used to the concept of freedom of speech. You see I can type anything that I please. If you have a problem with it please notify the administrators. If they think it is inappropriate they will delete the comment.


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## Brotherhood

Openly lying on a forum get you no where except proving your ignorance.



MYSTIC said:


> *China* is unwilling to give Tibet autonomy while India you are asking India to give freedom to Kashmir. Hypocrisy don't you think. Or is it that Tibetans are non-muslim and therefore you don't really care.





MYSTIC said:


> Pakistan has never critiqued *Chinese atrocities.* Never a word. In fact none of the muslim countries care about Tibet. So why do they expect other to care about them?
> 
> Your army has been unsuccessful in taking over Kashmir for six decades so stop dreaming about whole of India.





MYSTIC said:


> Why are you acting so bravo over the internet? *Where have I dragged China in my post other than this one?* What is your problem. I commented to someone else. India recognize Tibet as part of China. So does Pakistan. But there are humanitarian crisis in Tibet and Kashmir. We have openly criticized atrocities in both Tibet and Kashmir. The world is criticizing China over Tibet. What wrong in that? Same way GOI has to be criticized over Kashmir.
> 
> And please don't tell me what my government can and cannot do. If China is such a giant why don't you get back your little land called Taiwan. We are openly supporting spiritual leaders like Dalai Lama and have offered them exile.
> 
> Considering you are from China, you might not be used to the concept of freedom of speech. You see I can type anything that I please. If you have a problem with it please notify the administrators. If they think it is inappropriate they will delete the comment.




Look again, the topic is "pro freedom insurgents VS Indian army, how does China came into the pictures unless you are intended to troll and flame? and you still wondering why i responsed to your post?

Who give a damn what GOI and some idiots think or do if my country was not being drag into a thread thats completely unrelated?

Don't even get me started regarding your so-called freedom of speech, tell that to your millions of "Untouchables" whom being discriminated and oppressed by your most evil caste-system on the planet period. Do not lecture me what i should or not do, perhaps the last thing i need is an advice from a proud citizen of h..H... period.


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## Anonymous_Clown

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Not the first time I m being accused of being Zaid Hamid or his follower...  haha
> 
> Dont worry folks... You guys stay drunk in your dreams of power... When the time comes you ll see what we do to your army... Raja Dahir and Muhammad Bin Qasim shall be played again...



Dreams? We aren't the ones who are dreaming. What I stated was pure fact. It is people like you and Zaid Hamid who are the dreamers here. First let us see you build up an economy, military, clout and *image* to accomplish what you *dream* about. Then we'll take your talk seriously.


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## desiman

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> rolling stone the indian.



why because he is speaking against Pakistan's interest, nice logic.


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## paritosh

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Tibet is not asking for seccession from China; I believe they are asking for autonomy
> 
> Kashmiris are asking for self-determination
> 
> 
> to compare Kashmir to Tibet is beyond ABSURD. Tibet isn't disputed territory. Kashmir is.




Had we used brutal force against the Kashmiri separatists and shunned all forms of voicing dissent like the Chinese did...the Kashmiris would have also been asking for autonomy...
The usage of force is also a factor you should consider...
The moderates like the hurriyat...syed gillani and all did not seek refuge in Pakistan the way Dalai Lama did...
from a distance it does appear that we have created an exception in our democratic system for the case of kashmir...it isn't so actually...
The Kashmiris get fired upon when they break curfews....and revert to stone-pelting....personally I do not support the usage of brutal force at all specially in an area that is under constant global scrutiny.
Tibet...junnnagadh...hyderabad...balochistan...palestine...the case of the uighurs...chechenya...texas...ireland...
are unresolved disputes of a similar kind...you'd want to go into the intricate details and try to fid difference...you'd defeat my argument...that however is not my point...


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## paritosh

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> @ Mystic
> 
> Who is saying that we are fans of Chinese Human Rights Records?
> 
> The Kashmiri insurgency will come to end when Pakistan takes over all of India... This is now most certain more so than ever before...
> 
> Our army is more than capable of doing this... We just have to sort out our political mess before such a final show down with India...


It is obvious that many Pakistanis would have taken note of the recent clashes against the uighurs and would also feel for the tibetans...yet it is only prudent to seek your stand alongside your trusted ally...when you have your own unsettled issues...
believe me there are a lot many Indians who'd want the Kashmiris to have it their own way...for some peace is paramount for others...striving to achieve vantage to force peace is even more imperative... 


> The Kashmiri insurgency will come to end when Pakistan takes over all of India... This is now most certain more so than ever before...
> 
> Our army is more than capable of doing this... We just have to sort out our political mess before such a final show down with India...


I don't want to get into this childish argument...
but I'd say this once...
You nukes buy you your safety.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

paritosh said:


> The usage of force is also a factor you should consider...
> The moderates like the hurriyat...syed gillani and all did not seek refuge in Pakistan the way Dalai Lama did...



precisely! Thanks for further proving my point. Mr. Geelani obviously knows that running away to either side would exacerbate the problems and lower his credibility 

the people of Kashmir (both sides) beckon for him it seems




> The Kashmiris get fired upon when they break curfews....and revert to stone-pelting....personally I do not support the usage of brutal force at all specially in an area that is under constant global scrutiny.



if you break into my house and I resist, and you open fire on me, destroy my furniture and personal effects, and have the nerve to impose your will on me in the sanctity of my own home then you have added insult to injury (or injury to insult?)

I won't stand idly. I will fight back. I will resist beyond even my God-given capacity.





> Tibet...junnnagadh...hyderabad...balochistan...palestine...the case of the uighurs...chechenya...texas...ireland...
> are unresolved disputes of a similar kind...



nope.....only Falasteen and Kashmir are unresolved disputes. Rest are not. Not sure who would tell you otherwise.




> you'd want to go into the intricate details and try to fid difference...you'd defeat my argument...that however is not my point...


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## RollingStones

Brotherhood said:


> Openly lying on a forum get you no where except proving your ignorance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look again, the topic is "pro freedom insurgents VS Indian army, how does China came into the pictures unless you are intended to troll and flame? and you still wondering why i responsed to your post?
> 
> Who give a damn what GOI and some idiots think or do if my country was not being drag into a thread thats completely unrelated?
> 
> Don't even get me started regarding your so-called freedom of speech, tell that to your millions of "Untouchables" whom being discriminated and oppressed by your most evil caste-system on the planet period. Do not lecture me what i should or not do, perhaps the last thing i need is an advice from a proud citizen of h..H... period.



Citing examples from similar situations, drawing analogies, contrasting events are all part of good debating. In this case, China has been "dragged" in to analyze and contrast the situations. There is nothing wrong with that, in my opinion, as long as the central theme still stays on the topic. That's what the debaters have done here.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

The problem is that as long as Pakistan has its own problems of dacoits in government and an Army that is solely for the purpose of defence, none of these problems will be solved... At the end of the day the Indians have a point... Why is it that Pakistan is unable to persuade its friend China to look after its Muslim citizens... The reason is simple... Pakistan cant even look after its own Muslim citizens in the first place... 

This would obviously change if Pakistan have people with brains and vision in power... The friendship with China can be improved even further and using that friendship and ties a safe state of affairs be ensured for Muslims in China...


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> The problem is that as long as Pakistan has its own problems of dacoits in government and an Army that is solely for the purpose of defence, none of these problems will be solved... At the end of the day the Indians have a point... Why is it that Pakistan is unable to persuade its friend China to look after its Muslim citizens... The reason is simple... Pakistan cant even look after its own Muslim citizens in the first place...



i'm sorry, i can't subscribe to that (except for your first sentence)




> This would obviously change if Pakistan have people with brains and vision in power... The friendship with China can be improved even further and using that friendship and ties a safe state of affairs be ensured for Muslims in China...



in one way or another, it's already been going on for some years now....JI sent delegation to quell the disturbance in Xinjiang and it seems to have been effective. I personally couldn't care less for JI, but it may be one of the most productive things they've ever done, when they aren't busy shouting slogans and remaining silent when is most convenient and suitable for them.

my own views though, based on limited information I know



by the way, what has this got to do with Kashmiri freedom fighters in the internationally recognized _disputed territory_?


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## paritosh

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> precisely! Thanks for further proving my point. Mr. Geelani obviously knows that running away to either side would exacerbate the problems and lower his credibility
> 
> the people of Kashmir (both sides) beckon for him it seems


ok...there wasn't a death warrant on the heads of the leaders of the Hurriyat last time I checked...Dalai Lama was a wanted man when he made is escape into India...
the point is that the leaders of Hurriyat have never been stopped from harping on how India is bad for Kashmir...they have never been stopped from writing and using democratic ways of showing public support for their causes...however when their rallies turn into gatherings of stone-pelters who damage civic property...the leaders who incite such and such get arrested...




> if you break into my house and I resist, and you open fire on me, destroy my furniture and personal effects, and have the nerve to impose your will on me in the sanctity of my own home then you have added insult to injury (or injury to insult?)
> 
> I won't stand idly. I will fight back. I will resist beyond even my God-given capacity.


I would ask you humbly not to put your perspective of things over mine...
it's funny reading the above mentioned scenario brought Kargill and '65 to my mind...you and I have been programmed to see things our own separate way...a middle path looks like the only profittable yet distant solution.





> nope.....only Falasteen and Kashmir are unresolved disputes. Rest are not. Not sure who would tell you otherwise.


it's again a matter of perspective.
what about the Uighur problem and the Chechen problem?
Can it be said with certainty that the people there don't want accession? 
in the case of texas...time made all the resentment disappear...in the regions I mentioned...'peace' was achieved using brute force and violence...Kashmir and our conduct with the issue is a whole lot better.





>


no point getting/giving heart-burns over it all...I see your point...can't deny that you are right in your way...but see that there is another equally believable alter-perspective that I put my faith in.

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Bro Abu Zulfiqar... I was actually going to mention this second point... The example of JI...

As for my first point... what I mean to say is that just the fact we have dacoits in our government it means that nothing is right with our country... Our people are actually the best but because they have been economically so crippled that it brings out the worse in them... We have no lack of talent, no lack of resources yet we continue to be poor and in an unjust mess in our country... So I am mentioning the problems that we face in our country... 

As for what it has to do with Kashmir... Perhaps nothing... but we should tell our Indian friends here that we are no bigots... If even a Hindu is wronged in any part of the world we will be supporting him too... regardless of their religion...

Hope that explains my point better

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## justanobserver

paritosh said:


> ok...there wasn't a death warrant on the heads of the leaders of the Hurriyat last time I checked...Dalai Lama was a wanted man when he made is escape into India...
> the point is that the leaders of Hurriyat have never been stopped from harping on how India is bad for Kashmir...they have never been stopped from writing and using democratic ways of showing public support for their causes...however when their rallies turn into gatherings of stone-pelters who damage civic property...the leaders who incite such and such get arrested...



Sometimes GoI gets on my nerves 



> *Geelani has been diagnosed with renal cancer*, and has been recommended by doctors to go overseas for treatment. After Prime Minister Manmohan Singh intervened, Indian government agencies returned Geelani's passport to his son.[12] His passport was seized in 1981 due to accusations of "anti-India" activities, and with the exception of his Hajj pilgrimage in 2006, he has not been allowed to leave India.[13]
> 
> During a regular check-up doctors discovered that Geelani's "only kidney has developed malignancy".[14] An infection forced doctors, four years ago, to remove his left kidney. Although the cancer was in its early stages, it was life threatening, and he needed to have surgery. Following the advice of his doctors at Apollo Hospital, Geelani was set to travel to either the UK or the USA for specialized treatment.[15] *However his request for a visa was turned down by the Americans, and as his health deteriorated* *he went to Mumbai for surgery. Doctors at the Tata Memorial Hospital successfully performed surgery on his kidney.*[16] The reason given by the U.S. for turning down Geelani's request for a visa was, that he has" failed to renounce violence". This decision was declared a violation of his human rights by his supporters and family.[17].



The bloody hypocrite


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Paritosh... Cmon man... You and I and everyone knows that Bharat has hundreds of thousands of armed forces inside Kashmir... If there were such freedom for Muslims in that region what was Indian Army doing there?

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## Irfan Baloch

bandit said:


> It is sad to know that a foreigner has to counsel you on your country's stand. Pakistan govt stand is that freedom from India can only be interpreted as accession to Pakistan as it has agreed to UN resolution regarding this. From the horse's mouth-



dont twist the reality my dear. its the right of self determination. whether they want to be totally indipendent , part of Pakistan or India (doesnt look like that)

its that right to decide like other states which was stolen from Kashmiris and a forced occupation of India which has resulted in a 60+ year old struggle of the kashmiris.


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## paritosh

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Paritosh... Cmon man... You and I and everyone knows that Bharat has hundreds of thousands of armed forces inside Kashmir... If there were such freedom for Muslims in that region what was Indian Army doing there?



arguably around 300,000 troops.....IA+paras...
There was a very serious threat from armed insurgents...the mortality ratio was 1:2 in our favor...which is one of the poorest mortality ratios in the world....just to abstain violence from the insurgents we needed a massive troop supply-chain...the fact that the rise in the number of troops in Kashmir was in proportion to the rise in the number of insurgency...testifies why the army is there....
This problem of Kashmir is seen as a problem based on religion only by Pakistan...
Do you support the need for self-governance...or do you support the need for self-governance only when it is based on a particular religion...?
Whatever happens in KAshmir brings a bad taste in my mouth too bro...but there are unpalatable things that need to be accepted before we talk of resolution...


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Paritosh. 

The insurgents came after the Indian Troops as far as I remember...

anyway... As for your other question... Perhaps you would understand considering your avatar of Che...

Does it really matter who is administering the political affairs in a communist country regardless of what they may believe personally... Ultimately systems of government come with the system and mode of economics that is imposed on people... India (like Pakistan) is a Capitalist and Secular state... it suffers from the same problems that the rest of developing countries suffer from... Massive poverty and despite abundance of resources, corruption/uneducation/unemployment etc...

I believe that if you give people a decent life... Value them as citizens by letting them contribute to the good of society... stop taxing them left right and centre, provide education and health services as well as durable and robust infrastructure for living... then it does nt really matter who is in power at the end of the day... It is for this reason that I believe that nationalist kashmiri movements miss the mark completely and pro Pakistan movements miss the point partially ... What people need is a completely different system of governance and economics... Unless we show the world that example, sadly as a Pakistani I have nothing to offer the Indians or Kashmiris and they in return have nothing to offer anyone either... 

However and yes this is important... India must treat all Muslims with respect and care at all times... If India had managed to do that to Kashmiris they would have long forgotten about Pakistan and accepted their Indian nationality... This has obviously not happened... and I think India considering the popularity of Fascist Hindu political parties will fail to deliver such protection of Muslims... 

For this reason alone Pakistan has all the right to intervene to protect the Muslims of India... even if our act is not correct yet... but true victory will only come when we get our act right... establish social and economic justice in our land... I m sure once we set an example, even many Indians would want to live happily with us regardless of their religion, beliefs...

Hope that helps...


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## Abu Zolfiqar

paritosh said:


> ok...there wasn't a death warrant on the heads of the leaders of the Hurriyat last time I checked...Dalai Lama was a wanted man when he made is escape into India...
> the point is that the leaders of Hurriyat have never been stopped from harping on how India is bad for Kashmir...they have never been stopped from writing and using democratic ways of showing public support for their causes...however when their rallies turn into gatherings of stone-pelters who damage civic property...the leaders who incite such and such get arrested...



Death warrant is all the more reason to stay behind, if he really is to stand by his ''cause


By the way, if what you said were true then I wonder why there is a media blackout. Is Kashmir despite how militarized it is --even a war-zone? 




> I would ask you humbly not to put your perspective of things over mine...
> it's funny reading the above mentioned scenario brought Kargill and '65 to my mind...you and I have been programmed to see things our own separate way...a middle path looks like the only profittable yet distant solution.



Quite..I personally have no regrets over Kargil or 65; I just wish the planning and synergy were greater, and the leaders didnt succumb to external pressure. I also wish we were more self-sufficient in those days, though luckily now we are moving in right directions in that regard. 

i do hope for a solution though, one that suits Kashmiris (regardless of Pakistani or indian views)




> it's again a matter of perspective.
> what about the Uighur problem and the Chechen problem?



Latter isnt much of an issue nowdays; At least from what I can tell. Chechna still is restive, as are some other semi-autonomous areas. I lost respect for the Chechnya resistance after what they did to over 300 children at a school in Beslan. Besides, it isnt even my fight or my worry. If you look at things on the aggregate, seems that the violence is down when compared to early-mid 1990s




> Can it be said with certainty that the people there don't want accession?



I cant answer that with full confidence, because Im less familiar with the ground realities there





> in the case of texas...time made all the resentment disappear...



No, it still exists; but the artificial solution was to allow them to run casinos, drink themselves to death, and keep them on un-taxed ''plantations (Im assuming you are referring to ''los indigenas




> no point getting/giving heart-burns over it all...I see your point...can't deny that you are right in your way...but see that there is another equally believable alter-perspective that I put my faith in.




I dont get heart-burn, I am totally numb and free of emotion


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## MYSTIC

Brotherhood said:


> Openly lying on a forum get you no where except proving your ignorance.
> 
> Look again, the topic is "pro freedom insurgents VS Indian army, how does China came into the pictures unless you are intended to troll and flame? and you still wondering why i responsed to your post?
> 
> Who give a damn what GOI and some idiots think or do if my country was not being drag into a thread thats completely unrelated?
> 
> Don't even get me started regarding your so-called freedom of speech, tell that to your millions of "Untouchables" whom being discriminated and oppressed by your most evil caste-system on the planet period. Do not lecture me what i should or not do, perhaps the last thing i need is an advice from a proud citizen of h..H... period.



Really interesting how you co-relate freedom of speech with untouchability. Tells a lot about your debating skills....

Sorry I forgot, you are not allowed to debate. Stop trolling.


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## MYSTIC

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Paritosh.
> 
> The insurgents came after the Indian Troops as far as I remember...
> 
> anyway... As for your other question... Perhaps you would understand considering your avatar of Che...
> 
> Does it really matter who is administering the political affairs in a communist country regardless of what they may believe personally... Ultimately systems of government come with the system and mode of economics that is imposed on people... India (like Pakistan) is a Capitalist and Secular state... it suffers from the same problems that the rest of developing countries suffer from... Massive poverty and despite abundance of resources, corruption/uneducation/unemployment etc...
> 
> I believe that if you give people a decent life... Value them as citizens by letting them contribute to the good of society... stop taxing them left right and centre, provide education and health services as well as durable and robust infrastructure for living... then it does nt really matter who is in power at the end of the day... It is for this reason that I believe that nationalist kashmiri movements miss the mark completely and pro Pakistan movements miss the point partially ... What people need is a completely different system of governance and economics... Unless we show the world that example, sadly as a Pakistani I have nothing to offer the Indians or Kashmiris and they in return have nothing to offer anyone either...
> 
> *However and yes this is important... India must treat all Muslims with respect and care at all times... If India had managed to do that to Kashmiris they would have long forgotten about Pakistan and accepted their Indian nationality... This has obviously not happened... and I think India considering the popularity of Fascist Hindu political parties will fail to deliver such protection of Muslims... *
> 
> *For this reason alone Pakistan has all the right to intervene to protect the Muslims of India... *even if our act is not correct yet... but true victory will only come when we get our act right... establish social and economic justice in our land... I m sure once we set an example, even many Indians would want to live happily with us regardless of their religion, beliefs...
> 
> Hope that helps...



I agree with your post except for the bolded parts.

Do you think whatever has happened in Kashmir is all India's fault? Would Kashmir be burning if Pakistan did not breed the freedom struggle?


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

I don't believe a word of it, chances are he's another Kashmiri leader whom the Indian Army jail when they need a scape-goat. What are the chances of one hiding out in Sringar (of all places)?


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## KS

All-Green said:


> Your claim of ethnic cleansing is just an extremely exaggerated and invalid claim the sole purpose of which is to simply malign the Muslim Population of Kashmir and justify whatever brutality they are subjected to.
> 
> However we may look at it, the fact remains that the Kashmir Valley was overwhelmingly Muslim more than a century ago and remains so today, this rules out any barbaric ethnic cleansing which has made Muslims into majority via carnage and bloody murder.
> The population percentages have been fairly consistent with 1901.



The same way , murder and intimidation of the Hindu Pandits by the Islamic separatists seems exxagerated to you,the claims of brutalities by the Indian Army sounds like hyper-exxageration to me.

So lets agree to disagree and you will not be able to convince any Indian that only Muslims have been subjected to brutalities.The Hindu Pandits have undergone far worse condition during those burning 90s.




All-Green said:


> Now regarding your following statement
> 
> 
> There is no better way than to authorize state brutality than by sending troops and police in with the indoctrination that the local population needs to paid in their own coin since they have always been doing wrong unto others and are traitors towards the state.
> The Kashmiris are no traitors, *they simply had no say in the accession of Kashmir to India *and have become more and more isolated due to mishandling of the issue.



Neither in Most of the princely states,if not all, did the people have a choice.It was the choice of the ruler that mattered and the power at your disposal during a period of free for all.

So no use in harping about that now.



All-Green said:


> Regarding Junagadh, i do not care whoever it was that wrote a letter.
> The matter of accession was to be decided by the ruler, yet here the ruler was Muslim and the Non Muslim population was cited as a reason for India to demand a plebiscite.
> When the Ruler of Junagadh decided in favor of Pakistan the *Indian State seized the land anyways.*
> So effectively the population mattered in the end and this has been proven by history since Kashmir is the one place where the Indian state has failed to appease the local population.



"Might is Right" mate.The Indian state at that time had the power to enforce its rule in Junagadh,while the same thing when imitated by Pakistan in Kashmir fell on its face.




All-Green said:


> *The reason is that there is an overwhelming Muslim majority here which has not reconciled with India *but rather has become more and more alienated due to a troubled history with a lot of empty promises.
> 
> You talk of collateral but the concept of collateral has long been lost when Kashmir as a whole is seen as a nest of extremists.
> 
> The mindset here is that most Kashmiris are extremist, violent and terrorists or sympathetic to such , so it is lovely to pay them back in their own coin.
> You have defined a whole people as the enemy because majority of them are not at all in love with India but rather have a strong dislike for the Indian state apparatus which has been wronging them on many accounts.
> Here most of the population feels wronged by the Indian state, so it is not a case of rescuing the population from some insurgents but rather a standoff between the locals and the State apparatus.



If they feel they as Muslims,they cant live in Hindu India they can very well move on to Pakistan like the millions who did during Partition on both sides.No one really stops them.



All-Green said:


> Regarding the all time low insurgency resulting in more and more accountability of Troops...you could not be more wrong.
> When you avidly deny occurrences of r ape and torture despite judicial inquiries stating otherwise, you absolutely negate the purpose of accountability and reconciliation with the locals.
> 
> The Kashmiris who protest are thrashed around since they are anti Indian Muslim extremists with an agenda.
> Those whose daughter, wives etc are raped are called separatists with an agenda who are trying to entice population against the Indian state.
> Those who raise arms are all called terrorists who are terrorizing the locals at behest of Pakistan, yet no light is shed on the Indian policy breeding hatred which is evident in the streets of Kashmir.
> *Who is the state protecting in Kashmir and from whom*?




The state is protecting the silent majority who get played upon by the separatists for their own narrow gains and more importantly there for protecting something called "Territorial Integrity" from external and internal aggressors.




All-Green said:


> Only a fool would think that no Kashmiri youth would take up arms in wake of all the injustices and cover ups happening in the valley.
> Overall this is called a Pakistani sponsored movement so that all punitive actions are justified without accepting the Kashmiri Population's Standoff with the State as the major problem in Kashmir.
> 
> When there is zero percent recognition of the genuine Kashmiri Muslim sentiments and instead tales are fabricated about their past brutality against non Muslims, there is no hope but for the rapes, killings and torture to continue unchecked and be swept under the carpet.



If the Kashmiri Muslims want any respite from these so called rapes and other claims,let them agree to the INdian constitution.

*Lets face it - both you and I know very well that India will not budge on Kashmir for anything in the world.If lives have to be sacrificed/taken for that..It will be.*

The sooner all parties come to terms with the reality the better for all.

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## KS

Hi,



Irfan Baloch said:


> I know this is the biggest dilemma for India. Giving in to the demands of the Kashmiris (peaceful or violent) would set a wrong precedent be it the Sikh Khalistan movement (now effectively crushed) Tamils or Naxils etc.



No its not that concern.It will set a general precedent like "*Taking law into your hands and indulging in violence is a sure shot way to attain your goals"*.Now no responsible state would want that..Or would it ?

Seconly Khalistan is nothing but a bad dream for the Sikhs.The only Sikhs still nurturing that have become Canadian Citizens now and the absolute majority of the Sikhs in India keep their head high and say proudly they are Indians.

*And I absolutely have no idea why you mentioned Tamil Nadu and Naxals in this.?*..FYI - I am a Tamil and does it look like im asking for secession from India.? 




Irfan Baloch said:


> The point about Kashmir is that there was a foul play involved by the departing British and hence India got the land access to Kashmir and the occupation for right or wrong reasons. India is not alone about safeguarding its integrity. Pakistan had the same sentiments when it lost its eastern wing but we had to accept the reality. The Bengalis didn&#8217;t want anything to do with us whether the obnoxious governments in the west liked it or not. The will of the people prevailed in the end.



I would like to point out the differences between 1971 and Kashmir.

First you (West Pakistanis) shared absolutely nothing in common with Bengalis except religion - no shared culture,heritage,language and not even land links...whereas in the case of Kashmir it has a shared history,culture,heritage,religion,land link,language etc etc..Name it and you got it.

So I dont think a comparison between Bangladesh and Kashmir is apt.

Also the bitter truth is Pakistan did not voluntarily let go of East Pakistan due to some humanitarian gesture,,rather they were forced to.I dont think any nation in the world can do the same to India on Kashmir.



Irfan Baloch said:


> Kashmir is disputed from the day British empire left it intentionally unresolved. There will have to be a middle ground if we the people of the subcontinent have to move forward there will be some middle ground some give and take. It&#8217;s the &#8220;give&#8221; which is the tricky part. A strong leadership in both sides that decides a final solution that keeps the wishes of the people of Kashmir in mind and main prieority.
> 
> Otherwise we will be condemned to stay in this confrontation left by British for coming future.
> Maybe off topic something really irks me I hope you or someone else picks it up. This English race is strange (to put it mildly) wherever they set foot or whenever they left from somewhere. They have left a conflict for the people of that place
> Be it Kashmir, the making of Israeli state are the prime examples. The division of Arabian Peninsula re Kurds vs. Iraq/ Iran/ Turkey. The Cyprus issue (Greece Vs Turkey). The Durand line (Pak Afghan border issue). think of a Place where British set foot and 9 out of 10 times you will find a conflict.
> 
> In all these cases Kashmir and Palestine are the prime conflicts that have taken the whole region a hostage. Can we be smart enough to solve the conflict? I wonder and I pray



True - but whats the use in blaming others in our past while we continue to ignore ground realities of the present.

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## Trichy

Azad Kashmir said:


> I don't believe a word of it, chances are he's another Kashmiri leader whom the Indian Army jail when they need a scape-goat. What are the chances of one hiding out in Sringar (of all places)?



As per the NEWS, he(ba$ter) is arrested by *J&K POLICE* not by the *INDIAN ARMY*


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## foxbat

Gunbattle on in Kashmir to flush out Jaish terrorists from populated area - Express India

Srinagar An encounter broke out in the early hours of Thursday between three holed up Jaish-e-Mohammad militants and security forces in Malroo on the outskirts of Srinagar city, officials said. 
Police and troops of the 2 Rashtriya Rifles cordoned off the Malroo locality, 15 kilometres from here, in the morning following a tip-off about the presence of at least three militants in one of the houses in the area, they said. 

The ultras opened fire on the security forces when they were zeroing in on the target house, which belonged to property dealer Abdul Rashid Bhat. 

The troops retaliated following which a gunbattle ensued, they said. 

*As the house is located in a populated area, the security forces announced a halt in hostilities and sent a group of locals to persuade the militants to surrender, they said. *
*However, the ultras refused the offer*. 

*The security forces are evacuating all civilians from the vicinity *before they launch an assault to flush out the militants, they said. 

*The firing between the security forces and militants resumed after the security personnel ensured there were no civilians in the close vicinity of the house, the officials said. *
A helicopter was seen flying very low over the house after which one of the militants started firing towards it, they said. 

A defence spokesman said the movement of the choppers in the area is for routine administrative purposes as the headquarters of anti-militant operation Kilo Force is located in nearby Shariefabad area. 

"We do not use helicopters during encounter operations," Lt Colonel J S Brar said

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## foxbat

Misguided tactics by the militants... By risking the civilians, they are putting themselves in the wrong light...


For the Mods: Have kept it as a separate thread since the event is ongoing. We can merge it once the militants are killed....


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## All-Green

> Karthic Sri said:
> 
> 
> 
> The same way , murder and intimidation of the Hindu Pandits by the Islamic separatists seems exxagerated to you,the claims of brutalities by the Indian Army sounds like hyper-exxageration to me.
> 
> So lets agree to disagree and you will not be able to convince any Indian that only Muslims have been subjected to brutalities.The Hindu Pandits have undergone far worse condition during those burning 90s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again hiding from the ground reality and trying to justify the tyrannical approach to the suppression of Kashmiris by diverting the discussion.
> 
> The fact is that you are rather focusing on half cooked stories of ethnic cleansing of Hindus in the valley despite the census data which is available throughout the last century, only to build up justifications for hating those Kashmiris who are openly anti India.
> This fact of yours has never had any global recognition nor sympathy since a mass anti Muslim genocide is contrary to recognized census data.
> 
> 
> You would rather dwell in such stories as to justify the ugly truth that is now visible in Kashmir?
> A perfect recipe to ensure that Kashmiris are permanently split from India, suits me but for the innocent lives lost.
> 
> I completely agree to disagree with you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither in Most of the princely states,if not all, did the people have a choice.It was the choice of the ruler that mattered and the power at your disposal during a period of free for all.
> 
> So no use in harping about that now.
> 
> "Might is Right" mate.The Indian state at that time had the power to enforce its rule in Junagadh,while the same thing when imitated by Pakistan in Kashmir fell on its face.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well the reason for my perceived *harping* about that was to bring to attention the fact that State of India did indeed *harp* about the will of the people before subjugating the princely states.
> The continuous failing to see the significance of the will of the people in Kashmir is the *root cause of the problem.*
> Once India deliberately fails to see or recognize the problem, it cannot come up with any suitable long term answer except brute force.
> The result of such a policy is now in the streets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If they feel they as Muslims,they cant live in Hindu India they can very well move on to Pakistan like the millions who did during Partition on both sides.No one really stops them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is their land and their will, the will of the people, it always bites one in the behind if ignored.
> The people who moved out at the time of partition were moving out from minority areas.
> Kashmiri Muslims have always been in over 90&#37; majority in the Valley so why should they feel inclined to leave their land?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The state is protecting the silent majority who get played upon by the separatists for their own narrow gains and more importantly there for protecting something called "Territorial Integrity" from external and internal aggressors.
> 
> If the Kashmiri Muslims want any respite from these so called rapes and other claims,let them agree to the INdian constitution.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What narrow gains are you talking about?
> Thousands of unarmed civilians do not come out in the streets for narrow gains!
> 
> They come out in numbers because of the injustices which are perpetrated to suppress them because of their independence oriented mindset which is in direct clash with India.
> They want respite from these rapes and brutal tactics but not by recognizing the Indian constitution because the State which represents this holy constitution is the same one which turns a deliberate blind eye when these people are raped, tortured and killed.
> 
> So called rapes?
> You really are living in denial.
> You are deliberately ignoring the facts on ground and the reason for the rapes etc.
> The reason is that there is no dread of the State holding the perpetrators accountable since the victims are Kashmiri Muslims who are not loyal to the state.
> As long as the out of line brutes know that they can get away unless they leave too much evidence, they shall r ape and kill more and more.
> Brutes are in every society, however if they find a gray area which is left unchecked...they will take advantage of it again and again, since they can protect themselves by saying that they are being framed by anti state forces, however the number of Kashmiris protesting various incidents refuted by the state indicates that there is a public outrage and anger which leads one to believe that there is indeed a tendency to cover up and sweep things under the carpet.
> 
> The silent majority you are talking about is not silent anymore, and yes everyone does not have equal courage to come out in the streets when they are dragged away and selectively raped, tortured and killed by people who are without any real fear of accountability.
> 
> So called r ape?
> The controversial cases of 2009 which were investigated and authenticate by judicial inquiry and initial autopsy were later dismissed after carrying out a most controversial medical test three months after burial.
> The situation is so bad because the state even wants to deny the rapes leave alone investigate them and punish those responsible.
> 
> Keep on carrying out things like this and the Kashmiri youth would turn to arms in larger numbers till there will be nothing left but ashes and dust in Kashmir for India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Lets face it - both you and I know very well that India will not budge on Kashmir for anything in the world.If lives have to be sacrificed/taken for that..It will be.*
> 
> *The sooner all parties come to terms with the reality the better for all.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Now there are three parties here, Pakistan and Kashmiris have no major issues between them and will agree on the demands, whereas Indian interest is not in favor of the Kashmir Muslim views and the more it pursues this interest via military means, the more hostile the Kashmiri Muslims in the valley become towards India.
> 
> I agree that India will not budge here since all present indicators show that India has discarded a soft approach, now it is about holding on to the piece of land and keeping the mostly disloyal and treacherous population in check with all means necessary.
> 
> The bilateral resolution of Kashmir issue between Pakistan and India as suggested by India is just a diplomatic charade being played since a long time.
> India has no intention of budging an inch here and would like to keep Kashmiris out of the discussion despite the fact that they have a right to be part of dialogue.
> Had this bilateral dialogue produced something the issue could have been settled but as time passes by, i do not think anything can be done without a trilateral dialogue.
> 
> The more i read the Indian views the more i am convinced that the onus lies on Pakistan to ensure that Kashmiris have a meaningful support and there is enough international awareness to force a dialogue.
> To expect India to stop on its own and seek dialogue is absolutely a foolish notion since India has already gone beyond the point of no return with the Kashmiri population.
> The fact that Kashmiris in Pakistan are content indicates to India that it shall not gain any territory but only lose ground if there is a trilateral dialogue, hence it is averse to it.
> 
> Without some flexibility there can be no meaningful dialogue on Kashmir, without a meaningful dialogue there can be no meaningful peace in this region and without meaningful peace we are all condemned to remain in this state of mutual dislike and mistrust.
> 
> In a nutshell, for present day India a peace with Pakistan and Kashmiris is not worth the loss of Kashmir valley, not even a little loss.
> Without even slight adjustments, i really do not see any golden era of stability being ushered in, no matter how much advances are made in this region.
> Somehow the miracle has to be performed where India sees advantage in dialogue, maybe as the situation worsens there may be reconsideration to address this issue...certainly not a desirable course but that is what i perceive.
> 
> Kashmir is most important to resolve because it is definitely the major issue between the two major countries in South Asia, once there is some advancement here...both countries can have much more internal stability since they can support each other and cooperate without fear of manipulation and betrayal.
> I am not full of hate nor do i want Pakistan and India to be at each others throats, yet how can there be peace when hearts and minds are at war?
> 
> Anyways i think i have said all what i wanted to say...just left wondering one thing
> 
> Is a false peace better than an honest and open disagreement/hostility?
> Surely one cannot be both not peaceful and yet friendly.
> Friendship demands trust and we lack that big time.
> Yet many here want friendship between the two states.
Click to expand...

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

MYSTIC said:


> I agree with your post except for the bolded parts.
> 
> Do you think whatever has happened in Kashmir is all India's fault? Would Kashmir be burning if Pakistan did not breed the freedom struggle?



You seem to have forgotten the fact that Kashmir was joined with India against the wishes of its people by Raja Gulab Singh...


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## bandit

^^^and that gives Pakistan the right to invade a sovereign territory and claim it as its own?


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## KS

All-Green said:


> Once again hiding from the ground reality and trying to justify the tyrannical approach to the suppression of Kashmiris.
> 
> The fact is that you are rather focusing on *half cooked stories of ethnic cleansing of Hindus in the valley* despite the census data which is available throughout the last century, only to build up justifications for hating those Kashmiris who are openly anti India.
> This fact of yours has never had any global recognition nor sympathy since it is fabricated and contrary to recognized census data.
> 
> You would rather dwell in such stories as to justify the ugly truth that is now visible in Kashmir?
> A perfect recipe to ensure that Kashmiris are permanently split from India, suits me but for the innocent lives lost.
> 
> I completely agree to disagree with you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For you they are half-cooked,...but for me having interacted with the refugess in Delhi as a part of student exchange program they are gruesome reality.
> 
> So lets agree to disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All-Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well the reason for my perceived *harping* about that was to bring to attention the fact that State of India did indeed *harp* about the will of the people before subjugating the princely states.
> The continuous failing to see the significance of the will of the people in Kashmir is the *root cause of the problem.*
> Once India deliberately fails to see or recognize the problem, it cannot come up with any suitable long term answer except brute force.
> The result of such a policy is now in the streets.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is what I said - India did a thing in Junagadh and Pakistan tried to do the same thing in Kashmir,but for obvious reasons failed in that objective.
> 
> Lets not act saintly - during that period of integration of the princely states both India and Pakistan were vying for the different states to integrated with their respective countries.*While India was sucessful in that Pakistan wasnt.So now the "will of the ppl" argument comes ot after failing in all other means and methods*.Does it sound creible - NO.
> 
> 
> 
> All-Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is their land and their will, the will of the people.
> The people who moved out at the time of partition were moving out from minority areas.
> Kashmiri Muslims have always been in over 90&#37; majority in the Valley so why should they feel inclined to leave their land?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not exactly their land - it was technically the Raja's kingdom which he acceded to India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All-Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> What narrow gains are you talking about?
> Thousands of unarmed civilians do not come out in the streets for narrow gains!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thats what I said - these thousands of unarmed civilians are played by the likes of Geelani and his coterie for their narrow political and religious goals.
> 
> you just substantiated my point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All-Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> So called rapes?
> You really are living in denial.
> You are deliberately ignoring the facts on ground and the reason for the rapes etc.
> The reason is that there is no dread of the State holding the perpetrators accountable since the victims are Kashmiri Muslims who are not loyal to the state.
> As long as the out of line brutes know that they can get away unless they leave too much evidence, they shall r ape and kill more and more.
> Brutes are in every society, however if they find a gray area which is left unchecked...they will take advantage of it again and again, since they can protect themselves by saying that they are being framed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Im not living in denial.Wherever there is an insurgency sponsored by external factors,the Army has to set foot in to clean up the mess and no army in no country acts in civilian areas without legal immunity.
> 
> And where are the oft-requested proofs for these rapes other than propaganda media? There may be some here and there but not on a large scale as you seem to suggest.
> 
> 
> 
> All-Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> So called r ape?
> The controversial cases of 2009 which were investigated and authenticate by judicial inquiry and initial autopsy were later dismissed after carrying out a most controversial medical test three months after burial.
> The situation is so bad because the state even wants to deny the rapes leave alone investigate them and punish those responsible.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> mate,you say its a ****,but the CBI and the independent Kashmiri police enquiry revealed that there was no ****.
> 
> i tend to believe the latter.
> 
> 
> 
> All-Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> Keep on carrying out things like this and the Kashmiri youth would turn to arms in larger numbers till there will be nothing left but ashes and dust in Kashmir for India.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thats the most foolish thing those"youths" can ever do..?Whats the max they can do..? Take AKs and shoot innocent Indians in otehr parts of India like Mumbai.
> We ve seen many attacks before and we know how to face them.
> 
> But what will happen to them after that....?? They get branded as "terrorists" and will face the consequences for that.
> 
> Have you thought of that.? We are 1.2 billion ppl there.there is not enough bullets left to kill all of us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All-Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now *there are three parties here,* Pakistan and Kashmiris have no major issues between them and will agree on the demands, whereas Indian interest is not in favor of the Kashmir Muslim views and the more it pursues this interest via military means, the more hostile the Kashmiri Muslims in the valley become towards India.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only Two parties according to the much favoured UN resolutions.
> 
> 
> 
> All-Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> The bilateral resolution of Kashmir issue between Pakistan and India as suggested by India is just a diplomatic charade being played since a long time.
> *India has no intention of budging an inch here* and would like to keep Kashmiris out of the discussion despite the fact that they have a right to be part of dialogue.
> Had this bilateral dialogue produced something the issue could have been settled but as time passes by, i do not think anything can be done without a trilateral dialogue.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Exactly - the only solution is making the LoC permanent and then leaving Indians and Kashmiris to sort out the other issues *amongst themselves.*
> 
> 
> 
> All-Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> The more i read the Indian views the more i am convinced that the onus lies on Pakistan to ensure that Kashmiris have a meaningful support and there is enough international awareness to force a dialogue.
> To expect India to stop on its own and seek dialogue is absolutely a foolish notion since India has already gone beyond the point of no return with the Kashmiri population.
> The fact that Kashmiris in Pakistan are content indicates to India that it shall not gain any territory but only lose ground if there is a trilateral dialogue, hence it is averse to it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Its not about loosing or gaining territory.its about maintaining the sanctity of one's "Territorial integrity" which is absolutely non-negotiable for everything/anything in the world*
> 
> And international awareness - yes there is an international awareness about kashmir...but that awareness is India is a democratic state that is defending its territory while Pakistan sponsors militants from its soil to launch attacks on India.
> 
> And thats why you dont see any international country lecturing India on Kashmir.
> 
> Sad,but true.
> 
> 
> 
> All-Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> Without some flexibility there can be no meaningful dialogue on Kashmir, without a meaningful dialogue there can be no meaningful peace in this region and without meaningful peace we are all condemned to remain in this state of mutual dislike and mistrust.
> 
> In a nutshell, for present day *India a peace with Pakistan and Kashmiris is not worth the loss of Kashmir valley, not even a little loss.*
> Without even slight adjustments, i really do not see any golden era of stability being ushered in, no matter how much advances are made in this region.
> Somehow the miracle has to be performed where India sees advantage in dialogue, maybe as the situation worsens there may be reconsideration to address this issue...
> 
> Kashmir is most important to resolve because it is definitely the major issue between the two major countries in South Asia, once there is some advancement here...both countries can have much more internal stability since they can support each other and cooperate without fear of manipulation and betrayal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It all sounds so rosy and so good.But our economy, military and most-importantly the people are ready to live in hostility rather than surrendering our Land on grounds of religion to anyone.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> *ps: I may sound hostile,belligerent....because I wanted to be candid and dont want to mince words for some sort of "all-is-rosy-feeling" over an internet forum.I just wanted to say how an average Indian feels about Kashmir.And nothing is going to change that feeling.*.
Click to expand...

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## Irfan Baloch

Karthic Sri said:


> Not exactly their land - it was technically the Raja's kingdom which he acceded to India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats what I said - these thousands of unarmed civilians are played by the likes of Geelani and his coterie for their narrow political and religious goals.
> 
> you just substantiated my point.
> 
> .



Raja acceeded at the point of a gun. the very essence of democracy was the victim when the will of the people of Kashmir was totally brushed aside.

correction regarding the protesters they are hundreds of thousands and they are doing it for 60+ years. its not just Geelani its the voice of the majority.

by the way you talked about the Hindu refugees being displaced due to Kashmir freedom struggle. at least they had the chance to escape alive.
the Muslims of Jammu never had that chance 
they were brutally and systematically cleansed from Jammu thus making Jammu a pretty much a Hindu area.

please be fair when making qoutations

thanks


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## foxbat

Irfan Baloch said:


> Raja acceeded at the point of a gun. the very essence of democracy was the victim when the will of the people of Kashmir was totally brushed aside.



The gun in question was held by Pakistan. He signed accession to get Indian forces to protect his state from the invasion of Pakistani irregulars.. Dont blame India for an event resulting from the action of Pakistan..


----------



## KS

Irfan Baloch said:


> Raja acceeded at the point of a gun. the very essence of democracy was the victim when the will of the people of Kashmir was totally brushed aside.



The gun was brought to the table by the invading Pashtun tribals.Indian Army came into the picture only as a deterrent against that invasion.



Irfan Baloch said:


> orrection regarding the protesters they are hundreds of thousands and they are doing it for 60+ years. its not just Geelani its the voice of the majority.



No...Kashmir under Sheikh Abdhullah was much more peaceful than many other states at that time.The people and the leaders at that time had genuine political aspirations that could/should have been addressed.


But in came the terrorism and the rising Islamic separatism into this mix during the 90s and now India is at a point of no-return.



Irfan Baloch said:


> by the way you talked about the Hindu refugees being displaced due to Kashmir freedom struggle. at least they had the chance to escape alive.
> the Muslims of Jammu never had that chance
> they were brutally and systematically cleansed from Jammu thus making Jammu a pretty much a Hindu area.



Jammu has a 30% Muslim population.Please get your facts right sire.


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## paritosh

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Death warrant is all the more reason to stay behind, if he really is to stand by his ''cause


ok...not about how much a man this guy is...it's about the _rawaiya_ of GoI towards people who want to talk and settle this...
we are not on an arresting spree...nobody has bee arrested without proper grounds.



> By the way, if what you said were true then I wonder why there is a media blackout. Is Kashmir despite how militarized it is --even a war-zone?



do you follow Indian newspapers and tv channels?
all incidents of violence perpetrated by the army and by the insurgents gets covered.
I would be delighted if you can produce a piece that didn't get published..or highlited.


> Latter isnt much of an issue nowdays; At least from what I can tell. Chechna still is restive, as are some other semi-autonomous areas. I lost respect for the Chechnya resistance after what they did to over 300 children at a school in Beslan. Besides, it isnt even my fight or my worry. If you look at things on the aggregate, seems that the violence is down when compared to early-mid 1990s


there was an attack 2-3 days back in the chechen capital of grozny...
it is far from restive...
when the fight is against a much much stronger enemy...people often resort to desperate things like that unfortunate Beslan incident or 9/11 or the mumbai attacks...or the 10s of attacks occuring in your country...
there is no glory in war unless you finish it.





> I dont get heart-burn, I am totally numb and free of emotion


----------



## foxbat

Two militants killed in J&K encounter

Srinagar: Two militants were killed in a fierce encounter between Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM) militants and security forces in Malroo area on the outskirts of Srinagar city, officials said.

"We had information about 3 militants of JeM, so we launched operation in the morning. One house was blasted off, in which 2 militants were killed. The encounter is over but search for another one is going on. These people have come from Bandipora and one person has been arrested," said SSP Ashiq Bukhari.

Police and troops of 2 Rashtriya Rifles cordoned off Malroo locality, 15 km from Srinagar, in the wee hours following a tip off about the presence of at least three militants in one of the houses in the area, police said.

The ultras opened fire on the security forces when they were zeroing in on the target house, belonging to a property dealer. The troops retaliated following which a gunbattle ensued

The house is located in a populated area. An Army helicopter is monitoring the terrorists. 

The security forces evacuated all civilians from the vicinity before they launch an assault to flush out the militants. (With PTI inputs)


----------



## Xeric

Karthic Sri said:


> Lol..these lines are starting to sound ridiculously funny to me now.Keep denying the reality and are we going to loose anything.?



No, you aren't going to loose anything except a few more soldiers, some more soldiers with PTSD, a few more suicides in uniform and a few more mumbai attacks.

i am sure it isnt that heavy a price to pay for the largest democracy and a booming economy, is it?


----------



## wap7

Geelani faces shoe protest



> A shoe was thrown towards hardline Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani at a function here today as a group of people, including Kashmiri Pandits, staged a strong protest against his presence.
> 
> The protestors, shouting slogans like 'Bharat Mata Ki Jai' and 'Vande Mataram', created ruckus at the convention on 'Azaadi -- The Only Way' which was being attended by a number of sympathisers of Kashmiri separatists and naxals. Though Geelani was yet to speak, more than 70 protesters shouted slogans asking him to leave.
> 
> In the pandemonium, someone threw a shoe towards Geelani on the dais but it missed him. A human chain was immediately thrown around him on the dais by the security personnel and organisers to protect the leaders on the dais. The protestors were led out by the police.
> 
> At the time of the protest, S A R Geelani, a lecturer who was accused in the Parliament attack case but later set free, was speaking on the topic.



I hope he gets shipped to Pakistan soon.

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## Minimalist

xeric said:


> No, you aren't going to loose anything except a few more soldiers, some more soldiers with PTSD, a few more suicides in uniform and a few more mumbai attacks.
> 
> i am sure it isnt that heavy a price to pay for the largest democracy and a booming economy, is it?



Of course it isn't a heavy price to pay sir, when you consider that our enemy has lost its 'izzat' in front of the whole world.

Losing a few hundred/thousand/million lives is still much better than losing the 'izzat' and 'ghairat' of the country...no?


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## Xeric

Minimalist said:


> Of course it isn't a heavy price to pay sir, when you consider that our enemy has lost its 'izzat' in front of the whole world.
> 
> Losing a few hundred/thousand/million lives is still much better than losing the 'izzat' and 'ghairat' of the country...no?



Look who is talking.


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## Xeric

RollingStones said:


> I still dont get the Kashmir problem. If this is about hoisting the Kashmir flag and governing themselves, why dont they just do it? If someone stops them, then they have all the right to secede. What will a small completely independent district achieve, just for independence sake? To me Kashmir is still an issue of some leaders who want to govern the area (for whatever reasons) not getting the chance to do so. Its got nothing to do with religion or economic prosperity. And it absolutely has nothing to do with intelligent and smart thinking that being part of a larger Union is the way to go for getting the best of resources and best of lifestyle. For instance, Indian rupee is 2 times pakistani rupee. If Kashmiris were to shift over to pakistan, they would have to pay 2 times for every economic resource they had accessible to from within India. And they would have to wait possibly two or three times longer for infrastructure to reach them, than within India which can fund them faster. The economic implications will push Kashmir district to a backwater, which will have gross inequities with its much larger neighbor, as Kashmir alone does not have scale to implement large projects, nor official machinery to win large international loans and grants, or even establishing its international rights. Even if somehow Kashmiris chose to be independent, they need to choose an SAR status within India, much like HK or Macau. Even then, HK, Macau and Taiwan have incredible entrepreneurship and industries that Kashmiris cannot hope to achieve. I am sorry I do NOT believe in the Kashmiri story.



Did this also hold guud when Texas joined the US?


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## pundit

We keep talking about Mumbai 26/11 in the context of Kashmir. It is interesting to note that all 10 terrorists were Pakistanis. They were NOT Kashmiris and certainly not Indian Kashmiris. 

My point is that we should not draw equivalences or attribute cause-and-effect to the wrong causes. Mumbai 26/11 happened due to Pakistani terrorist strategy and was supported by the Pakistani army.

The places (as confirmed by Pakistan's Dawn TV) from where the attackers belonged were Faridkot, Dera Ismail Khan, Multan, Okara, Narowal, Faisalabad, Arifwalla, Dipalpur Taluk. These are all areas that fall squarely within Pakistan.

So saying that if Kashmir is not solved, more "Mumbais" will happen is a threat with a Pakistani dimension, nothing to do with Kashmir as such.


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## Xeric

RollingStones said:


> That is the problem. You dont get it, do you? We in America do NOT believe that Indians are oppressors of Kashmiris. We think that Pakistan is the bad country here. And, we dont know what Kashmir is all about. Americans think that India is a democratic place where all religions live harmoniously. I dont know if this is true or not.



If you dont know that then how the eff you dare to comment on this?

By your stupid understanding of affairs i would assume the Iran too is a democratic country where majority of the population follow the leader blindly, but then it doesnt seem democratic to you, does it?

If you consider Pakistan so bad why dont you just hand over Kashmir to india and get the shyt cleaned? But you know what, you cant do it, because fortunately there still are few yanks how can think straight and understand the 'real' story.

i really am surprised that a country that had paid so much in the name of freedom (starting from the American civil war till GWoT) still produce such thankless breed. Man, you should have born a Jew during the Holocaust!!

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## Irfan Baloch

Reading through the comments in any thread within Kashmir forum you see a common theme and this thread is not an exception

*Indian commentators* will stress about sovereignty and integrity of India. They will dismiss right of people. They will justify the crackdown on Kashmiris. They will conveniently bypass the issue of human rights. They will lambaste the UN and call it irrelevant and its resolutions dated. More or less mimicking the attitude of President Bush (forgetting that India has a long way to go before becoming a sole super power like USA). The discussion will be deliberately derailed and lead to non-serious and off topic issues and even outright trolling. 

In any other thread or occasion, the Indians will start their sentence with their beloved democracy, the mantra of non-violence of Gandhi, criticising other countries specially China & Pakistan in particular for their human rights record etc. but there will be criminal silence or outright dismissal when the word Kashmir will be mentioned.
*
Pakistani contributors* although being the citizens of a country where democracy hardly found its roots would highlight the plight of the Kashmiris. point out the brutalities of the Indian occupation forces. Question the justification of having over a million security personal if the uprising is really only foreign instigated as claimed by India. 

*Conclusion *. Indians despite being the citizens of democracy will continue to ignore the Kashmri right of self determination. Which was very basis of the partition agreed upon Hindu & Muslim leadership with their former colonial masters.

Pakistanis will continue to remind them about the born right of freedom of a human which is the very essence of modern democracy. They will also keep shaking the Indian conscious for this forced & unjust occupation. 

*And so the debate will go on. I only hope that we as 2 neighbours are able to resolve it amicably according to the wishes of Kashmiri people and not let an outsider monkey to decide it for us because we both will loose out along with the Kashmiris.*[/COLOR]

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## Xeric

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Paritosh... Cmon man... You and I and everyone knows that Bharat has hundreds of thousands of armed forces inside Kashmir... If there were such freedom for Muslims in that region what was Indian Army doing there?



i know why, they are just fond of being thrashed with stones and getting head bumps.


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## foxbat

Irfan Baloch said:


> Reading through the comments in any thread within Kashmir forum you see a common theme and this thread is not an exception
> 
> *Indian commentators* will stress about sovereignty and integrity of India. They will dismiss right of people. They will justify the crackdown on Kashmiris. They will conveniently bypass the issue of human rights. They will lambaste the UN and call it irrelevant and its resolutions dated. More or less mimicking the attitude of President Bush (forgetting that India has a long way to go before becoming a sole super power like USA). The discussion will be deliberately derailed and lead to non-serious and off topic issues and even outright trolling.
> 
> In any other thread or occasion, the Indians will start their sentence with their beloved democracy, the mantra of non-violence of Gandhi, criticising other countries specially China & Pakistan in particular for their human rights record etc. but there will be criminal silence or outright dismissal when the word Kashmir will be mentioned.
> *
> Pakistani contributors* although being the citizens of a country where democracy hardly found its roots would highlight the plight of the Kashmiris. point out the brutalities of the Indian occupation forces. Question the justification of having over a million security personal if the uprising is really only foreign instigated as claimed by India.
> 
> *Conclusion *. Indians despite being the citizens of democracy will continue to ignore the Kashmri right of self determination. Which was very basis of the partition agreed upon Hindu & Muslim leadership with their former colonial masters.
> 
> Pakistanis will continue to remind them about the born right of freedom of a human which is the very essence of modern democracy. They will also keep shaking the Indian conscious for this forced & unjust occupation.
> 
> *And so the debate will go on. I only hope that we as 2 neighbours are able to resolve it amicably according to the wishes of Kashmiri people and not let an outsider monkey to decide it for us because we both will loose out along with the Kashmiris.*[/COLOR]




The whole post is off topic. The topic is the ongoing war between Indian Armed forces and Pakistan backed insurgents/ terrorists/ Freedom fighters and not about posting habbits of Indian (India bashing) and Pakistanis (self congratulations). 

Post reported..


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## DESERT FIGHTER

foxbat said:


> The whole post is off topic. The topic is the ongoing war between Indian Armed forces and *Pakistan backed insurgents/ terrorists/ Freedom fighters *and not about posting habbits of Indian (India bashing) and Pakistanis (self congratulations).
> 
> Post reported..



Yes we support KASHMIRIS MORALLY AND DIPLOMATICALLY...

And its not us exporting STONES OF MASS DESTRUCTION AND SLOGANS OF MASS DESTRUCTION NOR PAKISTANI FLAGS.

The real terrorists are the 7 lac indian occupying force killing unarmed KASHMIRIS!

SHAME ON INDIA.

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## foxbat

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Yes we support KASHMIRIS MORALLY AND DIPLOMATICALLY...
> 
> And its not us exporting STONES OF MASS DESTRUCTION AND SLOGANS OF MASS DESTRUCTION NOT PAKISTANI FLAGS.
> 
> The real terrorists is the 7 lac indian occupying force thts killing unarmed KASHMIRIS!
> 
> SHAME ON INDIA.



Sir.. You need to calm down. Most of your post is Unintelligible and incoherent.


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## RollingStones

xeric said:


> Did this also hold guud when Texas joined the US?



Sure...Texas can vote to secede from the United States. Today, no state within the US stays because of coercion. I've once again pointed out that land grabbing colonial times have completely different dynamics compared to agglomerations that exist today.

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## RollingStones

xeric said:


> If you dont know that then how the eff you dare to comment on this?
> 
> By your stupid understanding of affairs i would assume the Iran too is a democratic country where majority of the population follow the leader blindly, but then it doesnt seem democratic to you, does it?
> 
> If you consider Pakistan so bad why dont you just hand over Kashmir to india and get the shyt cleaned? But you know what, you cant do it, because fortunately there still are few yanks how can think straight and understand the 'real' story.
> 
> i really am surprised that a country that had paid so much in the name of freedom (starting from the American civil war till GWoT) still produce such thankless breed. Man, you should have born a Jew during the Holocaust!!



From your signature, I see that you are an extremist.Unfortunately, just like the most of the rest of my country, I too wont listen to extremists.

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## gubbi

Irfan Baloch said:


> *Raja acceeded at the point of a gun*. the very essence of democracy was the victim when the will of the people of Kashmir was totally brushed aside.



That gun, was Pakistani!

He asked India for help, India did - for a price! Nothings free!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

RollingStones said:


> From your signature, I see that you are an extremist.Unfortunately, just like the most of the rest of my country, I too wont listen to extremists.



USA is negotiating with the taliban my* indian* friend.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

gubbi said:


> That gun, was Pakistani!
> 
> He asked India for help, India did - for a price! Nothings free!



Who captured Hyderabad and junagarh not to forget other small princely states tht wanted to stay seperate?


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## Xeric

RollingStones said:


> From your signature, I see that you are an extremist.Unfortunately, just like the most of the rest of my country, I too wont listen to extremists.





Another 'black hawk' down! 

BTW, the 'rest of your country' as i have seen it by working with them overseas is MUCH better than your likes.


They always (wrongly) argued my signature wouldnt work

P.S. i never knew yankees can also read Urdu???


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## Xeric

RollingStones said:


> Sure...Texas can vote to secede from the United States. Today, no state within the US stays because of coercion. I've once again pointed out that land grabbing colonial times have completely different dynamics compared to agglomerations that exist today.



Hypocrisy, right?


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## gubbi

Irfan Baloch said:


> *Indian commentators* will stress about sovereignty and integrity of India. They will dismiss right of people. They will justify the crackdown on Kashmiris. They will conveniently bypass the issue of human rights. They will lambaste the UN and call it irrelevant and its resolutions dated. More or less mimicking the attitude of President Bush (forgetting that India has a long way to go before becoming a sole super power like USA). The discussion will be deliberately derailed and lead to non-serious and off topic issues and even outright trolling.
> 
> In any other thread or occasion, the Indians will start their sentence with their beloved democracy, the mantra of non-violence of Gandhi, criticising other countries specially China & Pakistan in particular for their human rights record etc. but there will be criminal silence or outright dismissal when the word Kashmir will be mentioned.
> *
> Pakistani contributors* although being the citizens of a country where democracy hardly found its roots would highlight the plight of the Kashmiris. point out the brutalities of the Indian occupation forces. Question the justification of having over a million security personal if the uprising is really only foreign instigated as claimed by India.
> 
> *Conclusion *. Indians despite being the citizens of democracy will continue to ignore the Kashmri right of self determination. Which was very basis of the partition agreed upon Hindu & Muslim leadership with their former colonial masters.
> 
> Pakistanis will continue to remind them about the *born right of freedom of a human* which is the *very essence of modern democracy*. They will also keep shaking the *Indian conscious* for this forced & *unjust occupation*. *Without an iota of knowledge of what Democracy really entails or what conscience or unjustness really signify!*



There corrected it for you!

Big words, aint it?

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## gubbi

xeric said:


> Hypocrisy, right?



Whats hypocrisy about what he said. It be truth.

Colonial times were different. But people in many developed countries are mature enough to see the advantages of being a part of a larger entity instead of trying immaturely to 'secede' out of a union. Advantages such as stability - both political & economic immediately come to mind. Not to mention standard of living, healthcare etc.


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## Irfan Baloch

gubbi said:


> That gun, was Pakistani!
> 
> He asked India for help, India did - for a price! Nothings free!



beg to disagree.. the Indians ensured that he made the "right" choice by signing the "friendly" Indian military was at hand to "help" the Raja in signing the accession.


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## Xeric

gubbi said:


> Whats hypocrisy about what he said. It be truth.
> 
> Colonial times were different. But people in many developed countries are mature enough to see the advantages of being a part of a larger entity instead of trying immaturely to 'secede' out of a union. Advantages such as stability - both political & economic immediately come to mind. Not to mention standard of living, healthcare etc.



i would consider you worthy of replying to when you would use your own brain instead of borrowing 'ideas' from a servitude lover!!

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## gubbi

Irfan Baloch said:


> beg to disagree.. the Indians ensured that he made the "right" choice by signing the "friendly" Indian military was at hand to "help" the Raja in signing the accession.



Wrong. You got the timeline wrong. Here's what happened in a nutshell.

Scouts rebel wanting to join Islamic Pakistan, Raja unable to suppress rebellion. Pakistan steps in to help the rebels - militarily - in the process invading the then independent state of Jammu and Kashmir.

Raja panics, turns to India for military assistance. India had much more important matters to handle than send military support for a state which was NOT a part of India. 

Raja persisted, so India and Lord Mountbatten asked the Raja to accede to India to give legitimacy for Indian military support. 

Rebels and Pakistani regulars had reached Srinagar airport. raja signed the Instrument of accession, and India sent in troops. Militants and Pakistani regulars kicked out of Srinagar to present day LOC! 

World steps in to stop conflict!


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## Irfan Baloch

gubbi said:


> Whats hypocrisy about what he said. It be truth.
> 
> Colonial times were different. But people in many developed countries are mature enough to see the advantages of being a part of a larger entity instead of trying immaturely to 'secede' out of a union. Advantages such as stability - both political & economic immediately come to mind. Not to mention standard of living, healthcare etc.




wow..
dont say that to a Flemish in Belgium or to a Scot in UK
they will rip your head off. Both the Flemish population and Scotland want independence from their "bigger" cousins. (for more details read the on going debates in Scottish parliament and the recent voting trends in Belgium)

its called the freedom of choice my dear.
if you ever happen to travel by car or plane through Luxembourg, your sneeze might outlast the total journey. i.e. its such a small state but their pride is no way smaller than Any Maha Bahrarat yelling Hindu.

the point is.. its not about the geographical size or location. its about the "freedom of choice" remember that word and write it on the wall
any self aware nation which is proud of it will keep mentioning it.
Whether you like it or not.

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## gubbi

xeric said:


> i would consider you worthy of replying to when you would use your own brain instead of borrowing 'ideas' from a servitude lover!!



Lol. You just made a retarded post. Dont you understand the difference between different eras? I just agreed with his post. Why dont you use your brain for once, TT?


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## foxbat

Irfan Baloch said:


> wow..
> dont say that to a Flemish in Belgium or to a Scot in UK
> they will rip your head off. Both the Flemish population and Scotland want independence from their "bigger" cousins. (for more details read the on going debates in Scottish parliament and the recent voting trends in Belgium)
> 
> its called the freedom of choice my dear.
> if you ever happen to travel by car or plane through Luxembourg, your sneeze might outlast the total journey. i.e. its such a small state but their pride is no way smaller than Any Maha Bahrarat yelling Hindu.
> 
> the point is.. its not about the geographical size or location. its about the "freedom of choice" remember that word and write it on the wall
> any self aware nation which is proud of it will keep mentioning it.
> Whether you like it or not.



Going out on a limb here.. Since we have broached the topic of Luxemburg, Belgium and Scotland.. none of which is disputed, what are your views on Balochistan? Do they deserve the same consideration..??


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## gubbi

Irfan Baloch said:


> the point is.. its not about the geographical size or location. its about the "freedom of choice" remember that word and write it on the wall
> any self aware nation which is proud of it will keep mentioning it.
> Whether you like it or not.



I never said anything about 'freedom of choice'. I was talking about maturity of a population. Pride does not make a people mature. Scots demand 'freedom', and yet realize that tagging along with England or as part of UK is their best bet.

No doubt there are numerous small states every where and they have always remained a footnote in history for a short period of time. Times are different now that colonization is looked down upon. However such states will always remain footnotes in history.


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## Xeric

gubbi said:


> Lol. You just made a retarded post. Dont you understand the difference between different eras? *I just agreed with his post.* Why dont you use your brain for once, TT?



Yeah right!

Grapes...sour...something like that...


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## gubbi

xeric said:


> Yeah right!
> 
> Grapes...sour...something like that...



Dude, for a TT, instead of posting stupid "smart aleck" comments, for a mature discussion's sake why dont you refute the pov? I may be a novice when it comes to such matters, so educate me as to why it may be wrong, for all that TT tag of yours stands for!

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## Irfan Baloch

gubbi said:


> Without an iota of knowledge of what Democracy really entails or what conscience or unjustness really signify!
> There corrected it for you!
> 
> Big words, aint it?




thanks your Impressiveness,

we Pakistanis never claimed to be proud of our democratic past and present. But looking at how the biggest hypocrisy ( read democracy) managed to do to the people like Sikhs, Naxils, Christians, Muslims, Dalits.. the only word that springs to mind is Ironic

your self pompous ego has gone past the busting point but that gas of false sense of superiority is continuously being inhaled. 

As your Holiness might note that we Pakistanis might not know much about democracy as your royal highness does but one thing is for sure. We will keep supporting the rights of Kashmiris the same right that our forefathers exercised and gave us an independent state.

The very title of the post is vindicating Pakistani stance and the Kashmiri struggle. Its against a forced military occupation of India by Kasmiris in the form of political & armed struggle. 

Thanks for going through the trouble of reading my posts. I hope my words are not that disturbing to your royal backside much.

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## foxbat

Irfan Baloch said:


> thanks your Impressiveness,
> 
> we Pakistanis never claimed to be proud of our democratic past and present. But looking at how the biggest hypocrisy ( read democracy) managed to do to the people like Sikhs, Naxils, Christians, Muslims, Dalits.. the only word that springs to mind is Ironic
> 
> your self pompous ego has gone past the busting point but that gas of false sense of superiority is continuously being inhaled.
> 
> As your Holiness might note that we Pakistanis might not know much about democracy as your royal highness does but one thing is for sure. We will keep supporting the rights of Kashmiris the same right that our forefathers exercised and gave us an independent state.
> 
> The very title of the post is vindicating Pakistani stance and the Kashmiri struggle. Its against a forced military occupation of India by Kasmiris in the form of political & armed struggle.
> 
> Thanks for going through the trouble of reading my posts. I hope my words are not that disturbing to your royal backside much.



I will not jump in between you and Gubbi, but the title of this post actually is a representation of lack of democracy (representative of love for dictatorship in Pakistan? )on this forum. All you need to do is to jump to the 1st post of the thread to know why..


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## Xeric

gubbi said:


> Dude, for a TT, instead of posting stupid "smart aleck" comments, for a mature discussion's sake why dont you refute the pov? I may be a novice when it comes to such matters, so educate me as to why it may be wrong, for all that TT tag of yours stands for!



Hey thickhead had your purpose not been trolling i must have 'educated' you in such a way that you'd owe your understanding to me for ever, but then replying to a stupid pov twice doesnt correct the stupidity.

i would have given you some credit had you learnt something from the replies i made to your 'mascot', but then you decided _just_ to *agree* with the DUDE!!


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## Irfan Baloch

foxbat said:


> Going out on a limb here.. Since we have broached the topic of Luxemburg, Belgium and Scotland.. none of which is disputed, what are your views on Balochistan? Do they deserve the same consideration..??



the logic of size and location was brought up hence I had to clarify

very valid point my dear. unlike your self I wont bypass it or dismiss it
yes there are grievances but they were originally against the Baloch Tribal chieftains that were selected undisputed from their seats because no one dared to oppose them.

It was their tyrannical rule and tribal customs, dealing with dissidents, the workers in the mines that actually started it was the accused who very smartly picked up the same banner and shifted it against the rest of the Balochi population. Although it was mainly against the lack of infrastructure.

I went at length about the Baloch demographics. Where as the insurgency in Balochistan is concerned it is within 2 tribes Bugthis and Marris who are leading the insurgency and they punishing the rest of the Baloch population too Resulting in Baloch exedus in rest of Pakistan.

if you want to continue that discussion then lets go to the right thread about Balochistan.

Kashmir my dear, is a different story. Like the title suggests. Its Kashmiri people vs. the Indian occupation forces.


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## gubbi

xeric said:


> Hey thickhead had your purpose not been trolling i must have 'educated' you in such a way that you'd owe your understanding to me for ever, but then replying to a stupid pov twice doesnt correct the stupidity.
> 
> i would have given you some credit had you learnt something from the replies i made to your 'mascot', but then you decided _just_ to *agree* with the DUDE!!



He made sense. You didnt. Mr TT or whatever! You never replied any sensible pov. else I would have agreed with you. 

As for name calling, I pity you.


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## foxbat

Irfan Baloch said:


> the logic of size and location was brought up hence I had to clarify
> 
> very valid point my dear. unlike your self I wont bypass it or dismiss it
> yes there are grievances but they were originally against the Baloch Tribal chieftains that were selected undisputed from their seats because no one dared to oppose them.
> 
> It was their tyrannical rule and tribal customs, dealing with dissidents, the workers in the mines that actually started it was the accused who very smartly picked up the same banner and shifted it against the rest of the Balochi population. Although it was mainly against the lack of infrastructure.
> 
> I went at length about the Baloch demographics. Where as the insurgency in Balochistan is concerned it is within 2 tribes Bugthis and Marris who are leading the insurgency and they punishing the rest of the Baloch population too Resulting in Baloch exedus in rest of Pakistan.
> 
> if you want to continue that discussion then lets go to the right thread about Balochistan.
> 
> Kashmir my dear, is a different story. Like the title suggests. Its Kashmiri people vs. the Indian occupation forces.



Thanks for the reply. I was so scared that my head would get bitten off, looking at a lot of reactions whenever Balochistan topic is brought up. 

I agree that Balochistan and Kashmir are different in nature but you will never find 2 exact same situations. The glaring similarity is that in both situations, there is a subset of the population that wants to seccede from the union and in both cases armed forces are being used by the union against those separatists. And in both cases, the union blames the neighbour for formenting the separatist fires..

Rest, we can take up in the right thread.


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## Xeric

*Thanks for the reply. I was so scared that my head would get bitten off, looking at a lot of reactions whenever Balochistan topic is brought up. *

So the purpose was to flame.


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## gubbi

Irfan Baloch said:


> thanks your Impressiveness,
> 
> we Pakistanis never claimed to be proud of our democratic past and present. But looking at how the biggest hypocrisy ( read democracy) managed to do to the people like Sikhs, Naxils, Christians, Muslims, Dalits.. the only word that springs to mind is &#8220;Ironic&#8221;
> 
> your self pompous ego has gone past the busting point but that gas of false sense of superiority is continuously being inhaled.
> 
> As your Holiness might note that we Pakistanis might not know much about democracy as your royal highness does but one thing is for sure. We will keep supporting the rights of Kashmiris the same right that our forefathers exercised and gave us an independent state.
> 
> The very title of the post is vindicating Pakistani stance and the Kashmiri struggle. Its against a forced military occupation of India by Kasmiris in the form of political & armed struggle.



Thank you for all the aggrandized words of 'honor'. I see its a habit with certain people for aggrandizing words.

Democracy is not perfect but its the best out there. No one has denied the atrocities that have occurred in the name of religion in India and people are growing out of that immaturity. (Btw, Naxals have been tagged as terrorists, so your point stands invalidated). The lame attempt at bringing in Sikh's into the picture or dalits speaks volumes about your basic understanding of Indian society. 

Let me tell you something. *India is NOT perfect*. We do not claim to be perfect. Show me one post where Indians claims to be perfect. And yet *the jostling, messy, disagreeing mass of people that is India is surging ahead in a single direction of prosperity*. That is what stands us apart from many others! That is what is meant by *Unity in Diversity*. A fact that no matter how much you people rake your brains over, will never comprehend!

That being said, I find it funny that people who have no experience of such a democracy, or introspection or raised on a constitution whcih openly discriminates against fellow humans on the basis of faith or origin tend to give "advice" about democracy, human rights and what not. The word for that, as described by any English dictionary, is Hypocrisy.

As for the tile, it may stand for Pakistan's pov. Who cares? Those 'freedom fighters' will all get dispatched to jahanaam, asap!


----------



## KS

Irfan Baloch said:


> Reading through the comments in any thread within Kashmir forum you see a common theme and this thread is not an exception
> 
> *Indian commentators* will stress about sovereignty and integrity of India. They will dismiss right of people. They will justify the crackdown on Kashmiris. They will conveniently bypass the issue of human rights. They will lambaste the UN and call it irrelevant and its resolutions dated. More or less mimicking the attitude of President Bush (forgetting that India has a long way to go before becoming a sole super power like USA). The discussion will be deliberately derailed and lead to non-serious and off topic issues and even outright trolling.
> 
> In any other thread or occasion, the Indians will start their sentence with their beloved democracy, the mantra of non-violence of Gandhi, criticising other countries specially China & Pakistan in particular for their human rights record etc. but there will be criminal silence or outright dismissal when the word Kashmir will be mentioned.
> *
> Pakistani contributors* although being the citizens of a country where democracy hardly found its roots would highlight the plight of the Kashmiris. point out the brutalities of the Indian occupation forces. Question the justification of having over a million security personal if the uprising is really only foreign instigated as claimed by India.
> 
> *Conclusion *. Indians despite being the citizens of democracy will continue to ignore the Kashmri right of self determination. Which was very basis of the partition agreed upon Hindu & Muslim leadership with their former colonial masters.
> 
> Pakistanis will continue to remind them about the born right of freedom of a human which is the very essence of modern democracy. They will also keep shaking the Indian conscious for this forced & unjust occupation.
> 
> *And so the debate will go on. I only hope that we as 2 neighbours are able to resolve it amicably according to the wishes of Kashmiri people and not let an outsider monkey to decide it for us because we both will loose out along with the Kashmiris.*[/COLOR]



Hi,

Please dont bring in Democracy into this.It only shows how much (or little) you know about Indian Democracy and what are the fundamental Rights guarenteed by the constitution on which this Democracy is based upon.


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## foxbat

xeric said:


> *Thanks for the reply. I was so scared that my head would get bitten off, looking at a lot of reactions whenever Balochistan topic is brought up. *
> 
> So the purpose was to flame.



No it was not. Irfan was being extremely nice and civilized in the discussion, so I took a chance on instinct. 

Would have not done that with you sir...


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

pundit said:


> We keep talking about Mumbai 26/11 in the context of Kashmir. It is interesting to note that all 10 terrorists were Pakistanis. They were NOT Kashmiris and certainly not Indian Kashmiris.



if anything, it's bharat which is trying to draw parallels. If your media stories are to be believed, the defunct LeT and the JuD were involved and/or conspirators of the 26/11 drama. If you know anything about those entities, you would know that among their objectives is highlighting atrocities in Kashmir as well as promoting resistance against indian occupation of Kashmir ---through charitable but also ''other'' means

LeT (if still existing) is a Kashmiri group oriented purely on Kashmir, though it also has a pan-Islamist agenda in South Asia subcontinent. 

Therefore it is silly and quite naiive for certain armchair pundits to deduce that there is no linkage between occupied Kashmir and the 26/11 attacks.





> My point is that we should not draw equivalences or attribute cause-and-effect to the wrong causes. Mumbai 26/11 happened due to Pakistani terrorist strategy and was supported by the Pakistani army.



purely your own speculation....nobody is guilty until proven innocent; thing work the opposite way unless you are not very democratic or civilized



> The places (as confirmed by Pakistan's Dawn TV) from where the attackers belonged were Faridkot, Dera Ismail Khan, Multan, Okara, Narowal, Faisalabad, Arifwalla, Dipalpur Taluk. These are all areas that fall squarely within Pakistan.



lovely areas indeed....fine spectrum and array of people from those areas. Like anywhere else in the world, surely they have a few bad apples. Unfortunately, we still have little information on those attackers and I don't think we'll ever know their true identities or from whom they were taking orders. 


both sides will never trust eachother's media, so no need to make larger "non-issues" out of some existing issues




> So saying that if Kashmir is not solved, more "Mumbais" will happen is a threat with a Pakistani dimension, nothing to do with Kashmir as such.



I actually agree with the first part, everything after the comma not so much.

best path is to solve the Kashmir issue in a fair manner that suits Kashmiri peoples....Pakistan Nation would always be ready to discuss, once the accusations, garbled chatter, etc. come to an end and india is emotionally and mentally ready to engage in such.

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## Minimalist

Irfan Baloch said:


> Reading through the comments in any thread within Kashmir forum you see a common theme and this thread is not an exception
> 
> *Indian commentators* will stress about sovereignty and integrity of India. They will dismiss right of people. They will justify the crackdown on Kashmiris. They will conveniently bypass the issue of human rights. They will lambaste the UN and call it irrelevant and its resolutions dated. More or less mimicking the attitude of President Bush (forgetting that India has a long way to go before becoming a sole super power like USA). The discussion will be deliberately derailed and lead to non-serious and off topic issues and even outright trolling.
> 
> In any other thread or occasion, the Indians will start their sentence with their beloved democracy, the mantra of non-violence of Gandhi, criticising other countries specially China & Pakistan in particular for their human rights record etc. but there will be criminal silence or outright dismissal when the word Kashmir will be mentioned.
> *
> Pakistani contributors* although being the citizens of a country where democracy hardly found its roots would highlight the plight of the Kashmiris. point out the brutalities of the Indian occupation forces. Question the justification of having over a million security personal if the uprising is really only foreign instigated as claimed by India.
> 
> *Conclusion *. Indians despite being the citizens of democracy will continue to ignore the Kashmri right of self determination. Which was very basis of the partition agreed upon Hindu & Muslim leadership with their former colonial masters.
> 
> Pakistanis will continue to remind them about the born right of freedom of a human which is the very essence of modern democracy. They will also keep shaking the Indian conscious for this forced & unjust occupation.
> 
> *And so the debate will go on. I only hope that we as 2 neighbours are able to resolve it amicably according to the wishes of Kashmiri people and not let an outsider monkey to decide it for us because we both will loose out along with the Kashmiris.*[/COLOR]



*Q *- Have most of your countrymen experienced democracy for most part of their lives?

*A* - No

*Conclusion* - There's no point debating on 'democracy' with a Pakistani or anyone else who has not experienced democracy and whatever challenges/compromises it entails for all the participants of it.

*@ My Pakistani friends:* Please try to understand our plight while debating with you. Most of you have not experienced a functioning democracy for most of your lives and hence whatever logic I or other Indians will present to you will seem superficial to you and hence is beyond your ken because, quite simply, you have not experienced what you're trying to discuss with us.

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## RollingStones

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> USA is negotiating with the taliban my* indian* friend.



Sure...if they are listenable. I am sure there are some reasonable people even within Taliban who dont want to see death being rained from above, below and all sides. I dont think the US bothers to listen to people with extreme views. It is after all futile. Why would anyone want to listen to people with extreme views? That is a stalemate situation, if there ever was one.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Trichy said:


> As per the NEWS, he(ba$ter) is arrested by *J&K POLICE* not by the *INDIAN ARMY*



THe J&K police are an unofficial branch of the Indian Army, they do as the Army say


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

RIP to the Shaheed.


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## pundit

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Therefore it is silly and quite naiive for certain armchair pundits to deduce that there is no linkage between occupied Kashmir and the 26/11 attacks.



The LeT are Pakistani Punjabis drawing recruits from the areas mentioned. The only linkage is that Pakistan desires to annex Kashmir and hopes terrorist acts will somehow coax India to do so.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> purely your own speculation....nobody is guilty until proven innocent;



This reeks of cognitive dissonance. Except for other Pakistanis, there is universal agreement in the world as to the origin of the attacks. It wasnt a bunch of guys from downtown Srinagar, it was Pakistanis.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> lovely areas indeed....fine spectrum and array of people from those areas. Like anywhere else in the world, surely they have a few bad apples.



I quoted a Pakistani source. Deny deny and then deny again. No wonder nobody takes Pakistan seriously anymore.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> both sides will never trust eachother's media, so no need to make larger "non-issues" out of some existing issues



Dawn is a Pakistani channel. I'm not quoting NDTV here. 

And don't say Mumbai was a non-issue. It was and will remain a VERY BIG deal to us. Maybe you say it to rile Indians more which is a really pathetic mockery of our victims. It feeds our resoluteness to stand up to this even more.




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> ....Pakistan Nation would always be ready to discuss, once the accusations, garbled chatter, etc. come to an end and india is emotionally and mentally ready to engage in such.



That day has come and gone. In the 80s perhaps.

To be frank, today Indians don't take Pakistan seriously as a threat anymore. The nuclear threat remains credible still, but even that is a matter of time. A poor man cannot protect his beautiful daughter for long. Such is the world.

In fact, most of the Indians on this board get a lot of schadenfreude to see Pakistan sinking deeper into debt, poverty and disgrace. I won't kick you when you're down, but you know what I'm saying.

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## Capt.Popeye

^^^
The news on sat TV is that the encounter seems to have ended and 3 terrorists have been sent on the budget airline-"Bullet Airlines" (cheapest way to fly). They are all on board now to fulfill their date with 72 virgins.
Farewell!!

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## prototype

the 72 virgins must b exhausted by now due to the numbers we r sending every yr,but they r very much waiting for kasab,he should b also sent as early as possible

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## foxbat

Azad Kashmir said:


> RIP to the Shaheed.



You misread. Only the terrorists died. No one from the armed forces was hurt.

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## Pukhtoon

???? | Awesome Protest song by Pakistani Youth Singer for the Occupied kashmir


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## Omar1984

NEW DELHI: A group of Kashmiri Hindu activists Thursday heckled and tried to prevent hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Geelani and author-activist Arundhati Roy from speaking at a seminar in the capital, prompting police to arrest a dozen of the slogan-shouting protesters. 

The activists, mainly from a Hindu group that is demanding separate land for migrant Kashmiri Pandits, shouted slogans like "Bharat Mata Ki Jai" and "Vande Mataram", leading to a ruckus at the seminar, 'Azaadi -- The Only Way', organized and attended by sympathisers of Kashmiri separatists. 

*Some Kashmiri students in Delhi countered by shouting slogans in Geelani's favour and for 'azadi' - or Jammu and Kashmir's independence from India.* 

Anticipating trouble at the pro-freedom seminar, organised by the Campaign for Relief of Political Prisoners, authorities had deployed a large number of police persons at the LTG Auditorium venue in the heart of the capital. 

As the bedlam continued and the two groups almost got into fist fights, police whisked away the activists of Panun Kashmir and detained at least 40 of them. They were later released. 

*The trouble started when the speakers advocated freedom of Jammu and Kashmir from India, condemning the alleged human rights violations by the army and security forces in the state. *

The Kashmiri Hindu protesters waved the national flag at the speakers and tried to disrupt the seminar, strongly objecting to their "anti-national" views. 

*Geelani's supporters countered with slogans like "We want freedom", "Go India Go" and "Kaun karega tarjumani, Syed Ali Shah Geelani". *

*As Roy was giving her speech in the jam-packed auditorium, asking the government not to hold Kashmir against the will of its people, the Hindu activists threw notebooks and paper missiles at her*, demanding to know if the speakers had ever raised the plight of Kashmiri Pandits when they were forced to flee their homes in the Kashmir Valley after the uprising broke out in 1989. 

Roy tried to pacify them saying whatever happened to Kashmiri Pandits was "criminal". 

*"But we also should not forget that Kashmiris cannot inhale or exhale without the breath going through the barrel of guns," she said, referring to the "heavy" presence of security forces in the Kashmir Valley. 

"India needs azadi from Kashmir as much as Kashmir needs from India,"* she said, attracting noisy protests that died down when the Booker-winning author said she was speaking for "the idea of justice system that connects us all". 

When Geelani rose to speak, the noisy protesters repeated the ruckus and objected to his speech in which he spoke of "Kashmir's complete independence from India". 

He pacified his supporters, saying their relations with the people of India were based on humanity and they should respect each other's sentiments even if they differed on ideology. 

*"Our war is with the establishment not with the people of India," he said, adding the people of India should "understand that gross human rights violations were being committed in the state in their name".* 


Kashmiri Hindu activists create ruckus at Syed Ali Geelani seminar - The Times of India


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## foxbat

Suddenly another face of Kashmir being made visible..

Just one quick question. All the big talk of Kashmiri brotherhood.. Is that only reserved for Kashmiri Muslims or does it apply to Kashmiri Pandits too?

If it does, what does this episode show you?

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## StingRoy

@foxbat... there was a thread a couple of days back where a (supposedly) kashmiri pandit asked about what plans does Pakistan have for the non-muslims who will come along with JnK (if at all it happens in my lifetime)... There were no strong answers. I am sure if you ask a similar question on this you may not get a suitable answer.

No one thinks about the brotherhood when it comes to non-muslims in Kashmir.

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## somebozo

Living proof that India has not yet evolved from hindu muslim divide which is at least a millinieum old. Grand salute to Jinnah for his forward vision!

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## Hulk

Also good that 26th Oct in Jammu will be celebrated for accession with India. People should know especially those who gives blind statement that all Kashmiri want's to seperate from India. The fact is that it is a divided verdict and not a clear verdict.

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## foxbat

somebozo said:


> Living proof that India has not yet evolved from hindu muslim divide which is at least a millinieum old. Grand salute to Jinnah for his forward vision!



At least we are braving that divide and trying to stumble our way thru it. You guys just ranaway, too scared to handle that..

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## Omar1984

*India denies Kashmiris, HR watchdogs access to UN office
​*

ISLAMABAD  Indian forces have completely denied Kashmiri public and international watchdogs access to the United Nations office for the registration of their complaints against Indias highhandedness after round-the-clock curfew was imposed last week causing food shortage in parts of the valley.

General public and the representatives of international human rights watchdogs are not allowed to visit the office of United Nations Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP) located in Sanwaar, Srinagar, for the submission of memorandums, resolutions, complaints and letters against Indian sponsored bloodshed in Indian Held Kashmir. 

TheNation on October 8, 2010 had first broken the story that India was planning to disrupt ration supplies by imposing round-the-clock curfew across the occupied Kashmir valley. The Indian army imposed twenty-four hour curfew on Tuesday, October 12 to stop food supplies to the valley and create food shortage.

During a cellular conversation with this scribe from Srinagar on Wednesday, senior Hurriyat activist and former Mujahid (freedom fighter) Nizam Shahid said that paucity of edible items was rapidly engulfing Baramula and Kupwara. He said that Baramula had witnessed unprecedented violence over the last few days and dozens of freedom activists had been recklessly martyred by the Indian forces. *You cant imagine how things are like in Baramula, the food and ration supplies are disrupted, all you can see is blood and bullets everywhere, he said. The veteran former commander categorically criticised Pakistani media for not highlighting the Kashmir issue and said that Pakistani media, with exception to Nawa-i-Waqt Group, had adopted a criminal silence to human rights violations in IHK.* 


In addition, hundreds of Kashmiri youth, who marched towards UNMOGIP office last Monday in the form of a rally, were severely tortured by the personnel of Border Security Force (BSF) and Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF). Dozens of protestors sustained injuries in the incident that had taken place near Sanwaar. 

Ironically, the UN has yet to take a stock of the grave human rights situation in IHK. Sources in UNMOGIP, Islamabad, said that despite growing Indian highhandedness, the UNMOGIP Srinagar has not formally communicated to the UN Headquarters in New York regarding denial of access to UN office by Indian army. Instead of taking the matter on emergency basis, it is learnt that the UNMOGIP in Srinagar would inform the Headquarters about the latest development through a routine monthly report that is submitted by the end of every month. Im not in knowledge of any extraordinary arrangements being made to report to New York, to this effect, a UNMOGIP official said.

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## Hulk

somebozo said:


> Living proof that India has not yet evolved from hindu muslim divide which is at least a millinieum old. Grand salute to Jinnah for his forward vision!



You are reading it upside down, fact is that Kashmiri Muslim could not tolerate a diverse view of minority Hindus and therefore they were thrown out. The fact is that it is Muslims in Kashmir who have thrown out Pandits from valley and Muslims in India elsewhere are living happily. Don't quote stupid instances to support your claim, in their common life they have no problem.

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## Hulk

Omar1984 said:


> *India denies Kashmiris, HR watchdogs access to UN office
> ​*
> 
> *You cant imagine how things are like in Baramula, the food and ration supplies are disrupted, all you can see is blood and bullets everywhere, he said. The veteran former commander categorically criticised Pakistani media for not highlighting the Kashmir issue and said that Pakistani media, with exception to Nawa-i-Waqt Group, had adopted a criminal silence to human rights violations in IHK.*



Thanks for posting this information, be kind enough to support your claim by proof, please list how many people have been killed or injured in that place to term it the way this person is describing it.

The fact is people always use exhagaratted statements like thousands of girls and womens are raped in Kashmir, fact is count is Zero between 2009 and 2010.

Fact and statement do not match.


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## Omar1984

indianrabbit said:


> Thanks for posting this information, be kind enough to support your claim by proof, please list how many people have been killed or injured in that place to term it the way this person is describing it.
> 
> The fact is people always use exhagaratted statements like thousands of girls and womens are raped in Kashmir, fact is count is Zero between 2009 and 2010.
> 
> Fact and statement do not match.




Its a statement from a person living in Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir.

You are living in the United States, what would you know thats happening in IOK.


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## StingRoy

somebozo said:


> Living proof that India has not yet evolved from hindu muslim divide which is at least a millinieum old. Grand salute to Jinnah for his forward vision!



No it is a living proof that Kashmir belongs to all Indians ... not just muslims in Kashmir.


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## Hulk

Omar1984 said:


> Its a statement from a person living in Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> You are living in the United States, what would you know thats happening in IOK.



Such statements needs to be proved, when you say there is blood all over that has to be supported by facts, so I am asking for facts.

A statement means nothing, some people are over emotional and can say things which are factually incorrect. If you look at the trend Kashmiri cry for every small little thing and does not leave any opportunity to protest. So given that it should not be difficult to prove this right?


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## somebozo

In that case the headline should be "patriotic Kashmirs create ruckus"
The divide lives deep in the mind of every Indian politician starting from duplicity of Nehru - Gandhi alliance..

Trouble makers are labeled Muslims, Islamic militants or Sunni etc etc..and everyone else is a peace loving hippie dying to join indian union! So in a nutshell only group worth the "kashmiri" identity is the pro-india mafia!



foxbat said:


> At least we are braving that divide and trying to stumble our way thru it. You guys just ranaway, too scared to handle that..


There was literally no use of being engaged in constant fight against hindu majority and nehru-gandhi duplicity. Jinnah realized that and today we are very happy!



indianrabbit said:


> Also good that 26th Oct in Jammu will be celebrated for accession with India.



But 15 august is celebrated as black day?? Seriously if majority favored accession with India, then why do we see riots and stone pelting even after 60 years??? If you are telling us that handful of leaders are trouble making and keeping 700 thousand troops engaged, then these leaders have some pretty good trick up their sleeve. Lies have no root and cannot be kept covered forever. Kashmiri riots and chants for freedom even after 60 years are a shame to Indian propaganda of world largest democracy.



indianrabbit said:


> *You are reading it upside down, fact is that Kashmiri Muslim could not tolerate a diverse view of minority Hindus and therefore they were thrown out. *The fact is that it is Muslims in Kashmir who have thrown out Pandits from valley and Muslims in India elsewhere are living happily. Don't quote stupid instances to support your claim, in their common life they have no problem.


Per se the doctrine of Indian union, that could mean minority hindu pandits ruling or Muslim majority Kashmir effectively rendering Muslims as second class. A common phenomena in today's India everywhere. I am yet to meet an India muslim which has not complained about hindu domination and control..



dezi said:


> No it is a living proof that Kashmir belongs to all Indians ... not just muslims in Kashmir.



Effectively eroding Kashmiri identity and their Islamic association as gradually depriving them of power. Hence the Kashmiris are fighting for the right of self determination.
In a nutshell, Kashmirs don't want to be Indians and be forced to share their land located at idealistic and strategic location with 800 million destitute deprived poors!


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## LaBong

somebozo said:


> In that case the headline should be "patriotic Kashmirs create ruckus"
> The divide lives deep in the mind of every Indian politician starting from duplicity of Nehru - Gandhi alliance..
> 
> *Trouble makers are labeled Muslims, Islamic militants or Sunni etc etc..and everyone else is a peace loving hippie dying to join indian union! So in a nutshell only group worth the "kashmiri" identity is the pro-india mafia!*



I guess the headline says *Kashmiri Hindus create ruckus* at Syed Ali Geelani seminar. Or are you just trying to live up to your name?

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## notsuperstitious

Fact is that in Delhi, the capital of democratic India, people are openly allowed to hold conferences named ''Azaadi -- The Only Way'' and police provide protection at such events.

There is room in this country for everyone.

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## bandit

Omar1984 said:


> Its a statement from a person living in Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir.
> .



Please take the time to read what a Kashmiri who was born and raised in Pakistani held Kashmir has to say about that region. Pakistanis talk about all they can about Indian Kashmir, but what about Pakistani Kashmir that everbody forgets?



> In most reports on Kashmir, *focus is always the
> Valley of Kashmir*, as if it was Jammu and Kashmir in totality; in fact, it is only one region of the State of Jammu and Kashmir. All regions of the State have different problems and no region can claim to represent the remaining four regions; but we have one thing in common- we are all victims.
> Because of this bias in the past reports, _where focus has always been the Valley_, the other regions of the state were neglected and_ one wrong impression emerged was that the problem was related to the Valley only_. _No doubt the Valley is very important, and people of this region have suffered the most in the past Seventeen
> years, but this does not mean that people living in other regions are not suffering__._
> *People of Gilgit and Baltistan still DONOT have those social and political rights enjoyed by their counterparts on the other side of the LOC for many decades*. This is not to suggest that people on the other side of LOC are not suffering because of militancy and presence of large number of army in the populated areas.
> Militancy and counter militancy has brought enormous problems for the people on the Indian side,* but Indian, Kashmiri and international human rights organizations have documented all this*;* and there
> is wide scale condemnation on human rights violations*.
> *Areas of Azad Kashmir and Gilgit and Baltistan were no go areas for non Kashmiris and especially Europeans*. The deadly earthquake of October last year provided an opportunity to European human rights teams to visit Azad Kashmir and see for themselves the plight of the people. *One such group Human Rights Watch produced its report a few months ago, and told the world that everything on this side of
> the LOC was not rosy even before the earthquake, and the earthquake has enormously exacerbated the misery of the local people. *Emma Nicholson's report is a first attempt (as it is not directly linked to earthquake relief work) on behalf of the international community to see what goes on inside these areas.* It is an acknowledgment that these areas- Azad Kashmir and Gilgit and Baltistan are also part of the State and that people of these areas are denied of their basic human rights.*However everything in the report is not according to our wishes (and for that matter no report could satisfy all parties completely), as it fails to talk about Kashmiri peoples right of self -determination. Question we need to ask is, is she the first person to negate our right of self- determination?* What about government of Pakistan's stand on the issue of our right of self determination- they have
> repeatedly said that Kashmiris cannot become Azad; and furthermore recent statements of General Musharaf, which clearly talk about the division of the
> State?*Dr Shabir Choudhry : Writer is Chairman Diplomatic Committee of JKLF, DirectorInstitute of Kashmir Affairs and author of many books on Kashmir.



Emma Nicholson and EU Kashmir report


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## somebozo

fateh71 said:


> There is room in this country for everyone.


And the air in that room is contaminated with burnt gun powder!


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## Contrarian

Actually Jinnah got proved wrong-the two nation theory has been proved wrong. You need to keep repeating to yourself otherwise to justify Pakistan, Indians dont.

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## StingRoy

somebozo said:


> Trouble makers are labeled Muslims, Islamic militants or Sunni etc etc..and everyone else is a peace loving hippie dying to join indian union! So in a nutshell only group worth the "kashmiri" identity is the pro-india mafia!


No, the trouble makers are those who are instigating violence and ransacking public property, they are those who come from across our borders from "stateless" territories and use masjids for launching attacks on our forces... the only group worth Kashmiri tag are the peaceful ones who can learn to live like the rest in the country.



> There was literally no use of being engaged in constant fight against hindu majority and nehru-gandhi duplicity. Jinnah realized that and today we are very happy!


We can see how happy you are... but if you say so ... let it be the truth.



> But 15 august is celebrated as black day?? Seriously if majority favored accession with India, then why do we see riots and stone pelting even after 60 years??? If you are telling us that handful of leaders are trouble making and keeping 700 thousand troops engaged, then these leaders have some pretty good trick up their sleeve. Lies have no root and cannot be kept covered forever. Kashmiri riots and chants for freedom even after 60 years are a shame to Indian propaganda of world largest democracy.


The 700 k troops are engaged in order to prevent another 1947, 1965 and 1999 where our "friendly" neighbors challenged our sovereignty.



> Per se the doctrine of Indian union, that could mean minority hindu pandits ruling or Muslim majority Kashmir effectively rendering Muslims as second class. A common phenomena in today's India everywhere. I am yet to meet an India muslim which has not complained about hindu domination and control..


Without the risk of being arrogant, I haven't met any Indian Muslim who has complained about living in India.



> Effectively eroding Kashmiri identity and their Islamic association as gradually depriving them of power. Hence the Kashmiris are fighting for the right of self determination.
> In a nutshell, Kashmirs don't want to be Indians and be forced to share their land located at idealistic and strategic location with 800 million destitute deprived poors!


No one is eroding their identity. They are living as the rest of us are living and they have equal rights to being in the center of power like the rest of us and unlike the people of P0K.

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## S_O_C_O_M

*India parallels terror with Kashmir dispute​*
Hameed Shaheen 

21 Oct 2010 


ISLAMABAD: India has taken a new cat out of her rusty box of intransigence to confront Pakistan with re-tailored issue of terror equating it as substantive as the long outstanding UN-recognized dispute over Jammu and Kashmir. Redefining the range of unsettled issues with Pakistan, India announced Tuesday to start an incremental, graduated and forward looking process to normalize relations with Pakistan. 

Addressing a seminar The Future of India-Pakistan Relations in New Delhi the Indian Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao is reported to have said: The issue of terrorism arising out of the sub-conventional conflict directed by Pakistan against India for over two decades now, cannot be ignored either. It is as substantive an issue as the issue of Jammu and Kashmir or the issue of the Siachen Glacier. 

Veterans in the capital here having a sharp eye over the complex South Asian affairs are of the view that Indian Foreign Secretarys latest statement is a strong indication that New Delhi wants to supersede the old unsettled dispute over Jammu and Kashmir with its new concoction according substantive status in any future talks with Pakistan to the so-called terror, condemned at several time publicly by Islamabad. 

In the same breath the Foreign Secretary says: While there can be no guarantees for success (of talks), such an approach seeks to build first on what is achievable and simultaneously to also address the more intractable issues in a sustained manner. 

Analysts interpret it as a pre-judged failure of any future bilateral Indo-Pak talks showing clearly India stands at the same brink where she stood 63 years ago with in-between series of collapsed talks on Kashmir dispute and other unresolved issues with Pakistan. 

Analysts recall that despite Pakistans repeated calls, New Delhi has been spurning a recourse to the resumption of composite dialogue having already consumed on it eight rounds both at the Foreign Secretaries and Foreign Ministers levels in Islamabad and New Delhi alternatively. India now prefers precedence of terror issue over the composite dialogue relegating the central dispute of Jammu and Kashmir under the terror debate din. 

The Indian Foreign Secretary also spoke about the potential benefits that might accrue from Indias economic relations with Pakistan with a gentle refrain of criticism over Pakistan not according most favored nation treatment to India and not allowing transit facility for Indian trade expansion to Afghanistan and beyond to the Central Asian bowl. 

Kashmir Watch :: In-depth coverage on Kashmir conflict


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## DesiGuy

very sad, indeed.


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## CONNAN

US rejects Pakistan's request to intervene in Kashmir dispute - Hindustan Times



The United States has refused to intervene into the Kashmir issue as requested by Pakistan, saying this should be resolved bilaterally between New Delhi and Islamabad. "We recognise the importance of Kashmir to both countries. We absolutely want to see tensions eased and ultimately a resolution to situation in Kashmir," State Department spokesman P J Crowley said at a news conference at the Foreign Press Center.

"That we believe needs to come through additional dialogue between Pakistan and India. We have not been asked by both countries to play a particular role," he said.

"But this is the reason why, for a number of reasons we continue to encourage further dialogue between India and Pakistan," Crowley said in response to a question.

Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi had yesterday urged the US to help it resolve the Kashmir dispute with India. "It is in the interest of lasting peace, stability and development of the region that the US works for the resolution of disputes in South Asia.

This has to begin with justice for the Kashmiri people," Qureshi had said. Qureshi is leading a high-powered Pakistani delegation for the third US-Pakistan Strategic Dialogue being held in Washington.


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## Minimalist

somebozo said:


> Living proof that India has not yet evolved from hindu muslim divide which is at least a millinieum old. Grand salute to Jinnah for his forward vision!



Jinnah had a lot of other visions also, are you sure your country has upheld all (or even some) of them?

How 'bout the word 'secular' for a start? Wasn't that also one of Jinnah's visions?


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## foxbat

somebozo said:


> There was literally no use of being engaged in constant fight against hindu majority and nehru-gandhi duplicity. Jinnah realized that and *today we are very happy!*



Are you? My understanding is that there are more sectarian killings in Pakistan compared to anything of that sort in India. You guys love to bring up Gujrat and 1984 riots and some idiotic crime against christians, but if you realize, these are scattered incidents in India.. Where as in Pakistan you keep hearing the shia-sunni, Muslim-Ahmadi, Muhajir - non muhajir crap going on almost every week.

But it looks like that keeps you happy..

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## foxbat

If there is any doubt left

Kashmir internal matter of India: Timothy Roemer - India - DNA

In a snub to Pakistan, the US today said Kashmir is an internal matter of India which will only decide when to take it up bilaterally with Islamabad.

"*We duly note that this (Kashmir) is an indigenous and internal issue to India and when India decides to take this issue on they will do it in a bilateral sense with Pakistan, at the appropriate scope, level and pace they want to engage in,*" US ambassador to India Timothy Roemer told Karan Thapar on Devil's Advocate programme for CNN-IBN.

He said that the US deeply regretted the injuries, loss of lives, damage to property and the difficulties that have taken place this last summer in Kashmir.

*Roemer also recalled that President Barack Obama had clearly told his Pakistan counterpart Asif Ali Zardari that the US will not be part of any military build up against India.*

"US will not be part of any kind of military build up against the people of India. Let me be clear Mr Zardari," Roemer said, quoting Obama from a recent book authored by Bob Woodward.

Roemer pointed out that Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has been favouring a stable Pakistan as it was in India's interest so that it can grow at 8-9&#37; a year and have more inclusive growth.

Seeking to allay India's apprehensions on US arms sale to Pakistan, he said the weapons were targeted at terrorists and not at India and the American Congress will ensure that they are used for the intended purpose.

"Some of the arms sales the US has to Pakistan are geared to counter-insurgency efforts to concentrate on the cancer and on the terrorism internally that can further destabilise Pakistan that is not in India's interest at all. Therefore these weapons are targeted at terrorists not at India," Roemer said.

Asked how the US would ensure that the weapons sold to Pakistan are not used against India, Roemer said the American Congress would make sure that the arms are used for intended purposes.

The envoy also pointed out that the India-US Caucus has 40 senators as members who could act as a pressure group to ensure that the arms sold to Pakistan are used against terrorists.

"*Forty percent of the Senate is part of the India-US caucus... They will ensure that the weapons are used for their intended purposes,*" Roemer said.

On reports that US authorities were aware of David Headley planning the Mumbai attack, he said American investigators had "regularly and consistently" shared intelligence inputs on 26/11 with India.

"There was no delay, we shared the information on 26/11. We shared it regularly, consistently," Roemer said.

The US had also given Indian investigators "unfettered access" to question Headley in the US, a step which he termed as "extraordinary".

He sought to dismiss differences over outsourcing as "small irritants" and pointed out that over the years India has moved from being the 25th largest trading partner of the US to the 14th biggest partner.

"Let us talk about 99% of the US-India commerce and trade story which is positive or strategic relationship," was Roemer's refrain.

On US concerns over the civil nuclear liability bill, he said the disagreements and concerns will have to be ironed out in the future.


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## indushek

Quaid e Azam's dream of having a secular Islamic state was blown away the second he breathed his last breath. A great man who was a visionary but also hard, he though he could carve out a state which was truly secular. Little did he realize that the people with vested interests would take over his dream nation and make it hell on earth within mintutes of his passing away.


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## flameboard

There's the promised change ladies and gentlemen, same policies nothing new.


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## Minimalist

flameboard said:


> There's the promised change ladies and gentlemen, same policies nothing new.



To be fair to the US, there's little they can do as far as coercing India into anything on Kashmir is concerned.

All they could do was push India to talk to Pakistan which they did. Beyond this, quite frankly, there's little they can do.


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## Je suis de retour

I think pakistan shouldnt have expected this from US at first place.
It shows clearly how much Pakistans leadership mis-understood indian influence in world over.
Sooner they open eyes, its better.


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## Xeric

My my, we have a migratee among us...

Anywaz,


pundit said:


> The LeT are Pakistani Punjabis drawing recruits from the areas mentioned. The only linkage is that Pakistan desires to annex Kashmir and hopes terrorist acts will somehow coax India to do so.


Nah nah..!

You see what, LeT is banned in Pakistan, for us they dont exist. Our govt has not supported them nor did the military. i know you would try to link every shyt happening inside india with ISI but then you cant even prove Kasab's linkage with our military what to talk of Kashmiri freedom fighters.

Abu's reply was in connection to a stupid school of thought prevailing amongst a few indians that mumbai attack had nothing to do with Kashmir. Infact, the attack was directly linked to Kashmir and that's what Abu had said.

So you see, Kashmir is a problem which leads to the birth of organizations like LeT. So i think, any sane mind would try to hit the root-cause of a problem then just trimming away the branches, i know you have started to get the idea around here 





> This reeks of cognitive dissonance. Except for other Pakistanis, there is universal agreement in the world as to the origin of the attacks. It wasnt a bunch of guys from downtown Srinagar, it was Pakistanis.


Again wrong.

Why dont you show us this 'universal agreement' ASAP?

Quoting sources from 'dot in' wouldnt suffice.

i dont see the US telling us to stop 'infiltration', though we usually see TOI and NDTV telling us about some imaginary infiltration attempt being foiled, and it gets even better when they are unable to catch a single infiltrator but still are able to pin point their source of origin, color, race and creed!!



> I quoted a Pakistani source. Deny deny and then deny again. No wonder nobody takes Pakistan seriously anymore.


You are so funny man.
Ha
Ha
Ha



> And don't say Mumbai was a non-issue. It was and will remain a VERY BIG deal to us.



Had it been REALLY a 'very big deal' to you, you definietly would have taken some serious steps to get the Kashmir issue resolved but then we saw the otherwise happening - your soldiers being thrashed with stones.



> Maybe you say it to rile Indians more which is a really pathetic mockery of our victims. It feeds our resoluteness to stand up to this even more.


Death of innocents should always be regretted and mumbai is no exception to this. But then unfortunately we dont see any concrete steps being taken from this happening again - concrete step bolay tuu....resolving the root-cause, the Kashmir Issue itself!




> To be frank, today Indians don't take Pakistan seriously as a threat anymore. The nuclear threat remains credible still, but even that is a matter of time. A poor man cannot protect his beautiful daughter for long. Such is the world.


Oh...i am shivering!

No wonder you people dont talk of Akhand Bharat no more! 



> In fact, most of the Indians on this board get a lot of schadenfreude to see Pakistan sinking deeper into debt, poverty and disgrace. I won't kick you when you're down, but you know what I'm saying.



i think we just refused a WB and ADB loan.

May be this is not enough, ofcourse it is not enough, but then you know what, it's the first step!

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## MYSTIC

Syed Ali Geelani testing the limits of democracy. If India is such a fascist state why are people like him still alive? How is he even allowed to give hate speeches against India with full police protection?

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## KindlyCruel

I wish those Kashmiri Hindus had weapons...


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## Infinity

Its Democracy.You have your right to express your thoughts.


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## Fasih Khan

*Writing On the Wall for India. They are fighting a lost battle. Kashmir Issue Insha' Allah would mark up Soviet Like Division of India. Insha' Allah ul Aziz.*


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## KS

How can the evil,ungrateful Kashmiri Hindu Pandits do such a thing..?

How can they ask him that they want their homes,ancestral lands back which is now under the safe maintenance of Kashmiri Muslims,while these Hindus are living in utmost luxury as IDPs?

After all was it not the great man Geelani and his AK wielding coterie who ensured full protection of their lives,homes,properties etc during the early 90s in Kashmir Valley.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Can anyone tell me what Geelani's opinion is the Pandits?


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## KS

^^^ Infidels who are not fit to be in the Valley of the Pure.

He might publicly say that his heart pains for them - but his actions say otherwise.


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## Minimalist

Infinity said:


> Its Democracy.You have your right to express your thoughts.



Freedom of speech works both ways and even then there is a clear demarcation line between freedom of speech and open sedition:

Section 124A of the Indian Penal Code defines the offence of sedition as follows: Sedition. Whoever by words, either spoken or written, or by signs, or by visible representation, or otherwise, brings or attempts to bring into hatred or contempt, or excites or attempts to excite disaffection towards, the Government established by law in India, shall be punished with imprisonment for life, to which fine may be added, or with imprisonment which may extend to three years, to which fine may be added, or with fine. But Explanation 3 says Comments expressing disapprobation of the administrative or other action of the Government without exciting or attempting to excite hatred, contempt or disaffection, do not constitute an offence under this section.


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## Imran Khan

why should we bring them we are brothers and we can solve our home mess. keep out whites between us .we understand each other better then them.

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## Pride

It looks like US is now with us as well against WoT.. isn't it??

@Imran Bhai: I see many times Kashmir issue as dispute happens in our villages where a piece of land is sometimes stuck up between 2 brothers which they fight generation and generation..

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## Imran Khan

Pride said:


> It looks like US is now with us as well against WoT.. isn't it??



us is not with anyone bro they are with there interest.

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## Imran Khan

Pride said:


> @Imran Bhai: I see many times Kashmir issue as dispute happens in our villages where a piece of land is sometimes stuck up between 2 brothers which they fight generation and generation..



whatever bro its our matter look what they make mess up in palstine issue keep them out. UN may be ok but US no need , tell them go fix there own matter is afghanistan iraq and others.

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## Pride

Imran Khan said:


> us is not with anyone bro they are with there interest.



I know Bro.. I was kidding.. They r not with anyone and that is the reason they are going to lose in long run.. Current example is biggest economic downfall.. 

When it comes against US vs Asia then we all are together like India-China were on same side against US for Environment policy..


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## Pride

Imran Khan said:


> whatever bro its our matter look what they make mess up in palstine issue keep them out. UN may be ok but US no need , tell them go fix there own matter is afghanistan iraq and others.



Absolute true.. we need nobody's help to resolve this.. we have still better situation in comparison to what they did in Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine, Vietnam etc..

I also dont consider UN as a supreme body which have logical and rational existance and need to meddle.. It has lost its purpose way back.. is samay to iska haal wahi hai "Jiski Laathi Uski Bhains" lol


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## Imran Khan

Pride said:


> I know Bro.. I was kidding.. They r not with anyone and that is the reason they are going to lose in long run.. Current example is biggest economic downfall..
> 
> When it comes against US vs Asia then we all are together like India-China were on same side against US for Environment policy..



i dont know how much dump are these zardari guys. we should try to finish the us influence rather then bring them more inside in our homes


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## greatsequence

somebozo said:


> Living proof that India has not yet evolved from hindu muslim divide which is at least a millinieum old. Grand salute to Jinnah for his forward vision!



Iqbal for the matter of the fact who wrote letters upon letters to Quaid and convinced him to comeback and lead the cause.


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## somebozo

> "That we believe needs to come through additional dialogue between Pakistan and India. We have not been asked by both countries to play a particular role," he said.



Nothing was asked to begin with..just headline play typical of toi-let media!


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## RobbieS

greatsequence said:


> Iqbal for the matter of the fact who wrote letters upon letters to Quaid and convinced him to comeback and lead the cause.



And both of them were proved wrong.


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## MYSTIC

No wonder Europeans are very strict with muslim immigrants. Whenever they are a minority they ask for secularism and shout human rights violation, but when they are a majority the break all the human rights violation and either kill, forcefully convert or drive the minority out of their lands. This is the reason why EU countries are unwilling to accept Turkey as a member state (even though it is considerably moderate than other muslim countries).


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## Spring Onion

NOT Kashmiri hindus but Indian RSS fanatics. they tried to attack Gilani sahab but Kashmiri Youth were protecting


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## Skies

Get seriously desperate and attack India in everywhere - soon India will leave you. Otherwise there is no light at the end of the tunnel.


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## Minimalist

Skies said:


> *Get seriously desperate and attack India in everywhere* - soon India will leave you. Otherwise there is no light at the end of the tunnel.



Been there, done that. What do you think has been happening for the past two decades?


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## Spring Onion

Minimalist said:


> Been there, done that. What do you think has been happening for the past two decades?



Kashmiris have NOT staged any attack in India so far. I am afraid if India continue killing Kashmiris in Country of Kashmir occupied by Indian army, then Kashmiris might resort to attacking Indian cities.


That will be forceful


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## Fireurimagination

Jana said:


> Kashmiris have NOT staged any attack in India so far. I am afraid if India continue killing Kashmiris in Country of Kashmir occupied by Indian army, then Kashmiris might resort to attacking Indian cities.
> 
> 
> That will be forceful



LOL Separatist/Pakistan have tried the gun before but you know what our gun was bigger and better. You can out match fire power of Indian army and India only in your dreams

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## Spring Onion

*RSS attempt to attack Gilani foiled*


NEW DELHI: I*n New Delhi, the hooligans of extremist Hindu organization, Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, made a failed attempt to attack veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Gilani, at a seminar on Kashmir, today.

According to reports, when the veteran leader reached the venue of the seminar, the RSS people rushed to assault him.
*
*However, their plan failed when a group of enthusiastic Kashmiri youth encircled Syed Ali Gilani and shielded him from attack. The incident was followed by forceful anti-India and pro-liberation slogans, which reverberated the seminar hall continuously for half an hour.*

The event was organised by the Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners and those who spoke on the occasion included Syed Ali Gilani, Arundhati Roy, Professor Abdur Rehman, Professor Sujatha Rao, Najeeb Bukhari, Dr Sheikh Showkat Hussain, Varvara Rao and Dr N. Venu. The majority of speakers stressed the need for an early resolution of the Kashmir dispute while denouncing the human rights violations by Indian troops in the occupied territory.

*On the other hand, Indian troops pressed gunship choppers into service during a clash with Mujahideen at Maloora Shalteng in the outskirts of Srinagar, today. Two Kashmiri youth were martyred in the gun battle, which was underway till last reports came in.*

The authorities imposed curfew and strict restrictions in Srinagar and all other districts of the valley in a bid to thwart Lal Chowk March, call for which had been given by the forum patronized by Syed Ali Gilani. Indian police resorted to brute force to quell peaceful protesters in Habba Kadal in Srinagar and near Cement Bridge in Baramulla town.

On the occasion of the death anniversary of Agha Syed Yousuf Al-Moosvi Al-Safvi, APHC leader, Agha Syed Hassan Al-Moosvi, addressing a function in Budgam, said that the mission of late religious leader would be continued against all odds.

The Norwegian Parliament has issued a schedule to debate the Kashmir dispute from November 15 taking serious note of the human rights violations in occupied Kashmir. The reports said that the Norwegian Foreign Minister would release a policy statement on Kashmir after the debate.

RSS attempt to attack Gilani foiled - GEO.tv


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## Minimalist

Jana said:


> Kashmiris have NOT staged any attack in India so far. I am afraid if India continue killing Kashmiris in Country of Kashmir occupied by Indian army, then Kashmiris might resort to attacking Indian cities.
> 
> That will be forceful



Kashmir is India and India is kashmir...at least for us!

If they attack other cities, they will be attacking themselves.


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## Fireurimagination

Jana said:


> NOT Kashmiri hindus but Indian RSS fanatics. they tried to attack Gilani sahab but Kashmiri Youth were protecting



Your Gilani sahab was saved by the evil Hindoo police or he would have been thrashed like crazy by kashmiris

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## Spring Onion

Minimalist said:


> Kashmir is India and India is kashmir...at least for us!
> 
> If they attack other cities, they will be attacking themselves.



My dear Patrician the problem is Kashmiris do not think so.

They have their own country Kashmir which is occupied by India. The world do not consider Kashmir as part of India.

Its a disputed country which is bone of contention in the region.

If Kashmir country was not freed from Indian occupation, it can lead to nuclear war as is predicted by Indian army chief


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## Minimalist

Jana said:


> country Kashmir



Leave everything, explain these two words to me...please!


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## Irfan Baloch

foxbat said:


> Thanks for the reply. I was so scared that my head would get bitten off, looking at a lot of reactions whenever Balochistan topic is brought up.
> 
> I agree that Balochistan and Kashmir are different in nature but you will never find 2 exact same situations. .




I am always open for debate & learn
I must say I have respect for some of Indian members here who go at length to make their point of view & I admire the effort. You can tell when its a mere copy paste & yadi yadi yada or when it is really is a peace worth reading & responding to.

What you just said about giving Balochistan as an example is I have been saying all along. There are never two exactly similar situations but some similarities on which you build an argument. Otherwise no lawyer will be able to quote a case of Mrs Puja Vs Mr Sherma related to land dispute in say Calcutta if the judge dismisses it saying that your client is called Muna Bhai and the dispute relates to Delhi.

You responding to my post when I mentioned small but proud and independent countries which in fact was a response to an Indian poster questioning this whole struggle based on its size & geographical location. Something similar which Henry Kissinger very arrogantly remarked about Bangladesh. Which contrary to his scorn Bangladesh is very much on the world map, yes it has its issue but it will outlast Mr Kissinger & his ill placed arrogance.

Coming back to main topic again, you might note that the Kashmiri uprising has turned mainly against the atrocities of the Indian security forces and their magnitude. The impact of their operations on the daily lives, the extrajudicial killings the shanakhat parade (Identification parade)of whole villages and communities followed by arrests of Kasmiri men and then their mutilated/ tortured bodies by the side of the roads.

The problem is in such a mass scale, and the sentiments are so high & problem is so grave and out of control for Indian security forces that there is a blanket bar on the international media & human right groups to see the situation themselves. The Pakistan & the Pakistani Kashmiris find it mandatory to keep shaking the Indian conscious to address this issue. because in the end it is us who will need to a fix this problem. No other super power of past, present or future can care less about our regional issues unless there is something in it for them.

I will continue to pray for this peaceful resolution for the sake of all people of this subcontinent. I hope we can resolve our issues like mature & progressive nations.


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## Irfan Baloch

xeric said:


> My my, we have a migratee among us...
> 
> Anywaz,
> 
> Nah nah..!
> 
> You see what, LeT is banned in Pakistan, for us they dont exist. Our govt has not supported them nor did the military. i know you would try to link every shyt happening inside india with ISI but then you cant even prove Kasab's linkage with our military what to talk of Kashmiri freedom fighters.
> 
> Abu's reply was in connection to a stupid school of thought prevailing amongst a few indians that mumbai attack had nothing to do with Kashmir. Infact, the attack was directly linked to Kashmir and that's what Abu had said.
> 
> So you see, Kashmir is a problem which leads to the birth of organizations like LeT. So i think, any sane mind would try to hit the root-cause of a problem then just trimming away the branches, i know you have started to get the idea around here
> 
> ....resolving the root-cause, the Kashmir Issue itself!



Haha nicely put Bro . resolve the root cause and all the disputes will go


----------



## Spring Onion

Minimalist said:


> Leave everything, explain these two words to me...please!



What you dont understand ?

Kashmir is separate country that is occupied by India.


----------



## Minimalist

Jana said:


> What you dont understand ?
> 
> Kashmir is separate country that is occupied by India.



Ya that's what I'm asking an explanation of.

How and when did Kashmir become an independent country?

Which organisation/countries recognise it as an independent country?

Even if I acceot your argument for a second, then that makes so-called Azad Kashmir also a free country occupied by Pakistan.


----------



## foxbat

Jana said:


> My dear Patrician the problem is Kashmiris do not think so.
> 
> ....
> 
> *If Kashmir country was not freed from Indian occupation, it can lead to nuclear war as is predicted by Indian army chief*



So Be It..Bring it on...

So are you telling me Pakistan is foolish enough to enter Nuclear war to liberate a 3rd country? Nah! No matter how much folks here blast the GoP, niether them not Pakistan Army is a Defence.pk groupie..

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## Irfan Baloch

Minimalist said:


> *Q *- Have most of your countrymen experienced democracy for most part of their lives?
> 
> *A* - No
> 
> *Conclusion* - There's no point debating on 'democracy' with a Pakistani or anyone else who has not experienced democracy and whatever challenges/compromises it entails for all the participants of it.
> 
> *@ My Pakistani friends:* Please try to understand our plight while debating with you. Most of you have not experienced a functioning democracy for most of your lives and hence whatever logic I or other Indians will present to you will seem superficial to you and hence is beyond your ken because, quite simply, you have not experienced what you're trying to discuss with us.





Another smart Arse
hello your royal stupidness.. that is the dilemma for you that you are unable to admit. That despite being a biggest democracy you cant digest the fact that the rights of democracy (people power) apply to Kasmiris as well. and the people from a country mostly ruled by dictators will have to come and teach you.

I must admit though that being a citizen of a dysfunction democracy it is really hard for me to understand that a *thing like you is talking about democracy out of your mouth or out of your backside when you have an avatar of a biggest fascist and mass murderer*. Are you planning to apply his 3rd Reich philosophy in India? and call it democracy? You are laughable and pathetic.

*Request to all*. I invite every able & willing member to mock this Buffoon who is proclaiming his superior Democratic wisdom & has declared it as a forbidden fruit for us while supporting Hitlers picture as his avatar. A self defeating plonker springs to mind

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## KS

Irfan Baloch said:


> Another smart Arse
> hello your royal stupidness.. that is the dilemma for you that you are unable to admit. That despite being a biggest democracy you cant digest the fact that the rights of democracy (people power) apply to Kasmiris as well. and the people from a country mostly ruled by dictators will have to come and teach you.
> 
> I must admit though that being a citizen of a dysfunction democracy it is really hard for me to understand that a &#8220;*thing&#8221; like you is talking about democracy out of your mouth or out of your backside when you have an avatar of a biggest fascist and mass murderer*. Are you planning to apply his 3rd Reich philosophy in India? and call it democracy? You are laughable and pathetic.



Hi,

Actually I see you use the world "Democracy" far too liberally to justify the demand for secession in Kashmir ..albeit through a more chic word - Right to Self Determination.

I was wondering what gave you the idea that Democracy entails its citizens a Right to Secession from the country.I am not sure about the "Pakistani" notion of Democracy,but here in India our constitution (the basis for our Democracy) doesnt give you that right.

These six are the fundamental rights enshrined ion our constitution:
*
1. The right to equality*


> Equality before law: Article 14 of the constitution guarantees that all citizens shall be equally protected by the laws of the country. It means that the State cannot discriminate against a citizen on the basis of caste, creed, colour, ***, religion or place of birth




*2. The right to freedom* (No..Not that "Freedom")

Under this there are 6 sub-divisions:


Freedom of speech and expression
Freedom to assemble peacefully without arms,
Freedom to form associations or unions on which the State can impose reasonable restrictions on this freedom in the interest of public order, morality and the sovereignty and integrity of India.
Freedom to move freely throughout the territory of India
Freedom to reside and settle in any part of the territory of India
Freedom to practice any profession or to carry on any occupation, trade or business

*3. The right to freedom from exploitation*


> The right against exploitation, given in Articles 23 and 24, provides for two provisions, namely the abolition of trafficking in human beings and Begar (forced labor), and abolition of employment of children below the age of 14 years




*4. The right to freedom of religion*



> Right to freedom of religion, covered in Articles 25, 26, 27 and 28, provides religious freedom to all citizens of India.



*5. Cultural and educational rights*


* 6. The right to constitutional remedies*



> Right to constitutional remedies empowers the citizens to move a court of law in case of any denial of the fundamental rights



====================================

*Now no-where does the constitution guarentee a right to an individual or a group of individuals to demand secession from the Union Of India.*

===============================================

*This thread of "Insurgents vs Indian Army" has just transformed by "Abu,Irfan" taking the role of Pro-Freedom Insurgents and me taking the role of "Indian Army"*


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## Irfan Baloch

Karthic Sri said:


> Hi,
> 
> Actually I see you use the world "Democracy" far too liberally to justify the demand for secession in Kashmir .
> 
> *2. The right to freedom* (No..Not that "Freedom")
> 
> 
> 
> *3. The right to freedom from exploitation*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ====================================
> 
> *Now no-where does the constitution guarentee a right to an individual or a group of individuals to demand secession from the Union Of India.*
> 
> ===============================================
> 
> *This thread of "Insurgents vs Indian Army" has just transformed by "Abu,Irfan" taking the role of Pro-Freedom Insurgents and me taking the role of "Indian Army"*



Thanks you just said it. and its the very essence. the desire and will of the people
by the way I find the name twisting by yourself disappointing moving on if this debate remains nonviolent and civil it doesnt matter if you become a spokesperson of Indian occupation forces and I become the representative of the Kashmiri Freedom movment.


Have a good day

Irfan Baloch (not Abu Irfan)

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## Jade

*J&K integral part of India
*
New Delhi: Taking a swipe at Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, without naming him, for his controversial remarks in the Assembly that Jammu and Kashmir had only acceded to India under certain conditions and not merged with it, Congress president Sonia Gandhi asserted that the state was an integral part of India and had a special place in our polity.

Referring to violence and tension in J&K in the past few months, she noted that this situation arose after many years during which there was growing stability and successful democratic elections.

Jammu and Kashmir has a special place in our polity. It is an integral part of India and peace in this region is of paramount importance. While violence is not a solution and must be contained, the anger manifesting itself amongst Kashmiri youth in particular must also be addressed. We must respect their legitimate aspirations, Sonia said in her letter to the Congress members in the latest issue of party mouthpiece Congress Sandesh .

She said PM Manmohan Singh had taken effective steps to reach out by calling an all-party meeting in Delhi, which was followed by the visit of an all-party delegation led by the Home Minister. We hope that continued dialogue and the concrete policy initiatives which have been announced by the government on September 4 will lead to an end to the ongoing cycle of violence, said the Congress president. Incidentally, she did not make any reference to the partys coalition partner National Conference or the CM in her letter.

Crediting people of the country for receiving the Allahabad High Court verdict on Ramjanmabhoomi-Babri Masjid title suits in a mature and peaceful manner, she said the ruling in no way condoned the demolition of Babri Masjid, which was a shameful and criminal act for which the perpetrators must be brought to justice.

_________________________________________________

A very important remark from the country's most powerful politician


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## Spring Onion

jade1982 said:


> [
> 
> A very important remark from the country's most powerful politician



 ghisa pitta redundant remark as usual from all Indian invader politicians with regard to IOK (Indian Occupied Kashmir) 


It has no importance

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## foxbat

I remember Asim or TechLahore making a comment somewhere that P0K and I0K are not acceptable terms on the forum. The correct terms are AK and J&K. Is that rule still in effect?


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## Jade

It is against our own ethos to actually throw a shoe at anyone including Mr. Gelaani. Freedom of speech has to be protected no matter how unpalatable the person is. After all he is an Indian and the constitution has given the right to disagree with state. If he is abusing his right it the duty of the judiciary to look into it.

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## Spring Onion

foxbat said:


> I remember Asim or TechLahore making a comment somewhere that P0K and I0K are not acceptable terms on the forum. The correct terms are AK and J&K. Is that rule still in effect?



I have not read them saying this about IoK.

As its Azad Kashmir with own PM, President, Flag, Constitution hence there is NO question of using word O for AJK.

On the other hand we and the world considers IOK as occupied territory with no such arrangement as AJK hence IOK is there.


----------



## RollingStones

xeric said:


> My my, we have a migratee among us...
> 
> Anywaz,
> 
> Nah nah..!
> 
> You see what, LeT is banned in Pakistan, for us they dont exist. Our govt has not supported them nor did the military. i know you would try to link every shyt happening inside india with ISI but then you cant even prove Kasab's linkage with our military what to talk of Kashmiri freedom fighters.
> 
> Abu's reply was in connection to a stupid school of thought prevailing amongst a few indians that mumbai attack had nothing to do with Kashmir. Infact, the attack was directly linked to Kashmir and that's what Abu had said.
> 
> So you see, Kashmir is a problem which leads to the birth of organizations like LeT. So i think, any sane mind would try to hit the root-cause of a problem then just trimming away the branches, i know you have started to get the idea around here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again wrong.
> 
> Why dont you show us this 'universal agreement' ASAP?
> 
> Quoting sources from 'dot in' wouldnt suffice.
> 
> i dont see the US telling us to stop 'infiltration', though we usually see TOI and NDTV telling us about some imaginary infiltration attempt being foiled, and it gets even better when they are unable to catch a single infiltrator but still are able to pin point their source of origin, color, race and creed!!
> 
> 
> You are so funny man.
> Ha
> Ha
> Ha
> 
> 
> 
> Had it been REALLY a 'very big deal' to you, you definietly would have taken some serious steps to get the Kashmir issue resolved but then we saw the otherwise happening - your soldiers being thrashed with stones.
> 
> 
> Death of innocents should always be regretted and mumbai is no exception to this. But then unfortunately we dont see any concrete steps being taken from this happening again - concrete step bolay tuu....resolving the root-cause, the Kashmir Issue itself!
> 
> 
> 
> Oh...i am shivering!
> 
> No wonder you people dont talk of Akhand Bharat no more!
> 
> 
> 
> i think we just refused a WB and ADB loan.
> 
> May be this is not enough, ofcourse it is not enough, but then you know what, it's the first step!



Xeric..you are getting tiresome with your outlandish assertions. Pakistan is indeed in a terrible shape. Instead of focusing on eliminating the scourge called terrorism, it has created several of them because of poorly regulated schools and entry/exit procedures. In Mumbai attacks, a Jewish center was attacked and foreigners were deliberately targeted. Is this the Kashmir strategy - to go kill foreigners? Then, I am all the more against Kashmiri nonsense then. You dont see Tibetans going around killing people to make a point, do you? Yet Tibetans have a far higher traction when it comes to getting the message across than the Kashmiris ever have.

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## Jade

Jana said:


> ghisa pitta redundant remark as usual from all Indian invader politicians with regard to IOK (Indian Occupied Kashmir)
> 
> 
> It has no importance



It is more important than either your remarks or mine....It is simple... she is the most powerful politician in India and her party rules the country


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## Malik Usman

Truth is coming out..............nobody can hide the truth for a long......now even from the tongue of Omar Abdullah the "Pupet of Indian Govt."


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## foxbat

Jana said:


> I have not read them saying this about IoK.
> 
> As its Azad Kashmir with own PM, President, Flag, Constitution hence there is NO question of using word O for AJK.
> 
> On the other hand we and the world considers IOK as occupied territory with no such arrangement as AJK hence IOK is there.



I will let them only validate and invalidate this thing. BTW is J&K refered to as IOK in any of the UN documents. I dont think so. SO you cant use a slur against India but then expect to avoid a return slur.

The world cosiders J&K as occupied as AK and Northern areas. so hash that arguement..

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## foxbat

RollingStones said:


> Xeric..you are getting tiresome with your outlandish assertions. Pakistan is indeed in a terrible shape. Instead of focusing on eliminating the scourge called terrorism, it has created several of them because of poorly regulated schools and entry/exit procedures. In Mumbai attacks, a Jewish center was attacked and foreigners were deliberately targeted. Is this the Kashmir strategy - to go kill foreigners? Then, I am all the more against Kashmiri nonsense then. You dont see Tibetans going around killing people to make a point, do you? Yet Tibetans have a far higher traction when it comes to getting the message across than the Kashmiris ever have.



Wait for the rant on why America is against China and hence Tibetans have a higher traction.


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## INDIAN007

*Kashmir * part of INDIA

Jammu, Oct 22 (IBNS) Jammu and Kashmir is very much a part of India since the former princely ruler Maharaja Hari Singh had signed the Instrument of Accession with India as all other states after the Independence, said Congress MP and statesman Karan Singh at a seminar in Jammu.

*The heir of the ruler of the pre-Independence princely state of Jammu and Kashmir said Kashmir had always enjoyed a special status under Article 370 and had its separate constitution, but remained a part of India after accession.
*

"Jammu and Kashmir signed the same instrument of accession as other states," he said, adding that it makes the state a part of India though it had not formally merged.

Jammu and Kashmir chief minister Omar Abdullah had questioned the status of Jammu and Kashmir earlier, saying that the state hadn't merged with India but only acceded.

The Instrument of Accession that the former princely states of India had signed is a legal document that was also executed by Maharajah Hari Singh, ruler of the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir, on 26 Oct 1947.

With the formal acceptance of the Governor General of India, it settled the question of the accession of the Jammu and Kashmir princely state (including Jammu, Kashmir, Northern Areas, Ladakh, Trans-Karakoram Tract and Aksai Chin) to the Dominion of India. 

Kashmir part of India: Karan Singh


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## Minimalist

WoW...I didn't know Karan Singh is the heir of Maharaja Hari Singh.


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## KS

Irfan Baloch said:


> Thanks you just said it. and its the very essence. the desire and will of the people



Huh...where did I say so.. or for that matter where the Rights say so..



Irfan Baloch said:


> by the way I find the name twisting by yourself disappointing moving on if this debate remains nonviolent and civil it doesnt matter if you become a spokesperson of Indian occupation forces and I become the representative of the Kashmiri Freedom movment.



Which name twisting sir.?? All I said was in good humour.So does that mean you think it below yourself to be associated with "Pro-Freedom Insurgents" 




Irfan Baloch said:


> Irfan Baloch (not Abu Irfan)



Arey bhai...by "Abu,Irfan" i meant Abu Zolfiqar and Irfan Baloch ,two of the regular posters in this thread. No offence meant.


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## INDIAN007

*Jammu groups to celebrate accession day Oct 26*

Jammu, Oct 21 (IANS) Several organisations are planning to organise functions and rallies in the Jammu region of Jammu and Kashmir to celebrate the state's accession to India 63 years ago.

The last Dogra king of Jammu and Kashmir Maharaja Hari Singh had signed the instrument of accession Oct 26, 1947. The accession was later ratified by the Constituent Assembly of the state in 1956.

The Jammu Province People's Forum (JPPF), the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), the Jammu and Kashmir National Panthers Party (JKNPP) and several other groups have decided to hold a series of programmes marking the accession day Oct 26.

'We will hold rallies, organize seminars and other public functions to mark the occasion,' said JPPF convenor Ramesh Singh.

He told reporters that 'this is an historic occasion and we must celebrate it in a big way.'

Bhim Singh, chairman of the JKNPP, announced that his party will organize functions across the region Oct 26 to 'celebrate the state's accession to India'.

'The Maharaja (Hari Singh) had taken a conscious decision of linking the fate of Jammu and Kashmir with India and that's something we all need to celebrate.'

The BJP too has started preparations for celebrating the day.

It is for the first time in many years that organisations in the Jammu region have decided to celebrate the accession day in such a big fashion. 

Jammu groups to celebrate accession day Oct 26


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## mehboobkz

Pakistan has lost its economical focus and has developed Kashmir focus since partition. The result being, while India has acheived much more GDP (PPP wise India is fourth largest), Pakistan is nowhere but failed state as per WIKI. Google

Thanks only to Kashmir, which will still le dubega Pakistan.......

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## Minimalist

So much for "Kashmir means whole of J&K"

Kashmir means valley people because ladakh, Jammu, Kargil etc. have no will whatsoever to destroy their lives for the misguided notion of 'Azaadi' of some.


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## Irfan Baloch

RollingStones said:


> In Mumbai attacks, a Jewish center was attacked and foreigners were deliberately targeted. Is this the Kashmir strategy - to go kill foreigners? .



my boy, 
sadly for the victims familes the invesitgation was suddenly halted when the bullets were found to be fired by the guns normally used by the security forces.
shame that when the news came up of the possible hand of the security foces in the killing of the Jewish victims it was all hushed up

nothing new to be honest. Americans just managed to do it recently when they killed the British abductee with a hand grenade and initially blamed it on taliban

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## RollingStones

Jana said:


> *RSS attempt to attack Gilani foiled*
> 
> 
> NEW DELHI: I*n New Delhi, the hooligans of extremist Hindu organization, Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, made a failed attempt to attack veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Gilani, at a seminar on Kashmir, today.
> 
> According to reports, when the veteran leader reached the venue of the seminar, the RSS people rushed to assault him.
> *
> *However, their plan failed when a group of enthusiastic Kashmiri youth encircled Syed Ali Gilani and shielded him from attack. The incident was followed by forceful anti-India and pro-liberation slogans, which reverberated the seminar hall continuously for half an hour.*
> 
> The event was organised by the Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners and those who spoke on the occasion included Syed Ali Gilani, Arundhati Roy, Professor Abdur Rehman, Professor Sujatha Rao, Najeeb Bukhari, Dr Sheikh Showkat Hussain, Varvara Rao and Dr N. Venu. The majority of speakers stressed the need for an early resolution of the Kashmir dispute while denouncing the human rights violations by Indian troops in the occupied territory.
> 
> *On the other hand, Indian troops pressed gunship choppers into service during a clash with Mujahideen at Maloora Shalteng in the outskirts of Srinagar, today. Two Kashmiri youth were martyred in the gun battle, which was underway till last reports came in.*
> 
> The authorities imposed curfew and strict restrictions in Srinagar and all other districts of the valley in a bid to thwart Lal Chowk March, call for which had been given by the forum patronized by Syed Ali Gilani. Indian police resorted to brute force to quell peaceful protesters in Habba Kadal in Srinagar and near Cement Bridge in Baramulla town.
> 
> On the occasion of the death anniversary of Agha Syed Yousuf Al-Moosvi Al-Safvi, APHC leader, Agha Syed Hassan Al-Moosvi, addressing a function in Budgam, said that the mission of late religious leader would be continued against all odds.
> 
> The Norwegian Parliament has issued a schedule to debate the Kashmir dispute from November 15 taking serious note of the human rights violations in occupied Kashmir. The reports said that the Norwegian Foreign Minister would release a policy statement on Kashmir after the debate.
> 
> RSS attempt to attack Gilani foiled - GEO.tv



I was just reading the other article and clearly it says that the people shouting slogans against this leader are also kashmiris. I am not sure who or what RSS is, but this story is completely twisted. If this is the level of journalism in pakistani newspapers, no wonder most people cant get a good picture of what is happening in the outside world. I for one think that extremely bad information flow into and out of pakistan is one of the reasons that country has been pushed to the dark ages and has become a launching ground for terrorist attacks around the world. The first thing, at least in my opinion, is to make sure that principles of natural justice and unbiased news gets reported and analyzed in pakistan.

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## majesticpankaj

Irfan Baloch said:


> my boy,
> sadly for the victims familes the invesitgation was suddenly halted when the bullets were found to be fired by the guns normally used by the security forces.
> shame that when the news came up of the possible hand of the security foces in the killing of the Jewish victims it was all hushed up
> 
> nothing new to be honest. Americans just managed to do it recently when they killed the British abductee with a hand grenade and initially blamed it on taliban


source of both the accusation.......


----------



## KS

Irfan Baloch said:


> sadly for the victims familes the invesitgation was suddenly halted when the bullets were found to be fired by the guns normally used by the security forces.
> shame that when the news came up of the possible hand of the security foces in the killing of the Jewish victims it was all hushed up



Cmon...you are much more than posting fanboyish conspiracy theries just to score a brownie point.


----------



## Areesh

foxbat said:


> I will let them only validate and invalidate this thing. BTW is J&K refered to as IOK in any of the UN documents. I dont think so. SO you cant use a slur against India but then expect to avoid a return slur.
> 
> The world cosiders J&K as occupied as AK and Northern areas. so hash that arguement..



IOK is a fact and isn't banned on this forum. What else can we say for an occupied territory except calling it occupied.


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## Areesh

When the so called document of accession by illegitimate ruler green singh is also illegitimate so who is this karan singh to give his opinion about IOK.


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## LaBong

What? Is Mumbai still a ploy to kill Karakare? :s


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## foxbat

Areesh said:


> IOK is a fact and isn't banned on this forum. What else can we say for an occupied territory except calling it occupied.



Are you a pseudoname of either of the 2 gentlemen I mentioned? I think not. So if I am mistaken, let them or the Mod team clarify. People like you and me anyway cant decide what is allowed and what is not.


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## Areesh

foxbat said:


> Are you a pseudoname of either of the 2 gentlemen I mentioned? I think not. So if I am mistaken, let them or the Mod team clarify. People like you and me anyway cant decide what is allowed and what is not.



Lolzzz. Genius it is very easy to decide let me write Indian occupied kashmir. Look. IOK IOK IOK. Now you right the the so called PO* without using zero in between. 

Indians are too .....


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## Irfan Baloch

Jana said:


> I have not read them saying this about IoK.
> 
> As its Azad Kashmir with own PM, President, Flag, Constitution hence there is NO question of using word O for AJK.
> 
> On the other hand we and the world considers IOK as occupied territory with no such arrangement as AJK hence IOK is there.



whats more, there is no million storng army to suppress the protests and daily lives of the people in the Azad Kashmir

the only protests of the free Kashmir happening are in support of their brothers in Indian occupied Kashmir. a clear difference here

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## Irfan Baloch

Karthic Sri said:


> Arey bhai...by "Abu,Irfan" i meant Abu Zolfiqar and Irfan Baloch ,two of the regular posters in this thread. No offence meant.




I dont believe you pinoccio!!!
put your hand on your elongated lying nose (or heart) and say again that it was not meant to be a swipe at Arabian name that starts with Abu..

although I must say there is a comma in between but so is the email address in outlook. 
damn you you just almost got me reported by pulling me off topic.


Azad Kashmir Zindabad
Indo Pak Sanity Zindabad


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## Irfan Baloch

Minimalist said:


> *Q *- Have most of your countrymen experienced democracy for most part of their lives?
> 
> *A* - No
> 
> *Conclusion* - There's no point debating on 'democracy' with a Pakistani or anyone else who has not experienced democracy and whatever challenges/compromises it entails for all the participants of it.
> 
> *@ My Pakistani friends:* Please try to understand our plight while debating with you. Most of you have not experienced a functioning democracy for most of your lives and hence whatever logic I or other Indians will present to you will seem superficial to you and hence is beyond your ken because, quite simply, you have not experienced what you're trying to discuss with us.





Another smart Arse
hello your royal stupidness.. that is the dilemma for you that you are unable to admit. That despite being a biggest democracy you cant digest the fact that the rights of democracy (people power) apply to Kasmiris as well. and the people from a country mostly ruled by dictators will have to come and teach you.

I must admit though that being a citizen of a dysfunction democracy it is really hard for me to understand that a &#8220;*thing&#8221; like you is talking about democracy out of your mouth or out of your backside when you have an avatar of a biggest fascist and mass murderer*. Are you planning to apply his 3rd Reich philosophy in India? and call it democracy? You are laughable and pathetic.

*Request to all*. I invite every able & willing member to mock this Buffoon who is proclaiming his superior Democratic wisdom & has declared it as a forbidden fruit for us while supporting Hitler&#8217;s picture as his avatar. A self defeating plonker springs to mind

====
Oh you sill got your democratic Hitler? I guess it is becase you havent been drilled by other members yet

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## KS

Irfan Baloch said:


> I dont believe you pinoccio!!!
> put your hand on your elongated lying nose (or heart) and say again *that it was not meant to be a swipe at Arabian name that starts with Abu..*
> 
> although I must say there is a comma in between but so is the email address in outlook.
> damn you you just almost got me reported by pulling me off topic.



 I can keep my hand on anything and say so. 

Anyways I Dont know Arabic and whats the connotation of the name Abu In Arabic.Can you please clarify....Just for curiosity purpose.




Irfan Baloch said:


> Azad Kashmir Zindabad -
> 
> 
> Indo Pak Sanity Zindabad -


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## foxbat

Areesh said:


> Lolzzz. Genius it is very easy to decide let me write Indian occupied kashmir. Look. IOK IOK IOK. Now you right the the so called PO* without using zero in between.
> 
> Indians are too .....



Dude, I am not talking about whether its banned from the system or not. I remember one of them making this statement that we should be using AK and J&K as they are the internationally accepted names. I am just waiting for one of them to clarify.

Pakistan Occupied Kashmir... Banned word.. No.. Acceptable.. No as well.. 

Dont get too stuck up in the system


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## foxbat

Irfan Baloch said:


> whats more, there is no million storng army to suppress the protests and daily lives of the people in the Azad Kashmir
> 
> the only protests of the free Kashmir happening are in support of their brothers in Indian occupied Kashmir. a clear difference here



Same place the so called Azad Kashmir, where most independent observers find more violations of human rights and less freedom (ironical) than the Indian side.. 

Reference: Recent EU report on Kashmir (Pakistan tried its level best to prevent it from being tabled in the EU parliament. Didnt work)

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## Infinity

Minimalist said:


> Freedom of speech works both ways and even then there is a clear demarcation line between freedom of speech and open sedition:
> 
> Section 124A of the Indian Penal Code defines the offence of sedition as follows: Sedition. Whoever by words, either spoken or written, or by signs, or by visible representation, or otherwise, brings or attempts to bring into hatred or contempt, or excites or attempts to excite disaffection towards, the Government established by law in India, shall be punished with imprisonment for life, to which fine may be added, or with imprisonment which may extend to three years, to which fine may be added, or with fine. But Explanation 3 says Comments expressing disapprobation of the administrative or other action of the Government without exciting or attempting to excite hatred, contempt or disaffection, do not constitute an offence under this section.



Sir,

why isnt this applicable for our natas who talk on basis of religion, region, caste


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## foxbat

Irfan Baloch said:


> Another smart Arse
> hello your royal stupidness.. that is the dilemma for you that you are unable to admit. That despite being a biggest democracy you cant digest the fact that the rights of democracy (people power) apply to Kasmiris as well. and the people from a country mostly ruled by dictators will have to come and teach you.



Irfan.. I have a strong disagreement with this. I think democracy is being used in this arguement as a license for everyone to do whatever he/she wants. Thats not democracy. No democracy in the world allows a small set of people to decide on cutting off a part of the country. By definition, democracy refers to the rule of majority. And the denominator for majority here is all the citizens of the country of the age above the age of voting. The crux of democracy is the oneness of the nation. Else tomorrow the colony I live in can get together with all of its 2000 residents and vote for it becoming a seperate nation. I know the example is a little extreme, but boundary conditions help in establishing the validity of the arguement..


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## Urbanized Greyhound

Perhaps it is time for our law enforcement agencies to act decisively on people like Geelani and Arundhuti Roy for inciting trouble and violence.The way it looks their sole objective seems to be using the guise of "human rights" and "freedom of speech" , to spread *malice* exclusively for Radicals and fundamentalists . Our covert agencies should aggressively retaliate with counter -propaganda . Our ideals of plurality and tolerance should be taken seriously.


----------



## pundit

xeric said:


> You see what, LeT is banned in Pakistan, for us they dont exist.



It's like trying to hide a whole pumpkin in a plate of rice. Sure you can pretend not to see it.



xeric said:


> Infact, the attack was directly linked to Kashmir and that's what Abu had said.



It's linked to Pakistan's lust for Indian territory. There were zero Kashmiris among the 10 gunmen. 



xeric said:


> Had it been REALLY a 'very big deal' to you, you definietly would have taken some serious steps to get the Kashmir issue resolved ..



Ostensibly Pakistan pulled this terrorist stunt thinking that Indians will immediately run to the table for talks on Kashmir. This must pass for strategic thinking in Pakistan which kind of explains your overall general situation.



xeric said:


> Oh...i am shivering!



Possibly its the cold weather ! LOL

I dryly stated how the Pakistani threat is not credible anymore since your country is now featuring on the top 10 list of failed states. It's essentially circling the drain. Like I said, some schadenfreude for Indians, vindication of our position even.

Point being, we are in a position of strength and are consolidating our gains every day. Each day that Pakistan is NOT able to do something on it's Kashmir claim is one *more* day India gets stronger. Perhaps there was an inflexion point sometime in the early 90's. Pakistan missed that bus. Sorry.



xeric said:


> i think we just refused a WB and ADB loan.



Let me know if you need help re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

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## Minimalist

RollingStones said:


> I was just reading the other article and clearly it says that the people shouting slogans against this leader are also kashmiris. I am not sure who or what RSS is, but this story is completely twisted. If this is the level of journalism in pakistani newspapers, no wonder most people cant get a good picture of what is happening in the outside world. I for one think that extremely bad information flow into and out of pakistan is one of the reasons that country has been pushed to the dark ages and has become a launching ground for terrorist attacks around the world. The first thing, at least in my opinion, is to make sure that principles of natural justice and unbiased news gets reported and analyzed in pakistan.



Well that tends to happen when you fail at 'problem identification', the first stage towards solution of any problem.


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## Minimalist

Irfan Baloch said:


> Another smart Arse
> hello your royal stupidness.. that is the dilemma for you that you are unable to admit. That despite being a biggest democracy you cant digest the fact that the rights of democracy (people power) apply to Kasmiris as well. and the people from a country mostly ruled by dictators will have to come and teach you.
> 
> I must admit though that being a citizen of a dysfunction democracy it is really hard for me to understand that a *thing like you is talking about democracy out of your mouth or out of your backside when you have an avatar of a biggest fascist and mass murderer*. Are you planning to apply his 3rd Reich philosophy in India? and call it democracy? You are laughable and pathetic.
> 
> *Request to all*. I invite every able & willing member to mock this Buffoon who is proclaiming his superior Democratic wisdom & has declared it as a forbidden fruit for us while supporting Hitlers picture as his avatar. A self defeating plonker springs to mind
> 
> ====
> Oh you sill got your democratic Hitler? I guess it is becase you havent been drilled by other members yet



Monsieur Baloch, your diatribe is testimony to the futility of any feat intended to convey to you the staggered march of a democracy from being incipient to being accomplished.

Another tranche of cognition you piteously fail at is the discernment that even the vilest of men may possess some commendable features of persona.

Hence, kindly pardon my inability for it is beyond my pedagogic skills to make you realize something that is, very sadly, beyond your ken.


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## desiman

malaymishra123 said:


> Actually Jinnah got proved wrong-the two nation theory has been proved wrong. You need to keep repeating to yourself otherwise to justify Pakistan, Indians dont.



wow well said malay, awesome one liners lol


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## mehboobkz

*Take up Kashmir with New Delhi, not us: US to Pakistan*


The United States has refused to intervene in the Kashmir issue as requested by Pakistan, saying this should be resolved bilaterally between New Delhi and Islamabad.

Pakistan is incapable of wrestling away Kashmir, nor is superpower out there to help it, so now what?¿


Take up Kashmir with New Delhi, not us: US to Pakistan)

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## Minimalist

How Azad is Azad Kashmir actually?

What's the use of having a PM/Flag etc. when you can't make your own policies (foreign or defence), when the PM has to take oath in the name of allegiance to the occupier country??

Azad or Sham?

Moreover, I've seen people calling Kashmir as a separate country occupied by India, does that not make Pakistan also an occupier for it also 'occupies' Azad Kashmir?

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## desiman

greatsequence said:


> Iqbal for the matter of the fact who wrote letters upon letters to Quaid and convinced him to comeback and lead the cause.



The two nation theory is a flawed one, nations cannot be built on religion and that is a fact. Religion will always oppose a proper democratic infrastructure and without non religious constitution, a state can never function properly. Jinnah's dream was to create a separate state for Muslims but the point he himself got wrong was that huge divisions that exist within Muslims themselves, Shia's wont talk to Sunnis, Ahmadias are not even regarded as Muslims etc etc. We still dont know what Iqbal and Jinnah had in mind as either their writing's were to vague or too less. Jinnah early demise multiplied the fact that his theory is still pretty much flawed. Only he knew where he wanted to take Pakistan, all others have no idea at all. India's multicultural outlook, however flawed it is, continues to grow in leaps and bounds mainly because religion can never overtake the central government. Fact of the matter, nations cannot be formed on the basis of religion.

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## Irfan Baloch

Minimalist said:


> Hence, kindly pardon my inability for it is beyond my pedagogic skills to make you realize something that is, very sadly, beyond your ken.



sorry i missed that.
what did you say?

*On a serious note*
I kneel to your sad-arsed Shakespearian farce. Whats next going to make an account with the avatar of Stalin talking about delicacies of Humanity & birth rights?




> Another tranche of cognition you piteously fail at is the discernment that even the vilest of men may possess some commendable features of persona.



Come again.....? Yet you refuse to allow us to mention democracy? Now thats self defeating your own argument. By the way if I share this overloaded quote of yours with a descendent of a Holocaust victim then he will smite your rectum so hard that it will reside between your shoulder blades for the rest of your physical existence.


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## Minimalist

desiman said:


> The two nation theory is a flawed one, nations cannot be built on religion and that is a fact. Religion will always oppose a proper democratic infrastructure and non religious constitution, a state can never function properly. Jinnah's dream was to create a separate state for Muslims but the point he himself got wrong was that huge divisions that exist within Muslims themselves, Shia's wont talk to Sunnis, Ahmadias are not even regarded as Muslims etc etc. We still dont know what Iqbal and Jinnah had in mind as either their writing's were to vague or too less. Jinnah early demise multiplied the fact that and his theory is still pretty much flawed. India's multicultural outlook, however flawed it is, continues to grow in leaps and bounds mainly because religion can never overtake the central government. Fact of the matter, nations cannot be formed on the basis of religion.



Whatever little chance the two-nation theory had of succeeding was thrashed to the bin the day Pakistan became an Islamic republic (as oppposed to the vision of its founder) and relegated its minorities to second class citizenship.


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## Adios Amigo

Minimalist said:


> How Azad is Azad Kashmir actually?
> 
> What's the use of having a PM/Flag etc. when you can't make your own policies (foreign or defence), when the PM has to take oath in the name of allegiance to the occupier country??
> 
> Azad or Sham?
> 
> Moreover, I've seen people calling Kashmir as a separate country occupied by India, does that not make Pakistan also an occupier for it also 'occupies' Azad Kashmir?



Before starting such a thread, first search out the meanings of occupation??

Now coming to how azad it is!! It is a separate state, with its own constitution, own assembly, own flag, own president, own PM, own cabinet, almost everything a country needs. But yes its not a separate country, its people have decided to be a part of Pakistan, therefore Pakistan safeguards its frontiers, as it would do to any other of its parts. Now you wont see its people fighting against Pakistan army, nor them protesting against Pakistan, nor them burning Pakistan Flag as every now and then, neither would you see hundreds and thousands of Army men marching down it its streets daily, to suppress any movement. Every thing is calm and every one is contended.Compare that to Indian occupied Kashmir and a blind can come up with an answer,"who is azad and who is being occupied?" 

Now the whole point in providing them with every thing is that the whole Kashmir Region(both IOK and AJK) is an disputed territory. And the whole populous should decide whom they want to live with! India or Pakistan or Independent. We respect their rights but can and would you?? But why would you, when your macho Army is doing a fine job while defining the term "occupation" with a new meaning!

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## Pratik

Minimalist said:


> Whatever little chance the two-nation theory had of succeeding was thrashed to the bin the day Pakistan became an Islamic republic (as oppposed to the vision of its founder) and relegated its minorities to second class citizenship.



More than that its the creation of 
Bangladesh that proved religion(Islam ) cann't keep a nation together.

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## Urbanized Greyhound

Current Pakistani idea of the Kashmir and the two-nation-theory in relation to it is based on marginalizing all minorities even if at a certain point in history they had a 40&#37;+ share in the population and establishing a radical version of Islam , similar to the one established in most of Pakistan today. They use the azaadi claim and justification where it suits their purpose of Kashmir acceding to Pakistan , but they conveniently forget all about the Pandits , other minorities ,issues of economic development , Kashmiri right to an independant parlianment and head of state who does not have to toe the Islamabad line.

these are points they keep carefully silent or ambiguous about, and stir people up in a frenzy in the wave of "alleged Indian atrocities" .......


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## sensenreason

somebozo said:


> Living proof that India has not yet evolved from hindu muslim divide which is at least a millinieum old. Grand salute to Jinnah for his forward vision!



Poor soul might turn in his grave when he sees the utter desperation of Pastuns, Sindhi's, Balochis and Kashmiri's in Pak occupied kashmir.


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## Areesh

foxbat said:


> Dude, I am not talking about whether its banned from the system or not. I remember one of them making this statement that we should be using AK and J&K as they are the internationally accepted names. I am just waiting for one of them to clarify.



Well if it is banned on the system than it is obvious what they believe about IOK and AJK. If you aren't allowed to write that dumb work about AJK than it means it is AJK and everyone is supposed to say that being a ground reality. And if I am allowed to say IOK as IOK than it is because of your illegitimate occupation of the state.

This is what the mods believe.




> Pakistan Occupied Kashmir... Banned word.. No.. Acceptable.. No as well..



Is PO* allowed? No. So it is obvious what they believe about this unreal rant.



> Dont get too stuck up in the system



It is better to stuck in the system than asking farce questions.


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## VCheng

How about just PK and IK, just to make discussions more dispassionate?


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## foxbat

Areesh said:


> Well if it is banned on the system than it is obvious what they believe about IOK and AJK. If you aren't allowed to write that dumb work about AJK than it means it is AJK and everyone is supposed to say that being a ground reality. And if I am allowed to say IOK as IOK than it is because of your illegitimate occupation of the state.


Again, I am waiting for one of the gentlemen I mentioned to correct my mistake, if I am indeed mistaken. For a very large period of time on this forum, saying the Pa** word was not blocked, but still was not tolerated. . So your arguement doesnt work.



Areesh said:


> This is what the mods believe.



I believe they can say that themselves.





Areesh said:


> It is better to stuck in the system than asking farce questions.



I believe, its better to let the people to whom a question is addressed answer it instead of being presumptuous and jumping in.


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## Spring Onion

VCheng said:


> How about just PK and IK, just to make discussions more dispassionate?



This will multiply the entire Kashmir tussle with big ZERO. Which means NO Passionate or Dispassionate discussion in the first place.

If it was the case we would not have been having millions of Indian invader army in Occupied J&K neither we would have Kashmiri civilians coming on roads including women in protest with just stones in hands against Indian terrorist army with most deadly made in Israel weapons. 


The bottom line is Sir that for Kashmiris *"Patriotism is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime" for Azadi from invaders.*

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## Spring Onion

foxbat said:


> For a very large period of time on this forum, saying the Pa** word was not blocked, but still was not tolerated. . So your arguement doesnt work.



Because the admins were still hoping Indians will refrain from abusing thats why but when you did not then it was blocked.

So if Pa** word is blocked on this forum so is Bhin**.

So stop crying foul.


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## foxbat

Jana said:


> Because the admins were still hoping Indians will refrain from abusing thats why but when you did not then it was blocked.
> 
> So if Pa** word is blocked on this forum so is Bhin**.
> 
> So stop crying foul.



I dont know why all of you are jumping down my throat. I had a recollection of a statement and refered to it. May be I am wrong and the person in question will clarify it. Give it a chance..


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## Hulk

City Muslims support Kashmiri Pandits

Hurriyat hawk Syed Ali Shah Geelani had an agenda on his Delhi visit. Sadly, for him, he would have to remain an unsatisfied man.Though it was not the first time that somebody tried to communalise the Kashmir issue, it was probably the first time by somebody from the Hurriyat

However, Geelani's evil designs not just met with shoe that was hurled at him at a meeting in the national capital. *He also got a rude shock when people from the Muslim community showed up with a group of Kashmiri Pandits who reached a seminar at the LTG Auditorium on Copernicus Marg, being attended by Geelani and Naxal supporters like Arundhati Roy*.

*Nasim Akhtar, 40, is one of the city Muslims who had joined the representatives of the displaced community in protesting against the Hurriyat hardliner*.Parliament attack accused Prof SAR Geelani had organised the seminar and the subject was Kashmir's 'azaadi'.

"These Pandits are living with me for the last many years. I can understand their pain of being separated from their motherland. The separatists have done great injustice with them. Even if they want a free Kashmir, it could not be made on the basis of religious discrimination," Akhtar, leader of a traders association in Karol Bagh, told MiD DAY. 

"People like Geelani must know that divisive agenda cannot succeed," he said. Akhtar said he wanted Geelani to know that what he was doing is wrong. *"They breathe in India's air, they wear clothes made in India, they eat food grown in India, the live on Indian land then how could they talk against India. If they want to quit India then I dare them to stop using everything that is Indian."*

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## somebozo

^^^
why is every news from india communalised in a muslim vs xxxxxx tone?? When selections like Kashmiri hindus, Kashmiri pundits, sepratist muslims are used it sets a clear tone of blowing reality of fake indian unity!!


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## Omar1984

*Pak laments world's 'deafening silence' over Kashmir killings
​*

WASHINGTON  Pakistans Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi Wednesday regretted the international communitys deafening silence over the brutal suppression of the Kashmiri people, as he sought justice for them. Any person of conscience cannot ignore the use of brute force against the defenceless Kashmiri youth, he told a big gathering at Brookings Institute, a Washington-based American think-tank.

The United States and other so-called defenders of human rights have not said a single word about the Indian security forces clampdown on Kashmir where people have been staging mass demonstrations in support of their right to self-determination.

Qureshi said that Pakistan desired a peaceful and stable South Asia, but that prospect was endangered by the recent events in Kashmir, where more than 100 people, mostly teenagers, have been gunned down by security forces.

Their mothers are rightly bewildered at the deafening silence of the international community, the Foreign Minister said.

Wisdom proposes that the aspirations of any people cannot be suppressed by the use of force. Such will be with the legitimate rights of the Kashmiri people. It is in the interest of lasting peace, stability and development of the region, that the US works for resolution of disputes in South Asia. This has to begin with justice for the Kashmiri people, Qureshi added.

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## silent hill

no human rights activists here????, no tv channel coverage, if somebody does suiside bomb or people are killed by drone attacks, it makes world wide coverage


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Geelani: India wants to kill time through holding talks ​*
TopNews 
Written by KMS 
Friday, 22 October 2010 14:29 







New Delhi, October 22, 2010: Chairman of All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) Syed Ali Shah Geelani, while refusing to hold talks with the newly appointed team of interlocutors by India, has said that India is not sincere in holding meaningful and result-oriented dialogue but it is its another attempt to kill the time.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani addressing a seminar in New Delhi organised by the Committee for Release of Political Prisoners said, All previous dialogue processes with India have failed without solving the issue as New Delhi didnt want to find out amicable solution to the Kashmir dispute.

He reiterated that the Kashmir dispute could be resolved only through right of Self-Determination and the people of Occupied State of Jammu and Kashmir (OSJK) should be given a chance to determine their fate. He said that Kashmir was not an internal dispute but an international one and added the interlocutors should be boycotted. He informed the audience that Kashmiri youth were being targeted by Indian police and paramilitary forces during the peaceful protest demonstrations.

Earlier, noted Indian author, Arundhati Roy, expressed solidarity with the people of Occupied State of Jammu and Kashmir in their fight for justice and right of Self-Determination.

After taking over the control of SrinagarBaramulla highway, to thwart protests in rural areas, the Indian forces Rashtriya Rifles (RR) are searching most areas of Palhallan in Pattan and threatening the residents of dire consequences in case the schools and shops were not opened.

Residents told media men that Indian forces led by an army major who visited Palhallan, Goshbugh, Wusan and many adjoining areas entered into the schools of villages. A Major of the Rashtriya Rifles met the village heads and residents. He ordered them to ensure that schools and shops should be opened on the days announced by APHC chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, to be marked with strike.

He (Major) said that army would not allow the people to observe the strike on the call of Hurriyat leaders, a resident of Wasun said. He added that the army officer threatened them of dire consequences in case they did not follow the orders.

The residents of Goshbugh said that the coercion, harassment, nocturnal raids and arrest by the Indian army had made their life a hell.

Illegally detained APHC leader and the Chairman of Jammu and Kashmir National Front, Nayeem Ahmad Khan was once again sent to Srinagar Central Jail on 10-day judicial remand. Nayeem Ahmad Khan was arrested on June 28, this year when the All Parties Hurriyat Conference had given Sopore chalo call after Machil fake encounter followed by killing of innocent Kashmiri people by Indian troops.

Nayeem Ahmad Khan was presented in the court of Chief Judicial Magistrate, Budgam. Several senior lawyers present in the court submitted a bail application for the APHC leader. The court issued directives for sending Nayeem Ahmad Khan to Srinagar Central Jail on 10 days judicial remand.

Nayeem Khan was arrested on June 28 near Pattan when he was on way to Sopore to express solidarity with the families of four youth martyred by Indian troops in the town. He was lodged in Baramulla sub-jail.

On September 29, a court granted bail to the APHC leader, however, he was shifted by the police to Joint Interrogation Centre at Humhama. Subsequently, on October 6, he was presented by police before court, which granted him remand for five days. He was again produced before the court of October 11 and was sent on judicial remand for 10 more days and was lodged in Central Jail Srinagar.

The authorities continued to impose curfew and strict restrictions in Srinagar and all other towns to prevent people form conducting a march towards Bijbehara, today.

Call for the march had been given by APHC chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani as part of the ongoing "Quit Kashmir Movment". All entry points of Bijbehara town were closed with razor wire and armoured vehicles while the area around the historical Jamia Masjid in Srinagar was sealed.

In other developement, a dead body of one more youth was recovered from the debris of the houses destroyed by Indian forces in Srinagar, the provincial capital of Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir.

With the recovery of the body, the toll of martyred youth has risen to three at Maloora Shalteng in the city outskirts. The Indian forces on Thursday during clash with Mujahideen destroyed two residential houses with heavy mortar shelling and bodies of two youth were recovered from the debris, last evening, after the operation ended.

On the other hand, three Indian forces including Captain, Gaurav, Lance Naik, Karnail Singh and Sepoy, Karan Singh were killed in a landslide triggered by heavy rains at Tikri in Uri area of Baramulla district.

Meanwhile, the occupation authorities strictly restricted the movement of people in Srinagar, Islamabad, Bijbehara, Shopian and other towns by imposing curfew and other restrictions.

Geelani: India wants to kill time through holding talks


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## Bhairava

Isnt that the case.?

Anyways Diplomacy at its very best.


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## third eye

The lady is abs right.


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## VCheng

Jana said:


> *This will multiply the entire Kashmir tussle with big ZERO. Which means NO Passionate or Dispassionate discussion in the first place.*
> ..............................................



With ALL due respect Jana, *is that not the whole point: to end the debate *AND the 60 year old "tussle"?

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## fast and furious

somebozo said:


> Living proof that India has not yet evolved from hindu muslim divide which is at least a millinieum old. Grand salute to Jinnah for his forward vision!



As an Indian ,I second that.May his soul rest in peace .

I shudder when I imagine pakistan to be part of India and all the chaos ,madarrsas,fundamentalism ,suicide bombing in my Country.

Grand salute to Jinnah for his forward vision !

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## riCoh

There are hundreds of independent countries in the world, but no country write independent with its name, as it is understood that they are all independent. However, with Kashmir Pakistani authorities have included Azad (independent), it clearly means there is something wrong - daal main kuch kala hai - something sinister is at play; and they have something to hide. This Word is included to fool people of Jammu and Kashmir, just to give them false sense of independence


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## KS

somebozo said:


> Living proof that India has not yet evolved from hindu muslim divide which is at least a millinieum old. *Grand salute to Jinnah for his forward vision!*



Psychology says *"Only if you are not sure about a thing,you keep repeating that thing to yourself to pacify your mind and justify it "*..

Is this one such thing. ??

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## Minimalist

I had posed these questions in other threads but couldn't get an answer hence thought why not create a separate thread?

So my Pakistani friends, kindly tell me, what's so special about kashmiris that you are so pained about their so-called oppression and suffering and what not while at the same time you guys do not give two hoots about the suffering of peoples elsewhere on earth?
*
Q- Where was this love in 1971?*

Please do not say that 1971 was a result of India. I can accept that India added fuel to the fire but that's it. The fire already existed before India decided to step in.

The mere fact that that 'fire' existed is enough to prove that you/your govt./your army did not have too much love for the then east bengalis even though they were Muslims isn't it?

*Q- Where is this love when it comes to Uighurs?*

Accept it, the uighur struggle also constituted muslims but you guys seem to have turned a blind eye to it. Not even once did you talk about the rights of Uighur muslims...why? Are they not muslims? Or the fact of their being muslim is not very important because of your 'all weather ally'?

*Q- Where is this love when it comes to afghans?*

The Taliban indulged in all kinds of abuses of human rights be them those of afghan women or children but yet your army always seems to favour them. Even here on PDF, I've seen many Pakistanis advocating friendship with the barbaric Taliban. Do I have to remind you of the gross persecution and torture they inflicted on the afghan women and children...or may be you are not willing to see it because of some misplaced notion of 'strategic depth'?

Please enlighten me. I really wish to know the answers to these questions?


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## somebozo

1971 was India cunning war plan..and our own bigotry as well foolishness. India came and took advantage instead of proving itself a worthy neighbor. Pakistan could have very well sided with Portugal in the seige of Goa had it not been for our neutrality.


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## Minimalist

somebozo said:


> 1971 was India cunning war plan..and our own bigotry as well foolishness. India came and took advantage instead of proving itself a worthy neighbor. Pakistan could have very well sided with Portugal in the seige of Goa had it not been for our neutrality.



*So that means you are trying to take revenge...right??

So all this show-shaa of love for kashmiris is nothing but a farce and a means to conceal your desire to take revenge isn't it? Isn't that what you mean?

Aceept it, it's not love for kashmiris but it's your desire to take revenge. *


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## Minimalist

I wonder where my dear friends Abu Zolfiqar and Omar1984 are....would love to hear it from them.


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## MYSTIC

This is the reply you are going to get

because Chinese have no religion, while Taliban are muslims. Therefore, there is not point crying for the dying muslims. However, in Kashmir it is the evil fascist hindus and Palestine its the evil jews.

There is no point asking such questions to people who have made up mind towards hating their neighbors. You can make a person to think in a different way but it is not possible to change a person opinion when hatred is running that deep into the blood. Ever since Pakistan's independence, the government and its people have been trying real hard to justify the two nation theory (i have also seen a lot of Pakistani member here doing it). Who's asking for the justification? and what does the two nation theory prove? for me it tries to prove that Islam cannot co-exist with other religions as a minority. That is why requires a state within a state. India has been hard on these secessionist movements for the rightful reasons as it would deteriorate its national 
sovereignty and unity. Every soon EU nations will follow.

It is about time moderate muslims take a stand to stop all this non-sense and try to assimilate with other religions rather than showing their superiority and call world domination. Learn to co-exist with other or end up being isolated.

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## Minimalist

MYSTIC said:


> This is the reply you are going to get
> 
> because Chinese have no religion, while Taliban are muslims. Therefore, there is not point crying for the dying muslims. However, in Kashmir it is the evil fascist hindus and Palestine its the evil jews.
> 
> There is no point asking such questions to people who have made up mind towards hating their neighbors. You can make a person to think in a different way but it is not possible to change a person opinion when hatred is running that deep into the blood. Ever since Pakistan's independence, the government and its people have been trying real hard to justify the two nation theory (i have also seen a lot of Pakistani member here doing it). Who's asking for the justification? and what does the two nation theory prove? for me it tries to prove that Islam cannot co-exist with other religions as a minority. That is why requires a state within a state. India has been hard on these secessionist movements for the rightful reasons as it would deteriorate its national
> sovereignty and unity. Every soon EU nations will follow.
> 
> It is about time moderate muslims take a stand to stop all this non-sense and try to assimilate with other religions rather than showing their superiority and call world domination. Learn to co-exist with other or end up being isolated.



So that means all this love for kashmiris and their so-called suffereing is nothing but a veneer to hide the pakistanis' hatred for India and desire to take revenge?? Is that it?

And that makes kashmiris a tool for Pakistan in its policy towadrs hurting Idnia.

So that's what kashmiris are...a tool...a pawn!


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## MYSTIC

Minimalist said:


> So that means all this love for kashmiris and their so-called suffereing is nothing but a veneer to hide the pakistanis' hatred for India and desire to take revenge?? Is that it?



It does not mean anything. Its just my opinion. Other people can give their opinions for you to decide.


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## MYSTIC

somebozo said:


> 1971 was India cunning war plan..and our own bigotry as well foolishness. India came and took advantage instead of proving itself a worthy neighbor. Pakistan could have very well sided with Portugal in the seige of Goa had it not been for our neutrality.



and who was going to take care of millions of Bengali refugees? Not India. We had our own problems to take care of.


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## Minimalist

usmangujjar said:


> What is not special about them???they our and will be our brothers..and yes we do feel the pain of all muslims...no matter what country they live,what race they are ,whereever they are.and yes we do feel the pain no matter if its gujrat,it assam...trust me we do feel it.
> dont you feel anything for the human rights voilations in your countries in ahemdabad and gujrat......or are they not special enough for you?



What happened to this 'love' and 'feeling' in 1971 when your very own 'muslim brothers' in east pakistan were at the receiving end of your policies???

My question still remains unanswered...

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## Jackdaws

somebozo said:


> 1971 was India cunning war plan..and our own bigotry as well foolishness. India came and took advantage instead of proving itself a worthy neighbor. Pakistan could have very well sided with Portugal in the seige of Goa had it not been for our neutrality.



Dude are you high? Portugal? LOL - They surrendered in hours. What could you have possibly done to help them? How many Portuguese came to Pakistan seeking refuge? LOL - given that they were around a 1000 of them in Goa in the first place.


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## Minimalist

Jackdaws said:


> Dude are you high? Portugal? LOL - They surrendered in hours. What could you have possibly done to help them? How many Portuguese came to Pakistan seeking refuge? LOL - given that they were around a 1000 of them in Goa in the first place.



Relax...let's focus on the questions I've asked buddy!


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## MYSTIC

usmangujjar said:


> What is not special about them???they our and will be our brothers..and yes we do feel the pain of all muslims...no matter what country they live,what race they are ,whereever they are.and yes we do feel the pain no matter if its gujrat,it assam...trust me we do feel it.
> dont you feel anything for the human rights voilations in your countries in ahemdabad and gujrat......or are they not special enough for you?



Your heart only goes for the muslims in Gujurat. What about the Hindus that were killed in the riots? You heart goes for Palestinians who were driven from their lands but show no remorse for what happened to the Kashmiri Pandits.

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## Minimalist

ha ha ha, lagta hai saara ka saara pyaar kashmirion ke liye hee bacha ke rakha hai. 

*P.S. My questions still remain unanswered!*


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## KS

somebozo said:


> 1971 was India cunning war plan..and our own bigotry as well foolishness. India came and took advantage instead of proving itself a worthy neighbor.* Pakistan could have very well sided with Portugal in the seige of Goa had it not been for our neutrality.*



Dont flatter yourserlf too much.

It would not have mattered if you had given your whole country to Portugal.


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## Minimalist

usmangujjar said:


> so what is your request dear?



I very humbly and with my hands folded in respect, beseech you to answer my questions and clear my doubts sir.


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## majesticpankaj

hello guys...........wake up. we all are internet warriors, don't need to get high to score point against each other. the double standards would always be there be it india or pakistan or any other country. blind patriotism will yield nothing. some people justify terror attack other justify violence against mob in kashmir. are we worst than animals. are we getting uncivilized day by day? on internet we do not need to face each other physically, that's why we write whatever we want. imazine, if we meet eachother, would be say the same nasty things that we write on forums?


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## Minimalist

majesticpankaj said:


> hello guys...........wake up. we all are internet warriors, don't need to get high to score point against each other. the double standards would always be there be it india or pakistan or any other country. blind patriotism will yield nothing. some people justify terror attack other justify violence against mob in kashmir. are we worst than animals. are we getting uncivilized day by day? on internet we do not need to face each other physically, that's why we write whatever we want. imazine, if we meet eachother, would be say the same nasty things that we write on forums?



What's your point and how does it help the topic?


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## majesticpankaj

Minimalist said:


> What's your point and how does it help the topic?


point to get off from your high horse. nothing can be achieved through that. people will flame only


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## Minimalist

usmangujjar said:


> this is what happened in 1971
> 
> YouTube - ZAID HAMID- Shamsheer e Ummat



You again proved that your support for kashmiris is not about 'love' or 'feeeling' but about revenge...you just proved so.

And plz do not bring Zaid Hamid into the discussion...I request you. i'm seriously trying to find some answers here without indulging in comedy.


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## Minimalist

usmangujjar said:


> minimalist i appreciate your courtesy sir now may i present this book in yur honour sir and request you to go through it cover to cover
> 
> http://http://www.scribd.com/doc/24561659/Blood-and-Tears



I'm sorry the link is not working. Could you please summarize for me what the book says?


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## Minimalist

majesticpankaj said:


> point to get off from your high horse. nothing can be achieved through that. people will flame only



lol that pretty much sums it up who's on a high horse!


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## jazzy b

i think we need to take strict action against these desh drohies


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## MYSTIC

usmangujjar said:


> unless you go through it you wont understand.i know it takes time if your browser is slow.read it.trust me it will answer all your queries.do you really think zaid hamid is a comedian?i have heard he's the most hated man in india?is it true?



No one knows who Zaid Hamid is except a few people. I myself only saw his vidoes on youtube 1 month ago. Are there many Zaid Hamid followers? Why do people follow him, even though he does not have any proof to back his debate? Is it because he say what people want to hear?

What about following of moderates like Namaj Sethi, Hassan Nisar and many others? Why do the people prefer Zaid Hamid, especially the youth?


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## majesticpankaj

apart from internet warriors, nobody knows him...


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## AHMED85

Minimalist said:


> I wonder where my dear friends Abu Zolfiqar and Omar1984 are....would love to hear it from them.



lagda ai phai di takray da modd hai...


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## Irfan Baloch

it is down to the Kashmiris, pakistan and India to reolve it
expecting the world to do something about it is futile. all countries are hostage to their personal interests
India is being pimped and primed to take on the Chinese threat and take care of the security of the region for USA
so it doesnt suit to annoy India

human rights, the continued sermons of democracy and will of the people can rest when it comes to Kashmir


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## AHMED85

ajtr said:


> What so special about kashmiris??????
> 
> their specialty  is :hot headed people with colder heart.



any Kashmiri accident you 

due to lack resource of


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## SpArK

AHMED85 said:


> any Kashmiri accident you
> 
> due to lack resource of



accident you Kashmiri any 

resource due to lack of


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## PAKFA

usmangujjar said:


> why the kashmir issue is special?to all our indian guests here please go through
> 
> YouTube - Zaid Hamid: Kashmir - Past, Present & Future Part 1
> 
> YouTube - Zaid Hamid: Kashmir - Past, Present & Future Part 2
> 
> 
> YouTube - Zaid Hamid: Kashmir - Past, Present & Future Part 3
> 
> minimalist sir please go through him with an open mind.thank you i wish this will answer your queries.if you still have doubts ..well .....



Are you giving his reference , You seem to be new on this forum.


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## MYSTIC

usmangujjar said:


> why the kashmir issue is special?to all our indian guests here please go through
> 
> YouTube - Zaid Hamid: Kashmir - Past, Present & Future Part 1
> 
> YouTube - Zaid Hamid: Kashmir - Past, Present & Future Part 2
> 
> 
> YouTube - Zaid Hamid: Kashmir - Past, Present & Future Part 3
> 
> minimalist sir please go through him with an open mind.thank you i wish this will answer your queries.if you still have doubts ..well .....



kid this guy has a conspiracy theory to everything Indian. And all his conspiracies are without proof. How can you believe what he is saying? Isn't this guy banned on Pakistani TV? I know he was banned on facebook...


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## bandit

Irfan Baloch said:


> India is being pimped and primed to take on the Chinese threat and take care of the security of the region for USA



That is mere speculation as India and China are engaging in dialogue, trade, defence excercises and what not. 

Interesting line of logic though, loooking at the past through it one could say Pakistan had been pimped, primed and banged to take on Russia in Afghanistan!!!


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## foxbat

Irfan Baloch said:


> it is down to the Kashmiris, pakistan and India to reolve it
> expecting the world to do something about it is futile. all countries are hostage to their personal interests
> India is being pimped and primed to take on the Chinese threat and take care of the security of the region for USA
> so it doesnt suit to annoy India
> 
> human rights, the continued sermons of democracy and will of the people can rest when it comes to Kashmir



I agree 100%. Once GoP accepts (like Musharraf did) that its upto India and Pakistan to sort this out without any external forces playing any effective role, it will boil down to a simple trade off of mutual positions to come to a common ground. 

I have intentionally left the word Kashmiris out of it, since an Independent Kashmir is something which neither Pakistan nor India is willing to accept and the Kashmiris will have to stay within the ambits of the 2 larger nations.


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## Minimalist

usmangujjar said:


> yes i am new to this forum,and it belongs to my country pakistan.
> and you sir are guest here.i wish you all the best.
> enjoy your stay.



My dear, since you're new here hence i'll give it to you. Please go through this thread and you'll know what your own countrymen, let alone Indians, think about Zaid Hamid.
_*
http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/51290-zaid-hamid-commentary.html*_

Mods had to make it a sticky because the humor this clown dishes out serves to entertain so many Indians and Pakistanis. 

*P.S. My questions still remain unanswered.*


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## booo

Irfan Baloch said:


> human rights, the continued sermons of democracy and will of the people can rest when it comes to Kashmir


It is the same country which allowed mr gilani to conduct a conference about breaking up india. wonder what happens if the same is done in other countries. Tienanmen square should give you an idea.

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## riju78

Hi minimalist:... I also asked a few questions before to jana too.. one was Why was there no trouble in Kashmir till 1989....
Can u add this to ur list too pls


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## Minimalist

^^ Ya sure buddy why not...but first let those three questions get answered and after that I'll take up this question too.

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## Minimalist

Hi friends, every now and then we hear the news of some high ranking Pakistan official urging the US to mediate on kashmir issue and as a 'rata-rataya' response, US always says "We Won't".

My question is, what does Pakistan expect US to do when it comes to Kashmir? How do you think US can help Pakistan on Kashmir?

What action does Pakistan expect US to take about Kashmir and can the US take such an action...is this Pakistani hope realistic?


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## Developereo

It's just a stupid public relations stunt by Pakistani politicians to fool the Pakistani public.

They know, like you said, that the US (or the UN or the EU or whatever) will never agree, but they ask anyway so they can tell the people back home they are trying to 'resolve' Kashmir.

Also, even if the US (or UN or EU) got involved, they are far more likely to favor India rather than Pakistan anyway, so why ask them in the first place?

Bottom line, all this 'asking' business is just a cynical publicity stunt by politicians who don't have the skills or vision to make Pakistan strong by itself so we can negotiate with India properly.

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## foxbat

^ I am waiting for the day when US gets fed up and says, ok, you want us to mediate, turn LOC into IB .. 

or even, 

get out of Azad Kashmir.

What will Pakistan do then?


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## Developereo

foxbat said:


> ^ I am waiting for the day when US gets fed up and says, ok, you want us to mediate, turn LOC into IB ..
> 
> or even,
> 
> get out of Azad Kashmir.
> 
> What will Pakistan do then?



They will moan and cry about the 'evil' Americans.

And nobody will ask the obvious question, "why did you go to the Americans in the first place?"

It's like the Arab governments' duplicitous dance about the Palestinians. Even a 5 year old simpleton child would know that the Americans are not 'neutral' in the Israel/Palestine conflict, yet the Arabs keep going back to the Americans as 'neutral arbiters'


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## mehboobkz

Any GOI (political party) would not give away Kashmir - If that happens, THAT party wont be elected again on Indian political spectrum, be it congress or BJP. Having said that, and you know the 63 years imbroglio - the status quo is prevalant on this.

On one hand Pakistan is hell bent on Kashmir (compulsive obsession), on the other Indian parliament says "atoot ang", hence the stale-mate.

The present scenario of India favours it with its robust economy and major powers favouring India. The same can not be said for Pakistan who is dole dependent nation - always borrowing for surviving.

Its time Pakistan to change its track on Kashmir, because I know Pakistan is not developing itself adequately with Kashmir mania intact.


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## mehboobkz

Developereo said:


> It's just a stupid public relations stunt by Pakistani politicians to fool the Pakistani public.
> 
> They know, like you said, that the US (or the UN or the EU or whatever) will never agree, but they ask anyway so they can tell the people back home they are trying to 'resolve' Kashmir.
> 
> Also, even if the US (or UN or EU) got involved, they are far more likely to favor India rather than Pakistan anyway, so why ask them in the first place?
> 
> Bottom line, all this 'asking' business is just a cynical publicity stunt by politicians who don't have the skills or vision to make Pakistan strong by itself so we can negotiate with India properly.



So what is Pakistan´s option then? ¿¿¿


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## Developereo

mehboobkz said:


> So what is Pakistan´s option then? ¿¿¿



To get off the dole, as you put it, and become strong and self-reliant. Maybe we can't match India (or maybe we can -- Japan and Germany have shown that size doesn't matter), but we will certainly attract allies and supporters if we have something to offer back in return.


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## mehboobkz

Developereo said:


> To get off the dole, as you put it, and become strong and self-reliant. Maybe we can't match India (or maybe we can -- Japan and Germany have shown that size doesn't matter), but we will certainly attract allies and supporters if we have something to offer back in return.




Since 63 years it has not happened, while India has done that.

So how long Pakistan should creep along with K issue?

Give me number of years pragmatically speaking.....


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## Developereo

mehboobkz said:


> Since 63 years it has not happened, while India has done that.
> 
> So how long Pakistan should creep along with K issue?
> 
> Give me number of years pragmatically speaking.....



For 63 years Pakistan hasn't followed any plan for long term economic development. We actually had a plan in the 50s, back in Ayub Khan's days, but we didn't follow it. (The South Koreans adapted our plan and look where they are now.)

The K issue has nothing to do with Pakistan's economic woes; they are caused by rampant corruption and the _de facto_ alliance between the feudal oligarchs and the military.

To answer your question, I can't give you the number of years, but Pakistan will never progress until we break out of this oligarchy-military alliance.


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## sensenreason

Pakistan by asking US to negotiate on Kashmir takes American pressure off itself to act on terror by agruing that the 'cause' of terror still exists an is unresolve..the only problem I see is that this co-relation has passed its expiry date as the teror movements are now proxies of people controlling drug cartels and intel agencies and mercenaries...and Kashmir itself has seen peaceful (stones cannot equal guns) demonstration...Actually, its a blessing for India..as its also the first time India is taking the movement seriously and moving to resolve it...

It should show people how wrong were the likes of Hamid Gul and others..who used the Afghan war to start the Kashmir insurgency...to that extent it allows Pak govt to act against the Haqqani's etc


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## mehboobkz

Developereo said:


> For 63 years Pakistan hasn't followed any plan for long term economic development. We actually had a plan in the 50s, back in Ayub Khan's days, but we didn't follow it. (The South Koreans adapted our plan and look where they are now.)
> 
> The K issue has nothing to do with Pakistan's economic woes; they are caused by rampant corruption and the _de facto_ alliance between the feudal oligarchs and the military.
> 
> To answer your question, I can't give you the number of years, but Pakistan will never progress until we break out of this oligarchy-military alliance.




You are giving German-Japan-South Korean examples, yet you are not inclined to give any time table for Pakistan.

Indian politicians have stashed lots of funds in swiss bank too and have spend lot of money on arms - yet they have come on the top as far as economy is concerned. Corrupt politicians straddle on both sides (India Pakistan).

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## sensenreason

mehboobkz said:


> You are giving German-Japan-South Korean examples, yet you are not inclined to give any time table for Pakistan.
> 
> Indian politicians have stashed lots of funds in swiss bank too and have spend lot of money on arms - yet they have come on the top as far as economy is concerned. Corrupt politicians straddle on both sides (India Pakistan).



No Corruption is no proxy for efficiency or economic growth, in other words corruption can drag growth down a tad but not scuttle it.


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## Minimalist

Absolutely, the push must come from the people...the hoi polloi.

That's what happened with India.

Although, in a setup like that of China, the govt. pushes everything.


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## riju78

no sign of regular warriors here minimalist!!!


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## Minimalist

^^ What else could you expect?

You know, Pakistanis wanting kashmir is like a child urging his father to buy him a toy.

The child wants the toy but why? That the child doesn't know.

Similarly, Pakistan wants Kashmir or let's say kashmiris' human rights or whatever they claim...point is, they do not know WHY they want it??? Pakistan does not have any locus standi on the subject!

I again urge my Pakistani friends, please answer my questions!


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## Areesh

Wow frustration. Anyways...

I have just *three* questions for the thread starter.

1 Why are you using a dual ID?

2 Why aren't you banned yet?

3 Why you still cry that Indians face biased moderation on this forum when you aren't banned even after the clear violation of the forum rules?

Hopefully the thread starter would get off the frustration horse he is riding and would answer with sanity.


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## Minimalist

Areesh said:


> Wow frustration. Anyways...
> 
> I have just *three*questions for the thread starter.
> 
> 1 Why are you using a dual ID?
> 
> 2 Why aren't you banned yet?
> 
> 3 Why you still cry that Indians face biased moderation on this forum when you aren't banned even after the clear violation of the forum rules?
> 
> Hopefully the thread starter would get off the frustration horse he is riding and would answer with sanity.



I'm not using a multiple id...you can ask the mods to check it..

BTW, the frustration is reflected more in your post than in mine...time to answer the questions buddy


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## Irfan Baloch

Minimalist said:


> I'm not using a multiple id...you can ask the mods to check it..
> 
> BTW, the frustration is reflected more in your post than mine...time to answer the questions buddy



I say
you revamped yerself and are not supporting the fascist avatar no more
but dare I say . the poison & jealousy is still in abundance


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## Minimalist

Irfan Baloch said:


> I say
> you revamped yerself and are not supporting the fascist avatar no more
> but dare I say . the poison & jealousy is still in abundance



Kindly post on topic Monsieur Think Tank!


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## Areesh

Minimalist said:


> I'm not using a multiple id...you can ask the mods to check it..



You didn't answer my questions dear. And I also know you are a bharati Patrician who was banned from the forum. You also know that.

Now answer my questions.


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## Jade

usmangujjar said:


> unless you go through it you wont understand.i know it takes time if your browser is slow.read it.trust me it will answer all your queries.do you really think zaid hamid is a comedian?i have heard he's the most hated man in india?is it true?



I haven't heard of Zaid Hamid until I joined PDF. Trust me... after seeing his videos...I don't even take him seriously


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## Minimalist

Areesh said:


> You didn't answer my questions dear. And I also know you are a bharati Patrician who was banned from the forum. You also know that.
> 
> Now answer my questions.



What is there to answer?  you are making unsubstantiated allegations without proof.

Proof please and then we shall talk!

Now let's get back to topic, shall we?


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## dabong1

Minimalist said:


> So my Pakistani friends, kindly tell me, what's so special about kashmiris that you are so pained about their so-called oppression and suffering



It may have passed you by but when they where making pakistan and india the basic formula used was that majority muslim regions where to go with pakistan while the majority hindu regions where to go with india......going off this basic logic kashmir being majority muslim should have gone to pakistan.
So it is a territorial dispute with some religious underpinnings.
There are a lot kashmiris in pakistan and for obvious reason they are going to show more support to there brethren then other causes.




Minimalist said:


> and what not while at the same time you guys do not give two hoots about the suffering of peoples elsewhere on earth?


*

Well if theres a fire a hundred miles away its not going to affect me as much as the fire next door......i can at least help my next neighbour.







Minimalist said:



Q- Where was this love in 1971?

Click to expand...

*


Minimalist said:


> Please do not say that 1971 was a result of India. I can accept that India added fuel to the fire but that's it. The fire already existed before India decided to step in.
> 
> The mere fact that that 'fire' existed is enough to prove that you/your govt./your army did not have too much love for the then east bengalis even though they were Muslims isn't it?



Theres a parellel here with your kashmir question.........hindu bengalis supported there brothers in bangladesh and the knock on effect bought the support of hindu india.





Minimalist said:


> *Q- Where is this love when it comes to Uighurs?*
> 
> Accept it, the uighur struggle also constituted muslims but you guys seem to have turned a blind eye to it. Not even once did you talk about the rights of Uighur muslims...why? Are they not muslims? Or the fact of their being muslim is not very important because of your 'all weather ally'?



How many uighur in pakistan?
There is no struggle in china by muslims.........and going of your remarks it seems you back an islamic ummah that helps muslims around the world fight the oppressors?






Minimalist said:


> *Q- Where is this love when it comes to afghans?*
> 
> The Taliban indulged in all kinds of abuses of human rights be them those of afghan women or children but yet your army always seems to favour them. Even here on PDF, I've seen many Pakistanis advocating friendship with the barbaric Taliban. Do I have to remind you of the gross persecution and torture they inflicted on the afghan women and children...or may be you are not willing to see it because of some misplaced notion of 'strategic depth'?



The indian army does a lot worse......why dont you care?




Minimalist said:


> Please enlighten me. I really wish to know the answers to these questions?



Please enlighten us on why after going to the UN you indians will not the kashmiris vote for what they want?......if you indians are so great then for sure you will win the vote.......wont you?


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## dabong1

riju78 said:


> Hi minimalist:... I also asked a few questions before to jana too.. one was Why was there no trouble in Kashmir till 1989....



The indians shot a load of innocent protesters demanding freedom and then imposition of Governor's Rule with all the draconian laws to go with it and the last so many decades of rigged elections and the 1987 election in particular that led to 1989 freedom fight.


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## Spring Onion

71 was our internal matter and Indians have done Cross border state Terrorism in Pakistan.

Simple straight. Period.


Instead we should ask Indians here what is so special about Israelis that Indians here waste no time when it comes to defending Israeli terrorism against Palestinians.

Above all Indians jumping the wagon here should ask where is Your love for your own people when hundreds of Low cast Hindus are burnt alive for converting to Christianity? where is your love for your countrymen whom you call Commies because they are not siding with bajrangis/saffronis ?

The list is long


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## Spring Onion

Irfan Baloch said:


> I say
> you revamped yerself and are not supporting the fascist avatar no more
> but dare I say . the poison & jealousy is still in abundance



 yeah yeah he was right he was not using hahahahah


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## KS

usmangujjar said:


> i hope kashmir becomes Pakistan soon.*how long will people have to listen to nonsense like vande matram*.



...Till the time your country is powerful enough to take Kashmir by force,defeating India.

Do the time calculation for yourself.


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## Karachiite

Kashmiris in Indian Occupied Kashmir fighting for their rights





















Actions speak louder than words

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## Last Hope

usmangujjar said:


> i hope kashmir becomes Pakistan soon.how long will people have to listen to nonsense like vande matram.



Kashmir is _legally_ Pakistans' 

If the Indian side thinks that it is unfair, then let me explain.
During the time of Partition, Muslims (Pakistanis) were promised 7 provinces, but the deal was that it would be runned by the Britishers.

However, our great leader, Quaid-e-Azam opposed the proposal and told that Muslims (Pakistanis) want a totally free country.

The Britishers agreed, rather coldly. The day finally arrived, but it was announced that Muslims will have 4 provinces because they cannot handle such a large country . 

Before the proposal, all the provinces were asked which country to join. Kashmir was a Muslim majority but had a Hindu ruler.

The muslims wanted to join Pakistan but the ruler (Hindu) wanted India.

The dispute couldnt be come over and it is countined until now!


*NO OFFENCE TO ANYONE*

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## KS

usmangujjar said:


> till the time we are powerul enough?i dont know what to say.you really doubt our military might.pakistan army is by the grace of god one of the most well equipped,effiecent and fearless fighting force on god's earth.the people of pakistan are behing their army.we are a nuclear power and my message to those who are still underestimating our ability.wake up!



So when are you going to crush India and reclaim your rightful property(Kashmir) ..? Any dateline ??


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## silent hill

Aashiq said:


> Kashmiris in Indian Occupied Kashmir fighting for their rights
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actions speak louder than words



wht an intelligent message bravo!!!

and shame on indians, looks like bharat is planning for a famous slaughter day, bad news coming and tempers boiling, its a bad position from indian public to stupidilly react like that

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Kashmir is boiling ,, the time is not far when it will be liberated from the tyranny of India..!!!


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## JonAsad

usmangujjar said:


> Nasr minallahi wa fatehan kareeb



Insha Allah

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## Bangalorean

usmangujjar said:


> till the time we are powerul enough?i dont know what to say.you really doubt our military might.pakistan army is by the grace of god one of the most well equipped,effiecent and fearless fighting force on god's earth.the people of pakistan are behing their army.we are a nuclear power and my message to those who are still underestimating our ability.wake up!



You may be very powerful and all that, but the sad fact (from your perspective) is that India is *much* more powerful than you. And we're getting more and more powerful each passing day. The gap is widening - economically, militarily... in every way. 

So *you *wake up! And get over this Kashmir obsession. Its bad for your country, your economy, your self respect - everything. And you know that you dare not come face to face with India in open war. 

If you had been capable, you would have snatched Kashmir long back. Fact of the matter is, you are *not* capable of doing that, *as of today*.

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## S_O_C_O_M

*Gilani lauds Pakistans support to Kashmir cause ​*
New Delhi, October 23 (KMS): Veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Gilani, has lauded Pakistans political, diplomatic and moral support to the Kashmir cause and said that India is trying to suppress Kashmiris just struggle for their right to self-determination through use of brute force.

Pakistans High Commissioner in New Delhi, Shahid Malik, visited the residence of Syed Ali Gilani at Malviya Nagar in New Delhi to see him. The veteran Hurriyet leader apprised the High Commissioner of latest situation in the occupied territory.

Syed Ali Gilani maintained that the Kashmiris liberation movement had entered into a decisive phase and Pakistan should expedite its diplomatic efforts to resolve the Kashmir dispute.

He appealed to the United Nations, Organization of the Islamic Conference and the world human rights bodies to take cognisance of the gross rights violations perpetrated by Indian police and troops in the territory and impress upon India to settle the longstanding dispute and release all the illegally detained Kashmiri Hurriyet leaders and activists. 

Gilani lauds Pakistan?s support to Kashmir cause | Kashmir Media Service

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## Fireurimagination

usmangujjar said:


> till the time we are powerul enough?i dont know what to say.you really doubt our military might.pakistan army is by the grace of god one of the most well equipped,effiecent and fearless fighting force on god's earth.the people of pakistan are behing their army.we are a nuclear power and my message to those who are still underestimating our ability.wake up!



But the same fearless, all powerful, most well equipped fighting force couldn't stop the drone attacks on your soil by another country, what a joke!


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## Bangalorean

usmangujjar said:


> Let me asure you.we know what we are capable of.I would be surprised a country who speaks of peace and is actively promoting aman ki asha looking for an active military conflict?does that comply with principles of dharma?
> I challenge you and your army to cross over and we will show you and teach your coming generations a lesson they will never forget.Pakistan ZINDABAD



Actually we have done that before, and if I remember right, your country was split into two. And India was soooo poor and weak that time. Now, when India is stronger and richer than it ever was, to expect that you can teach India any lessons, is childishness. Yeah, all this patriotic jingoism sounds good, but you know very well that it has no meaning.

And no, India is not looking for conflict. I am all for peace. And you know, India is ready to convert the LOC to permenant border and shove the issue aside. We don't even want P-O-K, but *you guys* want the entire Kashmir. You are not willing to compromise! So, what dharma are we talking about? If we had indeed been hawkish and aggressive, we would have demanded P-O-K also, non-negotiable.


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## Jackdaws

usmangujjar said:


> The two nation theory never has and never will fail.It is the vision of our elders.it was the dream of dr.allama iqbal which translated into the pakistan movement.Pakistan is an ideology and millions have sacrificed all they had to make this dream come true. unlike the wicth craft beliefs of our neighbours who worship mother earth not unlike our wicca friends who consider their mother earth as bharat mata.an ancient concept derieved from pagan worship.



The same Allama Iqbal who wrote - 

Mazhab nahin sikhata
Aapas mein bair rakhna

You sure are one heck of a follower.


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## Bangalorean

usmangujjar said:


> i feel i should conviently remind you that Pakistan has and will maintain that any drone attacks on our soil will not be tolerated.you forget that the united states of america issued and offical apology to the state of Pakistan for its mistake.The world was witness to the apology that was given by the united states.we have taken an account into the apologies and have drawn the limits that our allies have.By no means we will compromise on our intergrity,be it united states,or be it india.



Small correction. America apologized for the incident when a *manned* helicopter killed three Pakistani border guards.

No one has apologized to you for drone attacks. Drone attacks have constantly been "tolerated" by your government(s), they are continuing even now, and I think they will continue for as long as the US is in Afghanistan.

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## Jackdaws

usmangujjar said:


> i feel i should conviently remind you that Pakistan has and will maintain that any drone attacks on our soil will not be tolerated.you forget that the united states of america issued and offical apology to the state of Pakistan for its mistake.The world was witness to the apology that was given by the united states.we have taken an account into the apologies and have drawn the limits that our allies have.By no means we will compromise on our intergrity,be it united states,or be it india.



Drone attacks continue with impunity. Whether you like it or not, your leaders have sold your sovereignty - not now but since the times of CENTO and SEATO.

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## Water Car Engineer

@Aashiq

Just 2% of people in J&K want to join Pak: Survey - The Economic Times


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## jayron

usmangujjar said:


> The two nation theory never has and never will fail.It is the vision of our elders.it was the dream of dr.allama iqbal which translated into the pakistan movement.Pakistan is an ideology and millions have sacrificed all they had to make this dream come true. unlike the wicth craft beliefs of our neighbours who worship mother earth not unlike our wicca friends who consider their mother earth as bharat mata.an ancient concept derieved from pagan worship.



Its a shame such fanatic ignorant people have become the face of Pakistan these days. The country can do much better.
By the way, we are happy to continue following the tradition of the land than following an imported culture.

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Bangalorean said:


> Actually we have done that before, and if I remember right, your country was split into two. And India was soooo poor and weak that time. Now, when India is stronger and richer than it ever was, to expect that you can teach India any lessons, is childishness. Yeah, all this patriotic jingoism sounds good, but you know very well that it has no meaning.
> 
> And no, India is not looking for conflict. I am all for peace. And you know, India is ready to convert the LOC to permenant border and shove the issue aside. We don't even want P-O-K, but *you guys* want the entire Kashmir. You are not willing to compromise! So, what dharma are we talking about? If we had indeed been hawkish and aggressive, we would have demanded P-O-K also, non-negotiable.



Sorry... We want all of India... Not just Kashmir

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## Jackdaws

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Sorry... We want all of India... Not just Kashmir



Umeed pe toh duniya kayam hai.


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## wap7

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Sorry... We want all of India... Not just Kashmir


bbbut if you take all .. where do we live? should we convert to islam also?

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## Water Car Engineer

> Sorry... We want all of India... Not just Kashmir



Well my friend.... I wish Pakistan would try.

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## Tshering22

A shoe?! That's very kind of people. If I were present at his blabber session, I would have hurled something more explosive... The guy deserves a grenade up where the sun doesn' shine.


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## Trichy

"This is called freedom and democracy". 

A person who want to break some part of India, and he/she speak this @ the capital with the same GoI gives protection to him. else he/she will be dead years ago...


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## Jackdaws

usmangujjar said:


> time will tell...when we will hear radio pakistan new delhi...god please make it in our lives.ameen
> PAAAAAAAAAAKISSSSSSSSSSTAAAAAAAN ZIIIIIIIIIIIINDABAD



No body is going to tune in. We graduated to TVs half a century ago.


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## Trichy

"This is called freedom and democracy". 

A person who want to break some part of India, and he/she speak this @ the capital with the same GoI gives protection to him. else he/she will be dead years ago...

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## Developereo

Reminder: usmangujjar is an Indian troll.


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## Tshering22

usmangujjar said:


> i feel i should conviently remind you that Pakistan has and will maintain that any drone attacks on our soil will not be tolerated.you forget that the united states of america issued and offical apology to the state of Pakistan for its mistake.The world was witness to the apology that was given by the united states.we have taken an account into the apologies and have drawn the limits that our allies have.By no means we will compromise on our intergrity,be it united states,or be it india.


What apology are you talking about? It was an apology for the gunship that entered your airspace a few days back. Face it; if it comes to all out situation, US can run you down with any amount of pressure. Because you've taken so much from them as help be it economic or military. 

The point is, your sovereignty was squashed the day you joined CENTO and started depending totally on one side. And the side has given you a lot of stuff too for you not to complain. The WOT was not just America's war but every country's war. So far it wasn't affecting you so you didn't complain but when it grew out of your control, you blame the CIA and what not for "meddling during Afghan war". Conveniently forgetting that you were also a part of the package.

Drone attacks are far more cost effective and render more psychological damage than manned efforts that can easily be tarnished by media and left-leaning press. US realized this late but it is better late than never. Even if they apologized to you as you claim, the attacks are neither stopping nor will stop until everything related to AQ, Taliban, LeT etc and their fawn associations are reduced to ashes.

Remember, these agencies also have the blood of your own soldiers on their hands.


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## silent hill

Jackdaws said:


> No body is going to tune in. We graduated to TVs half a century ago.



how many of your population is urbanized and how many lives in rural areas


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## Tshering22

Developereo said:


> Reminder: usmangujjar is an Indian troll.


Dude, his comments don't really sound India-friendly. Don't blindly blame everyone as Indian.


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## Developereo

Tshering22 said:


> Dude, his comments don't really sound India-friendly. Don't blindly blame everyone as Indian.



He posts uber-jingoistic crap. He is obviously taunting the Indians and trolling, which makes him either a braindead Pakistani, or an Indian troll.

Given the history on this board, he could be either.

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## Omar1984

*Geelani hails Pakistan for supporting Kashmir cause ​*

NEW DELHI, (SANA): While lauding Pakistan&#8217;s political, diplomatic and moral support to the Kashmir cause, Veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Geelani made it clear that India will never succeeded in suppressing Kashmiris&#8217; just struggle for their right to self-determination through brute tactics.

He said this during his meeting with Pakistan&#8217;s High Commissioner in New Delhi, Shahid Malik, who visited his (Geelani) residence at Malviya Nagar in New Delhi to see him. The veteran Hurriyet leader apprised the High Commissioner of latest situation in the occupied valley.

Syed Ali Geelani maintained that the Kashmiris&#8217; liberation movement had entered into a decisive phase and Pakistan should expedite its diplomatic efforts to resolve the Kashmir dispute.

He appealed to the United Nations, Organization of the Islamic Conference and the world human rights bodies to take cognizance of the gross rights violations perpetrated by Indian police and troops in the territory and impress upon India to settle the long-standing dispute and release all the illegally detained Kashmiri Hurriyet leaders and activists.

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## Karachiite

Kashmiris will get freedom. Now or Never; Are We to Live or Perish Forever?


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## jazzy b

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *Gilani lauds Pakistans support to Kashmir cause ​*
> New Delhi, October 23 (KMS): Veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Gilani, has lauded Pakistans political, diplomatic and moral support to the Kashmir cause and said that India is trying to suppress Kashmiris just struggle for their right to self-determination through use of brute force.
> 
> Pakistans High Commissioner in New Delhi, Shahid Malik, visited the residence of Syed Ali Gilani at Malviya Nagar in New Delhi to see him. The veteran Hurriyet leader apprised the High Commissioner of latest situation in the occupied territory.
> 
> Syed Ali Gilani maintained that the Kashmiris liberation movement had entered into a decisive phase and Pakistan should expedite its diplomatic efforts to resolve the Kashmir dispute.
> 
> He appealed to the United Nations, Organization of the Islamic Conference and the world human rights bodies to take cognisance of the gross rights violations perpetrated by Indian police and troops in the territory and impress upon India to settle the longstanding dispute and release all the illegally detained Kashmiri Hurriyet leaders and activists.
> 
> Gilani lauds Pakistan?s support to Kashmir cause | Kashmir Media Service


geelani forgets that pakistan is helping them since 1947 but they had nothing achieved.pakistan and geelani types seperatist always cry kashmir kashmir but we don't care we have our main objectives. we have to grow faster more faster and faster.but when we achieve our own goal of development then we teach them a strong lesson.


p.s: sorry for my bad english


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## sensenreason

Omar1984 said:


> *Geelani hails Pakistan for supporting Kashmir cause ​*
> 
> NEW DELHI, (SANA): While lauding Pakistans political, diplomatic and moral support to the Kashmir cause, Veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Geelani made it clear that India will never succeeded in suppressing Kashmiris just struggle for their right to self-determination through brute tactics.
> 
> He said this during his meeting with Pakistans High Commissioner in New Delhi, Shahid Malik, who visited his (Geelani) residence at Malviya Nagar in New Delhi to see him. The veteran Hurriyet leader apprised the High Commissioner of latest situation in the occupied valley.
> 
> Syed Ali Geelani maintained that the Kashmiris liberation movement had entered into a decisive phase and Pakistan should expedite its diplomatic efforts to resolve the Kashmir dispute.
> 
> He appealed to the United Nations, Organization of the Islamic Conference and the world human rights bodies to take cognizance of the gross rights violations perpetrated by Indian police and troops in the territory and impress upon India to settle the long-standing dispute and release all the illegally detained Kashmiri Hurriyet leaders and activists.



If Dr Singh's govt has its way..yes, Kashmir will gets it freedom. But it will be war the moment the next govt comes in becoz..Congress will surely lose after gifting Kashmir and BJP will come to power and launch an effort to win it back Kashmir with overwhelming support of Indians.

I hate to say this but the stupid BJP will have support from many people who have no love lost for it...


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## MdArif

sensenreason said:


> If Dr Singh's govt has its way..yes, Kashmir will gets it freedom.



Are you sure you are an Indian? Your post reflects how little you know about India and Indian politics.

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## Bhairava

An employee praising his employer in hope of a payhike.......whats the big deal..?


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## MdArif

Gilani has done more harm to valley muslims than he has done good. It's because of his hard-line separatist policies that people from Jammu, Ladakh, Kargil and other regions apart from the valley feel isolated and alienated.

Had Gilani taken a little moderate line, Valley muslims would not have been so deserted today.


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## KS

Indian army kills 3 militants near line of control in Indian-controlled Kashmir


*Indian army troopers Saturday claimed to have foiled an infiltration bid by killing three militants on Line-of-Control (LoC) *during a gunfight in Indian-controlled Kashmir, Indian defense officials said.

The gunfight broke out early Saturday morning in the frontier Uri sector, close to LoC in Baramulla district, around 115 km northwest of Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian-controlled Kashmir.

"We have been able to thwart an infiltration bid in Uri sector. Three militants were gunned down during a gunfight after our alert troops in area observed suspicious movement early this morning. The troopers asked the intruders to surrender but they defied the warnings. The gunfight is going on," said Lt. Col. J. S. Brar, Indian army spokesman based in Srinagar.

The troops have cordoned off the entire area and search operation is underway.

Further details about the gunfight are not immediately available.

On Thursday, three militants were killed during a fierce daylong gunfight with Indian army on the outskirts of Srinagar city. The police said the militants were planning to carry out a suicide attack on army installations in the city.

The past two weeks have seen a surge in gunfights in the region.

*According to Indian Army figures, over 100 militants have been killed in various operations in Indian-controlled Kashmir this year while attempting to infiltrate into this country from across the border.*

*Source: Xinhua*

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Some one is really desperate to cross into J&K before the snow sets in.Looks like more action is set to ensue in the following days.*


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## MdArif

^^ Great News


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## LadyGaga

What sense and reason have you used in this post of yours?No Indian govt,be it congress,BJP,or any other alliance,nobody will do what your lack of geo politics says they will do.
On topic:Geelani has to make the right noises at the right time,hence he is doing so.Pakistan believes that they must support the kashmir cause and naturally Geelani and Pakistan would be bedfellows.



sensenreason said:


> If Dr Singh's govt has its way..yes, Kashmir will gets it freedom. But it will be war the moment the next govt comes in becoz..Congress will surely lose after gifting Kashmir and BJP will come to power and launch an effort to win it back Kashmir with overwhelming support of Indians.
> 
> I hate to say this but the stupid BJP will have support from many people who have no love lost for it...


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## Optimus

No Indian government will dare to give up Kashmir... It will be the end of that party for decades....

And that means whatever Pakistan does or these hardliners do, Kashmir will be an integral part of India... 

P.S : It is just my opinion.. There is no hate or like for the freedom campaign


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## Tshering22

^^ But I suspect the intentions of the bloody Congress who's known for weakness and beggar attitude against foreign powers while successfully crushing innocent Indian medical students' demands. 

in 60s, Nehru gave away UNSC seat to PRC, later he gifted Aksai Chin to PRC again; finally if that wasn't enough; he involved UN into an internal matter. Rest of Congressiyas are no less treacherous. Anything horrible is possible under this government.


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## KindlyCruel

Tshering22 said:


> ^^ But I suspect the intentions of the bloody Congress who's known for weakness and beggar attitude against foreign powers while successfully crushing innocent Indian medical students' demands.
> 
> in 60s, Nehru gave away UNSC seat to PRC, later he gifted Aksai Chin to PRC again; finally if that wasn't enough; he involved UN into an internal matter. Rest of Congressiyas are no less treacherous. Anything horrible is possible under this government.



Come on,i am also a BJPian,but Congress isn't doing that bad..
There are quite some good happenings occurring across the nation.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

If its integral part of inddia? then why r u talking with Pakistan? hahhahahah


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## MdArif

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> If its integral part of inddia? then why r u talking with Pakistan? hahhahahah



We are not talking to pakistan on Kashmir.

When it comes to Kashmir, Pakistan it talking, we are only listening and ignoring.

We spent 63 years like this and are willing to spend as many more as needed.

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## DEXTOR

Aashiq said:


> Kashmiris will get freedom. Now or Never; Are We to Live or Perish Forever?



mind to explain how?


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## GUNNER

*BJP asks PMO to clarify Padgaonkars Pakistan comment*

The BJP on Sunday slammed Dileep Padgaonkar, head of the interlocutors panel for Jammu and Kashmir, *for his comment that Pakistan has to be involved for a permanent solution of the Kashmir issue* and demanded that the PMO explain if this was part of the brief to the team. 

*Mr. Padgaonkar on his part stuck to his remark and maintained that what he had said regarding Pakistan was obvious and there was nothing new*. The three-member panel is on its first visit to the Kashmir Valley after it was set up 10 days back. 

*The journalist also said a dialogue with Pakistan is as necessary as the dialogue with the people of Jammu and Kashmir to resolve the Kashmir issue which is a bilateral dispute going on since 1947-48. *

The BJP said the comments sounded as if the panel was rationalising Pakistans stand on its unfinished agenda on Kashmir and that it was arguing from the Hurriyat angle in this matter. 

The BJP demands that the Prime Ministers Office (PMO) immediately clarify if this was part of the brief given to the interlocutors, party spokesperson Nirmala Sitharaman said in New Delhi. 

She expressed the fear that the comments by Mr. Padgaonkar even before it could start its assignment is unnecessarily internationalising the process. What was the Pakistan dimension that the interlocutor was referring to? Is this part of the brief given or has he stepped beyond its (the panels) brief? she questioned. 

Mr. Padgaonkar had said on Saturday that the panel is in Jammu and Kashmir to look for a permanent solution to the Kashmir dispute but a permanent solution is not possible without the involvement of Pakistan. 

Mr. Padgaonkar told PTI in Srinagar on Sunday that the panel had not been given any brief by the government and pointed to Home Minister P. Chidambarams statement that there are no red lines. 

What I have said with regard to Pakistan is the obvious. I have not said anything that has not been said before. 

I have not exceeded my brief as we did not get any brief. The Home Minister has said there are no red lines or boundaries. We know what we are doing, Mr. Pandgaonkar said. 

He recalled that Parliament had also passed a resolution on Jammu and Kashmir, asking Pakistan to vacate those areas which it has occupied. This shows that there is a Pakistan dimension to these issues, he said. 

Ms. Sitharaman said The comments sound as if they are rationalising Pakistans stand on its unfinished agenda on Kashmir. Furthermore, it seems as if the panel is arguing from the Hurriyat angle in this matter. 

Asked whether the party would seek recall of the panel, the BJP spokesperson said, At this stage we want the Prime Minister to say whether this was (the statements) part of their brief. 

*Mr. Padgaonkar, however, said Pakistan had been involved in the Kashmir issue since 1947 and the Indian government had recently stated it was ready to walk more than half the distance to settle all matters with Pakistan. *

He said the usage of words to describe the problem in the state was not as important as to find a way out. 

We have to put the terrible situation that the state has suffered during the past 63 years behind us and the only way to do that is through a sustained dialogue, which can lead to a comprehensive solution, he said.

The Hindu : News / National : BJP asks PMO to clarify Padgaonkar&rsquo;s Pakistan comment

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## Spring Onion

BJP is not a party to this issue why they jump up and down like apes


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## DEXTOR

Jana said:


> BJP is not a party to this issue why they jump up and down like apes



BJP is not in power this time!! BUT BJP is the only opposition party in front of congress and they got every right to ask the ruling party and what they are doing in this period of governance..!

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## Capt.Popeye

Karthic Sri said:


> Indian army kills 3 militants near line of control in Indian-controlled Kashmir
> 
> 
> *Indian army troopers Saturday claimed to have foiled an infiltration bid by killing three militants on Line-of-Control (LoC) *during a gunfight in Indian-controlled Kashmir, Indian defense officials said.
> 
> The gunfight broke out early Saturday morning in the frontier Uri sector, close to LoC in Baramulla district, around 115 km northwest of Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian-controlled Kashmir.
> 
> "We have been able to thwart an infiltration bid in Uri sector. Three militants were gunned down during a gunfight after our alert troops in area observed suspicious movement early this morning. The troopers asked the intruders to surrender but they defied the warnings. The gunfight is going on," said Lt. Col. J. S. Brar, Indian army spokesman based in Srinagar.
> 
> The troops have cordoned off the entire area and search operation is underway.
> 
> Further details about the gunfight are not immediately available.
> 
> On Thursday, three militants were killed during a fierce daylong gunfight with Indian army on the outskirts of Srinagar city. The police said the militants were planning to carry out a suicide attack on army installations in the city.
> 
> The past two weeks have seen a surge in gunfights in the region.
> 
> *According to Indian Army figures, over 100 militants have been killed in various operations in Indian-controlled Kashmir this year while attempting to infiltrate into this country from across the border.*
> 
> *Source: Xinhua*
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> *Some one is really desperate to cross into J&K before the snow sets in.Looks like more action is set to ensue in the following days.*



Good news. 3 more bite the dust.
It is inevitable that these T******** have been accounted for. Some more guests of the low-cost _Bullet Airlines_ sent to paradise for their date with 72 virgins.

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## kallu_be

If congress in opposition, it would have done the same thing.


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## INDIAN007

Good Job Indian Army.........Keep Up the good work


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## DEXTOR

congrats to the brave soldiers who fixed the dates of these ppl with devils in hell


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## Xeric

RollingStones said:


> Xeric..you are getting tiresome with your outlandish assertions. Pakistan is indeed in a terrible shape. Instead of focusing on eliminating the scourge called terrorism, it has created several of them because of poorly regulated schools and entry/exit procedures. In Mumbai attacks, a Jewish center was attacked and foreigners were deliberately targeted. Is this the Kashmir strategy - to go kill foreigners? Then, I am all the more against Kashmiri nonsense then. You dont see Tibetans going around killing people to make a point, do you? Yet Tibetans have a far higher traction when it comes to getting the message across than the Kashmiris ever have.



You are dumber than i thought!

Dude!

i today bet here that you DO NOT know a tosh about the word terrorism (the literal and philosophical meaning to be precise). Why, i'll come to this later.

As per indian claim the Mumbai attack was orchestrated by LeT (an outfit whose mission is to liberate Kashmir from the indian atrocities). Now is it that difficult for a buffoon to understand this simple phenomenon?

Terrorism is vague and at the same time very very specific. Vague in a sense that i dont understand why would National Liberation Front (FLN) target its own people in order to liberate Algeria, nor would i understand why would 'Muslim' Talibans target Muslims in/outside Pakistan?

But then i think a bit (this bit was small, very small) and know that FLN killed Algerians in the name of terrorism because in the words of Roger Trinquier; The goal of terrorism is control of the populace, and (means of) terrorism is a particularly appropriate weapon, since it aims directly at the inhabitant. In the street, at work, at home, the citizen lives continually under the threat of violent death. In the presence of this permanent danger surrounding him, he has the depressing feeling of being an isolated and defenceless target. The fact that public authority and the police are no longer capable of ensuring his security adds to his distress. He loses confidence in the state whose inherent mission it is to guarantee his safety. He is more and more drawn to the side f terrorists, who alone are able to protect him.

The intended objective, which is to cause the population to vacillate is thus attained. What characterizes modern terrorism, and makes for its basic strength, is the slaughter of generally defenceless persons.'

Do you actually think AQ is against the American population? Or is the American policman attitude that AQ is concerned about? Now as we all know it is the latter, then why would AQ bring down the Twin Towers and not take on the US military headon?

But then you know what, imbeciles might have difficulty understanding certain simple equations of life!

Also we also dont know that thickheaded Muslims (most of whom form the backbone of terrorists) consider Jews as their primary enemy.

Also we dont know that one of the aim of terrorism is to bring the 'cause' into international limelight. Now how to do so - the more the damage, massacre, pain and outcry (kill a Jew or Yank and you get all of these, the most!!) the more the projection. Now if i remember reading my American Field Manual on Terrorism correctly, i did read somewhere in the book that terrorists do seek PUBLICITY and what any media does after an attack is indeed 'beneficial' to a terrorists' cause. But then we dont know that, do we!!

So,

Solve the Kashmir Issue and not only you'll put a stop to acts like mumbai attack but would also bring peace to the entire region - that's a guarantee!


N.B. May these would also help:

Lebanonwire.com | India, Pakistan: Islamabad's Kashmiri Militant Strategy

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/world/asia/29intel.html?_r=2

etc, etc


P.S. More Shutup Calls would be provided on request

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## barcelona

Jana said:


> BJP is not a party to this issue why they jump up and down like apes



FYI Well Mr. Dilip Padgaonkar was Editor of orange newspaper TOI for a very long time so in my opinion he shouldn't be trusted iwth his views regarding Kashmir i think BJP has a point

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## Tshering22

xeric said:


> You are dumber than i thought!
> 
> Dude!
> 
> i today bet here that you DO NOT know a tosh about the word terrorism (the literal and philosophical meaning to be precise). Why, i'll come to this later.
> 
> As per indian claim the Mumbai attack was orchestrated by LeT (an outfit whose mission is to liberate Kashmir from the indian atrocities). Now is it that difficult for a buffoon to understand this simple phenomenon?
> 
> Terrorism is vague and at the same time very very specific. Vague in a sense that i dont understand why would National Liberation Front (FLN) target its own people in order to liberate Algeria, nor would i understand why would 'Muslim' Talibans target Muslims in/outside Pakistan?
> 
> But then i think a bit (this bit was small, very small) and know that FLN killed Algerians in the name of terrorism because in the words of Roger Trinquier; The goal of terrorism is control of the populace, and (means of) terrorism is a particularly appropriate weapon, since it aims directly at the inhabitant. In the street, at work, at home, the citizen lives continually under the threat of violent death. In the presence of this permanent danger surrounding him, he has the depressing feeling of being an isolated and defenceless target. The fact that public authority and the police are no longer capable of ensuring his security adds to his distress. He loses confidence in the state whose inherent mission it is to guarantee his safety. He is more and more drawn to the side f terrorists, who alone are able to protect him.
> 
> The intended objective, which is to cause the population to vacillate is thus attained. What characterizes modern terrorism, and makes for its basic strength, is the slaughter of generally defenceless persons.'
> 
> Do you actually think AQ is against the American population? Or is the American policman attitude that AQ is concerned about? Now as we all know it is the latter, then why would AQ bring down the Twin Towers and not take on the US military headon?
> 
> But then you know what, imbeciles might have difficulty understanding certain simple equations of life!
> 
> Also we also dont know that thickheaded Muslims (most of whom form the backbone of terrorists) consider Jews as their primary enemy.
> 
> Also we dont know that one of the aim of terrorism is to bring the 'cause' into international limelight. Now how to do so - the more the damage, massacre, pain and outcry (kill a Jew or Yank and you get all of these, the most!!) the more the projection. Now if i remember reading my American Field Manual on Terrorism correctly, i did read somewhere in the book that terrorists do seek PUBLICITY and what any media does after an attack is indeed 'beneficial' to a terrorists' cause. But then we dont know that, do we!!
> 
> So,
> 
> Solve the Kashmir Issue and not only you'll put a stop to acts like mumbai attack but would also bring peace to the entire region - that's a guarantee!
> 
> 
> N.B. May these would also help:
> 
> Lebanonwire.com | India, Pakistan: Islamabad's Kashmiri Militant Strategy
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/world/asia/29intel.html?_r=2
> 
> etc, etc
> 
> 
> P.S. More Shutup Calls would be provided on request





> Solve the Kashmir Issue and not only you'll put a stop to acts like mumbai attack but would also bring peace to the entire region - that's a guarantee!



A couple of thousand blood traitors don't represent the entire state's population and will be treated as terrorists. Is this by chance a disguised threat? Because simply put, there's no "kashmir issue". It is unilaterally a part of India and keeping the ethnic cleansing of 80s in mind, we can at the most accept the separatists to repatriate into your country as Pakistani citizens. They have all the freedom to cancel their Indian citizenship and move into Pakistan anytime they want. But the land stays a part of our country including the claim for rest of Kashmir state.

If necessary, disproportionate use of force will be used to achieve this against separatists and their backers. The road to peace starts from your side of the border. You could keep continuing this "Kashmir issue" game and we could get invovled in many more issues that are similarly threatening your integrity without even having to send a single soldier across the border.

But we don't want to get down and dirty. Our government even accepted LOC as international border for your sake, but you want the entire state which we cannot give---ever in either peace or in war. 

So it is all upto GOP to think what option it wants to use especially at such a fragile time.

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## somebozo

BJP is the TTP equivalent of India which likes to keep religious check on everything..soo much about secular india!


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## amigo

the only solution of kashmir is to accept loc as international border


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## Tshering22

barcelona said:


> FYI Well Mr. Dilip Padgaonkar was Editor of orange newspaper TOI for a very long time so in my opinion he shouldn't be trusted iwth his views regarding Kashmir i think BJP has a point


My words exactly. Kashmir issue is entirely Indian and BJP is very rightfully irked as am I. When Pakistan doesn't involve India in their internal matters, why do Indian apologists always try to carry our that extra card of attention-seeking diplomacy? This is nothing short of treachery and misuse of democratic freedoms.

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## somebozo

> According to Indian Army figures, over 100 militants have been killed in various operations in Indian-controlled Kashmir this year while attempting to infiltrate into this country from across the border.



This has to be the shallowest depth of balatant lying from India government. The whole world knows innocent civilians were being killed..including a child. Ironically, India is not doing anything different in Kashmir than what Pakistan did in former East-Pakistan. The bengali trade minister should have had an overlook of history before sending gifts to retired indian general!


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## MdArif

somebozo said:


> This has to be the shallowest depth of balatant lying from India government. The whole world knows innocent civilians were being killed..including a child. Ironically, India is not doing anything different in Kashmir than what Pakistan did in former East-Pakistan. The bengali trade minister should have had an overlook of history before sending gifts to retired indian general!



You're confusing deaths in protests with deaths in infiltration attempts.


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## barcelona

Tshering22 said:


> My words exactly. Kashmir issue is entirely Indian and BJP is very rightfully irked as am I. When Pakistan doesn't involve India in their internal matters, why do Indian apologists always try to carry our that extra card of attention-seeking diplomacy? This is nothing short of treachery and misuse of democratic freedoms.



actually my remarks were bit sarcastic as people tend to bash what is written in TOI as jingoistic sometimes saffron news but very convinently cherry pick it when it suits there needs 

WRT to BJP i will say its there birth right to speak abt any issue pertaining to India as its a nationalist party n i think Right of Expression has been streched too far this time around by people but i m proud that this country does have a high degree of tolerance


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## barcelona

somebozo said:


> BJP is the TTP equivalent of India which likes to keep religious check on everything..soo much about secular india!



You yourself subscribe to ideology of BJP by living in Islamic Republic of Pakistan so If BJP is eqvivalent to taliban I think you are also Taliban

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## Xeric

pundit said:


> It's like trying to hide a whole pumpkin in a plate of rice. Sure you can pretend not to see it.



Is it different from not being able to see your soldiers raping and plundering in Kashmir?




> It's linked to Pakistan's lust for Indian territory. There were zero Kashmiris among the 10 gunmen.



It's linked to india's wet dream namely Akhand Bharat. There were zero Pakistanis among those killed by your soldiers on inside Kashmir, on the LoC and those who thrashed them with stones.





> Ostensibly Pakistan pulled this terrorist stunt thinking that Indians will immediately run to the table for talks on Kashmir. This must pass for strategic thinking in Pakistan which kind of explains your overall general situation.



Ah..

On one side you and your likes give ISI too much credit and on the other you consider us stupid. i mean we would kill indians under the sun and think that it would bring india on the table without thinking that india would come rushing like a mad dog onto our borders. i think we knew about this 'reflex-action' since Kargil.


It's guud. Consider us nerds when it suites you and goofs when it dont. i know the world leaders all are kindergartens now a days.





> Possibly its the cold weather ! LOL
> 
> I dryly stated how the Pakistani threat is not credible anymore since your country is now featuring on the top 10 list of failed states. It's essentially circling the drain. Like I said, some schadenfreude for Indians, vindication of our position even.
> 
> 
> Point being, we are in a position of strength and are consolidating our gains every day. Each day that Pakistan is NOT able to do something on it's Kashmir claim is one *more* day India gets stronger. Perhaps there was an inflexion point sometime in the early 90's. Pakistan missed that bus. Sorry.


See, i dont know why did the 'we-would-have-tea-at-Lhr-Gym' syndrome vanished as quickly as it had aroused. i dont know why Op Prakram was sent back to the same hole through which it took birth. i dont know where did the 5K targets vaporized the day after they were conceived. i dont know why the IBGs are STILL poised against our borders. i dont know how Cold Start struck Gen Deepak.

i mean i dont know who the fcuk are you educating here!



> Let me know if you need help re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.


Face-palm!



P.S.

BTW, may be i should also post you a few more links telling us that Kashmir was the reason behind mumbai.

Also if we go by your (il)logic of number count of terrorists' creed then we should also take into consideration that almost all of the hijackers were Arabic but then we dont see the US attacking SA. None of the soldiers fighting the Talibans INSIDE Afgh is a Pakistani, still we see them doing deeds on our side of the border.

And wait, it was you who 'informed' us that it was LeT behind the attacks, last time i checked LeT was a militant group active INSIDE Kashmir fighting occupational forces for the CAUSE of Kashmir. i mean man, atleast you could have chosen a different terrorist group to scapegoat mumbai!


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## Xeric

Tshering22 said:


> A couple of thousand blood traitors don't represent the entire state's population and will be treated as terrorists. Is this by chance a disguised threat? Because simply put, there's no "kashmir issue". It is unilaterally a part of India and keeping the ethnic cleansing of 80s in mind, we can at the most accept the separatists to repatriate into your country as Pakistani citizens. They have all the freedom to cancel their Indian citizenship and move into Pakistan anytime they want. But the land stays a part of our country including the claim for rest of Kashmir state.
> 
> If necessary, disproportionate use of force will be used to achieve this against separatists and their backers. The road to peace starts from your side of the border. You could keep continuing this "Kashmir issue" game and we could get invovled in many more issues that are similarly threatening your integrity without even having to send a single soldier across the border.
> 
> But we don't want to get down and dirty. Our government even accepted LOC as international border for your sake, but you want the entire state which we cannot give---ever in either peace or in war.
> 
> So it is all upto GOP to think what option it wants to use especially at such a fragile time.


Ah...

Where was this gem hidden till now....?!!

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## Irfan Baloch

s6demon said:


> times of India, so the real story is probably that they killed 6 innocent Muslim Kashmiris and are now calling them terrorists.



thats the age old trick of the Indian occupation forces
they have killed the villagers that they aprehended in the seach operations then dumped their dead bodies by the road sides declaring them mujahideen

a shameful practice that goes on unnoticed


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## Irfan Baloch

Tshering22 said:


> A couple of thousand blood traitors don't represent the entire state's population and will be treated as terrorists. Is this by chance a disguised threat? .



you really need immediate medical help
being patriot is one thing but an outright moron to the Nth degree is something else
I am sorry, you really have raised the bar of the stubborn idiocy

you call this uprising of a couple of thousand tratiors?
do you have the count of how many people Indian army claims to has killed so far?
do you have the count of the independent NGOs and local hospitals too?
with your logic that insergency would have been queshed decades ago.

my oh my I never questioned the difference of opinion but you are something else anything but a sain person of a logical mind

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## Xeric

Kashmir has never been integral part of India: Arundhati Roy - Hindustan Times


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## foxbat

xeric said:


> Kashmir has never been integral part of India: Arundhati Roy - Hindustan Times



Jammu and Kashmir an integral part of India, says Sonia - Hindustan Times

duh?


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## MdArif

xeric said:


> Kashmir has never been integral part of India: Arundhati Roy - Hindustan Times



Aaj...Khush toh bahut hoge tum! lol

Nice job there quoting Arundhati Roy.


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## Xeric

foxbat said:


> Jammu and Kashmir an integral part of India, says Sonia - Hindustan Times
> 
> duh?





i was trying to tell that people who use their brains do exist in india, but then you couldnt agree!


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## MdArif

xeric said:


> i was trying to tell that people who use their brains do exist in india, but then you couldnt agree!



*CORRECTION:*i was trying to tell that people who use their brains *the way we like* do exist in india, but then you couldnt agree!

There you go! And I completely agree with you, people like Arundhati Roy are prime example.

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## foxbat

xeric said:


> i was trying to tell that people who use their brains do exist in india, but then you couldnt agree!



And your definition of using brains is to agree to an enemy POV??

DUH?


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## Xeric

MdArif said:


> Aaj...Khush toh bahut hoge tum! lol
> 
> Nice job there quoting Arundhati Roy.



It was just a news that was posted today and updated a few minutes from now. So dont go gung ho over it.

And BTW, she is atleast better than the likes of Bharat Verma..!!

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## RollingStones

xeric said:


> You are dumber than i thought!
> 
> Dude!
> 
> i today bet here that you DO NOT know a tosh about the word terrorism (the literal and philosophical meaning to be precise). Why, i'll come to this later.
> 
> As per indian claim the Mumbai attack was orchestrated by LeT (an outfit whose mission is to liberate Kashmir from the indian atrocities). Now is it that difficult for a buffoon to understand this simple phenomenon?
> 
> Terrorism is vague and at the same time very very specific. Vague in a sense that i dont understand why would National Liberation Front (FLN) target its own people in order to liberate Algeria, nor would i understand why would 'Muslim' Talibans target Muslims in/outside Pakistan?
> 
> But then i think a bit (this bit was small, very small) and know that FLN killed Algerians in the name of terrorism because in the words of Roger Trinquier; The goal of terrorism is control of the populace, and (means of) terrorism is a particularly appropriate weapon, since it aims directly at the inhabitant. In the street, at work, at home, the citizen lives continually under the threat of violent death. In the presence of this permanent danger surrounding him, he has the depressing feeling of being an isolated and defenceless target. The fact that public authority and the police are no longer capable of ensuring his security adds to his distress. He loses confidence in the state whose inherent mission it is to guarantee his safety. He is more and more drawn to the side f terrorists, who alone are able to protect him.
> 
> The intended objective, which is to cause the population to vacillate is thus attained. What characterizes modern terrorism, and makes for its basic strength, is the slaughter of generally defenceless persons.'
> 
> Do you actually think AQ is against the American population? Or is the American policman attitude that AQ is concerned about? Now as we all know it is the latter, then why would AQ bring down the Twin Towers and not take on the US military headon?
> 
> But then you know what, imbeciles might have difficulty understanding certain simple equations of life!
> 
> Also we also dont know that thickheaded Muslims (most of whom form the backbone of terrorists) consider Jews as their primary enemy.
> 
> Also we dont know that one of the aim of terrorism is to bring the 'cause' into international limelight. Now how to do so - the more the damage, massacre, pain and outcry (kill a Jew or Yank and you get all of these, the most!!) the more the projection. Now if i remember reading my American Field Manual on Terrorism correctly, i did read somewhere in the book that terrorists do seek PUBLICITY and what any media does after an attack is indeed 'beneficial' to a terrorists' cause. But then we dont know that, do we!!
> 
> So,
> 
> Solve the Kashmir Issue and not only you'll put a stop to acts like mumbai attack but would also bring peace to the entire region - that's a guarantee!
> 
> 
> N.B. May these would also help:
> 
> Lebanonwire.com | India, Pakistan: Islamabad's Kashmiri Militant Strategy
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/world/asia/29intel.html?_r=2
> 
> etc, etc
> 
> 
> P.S. More Shutup Calls would be provided on request



Oh...really? That undermines the American government's constitutional obligation to protect us wherever we are. Well..if it is LeTs stated policy to achieve maximum publicity, in your words, by going after us or just using us a tool to achieve their aims, then it is time to work with Indians to get rid of this scourge. Perhaps, some of the drones need to be shifted over to Pakistan's eastern border? We are aware of why militants do what it is they do. But we refuse to be their publicity fodder and reserve all rights to blow them to oblivion and also set an example for anyone trying to do something akin to what has been done before. Seriously...your justification for terrorism is...extra terrestrial.

*Yet for all you say, a non-violent Tibetan freedom cry has had more traction than the Kashmiri cause. *

Do you actually expect India and the world (including US support) to solve the kashmiri problem because you have this tool of a group called LeT causing mayhem? Or, do you mean to say that killing people is the way to promote/advertise a cause?? Are these your opinions or are you just professing to explain why it is what is that terrorists do? Lets be clear here: you cannot make the world listen to guns: it is not going to happen. If you and the terrorists believe this, you are on the losing side. 

America acting as the world's policeman is a nonsense generated by people who thought that America was behind some of the things happening around the world. America did not even want to be part of world wars, until it was dragged in by the freaking Japanese. America did not even step in to help the jews persecuted by the germans, until much later. Jewish folks are pissed off about this to even this day. In other wars, heavy lobbying by one party or the other is why America got dragged in. Coupled with misplaced ideals like helping out the oppressed has landed America in more soup than can be imagined. Terrorists use n number of causes to rationalize their insidious behavior. Are we going to sit around and rationalize them or make them vaporware is a question that can be easily answered?

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## S_O_C_O_M

*Kashmir has never been integral part of India: Arundhati Roy​*
Srinagar, October 24, 2010

Activist Arundhati Roy, who created a controversy the other day by questioning Jammu and Kashmir's accession to the Union, on Sunday harped on the same thing saying that the state was never an integral part of India. Roy was speaking at a seminar on the theme 'Wither Kashmir: Freedom or enslavement' organised by Coalition of Civil Societies (CCS) here.

"Kashmir has never been an integral part of India. It is an historical fact. Even the Indian Government has accepted this," the Booker Prize winner said.

Roy alleged that India became "colonizing power" soon after its independence from British rule.

Arundhati Roy shared the stage with Kashmiri separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani at the convention on 'Azadi--The Only Way', among others in Delhi on Thursday.

Kashmir has never been integral part of India: Arundhati Roy - Hindustan Times

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## riju78

i read this an hour back and was expecting jana or socom to post it soon!!! 
all i can say is (thanks to babu cheriyan's comment on HT)

*The widows and children of soldiers who died to protect India's intergrity should answer her statement of sedition. These families stretch from Kerala to Kashmir who fought againt the invasion of theocratic ideas from Pakistan and Totalitarian from East. Let those people answer the leaglity of Indian Union.*

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## Valiant_Soul

"Even the Indian Government has accepted this"

Tells me the state of her knowledge. Henceforth is on my ignore list.


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## DEXTOR

who is this arundhati roe? A loser activist who dosen't got recognised by anything and just wana get some cheap and easy popularity by giving these types of statment..! let her bark ..! jaha 9 deshdrohi hai waha 1 aur sahi...! who gives damn to what this loser activist say..i know indians don't! may be ppl in our neighbourhood..! And even by that little popularity accros the border what will she acheive?nothing...! kashmir is and kashmir will remain an integral part of india no matter wat these types of loser activist or sepretist or some internet worriers say..! let them thump there chest...!

just ignore

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## Xeric

RollingStones said:


> Oh...really? That undermines the American government's constitutional obligation to protect us wherever we are. Well..if it is LeTs stated policy to achieve maximum publicity, in your words, by going after us or just using us a tool to achieve their aims, then it is time to work with Indians to get rid of this scourge. Perhaps, some of the drones need to be shifted over to Pakistan's eastern border? We are aware of why militants do what it is they do. But we refuse to be their publicity fodder and reserve all rights to blow them to oblivion and also set an example for anyone trying to do something akin to what has been done before. Seriously...your justification for terrorism is...extra terrestrial.



Like i said to me it seems as if i am talking to a school goer. i would reserve my arguments for someone who understands and appreciates military vacab. i wonder if your are toddler in defence related sites, then why join one?

BTW, i know that now you have resorted to trolling as you dont have much useful to add.


> *Yet for all you say, a non-violent Tibetan freedom cry has had more traction than the Kashmiri cause. *


i never compared ANYTHING with Kashmir, yap with the one who took it up with you.



> Do you actually expect India and the world (including US support) to solve the kashmiri problem because you have this tool of a group called LeT causing mayhem?


*
We* dont have this tool.

i never knew yanks have also gone so low that they would talk withour proof. Man, you people have gone down!



> Or, do you mean to say that killing people is the way to promote/advertise a cause?? Are these your opinions or are you just professing to explain why it is what is that terrorists do? Lets be clear here: you cannot make the world listen to guns: it is not going to happen. If you and the terrorists believe this, you are on the losing side.
> 
> America acting as the world's policeman is a nonsense generated by people who thought that America was behind some of the things happening around the world. America did not even want to be part of world wars, until it was dragged in by the freaking Japanese. America did not even step in to help the jews persecuted by the germans, until much later. Jewish folks are pissed off about this to even this day. In other wars, heavy lobbying by one party or the other is why America got dragged in. Coupled with misplaced ideals like helping out the oppressed has landed America in more soup than can be imagined. Terrorists use n number of causes to rationalize their insidious behavior. Are we going to sit around and rationalize them or make them vaporware is a question that can be easily answered?



*Without even reading your rant let me enlighten you that what i wrote in my previous post was an extract from a book namely "Modern Warfare - A French View of Counterinsurgency' written by Roger Trinquier a French Army officer during World War II, the First Indochina War and the Algerian War, serving mainly in airborne and Special forces units. He was also a Counter-insurgency theorist, mainly with his book Modern Warfare. Roger Trinquier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia * i read this book when i was in the US as it was taught to us as part of the (US Anti-Terror) curriculum.

Now i dont know whether a counter-terrorist expert who fought insurgency almost all of his service (and the very teaching or your OWN military) have more say here or the one who is Rolling-Balls (Oopppss Stones)...

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## Urbanized Greyhound

what a blot on the name of our great nation ,she is...

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## DEXTOR

somebozo said:


> BJP is the TTP equivalent of India which likes to keep religious check on everything..soo much about secular india!



As i said earlier dont just speculate things by your brain..you ain't know anything about india and what you just say is only what you get from your media while living in "Islamic republic of pakistan"


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## Hawkish

Kashmir freedom movement is a classic text book case of self determination movement, that it had all the potential elements to achieve independence. Congrats to Pakistan for successfully screwing this genuine movement. Let me explain, how not only Pakistan dropped the cake, but let Indian take the cake.

In 80's and 90's, most countries in the world viewed Kashmiris with sympathy and support. It was an excellent opportunity since the movement had the following ingredients

1) Most Kashmiris (even today) don't want to be with India. They are more aligned with Pakistan culturally and want to be an independent nation. (Even if Kashmir is a Independence nation, it would have been a great success for Pakistan)

2) Indian Army killed, tortured/raped many in 90s and 2000. It happens today, but not to the depth happened 10 years ago.

3) More importantly, the option to discuss plebiscite was on the table at UN with active co-operation from other countries to Kashmir citizens. Now it has become a bi-lateral issue. No more multi-lateralism.

4) Most countries were neutral, but there is a clear tilt to the Kashmir cause. You can read this old declassified documents on this.

5) Curfews, press limitations, information blockage and violence was at peak during 1990s, and it was much easier to build the case for Kashmir secession from India due to human rights violations. It remains even today, but India has learned to mask this very wisely

What changed the scenario? (or how Pakistan screwed the cause?)

Pakistan literally created the impression that the problem in Kashmir is not indigenous, but created by militants crossing from their side. How did they do this?

1)Pakistan let Rogue elements in their country support Taliban that aided AQ who attacked US. 
2)Misadventure called Kargil
3)Pakistani rouge elements involvement in 26/11 misadventure
4)Rouge elements involvement in numerous other terrorist attacks

To be fair, these rogues were just a fraction of the Pakistan population, but the majority was silent and was hijacked by this ideology groups. Thus allowing Indians to turn their critical problem successfully as a 'terrorist problem' after the 9/11 that changed the world. This is a great gift Pakistan gave to India.

Now the world sees this as the terrorist issue with very few takers of the Kashmir cause, the oldest movement in the world (50 years now?)
With their support of Taliban, most view them as not qualified to talk about human rights issues. UK, UK, EU are more for LOC as a border solution. Russia will support India. France and Germany following US/EU's LOC solution. China is a silent observer, only one on Pakistan's side. OIC support is as good as waste paper as they have no voice in the world and there are several who will flip sides with India.

Who are the silent sufferers? Kashmiris. Their only support, Pakistan is now not in a position to gather international support. Movement like timor got independence, but Kashmir issue is buried. Thank you guys for the wonderful job done. 

Now, after y'all post replies here and prove the fact that I am a RAW agent (because I found fault with Pakistan) or ISI agent (because I don't believe in 'Kashmir is the integral part of India' crap) or the fact that I am a brown skin from Asia (since I took time to write this on a Pakistani forum), I will post a solution that you can use to get the world re-look at Kashmir seriously

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## RollingStones

xeric said:


> Like i said to me it seems as if i am talking to a school goer. i would reserve my arguments for someone who understands and appreciates military vacab. i wonder if your are toddler in defence related sites, then why join one?
> 
> BTW, i know that now you have resorted to trolling as you dont have much useful to add.
> 
> i never compared ANYTHING with Kashmir, yap with the one who took it up with you.
> 
> *
> We* dont have this tool.
> 
> i never knew yanks have also gone so low that they would talk withour proof. Man, you people have gone down!
> 
> 
> 
> *Without even reading your rant let me enlighten you that what i wrote in my previous post was an extract from a book namely "Modern Warfare - A French View of Counterinsurgency' written by Roger Trinquier a French Army officer during World War II, the First Indochina War and the Algerian War, serving mainly in airborne and Special forces units. He was also a Counter-insurgency theorist, mainly with his book Modern Warfare. Roger Trinquier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia * i read this book when i was in the US as it was taught to us as part of the (US Anti-Terror) curriculum.
> 
> Now i dont know whether a counter-terrorist expert who fought insurgency almost all of his service (and the very teaching or your OWN military) have more say here or the one who is Rolling-Balls (Oopppss Stones)...


 
Sure, we know why terrorists do what it is they do. After all terrorism has followed humanity for millenia. Sure, we like to study their motives - maybe it is going to aid in our efforts to negotiate with them. I dont think we need a book to understand this. The patterns are clearly visible. The other side of the story does not seem to have been well researched - how far can a government can go in protecting its citizens from mischief makers. We want to know if it is acceptable to vaporize them instantly or should we accord them the privilege of appearing before a court system et al. Perhaps, the governments should make a PR argument by simply vaporizing these groups, so it sends a strong message to wannabes and future trouble makers? Or maybe the governments should work together and setup a global fund to eliminate terrorism wherever it and whatever guise it is? Why are we reading books on what terrorists mean and can do? Where are the theories about how governments can do unto them what they do unto us? Where are the experts here?


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## scrumpy

Urbanized Greyhound said:


> what a blot on the name of our great nation ,she is...



In my opinion, the fact that she is tolerated and allowed to voice her opinions however bad they may sound to us makes our country great.

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## foxbat

Actually its the 2nd time Pakistan screwed the pooch on Kashmir. The 1st was in 1947 when it sent in its Army irregulars in the guise of Tribal forces (non state actors). It was a bit of insecurity that casued this and allowed the Indian military to intervene of Maharaj of Kashmir's request. Else if that event hadnt happened, Maharaja was bound to give in to the demand of its muslim population to acceed to Pakistan.

Well.. Its history but I feel that Pakistan's Kashmir policy has been pretty flawed from Day 1. They rightly say that making decisions around something you are sentimentally involved with is never a wise move..

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## Xeric

RollingStones said:


> Sure, we know why terrorists do what it is they do. After all terrorism has followed humanity for millenia. Sure, we like to study their motives - maybe it is going to aid in our efforts to negotiate with them. I dont think we need a book to understand this. The patterns are clearly visible. The other side of the story does not seem to have been well researched - how far can a government can go in protecting its citizens from mischief makers. We want to know if it is acceptable to vaporize them instantly or should we accord them the privilege of appearing before a court system et al. Perhaps, the governments should make a PR argument by simply vaporizing these groups, so it sends a strong message to wannabes and future trouble makers? Or maybe the governments should work together and setup a global fund to eliminate terrorism wherever it and whatever guise it is? Why are we reading books on what terrorists mean and can do? Where are the theories about how governments can do unto them what they do unto us? Where are the experts here?



Guud.
Eat what you spewed!!

i wish i could post something which the system dont allow me currently. Lucky you.

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## r3alist

pakistan is hardly responsible for the coverage of kashmir.

but you are right - if the western media wanted to take an interest there is simply a shed load of human rights violations from the indian army to focus on.


thus its actually being "actively ignored" - the us and europe have no will or desire to fairly solve the kashmir cause - and pakistan never has had a mainstream voice vis a vis kashmir

that my friend is the real problem why no one knows about it

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## DEXTOR

END RESULT :-

kashmir is and kashmir will reamin and intergral part of india no matter how much international attention it got or no matter how much pakistan support the sepratist..!

now its upto to pakistani people either stick to this kashmir issue and keep the relation with your neighbour like this forver...! or choose the path of devolopment for pakistan and move on..!

cause you aint gona get the kashmir thats for sure no matter how much internet worriers will jump to reply me..!! that will not change anything..!


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## Omar1984

foxbat said:


> Actually its the 2nd time Pakistan screwed the pooch on Kashmir. The 1st was in 1947 when it sent in its Army irregulars in the guise of Tribal forces (non state actors). It was a bit of insecurity that casued this and allowed the Indian military to intervene of Maharaj of Kashmir's request. Else if that event hadnt happened, Maharaja was bound to give in to the demand of its muslim population to acceed to Pakistan.
> 
> Well.. Its history but I feel that Pakistan's Kashmir policy has been pretty flawed from Day 1. They rightly say that making decisions around something you are sentimentally involved with is never a wise move..



The Hindu Maharaja of Kashmir was not going to hand over Kashmir to Pakistan even if Kashmir had a Muslim majority population and was attached to Pakistan geographically.

The British Mountbatten awarded Ferozepur and Gurdaspur ( Muslim majority districts in Punjab that borders Pakistan today) to India. According to the Partition plan, Muslim majority areas of Punjab were to go to Pakistan. Gurdaspur was a gateway to Kashmir thats why Mountbatten awarded Gudaspur to India because of Kashmir. He then became India's first Governor General.

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## Omar1984

Hawkish said:


> Kashmir freedom movement is a classic text book case of self determination movement, that it had all the potential elements to achieve independence. Congrats to Pakistan for successfully screwing this genuine movement. Let me explain, how not only Pakistan dropped the cake, but let Indian take the cake.
> 
> In 80's and 90's, most countries in the world viewed Kashmiris with sympathy and support. It was an excellent opportunity since the movement had the following ingredients
> 
> 1) Most Kashmiris (even today) don't want to be with India. They are more aligned with Pakistan culturally and want to be an independent nation. (Even if Kashmir is a Independence nation, it would have been a great success for Pakistan)




Independent nation of Kashmir is not in Pakistan's interest.

Kashmiri Muslims should favor Pakistan 100&#37; like Kashmiri Hindus favor India or else this freedom movement will not work.

UN resolutions gives Kashmiris only two options: chose Pakistan or chose India.


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## KS

xeric said:


> Kashmir has never been integral part of India: Arundhati Roy - Hindustan Times



Pakistani president Asif Zardari admits creating terrorist groups

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## naumananjum

Omar1984 said:


> The British Mountbatten awarded Ferozepur and Gurdaspur ( Muslim majority districts in Punjab that borders Pakistan today) to India. According to the Partition plan, Muslim majority areas of Punjab were to go to Pakistan. Gurdaspur was a gateway to Kashmir thats why Mountbatten awarded Gudaspur to India because of Kashmir. He then became India's first Governor General.



yes this is the actually all game
it was already planned

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## r3alist

another point about the OP is that it completely comes from a marketing point of view - as if to say the advertising campaign was not successful enough - of counter productive - gee what a way to look at human rights!!!!!!!!


unfortunately the ground reality and prevailing geo-political situation was far too volatile to appeal to the western masses in the way they like to see a story!!! 


pakistan can hardly influence the western media and if the suffering is real why does it need to?


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## MYSTIC

somebozo said:


> BJP is the TTP equivalent of India which likes to keep religious check on everything..soo much about secular india!



do you even understand what secularism is? How is it related to this topic?


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## Hawkish

Independent Kashmir achieved with Pakistan support can be a great achievement for Pakistan and a strategic asset in the long run

Kashmir accession to Pakistan is a pipe dream. It ain't going to happen. So instead focus on something that is feasible

1948 UN resolution means squat today. if US and EU supports, there is a great probability for Independent Kashmir. It needs some difficult decisions on Pakistan side, but it is feasible.



Omar1984 said:


> Independent nation of Kashmir is not in Pakistan's interest.
> 
> Kashmiri Muslims should favor Pakistan 100&#37; like Kashmiri Hindus favor India or else this freedom movement will not work.
> 
> UN resolutions gives Kashmiris only two options: chose Pakistan or chose India.


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## Bangalorean

So, I want to hear your "solution" - out with it. Why wait for the replies to come pouring in? Let us dissect your "solution" in addition to your "problem statement".


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## Usama86

Is there anything wrong she said? Why are you guys being so upset.... someone has the courage to speak the truth.


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## Omar1984

Hawkish said:


> Independent Kashmir achieved with Pakistan support can be a great achievement for Pakistan and a strategic asset in the long run.



Pakistan already lost a lot of its territory in 1971, we are not willing to lose an inch more. Besides Azad Kashmir is very important to Pakistan strategically, it connects Pakistan to China. We will never give up that part of Kashmir.

If only India Occupied Kashmir becomes independent that can also be a problem for Pakistan especially in Azad Kashmir. Also I doubt that neighbouring nuclear powers will let India Occupied Kashmir stay an independent sovereign country.




Hawkish said:


> Kashmir accession to Pakistan is a pipe dream. It ain't going to happen. So instead focus on something that is feasible.



We should let the people of Kashmir decide that in a referendum that was promised to them by the world in 1948.



Hawkish said:


> 1948 UN resolution means squat today. if US and EU supports, there is a great probability for Independent Kashmir. It needs to some difficult decisions on Pakistan side, but it is feasible.



According to UN resoultions, theres only 2 choices for Kashmiris, either be part of Pakistan or India. No independent option was passed in the United Nations and Pakistan will never agree on an independent option sorry.

If you are a Muslim Kashmiri you should want to be with Muslim majority Pakistan. Notice Hindus want to be India, sad that some Kashmiri Muslims want to divide the Ummah even more than it already is.


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## Pratik

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *Kashmir has never been integral part of India: Arundhati Roy​*



Now since Arundhati Roy has said something like this, i think India should give Kashmir to Pakistan immediately.

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## silent hill

so, is it better to say loc is perm border, iok is actally part of india??????????


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## sab

Pratik said:


> Now since Arundhati Roy has said something like this, i think India should give Kashmir to Pakistan immediately.


Or India should give Roy to pakistan???


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## StingRoy

Usama86 said:


> Is there anything wrong she said? Why are you guys being so upset.... someone has the courage to speak the truth.



No one's upset dude... just admiring the freedom of speech in India

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## flameboard

I oppose your take on things that Kashmir would have had independence had Pakistan not interfered. Had Pakistan not stepped up to Azad Kashmir, Kahmir would not be free. The people would still be oppressed. Look at Punjab the Sikhs in Punjab had no external support, they were alone, the separatist groups were not able to do much because they really had no resources, and so many Punajbis just left Indian Punjab, because no one was supporting them. The Sikhs were severely victimized, had Pakistan not stood up for the people of Kashmir they would have witnessed a worse fate than the Punjabi Sikhs due to hostilities created towards Muslims during the mass migration.


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## Hawkish

If you are so rigid on that, what makes you think that India will give their piece of Kashmir? Be pragmatic. Currently you are swimming against the tide and Indians are in a comfortable position. It need sacrifices to achieve Kashmir freedom



Omar1984 said:


> Pakistan already lost a lot of its territory in 1971, we are not willing to lose an inch more. Besides Azad Kashmir is very important to Pakistan strategically, it connects Pakistan to China. We will never give up that part of Kashmir.

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## Bangalorean

flameboard said:


> Had Pakistan not stepped up the Azad Kashmir would not free. The people would still be oppressed. I oppose you take on things that Kashmir would have had independence. Look at Punjab the Sikhs in Punjab had not external support, they were alone, the separatist groups were not to do much because this really had no resources, and so many Punajbis just left Indian Punjab, because no one was supporting them. The Sikhs were severely victimized, had Pakistan not stood up for the people of Kashmir they would have witnessed a worse fate than the Punjabi Sikhs due to hostilities created towards Muslims during mass migration.



Don't talk rubbish. Your country tried its very best to incite the Khalistan movement. The movement died out nearly 20 years back and no one even remembers the movement now, and the only loser was Pakistan.


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## Urbanized Greyhound

scrumpy said:


> In my opinion, the fact that she is tolerated and allowed to voice her opinions however bad they may sound to us makes our country great.



Of course ,a credit to India who can tolerate a person like her......but as far as she is concerned she must be the most shameless Indian ever....even American Bobby Fisher said he wanted to see " America wiped off the map " after he had fled to Iceland....this person is shamelessly denigrating the nation ..in New Delhi and we are apathetically watching......a shoe thrown at her would have made more sense than at Geelani imho....


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## Hawkish

The situation in Azad Kashmir is not ideal either. Most Kashmirs want neither india or Pakistan. They are fed up with Indian treatment and with the betrayal of their cause by Pakistan.



flameboard said:


> I oppose your take on things that Kashmir would have had independence had Pakistan not interfered. Had Pakistan not stepped up to Azad Kashmir, Kahmir would not be free. The people would still be oppressed. Look at Punjab the Sikhs in Punjab had no external support, they were alone, the separatist groups were not able to do much because they really had no resources, and so many Punajbis just left Indian Punjab, because no one was supporting them. The Sikhs were severely victimized, had Pakistan not stood up for the people of Kashmir they would have witnessed a worse fate than the Punjabi Sikhs due to hostilities created towards Muslims during the mass migration.


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## r3alist

Hawkish said:


> The situation in Azad Kashmir is not ideal either. Most Kashmirs want neither india or Pakistan. They are fed up with Indian treatment and with the betrayal of their cause by Pakistan.



yet if they were given the choice - that elusive dream of real democracy to choose their own fate...........


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## Omar1984

Hawkish said:


> If you are so rigid on that, what makes you think that India will give their piece of Kashmir? Be pragmatic. Currently you are swimming against the tide and Indians are in a comfortable position. It need sacrifices to achieve Kashmir freedom



Pakistan is committed to the UN resoultions of having a fair plebiscite in all parts of Kashmir and Kashmiris decide if they either want to be part of Pakistan or be part of India.

I'm not rigid, I'm just a patriotic Pakistan who loves to think about Pakistan's interests, its a hobby for me 

Are you Kashmiri Muslim?


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## Omar1984

Hawkish said:


> The situation in Azad Kashmir is not ideal either. Most Kashmirs want neither india or Pakistan. They are fed up with Indian treatment and with the betrayal of their cause by Pakistan.



Betrayal???

Have you even read the articles from Kashmir War section of this forum.

Even when Pakistan is going through its worst crisis, Pakistanis are making noise so the whole world knows whats going on in India Occupied Kashmir. Pakistan's foreign minister just went to the U.S. and gave a talk on Kashmir.

If it wasn't for Pakistanis, no one in the world would even know what Kashmir is.


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## rubyjackass

@Hawkish: Pakistan's position on Kashmir is that they want self-determination for Kashmiris, by which they mean implementing the UN Security Council resolution which means either India or Pakistan. They want 'freedom' for Kashmiris- a limited option freedom by which they mean joining Pakistan. 
This will never change, It is as difficult if not more than that of asking Indians to forget Kashmir. It is simple psychology.

The muslim brotherhood conundrum is just for feel-good sake of common Pakistani claim. 

You are right about the possible solution but wrong in assuming that Pakistan will give up Kashmir just like that. 

All three parties in the dispute have their own versions of pipe-dreams. Pakistan: that all Kashmiris want to join them. Kashmiris: An independent nation free from Indo-Pak politics. India: They basically set aside their dream of regaining PAK and Gilgit-Baltistan in the interest of their economic growth.

Pakistan and Kashmiris should understand that status-quo is most convenient for India if not comfortable with the regular protests. They should get as much as they can get from India. There is nothing that can force India to simply handover Kashmir to Pakistan or let it declare independence. So the best thing is to talk in terms of autonomy and soft borders.

Anything else will make Pakistan loose the principal in the long term-- Their economy gets weakened and there are enough people in J&K who have higher priority of unity of the state with autonomy in either country than that state joining X or Y. If it were not for the nuclear deterrence, there would have been another likely course for the future. India forcing itself upon PAK and G&B. It is to attract this unity gumbal also into his camp that Geelani calls for entire state of J&K to be joining Pakistan(including Jammu and Ladakh). We all know that this does not even qualify as a pipe-dream. 

So you give your opinions of a possible solution.





> We should let the people of Kashmir decide that in a referendum* that was promised to them by the world in 1948*.


by Omar

This is the joke I was talking about. Pakistan wants referendum promised to kashmiris in 1948. Not an all option granted one which they need now.


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## Bangalorean

The last word: India will give up Kashmir only when the Indian public sentiment overwhelmingly favours giving it up. And as of now, the Indian public sentiment is completely against giving it up. No Indian government worth its salt will give it up till domestic Indian sentiment changes. And no one else can get India to part with it unless India desires to do so voluntarily. 

So Mr.Hawkish, all this talk is futile - unless you've got some other "solution" in mind.


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## Omar1984

rubyjackass said:


> This is the joke I was talking about. Pakistan wants referendum promised to kashmiris in 1948. Not an all option granted one which they need now.



The UN resolutions are still valid today. UN status of Kashmir still stands today. Kashmir is a disputed territory between Pakistan and India.


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## silent hill

nobody has answered my basic question??, i thnk it answers itself


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## silent hill

Hawkish said:


> The situation in Azad Kashmir is not ideal either. Most Kashmirs want neither india or Pakistan. They are fed up with Indian treatment and with the betrayal of their cause by Pakistan.



can u elaborate plzz???, how we betrayed their cause??, look at the official stance of pak and bharat..

btw one question, if US can liberate kosovo, east taimur, and as it claims bosnia, then why not kashmir, pak is the most so called allied 'frnd' of US dear frnd


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## Hawkish

Omar1984 said:


> I'm not rigid, I'm just a patriotic Pakistan who loves to think about Pakistan's interests, its a hobby for me
> 
> Are you Kashmiri Muslim?



Glad you asked that question. Is there any one in India or Pakistan thinking what the average Kashmiri Joe on the street wants? Neither India nor Pakistan. True democracy is listening to the people's needs

I see only two rigid views on the forum - Indian wants Kashmir to be the part of India and Pakistan demanding that they need Kashmir. Both don't give a squat about what the average Kashmiri wants. Talk about selfishness


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## Hawkish

I did elaborate in the original post. You have failed miserably to bring the true aspirations of Kashmir people to the world. What is the situation today? India is getting away with all the crap they are doing there or done in the past. And Pakistan is voiceless. Your ad hoc statements on Kashmir to US or UN has become complete waste.Be honest to yourself. Is there anyone listening to you? Wake up change your strategy. It may be too late now




silent hill said:


> can u elaborate plzz???, how we betrayed their cause??, look at the official stance of pak and bharat..
> 
> btw one question, if US can liberate kosovo, east taimur, and as it claims bosnia, then why not kashmir, pak is the most so called allied 'frnd' of US dear frnd


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## Omar1984

Hawkish said:


> Glad you asked that question. Is there any one in India or Pakistan thinking what the average Kashmiri Joe on the street wants? Neither India nor Pakistan. True democracy is listening to the people's needs
> 
> I see only two rigid views on the forum - Indian wants Kashmir to be the part of India and Pakistan demanding that they need Kashmir. Both don't give a squat about what the average Kashmiri wants. Talk about selfishness



How will the world know what an average Kashmiri wants?

The only way to find out is through the UN referendum.

Are you Kashmiri? Or are you a non-kashmiri pretending to know what Kashmiri people want?


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## KS

Omar1984 said:


> Pakistan already lost a lot of its territory in 1971, we are not willing to lose an inch more. Besides Azad Kashmir is very important to Pakistan strategically, it connects Pakistan to China. *We will never give up that part of Kashmir.*



I actually admire your audacity.

So Pakistan is the only intelligent nation around and Indians are a bunch of fools to give our kashmir.

Independent kashmir ..anyone.??



Omar1984 said:


> *If only India Occupied Kashmir becomes independent that can also be a problem for Pakistan especially in Azad Kashmir*. Also I doubt that neighbouring nuclear powers will let India Occupied Kashmir stay an independent sovereign country.



Dont worry..as a friendly neighbour we will not create that difficult situation for you.I guess you know what I mean. 





Omar1984 said:


> We should let the people of Kashmir decide that in a referendum that was promised to them by the world in 1948.



Five lines before you were saying that "we will not give an inch of our Kashmir" and now "Kashmiris should decide ". I guess 





Omar1984 said:


> According to UN resoultions, theres only 2 choices for Kashmiris, either be part of Pakistan or India. No independent option was passed in the United Nations and Pakistan will never agree on an independent option sorry.



Now again self-contradicting yourself by saying Pakistan will not allow the wish of the Kashmiris (plebiscite) to happen. OMG you are hilarious




Omar1984 said:


> *If you are a Muslim Kashmiri you should want to be with Muslim majority Pakistan*. Notice Hindus want to be India, sad that some Kashmiri Muslims want to divide the Ummah even more than it already is.



So where did the Right of Self-Determination go now.?? To the trash eh?

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## Hawkish

Omar1984 said:


> The UN resolutions are still valid today. UN status of Kashmir still stands today. Kashmir is a disputed territory between Pakistan and India.



Omar: I don't dispute this. You just can't put your head on the sand. It is good on paper. Who is giving a crap about the 1948 UN resolution today? No one.


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## Omar1984

Hawkish said:


> I did elaborate in the original post. You have failed miserably to bring the true aspirations of Kashmir people to the world. What is the situation today? India is getting away with all the crap they are doing there or done in the past. And *Pakistan is voiceless*. Your ad hoc statements on Kashmir to US or UN has become complete waste.Be honest to yourself. Is there anyone listening to you? Wake up change your strategy. It may be too late now



How is Pakistan being voiceless.

Whenever a Pakistani politician is invited to other countries or speaks in media, most of the time he/she is talking about human rights violations in India Occupied Kashmir and trying to persuade the world for help in resolving the Kashmir issue, more than flood victims and damages by the floods in most of the country.

What more do you expect Pakistan to do?


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## flameboard

Bangalorean said:


> Don't talk rubbish. Your country tried its very best to incite the Khalistan movement. The movement died out nearly 20 years back and no one even remembers the movement now, and the only loser was Pakistan.



it still exists, a group member was arrested in Canada a while back.


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## Hawkish

Omar1984 said:


> How will the world know what an average Kashmiri wants?
> 
> The only way to find out is through the UN referendum.
> 
> Are you Kashmiri? Or are you a non-kashmiri pretending to know what Kashmiri people want?



You may not like the fact. But Kashmirs don't want to be part of India or Pakistan either


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## Hawkish

Omar1984 said:


> How is Pakistan being voiceless.
> 
> Whenever a Pakistani politician is invited to other countries or speaks in media, most of teh time he/she is talking about human rights violations in India Occupied Kashmir, more than flood victims and damages by the floods in most of the country.
> 
> What more do you expect Pakistan to do?



Action speaks louder than words. Read my OP. How your actions are hurting you. 

You can shout everyday about Kashmir. And your FM ands PM are probably doing that. And answer my question: How many countries respond positively to your requests? None. They also say - go back and talk to India. They all believe the Indian version of terrorism in Kashmir


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## rubyjackass

To your initial suggestion that Pakistan screwed up Kashmir's cause, I agree and disagree. Then there would be no *Kashmir*'s cause. Without Pakistan, India would have noone to point fingers at after the uprising and would have been forced to reconcile with the state governemtn and society. May with a permanent article370 Kashmiris would have been satisfied, had Indian media highlighted the HR violations of army and made the rest of India's civil society known about them. Or India would atleasst make it appear so by bringing ssome popular leader onto the stage and promising to Kashmiris complete pre-1953 autonomy. Some things just didnot come in time for India-Kashmir relationship.

Pre military operation and the mistreatment of kashmiri state governments by the centre, most advocates of Kashmir azadi were the advocates of muslim brotherhood who wanted J&K to join Pak. There were not many people in favor of an independent state outside India. Just because there was no precedent. All the states joined either India or Pakistan. There was no definition of 'India' for quite sometime among different states. States like Indian J&K, Tamilnadu all were at the same stage of accepting the idea of being part of India. There were seccesionist movements even in these so called 'mainstream Indian states' for quite sometime, into the late 70s even later in Punjab. Not many Kashmiris knew what difference the UNSC resolution made in their case. At about the same time J&K's government was dismissed, Andhra Pradesh's government was also dismissed, many political parties suffered. And that was party time for the marginalised separatists and Pakistani leadership. There if they had not interfered, and if Indian government had acknowledged the Kashmiri wounds there would be no Kashmiri movement now. 

But yes, the last two decades of violence and radical Islamisation of Kashmir has been Pakistan's gift. So in conclusion, for reminding Kashmiris of their special status constantly and for alienating them from India, Pakistan deserves the credit till before Kargil. Post uprising and pre-kargil was when Kashmir's case was the strongest. Then Pakistan ****** on Kashmiri dreams with Kargil. This part, I agree with you. Pakistan comes with this heavy baggage of extremism and says 'We support Kashmiri cause. Kashmiris are dying to join Pakistan' and the Kashmiri sympathizers slip away one after the other.


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## silent hill

Hawkish said:


> I did elaborate in the original post. You have failed miserably to bring the true aspirations of Kashmir people to the world. What is the situation today? India is getting away with all the crap they are doing there or done in the past. And Pakistan is voiceless. Your ad hoc statements on Kashmir to US or UN has become complete waste.Be honest to yourself. Is there anyone listening to you? Wake up change your strategy. It may be too late now



actually we were doing it for 60 yrs, and we were very focused before musharraf, till then, no NO US help???

now USA is ignoring to stand for cause for now, tnx to pakistan frndship hand, actually u r betraying big tym


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## Hawkish

Omar

More than any one in the forum, I believe Kashmirs are suppressed by Indians. and they need independence. But why is Pakistan not able to deliver this message effectively to their allies? Forget others, let us at least look at their close friend US. Are you able to sell the idea to them? No

So mere talking alone is not going to solve the problem. Is there a creditability issue?



Omar1984 said:


> How is Pakistan being voiceless.
> 
> Whenever a Pakistani politician is invited to other countries or speaks in media, most of the time he/she is talking about human rights violations in India Occupied Kashmir and trying to persuade the world for help in resolving the Kashmir issue, more than flood victims and damages by the floods in most of the country.
> 
> What more do you expect Pakistan to do?


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## Avatar

Hawkish said:


> I see only two rigid views on the forum - Indian wants Kashmir to be the part of India and Pakistan demanding that they need Kashmir. Both don't give a squat about what the average Kashmiri wants. Talk about selfishness



Actually, there can be no "Independent Kashmir". Pakistan will *never* let go it's side of Kashmir because of "strategic interests" just like Pakistan wants Taliban in Afghanistan, irrespective of what Afghans want. 

Kashmir as a nation can exist, but it wont be a successful nation. From the Indian Kashmiris that I have interacted with, they want to be with India and want a progressive, stable state just like other Indian states. 

Pakistan relies on loans and aid to keep it's own economy afloat, after absorbing Kashmir it will be a tough struggle to remain stable. 

Conclusion : Declaring LOC as official border is the best option for Pakistan. Waiting is the best option for India. 

Also, the "Crimes" you emphasize on. More people have been killed in Karachi in 4 days than Kashmir in months.

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## Omar1984

Hawkish said:


> You may not like the fact. But Kashmirs don't want to be part of India or Pakistan either



Pakistan has done a lot for Kashmiris, like it or not.

We have lost soldiers for Kashmir. 

During the Kashmir earthquake in 2005, help for Kashmirs came from all parts of Pakistan. Ask Kashmiris in Azad Kashmir.

Whenever we get a chance to go to international forums or our politicians go meet other leaders we always raise our voices about Kashmir. Whenever we join an organization we always raise our voices about Kashmir.

Dont dare put Pakistan in the same category as india when it comes to Kashmir. india wants to hide Kashmir from the world and continue murdering and raping unarmed Kashmiris in India Occupied Kashmir and bring their hindu settler to settle in Kashmir like zionists in Palestine.


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## Avatar

Hawkish said:


> More than any one in the forum, I believe Kashmirs are suppressed by Indians.



Can you please elaborate to justify your statement ?

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## Hawkish

So that is the process you described. I don't deny your sacrifices. But would you care to look at the RESULT now? Do you see any tangible results in Pakistan's favor internationality as a result of your sacrifice?

or Has these sacrifices have been off-set by your own foolish makings in the past? Think about it



Omar1984 said:


> Pakistan has done a lot for Kashmiris, like it or not.
> 
> We have lost soldiers for Kashmir.
> 
> During the Kashmir earthquake in 2005, help for Kashmirs came from all parts of Pakistan. Ask Kashmiris in Azad Kashmir.
> 
> Whenever we get a chance to go to international forums or our politicians go meet other leaders we always raise our voices about Kashmir. Whenever we join an organization we always raise our voices about Kashmir.
> 
> Dont dare put Pakistan in the same category as india when it comes to Kashmir. india wants to hide Kashmir from the world and continue murdering and raping unarmed Kashmiris in India Occupied Kashmir and bring their hindu settler to settle in Kashmir like zionists in Palestine.


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## StingRoy

Omar1984 said:


> Pakistan has done a lot for Kashmiris, like it or not.
> We have lost soldiers for Kashmir.


You think the lives of Indian soldiers not valuable for us. If you claim you have done a lot for the Pakistani Kashmiris, why haven't they been given representation in the govt?



> During the Kashmir earthquake in 2005, help for Kashmirs came from all parts of Pakistan. Ask Kashmiris in Azad Kashmir.


Then explain me this article:
*Quake anniversary marked by shutterdown, protests in AJK *

A crippling shutterdown strike was observed in the Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK) capital on the fifth anniversary of 2005 earthquake on Friday, with people from different walks of life, including those with disabilities, staging rallies and demonstrations to condemn alleged delay in reconstruction, embezzlement of funds meant for the purpose and apathy of the authorities towards their plight.


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## S_O_C_O_M

dezi said:


> No one's upset dude... just admiring the freedom of speech in India



what a lame reply


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## Hawkish

Avatar said:


> Can you please elaborate to justify your statement ?




I don't see any voice in this forum in support of what a true Kashmiri wants. Both India and Pakistan simply wants the Kashmir to themselves. That is selfish. I support their views which is truly they want to be an independent nation. This is a fact. 

Give the three options to them. They will choose to be independent. they hate India and frustrated with Pakistan.


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## Omar1984

Hawkish said:


> So that is the process you described. I don't deny your sacrifices. But would you care to look at the RESULT now? Do you see any tangible results in Pakistan's favor internationality as a result of your sacrifice?
> 
> or Has these sacrifices have been off-set by your own foolish makings in the past? Think about it



What do you think Pakistan should do to bring a RESULT into the Kashmir cause?


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## Bangalorean

Hawkish said:


> I don't see any voice in this forum in support of what a true Kashmiri wants. Both India and Pakistan simply wants the Kashmir to themselves. That is selfish. I support their views which is truly they want to be an independent nation. This is a fact.
> 
> *Give the three options to them. They will choose to be independent. they hate India and frustrated with Pakistan*.



First, I want to know what you understand by 'Kashmir'. If you are talking about the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir, I hope you know that 40% of the population is Buddhist/Hindu who want to remain with India. Even Muslims in Kargil and other regions (not part of valley) want to remain with India (look it up). 

Just mentioned it in case you didn't know.


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## Avatar

Hawkish said:


> I don't see any voice in this forum in support of what a true Kashmiri wants. Both India and Pakistan simply wants the Kashmir to themselves. That is selfish. I support their views which is truly they want to be an independent nation. This is a fact.
> 
> Give the three options to them. They will choose to be independent. they hate India and frustrated with Pakistan.



That is not what I asked you. What I wanted you to elaborate is what makes you believe, more than anyone else on the forum, that Kashmiris are suppressed by India ? Why dont you go to Indian Kashmir yourself and check it out ? 

Also #42 pretty much sums up everything. The title of the thread is an apt conclusion to it. There will never be an independent kashmir even if India agrees to it.

Lastly, what's your view on Aksai Chin ?

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## Hulk

What do you mean by freedom? What will Kashmir get if it becomes free which it cannot get by staying with India. Please answer this question, about military presense in civilian areas, if there is peace they will be removed.

Considering there is no military in civilian area, please list down what additional Kashmiri's will get by being free that they cannot get know. I just want to understand this point.

They have their own government even now.
Kashmir is more protected from migrants then any other country in the world. There is no other place in this earth where outseiders cannot buy land. Not that I have heard off.
So what extactly will Kashmiri's get by being free?


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## Hawkish

Omar1984 said:


> What do you think Pakistan should do to bring a RESULT into the Kashmir cause?



Ok; First you have the support of China. That is great, but you need three more key players on your side. - US, UK and EU. It is a difficult process and you can get them on your side if you give them what they want. Forget France, Australia, Germany etc. They will fall in place if the big three are in your net

Unlike India, all the three are business like; That means you can negotiate with them. I don't think you need a lesson on how to negotiate. You are doing excellent job with us. So give them what they want and you will get what you want. As simple as that. I believe you hold several trump cards - Afgan Victory, Mulla, OBL etc. Use this trump card wisely

For US:

Give the victory in Afghan to US. There is nothing that will make us happy as emerging victorious from Afgan. Also give'em laden, Mulla and other top guns in Taliban. Ask for their support in Kashmir. I bet you will have a positive outcome. ISI and Pakistan Army can do this if they have the political will.

Similar approach to UK and EU. Prove to them that you got rid of safe havens. Trust me they will switch sides.

India is aspiring to be a super power. They need nuclear Fuel, UN membership and wants to be recognized as a power by all the top 5. We can leverage this to address Kashmir issue

This is difficult, but possible. You need Political will to implement this tough decisions. But the good news is that majority of Pakistani citizens and the Press will back you in this project

Forget Indian noise about Kashmir being integral part etc... We know how to get them by their balls.

Are you ready?

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## Avatar

indianrabbit said:


> What do you mean by freedom? What will Kashmir get if it becomes free which it cannot get by staying with India. Please answer this question, about military presense in civilian areas, if there is peace they will be removed.
> 
> Considering there is no military in civilian area, please list down what additional Kashmiri's will get by being free that they cannot get know. I just want to understand this point.
> 
> They have their own government even now.
> Kashmir is more protected from migrants then any other country in the world. There is no other place in this earth where outseiders cannot buy land. Not that I have heard off.
> So what extactly will Kashmiri's get by being free?



Nothing. Some other Indian state will become the next Kashmir, when Kashmiris realize that the grapes were indeed sour.


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## Hulk

Avatar said:


> Nothing. Some other Indian state will become the next Kashmir, when Kashmiris realize that the grapes were indeed sour.



I know this very well, people shouting for freedom does not even know what it means.

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## Hawkish

Do you guys believe that Kashmir is normal now? Look at the protest and violence that is happening. can an Indian Prime minister visit Kashmir without the ARMY presence for a week and return?




indianrabbit said:


> What do you mean by freedom? What will Kashmir get if it becomes free which it cannot get by staying with India. Please answer this question, about military presense in civilian areas, if there is peace they will be removed.
> 
> Considering there is no military in civilian area, please list down what additional Kashmiri's will get by being free that they cannot get know. I just want to understand this point.
> 
> They have their own government even now.
> Kashmir is more protected from migrants then any other country in the world. There is no other place in this earth where outseiders cannot buy land. Not that I have heard off.
> So what extactly will Kashmiri's get by being free?


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## Hulk

Hawkish said:


> Do you guys believe that Kashmir is normal now? Look at the protest and violence that is happening. can an Indian Prime minister visit Kashmir without the ARMY presence for a week and return?



Read my post again.


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## Hulk

I found this thing today.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/kashmir.htm


> *In 1952 the elected and overwhelmingly Muslim Constituent Assembly of Jammu and Kashmir, led by the popular Sheikh Mohammed Abdullah, voted in favor of confirming accession to India. Thereafter, India regarded this vote as an adequate expression of popular will and demurred on holding a plebiscite*



Now if elected government of Kashmir passed this in assembly, was their any protest against it? If not then is it not true that Kashmiri accepted it.

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## Avatar

Hawkish said:


> Ok; First you have the support of China. That is great, but you need three more key players on your side. - US, UK and EU. It is a difficult process and you can get them on your side if you give them what they want. Forget France, Australia, Germany etc. They will fall in place if the big three are in your net
> 
> Unlike India, all the three are business like; That means you can negotiate with them. I don't think you need a lesson on how to negotiate. You are doing excellent job with us. So give them what they want and you will get what you want. As simple as that. I believe you hold several trump cards - Afgan Victory, Mulla, OBL etc. Use this trump card wisely
> 
> For US:
> 
> Give the victory in Afghan to US. There is nothing that will make us happy as emerging victorious from Afgan. Also give'em laden, Mulla and other top guns in Taliban. Ask for their support in Kashmir. I bet you will have a positive outcome. ISI and Pakistan Army can do this if they have the political will.
> 
> Similar approach to UK and EU. Prove to them that you got rid of safe havens. Trust me they will switch sides.
> 
> India is aspiring to be a super power. They need nuclear Fuel, UN membership and wants to be recognized as a power by all the top 5. We can leverage this to address Kashmir issue
> 
> This is difficult, but possible. You need Political will to implement this tough decisions. But the good news is that majority of Pakistani citizens and the Press will back you in this project
> 
> Forget Indian noise about Kashmir being integral part etc... We know how to get them by their balls.
> 
> Are you ready?



If only Pakistan's leaders were as wise as you, they would lose everything they have left lol. 


If they do what you've stated : 

1) Pakistan loses influence in Afghanistan. 
2) USA emerges victorious, packs up WOT, no longer needs Pakistan as much as now. 
3) Gives away everything it has except the Atom Bomb, for a possible opinion gain in the Kashmir cause. 
4) Using full force against the Taliban, LeT, etc, Pakistan will invite upon itself more violence than ever before. 
5) While all this is happening, India could be a much bigger economic powerhouse, having much more importance to the Business oriented nations. Favoring Pakistan would mean loss of valuable trade with India. 
6) Wrong doings of half a century cannot be erased in a decade. 
7) As India develops, I mean, really develops..and Pakistan gets more prone to a collapse, I doubt if any thoughtful Kashmiri would wish to join Pakistan.

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## Avatar

Hawkish said:


> Do you guys believe that Kashmir is normal now? Look at the protest and violence that is happening. can an Indian Prime minister visit Kashmir without the ARMY presence for a week and return?



Doubtful. Not because the local populace is a threat to him, but because the ISI sponsored agents would be under incredible pressure toharm him. The protest and violence is a small portion of the big picture. The protesters who are an extremely small part are making things worse for the entire population. If India is so bad, why dont other Indian states demand freedom ? 

Do you even know the significance of the name, "Kashmir" ?


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## somebozo

This article pathetically fails at what ever it is trying to express.
The world opnion hasnt changed by any means and the millitant propoganda is largely indian. Either the millitants are too smart able to profiltrate in a small chunk of land having more soldiers than civilians or the 700 thousand indian army in IOK is the world most incompetent force!


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## Hulk

For its stake on Kashmir
1) India has intrument of accession 
2) India has the resolution passed by government of Kashmir, headed by Muslim of valley that it agree's to accession with India (1953).

What does Pakistan have to keep its land of Azad Kashmir?

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## Trichy

S_O_C_O_M said:


> what a lame reply



its not lame, its the truth. if not tell some one like her to speak like this in China/Myanmar/Iran/N.Korea etc... they are in grave now..

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## airuah

Hawkish said:


> Do you guys believe that Kashmir is normal now? Look at the protest and violence that is happening. can an Indian Prime minister visit Kashmir without the ARMY presence for a week and return?



what can pakistan do for kashmir? all i can see is another bomb blast(in the likes of peshwar,lahore ,karachi), fake puppets in power......failing economy. besides they have already given a part of it to china.....they are already sell outs....terrorism wont stop coz now the terrorists are fighiting pakistan too). they become indian muhajjirs or what ever you call it and hence are treated loke second class citizens......this last thing was evident from one of the pakistani members post here regarding muslims who moved from various parts of present day india to pakistan during the partition..i am sure you all know that somebo**

if kashmir is with india(i.e if that was a complete settlement and pakistan does not interfere again and hence troops move out completely)-----they elect their own leaders already, a fast growing economy,development,better life ,no gun culture here in India,they are free(some are holding anti-india rallies under indian protection). kashmir is a tourist hotspot....and foreigners are not vary of india viz-a viz pakistan


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## Tshering22

> 1948 UN resolution means squat today. if US and EU supports, there is a great probability for Independent Kashmir. It needs some difficult decisions on Pakistan side, but it is feasible



Seriously? US and EU would want to support a cause that is already indirectly draining them billions of $$ and suffer our displeasure of multi-billion dollar revenues they get from our businesses and economic deals? Think again.

Neither US nor EU are in a position to do this. This is not illegal sessation of Bosnia and neither this is 90s. There's simply too much to lose for both politically and economically.

This is a corporate world dude. I am surprised that I've to tell you this despite you living in USA--the most capitalist country on this planet.


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## silent hill

indianrabbit said:


> For its stake on Kashmir
> 1) India has intrument of accession
> 2) India has the resolution passed by government of Kashmir, headed by Muslim of valley that it agree's to accession with India (1953).
> 
> What does Pakistan have to keep its land of Azad Kashmir?



lolzzzz, resolution by puppet govt of indian kaashmir?


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## Hawkish

Kashmir exposure (or the lack of) today is not because of India's good deeds in Kashmir but due to Pakistan playing the spoiler role. I believe this can reversed, if Pakistanis changes their course. the question is: Will they? They have some key trump cards which India does not have.

India's upper hand today is because support from the big guys. If this support is negotiable, India will dance to the tune.

Let me say is: For US, everything is available on the table for negotiation. We don't rule out anything and we know what string to pull to move India in the right direction 



Tshering22 said:


> Seriously? US and EU would want to support a cause that is already indirectly draining them billions of $$ and suffer our displeasure of multi-billion dollar revenues they get from our businesses and economic deals? Think again.
> 
> Neither US nor EU are in a position to do this. This is not illegal sessation of Bosnia and neither this is 90s. There's simply too much to lose for both politically and economically.
> 
> This is a corporate world dude. I am surprised that I've to tell you this despite you living in USA--the most capitalist country on this planet.


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## Hawkish

Pakistan has the powerful bargaining chip. It is eliminating terrorists safe heavens, Taliban, AQ and bringing in peaceful settlement to Afghan problem today. US and NATO heavily depends on Pakistan for this. No one can do this not India, not China and not Iran or Afgans themselves.

If Pakistan can deliver on this, they can negotiate the price catch, namely the Kashmir. They can also play a moderator role for many issues in Europe, being a moderate Muslim country.

The problem is that no one is thinking in those line in Pakistan, and you guys in India have become lucky. Not because of your good deeds, but because you have a neighbor who keep giving you these gifts now and than




Tshering22 said:


> Seriously? US and EU would want to support a cause that is already indirectly draining them billions of $$ and suffer our displeasure of multi-billion dollar revenues they get from our businesses and economic deals? Think again.
> 
> Neither US nor EU are in a position to do this. This is not illegal sessation of Bosnia and neither this is 90s. There's simply too much to lose for both politically and economically.
> 
> This is a corporate world dude. I am surprised that I've to tell you this despite you living in USA--the most capitalist country on this planet.


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## Hulk

silent hill said:


> lolzzzz, resolution by puppet govt of indian kaashmir?



Well Pakistan has nothing, zero. Nill bate sannata.


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## Hulk

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Lashk...mir-in-2000-says-Headley/Article1-617459.aspx

Pakistani-American Lashkar operative David Coleman Headley has reportedly told US and Indian investigators that the March 2000 Chittisinghpora village massacre, which took place three days before then US President Bill Clinton&#8217;s visit to India, had been carried out by the Lashkar-e-Tayyeba.

India&#8217;s security establishment had always blamed the LeT and the Hizbul Mujahideen for the massacre in Anantnag district of south Kashmir.

But many others &#8212; including the US administration &#8212; doubted the claim. President Clinton condemned the massacre, but was cautious to blame &#8220;unknown groups&#8221;. Years later, writing the introduction to his then secretary of state Madeleine Albright&#8217;s subsequent book Madam Secretary: A Memoir, he is said to have blamed &#8216;Hindu militants&#8217; for the attack. The reference was however, edited out by the publishers.

Strobe Talbott, then deputy secretary of state, later confirmed Clinton was never convinced the Lashkar was behind the violence.

A number of facts about the killings led to these doubts. Most important was the fact that most of those killed were Sikhs. Sikhs had never before been targeted by Kashmiri militants.

An army encounter five days later in Pathribal village, which was later found to have been staged, indicated there was more behind the Chhittisinghpur killings than met the eye.

Before the visit of President Barack Obama to India &#8212; he is expected on November 6 &#8212; the National Investigation Agency has revealed Headley had said an LeT operative called Muzzammil &#8212; aide of Lashkar&#8217;s chief military commander Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi &#8212; had spoken to him of his involvement in the Chittisinghpora massacre.

"I recollect that once Muzzammil had told me how he had gone and killed civilians in a village in south Kashmir before the visit of the then US President Bill Clinton to India. After coming to Muzaffarabad, he was initially given the charge of operations,&#8221; Headley told NIA sleuths in the presence of FBI agents.

Headley also credited Muzzammil, 34, with planning and conducting the Akshardham Temple attack in Gujarat, according to his 109-page interrogation report apart from helping with the 26/11 attacks.

The confirmation of the Lashkar role is significant in the backdrop of noises from ***************** Kashmir. Syed Salahuddin, who heads the United Jihad Council &#8212; the amalgam of militant outfits active in Kashmir &#8212; has &#8220;cautioned&#8221; that Indian security agencies could carry out another massacre such as the one in Chattisinghpora and blame it on terrorists.

Indian agencies maintain Salahuddin&#8217;s statement could be an effort to draw suspicion away from the jehadis, who may well be planning a major attack.

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## FreekiN

And he reveals this about a year after capture?

And that too something Indians WANT to hear?

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## Hulk

"Quit Kashmir Movement" has started in Pakistani Occupied Kashmir 

To reinforce the ongoing Quit Kashmir movement in Kashmir, hundreds of JKLF workers on Friday staged a demonstration at Khoierata adjacent to the Line of Control (LoC).

Besides JKLF stalwarts, the demonstration was attended by the members of JKSLF (student wing of the party) and a large number of people hailing from southern district of Kotli, Nakial, Charoi and Sehansa.

JKLF activists told Greater Kashmir that hundreds of people particularly the youth participated in the rally. He said the participants gathered at Khoierata and later marched towards Seeri village near to the LoC.

The rally culminated peacefully near the border village of Seeri in district Kotli. 

Addressing protesters, the speakers including JKLF Chairman Sardar Sahgir Advocate expressed their support to Kashmiris` ongoing peace struggle for right to self-determination. Lauding the political resolve of Kashmiri peoples they said that they (Kashmiris) had rendered matchless sacrifices to achieve their cherished goal.

Terming Kashmir as an indivisible entity they said all out efforts would be made to protect the political as well as the geographical integrity of the erstwhile state of Jammu and Kashmir.

As a part of the ongoing Restoration of national integration campaign " the speakers said that JKLF would hold another protest long-march from Hajeera to Teetrinote in District Rawalokat on October 25. They said another protest march would be taken from Muzaffarabad to Chakoti on October 27

---------- Post added at 09:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 PM ----------

A movement against Pakistan&#39;s illegal occupation of Azad Kashmir - Yahoo! India News

Mon, Oct 18 05:35 PM
Azad Kashmir, October 18: Azad Kashmir has been illegally occupied by Pakistan. It has its own elected President, Prime Minister, legislature, high court and an official flag.

But, the puppet government is controlled by Pakistan. Azad Kashmir wants `complete independence from Islamabad and the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) faction led by Amanullah Khan has launched a Quit Kashmir Movement.

At a meeting held in Rawalpindi on September 30, 2010, JKLF has decided to hold a series of protest demonstrations in Azad Kashmir and in Gilgit and Baltistan.


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## bandit

FreekiN said:


> And he reveals this about a year after capture?



He was interrogated by the NIA in July this year; my counting says its three months..... Security agencies aren't supposed to brief the media about all their findings, usually its the leaks that reveal information...like this one.



> And that too something Indians WANT to hear?[/



More like something Pakistanis wouldn't like the world to hear, that the terrorists they try to justify as _"freedom fighters"_ carry out massacres of civilians, and the terrorism that is justified as_ jihad for freedom _is actually extremist hate killings targeting certain religious minorities.

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## Hulk

Azad Kashmir CJ Riaz deposed, Justice Manzoor-ul-Hassan appointed as acting CJ
Found this at the following link.

JKNIA Letter to British House of Commons/Lords and MEP`S.

To,

The candidates for UK parliamentary elections summer 2010.

Dear Sir/Madam,

Re:

The issue of an occupation of Jammu Kashmir, violation of Human rights, and the threat to the regional peace in South East Asia in the future.

I am writing to you on behalf of Jammu Kashmir National Independence Alliance (JKNIA ) which is an alliance of Kashmiri political organisations in the UK working for the peaceful settlement of the Kashmir issue to achieve a united, independent,secular and democratic Jammu Kashmir for all the people of Jammu Kashmir.

You may already be aware of the occupation of Kashmir issue. This directly affects approximately 700,000 people of Kashmiri origin who are citizens of UK and would like to see a resolution of the long standing Kashmir issue.There are currently over half a million Indian forces in Indian Occupied Kashmir and there is constant violation of human rights including torture, abductions, **** of women, murder of innocent Kashmiri men, women and children.

*The so called government institutions in both the Indian occupied Kashmir (IOK) and Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (***) are serving the political interests of their respective masters in India and Pakistan, without regard to the views of the ordinary citizens of Jammu Kashmir. [For example Pakistan Government has recently annexed Gilgit Baltistan (as a de-facto Pakistani province) which is historically an integral part of Jammu Kashmir.] As a consequence there is a deprivation in infrastructure and a huge lack of resources for health facilities, education and employment for the people of Jammu Kashmir which affects them deeply and causes suffering on a daily basis.*
Without going into the detail or history of the issue (which some of you will be fully aware of) we are writing to you at this important point in time before the General Election in 2010. At this important time the UK citizens of Jammu Kashmir origin will participate in the elections and may be able to influence the outcome of elections in some constituencies throughout the UK. We should be obliged if you would address the following points in particular:

*

As an individual candidate please clarify your position on the resolution of the Kashmir issue leading to the creation of a unified, independent and democratic Jammu and Kashmir.
*

The position of your Political Party in this respect
*

How you and your party in your respective roles regardless of whether or not you win would help the Kashmiris in the UK and JKNIA in particular to advance the core cause for resolution of this very important issue.

No doubt you will be aware that until and unless this issue is resolved there is a grave danger to peace in this region and to the World at large. As both nuclear powers India and Pakistan continue to regard this as a territorial dispute for their own interests and ignore the views of the people of Jammu Kashmir. Kindly acknowledge safe receipt of this letter a timely response to this letter will be appreciated. We trust this clarifies this matter if however you have any further queries or questions on this important issue please do not hesitate to contact us.

Yours faithfully,

Nadeem Aslam,

General Secretary JKNIA Email- nadeemjknia@aol.com


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## sasuke

It's like we are getting daily horoscopes from Headly. Bored of this news on his information. 

Nothing is being done and I will only be interested if the Government is taking some action!!!


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## foxbat

Omar1984 said:


> The Hindu Maharaja of Kashmir was not going to hand over Kashmir to Pakistan even if Kashmir had a Muslim majority population and was attached to Pakistan geographically.
> 
> The British Mountbatten awarded Ferozepur and Gurdaspur ( Muslim majority districts in Punjab that borders Pakistan today) to India. According to the Partition plan, Muslim majority areas of Punjab were to go to Pakistan. Gurdaspur was a gateway to Kashmir thats why Mountbatten awarded Gudaspur to India because of Kashmir. He then became India's first Governor General.



Well. Pakistan jumped the gun and we will now never know.. Would we. ? However, had that invasion by Pakistan army irregulars hadnt happened, Pakistan would have had a much stronger case aganist accession to India if that went down..Not anymore...


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## foxbat

Omar1984 said:


> Pakistan already lost a lot of its territory in 1971, we are not willing to lose an inch more. Besides Azad Kashmir is very important to Pakistan strategically, it connects Pakistan to China. We will never give up that part of Kashmir.
> 
> If only India Occupied Kashmir becomes independent that can also be a problem for Pakistan especially in Azad Kashmir. Also I doubt that neighbouring nuclear powers will let India Occupied Kashmir stay an independent sovereign country.



True colors coming out? 





Omar1984 said:


> According to UN resoultions, theres only 2 choices for Kashmiris, either be part of Pakistan or India. No independent option was passed in the United Nations and Pakistan will never agree on an independent option sorry.


A lot of members on the forum dont seem to agree with you.. About Independent Kashmir that is..



Omar1984 said:


> If you are a Muslim Kashmiri you should want to be with Muslim majority Pakistan. Notice Hindus want to be India, sad that some Kashmiri Muslims want to divide the Ummah even more than it already is.



And what about 165 million Muslims in India? Or are they no longer considered Muslims because they live in India?


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## MdArif

^^ In things like terrorism when most of the perpetrators are sitting across the border, there's little the govt. can do.


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## Zeluvaa

Hawkish said:


> Kashmir exposure (or the lack of) today is not because of India's good deeds in Kashmir but due to Pakistan playing the spoiler role. I believe this can reversed, if Pakistanis changes their course. the question is: Will they? They have some key trump cards which India does not have.
> 
> India's upper hand today is because support from the big guys. If this support is negotiable, India will dance to the tune.
> 
> Let me say is: For US, everything is available on the table for negotiation. We don't rule out anything and we know what string to pull to move India in the right direction



When India was sitting in the Soviet camp and Pakistan was getting up all cozy with USA during the Cold War days. When Pakistan helped discard SU from Afghanistan. Even during these days USA was not able to do squat against India in terms of Kashmir.

What makes you think US can do anything now? What are these so called _strings_ you're talking about?

As India grows Economically and Militarily, US would become more and more reluctant to go against India. Even now you can see the effects when US told Pakistan it will not mediate.

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## flameboard

> YouTube - Indian soldiers running to hide while many injured crying Kashmir Day2



anyone see the door slam on the soldier's hand?


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## bandit

Terrorists massacre of Pandits in the name of freedom movement...






Massacres perpetrated by _freedom fighters._

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## PakSher

bandit said:


> Terrorists massacre of Pandits in the name of freedom...
> 
> YouTube - Nandimarg Massacre : Killing of 23 Kashmiri Hindus by Islamic Terrorists in Kashmir



It is a sad thing for the 23 Hindus to be killed, but it is nothing as compared to the 120,000 plus muslims that have been killed in Kashmir since the 1990s.

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## Donatello

Gilgit Baltistan, has been transformed into an amazing piece of land by none other than, Sir Agha Khan.


There are no issues with education or infrastructure.

This is typical delusional Indian rant.



You really have to go to Gilgit and see what i am talking about.


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## bandit

PakSher said:


> It is a sad thing for the 23 Hindus to be killed, but it is nothing as compared to the 120,000 plus muslims that have been killed in Kashmir since the 1990s.



120,000 killed where did ou get that figure from, official sources put total killings at ~70,000, composed of hindu muslim and a large portion of terrorists.

23 Hindus seems nothing much to you? Take a look at only the major incidents against Pandits.




> *Major terrorist attacks on Hindus in Jammu and Kashmir from July 23, 1997 *
> Date Year Fatalities
> Mangnar / Poonch 12-Jul	2006	4
> Mountain hamlets of Kulhand . 1-May	2006	22
> Lalon Galla, a high-altitude meadow 1-May	2006	13
> Banganga, two kilometers from Katra, on way to the Vaishno Devi shrine. 21-Jul	2003	7
> Nandimarg, Pulwama district 23-Mar	2003	24
> Rai Sehot, Rajouri district 25-Feb	2003	4
> Raghunath and Panjbakhtar temples, Jammu 24-Nov	2002	13
> Thanamandi, Rajouri 9-Sep	2002	5
> Maalbani, Udhampur district 30-Aug	2002	3
> Thanamandi and Manjakote, Rajouri	23-Aug	2002	10
> Pahalgam 6-Aug	2002	8
> Anantnag 30-Jul	2002	2
> Qasimnagar, Jammu 13-Jul	2002	28
> Dodasanbain, Rajouri 8-Jul	2002	5
> Nunwan Base Camp near Pahalgam, 6-Jul	2002	9
> Kaluchak, Jammu 14-May	2002	30
> Behota, Doda district 3-May	2002	5
> Nagri Dudah, Doda 10-Apr	2002	5
> Dandat, Udhampur 8-Apr	2002	8
> Mangota, Rajouri 4-Mar	2002	4
> Bambal, Rajouri 16-Feb	2002	8
> Maligaom, Doda 6-Jan	2002	3
> Luru Doda	-do-	-do-	3
> Mangal Top, Poonch district 31-Dec	2001	6
> Sadda Kamthal, Rajouri 29-Dec	2001	3
> Banihal, Doda 22-Aug	2001	5
> Moran Katnaz, Udhampur 30-Nov	2001	7
> Dhansali Dhar, Doda 9-Nov	2001	2
> Bilawar, Kathua 25-Sep	2001	2
> Kinara, Rajouri 30-Aug	2001	7
> Dundai, Poonch 27-Aug	2001	2
> Dhar Sareri, Rajouri 24-Aug	2001	2
> Thandi Bihak, Udhampur district 14-Aug	2001	5
> Jammu railway station 7-Aug	2001	13 (7 Hindus)
> Saroot Dhar area, Doda 3-Aug	2001	13
> Sheshnag, Anantnag 22-Jul	2001	13
> Chiragi, Doda 22-Jul	2001	8
> Tagdoo-Chattra, Doda 22-Jul	2001	5
> Kishtwar, Doda 15-May	2001	11
> Pathimal, Doda 24-Nov	2000	5
> Sherbibi, Doda 22-Nov	2000	4
> Indh, Udhampur 19-Aug	2000	4
> Pahalgam August 1-2	2000	23
> Kadran, Qazigund August 1-2	2000	20
> Sandoo, Anantnag August 1-2	2000	7
> Kiyar, Doda August 1-2	2000	8
> Kunda, Doda August 1-2 2000	12
> Jammu-Srinagar 28-Feb	2000	4
> Harni, Poonch 27-Feb	2000	5
> Liyotta, Doda 19-Jul	1999	15
> Ari village, Poonch 1-Jul	1999	9
> Sarandu, Anantnag 29-Jun	1999	15
> Bariyana, Udhampur 20-Feb	1999	9
> Mora Putta, Rajouri 20-Feb	1999	4
> Bela Tilala, Rajouri 20-Feb	1999	7
> Hama and Saranwar, Kishtwar 28-Jul	1998	15
> Banihal, Doda 19-Jun	1998	26
> Parankote, Udhampur 18-Apr	1998	26
> Wandhama, Ganderbal, Srinagar 26-Jan	1998	23
> Sawari, Rajouri 23-Jul	1997	8

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## bandit

^^^ Thats heartening to hear.

So when are you guys giving them azadi?


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## MdArif

^^ The total works out to 550.

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## Jade

*An Indian inter-ministerial group India is considering restrictive measures against Chinese companies working in projects in Pakistan occupied Kashmir (***). The measures may include their debarment from all projects and other forms of business in India*. 

The companies are mainly in power telecom, railway, roads and urban infrastructure projects in ***. 

Specific measures will be decided by the group headed by national security advisor M K Narayanan and finance secretary Ashok Chawla.

A senior security official admitted that the measures aimed to pressure the Chinese government to be more sensitive to Indias concerns on Kashmir.

*Thirteen Chinese companies, some of which are government owned, operating in *** are under watch. They include Gezhouba Water & Power Company, China National Machinery & Equipment Import & Export Corporation, China Three Gorges Project Corporation, Sinohydro Corporation, China Road & Bridge Corporation, Dongfang Electric Corporation, China International Water & Electricity Corporation, China Telecom and Huawei Technologies (HT).*

Many of these are already under the Indian intelligence scanner for their alleged links with the Chinese military establishment.

*If India does impose the bar, half of the companies will be impacted. Many of the companies are already in India, bidding for and/or working on various projects. *The security official said the measures might be necessary as diplomatic protests had not worked.

India had earlier protested against Chinese companies working on projects in ***. In October prime minister Manmohan Singh voiced concerns at projects aimed at upgrading or establishing direct road and rail links between China and Pakistan through disputed territory.

China rejected the protests, saying the companies participation in power, urban infrastructure and telecom projects was commercial in nature.

Financial Chronicle e-mailed queries to both the Indian external affairs ministry and the Chinese embassy in New Delhi but got no reply from either.

What has caused special ire is Dongfang Electric Corporations involvement in a project to establish a rail link between Havelian and Kashgar through the Khunjerab pass along the Karakoram highway. The Research & Analysis Wing has the company on watch for alleged links with Chinas Peoples Liberation Army. In India the company either bidding or already executing eight hydroelectric and thermal power projects. It set up an India office in Kolkata in November last year.

China Telecom, a government-owned company, is executing an optic cable link between Khunjerab and Xinjiang in China. This company and Reliance Communications recently opened the first direct terrestrial optical cable link between India and China. It is also involved another similar project with Tata Telecom.

China Mobile, another state-owned company, is providing network coverage along the Karakoram highway and the northern parts of ***. It has 6.5 per cent market share in Pakistan. In India it has been in talks with several companies.

Huawei is also providing an optic link between Khunjerab and Xinjiang. It has an R&D centre in Bangalore. It has reportedly been blacklisted by BSNL for not completing contractual obligations. An e-mailed questionnaire sent to Huawei remained unanswered.


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## StingRoy

Lets not compare statistics here... they are after all someone's son, brother and parents and each life lost is priceless and not worthy of just a number in the statistics.

The number of Kashmiri pandits seems to be less because a majority are living outside of the valley... and primarily because they are never a part of the protests or stone pelting mobs. Most of the pandits killed are cold blooded murders, hence they cannot be compared in statistics with the kashmiri muslims in this argument.

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## PakSher

Good luck. Chinese-Pakistan strategic relations cannot be harmed with this BS idea.

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## MdArif

For China, Indian Kashmir is disputed and Pakistani Kashmir is not. lol talk about hypocrisy!

*On topic:* The move is good for sending the signal to the Chinese but I doubt if it will be really effective. We should also keep in mind that we need Chinese investment in infrastructure projects such as roads and highways etc.


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## Jade

MdArif said:


> For China, Indian Kashmir is disputed and Pakistani Kashmir is not. lol talk about hypocrisy!
> 
> *On topic:* The move is good for sending the signal to the Chinese but I doubt if it will be really effective. We should also keep in mind that we need Chinese investment in infrastructure projects such as roads and highways etc.



Yes we need Chinese Investment...but more than that... China needs markets for its economic well being and growth. Markets such as India are few...there are many countries that can fill the shoes of China in investment in India; however the reverse is not true


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## PakSher

jade1982 said:


> All of Kashmir including P-O-K is legally a part of India. This has got nothing to do with China Pakistan relations. This is our way protesting to China...and it is a serious matter



Yes, according to Indian stance *** is part of India. But according to the 2 pending resolutions in the UN on Kashmir and 3 resolutions at the OIC, Kashmir is part of Pakistan and the Kashmiri people have a right of self determination.

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## MdArif

*'Kashmir stone-pelters funded by Pakistan'*​
Srinagar: Kashmir stone-pelters were funded by Pakistan, says the outgoing Director General of the CRPF in Jammu and Kashmir, as interlocutors prepare to talk to all sections. The DG of the CRPF, says stone pelting in the Valley was multi-dimensional and even had large scale monetary support of across the border.

Stone-pelters are a common sight on the streets of Kashmir over the last three months. Security forces are now saying these stone pelting protests are neither purely local nor sporadic but funded in a big way from across the border.

"There are intercepts which prove that there is support from outside and money comes from across which is paid to stone-pelters," said Special DG CRPF NK Tripathi.






Earlier, the Union Home Minister had said that the stone-pelters had support of Pakistan and even terrorist outfits like Laskar-e-Toiba, but local opinion was that most of the protests were spontaneous. Later, even Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, in a change of stance, had described the stone-pelters as leaderless youth.

But security forces, say ulterior motives cannot be ruled out. This year, agitations could even spill over to the winters. The greater concern, however, is the visit of US President Barack Obama to India next month (November).

"The separatist have tasted this sort of authority on the masses. There maybe sporadic incidents in winter. They have talked about this visit and saying security forces are trying to suppress," said NK Tripathi

And so even though there is now a lull in the stone pelting, for security forces there is little room for either provocation or complacency.

'Kashmir stone-pelters funded by Pakistan' - India News - IBNLive

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## PakSher

jade1982 said:


> Yes we need Chinese Investment...but more than that... China needs markets for its economic well being and growth. Markets such as India are few...there are many countries that can fill the shoes of China in investment in India; however the reverse is not true



If Dalia Lama is expelled from India and all of his offices and the Tibet's propoganda material is expelled from India then China may consider it, until then just keep babblling nothing will happen. There are plenty of markets for China to go to, if India closes its markets.

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## StingRoy

If it is indeed imposed then it will cause a major confrontation between the Chinese and the Indian govt. Of course if the Chinese govt has some sense of the scale of the economic impact, they sure will consider this seriously since the market for Chinese infrastructure companies within India is huge compared to what they will get in Pakistan. Lets wait n watch.


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## MdArif

*@Paksher:* Please name me a market comprising 300million consumers and growing!


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## StingRoy

^^ you meant just the middle class customers right. But it is more than the consumer market... these are huge infrastructure companies who will have access to billions of dollars worth of project in India if they chose to defy the restrictions.

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## huzihaidao12

You really do not have a sense of reality. This is the infrastructure, what do you think?


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## Jade

PakSher said:


> If Dalia Lama is expelled from India and all of his offices and the Tibet's propoganda material is expelled from India then China may consider it, until then just keep babblling nothing will happen. There are plenty of markets for China to go to, if India closes its markets.



It is fine by us...tell these things to Chinese...as for Dalia Lama, India stand is very clear...he is our guest hence no question of expelling


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## hoax

PakSher said:


> Good luck. Chinese-Pakistan strategic relations cannot be harmed with this BS idea.



Dude your country is just a pawn ... It was for Americans during cold war .. now Chinese are playing with you against India...



Remember how Americans used to be your No. 1 ally??

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## hoax

Dont blame the local people..
What else can they buy from Pakistani funds?? only stones ..

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## Abu Zolfiqar

too bad i didnt know earlier about this convention......did any of our media cover it?

---------- Post added at 08:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 AM ----------




scrumpy said:


> In my opinion, the fact that she is tolerated and allowed to voice her opinions however bad they may sound to us makes our country great.



same with Asma Jahangir of Pakistan


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## KindlyCruel

Sathiya gai hai budhhiya!


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## MdArif

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> too bad i didnt know earlier about this convention......did any of our media cover it?




Poora ka poora convention hee aapke logon ne karaya tha!

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## hoax

KindlyCruel said:


> Sathiya gai hai budhhiya!



Just follow this link here
*
She:*
Supports Kashmiri _separatism_
Supports_ Naxals_.

*And also she is:*
Against death sentence for the terrorists of 2001 Indian Parliament attack
Against _Sardar Sarovar Project._
Against_ Indo-US relations._
Against _India's nuclear weaponisation._
Against _Indo-Israel relations._

She can do anything to get cheap Publicity...


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## Dr sim

amount of stuff she says against the Govt in her own country, if she was saying even half in some of our neighbouring countries ,no points for guessing her current state then

its cool that she is championing the cause of some sections of downtrodden of the society but she should not abuse the freedom that india grants her

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## Areesh

@Topic.

Well good try but Chinese already knew it was coming but still they go for it. So nothing would happen just like staple visas for people of IOK.


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## Areesh

Capt.Popeye said:


> ^^^
> The news on sat TV is that the encounter seems to have ended and 3 terrorists have been sent on the budget airline-"Bullet Airlines" (cheapest way to fly). They are all on board now to fulfill their date with 72 virgins.
> Farewell!!





prototype said:


> the 72 virgins must b exhausted by now due to the numbers we r sending every yr,but they r very much waiting for kasab,he should b also sent as early as possible



BTW talking about virgins. How many virgins do your soldiers get when they die in IOK. I hope they(soldiers) are straight though.

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## foxbat

Guys, this 72 virgin things is not good.. The Islamic connotation is very different and all of us have been playing with a skewed interpertation of that. Just because a bunch of terrorists use this to lure impressionable young men into the life of violence and extremism, we should not be playing the same game to discredit those guys..


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## INDIAN007

Good Job Indian Army......are there any casualities on army side?????


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## MYSTIC

prototype said:


> the 72 virgins must b exhausted by now due to the numbers we r sending every yr,but they r very much waiting for kasab,he should b also sent as early as possible



You are wrong. They are not fighting for 72 virigins. They are fighting for freedom.


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## KindlyCruel

foxbat said:


> You misread. Only the terrorists died. No one from the armed forces was hurt.


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## HAIDER

prototype said:


> the 72 virgins must b exhausted by now due to the numbers we r sending every yr,but they r very much waiting for kasab,he should b also sent as early as possible


Well, don't bring quranic verses as joke, it look funny in Indian forum,but not here. You are entitle to have your opinion and we respect and welcome, but no flaming and no disrespect of Muslims religion.
Otherwise, i would support life long ban of such statements.


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## MYSTIC

that stone is huge...

but still smaller than a bullet.


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## MYSTIC

hoax said:


> Just follow this link here
> *
> She:*
> Supports Kashmiri _separatism_
> Supports_ Naxals_.
> 
> *And also she is:*
> Against death sentence for the terrorists of 2001 Indian Parliament attack
> Against _Sardar Sarovar Project._
> Against_ Indo-US relations._
> Against _India's nuclear weaponisation._
> Against _Indo-Israel relations._
> 
> She can do anything to get cheap Publicity...



What he says in from a humanitarian POV. It is really easy said and done. But when you look at alternatives there are mostly either not present or are not feasible. It easy to talk of world peace and wage a war against hunger, but if you do not have a definite answer to world peace and hunger that is feasible you should not open your mouth.


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## LadyGaga

He seems to be pelting Rocks and not stones.


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## KindlyCruel

MdArif said:


> *'Kashmir stone-pelters funded by Pakistan'*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Kashmir stone-pelters funded by Pakistan' - India News - IBNLive



Have a look at the guy smiling behind this person..
It makes me feel that he doesn't even know why he is here,cuz if it was a serious protest,the facial expression would have been different.
Depicts the fact that they are funded stone pelters.

His expression is just like some students protesting against the university management for a "time-pass".

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## jayron

Usama86 said:


> Is there anything wrong she said? Why are you guys being so upset.... someone has the courage to speak the truth.



She is courageous. I agree.. But she doesn't know what to do with it. She takes on the most controversial subjects and opposes the popular view to grab headlines. 

She actually has some truth behind what she believe but she often goes to the other extreme to prove her point which often comes out as anti-national. I'll be happy to listen to what she says if she were a little more moderate doesn't cross the line in the name of fighting for the oppressed. She only fights for those who already have media attention. Not for the really oppressed who needs help.


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## Xeric

Karthic Sri said:


> Pakistani president Asif Zardari admits creating terrorist groups


Connection? No, right?

Anywaz...

Pakistani president Asif Zardari admits creating terrorist groups - Telegraph


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## mjnaushad



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## KS

M


xeric said:


> Connection? No, right?
> 
> Anywaz...
> 
> Pakistani president Asif Zardari admits creating terrorist groups - Telegraph
> 
> p



I can't be spoonfeeding every little thing to a "Think Tank"....take ur time to think about it

And next time show the face palm to your "President" for acknowledging the truth , that u guys are trying so hard to conceal.....That "Kashmiri militants are indeed terrorists"...


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## Avatar

Hawkish said:


> Kashmir exposure (or the lack of) today is not because of India's good deeds in Kashmir but due to Pakistan playing the spoiler role. I believe this can reversed, if Pakistanis changes their course. the question is: Will they? They have some key trump cards which India does not have.
> 
> India's upper hand today is because support from the big guys. If this support is negotiable, India will dance to the tune.
> 
> Let me say is: For US, everything is available on the table for negotiation. We don't rule out anything and we know what string to pull to move India in the right direction



We have inherited a very rich culture of music and dance, that does not mean we dance to anybody's tunes. I appreciate your sympathy for the Kashmiris, based on your weak interpretation. However, there is a reason why US is getting close to India. Presently India has a non aligned policy, having the best of both worlds. Indias's growth is beyond dependence on American companies outsourcing to India. To put it more clearly, American companies *depend* on India to keep costs low.

Kashmir is a very delicate issue, and India is determined enough to *not dance to America's tunes. *

Please dont flatter yourself. America is a falling superpower and it needs the fastest growing democracy on it's side.

Losing an economic powerhouse of 1 billion people in exchange for cleansing your sins ? You gotta be kidding. 

If America *does* side with Pakistan, there is no way in hell that India will give up Kashmir. Remember 1971 ? The only friend that Asia's begging bowl had was Russia, and we created a new nation and earned ourselves the greatest post WW surrender, and there was nothing US or it's friends could do about it. If the west sides with Paksitan, it will motivate India to resolve disputes with China and develop a close alliance, which will dictate the fate of the new world order. China, India, and Russia will become the new world. America will topple like a house of cards. Kashmir will be a strong, unsuccessful protest, *at what cost ? *

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## Areesh



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## pmukherjee

As a democracy, we are mature enough to tolerate nuisance like her. Over the years, she has made herself inconsequential and irrelevant. Now she only has nuisance value left as no one takes her seriously any more. Any punitive action from the government will only give her the legitimacy she lacks and should therefore be avoided. There is very little good or bad that she can do apart from getting a few lines on page 3 somewhere. So just let her be.

Since she has more admirers abroad than in India, maybe she will contemplate migrating elsewhere. But I don't think so, she will continue to enjoy the hospitality of the nation to the fullest, the same nation she so loathes and reviles.

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## Xeric

Karthic Sri said:


> M
> 
> I can't be spoonfeeding every little thing to a "Think Tank"....take ur time to think about it
> 
> And next time show the face palm to your "President" for acknowledging the truth , that u guys are trying so hard to conceal.....That "Kashmiri militants are indeed terrorists"...



Have ever seen me 'concealing' this? i never even visited the crappy thread.

So carry-on enjoying the face palm, please.

BTW, i can now see the hardship your brain is facing in understanding the mechanics behind my previous post. Not surprising though.


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## ChinaRocks

Nothing to worry about as we all know india talks alot but do very litle


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## sensenreason

PakSher said:


> Yes, according to Indian stance *** is part of India. But according to the 2 pending resolutions in the UN on Kashmir and 3 resolutions at the OIC, Kashmir is part of Pakistan and the Kashmiri people have a right of self determination.



Your statement is self contradictory. The UN resolution says that a plebiscite is to determine if J & K will be with Pakistan or India.

How does it become Pakistan's? OIC can take a walk anyways....


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## sensenreason

ChinaRocks said:


> Nothing to worry about as we all know india talks alot but do very litle



You mean you would be worried if India were to ban these companies in reality. Good to know.

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## Irfan Baloch

xeric said:


> Have ever seen me 'concealing' this? i never even visited the crappy thread.
> 
> So carry-on enjoying the face palm, please.
> 
> BTW, i can now see the hardship your brain is facing in understanding the mechanics behind my previous post. Not surprising though.




what I really am pleased about is that so many many Indians with their original and duplicate accounts are taking the time and effort in posting comments in the Kashmir channel

in the face of street protests and outright disdain of India by the Kashmiris every day where we see protests of tens of thousands, the Indian prime minister is visibly shaken and is almost begging the Kashmiri freedom leadership to calm down and scale down the protests. 

But funnily enough some Indian posters think that it is only a couple of thousand Kashmris who are causing the trouble for Indian occupation. What does it say about the 1 million Indian military that is priming it self to now take on China? One really wonders if these covert trolls think before writing or just want to make these threats a joke fest.

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## pmukherjee

Exactly why and how does India need China? The balance of trade between the two is heavily skewed in China's favor anyway which implies that India buys more Chinese products than vice versa. We are aware that the bulk of Chinese imports are cheap and unreliable low tech stuff. Therefore, a selective ban on non essential Chinese imports will definitely not hurt us, it may instead bring relief to many small scale industries feeling the pinch due to Chinese competition.

Regarding, China being made to take into account Indian sensibilities, by all means. How can they do business with us in India while hurting our interests elsewhere? No country can do that and expect to get away.


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## Xeric

Irfan Baloch said:


> what I really am pleased about is that so many many Indians with their original and duplicate accounts are taking the time and effort in posting comments in the Kashmir channel
> 
> in the face of street protests and outright disdain of India by the Kashmiris every day where we see protests of tens of thousands, the Indian prime minister is visibly shaken and is almost begging the Kashmiri freedom leadership to calm down and scale down the protests.
> 
> *But funnily enough some Indian posters think that it is only a couple of thousand Kashmris who are causing the trouble for Indian occupation.* What does it say about the 1 million Indian military that is priming it self to now take on China? One really wonders if these covert trolls think before writing or just want to make these threats a joke fest.


No no..Irfan you got it wrong. The indians are right, absolutely right. What you dont understand is that they still consider/believe that still One Pakistani/Kashmiri equals 10 indians.  Oh i love when they tell us this, i dont know how lame one has to be to believe in this!

And as far as their military is concerned, well a few here also vigorously advocated that they dont consider Pakistan as a threat, infact. Well may be they are right, you know what, Pakistan was never a threat, it was just the indian expansion/wipe-you-off attitude that was coming back to them every now and then, or else all the neighbors surrounding india would have been in peace and enjoyed _real _friendly relationships with them. May be they need to send in another Brigade or two in Kashmir so that they can commit more atrocities, HR violations and rapes!

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## MYSTIC

pmukherjee said:


> Exactly why and how does India need China? The balance of trade between the two is heavily skewed in China's favor anyway which implies that India buys more Chinese products than vice versa. We are aware that the bulk of Chinese imports are cheap and unreliable low tech stuff. Therefore, a selective ban on non essential Chinese imports will definitely not hurt us, it may instead bring relief to many small scale industries feeling the pinch due to Chinese competition.
> 
> Regarding, China being made to take into account Indian sensibilities, by all means. How can they do business with us in India while hurting our interests elsewhere? No country can do that and expect to get away.



Sirjee, our manufacturer are greedy and have really high profit margins. That is why they fall behind chinese companies. Our cost of labor is equal to that of China but our margin levels are higher. Cheap products made in India is no different from cheap product made in China. Only difference is Chinese products are cheaper as we operate at higher margins while Chinese operations are volume-based.

A product made for $1 in China can be made for $1 in India as well. But when I import this product from China I will have to pay around 22% worth of duties + freight charges. This would increase the price to $1.25. Also the importer would have to go through our terrible customs to get the goods (sometimes is quick but sometimes takes months). Our manufacturer would price us $1.3 (as many local distributors would not like their goods stuck at customs as it would adversely affect their business) to reap max benefits they get due to our protectionist government. Therefore, it is only the Indian manufacturer who profiting and the consumer is paying the higher price.

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## KS

xeric said:


> BTW, i can now see the hardship your brain is facing in understanding the mechanics behind my previous post. Not surprising though.



Oh believe me I very well understand the mechanics and physics behind your post.

Thats why I'm not wasting my time in trying to reply to you seriously,like I do to some other posters.


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## KindlyCruel

PakSher said:


> If Dalia Lama is expelled from India and all of his offices and the Tibet's propoganda material is expelled from India then China may consider it, until then just keep babblling nothing will happen. There are plenty of markets for China to go to, if India closes its markets.



Where do you find the population as big as the Indian one for the Chinese goods except China itself?!

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## Tshering22

PakSher said:


> Good luck. Chinese-Pakistan strategic relations cannot be harmed with this BS idea.


Are you sure? Because in normal economics, money and prestige flows in a two-way direction which is not the case in some places. The placing of bar has a matter of billions at stake just as Chinese can arm-twist US companies working in China. 

It is simply business way of getting things done in today's context. You won't understand it unless you're yourself able to develop similar capabilities and dictate terms to international entities working in your country against your wishes.


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## sensenreason

MYSTIC said:


> Sirjee, our manufacturer are greedy and have really high profit margins. That is why they fall behind chinese companies. Our cost of labor is equal to that of China but our margin levels are higher. Cheap products made in India is no different from cheap product made in China. Only difference is Chinese products are cheaper as we operate at higher margins while Chinese operations are volume-based.
> 
> A product made for $1 in China can be made for $1 in India as well. But when I import this product from China I will have to pay around 22% worth of duties + freight charges. This would increase the price to $1.25. Also the importer would have to go through our terrible customs to get the goods (sometimes is quick but sometimes takes months). Our manufacturer would price us $1.3 (as many local distributors would not like their goods stuck at customs as it would adversely affect their business) to reap max benefits they get due to our protectionist government. Therefore, it is only the Indian manufacturer who profiting and the consumer is paying the higher price.



Manufacturing requires the following:

Technology
Capital (meaning Money)
Land
People

India has a problem of not having good labour which is disciplined and hard working.....The managers are fine but the workers are not. This impacts productivity and costs

India lags ability to produce 'low' to medium tech products as they are labour intensive and as in earliar point..its a problem

Land is the MOST DIFFICULT resource to acquire for manufacturing unless you have deep pockets, patience and connections to evict people if required.

Capital is nowadays least of the worries...but if you were an entrepreneur try raising the capital for a middle sized manufacturing outfit...

Now to performance..India exports about USD 200 Billion worth of goods and China about USD 1300 Billion...where's the comparison? I dont see any. Lets compare to South Korea. Thats more apt.

GOI tried to build SEZs for each vertical and thats failed as they have become land grabbing and money laundering tools.The only manufacturing thats worked is pure private enterprise dependent on foreign tech(atleast initially) and Indian managerial workers...eg Auto.


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## Tshering22

Hawkish said:


> Kashmir exposure (or the lack of) today is not because of India's good deeds in Kashmir but due to Pakistan playing the spoiler role. I believe this can reversed, if Pakistanis changes their course. the question is: Will they? They have some key trump cards which India does not have.
> 
> India's upper hand today is because support from the big guys. If this support is negotiable, India will dance to the tune.
> 
> Let me say is: For US, everything is available on the table for negotiation. We don't rule out anything and we know what string to pull to move India in the right direction


If at all you had a choice of doing this, you'd have done it during the Clinton era. There's nothing you can do about this as this is a solely bilateral matter. Kashmir is going to stay ours and away from the hands of non-Indian entities. Separatists have all the rights and freedom to move to their Pakistani brothers' country and we won't stop them. But the land remains ours.

Neither US nor EU can do anything about it.

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## Hawkish

Don't take US support as granted and discount Pakistan. If Pakistan can help US in Afgan, Pakistan will be rewarded. 



Avatar said:


> We have inherited a very rich culture of music and dance, that does not mean we dance to anybody's tunes. I appreciate your sympathy for the Kashmiris, based on your weak interpretation. However, there is a reason why US is getting close to India. Presently India has a non aligned policy, having the best of both worlds. Indias's growth is beyond dependence on American companies outsourcing to India. To put it more clearly, American companies *depend* on India to keep costs low.
> 
> Kashmir is a very delicate issue, and India is determined enough to *not dance to America's tunes. *
> 
> Please dont flatter yourself. America is a falling superpower and it needs the fastest growing democracy on it's side.
> 
> Losing an economic powerhouse of 1 billion people in exchange for cleansing your sins ? You gotta be kidding.
> 
> If America *does* side with Pakistan, there is no way in hell that India will give up Kashmir. Remember 1971 ? The only friend that Asia's begging bowl had was Russia, and we created a new nation and earned ourselves the greatest post WW surrender, and there was nothing US or it's friends could do about it. If the west sides with Paksitan, it will motivate India to resolve disputes with China and develop a close alliance, which will dictate the fate of the new world order. China, India, and Russia will become the new world. America will topple like a house of cards. Kashmir will be a strong, unsuccessful protest, *at what cost ? *


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## Kinetic

somebozo said:


> This article pathetically fails at what ever it is trying to express.


Not more than you!!! 


> The world opnion hasnt changed by any means and the millitant propoganda is largely indian.


Thats why Pakistan is shouting for mediation and no one is interested!!! 


> Either the millitants are too smart able to profiltrate in a small chunk of land having more soldiers than civilians



lol More soldiers than civilians!! Most of the soldiers are positioned along LoC so that no militants from Pakistan get into Kashmir. 



> or the 700 thousand indian army in IOK is the world most incompetent force!



Its being proved who is incompetent and who is asking for others to help!!!

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## Anuj-Saxena

Amidst all the blah-blah...............what all you guys think wud be the most viable option for all parties....

Make the LOC int boundary........Rants apart, no one is going to budge from their position...Pakistan has chunk of K territory, so does Indian and China....

Better that way


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## Omar1984

Hawkish said:


> Ok; First you have the support of China. That is great, but you need three more key players on your side. - US, UK and EU. It is a difficult process and you can get them on your side if you give them what they want. Forget France, Australia, Germany etc. They will fall in place if the big three are in your net
> 
> Unlike India, all the three are business like; That means you can negotiate with them. I don't think you need a lesson on how to negotiate. You are doing excellent job with us. So give them what they want and you will get what you want. As simple as that. I believe you hold several trump cards - Afgan Victory, Mulla, OBL etc. Use this trump card wisely
> 
> For US:
> 
> Give the victory in Afghan to US. There is nothing that will make us happy as emerging victorious from Afgan. Also give'em laden, Mulla and other top guns in Taliban. Ask for their support in Kashmir. I bet you will have a positive outcome. ISI and Pakistan Army can do this if they have the political will.
> 
> Similar approach to UK and EU. Prove to them that you got rid of safe havens. Trust me they will switch sides.
> 
> India is aspiring to be a super power. They need nuclear Fuel, UN membership and wants to be recognized as a power by all the top 5. We can leverage this to address Kashmir issue
> 
> This is difficult, but possible. You need Political will to implement this tough decisions. But the good news is that majority of Pakistani citizens and the Press will back you in this project
> 
> Forget Indian noise about Kashmir being integral part etc... We know how to get them by their balls.
> 
> Are you ready?



Pakistani blood is not that cheap. Pakistan already has made too many sacrafices. More Pakistani troops and Pakistani civilians have died in this war OF terror than Americans who brought this war into Pakistan.

Pakistanis come first. Our people have already made so many sacrafices.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/23296-honoring-our-martyrs.html

Pakistanis are not willing to lose more troops and more civilians by battling the same people that the world's largest army and 7 other nations' troops can't defeat. That'll be suicide for Pakistan.

Besides, OBL is not even in Pakistan. If he was, I'm sure Pakistan would hand him over. Because of him Pakistanis are suffering.


And I doubt you are Kashmiri. Maybe an American who thinks OBL is in Pakistan. Tell CIA to give the exact location of OBL to ISI, and ISI will gladly hand him over to U.S. so this miserable war can be over.


----------



## Omar1984

foxbat said:


> So at the end of it, all the cr@p about caring for Kashmiri freedom and brotherhood is simply a land grab attempt by Pakistan?



Kashmiri freedom and brotherhood is very important to Pakistanis. Pakistanis strongly condem the murders and rapes of Kashmiris by indian troops.

Also Kashmir, the land, is a disputed territory between Pakistan and india. This is also a fact.


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## Anuj-Saxena

@Omar

U say disputed terri, I say NOT...what now,

whr do we go from here? Put forward most practical options..


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## Kinetic

Omar1984 said:


> Kashmiri freedom and brotherhood is very important to Pakistanis.



'Freedom' means Kashmir as a part of pakistan??? 



> Pakistanis strongly condem the murders and rapes of Kashmiris by indian troops.



People also can say that about you as well. Terrorist killed and raped most of the Kashmiris and IA is there to protect the Kashmir. 





> Also Kashmir, the land, is a disputed territory between Pakistan and india. This is also a fact.


You can talk about Kashmir here and there every time but the situation will never change. the more you talk and pay attention about Kashmir the more you loose.


----------



## MdArif

Omar1984 said:


> Kashmiri freedom and brotherhood is very important to Pakistanis. Pakistanis strongly condem the murders and rapes of Kashmiris by indian troops.
> 
> Also Kashmir, the land, is a disputed territory between Pakistan and india. This is also a fact.



Yes of course but independence is not an option for them right?

I really like you. At least you have the guts to call a spade a spade. But that means that all other Pakistanis who cry about 'Independence' for kashmiris are just lying right???

And that automatically makes 'Azad' Kashmir a farce.

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## Omar1984

Anuj-Saxena said:


> @Omar
> 
> U say disputed terri, I say NOT...what now,
> 
> whr do we go from here? Put forward most practical options..



According to the United Nations, Kashmir is a disputed territory betwen Pakistan and india. Line of Control is not International Borders like we have in Lahore and Armistrar.

Your first prime minister of india even admitted this fact, that Kashmir is a disputed territory between Pakistan and india. And he himself promised the people of Kashmir a plebiscite.


Facts are facts. indians should stop living in their delusions.


----------



## Kinetic

Omar1984 said:


> According to the United Nations, Kashmir is a disputed territory betwen Pakistan and india. Line of Control is not International Borders like we have in Lahore and Armistrar.


LoC is not border, everyone know that. India will not accept LoC as border but in future it may have to. 



> Your first prime minister of india even admitted this fact, that Kashmir is a disputed territory between Pakistan and india. And he himself promised the people of Kashmir a plebiscite.



The first PM of India is a Kashmiri himself. 




> Facts are facts. indians should stop living in their delusions.



you have to accept LoC as border. Fact is fact. you should stop living in your delusion and learn the fact that nor US nor China will gonna help you out. LoC as border is the only option.


----------



## KS

Hawkish said:


> Ok; First you have the support of China. That is great, but you need three more key players on your side. - US, UK and EU. It is a difficult process and you can get them on your side if you give them what they want. Forget France, Australia, Germany etc. They will fall in place if the big three are in your net
> 
> Unlike India, all the three are business like; That means you can negotiate with them. I don't think you need a lesson on how to negotiate. You are doing excellent job with us. So give them what they want and you will get what you want. As simple as that. I believe you hold several trump cards - Afgan Victory, Mulla, OBL etc. Use this trump card wisely
> 
> For US:
> 
> Give the victory in Afghan to US. There is nothing that will make us happy as emerging victorious from Afgan. Also give'em laden, Mulla and other top guns in Taliban. Ask for their support in Kashmir. I bet you will have a positive outcome. ISI and Pakistan Army can do this if they have the political will.
> 
> Similar approach to UK and EU. Prove to them that you got rid of safe havens. Trust me they will switch sides.
> 
> India is aspiring to be a super power. They need nuclear Fuel, UN membership and wants to be recognized as a power by all the top 5. We can leverage this to address Kashmir issue
> 
> This is difficult, but possible. You need Political will to implement this tough decisions. But the good news is that majority of Pakistani citizens and the Press will back you in this project
> 
> *Forget Indian noise about Kashmir being integral part etc... We know how to get them by their balls.*
> 
> Are you ready?



I find most of the suggestions downright ridiculous not even worth mentioning...But the bolded part gets the cake.

You cant even control puny Cuba or a Venezuela or for that matter Iran and make them toe your line.

What makes you think you can get us by the *balls* (beware they might be too big to hold)?? .

And the last time US tried to catch us by the balls (1971 - 7 th fleet)..they were caught in the balls by the Soviet Nuke sub and had to scurry for cover.

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## Anuj-Saxena

@Omar

Practical solution bro...I think one up manship is not gonna work in Ind-Pak relations....tell me the most viable option...I don't take idealistic view of any prob..lets face it and sort it out....Practical solution only..


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## Ganges Zephyr

@Hawkish: Obama says "no mediation". Tell him its you who leads America and not him


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## Kinetic

Hawkish said:


> Forget Indian noise about Kashmir being integral part etc... We know how to get them by their balls.
> 
> Are you ready?





You don't have the balls how can you talk about others???? US president made it clear after so much noise from Pakistan to mediate that they will not do that.


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## Avatar

Hawkish said:


> Don't take US support as granted and discount Pakistan. If Pakistan can help US in Afgan, Pakistan will be rewarded.



Hawkish, is your real name Barrack Hussein Obama by any chance ? 

Even if it was, you cannot "gift" something that's not yours. The most you will do is give them more F-16s and maybe a few F-35's along with few billion $$$.

*Don't even look at Kashmir.*


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## Hawkish

Omar

Do you have a plan to get countries backing Pakistan? 

This is key because bigotry India will simply postpone bi-lateral talk. They are not interested as the status-quo suits them

So what is your plan? Statements from Qureshi supporting Kashmir virtually carry no weight with the world leaders and are ignored.



Omar1984 said:


> Pakistani blood is not that cheap. Pakistan already has made too many sacrafices. More Pakistani troops and Pakistani civilians have died in this war OF terror than Americans who brought this war into Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistanis come first. Our people have already made so many sacrafices.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/23296-honoring-our-martyrs.html
> 
> Pakistanis are not willing to lose more troops and more civilians by battling the same people that the world's largest army and 7 other nations' troops can't defeat. That'll be suicide for Pakistan.
> 
> Besides, OBL is not even in Pakistan. If he was, I'm sure Pakistan would hand him over. Because of him Pakistanis are suffering.
> 
> 
> And I doubt you are Kashmiri. Maybe an American who thinks OBL is in Pakistan. Tell CIA to give the exact location of OBL to ISI, and ISI will gladly hand him over to U.S. so this miserable war can be over.


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## Hawkish

As I said earlier, everything on the table is available for negotiation. This includes Kashmir occupied by India.

Remember Kashmir is a 'disputed territory' documented in UN. We are just looking other way now as we are busy elsewhere. When there is a need we will turn our head towards Kashmir which is the cause of many problems in South Asia




Avatar said:


> Hawkish, is your real name Barrack Hussein Obama by any chance ?
> 
> Even if it was, you cannot "gift" something that's not yours. The most you will do is give them more F-16s and maybe a few F-35's along with few billion $$$.
> 
> *Don't even look at Kashmir.*


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## KS

Hawkish said:


> As I said earlier, everything on the table is available for negotiation. *This includes Kashmir occupied by India.*



Kashmir is not available for any negotiation, Mr.American.

At the best what India can do is to agree making LoC as the Permanent border (We will loose P0K which is legally ours,but thats OK).Other than...nothing will happen.



Hawkish said:


> Remember Kashmir is a 'disputed territory' documented in UN. We are just looking other way now as we are busy elsewhere. When there is a need we will turn our head towards Kashmir which is the cause of many problems in South Asia



UN - ah the same impotent organisation that couldnt stop a country from unilaterally invading another sovereign country for oil against the wishes of the majority of the international community.

Sorry It can take hike.

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## Ganges Zephyr

As I said earlier, everything is on the table is available for negotiation. This includes Kashmir occupied by India.

Remember Kashmir is a 'disputed territory' documented in UN. We are just looking other way now as we are busy elsewhere. When there is a need we will turn our head towards Kashmir which is the cause of many problems in South Asia

Your so called "table" is'nt big enough to accommodate the K issue. Pak recognize it as IOK and NOT USA-OK. Hope you can understand the difference. If yes, you are in no position to negotiate and you wont do it, everybody knows, now you don have much to gain from your old ally. Better offer them the N-Deal for whatever you want otherwise you will lose that too as China seems to outsmart you in most of the affairs now-a-days.


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## GUNNER

*Kashmir issue: Can't ignore Pak role, says Omar*

*Srinagar:* Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah has supported one of the interlocutors' remarks about involving Pakistan to resolve the Kashmir dispute.

Omar said this, in fact, is the truth and there's no avoiding it.

*"What is new in this? When Vajpayee visited Pakistan, didn't he discuss Kashmir? Is there not a resolution in Parliament where we want a part of Kashmir back from Pakistan? You include Pakistan in that, and when the interlocutors want to discuss Pakistan, you people have a problem with that. Pakistan has an important role in resolving the Kashmir issue, which cannot be ignored," Omar said*.

The remark by Dilip Padgaonkar had created a controversy and he had come under attack by the BJP.

Read more at: Kashmir issue: Can't ignore Pak role, says Omar


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## Omar1984

Hawkish said:


> Omar
> 
> Do you have a plan to get countries backing Pakistan?
> 
> This is key because bigotry India will simply postpone bi-lateral talk. They are not interested as the status-quo suits them
> 
> So what is your plan? Statements from Qureshi supporting Kashmir virtually carry no weight with the world leaders and are ignored.




Well what you're asking from Pakistan is like shooting oneself in the foot.

First you want Pakistan to battle against very strong groups that the world's superpower is having a tough time defeating that will cause Pakistan to lose thousands of more Pakistani troops, thousands of more Pakistani civilians, cause daily suicide bombings in Pakistani cities, cost Pakistan billions of more rupees, even create more differences and hatred between Pakistani people.

Then after so much sacrafices from Pakistan, you then want Pakistan to make additional sacrafices and give away large parts of Pakistani territory so that an Independent nation of Kashmir can be born.

Why not Pakistan use all 100 nuclear warheads on itself, will that also make you happy?


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## Pride

@Hawkish
I dont write too much now a days on this topic but your post made me to write it again. 
Exactly, The point is what a Kashmiri want neither Indians or Indian backed leaders (Abdullahs) nor Pakistanis nor Pakistani backed leaders (Gilani) or groups(JeM, HUJI etc).

Kashmiris actually want independance and that is true but again what is that freedom lets try to understand.[This all is based on discussion with many Kashmiris and forum discussion POV].

*IaK Kashmiris are suffering* due to-

1) Presence of Army at their doorsteps and AFSPA law which makes some rogue army personnels to use them for their profit.

2) Involvement of Pakistan supported groups like LeT, JeM, HUJI etc sends Terrorists as well as misguide youth which kill many people in valley and then get killed by army. Loss from both side is of Kashmiris.

3) Article 370 and denotion of disputed territory is a big problem which stops private player's to invest money which may be used as job for youth.

4) Religious hardliner groups also makes it difficult for Kashmiris some times to go to other Indian stated and work as well as sell their handicrafts because "India" is a "Hindu" country while Laddakh and jammu region take the advantage of "Secular" India.

*Pak-administered-Kashmir are suffering due to*

1) In the name of soveriginity of Kashmi, they are nothing but stooges of GoP and have to be dependent on Pakistan for everything. This stops any kind of Kashmir intended development while if any Pakistan's profitable business comes (China-Gwadar rail line) then they easily utilize the place but revenue does not go into AJK but goes to Pakistan (similar to Balochistan).

2) G&B is still claimed as Pakistani territory and mostly they claim it Pakistani only for discussion and plebiscite it gets involved.

3) It has disputed status but still the migration from neighbouring state Punjab in different areas are getting migrated and settled hence losing of Kashmiri region based identity.

*Both side Kashmiri are also suffering* because they cant easily go to either side to meet their loved ones and relative.

How this uplifting of Kashmiris can be done??

1) Leave the "Disputed territory" discussion and do a betterment for a normal Kashmiri from both the side. Provide the jobs do the economic development.

2) Demilitarization as well as removal of terrorist groups so they can live up.

3) Provide some special status for Kashmiris on respective countries' like quota in studies for school colleges etc.

4) Provide self dependancy and promote respective Kashmir for its heritage, culture, tourist place etc and stop looking it as a place for pride or side.

5) Once 1 or 2 mature generations face all these study and understand situation then what so ever they want. Let them decide democratically and politilcally.


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## Hawkish

Great points and balanced. I still feel that Kashmiris as a nation of their own can take care better than India or Pakistan.



Pride said:


> @Hawkish
> I dont write too much now a days on this topic but your post made me to write it again.
> Exactly, The point is what a Kashmiri want neither Indians or Indian backed leaders (Abdullahs) nor Pakistanis nor Pakistani backed leaders (Gilani) or groups(JeM, HUJI etc).
> 
> Kashmiris actually want independance and that is true but again what is that freedom lets try to understand.[This all is based on discussion with many Kashmiris and forum discussion POV].
> 
> *IaK Kashmiris are suffering* due to-
> 
> 1) Presence of Army at their doorsteps and AFSPA law which makes some rogue army personnels to use them for their profit.
> 
> 2) Involvement of Pakistan supported groups like LeT, JeM, HUJI etc sends Terrorists as well as misguide youth which kill many people in valley and then get killed by army. Loss from both side is of Kashmiris.
> 
> 3) Article 370 and denotion of disputed territory is a big problem which stops private player's to invest money which may be used as job for youth.
> 
> 4) Religious hardliner groups also makes it difficult for Kashmiris some times to go to other Indian stated and work as well as sell their handicrafts because "India" is a "Hindu" country while Laddakh and jammu region take the advantage of "Secular" India.
> 
> *Pak-administered-Kashmir are suffering due to*
> 
> 1) In the name of soveriginity of Kashmi, they are nothing but stooges of GoP and have to be dependent on Pakistan for everything. This stops any kind of Kashmir intended development while if any Pakistan's profitable business comes (China-Gwadar rail line) then they easily utilize the place but revenue does not go into AJK but goes to Pakistan (similar to Balochistan).
> 
> 2) G&B is still claimed as Pakistani territory and mostly they claim it Pakistani only for discussion and plebiscite it gets involved.
> 
> 3) It has disputed status but still the migration from neighbouring state Punjab in different areas are getting migrated and settled hence losing of Kashmiri region based identity.
> 
> *Both side Kashmiri are also suffering* because they cant easily go to either side to meet their loved ones and relative.
> 
> How this uplifting of Kashmiris can be done??
> 
> 1) Leave the "Disputed territory" discussion and do a betterment for a normal Kashmiri from both the side. Provide the jobs do the economic development.
> 
> 2) Demilitarization as well as removal of terrorist groups so they can live up.
> 
> 3) Provide some special status for Kashmiris on respective countries' like quota in studies for school colleges etc.
> 
> 4) Provide self dependancy and promote respective Kashmir for its heritage, culture, tourist place etc and stop looking it as a place for pride or side.
> 
> 5) Once 1 or 2 mature generations face all these study and understand situation then what so ever they want. Let them decide democratically and politilcally.


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## Hawkish

Omar

keeping your emotions aside, think. What we are asking is not unreasonable. Getting of rid of terrorists is also your own interest. How long are you going let these minority rogues detroy the nation and the majority of smart, hardworking moderate Pakistanis?

Did you read about the the bomb blast in Pakpattan today killing 6?

How long you are going to put with these causalities? Wake up guys. If you don't act now, it will be to late




Omar1984 said:


> Well what you're asking from Pakistan is like shooting oneself in the foot.
> 
> First you want Pakistan to battle against very strong groups that the world's superpower is having a tough time defeating that will cause Pakistan to lose thousands of more Pakistani troops, thousands of more Pakistani civilians, cause daily suicide bombings in Pakistani cities, cost Pakistan billions of more rupees, even create more differences and hatred between Pakistani people.
> 
> Then after so much sacrafices from Pakistan, you then want Pakistan to make additional sacrafices and give away large parts of Pakistani territory so that an Independent nation of Kashmir can be born.
> 
> Why not Pakistan use all 100 nuclear warheads on itself, will that also make you happy?


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## Pride

Hawkish said:


> Great points and balanced. I still feel that Kashmiris as a nation of their own can take care better than India or Pakistan.



Thanks for the appreciation but I dont agree with your point that Kashmir can be better when it is separate nation. Kashmir as a separate country will inherit so many stooges from India and Pakistan that they again will make a mess of it. Then another angle China will come in to picture. 
Apart from foreign relation, Kashmir (lets consider valley+AJK only as G&B will remain with Pak while Laddakh and Jammu will remain with India) will not be a big country area and population wise.

Economically viability is also a big point as tourism will be only big industry there and its economic condtion will not be better that Nepal (other country based on tourism).


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## Omar1984

Hawkish said:


> Omar
> 
> keeping your emotions aside, think. What we are asking is not unreasonable. Getting of rid of terrorists is also your own interest. How long are you going let these minority rogues detroy the nation and the majority of smart, hardworking moderate Pakistanis?
> 
> Did you read about the the bomb blast in Pakpattan today killing 6?
> 
> How long you are going to put with these causalities? Wake up guys. If you don't act now, it will be to late




Truth of the matter is that Pakistan was doing just fine before the US invasion of Afghanistan in 2001 and so was U.S.A.

This war was never in Pakistan's interest and is not in America's interest either.

Afghan Taliban, Haqqani network just want the occupiers out of their country, Afghanistan. TTP were formed after US invasion of Afghanistan. Before US invasion of Afghanistan Pakistan was doing much better economically and there were no suicide bombings.


How popular is this war in America now?


End this war, keep out of the Afghanistan Pakistan region, and lets do what we were doing before 2001.



Too much blood has been spilled because of this war OF terror.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

foxbat said:


> Well. Pakistan jumped the gun and we will now never know.. Would we. ? However, had that invasion by Pakistan army irregulars hadnt happened, Pakistan would have had a much stronger case aganist accession to India if that went down..Not anymore...



Nonsense - had Pakistani forces not taken the territory Pakistan currently administers, India would have gobbled up the entire area as it is trying to do now with IOK.

Look at what India did in the Princely States of Junagadh and Hyderabad after all. In the former case the ruler acceded to Pakistan, yet India continued to support destabilization in the territory and eventually invaded and occupied the State. The same in the case of Hyderabad, where the ruler was leaning towards Pakistan or Independence, but India invaded and occupied the territory before a decision on accession or independence could be made.

Given the above Indian actions, and the apathy of the world towards the Kashmir cause in general, there is nothing to substantiate the POV that a lack of Pakistani military action would have placed the Kashmir cause for self-determination in a stronger position.

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## Pride

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Nonsense - had Pakistani forces not taken the territory Pakistan currently administers, India would have gobbled up the entire area as it is trying to do now with IOK.
> 
> Look at what India did in the Princely States of Junagadh and Hyderabad after all. In the former case the ruler acceded to Pakistan, yet India continued to support destabilization in the territory and eventually invaded and occupied the State. The same in the case of Hyderabad, where the ruler was leaning towards Pakistan or Independence, but India invaded and occupied the territory before a decision on accession or independence could be made.
> 
> Given the above Indian actions, and the apathy of the world towards the Kashmir cause in general, there is nothing to substantiate the POV that a lack of Pakistani military action would have placed the Kashmir cause for self-determination in a stronger position.



AM, We have discussed a lot on this issue earlier but Alas! we still meet again on the same issue. 

I am still waiting for any mail, gazetier or documents which has been send by Kashmiris to newly built Pakistan for merging with them. If you have then please share with us otherwise what so ever Tribal army did on your say was illegal.

Regarding Hyderabad, Junagarh, Kashmir from our side or NWFP (yes I count that), Balochistan (Kalat), If you take a rational approach, then these all are due to flawed dissection of British India. Infact many areas in Punjab and Bengal were also flawed. The point was While Pakistan was denoted as nation for Muslims then there can't be a proper diversion of India. Reason was that, India was full of Hindus and Muslims in many areas including princely states hence diversion of its become many islandic type country (Lesotho around South Africa type).

Second flawed part was to distribute area or selection of princely states based on religion. When all Indian Muslims dont want to migrate how come this logic is valid? If being Muslim only would be a criteria for a state to merge with any of the nation then I believe UP and Bihar would have been Pakistan rather than migrating many people in East and West Pakistan in comparison to Pakistan. If liking of a leader would be a choice then NWFp would be in India due to very good relations between Frontier & Indian Gandhi.

If Princely state sign is a problem then same goes with Kalat as well whose ruler wants to go with Pakistan but rest want an independant contry.

So rather than discussing all states mentioned above, lets focus on Kashmir and leave those points for general public to curse each other.

Then another

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## shekhar

one possible solution for kashmir issue is first of all remove special status for kashmir , kashmir is a part of india as other states but it has special status (ex indians from other state cant purchase land in kashmir as promised to king of kashmir)
once special status is removed then flood the kashmir with hindu majority population i am talking like settle 30 to 35 million hindu population (slow process for next 25 years giving them kashmir domicile ) right to vote in kashmir election we already have 7 laks army in kashmir we can protect non hindu population and goverment should give this offer to hindus like jews in israel that take goverment loan to purchase land in kashmir and if you stay there for 15 years you dont have to repay the loan once that is done in the mean time india should just keep this kashmir issue under paper i mean keep this issue very low profile then after 25 years say somewhere around 2040 go for plebiscite under UN and of-course the migrated hindus will have right to vote in that then follow the result i think it will be in indian fav then make LOC as border 
its a slow process and very complex but very effective and by 2040 india will have very strong voice on world stage as india will be 3rd largest economy in world and plebiscite in our fav , pak will not have any option and we can check mate pak easily then

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## Hawkish

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> lack of Pakistani military action would have placed the Kashmir cause for self-determination in a stronger position.



That is then; What is the situation now? Kasmiris have been abandoned and they have no voice. There is virtually no takers for Kashmir freedom. India has managed to push the LOC solution. 

If at all there was a hope, it was Pakistan's responsibility to muster the support from many countries. They screwed it.

Does Pakistan take responsibility for Kashmir situation today? When I say situation, I don't mean the ground situation at Kashmir. I mean the international support for the Kashmir cause. Don't tell me Quershi raises this issue in UN often. As I said earlier, no one wants to buy it from him


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Pride said:


> AM, We have discussed a lot on this issue earlier but Alas! we still meet again on the same issue.
> 
> I am still waiting for any mail, gazetier or documents which has been send by Kashmiris to newly built Pakistan for merging with them. If you have then please share with us otherwise what so ever Tribal army did on your say was illegal.


What the Maharajah was doing, open discrimination and atrocities against Muslim residents that sparked a local rebellion against the dictator, was criminal. The Tribal invasion was spurred by those events in Kashmir, along with the recognition that a dictator willing to commit such oppression and atrocities against residents on the basis of their religion, would never listen to the 'voice of Muslims' in making the decision on accession.

The reports of the Maharajah's atrocities and oppression of local Muslim residents before and through 1947 have been documented by some Indian authors as well.



> Regarding Hyderabad, Junagarh, Kashmir from our side or NWFP (yes I count that), Balochistan (Kalat), If you take a rational approach, then these all are due to flawed dissection of British India. Infact many areas in Punjab and Bengal were also flawed. The point was While Pakistan was denoted as nation for Muslims then there can't be a proper diversion of India. Reason was that, India was full of Hindus and Muslims in many areas including princely states hence diversion of its become many islandic type country (Lesotho around South Africa type).
> 
> Then another Second flawed part was to distribute area or selection of princely states based on religion. When all Indian Muslims dont want to migrate how come this logic is valid? If being Muslim only would be a criteria for a state to merge with any of the nation then I believe UP and Bihar would have been Pakistan rather than migrating many people in East and West Pakistan in comparison to Pakistan. If liking of a leader would be a choice then NWFp would be in India due to very good relations between Frontier & Indian Gandhi.
> 
> If Princely state sign is a problem then same goes with Kalat as well whose ruler wants to go with Pakistan but rest want an independant contry.
> 
> So rather than discussing all states mentioned above, lets focus on Kashmir and leave those points for general public to curse each other.


The accession of the NWFP was to be determined through plebiscite and an overwhelming majority of the voters (98% I believe) voted in favor of Pakistan. There is nothing to argue there, and you can read more details on the plebiscite in a thread on 'NWFP referendum' in the Military History section.

The Khan of Kalat did in fact accede to Pakistan, as did the rulers of various other States that formed the current province of Baluchistan. The rulers of Jungadh and Hyderabad did not accede to India and the former in fact acceded to Pakistan, so your attempt to contrast Indian invasions and occupations of those two States with NWFP and Baluchistan is invalid.

The point remains that Indian aggression against the States of Jungadh and Hyderabad (the former before the tribal invasion of Kashmir in fact) means India protestations against Pakistani military action in Kashmir and the argument that the Maharajah of Kashmir's accession to India makes it an 'integral part of India' are complete baloney and hypocritical.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*BTW, many posts have been deleted for off topic/trolling and personal attacks (primarily against Hawkish). I would recommend you check to see if your post was one of those deleted, because bans will follow with the next similar infractions.*


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## shekhar

Omar1984 said:


> Pakistan already lost a lot of its territory in 1971, we are not willing to lose an inch more. Besides Azad Kashmir is very important to Pakistan strategically, it connects Pakistan to China. We will never give up that part of Kashmir.
> 
> If only India Occupied Kashmir becomes independent that can also be a problem for Pakistan especially in Azad Kashmir. Also I doubt that neighbouring nuclear powers will let India Occupied Kashmir stay an independent sovereign country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We should let the people of Kashmir decide that in a referendum that was promised to them by the world in 1948.
> 
> 
> 
> According to UN resoultions, theres only 2 choices for Kashmiris, either be part of Pakistan or India. No independent option was passed in the United Nations and Pakistan will never agree on an independent option sorry.
> 
> *If you are a Muslim Kashmiri you should want to be with Muslim majority Pakistan. Notice Hindus want to be India, sad that some Kashmiri Muslims want to divide the Ummah even more than it already is*.



bold part thats not true muslim majority bangladesh separated from pak and if you say that it was because of india then u r wrong germany was divided by two superpowers and after 50 yeras wen they had chance to decide they became one country
india left bangladesh after war but still i dont c bangladesh as part of pakistan i believe they really wanted to separate from pak 
it was an example to prove your bold part wrong 
personally i believe that kashmiri have right to decide and if you talf about freedom they why only two option , choices should be india pakistan or separate country and i m 100% sure it will be separate country but being indian we will never allow that 
as per my understanding GOI is will just lingering the process till become very strong player on world map i believe 2030 - 2035 india will be 3rd largest economy no country will dare to loose such a big trade partner and by that time petroleum will be about to finish from world so islamic countries will loose there importance (anyways today with petroleum all OPEC countries enjoying there money they are least bothered about any other muslim country in world example Palestine ) 
this is also a very good approach by GOI then we can mount huge international pressure on pak to accept LOC as internation border and about kashmiri freedom fighter they will die slowly with india growing economically (example china looks like no one in china is bothered about democracy beacuse they are busy in making money )


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## shekhar

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> What the Maharajah was doing, open discrimination and atrocities against Muslim residents that sparked a local rebellion against the dictator, was criminal. The Tribal invasion was spurred by those events in Kashmir, along with the recognition that a dictator willing to commit such oppression and atrocities against residents on the basis of their religion, would never listen to the 'voice of Muslims' in making the decision on accession.
> 
> The reports of the Maharajah's atrocities and oppression of local Muslim residents before and through 1947 have been documented by some Indian authors as well.
> 
> 
> The accession of the NWFP was to be determined through plebiscite and an overwhelming majority of the voters (98% I believe) voted in favor of Pakistan. There is nothing to argue there, and you can read more details on the plebiscite in a thread on 'NWFP referendum' in the Military History section.
> 
> The Khan of Kalat did in fact accede to Pakistan, as did the rulers of various other States that formed the current province of Baluchistan. The rulers of Jungadh and Hyderabad did not accede to India and the former in fact acceded to Pakistan, so your attempt to contrast Indian invasions and occupations of those two States with NWFP and Baluchistan is invalid.
> 
> The point remains that Indian aggression against the States of Jungadh and Hyderabad (the former before the tribal invasion of Kashmir in fact) means India protestations against Pakistani military action in Kashmir and the argument that the Maharajah of Kashmir's accession to India makes it an 'integral part of India' are complete baloney and hypocritical.


i agree with you if kings decision matters then hyderabad and junagarh should be part of pak and kashmir part of india and if public opinion matters the these two should be part of india and kashmir goes to pak but india being a bigger country took advantage of oppurtunity (any country will do that) point is what happened in past leave it in past think what can be done to make future better i am sure that if GOI is doing anything in Baluchistan it will stop it the moment pak stops supporting terrorism in india accept LOC as internatinal border you have 1/3d of kashmir be happy with that if india is ready to accept LOC as border then why pak shouldnt do it
once kashmir issue is resolved we can move to other issues 
pak claims that water flos from india to pak so india has advantage to check india in water front pak can let flow gas and petroleum from pak to india thus there will be a deadlock india wont be able to check pak and pak wont be able to check india and plus pak will get millions in rent only without investing a penny 
similarly we can start trading in multiple fields i know that more that 80% pak population will not support terrorism in india its only 10 to 15 % but its in our country also 
to be very frank and no offence but all pakistani rulers they lacked farsightedness while in india i c situation bit better compared to pak
if a man feels insecure he will get a dog for security not lion , because one day lion will kill him , india opted for dog for its security (indian military) pak opted lion (pak army) and ultimately your lion ate your country  why am i bringing this in kashmir discussion is that any democratic country will fav democratic country over military rule when they have to decide about kashmir and this point pak lost the battle big time


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Nonsense - had Pakistani forces not taken the territory Pakistan currently administers, India would have gobbled up the entire area as it is trying to do now with IOK.



Though I believe this logic is pure Conjecture on your part, but even in this situation, the case for a plebiscite would have been much stronger without the dispute of Pakistan having not fulfilled its plebiscite obligations.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Look at what India did in the Princely States of Junagadh and Hyderabad after all. In the former case the ruler acceded to Pakistan, yet India continued to support destabilization in the territory and eventually invaded and occupied the State. The same in the case of Hyderabad, where the ruler was leaning towards Pakistan or Independence, but India invaded and occupied the territory before a decision on accession or independence could be made.


Arguement point aside, both you and I know that geographical realities in the 2 areas you mention were very different from the state of Kashmir and hence the 3 are not comparable. Or else why doesnt a Kashmir like situation exist there today.




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Given the above Indian actions, and the apathy of the world towards the Kashmir cause in general, there is nothing to substantiate the POV that a lack of Pakistani military action would have placed the Kashmir cause for self-determination in a stronger position.



Certainly it would have, if nothing else, more than now, because in that case the whole world and even India would know that Pakistan did not invade first. Right now, legalities of accession support India's POV. In the case Pakistan did not attack the state of Kashmir illegally, leading to maharaja signing the accession document, India would not have had any legal standing on the matter. 

And even today, the indegenous Kashmiri movement (if one exists) is so damn diluted by the vested interest of Pakistani land grab, that its invisible to the world.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Omar supports interlocutors; says Pak cannot be ignored​*





Reiterating his support to the Centre appointed interlocutors, Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah said Pakistan has a role in bringing peace to the Valley.

*Supporting Centre-appointed interlocutors for their comments on involving Pakistan, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah on Monday said the neighbouring country has a role in Jammu and Kashmir which cannot be ignored.*

&#8220;Nothing what the interlocutors had said with regard to Pakistan&#8217;s role in Jammu and Kashmir is wrong. After Shimla Agreement whenever talks were held with Pakistan, Kashmir has figured in it,&#8221; he told reporters here.

Parliament had passed a resolution in 1995 calling for withdrawal of Pakistani troops from ***, Mr. Omar said on the sidelines of a function here.

&#8220;Rightly or wrongly, is it not making Pakistan a party? Pakistan has a role in Jammu and Kashmir. How can you ignore it?&#8221; asked the Chief Minister.

Reacting to BJP criticism of Dileep Padgaonkar, head of the interlocutors&#8217; team, for his comments, Mr. Omar said it was their habit to create an issue by listening to half the story.

&#8220;(Then Prime Minister Atal Bihari) Vajpayee went to Lahore and spoke about resolution of Kashmir,&#8221; he said.

On Sunday, the BJP slammed Mr. Padgaonkar for his comments on involving Pakistan in resolution of the Kashmir issue and demanded the PMO to clarify if this was part of the brief of the team.

Mr. Padgaonkar had stuck to his remarks saying what he had said about Pakistan was &#8220;obvious&#8221; and there was nothing new.

The Hindu : News / National : Omar supports interlocutors; says Pak cannot be ignored


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## MYSTIC

sensenreason said:


> Manufacturing requires the following:
> 
> Technology
> Capital (meaning Money)
> Land
> People
> 
> India has a problem of not having good labour which is disciplined and hard working.....The managers are fine but the workers are not. This impacts productivity and costs
> 
> India lags ability to produce 'low' to medium tech products as they are labour intensive and as in earliar point..its a problem
> 
> Land is the MOST DIFFICULT resource to acquire for manufacturing unless you have deep pockets, patience and connections to evict people if required.
> 
> Capital is nowadays least of the worries...but if you were an entrepreneur try raising the capital for a middle sized manufacturing outfit...
> 
> Now to performance..India exports about USD 200 Billion worth of goods and China about USD 1300 Billion...where's the comparison? I dont see any. Lets compare to South Korea. Thats more apt.
> 
> GOI tried to build SEZs for each vertical and thats failed as they have become land grabbing and money laundering tools.The only manufacturing thats worked is pure private enterprise dependent on foreign tech(atleast initially) and Indian managerial workers...eg Auto.



As far as land is concerned, it should be understood that 2/3 of China is mountainous and largely uninhabited. Most of the population and industries are found in the remaining 1/3 of the country. This makes it roughly the size of India. Owing to larger population than ours land is a graver issue in China than in India.

Regarding the managers, the best brains go to the service sector. No one wants to work in industries outside the city. Therefore, in most cases you have to use managers from smaller towns with decent bit of education. Semi-skilled and unskilled labor are found in plenty (in Gujrat and Maharashtra a lot of them come from UP and Bihar).

Capital will be problem if you do not have a bright idea. If you have a great idea and even better connections, you can raise plenty of money from the market.

There are two reasons why Chinese are better in foreign trade
1) Indian manufacturers greed
2) Chinese government export promotion

Even I was hoping for the SEZ's to work but sadly it just became a pipe dream in most states.


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## Avatar

Hawkish, I'm still awaiting your expert opinion on Aksai Chin.


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## ChinaRocks

sensenreason said:


> You mean you would be worried if India were to ban these companies in reality. Good to know.



Remember the chinese telecom fiasco?india crying like little baby and the end result ? business as usual for huawei...lol
cheers to all my indian friends


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## Patriot

Crying appears to be a favorite pass time hobby of India.So much for peaceful country.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Is our Govt using P.O.K as an excuse to keep Chinese companies out?

I remember reading an article in ET about how Dong Feng electronics is gobbling up traditional BHEL market and customers.


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## ChinaRocks

pmukherjee said:


> Exactly why and how does India need China? The balance of trade between the two is heavily skewed in China's favor anyway which implies that India buys more Chinese products than vice versa. We are aware that the bulk of Chinese imports are cheap and unreliable low tech stuff. Therefore, a selective ban on non essential Chinese imports will definitely not hurt us, it may instead bring relief to many small scale industries feeling the pinch due to Chinese competition.
> 
> Regarding, China being made to take into account Indian sensibilities, by all means. How can they do business with us in India while hurting our interests elsewhere? No country can do that and expect to get away.



Gosh you think for a mere $50 billion trade china gonna listening to u india?Believe me if it gonna hurt china you indians would have done it long time no go

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## oct605032048

jade1982 said:


> Yes we need Chinese Investment...but more than that... China needs markets for its economic well being and growth. Markets such as India are few...there are many countries that can fill the shoes of China in investment in India; however the reverse is not true



Markets such as India are few?

Come back to earth man. Even small state such as Skorea got almost the same size of economy compare to that of india. Economic tit for tat is a lose-lose strategy, so China will not start it, But how can China be intimidated by such tricks of india while they are playing the game that even Japan is not qualified to take part in.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

RollingStones said:


> We want to know if it is acceptable to vaporize them instantly or should we accord them the privilege of appearing before a court system et al



well being an American, don't you apply an ''innocent until proven guilty'' approach and framework?

or are the rules changing? 




> Perhaps, the governments should make a PR argument by simply vaporizing these groups, so it sends a strong message to wannabes and future trouble makers? Or maybe the governments should work together and setup a global fund to eliminate terrorism wherever it and whatever guise it is? ]



you'd be naive to think that the threat of terrorism can be wished away, or that, despite measures being taken, it will vanish overnight

by the way, those Mexican drug cartels you've got along the border --those are your biggest internal security threat; not some Kashmiri 'outfit' that never even attacked your country or its citizens

i heard about what's happening in Arizona!


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## StingRoy

oct605032048 said:


> Markets such as India are few?
> 
> Come back to earth man. Even small state such as Skorea got almost the same size of economy compare to that of india. Economic tit for tat is a lose-lose strategy, so China will not start it, But how can China be intimidated by such tricks of india while they are playing the game that even Japan is not qualified to take part in.



It is not just the size of the economy, it is the amount of money that is being invested in infrastructure projects. Developed nations have already well established infrastructure and hence their spending amounts will be lesser compared to developing economies. This is not about intimidation, it is about playing by the rules set by India.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

oct605032048 said:


> Markets such as India are few?
> 
> Come back to earth man. Even small state such as Skorea got almost the same size of economy compare to that of India. Economic tit for tat is a lose-lose strategy, so China will not start it, But how can China be intimidated by such tricks of India while they are playing the game that *even Japan is not qualified to take part in*.



You mean Japanese firms are involved in construction projects in the disputed region?


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## Omar1984

The only reason why india is doing this is because india doesn't want to see any kind of development inside Pakistan with Chinese help.

India is even worried about Chinese help in Gwadar, Balochistan province of Pakistan.

Pakistan&#8217;s Gwadar Port worries Indian Navy


india knows it can not ever have Azad Kashmir. The Muslim population in Azad Kashmir is 100&#37; and they are very anti-india, more anti-india than the people in India Occupied Kashmir Valley.

indian orange media were even dreaming of scenarios to attack "training camps" in Azad Kashmir after mumbai attacks.

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## prototype

so Huawei is back on the list,that was little hard on the,just few months back they escaped from the Indian blacklist,agreeing on some condition's that was to hard on them(from Chinese prospective)

anyway good decision from Indian govt,a tit for tat is welcome given Indian companies r not present big time In China currently

And meanwhile i witnessed a post about Indian supporting for Tibet cause,then it means the poster is unaware that India accepts Tibet as an official territory of china

Also an another post,which say that S.Korean economy is as big as India,i want to say,correct ur stats,Korean economy is not even $ 1 billion strong

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## Omar1984

hoax said:


> Dude your country is just a pawn ... It was for Americans during cold war .. now Chinese are playing with you against India...
> 
> 
> 
> Remember how Americans used to be your No. 1 ally??



Unlike America, China shares too much mutual interests with Pakistan.

india should be worried.

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## prototype

Omar1984 said:


> T*he only reason why india is doing this is because india doesn't want to see any kind of development inside Pakistan with Chinese help.*
> 
> India is even worried about Chinese help in Gwadar, Balochistan province of Pakistan.
> 
> 
> india knows it can not ever have Azad Kashmir. The Muslim population in Azad Kashmir is 100% and they are very anti-india, more anti-india than the people in India Occupied Kashmir Valley.
> 
> indian orange media were even dreaming of scenarios to attack "training camps" in Azad Kashmir after mumbai attacks.



no that not the reason,the reason is Chinese hypocrisy,Indian Kashmir is disputed for them,but not Pakistani Kashmir
,so no one then should complain about it,its our policy,if China have no problem with it they r free to continue their business in Pakistani Kashmir,we have no problem with that

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## StingRoy

Omar1984 said:


> The only reason why india is doing this is because india doesn't want to see any kind of development inside Pakistan with Chinese help.


I can say the same on the Afghanistan issue then isn't it? Why is Pakistan opposed to Indian help in Afghanistan? Can I say that Pakistan does not want the Afghanis to have access to development?

The main reason India is worried about the Chinese in P0K is because it is a disputed territory. Does India have any foreign companies operating inside Indian Kashmir?


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## Abhishek_

ChinaRocks said:


> Remember the chinese telecom fiasco?india crying like little baby and the end result ? business as usual for huawei...lol
> cheers to all my indian friends



The end result my dear was Huawei setting up a plant in India. That should tell you the market potential Chinese companies see in the Indian market

China's Huawei To Set Up Manufacturing Plant In India - ChinaTechNews.com - The Technology Source for the Latest Chinese News on Internet, Computers, Digital, Science, Electronics, Law, Security, Software, Web 2.0, Telecom, and Wireless Industries

On topic: GOI is only considering this move yet, it has not gone in to effect. Why are we getting worked up unnecessarily. calm down people


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## SandsofTime

Restricting free trade will only hurt India. Now that there is one less competitor for the projects so inefficiency will increase and corruption will arise. Remember the amount of corruption done in CWG. Indian firms are going to charge the GOI an arm and a leg in the future seeing no competition from Chinese firms. As for Chinese corporations, the world is a big place. Africa is in need of large scale projects, they'll just move there. In the end India will be looser. Don't take it as an offense but thats how free markets work and when you put artificial restrictions on it there will be losses.


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## ChinaRocks

dezi said:


> I can say the same on the Afghanistan issue then isn't it? Why is Pakistan opposed to Indian help in Afghanistan? Can I say that Pakistan does not want the Afghanis to have access to development?
> 
> The main reason India is worried about the Chinese in P0K is because it is a disputed territory. Does India have any foreign companies operating inside Indian Kashmir?



The reason is very simple india just dont have friend that s willing to risk all to help you out in iok

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## StingRoy

ChinaRocks said:


> The reason is very simple india just dont have friend that s willing to risk all to help you out in iok


Maybe India can and has the monetary power to do things on its own unlike your buddy out there. Did you ever think from that angle?

It will just take a little longer thats it. How do you think we have been building our infrastructure till now?


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## StingRoy

SandsofTime said:


> Restricting free trade will only hurt India. Now that there is one less competitor for the projects so inefficiency will increase and corruption will arise. Remember the amount of corruption done in CWG. Indian firms are going to charge the GOI an arm and a leg in the future seeing no competition from Chinese firms. As for Chinese corporations, the world is a big place. Africa is in need of large scale projects, they'll just move there. In the end India will be looser. Don't take it as an offense but thats how free markets work and when you put artificial restrictions on it there will be losses.



Oh sure, if they can they are free to walk away from the billions of dollars worth of projects in India... do you think Chinese are that foolish? It is business my man... money talks. On your argument on free trade, India does allow free trading on a lot of other projects which are not controversial. It is only with the companies who are involved in the P0K area that India is objecting. I am sure there are numerous other companies who are more than willing to grab the contracts.


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## Bangalorean

dezi said:


> Maybe India can and has the monetary power to do things on its own unlike your buddy out there. Did you ever think from that angle?
> 
> It will just take a little longer thats it. How do you think we have been building our infrastructure till now?



LOL, yes. And the Pakistani poster even thanked ChinaRocks for his statement! Actually its such an insult, if you come to think of it.


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## prototype

ChinaRocks said:


> Remember the chinese telecom fiasco?india crying like little baby and the end result ? business as usual for huawei...lol
> cheers to all my indian friends



I think u r unaware of thr full story,may b ur state controled media did not published thr entire story

Huawei reluctantly and unwillingly have to accept India's terms and condition's,had to open up a plant here and share their codes with Indian govt,so it was huawei that cried like a baby not Indian govt

this is for the same reason i consider by putting them on blacklist after all this,it will b little hard on them

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## SandsofTime

dezi said:


> Oh sure, if they can they are free to walk away from the billions of dollars worth of projects in India... do you think Chinese are that foolish? It is business my man... money talks.



You are overestimating your leverage here. There are many billions of dollars worth of projects in many parts of the world with less competition than in Indian market. These affected firms may simply choose to do business there. Also, many Chinese firms are state owned so to them its not merely business but a political angle as well. We'll see how far this goes. Many Chinese and Russian firms are doing business with Iran despite severe sanctions and at the risk of attracting western anger who also happen to be largest Chinese market. And here you think that some unilateral sanction by India is going to have a major impact?

In the end, I think India will only make a fool of itself by these gimmicks. Best stop it now and avoid failed policies.

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## Abhishek_

SandsofTime said:


> You are overestimating your leverage here. There are many billions of dollars worth of projects in many parts of the world with less competition than in Indian market. These affected firms may simply choose to do business there. Also, many Chinese firms are state owned so to them its not merely business but a political angle as well. We'll see how far this goes. Many Chinese and Russian firms are doing business with Iran despite severe sanctions and at the risk of attracting western anger who also happen to be largest Chinese market. And here you think that some unilateral sanction by India is going to have a major impact?
> 
> In the end, I think India will only make a fool of itself by these gimmicks. Best stop it now and avoid failed policies.



sands I agree with you wholeheartedly except the last two lines. These policies are only being considered at this point, it's a bit immature to call them failed without even trying them out


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## SandsofTime

Abhishek_ said:


> sands I agree with you wholeheartedly except the last two lines. These policies are only being considered at this point, it's a bit immature to call them failed without even trying them out



I didn't realize that's its only under consideration. Anyway, hope you guys see the light. Free markets and globalization is the best path to future prosperity. Sure, you can try protectionist policies but in the end they always backfire.


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## StingRoy

SandsofTime said:


> You are overestimating your leverage here. There are many billions of dollars worth of projects in many parts of the world with less competition than in Indian market. These affected firms may simply choose to do business there.


Lets move from billions of dollars to say $1 Trillion in the next 5 years. How does that sound?
India needs $1 trillion infrastructure spending over 5 yrs: PM - Economy and Politics - livemint.com



> Also, many Chinese firms are state owned so to them its not merely business but a political angle as well. We'll see how far this goes. Many Chinese and Russian firms are doing business with Iran despite severe sanctions and at the risk of attracting western anger who also happen to be largest Chinese market. And here you think that some unilateral sanction by India is going to have a major impact?


This is the prime point of discontent with India that most of the firms are State owned and India is not happy with Chinese govt presence in a disputed territory. At the end of the day everyone want to make money, so I don't see why these companies will not strike a compromise with the Indian govt if the rule is indeed enforced.



> In the end, I think India will only make a fool of itself by these gimmicks. Best stop it now and avoid failed policies.


As I said before, there is no question of making a fool of anyone here... It is a matter of principals and political strategy. We are not asking for Chinese aid, these will be pure investment projects and mutually beneficial for both the countries.


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## Awesome

India won't do anything and will end up looking like a fool in the end. India is not ready to cut off ties with China's biggest firms - essentially cut off trade with China.

China on the other hand has been the driving force behind all these projects. There is the much talked about Defence - aspect along with the fuel supply, train link and expansion of KkH.

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## Water Car Engineer

PakSher said:


> Yes, according to Indian stance *** is part of India. But according to the 2 pending resolutions in the UN on Kashmir and 3 resolutions at the OIC, Kashmir is part of Pakistan and the Kashmiri people have a right of self determination.



Doesnt matter. They know who has control.


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## Hafizzz

PakSher said:


> Good luck. Chinese-Pakistan strategic relations cannot be harmed with this BS idea.



You got that right, bro !!!


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## ChinaRocks

prototype said:


> I think u r unaware of thr full story,may b ur state controled media did not published thr entire story
> 
> Huawei reluctantly and unwillingly have to accept India's terms and condition's,had to open up a plant here and share their codes with Indian govt,so it was huawei that cried like a baby not Indian govt
> 
> this is for the same reason i consider by putting them on blacklist after all this,it will b little hard on them



As far as Huawei is concerned india is just another destination for the company to expand, with or without india Huwei is doing very well thank you very much. Now go figure this out , why Huwei need to show you their codes where as it can easily bribing yr corrupt politicians to get back into india?


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## Awesome

I would like to see this happen in fact. If India does this it will be seen as a highly belligerent move in Beijing and would cement its relationship with Pakistan.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Xeric is a respected member on the forum; i dont know where this talk of criminal background came into place. But such claims can be rubbished.

and i am aware about US zero tolerance towards terrorism. But it seems that you are adopting an ''enemy of enemy is friend'' approach

i would say that the attack by Jundollah on Iranian revolutionary guards was terrorism too, wouldnt you agree? I hate to promote off-topic discussion, but would you not agree?

it is already evident that a guilty until proven innocent approach is being adopted, terrorism is affecting the way you are running your affairs and abiding by Constitutional enactments......there are even American nationals with bounties on their heads ''dead or alive'' (which is a presumption of guilt)


as for Kashmiri freedom fighters; i don't think a decrease in ''terrorism'' can be attributed to anything the americans are doing. Violence has waned maybe because Kashmiri Muslims feel representation from groups like APHC and the like; perhaps they have some small glimmer of hope that the world will take notice of their plight without the need for violence. Not sure how long that will last, as long as world continues to keep a blind eye to the conflict.

in the end of course, Kashmiris' main ally is themselves; Pakistan Nation would always stand side by side with them, as we hope to see a fair and fitting resolution to the problem --one that fits Kashmiris.

i'm sure if russians were an aspiring stake-holder in Kashmir, you'd take a lot more interest in it 

whatever suits you best sir!


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## LaBong

Asim Aquil said:


> I would like to see this happen in fact. If India does this it will be seen as a highly belligerent move in Beijing and would cement its relationship with Pakistan.



Like Pak-China relation isn't already cemented enough! 

India should do whatever best for her, relation between two different sovereign states should never be considered while making country's foreign policy.


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## Abhishek_

All this is diplomatic sabre-rattling Asim (I'm sure you know this too), the leadership of both nations is quite pragmatic and I'm certain they will find a middle ground that both can agree on. 
India and China are heavily focused on economic development, and when it comes to such petty issues they have been able to amicably resolve it in the past.


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## Xeric

Abu, let the dude RIP.
Chill


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## Abu Zolfiqar

i didn't realize the PDF authorities had already stamped his Visa for all expenses paid trip to AF-BAN-istan! 


*&#1575;&#1606;&#1617;&#1575; &#1604;&#1604;&#1729; &#1608; &#1575;&#1606;&#1617;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1740;&#1607; &#1585;&#1575;&#1580;&#1593;&#1608;&#1606;*

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## shekhar

Hawkish said:


> As I said earlier, everything on the table is available for negotiation. This includes Kashmir occupied by India.
> 
> Remember Kashmir is a 'disputed territory' documented in UN. We are just looking other way now as we are busy elsewhere. When there is a need we will turn our head towards Kashmir which is the cause of many problems in South Asia



if USA supports pak on kashmir issue
so who will be your next partner against china russia japan europe if not india because if USA support pak on kashmir then sure india will be standing against USA

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## Irfan Baloch

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i didn't realize the PDF authorities had already stamped his Visa for all expenses paid trip to AF-BAN-istan!
> 
> 
> *&#1575;&#1606;&#1617;&#1575; &#1604;&#1604;&#1729; &#1608; &#1575;&#1606;&#1617;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1740;&#1607; &#1585;&#1575;&#1580;&#1593;&#1608;&#1606;*



absolute class comment

cheers

long live the freedom struggle

long live the resolve of the Kashmiris
down with the indian occupation of Kashmir

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## Hawkish

Avatar said:


> Hawkish, I'm still awaiting your expert opinion on Aksai Chin.



What exactly you need on Aksai Chin?


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## Jackdaws

Hawkish said:


> What exactly you need on Aksai Chin?



Virgin ski slopes.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Kashmiri Youngsters Wage Online Struggle​*


> SRINAGAR (IPS) - Rasik Rasheeds (not his real name) hefty Internet bills hardly bother his family. Cooped up at home due to curfews and strikes here for over three months now, youngsters like him have been busy not just with their studies but with waging what they call the Kashmir struggle on the Internet.
> 
> They spend hours uploading and watching videos on YouTube that depict life and the situation under the Indian governments security regime, and sharing their views and slogans on social networking sites like Facebook.
> 
> *"I want to contribute to the freedom struggle in my own humble way. How does it matter if I dont go out and engage Indian security forces in the streets?" he said in an interview with IPS. "I cause them more damage by these videos which depict how ruthlessly they treat Kashmir." *
> 
> *As for his parents who pay for his Internet fees, "they are happy that I am contributing to the freedom struggle in a different way", he explained. *
> 
> The Internets reach is pushing young people like Rasik to vary the styles of their resistance against Indian rule in Kashmir.
> 
> From an armed rebellion in 1989, the opposition to Indias rule in this restive state is morphing into an *ammunition-free struggle*, one where youth make use of both traditional and more sophisticated, technology-friendly methods of protest such as Facebook, YouTube and Twitter.
> 
> In the online world, many operate under names like Dodmut Kashur (which means Scalded Kashmiri), Aam Nafar (Common Man), Bleeding Paradise, Quit Kashmir, and Exiled Stranger. "Independence Day! Not for us," read one of the posts on Facebook on Indias Independence Day on Aug. 15.
> 
> "It (Internet) is emerging as an alternative media in Kashmir because these youth most often upload videos which depict the suffering of the people, which at times is ignored by the mainstream media, wittingly or unwittingly," said Sheikh Showkat, who teaches human rights in Kashmir University.
> 
> Broadband Internet services were allowed in Kashmir in 2005. "Within no time, these techno-savvy youth figured out how its use can outstrip the traditional media," Showkat added.
> 
> "I think it does help in how people visualise and relate to the information they get about Kashmir," said Angana Chatterji, a U.S.-based anthropologist who advocates independence for Kashmir at international forums. "I show these videos to participants at international forums, telling them this is what I have seen in Kashmir. It encourages debate and enables discussion."
> 
> Rasik said, "The web teaches you how it can override barriers. The authorities may do gatekeeping to mainstream media, but not here. Such is the power of the web which we are seeking to use effectively."
> 
> Kashmirs troubles date back to 1947, when Britain granted India independence and the Muslim-dominated areas became part of Pakistan. A U.N. resolution, meantime, gave Kashmiris the option to join either Hindu-dominated India or Pakistan or to become independent. But Kashmiris had no chance to make a choice as their homeland is claimed by both India and Pakistan.
> 
> Roughly a third of modern-day Kashmir is administered by Pakistan while the rest is under India. But it is an arrangement that has not been accepted by many Kashmiris, and some youths living on the Indian side rose up in arms in 1989 in an insurgency that simmers to this day.
> 
> In more recent years, many Kashmiri youth have been using other forms or protest given that the use of violence has been falling out of favour. *In the last two years too, protests here have shifted to street protests and pelting of Indian security officers, rather than the violent acts of earlier years. *
> 
> "Kashmiris have realised the changing dynamics at the global level, with violent means of protest not getting entertained by the global policy institutions. That is why they are fashioning their struggle accordingly," said Prof Gul Mohammad Wani, a political commentator who teaches in Kashmir University.
> 
> While Rasik is content with what he is doing at home, others combine both protests on the streets and in cyberspace. A youth from uptown Srinagar, who requested anonymity, says he juggles graffiti protests, cyber protests and pelting stones at Indian security forces stationed here.
> 
> "I take time for all these activities. The only thing you need is your commitment," he explained. "We want to convey to the world that it is not only the gun which draws attention."
> 
> Thus far, there have been no arrests for using cyberspace for political activity in Kashmir and no video-sharing or social networking website has been blocked. [Edit: now they have been --including Facebook Utility] More than 50,000 Internet connections are said to be working in Kashmir.
> 
> Still, Kashmiris e-protesters say they cannot risks. "These security agencies do not know about respecting intellectual freedom or freedom of expression. They can pick you up any time if they come to know about your involvement in e-protests," said one young person who asked to be called Burhan.
> 
> But rights activists do not hesitate to use their real names. "Seventy-five days, 64 lives, 57 strike calls, 52 curfews, 200 injured, 1,500 arrests, unarmed Kashmiris versus Indian Armed forces," wrote Khurrum Parvez, convenor of the Srinagar-based Coalition of Civil Society on his Facebook page on Aug. 29.




INDIA: Kashmiri Youngsters Wage Online Struggle - IPS ipsnews.net


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## Hawkish

Jackdaws said:


> Virgin ski slopes.



There ain't anyone skiing in India. This area is uninhabitable. What is the use?


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## Jackdaws

Hawkish said:


> There ain't anyone skiing in India. This area is uninhabitable. What is the use?



I am. I go to Auli to ski in Uttranchal. Even snowboard. Will go to Gulmarg someday too - hear it is some of the best powder on the planet. So - can build some more ski resorts in Aksai Chin.


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## Trichy

My personal thing is that, PAKISTAN want Kashmir People or *Water*???

Any one can answer in single word is enough for me, 

*People or Water*

*Note: IF YOU HAVE GUTS...*


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## muse

It would be better to say that the captive Kashmiri want to be free of India and ideally want to be independent but failing that, they want to be with Pakistan - recall Bhoka nanga Hindustan, Jan se Pyraya, Pakistan - now that is not a Pakistani slogan, that is slogan the captive kashmiri use.


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## Hawkish

Fair enough. Here is my take

This area is grabbed by Chinese, right? If you try to kick Chinese as* they are ruthless and they will likely toast your as* and serve as roast beef. Neither the Gandhian country has the political will to wage a war; You are no Americans to do. So rule out military action.

Diplomacy is difficult at this moment as there are enough boundary conflicts already in the world, so no one would like to support a new conflict. Plus you want a UN seat, better to keep the conflicts low. 

I assume Indians are not good Jihadi strategy, so ruling out. (Looking at the history, the miserable job you guys are doing in Tibet- may be you could take a leaf from Taliban's/ISI book).

So the only way left is negotiations and and the lesson 101 on negotiations: I took negotiation as a minor in by business school and the first thing they teach you is: 

If you want something, you have got to offer something that the other party wants. Better option is to offer something that the other party is disparate about. So what can you offer to China, that china disparately wants?

Anything that rings the bell?




Jackdaws said:


> I am. I go to Auli to ski in Uttranchal. Even snowboard. Will go to Gulmarg someday too - hear it is some of the best powder on the planet. So - can build some more ski resorts in Aksai Chin.


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## Hawkish

Your relations are so bitter, either party would prefer independent solution rather than giving their piece it to the other, assuming there are only two options



muse said:


> It would be better to say that the captive Kashmiri want to be free of India and ideally want to be independent but failing that, they want to be with Pakistan - recall Bhoka nanga Hindustan, Jan se Pyraya, Pakistan - now that is not a Pakistani slogan, that is slogan the captive kashmiri use.


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## Jackdaws

Hawkish said:


> Fair enough. Here is my take
> 
> This area is grabbed by Chinese, right? If you try to kick Chinese as* they are ruthless and they will likely toast your as* and serve as roast beef. Neither the Gandhian country has the political will to wage a war; You are no Americans to do. So rule out military action.
> 
> Diplomacy is difficult at this moment as there are enough boundary conflicts already in the world, so no one would like to support a new conflict. Plus you want a UN seat, better to keep the conflicts low.
> 
> I assume Indians are not good Jihadi strategy, so ruling out. (Looking at the history, the miserable job you guys are doing in Tibet- may be you could take a leaf from Taliban's/ISI book).
> 
> So the only way left is negotiations and and the lesson 101 on negotiations: I took negotiation as a minor in by business school and the first thing they teach you is:
> 
> If you want something, you have got to offer something that the other party wants. Better option is to offer something that the other party is disparate about. So what can you offer China, that china is disparately wants?
> 
> Anything that rings the bell?



You think the Taliban and ISI are actually doing a good job?


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## Hawkish

Jackdaws said:


> You think the Taliban and ISI are actually doing a good job?



I wouldn't term it as good. Taliban is our enemy. Let me put it this way; China will feel the heat in Tibet if you guys are effective. I would think Tibet has the world support, except India sucking up to China


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## Trichy

Hawkish said:


> I wouldn't term it as good. Taliban is our enemy. Let me put it this way; China will feel the heat in Tibet if you guys are effective. I would think Tibet has the world support, except India sucking up to China



then wat u do? u suckup with china???

its my opinion that fakers always do fake statement...


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## jayron

Hawkish said:


> I wouldn't term it as good. Taliban is our enemy. Let me put it this way; China will feel the heat in Tibet if you guys are effective. I would think Tibet has the world support, except India sucking up to China



Tibetians are no Talibans. Dailai Lama is no Mulla Omar. The sole reason the world has concern for the Tibetains is because they are peaceful people. I think Xinjiang is a more volatile Chinese area then Tibet.

Indians are good at instigating separatist movements in other countries. Mukthi Bahini in BD and LTTE(during its inception) to some extent were supported by Indians. But in this case, there isn't much support for Tibet among common Indians unlike the Bengalis and Tamils in India who supported MB and LTTE respectively. 

Additionally, if India starts supporting insurgency in Tibet, China might support militancy in Indian North East.


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## Hawkish

I am not advocating violence. 

Why did India hastily said Tibet is part of China, when China is claiming Kashmir, and other parts of India and many in the world supports Tibet?

Do India support Tibetan freedom movement? Are Tibetans closer to India culturally than China ? 



jayron said:


> Tibetians are no Talibans. Dailai Lama is no Mulla Omar. The sole reason the world has concern for the Tibetains is because they are peaceful people. I think Xinjiang is a more volatile Chinese area then Tibet.
> 
> Indians are good at instigating separatist movements in other countries. Mukthi Bahini in BD and LTTE(during its inception) to some extent were supported by Indians. But in this case, there isn't much support for Tibet among common Indians unlike the Bengalis and Tamils in India who supported MB and LTTE respectively.
> 
> Additionally, if India starts supporting insurgency in Tibet, China might support militancy in Indian North East.


----------



## S_O_C_O_M

*'Pakistani troops kill Indian soldier in Kashmir'​*(AFP)  15 hours ago

SRINAGAR, India  An Indian soldier was killed when Pakistani troops opened fire across the de facto border dividing Kashmir, the military said Monday, accusing Islamabad of a "major ceasefire violation".

"Pakistani troops opened machine gunfire and even fired rockets towards Indian forward posts in the southern Poonch sector, killing a soldier," army spokesman Biplab Nath told AFP by telephone from state winter capital Jammu.

Indian soldiers did not return fire, the spokesman said, describing the shooting late Sunday as "unprovoked".

"It was a major ceasefire violation by Pakistani troops," Nath said, adding that authorities would take up the incident with their Pakistani counterparts.

India in the past has accused the Pakistani army of providing covering fire for militants seeking to infiltrate Indian-administered Kashmir. Islamabad denies the charge.

India and Pakistan have fought two of their three wars over mainly Muslim Kashmir, held in part by each country but claimed in full by both.

They agreed to a ceasefire along the Line of Control (LOC) in 2003 and launched a peace process in 2004. Since then, there have been sporadic small clashes with both sides accusing the other of violating the LOC ceasefire.

This year India has accused Pakistani troops of shooting dead an Indian border guard and two civilian porters working for the army while Pakistan has accused India of killing two of its soldiers.

India has long accused Pakistan of fomenting a 21-year Islamic insurgency against New Delhi's rule in the region.

Militant violence has declined sharply since the start of the peace process but popular desire for an independent Kashmir remains strong and the state has been roiled by massive anti-India civilian protests.

Pakistan says recent street protests, in which 111 people have died, prove that resentment is local.

AFP: 'Pakistani troops kill Indian soldier in Kashmir'

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## jayron

Hawkish said:


> I am not advocating violence.
> 
> Why did India hastily said Tibet is part of China, when China is claiming Kashmir, and other parts of India and many in the world supports Tibet?
> 
> Do India support Tibetan freedom movement? Are Tibetans closer to India culturally than China ?



Each county acts in its own selfish interest. China accepted India's sovereignty in Sikkim(which was contentious earlier) and India accepted China's Tibet. China has strategic interest in Kashmir and wants to support its ally Pakistan in this issue. Apart from a few instances where the Chinese irritated Indian officials in visa issues, they mostly are not vocal about Kashmir.

Dalai Lama himself does not advocate freedom of Tibet but for more autonomy. So the Indians do not really have a case to raise this issue.

About the culture, Tibet has more Indian influence than Chinese. But again, The Indian culture that influenced Tibetians is no longer followed by Indians themselves, apart from pockets of Buddhist population in Ladakh, Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh . But they do not have much of a political say.


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## Water Car Engineer

> Indian Soldier Killed By Pakistani Troops for Violating LOC Ceasefire



Why not "Pakistani troops kill Indian soldier in Kashmir"

Like the title?


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## StingRoy

Varghese said:


> Why not "Pakistani troops kill Indian soldier in Kashmir"
> 
> Like the title?


I was surprised to see a Pakistani posting this article.

I think SOCOM got excited reading the news and decided to interpret this way in his mind. You see sometimes your mind plays trick on you when you spend so much time on PDF. 

It was yet another valiant soul lost for no fault of his. Salute.

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## wali87

Exchange of fire frequently takes places on the border between Pakistan and India. There are several sectors where Indian troops kill Pakistani and vice versa.. nothing new..

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## FreekiN

This is a weekly thing, I don't see how it's news.

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

^^^^^^^Like the kid said, no news here.
These thing happen regularly & 
by both sides.
Pls stop playing Holier Than Thou and get real.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Kashmiris to observe October 27 as black day: Mirwaiz ​*

Srinagar, October 21 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, the Chairman of All Parties Hurriyet Conference, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has said that the people of Kashmir will observe October 27 as black day as the Indian troops invaded Jammu and Kashmir on the day in 1947.

Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, addressing a party meeting in Srinagar, said that Kashmiris would march towards the United Nations office on the day to draw the attention of the world body towards the gross human rights violations perpetrated by Indian troops in the territory. The people will appeal the UN to impress upon India to give them their right to self-determination as promised in its resolutions, he added. 

He said that a memorandum would also be presented to the US Embassy in New Delhi during the forthcoming visit of the US President, Barack Obama. Mirwaiz asked the US to press India to resolve the Kashmir dispute through meaningful talks with Pakistan and the real Kashmiri leadership. 

The APHC Chairman said the settlement of the longstanding dispute is vital to peace and stability in South Asian region.

Kashmiris to observe Oct ober 27 as black day: Mirwaiz | Kashmir Media Service

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## ajtr

*First time ever, Jammu to celebrate Accession Day​*
Jupinderjit Singh
Tribune News Service

Jammu, October 24
In a renewed fervour of nationalism in Jammu, thanks to the controversial statement made by Chief Minister Omar Abdullah on the states accession to India, residents of Jammu are all set to make a big statement in favour of India on October 26.

For the first time since Independence, the Instrument of Accession anniversary on October 26 when Maharaj Hari Singh decided to accede to India, the city will be decked up for functions to be held by various organisations to assert the state being an integral part of the country.

Earlier, some organisations were holding isolated functions to mark the day or organising debates and conferences. But this time, all major political and social organisations have announced big plans, including illuminating markets, roads and bursting crackers.

Spokespersons of various organisations say as Lal Chowk in Srinagar is often used as a platform against India, the historic Mubarak Mandi Complex, will be the rallying point of celebrations in Jammu.

The Duggar Vikas Manch, with which several organisations like the Brahmin Sabha and others have joined hands, will make a 64-kg ladoo to mark the beginning of the 64th year of the states accession.

Dineshwar Singh Jamwal of the Manch said there would be a childrens walk and hoisting of the National Flag at 8 am in the Mubarak Mandi Complex. The children would walk through the old city carrying placards and posters showing the state being an integral part of India.

In the evening, they would illuminate the complex with 64 large candles.

The Panun Kashmir, one of the organisations of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, had set the ball rolling by announcing that it would distribute sweets and celebrate the day as Diwali. The BJP has already announced the hoisting of the Tricolour at all chowks of Jammu on October 26. On that day, from 5.30 pm to 7.30 pm, there will be a firework display on all chowks and sweets will be distributed.

The Jammu and Kashmir National Panthers Party (JKNPP) has decided to celebrate the day by organising a public meeting in Jammu, where all nationalist and political parties will be invited.

The JKNPP chairman said they had appealed to all political parties, social organisations, NGOs and educational institutions to hold victory rallies with the Tricolour.

The Jammu Kashmir Peoples Forum (JKPF) has appealed to the residents to observe October 26 in a festive mood. It urged the state government to announce a state holiday on the day.

The forum also appealed to the people of the entire country to celebrate the day in a befitting manner to dispel any confusion, whatsoever, regarding the full and final integration of the state to India.


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## Hawkish

Loss of life is sad. Animosity between India and Pakistan is probably worse than north and south Korea. It is ridiculous soldiers on both sides losing their life virtually for no reason. Leadership on both sides have completely failed except blaming each other.


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## DukeOfDefense

> Indian soldiers did not return fire, the spokesman said, describing the shooting late Sunday as "unprovoked".



At least one side's following the ceasefire agreement... 




> Loss of life is sad. Animosity between India and Pakistan is probably worse than north and south Korea. It is ridiculous soldiers on both sides losing their life virtually for no reason. Leadership on both sides have completely failed except blaming each other.



Just like with Korea, unless either Pakistan or India completely invade/dismantle the opposite, then this situation's never going to end. 
Neither side wants to risk anything, so it's a stalemate

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## third eye

FreekiN said:


> This is a weekly thing, I don't see how it's news.



On a mily forum where 90 % discussions are related to Indo- Pak affairs shooting on the LC has to be news.


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## muse

Indian and Pakistani are wasting precious lives - no Indian is doing suicide bombing in Pakistan, No Indian is declaring persons Wajib ul Qatal in Pakistan -- and Indian just got it wrong, you might be bigger, you may not know the kind of punch waiting on you -- you can afford to wait, so wait. Just imagine some poor Jawan, the wife, the kids, the mother, the father, young strong and full of promise, dead, over what? over what?

Really Pakistanis and Indians need to ask themselves some very serious questions -- in the end regardless of punch, what kinds of societies do this kind of thing to each other??

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## Jackdaws

Hawkish said:


> I wouldn't term it as good. Taliban is our enemy. Let me put it this way; China will feel the heat in Tibet if you guys are effective. I would think Tibet has the world support, except India sucking up to China



LOL - Are you insane? India is not rooting for Tibetan independence. The average Indian is not even aware of the Tibet-China issue. And why would we want to break up China? 

Personally, I am against forcing one's views on an entire province. So if China gives Tibet limited autonomy which is what the Dalai Lama wants anyways, then I am fine with it. And I think the same principle should be applied to Kashmir - limited autonomy so people are not disaffected. 

Aksai Chin - we are not THAT desperate to get the ski slopes back. No one is going to war over a frozen piece of tundra.


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## Pride

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> What the Maharajah was doing, open discrimination and atrocities against Muslim residents that sparked a local rebellion against the dictator, was criminal. The Tribal invasion was spurred by those events in Kashmir, along with the recognition that a dictator willing to commit such oppression and atrocities against residents on the basis of their religion, would never listen to the 'voice of Muslims' in making the decision on accession.
> 
> The reports of the Maharajah's atrocities and oppression of local Muslim residents before and through 1947 have been documented by some Indian authors as well.



Well this is again a propaganda theory just to spread the belief that what tribal army did was right while you forgot the truth the same tribal army raped womens and looted money. 
Even if I believe your point even then it was wrong from Pakistan side 
to attack a princely state before plebscite.


> The accession of the NWFP was to be determined through plebiscite and an overwhelming majority of the voters (98% I believe) voted in favor of Pakistan. There is nothing to argue there, and you can read more details on the plebiscite in a thread on 'NWFP referendum' in the Military History section.


I have no problem with NWFP as I know people want to join with Pakistan and I am not unnecessary making it a disputed case. What I want to convey is that when these points of merging, plebiscite and accession were denoted then we can't take only one case and that is either large religious population or leader's choice as claimed here by many folks for many areas but other points need to be taken into that consideration. This was the reason Lahore even being mainly controlled (on monetaory basis not populationwise) by Sikhs, Gurdaspur controlled by Muslims and Chittagong controlled by Hindus have gone opposite.

This is the reason even being Mr Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan wants to go to India their colleagues joined Pakistan. Please make an analogy with the other cases.


> The Khan of Kalat did in fact accede to Pakistan, as did the rulers of various other States that formed the current province of Baluchistan. The rulers of Jungadh and Hyderabad did not accede to India and the former in fact acceded to Pakistan, so your attempt to contrast Indian invasions and occupations of those two States with NWFP and Baluchistan is invalid.


Well this case, I believe is, much more like Kashmir, while many other folks come here and talk about Kashmir as UN recognized disputed state while other is not.
Khan of Kalat acceded when Pakistan Army was on his head and this was the reason his other relatives were against accession of Kalat to Pakistan. This is the case where Pakistan shows that they forcefully acceeded (Which I find OK as that was the case with many Princely states in Dominion) and then a referendum was displayed to the world while they tried the same with Kashmir and Kashmir became bone of contention.


> The point remains that Indian aggression against the States of Jungadh and Hyderabad (the former before the tribal invasion of Kashmir in fact) means India protestations against Pakistani military action in Kashmir and the argument that the Maharajah of Kashmir's accession to India makes it an 'integral part of India' are complete baloney and hypocritical.



I already listed many points which you may say hypocrisy from India's front and I can say for Pakistan but the point is .. what now?
Do we want to go ahead beating the drums of 60 year old relations and accession-secession discussion or do we want to focus on well being of Kashmir and Kashmiris as a heritage of both sides' shared culture. The point to discuss is this and not drama for multi-angle and multi-lateral dispute which happens in Kashmir .


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## Pride

jayron said:


> Each county acts in its own selfish interest. China accepted India's sovereignty in Sikkim(which was contentious earlier) and India accepted China's Tibet. China has strategic interest in Kashmir and wants to support its ally Pakistan in this issue. Apart from a few instances where the Chinese irritated Indian officials in visa issues, they mostly are not vocal about Kashmir.
> 
> Dalai Lama himself does not advocate freedom of Tibet but for more autonomy. So the Indians do not really have a case to raise this issue.
> 
> About the culture, Tibet has more Indian influence than Chinese. But again, The Indian culture that influenced Tibetians is no longer followed by Indians themselves, apart from pockets of Buddhist population in Ladakh, Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh . But they do not have much of a political say.



Request to all folks, I know these are good points to discuss to know other's perspective but can we discuss the main issue raised by Hawkish regarding Kashmir and Kashmiriyat.


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## KS

Hawkish said:


> I assume Indians are not good Jihadi strategy, so ruling out. (Looking at the history, the miserable job you guys are doing in Tibet- may be you could take a leaf from Taliban's/ISI book).



Our Dear Pakistani members will chide you for underestimating RAW's capabilities.

Remember Mukti Bahini ??? And Pakistani members would also like to add BLA andTTP to the list.



Hawkish said:


> So the only way left is negotiations and and the lesson 101 on negotiations: I took negotiation as a minor in by business school and the first thing they teach you is:
> 
> *If you want something, you have got to offer something that the other party wants.* Better option is to offer something that the other party is disparate about. *So what can you offer to China, that china disparately wants?*
> 
> Anything that rings the bell?



So what has Pakistan got to offer us,that we desparately want..? After all Diplomacy is common for all right.

Rings a bell?


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## twoplustwoisfour

Jackdaws said:


> You think the Taliban and ISI are actually doing a good job?



You DON'T think Taliban and ISI are doing a good job? 

They have the US wrapped around their little fingers, getting free weapons and money without any sort of accountability. I consider that as a very good job.


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## HAK

People, there is no such thing as a Kashmir cause.

This BS was invented by the british and the rest of the west *on purpose *to make sure that india and Pakistan remain enemies.

Than they give you weapons and they give us weapons so that we can kill each other and screw our economies in the process.

yes india is growing, but, one war and both of us are screwed, again.

Now, imagin india and Pakistan without 60 years of kashmir BS.


They won, now suck it up!!!

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## Pride

HAK said:


> People, there is no such thing as a Kashmir cause.
> 
> This BS was invented by the british and the rest of the west *on purpose *to make sure that india and Pakistan remain enemies.
> 
> Than they give you weapons and they give us weapons so that we can kill each other and screw our economies in the process.
> 
> yes india is growing, but, one war and both of us are screwed, again.
> 
> Now, imagin india and Pakistan without 60 years of kashmir BS.
> 
> 
> They won, now suck it up!!!



These are very lazy arguments any country give when they analyze their long pending issues. West may have interest here but are we fool enough to live with their such "Bone of contention". Why we could not resolve our issue bilateraly when there were no "West" was involved?

Look at China, Except with India and Korea they could resolve their border issue with talks including their ardent anti Russia and Japan. Why can't we? Why the mess created by west in the world can't be resolved by 2 parties. There were many instances even in Israel-Palestine conflict when they were living peacefully with status quo but then either Hamas jumps up with their activity to get full Palestine liberation or Israeli army will come up in Palestine area. 

Its our home, we need to resolve it and what we need to do is to keep emotion and religion specially aside to resolve this geo-political thing till then dont blame them and focus on reslving this.


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## Irfan Baloch

Pride said:


> Its our home, we need to resolve it and what we need to do is to keep emotion and religion specially aside to resolve this geo-political thing till then dont blame them and focus on reslving this.




I more or less agree with your post my friend
the problem is not Pakistani stand like the title suggests. (I renamed it by the way) India also is very emotional when it comes to Kashmir

the way the boundaries were drawn by the Radcliff and the way the British hurried out of the British India, led to tens of thousands of deaths of the people and a permanent animosity among the two big religions.

I agree that British has played their part. its their built -in nature, they left conflicts in every single place they have ever set their foot upon. but we as mature nations must resolve it on the basis of the will of the people and mutual benefit. we must find a middle ground and not let the extremists on both sides dictate our future. 
The Kashmir cause has suffered a lot at the hands of the Afghan Jihad inspired insurgents. They used the same tactics in Kashmir which vindicated the presence of over a million Indian troops and thus gave them a free pass to punish the Kashmiri population.

What really makes me sad is on many occasions India & Pakistan almost agreed in principle in resolving Kashmir dispute but the fate had other Ideas. The change in governments on both sides stalled the efforts. There is a genuine desire to resolve it amicably that addresses the Kashmiri demands and also safeguards the concerns & sensitivities of both India and Pakistan.

There has to be a middle ground that both nations will have to take. Only a strong, sincere and committed leadership in both countries will enable this resolution. A leadership that wont be pressured by the right wing parties, intelligence agencies and other hawks that have their own interpretation about the conflict and prefer the status-quo the result is that the blood is being spilled on both sides feeding the right wing extremist sentiments.

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## KS

Irfan Baloch said:


> *There has to be a middle ground that both nations will have to take. *Only a strong, sincere and committed leadership in both countries will enable this resolution. A leadership that wont be pressured by the right wing parties, intelligence agencies and other hawks that have their own interpretation about the conflict and prefer the status-quo the result is that the blood is being spilled on both sides feeding the right wing extremist sentiments.



This is exactly the sticking point.

For Indians middle point is accepting LoC as IB, thus loosing P0K (Indian stand)

For Pakistanis there is no middle ground - the only ground is accesion of Valley (not J&K) to Pakistan ,albeit through a circuitous method of asking for the plebiscite.

So even in Middle ground,we are poles apart...God help us.!!

p.s,.: un-biased post.

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## KS

*To the Mods* : please merge the other two threads with this as this is the latest news item after the celebration.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

*Jammu, Oct 26 (IANS)* Several functions were held across this winter capital city of Jammu and other places in the region Tuesday as part of celebrations of the 64th accession day of Jammu and Kashmir with India.

*The Indian tricolour was hoisted in almost all localities and at main crossings in the city.* *Men, women and children came out in strength at all the places and sang the national anthem after unfurling the tricolour. *Sweets were also distributed by participants to celebrate the day.

Many people greeted one another with 'Happy Vilay Divas' or 'Happy Accession Day'.

It was on Oct 26, 1947 that the last Dogra king Maharaja Hari Singh had signed the accession of his princely state with India. *The accession was ratified among others by Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah, *grandfather of Chief Minister Omar Abdullah.

Sheikh Abdullah's endorsement of the accession of Jammu and Kashmir with India is recorded in his autobiography 'Aatish-e-Chinar'.

*'It is a message to the world that Jammu and Kashmir is an integral part of India,' said Mohinder Sharma, a resident of Gandhi Nagar. Others echoed him.*

Almost all political parties of Jammu have joined hands to celebrate the accession of the state with India as a rebuff to the separatists in Kashmir.

*The celebrations this year are being held on a large scale, provoked by Chief Minister Omar Abdullah's statement in the assembly raising a question mark over the nature of the accession with India.* He has added to the controversy by repeatedly talking of Pakistan's role in the Kashmir issue.

*'It's an act of severe irresponsibility by the chief minister* who is in office because of the Indian constitution and still publicly displays lack of faith in the state's accession with India. This is unacceptable,' said Sunil Sethi, president of the Jammu Bar Association. 

Jammu celebrates anniversary of state's accession with India

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Your Highness,Arundati Roy..Eat it.

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## KALKI

^^ How did you display the Indian flag?


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## INDIAN007

A strong Answer to Geelani , Arundhati roy and co............

:india: :india: :india:

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## Hawkish

Shove your middle ground useless to Kashmirs.

Kashmiris hate Indian high-handedness (meaning: arrogance, superiority complex) and have little faith in Pakistan (meaning don't want to be another AK)

So India and Pakistan - give the gift of freedom to Kashmirs. They will be grateful for life time. BTW, this is THE middle ground approach

Don't waste your time on solutions that suits you but worthless to the people live in Kashmir.



Karthic Sri said:


> This is exactly the sticking point.
> 
> For Indians middle point is accepting LoC as IB, thus loosing P0K (Indian stand)
> 
> For Pakistanis there is no middle ground - the only ground is accesion of Valley (not J&K) to Pakistan ,albeit through a circuitous method of asking for the plebiscite.
> 
> So even in Middle ground,we are poles apart...God help us.!!
> 
> p.s,.: un-biased post.


----------



## Pride

Hawkish said:


> Shove your middle ground useless to Kashmirs.
> 
> *Kashmiris hate Indian high-handedness (meaning: arrogance, superiority complex) and have little faith in Pakistan (meaning don't want to be another AK)*
> 
> So India and Pakistan - give the gift of freedom to Kashmirs. They will be grateful for life time. BTW, this is THE middle ground approach
> 
> Don't waste your time on solutions that suits you but worthless to the people live in Kashmir.



Here you are delusioned about Indian Kashmiris and their opinion about India. I met many logical and many illogical kid including very old guys. For angry youth, India is Indian army and its democratically chosen people and there are very less people to people contact for outside their valley. Hence your adjectives for Indians with respect to Kashmiris are only yours.

Let me make it very clear, whethere you take Kashmir or Balochistan there are very few people involved in uprising rest are either listener or having no stance. The middle ground approach for Kashmir is status-quo acceptance, LoC as international border, free determination to chose country (India or Pak, sorry no Kashmir) to live with and for rest vanishing article 370, streamlining economic process to J&K, Providing education and job. Nothing else will be done in future whether India Pakistan fought thousands of war on the same overtly or covertly.


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## HAK

Hawkish said:


> Shove your middle ground useless to Kashmirs.
> 
> Kashmiris hate Indian high-handedness (meaning: arrogance, superiority complex) and have little faith in Pakistan (meaning don't want to be another AK)
> 
> So India and Pakistan - give the gift of freedom to Kashmirs. They will be grateful for life time. BTW, this is THE middle ground approach
> 
> Don't waste your time on solutions that suits you but worthless to the people live in Kashmir.





Pakistans stand on kashmir is "Hold a referendem with three choices

1. Join pakistan
2. Join India
3. Form an indipendant state.


and than do what they choose


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## Von Hölle

HAK said:


> Pakistans stand on kashmir is "Hold a referendem with three choices
> 
> 1. Join pakistan
> 2. Join India
> 3. Form an indipendant state.
> 
> 
> and than do what they choose



Could you provide an official Pakistani govt document..where the 3 choice is given..as far as I know UN res 48 gives only first two choices.


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## HAK

Pride said:


> These are very lazy arguments any country give when they analyze their long pending issues. West may have interest here but are we fool enough to live with their such "Bone of contention". Why we could not resolve our issue bilateraly when there were no "West" was involved?
> 
> Look at China, Except with India and Korea they could resolve their border issue with talks including their ardent anti Russia and Japan. Why can't we? Why the mess created by west in the world can't be resolved by 2 parties. There were many instances even in Israel-Palestine conflict when they were living peacefully with status quo but then either Hamas jumps up with their activity to get full Palestine liberation or Israeli army will come up in Palestine area.
> 
> Its our home, we need to resolve it and what we need to do is to keep emotion and religion specially aside to resolve this geo-political thing till then dont blame them and focus on reslving this.



Do you think Kashmit Dispute is an accident??

seriously, WAKE UP

But yes i agree, NOW this is our problem and we have to solve it.

But you are the ones that are making kashmir a problem.

Hold a referendum in accordance with UN resolutions and it will be over.

If THEY CHOOSE to go with india, i dont think we will object. 

But you also have to show the same attitude towards this!!


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## HAK

Von H&#246;lle;1226933 said:


> Could you provide an official Pakistani govt document..where the 3 choice is given..as far as I know UN res 48 gives only first two choices.




are you a year old...
seriously act mature. it is this pathetic attitude of yours that wont allow us to solve this problem


2, 3 what ever!!!

just give it to them...
give something



and than honorwhat they choose...


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## Hawkish

With you guys running your mouth on how Kashmiris love India, (ya, the pictures of covered faces throwing stones everyday on BBC are fake), Do you guys have the guts to hold a referendum? and see what they want instead of lecturing about economic development for the past 50 years.



Pride said:


> Here you are delusioned about Indian Kashmiris and their opinion about India. I met many logical and many illogical kid including very old guys. For angry youth, India is Indian army and its democratically chosen people and there are very less people to people contact for outside their valley. Hence your adjectives for Indians with respect to Kashmiris are only yours.
> 
> Let me make it very clear, whethere you take Kashmir or Balochistan there are very few people involved in uprising rest are either listener or having no stance. The middle ground approach for Kashmir is status-quo acceptance, LoC as international border, free determination to chose country (India or Pak, sorry no Kashmir) to live with and for rest vanishing article 370, streamlining economic process to J&K, Providing education and job. Nothing else will be done in future whether India Pakistan fought thousands of war on the same overtly or covertly.


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## Hawkish

Is it? If this is the case, why no one listens to Qureshi when talks about Kashmir? He is virtually ignored and the moment he opens up Kashmir issue, he gets the reply 'talk to India'. Even your closest friend China is keeping neutral. Man up and own the responsibility.



Irfan Baloch said:


> I more or less agree with your post my friend the problem is not Pakistani stand like the title suggests. (I renamed it by the way).


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## Von Hölle

HAK said:


> are you a year old...
> seriously act mature. it is this pathetic attitude of yours that wont allow us to solve this problem
> 
> 
> 2, 3 what ever!!!
> 
> just give it to them...
> give something
> 
> 
> 
> and than honorwhat they choose...



Spare me your patronizing attitude ..you made a claim in your previous post..* back it up...*it would be better, if you do not twist govt's foreign policy..to gain some brownie points on an online forum


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Omar1984 said:


> Independent nation of Kashmir is not in Pakistan's interest.
> 
> _Kashmiri Muslims should favor Pakistan 100% like Kashmiri Hindus favor India or else this freedom movement will not work._
> 
> *UN resolutions gives Kashmiris only two options: chose Pakistan or chose India*.



Firstly:

There is neither a Kashmiri hindu nor a Kashmiri muslim, we are all Kashmirs. Please take your divided view elsewhere, Kashmir has suffered enough ethnic crimes.

Secondly:

It is not for you, or for Paksitan or India to decide what is best for us. It is for us, the people of Kashmir to decide our future. Either side accepting a solution to the Kashmir problem that would split Kashmir between Indian and Pakistan would cause deep hatred within the Kashmiri community, and a new insurgency would be on India/Pakistan's hands. Just some facts.

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## Hawkish

Excellent point. Since both India and Pakistan betrayed Kashmir cause,and both have vested interest, I would suggest, Kashmiris seeks outside help. Are there any leaders in Kashmir who can muster outside support successfully?



Azad Kashmir said:


> Firstly:
> 
> There is neither a Kashmiri hindu nor a Kashmiri muslim, we are all Kashmirs. Please take your divided view elsewhere, Kashmir has suffered enough ethnic crimes.
> 
> Secondly:
> 
> It is not for you, or for Paksitan or India to decide what is best for us. It is for us, the people of Kashmir to decide our future. Either side accepting a solution to the Kashmir problem that would split Kashmir between Indian and Pakistan would cause deep hatred within the Kashmiri community, and a new insurgency would be on India/Pakistan's hands. Just some facts.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

foxbat said:


> Well. Pakistan jumped the gun and we will now never know.. Would we. ? However, *had that invasion by Pakistan army irregulars hadnt happened*, Pakistan would have had a much stronger case aganist accession to India if that went down..Not anymore...



The invasion of Kashmir was a herroic act by Pakistani irregulars, a heroic act the world has chosen to ignore. *Genocide and descrimination* against Kashmiri Muslims was in progress for too long in Kashmir; Pakistan saved the Kashmiri Muslims from a fate perhaps worser than the Holocaust (complete annhilation). 

Isn't India using an Instrument of Assession from the same Maharaja who had his Army and Hindu Extremists commit *Genocide* on the Kashmiri Muslims? And isn't it the same India that is continuing the Maharaja's policy of *discrimation, murder and violence* towards Kashmiri Muslims?

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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Hawkish said:


> Excellent point. Since both India and Pakistan betrayed Kashmir cause,and both have vested interest, I would suggest, Kashmiris seeks outside help. Are there any leaders in Kashmir who can muster outside support successfully?



Probably not, Mirwaiz Ummar Farooq would be the best choice as he is more for what the Kashmiri community wants. However, his profile is small in world affairs and I believe the OIC is the only world-wide organization he has been invited too. 

IMO, a strong united Hurriyat front for a plebliscite with all 3 options backed with an increase in armed struggle against combatants would bring the Kashmir issue back to the table; Kashmir isn't getting enough media attention as is needed, at the moment.

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## Hawkish

Ya, keeping doing this type of stupid stuff (add kargil to the list), world will not only continue to ignore, but support India aganist the genuine movement that deserves independence



Azad Kashmir said:


> The invasion of Kashmir was a herroic act by Pakistani irregulars, a heroic act the world has chosen to ignore. towards Kashmiri Muslims?


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## Hawkish

kashmiris never had the opportunity to show their individuality, and mostly they were categorized as Indian Hindus or Pakistan Muslims. Most discussions were secession to Pakistan or India. They lack identity and leadership .



Azad Kashmir said:


> Probably not, Mirwaiz Ummar Farooq would be the best choice as he is more for what the Kashmiri community wants. However, his profile is small in world affairs and I believe the OIC is the only world-wide organization he has been invited too.
> 
> IMO, a strong united Hurriyat front for a plebliscite with all 3 options backed with an increase in armed struggle against combatants would bring the Kashmir issue back to the table; Kashmir isn't getting enough media attention as is needed, at the moment.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Hawkish said:


> kashmiris never had the opportunity to show their individuality, and mostly they were categorized as Indian Hindus or Pakistan Muslims. Most discussions were secession to Pakistan or India. They lack identity and leadership .



Touched the point perfectly, it's why I chose the Mirwaiz in my reply to that post and why I support him; he has more individuality that Syed Ali Geelani. Even so, Mirwiaz needs to become more independent, and more publicity is defenently needed. I wonder why he hasn't visited western nations or made use of the Kashmiri migrants living in the UK/Europe.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Hawkish said:


> Ya, keeping doing this type of stupid stuff (add kargil to the list), world will not only continue to ignore, but support India aganist the genuine movement that deserves independence



The Invasion was a different story imo, I've read in a couple of places that it was called for by a lot of Kashmiri Muslims. Though, funding the Kashmiri Armed Groups at the time may have been a better option. As for Kargil, Pakistani military action against India won't bring Kashmir the sympathy it needs from western audience, home grown stuggles would have more effect but imo, targetting civilians would work against any home grown Armed Struggle, the targetting of troops may work.

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## Hawkish

I think India restricts movement of leaders outside India Right? Stuff like canceling passport etc..



Azad Kashmir said:


> Touched the point perfectly, it's why I chose the Mirwaiz in my reply to that post and why I support him; he has more individuality that Syed Ali Geelani. Even so, Mirwiaz needs to become more independent, and more publicity is defenently needed. I wonder why he hasn't visited western nations or made use of the Kashmiri migrants living in the UK/Europe.


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## Donatello

You mean forced accession, right?


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## Von Hölle

Azad Kashmir said:


> The invasion of Kashmir was a herroic act by Pakistani irregulars, a heroic act the world has chosen to ignore. *Genocide and descrimination* against Kashmiri Muslims was in progress for too long in Kashmir; Pakistan saved the Kashmiri Muslims from a fate perhaps worser than the Holocaust (complete annhilation).
> 
> Isn't India using an Instrument of Assession from the same Maharaja who had his Army and Hindu Extremists commit *Genocide* on the Kashmiri Muslims? And isn't it the same India that is continuing the Maharaja's policy of *discrimation, murder and violence* towards Kashmiri Muslims?



In the the hindsight ..from Pakistan's point of view.. invasion was the worst thing you could have done..had you not panicked, and talked to the King(perhaps offered him more autonomy- as he wanted to remain in power)...you could have got the whole Kashmir...but you cavalier attitude of might is right made sure that Nehru got Kashmir on his own terms...

too your second point.. perhaps can provide source for this "genocide for too long" point...be careful not to point out riots which had broken at the time of partition ..as we already know of them and were happening thorough out the length and breadth of the country.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Hawkish said:


> I think India restricts movement of leaders outside India Right? Stuff like canceling passport etc..



That is true, but the using the Kashmiri migrants is still possible and needed. Over the Internet as well, Kashmir doesn't have a "hot-spot" website that delivers information / propaganha from Kashmir as it happens, only a couple of semi-pro sites that hardly get hits. Utilizing social networks is also important to get the Kashmir issue into the minds of more people.

EDIT: I think there was a Hurriyat visit to AJK / Gilgit & Baltistan in 2005, though I'm not sure of that and it could have been due to the peace process.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Von Hölle;1227035 said:


> In the the hindsight ..from Pakistan's point of view.. invasion was the worst thing you could have done..had you not panicked, and talked to the King(perhaps offered him more autonomy- as he wanted to remain in power)...you could have got the whole Kashmir...but you cavalier attitude of might is right made sure that Nehru got Kashmir on his own terms...
> 
> too your second point.. perhaps can provide source for this "genocide for too long" point...be careful not to point out riots which had broken at the time of partition ..as we already know of them and were happening thorough out the length and breadth of the country.



In hindsight, there may have been better ways, but we cannot call it the worst thing in general, as it saved a lot of lives.

For a source:

_*1931*
July 13:The people of Kashmir had been raising their voice against the Dogra usurpation of their land and as a result they faced brutal consequences. On July 13, 1931, a large number of Kashmiris gathered in front of the Srinagar central jail, at a time when the trial of a youth Abdul Qadeer accused of involvement in a case of agitation, was in progress inside the jail. The objective was to demonstrate solidarity with the young man. As the time for obligatory prayer approached a young Kashmiri stood for Azan (Call for the prayer) and the Dogra police opened fire on him, and he got martyred. Thereby, another youth took the place of the martyred young man and started the Azan. He too was shot dead. In this way 22 Kashmiris embraced martyrdom in their efforts to complete the Azan._

Source - Kashmir Media Service; apart from accounts of my family members, I will get you some more sources when I get the time.

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## Irfan Baloch

Azad Kashmir said:


> In hindsight, there may have been better ways, but we cannot call it the worst thing in general, as it saved a lot of lives.
> 
> For a source:
> 
> _*1931*
> July 13:The people of Kashmir had been raising their voice against the Dogra usurpation of their land and as a result they faced brutal consequences. _


_

thanks for the insight brother
I pray for an independent & free Kashmir according to the wishes and demand of the Kashmiri people_


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Tuesday, 26 October 2010
Ziqa&#8217;ad 16, 1431* 

*Pulling Fingernails Won&#8217;t Turn Kashmiris Into Indians, Pleads Arundhati Roy​*- &#8216;Pity that nation that jails those who ask for justice&#8217;
- &#8216;No one should be killed, raped, imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to force them to say they are Indians&#8217;

*-->* India&#8217;s Nobel laureate meets with the husband and brother of two Kashmiri women raped and killed by India Army soldiers. All major Indian newspapers warn Roy of imminent arrest on sedition charges.



> SRINAGAR, Indian-Occupied Kashmir&#8212;I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning&#8217;s papers say that I may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at recent public meetings on Kashmir.
> 
> I said what millions of people here say every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have written and said for years.
> 
> Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of my speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for justice.
> 
> *I spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one of the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of their homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I visited on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian poor who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who are now learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police state.*
> 
> Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir which had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the brutal **** and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women whose bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose murderers have still not been brought to justice.
> 
> I met Shakeel, who is Nilofer&#8217;s husband and Asiya&#8217;s brother. We sat in a circle of people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they would ever get &#8216;insaaf&#8217; &#8211; justice - from India, and now believed that Azadi &#8211; freedom - was their only hope.
> 
> I met young stone-pelters who had been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who told me how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had been taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as punishment for throwing stones.
> 
> In the papers some have accused me of giving &#8216;hate-speeches&#8217;, of wanting India to break up.
> 
> On the contrary, what I say comes from love and pride.
> 
> It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to force them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live in a society that is striving to be a just one.
> 
> Pity the nation that has to silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation that needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, mass murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who prey on the poorest of the poor, roam free.&#8221;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arundhati Roy is an Indian Nobel laureate opposed to her country&#8217;s occupation of Kashmir. This comment was published by SOS Kashmir




S.O.S. Kashmir


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## garibnawaz

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...i-bhookhe-nange-hindustan-16.html#post1227052

Bigger and better thread on same subject.


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## gubbi

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> *-->* *Indias Nobel laureate *meets with the husband and brother of two Kashmiri women raped and killed by India Army soldiers. *All major Indian newspapers warn Roy of imminent arrest on sedition charges.*
> 
> S.O.S. Kashmir



For all thats worth, this piece of garbage gets passed as news!!

Arundhati Roy and Nobel prize? Pray, when did she win that Nobel prize and for what?

When the source cannot get their information right, their credibility is questionable to say the least.

Second point, where in Indian media are their opinions or editorials warning that ****** AR about "imminent arrest"? The fact that GoI has ignored that attention wh0re and refuses to arrest her says a lot how much credibility she has in India.

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## Von Hölle

Azad Kashmir said:


> In hindsight, there may have been better ways, but we cannot call it the worst thing in general, as it saved a lot of lives.
> 
> For a source:
> 
> _*1931*
> July 13:The people of Kashmir had been raising their voice against the Dogra usurpation of their land and as a result they faced brutal consequences. On July 13, 1931, a large number of Kashmiris gathered in front of the Srinagar central jail, at a time when the trial of a youth Abdul Qadeer accused of involvement in a case of agitation, was in progress inside the jail. The objective was to demonstrate solidarity with the young man. As the time for obligatory prayer approached a young Kashmiri stood for Azan (Call for the prayer) and the Dogra police opened fire on him, and he got martyred. Thereby, another youth took the place of the martyred young man and started the Azan. He too was shot dead. In this way 22 Kashmiris embraced martyrdom in their efforts to complete the Azan._
> 
> Source - Kashmir Media Service; apart from accounts of my family members, I will get you some more sources when I get the time.



On the contrary ..it ended up spilling lot of blood.. if you take into account the human losses in 3 wars which were fought between Indian-Pakistan.. plus human losses in countering Pakistan sponsored insurgency after 89...net aggregate will be thousand times more than supposed genocide before partition.

As far as link you gave ..which is suppose to give a comprehensive chronological account of mass massacres in Kashmir..gives first incident in 1931 (in which 22 ppl were killed) and next incident in 1947 ..so i don't know about you but it does not look like a genocide to me.

PS : will be waiting on other incidents.


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## Jade

Since when did Ms Roy became a Nobel laureate?


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## Capt.Popeye

jade1982 said:


> Since when did Ms Roy became a Nobel laureate?



Actually that should be "wannabe Nobel Laureate".
She is aiming for the Nobel Peace Prize. The she will enter the 'hall of fame; with the likes of Henry Kissinger and Menachem Begin. LOLL.


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## garibnawaz

Capt.Popeye said:


> Actually that should be "wannabe Nobel Laureate".
> She is aiming for the Nobel Peace Prize. The she will enter the 'hall of fame; with the likes of Henry Kissinger and Menachem Begin. LOLL.



Is it just me or we forgot Barack Obama?


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## chander_011

with all respect to replies of all members, you are ignoring the important fact that whatever the world/uno says, it will be the indian parliament which will decide the future of negotiations on kashmir and no matter what happens indian PM cannot go against the wishes of the parliaments. so think only those solutions which our parliament can accept otherwise go on fighting and nothing will be acheived.

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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Von Hölle;1227151 said:


> On the contrary ..it ended up spilling lot of blood.. if you take into account the human losses in 3 wars which were fought between Indian-Pakistan.. plus human losses in countering Pakistan sponsored insurgency after 89...net aggregate will be thousand times more than supposed genocide before partition.
> 
> As far as link you gave ..which is suppose to give a comprehensive chronological account of mass massacres in Kashmir..gives first incident in 1931 (in which 22 ppl were killed) and next incident in 1947 ..so i don't know about you but it does not look like a genocide to me.
> 
> PS : will be waiting on other incidents.



The genocide would have continued after the partition, and more civilians would have been killed. Short term, it was a good move but long term it wasn't.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Irfan Baloch said:


> thanks for the insight brother
> I pray for an independent & free Kashmir according to the wishes and demand of the Kashmiri people



Thank You


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## Von Hölle

Azad Kashmir said:


> The genocide would have continued after the partition, and more civilians would have been killed. Short term, it was a good move but long term it wasn't.



Well now that you have power to predict alternate reality..perhaps you can also guide me to what would have happened had Elvis not died..


*..but wait a minute, where is the genocide ..all I can see is two unrelated incidents 16yrs apart.*


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## srsrsr

Azad Kashmir said:


> The invasion of Kashmir was a herroic act by Pakistani irregulars, a heroic act the world has chosen to ignore.


I'm baffled by these emotional statements. What happened to your heroism after that? If you've continued the heriosm, you should've got full Kashmir by now? 

Its a crappy knee jerk reaction done by Pakistan, that moved the topic from a possible discussion table to the battle.


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## foxbat

Von Hölle;1227035 said:


> In the the hindsight ..from Pakistan's point of view.. invasion was the worst thing you could have done..had you not panicked, and talked to the King(perhaps offered him more autonomy- as he wanted to remain in power)...you could have got the whole Kashmir...but you cavalier attitude of might is right made sure that Nehru got Kashmir on his own terms...



Thats exactly the point I am trying to make. Pakistan got suckered into invading Kashmir and losing it. I remember reading it in one of the books of Khushwant Singh, that GoI sent mixed signals to Pakistan forcing Pakistani establishment to think that an invasion(fictitious) from India was imminant and that forced Pakistan's hand. In my view it was the worst decision of Pakistani foreign policy. Probably worse than even the handling of East Pakistan.

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## Urbanized Greyhound

> I spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one of the most brutal military occupations in the world; *for Kashmiri Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of their homeland*; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I visited on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian poor who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who are now learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police state.



and did she bother to speak out against those who drove them out in the first place or was she too scared to do so . More scared than of the "unjust and repressive" GOI ???? Hypocrisy personified


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Urbanized Greyhound said:


> and did she bother to speak out against those who drove them out in the first place or was she too scared to do so . More scared than of the "unjust and repressive" GOI ???? Hypocrisy personified



don't worry....the so-called ''displaced'' pandits are already calling for her detention, and action taken against her & Mr. Geelani 


Act against Roy, Geelani, demands Kashmiri Pandit group


interesting how she does assert in her speeches supporting the call for azadi were what 'millions' in Kashmir say every day and were 'fundamentally a call for justice'

indian media of course forgets to mention this important, obvious and crystal clear ground-reality


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## KS

Hawkish said:


> Shove your middle ground useless to Kashmirs.
> 
> Kashmiris hate Indian high-handedness (meaning: arrogance, superiority complex) and little faith in Pakistan (meaning don't want to be another AK)



Mr.American,Like it or not the Kashmir issue will be solved(if it is) only in such a way as to take of the interests of India and Pakistan first and foremost and if time permits the Kashmiris.That is the cold,hard reality that none of the world powers ,including US can change.

So only if the middle ground is acceptable to Indians and Pakistanis,this will be solved.Frankly no one,neither Indians (including Jammuites,Ladakhis ) and Pakistanis care a fig about the Valley Muslims.



Hawkish said:


> So India and Pakistan - give the gift of freedom to Kashmirs. They will be grateful for life time. BTW, this is THE middle ground approach
> 
> Don't waste your time on solutions that suits you but worthless to the people live in Kashmir.



You think independent Kashmir will become Shangri-La ?? Are you that naive??

*It will become another Afghanistan* with competing interests of India,Pakistan and China vying for influence and result we all know.
So Kashmir is better off with India and Pakistan.

So only solutions that are acceptable to India (Indian Parliament) and Pakistan (Pakistani Army) can/will be discussed.

If you think otherwise,then I guess you are not living in America...but in a place where the sun doesnt shine.


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## Urbanized Greyhound

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> don't worry....the so-called ''displaced'' pandits are already calling for her detention, and action taken against her & Mr. Geelani
> 
> 
> Act against Roy, Geelani, demands Kashmiri Pandit group
> 
> 
> *interesting how she does assert in her speeches supporting the call for azadi were what 'millions' in Kashmir say every day and were 'fundamentally a call for justice'*
> 
> *indian media of course forgets to mention this important, obvious and crystal clear ground-reality*



the Indian media is so exhaustive and critical that they even interviewed virulently anti India female leaders of the Hurriyat hardline faction and broadcast it to every nook and corner . Sitting here in bangalore I could see the burqa clad lady make provocative statements against India openly on camera beside a calm Barkha Dutt, honestly never felt the urge to break the T.V screen more at the sheer audacity of these people, the way it seems at least in such cases Chinese and Pakistani media restraint and limitations do have a lot of merit......Indian media simply goes overboard with different " views and so called freedom of speech"

about Arundhuti , a lady who can drag in India's poverty and social inequality to justify the Mumbai butchery( seriously we all thought that was her worst ...but apparently not), deserves no respect and no rights as a citizen either.

The U.S the world's oldest democracy decided this point about secessionist tendencies in a democracy long ago in their civil war , such ideas ,notions and movements even in the face of rights , wasn't tolerated .....and going by this example .....a country's national integrity is ranked over any right to free expression in a democracy.
Every right is tempered by a limitation.....in this case the right to free expression by the law against sedition.....


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Urbanized Greyhound said:


> Chinese and Pakistani media restraint and limitations do have a lot of merit.......


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## Urbanized Greyhound

Abu Zolfiqar said:


>



was just reading a piece about Nawabzada Bugti jnr the other day.......if you were be kind enough to go over the way Bugti was hunted down or the number of reports in the Pakistan newspapers about economic situation in AK , or even the one-sided and nationalistic tone in which the Lal masjid siege was presented or the WOT is currently being carried out by PA troops .....you might see what I mean .....due regards....


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## DEXTOR

May be her statment will sound music to some people on this forum or in pakistan. people like arundhati roy come on center stage and take advantage of democratic country and freedom of speech and then enjoy little but short and cheap popularity which may help in incresing the sale of some of her non-sense books.....or may be her statment makes some ppl sleeps bettr for a week or so..

But what will be the end result?

kashmir is and kashmir will remain and integral part of india:GOI


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Urbanized Greyhound said:


> was just reading a piece about Nawabzada Bugti jnr the other day.......if you were be kind enough to go over the way Bugti was hunted down or the number of reports in the Pakistan newspapers about economic situation in AK , or even the one-sided and nationalistic tone in which the Lal masjid siege was presented or the WOT is currently being carried out by PA troops .....you might see what I mean .....due regards....



find me a media that can assist a ''long march'' and even help topple a regime. find me a media where terrorists can easily contact them and get their distorted views heard, live.


i'm sorry, i cannot accept your argument

Lal Masjid, Bugti, etc. were all covered quite objectively and openly I think. Hell, I had no idea about Lal Masjid and what was brewing until I turned on the news and heard about some Korean lady being thrashed by burqa-clad women because she supposedly ran a prostitution ring


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## S_O_C_O_M

*KASHMIR POST 1947​**International facilitation is required to help the people of Jammu and Kashmir to attain their inalienable rights*​

Wednesday, 27 Oct 2010 

Shamim Shawl

Kashmir was sold to Gulab Singh by the British Empire authoring a great tragedy in human civilization. Although Amritsar Treaty gave the state an independent position but started the worst historical phase of slavery. Since 1846 to 1947 under Dogra Raj People of Jammu and Kashmir were living a tyrannical life.

There was a hope at the time of partition along with all princely states that Kashmiris will be given a chance to choose their future But Maharaja&#8217;s hesitation to Join Pakistan or declare the state independent gave chance to India. The same as was done in Junagadh and Hyderabad. India's first Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru made a pledge to resolve the Kashmir dispute in accordance with the "wishes of the people of Kashmir". But he betrayed. The oldest unresolved international conflict in the world is still a core political dispute between India and Pakistan. International Community accepts it but is silent.

In order to understand the present India-Pakistan conflict we have to return to 1947 when the British left the subcontinent. Although Jawaharlal Nehru made a promise to the people of Jammu and Kashmir on November 2, 1947: &#8220;And let me make it clear that it has been our policy all along that where there is a dispute about the accession of a state to either Dominion, the accession must be made by the people of that state.&#8221; It is also a historical fact that state of Jammu Kashmir is not a part of India and a long battle imposed on the people of state is a proof that India is using might to continue its presence and delay a free and fair plebiscite. Indian claim on Kashmir is politically, legally and morally unjustified. Establishment of an UN authority in the state from January 24 1949 to supervise the ceasefire between India and Pakistan is another legal and historical proof of Kashmir disputes nature. The observers, under the command of the Military Adviser appointed by the UN Secretary General, formed the nucleus of the United Nations Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP). Taking the issue to the UN, India was confident of winning a plebiscite but it never trusted the people of the state. There were three wars between India and Pakistan but all failed to decide the future of Kashmir. The status quo was maintained until 1989 when pro-independence movement started with renewed vigour in the Indian administrated Kashmir. India unleashed a reign of terror against Kashmiris. More than on hundred thousand people have been killed in the last twenty years.

*Mountbatten's letter to the Maharaja dated October 27, 1947, also says that issue" should be settled by a reference to the people".*

"The question of accession should be decided in accordance with the wishes of people of the State." India has authored a number of dark pages in Kashmir. Jammu genocide in 1947 is still fresh in our minds. It has widely been reported in International press. In 1947, Horace Alexander wrote in the Spectator (January 16, 1948) that the killings had &#8220;the tacit consent of State authority&#8221; and put the figure at 200,000.&#8221; On August 10, 1948, The Times (London) published a report by &#8220;A Special Correspondent&#8221;, an Indian Civil Service official who had served in the State. He wrote: &#8220;2, 37,000 Muslims were systematically exterminated &#8211; unless they escaped to Pakistan along the border &#8211; by all the forces of the Dogra State, headed by the Maharaja in person and aided by Hindus and Sikhs. This happened in October 1947, five days before the first Pathan invasion and nine days before the Maharaja&#8217;s accession to India. &#8221; Between 1941 and 1961, the Muslim population of Jammu fell from 61 percent to 38 percent.

British daily The London Times wrote on October 10, 1947 in a report from its special correspondent in India that the Maharaja, under his own supervision, got assassinated 237,000 Muslims, using military forces in Jammu area. The editor of "Statesman" Ian Stephen, in his book "Horned Moon" wrote that till the end of autumn 1947, more than 200,000 Muslims were assassinated. It is also a fact that State of Jammu and Kashmir is really in danger and a large number of Muslims butchered in the province of Jammu, and a small number of province were allowed to come out of the State and taking refuge in Pakistan. Pakistan is still giving refuge to the people of the State of Jammu and Kashmir.

The Indian declared the state of Jammu and Kashmir &#8216;disturb&#8217; and imposed an act (AFSPA) which gives freehand to kill, shoot and assassinate people. State of Jammu and Kashmir is really in danger. Robin Raphael Assistant Secretary of State declared Jammu & Kashmir as a &#8220;disputed territory&#8221; and started calling for the resolution of the dispute between India and Pakistan in accordance with the wishes of the Kashmiri people. We knew that all countries who gained their freedom at the expense of their great sacrifices. They are emerging as independent nations, and are enjoying full share in the global world. This emergence of independent states in world like East Timor and Bosnia is a source of great inspiration to those countries which are struggling for freedom. It is hoped that Barrack Obama&#8217;s visit to India will be a new hope and will support, morally and politically, the struggle of Kashmiri people. It is our responsibility to approach and inform all the stakeholders of the world.

To conclude the world conscience must take notice of the existing painful situation in Kashmir where people have been imprisoned in their homes. 111 people have been killed. This human tragedy is multiplying the passage of every day. What is needed is international facilitation to help the people of Jammu and Kashmir to redeem their fundamental freedoms and their inalienable right to self-determination. To choose a political future of their choice.

Author is a London based Kashmiri



Kashmir post 1947


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

srsrsr said:


> I'm baffled by these emotional statements. What happened to your heroism after that? If you've continued the heriosm, you should've got full Kashmir by now?
> 
> Its a crappy knee jerk reaction done by Pakistan, that moved the topic from a possible discussion table to the battle.



My friend, you do not understand the reality of war. In war the following happens:

-A ceasefire
-Defeat of the defender
-Defeat of the agressor

The first was the most likely to happen and did happen; I believe Nehru promised a plebliscite if Pakistan accepted a ceasfire, the promise ofcourse like all promises related to Kashmiri freedom by India, was nothing short of a lie.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Karthic Sri said:


> Mr.American,Like it or not the Kashmir issue will be solved(if it is) only in such a way as to take of the interests of India and Pakistan first and foremost and if time permits the Kashmiris.That is the cold,hard reality that none of the world powers ,including US can change.
> 
> So only if the middle ground is acceptable to Indians and Pakistanis,this will be solved.Frankly no one,neither Indians (including Jammuites,Ladakhis ) and Pakistanis care a fig about the Valley Muslims.
> 
> 
> 
> You think independent Kashmir will become Shangri-La ?? Are you that naive??
> 
> *It will become another Afghanistan* with competing interests of India,Pakistan and China vying for influence and result we all know.
> So Kashmir is better off with India and Pakistan.
> 
> So only solutions that are acceptable to India (Indian Parliament) and Pakistan (Pakistani Army) can/will be discussed.
> 
> If you think otherwise,then I guess you are not living in America...but in a place where the sun doesnt shine.



As I said previously, a solution between India/Pakistan without acknowledging the desires of the Kashmiri community would lead to a renewed Armed Struggles and Freedom Movement, one that would perhaps be much larger than the current one and would discredit Pakistan/India on the world stage. Something neither want.

What proof do you have of Kashmir becoming another Afghanistan? The cultural and religious set is different in Kashmir than the one in Afghanistan. Furthermore, as is the case with every developing nation, surrounding countries and superpowers vy for influence. I don't think Pakistan would be financially capable to afford an offensive war with any nation for the next 10 years or so, and the relationship Kashmiris and Pakistanis have would further complicate a possible war. Neither do China or India need the critizism of invading a much smaller nation.


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## Hulk

For people suggesting Independent Kashmir as a solution, please list what is that you will gain in your daily life which you will not have otherwise.

Please exclude presence of military and their side effects, as there are other ways to solve that problem.

List down what do you mean by freedom.


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## Rumporum

Status like &#197;land Islands may be worth trying in J&K ....this is probably not going to ever happen given the mind set in India mainly due to the history how things have evolved since 1947 as you guys have been discussing here. The &#197;land Islands example would be a case to point out and if a similar understanding can be reached then at least in the state of Jammu and Kashmir some resolution is in sight ( I am only referring to J&K and not Pakistan Occupied Kashmir or Azad Kashmir)

The &#197;land Island &#197;land Islands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

very nice place to be in as well....in summer though


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## Omar1984

Azad Kashmir said:


> Firstly:
> 
> There is neither a Kashmiri hindu nor a Kashmiri muslim, we are all Kashmirs. Please take your divided view elsewhere, Kashmir has suffered enough ethnic crimes.
> 
> Secondly:
> 
> It is not for you, or for Paksitan or India to decide what is best for us. It is for us, the people of Kashmir to decide our future. Either side accepting a solution to the Kashmir problem that would split Kashmir between Indian and Pakistan would cause deep hatred within the Kashmiri community, and a new insurgency would be on India/Pakistan's hands. Just some facts.




Truth of the matter is Kashmiri Hindus, who indians call pandits, all favor india.

Is there any Kashmiri hindu in the hurriyat committee? Is there any Kashmiri hindu in JKLF?

You should be glad that hindus are a minority in the Kashmiri community.

All Kashmiri Muslims need to favor Pakistan like Kashmiri hindus favor india or this freedom movement will never work.


Going against Pakistan will only hurt your cause. Theres no one in the world who supports the Kashmir cause as much as Pakistanis do. Not Arabs, not Turks, not Iranians, not Americans, not Europeans, and certainly not indians.

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## Hawkish

Friend

India is democracy and the world looks upon her as an example of a successful, largest democracy. She commands respect as the people elect their own leaders.

You know democracy is listening to its people.

1) People of Kashmir do not want to be part of India or Pakistan
2) They have little in common with India culturally
3) They want their own leader
4) There is a UN resolution pending for 50 years for plebiscite 
5) India has managed to postpone plebiscite for 50 years
6) Gross human rights violation in Kashmir concerns the world

Does it really matter to India if they become another Afghanistan or if they have se* everyday? So we greatly appreciate you move your as* out of Kashmir as soon as possible

Since you asked for, here is the wiki link for freedom
Freedom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Peace and god bless



indianrabbit said:


> For people suggesting Independent Kashmir as a solution, please list what is that you will gain in your daily life which you will not have otherwise.
> 
> Please exclude presence of military and their side effects, as there are other ways to solve that problem.
> 
> List down what do you mean by freedom.


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## StingRoy

Hawkish said:


> Friend
> You know democracy is listening to its people.
> 
> 1) People of Kashmir do not want to be part of India or Pakistan


Narrow sample of people (just in the valley). 40&#37; are non-muslims and they are happy staying in India. Out of the 60% there will be some more who are happy the way things are.



> 2) They have little in common with India culturally


Almost every state in India is culturally different from each other, thats the idea behind India. This is not a valid reason.



> 3) They want their own leader


They have chosen their own leader. Did Omar Adbullah come out of thin air and become the CM. Remember 70% voter turnout.



> 4) There is a UN resolution pending for 50 years for plebiscite.
> 5) India has managed to postpone plebiscite for 50 years


Plebiscite is for the whole region of JnK and has a lot of preconditions. Don't want to reiterate here. Go search and figure out why there couldn't have been a plebiscite.



> 6) Gross human rights violation in Kashmir concerns the world


Agree to some extent, but that is the case in other parts of India as well. Police often cross their limits to control the situation to prevent damage to pubic property and their own safety.


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## Hawkish

You are right on point no:2 especially for India. I don't agree on the rest

Omar is for both Jammu and Kashmir. Right?



dezi said:


> Narrow sample of people (just in the valley). 40% are non-muslims and they are happy staying in India. Out of the 60% there will be some more who are happy the way things are.
> 
> 
> Almost every state in India is culturally different from each other, thats the idea behind India. This is not a valid reason.
> 
> 
> They have chosen their own leader. Did Omar Adbullah come out of thin air and become the CM. Remember 70% voter turnout.
> 
> 
> Plebiscite is for the whole region of JnK and has a lot of preconditions. Don't want to reiterate here. Go search and figure out why there couldn't have been a plebiscite.
> 
> 
> Agree to some extent, but that is the case in other parts of India as well. Police often cross their limits to control the situation to prevent damage to pubic property and their own safety.


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## StingRoy

Hawkish said:


> You are right on point no:2 especially for India. I don't agree on the rest
> 
> Omar is for both Jammu and Kashmir. Right?



Yes Omar is for both Jammu and Kashmir.


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## Omar1984

YouTube - Kashmir children attacked by Indian soliders




YouTube - Kashmir Needs the World's Attention

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## Omar1984

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.





YouTube - Indian army terrorism in Occupied Kashmir


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## Omar1984

YouTube - Indian Army and Police Implicated in Kashmir Killings.01



YouTube - Indian Army and Police Implicated in Kashmir Killings.0 2



YouTube - Indian Army and Police Implicated in Kashmir Killings.0 3


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## Subramanian

Irfan Baloch said:


> I more or less agree with your post my friend
> the problem is not Pakistani stand like the title suggests. (I renamed it by the way) India also is very emotional when it comes to Kashmir
> 
> the way the boundaries were drawn by the Radcliff and the way the British hurried out of the British India, led to tens of thousands of deaths of the people and a permanent animosity among the two big religions.
> 
> I agree that British has played their part. its their built -in nature, they left conflicts in every single place they have ever set their foot upon. but we as mature nations must resolve it on the basis of the will of the people and mutual benefit. we must find a middle ground and not let the extremists on both sides dictate our future.
> The Kashmir cause has suffered a lot at the hands of the Afghan Jihad inspired insurgents. They used the same tactics in Kashmir which vindicated the presence of over a million Indian troops and thus gave them a free pass to punish the Kashmiri population.
> 
> What really makes me sad is on many occasions India & Pakistan almost agreed in principle in resolving Kashmir dispute but the fate had other Ideas. The change in governments on both sides stalled the efforts. There is a genuine desire to resolve it amicably that addresses the Kashmiri demands and also safeguards the concerns & sensitivities of both India and Pakistan.
> 
> There has to be a middle ground that both nations will have to take. Only a strong, sincere and committed leadership in both countries will enable this resolution. A leadership that wont be pressured by the right wing parties, intelligence agencies and other hawks that have their own interpretation about the conflict and prefer the status-quo the result is that the blood is being spilled on both sides feeding the right wing extremist sentiments.




Good post and very accurate.

how do we go forward from here?there is a serious trust deficit brother.how do we tackle that?


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## Subramanian

jayron said:


> Tibetians are no Talibans. Dailai Lama is no Mulla Omar. The sole reason the world has concern for the Tibetains is because they are peaceful people. I think Xinjiang is a more volatile Chinese area then Tibet.
> 
> Indians are good at instigating separatist movements in other countries. Mukthi Bahini in BD and LTTE(during its inception) to some extent were supported by Indians. But in this case, there isn't much support for Tibet among common Indians unlike the Bengalis and Tamils in India who supported MB and LTTE respectively.
> 
> Additionally, if India starts supporting insurgency in Tibet, China might support militancy in Indian North East.




i think china is already supporting militancy through burma.They are talking about invasion in arunachal,proxy wars is all in the past.

physically,it is impossible to access tibet and india wont take on china.that territory is of no importance to us.we should be more worried about nepal.


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## KS

Azad Kashmir said:


> As I said previously, a solution between India/Pakistan without acknowledging the desires of the Kashmiri community would lead to a renewed Armed Struggles and Freedom Movement, one that would perhaps be much larger than the current one and would discredit Pakistan/India on the world stage. Something neither want.



See...i dont want to sound utopian to soothe some ones ego.

The fact of the matter is once India and Pakistan agree to certain solutions,the Kashmiri Muslim aspirations mean squat to both of them.

The UN resolutions that you people consistently harp on does not provide you the option of independence - either your wagon is hitched to India or to Pakistan.Simple.




Azad Kashmir said:


> What proof do you have of Kashmir becoming another Afghanistan? *The cultural and religious set is different in Kashmir than the one in Afghanistan*. Furthermore, as is the case with every developing nation, surrounding countries and superpowers vy for influence. *I don't think Pakistan would be financially capable to afford an offensive war *with any nation for the next 10 years or so, and the relationship Kashmiris and Pakistanis have would further complicate a possible war. *Neither do China or India need the critizism of invading a much smaller nation.*



I ll answer point by point.

1) Geelani had already on many time reiterated that Sharia will be imposed in Kashmir ,if at all it becomes independent and Islam will be the way of life of the people.So what that basically means is persecution of minorities.Going by past records that is very very possible.

2) Yes pakistan do not have the financial muscle to go on *direct* offensive wars,thats why they have practised covert,infiltration attempts till this time.And they will continue to do so.
*Face it - Pakistan wants the whole of Kashmir to itself.Rest all the slogans of "We support Kashmiri aspirations" is all hogwash.*

3)And there again is the covert attempts to influence the regime which all countries can/will play.

So there is more chance of Kashmir becoming "Chota" Afghanistan than it becoming a modern day Shangri-La.

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## KS

Urbanized Greyhound said:


> *The U.S the world's oldest democracy decided this point about secessionist tendencies in a democracy long ago in their civil war , *



Exactly..and these people ask for the help of US in promoting a secession. Irony..I must say.

Also,



> The Whole is always greater than the sum of it's parts - Aristotle


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## Fighter488

By E Jayakrishnan, India Syndicate, 27/10/2010

*Shattering some myths on Kashmir​*
*Arundhati Roy says Kashmir was never a part of India. We look at why she is wrong & why Indias position is not as vulnerable as it is portrayed to be *

*Myth I*

*Kashmir has never been an integral part of India: Arundhati Roy*
*The Story*

At the time of Indian independence, none of the princely states  Hyderabad, Gwalior, Mysore, Baroda and Kashmir, to name a few  were part of India. They were called princely states  quasi-sovereign states ruled by the Indian princes under the "suzerainty" of the British. There were as many as 568 states in India when the British decided to leave India.

In 1947, under the Mountbatten Plan, they were given two options  either affiliate with India or with Pakistan. Though most of the princely states thirsted for freedom, that option was closed at the insistence of the Congress party. Though the choice of which entity to join was left to the rulers of the princely states, it was largely understood that the religious denomination of the majority of the citizens and geographical contiguities of the states would be the preponderant determining criteria.

Kashmir fulfilled both these paramount criteria to join Pakistan  geographical contiguity with the newly-formed state and religious domination of the majority of its citizens.

However, there was a problem: The Hindu ruler of Kashmir Maharaja Hari Singh wanted something which was not on the table  azaadi, or freedom from both India and Pakistan. He wanted Kashmir to remain independent. In spite of entreaties from various quarters including from the Governor General of India, Loius Mountbatten, the Maharaja continued to dither and remained non-committal. And the situation reached a stalemate.

Jinnah and Pakistan perceived this intransigence of the Maharaja to be a clever ploy by India and Mountbatten to pluck Kashmir surreptiously from Pakistan's grasp. So, in an operation that today can be seen as a precursor of the Kargil Operation, Pakistan launched a military invasion of Kashmir on October 22, 1947.

Pashtun tribals and irregulars, morally and logistically supported by the Pakistan army, were sent in to force the Maharaja to accede to Pakistan. The invaders reached the outskirts of Srinagar, the capital. And threatened to besiege the city.

A frightened and panick-stricken Maharaja radioed Delhi for military help. The Indian leadership argued that it would not be legally possible to send in the Indian Army unless Kashmir acceded to India formally. After another bout of resistance, the Maharaja finally yielded and Mountbatten's aide V P Menon was sent to Srinagar to secure his signature on the Instrument of Accession. Once signed (on 26 October 1947), the Indian Army was airlifted to Srinagar and the Pakistani invaders were beaten back, but not before they controlled about one-third of Kashmir.

*The Reality:*

As soon as the Maharaja signed the Instrument of Accession, Kashmir's accession to India was complete in the legal and formal sense  the same Instrument of Accession that was signed by more than 500 other princely states. That is a fact of history, which cannot be disputed without stretching the truth. It's there is black and white. In fact, it can be argued that it was Pakistan's folly of invading Kashmir, overplaying its hand, which sowed the seeds of the Kashmir imbroglio.




File photo of Jawaharlal Nehru with Sheikh Abdullah. When the irregulars from Pakistan invaded India on October 22, 1947, Prime Minister Nehru went to the UN in good faith to call on the world body to intervene and ensure that Pakistan pull back its troops. Based on the Indian complaint and the counter-arguments of Pakistan, the UN Security Council called for not only an immediate ceasefire, but also a plebiscite to determine the wishes of the Kashmiris.

*Myth II*

*India refuses to uphold the UN-mandated plebiscite that gives the right of self-determination to the Kashmiri people: Pakistan*

*The Story*

When the irregulars from Pakistan invaded India on October 22, 1947, Prime Minister Nehru went to the UN in good faith to call on the world body to intervene and ensure that Pakistan pull back its troops. Based on the Indian complaint and the counter-arguments of Pakistan, the UN Security Council called for not only an immediate ceasefire, but also a plebiscite to determine the wishes of the Kashmiris.

Ignoring the advice of his Home Minister Sardar Patel and Indian Army commanders that India should not agree to a ceasefire before the area captured by the invaders was reclaimed, Nehru went ahead and not only ordered an immediate ceasefire but also agreed in principle to the plebiscite  a promise that has not been kept.

*The Reality*

This is the instance used to castigate India for not only breaking the spirit of the UN resolution but also ignoring the legitimate aspirations of the Kashmiri people.

But just look at what UN Resolution 38 of 17 January 1948 actually says about the run-up to the plebiscite 

"The Government of Pakistan should undertake to use its best endeavours: To secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purposes of fighting, and to prevent any intrusion into the State of such elements and any furnishing of material aid to those fighting in the State".

Please read that again.

The much-bandied resolution, used to whip India with by the critics, clearly states that Pakistan will "withdraw" all "Pakistani nationals" and "tribesmen" who infiltrated on October 22, 1947 from the soil of the whole of Jammu and Kashmir as it existed then, without exception. This was the UN resolution's 'first condition' for the beginning of the process towards the plebiscite.

Has that condition been fulfilled by Pakistan? Has the land 'occupied' by the Pakistanis and the tribesmen in 1947 been vacated? Isn't the reality that Pakistan occupied and continues to occupy more than one-third of the territory of Kashmir?

As a way to fulfill the mandate and hold the plebiscite, will Pakistan be willing to vacate *** now, 63 years after the resolution? The answer is written on the wall.

For all intents and purposes the UN resolution on Kashmir is as good as dead.

No wonder then that the wily but pragmatic General Musharraf gave up the usual Pakistani harping on self-determination in Kashmir for a more practical and doable out-of-the-box solution, which unfortunately is being disowned by the present Pakistani government.




File photo of Pandit Nehru during his Kashmir visit in 1947. Ignoring the advise of his Home Minister, Sardar Patel, and Indian Army commanders that India should not agree to a ceasefire before the area captured by the invaders was reclaimed, Nehru went ahead and not only ordered an immediate ceasefire but also agreed in principle to the plebiscite, a promise that has not been kept.


*Myth III*
*
Pakistan has always stood by Kashmir, as against the brutality of the Indian security forces in the Indian side of Kashmir: Pakistan

Pakistan in Kashmir*

*a)* Pakistan has carved out the Northern Areas (now called Gilgit-Baltistan, almost 72,971 Sq km) from Kashmir into a separate administrative and political unit. This area, which was part of the undivided Kashmir at the time of independence, has been 'annexed' by Pakistan, as it were, and separated from Kashmir.

*b)* In 1963, Pakistan illegally ceded 5,800 sq km in the Trans-Karakoram Tract to China. The Tract was part of the original state of Jammu and Kashmir.

*c)* Pakistan actively encourages "other people" to settle in *** and have even allowed the Chinese a huge presence in Gilgit-Baltistan, ostensibly for developing the infrastructure of the region.

*In contrast:*

*a)* Territorially, the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir is the same entity that existed in 1947, except for the portions gobbled-up by Pakistan/China.

*b)* The Freedom House Report, 2010, on the level of 'freedom' in *** characterised it as "not free', while the Indian side of Kashmir was defined as "partly free".

*c)* No non-Kashmiri can buy as much as an inch of land in the state of Jammu & Kashmir. There has been no attempt by India to change the demographics or the state's ethnic character. The only demographic change that has happened in the state has been the "ethnic cleansing" of the Kashmiri pundits from the Valley. A mass exodus which has largely been ignored by the media and the powers-that-be.

Therefore, there is nothing much really that India has to feel defensive about. Whatever Arundhati Roy or others may put out on the air. 

Source: India Syndicate
Shattering some myths on Kashmir -  National News ? News ? MSN India

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## Fighter488

I think Maharaja Hari Singh was a Sikh not a Hindu, as stated in the article.

Am I right?

Fighter


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## KS

Nah...*<cynic mode on>* this thread will be closed *<cynic mode off>*





Fighter488 said:


> I think Maharaja Hari Singh was a Sikh not a Hindu, as stated in the article.
> Am I right?
> 
> Fighter



I guess he was a Dogra Hindu.

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## roach

Brilliant article, very well-written. Don't expect it to be up too long, though.


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## HAK




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## KALKI

Thanks fighter for the brilliant and succinctly precise article.

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## SpArK

Brilliant article.. could use as a reference if the thread is not deleted soon.

Waiting for trolls now.


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## somebozo

> a) Pakistan has carved out the Northern Areas (now called Gilgit-Baltistan, almost 72,971 Sq km) from Kashmir into a separate administrative and political unit. This area, which was part of the undivided Kashmir at the time of independence, has been 'annexed' by Pakistan, as it were, and separated from Kashmir.



The maharaja never controlled the whole of disputed area which India claims today. Indian claim extends up till northern Pakistan in a cunning move to have a border with Afghanistan and hence a direct route to central Asia. These are the same areas where Nehru was stoned for advocating union with India so how can they be advocated at part of india today?? Lies have no grounds!

Secondly, being a muslim majority state, it was logically to accede Pakistan.



> b) In 1963, Pakistan illegally ceded 5,800 sq km in the Trans-Karakoram Tract to China. The Tract was part of the original state of Jammu and Kashmir.


Pakistan did not accede anything, the map already denoted it Chinese territory and China already controlled the territory. Pakistan simple recognized the Chinese sovereignty over the land and demarcated permanent border. Guaranteeing our own security and shutting down potential front of future conflict.



> c) Pakistan actively encourages "other people" to settle in *** and have even allowed the Chinese a huge presence in Gilgit-Baltistan, ostensibly for developing the infrastructure of the region.


Pakistan does not consider Kashmir and Kashmirs as Pakistani. They have separate flag, passports and political system. A Pakistan cannot buy lands or run business in Kashmir. A Kashmir identity holder doing business in mainland Pakistan is treated under different law. But due to years of intermingled family ties these differences are easily run over as people find work around. Does not mean GoP is officially over running Kashmir with population displacement. If Kashmir was that easy and free to buy land and settle, the whole of Pakistani wealthy brass would have owned estates there and GoP would have turned it into one massive tourist haven. Heck you even need a pass from local government to go on a hiking trip in AJK.



> b) The Freedom House Report, 2010, on the level of 'freedom' in *** characterised it as "not free', while the Indian side of Kashmir was defined as "partly free".



An area guarded by 700K armed personals and rife with violence, dissapearene, murder and stone pelting cannot be described as peaceful by sane person. Shameful is it that after killing over a 100 innocent Kashmiris, the indians have balls to come out next week and declare victory over terrorist killing..shameful and cowardly. Freedom house is definitely on crack that too of cheapest grade.



> c) No non-Kashmiri can buy as much as an inch of land in the state of Jammu & Kashmir. There has been no attempt by India to change the demographics or the state's ethnic character. The only demographic change that has happened in the state has been the "ethnic cleansing" of the Kashmiri pundits from the Valley. A mass exodus which has largely been ignored by the media and the powers-that-be.


And exactly this is what is being enforced in pakistan as well...whats a big deal.. India has always maintained "kashmir belongs to all indians" and in up in arms with systematic forced "indianization" of Kashmiris at the expense of eroding their national identity. Exactly what the Kashmiris are fighting for. The day kashmir accede to India, whole of brahmin pundits will be up in arms for grabbing premium properties of the valley for some good tourism business. The explusion of pundits happend because they were the most hardcore advocates of Indian union running contrary to wishes of Kashmiri people and would have served the purpose of hindu puppet mouth piece. This alone should express the opinion of Kashmiri people in regards to their identity.


> As soon as the Maharaja signed the Instrument of Accession, Kashmir's accession to India was complete in the legal and formal sense &#8212;


Well and so was accession of Junagarth!

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## Omar1984

New Delhi: China remains adamant and will continue to issue stapled visas to Indians living in Kashmir. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is expected to share his concerns on China's stance when he meets Chinese premier Wen Jiabao on the sidelines of the East Asia Summit later this week.

India suspended military exchanges with China after it issued a stapled visa to Northern Army Commander Lt Gen BS Jaswal in July

But Beijing provoked New Delhi once again by saying it will not relent on the issue of stapled visas to Indians from Kashmir.

"Though China has friendly relations with India, its policy towards the stapled visas for residents of Kashmir remained unchanged," said Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Ma Zhaoxu.


The war of words over the contentious issue came three days ahead of a meeting between Singh and Wen on the sidelines of East Asia Summit in Hanoi.

The practice of issuing stapled visas, which amounts to questioning Jammu and Kashmir's accession with India, was started by China about two years ago.

India has already made it clear to China that the defence exchanges will remain on "pause" till Beijing reverts to its long-held position on Jammu and Kashmir.


China to continue with stapled visas for Kashmir - India News - IBNLive


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## third eye

somebozo said:


> Pakistan did not accede anything, the map already denoted it Chinese territory and China already controlled the territory. Pakistan simple recognized the Chinese sovereignty over the land and demarcated permanent border. Guaranteeing our own security and shutting down potential front of future conflict.



Kashmir: Legal Documents

The above link is worth a visit.

This subject has been dealt here

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...-sino-pakistan-frontier-agreement-1963-a.html

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## Areesh

Somethings are more important than so called trade and $$ and that thing is strategic superiority and border disputes. It is better that Indians also realize this. 

Thanks China.

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## KALKI

Areesh said:


> Somethings are more important than so called trade and $$ and that thing is strategic superiority and border disputes. It is better that Indians also realize this.
> 
> Thanks China.



Where was this importance before last two years or so when one fine day China suddenly decided to issue stapled visas?


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## somebozo

Every time Indians talk about beating China they get a fresh "Made in China" needle up their buxoms and crying starts once again. Ohh and its better to be quiet right now. 15000 Chinese engineers are teaching Indian building vital industries and infrastructure. These might be PLA spies as well which will take GPS co-ordinates of every important project. Then viola..something bigger than needle my pierce their bums!



> India has already made it clear to China that the defence exchanges will remain on "pause" till Beijing reverts to its long-held position on Jammu and Kashmir.


Ohh the Chinese are soo desperate to demonstrate their new J-10 to India they will die if they dont get a military exchange with India! The Asian tiger!!! (sarcasm)


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## Areesh

iRobot said:


> Where was this importance before last two years or so when one fine day China suddenly decided to issue stapled visas?



It was always there. Overtly or covertly.


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## RobbieS

Fighter488 said:


> I think Maharaja Hari Singh was a Sikh not a Hindu, as stated in the article.
> 
> Am I right?
> 
> Fighter



Hari Singh's forefathers were Dogra Sikh converts and Generals in Ranjit Singh's army. They began ruling their governorship of Kashmir as an independent kingdom after the Sikh Empire disintegrated. Somewhere between then and now, they converted back to Hinduism.


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## StingRoy

The Chinese by giving stapled visas are essentially denying the Kashmiris from traveling into China since the MEA and customs officials have already declared that stapled visas are not a valid travel document. 
China might as well refuse visas to the Kashmiris... it will essentially be the same.

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## Urbanized Greyhound

Areesh said:


> Somethings are more important than so called trade and $$ and that thing is strategic superiority and border disputes. It is better that Indians also realize this.
> 
> Thanks China.



and somethings are more important than so called trade and $$ and good relations and that thing is Territorial integrity for Indians.It would be better that the Chinese also realize this or rather openly acknowledge that they have realized this instead of pretending......


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## nomi007

well done china


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## Areesh

Urbanized Greyhound said:


> and somethings are more important than so called trade and $$ and good relations and that thing is Territorial integrity for Indians.It would be better that the Chinese also realize this or rather openly acknowledge that they have realized this instead of pretending......



They do care about India's integrity if it isn't about the disputed territories like IOK.


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## roach

somebozo said:


> Every time Indians talk about beating China they get a fresh "Made in China" needle up their buxoms and crying starts once again. Ohh and its better to be quiet right now. 15000 Chinese engineers are teaching Indian building vital industries and infrastructure. These might be PLA spies as well which will take GPS co-ordinates of every important project. Then viola..something bigger than needle my pierce their bums!
> 
> 
> Ohh the Chinese are soo desperate to demonstrate their new J-10 to India they will die if they dont get a military exchange with India! The Asian tiger!!! (sarcasm)



So the Great Game continues. 

My Pakistani friends should realize by now that J&K is <*earth-shatteringly*> important, strategically speaking, to India, China and Pakistan. Let's forget the crocodile tears for 'Kashmiri Brethren' for just a moment, and wake up to the fact that there are always going to be non-Kashmiri army Boots in that region. 
Anyone who believes that that place is going to be a DMZ anytime in the future needs a serious reality check.

Meanwhile, the Pakistani obsession with Kashmir continues to their own detriment. No skin off India's back, really-in the big picture, Kashmir is a mere irritant. India and China progress, Pakistan regresses.....but looks like China has many new loyal mouthpieces willing to bend over, aaaaaaaanytime.

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## third eye

RobbieS said:


> Hari Singh's forefathers were Dogra Sikh converts and Generals in Ranjit Singh's army. They began ruling their governorship of Kashmir as an independent kingdom after the Sikh Empire disintegrated. Somewhere between then and now, they converted back to Hinduism.



The Royal House of Jammu and Kashmir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Royal family of J&K belonged to the Jamwal clan of Rajputs.


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## Awesome

Fighter488 said:


> By E Jayakrishnan, India Syndicate, 27/10/2010
> 
> *Shattering some myths on Kashmir​*
> *Arundhati Roy says Kashmir was never a part of India. We look at why she is wrong & why Indias position is not as vulnerable as it is portrayed to be *
> 
> *Myth I*
> 
> *Kashmir has never been an integral part of India: Arundhati Roy*
> *The Story*
> 
> At the time of Indian independence, none of the princely states  Hyderabad, Gwalior, Mysore, Baroda and Kashmir, to name a few  were part of India. They were called princely states  quasi-sovereign states ruled by the Indian princes under the "suzerainty" of the British. There were as many as 568 states in India when the British decided to leave India.
> 
> In 1947, under the Mountbatten Plan, they were given two options  either affiliate with India or with Pakistan. Though most of the princely states thirsted for freedom, that option was closed at the insistence of the Congress party. Though the choice of which entity to join was left to the rulers of the princely states, it was largely understood that the religious denomination of the majority of the citizens and geographical contiguities of the states would be the preponderant determining criteria.
> 
> Kashmir fulfilled both these paramount criteria to join Pakistan  geographical contiguity with the newly-formed state and religious domination of the majority of its citizens.
> 
> However, there was a problem: The Hindu ruler of Kashmir Maharaja Hari Singh wanted something which was not on the table  azaadi, or freedom from both India and Pakistan. He wanted Kashmir to remain independent. In spite of entreaties from various quarters including from the Governor General of India, Loius Mountbatten, the Maharaja continued to dither and remained non-committal. And the situation reached a stalemate.
> 
> Jinnah and Pakistan perceived this intransigence of the Maharaja to be a clever ploy by India and Mountbatten to pluck Kashmir surreptiously from Pakistan's grasp. So, in an operation that today can be seen as a precursor of the Kargil Operation, Pakistan launched a military invasion of Kashmir on October 22, 1947.
> 
> Pashtun tribals and irregulars, morally and logistically supported by the Pakistan army, were sent in to force the Maharaja to accede to Pakistan. The invaders reached the outskirts of Srinagar, the capital. And threatened to besiege the city.
> 
> A frightened and panick-stricken Maharaja radioed Delhi for military help. The Indian leadership argued that it would not be legally possible to send in the Indian Army unless Kashmir acceded to India formally. After another bout of resistance, the Maharaja finally yielded and Mountbatten's aide V P Menon was sent to Srinagar to secure his signature on the Instrument of Accession. Once signed (on 26 October 1947), the Indian Army was airlifted to Srinagar and the Pakistani invaders were beaten back, but not before they controlled about one-third of Kashmir.
> 
> *The Reality:*
> 
> As soon as the Maharaja signed the Instrument of Accession, Kashmir's accession to India was complete in the legal and formal sense  the same Instrument of Accession that was signed by more than 500 other princely states. That is a fact of history, which cannot be disputed without stretching the truth. It's there is black and white. In fact, it can be argued that it was Pakistan's folly of invading Kashmir, overplaying its hand, which sowed the seeds of the Kashmir imbroglio.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> File photo of Jawaharlal Nehru with Sheikh Abdullah. When the irregulars from Pakistan invaded India on October 22, 1947, Prime Minister Nehru went to the UN in good faith to call on the world body to intervene and ensure that Pakistan pull back its troops. Based on the Indian complaint and the counter-arguments of Pakistan, the UN Security Council called for not only an immediate ceasefire, but also a plebiscite to determine the wishes of the Kashmiris.
> 
> *Myth II*
> 
> *India refuses to uphold the UN-mandated plebiscite that gives the right of self-determination to the Kashmiri people: Pakistan*
> 
> *The Story*
> 
> When the irregulars from Pakistan invaded India on October 22, 1947, Prime Minister Nehru went to the UN in good faith to call on the world body to intervene and ensure that Pakistan pull back its troops. Based on the Indian complaint and the counter-arguments of Pakistan, the UN Security Council called for not only an immediate ceasefire, but also a plebiscite to determine the wishes of the Kashmiris.
> 
> Ignoring the advice of his Home Minister Sardar Patel and Indian Army commanders that India should not agree to a ceasefire before the area captured by the invaders was reclaimed, Nehru went ahead and not only ordered an immediate ceasefire but also agreed in principle to the plebiscite  a promise that has not been kept.
> 
> *The Reality*
> 
> This is the instance used to castigate India for not only breaking the spirit of the UN resolution but also ignoring the legitimate aspirations of the Kashmiri people.
> 
> But just look at what UN Resolution 38 of 17 January 1948 actually says about the run-up to the plebiscite 
> 
> "The Government of Pakistan should undertake to use its best endeavours: To secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purposes of fighting, and to prevent any intrusion into the State of such elements and any furnishing of material aid to those fighting in the State".
> 
> Please read that again.
> 
> The much-bandied resolution, used to whip India with by the critics, clearly states that Pakistan will "withdraw" all "Pakistani nationals" and "tribesmen" who infiltrated on October 22, 1947 from the soil of the whole of Jammu and Kashmir as it existed then, without exception. This was the UN resolution's 'first condition' for the beginning of the process towards the plebiscite.
> 
> Has that condition been fulfilled by Pakistan? Has the land 'occupied' by the Pakistanis and the tribesmen in 1947 been vacated? Isn't the reality that Pakistan occupied and continues to occupy more than one-third of the territory of Kashmir?
> 
> As a way to fulfill the mandate and hold the plebiscite, will Pakistan be willing to vacate *** now, 63 years after the resolution? The answer is written on the wall.
> 
> For all intents and purposes the UN resolution on Kashmir is as good as dead.
> 
> No wonder then that the wily but pragmatic General Musharraf gave up the usual Pakistani harping on self-determination in Kashmir for a more practical and doable out-of-the-box solution, which unfortunately is being disowned by the present Pakistani government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> File photo of Pandit Nehru during his Kashmir visit in 1947. Ignoring the advise of his Home Minister, Sardar Patel, and Indian Army commanders that India should not agree to a ceasefire before the area captured by the invaders was reclaimed, Nehru went ahead and not only ordered an immediate ceasefire but also agreed in principle to the plebiscite, a promise that has not been kept.
> 
> 
> *Myth III*
> *
> Pakistan has always stood by Kashmir, as against the brutality of the Indian security forces in the Indian side of Kashmir: Pakistan
> 
> Pakistan in Kashmir*
> 
> *a)* Pakistan has carved out the Northern Areas (now called Gilgit-Baltistan, almost 72,971 Sq km) from Kashmir into a separate administrative and political unit. This area, which was part of the undivided Kashmir at the time of independence, has been 'annexed' by Pakistan, as it were, and separated from Kashmir.
> 
> *b)* In 1963, Pakistan illegally ceded 5,800 sq km in the Trans-Karakoram Tract to China. The Tract was part of the original state of Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> *c)* Pakistan actively encourages "other people" to settle in *** and have even allowed the Chinese a huge presence in Gilgit-Baltistan, ostensibly for developing the infrastructure of the region.
> 
> *In contrast:*
> 
> *a)* Territorially, the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir is the same entity that existed in 1947, except for the portions gobbled-up by Pakistan/China.
> 
> *b)* The Freedom House Report, 2010, on the level of 'freedom' in *** characterised it as "not free', while the Indian side of Kashmir was defined as "partly free".
> 
> *c)* No non-Kashmiri can buy as much as an inch of land in the state of Jammu & Kashmir. There has been no attempt by India to change the demographics or the state's ethnic character. The only demographic change that has happened in the state has been the "ethnic cleansing" of the Kashmiri pundits from the Valley. A mass exodus which has largely been ignored by the media and the powers-that-be.
> 
> Therefore, there is nothing much really that India has to feel defensive about. Whatever Arundhati Roy or others may put out on the air.
> 
> Source: India Syndicate
> Shattering some myths on Kashmir - *National News ? News ? MSN India


Technical this n that articles are just for those who want bust the reality fact that Indian position on Kashmir is totally morally bankrupt.

They are not excusing that the Maharaja was going against the population's wish to accede to India. Did Pakistan drop the ball by not playing nice or did it manage to secure a huge chunk of Kashmir + Gilgit Baltistan. If we were left to Indian and Maharaja's niceties, even AJK citizens would be under Indian tyranny.

The FACTs are even more twisted on the 2nd part when Indians are thinking their amnesia is a contagious disease that would somehow eliminate all other UN resolutions and allow India to pick and choose the ones it likes. The UN resolution 98 clearly identifies that:




> 4. Urges the Governments of India and Pakistan to enter into immediate negotiations under the
> auspices of the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan in order to reach agreement on
> the specific number of forces to remain on each side of the cease-fire line at the end of the period of
> demilitarisation, this number to be between 3,000 and 6,000 armed forces remaining on the Pakistan
> side of the cease-fire line and between 12,000 and 18,000 armed forces remaining on the India side
> of the cease-line, as suggested by the United Nations Representative in his proposals of 16 July
> 1952, such specific numbers to be arrived at bearing in mind the principles or criteria contained in
> paragraph 7 of the United Nations Representative's proposal of 4 September 1952;



Thereby both India and Pakistan have to vacate Kashmir or at least minimize their troop presence down to the few thousands. Pakistan is ready to do this, India is not. Please don't give any more BS on this.

Pakistan's formation of GB is administrative and when and if India comes to the table on the UN resolutions everything else would come onto the table as well. There is no carving out - Kashmir is not a turkey and Indians need to change their mentality about it.

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## ajtr

who cares?????indians are always one step ahead.....they have govt. of free tibet in exile in dharamshala.

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## riju78

Can someone explain why there was no freedom fight for 40 odd years after independence


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## SurvivoR

Mwahahahaha a Slap that too of a back hand on india's fugly face.

Shows how China responds to blackmailing threats from a blackmailing nation.


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## RobbieS

third eye said:


> The Royal House of Jammu and Kashmir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> The Royal family of J&K belonged to the Jamwal clan of Rajputs.



You are correct as well. Dogras are Rajputs.


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## Areesh

Fighter488 said:


> I think Maharaja Hari Singh was a Sikh not a Hindu, as stated in the article.
> 
> Am I right?
> 
> Fighter




He was a *hindu *ruler of a *muslim *majority state.


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## Omar1984

*October 27 described as blackest day in Kashmir history
​*

Srinagar, October 27 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, pro-freedom parties including Jammu and Kashmir Peoples League, Muslim Khawateen Markaz Jammu and Kashmir, Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front-R, Jammu and Kashmir Peoples Freedom League and Jammu and Kashmir Democratic Political Movement have described October 27 as the blackest day in the history of Jammu and Kashmir, saying that it was on October 27 in 1947 when Indian troops invaded Kashmir in clear violation of the partition plan of the Sub-continent and against the Kashmiris&#8217; aspirations.

The Acting President of Jammu and Kashmir Peoples League, Mukhtar Ahmad Waza in a statement issued in Srinagar said that India could not suppress the ongoing indigenous liberation movement through use of brute force. He said that the people of the occupied territory had rendered unprecedented sacrifices for securing right to self-determination and they would continue their struggle till complete success.

On the other hand, the Chairperson of Muslim Khawateen Markaz Jammu and Kashmir, Yasmeen Raja in a statement said that India had forcibly occupied Jammu and Kashmir against the will of Kashmiri people, adding that the people of Kashmir would never accept to live under the bondage of India. She urged India to give up its rigid stance on Kashmir and give Kashmiris their birthright to self-determination.

The JKLF-R Chairman, Farooq Ahmad Dar and Senior Vice Chairman, Javed Ahmad Mir in their joint statements issued in Srinagar said that India had invaded Jammu and Kashmir on October 27, 1947 snatching right to self-determination from Kashmiris. They said that since then India had killed hundreds of thousands Kashmiris and deprived them of their basic rights.

The JKPFL Chairman, Muhammad Farooq Rehmani in a statement said that the then Indian Prime Minister, Jawahar Lal Nehru had himself taken the Kashmir dispute to the United Nations and announced that Kashmiris themselves would decide their future through an impartial referendum but the commitment yet to be fulfilled.

The spokesman of Jammu and Kashmir Democratic Political Movement in a statement said that India couldn&#8217;t prevent the people of Kashmir from their just struggle. He also called upon the people to follow the protest programme of the forum patronised by veteran Kashmiris Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Gilani. &#187;

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## roach

Asim Aquil said:


> Technical this n that articles are just for those who want bust the reality fact that Indian position on Kashmir is totally morally bankrupt.
> 
> They are not excusing that the Maharaja was going against the population's wish to accede to India. Did Pakistan drop the ball by not playing nice or did it manage to secure a huge chunk of Kashmir + Gilgit Baltistan. If we were left to Indian and Maharaja's niceties, even AJK citizens would be under Indian tyranny.
> 
> The FACTs are even more twisted on the 2nd part when Indians are thinking their amnesia is a contagious disease that would somehow eliminate all other UN resolutions and allow India to pick and choose the ones it likes. The UN resolution 98 clearly identifies that:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thereby both India and Pakistan have to vacate Kashmir or at least minimize their troop presence down to the few thousands. Pakistan is ready to do this, India is not. Please don't give any more BS on this.
> 
> Pakistan's formation of GB is administrative and when and if India comes to the table on the UN resolutions everything else would come onto the table as well. There is no carving out - Kashmir is not a turkey and Indians need to change their mentality about it.



Both sides have violated the UN resolutions in every which way possible. Moreover, the UN has officially washed it's hand of this mess.

Moreover, as you said, J&K is no turkey. There are Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims in J&K who will opt for independence/alignment with Pakistan only when hell freezes over. So if you say the state is indivisible, you are advocating Partition-3 based on the two-nation theory YET again.

India is getting stronger financially, culturally and diplomatically. It's going to get harder and harder and harder each day to avenge 1971.

Yeh sab Kashmir Washmir chodiye, PDF ke General sahib, aur apne watan ko sambhaliye.

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## third eye

Areesh said:


> He was a *hindu *ruler of a *muslim *majority state.



Hari Singh was a Hindu ruler of the state of J&K which had Hindus , Muslims & Buddhists.

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## Omar1984

*Kashmiris to observe Black Day Today
​*

SRINAGAR (IHK): Kashmiris on both sides of the Line of Control and all across the world will observe today, Wednesday - the 27th October - as Black Day to convey to the international community that despite Indian state terrorism they reject its illegal occupation of Jammu and Kashmir, reports KMS. 

It was on October 27 in 1947 when Indian troops invaded Kashmir in total disregard to the partition plan of the Sub-continent and against the Kashmiris&#8217; aspirations.

Call for the observance of the Black Day has been given by the All Parties Hurriyet Conference ChairmanMirwaiz Umar Farooq and veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader Syed Ali Gilani. 

The day will be marked with total shutdown in occupied Kashmir and a march towards the United Nations Observers&#8217; Office in Srinagar to remind the World Body that it had failed to implement its resolutions on Kashmir. Rallies in support of Kashmiris&#8217; liberation struggle will be held in Muzaffarabad and in world capitals.

In a bid to prevent the march, today, the occupation authorities have placed Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Syed Ali Gilani under house arrest. Indian police have started a crackdown against the APHC activists arresting several of them. The police raided the Mirwaiz Manzil at Rajouri Kadal and took into custody Professor Habibullah Jeelani, the Special Secretary to the Mirwaiz.

The puppet administration imposed curfew and other restrictions in Srinagar, today, to prevent people from conducting a march towards Martyrs&#8217; Graveyard at Eidgah, call for which was given by Syed Ali Gilani as part of the Quit Kashmir Movement.

A report from occupied Jammu says; the Jammu and Kashmir Peoples Movement (JKPM), a constituent of the All Parties Hurriyet Conference, has urged the Kashmiri people to observe tomorrow, October 27, as Black Day.

APHC leader and the JKPM Chairman, Ghulam Ahmed Mir in a statement issued in Jammu said that October 27 was the blackest day in the history of Jammu and Kashmir when India landed its forces there in 1947 and the illegal occupation continued till date.

&#8220;Kashmiris have now entered into the do or die battle and they will make every sacrifice to take the ongoing movement to its logical conclusion,&#8221; he said. The JKPM Chairman asked the people to hoist black flags on private and public buildings to protest against the illegal Indian occupation of the territory.

APHC leader and Acting Chairman of Jammu Kashmir Peoples League, Mukhtar Ahmad Waza has said that the people of Kashmir will observe October 27 as black day as the Indian troops invaded Jammu and Kashmir on the day in 1947.

Addressing a public gathering at Anchidura in Islamabad he asked the people to march towards the UN Office at Sonawar on the day. He appealed to the international community to impress upon India to settle the Kashmir dispute according to the Kashmiris&#8217; aspirations.

On the other hand, speakers at a seminar in Srinagar, organized by the High Court Bar Association of the occupied territory, called for an early resolution of the Kashmir dispute in accordance with the Kashmiris&#8217; aspirations. 

On the occasion, prominent human rights activist of India, Gautam Navlakha, termed the exercise of the right of self-determination as the only way to resolve the vexed dispute. Other speakers included Zaffar Ahmed Shah, Goutam Modi and Professor Sheikh Showkat Hussain.

Prominent Indian author, Arundhati Roy in a statement in Srinagar while reacting to the reports about her possible arrest by Indian authorities on her assertions on Kashmir reiterated that she would continue to speak for justice to the people of Kashmir, who were living under one of most brutal military occupations of the world. 

Crackdown against APHC 

In a bid to prevent a march towards the United Nations Observers&#8217; Office in Srinagar on Wednesday, Indian police have started a crackdown against the workers of the All Parties Hurriyet Conference arresting several of them.

The arrests were made by the police during raids in different areas of Srinagar. The police conducted a raid on Mirwaiz Manzil at Rajouri Kadal and took into custody Professor Habibullah Jeelani, the Special Secretary to the APHC Chairman, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq.

The APHC spokesman in a statement strongly condemned the police action. &#8220;Many of the APHC workers have been arrested so far. Police have seized a vehicle of the APHC and have arrested its driver also,&#8221; he added.

Pertinently, the APHC has called for a march towards the UN Observers&#8217; Office at Sonawar on Wednesday (October 27) to convey to the world that India continues to deny the Kashmiris their inalienable right to self-determination. It has also asked the people to observe the day as Black Day to protest against the landing of Indian troops in Jammu and Kashmir in 1947.

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## roach

Areesh said:


> He was a *hindu *ruler of a *muslim *majority state.



The same way that the Nizam of Hyderabad was a Muslim ruler of a Hindu-majority state

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## Awesome

roach said:


> Both sides have violated the UN resolutions in every which way possible. Moreover, the UN has officially washed it's hand of this mess.
> 
> Moreover, as you said, J&K is no turkey. There are Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims in J&K who will opt for independence/alignment with Pakistan only when hell freezes over. So if you say the state is indivisible, you are advocating Partition-3 based on the two-nation theory YET again.
> 
> India is getting stronger financially, culturally and diplomatically. It's going to get harder and harder and harder each day to avenge 1971.
> 
> Yeh sab Kashmir Washmir chodiye, PDF ke General sahib, aur apne watan ko sambhaliye.


I say everyone will opt for either Pakistan or Independence - none for India.

Have a plebiscite and find out!


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## Areesh

third eye said:


> Hari Singh was a Hindu ruler of the state of J&K which had Hindus , Muslims & Buddhists.



And muslims were the ones who were in majority in the state.



roach said:


> The same way that the Nizam of Hyderabad was a Muslim ruler of a Hindu-majority state



And Hyderabad is the part of India but it didn't apply to IOK.

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## ajtr

*Jammu celebrates Accession Day​*





*A sweet-maker decorates a 64-kg ladoo with dry fruits. Tribune photo: Anand Sharma*

Jammu stressed its integration with India by celebrating the 63rd anniversary of the Instrument of Accession Day with much pomp and show today. But, notably, the Congress stayed away from the celebrations with no function organised by it today. The National Flag was hoisted at about 40 places by political, religious, social and apolitical organisations. They also organised seminars, debates and functions to underline the accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India this day in 1947.

The day began with a massive rally by schoolchildren which began from Mubarak Mandi, passed through Pucca Danga, Panj tirthi, Shalamar Garden and various bazaars of the old city before culminating back there. Children carried placards and banners hailing the day as Vijay Diwas or Accession Day.

A senior Congress leader, wishing not to be identified, said there was no need to celebrate the day as there was no requirement to insist on the accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India. It is a fact and there was no need to insist on it, he said and added the party leadership took decisions in such matters.

Notable in the functions and processions was the active participation of women, who despite a fast on the occasion of Karva Chauth today, showed solidarity with the nation. Shakuntala, a woman activist of an organisation, said when soldiers could fight the enemy in extreme circumstances, they could at least walk a few kilometres on an empty stomach in service of the motherland.

Dineshwar Jamwal of the Duggar Vikas Manch, which made the 64-kg ladoo and later in the evening illuminated Mubarak Mandi with candles and torchlights, said they would make a 650-kg ladoo on the occasion next year.

The celebration idea began after anti-India speeches and statements coming from Srinagar directly questioned the states integrity with India. This is a reply from Jammu that we are an integral part of India, said Jamwal.

The 64-kg ladoo made by the Pehalwaan di Hatti was decorated with dry fruits, making a figure of 64. It was transported in an open auto-rickshaw.

Sat Abrol, owner of the Pehalwaan di Hatti, said five persons made the material for the ladoo. It was assembled and decorated in the auto-rickshaw only, where it was carefully placed on a silver foil.

The BJP had put banners in several parts of the old city, besides on chowks in the new city. The banners proclaimed celebrations of Accession Day. The Tricolour was hoisted at several places, as also at Shahidi Chowk. It organised the main function at RS Pura where all MLAs and senior leaders participated. State party president Shamsher Singh Manhas said the accession of the state was legal and final and the BJP would never let a further division of the country.

The Panun Kashmir hoisted the National Flag at the Dogra Chowk. Speakers, including Ajay Chrungoo, Chairman of the Panun Kashmir, said the accession restored the continuity of the state with the civilisation of India.

Another Panun Kashmir organisation led by Dr Agnishekhar organised a seminar today which coincided with the 335th Prayaan Divas of Pandit Kripa Ram Dutt. A seminar Conspiracy to Distort the Truth of Accession was addressed by Dr KK Pangotra, Dr Jeetinder Singh, BS Salathia, a former president of the Bar Association, Jammu.

The Panthers Party organised rallies and functions not only in Jammu but also in Leh, Poonch, Rajouri, Kishtwar, Doda, Ramban, Udhampur and Kathua.

Prof Bhim Singh, Chairman of the party, demanded the release of all political prisoners arrested under the Public Safety Act unconditionally on Accession Day. Maintaining that the accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India was full and final, the Jammu Bar Association celebrated the day on the court premises.

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## Omar1984

*Recalling the Black Day of Kashmir
​*

October 27, each year, is remembered as the Black Day across the length and breadth of Pakistan and the entire State of Jammu and Kashmir for the reason that on this inauspicious day the Indian occupational forces landed in Srinagar that started a chain reaction of events, which has continued to haunt the subcontinent to this very day. 

On this day, in 1947, the festering tragedy of Kashmir was born; an act of aggression that has consigned the prospects of normalising the Indo-Pak relations to the realm of perpetual animosity, which has already led to two wars, in addition to the Kargil skirmishes of 1999. 

Even when the partition of India and Pakistan had been formalised and announced on August 14, the princely State of Jammu and Kashmir - ruled by Maharaja Hari Singh - remained in a state of limbo. It was one of the 584 princely states, which - with the lapse of paramountcy of the British Crown in August - had to make the choice of acceding either to India or Pakistan. Kashmir&#8217;s predominantly Muslim population, their contiguity to Pakistan and the layout of major communication infrastructure made its accession to Pakistan a natural corollary of the unfolding events. However, given Nehru&#8217;s pathological fixation over Kashmir, strengthened by Lord Mountbatten&#8217;s machinations, this was not to be. 

The invasion of Kashmir was on the cards, even as the boundary between India and Pakistan was being carved out through an award by Sir Cyril Radcliffe. 

When the Boundary Award was announced its most controversial decision dealt with the awarding of the Gurdaspur district to India, despite its Muslim majority and contiguity to the Pakistani territory. It is now certain that Nehru by manipulating his intimate contacts with Lord Mountbatten contrived through the Boundary Award to provide a land route to India for its ultimate occupation of Kashmir. In an interview with the Daily Telegraph on February 1992, Radcliffe&#8217;s Secretary, Christopher Beaumont, confirmed that the Boundary Award was manipulated by Mountbatten at the behest of Nehru. Developing the Gurdaspur access enabled India to effectively link up with the Kashmir Valley through a land route and be able to support large-scale operations in the State of Jammu and Kashmir. 


Nehru now sought two politico-military objectives: First, to force the Maharaja to sign an instrument of accession and secondly to wrest Kashmir by force. 

The plan envisaged that if the situation threatened to spiral out of control, legal niceties could be set aside and troop landing could proceed regardless of other factors. As it was, the landing of the Indian forces in Srinagar on October 27, 1947, took place without the signing of any instrument of accession. On that fateful day, the State of Jammu and Kashmir existed in the same constitutional limbo of insecure independence that it had enjoyed since the partition of India, following the lapse of the British paramountcy.

As October progressed, the public unrest and communal strife paralysed the Maharaja&#8217;s administration. There was a rebellion in the state forces, which revolted against Hari Singh&#8217;s authority. More so, they were also joined by some pathan tribesmen voluntarily. The Indians started a propaganda campaign to un-nerve the Maharaja by projecting this local threat as a systematic invasion by the tribesmen from Pakistan along the Jhelum Valley Road. 

As the situation in Jammu and Kashmir deteriorated, Lord Mountbatten, as Governor General of India, called a meeting of the Defence Committee to assess the situation on October 25. The committee, under his chairmanship decided to immediately send V. P. Menon, along with senior army and air force commanders to land in Srinagar the same day, reconnoitre the ground situation and advise the Maharaja to abandon Srinagar for the safety of Jammu across the Banihal pass. 

Mountbatten also ordered the British Commander of the Indian forces to assemble a fleet of 10 transport aircraft for an airlift operation after 48 hours for landing troops in Srinagar. Menon&#8217;s visit of October 25 so unnerved the Maharaja that he packed all his valuables and left for Jammu by road in the morning of October 26, without signing any instrument of accession. Mountbatten chaired another meeting of the Defence Committee on October 26 and ordered the landing of the first battalion of the Sikh regiment in Srinagar on October 27, even though no evidence exists of any instrument of accession having been secured thus far. On the same day, at about 0900 hours, the Sikh regiment was airlifted from Gurgaon and landed at the deserted Srinagar Airport. 

The State of Pakistan, struggling to find its feet in its infancy, was stunned by the Indian aggression. So on October 27, Quaid-i-Azam asked General Douglas Gracey, acting Commander in Chief, to send the Pakistani troops to Kashmir. But the General refused, saying that he would need the approval of Field Marshal Claude Auchinleck, who held supreme command over the Indian and Pakistani forces. 

Auchinleck flew to Lahore on October 28 with the line that sending the Pakistan army into Kashmir would amount to a formal declaration of war and that if Pakistan went to war he would withdraw all the British officers serving in the Pak Army. It was many months after that Pakistan was able to respond militarily in Kashmir, and when the ceasefire occurred on January 1, 1949, the Kashmir issue stood internationalised, by no one other than Nehru, who himself sought to take the matter to the United Nations for resolution and promised to hold a plebiscite in Kashmir.

Thus, in the context of the Indo Pak relations, October 27 truly stands out as a &#8216;Black Day&#8217;, constituting the tragic benchmark that sealed all prospects of peace and prosperity in the subcontinent. Such a monumental crime, however, has extracted from India its price in flesh and blood. Sixty-three years might have passed since the aggression, yet the Indian Held Kashmir has known no peace and the demand for Azadi - loud and strong - is making it impossible for the Indian leadership and its puppets in Kashmir to know any peace.

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## Omar1984

*Curfew in Srinagar to scuttle separatist march*



SRINAGAR: Curfew was imposed in Srinagar and some major towns of Kashmir valley to scuttle a protest march called by separatists on Wednesday. 

"Curfew has been imposed in Srinagar city, Awantipora, Pattan, Palhalan, Kunzar, Sopore, Handwara, Kupwara and Kralpora towns as a preventive measure," a senior police officer said here. 

The officer, however, said the movement of students and officegoers was not being disallowed in Srinagar city besides facilitating the passage of patients and other emergencies. 

"The intention of the administration to impose curfew is not to inconvenience the common man. It is intended to prevent miscreants from creating a law and order situation," the officer said. 

*Both the separatist Hurriyat groups headed by hardline leader Syed Ali Geelani and Mirwaiz Umer Farooq appealed to people to march to the office of the UN Military Observers Group ( UNMOG) in uptown Sonwar area of summer capital Srinagar to protest the landing of the Indian Army in Kashmir on this day in 1947*. 


Shops, other businesses, public transport, banks and post offices remained closed in most parts of Srinagar city and other major towns of the valley Wednesday. 

Very little pedestrian and vehicular movement was seen on the city roads as police and Central Reserve Police Force ( CRPF) troopers were deployed in strength to maintain law and order. 

At least 110 people have been killed in Kashmir valley since the ongoing unrest started June 11. 


Curfew in Srinagar to scuttle separatist march - The Times of India

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## Omar1984

*Eight injured in clash in Kashmir,curfew clamped in some areas*


Eight persons on Wednesday were injured when stone-pelting protestors clashed with security forces in Bandipora district town of Kashmir Valley where curfew has been imposed in four districts to foil a march planned by the separatists to the United Nations office in Srinagar. Defying curfew restrictions, a group of protestors took to the roads on Wednesday morning in Bandipora district town, 50 kms from in Srinagar, officials said.

Police and other security forces used batons to chase the protestors away but the youth starting pelting stones at them.

Security forces lobbed tear smoke shells and fired Pump Action Guns to bring the situation under control, they said, adding five civilians and three policemen were injured in the clashes.

Authorities had this morning clamped curfew in Srinagar, Baramulla, Kupwara and Bandipora districts besides Awantipora town, in view of the march called by moderate faction of Hurrriyat to the office of the UN Military Observers' Group for India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP). The march is supported by the hardline faction headed by Syed Ali Shah Geelani.

A large number of security force personnel have been deployed across the city and other sensitive areas to prevent the separatists from taking out any rally.

Officials said several separatist leaders have been put under house arrest while over a dozen activists of Mirwaiz-led Hurriyat were taken into preventive custody on Tuesday night.

They also said that a large number of protestors had blocked the Srinagar-Baramulla National Highway in Palhalan area of Baramulla district on late Tuesday night.

Police fired tear smoke shells and warning shots to disperse the protestors, they said.

Meanwhile, normal life remained disrupted in the Valley on Wednesday in view of the strike call given by both factions of Hurriyat to protest the landing of Army in Kashmir on this day in 1947, a day after then Maharaja Hari Singh signed the instrument of accession with the Union of India.

Hurriyat has asked the people to observe the day as "black day".

Shops, business establishments and private offices remained closed on account of the strike.

Kashmir Valley has been in a grip of protests, strikes and curfew since June when a 17-year-old boy was killed by a tear smoke shell allegedly fired by police at Rajouri Kadal area of the city.

Eight injured in clash in Kashmir,curfew clamped in some areas - Hindustan Times

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## Omar1984

*Oct 27: Beginning of Kashmir agony
​*

October 27, 1947 has gone down in the history of Kashmir as one that laid the foundation of Kashmir dispute and a permanent state of animosity between two independent states of Pakistan and India. For the last six decades the day is distinguished as &#8216;Black Day&#8217; with symbolic street protests, strikes and seminars condemning the Indian military occupation of Kashmir. The Day thus signifies the commencement of an era that has become a harbinger for what we see today as the continued struggle of Kashmiri people for restoration of their separate identity. With faith in the cause, the painful day adds to the conviction of Kashmiris that their struggle would ultimately fructify and help the suppressed people of the state of Jammu and Kashmir in charting their own future. 

The day also reminds Kashmiris of the patience and perseverance of that penultimate day to build the whole edifice of their political position against the Indian autocratic rule in Kashmir. The people of Kashmir since that day continue sacrificing their lives for honour and dignity of their mother land with aspirations that one day, it will be free from the Indian tyranny which has provided no let up. On that painful day of 27 October of 1947, Personnel from the 1- Sikh Regiment of the Indian Army landed at Srinagar airport at 0900 in the morning. This was followed by a surge of more personnel from 2 and 13 field Regiments as part of India&#8217;s military aggression in Kashmir in defiance of the Partition of India Act under which Kashmir was to form part of Pakistan for it being a Muslim majority area. 

This painful day reminds one of the conspiracy hatched by the big wigs of Indian leadership and the British Governor General at that time to snatch the territory away from Muslims of Kashmir and deny the accession of their territory to the nascent state of Pakistan. The British Governor General chivalrously advised the Indian leadership mainly comprising Nehru, Gandhi and Patel to secure the accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India as soon as possible before rushing in troops in response to the Maharaja&#8217;s appeal for military assistance to meet the potent threat of tribal who had reached the state to help Kashmiris who had approached them and complained of brutal atrocities at the hands of Dogra regimes.

After Maharajas signatures on the instrument of aggression, the British Governor General signed it promptly exposing himself as being partisan to Indian designs. When Pakistan had protested on deployment of the Indian Army in Kashmir against the spirit of partition, Lord Mountbatten wrote a letter to Maharaja Hari Singh that, &#8220;It is my Government&#8217;s wish that as soon as law and order have been restored in Kashmir and her soil cleared of invaders, the question of State&#8217;s accession should be settled by a reference to the people.&#8221; Nehru in telegram to Liaquat Ali Khan on October 31, gave his solemn pledge: Our assurance that we shall withdraw our troops from Kashmir as soon as the peace and order are restored and leave the decision regarding the future of the state to the people of the state is not merely a promise to your government but also to the people of Kashmir and the world.&#8221; Based as it no doubt was on treachery and casuistry, Pakistan gave no credence to India&#8217;s plighted word and refused to recognize Kashmir&#8217;s fraudulent accession to India as being manifestly against the wishes of the people of state of Kashmir.

As the day approaches in this particular year the Kashmir valley is once again witnessing a renewed surge in the violence therein. Most of the time the valley has been under curfew since the middle of this year and the death toll has reached staggering three figures. The age old Indian stance that these protests and strikes are carried out with Pakistan backing does not find any more takers as the genuineness of this movement has been acknowledged by the central political figures in India itself. The security forces have started to eliminate the protestors as the number of those killed swells by day. The people of Kashmir continue to suffer under the oppressive Indian occupation from the last six decades. Their agony goes on. The United Nations has failed to ensure that its resolutions are implemented. The repeated dialogue processes with the Kashmiri leadership have been an exercise to hoodwink the world over the plight of Kashmiris. 

The third party involvement to give the Kashmiris their due rights of self determination and decide their own future has been requested by the Kashmiri leadership time and again from America and the West but their cries find no avail. One really cannot divine how much longer the Kashmiris are going to suffer. Hopefully, their valiant struggle and matchless sacrifices in blood in pursuit of their rights against the Indian oppression will some day end in success, It is time that the World&#8217;s conscience wakes up and obliges India to let the people of Kashmir freely exercise their inalienable right to self determination. India knows well that it can never subjugate the Kashmiris through the force of violence forever and sooner rather than later, it has to solve the Kashmir issue.

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## Omar1984

*Curfew restrictions imposed in occupied Kashmir ​*

Mirwaiz, Gilani, others placed under house arrest 

Srinagar, October 27 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, authorities imposed curfew and restrictions in Srinagar and other towns of the Kashmir valley, today, to foil a march towards the United Nations Observers&#8217; Office in Srinagar to remind the World Body that it had failed to implement its resolutions on Kashmir. In a bid to prevent the march, the authorities have placed Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Syed Ali Gilani, Agha Syed Hassan Al-Moosvi, Nayeem Ahmad Khan, Farida Behenji and other Hurriyet leaders under house arrest while during crackdown arrested several APHC leaders and activists including Yasmeen Raja.

The huge contingent of police and paramilitary forces cordoned off the residences of leaders on Tuesday night and informed the Hurriyet leaders that they have been placed under house arrest. 

Kashmiris on both sides of the Line of Control and all across the world are observing, Black Day, today, to convey to the international community that despite Indian state terrorism they reject its illegal occupation of Jammu and Kashmir. It was on October 27 in 1947 when Indian troops invaded Kashmir in total disregard to the partition plan of the Sub-continent and against the Kashmiris&#8217; aspirations.

Call for the observance of the Black Day has been given by the All Parties Hurriyet Conference Chairman, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Gilani. 

Rallies in support of Kashmiris&#8217; liberation struggle will be held in Muzaffarabad and in world capitals.

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## Pratik

*Jammu celebrates anniversary of state's accession with India*

2010-10-26 15:50:00
Jammu, Oct 26 (IANS) Several functions were held across this winter capital city of Jammu and other places in the region Tuesday as part of celebrations of the 64th accession day of Jammu and Kashmir with India.

The Indian tricolour was hoisted in almost all localities and at main crossings in the city. Men, women and children came out in strength at all the places and sang the national anthem after unfurling the tricolour. Sweets were also distributed by participants to celebrate the day.

Many people greeted one another with 'Happy Vilay Divas' or 'Happy Accession Day'.

It was on Oct 26, 1947 that the last Dogra king Maharaja Hari Singh had signed the accession of his princely state with India. The accession was ratified among others by Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah, grandfather of Chief Minister Omar Abdullah.

Sheikh Abdullah's endorsement of the accession of Jammu and Kashmir with India is recorded in his autobiography 'Aatish-e-Chinar'.

*'It is a message to the world that Jammu and Kashmir is an integral part of India,' said Mohinder Sharma, a resident of Gandhi Nagar. Others echoed him.*

Almost all political parties of Jammu have joined hands to celebrate the accession of the state with India as a rebuff to the separatists in Kashmir.

The celebrations this year are being held on a large scale, provoked by Chief Minister Omar Abdullah's statement in the assembly raising a question mark over the nature of the accession with India. He has added to the controversy by repeatedly talking of Pakistan's role in the Kashmir issue.

'It's an act of severe irresponsibility by the chief minister who is in office because of the Indian constitution and still publicly displays lack of faith in the state's accession with India. This is unacceptable,' said Sunil Sethi, president of the Jammu Bar Association.

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## ajtr

AAj diwali re..........


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## Omar1984

*PISJ-ES observes Kashmir Black Day ​*






Members of the Pakistan International School (English Section) Jeddah, and distinguished guests observe Kashmir Black Day on Sunday. (AN photo)


By ARAB NEWS 

Published: Oct 25, 2010 00:20 Updated: Oct 25, 2010 00:27 

JEDDAH: Pakistan International School Jeddah (English Section) observed Kashmir Black Day at the Shaheed Benazir Bhutto Auditorium on Sunday, according to the school's press release.

Principal Sehar Kamran warmly welcomed the Chief Guest Akmal Saeed (Consul CA and Link Officer of the School) and distinguished guests.

Enlightening the audience about the significance of the Kashmir Black Day, Kamran said: "The day is observed across the world on Oct. 27 to condemn illegal occupation of India and support the just struggle of Kashmir people." 

"The Jammu and Kashmir dispute is one of the oldest unresolved issues of the world. The people of Kashmir have suffered all kinds of atrocities but their stand for justice and voice for rights has not been broken," she said.

Kamran said that suffering and misery of Kashmiri people continues and every day a peaceful resolution is deferred. The observance is meant to send a loud and clear message to the international community to pay attention to the misery of the Kashmiri people, to help stop human rights violations in the occupied territory, and to play its role in bringing about a solution of the Kashmir dispute in accordance with Kashmiri people's aspirations.

The students of PISJ-ES mirrored the struggle of Kashmiri people through their presentations, speeches and performances.

Masheal Kamran of Y-12 presented an eye-opening presentation with facts and figures, as did Mohammed Ali Imran. Maria Suhail, student of Y8, described the horrors of the past in her profound poem. The Y2 students gave a performance titled "When We Will succeed?" followed by a presentation of Y3 students "My country.... we will emerge in your paradise".

Sakina Mushtaq highlighted the Kashmir cause in an Arabic speech that was afterward followed by other Arabic speeches by Ahmed Aziz and Fahad Abdul Ghani of Y10.

The students of Y7 offered a glimpse of the beautiful Kashmir Valley and its splendid architecture through a presentation. Hamza Muneeb talked about turmoil's of Kashmir and said that Kashmiris can't be helped through peace dialogues but through democratic dialogues. 

Y5 Students through a brilliant performance depicted the sad tale of the dearest Kashmiri Valleys followed by Y9-5 performance highlighting the actual cause of Kashmir Black day Observance.

The program ended with the WAKE-UP project of Y12 students presented by Hassam Amjad and Hassan Iftikhar followed by Y10 students' dance performance.

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## Omar1984

*Young Kashmiris can&#8217;t be cowed ​*

CAN anybody, whether he&#8217;s Kashmiri or Pakistani, living in Rawalpindi-Islamabad or elsewhere, think of achieving peace for socio-economic well-being without solving the Kashmir question? Perhaps not, for &#8220;Kashmir is our &#8216;shah rug&#8217; (jugular vein)&#8221; in the words of the Quaid-i-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah. The entire human life, especially of Muslims, depends upon hypocrisy-free resolution of the issue, say old men and women who migrated from the valley after it was occupied by India. &#8220;The new young generation can&#8217;t be cowed,&#8221; they assert. 

The tragedy is that ever since Pakistan came into being on August 14, 1947, the issue has been lying unresolved with the United Nations despite many resolutions adopted unanimously, which empowered Kashmiris to exercise their right to self-determination. That&#8217;s called plebiscite which simply means the direct vote of Kashmiris, wherever they are, on the issue. Relevant to this day, in this context, is the appeal made by the people of Jammu and Kashmir to members of the British Parliament 21 years back. 

The appeal, inter alia, said: &#8220;The wave of independence and right of self-determination against colonialism in various parts of the world was honoured by the British Empire and the British people, who believe in democracy and rule of law, granted independence to the people of Indo-Pakistan sub-continent in 1947 with an option and liberty to at least 561states, either to join Indian dominion or Pakistan, or to remain independent. The state of Jammu and Kashmir wanted to exercise that right, but the Indian Armed Forces committed naked aggression on the state&#8230;We, the people of Kashmir hereby appeal to the honourable members of the Parliament to raise our voice and help the 12 million Kashmiris in their struggle for freedom by compelling the Indian Government to honour her pledges.&#8221; 

The memorandum annexed to the appeal mentioned the people&#8217;s struggle against the oppressive and tyrannical Dogra rule and establishment of a de jure revolutionary government in liberated part of the state on October 24, 1947. The notable part thereof was the bitter fact that the fleeing Maharaja Hari Singh secretly entered into an unholy treaty with the Indian government on October 27, 1947, and a provisional treaty of accession was executed on the basis of which the Indian Army troops were dropped and pushed into the state to fight against the Kashmiri freedom fighters. That so-called treaty provided that the people of Jammu and Kashmir would have the right of self-determination as soon as normal life is restored. India has not fulfilled its commitment to the UN yet. The day of Indian army attack has come to be known as the Black Day in Kashmir and is observed as such by Kashmiris and advocates of human rights everywhere. 

Recently, Indian Foreign Minister S.M.Krishna trumpeted that the disputed territory was an integral part of India, but soon came the rebuttal from Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah who claimed on October 7 that his state had acceded to India not merged with India. Mr. Abdullah told the state assembly in Srinagar that J and K &#8220;cannot be placed at par with Hyderabad and Junagarh,&#8221; which were forcefully occupied by India. He said &#8220;it is still a fact that Jammu and Kashmir&#8217;s accession to India is under an agreement and it&#8217;s not the merger.&#8221; Former chief minister Farooq Abdullah had adopted the same stance in his public speech in Srinagar on July 13, 2004. That&#8217; how India&#8217;s brazen lie gets exposed in occupied valley also. 

Kashmiris say Pak stand on the dispute has always been principled and in accordance with the UN Charter: there has to be a free and fair plebiscite in the occupied Valley under the auspices of the world body as envisaged in its resolutions of August 13, 1948, and January 5, 1949. Pakistan rightly drew the world attention to the new unprecedented wave of protests against occupation of Jammu and Kashmir and suppression of the voice of the youths who are demanding right to self-determination. In fact, they seem determined to achieve their object and political volcano has started erupting. The occupied valley has been racked by street protests since June 11 when a 17-year-old student hit by a tear-gas shell lost his life. Reportedly, as many as 145 youths have been gunned down by Indian security forces during the past four months. The widespread protest against state terror is indigenous. Before the situation gets worsened and is more dangerous than ever before, the world community should persuade India to learn that the peace of the region hinges upon a quick end to repression in the disputed territory. 

People have taken note of Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi&#8217;s September 28 speech to the UN General Assembly, which emphasised the fact that Jammu and Kashmir forms the central part of all the outstanding issues between the two neighbouring countries. The human rights of the people of Kashmir have to be respected and their voice heard to establish an environment suitable for peaceful solution to the long-standing dispute. The Pak call for solving the question cannot be overlooked by any sane person in any peace-loving country of the world in the backdrop of the situation which has deteriorated swiftly following violent response to the young and old Kashmiris&#8217; demand for right to self-determination. A peaceful resolution of Kashmir dispute in accordance with the UN resolutions and taking into account the aspirations of the Kashmiri people, as pointed by the minister, would surely create an atmosphere conducive to durable peace and stability in South Asia where millions are haunted by poverty, hunger and disease. 

The commitment of Pakistan and its masses to the cause of the oppressed people is known to the world, according to which they have always extended their unswerving moral, diplomatic and political support to Kashmiris fighting for their right to self-determination acknowledged by the UNO. The oppressed people are at the heart of the issue, and their fate and future are at stake. The UN Resolution of January 5, 1949, clearly states that &#8220;the question of the accession of the State of Jammu and Kashmir to India or Pakistan will be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite.&#8221; But, as former chief minister of the state Dr. Farooq Abdullah told a public meeting in Srinagar on July 13, 2004, the government of India has &#8220;illegally taken over control of the whole state of Jammu and Kashmir.&#8221; 

The matter of the fact is that India&#8217;s state terrorism has not relented in anyway until now, members of a migrant family disclosed to this scribe the other day. According to them, &#8220;life and honour of a Kashmiri woman is not secure.&#8221; The farewell greeting has changed from &#8220;Khuda hafiz&#8221; (God be with you) to &#8220;sahi salamat lot aana&#8221; (return safe). &#8220;A youth walks in fear&#8212;-fear of being named a suspect or militant, picked up, interrogated, tortured, and killed. And that&#8217;s not the end of Indian way of terrorism, the Kashmiri women live in fear of humiliation, harassment, molestation, gang-**** by Indian troops.&#8221; Five years back, violence figures were: killings 89,008; houses/shops destroyed 104,751; orphaned 106,205; women molested 9532; and widowed 22,158. There has been more to it by hundreds in the past five years (2005-2010), and there&#8217;s no end yet.

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## Omar1984

*Mirwaiz, Hurriyat members under house arrest on Black Day ​*





Indian paramilitary soldiers stand guard near the offices of the United Nations Military Observers Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP) in Srinagar on October 27, 2010. PHOTO: AFP 


SRINAGAR: Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, chairman of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) said on Wednesday that he has been placed under house arrest and his party is being prevented from observing peaceful processions that are planned for the Black Day being observed by Kashmiris across the world today.

Speaking to Express 24/7, Mirwaiz said that he had been placed under house arrest along with other leaders of APHC including veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader Syed Ali Geelani, since yesterday (Tuesday) morning. He said he received reports that APHC activists have been arrested by the Indian army, while the APHC office in Rajbagh, Srinagar has been sealed and the Mirwaiz Manzil, headquarters of the party, is also under siege.

&#8220;India is standing exposed before the people of Kashmir and the world community. They are not allowing peaceful marches and peaceful processions on a Black Day,&#8221; Miwaiz told Express 24/7.

&#8220;We are telling the world that Indian forces have forcibly occupied Jammu and Kashmir and unless they accept peoples&#8217; right to self-determination to determine their future, our just and peaceful struggle will continue.&#8221; he said.

Kashmiris across the world are observing Wednesday as a Black Day to convey to the international community that they reject India&#8217;s illegal occupation of the valley.

Call for the observance of the Black Day had been given by APHC Chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Syed Ali Geelani.

The day is to be marked with total shutdown in Indian-held Kashmir and a march is to be conducted towards the United Nations Observers&#8217; Office in Srinagar. Rallies in support of Kashmiris&#8217; liberation struggle will be held in Muzaffarabad and in world capitals.

APHC&#8217;s petition to Obama

Talking to Express 24/7, Mirwaiz said a campaign started last week to attain signatures in the state of Jammu and Kashmir for a petition that calls for international intervention to resolve the Kashmir issue, ahead of President Barack Obama&#8217;s visit to India.

Mirwaiz said APHC is starting a petition in Azad Kashmir, which is asking people to support intervention of international bodies, especially United Nations and United States in terms of facilitating a dialogue and a solution between India, Pakistan and the people of Kashmir.

&#8220;Hurriyat party believes India and Pakistan have failed to address the Kashmir issue. India has been vehemently denying Kashmiris the right of self determination to people of Kashmir,&#8221; he told Express 24/7.

&#8220;They are using all possible measures of atrocities&#8230; oppression and suppression of people&#8217;s rights in Kashmir.&#8221;

Earlier this month, US special envoy for Pakistan and Afghanistan, Richard Holbrooke, said the US does not want to play a third party role in the Kashmir dispute. Holbrooke urged India and Pakistan to find a solution through mutual dialogue.

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## Areesh

ajtr said:


> who cares?????indians are always one step ahead.....they have govt. of free tibet in exile in dharamshala.



Keep them their. In fact give them VVIP status. Spend money on them. Chinese won't mind to see Indian taxpayers money going down the drain.


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## Spring Onion

iRobot said:


> Where was this importance before last two years or so when one fine day China suddenly decided to issue stapled visas?



China had been issuing staple visas in the past too.


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## Spring Onion

ajtr said:


> who cares?????indians are always one step ahead.....they have govt. of free tibet in exile in dharamshala.



Bhartis do care thats why you see threads "what should be Indian response to Chinese" 


and as far as giving shelter to Chinese rebels well dont cry next time when one day Naxals, Maoists are supported by China


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## KS

Areesh said:


> And Hyderabad is the part of India but it didn't apply to IOK.



....Because Pakistan did/does not have the muscle to take it away from India.

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## Omar1984

*Sultan calls for solution of Kashmir issue ​*

LONDON, Oct 25 (APP)- Barrister Sultan Mahmood Chaudhry, the former prime minister of Azad Jammu and Kashmir and leader of the People&#8217;s Muslim League (PML), underscored the need to resolve the Kashmir issue, which, he said, remained a flash point for a major conflagration not only in South Asia but for world at large.

He was speaking at a function held in the East London borough of Walthamstow to mark &#8216;Black Day&#8217; when the Indian forces forcibly marched into Kashmir in October, 1947.

The PML Chief said Kashmir was the core issue between Pakistan and India and linked not only to peace in South Asia but globally as well. He added that peace in Afghanistan was also related to the solution of the Kashmir dispute.

&#8220;The Kashmir question is one of the oldest unresolved international problems in the world. The experience of over six decades has shown that it will not go away and that an effort is urgently required to resolve it on a durable basis,&#8221; he said.

&#8220;We, in the Diaspora and the international community demand that India should act as a democratic nation and respect the rule of law. We, in the Diaspora and the international community demand that Kashmiris&#8217; right to self-determination be honoured as an inalienable right,&#8221; he further said.

The Barrister also demanded that there must be an immediate and complete cessation of military and paramilitary action by the Indian forces against the people of Jammu and Kashmir. All bunkers, watch towers and barricades set up by the Indian military and paramilitary forces in towns and villages must be immediately dismantled. All those imprisoned in connection with the resistance to the Indian occupation must be unconditionally released. The draconian laws must be repealed immediately and the right of peaceful association, assembly and demonstration must be restored to the people.&#8221;

The Kashmiri leader said he had been visiting various capitals of the European cities to drum up support for the cause of Kashmir and will be organizing a big rally on Oct 27 before the United Nations in New York to observe the Black Day.

He said the present movement in the Indian held Kashmir, which began from June 10, was entirely indigenous because the Kashmiris were fed up with the Indian occupation and the harsh laws and rules they were subjected to in their daily lives.

The Barrister spoke of the Indian interlocutors holding talks with the leadership of APHC but said these could only make headway if the Indian authorities agree to the conditions laid down by the Hurriyet leaders on building self confidence measures.

British member of Parliament Lord Nazir Ahmed, who is also the Chairman of All Parties Parliamentary Group on Kashmir (APPGK), felicitated the Walthamstow Forest Borough as the only municipality in the UK that twice passed resolutions condemning the human rights violations in Occupied Kashmir.

He urged the Muslim councillors of Pakistani or Kashmiri origin to speak up for the cause of Kashmir and to impress upon their members of Parliament to forcefully take up the issue with the British government.

*Lord Ahmed said it was beyond one&#8217;s imagination that India should be seeking a permanent seat in the UN Security Council when it has repeatedly violated the Council&#8217;s resolutions on Kashmir and remain adamant in giving Kashmiris their right to self-determination.*

Regarding the upcoming visit of President Barack Obama to India, the Labour Party peer said, the APHC leadership must be allowed to meet him and on his return to Washington, the US President should hold a moot on Kashmir to resolve the lingering issue that is a threat to global peace.

British Labour MP for the area Stella Creasy pledged her commitment for the cause of human rights and said her party would continue to challenge the coalition government on the need for a more pro-active role towards resolving the Kashmir dispute.

Barrister Abid Hussain, Waltham Forest mayor councillor Masood Ahmed, ex-AJK minister Chaudhry Riaz and Zubair Gul, UK Chief of PML-N also spoke on the occasion and highlighted various aspects of the Kashmir issue.

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## ajtr

*J-K Accession Day to be celebrated as Diwali​*

BJP and many other organisations and groups have said that they would celebrate the anniversary of Jammu and Kashmir's accession to India on October 26 in the same way as the festival of lights.
"October 26 will be celebrated like the festival of Diwali by illuminating buildings and bursting of crackers in Jammu and other district headquarters," J and K Pradesh BJP President Shamsher Singh Manhas told reporters here.

BJP and its Yuva Morcha activists will organise programmes, take out rallies in each district of the state to celebrate Accession Day, he said.

Apart from BJP, other organisations which have decided to participate in the celebrations include Jammu and Kashmir National Panthers Party (JKNPP), VHP, Shiv Sena, ABVP, Jammu State Morcha (JSM), Jammu Joint Peoples Front (JJPF), Sangrash Samiti, Dogra Liberation Front, Jammu Joint Students Front (JJSF), Jammu Bar Association, All State Kashmiri Pandit Conference (ASKPC), Kranti Dal, Dogri Sanstha and Panun Kashmir."For us, the Accession Day is like Diwali and we are going to celebrate it as Vijay Divas," MLA and JKNPP President Balwant Singh Mankotia said.

"We will celebrate it for the first time at the historical site Mubarak Mandi, which was the seat of power of the last king, Maharaja Hari Singh, in Jammu at 10:30 am by unfurling the national flag and taking out rallies amid illuminations in various JKNPP offices," he said.

JJPF, a conglomerate of trade, transport and social organisations advocating the cause of the people of Jammu region, has said it will take out rallies in Jammu city and other district headquarters.

Maharaja Hari Singh, the last ruling Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir, had signed the Instrument of Accession with Lord Mountbatten on October 26, 1947.

JK Chief Minister Omar Abdullah had seemingly questioned the accession as 'not final' and the Congress had found nothing wrong in his statement, leading to furore across the country.


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## ajtr

*J&K Accession day celebrations in J&K​*
by Vijay Kumar October 26, 2010


Jammu,October 26 (Scoop News) -The Various organisations of Jammu,Kashmir & Ladakh today celebrates Accession Day in the same way as the people of the entire country celebrate 15th August or 26th January.

Maintaining that the accession of Jammu & Kashmir with India is "full and final",Jammu Bar Association Celebrated the Accession day in the premises of Court today.Large number of Advocates took part in the Programme,holding national flag Tri-colour in hands advocates raised the slogans like Bharat Mata Ki Jay &Vande-Matram.

Speaking on the occasion President Jammu Bar Association Sunil Sethi said"Accession of Jammu and Kashmir with India is full and final. It is inseparable and integral part of the country like Junagarh and Hyderabad,"and said accession day is our National day and should be celebrated as national day

He made an fervent appeal to the people of the Jammu region to observe the accession Day every year on October 26 by hoisting national flags, illuminating entire area, bursting crackers and distributing sweets," 

Taking strong note on the statement given by Chief Minister Omar Abdullah that Pakistan has a role in J&K, Sethi said Pakistan has illegally occupied a large area of j&k and inspite of advocating for Pakistan Omar should stress the center to build the pressure on Pakistan to vacate the ***.

Addressing the media persons Rajesh Thappa,BAR gen.sect.said that J&K is a Crown of Mother India and no one will be allowed to have a deal with the crown of mother India with the anti-natrionals.He said interlocators are the agents of Omar Abdullah & P.Chidambramb and they have already decided what to do.He appeal to the nationalist people of jammu and kashmirt to gear up for another Amarnath type agitation.

The Panthers Party had been also celebrating Accession in the same way as the people of the entire country celebrate 15th August or 26th January.

As a rejoinder to J&K Chief Minister who had declared in the Assembly that J&K is not integral part of India, the Panthers Party Supremo Prof. Bhim Singh declared the celebration of the Accession in every District of J&K on 27th October. The state level historic celebration shall be organized at Mubarak Mandi, Jammu, the seat of Dogra Kings, whereas the celebration in Srinagar shall take place at Panthers Party Headquarters in Srinagar.

This morning an impressive celebration rally was held at Leh under the chairmanship of Ramzan Khan, President of Ladakh Panthers Party, the Celebration Committee organized massive rallies in Poonch, Rajouri, Kishtwar, Doda, Ramban, Udhampur, Kathua and Jammu. Several side rallies were held at sub-district headquarters of Kalakote, Nowshera, Sunderbani, Batote, Billawar and Basohli also. The State President of the Panthers Party addressed a huge rally at Jammu District Headquarters and in Kathua. At Samba District Headquarters and Reasi large number of Panthers Party workers took out procession for the celebration of the Accession carrying tricolour flag and raising slogans, "Jammu Kashmir Hamara Hai Sare Ka Sare Hai" . A huge rally was held at District Headquarters of Samba which was addressed by Prof. Bhim Singh (Chairman of JKNPP), Harsh Dev Singh, local MLA (Leader of the Legislature Party), Yashpaul Kundal, MLA Ms. Anita Thakur (General Secretary), Faqir Nath, ex-MLA, (Provincial President) and others.

In his speech Harsh Dev Singh, MLA and Leader of the Legislature Party counted the historic achievements of the Panthers Party and express gratitude to the electorates of Samba for having voted for the Panthers Party. He also declared that three MLAs of Panthers Party are equal to 87 MLAs in the Assembly. Prof. Bhim Singh, Chairman of JKNPP told the residents of Samba which has a history of super sacrifices for the defence of the country right since 1947, that the J&K problems with Pakistan is only liberation of occupied areas which Pakistan should vacate as per resolution of the UNCIP. About the internal tensions and conflicts he declared that National Conference had declared Quit Kashmir against the Dogras in 1946 and this is the turn for the Dogras to make National Conference Quit Jammu and Kashmir because it is National Conference, he said, which is mother of terrorism, corruption and communalism in the state. He said that Congress has been playing the role of domestic slave of the National Conference and is equally responsible for the present State of Affairs. Prof. Bhim Singh declared that Reorganization of the State of J&K by granting separate Assemblies to Kashmir and Jammu is the only way out. About LoC, the Panthers Party Chief said that there are two alternatives, war or negotiations. LoC has to be settled with Pakistan for good.

Prof. Bhim Singh also demanded the release of all political prisoners arrested under PSA on the Accession Day unconditionally.

In the Kashmir Valley an Accession Day rally was held at border town of Kupwara and Baramullah presided over by Young Panthers President, Syed Rafiq Shah, MLC. Rafiq Shah declared that J&K became integral part of India the moment Maharaja signed Instrument of Accession. He said that India is a great democracy where J&K has been granted a unique place in India. He said in the so-called Azad Kashmir the people have been living like slaves in Azad Kashmir and Gilgit. The District Meetings were also organized in Srinagar, Baramullah, Gandherbal, Anantnag, Kulgam and at other district headquarters. Addressing a rally at Gandherbal Provincial President, Farooq Ahmed Dar challenged Omar Abdullah who is MLA from Gandherbal to resign and contest election against Panthers Party under the supervision of Election Commission of India. Dar reminded National Conferences leader that people of J&K do not accept gimmicks of Abdullahs who have been exploiting the Kas hmiris for 80 years. Masood Indrabi, State Vice President, Manzoor Ahmed, Provincial General Secretary, Mehboob Illahi, Press Secretary and others also addressed the rallies in Srinagar.

The Panthers Party shall organize a historic celebration at Mubarak Mandi, Jammu on 27th October, 2010 and at Srinagar Headquarters. The same day when J&K became integral part of the Union of India.

The Jammu Province Peoples Forum heartily congratulates the people of the state in particular and people of the country in general on the anniversary of signing of J&K's accession with India by Maharaj Hari Singh in 1947.

The forum believes in the finality of accession, which is irrevocable. It appeals to the people of the state in general and those in Jammu region and Ladakh in particular to celebrate the Accession Day on a grand scale, to give a befitting reply to those disputing the finality of the same and creating confusion in the minds of the people. The occasion should be observed as a festival like Diwali to carry the positive message to the world that any talk of separation and secession of J&K will not be tolerated by the nationalistic people of Jammu.

The JPPF condemns in strongest terms the attempts being made by the panel of interlocutors appointed by the Union Government on Jammu and Kashmir to internationalise the kashmir issue by suggesting involvement of Pakistan in the talks to solve the internal dimenstions of the J&K problem.

The terming of Kashmir problem as dispute by the interlocutors is counter to the committed stand of the country that J&K is part and parcel of India. The Parliament has passed unanimous resolution in 1994 asserting the finality of accession and J&K being integral part of India including those parts which are illegally occupied by Pakistan through an act of aggression in 1947.

The forum is of the opinion that the central government is giving undue weightage to few anti national elements in Kashmir valley who are raising the bogey of permanent settlement of Kashmir issue, which the JPPF believes stand already settled through the instrument of accession signed by Maharaja Hari Singh and accepted by government of India on Oct 26 and 27 respectively in 1947.
The JPPF also condemns Omar Abdullas observation that J&K has only exceeded to India and not merged with it and that the accession is conditional. By stating this Omar has spoken the voice of separatists and hence violated the spirit of constitution of the state, the oath of which he has taken as MLA and Chief Minister of the state. He should apologize and take back his words and the Union govt should give halt to such voices in the valley. Failing this, the forum warns that an agitation of the pattern launched in 2008 over Amarnath Yatra land row will be launched again in Jammu.

The forum further condemns holding of seminar in New Delhi on the subject 'Azad- the only way' in which Ali Shah Geelani, Arunadhati Roy and some others made seditious speeches. It demands the government to take stern action against all these elements who are inciting sedition and secessionism. Arunadhati Roy's observations in Srinagar two days ago that Kashmir was never a part of India is condemned with severest terms since it is against the historical facts.


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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> ....Because Pakistan did/does not have the muscle to take it away from India.



So you are in favor of violence against Indian state. Thanks.


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## Spring Onion

Karthic Sri said:


> ....Because Pakistan did/does not have the muscle to take it away from India.



The armless innocent Kashmiris are enough to pisss off Indians.

Kashmiris will take back their country from Indian invasion Pakistan need not to take it


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## Omar1984

*Arundhati Roy defends remarks on Kashmir*



Under attack over her statements on Kashmir, writer Arundhati Roy on Tuesday said she only spoke what millions of people in Kashmir have been saying everyday for years.

Pity the nation that has to silence its writers for speaking their minds, Ms. Roy said in a statement from Srinagar where she is on a visit.

*Pity the nation that needs to jail those who ask for justice while communal killers, mass murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who prey on the poorest of the poor, roam free, she said.*

Her statement came against the backdrop of the government contemplating action against her and hardline Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani under charges of sedition and seeking legal opinion in this regard.

Ms. Roy has made two speeches in New Delhi and Srinagar in the past few days in which she sought independence for Kashmir from India.

The writer said she has read in newspapers that she may be arrested on charges of sedition for her remarks supporting Azadi for Kashmir. I said what millions of people here say every day. I said what I as well as other commentators have written and said for years.

Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of my speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for justice, she said.


The Hindu : News / National : Arundhati Roy defends remarks on Kashmir


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## naumananjum

good china


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## flex

Jana said:


> The armless innocent Kashmiris are enough to pisss off Indians.
> 
> Kashmiris will take back their country from Indian invasion Pakistan need not to take it



u r running away from history.both in case of kashmiris and specially pakistani attempts.


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## somebozo

Urbanized Greyhound said:


> and somethings are more important than so called trade and $$ and good relations and that thing is Territorial integrity for Indians.It would be better that the Chinese also realize this or rather openly acknowledge that they have realized this instead of pretending......



and somethings are more important than so called trade and $$ and good relations and that thing is Territorial integrity for* Pakistanis*.It would be better that the *Indians* also realize this or rather openly acknowledge that they have realized this instead of pretending......

Bhart is taking thousand cuts by naxals, maoist and communits in exchange of few token tibetians! deal of loss??


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## somebozo

Kashmir alone has a huge potential to prosper and be a economically stable state. But if Kashmir is merged with India, the economic burden will increase due to share of revenues. Effectively stealing money out of Kashmir by greedy central government. This is why Kashmiris have been fighting for!


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## somebozo

riju78 said:


> Can someone explain why there was no freedom fight for 40 odd years after independence



I come in your house and give every family member two slaps for being XX group of people. As your children grow up, they start getting four slaps instead of two. They associate this as a shame of belonging to XX group and try to emulate the best of adversary group as much as they can. By the time the grand children mature up, they realize what has been done systematically to erode their identity. They instead take up rebellion.

This has what been happening in Kashmir. The first generation passed the violence, the second tolerated it but the third one wants to blast like a volcano!


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## HinduAtheist

somebozo said:


> I come in your house and give every family member two slaps for being XX group of people. As your children grow up, they start getting four slaps instead of two. They associate this as a shame of belonging to XX group and try to emulate the best of adversary group as much as they can. By the time the grand children mature up, they realize what has been done systematically to erode their identity. They instead take up rebellion.
> 
> This has what been happening in Kashmir. The first generation passed the violence, the second tolerated it but the third one wants to blast like a volcano!




Don't forget that the XX group used to be Hindus and Buddhists before invasions from Persia, Turkey and Central Asia.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> So you are in favor of violence against Indian state. Thanks.



Please do what you can do. . I am waiting for your invasion tomorrow.



Jana said:


> The armless innocent Kashmiris are enough to pisss off Indians.
> 
> Kashmiris will take back their country from Indian invasion Pakistan need not to take it



As usual nothing on topic.I was replying to some fellow's remark about Hyderbad/Junagadh.

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## roach

somebozo said:


> I come in your house and give every family member two slaps for being XX group of people. As your children grow up, they start getting four slaps instead of two. They associate this as a shame of belonging to XX group and try to emulate the best of adversary group as much as they can. By the time the grand children mature up, they realize what has been done systematically to erode their identity. They instead take up rebellion.
> 
> This has what been happening in Kashmir. The first generation passed the violence, the second tolerated it but the third one wants to blast like a volcano!



You should be awarded a PHD, genius. Talk about oversimplification.
Still not one coherent, logical answer to this question


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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> Please do what you can do. . I am waiting for your invasion tomorrow.



Thanks again


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## Avatar

somebozo said:


> Kashmir alone has a huge potential to prosper and be a economically stable state. But if Kashmir is merged with India, the economic burden will increase due to share of revenues. Effectively stealing money out of Kashmir by greedy central government. This is why Kashmiris have been fighting for!



Joke of the day.

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## KS

Areesh said:


> Thanks again



Welcome.

But I hope you are not thinking of this invasion - eRepublik - The New World | Online Social Strategy Game .


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## Awesome

> &#8220;Pity the nation that needs to jail those who ask for justice while communal killers, mass murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who prey on the poorest of the poor, roam free,&#8221; she said.



Exactly, mass murderers are upheld and given state positions while people speaking up for freedom are threatened with the death penalty.

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## LadyGaga

Ms.Roy thought the party would never end.well it has.Sedition is a serious crime and now she knows it too.

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## Urbanized Greyhound

somebozo said:


> and somethings are more important than so called trade and $$ and good relations and that thing is Territorial integrity for* Pakistanis*.It would be better that the *Indians* also realize this or rather openly acknowledge that they have realized this instead of pretending......
> 
> *Bhart is taking thousand cuts by naxals, maoist and communits in exchange of few token tibetians! deal of loss??*



By virtue of that we currently

1) recognize Taiwan to be part of China
2) Tibet to be part of China
3) Baluchistan to be part of Pakistan
4)Offer to negotiate on Kashmir with the offer the LOC be converted to IB , with current territorial control unchanged

now is it our fault for rising tensions between states or China/Pakistan's , and save the often repeated diatribe please that Kashmir /AP is the sticking point, there can be no single sticking point between two states that overshadows everything else.

If you choose to be inflexible and oblivious to our concerns on sovereignty then its not our responsibility for poor relations ...

besides we respond in Kind

its been conclusive that Chinese dont offer either military or moral support to maoists , so we dont reciprocate in Tibet either. How long do you think it will take us to insert ourselves in a situation in Tibet /Xinxiang ? 

so is Pakistan I may add taking a million cuts on its western border with NWFP , ( swat / Fata) ...the WOT , in Baluchistan , with its economy etc to quote you.
what is in exchange for a few financially sponsored Separatists ?

Let me put a straight-forward question ....You 've been reading about how Kashmiris want to leave India haven't you ? Now tell me how many articles or open demonstrations did you read about Kashmiris wanting to join Pakistan ? see the difference 
everything wont happen according to what Pakistan desires ....


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## airuah

my question is "do they do the same thing for people from pakistan occupied kashmir?" if not then their argument that "disputed status of kashmir " is nothing but a farce


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## Omar1984

*Clashes in Kashmir on anniversary of Indian troop arrival*


SRINAGAR, India  Eight people were injured in Indian Kashmir on Wednesday at protests marking the arrival of Indian troops in the region in 1947.

Five protesters and three policemen were hurt during clashes that erupted when police tried to block a demonstration in the northern town of Bandipora.

Indian Kashmir has been in the grip of unrest since June with a wave of violent pro-independence rallies leaving at least 111 people dead, most of them shot as security forces opened fire on stone-throwing protesters.

Indian troops arrived in Kashmir on October 27, 1947, after the Himalayan region's Hindu ruler requested help to fend off an invasion by Pakistan-backed tribesmen.

Maharaja Hari Singh initially held out for independence for Kashmir when Britain withdrew from the Indian subcontinent in August 1947.

Separatists observe October 27 as a "black day" and senior separatists had called on residents to hold protests and march to a UN office in Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian Kashmir.

Authorities imposed a strict curfew in Srinagar and other towns in the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley.


AFP: Clashes in Kashmir on anniversary of Indian troop arrival


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## PAKFA

I think she is the biggest traitor for our country . She forgot the wealth and respect got from this country. She need a slap not only for her but for every one who will try this in future.

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## Bhairava

Asim Aquil said:


> Exactly, mass murderers are upheld and given state positions while people speaking up for freedom are threatened with the death penalty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &#8220;*Pity the nation* that needs to jail those who ask for justice while communal killers, mass murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who prey on the poorest of the poor, roam free,&#8221; she said.
Click to expand...


Pity the people who take Suzanne Arun*datti* seriously

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## Omar1984

*Kashmir Black Day Observed in Malaysia ​*

Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, Oct 27: Like other parts of the world, the Kashmir Black Day was also observed in Malaysia as a mark of protest against the occupation of the Kashmir Valley by the Indian troops 63 years ago.

To commemorate the Black Day, a Seminar was held under the auspices of two Non Governmental Organizations (NGOs) of Malaysia, Global Peace Mission(GPM) and Angkatan Belia Islam Malaysia (ABIM) in Kuala Lumpur, today. 

The seminar was attended, amongst others, by Malaysians from all walks of life, including students academicians and a large number of Pakistan Community in Malaysia. Secretary General of ABIM and the Chief Executive of Global Peace Mission Mr. Mohd Asri Abdul were also present on this important occasion.

The representatives of Malaysian think tanks and academicians including Dr. Chandra Muzaffar, President of the International Movement for a Just World (JUST), an international NGO, Dr Arif Zakaullah, Professor at International Islamic University and Dr Ruhanas Harun, a well known academic and linguist were the key speakers. 
Dr. Chandra Muzaffar, Dr Ruhanas Harun and Dr Arif Zakaullah reminded the international community that the people of Jammu and Kashmir continue to remain deprived of not only their fundamental rights, but also of their inalienable right of self determination. 

They said that Kashmiris are peace-loving people and the current phase of the youths uprising is a peaceful political movement. They termed it as a renewed call to the International community to compel India to stop killings of the Kashmiri people through gruesome human rights violations.

The speakers were of the view that the present uprising is indigenous and outburst of simmering resentment among the Kashmiri people who have been under Indian subjugation for decades. They said that Kashmiris have chosen to speak for themselves for their freedom from Indian occupation and are demanding exercise of their inalienable right of self-determination pledged to them by the international community through solemn UN Security Council resolutions.

Two students, Miss Salwa Musani, and Miss Ramla Ariff in their speeches said that since1947, Kashmir has remained at the core of South Asias issues of peace and security, and is a sombre reminder to the world that the people of Kashmir remained deprived of fundamental values and freedoms. They said that Kashmir is aflame again amid a renewed outpouring of popular, non-violent revolt against Indias military occupation which has given a new dimension to this indomitable struggle for freedom.

They said that renewed Indian brutalities in Kashmir have led to the deaths of thousands of Kashmiris fighting for their rights which clearly reflect the extent of human rights violation by the Indian security forces in Indian occupied Kashmir. However, despite the hardships faced, the Kashmiris have vowed to continue to wage their struggle until their rights are restored.


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## Omar1984

*Firing on marchers in IHK, many injured
​*

Srinagar, October 27 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, about two dozen persons, two of them critically, were injured when police and paramilitary CRPF troopers used brute force to disperse pro-freedom demonstrations in Barmulla and Bandipore towns, today.

Paramilitary forces stopped hundreds of pro-freedom demonstrators when they tried to march towards the United Nations Observers&#8217; Office in Srinagar. Paramilitary personnel resorted to teargas shells and used pellet guns to disperse the protesters without any reason, said a protestor. 

On the other hand, at least four persons were injured in clashes between youth and police near Cement Bridge in Baramulla. The protests and clashes were going on when last report came in.

Meanwhile, police arrested an 80-year-old, Ghulam Muhammad Shehari and his son Ashiq Ahmed Shehari from north Kashmir.


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## GUNNER

*SRINAGAR, India, Oct 27, 2010 (AFP)* - Eight people were injured in Indian Kashmir on Wednesday at protests marking the arrival of Indian troops in the region in 1947.

Five protesters and three policemen were hurt during clashes that erupted when police tried to block a demonstration in the northern town of Bandipora.

Indian Kashmir has been in the grip of unrest since June with a wave of violent pro-independence rallies leaving at least 111 people dead, most of them shot as security forces opened fire on stone-throwing protesters.

Indian troops arrived in Kashmir on October 27, 1947, after the Himalayan region's Hindu ruler requested help to fend off an invasion by Pakistan-backed tribesmen.

Maharaja Hari Singh initially held out for independence for Kashmir when Britain withdrew from the Indian subcontinent in August 1947.

Separatists observe October 27 as a "black day" and senior separatists had called on residents to hold protests and march to a UN office in Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian Kashmir.

Authorities imposed a strict curfew in Srinagar and other towns in the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley.


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## Awesome

PAKFA said:


> I think she is the biggest traitor for our country . She forgot the wealth and respect got from this country. She need a slap not only for her but for every one who will try this in future.


Why speaking up for Right of self-determination is against your country?

Speaking up against **** is against your country?

Against injustice, corruption, and so on?

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## Jade

India has to be cautious while dealing with China. It should not react in knee jerk fashion such as recognizing Tibet to be a disputed area. The best thing India should do is to continue with its status quo for another 10 years. Then take on China for all its worth


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## Tshering22

Freedom of speech should remain freedom of speech... not instigate terrorism in the country. That is why this woman will be sent to the gallows. Since you don't have the understanding of what freedoms in a democracy or its functioning means, you won't eventually understand this.

Freedom is always meant for enjoying---not abusing. 

I am surprised how the army doesn't shoot this blood traitor straight between her eyes. This shows how kind India is even with traitors. 

And yes, you want to call us a fake-democracy because we don't promote terror speech, go ahead. Because whether democracy, theocracy or kleptocracy; in the end, national interests matter the most even if we have to publicly execute 1,000 Suzanna Arundhati Roys in front of the world.

This is not why our soldiers give their blood and soul to the integrity of this nation and such provocative anti-national speech merits a death sentence for this accursed woman.

Any "Rights" body has a problem with us, they can try and dare to stop us. We're ready

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## Jade

Asim Aquil said:


> Why speaking up for Right of self-determination is against your country?
> 
> Speaking up against **** is against your country?
> 
> Against injustice, corruption, and so on?



Speaking against the nation state, for balkanization of nation and misusing of freedom of speech for ones own gains at the cost of the sentiments of 1.2 billion people is a crime and she could be imprisoned for 14 years

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## PAKFA

Asim Aquil said:


> Why speaking up for Right of self-determination is against your country?
> 
> Speaking up against **** is against your country?
> 
> Against injustice, corruption, and so on?




Any one has freedom to speak here but there is limit for it. No one can speak by crossing the limit by going against country , people of country , emotions of the people of this country.

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## Awesome

PAKFA said:


> Any one has freedom to speak here but there is limit for it. No one can speak by crossing the limit by going against country , people of country , emotions of the people of this country.


Yeah? Where were your limits on the butchering of Indian Muslims when the Gujarat Riots were being done? Or 2000 deaths is under the limit?

Amazing, there are limits on speaking the truth but no limits on massacre!

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## Jade

Asim Aquil said:


> Yeah? Where were your limits on the butchering of Indian Muslims when the Gujarat Riots were being done? Or 2000 deaths is under the limit?
> 
> Amazing, there are limits on speaking the truth but no limits on massacre!



If Ms Roy would have talked against butchering of Muslims during Gujarat Riots, I would have been the first one to support her and I am sure most of the Indian member would

The situations are different. She is degrading India...and no citizen worth his/her salt would ever tolerate this

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## garibnawaz

Once a traitor, always a traitor.


















GB

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## JonAsad

A Brave and Honest Woman
















IKMKL

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## Tshering22

Her garbage doesn't affect the armed forces' position that even the weakling MMS government won't dare to push after a certain limit. Neither does it affect India's people.

Either ways, she's a goner sooner or later.


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## hillman32

Kashmir was never / is NOT part of India.


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## indushek

Indian reaction to this will be as usual. We will ignore this, however one thing is for sure now or in the future India will have to make a stand but not now. There are number of reasons for this.


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## IND151

WHY DONT WE OFFER STAPLED VISA FOR PEOPLE OF SINKIYANG?


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## ChinaRocks

IND151 said:


> WHY DONT WE OFFER STAPLED VISA FOR PEOPLE OF SINKIYANG?



couse you have not got the gut to stand up to china


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## KALKI

Let's just wait...wait...wait...for 10-12 years, we will make a stand when we are in a position to. We have other important things to address before that however.


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## srsrsr

ChinaRocks said:


> couse you have not got the gut to stand up to china


 or India doesnt have the same level of stupidity as China.

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## Abhishek_

Let us not bogged down by petty issues, we need to stay focused on development. 
Pick a fight when you're in a position to win it. Until then keep quiet and keep working.

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## ChinaRocks

srsrsr said:


> or India doesnt have the same level of stupidity as China.



or may be 1962 still in your mind , you just dont want an other chinese lesson do you?


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## KALKI

Abhishek_ said:


> Pick a fight when you're in a position to win it. Until then keep quiet and keep working.



That is one very important lesson we have learnt and I think credit must go to our western neighbour.

We will fight but only when we are in a position to. Till then, let's just wait and keep working.

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## flex

ChinaRocks said:


> or may be 1962 still in your mind , you just dont want an other chinese lesson do you?



when u will have ur mood to do instead of ranting then come.otherwise no need to post.


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## StingRoy

ChinaRocks said:


> or may be 1962 still in your mind , you just dont want an other chinese lesson do you?



That is a pretty bold statement you made there boy... remember in 1962 India was not a nuclear power. 
Hope sense prevails in you when your mind goes numb with pride.


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## DEXTOR

china will provide stpaled visa to ppl of j&k and india will not allow any of its citizen to move out of country with any kind of stapled visa,,so the indians in j&k will not go to china.... 

As usual GOI will play it down...and it will be a good move, no need to create hype, we need to wait for 10 years "every dog has its day" wait for our turn...!


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## readonly

DEXTOR said:


> china will provide stpaled visa to ppl of j&k and india will not allow any of its citizen to move out of country with any kind of stapled visa,,so the indians in j&k will not go to china....
> 
> As usual GOI will play it down...and it will be a good move, no need to create hype, we need to wait for 10 years "every dog has its day" wait for our turn...!



Exactly. There have been HUGE changes in India in this decade, and no one would have thought in 2000 that India will achieve so much in a decade. One more decade should pretty much show em'.

Patience is a virtue.


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## DEXTOR

ChinaRocks said:


> with an average iq of 89 i dont blame you for yr stupid replied, and yeah you are right now it is 2010 but still china s econonmy and millitary is alot more advance and powerful than india now go figure it out if we can give you an other lesson or not



stupid reply?? lol if dont got any answer then stupid reply?? tell me why didnt china teached india lesson in 1987 again?? 

And yeah kid i will tell you in simple words" IF YOU GOT BALLS THEN TAKE THE ARUNACHAL PRADESH FROM INDIA WITH YOUR SO CALLED BIGGER MILITARY AND ECONOMY" otherwise don't troll....


And yeah i am still waiting for the lesson of 1987...

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## Omar1984

*Pakistan incomplete without freedom of Kashmir from India: Sumsam ​*
CHAKOTHI (Line of Control) October 27 (APP) Minister of State for Information and Broadcasting Syed Sumsam Ali Bukhari said on Wednesday that Pakistan was incomplete until the liberation of whole state of Jammu and Kashmir from Indian occupation. Addressing a rally organized by Pakistan Peoples Party Azad Kashmir near the LoC to mark October 27 as Black Day against the Indian occupation, reiterated the pledge of Shaheed Zulfikar Ali Bhutto that Pakistan would fight for thousand years for the liberation of Kashmir.

Black day was observed throughout Azad Jammu and Kashmir with the public processions, rallies in all the major cities and towns including capital Muzaffarabad and protest sit ins processions on different sectors of LoC by all the major political parties.

Pakistan Peoples Party AJK brought out a rally from Muzaffarabad to Chakothi town, which was led by State Minister for Information Syed Sumsam Ali Bukhari and AJK PPP General Secretary Ch. Latif Akber.

Addressing the rally in Chakothi, the State Minister said that it was not the Black day for only Kashmiri people but also for whole of the civilized world as the Indian forces were suppressing and oppressing all the basic rights of people in occupied Kashmir.

He said on October 27, 1947, Indian forces occupied the State of Jammu and Kashmir against the will of its inhabitants and still she could not win the hearts of Kashmiri people, who were striving for their basic right of self-determination.

He said the PPP Founder Chairman Shaheed Zulfikar Ali Bhutto had pledged with the Kashmiri brethren that Pakistan would fight for even thousand years for the liberation of Kashmir and his Party will fulfill his pledge and shall never leave the people of Jammu and Kashmir alone.

Shaheed Benazir Bhutto stood with that pledge saying that we will run our blood where Kashmiri run their sweat and we will uphold this commitment, he added saying the Kashmir would be free soon by the grace of Allah.

He said Pakistan would continue support of Kashmir liberation movement on every forum by every means. We would raise the voice of Kashmiri People on every international forum, he assured the gathering.

PPP AJK Secretary General and MLA Ch. Latif Akber, ex-minister and leader of PPP Khawaja Farooq, Sahibzada Zafar Ishaq, Shaukat Javaid Mir,Bazil Naqvi, Farhad Iqbal Mughal and other PPP leaders also spoke on the occasion.

The PPP AJK also held a protest sit in at Taitrinot near LoC in Poonch district led by its president Ch. Mujeed,where one PPP worker was wounded due to unprovoked Indian shelling on LoC, a PPP source told this news agency.

All Jammu Kashmir Muslim Conference held a public meeting in Muzaffarabad on the occasion of Black day which was besides others by AJK Prime Minister Sardar Attique Ahmed Khan.

Ex-Prime Minister Raja Farooq Haider also addressed a public gathering at Central Press Club Muzaffarabad that was organized by his newly formed party Pakistan Muslim League (N) to mark the day.
Jammu Kashmir liberation front also organized a rally from Muzaffarabad to Chakothi led by its chief Amanullah Khan in the evening. 

Chairperson of the National Assembly Standing Committee on Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan Affairs Ms. Marvi Memon also reached Chakothi to express solidarity with Kashmiris struggling for their independence in occupied Kashmir.

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## Von Hölle

*Well this Pakistan's unfinished agenda of partition of India is the root cause of majority of its problems..it has already lost half its nation in this quest..lets see where it finally ends*

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## JonAsad

She should be the candidate for Nobel Peace prize

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## SpArK

*Also for Oscar awards* ..


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## Omar1984

*Indian forces open fire on PPP black day rally in Buttel sector ​*

HAJIRA/ISLAMABAD: Indian troops opened fire on AJK PPP black day rally at Titri note in Buttel sector on Line of Control (LoC) leaving five persons injured. 

Talking to media men AJK PPP president Chaudhry Abdul Majeed and central leader Matloob Inqilabi said Wednesday that a rally was organized to observe black day over the atrocities being perpetrated by Indian troops against the people of Kashmir. 

Indian forces opened fire from the other side of LoC when the rally reached Titri Note and as a result five workers were injured, they told. The injured were immediately shifted to nearby hospital, they pointed out. 

They said rally was peaceful but Indian troops resorted to unprovoked firing. &#8220;We strongly condemn it as it is sheer violation of ceasefire accord&#8221;, they added. 

Military sources have also confirmed this incident saying Indian forces have resorted to unprovoked shelling in Buttel sector.

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## ajtr

pakistan is incomplete without india so merge pakistan with india...problem solved.

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## Capt.Popeye

"He said the PPP Founder Chairman Shaheed Zulfikar Ali Bhutto had pledged with the Kashmiri brethren that Pakistan would fight for even thousand years for the liberation of Kashmir and his Party will fulfill his pledge and shall never leave the people of Jammu and Kashmir alone."

Sixty years on, another Nine Hundred and Fourty years to go.

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## Omar1984

ajtr said:


> pakistan is incomplete without india so merge pakistan with india...problem solved.



Only if Muslims again rule india like we did for over 1000 years.


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## Machoman

ajtr said:


> pakistan is incomplete without india so merge pakistan with india...problem solved.



Pretty sick idea you got man.


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## SMC

Von H&#246;lle;1230127 said:


> *Well this Pakistan's unfinished agenda of partition of India is the root cause of majority of its problems..it has already lost half its nation in this quest..lets see where it finally ends*



Pakistan lost Bangladesh because of Kashmir? Kashmir issue was the cause? And Kashmir issue is cause of majority of Pakistan's problems? WTF are you smoking? Besides the issues with India, it isn't the cause of any other problem. I see that you're just another bharti who has mixed correlation with causation.


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## Omar1984

*Mirwaiz terms &#8216;curbs&#8217; as frustration of Govt ​*

Srinagar, October 27: Claiming that the government was scared by unwavering commitment shown by the Kashmiri people towards the &#8220;freedom movement&#8221;, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq Wednesday termed the curbs to foil amalgam&#8217;s "peaceful programmes" as act of &#8220;frustration&#8221; on part of the administration. 

Referring to the 'crackdown' launched by the authorities ahead of the amalgam's 'UN chalo', Mirwaiz said while he and several other leaders were placed under house arrest dozens of activists were arrested during nocturnal raids to foil the march to UN office yesterday. 

"However such vindictive tactics cannot weaken our resolve towards the freedom struggle and the movement would continue till the Kashmir dispute is resolved according to the wishes and aspirations of people," he said in a statement. 

Mirwaiz also applauded the people for observing October 27 as a 'black day' to protest against the "illegal landing and start of occupation by Indian forces on the day in 1947."

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## Von Hölle

SMC said:


> Pakistan lost Bangladesh because of Kashmir? Kashmir issue was the cause?



Pakistan's Kashmir obsession is the reason why India and Pakistan are enemies..*and it can be debated, had you not interfered in Kashmir in 1965 .. India would not have interfered in East Pakistan*.


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## 1971Tragedy

Omar1984 said:


> Only if Muslims again rule india like we did for over 1000 years.


hahahaha r u kidding...
in bharath we had muslims kings and hindu kings also...and sikhs also...it doesn't mean u ruled whole india.lol
and by the way its not the india 1000 years back..
*u can just open ur mouth here on internet on dreaming of ruling india...instead,do u r leaders have that GUTTS to tell it to india in real world...do ur leaders have the GUTTTS!!!!!*!
Our leaders have said"Don't export terror pakistan",so that the whole world has heard...
so just wake up from ur wet dream baby...live in real life

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## KALKI

SMC said:


> Pakistan lost Bangladesh because of Kashmir? Kashmir issue was the cause? And Kashmir issue is cause of majority of Pakistan's problems? WTF are you smoking? Besides the issues with India, it isn't the cause of any other problem. I see that you're just another bharti who has mixed correlation with causation.



Great  you guys are on the perfect path and it couldn't have been better...for us 

Keep up the good work guys


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## 1971Tragedy

u wanted kashmir,u lost half of ur nation,now also u want kashmir,lets see wat u will lose this time......


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## DESERT FIGHTER

1971Tragedy said:


> u wanted kashmir,u lost half of ur nation,now also u want kashmir,lets see wat u will lose this time......



Not everyday is sunday........... watch ur back.... thts wat can say.


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## Von Hölle

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Not everyday is sunday........... watch ur back.... thts wat can say.



But it comes, once a week..is it that time of the week??


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## 1971Tragedy

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Not everyday is sunday........... watch ur back.... thts wat can say.



but sunday comes every week right and that day will be our time to strike....lol


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## Hulk

ajtr said:


> pakistan is incomplete without india so merge pakistan with india...problem solved.



Are you insane?

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## KALKI

indianrabbit said:


> Are you insane?



You missed the sarcasm!


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## Omar1984

*Kashmir Black Day observed
​*

OCTOBER 27 was observed in Pakistan, Azad Jammu Kashmir, Indian Occupied Kashmir and by the Kashmiri Diaspora across the world as &#8220;Black Day&#8221; since this the day, Indian troops illegally occupied the Valley of Kashmir, commenced their massacre of the predominantly Muslim population of Kashmir and tried to change the demographic dispensation of the Valley. The Indian Independence Act as well as the Partition Plan of 1947 for the Indian Subcontinent had declared that accession of the princely states with Hindu rulers but Muslim subjects or Muslim Rulers with Hindu subjects, would be decided by the people of the state. The Indians trampled this principle under the boots of their military. They forcibly occupied Hyderabad, Junagadh and Kashmir three princely states, to which the principle of accession was to be applied. Indian government made Maharaja Hari Singh sign the letter of accession to India at the point of a bayonet. The accession was totally illegitimate because the Hindu Ruler did not have the authority to sign away the future of the Kashmiris who were predominantly Muslim; moreover the accession was obtained under coercion. Many neutral observers opine that such a letter never even existed. Pakistan tried to upset the balance by sending its troops to help the Kashmiris get liberated. Pakistan and India went to war over Kashmir. Seeing the ill-equipped Pakistani forces advance towards Srinagar, India cried foul and approached the United Nations, who instituted a cease fire. After deliberations, the UN declared Kashmir as a disputed territory and passed Resolutions calling for the people of Kashmir to decide their own fate, whether they would opt to join Pakistan or India through a UN sponsored plebiscite. India&#8217;s prime minister then was Pundit Jawaharlal Nehru, himself a Kashmiri, who not only accepted the UN Resolutions but promised to implement them at the earliest. However, he was speaking with a forked tongue since he not only reneged on his promise but went to the extent of constitutionally declaring Kashmir as an integral part of India. This act is not only illegal but illegitimate, since it is in direct contravention of the UN Resolutions. Pakistan and India went to war twice more in 1965 and 1971, but the fate of the Kashmiris did not change and they continued to be suppressed under Indian rule. In 1989, Kashmiris arose enmasse in a freedom struggle, to throw away the yoke of Indian tyranny and slavery. India retaliated by sending over seven hundred thousand troops to crush the just struggle. Over one hundred thousand Kashmiris embraced shahadat, Kashmiri women were raped, their houses and shops were looted and thousands were incarcerated. India tried to hoodwink the world by labelling the freedom struggle as an act of terrorism and falsely implicating Pakistan as harbouring, training and arming the Kashmiris. Unfortunately the Kashmiris are no nearer the end of their struggle than they were in 1989. Having sacrificed thousands of precious lives, they still yearn to see the fruition of their dreams but even the world is becoming oblivious to their plight. What the world needs to recognize that Kashmir is the main bone of contention between India and Pakistan, who since 1998 have declared themselves as nuclear weapons capable states. Kashmir is a flashpoint, which is on a short fuse which could erupt into a nuclear war, engulfing not only the region but devastating the whole world. 

President Obama, in his prescience had recognized this acute threat during his presidential election campaign and promised to help resolve the crisis. However, after taking oath of presidency, Indian lobbyists and propaganda machinery have made him forget his promise. He will be visiting India on November 5th and if he is truly a man of conscience, he owes it to Kashmiris, nay the whole world to save the Kashmiris from their dark and dank life of slavery as well as avert the danger of world annihilation. Mr. Obama can spare a thought for Tibet, which is not even a real issue, but he chooses to be oblivious of the Kashmir issue. The Daily Mail urges the US President to keep his word on Kashmir, since by resolving it, he would also expedite the process of the return of peace in Afghanistan too, besides the Indo-Pak Subcontinent.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

1971Tragedy said:


> but sunday comes every week right and that day will be our time to strike....lol



Strike?.... good for u fanboy..... enjoy ur sundays.... our last sunday was in the 80s... even tht we let u enjoy in the en.... but ur next holiday wont be sweet if u went on oing ur usual ..

PAKISTANI FLAG ,IOK.


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## Omar1984

*Kashmir Black Day observed in Jakarta ​*

ISLAMABAD, Oct 27 (APP): Kashmir Black Day was observed in Jakarta, Indonesia on Wednesday with a seminar jointly organized by Kashmir Solidarity Forum, Jakarta and Dewan Dawah, Indonesia, a prominent socio-religious organization. Attended by over 200 invitees including women participants, scholars, media representatives, students of the educational institutions maintained by Dewan Dawah and prominent socialites, the seminar underscored that granting the right of self-determination to the Kashmiri people in the light of UN resolutions was the only way to address the Kashmir issue once and for all.

Charge d&#8217; Affaires, Pakistan Embassy, Syed Sajjad Haider who addressed the seminar as a special guest speaker said Pakistan had all along supported the Kashmiri cause politically and morally and had an unflinching belief in the just struggle of Kashmiris for their right to self determination, according to a message received here on Wednesday.

He said that more than six decades ago India had agreed to the proposal of holding a plebiscite to allow the Kashmiri people decide their own fate. The UN was a witness to this fact and if someone thought that since six decades had elapsed and the UN resolutions were a forgotten tale, he was sadly mistaken.

He said the international community, specially the Muslim countries, more so, Indonesia must use their influence to facilitate the settlement of Kashmir issue.
He said the people of Kashmir looked to the largest Muslim country in the world, Indonesia to lend them support in seeking their right to self determination. 

Dr. Zahir Khan, Chairman, Kashmir Solidarity Forum dwelt in detail on the historical background of the Kashmir issue saying Indonesia as the largest Muslim country in the world at present was with the Kashmiri people in their just struggle.

He lamented that international community, particularly the US had not accorded the due importance to the issue of Kashmir otherwise it would be easier to reach a worthwhile solution to this burning issue. 

Representing Dewan Dawah, Dr. Ali Bajri also called for international support to resolve the issue of Kashmir. He said he had recently been to Pakistan and saw a great deal of sympathy for the Kashmiri brethren.

He said India had always forgotten its own promise for a plebiscite in Kashmir and such a situation could not be allowed to go any further because the number of deaths and destruction in Kashmir had surpassed all records of ill treatment to human beings.

He urged that Pakistan like the past should keep up its support to the Kashmiri cause because that was what mattered the most. 

The seminar concluded with a Question and Answer session. Charge d&#8217; Affaires Pakistan Embassy, Syed Sajjad Haider answered queries from the Indonesian guests.

To a question he categorically stated that associating the just cause of the Kashmiris with terrorism was itself criminal thinking and a failed attempt to misguide the international community that supported the Kashmniri struggle.
He said it was a totally indigenous movement and would ultimately reach a successful stage whereby the Kashmiris could achieve their right to self determination.

To another question he said the UN resolutions formed the basis of a true solution of Kashmir issue and this fact could not be ignored no matter what amount of time had elapsed since the UN passed these resolutions.


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## 1971Tragedy

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Strike?.... good for u fanboy..... enjoy ur sundays.... our last sunday was in the 80s... even tht we let u enjoy in the en.... but ur next holiday wont be sweet if u went on oing ur usual ..
> 
> PAKISTANI FLAG ,IOK.


Dream on Babe.....
there is huge balance of power between India and pak,and it favours india,as we know..
so dream on..


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## Omar1984

*Kashmiris mark Black Day​*







Pakistani activists of the Kashmir Freedom Movement protest in Lahore yesterday to mark Black Day. Kashmiris on both sides of the Line of Control are observing Black Day, which marks the anniversary of Indian troops arriving in Kashmir on October 27, 1947, after the Himalayan region&#8217;s Hindu ruler requested help to fend off an invasion by Pakistan-backed tribesmen.


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## Hulk

iRobot said:


> You missed the sarcasm!



Even in sarcasm that is scary.

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## Omar1984

*Kashmiris observe Black Day against Indian occupation​*

Indian authorities imposed a curfew in Srinagar and other towns of Kashmir Valley on Wednesday to foil a march towards the UN Observers Office in Srinagar to remind the World Body that it had failed to implement its resolutions on Kashmir.

In a bid to prevent the march, Indian agencies placed Hurriat leaders, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Syed Ali Gilani, Agha Syed Hassan Al-Moosvi, Nayeem Ahmad Khan, Farida Behenji and other Hurriatt leaders under house arrest during a crackdown against APHC activists arrested several leaders and activists including Yasmeen Raja.

A huge contingent of police and paramilitary forces cordoned off the residences of leaders Tuesday night and informed Hurriat leaders that they have been placed under house arrest.

Kashmiris on both sides of the Line of Control (LoC) and all across the world are observing Black Day today to convey to the international community that despite Indian state terrorism, they reject its illegal occupation of Jammu and Kashmir.

It was on October 27 in 1947 when Indian troops invaded Kashmir in total disregard to the partition plan of the sub-continent and against Kashmiris' aspirations.

Call for observance of Black Day has been given by the All Parties Hurriat Conference Chairman, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and veteran Kashmiri Hurriat leader, Syed Ali Gilani. Rallies in support of Kashmiri liberation struggle will be held in Muzaffarabad and world capitals.


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## Hulk

So you are fulltime searching on google with word Kashmir?


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## DesiGuy

*Very Smart way to Increase # of posts!!!* 


Even Mods won't object on it! 

---------- Post added at 05:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:45 PM ----------

*For those who criticizes Indian's failures. "Girte hain sheh-sawar hi maidan-e-jung mein. Woh tifl kya gire jo ghutnon ke bal chala karte hain"*


I love your signatures, btw!!!!


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## Omar1984

YouTube - Indian Held-Kashmir history


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## Omar1984

YouTube - Women in Conflict (Part 1)




YouTube - Women in Conflict (Part 2)


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## Omar1984

*Pakistan to continue support to people of Indian Occupied Kashmir​*

ISLAMABAD, Oct 27 (APP): Pakistan will continue extending its political, moral and diplomatic support to the people of Indian Occupied Kashmir in their struggle for the right of self-determination. This was stated by the Ambassador of Pakistan to Kuwait Iftekhar Aziz in a ceremony held at the embassy on Wednesday to observe the Kashmir Black Day, said a message recieved here from Kuwait. 

The Ambassador, in his address said that October 27 was observed all around the world as Black Day against the illegal occupation of Kashmir by India.
He said on that day the Indian troops invaded Kashmir in 1947. 

He said the Kashmiris never accepted the illegal Indian occupation and waged an independence struggle from day one. The valley has witnessed a new wave of protests this summer by the Muslim youths who are fed up with the oppressive Indian rule. 

They are demanding independence. The Indian security forces have responded with brutal force and have killed more than 100 protesters, mainly teenage Kashmiris.

He said that Pakistan had raised the issue of Kashmir before the International community on every available forum. He said that Pakistan will continue extending its political, moral and diplomatic support to the people of Kashmir. 

He also highlighted Pakistan&#8217;s principled stand on this issue that the people of Kashmir should be given a chance through a free and fair plebiscite, to decide about their future, as promised in the UN Resolutions. No lasting peace was possible in the region unless Kashmir issue was resolved. he added.

The ceremony was attended by members of Pakistan community and officials from the embassy.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Agitation to continue till Delhi accepts Kashmir as dispute: Geelani​*






Lastupdate on : Wed, 27 Oct 2010 21:30:00 Mecca time 


Srinagar, Oct 27: The Chairman of Hurriyat Conference (G) Syed Ali Shah Geelani on Wednesday 
said the agitation would continue till New Delhi accepts Kashmir as a dispute. 
In a statement, Geelani said he would not leave any stone unturned to take the ongoing movement to its logical conclusion. In the past even some of our own people let us down and harmed the movement. Now time has come to take the movement to its logical conclusion. Come what may our agitation will continue till New Delhi accepts Kashmir as a dispute, he said. 
Geelani strongly condemned the use of force on people at Bandipore, Palhalan Pattan and Pulwama saying India wants to suppress Kashmiris through the barrel of gun. 
Meanwhile, Geelani condoled the demise of brother-in-law of Greater Kashmir photo editor, Habib Naqash. He expressed solidarity with the bereaved family.

Agitation to continue till Delhi accepts Kashmir as dispute Geelani Lastupdate:- Thu, 28 Oct 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com

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## Hulk

When u come to Delhi u will not survive if the same government ur protesting against do not protect you.


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## rubyjackass

Nothing to be worried about for India. Assuming Omar made his best effort(I am sure he did), all the bad press is from Pakistani sources. At least international media is not obsessed with the situation real time now.


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## third eye

Incomplete ?

With all due respect ,Pak became incomplete on 16 Dec 71.

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## RamGorur

Omar1984 said:


> Minister of State for Information and Broadcasting Syed Sumsam Ali Bukhari said on Wednesday that *Pakistan was incomplete until the liberation of whole state of Jammu and Kashmir from Indian occupation*.


So the cat is out of the bag eh? Not that it was ever in the bag, but for those bleeding heart 'freedom' e-fighters, claiming that their country supports 'azadi' (independence) of Kashmir, it is probably time to take off their blinkers. 

After all those keyboard battles, here is a minister nakedly expressing his country's irredentist/expansionist desire. Suddenly, the right to self-determination of the Kashmiri people no longer matters. What matters is how Kashmir will complete Pakistan. How convenient.


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## jayron

Omar1984 said:


> Only if Muslims again rule india like we did for over 1000 years.



But why do you include yourself with the people who ruled India? You must be one of the people who got scared and converted to their religion. Remember.. the person you have as your avatar is a second generation convert too. Just converting to the ruler's religion does not make you a ruler but a slave who obeyed the ruler.

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## nForce

Pakistan was more complete back in 1971 than it is now.

This is what happens when you stop concentrating on internal matters and try poking nose in others business....
*
More Kashmiri than actual Kashmiris

More Arab than actual Arabs

More Palestinian than actual Palestinians

More Afghan than actual Afghans

More Iraqi than actual Iraqis

More Iranian than actual Iranian*

Gosh....they seem to have issues with half of the World,irrespective of their capacity to pursue.....

What happens when it comes to being a Pakistani and work for the development of your own nation for a change????

All the enthusiasm seems to die down at that point....

It is so,because the political leaders have always used various international issues which have no direct impact upon Pakistani society to keep the youth of the nation distracted and without a focus,reasons being multiple,corruption being the prime......

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## ajtr

> India should recognise Bangladesh as the successor country to a united Pakistan because of its size and the number of members in it had in parliament before the break-up. If at all anyone has a say in Kashmir, Bangladesh as the successor entity has a more legitimate case,



Mr Obama, do you have real business to talk with us? - Opinion - DNA


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## Contrarian

Omar1984 said:


> Only if Muslims again rule india like we did for over 1000 years.



As long as he/she wins the election, anyone can 'rule' India even now.

Sorry, we dont share your standards of 'rule' or discriminate between 'Muslims' and 'Hindu' or 'Sikh' PM's.

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## desiman

Omar1984 said:


> Only if Muslims again rule india like we did for over 1000 years.



ya no problem, please bring back the great Mughals and they can surely rule over the Indian subcontinent. I hope you not relating yourself or Pakistan to the Mughals ? The Mughals believed in a united India and equality for all religions and ethnicities unlike you.

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## desiman

SMC said:


> Pakistan lost Bangladesh because of Kashmir? Kashmir issue was the cause? And Kashmir issue is cause of majority of Pakistan's problems? WTF are you smoking? Besides the issues with India, it isn't the cause of any other problem. I see that you're just another bharti who has mixed correlation with causation.



really common SMC 

Pakistan in relentless pursuit of Kashmir started breeding terror to "Bleed India with a thousand cuts ". A good 90&#37; of your problems is because Pakistan cannot mind it own business and not interfere in other people's affairs. From the Soviet Afghan war to Kashmir, Pakistan's problems have been created by Pakistan itself. Today you claim to be victims of terror when those same wounds you suffer today have been inflicted on India for decades now. Until and unless Pakistan lets go of its dreams on Kashmir, its dreams of a strong Pakistan can also be forgotten.

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## marcos98

is it just me or anyone else is noticing?
the horde of india bashing threads going on.
JK, arundati roy, poverty (and the usual specialities).
must have something to do with the weather .


kashmir WILL remain an indispensable part of India.
anybody thinking otherwise , read my signature.


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## Hyde

YouTube - Mere Watan Teri Jannat Main Ayain gy aik Din (Karyoo manz jigrus Jaes Chemno) New Version


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## desiman

marcos98 said:


> is it just me or anyone else is noticing?
> the horde of india bashing threads going on.
> JK, arundati roy, poverty (and the usual specialities).
> must have something to do with the weather .
> 
> 
> kashmir WILL remain an indispensable part of India.
> anybody thinking otherwise , read my signature.



lol yup couple of anti-India members have had to much time on their hands in the past couple of days.


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## RamGorur

nForce said:


> This is what happens when you stop concentrating on internal matters and try poking nose in others business....
> *
> More Kashmiri than actual Kashmiris
> 
> More Arab than actual Arabs
> 
> More Palestinian than actual Palestinians
> 
> More Afghan than actual Afghans
> 
> More Iraqi than actual Iraqis
> 
> More Iranian than actual Iranian*


You forgot the most import one:

*More Chinese than actual Chinese*

In a nutshell, they are everything and everyone, but Pakistanis. (Sometimes they are more Indian Muslims than actual Indian Muslims. But other times, Indian Muslims are not Muslims at all.)

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## justanobserver

^^
That was brilliant


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## Hyde

nForce said:


> Pakistan was more complete back in 1971 than it is now.
> 
> This is what happens when you stop concentrating on internal matters and try poking nose in others business....
> *
> More Kashmiri than actual Kashmiris
> 
> More Arab than actual Arabs
> 
> More Palestinian than actual Palestinians
> 
> More Afghan than actual Afghans
> 
> More Iraqi than actual Iraqis
> 
> More Iranian than actual Iranian*
> 
> Gosh....they seem to have issues with half of the World,irrespective of their capacity to pursue.....
> 
> What happens when it comes to being a Pakistani and work for the development of your own nation for a change????
> 
> All the enthusiasm seems to die down at that point....
> 
> It is so,because the political leaders have always used various international issues which have no direct impact upon Pakistani society to keep the youth of the nation distracted and without a focus,reasons being multiple,corruption being the prime......



lol, seems like you have bookmarked some of DaRk WaVe's posts

and sorry but we have already done more than our capabilities..... compare Pakistan's low economy with such a high population with any country of the world....we have progressed better than rest/most of the world - under our limited resources

Start counting from Defence to each and every economic field.... We are way below the chart in terms of GDP, but we are way above the chart in terms of technology and its sister fields. We are the 9th largest English speaking nation of the world and you know only high level of education peoples can speak English in Pakistan... so just take a guess about the level of education we have achieved in past 60 years.... in 1951 only 16&#37; peoples in Pakistan were considered educated, in 1998 the figure was near 44% and now its 60% + in such a short period considering the old and uneducated generations + childrens living in the country

And I find nothing wrong by having sympathy with above mentioned nations.....We are at least better than our neighbouring nations who is always poking nose in others internal matters.... and always crying about anything we buy from the world.....even if that is a WC for the toilet....we only have sympathy with other nations but never interferes in others matters.....

so by your above logic ----------- Indian Government is more Pakistani than the Indians itself

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## justanobserver

Zaki said:


> compare Pakistan's low economy with such a high population with any country of the world



India, China and Indonesia


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## foxbat

SMC said:


> Pakistan lost Bangladesh because of Kashmir? Kashmir issue was the cause? And Kashmir issue is cause of majority of Pakistan's problems? WTF are you smoking? Besides the issues with India, it isn't the cause of any other problem. I see that you're just another bharti who has mixed correlation with causation.



It may not have been a direct cause, but if India and Pakistan had good relations at the time (assuming Kashmir issue did not exist and 1948 and 1965 hadnt happened), I am not sure if Indira Gandhi would have taken the steps she did.

---------- Post added at 09:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 AM ----------




Omar1984 said:


> Only if Muslims again rule india like we did for over 1000 years.



Another wanna be Zaid Hameed in the making..


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## InPhilTraitor

Dear Pakistanis,

Please take Kashmir from us. If I remember this is the third time I am requesting you on this forum.

You are welcome.


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## Hyde

justanobserver said:


> India, China and Indonesia



wrong!
India always had a stronger economy than us....overall we have progressed better than India in past 6 decades

India only performed better after 1994












Same is the case for Indonesia where we were better on some years our growth rate was higher and in other years their growth rate was higher....China is a different story and nobody in the world could compete with China

Same applies for other fields - compare anything - we were doing great - so stop this bullshit now


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## KALKI

^^ Zaki bhai ko gussa kyun aata hai?


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## Hyde

iRobot said:


> ^^ Zaki bhai ko gussa kyun aata hai?



The whole forum can be my witness I hardly have any argument with peoples (especially indian members)..... but some peoples needs a "Danda" otherwise they don't understand


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## Ganguly

ajtr said:


> pakistan is incomplete without india so merge pakistan with india...problem solved.



In that case lady Jana will get a partisan In Ms. Arundhuti Roy...Believe me it would be lethal power..More trouble for India.


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## Areesh

Von Hölle;1230127 said:


> *Well this Pakistan's unfinished agenda of partition of India is the root cause of majority of its problems..it has already lost half its nation in this quest..lets see where it finally ends*




It is basically the agenda of rectifying a blunder occurred during partition of sub continent. That is the supposed accession of Kashmir with India. Will have to reverse it to make things right.

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## justanobserver

deleted....offtopic


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## Von Hölle

Areesh said:


> It is basically the agenda of rectifying a blunder occurred during partition of sub continent. That is the supposed accession of Kashmir with India. Will have to reverse it to make things right.



Well that is just the thing... you have already lost half your country in your quest to make things right..*but question is how much more are you willing to loose to make things perfect??!!*

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## Areesh

Von Hölle;1230658 said:


> Well that is just the thing... you have already lost half your country in your quest to make things right..*but question is how much more are your willing to loose to make things perfect??!!*



We lost half which was already separated from us in terms of geography. Now it is for you to leave IOK and stop fooling around. As I said it is time that blunders in this region should be rectified and the biggest blunder is India's occupation of Kashmir.


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## flex

Areesh said:


> We lost half which was already separated from us in terms of geography. Now it is for you to leave IOK and stop fooling around. As I said it is time that blunders in this region should be rectified and the biggest blunder is India's occupation of Kashmir.



if u already knew the future of region separated from ur geography then y did u make it ur part during 1947.
there are lot of blunders in the region ,biggest is the ur war.and which has made ur eco down and ur ppl get killed.


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## Von Hölle

Areesh said:


> We lost half which was already separated from us in terms of geography. Now it is for you to leave IOK and stop fooling around. As I said it is time that blunders in this region should be rectified and the biggest blunder is India's occupation of Kashmir.



Well you see India not separated from Kashmir in geography.. so thats that ..as far making us leave J&K ..try your worst!!
in hindi *"jo ukhad sakte ukhad lo..nahin denge Kashmir"!!! *

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## Areesh

Von Hölle;1230672 said:


> Well you see India not separated from Kashmir in geography.. so thats that ..as far making us leave J&K ..try your worst!!
> in hindi "jo ukhad sakte ukhad lo..nahin denge Kashmir"!



Thanks. We would ukhad Kashmir from you.


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## Jackdaws

twoplustwoisfour said:


> You DON'T think Taliban and ISI are doing a good job?
> 
> They have the US wrapped around their little fingers, getting free weapons and money without any sort of accountability. I consider that as a very good job.



Are they attaining any strategic objectives? Surviving through the gullible Americans is not "doing a good job" - have they managed to wrest Kashmir? Have they managed to wrest Kabul?


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## InPhilTraitor

Areesh said:


> We lost half which was already separated from us in terms of geography. Now it is for you to leave IOK and stop fooling around. As I said it is time that blunders in this region should be rectified and the biggest blunder is India's occupation of Kashmir.



I totally agree with you, Indian occupation of Kashmir is a blunder. So, you did not give away Bangladesh, you had surrendered to Indian Army.

So I strongly suggest Pakistan and Bangladesh send their respective armies to intervene in Kashmir and save them.


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## Von Hölle

Areesh said:


> Thanks. We would ukhad Kashmir from you.



But beware ..last time you tried to do the same... you ended up loosing your arm!!


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## Areesh

> SRINAGAR/NEW DELHI: *
> SRINAGAR/NEW DELHI: In what could invite fresh criticism, J & K interlocutors on Wednesday hinted at introducing amendments in the Indian Constitution to accommodate a discussion on the &#8220; azaadi option&#8221; for Kashmir. *
> 
> &#8220;The Indian constitution is a beautiful document and there is room for modification with changing times and we can even recommend for the amendments in the Constitution to accommodate the discussions on the Kashmir issue and to find the solution to the problem in line with the aspirations of the Kashmiris...*If there comes a time when all parties to the Kashmir issue decided on a solution, and that solution is not within Indian constitution, Indian Parliament can amend it,&#8221; Ms Radha Kumar, one of the three interlocutors, told reporters here at the end of a four-day visit to the Valley.*
> 
> While clarifying that this was only her &#8220;personal belief&#8221;, * While clarifying that this was only her &#8220;personal belief&#8221;, Ms Kumar said the Constitution had been amended more than 400 times and there is no harm if it is modified further to make it more accommodative. *
> 
> Incidentally, the government on Wednesday made light of Ms Kumar&#8217;s remarks on discussing &#8220;azaadi&#8221;, saying that azaadi may mean different things for different people. *&#8220;If azaadi means discussing freedom from overbearing presence of security forces in civilian areas, what is the harm in discussing it,&#8221; asked a senior government official. *
> 
> Dileep Padgaonkar, elaborating on his suggestion to the students of J&K region to prepare a roadmap for azaadi, explained that &#8220;what we proposed in the Valley may be good for Kashmir and not good for people of Jammu or Leh&#8221;. &#8220;But, we want to take everyone along and keep in mind the viewpoints of all the three regions of Jammu and Kashmir and people of India,&#8221; Mr Padgaonkar said.
> 
> *&#8220;Next time when we come (to Kashmir), let us discuss azaadi and its economic and strategic implications. We have to discuss it threadbare. If this is your wish, we can discuss it,&#8221;* Mr Padgaonkar had said.
> 
> The head of the three-member panel, Dileep Padgoankar, while interacting with mediapersons in Jammu and Kashmir also wished to take leaders of Azad Jammu and Kasmir on board to find the permanent solution to the Kashmir issue.



Interlocutors now talk of 'azaadi' in Kashmir

As I always say. So much for the unbreakable part or integral part of India rant.


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## Areesh

Von Hölle;1230682 said:


> But beware ..last time you tried to do the same... you ended up loosing your arm!!



Yeah we know what we lose and why. We don't need cautions from a Bharati.


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## LaBong

> If azaadi means discussing freedom from overbearing presence of security forces in civilian areas, what is the harm in discussing it,&#8221; asked a senior government official.



Why Pakistanis are getting happy with this statement? :s 

I agree with it, security forces should not be there in civilian area.

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## Areesh

^^ We are happy with this.



> In what could invite fresh criticism, J & K interlocutors on Wednesday hinted at introducing amendments in the Indian Constitution to accommodate a discussion on the  azaadi option for Kashmir.



It is always good to see integral part rant in danger. 

The govt official can twist the word in whatever meaning it suits him.


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## InPhilTraitor

Areesh said:


> Interlocutors now talk of 'azaadi' in Kashmir
> 
> As I always say. So much for the unbreakable part or integral part of India rant.



when is Kashmir's independence day? Just since we just broke up. I am always a great admirer of Pakistani Oracle and Wisdom.


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## Areesh

InPhilTraitor said:


> when is Kashmir's independence day? Just since we just broke up. I am always a great admirer of Pakistani Oracle and Wisdom.



Whenever it would be. You would be always invited to the celebrations.


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## jayron

Zaki said:


> lol, seems like you have bookmarked some of DaRk WaVe's posts
> 
> and sorry but we have already done more than our capabilities..... compare Pakistan's low economy with such a high population with any country of the world....we have progressed better than rest/most of the world - under our limited resources
> 
> Start counting from Defence to each and every economic field.... We are way below the chart in terms of GDP, but we are way above the chart in terms of technology and its sister fields. We are the 9th largest English speaking nation of the world and you know only high level of education peoples can speak English in Pakistan... so just take a guess about the level of education we have achieved in past 60 years.... in 1951 only 16% peoples in Pakistan were considered educated, in 1998 the figure was near 44% and now its 60% + in such a short period considering the old and uneducated generations + childrens living in the country
> 
> And I find nothing wrong by having sympathy with above mentioned nations.....We are at least better than our neighbouring nations who is always poking nose in others internal matters.... and always crying about anything we buy from the world.....even if that is a WC for the toilet....we only have sympathy with other nations but never interferes in others matters.....
> 
> so by your above logic ----------- Indian Government is more Pakistani than the Indians itself



Dude.. you don't make any sense. What ever you have said above does not justify why Pakistan is so bothered about other nations than its own. 
Before you pat yourself on your back for economic and literacy achievements, look how other countries have performed.


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## InPhilTraitor

Areesh said:


> Whenever it would be. You would be always invited to the celebrations.



you really suck at making predictions. just boring... so much for free kashmir.... lets move on to the next pissing contest... Indian Army vs Pakistan Army.


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## Hyde

jayron said:


> Dude.. you don't make any sense. What ever you have said above does not justify why Pakistan is so bothered about other nations than its own.
> Before you pat yourself on your back for economic and literacy achievements, look how other countries have performed.



oh yeah, It took perhaps years to kill 2000 peoples in Pakistan in various bomb blasts across the country.....

But our neighbours managed to break this record in just matter of days (Gujarat incident)

There can be a long list but i am not in mood for now


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## InPhilTraitor

Zaki said:


> oh yeah, It took perhaps years to kill 2000 peoples in Pakistan in various bomb blasts across the country.....
> 
> But our neighbours managed to break this record in just matter of days (Gujarat incident)
> 
> There can be long list but i am not in mood for now



does that list include Jewish holocaust ?


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## Hyde

InPhilTraitor said:


> does that list include Jewish holocaust ?



Ask your countrymen,
there were raising fingers about Pakistan

I just responded politely


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## InPhilTraitor

Zaki said:


> Ask your countrymen,
> there were raising fingers about Pakistan
> 
> I just responded politely



we indians come here to finger point at pakistan, but the pakistanis come here to talk some sense in to us. some things can not be changed, a reasoning logical pakistani and a finger pointing india, we have to live with ourselves.


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## Peshwa

Areesh said:


> ^^ We are happy with this.
> 
> 
> 
> It is always good to see integral part rant in danger.
> 
> The govt official can twist the word in whatever meaning it suits him.



Its a bit soon to pop the champagne bottle dost....

What the below simply means is that...if all parties...India, Pakistan and Kashmir are able to come to a solution then the INDIAN PARLIAMENT can vote to change the constitution....

Theres 2 problems you have here....

1. India will never settle for a loss in land....trust me, no compromises will be made by India..so an amicable solution is not possible since all parties have hardline views
2. Even if there is a solution...The INDIAN PARLIAMENT will never be able to vote in such an amendment......what makes you think that in a democracy every Indian will sheepishly follow the party in power to make a trade of Indian lands?

So....we as Indians understand the meaning of such overtures....hence you wont see much panic....this is part of the diplomacy

.


> If there comes a time when all parties to the Kashmir issue decided on a solution, and that solution is not within Indian constitution, Indian Parliament can amend it, Ms Radha Kumar, one of the three interlocutors, told reporters here at the end of a four-day visit to the Valley.

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## RamGorur

Zaki said:


> oh yeah, It took perhaps years to kill 2000 peoples in Pakistan in various bomb blasts across the country.....
> 
> But our neighbours managed to break this record in just matter of days (Gujarat incident)
> 
> There can be a long list but i am not in mood for now


Considering the fact that the Pakistani genocide of Bengalis in East Pakistan, in a matter of months, is considered as the one of the worst genocides after Hitler and Pol Pot, you have some nerve pointing fingers at India.

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## paritosh

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Who captured Hyderabad and junagarh not to forget other small princely states tht wanted to stay seperate?



you've had your share of problems dealing with your country as well...
->you've had half of your country rebelling against the other half...had you reached a political situation in '71...whatever you say about self-determination of people would have made perfect sense....

->Balochistan was occupied with force too wasn't it?and till date there are human rights violations there...

We all have skeletons in our closet....the part I don't like is that Pakistan harps on this line of trying to save the Kashmiris from the Indian aggression having perpetrated similar acts of aggression herself.


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## paritosh

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> *Kashmiri Youngsters Wage Online Struggle​*
> 
> 
> INDIA: Kashmiri Youngsters Wage Online Struggle - IPS ipsnews.net



Quite frankly as of now...the agitated Kashmiris can get negotiations coming there way...
The youth there are misinformed...GoI has made sure their land stays their land...
no Indian from any other state can buy property or land in Kashmir...Kashmir is an alcohol free state...
Kashmiris are given special quotas in govt. colleges and institutions...
they fight because they see foreign forces manning their streets and that is it...
police firing...stone-pelting is a vicious cycle....what starts the other can never be judged...


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## RamGorur

Regardless of premature ejaculation of our Pakistani member here, I like the subtlety here. 



> &#8220;*If azaadi means discussing freedom from overbearing presence of security forces in civilian areas*, what is the harm in discussing it,&#8221;



Amendment of Constitution is inevitable for the solution of Kashmir. If autonomy is to be given to Kashmir, it would require Constitutional amendment. If Article 370 is to be revoked, it would require Constitutional amendment as well. So whats the big deal here.

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## LaBong

Zaki said:


> oh yeah, It took perhaps years to kill 2000 peoples in Pakistan in various bomb blasts across the country.....
> 
> But our neighbours managed to break this record in just matter of days (Gujarat incident)
> 
> There can be a long list but i am not in mood for now



Total 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus were killed in Gujrat riot. 

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Gujarat riot death toll revealed

*Disclaimer: * In no way I'm trying to defend Gujrat riot. The only reason of posting that statistics is, those who were responsible for Mumbai Carnage, were quoted saying, they came here to take revenge of 10s of thousands of Muslims been killed in Gujrat. So it's very much important when we are discussing a sensitive issue like Gujrat, we deal with proper statistics. I don't want another misguided fellow with AK series in his hand in our city.

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## Dance

desiman said:


> really common SMC
> 
> Pakistan in relentless pursuit of Kashmir started breeding terror to "Bleed India with a thousand cuts ". *A good 90&#37; of your problems is because Pakistan cannot mind it own business and not interfere in other people's affairs.* From the Soviet Afghan war to Kashmir, Pakistan's problems have been created by Pakistan itself. Today you claim to be victims of terror when those same wounds you suffer today have been inflicted on India for decades now. Until and unless Pakistan lets go of its dreams on Kashmir, its dreams of a strong Pakistan can also be forgotten.



What about when your so called country interfered with other countries and sponsored terrorism in East Pakistan in 1971 and the LTTE in Sri Lanka?


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## Gossipmonger

Peshwa said:


> Its a bit soon to pop the champagne bottle dost....
> 
> What the below simply means is that...if all parties...India, Pakistan and Kashmir are able to come to a solution then the INDIAN PARLIAMENT can vote to change the constitution....
> 
> Theres 2 problems you have here....
> 
> 1. India will never settle for a loss in land....trust me, no compromises will be made by India..so an amicable solution is not possible since all parties have hardline views
> 2. Even if there is a solution...The INDIAN PARLIAMENT will never be able to vote in such an amendment......what makes you think that in a democracy every Indian will sheepishly follow the party in power to make a trade of Indian lands?
> 
> *So....we as Indians understand the meaning of such overtures....hence you wont see much panic....this is part of the diplomacy *



Exactly! This is the point I was also just about to make.
Seems indian Diplomacy has been maturing fast. Handling of BD relation is one of the prime example of that.

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## Areesh

Peshwa

I think you missed the point. It doesn't matter what Indians do or what not. What matter and what positive about this news is that after all the years of ranting about the Indian integrity with Kashmir some Indians have started to talk about Azadi and solution of Kashmir issue outside Indian constitution. 

Nobody is saying that Indian parliament is going made the amendments in the constitution tomorrow or day after tomorrow. What's necessary is that at least some Indians have started to smell the coffee.


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## Areesh

RamGorur said:


> Regardless of premature ejaculation of our Pakistani member here, I like the subtlety here.
> 
> 
> 
> Amendment of Constitution is inevitable for the solution of Kashmir. If autonomy is to be given to Kashmir, it would require Constitutional amendment. If Article 370 is to be revoked, it would require Constitutional amendment as well. So whats the big deal here.



I think you aren't allowed for any premature ejaculation with just two lines out of whole article.



> &#8220;Next time when we come (to Kashmir), let us discuss azaadi and its economic and strategic implications. We have to discuss it threadbare. If this is your wish, we can discuss it,&#8221; Mr Padgaonkar had said.





> SRINAGAR/NEW DELHI: In what could invite fresh criticism, J & K interlocutors on Wednesday hinted at introducing amendments in the Indian Constitution to accommodate a discussion on the &#8220; azaadi option&#8221; for Kashmir.


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## Von Hölle

Dance said:


> What about when your so called country interfered with other countries and sponsored terrorism in East Pakistan in 1971 and the LTTE in Sri Lanka?



Interference in E.Pakistan was because of Pakistan not minding its own business wrt Kashmir...had you not launched a sneak attack on Kashmir, we would not have attacked you.


Interference in Sri lanka was in favor Lankan and against LTTE...where IPKF fought against LTTE for 3 yrs.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> As I always say. So much for the unbreakable part or integral part of India rant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &#8220;If azaadi means discussing freedom from overbearing presence of security forces in civilian areas, what is the harm in discussing it,&#8221; asked a senior government official.
Click to expand...


Excellent diplomacy,I must say.

Army is not stationed in Mumbai or Delhi or Kolkata..Does this mean they are not integral parts. 

Soothing the feelings of the local populace while still maintaining the ground realities of full Army presence in LoC to thwart infiltration attempts.

Good move.

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## hahahaha

This forum has gone sick.. 

There are so many members who suggest the hate for India and they can't even ignore it in their signature.. 

That only shows the desperateness and morons you guys are.. Even Elite members put their signature indicating how much they hate India and every morning they wake up with only one thing in mind... 

Keep it up you will never be able to develop.. Love your religion, who is disrespecting it? I have never seen sane person saying that MUSLIM should rule INDIA.. How sick, illiterate, low standard does that sound.. What impression it leaves on others you have no idea... 

If I meet you tomorrow face to face, I will always have a halo perception which will protect me to talk to nicely... And when you cannot communicate, development hampers..

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## Dance

hahahaha said:


> This forum has gone sick..
> 
> There are so many members who suggest the hate for India and they can't even ignore it in their signature..
> 
> That only shows the desperateness and morons you guys are.. Even Elite members put their signature indicating how much they hate India and every morning they wake up with only one thing in mind...
> 
> Keep it up you will never be able to develop.. Love your religion, who is disrespecting it? I have never seen sane person saying that MUSLIM should rule INDIA.. How sick, illiterate, low standard does that sound.. What impression it leaves on others you have no idea...
> 
> If I meet you tomorrow face to face, I will always have a halo perception which will protect me to talk to nicely... And when you cannot communicate, development hampers..



You obviously haven't visited BR, no one can compete when it comes to how sick it is or the amount of morons in it.


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## KALKI

Dance said:


> You obviously haven't visited BR, no one can compete when it comes to how sick it is or the amount of morons in it.



Don't worry...PDF is also well on its way. 

Just look at the relentless India bashing going on on almost every single thread (literally)


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## RamGorur

Areesh said:


> What matter and what positive about this news is that after all the years of ranting about the Indian integrity with Kashmir some Indians have started to talk about Azadi and solution of Kashmir issue outside Indian constitution.


'Outside Indian constitution' doesn't necessarily mean secession. Even if autonomy is to be offered it will be _outside_ Indian constitution because, except for Article 370, which grants limited autonomy and is temporary in nature, there is no other provision allowing such arrangement.



Areesh said:


> I think you aren't allowed for any premature ejaculation with just two lines out of whole article.
> 
> 
> 
> &#8220;Next time when we come (to Kashmir), let us discuss *azaadi* and its economic and strategic implications. We have to discuss it threadbare. If this is your wish, we can discuss it,&#8221; Mr Padgaonkar had said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SRINAGAR/NEW DELHI: In what could invite fresh criticism, J & K interlocutors on Wednesday hinted at introducing amendments in the Indian Constitution to accommodate a discussion on the &#8220; *azaadi* option&#8221; for Kashmir.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

And that 'azaadi' has been defined, in those two lines, as:


> *...discussing freedom from overbearing presence of security forces in civilian areas...*




If you had some comprehension skill you would have realised that those two lines have set the tone for the entire news report.


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## KS

I think our friend,Areesh's intentions in opening this thread has been an EPIC FAIL reading the comments of the Indian members


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## Areesh

RamGorur said:


> And that 'azaadi' has been defined, in those two lines, as:




And by whom???



> asked a senior government official.



Not the Kashmiris or those interlocutors who started all this debate. Who needs misinterpretation by a GOI official for the word "Azadi".

As I said you are also not allowed premature ejaculation on just too lines out of whole article. You can ejaculate on any other reason though.


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## Dance

iRobot said:


> Don't worry...PDF is also well on its way.
> 
> Just look at the relentless India bashing going on on almost every single thread (literally)



Compared to BR and all the other indian forums out there, this one is the most civilized and tolerant. 

Just look at the number of indians on this forum, if this was an indian forum almost all the Pakistanis would have been banned by now.


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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> I think our friend,Areesh's intentions in opening this thread has been an EPIC FAIL reading the comments of the Indian members



Yeah right you think I was expecting some sane attitude from Bharatis and fan boys present on this forum. Or if we care about the comments of Indians about a news.


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## Pratik

Omar1984 said:


> Only if Muslims again rule india like we did for over 1000 years.



*The only places muslim ruled for over 1000 years are in Pakistan now.Good for u.*


Half of India was ruled by natives Hindu kings untill Mogul empire established itself in around 1600 AD .Then again Mogul's writ was restricted down to Delhi castle by the year 1750. The marathas and the Sikhs have taken control of north India . And the time year 1850,all of india is in control of the British.

*
So for almost half of india from Maharashtra,Orissa to down South in Tamilnadu ,kerela the Muslim rules lasted somewhere between 100-250 years max.Thank u.*

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## RamGorur

Areesh said:


> And by whom???
> 
> 
> 
> Not the Kashmiris or those interlocutors who started all this debate. Who needs misinterpretation by a GOI official for the word "Azadi".


Isn't it the whole point? That GoI has its own definition of 'azaadi'. I hope you do know the meaning of 'interlocutor'. If not, check the dictionary.


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## RamGorur

Areesh said:


> ...if we care about the comments of Indians about a news.


And yet you continue to respond to our comments. That is a strange way of showing _not_ caring.


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## justanobserver

Dance said:


> Compared to BR and all the other indian forums out there, this one is the most civilized and tolerant.



BR doesn't claim to be an international forum, Pakistani IPs are actually banned from registration. It is strictly an Indian forum

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## Dance

justanobserver said:


> BR doesn't claim to be an international forum, Pakistani IPs are actually banned from registration. It is strictly an Indian forum



Well that just shows what kind of mentality the people have there


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## KALKI

Dance said:


> Compared to BR and all the other indian forums out there, this one *is* the most civilized and tolerant.



*USED TO BE*


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## LaBong

Dance said:


> Well that just shows what kind of mentality the people have there



There are other Indian 'international' forums, there are other only Pakistani forums.

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## justanobserver

Dance said:


> Well that just shows what kind of *mentality *the people have there



Yep you don't have your usual bleeding heart liberals there, the population there is all hawk

However there is an Indian forum that is well moderated and accepts all nationalities. You may want to check that out (hint:it's *not* the one in the spam messages)

Anyways discussing other forums is against the rules, so no more offtopic posts from me


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## Areesh

RamGorur said:


> Isn't it the whole point? That GoI has its own definition of 'azaadi'. I hope you do know the meaning of 'interlocutor'. If not, check the dictionary.



No this isn't the whole point. GOI might have it's wonderland, doesn't changes the fact that Azadi word has it's own specific meanings accepted world wide and also in IOK.

About interlocutors I would like to see any such statement about the word azadi from them like that unknown GOI official gave. Their statements about this word says something otherwise.



> And yet you continue to respond to our comments. That is a strange way of showing not caring.



Answering the opponent doesn't mean we also care what they believe.


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## Subramanian

somebozo said:


> Kashmir alone has a huge potential to prosper and be a economically stable state. But if Kashmir is merged with India, the economic burden will increase due to share of revenues. Effectively stealing money out of Kashmir by greedy central government. This is why Kashmiris have been fighting for!



you think life is so easy.You are a landlocked valley between India,Pakistan and China and you want Independence.All this after the present incumbents themselves were invaders occupying the land for just 600 years.Independence,my ***.


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## Pratik

Ms Radha Kumar has lost her mind.

Constitution amendment would 2/3 majority ,on a controversial issue like Kashmir its impossible.

second thing , the whole Azadi issue means another Partition of india .
40&#37; of j & K state is non Muslim.We had already the horrific consequence of 1947 partition, mass slaughter and exodus .Who wants a repeat of that?? 

*India Govt and every sane person should emphasis in no uncertain terms on the futility of such an impossible dream like Azadi for Kashmir.*


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## GUNNER

*Half stories, half truths about Kashmir*

Sanjay Kak is a Kashmiri Pandit who has made an evocative documentary, Jashn-e-Azadi, which captures various forms of protests in the Valley and traces the deep sense of alienation of Muslims. 

The word azadi, in that film, acquires a meaning far deeper than just freedom or secession. The concept of azadi is so entrenched in the Kashmiri Muslim consciousness that neither State largesse nor repression can restore peace to the valley, if their struggle isnt understood in human terms. 

Kaks documentary also brings out the angst of Kashmiri Pandits, their longing for a home from which theyve been uprooted. A few years ago, I watched this disturbing human drama and, as a Pandit myself, admired Kaks courage in confronting vested interests, including his own community. 

As we came out of the theatre, a relative of mine lamented, I feel guilty". This guilt did not arise, as mine did, from the realisation that the Kashmir issue is not a religious-fundamentalist movement, as the Indian state portrays. He, instead, felt that by watching the film he was endorsing the outrageous, misleading propaganda his own community member (Kak) was spreading. Kashmiri Pandit activists have prevented the screening of Kaks film in Delhi through protests you cant call peaceful.

This preamble is to put in perspective the story about last weeks seminar, Azadi, the only way, which has spawned many versions, each wildly different in its perception of what transpired. Syed Ali Shah Geelanis call for azadi there has outraged Indians; they want him and Arundhati Roy  whom the middle class hates as much as V P Singh for his Mandal experiment  to be tried for sedition.

As a witness to the event, I must admit that the 400-strong audience, comprising mostly young Kashmiris, erupted in frenzied applause every time a speaker referred to the oppression by the Indian state in Kashmir. There were speakers from the ultra left too, who underlined the brutal suppression of just mass struggles across India. Their speeches were equally anti-State, but they werent hate speeches nor did they advocate violence.

In this charged atmosphere, the problem began when Roy began to speak. She was heckled, for ignoring the injustices against Kashmiri Hindus, as she blasted the Indian State. The taunts of the hecklers, numbering just a dozen, were drowned in the thunderous applause of the majority, which wanted the seminar to continue.

A brief pause later, Roy raised some pertinent points for the separatists to ponder. She argued that the Kashmiris should join protest movements against injustices all across India and not care only about their own cause. She also demanded to know what kind of state the separatists envisage  whether the minorities, like the Pandits, would have equal rights and made to feel a sense of belonging in Kashmir, unlike now.

As the crowd lapped up each word Roy spoke, I felt proud that our democracy has become mature enough to allow leaders of radical movements to express themselves in the very heart of India. But my pride ebbed when Geelani began to speak  a handful of protesters began to raise cries of Bharat Mata ki jai, unfurl the tricolour and make threatening advances towards the stage. They were asked to listen peacefully or leave. Ultimately, the police escorted them out.

Geelani, the incorrigible hawk, appealed to India to talk to Kashmiris in the language of insaniyat. Responding to Roys query, he said an independent Kashmir will grant equal rights to all. He reiterated his demand for a referendum in the undivided J&K, promising to abide by the verdict, even if it went in Indias favour. He expressed hope of India becoming a superpower, outstripping even the US and China.

This was what I heard and saw. But the story in the media was quiet different  there was only the heckling and humiliation of Geelani and Arundhati Roy.

That the Kashmir story has an alternative narrative, which Kaks Jashn-e-Azadi depicts and the seminar in Delhi fleetingly touched upon, needs to be told to Indias masses without hecklers hijacking the agenda.


Half stories, half truths - Hindustan Times

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## roach

Interesting read, I would like to see this documentary.

There is much more in Kashmir than meets the eye. My brother-in-law just got posted out of J&K- was participating in CI ops. He says "Koi nahi chahta ki insurgency khatam ho, dono sides ki apni bahut matlab hai isme."


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## Last Hope

Do you have a link for the documentery?
If yes, please i would like to have that!

Seems like qiute interestinG!


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## KS

Areesh said:


> Yeah right you think *I was expecting some sane attitude from Bharatis* and fan boys present on this forum. Or if we care about the comments of Indians about a news.



Lol bhai.....You get what you give.

Asking for something that you can't exhibit is unfair on your part.


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## KS

GUNNER said:


> In this charged atmosphere, the problem began when Roy began to speak. She was heckled, for ignoring the injustices against Kashmiri Hindus, as she blasted the Indian State. *The taunts of the hecklers, numbering just a dozen,* were drowned in the thunderous applause of the majority, which wanted the seminar to continue.



So the just demands of the Kashmiri Pandits (referred to as 'hecklers') becomes "taunting" while the hate speech becomes a call for justice.

Isnt it a bit unfair on the parts of the Pandits to be labelled as such,especially given the conditions they underwent in the early 90s where this saint Gellani didn do as much as lift a finger to save them.





GUNNER said:


> As the crowd lapped up each word Roy spoke, I felt proud that our democracy has become mature enough to allow leaders of radical movements to express themselves in the very heart of India. But my pride ebbed when Geelani began to speak  *a handful of protesters began to raise cries of Bharat Mata ki jai, unfurl the tricolour* and make threatening advances towards the stage. They were asked to listen peacefully or leave. Ultimately, the police escorted them out.



Did the author know what the "mature" audience were shouting in a equal frenzy - "Azadi ka matlab kya - la ilaha illallah".So that is justified.But unfurling the national flag and proudly saying "Bharat mata ki Jai" becomes unruly and something to be ashamed of. 

A true example of biased journalism.


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## GUNNER

Karthic Sri said:


> A true example of biased journalism.



It's an opinion piece Karthic. Not news.

You may disagree with the author's opinion.

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## indushek

Machoman said:


> Pretty sick idea you got man.



What are your thoughts about the post right above yours, i guess it must have pleased u immensely??


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## Awesome

Pakistan News Service - PakTribune

Obama must meet Kashmiri leadership



> NEW YORK: Former prime minister of Azad Kashmir Barrister Sultan Mehmood has asked US President Barrack Obama to meet Kashmiri leadership during his forthcoming visit to India to find a solution to the 63-year-old dispute between two hostile nuclear neighbours i.e. India and Pakistan.
> 
> Addressing a protest rally and later talking to our sources in front of United Building here on Wednesday afternoon, Barrister Sultan said the real issue in the sub-continent was the issue of right of self-determination of Kashmiri people. President Obama should talk to Kashmiri leaders and find ways to sort it out as peace cannot be established in the region without resolving the Kashmir dispute.
> 
> The protest rally was attended by a large number of Kashmiris living in New York. They were holding placards and raising slogans against Indian atrocities.
> 
> A number of Kashmiri leaders including Azeem Bakhish, Sardar Aleem and Sardar Imtiaz, announced on the occasion that Kashmir movement was indigenous and peaceful. They stressed the international community to assert the situation and ask the Indian government to pull out its troops from Kashmir. They said that it was moral obligation of the international community to honour the UN resolutions on Kashmir and put pressure on India to grant the right of self-determination to the people of Kashmir.



We're yet to see Obama make good on his promise for change. Although I only foresee Obama disappointing us, but political honesty demands that he meets the Kashmiri leadership and gauges first hand knowledge of the issues that marr the Pak-India relationship.

He once himself said that the solution to Afghanistan lies in Kashmir, can he walk his talk?


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## KS

GUNNER said:


> It's an opinion piece Karthic. Not news.
> 
> You may disagree with the author's opinion.



Thanks for clarifying.

BTW Yes,I disagree strongly with the author.


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## GUNNER

Karthic Sri said:


> BTW Yes,I disagree strongly with the author.



Yes, that's pretty obvious Karthic  !


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## LaBong

> In this charged atmosphere, the problem began when Roy began to speak. She was heckled, for ignoring the injustices against Kashmiri Hindus, as she blasted the Indian State. The taunts of the hecklers, numbering just a dozen, were drowned in the thunderous applause of the majority, which wanted the seminar to continue.





> As the crowd lapped up each word Roy spoke, I felt proud that our democracy has become mature enough to allow leaders of radical movements to express themselves in the very heart of India. But my pride ebbed when Geelani began to speak &#8212; a handful of protesters began to raise cries of Bharat Mata ki jai, unfurl the tricolour and make threatening advances towards the stage. They were asked to listen peacefully or leave. Ultimately, the police escorted them out.



I don't agree with this part. Those crowds had as much right to protest as did Arundhuti or Geelani to question Indian state, and when their protest reached beyond peaceful means, they were escorted out by security personnel. Why most sensible persons fail to see the both parts of coin? :s 

Also 'handful of protester' is a stupid and majoritarian argument, those Kashmiris shouting for Azadi are handful as well compared to rest of India's population. 

Rest of the article is balanced.


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## Hulk

Dance said:


> Compared to BR and all the other indian forums out there, this one is the most civilized and tolerant.
> 
> Just look at the number of indians on this forum, if this was an indian forum almost all the Pakistanis would have been banned by now.



Sorry to post offtopic but could not resist.
I am not a member of BR since they do not allow free email ids for registration. I have been there and found that they generally discuss in very civilized manner *on topic*. I have hardly seen any bashing that PDF member often quote.

About Pakistani's getting banned on Indian forums, I think I know the reason. Every countries forum has some baise in favor of locals, like here as well. When Indians talk here, they know the limit and discuss within limit. What Pakistani's do in Indian forums is cannot control their limit and gets banned. It's more about being in limits.

P.S. Mods, I am just responding to questions often asked.


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## Hafizzz

> Arundhati Roy called a traitor for Kashmiri rights plea
> Arundhati Roy called a traitor for Kashmiri rights plea - Asia, World - The Independent
> 
> The Booker prize-winning writer Arundhati Roy has made a strident defence of comments she made over the disputed territory of Kashmir after the Indian government threatened to arrest her for sedition.
> 
> The authorities in Delhi have taken legal advice over whether to bring charges against the novelist and activist after she said Kashmir had never been an "integral part of India".
> 
> "Even the Indian government has accepted this. Why are we trying to change this now?" she added, at a public meeting, at which one of the other speakers was veteran separatist leader, Syed Ali Shah Geelani.
> 
> The comments of Ms Roy were immediately seized on by political opposition, which demanded she be charged. Law minister, Veerappa Moily, said while India enjoyed freedom of speech, "it can't violate the patriotic sentiments of the people".
> 
> But Ms Roy, writing from Srinagar, the largest town in the Kashmir valley and the scene of numerous deaths of protesters this year, said she had only given voice to what millions of people in Kashmir had been saying for a long time.
> 
> "Pity the nation that has to silence its writers for speaking their minds," she said. "Pity the nation that needs to jail those who ask for justice while communal killers, mass murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists and those who prey on the poorest of the poor, roam free."
> 
> Ms Roy's comments come after the deaths of dozens of protesters in the Kashmir valley since new demonstrations for autonomy erupted in June. The once-independent kingdom has been fought over since 1947 when its Hindu ruler decided the Muslim-majority state should join independent India, rather than the newly-created Pakistan. India and Pakistan have gone to war over the area on three occasions.
> 
> An insurgency that gathered pace after India rigged elections in 1987, combined with an unrelenting response from the Indian authorities that has transformed Kashmir into one of the most militarised places on the planet, has led to the deaths of more than 70,000 people. Most Hindus were forced out or fled.
> 
> Ms Roy added: "I spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one of the most brutal military occupations in the world, for Kashmiri pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of their homeland; for dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I visited on garbage heaps; for the Indian poor who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who are now learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police state."
> 
> Her comments come as Indian authorities have dispatched a team of interlocutors to speak with separatists in Kashmir, among them Mr Geelani, whose calls for strikes often brings Srinagar to a standstill.
> 
> The state's chief minister, Omar Abdullah, has seen the momentum slip from his hands. He has also been widely criticised for failing to control the violence.
> 
> The threat to charge Ms Roy comes after the campaign group, Reporters without Borders, listed India in 122nd place in latest its annual press freedom report. It said the position of the world's largest democracy had slipped 17 places, partly due to the situation in Kashmir where "security forces... sometimes crack down hard on media".
> 
> Ms Roy last night received the support of English PEN, which campaigns for free expression worldwide. The group's president, Lisa Appignanesi, said: "Since June, Kashmiri journalists and broadcasters attempting to report on unrest in Indian-administered Kashmir have been subject to violence and gagging. Arundhati Roy has now stepped forward to draw the world's attention to the plight of Kashmiris.
> 
> "The truth of what is happening in Kashmir needs to be told," she said. "Brutality by the state and the silencing of reporters is no option for a modern India."



How dare you call a person fighting for Human Rights a "traitor" ?

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## Markus

Hafizzz said:


> How dare you call a person fighting for Human Rights a "traitor" ?



A person who doles out Bull$hits against one's own country is called a TRAITOR.

GET IT.

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## Awesome

Why not try all the Azaadi calling protesting Kashmiris for treason too then? Why just her? Because she's famous?

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## Imran Khan

she is BS from every angle i am wondering what these days pakistani select worst and more worst elected wow.

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## Awesome

Imran Khan said:


> she is BS from every angle i am wondering what these days pakistani select worst and more worst elected wow.


She is not Pakistani nor a Pakistani elect


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## Bhairava

Asim Aquil said:


> Why not try all the Azaadi calling protesting Kashmiris for treason too then? *Why just her? *Because she's famous?



There is a difference between Separatists and Fools (I wont call her a traitor,She is not worth it.)

The separatists are not doing what they are to get any international acclaim/awards/brownie points etc.

*They have some valid issues that needs to be addressed withing the ambits of the Indian constitution.*

Now coming to Mrs.Suzanne Roy,the only ambition that she has is to be in the attention and to get publicity (no problem if its negative or positive) as long as it is is publicity.

She never addresses to the Indian masses....rather to the elite,hyper-educated,ultra-liberals sitting in Manhattan and discussing nothing worthwile,yet can give Prizes to whomever they feel is upholding Humanity.

I suggest you go through this thread.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/78284-algebra-infinite-fundamentalism.html

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## marcos98

i strongly suggest a sub-forum for arundathi roy,
now that she's the pakistans favourite. 


seriously...
Before condemning the Indian state and government ( always our perpetual soft targets ) for its &#8220; brutal ways&#8221; and mocking India&#8217;s freedom and democracy in a public platform , Ms Roy needs to do some serious introspection on her much-postured predilections on Kashmir&#8217;s Azaadi . A lesson in history might help, including contemporary politics.

case rested , way too many threads on this subjects (cant keep track!!)


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## Hyde

Markus said:


> A person who doles out Bull$hits against one's own country is called a TRAITOR.
> 
> GET IT.


Naa don't agree with your post,
Come to Europe, criticize your own country, you will get rewards in return

Labelling her a Traitor? ------- oh well that only happens in India and Indian subcontinent! 

================




> But Ms Roy, writing from Srinagar, the largest town in the Kashmir valley and the scene of numerous deaths of protesters this year, said she had only given voice to what millions of people in Kashmir had been saying for a long time.

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## Markus

I donno why some ppl feel she is "very" famous.

She has won the Booker prize and has got some fame but that's not really too much.

There are many other famous and more popular Indians out there.

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## roach

I personally wouldn't classify her as a traitor. She is outspoken and virulently anti-establishment- a bit like the 60s hippie anti-Vietnam war types that smoked pot all the time and called soldiers baby-killers.

One tends to respect the views of a public figure, if she/he shows some semblance of balance- by that I mean if one can understand the other side's POV. The best word I can use to describe her is RABID.

She makes a lot of sense at times, but she needs to learn how to curb her virulence if she wants educated people in India to take her seriously.

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## Awesome

Gounder said:


> There is a difference between Separatists and Fools (I wont call her a traitor,She is not worth it.)
> 
> The separatists are not doing what they are to get any international acclaim/awards/brownie points etc.
> 
> *They have some valid issues that needs to be addressed withing the ambits of the Indian constitution.*
> 
> Now coming to Mrs.Suzanne Roy,the only ambition that she has is to be in the attention and to get publicity (no problem if its negative or positive) as long as it is is publicity.
> 
> She never addresses to the Indian masses....rather to the elite,hyper-educated,ultra-liberals sitting in Manhattan and discussing nothing worthwile,yet can give Prizes to whomever they feel is upholding Humanity.
> 
> I suggest you go through this thread.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/78284-algebra-infinite-fundamentalism.html


Separatists want to separate, they don't give a damn about the Indian constitution. Indian constitution is as important as the daily comic strip in the papers. 

Main thing is simple, once the population you are calling your own does not acknowledge you as their own, your rules stop being applied onto them.

If you don't want to fight on Kashmir and want to discuss things, then you have to start with the assumption that the Indian constitution is inapplicable to the Kashmir issue and only the wishes of the masses are what counts

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## Bhairava

Zaki said:


> Naa don't agree with your post,
> Come to Europe, criticize your own country, *you will get rewards *in return



And that exactly is what she wants - Nobel Peace Prize - for being the upholder of Humanity in India.



Zaki said:


> Labelling her a Traitor? ------- oh well that only happens in India and Indian subcontinent!



Arey bhaai..we are all from the Indian sub-continent..they why u guys praising her?


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## Markus

Zaki said:


> Naa don't agree with your post,
> Come to Europe, criticize your own country, you will get rewards in return
> 
> Labelling her a Traitor? ------- oh well that only happens in India and Indian subcontinent!



I have not heard from her mouth any sympathy for the soldiers who get killed at the hands of the terrorists.

Whats nonsense that lady is talking abt Kashmir?

Why the hell is the Indian media and government even entertaining this bull$hit from her?

Just ignore her. That's it.

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## SpArK

She is not a traitor. She is a fame seeking person who likes to be in the limelight all the time.

Some people find its good to glorify her and describe her as truth seeker for the words she has spoken, but will revert back the decision if she by any chance says something stupid against them.

Strange the human mind. Is n't it?


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## Bhairava

Asim Aquil said:


> Separatists want to separate, they don't give a damn about the Indian constitution. Indian constitution is as important as the daily comic strip in the papers.
> 
> Main thing is simple, once the population you are calling your own does not acknowledge you as their own, your rules stop being applied onto them.
> 
> If you don't want to fight on Kashmir and want to discuss things, then you have to start with the assumption that the Indian constitution is inapplicable to the Kashmir issue and only the wishes of the masses are what counts



^^ Offtopic.

I am not speaking as to what perception Kashmiri Muslims have for the Indian constitution.

They have some grouses(right or wrong) and they protest for that.They dont protest just because they can get some awards on an international fora

But Arundatti does exactly for that and therein lies the diffference

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Shes not that into Indian Barhamins and there misogynist mindset ...!!!


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## SpArK

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Shes not that into Indian Barhamins and there misogynist mindset ...!!!



What is this barhimins??/

And if u are talking about Brahmin community who constitutes just 4.32% of the total population,well i am not in a position to comment over it as I am not that expert like you on their mindsets.

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## LaBong

Asim Aquil said:


> Why not try all the Azaadi calling protesting Kashmiris for treason too then? Why just her? Because she's famous?



How many times do I need to remind people that 'Freedom of Expression' of Kashmiri people is different than 'Freedom of Expression' of rest of India. For more detail read-up article 370 from wikipedia. 

Gahh after a while it gets annoying repeating the same argument again and again!

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## srsrsr

Its now fashion in India, for the people like Roy to sit across TV panels, interviews and comment about 'every-issue-in-india'. Yes, 'every-issue-in-India'. The trend started with the NBA Medha Patkar (she participates in every procession anywhere in India. This has become her full time profession) and now everyone has become expert the guardian of humanity.

Beauty of Roy is that she at the most issues statements and nothing, before hopping over to next issue and in reality she doesnt give damn about Kashmiris (or maoists, tribals etc). She goes with media flow, whatever hot topic is.

Atmost, she is an ignorable entity

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## flex

*one soln is*
give us zardari,we can use him management schools.
take the AR ,she can play a good role in pakistan while negotiating with ttp.

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## Hulk

BENNY said:


> What is this barhimins??/
> 
> And if u are talking about Brahmin community who constitutes just 4.32% of the total population,well i am not in a position to comment over it as I am not that expert like you on their mindsets.



He is still working on DOS, while people are moved to Windows 7.

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## Peshwa

Areesh said:


> Peshwa
> 
> I think you missed the point. It doesn't matter what Indians do or what not. What matter and what positive about this news is that after all the years of ranting about the Indian integrity with Kashmir some Indians have started to talk about Azadi and solution of Kashmir issue outside Indian constitution.
> 
> Nobody is saying that Indian parliament is going made the amendments in the constitution tomorrow or day after tomorrow. What's necessary is that at least some Indians have started to smell the coffee.



Of course Areesh.....but this isnt new, this has always existed....

This is a given.....In a multi faceted country like India, there are people with a whole spectrum of views....some that are possibly against the unity of the nation....
I mean take the Khalistanis, NE speratists etc.... Arundhati Roy being the prime example of a prominent Indian with differing views than the majority...

But the point is that these people do not represent the majority....and thats the key and beauty of a democracy.... the shaping of people's ideas and thoughts has a huge impact on the foreign policy as well as politics.....India's Kashmir policy is a reflection of Indian sentiments towards Kashmir.....

Now let me say something that you probably will not like hearing....

Most Indians I feel have become desnsitized to the Kashmiri struggle mostly due to the political aspect of the situation....ie. Pakistans involvement.....I strongly feel that a lot of people sympathize with Kashmiris...but because Pakistan is a party to this conflict, it makes it hard for Indians to do anything to appease Pakistan...

Harsh but True....


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## rubyjackass

All this hate will go once people start to sit down and think. And for the fans of Arundhati... don't worry nothing will happen to her. It is just that some people are pissed at her. Enough people support her voicing of views if not the views as such. 
Hey if some Indian is able to show Kashmiris that we sympathize with them, then thats an achievement.

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## para-site

These are good read in this context:

An open letter to Arundhati Roy | Blog of Pagal Patrakar

Truth hurts (follow up to the Open Letter to Arundhati Roy) | Blog of Pagal Patrakar


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## Irfan Baloch

Markus said:


> I have not heard from her mouth any sympathy for the soldiers who get killed at the hands of the terrorists.
> 
> Whats nonsense that lady is talking abt Kashmir?
> 
> Why the hell is the Indian media and government even entertaining this bull$hit from her?
> 
> Just ignore her. That's it.




take a chill pill
she has the guts to criticize the own side
thats something really remarkable

Indians always say they dont care what the world say about their treatment of Kashmiris. now its very citizens are criticising and you cant digest it?

Its not bullshit if it doesnt suit your side. Your attitude is the first step towards the decline the absolute dismissal of reality and snubbing the criticism is what leads to the fall of empires in history.

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## Gentle Typhoon

She's just 'Scorpio' - stubborn, emotional, obsessive, good looking, Secretive. Just like Indira Gandhi. Both November born Scorpio.


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## LaBong

Irfan Baloch said:


> take a chill pill
> she has the guts to criticize the own side
> thats something really remarkable
> 
> Indians always say they dont care what the world say about their treatment of Kashmiris. now its very citizens are criticising and you cant digest it?
> 
> Its not bullshit if it doesnt suit your side. Your attitude is the first step towards the decline the absolute dismissal of reality and snubbing the criticism is what leads to the fall of empires in history.



He has as much right to be disgusted at Arundhuti as Arundhuti has to criticise State of India. 

We don't care the world, true. But all this debate, questioning the realm of 'freedom of expression', reaching at different opinions on it, in all layers of Indian society prove that, we do care our citizens concern and our democracy is still vibrant!

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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> Lol bhai.....You get what you give.
> 
> Asking for something that you can't exhibit is unfair on your part.



I didn't get anything while on the other hand two Indians who were ranting on this threads are banned for good.


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## Peshwa

Asim Aquil said:


> Separatists want to separate, they don't give a damn about the Indian constitution. Indian constitution is as important as the daily comic strip in the papers.
> 
> *Main thing is simple, once the population you are calling your own does not acknowledge you as their own, your rules stop being applied onto them.*
> If you don't want to fight on Kashmir and want to discuss things, then you have to start with the assumption that the Indian constitution is inapplicable to the Kashmir issue and only the wishes of the masses are what counts



The population we are calling Indian is because we claim the land....

We dont want any forced marriages.....which is why Kashmiris can be "Azad" if they need to on the west side if need be.....

Indian constitution applies to the land.....the people can choose to relocate as did our ancestors in 47....Kashmiris are nothign special to deserve a special place....

Arundhati Roy may not be a traitor, but her views should be limited to Human Rights and NOT Politics...
Talking about India's legitimacy over Kashmir is none of her business and she is now talking like a politician which is beyond her realm .....She did not fight to win it nor has she spent her blood to secure it.... her pathetic words are NOT going to change the scenario of Kashmir....Simple!

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## RobbieS

I have mentioned in previous threads that Azaadi should be discussed. If discussing it brings the Kashmiris and the State to the table, so be it. At least it will get them talking.


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## Peshwa

Irfan Baloch said:


> take a chill pill
> she has the guts to criticize the own side
> thats something really remarkable
> 
> *Indians always say they dont care what the world say about their treatment of Kashmiris. now its very citizens are criticising and you cant digest it?*
> 
> Its not bullshit if it doesnt suit your side. Your attitude is the first step towards the decline the absolute dismissal of reality and snubbing the criticism is what leads to the fall of empires in history.



Being a democracy and a multi faceted one at that....We expect people within India to have differing opinions....

But as long as the majority favors Kashmirs ascession to India....the current status quo cannot be changed....

In fact, in order for ANY political compromise on Kashmir has to be voted in within the framework of the Indian costitution....ie. Voted by the legislative assembly....something impossible due to the size of the opposition...

The other option is military ascession that has been tried in the past to absolute failure....

So YES....any political solution has to be within the framework of our constitution...

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## Tshering22

Here's an idea for all Pakistani friends: Why not welcome her to Pakistan and grant her your citizenship? We'd be glad to get rid of her.

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## srsrsr

You guys really dont understand the bigger plot here. Its well proven strategy by Indian Govt to conduct these missions/interlocution etc and buy time - best healer of all problems. Agitations are going to settle down bit and life is normal in few months. Interlocution may not going to end up with any action,whatever they find ( if at all made public - uncensored)


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## jayron

Areesh said:


> Peshwa
> 
> I think you missed the point. It doesn't matter what Indians do or what not. What matter and what positive about this news is that after all the years of ranting about the Indian integrity with Kashmir some Indians have started to talk about Azadi and solution of Kashmir issue outside Indian constitution.
> 
> Nobody is saying that Indian parliament is going made the amendments in the constitution tomorrow or day after tomorrow. What's necessary is that at least some Indians have started to smell the coffee.



I agree.. Don't you think the idea of getting rid of the problematic Kashmir would have struck at least some Indians? The reason is lame politics and pride. India maintaining a diplomatic stand of Kashmir is an integral part of the country and Pakistan caring more about Indian Kashmir than its own people. Both are fake if you ask me. Indians not dealing with the real issue and Pakistan showering the fake sympathy for the brotherhood.

I am happy the interlocutors are getting some headway and their statements seem close to what the reality on the ground is.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> I didn't get anything while on the other hand two Indians who were ranting on this threads are banned for good.



Isnt this supposed to be *Pakistan* Defence Forum ? 

Anyway lets not get offtopic here.


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## true_indian

BENNY said:


> What is this barhimins??/
> 
> And if u are talking about Brahmin community who constitutes just 4.32&#37; of the total population,well i am not in a position to comment over it as I am not that expert like you on their mindsets.



Pakistanis keep talking about Brahmans. I didn't know they have such control on India. At least not in my state (ANDHRA). Is it different in other states? Are they forcing anyone towards Hindutva or discriminating others? Did it ever happen to fellow Indians on this forum.


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## FreekiN

*BJP demands Arundhati Roy's exile over Kashmir remarks*

Madhya Pradesh BJP President Prabhat Jha today urged Centre to exile author-social activist Arundhati Roy from the country for her recent remarks on Kashmir.

Jha in a letter to Union home minister P Chidambaram said that the author be banished from the country and she and the people working with her be tried under charges of sedition.

Jha also demanded that Arundhati should be stripped off all the awards and honours bestowed upon her by the government.

"Arudhati has betrayed the country," he said, adding that he has written the letter not in the capacity of state BJP president but as an Indian.

"It is shocking that such an able home minister isn't able to make out the difference between sedition and freedom of expression," the letter said.

In a speech in Delhi and Srinagar recently, the author reportedly advocated freedom for Kashmir and described India as coloniser.


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## xenia

to b honest there is nothing new abt BJPs idiotic demands..the endless list..2 yrs back when she wrote her article _azadi_, she clearly said that shez not advocating kashmirs merger with pakistan..to her that was not a good option..all she has talked about is indian atrocities n thats nothing new..how on earth can she b termed a traitor?
oh forgot the BJP charge sheet..huh


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## xenia

btw how about awarding her next Nobel peace prize?

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## nForce

Zaki said:


> lol, seems like you have bookmarked some of DaRk WaVe's posts
> 
> and sorry but we have already done more than our capabilities..... compare Pakistan's low economy with such a high population with any country of the world....we have progressed better than rest/most of the world - under our limited resources
> 
> Start counting from Defence to each and every economic field.... We are way below the chart in terms of GDP, but we are way above the chart in terms of technology and its sister fields. We are the 9th largest English speaking nation of the world and you know only high level of education peoples can speak English in Pakistan... so just take a guess about the level of education we have achieved in past 60 years.... in 1951 only 16&#37; peoples in Pakistan were considered educated, in 1998 the figure was near 44% and now its 60% + in such a short period considering the old and uneducated generations + childrens living in the country
> 
> And I find nothing wrong by having sympathy with above mentioned nations.....We are at least better than our neighbouring nations who is always poking nose in others internal matters.... and always crying about anything we buy from the world.....even if that is a WC for the toilet....we only have sympathy with other nations but never interferes in others matters.....
> 
> so by your above logic ----------- Indian Government is more Pakistani than the Indians itself




Zaki my friend,if you are thinking that I have come down to the level of cheap flaming by making some cheap comments then you cannot be anymore mistaken...

Firstly,I am not comparing India with Pakistan.We both know very well that the two countries function in a different manner.While some similarities may exist between the societies ,the differences are far too great.

What exactly I want to point out is there is something seriously wrong with the sentiments in the western side of the border of my country.The idea of hate is far too great.And it is not just with India,it is with many others.

Hate,is a complex and very powerful feeling my friend.Hate calls for 'Revenge'.And 'Revenge',happens to be one of the oldest and one of the strongest form of motivator for a man.It is a dangerous feeling to deal with,as it makes a man go delusional and can be tampered with.
Tampering of emotion,is something done by many Pakistani leaders since its creation,you may disagree.

The point that I tried to make in my previous post is about this tampering of emotion and thereby ideology.The idea of hate,specially against its neighbour is so deep rooted that it has found its way even in the textbooks.We have seen threads not long ago on that..

I don't know Zaki,but sometimes I feel there are powerful forces in motion in Pakistan who are hell bent in baptizing the youth of Pakistan with the idea of hatred even before they actually know whom they are hating or why they are hating for......

This hatred has kept a significant portion of Pakistani youth totally out of focus,where the prime focus should be own country,own society,own home....

You know better about Pakistani society than me.I was merely talking about what is being felt outside Pakistan,without being biased.

For me,and for many Indians like me,"*Charity begins at home.*"


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Strikes in OSJK should serve as wake up call​*
TopNews 
Written by KMS 
Thursday, 28 October 2010 17:57 







Srinagar, October 28, 2010: Chairman of All Parties Hurriyat Conference, Syed Ali Shah Geelani has emphasised that the observance of the Black Day, yesterday, should serve as a wake up call for the international community that should come forward in an effective way to resolve the Kashmir dispute, without any further delay.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani in an interview in Srinagar, today, asked India to shun its rigid stance on Jammu and Kashmir and allow Kashmiris to exercise their inalienable right of Self-Determination. APHC Chairman Syed Ali Shah Geelani had said that the ongoing "Quit Kashmir Movement" will continue till its logical end.

On the other hand, the authorities have invoked the draconian law, Public Safety Act against APHC leader, Yasmeen Raja detaining her in Srinagar Central Jail. The law authorises the administration to detain any person for a period up to two years without producing him to any court. Over 300 Hurriyat leaders and activists are presently languishing in jails under this draconian law.Hundreds of people staged protests in Palhalan against the molestation of two women by Indian forces.

The troops barged into the houses in the area subjecting the people to brute force and vandalising the household goods. Indian paramilitary personnel resorted to baton charge and tear smoke shells to break up anti-India demonstrations in Bandipore and at Nagam in Chadoora.

After remaining under continued curfew for a month, the residents of Palhalan in Pattan witnessed molestation and an attempt to **** two women by Indian forces.

The personnels of Indian forces, who barged into the house of one Ghulam Rasool Sheikh at Raipora Palhallan, smashed windows and doors and beat up the inmates and ransacked the house goods, the locals said.

Sheikhs son, Sajjad Ahmad told media men that Indian forces, without any provocation, forcibly entered their house. To save me from police my mother forced me to leave the house from the rare side. After hearing the screams of my mother and sister, I along with my neighbours came rushing to my house. I saw my mother and sister lying on the ground with forces personnels beating them ruthlessly, he said.

Sajjad said that had his father not been there, the personnels would have outraged the modesty of his mother and sister. My father received thrashing while protecting the chastity of my sister. He covered her and got fractures in arm and his right foot. Indian forces were trying to take my sister to the nearby Special Operations Group Camp, said wailing, Sajjad.

Sajjads 25-year-old sister is in deep shock. Everything is lost, she cried and fell unconscious. Sajjads wailing mother sitting besides her daughter is unwilling to talk. (Indian) Police have destroyed our family, she said after much persuasion.

Sajjad said police broke everything that came their way. Damage to the property is not the worry, but the molestation and attempt to **** is humiliating, Sajjad said.

Hundreds of people staged protests against the Indian police and paramilitary personnels for abusing and beating women.

The Tehreek-e-Hurriyat (TeH) Jammu and Kashmir has denounced the stepped up acts of Indian state terrorism in the territory.

The spokesman of Tehreek-e-Hurriyat in a statement issued in Srinagar said that Indian forces barged into the houses in Palhalan Pattan and subjected the inmates to brute force. The CRPF men molested the women and vandalised the household goods, he added.

He said that Indian police resorted to heavy lathi charge and tear gas shelling against the peaceful protestors in Nagam Chadoora who were protesting against the illegal detention of three innocent Kashmiri youth, Irfan, Imtiaz and Muddasar.

Condemning the gross human rights violations by Indian troops, he expressed concern over the deteriorating health of illegally detained Hurriyat leaders and activists including Muhammad Ashraf Sehrai, Mir Hafeez, Muhammad Rafiq Ghanai, Ayub Dar and others in the jails. The authorities have not provided them with sufficient medical facilities due to which they have developed various ailments, he maintained.

Senior APHC leader, Agha Syed Hassan Al-Moosvi, has condemned the imposition of curfew and restriction by the authorities across the territory. Agha Syed Hassan Al-Moosvi, who is under illegal house arrest, in a statement issued in Srinagar said that India could not alter the ground realities by using unethical and undemocratic tactics. The use of brute force by the occupation authorities cannot deter Kashmiris resolve to get freedom from Indian occupation, he added.

He said that the people of Kashmir had given matchless sacrifices for the freedom movement, which would not be allowed to go waste at any cost. Moosvi said that India had flouted the international laws by illegally occupying the territory.

Meanwhile, other pro-freedom parties have also denounced the illegal detentions, house arrests of Hurriyat leaders and activists and imposition of curfew in the territory by Indian forces. They appealed the world community and the international human rights organisations to take cognisance of rights abuses in the occupied valley.

The Jamaat-e-Islami (JI) of occupied Kashmir has said that Jammu and Kashmir is a disputed territory and the United Nations resolutions are evident of the fact.

The spokesman of Jamaat-e-Islami in a statement issued in Srinagar said that the longstanding dispute should be resolved according to the aspirations of the Kashmiri people.

He said that the Indian Home Ministry was hatching a conspiracy to implicate veteran Kashmiri Hurriyat leader, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, renowned Indian author and Booker prize-winner, Arundhati Roy and other speakers of a seminar held in New Delhi in false cases for their bold remarks on the Kashmir dispute.

The JI spokesman said that the people of Jammu and Kashmir were struggling for their inalienable right to Self-Determination.

The authorities booked APHC leader and Chairperson of Muslim Khawateen Markaz, Yasmeen Raja under draconian Public Safety Act (PSA) and lodged in Central Jail in Srinagar. Yasmeen Raja was arrested on Tuesday (October 26) during a raid on her house by policemen in Pampore.

The authorities at Srinagar Central Jail informed Yasmeen Raja that she had been booked under Public Safety Act, the spokesperson of Muslim Khawateen Markaz, told media men.

Strikes in OSJK should serve as wake up call

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## lionheart1

deleted wrong quote


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## lionheart1

Areesh said:


> Thanks. We would ukhad Kashmir from you.



Kashmir is integral part of India, and it reality. if your minister think pakistan is incomplete without kashmir why cant he wage a war and take it. one thing is sure a single inch of kashmir will not change hand without a war 

let see who will "ukhad" who's at war 
finally remember a number 90,000 who shamelessly............


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## Capt.Popeye

bark-the-truth.com???


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## DEXTOR

Omar1984 said:


> *Pakistan incomplete without freedom of Kashmir from India: Sumsam ​*
> Then according to his logic he needs to add one more line "Pakistan will remain incomplete FOREVER"

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## Jackdaws

"Black Day" to mark something you are not happy about? And then you complain about Obama not visiting Pakistan during his trip to India in 2010!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Jackdaws said:


> "Black Day" to mark something you are not happy about? And then you complain about Obama not visiting Pakistan!



Obama to Visit Pakistan in 2011 | News | English

Crawl an cry.....just dont troll.


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## Jackdaws

marcos98 said:


> is it just me or anyone else is noticing?
> the horde of india bashing threads going on.
> JK, arundati roy, poverty (and the usual specialities).
> must have something to do with the weather .
> 
> 
> kashmir WILL remain an indispensable part of India.
> anybody thinking otherwise , read my signature.




People tend to bash you when you are doing something right.


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## DEXTOR

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Obama to Visit Pakistan in 2011 | News | English
> 
> Crawl an cry.....just dont troll.



Can't you see who is crying??


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## Storm Force

Of course its incomplete.

Because India holds the the 5 rivers and all the water in the sub continent flows from Himlayers thru punjab & Kasshmir

Also Kashmir seperates Pak from China.

And its a beautful green vally with stunning veiws. 

ONE OF INDIA,S GREAT STATES


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## KS

xenia said:


> to b honest there is nothing new abt BJPs idiotic demands..the endless list..2 yrs back when she wrote her article _azadi_, she clearly said that *shez not advocating kashmirs merger with pakistan*..to her that was not a good option..all she has talked about is indian atrocities n thats nothing new..how on earth can she b termed a traitor?
> oh forgot the BJP charge sheet..huh



Then WTH did she share a dias with Gellani whose life's mission is acceding Kashmir to Pakistan ?

The BJP should file hundreds of FIRs all over the country and make her life miserable so that next time before she opens her trap she thinks thrice.



xenia said:


> btw how about awarding her next Nobel peace prize?



Arey yaar..all this drama-baazi and nautanki is for that only...She saw the Peace price going to Liu and suddenly decide that she too has a shot at that if she continue her antics.


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## Jackdaws

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Obama to Visit Pakistan in 2011 | News | English
> 
> Crawl an cry.....just dont troll.




Troll? You could have called it anything - "Unhappy Day"; "Freedom Day"; "Azaadi Day"; "India Sucks Day" - you chose to call it "Black Day" - I'd love your ministers to explain that to the African Ambassadors in your country when they try to garner support for Kashmir.


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## Jackdaws

I want to meet the man who married her in 1984. And is still married to her. If anyone deserves the Nobel Prize, it is him. I'd also give him an Oscar for Lifetime Achievement if I could. And a Booker.

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## SpArK

Jackdaws said:


> I want to meet the man who married her in 1984. And is still married to her. If anyone deserves the Nobel Prize, it is him. I'd also give him an Oscar for Lifetime Achievement if I could. And a Booker.








This is the poor soul. Pradeep Kishen , her second husband

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## SpArK

His jobs are mainly restricted to .

Walk the dog






and climb the trees

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## Peshwa

^^^^ They call em "tree huggers"...Khadi wearing wannabe hippies.....

Anyways...Whos judging...LOL!

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## pmukherjee

Well, I wouldn't go as far as to call her a traitor. But she is definitely doing a terrific job of jump starting her career which fizzled out after the the 'Booker' award so many years ago. The media has been extremely helpful to her in her endeavors, faithfully broadcasting every word she utters and staging talk shows to discuss her utterances. 
It is time the media realised that she is just a minor 'one book wonder' writer and a nobody, trying to garner publicity by making making anti-establishment comments and stopped giving her unnecessary air time. They should just leave her alone and spare us the agony.


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## misterme2

Unfortunately, what Miss Roy fails to realize is that the miserable situation she describes in Kashmir is a direct result of meddling neighbor who supports terrorism against India. As a result, the heavy handedness by the Indian Army may not be correct but it is what it is. Her support on Dalits got my respect but her opinion on Kashmir is just that, an opinion. She fails to acknowledge the plight of countless other Kashmiri minorities who suffered, yet no one fights for them. Section 360 or whatever should be immediately repealed and kashmir should formally be made a state. if certain groups of ppl are not happy then plaza leave the country of India because sooner or later we will not tolerate the atrocities committed by terrorists on innocent Indian ppl.


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## rubyjackass

Peshwa said:


> Of course Areesh.....but this isnt new, this has always existed....
> 
> This is a given.....In a multi faceted country like India, there are people with a whole spectrum of views....some that are possibly against the unity of the nation....
> I mean take the Khalistanis, NE speratists etc.... Arundhati Roy being the prime example of a prominent Indian with differing views than the majority...
> 
> But the point is that these people do not represent the majority....and thats the key and beauty of a democracy.... the shaping of people's ideas and thoughts has a huge impact on the foreign policy as well as politics.....India's Kashmir policy is a reflection of Indian sentiments towards Kashmir.....
> 
> Now let me say something that you probably will not like hearing....
> 
> Most Indians I feel have become desnsitized to the Kashmiri struggle mostly due to the political aspect of the situation....ie. Pakistans involvement.....I strongly feel that a lot of people sympathize with Kashmiris...but because Pakistan is a party to this conflict, it makes it hard for Indians to do anything to appease Pakistan...
> 
> Harsh but True....



Very nice post. Here lies the problem for India. Pakistan's heckling should not stop Indians from realizing the problems Kashmir faces and publicly showing sympathy for them. 

India should learn from Pakistan in this respect. Pakistan civil society and media publicly notes the killings in Balochistan despite the impunity with which army and other state organs act. So the cord which still connects Baloch from Pakistani mainstream, despite the thrashing on the otherside, is this sympathy. It does not matter what effect these pressure groups can bring on the military operation. All that matters is a little hope that they can live in the country with self respect.

On the other hand ultra nationalism of Indian media and the silence of civil society has alienated Kashmiris beyond the breaking point. Better late than never. Lest you will loose the already weak support you have in the valley. Remember they could live for 40 years with you. Still their protests were branded as foreign elements. What else can be expected... 


I mean imagine having a curfew every week and hearing gun shots as a routine. How are kids going to grow up there?


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## rubyjackass

@srsrsr : yeah fair enough. but what if it fails?! That is why it is better to go with a plan. The committees on Telangana and J&K are the best things MMS government did wrt Indian governance and political problems.


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## rubyjackass

Lol . nice one BENNY!


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## Hulk

Chod do isko, she does not deserve so much attention.


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## Capt.Popeye

BENNY said:


> His jobs are mainly restricted to .
> 
> Walk the dog




Wonder which of them leads a dog's life?


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## JonAsad

On topic: I agree, she is not a traitor.


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## Omar1984

Storm Force said:


> Of course its incomplete.
> 
> Because India holds the the 5 rivers and all the water in the sub continent flows from Himlayers thru punjab & Kasshmir
> 
> Also Kashmir seperates Pak from China.
> 
> And its a beautful green vally with stunning veiws.
> 
> ONE OF INDIA,S GREAT STATES




Pakistan already shares a border with China thanks to the part of Kashmir under Pakistan's control, but india is still separted from Central Asia even when having India Occupied Jammu & Kashmir.






Yes like all Muslim majority regions in South Asia, Kashmir is beautiful Masha'Allah.


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## Omar1984

*Black Day observed in UAE to protest Indian occupation in Kashmir ​*

ISLAMABAD, Oct 28 (APP): The Pakistani and Kashmiri community in UAE observed Black Day on October 27 signifying sustained solidarity of people and government of Pakistan with Kashmiri people who have been offering sacrifices persistently for their right of self-determination.The observance of Black Day is aimed at attracting the attention of the international community to the plight of Kashmiris due to the occupation of Kashmir by the Indian forces and ongoing Indian state terrorism and to the imperative need of resolution of Kashmir issue to the satisfaction of Kashmiri people.


A large number of Kashmiris residing in UAE assembled in the premises of the Consulate General of Pakistan, Dubai to show their solidarity with their brethren back home and also to condemn the action of Indian troops for usurping the territory of Kashmir in 1947 without any legal or moral justification. 

In his remarks regarding the observance of the Black Day, the Consul General of Pakistan Tariq Iqbal Soomro said that the objective of the observance of October 27 as a Black Day is to draw world attention towards the miseries of the Kashmiri people and to appeal to the international community to take cognizance of the urgency of resolving the Kashmir dispute in accordance with the Kashmiris aspirations. 

He said that it is also aimed at sending a loud and clear message to India that Kashmiris reject its illegal occupation of their soil and that they would continue their struggle till they achieved their inalienable right to self-determination. 

The Consul General said that the people of Kashmir rejected Indias illegal occupation right from the day one and started a forceful movement against it. He said that ironically, India itself had approached the UN Security Council seeking help to settle the Kashmir dispute and successive resolutions passed by the Security Council nullified Indian invasion and occupation of Kashmir.
He further said that Pakistan is keen to get the longstanding Kashmir dispute resolved through a process of dialogue and engagement. It was with this resolve that Pakistan has always insisted on a Composite Dialogue process with India. 

On the occasion, Kashmiri leaders also addressed the gathering, highlighting the significance of the day and called upon the Government of India for the cessation of hostilities in Indian held Kashmir as well as find solution of Kashmir dispute in accordance with the wishes of Kashmiri people. 

The speakers re-affirmed the resolution of Kashmiris to continue the liberation struggle despite Indian State terrorism, till the objective is achieved.

They highlighted the importance of this day and stressed upon the international community to immediately intervene and stop the Indian forces from brutal killing of innocent Kashmiris. They vowed that the recent surge in the liberation movement in Indian occupied Kashmir has unnerved India.

Despite the killing of over one hundred innocent civilians by Indian police and troops, which started with the murdering of an 11th class student, Tufail Ahmad Matoo in Srinagar on June 11, this year, the movement is gaining momentum with every passing day.

They said that Kashmiris would not take respite till they achieve their cherished goal of liberation from Indias illegal occupation of their motherland. 

The ceremony started on a note of condolence on the sad demise of the Ruler of Ras Al Khaimah Sheikh Saqr Bin Mohammed Al Qassimi. The Consul General of eulogized the meritorious services of the late ruler and prayed for the eternal peace for the departed soul. He said that people and government of Pakistan share this great loss with the people, governments and Royal Families of the United Arab Emirates.Fateha was also offered for the late Sheikh Saqr Bin Mohammed Al Qassimi on this occasion.

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## Omar1984

*Settlement of Kashmir issue not far away, says OIC aide*






Abdullah Alam, OIC secretary-general's special representative on Jammu and Kashmir, speaks at a Kashmir Black Day meeting in Jeddah on Wednesday night. (AN photo) 


By ARAB NEWS 

Published: Oct 29, 2010 00:15 Updated: Oct 29, 2010 00:41 

JEDDAH: The Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) believes that the people of Jammu and Kashmir, after so many years of suffering, deserve full respect for their legitimate right to self-determination. 

Surely, its (settlement) not far away, Abdullah Alam, assistant secretary general and special representative of the OIC secretary-general on the Jammu & Kashmir dispute, told a Kashmir Black Day event organized by Pakistan International School-English section at Pakistan Consul General Abdul Salik Khans residence on Wednesday night.

As we all acknowledge the great importance of a peaceful solution to the Jammu and Kashmir dispute, we commend the commitment of Pakistan to the peace process and hope that India will show the same attitude in order to give the peace process a significant and positive push forward, Alam said.

He added that the OIC is examining all existing possibilities and authorities to help people gain their rights. The permanent inclusion of the Jammu and Kashmir issue on the agenda of OICs summits and ministerial sessions is a clear indication of the Islamic organizations strong support and continuous solidarity with its people.

We are now trying to explore, through the OIC offices in New York and Geneva, the Human Rights Council, international human rights groups and humanitarian organizations to prevent further violations of the human rights of the Kashmiri people and work toward helping them realize their right to self-determination, Alam said.

Other speakers, including Muhammad Umar Badahdah of the World Assembly of Muslim Youth, the consul general and members of the Kashmir Committee, explained the significance of commemorating the Kashmir Black Day every year on Oct. 27 and said in recent months there had been an alarming increase in violation of human rights and indiscriminate use of force against Kashmiris in Indian Kashmir, which has resulted in the killing and injury of dozens of people. It was on Oct. 27, 1947, two months after the end of British occupation of South Asia, that Indian forces entered Jammu and Kashmir and they have since been violating all established principles of law, justice, morality and politics, the consul general said.

The occupying power must realize that bullets and batons are not an answer to the demand of fundamental rights. Kashmiris can never accept their subjugation. Its time to start a meaningful dialogue with Pakistan for the resolution of this longstanding dispute, the consul general added.

On its part, Pakistan is fully committed to a just and peaceful resolution of the Kashmir dispute in accordance with the UN Security Council resolutions and, most importantly, the aspirations of the Kashmiri people.



Settlement of Kashmir issue not far away, says OIC aide - Arab News

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## gubbi

Black Day? Dang! And here I was thinking I missed a Solar Eclipse!


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## Omar1984

*Troops are on killing spree: Malik
​*

Srinagar, Oct 28: Stating the blood of Kashmiri martyrs will not go waste; JKLF Chairman Mohammad Yasin Malik Thursday alleged that police and the Indian para-troopers are on killing spree in Kashmir.


In a statement issued here Malik visited the Humhama to express solidarity with family members of the persons killed in police and CRPF firing. 

While addressing a gathering he said that in four months, police and troopers have killed more than hundred people in Kashmir. This killing spree is still on. In addition to it, innocent students are being book under draconian laws. The Imam of the Masjid, Rafiq Fazili who is only 20 years of age has been booked under PSA, Malik said.

He alleged that on one hand India is talking about a dialogue process and on the other hand has declared a war against the people. The oppression will not deter the resolve of the people. Kashmiris want total freedom which has been accepted by the worlds most important organizations as well, he said.

Earlier, Malik along with other party leaders visited the family members of 55 year old Ghulam Rasool Tantry. He was killed while he was ferrying an injured into a cab, Malik said.

Malik also visited the family members of Nisar Ahmad Kuchay and Aadil Gaffar and expressed sympathies with their family members.

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## Omar1984

*Kashmir Black Day observed in Canada ​*

ISLAMABAD, Oct 28 (APP): Pakistan High Commission, Ottawa held an event on Thursday in connection with the Kashmir Black Day to express solidarity with the people of Kashmir who are struggling for their right of self determination.Addressing the function the key note speaker Mr. Scott Taylor said in 1948, Canadian General Andrew McNaughton was the President of the UN Security Council which passed the Resolution proposing the right to self determination for the people of Kashmir.Canada needs to play a more active role in the resolution of the Kashmir issue and in peacekeeping there, he said.Mr. Scott Taylor is the Editor and publisher of Canadian military (magazine) and writer of numerous books on conflicts in Afghanistan and Central Asian States, says a message received here on Thursday from Pakistan High Commission, Ottawa.

High Commissioner Akbar Zeb in his message read on the occasion said Pakistan&#8217;s principled position on Jammu and Kashmir is based on the UN Security Council resolutions, which provide that the final disposition of Jammu and Kashmir will be made in accordance with the will of the people of Kashmir. 

He called upon the international community and international human rights bodies to take due cognizance of the plight of the Kashmiri people.

These organizations have also asked India to allow an independent and transparent inquiry into the actions of its military and paramilitary forces and to desist from the use of torture which is prevalent in the valley, he added.

He said Pakistan has always emphasized the necessity of a meaningful, constructive and result oriented dialogue to resolve the Kashmir dispute. 

Pakistan, he said will continue to provide moral and political support to the struggle of the people of Kashmiri.

Later a documentary highlighting the reign of terror unleashed by Indian security forces in the Indian held Kashmir was shown. 

The event was attended by the members of Canadian-Pakistani Community.

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## Water Car Engineer

If you want to free Kashmir so badly, why dont you call your officials and tell them to start a war to get it? Ok? 

Kashmir isn't going no where. Eastern Turkestan isn't going no where. Chechnya isn't going no where.


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## PeacefulIndian

http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/files/16664_0510pp_kashmir.pdf

Pakistani members need to look at this survey. Even though there too many stats, go to page 19 & look what Kashmir thinks. 

Only 2&#37; from Indian Kashmir want to join Pakistan. Even 50% from P0K wish to part away from Pakistan. Even if a plebiscite be held in the entire valley, and only two options given as per UN resolution, India wins thumbs down.  

Sadly for India, there are areas where majority of them want independence. But again, that's strictly a business between India & Indian People of Kashmir. When Pakistan has virtually no role to play in Indian Kashmir as proven by the survey, whats all the fuss about? Why did GoP created terrorists, as admitted by Musharraf, when there was no & is no support for Pakistan at all in Indian Kashmir? 

Note: Core Jammu & Ladakh was excluded from the survey, which are known to be highly inclined towards India. If they had been included, India would have had much better figures. 

Yes there are problems that India needs to address, but so much for 'Kashmir's passion to join Pakistan'.

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## Omar1984

PeacefulIndian said:


> Only 2&#37; from Indian Kashmir want to join Pakistan. Even 50% from P0K wish to part away from Pakistan. Even if a plebiscite be held in the entire valley, and only two options given as per UN resolution, India wins thumbs down.



Then why doesn't india allow a plebiscite in Kashmir?

Why india doesnt allow a plebiscite that your first prime minister of india promised to the people of Kashmir?

According to these polls, india may even get Pakistan's Azad Kashmir's vote, so go ahead what are you waiting for hold a plebiscite and lets end this dispute already.


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## Hyde

lol, like Omar said, if you are so confident about Kashmiris then why not have free and fair elections in Kashmir?

You will win and all the objections will be lifted by Pakistan?

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## PeacefulIndian

Because a plebiscite can not be held in our integral state, as simple as that. Above survey answers what if it had been held. The points that I want to discuss are - 

1. Under what assumptions Pakistan wishes to 'liberate Indian Kashmir' when it has no role even according to people there?
2. If people are not supporting 'freedom fighters', who is? Where did they originate & how?
3. What prompts your ministers to say Pakistan is incomplete without full Kashmir, when only 2&#37; support you? 

Be real - Liberation has always been a hogwash for you Pakistanis. It has always been a mania instead of an honest desire.


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## Omar1984

PeacefulIndian said:


> Because a plebiscite can not be held in our integral state, as simple as that. Above survey answers what if it had been held. The points that I want to discuss are.



B.S.

The United Nations and the international community recognizes Kashmir as a disputed territory not an integral part of india.

Doesn't india want Pakistan's Azad Kashmir badly. It will give you a border with Afghanistan and Central Asia, something that india always wanted but Pakistan stood in the way.

If india was so confident that the majority of Kashmiris would chose india over Pakistan when given the choice, then india would've allowed a plebiscite in Kashmir and ended this 63 year old dispute with Pakistan years ago like you did with Junagadh.


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## flameboard

Pakistani officials have said that if Kashmiris want and independent country it will be granted. In case you didn't know the infrastructure for an independent Kashmir is already set up in Kashmir. If Pakistani wasn't ready to do so the infrastructure wouldn't exist. Plus Muslims would not want to see their brothers trapped. Look at Baluchistan Muslims from all over Pakistan have stood up for the people of Baluchistan and because of that it sometimes get more money than the Province of Punjab has some of Pakistan's biggest projects in operation, when that number is exceeded you know that the people care. So if the Kashmiris ending up wanting Independence there's no problem because we're prepared to help them, it turned more into a humanitarian concern for many.

As for how India is handling check it out for yourself.
YouTube - Unreported World - The Killing of Kashmir 1 / 5


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## PeacefulIndian

You are bypassing my questions and not discussing survey as well. Junagadh is entirely an out of context comparison. There is entire sea between Junagadh & Pakistan. Look what happened to BD - Junagadh would have ended up the same causing even more turmoil for the region. 

Thats one of the reasons there is no terrorism there. Pakistan does not have any easy access.


----------



## flameboard

PeacefulIndian said:


> You are bypassing my questions and not discussing survey as well. Junagadh is entirely an out of context comparison. There is entire sea between Junagadh & Pakistan. Look what happened to BD - Junagadh would have ended up the same causing even more turmoil for the region.
> 
> Thats one of the reasons there is no terrorism there. Pakistan does not have any easy access.



Junagadh is very much part of this since these two problems have the same origin. An entire sea, have you looked at a map? As for terrorism, there have been reports that it is would be very easy to cross borders between Sindh and Gujarat hence Junagadh. If Pakistan supported terrorism right now nothing would be standing in its way to start such movements in a large scale in Gujarat again hence Junagadh. Terrorism isn't a geographical thing where its limited to borders.

As for the number of people wanting to join Pakistan, I see that as no big deal because the number of people wanting to join Pakistan or want a free Kashmir is something an opinion that changes between each other. But given the choice between dealing with India for a solution and dealing with Pakistan, Pakistan has always been the winner in that one. What about in Independence Kashmir? You seem to have forgotten that, Pakistan hold that as an option India doesn't. How come Pakistan is calling for elections as well as the UN and the rest of the world. The attitude you expresses is a hypocritical one.


----------



## LaBong

FreekiN said:


> *BJP demands Arundhati Roy's exile over Kashmir remarks*
> 
> Madhya Pradesh BJP President Prabhat Jha today urged Centre to exile author-social activist Arundhati Roy from the country for her recent remarks on Kashmir.
> 
> Jha in a letter to Union home minister P Chidambaram said that the author be banished from the country and she and the people working with her be tried under charges of sedition.
> 
> Jha also demanded that Arundhati should be stripped off all the awards and honours bestowed upon her by the government.
> 
> "Arudhati has betrayed the country," he said, adding that he has written the letter not in the capacity of state BJP president but as an Indian.
> 
> "It is shocking that such an able home minister isn't able to make out the difference between sedition and freedom of expression," the letter said.
> 
> In a speech in Delhi and Srinagar recently, the author reportedly advocated freedom for Kashmir and described India as coloniser.



Prabhat Jha clearly doesn't know the constitution. Indian Govt don't have the power to exile anyone who choose to be an Indian Citizen.


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## UnitedPak

All I gathered from the report was that "FACTS Worldwide, Mumbai" should never be put in charge of a poll again. The number of 0&#37; and 100% poll results for entire districts is laughable to say the least, regardless of what questions were asked.

Btw OP, dont try these silly drive-by arguments again. First you throw such a pathetic report in our faces and then try and deafen us with the "integral state- plebiscite not possible" argument. If you are so confident about poll results I guess there is no reason to object to those UN resolutions.

This report also confirms that under no circumstances should India be trusted with holding a fair referendum or election (already proven in 1988).

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## HAK

Only 2&#37; want to join Pakistan and to contain those 2% indians have 700000 army getting its *** kicked.

Imagin 10% wanting to join Pakistan.


and there is not such thing as ***

The non indian occupied kashmir is a soverigen state with its own govt and stuff.

Hye. why does P.O.K without the dots gets ***????


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## sreekimpact

Zaki said:


> lol, like Omar said, if you are so confident about Kashmiris then why not have free and fair elections in Kashmir?
> 
> You will win and all the objections will be lifted by Pakistan?





Man it is very easy to disrupt an election by one or two guys with 
a gun.


Zaki said:


> You will win and all the objections will be lifted by Pakistan?



I dont think pakistan could give a guarantee on the above statement !!!


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## Markus

Irfan Baloch said:


> take a chill pill
> she has the guts to criticize the own side
> thats something really remarkable
> 
> Indians always say they dont care what the world say about their treatment of Kashmiris. now its very citizens are criticising and you cant digest it?
> 
> Its not bullshit if it doesnt suit your side. Your attitude is the first step towards the decline the absolute dismissal of reality and snubbing the criticism is what leads to the fall of empires in history.



She is an Indian citizen, isn't it?

Then why cant she see the sacrifices of the Indian soldiers in kashmir.

What happens in Kashmir (or what happened in Kashmir) was not due to Indian army alone, the role of the terrorists cannot be ignored too. Even they are responsible for the killings of thousands of innocent civilians.

THis one sided nonsense by Arundhati is NOT ACCEPTABLE.


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## StingRoy

Abir said:


> Prabhat Jha clearly doesn't know the constitution. Indian Govt don't have the power to exile anyone who choose to be an Indian Citizen.


Sometimes I feel that a few of the BJP brats should be expelled from their party first. NitiGadkari being my first choice


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## Xeric

Ahh...these kinda polls have been posted/quoted by you people a hundreds times around here. These polls have been carried out out so extensively and in such continuity that now the topic has been discussed ad nauseam!!

This entire 'effort's leads to only one logical conclusion that can be summed up in the following:

_Chor ki dhari main tinka_ (in my opinion the tinka has now become a Bamboo!!)


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## KS

My god what is happening ??

Even OIC is learning some good political moves.

Just last week or before that some of the important Gulf states openly pledged "strategic co-operation" with India and now they speak on Kashmir.

Any as OIC said "We hope....." . Well whats wrong in hoping ??

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## KS

Abir said:


> Prabhat Jha clearly doesn't know the constitution. Indian Govt don't have the power to exile anyone who choose to be an Indian Citizen.



A general question - If the govt revokes her citizenship,then automatically isnt she in exile.?? 



dezi said:


> Sometimes I feel that a few of the BJP brats should be expelled from their party first. NitiGadkari being my first choice



Any specific reasons or is it the usual quota of BJP-Bashing?


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## StingRoy

Karthic Sri said:


> A general question - If the govt revokes her citizenship,then automatically isnt she in exile.??



Does our constitution allow revoking of citizenship? Any earlier precedents. I know US and Canada do, but not sure about India.



> Any specific reasons or is it the usual quota of BJP-Bashing?


Hahaa... I wont say BJP bashing, but don't like some people's opinions especially in public at a personal level. (remember the Mulayam and Laloo verbal fight, I think he also had some with Sonia as well)


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## somebozo

these kind of surveys always comes from dubious sources and toilet media..no wonder..


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## KS

Abir said:


> Prabhat Jha clearly doesn't know the constitution. Indian Govt don't have the power to exile anyone who choose to be an Indian Citizen.





dezi said:


> Does our constitution allow revoking of citizenship? Any earlier precedents. I know US and Canada do, but not sure about India.



*Yes, I think the Constitution of India allows the Central Government to revoke the citizenship of a person.*

This is the Indian Citizenship Act 1955..Please look at point #10 on Page 11.

http://www.mha.nic.in/pdfs/ic_act55.pdf




dezi said:


> Hahaa... I wont say BJP bashing, but don't like some people's opinions especially in public at a personal level. (remember the Mulayam and Laloo verbal fight, I think he also had some with Sonia as well)



Some times it needs to be done to show ppl that they are hurt,shocked and angered.

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## LaBong

Karthic Sri said:


> *Yes, I think the Constitution of India allows the Central Government to revoke the citizenship of a person.*
> 
> This is the Indian Citizenship Act 1955..Please look at point #10 on Page 11.
> 
> http://www.mha.nic.in/pdfs/ic_act55.pdf



Karthic that rule doesn't apply to Citizen By Birth or Citizen By Descent.

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## paritosh

She hasn't done anything wrong in voicing her opinion.
If she thinks we are wrong in forcefully holding Kashmir then that is her point of view.
She like most Hindu and muslim radicals is not advocating violence/hatred...when we can let these radicals live alongside us why not her?
You can't throw everyone out of the country whose opinion doesn't match up to yours...!
there is no force stronger than the will of a populace...we have lost a lot of goodwill...and there a lot of people who'd want Kashmir to go it's own way...the way Pakistan and Bangladesh went...
I hope the Kashmiris look beyond faith in making their call when it is their time....


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## Patriot

Hold a plebiscite any day in the week.Trust me Kashmir will turn into green colors .So i don't see any logic for not holding plebiscite which by the way was promised by your own prime minister.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Zulqarnain lambaste unprovoked shelling by Indian troops​*
ISLAMABAD, SANA): The President of Azad Jammu Kahmir, Raja Zulqarnain Khan has lambasted the indiscriminate and unprovoked shelling of Indian troops across the line of control (LOC) and urge upon global community to take serious notice of human rights violations of Indian troops in occupied Kashmir.

He stated this while speaking to various delegations here on Thursday at Kashmir house.

AJK President said that besides genociding Kashmiris in occupied Kashmir Indian troops has made it routine to target the areas of line of control (LOC) by indiscriminate and unprovoked shelling. 

He stated that on Oct, 27 Kashmiris rest of the globe has observed Black day against the completion of illegal and unconstitutional subjugation of Indian troops in held Kashmir and the worker of political parties with the members of Civil Society were protesting along the line of Control (LOC) to press global community against Indain atrocities but Indian troops have opened shellings in Batal and Madarpur Sectors resulting injuries of several youths and damages of civilian property. 

He said UNO, European Union, OIC and other global bodies should play their due role for the resolution of Kashmir imbroglio in accordance with the wishes of Kashmiris. 

Zulqarnain lambaste unprovoked shelling by Indian troops


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Indian Troops are on killing spree: Malik​*
Rising Kashmir News
Srinagar, Oct 28: Stating the blood of Kashmiri martyrs will not go waste; JKLF Chairman Mohammad Yasin Malik Thursday alleged that police and the Indian para-troopers are on killing spree in Kashmir.

In a statement issued here Malik visited the Humhama to express solidarity with family members of the persons killed in police and CRPF firing. 

While addressing a gathering he said that in four months, police and troopers have killed more than hundred people in Kashmir. This killing spree is still on. In addition to it, innocent students are being book under draconian laws. The Imam of the Masjid, Rafiq Fazili who is only 20 years of age has been booked under PSA, Malik said.

He alleged that on one hand India is talking about a dialogue process and on the other hand has declared a war against the people. The oppression will not deter the resolve of the people. Kashmiris want total freedom which has been accepted by the worlds most important organizations as well, he said.

Earlier, Malik along with other party leaders visited the family members of 55 year old Ghulam Rasool Tantry. He was killed while he was ferrying an injured into a cab, Malik said.

Malik also visited the family members of Nisar Ahmad Kuchay and Aadil Gaffar and expressed sympathies with their family members.


Troops are on killing spree: Malik


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## paritosh

News in India..."unprovoked mortar and rocket fring by Pakistan"
New in Pakistan..."Unprovoked shelling by Indian troops"
no way to tell which is correct...

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## Pukhtoon

PeacefulIndian said:


> You are bypassing my questions and not discussing survey as well. Junagadh is entirely an out of context comparison. There is entire sea between Junagadh & Pakistan. Look what happened to BD - Junagadh would have ended up the same causing even more turmoil for the region.
> 
> *Thats one of the reasons there is no terrorism there*. Pakistan does not have any easy access.




hmmmmm That means QASAB is yr own Kuta. 

How can he Go to india lol


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## KS

No one is saint.

Both Pakistan Army and Indian Army resort to shooting/shelling from time to time for *various* purposes.

*SO MOVE ON*


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## Hafizzz

> Pandits demand mini India in Kashmir
> Pandits demand mini India in Kashmir - India - DNA
> 
> Pandits living in migrant camps want a mini India created in Kashmir, so that they could return home.
> 
> Ravinder Raina, president of Displaced Welfare Committee of Pandits, told visiting central interlocutors Dileep Padgaonkar and Radha Kumar at Muthi migrant Camp in Jammu, Kashmiri Pandits would be satisfied with a portion of land [in the Valley]. A land where the constitution of India would be applicable in letter and spirit so that right to life, liberty, freedom of expression, faith, equality and rule of law are ensured.
> 
> Raina, who submitted a memorandum to the interlocutors listing demands, said this portion of land should be placed under central administration with a Union territory status till it evolves its own economic and political infrastructure.
> 
> All Kashmiri Pandits, including those who were forced to leave on account of terrorist violence in Kashmir, should be settled on this portion of land on equitable basis, he said.
> 
> Around 59,542 pandit families have migrated from Kashmir since the onset of militancy in 1990. Of these, 34,202 families have migrated to Jammu and 21,684 are registered as migrants outside Jammu and Kashmir. Plus, 2,168 Muslim and 1,749 Sikh families have migrated from the Valley.
> 
> We are displaced, homeless and territory-less people in our own country. To save this community, we appeal for survival till we get the portion of our land. Our social, economic and cultural rehabilitation must be ensured, Raina said.
> 
> Kashmiri pandits had a detailed discussion with the interlocutors. They told us they will take up our issues with the Centre. We told them on one side there are pro-Pakistan voices and on the other, people who want independence. We are Indians, where do we figure? We have told them to look into this since we are the real sufferers of militancy, he said.
> 
> Meanwhile, Hurriyat hawk Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who has called for a boycott of the interlocutors, said the Centre should read the writing on the wall, shun rigidity and grant freedom to the people of Kashmir. The rulers in Delhi should respect peoples aspirations and give them right to self-determination, he said.



Will the mini India declare Independence in the near future ?


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## DEXTOR

Hafizzz said:


> Will the mini India declare Independence in the near future ?



Nothing gona happen...calm down dude..


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## Markus

Hafizzz said:


> Will the mini India declare Independence in the near future ?



Does the article say anything abt independence regarding Kashmiri pandits?

Then where's the question?


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## paritosh

creating a mini-India?
Kashmir belongs to the Kashmiri-pandits as much as it belongs to anyone else...


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## Avatar

There's no such thing as IoK. J&K is an integral part of India. There could be an IoK as a consequence of the next misadventure by Pakistan.

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## Hafizzz

paritosh said:


> creating a mini-India?
> Kashmir belongs to the Kashmiri-pandits as much as it belongs to anyone else...



Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris (muslims).


----------



## twoplustwoisfour

Hafizzz said:


> Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris (muslims).



Oh look, another religious bigot

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## Hafizzz

> Obama visit strikes fear in Kashmir
> Asia Times Online :: South Asia news, business and economy from India and Pakistan
> 
> BANGALORE - In a week's time, President Barack Obama will begin his five-day visit to India. He is keenly awaited in cities like Delhi and Bangalore, where people are looking to see whether Obama will endorse India's permanent membership in the United Nations Security Council or what he will say about outsourcing of business.
> 
> To those in the state of Jammu and Kashmir, however, the visit of an American president ignites fear and foreboding.



Unfortunately Kashmiris are not Tibetans or else help would be on their side.


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## Avatar

Hafizzz said:


> Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris (muslims).



Absolutely right. It belongs to 300 million Indian Muslims.

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## humanfirst

@hafizz
kashmiri pandits where there much before kashmiri muslims settled there.

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## sasuke

Hafizzz said:


> Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris* (muslims)*.



Obsession with religion in ruining many people in Pakistan! Lets not let that overflow into neighboring territories!

Anyways ... mini-India inside Kashmir.... lolz ... isn't it India all the way?

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## Hafizzz

Avatar said:


> Absolutely right. It belongs to 300 million Indian Muslims.



Hindus and Sikhs from India should move back to India and not seek to create a mini India inside Kashmir.


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## paritosh

Hafizzz said:


> Hindus and Sikhs from India should move back to India and not seek to create a mini India inside Kashmir.



Hindus and Sikhs have created a mini India in Pakistan too...by that measure...


----------



## Pratik

Avatar said:


> Absolutely right. It belongs to *300 million* Indian Muslims.



300 million Indian Muslim??

Now that's 25% of the current Indian population.
Last time Indian Census report checked muslims were 13.4 % of total population. 

so ,Did Bangladesh joined us??

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## Pratik

Hafizzz said:


> Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris (muslims).



That may be true in Pakistan and *** ,not in indian J & K.

*In India J & K belongs to Indians*.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

> SPECIAL REPORT | Friday, 29 October 2010 | The Daily Mail
> 
> 
> NEW DELHI &#8211; He is no soldier of fortune. Ashok Kumar says he only wants what is his due. The ex-Border Security Force constable alleged that he was ill-treated by his department and was expelled on medical grounds. Kumar claims that he is fit and ready for his job.
> 
> So, on Wednesday afternoon the soldier and his young kids marched naked through the heart of the Indian capital as a mark of protest. Ashok wanted to meet Rahul Gandhi and Sonia Gandhi but the cops detained him while he was walking nude on the Rajpath.
> 
> Ashok is from Sahvada village in Nangloi area of Delhi. &#8220;We detained him as soon as we received information (&#8230 we are interrogating him regarding the incident,&#8221; a police officer was quoted as saying by the Indian media. Ashok threatened that if he doesn&#8217;t get his job back, he would commit suicide, as he has no money left to take care of his family. His interrogation was on till late evening at the Parliament Street police station.
> 
> BSF officials refused to comment on the issue saying they didn&#8217;t have any information about Ashok&#8217;s termination from the force. &#8220;We don&#8217;t know too many details about this incident. We will investigate the matter,&#8221; said Vijay Singh, PRO BSF.
> 
> The BSF, which protests India&#8217;s borders with several countries, has been beset by scandals recently. Last year, a female-only unit raised from poor villages of the northwest and the northeast sparked a controversy when reports indicated it would be posted in Indian-occupied Kashmir to help reduce the high rate of suicide incidents in Indian Army units posted there for long tours of duty. Some Indian media reports suggested the unit was raised to provide sexual incentive to army units serving in difficult regions for extended periods of time.
> 
> India is spending $30 billion on weapons acquisitions from the United States, Russia and other countries to bolster its quest for superpower status.
> 
> Critics say the militarization drive comes at the expense of India&#8217;s poor, the largest anywhere in the world.




Indian Soldier Walks Naked In New Delhi To Protest Indian Army Excesses | PakNationalists.com | Home Of Pakistani Nationalists Online


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## BATMAN

They didn't mention his cast!
Incomplete information.


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## KALKI

bloody bureaucracy


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## KALKI

BATMAN said:


> They didn't mention his cast!
> Incomplete information.



WTF does cast have to do with it?


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## Icarus

Extremely weird way of protesting........


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## BATMAN

iRobot said:


> WTF does cast have to do with it?



It may help to understand the background of action and anticipate re-action from chief of indian army.


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## KALKI

BATMAN said:


> It may help to understand the background of action and anticipate re-action from chief of indian army.



aiwai? zabardasti?


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## Peshwa

BATMAN said:


> It may help to understand the background of action and anticipate re-action from chief of indian army.



I really love it when wannabe experts on India try to disect situations to prove a "discrimination" angle to everything....

It really gets old and boring after a while....

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## Areesh

Tshering22 said:


> He didn't get his due as the line says. Protests aren't always for religion and "purity" you know.



It is said that he was ill treated. I still wonder why he was ill treated?


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## gubbi

Funny, a quick google search of "Indian soldier walking naked in New Delhi" yields only Pakistani sources, led by articles from AhmedQuraishi.com. We all know how reliable those sources are.

No other credible sources?

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## 9870

Hafizzz said:


> Hindus and Sikhs from India should move back to India and not seek to create a mini India inside Kashmir.



Muslims should move back to Saudi Arabia


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## forcetrip

The reason I can get from the article is that he was dismissed due to a medical reason. That medical reason has not been stated. Hence he undressed to probably show that the reason he was terminated does not exist. Or so it seems. People asking for ludicrous reasons to find out why this is not religiously motivated need to take a deep breath and see that there are other unfair reasons in the world that people do stupid things.

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## Pukhtoon

gubbi said:


> Funny, a quick google search of "Indian soldier walking naked in New Delhi" yields only Pakistani sources, led by articles from AhmedQuraishi.com. We all know how reliable those sources are.
> 
> No other credible sources?



Picture is enough i think ?


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## gubbi

Pukhtoon said:


> Picture is enough i think ?



NO. The media sources you are so accustomed to have put up pictures of MQM rallies in Karachi and labelled them as protests in Kashmir flying Pakistani flag. Those pictures have been debunked by respected members on this very forum.

So pictures here mean squat, unless they come from reliable sources.


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## Last Hope

What is this ??
He is playing with his repu!


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## Avatar

What really amazes me is why all these articles quote the 30 billion $ purchase figure when it is MUCH less than what EVERY other powerful nation (INCLUDING PAKISTAN) is spending as &#37; of GDP ! A nation that grows at 8-9% pa can definitely allocate 2-3% for defence ! 



> Last year, a female-only unit raised from poor villages of the northwest and the northeast sparked a controversy when reports indicated it would be posted in Indian-occupied Kashmir to help reduce the high rate of suicide incidents in Indian Army units posted there for long tours of duty. Some Indian media reports suggested the unit was raised to provide sexual incentive to army units serving in difficult regions for extended periods of time.



WTF.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

gubbi said:


> Funny, a quick google search of "Indian soldier walking naked in New Delhi" yields only Pakistani sources, led by articles from AhmedQuraishi.com. We all know how reliable those sources are.
> 
> No other credible sources?



indian source?






Andhra Headlines: Andhra pradesh telugu and english news and entertainment portal


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## navtrek

Kakgeta said:


> Extremely weird way of protesting........



Actually very clever peaceful yet the point was made 

Hope the government comes to the aid of their family.


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## gubbi

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> indian source?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andhra Headlines: Andhra pradesh telugu and english news and entertainment portal



I asked for credible sources. Not Indian or Pakistani.

ps: BTW, if true, the soldier belongs to the Jat community (Sirohi) so all those spewing BS about casteism, reign in those horses.

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## mikey

Well wats bad in it ? If he protest by this way ? ? In west people protest by body poster ...? Do u want me to post xpresident Bush body poster here lol ? ?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

gubbi said:


> I asked for credible sources. Not Indian or Pakistani.
> 
> ps: BTW, if true, the soldier belongs to the Jat community (Sirohi) so all those spewing BS about casteism, reign in those horses.



you can search that on your own time; i'm just reporting what has been reported by however many sources there are that did report it.

naked protest is not an alien thing in india; and i'm not saying that to annoy or be a troll. I've heard of such cases in past, though not with current or ex-jawans


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## pmukherjee

BATMAN said:


> It may help to understand the background of action and anticipate re-action from chief of indian army.



The Indian Army Chief has no say in matters of the BSF which comes under the Home ministry like all other central police forces and not under the defense ministry. Also caste has no bearing on reasons for invalidating out of an employee. The medical board in its opinion recommends discharge on medical grounds if the nature of disability does not permit continued employment under the service rules. If the medical board is wrong in its assessment, the man can appeal to the Court of law and get relief. Walking around naked is not a recognized mode of seeking redressal. He stands to be arrested for public nudity and indecent behaviour.

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## gubbi

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> you can search that on your own time; i'm just reporting what has been reported by however many sources there are that did report it.
> 
> naked protest is not an alien thing in india; and i'm not saying that to annoy or be a troll. I've heard of such cases in past, though not with current or ex-jawans



AZ. I did do an extensive google search, which I mentioned in my previous post. I am not accusing anyone of trolling, maybe except for the OP.
Yes, naked protests do make heads turn. Happens in India.

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## KALKI

The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan are resolved that the two countries put an end to the conflict and confrontation that have hitherto marred their relations and work for the promotion of a friendly and harmonious relationship and the establishment of durable peace in the subcontinent so that both countries may henceforth devote their resources and energies to the pressing task of advancing the welfare of their people.

In order to achieve this objective, the Government of India and the Government of Pakistan have agreed as follows:

(i) That the principles and purposes of the Charter of the United Nations shall govern the relations between the two countries.

(ii) That the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through *bilateral* *(hence UN res. become null and void and so does any chance of third party mediation)* negotiations or by any other peaceful means mutually agreed upon between them. Pending the final settlement of any of the problems between the two countries, neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation and both shall prevent the organisation, assistance or encouragement of any acts detrimental to the maintenance of peace and harmonious relations.

(iii) That the prerequisite for reconciliation, good neighbourliness and durable peace between them is a commitment by both the countries to peaceful coexistence respect for each other's territorial integrity and sovereignty and noninterference in each other's internal affairs, on the basis of equality and mutual benefit.

(iv) That the basic issues and causes of conflict which have bedeviled the relations between the two countries for the last 25 years shall be resolved by peaceful means.

(v) That they shall always respect each other's national unity, territorial integrity, political independence and sovereign equality.

(vi) That in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, they will refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of each other.

Both governments will take all steps within their power to prevent hostile propaganda directed against each other. Both countries will encourage the dissemination of such information as would promote the development of friendly relations between them.

In order progressively to restore and normalise relations between the two countries step by step, it was agreed that:

(i) Steps shall be taken to resume communications, postal, telegraphic, sea, land, including border posts, and air links, including over flights.

(ii) Appropriate steps shall be taken to promote travel facilities for the nationals of the other country.

(iii) Trade and cooperation in economic and other agreed fields will be resumed as far as possible.

(iv) Exchange in the fields of science and culture will be promoted.

In this connection delegations from the two countries will meet from time to time to work out the necessary details.

In order to initiate the process of the establishment of durable peace, both the governments agree that:

(i) Indian and Pakistani forces shall be withdrawn to their side of the international border.

(ii) *In Jammu and Kashmir, the line of control resulting from the ceasefire of December 17, 1971, shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognised position of either side. Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally, irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations. Both sides further undertake to refrain from the threat or the use of force in violation of this line.* *(Pakistan violated this in Kargil war)*

(iii) The withdrawals shall commence upon entry into force of this agreement and shall be completed within a period of 30 days thereof.

This agreement will be subject to ratification by both countries in accordance with their respective constitutional procedures, and will come into force with effect from the date on which the instruments of ratification are exchanged.

Both governments agree that their respective heads will meet again at a mutually convenient time in the future and that in the meanwhile the representatives of the two sides will meet to discuss further the modalities and arrangements for the establishment of durable peace and normalisation of relations, including the questions of repatriation of prisoners of war and civilian internees, a final settlement of Jammu and Kashmir and the resumption of diplomatic relations.


Quaid-e-Awam President Islamic Republic of Pakistan
&#8211; Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, 



Indira Gandhi Prime Minister Republic of India
&#8211; Indira Gandhi.

Simla, the 2 July 1972.

Simla Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

------------------------------------

*Does this not make UN res. null and void and also rule out the possibility and legality of any third party mediation in future?*


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Kashmir Black Day observed in Malaysia​*
Thursday, 28 October 2010 

ISLAMABAD, Oct 27 (APP): The Kashmir Black Day was observed in Malaysia as a mark of protest against the occupation of Kashmir valley by the Indian troops for 63 years. A seminar was held under the auspices of two non-governmental organizations of Malaysia - Global Peace Mission and Angkatan Belia Islam Malaysia (ABIM) in Kuala Lumpur on Wednesday which was attended Secretary General of ABIM and Chief Executive of Global Peace Mission Mohammad Asri Abdul and a large number of Pakistani community. 

Malaysian academicians Dr. Chandra Muzaffar, President of the International Movement for a Just World (JUST), an international NGO and Dr Arif Zakaullah, Professor at International Islamic University highlighted the plight of people of Jammu and Kashmir who continue to remain deprived of their fundamental rights.

Dr Ruhanas Harun, a renowned linguist said that Kashmiris are peace-loving people and the current phase of the youths uprising is a peaceful political movement. 

He termed it as a renewed call to the international community to compel India to stop killings of the Kashmiri people through gruesome human rights violations.

The speakers were of the view that the present uprising was indigenous and outburst of simmering resentment among the Kashmiri people who have been under Indian subjugation for decades. 

Two students, Salwa Musani and Ramla Ariff in their speeches said that since 1947, Kashmir remained at the core of South Asias issues of peace and security, and is a sombre reminder to the world that the people of Kashmir remained deprived of fundamental values and freedoms. 

Associated Press of Pakistan - Kashmir Black Day observed in Malaysia

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## The Clarifier

Well, at-least we got a bit more support. Everyone knows Tibet, East Timor, Palestine, etc but nobody has an idea of what Kashmir is. Were it not due to the noise from Pakistan, Kashmir probably wouldn't even get any backstory.

Kashmir needs more support from middle east...


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## hillman32

I thank Malaysian people for observing* Kashmir Black Day*


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## prototype

Good,now move on

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## The Clarifier

prototype said:


> Good,now move on



You too


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## deckingraj

^^^^^^
Nice, now hopefully pak will get some more international sport...good luck with it...

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## amigo

pak will get international support????????
U.S has already said that they will not interfare in kashmir issue, then what support r u ppl talking abt


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## deckingraj

amigo said:


> pak will get international support????????
> U.S has already said that they will not interfare in kashmir issue, then what support r u ppl talking abt



Learn to understand sarcasm..... Anyways US is not international support....secondly no matter what India will not budge...


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## The Clarifier

International support is a piece of !@#$... 

War and/or separation movement is much more likely.


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## SpArK

Haa.. That explains the Free trade agreement news which was posted yesterday between India and Malaysia.

Good going Malaysia.

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## amigo

The Clarifier said:


> International support is a piece of !@#$...
> 
> War and/or separation movement is much more likely.



try baby try....... 63 yrs have gone by


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## The Clarifier

amigo said:


> try baby try....... 63 yrs have gone by



And the tension increases...

Kashmiri mindsets aren't the same as in 1965 or 1947


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## amigo

The Clarifier said:


> And the tension increases...
> 
> Kashmiri mindsets aren't the same as in 1965 or 1947



oh my this time india need to worry


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## Ganga

Kashmir Black day is being observed by some Islamic organizations here and there.It does not make much of a difference.


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## The Clarifier

amigo said:


> oh my this time india need to worry



You can see their worrying when they beat up kids!

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## amigo

The Clarifier said:


> You can see their worrying when they beat up kids!



they deserve it.........


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## The Clarifier

amigo said:


> they deserve it.........



This is legendary!!!!

I must take a screenshot before you edit your post!


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## S_O_C_O_M

*OSJK: Geelani condemns molestation of two women in Pattan​*








Friday, 29 October 2010 13:34 


Srinagar, October 29, 2010: All Parties Hurriyat Conference Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, has strongly condemned the molestation of two Kashmiri women in Pattan *by the personnel of Special Operations Group (SOG) of Indian forces.*

Syed Ali Shah Geelani in a statement issued in Srinagar said that the occupation authorities had regrouped and activated the notorious SOG. &#8220;Kashmiris cannot tolerate if anybody even casts an eye on the women,&#8221; he added.

He said that the authorities were reactivating the SOG to suppress the Kashmiris&#8217; ongoing "Quit Kashmir Movement" (QKM) and to harass them. &#8220;During the last four months, people of Pattan have rendered unflinching sacrifices and faced brutal atrocities. As many as eight youth have been martyred by the troops in the area,&#8221; Geelani said.

The APHC Chairman Syed Ali Shah Geelani had said that India could not deter Kashmiris unflinching resolve to get freedom from its occupation through use of brute force. He reiterated that the ongoing QKM would continue till the people of Kashmir achieved their inalienable right of Self-Determination.

APHC had also appealed the people to make the protest programmes announced in connection with the ongoing QKM a success. APHC in a meeting held in Srinagar, with its General Secretary, Nisar Hussain Rather in chair, strongly condemned the occupation authorities for suppressing the Campaign through use of brute force.

The participants of the meeting also denounced the continued house arrest of Syed Ali Shah Geelani and re-arrest of Muhammad Rafique Ganai, the General Secretary of Jammu and Kashmir Peoples Freedom League. They said that Kashmiris were left with no option but to protest against the brutalities of Indian army.

Meanwhile, the APHC spokesman in a statement in Srinagar expressed serious concern over the deteriorating health of illegally detained Hurriyat leader, Muhammad Ashraf Sehrai in jail. He said that Sehrai had been suffering from different diseases but no medical facility was being provided to him. He demanded his immediate release along with all other illegally detained Hurriyat leaders and activists.

On the other hand, the Jammu and Kashmir People Freedom League has flayed the arrests and harassment of innocent people in Bandipora, Islamabad and Pulwama by the personnel of Indian police. The party spokesman in a statement issued in Srinagar said that the arrest of an eighty years old person in Bandipora was an eye-opener for the puppet administration.

The authorities re-imposed curfew and other restrictions in several parts of the Kashmir Valley to prevent people from holding anti-India demonstrations, today. Curfew had been imposed in Safakadal, Mehraj Gunj, Rajouri Kadal, Khanyar, Nowhatta and Rainawari localities of Srinagar besides in Bandipora, Kupwara, Trehgam and Kralpora areas of OSJK.

The authorities had placed the All Parties Hurriyat Conference Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Mirwaiz Umar Farooq under house arrest to prevent them to address pubic gatherings. Mirwaiz Umar Farooq was scheduled to launch signature campaign at Jamia Masjid in Srinagar after Juma prayers, seeking US President, Barack Obama&#8217;s intervention on Kashmir.

The Jammu and Kashmir Muslim Khawateen Markaz has denounced the shifting of APHC leader and the party Chairperson, Yasmeen Raja, to Central Jail Srinagar under the draconian Indian laws.

The Vice Chairperson of Muslim Khawateen Markaz, Ayesha Shah, addressing an emergency party meeting in Srinagar, said that the occupation authorities had illegally detained the APHC leader for participating in protest demonstrations against the violations of gross human rights by Indian troops.

She said that Indian police unlawfully arrested Yasmeen Raja from her residence at New Colony in Tull Baghbanpura on October 26 and lodged her at Women&#8217;s Police Station Srinagar. &#8220;The police kept her there under illegal detention for two days. Later, they shifted her to the Central Jail under the black law,&#8221; she added.

Terming the detention of Yasmeen Raja as political vendetta by the puppet authorities, she said that the occupation forces through use of brute force could not deter Kashmiris&#8217; resolve to get freedom from Indian oppression.

OSJK: Geelani condemns molestation of two women in Pattan


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## Abu Zolfiqar

interesting, considering the fact that there are many indians in Malaysia, i wouldve thought they'd have a lobby of some sorts there; though most of the indians there are just labourers and such

nice to see the mobilization of efforts to highlight the Kashmiri cause in Malaysia. Thank you for sharing


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Kashmir Black Day​*


> ALL over Pakistan as well as in AJK and Occupied Kashmir, a Black Day was observed to condemn the brazen occupation of Kashmir by India on 27 October 1947. It was a reminder for the world that the Kashmir conflict still remains unresolved despite UNSC resolutions and the Kashmiris continuous struggle for their right to self-determination. Through decades of Indian repression, generation after generation of Kashmiris have rejected Indian occupation of their State as well as its illegal efforts to swallow Jammu and Kashmir into the Indian Union.
> 
> Once again during the Black Day protests the Indian troops showed their ruthless aggression against the unarmed Kashmiri protestors as they fired at a rally. But it is not simply naked aggression that the Indians are using against the Kashmiris. The leadership of the Kashmiris is constantly targeted both physically and psychologically but their resolve has not been broken.
> 
> Unfortunately, one cannot say the same about the Pakistani state and its successive governments. There has been a growing lack of clarity on what exactly is Pakistans Kashmir policy. Yet for Pakistan Kashmir is not simply an emotive issue but a strategic issue that has its roots in the principle of self-determination for the Kashmiris, but also rests on the fact that Kashmir is the lifeline for Pakistan  it is the place from where the river waters of Pakistan flow and without resolution of the Kashmir dispute, the water issue with India cannot be satisfactorily resolved as India will continue to hold Pakistan to ransom on this count as long as it is able to sustain its occupation of Kashmir.
> 
> However, there is a growing realisation in India that the present status quo in Kashmir is untenable which is why New Delhi has appointed a three-member team of interlocutors to deal with the Kashmiris and search for a solution. The problem is that the mandate circumscribes the solution as being one within the Indian Union  which is a non-starter to begin with. Even though the leader of the mediating team, Padgaonkar, has stated clearly that Pakistan and AJK have to be included in any dialogue towards a solution but unless India accepts the reality of the need for a plebiscite according to UNSC resolutions, there can be no resolution of the Kashmir issue. And, unless Kashmir is resolved, there can be no meaningful peace and stability in the region. Nor can there be normalisation of relations between Pakistan and India because time and again it has been shown that Kashmir defines the parameters of the Pakistan-India relationship.
> 
> It is time for Pakistan to be more assertive in its support of the Kashmiri struggle which has gained a new momentum with the latest youth intifada. For over sixty years the Kashmiris have sacrificed their families, their future and their lives for their right to self determination. They will not give up now.




Kashmir Black Day | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

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## somebozo

where is the india-malay friendship crowd?
Recently the same day was also marked in Saudi Arabia sponsered PISJ-ES and Pakistan counslate.


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## SpArK

somebozo said:


> *where is the india-malay friendship crowd?*








Here ... taken 3 days back at the launch of Little India in Brickfields, Kuala Lumpur

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## Kambojaric

amigo said:


> they deserve it.........



well that pretty much sums up Indians attitude towards Kashmiris

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## Water Car Engineer

Bamxa said:


> well that pretty much sums up Indians attitude towards Kashmiris



Stop generalizing. Kashmir is our territory no matter what the UN or Pakistan says. I said this many times. Chechyna, East Turkestan, Tibet, Kashmir, Your tribal areas, etc are not going no where.


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## The Clarifier

Varghese said:


> Stop generalizing. Kashmir is our territory no matter what the UN or Pakistan says. I said this many times. Chechyna, East Turkestan, Tibet, Kashmir, Your tribal areas, etc are not going no where.



Same could have been said for bangladesh but look where we are. I think your argument does not reflect the reality as countries always change... oh, I don't know what "Your tribal areas" refer to.

By the way, Kashmir is different because it is disputed territory.


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## Water Car Engineer

The Clarifier said:


> Same could have been said for bangladesh but look where we are. I think your argument does not reflect the reality as countries always change... oh, I don't know what "Your tribal areas" refer to.
> 
> By the way, Kashmir is different because it is *disputed territory.*



People know who is running it. So it doesnt matter non.


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## Jackdaws

She is entitled to her opinion - all lunatics should have their constitutional rights protected.


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## The Clarifier

Being a nationalistic Pakistani, it might be unusual to say this, but- she is pretty much acting against the interests of her own country. That is pretty much a traitor- except she said it in words, not actions. What if some random Pakistani journalist or politician said "Omg Baluchistan is not ours and we should let go of them", would we not call her the same? This might be crazy- Baluchistan doesn't even have any real major insurgency anyway.

The way I see it, Kashmir will be freed with wars, not words.


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## silent hill

all indians are up against an intellectual lady, who just supports the human roghts in kashmir..

but what the fuuck is that creature called nadeem f paracha is to some pakistanis and most indians???? and whythey like his disgusting views??, is he not traitor to pakistan?? and why is he worshipped by indians..

in this thread i have seen most of pakistan condemning her, but will the indians show such moral while post another of his disgusting marvels??, i dont think so

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## Jackdaws

silent hill said:


> all indians are up against an intellectual lady, who just supports the human roghts in kashmir..
> 
> but what the fuuck is that creature called nadeem f paracha is to some pakistanis and most indians???? and whythey like his disgusting views??, is he not traitor to pakistan?? and why is he worshipped by indians..
> 
> in this thread i have seen most of pakistan condemning her, but will the indians show such moral while post another of his disgusting marvels??, i dont think so



Of course not. We like anyone who agrees with our viewpoint - doesn't matter if he is Pakistani or Mongolian. That's why you like Roy - she says what you like to hear.


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## silent hill

Jackdaws said:


> *Of course not. We like anyone who agrees with our viewpoint - doesn't matter if he is Pakistani or Mongolian*.



and cry if somebody doesnt even it is an indian, one dark bharati reality


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## Jackdaws

silent hill said:


> and cry if somebody doesnt even it is an indian, one dark bharati reality



It is the same everywhere. You call the likes of that Nadeem fellow a traitor. China calls the Dalai Lama a traitor. It is a dark human reality. If you don't toe the line, you can be termed a traitor. 

I usually desist from terming anyone a traitor unless they CAUSE the deaths of my fellow citizens or destruction of property. So, to me - Roy is not a traitor - she is just an irritant. To me the likes of Bal Thackeray and Narendra Modi are traitors because they set Indian against Indian.

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## deckingraj

paritosh said:


> She hasn't done anything wrong in voicing her opinion.
> If she thinks we are wrong in forcefully holding Kashmir then that is her point of view.
> She like most Hindu and muslim radicals is not advocating violence/hatred...when we can let these radicals live alongside us why not her?
> You can't throw everyone out of the country whose opinion doesn't match up to yours...!
> there is no force stronger than the will of a populace...we have lost a lot of goodwill...and there a lot of people who'd want Kashmir to go it's own way...the way Pakistan and Bangladesh went...
> I hope the Kashmiris look beyond faith in making their call when it is their time....



Voicing opinion is one thing but speaking bull sh1t is another....Yes Kashmiri's have some real grievances and yes it is a matter of shame for us....We have failed to give a peaceful life to our netizens in Kashmir....However calling Indian Army an occupying force and Indian state having hegemonic aspirations sounds like some general speaking from across the border, no????

Voicing opinion is fine but there has to be some sort of justification as well, no especially when you are living in the very same state and using the media of very same state just to spew venom??? Also may i ask what help has she done by speaking crap to the Kashmir cause???Only thing she has managed to earn is some respect across the border and even more hardened stand by fellow Indians, no???


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## Karachiite

I saw this picture of a man's head cut open by the Indian army in IOK, he was protesting. It made me puke. Now a days Kashmirs don't only have the support of Pakistanis but also the whole world's.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

How much?


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## KS

Jackdaws said:


> It is the same everywhere. You call the likes of that Nadeem fellow a traitor. China calls the Dalai Lama a traitor. It is a dark human reality. If you don't toe the line, you can be termed a traitor.
> 
> I usually desist from terming anyone a traitor unless they CAUSE the deaths of my fellow citizens or destruction of property. So, to me - Roy is not a traitor - she is just an irritant. To me the likes of Bal Thackeray and *Narendra Modi are traitors* because they set Indian against Indian.



Traitors dont work diligently to make the state they rule one of the most prosperous and developing with no allegations of corruption ,red tapist bureaucracyor discriminination.


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## true_indian

Karthic Sri said:


> Traitors dont work diligently to make the state they rule one of the most prosperous and developing with no allegations of corruption ,red tapist bureaucracyor discriminination.



Ah come on Sri, your Hindutva side is coming out clearly. There are many allegations levelled against him. But BJP effectively protected him by making several deals with Congress. Latest scandal about an encounter (where home minster is accused) is rumored to have been settled with congress by letting nuclear liability bill go through.


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## dvk_1982

silent hill said:


> all indians are up against an intellectual lady, who just supports the human roghts in kashmir..
> 
> but what the fuuck is that creature called nadeem f paracha is to some pakistanis and most indians???? and whythey like his disgusting views??, is he not traitor to pakistan?? and why is he worshipped by indians..
> 
> in this thread i have seen most of pakistan condemning her, but will the indians show such moral while post another of his disgusting marvels??, i dont think so



its not just abt kashmirirs... she trys to claim a high ground by supporting maoists , or for that matter any rebel..... becoz she believes and for some gud reasons the govt. of india is a farce. 

But the problem is when there is no education and development, people will suffer in despise. U can't industrialize without land, agreed there will be corruption but thats no excuse to not encourage industrialization becoz thats the source for employment and maoists are against it. Coming back to her support for kashmiri freedom, we dont need these doves and self acclaimed intellectuals who are more idelogy centric


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## dvk_1982

true_indian said:


> Ah come on Sri, your Hindutva side is coming out clearly. There are many allegations levelled against him. But BJP effectively protected him by making several deals with Congress. Latest scandal about an encounter (where home minster is accused) is rumored to have been settled with congress by letting nuclear liability bill go through.



and how abt ur pseudo-secularist beliefs ? how can congress claim to be better than bjp when it was under them sikh riots happened, emergency was imposed, kashmiri pandits in the order of 1/2 a million became refuges in their own country and vote bank politics by trying to please in terms of caste, religion and what not. U may disown even congress but they seem to stand for secularism and this is what they can offer.

u may defend them but the matter of the fact is we got sooo much used to corruption and vote bank politics that we no longer recognize it as a menace or as a sin. The day when Arundati roy defended killing of our poor police forces by maoists, i started hating her. (if u dont know dig her interviews on ndtv , this year)

It has become a fashion to label somebody as hindutva in a negative light just becoz somebody sided with BJP here on PDF.


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## KS

true_indian said:


> Ah come on Sri, your Hindutva side is coming out clearly.



Have I anytime said,I am not a Hindutva follower ?? .But wait Hindutva according to me is a way of life,a concept that has been there for thousands of years - not the new found meaning espoused by our "media".



true_indian said:


> There are many *allegations levelled against him*. But BJP effectively protected him by making several deals with Congress.



Anything proved ?? Indian constitution says Innocent until found guilty.So ppl,dont become judges yourselves.



true_indian said:


> Latest scandal about an encounter (where home minster is accused) is rumored to have been settled with congress by letting nuclear liability bill go through.



If you are talking about Sohrabuddin Sheikh it was Amit Shah and not Modi.

Or if it was the Ishrat Jahan case,

Ishrat Jahan was an LeT suicide bomber: Headley to NIA


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Seeing Kashmir Without Indian Glasses​*
By AHMED QURAISHI 

ISLAMABAD, PakistanFor too long India misled the international community on Kashmir, claiming Kashmiris were eager to share in Indias economic prosperity and that Pakistan was holding them back by infiltrating terrorists to spread mayhem.

Two good things happened that India did not anticipate. It even welcomed one of those two things not knowing what was coming down the road.

First, former Pakistani president Musharraf ordered all Pakistan-based Kashmiri groups to cease support for their kin in Indian-occupied Kashmir. This he did in 2004 as an exaggerated gesture of goodwill to make new peace talks with India a success. The Indians dragged the peace talks and rendered Musharrafs effort a failure. But they were jubilant nevertheless at this unilateral concession from Pakistan. What they didnt know is that something will happen five years down the road that will set New Delhis Kashmir policy fifty years back.

This is where the second good thing happened. In 2009, slowly the Kashmiris began coming out on the streets in mass protests. This unnerved more than half a million Indian soldiers crammed into the tiny occupied territory. Indian soldiers were used to confronting hardened Kashmiri freedom fighters. Ordinary Kashmiris provided the fighters all kinds of support but avoided direct clashes with the Indian military. Thanks to Indian soldiers going overboard in the organized **** of women as a tool of punishment, June 2009 saw the outpour of Kashmiri anger against the 63-year-old Indian occupation. It was even bigger than 1989, when Kashmiris began an armed struggle against the occupation. There were other triggers attributed to Indian arrogance, like gifting Kashmiri land to build Indian religious temples.

By summer 2010, this turned into what many now call the Kashmir Intifada, likening it to the Palestinian resistance against Israeli occupation.

I remember a time when Pakistanis used to be rebuffed when they tried to make this comparison. Not anymore. Take a look at the 29 Oct. 2010 Foreign Policy magazine online cover [seen above]. The world is taking note of the courage of unarmed Kashmiris, men, women and teenagers facing off a large organized force.

Not just that. The world is also beginning to question why India is persecuting fair-minded Indians like novelist Arundhati Roy who questions Indias unnecessary occupation of a land and people who are not Indian and do not want to be Indian.

See this slideshow prepared by Foreign Policy magazine. It doesnt roundly condemn Indian atrocities, not yet at least. But considering the past, it is three-steps forward for the Am-Brit media, and hopefully the beginning of a trend that might help reduce Pakistani hostility to American double standards in the region.

Pak1stanFirst-Seeing Kashmir Without Indian Glasses | Politics

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## S_O_C_O_M



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## Ammyy

Hafizzz said:


> Hindus and Sikhs from India should move back to India and not seek to create a mini India inside Kashmir.



Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims already living in India include J&K.


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## Hafizzz

> India decides not to book Arundhati Roy with sedition
> India decides not to book Arundhati Roy with sedition | The Australian
> 
> INDIA has decided against prosecuting award-winning author and activist Arundhati Roy for sedition after she spoke out about the disputed region of Kashmir.
> 
> Roy, winner of the Booker award for her novel The God of Small Things in 1997, is a fierce critic of India's tactics in Kashmir, where protests against New Delhi have claimed more than 100 lives since June.
> 
> She shared a stage with hardline Kashmiri separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani last week and backed the idea of "azadi" or freedom for Kashmir, leading New Delhi police to look into charging her with sedition.
> 
> But the police have been instructed to "avoid pursuing the issue and consider it as a closed chapter", said a senior official in the Indian interior ministry last night. "No criminal case has been registered against her. Therefore, there is no question of slapping sedition charges."
> 
> Start of sidebar. Skip to end of sidebar.
> 
> End of sidebar. Return to start of sidebar.
> 
> The Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party objected to Roy's remarks, calling them "seditious" and demanding legal action against her.
> 
> Kashmir has been beset by violence, curfews and strikes since early June, when a 17-year-old student was killed by a police teargas shell. Since then, 111 protesters and bystanders have died.
> 
> A poll published last month showed that a majority in Muslim-majority Indian Kashmir favoured independence for their region.



Glad that Roy is not charged for speaking the truth (Freedom of speech).

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## Jade

Why make a hero out of a Zero. Good move GOI

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## Hulk

Posters in Srinagar ask Hurriyat to review its agitation - Hindustan Times

Posters appeared in the commercial hub of Lal Chowk and Residency Road in Srinagar city carrying a two-day ultimatum to hardline Hurriyat Conference to review its decision on continuing protest bandhs indefinitely. 
Hundreds of posters issued in the name of hitherto unknown Jammu and Kashmir Islami Ittehad outfit appeared on the walls and shutters of shops in the city.
"The Hurriyat Conference should announce by October 31 as to who is calling the shots in Kashmir. Who should we listen to -- Hurriyat or stone-pelters?" the outfit asked.

The poster is apparently in response to incidents of stone-pelting in some parts of the Valley even on the days when the Hurriyat led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani suspends strikes and protests.

It said if the Hurriyat failed to respond by tomorrow, the situation in Kashmir will take a new turn from November 1 and all the responsibility will fall on the separatists.

"The benefits derived out of strikes and protests over the past four months are unemployment, destruction and bleak future for Kashmiri nation," it said.

The outfit urged the Hurriyat to consider the economic condition of the people before giving calls for strikes.

It also claimed that only a handful of stone-pelters were creating law and order problem in the Valley for their petty and personal interests.

"There are only 100 to 125 stone pelters who wait for deterioration of situation so that they can indulge in loot. There has been an incident in Zakura where they snatched jewellery from a woman," the outfit said.

It said unscrupulous elements were using social networking sites like Facebook to spread "lies" and "rumours" about non-existent atrocities committed by security forces.

"A few days back, they spread rumours about **** of a woman in Palhalan, which turned out to be a lie later on. However, it caused disturbances at many places in the Valley," the outfit said.

Eyewitnesses told PTI that the posters were pasted in the city in the wee hours on Saturday but most of these disappeared within hours. Police officials said they were aware about the development but refused to comment on it.


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## gubbi

Hafizzz said:


> Glad that Roy is not charged for speaking the truth (Freedom of speech).



How does being ignored translate to victory?


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## somebozo

> Pandits living in migrant camps want a mini India created in Kashmir, so that they could return home.


Same tactic which was used in Bangladesh as "bengali nationalism" and in sikkim!


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## LaBong

You mean victory for Indian Democracy right?

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## AR

Hafizzz said:


> Glad that Roy is not charged for speaking the truth (Freedom of speech).



if it is then I can say it is the greatest misuse of that right....

freedom of speech dont give right to speak against your national integrity..

here we demand GOI to take serious actions against her


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## Hulk

Who is putting these posters?


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## somebozo

Strategic co-op with India is overlapped by Muslim first and limited to business links only. For the arabis, the defense and strategic affairs remains limited to Pakistan as the closest ally!

All i can say is, the Arabis are cooking something. Saudis have special affection to the northern tribal of Pakistan due to centuries of close relations. Just look at how many "khans" are present in Saudi forces.


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## sensenreason

somebozo said:


> Strategic co-op with India is overlapped by Muslim first and limited to business links only. For the arabis, the defense and strategic affairs remains limited to Pakistan as the closest ally!
> 
> All i can say is, the Arabis are cooking something. Saudis have special affection to the northern tribal of Pakistan due to centuries of close relations. Just look at how many "khans" are present in Saudi forces.



I dont know whats cooking.....but something surely is...India has been entrapped by corrupt politicians who weakened the military and I feel India will lose Kashmir soon.

The feeling here however could be akin to Pakistan's in 71'...so Kashmir will be won back at some point of time later maybe 2030.


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## Desert Fox

somebozo said:


> Just look at how many "khans" are present in Saudi forces.



Really? never knew that.


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## Donatello

A.R.. said:


> if it is then I can say it is the greatest misuse of that right....
> 
> freedom of speech dont give right to speak against your national integrity..
> 
> here we demand GOI to take serious actions against her



Actually it does, unless your constitution specifically says:-

"...Freedom of speech except against nation..."

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## SpArK

penumbra said:


> Actually it does, unless your constitution specifically says:-
> 
> "...Freedom of speech except against nation..."



No there are many instances.. For example like this one ,which can harm a country's interests.

In the name of freedom of speech , you cant go around swearing and abusing people. If you need more information regarding as what not and what yes regarding what all doesn't comes around in freedom of speech, i can give lots of examples..


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## KS

somebozo said:


> Strategic co-op with India is overlapped by Muslim first and limited to business links only. For the arabis, the defense and strategic affairs remains limited to Pakistan as the closest ally!
> 
> All i can say is, *the Arabis are cooking something*. Saudis have special affection to the northern tribal of Pakistan due to centuries of close relations. Just look at how many "khans" are present in Saudi forces.



Yes, I hope they are buying the leopard tanks,Apaches and Eagles for invading India and liberating Kashmir.

Those Arabis dont give a fcuk abt other Arabis(Palestinians)...what makes u think they give a shyt abt Kashmir .???


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## KS

penumbra said:


> Actually it does, unless your constitution specifically says:-
> 
> "...Freedom of speech except against nation..."



Article 19 of the Indian constitution under the name "Freedom of Speech" says :



> Freedom of speech and expression, which enable an individual to participate in public activities. The phrase, "freedom of press" has not been used in Article 19, but freedom of expression includes freedom of press. Reasonable restrictions can be imposed in the interest of public order, *security of State*, decency or morality.



So yes she has transgressed the constitution.



Hafizzz said:


> Glad that Roy is not charged for speaking the truth (Freedom of speech).




Who sad she has not been punished ?? She has been given the greatest punishment that pubilcity seekers get - *Getting Ignored*.


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## KS

indianrabbit said:


> Who is putting these posters?



Its obvious man - RAW 



indianrabbit said:


> "The benefits derived out of strikes and protests over the past four months are unemployment, destruction and bleak future for Kashmiri nation," it said.
> 
> 
> "There are only 100 to 125 stone pelters who wait for deterioration of situation so that they can indulge in loot. There has been an incident in Zakura where they snatched jewellery from a woman," the outfit said.



So true.The only thing that has emerged out of this is 3 interlocutors who get paid flights to and fro from Delhi and after 3 months they will be forgotten and economic hardships for the average Kashmiri.

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## indian navy

yes one solution only one 

we has to take back our Kashmir from Pakistan


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## Spring Onion

indianrabbit said:


> Who is putting these posters?



 *oh yeah read the language of the posters and you will feel at home in Dehli listening to Indian officials 
*



> It said unscrupulous elements were using social networking sites like Facebook to *spread "lies" and "rumours" about non-existent atrocities committed by security forces*.


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## SurvivoR

sensenreason said:


> I dont know whats cooking.....but something surely is...India has been entrapped by corrupt politicians who weakened the military and I feel India will lose Kashmir soon.



Amen to that


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## dvk_1982

Karthic Sri said:


> Have I anytime said,I am not a
> 
> 
> If you are talking about Sohrabuddin Sheikh it was Amit Shah and not Modi.
> 
> [/url]



and for god sake who is sohrabuddin ? he was a local rogue and assassin.. whats the big deal ... irony is kasab is still under trail and the time square bomb attempt guy got sentenced already.


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## Rumporum

Serious or honest question: given the history and also the stake in both countries or given the position of both countries is there or will there be ever a solution in sight?


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## Jungibaaz

Rumporum said:


> Serious or honest question: given the history and also the stake in both countries or given the position of both countries is there or will there be ever a solution in sight?



Both countries want Kashmir, neither are willing to compromise and have fought wars over it!

I can't see a solution for Kashmir coming in the next ten years at least.
But, I hope the solution is done on the negotiating table and not on the battlefield.


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## indian navy

Jana said:


> *oh yeah read the language of the posters and you will feel at home in Dehli listening to Indian officials
> *



ohh really did you saw the language 

well there is large numbers of kashmiri want peace but few pak sponsor don't want peace


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## Rumporum

Reminds me of an African saying: When two Elephants fight the grass gets trampled. This I guess is the case here unfortunately





Jungibaaz said:


> Both countries want Kashmir, neither are willing to compromise and have fought wars over it!
> 
> I can't see a solution for Kashmir coming in the next ten years at least.
> But, I hope the solution is done on the negotiating table and not on the battlefield.

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## true_indian

Rumporum said:


> Serious or honest question: given the history and also the stake in both countries or given the position of both countries is there or will there be ever a solution in sight?



Kashmir isn't going to be resolved in anyone's favor unless one of these countries completely dominates the other in every aspect. India might have a chance.


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## LaBong

Rumporum said:


> Serious or honest question: given the history and also the stake in both countries or given the position of both countries is there or will there be ever a solution in sight?



Only solution that comes to mind is a greater autonomy with open border. Indian, Pakistan and Kashmiris all should be more pragmatic on this issue. There should an win-win solution for everyone.


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## Awesome

indianrabbit said:


> Who is putting these posters?


Hakumat-e-India 

This is such a bad move, if anything these posters will serve as inspiration for others to jump in on the protests as they are obviously hitting a nerve. Indian government's each and every action is helping to snowball the issues together.


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## indian navy

Asim Aquil said:


> Hakumat-e-India
> 
> This is such a bad move, if anything these posters will serve as inspiration for others to jump in on the protests as they are obviously hitting a nerve. Indian government's each and every action is helping to snowball the issues together.



and yes Pakistan govt s trying to helping people by terrorist 

well we have to talk on full Kashmir which is Pakistan occupied and lets see


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## rockg

isnt kashmir a part of india..so whateva the allegation its indias problem to solve not outside playes to flame up the problem...


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## Karachiite

Only India thinks Kashmir belongs to them. The Kashmiris deny that and are being exterminated by the Indian army. It's like saying Nazis killing jews are part of Germany so let them kill jews because it's their problem not anyone else's. There is something called humanity that maybe you fail to understand and if you do then you need serious help.


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## KS

Abir said:


> Only solution that comes to mind is a greater autonomy with open border. Indian, Pakistan and Kashmiris all should be more pragmatic on this issue. There should an win-win solution for everyone.



Why not LoC into IB ??

I dont think an Open Border will be good for the national security - my personal opinion


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## MYSTIC

Karthic Sri said:


> Why not LoC into IB ??
> 
> I dont think an Open Border will be good for the national security - my personal opinion



how will that stop the kashimiris from protesting. It will only turn more violent. Accepting LOC as border would mean Kashmir valley is part of India and AJK is part of Pakistan. What would Kashmiris benefit from it?


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Kashmir: A Time For Freedom​**&#8220;Freedom&#8221; represents many things to people across Indian-occupied Kashmir. These divergent meanings are steadfastly united in that freedom always signifies an end to India&#8217;s authoritarian rule​*






BY ANGANA CHATTERJI 
Tuesday, 28 September 2010.
Greater Kashmir

LOS ANGELES, California&#8212;In the administration of brutality, India, the postcolony, has proven itself coequal to its former colonial masters. Kashmir is not about &#8220;Kashmir.&#8221; Governing Kashmir is about India&#8217;s coming of age as a power, its ability to disburse violence, to manipulate and dominate. Kashmir is about nostalgia, about resources, and buffer zones. The possession of Kashmir by India renders an imaginary past real, emblematic of India&#8217;s triumphant unification as a nation-state. Controlling Kashmir requires that Kashmiri demands for justice be depicted as threatening to India&#8217;s integrity. India&#8217;s contrived enemy in Kashmir is a plausible one &#8211; the Muslim &#8220;Other,&#8221; India&#8217;s historically manufactured nemesis.

*What is at Stake?* 

Between June 11 and September 13 of 2010, Kashmir witnessed the execution of 87 youth, men, and women by India&#8217;s police, paramilitary, and military. Forces opened fire on crowds, tortured children, detained elders without explanation, and coerced false confessions. Since June, there have been 63 days of curfew and 69 days of strikes and agitation. On September 11, the day of Eid-ul-Fitr, the violence continued. The paramilitary and police verbally abused and physically attacked civil society dissenters. Summer 2010 was not unprecedented. Kashmir has been subjected to much, much worse.

The use of public and summary execution for civic torture has been held necessary to Kashmir&#8217;s subjugation by the India. Militarization has asserted vigilante jurisdiction over space and politics. The violence is staged, ritualistic, and performative, used to re-assert India&#8217;s power over Kashmir&#8217;s body. The fabrications of the military &#8212; fake encounters, escalating perceptions of cross-border threat &#8212; function as the truth-making apparatus of the nation. We are witness to the paradox of history, as calibrated punishment &#8212; the lynching of the Muslim body, the object of criminality &#8212; enforces submission of a stateless nation (Kashmir) to the once-subaltern postcolony.

Kashmir is about the spectacle. India&#8217;s violence functions as an intervention, to discipline and punish, to provoke and dominate. The summer of 2010 evidenced India&#8217;s manoeuvring against Kashmir&#8217;s determination to decide its future. The use of violence by the Indian forces was deliberate, their tactics cruel and precise, amidst the groundswell of public dissent. This was the third summer, since 2008, of indefatigable civil society uprisings for &#8220;Azaadi&#8221; (freedom).

What is India hoping to achieve? One, that Kashmiris would submit to India&#8217;s domination, forsaking their claim to separation from India (to be an independent state or, for some, to be assimilated with Pakistan), or their demand for full autonomy. Or, that provoked, grief-stricken, and weary, Kashmiris would take up arms once again, giving India the opportunity to fortify its propaganda that Kashmiri civil society dissent against Indian rule is nurtured and endorsed today by external forces and groups in Pakistan and Afghanistan. If the latter transpires, New Delhi will manipulate this to neutralize Kashmiri demands for de-militarization and conflict resolution, to extend its annexation of Kashmir, and further normalize civic and legal states of exception.

If India succeeds in both provoking local armed struggle and linking Kashmiri resistance to foreign terror, it will acquire international sanction to continue its government of Kashmir on grounds of &#8220;national security,&#8221; and &#8220;have proof&#8221; that Kashmiris are not organically debating India&#8217;s government of them, but are pressurized into it by external forces. India can then reinforce its armed forces in Kashmir, presently 671,000 strong, to prolong the killing spree.

Such provocation as policy is a mistake. Such legitimation of military rule will produce intractable conflict and violence. All indications are that Kashmiri civil society dissent will not abate. It is not externally motivated, but historically compelled.

Dominant nation-states overlook that freedom struggles are not adherent to the moralities of violence versus nonviolence, but reflect a desire to be free. Dominant nation-states forget that the greater the oppression, the more fervent is resistance. The greater the violence, the more likely is the provocation to counter-violence.

Whether dissent in Kashmir turns into organized armed struggle or continues as mass-based peaceful resistance is dependent upon India&#8217;s political decisions. If India&#8217;s subjugation persists, it is conceivable that the movement for nonviolent dissent, mobilized since 2004, will erode. Signs indicate that it is already slightly threadbare. It is conceivable that India&#8217;s brutality will induce Kashmiri youth to close the distance between stones and petrol bombs, or more. If India fails to act, if Pakistan acts only in its self-interest, and if the international community does not insist on an equitable resolution to the Kashmir dispute, it is conceivable, that, forsaken by the world, Kashmiris will be compelled to take up arms again.

Misogynist groups such as the Lashkar-e-Toiba, al-Qaeda, or the Taliban are mercenaries looking for takers in Kashmir. By India&#8217;s record, there are between 500-700 militants in the Kashmir Valley today. These groups have not been successful because Kashmiris have been disinterested in alliances with them, not because the Indian army is successful in controlling them. This time, an armed mobilization by Kashmiris would include an even stronger mass movement than that which occurred between 1990 and 2004/2007, led by youth whose lives have been shaped by the two-decade long violence of militarization.

Who wants that? Can the South Asian Subcontinent, already nuclearized, survive that? India is accountable to keep this from happening. Not through the use of unmitigated force, but through listening to the demands for change made by Kashmiris.

*Will to Power* 

This summer, India&#8217;s violence on Kashmir was threaded through with strategic calculation. The police, military, and paramilitary have, without provocation, brutalized widespread peaceable protests across Kashmir that were dissenting the suppression of civil society by Indian forces. Hostile Indian forces acted with the knowledge and sanction of the Government of India and the Government of Jammu and Kashmir. The repeated repression by state forces provoked civilians, whose political means of expression and demands have been systematically denied, to engage in stone pelting. The conditions of militarization prompted them to be in non-compliance with declared, undeclared, and unremitting curfews. In instances, civilians engaged in acts of violence, including arson.

Each instance of civilian violence was provoked by the unmitigated and first use of force on civilians and/or extrajudicial killings on the part of Indian forces. Peaceable civilian protests by women and men dissented the actions of Indian forces. Individuals, caught in the midst of the unrest, or mourning the death of a civilian, were fired upon by Indian forces, leading to other killings by Indian forces, more civilian protests, greater use of force by the police and paramilitary, use of torture in certain instances by Indian forces, more killings by Indian forces, larger, even violent, civilian protests, and further state repression.

In Summer 2010, dominant discourse focused on the use of stone pelting and on the instances of violence by youth in Kashmir as the reason for armed action on the part of the state. Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh focused on the need for efficient tactics in &#8220;crowd control.&#8221; India&#8217;s elite intelligentsia, inculcated into &#8220;rational&#8221; conduct, and no longer outraged by suffering, assessed the costs and benefits of militaristic violence.

Civil society demonstrations in Kashmir are not a law and order problem, as they have been reported. Stone pelting, and incidents of arson and violence, are not causal to the violence that is routine in Kashmir today. Stone pelting does not seek to kill, and has not resulted in death. Pro-freedom leaders (termed &#8220;separatists&#8221; by India) have emphasized nonviolent civil disobedience, and have appealed to civil society to not engage in violent protests in reaction to the violence and killings by Indian forces.

Indian potentates disregard that suppression acts to catalyze the resistance movement in Kashmir. The Government of India continues to monitor the resistance movement, shifting the boundaries of acceptable practise of civil liberties. Kashmiris are allowed to protest in New Delhi, while in Kashmir sloganeering (&#8220;Go, India, Go Back,&#8221; &#8220;Indian Dogs Go Home,&#8221; &#8220;Quit Kashmir,&#8221 is met with force. When Masarat Alam Bhat, a rising pro-freedom leader, issued an appeal to Indian soldiers in July to &#8220;Quit Kashmir,&#8221; Indian authorities banned its circulation.

Acts of violence by protesting civilians increased as military violence continued into September. On September 13, crowds in Kashmir torched a Christian missionary school and some government offices while protesting the call to desecrate the Qur&#8217;an by Florida Pastor Terry Jones. On September 13, 18 civilians were killed by the Indian forces in Kashmir (a police officer also died). Provocation is easy in a context of sustained brutality. Provoking Kashmiri dissenters to violence serves to confirm the dominant story of Muslims as &#8220;violent.&#8221; Yet again, several pro-freedom leaders condemned the attack on the Christian school and renewed their call for nonviolent dissent.

On September 13, the Government of India stated its willingness to engage with Kashmiri groups that reject violence. New Delhi did not apply the same precondition to itself. Nor did it acknowledge that pro-freedom groups have repeatedly opposed the use of violence in recent years.

The Kashmiri Muslim is caricatured as violent by India&#8217;s dominant political and media apparatus. There is a refusal to recognize the inequitable historical-political power relations at play between Muslim-prevalent Kashmir&#8217;s governance by Hindu-dominant India. The racialization of the Muslim, as &#8220;Other&#8221; and barbaric, reveals the xenophobia of the India. Distinctions in method and power, between stone pelter and armed soldier, between &#8220;terrorist&#8221; and &#8220;freedom fighter,&#8221; are inconvenient.

The state discourse is animated by the prejudice that Kashmiri inclinations to violence are subsidized by Pakistan. Such misconceptions ignore that while Kashmiris did travel to Pakistan to seek arms training, such activity was largely confined to the early days of the armed militancy, circa late 1980s through the mid-1990s. Pathologies of &#8220;violent Muslims&#8221; legitimate the discursive and physical violence of the Indian &#8220;security&#8221; forces, which is presented as necessary protection for the maintenance of the Hindu majoritarian Indian nation.

I have spent considerable time between July 2006 and July 2010 learning about Kashmir, working in Kashmir. In undertaking the work of the International People&#8217;s Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice in Indian-administered Kashmir, I have travelled across Kashmir&#8217;s cities and countryside, from Srinagar to Kupwara, through Shopian and Islamabad, with Parvez Imroz, Zahir-Ud-Din, and Khurram Parvez. I have witnessed the violence that is perpetrated on Kashmiris by India&#8217;s military, paramilitary, and police. I have walked through the graveyards that hold Kashmir&#8217;s dead, and have met with grieving families. I have sat with witnesses, young men, who described how Indian forces chased down and executed their friends for participating in civil disobedience. I have met women whose sons were disappeared. I have met with &#8220;half-widows.&#8221; I have spoken with youth, women and men, who are enraged. I have also spoken with persons who were violated by militants in the 1990s. Peoples&#8217; experiences with the reprehensible atrocities of militancy do not imply the abdication of their desires for self-determination. New Delhi deliberately conflates militancy with the people&#8217;s mass movement for liberation.

I have met with torture survivors, non-militants and former militants, who testified to the sadism of the forces. Men who had petrol injected through the anus. Water-boarding, mutilation, being paraded naked, **** of women, children, and men, starvation, humiliation, and psychological torture. An eagle tattoo on the arm of a man was reportedly identified by an army officer as a symbol of Pakistan-held Azad Kashmir, even as the man clarified the tattoo was from his childhood. The skin containing it was burned. The officer said, the man recalled: &#8220;When you look at this, think of Azaadi.&#8221; A mother, reportedly asked to watch her daughter&#8217;s **** by army personnel, pleaded for her release. They refused. She then pleaded that she could not watch, asking to be sent out of the room or be killed. The soldier pointed a gun to her forehead, stating he would grant her wish, and shot her dead before they proceeded to **** the daughter.

Who are the forces? Disenfranchised caste and other groups, Assamese, Nagas, Sikhs, Dalits (erstwhile &#8220;untouchable&#8221; peoples), and Muslims from Kashmir, are being used to combat Kashmiris. Why did 34 soldiers commit suicide in Kashmir in 2008, and 52 fratricidal killings take place between January 21, 2004 and July 14, 2009?

Laws authorize soldiers to question, raid houses, detain and arrest without chargesheets, and prolong incarceration without due process. They blur distinctions between military/paramilitary, &#8220;legality&#8221;/&#8220;illegality.&#8221; Citing &#8220;national security,&#8221; Indian forces in Kashmir shoot and kill on uncorroborated suspicion, with impunity from prosecution. Yet, revoking the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, for example, will not stop the horror in Kashmir. India&#8217;s laws are not the primary contention. India&#8217;s political and military existence in Kashmir is the issue. Legal impunity is the cover for the moral impunity of Indian rule.

Is the military willing to withdraw from Kashmir? Since 2002, the Government of India has procured 5 billion US dollars in weaponry from the Israeli state. Authoritarian alliances between once subjugated peoples mark another irony of history. Five billion dollars is a colossal sum for India, where 38 percent of the world&#8217;s poor reside. Eight of the poorest states in India are more impoverished than the 26 poorest countries of the African continent. Five billion dollars, in addition to the other monies and resources invested in the militarization of Kashmir, do not evidence an intent to withdraw.

Human rights violations in Kashmir will not stop without removing the military. The military cannot be removed without surgically rupturing India&#8217;s will to power over Kashmir.

*Inflexible Diplomacy *

India needs to make the &#8220;Kashmir problem&#8221; disappear. India&#8217;s diplomacy is directed toward assuming a role as a world power, a world market, and a world negotiator in global politics. India is also seeking a seat on the United Nations Security Council.

What constitutes India&#8217;s dialogue with Kashmiris in conditions of extreme subjugation? The Government of India has scheduled a hurried timeframe in propelling Track II diplomacy into success, to secure a proposal for resolution that is acceptable to India and Pakistan, and, ostensibly, to Kashmiris. The terms of reference set by New Delhi exclude discussions of self-determination or heightened autonomy, boundary negotiations, the Siachen glacier and critical water-resources, and renegotiations of the Line of Control.

New Delhi and Islamabad appear to be in collusion. If Pakistan overlooks India&#8217;s annexation of Jammu and Kashmir, India would be willing to forget Pakistan&#8217;s occupation of another fragment of Kashmir. The Musharraf Formula is no longer acceptable to the Government of Pakistan. Afghanistan is the current priority, not Kashmir. Conversations on the phased withdrawal of troops by India and Pakistan at the border, local self-government, and the creation of a joint supervision mechanism in Jammu and Kashmir, involving India, Pakistan, and Kashmir, are at an impasse.

The Government in New Delhi is looking to neutralize Kashmir&#8217;s demand for self-determination or unabridged autonomy, pushing forward a diluted &#8220;autonomy,&#8221; seeking to assimilate Kashmir with finality into the Indian nation-state. New Delhi is seeking buy-in, which it hopes to push through using the collaborator coterie in Srinagar. Local self-government would be New Delhi&#8217;s compromise &#8212; a weak autonomy &#8212; with a joint supervisory apparatus constituted of India, Pakistan, and Kashmir.

New Delhi hopes that the Kashmiri leadership, including pro-freedom groups, can be restrained, for a price, and weakened through infighting. Certain segments of the pro-freedom leadership have, through history, lacked vision, honesty, and the ability to prioritize collaboration for justice and peace in Kashmir. Certain segments of the religious and political leadership have been unable to collaborate meaningfully with civil society, with observant Muslims and those irreligious, and with non-Muslims. The spiritual commitment to justice in Islamic tradition has receded as religious determinations embrace instrumental political rationality. The determination of what &#8220;freedom&#8221; is has been deferred since 1931; instead there has been a focus on immediate and small political gains.

This has plagued and rendered ineffectual segments of the complex Hurriyat alliance in the present, which is often unable to capitalize on the exuberant people&#8217;s movement on the streets and pathways of Kashmir. Segments of the pro-freedom leadership have focused on New Delhi rather than Kashmir civil society. New Delhi has fixated on enabling this dynamic, using vast resources to create a collaborator class in Srinagar that undermines the will of the Kashmiri people.

While Pakistan&#8217;s politicians have pointed to India&#8217;s injustices, they have not reciprocally addressed issues in the management of Pakistan-held Kashmir, including the deflation of movements for the unification of Kashmir. The crisis of state in Pakistan, and the role of its ruling elite in vitiating people&#8217;s democratic processes, remains a pitfall for regional security.

The logic that Muslim-prevalent Kashmir must stay with secular India or join Muslim-dominated Pakistan is configured by India&#8217;s and Pakistan&#8217;s internal ideological needs and identitarian politics. Neither is inevitable. Neither speak to the foremost aspiration of Kashmiris.

The Government of India&#8217;s &#8220;inclusive dialogue&#8221; this summer has systematically disregarded Kashmiri civil society demands, thrusting a violent peace brokered by New Delhi&#8217;s agents of change. New Delhi has invited various Kashmiri stakeholders from civil society as well. Their articulations, however, have not shifted the agenda, even as bringing people to the table is used to legitimate India&#8217;s visage of inclusivity.

What do a majority of Kashmiris want? First, to secure a good faith agreement with New Delhi and Islamabad regarding the right of Kashmiris to determine the course of their future, set a timeframe, and define the interim conditions necessary to proceed. Following which, civil society and political leaders would ensue processes to educate, debate, and consult civil society, including minority groups, in sketching the terms of reference for a resolution, prior to negotiations with India and Pakistan.

Significantly, pro-freedom leader Syeed Ali Geelani&#8217;s statement of August 31 sought to shift the terms of engagement, not requiring the precondition of self-determination or the engagement of Pakistan. Unless New Delhi responds, the protests in Kashmir will continue. Geelani&#8217;s statement, supported by the All Parties Hurriyat Conference leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, testifies to this. The mood in the streets testifies to this.

New Delhi&#8217;s current approach repudiates what Kashmiris want. The omissions made by New Delhi are roadblocks to constituting a minimum agenda for justice and an enduring and relevant peace process.

The Government of India&#8217;s &#8220;inclusive dialogue&#8221; this summer does not recognize Kashmir as an international dispute.

The Government of India&#8217;s &#8220;inclusive dialogue&#8221; this summer does not include: An immediate halt to, and moratorium on, extrajudicial killings by the Indian military, paramilitary, and police; An immediate halt to, and moratorium on, the use of torture, kidnapping, enforced disappearance, and gendered violence by the Indian military, paramilitary, and police; A plan for the release of political prisoners, the return of those exiled, and contending with the issue of displacement; Agreements on an immediate &#8220;soft border&#8221; policy between Kashmir, India, and Pakistan, to enable the resurgence of Kashmir&#8217;s political economy; Agreements to non-interference in the exercise of civil liberties of Kashmiris, including the right to civil disobedience, and freedom of speech, assembly, religion, movement, and travel.

New Delhi has refused to acknowledge the extent of human rights violations, and how they are integral to maintaining dominion. New Delhi has not explained why militarization in Kashmir has been disproportionately used to brutalize Kashmiris, when ostensibly the Indian forces are in Kashmir to secure the border zones.

The Government of India&#8217;s &#8220;inclusive dialogue&#8221; this summer does not include a plan for the proactive demilitarization and the immediate revocation of all authoritarian laws. Nor does it include: A plan for the transparent identification and dismantling of detention and torture centres, including in army camps; A plan for the instatement of a Truth and Justice Commission for political and psychosocial reparation, and reckoning loss; A plan for the international and transparent investigations into unknown and mass graves constitutive of crimes against humanity committed by the Indian military, paramilitary, and police. Such omissions are a travesty of any process promising &#8220;resolution.&#8221;

*Islamphobia and Realpolitik *

New Delhi has been the self-appointed arbitrator in determining the justifications of Kashmir&#8217;s claims to freedom. Kashmir&#8217;s claims are historically unique and bona fide. History &#8212; the United Nations Resolutions of 1948, Nehru&#8217;s promise of plebiscite (to rethink the temporary accession determined by the Hindu-descent Maharaja, Hari Singh), Article 370 of the Indian Constitution &#8212; is jettisoned by an amnesic India. Official nationalism seeks to rewrite history, affixing Kashmir to India, to overwrite memory. Within the battlefields of knowledge/power, official &#8220;truth&#8221; becomes the contagion sustaining cultures of repression and mass atrocity, creating cultures of grief.

India is apprehensive that any change in the status quo in Kashmir would foster internal crises of gigantic proportion in India. Across the nation there is considerable discontent, as dreams and difference are mortgaged to the idea of India fabricated by the elite. Adivasis (indigenous peoples), Dalits, disenfranchised caste groups, women, religious, ethnic, and gender minorities are fatigued by the nation&#8217;s deferred promises. Forty-four million Adivasis have been displaced since 1947. Central India is torn asunder, and as Maoists are designated as the latest &#8220;national threat,&#8221; national memory forgets the systematic brutalization of peoples in the tribal belt that led to a call to arms. Then there is the Northeast, Punjab, the massacre of Muslims in Narendra Modi&#8217;s Gujarat, riots against Christians in Orissa, farmer suicides, the plight of peasants and Adivasis of the Narmada Valley where dams are not the &#8220;temples of India,&#8221; but its burial grounds. Kashmir cannot remain India&#8217;s excuse to avoid dealing with its own internal matters.

Indian civil society decries that Kashmir is not deserving of autonomy or separation, as it, as an assumed Islamist state, would be a threat to India&#8217;s democracy. To assume that a Muslim-majority state in Kashmir will be ruled by Islamist extremists in support of global terror reflects majoritarian India&#8217;s racism. Dominant Indian (left-oriented) civil society must rethink its characterization of Kashmiri civil society as prevalently &#8220;Jamaati.&#8221; Jamaat is Arabic for assembly. &#8220;Jamaati&#8221; is used by Indian civil society to imply Islamist or fundamentalist. The reference can often be translated as Muslim = Jamaati, and Muslim-observant = fundamentalist.

Indians of Hindu descent largely overlook that India&#8217;s democracy is infused with Hindu cultural dominance. Indian civil society assumes that Islam and democracy are incompatible, supported by the inflamed Islamphobia in the polities of the West. Importantly, India forgets that in its own history with the British, freedom fighters had noted that the oppressor cannot adjudge when a stateless people are &#8220;deserving&#8221; of freedom.

Freedom is fundamentally an experiment with risk that Kashmiris must be willing to take. The global community must support them in making such risk ethical. Jammu and Kashmir is a Muslim majority space. The population of India-held Kashmir was recorded at approximately 6,900,000 in 2008, of which Muslims are approximately 95 percent. Kashmir&#8217;s future as a democratic, inclusive, and pro-secular space is linked to what happens within India and Pakistan.

Kashmiris that wish to be separate from India and Pakistan must assess the difficult alliances yet to be built between Kashmir, Jammu, and Ladakh, and between Muslims and Hindu Pandits, Dogra Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Christians, indigenous groups, and others. Then, there is the question of what lies ahead between Indian-held Kashmir and Pakistan-held Kashmir. Minority groups, such as Kashmiri Pandits, must refuse New Delhi&#8217;s hyper-nationalist strategy in using the Pandit community to create opposition between Muslims and Hindus in Kashmir, as part of a strategy to religionize the issue and govern through communalization.

Where is the international community on the issue of Kashmir? In present history, Palestine, Ireland, Tibet, and Kashmir share correspondence. In Tibet, 1.2 million died (1949-1979), and 320,000 were made refugees. In Ireland, 3,710 have died (1969- 2010). For Israel, the occupation of Palestine has resulted in 10,148 dead (1987-2010), with 4.7 million refugees registered with the United Nations (1987-2008). In Kashmir, 70,000 are dead, over 8,000 have been disappeared, and 250,000 have been displaced (1989-2010).

During British Prime Minister David Cameron&#8217;s recent visit to India, he was asked to refrain from bringing up the &#8220;K&#8221; word. United States President Barak Obama&#8217;s proposed visit to New Delhi in November is already laden with prohibitions. India&#8217;s rule in Kashmir and its larger human rights record are among them. As well, right-wing Hindu advocacy groups have been successful in securing the silence of many on Capitol Hill on the issue of Kashmir. The Kashmiri diaspora has been partly effective in bringing visibility to the issue, even as the community remains ideologically and politically fragmented. International advocates have propagated an &#8220;economic&#8221; approach to &#8220;normalcy.&#8221; This avoids the fact that militarization impacts every facet of life, making economic development outside of political change impossible.

The United States and United Kingdom have debated the reasons for their involvement in Kashmir. In 2010, 313 soldiers from the United States have died in Afghanistan, as the United Kingdom sustained 90 fatalities. Of paramount concern for both is bringing their forces home without compromising the principles of NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organization) operations in the region. To accomplish this would require that Pakistan move sizeable forces from the Indo-Kashmir-Pak border to the ****** frontier. This cannot be done without cessation in Indo-Pak hostilities, which cannot be achieved without the resolution of the Kashmir dispute. However, Kashmir&#8217;s resolution cannot mean a sanction to Pakistan&#8217;s encroachment on Afghanistan, which, given the political situation in the region, remains a highly likely possibility. For the United States and India, the containment of China is another issue, also linked to Kashmir.

Kashmiris in Kashmir are caught amidst world events and regional machinations, and the unresolved histories of the Subcontinent. The India&#8217;s military governance penetrates every facet of life. The sounds of war haunt mohallas. The hyper-presence of militarization forms a graphic shroud over Kashmir: Detention and interrogation centres, army cantonments, abandoned buildings, bullet holes, bunkers and watchtowers, detour signs, deserted public squares, armed personnel, counter-insurgents, and vehicular and electronic espionage. Armed control regulates and governs bodies. It has been reported that, since 1990, Kashmir&#8217;s economy has incurred a reported loss of more than 1,880,000 million Indian Rupees (40.4 billion US Dollars). The immensity of psychosocial losses is impossible to calculate. The conditions of everyday life are in peril. They elicit suffocating anger and despair, telling a story of the web of violence in which civil society in Kashmir is interned.

For India, constituting a coherent national collective has required multiple wars on difference. National governance determines territory and belonging, disenfranchising subaltern claims. Local struggles for self-determination are brutalized to reproduce obedient national collectives. Systemic acts of oppression chart a history, as relations of power are choreographed by nation-states in the suppression of others. Massacre, gendercide, genocide, occupation, function within a continuum of tactics in negation/annihilation.

India&#8217;s relation to Kashmir is not about Kashmir. Kashmir&#8217;s aversion to being subsumed by India is not reducible to history. If violence breaks lives, Kashmir is quite broken. If oppression produces resistance, Kashmir is profusely resilient. From Michel Foucault to Achille Mbembe, and so much in-between, we are reminded of the myriad techniques in governance that seek to subjugate, while naming subjugation as subject formation, as protection, &#8220;security,&#8221; law and order, and progress.

Realpolitik triumphs against a backdrop of persistent refusal. Through summer heat and winter snow, across interminable stretches of concertina wire, broken windowpanes, walls, barricades, and checkpoints, the dust settles to rise again. The agony of loss. The desecration of life. Kashmir&#8217;s spiritual fatalities are staggering. The dead are not forgotten. Remembrance and mourning are habitual practises of dissent. &#8220;We are not free. But we know freedom,&#8221; KP tells me. &#8220;The movement is our freedom. Our dreams are our freedom. India cannot take that away. Our resistance will live.&#8221;

Dr. Angana Chatterji is Professor, Department of Anthropology, California Institute of Integral Studies. She is Co-convener of the International People&#8217;s Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice in Indian-administered Kashmir. 

Kashmir: A Time For Freedom | PakNationalists.com | Home Of Pakistani Nationalists Online


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## Hyde

YouTube - Mere watan teri jannat main - Rukhsana Murtaza


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## Hulk

Samay samay kee baat hai, samay bada balwan hota hai, aaj tumhara to kal hamara.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

rockg said:


> isnt kashmir a part of india..so whateva the allegation its indias problem to solve not outside playes to flame up the problem...



F.A.I.L...


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## mikey

Man!damn whose the author here,how he get so much time to write all this ?? My only answer as we always say in UN meet and confrence - KASHMIR IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF INDIA ,1st you end the illegal occupation.. courtsey Govt of india


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## DesiGuy

---------- Post added at 10:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 PM ----------

Zaki, nice song!


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## KS

MYSTIC said:


> how will that stop the kashimiris from protesting. It will only turn more violent. Accepting LOC as border would mean Kashmir valley is part of India and AJK is part of Pakistan. What would Kashmiris benefit from it?



Fine,but will it not endanger national security if a policy of open borders in pursued.

Case in point Nepal border. How many arms smuggling,fake notes smuggling goes through these borders..? DO you want the same to take place in the western border also ?

Also its not only arms,fake currency..there is a serious threat of terrorists using these routes to get unfettered access into India.

Also coming to your point - once the LoC becomes IB,Kashmir becomes an sovereign,undisputed part INdia and after that we can use the "necessary" measures to quell the violence and no country can ask anything because it becomes an internal matter of India.


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## KS

One who gets to read her essays will know that she is just another wannabe.

A virulently anti-Hindu,anti-establishment,anti-India female and no wonder the venom comes out as the ink in her pen.


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## The HBS Guy

Karthic Sri said:


> One who gets to read her essays will know that she is just another wannabe.
> 
> A virulently anti-Hindu,anti-establishment,anti-India female and no wonder the venom comes out as the ink in her pen.



It's amazing how people like these forget how much they owe to the country that has given them everything.

Perfect parasites!


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Arundhati Roy and Kashmir's struggle for justice​**Roy's persecution for speaking out over Kashmir shows India's growing intolerance of the region's distress​*





The current unrest in Kashmir has met with an increasingly brutal response from the Indian military. Photograph: Farooq Khan/EPA


Murtaza Shibli guardian.co.uk, 
Thursday 28 October 2010 13.59 

The news that the prize-winning Indian author Arundhati Roy may be arrested for her remarks about Kashmir is not surprising. It is a sign of growing Indian intolerance towards the issue. During the current phase of the Kashmiri intifada, the only Indian response to Kashmiri demands for justice and self-determination has been the use of overwhelming military force. More than 112 civilians  mostly youths  have been killed and several thousand injured, mainly by the Indian military and paramilitary.


In the absence of strong international criticism, the Indian state has been emboldened to crush any dissent or demands of justice ferociously. Intimidating Kashmiri civil society has always been part of the standard Indian response, but it has grown exponentially over the last few months. In early July, the police arrested Mian Qayoom, president of the Kashmir Bar Association (the main lawyers' body), for protesting against human rights violations. He was arrested under the draconian Public Safety Act, which authorises incarceration for up to two years if the authorities feel that the detainee may disturb peace and order or threaten the security of the state.


Several other human rights activists, such as Ghulam Nabi Shaheen and political workers remain behind bars, along with hundreds of Kashmiri youths who have been detained for offences such as throwing stones at gun-toting Indian armed forces.


Frustrated by having to treat the mounting casualties amid curfew restrictions and with dwindling medical supplies, a group of doctors at the government medical college in Srinagar staged a peaceful sit-in  only to be accused by the police of various "offences" including rioting and "disobedience to order duly promulgated by public servant". The police also accused them of inciting people and using "anti-national slogans". The largest local newspaper, Greater Kashmir, lamented that creating an atmosphere of intimidation in this way "speaks of the mindset that always contributed to the worsening of the situation". It continued: "Rather than establishing a connect with its people and knowing from them what has gone wrong and how can it be corrected, government, by initiating such actions against people, is only pushing the situation towards worse."


From the very beginning of the current unrest, the government adopted the policy of restricting journalists reporting on demonstrations and brutal government responses. The Indian army and paramilitary forces beat several journalists, refused to respect their curfew passes and even forced closure of leading newspapers as their offices remained locked and the journalists were denied access. In one such incident in July this year, 12 photojournalists working for local, national and international publications suffered serious injuries from security forces trying to stop them recording the demonstrations. One of the BBC's Urdu service journalists, Riaz Masroor, was stopped and beaten by police as he went to collect his curfew pass on 9 July. According the BBC, he suffered a fractured arm.

In September, the Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ) renewed its call to allow Kashmiri journalists to cover the unrest. This is how Anuradha Bhasin, the executive editor of the Kashmir Times, described the situation to me in an email in September: "The level of intimidation is so high that many reporters have been forcibly doing table [desk-based] stories, mainly operating from the homes. And as an editor, sometimes, even I find that a safer arrangement, given the vulnerability of the reporters in simply stepping out of their homes".


The current phase of intifada has deeply exposed Indian vulnerability in Kashmir. In absence of any Pakistani support to the new generation of Kashmiris, Indian claims to blame Pakistan, Islamic terrorism and Lashkar-e-Taiba have lost credibility even among its own population.


This has provoked several newspaper reports and opinion articles by Indian journalists and commentators that not only question India's brutal tactics but also have shown sympathy to Kashmiri demands. It has created what Roy rightly describes as "panic about many voices", and the threat of charging her with sedition, she says, "is meant to frighten the civil rights groups and young journalists into keeping quiet".

As the "ISI or Laskhar-e-Taiba" theory of the protests becomes increasingly untenable, Kashmiri demands are finding greater resonance within Indian civil society. The threat to Roy may be a crude attempt to prevent such criticism from gathering momentum at a time when Barack Obama is planning a visit to India next month. India is determined to keep Kashmir out of the picture and, to achieve this, intimidation and terror against Kashmiris has already entered another phase.

Arundhati Roy and Kashmir's struggle for justice | Murtaza Shibli | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk


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## S_O_C_O_M

*State terrorism cannot suppress Kashmiris struggle: Nayeem​*
Srinagar, October 30 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, APHC leader Nayeem Ahmad Khan has maintained that Indian state terrorism cannot suppress Kashmiris ongoing liberation struggle.

Nayeem Ahmed Khan, in a statement in Srinagar urged the pro-movement leaders to forge greater unity among their ranks to take the ongoing struggle to its logical conclusion.

The APHC leader reiterated that the matchless sacrifices offered by the Kashmiri people would not be allowed go waste. We respect the sacrifices rendered by our people for a just cause, he added.

Nayeem Khan deplored that Indian troops were using killings, extra-judicial murders, random arrests, illegal detentions, custodial disappearances and molestation of women besides arson and destruction of the civilian property as a weapon of war in the territory to break the Kashmiris resolve to get rid of Indian bondage. 

State terrorism cannot suppress Kashmiris? struggle: Nayeem | Kashmir Media Service


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Stepped up acts of Indian state terrorism denounced ​*
Srinagar, October 28 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, the Tehreek-e-Hurriyet (TeH) Jammu and Kashmir has denounced the stepped up acts of Indian state terrorism in the territory.

The spokesman of Tehreek-e-Hurriyet in a statement issued in Srinagar said that Indian Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) personnel barged into the houses in Palhalan Pattan and subjected the inmates to brute force. The CRPF men molested the women and vandalised the household goods, he added. 

He said that Indian police resorted to heavy lathi charge and tear gas shelling against the peaceful protestors in Nagam Chadoora who were protesting against the illegal detention of three innocent Kashmiri youth, Irfan, Imtiaz and Muddasar. 

Condemning the gross human rights violations by Indian troops, he expressed concern over the deteriorating health of illegally detained Hurriyet leaders and activists including Muhammad Ashraf Sehrai, Mir Hafeez, Muhammad Rafiq Ghanai, Ayub Dar and others in the jails. The authorities have not provided them with sufficient medical facilities due to which they have developed various ailments, he maintained

Stepped up acts of Indian state terrorism denounced | Kashmir Media Service


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## Fireurimagination

NEW DELHI: Militants in Jammu and Kashmir have expressed their willingness to present a "peace plan" during their meeting with the group of interlocutors appointed by the Centre, a move seen as "something important" by Dilip Padgaonkar, who led the three-member team.

Giving details about their meetings with those from militant groups, Padgaonkar said, "The first time we met guys from terrorist organisations. They said would you mind coming again once. We need to talk to you. So we went a second time."

"And the second time, during an hour and a half, something quite surprising took place which was one of those guys who acted as spokesperson of one of these organisations said to us that they would like to submit to us also a peace plan," he said in an interview to a TV channel.

The person asked the group whether they would be prepared to wait for few days because they too wanted their voice to be heard.

"They believed that they have a roadmap etc. So we said we have come to listen to you. We are quite prepared. As and when you prepare your point of view, let us know and we will examine that as well. I see this as something important because this is when the idea came that you need to talk to people. That was the message given to us," he said.

Replying to objections raised about the meeting of Radha Kumar, one of the three interlocutors, with people accused of terror, she said, "They do represent, unfortunately, a rather ugly view point in Kashmir but that is important for us to meet them."

She said the purpose of her visit to prison was to meet young detainees "stonepelters" and political prisoners. It was during one such visit that she met people charged with terror which transpired into an "interesting meeting", she said.

She said the view of terrorists may be "unpalatable but that we must listen to them."

Kumar said, "As far as the dissident groups are concerned especially the Hurriyat groups we do understand their compulsions and we will always be willing to listen to them, their point of view. That is part of our mandate."

She said it was very rare to meet the Mirwaiz, Geelani or leaders of that opinion on a first visit.

"It (peace process) needs to build up," she said adding that there was not commitment for such meeting in next visit.

On BJP's accusation against them of using the language of separatists, Padgaonkar said if the group was speaking their language, they would not not have been boycotted.

When asked about his statement on factoring in of Pakistan, Padgaonkar said the country has been involved in Jammu and Kashmir since 1947-48 through overt means and covert means of violence and diplomatic discussion.

Former Central Information Commissioner Ansari said resistance from Hurriyat leaders as well as a "major political party" is a hindrance in their access to certain sections of people both in Kashmir as well as in Jammu.

Kumar said her comments on changes in the Constitution to accommodate demand of Azadi were "distorted".

"My comments were distorted. What I did say was that the Indian Constitution has proved itself flexible time and again. If the Parliament is convinced that there is some solution, that require any change. That would be up to them to decide," she said.

The academician also stressed for great degree of freedom on ground particularly removal of seize like situation.

Padgaonkar said there was great degree of alienation in all section of people particularly young people.

"Interlocutors here have come and gone. Promises were made but not kept...We are for an engagement for the dialogue process but until there is any change on the ground the whole exercise is going to be futile," he said.

Read more: Kashmir militants to submit peace plan to interlocutors - The Times of India Kashmir militants to submit peace plan to interlocutors - The Times of India

Kashmir militants to submit peace plan to interlocutors - The Times of India

A good start I would say, what say should India talk to militants?


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## KS

Fireurimagination said:


> A good start I would say, what say should India talk to militants?



First thing is that we should distinguish betweeen the militants and terrorists.

Talks can be held with groups like Hizbul Mujaheddin but no dealings should be kept with groups like LeT,JeM.

Secondly the pre-condition of immediate cease-fire with a gradual renunciation of violence/arms must be made in exchange for creating an alternative means of livelihood for the militants and a renewed life

No negotiation must be made at the point of gun.

Thirdly only autonomy must be discussed.....NO Secession.

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## Fireurimagination

Karthic Sri said:


> First thing is that we should distinguish betweeen the militants and terrorists.
> 
> Talks can be held with groups like Hizbul Mujaheddin but no dealings should be kept with groups like LeT,JeM.
> 
> Secondly the pre-condition of immediate cease-fire with a gradual renunciation of violence/arms must be made in exchange for creating an alternative means of livelihood for the militants and a renewed life
> 
> No negotiation must be made at the point of gun.
> 
> Thirdly only autonomy must be discussed.....NO Secession.



Agree with each and every point of yours, I do believe the North East model could be replicated in Kashmir but surely there are few differences especially the outside support and the religious angle


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## Y2A

*Curing Crescent

by Ahson Malick on 2010/10/04 ·*



Has anyone observed a journey? Crescents journey? Crescents journey is quite fascinating when journey completes it becomes full moon, sign of intoxicating excellence, goddess of dreamers, shins high over failed saints and unbelievers. Its journey has always been a marquee, raised questions, created uncertainty, but still it light the paths in the dark, To feel its journey one can follow it over the wastelands, trouble waters, and watch drowning souls, mourning spirits, some in love of its journey and some in hate of its shine, some praising its existence some mocking its lime, painting dark from its pale light , what they ignore is fact that its a cycle and at the end of it crescent cures into full moon, journey completes , no more darks, no more pales, journey of crescent cured it to prevail. Failed saints have their reason so do the unbelievers; crescent came into being against their will. remorse of failed saints is more regarding the picker of the crescent, Their regret was that crescents picker doesnt belong to their legion, how he could be? He was above it. He was way above them all, and contradiction in saints stance was so very obvious that people who wanted to believe rejected those saints, ironically made them failed, leaving a resent within them. Unbelievers were just plain refusers, why? Because moon lights the darkness of selfish idols, dark essential for their existence.

Ironically creation, existence, rise, fall and then another expected reemergence of Pakistan fits into above explained pretext, people can argue whats the point discussing it over and over again well its not my fault to accept, its the bloody history which just keep repeating itself so its always worthy to ring the bell for a next amendment, did someone say ground realities.? Yes they are horrible, more than 30% of Pakistan was and is still suffering from flood waters, terrorist both foreign and domestic are having time of their life executing plans on as and when basis, Baluchistan is burning, drones flying, civil administration falling apart taking one step forward and two step back against judiciary, supreme court is on a dual against elected government, prime minister forcing his family purification demanding for respect on the name of his great forefather who commanded respect through his character and work, Karachi again spilling blood, media mocking and I am pretending to give a damn of what happening around and having my nice cup of tea at 9:55 AM yes these are ground realities but is that all..? No its not, watching down the roads of history cruel idles of time are witnessing yet another display of supreme pure character from people of Kashmir, yes its supreme, yes its pure, losing your love ones for the sake of freedom for more than sixty years certainly is wholesome.

History of Kashmir and of Kashmir issue since 1947 is too well-known to be narrated here in detail. In short, it is a sad and shameful story of broken promises, dishonored pledges, baseless and misdirected steps on the part of Pakistan; of extreme selfishness and short-sightedness on the part of most Kashmiri leaders and of double standards and apathy towards its duties concerning human rights, on the part of international
community in general and the United Nations in particular. For 40 long years after 1947, Kashmiris tried peacefully to persuade India to honor her pledges of conceding to them their right of self-determination but failed. As such they decided to resort to the only alternative available to them, i.e., armed freedom struggle and started it in 1988 under the banner of Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF).

But now Kashmir is rising again, its a new dawn for them, can anyone suppress them? Ask yourself, suppressors themselves are being suppressed, and echoes of independence can be heard loud and clear Kashmiris bleeding and yet not hearing the faithful pleading from India, instead listening to the wise minds Indian think tanks are still looking to connect these displays of intend from people of Kashmir as unrest of fuss created by Pakistan just add a foot note to what Indian think tanks are up to by revisiting Mr. Manmohan Singh would be a good idea , Prime Minister of India is fond of sharing his classified information with the US President, Mr Singh thinks US president is outdated and away from reality about Pakistan. According to Mr Singh Pakistan is already imploded, and Mr. Obama is few minutes behind history as he doesnt see it now, may be because of the dust clouds thrown up by the collapse in Afghanistan, but once they disperse which is quite evident, soon he will see the scale of calamity To cover up the process of Indian disintegration, Mr. Singh is using the smoke screen through electronic and print media. I remember India was shining a few years ago; last time I checked it was incredible India. Future slogan? Well try to fill in the blank, for the information of Mr. Obama, the future of India is bleak and the world needs to be very careful why? Because there are twenty-two of out of 29 states of India which are asking for independence from the Indian union. There are more than 100 private armies fighting the Indian army for independence. More than 2000 defense personnel including 544 officers have been killed only in Kashmir during the last 10 years. More than 25000 army personnel have been killed by the freedom fighters in other 21 states of India during the last 10 years, world hunger index is declaring Indians as more starved as sub Saharan desert, shining incredibly shining indeed.

Above mentioned facts take care of what Kashmiris will be facing when go toe in toe with Indian, doomed to say the least, defines the level of moral ground on which occupied forces are standing, but when I looked at our side I found failed saints and unbelievers lining up against them, with all due respect to the writer and readers of facts are facts, followers of Maulana Asad Madanis school of thought in Pakistan, they are doing what are they known to do, taking a diffrent stance, dead red caps of Khyber Puktoonkwah shamefully argued over the unanimous resolution of parliament (though just a mere resolution nothing substantial) in support of the current uprising and protest of Kashmiris against the ugly indian regime, what has this action achieved? Nothing, its just further clarifies the fact that which sides these people belong, are they belong to the group which loves the existence of crescent? Do they support its journey no they dont, they just cant, its too much of a privilege to be held upon, chairmEn of Kashmir comite was lip zipped earlier now accepting that ministry of foreign affairs has kept him uninformed about recent developments and official stance of Govt of Pakistan, pity? Yes it is, but for whom? Role of ANP in province which suffer most in recent years not only by so-called war on terror but later also by the most devastating flood world has witnessed in recent times is just not worthy enough to be discuss here, only significant news which came out from these events were the bubbles of ANP government creating obstacles in relief work attempted by the banned organizations, banning them on the account of their own failure, unbelievers failed to deliver, and failed saints? can some buddy tell me what was the role of great (in size) Fazal-ur-Rehmans in all fiasco? And yet each band has its reservation over most national stances over various issues of national interests, Kashmir is one of those, what is the message we are trying to deliver to the freedom fighters who chant for Pakistan and wave the flag higher than most of us ? Kashmiris will going to get what they are looking for, this aint a statement, its more of rational reason more of s a faith, unending, undying part of the fate, because night is darkest just before the dawn, journey is on, distance is getting covered, trekkers never flinched even on an inch, going on and on from wastelands and trouble waters, sailing along, traveling along, all what failed saints and unbelievers can do is watch the journey, oppose it with ill-logical claims and acting upon tweak of the pulled strings, strings from which they are attached dearly, and paid fairly, but journey goes on, taking about journey, dared to observed a journey? One on the dark skies? The Crescents journey? Crescents journey is quite fascinating, when journey completes, it heals & becomes a full moon, sign of intoxicating excellence, goddess of dreamers, shins high over failed saints and unbelievers.
Curing Crescent ? Pro-Pakistan​


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## DEXTOR

huh? another sicko with an other kashmir related article i didnt wasted my time to read this...just wana say..."kitna bhi hye-hula macha lo kuch nahi hone wala" there is only one way to take kashmir back, and that is to attack on j&k and capture it,,,otherwise dont live in wet dreams....And yeah before anyone reply i wana say that "I am waiting for that day more eagerly then you" and yeah your so called ghazwa-e-hind too..! just waiting for that day..!


"kashmir is and kashmir will remain an integral part of india" :- congress cheif sonia gandhi

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## Y2A

DEXTOR said:


> huh? another sicko with an other kashmir related article i didnt wasted my time to read this...just wana say..."kitna bhi hye-hula macha lo kuch nahi hone wala" there is only one way to take kashmir back, and that is to attack on j&k and capture it,,,otherwise dont live in wet dreams....And yeah before anyone reply i wana say that "I am waiting for that day more eagerly then you" and yeah your so called ghazwa-e-hind too..! just waiting for that day..!
> 
> 
> "kashmir is and kashmir will remain an integral part of india" :- congress cheif sonia gandhi


I was expecting a saner reply, yeah hard to come buy when one is surrounded by insane, unbalanced traditional mind set, Kashmir is for people of Kashmir whats lady ghandi said is irrelevant.

its just like when you were failed to pass your fifth grade exams because you came here all blazing, waving saffron flag hoping to get an award of bravery on "word war" congress could feel happy on this but your parents will defiantly get disappointed as they would have ideally want you to focus more on your studies, pass your high school son...leave these issues for educated people to address, its just too much for may be a fifty year old fifht grade student to think about.

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## foxbat

The article is extremely self serving and delusional. The key coordinator of the recent protests (which on the face of it were spontaneous, but in reality were well coordinated) has been identified and nabbed. Havent heard anything significant coming out of J&K since then, except the obvious rants of Hurriyat and "please look at me" attempts from suu kyi wannabe Ms Roy..

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## roach

No damage to India from Arundhati Roy's remarks

No damage to India from Arundhati Roy's remarks - Hindustan Times

How should the government respond to the remarks made by Arundhati Roy about Kashmir and about the behaviour of our armed forces in that state? So far, public opinion has been largely guided by two factors. The first of these is the public view of Roy. Many  if not most  educated Indians have no
time for Roy. In a recent TV discussion, the actor Anupam Kher characterised her as a 'one-book wonder', as a woman who has shot her literary bolt and now keeps herself in the news by making increasingly outrageous anti-Indian statements for the benefit of the foreign media. Her caricature of India as some sort of neo-Nazi state where minorities are routinely persecuted and the poor cheerfully exploited offers foreign journos a useful counterpoint to the 'Indian success story' headlines and gives them a lazy way of adding dissenting notes to the usual India pieces.

Kher may have been overstating his case for the benefit of the TV cameras but his position is, broadly speaking, the view of the educated Indian middle class. Even within the liberal Left, it is getting harder to find support for Roy's views. Some years ago, the historian Ram Guha wrote that the problem with Roy was that she damaged the many good causes she often associated with because of her style and over-statement. At that time, Guha's view was controversial. Now, it is pretty much the conventional wisdom.

So, many of the public responses to Roy's statements have been guided less by the statements themselves and more by the public perception of Roy.

The second factor is the nature of Roy's speeches. Eminent lawyers argue that a case for sedition could easily be made out on the basis of her demands for Kashmiri independence. Certainly, there is much in her comments to offend most Indians: the suggestion that India is an occupying power that imposes its rule on Kashmir through torture, brutality and **** is deliberately provocative.

These two factors have been enough to cause many people  including political parties  to demand her arrest. She should be tried for sedition or treason, they say. Freedom of speech is all very well up to a point. But we all accept that there must be restraints on free speech and treason is one area where free speech can be legitimately curtailed.

Roy's defenders fall back on an argument suggested by Roy herself ("pity the state that jails its writers..."). Artists must not have their freedom curbed. The Indian State has already erred by persecuting MF Husain. The Shiv Sena is running a pointless campaign against Rohinton Mistry. So, why add a Booker Prize winner to the list?

The problem with this defence is that it casts Roy in the role of Alexander Solzhenitsyn smuggling his manuscript past Soviet censors or Nadine Gordimer battling the apartheid regime to get her fiction out.

In fact, the truth is that when she made those statements, Roy was functioning not as an artist but as a political activist. Those political activists who have written novels cannot claim greater freedom than other political activists with no best-selling fiction to their names. Political statements made in a political context must be judged on a political basis. Artistic freedom does not enter into it.

So, to return to the big question, what should the government do?

It is instructive to examine the experience of other liberal societies faced with apparently seditious statements made by photogenic celebrities. During the Vietnam War, the actress Jane Fonda visited North Vietnam, a country with which the US was at war. During her widely-publicised visit, she expressed her support for the struggle of the Vietnamese people, condemned the role of the US and even went on Vietnamese radio to ask US pilots to stop bombing Vietnam.

Or take the case of the British actress, Vanessa Redgrave, who took time off from her generalised condemnations of corporate-dominated, poor-exploiting, British society to campaign against British forces when they were battling the terrorist IRA.

In both cases, there was widespread public outrage accompanied by demands for their arrest and cries of 'treason' and 'sedition'.

And yet, how do you suppose the US and UK responded? Britain was run by a Conservative government and the majority of Conservative party members clearly wanted Redgrave locked up. America was run by Richard Nixon, the champion of the so-called Silent Majority.

But in both cases, the governments were content to let the actresses be. The British view was that Redgrave represented a fringe element and that by locking her up, the government would only give more publicity to those it was fighting. In America, the attorney-general said, "Most of us in the Administration shared the view that the damage was slight and the interest in favour of free speech was very high."

One of the FBI agents asked to examine Fonda's case wrote on her file, "There are more dangerous characters around needing our attention...The basis for investigation appears to be  pick someone you dislike and start investigating."

My feeling is that we would do well to follow the example of England and America. It does not matter how we feel about Roy herself. The principle of freedom of expression is far more important than any individual. It is true that free speech can be curtailed on grounds of sedition. But we should restrict such curtailment of freedom of expression to those times when there is a real threat to the unity and integrity of India.

In this case, I would argue, Roy's statements pose no threat to us at all. Some years ago, she wrote a very long article for The Guardian and Outlook, demanding azaadi for Kashmir. The consequences of that article were hardly damaging or dangerous. India did not collapse. Kashmir did not secede. And the piece itself was quickly forgotten.

There is no reason to believe that these statements will have consequences that are any more serious. In fact, they would have faded from the news in hours had the TV channels not continued fuelling public outrage.

Ultimately, we must be guided by the principle followed by the US in the Jane Fonda case. Is the damage to India so great that it justifies curtailing free speech?

Obviously, it isn't. No violence followed her statements and nor did she incite it. Moreover, there will still be an India with Kashmir as an integral part of it long after Roy herself is forgotten.

So, let's just cool down. We have a perfect right to dislike Roy. We are entirely justified in being angered by her statements. But the moment we compromise on the principles that make us a liberal society especially when her remarks pose no real threat to us at all  we start playing her game.

We become the repressive, authoritarian society she suggests we already are.

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## DEXTOR

Y2A said:


> I was expecting a saner reply, yeah hard to come buy when one is surrounded by insane, unbalanced traditional mind set, Kashmir is for people of Kashmir whats lady ghandi said is irrelevant.
> 
> its just like when you were failed to pass your fifth grade exams because you came here all blazing, waving saffron flag hoping to get an award of bravery on "word war" congress could feel happy on this but your parents will defiantly get disappointed as they would have ideally want you to focus more on your studies, pass your high school son...leave these issues for educated people to address, its just too much for may be a fifty year old fifht grade student to think about.




I know reality is hard to digest son and the reply by me was gone straight into your bones, But thats the reality except it or not. so,dont get frustrated and instead of using your brain in these delusional fake commentry, use it somewhere its worth..!

typing a post on a forum with some intellectual words of english dosen't make it "meaningful" My above post just showed you the glimpse of reality which you ppl don't wana accept.! but beleive it or not thats the reality and remains the reality..! so don't waste your energy in arguing for something which you won't get except one way...!

And yeah it is really didnt worth a penny to answer who is living around insane..! whole world knows that...

And yeah what gandhi said is totally relevent and there is no needs of your opinon and neither it worth..!! 

Better luck next time........


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## unicorn148

one thing is for sure Kashmir is and will remain a Integral part of INDIA 
what pressure it has to face it will face and PAKISTAN can do nothing about it because you dont have any power to face us except to train terrorist and send them into India kill the people ........(you feel you have nukes and India cant do anything but if you nuke India u cant aim the whole India but if we have to counter you the whole Pakistan will be out of the map of the world
(I dont hate Pakistan i always want both our countries to be friendly because we have a common history and we fought together for our independence )

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## gubbi

*Dont pity us, Arundhati*


> Anshul Chaturvedi
> 27 October 2010, 06:37 AM IST
> Insofar as putting thoughts into words go, I guess Im not really qualified to take up an issue with Arundhati Roy; shes a globally acknowledged, indeed, acclaimed writer, while I am no more than an inconsequential rarely-read salaried cog in the gigantic wheels of the print media. Having said that, I am very clear that I dont want my share of the accumulated pity that she thinks the nation collectively merits. So, heres my inadequate submission:
> 
> Arundhati has said that she spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one of the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of their homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I visited on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian poor who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who are now learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police state.
> 
> I disagree with the effortless branding of Kashmir as one of the most brutal military occupations in the world  it is not pleasant, today, I am sure, but from 1948 to say, at least 1988, a period of well over four decades, Kashmir was a part of what we consider India  merged, integrated, acceded, depends on whom you ask  and for those four decades it was not part of India on the strength of a brutal military occupation. *Unlike German soldiers marching into Poland or Chinese troops invading Tibet, India did not have to invade Kashmir and then hold it from Day One by administering martial law or its equivalent. I dont mean to sound cheesy, but for years and years Bollywood didnt churn out those scenes of a beautiful, peaceful, idyllic Kashmir on the strength of shooting crews backed by hundreds of brutal soldiers trying to create a pretence of normal, peaceful life. Thats just how it was. Someone worked to change it. The question is  who?*
> 
> *Punjab, too, faced a decade of insurgency, something which we forget all too easily today. But it wasnt occupied prior to that, it isnt occupied today.* *Kashmir has faced more than a decade of insurgency, agreed, but to portray it as if everyone in Kashmir for all time has been subject to one of the most brutal military occupations does no justice to the intellect which Arundhati obviously possesses * more so in the context of the fact that *the other friendly democratic states that border Kashmir, namely Pakistan and China, have no noticeable tradition of tender loving care extended by their respective militaries to people who question whether they belong to those states. *
> 
> Having lived and worked in J&K for many years, as an editor, I have carried stories about remote hilly villages where terrorists surrounded hamlets of Gujjars and slit the throats of two dozen villagers to indicate the price of cooperation extended to security forces patrolling the hills. When Bill Clinton came to India, we saw the *carnage of 36 Sikhs in Chatttisinghpora  something which Arundhatis comrade in arms, Syed Ali Shah Geeelani, incredibly enough, still reiterates was done by India to defame Kashmiris.* There is no dearth of such instances  I quote only a couple to remind us all *that Kashmirs brutal occupation is not quite as much of an innocent-lambs-being-led-to-slaughter scenario as Ms Roy perhaps sees it as*.
> 
> When Arundhati says that she speaks for justice *for Kashmiri Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of their homeland*, it is *too ridiculous to even merit comment*, given that she wants that justice to come while she shares a dias with Geelani. *They were driven out of their homeland, Arundhati, by the brutal military occupiers of Kashmir, or by someone else? Driven out by whom? Why leave it to delightful ambiguities here? I do not know if Kashmiri Pandits give any weightage to her speaking ostensibly on their behalf. *And the statistical chances of Pandits returning to Kashmir if the brutal military occupation ends tomorrow are slimmer than of Arundhati joining the BJP.
> 
> Arundhati seeks justice, too, *for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I visited on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore.* This *is slick if you are writing a column for a foreign audience, the way Aussie experts wrote on the caste composition of the Indian cricket team during the Bhajji-Symonds spat, but, hello, Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir die in situations different from upper caste soldiers or Sikh soldiers or Muslim soldiers  or local, Kashmiri Muslim policemen?* *Dont insult our intelligence, and the Armys basic DNA, with this line of argument*. You wish to be the defender of the rights of those oppressed in Kashmir, of the Pandits, and of the Dalit soldiers from among the troops who die there day in and day out? Sorry, *this is just not real, its just not genuine, even if it is possibly good homework for global awards coming your way as defender of the rights of all oppressed sections in this part of the world. *
> 
> Arundhatis also looking for justice for the Indian poor who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who are now learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police state, but I have little comment to offer on this because, frankly, it is a little too esoteric for me to understand the point. I understand that India is in selective ways and selective zones a police state of sorts, but how insensitive policing in interior Bihar is attributable to Kashmirs status  and how Azadi will address that  must have a subtle connect which my everyday, non literary mind has singularly failed to grasp. But then, we are all not blessed with equal talents.
> 
> Anyway, this is not one of Ms Roys essays, so I darent type away endlessly. Ill conclude.
> 
> You say, Arundhati, _pity the nation that has to silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation that needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, mass murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who prey on the poorest of the poor, roam free._ *I say, you are jumping the gun*. *Neither have you been silenced at any point for speaking your mind  distasteful as it may be to many when it veers towards applauding anyone willing to kill an Indian soldier, be it a Naxal in Chattisgarh or a terrorist in Kashmir  nor does the nation need to be pitied.* *Yet. Writers and dissidents are silenced, in friendlier and I suppose less brutal societies such as Pakistan, China, Myanmar*, but the very fact that you can issue statements and notes challenging the same to be done here is, perhaps, the strongest negation of those statements. Yes, many murderers, scamsters and rapists still roam free, and no, we aren't proud of that in the least, but no, you havent been jailed for asking for justice. And I dont see that happening. Truth be told, I think you dont see it happening either.
> 
> So while one gives all credit to your intellectual prowess, I dont think this overdose of pity for the nation is quite deserved. It's a lot of hyperbole. As part of the nation, even if just one-billionth, I respectfully wish to return my proportion of pity offered by you, Ms Roy. Please accept it. And while youre at it, pass it on to Mr Geelani; I daresay he needs it more.


Excellent rebuttal!

FYI, Since many respected members here post articles from ToI, I too figured, why not? This one makes more sense than many others'.

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## KS

Any Damage to India - Nah.

Any Damage to Kashmir cause - Yes!! The stances of many undecided have visibly hardened.

All hail the Midas(Suzanne Arundati) with the cursed touch.!!

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## Spring Onion

She has stir all those so-called "educated" indians whom this write up mentioned. To an extent where these so-called educated lot has shows its true colours of education by abusing Arundhati in the worst abusive words.


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## vikramaditya AC

Who cares about that roy desperate for attention..
BUt now,she has shut her mouth,without even getting arrested...haha Lolz


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## Y2A

DEXTOR said:


> I know reality is hard to digest son and the reply by me was gone straight into your bones, But thats the reality except it or not. so,dont get frustrated and instead of using your brain in these delusional fake commentry, use it somewhere its worth..!
> 
> typing a post on a forum with some intellectual words of english dosen't make it "meaningful" My above post just showed you the glimpse of reality which you ppl don't wana accept.! but beleive it or not thats the reality and remains the reality..! so don't waste your energy in arguing for something which you won't get except one way...!
> 
> And yeah it is really didnt worth a penny to answer who is living around insane..! whole world knows that...
> 
> And yeah what gandhi said is totally relevent and there is no needs of your opinon and neither it worth..!!
> 
> Better luck next time........



looks like someone who got cranky earlier now trying to buckle himself up, well i think i was right when i said the fifth grade stuff about you, spellings are hideous, you need to work on those little more harder when next time you try to cover the gap of being cranky into the world of sane, unhooking and unbuckling is quite easy but to fix the jolt of earlier impression takes time, looking at the attempts you are making i seriously doubt that you could ever get any where close to it

now talking of reality..reality is what it is on the ground take some time out and ask for a view about the mater from anyone from Kashmir rather claiming and chanting for integral intuition you guys posses and fed up with, i know its hard on your part of even thinking about further disintegration of india but my dear you can't just fight fate, calm down and take it as unfinished business of partition which needed to be taken care of in order to bring peace in the region, my intention to quote that article was regarding having a discussion about role of few different political mindset inside Pakistan on Kashmir but i was expecting that i will receive such reception from lose cannons from other side of eastern boarder here, i do not need to quote zulfiqar bhutto or even PM Gilani's official stand on the matter in response to your quote of an indo-italian lady who happens to running a state, i would rather leave you with a spark of light created inside your own pool, pointing towards Arundhati Roy's statement on Kashmir on 2010-10-25 in conference in dheli *Kashmir has never been an integral part of India, *


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## xenia

smelling some complexes in the article...a loud "duh" when under the cloak there is visible disturbance..good effort although!!huh


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## majesticpankaj

Jana said:


> She has stir all those so-called "educated" indians whom this write up mentioned. To an extent where these so-called educated lot has shows its true colours of education by abusing Arundhati in the worst abusive words.


yaa...very sad... but you people were similarly scolding david cameron...hai na !!!


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## Y2A

just forgot to mention some thing ..i am really amused by looking at "similar" guys THANKING each other's post on mutual basis...good keep it up


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## xenia

majesticpankaj said:


> yaa...very sad... but you people were similarly scolding david cameron...hai na !!!



bad comparison..cameron is not pakistani.. 
n btw is she ur future PM?


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## grace

Curing Crescent

by *Ahson Malick* on 2010/10/04 ·[/B]

nice try ...HASSAN MALLIK..

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## ashdoc

Yeah ,we will continue to hold kashmir by our military might forever and ever.

Pakistanis can ruin their nation by creating terror camps on their soil ,which in the end explode bombs and create terror more in pakistan itself rather than in india !!

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## DEXTOR

Jana said:


> She has stir all those so-called "educated" indians whom this write up mentioned. To an extent where these so-called educated lot has shows its true colours of education by abusing Arundhati in the worst abusive words.



Better luck next time....


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## majesticpankaj

xenia said:


> bad comparison..cameron is not pakistani..
> n btw is she ur future PM?


ohhhhh.... you mean to say he/she should be pakistani ??? by the way, being a PM he is more credible than arundhati...kya kehte hai aap?

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## Spring Onion

vikramaditya AC said:


> Who cares about that roy z



Check number of Indians on  and your media still filling up space by writing against her  it shows the desperadoes who care


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## Urbanized Greyhound

Jana said:


> She has stir all those so-called "educated" indians whom this write up mentioned. To an extent where these so-called educated lot has shows its true colours of education by abusing Arundhati in the worst abusive words.



Well her remarks are constructed ( and they seem to be deliberately so ) in a way to bring out the patriotism of even educated Indians . Every citizen no matter how self- diciplined , controlled and refined always adhere to certain principles .....loyalty to one's country certainly ranks among one of them ......and when these principles are violated they inevitably speak out. 

Besides ones "education level " certainly comes under the scrutiny when she can credit .....the disparity between the Poor & the rich to be responsible for a dastardly terrorist attack taking the lives of over 2 hundred 

when she can make light of a country's poverty and malnourishment levels on a stage at its Capital....and subsequently claim " pity the *country* which has to ....... " mark you* country* not *government*,

When an educated majority sides against an educated individual , we can be pretty certain it reflects on the education level of the individual ,not the majority.....

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## majesticpankaj

Jana said:


> Check number of Indians on  and your media still filling up space by writing against her  it shows the desperadoes who care


that is suppose to be the job of media.... don't u understand simple things???


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## xenia

majesticpankaj said:


> ohhhhh.... you mean to say he/she should be pakistani ??? by the way, being a PM he is more credible than arundhati...kya kehte hai aap?



no he shouldnt be..so our bashing was for a foreigner n no sedition charges
n wake up man..media is considered much more credible than PMs n politicians in terms of opinion, they dont have to follow the set pattern of so called _national interest_ ..


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## Spring Onion

majesticpankaj said:


> yaa...very sad... but you people were similarly scolding david cameron...hai na !!!



bwahahahahahhahah Arundhati being Indian busting Indian false claims is one thing and Cameron speaking on misplaced WoT is altogether another.


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## DEXTOR

majesticpankaj said:


> that is suppose to be the job of media.... don't u understand simple things???



lol,,whom you trying to tell??

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## Tshering22

gubbi said:


> *Dont pity us, Arundhati*
> 
> Excellent rebuttal!
> 
> FYI, Since many respected members here post articles from ToI, I too figured, why not? This one makes more sense than many others'.


It takes more than just a treacherous, self-ashamed, blood traitor and cheap B**** to weaken India's glory.


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## para-site

This is a good read.....

Vir Sanghvi


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## majesticpankaj

Jana said:


> bwahahahahahhahah Arundhati being Indian busting Indian false claims is one thing and Cameron speaking on misplaced WoT is altogether another.


hahahhahahah...isn't UK is your partner in WOT ??? they may not know about ground realities because they do not present in afganistan and blah blah blah...........


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## para-site

Tshering22 said:


> It takes more than just a treacherous, self-ashamed, blood traitor and cheap B**** to weaken India's glory.



You kidding me India is as glorious as ever........and yeah Arundhti still has her freedom of speech....

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## Von Hölle

Jana said:


> She has stir all those so-called "educated" indians whom this write up mentioned. To an extent where these so-called educated lot *has shows its true colours *of education by abusing Arundhati in the worst abusive words.



Exposed our true colors!! *but to whom ??*...surely not Pakistan..and right now everybody else is color blind..such that they can only see green!!

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## Urbanized Greyhound

xenia said:


> no he shouldnt be..so our bashing was for a foreigner n no sedition charges
> n wake up man..*media is considered much more credible than PMs n politicians in terms of opinion*, they dont have to follow the set pattern of so called _national interest_ ..



Arundhuti Roy's opinion lost its credibility ages ago.....the recent case when she was lambasted for her comments after Mumbai by personalities like Rushdie and other prominent British and American journalists is proof.

and secondly her opinion does not represent media opinion.....rather she tries to obtain publicity through her controversial statements ,using the media.


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## scrumpy

I don't think Arundathi Roy is evil. Just misguided. 

I agree with those 2 articles, she is making a taking a very one sided view by claiming that the Indian state is evil who enjoys trampelling on the rights of the unprivileged.. For those who know India know this is complete crap. There is high amounts of corruption which is present in India disproportionately affects the under privileged. The earlier we can get rid of this corruption, the faster we can shut people like her.

On the other hand, I also support her rights to voice her opinions. A mature democracy should aim to accommodate dissenting opinions instead of prosecuting them. People calling for her prosecution are doing a disservice to our country and our tradition of tolerance.


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## DEXTOR

Y2A said:


> looks like someone who got cranky earlier now trying to buckle himself up, well i think i was right when i said the fifth grade stuff about you, spellings are hideous, you need to work on those little more harder when next time you try to cover the gap of being cranky into the world of sane, unhooking and unbuckling is quite easy but to fix the jolt of earlier impression takes time, looking at the attempts you are making i seriously doubt that you could ever get any where close to it
> 
> now talking of reality..reality is what it is on the ground take some time out and ask for a view about the mater from anyone from Kashmir rather claiming and chanting for integral intuition you guys posses and fed up with, i know its hard on your part of even thinking about further disintegration of india but my dear you can't just fight fate, calm down and take it as unfinished business of partition which needed to be taken care of in order to bring peace in the region, my intention to quote that article was regarding having a discussion about role of few different political mindset inside Pakistan on Kashmir but i was expecting that i will receive such reception from lose cannons from other side of eastern boarder here, i do not need to quote zulfiqar bhutto or even PM Gilani's official stand on the matter in response to your quote of an indo-italian lady who happens to running a state, i would rather leave you with a spark of light created inside your own pool, pointing towards Arundhati Roy's statement on Kashmir on 2010-10-25 in conference in dheli *Kashmir has &#8220;never been an integral part of India&#8221;, *



lol, i just wana say that" enjoy arguing with ppl here from india or from anywhere else,,ENJOY THESE POSTS WITH TEA DUDE..."

*but if you talk about reality i just wana say one line

"IF YOU WANT SOME ,COME AND GET SOME"*

enjoy ,and have a great time arguing with ppl on this thread........

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## DEXTOR

Y2A said:


> just forgot to mention some thing ..i am really amused by looking at "similar" guys THANKING each other's post on mutual basis...good keep it up



keep amusing.....

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## Tshering22

Tsk tsk... the same old theme, same old articles and same old desperation for more land when one's own is not being taken care of. Boringggg!


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## Y2A

DEXTOR said:


> lol, i just wana say that" enjoy arguing with ppl here from india or from anywhere else,,ENJOY THESE POSTS WITH TEA DUDE..."
> 
> *but if you talk about reality i just wana say one line
> 
> "IF YOU WANT SOME ,COME AND GET SOME"*
> 
> enjoy ,and have a great time arguing with ppl on this thread........



Result of too much bad TV, bollywood, hollywood and now world wrestling entertainment, you didn't get it right either, its entairment on TV son, doesn't happen in real world, now don't quote rujni kant and make an attempt get satisfied.


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## StingRoy

^^ Good going Karthik... I have seen many Pakistani members abuse and attack hinduism ... Hope the admins/mods can try to control this.


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## American Pakistani

Please Pakistani posters do not abuse any ones respected religion, it is strictly forbidden in Islam to abuse any ones religion.

As for Indian occupied Kashmir, it is not & will never be integral part of India, it is disputed territory & issue pending to be resolved. Hope India will give right of self determination to Kashmiris & stop Indian occupied forces brutal activities in Kashmir.

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## Subramanian

guys

decide for yourself,if you think the islamic identity is the strongest,then take all the 13.4&#37; of indian muslims into pakistan.this time we ll transport them without any harm,be happy and take kashmir also.why have this whole secular wecular bullshit drama.


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## divya

Subramanian said:


> guys
> 
> decide for yourself,if you think the islamic identity is the strongest,then take all the 13.4% of indian muslims into pakistan.this time we ll transport them without any harm,be happy and take kashmir also.why have this whole secular wecular bullshit drama.



the ummah brotherhood comes into picture only when one has to find fault with others as otherwise when it comes at taking responsibilities muslims in india become non muslims and not creditable enough even for representation in OIC.

As far as your statement is concerned Indian muslims are our own blood brothers and what you are asking is that we part from our own brothers just for the sake of some third party. sorry completly disagree with u.

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## LaBong

Subramanian said:


> guys
> 
> decide for yourself,if you think the islamic identity is the strongest,then take all the 13.4% of indian muslims into pakistan.this time we ll transport them without any harm,be happy and take kashmir also.why have this whole secular wecular bullshit drama.


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## Y2A

motive behind instigating this thread was to disscuss role of ANP and JUI(f) in context of Kashmiri freedom movemnt, but usual trolling from some indian memebers distracted and made this thread an usual all time india vs Pak thread where i saw few member nuking Pakistan in their fantacies and sleept peacefully afterwards


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## notsuperstitious

divya said:


> the ummah brotherhood comes into picture only when one has to find fault with others as otherwise when it comes at taking responsibilities muslims in india become non muslims and not creditable enough even for representation in OIC.
> 
> As far as your statement is concerned Indian muslims are our own blood brothers and what you are asking is that we part from our own brothers just for the sake of some third party. sorry completly disagree with u.



Absolutely, Indian muslims are really muslim indians, just like we have hindu indians, sikh indians, short indians, tall indians etc. Who are we to question our equals? We are only falling for the trap laid out by our enemies if we do.

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## Y2A

INDIA'S WAR ON PEOPLE - Gautam Navlakha & Arundhati Roy, Mumbai, June 2, 2010 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igC9XEU4H6I


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## GUNNER

*When Kashmiris, Nagas, Maoists and others sought justice*

*By Jawed Naqvi* 

The creation of Pakistan from the Indian subcontinent was not inevitable. It happened despite several attempts to avert its formation, including efforts by the Muslim League. Former Indian foreign minister Jaswant Singh has given a compelling account in his book of the Congress partys arrogance and culpability in forcing Jinnah to say enough is enough.

By the same token, the independence of Bangladesh from Pakistan was not a pre-determined fact.

Islamabads grievous mishandling of the situation led to a truncated Pakistan. The same argument could apply to Kashmir. It is of course not surprising that the Indian middle class, led by its Murdochian TV channels, advocates military force to tame Kashmirs anti-India upsurge in the way Gen Yahya Khan unleashed military terror in East Pakistan. However, somewhat hypocritically while it celebrates Indias military intervention, which led to the creation of Bangladesh, when it comes to Kashmir the Indian middle class takes the opposite view.

As with Pakistan and later with Bangladesh, there was, and perhaps still is, nothing imminent about Kashmirs Azadi from India. But everything has been mishandled for years (and is being made worse on a daily basis) by New Delhi. And that has paved the way for people to believe that Azadi is the only option which gives them justice and dignity. 

In the early days of Kashmirs alienation from New Delhi, Nehru had asked leftist film scribe Khwaja Ahmed Abbas to intervene on his behalf with Sheikh Abdullah. Nehru died before there could be progress. Now Manmohan Singh has assembled a group of interlocutors. One of them has already come up with the most original non-starter  suggesting the Indian constitution be changed to accommodate the Kashmiris sentiments. Now you dont need a constitutional change to withdraw troops from Kashmir, or to free its political prisoners, or to hold serious talks with Pakistan, or to punish the rapists and torturers who are claiming to be the defenders of the Indian state, or to hold a referendum to ascertain the peoples will in Kashmir.

You need an administrative order and a will to carry out the mandate of democracy.

Thats all.

The government sensed trouble when a group of representatives of seriously disaffected people came together on a platform at a recent seminar about Kashmir in Delhi called Azadithe only way. The furore over sedition charges against Arundhati Roy and Syed Ali Shah Geelani who also addressed the seminar was a complete red herring, a compulsory digression for the Indian state and its rightwing props because neither Roy nor Geelani said anything they hadnt said for years. The furore was a deliberate decoy to head off the debate on Hindu terror after Indresh Kumar, a senior member of the RSS, was named in a CBI charge-sheet for a bomb blast in the Ajmer Sharif dargah in which many were killed.

However, in chasing a completely false lead about sedition and so forth, the state and the media may have missed out on the significance of an historic meeting of disparate ideological and political groups. Nagas, Manipuris, Sikh separatists, Maoists and human rights activists, among others, were discussing their separate injustices at the hands of the Indian state in the context of the brutalisation of Kashmir. Even as they had assembled at the Little Theatre Group under the ruse of speaking for Kashmir, Indias intelligence agencies could not have been entirely unaware of the momentous nature of the event. Ironically, the Maoists and the Kashmiri separatists who had come together for the first time on a platform in Delhi had once shared a common history.

For example, the Maoists are but an evolved offshoot of the Telangana struggle against the Nizam of Hyderabad, in which communist cadres had participated in his armed overthrow. The Kashmiris are the inheritors of an anti-feudal struggle against Hari Singh, the former ruler of Jammu and Kashmir, that was led by Sheikh Abdullah.

It was in 1941 that Abdullahs Jammu and Kashmir National Conference joined All India States Peoples Conference, the arm of the Congress Party that was working for democracy in the princely states and was pitted against the Rajas who were technically outside the realm of British empire. When the Sheikh joined the Quit India movement in 1942, he was welcomed and applauded. But when he launched a Quit Kashmir campaign against Hari Singh in 1946, he was surprised by the aloofness from many in the Congress. It does not seem to bother our contemporary democrats that Kashmirs Accession certificate was signed by a discredited monarch who did not have the trust of his people.

Anyway, at the recent Azadi meeting one set of comrades whose history goes back to the Telengana peoples struggle against a feudal ruler came out in in support of another set of comrades whose independence had been subverted by the newly formed Indian state. 

In Hyderabad the Indian government had encouraged a peoples movement to overthrow the Nizam, in Kashmir it subverted the people to sign a controversial Instrument of Accession with its feudal ruler. Even Lord Mountabatten made mention of the need to get the peoples approval on Hari Singhs transactions with New Delhi, but all that is now forgotten history.

Let me end here, by quoting the views of two important speakers at the Azadi meeting, which were largely ignored by the media and the state in their hunt for Arundhati Roy. 

Varavara Rao, a self-confessed Maoist and poet, said in an interview after the event that the Maoists were firmly behind the Kashmiri peoples struggle for the right to self-determination and justice.

A Naga separatist, who spoke at the meeting, also gave reasons about why his movement stood in solidarity with the Kashmiris.

Varavara Rao to Tehelka magazine: I feel Azadi is the only way for Kashmir. Self-determination is the right of every nationality. Being a Maoist, I support revolutionary and independent movements of people. On that Marxist-Leninist principle, I support the nationality struggle of Kashmir and of the Northeast. I come from the Hyderabad riyasat. Both Hyderabad and Kashmir were invaded by India. Even the Indian Union uses the word accession in both cases. They annexed Hyderabad on the pretext that the rulers are Muslims and the ruled are Hindus. In Kashmir, they said the king is Hindu. In both places, they played the Hindu card.

The general secretary of the Naga Peoples Movement for Human Rights, N. Venuh, is an advocate of independent Nagaland. In his speech during the convention on Kashmir, he espoused the cause of Azad Kashmir, drawing parallels between the two states.

We are not part of India, so we cannot be called secessionists. The government has to give us our rights. We can be friends with the Indian State, but cannot be part of the Indian Union. On similarities between the Naga struggle and Kashmiris, he said: Yes. History tells us that Kashmir is a disputed territory. This is why the UN office is still there in Srinagar.

The Kashmiris should have the right to self-determination. They should be allowed to decide whether they want to be with India or go their own way. This is true for Nagas. We never wanted to be a part of India.

As I said, the recent meeting on Kashmir was a landmark event. Call it secessionist or a call for sedition, or whatever. Arundhati Roy and Syed Ali Shah Geelani were not the main story. This is what the Indian media and the Indian state would do well to understand and, if possible, accept.



 When Kashmiris, Nagas, Maoists and others sought justice Opinion columns, editorials, Dawn 50 years ago today, blogs, letters to the editor and other voices

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## roach

All these secessionist movements have one thing in common-a record of poor governance and lack of opportunity for the youth. My hometown is Jammu, and I know how corrupt and inefficient the civil administration is there.

If people are given the opportunity to prosper and grow, nobody cares about 'azaadi'. We need bring development to these areas, fast. The military way of doing it won't solve the problem.


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## Spring Onion

So a Naga leader says Naga people are not part of India as well.


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## Infinity

Jana said:


> So a Naga leader says Naga people are not part of India as well.



SO Says Baloch Leaders..............

Whats your point Jana?????????

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## divya

Jana said:


> So a Naga leader says Naga people are not part of India as well.



Oh well we have our own share of balochs and talibs. Dont worry about them we can take care of our house.

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## KS

Jana said:


> So a Naga leader says Naga people are not part of India as well.



*Try saying that to these brave-hearts* 








*Naga Regiment*

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## Spring Onion

Infinity said:


> SO Says Baloch Leaders..............
> 
> *Whats your point Jana?*????????



My point was why he is saying so? Has he any reasons or points to back his statement ?


In case of Kashmir we can understand that Kashmir was Never part of India neither Kashmiris consider themselves Indians. 


But in case of Nagas??? what is their history ?


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## divya

Jana said:


> My point was why he is saying so? Has he any reasons or points to back his statement ?
> 
> 
> In case of Kashmir we can understand that Kashmir was Never part of India neither Kashmiris consider themselves Indians.
> 
> 
> But in case of Nagas??? what is their history ?



Devlopment
Then gov wanted some parts to be merged with assam
Growth

But things are changing with we having money in our belly and now you will hardly hear frm them apart from isolated cases.


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## LaBong

divya said:


> Devlopment
> Then gov wanted some parts to be merged with assam
> Growth
> 
> But things are changing with we having money in our belly and now you will hardly hear frm them apart from isolated cases.



Development is not the only issue, we mainlanders are almost always tend to ignore north-east. Tell me how many times do you see north-east to come up in news paper? They have a valid reason to feel alienated!

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## Infinity

India was never a country before it was invaded by British.
India was a princely states of more than 500 kingdoms.
But we are a Country today from Kashmir to Kanyakumari.
From Kashmiri to Malayali we are one 

That Incredible India


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## IND151

*The early history of Nagaland is the story of the customs and economic activities of the Naga tribes. The people were originally referred to as Naka in Burmese languages, which means 'people with pierced ears'[citation needed]. The Naga tribes had socio-economic and political links with tribes in Assam and Burma (Myanmar); even today a large population of Naga inhabits Assam. Following an invasion in 1816, the area, along with Assam, came under direct rule of Burma. This period was noted for oppressive rule and turmoil in Assam and Nagaland. When the British East India Company took control of Assam in 1826, the Britain steadily expanded its domain over modern Nagaland. By 1892, all of modern Nagaland except the Tuensang area in the northeast was governed by the British. It was politically amalgamated into Assam. Missionaries played an important part in converting Nagaland's Naga tribes to Christianity.

Not much is known about the history before the Burmese invasion or before the Naga people were converted to Christianity.

[edit]Road to statehood
During World War I, the British recruited several hundred Nagas and sent them to France to work as aides at the front. While in Europe, the Naga, who had always been fractured by tribal differences, began to think that they should work towards becoming unified in order to protect their common interests. On their return to their homeland in 1918, they organized, and thus began the Naga nationalist movement.[1]

After the independence of India in 1947, the area remained a part of the province of Assam. Nationalist activities arose amongst a section of the Nagas, whose Naga National Council demanded a political union of their ancestral and native groups, damaged government and civil infrastructure and attacked government officials and civilians from other states of India. The Union government sent the Indian Army in 1955, to restore order. In 1957, the Government began diplomatic talks with representatives of Naga tribes, and the Naga Hills district of Assam and the Tuensang frontier were united in a single political entity that became a Union territory, directly administered by the Central government with a large degree of autonomy. This was not satisfactory to the tribes, however, and soon agitation and violence increased across the state&#8212;included attacks on Army and government institutions, as well as civil disobedience and non-payment of taxes. In July 1960, a further political accord was reached at the Naga People's Convention to wit: that Nagaland should become a constituent and self-governing state in the Indian union. Statehood was officially granted in 1963.*


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## divya

Infinity said:


> India was never a country before it was invaded by British.
> India was a princely states of more than 500 kingdoms.
> But we are a Country today from Kashmir to Kanyakumari.
> From Kashmiri to Malayali we are one
> 
> That Incredible India



Yes it was hindustan before that, it was Bharat before hindustan, and aryavrata before that.


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## justanobserver

Infinity said:


> India was never a country before it was invaded by British.



That's just propaganda to justify the British Raj, sadly you fell for it


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## IND151

*A kaleidoscope of colours and customs. A past made up of legend and stories of heroic warriors and each has their own language and unique traditions. Till five years ago Nagaland was very much off the beaten track for most tourists, but thanks to the development of tribal tourism this beautiful country is now accessible to India and the world, and it shows!

Model lives


Tuophema Tourist Village
One of the best places to stay in Nagaland would have to be Tuophema Village--a tourist village developed and maintained by the community. Here you are housed in cabins built in the traditional Naga style with modern amenities.

About 67 km from Kohima, Benreu is home to the Zemi Nagas and lies in the shadow of Nagaland's third highest peak, Mount Pauna. The Mount Pauna Tourist Village gives visitors a glimpse of this relatively undiscovered paradise. The eight cottages lie just beyond Benreu's community playground where three ornate totems stand for the three Zemi khels (or clans). Apart from interactions with the tribe, the cottages offer stunning views of the high, cloud-covered hills and the plains of Assam below.


Scenic vistas surround you in Nagaland
Aizuto, in the Zunheboto region of Nagaland, is a village blessed with beautiful surroundings, a peaceful environment and the added bonus of a Christian Mission Centre where one can embrace tranquillity. The Government of Nagaland opened the Tourist Destination Centre to promote the village as a wellness centre, apart from showcasing the tribal culture of the region. It's located in the grounds of the Aizuto Mission Centre, near the Anderson Theological College, and has five cottages and a heritage building with an annexe. Each cottage has two twin bedded suites, while the heritage building has four rooms for couples, with two VIP rooms in the annexe.

Tradition goes international


Modern Naga girls posing for the camera at Benreu
Nagaland is rich in its own festivals, but the latest, the Hornbill Festival, has grown really big in the last few years--the 2009 edition went international with troupes from Japan, Korea, Thailand and Myanmar. Held at the Kisama Tourist Centre, 12 km from Kohima, this festival sets Nagaland swaying to its rhythm between December 1 and 8 every year. It takes its name from the hornbill feathers that Naga warriors sport in their headdresses. Small stalls are set up at which you can buy exquisite local weaves, tribal jewellery and taste the cuisine of a very esoteric people. Each of the 16 Naga tribes has their own, so this is the ideal place to experience the culture of the region without having to go very far into the heartland.


At the Hornbill Festival you can see how music's reaching new heights in the State in the shape of fusion bands like Abiogenesis, which have evolved a form of world music called 'Howey', where Naga rhythms combine with traditional rock. Abiogenesis's beat has reached beyond the State's borders to Thailand and been listed in the 51st Grammies.

And there are new tourist experiences to be enjoyed that combine the festival with glimpses of tribal life in the interior, including an overnight stay at Tuophema's tourist resort with songs and dances around a bonfire.
*

---------- Post added at 03:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:27 PM ----------

Redirect Notice


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## december

Subramanian said:


> guys
> 
> decide for yourself,if you think the islamic identity is the strongest,then take all the 13.4% of indian muslims into pakistan.this time we ll transport them without any harm,be happy and take kashmir also.why have this whole secular wecular bullshit drama.



Subramanian,

You are not asked to speak for the indian muslims.We know what is 
best for us.If you think you cannot agree to indias secular idea it is you who should go out from india.
I as indian muslim is happy tollive in india,and is proud tobe an indian.
My only problem is only some indians(both in hindus & muslims) who cannot tolerate others

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## Tshering22

GUNNER said:


> *When Kashmiris, Nagas, Maoists and others sought justice*
> 
> *By Jawed Naqvi*
> 
> The creation of Pakistan from the Indian subcontinent was not inevitable. It happened despite several attempts to avert its formation, including efforts by the Muslim League. Former Indian foreign minister Jaswant Singh has given a compelling account in his book of the Congress partys arrogance and culpability in forcing Jinnah to say enough is enough.
> 
> By the same token, the independence of Bangladesh from Pakistan was not a pre-determined fact.
> 
> Islamabads grievous mishandling of the situation led to a truncated Pakistan. The same argument could apply to Kashmir. It is of course not surprising that the Indian middle class, led by its Murdochian TV channels, advocates military force to tame Kashmirs anti-India upsurge in the way Gen Yahya Khan unleashed military terror in East Pakistan. However, somewhat hypocritically while it celebrates Indias military intervention, which led to the creation of Bangladesh, when it comes to Kashmir the Indian middle class takes the opposite view.
> 
> As with Pakistan and later with Bangladesh, there was, and perhaps still is, nothing imminent about Kashmirs Azadi from India. But everything has been mishandled for years (and is being made worse on a daily basis) by New Delhi. And that has paved the way for people to believe that Azadi is the only option which gives them justice and dignity.
> 
> In the early days of Kashmirs alienation from New Delhi, Nehru had asked leftist film scribe Khwaja Ahmed Abbas to intervene on his behalf with Sheikh Abdullah. Nehru died before there could be progress. Now Manmohan Singh has assembled a group of interlocutors. One of them has already come up with the most original non-starter  suggesting the Indian constitution be changed to accommodate the Kashmiris sentiments. Now you dont need a constitutional change to withdraw troops from Kashmir, or to free its political prisoners, or to hold serious talks with Pakistan, or to punish the rapists and torturers who are claiming to be the defenders of the Indian state, or to hold a referendum to ascertain the peoples will in Kashmir.
> 
> You need an administrative order and a will to carry out the mandate of democracy.
> 
> Thats all.
> 
> The government sensed trouble when a group of representatives of seriously disaffected people came together on a platform at a recent seminar about Kashmir in Delhi called Azadithe only way. The furore over sedition charges against Arundhati Roy and Syed Ali Shah Geelani who also addressed the seminar was a complete red herring, a compulsory digression for the Indian state and its rightwing props because neither Roy nor Geelani said anything they hadnt said for years. The furore was a deliberate decoy to head off the debate on Hindu terror after Indresh Kumar, a senior member of the RSS, was named in a CBI charge-sheet for a bomb blast in the Ajmer Sharif dargah in which many were killed.
> 
> However, in chasing a completely false lead about sedition and so forth, the state and the media may have missed out on the significance of an historic meeting of disparate ideological and political groups. Nagas, Manipuris, Sikh separatists, Maoists and human rights activists, among others, were discussing their separate injustices at the hands of the Indian state in the context of the brutalisation of Kashmir. Even as they had assembled at the Little Theatre Group under the ruse of speaking for Kashmir, Indias intelligence agencies could not have been entirely unaware of the momentous nature of the event. Ironically, the Maoists and the Kashmiri separatists who had come together for the first time on a platform in Delhi had once shared a common history.
> 
> For example, the Maoists are but an evolved offshoot of the Telangana struggle against the Nizam of Hyderabad, in which communist cadres had participated in his armed overthrow. The Kashmiris are the inheritors of an anti-feudal struggle against Hari Singh, the former ruler of Jammu and Kashmir, that was led by Sheikh Abdullah.
> 
> It was in 1941 that Abdullahs Jammu and Kashmir National Conference joined All India States Peoples Conference, the arm of the Congress Party that was working for democracy in the princely states and was pitted against the Rajas who were technically outside the realm of British empire. When the Sheikh joined the Quit India movement in 1942, he was welcomed and applauded. But when he launched a Quit Kashmir campaign against Hari Singh in 1946, he was surprised by the aloofness from many in the Congress. It does not seem to bother our contemporary democrats that Kashmirs Accession certificate was signed by a discredited monarch who did not have the trust of his people.
> 
> Anyway, at the recent Azadi meeting one set of comrades whose history goes back to the Telengana peoples struggle against a feudal ruler came out in in support of another set of comrades whose independence had been subverted by the newly formed Indian state.
> 
> In Hyderabad the Indian government had encouraged a peoples movement to overthrow the Nizam, in Kashmir it subverted the people to sign a controversial Instrument of Accession with its feudal ruler. Even Lord Mountabatten made mention of the need to get the peoples approval on Hari Singhs transactions with New Delhi, but all that is now forgotten history.
> 
> Let me end here, by quoting the views of two important speakers at the Azadi meeting, which were largely ignored by the media and the state in their hunt for Arundhati Roy.
> 
> Varavara Rao, a self-confessed Maoist and poet, said in an interview after the event that the Maoists were firmly behind the Kashmiri peoples struggle for the right to self-determination and justice.
> 
> A Naga separatist, who spoke at the meeting, also gave reasons about why his movement stood in solidarity with the Kashmiris.
> 
> Varavara Rao to Tehelka magazine: I feel Azadi is the only way for Kashmir. Self-determination is the right of every nationality. Being a Maoist, I support revolutionary and independent movements of people. On that Marxist-Leninist principle, I support the nationality struggle of Kashmir and of the Northeast. I come from the Hyderabad riyasat. Both Hyderabad and Kashmir were invaded by India. Even the Indian Union uses the word accession in both cases. They annexed Hyderabad on the pretext that the rulers are Muslims and the ruled are Hindus. In Kashmir, they said the king is Hindu. In both places, they played the Hindu card.
> 
> The general secretary of the Naga Peoples Movement for Human Rights, N. Venuh, is an advocate of independent Nagaland. In his speech during the convention on Kashmir, he espoused the cause of Azad Kashmir, drawing parallels between the two states.
> 
> We are not part of India, so we cannot be called secessionists. The government has to give us our rights. We can be friends with the Indian State, but cannot be part of the Indian Union. On similarities between the Naga struggle and Kashmiris, he said: Yes. History tells us that Kashmir is a disputed territory. This is why the UN office is still there in Srinagar.
> 
> The Kashmiris should have the right to self-determination. They should be allowed to decide whether they want to be with India or go their own way. This is true for Nagas. We never wanted to be a part of India.
> 
> As I said, the recent meeting on Kashmir was a landmark event. Call it secessionist or a call for sedition, or whatever. Arundhati Roy and Syed Ali Shah Geelani were not the main story. This is what the Indian media and the Indian state would do well to understand and, if possible, accept.
> 
> 
> 
> When Kashmiris, Nagas, Maoists and others sought justice Opinion columns, editorials, Dawn 50 years ago today, blogs, letters to the editor and other voices


First you claim that we shouldn't play religion card then all of a sudden you barge in with "MUSLIMS being ruled by kafirs". Then how come it is not a religion issue? Sub-continent's woes are simply a cause of religious war between two religions. Secular and Liberal members might be willing to disagree with me but this is the core.

Nagas have one of the most decorated regiments in the Indian Army and the militancy there is for Socialist government rule with Christian fundamentalist principles mixed in terrorist groups like Isaak Muivah that even common Nagas hate. I am from northeast and I know the situation here well. Most of these terrorist groups use drug trafficking and illegal arms supply to criminal gangs and underworld dons in the region as source of income for "independence"  near Indo-Burmese borders and FYI many units have been taken out in last 2 years joint operations by Indian and Burmese armies. Details are not out so can't tell or show link more than what has been published.

"asking-for-independence-"so-called Kashmiris have no right for claiming human rights after what they did to other non-Muslim as well as proud Muslim Indian Kashmiris (who fled the valley and came to other parts of the country) to demographically make it look as if it was a part of Pakistan so we don't accept the demands of a few lakh losers as compared to the full Kashmir population who're with India. 76&#37; voting turnover last year was more than enough to prove this.

And I don't get whether it is general thick-headedness here or blind hatred against us Indians that doesn't make people on PDF understand one thing that's been repeated more than 3 dozen times; Maoists don't want any "independence". They want to rule India on Communist principles. That means if (Goodness forbid) they come to power, these "Kashmiris, Nagas and others" who're "asking for independence" will be crushed with inhuman brutality in a communist government where even common citizens cannot raise their voice forget separatists. 

Not to mention everything associated to religion (including Islamic sentiments for those who don't get the idea of general Communist terror threat) will be flattened. Maoists still believe in command economy-national structure as compared to the ones that Chinese follow which is single-party-capitalism. Don't confuse the two concepts. 

Our stand remains clear for separatists in Kashmir: you're free to go to Pakistan anytime you want; but the land stays with us. 

So stop thinking that just because they're anti-democratic, they're anti-Indian. If you feel sorry for Maoist cause then here this: There are lot of poor and low middle class people who work hard, earn 3 meals a day, live in small houses and came up in this same democratic India.

Our ex-president Dr. APJ Kalam was a slum-dweller who didn't have decent meals in his childhood and see what position he rose to and became through same hardwork and dedication. The owner of Reliance Industries, Dhirubhai Ambani worked as a petrol pump boy as a young guy; today where is his empire? It is India's mightiest financial empire and a pillar to our growing power. There are thousands of such examples in this same "unfair, capitalist" India, where the poor and decrypt those who've not even had 2 meals properly have become the most influential and powerful people in the country.

Why then can't Maoists do the same? If he can do this, why can't these bloody Maoist hypocrites do so? Because they're bloody lazy and blame their miseries on others. Maoists are not exception to be given everything in gold platter and if they want to take to guns, we'd destroy these terrorists with full fury. They will get their punishment for creating terror and soon their apologists would also be tried and punished.

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## karan.1970

Hafizzz said:


> Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris (muslims).



I am forever thankful for people like you. Till the time you guys are around, J&K will always stay with India. Thank you so much for giving the whole issue of Kashmir the color of Religious fanatism so abhored by the world today.. May your type and their mentality survive till eternity.

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## KS

karan.1970 said:


> I am forever thankful for people like you. Till the time you guys are around, J&K will always stay with India. Thank you so much for giving the whole issue of Kashmir the color of Religious fanatism so abhored by the world today.. May your type and their mentality survive till eternity.



Exactly..these guys with these type of rhetoric are doing a wonderful job of hardening the position of common Indians and the beautiful part is they dont know that they are doing it.

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## Tshering22

9870 said:


> Muslims should move back to Saudi Arabia


That was an "ouch!" reply dude.. .


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## Tshering22

somebozo said:


> Same tactic which was used in Bangladesh as "bengali nationalism" and in sikkim!


What rubbish are you talking about? What was tried in Sikkim? You might want to repeat that. *Sikkim joined India willingly*. It is hard for you to accept this since military dictatorship in your country most of the time meant you're used to using force. This was because culturally and religiously, we're Indians and this is not the first time when Sikkim has joined India. 

We were a serving kingdom to the Mauryan empire as well and prior to that. Get your history about us Sikkimese right before reading it off your master's mouthpiece; the People's Daily.


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## mr42O

9870 said:


> Muslims should move back to Saudi Arabia



HAHA and where gona hindu will move if a some thing happens ? Any other hindu country in mind ? lol


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## kingdurgaking

Subramanian said:


> guys
> 
> decide for yourself,if you think the islamic identity is the strongest,then take all the 13.4% of indian muslims into pakistan.this time we ll transport them without any harm,be happy and take kashmir also.why have this whole secular wecular bullshit drama.



No way man.. I have lots of muslim friends.... what the crap are you talking.. Because of a rant by one guy why do you take all of them for the toss??.. After all they our people why will you make them struggle further by sending them to Pakistan at present there is no opportunity for them there?

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## Gentle Typhoon

Subramanian said:


> decide for yourself,if you think the islamic identity is the strongest,then take all the 13.4&#37; of indian muslims into pakistan.this time we ll transport them without any harm,be happy and take kashmir also.why have this whole secular wecular bullshit drama.



Nice idea, Sikhs too have the right of their separate homeland, Take Khalistan, no Indo-Pak border will exist. Transport all Christians to Mini Orissa. _Na Rahega Baas, Na Bajegi Baansuri_ 







All pro-Hindu individuals and organizations should join hands to transform India into a *Hindu Republic of Bharat*.


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## naumananjum

then why always muslims are killed by Indian forces in IOK???


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## KS

Gentle Typhoon said:


> Nice idea, Sikhs too have the right of their separate homeland, Take Khalistan, no Indo-Pak border will exist. Transport all Christians to Mini Orissa. _Na Rahega Baas, Na Bajegi Baansuri_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All pro-Hindu individuals and organizations should join hands to transform India into a *Hindu Republic of Bharat*.



lol...you want Gujarat and Rajasthan also.?? this is unfair.


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## Gentle Typhoon

Karthic Sri said:


> lol...you want Gujarat and Rajasthan also.?? this is unfair.



Only Pak border districts, no sea-boundary is unfair


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## Bharat Muslim

Gentle Typhoon said:


> Only Pak border districts, no sea-boundary is unfair



Change your Avataar. It's disgusting. It would have been okay if the woman was beautiful but this..


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## KS

Gentle Typhoon said:


> Only Pak border districts, no sea-boundary is unfair



hahaha.....well as you wish.

But since you have got Haryana,Punjab what happens to the wresting team and Hockey teams ?? 



Bharat Muslim said:


> Change your Avataar. It's disgusting. It would have been okay if the woman was beautiful but this..



You better change your avatar and Flags.

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## Peacefulll

Hafizzz said:


> Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris (muslims).



You bigot, why should it belong to Muslims? Kashmiri Pandits, other Hindus, Buddhists and Sikhs have been living there for centuries,many of them even before the Kashmiri Muslims came to the picture, nay, even before Islam came into existence.

And now the Kashmiri Muslims kill, ra-pe, loot and drive out Kashmiri Pandits from their homeland and on top of that we hear religious bigots like you make statements like this?!

I can imagine what will be the fate of the Buddhists, Hindus and Sikhs if India gives away Kashmir to the bunch of religious fanatics. This just reinforces my belief that India should *never* let go of Kashmir.

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## Fasih Khan

*Musharraf's K formula the second best: Research*

*IMTIYAZ Ahmad*

Srinagar, Oct 31: After the elusive plebiscite under the auspices of the United Nations, former Pakistan president General Pervez Musharraf&#8217;s four-point formula is the second best option available for the resolution of the complex Kashmir issue, according to a research conducted by a Kashmiri student.

The findings sum up a research titled &#8216;Musharraf&#8217;s 4-point formula: A study in Kashmir Response&#8217; by Sameer Ahmad, a Kashmiri scholar at the Department of Political Sciences, University of Kashmir. The extensive research, carried out over a period of two years, says a staggering 68 percent of the people in Kashmir believe that the formula is a significant initiative towards normalization of the relations between the two nuclear neighbour-countries.
It was in December 2006 that Pakistan, then led by General Parvez Musharraf, departed from its traditional stand and came out with his four-point formula on Kashmir resolution.

The formula included &#8220;identifying certain regions, demilitarizing the identified regions along with curbing militant aspect of the freedom movement to give comfort to the common people in Kashmir, introducing self-rule in these areas and developing a joint mechanism with India, Pakistan and certain degree of representation from Kashmir to oversee self-government and deal with residual subjects common to all identified regions&#8221;.

The research shows that a vast majority of Kashmir population (59 percent) believes that the porous border between the two nuclear countries - India and Pakistan - not only helps increase the economic well-being but also facilitates restoring of the much-needed peace in the subcontinent. 

On the question of demilitarization, an overwhelming 87 percent people believe that troops have to be withdrawn. There is a widespread notion that Kashmir is a heavily militarised region, not only in South Asia but across the globe.

Although there is some kind of uncertainty over the element of self-governance and joint management, still a significant 43 percent of people consider these as helpful to resolve the over 60-year-old dispute.

The proposal, when floated, received fair amount of acceptability and mention in both the mainstream political circles and the moderate faction of Hurriyat; however, the Hurriyat faction led by Syed Ali Geelani outrightly rejected the proposal. The proposal has also been criticized on the ground that it was said to be based on religious identities.

Says Balraj Puri, noted journalist and human rights activist, &#8220;The proposal is based on religious identities which defies the ground realities. A solution to Kashmir problem on religious basis was unacceptable to India as it would threaten not only the secular basis of the country but also the unique Kashmiri identity and peace in the subcontinent.&#8221;

Musharraf's K formula the second best: Research


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## The HBS Guy

As far as I'm aware, PA (Kayani) is not in favour of this POV.


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## Ishan

Even Many in India Do not like Musharraf's Proposal


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## Mirza Jatt

*JK: Two militants killed in encounter with security forces*

Two militants were killed in an encounter with security forces in Kupwara district of north Kashmir [ Images ] in the wee hours of Monday morning, a police spokesman said. 

The encounter broke out when security forces confronted a group of militants at Bhawan forests in Zachaldara area of Handwara, 95 kms from Srinagar [ Images ], late on Sunday night, the spokesman said. Two militants were killed in the encounter which continued till the wee hours of Monday, he said. 

The identity and group affiliation of the slain militants could not be ascertained as the search operation in the area was going on when 
reports last came in, he said. Meanwhile, the search operation at Ahad Sahib locality of Sopore town, 55 kms from Srinagar, concluded on Monday morning. 

An unidentified militant was killed and a civilian was injured during the operation late on Sunday night. "Efforts are on to identity the slain militant," the spokesman said. 

Mohammad Afzal War, a resident of Noorbagh locality of Sopore, suffered injuries in his right arm and was undergoing treatment at the Bones and Joints Hospital, he said.

JK: Two militants killed in encounter - Rediff.com India News

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## The Clarifier

The point is that Kashmiris have been compromised between India and Pakistan and right now it is best if we both compromise. What better gift can we give to our fellow Muslims than to accept their wishes?


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## The HBS Guy

Great News


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## Subramanian

divya said:


> the ummah brotherhood comes into picture only when one has to find fault with others as otherwise when it comes at taking responsibilities muslims in india become non muslims and not creditable enough even for representation in OIC.
> 
> As far as your statement is concerned Indian muslims are our own blood brothers and what you are asking is that we part from our own brothers just for the sake of some third party. sorry completly disagree with u.



That was a rhetorical question,pakistanis have to toe one line.whatever be that line,choose it and live with it.If the stand is Kashmir belongs only to Kashmiri Muslims,thats hypocritical.I think the Pundit demand for a hindu homeland within kashmir is fair in my eyes.


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## Subramanian

december said:


> Subramanian,
> 
> You are not asked to speak for the indian muslims.We know what is
> best for us.If you think you cannot agree to indias secular idea it is you who should go out from india.
> I as indian muslim is happy tollive in india,and is proud tobe an indian.
> My only problem is only some indians(both in hindus & muslims) who cannot tolerate others



I am not suggesting that,but denying kashmiri pundits space in kashmir doesn't sound fair to me.

My stand is the current status quo is the best for all parties.

I would say that partition kashmir into 3,one for muslims(the area bordering *** and Northern areas),North East for the buddhists and the south for the Hindus.


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## Subramanian

Tshering22 said:


> What rubbish are you talking about? What was tried in Sikkim? You might want to repeat that. *Sikkim joined India willingly*. It is hard for you to accept this since military dictatorship in your country most of the time meant you're used to using force. This was because culturally and religiously, we're Indians and this is not the first time when Sikkim has joined India.
> 
> We were a serving kingdom to the Mauryan empire as well and prior to that. Get your history about us Sikkimese right before reading it off your master's mouthpiece; the People's Daily.



All religions and communities except Muslims(few of them) dont have a problem existing in India.


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## Subramanian

mr42O said:


> HAHA and where gona hindu will move if a some thing happens ? Any other hindu country in mind ? lol



India is Hindu country mate and even pakistan is hindu country,Tropical forests,agricultural land and mountains is where hindus stay,Muslims stay in deserts.


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## Subramanian

kingdurgaking said:


> No way man.. I have lots of muslim friends.... what the crap are you talking.. Because of a rant by one guy why do you take all of them for the toss??.. After all they our people why will you make them struggle further by sending them to Pakistan at present there is no opportunity for them there?



even i do,thats not the point.The Pakistani identity is so confused,they talk about Arabic and Urdu being the holy languages but they talk in 
Punjabi which is a total hinko language.They talk about secularism but slaughter minorities,whatever they say and do are not the same.

I was just inviting them to take a clear stand rather than pussyfoot all the time.


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## Subramanian

Gentle Typhoon said:


> Nice idea, Sikhs too have the right of their separate homeland, Take Khalistan, no Indo-Pak border will exist. Transport all Christians to Mini Orissa. _Na Rahega Baas, Na Bajegi Baansuri_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All pro-Hindu individuals and organizations should join hands to transform India into a *Hindu Republic of Bharat*.



Khalistan supporters are less than 5% of the sikh population and most of them illiterate peasants who dont have a clue.

Sikhs,Buddhists,Jains are all pagan hindu faiths and derivatives of classic vedic hinduism and they dont proclaim a strict condition of superiority of their faith alone.

u cannot compare it with semitic religions(judaism excluded) which are more like Unilever and P&G.


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## Pride

The Clarifier said:


> The point is that Kashmiris have been compromised between India and Pakistan and right now it is best if we both compromise. What better gift can we give to our *fellow Muslims *than to accept their wishes?



Your point was looking brilliant till the bolded part came... Come out of your attitude of seeing everything from religious angle.

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## DEXTOR

I dont see any other possible solution of kashmir rather then accepting the current LOC as IB........


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## The Clarifier

Pride said:


> Your point was looking brilliant till the bolded part came... Come out of your attitude of seeing everything from religious angle.



What I mean is that we, as Pakistanis, are always talking about helping our fellow Muslim Kashmiris but we never consider any other option aside from being merged with Pakistan. It is a religious affair, as we are tied by religion. They are humans but they are also Muslims... and right now I don't see any non-muslim country giving a damn about what is happening in Kashmir.


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## KS

*Make the goddamn LoC into IB.*

India cannot risk an open border and invite more terrorist attacks,arms/fake-currency smuggling.

We are having enough problems with the open Nepal border and the porous BD border.

Enough.No more un-regulated borders business.

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## POKO_MAN

Gr88 job done IA......keep it up the gud show !!!!


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## Subramanian

Jana said:


> My point was why he is saying so? Has he any reasons or points to back his statement ?
> 
> 
> In case of Kashmir we can understand that Kashmir was Never part of India neither Kashmiris consider themselves Indians.
> 
> 
> But in case of Nagas??? what is their history ?



Nagas have a lot of autonomy in their state and hardly anyone from outside ever goes down to settle there.The army is present to guard the borders but otherwise the Nagas run their own show.


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## Tshering22

Subramanian said:


> Nagas have a lot of autonomy in their state and hardly anyone from outside ever goes down to settle there.The army is present to guard the borders but otherwise the Nagas run their own show.


Yeah and being a part of India, any Indian is welcome to travel any part of the country freely. Nagaland's recent venture into tourism has created a boom in tourism based economic growth slowly into the state alongside Manipur's slow rise. Which means more skilled Indians will go there, teach the Nagas new ways and modernize them to make them as developed as other states of the country.

Naga regiment has made great sacrifices for this country and is entitled to as much equal privilege that all its states get.


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## Tshering22

Karthic Sri said:


> *Try saying that to these brave-hearts*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Naga Regiment*


On their face, dude.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*India killed two more innocent Kashmiris in OSJK ​* 
Monday, 01 November 2010 12:53 






Srinagar, November 01, 2010: Indian troops in their fresh act of state terrorism martyred two more innocent Kashmiri youth in Kupwara district. The troops killed the youth at Zachaldara in Handwara area of the district during a siege and search operation, which continued till last reports came in.

On the other hand, Indian police arrested two students identified as Feroz Ahmad Parray and Mudasir Ahmad in Palhallan town. Locals told media men that the students were on way to home after appearing in the Class XII examination.

Indian troops, in their continued acts of state terrorism, martyred 34 innocent people including a young boy in the last month of October. Of those martyred one civilian was killed in custody. These killings rendered 2 women widowed and 10 children orphaned.

During the month, 324 people were critically injured when Indian forces used brute force, fired bullets

and teargas shells against peaceful demonstrators in the occupied territory while 181 civilians, mostly youth, were arrested. The troops also disgraced 18 women and destroyed 11 residential houses during the month.

A 26-year-old widow, Yasmeena Begum is inconsolable even three months after her husbands death. Her life partner, Khursheed Ahmed fell to the bullets of Indian police and paramilitary CRPF troopers in Kupwara on August 1 during the present ongoing uprising.

Khursheed Ahmed was killed in unprovoked firing by Indian forces after he left his house to ferry a marriage party in his private vehicle to neighbouring Dardsun village.

Locals told media that the forces fired on him near Khazanmutti Kralpora- Shumnag road. Despite receiving bullets all over his body, Khursheed managed to crawl but he was again beaten by the men in uniform. His 19-year-old nephew, Owais, who tried to rush him to the hospital, was also beaten and later shot at and injured, they added.

Later, a few locals somehow managed to rescue the seriously injured Khursheed but he died on way to Kupwara hospital.

The Chairman of All Parites Hurriyat Conference (APHC), Syed Ali Shah Geelani has strongly denounced the killings of innocent Kashmiris by Indian forces and continued illegal detention of Hurriyat leader and the Vice Chairman of Jammu and Kashmir Muslim League, Masarrat Aalam Butt.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani in a statement issued in Srinagar termed Masarrat Aalam Butts detention in the infamous Cargo Camp of Special Operations Group of Indian forces as a political vendetta and frustration of the occupation authorities. He said that the authorities were violating the law while dealing with the illegally detained Kashmiri Hurriyat leaders and activists languishing in different jails and interrogation centre of India and the occupied territory.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani had said that India had launched a crackdown against the innocent people especially youth to suppress the ongoing liberation movement in the occupied territory but it would not succeed in its nefarious designs.

On the other hand, the Jammu and Kashmir Muslim League has expressed serious concern over the deteriorating health of its Vice Chairman, Masarrat Aalam Butt at SOG camp. The JKML spokesman in a statement issued in Srinagar said that the occupation authorities would be responsible if anything untoward happened to the detained leader.

Meanwhile, APHC spokesman had said that the appearance of posters in Srinagar serving it a two-day ultimatum to call off its campaign of shutdowns was the handiwork of Indian agents and an attempt to mislead the people of the territory.

The posters, pasted on the walls, said that the APHC is bringing economic miseries to the people and gave it a two-day ultimatum to call off its shutdowns and protests programmes announced in connection with the "Quit Kashmir Movement". The unsigned posters said if the ultimatum was not responded, the situation in the Valley would take a new turn and APHC would be responsible for that.

Pertinently APHC has called for a four-day shutdown beginning from November 5 on the occasion of the visit of the US President, Barack Obama to India to draw his attention towards the situation in the occupied territory.

The Jamaat-e-Islami in Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK) has urged India to take solid steps for resolving the Kashmir dispute in accordance with the Kashmiris aspirations so that durable peace could be ensured in South Asia.

The JI spokesman in a statement issued in Srinagar said that the Kashmir dispute was the main hurdle in cordial relations between India and Pakistan and it posed a serious threat to the regional peace.

The spokesman condemned the gross human rights violations being perpetrated by Indian troops in the occupied territory. He said that Indian forces barged into the houses of innocent people and harassed the inmates especially women and children.

He deplored that on one side, India was claiming to be the largest democracy of the world, while on the other, it had unleashed state terrorism in the occupied territory to suppress the Kashmiris just struggle for right of Self-Determination.

India killed two more innocent Kashmiris in OSJK

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## U-571

shameful..................

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## Avatar

Please start posting (and reading) real articles from neutral sources



U-571 said:


> shameful..................



2 Indians accidentally lose their lives, you say it's shameful. 90 Pakistanis are murdered in Karachi, you say it's politics.

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## majesticpankaj

Avatar said:


> Please start posting (and reading) real articles from neutral sources
> 
> 
> 
> 2 Indians accidentally lose their lives, you say it's shameful. 90 Pakistanis are murdered in Karachi, you say it's politics.


yaar, pakistaniyoin ko apne desh ki chodd ker puri duniya ki fiker hai....

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## Von Hölle

*Bogus source!!..most of their news turnout to be fake*.. as happened last time the thread starter quoted from this site.


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## Peacefulll

Von H&#246;lle;1240384 said:


> *Bogus source!!..most of their news turnout to be fake*.. as happened last time the thread starter quoted from this site.



The thread starter is the biggest fake, and is a racist bigot on top of it. You should have seen his comments on another forum, where he got banned around a couple of weeks back. No thread he starts should be graced with an intelligent response.

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## DEXTOR

The source of article is as credible as the Thread starter himself,,,that is...






just obbsessed with india and it internal matters....


no need to even read fake news with failed attempt

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## Dance

Avatar said:


> Please start posting (and reading) real articles from neutral sources
> 
> 
> 
> 2 Indians accidentally lose their lives, you say it's shameful. 90 Pakistanis are murdered in Karachi, you say it's politics.



2 Kashmiris*

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## ajtr

4 militants killed in Handwara, Kulgam
3 militants escape Sopore cordon 
Asem Mohiuddin
Handwara, Nov 1: Four militants were killed in two separate gunfights in North and South Kashmir on Monday while three militants managed to escape from troopers&#8217; cordon in Sopore. 
SP Handwara Rafiq Ahmad Vakil told Rising Kashmir that a gunfight broke out between militants and 21 Rashtria Rifles personnel in the forest of Zachaldara, Handwara in border district of Kupwara last evening. 
&#8220;The fierce exchange of fire between the two sides continued till this afternoon and in the ensuing gunfight two foreign militants of Lashkar-e-Toiba were killed,&#8221; he said adding bodies of both the militants have been recovered. 
Stating that their identity is being ascertained, he said two AK 47 rifles, 90 rounds, two hand grenades, six magazines and 4-5 kgs of dry fruits were recovered from their possession.
A police spokesman said that another gunfight broke out between militants and troopers in Kulgam district. 
Giving details SSP Srinagar, Syed Ashaq Hussain Bukhari said on specific information Srinagar police launched a joint operation with Kulgam police and 1-RR at Kaw Drang village in Kulgam district last evening. &#8220;During the combing operation, the militants hiding in the area opened fire on the search party. The fire was returned by the troopers, triggering an encounter. In the ensuing gunfight two militants were killed and another arrested,&#8221; he said.
He identified the slain militants as Mohammad Salim Ganai alias Faisal of Haff Shirmal Shopian and Hassan Bhai, a foreigner. &#8220;The arrested militant was identified as Azad Ahmad Bhat of Awat Shirmal Shopian. A huge cache of arms and ammunition was also recovered from the encounter site,&#8221; SSP Srinagar said.
Meanwhile, the three holed-up militants, who engaged police and army men in a gunfight at Ahab Bab Mohalla in Noorbagh area of Sopore last evening managed to give slip to the troopers. 
In an initial gun fight, a militant was killed and a civilian identified as Mohammad Afzal War son of Mohammad Ramzan War of Noorbagh was injured. He has been referred to Bone and Joints Hospital, Srinagar for treatment, where doctors have termed his condition as stable.
According to police official two grenades were recovered from the slain militant, who has been identified as Irshad Ahmad of Gundbrat, Sopore.


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## ajtr

above is propaganda news as no 12th class exams are conducted in india in this season.


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## ajtr

*Four militants killed in gunbattles in Kashmir*​

*Four militants, including two from Lashker-e-Taiba (LET), were killed in separate gunbattles with security forces in Kupwara and Kulgam districts of Kashmir Valley on Monday, officials said.*

The LeT militants were killed in a gunfight with a joint team of police and Rashtriya Rifles at Kaladrung in Yaripora area of Kulgam district, 85 kms from here, this afternoon, they said.

As per preliminary investigations, the slain militants were identified as Abu Huzaifa Mahi and his local accomplice Mohammad Saleem Ganai.

In another encounter, a police spokesman said two militants were killed when security forces confronted them at Bhawan forests in Zachaldara area of Handwara, 95 kms from here, in the early hours.

Their identity and affiliation could not be ascertained as the search operation in the area was on till evening, he said.

He also said that security forces recovered two AK assault rifles, six magazines, 90 rounds of ammunition and two hand grenades from the scene of the gunbattle.

Meanwhile, the militant killed in the encounter with security forces at Ahad Sahib locality of Sopore town, 55 kms from here, in Baramulla district yesterday has been identified as Irshad Ahmad Mir alias Ammar, a resident of Gundbrat village of Sopore.

Mir was affiliated with Harkat-ul-Mujahideen (HuM) outfit, the officials said adding two hand grenades were recovered from the spot. A civilian was also injured injured in the crossfire.

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## U-571

Avatar said:


> Please start posting (and reading) real articles from neutral sources
> 
> 
> 
> 2 Indians accidentally lose their lives, you say it's shameful. 90 Pakistanis are murdered in Karachi, you say it's politics.



kashmir is experiencing an ethnic cleasening, what is happening in karachi is a political turmoil, it happens in india too, you are viewing two different things, next time you would say!!, heck two indians are also dying of hunger daily whats the difference????

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## ajtr

pakistani propaganda mill in full flow lol

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## karan.1970

U-571 said:


> kashmir is experiencing an ethnic cleasening, what is happening in karachi is a political turmoil, it happens in india too, you are viewing two different things, next time you would say!!, heck two indians are also dying of hunger daily whats the difference????



Generally, reduction in % population of the target ethinicity in the given area is indicative of the cleansing exercise you mentioned. Have you looked up the figures for 1950 vs today in Kashmir? You may have a different view to this after that. 

And isnt Karachi also seeing sectarian violence, since the parties on the war path are on the opposing ends of ethinic spectrum. But that any way is off topic..


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## sergente rehan

This is the reality, the bitter truth. Open violation of human rights, killing of innocent civilians and violence is the ordinary things led by indian army in indian occupied Kashmire. We must condemn this shamefull act. There are no excuses for all this.




Avatar said:


> Please start posting (and reading) real articles from neutral sources
> 
> 
> 
> 2 Indians accidentally lose their lives, you say it's shameful. 90 Pakistanis are murdered in Karachi, you say it's politics.



First of all they are Kashmiries and Muslims. Secondly indian forces are occupying Kashmire and killing innocent civilians from past 60 years and you are trying to say that's it perfectly normal?!

Karachi is a city, it's a diffrent case as there are a lot of murders and gangs war also in indian cities like Bombay etc. You can't compare 2 whole diffrent scenarios and hide behind these lame excues.


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## Hulk

Actually we have a meter which tells us who is most inoccent person in Kashmir. The moment we find them we just walk and tell them, dude you are so innocent you should be killed. You neither indulge in terrorism, nor do stone pelting, so you should be killed.

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## Ganguly

Rediff On The NeT: An interview with Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw

*Nice Read*

Sam Manekshaw, the first field marshal in the Indian army, was at the ringside of events when Independent India was being formed. Then a colonel, he was chosen to accompany V P Menon on his historic mission to Kashmir. This is his version of that journey and its aftermath, as recorded in an interview with Prem Shankar Jha. 

At about 2.30 in the afternoon, General Sir Roy Bucher walked into my room and said, 'Eh, you, go and pick up your toothbrush. You are going to Srinagar with V P Menon. The flight will take off at about 4 o'clock'. I said, 'why me, sir?' 

'Because we are worried about the military situation. V P Menon is going there to get the accession from the Maharaja and Mahajan.' I flew in with V P Menon in a Dakota. Wing Commander Dewan, who was then squadron leader Dewan, was also there. But his job did not have anything to with assessing the military situation. He was sent by the Air Force because it was the Air Force which was flying us in.' 

Since I was in the Directorate of Military Operations, and was responsible for current operations all over India, West Frontier, the Punjab, and elsewhere, I knew what the situation in Kashmir was. I knew that the tribesmen had come in - initially only the tribesmen - supported by the Pakistanis. 

Fortunately for us, and for Kashmir, they were busy raiding, raping all along. In Baramulla they killed Colonel D O T Dykes. Dykes and I were of the same seniority. We did our first year's attachment with the Royal Scots in Lahore, way back in 1934-5. Tom went to the Sikh regiment. I went to the Frontier Force regiment. We'd lost contact with each other. He'd become a lieutenant colonel. I'd become a full colonel. 

Tom and his wife were holidaying in Baramulla when the tribesmen killed them. 

The Maharaja's forces were 50 per cent Muslim and 50 per cent Dogra. 

The Muslim elements had revolted and joined the Pakistani forces. This was the broad military situation. The tribesmen were believed to be about 7 to 9 kilometers from Srinagar. I was sent into get the precise military situation. The army knew that if we had to send soldiers, we would have to fly them in. Therefore, a few days before, we had made arrangements for aircraft and for soldiers to be ready. 

But we couldn't fly them in until the state of Kashmir had acceded to India. From the political side, Sardar Patel and V P Menon had been dealing with Mahajan and the Maharaja, and the idea was that V.P Menon would get the Accession, I would bring back the military appreciation and report to the government. The troops were already at the airport, ready to be flown in. Air Chief Marshall Elmhurst was the air chief and he had made arrangements for the aircraft from civil and military sources. 

Anyway, we were flown in. We went to Srinagar. We went to the palace. I have never seen such disorganisation in my life. The Maharaja was running about from one room to the other. I have never seen so much jewellery in my life --- pearl necklaces, ruby things, lying in one room; packing here, there, everywhere. There was a convoy of vehicles. 

The Maharaja was coming out of one room, and going into another saying, 'Alright, if India doesn't help, I will go and join my troops and fight (it) out'. 

I couldn't restrain myself, and said, 'That will raise their morale sir'. Eventually, I also got the military situation from everybody around us, asking what the hell was happening, and discovered that the tribesmen were about seven or nine kilometres from what was then that horrible little airfield. 

V P Menon was in the meantime discussing with Mahajan and the Maharaja. Eventually the Maharaja signed the accession papers and we flew back in the Dakota late at night. There were no night facilities, and the people who were helping us to fly back, to light the airfield, were Sheikh Abdullah, Kasimsahib, Sadiqsahib, Bakshi Ghulam Mohammed, D P Dhar with pine torches, and we flew back to Delhi. I can't remember the exact time. It must have been 3 o'clock or 4 o'clock in the morning. 

(On arriving at Delhi) the first thing I did was to go and report to Sir Roy Bucher. He said, 'Eh, you, go and shave and clean up. There is a cabinet meeting at 9 o'clock. I will pick you up and take you there.' So I went home, shaved, dressed, etc. and Roy Bucher picked me up, and we went to the cabinet meeting. 

The cabinet meeting was presided by Mountbatten. There was Jawaharlal Nehru, there was Sardar Patel, there was Sardar Baldev Singh. There were other ministers whom I did not know and did not want to know, because I had nothing to do with them. Sardar Baldev Singh I knew because he was the minister for defence, and I knew Sardar Patel, because Patel would insist that V P Menon take me with him to the various states. 

Almost every morning the Sardar would sent for V P, H M Patel and myself. While Maniben (Patel's daughter and de facto secretary) would sit cross-legged with a Parker fountain pen taking notes, Patel would say, 'V P, I want Baroda. Take him with you.' I was the bogeyman. So I got to know the Sardar very well. 

At the morning meeting he handed over the (Accession) thing. Mountbatten turned around and said, ' come on Manekji (He called me Manekji instead of Manekshaw), what is the military situation?' I gave him the military situation, and told him that unless we flew in troops immediately, we would have lost Srinagar, because going by road would take days, and once the tribesmen got to the airport and Srinagar, we couldn't fly troops in. Everything was ready at the airport. 

As usual Nehru talked about the United Nations, Russia, Africa, God almighty, everybody, until Sardar Patel lost his temper. He said, 'Jawaharlal, do you want Kashmir, or do you want to give it away'. He (Nehru) said,' Of course, I want Kashmir (emphasis in original). Then he (Patel) said 'Please give your orders'. And before he could say anything Sardar Patel turned to me and said, 'You have got your orders'. 

I walked out, and we started flying in troops at about 11 o'clock or 12 o'clock. I think it was the Sikh regiment under Ranjit Rai that was the first lot to be flown in. And then we continued flying troops in. That is all I know about what happened. Then all the fighting took place. I became a brigadier, and became director of military operations and also if you will see the first signal to be signed ordering the cease-fire on 1 January (1949) had been signed by Colonel Manekshaw on behalf of C-in-C India, General Sir Roy Bucher. That must be lying in the Military Operations Directorate.

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## ajtr

kahani................................


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## Hulk

So Nehru was jackass, thanks to Sardar Patel.


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## StingRoy

Interesting read there... looks like Manekshaw still has that punch of humour.



> I couldn't restrain myself, and said, 'That will raise their morale sir'.

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## d14gtc

iTs not a kahani buddy.... its d Decesion making capability of som jaka$$ who literaly given away the whole nation in pocession of intruders n UN and also som of the FINEST Men an Iron Men whose sacrificies made us to Breath now with sennse of Security without any fear that till such men are thier we can kick ne1s A$$ to its destination.


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## divya

nehru was azzhole. please raise your hands in democratic manner. feel free to disagree

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## prototype

Good that Patel was not the PM ,otherwise not just Indian occupied Kashmir but Azad Kashmir would have been also lost its azadi.

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## KS

> The Maharaja was coming out of one room, and going into another saying, 'Alright, if India doesn't help, I will go and join my troops and fight (it) out'.



Thats the Dogra spirit.



> As usual Nehru talked about the United Nations, Russia, Africa, God almighty, everybody, until Sardar Patel lost his temper. He said, *'Jawaharlal, do you want Kashmir, or do you want to give it away'. *He (Nehru) said,' Of course, I want Kashmir (emphasis in original). Then he (Patel) said 'Please give your orders'. *And before he could say anything Sardar Patel turned to me and said, 'You have got your orders'. *



No wonder the Iron Man of India. 

We must thank our stars that the same God that gave us Nehru also gave us a Sardar Patel.

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## Chanakyaa

Well, No one is 100% perfect and yet i maintain that Nehru was a man who gave India due to which we are.... What we r today.

One Perfect Example : IT WAS NEHRU'S BLIND FAITH ON HIS MEN... LIKE DR. HOMI BHABHA.. WHICH LED TO THE BIRTH OF AEC, BARC AND ISRO.

NOW TELL ME.. THAT JACKA.SS GAVE U THE VISION OF A MORDERN INDIA. AND LOOK THAT INDIA HAS GROWN MORDERN ENOUGH TO CALL THE FATHER OF MORDERN INDIA .. A JACK.***..

DO THINK.. INDIA AND PAKISTAN STARTED TOGETHER... BUT WHERE DO WE STAND TODAY ? AND WHY ?

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## LaBong

What is OSJK?


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## Fireurimagination

Abir said:


> What is OSJK?



Occupied state of Jammu and Kashmir I guess


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## MYSTIC

divya said:


> nehru was azzhole. please raise your hands in democratic manner. feel free to disagree





Nehru and Morarjee are the only two Prime ministers who actually did the country good.


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## MYSTIC

XiNiX said:


> Well, No one is 100% perfect and yet i maintain that Nehru was a man who gave India due to which we are.... What we r today.
> 
> One Perfect Example : IT WAS NEHRU'S BLIND FAITH ON HIS MEN... LIKE DR. HOMI BHABHA.. WHICH LED TO THE BIRTH OF AEC, BARC AND ISRO.
> 
> NOW TELL ME.. THAT JACKA.SS GAVE U THE VISION OF A MORDERN INDIA. AND LOOK THAT INDIA HAS GROWN MORDERN ENOUGH TO CALL THE FATHER OF MORDERN INDIA .. A JACK.***..
> 
> DO THINK.. INDIA AND PAKISTAN STARTED TOGETHER... BUT WHERE DO WE STAND TODAY ? AND WHY ?



Cannot agree more. Also educational institutes started under Nehru are now among the best in the world. We cannot forget his contribution in aviation industries. The airport that were built during his time are still being used in most cities.


----------



## Avatar

To all those who are replying me and alleging ethnic cleansing. Well, how can 2 deaths a day be ethnic cleansing ? If we apply your logic, Pakistan should be ethnically cleansed by now because almost everyday at least one Muslim suicide bombs himself killing several other Muslims, almost every week dozens of so called militants are killed like dogs by the Indian army. How does it matter ? The dogs will never stop comming in. 2 deaths is too little for "Ethnic cleansing". What Israel is doing is also not ethnic cleansing. What Hitler did WAS Ethnic cleansing. You people have simply lost it. 

Someone said Karachi is a city like Mumbai and cannot be compared with Kashmir. I appreciate you making an effort trying to make sense here, but you fail. Both are regions within respective territories controlled by sovereign governments. How can you take care of Kashmir when you cannot take care of Karachi or even Balochistan ?


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## KS

MYSTIC said:


> Nehru and Morarjee are the only two Prime ministers who actually did the country good.



You mean the same Morarji Desai who phoned up Zia and bragged about how RAW/CIA had told him about Pakistan's nuclear plans. ? 

Seriously you could have picked a better choice.


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## Bang Galore

divya said:


> *nehru was azzhole.* please raise your hands in democratic manner. feel free to disagree



How easy to be dismissive of Nehru, to describe him in a pejorative manner as you do! A man who went to jail many times, including once with his father for this country's freedom, who gave us the India that we have today; a secular, free country. So free that someone like you can actually use an epithet like you have to describe the single greatest contributor to the modern Indian republic. The man who built all the dams that Pakistanis keep wishing that their leaders had, the man whose vision for an incredibly poor country included Institutions like the IIT's & IIM's at a time when many argued that the money would be better spent elsewhere, the man who started India off on a nuclear journey that would one day give his successors the ability to exercise the options that they did.

Easy to remember the few mistakes of the man than to acknowledge the greatness that reflects itself today in the institutions of India.

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## MYSTIC

Karthic Sri said:


> You mean the same Morarji Desai who phoned up Zia and bragged about how RAW/CIA had told him about Pakistan's nuclear plans. ?
> 
> Seriously you could have picked a better choice.



Probably not the best statesman but promoter of peace and harmony.


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## amigo

nehru was a person without spine, firstly he rode on gandhi's back & then patel, his foreign policy was very very weak, it was patel who did not listen to nehru & annexed hydrabad & junagarh, nehru was not willing to do much for that, same with kashmir he ran to UN lifting his tail without captureing whole kashmir & in 1962 india faced defeat from hand of china bcoz nehru thought china will never attack india, so never think of protecting border with china


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## KS

MYSTIC said:


> Probably not the best statesman but promoter of peace and harmony.



Id rather prefer a statesman than one who promotes peace and harmony (though he failed miserably in that too).


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## IND151

Nehru knew the value of science.he was planning about nuclear program of India in 1944.he is responsible for creation of Isro and BARC and our nuclear program.he said that,''dams are temples of modern India".*we owe him too much!*


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## IND151

*Id rather prefer a statesman than one who promotes peace and harmony (though he failed miserably in that too).*yes i agree!


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## amigo

nehru was a good statesman but with weak foreign policy


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## SpArK

Nehru was the first PM of a newly created nation . he started from 0 .. so he cant be judged much on his foreign policy skills or governance or anything.. It was messy and it took some years or maybe a decade to put everything back in order.. 

Lots of states didnt even exist for a long time since the creation of nation.

Anyway i dont like him.


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## third eye

It is easy to pontificate in hind sight.

Nehru must be credited for laying the foundations of the democracy we enjoy. Like all leaders who stay in power for too long he too believed that his point of view was the best option.

It was Sardar Patel who consolidated India. Were it not for him besides and East & West there would have been a Southern & SWPak as well.

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## JonAsad

I have seen some indians thrashing Gandhi,
now i am seeing some thrashing Nehru.

Let me ask, who were your independence heroes again?


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## third eye

JonAsad said:


> I have seen some indians thrashing Gandhi,
> now i am seeing some thrashing Nehru.
> 
> Let me ask, who were your independence heroes again?



They all are.

They like us were humans as well and therefore could make errors too.In any case at that level decisions are taken based on inputs from the team.


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## JonAsad

third eye said:


> They all are.
> 
> They like us were humans as well and therefore could make errors too.In any case at that level decisions are taken based on inputs from the team.



So we should thank and acknowledge one, for the greater good he has done, and also insult and abuse him for his other mistakes, ok i got it.


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## KS

JonAsad said:


> So we should thank and acknowledge one, for the greater good he has done, and also* insult and abuse him* for his other mistakes, ok i got it.



its called "criticising" and not "abusing".

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## third eye

JonAsad said:


> So we should thank and acknowledge one, for the greater good he has done, and also insult and abuse him for his other mistakes, ok i got it.



You are putting things in a manner you would like to believe.

There is no harm in questioning no one is God.


----------



## Ganguly

Probably the greatest contribution to our nation was he being a firm believer of secularism, he advocated religious tolerance and separation of religion from politics. In long term, it helped India.


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## Prometheus

sergente rehan said:


> This is the reality, the bitter truth. Open violation of human rights, killing of innocent civilians and violence is the ordinary things led by indian army in indian occupied Kashmire. We must condemn this shamefull act. There are no excuses for all this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First of all they are Kashmiries and Muslims. Secondly indian forces are occupying Kashmire and killing innocent civilians from past 60 years and you are trying to say that's it perfectly normal?!
> 
> Karachi is a city, it's a diffrent case as there are a lot of murders and gangs war also in indian cities like Bombay etc. You can't compare 2 whole diffrent scenarios and hide behind these lame excues.


I never knew that Kashmiris are muslims only..............who are Kashmiri pandits and Ladakhi Bhudists????

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## amigo

many of these innocents try to cross loc & roam in kashmir holding ak-47

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## Tshering22

And someone on other day was complaining to me that we shouldn't meddle in their internal matter!


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## JonAsad

Karthic Sri said:


> its called "criticising" and not "abusing".



Azzhole is a abuse i think.


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## Gentle Typhoon

JonAsad said:


> I have seen some indians thrashing Gandhi,
> now i am seeing some thrashing Nehru.
> 
> Let me ask, who were *your* independence heroes again?



'Our' if you meant independence from British.

List of freedom fighters -
Indian independence activists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I dont like Nehru, Gandhi.

Hehe azzhole is nothing abuse, In my state Gandhi = D1ck, both bald on top. Masturbation = Beating Gandhi, We ask in Punjabi 'Tu Gandhi kutna chhad ta?' English - (Have you stopped beating your Gandhi?) Hindi/Urdu - 'Muth Marni Chod di kya?'


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## JonAsad

third eye said:


> You are putting things in a manner you would like to believe.
> 
> There is no harm in questioning no one is God.



but there is a harm in abusing, i think.


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## Tshering22

Prometheus said:


> I never knew that Kashmiris are muslims only..............who are Kashmiri pandits and Ladakhi Bhudists????


The issue in Kashmir is religion card, bro. We Indians take this as " no it is not religion" but it is always religion for them. This is why pandits/sikhs and buddhists were exterminated out of the valley by Muslims in 89. 

And then someone cries about "Indian zionist radicalism" and "CIA-RAW-MOSSAD" nexus. 

The hypocrisy!


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## karan.1970

Prometheus said:


> I never knew that Kashmiris are muslims only..............who are Kashmiri pandits and Ladakhi Bhudists????



Occupiers ?


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## karan.1970

Mumbai said:


> 4 Pakistani Freedom Fighters were Killed



3 cheers for that.. 4 down, a lot more to go..


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## Indiannn

Good going Indian Army!


----------



## S_O_C_O_M

*Arundhati Roy's house attacked​*
By Andrew Buncombe, Asia Correspondent

Monday, 1 November 2010

Dozens of right-wing activists attacked and vandalised the house of Booker prize-winning writer Arundhati Roy over comments she made suggesting *Kashmir had never been an integral part of India.* 

Up to 100 activists, most of them members of the womens wing of a Hindu-nationalist political party, gathered outside Ms Roys home in Delhi and starting damaging flower-pots. Security guards along with some of Ms Roys domestic servants prevented the demonstrators from entering the house. 

Last night, Ms Roy, who was not at home at the time of the attack condemned the activists but also questioned the role of the broadcast media, as TV crews had been present at her home, apparently tipped off about the protest. 

What is the nature of the agreement between these sections of the media and mobs and criminals in search of spectacle? Does the media which positions itself at the scene in advance have a guarantee that the attacks and demonstrations will be non-violent? What happens if there is criminal trespass or even something worse, Ms Roy said in a statement. Does the media then become accessory to the crime? This question is important, given that some TV channels and newspapers are in the process of brazenly inciting mob anger against me. In the race for sensationalism the line between reporting news and manufacturing news is becoming blurred. 

The demonstration by members of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) followed comments Ms Roy last month at a public seminar on Kashmir. During the meeting in Delhi, she said the long-disputed Kashmir region had never been an integral part of India. Even the Indian government has accepted this. Why are we trying to change this now, the activist and author The God of Small Things, had said. 

Indias political opposition immediately leapt on the comments and demanded that she be charged with sedition. While the law ministry took advice on the issue, the government eventually decided not to proceed with charges against the writer. 

Last night, police in Delhi said they were investigating the attack on Ms Roys house, located in the citys diplomatic quarter. Meanwhile, Shika Roy, president of the local womens wing of the BJP and who led the protest, told reporters: The protest was organised against Arundhati Roy's remarks on azadi for Kashmir. We chose to protest on Sunday as it happens to be the birth anniversary of Sardar Vallabhai Patel who united the whole country. 

Ms Roys comments on Kashmir come after months of turmoil in the valley, where fresh demonstrations for autonomy broke out in in June. The once-independent kingdom has been fought over since 1947 when its Hindu ruler decided the Muslim majority state should join independent India, rather than the newly-created Pakistan. An insurgency that gathered pace after India rigged elections in 1987, combined with an unrelenting response from the Indian authorities that has transformed Kashmir into one of the most militarised places on the planet, has led to the deaths of more than 70,000 people. Most Hindus were forced out or fled. For many years, Pakistan provided weapons and training to many of the Kashmiri militants. 

The government has recently appointed three interlocuters to meet with the valleys separatists but even that has not been without controversy. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh was forced to defend the trio after they said that Pakistan needed to be involved in any resolution for the disputed region  something that infuriated th2 BJP. Mr Singh later said: Comments in a democracy are free. 

Arundhati Roy's house attacked - Asia, World - The Independent


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## karan.1970

Freedom of expression taken to extreme.. But I for one am not complaining..

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## r3alist

hardly surprising, i know some indian wish her dead but i hope the people who believe in free speech and all the other ideals india preach protect her right to a voice


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## Hyde

Aaj India main secularism or Free-Speech ki "watt" lag gayi hai 



karan.1970 said:


> Freedom of expression taken to extreme.. *But I for one am not complaining*..



 we have an extremist here

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## karan.1970

Zaki said:


> Aaj India main secularism or Free-Speech ki "watt" lag gayi hai
> 
> 
> 
> we have an extremist here





You should understand that the way religion is to you, our country is to us. I remember what happened to me when I as a newbie opened up a thread of an interview with Salman Rushdie. Arundhatti Roy is no different to us that what a Rushdie is to you...

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## Hyde

Mumbai said:


> Extremly Correct.
> 
> Indian Secularism Failed that day When Muslims were given Haj Subsidy.


lol,
Then why Hindu's aren't being given any of such subsidy?

Does the Indian Government has any fear of revolution/insurgency from the Muslim population so that they are giving them extra benefits? 

If that is correct, I find lack of insecurity here by the GoI


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## Peshwa

karan.1970 said:


> You should understand that the way religion is to you, our country is to us. I remember what happened to me when I as a newbie opened up a thread of an interview with Salman Rushdie. Arundhatti Roy is no different to us that what a Rushdie is to you...



Though Karan....I dont advocate violence as a mean to this....

Especially when civilians become vigilantes.....we really dont need a TTP type moral and national police telling us what we should and should not do.....

I prefer jailing her types so she thinks twice before alienating an entire nation of a billion....

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## r3alist

shall we play a game? lets count how many indians defend her right to say what she wants?

please PM me your quesses.


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## Hyde

Peshwa said:


> I prefer jailing her types so she thinks twice before alienating an entire nation of a billion....



please do it,
that will pave her way to get Noble Award by next year

I guarantee, that will become a matter of pride for the Indian public after she gets noble award 

PS: I know she is probably among the few females of our subcontinent for whom, even Pakistanis will be cherishing for her achievement after he gets that award

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## r3alist

Mumbai said:


> We shall completely Defend Salman Rushdie's Statements and Support his Freedom of Speech.



oooohhh, you really burned me there big man.

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## r3alist

Mumbai said:


> Satan has Arrived.



i believe for you that is a young indian women talking about kashmir not belonging to india - to you that is the definition of the devil - no wonder you want to kill it


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## Hyde

Mumbai said:


> Muslims are never content with anything.
> 
> Given their Victim Mentality, Even after giving 2 Nations, They want Islamisation of India, Pakistan wants Kashmir and Punjab to be broken from India, Some Bangladeshis want North East India.
> 
> There are Muslims within South Asia who Dream of Mughlistan
> 
> Even after so much problems, Muslim Appeasing Congress still gives Haj Subsidy which puts the Islamic Nations to Shame.



If that is the way other indians thinks,
I am afraid they are already so frightened by the Muslim population of India. I strongly disagree with you because I know the way Indian public think

You have a lack of insecurity in your post.... you have already alienated Kashmiris, North East Indians and even the peoples living deep inside India 

Not the best argument I would say

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## karan.1970

Peshwa said:


> Though Karan....I dont advocate violence as a mean to this....
> 
> Especially when civilians become vigilantes.....we really dont need a TTP type moral and national police telling us what we should and should not do.....
> 
> I prefer jailing her types so she thinks twice before alienating an entire nation of a billion....



I agree on the violence part, but this was nothing of the sort. I actually saw this happening. A bunch of women broke some pots and damaged some flowers *outside *her house. But you are right. If the govt grows a pair, all this becomes unnecessary. On the other hand by throwing her in the slammer, you give her even more publicity, which she is any way getting more than she is worth..

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## Von Hölle

I am for one am happy govt did not take any action against her..let the right wing extremist and left wing liberals deal it on their own...people should realize* " jis thali mein khatein hain us thali mein ched nahin karna chahiaye" *


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## StingRoy

I would have expected that she would have asked for security from the govt. after her comments received widespread flak. 
Anyways... not much was damaged... only a few gamlaas.


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## Tshering22

That cheap sub-human traitor should thank her stars that only her house was attacked. It could have been much worse (for her). 

Besides, she shouldn't be complaining eh? India's democracy. She exercised her FREEDOM OF SPEECH to slander the national sentiments of Indians; the activists used their FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION to make their feelings heard. 

Lets call it even.


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## karan.1970

dezi said:


> I would have expected that she would have asked for security from the govt. after her comments received widespread flak.
> Anyways... not much was damaged... only a few gamlaas.



And this makes the news.. lol


----------



## Hyde

@Mumbai

Buddy I am talking about your post, not talking about the peoples of India...

and FYI, there is a BAN penalty for the post you wrote (post 19)... so either edit your post or bye bye forever

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## Abu Zolfiqar

so much for being the ''largest democracy''


isnt it


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## Von Hölle

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> so much for being the '*'largest democracy''*
> 
> 
> isnt it



*Why did you expect a plebiscite on this too??..that "if one should hold protest in front of her house"??*


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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> so much for being the ''largest democracy''
> 
> 
> isnt it



why so? Even these people had a right of free expression. If they damaged something, Ms Roy can always claim damages. They didnt blow up her house.. Did they ?


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

Tshering22 said:


> That cheap sub-human traitor should thank her stars that only her house was attacked. It could have been much worse (for her).



so much anger in your post!  

lol, control yourself



> Besides, she shouldn't be complaining eh? India's democracy. She exercised her FREEDOM OF SPEECH to slander the national sentiments of Indians; the activists used their FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION to make their feelings heard.



i guess underlying objective was to voice concerns over Kashmir, she didnt seem to be worried too much about domestic backlash. She's a human rights activist, and india did commit many human rights violations in Kashmir

obviously her and people like her will mobilize and speak out; kind of like how Asma Jahangir speaks out against groups that discriminate against Ahmedis (and in my opinion, rightfully so) --though that isnt relevant here


----------



## Windjammer

Zaki said:


> @Mumbai
> 
> Buddy I am talking about your post, not talking about the peoples of India...
> 
> and FYI, there is a BAN penalty for the post you wrote (post 19)... so either edit your post or bye bye forever



My dear, Zaki !!!

I once saw a war movie, the highlight was....., you don't win a war, by kissing the enemy.

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## desiman

Arundhati is also not an integral part of India so frankly what happens to her is none of our concern.


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## Tshering22

> You have a lack of insecurity in your post.... you have already alienated Kashmiris, *North East Indians *and even the peoples living deep inside India



Can you elaborate what do you mean by GOI 'alienated' us? I am from northeast and I am not at all alienated. From Vivekanandnagar in Arunachal to Jamnagar in Gujarat and from Srinagar (it should be Gilgit but thanks to you...) to Rameshwaram and island territories of my country is open to me and my fellow northeasterners. 

We're welcomed everywhere in India because of our uniqueness and slight difference of appearance, whether it is Maharashtra or Punjab or any other state. I myself have been warmly welcomed by some Punjabi Sikh acquaintances who referred to me as " sundar pahadiyon ka rehne waala" (Sikkim is very mountainous and picturesque). 

The thing is, our terrain doesn't allow for development like Mumbai and Bangalore and Delhi much and therefore it is difficult to get to that level. Also, culturally we are very content people with basic amenities of life as Buddhism inculcates us to be satisfied with what we have and not be greedy. 

Don't mix up Isaak Muivah Christian-Taliban terrorists with entire northeastern people. Those losers just are like what TTP are for you. You telling that we're "alienated" is like we saying you people neglect TTP and hence it formed a group and is struggling. Let's respect each others' position.

I am surprised how you call us "alienated" just because of our location.

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## Dance

Mumbai said:


> Has she accepted Pakistani Citizenship?
> 
> *Well It would be fun to watch her in Burqa :*P



Does your trolling never end? I'm pretty sure you're a previous banned member


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## Hyde

Windjammer said:


> My dear, Zaki !!!
> 
> I once saw a war movie, the highlight was....., you don't win a war, by kissing the enemy.



I am currently on ceasefire

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## Hyde

Mumbai said:


> But Yours is already done by the Bengalis



You're forgetting that you are standing beyond the boundaries of LOC (with the permission of Government of PDF)

But seems like I will have to say "Bye bye baby" - I will not miss you

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## Tshering22

Dance said:


> Does your trolling never end? I'm pretty sure you're a previous banned member


You're the one showing so much love to her. What's wrong in what he said? If you love her so much, take her with you. We certainly don't mind.


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## Dance

Tshering22 said:


> You're the one showing so much love to her. What's wrong in what he said? If you love her so much, take her with you. We certainly don't mind.



Yeah its pretty obvious the worlds biggest "democracy" cannot handle her


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## Von Hölle

Zaki said:


> I am currently on ceasefire



*Though lately you have been idling your engines!!*


----------



## Vassnti

The "K" word comes out and people start foaming at the mouth over who owns it

I always thought, though i am obviously in the minority that Kashmir doesnt belong to either India or Pakistan but belongs to the Kashmiri's


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## Donatello

karan.1970 said:


> Freedom of expression taken to extreme.. But I for one am not complaining..



Giving Arundhati the freedom would show how secular and tolerant Indian people are. But such incidents highlight the fact that the current India is far from that.


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## StingRoy

karan.1970 said:


> And this makes the news.. lol



Kya karein... in reporters ke paas bahut phaltu time hai... 
(xlation: What say... too much free time with these reporters... )

Some people want to give her more news coverage than she deserves..


----------



## JonAsad

Vassnti said:


> The "K" word comes out and people start foaming at the mouth over who owns it
> 
> I always thought, though i am obviously in the minority that Kashmir doesnt belong to either India or Pakistan but belongs to the Kashmiri's



dont say that, those indian radicals will attack your house too, and indian posters here will label you a traitor


----------



## StingRoy

penumbra said:


> Giving Arundhati the freedom would show how secular and tolerant Indian people are. But such incidents highlight the fact that the current India is far from that.



Well if the govt would have wanted to prove otherwise they would have arrested her in sedition charges already. That itself is enough to prove India's democracy and secularism is strong and no one can break it.

This is almost a non-issue and media is making a mountain out of a mole.

And to all you people from our friendly neighborhood... where was this compassion when the Kashmiri mobs were destroying public property and rampaging on the streets? Double standards... cough!


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## Karachiite

Poor woman. She says the truth and stands up for what she believes in but in return she has to face life threatening situations.


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## Vassnti

JonAsad said:


> dont say that, those indian radicals will attack your house too, and indian posters here will label you a traitor



Can they leave it a few years before they attack the house, its always been a dream that when im old and retired i can sit in a rocking chair on my porch with a shotgun taking potshots at idiots. 
If they were attacking the house it might even be leagal to shoot them


----------



## scrumpy

Aashiq said:


> Poor woman. She says the truth and stands up for what she believes in but in return she has to face life threatening situations.



Ok guys. Lets put this into perspective.

She uses her right to free speech and says something which is inflammatory to a bunch of people. A group of women claim their right to peaceful gathering and gather outside her house. In the process 2 flower pots were broken.

And these 2 incidents highlight all that is wrong with the Indian democracy... exactly how??

Did any one make threats to kill one another?
Was anyone other then the 2 flowerpots hurt in this interaction?

I am rather proud of these 2 group of extremists who have exercised their rights rather peacefully. Ok the flower pots may not agree with me.

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## Peshwa

Zaki said:


> please do it,
> that will pave her way to get Noble Award by next year
> 
> I guarantee, that will become a matter of pride for the Indian public after she gets noble award
> 
> *PS: I know she is probably among the few females of our subcontinent for whom, even Pakistanis will be cherishing for her achievement after he gets that award*



And ill bet you half the Pakistanis posting on this thread didnt know who she was or had read her book until the recent spurt of news about her.........and are blindly supporting her because of her recent views on Kashmir....

But then again....its a subcontinental habit you see..

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## scrumpy

Peshwa said:


> And ill bet you half the Pakistanis posting on this thread didnt know who she was or had read her book.....but are blindly supporting her because of her recent views on Kashmir....
> 
> But then again....its a subcontinental habit you see..



I bet you that non of the Pakistanis posting here would even want to know what her views on Pakistan are.

Here is an interesting interview with her on Tehelka.

Tehelka - India's Independent Weekly News Magazine

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## Peshwa

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> so much for being the ''largest democracy''
> 
> 
> isnt it



Ill tell you what your nation tells the world on a daily basis....

"They were non state actors"....
so unless the Govt initiated this attack, refrain from speaking ill of our Govt or our political structure....


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## scrumpy

Do we know if the flower pot was broken in anger? Damn Bharatis, what did the flower pot do to deserve this?


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## Subramanian

Zaki said:


> lol,
> Then why Hindu's aren't being given any of such subsidy?
> 
> Does the Indian Government has any fear of revolution/insurgency from the Muslim population so that they are giving them extra benefits?
> 
> If that is correct, I find lack of insecurity here by the GoI



it is not out of fear but out of need for minority votebank.


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## LaBong

scrumpy said:


> Ok guys. Lets put this into perspective.
> 
> *She uses her right to free speech and says something which is inflammatory to a bunch of people. A group of women claim their right to peaceful gathering and gather outside her house. In the process 2 flower pots were broken.
> 
> And these 2 incidents highlight all that is wrong with the Indian democracy... exactly how??*
> 
> Did any one make threats to kill one another?
> Was anyone other then the 2 flowerpots hurt in this interaction?
> 
> I am rather proud of these 2 group of extremists who have exercised their rights rather peacefully. Ok the flower pots may not agree with me.




It's not new, Arundhuti has always been acted like an extremist when the freedom of speech is applied to her.

Now id some people show their disappointment outside her house it becomes an attack to her, what hypocrisy!


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Indians have a problem they just kill the ppl who speak out the truth

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## StingRoy

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Indians have a problem they just kill the ppl who speak out the truth



Oh common... that was a poorly made statement.

She had the freedom to speak against the country's general opinion... and the people who protested had the freedom to raise their voice against it... 
If you are concerned about the damage to the gamlaas and the plant... I am with you... why let the poor plant to die for this cause... not worth it


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## karan.1970

penumbra said:


> Giving Arundhati the freedom would show how secular and tolerant Indian people are. But such incidents highlight the fact that the current India is far from that.



There are no curbs from govt on Ms Roy. However if some people take exception to her speech and break some pots outside her house, I actually think thats a positive for democracy

btw, secularism and religion has nothing to do with Ms Roy or this incident. Religion doesnt define everything in India

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## karan.1970

scrumpy said:


> Ok guys. Lets put this into perspective.
> 
> She uses her right to free speech and says something which is inflammatory to a bunch of people. A group of women claim their right to peaceful gathering and gather outside her house. In the process 2 flower pots were broken.
> 
> And these 2 incidents highlight all that is wrong with the Indian democracy... exactly how??
> 
> Did any one make threats to kill one another?
> Was anyone other then the 2 flowerpots hurt in this interaction?
> 
> *I am rather proud of these 2 group of extremists who have exercised their rights rather peacefullyr. Ok the flower pots may not agree with me.*



And we all know what happens when 2 groups of extremists dont exercise their rights peacefully. The most stark and recent example being Karachi. Thats life threatning situation.. and not only for the pots.


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## LaBong

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Indians have a problem they just kill the ppl who speak out the truth



I know you only meant to say kill the plant! I even thanked you for that, see!


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Dance said:


> Yeah its pretty obvious the worlds biggest "democracy" cannot handle her



Our democratic Govt already handled her.

You are ignoring the fact when she gave her speech(in the capital,Delhi) she was given Govt protection.

Besides,how do acts of certain Right-wing extremists become synonymous with _worlds biggest "democracy"_ ? By that logic i can pick a lot of synonyms for Pakistan.

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## Subramanian

i dont hold gandhi and nehru in high esteem,especially nehru.


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## Ganguly

Arundhati is a good writer and I think if she wants to take on a role as a political or social commentator she is something of a misfit. Her views will never be accepted or even considered by the majority of Indians. I think she should stand for an election and get feedback from the masses before making statement in such sensitive areas. However, she also has quite a large international audience - their opinion of her is quite different. There is a saying "fools rush in where angels fear to tread." to say what she said in India, was definitely foolish. She should have said it in the south of France - and then stayed there permanently.


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## Bang Galore

Aashiq said:


> Poor woman. She says the truth and stands up for what she believes in but in return she has to face life threatening situations.



*Hello ??* *Reality check urgently needed!* You are a fine one to talk considering that a broken flower pot would be considered life threatening in your country only if it was packed with C4.

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## Pagla Dashu

penumbra said:


> Giving Arundhati the freedom would show how secular and tolerant Indian people are. But such incidents highlight the fact that the current India is far from that.


What is sauce for goose, is sauce for gander as well. Just as Ms Roy has freedom of speech to speak her mind, her opponents also have the same freedom of speech to oppose her. If you can't take it, don't speak it. If you speak it, be ready to to take it as well. 

PS: What has secularism got to do with this current incident?


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## LaBong

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/78284-algebra-infinite-fundamentalism.html

^Quoting from the above article. 

And the final characteristic of the fundamentalist is that he/she will have two standards&#8212;one for the self and one for everyone else.

While the Sangh Parivar does not seem to have come to a final decision over whether or not it is anti-national and suicidal to question the police, Arnab Goswami, anchorperson of Times Now television, has stepped up to the plate. He has taken to naming, demonizing, and openly heckling people who have dared to question the integrity of the police and armed forces.



> My name and the name of the well-known lawyer Prashant Bhushan have come up several times. At one point, while interviewing a former police officer, Arnab Goswami turned to the camera: &#8220;Arundhati Roy and Prashant Bhushan,&#8221; he said. &#8220;I hope you are watching this. We think you are disgusting.&#8221;
> 
> For a TV anchor to do this in an atmosphere as charged and as frenzied as the one that prevails today amounts to incitement, as well as threat, and would probably in different circumstances have cost a journalist his or her job.


[link]

*So let&#8217;s get this straight Ms. Roy. According to you, calling you &#8220;disgusting&#8221; is sufficient reason for a journalist to lose his job. What&#8217;s Goswami&#8217;s crime here? Finding you disgusting? Expressing his opinion?*

Well Ms. Roy, you regularly call the Indian government several uncomplimentary things, to put it politely. You say that Kashmir should be given independence. So if we go by your line of reasoning about Mr. Goswami, what if some Indians start saying that your advocacy of the cessation of an integral part of India should be considered a &#8220;threat&#8221;, an incitement for the more violent &#8220;freedom-fighters&#8221;, reason enough to cost you your freedom ?

If people actually did that, then you would be on TV shouting how India is characterized by a tendency to &#8220;criminalize liberal space&#8221;. Which in any case you do, even though noone in India would deny you your right to speak for Kashmiri independence. After all we are not the country of the &#8220;oppressed&#8221;&#8212;Pakistan or China for example.

But even a champion of free speech and dissent like you draws a line when free speech becomes too much. When it is directed at you.

As to openly heckling people who disagree with your point of view, let me quote from one of Ms. Roy&#8217;s own interviews if only to show things are done the &#8220;Arundhati&#8221; way.



> He (Ramachandra Guha)&#8217;s become like a stalker who shows up at my doorstep every other Sunday. Some days he comes alone. Some days he brings his friends and family, they all chant and stamp&#8230; It&#8217;s an angry little cottage industry that seems to have sprung up around me. Like a bunch of keening god-squadders, they link hands to keep their courage up and egg each other on. [link]



Again, Ms. Roy is free to be vitriolic about Ramachandra Guha and his &#8220;smug friends&#8221;. *But they, and anyone who is not impressed with Ms. Roy, should also be free to express their opinions and Ms. Roy should be man enough to take it without crying &#8220;Look look they are threatening me&#8221; as if calling someone &#8220;disgusting&#8221; is a threat. *

---- *** ----

Sorry Mrs Ray, freedom of speech is a two way street and you, of all, should not complain being at the receiving end of it.

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## KS

karan.1970 said:


> Freedom of expression taken to extreme.. But I for one am not complaining..





Zaki said:


> *we have an extremist here *



Make that "Two" including me 

Now let her go to her soulmates,the Maoists and start living with them in the Jungle.

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## Pagla Dashu

^^ In a recent interview on NDTV, Barkha Dutt asked Ramchandra Guha what he thought of Ms Roy, '' Intellectual or scholar ?''. Guha replied, "Neither"

PS: It was addressed to Abir's post.

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## Pagla Dashu

Fireurimagination said:


> Occupied state of Jammu and Kashmir I guess


I find it a little amusing. I understand that they want to imply that Indian administered Kashmir is 'occupied', but strangely enough they choose to mention the entire _State_ of Jammu and Kashmir, which according to UN maps, is the name of the region that includes Gilgit-Baltistan and Hunza provinces, as occupied. Given that a large part of this state of Jammu and Kashmir is actually under Pakistan's control, not to mention the Chinese as well, this is tantamount to admitting, albeit unwittingly, that even their country is 'occupying' the state. 

Freudian slip?

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## KS

Vassnti said:


> The "K" word comes out and people start foaming at the mouth over who owns it
> 
> I always thought, though i am obviously in the minority* that Kashmir doesnt belong to either India or Pakistan but belongs to the Kashmiri's*



Let me correct the above statement for you,
*
Valley Muslims may/may not belong to India,but the Valley belongs to the Union of India.*

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## paritosh

Gentle Typhoon said:


> 'Our' if you meant independence from British.
> 
> List of freedom fighters -
> Indian independence activists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> I dont like Nehru, Gandhi.
> 
> Hehe azzhole is nothing abuse, In my state Gandhi = D1ck, both bald on top. Masturbation = Beating Gandhi, We ask in Punjabi 'Tu Gandhi kutna chhad ta?' English - (Have you stopped beating your Gandhi?) Hindi/Urdu - 'Muth Marni Chod di kya?'



yess...the lack of hair on his head..was the exact reason we have him on our currency notes...
we can even have a d!ck on them notes can't we?
father of the nation...._the d!ck_...eh?


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## Areesh

Gentle Typhoon said:


> 'Our' if you meant independence from British.
> 
> List of freedom fighters -
> Indian independence activists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> I dont like Nehru, Gandhi.
> 
> Hehe azzhole is nothing abuse, In my state Gandhi = D1ck, both bald on top. Masturbation = Beating Gandhi, We ask in Punjabi 'Tu Gandhi kutna chhad ta?' English - (Have you stopped beating your Gandhi?) Hindi/Urdu - 'Muth Marni Chod di kya?'



My oh my. Now that's too much for a national hero. Wonder how it can be consider as a criticism.


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## MYSTIC

Areesh said:


> My oh my. Now that's too much for a national hero. Wonder how it can be consider as a criticism.



National hero for some, while villain for many. There decisions are open to criticism. I believe it is better to criticize than to blindly believe what others say. But I agree such language should not be used to address people who fought for our independence.


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## Areesh

MYSTIC said:


> National hero for some, while villain for many. There decisions are open to criticism. I believe it is better to criticize than to blindly believe what others say. But I agree such language should not be used to address people who fought for our independence.



The words I quoted don't fall under the category of criticism.


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## Urbanized Greyhound

Nehru for all his virtues and visions was not suited as the PM of a country which had just gained independence with her economy and military in shambles , 
As a man ....kind and compassionate , trusting as he was , he could have been loved and idolized by millions but the country needed a strong leader at that point, more than someone who lived in his own ideal world as the article says 

"*Nehru kept talking about United Nations , Russsia etc* " 

Overall he failed miserably in both effective governance and foreign policy , Sarder Patel on the other hand was a practical ,blunt personality who minced no words in safeguarding India's interests ......I wonder what would have happened had Subhash Chandra Bose curbed his revolutionary instincts to remain in the Congress, reach an understanding with Gandhi but then he was too individual for it .......

Bose with his ideas of aggressive industrialization and foreign policy would have governed India considerably better than the congress rule under Nehru for the first two decades....


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## twoplustwoisfour

Areesh said:


> The words I quoted don't fall under the category of criticism.



Then I guess our citizen are open to more public scrutiny than your standards.

In India, we have freedom of speech and a culture of tolerance towards diverse views. If we can allow Mr. Geelani to abuse the state in it's capital, then airing views on an online forum on deceased personnel is nothing.


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## Rajkumar

Areesh said:


> The words I quoted don't fall under the category of criticism.



actually you have no idea, there are 100s of non veg jokes about gandhi nehru and indira and lots of politicians


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## WHF

I see so much happiness in pak for wat ever Arundathi Roy has to say..pakistanis feel as if they have won the war or as if its the supreme courts verdict..Well sorry to break ur bubble not only arundathi roy even if UN cheif /USA president says the likes of AR *we dont care*..Kasmir's fate is n our hands, that bloody peice of land is ours, u dont like my land then *GET OUT*


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## WHF

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Indians have a problem they just kill the ppl who speak out the truth



Oh yeah all over the world only the muslims and their supporters speak the truth the rest all is false..Even the holocaust is a drama,heck mumbai 26/11 is drama,sep 11 is a drama, infiltration is drama..If ever something is true then all the crap said by any muslim/supporter is true..


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## WHF

Y2A said:


> I was expecting a saner reply, yeah hard to come buy when one is surrounded by insane, unbalanced traditional mind set, Kashmir is for people of Kashmir whats lady ghandi said is irrelevant.
> 
> its just like when you were failed to pass your fifth grade exams because you came here all blazing, waving saffron flag hoping to get an award of bravery on "word war" congress could feel happy on this but your parents will defiantly get disappointed as they would have ideally want you to focus more on your studies, pass your high school son...leave these issues for educated people to address, its just too much for may be a fifty year old fifht grade student to think about.



Ohhhhhhhh comon till a decade back leaders would formmulate ides on how to defeat IA and capture kashmir by force not only kashmir byt fly the green flag on new delhi, but yeah as the bubble has been broken now u guys want to be on the negotiating table and talk of humanity and peace...

Where was humanity when 4 lakh pandits were driven away from their homes??where wa umanity when bloody in humane tribals raided and raped kashmiris??whare was humanity when sand dwellers destroyed the sub continent's culture and heritage.Muslims leaders are multi faced ,from israel to kashmir u guys only talk of peace whn u lose all the wars..

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## WHF

Y2A said:


> INDIA'S WAR ON PEOPLE - Gautam Navlakha & Arundhati Roy, Mumbai, June 2, 2010
> 
> YouTube - Pt. 8 of 18 - INDIA'S WAR ON PEOPLE - Gautam Navlakha & Arundhati Roy, Mumbai, June 2, 2010



Gautam navlakha a maoist advocate AR a staunch communist and maoist ideoligist and supporter talkng of democrasy??

heck so the communists will teach the world about democrasy??

Guys this is the reason why pakistan is in a mess..U ppl always follow the wrong example.


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## WHF

Y2A said:


> Result of too much bad TV, bollywood, hollywood and now world wrestling entertainment, you didn't get it right either, its entairment on TV son, doesn't happen in real world, now don't quote rujni kant and make an attempt get satisfied.



There is nothing rajni kant/hollywood in it..
Offtopic:Lolz last tym i checked the same hollywood that the pak ppl hate saved a few haters in NWFP floods..

Ontopic :*If pakistan wants kashmir AR/articles/UN willl not earn it for u.The simple solution is that u guys have faith on ur mighty allah and attack us Non beleivers..If God is with u guys as u claim then not only kashmir whole of india will be under ur feet..*


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Kashmiris demanding only right to self-determination: Gilani​*
Srinagar, November 02 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Gilani has said that the Kashmiris are only demanding their right to self-determination promised to them by India.

Syed Ali Gilani in a statement issued in Srinagar said that the ongoing liberation movement had started to receive support from the Indian civil society. He said that even Indian Home Minister, P Chidambaram, and puppet Chief Minister of occupied Kashmir, Omar Abdullah, intentionally or unintentionally, had accepted some facts regarding the Kashmir dispute.

To mark the anniversary of massacre of Muslims in 1947 in Jammu, the veteran leader announced that the upcoming week would be commemorated as Martyrdom Week and urged the people to make the civil curfew call from November 6 successful. He said that through emails, Kashmiris should impress upon the US President, Barack Obama that peace would continue to elude South Asia and the threat of the war between nuclear powers, India and Pakistan, will linger on till the resolution of the Kashmir dispute, he said.

Syed Ali Gilani has called off Friday strike in view of Diwali. He said, Islam teaches us to respect sentiments of other communities. The Hindus and Sikhs are part and parcel of our society and we, from the core of our heart, respect their sentiments.

Kashmiris demanding only right to self-determination: Gilani | Kashmir Media Service

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## S_O_C_O_M

*Azadi: Kashmirs rallying cry​*
By Shireen M Mazari | Published: November 3, 2010 

Kashmir brings out the worst in the Indian state and its mainstream media; but it is also bringing out the best on some Indian human rights groups, courageous individuals and other subjugated minorities. Of course, Arundhati Roy is, perhaps, the most visible symbol of an individual speaking the language of truth in support of the right of the Kashmiri people to self-determination and of suffering as a consequence. It is a shame that our human rights activists are so silent on the Indian states abuse of human rights in Occupied Kashmir. Lessons on conviction can certainly be learned from Roy! 
Her family and home were targeted on Sunday (October 31) morning by a fanatical mob that broke into her house and threatened to teach her a lesson because of her views on Kashmir. Interestingly, the media was all in place to cover this mob terror simply because Roy had stated that Kashmir was never a part of India and the Indian government had recognised it as a disputed territory taking it to the UN under Chapter VI of the Charter. According to Roy, part of the campaign of terror against her was simply to divert attention away from the debate on Hindu terror that was centres-tage because a senior RSS activist Indresh Kumar had been named in connection with the Ajmer Sharif bomb blast.
Clearly, Roy has touched a raw nerve within mainstream India and exposed the myth of Indian tolerance and democracy on which it harps ad nauseam. Obama may seek to avoid using the K word on his trip to India  which has a massive propagandist agenda beginning with the Taj meeting and statement  and Pakistan may continue to sustain a confused official stance on Kashmir, but the Kashmiris themselves with their valiant struggle are beginning to awaken the Indian conscience on their inalienable right to self-determination. In this process, Pakistan will get sidelined by default as Indian citizens, especially other dispossessed minorities and human rights activists, move their state to fulfil the promises made to the Kashmiris by Nehru and the UNSC resolutions. 
In fact, if developments continue in this fashion and Pakistan refuses to play its due role in supporting the Kashmiris right to self-determination, it will become irrelevant in the Kashmir equation, as the Kashmiris struggle for self-determination is centred on the call for Azadi. A reflection of this was the convention on Kashmir that was held in New Delhi, on October 21, with the straightforward title: Kashmir - Azadi the Only Way. It was organised by the Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners (CRPP). It was not just the participants, who were interesting, but the manner in which the issue was discussed with the underlying premise being that the Kashmiris must be given their right of self-determination. The repression and duplicity of the Indian state not just towards the Kashmiris, but also towards its other minorities. The Final Report is an amazing document  a testament to people committed to truth and justice. For instance, Najib Mubarki, Assistant Editor of the Economic Times, talked about how the Indian media misrepresented the Kashmiri popular movement by claiming that the protests were only by Muslims demanding a theocratic state. He pointed out that even though the majority of Kashmiris were Muslims, the peoples struggle was for their inalienable and legitimate political rights. 


Azadi: Kashmirs rallying cry | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## KS

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Syed Ali Gilani has called off Friday strike in view of Diwali. He said, &#8220;Islam teaches us to respect sentiments of other communities. *The Hindus and Sikhs are part and parcel of our society* and we, from the core of our heart, respect their sentiments.&#8221;



If they are part and parcel of your society,then *why they were "parceled" out of Kashmir* Valley in the 90s and all their belongings/properties divided amongst the Muslims and why the remaining Hindus/Sikhs have to get "permission" to celebrate Deepavali. ??

Bloody Hypocrite..Does he think the people are fools to be taken for a ride


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## UnitedPak

Karthic Sri said:


> If they are part and parcel of your society,then *why they were "parceled" out of Kashmir* Valley in the 90s and all their belongings/properties divided amongst the Muslims and why the remaining Hindus/Sikhs have to get "permission" to celebrate Deepavali. ??
> 
> Bloody Hypocrite..Does he think the people are fools to be taken for a ride



Could you explain the "permission" part? I might have misunderstood but Hindus and Sikhs asked Gilani to postpone* the strike* as it would interfere with Dewali, which he did. He sounds like a reasonable guy who looks out for minorities, which is more than what I can say for the Indian government regarding Kashmiri Muslims.

Not that your whining will matter.* Kashmiri Muslims have spoken*. This was only made possible after 63 years of ignoring them. Focus on not repeating the same mistake elsewhere.

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## KS

UnitedPak said:


> Could you explain the "permission" part? I might have misunderstood but Hindus and Sikhs asked Gilani to postpone* the strike* as it would interfere with Dewali, which he did. He sounds like a reasonable guy who looks out for minorities, which is more than what I can say for the Indian government regarding Kashmiri Muslims.



Yes sir,with all respect you plainly mis-understood.

If a strike happens on Deepavali how will the Hindus/Sikhs celebrate Deepavali.There is definitely a chance of communal violence with anti-India Valley Muslims on one side and pro-India Hindus/Sikhs on another side.

So automatically Hindus/Sikhs being in the minority have no other option but to cancel their celebrations.So this is justa polished term of "permitting" them to celebrate.



UnitedPak said:


> Not that your whining will matter.* Kashmiri Muslims have spoken*. This was only made possible after 63 years of ignoring them. Focus on not repeating the same mistake elsewhere.



Fine whatever,no one needs to tell me who holds the bigger stick in Kashmir.If you think in a democracy my "whining" doesnt matter,think again slowly.


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## indushek

UnitedPak said:


> Could you explain the "permission" part? I might have misunderstood but Hindus and Sikhs asked Gilani to postpone* the strike* as it would interfere with Dewali, which he did. He sounds like a reasonable guy who looks out for minorities, which is more than what I can say for the Indian government regarding Kashmiri Muslims.
> 
> Not that your whining will matter.* Kashmiri Muslims have spoken*. This was only made possible after 63 years of ignoring them. Focus on not repeating the same mistake elsewhere.



I don't think the permission part is so inconcievable, or are you really unable to understand. In kashmir anti India and anti Hindu sentiment is wide spread, there are many horror stories. The forceful eviction of Kashmiri Pandits and other Hindu Communities is living testament of this. 

It is another thing that power hungry sick b@$tards of successive govt have ignored this conveniently because they are from the majority community of this country and do not form part of their "secular" bunch of public.

Nobody talks about kashmiri hindus. Kashmiri muslims have already spoken long time back when they threw out hindus, saying what kind of a bunch they are. All they want to do is establish an Islamic Caliphate here. Geelani is a two faced bigot, the only reason he postponed his whatever plans at the time of diwali was to score some bownie points. These were the same people who kept the militants in their home and supplied food and water and sent their children across for "training".


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## UnitedPak

Karthic Sri said:


> Yes sir,with all respect you plainly mis-understood.
> 
> If a strike happens on Deepavali how will the Hindus/Sikhs celebrate Deepavali.There is definitely a chance of communal violence with anti-India Valley Muslims on one side and pro-India Hindus/Sikhs on another side.
> 
> So automatically Hindus/Sikhs being in the minority have no other option but to cancel their celebrations.So this is justa polished term of "permitting" them to celebrate.



*
Syed Ali Gilani has called off Friday strike in view of Diwali. He said, Islam teaches us to respect sentiments of other communities. The Hindus and Sikhs are part and parcel of our society and we, from the core of our heart, respect their sentiments.*
Kashmiris demanding only right to self-determination: Gilani | Kashmir Media Service

Seems I was not mistaken. Silly of me to expect a rational explanation. My bad.



> Fine whatever,no one needs to tell me who holds the bigger stick in Kashmir.If you think in a democracy my "whining" doesnt matter,think again slowly.



Real democracies dont need sticks and in a real democracy local voices would be more important than your non-local whining. But soon you wont have this problem at all.


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## KS

UnitedPak said:


> *
> Syed Ali Gilani has called off Friday strike in view of Diwali. He said, &#8220;Islam teaches us to respect sentiments of other communities. The Hindus and Sikhs are part and parcel of our society and we, from the core of our heart, respect their sentiments.&#8221;*
> Kashmiris demanding only right to self-determination: Gilani | Kashmir Media Service
> 
> Seems I was not mistaken. Silly of me to expect a rational explanation. My bad.



My second post in the thread was specifically for this part of BS.



> If they are part and parcel of your society,then *why they were "parceled" out of Kashmir Valley in the 90s and all their belongings/properties divided amongst the Muslims* and why the remaining Hindus/Sikhs have to get "permission" to celebrate Deepavali. ??



It was good that you left the first and the important part of the post and chose to concentrate on the other part.



UnitedPak said:


> Real democracies dont need sticks and in a real democracy local voices would be more important than your non-local whining. *But soon you wont have this problem at all.*



Real democracies also dont allow secession or compromising on territorial integrity.Well if you want to think otherwise,who am I to stop you,considering its impact on the existing ground realities.


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## fast and furious

Could you explain the "permission" part? I might have misunderstood but Hindus and Sikhs asked Gilani to postpone the strike as it would interfere with Dewali, which he did. He sounds like a reasonable guy who* looks out for minorities, which is more than what I can say for the Indian government regarding Kashmiri Muslims.*


Sir, would you classify School going kids as majority or minority.
Hope you remember he asked parents not to send their kids to school.

Politics aside please,know the man before calling him reasonable.

*Not that your whining will matter. Kashmiri Muslims have spoken. This was only made possible after 63 years of ignoring them. Focus on not repeating the same mistake elsewhere. *

Correct sir, the problem is more of governance ,than politics the geelani kinds play.


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## UnitedPak

indushek said:


> I don't think the permission part is so inconcievable, or are you really unable to understand. In kashmir anti India and anti Hindu sentiment is wide spread, there are many horror stories. The forceful eviction of Kashmiri Pandits and other Hindu Communities is living testament of this.
> 
> It is another thing that power hungry sick b@$tards of successive govt have ignored this conveniently because they are from the majority community of this country and do not form part of their "secular" bunch of public.
> 
> Nobody talks about kashmiri hindus. Kashmiri muslims have already spoken long time back when they threw out hindus, saying what kind of a bunch they are. All they want to do is establish an Islamic Caliphate here. Geelani is a two faced bigot, the only reason he postponed his whatever plans at the time of diwali was to score some bownie points. These were the same people who kept the militants in their home and supplied food and water and sent their children across for "training".



Im just to take your word that Gilani hates secularism and supports a caliphate when everything he says suggests otherwise? At least provide proof of the supposed evilness.

Who talks about Kashmir valley and Jammu Muslims in Pakistan. Will you also be their champion?


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## KS

UnitedPak said:


> Im just to take your word that Gilani hates secularism and supports a caliphate when everything he says suggests otherwise? *At least provide proof of the supposed evilness.*



Thats childs play:

Geelani rejects any unity with those advocating secularism

Islam guiding force of Kashmiris? struggle: Geelani

Tehreek-e-Hurriyat jammu kashmir

It doesnt need rocket science to understand how Sharia will affect the minorities.


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## UnitedPak

Karthic Sri said:


> Real democracies also dont allow secession or compromising on territorial integrity.Well if you want to think otherwise,who am I to stop you,considering its impact on the existing ground realities.



Well you are in luck because the rest of the world does not consider Kashmir an integral part of India. Seems our commitment to democracy and promises to Kashmiri people will be honoured after all. This should be a proud moment for the Indian people, that the first promise as a nation is finally to be honoured. Better late than never.


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## justanobserver

UnitedPak said:


> Im just to take your word that Gilani hates secularism and supports a caliphate when everything he says suggests otherwise? At least provide proof of the supposed evilness.


Have you been sleeping, if yes then read this thread

He clearly states that :



> "I admit that there are weaknesses in Pakistan, but these can be addressed. India has a secular system, which we can under no condition accept."



So much for Kashmiriyat eh?


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## KS

UnitedPak said:


> Well you are in luck because the rest of the world does not consider Kashmir an integral part of India. Seems our commitment to democracy and promises to Kashmiri people will be honoured after all. This should be a proud moment for the Indian people, that the first promise as a nation is finally to be honoured. Better late than never.



Fine. Lets see which nation in the world has the guts to "advise" India or has the means to forcefully implement the UN resolutions especially in the future.Till then India has nothing to prove to anyone.


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## justanobserver

^
No point arguing. Every time they'll throw in "oh it's disputed" "see the rest of the world and the UN supports us !"

Talk about clutching at straws


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## indushek

UnitedPak said:


> Im just to take your word that Gilani hates secularism and supports a caliphate when everything he says suggests otherwise? At least provide proof of the supposed evilness.
> 
> Who talks about Kashmir valley and Jammu Muslims in Pakistan. Will you also be their champion?



Regarding karthic has already helped me, leaving that aside i cannot understand the next part. Are you speaking of the region under ur country's controland the muslims there?? or am i mis undestanding??


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## WHF

UnitedPak said:


> *
> Syed Ali Gilani has called off Friday strike in view of Diwali. He said, Islam teaches us to respect sentiments of other communities. The Hindus and Sikhs are part and parcel of our society and we, from the core of our heart, respect their sentiments.*
> Kashmiris demanding only right to self-determination: Gilani | Kashmir Media Service.



See what islam teaches u is upto u,im not interested until u take a sword in ur hand and slit a kaffir's head in the name of islam.I am least bothered on how good/bad islam is.I only see islam on how it effects me,and i have seem how good is isalm in 1989 in the valley.If islam effects me negatively it is muslims fault.So there is no need in showcasting of how gr8 islam is first try and show ppl that alteast islam is not harmful to ppl(both muslims and non muslims).


UnitedPak said:


> Seems I was not mistaken. Silly of me to expect a rational explanation. My bad.
> 
> Real democracies dont need sticks and in a real democracy local voices would be more important than your non-local whining. But soon you wont have this problem at all.



U want a rational answer??Ok so first go and question that irrational brain who on the first place declared a strike chart on the day of diwali..The day of diwali is known well in advance and is a public holiday too so there is no question of ignorance.
Secondly why should geelani wait until minority groups come and request him to rexal the strke on the day of diwali??By imposing a strike on diwali that sick scum was just trying to show who is the boss in srinagar..But in kashmir the boss is *Indian Army*

And yes about democrasy try and show some democrasy in balouch and NWFP.Atleast india doesnot create conspirasy theories like sindistan and kill political opponents.
And about the problem yes soon we wont have that coz these scum bags will be shown the door to hell with their 72 virgins waiting for them.

Happy Diwali !!!


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## Spring Onion

WHF said:


> S.I only see islam on how it effects me,and i have seem how good is isalm in 1989 in the valley.If islam effects me negatively it is muslims fault.So there is no need in showcasting of how gr8 islam is first try and show ppl that alteast islam is not harmful to ppl(both muslims and non muslims).



Nice try but the only one in Kashmir Occupied by India, if anyone has affected everyone there is the Invader Indians and your army.

Get out of Kashmir and everyone will be in peace.




> U want a rational answer??Ok so first go and question that irrational brain who on the first place declared a strike chart on the day of diwali..The day of diwali is known well in advance and is a public holiday too so there is no question of ignorance.
> Secondly why should geelani wait until minority groups come and request him to rexal the strke on the day of diwali??By imposing a strike on diwali that sick scum was just trying to show who is the boss in srinagar



when the Indian army is killing Muslim Kashmiris on even their festivals like Eid and when Indian army is killing them and blocking all food supplies to Kashmir Valley in Holy Month of Ramadan then why cant a Kashmiri leader call for a strike that coincidentally falls on dewali.

And oh BTW you are not supposed to dance on valley roads on dewali. The function can very much be celebrated at your place and you can bow down to your bhagwan nobody is stopping you.

Its good of Gilani to respect Hindus' festival and postponed otherwise keeping in view the Indian barbarism you deserve no such gestures at all.





> ..But in kashmir the boss is *Indian Army*




Yeah we know thats why massacre of innocent Kashmiris in their own country Kashmir is going on at the hands of invader Indians.




> And yes about democrasy try and show some democrasy in balouch and NWFP.Atleast india doesnot create conspirasy theories like sindistan and kill political opponents.



 another ignorant bharti talking about NWFP, Sindh, Balochistan oh well 




> And about the problem yes soon we wont have that coz these scum bags will be shown the door to hell with their 72 virgins waiting for them.
> 
> Happy Diwali !!!



 come again with second janam philosophy

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## WHF

Jana said:


> Nice try but the only one in Kashmir Occupied by India, if anyone has affected everyone there is the Invader Indians and your army.
> 
> Get out of Kashmir and everyone will be in peace.


Oh so in 1989 indian army killed raped and massacared Kashmiri Pandits.Ok so KP's are the invaders cool.so a person is to be decided an invader or native on the basis of religion??so dear jana vacate pakistan and go away to deserts of saudi/mongolia..


Jana said:


> when the Indian army is killing Muslim Kashmiris on even their festivals like Eid and when Indian army is killing them and blocking all food supplies to Kashmir Valley in Holy Month of Ramadan then why cant a Kashmiri leader call for a strike that coincidentally falls on dewali.



IA doesnot kill kashmiri Muslims.It kills the seperatists protestors.I bet ill also be shot if if were to be in those rallies.

And as far as blocking supplies to kashmir during amarnath strike ,the whole world know the reason that at first fanatic kashmiri muslims started the process by agitating against temple land.So if kashmiris deny the jammuities their religious rites why would jammuites respect kashmiris religiuos rites??



Jana said:


> *And oh BTW you are not supposed to dance on valley roads on dewali. The function can very much be celebrated at your place and you can bow down to your bhagwan nobody is stopping you.*



Who the sh!t are u to tell me what to do on my festivals??whether i dance or do anything who the heck are u to tell me.
*Madam ye jizya raaj nahi raha ab,ab atadiyan nikaal ke table par rakh detey hein hum*


Jana said:


> Its good of Gilani to respect Hindus' festival and postponed otherwise keeping in view the Indian barbarism you deserve no such gestures at all.


It is good that the GOv india is still letting geelani and co live coz after the brutalities done on other faiths kashmiri muslims donot deserve to live.


Jana said:


> Yeah we know thats why massacre of innocent Kashmiris in their own country Kashmir is going on at the hands of invader Indians.


Oh yeah so all ur martial race ,allah hamarey saath hein,ek musalmaan dus hindu baraabar bubles bursted.Bahut khujlee hein naa tum logoko ladne ki ab lado naa pairo ke beech dum liye bhaag kyon jaatey hein aapke jihaadi??


> another ignorant bharti talking about NWFP, Sindh, Balochistan oh well


Oh yeah im all ignorant i donot know anything..The all intelligent is Jana the gr8 self intellectual/jurnalist..But 1 min how do u know about kashmir app apne din aur RAATH kasmir mein gujaarthi hein kyaa??


> come again with second janam philosophy


Alteast men in my community donot wrap a vest bomb and killl non muslims to full fill his pivert dreams of sleeping with 72 virgins in hell with his boss.BTW wat consolation prizes do lady scucide bombers get??


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## dabong1

WHF said:


> Oh so in 1989 indian army killed raped and massacared Kashmiri Pandits.Ok so KP's are the invaders cool.so a person is to be decided an invader or native on the basis of religion??so dear jana vacate pakistan and go away to deserts of saudi/mongolia..



No...... the indian army never killed and raped the Kashmiri Pandits.....they killed and raped the muslims kashmiris and made one and half million into refugees.



WHF said:


> IA doesnot kill kashmiri Muslims.It kills the seperatists protestors.I bet ill also be shot if if were to be in those rallies.



And the freedom fighters only kill those that support the indian armys occupation.



WHF said:


> And as far as blocking supplies to kashmir during amarnath strike ,the whole world know the reason that at first fanatic kashmiri muslims started the process by agitating against temple land.So if kashmiris deny the jammuities their religious rites why would jammuites respect kashmiris religiuos rites??



You tried to chop a piece of kashmir off......but failed.





WHF said:


> It is good that the GOv india is still letting geelani and co live coz after the brutalities done on other faiths kashmiri muslims donot deserve to live.



At least you show yout true colours.......




WHF said:


> Oh yeah im all ignorant i donot know anything..The all intelligent is Jnan the gr8 self intellectual/jurnalist..But 1 min how do u know about kashmir app apne din aur RAATH kasmir mein gujaarthi hein kyaa??



Let me guess......you spend nights and nights in kashmir and know more about it then the people that live there.



WHF said:


> Alteast men in my community donot wrap a vest bomb and killl non muslims to full fill his pivert dreams of sleeping with 72 virgins in hell with his boss.



Well we learnt from your hindu brothers in sri lanka about suicide bombings.



WHF said:


> BTW wat consolation prizes do lady scucide bombers get??



The same prize the lady that blew up rajiv gandhi gets


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## para-site

Why you people are spoiling the mood for diwali celebrations yaar......leave these discussions for a day or two.....

BTW happy DIWALI to all Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, Buddhists, Jains......may the sparkling lights bring peace and prosperity........to everyone....enjoy.....

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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

After hardline Hurriyat Conference chairman Syed Ali Shah Geelani was attacked in a seminar at New Delhi on October 21, it was the turn of Democratic Freedom Party (DFP) chairman Shabir Shah to face the heat from youth activists of Hindu extremist parties here on Thursday. Shah, who was released from Kot Bhalwal jail on Wednesday after the gap of two years, was addressing a press conference when few Bharatiya Janta Yuva Morcha and Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) activists entered the conference hall in a hotel and tried to beat Shah.

Shouting slogans against Shah and other separatists, these activists managed to assemble inside the hotel and attacked Shah who stayed in the conference hall with help of his friends and remained unhurt.

&#8220;It was an assassination attempt which the vibrant people of Jammu irrespective of their religion, who were with me, foiled. It was a pre-planned attack having the backing of government. Government first allowed the protestors to enter the hotel and then made a mockery of things when police took them away,&#8221; Shah told Hindustan Times, after the incident.

&#8220;I don&#8217;t care for these attempts and this will not hold me back to say truth. It is becoming a trend in whole India to attack those who speak truth. Such people attacked Arundhati Roy and Gautam Navlakha who speak truth,&#8221; said Shah, adding that he doesn&#8217;t fear any one except Allah.

&#8220;I don&#8217;t think there is much time left for me and I wish whenever death comes to me I should be on this path only fighting for the cause of people,&#8221; he added.

Shah informed since morning the hotel owner received threats from some people not to allow him to organize the press conference. &#8220;After these threats I decided to hold the press conference on road because I wanted to congratulate people of India on the eve of Diwali. But later without bothering about the consequences hotel owner allowed me to hold the meet inside,&#8221; Shah added.

&#8220;I request people of India to stay by the promise of giving right to self determination to people of J&K, made by first Prime Minister of India Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru in United Nations, like the father of lord Ram did when Ram came back home after spending 14 years of exile,&#8221; Shah said.

The DFP Chairman said that he is the strong supporter of giving the equal rights to people of Jammu and Ladakh of choosing what they want. &#8220;I am against the division of state. We have gone through the pain of division when half a million people got killed on November 6, 7 and 8 in 1947 and we don&#8217;t want to see this happen again,&#8221; Shah added.

Commenting on the United State President Barack Obama&#8217;s visit to India, Shah said, &#8220;We expect him to do mediation to resolve the Kashmir issue as per the aspirations of people but if he can&#8217;t do mediation, he should at least facilitate the tripartite talks between India, Pakistan and people of Kashmir.&#8221;

Talking about the visit of interlocutors to Kashmir headed by veteran journalist Dilip Padgaonkar, DFP chairman said, &#8220;Holding any talks with these interlocutors will not earn anything until the ground for the talks in cleared. We are not against talks but how come we could hold talks when hundreds of people including teenagers and separatist leaders are still languishing behind bars without any charges.&#8221;

&#8220;We first want from India to accept Kashmir issue as an international dispute and release all political prisoners and then we will go for tripartite meaningful talks,&#8221; Shah maintained.

When asked about his meeting with All Party Delegation (APD) members, Shah said, &#8220;I was amazed to know that opposition leaders in Lok Sabha and Rajya Sabha, Sushma Swaraj and Arun Jaitly said that they don&#8217;t have mandate to talk to separatists. I ask them then why did Atal Behari Vajpayee, Jaswant Singh held talks with me. Why K.C. Panth was appointed interlocutor to my home by BJP led NDA government?&#8221;

On the issue of reuniting the Hurriyat Conference, Shah maintained, &#8220;My efforts were and will be to unite both factions of Hurriyat Conference and people fighting for the cause of freedom outside Hurriyat.&#8221;

Maintaining that if demilitarization is done in J&K, Shah said, &#8220;Same practice should also be applied in Azad Kashmir (Pakistan Occupied Kashmir) and in Gilgit Baltistan.&#8221;

Meanwhile, senior DFP leader Maulana Abdullah Tari has said that attack on Shah is state sponsored. &#8220;These attackers on their own could do nothing until they have backing from state,&#8217; Tari added


http://www.hindustantimes.com/Shabir-Shah-attacked-in-Jammu/Article1-622228.aspx


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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

I think for these Kashmiri leaders to give speeches in Jammu is so stupid.

Can't understand why don't they get it that Jammu is pro Indian...they didnt get a lesson even in Amarnath 2008.

Jammu is not Srinagar where you will hear anti-India slogans...this was bound to happen.


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## para-site

I think kashmir is becoming dead issue day by day......only if violence is stopped from both sides can people think of peace in kashmir.....


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## ajtr

jaise ko taisa................................


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## KS

why am I not surprised ??Fool...He must have thought that Jammu is Lal chowk....


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## captonjohn

*No...... the indian army never killed and raped the Kashmiri Pandits.....they killed and raped the muslims kashmiris and made one and half million into refugees.*

Can you give any reliable source and proof for this that Indian army killed muslim kashmiris? And by the way if you talk about **** and murder of muslims then why not to discuss about baloch people? They are also muslims but pakistani army which is a muslim majority is killing their muslim brothers. You tell kashmiri that we are brothers because we are muslims then why in 1948 pakistani army supported and attacked on kashmir and killed thousands of muslims. Don't tell lie that you were not, if you want proof then see UN resolutions whose copy is posted in this forum. 

An invader is invader and he can kill anybody. 

*And the freedom fighters only kill those that support the indian armys occupation.*

Can you tell me how a women who don't even read and write properly can support or help Indian army or spy for indian army? There are several cases in which your muslim terrorists killed and raped muslim woman's and nobody raise any issue on that. What about baloch protest? I can say that pakistani army is continuously killing and raping muslim woman then why don't you see yourself first and then point to others?


*You tried to chop a piece of kashmir off......but failed.*

NOT we tried but you tried to swallow whole kashmir but failed to do so expressing your frustration here. This is well known that in 1948 pakistani army with the help of tribesman attacked on Kashmir and it united with India.




*At least you show yout true colours.......*
Will time tell about our true color man, wait.



*Let me guess......you spend nights and nights in kashmir and know more about it then the people that live there.*
And tell me how many nights you've spend in kashmir? Ohh I forgot you spent more nights then me in the form of terrorist. 


*Well we learnt from your hindu brothers in sri lanka about suicide bombings.*
So finally you accepted that you are a terrorist group because from a terrorist organization like LTTE you can learn only to kill. 



*The same prize the lady that blew up rajiv gandhi gets*
If this is it then wait and see because if you don't wake up now, you'll get the price which LTTE got in recent years and it get vanished from whole Shri Lanka. 

By the way I also believe that you deserve for this price.


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## captonjohn

*please do it,
that will pave her way to get Noble Award by next year

I guarantee, that will become a matter of pride for the Indian public after she gets noble award *

That's the reason why indian government didn't taken any action against her and ignored her. A crazy barking ***** wants some publicity so that she can sell her future books at more price.


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## Indiannn

For most of the Indians,the nation comes first and then the religion.

AR is an exception and got a bashing from the 'Nation loving Indians'.


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## captonjohn

Omar1984 said:


> Only if Muslims again rule india like we did for over 1000 years.



ha ha ha really? Your this comment tells everything about you that how stupid you are. Tell me why muslims should rule India if more than 60% population is non muslim?

Give me a single name of a ruling person in Pakistan which is non muslim. First clean your hands and then come to us. And by the way please stop the taking reference of history 1000 years back because that is history and this is present. 

In india a muslim can be chosen a president of India by democratic process. Can you dare to do that?

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## DesiGuy

*Pakistan incomplete without freedom of Kashmir from India*

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## deckingraj

i am afraid Pakistan will have to remain incomplete for eternity

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

indian people are so extremist i have just realized.......
few hours ago in a post , paksitan , murder of history , mr najmi expressed his views. he is ok , no one has said him any thing and almost all of the paksitani members gave logics but here indians so extremist ....
so extremists they not even ready for logic and kashmir is not part of union of india... correct history here too...................... if paksitani journalists and scholers would be in india at the moment all of them would be resting under earth ................


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

for a muslim religion comes 1st then any thing else .......
he prefer his faith in Islam over evry thing even blood relations. muslim history proves it on many occasions ......................


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## majesticpankaj

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> indian people are so extremist i have just realized.......
> few hours ago in a post , paksitan , murder of history , mr najmi expressed his views. he is ok , no one has said him any thing and almost all of the paksitani members gave logics but here indians so extremist ....
> so extremists they not even ready for logic and kashmir is not part of union of india... correct history here too...................... if paksitani journalists and scholers would be in india at the moment all of them would be resting under earth ................


by your logic, pakistanis are also very extremists because they were supporting arundhati roy ??  see the various threads on roy.


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## scrumpy

^^^^^
REHAN NIAZI FALCON, What are you talking about man??

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

majesticpankaj said:


> by your logic, pakistanis are also very extremists because they were supporting arundhati roy ??  see the various threads on roy.



hahahha.............. we support liberty of truth............ nothing more ..


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## majesticpankaj

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> hahahha.............. we support liberty of truth............ nothing more ..


we did the same in other thread.. u know the thread rehan!!!!


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

scrumpy said:


> ^^^^^
> REHAN NIAZI FALCON, What are you talking about man??



by the way grammer allows to represent things with male gender rather than ,ones or oneself, or female in such case ...............common sense


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## scrumpy

Omar1984 said:


> Only if Muslims again rule india like we did for over 1000 years.



ROFL. I doubt the Moughals identified themselves as Pakistanis.

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## jayron

Omar1984 said:


> *Yes like all Muslim majority regions in South Asia, Kashmir is beautiful Masha'Allah*.



Grow up open your eyes and look around. Masha'Allah shed some light


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

majesticpankaj said:


> we did the same in other thread.. u know the thread rehan!!!!



better read our answers too......... we didn,t give any intention to attack him we rather provided logic and discussed with open heart ....


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

looks u don,t watch our channels ...... here every one express his view whether others like or not ..... u people can,t even imagin.....


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## majesticpankaj

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> better read our answers too......... we didn,t give any intention to attack him we rather provided logic and discussed with open heart ....


so what we did wrong...... we also have provided her liberty.... how can you forget that a few days back a fatwas had been issued against mushraf (former army general, former president) and few were indeed supporting that. now you are giving us lesson !!! i am confused


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

majesticpankaj said:


> so what we did wrong...... we also have provided her liberty.... how can you forget that a few days back a fatwas had been issued against mushraf (former army general, former president) and few were indeed supporting that. now you are giving us lesson !!! i am confused



look read complete news ...... he did not expressed he killed innocents in lal mosque , he killed bughti , he handed over many paksitanis to americans without any investigation in pakistan ...... don,t see things through coloured spectacles ..... there is nothing to confuse in it........ dear i told u , just watch our media channels you will come to know what is freedom of expression..........


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## scrumpy

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> by the way grammer allows to represent things with male gender rather than ,ones or oneself, or female in such case ...............common sense



Obviously *grammer* is your strong point.


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## kashith

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> look read complete news ...... he did not expressed he killed innocents in lal mosque , he killed bughti , he handed over many paksitanis to americans without any investigation in pakistan ...... don,t see things through coloured spectacles ..... there is nothing to confuse in it........ dear i told u , just watch our media channels you will come to know what is freedom of expression..........



Oh Please there was athread called JEW tv for GEO tv, all the channels which are hit either recycle indian SOPS or have shrieking hosts who take the rampage to next level.

In india too you should see the panel on TV , roy has spoken against india many times yet she survives what does this tells you?


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## majesticpankaj

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> look read complete news ...... he did not expressed he killed innocents in lal mosque , he killed bughti , he handed over many paksitanis to americans without any investigation in pakistan ...... don,t see things through coloured spectacles ..... there is nothing to confuse in it........ dear i told u , just watch our media channels you will come to know what is freedom of expression..........


buddy, in india because of only freedom of expression she is able to speak that much. in pakistan, can anybody talks like this?? by the way , see this report for ranking
Reporters Sans Fronti&#232;res

another report
http://www.worldaudit.org/press.htm


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## mr42O

And what did she said which is wrong ?


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## scrumpy

mr42O said:


> And what did she said which is wrong ?



If you guys didn't read the article, read it again. She used her freedom of expression to say whatever she said, there were a bunch of women who didn't like what she said so they used their freedom of assembly and protest to go to her house and protest. The only casualties of that so called attack was 2 broken flower pots. 

Where exactly are Indians denying Arundhati Roy her freedom of expression?


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## Tshering22

mr42O said:


> And what did she said which is wrong ?


Everything that is wrong according to us since she's standing on our soil, eating our benefits, living a life of luxury off Indians. So everything she said against the nation is wrong. 

That is why I am telling you Pakistanis; you love her so much then take her and grant her citizenship.

Really.. we aren't too fuzzy about Democratic principles if they're a threat to our country and if deemed we don't mind twisting some laws. For those who want liberty on this, they can go and live in US where even mentioning the T word these days will get one in Guantanamo Bay.

For us national interests are more important than democracy as a principle. If you want to prove that we are a sham of a democracy, go ahead; shout to the entire world. Let's see whose words will be taken more seriously; yours or ours.

We care a baboon's bottoms about democracy "ethics" if it is potentially harmful to India. You Pakistanis make it sound like we're the torch-bearers of democracy and its principles, *which US is*. Not us at all. We're called world's largest democracy because of our population size.

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## scrumpy

Tshering22 said:


> Everything that is wrong according to us since she's standing on our soil, eating our benefits, living a life of luxury off Indians. So everything she said against the nation is wrong.
> 
> That is why I am telling you Pakistanis; you love her so much then take her and grant her citizenship.
> 
> Really.. we aren't too fuzzy about Democratic principles if they're a threat to our country and if deemed we don't mind twisting some laws. For those who want liberty on this, they can go and live in US where even mentioning the T word these days will get one in Guantanamo Bay.
> 
> For us national interests are more important than democracy as a principle. If you want to prove that we are a sham of a democracy, go ahead; shout to the entire world. Let's see whose words will be taken more seriously; yours or ours.
> 
> We care a baboon's bottoms about democracy "ethics" if it is potentially harmful to India. You Pakistanis make it sound like we're the torch-bearers of democracy and its principles, *which US is*. Not us at all. We're called world's largest democracy because of our population size.



I do not agree with you and am disgusted by your thoughts. We are proud of our democracy and our tolerant traditions.

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## Tshering22

scrumpy said:


> I do not agree with you and am disgusted by your thoughts. We are proud of our democracy and our tolerant traditions.


Wow! Sorry buddy, even the world torchbearer of democracy the US has twisted laws to fit its needs so why not us? And if you didn't know that, our top command does do that sometimes. It is called realpolitik. The world doesn't go on idealism, bro. It runs on self-interest and as long as self-interest is there, there's all these "principles". The moment it is compromised, everything changes about any country.

Rather than being "disgusted" with me, come down from la-la land and smell the coffee; world isn't as rose-tinted as you think it is.

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## WHF

Hafizzz said:


> Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris (muslims).


 Nope dear kasmiriyat wat ever it means(for me it is massacare and holocaust of Kp's) belong to kashmiri muslims.The land below their feet is india's(hindu majority)..sniper:


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## WHF

mr42O said:


> HAHA and where gona hindu will move if a some thing happens ? Any other hindu country in mind ? lol



You guys tried 1000 years to wipe us n our culture.U guys destroyed persian/Egyptian/african cultures in matter of decades..isnt it what went wrong with the hindus dear??1000 years of trial and notthing evolved??see u tried 1000 years notthing happened and we guys ina matter of 60 years are making ur life hell..
So dont worry about us we wont go anywhere.islam is too small an entity to wipe us hindus out.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Omar Abdullah invited to have dinner with Obama​*
Published: Friday, Nov 5, 2010, 1:56 IST 

The Centre has invited Omar Abdullah to break bread with Barack Obama. The invite comes at a time when separatists are trying to convince the US president to intervene in the Kashmir issue.

Omar has given his consent and will be joining the dinner with Obama, a source close to the Jammu and Kashmir chief minister said. 

The separatists have launched the Quit Kashmir programme on a full scale to make it more visible during the US presidents visit. Moderates, too, are trying their best to persuade Obama to utter the K-word. 

Moderate Hurriyat Conference led by Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has intensified its signature campaign to persuade US to resolve the issue.

Omar Abdullah invited to have dinner with Obama - India - DNA


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## jayron

@Subramaniam

The thread is not Hindu vs Muslim. It is Secularism vs religious fanaticism . I would like to know which side you are in.

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## nForce

Basically Jinnah desperately wanted Kashmir to be a part of Pakistan as many rivers flow into Pakistan through this region.

If India controls this region then India can choke Pakistan anytime by redirecting the water,building dams etc.

So,yes,it is true,that Pakistan needs Kashmir to be* their territory* in order to be self sufficient.

But saying that Pakistan will be incomplete without *freedom *of Kashmir,is like hiding behind ambiguity.

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## Kinetic

Omar1984 said:


> Only if Muslims again rule india like we did for over 1000 years.



We are ready. lol merge first than see what happens......  

My place even now 'ruled' by a Muslim!!!! The MP of my locality is a Muslim.  

BTW you got the number wrong, its not 1000 years, its 5000 years from the days of Indus civilizations. And other Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and Sikhs from India were watching you doing so. lol



Omar1984 said:


> Yes like all Muslim majority regions in South Asia, Kashmir is beautiful Masha'Allah.



So Muslims live only in beautiful places??? eye aadmi kaha se aya hein????


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

1947 : Pakistan incomplete without Kashmir

2010 : Pakistan incomplete without freedom of Kashmir .

the change speaks a lot of words.


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## Bharat Muslim

.
US know they have earned the wrath of worldwide Muslim community. US know the consequences of Iraq and Afghanistan wars could be serious. They fear Muslim retaliation.

US plan to appease this Muslim anger by meddling in the Kashmir issue. For that they are paying Kashmiris and asking them to be invited as mediators.

Kashmiris do want to separate from India but seeking US help was not there idea. They could have wrested independence all by themselves.

This hogwash about Kashmiris looking for US intervention is all American manipulation.

And though Indian military is capable of beating US they wont do so. Indian military is god damn corrupt and they are going to get US citizenship as bribe.

There is a hope if Dr. Manmohan Singh seeks Russias help.


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## KS

*Too much weed is bad for health*

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## The Clarifier

I highly doubt Indian army is able to beat US...

And the way we Muslims are right now, I don't think we will 'retaliate'.

But that above comment was pure trolling.


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## KS

The Clarifier said:


> I highly doubt Indian army is able to beat US...
> 
> And the way we Muslims are right now, I don't think we will 'retaliate'.
> 
> But that above comment was pure trolling.



Mine was trolling..??lol....



> US know they have earned the wrath of worldwide Muslim community. US know the consequences of Iraq and Afghanistan wars could be serious. T*hey fear Muslim retaliation*


.

This is not trolling ?



> US plan to appease this Muslim anger by meddling in the Kashmir issue. *For that they are paying Kashmiris and asking them to be invited as mediators*.



About this ?



> Kashmiris do want to separate from India but seeking US help was not there idea. *They could have wrested independence all by themselves.*



LMAO



> This hogwash about Kashmiris looking for US intervention is all American manipulation.








> And though Indian military is capable of beating US they wont do so. Indian military is god damn corrupt and *they are going to get US citizenship as bribe.*





And you are calling my post as troll. 

*Anyway,My mistake in replying to this thread*.....Im off


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## The Clarifier

That's not trolling. That's his opinion. You could have addressed it.


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## scrumpy

Tshering22 said:


> Wow! Sorry buddy, even the world torchbearer of democracy the US has twisted laws to fit its needs so why not us? And if you didn't know that, our top command does do that sometimes. It is called realpolitik. The world doesn't go on idealism, bro. It runs on self-interest and as long as self-interest is there, there's all these "principles". The moment it is compromised, everything changes about any country.
> 
> Rather than being "disgusted" with me, come down from la-la land and smell the coffee; world isn't as rose-tinted as you think it is.



Ohh spare me your 'You can't handle the truth' speech.

Our democracy is based on the laws set out in the constitution. This guaranties out freedoms which applies to every one equally. Just because you don't like a few Indians, it doesn't mean that our constitution has shunned them. 

If people like you start thinking that subverting the constitution for a few special cases is OK, our country will fall down faster then a deck of cards. Thankfully, there are a lot more sane people in the country who will not let that happen.

Here is a quote from a German pastor about the silence of German intellectuals when the Nazis did what they did.

--
They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up.
--

Hitler thought that by getting rid of the jews, he was serving his own country. Are you any different in your thinking in this matter?

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## Avatar

So USA is gonna invade and "liberate" Kashmir, hand it over to pious Pakistan, while corrupt Indian Army stands there and waits for 1 million green cards ?

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## mayankmatador

I think flower should be thrown on her for her comments,,,,,,,,, (R) flowers along with flower pot.

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## Hafizzz

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *Arundhati Roy's house attacked​*
> By Andrew Buncombe, Asia Correspondent
> 
> Monday, 1 November 2010
> 
> Dozens of right-wing activists attacked and vandalised the house of Booker prize-winning writer Arundhati Roy over comments she made suggesting *Kashmir had never been an integral part of India.*
> 
> Up to 100 activists, most of them members of the womens wing of a Hindu-nationalist political party, gathered outside Ms Roys home in Delhi and starting damaging flower-pots. Security guards along with some of Ms Roys domestic servants prevented the demonstrators from entering the house.
> 
> Last night, Ms Roy, who was not at home at the time of the attack condemned the activists but also questioned the role of the broadcast media, as TV crews had been present at her home, apparently tipped off about the protest.
> 
> What is the nature of the agreement between these sections of the media and mobs and criminals in search of spectacle? Does the media which positions itself at the scene in advance have a guarantee that the attacks and demonstrations will be non-violent? What happens if there is criminal trespass or even something worse, Ms Roy said in a statement. Does the media then become accessory to the crime? This question is important, given that some TV channels and newspapers are in the process of brazenly inciting mob anger against me. In the race for sensationalism the line between reporting news and manufacturing news is becoming blurred.
> 
> The demonstration by members of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) followed comments Ms Roy last month at a public seminar on Kashmir. During the meeting in Delhi, she said the long-disputed Kashmir region had never been an integral part of India. Even the Indian government has accepted this. Why are we trying to change this now, the activist and author The God of Small Things, had said.
> 
> Indias political opposition immediately leapt on the comments and demanded that she be charged with sedition. While the law ministry took advice on the issue, the government eventually decided not to proceed with charges against the writer.
> 
> Last night, police in Delhi said they were investigating the attack on Ms Roys house, located in the citys diplomatic quarter. Meanwhile, Shika Roy, president of the local womens wing of the BJP and who led the protest, told reporters: The protest was organised against Arundhati Roy's remarks on azadi for Kashmir. We chose to protest on Sunday as it happens to be the birth anniversary of Sardar Vallabhai Patel who united the whole country.
> 
> Ms Roys comments on Kashmir come after months of turmoil in the valley, where fresh demonstrations for autonomy broke out in in June. The once-independent kingdom has been fought over since 1947 when its Hindu ruler decided the Muslim majority state should join independent India, rather than the newly-created Pakistan. An insurgency that gathered pace after India rigged elections in 1987, combined with an unrelenting response from the Indian authorities that has transformed Kashmir into one of the most militarised places on the planet, has led to the deaths of more than 70,000 people. Most Hindus were forced out or fled. For many years, Pakistan provided weapons and training to many of the Kashmiri militants.
> 
> The government has recently appointed three interlocuters to meet with the valleys separatists but even that has not been without controversy. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh was forced to defend the trio after they said that Pakistan needed to be involved in any resolution for the disputed region  something that infuriated th2 BJP. Mr Singh later said: Comments in a democracy are free.
> 
> Arundhati Roy's house attacked - Asia, World - The Independent



I see why people call India the world's largest "democracy".


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## Hafizzz

> Who are India's real traitors?
> Who are India's real traitors? | Indra Sinha | Comment is free | The Guardian
> 
> 
> 
> The writer Arundhati Roy, once a national heroine for being the first Indian to win the Booker prize, today finds herself a reviled figure. The demonisation of Roy has taken just over a decade, and many will tell you it's her own fault. She just won't stop opening her mouth and saying uncomfortable things.
> 
> Roy's latest sin was to express her doubts about India's right to rule Kashmir. It's a rule enforced by 700,000 soldiers and, by all accounts, most ordinary Kashmiris want them gone. They are calling for azaadi, the freedom to determine their own future via the plebiscite called for in UN resolution 47, which since 1948 India has ignored.
> 
> Roy evidently thinks this offers a better way forward than the present violent stalemate. This is her personal opinion, but after daring to express it, politicians, media and public figures have called for her to be prosecuted for treason. There are rumours that charges are imminent. Times Now TV ran a story "Net closing in on Roy", as if she were bandit queen Phoolan Devi. She deserves the death penalty, say some, for showing sympathy to Maoists and advocating the secession of Kashmir from India. Note that word, "secession".
> 
> Watching from across the world, I've been appalled as one Indian intellectual after another queues up to call for limits to freedom of speech and to have a go at "this author-turned-rabble-rouser", this "one-book wonder". I am amazed at the violence of their rhetoric, and their eagerness to give away their democratic rights. I was seriously scared for her safety when I heard that her house had been attacked by a stone-throwing mob.
> 
> Roy is married to Pradip Krishen, an old schoolfriend of mine, and in 2008 I had dinner with them in Delhi. We talked about Krishnen's book, Trees of Delhi; about my work campaigning with the Bhopalis over the past 15 years; and Roy's work with the anti-dam campaign in Gujarat, which after years of struggle was unable to prevent hundreds of thousands of tribal people being forced off their land. We also talked about central India, where tribal people had been brutalised and driven from their forests so their lands could be handed over to mining corporations and steel-makers, and where the failure of laws, media and politicians to protect people's lives and fundamental rights had bred a full-scale Maoist insurrection.
> 
> We discussed the futility of using Gandhian forms of protest in modern India. My Bhopali friends were just about to set out on a 500-mile walk to Delhi (the second in two years) to ask the prime minister to honour promises he had made on the previous occasion and not kept. I said that I feared the long walk would get little attention, that the subsequent sit-in would be ignored by ministers, and that a hunger strike was inevitable.
> 
> In the silence that followed, our thoughts trespassed on the borders of forbidden territory, not quite daring to confront that taboo question: when all peaceful attempts at protest are ignored, or worse, crushed; when laws are twisted, broken or brushed aside as if they don't matter; when people who speak up are intimidated, imprisoned or killed, what should we do?
> 
> People are rightly scared to face this question, and it's the one question that modern India must answer. Roy's frustration and anger have led her to speak bluntly. People can't bear to hear what she is saying, so instead of listening they find fault with her voice, her attitude.
> 
> Why does she make such a fuss? Things can't be so bad, surely. Last week the Bugatti Veyron Grand Sport tourer was launched in India for a mere £2.2m. "India is the hub of luxury, the country of the erstwhile maharajas," said Bugatti's Julius Kruta. "I think this launch will truly delight our discerning audience."
> 
> Well that's all right then. As for the masses, they can go hang themselves. Literally. And they do. But there's no need to worry about the thousands of farm suicides because, with a population of 1 billion, the per capita farm suicide rate is not as high as in the UK. And if 85% of India's population is shut out of its shining economic miracle, that still leaves 15% of 1 billion, which is a huge market in anyone's terms. When India's middle classes accuse Roy of promoting "secession", it is a huge double irony, for she has indeed talked of secession.
> 
> In an interview with the magazine, Tehelka, she said: "What we're witnessing is the most successful secessionist struggle ever waged in independent India  the secession of the middle and upper classes from the rest of the country. It's a vertical secession, not a lateral one. They're fighting for the right to merge with the world's elite somewhere up there in the stratosphere."
> 
> Who are the real traitors?
> 
> 
> It is India's wealthy elite that is turning its back on the nation and its people, not Arundhati Roy



Roy is not a traitor.


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## Capt.Popeye

Hafizzz said:


> Roy is not a traitor.



And neither are you a "Supreme Court"!


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## somebozo

dude..what did u smoke today?


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## Toshiba

Hafizzz said:


> I see why people call India the world's largest "democracy".



any doubt.........


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## LaBong

> What is the nature of the agreement between these sections of the media and mobs and criminals in search of spectacle? Does the media which positions itself at the scene in advance have a guarantee that the attacks and demonstrations will be non-violent? What happens if there is criminal trespass or even something worse, Ms Roy said in a statement. Does the media then become accessory to the crime? This question is important, given that some TV channels and newspapers are in the process of brazenly inciting mob anger against me. In the race for sensationalism the line between reporting news and manufacturing news is becoming blurred.



So now we should hold all the protests even those which bears a registered political party's name if and only if we have somekinda guarantee that the protest will be non-violent!! Wow, is this the same lady who preaches the freedom and speech and all! 

Sorry, Mrs Roy, media only practising their freedom of speech.


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## SEAL

Attacks on houses and religious places is culture of saffron lobby even if India lost cricket match they attack players houses so atleast i am not surprised.


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## scrumpy

fox said:


> Attacks on houses and religious places is culture of saffron lobby even if India lost cricket match they attack players houses so atleast i am not surprised.



Are you trying to say that the trait is only seen with the Hindutva groups? 
Do I need to show you reports of the happenings in your country with the so called Mullah groups? I would say these saffron groups appear rank amateurs when compared to the religious fanatic groups in your country.

Religious fanatics especially of the Semitic religions are very similar in their thinking of if you are not with us, you are against us. I guess the extent to which they will go to harm others who do not agree with their thinkings varies wildly.

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## Toshiba

fox said:


> Attacks on houses and religious places is culture of saffron lobby even if India lost cricket match they attack players houses so atleast i am not surprised.



regarding to cricket,it is the religion of sports in india.they expect players to do better.they love cricket.

but comparing it with AR,who talks abt the disintegrity of nation ,is ridiculous.

i suppose u have the same opinion regarding to the ppl who talk abt the disintegrity of pakistan.


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## Kinetic

Hafizzz said:


> I see why people call India the world's largest "democracy".



 If India were not democracy and ruled by military dictators A Roy had been already vanished and people would have never see her again. Sorry to disappoint you first know what is democracy, it doesn't allow to show hatred towards own country.

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## Tshering22

> Ohh spare me your 'You can't handle the truth' speech.



Whether I have to give speech or not, you've to wake up. AR is not Bhagat Singh that I'm talking about. Stop being apologetic towards traitors if you have *least bit of respect* for those who die daily at the borders, forests, deserts and valleys just so that we might live to see another day.



> Our democracy is based on the laws set out in the constitution. This guaranties out freedoms which applies to every one equally. Just because you don't like a few Indians, it doesn't mean that our constitution has shunned them.



This self-conceptualized intellectualism has ruined this country's security apparatus with more than half a dozen terrorist organizations operating or active in different parts of the country. Not to mention more than 600 sleeper cells active nationwide as IB has reported. Obviously authentic reports are not to be revealed to common people but even this figure gives us the idea how much our "FREEDOMS" are being misused by terrorists.

I am all for laws and freedoms but not for those who support terrorism and attempt at sabotaging national unity. That is not freedom; it is treachery to the country that gives such traitors everything including the clothes they're in and the house they enjoy all their personal comforts of.



> If people like you start thinking that subverting the constitution for a few special cases is OK, our country will fall down faster then a deck of cards. Thankfully, there are a lot more sane people in the country who will not let that happen.



It is because of these sane people that terrorists take a strike in our country like target practice and all people do is light candles, cry like babies and all while your "sane" people beg to the perpetrators to hand over those who're guilty and make a mockery out of world's 4 th largest political and military power.

Sorry cowardice doesn't equal "freedom", "liberty" and "equality" in our dictionary.




> Hitler thought that by getting rid of the jews, he was serving his own country. Are you any different in your thinking in this matter?



Seriously? You're comparing 6 million innocent Jews who did nothing to Germany to Arundhati Roy who's abusing the same nation that gave her everything?  That eliminates all the reasoning there can be to the arguments that you've put forward.

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## Tshering22

@Scrumpy,

One more thing; it is easy to sit in UK and talk of all the liberty and equality and rights that democracy is supposed to provide when your residing country's soldiers are fighting for all that you speak of thousands of miles away. It takes more than just a few intellectual words to walk your talk by living in a place where terrorism is almost a few miles away from your doorstep. 

So don't tell me what is the meaning of democracy and how to live in it with what laws. Democratic laws are for those who respect it, contribute to the nation and abide by laws; not for traitors and terrorist supporters who shamelessly besmirch the name of the same land that gave them everything.

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## JonAsad

wtf wtf wtf
its a script, probably for a movie.


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## LaBong

Tshering22 said:


> @Scrumpy,
> 
> One more thing; it is easy to sit in UK and talk of all the liberty and equality and rights that democracy is supposed to provide when your residing country's soldiers are fighting for all that you speak of thousands of miles away. It takes more than just a few intellectual words to walk your talk by living in a place where terrorism is almost a few miles away from your doorstep.
> 
> So don't tell me what is the meaning of democracy and how to live in it with what laws. Democratic laws are for those who respect it, contribute to the nation and abide by laws; not for traitors and terrorist supporters who shamelessly besmirch the name of the same land that gave them everything.



I find nothing wrong in what Scrumpy said. And what soldiers fight has to do with freedom of speech? Why is it always comes to soldiers fight and martyrs family if anyone speaks anything different than national mood? Is it a patriotic test? Do we always have to prove ourselves patriotic with a capital P? One can construct their argument that Arundhuti wants our soldiers not to die that's why she is asking GoI to leave Kashmir. 

See the fact is Freedom of Speech must be withheld with utmost respect! Today they are finding Arundhuti a traitor, tomorrow it will be people protesting against atrocities done to tribals, then it will be people who don't buy their ideology, not long after they will get me under their clutch.

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## Von Hölle

Seems we have Indian version of BATMAN here !!

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## justanobserver

^
The guy is definitely *not* BATMAN. He's just a clever troll


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## scrumpy

Tshering22 said:


> blah blah blah...
> 
> Sorry cowardice doesn't equal "freedom", "liberty" and "equality" in our dictionary.



Your call about killing a non violent writer __Bravery__??
You have a case of blind nationalism. Do not confuse it with patriotism. I want my country to be a shining example of democracy where every one's rights are defended irrespective of their opinions. Not a country which conveniently decides to silence dissidents. 

What you are talking about is an attack on the ideals represented in our constitution which we the people have sworn to uphold. Are you sure she is the enemy? I think people who don't give a damn to our rights are the enemy. 




> Seriously? You're comparing 6 million innocent Jews who did nothing to Germany to Arundhati Roy who's abusing the same nation that gave her everything?  That eliminates all the reasoning there can be to the arguments that you've put forward.



Building strawmen are we???
If you read that bit again, I didn not compare Arundhati Roy to the Houlocast Jews. I am comparing __your__ train of thought to Hitler's. According to him what he did what he did to strengthen his country.


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## scrumpy

Tshering22 said:


> @Scrumpy,
> One more thing; it is easy to sit in UK and talk of all the liberty and equality and rights that democracy is supposed to provide when your residing country's soldiers are fighting for all that you speak of thousands of miles away. It takes more than just a few intellectual words to walk your talk by living in a place where terrorism is almost a few miles away from your doorstep.



You mean only soldiers can be patriotic? I am sure the guys who were involved in the Adarsh Housing society scam are also patriotic in the terms you put it in. 

What do you know about me which gives you the right to attack me personally?
My home town is Mumbai. It is the city which has had the most terrorist attacks in India. My parents still stay in Mumbai. I have been to all those places those terrorists attacked except for Chabad house. I have stayed at the Taj in the same old wing where the terrorists ran amok in those 3-4 days.
You think I don't know what these terrorist attacks felt like?


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## scrumpy

Abir said:


> See the fact is Freedom of Speech must be withheld with utmost respect! Today they are finding Arundhuti a traitor, tomorrow it will be people protesting against atrocities done to tribals, then it will be people who don't buy their ideology, not long after they will get me under their clutch.



As they say, Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels. How different are these guys from the Taliban who with their skewed sense of religious righteousness think that it is all right to kill some one who do not agree with them.


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## justanobserver

^
You're going over the top by comparing a few smashed flower pots to the Taliban.


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## scrumpy

justanobserver said:


> ^
> You're going over the top by comparing a few smashed flower pots to the Taliban.



Please read that bit again. I am not comparing flowerpots to the Taliban. 

I am saying that the idea that it is ok to kill someone just because they don't agree with you is similar to that of the Taliban's.


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## justanobserver

scrumpy said:


> ^^ you have no comprehension skills.


^^
And you're a self righteous pseudo intellectual 

We can play these games all day you know


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## scrumpy

justanobserver said:


> ^^
> And you're a self righteous pseudo intellectual
> 
> We can play these games all day you know



That doesn't change the fact that you have no comprehension skills.


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## justanobserver

^^


justanobserver said:


> We can play these games all day you know


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## gubbi

I agree with scrumpy's points. IMHO, you people are making a mountain out of a molehill. 


We, as a nation, are progressing towards a mature democracy. In such a scenario, there should be no place for suppression of human rights or suppression of freedoms of speech. However, there are laws which limit those in the greater interest of national security and day to day peace of the nation. 

If a political party had made similar comments like those of Ms AR, THAT would be sedition - an offence under Indian Penal Code! However, there is place in our democracy for crazy people - the self appointed intellectuals like Ms AR - who can support extremist ideologies. You will be surprised how many of our intelleligentsia support the naxalites and yet they walk and talk free. These people do not make laws, neither do they have political base to gather support for their "ideologies". Their ideologies remain just theories. There is state machinery which sees to it that such ideologies, if extremist, do not manifest themselves practically.

So let her speak. The GoI has taken a sound decision to ignore her, implying that she is just another idiot sitting on an apparent high moral horse! But that does not leave her immune from PILs from concerned citizens and the law will look into the concerns of the citizens. There are already several PILs filed against her, her hands are going to be full for quite sometime. Remember Medha Patkar and her idiotic Narmada bacho andolan? Once a media darling, she was dropped like a hot potato after the Govt won the case to go ahead with the project. A similar fate awaits our Ms Roy. A media whore that she is, she better publish a good novel for all the adoration and attention, lest she disappears from the public eye.

As for Kashmir, India needs to deal with it with an iron hand inside a velvet glove, albeit more tactfully and tastefully than anything GoI has done before.

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## Bang Galore

Diwali is to be celebrated with fireworks in the open, not inside the forum and most of those going off here smells quite awful. Wait for a day, we can have plenty of fireworks going off after the visit of the great one. No need to exhaust your supplies now.

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## justanobserver

Well let me clarify my stance.

I'm not the one making the calls to kill her, but I do agree that we're not the 'Torchbearers of Democracy' at-least not yet.

That is the domain of the US, to lecture countries about morality and if they disagree then 'bomb them with democracy'. Nehru tried moral lectures but he didn't have a big _danda_ (like the US)

Take the case of Burma, either we can keep criticizing it for HR violations and stop diplomatic contact or we can be (as we have ) more pragmatic.

Of course, doing silly things like killing/jailing Roy, will making a martyr of a moron


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## Abu Zolfiqar

gubbi said:


> As for Kashmir, India needs to deal with it with an iron hand inside a velvet glove, albeit more tactfully and tastefully than anything GoI has done before.






enlighten me further; or do you mean to imply 20% increase in sexual crimes against Kashmiri women, 50% increase in curfews, and 55-60% increase in fake encounters and quota-based killings

lets hear about this ''velvet glove'' because so far, sounds more like brass knuckles on largely peaceful demonstrators who happen to abhor hindustany military occupation in the disputed territory


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## gubbi

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> enlighten me further; or do you mean to imply 20% increase in sexual crimes against Kashmiri women, 50% increase in curfews, and 55-60% increase in fake encounters and quota-based killings
> 
> lets hear about this ''velvet glove'' because so far, sounds more like brass knuckles on largely peaceful demonstrators who happen to abhor hindustany military occupation in the disputed territory



Got a troll itch, I presume. Did you read the part where I mentioned "*than anything GoI has done before*"? As for the numbers that you came up with, were they published in any newspapers on the planet Uranus?

I do not make policies. Hence I cannot give you any better ideas about what GoI has to do, than what people have already debated. There are far more educated and capable people in positions of power in India who can think about what to do. Hopefully, they do their work better this time around.

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## Subramanian

jayron said:


> @Subramaniam
> 
> The thread is not Hindu vs Muslim. It is Secularism vs religious fanaticism . I would like to know which side you are in.



This is like nuclear disarmament.You first,me later or rather never.

This is Hindu vs Muslim,that is Hindu vs Muslim and everything in South Asia is Hindu vs Muslim.This problem ll always exist as long as the semitic,organized book religions insist on oneupmanship and conversion of unorganized pagan faiths,hindus(non muslim,christians of Bharat) have no choice but to get polarized.

Secularism is a fancy adjective for arm chair idealists and people who dont have to toil to make a living.This doesn't mean minorities should get slaughtered or isolated or anything.

But i am tired of the pseudo secularist dickheads sucking up to muslims and keeping them purposefully weakened to create a votebank.

If people want to have secularism,religion has to come next after culture.Mecca cant come above India,It has to be country first,religion next.Those who cant think like that can go to Mecca only.

Hinduism doesn't tell me about one god,his name and all that.It says Aham Brahmasmi,the soul is inside me and my clear conscience and self righteousness is my god.There is no problem for me in putting country first because my religion gives me full freedom to explore possibilities.

It has become so sad that a devout muslim is a religious guy but a devout hindu is a RSS guy.


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## Tshering22

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> enlighten me further; or do you mean to imply 20% increase in sexual crimes against Kashmiri women, 50% increase in curfews, and 55-60% increase in fake encounters and quota-based killings
> 
> lets hear about this ''velvet glove'' because so far, sounds more like brass knuckles on largely peaceful demonstrators who happen to abhor hindustany military occupation in the disputed territory


AK-47s and grenades and communal ethnic cleansing is peaceful for you... not by our standards.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

toss the brass knuckles and the torn garden gloves, agree with your neighbours to hold a free and fair plebicite whereby Kashmiris have the (existential) right to determine their fate.

it's really not so complicated, provided you don't convolute things and make issues out of non-issues


when you reply, you will talk about pandits; my pre-designated response will be to encourage them to go back to the disputed territory if they so desire; non-Muslim groups are existing there as well and they aren't having any harassment by those ''ISI sponsored'' ''trouble-makers'' (AKA the indigenous Kashmiri Muslims)


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## Avatar

Von H&#246;lle;1247334 said:


> Seems we have Indian version of BATMAN here !!



Faking two Indian flags does not make one an Indian.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Tshering22 said:


> AK-47s and grenades and communal ethnic cleansing is peaceful for you... not by our standards.



coming from someone whose local occupation forces (sissies) are creating said conditions in the region on daily basis!

bizarre i must say


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## gubbi

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> toss the brass knuckles and the torn garden gloves, agree with your neighbours to hold a free and fair plebicite whereby Kashmiris have the (existential) right to determine their fate.
> 
> it's really not so complicated, provided you don't convolute things and make issues out of non-issues
> 
> 
> when you reply, you will talk about pandits; my pre-designated response will be to encourage them to go back to the disputed territory if they so desire; non-Muslim groups are existing there as well and they aren't having any harassment by those ''ISI sponsored'' ''trouble-makers'' (AKA the indigenous Kashmiri Muslims)



Thats just over simplification of the problem. From rose tinted glasses, it does look very simple. But I am sure that diplomatic nuances over a period of time have complicated the issue far too much for involved parties to get out of the entangled web that is the Kashmir issue.
There are a lot of insecurities between both the countries to address the issue amicably. Not to mention the strategic location of the piece of land from a nation's security pov and the very important water resources of Kashmir, which feed both Pakistan and India - the former to a larger extent.
As for the standard of living and being spoilt rotten, I do believe that Kashmiris from India are having a ball of a time, except for the protests part.

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## gubbi

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> coming from someone whose local occupation forces (sissies) are creating said conditions in the region on daily basis!



Its not a chicken or egg scenario. Violence in Kashmir started by the militants resulted in Indian security forces being deployed to kashmir. Kashmiris are not an innocent bunch, so spare us the moral highhandedness.

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## Gandhi G in da house

My interaction with kashmiries online tells me that the youth there has become religiously intolerant . They kept saying that Hindus will only be welcomed if they support the muslim's separatist movement otherwise they will be thrown out again . Kashmiri muslims are certainly not innocent . A man like Gilani who was to quite an extent responsible for murder and ethnic cleansing of Hindus and Sikhs is held in high esteem in the valley , it only tells you the mindset of the people there. 

Anyways back on topic , She is doing this to get publicity and she is getting it , we are all being so foolish here. Start ignoring her and then i can bet you ll see her change her line faster than a chameleon changes its colour. Her comments dont change anything .

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## Abu Zolfiqar

i don't subscribe to that; i'm sorry, that is nonsense

show me proof that Gilani is responsible for ''ethnic cleansing''


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## Abu Zolfiqar

gubbi said:


> Its not a chicken or egg scenario. Violence in Kashmir started by the militants resulted in Indian security forces being deployed to kashmir. Kashmiris are not an innocent bunch, so spare us the moral highhandedness.



spare us your pompous indifference and generalizations

why did the Kashmiri militancy rise in the first place?


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## The HBS Guy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> why did the Kashmiri militancy rise in the first place?



why did the Kashmiri militancy not rise before 1989 in the first place?


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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> coming from someone whose local occupation forces (sissies) are creating said conditions in the region on daily basis!
> 
> bizarre i must say



I can go toe to toe in terms of insulting Pakistani army here in return considering that 90000 of PA soldiers surrendered to the same sissies you talk about here. But dont you think its better to respect the forum rules



> To move the debates forward, we're enforcing the use of the term "Kashmiri separatists" and enforcing ALL uniformed armies be given their due respect as soldiers

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## The HBS Guy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> enlighten me further; or do you mean to imply 20% increase in sexual crimes against Kashmiri women, 50% increase in curfews, and 55-60% increase in fake encounters and quota-based killings



..........Proof?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

thanks for your post; as it seems to be a new rule i didn't see before, i will from now on abide by it --regardless of whatever personal views i have and will continue to have

Kingkong --seeds were long ago planted. 1989, 1994, etc. of course saw huge rise in anti-indian seperatism which still exists today. 

best advice is to do the most 'democratic' thing and hold referendum

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## gubbi

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> spare us your pompous indifference and generalizations
> 
> why did the Kashmiri militancy rise in the first place?



Kashmiri militancy started in 1989. I am talking about the violence perpetrated by armed militants and not the political problem. It would have remained a political problem if not for the extremist elements in Kashmir who started the armed 'revolt'.

1989 was also the year that the erstwhile Soviet Union withdrew forces from Afghanistan, leaving the Mujaheedin literally jobless! Pakistan saw an opportunity and there was some shuffling by Pakistani authorities which resulted in innumerable loss of lives in Kashmir.

Anywho, we are discussing your beloved and our loathed Ms Roy here. Lets stick to that.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

KingKong31 said:


> ..........Proof?



absolutely correct, you read what i said, now provide proof

Gilani and Farooq publicly condemned some of the militancy and appealed for calm, despite constant house arrest by the occupational forces


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## The HBS Guy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Kingkong --seeds were long ago planted. 1989, 1994, etc. of course saw huge rise in anti-indian seperatism which still exists today.



I did not ask 'when', i asked 'why' and BTW even your 'when' is misplaced as it does not answer my question.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> best advice is to do the most 'democratic' thing and hold referendum



Please spare us the homilies on 'democracy'.


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## Ingis

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> why did the Kashmiri militancy rise in the first place?



Why don't you ask that question to Pakistani Army generals?

Pakistan has repeatedly used armed militias to wage a proxy war against India in Kashmir. Whether it be Operation Gulmarg in 1947, or Operation Gibraltar in 1965 or the intensification of militancy in Kashmir in 1988.

Regardless of what Pakistan does, India's withdrawal from Kashmir will remain a Pakistani wet dream.


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## Gandhi G in da house

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> thanks for your post; as it seems to be a new rule i didn't see before, i will from now on abide by it --regardless of whatever personal views i have and will continue to have
> 
> Kingkong --seeds were long ago planted. 1989, 1994, etc. of course saw huge rise in anti-indian seperatism which still exists today.
> 
> best advice is to do the most 'democratic' thing and hold referendum



Since you are a military professional , i expect you to know that majority people in jammu and ladakh don't want freedom and are happy being with India, so why should their will be ignored only for people living in the kashmir valley who happen to be more in number ? Even the minorities in the valley are pro india . This is a complex problem and the solution will also have to complex . An easy solution like referendum is neither feasible nor possible in such a situation.I hope you take a deep look inside the Kashmir problem and take into consideration the will of jammuites , ladakhis and valley minorities as well . 

P.S- Even if you don't it doesn't change anything.


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## hellofriends

it very funny the people who actually don't know what is "the freedom of speech" OR the country where people hanged only due to their "freedom of speech" are opposing the country where is true democracy. i don't know why they are questing even indian govt. did not sue any case against stupid arundhati roy. arundhati roy is very lucky that she born in india otherwise she must be killed by govt. if she born in any other country.

PLEASE i am requesting you "LOOK AT YOURSELF"


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## Abu Zolfiqar

ahan....democracy where most convenient i suppose


oh tosh!


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## S_O_C_O_M

*OSJK: Raja Habib urged Muslim world to act on Kashmir ​*






Srinagar, November 05, 2010: The Chairman of Jammu & Kashmir Human Rights Council International wing, Raja Habib Jalib today, sent a letter to twenty Head of States of Muslim world asking them to raise the human rights violation in Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK) with American Governments.

He said that US Government must realize that peace in South Asia is very important for the future of World economy as well as peace in the area, and peaceful solution to the Jammu & Kashmir issue could bring great business to the World. He said that until the issue of Jammu & Kashmir is not solved according to the wishes of people of Jammu & Kashmir, south Asia will have continues tensions.

In a letter to the President of Turky, King of Saudi Arabia & President & Prime Minister of Pakistan Raja Habib Jalib requested the leaders to raise the issue with President Barrak Oboma to discuss these issues while touring India. Measnwhile, Raja Hbaib Jalib also requested the leadership of Jammu & Kashmir to unite in one voice, and raise the issue of Jammu & Kashmir according to UN resolutions.

He said that India cannot force the people of Kashmir to accept illegal accupation of Kashmir by its forces. Time has come that India must start serious negotiation to resolve the issue of Jammu & Kashmir according to the aspiration of people of OSJK.

He said that India must stop killing innocent civilians and calling Jammu & Kashmir its integral part, which is total nonesense, because every one knows that issue of Jammu & Kashmir has to be resolved according to the wishes of people of Kashmir as mentioned in the resolution of UNO Security Council. Raja Habib Jalib also sent a letter to Europeon Union Human Rights commission requesting the commission for raising the issue of human rights violation in OSJK.

Raja Habib Jalib requested the political leaders of Pakistan to raise the issue of safty of political leadership of OSJK, he said that Hurriat leaders are always under the threat of Indian military & para military forces. He urged to provide leadership of Kashmir travel facilities so that three party dialogue could be started.

OSJK: Raja Habib urged Muslim world to act on Kashmir


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

I don't expect a response from the arabs, we all know they're more interested in their own oil profits than the people of Kashmir. Lets see what Turkey / EU says on the matter.


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## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> ahan....democracy where most convenient i suppose
> 
> 
> oh tosh!



The word is "real politik"..........


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## Abu Zolfiqar

rite! 

thanks for clarification


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## Peshwa

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> toss the brass knuckles and the torn garden gloves, agree with your neighbours to hold a free and fair plebicite whereby Kashmiris have the (existential) right to determine their fate.



Lets get one thing straight.....

You ask us to adhere to Kashmiri demands....but when in history has Pakistan taken any actions in compliance with Kashmiri demands?

NOT in 1947....when you sent in Lashkars along with your army to "free" Kashmir.....Please show us PROOF where Kashmiris petitioned the Pakistanis to do so....a notorized copy ratified by the majority of Kashmiris would be acceptable...something similar to the instrument of ascesion maybe? 

NOT in 1965....When operation Gibraltar failed due to the efforts of those very Kashmiris whom you claim to represent....else why would they inform the IA of Pakistani intrusion?

NOT when Pakistan sheepishly gave away parts of Kashmir to China.....certainly your idea of free and fair plebiscite proves to be a sham when you decide to whore away their land to be in China's good books....what happened to your favorite "Kashmiri right of self determination" bogey Maiser? or does that only apply to India?

Or lets say when your country decided to derail the peace process initiated by Vajpayee by sending in army regulars pretending to be Mujahideen? Did the Kashmiris send Pakistan a petition to do so?CERTAINLY NOT!
The golden opportunity of making good with us and a chance for Kashmiris to escape the quagmire was unilaterally shattered by Pakistan....without taking Kashmiri demands and sentiments about the same into consideration....what a shame!

If you think otherwise, please produce PROOF!

So moral of the story is....
When you claim that IA is suppressing the masses in Kashmir.....its presence is due to the Pakistani threat....NOT a move to crush a revolt in any way.....
The revolt has been a reaction to the army presence....something that began due to Pakistans beligerrance....

And whats even funnier is that when you try to spread the shpeel of "let the Kashmiris" decide....when ALL actions Pakistan has taken to date has been to benefit only itself WITHOUT the tacit approval of Kashmiris....

So please....spare us the sob story and lessons in morality....

If one wants to learn duplicity.....one should take lessons from our neighbor...LOL!

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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Karthic, you make no sense. Geelani called off protests in respect to the Sikh/Hindu community; there is no "permission". If the protests went ahead, I'm sure a good number of Kashmiri kids would be killed be the "security" forces to allow the Sikh/Hindu's celebrate divali.


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## Gandhi G in da house

Azad Kashmir said:


> Karthic, you make no sense. Geelani called off protests in respect to the Sikh/Hindu community; there is no "permission". If the protests went ahead, I'm sure a good number of Kashmiri kids would be killed be the "security" forces to allow the Sikh/Hindu's celebrate divali.



Ofcourse he makes sense . Why did gilani even plan in the first place to hold a protest on diwali if he respects the feelings of hindus and sikhs so much ? 

For the simple reason that he wanted people to come and request him/ beg him to call it off so that he could get the sadistic pleasure out of it of letting the world know who the boss is in Kashmir .

That is exactly what happened , isn't it ? He got that sick satisfaction in the end. He is a sick religious bigot. You can't convince us to believe otherwise. There is enough proof.


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## waraich66

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *Kashmiris demanding only right to self-determination: Gilani​*
> Srinagar, November 02 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Gilani has said that the Kashmiris are only demanding their right to self-determination promised to them by India.
> 
> Syed Ali Gilani in a statement issued in Srinagar said that the ongoing liberation movement had started to receive support from the Indian civil society. He said that even Indian Home Minister, P Chidambaram, and puppet Chief Minister of occupied Kashmir, Omar Abdullah, intentionally or unintentionally, had accepted some facts regarding the Kashmir dispute.
> 
> To mark the anniversary of massacre of Muslims in 1947 in Jammu, the veteran leader announced that the upcoming week would be commemorated as Martyrdom Week and urged the people to make the civil curfew call from November 6 successful. He said that through emails, Kashmiris should impress upon the US President, Barack Obama that peace would continue to elude South Asia and the threat of the war between nuclear powers, India and Pakistan, will linger on till the resolution of the Kashmir dispute,&#8221; he said.
> 
> Syed Ali Gilani has called off Friday strike in view of Diwali. He said, &#8220;Islam teaches us to respect sentiments of other communities. The Hindus and Sikhs are part and parcel of our society and we, from the core of our heart, respect their sentiments.&#8221;
> 
> Kashmiris demanding only right to self-determination: Gilani | Kashmir Media Service



India will never give right of self determination by strikes , Kashmiris should follow the strategy of Iqbal and Jinnah.

Pakistan ka matlab kiya 
La kar Rahain gai Pakistan.

Same salogan and sacrifice required for Kashmir Independence


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## KS

Azad Kashmir said:


> Karthic, you make no sense. Geelani called off protests in respect to the Sikh/Hindu community; there is no "permission". If the protests went ahead, I'm sure a good number of Kashmiri kids would be killed be the "security" forces to allow the Sikh/Hindu's celebrate divali.



Did you get the answer ??



> Ofcourse he makes sense . Why did gilani even plan in the first place to hold a protest on diwali if he respects the feelings of hindus and sikhs so much ?
> 
> For the simple reason that he wanted people to come and request him/ beg him to call it off so that he could get the sadistic pleasure out of it of letting the world know who the boss is in Kashmir .
> 
> That is exactly what happened , isn't it ? He got that sick satisfaction in the end. He is a sick religious bigot. You can't convince us to believe otherwise. There is enough proof.


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## Tshering22

Karthic Sri said:


> Did you get the answer ??


They till date have no answer to what happened in 89, Karthic. All this bollocks of self-determination is just that--- lies, deceit and propaganda. A few hundred thousand is "entire Kashmir" for Pakistanis whereas that's not even 20&#37; of the valley's population (not counting the exiled community in different parts of India).


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## Tshering22

> India will never give right of self determination by strikes , Kashmiris should follow the strategy of Iqbal and Jinnah.



You think they've been peaceful butchering more than 1 lakh "kafirs" and sending another 5 lakh packing? That's a weird definition you have for peaceful. There's no self-determination because Kashmir belongs to India straight. According to you entire India is disputed as if we care what you've to say.



> Pakistan ka matlab kiya
> La kar Rahain gai Pakistan.




Mil to gaya Pakistan. Ab kya chahiye? Jinko Kashmir mein nahi rehna hai woh Pakistan khushi se jaa sakte hain. Humein koi aapatti nahi. 



> Same salogan and sacrifice required for Kashmir Independence



Cry all they want and if they cross the threshold, they will get their reward as well.


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## LaBong

> Mil to gaya Pakistan. Ab kya chahiye? Jinko Kashmir mein nahi rehna hai woh Pakistan khushi se jaa sakte hain. Humein koi *aapatti *nahi.



Just curious, is aapatti a sikkimise/nepali word as well? It's a bengali word and proper hindi/urdu would be yethraj.


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## KS

Tshering22 said:


> They till date *have no answer to what happened in 89, Karthic. All this bollocks of self-determination is just that--- lies, deceit and propaganda*. A few hundred thousand is "entire Kashmir" for Pakistanis whereas that's not even 20% of the valley's population (not counting the exiled community in different parts of India).



Im not even going into the flagrant violations of 1947 resolutions,Shimla Agreement by Pakistan on various occasions because at the End of the day it is India that is controlling the territory and not anyone else and believe me WE ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE.

The welcome given to Shabir Shah in Jammu must put some sense in to the ppl who think this is not a religious problem and any religious supremacist BS will not be tolerated in India.


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## Omar1984

*Indian troopers appear at Kashmir Sikh village, ahead of Obamas visit
​*

SRINAGAR, (SANA): Just a few hours before U.S. President Obamas scheduled to land in India, uniformed men of Indian army, knocked doors amid crude abuses in an all-Sikh hamlet, Upalna and Hutmurah, in North Kashmirs Baramulla town and asked inhabitants to come out of their homes. 

An officer of the local army unit deployed in IHK has owned the act, saying that happened due to misunderstanding. 

Valleys Sikh leaders have expressed anguish over the incident and sought Chief Minister Omar Abdullahs intervention into the matter.

According to the Secretary Gurduwara Committee, Upalna, Sardar Amreekh Singh, a group of armed men, wearing army uniforms knocked at the doors of several houses including that of Gurmeet Singh, Inder Singh and Raviraj Singh.

He said that the army personnel had traveled to the village in a private vehicle that was later abandoned near a timber depot.

The Chairman of All Parties Hurriyat Conference (Ansari) Mirwaiz Umar Farooq also expressed concern over the incident. We appeal the members of Sikh community to remain cautious and watchful, he said. 

Mirwaiz asked the members of the majority community to take care of their Sikh brethren and keep a close watch on strangers until the President of United States Barack Obama is in India. We need to ensure that Chatisinghpora is not repeated, he added. 

Pertinently, at least 35 members of the Sikh community were massacred on March 20, 2000 when former US President Bill Clinton was visiting India. Authorities had claimed that militants had carried out the massacre but investigations later proved that it was the handiwork of government forces.


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## Omar1984

Sikhs stage a demonstration, in Hatmurrah village of Anantnag district on Saturday. Photo: Nissar Ahmad 


The Hindu : News / States : Sikh villagers stage protest in Kashmir


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## KS

*Pathetic,clumsy propaganda at its dubious best.*....




Thank God due to Indian Army,another heinous masscre like Chattisingpora in *which militants dressed in Indian Army fatigues massacred 35 innocent sikhs* was averted

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## Ammyy

Protest against shutdowns, Geelani tones down strike schedule
PTI

It was a protest with a difference as people from different parts of Kashmir Valley on Sunday converged at Lal Chowk in the heart of the city to register their opposition to continuing strike calls given by the separatists.

The protesters belonging to Jammu and Kashmir NGO Forum assembled at the Tourist Reception Centre (TRC) and moved in a convoy towards clock tower located at Lal Chowk where they hoisted a white flag -- a symbol of peace.

The rally was staged in protest against the continuous strikes called by separatist groups over the past few months which had brought normal life including education activities to a standstill in the Valley.

The participants, who held placards denouncing the frequent strikes, were attacked by a few stone-pelting miscreants who were chased away by police using batons and tear gas shells at some places.

This is the second protest against the strikes called by hardline Hurriyat Conference led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani since the ongoing unrest began in the Valley in June.

On September one, a political activist organised a students protest rally at Residence Road against continuing disruption of education system.

Hours after the protest, hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani issued a fresh calendar for next 12 days which surprisingly had only three days of strikes while the remaining nine days have been exempted from the purview of the stir.

*Earlier, hundreds of roadside vendors defied Geelanis call for a civil curfew today as they displayed their merchandise in the popular flea market of the city.*

*Geelani had announced a three-day civil curfew beginning with arrival of US President Barack Obama to India yesterday, but the vendors decided to defy it.*

*We have seen enough of strikes and curfews for the past four months and now we want to feed our families. We cannot go on forever like this, a vendor, who identified himself only as Khalid, told PTI.
*
The sentiments were echoed by many of Khalids fellow traders at the Sunday market, but they did not speak on record for the fear of reprisal from separatist elements.

*Pressure had been mounting on Geelani to review his strike schedule as a little-known outfit Jammu and Kashmir Ittehadi Islami had circulated posters in the city giving a two-day ultimatum to the separatists to call off the unending cycle of strikes as it was only harming the economy of the Valley.*

*According to official estimates, the state economy has suffered losses to the tune of Rs 27,000 crore during the recent agitation in the Valley. Most of the losses were suffered on account of taxes and levies which could not be collected.*

However, industry sources put the losses around Rs 40,000 crore in terms of lost business opportunities over the past five months. More than 60,000 youth have been rendered jobless, mostly in the hotel industry, which depends on tourism -- the worst hit sector due to the strikes and curfews in the Valley.

The non-Kashmiri labourers also suffered immense losses as most of two lakh skilled and unskilled workforce from UP, West Bengal, Punjab, Bihar and Orissa fled the Valley after the protests intensified at the peack of the working season.

Kashmir Valley has been in the grip of protests, strikes and curfew since June when a 17-year-old boy was killed by a tear smoke shell allegedly fired by police at Rajouri Kadal area of the city.

The Hindu : News / National : Protest against shutdowns, Geelani tones down strike schedule

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## Toshiba

gilani doesnt have knowledge of local needs,and he claims to be the voice of kashmir


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## Ammyy

*what other sources say *

People have committing crimes by calling for strikes and clashes. We are unable to work. We want to lead a peaceful life, said Shabir Ahmad, a local.

The protestors also slammed separatist outfit Hurriyat Conference and its leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani for his failure to resolve the Kashmir issue with a pragmatic approach.

We want to tell them (Hurriyat), especially Geelani, why are poor people suffering? Why they dont come on streets as we have come? Why they dont want to solve the Kashmir dispute? said Shabnum, another local. (ANI)

Kashmiris protest against shutdown calls of separatists in Valley

Situation remains normal in Kashmir Valley despite no curfew

Situation remains normal in Kashmir - One News Page [India] Business


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## Jade

&#8220;We have seen enough of strikes and curfews for the past four months and now we want to feed our families. We cannot go on forever like this,&#8221; Khalid, a vendor.

Sums up all. Faster the so called separatist recognize this, the better is for Kashmir


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## Ammyy

*Syed ali shad Gillani is the one who told people to not send their children to school *

And he represent people of Kashmir ........Great

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## Peacefulll

The normal Kashmiri just wants to move on with life. He yearns for a return to the days of the pre-1990s when tourists used to flock to the 'paradise on earth' and the valley used to be one of the most peaceful places in the country. It is only after 1990, when insurgency actually started, that things began going downhill. For 40+ years, things were fine, people were happy.

One of these days, this fellow Geelani will be lynched by a mob of Kashmiris. They have had about enough of his political shenanigans and his selfish call to violence, depriving thousands of peace, security and income.


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## WAQAS119

Bwahahahahha

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## Toshiba

WAQAS119 said:


> Bwahahahahha

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## The Clarifier

I don't understand why all Indians believe Kashmiris love india, etc, etc

I know Indian kashmiris and they don wanna be wit mother India.

lol

Inshallah Kashmir gets independence.

Ameen.

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## Ammyy

J-K: Anti-strike activists protest, hoist white flag in Lal Chowk

Agencies Tags : Anti strike activists protest, Lal Chowk, Jammu and Kashmir Posted: Sun Nov 07 2010, 15:44 hrs Srinagar: 

Around 100 activists belonging to Jammu and Kashmir NGO Forum on Sunday staged a protest rally in Lal Chowk area of Srinagar against the continuous strikes called by separatist groups over the past few months, but their leader was attacked by some youths.

Nearly 25 vehicles carrying the protestors, who had come from various parts of the Valley, assembled at Tourist Reception Centre (TRC) ground here, official sources said.

Holding placards denouncing the frequent strikes, the car rally then proceeded towards the Clock Tower in Lal Chowk area, the sources said.

One of the protestors hoisted a white flag, symbolising peace, atop the Clock Tower, they said.

As the organiser of the rally Bashir Ahmad  formerly associated with a national political party -- was talking to reporters, a group of youths beat him up and forced the anti-strike protestors to flee. 

Ahmad was bleeding from the mouth before being rescued by police personnel providing security cover to the rally.

An agitated youth also removed the white flag and set it ablaze. Police detained the youth who brought down the flag while chasing away his other accomplices.

Several groups of people appeared from nearby Kokerbazar, Maisuma and Court road localities and raised slogans and started throwing stones at the police personnel.

Police burst teargas shells and used batons to bring the situation under control.

This is second protest against the strikes called by hardline Hurriyat Conference led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani since the ongoing unrest began in the valley in June.

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## somebozo

Geelani is utter stupid..why will someone close their bread and butter??

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## Frankenstein

I neither watch news nor take intrust in politics, just live my life as always, Indians knows about our government, more then me 

Ise khate han na ke tum apne ghar ko deekho, aur hame apne ghar ko deekhne do, aur bila wajha jankne se gurhaz karo

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## nForce

somebozo said:


> Geelani is utter stupid..why will someone close their bread and butter??



Because he is a delusional person unable to change with the changing time..He still thinks he is living in the 1980s....His Hurriyat is also a dying organization.Not even a single new leader has come up in years.


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## Capt.Popeye

DRDO said:


> *what other sources say *
> 
> People have committing crimes by calling for strikes and clashes. We are unable to work. We want to lead a peaceful life, said Shabir Ahmad, a local.
> 
> The protestors also slammed separatist outfit Hurriyat Conference and its leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani for his failure to resolve the Kashmir issue with a pragmatic approach.
> 
> We want to tell them (Hurriyat), especially Geelani, why are poor people suffering? Why they dont come on streets as we have come? Why they dont want to solve the Kashmir dispute? said Shabnum, another local. (ANI)
> 
> Kashmiris protest against shutdown calls of separatists in Valley
> 
> Situation remains normal in Kashmir Valley despite no curfew
> 
> Situation remains normal in Kashmir - One News Page [India] Business



Never mind the politics. Geelani has nothing to lose because of these strikes/shutdowns. His sources of income is well-assured; he has a tax liability of Indian Rs. 1.73 crores. So you can guess the kind of "moolah" the old man has.

It is the small shop-keepers who are really hurting. Their means of livelihood is completely destroyed, while the average Kashmiri citizen also has problems to take care of his daily needs; thanks to Geelani. How long can they live like this? What Geelani is doing does not hurt people in the rest of India. It is only hitting his own people; and very hard at that.

Of course if Arundhati Roy wishes to, she can use her Booker Prize money (which was a big packet) to mitigate the economic problems of the common Kashmiri citizen. The politicos are all very well off, they deserve no consideration whatsoever.


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## American Pakistani

DRDO said:


> J-K: Anti-strike activists protest, hoist white flag in Lal Chowk
> 
> Agencies Tags : Anti strike activists protest, Lal Chowk, Jammu and Kashmir Posted: Sun Nov 07 2010, 15:44 hrs Srinagar:
> 
> Around 100 activists belonging to Jammu and Kashmir NGO Forum on Sunday staged a protest rally in Lal Chowk area of Srinagar against the continuous strikes called by separatist groups over the past few months, but their leader was attacked by some youths.
> 
> Nearly 25 vehicles carrying the protestors, who had come from various parts of the Valley, assembled at Tourist Reception Centre (TRC) ground here, official sources said.
> 
> Holding placards denouncing the frequent strikes, the car rally then proceeded towards the Clock Tower in Lal Chowk area, the sources said.
> 
> One of the protestors hoisted a white flag, symbolising peace, atop the Clock Tower, they said.
> 
> As the organiser of the rally Bashir Ahmad  formerly associated with a national political party -- was talking to reporters, a group of youths beat him up and forced the anti-strike protestors to flee.
> 
> Ahmad was bleeding from the mouth before being rescued by police personnel providing security cover to the rally.
> 
> An agitated youth also removed the white flag and set it ablaze. Police detained the youth who brought down the flag while chasing away his other accomplices.
> 
> Several groups of people appeared from nearby Kokerbazar, Maisuma and Court road localities and raised slogans and started throwing stones at the police personnel.
> 
> Police burst teargas shells and used batons to bring the situation under control.
> 
> This is second protest against the strikes called by hardline Hurriyat Conference led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani since the ongoing unrest began in the valley in June.



India nay 1948 say kitna zoor laga lia, kitna jhoot bol dia per saath saal baad bhi Kashmir mein aik hi aawaaz hai azadi ki, india kitni hi hatdharmi gunda gardi aur chaal baazi karlay Kashmir azadi milnay tak thanda nahi hone wala. Balkay ab doosri states jesay k Assam bhi Pakistan kay saath ilhaq chahti hai.
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On3F5dd5KKs&feature=related


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## TATA

There is no role or religious leaders in the politics.

Religious leaders should not join politics what will happen if Pope joins politics or Shankaracharya or Akal Takt. 

There are two facts:

1. Apart from some type of Muslims nobody cares about these khalifas because religion is a personal matter of a individual.

2. Geelani is misusing its religious position of a custodian of a holy place in Kashmir for politics and which is shameful.

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## Masterchief

Ah gilani, who cares for him?


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## Peacefulll

Assam? Did some Pakistani really bring up Assam here?

And then, when we start talking about Balochistan, Sindh, Pashtunistan, real Azadi for "Azad" Kashmir and hundred other things, they will accuse us of going off topic.


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## KS

No wonder....all the cries of "Azadi" vapourises when there is no roti to eat.

The Kashmiris(those section who cry for azadi) should realise no one really cares for their cry - not the average Indian,not the GoI,not the world community and all the hoarse cries of Azadi cant get you one decent meal unless you work for it.

Get up and smell the cofee guys.

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## Trichy

Omar1984 said:


> *He said that the army personnel had traveled to the village in a private vehicle that was later abandoned near a timber depot.*



Why the Indian Army Personals come in Private Vehicle??? That too a Question mark?



Omar1984 said:


> Pertinently, at least 35 members of the Sikh community were massacred on March 20, 2000 when former US President Bill Clinton was visiting India. Authorities had claimed that militants had carried out the massacre but *investigations later proved* that it was the handiwork of government forces.



Which Investigation Proved that a handy work by GoI?? Care to explain???


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## Vassnti

It is all well and good for the rent a crowds and the paid stone throwers, they arent the ones that have to strugle to put the food on the table for thier families. 



> We have seen enough of strikes and curfews for the past four months and now we want to feed our families. We cannot go on forever like this



Sort of summed it up, you cant feed a child independance when it is crying with hunger.

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## Y2A

WHF said:


> Ohhhhhhhh comon till a decade back leaders would formmulate ides on how to defeat IA and capture kashmir by force not only kashmir byt fly the green flag on new delhi, but yeah as the bubble has been broken now u guys want to be on the negotiating table and talk of humanity and peace...
> 
> Where was humanity when 4 lakh pandits were driven away from their homes??where wa umanity when bloody in humane tribals raided and raped kashmiris??whare was humanity when sand dwellers destroyed the sub continent's culture and heritage.Muslims leaders are multi faced ,from israel to kashmir u guys only talk of peace whn u lose all the wars..



wow..nice...vey... nice....did you write it yourself or it was like friday homework..? and mama was providing the helping hand..?

any ways, i was away for a littile while and when i came back i found another ...ahh ..well i would rather not use the word which is coming in my mind right now, just give me a PM i will tell what poped up after reviewing your reply...i dont know why you guys can't grow up and look life and history beyond 5th grade...

how many of 400,000 (hint: it means four lakhs) pandits complained of not being resetled..? didn't your goverment treat them thier "own" ..humainaty was there observing it...

when you guys will go in higher classes and there will be some brains left in you you'll find out that tribals only raided after brave bharti saina invaded kashmir, Pakistan only reacted to imperal mindset of grabing more land and against wishfull attempts of saving of what had been left of pitty bharat mata..i didnt mean to upset you boy but thats the it is....

self detemination and freedom is right of every human being, you can supress it for a while but you can't deny it for forever, sooner or later right always prevails.


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## twoplustwoisfour

Y2A said:


> wow..nice...vey... nice....did you write it yourself or it was like friday homework..? and mama was providing the helping hand..?
> 
> any ways, i was away for a littile while and when i came back i found another ...ahh ..well i would rather not use the word which is coming in my mind right now, just give me a PM i will tell what poped up after reviewing your reply...i dont know why you guys can't grow up and look life and history beyond 5th grade...
> 
> how many of 400,000 (hint: it means four lakhs) pandits complained of not being resetled..? didn't your goverment treat them thier "own" ..humainaty was there observing it...
> 
> when you guys will go in higher classes and there will be some brains left in you you'll find out that tribals only raided after brave bharti saina invaded kashmir, Pakistan only reacted to imperal mindset of grabing more land and against wishfull attempts of saving of what had been left of pitty bharat mata..i didnt mean to upset you boy but thats the it is....
> 
> self detemination and freedom is right of every human being, you can supress it for a while but you can't deny it for forever, sooner or later right always prevails.



From your condescending tone I can guess that your exile was not a self imposed one.

Kindly do some background research and add some valuable inputs to discussions instead of trolling.


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## HinduAtheist

Y2A said:


> wow..nice...vey... nice....did you write it yourself or it was like friday homework..? and mama was providing the helping hand..?
> 
> any ways, i was away for a littile while and when i came back i found another ...ahh ..well i would rather not use the word which is coming in my mind right now, just give me a PM i will tell what poped up after reviewing your reply...i dont know why you guys can't grow up and look life and history beyond 5th grade...
> 
> how many of 400,000 (hint: it means four lakhs) pandits complained of not being resetled..? didn't your goverment treat them thier "own" ..humainaty was there observing it...
> 
> when you guys will go in higher classes and there will be some brains left in you you'll find out *that tribals only raided after brave bharti saina invaded kashmir, Pakistan only reacted to imperal mindset of grabing more land and against wishfull attempts of saving of what had been left of pitty bharat mata..i didnt mean to upset you boy but thats the it is....*



purestanis forget to mention the older inhabitants of Kashmir 

Example) The Mahabharat explains how the Kambojas ruled with the capital being "Rajapura"

Later the Panchalas ruled 

Then the Mauryan emperor Ashoka etc. 

*Islam was only introduced to the land in the beginning of the 14th century* 




> self detemination and freedom is right of every human being, you can supress it for a while but you can't deny it for forever, sooner or later right always prevails.



Try telling that to Tibetans as well.. Oh wait they're not Muslims though.


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## Y2A

twoplustwoisfour said:


> From your condescending tone I can guess that your exile was not a self imposed one.
> 
> Kindly do some background research and add some valuable inputs to discussions instead of trolling.



valuable inputs..? mate try and come out of dilema you are in, call centre rpresentative's version of condescending doesn't affinate me at all, plus instead of suggesting show me what you got in light of your "valuable inputs" and "back ground" research while doing so go through my earlier posts carefully, excile or no excile trolling is a copy book trade of ciriculam of indian education system, guys study it all the way and find a call centre job to later come with sarcastic suggetions.


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## GUNNER

*What Obama and Manmohan Said On Kashmir !*


*NEW DELHI, Nov 8, 2010 (AFP)* - President Barack Obama said Monday that the United States could not impose a solution on Kashmir or other issues in the volatile India-Pakistan relationship.

"I believe both Pakistan and India have an interest in reducing tensions between the two countries," Obama said when asked about the Kashmir dispute at a press conference after he met Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

But he added: "The United States cannot impose a solution on these problems."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

*This is the verbaticm transcript of President Obama's answer to a query on Kashmir;*



*"With respect to Kashmir, obviously this is the long standing dispute between India and Pakistan. As I said yesterday, I believe that both Pakistan and India have an interest in reducing tensions between the two countries. 

United States cannot impose a solution to these problems. But I have indicated to Prime Minister Singh that we are happy to play any role that the two countries think is appropriate in reducing these tensions. 

Thats in the interest of the region, its in the interest of the two countries involved and it is in the interest of the United States of America. 

So, my hope is that conversations will be taking place between the two countries that may not start at that particular flashpoint, there may be confidence building measures that need to take place, but I am absolutely convinced that it is both in India and Pakistans interests to reduce tensions that will enable them I think to focus on the range of both challenges and opportunities that India and Pakistan faces."* 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what Mr Manmohan had to say on the same question;


"*We are committed to resolve all outstanding issues between out two countries including the word K. We are not afraid of that. But it is our request that you cannot simultaneously talking and at the same time the terrorism machine is as active as ever before. Once Pakistan moves away from this terror-induced equation, we will be very happy to engage productively with Pakistan to resolve all outstanding issues*."

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## Markus

^ I personally feel that both these leaders are not on the same page.

What do others think?


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## muse

I will agree with Markus - I do think there is a strong "disconnect" on the issue between the US and India.

There is a speech in Parliament and perhaps some succor for the hosts may be expected there.

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## The HBS Guy

Markus said:


> ^ I personally feel that both these leaders are not on the same page.
> 
> What do others think?



Well let me simplify this to the best of my ability.

*Obama:* We will mediate only if both the countries want us to mediate and not unilaterally (we simply can't). Apart from mediation, we will keep nudging both India and Pak to keep talking to each other.

*MMS:* We will talk about Kashmir once cross-border terrorism stops. We cannot talk with a gun pointed at our head. Any third party mediation is not wanted (long-stated position of India).


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## Markus

KingKong31 said:


> Well let me simplify this to the best of my ability.
> 
> *Obama:* We will mediate only if both the countries want us to mediate and not unilaterally (we simply can't). *Apart from mediation, we will keep nudging both India and Pak to keep talking to each other.
> *
> *MMS:* We will talk about Kashmir once cross-border terrorism stops. We cannot talk with a gun pointed at our head. Any third party mediation is not wanted (long-stated position of India).



If the bold above is correct then that means that Obama does not understand Indian concerns at all. We want him to put pressure on Pakistan to act against terror affecting India.


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## Y2A

HinduAtheist said:


> purestanis forget to mention the older inhabitants of Kashmir
> 
> Example) The Mahabharat explains how the Kambojas ruled with the capital being "Rajapura"
> 
> Later the Panchalas ruled
> 
> Then the Mauryan emperor Ashoka etc.
> 
> *Islam was only introduced to the land in the beginning of the 14th century*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Try telling that to Tibetans as well.. Oh wait they're not Muslims though.





with all due respect to holy scripture of mahabharat i would rather give reference of something more authentic, typical imperailist way of thinking that someone's grand^100 father lived some where for grand 1000 yrs so his grand^100 son has the right to claim the place a grand joke..! 
any ways keep telling the tales...wetaher listners are tibatians or utopians



> Islam was only introduced to the land in the beginning of the 14th century


reset your callender....


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## GUNNER

Markus said:


> If the bold above is correct then that means that Obama does not understand Indian concerns at all. We want him to put pressure on Pakistan to act against terror affecting India.



This is one point where i believe Indians haven't been able to get what they wanted from Obama, and many people including the hawkish media outlets have expressed their disappointment.


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## Markus

GUNNER said:


> This is one point where i believe Indians haven't been able to get what they wanted from Obama, and many people including the hawkish media outlets have expressed their disappointment.



Yes, both seem a little out of sync out in the open. 

But we will never come to know as to what happened behind the closed doors.

US needs Pakistan now and cannot say anything in the open and surely PM Manmohan Singh understands that.


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## somebozo

Pakistani terror machine is the hyper fobia of India because they have used similar tactics and are not afraid of being bitten back by same dog! Dissolve India for peace in south Asia!


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## SpArK

muse said:


> I will agree with Markus - I do think there is a strong "disconnect" on the issue between the US and India.
> 
> There is a speech in Parliament and perhaps some succor for the hosts may be expected there.



There wont be anything said in parliament for sure.

Why would US spoil the relationship it has with Pakistan.. They have a road map ahead for greater things and I believe Indian administration has been duly notified regarding that. So I dont expect any thing stupid said , to get a few handicapping and a newspaper heading .


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## Markus

somebozo said:


> Pakistani terror machine is the hyper fobia of India because they have used similar tactics and are not afraid of being bitten back by same dog! Dissolve India for peace in south Asia!



Your one-liners and two-liners are really getting boring now.

Try something new.

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## Markus

muse said:


> I will agree with Markus - I do think there is a *strong "disconnect*" on the issue between the US and India.
> 
> There is a speech in Parliament and perhaps some succor for the hosts may be expected there.



Just to add, I wouldn't say its a strong disconnect, just a little out-of-sync they seem to be.


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## muse

Well I saw their press conference and Obama came out asking for peace, Singh came out sounding like a Israeli - in the sense that he wants the results of negotiations before the negotiations take place.

So, whatever the characterization, they did seem to be on different pages - now it may be that Singh has domestic political compulsions and we should be mindful of that

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## HinduAtheist

Markus said:


> Your one-liners and two-liners are really getting boring now.
> 
> Try something new.



Something I've learned since I've been on this site.

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## GUNNER

BENNY said:


> There wont be anything said in parliament for sure.
> 
> Why would US spoil the relationship it has with Pakistan.. They have a road map ahead for greater things and I believe Indian administration has been duly notified regarding that. So I dont expect any thing stupid said , to get a few handicapping and a newspaper heading .



I agree to that. Obama has tried his best to avoid 'Pakistan' and 'Kashmir' during the trip, suggesting to me that he doesn't want to alienate either Pakistan or India. He only mentioned it when he was aksed pointed questions, first at St Xavier's and then today at the joint presser. Obviously, he is not in India for this purpose. 

As far as his address in the parlaiment is concerned, i think there is only one issue to which Indians are looking forward now and that is the UNSC seat which he hasn't addressed so far.

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## muse

He did say that the UNSC should reflect present day realities and I take from this statement that some succor will be offered but I will be amazed, stunned, floored, if he commits the US to what the Indian are seeking.

Also I hope you guys caught what he had to say about the relationship being (fill in the blanks) to meet the "challenge of our times" or something like that - anybody got a full transcript of the four questions and their answers??


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## dabong1

captonjohn said:


> *No...... the indian army never killed and raped the Kashmiri Pandits.....they killed and raped the muslims kashmiris and made one and half million into refugees.*
> 
> Can you give any reliable source and proof for this that Indian army killed muslim kashmiris?[/B]



Go to any international human rights site and get the figures!......no pont me putting them up as there going to be "propoganda".




captonjohn said:


> And by the way if you talk about **** and murder of muslims then why not to discuss about baloch people? They are also muslims but pakistani army which is a muslim majority is killing their muslim brothers. You tell kashmiri that we are brothers because we are muslims then why in 1948 pakistani army supported and attacked on kashmir and killed thousands of muslims. Don't tell lie that you were not, if you want proof then see UN resolutions whose copy is posted in this forum.[/B]



Well why dont we start with you indians killing the sikhs in punjab,burning christians and oppressing the people of Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram, Nagaland, and Tripura which are also hindus....why are you killing your brother hindus?
As for the UN.....you guys took it to the UN not us.





captonjohn said:


> *And the freedom fighters only kill those that support the indian armys occupation.*
> 
> Can you tell me how a women who don't even read and write properly can support or help Indian army or spy for indian army? There are several cases in which your muslim terrorists killed and raped muslim woman's and nobody raise any issue on that. What about baloch protest? I can say that pakistani army is continuously killing and raping muslim woman then why don't you see yourself first and then point to others?[/B]



So your trying to compare a few cases in pakistan to hundreds of thousands of ****-murder in IOK?




captonjohn said:


> *You tried to chop a piece of kashmir off......but failed.*
> 
> NOT we tried but you tried to swallow whole kashmir but failed to do so expressing your frustration here. This is well known that in 1948 pakistani army with the help of tribesman attacked on Kashmir and it united with India.[/B]



So the last few decades of killings that are no match for the 1947 war are more important......how come the kashmiris are not supporting you indians now and have been protesting and fighting for two decades.






captonjohn said:


> *At least you show yout true colours.......*
> Will time tell about our true color man, wait.[/B]



Yellow by any chance.





captonjohn said:


> *Let me guess......you spend nights and nights in kashmir and know more about it then the people that live there.*
> And tell me how many nights you've spend in kashmir? Ohh I forgot you spent more nights then me in the form of terrorist.
> 
> 
> *Well we learnt from your hindu brothers in sri lanka about suicide bombings.*
> So finally you accepted that you are a terrorist group because from a terrorist organization like LTTE you can learn only to kill.
> 
> *The same prize the lady that blew up rajiv gandhi gets*
> If this is it then wait and see because if you don't wake up now, you'll get the price which LTTE got in recent years and it get vanished from whole Shri Lanka.
> 
> By the way I also believe that you deserve for this price.



Its just you indian need to know that suicide bombing is not exclusive to muslims but has been done by other faiths way before the muslims.


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## Ammyy

*Kashmiri demand self determination ????*


Read this 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/79535-shop-keeper-defied-geelani-s-call-civil-curfew.html


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## Mirza Jatt

*Infiltration bid foiled, two militants killed in Kupwara*

Srinagar: An infiltration bid was foiled and two militants were killed by the Army near the Line of Control in Tangdhar sector of Kupwara district of Jammu and Kashmir on Monday.

Army troops noticed some suspicious movement along the LoC and laid an ambush in Tangdhar, 175 kms from here, a defence spokesman said.

He said as soon as the troops intercepted the heavily-armed militants, they fired on the army personnel.

The gunfire was retaliated, triggering an encounter between the two sides, the spokesman said.

"Two unidentified militants have been killed so far," he said adding, the operation was in progress when reports last came in. 

Read more at: Infiltration bid foiled, two militants killed in Kupwara

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## The HBS Guy

Great news


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## SpArK



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## riju78

"There are different types of duties I can now be sent to do," says the man we have come to meet, but whose identity we have to conceal.
"I can be kept here in the reserves, be asked to recruit new members, or they can send me across into Indian-held Kashmir for jihad," he says.
Until the spring, this 25-year-old had been studying engineering; now he is a militant. 
As he describes why he left his studies, he quotes from the Koran and repeats justifications for his choice, which have clearly been taught to him.
"While I was at university, I started going to sermons given by preachers and, thank God, I joined a jihadi group," he says. 
"I went to a training camp with hundreds of others for three months. Now I'm ready to do whatever they ask me, to win all of Kashmir for Pakistan.
"The Indians are killing our brothers and sisters. If everyone sits around doing nothing, who will bring liberation?
"God willing, our blood will bring change," the young man adds.
He tells me his family are happy about his choice, and that they will be proud if he becomes a martyr and goes to heaven.
But that turns out not to be the case. After much persuasion, he allows us to meet his mother.
'Brainwashed'"Only over my dead body will my son go for jihad," she says.
She tells us that she thought her son was going for Koranic teaching but that she was horrified to find that he had, in fact, had militant training.
"I pray to God to keep him here and not let him go. I won't let him," she adds.
And the man's brother, we find, is furious. 
"He is a different person since he went to the training camp; the way he talks and dresses. They have brainwashed him.
"If Pakistan wants to fight India, why doesn't it do it through its army, why does it have to use boys like my brother?" he says.
The implication being that it is the Pakistani state that is behind the radicalisation and preparation of his brother as a militant.
In 1947, India was partitioned. Muslim-majority Indian states formed the new nation of Pakistan. But in the hastiness of the split, the fate of Kashmir, whose population was more than three-quarters Muslim, was never fully resolved. 
In the late 1940s, the United Nations had demanded that India allow a vote in Kashmir so people there could decide upon their future. India said it agreed, but the poll was never held.
The territory is now split between the two regional powers. They have fought wars for its overall control, but in the last 20 years, an insurgency has also taken root.
There was a time when it was an open secret that the Pakistani authorities were directly supporting militancy in Kashmir.
But now Pakistan claims those days are over.
"I assure you, as a state, as a government, there is no such policy of training Kashmiri militants to be sent across [to Indian-administered Kashmir]," Pakistan's Interior Minister, Rehman Malik, tells me.
He says that because of the monitoring of his government, militant groups have been brought under control, that they are no longer a threat to India, and that fighters cannot cross into the Indian-run side of Kashmir.
When I tell him about the militant we had met, and the organised training camp he had talked of, Mr Malik admitted there might be "some non-state groups" still operating.
'Supporting militancy'But most people living in Pakistani-administered Kashmir will say the government is not telling the full story.
"The intelligence agencies in Pakistan are still fully supporting and financing militant groups here and the government is completely aware," says Zahid Habib Sheikh, from the Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF).
"They will tell you there are no training camps but, of course, there are. This has always been Pakistan's Kashmir strategy, but it is a selfish policy that has only damaged our cause," he adds.
Mr Sheikh says he feels Pakistan is supporting militancy here not for the sake of Kashmiris, but to keep India engaged in conflict, and to use the militants as a bargaining chip in negotiations.
"Pakistan has also turned what should be a nationalist cause, about human rights abuses by India, into a religious cause," he says.
The organisation he belongs to re-launched its "Quit Kashmir" campaign earlier this year. It calls for both India and Pakistan to end their involvement in the region.
In what is traditionally protest season in Pakistani-administered Kashmir, where all political groups hold rallies, the march by JKLF was one of the biggest in Muzaffarabad, blocking the centre of the city.
People across Pakistani-administered Kashmir are united in their anger over the recent deaths of over a hundred Kashmiris in the Indian-administered side, killed while protesting against Indian control. 
Just as we are leaving Muzaffarabad, after the "Quit Kashmir" rally, we hear crowd noise coming from a marketplace.
There, in the middle of the day, stands a bearded man on a platform, surrounded by armed men in military-type fatigues.
Scores of people have gathered to listen to what he has to say, and respond to his slogans by chanting them back.
He is a senior militant leader, openly urging new recruits to step forward. Undoubtedly more of them will.
UPDATE: Pakistan's Ministry of Foreign Affairs released a statement after this article's publication saying "When his attention was drawn to a recent BBC report alleging existence of terrorist training camps in AJK [Azad Jammu and Kashmir], the [ministry] spokesman termed the report as baseless and malicious." 
BBC News - Kashmiri militant groups still recruiting in Pakistan


Indian media reported this before quoting BBC Urdu but was ridiculed as usual

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## Toshiba

nthing will happen frm this,they are trying this frm 20 yrs..........


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## The HBS Guy

Toshiba said:


> nthing will happen frm this,they are trying this frm 20 yrs..........



Let them come. We will shoot them dead. Plain and simple.

Jo aayega, Goli Khayega


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## vikramaditya AC

They r just giving free real target practicing for IA...
Let IA enjoy,please recruit more!!!!!

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## S_O_C_O_M

*Geelani: Indian canot suppress Kashmiris' struggle ​*





Written by KMS 
Monday, 08 November 2010 15:50 

Srinagar, November 08, 2010: All Parties Hurriyat Conference Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani has reiterated that India will never succeed in subduing the people of Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK) in their struggle for the right of Self-Determination that will continue till its logical conclusion.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani in a statement issued in Srinagar said that the ongoing movement in the occupied territory had brought the OSJK dispute to focus at the global level. He stated that besides the international community, the people of India had realized that the Kashmiris had been peacefully fighting against Indias illegal occupation of Jammu and Kashmir and not against any particular community.

Mirwaiz Umar Farooq said that the world community should play an effective role to resolve the Kashmir dispute. He pointed out that settlement of the lingering dispute was imperative for permanent peace in the region. On the other hand, complete shutdown was observed across the territory for the third successive day, today, call for which had been given by Syed Ali Shah Geelani to attract attention of the US President, Barack Obama towards the situation in Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir.





The occupation authorities continued to place Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Shabbir Ahmed Shah, Nayeem Ahmed Khan and other Hurriyat leaders under house arrest.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani has maintained that the ongoing movement has brought Kashmiris right of Self-Determination at the centre-stage. Syed Ali Shah Geelani in a statement issued in Srinagar said, due to the present movement the world has realized that there is a place (Jammu & Kashmir) where people have taken to streets to fight for Azadi from Indian occupation, which has been endorsed long back by the international community.

He said that the United Nations in 1947 had recognized the Kashmiris right of Self-Determination by passing several resolutions in this regard and even the then leadership of India and Pakistan had acknowledged it. He stated that besides the international community, the people of India had also realized that the Kashmiris had been peacefully fighting against Indias illegal occupation of Jammu and Kashmir and not against any particular community.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani had said that the "Quit Kashmir Movement" had been taking different forms since 1947. However, he added, in June 2010, the Kashmiris faced a serious situation when Indian troopers started a killing spree in the occupied Valley. People, including women and children, took to streets to register their protest against the killing of civilians. The protests shattered the power corridors in New Delhi, he said.





Syed Ali Shah Geelani announced a fresh 12-day calendar in connection with the ongoing "Quit Kashmir Movement". He said that there would be shutdown on November 11, 13 and 15 (Thursday, Saturday and Monday). He appealed for peaceful protests after Friday prayers on November 12 against the human rights violations by the troops in the occupied territory. However, he said, from Tuesday to Saturday (November 16 to November 20), there will be no shutdown in view of Eid-ul-Azha.

He pointed out that positives of the ongoing movement would play an effective role in the final resolution of the Kashmir dispute. He stated that some minor changes should not be construed as an end of the movement, adding, I want to assure the people that their sacrifices would not be allowed to go waste at any cost.

Felicitating Kashmiris on the eve of Eid, Syed Ali Shah Geelani urged them to offer the congregational prayers at Dargah Hazratbal. Eid-ul-Azha teaches us to be ready for any kind of sacrifices. Hazrat Ibrahim (AS) should be the role model for the Ummah and inspire us to carry forward the movement, despite all odds, he added.

Indian troops, in their fresh act of state terrorism, martyred two innocent Kashmiri youth in Kupwara district. The troops killed the youth in Tangdhar area of the district during a siege and search operation, which continued till last reports came in.

On the other hand, people took to the streets in Bandipora and staged protests to press for the release of six youth arrested by Indian forces during a nocturnal raid. The police had detained six youth including three brothers from various localities of Bandipora during the intervening night of Saturday and Sunday.

People in Hajin held protests against the arrest of three youth, a week ago. Residents of Sonawari told media men that the CRPF troops barged into residential houses during night time and harassed the youth, who were preparing for their exams.





The Senior Vice Chairman of Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front-R (JKLF-R), Javed Ahmad Mir, has appealed to the US President, Barack Obama, to impress upon India to resolve the Kashmir dispute.

Javed Ahmad Mir in a statement issued in Srinagar said that the settlement of the longstanding dispute was vital to the peace and stability in South Asia. The bilateral efforts to resolve the lingering dispute have failed. The dispute has consumed three generations of Kashmiris and it is high time for its resolution through US involvement, he added.

The JKLF-R leader emphasised that the US President should take cognisance of gross human rights violations committed by Indian troops across the occupied territory. He urged India to shun its rigid stand on Kashmir and resolve the dispute according to the aspirations of the Kashmiri people.


Geelani: Indian canot suppress Kashmiris' struggle

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## Toshiba




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## Trichy

Plus 2, to gods feet..


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## Capt.Popeye

Indian Jatt said:


> *Infiltration bid foiled, two militants killed in Kupwara*
> 
> Srinagar: An infiltration bid was foiled and two militants were killed by the Army near the Line of Control in Tangdhar sector of Kupwara district of Jammu and Kashmir on Monday.
> 
> Army troops noticed some suspicious movement along the LoC and laid an ambush in Tangdhar, 175 kms from here, a defence spokesman said.
> 
> He said as soon as the troops intercepted the heavily-armed militants, they fired on the army personnel.
> 
> The gunfire was retaliated, triggering an encounter between the two sides, the spokesman said.
> 
> "Two unidentified militants have been killed so far," he said adding, the operation was in progress when reports last came in.
> 
> Read more at: Infiltration bid foiled, two militants killed in Kupwara




Great! Another two "Tourists" sent off on a "budget holiday" to paradise.


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## sasuke

a lesser burden on mother nature... less violence for the rest of the world!!!


Good job!! ... Good job!! (Hancock style )


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## GUNNER

*Kashmirs Fruits of Discord*

*By ARUNDHATI ROY*

*Published: November 8, 2010*

A WEEK before he was elected in 2008, President Obama said that solving the dispute over Kashmirs struggle for self-determination  which has led to three wars between India and Pakistan since 1947  would be among his critical tasks. His remarks were greeted with consternation in India, and he has said almost nothing about Kashmir since then. 

But on Monday, during his visit here, he pleased his hosts immensely by saying the United States would not intervene in Kashmir and announcing his support for Indias seat on the United Nations Security Council. While he spoke eloquently about threats of terrorism, he kept quiet about human rights abuses in Kashmir. 

Whether Mr. Obama decides to change his position on Kashmir again depends on several factors: how the war in Afghanistan is going, how much help the United States needs from Pakistan and whether the government of India goes aircraft shopping this winter. (An order for 10 Boeing C-17 Globemaster III aircraft, worth $5.8 billion, among other huge business deals in the pipeline, may ensure the presidents silence.) But neither Mr. Obamas silence nor his intervention is likely to make the people in Kashmir drop the stones in their hands. 

I was in Kashmir 10 days ago, in that beautiful valley on the Pakistani border, home to three great civilizations  Islamic, Hindu and Buddhist. Its a valley of myth and history. Some believe that Jesus died there; others that Moses went there to find the lost tribe. Millions worship at the Hazratbal shrine, where a few days a year a hair of the Prophet Muhammad is displayed to believers. 

Now Kashmir, caught between the influence of militant Islam from Pakistan and Afghanistan, Americas interests in the region and Indian nationalism (which is becoming increasingly aggressive and Hinduized), is considered a nuclear flash point. It is patrolled by more than half a million soldiers and has become the most highly militarized zone in the world. 

The atmosphere on the highway between Kashmirs capital, Srinagar, and my destination, the little apple town of Shopian in the south, was tense. Groups of soldiers were deployed along the highway, in the orchards, in the fields, on the rooftops and outside shops in the little market squares. Despite months of curfew, the stone pelters calling for azadi (freedom), inspired by the Palestinian intifada, were out again. Some stretches of the highway were covered with so many of these stones that you needed an S.U.V. to drive over them. 

Fortunately the friends I was with knew alternative routes down the back lanes and village roads. The longcut gave me the time to listen to their stories of this years uprising. *The youngest, still a boy, told us that when three of his friends were arrested for throwing stones, the police pulled out their fingernails  every nail, on both hands*. 

For three years in a row now, Kashmiris have been in the streets, protesting what they see as Indias violent occupation. But the militant uprising against the Indian government that began with the support of Pakistan 20 years ago is in retreat. The Indian Army estimates that there are fewer than 500 militants operating in the Kashmir Valley today. The war has left 70,000 dead and tens of thousands debilitated by torture. Many, many thousands have disappeared. More than 200,000 Kashmiri Hindus have fled the valley. Though the number of militants has come down, the number of Indian soldiers deployed remains undiminished. 


But Indias military domination ought not to be confused with a political victory. Ordinary people armed with nothing but their fury have risen up against the Indian security forces. A whole generation of young people who have grown up in a grid of checkpoints, bunkers, army camps and interrogation centers, whose childhood was spent witnessing catch and kill operations, whose imaginations are imbued with spies, informers, unidentified gunmen, intelligence operatives and rigged elections, has lost its patience as well as its fear. With an almost mad courage, Kashmirs young have faced down armed soldiers and taken back their streets. 

Since April, when the army killed three civilians and then passed them off as terrorists, masked stone throwers, most of them students, have brought life in Kashmir to a grinding halt. The Indian government has retaliated with bullets, curfew and censorship. Just in the last few months, 111 people have been killed, most of them teenagers; more than 3,000 have been wounded and 1,000 arrested. 

But still they come out, the young, and throw stones. They dont seem to have leaders or belong to a political party. They represent themselves. And suddenly the second-largest standing army in the world doesnt quite know what to do. The Indian government doesnt know whom to negotiate with. And many Indians are slowly realizing they have been lied to for decades. The once solid consensus on Kashmir suddenly seems a little fragile. 

I WAS in a bit of trouble the morning we drove to Shopian. A few days earlier, at a public meeting in Delhi, I said that Kashmir was disputed territory and, contrary to the Indian governments claims, it couldnt be called an integral part of India. Outraged politicians and news anchors demanded that I be arrested for sedition. The government, terrified of being seen as soft, issued threatening statements, and the situation escalated. Day after day, on prime-time news, I was being called a traitor, a white-collar terrorist and several other names reserved for insubordinate women. But sitting in that car on the road to Shopian, listening to my friends, I could not bring myself to regret what I had said in Delhi. 

We were on our way to visit a man called Shakeel Ahmed Ahangar. The previous day he had come all the way to Srinagar, where I had been staying, to press me, with an urgency that was hard to ignore, to visit Shopian. 

I first met Shakeel in June 2009, only a few weeks after the bodies of Nilofar, his 22-year-old wife, and Asiya, his 17-year-old sister, were found lying a thousand yards apart in a shallow stream in a high-security zone  a floodlit area between army and state police camps. The first postmortem report confirmed **** and murder. But then the system kicked in. New autopsy reports overturned the initial findings and, after the ugly business of exhuming the bodies, **** was ruled out. It was declared that in both cases the cause of death was drowning. Protests shut Shopian down for 47 days, and the valley was convulsed with anger for months. Eventually it looked as though the Indian government had managed to defuse the crisis. But the anger over the killings has magnified the intensity of this years uprising. 

Shakeel wanted us to visit him in Shopian because he was being threatened by the police for speaking out, and hoped our visit would demonstrate that people even outside of Kashmir were looking out for him, that he was not alone. 

It was apple season in Kashmir and as we approached Shopian we could see families in their orchards, busily packing apples into wooden crates in the slanting afternoon light. I worried that a couple of the little red-cheeked children who looked so much like apples themselves might be crated by mistake. The news of our visit had preceded us, and a small knot of people were waiting on the road. 

Shakeels house is on the edge of the graveyard where his wife and sister are buried. It was dark by the time we arrived, and there was a power failure. We sat in a semicircle around a lantern and listened to him tell the story we all knew so well. Other people entered the room. Other terrible stories poured out, ones that are not in human rights reports, stories about what happens to women who live in remote villages where there are more soldiers than civilians. 


Shakeels young son tumbled around in the darkness, moving from lap to lap. Soon hell be old enough to understand what happened to his mother, Shakeel said more than once. 


Just when we rose to leave, a messenger arrived to say that Shakeels father-in-law  Nilofars father  was expecting us at his home. We sent our regrets; it was late and if we stayed longer it would be unsafe for us to drive back. 


Minutes after we said goodbye and crammed ourselves into the car, a friends phone rang. It was a journalist colleague of his with news for me: The police are typing up the warrant. Shes going to be arrested tonight. We drove in silence for a while, past truck after truck being loaded with apples. Its unlikely, my friend said finally. Its just psy-ops. 


But then, as we picked up speed on the highway, we were overtaken by a car full of men waving us down. Two men on a motorcycle asked our driver to pull over. I steeled myself for what was coming. A man appeared at the car window. He had slanting emerald eyes and a salt-and-pepper beard that went halfway down his chest. He introduced himself as Abdul Hai, father of the murdered Nilofar. 
How could I let you go without your apples? he said. The bikers started loading two crates of apples into the back of our car. Then Abdul Hai reached into the pockets of his worn brown cloak, and brought out an egg. He placed it in my palm and folded my fingers over it. And then he placed another in my other hand. The eggs were still warm. God bless and keep you, he said, and walked away into the dark. What greater reward could a writer want? 


I wasnt arrested that night. Instead, in what is becoming a common political strategy, officials outsourced their displeasure to the mob. A few days after I returned home, the womens wing of the Bharatiya Janata Party (the right-wing Hindu nationalist opposition) staged a demonstration outside my house, calling for my arrest. Television vans arrived in advance to broadcast the event live. The murderous Bajrang Dal, a militant Hindu group that, in 2002, spearheaded attacks against Muslims in Gujarat in which more than a thousand people were killed, have announced that they are going to fix me with all the means at their disposal, including by filing criminal charges against me in different courts across the country. 

Indian nationalists and the government seem to believe that they can fortify their idea of a resurgent India with a combination of bullying and Boeing airplanes. But they dont understand the subversive strength of warm, boiled eggs. 


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/09/opinion/09roy.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2


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## Bhairava

Some body thought that her emotional essays from Sri Nagar will be lapped up by the whole world and BO will be spanking India's behind for solving the Kashmir issue,but now is terribily dis-appointed tht her name was not even mentioned in the whole 3 days.

So here comes another mix-match of anti-India,anti-Hindu essay to the new york times with some mirch-masala terms like "azadi","self-determination" added here and there to get the attention.

*Another question is whom is she addressing by writing in the NYT* ?? _I thought it is the Indians ,rather than the hippies in New York who should be convinced_ about the supposed brutality of GoI in Kashmir.The fact that she is not writing in any Indian paper shows that even she knows she doesnt have much credibility among Indians.

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## Ammyy

Gounder said:


> Some body thought that her emotional essays from Sri Nagar will be lapped up by the whole world and BO will be spanking India's behind for solving the Kashmir issue,but* now is terribily dis-appointed tht her name was not even mentioned in the whole 3 days*.
> 
> So here comes another mix-match of anti-India,anti-Hindu essay to the new york times with some mirch-masala terms like "azadi","self-determination" added here and there to get the attention.
> 
> *Another question is whom is she addressing by writing in the NYT* ?? _I thought it is the Indians ,rather than the hippies in New York who should be convinced_ about the supposed brutality of GoI in Kashmir.The fact that she is not writing in any Indian paper shows that even she knows she doesnt have much credibility among Indians.



ohh bechari


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## Bhairava

GUNNER said:


> I wasnt arrested that night. Instead, in what is becoming a common political strategy, officials outsourced their displeasure to the mob. A few days after I returned home, *the womens wing of the Bharatiya Janata Party (the right-wing Hindu nationalist opposition) staged a demonstration outside my house, calling for my arrest*. Television vans arrived in advance to broadcast the event live. The murderous Bajrang Dal, a militant Hindu group that, in 2002, spearheaded attacks against Muslims in Gujarat in which more than a thousand people were killed, have announced that they are going to *fix me with all the means at their disposal, including by filing criminal charges against me in different courts across the country. *



What does this hag think..? that the Freedom of speech is limited only to her...? She has completely lost herself.

On one hand she says pity the nation that controls freedom of speech,but when the same freedom of speech is used against her she cries and complains to New York times. Hypocritical ****.


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## karan.1970

Some of the comments from Obama and Singh's joint statement yesterday are the worse slap possible for delusionists who wanted USA to speak out against the mythical human rights violations by India in J&K (Ms Roy included). I will list those comments below

_"We are the world's two largest democracies. We have both a set of values and principles that we share that I believe are universal: the belief in individual liberty, in freedom of the press, in freedom of political assembly, in human rights"_

_"And given that we have these values that we share, at a time when there are still too many conflicts, there are still too many misunderstandings between nations, when principles like democracy and human rights too often are not observed, for our two countries to be able to stand together to promote those principles -- in international forums, by the example that we set, by the bilateral ties that we form -- I think can be incredibly powerful and incredibly important.
"_


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Obamas statement supports Pakistans Kashmir stance: Babar​*

LAHORE, Nov 8 (APP): Federal Minister for Law, Justice and Parliamentary Affairs Dr Babar Awan has said that US President Barack Obamas statement on Kashmir expressed international acceptance of Pakistans stand on the issue.Talking to the media on his arrival at the Allama Iqbal International Airport here on Monday, he said that now the Kashmir issue should be resolved according to the UN resolutions for peace in the subcontinent.Talking about an upcoming meeting of the Friends of Pakistan on flood affected areas, he said the support of the international community was a success of the nation.

Commenting on the political situation in the country, he said that Charter of Pakistan envisaged by PML-N Quaid Mian Nawaz Sharif was incomprehensible in the presence of the 1973 constitution which was formed by a consensus of all parties at that time.
He said the PML-N should focus on governance in Punjab where prices of chicken had reached up to Rs 300 per kg, adding that some elements had established a poultry foundry in the province.
On the price of sugar, he said crushing could not start in Punjab purposefully even though the federal government had released stocks on time.
He questioned governance in Punjab and asked why the provincial government was not following the directions of the Supreme Court on the sugar price which should be Rs 45 per kg.
He said the chief minister should focus on governance in the province by implementing court observations on sugar and eliminating anti-people elements.
To a question, the minister said chicken would be sold at Rs 1000 per kg and an egg for Rs 100 if governance was not improved.
To a question on the Judicial Council and the 19th amendment, he said that not a single word could be changed in the constitution without an amendment and the government would assist the ruling of the Supreme Court through parliament. 

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan&#039;s Premier NEWS Agency ) - Obamas statement supports Pakistans Kashmir stance: Babar


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Kashmir separatists say Obama backs their position​*
Posted: Tue Nov 09 2010, 04:38 hrs 
Srinagar: 

Separatists on Monday tried to put their own spin on President Barack Obamas comments on Jammu and Kashmir, saying the US had backed their position by terming Kashmir a long-standing dispute. 

Hawk Syed Ali Shah Geelani was prompt to praise Obamas statement, projecting it as an achievement for his five-month-long protest campaign in the state. 

We are happy that President Obama admitted that Kashmir is a long-standing dispute and needs to be solved. This is what we have also been saying for long. We want the US to play a role in the resolution of Kashmir, Geelani said in a video statement posted on Youtube. 

Moderate Hurriyat chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq said the Hurriyat wanted the US to play a covert facilitatory role if mediation was not acceptable to India. We are also happy that Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has talked about engaging Pakistan and said that India was not afraid of K-word, he said. 

Kashmir separatists say Obama backs their position


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## Peacefulll

"Obamas statement supports Pakistans Kashmir stance: Babar"

How?


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## StingRoy

All I could make out of this post is price of Chicken and Eggs 

How did he conclude the international acceptance of Kashmir?

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## I want GIRLS!

Why not!?
Babar the great has said it and we should believe it!
no one else in the world has that opinion though.


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## S_O_C_O_M




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## Rafael

Babar Awan is the biggest lier I have ever seen!

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## Peshwa

"Bade Bade Deshon mein, choti choti baatein hoti rehti hain".....

Geelani and his apparent "interpretion" of tacit US support for the Kashmir struggle is no different....

Geelani Sahib...ab Dilli duur nahin....LOL!


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Delhi police harass Kashmiri students for attending seminar​*
Posted Mon, 11/08/2010 - 14:13 
Share Indian troops martyr two more 'Protest in Bandipora 
Srinagar, November 08 (KGN):Indian police has started harassing the Kashmiri students who attended a seminar on Kashmir held in New Delhi, last month.

A student at Jamia Millia Islamia talking to media men via telephone from New Delhi on the condition of anonymity said, An unknown caller asked me to come to Jamia police station as they wanted to question me in connection with the seminar. They have done it earlier too. He said that some Indian intelligence officials had also visited his home in Srinagar for seeking details about him.

Another Delhi University student who was at the seminar, said that the task of harassment had been assigned to the hooligans of Hindu extremist student unions who harassed the students in myriad ways. In occupied Kashmir, Indian troops, in their fresh act of state terrorism, martyred two innocent Kashmiri youth in Kupwara district, today.

On the other hand,The troops killed the youth in Tangdhar area of the district during a siege and search operation, which continued till last reports came in.
Bandipora: people took to streets in Bandipora and staged protests to press for the release of six youth arrested by Indian police during a nocturnal raid. The police had detained six youth including three brothers from various localities of Bandipora during the intervening night of Saturday and Sunday.

People in Hajin held protests against the arrest of three youth, a week ago. Residents of Sonawari told media men that the CRPF troops barged into residential houses during night time and harassed the youth, who were preparing for their exams.

Delhi police harass Kashmiri students for attending seminar|Kashmir Global -Kashmir News Research Monitoring Analyzing different Stories,Videos,Articles, Pictures on Kashmir Conflict


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## karan.1970

what is that kahawat about "saawan ka andhe ko hara- hara (pun intended) hi dikhta hai " .. lol


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## MYSTIC

What are your comments regarding this incident. Why open a thread if you have no comments?


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## I want GIRLS!

How?????????????????????????

Obama didn't say anything about Kashmir!!
Why would he like to hurt India,when he is in India to ask for help?


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## airuah

"a mirage is the desert" for Geelani eye's. and he trying to make everyone see the same mirage that he dreams about


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## LadyGaga

*dil ko behlane ke liye ghalib ye khayal bhi achha hai*


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## GUNNER

I want GIRLS! said:


> How?????????????????????????
> 
> Obama didn't say anything about Kashmir!!



Well, he did mention Kashmir at the joint presser with Mr Mnamohan Singh. 

I personally feel Obama, in a way, said something for everyone. 

The fact that he did talk about Kashmir, terming it a long outstanding dispute, saying Pakistan and India should resolve it can be taken by the Kashmiri leaders as a backing for their stance.

For India's sake, he ruled out imposing any solution and said the issue was to be decided bilaterally.

Pakistan can see light in his words that US is willing to play any role to reduce tensions between the two countries in a way that both countries may agree to. 

Smart, i would say.


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## Peshwa

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *Obama&#8217;s statement supports Pakistan&#8217;s Kashmir stance: Babar​*
> 
> LAHORE, Nov 8 (APP): Federal Minister for Law, Justice and Parliamentary Affairs Dr Babar Awan has said that US President Barack Obama&#8217;s statement on Kashmir expressed international acceptance of Pakistan&#8217;s stand on the issue.Talking to the media on his arrival at the Allama Iqbal International Airport here on Monday, he said that now the Kashmir issue should be resolved according to the UN resolutions for peace in the subcontinent.Talking about an upcoming meeting of the Friends of Pakistan on flood affected areas, he said the support of the international community was a success of the nation.
> 
> Commenting on the political situation in the country, he said that &#8220;Charter of Pakistan&#8221; envisaged by PML-N Quaid Mian Nawaz Sharif was incomprehensible in the presence of the 1973 constitution which was formed by a consensus of all parties at that time.
> He said the PML-N should focus on governance in Punjab where prices of chicken had reached up to Rs 300 per kg, adding that some elements had established a &#8220;poultry foundry&#8221; in the province.
> On the price of sugar, he said crushing could not start in Punjab purposefully even though the federal government had released stocks on time.
> He questioned governance in Punjab and asked why the provincial government was not following the directions of the Supreme Court on the sugar price which should be Rs 45 per kg.
> He said the chief minister should focus on governance in the province by implementing court observations on sugar and eliminating anti-people elements.
> To a question, the minister said chicken would be sold at Rs 1000 per kg and an egg for Rs 100 if governance was not improved.
> To a question on the Judicial Council and the 19th amendment, he said that not a single word could be changed in the constitution without an amendment and the government would assist the ruling of the Supreme Court through parliament.
> 
> Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - Obama&#8217;s statement supports Pakistan&#8217;s Kashmir stance: Babar



Which Statement is he referring to "Obamas supports India's UNSC aspirations" or "terrorist safe havens in Pakistan are not acceptable"..?

Both are so applicable to Kashmir...


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## GUNNER

Peshwa said:


> Which Statement is he referring to "Obamas supports India's UNSC aspirations" or "terrorist safe havens in Pakistan are not acceptable"..?
> 
> 
> 
> He is referring to the statement that Kashmir is a long outstanding dispute between India and Pakistan which needs to be resolved for regional peace and that the US is willing to play a role to reduce tensions between the two countries.
Click to expand...


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## StingRoy

> *Hawk *Syed Ali Shah Geelani was prompt to praise Obama&#8217;s statement.


Good metaphor! 

Everyone is trying to take a piece of the meat out of Obama's mention of Kashmir. 

I liked the point where MMS mentioned that a strong, peaceful and moderate Pakistan is in the interest of India, S. Asia and the world. We are committed to engage with Pakistan and resolving all the outstanding issues.


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## Avatar

*Move this thread to "Stupid and Funny" please. *


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## true_indian

> He is referring to the statement that Kashmir is a long outstanding dispute between India and Pakistan which needs to be resolved for regional peace and that the *US is willing to play a role to reduce tensions between the two countries*.



Well that's pretty obvious. We say Kashmir is integral part of India and you oppose it. There in lies the dispute between India and Pakistan. Something we should resolve bilaterally. We all know it. Obama basically said the same thing again. Moreover by saying that he kind of towed India's point of view. Obviously Pakistan who is asking US to mediate but he stayed clear of any such overtures. How is that Pakistan winning I fail to understand!

Bold part is not true. He said US will mediate only if both countries are willing. There is no way in hell India would allow such thing.


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## GUNNER

true_indian said:


> Bold part is not true. He said US will mediate only if both countries are willing. There is no way in hell India would allow such thing.



For a third party to play a role in a bilateral dispute, the two parties must agree on the kind of role the third party must play. Obama has offered to play a role not in settling the dispute but in helping to reduce the tensions. Obviously, US cannot do anything if both India and Pakistan aren't willing or ready to do on their own. Look at the palestine dispute. Despite playing a direct mediatory role, US hasn't been able to resolve the issue.


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## sensenreason

raheel1 said:


> Babar Awan is the biggest lier I have ever seen!



Its sad that the subcontinents people are lied to by their leaders...as they are what is called the 'contrador elites'..


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## The HBS Guy

Well I don't think anyone can deny that there have been human right issues and I believe I'll not be mistaken if I speak on behalf of every Indian that our heart cries for them. 

But...and this is a big BUT...human rights violations are a part and parcel of any action anywhere in the world which involves massive use of military.

And as a matter of fact, India was 'forced' to use so much military on its own people after 1989 (not before that).

Wherever there will be army, in whichever conflict of the world, there will be human rights issues, be it East Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine etc.

This is sad but true.


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## MYSTIC

S_O_C_O_M said:


>



shouldn't the nose ring be on the other side. Surely a rebel


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## Ammyy

*Nearly 59,000 families migrated from Kashmir due to militancy*

Agencies Tags : Number of Kashmiri migrants, Valley Posted: Tue Nov 09 2010, 15:35 hrs New Delhi: 

Nearly 59,000 families are reported to have migrated from Kashmir following the outbreak of militancy in the 1990s and none of them has returned to the Valley till now, Government said.

"Due to the onset of militancy in the 1990's, 58,697 families are reported to have migrated from the Valley and are temporarily settled in Jammu, Delhi and other parts of the country," Minister of State for Home Ajay Maken said in a written reply to Lok Sabha.

Giving details of the various measures taken for rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants, he said 200 flats have been constructed at Sheikpora in Budgam district.

Two model clusters in Matttan and Kheer Bhavani containing temporary shelters for Kashmiri migrants have 18 flats and 100 one-room tenements respectively, Maken said.

Maken said no family has returned to the Valley and it is not possible to indicate any time line for the same. 

Nearly 59,000 families migrated from Kashmir due to militancy

Who is responsible for that 
*
Where is mr. Gillani who called him self representative of Kashmiri people why he is quiet on this issue ?????? *

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## Toshiba

offcourse freedom fighters


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## esthum1

sipraomer said:


> Who will do it? If it were ever to be done, why was it not done in the past? Does anyone like to do partition to his country just like that? The Hindus couldn't give separate representation to the Muslims in the parliament. How can they give a separate state to the Muslims? If Nehru would have listened Jinnah, all this chaos wouldn't happen from the start altogether. India would have been the biggest country, with largest population, richest resources and would have been a Super power exceeding the Americans and Chineese in all matters.
> 
> The problem can only be solved when a third party, (revolutionary party) comes in power and kills all politicians of India, Pakistan and BanglaDesh.


.

kashmir sould be independent ebcuase BOTH pakistan and india have lsot their moral claim to kashmir. also because kashmiris want an indpeendent sate and kashmir belongs to kashmriirs - they wre not aksed in 48 what they wnated and they shud have been. what was doen to them is moral hypcrysy on india's part. oh its ok for india to fight for self determination but god forbid they actually apply it.

the kashmriirs never consented to be apart of idnia, and for that kashmir belongs to kashmiris - hindu, sikh, or muslim or budhhist; and only the kashmiris have the right to decdi what they want india, pak or indep. and i know theyw ant indep.
they richly deserve it.


oh god i acgree i hate nehru. why ddidnt he jsu shut up and pay attention to jinnah. jinnah was no bastard he was an educated man and morever he was no radical! i mean his wife was achristian and he thoroughly believed in democarcy.
bloody nehru.,


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## Surrender2me

May be one day,becoz of this gelaani,there will not be any people in Kashmir...
They will flee to south india and other places in india..
Then with whom will this guy protest.. 
People want to live in peace not 24*7 violence....


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## esthum1

humblehobbes said:


> Is the concern for Kashmir or Kashmiri people or Kashmiri Muslims? If its for Kashmiri Muslims, you can open the flood gates, like how the US did with Cuba in the eighties!? what say yo!? Let the Harassing Indian Army be here in Kashmir. Take the Kashmiri Muslims!
> 
> I am not against other Indian muslims here. But I fail to understand where the sympathies of the Pakistanis are! Is it with the Kashmiris? If so, why isnt there an iota of respect for Kashmiri Pundits or for the land ceded to China? Or is it for the Muslim Brethren? If so why isnt there even a hint of mewing for the Chinese Uighurs!
> 
> If the issue is for the disputed Land of Kashmir, stop the rhetoric of being the Saviours of Kashmiri Muslims. If the issue is supposedly for the Muslim brothers only in disputed areas, where the vested interest is with the land, make the point clear that this a policy of fomenting trouble by stirring religious sentiments in a disputed area so as to make the other party of the dispute uncomfortable.


.

the sympathy is for anyone who has suffered huma rights violations - the kashmiri muslims murdered and raped by the IA; the kashmiri pandits murdered and chucked out by the kashmiri militants and the innocents who died in the mumbai bombings.
the dipsued terrotiry? i see no dispute, india is morally hyporyte. why should a tyrant maharaja be allowed to sign over his epople, wihtout their consent; to india without ASKING? oh and then fleeing? is this fair? if i remmebr correctly our mahrajs in india singed us over to GB but that was not fair and we fought and it was good that we fought!
is kahsmiris position acceptable? kashmir was an indep state, the fate of kashmir shud have been with the kashmiri people; as now. thats PANDITS, MSULIMS and SIKHS. it is up to them and them alone.
and india and apkistan ahve lost any calims to kashmir based n mral sovereignity.
india lost moral sovereignty by denying kashmiris the right to self detemine - HYPOCRYSY; and then by putting them in milit. occupation.
pakistan lost moral claim to kashmir in 65 with their idiotic infiltrating terrorists.
kashmir shud be independent. 
yasin mailk makes it clear he wants the kashmiri pandits bakc in kashmir.
now follow his example
kashmir for hindus, muslims and sikhs - kashmiris.
BAS


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## Ammyy

Surrender2me said:


> May be one day,becoz of this gelaani,there will not be any people in Kashmir...
> They will flee to south india and other places in india..
> Then with whom will this guy protest..
> People want to live in peace not 24*7 violence....



Dnt warry buddy people start to show him his real place

Recent three day protest was biggest failure
And i think now people dnt afraid of Gilani

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## Avatar

Toshiba said:


> offcourse freedom fighters



They are trying to give freedom to Kashmiris by making them realize and utilize their rights to move and settle in any part of the republic of India. I dont agree with the means though, and lately they are being crushed like cockroaches.


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## karan.1970

How old is this guy Gelani? And what is his life expectancy 

Though he is no where as revered as the Dalai Lama, its pretty easy to wait him out like China is doing to Lama.


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## flameboard

This was reported by Indian media of course there is bias in this. Indian police has been known to abuse civilians even during time when there areno militants in the area. They have r@ped women publicly, and tortured innocent children and recently killed a new born. Militants aren't targeting people, it the Indian police, Indians love to call anyone that doesn't hold their view a militant. It so bad that even foreign journalists have become a victim of the police. Do some research guys. 


Be a human and stand up for human rights, so that they too may stand up for yours are taken away from you.


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## Surrender2me

flameboard said:


> This was reported by Indian media of course there is bias in this. Indian police has been known to abuse civilians even during time when there areno militants in the area. They have r@ped women publicly, and tortured innocent children and recently killed a new born. Militants aren't targeting people, it the Indian police, Indians love to call anyone that doesn't hold their view a militant. *It so bad that even foreign journalists have become a victim of the police*. Do some research guys.
> 
> 
> Be a human and stand up for human rights, so that they too may stand up for yours are taken away from you.


Yeah we have bribed all journalists of each and every country..
the last time i saw,weren't u canadian???


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## Ammyy

flameboard said:


> This was reported by Indian media of course there is bias in this. Indian police has been known to abuse civilians even during time when there areno militants in the area. They have r@ped women publicly, and tortured innocent children and recently killed a new born. *Militants aren't targeting people,* it the Indian police, Indians love to call anyone that doesn't hold their view a militant. It so bad that even foreign journalists have become a victim of the police. Do some research guys.
> 
> 
> Be a human and stand up for human rights, so that they too may stand up for yours are taken away from you.



I think you are not mature enough you talk matter like this bold part show that clearly


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## true_indian

GUNNER said:


> For a third party to play a role in a bilateral dispute, the two parties must agree on the kind of role the third party must play. Obama has offered to play a role not in settling the dispute but in helping to reduce the tensions. Obviously, US cannot do anything if both India and Pakistan aren't willing or ready to do on their own. Look at the palestine dispute. Despite playing a direct mediatory role, US hasn't been able to resolve the issue.



But how is it a win for Pakistan? US is not going to mediate unless India accepts it. India sure hell will not accept it.


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## lionheart1

Obama&#8217;s statement supports Pakistan&#8217;s Kashmir stance now pakistan is happy . obama also supported us on many other issue this is also pakistani stance .


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## Trichy

i can simply say that what the First Post and above 10k+ post member dont know the reason for this problem. It starts by some one, but make critically by Indian PM in1947. else this not a problem now... By one mistake committed by a PM caused lakhs of life of humans... Like what the A Hitler done during the WWII...

Brits are too cunning to left their colonies with out proper solutions MFrs


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## jatpigor

stop fighting for politis. an independet kashmir si the only fair solution becuase both india and pakistan have lsot thier moral claim to kashmir; theyve been abused form both ends and becuase the kashmiris were never asked what they wanted in 48 kashmir belongs to the akshmriis, and thus the fate of the kashmir belONGS TO SOLELY KASHMIRIS. howver i have a feeeling that ladakhis, kahsmir valley ashmriis and jammu kashmiris all want differnt things. im sure they can reach an agreemnt though they can be like turkey - a secual but maj muslim population.


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## jatpigor

Jackdaws said:


> One thing I wish to know is -
> 
> If Pakistan want Kashmir's independence - then why did they invade an independent Kashmir in the first place?
> 
> What do Pakistani history books teach? Do they teach that India invaded Kashmir first? Or do they teach that the ruler of Kashmir appealed to the Indian state after Pakistan had invaded and was fairly close to Srinagar?



excuse me mr lack of history. paksitna didnt want kahsmirs indep in 48 - it wants it NOW. duh. in 48 theyw anted kahsmir in pak; now they want indep kashmir. see? also didnt india invade junagadh. oh right. oh and more importantly indain troops were already there before maharaja hari singh signed the instrument.


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## Kunwar

jatpigor said:


> excuse me mr lack of history. paksitna didnt want kahsmirs indep in 48 - it wants it NOW. duh. in 48 theyw anted kahsmir in pak; now they want indep kashmir. see? also didnt india invade junagadh. oh right. oh and more importantly indain troops were already there before maharaja hari singh signed the instrument.



Abu Dhabi & Armenia eh? 

Tell pakistan to free "Azad" Kashmir then come talk about J&K 

Besides this thread is from February..


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## jatpigor

Jackdaws said:


> Scotland has all of this too - it is still a part of the United Kingdom and not an independent nation. And the world - whether you like it or not has always been neutral.
> 
> As far as Junagadh is concerned - India never legally disputed Junagadh's accession to Pakistan - it sent its forces AFTER Nawaz Bhutto invited the Indian govt. to conduct a plebiscite.


are you crazy? india blockaded and miltiary ocucpeid junagadh. nawaz bhutto got desperate and then signed the isntrument. the blockade and occupation was BEFORE the instriment was signed. DUH


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## Jackdaws

jatpigor said:


> are you crazy? india blockaded and miltiary ocucpeid junagadh. nawaz bhutto got desperate and then signed the isntrument. the blockade and occupation was BEFORE the instriment was signed. DUH



Rubbish. India sent its forces inside Junagadh on November 9. In late October Bhutto sent 2 requests to Pakistani govt. for help - one to Jinnah and one to Ministry of Foreign Affairs but Pakistan govt. did not respond. On November 7, Bhutto invited India into Junagadh since Pakistan had not bothered to reply. And India entered only on November 9.


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## Jackdaws

jatpigor said:


> excuse me mr lack of history. paksitna didnt want kahsmirs indep in 48 - it wants it NOW. duh. in 48 theyw anted kahsmir in pak; now they want indep kashmir. see? also didnt india invade junagadh. oh right. oh and more importantly indain troops were already there before maharaja hari singh signed the instrument.



They entered Kashmir in Pakistan??? LOL - Kashmir was not in Pakistan. And you have the cheek to call me Mr. Lack of History. What should I call you - Mr. Lack of History, Geography & Logic?


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## dabong1

Jackdaws said:


> One thing I wish to know is -
> 
> If Pakistan want Kashmir's independence - then why did they invade an independent Kashmir in the first place?



As normal assumptions......pakistan wants kashmir to be part of pakistan.
The UN resolutions make no provision for independence in kashmir,its a staight choice between pakistan and india.




Jackdaws said:


> What do Pakistani history books teach? Do they teach that India invaded Kashmir first? Or do they teach that the ruler of Kashmir appealed to the Indian state after Pakistan had invaded and was fairly close to Srinagar?



What do you indian get taught in your history books?


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## dabong1

Jackdaws said:


> Rubbish. India sent its forces inside Junagadh on November 9. In late October Bhutto sent 2 requests to Pakistani govt. for help - one to Jinnah and one to Ministry of Foreign Affairs but Pakistan govt. did not respond. On November 7, Bhutto invited India into Junagadh since Pakistan had not bothered to reply. And India entered only on November 9.



What matters is that when the leaders of Junagarh, Bihar and Hyderabad wanted to join pakistan you invaded and said that the will of the people is what matters.......why the hypocrisy when it comes to kashmir.


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## sensenreason

jatpigor said:


> stop fighting for politis.* an independet kashmir si the only fair solution becuase both india and pakistan have lsot thier moral claim to kashmir*; theyve been abused form both ends and becuase the kashmiris were never asked what they wanted in 48 kashmir belongs to the akshmriis, and thus the fate of the kashmir belONGS TO SOLELY KASHMIRIS. howver i have a feeeling that ladakhis, kahsmir valley ashmriis and jammu kashmiris *all want differnt things. *im sure they can reach an agreemnt though they can be like turkey - a secual but maj muslim population.



Not sure how do you measure moral right or wrong.Even if it is a matter of self determination,allowing for all shades of opinion is a good way forward to avoid future disputes.

Infact, diversity of opinion is a good reason to maintaining status quo with some sort of an arrangement.

Keeping the geopolitics, economics and ethnicities in mind...I honestly think that we need a 'south asian grand bargain'. In this bargain, we must include Kashmiris of all hues,Bangladesh, China, Tibetans and Sri Lanka apart from India and Pakistan.

It might not be a bad idea to having Afghanistan and Nepal involved in some way...

The idea should be to create guiding principles and dispute management systems.It should actually start by trying to build a common market.

The problem with this region, even including China is diversity. There are too many diverse languages and ethnic groups. Currently, while India has the most diversity and probably Bangladesh the least.

The fact is countries were created post second world war and the new nation solutions were not stable.Pakistan has been searching for its identity and even lost one half of its nation state.I must observe the other half isnt missed much.

Its obviously not possible to draw new boundaries all over the region. But if you redraw one boundary, another one will flare up.

So whats needed is a loose confederation thats much more than SAARC but less than EU.This can be a game changer in many respects. Ofcourse, on first glance it would look impossible to achieve but the fact is China is a observer in SAARC.

The key point to understand is that there are many disputes that emrged between 1940-50 that havent been resolved, but the world has changed and become more strcutured....in the current scenario..new nations do not get created easily.The pace of events is faster than the time taken to formulate strategies.


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## Bharat Muslim

The Clarifier said:


> I highly doubt Indian army is able to beat US...
> 
> And the way we Muslims are right now, I don't think we will 'retaliate'.
> 
> But that above comment was pure trolling.



9/11 happened before Iraq war, Afghan war and Florida pastor controversy. Imagine what would be the situation now!


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## nForce

Bharat Muslim said:


> 9/11 happened before Iraq war, Afghan war and Florida pastor controversy. Imagine what would be the situation now!



any relation,between them??let alone the thread??


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## Swift

I suggest IQ test for PDF. What say?


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## Creder

SRINAGAR: Suspected militants fatally shot two Indian paramilitary soldiers guarding a busy marketplace in Indian-administered Kashmir on Wednesday, an official said.

Anti-India sentiment runs deep in the disputed Muslim-majority region, where guerrilla groups have fought for Kashmirs independence from India or its merger with neighbouring Pakistan since 1989. More than 68,000 people have been killed in the conflict.

Wednesdays attack occurred in Pattan town about 20 miles north of Srinagar  the main city in the region  triggering panic among shoppers and merchants, said Prabhakar Tripathi, a spokesman for the Central Reserve Police Force.

The attackers fled after grabbing the dead soldiers rifles, a police officer said on condition of anonymity as he was not authorised to speak to the media.

No group claimed responsibility for the attack.

While insurgent strikes have largely been suppressed by Indian forces, Kashmiri resistance is now principally through street demonstrations.

Since June, the region has been rocked by violent anti-India protests and subsequent crackdowns by government security forces that have killed at least 111 people  mostly teenage boys and young men in their 20s.

India and Pakistan have fought two wars for control over the region since they won independence from Britain in 1947.

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## hembo

^^^^

Links plz!


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## SpArK

hembo said:


> ^^^^
> 
> Links plz!



Its all over in the news...

Search is going on to nab them.


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## The HBS Guy

May god give strength to the martyr's families and peace to their souls. 

Rest in Peace Brothers. The nation is forever indebted to you.


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## gubbi

RIP to the soldiers.

Find the scumbags and punish them. I hope its not long before those parasites are found.


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## Urbanized Greyhound

They will be found one way or the other , and when found ------

To the fallen heroes who gave their today for a better tomorrow for all Indians , 
" You have the salutations of 1.3 billion Indians " .Hope the GOI is prompt to look into the welfare of their next-of kin ....


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## SpArK

They used guns with silencers in market area of the town.. The whole area has been cordoned off and a massive hunt has been launched to nab the militants involved in the attack.

Lets hope they are captured and sent to where they belong to.


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## gubbi

BENNY said:


> *They used guns with silencers* in market area of the town.. The whole area has been cordoned off and a massive hunt has been launched to nab the militants involved in the attack.
> 
> Lets hope they are captured and sent to where they belong to.



That is something new! Its not a 'normal' MO of militants, they want a bang. 
Those who did this may be petty murderers who thought of stealing guns and selling them - may be to militants.

Do you have a source for that silenced guns?


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## karan.1970

RIP the brave soldiers. Let the hunt begin..


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## SpArK

gubbi said:


> That is something new! Its not a 'normal' MO of militants, they want a bang.
> Those who did this may be petty murderers who thought of stealing guns and selling them - may be to militants.
> 
> Do you have a source for that silenced guns?



Two CRPF personnel shot dead by militants

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## marcos98

sad.
RIP to fallen soldiers.



hope the terrorists die a painful death.


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## Surrender2me

To the thread starter:-CRPF are not Soldiers they r police..
CRPF=Central Reserve Police Force


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## Kompromat

Good work !

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## majesticpankaj

Black Blood said:


> Good work !


http://rob.nu/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/FacePalm.jpg


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## FreekiN

Great, wipe the occupational army out of kashmir!

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## The HBS Guy

FreekiN said:


> Great, wipe the *terrorist army* out of kashmir!



You just violated the PDF's Libel policy on Kashmir (TSherring22 was banned for this same offence) and I'm reporting your post and expecting similar action. 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/forum-information/78490-policy-libel-kashmir-related.html#post1235509


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## Rafi

Freedom is attained from violence, that is the way of the world, these two indian soldiers had to die for the Kasmiri people to achieve the right of self determination. The only one responsible, for their deaths, is the indian state that holds a people under occupation. 

Sad, but just the way of the world.....


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## Rafi

I don't think Freekin has done anything wrong, that is the sentiment of the vast majority of Pakistani's and also Kashmiri's, this is still defencepk is it not???

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## The HBS Guy

Rafi said:


> I don't think Freekin has done anything wrong, that is the sentiment of the vast majority of Pakistani's and also Kashmiri's, this is still defencepk is it not???



Talk to the mods. Rules are still the same for everyone I guess.


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## mikey

Rafi said:


> Freedom is attained from violence, that is the way of the world, these two indian soldiers had to die for the Kasmiri people to achieve the right of self determination. The only one responsible, for their deaths, is the indian state that holds a people under occupation.
> 
> Sad, but just the way of the world.....



you keep chanting this K word and we keep listening...but kaya kare ju tak nahi rengti .

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## mikey

Rafi said:


> I don't think Freekin has done anything wrong, that is the sentiment of the vast majority of Pakistani's and also Kashmiri's, this is still defencepk is it not???



you are not kashmir nor this forum rite ? ?


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## Kompromat

mikey said:


> shows your mental health only,if you cant respect soldiers then better you leave this forum and join some rupeenews kinda forum..



Shut up! They gotten what they deserve - in my eyes occupying forces deserve zero respect.

Indian forces in Kahsmir to me are no different than Nazis or Israelis.
I have no joy on these deaths but i dont have any empathy too.

These forces kill our brothers how the hell you can even expect us to "Respect" these morons.

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## mikey

KingKong31 said:


> Talk to the mods. Rules are still the same for everyone I guess.



if mods are not in favour of respect of soldiers of either countries than god help us..

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## The HBS Guy

Black Blood said:


> Shut up! They gotten what they deserve - in my eyes occupying forces deserve zero respect.
> 
> Indian forces in Kahsmir to me are no different than Nazis or Israelis.
> I have no joy on these deaths but i dont have any empathy too.
> 
> These forces kill our brothers how the hell you can even expect us to "Respect" these morons.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/forum-information/78490-policy-libel-kashmir-related.html#post1235509



> To move the debates forward, we're enforcing the use of the term "Kashmiri separatists" and enforcing ALL uniformed armies be given their due respect as soldiers.


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## majesticpankaj

Black Blood said:


> Shut up! They gotten what they deserve - in my eyes occupying forces deserve zero respect.
> 
> Indian forces in Kahsmir to me are no different than Nazis or Israelis.
> I have no joy on these deaths but i dont have any empathy too.
> 
> These forces kill our brothers how the hell you can even expect us to "Respect" these morons.


we can say same thing about pakistan army but we won't because they are the martyr for their country... shameful !!!

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## mikey

Black Blood said:


> Shut up! They gotten what they deserve - in my eyes occupying forces deserve zero respect.
> 
> Indian forces in Kahsmir to me are no different than Nazis or Israelis.
> I have no joy on these deaths but i dont have any empathy too.
> 
> These forces kill our brothers how the hell you can even expect us to "Respect" these morons.



betta keep ya stinky mouth shut m8 , to me pak sold deserves no respect at baluc ? Coz they are human rite ?

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## SpArK

Since its not separatists and are militants with guns .. let us be clear.. 

*They are indeed idiotic morons or scumbags who will die a bad death soon.*



Ref:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/forum-information/78490-policy-libel-kashmir-related.html#post1235509


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## The HBS Guy

Black Blood said:


> Shut up! They gotten what they deserve - in my eyes occupying forces deserve zero respect.
> 
> Indian forces in Kahsmir to me are no different than Nazis or Israelis.
> I have no joy on these deaths but i dont have any empathy too.
> 
> These forces kill our brothers how the hell you can even expect us to "Respect" these morons.



*You are a researcher and yet you do not grasp a simple fact that a soldier does not fight out of his own whims and fancies. He does not occupy a territory just because he wants to.

HE DOES ALL THIS BECAUSE HE HAS BEEN ORDERED TO DO THIS. IT'S NOT A CHOICE HE COULD MAKE AND HENCE HE MUST BE RESPECTED. *


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## Kompromat

mikey said:


> betta keep ya stinky mouth shut m8 , to me pak sold deserves no respect at baluc ? Coz they are human rite ?



Lets not get into a verbal frenzy here - i don't have time to respond to trolls.

This conversation ends here.


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## The HBS Guy

Black Blood said:


> Lets not get into a verbal frenzy here - i don't have time to respond to trolls.
> 
> This conversation ends here.



Yes Mr. President I very well know you do not have time to respond to us lesser mortals but I'd nevertheless expect you to respect forum rules. Those very rules which apply to us and which, mods say, apply to you too.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/forum-information/78490-policy-libel-kashmir-related.html#post1235509


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## Kompromat

majesticpankaj said:


> we can say same thing about pakistan army but we won't because they are the martyr for their country... shameful !!!



Fighting for Motherland is different from occupying and slave holding a nation.

Get your Concepts clear - in my Eyes indian soldiers deserve No respect because of the violation of United Nations rules as well as Human rights.

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## mikey

give respect ,take respect ,we also know where your soft belly is ? ? Soldiers are soldiers .


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## The HBS Guy

Black Blood said:


> Fighting for Motherland is different from occupying and slave holding a nation.
> 
> Get your Concepts clear - in my Eyes indian soldiers deserve No respect because of the violation of United Nations rules as well as Human rights.



What you regard as an occupied territory, we regard as a part of our motherland.

Who's to be believed?

Nevertheless, we caould agree on a most basic aspect to not disrespect dead soldiers but ALAS!, Your excellency does not think so.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/forum-information/78490-policy-libel-kashmir-related.html#post1235509


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## Kompromat

KingKong31 said:


> Yes Mr. President I very well know you do not have time to respond to us lesser mortals but I'd nevertheless expect you to respect forum rules. Those very rules which apply to us and which, mods say, apply to you too.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/forum-information/78490-policy-libel-kashmir-related.html#post1235509



I dont need your lectures on that - i have read the policy and acting according to it.

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## The HBS Guy

Black Blood said:


> I dont need your lectures on that - i have read the policy and acting according to it.



Yes you are and that's why I did not report your post. But since I used to think you are a sincere and grown up guy, I expected you to give due respect to fallen soldiers even if they belonged to the enemy camp.

But, may be, you are not so grown up after all.

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## mikey

Black Blood said:


> Fighting for Motherland is different from occupying and slave holding a nation.
> 
> Get your Concepts clear - in my Eyes indian soldiers deserve No respect because of the violation of United Nations rules as well as Human rights.



who are you man ? ?where you stand ? Infrnt of me every soldier from any country deserves Respect... Dont teach IA BOT HUMAN RIGHTS ,I DONT WANT TO OPEN KALA CHITAA HERE AND WHAT MAKES INTERNATIONAL NEWS .


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## Kompromat

KingKong31 said:


> What you regard as an occupied territory, we regard as a part of our motherland.
> 
> Who's to be believed?
> 
> Nevertheless, we caould agree on a most basic aspect to not disrespect dead soldiers but ALAS!, Your excellency does not think so.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/forum-information/78490-policy-libel-kashmir-related.html#post1235509



Its a Disputed territory recognized by United Nations and this is why the border is called the Line of Control.

Kashmir is not Your motherland it belongs to Kashmiris and you Invaded it in 1948.

You cannot just go around and spread your propaganda on this- Jammu & Kashmir is a disputed region occupied by you and where your these very soldiers have killed Thousands of Kashmiris over their period of oppression.

The Invasion soldiers don't deserve any respect specially when they are carrying out mass atrocities.

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## Toshiba

Black Blood said:


> Fighting for Motherland is different from occupying and slave holding a nation.
> 
> Get your Concepts clear - in my Eyes indian soldiers deserve No respect because of the violation of United Nations rules as well as Human rights.





> Get your Concepts clear - in my Eyes indian soldiers deserve No respect because of the violation of United Nations rules as well as Human rights.



apply this on you,
1)wat happened when you trained the terrorist to blast the afghanistan?
2)where were human rights gone when pakistan supported violence in indian punjab which was not occupied?
3)same in north eastern states...........
4)where human rights goes when ur army kill the baloch leaders.in their eyes ,u have occupied their land n u r exploiting them....

and regarding to respect,i can say same abt ur army when they got killed


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## The HBS Guy

Black Blood said:


> The Invasion soldiers don't deserve any respect specially when they are carrying out mass atrocities.



*Yes they do. Soldiers no matter where they are or which army or country they are, deserve a treatment befitting a soldier fighinng for his country.

You'd do well to see the following video on how dead soldiers should be respected.

YouTube - Kargil War - Pakistani Army surrenders and accepts bodies

BUT MAY BE IT IS A BIG ASK OF YOU AND HENCE I'M NOT CARRYING THIS ARGUMENT ANY FURTHER *

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## Kompromat

KingKong31 said:


> Yes you are and that's why I did not report your post. But since I used to think you are a sincere and grown up guy, I expected you to give due respect to fallen soldiers even if they belonged to the enemy camp.
> 
> But, may be, you are not so grown up after all.



They do and i have had threads on that - check them out !

They deserve respect only when defending their homeland not dead while trying to keep their illegal oppression in place and defying international rules , keeping international media out , not allowing local politicians to go abroad and participate in events - ban SMS and Television and mobile service , Internet.

"Morality and gun are opposite - morality dies when gun starts"

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## mikey

Black Blood said:


> I dont need your lectures on that - i have read the policy and acting according to it.



you know what man,you read so much but applies nufing... You have no sympthy for human being ,even he dead which is a basic rite of him.


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## Kompromat

KingKong31 said:


> *Yes they do. Soldiers no matter where they are or which army or country they are, deserve a treatment befitting a soldier fighinng for his country.
> 
> You'd do well to see the following video on how dead soldiers should be respected.
> 
> YouTube - Kargil War - Pakistani Army surrenders and accepts bodies
> 
> BUT MAY BE IT IS A BIG ASK OF YOU AND HENCE I'M NOT CARRYING THIS ARGUMENT ANY FURTHER *



Its off topic - but we don't have any graves of Indian soldiers fallen in our side.

Thousands of them have been returned with honor - its an International obligation of war. Everyone follows it and it has got nothing to do with the topic neither there is any element of surrender.


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## anathema

Black Blood said:


> Good work !



Next time remind me of the same sentiment when TTP beheads or blasts of convoy of rangers...I would love to pay your soldiers in kind..In my eyes they are no better.....I am pretty sure that many in NWFP would share the same sentiment.....


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## Gandhi G in da house

chodo yaar , ye to chalta hi rahega - They ll kill 2 soldiers , we' ll kill twenty of those separatist/ militant scum. Rest in peace you those brave soldiers.

I hope this matter gets solved quickly


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## The HBS Guy

Black Blood said:


> They do and i have had threads on that - check them out !
> 
> They deserve respect only when defending their homeland not dead while trying to keep their illegal oppression in place and defying international rules , keeping international media out , not allowing local politicians to go abroad and participate in events - ban SMS and Television and mobile service , Internet.
> 
> "Morality and gun are opposite - morality dies when gun starts"



Kindly see the video in post 41. Speaks truckloads for what should be and should not be done.


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## Gandhi G in da house

chodo yaar , ye to chalta hi rahega - They ll kill 2 soldiers , we' ll kill twenty of those separatist/ militant scum. Rest in peace to those brave soldiers.

I hope this problem gets solved quickly.


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## The HBS Guy

anathema said:


> Next time remind me of the same sentiment when TTP beheads or blasts of convoy of rangers...I would love to pay your soldiers in kind..In my eyes they are no better.....I am pretty sure that many in NWFP would share the same sentiment.....



No you won't. Two wrongs do not make a right.

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## Toshiba

@indians,

obama truly said that there are terror havens across the border,


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## Rig Vedic

Any combatants who are not in uniform endanger the civilian population and thus deserve nothing other than being lined up and shot.

Since Pakistan does not ensure that all combatants crossing the line of control are wear Pakistan uniform, full responsibility for any collateral damage lies with Pakistan alone.


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## Spring Onion

mikey said:


> you are not kashmir nor this forum rite ? ?



Neither are you. 

You and your army in Country of Kashmir occupied by India, are invaders. You are Indians and NOT Kashmiris.



Now come back to the equation of Indians and Pakistani and this forum then 


Indians, Indian members, Indian army in IoK and Indian puppets in IoK are supporters of invasion of Country of Kashmir.


Pakistanis, Pakistani members and this forum are supporter of right of Kashmiris to get their country back from Indian occupation.


May God give strengthen to Kashmiris and Kashmiri fighters

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## dabong1

DRDO said:


> *Nearly 59,000 families migrated from Kashmir due to militancy*
> 
> Agencies Tags : Number of Kashmiri migrants, Valley Posted: Tue Nov 09 2010, 15:35 hrs New Delhi:
> 
> Nearly 59,000 families are reported to have migrated from Kashmir following the outbreak of militancy in the 1990s and none of them has returned to the Valley till now, Government said.
> 
> "Due to the onset of militancy in the 1990's, 58,697 families are reported to have migrated from the Valley and are temporarily settled in Jammu, Delhi and other parts of the country," Minister of State for Home Ajay Maken said in a written reply to Lok Sabha.
> 
> Giving details of the various measures taken for rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants, he said 200 flats have been constructed at Sheikpora in Budgam district.
> 
> Two model clusters in Matttan and Kheer Bhavani containing temporary shelters for Kashmiri migrants have 18 flats and 100 one-room tenements respectively, Maken said.
> 
> Maken said no family has returned to the Valley and it is not possible to indicate any time line for the same.
> 
> Nearly 59,000 families migrated from Kashmir due to militancy
> 
> Who is responsible for that




Dont forget the one and half million kashmiri refugees in pakistan and AJK!

I think you will find that it is the indian govt that is responsible for the killing fields of kashmir......Have a vote on the issue and we have peace.


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## Peshwa

Black Blood said:


> Its a Disputed territory recognized by United Nations and this is why the border is called the Line of Control.
> 
> Kashmir is not Your motherland it belongs to Kashmiris and you Invaded it in 1948.
> 
> You cannot just go around and spread your propaganda on this- Jammu & Kashmir is a disputed region occupied by you and where your these very soldiers have killed Thousands of Kashmiris over their period of oppression.
> 
> *The Invasion soldiers don't deserve any respect specially when they are carrying out mass atrocities*.



As history documents it....the invaders were the Lashkars and the regular army of Pakistan that invaded the Kashmiris....without their permission mind you....

So start by taking away the "Shahadat" for all those invaders who have been responsible for the current Kashmir mess...

PS: Unless you have a signed document from Kashmiris stating they seeked Pakistani help which resulting in the invasion....please dont even bother arguing...

Hypocrisy runs deep in many Pakistanis...

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## Spring Onion

anathema said:


> Next time remind me of the same sentiment when TTP beheads or blasts of convoy of rangers...I would love to pay your soldiers in kind..In my eyes they are no better.....I am pretty sure that many in NWFP would share the same sentiment.....



 i am from NWFP/KP and many from my province of Pakistan share one thing that is that we can spit on India trillion times when it comes to Indian terrorism against our country.

We had liberated one part of Kashmir and we are ready to kill every invader soldier in IoK.


Rest you can poke your nose over TTP we dont care what bhartis say as it does not matter 

For one KP/Balochistan India have two dozen insurgencies

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## Toshiba

Jana said:


> Neither are you.
> 
> You and your army in Country of Kashmir occupied by India, are invaders. You are Indians and NOT Kashmiris.
> 
> 
> 
> Now come back to the equation of Indians and Pakistani and this forum then
> 
> 
> Indians, Indian members, Indian army in IoK and Indian puppets in IoK are supporters of invasion of Country of Kashmir.
> 
> 
> Pakistanis, Pakistani members and this forum are supporter of right of Kashmiris to get their country back from Indian occupation.
> 
> 
> May God give strengthen to Kashmiris and Kashmiri fighters



i can say same abt insurgency in pakistan


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## Peshwa

Jana said:


> Neither are you.
> 
> You and your army in Country of Kashmir occupied by India, are invaders. You are Indians and NOT Kashmiris.
> 
> 
> 
> Now come back to the equation of Indians and Pakistani and this forum then
> 
> 
> Indians, Indian members, Indian army in IoK and Indian puppets in IoK are supporters of invasion of Country of Kashmir.
> 
> 
> Pakistanis, Pakistani members and this forum are supporter of right of Kashmiris to get their country back from Indian occupation.
> 
> 
> May God give strengthen to Kashmiris and Kashmiri fighters



So by that logic, you are interfering in the matter of a seperate nation.....aka Kashmir as you claim...

Who gave you the right to do so? Have the Kashmiris as an "independent" people ratified such moves? Do you have any proof that the Kashmiris even want your interference?

We maybe criminals and thieves...but damn us if we are going to be criticized by other Criminals and Thieves....

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## Spring Onion

Peshwa said:


> As history documents it....the invaders were the Lashkars and the regular army of Pakistan that invaded the Kashmiris....without their permission mind you....
> 
> So start by taking away the "Shahadat" for all those invaders who have been responsible for the current Kashmir mess...
> 
> PS: Unless you have a signed document from Kashmiris stating they seeked Pakistani help which resulting in the invasion....please dont even bother arguing...
> *
> Hypocrisy runs deep in many Pakistanis.*..



Hypocrisy runs deep in Indians for the matter that if bharat had a document which would have signed according to the wishes of the common Kashmiris then you would not have the headache of keeping thousands of Army, paramilitary, and puppets now in Kashmir country .


A document signed through blackmailing the tyrant raja by India conditioning it with sending the army to counter the Kashmiri fighters, IS NOT AT ALL legal neither recognised by the international laws.


So all in all

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## The HBS Guy

Peshwa said:


> We maybe criminals and thieves...but damn us if we are going to be criticized by other Criminals and Thieves....



You nailed it bro!

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## Spring Onion

Peshwa said:


> So by that logic, you are interfering in the matter of a seperate nation.....aka Kashmir as you claim...



We have NOT YET interfered. 



> Who gave you the right to do so? Have the Kashmiris as an "independent" people ratified such moves? Do you have any proof that the Kashmiris even want your interference?



The Pakistani flags in IoK are in itself an evidence.

What Kashmiris want if you want to know just hold an independent plebiscite under International bodies/orgs and let the Kashmiris decide.

If the Kashmiri decide to join India then we will send you congrats and sweet and accept it.


If they want to be independent we will welcome it as well.

If they want to join Pakistan we will welcome it as well




> We maybe criminals and thieves...but damn us if we are going to be criticized by other Criminals and Thieves....



You should be criticised because we still have some principles, India does not have any viz a viz Kashmir

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## Spring Onion

Toshiba said:


> i can say same abt insurgency in pakistan



 we have not said anything about insurgencies in India yet.

Kashmir is not part of India hence its not an insurgency in India rather its struggle to kick out the invaders by Kashmiris from their country.


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## Toshiba

Jana said:


> we have not said anything about insurgencies in India yet.
> 
> Kashmir is not part of India hence its not an insurgency in India rather its struggle to kick out the invaders by Kashmiris from their country.



*kashmir is integral part of india*

we basically say--->>

bharat kashmir sey kanyakumari tak hai.

if u still dont understand hindi n english version,then i cant do anything.
baaki rab hi jaane

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## Mirza Jatt

Jana said:


> We have NOT YET interfered.



not officially.



> The Pakistani flags in IoK are in itself an evidence.



you mean at lal chowk..then what about the thousands of Indian flags in other parts of Kashmir like jammu and Ladakh ?



> What Kashmiris want if you want to know just hold an independent plebiscite under International bodies/orgs and let the Kashmiris decide.
> 
> If the Kashmiri decide to join India then we will send you congrats and sweet and accept it.
> 
> 
> If they want to be independent we will welcome it as well.
> 
> If they want to join Pakistan we will welcome it as well



if it was really so easy for you to accept everything peacefully, we wouldnt have seen the fights in 48,65 and 99.




> You should be criticised because we still have some principles, India does not have any viz a viz Kashmir



yeah,...your priniciples

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## Spring Onion

Indian Jatt said:


> you mean at lal chowk..then what about the thousands of Indian flags in other parts of Kashmir like jammu and Ladakh ?



Pakistani flags hoisted and hoisting by Common Kashmiris in Kashmir under Indian invasion is one thing and Indian flags' hoisting by occupier Indians in IoK is totally another.

the former shows the will of the Kashmiri the later is at gun point.





> if it was really so easy for you to accept everything peacefully, we wouldnt have seen the fights in 48,65 and 99.



If you have held the independent plebiscite we would not have seen 48, 65, 99.


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## forcetrip

I dont even know how to respond to this. I have written 3 different answers to my so called countrymen and thought of them as too harsh. I believe in the struggle for a free kashmir and my family is actively involved in this process. I will never disgrace a person fighting for what he feels right. The so called countrymen who think they are speaking for Pakistan or Kashmiris are speaking out of their *** and I would not bother responding to them. Every soldier fights for what he believes is right and he dies an honorable death. I pray for the martyred family. I just hope these foreigners still talking about Pakistan will understand the complexities of war one day, when they finally get to understand what they speak so freely about on these forums.

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## The HBS Guy

Jana said:


> If you have held the independent plebiscite we would not have seen 48, 65, 99.



Don't worry because we won't be seeing such wars again, you know why?

Because ab toh you just cannot take Kashmir from us.

You have two options:

1. Fight a nuclear war with us, prevail over us and then take kashmir.

2. Accept LoC as International Border.

Sau baaton kee ek baat, You are not getting Kashmir now. 

Jo karna hai kar lo.


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## Mirza Jatt

Jana said:


> Pakistani flags hoisted and hoisting by Common Kashmiris in Kashmir under Indian invasion is one thing and Indian flags' hoisting by occupier Indians in IoK is totally another.
> 
> the former shows the will of the Kashmiri the later is at gun point.



you mean flags hoisted by the Pak sponsored separatists ?? I know which part of kashmir they represent.




> If you have held the independent plebiscite we would not have seen 48, 65, 99.



where was your demand of plebiscite the way you are asking now..should have thought before attacking. so dont give me the crap, that you take every decision peacefully.

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## Spring Onion

forcetrip said:


> I dont even know how to respond to this. I have written 3 different answers to my so called countrymen and thought of them as too harsh. I believe in the struggle for a free kashmir and my family is actively involved in this process. I will never disgrace a person fighting for what he feels right. The so called countrymen who think they are speaking for Pakistan or Kashmiris are speaking out of their *** and I would not bother responding to them. Every soldier fights for what he believes is right and he dies an honorable death. I pray for the martyred family. I just hope these foreigners still talking about Pakistan will understand the complexities of war one day, when they finally get to understand what they speak so freely about on these forums.



disgracing ? who is disgracing Indian occupier soldiers with regard to Kashmir ?

Nobody says "good job" when any Indian security official is killed in any Indian insurgency area like Maoist, naxal area.


Here when it comes to Kashmir 

We support the oppressed (Kashmiris/Kashmiri fighters) against the oppressor (Indian occupier army)


Just like Indians pat Israeli soldiers for killing Palestinians and we criticise Israeli soldiers for the same.
what is so hard to understand that ?

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## majesticpankaj

guys...shut it down.. lets pray for the martyr and their familiy..


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## The HBS Guy

Jana said:


> what is so hard to understand that ?



Please read post 65 and answer this same question.


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## Spring Onion

Indian Jatt said:


> you mean flags hoisted by the Pak sponsored separatists ?? I know which part of kashmir they represent.



 clinging to straws?

Thousands of Kashmiris including women and children coming on roads against Indian invaders are sponsored by Pakistan ?????????




> where was your demand of plebiscite the way you are asking now..should have thought before attacking. s*o dont give me the crap,* that you take every decision peacefully.




oK YOU can have your own crap if you think that works though it fail to work uptill now.


Kashmiris say bhooka nanga hindustan jan say pyara Pakistan.

Thats not our fault indeed something is wrong at your end.


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## Ammyy

nick_indian said:


> chodo yaar , ye to chalta hi rahega - They ll kill 2 soldiers , we' ll kill twenty of those separatist/ militant scum. Rest in peace to those brave soldiers.
> 
> I hope this problem gets solved quickly.



Buddy dnt compare our brave soldier with those terrorist 

It doesn't matter how many of them died but single one of our brave soul cost a lot.

RIP to brave soldier.

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## forcetrip

Jana said:


> disgracing ? who is disgracing Indian occupier soldiers with regard to Kashmir ?
> 
> Nobody says "good job" when any Indian security official is killed in any Indian insurgency area like Maoist, naxal area.
> 
> 
> Here when it comes to Kashmir
> 
> We support the oppressed (Kashmiris/Kashmiri fighters) against the oppressor (Indian occupier army)
> 
> 
> Just like Indians pat Israeli soldiers for killing Palestinians and we criticise Israeli soldiers for the same.
> what is so hard to understand that ?



You do not support anything and anyone by talking down to your enemy. You talk nonsense and it angers me beyond reproach. You have no idea how things are done and talk out of your turn and other orifices. Enough is enough. Give the dead what they deserve in whatever religion and whatever belief. I would expect the same from my enemy but if I do not get it I would have done my part.

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## Ammyy

Jana said:


> clinging to straws?
> 
> Thousands of Kashmiris including women and children coming on roads against Indian invaders are sponsored by Pakistan ?????????



The Hindu : News / National : Protest against shutdowns, Geelani tones down strike schedule


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## Peshwa

Jana said:


> Hypocrisy runs deep in Indians for the matter that if bharat had a document which would have signed according to the wishes of the common Kashmiris then you would not have the headache of keeping thousands of Army, paramilitary, and puppets now in Kashmir country .



Sorry...dont think thats called hypocrisy...



> A document signed through blackmailing the tyrant raja by India conditioning it with sending the army to counter the Kashmiri fighters, IS NOT AT ALL legal neither recognised by the international laws.



LOL...so your claim is that we blackmailed him to protect his country from invaders?
I think that sounds like a cry for help...more than blackmail...
And whats funny is that the blame is on India...NOT Pakistan for sending in invaders...AMAZING LOGIC!

So you expect us to help him free of charge? In the same light you should be fighting in the WOT without any expectation for compensation I think right? Or is your expectation of compensation considered blackmail too?

Besides....prove with documental evidence that the Raja was coerced into signing the document...
Seems proof of claim is the trend for pakistanis now and I demand the same...
Thank you!

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## Bhairava

Why are we even bothered to discuss/legitimise hunting down these Freedom fighters to some external party.??

These "freedom" fighters have signed their own freedom warrant when they shot two brave hearts. I can guarentee that in another few days they will be hunted down like *****.

*R.I.P Martyrs*....The nation will always remember you and your death will be avenged.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Forcetrip - May your tribe increase, *Sir.*

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## Spring Onion

forcetrip said:


> You do not support anything and anyone by talking down to your enemy. *You talk nonsense and it angers me beyond reproach*. You have no idea how things are done and talk out of your turn and other orifices. Enough is enough. Give the dead what they deserve in whatever religion and whatever belief. I would expect the same from my enemy but if I do not get it I would have done my part.



thats not my headache if you can not understand truth.

I had not insulted the dead so keep your sermon to yourself.

And if its about respecting the enemy then please lecture your Indian friends to respect the dead fighters as well if they have the courage.


for me Kashmiris have the right to fight against the invaders.

Period.


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## Mirza Jatt

Jana said:


> clinging to straws?
> 
> Thousands of Kashmiris including women and children coming on roads against Indian invaders are sponsored by Pakistan ?????????



we know it very well which specific part of kashmir that people belong to and who has the influence there. who do you think these seperatists work for ?? do you really think they need freedom with pakistan flag in their hands ?



> oK YOU can have your own crap if you think that works though it fail to work uptill now.



that isnt the answer........suits you though.




> Kashmiris say bhooka nanga hindustan jan say pyara Pakistan.
> 
> Thats not our fault indeed something is wrong at your end.



exactly..I for one agree that its our Govt's fault that we go to the extreme to prove the democracy..there are other effective ways to bring these puppets and their owners in line.


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## The HBS Guy

*@Jana: Did you read posts 65 and 69?*


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## Spring Onion

DRDO said:


> The Hindu : News / National : Protest against shutdowns, Geelani tones down strike schedule



Yes he did tone down in respect for Hindu rituals in IoK whereas Indians even kill innocent Kashmiris during ramadan.


It shows the difference between Indians and Kashmiris.


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## Toshiba

KingKong31 said:


> *@Jana: Did you read posts 65 and 69?*



she knows but truth hurts

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## Spring Onion

Indian Jatt said:


> *we know it very well which specific part of kashmir that people belong to and who has the influence there.* who do you think these seperatists work for ?? do you really think they need freedom with pakistan flag in their hands ?



Oh please dont tell me an Indian sitting in India can give the verdict that who they are.

Just hold a plebiscite if you think that India has the support of majority.

But Indian fear to lose and fear to face defeat for their claim is refraining you from holding plebiscite otherwise you would have done it.

Kashmiris need their country back from Indian occupation and thats what matters whether its with Pakistani flags in their hand or without Pakistani flags thats not an issue.





> exactly..I for one agree that its our Govt's fault that we go to the extreme to prove the democracy..there are other effective ways to bring these puppets and their owners in line.



 democracy ??? with weapons and killings ?


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## The HBS Guy

Jana said:


> Just hold a plebiscite if you think that India has the support of majority.
> 
> But Indian fear to lose and fear to face defeat for their claim is refraining you from holding plebiscite otherwise you would have done it.



We'd rather lose a nuclear war than a referendum.

P.S. You still haven't read posts 65 and 69 yet perhaps.


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## Bhairava

Again people...what is the need to justify the killings of "freedom" fighters to some external elements.?

*We do what we deem is necessary to protect our motherland..What is there to be apologetic about that ?*

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## The HBS Guy

Gounder said:


> Again people...what is the need to justify the killings of "freedom" fighters to some external elements.?
> 
> *We do what we deem is necessary to protect our motherland..What is there to be apologetic about that ?*



lol apologetic my ***. We'll cold-heartedly kill all kashmiris if we had to than lose an inch of our territory.


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## Creder

VOA | Kashmir's Young Generation Expresses Frustration With Stalemate | News | English


President Obama's decision to leave Kashmir as a bilateral India-Pakistan matter will come as a disappointment to those who hoped for a more robust U.S. role in mediating the conflict. That includes many young Kashmiris, mostly Muslims, in Indian-controlled Kashmir who see themselves trapped in a status quo stacked against them. Our correspondent has more from Srinagar, in the valley of Kashmir.

These are the faces of insurgency in India's Jammu and Kashmir state.

These men - all in their 20s - want their identity protected for fear of prosecution by India. They call for "azadi," or freedom from India. They join other young Kashmiris, mostly Muslim, who hurl stones at Indian security forces.

So-called "stonepelting" protests like this have spiked since June, when a Kashmiri young person was killed by a tear gas canister fired by police. More than a hundred Kashmiris have been killed since then. 

t's the most recent chapter in a 63-year old dispute over this region, claimed by both India and Pakistan. Militants in Indian Kashmir say they abandoned violence more than ten years ago, and the basic character of the separatist struggle is peaceful.

The stonepelters say they want to demonstrate peacefully but India uses excessive force to suppress them.

One of them shows wounds. He says he was shot twice.

"The police slowly took aim and shot me - like I was a target," he said.

Indian army and police enjoy legal immunity under emergency laws that apply to Indian-controlled Kashmir.

Police chief Shiv Murari Sahai says his officers try to use minimal force but are forced to shoot protesters who instigate violence.

"I don't think any law in any part of the world accepts the kind of violence that is happening here as a peaceful demonstration," said Sahai.

*Sahai echoes India's long-held assertion that the unrest is incited by a small minority in the predominantly Muslim valley.

"This is basically a fringe element - a lumpen element, which is of no productive use," he said. "And they have been very happily recruited by the militant organizations and the separatist organizations to create an environment in Kashmir to show as though things were completely out of control, which is not anywhere near reality."

*

*But many people tell a different story - of widespread frustration with India behaving like an occupying force.

This Australian woman and her Kashmiri husband moved to Srinagar so their children could learn Kashmir's traditions. But they say excessive curfews make normal life impossible.

"Sometimes it's been extremely tight curfew, there's been barbed wire along the road," she said. "You're not even allowed to move to the street to get, you know, bread, milk, all the necessary things. We actually aren't sending our kids to school, because we still feel it's extremely violent."

Usmaan Ahmad works for the U.S.-based organization, Mercy Corps. He says Kashmir is experiencing a "youth bulge" of unemployment and insecurity.

"This is a generation that's grown up entirely in conflict," said Ahmad. "They don't have any yardstick or measure to compare what average young people anywhere else in the world would call normal or healthy - and I think that has led to some very unhealthy outcomes."

*

(_This is actually pretty much the way it is, indians want to turn a blind eye to Kashmir hoping that the problem will just go away by itself...whereas its a whole different story when it comes to a reality check in kashmir_)

Some young Kashmiris are channeling their anger.

MC Kash is a rapper who distributes music over the Internet. He says he wants to tell the world about abuses in this region.

"The struggle my people have lived - it has of course broken my heart," he said. "It has made me think that if I don't speak for them, I'm not a Kashmiri."

Still, many young stonepelters feel it is too late to do anything productive with their lives.

"We can't do any jobs or work, there are so many files on us in police stations," said one.

As frustration grows, many fear young protesters may decide to put down their stones and pick up guns.


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## Peshwa

Jana said:


> We have NOT YET interfered.



Ramayan khatam hui aur yeh puch rahi hai....Ram ki Sita kaun?

Oh no....3 wars over Kashmir, 26/11, LET, JEM and a host of other proxies later you have the audacity to say this?

Seeing the result of the above...my suggestion is to hold the interference....it usually doesnt turn out too well for you guys...LOL!



> The Pakistani flags in IoK are in itself an evidence.
> 
> What Kashmiris want if you want to know just hold an independent plebiscite under International bodies/orgs and let the Kashmiris decide.
> 
> If the Kashmiri decide to join India then we will send you congrats and sweet and accept it.
> 
> 
> If they want to be independent we will welcome it as well.
> 
> If they want to join Pakistan we will welcome it as well



So the point is....

Kashmiris have NOT asked for your help...since raising a flag is nowhere in international nomenclature considered a sign of armed aggression into a terrirtory....so save the stupid flag example...

So plebiscite or not....Kashmiris have NOT asked for your help...so where do you even come about legitimizing your invasion?



> You should be criticised because we still have some principles, India does not have any viz a viz Kashmir



More than happy to face your criticism, hell we have some in Indian doing the same.......
just stop sending your proxies this way......

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## Mirza Jatt

Jana said:


> Oh please dont tell me an Indian sitting in India can give the verdict that who they are.
> 
> Just hold a plebiscite if you think that India has the support of majority.
> 
> But Indian fear to lose and fear to face defeat for their claim is refraining you from holding plebiscite otherwise you would have done it.
> 
> Kashmiris need their country back from Indian occupation and thats what matters whether its with Pakistani flags in their hand or without Pakistani flags thats not an issue.



ok so now the flag isnt an issue ? few posts before it was. 

anyways....as I said earlier, your demand of plebiscite does not hold any value....should have thought before acting.....and please dont tell me a pakistani fanboy poster sitting in pakistan can tell what should be done for Indian land...lol gimme a break.





> democracy ??? with weapons and killings ?



yeah democracy....feel it....feels better than many religious republics with guns and killings

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## The HBS Guy

*I still do not know why Jana has not replied to my posts 65 and 69.*


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## Spring Onion

KingKong31 said:


> lol apologetic my ***. *We'll cold-heartedly kill all kashmiris if we had to than lose an inch of our territory*.



surely you have the right to kill everyone if anyone comes to take Indian territory BUT since Kashmiris are not talking about taking bharat aka india hence you are the murderers in IoK.


You are killing innocent Kashmiris cold-heartedly that too in their own country.

Shame shame


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## Spring Onion

KingKong31 said:


> *I still do not know why Jana has not replied to my posts 65 and 69.*



Post your comments again because you are not that important that i should take pain to go back many pages


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## The HBS Guy

Jana said:


> surely you have the right to kill everyone if anyone comes to take Indian territory BUT since Kashmiris are not talking about taking bharat aka india hence you are the murderers in IoK.
> 
> 
> You are killing innocent Kashmiris cold-heartedly that too in their own country.
> 
> Shame shame



Yes shame on us murderers...happy? 























*BUT!*


















Kashmir ab bhi hamara hee rahega. 


Bbye

---------- Post added at 01:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:18 AM ----------




Jana said:


> Post your comments again because you are not that important that i should take pain to go back many pages



Neither are you


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## Spring Onion

Ok bharatiyas you can continue with your diatribe. i am off to sleep.


with a message: Kashmiris bravo for your sacrifices against the invaders. You have right to free your country from occupation of bharat.


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## Mirza Jatt

Jana said:


> Ok bharatiyas you can continue with your diatribe. i am off to sleep.
> 
> 
> with a message: Kashmiris bravo for your sacrifices against the invaders. You have right to free your country from occupation of bharat.



 plebiscite in dream tonight jana

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## Bhairava

Jana said:


> surely you have the right to kill everyone if anyone comes to take Indian territory BUT since Kashmiris are not talking about taking bharat aka india hence you are the murderers in IoK.
> 
> 
> You are killing innocent Kashmiris cold-heartedly that too in their own country.
> 
> Shame shame



Ok Jana...Shame shame puppy shame on us...Happy..What next ??

BTW Kashmir is still with India..It takes more than your shame shame to take Kashmir away.

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## majesticpankaj

^^^^^

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## The HBS Guy

Jana said:


> Ok bharatiyas you can continue with your diatribe. i am off to sleep.
> 
> 
> with a message: Kashmiris bravo for your sacrifices against the invaders. You have right to free your country from occupation of bharat.


*
Jo aayega, goli khayega!*

Now good night


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## Rafi

Bravo to brave Kashmiri people, indian soldiers deployed to - illegally occupy their country are viable targets. They should follow the example of some Israeli soldiers who refused to be deployed in Palestinian territory. 

The audacity and brave nature of the fighters is an inspiration, indian intellectuals like Araduti Roy have seen the writing on the wall, I would urge Kashmiri fighters to link themselves with Naxalites and others fighting for freedom

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## Rafi

Arundhati Roy asks what would independence mean to the people of Kashmir? | World news | The Guardian

*For the past 60 days or so, since about the end of June, the people of Kashmir have been free. Free in the most profound sense. They have shrugged off the terror of living their lives in the gun-sights of half a million heavily armed soldiers, in the most densely militarised zone in the world.*

*After 18 years of administering a military occupation, the Indian government's worst nightmare has come true. Having declared that the militant movement has been crushed, it is now faced with a non-violent mass protest, but not the kind it knows how to manage. This one is nourished by people's memory of years of repression in which tens of thousands have been killed, thousands have been "disappeared", hundreds of thousands tortured, injured, and humiliated. That kind of rage, once it finds utterance, cannot easily be tamed, rebottled and sent back to where it came from.*

*The separatist leaders who do appear and speak at the rallies are not leaders so much as followers, being guided by the phenomenal spontaneous energy of a caged, enraged people that has exploded on Kashmir's streets. Day after day, hundreds of thousands of people swarm around places that hold terrible memories for them. They demolish bunkers, break through cordons of concertina wire and stare straight down the barrels of soldiers' machine guns, saying what very few in India want to hear. Hum Kya Chahtey? Azadi! (We want freedom.) And, it has to be said, in equal numbers and with equal intensity: Jeevey jeevey Pakistan. (Long live Pakistan.)*

*On August 15, India's independence day, Lal Chowk, the nerve centre of Srinagar, was taken over by thousands of people who hoisted the Pakistani flag and wished each other "happy belated independence day" (Pakistan celebrates independence on August 14) and "happy slavery day". Humour obviously, has survived India's many torture centres and Abu Ghraibs in Kashmir.*

*As the crowd continued to swell I listened carefully to the slogans, because rhetoric often holds the key to all kinds of understanding. There were plenty of insults and humiliation for India: Ay jabiron ay zalimon, Kashmir hamara chhod do (Oh oppressors, Oh wicked ones, Get out of our Kashmir.) The slogan that cut through me like a knife and clean broke my heart was this one: Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itself - Pakistan.)*


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## gubbi

Black Blood said:


> Shut up! They gotten what they deserve - in my eyes occupying forces deserve zero respect.
> 
> Indian forces in Kahsmir to me are no different than Nazis or Israelis.
> I have no joy on these deaths but i dont have any empathy too.
> 
> These forces kill our brothers how the hell you can even expect us to "Respect" these morons.



Different yard sticks I see. Apply the same yard stick to Chinese authorities who suppressed Uighur rebellion with questionable means. Arent those Uighurs your "Brothers", eh? FOr the love of your brothers. I dare you to call them 'morons'. Lets see your brotherly love here now.

Such behavior is defined by a word - Hypocrisy.

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## Peshwa

Rafi said:


> Bravo to brave Kashmiri people, indian soldiers deployed to - illegally occupy their country are viable targets. They should follow the example of some Israeli soldiers who refused to be deployed in Palestinian territory.
> 
> The audacity and brave nature of the fighters is an inspiration, indian intellectuals like Araduti Roy have seen the writing on the wall, I would urge Kashmiri fighters to link *themselves with Naxalites and others fighting for freedom :*)



Fact check: Naxals are NOT fighting for freedom...

Messing with the naxal movement will only legitimize Indian actions....expect the solution to be light years away..

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## gubbi

Jana said:


> You are killing *innocent* Kashmiris cold-heartedly that too in their own country.



Innocent? Since when did Kashmiris become innocent? And why should we treat Kashmiris (who you all claim to be under our occupation) any different from other Indians? Why should we give them special privileges? 

Promises made by long dead politicians with political and diplomatic short sightedness and naiveness mean squat in today's world. 

Time to wake up and smell the coffee.

The writing's on the wall. You want Pakistan to progress towards prosperity and peace, Forget Kashmir!

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## Rafi

I salute a brave intellectual like Ms Roy, who has exposed the Nazi like indian occupation forces, while her praise for the brave Kashmiri's shows, that even though she is a Hindu and also an indian citizen. 

She has exposed the corrupt and state terrorist indian security forces, to the whole world.


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## Peshwa

Rafi said:


> Arundhati Roy asks what would independence mean to the people of Kashmir? | World news | The Guardian
> 
> *For the past 60 days or so, since about the end of June, the people of Kashmir have been free. Free in the most profound sense. They have shrugged off the terror of living their lives in the gun-sights of half a million heavily armed soldiers, in the most densely militarised zone in the world.*
> 
> *After 18 years of administering a military occupation, the Indian government's worst nightmare has come true. Having declared that the militant movement has been crushed, it is now faced with a non-violent mass protest, but not the kind it knows how to manage. This one is nourished by people's memory of years of repression in which tens of thousands have been killed, thousands have been "disappeared", hundreds of thousands tortured, injured, and humiliated. That kind of rage, once it finds utterance, cannot easily be tamed, rebottled and sent back to where it came from.*
> 
> *The separatist leaders who do appear and speak at the rallies are not leaders so much as followers, being guided by the phenomenal spontaneous energy of a caged, enraged people that has exploded on Kashmir's streets. Day after day, hundreds of thousands of people swarm around places that hold terrible memories for them. They demolish bunkers, break through cordons of concertina wire and stare straight down the barrels of soldiers' machine guns, saying what very few in India want to hear. Hum Kya Chahtey? Azadi! (We want freedom.) And, it has to be said, in equal numbers and with equal intensity: Jeevey jeevey Pakistan. (Long live Pakistan.)*
> 
> *On August 15, India's independence day, Lal Chowk, the nerve centre of Srinagar, was taken over by thousands of people who hoisted the Pakistani flag and wished each other "happy belated independence day" (Pakistan celebrates independence on August 14) and "happy slavery day". Humour obviously, has survived India's many torture centres and Abu Ghraibs in Kashmir.*
> 
> *As the crowd continued to swell I listened carefully to the slogans, because rhetoric often holds the key to all kinds of understanding. There were plenty of insults and humiliation for India: Ay jabiron ay zalimon, Kashmir hamara chhod do (Oh oppressors, Oh wicked ones, Get out of our Kashmir.) The slogan that cut through me like a knife and clean broke my heart was this one: Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itself - Pakistan.)*



Isnt freedom equally priceless to all humans?

So what makes Kashmiris so special while ignoring the "right to freedom" of other well established and ongoin freedom struggles?

The Uighirs come to mind,Tibetians, BLA, sections of the KP (Durand line) and a host of others...

So what have the Kashmiris done that they deserve freedom but not others?

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## Rafi

*The Indian military occupation of Kashmir makes monsters of us all. It allows Hindu chauvinists to target and victimise Muslims in India by holding them hostage to the freedom struggle being waged by Muslims in Kashmir.*

*india needs azadi from Kashmir just as much as - if not more than - Kashmir needs azadi from India.

· Arundhati Roy, 2008. A longer version of this article will be available tomorrow at outlookindia.com.*


----------



## gubbi

Rafi said:


> I salute a brave intellectual like Ms Roy,



Take her. Instead of Aishwarya Rai - whoz getting old now, which your soldiers requested for in Kargil, take Ms Roy!

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## SpArK

Rafi said:


> Bravo to brave Kashmiri people, indian soldiers deployed to - illegally occupy their country are viable targets. They should follow the example of some Israeli soldiers who refused to be deployed in Palestinian territory.
> 
> The audacity and brave nature of the fighters is an inspiration, indian intellectuals like *Araduti Roy* have seen the writing on the wall, I would urge Kashmiri fighters to link themselves with Naxalites and others fighting for freedom





First spell her name right before going  over her comments..

Btwn she is from my state and nobody listens to her here too..

Take her for free.. her words are just like her books.. fictional.

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## Rafi

Mr peshwa, because as the Palestinians - Kashmir is an internationally disputed area. It is even acknowledged by your govt. When they say that the issue will be discussed with Pakistan, if they believed it was a part of their country, why would they discuss part of their country's territory with a foreign country. 

As the brave Ms Roy and all the indians know, it is an illegal occupation, one where Mr nehru promised a plebiscite for, as far as I know non of the other things have a state's chief executive promising them a vote to decide their future


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## gubbi

Peshwa said:


> So what have the Kashmiris done that they deserve freedom but not others?



Come to think of it. Most of our brethren across the border have no idea about why Kashmir is important. They have absolutely no idea why Pakistan insists that India leave Kashmir.

Herd mentality.

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## Rafi

Ms Roy is a true inspiration, a person of conscience - her bravery to standing up to the Nazi like state cabal, who tries to intimidate her into silence. And all this brave lady has to defend the sweet voice of freedom, is her pen.

When the immortal phrase, "the pen is mightier, than the sword", Ms Roy is the embodiment of that analysis. 

*The Indian military occupation of Kashmir makes monsters of us all. It allows Hindu chauvinists to target and victimise Muslims in India by holding them hostage to the freedom struggle being waged by Muslims in Kashmir.*



*india needs azadi from Kashmir just as much as - if not more than - Kashmir needs azadi from India.*

Her pen, is the only resistance against chauvinists in the indian state, which wish to extinguish human freedom.


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## desiman

Rafi said:


> Bravo to brave Kashmiri people, indian soldiers deployed to - illegally occupy their country are viable targets. They should follow the example of some Israeli soldiers who refused to be deployed in Palestinian territory.
> 
> The audacity and brave nature of the fighters is an inspiration, indian intellectuals like Araduti Roy have seen the writing on the wall, I would urge Kashmiri fighters to link themselves with Naxalites and others fighting for freedom



Can the same be said about the people who kill pakistani troops in the north west ? Even they are fighting to get an external entity out of their lands, this is the main reason why I feel no sympathy towards the WOT in Pakistan. You justify and celebrate our soldiers deaths and they go crying around the world when the same thing happens to you. Pakistan's suffering will not end until its differentiation between good/bad terrorist comes to a close.

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## Rafi

YouTube - When Men Become Truly Free

This is dedicated to the Kashmiri , the Naxal people and all others, who are under the yoke of the Nazi indian state. 

And also Ms Roy, who because she speaks for the truth and justice, her life is under very serious threat from the same dark forces, who keep poor untouchables as slaves.


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## SpArK

Rafi said:


> Ms Roy is a true inspiration, a person of conscience - her bravery to standing up to the Nazi like state cabal, who tries to intimidate her into silence. And all this brave lady has to defend the sweet voice of freedom, is her pen.
> 
> When the immortal phrase, "the pen is mightier, than the sword", Ms Roy is the embodiment of that analysis.
> 
> *The Indian military occupation of Kashmir makes monsters of us all. It allows Hindu chauvinists to target and victimise Muslims in India by holding them hostage to the freedom struggle being waged by Muslims in Kashmir.*
> 
> 
> 
> *india needs azadi from Kashmir just as much as - if not more than - Kashmir needs azadi from India.*
> 
> Her pen, is the only resistance against chauvinists in the indian state, which wish to extinguish human freedom.



Ahhhhh....Quite a fan.. Have you read her book , yet...?? 

Well its called _God of small things_..nope its not about Kashmir struggle.

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## SpArK

Rafi said:


> This is dedicated to the Kashmir, the Naxal people and all others, who are under the yoke of the *Nazi *indian state.
> 
> And also Ms Roy, who because she speaks for the truth and justice, her life is under very serious threat from the same dark forces, who keep poor untouchables as slaves.



Are u ignorant or what?? 

Nazi ?? are we germans now???

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## Rafi

We do not want or except indian crocodile tears, the brave Kashmiri people have a right and their beautiful mass human protests are making their oppressor increasingly uneasy, and Ms Roy with her eloquence and bravery has exposed the Nazi indian state, people around the world listen to Ms Roy because of her great artistic gifts.

More power to this gracious and brave woman, may the Almighty protect her from the venom of the fascist indian establishment.


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## normandy

RIP for the brave sldiers..

@pakistani's no matter how much u ppl shout...how much u ppl support..!

The truth is and will remain "kashmir is an integral part of india"

Either wage war and take it....! or otherwise dont ...

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## SpArK

Rafi said:


> We do not want or except indian crocodile tears, the brave Kashmiri people have a right and their beautiful mass human protests are making their oppressor increasingly uneasy, and Ms Roy with her eloquence and bravery has exposed the Nazi indian state, people around the world listen to Ms Roy because of her great artistic gifts.
> 
> More power to this gracious and brave woman, may the Almighty protect her from the venom of the fascist indian establishment.



You keep on saying nazi germany, dark slave , oppressor, invader, arundhati roy is awsome etc etc as much as u wish and as long as you wish..

*But*

nothing... i mean nothing... nothing ever is going to change .... *ever*.

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## Rafi

BENNY said:


> Are u ignorant or what??
> 
> Nazi ?? are we germans now???



Ha ha ha, I will give you a little lesson, because you do not know, what you are talking about, Nazi is an abbreviation for National Socialism - which is a fascist political philosophy much admired in your country. That is why a large number of indians are named Hitler. Even Gandhi was an admirer, and exchanged some letters full of praise for him.

End of lesson.


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## SpArK

Rafi said:


> Ha ha ha, I will give you a little lesson, because you do not know, what you are talking about, Nazi is an abbreviation for *National Socialism - which is a fascist political philosophy much admired in your country*. That is why a large number of indians are named Hitler. Even Gandhi was an admirer, and exchanged some letters full of praise for him.
> 
> End of lesson.



Really 

Fascinating... amazing...

Do you have the letters with u??

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## Rafi

normandy said:


> RIP for the brave sldiers..
> 
> @pakistani's no matter how much u ppl shout...how much u ppl support..!
> 
> The truth is and will remain "kashmir is an integral part of india"
> 
> Either wage war and take it....! or otherwise dont ...



There is no bravery in taking a whole people prisoner, and shooting innocent civilians, if Kashmir was an integral part of india, why does india include it, in talks with the Pakistani govt.

Ms Roy has exposed indian hegemony - that is why the fascist indian cabal is trying to silence her voice, but a visionary like Ms Roy, because she is a booker prize winner, is to high profile for the state Nazi machine to destroy....


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## desiman

Rafi said:


> Ha ha ha, I will give you a little lesson, because you do not know, what you are talking about, Nazi is an abbreviation for National Socialism - which is a fascist political philosophy much admired in your country. That is why a large number of indians are named Hitler. Even Gandhi was an admirer, and exchanged some letters full of praise for him.
> 
> End of lesson.


*
large number of Indians are named Hitler ???????????????????????? Ohh god you are officially branded as being the most stupid anti Indian poster on here. Have fun with your delusions, you really need a doctor. 

regards

DM*

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## SpArK

desiman said:


> *
> large number of Indians are named Hitler ???????????????????????? Ohh god you are officially branded as being the most stupid anti Indian poster on here. Have fun with your delusions, you really need a doctor.
> 
> regards
> 
> DM*



No use desibhai... he will keep on repeating the same for many many more years to come..

Anyway waiting for tomorrow about the news that the bastards who has killed the brave soldiers are roasted by our army people.

Until then

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## Rafi

*Perhaps the most unusual of Gandhi's letters in the collection is a copy of a letter sent to Adolf Hitler, in which Gandhi expresses admiration for Hitler's passion for his nation, but urges him to seek non-violent means to address Germany's concerns.*

Gandhi writing to Adolf Hitler 

Hitler film exposes India's interest in dictator (AP)
Source: APFri Jun 25, 2010, 5:43 am EDT Comments Buzz up!
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NEW DELHI - When word spread this month that Bollywood planned a movie called "Dear Friend Hitler," screenwriter Nalin Singh was genuinely shocked it stirred even a small controversy.

The media expressed disdain, Jewish groups were horrified and his lead actor &#8212; though a bit baffled by the reaction &#8212; quit.

While such a response would seem, if anything, understated in much of the world, Singh had reason to believe his film would not generate even a ripple of scandal in India.

Here, Hitler is not viewed as the personification of evil, but with an attitude of morally ambiguous fascination. He is seen as a management guru &#8212; akin to Machiavelli or Sun Tzu &#8212; by business students, and an object of wonder by people craving order amid the chaos of India.

"Indians still have a curiosity about Hitler. The Western audience has seen a lot of films on Hitler, but there was no Hindi film on him," says Singh, explaining the choice of subject for his first film, which he hopes will be made by the end of the year.

Without a major role in World War II, India does not have the intense feelings toward the Nazis that many other nations have. In Bollywood movies, characters routinely call each other "Hitler" as a minor insult, referring to a nagging wife or annoying boss.

But Indians also have a strange fascination with the Nazi dictator, whose brutal dictatorship and slaughter of 6 million Jews has made his name synonymous with the devil in the West.

A few years ago a restaurant named Hitler's Cross opened in the suburbs of Mumbai complete with posters of the dictator and swastikas for decor. Protests from Jewish groups forced the owners to change the name to The Cross Cafe.

A home furnishings company was forced to withdraw a line of bedspreads called NAZI amid similar complaints.

"Mein Kampf," Hitler's semi-autobiographical book outlining his anti-Semitic ideology, sells thousands of copies a year in the upmarket, air-conditioned bookstores of New Delhi.

The book, free of copyright in India, is printed by over half a dozen publishers. It is even a staple amid the small stack of top-selling books hawked by young boys at traffic lights in India's cities.

The book once helped inspire India's far right Hindu politicians, who often expressed open admiration for Hitler, but it is now appealing to a new generation of less political readers.

"It's basically the young crowd. The rebellious," says Anuj Bahri, who runs Bahrisons, a popular book store in New Delhi's posh Khan Market.

"It's a constant seller and sells one, two copies a day," he says, adding that part of the draw for its young readership seems to lie in the fact that Hitler "defied the whole world and challenged the whole world."

Sociologist Ashish Nandy says a confluence of reasons explains why Indians are drawn to both the man and the book.

For some readers, modern India is a country in chaos and, there is a "certain admiration" for Hitler and his extreme authoritarianism.

There is also India's colonial inheritance when "every enemy of Britain was a friend of India and at least potentially a good person," he says, adding that among today's young readers "there is kind a vague sense that it's about a person who gave a tough time to the Brits."

Tarun Singhal, a management student at New Delhi's prestigious Indian Institute of Technology, who first read the book as a young undergraduate, says for him the book is uplifting.

"(It) serves as a reminder that nothing is unachievable," he said, adding that he is able to separate that message from the book's pervasive anti-Semitic ideology.

India's interest in Hitler, mirrors Nazi Germany's in India as the home of the purportedly pure Aryan race &#8212; which formed the basis of the Nazis' notions of racial supremacy. The Nazis also co-opted the ancient Hindu symbol of the swastika for the Nazi Party flag and arm bands.

When news about the Indian film on Hitler came out earlier this month, it might have been a step too far.

The title is a reference to two letters written by Indian independence leader Mohandas Gandhi to Hitler.

The first written in 1939 asked the Nazi leader to help prevent a "war which may reduce humanity to the savage state."

India's tiny Jewish community condemned the film as insensitive and the lead actor Anupam Kher dropped out saying he didn't want to upset anyone.

"It's very hurtful," says Jonathan Solomon of the India Jewish Federation, of the film's title. "The Jews in India were not the victims of anti-Semitism or the Holocaust, but we feel for our brother Jews and this is very hurtful to Jews all over the world."

But Singh is determined to see his script &#8212; which he says juxtaposes the personality of the German dictator against India's Gandhi &#8212; on celluloid and has the support of the film's producers. If he's able to persuade Kher to return to the project or find a replacement, the film should be ready by the end of the year, he says.

"It's misleading to say our film is glorifying Hitler," he says, adding that he just wants to make an "authentic" film for the Hindi film audiences.

Hitler film exposes India's interest in dictator (AP) - Yahoo! Movies

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## Fireurimagination

RIP to the brave soldiers, the hunt is on let's hope the army can hunt down and eliminate the killers ASAP


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## Rafi

desiman said:


> *
> large number of Indians are named Hitler ???????????????????????? Ohh god you are officially branded as being the most stupid anti Indian poster on here. Have fun with your delusions, you really need a doctor.
> 
> regards
> 
> DM*



One who knows his argument holds no weight, resorts to cheap insults, it proves that my contentions have hit a raw nerve.


----------



## Rafi

BENNY said:


> No use desibhai... he will keep on repeating the same for many many more years to come..
> 
> Anyway waiting for tomorrow about the news that the bastards who has killed the brave soldiers are roasted by our army people.
> 
> Until then



The bastards are the illegal occupation forces, who terrorise a whole people who are held prisoner, by a fascist state 

They deserve no pity.

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## normandy

Rafi said:


> There is no bravery in taking a whole people prisoner, and shooting innocent civilians, if Kashmir was an integral part of india, why does india include it, in talks with the Pakistani govt.



yeah and there is bravery in training the terrorist inside country's safe hevan and then send them to other country for killing inncent people..!



Rafi said:


> Ms Roy has exposed indian hegemony - *that is why the fascist indian cabal is trying to silence her voice*, but a visionary like Ms Roy, because she is a booker prize winner, is to high profile for the state Nazi machine to destroy....



M,S roy??? the traitor right?? and a cheap popularity seeker?? ohh she might be popular there isn't she?? silenceing here voice?? lol,,,,No one here even cared to arest here after here hateful statement...!
 nor the gov neither ppl take her seriously,,,,idk about other side of border...

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## Rafi

Fireurimagination said:


> RIP to the brave soldiers, the hunt is on let's hope the army can hunt down and eliminate the killers ASAP



When people fight for their freedom, thousands will take their place.
it does not matter if those brave hero's who did this operation die, they have the gratitude of their people. And they will continue to destroy the fascist oppressors.

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## normandy

Rafi said:


> The bastards are the illegal occupation forces, who terrorise a whole people who are held prisoner, by a fascist state
> 
> They deserve no pity.



This is what at the extream level you can think,,,rather then this....*What else you can do??*

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## normandy

Rafi said:


> When people fight for their freedom, thousands will take their place.
> it does not matter if those brave hero's who did this operation die, they have the gratitude of their people. And they will continue to destroy the fascist oppressors.



I reccommend you with true honoure .. plsss,,join those thousands and became a brave hero....plss ,sir we would have the pleasre to see you ........lol

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## Rafi

normandy said:


> yeah and there is bravery in training the terrorist inside country's safe hevan and then send them to other country for killing inncent people..!
> 
> 
> 
> M,S roy??? the traitor right?? and a cheap popularity seeker?? ohh she might be popular there isn't she?? silenceing here voice?? lol,,,,No one here even cared to arest here after here hateful statement...!
> nor the gov neither ppl take her seriously,,,,idk about other side of border...



indian nazi occupation forces are not innocent civilians, they chose to come to terrorise and oppress an innocent people, so they deserve absolutely no sympathy.

Ms Roy is no traitor, she has the genuine self interest of the indian people, she knows that the indian deep state, wishes to keep the poor under tight control. She is a hero, future generations in your country will build monuments to her, because she stared the devil (indian fascist state) in the eye, and the indian state blinked.


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## Rafi

normandy said:


> I reccommend you with true honoure .. plsss,,join those thousands and became a brave hero....plss ,sir we would have the pleasre to see you ........lol



We have so much support in your country, people are eager to sell your facist government out, many many people provide information that weakens your security from within. 

Even members of your security forces provide us with information, that allows ingress of our operatives, in a way you are a good enemy - that gives us so much opportunity.


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## Rafi

*As the crowd continued to swell I listened carefully to the slogans, because rhetoric often holds the key to all kinds of understanding. There were plenty of insults and humiliation for India: Ay jabiron ay zalimon, Kashmir hamara chhod do (Oh oppressors, Oh wicked ones, Get out of our Kashmir.) The slogan that cut through me like a knife and clean broke my heart was this one: Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itself - Pakistan.)*

Arundhati Roy

Salute to the brave lady....

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## normandy

Rafi said:


> indian nazi occupation forces are not innocent civilians, they chose to come to terrorise and oppress an innocent people, so they deserve absolutely no sympathy.



lol,,Did i asked you to sympathaies ?? read my post and then say..!
And yeah there is no need of your sympathy even if u want too ,,just keep your sympathy to yourself your soldiers needs that more then ours who are currently fight WOT and terrorist attacks within your country..!


Rafi said:


> Ms Roy is no traitor



May be in your eyes or of your countrymen or officials..!

*she is a traitor according to indians and thats what matters not your opinon*



Rafi said:


> she has the genuine self interest of the indian people, she knows that the indian deep state, wishes to keep the poor under tight control. She is a hero, future generations in your country will build monuments to her, because she stared the devil (indian fascist state) in the eye, and the indian state blinked.



lol,,her statments bring smiles on your face,,isn't it? 
either call indian force nazi or anything,,watever you want,,but your remarks worth anything?? not even a penny..! So,enjoy your comments on PDF dude,,,and have a cup of hot tea..

The reality
*
kashmir is and kashmir will remain an integral part of india...*

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## Toshiba

Rafi said:


> *As the crowd continued to swell I listened carefully to the slogans, because rhetoric often holds the key to all kinds of understanding. There were plenty of insults and humiliation for India: Ay jabiron ay zalimon, Kashmir hamara chhod do (Oh oppressors, Oh wicked ones, Get out of our Kashmir.) The slogan that cut through me like a knife and clean broke my heart was this one: Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itself - Pakistan.)*
> 
> Arundhati Roy
> 
> Salute to the brave lady....






> Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itself - Pakistan.




tell this to obama,who is bhooka nanga.

geelani was dancing due to his visit,let him to dance.he has got the answer

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## normandy

Rafi said:


> We have so much support in your country, people are eager to sell your facist government out, many many people provide information that weakens your security from within.
> 
> Even members of your security forces provide us with information, that allows ingress of our operatives, in a way you are a good enemy - that gives us so much opportunity.



WOW.!!! ,,congrats then and best of luck for your future plan sir..!

You are here and i hope you are young and i am here and i am young,,,,keep these words by me in your head..that will help you in future!

lets see wat will happen we both still got plenty of time to live,,and i am sure in your lifetime when you get old,,you will hear these words even at that time which your hearing now..!

"*kashmir is an kashmir will remain integral part of india*

just keep in your head this line,,it will help you for sure


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## aristocrat

Well rafi before commenting on ur post i would like to know ur take on 
a]why pak is interested in kashmir
and b]solution for kashmir according to you.


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## forcetrip

BENNY said:


> You keep on saying nazi germany, dark slave , oppressor, invader, arundhati roy is awsome etc etc as much as u wish and as long as you wish..
> 
> *But*
> 
> nothing... i mean nothing... nothing ever is going to change .... *ever*.



So say you .. The power of the human wave that does not include stupidity won over the subcontinent from the british .. India will not stand a chance if the leadership demands so.. Once we get over the ignorant ways to handle things .. the people of kashmir will not need a UN resolution or india's say in how to get to do things.. till then I will respect your comments as something the british said and did at the same location a long time ago as well and murdered people to stop the noise along the way.

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## deckingraj

forcetrip said:


> So say you .. The power of the human wave that does not include stupidity won over the subcontinent from the british .. India will not stand a chance if the leadership demands so.. Once we get over the ignorant ways to handle things .. the people of kashmir will not need a UN resolution or india's say in how to get to do things.. till then I will respect your comments as something the british said and did at the same location a long time ago as well and murdered people to stop the noise along the way.




Good luck with that....

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## forcetrip

deckingraj said:


> Good luck with that....



Thank you and goodluck to you as well.


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## JonAsad

deckingraj said:


> Good luck with that....



One should not forget their own history, we people of subcontinent struggled against british raj, we died, we tried, but in the end we got our independence after countless sacrifices, we credited Bhagat Singh and many more, Britishers labeled him and many more as terrorists. Kashmiri's are the same breed, as we are, they struggled with us then, only difference is that their struggle is still going on, and they will get what is their birth right, rightfully theirs, for what they are fighting for, dying for, for what we fought and died for, INDEPENDENCE

So good luck to you aswell.


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## Abhishek_

JonAsad said:


> *One should not forget their own history*, we people of subcontinent struggled against british raj, we died, we tried, but in the end we got our independence after countless sacrifices, we credited Bhagat Singh and many more, Britishers labeled him and many more as terrorists. Kashmiri's are the same breed, as we are, they struggled with us then, only difference is that their struggle is still going on, and they will get what is their birth right, rightfully theirs, for what they are fighting for, dying for, for what we fought and died for, INDEPENDENCE
> 
> So good luck to you as well.



you mean that Pakistan has been a country since 700BC? And since when did you clubbed Pakistanis with us down trodden Indians? I appreciate the "we" to refer to the sub-continent, its just hard to digest when we keep hearing that Pakistan always had it's separate identity since the big bang

As for the independence struggle, bhagat singh is held in high regard but he still failed to get us independent. It was the non-violent movement of Gandhi that led to the independence. I don't recall Gandhi throwing stones at anyone. So lets not compare the Kashmir situation with India's independence struggle.

I admit kashmiris have issues, but pelting stones will make matters worse for them. Fighting from a disadvantaged position is very costly; Kashmiris separatists, which are a minority if I may add need to understand that dialogue (non-violence) is the only way forward. This is very similar to the current Indo-Pak quagmire as well.

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## Rafi

Thanks for my friends reminding me about, the Brits - they too felt they would never leave, look forward to the day when we will see a great big statue to Ms Roy in the centre of delhi, where indian's will bring their children to pay homage to the saviour of india. 

The courage of Ms Roy humbles us all....


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## Abhishek_

while you're at it you might as well look forward to the day dinosaurs walk again

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## StingRoy

Rafi said:


> Thanks for my friends reminding me about, the Brits - they too felt they would never leave, look forward to the day when we will see a great big statue to Ms Roy in the centre of delhi, where indian's will bring their children to pay homage to the saviour of india.
> The courage of Ms Roy humbles us all....



Waah bhai... waah.. badi asaani se humble ho jaata hai tu to... 

Buddy she is a 'no_one'... don't compare her to our freedom fighters... 

Our freedom fighters sacrificed their lives for us to see today. She just gave one speech and becomes a freedom fighter at the same time living in an air conditioned mansion with all the luxuries that 99% people in both India and Pakistan cannot afford?

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## Rafi

Well there is a movement of left leaning indian students in the US and UK and all over the world, that actually think very highly of Ms Roy, in fact they think that the Naxalite movement does justice for the poor.

Some people have gained egress, and you find them raising awareness, by organising exhibitions, about untouchables and tribal's, to them Ms Roy is a hero and a royal model, in fact I have heard them refer to her as a "revolutionary ideal".


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## Rafi

dezi said:


> Waah bhai... waah.. badi asaani se humble ho jaata hai tu to...
> 
> Buddy she is a 'no_one'... don't compare her to our freedom fighters...
> 
> Our freedom fighters sacrificed their lives for us to see today. She just gave one speech and becomes a freedom fighter at the same time living in an air conditioned mansion with all the luxuries that 99% people in both India and Pakistan cannot afford?



Hi dezi buddy, IMHO people should be judged on their actions and not by their background, Ms Roy speaks her mind, knowing in a third world society that could get her into serious trouble. 

Even if we disagree with her, her bravery for being a woman and an intellectual - are indeed laudable.


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## Rafi

dezi tuusi Punjabi ho.


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## PakSher

gaurav yadav said:


> The bastards shall be killed



But the Indian soldiers are already killed?


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## StingRoy

@Rafi... her bravery or stupidity (perspectives) is indeed laudable. But your comment about giving her the stature given to our freedom fighters was at best a cheap comment. Respect of that cadre are hard earned.


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## StingRoy

self delete


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## Rafi

aristocrat said:


> Well rafi before commenting on ur post i would like to know ur take on
> a]why pak is interested in kashmir
> and b]solution for kashmir according to you.



Pakistan is interested in Kashmir, because of the big Kashmiri diaspora, throughout the country, who keep pressure on elected officials, regarding occupied Kashmir, it's like your tamils - are concerned for their cousins in Lanka. But the main issue is it is left over of partition, and we feel a brotherhood to the people who feel oppressed. If we had a vote and the people their made the decision to be part of india, as nehru promised them. Then all this war and hatred would be largely dissipated, and both our countries could have a normal relationship.


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## Rafi

dezi said:


> @Rafi... her bravery or stupidity (perspectives) is indeed laudable. But your comment about giving her the stature given to our freedom fighters was at best a cheap comment. Respect of that cadre are hard earned.



@dezi my friend - I will have to reply with a cliché - one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Freedom fighters against the Brits were called terrorists. 
I am not trying to be facetious - I genuinely think she is being patriotic by calling for withdrawal from IOK.


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## gubbi

Reading through all the 11 pages, I am amused at many posts by our beloved friend, Mr. Rafi! From an incident where two CRPF men lost their lives to a cowardly attack by militants to Ms Roy! My my, the discussion has indeed remained on track. Thanks to Rafi!

Hence, I officially declare Rafi to be our new inhouse jester. We miss Mustiliej70 a lot. Rafi, you are the most appropriate and worthy successor to that crown!

Bask in thine glory, oh jester!

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## Rafi

gubbi said:


> Reading through all the 11 pages, I am amused at many posts by our beloved friend, Mr. Rafi! From an incident where two CRPF men lost their lives to a cowardly attack by militants to Ms Roy! My my, the discussion has indeed remained on track. Thanks to Rafi!
> 
> Hence, I officially declare Rafi to be our new inhouse jester. We miss Mustiliej70 a lot. Rafi, you are the most appropriate and worthy successor to that crown!
> 
> Bask in thine glory, oh jester!



My, my, I have managed to get under the skin of some indians here, to insult is a sign of an argument lost. My friend you are the immature one, if to get a point across, you need to go back to kindergarten.

Allow me to retort - sticks and stones may break your bones, but insults never hurt anyone.


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## Rafi

The indian soldiers died because their own state betrayed them by sending them to occupy and oppress another people, there is a history and a chain of events that led them to their deaths, indians can't pretend it was in some sort of vacuum.

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## mikey

Jana said:


> i am from NWFP/KP and many from my province of Pakistan share one thing that is that we can spit on India trillion times when it comes to Indian terrorism against our country.
> 
> We had liberated one part of Kashmir and we are ready to kill every invader soldier in IoK.
> 
> 
> Rest you can poke your nose over TTP we dont care what bhartis say as it does not matter
> 
> For one KP/Balochistan India have two dozen insurgencies



jana ji india gotta dozen insurgencies and we tackle succesfully like northeast and kashmir is today much peaceful than early or late 90s but you have only one but it makes you bleeding everyday ,pakistan is failing to curb this menace accept it...open your morning NP and read the headlines where you had bomblast yestrday ...

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## Rafi

mikey don't worry keep gettin your soldiers killed....


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## Rafi

mikey said:


> and 1 more advice 4 u m8 ,Be a pak sher in here too not a coward ,btw do pakistan have sher in zoo only dont know what your national animal ?



How do you know he is a coward, how brave are you to call some one that when he is not online


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## Rafi

mikey said:


> yea! ! I am sad that they matyr without giving fitting reply to cowards ,as positiond in market at defensive mode.



you need to spell martyr right first, don't you have spell checker. 

And the indian's soldiers are repressing innocent Kashmiri civilians they are the true cowards.


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## Vimana1

RIP to the dead


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## PakSher

mikey said:


> and 1 more advice 4 u m8 ,Be a pak sher in here too not a coward ,btw do pakistan have sher in zoo only dont know what your national animal ?



Though proud to come from a military family for generations. Many of my family members have had the honor to kill many Indian soldiers and shoot down several IAF planes.


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## The HBS Guy

Rafi said:


> you need to spell martyr right first, don't you have spell checker.



Relax! No need to get worked up over a small typo.


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## The HBS Guy

JonAsad said:


> One should not forget their own history, we people of subcontinent struggled against british raj, we died, we tried, but in the end we got our independence after countless sacrifices, we credited Bhagat Singh and many more, Britishers labeled him and many more as terrorists. Kashmiri's are the same breed, as we are, they struggled with us then, only difference is that their struggle is still going on, and they will get what is their birth right, rightfully theirs, for what they are fighting for, dying for, for what we fought and died for, INDEPENDENCE
> 
> So good luck to you aswell.



lol I find the naivety of Pakistanis so amusing. After 63 years of struggling for Kashmir, you have not come to grasp one single difference between us and the brtish:

The british DID NOT consider British India as their integral territory whereas we Indians do consider Kashmir to be our Integral part and it's not a rant or something, we actually mean it....WE MEAN IT!

India was a colony for the british and a means of exploitation whereas Kashmir for us is same as Haryana, Punjab or Kerala i.e. AN INTEGRAL PART OF INDIA.

Now, let me get this to your head, British were not willing to use all means at their disposal to keep India colonised, while we Indians ARE willing to use all means (military/economic/diplomatic) at our disposal to keep Kashmir firmly as an integral part of our country.

You and those asking for freedom have only two options:

1. Fight a nuclear war with us, prevail over us and then take Kashmir.

2. Accept LoC as an international border.

Although those asking for autonomy or other such demands are free to protest using all non-violent means at their disposal.


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## Ganguly

PakSher said:


> Though proud to come from a military family for generations. Many of my family members have had the honor to kill many Indian soldiers and shoot down several IAF planes.



I guess your family members used the same gun to kill many Indian soldiers and shoot down several IAF planes. Bollywood, please take a note of it. Nice plot.


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## PakSher

KingKong31 said:


> lol I find the naivety of Pakistanis so amusing. After 63 years of struggling for Kashmir, you have not come to grasp one single difference between us and the brtish:
> 
> The british DID NOT consider British India as their integral territory whereas we Indians do consider Kashmir to be our Integral part and it's not a rant or something, we actually mean it....WE MEAN IT!
> 
> India was a colony for the british and a means of exploitation whereas Kashmir for us is same as Haryana, Punjab or Kerala i.e. AN INTEGRAL PART OF INDIA.
> 
> Now, let me get this to your head, British were not willing to use all means at their disposal to keep India colonised, while we Indians ARE willing to use all means (military/economic/diplomatic) at our disposal to keep Kashmir firmly as an integral part of our country.
> 
> You and those asking for freedom have only two options:
> 
> 1. Fight a nuclear war with us, prevail over us and then take Kashmir.
> 
> 2. Accept LoC as an international border.
> 
> Although those asking for autonomy or other such demands are free to protest using all non-violent means at their disposal.



The freedom of Kashmir will come. There may be dispute between Koreas or a dispute on Falkland Islands but a resolution will come. Kashmir will be free in the years to come. Now everyone in the world knows there is a Kashmir problem.


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## Vimana1

Everyone knows Kashmir is one of the oldest conflicts but all major nations say it is an internal matter for Pakistan and India to resolve and even Obama said himself this whilst in India. Therefore no 3rd party will try to act like mediator in this matter.


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## PakSher

Ganguly said:


> I guess your family members used the same gun to kill many Indian soldiers and shoot down several IAF planes. Bollywood, please take a note of it. Nice plot.



Comparing the heroes of Pakistan with the kunjars of bollywood can only come from a veggie mind, since too many veggies cause a special gas that can get to the brain sometimes causing slow and permanent brain damage.


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## The HBS Guy

PakSher said:


> the world knows there is a Kashmir problem.



Exactly! The entire world may know that there is a 'problem' and that's where the awareness ends.

Even India agrees that Kashmir is a 'problem' or an 'issue' but not a 'dispute'.


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## The HBS Guy

PakSher said:


> The freedom of Kashmir will come.



Not 'freedom' pre se but yes an agreeable solution may be found.

For freedom, you'll have to fight a nuclear war with us and then prevail over us.


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## PakSher

KingKong31 said:


> Not 'freedom' pre se but yes an agreeable solution may be found.
> 
> For freedom, you'll have to fight a nuclear war with us and then prevail over us.



Thanks for the suggestion and understanding, but 2 pending UN resolutions are there and India will have to abide by them sooner or later.


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## The HBS Guy

PakSher said:


> Thanks for the suggestion and understanding, but 2 pending UN resolutions are there and India will have to abide by them sooner or later.



No we don't have to.

1. The resolutions are not binding. 

2. The resolutions do not offer any option for 'independence'. The only options available are to join India or Pakistan.

3. The Simla agreement (Simla Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) supersedes the UN resolutions and thereby making them null and void.

4. A part of J&K was ceded to China by Pakistan, namely, Aksai Chin.

5. Pakistan has allowed people from pakistani mainland to settle into the UN recognised territory of J&K and hence causing an imbalance in the number of people who were originally from Kashmir.

For Pakistan to harp on UN Resolutions is both morally and legally untenable.

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## Ganguly

PakSher said:


> Comparing the heroes of Pakistan with the kunjars of bollywood can only come from a veggie mind, since *too many veggies cause a special gas *that can get to the brain sometimes causing slow and permanent brain damage.



So acurate description confirms, you inhale those gases frequently. Good for you.

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## Areesh

Great work. Hopefully they would continue with the same strategy of using silence guns for attacks. It is necessary to keep the enemy bleeding along with the political resolve for the achievement of freedom. Hopefully after this incident soldiers from regular troops are eliminated in the same manner silently. Keep it up. The GOI has deployed 600000+ guys for you to hunt and you have the license to hunt. It 's all yours guys

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## EgO Boy

*YOU MADE MY DAY CREDER *


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## The HBS Guy

KingKong31 said:


> No we don't have to.
> 
> 1. The resolutions are not binding.
> 
> 2. The resolutions do not offer any option for 'independence'. The only options available are to join India or Pakistan.
> 
> 3. The Simla agreement (Simla Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) supersedes the UN resolutions and thereby making them null and void.
> 
> 4. A part of J&K was ceded to China by Pakistan, namely, Aksai Chin.
> 
> 5. Pakistan has allowed people from pakistani mainland to settle into the UN recognised territory of J&K and hence causing an imbalance in the number of people who were originally from Kashmir.
> 
> For Pakistan to harp on UN Resolutions is both morally and legally untenable.



Will anyone care to reply?

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## mikey

Areesh said:


> Great work. Hopefully they would continue with the same strategy of using silence guns for attacks. It is necessary to keep the enemy bleeding along with the political resolve for the achievement of freedom. Hopefully after this incident soldiers from regular troops are eliminated in the same manner silently. Keep it up. The GOI has deployed 600000 guys for you to hunt and you have the license to hunt. It 's all yours guys


sir, dont worry these men are frm Paramilitary ,600000 are still intact lol..and this is still so low in compare with those get encounterd every day! ! Now the ratio is 6:1 sir..


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## Areesh

> *Kashmir interlocutors on Wednesday faced an embarrassing situation in north Kashmir's Baramulla district when no major civil society bodies, traders, transporters or lawyers came to meet them during their visit. Academician Radha Kumar and information commissioner MM Ansari reached Baramulla town,
> 60 km north of Srinagar, in the afternoon after staying in Ladakh for a day. Before landing in Baramulla district, the interlocutors visited Kargil and met political, social and civil society members there.*
> 
> *In Baramulla town, for the whole day, no significant or high-profile delegation came to see them except for representatives of mainstream political parties.*
> 
> The interlocutors had intimated local divisional commissioner and state government authorities to rope in civil society members in the district. But the administration failed to attract any significant delegate from among fruit traders, transporters or lawyers from the district.
> 
> Hardline Hurriyat Conference chairman Syed Ali Shah Geelani has asked people to boycott the interlocutors till his five-point demands are met by New Delhi, which includes demilitarization and declaring Kashmir as an international dispute.
> 
> "Nothing major happened in Baramulla district today (Wednesday)," Kumar told the Hindustan Times.
> 
> The interlocutors, however, met a journalists' body, which included a Tongo (horse-driven cart)-owner Nissar Yatoo.
> 
> Major trade and lawyers bodies' are from north Kashmir with their base in Sopore, known as apple town of Kashmir, and Baramulla. It's the north Kashmir traders who favoured cross-LoC trade with Azad Jammu and Kashmir in the past.
> 
> Home minister P Chidamabaram met a series of delegations of traders, transporters and lawyers on his visit on October 31. But this time the interlocutors failed to evince any positive response from civil society or business houses.




Kashmir mediators face embarrassment in Baramulla


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## LaBong

> In Baramulla town, for the whole day, no significant or high-profile delegation came to see them except for representatives of mainstream political parties.



If Mohammad can't go to the mountain, let the mountain come to Mohammad.


Mediators shouldn't resort to any false ego.


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## Bhairava

Rafi said:


> I salute a brave intellectual like Ms Roy, who has exposed the Nazi like indian occupation forces, while her praise for the brave Kashmiri's shows, *that even though she is a Hindu* and also an indian citizen.



She is a Syrian Christian whose ancestors came as "refugees" to India.




gubbi said:


> Take her. Instead of *Aishwarya Rai* - whoz getting old now, which your soldiers requested for in Kargil, take Ms Roy!



Bhai...that is Madhuri Dixit.

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## gubbi

Rafi said:


> My, my, I have managed to get under the skin of some indians here, to insult is a sign of an argument lost. *My friend you are the immature one, if to get a point across, you need to go back to kindergarten*.
> 
> Allow me to retort - sticks and stones may break your bones, but insults never hurt anyone.




Lolz, look everyone, thus spake our inhouse jester!! Amused we all are, arent we not?

Rule 1: You never argue on the interwebz, for very obvious reasons.

Rule 2: Always discuss issues, in the interwebs, with knowledgeable people.

Rule 3: Debate, if you have to, with someone who knows what they are talking about.

Your posts, my friend, comply with none of the above. But hey, for your consolation, you do entertain us all. Please to be continuing with more of your jester posts.

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## gubbi

Gounder said:


> Bhai...that is Madhuri Dixit.



Madhuri Dixit was/is never negotiable! Dont you dare say that again!


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## Bhairava

gubbi said:


> Madhuri Dixit was/is *never negotiable*! Dont you dare say that again!



So said Capt.Vikram Batra PVC,



> "In reply to a Pakistani's taunt that they will leave Kashmir if the Indians give them Madhuri Dixit, a popular bollywood actress, Captain Batra gave him the reply, "Sorry, Madhuri is busy!". He then shot the taunter and said " From Madhuri,With love".



.Soory for the OT though guys.

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## Water Car Engineer

> *She is a Syrian Christian whose ancestors came as "refugees" to India.
> *


Orthodox Christians call themselves "Syrian Christians" because St. Thomas came from that area and spoke Syriac. Converts.

Deport that lady to Pakistan if they like her so much.

And I wonder what Pakistanis think of the people from Turkestan or Chechnya. Your brothers too? Why dont you care about them with such passion as Kashmir or Palestine? Double standards.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Omer says Pak has role to resolve Kashmir issue​*






JAMMU, (SANA): Chief Minister of Indian Held Kashmir Omar Abdullah reiterated that Pakistan has a very important role in the solution of Jammu and Kashmir and if it does so it would be a great achievement for both the nations.

Pakistan has an important role to play in resolving the Kashmir issue. But, it should play its role in right perspective and if Pakistan does this, it would be a big achievement for both the nations, Omar told reporters on the sidelines of a function in Jammu, adding that he saw a role for Pakistan in Kashmir.

He, however, suggested that the neighboring country should play its role in right perspective. 

Omar said; When our interlocutors talk about role of Pakistan, media gets worried that why they discussed Pakistan, but when Obama makes a reference to it, you say he does the right thing. This dual policy is wrong, he remarked.

Omer says Pak has role to resolve Kashmir issue


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## Bhairava

Of course Pakistan has a role in achieving Peace in J&K.

But the role is to *stop patronising "freedom" fighters* and in the future *accept LoC as IB*.

You cannot realistically expect anything more than that.

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## Leviza

Gounder said:


> Of course Pakistan has a role in achieving Peace in J&K.
> 
> But the role is to *stop patronising "freedom" fighters* and in the future *accept LoC as IB*.
> 
> You cannot realistically expect anything more than that.



you are a typical indian person, how can LOC become IB???
Even Kashmiries dont want this they want Kashmir to be a part of Pakistan.

Pakistan need to make sure Kashmir is its main policy towards india and india needs to resolve kashmir issue b4 becoming part of Un security Council.... so its in everyone interest to solve this issue but *mind that its cannot be on what india only wants*... its what kashmir and Pakistani wants.

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## UnitedPak

Gounder said:


> Of course Pakistan has a role in achieving Peace in J&K.
> 
> But the role is to *stop patronising "freedom" fighters* and in the future *accept LoC as IB*.
> 
> Nothing more than that.



The role is to enforce the rights and promises made to the Kashmiri people and help them decide their own future. The aspirations of a brutal occupying force are never going to be considered by any country. *There is nothing unreasonable or unrealistic about this and India will have to come to terms with this sooner or later.*

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## Bhairava

Leviza said:


> you are a typical indian person, how can LOC become IB???
> Even Kashmiries dont want this they want Kashmir to be a part of Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan need to make sure Kashmir is its main policy towards india and india needs to resolve kashmir issue b4 becoming part of Un security Council.... *so its in everyone interest to solve this issue but mind that its cannot be on what india only wants... its what kashmir and Pakistani wants.*




You sure are a funny (and a delusional if I may add) person...my friend.


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## Bhairava

UnitedPak said:


> *The role is to enforce the rights and promises made to the Kashmiri people* and help them decide their own future. The aspirations of a brutal occupying force are never going to be considered (by any nation). There is nothing unreasonable about this and India will have to come to terms with this sooner or later.



The sooner you (you ,as in Pakistanis) realise Pakistan is in *NO* position - diplomatically or militarily - to do that,the better for the peace in the region and more importantly for Pakistan itself.

I am not hyping,but that is the ground reality.

*EDIT:*..I forgot to add - another role of Pakistan is to discuss the issue of PaK with India as it also comes under the dispute.


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## Valiant_Soul

If he is talking about the the whole of Kashmir including P O K, then he should be aware of India's stance that India is ready to discuss that given there is absolute cease of cross-border terrorism and infiltration. I think that is what Obama has also said, and not what Mr Abdullah has heard. I O K alone is not an issue of Pakistan or any outsider, it is an internal issue.


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## UnitedPak

Gounder said:


> The sooner you (you ,as in Pakistanis) realise Pakistan is in *NO* position,be it diplomatically nor militarily to do that,the better for the peace in the region and more importantly for Pakistan itself.
> 
> I am not hyping,but that is the ground reality.



At least you admit that the struggle is between enforcing the rights and promises made to the Kashmiri people and not enforcing the rights and promises made to the Kashmiri people.

Regardless of military might, which struggle sounds morally plausible? Diplomatically this is a vertical battle for India and a roadblock for any serious global position. Its no wonder Indian politicians blow a fuse when the topic is mentioned by others.


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## Bhairava

UnitedPak said:


> *At least you admit* that the struggle is between enforcing the rights and promises made to the Kashmiri people and not enforcing the rights and promises made to the Kashmiri people.



Please dont twist my words,I have never said so.

Why should I when thats not the truth.India did not invade Kashmir in 1948,rather it was the Triblas from NWFP abetted by the Pakistan Army which sowed the seed for this crisis.

It was Pakistan Army that undertook Op.Gibralter.

It was Pakistan Army that undertook Kargil.

*And the "supposed" promises made by a naive,utopian politician six decades ago means squat today.*

*India is in such a diplomatic/military/economic position to easily say - My way or the highway*.



UnitedPak said:


> Regardless of military might, which struggle sounds morally plausible? Diplomatically this is a vertical battle for India and a roadblock for any serious global position.



"Defending India's territorial integrity" sounds more plausible to me.

Also regarding Road block to any UN/Global position issue :


First the stated position of India is that we dont need any global position if it is at the cost of our territorial integrity.Period.

Second I guess you have not heard that India got elected near unanimously in two key posts in the recent UN sessions and BHO gave US' support for our Permament membership candidacy,without as much as saying a single word on Kashmir.

Thirdly Even Core Muslim nations like Saudi,Oman and orgs like GCC dont give **** about kashmir and are signing economic and defence co-operation deals with India.What makes you think that the Western Countries that are becoming increasingly Islamo-phobic will care about kashmir and that too at the risk of dis-pleasing India.


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## UnitedPak

Gounder said:


> *And the "supposed" promises made by a naive,utopian politician six decades ago means squat today.*


Kashmiris would disagree with that and it seems they have every reason to not trust Indian politicians if this is the main stream belief. Independence is what Ghandi and Jinnah fought hard for. It still means a lot more than squat.



> "Defending India's territorial integrity" sounds more plausible to me.


Considered a disputed region by the whole world. Please dont waste time arguing against this.


> First the stated position of India is that we dont need any global position if it is at the cost of our territorial integrity.Period.




Disputed region. Period.


> [*]Second I guess you have not heard that India got elected near unanimously in two key posts in the recent UN sessions and BHO gave US' support for our Permament membership candidacy.


We dont know the full terms yet or who will support who for the actual UN seat. There are better candidates with more respect for UN resolutions.


> [*]Thirdly Even Core Muslim nations like Saudi,Oman dont give **** about kashmir and are signing economic and defence co-operation deals with India.What makes you think that the Western Countries that are becoming increasingly Islamo-phobic will care about kashmir and that too at the risk of dis-pleasing India.




"Islamophobia" is not a state policy of any Western country and neither is it a deal breaker for Human rights activists. OIC recently made a statement supporting Kashmiris and Kashmir black day was observed in plenty of Muslim countries including Saudi. 

While, no country supports Indian occupation and treatment of Kashmiris. Silence will only work for so long.


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## Bhairava

UnitedPak said:


> Kashmiris would disagree with that and it seems they have every reason to not trust Indian politicians if this is the main stream belief. Independence is what Ghandi and Jinnah fought hard for. It still means a lot more than squat.



Welcome to the world where might is right !!

Moreover the Shimal Agreement signed beween Indira and Bhutto supersedes the UN resolutions.

So either way it has gone past its expiry date.




UnitedPak said:


> Considered a disputed region by the whole world. Please dont waste time arguing against this.
> 
> Disputed region. Period.



No I am not going to argue,because what Pakistan and the rest of the world consider matters nilch to India.

you are free to think otherwise.



UnitedPak said:


> We dont know the full terms yet or who will support who for the actual UN seat. There are better candidates with more respect for UN resolutions.



Oh is it. ?? But the world thinks otherwise.

Infact even among the G-4 - recognised aspirants for the UNSC seat - the least opposed is India.

Maybe this Link will help clear some mis-conceptions.

And when our economic and military power increases,more will be added in the list.



UnitedPak said:


> "Islamophobia" is not a state policy of any Western country and neither is it a deal breaker for Human rights activists. OIC recently made a statement supporting Kashmiris and *Kashmir black day was observed in plenty of Muslim countries including Saudi. *
> 
> While, no country supports Indian occupation and treatment of Kashmiris. Silence will only work for so long.



Lol demonstrations against Iraq war were held in every city in India back in 2004.But did it change anything nor did it stop India from signing the nuke deals with US.

You sadly dont know how the world works today or you pretend that you dont know.

*Hint : * Its not based on some notions that are mis-construed as morals.


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## Fact_ur_mine

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *Omer says Pak has role to resolve Kashmir issue​*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JAMMU, (SANA): Chief Minister of Indian Held Kashmir Omar Abdullah reiterated that Pakistan has a very important role in the solution of Jammu and Kashmir and if it does so it would be a great achievement for both the nations.
> 
> Pakistan has an important role to play in resolving the Kashmir issue. *But*, it *should* play its role in *right* perspective and if Pakistan does this, it would be a big achievement for both the nations, Omar told reporters on the sidelines of a function in Jammu, adding that he saw a role for Pakistan in Kashmir.
> 
> He, however, suggested that the neighboring country should play its role in right perspective.
> 
> Omar said; When our interlocutors talk about role of Pakistan, media gets worried that why they discussed Pakistan, but when Obama makes a reference to it, you say he does the right thing. This dual policy is wrong, he remarked.
> 
> Omer says Pak has role to resolve Kashmir issue




Just three words gave the real message.
But here on PDF someone is allowed to digest the way he like.

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## UnitedPak

Gounder said:


> Lol demonstrations against Iraq war were held in every city in India back in 2004.But did it change anything nor did it stop India from signing the nuke deals with US.
> 
> You sadly dont know how the world works today or you pretend that you dont know.
> 
> *Hint : * Its not based on some notions that are mis-construed as morals.



Now you are just cherry picking. You felt the need to claim that nobody cares about Kashmiris and that "Islamophobia" among some westerners will help your cause.
The fact of the matter is that Kashmiris have world wide support while Indian occupation policy has no international support. I dont feel the need to explain why world wide support is a good thing.


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## Ammyy

Fact_ur_mine said:


> Just three words gave the real message.
> But here on PDF someone is allowed to digest the way he like.




Here on PDF he is called as Indian Puppet (Check old threads)
so how this puppets talk so Important now ?????


----------



## Fact_ur_mine

UnitedPak said:


> Now you are just cherry picking. You felt the need to claim that nobody cares about Kashmiris and that "Islamophobia" among some westerners will help your cause.
> The fact of the matter is that *Kashmiris have world wide support* while Indian occupation policy has no international support. I dont feel the need to explain why world wide support is a good thing.



Common on sir, its not comedy circus
any source for your claim of world wide Support.


----------



## Fact_ur_mine

DRDO said:


> Here on PDF he is called as Indian Puppet (Check old threads)
> so how this puppets talk so Important now ?????



It suites digestion now, it makes easy to poop


----------



## Bhairava

UnitedPak said:


> Now you are just cherry picking. You felt the need to claim that nobody cares about Kashmiris and that "Islamophobia" among some westerners will help your cause.
> The fact of the matter is that Kashmiris have world wide support while Indian occupation policy has no international support. I dont feel the need to explain why world wide support is a good thing.



Cherry picking....Me ?? 

it is you who is cherry picking seeing some isolated "black day" observations in some Mulsim countries and taking that as wide-spread international support for kashmir.

*How many Heads of state visiting India nowadays dare say the K-Word. ?? Think about it.*

Also for arguments sake,lets assume they have a world wide international support....Then Best of Luck to the world for "liberating" them.


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## Pagla Dashu

UnitedPak said:


> The role is to enforce the rights and promises made to the Kashmiri people and help them decide their own future.


For a country which doesn't even give the Kashmiri's their right to freely canvas and propagate anything in P0K, that the GoP thinks is "_prejudicial or detrimental to, the ideology of the States accession to Pakistan_." [section 7(2) of Interim Constitution of Azad Kashmir] these are hollow words.


> The aspirations of a brutal occupying force are never going to be considered by any country. *There is nothing unreasonable or unrealistic about this and India will have to come to terms with this sooner or later.*


May be it is Pakistan and Pakistanis who will have to come to terms to the fact that no country considers India is 'occupying' Kashmir and that they are more than willing to let it be settled in a manner which India has been advocating since mid '50s, i.e. LoC be converted into IB.


----------



## Awesome

Don't ignore our policy. There is no justification to use these terms for either of them.


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## Pagla Dashu

UnitedPak said:


> Considered a disputed region by the whole world. Please dont waste time arguing against this.
> 
> Disputed region. Period.


So. What difference does it make. The 'world' is not in possession of Kashmir. Is it now? 

One more thing. Can you show us which UN document (any document would do) rejects India's sovereignty over Kashmir.



> OIC recently made a statement supporting Kashmiris...


An organisation where Pakistan is the big brother made a statement supporting Kashmir and that means what, exactly?


> ...and Kashmir black day was observed in plenty of Muslim countries including Saudi.


By expat Kashmiris and Pakistanis. Ho hum.



> While, no country supports Indian occupation and treatment of Kashmiris.


And you for evidence, what?


----------



## SpArK

*Pak must stop training, funding militants for Jammu and Kashmir 'jihad': Editorial​*
Pakistan must abandon its active involvement in the training and funding of militants in Jammu and Kashmir for cordial relations with India, an editorial in a leading Pakistan newspaper has said.

*The editorial in the Daily Times comes after a BBC report revealed that Pakistani intelligence agencies are "fully supporting and financing" terrorist groups in Jammu and Kashmir, and that the Pakistan government "is completely aware" about the involvement.*

*"We must abandon this militant adventurism we have embarked upon on many fronts and work hard on the process of dialogue leading to regional peace,"* the editorial said.

The editorial further said that the intelligence establishment has to learn to prioritize, and put the country first.

"Pakistan is in a state of increasing state failure. No institution seems salvageable and we are having trouble managing what little resources we have. To stake everything on a claim on Kashmir when we are hard put to it to manage our domestic affairs is increasingly too high risk to be continued with equanimity," the editorial said.

*"India is progressing globally at breakneck speed and could eventually trigger an internal collapse in this country without firing a single shot, a la the Soviet Union at the end of the Cold War," it added.*

Earlier, in the BBC report, Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) leader Zahid Habib Sheikh had revealed Pakistan's Kashmir strategy.

*Sheikh had said that Pakistan was supporting militancy in Jammu and Kashmir not for the sake of Kashmiris, but to keep India engaged in conflict, and to use the militants as a bargaining chip in negotiations.
*

*"Pakistan has also turned what should be a nationalist cause, about human rights abuses by India, into a religious cause," Sheikh had said. 
*
Sheikh's candid confession clearly indicates that Pakistani authorities are directly supporting militancy in the Kashmir region, something which the country vehemently denies.

*The paper also quoted a 25-year-old engineering student-turned-militant as saying, "While I was at university, I started going to sermons given by preachers and, thank God, I joined a jihadi group. I went to a training camp with hundreds of others for three months. Now I'm ready to do whatever they ask me, to win all of Kashmir for Pakistan."*

*His mother told that she had thought that her son was going for Quranic teaching, but was horrified to find that he had, in fact, had militant training.*

*"He is a different person since he went to the training camp; the way he talks and dresses. They have brainwashed him," revealed the man's brother.*

*"If Pakistan wants to fight India, why doesn't it do it through its army, why does it have to use boys like my brother?" he added. *

*Pakistan's Foreign Affairs Ministry had however termed the report as baseless and malicious.* (ANI)



*Source*: 

Pak must stop training, funding militants for Jammu and Kashmir 'jihad': Editorial

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## DV RULES

BENNY said:


> *Pak must stop training, funding militants for Jammu and Kashmir 'jihad': Editorial​*
> Pakistan must abandon its active involvement in the training and funding of militants in Jammu and Kashmir for cordial relations with India, an editorial in a leading Pakistan newspaper has said.
> 
> *The editorial in the Daily Times comes after a BBC report revealed that Pakistani intelligence agencies are "fully supporting and financing" terrorist groups in Jammu and Kashmir, and that the Pakistan government "is completely aware" about the involvement.*
> 
> *"We must abandon this militant adventurism we have embarked upon on many fronts and work hard on the process of dialogue leading to regional peace,"* the editorial said.
> 
> The editorial further said that the intelligence establishment has to learn to prioritize, and put the country first.
> 
> "Pakistan is in a state of increasing state failure. No institution seems salvageable and we are having trouble managing what little resources we have. To stake everything on a claim on Kashmir when we are hard put to it to manage our domestic affairs is increasingly too high risk to be continued with equanimity," the editorial said.
> 
> *"India is progressing globally at breakneck speed and could eventually trigger an internal collapse in this country without firing a single shot, a la the Soviet Union at the end of the Cold War," it added.*
> 
> Earlier, in the BBC report, Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) leader Zahid Habib Sheikh had revealed Pakistan's Kashmir strategy.
> 
> *Sheikh had said that Pakistan was supporting militancy in Jammu and Kashmir not for the sake of Kashmiris, but to keep India engaged in conflict, and to use the militants as a bargaining chip in negotiations.
> *
> 
> *"Pakistan has also turned what should be a nationalist cause, about human rights abuses by India, into a religious cause," Sheikh had said.
> *
> Sheikh's candid confession clearly indicates that Pakistani authorities are directly supporting militancy in the Kashmir region, something which the country vehemently denies.
> 
> *The paper also quoted a 25-year-old engineering student-turned-militant as saying, "While I was at university, I started going to sermons given by preachers and, thank God, I joined a jihadi group. I went to a training camp with hundreds of others for three months. Now I'm ready to do whatever they ask me, to win all of Kashmir for Pakistan."*
> 
> *His mother told that she had thought that her son was going for Quranic teaching, but was horrified to find that he had, in fact, had militant training.*
> 
> *"He is a different person since he went to the training camp; the way he talks and dresses. They have brainwashed him," revealed the man's brother.*
> 
> *"If Pakistan wants to fight India, why doesn't it do it through its army, why does it have to use boys like my brother?" he added. *
> 
> *Pakistan's Foreign Affairs Ministry had however termed the report as baseless and malicious.* (ANI)
> 
> 
> 
> *Source*:
> 
> Pak must stop training, funding militants for Jammu and Kashmir 'jihad': Editorial



This all based on unrealistic facts

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## DV RULES

BENNY said:


> *Pak must stop training, funding militants for Jammu and Kashmir 'jihad': Editorial​*
> Pakistan must abandon its active involvement in the training and funding of militants in Jammu and Kashmir for cordial relations with India, an editorial in a leading Pakistan newspaper has said.
> 
> *The editorial in the Daily Times comes after a BBC report revealed that Pakistani intelligence agencies are "fully supporting and financing" terrorist groups in Jammu and Kashmir, and that the Pakistan government "is completely aware" about the involvement.*
> 
> *"We must abandon this militant adventurism we have embarked upon on many fronts and work hard on the process of dialogue leading to regional peace,"* the editorial said.
> 
> The editorial further said that the intelligence establishment has to learn to prioritize, and put the country first.
> 
> "Pakistan is in a state of increasing state failure. No institution seems salvageable and we are having trouble managing what little resources we have. To stake everything on a claim on Kashmir when we are hard put to it to manage our domestic affairs is increasingly too high risk to be continued with equanimity," the editorial said.
> 
> *"India is progressing globally at breakneck speed and could eventually trigger an internal collapse in this country without firing a single shot, a la the Soviet Union at the end of the Cold War," it added.*
> 
> Earlier, in the BBC report, Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) leader Zahid Habib Sheikh had revealed Pakistan's Kashmir strategy.
> 
> *Sheikh had said that Pakistan was supporting militancy in Jammu and Kashmir not for the sake of Kashmiris, but to keep India engaged in conflict, and to use the militants as a bargaining chip in negotiations.
> *
> 
> *"Pakistan has also turned what should be a nationalist cause, about human rights abuses by India, into a religious cause," Sheikh had said.
> *
> Sheikh's candid confession clearly indicates that Pakistani authorities are directly supporting militancy in the Kashmir region, something which the country vehemently denies.
> 
> *The paper also quoted a 25-year-old engineering student-turned-militant as saying, "While I was at university, I started going to sermons given by preachers and, thank God, I joined a jihadi group. I went to a training camp with hundreds of others for three months. Now I'm ready to do whatever they ask me, to win all of Kashmir for Pakistan."*
> 
> *His mother told that she had thought that her son was going for Quranic teaching, but was horrified to find that he had, in fact, had militant training.*
> 
> *"He is a different person since he went to the training camp; the way he talks and dresses. They have brainwashed him," revealed the man's brother.*
> 
> *"If Pakistan wants to fight India, why doesn't it do it through its army, why does it have to use boys like my brother?" he added. *
> 
> *Pakistan's Foreign Affairs Ministry had however termed the report as baseless and malicious.* (ANI)
> 
> 
> 
> *Source*:
> 
> Pak must stop training, funding militants for Jammu and Kashmir 'jihad': Editorial





*Kashmir is our essential part and we will take it at every cost *

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## jayron

This is a new low to Pakistan's image. The Pakistani public can deny all they want but the truth is the country has been seen as a menace to the world and such reports justify it. I hope the public come to term with the reality and show the world that they are not with the government on this. Otherwise Pakistan may face further international isolation.


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## Swift

SECOND EDITORIAL: Abandoning project jihad

According to a report by the BBC, the Pakistani state is allegedly still involved in the training and funding of militants in Kashmir. Not that this allegation is new, but it has managed to stir up some vehement denials by the government. The foreign ministry terms the report &#8220;baseless&#8221; and &#8220;malicious&#8221;. The report claims that the radicalisation of militants to fight in Kashmir and the arms and money being funnelled to them for their Kashmir jihad are being supplied by the country&#8217;s Inter Services Intelligence (ISI). Some Kashmiri fighters claim this ISI intervention has had the effect over the years of changing this largest regional nationalist cause into a religious one. Others claim the ISI is saving these militants for a rainy day so that they may be used as bargaining chips in any negotiations with India while keeping India tied up in conflict.

To gain strategic depth in Afghanistan, the Pakistani establishment has been nurturing the Afghan faction of the Taliban militants, much like this report suggests it has been doing for the Kashmiri militants. Pakistan has been saving the Afghan Taliban as a trump card for a centre-stage seat in Afghanistan after the US/Nato troops withdrawal. Such allegations are hardly a secret by now for the country, the region and the world at large. Therefore, whilst the BBC report is old news, it has ignited some fresh thought and recommendations on the topic.

*The intelligence establishment has to learn to prioritise and put the country first. Enough of dual policies, war games and the sponsoring of militants which, although the government is denying, it seems at the very least to be tolerating. The Pakistani militants we were using for Afghanistan have turned on the state and engulfed it in the flames of terrorism. This report, if true, confirms that we have not learnt from past mistakes and could suffer similar consequences if and when these insurgents decide to turn on Pakistan as well.*

Pakistan is in a state of increasing state failure. No institution seems salvageable and we are having trouble managing what little resources we have. *To stake everything on a claim on Kashmir when we are hard put to it to manage our domestic affairs is increasingly too high risk to be continued with equanimity. India is progressing globally at breakneck speed and could eventually trigger an internal collapse in this country without firing a single shot, a la the Soviet Union at the end of the Cold War. We must abandon this militant adventurism we have embarked upon on many fronts and work hard on the process of dialogue leading to regional peace.* *

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## trident2010

*Way to live !!*


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## SMC

Cool story bro. I am going to send it to bollywood directors.

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## SpArK

SMC said:


> Cool story bro. I am going to send it to bollywood directors.



Here is the site for the addresses.. 

Bollywood2000.com - Bollywood Stars Addresses and Phone #, Actors , Actresses

But dont complain of copyrights as the article's source is not Indian.

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## karan.1970

DV RULES said:


> *Kashmir is our essential part and we will take it at every cost *



Well, the down payment itself is seeming to be too expensive to handle for Pakistan. Dont know how it will handle installments. And you know what, you will still not get it

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## SMC

BENNY said:


> Here is the site for the addresses..
> 
> Bollywood2000.com - Bollywood Stars Addresses and Phone #, Actors , Actresses
> 
> But dont complain of copyrights as the article's source is not Indian.



Well ok. But it's still a good script for a bollywood movie. Man do these conspiracy theories ever end, yet they have the nerve to call others conspiracy theorists.

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## SpArK

SMC said:


> Well ok. But it's still a good script for a bollywood movie. Man do these conspiracy theories ever end, yet they have the nerve to call others conspiracy theorists.



yes dude, just keep waiting for its release or watch it over internet, whatever that makes u happy.

The later part .. well ask the script writers on ur side..


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## trident2010

SMC said:


> Cool story bro. I am going to send it to bollywood directors.




Or you can send to to directors in your country, those people may get a chance to make some money. I promise, to try and watch this pakistani movie without turning the tv off within first 5 mins .. .


----------



## SMC

BENNY said:


> The later part .. well ask the script writers on ur side..



I am talking about the place where nearly all the fans of these conspiracy theory come from, not the authors of the conspiracy theories, who may or may not also came from the same place.


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## SpArK

SMC said:


> I am talking about the place where nearly all the fans of these conspiracy theory come from, not the authors of the conspiracy theories, who may or may not also came from the same place.



Talk about that by opening another thread.. the movies.. script .. etc are unrelated in here. 

Infact it seems 'conspiracy " is the favorite word of urs from English..


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## Spring Onion

SMC said:


> Well ok. But it's still a good script for a bollywood movie. Man do these conspiracy theories ever end, yet they have the nerve to call others conspiracy theorists.



 the script was posted by a bhartiya few days back from an *Indian site* quoting BBC but the BBC link never got opened.


I guess masala kam tha thread close ho gaya tha

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## Spring Onion

trident2010 said:


> *Way to live !!*



P damn monkeys

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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

BENNY said:


> *Pak must stop training, funding militants for Jammu and Kashmir 'jihad': Editorial​*
> Pakistan must abandon its active involvement in the training and funding of militants in Jammu and Kashmir for cordial relations with India, an editorial in a leading Pakistan newspaper has said.
> 
> *The editorial in the Daily Times comes after a BBC report revealed that Pakistani intelligence agencies are "fully supporting and financing" terrorist groups in Jammu and Kashmir, and that the Pakistan government "is completely aware" about the involvement.*
> 
> *"We must abandon this militant adventurism we have embarked upon on many fronts and work hard on the process of dialogue leading to regional peace,"* the editorial said.
> 
> The editorial further said that the intelligence establishment has to learn to prioritize, and put the country first.
> 
> "Pakistan is in a state of increasing state failure. No institution seems salvageable and we are having trouble managing what little resources we have. To stake everything on a claim on Kashmir when we are hard put to it to manage our domestic affairs is increasingly too high risk to be continued with equanimity," the editorial said.
> 
> *"India is progressing globally at breakneck speed and could eventually trigger an internal collapse in this country without firing a single shot, a la the Soviet Union at the end of the Cold War," it added.*
> 
> Earlier, in the BBC report, Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) leader Zahid Habib Sheikh had revealed Pakistan's Kashmir strategy.
> 
> *Sheikh had said that Pakistan was supporting militancy in Jammu and Kashmir not for the sake of Kashmiris, but to keep India engaged in conflict, and to use the militants as a bargaining chip in negotiations.
> *
> 
> *"Pakistan has also turned what should be a nationalist cause, about human rights abuses by India, into a religious cause," Sheikh had said.
> *
> Sheikh's candid confession clearly indicates that Pakistani authorities are directly supporting militancy in the Kashmir region, something which the country vehemently denies.
> 
> *The paper also quoted a 25-year-old engineering student-turned-militant as saying, "While I was at university, I started going to sermons given by preachers and, thank God, I joined a jihadi group. I went to a training camp with hundreds of others for three months. Now I'm ready to do whatever they ask me, to win all of Kashmir for Pakistan."*
> 
> *His mother told that she had thought that her son was going for Quranic teaching, but was horrified to find that he had, in fact, had militant training.*
> 
> *"He is a different person since he went to the training camp; the way he talks and dresses. They have brainwashed him," revealed the man's brother.*
> 
> *"If Pakistan wants to fight India, why doesn't it do it through its army, why does it have to use boys like my brother?" he added. *
> 
> *Pakistan's Foreign Affairs Ministry had however termed the report as baseless and malicious.* (ANI)
> 
> 
> 
> *Source*:
> 
> Pak must stop training, funding militants for Jammu and Kashmir 'jihad': Editorial




As far as this article is concerned, because media in Pakistan is free so everyone has the right to express his/her ideas. 

As far as the militancy in Kashmir is concerned, whether you call them terrorists or Jihadis. . . . .  , we will support them and we dont need india's approval for this. . .


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## Gandhi G in da house

nothing can change their minds .

Just zero introspection . Let it be , we are not the ones who are losing more here.


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## SMC

BENNY said:


> Talk about that by opening another thread.. the movies.. script .. etc are unrelated in here.
> 
> Infact it seems 'conspiracy " is the favorite word of urs from English..



Maybe the movie part is irrelevant, but definitely not the conspiracy theory part.


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> Well, the down payment itself is seeming to be too expensive to handle for Pakistan. Dont know how it will handle installments. And you know what, you will still not get it



Oh that's why India has faced so many secessionist movements because it used to support such movements in other countries. We got it. So many died in such movements because of GOI's policy of supporting secessionists movements. 

Any ways the guys who are related with IOK movement in any form are always ridiculed by TTP terrorists. Interesting. Wonder why TTP thugs hate those who support freedom movement in IOK.

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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

nick_indian said:


> nothing can change their minds .
> 
> Just zero introspection . Let it be , *we are not the ones who are losing more here.*



I dont know about the losing or winning side, but I can surely say that if these militant operations wasnt pinching and creating a problem for india, you wouldnt discuss this. . .

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## nForce

It is quite alright for Musharraf to do all these stunts.He wants to come back and come back with a bang.So he is saying what many people in Pakistan wants to hear.

These statements kind of change the focus from immediate local issues and give people an avenue to vent their anger.Its nothing new.Its politics.....


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## Bhairava

SMC said:


> Cool story bro. I am going to send it to bollywood directors.





SMC said:


> Well ok. But it's still a good script for a bollywood movie. Man do these conspiracy theories ever end, yet they have the nerve to call others conspiracy theorists.





BENNY said:


> yes dude, just keep waiting for its release or watch it over internet, whatever that makes u happy.
> 
> The later part .. well ask the script writers on ur side..



Once the film becomes a hit then the same people will post it in this thread and this.

Amazing , I must say.

BTW who cares if they wake up to the reality or not...Everyday Bombs go up n different places in Pakistan like Alarm clocks and still these ppl think there are no terror camps and every evidence is a conspiracy against the pure-as-milk Pakistan.May God help you all.


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## SpArK

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> I dont know about the losing or winning side, but I can surely say that if these militant operations wasnt pinching and creating a problem for india, you wouldnt discuss this. . .



Militancy.... secessional movements .. we have been seeing it all from many decades.. but we moved along ...without even halting over it for a minute.. we grew from regional power into the global scenario and our PM is busy meeting the guys called the elite G-20.. a rare feat for a pre colonised country.


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## Peacefulll

Areesh said:


> Any ways the guys who are related with IOK movement in any form are always ridiculed by TTP terrorists. Interesting. Wonder why TTP thugs hate those who support freedom movement in IOK.



This is the first time I am hearing any such thing. From where did you get this gem of an information? Or is it something you made up on the spur of the moment?

Because I very clearly remember the TTP giving a statement that if India attacks Pakistan after 26/11, they would stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the Pakistani Army.

I believe this desperate attempt to link TTP to India is just a way to put your head in the sand, as usual.

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## jayron

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> I dont know about the losing or winning side, but I can surely say that if these militant operations wasnt pinching and creating a problem for india, you wouldnt discuss this. . .



Yes we had one Mumbai. But you are having a Mumbai everyday . It has become so commonplace , you guys have started making jokes about it. Pathetic! Just want to know if there is any honesty and humanity left there.


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## Gandhi G in da house

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> I dont know about the losing or winning side, but I can surely say that if these militant operations wasnt pinching and creating a problem for india, you wouldnt discuss this. . .



 

nope , you missed my point , the point was that Pakistan is losing more than India in this proxy war .

but if you like many Pakistanies have this attitude of harming India at *ANY COST* then good luck to you .


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## Areesh

Peacefulll said:


> This is the first time I am hearing any such thing. From where did you get this gem of an information? Or is it something you made up on the spur of the moment?
> 
> Because I very clearly remember the TTP giving a statement that if India attacks Pakistan after 26/11, they would stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the Pakistani Army.
> 
> I believe this desperate attempt to link TTP to India is just a way to put your head in the sand, as usual.



Well than you have to read more about TTP. May be it will help you increase your knowledge about TTP. Your post would be more worthy to be thanked after such research.


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## TOPGUN

Another bs thread another bs story and just more bs comments based on nonfacts filled with hatered for Pakistan and its people jerks.

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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

jayron said:


> Yes we had one Mumbai. But you are having a Mumbai everyday . It has become so commonplace , you guys have started making jokes about it. Pathetic! Just want to know if there is any *honesty and humanity left there.*



Words like HONESTY & HUMANITY dont suite you people. Where was your HUMANITY when your soldiers were killing Kashmiris??

Where was your HONESTY when both india and Pakistan decided to move back there forces, but India violated that too. .


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## Areesh

jayron said:


> Yes we had one Mumbai. But you are having a Mumbai everyday . It has become so commonplace , you guys have started making jokes about it. Pathetic! Just want to know if there is any honesty and humanity left there.



By the way talking about Mumbai we were having regular Mumbai attacks last year. The count has decreased considerably this year. You need to refer to some statistics for this. Better not exaggerate things for just making the posts more thanks worthy.


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## LadyGaga

Remember one thing.When you are supporting people who kill others,you are supporting a mindset which will never lead to any good.After you are done being happy about being a nuisance to India,please spare a thought for the bombs going off in your own country and maybe somewhere inside you will hear a voice which tells you,yes this is the same mindset that i support,which kills others.



SANABIL MIRZA said:


> As far as this article is concerned, because media in Pakistan is free so everyone has the right to express his/her ideas.
> 
> As far as the militancy in Kashmir is concerned, whether you call them terrorists or Jihadis. . . . .  , we will support them and we dont need india's approval for this. . .

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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

nick_indian said:


> nope , you missed my point , the point was that Pakistan is losing more than India in this proxy war .
> 
> but if you like many Pakistanies have this attitude of harming India at *ANY COST* then good luck to you .




No you missed my point. 
I said if Pakistan was losing then it would be Pakistan who would be complaining. But because india is complaining about this militants attack so that means india is losing and we are achieving as much success in Kashmir as we desire, doesnt matter it is small or big. .


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## Peacefulll

Areesh said:


> Well than you have to read more about TTP. May be it will help you increase your knowledge about TTP. Your post would be more worthy to be thanked after such research.



No, *YOU* need to provide a link to back up your ridiculous assertion. This is a typical tactic by Pakistanis here - talk some nonsense about 'evil Bhartis', 'RAW conspiracy', talk of some vague 'he said this' type of thing, and no substance at all.

I can give you hundred links to prove my assertion about the TTP being willing to fight against India, now you ought to provide links, or accept that you were either making up stuff, or basing it on unreliable hearsay.


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

LadyGaga said:


> Remember one thing.When you are supporting people who kill others,you are supporting a mindset which will never lead to any good.After you are done being happy about being a nuisance to India,please spare a thought for the bombs going off in your own country and maybe somewhere inside you will hear a voice which tells you,yes this is the same mindset that i support,which kills others.



why do you forget this and follow the same mindset when indian army kills people in Kashmir and you support them.. .


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## Areesh

Peacefulll said:


> No, *YOU* need to provide a link to back up your ridiculous assertion. This is a typical tactic by Pakistanis here - talk some nonsense about 'evil Bhartis', 'RAW conspiracy', talk of some vague 'he said this' type of thing, and no substance at all.



 Hafiz Saeed faces life threat from Taliban: PHD



> *I can give you hundred links to prove my assertion about the TTP being willing to fight against India*, now you ought to provide links, or accept that you were either making up stuff, or basing it on unreliable hearsay.



Did they fight? No. In fact they are fighting with Pakistan so get over it buddy you contradict ground facts.


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## LadyGaga

Learn to distinguish between terrorists and army.I think there is a libel policy made by mods in this respect. 


SANABIL MIRZA said:


> why do you forget this and follow the same mindset when indian army kills people in Kashmir and you support them.. .


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## SpArK

Lets check who are these taliban anyway,,

Hakimullah Mehsud &#8211; second amir of TTP and former commander in the Khyber, Kurram, and Orakzai agencies &#8211; South Waziristan 
Hafiz Gul Bahadur &#8211; North Waziristan
Maulavi Nazir &#8211; South Waziristan (western half)
Qari Hussain &#8211; Lieutenant to Baitullah Mehsud
Omar Khalid &#8211; Mohmand Agency
Waliur Rehman Mehsud &#8211; South Waziristan
Faqir Mohammed &#8211; Bajaur

Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So basically you guys are saying that they are recruited By India and they get their paychecks through banks every month end???


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## jha

Benny Stikes again..
Lady Gaga- Most sensible post in the thread..

BTW has anyone noticed the change in mindset..?
From " Breakfast in Amritsar, Lunch in Agra and Dinner in Delhi " to " Will keep supporting so called "Kashmiri movement" till death..

Badalte zamaney ki badalti haqeeqat..

Cheers to Non-violence..

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## Areesh

BENNY said:


> Lets check who are these taliban anyway,,
> 
> Hakimullah Mehsud  second amir of TTP and former commander in the Khyber, Kurram, and Orakzai agencies  South Waziristan
> Hafiz Gul Bahadur  North Waziristan
> Maulavi Nazir  South Waziristan (western half)
> Qari Hussain  Lieutenant to Baitullah Mehsud
> Omar Khalid  Mohmand Agency
> Waliur Rehman Mehsud  South Waziristan
> Faqir Mohammed  Bajaur
> 
> Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> So basically they are recruited By India and they get their paychecks through banks every month end???



Exactly... Love you benny you are too genius.

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## Areesh

jha said:


> Badalte jamane ki badalt haqeeqat..



It's zamanai. Use z please.


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## karan.1970

jha said:


> Benny Stikes again..
> Lady Gaga- Most sensible post in the thread..
> 
> BTW has anyone noticed the change in mindset..?
> From " Breakfast in Amritsar, Lunch in Agra and Dinner in Delhi " to " *Will keep supporting so called "Kashmiri movement" till death..*
> 
> Badalte jamane ki badalt haqeeqat..
> 
> Cheers to Non-violence..



Death of the so called movement or the supporters ?

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## karan.1970

BENNY said:


> Lets check who are these taliban anyway,,
> 
> Hakimullah Mehsud  second amir of TTP and former commander in the Khyber, Kurram, and Orakzai agencies  South Waziristan
> Hafiz Gul Bahadur  North Waziristan
> Maulavi Nazir  South Waziristan (western half)
> Qari Hussain  Lieutenant to Baitullah Mehsud
> Omar Khalid  Mohmand Agency
> Waliur Rehman Mehsud  South Waziristan
> Faqir Mohammed  Bajaur
> 
> Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> So basically they are recruited By India and they get their paychecks through banks every month end???



Paychecks drawn on Banks near the Indian consulates in Afghanistan ?


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## Gandhi G in da house

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> No you missed my point.
> I said if Pakistan was losing then it would be Pakistan who would be complaining. But because india is complaining about this militants attack so that means india is losing and we are achieving as much success in Kashmir as we desire, doesnt matter it is small or big. .



Dude when i said pakistan is losing more than India , I didnt mean India is winning . 

I am sorry , i dont want to sound rude but you are having some basic comprehension problem .

And about Pakistanis not complaining , well its because more than your own welfare you care for bleeding India and because you guys are pretty much used to having these nutcases running around and killing innocents in your country , but we are not .

*SO WE COMPLAIN AND YOU DONT .*

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## jha

Areesh said:


> It's zamanai. Use z please.



No thats not ZAMANAI that ZAMANEY..BTW thanks for reminder ..corrected..


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## jayron

Areesh said:


> By the way talking about Mumbai we were having regular Mumbai attacks last year. The count has decreased considerably this year. You need to refer to some statistics for this. Better not exaggerate things for just making the posts more thanks worthy.



Statistics for what? The bomb blasts? wake up from your slumber and read the news.. You seriously think I am exaggerating? I think today's blast in Karachi is the third this week if I am not wrong.


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## SpArK

Bomb blasts in Pakistan 2010

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## jayron

^^^ My oh My. Its more than one a day. Thanks for the link Benny.


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## Areesh

BENNY said:


> Bomb blasts in Pakistan 2010



I thought we were discussing TTP attacks I guess. Never knew when BLA, BRA, Lashkar E Baluchistan, Rail track attacks in Sindh came in between. Come on benny you did really bad their.


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## Areesh

jayron said:


> ^^^ My oh My. Its more than one a day. Thanks for the link Benny.



Would share the number of *major* attacks in big cities on government and security infrasrtucture with you in this year and the last year. The numbers are considerably different. 

Looks like I have to spoon feed for this too.


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## Beacon

BENNY said:


> Bomb blasts in Pakistan 2010



It is like bombs are popping up like a pop corn machine in pakistan.... it is quite sad for the people who are living by these incidents..


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## The Clarifier

-----------------------


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## mjnaushad

BENNY said:


> Bomb blasts in Pakistan 2010


This also include IEDs, Grenade blasts.


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## WHF

DV RULES said:


> *Kashmir is our essential part and we will take it at every cost *



U cannot pay for it even if ur entire country goes on sale!! anyways *BEST OF LUCK*

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## SMC

Peacefulll said:


> No, *YOU* need to provide a link to back up your ridiculous assertion. This is a typical tactic by Pakistanis here - talk some nonsense about 'evil Bhartis', 'RAW conspiracy', talk of some vague 'he said this' type of thing, and no substance at all.
> 
> I can give you hundred links to prove my assertion about the TTP being willing to fight against India, now you ought to provide links, or accept that you were either making up stuff, or basing it on unreliable hearsay.



In the context of this thread, it is bharatis who have to provide links that Pakistan is supporting extremists.


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## SMC

BENNY said:


> Bomb blasts in Pakistan 2010



I can see a lot of blasts in which no one was killed or injured. WTF?

Most of these include insignificant blasts, 1 person injured, 2 people injured, etc. Overall, the numbers have significantly come down in last 8 months or so, and that's obviously observable. Yeah, it's still not pretty, but it's better than before.


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## SMC

jayron said:


> Statistics for what? The bomb blasts? wake up from your slumber and read the news.. You seriously think I am exaggerating? I think today's blast in Karachi is the third this week if I am not wrong.




The way you termed it - i.e. Mumbai attacks, i.e. major terrorist attacks in major cities with lots of people getting killed - are not happening as often as you'd like to believe. And given your reaction, you probably feel bad that they're not happening as often as you'd like.


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## karan.1970

SMC said:


> In the context of this thread, it is bharatis who have to provide links that Pakistan is supporting extremists.



Not really.. The source of the article is Pakistani. So ask them to provide links and proofs..


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## SMC

Ok, well, then they have to provide links and evidence.

Though my point is that bharatis are not really asking for any evidence for these assertions. Which is obviously quite hypocritical (though not the first time, again) given their past record on these sorts of things.


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## karan.1970

SMC said:


> I can see a lot of blasts in which no one was killed or injured. WTF?
> 
> Most of these include insignificant blasts, 1 person injured, 2 people injured, etc. *Overall, the numbers have significantly come down in last 8 months or so, and that's obviously observable*. Yeah, it's still not pretty, but it's better than before.



Really??

Month # Killed Injured
Jan	42	167	217
Feb	32	134	486
Mar	40	133	392
Apr	41	174	363
May	24	129	161
Jun	20	11	44
Jul	50	196	438
Aug	39	60	144
Sep	43	192	618
Oct	39	53	139
Nov	20	103	102
Total	390	1352	3104

Seems to be a pretty stable trend, and July has been the worst. Except November where 1st week itself has higher casualties than Oct..


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## karan.1970

SMC said:


> Ok, well, then they have to provide links and evidence.
> 
> Though my point is that bharatis are not really asking for any evidence for these assertions. Which is obviously quite hypocritical (though not the first time, again) given their past record on these sorts of things.



I dont think Pakistanis were asking proofs in the threads about Arundhati Roy and Jawed Naqui's articles. Were they?


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## Abhishek_

some members were asking for proof about what BBC said. The following should help
BBC News - Fears of renewed militancy over Kashmir issue

@ Karan: You can't wake people who pretend to be asleep. Save the effort my dear friend


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## SMC

I think you need to read my post again. What I am saying is, it used to be worse before. By "observable", I mean the number of terrorist attacks that are in the news. It's much lower than previously. Now if you want to make the argument that it's still high, then yes sure, but it's much better than before.


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## SMC

karan.1970 said:


> I dont think Pakistanis were asking proofs in the threads about Arundhati Roy and Jawed Naqui's articles. Were they?



You're comparing apples with oranges. What the above two individuals are talking about are mostly public things that are well known. Not the case here.

OTOH, again, bharatis have shown some sort of a moral highground when it comes to believing in conspiracy theories and circulating the conspiracy theories. All the talk about Pakistanis being insane and all that and shifting blame and bharatis being logical and rational, etc.


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## SMC

Abhishek_ said:


> @ Karan: You can't wake people who pretend to be asleep. Save the effort my dear friend



You mean we're not accepting allegations which are not proven? Yeah. Well that's what you'd like to call sleeping, but it's obviously not what you're making it to be.


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## SMC

Abhishek_ said:


> some members were asking for proof about what BBC said. The following should help
> BBC News - Fears of renewed militancy over Kashmir issue



So the proof is some random guy who has the feeling that Pakistan is supporting the extremists?


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## Abhishek_

SMC said:


> You mean we're not accepting allegations which are not proven? Yeah. Well that's what you'd like to call sleeping, but it's obviously not what you're making it to be.



My comment was meant to implore him to stop trying to convince you (not all Pakistanis). 

On-topic: No one has the right to tell Pakistan what to do for their progress. It is purely Pakistani people's responsibility to chart their course. If that means continuing the struggle against India, then by all means go for it. You are a sovereign nation and have every right to decide what's good for you.


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## Omar1984

*US has endorsed Indian state terrorism in Occupied Kashmir ​*

Obamas visit to India and his complete surrender before Indian demands seem to have surprised many in Pakistan, especially the Foreign Office which seems to have been asleep while preparations for the visit were being made and many telling statements were already coming out of Washington. Now suddenly they have woken up and started mutterings in response to the Obama statement assuring India of US support in its bid for a permanent seat in the UN Security Council. Much is being made of the fact that the US has effectively endorsed Indian state terrorism in Occupied Kashmir and Indian contravention of UNSC resolutions  not really expected behaviour from a state seeking to enter the UNSCs select group of permanent members. That this makes a mockery of the UN is rather apparent, but the UN has become a bit of a bad joke on issues of peace and security  its primary function ever since the end of bipolarity and the US abuse of the UN for its own purposes  from the Iraq war under the notion of coalition of the willing to Afghanistan and the rubber stamping of the NATO coup over ISAF.

The status of the UN should have been apparent when the US pushed for a compliant Secretary General from South Korea and Ban Ki-moon has not disappointed the US, nor its strategic partner India, with his bizarre approach to the human rights abuses in Occupied Kashmir!

Of course, everyone is trying to explain how it is the Indian economy and its vast market that has pushed the US into the Hindutva lap, but that is only part of the picture. True the Indian market is vast and orders placed for US goods will help the presently-strapped US economy, especially in terms of saving jobs and so on  especially in the strategic arms and dual-use technology sectors, including the nuclear industry. In fact, India and the US have been signing vast arms deals since the 2000 Vision Document signed between Clinton and the Indians which formalised what was already an evolving strategic relationship. And within the present context, the US has already signed a huge jets deal with Saudi Arabia worth $60 billion so it is not as if India has been singled out solely in terms of trade and arms deals.

No. India is being given all these goodies because India has been singled out as a strategic partner for the US  so it is not trade and markets that have played the major role, but the strategic politico-military role that has led to the trade deals which, apart from the easing of export controls for dual-use technology transfers and the nuclear component, are not so unique. After all, China is also a major trading partner of the US and Saudi Arabia is a major weapons buyer, but they do not get the export control exceptions for sensitive technologies and other strategic privileges that are being conceded to India. So those Indian apologists, who are trying to tell Pakistanis that if we can straighten out our economy we will be able to get the US to give us similar trade deals, should know that the issue of concern for Pakistan is something totally different  or at least it should be.

This issue of concern is the way Pakistan is viewed by the US  both the government and the media. If one wants to really understand how poorly  in fact downright demeaning  the Americans think of Pakistan a quick read of the new Woodward book, Obamas Wars, will put the record straight. The hate and suspicion that lie in the minds of all the players in the US administration and establishment  players such as Bruce Reidel  comes out at every opportunity. The 9/11 trauma still haunts the US psyche and we are their easiest target for a variety of reasons  our commitment to Muslim causes and our nuclear capability being two factors. Our ISI is seen as duplicitous, while the CIA is innocently upfront and straight; General Kayani is labelled a liar in no uncertain terms and President Zardari is regarded at best as inept and totally out of it as far as any understanding of issues is concerned! The quotes from the latter also betray the total contempt in which our own leaders hold their people. Perhaps, the most telling statement is from Ambassador Haqqani on what he thinks Pakistan is all about.

Any Pakistani, who had even an iota of faith in Haqqani doing good by Pakistan, will be left in no doubt as to how Haqqani views his country and the people in it. Of course, for some his views were already crystal clear in his book, Pakistan: Between Mosque and Military.
However, it is our fault because despite clear signals from the Americans, our leaders continue to lay themselves prostrate before the US and its destructive demands. In return, all they get is more intrusive behaviour on the part of the US  be it through the Kerry-Lugar Act or the IMF. As of now, the US is going to have access in all our Ministries with their people placed there to ensure the aid being given is spent properly. In addition, vast amounts of money are being poured in to win over crucial segments of civil society like the media. Meanwhile, the hard payments that are owed to us like the Coalition Support Fund are still outstanding, while we have already incurred the costs. Perhaps the most stark reflection of the barely concealed hate and disgust with which Pakistans leaders and the nation are viewed by the US is the drone killings, the disrespect for the law within Pakistan by US citizens, and the cavalier manner in which NATO intrudes into Pakistani territory and kills its citizens at will. And why shouldnt the leaders and nation be viewed in this fashion by the US, when leaders acquiesce to these actions and our people are seemingly helpless in altering their leaders mindsets.

The real question for us is how much more abuse we are going to suffer at the hands of the Americans before we realise that we do not have common strategic goals; that the so-called Strategic Dialogue was merely a farce where nothing strategic was discussed amongst two strategic partners; and that the US is moving fast to make us a client state where eventually they will also control our nuclear assets.

However, we are not really as helpless as our leaders would have us believe. After all, the US presently needs us more than we need them and we should assert ourselves and seek a renegotiation of the terms of our cooperation with them, including in terms of access to Afghanistan. One drone brought down by the PAF, which has claimed it has the technical capability, will send the correct message to the US also. As for the economy, if our IMF surrogates were shown the door and more focus was put on collecting taxes from those who should be paying rather than on simply breaking the back of the masses by constantly increasing indirect taxation, and corruption was truly rooted out with the big fish being netted first, there could be an economic turnaround. But for that an honest and dedicated leadership is required and that is invisible.

Unfortunately, until we the nation can truly reject our traditional leaders, we will always be exposed to the murderous designs of the US. This is what lies at the heart of our problem with the US. That is why the US will continue to give nuclear aid and support the Indian bid for the UNSC, while raining down drone missiles and covering each dollar that may reluctantly have to come our way with criticism and abuse!


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## Omar1984

Kashmir belongs to Pakistan and we will do everything in our power to get it back.


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## Abhishek_

SMC said:


> So the proof is some random guy who has the feeling that Pakistan is supporting the extremists?



re-read my statement SMC. I only said some members were asking for BBC's original comments which were the basis of the article posted.


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## SMC

You didn't quite understand what I am saying. It doesn't matter if it's me or all Pakistanis. The point is, if anything, it's you who is sleeping since you're making conspiracy theories and then calling anyone who doesn't accept your story as _sleeping_.


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## UnitedPak

According to Indian sources there are* 500 active militants* in Kashmir

Human rights groups put the* Indian troops at 500 000 - 700 000*

*Since June, Indian army has killed 100+ innocent protesters*

Lets for a second ignore the numerous reports of fake encounters with militants and take the Indian army's word for the havoc the 500 alleged Pakistani militants create. Its not hard to conclude that the militants and LeT are not the main problem in Kashmir. Blaming the militancy and ignoring Indian army abuses is pure hypocrisy and cannot be taken seriously.


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## SMC

Abhishek_ said:


> re-read my statement SMC. I only said some members were asking for BBC's original comments which were the basis of the article posted.



Ok, well, in that case, that's not really evidence of any sort. Where is the original article from BBC btw? The one that we have here is from a website in Pakistan.


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## Abhishek_

Omar1984 said:


> Kashmir belongs to Pakistan and we will do everything in our power to get it back.



good luck and god speed omar


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## Abhishek_

SMC said:


> Ok, well, in that case, that's not really evidence of any sort. Where is the original article from BBC btw? The one that we have here is from a website in Pakistan.



I doubt you will change your stance even if I post the article. Lets agree to disagree. 
Pakistan is your nation and it's expected you support its policies and accept the consequences.
I support GOI's stance on Kashmir and the costs my nation bears for it.


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## Fact_ur_mine

Omar1984 said:


> Kashmir belongs to Pakistan and we will do everything in our power to get it back.



Since Independence, you have already done whatever is in your power


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## Peshwa

UnitedPak said:


> According to Indian sources there are* 500 active militants* in Kashmir
> 
> Human rights groups put the* Indian troops at 500 000 - 700 000*
> 
> *Since June, Indian army has killed 100+ innocent protesters*
> 
> Lets for a second ignore the numerous reports of fake encounters with militants and take the Indian army's word for the havoc the 500 alleged Pakistani militants create.* Its not hard to conclude that the militants and LeT are not the main problem in Kashmir. *Blaming the militancy and ignoring Indian army abuses is pure hypocrisy and cannot be taken seriously.



Duh!

As if this wasnt obvious that the presence of the army in Kashmir has a dual purpose..

a. To prevent repeated attempts by Pakistan to capture Kashmir militarily 
b. To prevent havoc caused by terrorists and to hunt them down.

If you're gonna use your line of reasoning, we have to throw it back at you by saying that the bogey of "Pakistan cant divert troops from its eastern border to fight terrorists because of the Indian threat" is nothing more than a sham since when was the last time India attacked Pakistan *in Kashmir*?
The last time we attacked you in '71 and that was in E.Pakistan...NOT Kashmir...though Pakistan has in '47, '65 and '99

So being the masters of assessing our own threat perception (just as Pakistanis claim to be), the presence of the Indian army in Kashmir is much more legitimate than the imaginary threat Pakistan has been playing up to prevent fighting Taliban in the WOT!

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## Peshwa

SMC said:


> You're comparing apples with oranges. What the above two individuals are talking about are *mostly public things that are well known. Not the case here.*
> 
> OTOH, again, bharatis have shown some sort of a moral highground when it comes to believing in conspiracy theories and circulating the conspiracy theories. All the talk about Pakistanis being insane and all that and shifting blame and bharatis being logical and rational, etc.



Oh now its public knowledge?

No no....we need proof of all the rapes.....murders....fake killings...

Can you please provide concrete evidences? 
Coz witness could be paid....general people can be mislead by propoganda and unless you have undeniable proof that these crimes were committed by our armed forces....then your proof is baseless...

Im sick of your double standards...expect to get what you throw at us!

I told you in another thread.....the kind of proof you keep asking about....is not accessible to you nor to an average Indian....
So either we can discuss based on reports we read....or we can play this game where we just end up wasting bandwidth!


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## SMC

The killings of Kashmiri civilians are in the open. Not something that needs to be proven. Or are you going to say that they didn't happen? Your sarcasm won't work here. You genuinely have no idea the difference between the two things here. Or for that matter how evidence and convictions work. Which is quite shocking, considering that you seem to be quite mature.


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## Peshwa

SMC said:


> The killings of Kashmiri civilians are in the open. Not something that needs to be proven. Or are you going to say that they didn't happen? Your sarcasm won't work here. You genuinely have no idea the difference between the two things here. Or for that matter how evidence and convictions work. Which is quite shocking, considering that you seem to be quite mature.



Which killings do you refer to? the recent deaths that were a result of the reactionary action by the police in the process of preventing vandalism and arson?

If you're talking about the deaths, rapes, and the mass graves that Pakistanis often quote?.....is there any proof that the Indian army was responsible?
Is there any documental evidence other than "blame by Kashmiris" that has been used to implicate the IA of this crime?

because as I mentioned....it will be hard for even Scotland Yard to pin these crimes....You can assume...but you wont be able to provide "concrete evidence"...Do you agree?

Seriously speaking, if Indians and Pakistanis truly want a solution to this problem, the acceptance of a problem needs to be the first step from both!
Harping on "concrete evidence" is only going to boil more blood cause we end up insulting each others intelligence.


----------



## SMC

I am precisely referring to killings of late. Well you can give explanations that you want, but Indian forces killed people knowing that they're innocent civilians.

As far as the other things you're talking about, yeah that's a harder case to make.


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## Abhishek_

SMC said:


> I am precisely referring to killings of late. Well you can give explanations that you want, but Indian forces killed people knowing that they're *innocent civilians*.
> 
> As far as the other things you're talking about, yeah that's a harder case to make.



stone-pelters and vandals is a more fitting description but that is of course off-topic


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## Peshwa

SMC said:


> I am precisely referring to killings of late. Well you can give explanations that you want, but Indian forces killed people knowing that they're innocent civilians.
> 
> As far as the other things you're talking about, yeah that's a harder case to make.



The way I look at it is....

Until the issue is resolved.....Law and order in Kashmir is the Indian responsibility...similar to Pakistani Kashmir being under Pak law?

So when people vandalize and burn public property at the cost of the average Kashmiri and get injured or killed in the process, that's unfortunate, but a a reaction to the violence....
I will blame our limited riot control experience that armed forces of the subontinent have, but cannot be considered an act of suppression by the system....
Do you allow people to burn and vandalize public property on your side? NO!
Anarchy will not be tolerated....simple! And we have been equally brutal on Indians outside of Kashmir as well...esp.wrt riots....so this cannot be termed a Kashmir specific thing...
Last but not the least, it was Kashmiri police (made up of ethnic Kashmiris) who were taking these actions....NOT the IA

So say if a violent protestor permanently injures or kills a Kashmiri policeman....doesnt a Kashmiri die? Arent the Kashmiri policeman innocent as well?

And lastly....how can you call stone throwing vandals "innocent"...men or women?


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## SMC

Not allowing people to vandalize or throw stones is one thing, killing them for those acts is another thing. Anyway, I think this discussion will drag on forever and TBH i don't have much interest in the Kashmir issue. I don't see the big deal in making the LoC an international border.

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## Peshwa

SMC said:


> Not allowing people to vandalize or throw stones is one thing, killing them for those acts is another thing. Anyway, I think this discussion will drag on forever and TBH i don't have much interest in the Kashmir issue. * I don't see the big deal in making the LoC an international border.*



Glad we see eye to eye!


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## sergente rehan

For an instant i thought maybe something serious is posted...but as always it turned out to be a usual BS post by some indian member!

maybe i should open another thread to respond to this crap? "India trying to hide it's brutal acts against innocent Kashmiries with false claims against Pakistan".

indian members must stop spreeding this BS agaisnt Pakistan and try to back up these claims with real sources not only  Never saw what is indian army doing in Kashmire? even the international comunity have their concerns on this matter.


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## jayron

sergente rehan said:


> For an instant i thought maybe something serious is posted...but as always it turned out to be a usual BS post by some indian member!
> 
> maybe i should open another thread to respond to this crap? "India trying to hide it's brutal acts against innocent Kashmiries with false claims against Pakistan".
> 
> indian members must stop spreeding this BS agaisnt Pakistan and try to back up these claims with real sources not only  Never saw what is indian army doing in Kashmire? even the international comunity have their concerns on this matter.



Excuse me... This is an editorial by a Pakistani newspaper on an report by BBC. Where does Indian hand come here? It is beyond me how you could brand this a an Indian propaganda.

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## PakSher

You know the shaboos bhajee ram cannot post anything useful. Baghal mau churee and mu may ram ram.


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## desiman

Omar1984 said:


> Kashmir belongs to Pakistan and we will do everything in our power to get it back.



k keep trying we shall see how long that last. People living in glass houses should not throw stones at others, no one should know this better than Pakistan.


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## karan.1970

Omar1984 said:


> Kashmir belongs to Pakistan and we will do everything in our power to get it back.



All the best....But I suspect everything in your power will not be enough. Wouldnt your power be better utilized in first weeding out terrorists in your own country who are mercilessly killing your citizens ??


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## Areesh

mjnaushad said:


> This also include IEDs, Grenade blasts.





SMC said:


> I can see a lot of blasts in which no one was killed or injured. WTF?
> 
> Most of these include insignificant blasts, 1 person injured, 2 people injured, etc. Overall, the numbers have significantly come down in last 8 months or so, and that's obviously observable. Yeah, it's still not pretty, but it's better than before.



Leave it. Poor benny just tried to make a point over something about which he himself don't know.


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## sensenreason

DV RULES said:


> *Kashmir is our essential part and we will take it at every cost *



This raises the question as to what Dr Singh was doing in Sharm-al-sheikh by agreeing to dehyphenate terror attacks from peace process.
Maybe all the talk of Sonia Gandhi being a CIA/KGB/OpusDei/ISI agent might have some truth in it; given Italian support for Pakistan position on Kashmir and UNSC reform.


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## rockstarIN

UnitedPak said:


> According to Indian sources there are* 500 active militants* in Kashmir
> 
> Human rights groups put the* Indian troops at 500 000 - 700 000*
> 
> *Since June, Indian army has killed 100+ innocent protesters*
> 
> Lets for a second ignore the numerous reports of fake encounters with militants and take the Indian army's word for the havoc the 500 alleged Pakistani militants create. Its not hard to conclude that the militants and LeT are not the main problem in Kashmir. Blaming the militancy and ignoring Indian army abuses is pure hypocrisy and cannot be taken seriously.




Boss the army is there mainly not for militants, they are there to prevent any such incidents like operation in 1965 & Kargil.

The only main arm of IA fighting against militants are Rashtriya Rifles, whose number is not more than 20k per district + Kashmir Police, mainly Kashmir police is hunting down the insurgents(Who are kashmiris) 


And regarding concluding the militants, they can send terror waves across the state doing just one incident.

Rgds,


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## Bhairava

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/79743-obama-s-statement-supports-pakistan-s-kashmir-stance-babar.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/79745-kashmir-separatists-say-obama-backs-their-position.html

Guys, first decide amongst yourselves whether Obama supported your stand or Kashmiri Stand or Indian stand.

So much insecurity/confusion and I am loving it.

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## MZUBAIR

Who ever wt ever say..!!!!
*Kashmir is not the part of India *

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## RobbieS

MZUBAIR said:


> Who ever wt ever say..!!!!
> *Kashmir is not the part of India *



Who ever wt ever say..!!!! 
*We hold it and that is the truth*

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Anti-India protests held in south Kashmir | Kashmir Media Service



> Srinagar, November 06 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, thousands of people staged massive demonstrations at Hatmulla in Islamabad, today, against the harassment of Sikh community members by the Indian troops, last evening.
> 
> Thousands of men, women and children of the Sikh community joined by the Muslims took to the streets and staged anti-India demonstrations. The protestors while chanting anti-India slogans said that the troopers of Armys 3 Rashtriya Rifles barged into the houses and harassed the Sikh community members.
> 
> They demanded identification and punishment for the Army men involved in intimidation of the Sikhs in the area. We will not be bowed down by such cheap acts. We demand identification and punishment for the troopers responsible for the act, President, Gurudwara Prabhandak Committee Hatmulla, Sardar Niranjan Singh said while addressing the demonstrators.











Arrest triggers protest in Baramulla town, 7 injured | Kashmir Media Service



> Srinagar, November 10 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, at least seven people were injured when Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) and police personnel fired teargas shells and used brute force to quell peaceful demonstrators in Baramulla town. Scores of men, women and children including the family members of the detained youth, marched to the main chowk and staged pro-freedom and anti-India demonstrations against the arrest of Parvez Ahmad Kaloo (28).
> 
> At least seven people including a hawl vendor, Bilal Ahmad Butt, were injured in firing of paramilitary forces. The critically injured, Bilal Ahmad Butt was admitted to Soura Institute of Medical Sciences in Srinagar. Medical Superintendent of the Hospital, Syed Tabish said that Bilal had received a bullet injury in his buttock. The adjacent pelvic bone is also injured. We are operating upon him, he added.





Delina, Palhalan under curfew | Kashmir Media Service



> Srinagar, November 11 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, authorities have imposed curfew at Delina and Palhalan areas in Baramulla district.
> 
> The curfew restrictions in Delina and Palhalan areas have been imposed since morning today, a police spokesman told media men. However, shops, business establishments and private offices remained closed due to the strike, called to protest against the civilian killings in Kashmir during the past five months by Indian paramilitary forces.
> 
> On the other hand, hundreds of people fled from the Pattan Town after troopers went berserk and beat people indiscriminately in the area. Early in the morning, locals said, Indian army and paramilitary troops started searching the houses and beating inmates at Mia Mohalla, Wani Mohalla, Teli Mohalla in the town.
> 
> Meanwhile, a woman died under mysterious circumstances in Leharwalpora in Bandipore.


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## MYSTIC

Another article turning state and national affair to a religious affair. What a really sad mindset? Pakistanis need to get over this Hindutva paranoia. No one other than Pakistanis endorse this India. BJP tried and they FAILED.


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## karan.1970

palash said:


> Forget the u.s.a., not even one islamic country apart from pakistan has condemned india for its so called "Indian state terrorism in Occupied Kashmir".
> 
> Pakistanis think that they are the "thekedaars" of kashmir. Not even one islamic country has endorsed pakistan's claims. Why??
> 
> The answer is simply that they don't see any such things happening there of which pakistan accuses us.
> 
> Padho likhoaur pakistan ko aage badhao. Yun kashmir kashmir ka raag alapne se pakistan develop nai hone vala. Kuch haasil hua hai aaj tak kashmir kashmir kar k?? Think.
> 
> Just look at india, we separated kashmir as a disputed region and by doing so we ensured that the rest of india does't get affected by it and develops at its own pace. And your interference has made it a living hell to live in.



Very well said.. But will fall on deaf ears. Thats why no one is surprised that Pakistan's strategy on Kashmir for last 60 yeas is a big fail..


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## riju78

Can someone give the original link from BBC Urdu please


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## WHF

MZUBAIR said:


> Who ever wt ever say..!!!!
> *Kashmir is not the part of India *



Our love for the motherland is greater than our enemy's love/fear of God.
pakistan has to wipe of the last nationalist in india to take kashmir.


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## shineonyoucrazydiamond

Jealous lol!!! hahaha!! Kashmir is India.. We do watever there but still it is..


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## sensenreason

MZUBAIR said:


> Who ever wt ever say..!!!!
> *Kashmir is not the part of India *



Yes, its currently a part of India, Pakistan and China.


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## xenia

Gounder said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/79743-obama-s-statement-supports-pakistan-s-kashmir-stance-babar.html
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/79745-kashmir-separatists-say-obama-backs-their-position.html
> 
> Guys, first decide amongst yourselves whether Obama supported your stand or Kashmiri Stand or Indian stand.
> 
> So much insecurity/confusion and I am loving it.



obama is a man of tide..just says whatever suits at particular point of time..


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Mirwaiz, Gilani & Shah Placed Under House Arrest*



> In occupied Kashmir, the authorities placed the APHC Chairman, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Gilani and APHC senior leader Shabbir Ahmad Shah under house arrest.
> 
> According to Kashmir Media Service, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq told media men that a huge contingent of police and paramilitary CRPF troopers cordoned off his Nageen residence and informed him that he could not move out.
> 
> Meanwhile, authorities have also not lifted the siege of the house of Syed Ali Gilani, who was arrested after he came from New Delhi on October 24 after attending a seminar there and was put him under house arrest at his Hyderpora residence in Srinagar.
> 
> Pertinently, authorities have not allowed Mirwaiz to offer Juma prayers at historic Jamia Masjid for eight consecutive Fridays.




Mirwaiz, Gilani & shah placed under house arrest | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## PakSher

Indian attrocities are crossing limits and they need to be taken to the UN and OIC for fresh sanctions against India.


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## ps80

PakSher said:


> Indian attrocities are crossing limits and they need to be taken to the UN and OIC for fresh sanctions against India.



...and who will do that?


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## karan.1970

PakSher said:


> Indian attrocities are crossing limits and they need to be taken to the UN and OIC for fresh sanctions against India.



Press Conference by Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon at United Nations Headquarters


Question: The second part of the question has not been answered. There is a framework for a settlement of the Kashmir dispute, based on the UN resolutions, as my colleague has said. And in view of the current crisis between nuclear-armed Pakistan and India, and there are tensions, *dont you think its time for you to step in and offer good offices to settle this question*?



Secretary-General: First of all, India and Pakistan, they are neighbouring countries, important nations in that region  peace and security would have important implications. As far as this role of good offices is concerned, *the United Nations normally takes that initiative when requested by both parties concerned*.


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## DesiGuy

he is just saying to get more votes.


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## PakSher

&#8216;I am turning into a mental wreck&#8217;

The Internet, particularly social networking sites, is the only breathing space as continuous curfew and shutdown has turned Kashmir into a semi-jail for the last 55 days. Except rare adventurous attempts - dodging stones hurled by protesters, swinging batons of security forces and saving oneself
in the nick of time by negotiating sharp curves in alleys to avoid stone-laden hands - to reach office, I, like most of the Valley residents, am confined to my house. A stroll of 500 metres is all I can afford in the day. That too, only at dusk. Protesters and security forces too take some breather in the evening after a tiring day.

Branding and bragging about being a journalist with a Delhi-based newspaper in front of the security forces has hardly helped me getting a safe passage.

"New Delhi is responsible for the mess in Kashmir. Your follies. You tweak the Kashmir situation. I will not allow you to pass. Go write whatever you want to. Somebody's follies and batons have been handed in our hands," said an angry and nervous CRPF jawan once when I tried to reach office, only seven kilometre away from my locality.

My family, like others, is facing crisis at the domestic level with the visuals of gore, images of draped young bodies, angry fists and sounds of staccato gunfire showing no signs of waning away. The tea is without milk twice a day. Kahwa, a kind of tea without milk, is our afternoon drink now. No more extra cups of tea. There is already a cut on amount of rice being cooked. Risking life and defying curfew at times pays and one gets Kashmiri bread for breakfast. Otherwise try stored snacks.

Kitchen garden has proved a boon in the time of crisis. Traditional vegetables, those that grow on their own and are no more cooked in the modern-day kitchen, are back on the menu whether you like it or not. Options at the dinner table are shrinking each passing day. Cornflakes, eggs and white oats are already off the breakfast table.

It has been weeks since I have seen relatives, friends and those known faces at Srinagar's coffee shops. Same space, same faces are even shrinking sense of privacy. Nitpicking over small issues are on between my parents and is the best way to pass time. From overflowing tank to the amount of salt in dishes can create ruckus at times. In jail, even prisoners who are best friends do fight at times.

I can see myself turning into a mental wreck. But surfing the Internet for fourteen hours has kept my senses intact and of course the daily reportage.

With no class work and assignments, my cousins are directionless about their curriculum. Exams seem a distant dream now. Unrest has put a blind on them and they have not been able to focus on studies. News and counting toll of the day on the television is more important than discussing career options. 

Besides losing the geometry of my mind, my kidneys, it seems, have swollen due to a erratic sleep regimen and working on the laptop. Puffy eyes and migraine are the order of the day, like most of my neighbours'.

The sound of protesters shouting slogans from the mosque speakers have crept into my dreams now. They resonate all night.

I want to see the sun shining at the Lal Chowk, Connaught Place of Srinagar, again.

?I am turning into a mental wreck? - Hindustan Times


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## 53fd

I accidentally thanked your post, & I don't know how to undo that.

I just wanted to let you know that your username is indicative of the propaganda in the content in your post.


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## Awesome

*Friday Prayers in Kashmir's Grand Mosque After 9 Weeks*



> Srinagar, Nov 12: The Friday congregation prayers were held in the Kashmir Grand Mosque (Jamia Masjid) after nine weeks today.
> 
> The authorities had been imposing a curfew and restrictions in old city area of Nowhatta since September 10, thereby preventing people from offering Friday prayers in Jamia Masjid.
> 
> The continuous denial of Friday prayers in the Grand Mosque and the imposition of a curfew on Friday drew strong resentment from Islamic scholars and clerics in Kashmir. They had warned to issue a ''fatwa'' (edict) against the Kashmir government if it did not lift the restrictions today.
> 
> Fearing religious edit, the authorities did not impose a curfew or restrictions in old city and allowed people to offer Friday prayers in the Grand mosque after nine weeks. People in thousands offered Friday congregational prayers in the grand mosque and prayed for peace and prosperity of the region.
> 
> The last Friday prayers were offered at Jamia Masjid on September 10, a day ahead of the Eid-ul-Fitr festival (holy Muslim festival marking culmination of a month of fasting).
> 
> However, moderate Kashmiri leader and cleric Mirwaz Umar Farooq, who used to deliver Friday sermons in Kashmir's Grand mosque was placed under house arrest by the authorities. "He was not allowed to move out and visit the Grand Mosque to offer Friday prayers, his spokesman said.



Growing up we used to hear urban legend type Islamic tales that if you miss three consecutive Friday prayers you're out of the folds of Islam . Indians here imposed this ban for 9 weeks! It's like Indians have no clue about the local people they are trying to forcibly hold on to. Every Indian action is an act of extreme subjugation of Kashmiris and that's why Kashmiris are now never going to come back in Indian control.

How much you wanna bet the first chance they get to deliver a sermon, it would be about Azadi from New Delhi's illegal occupation! I'd be interested in hearing the waz at Eid-ul-Adha.

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## Ammyy

Look like Kashmir is on peace track 

Slowly Kashmir coming out of gillanis trap recent failuar of protest is live example 

Best of luck for Kashmiri peoples


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## INDIAN007

Finally some peace In kashmir --


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## Awesome

DRDO said:


> Look like Kashmir is on peace track
> 
> Slowly Kashmir coming out of gillanis trap recent failuar of protest is live example
> 
> Best of luck for Kashmiri peoples


Haj and Eid approaches, it is traditionally a period of calm. The violence emanates from India's forceful occupation - Kashmiris have never been violent people. They strong and indomitable but not violent.


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## INDIAN007

May Allah Bless Kashmiris - May kashmiris dont support those seperatist > May peace prevail


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## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> Haj and Eid approaches, it is traditionally a period of calm. The violence emanates from India's forceful occupation - Kashmiris have never been violent people. They strong and indomitable but not violent.



We know that kashmiri are peace loving people but some bad elements ( i think no need to mention) dnt want peace in J&K .. 

Hope this is tight slap on their faces

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## Awesome

DRDO said:


> We know that kashmiri are peace loving people but some bad elements ( i think no need to mention) dnt want peace in J&K ..
> 
> Hope this is tight slap on their faces


Tight slap on their faces? They didn't ban the Friday Prayers, the Indian government did it!

It would be self-defeating for Kashmiris to continue with hartals during Eid as it is a time of business. The thing to watch out for would be if the Indian government has the guts to allow normal Eid prayers as everyone would definitely raise a joint voice against Indian rule when congregated together.


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## Awesome

Azadi Camp Hails Obama?s Dispute Word



> Srinagar, Nov 08, KONS: Elated at President Barack Obama suffixing Kashmir with dispute the azadi camp in Kashmir on Monday said that this was the result of the 5-month-long agitation in the valley and the sacrifices of the people.
> 
> President Obama has admitted at a press conference in Delhi that Kashmir is a dispute. Therefore, those harping on the atoot ang tune should recognise the disputed status of Jammu and Kashmir, and begin to think of giving the people of the state their right of self-determination, the chairman of the Hurriyat (G), Syed Ali Geelani, said.
> 
> The admission that President Obama has made on Indian soil is the fruit of our 5-month-long struggle and the blood of our youth, he said.
> 
> The chairman of the Hurriyat (M), Mirwaiz Umer Farooq, too, welcomed the US presidents remarks, saying that his alliance had always been insisting that India and Pakistan should work together with Kashmiris to resolve the issue.
> 
> We have always been asking the US to play a role in resolving Kashmir, and today President Obama too said that his country was ready to play a role, he said.
> 
> The US has declared Kashmir as a long-standing dispute between India and Pakistan, and this is a victory for the sacrifices of the masses, the Mirwaiz said.
> 
> The Kashmiri leadership and people are prepared to act as a bridge between India and Pakistan. Therefore, New Delhi too would have to adopt a positive approach, he said.
> 
> The chairman of the JKLF, Muhammad Yasin Malik, also described President Obamas remarks as positive.
> 
> The US presidents statement that Kashmir is a long-standing dispute, and that its resolution held the key for lasting peace in South Asia, is the absolute truth, he said.
> 
> Out of respect of the wishes of the US and the rest of the world, the people of Jammu and Kashmir have effected a positive transition from violence to non violence, and the international community must now take strong and positive steps to the resolve the Kashmir issue on a priority basis, he said.
> 
> The Jamast-e-Islami chief, Sheikh Muhammad Hassan, said that President Obama had admitted the reality on Kashmir, and that India should now take the initiative on resolving Kashmir without any pre-conditions.



I personally think Obama's words were not enough and he needs to "do more". At least he didn't leave India calling Kashmir "an integral part of India". The game is still on, it shows the Americans are still not in the position where they will accept total Indian point of view readily. I really think the American president should entertain Mirwaiz, Geelani and even Yaseen Malik and really get a first hand account of what Kashmiris think about the issue. His statement "Kashmir is a long standing dispute between Indian and Pakistan" Should have been Kashmir Dispute has been a suffering for the people of Kashmir.

World leaders need to forget about India and Pakistan and think about Kashmiris.

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## pankaj agrawal

Official standing of USA

US terms Kashmir Valley protest India&#8217;s internal matter

WASHINGTON: The United States said on Saturday that it would like Indian and Pakistani foreign ministers to discuss the Kashmir dispute when they meet in Islamabad later this month. 

US State Department&#8217;s deputy spokesman Mark Tone also told journalists that the current situation in Indian occupied Kashmir was India&#8217;s internal issue and asked protesters to conduct agitations in a peaceful manner. 

&#8220;We always support dialogue between India and Pakistan,&#8221; Mr Toner said when asked if Kashmir should be discussed between the two countries. 

&#8220;We regret the loss of life in this incident. It is an internal Indian matter. We respect the efforts of the government of India to investigate and resolve the current situation in Kashmir,&#8221; he said, adding that the United States had always encouraged India and Pakistan to resolve all its differences through dialogue. 

&#8220;In terms of the protest, we would just urge everyone to refrain from violence and conduct protest in a free and peaceful manner,&#8221; said the US official.

DAWN.COM | Front Page | US terms Kashmir Valley protest India?s internal matter


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## Developereo

pankaj agrawal said:


> WASHINGTON: The United States said on Saturday that it would like *Indian and Pakistani foreign ministers to discuss the Kashmir dispute* when they meet in Islamabad later this month.
> 
> US State Departments deputy spokesman Mark Tone also told journalists that the current situation in *Indian occupied Kashmir was Indias internal issue* and asked protesters to conduct agitations in a peaceful manner.



Now why on Earth would the US urge India to talk to Pakistan about an internal matter?


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## Awesome

pankaj agrawal said:


> Official standing of USA
> 
> US terms Kashmir Valley protest India&#8217;s internal matter
> 
> WASHINGTON: The United States said on Saturday that it would like Indian and Pakistani foreign ministers to discuss the Kashmir dispute when they meet in Islamabad later this month.
> 
> US State Department&#8217;s deputy spokesman Mark Tone also told journalists that the current situation in Indian occupied Kashmir was India&#8217;s internal issue and asked protesters to conduct agitations in a peaceful manner.
> 
> &#8220;We always support dialogue between India and Pakistan,&#8221; Mr Toner said when asked if Kashmir should be discussed between the two countries.
> 
> &#8220;We regret the loss of life in this incident. It is an internal Indian matter. We respect the efforts of the government of India to investigate and resolve the current situation in Kashmir,&#8221; he said, adding that the United States had always encouraged India and Pakistan to resolve all its differences through dialogue.
> 
> &#8220;In terms of the protest, we would just urge everyone to refrain from violence and conduct protest in a free and peaceful manner,&#8221; said the US official.
> 
> DAWN.COM | Front Page | US terms Kashmir Valley protest India?s internal matter


Of course the protest is by Kashmiris and the US going by UN resolutions does not recognize the KAshmiris as an official party of the dispute only India and Pakistan.

The best thing the US can do is forget about India and Pakistan and only recognize Kashmiris as the official party of the dispute! It does not mean the US does not recognize it as a dispute - their main guy said so in your nations capital.


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## jakiconf

Salim said:


> A good story.
> 
> No wonder the BBC was called *B*luff *B*luster * C*orporation!
> 
> This is hardly the sentiment that is displayed. It is the usual journalistic ploy of writing fiction that appeals and stating that the source wants to be anonymous!
> 
> There is no doubt, it is a sad task. Who likes killing anyone? Not me I assure you. But when it is someone else killing me, then maybe I can overcome the distaste and take action necessary even if it is day in and day out.
> 
> It is cold. It is lonely. But then the Army life is no bed of roses! Ask those SSG chaps at Lal Majzid. Did they like doing what they did? NO. But then, if they did not do it, their country's stability would go for a six. And the enemies of Pakistan would rip its innards!
> 
> A tough decision. But a decision where the love of one's country (and thus all citizens of the country) is pitted with the basic instinct being a human being with love for all including traitors and the enemy!
> 
> The Lal Mazjid chaps were traitors to the stability of Pakistan!



UNHCR | Refworld | India's Secret Army in Kashmir: New Patterns of Abuse Emerge in the Conflict

read and learn untill then shut up


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## jakiconf

yawn all you people briing up other cases of rape (eg pakitani rape innbagbaldesh) stop going off topic its irrelevant at this point
waht does paksitanis aping bengalis in bangladesh ahve to do wiht indians raping kahsmiris in kahsmir?
are u suggesting ebcase pakistan did it its ok for india to do it?
its not ok for teither
and the tryuht whther u like irt or now
is that 
indian armed forces are responsible for widespread rape of kahsmiri owmen; and also idnian sposndes illegal miltias re reposnable for widespread rape of kashmiri women,
get off your hgihh horse and dont defend the indian armyon this.


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## LaBong

^yo da mhan.


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## storm seeker

jakiconf said:


> yawn all you people briing up other cases of rape (eg pakitani rape innbagbaldesh) stop going off topic its irrelevant at this point
> waht does paksitanis aping bengalis in bangladesh ahve to do wiht indians raping kahsmiris in kahsmir?
> are u suggesting ebcase pakistan did it its ok for india to do it?
> its not ok for teither
> and the tryuht whther u like irt or now
> is that
> indian armed forces are responsible for widespread rape of kahsmiri owmen; and also idnian sposndes illegal miltias re reposnable for widespread rape of kashmiri women,
> get off your hgihh horse and dont defend the indian armyon this.






applauses !!!! thats the thing they won't understand ever in their lives .


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## true_indian

Oh please.. He said there is a dispute(universally known)..but he never said anything to resolve it. He left it to us. I don't think it would matter even if Obama said something.. any resolution on Kashmir would be vetoed by Russia..India would see to it.


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## EgO Boy

Adux said:


> Hey hey, There are people over here who dont understand Hindi/Urdu, *can we please stick on to the Queen MOM's english*





YOU STICK TO UR MOM, WE STICK TO OUR'S


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## MYSTIC

US will not say a word on Kashmir. You could see how Obama was trying to avoid or dodge questions related to Kashmir.


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## Bang Galore

Asim Aquil said:


> *The best thing the US can do is forget about India and Pakistan and only recognize Kashmiris as the official party of the dispute!* It does not mean the US does not recognize it as a dispute - their main guy said so in your nations capital.



Now why would the US want to do that? And just after calling India-US ties indispensable? If the US was in the habit of shooting themselves in the foot, they would done so long ago, on a certain matter of Tibet. The first reaction of the Kashmiri separatists was one of disappointment. Now they are clutching at straws in the vain hope that they won't be dismissed as irrelevant by a lot of fellow Kashmiris. Hence this pathetic claim.No one else is buying it.

I am surprised that so many buy the idea that the India can be decisively influenced by American stand on Kashmir. If as many claim, Pakistan can't be influenced to do more than it believes to be in its national interest by the US, then what realistic chance do the Americans have with India- a country that's in a relatively far better position than Pakistan.


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## Awesome

Bang Galore said:


> Now why would the US want to do that? And just after calling India-US ties indispensable? If the US was in the habit of shooting themselves in the foot, they would done so long ago, on a certain matter of Tibet. The first reaction of the Kashmiri separatists was one of disappointment. Now they are clutching at straws in the vain hope that they won't be dismissed as irrelevant by a lot of fellow Kashmiris. Hence this pathetic claim.No one else is buying it.
> 
> I am surprised that so many buy the idea that the India can be decisively influenced by American stand on Kashmir. If as many claim, Pakistan can't be influenced to do more than it believes to be in its national interest by the US, then what realistic chance do the Americans have with India- a country that's in a relatively far better position than Pakistan.


Sooner or later a good human being would be elected to the White house and won't be able to ignore that the biggest democracy is committed to being a force against self-determination.


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## Gandhi G in da house

Asim Aquil said:


> Sooner or later a good human being would be elected to the White house and won't be able to ignore that the biggest democracy is committed to being a force against self-determination.



Awwwww... that melted my heart.

Hear's another scenario- sooner or later a good human being would be elected to the white house who will first ask the kashmiri muslims and pakistanis , why they did what they did to the kashmiri minorites and after all that , what moral right do they have to cry for the human rights of the majority there ?

And that good human being would also ask what this freedom movement has to do with 'Kashmiriyat' as the separatists like to claim when it is only the kashmiri sunni muslims who support it and no one else .


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## Bang Galore

Asim Aquil said:


> Sooner or later a good human being would be elected to the White house and won't be able to ignore that the biggest democracy is committed to being a force against self-determination.



And why would that _good human being_ be satisfied with just that. Might want to also look at the Baluchistan issue, the Tibetan issue, the Kurdish issue & so on. Why would a _good human being _bother himself with technicalities of whether something is disputed or not?

Btw, the question i raised earlier of why the whole lot of you guys believe that the US can influence us to act against what we perceive to be our national interest remains unanswered.

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## LaBong

> And that good human being would also ask what this freedom movement has to do with 'Kashmiriyat' as the separatists like to claim when it is only the *kashmiri muslims* who support it and no one else .



Kashmiri Sunni Muslims of valley would be more aptly put.


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## Awesome

nick_indian said:


> Awwwww... that melted my heart.
> 
> Hear's another scenario- sooner or later a good human being would be elected to the white house who will first ask the kashmiri muslims and pakistanis , why they did what they did to the kashmiri minorites and after all that , what moral right do they have to cry for the human rights of the majority there ?
> 
> And that good human being would also ask what this freedom movement has to do with 'Kashmiriyat' as the separatists like to claim when it is only the kashmiri sunni muslims who support it and no one else .


All separatists have welcomed minorities back and a free Kashmir would be a secular one.

The creation of strife with the minorities was executed by India and India alone when it refused to grant them their right for self-determination.

Give them their democratic rights and let everyone vote for whatever they want to.


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## Awesome

Bang Galore said:


> And why would that _good human being_ be satisfied with just that. Might want to also look at the Baluchistan issue, the Tibetan issue, the Kurdish issue & so on. Why would a _good human being _bother himself with technicalities of whether something is disputed or not?
> 
> Btw, the question i raised earlier of why the whole lot of you guys believe that the US can influence us to act against what we perceive to be our national interest remains unanswered.


Anywhere where the UN mandates the right to self-determination that should be given. Only Kashmir fits that description.

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## Awesome

Mangalorean.Com- Serving Mangaloreans Around The World!



> Minorities in an "independent Jammu and Kashmir" would enjoy secular rights, maintained the octogenarian leader.


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## Awesome

Bang Galore said:


> And why would that _good human being_ be satisfied with just that. Might want to also look at the Baluchistan issue, the Tibetan issue, the Kurdish issue & so on. Why would a _good human being _bother himself with technicalities of whether something is disputed or not?
> 
> Btw, the question i raised earlier of why the whole lot of you guys believe that the US can influence us to act against what we perceive to be our national interest remains unanswered.


The US did take on Yogusalavia and then later on Serbia for causes of Muslim freedom. Sooner or later, Indian money won't be enough a reason to justify suppression and subjugation of Kashmiris.


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## LaBong

> Minorities in an "independent Jammu and Kashmir" would enjoy secular rights, maintained the octogenarian leader.



First let Geelani to reciprocate his words by work as well.


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## Awesome

Abir said:


> First let Geelani to reciprocate his words by work as well.


The government is an Indian imposed one, not of Geelani's making.


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## Fact_ur_mine

Asim Aquil said:


> I personally think Obama's words were not enough and he needs to "do more". At least he didn't leave India calling Kashmir "an integral part of India". The game is still on, it shows the Americans are still not in the position where they will accept total Indian point of view readily. *I really think the American president should entertain Mirwaiz, Geelani and even Yaseen Malik and really get a first hand account of what Kashmiris think about the issue.* His statement "Kashmir is a long standing dispute between Indian and Pakistan" Should have been Kashmir Dispute has been a suffering for the people of Kashmir.
> 
> World leaders need to forget about India and Pakistan and think about Kashmiris.



Why should obama entertain these leaders, is there any mutual interest between two?? No
I think its so weak statement to say that obama gets " first hand account of what Kashmiris think about the issue".

Obama already knows everything and turning deaf to it, why so??
Get an idea, i must say that pakistans leadership dont request obama to say over kashmir issue and get humiliated by striaght NO.


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## Gandhi G in da house

Asim Aquil said:


> All separatists have welcomed minorities back and a free Kashmir would be a secular one.
> 
> The creation of strife with the minorities was executed by India and India alone when it refused to grant them their right for self-determination.
> 
> Give them their democratic rights and let everyone vote for whatever they want to.



I don't think you have been reading the news lately.

Geelani has repeatedly called for making Kashmir an islamic state and has also stated that hindus and Muslims are a separate nation which can't live together.

And this guy enjoys rock star status among the kashmiri sunni muslims in the kashmir valley , it doesn't take much of an effort to know the wishes of the sunni muslims there.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Geelani: Kashmiris want liberation from India ​*






Friday, 12 November 2010 21:04 


Srinagar, November 12, 2010: All Parties Hurriyat Conference Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, has urged India to realise ground realities and give Kashmiris their right of Self-Determination. Syed Ali Shah Geelani in a statement issued in Srinagar said that the continued agitation in the occupied territory for the last over four months had proved that the people of Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK) did not want to live with India but wanted liberation from its bondage.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani also denounced the crackdowns by occupation authorities against different Hurriyat leaders. He said that India wanted to suppress the Kashmiris ongoing "Quit Kashmir Movement" through use of brute force but it would never succeed in its nefarious designs.

APHC Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani had said that New Delhi had used every brute tactic to prevent the people from raising voice for their inalienable right. The people of Kashmir will continue their just struggle despite all odds till its logical conclusion, he vowed.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani expressed concern over the deteriorating health of illegally detained Kashmiri Hurriyat leaders and activists, languishing in different jails and interrogation centres of India and the occupied valley. He demanded of their immediate unconditional release.

The authorities placed the APHC Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and many other APHC senior leaders. Meanwhile, authorities have also not lifted the siege of the house of Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who was arrested after he came from New Delhi on October 24 after attending a seminar there and was put him under house arrest at his Hyderpora residence in Srinagar.

APHC leader and the Acting Chairman of Jammu and Kashmir Peoples League (JKPL), Mukhtar Ahmad Waza has expressed serious concern over the plight of illegally detained pro-freedom leaders and activists, languishing in different jails in and outside the territory.

Mukhtar Ahmad Waza in a statement issued in Srinagar said that the unlawfully detained Hurriyet leaders and activists including Yasmeen Raja, Muhammad Ashraf Sehrai, Mian Abdul Qayoom and Ghulam Nabi Shaheen were suffering from different ailments due to the lack of proper medical facilities in jails.

He urged India to give up its unrealistic stance on Kashmir and take concrete steps to resolve the dispute in accordance with the Kashmiris aspirations. India must acknowledge Kashmirs disputed nature and amicably settle it according to the peoples wishes by giving them the right of Self-Determination, he added.

Waza strongly denounced the continued curfew in Sheer, Delina and Palhalan and accentuated that India would not be able to suppress Kashmiris just struggle through use of brute force. He appealed the United Nations, Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC) and human rights organisations including Amnesty International and Asia Watch to put pressure on India for early settlement of the lingering dispute.

The Chairman of Jammu and Kashmir Peoples Freedom League (JKPFL), Muhammad Farooq Rehmani, has denounced the gross human rights violations perpetrated by Indian troops in Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK).

Muhammad Farooq Rehmani in a statement issued in Islamabad said that New Delhi was utilising every brute tactic to suppress the ongoing "Quit Kashmir Movement". Kashmiris have rendered matchless sacrifices for liberation movement and they will continue their struggle till complete success, he added

He said that the occupation authorities were illegally detaining the innocent Kashmiri people for raising voice against the Indian state terrorism in the territory. Rehmani said that the day was not away when the people of the occupied territory would get rid of Indian bondage.

The Chairman of JKPFL reiterated the pledge to continue liberation movement despite all odds. He also demanded of the United Nations to resolve the longstanding Kashmir dispute in accordance with Kashmiris aspirations so that permanent peace could be established in South Asia.

The Chairman of Kashmir Centre Brussels, Barrister Abdul Majeed Tramboo has denounced the use of brute force against innocent Kashmiris in Pattan by Indian troops. Barrister Abdul Majeed Tramboo in a statement issued in Brussels said that the occupation troops resorted to heavy lathi charge and severely injured Kashmiri youth, doctors and teachers. On one hand, the occupation authorities have unleashed reign of terror across the territory and, on the other, India is talking about negotiations, he added.

He expressed concern over the harassment of Hurriyat leaders, illegal detention of pro-freedom leaders and restrictions imposed by the occupation authorities on Kashmiris to perform religious duties at their respective holy places.

Paying glowing tributes to Arif Ahmad Matta, a Kashmiri, resident of Chankral Muhallah, who was martyred by Indian troops, he said that the troopers were using brute tactics to suppress peoples struggle against illegal Indian occupation.

A teenaged boy, who was battling for life after being hit by a teargas shell of paramilitary forces during protests last year, succumbed to injuries, today.

The 14-year-old, Mohammad Aarif Butt died on Friday morning at his residence in Habbakadal area of the Srinagar city and was laid to rest at Eidgah graveyard.

He was hit by a tear smoke shell fired by paramilitary forces to quell protests at Maisuma near Budshah Chowk in October last year. He had later slipped into coma at the hospital. He was shifted to his house, where he was under treatment, for the past several months.

At least 20 civilians including a local doctor were injured when troopers and police went on a beating spree indiscriminately in Pattan area of Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK). Six persons were also detained from the neighbouring Palhallan area.

The locals of Pattan said that troopers barged into the residential houses and a girls school and beat inmates and teachers. The residents stated, the troops, comprising 29 Rashtriya Rifles, Central Reserve Police Force and Special Operations Group, brandishing sticks and sophisticated weapons, started house to house searches in different Pattan localities like Gojri Mohalla, Jamia Mohalla, Wani Mohalla, Ahangar Mohalla and beat the inmates without any reason.

The troopers also smashed windowpanes and damaged houses. They said that due to intimidation by troops, many youth had to flee from the area to save themselves from getting beaten. The residents said that the beating spree started on Wednesday evening when troops and police laid siege of Bazaar Mohalla, Kandhar Mohalla, Gashiwara, Teli Mohalla, Gori Mohalla, Wani Mohalla and Sofi Mohalla.

In Palhallan, the locals said, police and CRPF raided Tantray Mohalla and detained six youth and beat people without any rhyme. The CRPF troopers along with army also barged into Girls Middle School, Goshbug, and went on a beating spree. Panic spread in the entire school, an eyewitness said adding, They beat up teachers.

Hospital authorities in Pattan said they treated six people with one having grievous injuries. They said Abdul Majid Gojri received six stitches in his head as he was severely beaten by the troopers. At Bakhipora Rafiabad, teachers in a Government school were threatened by police after the former refused to show them the attendance register.

Forceful anti-India and pro-liberation demonstrations rocked Srinagar, Budgam, Baramulla, Sopore and other towns of OSJK. People took to streets, shouting high-pitched slogans to press their demand of freedom from Indian bondage. The troops fired teargas shells and resorted to heavy baton charge to disperse demonstrators. Clashes were witnessed all along the day between the protesters and Indian police in Noorbagh, Qamarwari, Nowhatta, Habba Kadal, Sopore and Baramulla.

In Hajan, liberation leaders addressing a protest demonstration asked India to accept ground realities and come forward to resolve the Kashmir dispute in accordance with the Kashmiris aspirations. APHC Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelanis house and his offices in Haiderpora were besieged by Indian paramilitary troopers, preventing him and his party workers from offering Juma prayers.

The authorities also placed APHC leader, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and other leaders under house arrest. Due to restrictions, the Mirwaiz Umar Farooq could not offer Juma prayers for the 9th consecutive Friday.

A teenaged boy, battling for life after being hit by a teargas shell of paramilitary forces during pro-liberation protests died, today, at Habba Kadal in Srinagar. An Indian trooper was killed in an attack at Krankshun in Sopore.

Geelani: Kashmiris want liberation from India


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## Mirza Jatt

lol....ask him to say something new..even the kashmiris themselves are tired of listening to this line for decades


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## nomi007

Indian Jatt i think u did not remember the operation in golden temple

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## Mirza Jatt

nomi007 said:


> Indian Jatt i think u did not remember the operation in golden temple



I very well do...its something we can never forget....but good that you brought up this issue although with an unsuccessful attempt to try and hurt some sentiments. So go ahead and tell me how you will relate that incident to this and everything that you want dicuss about the GT incident. i am here to clear your doubts once and for all.

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## LaBong

Asim Aquil said:


> The government is an Indian imposed one, not of Geelani's making.



But security of minorities in Kashmir depends on Gelaani and his groupies.


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## Awesome

Abir said:


> But security of minorities in Kashmir depends on Gelaani and his groupies.


Till he has a say in governmental decisions, there is no responsibility or accountability of security. He or other separatists are fighting for that right to be given to them.

Till then only Indian government is responsible all in all for everything that goes wrong in Kashmir.


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## Awesome

nick_indian said:


> I don't think you have been reading the news lately.
> 
> Geelani has repeatedly called for making Kashmir an islamic state and has also stated that hindus and Muslims are a separate nation which can't live together.
> 
> And this guy enjoys rock star status among the kashmiri sunni muslims in the kashmir valley , it doesn't take much of an effort to know the wishes of the sunni muslims there.


Oh please, Geelani is one guy and I have presented to you QUOTE of what even he has said the governmental norms of a Free Kashmir would be.


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## dabong1

true_indian said:


> any resolution on Kashmir would be vetoed by Russia..India would see to it.



Theres already a UN resolution on Kashmir.....what would the russians veto?


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## Rafi

The US is showing its friendship to india, by arming to the teeth, its strategic adversary, with state of the art weaponry, wow with a friend like that who needs enemies. 

History has shown us, even in South Asia, that people can not be held captive by bullets and bombs.


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## dabong1

Bang Galore said:


> If the US was in the habit of shooting themselves in the foot, they would done so long ago, on a certain matter of Tibet.



You seem to forget that there is no UN resolution on Tibet while there is one in kashmir.
The indians where the ones that took the matter to the UN in the first place and got a UN resolution passed which they have failed to act on it and now want to be part of the UNSC.


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## TATA

Developereo said:


> Now why on Earth would the US urge India to talk to Pakistan about an internal matter?



*Because, currently Jammu and Kashmir is India's integral part but when we say Kashmir it means the whole Kashmir including occupied Kashmir with china, pakistan, gilgit baltistan etc. etc.* 

*So, J&K is undisputed part of India and occupied Kashmir under china and pakistan is disputed.*


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## dabong1

Abir said:


> But security of minorities in Kashmir depends on Gelaani and his groupies.



The minorities in Kashmir will get the same security as the minorities in india get......is that standard okay?


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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> Anywhere where the UN mandates the right to self-determination that should be given. Only Kashmir fits that description.



Do you really believe US goes by what UN mandates? The bogey of UN resolution is just that.. A bogey.. Do compare the civilian deaths in Kashmir and Balochistan (including the 100 in Kashmir in last 4 months) in last 5-7 years and you would know which area would a "GOOD MAN" in White House look at first..

So either stick to morality or to UN resolution. Flip flopping between the 2 niether does justice to the cause nor to the discussion..


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## karan.1970

dabong1 said:


> Theres already a UN resolution on Kashmir.....what would the russians veto?



Non Binding. And the recent statements from Ban ki Moon indicate what the whole world including UN thinks of those resolutions. 

No UN mediation in Kashmir until both parties ask: Ban Ki-moon - The Times of India


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## MYSTIC

makethetruth. com


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## riju78

*Musharraf backs gradual shutdown of militants*


Former Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf has advocated a gradual approach in trying to shut down anti-India militant groups fighting in Kashmir, noting the popularity of such groups among Pakistanis.

Speaking at the Atlantic Council this week, Mr. Musharraf also praised the militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba's (LeT) charitable wing, Jamaat-ud-Dawa, for having done the "best job" in relief operations after the 2005 earthquake in the part of Kashmir claimed by Pakistan and an "excellent job" in the aftermath of the recent floods.

Mr. Musharraf said militant groups like LeT, Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM) and Hizb-ul-Mujahedeen are popular in Pakistan because they oppose India's military. "When they go and fight in Kashmir, it is very popular with the people of Pakistan. They are mujahedeen, and they are fighting the Indian army," he said.

He added that successive Pakistani governments have been reluctant to shut these groups down because they are so popular.

According to U.S. and Indian intelligence agencies, LeT was behind the 2008 Mumbai attack in which 166 people, including six Americans, were killed.

Pervez Musharraf
The Obama administration has been pressing the Pakistani government to sever ties to terrorist groups, including LeT and JeM. In a meeting in Washington last month with Pakistan's chief of the army staff, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, President Obama sought to censure Pakistani tolerance of or support for terrorism.

Mr. Obama conveyed his concerns about "ticking time bombs" that could spell catastrophe for the U.S.-Pakistan relationship, said Bruce Riedel, who conducted a review of U.S. policy in Pakistan and Afghanistan for Mr. Obama, at the New America Foundation this week.

Mr. Riedel described the two time bombs as "a mass-casualty terrorist attack inside the U.S. postmarked Pakistan" and LeT carrying out "another 26/11 somewhere in India."

India refers to the 2008 Mumbai attacks, which began on Nov. 26, as 26/11.

In the past several months, potentially devastating acts of terrorism have been foiled, including failed attempts to bomb Times Square in New York and place bombs on Washington's Metro transit system. Pakistani Americans were involved in both cases.

As president, Mr. Musharraf had banned some militants groups, but they continued their activities under new names. Shutting down the groups "is easier said than done," he said.

But Islamabad does not abet the creation of safe havens for militants, Mr. Musharraf said, adding that the U.S. needs to develop a better understanding of Pakistan's army and Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency before blaming them for sheltering insurgents.

Western intelligence officials say Taliban and al Qaeda fighters are being provided safe haven in Pakistan's lawless tribal belt, especially around the cities of Quetta and Peshawar.

"While these refugee camps may be a safe haven for any kind of activity, it is not government-sponsored," Mr. Musharraf said. "There is no safe haven created or no abetting with the Taliban to come and stay there."

Mr. Musharraf said there are a dozen such refugee camps in Pakistan. "Terrorists must be coming and staying in these camps, there must be people who are harboring them," he said.

U.S. officials say ISI continues to maintain linkages to militant groups, including the Pakistani Taliban, LeT and the Haqqani Network.

These concerns were reinforced by the confession of Pakistani American David Coleman Headley on the role the ISI played in planning the Mumbai operation. Headley pleaded guilty to helping LeT carry out the Mumbai attacks by carrying out surveillance of targets.

A U.S. official, speaking on the condition of anonymity due to the sensitive nature of the information, said terrorist safe havens in Pakistan are not confined to the northwestern region straddling the border with Afghanistan.

"There are terrorists in Pakistan outside the frontier areas, which is definitely contributing to the threat against U.S. troops in Afghanistan and against Pakistan itself," the U.S. official said.

A second U.S. official, who also spoke on the condition of anonymity, said: "Everyone's eyes are wide open  to the complexities of the Pakistanis' historical relationships with certain players in the region."

In his new memoir "Decision Points," former President George W. Bush writes that some in the ISI retained close ties to Taliban officials, while others wanted an insurance policy in case the U.S. abandoned Afghanistan and India tried to gain influence there.

In 2005 and 2006, sanctuaries in Peshawar and Quetta aided the rise of the insurgency, Mr. Bush said.

By 2008, he got tired of reading intelligence reports about terrorist sanctuaries in Pakistan and hinted that he sanctioned the covert Predator drone strikes in Pakistan.

"Over time, it became clear that Musharraf either would not or could not fulfill all his promises" to deny al Qaeda safe haven in Pakistan and break ties with the Taliban, Mr. Bush writes, adding that part of the problem was Pakistan's "obsession with India."

Mr. Musharraf described Kashmir as the root cause of terrorism in the region and lamented the fact that Mr. Obama did not raise the issue on his recent visit to India. "The solution is the resolution of the Kashmir dispute. Not because Pakistan wants it, it is necessary for the world to fight terrorism and extremism," the former Pakistani leader said.

On the use of Predator drones to kill militants hiding in Pakistan's tribal areas, Mr. Musharraf said the use of the unmanned aerial vehicles pose a dilemma since the drones kill militants but their indiscriminate use has caused collateral damage.

Mr. Musharraf, who has launched his own political party, is exploring the possibility of returning to Pakistan and running for the office of president  a position he held for seven years after seizing power in a bloodless coup in 1999. He was forced to resign in 2008.

Musharraf backs gradual shutdown of militants - Washington Times


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## riju78

Musharraf acknowledges that Pakistan backed terrorists

After returning to big politics, former Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf has made a number of sudden revelations. For example, he has recently said that Kashmiri terrorists were trained in special camps in Pakistan. Several days ago, he said that the US and Pakistan were taking part in a jihad against the Soviet troops in Afghanistan in the 1980s.

An old saying has it that every secret sooner or later becomes public. Speaking at the Atlantic Council, General Musharraf said that the United States and Pakistan called their war against the Soviet troops a jihad (a Muslim word meaning holy war) to attract mujahedins from all over the world. The general also mentioned that the US and Pakistan trained Talibs, supplied them with weapons and sent them to Afghanistan.

Mr. Musharrafs revelations only confirm what the Pakistani authorities tried to conceal for many years, but what, in fact, was nobodys secret. The former Pakistani authorities not only didnt prosecute terrorists, they let them openly form all kinds of gangs, open training camps in the country and collect money. In fact, Pakistani borders were open for all kinds of terrorists  Chechen and Arab militants, Kashmiri separatists, Afghan talibs, al Qaeda leaders and the like. Some people even openly collected donations for Chechen terrorists or held rallies in their support in some Pakistani cities.

In fact, in the tragic events of 9.11 and other terror acts, Americans only reaped the fruits of their former politics in Afghanistan. In the years of the Cold War, the US itself supported Afghan mujahedins. When the Taliban seized power in Afghanistan, Pakistan was the first to recognize them as a legitimate government. For many years, Pakistani authorities never hesitated to give shelter to terrorist organizations of all kinds  and, judging by everything, they are still flourishing in Pakistan. Even some high-ranking US politicians, including State Secretary Hillary Clinton, acknowledge that.

There is another ancient saying  evil always comes back to the one whos committed it. It is well known that it was the mujahedins, once backed by the US, who spread the ideas of Wahhabism in the Middle East. It is due to the popularity of these ideas that the Taliban came to power in Afghanistan in 1996, after which the country turned into a hotbed of terrorism. The ones who suffered most from all that were Americans themselves  remember 9.11 and the bloody war in Afghanistan and in the Pakistani north-west, which hasnt stopped yet.

Well, lets hope that at last one good thing will come out of these most sad events - that they serve as a lesson for future US politicians.

Musharraf acknowledges that Pakistan backed terrorists: Voice of Russia


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## Jagganaut

Hasn't this been happening ever since Independence? Haven't they learned that whatever they're doing isn't working? Whatever, the more militants we kill the better.


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## satishkumarcsc

you people are reviving a 3 y/o thread and bashing a guy banned 2 years back? man this is ridiculous.


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## sparklingway

This is a three year old thread and it's pointless reviving it. Closed.


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## Awesome

Kashmir to get tough with separatists - Hindustan Times



> In a bid to restore a semblance of order in the troubled Kashmir Valley, the Jammu and Kashmir government has decided to get tough with separatists, according to official sources. Top separatist leaders like hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani and his rival Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and their hardcore supporters are said to be on the police 'wanted list'.
> According to the sources, all the supporters of the separatist leaders as well as middle-rung leaders would be arrested to isolate them "and make them non-functional", a reliable source told IANS.
> 
> "This strategy has been adopted to create a situation which takes fear out of the minds of the people who have been harassed by the street protests engineered by the separatists," the source said.
> 
> More than 110 people were killed in clashes with police and paramilitary forces in the past five months in the valley. Many more were wounded.



The last paragraph should read 110 people have been killed by the Indian police!

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## Bhairava

Good....atleast now they are waking up.

BTW I liked the words "and make them non-functional"...

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## karan.1970

Asim Aquil said:


> Kashmir to get tough with separatists - Hindustan Times
> 
> 
> 
> The last paragraph should read 110 people have been killed by the Indian police!



I would put it as 110 rioters have died in clashes with the police

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## roach

Laaton ke bhoot baat se nahin maante.

Improve governance, bring investments into Kashmir, provide jobs for youth so that they have some option other than accepting money from troublemongers to throw rocks at policemen.

All this Aazadi nonsense will soon be history. This isn't 1971.


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## sam_every where

getting tough on a wound, only makes it worse and worse, until eventually you have to cut that part of body to avoid spreading disease in other parts

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## prototype

finally Th govt had awakened,very late move,but better late than never,the separatist's had already enjoyed the fruit of India's resilience and it's democratic rights so much

They call us the aggressors,the suppressors,now for real let them watch what is called aggression.

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## Novice09

alex mercer said:


> finally Th govt had awakened,very late move,but better late than never,the separatist's had already enjoyed the fruit of India's resilience and it's democratic rights so much
> 
> They call us the aggressors,the suppressors,now for real let them watch what is called aggression.



Even now I'm not sure *how tough* GoI can act against these separatists? a boneless PM can't exceed his limits which are too limited ...

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## Infinity

Novice09 said:


> Even now I'm not sure *how tough* GoI can act against these separatists? a boneless PM can't exceed his limits which are too limited ...



India is a Democracy.
So a boneless PM comment is unwarranted


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## Humanist

*110 rioters who were paid to riot were killed. * 

*We have be strict all over our country and use iron hands for this kind of paid goons.*

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## sam_every where

Humanist said:


> *110 rioters who were paid to riot were killed. *
> 
> *We have be strict all over our country and use iron hands* for this kind of paid goons.



haha, and you are humanist????, u should have used a more humane/soft way to address the problem..., u sound hitler

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## Sprint

sam_every where said:


> getting tough on a wound, only makes it worse and worse, until eventually you have to cut that part of body to avoid spreading disease in other parts



My two cents: just to remind you that amputed part is already dead and dead parts are not transplanted.

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## jha

Make them non-functional...??

Good decision..


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## Markus

GoI should have got tough with the separatists during the 90's itself.


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## SpArK

*Infiltration bid foiled along LoC in Poonch, 2 ultras killed​*

Army troops today foiled an infiltration bid and shot dead two militants along the Line of Control (LOC) in Poonch district of Jammu & Kashmir.

Troops of 5 Maratha Light Infantry (MLI) found suspicious movement between Anand and Gain forward defence posts in Sona Gali forest belt of Mankote sub-sector of Poonch district around 0045 hours, a senior army officer told PTI.

During the search of the area, they found a group of militants crossing into the Indian side and challenged them, he said, adding that the militants opened heavy fire on the troops, who retaliated resulting in a fierce gunbattle.

Two militants were killed in the gunbattle which ended early today, while the others managed to escape, the officier said.

Bodies of the two ultras along with their AK rifles were recovered from the spot.

The infiltration bid has been foiled, he said, adding that the troops were alert and vigilant along the border line in view of the reports that there would be an increase in infiltration attempts before the snowfall in the mountain ridges.


Infiltration bid foiled along LoC in Poonch, 2 ultras killed - India - DNA

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## SpArK

*Two militants killed in Poonch​*
Sun Nov 14 2010 11:32:11 GMT+0530 (India Standard Time) by ANI 


Poonch (J-K), Nov 14 (ANI): Two militants have been killed in the Mendhar area of Jammu and Kashmirs Poonch district, as they were trying to infiltrate into Indian territory.

Senior Army officials said troops of 5 Maratha Light Infantry (MLI) found suspicious movement between Anand and Gain forward defence posts in Sona Gali forest belt of Mankote sub-sector of Poonch district.

During a search operation, they found militants crossing challenged them. The militants opened fire and in the resulting gunbattle, two militants were killed.

The others managed to escape. (ANI)


Two militants killed in Poonch


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## Abu Zolfiqar

''get tough''




has this author been comatose for the past few decades or... .. .. ?

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## Novice09

Infinity said:


> India is a Democracy.
> So a boneless PM comment is unwarranted



So when did this PM have contested for a election and from which constituency... The only vote for him comes from 10 Janpath  for his loyalty

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## WHF

sam_every where said:


> getting tough on a wound, only makes it worse and worse, until eventually you have to cut that part of body to avoid spreading disease in other parts



wat is the total kashmiri muslim population??


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## dabong1

karan.1970 said:


> Non Binding. And the recent statements from Ban ki Moon indicate what the whole world including UN thinks of those resolutions.
> 
> No UN mediation in Kashmir until both parties ask: Ban Ki-moon - The Times of India



All United Nations General Assembly resolutions that are *not about matters internal to the UN (such as the structure of the UN or the creation of UN agencies) are inherently and explicitly (in the UN Charter) non-binding.*

You have been given this quote a few times so why do you keep asking the same dumb question again and again.
You got an answer so ask a question that has not been answered hundred times before.


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## dabong1

karan.1970 said:


> Do you really believe US goes by what UN mandates? The bogey of UN resolution is just that.. A bogey.. Do compare the civilian deaths in Kashmir and Balochistan (including the 100 in Kashmir in last 4 months) in last 5-7 years and you would know which area would a "GOOD MAN" in White House look at first..
> 
> So either stick to morality or to UN resolution. Flip flopping between the 2 niether does justice to the cause nor to the discussion..



Why dont we go for peroid of time say over 20 years and compare figures.......or do you want the time frame to cover days and weeks so it fits your agenda?


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## Ganga

The funeral north of Srinagar in Indian-administered Kashmir was just like those of countless others who have died violently over the past 20 years.
A Muslim killed in the insurgency was laid to rest in his ancestral graveyard in the village of Dub, north of Srinagar, on Tuesday, surrounded by thousands of mourners.
What made the ceremony unusual was that this was no militant who had died fighting the Indian army.
This was a Kashmiri who served with the Indian army and died fighting the militants.
Shabir Ahmed Malik was among eight Indian soldiers killed in a gun battle earlier this week with separatist militants in Kupwara.
*
Over the past two decades, hundreds of Kashmiris have died while fighting for India.
*
Mr Malik was a dedicated soldier of the Indian army
Among them are police officials and Ikhwanis, or "renegade" militants who have been persuaded or coerced - depending on who you believe - to abandon militancy and instead work for the Indian security forces. Most Ikhwanis were or are pariahs.
But Shabir, 21, joined the Indian army after passing his 12th class examination. He studied at the Sainik (army) School at Ganderbal.
Shabir's family and neighbours are proud of his army service.
"He has become a hero. He died an honourable death. I am so happy, although I am also pained at his separation," says Mohammad Yasin, a neighbour and friend of the dead man.
Mr Yasin says he still regrets not being able to join the Indian army with Shabir.
"I too went with him that day. But only three boys were selected. I was not taken because I was over age. I still feel so bad about it.
"Even now, I have a passionate desire to do something for *my countr*y like Shabir has done."
Mr Yasin says that the moving send-off given to Shabir has inspired many more youths in the village to join the army.
'Fulfilled'
"I am 28," says Showkat Ahmed. "I have never in my life seen such a funeral. Such death is pride-worthy."

Mr Malik's village showed huge pride in his army service
Such well-attended funerals are usually the preserve of militants killed by Indian troops.
Shabir's body was kept outside the "imambara" (Shia place of worship) and the villagers mourned beside it.
They beat their chests but unlike at the funerals of militants there was no slogan shouting.
The fact the villagers are minority Shia may in part explain their pro-India loyalties. Kashmir's insurgency over the past two decades has mostly been waged by Sunni militants.
Part of the Shia community has stayed away from the separatist campaign, although some leaders of the separatist movement do belong to the Shias.
The coffin was draped in India's tricolour before it was carried to the graveyard.
Shabir's brother, Ghiulam Mohammad, says: "I wanted him to become a doctor. But he had a passion for joining the army and was determined to complete his graduation so he could become an army officer.
"He was patriotic from his childhood. He wanted to do something for his country. His ambition has been fulfilled."
The villagers have been sharing the family's grief as well as its pride in what Shabir fought for.
"Every family here is bereaved. Every family is mourning," one villager said.

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Kashmiri Shia mourn India patriot

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## Ganga




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## Ammyy

Just one thing for brave souls 


*Taqat watan ki ham se hai 
Himmat watan ki ham se hai
Izzat watan ki ham se hain
Insaan ke ham rakhwale
Pehredar himalay ke ham
Jhonke hain toofan ke
Sun kar garaj hamari
Seene phat jaate chattaan ke
Aa ha haaaa haaa ha ha ha
Seena hai faulaad ka apna
Phoolon jaisa dil hai
Tan me vindhyachal ka bal hai
Man me Taj Mahal hai
Aa ha haaaa haaa ha ha ha
De kar apna khoon seenchte
Desh ki ham phulwari
Bansi se bandook banate
Ham wo prem pujari
Aa ha haaaa haaa ha ha ha
Aa kar ham ko kasam de gayi
Rakhi kisi behan ki
Denge apna sheesh na denge
Mitti magar watan ki
Aa ha haaaa haaa ha ha ha
Khatare me ho desh are to
Ladna sirf dharam hai
Marna hai kya cheej
Aadmi leta naya janam hai
Aa ha haaaa haaa ha ha ha
Ek jaan hai Ek pran hai
Sara desh hamara
Nadiya chal kar sabhi ruki
Par kabhi na Ganga dhara
Aa ha haaaa haaa ha ha ha
Taqat watan ki ham se hai
Himmat watan ki ham se hai
Izzat watan ki ham se hain
Insaan ke ham rakhwale*

*Jai Hind *

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## Ganga




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## Guli Danda

Ganga said:


>



That's the best form of death a person can receive.

One that everyone hopes to get (Body covered with our 'Tiranga')

I am Proud of those *Indians*

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## unicorn

very sad

Do not worry my Kashmiri brothers Pakistan 
..........................................................will save you.


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## Guli Danda

unicorn said:


> very sad
> 
> Do not worry my Kashmiri brothers Pakistan
> ..........................................................will save you.



Just like Pakistan has been saving them in the past?
And you know,what the result of the wars have been.

Present India is far ahead of Present Pakistan.
So Pakistan can try saving them,if it wants its own destruction.


Btw.
The Kashmiris being discussed here are the ones who laid their lives,for their mother India.

Proud of those *Kashmiris(Indians)!*

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## S_O_C_O_M

*Geelani vows to continue till end to Indian rule ​*





Sunday, 14 November 2010 15:04 

Srinagar, November 14, 2010: All Parties Hurriyat Conference Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, has vowed to continue "Quit Kashmir Movement" till end to India's illegal rule in Occupeid State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK).

Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who is under house arrest, in a statement issued in Srinagar, denounced the continued illegal detention of pro-freedom leaders and activists including Muhammad Ashraf Sehrai, Aasiya Andrabi, Ghulam Nabi Sumjhi, Masarrat Aalam Butt, Peer Saifullah and Firdous Ahmad Shah.

He said that Indias polices towards Kashmir are full of contradictions. On one hand, India claims about talks and peace, and on the other, the occupation forces have launched massive crackdowns and search operations besides unlawful detentions of Hurriyat leaders, he said.

Pointing out that the detained pro-freedom leaders and activists are being subjected to third degree torture in jails, he demanded immediate release of all the Kashmiri prisoners before Eid-ul-Azha.

Meanwhile, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, talking to a delegation of New Delhi-based civil rights group, said, the Kashmiris will continue peaceful agitation till India accepts Kashmir as an international dispute, withdraws its troops from the territory, repeals all draconian laws, release illegally detained pro-liberation leaders and activists and punishes the troopers involved in the killings of innocent Kashmiris.

APHC Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani had said that he apprised the delegation about ground situation in the OSJK and the crimes committed by armed forces of India to crush the Kashmiris just struggle. He announced to offer Eid-ul-Azha prayers at Dargah Hazratbal.

On the other hand, the spokesman of All Parties Hurriyat Conference, in a statement said, Geelanis residence has been turned into a prison for the past two-and-a-half months. He is not allowed to see anyone.

Terming the illegal house arrest of Syed Ali Shah Geelani as sheer act of state terrorism, the spokesman warned the authorities of serious repercussions if the veteran leader was not released from house arrest.

Indian armed forces personnels used force to quell pro-freedom demonstrations in Bandipore town. Scores of people, mainly youth, staged pro-freedom and Anti-India demonstrations when two of the three interlocutors appointed by India appeared at main chowk of Chitarnaar in the town. The protestors demanded withdrawal of Indian troops from Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK). The armed forces of India resorted to brute force and lobbed teargas shells to disperse the protesters.

Similar protests were also held in Baramulla town where clashes were witnessed between the demonstrators and the troops. Meanwhile, complete shutdown was observed in Sangrama area of Baramulla district to mourn the death of one Manzoor Ahmad Khan, 20, killed by Indian armed forces in Sopore on Friday. People from various areas of the district visited Sangrama and expressed solidarity with the bereaved family.

Indian armed forces, in their fresh act of state terrorism, martyred two innocent Kashmiri youth in Poonch district, today. 5 Maratha Light Infantry (MLI) of armed forces of India killed the youth during continued violent military operations at Krishna Ghati in Mankote area of the district. On the other hand, four persons were killed in separate road accidents in Poonch, Kathua, Budgam and Kangan areas of OSJK.

The annual Urs of 13th century Iranian saint, Mir Syed Ali Hamadani, was observed throughout OSJK with traditional devotion and fervour. Exalting functions were held in mosques and shrines on Saturday and the largest gathering took place at the Khanaqah-e-Mualla in Srinagar, which resounded with hymns and recitations throughout previous night.

A large number of the devotees were treated to a glimpse of saints relics after dawn prayers, and the ritual was held after every prayer through the day. Thousands of people braved a cold night to pay obeisance at the shrine and the number swelled to over 50,000 at noon prayers on Saturday.

In view of the Urs areas around Khanqah-e-Mualla, originally constructed by Sultan Sikander (1389-1413 AD) in the memory of Mir Hamdani who had after his arrival in Kashmir from Iran stayed there for meditation and preaching, witnessed an extraordinary rush of devotees through the day.

Meanwhile, All Parties Hurriyat Conference leader, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, in a statement issued in Srinagar, paid rich tributes to Syed Ali Hamadani, describing him as a great benefactor of Kashmiris in the truest sense. Mirwaiz said that the blossoming of faith, Islam and morality in the entire Kashmir was a miracle of the spiritual attainments of Syed Ali Hamadani, regarded as the forbearer of Islam in Kashmir.

In a message on the occasion, the Mirwaiz said that the saint had not only altered the history of the land but also its destiny. "Because of the formidable personality of Syed Hamadani, Kashmir not only got the priceless gift of Islam, but countless avenues of trade, commerce and crafts were opened that brought about a welcome revolution in the economic sphere," he added.

Mir Syed Ali bin Shahab-ud-Din Hamadani was an Iranian S?f?, a prominent scholar and reformer. Born on Monday, 12th Rajab 714 AH (1314 A.C) in Hamadan, Syed Ali died in 786 AH (1384 A.C) in Kunar and was buried in Khatlan in Tajikistan. He was very influential in spreading Islam in Kashmir and has had a major hand in shaping the culture of the Kashmir Valley.

Geelani vows to continue till end to Indian rule


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Anguish of Kashmiri People: Are we Listening? ​*

Written by Dr. Ram Puniyani 
Friday, 12 November 2010 18:57 

Statement of Arundhati Roy (Nov 2010), that Kashmir is not a part of India, did raise more than storm in a tea cup. The BJP demanded that court case should be initiated against her, BJP affiliate Mahila Morcha vandalized her house in Delhi and BJPs storm troopers, Bajarang Dal, threatened her in various ways. This statement came as a shock to many and talk of arresting her under the charge of sedition was in the air for some time. One knows that Kashmir has become a raw nerve in the emotional make up of the large section of people for various reasons. 

There may be lot of differences with Roy on the solution of Kashmir problem, but two points need to be noted and conceded. Number one, Kashmir never merged with India as it only acceded with the proviso of total autonomy except in the matters of defense, communication, currency and external affairs. And two that the statement of Roy and her other writings and speeches on the issue of Kashmir show the pain and anguish of Kashmiri people as a whole.

The attacks and criticism of Roy are based on the ignorance about the history of accession of Kashmir to India. The ultra nationalists groups, especially the ones who are followers of the ideology of Religion based nationalism, and a thinking of a section of people is guided by a sort of patriotism, blinded by emotion. This patriotism wants to put the problems of people under the carpet.

How did Kashmir Accede to India? One does remember that there were many princely states at the time of Independence. Most of these states were merged into India barring the ones of Junagadh, Hyderabad and Kashmir. The mandate to princes was that they are free to merge with either India or Pakistan but while taking such a decision they should keep the feelings of there subjects and consider their geographical location. The princes of these three states had their own calculations in not merging in to India.

Junagadh Nawab wanted to merge with Pakistan. Nizam Hyderabad wanted to remain independent or at worse merge with Pakistan. Pakistan offered more powers to the princes. Geographically also merger of Junagadh and Hyderabad was a bit out of the place their borders were not contiguous with border of Pakistan, and the composition of population of the percentage of Hindu population in these states was overwhelming. India closed the chapter in these states by military means.

Kashmir was uniquely located in an area which had proximity to Pakistan and India both, it had large communication with Pakistan and 80% of its population was Muslim, fitting well into the scheme of Two nation theory of communalists.

Maharaja Harisingh refused to merge with either country. Pakistani army disguised as tribal invaded Kashmir. The difference in Kashmir was the presence of movement of National Conference which was very secular and its leader Sheikh Abdullah recognized the comparatively stronger presence of feudal sections in Pakistan ruling classes. Maharaja Harisingh when faced with the aggression left for Jammu for his safety and sent his emissary to Delhi to request India to send army to dispel the aggression from Pakistan soil. Indian Government wanted to have an agreement before sending the army.

Its here that treaty of accession (not merger) was devised giving full autonomy to Kashmir except in the matters of defense, communication, currency and external affairs. By the time Indian army began its work, 1/3 Kashmir was already occupied by the Pakistan army. Ceasefire followed and later Indian part of Kashmir went on to have elections, Sheikh Abdullah becoming its first Prime Minister (not Chief Minister).

To understand the plight of Kashmiris, Pundits included, the issues one needs to focus are, as to how the US had designs to dominate this area through the proxy of Pakistan, were operating all through. This was the major determining factor for things which happened in this region. Kashmir was Central to US anti Communist strategies- Russia on one side China on the other.

US kept supporting Pakistan through and through to keep its presence in the area and to keep the issue on the boil. On this side of the border the communal elements were assertive and demanded for full merger of Kashmir into India. Shyama Prasad Mukherjee, the founder of Bhartiya Jansangh, the previous avatar of BJP was very vociferous in demanding this total merger.

Shiekh Abdullahs trust in Indian republics secular values was shaken with the murder of Mahatma Gandhi. Sheikh had great faith in the secularism of India, in Gandhi and Nehru. After Gandhi murder and the pressure built by communalists to forcibly merge Kashmir into India further disturbed Sheikh Abdullah. He started introspecting whether it was a mistake to accede to India. Nehru at this point of time was saying that what is important is to win over the hearts of Kashmiris, while ultra nationalists, pseudo nationalists, wanted to forcible merge Kashmir into India. Sheikh Abdullah started talking to US ambassador and also with China on the other. Under pressure of Nehru got Sheikh Abdullah arrested and put him behind bars, starting the process of alienation of Kashmiri people at large.

Later Pakistan backed by US played its own role in encouraging the dissident sections and by helping them in all the ways. The problem really got worse due to the entry of Al Qaeda in the decades of 1980s. With their warped training of distorted version of Jihad and Kafir, in the Madrassas set up by US, to train Al Qaeda, the situation got communalized. It worsened the situation by communalizing the issue and by playing politics in the name of Islam.

Indian army did the rest. Starting from trying to curb militancy, it entrenched itself in to the civilian life of Kashmir. So many incidents of killings of innocents at the hands of army have taken place. Brutality of army is disguised as defense of Nation. Army lives with the dictum that power flows through the barrel of the gun.

This dictum is glaringly obvious when army stays there for long enough time in a civilian area. This army occupation acts as a trigger to further alienate the people of the region. Victims of armys highhandedness are the innocents of the region, women and children suffering the worst ignominies. The process of violation of civic norms and disruption of civic life has led to a situation where the average helpless person vents his anger by throwing the stones.

Kashmir is a vexed issue defying easy solution due multiple interested parties. US backed Pakistan army, the intense pain and suffering of people of Kashmir at the hands of militants and army, both. There is a need to respect the expression of pain and anguish of Kashmiri people. Dialogue within and outside, reduction of armys presence, deepening democracy and understanding the complex logic of the area is what could sooth the wounded psyche of Kashmir.

The aggressive reaction of the type manifested by politics wearing the clothes of religion will add salt to the wounds and worsen the problem rather than contributing anything to its resolution. Layers of democracy, within the state need to be strived for and peoples voices of dissent need to be listened carefully rather than insulted and blindly opposed without understanding the logic of their statements and suffering of the people of Kashmir.

Editor's Note:

Dr. Ram Puniyani is India based Human Rights activists, a prefessor and a well known supporter of Indian Secularism.

Anguish of Kashmiri People: are we listening?


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## Guli Danda

Just a sing website source.
And that too not credible.
There are a lot of fake news makers around.

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## karan.1970

dabong1 said:


> Why dont we go for peroid of time say over 20 years and compare figures.......or do you want the time frame to cover days and weeks so it fits your agenda?



You cant base present decisions on what happened 50 years back. Like it or not, recency has its effect on policy decisions..


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## karan.1970

sam_every where said:


> getting tough on a wound, only makes it worse and worse, until eventually you have to cut that part of body to avoid spreading disease in other parts



Amputation is passe.. Laser cauterization does the job pretty well these days..


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## CONNAN

The Hindu : News / National : India tells China: Kashmir is to us what Tibet, Taiwan are to you


Drawing a dramatic parallel between the territorial red lines of both countries, India on Sunday told China that just as New Delhi had been sensitive to its concerns over the Tibet Autonomous Region and Taiwan, Beijing too should be mindful of Indian sensitivities on Jammu and Kashmir.

The comparison  which is intended to drive home the depth of Indian concerns over recent Chinese attempts to question the country's sovereignty in Kashmir  was made by External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna in his meeting with China's Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi on the sidelines of the Russia-India-China trilateral meeting here.

This is the first time India has drawn this parallel directly, Indian officials told The Hindu.

Briefing reporters about the meeting, Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao said the two Ministers reviewed the state of bilateral relations, which Mr. Yang described as being in very good shape. As India-China relations grew, Mr. Krishna said, there was a need for both sides to be sensitive to each other's core concerns. In that context, said Ms. Rao, [the External Affairs Minister] spoke of Jammu and Kashmir and expressed the hope that China would be sensitive to J&K just as we have been to the Tibet Autonomous Region and Taiwan.

According to Ms. Rao, Mr. Yang said in response that China always believed the problem of Jammu and Kashmir could only be resolved through dialogue and negotiations between India and Pakistan and that there has been no change in its policy.

The Chinese Minister also said Beijing wanted to expand the political content of the relationship between the two countries. He said both countries should see each other's growth as an opportunity and not a challenge.

India has been objecting to the Chinese policy of issuing stapled' visas to Kashmiri-domicile Indian citizens. New Delhi suspended defence exchanges with Beijing in August after an Indian general from Kashmir was denied a proper visa to travel to China on an official visit.

On the question of a permanent seat for India on a reformed UN Security Council  a question Mr. Krishna raised in a general way without reference to President Barack Obama's recent announcement  Mr. Yang said he acknowledged there had been a fundamental change in the international situation and that consultations were needed on the question of UN reform. He added that China was willing to continue and increase its consultations with India and others on this question, a stand Ms. Rao described as incrementally speaking, a positive development.

But she quickly added: To say that they have given full-scale endorsement would be inaccurate.

Also on Sunday, Mr. Krishna held bilateral talks with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and attended a working dinner of the RIC trilateral.

Ms. Rao said Mr. Lavrov strongly supported India's prospective membership in the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation and urged the country to work closely together with Russia and others for promoting security and cooperation across the Asia-Pacific region.

The RIC Foreign Ministers also strongly endorsed the idea of a trilateral discussion on the situation in Afghanistan and agreed that the BRIC forum, which links the three with Brazil, be expanded to include South Africa by the time of the next summit.

Also present at Mr. Krishna's meeting with the Chinese Foreign Minister was Duan Yunlin, vice governor of Hubei province. Mr. Duan spoke of Hubei's economic relations with India and described his own involvement in promoting business links with Bangalore and Andhra Pradesh. Mr. Krishna said he hoped India-China bilateral trade would cross the target of $ 60 billion but urged the Chinese side to do more to ensure a better balance.

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## oct605032048

interesting indeed. Indian has no say in Xizang(except that puppy-in-exile) or Taiwan, but China dose have an affection of the balance of Kashmir.

This is my point here, the dispute should be between India and Pakistan, and China should carefully look after the regional peace and balance. If India would like to talk about dispute areas between China and India, we should talk of course; but if they want method other than peaceful ones, it should be equally welcomed.


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## GodlessBastard

> Kashmir is to us what Tibet, Taiwan are to you



This is probably the best way to get the point across to China about Kashmir's significance to India. For the sake of future Sino-Indian relations, I hope both countries understand what is important to them.


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## Hulk

I think we are moving in right direction, there are always some hickup's. I aways draw parallel between India-US relationship in the past, they were more titled to Pakistan at one point of time, cannot say now. I am positive something similar can be done on China's front, if not of same scale. In the coming years China will be more closer to India and will try to be more neutral along the lines of US.


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## StingRoy

I would credit this to SM Krishna  Brilliant move.

As rightly said in the article 


> The Chinese Minister also said Beijing wanted to expand the political content of the relationship between the two countries. &#8220;He said both countries should see each other's growth as an opportunity and not a challenge.&#8221;


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## misterme2

therecanonlybeone said:


> half the hindu army 500 hundred thousend ocupying for over 50 years and you still havnt had any success,keep dreaming,idependence is there right ,freedom for the brave



Believe if this INDIAN army not HINDu reacted the way most islamic countries like blah blah act then , the population would've been wiped out and converted to buddhists. HaHa!

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## Hulk

China is the last strong support for Pakistan and if we manage to make it neutral Kashmir dreams will be history for them, along with some other dreams. So good job Krishna, we should now work with full force on this front.


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## Chinese-Dragon

GodlessBastard said:


> For the sake of future Sino-Indian relations, I hope both countries understand what is important to them.



Sino-Indian relations are certainly very important.  I'd like to clarify though, that China currently controls around 20&#37; of Kashmir region (uninhabited), so we have a stake in this too.


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## SMC

indianrabbit said:


> China is the last strong support for Pakistan and if we manage to make it neutral Kashmir dreams will be history for them, along with some other dreams. So good job Krishna, we should now work with full force on this front.



Considering the directions in which Pakistan China relations are heading, it's quite clear who's the one having dreams.

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## flameboard

Then India is saying its unfair and that Kashmiris don't want ot be a part of it. It recognizes this this a a self identified loss for India.


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## BATMAN

connanxlrc1000 said:


> The Hindu : News / National : India tells China: Kashmir is to us what Tibet, Taiwan are to you
> 
> 
> Drawing a dramatic parallel between the territorial red lines of both countries, India on Sunday told China that just as New Delhi had been sensitive to its concerns over the Tibet Autonomous Region and Taiwan, Beijing too should be mindful of Indian sensitivities on Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> The comparison  which is intended to drive home the depth of Indian concerns over recent Chinese attempts to question the country's sovereignty in Kashmir  was made by External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna in his meeting with China's Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi on the sidelines of the Russia-India-China trilateral meeting here.
> 
> This is the first time India has drawn this parallel directly, Indian officials told The Hindu.
> 
> Briefing reporters about the meeting, Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao said the two Ministers reviewed the state of bilateral relations, which Mr. Yang described as being in very good shape. As India-China relations grew, Mr. Krishna said, there was a need for both sides to be sensitive to each other's core concerns. In that context, said Ms. Rao, [the External Affairs Minister] spoke of Jammu and Kashmir and expressed the hope that China would be sensitive to J&K just as we have been to the Tibet Autonomous Region and Taiwan.
> 
> According to Ms. Rao, Mr. Yang said in response that China always believed the problem of Jammu and Kashmir could only be resolved through dialogue and negotiations between India and Pakistan and that there has been no change in its policy.
> 
> The Chinese Minister also said Beijing wanted to expand the political content of the relationship between the two countries. He said both countries should see each other's growth as an opportunity and not a challenge.
> 
> India has been objecting to the Chinese policy of issuing stapled' visas to Kashmiri-domicile Indian citizens. New Delhi suspended defence exchanges with Beijing in August after an Indian general from Kashmir was denied a proper visa to travel to China on an official visit.
> 
> On the question of a permanent seat for India on a reformed UN Security Council  a question Mr. Krishna raised in a general way without reference to President Barack Obama's recent announcement  Mr. Yang said he acknowledged there had been a fundamental change in the international situation and that consultations were needed on the question of UN reform. He added that China was willing to continue and increase its consultations with India and others on this question, a stand Ms. Rao described as incrementally speaking, a positive development.
> 
> But she quickly added: To say that they have given full-scale endorsement would be inaccurate.
> 
> Also on Sunday, Mr. Krishna held bilateral talks with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and attended a working dinner of the RIC trilateral.
> 
> Ms. Rao said Mr. Lavrov strongly supported India's prospective membership in the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation and urged the country to work closely together with Russia and others for promoting security and cooperation across the Asia-Pacific region.
> 
> The RIC Foreign Ministers also strongly endorsed the idea of a trilateral discussion on the situation in Afghanistan and agreed that the BRIC forum, which links the three with Brazil, be expanded to include South Africa by the time of the next summit.
> 
> Also present at Mr. Krishna's meeting with the Chinese Foreign Minister was Duan Yunlin, vice governor of Hubei province. Mr. Duan spoke of Hubei's economic relations with India and described his own involvement in promoting business links with Bangalore and Andhra Pradesh. Mr. Krishna said he hoped India-China bilateral trade would cross the target of $ 60 billion but urged the Chinese side to do more to ensure a better balance.



Who asked for it?
Why does Krishna answering his own questions or responding to Chinese remarks to US diplomat?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...8613-china-tells-u-s-pakistan-our-israel.html

Does this not suggest that US has leverage over India.


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## deckingraj

*Jammu and Kashmir has been removed from the United Nations list of unresolved disputes, in a setback to Pakistan which has been asking the world body to intervene on the issue.*

The omission of Jammu and Kashmir from the list of disputes under the observation of the *Security Council was noticed by Pakistan, whose envoy has filed a protest.*

&#8220;The Jammu and Kashmir dispute was not mentioned in the context of unresolved long-running situations,&#8221; Pakistan's acting envoy to the U.N. Amjad Hussain B Sial said. *&#8220;We understand this was an inadvertent omission, as Jammu and Kashmir is one of the oldest disputes on the agenda of the Security Council,&#8221;* he said, speaking at the General Assembly session, which was discussing the functioning and reform of the Security Council.

It was organised by the U.K., which holds the presidency of the Security Council this month.

Pakistan has been asking the U.N. to intervene to help resolve the issue, but India has always maintained that the dispute has to be resolved bilaterally. 

The Hindu : News / National : Jammu and Kashmir out of U.N. list of disputes

***************************************************

though this news is couple of hours old yet i don't find similar thread anywhere....lets c how members will react to it.... i think what Pakistan envoy is saying is correct, this would be an inadvertent mistake, no???

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

A big diplomatic victory for India and a setback for UK-Pakistan ties........or like the Pakistani diplomat said _inadvertent_, i"ll side with the latter for now.

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## karan.1970

Ouch !...

If this is indeed true, then this thread will be the most busy one tomorrow.. Unless closed by the mods...

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## Jagganaut

This thread is gonna be a war I can tell you that

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## Water Car Engineer

Prepare for a battle. Its going to be a killing field in this thread.

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## Ras

Must be a mistake..there is no statute of limitations on UN resolutions.


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## karan.1970

Freudian slip may be

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## StingRoy

Who is managing the IT for the UN?


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## CONNAN

BATMAN said:


> Who asked for it?
> Why does Krishna answering his own questions or responding to Chinese remarks to US diplomat?
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...8613-china-tells-u-s-pakistan-our-israel.html
> 
> Does this not suggest that US has leverage over India.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/80549-jammu-kashmir-out-u-n-list-disputes.html


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## Hulk

What does this image mean?


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## JanjaWeed

hmm.. din't make any difference by being in the list for all this while!! why take it off now?? could this be a smart move to clear those land mines one by one for india to acquire permanent seat in UNSC??

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## DesiGuy

*Jammu and Kashmir removed from list of disputes under UN*

Jammu and Kashmir removed from list of disputes under UN, IBN Live News


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## Kompromat

Post any International source please.


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## BATMAN

So where is the border than?
What new map is going to show?

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## BATMAN

Good it expose UN who was sitting on it from long time.
It is US who is paving way for India's membership.
India and US seems to be in hurry and want to get all done during while Zardari is around.


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## Jagganaut

BATMAN said:


> So where is the border than?
> What new map is going to show?



I'm guessing it's gonna stay as status quo

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## JanjaWeed

Black Blood said:


> Post any International source please.



i don't think you will find any international source on this as this was never a serious issue for the outside world. had this been, the issue wouldn't have stayed in the back burner for all this while. since it's coming from 'the hindu', one has to say that the source is pretty much credible, as these guys don't jump the gun like most of the other indian news outlets do!!

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## Kompromat

StreetHawk said:


> i don't think you will find any international source on this as this was never a serious issue for the outside world. had this been, the issue wouldn't have stayed in the back burner for all this while. since it's coming from 'the hindu', one has to say that the source is pretty much credible, as these guys don't jump the gun like most of the other indian news outlets do!!



J&K is an issue which can result in Billions of deaths in this region - you say its not important - quite naive.


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## DesiGuy

black blood meant millon.

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## JanjaWeed

Black Blood said:


> J&K is an issue which can result in Billions of deaths in this region - you say its not important - quite naive.



ofcourse it's an important issue, for me & you!! i mean for pakistan and india. is it as important for the outside world?? if it so.. what have they done about it for the past 60 odd years?? exactly!! that's what i was trying to say!!!

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## BATMAN

Why is Pakistan being ruled by Zardari or Musharraf is of international importance? while Kashmir is not
Newly appointed Indian as head of common wealth cancel Pakistan's membership in support of Zardari.


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## devd

Not a surprise, Only for Pakistan it was an issue except that no one care about it. It was/is pretty obvious that in UN no one care what Pakistan says. India today holds good support in UN. 

Weather its right or not still remain a big question. But Good for India they are getting all wishes fulfilled. I personally like Indian global politic stand.

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## Jagganaut

Black Blood said:


> J&K is an issue which can result in Billions of deaths in this region - you say its not important - quite naive.



Population of J&K (INDIA) 10,143,700

Population of pak administered Kashmir gilgit 970,347 + azad kashmir2,972,501

Where did you get billions? 

No other sources yet from international news
Jammu and Kashmir removed from list of disputes under UN -  International News ? News ? MSN India


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Black Blood said:


> J&K is an issue which can result in *Billions* of deaths in this region - you say its not important - quite naive.



This region South Asia has a population less than 2 billion and also its not important as there is no oil,valuable natural resources there for the West or anyone to bother.

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## CONNAN

BATMAN said:


> So where is the border than?
> What new map is going to show?



the borders will be as it was in the past its just no more an international issue rather local

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## Kambojaric

Bombensturm said:


> This region South Asia has a population less than 2 billion and also its not important as there is no oil,valuable natural resources there for the West or anyone to bother.



I think what he means is that this dispute could lead to an eventual nuclear war. Something that would *definitely* bother the international community.

As for Indias take on this, doesnt India claim the whole of Azad Kashmir + Gilgit Baltistan as well as Chiniese Kashmir. Hence isnt this a setback for India as well?


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## devd

I guess, now for UN P seat noone can mediate with Kashmir issue. Its legally resolved/ nondisputed for UN. India play a big game here. I like it. 

Thanks to UK they deserve $$ business from India.

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## CONNAN

Bamxa said:


> I think what he means is that this dispute could lead to an eventual nuclear war. Something that would *definitely* bother the international community.
> 
> As for Indias take on this, doesnt India claim the whole of Azad Kashmir + Gilgit Baltistan as well as Chiniese Kashmir. Hence isnt this a setback for India as well?



considering the article its a win were this issue wont be a thorn in the international level but considering your statement regarding Azad Kashmir + Gilgit Baltistan as well as Chinese Kashmir its a creidable point u made


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## JanjaWeed

Bamxa said:


> I think what he means is that this dispute could lead to an eventual nuclear war. Something that would *definitely* bother the international community.
> 
> As for Indias take on this, doesnt India claim the whole of Azad Kashmir + Gilgit Baltistan as well as Chiniese Kashmir. Hence isnt this a setback for India as well?



i don't think this view of your's is accurate. india has always been happy with the status quo & stated so publicly. so this move by the UN serves india's purpose well.


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## deckingraj

Bamxa said:


> I think what he means is that this dispute could lead to an eventual nuclear war. Something that would *definitely* bother the international community.
> *
> As for Indias take on this, doesnt India claim the whole of Azad Kashmir + Gilgit Baltistan as well as Chiniese Kashmir. Hence isnt this a setback for India as well?*



Good point, however if you think a little more about it then removal from UN does not mean removal of stake. We never wanted UN to intervene in this conflict because our official stand is that it is a billateral dispute, however Pak always wanted to internationalize the issue...In other words they want UN to intervene...So with this context i don't see any loss for India...what do you think??

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## Creder

The year Pakistan got engaged with India, we saw considerable improvement on ground

Advocating a role for Pakistan in finding an amicable solution to the Kashmir problem, academician Radha Kumar, one of the three interlocutors on Kashmir, on Sunday stressed the need for working towards credibility of the dialogue process.

Before winding up the second visit to Kashmir and Ladakh, Professor Kumar told journalists that dialogue was important to arrive at a consensus, though there were varied perceptions in Ladakh and Kashmir.

Emphasising that Pakistan's role could not be wished away, she said it was a necessity to engage Pakistan in finding a permanent solution to the problem.

The year Pakistan got engaged with India, we saw considerable improvement on ground. We were close to the Kashmir solution. We would like to see the dialogue process restart from the point it was left off. Unfortunately, the Pakistan government has shown disinclination to resume the dialogue from where they had left off. I hope they will change their position, she said.

She was accompanied by another interlocutor M.M. Ansari.

Expressing concern over the media's negative approach, Professor Kumar said it had a larger role to play in maintaining the credibility of the dialogue process. Our biggest challenge is to demonstrate the credibility of the process.

She hoped that a framework for the Kashmir settlement would be possible within the next nine months. As we said earlier, we are open to a dialogue with all shades of opinions, and that is what we have been doing so far.

Professor Kumar said the interlocutors had submitted the report of their first visit to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Home Minister P. Chidambaram and Chief Minister Omar Abdullah.

Our priority is to see what could be the political settlement of the Kashmir dispute. There is universal agreement that everyone wants political settlement of the issue. And it would be better to achieve it sooner than later.

She stressed that the solution to the Kashmir problem could not be achieved without making changes on the ground. Without elaborating, she said it was must to release political detainees.

The Hindu : News : Pakistan must be engaged, says Kashmir interlocutor


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## jha

BATMAN said:


> Good it expose UN who was sitting on it from long time.
> It is US who is paving way for India's membership.
> *India and US seems to be in hurry and want to get all done during while Zardari is around*.



So, you figured it out... 
We still have 2-3 years to do so...


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## genmirajborgza786

found this seems related to the news not sure though

Pakistan says UNSC needs to recalibrate its efforts in conflict prevention 
Submitted 1 day 
15 hrs ago 
Pakistan expressing concern over non- mentioning of Kashmir dispute in the context of unresolved long-running situations in the Councils Report to the General Assembly has said that United Nations Security Council needs to recalibrate its efforts in conflict prevention and take more recourse to pacific settlement of disputes
Ambassador Amjad Hussain B. Sial Acting Permanent Representative of Pakistan to the United Nations expressed these views in the Joint Debate of the General Assembly on Question of Equitable Representation and Increase in the Membership of the Security Council and Related Matter
Sial conveying his concern over non- mentioning of Kashmir dispute in the context of unresolved long-running situations in the Councils Report to the General Assembly said the Council, needs to recalibrate its efforts in conflict prevention and take more recourse to pacific settlement of disputes under chapter six (VI) of the UN Charter.
This is particularly important in cases of inter-state conflicts. Major unresolved issues, including the issue of Jammu and Kashmir are on the agenda of the Security Council, awaiting settlement for a long time. Even in the case of issues that are routinely discussed --- like the Palestine issue, the Council seems to have abdicated its role to individual countries or informal groupings. It needs to redress this to effectively discharge its responsibilities of maintaining international peace and security, he said.
He said the second dimension is assessment of Security Councils work and transparency. Unfortunately, in this area, the annual report has little information or analysis, particularly with regard to its decision-making processes. It is a widely-held view that decisions evolve mostly in closed door sessions, if not behind the scenes by a few major players. Such decisions, accordingly, lack transparency and inclusiveness. Similarly, the Council should fulfill the Charter requirement of submitting Special Report to the GA.
The openness and transparency of the Security Council is related, to a large extent, with improvement in its working methods. Improving the working methods of the Security Council and enhancing its transparency and accountability are the basic underlying objectives of the ongoing reform process.
Regarding the reform of the Security Council he said Pakistan believes that real progress in the reform process can be achieved by flexibility and compromise.
The UfCs proposal allows variable arrangements and different possibilities and options, thereby providing relevance to regional representation as well as representation of small states. This formula reflects complex global political configuration, which essentially imply presence of few large states; a number of medium sized States; a majority of smaller States; and the emergence of regional organizations which are playing important roles in international and regional peace and security.
Our proposal also takes into account the concept of equitable geographic distribution, as envisaged in Article 23 of the Charter. This concept of equitable geographic distribution would make little sense if a seat allocated to a region were to be occupied permanently by one country. That is why we respect and understand Africas position as reflected in Ezulwini Consensus., he said.
Africas just demand for permanent presence in the Council is for the entire region and is, therefore, different from those who seek a seat for themselves. Similarly, we support the position of the Organization of Islamic Conference demanding adequate representation of Muslim Ummah in the Security Council. 

Pakistan says UNSC needs to recalibrate its efforts in conflict prevention | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

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## Water Car Engineer

Man, if this is true.... Its a big blow to Pakistan's rib.


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## FreekiN

only indian sources so far


dont get your hopes up, indian media loves to lie


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## barcelona

FreekiN said:


> only indian sources so far
> 
> 
> dont get your hopes up, indian media loves to lie



If the source is the Hindu rest assured of the authenticity of this newspaper one of the most respected newspaper in India n world


The Times, London listed The Hindu as one of the world's ten best newspapers in 1965. Discussing each of its choices in separate articles, The Times wrote:
	The Hindu takes the general seriousness to lengths of severity... The Hindu which is published in Madras, is the only newspaper which in spite of being published only in a provincial capital is regularly and attentively read in Delhi. It is read not only as a distant and authoritative voice on national affairs but as an expression of the most liberaland least provincialsouthern attitudes... Its Delhi Bureau gives it outstanding political and economic dispatches and it carries regular and frequent reports from all state capitals, so giving more news from states, other than its own, than most newspapers in India... It might fairly be described as a national voice with a southern accent. The Hindu can claim to be the most respected paper in India.[11]	
In 1968, the American Newspaper Publishers' Association awarded The Hindu its World Press Achievement Award. An extract from the citation reads:
	Throughout nearly a century of its publication The Hindu has exerted wide influence not only in Madras but throughout India. Conservative in both tone and appearance, it has wide appeal to the English-speaking segment of the population and wide readership among government officials and business leaders... The Hindu has provided its readers a broad and balanced news coverage, enterprising reporting and a sober and thoughtful comment... [It] has provided its country a model of journalistic excellence... [It] has fought for a greater measure of humanity for India and its people... [and] has not confined itself to a narrow chauvinism. Its Correspondents stationed in the major capitals of the world furnish The Hindu with world-wide news coverage... For its championing of reason over emotion, for its dedication to principle even in the face of criticism and popular disapproval, for its confidence in the future, it has earned the respect of its community, its country, and the world.[11]

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## barcelona

In fact its the most pro china newspaper n its magzine Frontline in fact critsised Nehru on aksai chin n blamed him for 62 conflict. It had article on progress made by Tibet under china

It was the only publishing house which has critisised Indo US stretigic relations callin America imperiealistic power


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## devd

FreekiN said:


> only indian sources so far
> 
> 
> dont get your hopes up, indian media loves to lie



Hard to digest the reality for Pakistan people. . I guess news will come on everywhere soon. But for me its not a news its obvious for everyone that UN dont care about Kashmir.


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## Pagla Dashu

Clerical error, but surely the symbolism is not lost on our Western neighbour - that Kashmir is so low in priority to UN or anybody else that an error such as this can happen at UN, of all places, and remains undetected.

On another note, if anything gets on UN list of things, it is really difficult to get it removed. Nataji Subhash Bose is still on the list of war (WW 2) criminals.


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## Pagla Dashu

Bamxa said:


> As for Indias take on this, doesnt India claim the whole of Azad Kashmir + Gilgit Baltistan as well as Chiniese Kashmir. Hence isnt this a setback for India as well?


Actually it is. When the first time it was proposed that LoC (then CFL) be turned into IB, way back in mid 50's, Nehru had to withstand flak from the opposition for giving up India's legitimate claim on Kashmir to the west of CFL (now LoC).

This actually illustrates India's pragmatism. We know, we won't get it back. We, barring a few loonies, therefore stopped losing sleep on it, while Pakistan continues to chase the chimera that is India administered Kashmir.


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## Dance

I cant find any other sources besides indian ones and we all know how "reliable" they are


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## oct605032048

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Sino-Indian relations are certainly very important.  I'd like to clarify though, that China currently controls around 20% of Kashmir territory (uninhabited), so we have a stake in this too.



No we do not occupying any lands of Kashmir, the Chinese Sovereign Territory that Indian expansionists refers as Aksai Chin is not part of Kashmir.

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## huzihaidao12

You always have an idea, but to stop it, it can not happen. China and Pakistan's cooperation is in our own needs, not to go against India. So even if the development of relations between China and India, it will not affect the relationship between China and Pakistan. Any angle, I hope India and Pakistan relations can develop, stop an exclusive co-operation thinking.


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## Chinese-Dragon

oct605032048 said:


> No we do not occupying any lands of Kashmir, the Chinese Sovereign Territory that Indian expansionists refers as Aksai Chin is not part of Kashmir.



OK you can put it like that. To reiterate, China controls around 20&#37; of the *disputed territory* in the Kashmir region. The disputed area under Chinese control is uninhabited.


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## huzihaidao12

Well, India suggested china to set up a Kashmir exile government in China. I agree that.


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## Ganguly

Duplicate: Please remove..Posted twice


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## third eye

Chinese-Dragon said:


> OK you can put it like that. To reiterate, China controls around 20% of the *disputed territory* in the Kashmir region. The disputed area under Chinese control is uninhabited.



This further underscores the point that the only ' resolution' that can be on J&K is the convert the LC to an IB.


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## sms

If this news is true, so J&K is not a disputed territory any more at international level. 
So we can call Kashmiri Movement in Indian administered Kashmir a terrorism as it's called in NWPF? I'm bit curious to know what excuse all of our PDF friends will use to justify terror in valley?

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## Chinese-Dragon

third eye said:


> This further underscores the point that the only ' resolution' that can be on J&K is the convert the LC to an IB.



I agree with this approach. 

We should turn the current status quo into permanent borders. China gets to keep Aksai chin, India gets to keep J&K, Pakistan gets to keep AK and GB.


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## CardSharp

Chinese-Dragon said:


> OK you can put it like that. To reiterate, China controls around 20% of the *disputed territory* in the Kashmir region. The disputed area under Chinese control is uninhabited.



Aksai Chin was a claim cooked up for Nehru by Indian historians associated with him. It was to serve as a bargaining chip for settlement in the east. No one else believed in it and the Indian army didn't want to occupy it. 

It was an uninhabitable, undefendable piece of barren waste that Indians had no interest until they became interested in territory in the east.


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## Chinese-Dragon

CardSharp said:


> Aksai Chin was a claim cooked up for Nehru by Indian historians associated with him. It was to serve as a bargaining chip for settlement in the east. No one else believed in it and the Indian army didn't want to occupy it.
> 
> It was an uninhabitable, undefendable piece of barren waste that Indians had no interest until they became interested in territory in the east.



Thanks for the info.  Question, why then is it still a disputed territory today? Does it serve simply as a political bargaining chip?


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## oct605032048

Chinese-Dragon said:


> OK you can put it like that. To reiterate, China controls around 20% of the *disputed territory* in the Kashmir region. The disputed area under Chinese control is uninhabited.



I've totally no idea what are you talking about. 
As the Indian friends just said, Kashmir is off the UN disputed area list. If Kashmir is off the list, how come an innocent third country's land that shares not a single meter of boundary with Indian controlled Kashmir becomes a 'disputed area' ?


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## third eye

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I agree with this approach.
> 
> We should turn the current status quo into permanent borders. China gets to keep Aksai chin, India gets to keep J&K, Pakistan gets to keep AK and GB.



Ideally, it ought not to have happened but considering that this is how it has been since 47 / 62 one needs to accept realities and reconcile ourselves to our geography.

We today are at the threshold of great development - something that we have not seen for centuries.For once the Asians are in the driving seat and accelerating. We need to get real and realise our probs are only benefiting the western arms industry and that we are providing jobs in the wrong industries in the west.

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## Chinese-Dragon

oct605032048 said:


> I've totally no idea what are you talking about.
> As the Indian friends just said, Kashmir is off the UN disputed area list. If Kashmir is off the list, how come an innocent third country's land that shares not a single meter of boundary with Indian controlled Kashmir becomes a 'disputed area' ?



Because India still claims Aksai chin. So by that definition, it is a "disputed area".


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## huzihaidao12

China's position on Kashmir is a low-key support for Pakistan, that is, China does not encourage the use of force to resolve Kashmir, hope that a peaceful solution, but if Pakistan is attacked, it would be a support, which is a low-key support.

"The West Wing" is actually a good description.


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## StingRoy

Chinese-Dragon said:


> We should turn the current status quo into permanent borders. China gets to keep Aksai chin, India gets to keep J&K, Pakistan gets to keep AK and GB.


If only the fanatics were convinced by this settlement.... life would be so much better. phew... 
Most Indians would agree to this settlement.. but I doubt there are many takers in Pakistan.

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## CardSharp

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Thanks for the info.  Question, why then is it still a disputed territory today? Does it serve simply as a political bargaining chip?



I dunno, probably because some people are still complaining and everyone else is in love with the idea China is the big bad wolf. 

Most serious scholarship on Sino-Indian relationship tend not to mention Aksai Chin. Which ironically translates as "the white sands of China"

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## Vimana1

This must have been a undercover deal struck when Obama was in town, only the US has the strings to pull this off.

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## Chinese-Dragon

dezi said:


> If only the fanatics were convinced by this settlement.... life would be so much better. phew...



It would be a lot easier if all of us just agreed to keep the territory we currently control in that region.

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## Rumpelstilskin

Vimana1 said:


> Is this confirmed news? in any western media reports



Here you go with the United nations News

United Nations News

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## StingRoy

At this point in time, the only solution to easily settle down on is maintaining status quo because any change in drawing the borders cannot be done without a war and that is the last thing that the three nations want. There is too much national pride involved in giving away an inch of land.


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## Ganguly

Jammu and Kashmir removed from list of 'disputes' under UN

United Nations: In a significant development, Jammu and Kashmir has been removed from the United Nations(UN) list of unresolved disputes, giving a setback to Pakistan which has been asking the world body to intervene on the issue.

The omission of Jammu and Kashmir from a list of disputes under the observation of the UN Security Council was noticed by Pakistan whose envoy has lodged a protest.

"Jammu and Kashmir dispute was not mentioned in the context of unresolved long-running situations," said Amjad Hussain B Sial, Pakistan' acting envoy to the UN.

"We understand this was an inadvertent omission, as Jammu and Kashmir is one of the oldest disputes on agenda of the Security Council," he added.

Sial was speaking at the UN General Assembly session, which was discussing the functioning and reform of the Security Council. It was organised by the UK that holds the presidency of the Security Council this month.

Pakistan has been asking the UN to intervene to help resolve the issue but India has always maintained that it has to be resolved bilaterally between the two countries.

Speaking earlier at the General Assembly, the UK envoy to the UN, Mark Lyall Grant, said that "some long-running situations, including in the Middle East, Cyprus and Western Sahara remain unresolved, as do issues where the Council has become engaged in recent years, including Nepal and Guinea Bissau."

"Huge challenges remain in Sudan, Somalia and the DRC," he added.

Pakistan repeatedly raises Kashmir as an issue for the UN while India asserts that it is an internal matter.

While expressing concern about the unrest, Secretary- General Ban Ki-moon said that the UN will not intervene until requested by both parties.

"As far as this role of good offices is concerned, the United Nations normally takes that initiative when requested by both parties concerned," Ban said in October.

"India and Pakistan, they are neighbouring countries, important nations in that region - peace and security would have important implications," he added.

At the debate in the General Assembly, the UK also repeated its support to see India on as a permanent member of the Security Council.

"On the Council's structure, we continue to support permanent membership for Brazil, Germany, India and Japan, as well as permanent representation for Africa," said Philip Parham, deputy envoy to UK.

"We look forward to working with many of these countries next year when they join the Security Council," he said, referring to the entry of India and Germany on the Council next year as non-permanent members for a two year term.

While Japan will leave the Council in 2011, Brazil will serve out one more year.

The UK representative also suggested "an intermediate model" of reform, which would create new seats with a longer mandate than the present two year term.

Then, at the end of this period, a review would be done to see whether these seats should be turned into permanent ones.

Pakistan, which objects to India being on the Council, argued that the new council should include a few large states, a number of medium sized States and a majority of smaller States.

"We support the position of the Organization of Islamic Conference demanding adequate representation of Muslim Ummah in the Security Council," said Sial.

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## third eye

dezi said:


> If only the fanatics were convinced by this settlement.... life would be so much better. phew...
> Most Indians would agree to this settlement.. but I doubt there are many takers in Pakistan.



In India too there shall be a major uproar. The opposition shall go for the Govts throat on this.


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## Chinese-Dragon

dezi said:


> At this point in time, the only solution to easily settle down on is maintaining status quo because any change in drawing the borders cannot be done without a war and that is the last thing that the three nations want. There is too much national pride involved in giving away an inch of land.



True, I don't think anyone will give up an inch of land without a war.

So maintaining the status quo makes the most sense.


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## oct605032048

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Thanks for the info.  Question, why then is it still a disputed territory today? Does it serve simply as a political bargaining chip?



Nehru claimed foreign lands that is hundreds miles away from the nearest Indian outpost, first on his map, then on the news paper. Perhaps he believed that the Grand Old Country behind the Himalaya dare not challenge the successor of the British Empire in the Sub-continent, so it took him another couple of years to decide sending out an explorer team to his dream land on his wet dream map. 

When the team found there was already a highway, they behaved just like true indian heroes&#8212;&#8212;jumped shouting 'enemy invade&#65281;enemy invade!' and run back home.

That's how Chinese white sand land becomes dispute.


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## CONNAN

Dance said:


> I cant find any other sources besides indian ones and we all know how "reliable" they are



United Nations News



FreekiN said:


> only indian sources so far
> 
> 
> dont get your hopes up, indian media loves to lie



United Nations News



Black Blood said:


> Post any International source please.



United Nations News

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## devd

Vimana1 said:


> This must have been a undercover deal struck when Obama was in town, only the US has the strings to pull this off.



hahhaha. I like the post


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## Chinese-Dragon

third eye said:


> In India too there shall be a major uproar. The opposition shall go for the Govts throat on this.



I don't think there will be much opposition from China if this were to be put forward.

China already controls Aksai chin and Shakgam valley, and don't claim any of the surrounding area. So turning the status quo into permanent borders, means that we can solve this boundary dispute... and we don't have to give up any land at all.


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## karan.1970

Here you go from the Nation...

UNs real face | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

For those who still believe that the United Nations has not become the handmaiden of big and 
influential Western powers, led by the US, would have problem justifying Kashmir&#8217;s omission 
from the report of the Security Council containing the list of long-standing disputes on its agenda. 
This grave lapse must be seen in the backdrop of the fact that since Obama opened his eyes in 
the White House and was taken in by the outward glare of India&#8217;s potential, howsoever dicey it 
might ultimately prove to be, to serve as the US surrogate in the region, he has become blind to 
the reality of atrocities that the Indian security forces are committing day in and day out in the 
occupied Valley. In the din of the propaganda of his team of the Indian origin advisors, he no 
longer hears the cries of agony of the orphaned, the widowed, the raped or the tortured Kashmiri 
people &#8211; the outcome of the brutal and illegal hold of India &#8211; that Candidate Obama felt could be 
brought to an end through a just solution of the dispute in line with the aspirations of the people of 
the state. With this policy change, the US President felt quite comfortable with extending his 
country&#8217;s backing to India&#8217;s bid for a permanent seat at the UN Security Council whose Charter it 
has massively violated. 
The UNSC&#8217;s was a studied omission; and to call it an inadvertent lapse, as Pakistan&#8217;s acting 


Permanent Representative at the UN did, is a travesty of fact, an inexcusably timid reaction from 
a country directly concerned with the issue and the country to which the beleaguered Kashmiris 
look up for support. The terming it as inadvertency simply amounts to ditching the Kashmiris, and 
deserves to be condemned unreservedly. One reason for the UNSC&#8217;s turnaround is 
Washington&#8217;s strategic decision to woo India at all costs in the vain expectation that New Delhi 
would live up to its wishes of checkmating the spread of Beijing&#8217;s influence in the region. The 
other is the reality of the economic benefit that the US would be able to draw from a strategic 
partner in need of foreign goods and technology its corporate sector would be able to meet. 
This and a host of other signs unmistakably suggest that the Americans have opted for India as a 
strategic ally and, since Pakistan and India cannot go along together unless their disputes are 
amicably settled that the US is unwilling to try for fear that it might lose India&#8217;s favours, dropping 
Pakistan when it has served its purpose in the wrongly called war on terror. The pity is that 
despite clear indications and warnings from friendly voices, our ruling leadership does not seem 
to accept this reality. The sooner it realises that our salvation lies in changing the direction of our 
hopes and expectations the lesser the damage the US flirtation with us could cause.

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## BigTree.CN

Chinese-Dragon said:


> OK you can put it like that. To reiterate, China controls around 20% of the *disputed territory* in the Kashmir region. The disputed area under Chinese control is uninhabited.



CD, how many times do we have to tell you that China does not control any part of Kashmir?


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## StingRoy

third eye said:


> In India too there shall be a major uproar. The opposition shall go for the Govts throat on this.



Thats why I said excluding the fanatics.  
But I agree that is going to be an issue... when parties try to gain political mileage out of the issue. I was referring to honest personal opinions of the people in my comment.


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## CardSharp

third eye said:


> In India too there shall be a major uproar. The opposition shall go for the Govts throat on this.



The difference here is that those fanatics don't yet have the vote in China. The window for settling these disputes is closing. While China's government have settled most of its land disputes generously and against public opinion, as China democratizes, it will be more and more difficult to do in the future.

China can't wait forever and a democratic China will not mean a more sympathetic China.

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## Chinese-Dragon

BigTree.CN said:


> CD, how many times do we have to tell you that China does not control any part of Kashmir?



OK I'll say Kashmir REGION.

And no you have never said this to me before.

The bottom line is that Aksai chin is a disputed area, because it is controlled by China and claimed by India.


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## devd



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## karan.1970

Very much in line with recent comments from Obama and Ban KI Moon about UN and US having no role in the Kashmir issue till asked by both countries. I suspect a major financial incentive would have been provided to Pakistan in exchange, going by the slow and shallow reaction by Pakistan on this.

This may eventually get dubbed as a clerical error with an apology (Lots of them coming Pakistan's way these days). But indicates that this issue is now going past its shelf life in the international arena...

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## ajtr

im not sure but wasn't it removed before???


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## CardSharp

Chinese-Dragon said:


> OK I'll say Kashmir REGION.
> 
> And no you have never said this to me before.
> 
> The bottom line is that Aksai chin is a disputed area, because it is controlled by China and claimed by India.



Yes and tomorrow China can claim Hartford Connecticut as Chinese territory but it doesn't mean the Americans will see it as disputed land.


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## Chinese-Dragon

CardSharp said:


> Yes and tomorrow China can claim Hartford Connecticut as Chinese territory but it doesn't mean the Americans will see it as disputed land.



Wait so is Aksai chin disputed or not?


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## BigTree.CN

Chinese-Dragon said:


> OK I'll say Kashmir REGION.
> 
> And no you have never said this to me before.
> 
> The bottom line is that Aksai chin is a disputed area, because it is controlled by China and claimed by India.



The bottom line should be Aksai Chin has nothing to do with India.

If India claiming Aksai chin makes it a disputed land, what happens when they claim Tibet, or even claim the whole China?

&#25105;&#22312;&#20013;&#25991;&#36148;&#37324;&#36319;&#20320;&#35828;&#36807;&#36825;&#20010;&#38382;&#39064;&#65292;&#20320;&#21487;&#20197;&#33258;&#24049;&#21435;&#30475;&#30475;&#12290;


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## LaBong

Aksai Chin is important to China because it has the only direct route from Tibet to XinXiang. I don't think India has any interest in Aksai Chin, it's just a bargaining chip for Chinese claim of Tawang.

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## BigTree.CN

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Wait so is Aksai chin disputed or not?



It is not from our side.


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## Chinese-Dragon

BigTree.CN said:


> The bottom line should be Aksai Chin has nothing to do with India.
> 
> If India claiming Aksai chin makes it a disputed land, what happens when they claim Tibet, or even claim the whole China?
> 
> &#25105;&#22312;&#20013;&#25991;&#36148;&#37324;&#36319;&#20320;&#35828;&#36807;&#36825;&#20010;&#38382;&#39064;&#65292;&#20320;&#21487;&#20197;&#33258;&#24049;&#21435;&#30475;&#30475;&#12290;



Why don't you ask THEM why they are claiming Aksai chin then?

How would I know why India wants to claim that area?


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## CardSharp

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Wait so is Aksai chin disputed or not?



Nope, India didn't care until it started asserting its right over land drawnout by the Mahon line. As far as I'm concerned it's not. 

Ask the Indian army if they want to occupy it. They didn't in 1962 and I doubt they want to now. They told the political leadership as much back then.




Chinese-Dragon said:


> Why don't you ask THEM why they are claiming Aksai chin then?
> 
> How would I know why India wants to claim that area?



Here's pretty much the answer I've been trying to explain. 



Abir said:


> Aksai Chin is important to China because it has the only direct route from Tibet to XinXiang. I don't think India has any interest in Aksai Chin, it's just a bargaining chip for Chinese claim of Tawang.


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## BigTree.CN

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Why don't you ask THEM why they are claiming Aksai chin then?
> 
> How would I know why India wants to claim that area?




Because they are a bunch of expansionists, is that reason good enough for you?

You don't know the reason why they claim Aksai Chin, then why are you in a hurry to call it a disputed land?

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## LaBong

BigTree.CN said:


> The bottom line should be Aksai Chin has nothing to do with India.
> 
> If India claiming Aksai chin makes it a disputed land, what happens when they claim Tibet, or even claim the whole China?
> 
> &#25105;&#22312;&#20013;&#25991;&#36148;&#37324;&#36319;&#20320;&#35828;&#36807;&#36825;&#20010;&#38382;&#39064;&#65292;&#20320;&#21487;&#20197;&#33258;&#24049;&#21435;&#30475;&#30475;&#12290;



It's disputed because Aksai Chin was a part of Ladakh which was under Hari Singh's rule and Hari Singh acceded the whole Kashmir to India. 

Please write in English which is the lingua franca for this forum(except member's club) for everyone's convenience.


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## Chinese-Dragon

CardSharp said:


> Nope, India didn't care until it started it started assert its right land drawnout by the Mahon line. As far as I'm concerned it's not.
> 
> Ask the Indian army if they want to occupy it. They didn't in 1962 and I doubt they want to now. They told the political leadership as much back then.



I mean is it disputed "today"?

I read that it was disputed in some articles a while back, but I am not aware if it is still considered disputed by international observers?


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## oct605032048

the disputatious of Kashmir should be limited between India and Pakistan. China has no border disagreement with Pakistan. We don't owe Indian anything in Kashmir, there is nothing to talk about.


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## Chinese-Dragon

BigTree.CN said:


> Because they are a bunch of expansionists, is that reason good enough for you?
> 
> You don't know the reason why they claim Aksai Chin, then why are you in a hurry to call it a disputed land?



Because this is the definition of a territorial dispute:

"*A territorial dispute is a disagreement over the possession/control of land between two or more states*, or over the possession or control of land by a new state and occupying power after it has conquered the land from a former state no longer currently recognized by the new state."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_dispute

What do YOU think the phrase "disputed area" means? If I got the definition wrong, then please correct me.


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## LaBong

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I mean is it disputed "today"?
> 
> I read that it was disputed in some articles a while back, but I am not aware if it is still considered disputed by international observers?



Yes it's disputed. All the land that was under Hari Singh's rule is disputed.


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## BigTree.CN

CD&#65292;&#25105;&#23545;&#20320;&#26080;&#35821;&#20102;&#12290;

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## Hyde

oh well Power speaks 

Money wins... Humanity lose

Nothing new, this has been the practice of human beings since thousands of years now 

PS: You are most welcome to criticize this post...But Kashmiri's should have been the prime voter to conclude this matter....Not India or the United Nations

Anyway, doesn't matter - The matter is still disputed between both nations

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## Chinese-Dragon

BigTree.CN said:


> CD&#65292;&#25105;&#23545;&#20320;&#26080;&#35821;&#20102;&#12290;



&#20026;&#20160;&#20040;?&#20320;&#24819;&#35201;&#20160;&#20040;?

If you don't want to talk... you don't have to.

I don't understand why you are so upset that I used the phrase "disputed area". Clearly it fits the definition of the phrase, or at least the definition I could find? You can correct me if I am wrong.

Do you want me to stop saying that Aksai chin is disputed? If this is what you want... then just ask me.


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## oct605032048

Abir said:


> It's disputed because Aksai Chin was a part of Ladakh which was under Hari Singh's rule and Hari Singh acceded the whole Kashmir to India.
> 
> Please write in English which is the lingua franca for this forum(except member's club) for everyone's convenience.



ladakh was a tribal under the spiritual leader of Tibet,which then was under the Crown of Qing. Ladakh was stolened illegally by the ruler of Kashmir by military actions without the agreement of its owner, so it is not legally Kashmir land. Whether the ruler of Mr.Singe has the right to decide the fate of Kashmir people and to give 'his' land to India has been under disputation (with Pakistan and People of Kashmir e.g.). 

Based on the reasons, I have no choice but seriously doubt your points and leads to my conclusion that 'Chinese white sand' is not a dispute area but Indian controlled Kashmir is.


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## karan.1970

Zaki said:


> oh well Power speaks
> 
> Money wins... Humanity lose
> 
> Nothing new, this has been the practice of human beings since thousands of years now
> 
> PS: You are most welcome to criticize this post...But Kashmiri's should have been the prime voter to conclude this matter....Not India or the United Nations
> 
> Anyway, doesn't matter - The matter is still disputed between both nations



Zaki Bhai.. UN does not recognize Kashmir as a separate country. IN the books of UN, it was a dispute between India and Pakistan, with both claiming full Kashmir..


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## Peacefulll

So many arguments about the semantics of whether it is "disputed" or not??

Anyhow, as per a few Chinese members, if Aksai Chin is not disputed territory, those posters must also stop calling Arunachal Pradesh as disputed. The argument works both ways, so please be consistent.


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## CardSharp

oct605032048 said:


> ladakh was a tribal under the spiritual leader of Tibet,which then was under the Crown of Qing. Ladakh was stolened illegally by the ruler of Kashmir by military actions without the agreement of its owner, so it is not legally Kashmir land. Whether the ruler of Mr.Singe has the right to decide the fate of Kashmir people and to give 'his' land to India has been under disputation (with Pakistan and People of Kashmir e.g.).
> 
> Based on the reasons, I have no choice but seriously doubt your points and leads to my conclusion that 'Chinese white sand' is not a dispute area but Indian controlled Kashmir is.



Self-determination and democracy in Tibet but not in JK.




Peacefulll said:


> So many arguments about the semantics of whether it is "disputed" or not??
> 
> Anyhow, as per a few Chinese members, if Aksai Chin is not disputed territory, those posters must also stop calling Arunachal Pradesh as disputed. The argument works both ways, so please be consistent.



You're right. It isn't disputed.


----------



## Peacefulll

oct605032048 said:


> ladakh was a tribal under the spiritual leader of Tibet,which then was under the Crown of Qing. Ladakh was stolened illegally by the ruler of Kashmir by military actions without the agreement of its owner, so it is not legally Kashmir land. Whether the ruler of Mr.Singe has the right to decide the fate of Kashmir people and to give 'his' land to India has been under disputation (with Pakistan and People of Kashmir e.g.).
> 
> Based on the reasons, I have no choice but seriously doubt your points and leads to my conclusion that 'Chinese white sand' is not a dispute area but Indian controlled Kashmir is.



You cannot correct historical inaccuracies here. If you speak of "stolened" by Hari Singh and all that, then remember that we can go very far back in history, even hundreds of years, back to the time when "Mongolians" used to rule large parts of China.


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## LaBong

CardSharp said:


> Self-determination and democracy in Tibet but not in JK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're right. It isn't disputed.



Even you're equating Tibet with Kashmir.


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## oct605032048

Peacefulll said:


> So many arguments about the semantics of whether it is "disputed" or not??
> 
> Anyhow, as per a few Chinese members, if Aksai Chin is not disputed territory, those posters must also stop calling Arunachal Pradesh as disputed. The argument works both ways, so please be consistent.



The agreement of boundary arrangement of the McMahon line had not been reached and approved by the then Republic Government and Parliament. So the two side holds a different understanding about the sino-indian border. So your 'state of the rising sun' is truely a disputed area.

But here, chinese white sand dose not belong to Kashmir, which of course has nothing to do with India.


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## CardSharp

Abir said:


> Even you're equating Tibet with Kashmir.



Hey I am just going off the majority Indian opinion. Don't you guys bring up Tibet whenever you feel like trolling?

Tibetan democracy and self-determination and all that jazz.


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## BigTree.CN

Peacefulll said:


> So many arguments about the semantics of whether it is "disputed" or not??
> 
> Anyhow, as per a few Chinese members, if Aksai Chin is not disputed territory, those posters must also stop calling Arunachal Pradesh as disputed. The argument works both ways, so please be consistent.



See? 
That is why India is claiming Aksai Chin, using Aksai Chin as a bargaining chip.

Whether Indian think it is a disputed land or not really does not matter to us, that is why i didn't reply Indian post except this one.

You think Kashmir belongs to India, sorry, I think otherwise. I think Pakistan should have it.

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## Chinese-Dragon

CardSharp said:


> You're right. It isn't disputed.



OK can we just clarify once and for all what the definition of disputed territory is, and whether Askai chin and/or Arunachal Pradesh are disputed or not.

Here is a list of territorial disputes from the World Factbook. I don't think it is a neutral source, so does anyone have better sources?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2070.html


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## LaBong

oct605032048 said:


> ladakh was a tribal under the spiritual leader of Tibet,which then was under the Crown of Qing. Ladakh was stolened illegally by the ruler of Kashmir by military actions without the agreement of its owner, so it is not legally Kashmir land. Whether the ruler of Mr.Singe has the right to decide the fate of Kashmir people and to give 'his' land to India has been under disputation (with Pakistan and People of Kashmir e.g.).
> 
> Based on the reasons, I have no choice but seriously doubt your points and leads to my conclusion that 'Chinese white sand' is not a dispute area but Indian controlled Kashmir is.



Look once upon a time Afghanistan was under the rule of Mourya dynasty. 

I already told that India doesn't have any interest in Aksai Chin. But it fits the description of disputed territory.


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## CardSharp

Chinese-Dragon said:


> OK can we just clarify once and for all what the definition of disputed territory is, and whether Askai chin and/or Arunachal Pradesh are disputed or not.
> 
> Here is a list of territorial disputes from the World Factbook.
> 
> https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2070.html



You're missing the point here. It's a matter of perspective. 


and why would the CIA be the authority?


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## indushek

I am unable to understand the final result. Its true that internationally this issue is sidelined and i accept that this is good for our UN seat aspirations. However this will not change the status quo between India and Pakistan does it?? they will never accept this.


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## baker

am wondering whether kashmir is in disputed list or not .. what will be the impact on kashmiri people...
they will anyway walkthrough streets guarded by our army ,
they will be always hear the gunbattle between millitants and our army ..

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## Chinese-Dragon

CardSharp said:


> You're missing the point here. It's a matter of perspective.
> 
> and why would the CIA be the authority?



I couldn't find any neutral sources, I asked in my post above if anyone had neutral sources regarding territorial disputes.



CardSharp said:


> You're missing the point here. It's a matter of perspective.



OK so Aksai chin is Chinese territory that is disputed by India.


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## oct605032048

Peacefulll said:


> You cannot correct historical inaccuracies here. If you speak of "stolened" by Hari Singh and all that, then remember that we can go very far back in history, even hundreds of years, back to the time when "Mongolians" used to rule large parts of China.



Just as you said, ladakh was submitted itself to the emperor in Beijing during the Yuan dynasty. So why are you guys trying to stolen our forefathers lands even across Pakistan's territory?

Is it just because you were enslaved by British for 300 years and you have the right to do same thing to your neighbors?


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## Abhishek_

i'm not sure why people are getting hyper about this piece of news. How does the exclusion change the ground realities? Kashmir, Aksai-Chin, and Arunachal will remain disputed as long as the concerned parties don't come to an amicable solution. 
Being in the UN disputed list carries little relevance (at least these days)


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## LaBong

Abir said:


> Aksai Chin is important to China because it has the only direct route from Tibet to XinXiang. I don't think India has any interest in Aksai Chin, it's just a bargaining chip for Chinese claim of Tawang.





Abir said:


> It's disputed because Aksai Chin was a part of Ladakh which was under Hari Singh's rule and Hari Singh acceded the whole Kashmir to India.



Is it hard to understand this two posts?


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## LaBong

oct605032048 said:


> Just as you said, ladakh was submitted itself to the emperor in Beijing during the Yuan dynasty. So why are you guys trying to stolen our forefathers lands even across Pakistan's territory?
> 
> Is it just because you were enslaved by British for 300 years and you have the right to do same thing to your neighbors?



Do you want me to come up with maps of old Indians dynasties and claim all the land they ruled?


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## CardSharp

*Face Palm*

I'm calling it a night.

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## oct605032048

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I couldn't find any neutral sources, I asked in my post above if anyone had neutral sources regarding territorial disputes.
> 
> 
> 
> OK so Aksai chin is Chinese territory, that is disputed by India.



Go to the CIA for neutral information, how come I didn't thought about it?
btw Is it these guys' job to create dispute areas around the worldfor the interest of the united states?


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## Chinese-Dragon

oct605032048 said:


> Go to the CIA for neutral information, how come I didn't thought about it?
> btw Is it these guys' job to create dispute areas around the world&#8212;&#8212;for the interest of the united states?



I already said that the World Factbook wasn't a neutral source. Do you have any others?

It doesn't matter anyway. I'm just going to go by the traditional definition of "territorial dispute" that I posted before.


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## GodlessBastard

indushek said:


> I am unable to understand the final result. Its true that internationally this issue is sidelined and i accept that this is good for our UN seat aspirations. However this will not change the status quo between India and Pakistan does it?? they will never accept this.



No, it does not change the status quo.

However, this decision is still very significant because Pakistan now has no chance of getting international support on Kashmir. It is still disputed between India and Pakistan, but without international support does Pakistan have any chance of getting Kashmir?


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## oct605032048

Abir said:


> Do you want me to come up with maps of old Indians dynasties and claim all the land they ruled?



yes yes, we all know Indian people are genius map makers. You can try your fortune with any maps you would like to take to the land in real world. Good luck and good bye.


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## GodlessBastard

BigTree.CN said:


> You think Kashmir belongs to India, sorry, I think otherwise. I think Pakistan should have it.



Luckily for us, your opinion doesn't matter.

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## BigTree.CN

GodlessBastard said:


> Luckily for us, your opinion doesn't matter.



It seems my country's opinion matters.

Too bad China still does not recognize India's self-righteous sovereignty over Kashmir.

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## LaBong

oct605032048 said:


> yes yes, we all know Indian people are genius map makers. You can try your fortune with any maps you would like to take to the land in real world. Good luck and good bye.



It's same as saying take the land if you have power to take it. 

Fair enough. Let's not mourn for our forgotten ancestral land of 1000 years ago but talk in real terms and accept the reality as it is now. 

Peoples Republic of China isn't the successor of yuan dynasty neither Republic of India is of mouryas or mughals.

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## oct605032048

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I already said that the World Factbook wasn't a neutral source. Do you have any others?



International affair is always hard tell in a few words, especially when territory get involved. what should I say to you er....

Do you remember the words that chairman Jiang told hong kong press? That whether his meeting Dong jianhua(sorry I don't know the spell in hong kong way) is showing of central government support to the then unpopular Chief Officer ?


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## bigmoneymaker

aksai chin translation meaning is china's white sand?? thats something new....

btw, chinese dragon why you insisted on aksai chin is a disputed territory since it is an undisputed territory to china from the very beginning?? china gov never admits it is a disputed territory right?

you may just help indians to create their bargaining chip by calling aksai chin is a disputed territory...

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## GodlessBastard

BigTree.CN said:


> It seems my country's opinion matters.
> 
> Too bad China still does not recognize India's self-righteous sovereignty over Kashmir.



Actually, China's opinion doesn't really matter either, because the areas of Kashmir that India wants belong to Pakistan only, not China.

The Aksai Chin plateau is claimed by India only as a bargaining chip. As soon as you withdraw your illegitimate claim to Arunachal Pradesh, we will withdraw our claim to Aksai Chin.


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## conworldus

To be very fair, if we go by a Tsing dynasty map, Zangnan should be Chinese and Aksachin is Kashmir.

Old map here.
http://www.c-ref.de/gallery/albums/maps/historical/Qing-Empire1.jpg

---------- Post added at 06:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:20 AM ----------

To be very fair, if we go by a Tsing dynasty map, Zangnan should be Chinese and Aksachin is Kashmir.

Old map here.
http://www.c-ref.de/gallery/albums/maps/historical/Qing-Empire1.jpg


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## Chinese-Dragon

oct605032048 said:


> International affair is always hard tell in a few words, especially when territory get involved. what should I say to you er....
> 
> Do you remember the words that chairman Jiang told hong kong press? That whether his meeting *Dong jianhua(sorry I don't know the spell in hong kong way)* is showing of central government support to the then unpopular Chief Officer ?



In Hong Kong, his name is spelled "Tung Chee Hwa" rather than Dong Jianhua.

No sorry I don't remember what he said there.

Anyway there is no point arguing any more, if you guys think it's wrong for me to use the phrase "disputed area" then I will respect your opinion, and not say it.


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## GodlessBastard

conworldus said:


> To be very fair, if we go by a Tsing dynasty map, Zangnan should be Chinese and Aksachin is Kashmir.
> 
> Old map here.
> http://www.c-ref.de/gallery/albums/maps/historical/Qing-Empire1.jpg
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:20 AM ----------
> 
> To be very fair, if we go by a Tsing dynasty map, Zangnan should be Chinese and Aksachin is Kashmir.
> 
> Old map here.
> http://www.c-ref.de/gallery/albums/maps/historical/Qing-Empire1.jpg



What is Zangnan?


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## conworldus

Taking Zangnan back and holding it is impractical without proper transport and logistic support.


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## conworldus

GodlessBastard said:


> What is Zangnan?



Southern Tibet, the part we fought a war over which you still occupy. The map shows it all.


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## sensenreason

Eventually Indian people will get their due and Pak-China combine will be taught a lesson. It might take 30 years but it will happen.Thats the time it will take for India to consolidate its economic and miltary power and complete internal cleanup and integration.

Its funny that while Mughals were dethroned by the British and they also conducted the Opium wars in China its India that bears the brunt of anti-imperial anger...even though its a fact that China TRADES and hence depends on the West much more than India and fights the Wests war in the case of Pakistan. Its hypocrisy. India has never and will never fully align with any other power like these two have....as I said..eventually they will learn by the dint of words or war.


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## true_indian

BigTree.CN said:


> It seems my country's opinion matters.
> 
> Too bad China still does not recognize India's self-righteous sovereignty over Kashmir.



It might matter in other smaller countries it wouldn't work in India..If you are so powerful why don't pass a resolution against Kashmir in UN, we'll see what happens..or even arunachal pradesh if you can..


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## huzihaidao12

Abir said:


> It's same as saying take the land if you have power to take it.
> 
> Fair enough. Let's not mourn for our forgotten ancestral land of 1000 years ago but talk in real terms and accept the reality as it is now.
> 
> Peoples Republic of China isn't the successor of yuan dynasty neither Republic of India is of mouryas or mughals.



It is a historical mistake, China is the successor of the Yuan Dynasty, and you ask the opinions of the Yuan emperor? Do not live in a self-world.


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## oct605032048

bigmoneymaker said:


> aksai chin translation meaning is china's white sand?? thats something new....
> 
> btw, chinese dragon why you insisted on aksai chin is a disputed territory since it is an undisputed territory to china from the very beginning?? china gov never admits it is a disputed territory right?
> 
> you may just help indians to create their bargaining chip by calling aksai chin is a disputed territory...



That is why Mr. Jiang said 'Too simple, sometimes naive' in English.


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## true_indian

^^ all of you are digressing from article itself. When India said 'Kashmir is what Tibet to China', I think they mean J&K not aksai chin, not even AG, GB.. Why do you have to make it India China issue..


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## flameboard

The UN is losing it power in the world it nothing but a bunch of people with political aims.


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## Chinese-Dragon

oct605032048 said:


> That is why Mr. Jiang said 'Too simple, sometimes naive' in English.



Ah yes I remember that.

So what does that have to do with what we are discussing?


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## Peacefulll

oct605032048 said:


> yes yes, we all know Indian people are genius map makers. You can try your fortune with any maps you would like to take to the land in real world. Good luck and good bye.



You didn't understand a word Abir said. Let me make it even simpler for you: in the ancient world, empires and kings were constantly at war, and boundaries and kingdoms kept changing. So it is utter nonsense to talk about 'Hari singh stole it from Ladakh'. That utter tripe is not relevant to the modern era anyway. India had empires like the Mauryas and Mughals who controlled large tracts of land which today, belong to other countries. If we go by your logic, we can claim most of that land. This is not too tough to understand, just think about it. And remain in the modern era, stop going back in history, coz' two can play that game.


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## bandmaster

Hidden in this "news" is the simple realization that
1. India will never ask for intervention as it can handle any Pakistani challenge on it's own. (No Nehru's on the Indian horizon).

2. The "disputed" status provides an incentive for Pakistan to escalate tensions. Indeed, the only thing that would concern the international community is that Pakistan may risk a nuclear war over Kashmir. However, India's handling of the Kargil war has proven that any adventure will be quickly suppressed without any discernible consequences. 

3. Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh are not accepted as the root cause of Pakistani instability anymore. The total dysfunction in Balochistan, K-P and Swat has not gone unnoticed. Every arm-chair strategist is aware at district-level about the turmoil engulfing Pakistan.

So, while this news may raise some eyebrows, it is totally inconsequential. Pakistanis should have realized what the UN has been hinting at, for some time now.


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## shineonyoucrazydiamond

already discussing.. please merge..


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## BigTree.CN

GodlessBastard said:


> Actually, China's opinion doesn't really matter either, because the areas of Kashmir that India wants belong to Pakistan only, not China.



Then no need to start a thread like this. If India can sort it out with Pakistan, whatever result it is, China will accept it.

Comparing Tibet and Taiwan to Kashmir is just another bargaining chip India is trying to create.



> The Aksai Chin plateau is claimed by India only as a bargaining chip. As soon as you withdraw your illegitimate claim to Arunachal Pradesh, we will withdraw our claim to Aksai Chin.



China's claim to South Tibet is legitimate, it is not a bargainning chip, we have claimed Sout Tibet since the very beginning. 

India's claim to Aksai Chin is just a bargainning chip, hence illegitimate. 

There is no way China is gonna give up the claim to South Tibet just because India uses Aksai Chin as a bargainning chip. It only proves that bargainning chip works.

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## Peacefulll

BigTree.CN said:


> It seems my country's opinion matters.
> 
> Too bad China still does not recognize India's self-righteous sovereignty over Kashmir.



Your country's opinion matters zilch as far as Kashmir issue is concerned. If it had indeed mattered so much, you would have already done something about it. 

And please, stop this ultra-nationalistic talk of "Indians are bunch of expansionists, that is why they are doing this"   That is an accusation that lots of countries around you can make of China as well.


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## desiman

There goes to the so called "UN resolutions"argument, its high time now that Pakistan also moves on, it gains nothing by messing with India.

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## Capt.Popeye

Assuming that the decision is real (i.e. not inadvertent); it changes very little. The GoP and GoI will still have to indulge in verbal sparring. The International Community will still continue to make the same noises (i.e. the issue should be resolved by GoI and GoP). And most of all, nobody else will still want to get involved in the _*morass*_ apart from verbalising.
Nothing has changed, apart from something in the realm of symbolism.


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## Peacefulll

BigTree.CN said:


> Then no need to start a thread like this. If India can sort it out with Pakistan, whatever result it is, China will accept it.
> 
> Comparing Tibet and Taiwan to Kashmir is just another bargaining chip India is trying to create.
> 
> 
> 
> China's claim to South Tibet is legitimate, it is not a bargainning chip, we have claimed Sout Tibet since the very beginning.
> 
> India's claim to Aksai Chin is just a bargainning chip, hence illegitimate.
> 
> There is no way China is gonna give up the claim to South Tibet just because India uses Aksai Chin as a bargainning chip. It only proves that bargainning chip works.



Bah! Bargaining chip, bargaining chip, bargaining chip! Maybe you ought to ask your government to stop creating "bargaining chips" by carrying out provocative moves like issuing stapled visas to Indian soldiers who have served in Kashmir (and even people from Indian Kashmir). The hypocrisy here is that China does not offer such stapled visas etc. to people of Pakistani side of Kashmir. 

If you do such things, you are inviting more statements and more sentiment of this kind, you have only your own government's actions of the past one year to blame for this.


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## oct605032048

Peacefulll said:


> You didn't understand a word Abir said. Let me make it even simpler for you: in the ancient world, empires and kings were constantly at war, and boundaries and kingdoms kept changing. So it is utter nonsense to talk about 'Hari singh stole it from Ladakh'. That utter tripe is not relevant to the modern era anyway. India had empires like the Mauryas and Mughals who controlled large tracts of land which today, belong to other countries. If we go by your logic, we can claim most of that land. This is not too tough to understand, just think about it. And remain in the modern era, stop going back in history, coz' two can play that game.



You are right about the ancient time but wrong about our time. The land Nehru claimed as Indian soil had been under firmly control of China, and he even didn't know that at that time! 

If Indian want something from its neighbor, he must ether win it from battle field or trade it using something its neighbor wants from India. 

You know the funniest stuff here is, you are claiming something in a third country that is even behind mountains and ranges that firmly holded by your direct neighbor.

What would you think about this idea, China claiming a port in Ukraine over not only Ukrainian but also Russian territory.


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## roach

This is a pleasant surprise. This may be admitted as a mistake, but the message is clear. The UN has no role in Kashmir.

A diplomatic victory for India, but I hope this does not make us overconfident. A lot needs to be done in J&Kashmir-to start with, improving the economic infrastructure and security situation. We have another window of opportunity, we should USE IT!!!!!!!!!

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## BigTree.CN

Peacefulll said:


> Bah! Bargaining chip, bargaining chip, bargaining chip! Maybe you ought to ask your government to stop creating "bargaining chips" by carrying out provocative moves like issuing stapled visas to Indian soldiers who have served in Kashmir (and even people from Indian Kashmir). The hypocrisy here is that China does not offer such stapled visas etc. to people of Pakistani side of Kashmir.
> 
> If you do such things, you are inviting more statements and more sentiment of this kind, you have only your own government's actions of the past one year to blame for this.



Issuing stapled visas policy to a disputed area consists with China's stance over Kashmir.


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## oct605032048

Peacefulll said:


> Bah! Bargaining chip, bargaining chip, bargaining chip! Maybe you ought to ask your government to stop creating "bargaining chips" by carrying out provocative moves like issuing stapled visas to Indian soldiers who have served in Kashmir (and even people from Indian Kashmir). The hypocrisy here is that China does not offer such stapled visas etc. to people of Pakistani side of Kashmir.
> 
> If you do such things, you are inviting more statements and more sentiment of this kind, you have only your own government's actions of the past one year to blame for this.



Provocative movements?

What about that monk, 'son of India', murder of thousands lives jumping here and there like a monkey trying to split Indian's neighbor for all that dman long years? This is simply tit for tat. You want to using that monkey to gain from Xizang's chaos and you have to face the risk.


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## NWO

flameboard said:


> The UN is losing it power in the world it nothing but a bunch of people with political aims.


You can see this by the fact that India has growing influence, and is now using to control the UN. 

The UN is one big laughing stock. They haven't been able to do anything since it's creation, expect tell dictators and mass murderers to take a time out and think about what they've done.


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## indushek

GodlessBastard said:


> No, it does not change the status quo.
> 
> However, this decision is still very significant because Pakistan now has no chance of getting international support on Kashmir. It is still disputed between India and Pakistan, but without international support does Pakistan have any chance of getting Kashmir?



My friend even before this mistake or whatever happened there was little support for Pakistan internationally on the issue of Kashmir. What i am trying to say is that even when it was listed we didn't give two hoots to anybody in this world, this was the case from the start and then we were weak in many aspects. 

All i am saying is that this seems to be an attempt by our Western partners to remove the hassles in our way for a seat on the high table.


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## Ammyy

Pak objects to no mention of Kashmir in UN list of disputes


May be my new signature ............

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## BigTree.CN

oct605032048 said:


> Provocative movements?
> 
> What about that monk, 'son of India', murder of thousands lives jumping here and there like a monkey trying to split Indian's neighbor for all that dman long years? This is simply tit for tat.



That does not even count as a tit-for-tat.

If China wants to play tit-for-tat, China should set up a Sikkim government-in-exile in China. Then we are even.


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## Chinese-Dragon

oct605032048 said:


> That is why Mr. Jiang said 'Too simple, sometimes naive' in English.



Hey Oct, can you clarify what you mean by this post above? &#20320;&#26377;&#38382;&#39064;&#21527;?

What does Jiang Zemin's attempts at speaking English have to do with the topic?


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## huzihaidao12

I always hope that China and India to develop a real friendship, so I'd like to communicate with the Indians, but your boy had more than my area, there is no serious attitude, no real understanding, so I doubt we can have a number of valuable exchange, with the mouth will not get anything.


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## oct605032048

BigTree.CN said:


> That does not even count as a tit-for-tat.
> 
> If China wants to play tit-for-tat, China should set up a Sikkim government-in-exile in China. Then we are even.



Sikkim is too small and of limited value. Have you ever heard of the story of seven sisters? Assam for example.


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## karan.1970

No responses from our Pakistani Friends...

Anyway, this was a statement only, not a formal striking off the UNSC resolution on Kashmir.. But still a good step in the right direction. 

Actually listening to the muted response from Pakistan, I am almost certain that this was a planned move with Pakistani leadership already taken into confidence and being compensated for this..

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## oct605032048

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Hey Oct, can you clarify what you mean by this post above? &#20320;&#26377;&#38382;&#39064;&#21527;?
> 
> What does Jiang Zemin's attempts at speaking English have to do with the topic?



He was at that time a little bit of angry about the questions asked by Hong Kong journalists, so he burst out such words. I personally don't think it is a proper way to communicate with gentlemen from the Hong Kong press as a national leader. But I have to admit that, if my words embarrassed you I apologize, the words fit the situation here.


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## Alphatech

GodlessBastard said:


> Actually, China's opinion doesn't really matter either, because the areas of Kashmir that India wants belong to Pakistan only, not China.
> 
> The Aksai Chin plateau is claimed by India only as a bargaining chip. As soon as you withdraw your illegitimate claim to Arunachal Pradesh, we will withdraw our claim to Aksai Chin.



Bargaining Chip...........No, It is much more than that. If the Chinese can still claim Taiwan and hold a grudge against Japan for some 60 year old history, then we can also have a bit of fun ourselves. Aksai Chin might be a perfectly useless piece of land that will not benefit India in any way whatsoever, but still India will continue to claim it. Countries have even gone to war over less trivial matters. If India doesn't hold a few trump cards like the Aksai Chin dispute or his Holiness the Dalai Lama, China will try to dominate the entire region. India claims Aksai Chin for the same reason America protects Taiwan, not because of any maternal love, but simply to keep China in check. If we simply hand them over places like Aksai Chin or expel the Dalai Lama, they will take things for granted and then think of taking a swipe at Arunachal or maybe even Sikkim. 

As much as I love the idea of the Asian century, and India and China rising hand in hand, it would be foolish to take things for granted. As much as China tries to portray itself as a benevolent developing country, I firmly believe that it is carefully studying all the options it has to make sure that India will never become a threat. Even while China smiles at India, they have also applied the age old logic of our enemy's enemy is our friend. If their ever growing friendship with our other neighbor is just the regular alignment of 2 like minded countries, then I guess I should be able to grow wings and fly soon. Only a deluded individual would see this as a mere friendship, it is a very clear statement of intent. And India should be smart enough to recognize the message.

We love you China, and our two nations seem to be destined to get into bed together. But if you think we are silly enough to let you screw us, you like many others before you, have greatly underestimated what our Pakistani friends refer to as the "cunning Indians".


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## PakSher

That is the very reason the OIC was created because UN is loosing ground.


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## Chinese-Dragon

oct605032048 said:


> He was at that time a little bit of angry about the questions asked by Hong Kong journalists, so he burst out such words. I personally don't think it is a proper way to communicate with gentlemen from the Hong Kong press as a national leader. But I have to admit that, if my words embarrassed you I apologize, the words fit the situation here.



Ok nevermind, &#27809;&#38382;&#39064;. 

I was not bothered when Jiang Zemin said that anyway.


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## luckyyy

why china didn't veto on the issue..?


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## huzihaidao12

Alphatech said:


> Bargaining Chip...........No, It is much more than that. If the Chinese can still claim Taiwan and hold a grudge against Japan for some 60 year old history, then we can also have a bit of fun ourselves. Aksai Chin might be a perfectly useless piece of land that will not benefit India in any way whatsoever, but still India will continue to claim it. Countries have even gone to war over less trivial matters. If India doesn't hold a few trump cards like the Aksai Chin dispute or his Holiness the Dalai Lama, China will try to dominate the entire region. India claims Aksai Chin for the same reason America protects Taiwan, not because of any maternal love, but simply to keep China in check. If we simply hand them over places like Aksai Chin or expel the Dalai Lama, they will take things for granted and then think of taking a swipe at Arunachal or maybe even Sikkim.
> 
> As much as I love the idea of the Asian century, and India and China rising hand in hand, it would be foolish to take things for granted. As much as China tries to portray itself as a benevolent developing country, I firmly believe that it is carefully studying all the options it has to make sure that India will never become a threat. Even while China smiles at India, they have also applied the age old logic of our enemy's enemy is our friend. If their ever growing friendship with our other neighbor is just the regular alignment of 2 like minded countries, then I guess I should be able to grow wings and fly soon. Only a deluded individual would see this as a mere friendship, it is a very clear statement of intent. And India should be smart enough to recognize the message.
> 
> We love you China, and our two nations seem to be destined to get into bed together. But if you think we are silly enough to let you screw us, you like many others before you, have greatly underestimated what our Pakistani friends refer to as the "cunning Indians".




Do you know China has a good condition to solve the territorial issue in 90s.?You are really silly, completely living in a self-suggestion.


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## IndianTiger

Ganguly said:


> Jammu and Kashmir removed from list of 'disputes' under UN
> 
> United Nations: In a significant development, Jammu and Kashmir has been removed from the United Nations(UN) list of unresolved disputes, giving a setback to Pakistan which has been asking the world body to intervene on the issue.
> 
> The omission of Jammu and Kashmir from a list of disputes under the observation of the UN Security Council was noticed by Pakistan whose envoy has lodged a protest.
> 
> "Jammu and Kashmir dispute was not mentioned in the context of unresolved long-running situations," said Amjad Hussain B Sial, Pakistan' acting envoy to the UN.
> 
> "We understand this was an inadvertent omission, as Jammu and Kashmir is one of the oldest disputes on agenda of the Security Council," he added.
> 
> Sial was speaking at the UN General Assembly session, which was discussing the functioning and reform of the Security Council. It was organised by the UK that holds the presidency of the Security Council this month.
> 
> Pakistan has been asking the UN to intervene to help resolve the issue but India has always maintained that it has to be resolved bilaterally between the two countries.
> 
> Speaking earlier at the General Assembly, the UK envoy to the UN, Mark Lyall Grant, said that "some long-running situations, including in the Middle East, Cyprus and Western Sahara remain unresolved, as do issues where the Council has become engaged in recent years, including Nepal and Guinea Bissau."
> 
> "Huge challenges remain in Sudan, Somalia and the DRC," he added.
> 
> Pakistan repeatedly raises Kashmir as an issue for the UN while India asserts that it is an internal matter.
> 
> While expressing concern about the unrest, Secretary- General Ban Ki-moon said that the UN will not intervene until requested by both parties.
> 
> "As far as this role of good offices is concerned, the United Nations normally takes that initiative when requested by both parties concerned," Ban said in October.
> 
> "India and Pakistan, they are neighbouring countries, important nations in that region - peace and security would have important implications," he added.
> 
> At the debate in the General Assembly, the UK also repeated its support to see India on as a permanent member of the Security Council.
> 
> "On the Council's structure, we continue to support permanent membership for Brazil, Germany, India and Japan, as well as permanent representation for Africa," said Philip Parham, deputy envoy to UK.
> 
> "We look forward to working with many of these countries next year when they join the Security Council," he said, referring to the entry of India and Germany on the Council next year as non-permanent members for a two year term.
> 
> While Japan will leave the Council in 2011, Brazil will serve out one more year.
> 
> The UK representative also suggested "an intermediate model" of reform, which would create new seats with a longer mandate than the present two year term.
> 
> Then, at the end of this period, a review would be done to see whether these seats should be turned into permanent ones.
> 
> Pakistan, which objects to India being on the Council, argued that the new council should include a few large states, a number of medium sized States and a majority of smaller States.
> 
> "We support the position of the Organization of Islamic Conference demanding adequate representation of Muslim Ummah in the Security Council," said Sial.


India got good future..................


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## karan.1970

luckyyy said:


> why china didn't veto on the issue..?



It wasnt a resolution. Just words in a statement from the UNSC chair..


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## Ammyy

*If Jammu and Kashmir is no longer dispute 
so here on PDF its also considered as Internal Part of India according to forum rules 

And people causing problem their treated as terrorist *

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## oct605032048

Oh please don't scare me. What China should do to ensuring peace from india in an 'Andian century' ?

Should China cede Chinese white sand to india as tribute and step off the way of your annexation of pakistan for the sound 'Sino-Indian friendship'? 

Should China keep silence when all the Sub-continent state 'self-willingly' join the Indian federation? 

Should China obey if the then Indian government asked Tibet to become the 'buffer region' and make some 'necessary border correction' in Xinjiang as Qing kowtow to the British Empire?


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## huzihaidao12

India's rise? You even do not have a true understanding , well , this is PDF, not on behalf of other Indians.


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## Hyde

DRDO said:


> *If Jammu and Kashmir is no longer dispute
> so here on PDF its also considered as Internal Part of India according to forum rules
> 
> And people causing problem their treated as terrorist *



didn't make sense to me 
why should it become part of forum rules?


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## srgokul

What is more interesting in all these conversations is that both India and Pakistan shoould reevaulate their positions bases on the dividend that each of these countries would reap.

India - given its size and the number of countries around it would not make tangible reductions in its defence budget.
But it would certainly make it to the UN, be recognized as a world power and will be able to gain access to Central asia through Pakistan.


Pakistan will be the biggest benefactor - it would be able to bring down its defence expenditure (obviously will not be able to eliminate it) and will be able to achieve faster economic growth rate.

India will have to uplift 500 MIllion people out of poverty.. wherease Pakistan need to eliminate only 150 million out of poverty..


Any thoughts ?


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## A1Kaid

The fact that China issued separate Visas for Kashmiris states clearly what China's view and policy is on Kashmir. Special political maps used by Chinese institutions both civil and military clearly display Kashmir separate from India.

I think it's naive to believe some last minute drawn up analogy is going to change the minds of Chinese government officials and strategist who have planned for the century.

Chinese media reported published papers by a Chinese think tank which stated in the long run China has no interest in seeing India as a "rising power" and it would be best to eliminate any future threat by India. This can be searched online.


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## Ammyy

Zaki said:


> didn't make sense to me
> why should it become part of forum rules?



Because now Jammu and Kashmir is no longer dispute so if Pakistani member talk about Kashmir so we can also free to talk about Pakistani parts.... right ???

*Pakistani members always give this excuse that J&K is dispute and not a internal part of India but now this excuse no longer available for them *

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## sensenreason

huzihaidao12 said:


> I always hope that China and India to develop a real friendship, so I'd like to communicate with the Indians, but your boy had more than my area, there is no serious attitude, no real understanding, so I doubt we can have a number of valuable exchange, with the mouth will not get anything.



Huzihaidao12, for you serious attitude, understanding and valuable exchange is equal to accepting illegal claims of China over Kashmir and Tibet and gifting Pakistan - Kashmir. This is why you are disappointed by the communication. In your country, you can only read about positions Chinese govt wants you to read and hence you firmly believe what they tell you. Ditto with the Pakistanis except that they receive the sermons from Religious or military leaders. So if you stop doing so after 5-10 years you might develop the understanding of reality and accept India's correct positions. Till then, I brace myself for verbals nuke attacks from Pak-Chinese freinds here...


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## GORKHALI

Yes!i fully agree with DRDO here ,now indeed its india internal affair ,how it deal with kashmir and we should also take care that baluc is their cup of tea ,let them handle.


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## huzihaidao12

sensenreason said:


> Huzihaidao12, for you serious attitude, understanding and valuable exchange is equal to accepting illegal claims of China over Kashmir and Tibet and gifting Pakistan - Kashmir. This is why you are disappointed by the communication. In your country, you can only read about positions Chinese govt wants you to read and hence you firmly believe what they tell you. Ditto with the Pakistanis except that they receive the sermons from Religious or military leaders. So if you stop doing so after 5-10 years you might develop the understanding of reality and accept India's correct positions. Till then, I brace myself for verbals nuke attacks from Pak-Chinese freinds here...



What can I say? You do not have many things in reality. I want to ask next, how do you know that? You've read the Chinese media (both official and private), China's BBS, Chinese newspapers, all your have read?

---------- Post added at 11:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 AM ----------

This is a sad self-righteous, but fortunately it was not China's pathetic.

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## Markus

Very interesting news.

I wonder if Gordon Brown and Obama's visit have got anything to do with this.

Guys - Manmohan SIngh is a great PM, we should give him a second term.

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## shineonyoucrazydiamond

This in indeed a good news. Though the issue still remains with Pakistan, but I don't understand what Pakistan has gained in 60 years of independence struggling for Kashmir? 

Many Pakistanis are of the opinion that if India wants to solve issues with Pakistan it must solve Kashmir issue, but it doesn't make any sense as it doesn't matter to India if the issue is resolved between India and Pakistan..

I am in no favor of Kashmir being part of India, neither I say India should give it away. But Pakistan is loosing a lot in this fight which is not their own..


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## INDIAN007

Markus said:


> Very interesting news.
> 
> I wonder if Gordon Brown and Obama's visit have got anything to do with this.
> 
> Guys - Manmohan SIngh is a great PM, we should give him a second term.



ya agree -> Manmohan singh is doing a great job 

Btw Good news - kashmir is Indeed India's Internal matter Just like Baloch to pak , tibet to china


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## CardSharp

A1Kaid said:


> *The fact that China issued separate Visas for Kashmiris states clearly what China's view and policy is on Kashmir. Special political maps used by Chinese institutions both civil and military clearly display Kashmir separate from India.
> 
> I think it's naive to believe some last minute drawn up analogy is going to change the minds of Chinese government officials and strategist who have planned for the century.
> 
> *Chinese media reported published papers by a Chinese think tank which stated in the long run China has no interest in seeing India as a "rising power" and it would be best to eliminate any future threat by India. This can be searched online.



I agree with the first half but the second half not so much. I don't expect to see China impede India's growth in anyway and we should realize that thinktanks in China hold nowhere near the sway and political power that they do in America.

ps are those soviet troops marching under the brandenburger tor in your avatar?


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## SpArK

Jammu and Kashmir out of U.N. list of disputes ??/

Quite unbelievable. The state which was in a volatile stage during recent time and UN decides this?? 

Also Pakistan has passed resolution to take it up as dispute which was posted earlier 2 days back i guess .

Anyway a nice and wonderful news.. 


All i can say now is.._*Bad boys bad boys whatcha gonna do whatcha gonna do... when we come for you. *_

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## CardSharp

Markus said:


> Very interesting news.
> 
> I wonder if Gordon Brown and Obama's visit have got anything to do with this.
> 
> Guys - Manmohan SIngh is a great PM, we should give him a second term.



Come on man, keep up. The UK PM is David Cameron now, with Nick Clegg as deputy coalition PM.


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## INDIAN007

BENNY said:


> Jammu and Kashmir out of U.N. list of disputes ??/
> 
> Quite unbelievable. The state which was in a volatile stage during recent time and UN decides this??
> 
> Also Pakistan has passed resolution to take it up as dispute which was posted earlier 2 days back i guess .
> 
> Anyway a nice and wonderful news..
> 
> 
> All i can say now is.._*Bad boys bad boys whatcha gonna do whatcha gonna do... when we come for you. *_



Man I love ur Avatar

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## Markus

CardSharp said:


> Come on man, keep up. The UK PM is David Cameron now, with Nick Clegg as deputy coalition PM.



Oops....

Naam mein kya rakha hai, Bhavanao ko samjho yaar.

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## SpArK

*Pak objects to no mention of Kashmir in UN list of disputes*

Pakistan has objected to the exclusion of Kashmir from a list of disputes under the observation of the Security Council as mentioned by the UK's top diplomat in an annual debate on UNSC reforms here.

UK holds the presidency of UNSC this month.

*"Jammu and Kashmir dispute was not mentioned in the context of unresolved long-running situations," said Amjad Hussain B Sial, Pakistan's acting envoy to UN, told the General Assembly, where the debate was held.*

"We understand this was an inadvertent omission, as Jammu and Kashmir is one of the oldest disputes on agenda of the Security Council," he added.

Pakistan has been asking the UN to intervene to help resolve the issue but India has always maintained that it has to be resolved bilaterally between the two countries.

Speaking earlier at the General Assembly, the UK envoy to the UN, Mark Lyall Grant, said that "some long-running situations, including in the Middle East, Cyprus and Western Sahara remain unresolved, as do issues where the Council has become engaged in recent years, including Nepal and Guinea Bissau."

"Huge challenges remain in Sudan, Somalia and the DRC," he added.

Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon had said that the UN will not intervene in Kashmir issue until requested by both the parties -- India and Pakistan.

"As far as this role of good offices is concerned, the United Nations normally takes that initiative when requested by both parties concerned," Ban said in October.

"India and Pakistan, they are neighbouring countries, important nations in that region - peace and security would have important implications," he added.

*At the debate in the General Assembly, the UK also repeated its support to see India on as a permanent member of the Security Council.*

*"On the Council's structure, we continue to support permanent membership for Brazil, Germany, India and Japan, as well as permanent representation for Africa," *said Philip Parham, deputy envoy to UK.

"We look forward to working with many of these countries next year when they join the Security Council," he said, referring to the entry of India and Germany on the Council next year as non-permanent members for a two year term.

While Japan will leave the Council in 2011, Brazil will serve out one more year.

The UK representative also suggested "an intermediate model" of reform, which would create new seats with a longer mandate than the present two year term.

Then, at the end of this period, a review would be done to see whether these seats should be turned into permanent ones.

Pakistan, which objects to India being on the Council, argued that the new council should include a few large states, a number of medium sized States and a majority of smaller States.

"We support the position of the Organization of Islamic Conference demanding adequate representation of Muslim Ummah in the Security Council," said Sial

Pak objects to no mention of Kashmir in UN list of disputes

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## barcelona

CardSharp said:


> Come on man, keep up. The UK PM is David Cameron now, with Nick Clegg as deputy coalition PM.



Add on to u Its already manmohan singh's second term


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## Markus

barcelona said:


> Add on to u Its already manmohan singh's second term



Ok, I was sleeping for the last few years. 

Then he deserves a THIRD TERM.

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## Zizou

And how many International disputes have this double standard useful for nothing organization resolved anyway??? ... If some people were still hoping that innocent blood of Kashmiris mean anything to the international world, this should serve them as a wake up call ... 

For India, they can try sending the rest of their army to J&K as well but they will never win the heart of Kashmiris ... It is all political bullshit ... None of Pakistan, China or India give a damn about innocent people there ... Kashmir is a dispute because of its location .... Anyone with a firm control on it will have a major strategic advantage in Asia ... I say everyone get the hell out of there to India, Pakistan and China and let those innocent souls take a breath of fresh air ... but i know it will never happen nor will this issue ever resolved by talks ... and it is by far the most dangerous place to the safety of this earth as any next arm conflict could very easily spread into a nuclear war and possibly third world war .... Well they can plan all they want but nature has its own plans ... surely one day prayers of those innocent souls will be answered ....


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## CardSharp

Markus said:


> Oops....
> 
> Naam mein kya rakha hai, Bhavanao ko samjho yaar.



Dude please, I don't speak Hindi and you know it, why make things hard for me?

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## gubbi

Anyone got any sauce on whether it was intentional as StreetHawk implied on Page1 or whether it was genuine mistake of omission?

If it was intentional to take Kashmir issue off the list, then what are the implications for the issue as a dispute between India and Pakistan? Would the UN resolutions still hold valid? 

Would there be a fresh start to Indo-Pak talks or would it continue from where it stopped? Would India choose to totally ignore Pakistani calls for resloving the issue?

This raises more questions than settle an issue. IMHO, presently the status quo is more beneficial to India, given the present circumstances.


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## SpArK

CardSharp said:


> Dude please, I don't speak Hindi and you know it, why make things hard for me?



Ok i will translate it for u..

He asked to use imagination and also said what's in a name anyway.

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## gubbi

CardSharp said:


> Dude please, I don't speak Hindi and you know it, why make things hard for me?



He meant, "what's in a name. ignore it. consider my emotions or message though".

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## Veeru

Good news for the world peace.

In future within 5-10 years when our economy grow more and also the world specially EU and US will depend on us for any reason economic, environmental, diplomatic, military etc. then we can dictate our terms more boldly.

And settle the case of Kashmir which is currently under pak's control.


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## Markus

CardSharp said:


> Dude please, I don't speak Hindi and you know it, why make things hard for me?



Oops again, I forgot you are Chinese. Sorry.

All I said was that what's in a name, it dosen't matter if Brown said it or Cameron said it or for that matter even if Blair said it, all matters is that the PM of UK said it.

Maybe there has a deal struck behind the doors, and the recent visits by UK PM and US President may have got to do something with it. Perhaps!


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## INDIAN007

Veeru said:


> Good news for the world peace.
> 
> In future within 5-10 years when our economy grow more and also the world specially EU and US will depend on us for any reason economic, environmental, diplomatic, military etc. then we can dictate our terms more boldly.
> 
> And settle the case of Kashmir which is currently under pak's control.




??? UNDER PAK'S control >? u Talking aBout P.O.K

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## Vimana1

uzifizi said:


> And how many International disputes have this double standard useful for nothing organization resolved anyway??? ... If some people were still hoping that innocent blood of Kashmiris mean anything to the international world, this should serve them as a wake up call ...
> 
> For India, they can try sending the rest of their army to J&K as well but they will never win the heart of Kashmiris ... It is all political bullshit ... None of Pakistan, China or India give a damn about innocent people there ... Kashmir is a dispute because of its location .... Anyone with a firm control on it will have a major strategic advantage in Asia ... I say everyone get the hell out of there to India, Pakistan and China and let those innocent souls take a breath of fresh air ... but i know it will never happen nor will this issue ever resolved by talks ... and it is by far the most dangerous place to the safety of this earth as any next arm conflict could very easily spread into a nuclear war and possibly third world war .... Well they can plan all they want but nature has its own plans ... surely one day prayers of those innocent souls will be answered ....




The real truth of Kashmir is about water and who controls it as well as the obvious national pride issue due to the countless deaths both in Pakistan and India for this cause. The only solution is the one proposed by Musharraf and Vajpayee that will end this saga and make life better for Kashmiris and for South asia.

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## barcelona

CardSharp said:


> Dude please, I don't speak Hindi and you know it, why make things hard for me?



He is sayin wats there in name


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## CardSharp

Yeah alright I get your point. (thanks for the translations everyone) I was too concerned with preciseness and technically correctness, I suppose.


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## Jackdaws

I am curious as to why China did not ensure it is in the list of disputes? Did China get anything in return?


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## subject17

Who cares UN anyway? does it makes any difference to the JK problem, nothing.


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## indushek

Eight pages of discussions and all that has come up is whose is bigger?? mine or yours. Thanks god even then it was in a more or less civilized manner. 

On the topic it is surprising to me that SM Krishna had the balls (sorry to say but Indian Govt does act and look spineless wrt China) to say this. 

It is always important between two nations to have no communication gap, let us see India has stated its intentions. The reaction from Chinese would explain their stance.


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## karan.1970

I think the world is realizing that the defunct UN resolution, that gave Pakistan an opportunity to keep raising the bogey of plebiscite and hence torpedoing any chances of a Kashmir solution. The sooner this is formally thrown out (i mean the K Resolution) the earlier we will solve this 60 year old issue..


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## Always Neutral

CardSharp said:


> Come on man, keep up. The UK PM is David Cameron now, with Nick Clegg as deputy coalition PM.



Thanks for pointing out.

Markus is really out of date.


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## Always Neutral

Markus said:


> Very interesting news.
> 
> I wonder if Gordon Brown and Obama's visit have got anything to do with this.
> 
> Guys - Manmohan SIngh is a great PM, we should give him a second term.



Wake up and smell the coffee. Gordon Brown is history.


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## genmirajborgza786

good news  it was long overdue i am happy External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna : one word simply brilliant ! 

India Canada is with you 

http://www.crossed-flag-pins.com/Friendship-Pins/India/Flag-Pins-India-Canada.jpg


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## Jackdaws

Apparently - it is a clerical error. Indian Govt. brought dispute to UN and still claims all of J&K including Gilgit, Baltistan and Pak-administered Kashmir.

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## Always Neutral

CardSharp said:


> Yeah alright I get your point. (thanks for the translations everyone) I was too concerned with preciseness and technically correctness, I suppose.



CS,

I agree with you and this forum from the days of MuradK, AA and Neo has now become more abt gossip and less abt defense.

Mods please get the 16 years old from here till they prove themselves.

regards

Ps anyone wants to discuss midgets ps pm me


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## Guli Danda

Well,i believe India's rising importance and status made this happen.
Also maybe USA supported India for Kashmir indirectly.

Because in the present condition ,it could have been a disputed area.

nonetheless,whatever is the reason,its a victory for us!

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## Markus

Always Neutral said:


> Wake up and smell the coffee. Gordon Brown is history.



Do read post# 72 as well.

Now stop pointing the same thing and comment something on the topic of this thread, if you have anything at all, that is.


----------



## karan.1970

Always Neutral said:


> CS,
> 
> I agree with you and this forum from the days of MuradK, AA and Neo has now become more abt gossip and less abt defense.
> 
> *Mods please get the 16 years old from here till they prove themselves.*
> regards
> 
> Ps anyone wants to discuss midgets ps pm me




Hope you are refering to the mental age and not physical age

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## Areesh

Jackdaws said:


> Apparently - it is a clerical error. Indian Govt. brought dispute to UN and still claims all of J&K including Gilgit, Baltistan and Pak-administered Kashmir.



Indeed it is. Soon will be rectified. Nothing from the UN officially that it is excluding Kashmir out of disputes. Only Bharati media and web sites quoting it. Anyways it looks like a clerical mistake and will be soon rectified by UN. 

Fan boys on the other hand can jump all they want. It is also a defeat for GOI's stance for Kashmir as you pointed out.


----------



## Always Neutral

Markus said:


> Do read post# 72 as well.
> 
> Now stop pointing the same thing and comment something on the topic of this thread, if you have anything at all, that is.



post 72 is gibberish. As i said Markus ps post some serious defence news or just go back to ur playboy magazines. Mr MMS is already on his second term and he has made it clear that he will not go for a third one.

Regards


----------



## SpArK

Areesh said:


> Indeed it is. Soon will be rectified. Nothing from the UN officially that it is excluding Kashmir out of disputes. *Only Bharati media and web sites quoting it*. Anyways it looks like a clerical mistake and will be soon rectified by UN.



Our media is too fast.. Just wait and it will appear soon on ur media too.. so no worries.


----------



## Always Neutral

Areesh said:


> Indeed it is. Soon will be rectified. Nothing from the UN officially that it is excluding Kashmir out of disputes. Only Bharati media and web sites quoting it. Anyways it looks like a clerical mistake and will be soon rectified by UN.
> 
> Fan boys on the other hand can jump all they want. It is also a defeat for GOI's stance for Kashmir as you pointed out.



Areesh, I agree with u, but I think after the EU report, I dont care much about Kashmir on your side or the Indian side.

Regards


----------



## SEAL

If its true then what about P0K.

Now we can link our highways, railway with China and we can deploy as many PLA troops we want in so called P0K i hope Indian establishment wont have any problems.


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## Markus

Always Neutral said:


> post 72 is gibberish. As i said Markus ps post some serious defence news or just go back to ur playboy magazines. Mr MMS is already on his second term and he has made it clear that he will not go for a third one.
> 
> Regards



This is what happens when you read intermittent posts and start commenting.

If you go through all of the last 2 or 3 pages and all my posts. you will realize that I said I made a mistake, he deserves a THIRD TERM and AICC should convince him to take up the same, if he gets a chance.

Now, you should stop dancing around semantics and try to understand the point, also, you yourself have contributed nothing to the thread topic so far and telling me to post serious defence news. 

Why dont you just get the point and learn to move on?

Regards!


----------



## Areesh

BENNY said:


> Our media is too fast.. Just wait and it will appear soon on ur media too.. so no worries.



Your media is too fast that it is accepting the control of rivals of India on so called Indian territory. 

So much for the Pakistan ......... Kashmir dear.


----------



## SpArK

Areesh said:


> Your media is too fast that it is accepting the control of rivals of India on so called Indian territory.
> 
> So much for the Pakistan ......... Kashmir dear.



We were accepting the LoC as international border since the Musharaff times. Well this decision works just fine for us. Integrating Azad Kashmir and Balgit to here is just a fantasy dream and we are not for it.

We are happy with what we have..

_Just live and let live._


----------



## genmirajborgza786

Areesh said:


> Indeed it is. Soon will be rectified. Nothing from the UN officially that it is excluding Kashmir out of disputes. Only Bharati media and web sites quoting it. Anyways it looks like a clerical mistake and will be soon rectified by UN.
> 
> Fan boys on the other hand can jump all they want. It is also a defeat for GOI's stance for Kashmir as you pointed out.



specially for you my friend
regard's
borgza

Jammu and Kashmir removed from list of disputes under UN ! 

ISLAMABAD, Nov 15 (APP): The United Nations in a dramatic way removed, &#8220;Kashmir dispute from its list of &#8220; unresolved &#8220; issues that paramounts to negation of the indigenous freedom movement of the Kashmiris.According to a private news channel, the omission of Jammu and Kashmir from the list of disputes under the observation of the UN Security Council was noticed by Pakistan whose envoy has lodged a protest on the move.



&#8220;Jammu and Kashmir dispute was not mentioned in the context of unresolved long-running situations,&#8221; said Amjad Hussain B Sial, Pakistan&#8217;s Acting envoy to UN.
&#8220;We understand this was an inadvertent omission, as Jammu and Kashmir is one of the oldest disputes on agenda of the Security Council,&#8221; he added.
Sial was speaking at the UN General Assembly session, which was discussing the functioning and reform of the Security Council. It was organised by the UK that holds the presidency of the Security Council this month.
Pakistan has been asking the UN to intervene to help resolve the issue but India has always maintained that it has to be resolved bilaterally between the two countries and without mediation of third party. 



Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency )


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## Areesh

BENNY said:


> We were accepting the LoC as international border since the Musharaff times. Well this decision works just fine for us. Integrating Azad Kashmir and Balgit to here is just a fantasy dream and we are not for it.
> 
> We are happy with what we have..
> 
> _Just live and let live._



Sorry benny. Replace we with I. GOI doesn't hold such stance. They don't agree with you.


----------



## Always Neutral

Markus said:


> This is what happens when you read intermittent posts and start commenting.
> 
> If you go through all of the last 2 or 3 pages and all my posts. you will realize that I said I made a mistake, he deserves a THIRD TERM.
> 
> Now, you should stop dancing around semantics and try to understand the point, also, you yourself have contributed nothing to the thread topic so far and telling me to post serious defence news.
> 
> Why dont you just get the point and learn to move on?
> 
> Regards!



You dont know who the PM of UK is ? U infact don't even know how many terms ur own PM has done?

WTF are u doing on this forum. (ok not my call)

A respected Chinese member has to correct U?

How old are u ?

Regards


----------



## Areesh

genmirajborgza786 said:


> spacialy for you
> 
> Jammu and Kashmir removed from list of disputes under UN !



As I said it might be clerical mistake. Would wait for any press release from the UN itself that it has remove the Kashmir from the disputes.


----------



## SpArK

Areesh said:


> Sorry benny. Replace we with I. GOI doesn't hold such stance. They don't agree with you.



Just refer to Musharaff formula and Indian stances during that time.. we have agreed it long time back.

We dont have much territorial ambitions other than what we have now.

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## Guli Danda

Always Neutral said:


> You dont know who the PM of UK is ? U infact don't even know how many terms ur own PM has done?
> 
> WTF are u doing on this forum. (ok not my call)
> 
> A respected Chinese member has to correct U?
> 
> How old are u ?
> 
> Regards



What do we have to do with PM of UK?
He doesn't hold much importance.

As for the term of our PM.
Everyone makes mistakes.

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## Areesh

BENNY said:


> Just refer to Musharaff formula and Indian stances during that time.. we have agreed it long time back.
> 
> We dont have much territorial ambitions other than what we have now.



Many things happened after those Musharraf's formulas benny. GOI stayed it's old stance about Kashmir. No change.


----------



## Guli Danda

Areesh said:


> As I said it might be clerical mistake. Would wait for any press release from the UN itself that it has remove the Kashmir from the disputes.



There are so many sources available now.
Enjoy your own Pakistani source.

*Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan&#039;s Premier NEWS Agency ) - Jammu and Kashmir removed from list of disputes under UN*


----------



## SpArK

Areesh said:


> As I said it might be clerical mistake. Would wait for any press release from the UN itself that it has remove the Kashmir from the disputes.



Yes it could be a clerical mistake.. Lets hope that the one who was busy typing the report get fired and the update is put up in media fast.. no worries


----------



## Always Neutral

BENNY said:


> Just refer to Musharaff formula and Indian stances during that time.. we have agreed it long time back.
> 
> We dont have much territorial ambitions other than what we have now.



Who is going to disarm LET and HUM? I think the most pragmatic leader by words is Gen. M.

India has to swallow its pride and give GOP a life line.

No cold start threat.

Regards


----------



## Markus

Always Neutral said:


> You dont know who the PM of UK is ? U infact don't even know how many terms ur own PM has done?



Mistakes happen and have been rectified.



> WTF are u doing on this forum. (*ok not my call*)



If its not your call, then shut up and report the post.



> A respected Chinese member has to correct U?



Yes, very nice of him.




> How old are u ?



None of your business.



> Regards



(No) Regards!

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## SpArK

Areesh said:


> Many things happened after those Musharraf's formulas benny. GOI stayed it's old stance about Kashmir. No change.



That just need common sense. All the arguments were to counter the point of Pakistan's stances.

I know you very well know if India been given an offer by Pakistan to convert LoC into IB , India would very well welcome it. We want the issue get over and move along with life as much as we do.

We are not going to change our stances anytime from now. People who are unhappy with India can always revert back pre-partition exercise .. moving to place they like..

It happened before, it can happen again..


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## Peacefulll

I don't believe much in this "clerical mistake" angle myself. These are not like some government office with babus pounding away on typewriters. There are multiple levels of cross verification and review before final presentation. In my view, this is to send a subtle (not so) message across.

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## Always Neutral

Guli Danda said:


> What do we have to do with PM of UK?
> He doesn't hold much importance.
> 
> As for the term of our PM.
> Everyone makes mistakes.



Ur such a liar?

How many times did u replay the tapes where our PM stated what was music to ur ears in Bangalore?

Regards


----------



## WHF

Black Blood said:


> J&K is an issue which can result in *Billions of deaths in this region* - you say its not important - quite naive.



How?? population of pakistan is only 170 million...

Aaj bahut hungama hona hai wahan...


----------



## SpArK

Always Neutral said:


> Ur such a liar?
> 
> How many times did u replay the tapes where our PM stated what was music to ur ears in Bangalore?
> 
> Regards



Mr Perfect sir, typo errors are common to all. 

David cameron or james cameroon or camaron diaz or david brown or a chocolate brownie.. lets just stay on the topic please!

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## Always Neutral

BENNY said:


> Mr Perfect sir, typo errors are common to all.
> 
> David cameron or james cameroon or camaron diaz or david brown or a chocolate brownie.. lets just stay on the topic please!



There is a difference between Cameron Diaz and Gordon Brown? If you can't get it have a beer.

I must now get back to the topic. UN did not mention it because of the shimla agreement.

Regards


----------



## Guli Danda

Always Neutral said:


> Ur such a liar?
> 
> How many times did u replay the tapes where our PM stated what was music to ur ears in Bangalore?
> 
> Regards




What ya mean!?
UK has any (if no) importance?
Puhleeeeeeeeeez,you are still living in the 19th 20th century?
Why was he singing the song?your PM(which was music to our ears)?

You know why..

Our PM didn't visit with his biggest delegation ever to UK ,did he?
But it was the opposite rather!


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## SpArK

Always Neutral said:


> There is a difference between Cameron Diaz and Gordon Brown? If you can't get it have a beer.
> 
> I must now get back to the topic. UN did not mention it because of the shimla agreement.
> 
> Regards



Im sorry to hurt ur feelings.. 

Beer?  hell yes.. not at this hour though.. 

And thanks for pointing the difference..

Yes lets get back to the topic


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## Ammyy

*Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 55 (28 members and 27 guests)*


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## Chouhan

In current scenario, and the developments which have happened in *** (all those extremism injected into the blood of people of ***), it is better for India to leave it with Pakistan.

Those area are full of fanatic Mullahs and Terrorists. If we demand for it, we are demanding one Pain for our ***. Its better we leave this gangrene with Pakistan.

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## Always Neutral

Guli Danda said:


> What ya mean!?
> UK has any (if no) importance?
> Puhleeeeeeeeeez,you are still living in the 19th 20th century?
> Why was he singing the song?your PM(which was music to our ears)?
> 
> You know why..
> 
> Our PM didn't visit with his biggest delegation ever to UK ,did he?
> But it was the opposite rather!



Again of the topic but why do asians pay GBP 20 k to come to Uk illegally? btw i think they are lovely people and have a lovely culture. Lets get back to Kashmir and as i said its all abt water? Can u contribute or just gossip?

Regards


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## genmirajborgza786

Areesh said:


> As I said it might be clerical mistake. Would wait for any press release from the UN itself that it has remove the Kashmir from the disputes.



did you even bother to check the source that i provided if not check it again

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## Areesh

BENNY said:


> That just need common sense. All the arguments were to counter the point of Pakistan's stances.
> 
> I know you very well know if India been given an offer by Pakistan to convert LoC into IB , India would very well welcome it. We want the issue get over and move along with life as much as we do.
> 
> We are not going to change our stances anytime from now. People who are unhappy with India can always revert back pre-partition exercise .. moving to place they like..
> 
> It happened before, it can happen again..



The difference is that I am talking about the present stance of GOI on Kashmir and you are talking about probabilities. Would be better if we both align ourselves with the present stances of our respective governments than discussing the probabilities. 

@ genmirajborgza786

Yes I checked it.


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## GUNNER

As far as the report is concerned, it is clear that it isn't the ommission of Kashmir as a dispute from the UN agenda but ommission of Kashmir from a statement or report by UK envoy to UN. Whether it was inadvertent or planned is another issue.

If it was inadvertent, then it will be rectified. If it was planned, even then it should not come as a surprise given the current geo-politics.

The fact remains that it is a dispute, acknowledged very recently by Mr Manmohan Singh, which needs to be resolved and that too between Pakistan and India. The western world will take sides as it sees fit and beneficial. And will continue to do so as long as we remain at loggerheads with each other. 

It rests with the two governments to move forward on the issue and on the people to press for it.

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## Always Neutral

Guli Danda said:


> *Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 56 (28 members and 28 guests)*



Ur all Hot air and no contribution. I would love some views on the following?

1. Can India afford to give up the waters in Kashmir?
2. How long can GOP sustain this war given its present finances?
3. If India wins the next water war (kishen) what alternative does the GOP have ?

Regards


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## WHF

SMC said:


> *Considering the directions in which Pakistan China relations are heading*, it's quite clear who's the one having dreams.



Well one dreaming bubble bursted in UN tday when none else than pakistani diplomat objected to the removal of kashmir issue from disputed list..Seems indian diplomacy is working..

On a larger point u think china is going fight with india for pakistan??They can try to black mail us during peace times but the day we start shelling, china will be a *neutral neighbour and active businessman*..Hope u understand..


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## luckyyy

BENNY said:


> We were accepting the LoC as international border since the Musharaff times. Well this decision works just fine for us. Integrating Azad Kashmir and Balgit to here is just a fantasy dream and we are not for it.
> 
> We are happy with what we have..
> 
> _Just live and let live._



i think removing kashmir from U.N. list of disputes is a step forward making LoC as international border..

been the parmanet member of UNSC , even chine didn't oppose the move , as they will also gain to get a part of kashmir ...

and even pakistan not making loud noise on the move , as the move will also benificial to them to get the chinese investement into G&B and a direct transport link ...

*i think move is not sudden and the concern parties were all well taken into cofidence and agreeed ....*

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## Infinite Sapience

Always Neutral said:


> Who is going to disarm LET and HUM? I think the most pragmatic leader by words is Gen. M.
> 
> *India has to swallow its pride and give GOP a life line.
> *
> No cold start threat.
> 
> Regards



If thats your argument 
But then would you also suggest China handing over Lake Manasarovar or for that matter Tibet Autonomous region to Pakistan, since Indus(Pakistan's lifeline) originates there?


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## roach

Always Neutral said:


> Ur all Hot air and no contribution. I would love some views on the following?
> 
> 1. Can India afford to give up the waters in Kashmir?
> 2. How long can GOP sustain this war given its present finances?
> 3. If India wins the next water war (kishen) what alternative does the GOP have ?
> 
> Regards



A.1. Yes we can afford to give up the Water, but having all that leverage over Pakistan is kinda awesome from a strategic POV.

A.2 By 'this war' do you mean Kashmir? Um,,,forever? Not too expensive to maintain a few dozed extra CRPF battalions....

A.3 Did not understand the question buddy


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## Always Neutral

Infinite Sapience said:


> If thats your argument
> But then would you also suggest China handing over Lake Manasarovar or for that matter Tibet Autonomous region to Pakistan, since Indus(Pakistan's lifeline) originates there?



Why should they?

They took it by strength? Why dont u try the same?

U are giving a life line by no COLD START and they should dis-arm LET in favor.


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## Guli Danda

Always Neutral said:


> Ur all Hot air and no contribution. I would love some views on the following?
> 
> 1. Can India afford to give up the waters in Kashmir?
> 2. How long can GOP sustain this war given its present finances?
> 3. If India wins the next water war (kishen) what alternative does the GOP have ?
> 
> Regards



Those GOP questions,should be answered by Pakistanis,isn't it?

For the water,
India will never give it up,i am sure.
And Water holds just about the same importance as territory does to India,if not more.
Water is causing concern for Pak as well.
Thats why i expressed my surprise that J&K has been removed from the UN list of disputed areas.
Maybe the magic of India's rising importance and economic influence.
A victory is a victory,nonetheless..


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## Areesh

GUNNER said:


> As far as the report is concerned, it is clear that it isn't the ommission of Kashmir as a dispute from the UN agenda but ommission of Kashmir from a statement or report by UK envoy to UN. Whether it was inadvertent or planned is another issue.
> 
> If it was inadvertent, then it will be rectified. If it was planned, even then it should not come as a surprise given the current geo-politics.
> 
> The fact remains that it is a dispute, acknowledged very recently by Mr Manmohan Singh, which needs to be resolved and that too between Pakistan and India. The western world will take sides as it sees fit and beneficial. And will continue to do so as long as we remain at loggerheads with each other.
> 
> It rests with the two governments to move forward on the issue and on the people to press for it.



Very well defined Gunner. Thanks. Hopefully it would help many people here on this forum.


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## Ammyy

Always Neutral said:


> Ur all Hot air and no contribution. I would love some views on the following?
> 
> 1. Can India afford to give up the waters in Kashmir?
> 2. How long can GOP sustain this war given its present finances?
> 3. If India wins the next water war (kishen) what alternative does the GOP have ?
> 
> Regards



Water ??? Old topic that was already discussed
Just check your own minister what told about this issue

Please stay to topic ... I know its hard just try


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## Awesome

Just heard on Geo, that the UN has apologized for the mistake and will be correcting it shortly 

After going through 10 pages of overzealous hormonal rejoicing I recall this old Punjabi punch line "Naatay tohtay reh gayeee"  



> "We understand this was an inadvertent omission, as Jammu and Kashmir is one of the oldest disputes on agenda of the Security Council," he said.


Pak protests Kashmir deletion on UNSC

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## Always Neutral

roach said:


> A.1. Yes we can afford to give up the Water, but having all that leverage over Pakistan is kinda awesome from a strategic POV.
> 
> UR THE MOST NAIVE INDIAN ?
> 
> A.2 By 'this war' do you mean Kashmir? Um,,,forever? Not too expensive to maintain a few dozed extra CRPF battalions....
> 
> THIS QUESTION WAS MEANT FOR PAKISTANI FRIENDS BUT UR JUST TO NAIVE?
> 
> A.3 Did not understand the question buddy



AS I SAID TOO MANY 16 YEARS OLD THRIVE HERE. GOOGLE AND FIND OUT THE LATEST ARBITRATION ON WATER.


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## CardSharp

WHF said:


> Well one dreaming bubble bursted in UN tday when none else than pakistani diplomat objected to the removal of kashmir issue from disputed list..Seems indian diplomacy is working..
> 
> On a larger point u think china is going fight with india for pakistan??They can try to black mail us during peace times but the day we start shelling, china will be a *neutral neighbour and active businessman*..Hope u understand..



ahahahahaha seriously? You are making allegations of cowardice? Let's not get a swelled head.


----------



## Ammyy

GUNNER said:


> As far as the report is concerned, it is clear that it isn't the ommission of Kashmir as a dispute from the UN agenda but ommission of Kashmir from a statement or report by UK envoy to UN. Whether it was inadvertent or planned is another issue.
> 
> *If it was inadvertent, then it will be rectified. If it was planned, even then it should not come as a surprise given the current geo-politics.*
> 
> The fact remains that it is a dispute, acknowledged very recently by Mr Manmohan Singh, which needs to be resolved and that too between Pakistan and India. The western world will take sides as it sees fit and beneficial. And will continue to do so as long as we remain at loggerheads with each other.
> 
> It rests with the two governments to move forward on the issue and on the people to press for it.



UN not run on your personal views 

Nice try to use the statement at right place but buddy he said it because we want peace in J&K that doesn't matter its remain dispute


*J&K is internal part of India*
Jai Hind

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## Guli Danda

Asim Aquil said:


> Just heard on Geo, that the UN has apologized for the mistake and will be correcting it shortly
> 
> After going through 10 pages of overzealous hormonal rejoicing I recall this old Punjabi punch line "Naatay tohtay reh gayeee"
> 
> 
> Pak protests Kashmir deletion on UNSC


Any sources?

Pakistani media..we know..
as many Pakistanis asked about various sources.

Btw,you don't expect UN to make such a big mistake!

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## WHF

Areesh said:


> Post reported. So bye from all the Pakistani members As$hole.



U dont have to represent ur self on all pakistani members...
I think no sane pakistani would agree with u as you *said pakistan will deploy PLA chinese army in pakistan*

wat a shame less creature u are pakistan should be ashamed for the likes of u, u dont even respect ur country's freedom and sovernity..

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## Chouhan

*JAMMU AND kASHMIR IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF INDIA *

IT WAS.....
IT IS.........
AND WILL REMAIN FOREVER...................

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## Chouhan

WHF said:


> U dont have to represent ur self on all pakistani members...
> I think no sane pakistani would agree with u as you *said pakistan will deploy PLA chinese army in pakistan*
> 
> wat a shame less creature u are pakistan should be ashamed for the likes of u, u dont even respect ur country's freedom and sovernity..



I am telling you......... One day they will not hesitate to even handover entire Pakistan (forget _***_) to China, just to show us down.


----------



## Awesome

Guli Danda said:


> Any sources?
> 
> Pakistani media..we know..
> as many Pakistanis asked about various sources.
> 
> Btw,you don't expect UN to make such a big mistake!


It was a statement being made by a UK diplomat.

Whatever the reason, he was reading off of a list, mistake or intentional, the UNSC resolution still holds and cannot be removed just like that.

Official UN clarification will come as well... Its stupid to believe otherwise.

I mean whats the alternative? They thought no one would notice and can be simply removed by not mentioning it?


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## Infinite Sapience

Always Neutral said:


> Why should they?
> 
> They took it by strength? Why dont u try the same?
> 
> U are giving a life line by no COLD START and they should dis-arm LET in favor.



Your argument does not hold water.

You are suggesting since Pakistan played dirty by sponsoring terrorists, India should call parley and give Pakistan something in return for Pakistan to disband its terrorist organisations? 

Wonder what western civilization would give up for truce with Al Qaida?


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## Awesome

Chouhan said:


> I am telling you......... One day they will not hesitate to even handover entire Pakistan (forget _***_) to China, just to show us down.


You can continue living in your la la land.


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## GUNNER

*@ Mods:* 

Kindly change the title of the thread which is misleading and incorrect. 

At best it can be;

Pakistan protests at no mention of Kashmir in UN report


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## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> You can continue living in your la la land.



You just wait for official statement........

We are happy in our la la land

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## justanobserver

GUNNER said:


> Kindly change the title of the thread which is misleading and incorrect.
> 
> At best it can be;
> 
> Pakistan protests at no mention of Kashmir in UN report



What is wrong with the title? Your media is reporting the same :



> *
> Jammu and Kashmir removed from list of disputes under UN !*
> 
> ISLAMABAD, Nov 15 (APP): The United Nations in a dramatic way removed, &#8220;Kashmir dispute from its list of &#8220; unresolved &#8220; issues that paramounts to negation of the indigenous freedom movement of the Kashmiris.According to a private news channel, the omission of Jammu and Kashmir from the list of disputes under the observation of the UN Security Council was noticed by Pakistan whose envoy has lodged a protest on the move.
> 
> 
> 
> &#8220;Jammu and Kashmir dispute was not mentioned in the context of unresolved long-running situations,&#8221; said Amjad Hussain B Sial, Pakistan&#8217;s Acting envoy to UN.
> &#8220;We understand this was an inadvertent omission, as Jammu and Kashmir is one of the oldest disputes on agenda of the Security Council,&#8221; he added.
> Sial was speaking at the UN General Assembly session, which was discussing the functioning and reform of the Security Council. It was organised by the UK that holds the presidency of the Security Council this month.
> Pakistan has been asking the UN to intervene to help resolve the issue but India has always maintained that it has to be resolved bilaterally between the two countries and without mediation of third party.
> 
> 
> 
> Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency )

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## Abhishek_

well going by history CS, china has remained neutral during indo-pak conflicts.
I'm unsure if there was a subtle msg in WHF's post but I'm least bothered about it.


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## GUNNER

justanobserver said:


> What is wrong with the title? Your media is reporting the same :



So now APP is a credible source for you? Anyways you may interpret it the way you like but if you read the story carefully, you will know why the titile is incorrect.


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## CardSharp

Abhishek_ said:


> well going by history CS, china has remained neutral during indo-pak conflicts.
> I'm unsure if there was a subtle msg in WHF's post but I'm least bothered about it.



Ridiculous, but he's been banned, I'll just chalk it to stupidity.


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## Veeru

*Pakistan objects to Kashmir omission in UN list of disputes*

*UNITED NATIONS: Pakistan has objected to the exclusion of Kashmir from a list of disputes under the observation of the Security Council as mentioned by the UK's top diplomat in an annual debate on UNSC reforms .*

UK holds the presidency of UNSC this month. "Jammu and Kashmir dispute was not mentioned in the context of unresolved long-running situations," said Amjad Hussain B Sial, Pakistan's acting envoy to UN, told the General Assembly, where the debate was held. "We understand this was an inadvertent omission, as Jammu and Kashmir is one of the oldest disputes on agenda of the Security Council," he added.

Pakistan has been asking the UN to intervene to help resolve the issue but India has always maintained that it has to be resolved bilaterally between the two countries.

*Speaking earlier at the General Assembly, the UK envoy to the UN, Mark Lyall Grant, said that "some long-running situations, including in the Middle East, Cyprus and Western Sahara remain unresolved, as do issues where the Council has become engaged in recent years, including Nepal and Guinea Bissau."*

"Huge challenges remain in Sudan, Somalia and the DRC," he added.

Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon had said that the UN will not intervene in Kashmir issue until requested by both the parties, India and Pakistan.

"As far as this role of good offices is concerned, the United Nations normally takes that initiative when requested by both parties concerned," Ban said in October.

"India and Pakistan, they are neighbouring countries, important nations in that region, peace and security would have important implications," he added.

*At the debate in the General Assembly, the UK also repeated its support to see India on as a permanent member of the Security Council.*

"On the Council's structure, we continue to support permanent membership for Brazil, Germany, India and Japan, as well as permanent representation for Africa," said Philip Parham, deputy envoy to UK.

"We look forward to working with many of these countries next year when they join the Security Council," he said, referring to the entry of India and Germany on the Council next year as non-permanent members for a two year term.

While Japan will leave the Council in 2011, Brazil will serve out one more year.

The UK representative also suggested "an intermediate model" of reform, which would create new seats with a longer mandate than the present two year term.

Then, at the end of this period, a review would be done to see whether these seats should be turned into permanent ones.

Pakistan, which objects to India being on the Council, argued that the new council should include a few large states, a number of medium sized States and a majority of smaller States.

"We support the position of the Organization of Islamic Conference demanding adequate representation of Muslim Ummah in the Security Council," said Sial. Monitoring Desk 

*Pakistani News channel*

.:: SAMAA - Pakistan objects to Kashmir omission in UN list of disputes

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## justanobserver

GUNNER said:


> So *now* APP is a credible source for you?



The Hindu is credible for me 


The Hindu : News / National : Jammu and Kashmir out of U.N. list of disputes

I posted APP due the 'stupid bharati media' allegations.


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## Hindustani

So is it gonna stay as it is now? Any other news on it?


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## Ammyy

*Kashmir Removed From UN List Of Disputes*

United Nations:* In a significant development,* Jammu and Kashmir has been removed from the UN list of unresolved disputes, giving a setback to Pakistan which has been asking the world body to intervene on the issue. 

Kashmir removed from un list of disputes - News | Pictures | Videos


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## Jade

GUNNER said:


> As far as the report is concerned, it is clear that it isn't the ommission of Kashmir as a dispute from the UN agenda but ommission of Kashmir from a statement or report by UK envoy to UN. Whether it was inadvertent or planned is another issue.
> 
> If it was inadvertent, then it will be rectified. If it was planned, even then it should not come as a surprise given the current geo-politics.
> 
> The fact remains that it is a dispute, acknowledged very recently by Mr Manmohan Singh, which needs to be resolved and that too between Pakistan and India. The western world will take sides as it sees fit and beneficial. And will continue to do so as long as we remain at loggerheads with each other.
> 
> It rests with the two governments to move forward on the issue and on the people to press for it.




Yes, it might be the case that Kashmir has not been removed from the list of disputes of UN, but this explains how the world especially the western world thinks of Kashmir, a bilateral issue between India and Pakistan.

This is a clear endorsement of Indias position


----------



## KS

So can we say that Indian Diplomats are one of the best,if not he best in the world ??

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## Stealth

@ PAKISTAN especially Muslims..

till thn we will not understand what is CLEARLY MENTION in "Surah Bakra".. we will never ever win or even achieve any goal!! "QUOTED MY WORDS".

World all enemies of Muslims play strong game against all those countries who are enough alone powerfull to tackle any bid deal like PAKISTAN!

USA, ISREAL, INDIA and all othercountries who are real enemies of Pakistan doing this... BS is a small country dictate SUPER POWER!! .. simply its a block between ISREAL - INDIA and INDIA - USA and ISREAL - US simple! Unitednation do what US want and US did what Isreal want!! simple

leave this kashmir issue etc remove from the list i xpected this more thn that!


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## KS

Areesh said:


> Indeed it is. Soon will be rectified. Nothing from the UN officially that it is excluding Kashmir out of disputes. *Only Bharati media and web sites quoting it.* Anyways it looks like a clerical mistake and will be soon rectified by UN.



UNs real face | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

J&K removed from UN disputes list

Whose the fanboi now ??

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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> UN&#8217;s real face | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online
> 
> J&K removed from UN disputes list
> 
> Whose the fanboi now ??



First read all of my posts. Than after that read guuner posts. Than read Asim Aqil posts. Than drink a glass of water and than try to understand what is going on in here. 

By the way in response to my post about Bharati sites you also quoted one Pakistani and one Bharati site. Anyways try to understand what is going in here nad than celebrate.


----------



## KS

GUNNER said:


> As far as the report is concerned, it is clear that it isn't the ommission of Kashmir as a dispute from the UN agenda but ommission of Kashmir from a statement or report by UK envoy to UN. Whether it was inadvertent or planned is another issue.



It isnt an omission perse. But just a harbinger of bigger things to come.



GUNNER said:


> If it was inadvertent, then it will be rectified. If it was planned, even then it should not come as a surprise given the current geo-politics.



I dont believe in this _inadvertent _BS. As one member said this is not a district leverl office where 60 year olds pound furiously on the keyboard.
There are many levels of cross-verification and going over before it is presented.



GUNNER said:


> The fact remains that it is a dispute, acknowledged very recently by Mr Manmohan Singh, which needs to be resolved and that too between Pakistan and India. The western world will take sides as it sees fit and beneficial. And will continue to do so as long as we remain at loggerheads with each other.
> 
> It rests with the two governments to move forward on the issue and on the people to press for it.



It is a dispute. But the Indian meaning for the word is _different_ from the Pakistani meaning of the word.

In Indian context it is used to denote strictly the Disputed areas of "Azad " Kashmir and the Northern Areas which India considers to be under the "illegal" ocupation of Pakistan ,*NOT* J&K.

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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> Just heard on Geo, that the UN has apologized for the mistake and will be correcting it shortly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "We understand this was an inadvertent omission, as Jammu and Kashmir is one of the oldest disputes on agenda of the Security Council," *he* said.
Click to expand...


"HE" as in the Pakistani Ambassador to UN...so what weight does it carry..

Anyway good job in saving your own face after the nose-cut.

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## Spring Onion

*UK dwara parmanrit *


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## Gandhi G in da house

oops !


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## karan.1970

Jana said:


> *UK dwara parmanrit *



UK has the chair this month of the UNSC... ahem...!


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## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> First read all of my posts. Than after that read guuner posts. Than read Asim Aqil posts. Than drink a glass of water and than try to understand what is going on in here.
> 
> By the way in response to my post about Bharati sites you also quoted one Pakistani and one Bharati site. Anyways try to understand what is going in here nad than celebrate.



News is that Jammu and Kashmir is out to U. N. list of disputes 

It doesn't matter to any other country cause no one consider J&K dispute (except you) so 


*Even UN news site quoted Indian News in their own site *

United Nations News

Do you think they gonna quote wrong news ?????

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## Man of Thoughts

doesn't matter if it is out of UN council as the UN resolution had no value for Indian in the past so i am not surprised that it out of list of disputed regions....

The only thing that matter is We claimed Kashmir as our Part We are claiming it as our part and we will claim it as our part till dooms day....
Yes,we are in no position as you(Indian) are but time never remains same and hope never dies 
Not in 10 years not in 15 not in 20 not in 50 years Lets consider not in next 100 years but one day for sure we will let it free Thats what i believe


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## karan.1970

If, hypothetically Kashmir actually is removed from the list of open disputes by te UN, I think the only difference will be on Defence.pk. That too only to the extent of Pakistani members having one less excuse in justifying the Pakistan sponsored insurgency/militancy/freedom fight  in Kasmir. 

Because even without this action, for all intents and purposes, the UN resolution on Kashmir is dead as a door nail at this time..

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## Prometheus

Jzaib said:


> doesn't matter if it is out of UN council as the UN resolution had no value for Indian in the past so i am not surprised that it out of list of disputed regions....
> 
> The only thing that matter is We claimed Kashmir as our Part We are claiming it as our part and we will claim it as our part till dooms day....
> Yes,we are in no position as you(Indian) are but time never remains same and hope never dies
> Not in 10 years not in 15 not in 20 not in 50 years Lets consider not in next 100 years but one day for sure we will let it free Thats what i believe



Ameen.

Have you heard of 1972 simla agreement?????

Hail Pakistan for it

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## AR

Jzaib said:


> doesn't matter if it is out of UN council as the UN resolution had no value for Indian in the past so i am not surprised that it out of list of disputed regions....
> 
> The only thing that matter is We claimed Kashmir as our Part We are claiming it as our part and we will claim it as our part till dooms day....
> Yes,we are in no position as you(Indian) are but time never remains same and hope never dies
> *Not in 10 years not in 15 not in 20 not in 50 years Lets consider not in next 100 years but one day for sure we will let it free Thats what i believe*



It should be like this

Not in 10 years not in 15 not in 20 not in 50 years Lets consider not in next 100 years but one day for sure we will let it free from pakistani control Thats what i believe

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## Man of Thoughts

Prometheus said:


> Have you heard of 1972 simla agreement?????
> 
> Hail Pakistan for it



treaties and agreements comes and go doesn't matter.............

Facts are Facts wether I don't agree or you


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## Man of Thoughts

A.R.. said:


> It should be like this
> 
> Not in 10 years not in 15 not in 20 not in 50 years Lets consider not in next 100 years but one day for sure we will let it free from pakistani control Thats what i believe




SO be it


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## SpArK

Hi ..

Sorry for interupting .. guys..

Any update on "*clerical"* error of UN yet??


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## Ammyy

Jzaib said:


> *doesn't matter if it is out of UN council as the UN resolution had no value for Indian in the past so i am not surprised that it out of list of disputed regions....*
> 
> The only thing that matter is We claimed Kashmir as our Part We are claiming it as our part and we will claim it as our part till dooms day....
> Yes,we are in no position as you(Indian) are but time never remains same and hope never dies
> Not in 10 years not in 15 not in 20 not in 50 years Lets consider not in next 100 years but one day for sure we will let it free Thats what i believe



Yes you are right it doesn't matter to us Kashmir is always our internal part

*But now that news matter in this forum cause no one can quote Kashmir as dispute ... And those who causing problem their treated as terrorist*

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## Bangalorean

Rafi said:


> I think it comes from their being kicked by everyone for so long, I mean indian's are always the weakest and nerdiest kind of people, even abroad they never stick up for themselves.



Dude, your entire nation is being kicked left and right by the whole world, and you have the gall to say this!?

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## gowthamraj

Great news

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## Bharat Muslim

It's a typical American convoluted manipulation. In the wake of Muslim retaliation threat, U.S. now wants to play a role of mediator in Kashmir than ever before. They want to create an impression that U.S. was uninterested in the matter and it was Kashmiris who were dying for U.S. intervention.


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## SpArK

Bharat Muslim said:


> It's a typical American convoluted manipulation. In the wake of Muslim retaliation threat, U.S. now wants to play a role of mediator in Kashmir than ever before. They want to create an impression that U.S. was uninterested in the matter and it was Kashmiris who were dying for U.S. intervention.



So how is the journey here with a _false flag_ going so far?

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## SpArK

*India welcomes exclusion of J&K from U.N. disputes list​*
India on Monday welcomed the reported exclusion of Jammu and Kashmir from the list of unresolved international disputes.

It has been reported that U.N. has dropped Kashmir from the list of unresolved disputed. I think, if this step has been taken, I welcome it, Minister of State for External Affairs Praneet Kaur told reporters here.

We have always firmly maintained that Jammu and Kashmir is an integral part of India... This is a very welcome step and we hope that in same way the U.N. addresses our bilateral issues, she added.

Pakistan's envoy has lodged a protest against the omission of Jammu and Kashmir from a list of disputes under the observation of the U.N. Security Council.

The development has come as a setback to Pakistan which has been asking the world body to intervene on the issue.


The Hindu : News / National : India welcomes exclusion of J&K from U.N. disputes list




_Jai Ho_

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## Vajra_Yuddh

deckingraj said:


> *Jammu and Kashmir has been removed from the United Nations list of unresolved disputes, in a setback to Pakistan which has been asking the world body to intervene on the issue.*
> 
> The omission of Jammu and Kashmir from the list of disputes under the observation of the *Security Council was noticed by Pakistan, whose envoy has filed a protest.*
> 
> &#8220;The Jammu and Kashmir dispute was not mentioned in the context of unresolved long-running situations,&#8221; Pakistan's acting envoy to the U.N. Amjad Hussain B Sial said. *&#8220;We understand this was an inadvertent omission, as Jammu and Kashmir is one of the oldest disputes on the agenda of the Security Council,&#8221;* he said, speaking at the General Assembly session, which was discussing the functioning and reform of the Security Council.
> 
> It was organised by the U.K., which holds the presidency of the Security Council this month.
> 
> Pakistan has been asking the U.N. to intervene to help resolve the issue, but India has always maintained that the dispute has to be resolved bilaterally.
> 
> The Hindu : News / National : Jammu and Kashmir out of U.N. list of disputes
> 
> ***************************************************
> 
> though this news is couple of hours old yet i don't find similar thread anywhere....lets c how members will react to it.... i think what Pakistan envoy is saying is correct, this would be an inadvertent mistake, no???


Sensible decision. We welcome this change.

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## Vajra_Yuddh

Bharat Muslim said:


> It's a typical American convoluted manipulation. In the wake of Muslim retaliation threat, U.S. now wants to play a role of mediator in Kashmir than ever before. They want to create an impression that U.S. was uninterested in the matter and it was Kashmiris who were dying for U.S. intervention.


Sorry man. Keeping flags of India doesn't make you one. Your comments are so typical. Been following your words since yesterday. Please get your real flags out. Why such hesitation to have your real countries' for the world to see?

I'm half-Bhutanese half-Indian and I am proud of both my sides. What's the harm in showing your nationality?

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## AR

Its good move by UN.... things will become lot better when we will be permanent UN member with veto

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## Ammyy

*I am waiting for Syed Geelani`s comment 
*


Bechara.... pahle people ne protest karne se mana kar diya or ab UN

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## Rafi

Childish indians with updating threads every few seconds, to see what the big, bad, Pakistanis are doing, it is the height of indian self loathing, their whole reason'detre is by posting some obscure little piece of news, their self castration will some how be reversed. 

The anonymous nature of the internet lets some indians stick their chest out, when in reality they are very passive, totally subdued people. 

I'll allow the Kashmiri's to speak for themselves:-

*On August 15, India's independence day, Lal Chowk, the nerve centre of Srinagar, was taken over by thousands of people who hoisted the Pakistani flag and wished each other "happy belated independence day" (Pakistan celebrates independence on August 14) and "happy slavery day". Humour obviously, has survived India's many torture centres and Abu Ghraibs in Kashmir.*

*As the crowd continued to swell I listened carefully to the slogans, because rhetoric often holds the key to all kinds of understanding. There were plenty of insults and humiliation for India: Ay jabiron ay zalimon, Kashmir hamara chhod do (Oh oppressors, Oh wicked ones, Get out of our Kashmir.) The slogan that cut through me like a knife and clean broke my heart was this one: Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itself - Pakistan.)*

*Arundhati Roy*


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## Bharat Muslim

In a run-up to that they are doing phony things such as this.


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## SpArK

Rafi said:


> Childish indians with updating threads every few seconds, to see what the big, bad, Pakistanis are doing, it is the height of indian self loathing, their whole reason'detre is by posting some obscure little piece of news, their self castration will some how be reversed.



Dude if you have problems with Indians participating in this international forum talk to the mods.. no need to repeat the same words in all the threads..

And also the later part is irrelavant ...arundhati roy thread is on the other side.. this is about new UN's decision.. please stay on topic and if u have anything to say regarding it , we welcome it.

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## Rafi

The human spirit tells me, that if the people continue their fight, the evil fascist indian state will never be able to suppress the valiant people of Kashmir.

A man called Gandhi was also mocked by the British, with their instruments of oppression, Aung San Suu Kyi was held by the Burma regime. East Timor was liberated. 

You cannot hold a people in chains forever


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## rohitshubham

i think it is not possible to just resolve this as this will go on for eternity....and status quo is the best way that all the nations are satisfied (india pakistan and china ) cause noone in the world wants to raise a new war or even a hot debate over this issue ....................

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## prototype

Rafi said:


> Childish indians with updating threads every few seconds, to see what the big, bad, Pakistanis are doing, it is the height of indian self loathing, their whole reason'detre is by posting some obscure little piece of news, their self castration will some how be reversed.
> 
> The anonymous nature of the internet lets some indians stick their chest out, when in reality they are very passive, totally subdued people.
> 
> I'll allow the Kashmiri's to speak for themselves:-
> 
> *On August 15, India's independence day, Lal Chowk, the nerve centre of Srinagar, was taken over by thousands of people who hoisted the Pakistani flag and wished each other "happy belated independence day" (Pakistan celebrates independence on August 14) and "happy slavery day". Humour obviously, has survived India's many torture centres and Abu Ghraibs in Kashmir.*
> 
> *As the crowd continued to swell I listened carefully to the slogans, because rhetoric often holds the key to all kinds of understanding. There were plenty of insults and humiliation for India: Ay jabiron ay zalimon, Kashmir hamara chhod do (Oh oppressors, Oh wicked ones, Get out of our Kashmir.) The slogan that cut through me like a knife and clean broke my heart was this one: Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itself - Pakistan.)*
> 
> *Arundhati Roy*



first of all AR is not a kashmiri,she is like just any other citizen of the country,and she is not the only one with permit to comment about Kashmir,as fellow Indian Kashmir we also have the rights,and we claim Kashmir is India,now we also have a U.N seal on it

And about India's updating the tread in a few seconds,we r also welcome to do the same,but i can watch ur helplessness,u people had run out of arguments.


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## prototype

Rafi said:


> The human spirit tells me, that if the people continue their fight, the evil fascist indian state will never be able to suppress the valiant people of Kashmir.
> 
> A man called Gandhi was also mocked by the British, with their instruments of oppression, Aung San Suu Kyi was held by the Burma regime. East Timor was liberated.
> 
> You cannot hold a people in chains forever



and u can keep dreaming,dreaming and dreaming,u had done that for 63 yrs,we will not mind if u do that for another 630 yrs

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## karan.1970

Rafi said:


> The human spirit tells me, that if the people continue their fight, the evil fascist indian state will never be able to suppress the valiant people of Kashmir.
> 
> A man called Gandhi was also mocked by the British, with their instruments of oppression, Aung San Suu Kyi was held by the Burma regime. East Timor was liberated.
> 
> You cannot hold a people in chains forever



there is a difference between an indegenous struggle (your examples) and a state sponsored insurgency to annex land (Pakistan sponsored insurgency in Kashmir). You failed in Punjab, you will fail here too..

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## Rafi

BENNY said:


> Dude if you have problems with Indians participating in this international forum talk to the mods.. no need to repeat the same words in all the threads..
> 
> And also the later part is irrelavant ...arundhati roy thread is on the other side.. this is about new UN's decision.. please stay on topic and if u have anything to say regarding it , we welcome it.



Ms Roy is relevant because she is the first indian intellectual to tell the truth about the people of Kashmir. I have never denied indians the right to post on this site, but I also have a right to make fun of their foibles. 

*As the crowd continued to swell I listened carefully to the slogans, because rhetoric often holds the key to all kinds of understanding. There were plenty of insults and humiliation for India: Ay jabiron ay zalimon, Kashmir hamara chhod do (Oh oppressors, Oh wicked ones, Get out of our Kashmir.) The slogan that cut through me like a knife and clean broke my heart was this one: Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itself - Pakistan.)*

Rather than worry about the UN, and Pakistani domestic politics, indians should worry about this sentiment it goes to the heart of the issue, and when the Brits were ruling half the world. There were also no resolutions, but what happened to the Empire the sun never went down in.


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## SpArK

Rafi said:


> Ms Roy is relevant because she is the first indian intellectual to tell the truth about the people of Kashmir. I have never denied indians the right to post on this site, but I also have a right to make fun of their foibles.



She is intelligent because she spoke the exact words which you liked. Billion others dont think the same.

Not even me who is from the same state where she is from..

Its a common human psychological factor .........anybody who talks against the enemy is a _darling_ to them.





PS: and stop repeating pasting what she has said in all the posts.. You want us to byheart the words or what??

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## rohitshubham

i dont really fell that a chunk of land mass is worth fighting for especially when we have moved so ahead and are going for mars and moon .....we should be united as human and thats more important (if i case there is a space invasion from aliens ) .
i think both the governments should give a special visa for the the visitors and should control the government works there(pakistans claim and china's claim areas) jointly as to * show a peace model to the world *


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## Rafi

karan.1970 said:


> there is a difference between an indegenous struggle (your examples) and a state sponsored insurgency to annex land (Pakistan sponsored insurgency in Kashmir). You failed in Punjab, you will fail here too..



Oh my, touched a raw nerve with our indian opponents, lets ask Ms Roy:-

*As the crowd continued to swell I listened carefully to the slogans, because rhetoric often holds the key to all kinds of understanding. There were plenty of insults and humiliation for India: Ay jabiron ay zalimon, Kashmir hamara chhod do (Oh oppressors, Oh wicked ones, Get out of our Kashmir.) The slogan that cut through me like a knife and clean broke my heart was this one: Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itself - Pakistan.)*

That is the sentiment that counts, because of the indefatigable human spirit, Kashmiris will achieve their national aspirations, and all the murder of innocents, will make these people like you.


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## karan.1970

Rafi said:


> Ms Roy is relevant because she is the first indian intellectual to tell the truth about the people of Kashmir. I have never denied indians the right to post on this site, but I also have a right to make fun of their foibles.
> 
> *As the crowd continued to swell I listened carefully to the slogans, because rhetoric often holds the key to all kinds of understanding. There were plenty of insults and humiliation for India: Ay jabiron ay zalimon, Kashmir hamara chhod do (Oh oppressors, Oh wicked ones, Get out of our Kashmir.) The slogan that cut through me like a knife and clean broke my heart was this one: Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itself - Pakistan.)*
> 
> Rather than worry about the UN, and Pakistani domestic politics, indians should worry about this sentiment it goes to the heart of the issue, and when the Brits were ruling half the world. There were also no resolutions, but what happened to the Empire the sun never went down in.



Recently i saw a movie with an interesting line. It went like this.

" The price of my freedom of speech is my duty to defend yours"

So any Indian (no matter how hated) has full rights given by our constitution to say whatever he/she wants. And hence Ms Roy and all the folks of Kashmir you mentioned are able to say such without the risk of getting assasinated like some folks in your western border. 

However no citizen has the right to breakup or give away a part of country to anyone or any country. So as long as you are happy listning to slogans, all the best, since thats what you will ever get, and that too now has a limited shelf life..

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## Veeru

Rafi said:


> The human spirit tells me, that if the people continue their fight, the evil fascist indian state will never be able to suppress the valiant people of Kashmir.



True because we don't have any intention to suppress our people.



> A man called Gandhi was also mocked by the British, with their instruments of oppression, Aung San Suu Kyi was held by the Burma regime. East Timor was liberated.



Don't apply here as its just our internal matter also if some foreign puppets and radicals terrorize innocent Kashmiris with stone pelting etc. we will take care of that.



> You cannot hold a people in chains forever



We are not taking about Gilgit, Baltistan or so called azad kashmir here.

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## BS_Buster

Rafi said:


> Oh my, touched a raw nerve with our indian opponents, lets ask Ms Roy:-
> 
> *As the crowd continued to swell I listened carefully to the slogans, because rhetoric often holds the key to all kinds of understanding. There were plenty of insults and humiliation for India: Ay jabiron ay zalimon, Kashmir hamara chhod do (Oh oppressors, Oh wicked ones, Get out of our Kashmir.) The slogan that cut through me like a knife and clean broke my heart was this one: Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itself - Pakistan.)*



in no time ms. roy will kick you again.  you do not know her. 


pakistan requested for US intervention and obama visited taj hotel
pakistan asked for UN resolution and UN removed it 

good.

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## karan.1970

Rafi said:


> Oh my, touched a raw nerve with our indian opponents, lets ask Ms Roy:-
> 
> *As the crowd continued to swell I listened carefully to the slogans, because rhetoric often holds the key to all kinds of understanding. There were plenty of insults and humiliation for India: Ay jabiron ay zalimon, Kashmir hamara chhod do (Oh oppressors, Oh wicked ones, Get out of our Kashmir.) The slogan that cut through me like a knife and clean broke my heart was this one: Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itself - Pakistan.)*
> 
> That is the sentiment that counts, because of the indefatigable human spirit, Kashmiris will achieve their national aspirations, and all the murder of innocents, will make these people like you.



Looks like you dont have much material to say.. Hence the repetitions..

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## Rafi

Look at all the indian's swarming here, you guys really need to get a life, I mean I know Pakistani's are the main thing in your life, but honestly in the long term, this sort of obsession can be bad for your health. 

24/7, 365 days a year, you must be compensating for something


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## Frankenstein

UN is gona UNdo it soon


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## Mirza Jatt

sorry guys I got to know the news just now..so celebrating. 

more happy on the fact that the arguments indians presented on PDF about kashmir and related threads, were never accepted by Pakistani members...am happy that the answer is from UN now. 

guys book mark this thread for future references

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## SpArK

Rafi said:


> Look at all the indian's swarming here, you guys really need to get a life, I mean I know Pakistani's are the main thing in your life, but honestly in the long term, this sort of obsession can be bad for your health.
> 
> 24/7, 365 days a year, you must be compensating for something



How many Indians can u see here from a Billion.. 20 or maximum 30..

We are not obsessed or anything.. we are a bunch who love to discuss things on politics, defence and whatever interests us.. and this is an excellent platform because it gives us oppertunity to interact with lot of nationalities..

So please stop complaining..and the _crying_.











No need to google.... its the pic of Mrs.roy.

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## karan.1970

Rafi said:


> Look at all the indian's swarming here, you guys really need to get a life, I mean I know Pakistani's are the main thing in your life, but honestly in the long term, this sort of obsession can be bad for your health.
> 
> 24/7, 365 days a year, you must be compensating for something



And you are matching the swarm post by post.. And pointing at others about their need for compensating.. hmm.. Freud would have had a field day with you

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## Rafi

Is that why Ms Roy was threatened, your belief in freedom of speech is such, that a courageous woman, was threatened with prison. Bravo.

And why are indians, so concerned about us, a country with 80&#37; of its people living on less than half a dollar, a country were the official line of poverty is, less than 12 rupees a day. 

Like I have said before, the only people that count in this matter are the Kashmiri themselves, more than 60 years of brutality, and they still see you as their enemy.


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## karan.1970

Rafi said:


> Is that why Ms Roy was threatened, your belief in freedom of speech is such, that a courageous woman, was threatened with prison. Bravo.
> 
> And why are indians, so concerned about us, a country with 80% of its people living on less than half a dollar, a country were the official line of poverty is, less than 12 rupees a day.
> 
> Like I have said before, the only people that count in this matter are the Kashmiri themselves, more than 60 years of brutality, and they still see you as their enemy.



However I may detest you, I can't help but admire the skillful derailing of the topic. 

From A possible snub to Pakistan by UN to the standard rant and rave on Kashmir..

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## SpArK

Rafi said:


> Is that why Ms Roy was threatened, your belief in freedom of speech is such, that a courageous woman, was threatened with prison. Bravo.




She was only threatened.. every nationalistic citizen even in ur country would have done the same.. 

Try it by start saying Kashmir is India's on a public forum and come back to this forum if still alive and thats ur answer.




> And why are indians, so concerned about us, a country with 80&#37; of its people living on less than half a dollar, a country were the official line of poverty is, less than 12 rupees a day


. 

Poverty thread is on the other side.. 



> Like I have said before, the only people that count in this matter are the Kashmiri themselves, more than 60 years of brutality, and they still see you as their enemy.



Let them see it as whatever now. we will win their hearts soon. 
Be patient ,my dear.


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## Rafi

karan.1970 said:


> And you are matching the swarm post by post.. And pointing at others about their need for compensating.. hmm.. Freud would have had a field day with you



karan, listen dude I don't go that way, I'm sure their are many websites catering for your particular peccadilloes, if your searching for personal happiness, your not going to find it here.

I just been out and about, had some lunch, done some work, taken care of some business, but you are here constantly, dude are you that sad, have you nothing in your life, I find it all a bit sad.


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## Rafi

karan.1970 said:


> However I may detest you, I can't help but admire the skillful derailing of the topic.
> 
> From A possible snub to Pakistan by UN to the standard rant and rave on Kashmir..



I don't detest you, I pity you, your nick says 1970, so I assume that was the year of your birth, you are not an old man, don't you have any other thing in your life, that can get you out of this crippling obsession with all things Pakistani. 

The people who count are the Kashmiris, and they have totally rejected your fascist state. People also laughed at gandhi when he asked for freedom


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## karan.1970

Rafi said:


> karan, listen dude I don't go that way, I'm sure their are many websites catering for your particular peccadilloes, if your searching for personal happiness, your not going to find it here.
> 
> I just been out and about, had some lunch, done some work, taken care of some business, but you are here constantly, dude are you that sad, have you nothing in your life, *I find it all a bit sad*.



Watever makes you sad works for me dude.. 

Anyway you are so off topic that you cant even see it.. Both literally and figuratively. Welcome to the Ignoresville till you are back from your fishing trip...



Rafi said:


> I don't detest you, I pity you, your nick says 1970, so I assume that was the year of your birth, you are not an old man, don't you have any other thing in your life, that can get you out of this crippling obsession with all things Pakistani.
> 
> The people who count are the Kashmiris, and they have totally rejected your fascist state. People also laughed at gandhi when he asked for freedom



Interesting that 4 digit numbers only means YOB to you. You should mention that to Mr Frued.. 

And this takes us back.. State sponsored insurgencies have a very small and unsuccessful shelf life.. Kashmir is going the same way..

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## Rafi

BENNY said:


> She was only threatened.. every nationalistic citizen even in ur country would have done the same..
> 
> Try it by start saying Kashmir is India's on a public forum and come back to this forum if still alive and thats ur answer.
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Poverty thread is on the other side..
> 
> 
> 
> Let them see it as whatever now. we will win their hearts soon.
> Be patient ,my dear.



so you are justifying threatening a slight, middle aged women, and you call yourself a patriot. 

I didn't get the rest of your post, it was quite untidy with your poor grammar. So could not respond.


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## Frankenstein

wait and watch guys, such issues dont get resolve in one day, nor they are resolved by one side, its just a bs by US puppets

we fought 3 wars on this Issue, its not that easy

everything is gona get back to normal, by normal I meant Kashmir stays as a dispute


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## SpArK

[



Rafi said:


> so you are justifying threatening a slight, middle aged women, and you call yourself a patriot.
> 
> I didn't get the rest of your post, it was quite untidy with your poor grammar. So could not respond.



Nope. According to you she is the real "patriot".  

Everyone else are not patriotic


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## Rafi

karan.1970 said:


> Watever makes you sad works for me dude..
> 
> Anyway you are so off topic that you cant even see it.. Both literally and figuratively. Welcome to the Ignoresville till you are back from your fishing trip...
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting that 4 digit numbers only relate to DOB to you. You should mention that to Mr Frued..
> 
> And this takes us back.. State sponsored insurgencies have a very small and unsuccessful shelf life.. Kashmir is going the same way..



My, my karan - such little self esteem, did the big, bad man hurt your feelings, is it not a bit childish, if you have that little faith in your arguments - maybe it is best you stick to your obsession. 

I take it as a compliment, that you have Pakistan on your brain, day and night. 
*causa latet, vis est notissima*


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## Rafi

karan.1970 said:


> Watever makes you sad works for me dude..
> 
> Anyway you are so off topic that you cant even see it.. Both literally and figuratively. Welcome to the Ignoresville till you are back from your fishing trip...
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting that 4 digit numbers only means YOB to you. You should mention that to Mr Frued..
> 
> And this takes us back.. State sponsored insurgencies have a very small and unsuccessful shelf life.. Kashmir is going the same way..



I assumed it was your date of birth, because it is on your nick, well what does it represent, Ms has proved, the lie that it is state sponsored, thousands and thousands of Kashmiri, want your booka, nanga, hordes out of their land.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Closed for moderation

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## below_freezing

the americans have been right.

resources are located on land.
resources mean power.
land = power.
without land nothing can be done.
to gain power, occupy land from others.
then exploit their resources.
but don't do so if the current residents of the land are too strong. only do it if they're weak.

iraq and afghanistan? done. who is next?

i hope indian government is smart enough to stay the hell away from the taiwan issue because there's many tools we have of serious persuasion while india has many less tools.


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## ajtr

What a strategic self goal by indian GOI in comparing J&K with tibet and taiwan.


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## LaBong

ajtr said:


> What a strategic self goal by indian GOI in comparing J&K with tibet and taiwan.



It's indeed a self-goal. 

Why can't these people talk less and work more?


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## AR

below_freezing said:


> the americans have been right.
> 
> resources are located on land.
> resources mean power.
> land = power.
> without land nothing can be done.
> to gain power, occupy land from others.
> then exploit their resources.
> but don't do so if the current residents of the land are too strong. only do it if they're weak.
> 
> iraq and afghanistan? done. who is next?
> 
> i hope indian government is smart enough to stay the hell away from the taiwan issue because there's many tools we have of serious persuasion while india has many less tools.



you are already doing what you can do...

i want govt to enter the Issue....


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## chengdusudise

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Ah yes I remember that.
> 
> So what does that have to do with what we are discussing?



because you are too simple, sometimes too navie

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## para-site

I think Chinese poor strategic decisions are more and more visible now a days......do they forget that they also have plenty of loop holes that can be targeted.....and I think it's the time GOI takes the diplomatic offensive and plays tibet card......question is why stick to the rotten ideologies.....why dont call spade a spade.....

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## muse

> Drawing a dramatic parallel between the territorial red lines of both countries, India on Sunday told China that just as New Delhi had been sensitive to its concerns over the Tibet Autonomous Region and Taiwan, Beijing too should be mindful of Indian sensitivities on Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> The comparison &#8211; which is intended to drive home the depth of Indian concerns over recent Chinese attempts to question the country's sovereignty in Kashmir &#8212; was made by External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna in his meeting with China's Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi on the sidelines of the Russia-India-China trilateral meeting here.
> 
> This is the first time India has drawn this parallel directly, Indian officials told The Hindu.



We have argued that the US is the source of instability on our region, the incredible statement above is further proof that US policy seeks to embroil China in petty conflicts -- but neither Pakistan nor China must not allow itself to be drawn into the cesspool - they should just continue to do what it has judged is in the best interest of Pakistan and China.

As for Indian policy makers, well, confrontation, today, is a policy that sells among lower and rising middle class, it gives them the psychological crutch they seem to need as a symbol of having arrived -- Pakistan and China just have to live with this proclivity until it works itself out of the Indian national sense of themselves - there are of course other mechanism to bring about national sobriety and maturity.


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## Omar1984

*2 Indian soldiers killed in IHK ​*

SRINAGAR: Suspected rebels fatally shot two Indian paramilitary soldiers guarding a busy marketplace in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) on Wednesday, an official said. Anti-India sentiment runs deep in the disputed Muslim-majority region, where guerrilla groups have fought for Kashmirs independence from India or its merger with Pakistan since 1989. More than 68,000 people have been killed in the conflict. Wednesdays attack occurred in Pattan town about 30 kilometres north of Srinagar, the summer capital of IHK, triggering panic among shoppers and merchants, said Prabhakar Tripathi, a spokesman for the Central Reserve Police Force. The attackers fled after grabbing the dead soldiers rifles, a police officer said on condition of anonymity as he was not authorised to speak to the media. No group claimed responsibility for the attack. While insurgent strikes have largely been suppressed by Indian forces, Kashmiri resistance is now principally through street demonstrations. Since June, the region has been rocked by violent anti-India protests and subsequent crackdowns by government security forces that have killed at least 111 people - mostly teenage boys and young men in their 20s. India and Pakistan have fought two wars for control over the region since they won independence from Britain in 1947. ap

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## Omar1984

India Occupied Kashmir is nothing like China's Tibet and Taiwan.

Kashmir is a disputed territory between Pakistan and india. There is a LINE OF CONTROL between Pakistan's Azad Kashmir and India Occupied Jammu and Kashmir. There are no international borders between Pakistan's Azad Kashmir and India Occupied Jammu and Kashmir.

Tibet and Taiwan are not disputed territories between China and some other country. Tibet and Taiwan is part of China, every country accepts that.

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## Omar1984

*Seminar calls for OIC meeting on Kashmir ​*

LAHORE: Speakers at PINAs Seminar on Implication of Obamas Visit to India held in Lahore called for an emergency OIC foreign ministers conference for immediate withdrawal of Indian occupation forces and cessation of human rights violations against non-violent and indigenous freedom movement in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK). They urged the government to step-up diplomatic efforts for achieving a permanent seat for the Muslim block in UN Security Council. The speakers also stressed the need to restore internal stability, law and order and economic health of the country for preserving national integrity and attaining respectable and credible place in the global community.

The seminar was presided over by renowned intellectual, Senator SM Zafar, and was addressed by leading figures of civil society, political and defence analysts.

Altaf Hasan Qureshi, PINA secretary general, in his opening remarks, called for a objective analysis of Obamas India visit and drawing of realistic conclusions for the future strategy in dealing with the US, India and the region. He explained that PINA, in the past, had always supported the cause of the oppressed Kashmiris and provided them intellectual and moral strength in all crisis situations. 

Brigadier (r) Farooq Hameed Khan stated that Obamas visit has strengthened the US-India strategic partnership by encouraging Indias future admission as permanent member of UNSC, its inclusion in Nuclear Suppliers Group, thereby indirectly recognising Indias status as a regional power. He said it was ironic that President Obama had condemned human rights violations in Myammar but failed to do so openly in case of Indian Armys atrocities in IHK.

Vice Admiral (r) Javed Iqbal termed Obamas visit as an effort to make India a centre for maritime control alongwith Japan and US. He stated that India was ineligible for the UNSC permanent seat due to state sponsored terrorism in IHK.

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## PakiiZeeshan

Maybe i sound like facist, but i really don't care if Indian soldiers are dying. I hope more of them are killed in the the honour of the Kashmiris who have been killed. And also for the Pakistani soldiers who died fighting these fugly Indians in previous wars.

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## Hulk

Now a days talking about Kashmir has become more of a fashion statement.

OIC will do nothing.

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## muse

It's a harsh thing to say Zeeshan - they are men as well, with wives and children and friends and mothers and fathers -- but really it's all stupid and tragic - that two large nations should be at such level of intensity only points out that we are both stupid to let this fester and infect the entire body

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## PakiiZeeshan

Muse,

Just go to any of the videos/articles about the suicide bombings in Pakistan, and see the comments from those Indians. They even laugh at our young children dying for God's sake! 


I'm not going to talk sweet to them just because of how they behave on our forum towards us.

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## StingRoy

@muse... respect the comments you have made. 

Each and every life that is lost for this cause should be taken as a loss and not as a victory for the other side... After all it is loss of a human life who did not deserve to die. May their souls rest in peace.


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## PakiiZeeshan

Self delete


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## muse

Yeah, I have seen those and yes, it makes want to say and do unkind things -- but the soldiers have a sworn duty, they are professionals and on a different level, they are men.

But I know how you feel and I don't want you to think that I'm trying to suggest that I'm some how on a different plane than you are, I'm not -

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## Kinetic

omar gandu said:


> this is not good omar and zeeshan.....



They are going crazy mannn... think about the people who enjoy when other's people die. 

omar, PakiiZeeshan, and pakistani nationalist...... may God have pity on you. you are no less than any psycho, you need doctors because common man don't enjoy people's death. get well soon.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

@kinetic.... wat happens when u say the same abt us and our kashmiri brethern?
I pitty you n ur double standards....... you are no less than any psycho.

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## PeacefulIndian

Finance secretary Salman Siddique had issued an SOS regarding the failing economy. There was no emergency meeting sought by anyone. Debt write-offs are being requested by cabinet ministers. No emergency meetings are happening. Textile businessmen had issued a 48 hr deadline to improve energy situation or else they feared a loss of significant business. Again no emergency meetings. 

Now Obama visits India - suddenly there is an eminent need of an emergency meeting. Obama doesn't criticize 'atrocities' in Kashmir - yeah heck that qualifies for an emergency meeting too. Will you gullible people ever understand you are being royally fooled?

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## Tangerine

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> @kinetic.... wat happens when u say the same abt us and our kashmiri brethern?
> I pitty you n ur double standards....... you are no less than any psycho.



Ahem, you don't seem to understand the term 'collateral damage'. (FYI, collateral damage does not ONLY apply to military operations like PA's in Swat, NW.)

@*Your* Kashmiri brothers.


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## Kinetic

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> @kinetic.... wat happens when u say the same abt us and our kashmiri brethern?



lol What Kashmiri 'brethren'??? When did any Indian enjoyed killing of any Kashmiri civilians? Why did Kashmir sudden became violent after USSR collapsed??? Who is behind it? 



> I pitty you n ur double standards.......



Is it new tendency that you do something and for the same you accuse us??? Do you need example of your triple standards??? 



> you are no less than any psycho



We don't enjoy when Pakistani soldiers die. you are different. 

*Stop enjoying other's death. *


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## BigTree.CN

para-site said:


> I think Chinese poor strategic decisions are more and more visible now a days......do they forget that they also have plenty of loop holes that can be targeted.....and I think it's the time GOI takes the diplomatic offensive and plays tibet card......question is why stick to the rotten ideologies.....why dont call spade a spade.....



I think it is more appropriate to say it is India who must forget that they also have plenty of loop holes which can be targeted when it insists on messing up with China on Tibet. And China is just trying to remind them of their loop holes .

It is the time GOI does nothing, because Tibet card is just a myth.


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## muse

Lets move on shall we? The personal posts must now end -- lets get to the issues


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## Tangerine

Omar1984 said:


> *2 Indian soldiers killed in IHK ​*
> 
> SRINAGAR: Suspected rebels fatally shot two Indian paramilitary soldiers guarding a busy marketplace in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) on Wednesday, an official said. Anti-India sentiment runs deep in the disputed *Muslim-majority region*, where guerrilla groups have fought for Kashmir&#8217;s independence from India or its merger with Pakistan since 1989. More than 68,000 people have been killed in the conflict. Wednesday&#8217;s attack occurred in Pattan town about 30 kilometres north of Srinagar, the summer capital of IHK, triggering panic among shoppers and merchants, said Prabhakar Tripathi, a spokesman for the Central Reserve Police Force. The attackers fled after grabbing the dead soldiers&#8217; rifles, a police officer said on condition of anonymity as he was not authorised to speak to the media. No group claimed responsibility for the attack. While insurgent strikes have largely been suppressed by Indian forces, Kashmiri resistance is now principally through street demonstrations. Since June, the region *has been rocked by violent anti-India protests and subsequent crackdowns by government security forces* that have killed at least 111 people - mostly teenage boys and young men in their 20s. India and Pakistan have fought two wars for control over the region since they won independence from Britain in 1947. ap



Isn't this the norm?, minus the killings.


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## desiman

PakiiZeeshan said:


> Maybe i sound like facist, but i really don't care if Indian soldiers are dying. I hope more of them are killed in the the honour of the Kashmiris who have been killed. And also for the Pakistani soldiers who died fighting these fugly Indians in previous wars.



even in the Quran, Allah has said that in war fight properly and with dignity and give the enemy proper respect and burial upon death. It is strictly forbidden to make fun of or enjoy someones death. You are not only going against Islam but the essential feelings of humanity therefore I sympathize with your utterly foolish and stupid attitude. People like you will cause the downfall of Pakistan as you drift very far away from what Mr.Jinnah had envisioned.


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## desiman

PakiiZeeshan said:


> Muse,
> 
> Just go to any of the videos/articles about the suicide bombings in Pakistan, and see the comments from those Indians. They even laugh at our young children dying for God's sake!
> 
> Fuc*k them and their Country.
> 
> I'm not going to talk sweet to them just because of how they behave on our forum towards us.



I would really love to see how long an Indian would have lasted on this forum if he/she had made the same comments about a Pakistani soldier, nice double standards.


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## jayron

It is unfortunate that Indians have really become enraged and hate filled after the Mumbai attacks and the outing of double game played by ISI on a daily basis. But who do you think is to be blamed? 

Here terrorists are coming across the border and kill two soldiers and some guys are happy about it??? It is cowardice and supporting cowardice.


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## para-site

BigTree.CN said:


> I think it is more appropriate to say it is India who must forget that they also have plenty of loop holes which can be targeted when it insists on messing up with China on Tibet. And China is just trying to remind them of their loop holes .
> 
> It is the time GOI does nothing, because Tibet card is just a myth.



Apparently tibet is not the only loophole India can mess....

I think the time to do nothing has passed a log time back......And when it comes to interest of India, we can surely mess with loopholes including tibet...so what's the big deal....

EDIT: Hopefully chinese govt. use some grey matter this december.......


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## jayron

PakiiZeeshan said:


> Muse,
> 
> Just go to any of the videos/articles about the suicide bombings in Pakistan, and see the comments from those Indians. They even laugh at our young children dying for God's sake!
> 
> Fuc*k them and their Country.
> 
> I'm not going to talk sweet to them just because of how they behave on our forum towards us.



Do the Indians come and bomb your country? 
But the militants from Pakistan are entering India to trouble us. How should hate whom more?

Do you get the difference?


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## muse

The story says :


> Suspected rebels


 and


> No group claimed responsibility for the attack.



And so what makes you conclude:


> Here terrorists are coming across the border and kill two soldiers



What gives? group think? You have seen a thousand like it before and this makes it 1001?

I mean do we not want to examine the content of the story anymore?


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## jayron

muse said:


> The story says : and
> 
> And so what makes you conclude:
> 
> 
> *What gives? group think? You have seen a thousand like it before and this makes it 1001?
> 
> I mean do we not want to examine the content of the story anymore?*



Yes. Have you ever seen a neutral news source talking about a home grown Indian kashmiri Jihadi group? Just check last week's BBC news to find articles about hundreds Jihadis getting trained in "azad" Kashmir. And majority of them are not Kashmiris but Punjabi Pakistanis according to the news.


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## Chinese-Dragon

chengdusudise said:


> because you are too simple, sometimes too navie



I don't know what they thought of that in Chengdu... but here in Hong Kong, when Jiang Zemin said that, everyone thought he was just being rude and unprofessional.


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## PakiiZeeshan

desiman said:


> even in the Quran, Allah has said that in war fight properly and with dignity and give the enemy proper respect and burial upon death. It is strictly forbidden to make fun of or enjoy someones death. You are not only going against Islam but the essential feelings of humanity therefore I sympathize with your utterly foolish and stupid attitude. People like you will cause the downfall of Pakistan as you drift very far away from what Mr.Jinnah had envisioned.



oh shut up, and don't try to get sympathy by bringing Islam into this.

People like me will cause the downfall of Pakistan? By what? Posting on a forum? And defending my country?

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## PakiiZeeshan

jayron said:


> Yes. Have you ever seen a neutral news source talking about a home grown Indian kashmiri Jihadi group? Just check last week's BBC news to find articles about hundreds Jihadis getting trained in "azad" Kashmir. And majority of them are not Kashmiris but Punjabi Pakistanis according to the news.



But Pakistani Punjabis are not protesting in the thausands in Kashmir everyday, are we? Most Kashmiri Muslims want freedom from India.. face it! You've lost!


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## Tangerine

PakiiZeeshan said:


> oh shut up, and don't try to get sympathy by bringing Islam into this.
> 
> People like me will cause the downfall of Pakistan? By what? Posting on a forum? And defending my country?



If your means of defending your country is by posting this, then it makes sense that you are tarnishing your country's image by posting the crap you did.

Troll reported..


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## Infinite Sapience

desiman said:


> even in the Quran, Allah has said that in war fight properly and with dignity and give the enemy proper respect and burial upon death. It is strictly forbidden to make fun of or enjoy someones death. You are not only going against Islam but the essential feelings of humanity therefore I sympathize with your utterly foolish and stupid attitude. People like you will cause the downfall of Pakistan as you drift very far away from what Mr.Jinnah had envisioned.



Ohh, let the kids be, let them rejoice that Indian deaths, with current turn events thats is maximum amount of sadistic pleasure they are able to derive these days.


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## jayron

PakiiZeeshan said:


> But Pakistani Punjabis are not protesting in the thausands in Kashmir everyday, are we? Most Kashmiri Muslims want freedom from India.. face it! You've lost!



Yes. Kashmiris are protesting. But what does your Punjabi people have to do with it? Let the Kashmiris decide what to do. The Pakistani terrorists do not have to bring their gun culture in.

You were talking about Indians being happy about the bomb blasts in your country. When your men are coming into our country to bomb Mumbai, which has nothing to do with Kashmir, don't you think the people will be angry? Even the most sane , level headed person would be filled with hate.


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## Tangerine

PakiiZeeshan said:


> But Pakistani Punjabis are not protesting in the thausands in Kashmir everyday, are we? Most Kashmiri Muslims want freedom from India.. face it! You've lost!



They're not protesting because the Indian government doesn't give them visas to enter India, Kashmir to be specific.  Hence the only 'Pakistanis' protesting must be the terrorists. @The locals, It's ironic how everyone says 'Kashmiri Muslims'.

Now it makes sense why the UN dropped Kashmir from disputed regions =)

Since Millbourne, PA (yes, USA) is a Indian/'Hindu' majority city it should be given to India?

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## Awesome

Funny to see Indian reaction here after so many of them keep posting "Terrorists killed by Indian Army" whenever they manage to kill Kashmiri separatists, then there is the usual over zealous hormonal rejoicing.

Stop making these threads to piss each other off. It adds no value to the discussion on the issue of Kashmir.

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## PakiiZeeshan

jayron,

To be honest and straight forward with you; i have a double standard and i'm not ashamed to admit it. I don't care if my people; Pakistani Punjabis, or any other type of person is interfering in Kashmir issue... i just hope India will lose Kashmir, because this will be a payback for Indian interference in East Pakistan, where you guys had broken our mother land into 2 pieces.

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## Aqua

Thats a good success for us. 

Now UN is lossing ground. Tomorrow international community will lossing ground too


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## nForce

If UN is loosing ground then no Pakistan should not be concerned if India gets that UNSC permanent seat.


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## karan.1970

Any news on the UN reaction to this?? I mean to Pakistan's objections on ommitting J&K from the list


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## PakSher

Yes, this will really stop the aspiration of the Kashmiri Liberation. We need to intensify our all our efforts.


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## Aqua

You want a permanent seat for Muslim block?
So one more politics in UNSC on religious ground...... U r already doing politics on religious ground in south Asia about Kashmir.


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## karan.1970

^ How dumb does that get.. Exactly the kind of religious alignments the whole world frowns at. Havent heard about anyone asking for a Christian seat and a Hindu seat..


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## karan.1970

PakSher said:


> Yes, this will really stop the aspiration of the Kashmiri Liberation. We need to intensify our all our efforts.



Wouldnt they be better directed at the problems in your KP region and the economic issues post the floods..?


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## muse

> The *omission* of Jammu and Kashmir from a list of disputes under the observation of the UN Security Council was noticed by Pakistan whose envoy has lodged a protest.
> 
> "Jammu and Kashmir dispute was not mentioned in the context of unresolved long-running situations," said Amjad Hussain B Sial, Pakistan' acting envoy to the UN.
> 
> "We understand t*his was an inadvertent omission*, as Jammu and Kashmir is one of the oldest disputes on agenda of the Security Council," he added



Inadvertent omission?? What's going on - was this an inadvertent omission??


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## BigTree.CN

para-site said:


> Apparently tibet is not the only loophole India can mess....
> 
> I think the time to do nothing has passed a log time back......And when it comes to interest of India, we can surely mess with loopholes including tibet...so what's the big deal....
> 
> EDIT: Hopefully chinese govt. use some grey matter this december.......



Apparently, India also has more than one loopholes that can be messed.

As i have stated many times, this game is initiated by India, China is just forced to play this ugly game. If India wants to play it through, we can play it through. 

It is funny that India trys to threaten China to back off while she is still pushing forward. 

Since it is no big deal to you, then Indian members should stop making so much noise.


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## Devil Soul

Support Kashmir, says Khamenei
Published: November 16, 2010
TEHRAN (Agencies) - Iranian Supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has called for providing assistance to Kashmir engaged in freedom struggle.
Today the major duties of the elite of the Islamic Ummah is to provide help to the Palestinian nation and the besieged people of Gaza, to sympathise and provide assistance to the nations of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and Kashmir, to engage in struggle and resistance against the aggressions of the United States and the Zionist regime, to safeguard the solidarity of Muslims and stop tainted hands and mercenary voices that try to damage this unity, to spread awakening and the sense of responsibility and commitment among Muslim youth throughout Islamic communities, Khamenei said in his message to the Haj pilgrims.
Support Kashmir, says Khamenei | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

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## Kompromat

OIC needs some actual powers ie imposing trade sanctions etc to make itself heard because an Immoral and savage society like India would never listen to the calls for the freedom.


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## Kompromat

*
UN Says Kashmir remains on UNSC&#8217;s agenda*






UNITED NATIONS, Nov 16 (APP):The Jammu and Kashmir dispute remains on the United Nations Security Council&#8217;s agenda, a UN spokesman categorically stated Monday, while rejecting as &#8220;inaccurate&#8221; reports that it has been removed from the list of unresolved issues.&#8220;Some articles today on Kashmir are inaccurate,&#8221; UN Spokesman Farhan Haq said, referring to those reports. He said the latest list of matters the Security Council is seized of &#8220;continues to include the agenda item under which the Council has taken up Kashmir which, by a decision of the Council, remains on the list for this year,&#8221; the spokesman added. 


Earlier, a spokesman for the Pakistan Mission clarified that Pakistan&#8217;s Acting Ambassador Amjad Hussain Sial, in his speech to the General Assembly on Friday, November 12 had referred to the omission of Jammu and Kashmir dispute in a statement by the President of the Security Council, and NOT from the Council&#8217;s Annual Report-as reported in a section of press.
&#8220;The agenda item entitled, &#8216;India and Pakistan Question&#8217;, which covers Jammu and Kashmir dispute, is duly mentioned in the Annual Report of the Security Council and is also present on its agenda,&#8221; Spokesman Mian 

Jehangir Iqbal said in a statement. In his statement, the 15-member Council&#8217;s President for the current month, British Ambassador Mark Lyall Grant, while presenting the Annual Report to the 192-member assembly, did not mention the Kashmir dispute in the context of unresolved long-running situations, despite the fact decades-old issue is included in the Annual Report. 

*&#8220;We understand this was an inadvertent omission, as Jammu and Kashmir is one of the oldest disputes on agenda of the Security Council,&#8221; Ambassador Sial remarked, after Grant&#8217;s statement. *Meanwhile, Pakistan&#8217;s UN Ambassador Abdullah Hussain Haroon, who is on a visit to Pakistan, said there was no question of the Kashmir issue being dropped from the Council&#8217;s agenda. &#8220;The Security Council Report in its annexures is explicit,&#8221; he said in a statement. 
&#8220;The President of the Security Council, the Permanent Representative of the UK, is amply clear on the subject and is cognizant of the matter. I would request all concerned not to speculate unnecessarily upon the subject&#8221;

http://ftpapp.app.com.pk/en_/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=122259&Itemid=2.

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## Kompromat

What a show of soft **** journalism by Indian media.

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## flameboard

Hopefully this will at least stop the violence.


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## muse

It's a psychological need - I just love it -- When lies is what your world view is based on, you may want to reexamine why you need such a world view? what does it say about you? -- here of course i am referring to a section of media in India, not all Indians and not all Indian media


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## roach

It is also Illuminating that the UN accepts that Kashmir is still disputed, even though nobody is willing to do anything about it. About the only ones who get hot and bothered about Kashmir are Pakistanis-in fact Kashmir and the JF-17 is the only thing that almost all Pakistanis on this forum agree on.

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## Rafael

Pathetic Indian Media and Indians are at it again, seriously get a life people!

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## Rafael

roach said:


> It is also Illuminating that the UN accepts that Kashmir is still disputed,* even though nobody is willing to do anything about it. *About the only ones who get hot and bothered about Kashmir are Pakistanis-in fact Kashmir and the JF-17 is the only thing that almost all Pakistanis on this forum agree on.



And still Indians are so insecure about it that they restort to tell plain lies to their public! How pathetic

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## muse

I too must admit that the insecurity some Indians feel and express as "confidence" is difficult for me to understand and it does make me uncomfortable to think there are those in whom we engender such insecurity, that they even question their own worth.


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## Infinity

any neutral source


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## KS

When did the Express Tribune or The Nation become Orange Indian Media ??

Kashmir issue left unmentioned in United Nations &#8211; The Express Tribune

UNs real face | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

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## gubbi

Its a statement made by one of Ban ki Moon's spokespersons. Not the main one at that. Its the same Farhan Haq, who earlier had sent e-mails containing controversial remarks to Pakistani newspapers about the latest unrest in Kashmir. UN later clarified those remarks as the personal opinion of Mr Haq and not those of the Sec-Gen.

Btw, Mr Farhan Haq is a US citizen of Pakistani descent. Given his actions in the past, one needs to take his comments with a pinch of salt.

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## KS

Black Blood said:


> *
> UN Says Kashmir remains on UNSC&#8217;s agenda*
> 
> UNITED NATIONS, Nov 16 (APP):The Jammu and Kashmir dispute remains on the United Nations Security Council&#8217;s agenda, a UN spokesman categorically stated Monday, while rejecting as &#8220;inaccurate&#8221; reports that it has been removed from the list of unresolved issues.&#8220;Some articles today on Kashmir are inaccurate,&#8221; *UN Spokesman Farhan Haq *said, referring to those reports. He said the latest list of matters the Security Council is seized of &#8220;continues to include the agenda item under which the Council has taken up Kashmir which, by a decision of the Council, remains on the list for this year,&#8221; the spokesman added.
> 
> Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ).



*No International/Credible sources saying anything*....


BTW isnt this the same Farhan Haq guy who created an embarassment for the UN Sec Gen a few months ago...?? A truckload of salt is advised.

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## Spring Onion

Infinity said:


> any neutral source



*UN spokesman*


And FYI : APP wont mention the name of UN spokesman if he did not say that.


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## TaimiKhan

All the congrats and the diwali mithayiyan gone down then well.

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## Spring Onion

TaimiKhan said:


> All the congrats and the diwali mithayiyan gone down then well.



when bhartyas were posting non-stop (what we say in urdu andha dhund) there have you seen many posts from my side on that thread ??


I posted one reply


> *"UK dwara parmarant"*


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## Spring Onion

gubbi said:


> Its a statement made by one of Ban ki Moon's spokespersons. Not the main one at that. Its the same Farhan Haq, who earlier had sent e-mails containing controversial remarks to Pakistani newspapers about the latest unrest in Kashmir. UN later clarified those remarks as the personal opinion of Mr Haq and not those of the Sec-Gen.
> 
> Btw, Mr Farhan Haq is a US citizen of Pakistani descent. Given his actions in the past, one needs to take his comments with a pinch of salt.




So you say we should accept bharti claim based on speech of UK official your former gora sahab ?


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## roach

Jana said:


> So you say we should accept bharti claim based on speech of UK official *your former gora sahab* ?



Hmm Jana, looks like you are under the impression that present-day Pakistan was colonized by Martians before 1947???????


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## Fasih Khan

*Shame On India*

http://www.express.com.pk/epaper/PoPupwindow.aspx?newsID=1101100259&Issue=NP_LHE&Date=20101116


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## Hyde

ahhhhh once again I have been dodged by Indian Media   why don't we just ban news from Indian media on PDF?

Please do it, I am fed up of Indian media now 

@Black Blood

That fake news received 76 thanks as of now.... is ko hum ne century maarni hai  - Sab log dil khol ke vote do

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## RPK

*The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Frontpage | Pak mission behind an &#145;omission&#146;*

New York, Nov. 15: Pakistan&#8217;s acting permanent representative to the UN, Amjad Hussain Sial&#8217;s pretension in the General Assembly last Thursday that &#8220;an inadvertent omission&#8221; in the annual report of the Security Council had left out Kashmir as &#8220;one of the oldest disputes on agenda of the Security Council&#8221; is a desperate attempt by Islamabad to revive the issue in the UN. 

Pakistan sees its hope of once again internationalising the dispute through the UN fade rapidly as India prepares to join the Security Council for a two-year term next January and campaigns for a permanent seat in the council, a claim now endorsed by US President Barack Obama. 

But by admitting in a General Assembly speech that the UN was no longer seized of the Kashmir issue, instead of lobbying quietly for its re-inclusion, Sial has alerted the world to Pakistan&#8217;s predicament and may have seriously damaged his country&#8217;s pet cause against India. 

A thorough review of UN records by this reporter following Sial&#8217;s statement has revealed that throughout this new millennium the annual reports of the Security Council had never even once mentioned Kashmir by name. 

A review of the secretary-general&#8217;s annual report on the work of the UN has also not cited the Kashmir dispute since 2005. In that last year when Kashmir figured in the report, it was only in the context of welcoming a resumption of bilateral dialogue between India and Pakistan, a reference that was favourable to New Delhi. 

*A European ambassador to the UN, echoing the near-unanimous view at the UN, told this reporter today that as an issue before the world body, Kashmir was &#8220;dead as a dodo&#8221;. Kofi Annan had admitted when he was secretary-general that Security Council resolutions on Kashmir &#8220;cannot be enforced and are not self-implementable&#8221;. *

The latest Security Council report, the subject of Sial&#8217;s pretension, does not mention Kashmir by name even when a passing reference to the Indian state would have been routine in the course of the council&#8217;s work. In a reflection of general weariness at the way Islamabad continues to revive this &#8220;dead dodo&#8221;, the report curiously used the euphemism &#8220;the India Pakistan question&#8221; when Kashmir actually cropped up in an obscure communication. 

The mention of &#8220;the India Pakistan question&#8221; surfaced in a chapter on &#8220;Matters brought to the attention of the Security Council but not discussed at meetings of the Council during the period covered&#8221; in Part V of the 230-page annual report. 

It was occasioned by a letter from Syria&#8217;s permanent representative to the UN, Bashar Jaafari, to secretary-general Ban Ki-moon merely conveying the final communiqu&#233; of an annual meeting of foreign ministers of the Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC) in New York last year. 

Although Syria is a friend of India&#8217;s, Jaafari had to send the communication to Ban in his capacity as chair of the OIC group in New York. The communiqu&#233; called for implementation of UN resolutions on Kashmir, but it was quietly filed away by whoever received it here and no action was taken. 

In New Delhi, the ministry of external affairs said &#8220;we condemn and reject&#8221; the OIC communiqu&#233;, adding that &#8220;the OIC has no locus standi in matters concerning India&#8217;s internal affairs.&#8221; 

UN reports continue to mention the UN Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP) set up under UN resolutions, but notes that there were no resolutions about it in 2009-2010. 

The Pakistani diplomat who spoke in the General Assembly last week may have had no option in the matter. It is the policy of the Asif Zardari government and the present leadership of the army in Rawalpindi to do everything possible to internationalise Kashmir. But at the UN at least, it is strategy that is failing, at least for now.

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## S_O_C_O_M

JourneymanPictures | November 15, 2010 

November 2010

It's one of the world's longest-running conflicts, defined by daily street battles and accusations of military abuse. Once again levels of violence have risen with daily battles raging - terror on Srinagar's tired streets? 

"What do you think we're fighting for?! Freedom!", cries one of the masked young men preparing to take on the armed police in Srinigar. Once famed for its beauty, the Kashmir valley is now a joyless place of angry streets and automatic rifles. Frustrated over the remaining presence of Indian security forces, seemingly immune to the law. Angry young men and women taking to the streets to fight against "Indian occupation". The police have responded with force, and more than 100 people have died. We hear from the heartbroken family of an eight year old boy, who was beaten to death by the police for breaking the curfew: "a stick was thrust into his mouth, and his teeth were broken". The police deny all allegations, and insist that they "use plastic and rubber bullets". It's not what the video shows! Yet the alleged brutality has radicalised a wide cross-section of the community. The Indian Government says it has appointed three peace envoys in an attempt to calm things. Yet Kashmiris say peace is not what India wants: "the answer unfortunately to every rising in Kashmir is bullets". 

Produced by Native Voice Films
Distributed by Journeyman Pictures

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## muse

rpraveenkum


That was great - I can't tell you how funny that news piece was, absolutely precious. I promise I had not laughed out loud at something I read on the forum - just too cute.

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## Tin Man

I dont see why anyone needs to feel elated.. Kashmir Issue; regardless whether its going to be included in the UN agenda is not going to be solved anyhow. Indians will not relenquish their hold over it to pakistan and Pakistan will not stop trying to claim kashmir for their own. 

Both indians and pakistanis have claim over kashmir. For those pakistani religious pundits who claim their hold over kashmir due to its religious majority needs to recognise if needed; india can raise a similiar claim. India currently holds the second largest muslim population in the world, second to indonesia.

As i mentioned in one of my previous posts , the elevated regions of Kashmir gives a huge tactical advantage to anyone controlling it. To surrender that kind of significant location to a country where "anti india" propaganda is the order of the day would be nothing short of madness. Not to mention the copious amount of indian blood shed trying to defend the territory would be in vain. 

If asked to predict the future, i will say that the kashmir issue will remain exactly where it is at present and can never be resolved until of the rival states collapses. The conflict will remain in the UN agenda as one of the oldest rivalries but that will be it. Dont expect any real solutions as both parties are highly unwilling to compromise. UN cannot go in favour of either party simply because

Pakistan is host to numerous terror outfits and a stable unbiased government is needed to combat the terrorist threat both internal and western. India cannot be made an enemy as it holds a significant position in the international trade/defence/education scenario.

Regards
Styx.

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## Areesh

I always knew that this was coming. Anyways I won't mind such celebrations of hypothetical victory from the Indian side if they help them to sleep well.


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## SEAL

Indian diplomatic victory

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## Ammyy

Omar1984 said:


> *Seminar calls for OIC meeting on Kashmir ​*.



Who listen to OIC ?????????? Not even members 


And if they say any thing so who cares ?????

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## muse

Come on guys - we can laugh about it -- some zealot editor, manages to screw his paper's reputation on such a silly thing - come on, it's funny - and the whole "Pak Mission behind Omission" priceless.

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## Hyde

Fasih Khan said:


> *Shame On India*
> 
> Daily Express News Story



*This news says, It was omitted by mistake and now they will add Kashmir dispute once again

so by that logic, both news were true?????*

And we all know, Express news is one of the most reliable Pakistani source so no need to doubt on journalism


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## INDIAN007

*Plight of Kashmiri militants in Azad Kashmir*

Story of Kashmiri struggle is a long and tragic story of suffering of human beings on both sides of the forcibly divided State of Jammu and Kashmir. During our study tour of Azad Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan, I met a leader of Kashmiri militants who still live in Azad Kashmir. Before giving details of their plight it is imperative to give short summary to the on going armed struggle.

They were young, energetic and full of life; but they were frustrated and not satisfied with what life had to offer them. They wanted change; and they were led to believe that the change could only come from a barrel of gun, which did not grow on Kashmiri trees. The gun and training needed to bring about the desired change could only be gained from Azad Kashmir and Pakistan, so they crossed the Line of Control to get guns, training and ammunition that they could fight the Indian forces stationed in Kashmir.

Between 1989 and 1991 tens of thousands of Kashmiri youths crossed over the Line of Control and went to a land of their dreams  Pakistan, which many of them thought was a place where there was justice, peace and tranquillity. Pakistan, for many of them, was just like a second Makkah, a country established in name of Islam and where, according to them, all was well.



Many of them thought their Kashmiri brothers living under control of Pakistan were living in heaven; and enjoyed life much better than them. Their dreams were shattered when they crossed over. Many of them lost their lives while walking to land of their dreams. Those who made it across the LOC reached there exhausted and in some cases needed urgent medical help.



On arrival they were not greeted with flowers. They all had to go through rigorous security checks, interrogation and, at times, humiliation. Many soon got frustrated and went back empty handed. On way back, they either got killed or adapted to new life style in presence of gun culture, oppression, large army, fear and intimidation.



Their position was similar to that woman who insisted for a divorce, despite husbands pleas of forgiveness and promises of rectifying the past mistakes. After getting a divorce she got married to a man of her choice, but soon realised that he was not caring and compassionate enough. After a big clash with her new husband, while sobbing she said: oh my former husband, how good you were?



Tens of thousands of other militants decided to fight their corner and adapt to new life style in Azad Kashmir and Pakistan, as they thought they could not go back because of fear of death and repercussions. Most of these militants were kept in camps; some went to their relatives or friends. Some others got training and were sent back to fight, and either they embraced martyrdom or, in some cases, they abandoned militancy.



Most of the Muslim Kashmiris living under the Indian rule were, no doubt, staunch supporters of Pakistan, it was Pakistani policies and attitude of Pakistani agencies which transformed them to Kashmiri nationalists. They had seen the Indian rule and obviously they rejected that; and after experiencing the Pakistani policy and their rule in Azad Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan and their attitude to Kashmiris and concept of azadi (independence) they became ardent supporters of an independent Kashmir.



Only those Kashmiri militants who practically became collaborators of Pakistan and helped Pakistan to promote a Pakistani agenda on Kashmir enjoyed their stay in Azad Kashmir and Pakistan. These people were lavishly rewarded and promoted as true Kashmiri leaders and representatives of people of Jammu and Kashmir. Families of these chosen few enjoyed life, they travelled to all major cities of the world to promote Kashmiri struggle and their children studied in universities in Europe; yet they encouraged others to pay sacrifices for the cause of struggle.



Of course this is not the full story, as different people faced different situations and their experiences also differ from one another; and it is not practically possible to narrate all these stories. Fact, however is, that the raw material needed to keep the Kashmir pot boiling soon started to run out, as many Kashmiris realised that their sentiments were used in name of azadi to advance a Pakistani agenda, but they didnt know what to do. They had no options, as life back home was not rosy, as there was oppression, killings and imprisonment. They were between a rock and hard place.



Those who controlled and planned this azadi struggle for Kashmiris got alarmed because of short of supply of Kashmiri raw material required to continue their policy of keep India engaged and keep India bleeding. Nationalism or azadi was not the kind of product which they could sell to recruit warriors from the international market, so this was presented as a Jihad in such a way that Muslims from various nationalities were attracted to come to Kashmir to wage jihad against India either to embrace martyrdom or to make Kashmir part of Islamic Umma.



Thinking Kashmiris soon realised that it was not their struggle; and they were deceived in holy name of jihad. Their struggle for their identity and independence was made part of Islamic fundamentalism to deprive the struggle of international support and support of other Kashmiri minorities; and to get the State of Jammu and Kashmiri divided on religious lines.



Now coming back to the plight of those Kashmiris who remained back in Azad Kashmir, and who went to there to get training and weapons. A man called Mohammed Isahaq Malik phoned me and requested for a meeting. I had four meetings planned for that afternoon, but his desperation and requests for meeting forced me to find some time for him. We met in Roopial Hotel in Mirpur.



He was from Rajouri, a part of Jammu province on the Indian side of the LOC. Like many others, he also crossed over with his friends in name of azadi and on call of the JKLF to get training and weapons that he could go back and fight India. Mohammed Isahaq Malik who was now President of Mahjareen Council (Council of Migrants) said: they were let down by Pakistan and the JKLF. We were deceived in name of azadi and struggle.



He said: now we know Pakistan government had its own agenda on Kashmir, but what hurt us more, is the attitude of the JKLF leaders and the government of Azad Kashmir. We fail to understand why they have betrayed us and why they have betrayed the ideology and the movement.

When he was complaining about the attitude of Amanulla Khan and other JKLF leaders, I asked him if he had met Amanullah Khan and explained the plight of these suffering militants who were away from their homes and their love ones. He said he did, and after listening to their serious humanitarian problems Amanullah Khan said: it is part of the struggle. You have to be patient and accept things as they are. He further said: if I was in a position to help then I would have helped my own people in Gilgit Baltistan.



Mr Malik said: we can understand these things - suffering and sacrifices in name of struggle. We can be patient because it was our decision to come here and consequently suffer, but how could we explain our young children who have their own needs and dreams. Everything looks rosy and good when you have plenty of food in your stomach, expensive clothes on your body and decent shelter over your head; but slogans of azadi, ideology and struggle look totally irrelevant and unattractive when your children are crying for food and you have no money to pay for their medicine or no money to educate them.



He told me that thousands of militants of 1990s abandoned militancy and they wish to go back home to be with their parents and other friends and relatives, but they were dumped in these camps which are living hazards for us and our children. We have no means to go back. He said there were around 26,000 militants or families (as these militants got married and started a new life) from Jammu province alone.



He said: these people were in a desperate need of help and support. All of these people want to go back and want to be with their families. We made a mistake of coming here in 1990, but for how long we have to suffer for that mistake?



He gave me details of the camps and how many families live in each camp. These camps are spread over in many parts of Azad Kashmir, for example, there is a camp in Poonch with 500 familes; Ambor Camp with 800 families, Kotli camp 303 families, Manak Peer Camp more than 800 families, Bagh Camp 50 families and 200 families in another camp. Each person is paid 1500 per month and at times no money is paid for 4/5 months. How can one survive on this money with soaring prices, he asked me?



He said: they did not face so many problems in Rajouri. We had some respect there, but here we are humiliated and looked down with hatred and abhorrence. We have a Muslim majority in that area and they were supporters of National Conference of Omar Abdullah. He hoped that Omar abdullah will formulate a policy to get us back that we can return to our homes and start a new life.



It was really painful listening to plight of these Kashmiris who went across in name of azadi and faced enormous problems; and now wanted to return to their families. I was in no position to help these people, but I promised Mohammed Isahaq Malik to write an article about them and voice their concerns hoping that someone might be in a position to help them.

Plight of Kashmiri militants in ?Azad Kashmir?


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## INDIAN007

*Kashmir News - Women in Gilgit Protest Atrocities of Pakistani Army*

YouTube - Kashmir News - Women in Gilgit Protest Atrocities of Pakistani Army

http://www.pakistan.tv/videos-kashmir-news-women-in-gilgit-[qUfC6oyFPjM].cfm


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## Hyde

lol lol lol

I saw this video first time on one of the indian forum,

nowhere in the video she protests atrocities of Pakistan army and the title is claiming something else 

Please delete this thread....


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## Ammyy

Sir

* Press in p o k is not free so news like this not open easily this show the reality of same rights to Kashmiri people of Pakistan's claim*

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## Hindustani

self delete


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## Spring Onion

hahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


You idiots. It would have been nice for all those morons to watch the video before posting it everywhere with false claims.

This protest was staged in wake of a firing incident during elections in 2009 in Gilgit Baltistan wherein all political parties took part.

The activists of PPP and the rival group contesting elections opened fire which led to killing of a young boy.

lolzzzzzzzzzzzzzz you indians. i feel really sorry for this mentality of some indians. You guys cling to straws that too the wet straws that can not give you support for even neno second

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## Ammyy

Zaki said:


> *This news says, It was omitted by mistake and now they will add Kashmir dispute once again
> 
> so by that logic, both news were true?????*
> 
> And we all know, Express news is one of the most reliable Pakistani source so no need to doubt on journalism



First of all no official news 

And why only single source for this and thts Pakistani not any other ???


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## Hyde

DRDO said:


> First of all no official news
> 
> And why only single source for this and thts Pakistani not any other ???



Its from express tv.... Yesterday when the news was released indian media was the first source for most part of the day. Samething happened tody...pakistani media first...the world media has better things to do so wait until u read from international source too


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## Frankenstein

I knew it 

I knew it

On your Face!!! 

Pathetic bullsh1t media


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## Bangalorean

Jana said:


> hahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
> 
> 
> You idiots. It would have been nice for all those morons to watch the video before posting it everywhere with false claims.
> 
> This protest was staged in wake of a firing incident during elections in 2009 in Gilgit Baltistan wherein all political parties took part.
> 
> The activists of PPP and the rival group contesting elections opened fire which led to killing of a young boy.
> 
> lolzzzzzzzzzzzzzz you indians. i feel really sorry for this mentality of some indians. You guys cling to straws that too the wet straws that can not give you support for even neno second



Go and say these things to people like Hafizzz and Omar1984 first, you elite troll.


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## Ammyy

Zaki said:


> Its from express tv.... Yesterday when the news was released indian media was the first source for most part of the day. Samething happened tody...pakistani media first...the world media has better things to do so wait until u read from international source too



Its really interesting to see only a single source not even other Pakistani news quote this important new ????

Well even UN quote Indian source in their site 
United Nations News


And this also 

J&K omitted from UN list of unresolved disputes

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## Hindustani

I've only been seeing it one two sides so far. First India's statement now pakistans. I have yet to actually read it from the UN.


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## Ammyy

Today UN news quote this news 

J&K BJP welcomes decision taken by UN of deleating J&K disputed issue | GroundReport 

 

Which one is true .....this thread with single Pakistani source or UN news ????


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## Hindustani

Well it was on pakistani news as well so you can't blame orange media

Jammu and Kashmir out of United Nations list

I still haven't seen a neautral source.


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## Mughal-Prince




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## Rafael

Indians and their obsessions 

Better luck next time folks!


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## Abu Zolfiqar



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## karan.1970

Guys.. Its simple.. The resolution has not be quashed. So there is no formal removal of Kashmir dispute from the list. Howeer the resoltion that has been made defunct has lost the mind share of the world at large, which is reflected in the fact that it is no longer refered to when the key conflicts / disputes around the world are discussed in the UNSC. If another article in this thread is to be believed, not even once since 2000. Take it as you will.. As I said yesterday, this just adds one more point for people on different forums to argue about..

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## Hindustani

Hell I even see it on Chinese media Chinadaily BBS - World Affairs Today - UN removes Kashmir from disputes list

And from the looks of it, the Chinese seem to be happy that the UN removes the dispute.


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## Frankenstein

bicharoon ko lagta hai aur koi kaam hi nahi ha


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## graphican

*Now that is a diplomatic victory for Pakistan!* When America, India and Russia must be looking to take this issue out of its "unresolved list".. some silent players did the job even better! CONGRATULATIONS to Kashmiris and Pakistanis across the world.


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## Pagla Dashu

> UNITED NATIONS, Nov 16 (APP):The Jammu and Kashmir dispute remains on the United Nations Security Council&#8217;s agenda, a UN spokesman categorically stated Monday, while rejecting as &#8220;inaccurate&#8221; reports that it has been removed from the list of unresolved issues.&#8220;Some articles today on Kashmir are inaccurate,&#8221; UN Spokesman Farhan Haq said, referring to those reports. He said the latest list of matters the Security Council is seized of &#8220;continues to include the agenda item under which the Council has taken up Kashmir which, by a decision of the Council, remains on the list for this year,&#8221; the spokesman added.
> 
> 
> Earlier, a spokesman for the Pakistan Mission clarified that Pakistan&#8217;s Acting Ambassador Amjad Hussain Sial, in his speech to the General Assembly on Friday, November 12 had referred to the omission of Jammu and Kashmir dispute in a statement by the President of the Security Council, and NOT from the Council&#8217;s Annual Report-as reported in a section of press.
> &#8220;The agenda item entitled, &#8216;India and Pakistan Question&#8217;, which covers Jammu and Kashmir dispute, is duly mentioned in the Annual Report of the Security Council and is also present on its agenda,&#8221; Spokesman Mian
> 
> Jehangir Iqbal said in a statement. In his statement, the 15-member Council&#8217;s President for the current month, British Ambassador Mark Lyall Grant, while presenting the Annual Report to the 192-member assembly, did not mention the Kashmir dispute in the context of unresolved long-running situations, despite the fact decades-old issue is included in the Annual Report.
> 
> &#8220;We understand this was an inadvertent omission, as Jammu and Kashmir is one of the oldest disputes on agenda of the Security Council,&#8221; Ambassador Sial remarked, after Grant&#8217;s statement. Meanwhile, Pakistan&#8217;s UN Ambassador Abdullah Hussain Haroon, who is on a visit to Pakistan, said there was no question of the Kashmir issue being dropped from the Council&#8217;s agenda. &#8220;The Security Council Report in its annexures is explicit,&#8221; he said in a statement.
> &#8220;The President of the Security Council, the Permanent Representative of the UK, is amply clear on the subject and is cognizant of the matter. I would request all concerned not to speculate unnecessarily upon the subject&#8221;
> 
> http://ftpapp.app.com.pk/en_/index.p...22259&Itemid=2.


The link to Security Council page is here. Click on 'Annual Report' and it will give the list of Annual Reports right from 2001-2002. Now once you have downloaded the Report(s) go straight to Part V (for all the reports it is the same). It deals with '_Matters brought to the attention of the Security Council but not discussed at meetings of the Council during the period covered_'. This is where the 'India-Pakistan question' finds its place. Meaning that Kashmir issue is regularly raised, by hook or crook - this time it was by Syria - but has never been discussed since 2001-2002 (actually since lot earlier than that), indicating that Kashmir issue is a 'dead dodo' to UN.

I am not sure what Mr Sial was getting at by his comment '_an inadvertent omission_'. It was neither 'inadvertent' nor was it an 'omission'. [I had mentioned in another thread that it is a 'clerical error'. I stand corrected.]

Much ado about nothing. I hope the Pakistani internet _kommandu_s can take a break now.

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## karan.1970

Jana said:


> hahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
> 
> 
> You idiots. It would have been nice for all those morons to watch the video before posting it everywhere with false claims.
> 
> This protest was staged in wake of a firing incident during elections in 2009 in Gilgit Baltistan wherein all political parties took part.
> 
> The activists of PPP and the rival group contesting elections opened fire which led to killing of a young boy.
> 
> lolzzzzzzzzzzzzzz you indians. i feel really sorry for this mentality of some indians. You guys cling to straws that too the wet straws that can not give you support for even neno second



The woman being interviewed though said that Police fired on the crowd resulting in the death.. 

Anyway, Kashmir aside, the Police in our part of the world must be the worst in the world for crowd control.

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## graphican

karan.1970 said:


> Guys.. Its simple.. The resolution has not be quashed. So there is no formal removal of Kashmir dispute from the list. *Howeer the resoltion that has been made defunct has lost the mind share of the world at large,* which is reflected in the fact that it is no longer refered to when the key conflicts / disputes around the world are discussed in the UNSC. If another article in this thread is to be believed, not even once since 2000. Take it as you will.. As I said yesterday, this just adds one more point for people on different forums to argue about..


 
A wishful thinking my friend.. if it had lost the intrest of the "world" at large, it would have been out of UN disputed list because India has probably all the good chips which it can use to manipulate the "world". So the moment we stand, UN declares Kashmir as a disputed territory between India and Pakistan.

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## INDIAN007

Jana said:


> hahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
> 
> 
> You idiots. It would have been nice for all those morons to watch the video before posting it everywhere with false claims.
> 
> This protest was staged in wake of a firing incident during elections in 2009 in Gilgit Baltistan wherein all political parties took part.
> 
> The activists of PPP and the rival group contesting elections opened fire which led to killing of a young boy.
> 
> lolzzzzzzzzzzzzzz you indians. i feel really sorry for this mentality of some indians. You guys cling to straws that too the wet straws that can not give you support for even neno second



Watch The Video Again


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## muse

I


> n his statement, the 15-member Councils President for the current month, British Ambassador Mark Lyall Grant, while presenting the Annual Report to the 192-member assembly, did not mention the Kashmir dispute in the context of unresolved long-running situations, despite the fact decades-old issue is included in the Annual Report.
> 
> We understand this was an inadvertent omission, as Jammu and Kashmir is one of the oldest disputes on agenda of the Security Council, Ambassador Sial remarked, after Grants statement.




Mark Lyall ( as in Lyallpur) Grant was most recently UK ambassador in Pakistan where among other things he fixed the return of Mr. Nawaz Sharif


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## muse

This is what Indian friends are like now, imagine them with a UNSC seat Anybody ever see that movie "the party" with Peter Sellers -- it's funny and sad.....and scary


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## graphican

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA... look at the "picture" India is trying to show.. Indians you are Indians!


PPP Murdabad and Indian media listens it as Pakistan Army.. fcours there is some connection between the two as both start with alphabet *P*.   

What an Indian!


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## SQ8

Thread reported for deletion.

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## Hindustani

graphican said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHA... look at the "picture" India is trying to show.. Indians you are Indians!



And pakistanis you are pakistanis


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## Pagla Dashu

graphican said:


> A wishful thinking my friend.. if it had lost the intrest of the "world" at large, it would have been out of UN disputed list because India has probably all the good chips which it can use to manipulate the "world". So the moment we stand, UN declares Kashmir as a disputed territory between India and Pakistan.


Au contraire, Kashmir, as 'India-Pakistan question', consistently appearing under '_Matters brought to the attention of the Security Council *but not discussed* at meetings of the Council during the period covered_', is indicative of world's opinion.

Now take a chill pill. Pronto.

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## Spring Onion

INDIAN007 said:


> Watch The Video Again



Why dont you watch again and again and try to come up with some damage control otherwise no propaganda of your in future will have any face saving among your own countrymen.


Oh FYI i dont need to watch it again we were part of media coverage during the election in Gilgit Baltistan province.


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## Spring Onion

karan.1970 said:


> The woman being interviewed though said that Police fired on the crowd resulting in the death..
> 
> Anyway, Kashmir aside, the Police in our part of the world must be the worst in the world for crowd control.



Police is pathetic and the reason is police here is not free from political influence in many parts of Pakistan.

firing during elections by political activists in Pakistan is not a new thing.


The amusing thing is that you Indians have posted it with false orange claims.


made my day


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## Imran Khan

every one has right of protest.but look protests in your side one women here you start dancing but hundreds of thusends protesters u dont care what a pathic you are.


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## jha

An open letter to Arundhati Roy | Blog of Pagal Patrakar

go through the post..

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## Hindustani

jha said:


> An open letter to Arundhati Roy | Blog of Pagal Patrakar
> 
> go through the post..



 Damn dude, I dropped my food all over my shirt!

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## muse

That's between a rock and a hard place for our Indian friends - If only Kashmir were not a problem - everyday the kashmir dispute festers it serves to remind peoples that it is acceptable to majorities in India that a Muslim majority area in what Indians call India, continue to suffer, and where the armed forces engage in behavior that tarnishes the reputation of India and worse still of it's standing as a democracy.


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## jha

&#2361;&#2367;&#2344;&#2381;&#2342;&#2370;&#2360;&#2381;&#2340;&#2366;&#2344;&#2368;;1272569 said:


> Damn dude, I dropped my food all over my shirt!



 i know..


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## roach

Dude.

Anything associated with Arundhati Roy is now (officially) a joke. 

Nobody is arresting her, she must have been shattered when there was no midnight knock on her door, coz now no more free publicity.

Keep posting, knock yourself out. I'm lovin' it

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## para-site

This is equally good--> Truth hurts (follow up to the Open Letter to Arundhati Roy) | Blog of Pagal Patrakar


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## Ammyy

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Murtaza Shibli guardian.co.uk,
> Thursday 28 October 2010 13.59
> 
> The news that the prize-winning Indian author Arundhati Roy may be arrested for her remarks about Kashmir is not surprising. It is a sign of growing Indian intolerance towards the issue.



Well Indian government follow really good method to *ignore her *  Bechari 

No free attention for her 

@ Pakistani members we dnt want to arrest her dnt wary ..... After criticizing India she can still live in India *thts the democracy and freedom of speech* 


Jai Hind


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## karan.1970

graphican said:


> A wishful thinking my friend.. if it had lost the intrest of the "world" at large, it would have been out of UN disputed list because India has probably all the good chips which it can use to manipulate the "world". So the moment we stand, UN declares Kashmir as a disputed territory between India and Pakistan.



And UN *refused to discuss *the so called dispute for last 10 years or more and the UN Sec Gen *refused *to use his good offices unless not only Pakistan, but *India as well asks him *to do so.

Take it as you will

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## Ganga

Whether Kashmir is there in the agenda or not,it does not make much of a difference.The UN is unable to stop Iran in it's hunt for nuclear power.It could not stop the invasion of Iraq.It will be unable to resolve the Kashmiri dispute.


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## Rafi

Pakistan is the largest contributor to UN peace keeping, they did not have the guts to piss us off.

Plus:-

*As the crowd continued to swell I listened carefully to the slogans, because rhetoric often holds the key to all kinds of understanding. There were plenty of insults and humiliation for India: Ay jabiron ay zalimon, Kashmir hamara chhod do (Oh oppressors, Oh wicked ones, Get out of our Kashmir.) The slogan that cut through me like a knife and clean broke my heart was this one: Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itself - Pakistan.)*

As long as the people of Kashmir feel like this, then this dispute will continue.

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## India Rising




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## Pagla Dashu

Rafi said:


> The slogan that cut through me like a knife and clean broke my heart was this one: Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itself - Pakistan.)[/B]


Since Ms Arundhati Roy is the apple of Pakistan's eye; she this to say about that slogan:

_'...how angry and upset I was when I heard the slogan Bhooka Nanga Hindustan, Jaan se pyaara Pakistan on the streets of Srinagar during the 2008 uprising. I said *it shocked me that Kashmiris were mocking the very people who were victims of the same State that was brutalising them. I said that to me this was blinkered, shallow politics*.'_

Even someone like Ms Roy finds it repulsive. You are way too immature to realise that as long as Kashmiris keep up with this kind of hubris, India is safe.


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## MYSTIC

Produced by Native Voice Films
Distributed by Journeyman Pictures


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## A1Kaid

Really interesting documentary, I think it sheds light onto a dark, oppressed, and sad part of the world. I hope the people of Kashmir will one day reach their aspirations.


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## PeacefulIndian

As the title of the news says - Down and nearly out.  

Pragmatic Euphony Down (and nearly out)







A dramatic decrease in the fatalities in the valley starting 2001 (Read WoT). Note the sharp decrease in infiltration, accidental civilian deaths & security personnel deaths. 

My take - keep the WoT going and we will see the graph touch the zero line in next couple of years. Should work very well for both, Pakistan and India.


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## BATMAN

Why shall some one believe your self suiting data, when all millitant killing is a big farce.

Army commits fake encounter in J&K

Fake Encounter Killings Epidemic


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## graphican

^^^

I hope this WAT also starts in India so our rates of civilian and military death equally go down. 

On the side note, we are already turning the tide of terrorism down.. so your "Happy Days" are most likely ending with the year 2010!


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## graphican

ASP007 said:


> This is his daily routine, even if he forgot to take food, never miss this



Yes we know Indians do that.. You just did again!

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## Abu Zolfiqar

From Fire to Facebook in Kashmir - by Yousra Y. Fazili | The AfPak Channel​


> India cracked down on Kashmiri protesters in the streets. But on Facebook, Kashmiris in the valley, across the Line of Control, and in the diaspora urged their friends and family to change their profile pictures to a single simple message of solidarity: "I protest."
> 
> This summer as Kashmiris took to the streets, pelting rocks, holding sit-ins, and chanting slogans during demonstrations in the moments between eerily empty streets where haartal (strikes) and military-enforced curfews, closed the city, a Facebook campaign went viral.
> 
> The campaign was a simple two words "I protest."
> 
> For a people without a national flag, let alone consensus on what a solution for Kashmir would look like, there are no simple symbols for an expression of nationalism.
> 
> *Yet overnight on Facebook, Kashmiris in the valley, across the Line of Control, and in the diaspora urged their friends and family to change their profile pictures to a single simple message of solidarity: "I protest." *
> 
> But what exactly is it that Kashmiris are protesting? The Indian presence in Kashmir is nothing new, and this summer's violence did not match that of 1989 when Kashmiris took up arms in an effort to be rid of Indian control over the region.
> 
> The summer of 2010 was marked by calls for trilateral talks as protests seeking azadi (independence), curfews, and strikes spread from the capital of Srinagar throughout the valley of Indian-administered Kashmir. Tensions had been mounting since the summer of 2009 when the May 30 alleged rape and murder of two young women, Nilofer Shakeel and Asiya Jan from the apple orchard village of Shopian by Indian security forces sparked protests throughout Kashmir.
> 
> *The case came to represent several injustices: rape as a weapon of war, a Delhi-based effort to cover up the crime, and the immunity that shields the allegedly criminal behavior of Indian security forces in Kashmir.*
> 
> Though protests and demonstrations against India's policies in Kashmir continued throughout the year, popular discontent was catalyzed on June 11 when local police in Kashmir killed 17-year-old high school student Tufail Ahmad Matoo, who had been walking, backpack in hand, close to a demonstration.
> 
> His death marked the fourth time in 2010 where police and CRFP (India's paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force) killed teenagers through the use of excessive force.
> 
> *The ensuing demonstrations opened the floodgates of popular expression against India's heavy-handed military rule and the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (applied to Kashmir since 1990), which gives the Indian army and paramilitary forces sweeping powers to shoot and kill, search homes and people, detain civilians indefinitely without charges, and confiscate property. *
> 
> Human rights organizations like Human Rights Watch have decried the Armed Forces Special Powers Act because it shields soldiers from prosecution while opening the door to rampant human rights violations.
> 
> *A few years ago mainstream Kashmiri separatists consciously began to turn away from violent methods towards peaceful civil disobedience. Yet even these efforts, with sit-down demonstrations, rallies, frequent strikes and stone-pelting, have been met with disproportionate excessive force by Indian security forces including bullets and tear gas. Approximately 245 teenage stone throwers have been held in indefinite custody since June. *
> 
> These abuses face scant media attention, both from the Indian and international media. This is largely due to India's policies blocking journalists from entering Kashmir, making media coverage of Kashmir a near impossibility in times of unrest.
> 
> *However, Kashmiris are slowly harnessing the power of the internet to create a communal digital protest and to forge a voice for themselves in the democratic realm of cyberspace. In 2010 Kashmir's Generation Next, those who were born or young during the turbulence of the 1990s, found their voices. *
> 
> Unlike Kashmiri youth of the 1990s who were silenced given India's media, U.N. and NGO blackout of Kashmir, new technologies and social media have made it possible for Kashmiris to begin to tell their own stories, to have a voice and a narrative that can reach beyond the Valley and into international consciousness.
> 
> *Facebook and You Tube have been transformative, creating a cadre of citizen-journalists and more artistic expressions in which Kashmiris create video montages set to music and images, providing a voice whether in Kashmiri or English, such as Kashmiri-American Mubashir Mohi-u-Din's take on the Steven Van Zandt song Patriot. *
> 
> This summer Kashmir's youth have learned two lessons from other international struggles for justice: Iran and Palestine. In 2009 Iranian youth and social activists harnessed the power of social media as young Iranians took to the internet and street in the face of state suppression. Iranians demanded "where is my vote?" -- the slogan, appearing curiously and ubiquitously in English, was meant for an international audience, to raise attention to the struggles occurring within the Islamic Republic of Iran after the results of the presidential election were called into question.
> 
> Similarly, "I protest" cries out in a language that is not native to Kashmir but has united Kashmiris globally as they seek an international audience.
> 
> The second lesson has come from the first Palestinian intifada of 1987, which started shortly before Kashmiris began to protest in earnest on a cold January day in 1989 against rigged election results. Unlike the "children of the stone," the moniker given to the stone wielding youths who sought a way to express their discontent with Israeli occupation, the Kashmiris of the early 1990s soon turned to violent means to oppose India's acute military presence and perceived human rights violations.
> 
> *Since that time both documented human rights violations and a strong military presence of 700,000 continues; there is one Indian security personnel for every 20 Kashmiris. In 1995, Yasin Malik, the head of the populist Jammu & Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF), publicly renounced violence as a means of liberation. While this tactic created divisions within the JKLF, Kashmiris are turning away from weapons to adopt less violent means.*
> 
> Last year Malik continued his efforts to encourage a passive resistance marked by sit-ins, strikes, and the lesson from the intifada, throwing stones instead of exchanging bullets.
> 
> Kashmiris have made a critical move from guns to stones. They have largely moved from militancy to civil demonstrations and protests. Despite this shift, India has failed to recognize how the shift to less violent tactics has opened a space for dialogue and continued its heavy-handed policies, which only stir resentment towards India.
> 
> *Just recently, acclaimed novelist Arundhati Roy faced possible sedition charges for criticizing India's military occupation and for suggesting that force may not be the best means to keep India a cohesive nation.*
> 
> *She cast her support for the Azadi movement, which she characterized as a struggle for justice. *
> 
> Yet, despite tactics meant to invoke international sympathy and raise attention for the people of Kashmir, Kashmiris remain outsiders to a process that will decide their fate.
> 
> *Kashmiris hope that Kashmir will be more than a talking point regarding Indian and Pakistani security, more than a discussion of jihadi movements from Afghanistan into India, and more than a focal point of Indian-Pakistani tension. *
> 
> Perhaps what they protest most is their invisibility, the refusal to see Kashmiris as part of a solution. The iProtest refuses the bilateral assumption of India-Pakistan negotiations that leave Kashmiris silenced.
> 
> Remarking on the political nature of current unrest in Kashmir and India's refusal to seek productive dialogue with separatists, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, a leader of All Parties Hurriyat Conference, remarked: "It is the youth of Kashmir agitating. Why are they throwing stones and risking their lives? No one wants to hear their story." Indeed, the e-protest of this summer remains a real protest on the ground, with flesh and blood casualties. The iProtest has moved beyond Facebook and Blogspot; it has sparked hope in a young generation while renewing the hopes of an older generation, that maybe the critical moment has come when someone will look to the "I" who protests to ask exactly what is it that they want, and perhaps, we should listen in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Yousra Y. Fazili is a Kashmiri-American attorney based in Washington DC where she works on South Asian and Middle East policy. A Fulbright Scholar and graduate of Brown University and Harvard Divinity School, she has worked with the U.S. Department of Justice and the United Nations. _

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## A1Kaid

I must say the Kashmiris are a determined people, they have resisted against incredible odds, and are still standing on their feet and refuse to bow down. I admire their tenacity and courage.

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## unicorn

Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves.

*Abraham Lincoln*


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## KS

unicorn said:


> Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves.
> 
> *Abraham Lincoln*



You quoted the same man who went to war to prevent secession and to preserve the Territorial Integrity of America and in the process denied the Right of Self Determination to the Confedarate states.

A rich irony and good role model for India to emulate

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## Hulk

Ahh so if you are bored, open a thread on Kashmir and start bashing game.

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## Gandhi G in da house

Rafi said:


> i*t shocked me that Kashmiris were mocking the very people who were victims of the same State that was brutalising them.
> *
> 
> Yes, we agree with Ms Roy that the same state is brutalising the poor people of india, and that the indian establishment and it's cabal is the biggest enemy of the downtrodden masses of india.
> 
> She misunderstood the slogan, *bhooka nanga hindustan and jaan se pyara Pakistan * was meant as a rebuke for the indian state, which prefers to spend billions on weapons, while 80&#37; of indians live on less than half a dollar a day. And the offical definition of poverty by the indian state is *12 rupees a day*.



Factually incorrect posts as the 80% figure was derived form a survey done in 2005 since then India has growth at average 8 % each year and even the Rs 12 per day figure in very old.

anyway your entire post has nothing to do with kashmir , your frustration and jealousy led you to start talking about Indian poverty inspite of coming from a third world , poor failed state yourself. 

trolling mein hum apke baap lagte hain naam hai nick_indian.


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## unicorn

Karthic Sri said:


> You quoted the same man who went to war to prevent secession and to preserve the Territorial Integrity of America and in the process denied the Right of Self Determination to the Confedarate states.
> 
> A rich irony and good role model for India to emulate



First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. 

*Mohandas Gandhi*


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## PakSher

My fellow Indians, I have called the fire department, all Indians that are on fire from this truth, just hang on, help is on the way for you and also for the Kashmiri Freedom Movement Oppressors. Do not forget to use anti-burn cream and some red cillies on top. Hope you feel better.


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## S_O_C_O_M

Karthic Sri said:


> You quoted the same man who went to war to prevent secession and to preserve the Territorial Integrity of America and in the process denied the Right of Self Determination to the Confedarate states.
> 
> A rich irony and good role model for India to emulate



The war was centered over slavery... no need to omit facts to suit your propagandist agenda.


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## S_O_C_O_M

DRDO said:


> Well Indian government follow really good method to *ignore her *  Bechari
> 
> No free attention for her
> 
> @ Pakistani members we dnt want to arrest her dnt wary ..... After criticizing India she can still live in India *thts the democracy and freedom of speech*
> 
> 
> Jai Hind




Arundhati Roy's house attacked - Asia, World - The Independent

Jai Hind


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## PakSher

DRDO said:


> Well Indian government follow really good method to *ignore her *  Bechari
> 
> No free attention for her
> 
> @ Pakistani members we dnt want to arrest her dnt wary ..... After criticizing India she can still live in India *thts the democracy and freedom of speech*
> 
> 
> Jai Hind



Freedom is allowed by the Pakistani Defence Forum alone and not any source in India can match that. You get banned in one day, if Pakistanis express their opinions on Indian Defence Forums, so do not get me started on the freedom in India.


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## cloneman

Another Indian wet dream.


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## Hulk

The Jammu and Kashmir situation: What after the Obama visit? (Part 1) | National News

New Delhi, Nov.15 : A question frequently asked in Jammu and Kashmir is where do we (India) go from here. An equally valid question in the Valley now is where do the separatists go from here.

The Obama visit was being looked upon with anticipation of some major development, as the climax of the five month long agitation. It was supposed to have put the Kashmir issue firmly on the international map and drowned India in a chorus of opprobrium led by the world&#8217;s most powerful man. Net result would have been to force India to start talking about conceding Azadi. 

The people had been led to believe that since Obama had talked about Kashmir in the run-up to the presidential elections in 2008, he would, on Indian soil, certainly articulate his vision about it. 

Instead, Obama came; he praised India to high heaven, offered a global partnership and a seat on the high table of the UNSC. In the bargain he took back badly needed jobs for the US economy and talked about human rights in Burma.

Salt was rubbed on their wounds when Obama expressed support for India&#8217;s membership of the Security Council despite the separatist chat of non-implementation of the UN resolutions on plebiscite in Kashmir

*The Valley was stunned, the separatist leaders even more so. They were embarrassed at having been found out, at having led the ordinary people up the garden path, at having disrupted their lives, causing huge economic losses and worse, causing the death of 111, mostly young, people. There is a palpable sense of disillusionment and betrayal with the separatists.* 

he people of the Valley are now asking searching questions and demanding answers from the separatists. Quite suddenly even the tech-savvy faceless Facebookers seem to have faded, leaving the masses in the lurch just like the separatists have left them. 

The separatists have a tough time in trying to explain why Obama did not comment about the 111 deaths since June 11 while he waxed eloquent about Burma. Not a word of sympathy for those who had lost loved ones? 

Clinging to morsels, the separatists are flogging the point, indeed celebrating it, that Obama recognized Kashmir as a long-standing dispute that needed to be resolved. Geelani credited this to the recent uprising and the sacrifices made by the people in the last five months. Mirwaiz, with his two lakh signatures seeking US intervention, saw in this as a sign of US facilitation. Yasin Malik welcomed the statement as helping in the resolution of the dispute. 

But the people are aghast that this response to a question was being touted as a victory by the separatists. 111 deaths for a mere reiteration of a long-standing US position and too, in reply to a question? Did so many have to die for this? People are openly questioning if so many sacrifices and such massive economic loss was needed only for this statement. 

Worse, it has not escaped notice, that Obama underlined that the starting point of the Indo-Pak dialogue should not be &#8216;that particular flashpoint&#8221; (i.e. Kashmir), echoing the consistent Indian position. He also made it clear that the US was not interested in unsolicited intervention on the subject. Topping it ll was his praise for Indian democracy and secularism

The separatists have clearly been discredited. Not only the Obama visit, but there are other signs of change, too. *Despite Geelani&#8217;s resistance, schools reopened on Sept. 27 and were marked by gradual increase in attendance. More recently, scores of people protested in Lal Chowk against shutdowns. There has been dismay when in Shopian, two civilians died when the vehicle in which they were travelling turned turtle following acts of stone pelting. Many traders and transporters have defied the protest calendar and carried on their business as usual. *
With the obvious declining impact of total shutdowns, Geelani has been forced to tone down drastically his protest calendar with only 2-3 days of strikes in the latest 12-day period. In the past, the equation was the reverse. 

What has been noticeable is that the shutdowns started running out of steam soon after the arrest of Masarrat Alam on October 18, 2010. This further reinforces the perception that it is not Geelani that is/has been in control. 

*Geelani, of course, is making his way to his house in New Delhi&#8217;s upmarket Malviya Nagar *for the winter, leaving the hapless stone-pelters and the distraught parents of those who lost loved ones to their own devices. 

In seeking continued sacrifices from the people, Geelani and company have failed to recognize that Obama&#8217;s focus was the economy and job losses in the US. The world sees a &#8216;risen&#8217; India in a very different light than what Geelani would like to see India in. Perhaps the salubrious winter in Delhi will help him rethink his strategy for 2011 and come up with an alternative to getting innocent people killed so that he can continue to retain his hold. 

However, disillusionment with the separatists and with Obama&#8217;s silence coupled with petering of agitations should not be seen as the problem having gone away. Clearly, prolonged hartals have lost their sale by date. As Omar Abdullah called it &#8216;hartal fatigue&#8217;. But the political problem remains.

This has significant and potentially dangerous implications for the future of the Valley. These will be elaborated in Part II of this article. by Salim Haq (ANI)

Attn: News Editors/News Desks: Mr. Salim Haq has authored the above article and the views expressed in tem are his.

*My dear friend Ejazr posted this in some other forum, beautiful article.*

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## Hulk

The Jammu and Kashmir Situation-What after the Obama visit (Part II) 

By Salim Haq

New Delhi, Nov.16 (ANI): As the disillusionment with the separatists grows and the Valley hunkers down for the winter, it is necessary that the lessons of the past five months are understood and policies designed that would factor in the developments.

The agitations were premised on the hope that an unarmed struggle against a mighty state apparatus would capture the imagination of the international community. Pak-sponsored violence over the past two decades had discredited the &#8216;movement&#8217; without being even close to &#8216;Azadi&#8217;. The only thing to show for it was the loss of an entire generation and almost every house in the Valley mourning its dead in state or terrorist violence.

However, an unarmed struggle without the baggage of Pak-sponsored terrorism, would find support internationally, especially, if the Indian security forces responded ham-handedly and the body count mounted. This international support would force India to start talking about conceding Azadi.

*The climax of the agitation and the body count was to be the visit of President Obama. For three days, people of the Valley, like elsewhere in India, sat glued to their TV sets, anticipating the moment when the dreams sold to them by the separatists would fructify.

That moment never really came. Despite whatever mileage the separatists may have tried to extract from Obama&#8217;s response to a question referring to Kashmir as a long-standing dispute, the people now know that the dreams sold to them were just that, dreams.*
The immediate question that arises is whether the hope that the Kashmir issue can be resolved peacefully will fade away? And, will it get replaced by the third generation picking up the gun? Will the gun-toting hawks, backed by Pakistan, dominate again?

Those in authority must realise the confusion in young minds. On the one hand, after having been compared to the intifada, after being lavished with praise for staring down armed security forces with nothing more than stones, their brief struggle was ignored by the international community. *On the other hand, fed on a daily diet of hatred of India, they saw for themselves the most powerful man in the world praise India for its democracy and secularism.*
As winter sets in, hartal fatigue takes over and the separatists desert them. Where does it leave them and their struggle?

It would be very easy to exploit this vulnerability, this sense of hurt, by Pak-sponsored, self-seeking hawks peddling violence as the only way out. Already, in the past few days, there has been a spurt in terrorist violence and attacks in the Valley. Obama&#8217;s admonishment about terror safe havens in Pakistan notwithstanding, this violence is the terrorists&#8217; way of saying that all is not lost and violence is very much an option.

The government has won a reprieve, but it is just that, a reprieve, and not because of its own policies. It cannot, and must not, rest on hartal fatigue but press home the advantage to further narrow the space for the separatists. Here are a few suggestions:

First, the vulnerable youth must be given an alternative slogan and the hope that peace is the only way forward and their aspirations can be accommodated by a country that has just been lavished generous praise for its democracy and pluralism.

Second, the eight-point package must be implemented in toto. It is essential that those jailed over the last three months for stone pelting be released after doing the necessary checks. It is even more crucial that there should no fresh deaths in incidents of firing by the security forces. Mercifully, the days of prolonged curfew are a thing of the past and it must be ensured that this remains so. Protests should be held peacefully and managed imaginatively without provocation or violence.

Third, the two mainstream state parties have a huge role to play. They have to come out from the shadows, take to the streets and once again regain the political space they had surrendered to the separatists in the summer. They will have to stop scoring points against each other, which only benefits the separatists. While the National Conference has to take the PDP on board, the PDP, in turn, has to stop adopting postures that seeks to take advantage of the situation.

Fourth, the perception in the Valley that Delhi cares only for those who challenge the validity of the 1947 accession must be reversed. The Home Minister&#8217;s statement that Jammu and Kashmir had acceded to India in unique circumstances, the State had a unique problem and requires a unique solution; Omar Abdullah&#8217;s erroneous assertion about a difference between accession and merger etc, strengthen the separatist claims that there was something wrong with accession. This has to stop.

Fifth, the government must factor in that the agitation of the stone pelters have forced the separatist leaders to dilute the pro-Pakistan tilt. Gen Next does not see a future with Pakistan, realizing that something very wrong is happening there. It is not slogans of &#8216;Kashmir Banega Pakistan&#8217; that rent the air but of &#8216;Azadi&#8217;. This has implications for any dialogue with Pakistan.

The fact that this has got Pakistan worried is evidenced by the fact of their bringing out Amanullah Khan from retirement and making him launch a &#8216;Quit Kashmir&#8217; movement in P-O-K in an attempt to take control of the movement in the Valley.

*Finally, Geelani and company, have to be shown up for what they are - self-seeking leaders wanting to grab next day&#8217;s headlines at the expense of the people. *A litmus test for the separatists would be the care they take of families of those who died in the recent violence.

It would be an anathema for separatists if people started exploring alternatives to protests and violence in the Valley.

Hence, Geelani would persist with his protest calendar, even a toned down one, to ensure that a conducive and peaceful atmosphere is not created. He has no alternatives, victim as he is of his own pronouncements. And since his bread and butter is dependent on separatism, nothing the government can or will do will satisfy him and his ilk.

Therefore, the government has to ensure that the protest calendar fails and fails every-time. The government will have to reach out to those who don&#8217;t want to follow the calendar, but are afraid of resisting. The government will have to ensure their safety. Above all, the government must extend a helping hand to those unfortunate families who lost loved ones and those who were injured.

What about the interlocutors? Unfortunately, they began as if they were in a 20-20 game rather than for a long haul five-day test match. They have acted as if they had ready-made answers to a complex issue that has defied solution for 63 years.

After being admonished by the Home Minister and the media, they seem to be settling down to a 50 overs match, but mentally still not in Test match mode.

They also have to craft a role for themselves- Are they players, extras, on field umpires, third umpires or scorers? Lack of clarity about their role or rather an exaggerated sense of their role, has also led to some astounding statements and claims. (ANI)

Attn: News Editors/News Desks: The views expressed in the above article are that of Mr. Salim Haq.

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## Hulk

Please visit this thread.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...ation-what-after-obama-visit.html#post1273922


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## Hulk

In a way this agitation is very good for India. Looking at what the current situation is it has sent an important message.

Even after 6 months of protest and stone pelting *you can gain nothing*.
This is important, like people get boared of terrorism as it was achieving nothing, they will now know stone pelting will not yeild anything either.

Basically any movement will gain momentum if people feel they can get results and opposite will happen if the result is not forthcoming.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

For those questioning Farhan Haq based on the incident earlier this year, keep in mind that the Indian media was strongly criticized by the UN for slandering Haq and clarified that he had done nothing wrong. 

The statement in the Pakistani media is sourced to the UN spokesperson and therefore is completely credible.

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## Typhoon

How does it matter? Its still *not* listed in UN List...and Mr Haq *cannot* get it sorted out...Hope pakistanis can celebrate ED in peace and hope they don't go on a rampage in their own country first!!


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## black_magic pk

where is the champagne bottle

champagne for every one!!!!!!!!!!1haaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhahahahahaha

the best eid gift we had


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## Typhoon

black_magic pk said:


> where is the champagne bottle
> 
> champagne for every one!!!!!!!!!!1haaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhahahahahaha
> 
> the best eid gift we had



Buddy its still not listed, though I believe its a mistake!!

However, have *Non-alcoholic* champagne on ED


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## black_magic pk

even if UN rejects kashmir as a dispute, we dont care as long as kashmiris are willing to be liberated from tyranny, its the strive that counts, countless UN resolutions and bhuka nanga hindostan doesnt want to respect the UN treaty, india has already said UN fk you we dont give you damn, UN has no value, countries just need to get out of UNo mania, and every thing is fine, UN is not the worl;d organization, its just puppet voice of america.. as hamid kerzai is

pakistan hasnt produced for kashmir through UN, if u make kashmiris contended for hindustan then we will say its true victory for it..


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## Typhoon

black_magic pk said:


> even if UN rejects kashmir as a dispute, we dont care as long as kashmiris are willing to be liberated from tyranny, its the strive that counts, countless UN resolutions and bhuka nanga hindostan doesnt want to respect the UN treaty, india has already said UN fk you we dont give you damn, UN has no value, countries just need to get out of UNo mania, and every thing is fine, UN is not the worl;d organization, its just puppet voice of america.. as hamid kerzai is


 
Point Taken! Then as per your own logic same goes for all the states in Pakistan who are fighting for Azadi and in your own words:

And I quote:



> They are willing to be liberated from tyranny, its the strive that counts, countless UN resolutions and bhuka nanga Pa...... doesnt want to respect the UN treaty, Pa........... has already said UN fk you we dont give you damn, UN has no value, countries just need to get out of UNo mania, and every thing is fine, UN is not the worl;d organization, its just puppet voice of america.. as hamid kerzai is


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## Hindustani

S_O_C_O_M said:


> _Jai Hind_



I'm glad pakistanis are starting to say that


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## Hindustani

No resolutions regarding Jammu & Kashmir even on the official UN site 

UN Security Council: Resolutions 2010

I've only heard this bs on greenmedia


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## Rafi

Keep on ranting guys, the Kashmiri have spoken in their hundreds of thousands, even mr abdullah a member of indian establishment has admitted that the status quo is no longer exceptable.


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## Typhoon

Rafi said:


> Keep on ranting guys, the Kashmiri have spoken in their hundreds of thousands, even mr abdullah a member of indian establishment has admitted that the status quo is no longer exceptable.



Then ask mister Abdullah to change the status quo?? Or You will go to UN? Decide first!!

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## Hindustani

Rafi said:


> Keep on ranting guys, the Kashmiri have spoken in their hundreds of thousands, even mr abdullah a member of indian establishment has admitted that the status quo is no longer exceptable.



Have you even cared to read what I had posted? Or even go onto the official website?

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## S_O_C_O_M

*Hurriyat leaders felicitate Kashmiri Muslims on Eid ul Azha ​* 
Tuesday, 16 November 2010 20:52 








Srinagar, November 16, 2010: In Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK), All Parties Hurriyat Conference and other liberation leaders have felicitated the Ummah in general and people of Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK) in particular on the eve of Eid-ul-Azha emphasizing that the people of Jammu and Kashmir had rendered matchless sacrifices for achieving right of Self-Determination and their sacrifices would not go waste.

In their separate messages, the APHC Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and other senior Kashmiri Hurriyat leaders, Shabbir Ahmad Shah, Agha Syed Hassan Al-Moosvi, Nayeem Ahmad Khan, Yasmeen Raja, Zaffar Akbar Butt, Mukhtar Ahmad Waza, Farooq Ahmad Dar, Mohammad Frooq Rehmani and Professor Nazir Ahmad Shawl greeting the Muslims, urged the Kashmiri people to observe Eid with austerity.

The leaders have appealed to the people not to forget families who lost their near and dear ones in the ongoing "Quit Kashmir Movement (QKM)". They reaffirmed Kashmiris resolve to remain steadfast on the path shown by prophets Ibrahim and Isamil in the struggle to secure the right of Self-Determination.

The world community should take notice of hundreds of Hurriyat leaders, activists and teenagers languishing in different jails and interrogation centres in OSJK and outside, the leaders added.

At least seven more youth including Tehreek-e-Hurriyat activist were booked by authorities under the draconian law, Public Safety Act (PSA).

Indian armed forces arrested the youth including Hilal Ahmad, Shafeeq Ahmad Sheikh, Showkat Ahmad, Mudasir Ahmad Lone, Mohammad Shafi Sheikh, Javid Ahmad Butt, Basharat Hussain Najar and Tehreek Huriyat activist Bashir Ahmad from their houses in Palhallan, Sheeri and Khawajabagh areas of Baramulla district. Seven youth including Hilal Ahmad, Shafeeq Ahmad Sheikh, Showkat Ahmad, Mudasir Ahmad Lone and Mohammad Shafi Sheikh were booked under PSA and shifted to Udhampur jail.

Indian armed forces arrested a Muslim League activist, Bashir Ahmad Butt alias Bashir Budgami during house raid from Cheoen in Budgam and was whisked away to some unknown destination.

The APHC spokesman in a statement while strongly condemning the arrests said on one hand India is talking about resolution of Kashmir issue and on the other hand India is contradicting its own claims and arresting political activists in occupied Kashmir. It is clear political vengeance and hooliganism of police, he added.

The Indian authorities placed the APHC Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Mirwaiz Umar Farooq under house arrest, to prevent them from participating in public gatherings. The Indian authorities have not lifted the siege of the house of Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who was arrested on arrival from New Delhi on October 24 after attending a seminar there and put under house arrest at his Hyderpora residence in Srinagar. Meanwhile, Mirwaiz was restricted to his house on Thursday, November 11 and was not allowed to offer Juma prayers at historic Jamia Masjid for eight consecutive Fridays.

All Parties Hurriyet has said that meaningful and result-oriented tripartite dialogue is the only solution to the 63 years old Kashmir dispute. APHC senior leader, Shabbir Ahmad Shah and Nayeem Ahmad Khan while addressing public gatherings in Palhallan and Gohsbug areas of Pattan vowed to take the mission of martyrs to its logical end.

The leaders expressing condolences with the families of youth killed by Indian armed forces during the past five months condemned the atrocities committed by the men in uniform on the people of Palhallan and Goshbug areas.

They said it was because of the sacrifices that Kashmir dispute had attracted international attention. Castigating the authorities for arresting people particularly youth randomly, the leaders said the freedom movement couldnt be crushed through such acts of harassment.

The residents of Pattan and Palhallan would migrate from these areas if Indian armed forces did not stop random arrests and use of brute force, they said. *It is high time for New Delhi to accept the ground realities,* they added.

Hurriyat leaders felicitate Kashmiri Muslims on Eid ul Azha


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## UnitedPak

*Support Kashmir: Iran to Muslims*


> Tehran, Nov 15: Iranian Supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has called for providing assistance to Kashmir engaged in resistance struggle.
> Today the major duties of the elite of the Islamic Ummah is to provide help to the Palestinian nation and the besieged people of Gaza, to sympathize and provide assistance to the nations of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and Kashmir, to engage in struggle and resistance against the aggressions of the United States and the Zionist regime, to safeguard the solidarity of Muslims and stop tainted hands and mercenary voices that try to damage this unity, to spread awakening and the sense of responsibility and commitment among Muslim youth throughout Islamic communities, Khamenei said in his message to the Hajj pilgrims.
> He said the glorious spectacle and stage of Hajj provides Muslim Ummah with an opportunity for the fulfilment of these duties and summons us to intensify and redouble our resolution and efforts.
> The Supreme Leader is positioned at the top of Irans political power structure. He appoints the head of the judiciary, six of the members of the powerful Guardian Council, the commanders of all the armed forces, Friday prayer leaders and the head of radio and TV. He also confirms the presidents election. The Leader is chosen by the clerics who make up the Assembly of Experts.
> In his message Khamenei, described the annual Hajj pilgrimage as a symbol of monotheism and spirituality.
> Khamenei said the expanding wave of Islamic awakening in the world today is a reality that heralds a bright future for the Islamic Ummah. Our great Ummah has continued to march ahead non-stop, removing the obstacles from its way and conquering new fronts. The sophisticated stratagems of the global arrogance and its costly manoeuvres aimed at countering Islam are also a consequence of these victories, he said.
> He said the extensive propaganda of the enemy to spread Islamophobia, its offhand efforts to create discord among Muslim sects, to incite sectarian prejudices, to bring about pseudo-confrontations between the Sunnis and the Shias, to create disunity between Islamic states and to aggravate their differences, to change them into hostility and unsolvable conflicts, its employment of intelligence and espionage outfits to propagate corruption and immorality amongst the youthall these are nervous and bewildered responses to the steady and firm advances of the Islamic Ummah towards awakening, honour and freedom.


Support Kashmir Iran to Muslims Lastupdate:- Tue, 16 Nov 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com

*Khamenei urges Islamic world to "sympathise, provide assistance" to Kashmir*



> Tehran, Nov 16 (ANI): The Supreme leader of Iran, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, has urged the Islamic Ummah to sympathise and provide assistance to Kashmir, and called the United States an arrogant, "self-styled commandant of the Islamic region and the real sponsor of the Zionist regime".
> 
> Buzz up!
> "Today the major duties of the elite of the Islamic Ummah is to provide help to the Palestinian nation and the besieged people of Gaza, to sympathise and provide assistance to the nations of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and Kashmir, to engage in struggle and resistance against the aggressions of the United States and the Zionist regime, to safeguard the solidarity of Muslims and stop tainted hands and mercenary voices that try to damage this unity, to spread awakening and the sense of responsibility and commitment among Muslim youth throughout Islamic communities," Khamenei's office quoted him, as saying, in his message to the Hajj pilgrims.
> 
> 
> "The extensive propaganda of the enemy to spread Islamophobia, its offhand efforts to create discord among Muslim sects, to incite sectarian prejudices, to bring about pseudo-confrontations between the Sunnis and the Shi'ah, to create disunity between Islamic states and to aggravate their differences, to change them into hostility and unsolvable conflicts, its employment of intelligence and espionage outfits to propagate corruption and immorality amongst the youth-all these are nervous and bewildered responses to the steady and firm advances of the Islamic Ummah towards awakening, honour and freedom," he added.
> In his message, Khamenei went on to say, "Today the arrogant United States, the self-styled commandant of the Islamic region and the real sponsor of the Zionist regime, is bogged down in the quagmire of its own making in Afghanistan. As a result of all its crimes against the people of Iraq, it is in the course of becoming isolated in that country. It is hated more than ever before in disaster-stricken Pakistan."
> 
> He said that the influence of the anti-Islamic front was receding while the wave of Islamic awakening was "steadily advancing and growing in depth day by day."
> 
> "On the one hand, this hopeful and promising situation should inspire us, the Muslim nations, to keep marching ahead towards the desirable future with ever greater confidence. On the other hand, the past lessons and experience should make us more vigilant than ever before," said the spiritual leader, adding, "This general imperative undoubtedly calls for greater commitment from religious scholars, political leaders, intellectuals and youth than the others and requires them to be at the vanguard of the struggle." (ANI)


Khamenei urges Islamic world to "sympathise, provide assistance" to Kashmir - Oneindia News

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## gubbi

Ha, this is going to be interesting. India is one of the very few friends Iran has in the UNSC and UNGA. The consequences of this foolish statement by Khameinei would be very interesting to say the least.


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## somebozo

gubbi said:


> Ha, this is going to be interesting. India is one of the very few friends Iran has in the UNSC and UNGA. The consequences of this foolish statement by Khameinei would be very interesting to say the least.



this is why they supported the US led sanctions! friends indeed!

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## Pagla Dashu

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> For those questioning Farhan Haq based on the incident earlier this year, keep in mind that the Indian media was strongly criticized by the UN for slandering Haq and clarified that he had done nothing wrong.


This is just for the record.

UN spokesperson, Mr Martin Nesirky had criticized Indian media for 'insinuations' on Mr Haq's ethnicity. He happens to be an American of Pakistani origin. 

Mr Nesirky did not say anything that would imply that Mr Haq had done 'nothing wrong'. He had first denied that UN Secretary General had made any such comment, which was attributed to him by Mr Haq; then he clarified that it was a 'media guidance', prepared in the Secretariat; then he refused to confirm if the content of the 'media guidance' was same as was claimed by Mr Haq to be a comment of UN Secretary General; and then he refused to entertain any question that he could have easily used to unequivocally exonerate Mr Haq of wrong doing.

There is, therefore, justifiable reason to be wary of what Mr Haq says, particularly to the Pakistani media. His credibility to us, is zero.


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## somebozo

please do not respond to Sectarianism comments. The Indian insecurity and embarrassment forces them to give different excuses to IOK freedom movement which otherwise its totally indigenous. Lie until it sounds truthful is the Indian motto.

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## S_O_C_O_M

somebozo said:


> please do not respond to Sectarianism comments. The Indian insecurity and embarrassment forces them to give different excuses to IOK freedom movement which otherwise its totally indigenous. *Lie until it sounds truthful is the Indian motto.*



This is 100% correct.

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## Pagla Dashu

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> 3rd did u go and ask the sec of millions of kashmiris?


I didn't. But several independent agencies did go ask the 'millions' of Kashmiris.


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## Areesh

Pagla Dashu said:


> That is why this gentleman needs a lesson in demography of Kashmir and also about individual aspirations of these disparate communities.
> 
> Thanks for the duh moment.



well he knows about the freedom movement of Kashmir and also has information about unrest their. That is more than enough for him to plea support for the occupied Kashmir's freedom. He might not be interested in dividing people of IOK on sect, religion and creed.


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## Areesh

somebozo said:


> please do not respond to Sectarianism comments. The Indian insecurity and embarrassment forces them to give different excuses to IOK freedom movement which otherwise its totally indigenous. Lie until it sounds truthful is the Indian motto.



Well what else can we expect from them. First it was only Muslim movement with no support from Hindus and Buddhists. Now it is only sunni movement. In future it would be only Deobandi movement and later only Taqleedi movement. Lolzzz. Anyways it is good to see that after centuries of slavery India has learned some old tactics of occupation from it's previous masters. Divide and rule.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Ganguly said:


> "Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has issued a fatwa saying the production, stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons was forbidden under Islam"



Aint tht a good thing? killing of innocents is forbidden in islam.

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## Ammyy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> For those questioning Farhan Haq based on the incident earlier this year, keep in mind that the Indian media was strongly criticized by the UN for slandering Haq and clarified that he had done nothing wrong.
> 
> The statement in the Pakistani media is sourced to the UN spokesperson and therefore is completely credible.



So why only single Pakistani source available for this news ??? 
Is their only one news agency in Pakistan ????? 

This news is not credible


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## KS

S_O_C_O_M said:


> The war was centered over slavery... no need to omit facts to suit your propagandist agenda.



No I have not omitted any facts.

The Southern Confedarate states had their right to self-determination (since you Pakistanis say it is the right of any individual) But Abe Lincoln suppressed it and crushed it.

Its an apt comparison.


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## S_O_C_O_M

Karthic Sri said:


> No I have not omitted any facts.
> 
> The Southern Confedarate states had their right to self-determination (since you Pakistanis say it is the right of any individual) But Abe Lincoln suppressed it and crushed it.
> 
> Its an apt comparison.



The war was primarly over SLAVERY. Again do not omit pertinent facts to suit your propagandist agenda. The lies, fabrications, omission of facts, manipulation of facts, there is no limits with you people is there?


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## S_O_C_O_M

United Nations said:


> *KASHMIR REMAINS ON SECURITY COUNCIL AGENDA:* Asked about media reports suggesting that Kashmir had been removed from a list of Security Council agenda items, the Spokesperson said that the authors of the media articles may have only looked at the most recent addendum to the Summary statement of matters on which the Security Council is seized, which publishes only the list of matters which have been considered in a formal meeting since 1 Jan. 2007. They missed in that addendum a paragraph explaining that the full list appears in Add.9 of Mar. 2010. That list continues to include the agenda items which the Council has taken up, including Kashmir, which, by a decision of the Council, remains on the list for this year.




Scroll all the way to the bottom of U.N.'s page and this is listed under "OTHER ANNOUNCEMENTS" 


*Offical United Nations Page:* Highlights of the Noon Briefing

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## Fireurimagination

Does Ayatollah Ali Khamenei = Iran??? If yes then sure India can vote/loath/support Israel against Iran in public now


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## mjnaushad

UN OFFICIAL SOURCE.




Highlights of the Noon Briefing

*KASHMIR REMAINS ON SECURITY COUNCIL AGENDA: Asked about media reports suggesting that Kashmir had been removed from a list of Security Council agenda items, the Spokesperson said that the authors of the media articles may have only looked at the most recent addendum to the Summary statement of matters on which the Security Council is seized, which publishes only the list of matters which have been considered in a formal meeting since 1 Jan. 2007. They missed in that addendum a paragraph explaining that the full list appears in Add.9 of Mar. 2010. That list continues to include the agenda items which the Council has taken up, including Kashmir, which, by a decision of the Council, remains on the list for this year.*




THANKS S_O_C_O_M

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## raw@war

I support Kashmir, each and every Indian support Kashmir.


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## Gandhi G in da house

About khamenei , It would be interesting to see what the iranian regime says about this issue as only that can be taken seriously.

if the iranian regime supports this statement , it would be good because even we became tired walking this tight rope balancing our relations with USA and Iran by repeatedly reminding the Us about our ancient ties to Iran .

If Iran takes a stand we would know more clearly who we need to stand with in the future .Good for us. this whole balancing act was getting tiring now.

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## Abii

khamenei should shut the fudge up
this is what the Iranian leaders are good at, interfering with other people's affairs. 

India vs pakistan
Israel vs Palestine

etc...
I'm gonna be brutally honest with everybody here so no offense but I don't think more than 5 percent of Iran (and I'm being *very *generous here) gives a crap about India vs Kashmir vs Pakistan.

@ the indian dude who says India is Iran's only friend. 
Iran's only friend is Iran. 

btw, you have some nerve saying **** like that when you're literally polishing uncle sam's marbles

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## Ganguly

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Aint tht a good thing? killing of innocents is forbidden in islam.



Does Gen Kayani will ever listen to this fatwa? I doubt..National Interest comes first, always, for any nation,


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## Abii

nick_indian said:


> About khamenei , It would be interesting to see what the iranian regime says about this issue as only that can be taken seriously.
> 
> if the iranian regime supports this statement , it would be good because even we became tired walking this tight rope balancing our relations with USA and Iran by repeatedly reminding the Us about our ancient ties to Iran .
> 
> *If Iran takes a stand we would know more clearly who we need to stand with in the future .Good for us. this whole balancing act was getting tiring now.*




I don't know why you are confused!
It's very simple with India. 
You guys don't have a backbone. The first army that rolls into town gets your respect. The US has you by the balls, just like how the Brits had you by the balls for centuries.

You're talking as if you have any choice on anything lol
The US says vote for this and you will vote for it. 

Whether Iran defends India or talks **** against it, it doesn't make any difference. Because at the end of the day, India is just another country that is part of the Yankee empire.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

@Abbi..... dude khamenei just said wat rest of the fudgin world is sayin.

Irans best friend is iran not doubt.... but in the current scenerio we are seeing a relation developing between us...... Would hope to see the same level of brotherhood,friendship and trust we had during the reigh of King Reza Shah.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Ganguly said:


> Does Gen Kayani will ever listen to this fatwa? I doubt..National Interest comes first, always, for any nation,



Tht was just political statement showing the world tht iran had and has no nuclear ambitions.

Reguarding Khomeneis statement ur welcome to do watever u can.
But khomeneis statement made the world realize abt kashmir once more..... so thts not bad either rather good for kashmir cause.

Remember u cant supress a nation for much longer now.


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## KS

Abii said:


> [/B]
> 
> I don't know why you are confused!
> It's very simple with India.
> *You guys don't have a backbone. *The first army that rolls into town gets your respect. The US has you by the balls, just like how the Brits had you by the balls for centuries.
> 
> You're talking as if you have any choice on anything lol
> The US says vote for this and you will vote for it.
> 
> Whether Iran defends India or talks **** against it, it doesn't make any difference. Because at the end of the day, India is just another country that is part of the Yankee empire.



I guess you are not up-to-date with current affairs.

Do you know that India has even refused to sign a petty communication inter-operability agreement (that even Israel/UK have to sign) for buying C-130s or P-8I thinking it will affect the sovereignity/independence of our country.

Such is the value we attach to our independence. If we had voted against Iran in the UNSC then it means it was in India's interest alone and not due to some ball-squeezing by the Yankees.

No offense,but our balls are too large for them to hold.

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## Abii

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> @Abbi..... dude khamenei just said wat rest of the fudgin world is sayin.
> 
> Irans best friend is iran not doubt.... but in the current scenerio we are seeing a relation developing between us...... Would hope to see the same level of brotherhood,friendship and trust we had during the reigh of King Reza Shah.



I've grown up in an era where everybody from the Arab world to the Western world wants me dead for being Iranian. I really don't care about friendships and brotherhoods because they are meaningless/temporary/fake. There is no such a thing as friendship, everything is about business and for that we don't need to get cozy with anyone.

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## Abii

Karthic Sri said:


> I guess you are not up-to-date with current affairs.
> 
> Do you know that India has even refused to sign a petty communication inter-operability agreement (that even Israel/UK have to sign) for buying C-130s or P-8I thinking it will affect the sovereignity/independence of our country.
> 
> Such is the value we attach to our independence. If we had voted against Iran in the UNSC then it means it was in India's interest alone and not due to some ball-squeezing by the Yankees.
> 
> No offense,but our balls are too large for them to hold.


every tribe in Asia has at one time or another attacked India, ransacked it and ran away with riches. Then there were the Brits.

Your resume doesn't match your words. 

China, Cuba, North Korea, Iran, USA etc... are countries with backbones. These countries don't always do what it's best for them, they do it because they have honor and dignity.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Abii said:


> I've grown up in an era where everybody from the Arab world to the Western world wants me dead for being Iranian. I really don't care about friendships and brotherhoods because they are meaningless/temporary/fake. There is no such a thing as friendship, everything is about business and for that we don't need to get cozy with anyone.



First we arent arabs.
2nd)We never supported saddam the nut.... funny thing is tht the iraqis were sending arms to wage insurgencies in Pakistan .... arms caches were recovered frm iraqi embassy in islamabad.
3rd)I hope thts not wat most iranians want.
4th)Its Hard to find friends.... but one should atleast try... Life without friends suck.

Look at us... we r lucky to have friends like Turkiye and china... few but ones we can trust with almost everything.

Good luck brother(If u dont mind me calling u a brother...... i do have a lil link with iran coz im frm balouchistan).

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## Gandhi G in da house

Abii said:


> [/B]
> 
> I don't know why you are confused!
> It's very simple with India.
> You guys don't have a backbone. The first army that rolls into town gets your respect. The US has you by the balls, just like how the Brits had you by the balls for centuries.
> 
> You're talking as if you have any choice on anything lol
> The US says vote for this and you will vote for it.
> 
> Whether Iran defends India or talks **** against it, it doesn't make any difference. Because at the end of the day, India is just another country that is part of the Yankee empire.



If india didnt have a backbone , it would not have spoken against sanctions on your country openly.

About Indian being dominated by foreign powers , doesn't sound good coming from citizen of a nation which after islamic foreign invasion couldnt even keep its original ancient religion zoroastranism and was converted en masse to islam whereas india inspite of being ruled by brits and muslims still largely remains hindu because it resisted. persians gave up , Indian hindus didnt . so spare us the BS.

The truth is that the whole world has iran by the balls right now and it cant do crap except for some useless sabre rattling akin to which you have resorted to .

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## KS

Abii said:


> every tribe in Asia has at one time or another attacked India, *ransacked it and ran away with riches*. Then there were the Brits.



You think it is dignified to be pillagers and looters.? BTW wasnt your great country Persia too was raped by Alexander and his horde of Greeks ,then by the Arabs and then by the Turks and Mongols ??

And Yes our country was looted of its riches...But our greatest wealth was our *culture* which no ransacking invader or looter could ever destroy or even scratch.



Abii said:


> Your resume doesn't match your words.
> 
> China, Cuba, North Korea, Iran, USA etc... are countries with backbones. These countries don't always do what it's best for them, they do it because they have honor and dignity.



I dont need to prove that my resume matches my words. It is worth rat poop if you believe it or not.

Lol..Good examples - Cuba,North Korea...Im LMAO...

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## Jackdaws

Abii said:


> every tribe in Asia has at one time or another attacked India, ransacked it and ran away with riches. Then there were the Brits.
> 
> Your resume doesn't match your words.
> 
> China, Cuba, North Korea, Iran, USA etc... are countries with backbones. These countries don't always do what it's best for them, they do it because they have honor and dignity.




Of course they have - we always had more than them. Thieves will be thieves.

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## graphican

Great to see Iran standing on the side we stand. Thanks brothers your open support means a lot to Kashmiris as well.


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## Gandhi G in da house

Abii said:


> khamenei should shut the fudge up
> this is what the Iranian leaders are good at, interfering with other people's affairs.
> 
> India vs pakistan
> Israel vs Palestine
> 
> etc...
> *I'm gonna be brutally honest with everybody here so no offense but I don't think more than 5 percent of Iran (and I'm being very generous here) gives a crap about India vs Kashmir vs Pakistan.*
> 
> @ the indian dude who says India is Iran's only friend.
> Iran's only friend is Iran.
> 
> btw, you have some nerve saying **** like that when you're literally polishing uncle sam's marbles



It is irrelevant what and how many iranians think what about kashmir because in the real world it doesnt matter sh*t .

Iran is irrelevant and unimportant so you might as well stop being generous and take that 5% down to 1 % because it doesnt make any difference whatsoever.

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## justanobserver

Abii said:


> every tribe in Asia has at one time or another attacked India, ransacked it and ran away with riches. Then there were the Brits.





Abii said:


> Your resume doesn't match your words.
> 
> China, Cuba, North Korea, Iran, USA etc... are countries with backbones. These countries don't always do what it's best for them, they do it because they have honor and dignity.




An Iranian (Persian ?) is saying this? Your entire culture was overwritten. What was left of the original Zoroastrians migrated to India (Parsis).

Just because you have a moronic leader who keeps talking crap doesn't mean you have a backbone 

China?!

You don't know about the Mongols and the Manchus?

But yeah thanks for acknowledging that India was always a land of riches 

And what is this misconception that India is a slave of US? We haven't even signed CISMOA !!

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## Areesh

mjnaushad said:


> UN OFFICIAL SOURCE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Highlights of the Noon Briefing
> 
> *KASHMIR REMAINS ON SECURITY COUNCIL AGENDA: Asked about media reports suggesting that Kashmir had been removed from a list of Security Council agenda items, the Spokesperson said that the authors of the media articles may have only looked at the most recent addendum to the Summary statement of matters on which the Security Council is seized, which publishes only the list of matters which have been considered in a formal meeting since 1 Jan. 2007. They missed in that addendum a paragraph explaining that the full list appears in Add.9 of Mar. 2010. That list continues to include the agenda items which the Council has taken up, including Kashmir, which, by a decision of the Council, remains on the list for this year.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THANKS S_O_C_O_M


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## Jackdaws

Abii said:


> [/B]
> 
> I don't know why you are confused!
> It's very simple with India.
> You guys don't have a backbone. The first army that rolls into town gets your respect. The US has you by the balls, just like how the Brits had you by the balls for centuries.
> 
> You're talking as if you have any choice on anything lol
> The US says vote for this and you will vote for it.
> 
> Whether Iran defends India or talks **** against it, it doesn't make any difference. Because at the end of the day, India is just another country that is part of the Yankee empire.




LOL - look who is talking about the first army rolling in. We are not the ones who converted from Zoroastrianism the moment an invader attacked us.

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## KS

Leave it guys..that guy in a moment of internet-bravado and the frustration born out of being an international pariah shot his mouth without knowing their history properly or rather forgetting it. 

*OT:* Duh....whatever !!!

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## Gandhi G in da house

justanobserver said:


> An Iranian (Persian ?) is saying this? *Your entire culture was overwritten. What was left of the original Zoroastrians migrated to India (Parsis).*
> 
> Just because you have a moronic leader who keeps talking crap doesn't mean you have a backbone
> 
> China?!
> 
> You don't know about the Mongols and the Manchus?
> 
> But yeah thanks for acknowledging that India was always a land of riches
> 
> And what is this misconception that India is a slave of US? We haven't even signed CISMOA !!



*EXACTLY* the only country which has kept the parsi religion and culture alive is India because this is where most parsis around the world live now as proud indian citizens contributing to the development of the country .

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## Rafi

Look at all the indian's popping out of the woodwork, Thanks to the Great Ancient Civilization of Iran, your support is welcome and appreciated.


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## Evil Flare

I thought that Iran supports India's stance ... but i was Wrong ... 

Thank you Iran for supporting solidarity with Kashmiri Peoples .

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## Ahmad

this move by A. Khamanae might have someting to do with indian support to american sanction on iran and its nuclear programme? because in the past we didnt see anything like this from them.

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## misterme2

Chinese claims on land issues is greatly exaggerated. If you claim land that was under your control for centuries then how far back do you go? India could claim land from the time of Ashoka? Tibet was independent till Mao came in. Remember this. Aksai Chin was a land grab pure and simple. It was land seized during the war with pakistan and they "cunningly" gave it to you guys. Please tell how can you possibly defend this claim. It is a straight up land grab. It was never yours to begin with. YOu can't bargain with something that was never yours in the first place. As for the territory in the northeast of INdia (A.P.).....there was a war fought with INdia initiated by China remember? YOU can spin it any way you wish, but CHinese soldiers attacked first without any military provocation. Since many Chinese claimed you had the upper hand and killed many soldiers, the land was essentially yours for the taking. No victor that I know of in history would attack for the purpose of gaining territory only to give up their claims fate "winning." Sounds extremely stupid on the Chinese part.


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## rockstarIN

It is, this is the reply you will get from Iran if India supports US, but you can't be nutural anymore.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

cloneman said:


> Another Indian wet dream.



What exactly?


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## Fireurimagination

Abii said:


> [/B]
> 
> I don't know why you are confused!
> It's very simple with India.
> *You guys don't have a backbone. The first army that rolls into town gets your respect. The US has you by the balls, just like how the Brits had you by the balls for centuries.*
> 
> You're talking as if you have any choice on anything lol
> The US says vote for this and you will vote for it.
> 
> Whether Iran defends India or talks **** against it, it doesn't make any difference. Because at the end of the day, India is just another country that is part of the Yankee empire.



LOL what have you been smoking lately? We never signed NPT, CTBT and went nuclear and you people buckled under pressured and signed the same remember

The US will say vote for this and we will say what will we get in return and if the bargain is good I guess we would, compare what has Iran offered and done for India in the last 60 years and what Israel has done in the last 15, it's India first for us 

Iran can talk all it wants nobody cares a darn at least we in India (especially the commies) will know who India's allies are


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Devil Soul said:


> Support Kashmir, says Khamenei
> Published: November 16, 2010
> TEHRAN (Agencies) - Iranian Supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has called for providing assistance to Kashmir engaged in freedom struggle.
> Today the major duties of the elite of the Islamic Ummah is to provide help to the Palestinian nation and the besieged people of Gaza, to sympathise and provide assistance to the nations of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and Kashmir, to engage in struggle and resistance against the aggressions of the United States and the Zionist regime, to safeguard the solidarity of Muslims and stop tainted hands and mercenary voices that try to damage this unity, to spread awakening and the sense of responsibility and commitment among Muslim youth throughout Islamic communities, Khamenei said in his message to the Haj pilgrims.
> Support Kashmir, says Khamenei | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online



Do this makes any diff?? By the way who cares ?

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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Aamir Zia said:


> I thought that Iran supports India's stance ... but i was Wrong ...
> 
> Thank you Iran for supporting solidarity with Kashmiri Peoples .



Best of luck

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## misterme2

Abii said:


> khamenei should shut the fudge up
> this is what the Iranian leaders are good at, interfering with other people's affairs.
> 
> India vs pakistan
> Israel vs Palestine
> 
> etc...
> I'm gonna be brutally honest with everybody here so no offense but I don't think more than 5 percent of Iran (and I'm being *very *generous here) gives a crap about India vs Kashmir vs Pakistan.
> 
> @ the indian dude who says India is Iran's only friend.
> Iran's only friend is Iran.
> 
> btw, you have some nerve saying **** like that when you're literally polishing uncle sam's marbles






You' re right Iran' s best friend is Iran only....and same for India..folks here don't give 2 shits about the rest of the world except the US and China. No offense. About the comment on polishing Sam's marbles...well the Indians tried for decades to talk logic and rationalize the problems with its neighbors especially with Muslim countries but most of these countries just say a few words and don't really give a ****. Terrorist attack after terrorist attack brought barely any sympathy or some a two bit apology on a pee of paper or on the news. The truth of the matter is even with proof, most muslim countries will side with each other openly or hidden. It was only a matter of time before the truth came out. I am not saying this reflects Iranian ppl thinking but the gov't over there pretty much ruins any aspirations you guys have in a global world.

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## S_O_C_O_M

*Anti-India demonstrations erupt in restive Kashmir on biggest Muslim festival, Eid al-Adha​*





Two physically disabled under privileged men greet each other Kashmiri Muslims shop ahead of the Eid al-Adha festival, in Srinagar, India, Sunday, Nov.14, 2010. Muslims will celebrate Eid al-Adha on Nov.17 by slaughtering animals to commemorate God's gift of a ram to substitute for Abraham's impending sacrifice of his son and is considered the most important holiday in the Islamic calendar.(AP Photo/Mukhtar Khan)

By Aijaz Hussain (CP) &#8211; 41 minutes ago

SRINAGAR, India &#8212; Security forces fired warning shots and tear gas to quell protests in restive Indian-controlled Kashmir on Wednesday, after prayers marking a Muslim festival led to street demonstrations against Indian rule.

Clashes erupted after police and paramilitary soldiers stopped hundreds of protesters chanting *"Go India, go back"* and *"We want freedom." *The demonstrators marched after Eid al-Adha prayers in Srinagar, the disputed region's main city, said a police officer on condition of anonymity as he was not authorized to speak to the media.

Protesters hurled stones and bricks at security forces in downtown Srinagar, the officer said. No casualties were immediately reported.

Anti-India sentiment runs deep in Kashmir, a Muslim majority region where more than a dozen rebel groups have fought for independence or its merger with neighbouring Pakistan since 1989. More than 68,000 people, mostly civilians, have been killed.

Since June, Kashmir has been rocked by violent anti-India protests and crackdowns by government forces that have killed at least 111 people &#8212; mostly teenage boys and young men in their 20s.

Muslims the world over are celebrating Eid al-Adha, or the feast of the sacrifice. The three-day holiday involves slaughter of sheep and cattle in remembrance of Abraham's near-sacrifice of his son.

In another protest in the southern town of Anantnag, hundreds of demonstrators clashed with security forces and torched a police vehicle after being stopped from holding a pro-independence rally, said another police officer also speaking on condition of anonymity.

Clashes between protesters and troops were also reported from several other towns, but there were no reports of casualties.

India and Pakistan have fought two wars for control over the Himalayan region since they won independence from Britain in 1947.

The Canadian Press: Anti-India demonstrations erupt in restive Kashmir on biggest Muslim festival, Eid al-Adha

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## Vajra_Yuddh

Ahmad said:


> this move by A. Khamanae might have someting to do with indian support to american sanction on iran and its nuclear programme? because in the past we didnt see anything like this from them.


Exactly mu words. By issuing such rhetoric he's simply evening the score. This is what we did; we backed the rejection of nuke weapons for Iran but later came up with large multi-million dollar deals to cool Iranians down.

I guess we'd be seeing a trade commission meeting up in Tehran or Delhi for cooling this situation down. 

Actually, I don't mind him saying that since we've also done something similar. If he's able to score brownie points at home by statements and doesn't cause serious trouble in our internal matter, we don't mind. We can always balance such "outward rhetoric" with trade and economic ties. 

To those who think India voted "totally against Iran" please let me correct this: 

*Our policy is clear; we don't encourage another nuclear weapons state in the region but Iran has all the right for civilian nuclear energy. 

We voted against Iran having nuke power for weaponization. Not for civilian purposes.*

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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Best of luck

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## misterme2

Abii said:


> I've grown up in an era where everybody from the Arab world to the Western world wants me dead for being Iranian. I really don't care about friendships and brotherhoods because they are meaningless/temporary/fake. There is no such a thing as friendship, everything is about business and for that we don't need to get cozy with anyone.



Agreed remember this though ....when the Arabs of Arabia marched into Iran and subdued you guys for centuries and converted your ppl. Those who were able to fled to India..where they were granted the freedom to vie and practice their religion by Hindu kings. They are called Parsi and practice Zoroastrian. When the Brits came to India, the damage had already been done. India defeated Muslim conquests for about 100 yrs before the Arabs finally came thru Scindh. No other nation in history faced a continuous onslaught for so long, not even the Europeans. By the time they succeeded and later on ruled parts of India, the damage had been done. Your leader is wise in the sense he see's an opportunity to bring peace between Shia and Sunni but I doubt any will heed his call.

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## Tin Man

Giving AWAY Kashmir?


For so many years we have concerned ourselves primarily with how Pakistan seeks to take away Jammu and Kashmir. We are perhaps getting too late to intensely involve ourselves with how a section of Indian State and the political class have been, over the years, crafting the giving away of Jammu and Kashmir. The unilateral submission of the report of the Working Group on Centre-State Relations by its Chairman Justice Sagir Ahmad to the Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir is only a reflection on the relentless campaign to keep the &#8216;Muslim Question&#8217; in India alive and transform the vision of secularism into an albatross around the neck of Indian nation, fixing its limbs into inaction, so that the Muslim Power continues to inch eastwards through successive partitions of India.

A Sinister Course Correction
The report submitted by Justice Sagir in the name of Working Group on Centre-State Relations was done without completing the agenda of the Working Group; without taking most of the members of the Working Group into confidence; without seeking the opinion of the members on the draft of the report; and last but not the least without formally winding up the proceedings of the Working Group. It seems that the entire exercise is aimed at some sort of a course correction crafted by those who have prefixed the direction and the outcome of the internal dialogue on Jammu and Kashmir. There are pertinent reasons to think so.

... a section of Indian State and the political class have been, over the years, crafting the giving away of Jammu and Kashmir.
The delay in submission of the report by Justice Sagir was certainly causing worry which found expression once in a while in the public sphere. On March 10, 2008 a prominent local daily reported National Conference patron Farooq Abdullah blaming New Delhi as not being serious towards the resolution of the Kashmir dispute and quoted him making direct and almost indicatory references about the Working Group on Centre-State Relations, &#8220;appointment of a Muslim Judge to give report on the contentious issue of centre-state relations reflects their whimsical approach&#8230; The report could have catastrophic consequences for Justice Sagir.&#8221; As per the report of Kashmir Times, Dr Farooq maintained that reluctance of Justice Sagir in convening another round of meeting of the working group reflects his understanding of &#8220;how the contents of the report could impact his career prospects.&#8221; KT further quotes Dr Farooq as having said, &#8220;&#8230;in a country where the minorities are under suspicion all the time, expecting Justice Sagir to give a report which could maintain his image of being a nationalist would be a little irrational.&#8221; In his expressions Dr Farooq referred to the population dynamics in the country, &#8220;If the centre would have been serious, Justice Sachar would have been the best choice.&#8221; He openly confessed about his resentment on the appointment of Justice Sagir at the time when the heads of the working groups were being chosen and frankly said, &#8220;I resisted his name, since I knew the repercussions of (his) heading this crucial working group on centre-state relationships&#8230;&#8221;

The statement clearly brings out that persons of the stature of Dr Farooq Abdullah had a clear cut expectation from the Working Group on Centre-State Relations and an apprehension whether the person of Justice Sagir be able to deliver the same. Dr Farooq had the full realization that the content of this expectation had a &#8216;catastrophic&#8217; bearing on the secular fabric in rest of the country and hence he nurtured a lack of confidence about the wisdom of having a &#8216;Muslim Judge&#8217; from outside the State as the head of the Working Group reflecting upon the relationship of Jammu and Kashmir with the Union of India.

It is relevant to quote what Prof Amitabh Mattoo was saying months before Justice Sagir submitted his report given the fact that he has been one of the more visible backchannel actors in the engagement between Pakistan, India, separatists and the so called moderates in Kashmir. He wrote in early October, &#8220;An important working group of the Prime Minister on J&K dealt with centre-state relations but it was unable to arrive at a breakthrough. This doesn&#8217;t mean that we have a cul-de-sac. There are many proposals on the table including those on autonomy, self rule, self governance and achievable nationhood&#8230; These internal discussions must flow into the backchannel which can then attempt to work out a non-territorial India-Pakistan settlement on J&K based on providing a similar political architecture on both sides of the Line of Control working towards converting the LoC into Line of Peace, that allows free movement of people, goods, services and ideas.&#8221;

The way Justice Sagir submitted his report has some resonance in the way National Conference submitted the Greater and Regional Autonomy reports. Like the constitution of Working Group on Centre and State Relations the Farooq government constituted the Committees on Greater Autonomy and Regional Autonomy after coming to power in 1996 giving an impression of adopting a non-partisan and inclusive process. He made Dr Karan Singh the Chairman of the Greater Autonomy Committee and made another non Muslim Balraj Puri to function as Working Chairman of the Regional Autonomy Committee. Sooner than later Dr Karan Singh resigned and Balraj Puri was forced out. The reports of the State Autonomy Committee was suddenly finalized, submitted to the government and then pushed into the State assembly for adoption.

Farooq Kathwari, arrived in India with the full knowledge of Government of India in March 1999 &#8216;carrying a series of proposals for the creation of an independent Kashmiri State&#8217;. At that time both USA and Government of India underplayed his Jihadi connections.
The Regional Autonomy report of National Conference envisaged the division of the State along the same lines as Musharraf did later on. It put the division of Jammu province into Muslim and Hindu majority domains firmly on the agenda for the settlement of the Kashmir issue. Balraj Puri later wrote about the proposed breaking of the existing regions in the State: &#8220;Though re-demarcation or creation of a region or a district was not included in the terms of reference of the committee, I still sought a clarification from the chief minister who categorically ruled out consideration of any such demand&#8230; I sent my report to all members and the chief minister in all humility for favour of their kind consideration, scrutiny and comments. Despite a reminder, I did not receive any comment&#8230; I received a letter from the Chief Secretary on 21 January 1999 that my term had expired on 31 December 1998. Through another order dated 4 March 1999, the term of the Committee minus me was extended in a similar retrospective way w.e.f 31 December 1998 till 31 March&#8230; It seems an alternate 28 page report was hastily got drafted and signed by three out of six original members which was tabled in the legislative assembly when it was about to adjourn sine die on 16 April.&#8221; What made the then Chief Minister Dr Farooq to suddenly abandon the pretensions of accommodation and legitimate consultation taking everybody on board, and like Justice Sagir did recently, push through the reports having a bearing on the future of the state?

Pre-Fixed Destination
The entire peace engagement internal as well as external has a pre-fixed objective for a well entrenched lobby and every process employed by GoI is being judged on the yardstick of this objective. When PDP released its Self Rule document, not in front of the Working Group on Centre-State Relations, but in Pakistan, National Conference president Omar Abdullah openly blamed the Indian High Commission in Pakistan of having facilitated the entire process. The Foreign Ministry chose not to contradict the allegation. There are many analysts who privately believe that the Self Rule document is the creation of some section of PMO. In the recent past, we have many instances which we come across, where GoI acted almost in tandem with the Muslim leadership of Kashmir Valley, mainstream and the separatist.

During the Vajpayee regime a USA based Kashmiri secessionist leader, lobbyist and fund raiser, Farooq Kathwari, arrived in India with the full knowledge of Government of India in March 1999 &#8216;carrying a series of proposals for the creation of an independent Kashmiri State&#8217;. At that time both USA and Government of India underplayed his Jihadi connections. His son had died in Chechnya while fighting Russians. He met very important persons belonging to Indian intelligence service and the ruling BJP. On March 8, Kathwari had a closed door meeting with Dr Farooq Abdullah and his top cabinet colleagues on the premises of the Secretariat in Jammu. This meeting induced the urgency into the Farooq Government to come out with its reports on greater and regional autonomy in the State. During his visit Kathwari seemed &#8216;encouraged enough to push ahead with a new version of his blueprint for the solution of Kashmir&#8217;.

By accepting independence or quasi independence options as possible concepts for clinching a deal with Pakistan, India has virtually checkmated itself.
The blueprint &#8211; Kashmir: A Way Forward &#8211; later became commonly known as Kathwari Proposals. The National Conference reports had &#8217;striking similarities&#8217; with Kathwari proposals as the later had with Dixon&#8217;s proposals. Noted columnist Parveen Swami while commenting about this convergence wrote, &#8220;As significant, Abdullah&#8217;s maximalist demands for autonomy dovetail with the KSG&#8217;s (Kashmir Study Group) formulations of a quasi Sovereign State.&#8221;

It was not a coincidence that almost simultaneously the Indian and Pakistani Foreign Ministers met in the Sri Lankan capital Colombo in March 1999 and reached an agreement envisaging &#8216;plebiscite in Jammu and Kashmir on regional/district basis&#8217;, &#8216;maximum possible autonomy to Kashmir and its adjoining areas&#8217;, division of Jammu province along the Chenab River and so on. Significantly, the BJP lead NDA was in power at that time.

The Regional autonomy report of National Conference advocated dividing the State into its Muslim and non-Muslim domains exactly the same way Kathwari envisaged. Pushing Balraj Puri, the Working Chairman of the Regional Autonomy Committee, out of the decision making loop was a course correction applied to see the endorsement of the Greater Muslim Kashmir to which he probably would not have agreed.

It is highly improbable to conceive that Dr Farooq Abdullah, who was also the Chief Minister, was not adequately briefed by Government of India about the purpose and purport of Kathwari&#8217;s visit to India. Even if he was not, it is more improbable to think that Americans didn&#8217;t educate him. Kathwari&#8217;s closeness to US State Department and his presence in India with his &#8216;Way Forward&#8217; proposals on Jammu and Kashmir was more than a hint for National Conference to move fast enough to finalize the reports of his government on greater and regional autonomy and push it through the state assembly where National Conference had a two-third majority.

When none other than Omar Abdullah said in the very first RTC that, &#8220;we have signed only instrument of accession and not instrument of merger,&#8221; it begged for a proper and strong response from the highest levels in the central government
To be fair to Justice Sagir, he refused to take into consideration definite signals from the interested quarters in the Government of India to fall in line and took his time. He in fact took undue time, in the view of those, who are in a haste to strike a deal with the separatists and Pakistan. In the very first meeting of the Working Group, to the clarification of a query posed by this author as to whether decisions will be taken in the Working Group by a majority vote or total consensus, Justice Sagir had assured that report of the Working Group will be finalized only if there was a total consensus. During the deliberations of the Working Group, this author, while making his expositions on the Greater Autonomy report of National Conference attracted the intense attention of the Chairman while making the following comment, &#8220;Sir, while coming to participate in this Working Group, I was acutely conscious of the fact that I have the responsibility of the very survival of my community on my shoulders, during the deliberations which have taken place here, I have come to realize that I have the responsibility of the minorities of the State on my shoulders. After listening to the expositions of NC, PDP and even Congress, I feel I have the responsibility of the minorities of the entire country on my shoulders. Sir, I am sure that you will agree with me that you also have the responsibility of the minorities of this nation on your shoulders while conducting this Working Group.&#8221;

Justice Sagir could not have submitted the report, which he eventually did, if he would have followed the due process of first completing the remaining agenda of the Working Group, then submitting the draft report for acceptance by the members, seeking a total consensus on it as he had promised and then duly winding up the proceedings of the Working Group. When he changed midway the agenda for the fourth meeting of the Working Group and incorporated the presentation of Wajahat Habibullah, he left no one in doubt about his helplessness by offering no answers when the members asked him the reasons for doing so. He looked with embarrassment towards his secretary in the Group, Sh Ajit Kumar, perhaps telling us that someone else had taken this decision. Justice Sagir could not have submitted the report if he would have listened to his conscience, which he did for sometime. He eventually neither disappointed Dr Farooq Abdullah nor that section in Government of India for whom the unfinished work of the Working Group was becoming a major hurdle. Submission of a report which at least will not come in the way of the prefixed objectives of the so called search for peace with Pakistan had perhaps become an imperative necessity.

Paradigm Shift
When Kathwari was invited to India along with his proposals &#8216;Kashmir: A Way Forward&#8217;, it marked a major change in the strategic perspectives of Indian state. Kathwari plan was a rechristened Dixon Formula. It envisaged a quasi independent or eventually independent Greater Muslim Kashmir. To Dixon, doing this was completing the &#8216;unfinished agenda&#8217; of partition of India.

Was the participation of pro India leadership in Jammu and Kashmir in the Round Table Conference along with the separatist leadership sought to give an impression of involving everyone so that the compromise already worked out could be presented as a fate accompli to the wider national opinion?
Nehru from the inception was opposed to an Independent Kashmir. He had outrightly communicated to Muslim leaders of Kashmir that, &#8220;he would prefer to hand over the State to Pakistan on a platter rather than support its independence and allow it to be turned into a centre of international intrigue and danger to both India and Pakistan.&#8221; It is not to say that Nehru and his successors till Vajpayee considered independence or quasi independence for Jammu and Kashmir as a political blasphemy. There is a lot of evidence available to suggest that Nehru and his successors in Congress flirted with these options but predominantly from a tactical perspective. For strategic planners in India counterpoising Independence or Autonomy of Jammu and Kashmir to counter pro-Pakistan sentiment in the State has always been a very attractive option. They always believed that keeping these options alive, and also nourishing them would provide India leverage to wrong-foot Pakistan. Bereft of the profound understanding of the issues involved and oblivious of the implications they flaunted this maneuver more often than less as a strategic necessity&#8230; By accepting independence or quasi independence options as possible concepts for clinching a deal with Pakistan, India has virtually checkmated itself. Pakistan is now publicly claim that they are actually agreeing to India&#8217;s position and so there should be no delay in a final settlement.

The formulation that Two Nation theory can be countered only by a Three Nation theory is turning out to be a fatal self goal. Both theories are ideologically one and the same. Cutting the Two Nation politics into regional or ethnic denominators does not resolve its basic incompatibility with a state based on recognition of plural diversity on the principle of equality. Breaking away of Bangladesh from Pakistan only solved the problem of power sharing within the frame work of the bigger Pakistan. It did not resolve the conflict with an inclusive secular nation because it defined its separation from India on the same principle of two nation theory.

The symbiotic relation which Pakistan evolved between Pro-Pak and pro-independence/autonomy politics in Jammu and Kashmir could not be properly comprehended within the framework of the strategic perspective of India. This perspective visualized harnessing of Muslim identity politics and constitutionally fortifying Muslim sub-nationalism in the State as not only an antidote to Pakistan in Jammu and Kashmir but also an effective device to mobilize Muslim vote bank in rest of India. It considered Muslim communalism in India as merely a reaction to the tyranny of Hindu majority. The entire approach over the years has become not only a device to circumvent the issue of Muslim communalism in India but to protect and nourish it.

Despite all this, till Kathwari&#8217;s visit, Indian State had not totally closed its eyes to the incompatibility of an autonomous sphere of Muslim interests in Jammu and Kashmir with the secular nation building. That explains why over the years the process of erosion of Article 370 remained alive. Extension of jurisdiction of Supreme Court of India, CAG, fundamental rights and many other central laws was an expression to dissolve this incompatibility. A dominant section of Indian State and the political establishment never agreed to elevate Article 370 from a transitory provision to a permanent feature of Indian Constitution. The strategic paradigm of fortifying Muslim identity politics in Jammu and Kashmir and rest of India to negate the appeal of two nation theory has lead to the creation of broadly two sections within Indian State and the political establishment.

One such section always had a subversive motivation and visualized recognition to Muslim sub-nationalism in Jammu and Kashmir as a space to build a Greater Muslim Kashmir and use this to impair the indivisible unity of Indian Republic from within. This section always wanted Muslim identity politics in Jammu and Kashmir to be alive and kicking to use it as a cardinal insult to balkanize India along its sub- national diversity.

Many times Government of India seemed to facilitate the separatist agenda by maintaining stoic silence even when the Muslim leadership of the valley put forward misplaced constitutional arguments ...
The second segment constitutes of those who gave more credence to the tactical value of harnessing Muslim sub-nationalism but only to weaken the appeal of Pakistan in the State of Jammu and Kashmir. While keeping the affront to Muslim identity politics to the minimum this section however did try to neutralize the disruptive potential of special status of Jammu and Kashmir to the unity of India. This group nourished a misplaced wish that eventually Indian democracy will prove to be a stronger force and Muslim identity politics in the state will loose its relevance. This group has premised their approach on the line that Muslim communalism has not to be contested; it has to be given minimum affront and the best choice is to circumvent it.

Over the years there has been a ping pong battle between these two mindsets, one seeking to delegitimise the religious identity politics, the other doing everything to consolidate Greater Muslim Kashmir. When Muslim majority Doda was carved out of the Hindu majority Jammu province in 1948, followed by carving out of Shia Muslim majority Kargil out of Buddhist majority Ladakh, we were witnessing the counter responses to the process of fuller integration of Jammu and Kashmir unleashed not from Pakistan but from within. Nehruvian strategic paradigm kept this internal conflict in the nation building process alive.

The promotion of Kathwari plan by the Vajpayee government marked the demise of this strategic perspective. The new paradigm recognizes the three nation proposals of independence or semi-independence of Kashmir as a solution to Indo-Pak conflict rather than a tactical antidote to the two nation vision. Recognizing Pakistan as a partner in settling the future of the only Muslim majority state of India has not only made the settlement on Jammu and Kashmir as the unfinished agenda of partition but opened afresh the Muslim question in India. The support extended by eminent Muslims like AG Noorani or Shabana Azmi or Wajahat Habibullah to the separatist cause in Kashmir have the sinister forebodings of the new confidence of a section of Indian Muslim elite to question the very unity of the nation. Vajpayee&#8217;s strategic vision underlined that the frontline Muslim state of Pakistan can live in harmony with a secular and Hindu majority India. This shift in India&#8217;s strategic perspective is of the nature of a mutation. From visualizing the creation of an Independent Greater Muslim Kashmir as more dangerous than its secession to Pakistan and a potential hot bed of international intrigue, the new perspective seems to view the creation of the same as a bridge of peace between Pakistan &#8211; a confessional ideological State &#8211; and India a secular state.

Giving Away Kashmir
Manmohan Singh&#8217;s tenure has carried the strategic shift further away from the Nehru-Gandhi era. Peace with Pakistan at any price seems to be getting internalized in a way that it has become more than a strategic necessity &#8211; an ideological imperative. The subversive entrenchment within, emboldened by its increasing reach and sway, is gradually succeeding in harnessing the might and wherewithal of &#8216;a State&#8217; in its bid to mount concerted attack on the Nation.

The three Round Table Conferences (RTCs) and the meetings of the various Working Groups, and the conclusions there of, are manifest examples of how Indian State is made to invest in creating a Greater Muslim Kashmir.

The Working Group on Confidence Building Measures recommended abrogation of Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA), relief not only to the victims of terrorism but the families of the killed terrorists ...
A section of pro-India participants, invited to the First Round Table Conference, did debate the wisdom of participating in it. They had legitimate apprehensions that the conduct of such a conference was in fact an exercise to accord democratic legitimacy to certain concessions that Government of India was ready to make to Pakistan and the separatists in the Valley. The Prime Minister Manmohan Singh had already had series of very high profile meetings with a section of Separatist leadership. These meetings, lasting for hours, along with the top most officers of Government of India had catapulted the separatist leadership into the national and international limelight once again at a time when their credibility on the ground was at the lowest.

The Chenab Solution, which had prominently come to the public realm after Vajpayee invited Kathwari and sent his special emissary Sh RK Mishra to start a dialogue process with Pakistan, had attained the stature of a possible solution considered more by the Government of India than by Pakistan. Was the participation of pro India leadership in Jammu and Kashmir in the Round Table Conference along with the separatist leadership sought to give an impression of involving everyone so that the compromise already worked out could be presented as a fate accompli to the wider national opinion? Retrospectively this apprehension seems to have been well founded. At that time however the opinion that Round Table Conference accorded legitimacy to the diversity of political opinion in the State and presented an opportunity to show the separatists their position in over all political environment of the state clinched the argument against dissociating from the RTC.

Through the three RTC&#8217;s and the Working Groups, GoI pushed through all such proposals, which have critically strengthened the processes for the creation of Greater Muslim Kashmir. A process of reconciliation with separatism on their terms has by now been firmly grounded through a series of administrative, quasi legal and political maneuvers. These measures are such that they do not need a legislative sanction of the Parliament and as such are not dependent upon the political consensus.

The deliberations in RTC&#8217;s and Working Groups amply reflect a deliberation in implementing an agenda which had already been unleashed. The very architecture of the RTC&#8217;s was developed in a way were Government of India was placed as a neutral arbitrator between pro-India opinion and those who wanted the change the status-quo of the relation between Jammu and Kashmir and the Union of India. Many times Government of India seemed to facilitate the separatist agenda by maintaining stoic silence even when the Muslim leadership of the valley put forward misplaced constitutional arguments or historically unfounded and false propositions undermining the very accession of the state with India and attacking its sovereignty. When none other than Omar Abdullah said in the very first RTC that, &#8220;we have signed only instrument of accession and not instrument of merger,&#8221; it begged for a proper and strong response from the highest levels in the central government, because the statement has profound implications. In the same meeting the leader of PDP and then Cabinet Minister in the state government, Sh Muzaffar Beigh said, &#8220;Article 370 had a treaty status&#8221;. He opined that this treaty had developed after an understanding between Constituent Assembly of Jammu and Kashmir and Constituent Assembly of India both of which as per him were sovereign bodies. This blatant falsehood and sinister twist was never contested by Government of India.

... why are propaganda campaigns like the suspension of aid to Jammu and Kashmir by the World Bank, because it has suddenly woken up to recognize Jammu and Kashmir as a dispute, left uncontested?
A section of Indian State and political establishment seem to be allowing blatant falsehoods aimed at wrecking the sovereignty of the nation in Jammu and Kashmir in such a way, so that public at large not only in Jammu and Kashmir but in rest of India, as well as internationally, is convinced that India has no case in Jammu and Kashmir. The deliberations in the Working Groups were also conducted in a manner to undermine all legitimate imperatives of national interests. Government of India is mirroring the attitudes which the British Government adopted in the build-up to the partition of India.

The Working Group on Confidence Building Measures never discussed anti-terrorism measures as an important confidence building measure for the return of normalcy in the state. It did not at all debate the relevance of anti-terrorism laws in the State in the light of the ongoing terrorist campaign. It did not even cursorily address the human rights violation in the State due to terrorism. The Working Group focused primarily on the State specific aspects of human rights violations just as Amnesty International and Asia Watch used to do in 90&#8217;s.

The mindset employed can be understood by the written admission of the Working Group on Confidence Building Measures while dealing with the question of internally displaced Kashmiri Hindus, &#8220;the Working Group concerns itself with the rehabilitation and improvement of conditions of the militancy victims and did not go deeper into the causes or the genesis of the militancy in the state.&#8221; The Working Groups followed a clear cut direction to ignore all issues which would bring into focus the issues of ideologically motivated violence in the state and bring the ugly side of armed Muslim separatism in the state to light. Their recommendations were meticulously in line with the separatist demands.

The Working Group on Confidence Building Measures recommended abrogation of Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA), relief not only to the victims of terrorism but the families of the killed terrorists, create conditions for the return of persons to Jammu and Kashmir, who had gone to Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and Pakistan for training and organizing support for armed separatism etc. etc. Only lip service was rendered to all other issues including the problems faced by refugees, who had come from West Pakistan, while as *** refugees of 1947 were not even mentioned in the report. The political motivation at work from behind can also be clearly understood by reading some recommendations of the same Working Group. The recommendations state, &#8220;To start unconditional dialogue process with militant groups for finding sustainable solutions to the problems of militancy&#8230; To examine the role of media in generating an image of the people of the state as to lessen the indignity and suspicion that the people face outside the state&#8221;. Working Group on Strengthening Relations across LoC never even considered the issue of illegal economy in the state and impact on it by cross LoC trade. It never discussed the issue of Middle East based business mafia seeking to suck up Jammu and Kashmir into its lap even when the leaders of the business committee in Kashmir have been openly canvassing with their fraternity that cross LoC trade would integrate Kashmir Valley with the economy of not Pakistan but Middle East.

A section from within the government and the political establishment wants to present a compromise in Jammu and Kashmir as a deliverance to the nation from a perpetual confrontation, even if it means abandoning its frontiers, its people in the State,
The Working Group recommendations strengthened the processes already unleashed to bring about economic and political integration of the Muslim majority areas of Jammu with the overwhelmingly Muslim Kashmir valley. Construction of Mughal Road connecting Poonch-Rajouri with Kashmir through Shopian-Pulwama, and Sinthan top road connecting mountainous Kishtwar district with Anantnag, were given further impetus. The handing over of the national power projects to J&K government assumed new stridency during the RTCs and Working Group meetings and the subsequent recommendations have already created an agenda for developing the infrastructure economic, legal and political for the Greater Muslim Kashmir.

During the deliberations of the third RTC the Muslim representatives from Kargil vehemently opposed the concept of demilitarization and brought to light the humane role played by Indian security establishment for the people living in Kargil, Drass and other remote areas. The entire exposition eventually was ignored and never allowed to be known in the rest of the country primarily because GoI had already embarked upon the process of demilitarization. In the same RTC the then MLA from Bandipore addressed the PM and said, &#8220;Sir, why was the All Party Hurriyat Conference Chief Syed Ali Shah Gilani released from jail before this conference. What was the assessment of Government of India? If he was released why was he allowed to address a public rally at the airport itself? What was the assessment of GoI about this? Do you know Sir that Lashkar-e-Toiba flags were flaunted in this rally? Do you know sir what were the slogans raised in the rally? Sir, they raised the slogans-Lashkar Aayi, Lashkar Aayi, Manmohan ki Maut Aayi, Azad ki maut Aayi.&#8221; The release of the radical pro-Pakistan Hurriyat leader retrospectively seems to have a purpose. Gilani was perhaps released to raise the din of radical demands outside so that the proposals of Self Rule, Greater Autonomy raised by Peoples Democratic Party and National Conference within RTC appear to be moderate options and could be endorsed.

The attitude of Government of India to Jamaat, Ali Shah Gilani and Dukhtaran-e-Millat (DeM) appears to have a purpose when we see that it is GoI which is investing in pushing through the Kathwari/Dixon plan as a solution. While all other separatist leaders have lost their credibility and potential to mobilize public, it is only Syed Ali Shah Gilani, DeM and Jamaat-e-Islami which can keep the pot boiling in the public and providing the required pressure and momentum to the Government of India for giving concessions. It is well known that whenever Government acted firmly on the ground, the Intifada never took off. And it assumed the proportions of an uprising when Government of India publicly declared retraction of its authority from the ground. Omar Abdullah asked the Prime Minister in one of the RTCs as to why Government of India has always been befriending and encouraging such elements in the State who have a manifest anti India stand on Kashmir.

Giving away of Kashmir is basically a process of recasting the concepts of sovereignty of Indian Nation, its frontiers and its secular vision. The Self Rule Document of PDP, which many believe has been prepared by Government of India, openly talks about redefining the concepts of nation, sovereignty, ethnicity, regions etc etc. When GoI India talks about porous borders, rendering borders irrelevant, settlement between stake holders it is talking about a fundamental ideological shift in the nation building vision. To qualify them as tactical interventions or strategic imperatives right or wrong will be a gross misjudgment.

To those, who pose serious questions about the gradual process of capitulation in Jammu and Kashmir conducted and calibrated by sections of the State, the argument put forward to silence them in the back channels is the intense international pressure brought about by USA and China on India. It is not incidental that one of the first public expressions of a &#8216;two front&#8217; situation for India has been given by none other than Brijesh Mishra the National Security Advisor to Vajpayee Government and one of the brains which set the peace process with Pakistan rolling. Prodded and patronized by the State a voluntary censorship seems to be in vogue not to discuss the content and quality of this pressure. It is true that even after 9/11 USA has not given any indication that it has changed its policy on Kashmir or Pakistan vis-a-vis India. But it is also true that at a time when it is being parroted from within India that GoI has been forced to enter into a dialogue with Pakistan under US pressure, American government has publicly released the information about terrorists arrested in USA which link the 26/11 terror attacks in Mumbai directly to serving officers in Pakistani Army. The Statement of Robert Gates that India may lose its reserves of restrain in case of one more terrorist attack on Indian soil was less a prodding in favour of a dialogue and concession to separatists and more a warning to Pakistan.

This is not to say that USA is not seeking such cooperation from India which addresses US concern more than Indian concerns. The fact is that USA has a lesser leverage to exert pressures on India than it had before 9/11. Before the terror attacks on twin towers in New York, US government had its relations intact with Pakistan and rest of the radical Muslim countries around the Middle East. It had not entered Iraq and was exploring a relationship with Taliban. Now the situation is different. USA, by the admission of its own experts, is over stretched and needs India more in an atmosphere of global recession than any time in history. Why is Government of India more than willing to accommodate American view now than it has been ever before? Not only that, why are propaganda campaigns like the suspension of aid to Jammu and Kashmir by the World Bank, because it has suddenly woken up to recognize Jammu and Kashmir as a dispute, left uncontested? That too when the representative of World Bank has clarified that they are continuing to finance many projects in India including Jammu and Kashmir.

The bogey of increasing international pressure is being crafted from within to target Indian public opinion at a time when dialogue with separatists is going on and Pakistan is unraveling from within. A section from within the government and the political establishment wants to present a compromise in Jammu and Kashmir as a deliverance to the nation from a perpetual confrontation, even if it means abandoning its frontiers, its people in the State, its civilisational responsibility, central features of its eco heritage, secularism and everything which India stands for. I participated in the first SAFMA conference in New Delhi immediately after a group of Pakistani Journalists had for the first time visited Jammu and Kashmir. During the lunch session of the Conference I overheard a conversation between the visiting Pakistani journalist and an official of the Pakistani Embassy in India. The journalist was telling the official in Urdu that Indians while talking about settlement of Kashmir issue always say that they cannot allow second Partition of India. The Pakistani official retorted back that Gandhi and Nehru also used to say like this before the partition.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/homeland&#37;20security/Giving-Away-Kashmir.html


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Areesh said:


> What guess work? Shias or sunnis or whatever Kashmir never belonged to India and that applies to all factions and sects of society.



May be in your or your countrymen opinion, But for us it belongs to us and thats what matters not ur opinion...say it 1 time or trillion times, does it change the reality that we hold 2/3 rd of kashmir? and will continue to govern it?? *NO*

by the way best of luck if u think that india will give kashmir to pak or anyone else....

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## Ammyy

Now protester need some attention nothing else 

UN pull out J & K out of dispute list, International community not listening to them, so now they become cheap even derailing their own festival ..............Shame on Geellani

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## somebozo

misterme2 said:


> *Agreed remember this though ....when the Arabs of Arabia marched into Iran and subdued you guys for centuries and converted your ppl. Those who were able to fled to India..where they were granted the freedom to vie and practice their religion by Hindu kings.* They are called Parsi and practice Zoroastrian. When the Brits came to India, the damage had already been done. India defeated Muslim conquests for about 100 yrs before the Arabs finally came thru Scindh. No other nation in history faced a continuous onslaught for so long, not even the Europeans. By the time they succeeded and later on ruled parts of India, the damage had been done. Your leader is wise in the sense he see's an opportunity to bring peace between Shia and Sunni but I doubt any will heed his call.



whats the use of digging dead rotten corpses?? India was as well invaded and after 1400 years stands permanently divided into three parts two of them being Muslim. And Iranians are as proud of being Muslims as anyone else. Spread of Islam across India and central Asia is credited to Persians!

Making leader brass was large shia and outside the propaganda hyped western of hardliner media, the Shia and Sunni have considerable unity through the bonds of Islam regardless of sect.

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## Areesh

DRDO said:


> Now protester need some attention nothing else
> 
> *UN pull out J & K out of dispute list*, International community not listening to them, so now they become cheap even derailing their own festival ..............Shame on Geellani



Wake up kid. Subah ho gayi.



> Highlights of the Noon Briefing
> 
> *KASHMIR REMAINS ON SECURITY COUNCIL AGENDA: Asked about media reports suggesting that Kashmir had been removed from a list of Security Council agenda items, the Spokesperson said that the authors of the media articles may have only looked at the most recent addendum to the Summary statement of matters on which the Security Council is seized, which publishes only the list of matters which have been considered in a formal meeting since 1 Jan. 2007. They missed in that addendum a paragraph explaining that the full list appears in Add.9 of Mar. 2010. That list continues to include the agenda items which the Council has taken up, including Kashmir, which, by a decision of the Council, remains on the list for this year.*

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## somebozo

while India can talk all it wants China an actually deliver..how many infrastructure project India can dare to undertake in Tibet?? Or open a Taiwanese consulate?? Or start issuing paper visas to Chinese citizens??


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## CaptainJackSparrow

somebozo said:


> while India can talk all it wants China an actually deliver..how many infrastructure project India can dare to undertake in Tibet?? Or open a Taiwanese consulate?? Or start issuing paper visas to Chinese citizens??



We delivered the biggest infrastructure project in the world in 1971. Did you forget that?

BTW, we are just waiting to be a far more stronger nation than we currently are. Just wait another 10-12 years.


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## Areesh

> India tells China: Kashmir is to us what Tibet, Taiwan are to you



And India is not china so back off kid.


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Areesh said:


> Wake up kid. Subah ho gayi.



Wake the UN officials up kid..! wheather J & K is on the list or not,,it dosen't matter what matters is that are they dared to talk about it???

the answer is *NO* from past several years....So, before waking us wake them up and ask them to hold argument on this matter....

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## Areesh

B_R_I_C said:


> Wake the UN officials up kid..! wheather J & K is on the list or not,,it dosen't matter what matters is that are they dared to talk about it???
> 
> the answer is no from past several years....So, before waking us wake them up and ask them to hold argument on thia matter....



Whatever.


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## somebozo

it seems necessary habbit among Indians to support each other in trolling by thanking.

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## Areesh

somebozo said:


> it seems necessary habbit among Indians to support each other in trolling by thanking.



Most of them are new members most probably dual id's. You never know they might be banned when you wake up tomorrow. Don't take them serious.

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## CaptainJackSparrow

Areesh said:


> Whatever.



What 'Whatever'?  Answer his question if you can!
*
Why does UN not discuss Kashmir for years specially when it happens to be on its SC's agenda?*

Answer the question, will ya?


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## cloneman

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> What exactly?



1.China recognised Sikkms as part of India and India recognised Tibet as part of China was a document signed by the two goverments in 1990s.You wanted to break the document? You will loose the basic goverment level trust and you will have problem on Buthan and Silkkms issues.
2.India plays the Taiwan card? That is the biggest joke this year.The only one who is playing this card is the US which is the superpower so far.And even them are quit prudent on the Taiwan issue.OK,the result of Inida develops offical tie with Taiwan will be
A.China will immediatelly cancerl the diplomatic relation with India
B.China will offically surport K a s im ire independent movement and Maoist
C.The PLA will engage war with India since under the Chinese Anti Seperalism Law which gives the PLA the authorization to fight with anybody who is seperating the Chinese territory.

PS: Next time if you guys want to kidding,please stay on an Indian forum.


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## Areesh

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> What 'Whatever'?  Answer his question if you can!
> *
> Why does UN not discuss Kashmir for years specially when it happens to be on its SC's agenda?*
> 
> Answer the question, will ya?



Whatever.

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## Hindutvadi

As if it is going to have any effect 

They have been doing this from several years and this one also will fade off in matter of time.


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## prototype

Now he must find some really good justification's when India launch the next israeli TecSAR after this.


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## KS

Thank you Iran, Now we can drop this whole "balancing act" BS and move closer to Israel in a mutually beneficial partnership and alliance.


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## Rafi

This is excellent as I am a Shia also, Iran has considerable religious influence with Shia people, this unites the Kashmiri people, they have their own freedom fighters, involved in the resistance against the indian fascist yoke. 

Our Indus Civilization has been influenced by Persia for millennia

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## prototype

cloneman said:


> 1.China recognised Sikkms as part of India and India recognised Tibet as part of China was a document signed by the two goverments in 1990s.You wanted to break the document? You will loose the basic goverment level trust and you will have problem on Buthan and Silkkms issues.



Suddenly china put Indian Kashmir on the disputed list after all this yrs accepting that as a part of Indian territory,and the irony is that they do not consider Pakistani Kashmir as a disputed one,u had already broke the trust factor,now Sikkim does not matter much,by the way bhutan is not an Indian territory.



cloneman said:


> 2.India plays the Taiwan card? That is the biggest joke this year.The only one who is playing this card is the US which is the superpower so far.And even them are quit prudent on the Taiwan issue.OK,the result of Inida develops offical tie with Taiwan will be
> 
> A.China will immediatelly cancerl the diplomatic relation with India



the only thing china can do,meanwhile i think u still have diplomatic relation's with U.S after their ardent support of Taiwan



cloneman said:


> B.China will offically surport K a s im ire independent movement and Maoist



Go on,we r now used to this,meanwhile i consider this activities as the work of a coward and weak who basically cannot deal face to face,so u think that china have to resort to that level



cloneman said:


> C.The PLA will engage war with India since under the Chinese Anti Seperalism Law which gives the PLA the authorization to fight with anybody who is seperating the Chinese territory.



Ur anti separatism law stops were ur boundary stops,so how many war u had fought with U.S on this issue,dont make fanboy statements,meanwhile u r welcome,we r better prepared this time

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## LaBong

> Our Indus Civilization has been influenced by Persia for millennia



Someone should inscribe this line to website's banner.

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## Areesh

> Police fire tear gas on protesters in Kashmir
> 
> *Police in Indian-administered Kashmir have fired shots in the air and used tear gas shells to disperse hundreds of protesters in Srinagar.
> *
> Protests erupted after prayers marking the Muslim festival of Eid al-Adha.
> 
> *The demonstrators emerged from mosques chanting anti-India slogans and hurled stones at police, witnesses said.
> *
> At least 111 Kashmiris, many of them teenagers, have died in clashes with police during protests against Indian rule since June.
> 
> The BBC's Altaf Hussain in Srinagar says the authorities want to prevent a repeat of massive demonstrations in the city two months ago on the occasion of Eid al-Fitr, the Muslim festival that marks the end of Ramadan.
> 
> Police sealed off Lal Chowk - or Red Square - in the city centre on Wednesday to prevent any further gatherings.
> 
> Demonstrations also took place in Anantnag district, south of Srinagar.
> 
> Separatist leaders Syed Ali Geelani, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Shabir Shah have all been placed under house arrest, police said.



Police fire tear gas on protesters in Kashmir


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Karthic Sri said:


> Thank you Iran, Now we can drop this whole "balancing act" BS and move closer to Israel in a mutually beneficial partnership and alliance.



EXACTLY,,,YOU STOLE MY WORDS....they just gave us excuse by themself......

Now, we got nice excuse for our next step


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## Areesh

B_R_I_C said:


> May be in your or your countrymen opinion, But for us it belongs to us and thats what matters not ur opinion...say it 1 time or trillion times, does it change the reality that we hold 2/3 rd of kashmir? and will continue to govern it?? *NO*
> 
> by the way best of luck if u think that india will give kashmir to pak or anyone else....



Best of luck.


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Areesh said:


> Best of luck.



Thank you very much thats what i need....


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## Hulk

Read this thread, nothing happening. Protest are dying, this is nothing as compared to what we have seen, violent protest. It will over soon. There are pockets in Srinagar where you will find religious bigots. This explains that protest are lead from Maszid and not by political platform. Religion is used to play polytics in Kashmir.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/80844-jammu-kashmir-situation-what-after-obama-visit.html

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## below_freezing

Actually, my theory is that India today is relatively far weaker than it was in 1962. Any severe disruption to India's infrastructure may cause the country to disintegrate back into the many principalities which was India's default state for thousands of years.


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## Jade

below_freezing said:


> Actually, my theory is that India today is relatively far weaker than it was in 1962. Any severe disruption to India's infrastructure may cause the country to disintegrate back into the many principalities which was India's default state for thousands of years.



You are totally wrong in your "theory"


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## Bangalorean

below_freezing said:


> Actually, my theory is that India today is relatively far weaker than it was in 1962. Any severe disruption to India's infrastructure may cause the country to disintegrate back into the many principalities which was India's default state for thousands of years.



Maybe, or maybe not, but what makes you think that China's infrastructure will be in the same un-disrupted state at the end of it all, eh?


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## Vajra_Yuddh

Nothing new.. isn't this section kind of redundant with the same kind of boring news again and again?


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## CaptainJackSparrow

below_freezing said:


> Actually, my theory is that India today is relatively far weaker than it was in 1962. Any severe disruption to India's infrastructure may cause the country to disintegrate back into the many principalities which was India's default state for thousands of years.



Similar theories by other people have won them Nobel prizes. Great to see that a Chinese friend is on his way to get another one after liu Xiaobo.


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## MYSTIC

below_freezing said:


> Actually, my theory is that India today is relatively far weaker than it was in 1962. Any s*evere disruption to India's infrastructure* may cause the country to disintegrate back into the many principalities which was India's default state for thousands of years.



What is that supposed to mean?

If you are saying that India will be divided into smaller pieces than you are wrong. We are far too nationalist for that. May be other countries but not India. We are proud of our cultural diversity.


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## MYSTIC

cloneman said:


> 1.China recognised Sikkms as part of India and India recognised Tibet as part of China was a document signed by the two goverments in 1990s.You wanted to break the document? You will loose the basic goverment level trust and you will have problem on Buthan and Silkkms issues.
> 2.India plays the Taiwan card? That is the biggest joke this year.The only one who is playing this card is the US which is the superpower so far.And even them are quit prudent on the Taiwan issue.OK,the result of Inida develops offical tie with Taiwan will be
> A.China will immediatelly cancerl the diplomatic relation with India
> B.China will offically surport K a s im ire independent movement and Maoist
> *C.The PLA will engage war with India since under the Chinese Anti Seperalism Law which gives the PLA the authorization to fight with anybody who is seperating the Chinese territory.*
> 
> PS: Next time if you guys want to kidding,please stay on an Indian forum.



Neither PLA nor IA would ever want that. What do you think the result is going to be? I'll tell you. Death and destruction on both sides.


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## syntax_error

just one question isnt Eid ul Fiter (pardon the spelling) i.e Eid ur biggest festival???
when did Bhakri Eid become the biggest festival??


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## somebozo

Shia or sunni, the persian cultural influence pre-dates islam!
And India is already in arms with Israel so why should the Khamei's and Ayatollahs bother about. In fact India is playing a double game of deceiving Muslims. Lets not forget the Aryan invasion of India.


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## India Rising

oh my god... a major diplomatic setback t0 us... we are gonna doomed...

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## KS

Thank you Rabbit for these wonderful articles


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## somebozo

the same thing as before his visit..only indian media is giving an impression that power balance has change and making a joke of its own during the process of mass lies.



> Even after 6 months of protest and stone pelting you can gain nothing.
> This is important, like people get boared of terrorism as it was achieving nothing, they will now know stone pelting will not yeild anything either.



Its been keeping the wound sore for 63 years isn't that enough. The Indian thinking calls for bowing down where the cash flows. The Muslims think otherwise.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

somebozo said:


> the same thing as before his visit..only indian media is giving an impression that power balance has change and making a joke of its own during the process of mass lies.



What balance and between whom?


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## India Rising

somebozo said:


> the same thing as before his visit..only indian media is giving an impression that power balance has change and making a joke of its own during the process of mass lies.
> 
> 
> 
> Its been keeping the wound sore for 63 years isn't that enough. The Indian thinking calls for bowing down where the cash flows. The Muslims think otherwise.


what mass lie and balance of power??


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## CaptainJackSparrow

somebozo said:


> Its been keeping the wound sore for 63 years isn't that enough. The Indian thinking calls for bowing down where the cash flows. The Muslims think otherwise.



Bachhe paisa bolta hai aur jab paisa bolta hai na, toh acche acchon kee bolti band kar deta hai!

Yakeen nahin aata toh apni govt. ya army se poocho jo chand billion dollars ke liye apni ghairat se compromise kar rahe hain (read Kerry Lugar Bill).


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## Ammyy

indianrabbit said:


> *Despite Geelani&#8217;s resistance, schools reopened on Sept. 27 and were marked by gradual increase in attendance. More recently, scores of people protested in Lal Chowk against shutdowns. There has been dismay when in Shopian, two civilians died when the vehicle in which they were travelling turned turtle following acts of stone pelting. Many traders and transporters have defied the protest calendar and carried on their business as usual.*
> 
> *Geelani, of course, is making his way to his house in New Delhi&#8217;s upmarket Malviya Nagar for the winter, leaving the hapless stone-pelters and the distraught parents of those who lost loved ones to their own devices.* * (Shame on Geelani)*
> 
> *On the other hand, fed on a daily diet of hatred of India, they saw for themselves the most powerful man in the world praise India for its democracy and secularism.*
> 
> *Finally, Geelani and company, have to be shown up for what they are - self-seeking leaders wanting to grab next day&#8217;s headlines at the expense of the people. *



Best Part ..........


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## somebozo

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Bachhe paisa bolta hai aur jab paisa bolta hai na, toh acche acchon kee bolti band kar deta hai!
> 
> Yakeen nahin aata toh apni govt. ya army se poocho jo chand billion dollars ke liye apni ghairat se compromise kar rahe hain (read Kerry Lugar Bill).



you have chosen the right display picture my friend.
thats is why the IOK is so peaceful that every shockwave has to be blamed on excuses often very absurd like "Sunni idea of azadi"


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## graphican

Its good to see most of Indians have realized the situation of Kashmir and now they emphasize that they wouldn't let it go because of military power. But nevertheless they have stepped down from their ethical claims of it.. Good for the freedom cause!

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## MYSTIC

syntax_error said:


> just one question isnt Eid ul Fiter (pardon the spelling) i.e Eid ur biggest festival???
> when did Bhakri Eid become the biggest festival??



both are equally important I think.


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## Capt.Popeye

indianrabbit said:


> The Jammu and Kashmir situation: What after the Obama visit? (Part 1) | National News
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The separatists have clearly been discredited. Not only the Obama visit, but there are other signs of change, too. *Despite Geelanis resistance, schools reopened on Sept. 27 and were marked by gradual increase in attendance. More recently, scores of people protested in Lal Chowk against shutdowns. There has been dismay when in Shopian, two civilians died when the vehicle in which they were travelling turned turtle following acts of stone pelting. Many traders and transporters have defied the protest calendar and carried on their business as usual. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously the schools would have to reopen. The "sacrificing" leaders of the separatists have their kids studying in other parts of India, while the more enterprising among them; e.g. Asiya Andrabi etc have the means to send their kids abroad to countries like Malaysia. It is the poor "ordinary" folks in Kashmir who had a choice to keep their children uneducated (_*just a small sacrifice for a great cause*_) or gather up courage and send their children to school. Whether they acted correctly or not; they and their children *alone* will understand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Geelani, of course, is making his way to his house in New Delhis upmarket Malviya Nagar *for the winter, leaving the hapless stone-pelters and the distraught parents of those who lost loved ones to their own devices.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Ah; Geelani still has to pay tax on income of INR 1.73 crores. He had requested a waiver on that- highly unlikely. But working on that may help keep him warm.
> _An old man like him needs all the warmth that he can find._
Click to expand...


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## cloneman

*Suddenly china put Indian Kashmir on the disputed list after all this yrs accepting that as a part of Indian territory,and the irony is that they do not consider Pakistani Kashmir as a disputed one,u had already broke the trust factor,now Sikkim does not matter much,by the way bhutan is not an Indian territory*.
Doesnt matter what do you think,continue mastr.
*the only thing china can do,meanwhile i think u still have diplomatic relation's with U.S after their ardent support of Taiwan*
Dont pull into th yankss,I am talking about weak and pathetic India.
*Go on,we r now used to this,meanwhile i consider this activities as the work of a coward and weak who basically cannot deal face to face,so u think that china have to resort to that level*
Who cares what cow lovers think.
*Ur anti separatism law stops were ur boundary stops,so how many war u had fought with U.S on this issue,dont make fanboy statements,meanwhile u r welcome,we r better prepared this time *
Blah,blah,blah.We were defeated in 1962 because we were not perpared.Today is 2010,blah,blah,blan.I mean,go on mastrb.

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## cloneman

MYSTIC said:


> Neither PLA nor IA would ever want that. What do you think the result is going to be? I'll tell you. Death and destruction on both sides.



Lol,mostlikely we will crash India into seven or eight parts.A falling part India is the nature of history.
Ps:How do you know PLA doesnt want?


----------



## CaptainJackSparrow

cloneman said:


> *Suddenly china put Indian Kashmir on the disputed list after all this yrs accepting that as a part of Indian territory,and the irony is that they do not consider Pakistani Kashmir as a disputed one,u had already broke the trust factor,now Sikkim does not matter much,by the way bhutan is not an Indian territory*.
> Doesnt matter what do you think,continue mastr.
> *the only thing china can do,meanwhile i think u still have diplomatic relation's with U.S after their ardent support of Taiwan*
> Dont pull into th yankss,I am talking about weak and pathetic India.
> *Go on,we r now used to this,meanwhile i consider this activities as the work of a coward and weak who basically cannot deal face to face,so u think that china have to resort to that level*
> Who cares what cow lovers think.
> *Ur anti separatism law stops were ur boundary stops,so how many war u had fought with U.S on this issue,dont make fanboy statements,meanwhile u r welcome,we r better prepared this time *
> Blah,blah,blah.We were defeated in 1962 because we were not perpared.Today is 2010,blah,blah,blan.I mean,go on mastrb.



Watch your language mister. You are not the only one here familiar with insults you know. Post reported.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

cloneman said:


> Lol,mostlikely we will crash India into seven or eight parts.A falling part India is the nature of history.



If we fall apart, we'll make sure we are not the only ones to meet the same fate.

India falls apart and China too will fall apart. We'll make sure that happens and we have the means to ensure that it happens.


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## ChinaRocks

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> If we fall apart, we'll make sure we are not the only ones to meet the same fate.
> 
> India falls apart and China too will fall apart. We'll make sure that happens and we have the means to ensure that it happens.



More blah blah blah blah India couldnt even organized a simple sporting event like CWG, now they are talking about taking on the might of China....Wet dream india


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## CaptainJackSparrow

ChinaRocks said:


> More blah blah blah blah India couldnt even organized a simple sporting event like CWG, now they are talking about taking on the might of China....Wet dream india



Call it blah blah if 'Superpower' China has the will and the means to endure a full fledged Nuclear war for that's how the war will end if India is at the breaking point.


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## Areesh

syntax_error said:


> just one question isnt Eid ul Fiter (pardon the spelling) i.e Eid ur biggest festival???
> when did Bhakri Eid become the biggest festival??



No Eid ul Azha or Bakhra Eid is considered as the Barhi Eid or Big Eid.

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## MYSTIC

somebozo said:


> it seems necessary habbit among Indians to support each other in trolling by thanking.



same goes for Pakistani poster.

You and S_O_C_O_M keep thanking each other in every thread.


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## lionheart1

Areesh said:


> Most of them are new members most probably dual id's. You never know they might be banned when you wake up tomorrow. Don't take them serious.



your mod can ban indian members but can they take Kashmir from us ?
never wake up and face the reality, and accept it . except pakistan which other country is talking about it, any protest from Saudi Arabia, turkey nothing . you are alone in this issue

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## Jade

graphican said:


> Its good to see most of Indians have realized the situation of Kashmir and now they emphasize that they wouldn't let it go because of military power. But nevertheless they have stepped down from their ethical claims of it.. Good for the freedom cause!



You are wrong, military power has got nothing to do with Kashmir; the power is a phenomenon that Indians are witnessing recently. Our position on Kashmir was same in 1947 as it is now as is our ethical claim on Kashmirhave you seen any government of India since 1947 claiming differently on Kashmir?


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## Areesh

lionheart1 said:


> you are alone in this issue



On which island you were living all these years?

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## lionheart1

graphican said:


> Its good to see most of Indians have realized the situation of Kashmir and now they emphasize that they wouldn't let it go because of military power. But nevertheless they have stepped down from their ethical claims of it.. Good for the freedom cause!



Absolute BS. The violence is at its lowest since the insurgency began 22 years ago.

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## lionheart1

Areesh said:


> On which island you were living all these years?



i dont know what you call in your language , but in our language above statement is a troll (unrelated to the topic and unnecessary )


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## Rafi

indian hubris is good, the turning of the Kashmiri masses against india has been successful - excellent. And now the Naxalite movement has agreed to support the Kashmiri cause, a large powerful indigenous indian movement, will probably allow freedom fighters to help one another.

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## sensenreason

Rafi said:


> indian hubris is good, the turning of the Kashmiri masses against india has been successful - excellent. And now the Naxalite movement has agreed to support the Kashmiri cause, a large powerful indigenous indian movement, will probably allow freedom fighters to help one another.



While what you are saying is true...its also a fact that a BJP hater like me also is slowly starting to look towards them with some hope.It seems we are led by a Govt thats gut less and weak. I cannot think of any other country which allows itself to 'discuss' away its own territorial integrity and soverignity.

The Indian identity is at the wane. The worst mistake India's enemies will make is that they will get away after dismembering India.I think its best if India takes a right turn. First 30 years we took a left turn and then have been veering right since but with one step forward and two back...What the hell..I would rather tolerate an arrogant Murali Manohar Joshi rather than Krishna who lacks self respect?


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## Bang Galore

Rafi said:


> . And now the Naxalite movement has agreed to support the Kashmiri cause, a large powerful indigenous indian movement, will probably allow freedom fighters to help one another.






The naxalite movement has been going on from 1960. Hasn't got them anywhere and in case you didn't notice, they are not present in any areas contiguous to J&K. As much use as Khamenei statement of support, probably even less.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

lionheart1 said:


> Absolute BS. The violence is at its lowest since the insurgency began 22 years ago.



Correct - violence in terms of the death toll is at its lowest, given that Pakistan shut off support for insurgents crossing the LoC during Musharraf's rule, but anti-India sentiment, as seen from the multiple demonstrations over the last couple of years, remains as high as ever, and that is really what counts - the refusal of the Kashmiris to accept Indian occupation of their land and people.


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## The_Assassin

> Correct - violence in terms of the death toll is at its lowest, given that Pakistan shut off support for insurgents crossing the LoC during Musharraf's rule, but anti-India sentiment, as seen from the multiple demonstrations over the last couple of years, remains as high as ever, and that is really what counts - the refusal of the Kashmiris to accept Indian occupation of their land and people.



Yeah, yeah...whatever. Since when did Pak stopped supported terrorism ??? Didn't the Mumbai attacks took place with planning, training and close co-ordination by ISI and Pak army ???

It is quite the opposite. People have realized the futility of helping these terrorists in Kashmir and thus they are helping the Indian Army in their counter-terrorism efforts. Thus the terrorists are more easily killed with active support from people.

On the other hand there are just a handful of Pak sponsored separatists who are playing with people's emotion in a failing effort to project kashmir as an oppressed state. But in long term people are realizing that India is a much better option than the sufferings that Pak has to give to them. And thus most Kashmiris are taking good jobs in India rather than wasting their lives in fighting against the state.


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## Peshwa

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Correct - violence in terms of the death toll is at its lowest, given that Pakistan shut off support for insurgents crossing the LoC during Musharraf's rule,* but anti-India sentiment, as seen from the multiple demonstrations over the last couple of years, remains as high as ever*, and that is really what counts - the refusal of the Kashmiris to accept Indian occupation of their land and people.



How does one measure sentiment?

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## lionheart1

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Correct - violence in terms of the death toll is at its lowest, given that Pakistan shut off support for insurgents crossing the LoC during Musharraf's rule, but anti-India sentiment, as seen from the multiple demonstrations over the last couple of years, remains as high as ever, and that is really what counts - the refusal of the Kashmiris to accept Indian occupation of their land and people.



Indian govt have given dossier and proof of 48 terrorist camps running and nearly 2000 terrorist are ready to cross the LOC , violence are low because of fencing of loc, proper Surveillance by the army using hi-tech equipment from Israel. yes anti- India sentiment is there mainly by separatists, but kashmir vally is 1/6 of the total J&K. just a small part of the state J&k is at unrest, it does'nt means total J&K is burning . Jammu and ladakh are living a normal life


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## tomtommy

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *Anti-India demonstrations erupt in restive Kashmir on biggest Muslim festival, Eid al-Adha​*
> [/url]



ha... guess markthebullshit.com has taken a new approach... what kind of source is it... someone opened a google account... and typed in this crap.. 

atleast for sure nothing happened during this eid.... some nice online news is provided by Rising Kashmir Daily English Newspaper, Latest News of Kashmir, Breaking News of Kashmir, News Update from Kashmir, Kashmir News and kashmirobserver.net even though they are all pro-separatists..

i seriously have doubts on this particular news story...


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## Rafi

Like Mao the Professor of Guerilla Warfare, described the people as the sea, that the resistance flow like fish through, this massive support for freedom insure, that there will always be cadres willing to resist, and there will always be people willing to support them.


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## Rafi

Peshwa said:


> How does one measure sentiment?



*As the crowd continued to swell I listened carefully to the slogans, because rhetoric often holds the key to all kinds of understanding. There were plenty of insults and humiliation for India: Ay jabiron ay zalimon, Kashmir hamara chhod do (Oh oppressors, Oh wicked ones, Get out of our Kashmir.) The slogan that cut through me like a knife and clean broke my heart was this one: Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itself - Pakistan.)*


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## Peshwa

Rafi said:


> *As the crowd continued to swell I listened carefully to the slogans, because rhetoric often holds the key to all kinds of understanding. There were plenty of insults and humiliation for India: Ay jabiron ay zalimon, Kashmir hamara chhod do (Oh oppressors, Oh wicked ones, Get out of our Kashmir.) The slogan that cut through me like a knife and clean broke my heart was this one: Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itself - Pakistan.)*



Put that in a quantifiable number and present it as a chart to show that the sentiments have always been high or have soared to greater heights according to the poster I replied to...

Besides...the quote is by Arundhati Roy...NOT a Kashmiri and hence a reflection of her own account.....not taking into account the exaggeration that comes with her writing...


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## cloneman

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> India falls apart and China too will fall apart. We'll make sure that happens and we have the means to ensure that it happens.



How could you get that?By Indian type dailly bluffing?Lol


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## CaptainJackSparrow

cloneman said:


> Lol,we dont like Indians.



And we love you so much that we are shouting from the rooftops...<<<facepalm>>>


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## Rafi

Peshwa said:


> Put that in a quantifiable number and present it as a chart to show that the sentiments have always been high or have soared to greater heights according to the poster I replied to...



People in their tens of thousands, on the streets facing indian thugs, firing on innocent civilians, and still they come.

Naxalite's and indian intellectuals supporting Kashmiri right of self determination, traditionally marginalised indian people supporting the cause of Kashmiri


----------



## CaptainJackSparrow

cloneman said:


> How could you get that?By Indian type dailly bluffing?Lol



like I said...call it a bluff/blah blah/whatever if you think your mighty superpower China has the will and the means to endure a full fledged nuclear war with India.


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## cloneman

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Call it blah blah if 'Superpower' China has the will and the means to endure a full fledged Nuclear war for that's how the war will end if India is at the breaking point.



Lol,Do you know the difference between nuclear device and weaponlized warhead? Show me Indian w88 like warhead?Otherwise how could you fight a respect nuclear war? By you dailly bluffing?
Mostlikely pathetica India will be wipped out before it lauched its stupid heavy nuclear device.


----------



## cloneman

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> like I said...call it a bluff/blah blah/whatever if you think your mighty superpower China has the will and the means to endure a full fledged nuclear war with India.



Lol,we dont need a nuclear war.A CONVENTIONAL ONE IS MORE THAN ENOUGH.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The_Assassin said:


> Yeah, yeah...whatever. Since when did Pak stopped supported terrorism ??? Didn't the Mumbai attacks took place with planning, training and close co-ordination by ISI and Pak army ???


No they did not, and there is no credible evidence to support that ludicrous contention.


> It is quite the opposite. People have realized the futility of helping these terrorists in Kashmir and thus they are helping the Indian Army in their counter-terrorism efforts. Thus the terrorists are more easily killed with active support from people.


In fact, as the IA itself admits, cross-LoC insurgent activity have dropped dramatically, because of the decisions taken by Pakistan during Musharraf's rule, and that has subsequently affected the insurgency in J&K. In the absence of the insurgency, we now have these very large protests expressing the same anger towards India and rejection of its occupation of Kashmiri land and people, that fueled the insurgency. 

The anger and refusal to accept India is still just as strong, it has merely shifted from expressing itself through a violent insurgency to largely peaceful protests.


> On the other hand there are just a handful of Pak sponsored separatists who are playing with people's emotion in a failing effort to project kashmir as an oppressed state. But in long term people are realizing that India is a much better option than the sufferings that Pak has to give to them. And thus most Kashmiris are taking good jobs in India rather than wasting their lives in fighting against the state.


Pakistan does not have to project anything so long as India continues to forcibly occupy J&K and deny its residents the right to self-determination promised them repeatedly by the Indian leadership, and committed to internationally by India in the UNSC.

And if Indians and the GoI truly believed this balderdash of yours about 'Kashmiris realizing India is a better option than Pakistan', then it would be Indians and India that would be pushing for a plebiscite in J&K to end the dispute in India's favor.


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## Rafi

BENNY said:


> *OMG and the spamming continues for the second consecutive day..
> *
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/1272767-post43.html
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/1270623-post192.html
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/1270631-post194.html
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/1270586-post185.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude make it ur signature or something.. already half of the people here from that side have "india and India related things" all over their signatures. It would help not to further spam on forum.



Dude, are you like stalking me!!! jk aside.....

I genuinely think it's an important point to bring up, what is going on in IOK is well known to people in the know. 

But until that famous article in the Guardian newspaper by Ms Roy, people internationally were not aware of the strength of feeling of the Kashmiri people. It is a powerful reminder of the failure of indian state policy.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

cloneman said:


> Lol,Do you know the difference between nuclear device and weaponlized warhead? Show me Indian w88 like warhead?Otherwise how could you fight a respect nuclear war? By you dailly bluffing?
> Mostlikely pathetica India will be wipped out before it lauched its stupid heavy nuclear device.





cloneman said:


> Lol,we dont need a nuclear war.A CONVENTIONAL ONE IS MORE THAN ENOUGH.



You will make it conventional, we'll make it nuclear. Don't forgot China has much more to lose than India in case of a full fledged war because China is much more developed than India.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

lionheart1 said:


> Indian govt have given dossier and proof of 48 terrorist camps running and nearly 2000 terrorist are ready to cross the LOC , violence are low because of fencing of loc, proper Surveillance by the army using hi-tech equipment from Israel. yes anti- India sentiment is there mainly by separatists, but kashmir vally is 1/6 of the total J&K. just a small part of the state J&k is at unrest, it does'nt means total J&K is burning . Jammu and ladakh are living a normal life



What proof? Can you provide it since it is such open knowledge? And fencing and equipment is not the only reason the cross-LoC insurgent movement is down, the ceasefire between India and Pakistan along the LoC enacted during Musharraf's rule has played a major part. Fences and equipment don't last very long in the face of artillery and mortar barrages.

Like it or not, Pakistani cooperation has been instrumental in cutting back on the insurgency in J&K, but the GoI will never admit it given that it only wants to promote anti-Pakistan hate-mongering among Indians.


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## prototype

cloneman said:


> Doesnt matter what do you think,continue mastr.



So i conclude that u do not have any relevant answer



cloneman said:


> Dont pull into th yankss,I am talking about weak and pathetic India.



So officially u accept that u fret by the name of U.S contradictory to wat many of ur mates think here




cloneman said:


> Who cares what cow lovers think.



i know u only care about dog eaters




cloneman said:


> Blah,blah,blah.We were defeated in 1962 because we were not perpared.Today is 2010,blah,blah,blan.I mean,*go on mastrb.*



I will love to do that in ur mouth if that can stop making u spit stupidity

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## cloneman

Description Pathetical India


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## Rafi

Peshwa said:


> Put that in a quantifiable number and present it as a chart to show that the sentiments have always been high or have soared to greater heights according to the poster I replied to...
> 
> Besides...the quote is by Arundhati Roy...NOT a Kashmiri and hence a reflection of her own account.....not taking into account the exaggeration that comes with her writing...



Just had a eureka moment, lets have a plebiscite - and if you win - we will forget about Kashmir, you can't have it both ways. The people of J&K were promised a vote to decide their future, by no less that the first indian prime minister of post British india. By refusing that promise india has shown itself as untrustworthy, by the people there.

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## cloneman

Another pathetical India.Whoops,its a general.


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## prototype

cloneman said:


> Lol,Do you know the difference between nuclear device and weaponlized warhead? Show me Indian w88 like warhead?Otherwise how could you fight a respect nuclear war? By you dailly bluffing?
> Mostlikely pathetica India will be wipped out before it lauched its stupid heavy nuclear device.



Just have one look at ur post herself,u will know who is bluffing,so how u plan to disintegrate India,by typing 1962 on ur keyboard or by farting in front of ur laptop,well that will be a much bigger abomination than a nuclear device if u have constipation

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## CaptainJackSparrow

cloneman said:


> Description Pathetical India





cloneman said:


> Another pathetical India.Whoops,its a general.





cloneman said:


> lol,a buntch of Indian loosers



*If you think you are soooooooo powerful, come and take Arunachal or South tibet or whatever you call it.

Have balls? Take Arunachal. Till then, Eat My Shorts!

End of discussion.

*


----------



## cloneman

lol,Indian loosers in war prison.What were they celebrating?


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## Mirza Jatt

guys why are you replying to a troll ? just report the posts.


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## prototype

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> If you think you are soooooooo powerful, come and take Arunachal or South tibet or whatever you call it.
> 
> Have balls? Take Arunachal. Till then, Buzz off!
> 
> End of discussion.



Dont intimidate him,did not u noticed his name,he is a *clone* of *man*,,the successful product of Chinese reverse engineering,he had 4 balls instead of 2

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## cloneman

Lay down your weapon,Indian looser.


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## gubbi

Rafi said:


> Just had a eureka moment, lets have a plebiscite - and if you win - we will forget about Kashmir, you can't have it both ways.


Aint happening. Numerous reasons, many of which were discussed ad nauseum in many threads here.


> The people of J&K were promised a vote to decide their future, by no less that the first indian prime minister of post British india. By refusing that promise india has shown itself as untrustworthy, by the people there.


Lol, you so desperately want to believe the words and promises of politicians? That too a long dead one? Its much easier to extract promises made from living politicians than stick to words of long dead ones. 

Bottomline: aint happening. All of Pakistan's efforts have been in vain, past and present. So shall they be in future too. As for the "indigenous" struggle, it will be suppressed by any means deemed necessary by Indian authorities.

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## CaptainJackSparrow

cloneman said:


> Lay down your weapon,Indian looser.



*If you think you are soooooooo powerful, come and take Arunachal or South tibet or whatever you call it.

Have balls? Take Arunachal. Till then, Eat My Shorts!

End of discussion.

*


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## cloneman

Captured Indian junks lol


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## prototype

not required


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## prototype

Sit back and enjoy,i think u already got one


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Peshwa said:


> How does one measure sentiment?



The only comprehensive way to measure it would be through a UN held plebiscite .... as agreed to by India and Pakistan and the international community through the UNSC resolutions on Kashmir and promised to the Kashmiris by India.

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## alpha proton

leave it guys,u r just inviting this type,i dont think people here r even serious about what they type


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## cloneman

---------- Post added at 12:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:24 AM ----------






lol,I would say the Indians are quit professional in surrounding.


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## Peshwa

Rafi said:


> People in their tens of thousands, on the streets facing indian thugs, firing on innocent civilians, and still they come.
> 
> *Naxalite's and indian intellectuals supporting Kashmiri right of self determination, traditionally marginalised indian people supporting the cause of Kashmiri :wave*:



Population of Indian Kashmir: 10Million

Protestors... Few Thousand (and one cannot be even sure if these are repeat offenders or a new unique set of protestors coming to the streets)

When one claims the "majority" of Kashmiris have "anti India" sentiments that run high....one must be talking at least in millions to come even close to being called a consensus....


The bolded part is nothing more than "My enemies enemy is my friend"...I wouldnt read much into it if I were you...


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## CardSharp

Fight fight fight fight!


----------



## Rafi

So promises can be broken, that is why the Kashmiri people will fight for their freedom until it is achieved


----------



## Gandhi G in da house

somebozo said:


> whats the use of digging dead rotten corpses?? India was as well invaded and after 1400 years stands permanently divided into three parts two of them being Muslim. And Iranians are as proud of being Muslims as anyone else. Spread of Islam across India and central Asia is credited to Persians!
> 
> Making leader brass was large shia and outside the propaganda hyped western of hardliner media, the Shia and Sunni have considerable unity through the bonds of Islam regardless of sect.



Fact is that most of the indian sub continent still remains non muslim and the muslim countries happen to be much smaller than the large non-muslim majority country . This, after centuries of invasions and foreign rule .

Many other countries in the world including iran/persia can not boast of such an achievement.

About how proud iranians are as muslims is debatable at best . do a little more research on the net about this with an open/unbiased mind.


----------



## building7

hindu dosnt see the reality time to put some facts in there place half a million hindu army(half there army) cant subjegate the so called minority after 60 years,they want freedom and they will get it.we know un is a nobody .


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## Abii

nick_indian said:


> Fact is that most of the indian sub continent still remains non muslim and the muslim countries happen to be much smaller than the large non-muslim majority country . This, after centuries of invasions and foreign rule .
> 
> Many other countries in the world including iran/persia can not boast of such an achievement.
> 
> About how proud iranians are as muslims is debatable at best . do a little more research on the net about this with an open/unbiased mind.


Iran was the closest country to the Arabs and for almost a century the Iranian people resisted the Arabs. Iran had become weak because of constant battles with the Romans. We captured a Roman emperor alive and imprisoned him until he died. The prison was built by Roman POW's and Iran is the only country to ever capture a Roman emperor alive. We also killed 2 more Roman emperors in battle. Anyways, all these battles took a toll and we fell to the arabs. Although we became muslim, our language survived. No other nation in the region survived except us. Babylonians, Palestinians, Egyptians etc... they all became arab. The arabs used to cut your tongue if you didn't speak arabic. They burned our libraries and banned the language from being spoken in Iran. We survived even though we were at a walking distance from Saudi Arabia. 

India was on the other side of the planet. Yet you have millions of muslims, more than Iran's population lol

btw, even though I'm not muslim, I can say that millions of Iranian are extremely proud of their Shia Islamic history. Islam and Zoroastrianism aren't that different either tbh. Heaven, Hell, evil, good, monotheistic, etc...

Look at you Indians though. You're all speaking English because of the British rule. In Iran nobody speaks arabic, not even the mullahs.

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## Bang Galore

Abii said:


> *Look at you Indians though. You're all speaking English because of the British rule. In Iran nobody speaks arabic, not even the mullahs.*



And what language is this haranguing of yours in?

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Bang Galore said:


> And what language is this haranguing of yours in?



The Irony! 


Besides,why are people equating Ayatollah Khamenei"s statement/opinions to that of official Iran's stand?

let Ahmadinejad voice his concerns then we"ll see.


----------



## Abii

Bombensturm said:


> *The Irony! *
> 
> 
> Besides,why are people equating Ayatollah Khamenei"s statement/opinions to that of official Iran's stand?
> 
> let Ahmadinejad voice his concerns then we"ll see.



lol are you Indians this dumb? No wonder your country is such a **** hole. 


And Khamenei has more power than 10 Ahmadinejads. This is why he's called the Supreme Leader. 

ahmadinejad doesn't control the army, navy, air force, parliament, budget 
he controls nothing
Iran's "commander in chief" is khamenei.

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## LaBong

Any person worth his salt would understand who's acting all dumb here. 

Stop behaving like adolescents on high adrenaline and move on. No one gives a damn to Iran clergies. 

If only adultery could cause earthquake.

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## Frank Martin

somebozo said:


> it seems necessary habbit among Indians to support each other in trolling by thanking.


Oh really? If you people trols it termed as voice of Kashmir and our biting counter answers put as trolls..infact THE BIGGEST TROLLER OF PDF STARTED THE THREAD


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## indushek

Does any one know the reaction from our South Block to this statement.


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## LaBong

indushek said:


> Does any one know the reaction from our South Block to this statement.



Why South Block would give any reaction to a political statement of a religious figure?


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## Chinese-Dragon

Abii said:


> lol are you Indians this dumb? No wonder your country is such a **** hole.



Is that really necessary?


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## paritosh

UnitedPak said:


> *Support Kashmir: Iran to Muslims*
> 
> Support Kashmir Iran to Muslims Lastupdate:- Tue, 16 Nov 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com
> 
> *Khamenei urges Islamic world to "sympathise, provide assistance" to Kashmir*
> 
> 
> Khamenei urges Islamic world to "sympathise, provide assistance" to Kashmir - Oneindia News



simplifies our foreign policy....viz-a-viz Iran.
It is countries like the USA,China,Russia and the EU whose take on Kashmir matters not of Iran,Zambia,Zaire...


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## Bang Galore

paritosh said:


> simplifies our foreign policy....viz-a-viz Iran.
> It is countries like the USA,China,Russia and the EU whose take on Kashmir matters not of Iran,Zambia,Zaire...



Make you wonder what they are thinking, doesn't it? Obama comes to India, lectures us anout how India should be taking a harder stand against Iran, Government officials/ministers demur and promptly Khamenei issues this statement. Makes Obama's job that much easier.

Some people are their own worst enemies!

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## Pagla Dashu

mjnaushad said:


> Highlights of the Noon Briefing
> 
> KASHMIR REMAINS ON SECURITY COUNCIL AGENDA: Asked about media reports suggesting that Kashmir had been removed from a list of Security Council agenda items, the Spokesperson said that *the authors of the media articles* may have only looked at the most recent addendum to the Summary statement of matters on which the Security Council is seized, which publishes only the list of matters which have been considered in a formal meeting since 1 Jan. 2007. They missed in that addendum a paragraph explaining that the full list appears in Add.9 of Mar. 2010. That list continues to include the agenda items which the Council has taken up, including Kashmir, which, by a decision of the Council, remains on the list for this year.


It was Pakistani Ambassador Mr Sial who raised the issue, needlessly, claiming it to be an 'inadvertent' mistake on the part of the UN, and the Indian media merely reported it. 

The question remains unanswered though, what was Mr Sial thinking?


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## SpArK

Pagla Dashu said:


> It was Pakistani Ambassador Mr Sial who raised the issue, needlessly, claiming it to be an 'inadvertent' mistake on the part of the UN, and the Indian media merely reported it.
> 
> The question remains unanswered though, what was Mr Sial thinking?



Hey.... if its in the UN site.. its got to be true.. stop complaining and move on with it..


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## Abii

Abir said:


> Any person worth his salt would understand who's acting all dumb here.
> 
> Stop behaving like adolescents on high adrenaline and move on. *No one gives a damn to Iran clergies. *
> 
> If only adultery could cause earthquake.



seems like you do or you wouldn't be in this thread commenting

You Hindus are acting like Iran owes you something!!!


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## twoplustwoisfour

paritosh said:


> simplifies our foreign policy....viz-a-viz Iran.
> It is countries like the USA,China,Russia and the EU whose take on Kashmir matters not of Iran,Zambia,Zaire...



No, it doesn't simplify our foreign policy. Remember, India is on a please all mission to get UN reforms. The vote of each country counts, be it Iran or Zaire.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

twoplustwoisfour said:


> Damn, I can now imagine the quagmire of being a Pakistani. It's a huge identity crisis. I mean, you guys can't decide on your history!! One moment, you are arabs (not Indian darkies), the other moment, you are not.



Thanks for spoiling the thread...... Pakistan is a unique country!
Balouchistan was a part of Iran.... Pushtunkhwa was Afghanistan,N\A turkic,Punjab is a region where several ethicities live.... u will find syeds(Decendants of PBUH eg: Gillanis,bukharis,makhdooms,etc etc.... u will fing balouchs legharis,buzdars etc, u will find pushtuns naizis,kakezais,etc, u will find hazars(mongols) u will find hindowans(pushtuns),gakhars(iranian),mughals etc.... then u will find ethnic Jatts,Rajputs,Maliks who are proud of their indian ancestory...... but are not very much in number...Then we have sindhis same goes with them ... they have balouchs,syeds etc but at the same time Rajputs etc.. then u will find mohajirs frm india, UP,CP who have their own culture but in them u will find syeds(arabs,pushtuns etc)..... etc so Pakistani Society is formed.



> One moment, your history is same as arab history, another moment, your history starts at the partition, and another moment, you are a part of India for millennia.



Lol... we dont share arab history kid.
Indus civilisation is where present day Pakistan is was Indus civilisations(which never spreead to the plains of ganges)? gandhara of pushtuns?harappa(which never spread to india) and mehargarh(balouchistan)..... Also Present day Pakistan was always isolated frm india or todays india and her people... either it had its own states or was part of others.



> I feel for you guys.



I feel for brain washed indians like urself who are confused.

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## S_O_C_O_M

*Indian authorities must release 14-year-old held in Kashmir without charge​*
18 November 2010


Amnesty International has urged authorities in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir to release a 14-year-old child who has been detained without charge or trial for seven months, for allegedly taking part in anti-government protests.

The authorities claim that Mushtag Ahmad Sheikh was part of a large crowd which threw stones at police and security forces in the state capital Srinagar in April, as part of the ongoing unrest in Kashmir.

Police say that Mushtag Ahmad Sheikh is 19-years-old but his family claim that he was born in 1996 and is 14-years-old. Prison records reportedly confirm that he is a child. 

"Mushtaq Ahmad Sheikh must either be charged with a recognizable criminal offence or released immediately," said Sam Zarifi, Amnesty International's Asia-Pacific Director.

"If he is charged, he should be treated in accordance with the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, held and tried in special facilities for children."

Mushtaq Ahmad Sheikh was first arrested in Srinagar on 9 April. He was released on bail after eight days in custody and rearrested on 21 April.

His family was not officially told that he had been detained but found out about it through a local resident.

Initially held at Udhampur Jail, Mushtaq Ahmad Sheikh is now held at Kot Bhalwal Jail in Jammu.

Both prisons do not have special facilities for detaining children. Prison Conditions in Jammu are harsh with limited health care.

In May, Amnesty International raised Mushtaq Ahmad Sheikh's detention at a meeting with the Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir and the State Human Rights Commission. To date, despite their assurances, nothing appears to have been done.

Mushtaq Ahmad Sheikh is detained under the Jammu and Kashmir Public Safety Act - a law that allows the authorities to hold people for up to two years without any judicial review.

This year, at least 322 people are reported to have been detained without trial under the act. A number of them, including children, have been detained on similar grounds of stone throwing and rioting during protests against the Indian government.

Over the summer demonstrators in Jammu and Kashmir voiced their concerns about the lack of accountability of the security forces; the withdrawal of the Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act (AFSPA) and the removal of Army camps - along with the underlying demand of independence for Kashmir.

Indian authorities must release 14-year-old held in Kashmir without charge


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## justanobserver

Abii said:


> Look at you Indians though. You're all speaking English because of the British rule. In Iran nobody speaks arabic, not even the mullahs.



Your language (Persian?) itself uses the Arabic script. Talk about irony


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## Vajra_Yuddh

Abii said:


> seems like you do or you wouldn't be in this thread commenting
> 
> You Hindus are acting like Iran owes you something!!!


The point is that your religious leader is simply issuing statements similar to what we might have issued earlier at IAEA. Remember, our stance is not against Iran acquiring nuclear energy; it is against them acquiring nuclear weapons.

The agreeing with USA came at this very condition and therefore we have done nothing wrong. Why are you pretending as if we cheated you or something? We never said we encouraged another nuclear weapons state in the region, while our foreign minister clearly told US to mind its business in not telling us what to do when it comes to your right for nuclear energy for consumption.

Let me ask you this:

If indeed Iran is asking for nuclear energy for its civilian consumption, then why is it so against showing NSG and IAEA? What is the harm in showing it to them which are a body for everybody? Every non-nuclear country has shown it to them: Japan, South Korea whole of Europe both east and west, South Africa, India and every other country for trading in nuclear fuel. *Even Israel*. Yes even them because this is about nuclear fuel for electricity and consumption, not weapons.

Then what itch does your leadership have in showing the nuclear plants to an international body if they are sincere about using it for civilian consumption? Why hesitate to show these plants?

To date, no Iranian (supportive of their government) has answered me this.


Regarding Hindus "owning everything", don't be religiously biased when commenting. It was a Hindus that took Zoroastrians unconditionally in from Iran when they were fleeing for the sake of their faith from Iran which was suffering from Arab and Islamic invasions. And it is my mainstream Hindu brothers because of which all religions live peacefully in India included foreign communities who escaped the madness in their own homelands. Your ancient faith made it to this era because of the same Hindus that you are mocking at.

Next time if you don't want a religion-aimed remark, don't try to be religious with about our Hindu brothers too. Have some respect for all faiths.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*'Friend' Iran calls India a Zionist regime​*

Indrani Bagchi, TNN, Nov 19, 2010, 12.36am IST


NEW DELHI: Iran is a close friend of India, but that has not prevented its supreme leader, Ali Khamenei, from asking the world's Muslims to support the "struggle" in Kashmir against "Zionist regimes". 

In his Haj message to pilgrims earlier this week, Khamenei said, "Today the major duties of the elite of the Islamic Ummah is to provide help to the Palestinian nation and the besieged people of Gaza, to sympathize and provide assistance to the nations of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and Kashmir, to engage in struggle and resistance against the aggressions of the United States and the Zionist regime, to safeguard the solidarity of Muslims and stop tainted hands and mercenary voices that try to damage this unity, to spread awakening and the sense of responsibility and commitment among Muslim youth throughout Islamic communities." 

In the 1990s, India had registered its gratitude to Iran for helping it out diplomatically on Kashmir on human rights. But despite it all, Iran continues to play the Kashmir card in the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC), as do other Islamic countries even as they privately tell the Indian foreign office that they did not mean it. 


'Friend' Iran calls India a Zionist regime - The Times of India

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## r3alist

S_O_C_O_M said:


>




what the heck is that for?

iran's words on kashmir should be taken with a table spoon of salt - these are the guys who have stopped kashmir becoming a bigger issue in the islamic world and have previously sided with india - never forget this, sure we should exploit them opening up but remember these iranians are like chameleons and i think they realise they need us to be friendly - well lets get a bloody good deal


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Even TOI is equating Khamenei's statements to that of Iran's. 


Besides even if Govt of Iran mentions the K-word,it too late to make any difference.



on the lighter note:i guess ZH fans must be on cloud 9 .

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## black_magic pk

a pleasant air coming from iran in times of osama opps sorry obama arming india..., enemy's enemy is a friend


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## DesiGuy

damm u ppl, it's TOI!!

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## r3alist

> Even TOI is equating Khamenei's statements to that of Iran's.



not to say that i am buying into this as match as others but khamenei is the real power in iran, not a'jad.


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## tomtommy

timesofindia simply shows a lot of crap... it is not a good source at all..

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

r3alist said:


> not to say that i am buying into this as match as others but khamenei is the real power in iran, not a'jad.



True! its he who pulls the strings,though , we prefer diplomatic statements for a nations stand

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## SpArK

Bombensturm said:


> True! it he who pulls the strings,though , we prefer diplomatic statements for a nations stand



Diplomacy is going well .. even as they spoke those words there will be a meeting here on saturday..

its just a publicity stunt.. we know how long it lasts.. dont we.?? 

International conference on India''s ties with Gulf countries - *National News ? News ? MSN India

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## Dr sim

India is not going to support them to become a nuclear weapon state and they r not getting a nuclear weapon as long as Israel is there.


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## black_magic pk

BENNY said:


> Diplomacy is going well .. even as they spoke those words there will be a meeting here on saturday..
> 
> its just a publicity stunt.. we know how long it lasts.. dont we.??
> 
> International conference on India''s ties with Gulf countries - *National News ? News ? MSN India



publicity stunt??... cn u elaborate please


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## SpArK

black_magic pk said:


> publicity stunt??... cn u elaborate please



Not in a mood.. figure it out all by urself please.

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## Omar1984

Good to see Iran has finally woken up to the truth. India is very close to Israel while it says its a friend to Iran. While Pakistan doesn't even recognize Israel.

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## UnitedPak

Times of India said:


> ... as do other Islamic countries even as they privately tell the Indian foreign office that they did not mean it.
> 
> 'Friend' Iran calls India a Zionist regime - The Times of India



Horrible journalism. I don't know how true this claim is but it portrays a warped understanding of how international diplomacy works. "Privately telling" someone otherwise after publicly having a dig at them should be more of an insult than a gesture of loyalty. It might soothe the ego but seriously, read between the lines.

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## Peshwa

r3alist said:


> not to say that i am buying into this as match as others but kamini is the real power in iran, not a'jad.



The day a Religious leader of Iran calls the shots on the foreign policy of Iran will be the day that the few remaining friends Iran has isolate it....

A'jad is tolerated because no matter what, he is still a democratically elected leader of the nation....

I think its such irresponsible statements from religious figures that will provide the west fodder to promote their agenda wrt Iran...


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## black_magic pk

BENNY said:


> Not in a mood.. figure it out all by urself please.



wooow man!!!, im not near as intelligent enough as compared to you my lord, good job keep it up

hope no other buddy gives a shyt to your post..(btw where did u learn the manners from gandhi??)


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## TechLahore

r3alist said:


> what the heck is that for?
> 
> iran's words on kashmir should be taken with a table spoon of salt - these are the guys who have stopped kashmir becoming a bigger issue in the islamic world and have previously sided with india - never forget this, sure we should exploit them opening up but remember these iranians are like chameleons and i think they realise they need us to be friendly - well lets get a bloody good deal



You need to back the hell off. And I noticed you misspelled Iran's religious leader's name in an inappropriate way. Keep this $hit up and I will ban you. Have some respect even if it doesn't come naturally to you. How would you like it if someone misspelled your elders' name and made it into an abuse?


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## mehru

First of all, I would like to commend the journalistic standard of TOI again. 

Secondly, this is not an official statement from the Govt of Iran. Khamenei is a powerful politician no doubt but right now he is not in the power so his words mean nothing. And where did he mention India as a Zionist regime?

@ Socom
Please tell me that why we Pakistanis should feel happy about this. I think we know Iran very well. This guy will privately apologize to India later on that he didn't mean it.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Peshwa said:


> The day a Religious leader of Iran calls the shots on the foreign policy of Iran will be the day that the few remaining friends Iran has isolate it....
> 
> A'jad is tolerated because no matter what, he is still a democratically elected leader of the nation....
> 
> I think its such irresponsible statements from religious figures that will provide the west fodder to promote their agenda wrt Iran...



I wouldn't be surprised if this statement comes from A'jad,

I mean they are moving into isolation by criticizing a few friends they have.

Ahmadinejad slams Russia for selling out to &#8220;Satan&#8221;

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## r3alist

TechLahore said:


> You need to back the hell off. And I noticed you misspelled Iran's religious leader's name in an inappropriate way. Keep this $hit up and I will ban you. Have some respect even if it doesn't come naturally to you. How would you like it if someone misspelled your elders' name and made it into an abuse?



please expand on why i need to "back the hell off"

and i did not mention the grand ayatollah anywhere


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## Dr sim

Omar1984 said:


> Good to see Iran has finally woken up to the truth. India is very close to Israel while it says its a friend to Iran. While Pakistan doesn't even recognize Israel.



beautiful pics.... love the flag bit

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## TOPGUN

Now this is funny hahaha Iran's leader says some really funny stuff but yet seems so true thx Iran for making others open there eyes to reality.


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## Omar1984

Bombensturm said:


> I mean they are moving into isolation by criticizing a few friends they have.



Iran will never be isolated especially with that much oil and gas it has in its territory 

Most of Asia is still with Iran.

Even under sanctions, Iran is doing quite well.


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## DesiGuy

nowadays, NO nation care about religions or beleifs. it's all diplomacy and politics. Some people really mix emotions and personal beliefs with it.

the sooner Pakistani ppl understand, the better it will be.

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## black_magic pk

making enemies with some makes friends with others, its a rule

so great job iran and our indian friends should not worry abt iran isolation... iran has learned playing with countries who themselves play double games is not a good game..


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Omar1984 said:


> Iran will never be isolated especially with that much oil and gas it has in its territory
> 
> Most of Asia is still with Iran.
> 
> Even under sanctions, Iran is doing quite well.



I meant defence suppliers, if not Russia the other alternative is China.

But if China to refuses because of UN sanctions then who?


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## SpArK

Bombensturm said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if this statement comes from A'jad,
> 
> I mean they are moving into isolation by criticizing a few friends they have.
> 
> Ahmadinejad slams Russia for selling out to &#8220;Satan&#8221;



The Russians have clearly acted upon order from US and NATO for sure. But they have returned the money they got. And the sanctions are really turning the heat on.




black_magic pk said:


> wooow man!!!, im not near as intelligent enough as compared to you my lord, good job keep it up
> 
> hope no other buddy gives a shyt to your post..(_*btw where did u learn the manners from ghandhi*_??)



Nope its inborn.. a very rare quality indeed.- manners.

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## TechLahore

r3alist said:


> please expand on why i need to "back the hell off"
> 
> and i did not mention the grand ayatollah anywhere



You misspelled Khamenei's name. I corrected it in the original and quoted posts. Since you didn't just drop a character or two and instead transformed the name into a slur, you will do well to not press the point and chicken out now that you have been confronted.

As for why you need to back the hell off, one pretty darn good reason would be that you continue to give strategic relationship threads, which have nothing to do with mullahs or sectarianism, a sectarian colour. You need to understand that every country has a right to its own form of government. If you don't like mullahs governing Iran, tough. If you don't like the Queen being the sovereign of England, ditto. Your personal preferences don't give you any right to be abusive.

Keep your sectarian tilts close to your chest. Put that ugliness where it belongs and don't pollute this forum with it.

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## r3alist

DesiGuy said:


> nowadays, NO nation care about religions or beleifs. it's all diplomacy and politics. Some people really mix emotions and personal beliefs with it.
> 
> the sooner Pakistani ppl understand, the better it will be.



the second sentence is correct.

the first is partially correct, religion is not important, but the pretense of religion, religiosity and all other such traits are....


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## Omar1984

Bombensturm said:


> I meant defence suppliers, if not Russia the other alternative is China.
> 
> But if China to refuses because of UN sanctions then who?



China will not turn its back on Iran.

China needs Iran for oil and gas, and Iran needs China.

China will not jeopardize its relations with Iran for the west.

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## Vajra_Yuddh

Seriously, wasn't TOI a black mole in this forum till now? I mean I got the hang of this despite being only a few posts old here. How come it is now quoted as a "reliable source".

Even if Khameinei has mentioned it, it doesn't endorse the formal quote from Iranian Government. Unless and until they make it their foreign policy, it simply cannot be said. In fact, we can completely understand that they have some cards that Iranians have to play sometimes to keep their feet dry too.

It is okay.

The lighter note of this part is that there's not a single Jew in the ruling government's high office  funny he should mention "Zionist" in our context. The last time any Jew took high office in India was Lt. Gen. (rtd) JFR Jacob during NDA ruled government, as the NSA..


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## r3alist

TechLahore said:


> You misspelled Khamenei's name. I corrected it in the original and quoted posts. Since you didn't just drop a character or two and instead transformed the name into a slur, you will do well to not press the point and chicken out now that you have been confronted.
> 
> As for why you need to back the hell off, one pretty darn good reason would be that you continue to give strategic relationship threads, which have nothing to do with mullahs or sectarianism, a sectarian colour. You need to understand that every country has a right to its own form of government. If you don't like mullahs governing Iran, tough. If you don't like the Queen being the sovereign of England, ditto. Your personal preferences don't give you any right to be abusive.
> 
> Keep your sectarian tilts close to your chest. Put that ugliness where it belongs and don't pollute this forum with it.



sure i have certain problems with iran - yet why the heck you need to threaten me to "back off" about expressing my dismay with their previous behavior is pretty mind boggling - unless its a taboo subject because my gripes are with their political choices, nothing else


and the accusation of sectarianism is mind boggling - there is not an iota of evidence from what i have posted to suggest i am in the anti shia camp - the complete opposite, you have your wires very very crossed, religion is not the motivation here.


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## black_magic pk

^^ its same as labelling every terrorism as jihad, the words are pretty much globalized and the traits of nations are brought in the most fimiliar famous example and refered that way in order to make a point..


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## Rafi

There are some indian kids on this forum, he is the Supreme Leader, and more powerful than the President, his word is law. 

And being a Shia myself, I would like to thank the mods for refusing sectarianism on this site.

Thank you Iran


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Omar1984 said:


> China will not turn its back on Iran.
> 
> China needs Iran for oil and gas, and Iran needs China.
> 
> China will not jeopardize its relations with Iran for the west.




China did agreed to cancel Technology Transfers.

Article: U.S. Halted Nuclear Bid By Iran; China, Argentina Agreed to Cancel Technology Transfers

Also China supports sanctions ,though resisted further sanctions.

Clinton Says Russia, China, U.S. Back Iran Sanctions

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## Peshwa

Omar1984 said:


> China will not turn its back on Iran.
> 
> China needs Iran for oil and gas, and Iran needs China.
> 
> China will not jeopardize its relations with Iran for the west.



Its fascinating to see some Pakistanis act like self proclaimed spokespersons for China and its foreign policy....

Lets be clear on one thing....
No Pakistani....nor a Chinese person on this forum has ANY say in China's foreign policy....You might as well be speaking to a wall...

Chinese foreign policy is driven by the CPC ONLY....so what they might or might not do is at max speculation on your part especially considering the insignificance it has to the Chinese policymakers...

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## TechLahore

r3alist said:


> sure i have certain problems with iran - yet why the heck you need to threaten me to "back off" about expressing my dismay with their previous behavior is pretty mind boggling - unless its a taboo subject because my gripes are with their political choices, nothing else
> 
> and the accusation of sectarianism is mind boggling - there is not an iota of evidence from what i have posted to suggest i am in the anti shia camp - the complete opposite, you have your wires very very crossed, religion is not the motivation here.




I am not going to play games with you. Your mind can get as boggled as it likes but it should abstain from infusing sectarianism into these discussions if it wants to continue participation here. Case closed. End of discussion. Move along.


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## Rafi

Peshwa said:


> Its fascinating to see some Pakistanis act like self proclaimed spokespersons for China and its foreign policy....
> 
> Lets be clear on one thing....
> No Pakistani....nor a Chinese person on this forum has ANY say in China's foreign policy....You might as well be speaking to a wall...
> 
> Chinese foreign policy is driven by the CPC ONLY....so what they might or might not do is at max speculation on your part especially considering the insignificance it has to the Chinese policymakers...



Yes but the CPC - knows the writing on the wall


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## r3alist

TechLahore said:


> I am not going to play games with you. Your mind can get as boggled as it likes but it should abstain from infusing sectarianism into these discussions if it wants to continue participation here. Case closed. End of discussion. Move along.




complete straw man argument, i have no idea what i have said to make you upset, this is meant to be a place with "enlightened" moderators, i can't go around calling you a black hater, or a hindu hater without explanation, so why can you do the same to me?

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## TechLahore

I thought I already "explained" to you that you writing out Khamenei's name as a slur was unacceptable. I corrected that for you instead of deleting your post and warned you. Perhaps I should just have banned you instead for your cheap bit of passive aggressive trolling.


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## Jackdaws

There is a reason why ToI outsells papers like the Hindu by some 100:1 margin. Tomorrow expect Arnab Goswami on Times Now to go hammer and tongs at some Iranian Ambassador on TV. I expect the Iranian Govt. to issue a clarification soon and the dust will settle.

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## GORKHALI

Read b/w those extracts-Even though they doesn't mean this says officials of OIC..


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## TechLahore

r3alist: Really? You are going to ask me what you said that might be considered "objectionable"? In the same post you have admitted to calling a religious leader and a friendly country's head of state "******" for no reason whatsoever. As per forum policy you are banned. Take some time off, come back once you've dispensed with the rudeness and we can continue the discussion.


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## GORKHALI

They alread gotta handful of frnds with lots of hot issues unresolved,its india who providing a thin sheet diplomatically against US - ISRAEL ATTACK so i don't think they want to loose india support anytime soon.. And well about zionist regime then they must ready to see IAF PLANES HOVERING OVER IRAN From israeli airspace ,do they mean like that ? ?


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## Bhim

Another Anti US feelings being displaced onto India...

But the reality is India has its own foreign policy and fixed long term strategy for the region and the world. So it would be foolish for any one to believe that India is submissive or can change directions on some one else's bidding.

*Interesting the forum seems strict Unipolar on opinions*..


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## CaptainPrice

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *'Friend' Iran calls India a Zionist regime​*
> 
> Indrani Bagchi, TNN, Nov 19, 2010, 12.36am IST
> 
> 
> NEW DELHI: Iran is a close friend of India, but that has not prevented its supreme leader, Ali Khamenei, from asking the world's Muslims to support the "struggle" in Kashmir against "Zionist regimes".
> 
> In his Haj message to pilgrims earlier this week, Khamenei said, "Today the major duties of the elite of the Islamic Ummah is to provide help to the Palestinian nation and the besieged people of Gaza, to sympathize and provide assistance to the nations of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and Kashmir, to engage in struggle and resistance against the aggressions of the United States and the Zionist regime, to safeguard the solidarity of Muslims and stop tainted hands and mercenary voices that try to damage this unity, to spread awakening and the sense of responsibility and commitment among Muslim youth throughout Islamic communities."
> 
> In the 1990s, India had registered its gratitude to Iran for helping it out diplomatically on Kashmir on human rights. But despite it all, Iran continues to play the Kashmir card in the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC), as do other Islamic countries even as they privately tell the Indian foreign office that they did not mean it.
> 
> 
> 'Friend' Iran calls India a Zionist regime - The Times of India



I don't think You should trust Iran.It can backstab you for sure.


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## Abii

justanobserver said:


> Your language (Persian?) itself uses the Arabic script. Talk about irony



Persians developed the script alongside the arabs genius! 
btw, the Persian alphabet has 4 extra letters and some of the similar letters are used differently. Arabs also use accents while we don't. 

And anyways, it's like saying English and Turkish and Russian are the same because of their scripts lmao!! 
You Hindus come up with weird ****.


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## PakSher

India has stabbed Iran in the back many times, so what is the big deal if Iran's leader called India a zionist regime.


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## black_magic pk

is he the say guy named NIMA????????? with his usual racist BS shitt??


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## Ganguly

black_magic pk said:


> wooow man!!!, im not near as intelligent enough as compared to you my lord, good job keep it up
> 
> hope no other buddy gives a shyt to your post..(*btw where did u learn the manners from ghandhi??*)



No from Jinnah...


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## Lala_Peace

What ever...who ever say what is not going to impact India.


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## AR

I think Iranian leaders are in dream...... but one thing is sure this has cleared Indias path..... till now we were balancing everything... now we can support the real zionists.. according to our interests


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## KS

Omar1984 said:


> Good to see Iran has finally woken up to the truth. India is very close to Israel while it says its a friend to Iran. While Pakistan doesn't even recognize Israel.



Thank you Omar.....thank you so much.

This is one partnership that is mutually beneficial to both the countries and I hope India and Israel take their alliance to a new level.

Again thank you for posting these wonderful pictures.


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Firstly, worst presentation of journalism by TOI, the newspaper just qouted view of an individual with whole state of *Iran*,which is totally BS.

Secondly, this is not a statment by MEA or GOI( Gov. of Iran ). So, this statment can't be termed as official stand of iranian Gov.(hence no need for india to reply).

Finally, as i said on a similar thread related on statment of this guy..!

*WHO CARES ?? HIS STATMENT GOING TO HAVE ANY IMPACT ON INDIA'S STAND??

The answer is "NO"*


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## INDIAN007

*UNSC hasn't discussed Kashmir in 45 yrs*

NEW DELHI: The "India-Pakistan question", which is a euphemism for the Kashmir question, was last discussed in the UN Security Council in 1965 having been first raised in 1948. Since then the Security Council has not discussed the issue.

Earlier this week, the Pakistan envoy to the UN, Amjad Sial, opened the lid on what is probably the worst kept secret in the UNSC -- that Kashmir as an issue has not been raised in the Council for almost half a century, even during the worst of India-Pakistan relations.

The Pakistan envoy protested in the General Assembly earlier this week that the Kashmir issue was "missing" from the UNSC annual list, describing it as an "inadvertent error." Indian diplomats maintained that it was not inadvertent at all, but that the Kashmir issue was a "dead letter".

Later, UNSC spokesperson Farhan Haq clarified that the annual list submitted to the General Assembly only published issues discussed in the Council from January 1, 2007, and that the full list of issues that had ever been discussed by the Council was in an addendum published in March 2010. That list, Haq said, includes Kashmir, which means Kashmir remains a "live" issue in the UNSC, unlike the Indian interpretation that it was a "dead letter".

However, the addendum in question, posted on March 8, 2010, lists "items which were identified in document S/2010/10 as subject to deletion in 2010 because they had not been considered by the Council at a formal meeting during the three-year period from 1 January 2007 to 31 December 2009". According to UNSC's own rules, these items would be removed from the list in 2010. Which, say, Indian officials, is what was done.

In 2005, the then UN secretary general, Kofi Annan, declared that the "plebiscite" issue could not be enforced or self-implemented. But it was after Annan's remarks, made in the context of the resumption of the India-Pakistan dialogue in 2005, that the UNSC dropped the reference to the dispute. In the past five years there has been no such mention.

UNSC hasn't discussed Kashmir in 45 yrs - The Times of India

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## Avatar

For what its worth, here is the annual report...I dont find any mention of the word "Kashmir" as a dispute or conflict. Click on the word annual report. It would appear that Kashmir is a dead issue from the UN's point of view. The index pages iv-vi, shows other disputes.

Annual Report of the Security Council | Center for UN Reform Education

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## Ammyy

It doesnt matter UN discuss it or not 

But one thing is sure neither UN nor any other country can mediate is this issue 

And one more thing no one have guts to do that... *So if Pakistan really want to solve this issue so they should stop supporting insurgency in J&K and start talk with India.... Otherwise*

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## INDIAN007

*Kashmir Is a Dead Issue*

UN has already stated That It is Internal issue of India - and pakistan should talk with India on the issue


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

UN hasen't discussed kashmir in 45 yrs and UN will not discuss it in future..


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## Pagla Dashu

I am still wondering, what was Mr Sial thinking? What could have possibly possessed him to scratch a dry wound open?

I am not complaining though. Its_ fultu_ entertainment.


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## flameboard

Out of context He was talking about supporting Muslims struggling in the world he mentioned Palestinians and Kashmiris as well. When he was talking about Palestine he mentioned the Zionist regime some hate monger took it out of context to spread hate go look at the original speech it will make a lot more sense. 

This thread should be deleted for spreading propaganda.

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## Markus

Forget Kashmir, lets just move on.

Let not one issue bind the relations down between two countries.


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## Rumporum

Just a question is there any member here who is currently there/actually in Kashmir in either the Pakistan side and the Indian side. What's your take on what's going.

I have been to Kashmir (Indian) and what really puzzled me to be honest is even then (this was 1 yrs ago) there was protesting stone throwing etc... But this was basically only in Srinagar and that too centred but more or less in the centre. Everywhere else was peaceful... there was a night curfew when I was there for 2 days and luckily nothing kicked off during the day when I was there. I went around Baramullah, Gulmarg etc.... and everything there seemed normal.

Hows the situation now is gone worse? Would appreciate a response from someone actually there and not hear say from others.


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## Capt.Popeye

INDIAN007 said:


> *UNSC hasn't discussed Kashmir in 45 yrs*
> 
> 
> In 2005, the then UN secretary general, Kofi Annan, declared that the "plebiscite" issue could not be enforced or self-implemented. But it was after Annan's remarks, made in the context of the resumption of the India-Pakistan dialogue in 2005, that the UNSC dropped the reference to the dispute. In the past five years there has been no such mention.



This, sums up UN's stance on Kashmir.


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## Vimana1

Im planning to go backpacking to India next year and wish to visit Amarnath Temple in Kashmir i would like to speak to locals there to see how is life also.


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## StingRoy

It is high time that people realize the UN resolution for plebiscite is not feasible anymore ... If it could have been done it should have been done then and there. Both India and Pakistan should realize this and settle this issue on the table between themselves... dragging this or trying to internationalize the issue does not help the cause for the Kashmiris and for the betterment of people of both the countries.


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## Icarus

I'm not from Kashmir but spent the time of 2002-03 tensions deployed against Indian forces in Kashmir. Does that count as something ?


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## Rumporum

Kakgeta said:


> I'm not from Kashmir but spent the time of 2002-03 tensions deployed against Indian forces in Kashmir. Does that count as something ?



Well just wanted to know how things are on the ground in Kashmir. Its a pretty volatile border isn't it with both sides opening fire occasionally on each other. Are you still in service?


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## Bhim

All areas are peaceful,except when millitants activity increases.
It was at its peak when UNSC seat issue was going on.
It follows a pattern, when ever a major Head of state visits or that there is to be UN deliberations.
So it is a cyclic phenomenon, and GOI has taken big steps in barricading the LOC to minimise the infilteration. 
The locals are fed up as well the businesses, there have been representations to carry out more forceful operations against the millitants. But what worries the GOI is the collateral damage.
If cross border terrorism is not stopped, then it might take a little longer for normalcy to come.


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## Icarus

Rumporum said:


> Well just wanted to know how things are on the ground in Kashmir. Its a pretty volatile border isn't it with both sides opening fire occupationally on each other. Are you still in service?



I'm not military, however the nature of my work keeps me with the military. So by that regard, yes I am still active.
As for the ground situation: It was pretty bad at the time, people's livelihoods were destroyed, many had to migrate, people lost homes and relatives since the Indians made little distinction between civilian and military targets. For them, every building on our side of the border belonged to the enemy but we had to be very careful to avoid civilian casualties to avoid losing respect with the Kashmiris. There were quite a few assassination attempts on officers, especially the commandant. Usually IEDs and Anti-tank mines. We also caught Indian spies who came to set up the IEDs and for recon. Most of them are with the ISI others we turned into double agents and they subsequently settled in Pakistan. If you had anything particular you would like to ask, you are more than welcome.........


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## Vimana1

Girls undergo arms training in J&K-News-Videos-The Times of India


Came across this the other day.


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## Icarus

Bhim said:


> All areas are peaceful,except when millitants activity increases.
> It was at its peak when UNSC seat issue was going on.
> It follows a pattern, when ever a major Head of state visits or that there is to be UN deliberations.
> So it is a cyclic phenomenon, and GOI has taken big steps in barricading the LOC to minimise the infilteration.
> The locals are fed up as well the businesses, there have been representations to carry out more forceful operations against the millitants. But what worries the GOI is the collateral damage.
> If cross border terrorism is not stopped, then it might take a little longer for normalcy to come.



There is no such thing as cross border terrorism(apart from very few special cases), that's just a lie that you govt feeds you to make up for their failure in ensuring peace in the region.


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## Vimana1

Kakgeta said:


> There is no such thing as cross border terrorism(apart from very few special cases), that's just a lie that you govt feeds you to make up for their failure in ensuring peace in the region.












Something which the Kashmiri people know is not true


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## Icarus

Vimana1 said:


> Girls undergo arms training in J&K-News-Videos-The Times of India
> 
> 
> Came across this the other day.



You think it's really that tough to fake a video ? I saw a video of "Muslim Pakistani ISI Atankwadis" on India Tv last year while(they were) training, and it was such a poor attempt at a fake. They had the Pakistani flag painted on their barrack, there were some in their training ground and there were some painted on trees on the path supposedly taken by them for being infiltrated into Indian !
And they didn't even look Pakistani !


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## StingRoy

^^ How do you define someone as looking Pakistani?


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## Vimana1

Kakgeta said:


> You think it's really that tough to fake a video ? I saw a video of "Muslim Pakistani ISI Atankwadis" on India Tv last year while(they were) training, and it was such a poor attempt at a fake. They had the Pakistani flag painted on their barrack, there were some in their training ground and there were some painted on trees on the path supposedly taken by them for being infiltrated into Indian !
> And they didn't even look Pakistani !




That video is not fake! she is a Kashmiri lol


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## Icarus

Vimana1 said:


> YouTube - NewsX Video: Brave Kashmiri girl kills militant
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Something which the Kashmiri people know is not true



Did that militant show the girl his Pakistani ID card before she killed him ? He could have very probably been an IOK based Kashmiri.

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## Vimana1

Kakgeta said:


> Did that militant show the girl his Pakistani ID card before she killed him ? He could have very probably been an IOK based Kashmiri.




Oh yeah that makes real sense her being from Srinagar and the Indian kashmiri militant who barges her house holding her hostage not knowing she is Kashmiri herself! he must be one dumb militant if you ask me or the other point of view is that these so called jihadis in Kashmir come from the Pakistani side and most are not Kashmiri but Punjabi Pakistani.


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## Icarus

dezi said:


> ^^ How do you define someone as looking Pakistani?



It's based on the same criteria that is used by Indian forces in judging whether a pigeon "coos'" like an Indian pigeon or not.......remember ?
Jokes aside, you can tell the difference, it's something in the body language, in many cases it's the features. For example Sikhs, Punjabis, Hariyanis and Rajhastanis look like Pakistanis of Punjab and Sindh but people from South India, East, North and Central India look completely different.


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## S_O_C_O_M

india is both imperialistic and a fascist state in practice. If not, why all the separatism and I am not just talking about kashmir but the rest of india.....

Just remember indians, if the western media ever decides to turn against you, they have enough crap about india to make drug lords look like angels.

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## The Clarifier

Won't do anything...

But me like


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

S_O_C_O_M said:


> india is both imperialistic and a fascist state in practice. If not, why all the separatism and I am not just talking about kashmir but the rest of india.....
> 
> Just remember indians, if the western media ever decides to turn against you, they have enough crap about india to make drug lords look like angels.



I can say the same about pakistan,didn't I ?? 

well watever, best of luck


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## Icarus

Vimana1 said:


> Oh yeah that makes real sense her being from Srinagar and the Indian kashmiri militant who barges her house holding her hostage not knowing she is Kashmiri herself! he must be one dumb militant if you ask me or the other point of view is that these so called jihadis in Kashmir come from the Pakistani side and most are not Kashmiri but Punjabi Pakistani.



Wow ! You know a lot about the LoC by living in Germany, my friend I was stationed there. It's impossible to get across except with the help of very few bridges jointly controlled by Indian/Pakistani forces. Between India and Pakistan there is a 80-110 feet deep gorge through which the river Jhelum or Neelum(for the other valley) move with white water velocity. Then of course there is the 80-110 climb back up again to the Indian side followed by razor wire, mine fields, fences, border posts and sentry patrols with dogs. If the militants STILL manage to get across from Punjab(as you say) to kashmir, then you might as well have no military because they must be doing a terrible job at guarding the border.


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## The Clarifier

Socom stop it bro.

Indians also control yourself.

I don't know Iran's motives but if they need to move closer to Pakistan it is largely welcome.

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## Vimana1

Kakgeta said:


> Wow ! You know a lot about the LoC by living in Germany, my friend I was stationed there. It's impossible to get across except with the help of very few bridges jointly controlled by Indian/Pakistani forces. Between India and Pakistan there is a 80-110 feet deep gorge through which the river Jhelum or Neelum(for the other valley) move with white water velocity. Then of course there is the 80-110 climb back up again to the Indian side followed by razor wire, mine fields, fences, border posts and sentry patrols with dogs. If the militants STILL manage to get across from Punjab(as you say) to kashmir, then you might as well have no military because they must be doing a terrible job at guarding the border.




The LOC can easily be crossed it is a porous border just ask your General Musharraf although detecting infiltration has improved due to ground sensors.


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## Icarus

Vimana1 said:


> The LOC can easily be crossed it is a porous border just ask your General Musharraf although detecting infiltration has improved due to ground sensors.
> 
> YouTube - Pervez Musharraf with Barkha Dutt--- About Latest Controversy on Kashmir Issue



It is, like I said we caught Indian spies too, but even they couldn't cross on a daily basis and in large numbers.
You need help getting across, as Indian spies had Indian help.
Let's suppose the insurgents have Pakistani help but if Indians can't intercept them in the numbers they are rumoured to cross in(hundreds at at time) in form of "battalions" then I must say, it is quite shameful form the IA.


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## Vimana1

Kakgeta said:


> It is, like I said we caught Indian spies too, but even they couldn't cross on a daily basis and in large numbers.
> But you need help getting across, as Indian spies had Indian help.
> Let's suppose the insurgents have Pakistani help but if Indians can't intercept them in the numbers they are rumoured to cross in(hundreds at at time) in form of "battalions" then I must say, it is quite shameful form the IA.




I would not say hundreds most likely a few of them cross at one time joined by other teams makes more sense doing it this covert way. I just saw a intresting video from BBC showing the Pakistan side of Kashmir and how life is there it is worth watching.


BBC News - Kashmiri militant groups still recruiting in Pakistan


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## Vimana1

troll? all i said was this is not the official position of the Iranian people or its goverment and this person has fatwas on everything some may even consider ridiculous


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## Rumporum

Rephrased

So basically is here who is actually now in Pakistan Kashmir or Indian Kashmir.... as we are getting into some completely other topic.


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## Hindustani

My father's side of the family is from Udhampur, Jammu (India)

And my mother's side is from Amritsar, Punjab.. (India)

However I was born in L.A. and moved to Vegas a few years ago.


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## Rumporum

Rephrased

So basically is/are there some member who is/are actually in Pakistan Kashmir or Indian Kashmir now.... as we are getting into some completely other topic.


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## subject17

Mods please close the thread, it's a goddamn TOI. The thread is running nowhere.


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## Patriotic_Pakistani

Iran has a double faced policy so i wouldnt trust it at all


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Patriotic_Pakistani said:


> Iran has a double faced policy so i wouldnt trust it at all



You don't need to trust this cause this is not official stand of iranian goverment


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## sensenreason

B_R_I_C said:


> You don't need to trust this cause this is not official stand of iranian goverment



I have a question to all....

Whats better? Is it better to have overt support say from US that they consider Pakistan as a terrorist state or that they consider it so but wont say it publically.

Im no diplomat.But I feel that nothing beats open and vocal statement of position.If thats not forthcoming, it means one of the two parties involved has a public image internally or externally at variance with reality and therefore is in some ways a totalitarian regime or a country with identity issues.

My take is if Iran as an example comes and tells Indians in private that their position is different from the Khominei statement but doesnt openly say so...means its relationship mwith its own people has some amount propaganda built in....

Another example is Kargil where Pakistan Govt might tell its people one thing and in private might discuss things with other countries differently.Or Indian Govt saying that it has China's support for UNSC permanent seat based on 'overt' Chinese support which we all know is diplomatic speech.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Iranian leader asks Muslims to back Kashmir struggle​* 
2010-11-19 13:50:00 


Tehran, Nov 19 (IANS) Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has appealed to Muslims to back the separatist campaign in Jammu and Kashmir, equating the Indian state with the 'nations' of Afghanistan and Iraq. 

'Today the major duties of the elite of the Islamic Ummah is to provide help to the Palestinian nation and the besieged people of Gaza, to sympathize and provide assistance to the nations of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and Kashmir, to engage in struggle and resistance against the aggressions of the United States and the Zionist regime,' Khamenei said in a message to Haj pilgrims. 

IRNA news agency also quoted him as saying that Muslims should be united and 'spread awakening and a sense of responsibility and commitment among Muslim youth throughout Islamic communities'. 

The Iranian leader, who wields enormous influence on the Iranian state, said 'the expanding wave of Islamic awakening in the world today is a reality that heralds a bright future for the Islamic Ummah'. 

The thrust of his speech made this week was directed at Israel and the US. But he also made a veiled reference to Pakistan's nuclear programme. 

'The US and the West are no more the unquestionable decision-makers of the Middle East they were two decades ago. Contrary to the situation 10 years ago, the nuclear know-how and other complex technologies are no longer considered inaccessible daydreams for Muslim nations of the region.' 

He said the US was bogged down in Afghanistan and 'is hated more than ever before in disaster-stricken Pakistan'. 

Referring to what he said was a 'hopeful and promising situation' for the Muslim world, Khamenei said that 'past lessons and experience should make us more vigilant than ever before'. 

A former president of Iran (1981-89), Khamenei succeeded Ayatollah Khomeini as the spiritual head of the Iranian people. 

A staunch supporter of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Khamenei is said to influence Iran's foreign policy. 

According to Kashmir activist Ghulam Ali Gulzar, Khamenei visited Jammu and Kashmir in the early 1980s and delivered a sermon at Srinagar's Jama Masjid. 

*'At every Friday prayer in Tehran University, whenever there is talk about Palestine, Kashmir is also mentioned and prayers offered,' Gulzar said in published remarks. *

Iranian leader asks Muslims to back Kashmir struggle

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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

sensenreason said:


> I have a question to all....
> 
> Whats better? Is it better to have overt support say from US that they consider Pakistan as a terrorist state or that they consider it so but wont say it publically.
> 
> Im no diplomat.But I feel that nothing beats open and vocal statement of position.If thats not forthcoming, it means one of the two parties involved has a public image internally or externally at variance with reality and therefore is in some ways a totalitarian regime or a country with identity issues.
> 
> My take is if Iran as an example comes and tells Indians in private that their position is different from the Khominei statement but doesnt openly say so...means its relationship mwith its own people has some amount propaganda built in....
> 
> Another example is Kargil where Pakistan Govt might tell its people one thing and in private might discuss things with other countries differently.Or Indian Govt saying that it has China's support for UNSC permanent seat based on 'overt' Chinese support which we all know is diplomatic speech.



So your point is.....??


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *Iranian leader asks Muslims to back Kashmir struggle​*
> 2010-11-19 13:50:00
> 
> 
> Tehran, Nov 19 (IANS) Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has appealed to Muslims to back the separatist campaign in Jammu and Kashmir, equating the Indian state with the 'nations' of Afghanistan and Iraq.
> 
> 'Today the major duties of the elite of the Islamic Ummah is to provide help to the Palestinian nation and the besieged people of Gaza, to sympathize and provide assistance to the nations of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and Kashmir, to engage in struggle and resistance against the aggressions of the United States and the Zionist regime,' Khamenei said in a message to Haj pilgrims.
> 
> IRNA news agency also quoted him as saying that Muslims should be united and 'spread awakening and a sense of responsibility and commitment among Muslim youth throughout Islamic communities'.
> 
> The Iranian leader, who wields enormous influence on the Iranian state, said 'the expanding wave of Islamic awakening in the world today is a reality that heralds a bright future for the Islamic Ummah'.
> 
> The thrust of his speech made this week was directed at Israel and the US. But he also made a veiled reference to Pakistan's nuclear programme.
> 
> 'The US and the West are no more the unquestionable decision-makers of the Middle East they were two decades ago. Contrary to the situation 10 years ago, the nuclear know-how and other complex technologies are no longer considered inaccessible daydreams for Muslim nations of the region.'
> 
> He said the US was bogged down in Afghanistan and 'is hated more than ever before in disaster-stricken Pakistan'.
> 
> Referring to what he said was a 'hopeful and promising situation' for the Muslim world, Khamenei said that 'past lessons and experience should make us more vigilant than ever before'.
> 
> A former president of Iran (1981-89), Khamenei succeeded Ayatollah Khomeini as the spiritual head of the Iranian people.
> 
> A staunch supporter of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Khamenei is said to influence Iran's foreign policy.
> 
> According to Kashmir activist Ghulam Ali Gulzar, Khamenei visited Jammu and Kashmir in the early 1980s and delivered a sermon at Srinagar's Jama Masjid.
> 
> *'At every Friday prayer in Tehran University, whenever there is talk about Palestine, Kashmir is also mentioned and prayers offered,' Gulzar said in published remarks. *
> 
> Iranian leader asks Muslims to back Kashmir struggle




Errrrrrr, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is not official spokes person of there goverment neither he is external affairs minister of iran. So, he can;t talk on behalf of Gov or there foriegn policy.



Even if iran comes out openly supporting the sepratists, even then it dosen't matter ,they will just give a "nice" excuse to goverment of india for supporting the *Sanctions on iran* which india did'nt support till now..

Other then this.... nothing is important.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Khomeini is half Kashmiri*



> Few contest that Khomeinis mother was a Kashmiri.




Who is the Ayatollah Khomeini?


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## Awesome

Will have to give appreciation where due and Pakistan thanks Iran for this.

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## Spring Onion

Clear statement on Indian invasion of country of Kashmir coming from a popular public leader of Iran is welcomed and a good sign.


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## bandmaster

Omar1984 said:


> China will not turn its back on Iran.
> 
> China needs Iran for oil and gas, and Iran needs China.
> 
> China will not jeopardize its relations with Iran for the west.




China needs oil. period. There is nothing special about "Irani oil". 
Additionally, China would rather not get it's oil from Iran. Just like the rest of the world. 

Gas should be kept separate from oil. The medium term trend of gas prices is downwards. There is going to be excess supply upto 2020 and more is going to come online. Nobody is planning to buy oil-price linked gas from the middle-east, except Pakistan.


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## The Clarifier

Easier to understand: China need oil. Iran give oil.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Have people noticed that the Imam of Kaaba didnt mentioned Kashmir in his Sermon, He only pledeged help for the people in Iraq,Palestine and Afghanistan. And now Iranians are supporting the Kashmir cause. 

Can we call it a Realignment of Pakistan...!!


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## somebozo

Iran may be close to India for commerce and material gains but that doesn't make the supreme leaders blind..India is the part of Zionist anti-Muslim alliance especially since Indians have given in to Israeli pressure of boycotting Iran which exposes their true face. 

Iran and Pakistan may have tensions but in the long term it is only viable partnership due to closer religious and cultural links!


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## humanfirst

somebozo said:


> Iran may be close to India for commerce and material gains but that doesn't make the supreme leaders blind..India is the part of Zionist anti-Muslim alliance especially since Indians have given in to Israeli pressure of boycotting Iran which exposes their true face.
> 
> Iran and Pakistan may have tensions but in the long term it is only viable partnership due to closer religious and cultural links!



Anti muslim alliance..lol.It is spineless tactic of some pakistanis to term anything anti pakistani as anti muslim so that they can gain more support.China also supported sanctions to iran and agreed to block tech transfer.Will you call china anti muslim for that?No..you guys wont even condemn that decision.But when india does,it will become anti muslim.In the thread which was discussing about ughuir children in china not allowed to enter mosques your reply was ughuirs are not real muslims!This attitude of selectively bringing religion wherever it suits you is disgusting.India have good relation with arabs, iranians(although arabs and iranians have supported pakistan in almost every war with us) and israel as per our national interests and unlike you,we dont selectively bring religion in foreign relations.

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## justanobserver

Abii said:


> Persians developed the script alongside the arabs genius!
> btw, the Persian alphabet has 4 extra letters and some of the similar letters are used differently. Arabs also use accents while we don't.



Perso-Arabic script - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> The Perso-Arabic script is a writing system that is originally based on the *Arabic alphabet*. Originally used *exclusively* for the Arabic language, the Arabic script was *modified* to match the Persian language, adding four letters: &#1662; [p], &#1670; [t&#643;], &#1688; [&#658;], and &#1711; [&#609;]. Many languages which use the Perso-Arabic script add other letters.




Basically Arabs replaced your original script (Avestan) and added some extra letters to accommodate the Persian language

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## CaptainJackSparrow

This is interesting. It is only now that we have started to emerge as an economic power but the UN has neglected Kashmir for over 45 years and Kofi Annan has even expressed his unwillingness over the issue of plebiscite.

Speaks truckloads about the dead dodo of Kashmir.


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## Gandhi G in da house

black_magic pk said:


> is he the say guy named NIMA????????? with his usual racist BS shitt??



I was actually thinking the same thing . He has come with a changed name.


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## The Clarifier

Abii said:


> seems like you do or you wouldn't be in this thread commenting
> 
> You Hindus are acting like Iran owes you something!!!



Calm down.

Why the hate against arabs? 

Nobody said you're arab. All I believe is that Iran has a rich Islamic history and Islam does not equate Arab.


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## subject17

*Iran's Kashmir remarks upset India*

New Delhi: In a move that could further strain friendly ties India has lodged a strong protest over Iran supreme leader Ayatollah Khamenei's remarks describing Kashmir as one of the world's beseiged regions, along with Gaza and Afghanistan.

India has issued a demarche to Iran over these remarks.

Government sources say they are deeply disturbed with the comments on the 15th where Khamenei spoke of 'besieged Gaza, Afghanistan and Kashmir.'

Sources say 'Iran has questioned India's territorial integrity and sovereignty' in response.

India abstained from voting on a UN resolution criticising Iran's human rights record.


Read more at: Iran's Kashmir remarks upset India

-------------

Indian govt took thing seriously, lets see where it goes.


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## Vajra_Yuddh

Abii said:


> Persians developed the script alongside the arabs genius!
> btw, the Persian alphabet has 4 extra letters and some of the similar letters are used differently. Arabs also use accents while we don't.
> 
> And anyways, it's like saying English and Turkish and Russian are the same because of their scripts lmao!!
> You Hindus come up with weird ****.


I am sorry? Alongside? Sorry Mr. Persian about your false facts but if you remember *genuinely*, your script was never what you have today. It was always Avestan until the time Arabs conquered you and send your Zoroastrian ancestors out of their own homeland. 

That way even Divehi (Maldivian) script has something "from Arabic" script. But the reality is, along with your ancient way of life, your script was also booted out of Iran, removed from its supreme status to a vassal state a secondary state in your own country, and your leaders tell you that you "developed the script alongside Arabs" and that they are proud of of their "ancestry"?

As I said; Zoroastrians form one of the largest collective communities of their kind in India today. We aren't so ignorant of Persian history either. 

If you take a look at this, I am sure you will see that except right to left, there's very little similarity in your original script and what you were made to believe your "co-development" was:


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## Dance

I love the comment section...serious Muslim and Pakistan bashing going on

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## Spring Onion

BENNY said:


> its just a publicity stunt.. we know how long it lasts.. dont we.??



As if Iranian spiritual leaders ever banked on word Bharat aka India for publicity stunt


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## Spring Onion

B_R_I_C said:


> You don't need to trust this cause this is not official stand of iranian goverment



Opsssssss but seems Indian govt is not listening to you because it has trusted it and had called Iranian envoy for protest .

damn GoI takes orange media seriously when even bharatiya members here are saying its crap


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## Spring Onion

subject17 said:


> *Iran's Kashmir remarks upset India*
> 
> New Delhi: In a move that could further strain friendly ties India has lodged a strong protest over Iran supreme leader Ayatollah Khamenei's remarks describing Kashmir as one of the world's beseiged regions, along with Gaza and Afghanistan.
> 
> India has issued a demarche to Iran over these remarks.
> 
> *Government sources say they are deeply disturbed with the comments on the 15th where Khamenei spoke of 'besieged Gaza, Afghanistan and Kashmir.'
> *
> Sources say 'Iran has questioned India's territorial integrity and sovereignty' in response.
> 
> India abstained from voting on a UN resolution criticising Iran's human rights record.
> 
> 
> Read more at: Iran's Kashmir remarks upset India
> 
> -------------
> 
> Indian govt took thing seriously, lets see where it goes.



ahhh but a while back i mean few hours back a bharatiya was saying who gives a shyt to this statement in India


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## GentlemanObserver

Dance said:


> I love the comment section...serious Muslim and Pakistan bashing going on



That's the only reason i ever goto Skynews.com to read all the anti Pakistani and anti Islam comments left by brain-dead halfwits.

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## Spring Onion

Paladin said:


> That's the only reason i ever goto Skynews.com to read all the anti Pakistani and anti Islam comments left by brain-dead halfwits.



  and i often laugh that they themselves give tension to themselves


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## mehru

Jana said:


> ahhh but a while back i mean few hours back a bharatiya was saying who gives a shyt to this statement in India



Funny situation. It was not even an official statement but they are constantly dubbing it as an act of Iranian Govt. In my opinion, India is reacting in haste and they might end up damaging their relations with Iran. Kudos to their media!


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## India Rising

India summons Iranian envoy over Kashmir remarks

NEW DELHI: India on Friday summoned the Iranian charge d' affaires and conveyed its "deep disappointment" over comments on Kashmir emanating from Tehran. 

"We have conveyed to the Iranian authorities our deep disappointment and regret that they have chosen to disregard our sensitivities and chosen to question our territorial sovereignty," a government source said. 

The government reaction came to the message of Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei to Haj pilgrims in which he has appealed to the Muslim elite worldwide to back the "struggle" in Jammu and Kashmir, equating the state with the "nations" of Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan. 

External affairs ministry's Joint Secretary Y.K. Sinha summoned the Iranian charge d' affaires to his office Friday and conveyed the Indian government's sentiments, said sources. 

It was pointed out this was not the first time. Khamenei had made a similar statement in July this year.

Read more: India summons Iranian envoy over Kashmir remarks - The Times of India India summons Iranian envoy over Kashmir remarks - The Times of India


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## Gandhi G in da house

Dissapointed but hardly a diplomatic shock . wont make any difference .

just makes us know better who our real friends are.

However , i am still waiting for the iranian official response.


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## Gandhi G in da house

mehru said:


> Funny situation. It was not even an official statement but they are constantly dubbing it as an act of Iranian Govt. In my opinion, India is reacting in haste and they might end up damaging their relations with Iran. Kudos to their media!



The man is the supreme leader of Iran who is supposed to be more powerful than the government .

It means something .

however , we should wait for the official response.


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## mehru

nick_indian said:


> The man is the supreme leader of Iran who is supposed to be more powerful than the government .
> 
> It means something .
> 
> *however , we should wait for the official response.*



No doubt he is powerful but official statement will matter in the end.


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## TOPGUN

It means alot dum dum's lolz what are indians in another world lolz read what has been said yes it should show you who your real friends are and how many you got out there.


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## PAKFA

What matter We have faced a situation when all four members of UNSC except Russia were against us on this issue when we were not even able to afford food. No one is going to take back Kashmir from us even in a situation when we are second largest growing economy today. Only loss here for us is these statements are coming from a friendly nation and that from a political leader not the govt.


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## Gandhi G in da house

TOPGUN said:


> It means alot dum dum's lolz what are indians in another world lolz read what has been said yes it should show you who your real friends are and how many you got out there.



we have 1/6 th of world's humanity . we dont need any more support.

whatever friends we have are just bonus.

Plus countries that matter are with us( not that we really need them).


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## Aatishbaz

PAKFA said:


> What matter We have faced a situation when all four members of UNSC except Russia were against us on this issue when we were not even able to afford food. No one is going to take back Kashmir from us even in a situation when we are second largest growing economy today. Only loss here for us is these statements are coming from a friendly nation and that from a political leader not the govt.



Well I beg to differ here sir, not because some Iranian has given a statement that has some far reaching impact on the present day situation in Kashmir, but because it may prove the first drop of rain. As we all know whats happening in Kashmir right now and luckily it doesnt have to do anything with Pakistan this time..its all indigenous. As far as Iranians are concerned I know that they are Indian friends. Many of this forum's members might not know that Iran was the first gulf country to enter into a strategic agreement with India to provide all maintenance and refit services for its submarines in 1980s. The step was infact aimed at strengthening any sea blockade against Pakistan and of course to ensure continuity of India's goodwill during Iran-Iraq war. So Iran only does which suits its national interest. Pakistan is lucky to have its neighbors like India, Iran and Afghanistan.


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## Vimana1

It's all about supply and demand, Iran needs $ and India needs Oil and gas which can be met by Iran its simples.


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## Security

I hail Khamenei's statement on Kashmir and in fact every Pakistani will support his statement. *We are thankful to Khamenei for his remarks on Kashmir struggle. 
*

I hope it will bring Iran and Pakistan more closer. Long Live Pak-Iran friendship.

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## S_O_C_O_M

*India disallowed Hurriyat leaders to lead Eid Prayers ​*
Friday, 19 November 2010 14:42 







Srinagar, November 19, 2010: The Chairman of All Parties Hurriyat Conference, Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Mirwaiz Umar Farooq have castigated Indian authorities for disallowing them to lead Eid-ul-Azha and Juma prayers, describing the action as a blatant infringement of peoples religious rights.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani in his statement appealed to the international community to take cognizance of the state repression in the occupied territory. He said that the resolution of Jammu and Kashmir dispute was the only way for achieving a lasting peace in south Asia. Syed Ali Shah Geelani condemned the recent arrests of his party activists.

The APHC Chairman said, in an interview, for the first time in 250 years, ever since the institution of the Mirwaiz was created in Kashmir, the authorities did not allow Mirwaiz to lead prayers in Srinagar.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Mirwaiz Umer Farooq were among the leaders who were placed under house arrest on the Eid day and the Indian authorities continued to confine them to their residences in Srinagar, today.





Mirwaiz Umer Farooq pointed out that not allowing him to lead the prayers is an extreme step by the authorities, however, such tactics would not cow down the people of Kashmir. We will continue, he added, our struggle for a lasting solution to the Kashmir dispute.

APHC leader, Agha Syed Hassan Almoosvi in a media interview while condemning the continued house arrest of Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Mirwiaz Umar Farooq urged India to shun its rigid policies on Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK) and come forward to resolve the Kashmir dispute through meaningful tripartite dialogue process.

People observed Eid ul Azha, on Wednesday, with traditional zeal and religious fervour, reaffirming their resolve to continue liberation struggle till it reaches its logical conclusion.

Thousands of Muslims offered Eid prayers and the largest congregations were held at Hazratbal, Eidgah and TRC ground in Srinagar. However, people held pro-liberation demonstrations at several places in Srinagar, Ganderbal, Budgam, Sopore, Seelu, Palhalan, Baramulla, Delina, Handwara, Trehgam, Bandipore, Hajin and Sumbal.

The APHC Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Mirwaiz Umer Farooq, Shabbir Ahmad Shah and Nayeem Ahmad Khan could not offer Eid prayers as the authorities had placed them under house arrest.

Meanwhile, two Indian police personnel were found dead in mysterious circumstances, one of them in a hotel in Jammu and the other in a restaurant in Kathua.

The Executive Director of Kashmir Centre London, Prof Nazir Ahmed Shawl has strongly condemned the continued house arrest of APHC leaders Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Mirwaiz Umar Farooq.

Shawl in a statement said the puppet administration in Srinagar, who prevented APHC leaders including Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Mirwiaz Umer Farooq, Shabbir Ahmed Shah and Nayeem Ahmed Khan to offer their Eid prayers on Wednesday is an intervention in ones religious freedom.

He said people in the occupied territory were not only being denied political rights by India, but they were also being prevented from performing their religious obligations. This unjustified act cannot defeat the determination of the people of Occupied State of Jammu and Kashmir (OSJK) who are struggling for right of Self-Determination, despite all odds, shawl added. 

Shawl appealed to the International community and human rights organizations to take notice of continued violations in OSJK.

The Amnesty International has urged the Indian authorities in Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK) to release a 14-year-old child who has been detained without charge or trial under draconian law in April this year during anti-India protests.

In a statement, Amnesty Internationals Asia-Pacific Director, Sam Zarafi said, the arrested child should be treated in accordance with International laws on child rights. 14-year-old, Mushtaq Ahmad Sheikh who was firstly arrested on April 9, 2010 was released on bail after eight days in custody and was re-arrested on 21 April during the ongoing "Quit Kashmir movement (QKM)" in Srinagar. The illegally detained child is now held at Kot Bhalwal Jail in Jammu.

"Mushtaq Ahmad Sheikh must either be charged with a recognizable criminal offence or released immediately. If he is charged, he should be treated in accordance with the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, held and tried in special facilities for children, the statement added.

According to Amnesty International, this year, at least 322 people including children are reported to have been arrested by police and paramilitary forces without trial under the black law.

India disallowed Hurriyat leaders to lead Eid Prayers


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## Vimana1

This geelani needs to be behind bars.


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## BATMAN

I believe col. prohit and moodi needds to be hanged.

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## Karachiite

I hope they put Geelani behind bars because if they do then he will become another Nelson Mandela and it will spark outrage in Indian Occupied Kashmir.


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Aashiq said:


> I hope they put Geelani behind bars because if they do then he will become another Nelson Mandela and it will spark outrage in Indian Occupied Kashmir.



He was in house arrest earlier, and i hope your wish will come true very soon... thxx for concern ,i appreciate that


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

BATMAN said:


> I believe col. prohit and moodi needds to be hanged.



what about masood azhar, zaki ur rehman lakhvi, dawood ibrahim,, ajmal kasab???? and list is endless,,,,what about them??

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## flameboard

Its a lie not even worth talking about, I don't think there was even the mention of India in his speech only Kashmir Iraq Afghanistan and Gaza.  Someone's obviously got an agenda, yes India was angry that Iran was talking about Kashmir and thats it no Zionist comment was attributed to India. People on this forum can be really stupid sometimes


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## Hindutvadi

Ok...But what does the picture u posted has to do anything with the topic? Is she crying coz Hurriyat leaders were not allowed to lead Eid Prayers?


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## The Clarifier

inb4someonesays'ohnoitsmarkthetruth'.
--------------------------------------------------

This act could provoke the general Kashmiri public


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

What else can we expect from the the world's largest hypocrosy?


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## The Clarifier

Azad Kashmir said:


> What else can we expect from the the world's largest hypocrosy?



Hello Policy.

Nice article 

eHurriyat returns

PS. Check your ingame PM


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## Bhim

The great leader of Iran has said to unite for-
Iraq.. A country they fought for years.
Afghanistan... A country they say drugs are coming from.
Pakistan... A country they say are against Shia.


Also Iraq is in turmoil, Afghanistan is in turmoil.
But is Pakistan also in that category??


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## wali87

Yet they call themselves the Largest Democracy... Their biggest problem as a nation is that they Do not want accept the sovereignity of the their neighbour states.. and their Gov keeps them behind a veil of ignorance.. 

If India is so sure that the people of Kashmir want to be a part of India.. Why do they have to station more than half of their army in Kashmir alone? Insecurity is what India suffers from.. Not ready to accept the ground reality that the people of Kashmir Hate India.. They have always Hated India.. they never will want to be a part of India.. 

Stopping political leaders to lead Eid prayers? goes against the fundamental principle of a Democracy doesnt it.. Blocking the freedom of speech .. freedom of movement.. Yet they call themselves the largest Democracy and dream about becoming a permanent member of the UN security council.. Its almost a joke considering they have dishonored all the security council's resolution regarding Kashmir.. 

Pakistan's stance on Kashmir is that the want the people of Kashmir to decide for themselves.. they want to liberate the people of Kashmir rather than forcefully making them become a part of Pakistan.. On the other hand.. India does not want to even SPEAK about Kashmir or even come to table... because they know they can't substantiate their claims over Kashmir.. Sad how the SO called largest democracy wouldn't allow a simple political person to practice Polity on his own soil.

India, the world's Largest hypocrisy. accept what the people of Kashmir want... and put an end to the hostilities between PAK-IND .. trust me you wont even need to spend billions of dollars to fund your armies.. And the people of Kashmir will love u for it.. 

The more you suppress them the more they'll chant this slogan.

For you may take away our lives! But you may never take away our Freedom!!!


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

source:markthetruth


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## Abii

lmao I love this comment

"Iran's leader's should be focusing on their country on *providing basic necessities like food and shelter to their people* and not spending money on developing nuclear weapons. India should not be upset as some aged religious crackheads talking about Kashmir as disputed region when UN itself had got rid of Kashmir from the list of disputed regions."



Iran's per capita GDP is higher than Turkey and its HDI (Human Development Index ranking) is 70. Iran moved up 18 places from 2009!! It's been in the top 5 movers for years now while India is in the hundreds. By 2015 there is a high chance that Iran will become a developed country. 

lol at these Indians! What are they teaching them over there? 
actually nvm, they don't even have toilets so you can't expect much from them. 

btw, their country is poorer than African countries but they spend a **** load of money on weapons and that guy has a nerve to say **** like that.


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## KS

Abii said:


> lmao I love this comment
> 
> "Iran's leader's should be focusing on their country on *providing basic necessities like food and shelter to their people* and not spending money on developing nuclear weapons. India should not be upset as some aged religious crackheads talking about Kashmir as disputed region when UN itself had got rid of Kashmir from the list of disputed regions."
> 
> 
> 
> Iran's per capita GDP is higher than Turkey and its HDI (Human Development Index ranking) is 70. Iran moved up 18 places from 2009!! It's been in the top 5 movers for years now while India is in the hundreds. By 2015 there is a high chance that Iran will become a developed country.
> 
> lol at these Indians! What are they teaching them over there?
> actually nvm, they don't even have toilets so you can't expect much from them.
> 
> btw, their country is poorer than African countries but they spend a **** load of money on weapons and that guy has a nerve to say **** like that.



Why is this racist double id ---- Abii aka Nima ---- still here....?? Mods


----------



## Evil Flare

nick_indian said:


> Dissapointed but hardly a diplomatic shock . wont make any difference .
> 
> just makes us know better who our real friends are.



Who back stabbed the Iran first ?


----------



## S3xy B0y

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *India disallowed Hurriyat leaders to lead Eid Prayers ​*
> Friday, 19 November 2010 14:42
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Srinagar, November 19, 2010: The Chairman of All Parties Hurriyat Conference, Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Mirwaiz Umar Farooq have castigated Indian authorities for disallowing them to lead Eid-ul-Azha and Juma prayers, describing the action as a blatant infringement of peoples religious rights.
> 
> Syed Ali Shah Geelani in his statement appealed to the international community to take cognizance of the state repression in the occupied territory. He said that the resolution of Jammu and Kashmir dispute was the only way for achieving a lasting peace in south Asia. Syed Ali Shah Geelani condemned the recent arrests of his party activists.
> 
> The APHC Chairman said, in an interview, for the first time in 250 years, ever since the institution of the Mirwaiz was created in Kashmir, the authorities did not allow Mirwaiz to lead prayers in Srinagar.
> 
> Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Mirwaiz Umer Farooq were among the leaders who were placed under house arrest on the Eid day and the Indian authorities continued to confine them to their residences in Srinagar, today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mirwaiz Umer Farooq pointed out that not allowing him to lead the prayers is an extreme step by the authorities, however, such tactics would not cow down the people of Kashmir. We will continue, he added, our struggle for a lasting solution to the Kashmir dispute.
> 
> APHC leader, Agha Syed Hassan Almoosvi in a media interview while condemning the continued house arrest of Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Mirwiaz Umar Farooq urged India to shun its rigid policies on Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK) and come forward to resolve the Kashmir dispute through meaningful tripartite dialogue process.
> 
> People observed Eid ul Azha, on Wednesday, with traditional zeal and religious fervour, reaffirming their resolve to continue liberation struggle till it reaches its logical conclusion.
> 
> Thousands of Muslims offered Eid prayers and the largest congregations were held at Hazratbal, Eidgah and TRC ground in Srinagar. However, people held pro-liberation demonstrations at several places in Srinagar, Ganderbal, Budgam, Sopore, Seelu, Palhalan, Baramulla, Delina, Handwara, Trehgam, Bandipore, Hajin and Sumbal.
> 
> The APHC Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Mirwaiz Umer Farooq, Shabbir Ahmad Shah and Nayeem Ahmad Khan could not offer Eid prayers as the authorities had placed them under house arrest.
> 
> Meanwhile, two Indian police personnel were found dead in mysterious circumstances, one of them in a hotel in Jammu and the other in a restaurant in Kathua.
> 
> The Executive Director of Kashmir Centre London, Prof Nazir Ahmed Shawl has strongly condemned the continued house arrest of APHC leaders Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Mirwaiz Umar Farooq.
> 
> Shawl in a statement said the puppet administration in Srinagar, who prevented APHC leaders including Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Mirwiaz Umer Farooq, Shabbir Ahmed Shah and Nayeem Ahmed Khan to offer their Eid prayers on Wednesday is an intervention in ones religious freedom.
> 
> He said people in the occupied territory were not only being denied political rights by India, but they were also being prevented from performing their religious obligations. This unjustified act cannot defeat the determination of the people of Occupied State of Jammu and Kashmir (OSJK) who are struggling for right of Self-Determination, despite all odds, shawl added.
> 
> Shawl appealed to the International community and human rights organizations to take notice of continued violations in OSJK.
> 
> The Amnesty International has urged the Indian authorities in Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK) to release a 14-year-old child who has been detained without charge or trial under draconian law in April this year during anti-India protests.
> 
> In a statement, Amnesty Internationals Asia-Pacific Director, Sam Zarafi said, the arrested child should be treated in accordance with International laws on child rights. 14-year-old, Mushtaq Ahmad Sheikh who was firstly arrested on April 9, 2010 was released on bail after eight days in custody and was re-arrested on 21 April during the ongoing "Quit Kashmir movement (QKM)" in Srinagar. The illegally detained child is now held at Kot Bhalwal Jail in Jammu.
> 
> "Mushtaq Ahmad Sheikh must either be charged with a recognizable criminal offence or released immediately. If he is charged, he should be treated in accordance with the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, held and tried in special facilities for children, the statement added.
> 
> According to Amnesty International, this year, at least 322 people including children are reported to have been arrested by police and paramilitary forces without trial under the black law.
> 
> India disallowed Hurriyat leaders to lead Eid Prayers



We need a better and a more credible source than "markthetruth".


----------



## S3xy B0y

wali87 said:


> Yet they call themselves the Largest Democracy... Their biggest problem as a nation is that they Do not want accept the sovereignity of the their neighbour states.. and their Gov keeps them behind a veil of ignorance..
> 
> If India is so sure that the people of Kashmir want to be a part of India.. Why do they have to station more than half of their army in Kashmir alone? Insecurity is what India suffers from.. Not ready to accept the ground reality that the people of Kashmir Hate India.. They have always Hated India.. they never will want to be a part of India..
> 
> Stopping political leaders to lead Eid prayers? goes against the fundamental principle of a Democracy doesnt it.. Blocking the freedom of speech .. freedom of movement.. Yet they call themselves the largest Democracy and dream about becoming a permanent member of the UN security council.. Its almost a joke considering they have dishonored all the security council's resolution regarding Kashmir..
> 
> Pakistan's stance on Kashmir is that the want the people of Kashmir to decide for themselves.. they want to liberate the people of Kashmir rather than forcefully making them become a part of Pakistan.. On the other hand.. India does not want to even SPEAK about Kashmir or even come to table... because they know they can't substantiate their claims over Kashmir.. Sad how the SO called largest democracy wouldn't allow a simple political person to practice Polity on his own soil.
> 
> India, the world's Largest hypocrisy. accept what the people of Kashmir want... and put an end to the hostilities between PAK-IND .. trust me you wont even need to spend billions of dollars to fund your armies.. And the people of Kashmir will love u for it..
> 
> The more you suppress them the more they'll chant this slogan.
> 
> For you may take away our lives! But you may never take away our Freedom!!!



shut the hell up!,!!!!diot!
When we can allow the very same hardline Geelani to make anti-India speech in the capital(New Delhi) and still not arrested,would we not allow him to practice Eid Prayers?


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## gubbi

Aashiq said:


> I hope they put Geelani behind bars because if they do then he will become another Nelson Mandela and it will spark outrage in Indian Occupied Kashmir.



Seriously? Geelani in the same boat as Nelson Mandela? You got to be kidding me! You see, unlike Geelani and his ilk, Nelson Mandela is not a hypocrite or a religious fanatic.

Anywho, these so called "separatist leaders" for whatever worth their salt, are not religious figures to lead prayers. Good decision by Indian authorities. The common man wasnt stopped from praying, so what gives? Stupid green media!

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## Vajra_Yuddh

!!! Oh wow! Great way to start off. 

Well just to make it look "equal" for dear Pakistani members here, neither does Bal Thackeray lead Ganesh Chaturthi prayers in Mumbai . It is normal. Religious prayers can be lead by anyone other than political two-timers who cover up their own dark histories of horrors by spreading false propaganda.


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## Prometheus

Azad Kashmir said:


> What else can we expect from the the world's largest hypocrosy?



1.Hanging him in the square 
2.gunning him down
3.nuking his house etc etc etc.............

You can expect many things from evil bhartis................they are the worlds Biggest hypocrasy.

Long live Pakistan


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## Rafi

This indian hubris is good, the Kashmiri people will feel more hatred for india, the Mirwaiz is the acknowledged religious leader of the majority of the people - he has led Eid prayers for the last 250 years, so more hatred and anti-india feeling is the logical conclusion.


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## tomtommy

Prometheus said:


> 1.Hanging him in the square
> 2.gunning him down
> 3.nuking his house etc etc etc.............
> 
> You can expect many things from evil bhartis................they are the worlds Biggest hypocrasy.
> 
> Long live Pakistan



u mean the same way done to mr bugti mr prabharkar mr uighur etc... ha


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## Screambowl

what would they do by offering and leading Eid Prayers and Namaz? Another outrage in Kashmir , another killing of innocent civilians in the name of Freedom and Islam.
Thats what they are paid for. Baki sab dikhawa hai,.

Eid is gone nuthing happened.. so close this thread!!


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## Ammyy

*Really good decision by Indian authorities 

If this act save life's of people of Kashmir so i think no need to release them in their entire life. 

Otherwise they start to misguide people and youth again

Good Work*


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## queerbaits

Good decision by GOI,considering the recent increase in unrest


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## KS

_Bwahahahah --- why do these ppl need to go outside and celebrate. Why dont they just pray to their Bhagwan at home ??_

----- No I did not say this. It was our lady from KP who had to say this when Hindus/Sikhs had to get permission from the Old Man to celebrate Diwali.


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## PakSher

Screambowl said:


> what would they do by offering and leading Eid Prayers and Namaz? Another outrage in Kashmir , another killing of innocent civilians in the name of Freedom and Islam.
> Thats what they are paid for. Baki sab dikhawa hai,.
> 
> Eid is gone nuthing happened.. so close this thread!!



The spelling of nothing is not "nuthing" or GOI's nut thing or stupidity ? Close the thread? This is not an Indian Forum, PDF is open for discussions. The Indian citizens by constitution have a right to practice their religion, but Kashmiris do not have that right and need to make a separate country or join Pakistan to have freedom of religion.

Please do revise your english books from grade 2.


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## Hulk

One has to be mindful of not mixing religion with politics. Mirwaiz is guilty of doing politics using religious prayer and place. He instigated people to violence last time. Government did the right thing of not allowing him to lead the prayer. Religion should be kept separate from politics.

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## UnitedPak

*Kashmir movement indigenous: Norwegian FM*



> Saturday, November 20, 2010
> News Desk
> OSLO: The Norwegian Minister of Foreign Affairs Jonas Gahr Store has maintained that the *&#8220;current uprising in Kashmir is indigenous and youngsters throwing stones should not be met with bullets. Also, international standards on human rights should be upheld by all including India&#8221;*.
> He was concluding the maiden debate on the Kashmir conflict in the Norwegian parliament and stated that his government was encouraging India and Pakistan to solve the conflict through peaceful means as violence was no solution to their problems.
> *The Norwegian minster further said that Norway was constantly keeping an eye on the unfolding events in Kashmir, particularly through its embassies in New Dehli and Islamabad.* He said:* &#8220;The Norwegian embassy in New Dehli has raised the issue of Kashmir with the Indian government at all levels.&#8221; He recalled that he had personally talked about Kashmir during his visits to the region.* He reminded the house that the Norwegian embassy participated in a joint Nordic delegation to Indian Held Jammu and Kashmir in April this year where they had taken up human rights and political situation with the representatives of the Jammu and Kashmir government and the police.
> Chairman of Norwegian parliamentary Kashmir Committee Knut Arild Hareide said that peace in Afghanistan was linked to the settlement of Kashmir issue. She added that unsolved Kashmir conflict was hampering the international community&#8217;s efforts to curb terrorism worldwide.
> Conservative Party&#8217;s Member Parliament Peter Skovholt Gitmark also emphasised that people of Kashmir must be included in the settlement process. *He further said that a negotiated solution between Pakistan and India must also reflect the wishes of the local people.*
> Other who participated in the debate included Svein Roald Hansen, MP for the Labour Party, Tone Liljeroth, MP for the Progress Party, MP Peter N Myhre of the Norwegian Progress Party and Akhtar Chaudhry of the Socialist Left Party.
> Sardar Ali Shahnawaz Khan, Executive Director Kashmiri Scandinavian Council, Oslo, lauded the Norwegian Foreign Minister and Chairman Kashmir Committee Knut Arild Hareide for debating Kashmir in the Norwegian parliament and condemning the human rights violations publicly.
> *He said it was encouraging that all parties of Norway unanimously urged India and Pakistan to include the people of Jammu and Kashmir in the settlement process. *He said it would set an example for other countries and their parliaments to come up publicly and condemn at least human rights violations *and support the Kashmiris&#8217; cause for the right of self-determination.*



Kashmir movement indigenous: Norwegian FM

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## ajtr

If I were an indigenous Kashmiri terrorist, this statement of support from Norway would be a most depressing development indeed. Norway was one of the only countries in the world criticising Sri Lanka in its operations against the LTTE. Now they have chosen the other end of the subcontinent to back a losing cause.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

A good blow for the Indian occupation, a statement like this from Norway, a neautral country that also accomodates the The Nobel Peace Price, adds good weight to the Kashmiri struggle.

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## Rafi

Azad Kashmir said:


> A good blow for the Indian occupation, a statement like this from Norway, a neautral country that also accomodates the The Nobel Peace Price, adds good weight to the Kashmiri struggle.



Excellent post Azad


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## Vajra_Yuddh

ajtr said:


> If I were an indigenous Kashmiri terrorist, this statement of support from Norway would be a most depressing development indeed. Norway was one of the only countries in the world criticising Sri Lanka in its operations against the LTTE. Now they have chosen the other end of the subcontinent to back a losing cause.


Guess the Norwegians living up there don't know what the situation is. They should not try to become US or Russia when they're nowhere close. This would definitely have consequences.


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## Vajra_Yuddh

Azad Kashmir said:


> A good blow for the Indian occupation, a statement like this from Norway, a neautral country that also accomodates the The Nobel Peace Price, adds good weight to the Kashmiri struggle.


The same Norway also pissed China off a few days back if you remember. Guess living up there and being ignored without any activity gives them an itch. If they are indeed neutral, then they should not comment since Neutral means not taking any position. 

Besides, who's Norway in diplomatic world?


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## Vajra_Yuddh

Aamir Zia said:


> Who back stabbed the Iran first ?


Backstabbed? We had clearly said that we don't support a nuclear weapons program for Iran in the very beginning but support civil nuclear rights definitely. It was clearly conveyed to Iranian government and we also refused to agree to sanctioning them.

There was never any "backstabbing" as you guys call it. We had our terms clear and they agreed to it.


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Giving a statment like this without knowing the ground reality is totaly BS, and they did;nt learned a lesson from china after giving nobel prize. 

GOI needs to take a look at this noose poking and should provide a statement from MEA that "{If you ain't know anything then keep your mouth shut"}

By the way where is norway on world map ? ....


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## Rafi

Karthic Sri said:


> Why is this racist double id ---- Abii aka Nima ---- still here....?? Mods



Brother this is what is known as indian hubris, they constantly mouth off about other countries, and ignore the shocking state of their own country, they mouth off against Pakistan, China, Turkey, Iran etc etc, but when they hear the truth about 80% of indians living on less than half a dollar a day.

They immediately go into self denial mode, this is racist, how dare people say the truth about india, only indians have the right to criticize, this is outrageous. 

Glad Iran is developing, bro hope you continue on your path of development.


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## Rafi

bhim could you please write in English, your grammar is terrible.


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Azad Kashmir said:


> A good blow for the Indian occupation, a statement like this from Norway, a neautral country that also accomodates the The Nobel Peace Price, adds good weight to the Kashmiri struggle.



GOOD blow?? I can't even c a minor scratch ...

Neutral country?? Sure....?? And about adding weight to kashmiri struggle.... This weight is no where near the weight by pakistan and if we can handle that weight then this is nothing in comparision...and world ain't give a damn even to this...! neither we .....

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## subject17

Norway is a small scandinavian country right?


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## tomtommy

no i guess it is in south america.. near to chile and peru...


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## Rafi

Norway comes first in the world in most indices for living standards, corruption etc, and I am glad they are bringing up Kashmir, this is the start of the world wakening up to the Kashmiri Intifada.


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## Cityboy

Oh.what a Major set back for india. To counter the omnipotent norway , we have support of papua new gini. .

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## Roby

UnitedPak said:


> *Kashmir movement indigenous: Norwegian FM*
> 
> 
> 
> Kashmir movement indigenous: Norwegian FM



Can you post a neutral source on this? I think only Pakistani sources are reporting this.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Regarding the Nobel Prize, it's recognized as pretty neautral by most countries, only China has had a problem in regards to the current one. Before hopping on the band wagon, learn why the Prize was give - the reciever advocated more freedom of speech in China.

As for comparing Norway to Papua New Guiniua, Norway is in the Top 5 for most GDP charts, which would give them all the more authority when it comes to dimplomacy than Papua.


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## GodlessBastard

If Kashmiris want to be with Pakistan so much, why don't you guys open the border and give free tickets to all the Kashmiris escaping evil Hindoo Indian oppression?


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## mr42O

Vajra_Yuddh said:


> Guess the Norwegians living up there don't know what the situation is. They should not try to become US or Russia when they're nowhere close. This would definitely have consequences.



lol Norwegains know better than local Indians who only get news from there own channels.

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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

mr42O said:


> lol Norwegains know better than local Indians who only get news from there own channels.



lol,, Best post of the thread...


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## Rafi

The Pakistani-Norwegian community is well integrated and powerful in national life, many Norwegian Pakistanis also serve in their military, and are members of parliament, Eid and Pakistani Independence Day are recognised their. 

Been there is a beautiful and prosperous country - 

Well Done Norway


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## Vajra_Yuddh

mr42O said:


> lol Norwegains know better than local Indians who only get news from there own channels.


Well the difference is that we *live* in this country and don't need to look for news channels alone especially with large families such as mine scattered from the northernmost tip of the country to easternmost.

But I like the humor in your post . Good to lighten up the thread mood sometimes.


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## Vajra_Yuddh

Rafi said:


> The Pakistani-Norwegian community is well integrated and powerful in national life, many Norwegian Pakistanis also serve in their military, and are members of parliament, Eid and Pakistani Independence Day are recognised their.
> 
> Been there is a beautiful and prosperous country -
> 
> Well Done Norway


Of course it is a peaceful and lovely country. I particularly am mesmerized by its fjords and valleys. Not to mention sparkling lakes, well maintained roads, houses and excellent public service. The country looks additionally beautiful in winter times when northen lights come up. One of my most enchanting experiences.

But that is where it stops for me.


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## Irfan Baloch

Vajra_Yuddh said:


> Of course it is a peaceful and lovely country. I particularly am mesmerized by its fjords and valleys. Not to mention sparkling lakes, well maintained roads, houses and excellent public service. The country looks additionally beautiful in winter times when northen lights come up. One of my most enchanting experiences.
> 
> But that is where it stops for me.



why does it stop for you?
is it because the Foreign minister said something you dont like?
its a known fact that Kashmiri freedom stuggle is indigenous and as old as the founding of 2 indipendent states of India & Pakistan. whether anyone says it openley or not wont change the reality


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

GodlessBastard said:


> If Kashmiris want to be with Pakistan so much, why don't you guys open the border and give free tickets to all the Kashmiris escaping evil Hindoo Indian oppression?



The majority of Kashmiris want an indepedent state of Kashmir, an even larger majority want their right to self determination to be exercised as promised by India over 60 years ago. Pakistan supports the Kashmiri struggle morally and diplomatically.

Why don't you guys remove your occupying forces from Kashmir and let us live in peace?

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## CaptainPrice

Thats much deleted replies.


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## 53fd

bandit said:


> Why is it so hard for some to accept the fact that Indian Muslims have a decent life in a hindu majority country



Ayodhya, Delhi, Bhagalpur, Gujarat, Malegaon to name a few. Also, Muslims are the largest but the most underrepresented minority in India, even worse than Dalits. More than 2/3rd Indian Muslim women are illiterate.

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## brahmastra

^^ tell them to go to school or tell their parents/hubbys to send them school.


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## muse

Then maybe Hindu mobs will not burn them alive?


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## 53fd

bandit said:


> Why is it so hard for some to accept the fact that Indian Muslims have a decent life in a hindu majority country



Ayodhya, Delhi, Bhagalpur, Gujarat, Malegaon to name a few. Also, Muslims are the largest but the most underrepresented minority in India, and their overall condition is even worse than Dalits. More than 2/3rd Indian Muslim women are illiterate.


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## building7

*Bhooka nanga Hindustan; Jaan se pyaara Pakistan*(about 700 million hungry eatin once a day living on meager rations) Well said kashmiri brothers


and india thinks its a 

not to mention the farmers commiting mass suicide.


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## Patriotic_Pakistani

Well Well...seems like there is no solution to Kashmir other than another indo-Pak war


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## AMCA

Patriotic_Pakistani said:


> Well Well...seems like there is no solution to Kashmir other than another indo-Pak war




I guess so too Brother..... Another Indo Pak War and it would Settle the dispute Once and For all....


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## KS

brahmastra said:


> ^^ tell them to go to school or tell their parents/hubbys to send them school.



Ouch ! that must have hurt.



muse said:


> Then maybe Hindu mobs will not burn them alive?



Maybe if they (Muslim Mobs) dont burn Hindu Pilgrims alive.....?


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## AMCA

bilalhaider said:


> Ayodhya, Delhi, Bhagalpur, Gujarat, Malegaon to name a few. Also, Muslims are the largest but the most underrepresented minority in India, and their overall condition is even worse than Dalits. More than 2/3rd Indian Muslim women are illiterate.



Is it our fault that the Muslim womens are Illiterate in India, the Muslim Society Is Against educating women not only in India but many muslim countries.... We have right to education buddy....


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## muse

In that case, thank God for Pakistan Eh?


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## AMCA

muse said:


> In that case, thank God for Pakistan Eh?



talking to me??


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## Awesome

Hurriyat factions plan visit to China, Iran



> Geelani, Mirwaiz will consult diplomats in Delhi
> Ishfaq Ahmad Shah
> 
> Srinagar, Nov 21: Encouraged by China and Irans recent stand on Kashmir, both factions of Hurriyat Conference are planning to visit the two countries to mobilize their permanent diplomatic support towards resolution of the Kashmir issue.
> As part of the process, the chairmen of the two factions will meet the envoys of the two countries during their scheduled visits to New Delhi in coming days.
> 
> A visit to Iran and China will not only strengthen our movement on diplomatic front but will help us to garner more international support for resolution of Kashmir issue. Like Pakistan, we have to garner support from these countries to pressurise India to resolve the Kashmir issue amicably and according to UN resolutions, Hurriyat (G) chairman Syed Ali Geelani told Rising Kashmir.
> 
> He said during his planned visit to New Delhi he would be meeting the envoys of China and Iran. I would meet the ambassadors of the two countries to formulate a proper mechanism for a formal visit, Geelani said adding, A permanent support for the implementation of UN resolutions will strengthen our long-pending demand for Right to Self Determination to allow Kashmiris to determine their fate.
> 
> He, however, said any visit to these countries will be subject to the issuance of travel documents by the Indian authorities.
> 
> The Hurriyat (M) chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq also said that his conglomerate is working on diplomatic front for such a visit. International support for Kashmir is must and we will surely visit these countries whenever such an opportunity comes. We are working on such things and as a first step we would be meeting the envoys of China and Iran during my scheduled visit to Indian capital in the coming weeks, Mirwaiz said.
> 
> He said Chinas stand on Kashmir has always been encouraging and the recent statement by Iranian spiritual leader on Kashmir is a beginning of support building process on international level for resolution of Kashmir issue. To garner the support permanently, visits to these countries is necessary and must, he said.
> 
> The Hurriyat (M) chairman said the senior conglomerate leader Aga Syed Hassan has been frequently visiting Iran, apprising its leaders about the Kashmir situation and its implications on the peace and stability of the region.
> 
> He said he has a standing invitation from a Chinese NGO and plans to visit Iran as well in the near future.



Hurriyat Leaders must have dedicated members touring country to country drumming up support for their freedom.

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## Ganguly

muse said:


> In that case, thank God for Pakistan Eh?



minus the Zardari, Taliban, LET, Suicide bombers, falling economy, cricket scandal..The list seems to be endless.


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## LaBong

bilalhaider said:


> Ayodhya, Delhi, Bhagalpur, Gujarat, Malegaon to name a few. Also, Muslims are the largest but the most underrepresented minority in India, even worse than Dalits. More than 2/3rd Indian Muslim women are illiterate.



Why can't you guys just check the goddamn fact before being proven laughable? Muslims in India are more literate than their Pakistani counterparts and even in many cases than Indian Hindus. 







^That figure is from *2001 census*. Now compare with literacy in Pakistan.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Patriotic_Pakistani said:


> Well Well...seems like there is no solution to Kashmir other than another indo-Pak war



Hopefully not.

Our region of the world (Asia) is unstable enough already, without another war being fought between two large nuclear nations.


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## muse

> talking to me??



No, to Karthic -- and reminding him that Bhooka Nanga Hindustan, Jan se Pyara Pakistan is not a slogan of the Pakistan but of the captive kashmiri -- You might want to go on burning Muslims alive, but I can't see where it's enamored the Muslims to Hindustan


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## Jade

Asim Aquil said:


> Hurriyat factions plan visit to China, Iran
> 
> 
> 
> Hurriyat Leaders must have dedicated members touring country to country drumming up support for their freedom.



Before that they have to take Indian Passports and agree that they are Indians

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## AMCA

muse said:


> No, to Karthic -- and reminding him that Bhooka Nanga Hindustan, Jan se Pyara Pakistan is not a slogan of the Pakistan but of the captive kashmiri -- You might want to go on burning Muslims alive, but I can't see where it's enamored the Muslims to Hindustan



If U love them so much Why dont u take them as refugees??? We dont need any Separatist to live in our country....


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## LaBong

muse said:


> No, to Karthic -- and reminding him that Bhooka Nanga Hindustan, Jan se Pyara Pakistan is not a slogan of the Pakistan but of the captive *kashmiri *



Kashmiri Sunni Muslims of valley, is that what you mean?


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## foxbat

So will China give stapled visas to Huriyat leaders and hence deny them the visit, since India will probably not allow them to travel on those visas.


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## INDIAN007

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Hopefully not.
> 
> Our region of the world (Asia) is unstable enough already, without another war being fought between two large nuclear nations.



see , even China doesnt support Another war as a solution to kashmir ...... so pakistan better leave Kashmir issue


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## Areesh

foxbat said:


> So will China give stapled visas to Huriyat leaders and hence deny them the visit, since India will probably not allow them to travel on those visas.



Is that the best you can do to save your so called integrity in IOK.


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## muse

> So will China give stapled visas to Huriyat leaders and hence deny them the visit, since India will probably not allow them to travel on those visas.




Oh my goodness, what's brewing? But Indian friends are in a good place, US and Obama still digs'em - but suddenly captive Kashmir is not so diplomatically isolated, what gives?? What am I missing?


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## foxbat

Areesh said:


> Is that the best you can do to save your so called integrity in IOK.



Where does integrity of J&K or P OK come into picture. ?? I asked a simple question since what I read last was that Indian emmigration authorities do not recognize the stapled visa as valid.


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## Areesh

foxbat said:


> Where does integrity of J&K or P OK come into picture. ?? I asked a simple question since what I read last was that Indian emmigration authorities do not recognize the stapled visa as valid.



Well they aren't going to change their policy and this denial of recognition won't work. So think for a better alternative next time.


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## bandmaster

Asim Aquil said:


> The massacres of Muslims?
> 
> *The continuous threats by government officials to send them to Pakistan?
> *
> The state cajoling the perpetrators of the babri mosque demolition?
> 
> "Ghulami main khush hain, abhi doosron ki
> Ke rehtay hain jannat main, woh ahmakon ki".



Yes. That is one terrifying threat.

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## Awesome

Mirwaiz has already traveled outside of India before... So I'm thinking its not an issue.

Mirwaiz can travel to the ME and go from there


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## bandmaster

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Hopefully not.
> 
> Our region of the world (Asia) is unstable enough already, without another war being fought between two large nuclear nations.



Pakistan has just the right demographics, economic situation and geopolitical ambition that will belie your hope.
Unless one of the above drastically changes for the better, it's only a matter of time before something serious breaks out, I'm afraid.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

A good move, the Kashmiri Struggle needs to be internationalized by the Hurriyat. At the moment, the Hurriyat is too "local", a strong worded negative statement on Obama's remarks to Kashmir and protests in the US by Kashmiris abroad would have great effect, for example. Similarly, the Hurriyat needs to move away from the OIC and closer to the UN, an organization India aspires to become a permananent member of. Regular, strong worded speaches in the UN would draw some publicity.

Mobilizing the Kashmiri diaspora in Western Countries such as the US and UK would also be profitable, these are important players for India and protests against India by citizens of the UK would be a blow to relations between UK / India.


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Rumporum said:


> Rephrased
> 
> So basically is/are there some member who is/are actually in Pakistan Kashmir or Indian Kashmir now.... as we are getting into some completely other topic.



I'm from Pakistani Kashmir, Azad Jammu and Kashmir. I view the current unrest as an ongoing struggle and rightful representations of Kashmiris' feelings towards India. My grandad for example, lived through Dogra times and hails the Pakistani Army as his saviors, whereas, he literally loaths the Indian Army for their brutal occupation and war with Kashmir and the Kashmiris. Kashmir was a soverign nation, due to some events, its soveriegnty was breached, for better or for worse, India is still responsible for caring for Kashmiri citizens in a humane way.

Let me give you an example, AJK has a part of Mangla Dam I believe within it, a lot of villages were displaced in the building of the dam. Pakistani irregulars invaded Kashmir first too. However, their is hardly any resistance to Pakistan in comparison to the one in IOK. Why? Because Pakistan has treated Kashmiris humanly and with respect to their deserved rights. Ofcourse, the large majority want an indepedent state of Kashmir, but are very proud of Pakistan and its' achievements. Pakistani independence day is celebrated and Dr. A. Q Khan is a hero. The level of co-operation and brotherhood is so deep due to the common enemy of both peoples, India. Kashmiris see Pakistanis as a brother fighting for their freedom, and as that, a natural ally.

I'll say it a thousand times, Kashmir is India's biggest blunder. The issue could have been resolved, but the Indian Forces acted in an inhumane way against the Kashmiri population, equalling an occupation. - There's a reason I call Pakistani Kashmir, Pakistan Held Kashmir and Indian Kashmir as Indian Occupied Kashmir.

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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Looks like the world's speaking up on Kashmir, first Norway, now Canada.

Canadian diplomats call on Malik
UMER MAQBOOL DAR
Smaller Default Larger
undefined

Srinagar, Nov 21: The 2-member team of Canadian High Commission called on the chairman of Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front Muhammad Yasin Malik here on Sunday. 
The team comprising July G. Bentley head of political affairs and Sumitra Dave, economic and political advisor of Canadian High Commission arrived at Malik&#8217;s Maisuma residence this afternoon. 
&#8220;Past 63-years of conflict have consumed our four generations. It is the moral duty of the international community to get the Kashmir issue resolved once for all,&#8221; Malik told the 2-member team.
&#8220;Due to changing world scenario, we showed transition from violent to non-violent struggle and it should have been respected, but instead indiscriminate force was used to crush it,&#8221; Malik said.
The JKLF chief said, &#8220;Not a single policeman or a paramilitary CRPF trooper was killed during past five months. But we received 112 bodies which included the bodies of children in the age group of 9, 12 and 14.&#8221;
&#8220;Government has even snatched space for the peaceful protests and I appeal the international community to play its role so that Kashmiris are not compelled to resort to the violence again. We are not against India&#8217;s economic progress but when a country is heading towards becoming a big power, peace is imperative for it, so India should resolve Kashmir for its stability and peace,&#8221; he added.
Pertinently, the Canadian High Commission, over the past few years, has denied visas to a number of senior serving and retired officials of the armed forces and intelligence establishment, claiming that their organizations or they themselves served in areas like Jammu and Kashmir and engaged in violence and human rights violations.

---------- Post added at 05:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:23 PM ----------

Canadian diplomats call on Mirwaiz
Lastupdate at : Mon, 22 Nov 2010 15:43:35 IST
Smaller Default Larger

Srinagar: The 2-member team of Canadian High Commission called on the chairman of Hurriyat Conference (M), Mirwaiz Umar Farooq here on Monday.
The team comprising July G. Bentley head of political affairs and Sumitra Dave, economic and political advisor of Canadian High Commission arrived at Mirwaiz&#8217;s Nageen residence this afternoon and discussed the present Kashmir situation, Mirwaiz&#8217;s close aide, Shahid-ul-Islam told Greater Kashmir.


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## Rafi

Bravo Canada


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## Vajra_Yuddh

Azad Kashmir said:


> The majority of Kashmiris want an indepedent state of Kashmir, an even larger majority want their right to self determination to be exercised as promised by India over 60 years ago. Pakistan supports the Kashmiri struggle morally and diplomatically.
> 
> Why don't you guys remove your occupying forces from Kashmir and let us live in peace?


This "majority" is according to you. Not according to what is here in the state. And separatists are lesser than the number of kashmiri pandits, buddhists and sikhs; forget the total population. 

There was never a Kashmiri struggle until you sent your meddlers in in late 80s. Sorry Norway, or any other country having an opinion has the right to keep talking about it; we don't really care. And FYI, I have relations in that state so no need to tell me about how authentic I am.

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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Vajra_Yuddh said:


> This "majority" is according to you. Not according to what is here in the state. *And separatists are lesser than the number of kashmiri pandits, buddhists and sikhs; forget the total population. *
> 
> There was never a Kashmiri struggle until you sent your meddlers in in late 80s. Sorry Norway, or any other country having an opinion has the right to keep talking about it; we don't really care. And FYI, I have relations in that state so no need to tell me about how authentic I am.



The Kashmiri Pandits, Sikhs and Buddhists are actually a minority, I believe. As for the majority, look up various Kashmir Survey's.

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## Peshwa

Irfan Baloch said:


> why does it stop for you?
> is it because the Foreign minister said something you dont like?
> its a known fact that Kashmiri freedom stuggle is indigenous and as old as the founding of 2 indipendent states of India & Pakistan. whether anyone says it openley or not wont change the reality



Please dont twist the story to your liking....

The report clearly mentions that the *current* wave of violence was incited by local youth pelting stones....

This is in no way giving Pakistan a free pass in the terrorism that it has supported in the name of freedom and religion in Kashmir for the past 2 decades....
In fact, taking a snipette of the story to build a cause does not change why Kashmir is highly militarized and in a mess in the first place...

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## Ingis

Could not find a single non-Pakistani source which reports Norway's comments on Kashmir.

If Norway had indeed made those remarks, then it would have created a lot of buzz in international media. Sorry, but cannot take these news reports seriously unless it is published by a neutral source.

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## Vajra_Yuddh

Azad Kashmir said:


> The Kashmiri Pandits, Sikhs and Buddhists are actually a minority, I believe. As for the majority, look up various Kashmir Survey's.


The separatist population are even smaller in amount than these 'minorities'. Looking at a few pictures can have a different psychological image. By the way they weren't below the standard 10&#37; until overly made. Choose not to believe me but that is your choice.

And for some reason you say "majority of Kashmiris". 

And which survey did you exactly see? I don't think you have access to GOI's personal documents especially regarding J&K because not even prime Indian researchers have access to them. Don't speak for the heck of argument.


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## Rafi

Respect human rights in Kashmir: Norwegian FM to India

*Oslo: Norway has expressed its concern on the fresh violence in Kashmir and urged India to respect human rights. "I fully share the concern for the situation in Kashmir. Human rights standards should be followed by all countries, of course, also by India. Young people who throw stones should not be met by sharp shots," Jonas Gahr Store, Norwegian,Foreign Minister told the Norwegian parliament during a maiden debate on Kashmir conflict earlier this week.*

He impressed upon both India and Pakistan to solve the 63-year old dispute *giving due consideration to the aspiration of Kashmiris to arrive at a final settlement.*


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## Rafi

Kashmir uprising indigenous: Norway | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online)

*OSLO (Agencies) &#8211; The Norwegian Minister of Foreign Affairs Jonas Gahr Store has maintained that the current uprising in Kashmir is indigenous and the protesting youngsters should not be met with bullets. International standards on human rights should be upheld by all including India.*


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## Rafi

Vajra_Yuddh said:


> The separatist population are even smaller in amount than these 'minorities'. Looking at a few pictures can have a different psychological image. By the way they weren't below the standard 10% until overly made. Choose not to believe me but that is your choice.
> 
> And for some reason you say "majority of Kashmiris".
> 
> And which survey did you exactly see? I don't think you have access to GOI's personal documents especially regarding J&K because not even prime Indian researchers have access to them. Don't speak for the heck of argument.



If you truly believe you have a majority,  lets have a plebiscite, and put your money, where your mouth is


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## Hyde

@Topic

wow!!! Excellent news... we need support on Kashmir movement from as many countries as possible to find the peaceful resolution of Kashmir dispute... particularly the European and Scandinavian part.

Otherwise both countries can't do nothing, all alone



subject17 said:


> Norway is a small scandinavian country right?





tomtommy said:


> no i guess it is in south america.. near to chile and peru...





Maulik said:


> Oh.what a Major set back for india. To counter the omnipotent norway , we have support of papua new gini. .


Stop your B.S.



> Today, Norway ranks as the second wealthiest country in the world in monetary value,[9][10][11] with the largest capital reserve per capita of any nation. Norway is the world&#8217;s fifth largest oil exporter,[12] and the petroleum industry accounts for around a quarter of its Gross domestic product.[13] Following the ongoing financial crisis of 2007&#8211;2010, bankers have deemed the Norwegian krone to be one of the most solid currencies in the world.[14]
> 
> Norway has rich resources of oil, natural gas, hydroelectric power, forests, and minerals, and was the second largest exporter of seafood (in value, after the People's Republic of China) in 2006.[15] Other major industries include shipping, food processing, shipbuilding, the metal industry, chemicals, mining, fishing, and the pulp and paper products from forests. Norway maintains a Scandinavian welfare model with universal health-care, subsidized higher education, and a comprehensive social security system. Norway was ranked highest of all countries in human development from 2001 to 2007,[3] and then again in 2009 and 2010.[16] In 2010, the World Economic Forum deemed Norway as the 14th most competitive country in the world, however placing at the near bottom of Western Europe. In 2010, Norway was also rated the fifth most peaceful country in the world in a 2010 survey by Global Peace Index.[17]

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## I FLY HIGH

Vajra_Yuddh said:


> The separatist population are even smaller in amount than these 'minorities'. Looking at a few pictures can have a different psychological image. By the way they weren't below the standard 10% until overly made. Choose not to believe me but that is your choice.
> 
> And for some reason you say "majority of Kashmiris".
> 
> And which survey did you exactly see? I don't think you have access to GOI's personal documents especially regarding J&K because not even prime Indian researchers have access to them. Don't speak for the heck of argument.


I would say well done Norway, I salute to the kashmiris for fighting for their independence. GREAT KASHMIRIS .

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## Roby

Rafi said:


> Kashmir uprising indigenous: Norway | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online)
> 
> .



Please post a neutral source ,if you can find one.


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## Rafi

Norway-Pakistan Zindabad

Pakistani Norwegians - are an example for other overseas Pakistanis - they play their full part in Norwegian society, and are well integrated, they even serve in the military Well done to them, it is their hard work, lobbying Norwegian politicians


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Wasn't it the Norwegians who said ,Prabhakaran is a military genius and intended Sri Lankan Govt should make compromises with the LTTE?

Wonder what Norway has to gain by acting as a mediator in SA conflicts?

LTTE crisis was understandable as a lot of Tamil refugees live in Norway.


To this i think the Indian Govt will follow the Std K-word protocol. Last one to face it was David Miliband.



PS : Personally! I see that nation as a role model for developing countries.

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## Jackdaws

Norway has a sizable Pakistani population as well - all Nordic countries do. Indian population is minuscule.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Jackdaws said:


> Norway has a sizable Pakistani population as well - all Nordic countries do. Indian population is minuscule.



Indians are doing there well.

Indians number one of skilled foreigners in Norway

Having plans to do my MS there !


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## Jackdaws

Bombensturm said:


> Indians are doing there well.
> 
> Indians number one of skilled foreigners in Norway
> 
> Having plans to do my MS there !



I've lived in Scandinavia for a while - 2 years actually. Trust me, the Pakistanis outnumber the Indians - by a lot. They moved there in the 1960s - the Indians are usually from TCS/Infosys etc. skilled labor or students and have only begun going there over the last decade. But a lot of shopkeepers, taxi-drivers etc. are Pakistani.

Nice chaps too. I used to smoke back then and the Pakistani shopkeepers used to sell loose ciggies - desi style. I even watched some cricket matches with a few of them


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## Rafi

Jackdaws said:


> I've lived in Scandinavia for a while - 2 years actually. Trust me, the Pakistanis outnumber the Indians - by a lot. They moved there in the 1960s - the Indians are usually from TCS/Infosys etc. skilled labor or students and have only begun going there over the last decade. But a lot of shopkeepers, taxi-drivers etc. are Pakistani.
> 
> Nice chaps too. I used to smoke back then and the Pakistani shopkeepers used to sell loose ciggies - desi style. I even watched some cricket matches with a few of them



You are trying to imply Pakistanis are taxi drivers, as if indians aren't 

*Almost 10% of the medical students in Oslo are of Pakistani heritage and this figure is increasing [3]. The figure is significant as Pakistani Norwegians only constitute 3.67% of Oslo's population. The share of Pakistani Norwegians, born and raised in Norway, in higher education at university level is higher than the Norwegian national average
*


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Rafi said:


> You are trying to imply Pakistanis are taxi drivers, as if indians aren't
> 
> *Almost 10&#37; of the medical students in Oslo are of Pakistani heritage and this figure is increasing [3]. The figure is significant as Pakistani Norwegians only constitute 3.67% of Oslo's population. The share of Pakistani Norwegians, born and raised in Norway, in higher education at university level is higher than the Norwegian national average
> *



I'm sure he meant no such thing,your prejudice blinds you from the context he mentions. 

By the way,Pakistanis are like any other successful immigrants ,except in for nations where they take up extremism(ex:UK).


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## Rafi

Bombensturm said:


> I'm sure he meant no such thing,your prejudice blinds you from the context he mentions.
> 
> By the Pakistanis are like any other successful immigrants ,except in for nations where they take up extremism(ex:UK).



He can speak for himself, and I am pretty sure - he meant it in a condescending way. 

In the UK there is a north - south divide, people in the north have less social mobility, whereas in the south they are doing very well, thank you very much. It is the same for the indigenous communities.


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## Jackdaws

Rafi said:


> You are trying to imply Pakistanis are taxi drivers, as if indians aren't
> 
> *Almost 10% of the medical students in Oslo are of Pakistani heritage and this figure is increasing [3]. The figure is significant as Pakistani Norwegians only constitute 3.67% of Oslo's population. The share of Pakistani Norwegians, born and raised in Norway, in higher education at university level is higher than the Norwegian national average
> *



Are you trying to imply that being a taxi driver is a bad thing? Have you no concept of dignity of labor? Shame on you.


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## Rafi

Jackdaws said:


> Are you trying to imply that being a taxi driver is a bad thing? Have you no concept of dignity of labor? Shame on you.



There is indeed dignity in labor, but it is indeed shameful for someone to try to sneak some prejudice in, there was a clear implication in your statement that indians are highly skilled, and Pakistanis are taxi drivers. 

I have met nice indian people around the world, who did working class jobs, bus boys, taxi drivers, security guards etc, and most have been decent people, your implication that, all indians are highly skilled is an insult to these hard working people. 

In fact a lot of indian guys in New York - are taxi drivers, one guy even refused to take my money, when he found out, I was Pakistani  that guy got a very nice tip. 

So get out of your petty prejudice and obsession against Pakistanis, in the long run - it wont be good for you.


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## Jackdaws

Rafi said:


> There is indeed dignity in labor, but it is indeed shameful for someone to try to sneak some prejudice in, there was a clear implication in your statement that indians are highly skilled, and Pakistanis are taxi drivers.
> 
> I have met nice indian people around the world, who did working class jobs, bus boys, taxi drivers, security guards etc, and most have been decent people, your implication that, all indians are highly skilled is an insult to these hard working people.
> 
> In fact a lot of indian guys in New York - are taxi drivers, one guy even refused to take my money, when he found out, I was Pakistani  that guy got a very nice tip.
> 
> So get out of your petty prejudice and obsession against Pakistanis, in the long run - it wont be good for you.



Your prejudice shows through once again. All Indians are highly skilled? haha - dude, all Americans, all British, all French, all Japs are not highly skilled - so why would I insinuate such a thing about a 3rd world developing nation like India? If you have an inferiority complex, see a shrink - don't put words in my mouth.

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## Rafi

Jackdaws said:


> Your prejudice shows through once again. All Indians are highly skilled? haha - dude, all Americans, all British, all French, all Japs are not highly skilled - so why would I insinuate such a thing about a 3rd world developing nation like India? If you have an inferiority complex, see a shrink - don't put words in my mouth.



When you loose an argument resort to petty name calling, you are the one prejudiced, and allow me to retort: your the one, on the Pakistani Defence Forum, and you have the temerity to accuse me of having an inferiority complex. 

I have known many decent hard working indian people all around the world, and then there are the other sort, like yourself - that are so full of hubris it isn't funny. 

It is not your fault, per say, indians are fed hatred for Pakistanis, like mothers milk - this obsession for Pakistan - is simply to be seen to be believed.


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## Rafi

Good try, to derail this thread, like many others your countrymen, have succeeded in doing. Back on topic.

Well done to Norway, and especially well done to the Pakistani Norwegian Community - very nice and friendly people, who I got to know well


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Vajra_Yuddh said:


> The separatist population are even smaller in amount than these 'minorities'. Looking at a few pictures can have a different psychological image. By the way they weren't below the standard 10% until overly made. Choose not to believe me but that is your choice.
> 
> And for some reason you say "majority of Kashmiris".
> 
> And which survey did you exactly see? I don't think you have access to GOI's personal documents especially regarding J&K because not even prime Indian researchers have access to them. Don't speak for the heck of argument.



I'm talking about indepedent surveys which favour an indepedent Kashmir over the other options. If the majority of Kashmiris want India, why doesn't India hold a pleblicsite and end this dispute, once and for all?


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## Jackdaws

Rafi said:


> When you loose an argument resort to petty name calling, you are the one prejudiced, and allow me to retort: your the one, on the Pakistani Defence Forum, and you have the temerity to accuse me of having an inferiority complex.
> 
> I have known many decent hard working indian people all around the world, and then there are the other sort, like yourself - that are so full of hubris it isn't funny.
> 
> It is not your fault, per say, indians are fed hatred for Pakistanis, like mothers milk - this obsession for Pakistan - is simply to be seen to be believed.




What argument did I lose? You think being a cab driver is a bad thing - I don't. Please learn to respect people from all walks of life irrespective of their job profile. _Kaam chota ya bada nahin hota lekin insaan chota ya bada hota hai._

I never said all Indians are highly skilled - yet you tried to put these words into my mouth. You even generalize that "Indians are fed hatred for Pakistanis like mothers (sic) milk" and you accuse me of being prejudiced!

Please, see a shrink to what I (perhaps wrongly) perceive to be an inferiority complex.

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## Rafi

If your not obsessed and don't have an inferiority complex, why do you keep coming back LoL, obsession from the one, spending all his spare time on a Pakistani Defence Forum. 

I have mentioned that I have known indians that were decent and friendly, then there is the other sort (mainly on the internet) who are full of hatred, and even though you try to not make it so obvious, all your posts are full of innuendo, and sly comment, that manifests this hatred for all to see. 

Lets return to the subject in hand, if india believes that the majority of Kashmiri are with her, lets have a plebiscite and lets decide once and for all, what these people want.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Hope something comes out good on Kashmir... !!


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## Jackdaws

Rafi said:


> If your not obsessed and don't have an inferiority complex, why do you keep coming back LoL, obsession from the one, spending all his spare time on a Pakistani Defence Forum.
> 
> I have mentioned that I have known indians that were decent and friendly, then there is the other sort (mainly on the internet) who are full of hatred, and even though you try to not make it so obvious, all your posts are full of innuendo, and sly comment, that manifests this hatred for all to see.
> 
> Lets return to the subject in hand, if india believes that the majority of Kashmiri are with her, lets have a plebiscite and lets decide once and for all, what these people want.



Err - coming back for what?

Yea - let's have a plebiscite as set out in the UN Resolutions. What's stopping Pakistan from fulfilling the conditions of the plebiscite if it is so confident?


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## 53fd

_Is it our fault that the Muslim womens are Illiterate in India, the Muslim Society Is Against educating women not only in India but many muslim countries.... We have right to education buddy...._

Oh, but I thought Indian Muslims were progressive and Pakistani Muslims were all terrorists? You sure this isn't a ploy of the ISI to keep Indian Muslims uneducated and in a worse state than Dalits? Is it the fault of Pakistan that Indian Muslims can't get houses in India, and they are the most underrepresented minority in India despite being the largest one? Tskkk Tskkk, contradictions contradictions.

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## LaBong

bilalhaider said:


> _Is it our fault that the Muslim womens are Illiterate in India, the Muslim Society Is Against educating women not only in India but many muslim countries.... We have right to education buddy...._
> 
> Oh, but I thought Indian Muslims were progressive and Pakistani Muslims were all terrorists? You sure this isn't a ploy of the ISI to keep Indian Muslims uneducated and in a worse state than Dalits? Is it the fault of Pakistan that Indian Muslims can't get houses in India, and they are the most underrepresented minority in India despite being the largest one? Tskkk Tskkk, contradictions contradictions.



Indian Muslims are more educated than you lot. And I'm telling this not to score point but merely to state fact.

Edit: seems to be banging my head on a wall because I already replied with detailed chart to this guy's post only.


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## syntax_error

After going through the Thread ....
it seems its the dream and want of India to breakup that keeping some states together and not break up themselves.....

Hate it seems unites.. which is good if it works for you .....


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## Donatello

AMCA said:


> If U love them so much Why dont u take them as refugees??? We dont need any Separatist to live in our country....



.....or freedom fighters who are demanding rights like those of the Indians. After being oppressed for decades, no wonder they have no choice but to shout against India.

It may be Gov of India's fault, but it tarnishes the image of the entire Nation.


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Patriotic_Pakistani said:


> Well Well...seems like there is no solution to Kashmir other than another indo-Pak war



If you think so you are most welcome anytime...


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## unicorn148

Indian Muslims are far more educated than the those in Pakistan.Even in many states we have reservations for Muslims and lower castes and tribes .....
As you say there were never a disputed between hindus and muslims except in ayodhya and gujarat. before there were in Hyderabad but now they all live in peace and live together


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Jackdaws said:


> Err - coming back for what?
> 
> Yea - let's have a plebiscite as set out in the UN Resolutions. What's stopping Pakistan from fulfilling the conditions of the plebiscite if it is so confident?



What's stopping India? India clearly feels they have much, much more to lose. Indian Armed presence is off the charts when compared to the Pakistani Armed presence in Kashmir. Also, the aspirations for an indepedent state have to be acknowledged too. What's stopping India in conducting a plebliscite in its *unstable* part of Kashmir with all aspirations, to end the resistance to India there and strengthen its territorial claims on Kashmir?

Also, Pakistan did start to withdraw troops I believe, in the 50's. But India didn't. India has also promised a plebliscite since the end of the First Kashmir War.


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## KS

Azad Kashmir said:


> What's stopping India? India clearly feels they have much, much more to lose. Indian Armed presence is off the charts when compared to the Pakistani Armed presence in Kashmir. Also, the aspirations for an indepedent state have to be acknowledged too. What's stopping India in conducting a plebliscite in its *unstable* part of Kashmir with all aspirations, to end the resistance to India there and strengthen its territorial claims on Kashmir?



Err...You dont make sense...especially in the context of his reply.

He clearly said if Pakistan is so confident about the outcome/aspirations of the Kashmiris and truly wants them to have their 'Right to Self-determination' ,let it first do a plebiscite in its part of Kashmir and then exhort India (which would be forced to do the same if Pakistan does it).

Unknowingly you have also substantiated his point ---- Its always the country that thinks it would win which conducts the referendum/plebiscite first, not the country which feels in the opposite way.



Azad Kashmir said:


> Also, Pakistan did start to *withdraw troops I believe*, in the 50's. But India didn't. India has also promised a plebliscite since the end of the First Kashmir War.



Your belief is wrong.Period.


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## SpArK

Good diplomacy from Norway.. Already Russia and six other countries including "china" has announced non participation in the controversial Nobel peace prize ceremony. Maybe its time we follow the way too.


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## jha

BENNY said:


> Good diplomacy from Norway.. Already Russia and six other countries including "china" has announced non participation in the controversial Nobel peace prize ceremony. Maybe its time we follow the way too.



yes..Its time to show them what their diplomacy can achieve..


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## Rajguru

Thank you Mr.FM.
You have a great knowledge of whats going inside Kashmir,history of Kashmir etc.
Ph.D in Kashmirology.
So he must be true!


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## Bharat Muslim

UnitedPak said:


> *current uprising in Kashmir is indigenous and youngsters throwing stones should not be met with bullets. Also, international standards on human rights should be upheld by all including India.*


*
Most Kashmiris do not want to be with India, okay? 

But this post is about stones versus bullets controversy. Racist-Type-Americans paid Indian security forces to reply stone-pelting Kashmiri youth with bullets. RTAs envy Indian security forces because of the better performance compared to how West fared in Iraq and Afghanistan. If the western propaganda were true, not a single Kashmiri would have been alive after 20 years of insurgency.

U.S. and not Pakistan is the enemy of Bharat. More about the sinister designs of RTAs later.*


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## Fasih Khan

*Shame On India ... They're geting told Off from every other Country. Alhumdulilah yet another great Victory for Kashmir Liberation Stuggle. May Allah Karim do justice to India. Ameen. God Bless Kashmiri Mujahideen. Ameen YaRabulalameen.*


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## GORKHALI

[/SIZE]*holy!!!!!S#$T CAN ANYONE PROVIDE NEUTRAL LINK HERE !!!AM GETTING CRAZY. I GOOGLED AND FIND NOTHING EVEN IN NORWEGIAN NEWSPAPER OR MEDIA,I EVEN ASKED ONE OF MY FRIEND FROM OSLO ABOUT THIS AND SHE SAID NOTHING!!!! CAN WE ASSUMED THAT NORWEGIAN PHOREN MINISTER ONLY COMMENT INFRONT OF PAKISTAN MEDIA ??????????????????????? AND AINT CANADA DUE TO ITS RECENT MESS WITH INDIAN GOVT BY REJECTING BSF OFFICER VISA GOT AN ANSWER DURING UNSC NON PERMANENT SEAT *?


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## Ammyy

Fasih Khan said:


> Shame On India* ... They're geting told Off from every other Country.* Alhumdulilah yet another great Victory for Kashmir Liberation Stuggle. May Allah Karim do justice to India. Ameen. God Bless Kashmiri Mujahideen. Ameen YaRabulalameen.



 

Look who is talking this thing............ 

And BTW please post any credible source

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## SpArK

^^ 

can u please use smaller font ask whatever u need to say in a way that is acceptable to the forum...

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## roach

^^Gave me an instant headache

but, I hear you bro


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## Gandhi G in da house

One can only laugh at Pakistanis jumping up and down like kids at this news .

what is the big deal ?

Norway has no influence on India . Period. what it says will make no difference .

When PM of UK says Pakistan is supporting terror Pakistanis say it makes no difference . when someone from norway says soemthing in favour of Pakistan they start celebrating .

double standards i must say . 

the truth is both statements make 0 difference on the ground .


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## heyheyhey

Sat Sri Akal

I have been reading news etc on defence.pk for a couple of years now. Not been so interested in participating in any debates, as most of them just end up being the usual dick-measuring-contests (I know a lot of Pakistanis here claim that this forum is better then other Pakistani/Indian forums: maybe that used to be true a couple of years back, but honestly I dont see much difference anymore, which I sad because it used to be good.)

Anyway, the reason I decided to make my first post was because the heading-title of this topic caught my attention, being a Norwegian of Indian (Punjabi) origin. The article posted by UnitedPak is quite misleading, and a perfect example of what the members here call cherry-picking. 

Jonas Gahr Støre said nothing controversial from Indian POV. The Kashmir conflict is not something that has been getting a lot attention in the local media here in Norway; even the unrest a couple of months back in J&K hardly made it to the news. (Some Norwegian-Pakistani-members here can probably confirm that) 

And this speech (It was not even a speech that the government initiated; the Minister of Foreign Affairs, JGS, was simply answering a question raised by a fellow MP in the Norwegian parliament), I only heard about in this forum; it has not been mentioned in the media here at all. 

Anyway, Im posting a link to the official cite of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, where the whole transcript of Jonas Gahr Støres speech is given. People should read what he said, instead of relying on some biased articles. Unfortunately the speech is only available in Norwegian, but Google translate is quite accurate when it comes to translating from Norwegian to English. 

I could have highlighted the sections of special interest, but then I would be accused of doing a little bit of cherry-picking my self, wouldnt I? 

And please, to my Indian brothers, stop bashing my country. Jonas Gahr Støre is a great diplomat, and he knows better then putting his foot in his mouth in such sensitive matters. 

And my Pakistani brothers, as you soon will realize, there is really nothing worth celebrating about what he said. 

Anyway, here it is: 
Opps, I'm not allowed to post URLs to other sites until i have made 15 posts more! What to do?

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## Gandhi G in da house

heyheyhey said:


> Sat Sri Akal
> 
> I have been reading news etc on defence.pk for a couple of years now. Not been so interested in participating in any debates, as most of them just end up being the usual dick-measuring-contests (I know a lot of Pakistanis here claim that this forum is better then other Pakistani/Indian forums: maybe that used to be true a couple of years back, but honestly I dont see much difference anymore, which I sad because it used to be good.)
> 
> Anyway, the reason I decided to make my first post was because the heading-title of this topic caught my attention, being a Norwegian of Indian (Punjabi) origin. The article posted by UnitedPak is quite misleading, and a perfect example of what the members here call cherry-picking.
> 
> Jonas Gahr Støre said nothing controversial from Indian POV. The Kashmir conflict is not something that has been getting a lot attention in the local media here in Norway; even the unrest a couple of months back in J&K hardly made it to the news. (Some Norwegian-Pakistani-members here can probably confirm that)
> 
> And this speech (It was not even a speech that the government initiated; the Minister of Foreign Affairs, JGS, was simply answering a question raised by a fellow MP in the Norwegian parliament), I only heard about in this forum; it has not been mentioned in the media here at all.
> 
> Anyway, Im posting a link to the official cite of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, where the whole transcript of Jonas Gahr Støres speech is given. People should read what he said, instead of relying on some biased articles. Unfortunately the speech is only available in Norwegian, but Google translate is quite accurate when it comes to translating from Norwegian to English.
> 
> I could have highlighted the sections of special interest, but then I would be accused of doing a little bit of cherry-picking my self, wouldnt I?
> 
> And please, to my Indian brothers, stop bashing my country. Jonas Gahr Støre is a great diplomat, and he knows better then putting his foot in his mouth in such sensitive matters.
> 
> And my Pakistani brothers, as you soon will realize, there is really nothing worth celebrating about what he said.
> 
> Anyway, here it is:
> Opps, I'm not allowed to post URLs to other sites until i have made 15 posts more! What to do?



dont post the url, just mention the web page. someone else can find it and post it for you


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## heyheyhey

Since i cant post the link, i will instead give you guys the "speech".
Remember, its translated with Google translate, so some mistakes are there. If something sound totally wrong, i can help translate.

here you go:

Oversettelse fra norsk (bokmål) til engelsk
Posts in interpellation debate on Kashmir Parliament, 16 November 2010

Interpellation from the representative Knut Arild Hareide (Christian Democrats) to Foreign Minister:
The conflict over control of Kashmir since 1989 has resulted in 80 000-100 000 people have died. Local leaders in Kashmir have expressed that the conflict in the region can no longer be solved through bilateral talks between India and Pakistan, and they have urged the international community to play a more active role. More and more observers also point to the relationship between the situation in Kashmir and Afghanistan. Many argue that it would be impossible to create stability in Afghanistan until we have resolved the question of Kashmir's future. What is the Foreign Minister's assessment of the Norwegian and Nordic opportunities to contribute to the global community increasingly give priority to put pressure on the parties to find a solution to the conflict in Kashmir, and the extent to see the Foreign Minister of Norway's efforts in Afghanistan in the context of the work of a peaceful solution in Kashmir? "

Checked against the performance

Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Støre main post:

I would first like to thank the representative Hareide for an interpellation about a topic that does not often arrive in the debate, but which nonetheless are crucial - for the people in and around Kashmir, the support here in Norway and for the complex and conflict-ridden region of Kashmir is a part.

I would also like to commend the representative of a good, detailed questions, which also contained a lot of analysis, which I will join.

Kashmir has been the subject of conflict between India and Pakistan for more than 60 years and led to more wars, and, as the representative said, has been one of the most dangerous conflicts that the world has had to deal with in recent years. After some years with a greater degree of stability and positive development, the situation since last summer again deteriorated.

As the representative describes the violence has increased since June last year. In the period from June to September, more than 110 civilians killed in the Indian-controlled portion of Kashmir. Many of them were older.

I share interpellantens concern over this development. Also the Indian government regrets the situation. Norway considers that human rights standards to be followed by all countries, of course, also of India. Young people who throw stones should not be met by sharp shots. It is also worth recalling that we have equally high expectations that human rights be fully respected in Pakistan.

The background to this current situation is complex: Terror groups have for years been trained in Pakistani-controlled Kashmir. They have crossed the de facto border, called the control line, and carried out attacks in Indian-controlled Kashmir. This has at times occurred with the support of the Pakistani army.

India has built an extensive military presence in Indian-controlled Kashmir, and Pakistan a similar presence on their side of the border. There is great frustration among Kashmir's population over a political situation that seems to be stuck. It is also high unemployment in Kashmir, especially among youth. The new riots in the autumn is that these mainly occurred locally in Indian Kashmir.

Beyond the conflict that affects the people in the region, putting the Kashmir tension between nuclear powers India and Pakistan on the tip. It does, of course, conflict extra dangerous.

Norway is following the situation in Kashmir, not least through our embassies in New Delhi and Islamabad. We discuss the conflict in our conversations, both with governments and others in both countries, something I have done during my visit. The embassy in New Delhi has taken up the situation in Kashmir with the Indian authorities, both at central level and with state authorities. The Embassy participated in a joint Nordic delegation to Kashmir in April this year. As was discussed policy issues - including the conditions for human rights - both representatives of state authorities and the police.

In these conversations, we have urged both parties to seek to resolve the conflict by peaceful means and help to avoid new waves of violence, and that local residents' wishes and views should be given considerable weight in a future solution of the conflict. We believe such visits, which draws attention to the conflict and empowering local and central authorities. We have also emphasized that Pakistan and India must work to normalize the overall bilateral relationship, and develop contacts and cooperation between the two countries, regardless of the dispute over Kashmir's future. Increased cooperation between India and Pakistan will be beneficial for both countries' economic development and help to build confidence between them.

Although I fully share the concern for the situation in Kashmir, there are also some positive features: first, the cycle of violence now seems to have slowed. The Indian Prime Minister Singh has repeatedly made it clear that the only path to lasting peace and development in Kashmir is through dialogue. A delegation of representatives of all leading parties in the Indian parliament - including opposition parties - visited Kashmir in September this year. Indian authorities have presented a peace plan for eight points after this broad delegation trip. While not all parties in Kashmir are satisfied with the plan, it represents, in our opinion, an important step in the right direction, namely back to the dialogue track.

Release of detained youth who have participated in demonstrations and stone-throwing, is another step in the right direction. It is further established a negotiating team consisting of representatives of civil society. Some separatistgrupperingene do not want to talk with these representatives, but it is still too early to write off this new dialogue track.

Second, the negotiations between India and Pakistan at a senior level has started again. These began in 2004 but was shelved after the terrorist attacks in Mumbai in November 2008 - an estimate that was planned and executed from Pakistani territory, and as such are linked to groups that have operated out of Kashmir. These negotiations have over the years resulted in positive, confidence-building measures between India and Pakistan. We now hope that India and Pakistan seizes opportunities to use this negotiating track to move forward in efforts to resolve the outstanding border issues, which go beyond the Kashmir issue.

Thirdly, it appears that international human rights organizations can once again get to visit Kashmir after the area has been closed to these organizations for some time. The organization Human Rights Watch visited Kashmir with a delegation in August this year.

We should not underestimate the influence that Indian media. The situation in Kashmir will be reviewed daily, and all information helps to educate the public and the debates in this great democracy India on challenges and possible solutions.

So the sum of this is that we can only hope that the parties build on the positive developments which after all is to track, to create a lasting peace in Kashmir and a lasting peace between India and Pakistan. And if this was not the top, directly advertised, during Obama's visit, we are well aware that the U.S. administration has this high on their agenda in the dialogues respectively India and Pakistan.

I have previously spoken in this chamber is clear that the international community - including Norway - must do what we can to encourage positive developments in relations between India and Pakistan - and a final solution to the countries' conflict over the territory. At the same time that the countries themselves, India and Pakistan, who must take the necessary steps to resolve the conflict among themselves. A solution can not be imposed from outside. Pakistan and India have also agreed that a solution for the whole of Kashmir - on both sides of the border - would have found through bilateral negotiations, known as the Simla Agreement of 1972.

Today, there are considerable differences of opinion as to what should be the original Kashmir's future. Indian Kashmir has democracy and elections within the framework of the Indian state. The original Pakistani-controlled Kashmir is divided into three parts: first, the Gilgit-Baltistan, which is incorporated in Pakistan, then Azad Kashmir, who according to Pakistan is an independent Kashmir, and a third part, which Pakistan has ceded to China, Aksai Chin. At the same holds both Indian and Pakistani Kashmir separatist group seeking independence for a united Kashmir.

It appears from the Indian side held that their willingness to enter into negotiations with Pakistan is conditional on the country's determination to prevent Pakistani territory used to plan and carry out attacks against India. The negotiation process is therefore fragile. However, there are no alternatives to such negotiations, and the international community must support them fully. It also applies to the United Nations, the representative was right on.

At last: Interpellanten points out that many claim that "it will be impossible to create stability in Afghanistan until we have resolved the question of Kashmir's future."

It is obvious that the conflicts in the Middle East, Iraq, Afghanistan and Kashmir have had, and have a mobilizing effect against certain groups in the Afghan conflict. We have seen that radical Islamists have fought in many of these conflicts. And we can also see traces of the conflicts from Kashmir lifted into the Afghan territory and actually be fought there as part of fighting also between India and Pakistan.

But that being said, I think we should be cautious about drawing the conclusion that peace in a region, or in one of these countries are directly dependent on the solution in another. A positive development in one or more of the aforementioned areas of conflict can certainly contribute to some extent to curb the conflict in other areas, but there is no control here. At the same time we can only wish peace in these areas and be sure that it will affect psychologically in a region that is characterized by many conflicts. But the causes are, as I have pointed out, many and complex. I also discussed the issue of Afghanistan and regional stability with my colleagues during my trip to the region earlier this year.

Until recently, about Norway's role: When it comes to negotiations, my experience in traveling in the region has been that I am of Pakistani representatives often urged that Norway should undertake a mediation role between Pakistan and India. The clear call to be as clearly met by a clear message to India that this is a bilateral issue. If one is to play such a role, whether you are qualified for it, it must be desired from both sides. I feel that India is very clear that it is the bilateral track, the bilateral political contact, which here must get results. However, Norway will be keen to contribute in that way we can, although there is no basis for any Norwegian involvement as a mediator or facilitator in this area. We are also in contact with the countries in the region, not least in relation to the U.S..

*****

Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Støre reply Post:

I'm not here and now in a position to, nor willing, to point to India with a special responsibility. I want to use the wording that the parties, and I mean India and Pakistan - and I will also emphasize the importance of pull with the people of Kashmir - is responsible. One can, when you listen to the Indian representatives, have made a fairly systematic case that exposes India's challenge of terrorism, illegal units from the Pakistani area, which puts Indian security forces on a difficult task. You can also listen to the Pakistani representations that show a lack of progress towards clarified the status of Kashmir and violence by the security authorities. I think that pointing out that one of the parties has a particular responsibility, actually weakens our ability to push both parties.

I think that that is the way to go now, the two tracks. One is that what I interpret as a clear willingness by the Indian Prime Minister, namely, to continue the dialogue between India and Pakistan and make it into a broader and more binding, deeper political track should continue - hopefully without the interruptions that the terrorist attack Mumbai led to. It must not happen again. At the same time Pakistan must also demonstrate in practice that groups from Kashmiri areas, which in turn affects India. In other words: Both sides have a rich agenda to take hold of each side to create both confidence and progress.

So I think, as the representative says that it is important to have international attention on the issue, the UN, in a regional context and in relation to the U.S. - but also other actors in the region. This reminds me of Afghanistan, you do not get a solution to the specific conflict without the neighboring countries around with and build up under it. So, yes, the responsibility of the parties, but I do not think it will serve this development that Norway chose one of the parties and said that it had a special responsibility. They must succeed together that this question will come closer to a solution.

*****

Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Støre's closing statement:

Let me again thank interpellanten for having raised this question. So I would ask a counter question, as a summary. Why in the world, Norwegian parliamentarians in peaceful Oslo, Norway in a peaceful, focused on this conflict up the mountainous areas in the region that we have talked about? Why do we spend time and commitment to it, put us into the conflict, engage in it?

Yes, it is for the simple reason that it affects a large number of people that it's easy to get close to and - shall we say - with empathy. It builds on that we have a political understanding of this conflict's impact on a much wider conflict pattern in the region, and, in the latter sense, as parliament and government, we understand that the developments in Kashmir, indeed, may have implications for our own security in a world where so much hangs together. From the analysis we can lead back to that there is a commitment in Norway, among many Norwegians, in this chamber, again in separate groups and also in government, to do what Norway can to contribute to this conflict also comes in on the right track.

I think that much of the analysis here today has been good in the direction of the parties' responsibilities are emphasized, in the sense that we have an international right to focus on this. It follows up another debate, about whether there is interference in the internal affairs of other countries that engage in issues related to human rights, refugees, atrocities, the spread of unrest and terror. No, we can not look at it as interference in internal affairs. It's actually affairs of the region and the world as a whole.

I can say that we in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, at our embassies in the relevant countries - they are more than two - but especially in India and Pakistan and through the various international fora in which we participate, will continue to focus on this conflict and have contact with Parliament on the follow-up.


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## heyheyhey

Thanks, you can search for the speech at regjeringen.no


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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Srinagar: Emphasizing the need of countering the misleading propaganda of Indian government and media vis-&#65533;-vis the Kashmir situation, Hurriyat Conference (M) Wednesday said it would gear up efforts to apprise the Indian public about the gross human rights violations and infringement of political and religious rights of Kashmiris.

In this regard, the amalgams chairman, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and senior leader, Bilal Gani Lone today left for Chandigarh to attend a seminar, on November 25, titled Jammu and Kashmir problem with reference to Indo-Pak relation. The seminar has been organized by Internationalist Democratic Party, a Chandigarh based non-governmental organization.

Besides the seminar in Chandigarh, the two Hurriyat leaders are also scheduled to attend another seminar, Jammu and Kashmir the way forward in Kolkatta, the capital of West Bengal. The seminar has been organized by a local non- governmental organization, Centre for Peace and Progress a spokesman of the amalgam said.

The Hurriyat leaders, the spokesman said, will also meet the envoys of Organisation of Islamic Countries and Muslim and Western countries in New Delhi. The envoys would be apprised in a detailed manner about the curbs imposed on the political and religious rights of Kashmiris and would be urged to use their influence and pressurize India to put an immediate end to the unabated human rights violations committed by its forces in Kashmir, the spokesman added.

The spokesman said that while the while word knew about the Kashmir issue, the Indian government and a section of Indian media were distorting the historical facts about the Kashmir dispute and keeping the Indian public in ignorant about the worst kind of human rights violations committed against Kashmiris by government forces.

The need of the hour, therefore, is to take all practical steps to inform the Indian public, civil Society and justice loving orgsanisations about the present situation in Kashmir and seek their support for our cause, the spokesman said. (PBI)


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## Gandhi G in da house

Stuff like this makes India a true democracy because this can only happen in one.

About mirwaiz , India people are patriots , this wont make a difference plus he will be grilled with questions about kashmiri minorities . Won't work. He will have to try something different.

The only person it will work on is Dhoti roy .

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## CaptainJackSparrow

*Neither Azad Nor Kashmir​*
While emphasising the involvement of Pakistan in any initiative on Jammu & Kashmir, Centre-appointed interlocutors recently expressed a desire to involve the people and leadership of Pakistan-administered J&K (PAJK) in the resolution process. It is an idea that has remained integral to several official as well as civil society initiatives between India and Pakistan.

While the Indian side of J&K has hogged international attention for the recent youth unrest, there seems to be a paucity of scholarship and information about the political, ethnic and economic aspects of PAJK.

The region known as 'Azad Kashmir' in Pakistan has a population of more than three million and comprises one-third of the erstwhile princely state of J&K. At the world stage, the region has come into focus during the 2005 earthquake or as one of the bases of militant outfits like the Lashkar. However, the region's impact on South Asian politics and even outside has remained a less studied subject of contemporary scholarship, though it has one of the largest South Asian diasporas living in Britain which has played a central role in internationalising the Kashmir issue since the early 1990s.

Some sections of the Pakistani and pro-Pakistan PAJK elite have often marketed PAJK as an independent state. PAJK, officially known as "Azad (independent) Jammu and Kashmir" in Pakistan, has its own Supreme Court, high court, flag and legislative assembly comprising 49 members, of whom 41 are directly elected and eight are nominated by the government. The head of the government in PAJK is known as prime minister and the head of the state is designated as president.

In January 2006, Sardar Abdul Qayuum Khan, the former president of PAJK and father of the region's current prime minister, Attique Khan, told me at Muzaffarabad that the struggle of his party, the Muslim Conference, would continue till the Indian side of J&K gets the same degree of political freedom as he enjoyed in his own region.

Some of the basic myths about PAJK need to be demolished before discussing the politics of the region. The region is quite distinct from the Kashmir valley and the majority of the people are Pothwari-speaking, which on the Indian side is referred to as Pahari. Except religion, linguistically and ethnically there is hardly anything in common between the Kashmir valley and PAJK.

In January 2009, Sardar Attique Khan, the then prime minister of PAJK, blamed the loss of his majority in the legislative assembly on the Pakistani state and remarked that democracy has been slaughtered. More than a year later, Attique Khan is back again as the prime minister of the region.

Farooq Haider, the deposed prime minister, accused the Pakistan Peoples Party-led federal government of uniting with his political rivals in the state, which resulted in his resignation. This is the third time in the last four years that the sitting prime minister has lost his majority in the assembly.

An objective study will better explain the patron-client relationship between the ruling Pakistani elite and the PAJK political elite. In 1949, the Muslim Conference, one of the political outfits in J&K, was recognised as the permanent representative of PAJK, with powers to strike agreements with the sovereign country of Pakistan. It was seen as a political reward for the Muslim Conference, a political outfit that supported J&K's accession to Pakistan in its July 1947 executive body session at Srinagar. In the political system that existed from 1947 to 1960, the person at the helm of the Muslim Conference was nominated as the president of PAJK. The major constitutional change came in 1970 when adult franchise was introduced to elect the president. In 1974, the parliamentary system was introduced in PAJK.

The democratic leadership of Pakistan continued the tradition of military dispensation to bring arbitrary executive changes in the region. *In 1990, PAJK prime minister Mumtaz Rathore was 'escorted' to Islamabad in a helicopter and forced to sign a letter of resignation by the Nawaz Sharif government.*

Moreover, there are visible contradictions between the Pakistani and PAJK constitutions. For instance, *Article 257 of the Pakistani constitution holds that the "people of Jammu and Kashmir will define their relationship with Pakistan after obtaining freedom". However, under section 5(2)(vii) of the PAJK Legislative Assembly Election Ordinance 1970, "a person will be disqualified for propagating any opinion or action in any manner prejudicial to the ideology of Pakistan, the ideology of state's accession to Pakistan or the sovereignty and integrity of Pakistan". The Islamabad-based "Azad Jammu and Kashmir Council" is headed by the prime minister of Pakistan. This key institutional body shapes the economic policy of the region.*

The post-1990 phase has opened up space for new political players in the region with demands for democratisation and respect for autonomy of the region's institutions by the federal government. Any developments in this respect will impact Pakistan's Kashmir policy, which has defined the country's overall strategic and tactical calculations since its creation. The understanding of various aspects relating to PAJK, a less studied subject, and other factors in Pakistan is a prerequisite for any constructive and result-oriented dialogue between India and Pakistan.

The writer is the author of a book based on field study in Pakistan and Pakistan-administered Jammu & Kashmir.

Neither Azad Nor Kashmir - The Times of India


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## CaptainJackSparrow

*Old India itch gives Pak a red face in UN​*
New York, Nov. 22: A politically correct effort by the United Nations to mollify Islamabad for what its top diplomat here peevishly described as an inadvertent omission of Kashmir from the annual report of the Security Council has, in fact, made Pakistan the laughing stock in the world body.

The conciliatory gesture by Farhan Haq, acting deputy spokesperson for the UN secretary-general last week has, instead, drawn attention to documents revealing that Pakistan has surreptitiously kept alive at the UN Hyderabads merger with India and the secession of East Pakistan to form Bangladesh.

An Arab diplomat at the UN, who would normally have been sympathetic to Islamabad exclaimed that not many people even in Pakistan any longer remember that there was once a dispute between newly-independent India and Pakistan over how Hyderabad became a part of India.

Reflecting a popular view among the UNs membership, he regretted that Pakistan has now been caught misusing the outdated and obsolete procedures at the UN to keep alive its obsession with India and in the process weaken the credibility of the UN as a body which ought to be dealing with genuine, current threats to peace instead of a single countrys hobby horses.

The unexpected and rapid turn of events here stemmed from a complaint by Pakistans acting permanent representative to the UN, Amjad Hussain Sial, in the General Assembly a fortnight ago that an inadvertent omission in the annual report of the Security Council had left out Kashmir as one of the oldest disputes on agenda of the Security Council.

Responding to a predictable uproar in Pakistan that Kashmir is no longer on the Councils agenda, Haq told reporters that the Indo- Pakistan dispute, by a decision of the Council, remains on the list for this year of issues which have not been eliminated altogether from its purview.

But Haqs helpful gesture towards Pakistan has actually opened a Pandoras Box for Asif Ali Zardaris fragile government in Islamabad, whose diplomats are now scurrying to overcome the embarrassment caused for them at the UN from a logical fallout of Haqs clarification.

Haq quoted from Security Council documents to bolster a firm assertion by Pakistans permanent representative to the UN here, Abdullah Hussain Haroon that the (current) president of the Security Council... the UK, is amply clear on the subject and is cognisant of the matter.

Haroon, who is under severe criticism from hardliners in Pakistan for his civility and a working relationship in dealings with the Indian mission to the UN, issued an urgent appeal from Karachi to all concerned not to speculate unnecessarily upon the subject in an effort to quell the uproar.

But matters are only likely to get worse for Haroon and his foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi on this issue because the documents quoted by the UN spokesperson reveal that the last time the Security Council took Kashmir into account in any of its deliberations was in November 1965.

The document, an annual statement by the secretary-general on matters of which the Security Council is seized and on the stage reached in their consideration, has two parts.

The first part is commonly known as the seizure list because it lists items, which the Security Council has been seized of at some point in the last three years. That active list of the Councils agenda does not mention Jammu and Kashmir even by implication.

An Indian diplomat here joked that he was not surprised that this years seizure list is causing seizures in Pakistan because it is clear that the UN is no longer seized of the Kashmir issue. No country other than Pakistan is interested in it and even Islamabad has been unable to raise it in the Security Council.

A second part of the document sets out those items which were identified in the summary statement for 2009 as matters of which the Security Council was seized and which have not been considered by the Council at a formal meeting during the (last) three-year period.

It explains that the list indicates the date on which each item was first taken up by the Council at a formal meeting, and the date of the most recent formal Council meeting held on that item.

It amply makes clear that the India-Pakistan question  since Kashmir in not mentioned by name even here  was first brought before the Council in January 1948 and has not figured on the Security Councils active agenda since November 1965.

Pakistans desperation to somehow bring Kashmir back on the UNs agenda is, therefore, understandable since it is an issue that every other country considers as a dead letter.

In 2008, in an effort to streamline the work of the UN and to make the Security Council more effective, it was decided that items which have not been considered by the Council at a formal meeting during the (previous) three-year period would be completely removed from its purview.

Accordingly, at the beginning of this year, secretary-general Ban Ki-moon sent out a circular which mentioned Jammu and Kashmir among the items due for such deletion unless at least one UN member requested otherwise by February 28.

On January 7, Pakistans permanent representative shot off a letter to the secretary-general and the president of the Security Council demanding that the so-called India-Pakistan question be retained for another year. No other country was interested in such retention.

Haroons letter also demanded that the dispute over Hyderabad and the situation in the Indian sub-continent in 1971 should remain under the purview of the Council.

By stating the legalistic position on Kashmir, Haq may have hoped to give Pakistani diplomats here some room for manoeuvre. But what it has achieved is to expose the severe limits of Pakistans diplomacy at the UN and to highlight the anachronism of its unforgiving antagonism to India even on matters which the rest of the world considers as settled.

The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | Old India itch gives Pak a red face in UN


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## Jackdaws

Self-delete


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## CaptainJackSparrow

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## Jackdaws

Pakistan did what it had to do out of domestic compulsions. Can you imagine how the opposition and perhaps Army would have ravaged Pakistan Govt. if they had not reacted in the way they did?


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Geelani: India is at war with Kashmiris​*
TopNews 
Written by KMS 
Wednesday, 24 November 2010 15:11 







Srinagar, November 24, 2010: All Parties Hurriyat Conference Chairman (APHC), Syed Ali Shah Geelani has said that India is at war with innocent Kashmiri of Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK) and using all its resources to suppress their liberation movement.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani in a statement issued in Srinagar said that even aged people and children were being booked under the Indian black laws and youth being subjected to third degree torture in various jails.

We would hold marches, rallies and protests against such atrocities, but the authorities have closed all such door on us and we are left with no option but strikes to decry this oppression, Syed Ali Shah Geelani had said.

The APHC Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani urged the people to march towards Eidgah in Srinagar on Friday after Juma prayers to build a memorial wall in memory of the innocent civilians killed in the valley during past five months. He also called for a complete shutdown on Saturday.

Earlier, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, while talking to a two-member Canadian delegation, that met him at his Hyderpora residence, said that appointment of interlocutors by New Delhi was a futile exercise and an attempt to hoodwink the international community. He urged India to give up its rigidity and accept Kashmir as a disputed territory.

The APHC Chairman Syed Ali Shah Geelani had maintained that it is moral responsibility of the international community to help resolve the Kashmir dispute in accordance with the Kashmiris aspirations. He told the Canadian delegation that Kashmir was not a territorial dispute between India and Pakistan but was the question of future of millions of Kashmiri people.

It was India which took the issue of Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK) to the United Nations and six decades have passed but promises made with the Kashmiris have not been fulfilled yet, he added. Syed Ali Shah Geelani informed the Canadian delegation that peaceful movement of Kashmiris was dealt with brute force by India and its troops.

The All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) leader, Nayeem Ahmad Khan has said that the matchless and unprecedented sacrifices of Kashmiri people will be written in golden words in history.

Nayeem Ahmad Khan, while addressing different gatherings in Tangmarg where he had gone to express solidarity with the family members of the youth recently killed by Indian armed forces during peaceful demonstrations, reaffirmed the Kashmiris resolve to continue liberation struggle against India till its logical conclusion.

He said that it was due to the sacrifices of Kashmiri people that the international community had realised the urgency of peaceful settlement of the Kashmir dispute. He said that the ongoing movement had shifted to new generation of the Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK), adding that India should give up its rigid stance on OSJK and come forward to resolve the dispute so that permanent peace could be established in the region.

The Jammu and Kashmir Peoples Movement (JKPM), a constituent of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, has said that India can no longer prolong its illegal occupation of Jammu and Kashmir by using brute force against innocent Kashmiris.

APHC leader and the JKPM Chairman, Ghulam Ahmed Mir in a statement in Jammu said that the international community should make India realize that resolution of the Kashmir dispute was vital for the peace and development in South Asia.

He called upon the Muslim world to respond to the appeal made by the Iranian supreme leader, Khamenei to extend its support to the Kashmiris, who were being subjected to the worst kind of oppression and suppression by India troops just for demanding their inalienable right of Self-Determination.

Leader of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC), Mukhtar Ahmad Waza has said that the Kashmir dispute can be resolved through tripartite talks amongst Pakistan, India and the genuine Kashmiri leadership.

Mukhtar Waza in a statement issued in Srinagar said that Kashmir was a political problem and needed a political solution in accordance with its historical perspective and aspirations of the Kashmiris.

He said that the unresolved Kashmir dispute was a potential threat to the peace and stability of south Asian region. He condemned the worst kind of human rights violations in Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK) territory by Indian armed forces and said that such tactics could not prevent the people of Kashmir from continuing their just struggle for right of Self-Determination.

Geelani: India is at war with Kashmiris

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## CaptainJackSparrow

India is and will always be at war with those who seek to break the country apart. 

*@ Geelani:* Only with you and a few thousand deluded people of the valley.

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## Capt.Popeye

Captain Popeye: Correction, India is at war with separatists and insurgents.

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## JonAsad

Let us get out of this WoT, and we will again make Kashmir a burning issue, like it was in the 90's


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## graphican

Capt.Popeye said:


> Captain Popeye: Correction, India is at war with separatists and insurgents.



Thats right.. India is at war with its fears and wants to hold the ones with power who it cannot convince with reasoning.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

graphican said:


> Thats right.. India is at war with its fears and wants to hold the ones with power who it cannot convince with reasoning.



You guys tried convincing TTP in Swat na by offering them a peace deal?

What happened?

Laaton ke bhoot, baaton se nahin maante.

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## JanjaWeed

oh well.. same old c$&p recycled under different headlines by the thread starter.. guys don't waste your time discussing this...

Haathi chale bazaar, khutte Bhonke hazaar!!!

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## Vajra_Yuddh

HAHA! The poor chap either doesn't know the meaning of war or his understanding is seriously doubtful. He calls this as war? . Such a small thinking.


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## graphican

smartindian said:


> where is the question of war, when kashmir is integral part of India, we are at war with pakistani sponsored terrorist who get trained in pakistan.



Kehne se integral baj jaye to sare Pakistan hi aaj India ho jaye.. Its still disputed territory but never mind my friend..

I actually agree "laton ke bhoot baton se nahi mante.."


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## somebozo

the whole of kashmir and jammu is highly diverse with dozen of different languages spoken. The case made to discredit Pakistan in above article fails miserably! end of the day the AJK retains it sense of identity and culture while the Indian side is being forced to "indianize"


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## Vajra_Yuddh

graphican said:


> Kehne se integral baj jaye to sare Pakistan hi aaj India ho jaye.. Its still disputed territory but never mind my friend..
> 
> I actually agree "laton ke bhoot baton se nahi mante.."


But the reality is, we don't want Pakistan anymore. Even the RSS-CIA-MOSSAD-Bajrang Dal-VHP-SS etc don't want Pakistani territory even if you offer it on a platter. 

The state of J&K is the only issue and if your side accepts us, we can be really good neighbours. Before you mock 'good neighbour' word, I'd like to add that I am a Bhutanese national from my mother's side; so trust me: India can become a very good neighbour if conditions are right.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Capt.Popeye said:


> Captain Popeye: Correction, India is at war with separatists and insurgents.



india treats protestors in same league as the afore-mentioned by default, as majority Kashmiris resent indian occupation


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## graphican

Vajra_Yuddh said:


> But the reality is, we don't want Pakistan anymore. Even the RSS-CIA-MOSSAD-Bajrang Dal-VHP-SS etc don't want Pakistani territory even if you offer it on a platter.
> 
> The state of J&K is the only issue and if your side accepts us, we can be really good neighbours. Before you mock 'good neighbour' word, I'd like to add that I am a Bhutanese national from my mother's side; so trust me: India can become a very good neighbour if conditions are right.



Vajra_Yuddh,
We have lived generations after generations along-with people in India and we know what mindset they have but thanks for attempting and trying to show the good picture of India which you see. Our lense is slightly different because of historical and contemporary issues. Just to give you an idea, the same good neighbor stopped our water during the cultivation season and gave us gift of food inflation. 

Our definition of friend is friendship with dignity, respect and equality which we never received so matters aren't as "changeable" as you imagine they would because of Kashmir alone.


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## Vajra_Yuddh

> We have lived generations after generations along-with people in India and we know what mindset they have but thanks for attempting and trying to show the good picture of India which you see. Our lense is slightly different because of historical and contemporary issues. Just to give you an idea, the same good neighbor stopped our water during the cultivation season and gave us gift of food inflation.



Did I forget to tell you that I am Indian from my dad's side? Your thinking is twisted by your leaders because the whole reason to encourage you to leave your homes and form another nation was based on doing, believing, hating and not understanding everything we do. This blame goes to your leaders not to us.

We didn't initiate the war on the state of J&K; your pakhtoon tribesmen did. So what were you expecting us to do? Sit and do nothing?

What about the militancy that you have been gifting our people for last 25 years? You can reject every allegation just to please yourself but that won't wash the blot away. 

What are u talking about water blocking? Your interior minister himself said that water shortage is due to mismanagement. Now call him our paid agent too because you will only deny what any Indian will say. That is the core of your existence as a separate state. To do everything opposite of what we do.



> Our definition of friend is friendship with dignity, respect and equality which we never received so matters aren't as "changeable" as you imagine they would because of Kashmir alone.



Respect we can but not retaliate we cannot. From the latest proof of your one-sided attack was Kargil. We only responded. What do you expect us to do? you violate Geneva conventions on treating prisoners of war badly, you attack our hills and try to take them over and finally when none of this works, use religion as an ideology to create insurgency.

You have done what you think was right; we are doing what we think is right. In short, the war is only your choice; not ours. However, that doesn't mean we will not defend without mercy.

Indian military's stand is clear; no initiation from our side for anything; but definitely we be the ones to finish any risen conflict.

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## MYSTIC

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> india treats *protestors* in same league as the afore-mentioned by default, as majority Kashmiris resent indian occupation



stone pelting separatist...

India looked for answers to its north. Guess what it works?

Shouldn't happen but it works? the violence is down in the valley since the armed separatist have been crushed. What does it mean? who has been created all the ruckus in the valley. Not the armed forces.


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## DesiGuy

just chill everybody. it's just war of words between politicians. it's none of civilians business!!!


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## A1Kaid

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> India is and will always be at war with those who seek to break the country apart.
> 
> *@ Geelani:* Only with you and a few thousand deluded people of the valley.





Thank you for admitting that, that India is at war with the people who believe in right to self determination.


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## DesiGuy

A1Kaid said:


> Thank you for admitting that, that India is at war with the people who believe in *right to self determination.*




that's what you believe. luckily, Not everyone shares same belief as you. : )


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## Prometheus

Just saw on news ......a Kashmiri separatist leader Mirwaiz is thrashed by Sikhs and Kashmiri Pandits in Punjab.............

Lol................holding a Anti-India seminar in Punjab...............Has he gone mad...................
I bet he will remember the beating and will fear after seeing any Sikh

have a nice stay in hospital

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## raw@war

Prometheus said:


> Just saw on news ......a Kashmiri separatist leader Mirwaiz is thrashed by Sikhs and Kashmiri Pandits in Punjab.............
> 
> Lol................holding a Anti-India seminar in Punjab...............Has he gone mad...................
> I bet he will remember the beating and will fear after seeing any Sikh
> 
> have a nice stay in hospital





Punjab: Kashmiri Pandits attack Hurriyat leader Mirwaiz-News-Videos-The Times of India

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## Kunwar

What an idiot


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## SpArK

Good..
its payback time.


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## INDIAN007

*Love It Man --   *

Wish syed Gelani would have been In place Of Mirwaiz - Btw boht acche se Pita aur Pitna chahiye tha

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## Kunwar

I really hope someone "accidently"  kicked his head so he doesn't have to suffer his dillusional thoughts anymore

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## Markus

Mirwaiz is a moderate.

Such treatment should be melted out everyday to the hardliners like Geelani instead.

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## Prometheus

INDIAN007 said:


> *Love It Man --   *
> 
> Wish syed Gelani would have been In place Of Mirwaiz - Btw boht acche se Pita aur Pitna chahiye tha



when is Geelani coming to Punjab???????


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## INDIAN007

Loved The Way Every1 Was shouting ' Bharat Mata Ki jay ' while beating him

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## INDIAN007

Prometheus said:


> when is Geelani coming to Punjab???????



Abhi Toh Galti Se Bhi Nahi Ayega


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## roach

I lol'd
A good reality check for the man, keep the Azadi BS to the Valley or Jantar Mantar in the company of Arundhati Roy and her kind, not the real India.


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## Kunwar

roach said:


> I lol'd
> A good reality check for the man, keep the Azadi BS to the Valley or Jantar Mantar in the company of Arundhati Roy and her kind, not the real India.




Correction: * Azad Kashmir's valley* I mean it's named azad for a reason


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## LaBong

I understand the grievance of Kashmiri Pundits, but this was not a wise thing to do. If Mirwaiz came to talk, we should listen him.


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## Prometheus

Abir said:


> I understand the grievance of Kashmiri Pundits, but this was not a wise thing to do. If Mirwaiz came to talk, we should listen him.



People like him needed to be reminded after regular intervals of time...............what there freedom fighters did to the Kashmiris.


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## Kunwar

Abir said:


> I understand the grievance of Kashmiri Pundits, but this was not a wise thing to do. If Mirwaiz came to talk, we should listen him.



Driving the Kashmiri Pundits from their ancestral home 
I'm really sure the Pundits wanted to have a talk from a man who wants Kashmiris to live in the stoneage


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## Awesome

Make note supporting illegal acts of violence will not be allowed here.

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## Kunwar

Asim Aquil said:


> Make note supporting illegal acts of violence will not be allowed here.



Tell that to your fellow moaist supporters bro


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## Awesome

Mirwaiz attacked in Chandigarh | Latest news, breaking news, world news, international news and current affairs



> CHANDIGARH: Kashmiri leader and Chairman of The All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) Mirwaiz Umar Farooq was manhandled by a pundit when he was talking to audience at a seminar in the Indian city of Chandigarh.
> 
> Indian media said Farooq was attacked by a Hindu pundit while he was delivering a speech.
> 
> The APHC chief was on an awareness campaign across India pertaining to the Kashmir issue and was addressing to a seminar on human rights issue.



*Keep the thread clean.*

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## Awesome

RSS hooligans attack Mirwaiz in Chandigarh | Kashmir Media Service



> Chandigarh, November 25 (KMS): The Chairman of All Parties Hurriyet Conference, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, was attacked by the hoodlums of the Hindu communal organisation, Rashtriya Swayam Sevak Sangh in Chandigarh, today, during a seminar on Kashmir and Pak-India relations.
> 
> The attackers barged onto the stage, where Mirwaiz Umar Farooq had just started his speech and snatched mike before him.
> 
> They subjected the APHC Chairman to physical assault.
> 
> It may be mentioned here that the hooligans of Hindu extremist organizations had earlier attacked veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Gilani, and senior APHC leader, Shabbir Ahmad Shah. APHC and other pro-freedom parties have strongly condemned the attack on Mirwaiz.

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## Nair saab

His protest may be heard by poor kashmiris , who are kept at gun point by so called feedom fighters...but outside kashmir no 1 will listen to him...but should not have been beaten...cozz everyone has a right to freedom of speech in india...hope the police take strict action against the guilty...Mirwaiz Umar Farooq is a moderate hurriyat leader but geelani deserved more...


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## foxbat

Kashmiri Pandits manhandle Mirwaiz at seminar

Kashmiri Pandits manhandle Mirwaiz at seminar - Rediff.com India News

Hurriyat Conference leaders Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Bilal Lone were on Thursday manhandled allegedly by a group of Kashmiri Pandit activists who stormed a seminar being attended by them in Chandigarh. 

Commotion broke out when the group barged into the seminar hall and dashed towards the dais where the separatist leaders were seated, eyewitnesses said. 

During the pandemonium, some of the activists manhandled the two separatist leaders, they said, adding police immediately stepped in and cordoned off the dais. 

The incident took place when the Mirwaiz started addressing a seminar on Kashmir [ Images ] and Indo-Pak relations.


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## foxbat

Nair saab said:


> His protest may be heard by poor kashmiris , who are kept at gun point by so called feedom fighters...but outside kashmir no 1 will listen to him...but should not have been beaten...cozz everyone has a right to freedom of speech in india...hope the police take strict action against the guilty...Mirwaiz Umar Farooq is a moderate hurriyat leader but geelani deserved more...



Looks like they were the citizens of the same Kashmir for whom he claims he is fighting for

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## cybertron

their was high security at the event
but the attack was so spontaneous and fast that no one could stop it
every1 pounced on him

b/w in first article its given 'indian' pandit
well thats a shame coz its 'kashmiri' pandits
now with support of hindu right wing groups to the pandits i dont think seperatists would be able to hold any seminar in rest of india
event is unfortunate though


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## Mogombo

lol was this person doing in punjab dont he know anything! he got what he deserves


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## Ganguly

*Mirwaiz attacked for making anti-India speech*

Mirwaiz attacked for making anti-India speech - Politics - Politics News - ibnlive

Chandigarh: J&K separatist leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq was heckled and roughed up at a Jammu & Kashmir *seminar in Chandigrah on Thursday after he reportedly gave an anti-India speech. *

A group of Kashmiri pandits and Vishwa Hindu Parishad(VHP) supporters, who were part of the audience, were allegedly behind the fracas. 


Reacting to the incident, Jammu & Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah said, "I don't condone it. Don't have much to say, it's a reaction to Hurriyat's politics and policies."


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## cybertron

one thread closed guys 
plz keep this clean


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## Awesome

They may belong to an RSS ideology club. Anyway shows more about what all pro-India parties in the Kashmir conflict are all about. Can't silence protests, then resort to violence.

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## LaBong

Not a wise thing to do. It'll only harm Kashmiri Pundits cause and will endanger any of them(if any) still living in Kashmir. If Mirwaiz wants to talk, let's engage with him more constructively. Punches and blows won't attain anything! 

Talk, talk is so much better than war, war.


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## Awesome

Abir said:


> Not a wise thing to do. It'll only harm Kashmiri Pundits cause and will endanger any of them(if any) still living in Kashmir. If Mirwaiz wants to talk, let's engage with him more constructively. Punches and blows won't attain anything!
> 
> Talk, talk is so much better than war, war.


Not only that, no one would seriously believe that Kashmiri pandits are really Kashmiri Pandit activist. As many media outlets have already stated these hooligans belonged to RSS. So pretty much RSS is posing as Kashmiri pandits - who will check ID cards and genealogy after these incidents you can claim to be whoever, doesn't make it true.

Kashmiris no matter what their religion is, are not ones to resort to hooliganism. This is pattern of the Hindu-Right aka in India as the RSS.

And of course no arrest of the RSS would ever be made...


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## LaBong

BTW, taking a cue from last thread, do we get banned if we support the protesters?


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## LaBong

Asim Aquil said:


> Not only that, no one would seriously believe that Kashmiri pandits are really Kashmiri Pandit activist. As many media outlets have already stated these hooligans belonged to RSS. So pretty much RSS is posing as Kashmiri pandits - who will check ID cards and genealogy after these incidents you can claim to be whoever, doesn't make it true.
> 
> Kashmiris no matter what their religion is, are not ones to resort to hooliganism. This is pattern of the Hindu-Right aka in India as the RSS.
> 
> And of course no arrest of the RSS would ever be made...



Not true. There could be supporters of RSS among Kashmiri Pundits, but I don't think all Pundits are RSS or RSS posing as Pundits. There's supporters of RSS among all Hindu subgroups, Pundits aren't an exception. As far as I know, most if not all Pundits are pro-India.


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## Ganguly

Better humiliation for him was to boycott the conference with no media presence, with plenty of flowers & get well soon cards . *We are from the land of Gandhi not from land of Lakhvi. *. Please behave accordingly.

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## LaBong

Anyway, I hope Mirwaiz didn't suffer any injury. This guy is far less radicals and don't usually talk in terms of rhetoric.


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## Abhishek_

Abir said:


> BTW, taking a cue from last thread, do we get banned if we support the protesters?



If you support violent protests and vandals in kashmir, it's ok.

If you support violent protest against kashmiri separatists, you will be banned.

I for one am neutral on this subject. Hope he recovers soon.


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## ARCHON

i really want to comment on the topic on the basis of my nationality, but i hate the pink color , hence refraining.


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## rsingh

Serves him right.


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## Nalwa

Well protests against him are ok, but they shouldn't have gone physical and assaulted him. By doing that they risk losing respect and support for the cause of the Kashmiri Pandits.


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## Ammyy

Farooq attacked in Chandigarh 

Was this guy thinking before came to Chandigarh ???

Kashmiri pandit gave him what is deserve

I think he has to stick to only srinagar where those 2% paid protesters support him


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## Abhishek_

DRDO said:


> Farooq attacked in Chandigarh
> 
> Was this guy thinking before came to Chandigarh ???
> Kashmiri pandit gave him what is deserve
> I think he has to stick to only srinagar where those 2&#37; paid protesters support him



this incident will erode our credibility dude....what happened to peaceful and law abiding Indians??
Nobody is above the law, the people who assaulted this guy need to punished.

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## LaBong

I want make a note of the fact that, advocating sedition from India in Indian land(Kashmir being an exception, IPC is not applicable to them) is illegal. So Mirwaiz was indulging in an illegal activity. Not that I'm supporting the physical assault, but is supporting violent protesters, protesting against someone who's indulging in an illegal activity, a bad/unlawful act?


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## Devil Soul

Well this is not the 1st time a Kashmiri leader is being attacked while in gathering... well there is a saying 
"Never wear your best trousers when you go out to fight for freedom and truth. "


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## foxbat

cybertron said:


> their was high security at the event
> but the attack was so spontaneous and fast that no one could stop it
> every1 pounced on him
> 
> b/w in first article its given 'indian' pandit
> well thats a shame coz its 'kashmiri' pandits
> now with support of hindu right wing groups to the pandits i dont think seperatists would be able to hold any seminar in rest of india
> event is unfortunate though



No difference between Indian and Kashmiri Pandit.. The Kashmir they are refering to is within Indian borders

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## Ammyy

Abhishek_ said:


> this incident will erode our credibility dude....what happened to peaceful and law abiding Indians??
> Nobody is above the law, the people who assaulted this guy need to punished.



So any one is allowed to talk anti-India BS???? 

Why law followed only to those innocent kashmiri pandits ?????


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## Abhishek_

DRDO said:


> So any one is allowed to talk anti-India BS????
> Why law followed only to those innocent kashmiri pandits ?????



Let me clear one thing first, I do not know much about this guy but based on other people's comments he is probably a moderate. 
That said, if he makes any illegal comments, charge him and take him to jail.

Breaking his nose only increases his public image back in Kashmir and solidifies Anti-India sentiment.


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## Awesome

Abir said:


> Not true. There could be supporters of RSS among Kashmiri Pundits, but I don't think all Pundits are RSS or RSS posing as Pundits. There's supporters of RSS among all Hindu subgroups, Pundits aren't an exception. As far as I know, most if not all Pundits are pro-India.


And anyone pro-India has to resort to violence? If you have the guts, let him have his say.


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## Nair saab

The laws of the land doesn't allow this...civilians don't have the right to take law in there hand...Its an other fact that not only kashmiri pandits but also kashmiri sikhsmanhandled him...for god sake this is a democracy even hurriyat has right to protest if its nonvoilent way...but what separatist do in kashmir is paying youngsters for stone pelting 150-200rs/day...Mirwaiz is also a indian citizen so he has the right to protest in any part of india...


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## Abhishek_

Asim Aquil said:


> And anyone pro-India has to resort to violence? If you have the guts, let him have his say.



Precisely, he should be allowed to voice his opinions as long as he doesn't break the law. After all we allow Ms.Roy to say all kinds of controversial things.


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## Infinite Sapience

With the kind of politics Huriyet is playing in Kashmir, indulging in stone pelting, burning public property, it was bound to happen . Kashmiri Pandits are very angry and in words Omar Abdullah* " I don't condone it"*

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## LaBong

Asim Aquil said:


> And anyone pro-India has to resort to violence? If you have the guts, let him have his say.



Off course he is having his say. A fringe group doesn't represent all Pundits.


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## LaBong

Abhishek_ said:


> Precisely, he should be allowed to voice his opinions as long as he doesn't break the law. After all we allow Ms.Roy to say all kinds of controversial things.



Actually he kind of breaks the law. But we should let him talk and engage with him constructively.


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## Infinite Sapience

Asim Aquil said:


> And anyone pro-India has to resort to violence? If you have the guts, let him have his say.



You can judge the strength of Indian democracy from the fact that the separatist are able to hold an anti India rally in India, while Indian police is preventing India citizens from entering the rally.


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## Awesome

There you go, this is what India has earned by attacking Mirwaiz

Mirwaiz assaulted, clashes in Old City



> Srinagar: Clashes rocked several parts of the Old City in Srinagar, considered to be a stronghold of the Hurriyat Conference (M) Chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, after the news of 'assault' on him at a Chandigarh seminar spread here this afternoon.
> 
> Eyewitnesses told Kashmir Dispatch that a spontaneous shutdown was observed in old city, considered to be the bastion of Mirwaiz Umer Farooq when the news of assault on Mirwaiz by a group of *Vishwa Hindu Parishad and Panun Kashmir *activists spread this afternoon.
> 
> Groups of youth took to streets at Rajouri Kadal, Saraf Kadal, Gojwara, Kawdara and other areas of the old city and staged pro-freedom and anti-India demonstrations. Chanting &#8220;We want freedom,&#8221; &#8220;Go India Go Back,&#8221; the youth were protesting against the attack on Mirwaiz.
> 
> The protesters also clashed with the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) and police personnel who were deployed in strength in the areas. The clashes were going on when the last reports came in.
> 
> &#8220;The rumor that Mirwaiz has got injured at a function in Chandigarh is totally false. The Mirwaiz is completely safe. The miscreants have been arrested,&#8221; a police spokesman said.



It is clear that it was not just the Panun Kashmir (a Kashmiri Pandit activist group), but also the notorious Vishwa Hindu Prasad. The same terrorist organization responsible for the Gujarat Massacres.


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## Awesome

Mirwaiz has shown he has guts, I hope he keeps up his program to give his seminar in Kolkata, then Lucknow and finally Delhi as well.

He was btw, not campaigning for Azadi but giving an account of the human rights violations faced by the Kashmiris.


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## Awesome

Yesterday's news

Mirwaiz to attend seminars Lastupdate:- Thu, 25 Nov 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com



> Srinagar, Nov 24: The Hurriyat (M) on Wednesday started a *campaign to aware the people of India about the rights violations allegedly committed by the armed forces in the Valley and the need for the resolution of Kashmir issue.*
> 
> The Hurriyat (M) chairman, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Executive Council member, *Bilal Gani Lone* left for Chandigarh to attend the seminar organized by a local NGO and are expected to travel to Kolkata for attending another seminar, the party communiqu&#233; said.
> 
> Mirwaiz would also travel to *Lucknow *and *New Delhi* to attend the seminars organized by the civil society groups, it added.
> 
> The duo would also meet the envoys of Muslim countries in New Delhi to aware them about &#8220;usurping&#8221; of religious and political rights of Kashmiri Muslims by the government of India and state Government.
> 
> Talking to Greater Kashmir over phone from Chandigarh, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq said the need of hour was to aware the people of India about the reality in Kashmir.
> 
> &#8220;The people of India cannot shy away from its moral obligation of resolving Kashmir issue and India has always tried that its people see Kashmir through Pakistani prism. We want to tell them reality about Kashmir,&#8221; he said.
> 
> *Mirwaiz said some sections of media allegedly portrayed negative picture of Kashmir before the people and their efforts would be to sensitize its citizens about rights violations allegedly committed by the troopers.*
> 
> &#8220;*The aim of meeting envoys of OIC is to apprise them about religious curbs imposed on Kashmiris Muslims and seek their intervention in the matter*, &#8220;he said.


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## Infinite Sapience

Mirwaiz Umar Farooq manhandled-India-TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos


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## Vajra_Yuddh

Asim Aquil said:


> RSS hooligans attack Mirwaiz in Chandigarh | Kashmir Media Service


What a pathetic propganda against RSS and a usual attempt to malign Hindu community by Kashmir's radicals. The attack was by Kashmiri pandit community, whom this "intellectual" and his goons manhandled in 1989 and sent them packing half dead into the rest of the country under religion card. He didn't even get a tenth of what he and his goons did to Kashmiri pandits and he is already crying about it. 

Looks like Kashmiri radicals will leave no stones unturned to assault and insult Hindus. The state media of Kashmir is abusing its freedom of press.


----------



## Abhishek_

_Hurriyat Conference leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq arrives to resume his speech at a seminar in Chandigarh on Thursday. Photo: Akhilesh Kumar _

Hurriyat Conference leaders Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Bilal Lone were on Thursday manhandled allegedly by activists of right-wing Hindu organisations and Kashmiri Pandits at a seminar here after which police detained ten people.

Commotion broke out when the activists from among the audience charged at Mr. Farooq, who was seated on the dais along with Mr. Lone. At that time, a person, believed to be a journalist, had got up to put a question to the Mirwaiz.

During the pandemonium, some of the activists manhandled the two separatist leaders, eyewitnesses said, adding police immediately stepped in and cordoned off the dais.

The eyewitnesses said that in the melee, the activists punched Mr. Farooq, who fell from his chair.

Police said it has taken at least ten people into custody.

The incident comes over a month after a shoe was thrown at hardline Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani during a seminar in Delhi on October 21. The shoe missed Mr. Geelani, who was seated on the dais. The seminar had also witnessed protests by a group of people, including Kashmiri Pandits.

Commenting on the incident, Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah said, &#8220;It is a reaction to their politics and policies. And it is bound to happen. I don&#8217;t condone it... I believe it is a battle of ideas and ideologies.&#8221;

At Thursday&#8217;s seminar, the activists also smashed window panes and flower pots at the Kisan Bhawan auditorium following which police took the Hurriyat leaders to safety.

The seminar was on &#8216;Kashmir Problems in Reference to Indo-Pak Relations&#8217;, organised by Internationalist Democratic Party of Jammu and Kashmir.

The seminar resumed after the police brought the situation under control.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/other-states/article912873.ece


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## Vajra_Yuddh

Abir said:


> Off course he is having his say. A fringe group doesn't represent all Pundits.


You don't know half of what pandits and other non-Muslim communities have faced Abir. So I would suggest you don't needlessly insult them without knowledge. 

I know you have a habit of serenading aggressive talkers while silencing your own but here you lack complete knowledge.


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## Awesome

Infinite Sapience said:


> You can judge the strength of Indian democracy from the fact that the separatist are able to hold an anti India rally in India, while Indian police is preventing India citizens from entering the rally.


It would've been if India would've controlled its mobs... But with this attack Indian democracy has earned a big fat Zero.


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## Abhishek_

Asim Aquil said:


> It would've been if India would've controlled its mobs... But with this attack Indian democracy has earned a big fat Zero.


AA
Take a look at Post 40
BTW nobody bothers about your big fat Zero

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## Vajra_Yuddh

Asim Aquil said:


> It would've been if India would've controlled its mobs... But with this attack Indian democracy has earned a big fat Zero.


To you guys, we will be negative until you expect us to give you our state in platter. Sorry but the world recognizes our form of ruling with respect and we don't need to worry about 1 country out of 220 that sees us as evil.


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## AMCA

Asim Aquil said:


> It would've been if India would've controlled its mobs... But with this attack Indian democracy has earned a big fat Zero.



When We do Something You say "its not democratic, people do not have freedom", now when we do not do anything , the Itching hasnt really gone is it?? What Do You think India should do to suffice You People? Its Free Country and Anything can be done which do Not hurt the national Sentiments... These Incidents are Just misdemeanor...

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## JonAsad

Violence if done by Indians is justified, i guess.
No way extremism comes near them.


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## Abhishek_

JonAsad said:


> Violence if done by Indians is justified, i guess.
> No way extremism comes near them.



Violence is not justified. The responsible have been arrested.


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## LaBong

Vajra_Yuddh said:


> You don't know half of what pandits and other non-Muslim communities have faced Abir. So I would suggest you don't needlessly insult them without knowledge.
> 
> *I know you have a habit of serenading aggressive talkers while silencing your own but here you lack complete knowledge.*



I'm not sure why I need to face the incidents to know about it. I know it all and I want them to return to their valley. This attack will only give them bad press and endanger anyone who's still living in valley. 

About the bold part, that's because I enjoy the right to silence my own while aggressive talkers of other communities are not of my concern/embarrassment.


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## Ganguly

Duplicate. Already posted. Removed


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## AMCA

JonAsad said:


> Violence if done by Indians is justified, i guess.
> No way extremism comes near them.



Basically Its a Human Tendency to Argue for Your Beloved Until proved guilty, And Its Also a Human Tendency even If Proven Guilty the Thrashing Continues, These are a part of Cosmic law Not Specific to Indians Alone....


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## Awesome

Oh bahi, this has now been proved that the Indian position on Kashmir is just that, violent. He was merely narrating the human rights violations, not campaigning for Azadi in the Indian states.

India is wrong, Kashmiris are right. This is now set in stone.

---------- Post added at 02:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 PM ----------




Ganguly said:


> Duplicate. Already posted. Removed


Why detain the Lallu panjus, go arrest their RSS leaders.


----------



## Infinite Sapience

Asim Aquil said:


> It would've been if India would've controlled its mobs... But with this attack Indian democracy has earned a big fat Zero.



Mob ?? It was just one guy who climbed on the table and gave him a couple of slaps and he was thrown out promptly along with rest Kashmiri Pandits.

Now Mirwaiz can press charges if he wants but this something like the shoe throwing incident on Zardari. One guy lost his cool and thats about it but people can draw conspiracies out of it, that it was preplanned and right wing parties were involved.


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## LaBong

Asim Aquil said:


> Oh bahi, this has now been proved that the Indian position on Kashmir is just that, violent. He was merely narrating the human rights violations, not campaigning for Azadi in the Indian states.
> 
> India is wrong, Kashmiris are right. This is now set in stone.



He is not campaigning for Azadi, but Azadi is his stated position. So the attack has more to do with his ideology but him narrating human right violations. A lot of people including many Kashmiri Pundits have been vocal against any Human Rights violation in Kashmir.


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## Awesome

Infinite Sapience said:


> Mob ?? It was just one guy who climbed on the table and gave him a couple of slaps and he was thrown out promptly along with rest Kashmiri Pandits.
> 
> Now Mirwaiz can press charges if he wants but this something like the shoe throwing incident on Zardari. One guy lost his cool but thats about it.


Then why have 20 guys been arrested? Obviously there were more!


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## Nalwa

Asim Aquil said:


> *Oh bahi, this has now been proved that the Indian position on Kashmir is just that, violent. He was merely narrating the human rights violations, not campaigning for Azadi in the Indian states.*
> 
> India is wrong, Kashmiris are right. This is now set in stone.
> 
> 
> And how did we come to that conclusion? Just because Pakistan says so?
> 
> Its true India's approach could have been to the issue could have been better. But that doesnt mean that India has been proved wrong.


----------



## AMCA

Asim Aquil said:


> Oh bahi, this has now been proved that the Indian position on Kashmir is just that, violent. He was merely narrating the human rights violations, not campaigning for Azadi in the Indian states.
> 
> India is wrong, Kashmiris are right. This is now set in stone


.

The Term Human right Violations are Only Subjected to Democratic Nations, It is so... When there is Voice raised over it ,consider the Nation is Democratic... Other wise In How Many other Nations Have the "Human Right Activists" Survived???


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## Abhishek_

Asim Aquil said:


> Then why have 20 guys been arrested? Obviously there were more!



We have already earned a big fat zero from you, not much motivation left for us.
What should we do to satisfy your bleeding heart, do tell.


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## Infinite Sapience

Asim Aquil said:


> Then why have 20 guys been arrested? Obviously there were more!



Because when all the Pandits were thrown out of the hall, they became violent and tried forcefully renter the hall. Therefore in order to preserve public order .


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## Vajra_Yuddh

Abir said:


> He is not campaigning for Azadi, but Azadi is his stated position. So the attack has more to do with his ideology but him narrating human right violations. A lot of people including many Kashmiri Pundits have been vocal against any Human Rights violation in Kashmir.


The human rights wasn't there to save them coming out. At that time where was it? My relatives (now in Ladakh, thanks to "oppressed poor Kashmiri radicals") also suffered what the Pandits suffered. My faith from human rights has waned and I find it only a tool to appease separatists and anti-national forces in Asia, so as to keep the conflicts up. 

The commission should not be allowed in the state and warned not to meddle in national matters. 

Kashmiri radicals have no right to ask for human rights after what they did to pandits and our people who were their fellow Kashmiris. At that time religion was of supreme importance to them for ethnic cleansing. And now they speak of "Kashmiri" independence. Yeah right...


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## Awesome

AMCA said:


> .
> 
> The Term Human right Violations are Only Subjected to Democratic Nations, It is so... When there is Voice raised over it ,consider the Nation is Democratic... Other wise In How Many other Nations Have the "Human Right Activists" Survived???


The question is that he is voicing India's human rights violations against Kashmiris to Indians so that Indians may wise and prevent their government from committing them further. 

This act of violence against Mirwaiz is only to allow India to continue with its acts of human rights violations. He wasn't speaking for, against either the Pandits or the Azadi. He only pointed out the human rights violations committed by the Indian army

Furthermore I must point out one thing Human rights are accorded to everyone that is human. Not by governmental system.


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

*You can't forgot*, that

*THAT* 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits, which constituts 99&#37; of the total population of Hindus living in Muslim majority area of the Kashmir Valley, were forcibly pushed out of the Valley by Muslim terrorists, trained in Pakistan, since the end of 1989. They have been forced to live the life of exiles in their own country, outside their homeland, by unleashing a systematic campaign of terror, murder, loot and arson...*and* Kashmiri pandits were angry cause whenever there is talk about kashmir why they were excluded?? kASHMIRI PANDITS needs to be included whenever any seminar or talk about kashmir will raised.....


Although this is not the right way to protest but they were in condition of rage cause of continuel denail of there existence in kashmir by political parties of kashmir...


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## SEAL

Attack on Kashmiri leaders exposed saffron terrorism and world largest hypocrisy.



YouTube - Mirwaiz attacked in Chandigarh

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## AMCA

Asim Aquil said:


> The question is that he is voicing India's human rights violations against Kashmiris to Indians so that Indians may wise and prevent their government from committing them further.



When It comes to state of Internal Affairs the Govt is not single eyed, but the Public Cannot be diplomatic like Govt is, There anger was Even More Ignited When he Termed "Human Rights" Which Was Not Given to the Kashmiri Pandits By the so called Innocent Muslims of the Kashmir Vally , How Can You Expect the Crowd to be silent when the Guy tries to play Innocent in front of a Wounded Crowd??



Asim Aquil said:


> This act of violence against Mirwaiz is only to allow India to continue with its acts of human rights violations.



You can not Use the Term Human Right Violation here as in here Public got Violent , You dont call Mob Wars "Human Right Violation" Do you??




Asim Aquil said:


> He wasn't speaking for, against either the Pandits or the Azadi. He only pointed out the human rights violations committed by the Indian army



My dear Indian Army is Not Present in the the vally, How can You rise Questions and Displeasure against an Imagined enemy??



Asim Aquil said:


> Furthermore I must point out one thing Human rights are accorded to everyone that is human. Not by governmental system.



I agree....

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## Infinite Sapience

Asim Aquil said:


> The question is that he is voicing India's human rights violations against Kashmiris to Indians so that Indians may wise and prevent their government from committing them further.
> 
> This act of violence against Mirwaiz is only to allow India to continue with its acts of human rights violations. He wasn't speaking for, against either the Pandits or the Azadi. He only pointed out the human rights violations committed by the Indian army
> 
> Furthermore I must point out one thing Human rights are accorded to everyone that is human. Not by governmental system.



If you have followed this news closely, you would have realised the Kashmiri pandits were not angered by his remarks on human right violations but were provoked by his comments on "Kashmir is not a part of India"...there fore the slogans of "Bharat Mata ki Jai" was being continuously raised outside the hall.


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## tomtommy

mirwaiz thought he could pull a nice stunt in Chandigarh but guess it boomeranged.. ha.. nice..


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## SEAL

They were attacked by vishwa hindu pareshad saffron terrorist party not K pandits.

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## foxbat

fox said:


> Attack on Kashmiri leaders exposed saffron terrorism and world largest hypocrisy.
> 
> 
> 
> YouTube - Mirwaiz attacked in Chandigarh



A bunch of civilians with opposing ideology create a ruccus in a public meeting( i think no one gets hurt) and its called saffron terrorism

And the Administrators thank the post..

Then Indians are blamed for derailing and trolling

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## Infinite Sapience

fox said:


> Attack on Kashmiri leaders exposed saffron terrorism and world largest hypocrisy.



It seems saffron terrorist are pretty weak as compared to Islamic terrorists.. I mean no Ak-47s , no explosive laden vehicles, no hijacked planes.

If you define this incident as "terrorism", we will have to invent entirely new vocabulary for "so called" terrorist attacks in Pakistan.


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## unicorn

This is called Democracy.


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## foxbat

fox said:


> They were attacked by vishwa hindu pareshad saffron terrorist party not K pandits.



How do you know that some Kashmiri pandits are not a part of this party??

You know that term Islamic terrorism is used much more often in the world. Why bring religion in this and derail the discussion..


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## SEAL

foxbat said:


> A bunch of civilians with opposing ideology create a ruccus in a public meeting( i think no one gets hurt) and its called saffron terrorism
> 
> And the Administrators thank the post..
> 
> Then Indians are blamed for derailing and trolling




This term is invented by interior minister of India chidu not us.
Why he did that because he have the information from Indian secret services that vhp,rss,shiv sena and master mind bjp are involved in terrorist activities and this is called saffron terrorism.


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## Bang Galore

Asim Aquil said:


> And anyone pro-India has to resort to violence? *If you have the guts, let him have his say*.



Would have carried more weight if this was not the day you showed your utter intolerance to others having their say. Not surprising though that you don't practice what you speak as many others have found out to their detriment on the Kashmir issue.



Asim Aquil said:


> Why detain the Lallu panjus, go arrest their RSS leaders.



Yeah, why don't we apply this principles to the ISI? Where did your insistence on absolute proof disappear to? Or does that apply only when the accused are Pakistanis?



fox said:


> Attack on Kashmiri leaders exposed saffron terrorism and world largest hypocrisy.
> 
> 
> 
> YouTube - Mirwaiz attacked in Chandigarh



You obviously saw something different from me. All I saw was the police & many others blocking the way of the few hooligans who as a result broke some pots. *Terrorism?* You come from Pakistan, don't you? What wouldn't people in Pakistan give to see terrorism of the kind where only flower pots are broken against the ground?

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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

unicorn said:


> This is called Democracy.



Yeah this is called as democracy where sepretist leaders were allowed to make confrence in any part of county including capital.....

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## foxbat

fox said:


> This term is invented by interior minister of India chidu not us.
> Why he did that because he have the information from Indian secret services that vhp,rss,shiv sena and master mind bjp are involved in terrorist activities and this is called saffron terrorism.



what is this have to do with this thread? That way you have every single party in Pakistan accused to doing stuff with Taliban or involved in happeneings in Karachi. Would that make every action of these parties representative of Islamic terrorism. And by association the whole of Pakistani political system??

Dude, lets stay with the context without jingoistic namecalling and chest thumping. Unless you are specifically doing it to lure some Indians into retaliating and getting banned..


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## Spring Onion

Ganguly said:


> Better humiliation for him was to boycott the conference with no media presence, with plenty of flowers & get well soon cards . *We are from the land of Gandhi not from land of Lakhvi. *. Please behave accordingly.



 Land of \gandhi where Gandhi was killed by saffron terrorists.

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## Spring Onion

Infinite Sapience said:


> If you have followed this news closely, you would have realised the Kashmiri pandits were not angered by his remarks on human right violations but were provoked by his comments on "Kashmir is not a part of India"...there fore the slogans of "Bharat Mata ki Jai" was being continuously raised outside the hall.



then they are not kashmiris but saffron bandits simple as that.\\


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## Infinite Sapience

Jana said:


> Land of \gandhi where Gandhi was killed by saffron terrorists.



Despite the fact M.K Gandhi was a Hindu.
*This is like saying everyday Pakistanis are being killed by Islamic terrorists.*

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## Ammyy

Jana said:


> then they are not kashmiris but saffron bandits simple as that.\\



*And they need your certificate for their identity*

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## Ganguly

Jana said:


> Land of \gandhi where Gandhi was killed by saffron terrorists.



Look Who's talking. To referesh your memory, please check the list

*January*
January 1  A suicide bombing occurs at a volleyball game in northwestern Pakistan, killing at least 95, and injuring over 100.[1] 
January 13 - A train hit a school bus at an ungated railway crossing in Pakistan's Punjab Province near to the town of Mian Channu, killing 8 children and injuring several others.[2] 
January 30 - A suicide bombing occurs at a military checkpoint within the town of Khar, in the Bajaur Agency, killing at least 16 people and injuring around 25 others. 
*February*
3 February - A suicide bombing occurs within the Lower Dir District area of the country, killing at least 8 people, including 3 American soldiers and injuring around 70 other people. 
5 February - Twin bombings, one of which includes a suicide attack occurred within the Pakistani city of Karachi, killing at least 25 people and injuring more than 50 others. 
10 February - A suicide bombing targeting a police patrol in the Khyber Agency killed at least 19 people, including 13 local policemen. 
17 February - Avalanche in the Kohistan District, killing over 100 people. 
18 February - A bombing at a local mosque in the Tirah Valley of the Khyber Agency, killed at least 30 people and injured more than 70 others. 
*March*
March 12 - Three separate suicide bombings targeting Pakistani security forces occurred from the 8th of March till the 12th of March. It is known that more than 72 people were killed in these three-related suicide attacks and more than 190 others were injured. 
*April*
April 5 - A series of coordinated bombings at the U.S. consulate in Peshawar and at a ruling party rally in the North-West Frontier Province kills 50 people and injured 100 others.[3] 
April 8 - Pakistan adopts the 18th amendment to the Constitution, stripping President Asif Ali Zardari of key powers.[4] 
April 10 - The military kills 100 people in an air raid on a Taliban area in the north-west.[5] 
April 17-April 18 - Three suicide bomb attacks occurred within the town of Kohat within the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Province. At least 58 people were killed in these three suicide attacks and around 86 others were injured. 
April 19 - A suicide bombing struck a marketplace within the centre of Peshawar, killing at least 25 people. 
* May*
28 May - A series of co-ordinated attacks were launched on two Ahmadi mosques in Lahore by the Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan. At least 86 people are killed in these terrorist attacks and more than 120 others are injured. 
*June*
28 June - An accidental truck blast caused by an exploding gas cylinder, kills at least 18 people and injured around 42 others within the southern Pakistani city of Hyderabad.[6] 
*July*
Extensive flooding after monsoon rains. At least 1,600 people were killed. 
1 July - Twin suicide bombings targeted a Sufi shrine at the Data Durbar Complex, in the eastern Pakistani city of Lahore. At least 50 people are killed in these twin suicide attacks and more than 200 are injured. 
9 July - A suicide bomb attack occurs at a market within the Mohmand Agency of north-western Pakistan. At least 104 people are killed in this suicide attack and more than 120 others are injured. 
28 July - Crash of Airblue Flight 202, killing all 152 people aboard. 
*August*
36 August - Riots in Karachi after the assassination of MP Raza Haider.[7] 
13 August - President Asif Ali Zardari a curb on the traditional Independence Day in favour a more sombre response to the floods. Zardari will instead spend the day visiting the regions worst affected by flooding.[8] 
14 August - 12 suspected militants in North Waziristan are killed by a suspected American drone attack.[9] 
14 August - At least 16 people are killed following an outbreak of violence in Balochistan.[10] 
14 August - Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gillani announces that as many as 20 million Pakistanis have been hit by the floods, contradicting earlier United Nations estimates of 14 million.[11] 
15 August - Condemnations and the promise of a government inquiry follow the lynching of two teenaged brothers, Mughees and Muneeb Butt, by a mob in Sialkot. The killings, believed to have been sparked by a mistaken belief that the brothers were robbers, was caught on film by a Dunya TV reporter and aired on all private media channels.[12] 
24 August - Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gillani raises fears of disease epidemic in flood-hit areas of the country, following reports from doctors in the areas that diarrhoea and cholera were spreading.[13] 
* September*
1 September - At least 35 people are killed and more than 250 others injured, following a series of bomb attacks on a Shia Islamic procession in Lahore. The attacks, two of which were said to be from suicide bombers took place at a commemoration of the death of Ali bin Abi Talib.[14] 
3 September - In a similar attack on Shia Muslims at least 50 people are killed in Quetta by a suicide bomber at a Shia rally. Responsibility is claimed by the Taliban who state that the killings were a revenge attack for the killing of a Sunni leader in 2009.[15] 
7 September - American actress Angelina Jolie visits flood-hit areas of the country as the UN launches a renewed appeal for aid.[16] 
10 September - Former leader General Pervez Musharraf announces his intention to return to Pakistan from self-imposed exile in London. He claims that he plans to establish a new political party in order to contest the 2013 elections.[17] 
16 September - Exiled politician Imran Farooq is found murdered near his home in exile in north London having been stabbed several times.[18][19] Violence erupted in his hometown Karachi following his murder. Several shops and vehicles were set on fire however no casualties were reported. MQM called for a 10 day strike to mourn Farooq's death.[20] 
25 September - Four people are killed in Miranshah in a suspected American drone attack.[21] Seven more die in the Datta Khel area of North Waziristan in a similar attack the following day.[22] 
25 September - The three men accused of the 2008 Danish embassy bombing in Islamabad are acquitted by a Pakistani court because of insufficient evidence. The decision is to be challenged by the prosecution in the high courts.[23] 
26 September - Abdul Qayum Jatoi quits as Minister of Defence Production after claiming that the Pakistan Army was involved in political assassinations, including that of Benazir Bhutto.[24] 
27 September - Geo TV reveals that more than one third of cabinet ministers pay no taxes whatsoever and that Prime Minister Gillani had not paid taxes for any of the three years covered by the disclosure.[25] 
*October*
1 October - Pervez Musharraf launches his new political party, the All Pakistan Muslim League, at a club in London. At the launch Musharraf apologises for the "negative actions" he took whilst in power.[26] 
2 October - Nine more people are killed in the North-West in the latest in a series of American drone attacks on the bases of suspected militants.[27] 
20 October - Political and ethnic violence erupts in Karachi resulting in 35 deaths.[28] 
22 October - US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton announces that the American government is to give US$2 billion in military aid.[29] 
*November*
3 November - Two government schools are destroyed by Taliban militants in an attack in the Mohmand area.[30] 
5 November - A bomb explodes in a mosque in Darra Adam Khel in North-West Pakistan, killing at least 55 people and injuring over 100. Later that same day a grenade attack on another mosque in the village of Sulemankhel near Peshawar claimed at least two lives. Both attacks occurred during daily prayer sessions.[31] 
9 November - The headquarters of the Pakistan police's Criminal Investigation Department in Karachi is attacked by militants. After the attack in replused in a gun battle a lorry load of explosives are detonated, destroying a perimiter wall. 200 deaths and over 100 injuries are reported.[32]

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## Areesh

> Mirwaiz Umar Farooq attacked in Chandigarh



Ah just some kids frustrated over spending their childhood with some paedophile. They will grow up once they will forget their past.


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## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> Ah just some kids frustrated over spending their childhood with some paedophile. They will grow up once they will forget their past.



I think you are right ..... Some youth in kashmir (only 2 %) is attacked by this paedophile .............. They will surely grow up once they will forget their past.

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## ajtr

two rights are slugging it out.


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## LaBong

Areesh said:


> Ah just some kids frustrated over spending their childhood with some paedophile. They will grow up once they will forget their past.



Funny, they probably spent their childhood in Kashmir with Mirwaiz and his folks! 

Didn't know they had to go through that dreaded experience as well in Kashmir!

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## Ganguly

Areesh said:


> Ah just some kids frustrated over spending their childhood with some paedophile. They will grow up once they will forget their past.



News to me. Never knew Mirwaiz spent his childhood with some Pakistani militants. No wonder. Militants always attack from back door. God bless NWFP of Pakistan.


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## indushek

Jana said:


> Land of \gandhi where Gandhi was killed by saffron terrorists.



What about the land of Quaid - e - Azam where none of his dreams came true and just the opposite of what he fought for has prevailed and does still now.

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## JonAsad

fox said:


> Attack on Kashmiri leaders exposed saffron terrorism and world largest hypocrisy.
> 
> 
> 
> YouTube - Mirwaiz attacked in Chandigarh



Extremist looney tones


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## Veeru

Asim Aquil said:


> They may belong to an RSS ideology club. Anyway shows more about what all pro-India parties in the Kashmir conflict are all about. Can't silence protests, then resort to violence.



These protesters are not from RSS etc. they are Kashmiri pundits who have suffered due to terrorist and radicals.

*Kashmiri pundits have been murdered, raped, property looted, houses burned and become refugee in their own country.

They have every right on the earth to protest.*

*People should not be Hippocrate when some radicals pelt stones, harm commoners or burn public property many in pakistan are sympathetic to them. 

But they keep their eyes closed on the biggest sufferer the innocent Kashmiri Pundits who belongs to Kashmir.*

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## CaptainJackSparrow

Asim Aquil said:


> It would've been if India would've controlled its mobs... But with this attack Indian democracy has earned a big fat Zero.



So a mob attack on the Chauri Chaura Police Station in February 1922 made Gandhi a violent man?

What a logic is that?


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## Areesh

DRDO said:


> I think you are right ..... Some youth in kashmir (only 2 %) is attacked by this paedophile .............. They will surely grow up once they will forget their past.



After reading your past posts and attitude I am not much skeptical about you too. Looks like such victims are present on defence.pk with user names as defence organizations of their countries.


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## Areesh

Abir said:


> Funny, they probably spent their childhood in Kashmir with Mirwaiz and his folks!
> 
> Didn't know they had to go through that dreaded experience as well in Kashmir!



But weren't they kicked out of IOK. Highly probabe that they might have spent their childhood in some refugee camp backed by *Indian military*.



Ganguly said:


> News to me. Never knew Mirwaiz spent his childhood with some Pakistani militants. No wonder. Militants always attack from back door. God bless NWFP of Pakistan.



Well a victim can tell us more about such issues and we would surely want to know more about your childhood from you.


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## aks18

Veeru said:


> These protesters are not from RSS etc. they are Kashmiri pundits who have suffered due to terrorist and radicals.
> 
> *Kashmiri pundits have been murdered, raped, property looted, houses burned and become refugee in their own country.
> 
> They have every right on the earth to protest.*
> 
> *People should not be Hippocrate when some radicals pelt stones, harm commoners or burn public property many in pakistan are sympathetic to them.
> 
> But they keep their eyes closed on the biggest sufferer the innocent Kashmiri Pundits who belongs to Kashmir.*





from now gujrati muslims should also attack indian leaders after all *gujrati muslims have been murdered, raped, property looted, houses burned and become refugee in their own country.*


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## Areesh

ARCHON said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/81882-mirwaiz-attacked-punjab.html



A very productive thread by the way.


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## Kambojaric

Mirwaiz Umar Farooq is one of the most sensible separatists. He calls for dialouge but alas now with the humiliation with which their leader has been treated Kashmiris will come out in even greater force next time. Of course you indians will argue back what was he doing in changidarh, he has no buisness there etc etc. but ironically this is the same leader who has unlike geelani and others called for pundits to come back., these same people are beating him up. Nice way of achieving your goal.


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## foxbat

Bamxa said:


> Mirwaiz Umar Farooq is one of the most sensible separatists. He calls for dialouge but alas now with the humiliation with which their leader has been treated Kashmiris will come out in even greater force next time. Of course you indians will argue back what was he doing in changidarh, he has no buisness there etc etc. but ironically this is the same leader who has unlike geelani and others called for pundits to come back., these same people are beating him up. Nice way of achieving your goal.



No beating happened.. He was heckled.. There was an interesting line I read once..

" The price of my freedom of expression is my duty to defend yours"

Now if a separatist leader can get rights to stand in Chandigarh and advocate secession, some patriotic Kashmiris also deserve the same right to protest against that.

And we all know us Punjabis are a little too expressive and emotional


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## Kambojaric

Timeasia.com

Asian Heroes







He Goes in the Name of Peace
Young, modern and pragmatic, Islamic leader OMAR FAROOQ is Kashmir's last and greatest hope
By ALEX PERRY

To his enemies, he's a traitorous separatist. To his Kashmiri allies, he's an upstart. To his people, he is simply the bearer of hope. But almost everyone makes the same grim prediction about 29-year-old Omar Farooq: one day, his straight talking is going to get him killed. Consider the constituencies that Farooq, Kashmir's top Muslim leader, has a habit of offending. Indian security forces: "Killers and looters with a license." Pakistani militant groups: "Virtual thieves, using the Kashmir conflict to solicit funds, of which almost nothing is passed to the people." Fundamentalist Muslims: "I don't see a balance between Islam and modernization anywhere." Farooq can utter such truths because he is beholden to no one except his God and his people. "You've got to worry about him," says a Western diplomat in New Delhi. "Every time we meet, I'm just a little relieved he's still there."

Farooq never wanted to be there in the first place. As a 17-year-old with a passion for computers, his father Mohammed's work as the mirwaiz&#8212;high priest of Kashmir and a figurehead for the nascent Muslim rebellion against India&#8212;held no interest. He remembers how on a clear morning in May 1990, he went to see his father in his office in the mirwaiz's palace in Srinagar, only to turn away when he heard the familiar sound of heated religious discussion behind the door. Then, shots rang out. Five ... six ... seven, loud as cannons, spaced and deliberate. Farooq, his mother, sisters and the servants ran to the outhouse. "He was lying down," says Farooq. "There was blood, there were wounds ... The doctors did their best, but ... " The funeral drew 400,000 people. "They were coming to me and saying, 'Are you ready to take over?'" Grief-stricken and suddenly facing an inheritance he barely understood and which appealed even less, Farooq followed his father's body to the mosque. The enraged crowd clashed repeatedly with Indian security forces. Farooq says the Indians shot dead 65 mourners. "But even as they were hit and fell, new ones appeared. Nobody let my father's body drop." Farooq had never seen such devotion. A few days later, ignoring his distraught mother's pleas, he hesitantly accepted his birthright as the 15th mirwaiz.

That was 12 years ago, when Kashmir's Muslim insurgency was just five months old. Today, Farooq is a plain-speaking preacher trying to win a war without firing a gun. From the start, he has used the moral authority of his ancient office to display a thoroughly modern pragmatism in the search for a solution. In 1993, Farooq united 23 separatist and militant groups in the Hurriyat Conference, which he has led into negotiations with India, Pakistan and diplomats all over the world. "Some people say we must join with Pakistan, others that we must have independence," he says. "I'm not going to set any target that another side can dismiss outright. I will go for any solution that restores the dignity of the people of Kashmir." Youth, instead of inexperience and immaturity, has given him energy. Crucially it also gave him a flexibility that contrasts well with the tired intransigence and blood-feud intrigues endemic to Kashmir. Diplomats and militants alike have found themselves able to accept his no-nonsense attitude, backed by his unquestioned credentials as the true voice of Kashmir.

Frank as ever, Farooq admits he wasn't always happy with his ordained position as a man of peace. As he grew into adulthood, Farooq watched the rebellion turn into one of the world's bloodiest. "I'd visit houses where a child had been killed by the Indians or where the father had died in custody and I'd think, 'Why not pick up the gun? Why not fight? I could form the biggest army in Kashmir.'" That Omar Farooq did not&#8212;when he could have&#8212;is why there is still hope for Kashmir.

http://www.time.com/time/asia/features/heroes/farooq.html

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## Infinite Sapience

Bamxa said:


> Mirwaiz Umar Farooq is one of the most sensible separatists. He calls for dialouge but alas now with the humiliation with which their leader has been treated Kashmiris will come out in even greater force next time. Of course you indians will argue back what was he doing in changidarh, he has no buisness there etc etc. but ironically this is the same leader who has unlike geelani and others called for pundits to come back., these same people are beating him up. Nice way of achieving your goal.



You are forgetting the fact, the people who beat him were infact *Kashmiri*..so if he changes his stance based on todays event and vents out on Kashmiri Pandit , it will vindicate India's stand.


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## Nalwa

Lets see how many Pakistani members quote and believe Time the next time an anti-Pakistan article appears. Half of them would be blaming the Western neo-con media for defaming Pakistan and Islam.


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## LaBong

Areesh said:


> But weren't they kicked out of IOK. Highly probabe that they might have spent their childhood in some refugee camp backed by *Indian military*.



They are not kids but young men, so they were living in Kashmir before freedom fighters tried to pull off a Afghanistan there. 



> Well a victim can tell us more about such issues and we would surely want to know more about your childhood from you.



Knowing the socio-cultural practises in some parts of Pakistan, if I were a Pakistani, I wouldn't have taken a dig at Indians on paedophilia!

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## aks18

Infinite Sapience said:


> You are forgetting the fact, the people who beat him were infact *Kashmiri*..so if he changes his stance based on todays event and vents out on Kashmiri Pandit , it will vindicate India's stand.



is it difficult to sit ur agents in such conferences in ur own country ??? who knows the reality that those guys were kashmiris or indian agents ??


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## riju78



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## riju78



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## the admin

the best reply by kashmiri pandit groups 


pepoles of kashmir want to show to feeling for him and they showed


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## luckyyy

Jammu, November 25, 2010

Jammu and Kashmir chief minister Omar Abdullah has described the attack on Hurriyat Conference chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq in Chandigarh on Thursday as a "reaction to the kind of politics and policy" of the separatist leaders told reporters on the sidelines of a function in Jammu:* "This was bound to happen".*

He said, "It appeared to be a reaction to their politics and policy," indicating that* separatist leaders were bound to invite public wrath for speaking against the country *and its rule in Jammu and Kashmir.

The chief minister, however, said, *"I don't condone the incident."*

"We are very proud of our democracy, where the people have liberty to express themselves. Essentially, it's a battle of ideas and ideology," he said.

This is the third incident involving disruption of programmes of separatists. 

First, a seminar in Delhi where hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani asked for "freedom of Kashmiris from the Indian rule in Kashmir" in October, was disrupted.

This was followed by the disturbances at a press conference of another separatist leader, Syed Shabir Shah, in Jammu early in November.

The Mirwaiz was roughed up at a seminar in Chandigarh, where he characterised Kashmir as a separate nation.

The Mirwaiz is also the chief cleric of Kashmir.

Attack on Mirwaiz reaction to separatists' politics: Omar - Hindustan Times


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## the admin

aks18 said:


> is it difficult to sit ur agents in such conferences in ur own country ??? who knows the reality that those guys were kashmiris or indian agents ??





well if some one is against you that means he is agents 

like you can in pakistan so many agents are working against pakistan army and govt 

talk with logic man 

they were kashmiri and they gave best reply to pakistani agent


----------



## Awesome

fox said:


> Attack on Kashmiri leaders exposed saffron terrorism and world largest hypocrisy.
> 
> 
> 
> YouTube - Mirwaiz attacked in Chandigarh


This would become a UNSC permanent member?


----------



## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> This would become a UNSC permanent member?





fox said:


> *Attack on Kashmiri leaders exposed saffron terrorism and world largest hypocrisy*.
> 
> 
> 
> YouTube - Mirwaiz attacked in Chandigarh





WTF 
*
Agar koi tumhare mulk me tumhare mulk ke hi khilakh kuch bolega to tum log kya use phool and gifts doge ????*

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## CaptainJackSparrow

Asim Aquil said:


> This would become a UNSC permanent member?



Yes we will.

If UK can, after what they did in Jalianwalah Bagh

If US can, after what they did in Hiroshima and Nagasaki

If China can, with what they did in Tiananmen Square.

If Russia can, with whatever Lenin did. 

If France can, with whatever they did in their colonies. 

India has done nothing as compared to these major world powers. 

We are angels by their standards. 

And angels definitely deserve a permamnent UNSC seat and we will get it with next ten years.

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## LaBong

People are acting as if this Mirwaiz guy is tortured to death or something. Enough with the hypocrisy. Far worse treatment is given to people talking about self-determination in your country and those preparators of crimes gets hero's treatment afterwards.


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## Awesome

riju78 said:


> YouTube - Mirwaiz Umar Farooq attacked for making anti-India speech in Chandigrah


Bravery of the Kashmiri, one man faced up to an Indian onslaught...

---------- Post added at 07:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 PM ----------




CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Yes we will.
> 
> If UK can, after what they did in Jalianwalah Bagh
> 
> If US can, after what they did in Hiroshima and Nagasaki
> 
> If China can, with what they did in Tiananmen Square.
> 
> If Russia can, with whatever Lenin did.
> 
> If France can, with whatever they did in their colonies.
> 
> India has done nothing as compared to these major world powers.
> 
> We are angels by their standards.
> 
> And angels definitely deserve a permamnent UNSC seat and we will get it with next ten years.


You mean your application is your ability to genocide, and abuse human rights violations?


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## Bang Galore

Asim Aquil said:


> This would become a UNSC permanent member?



Ask you friends, the Chinese.The Mirwaiz would have gotten 20 years in a labour camp for his efforts and if that didn't teach him anything, another 20 years would have followed.

Here he gets to run around the country bad mouthing it & he is protected by law.

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## LaBong

Asim Aquil said:


> Bravery of the Kashmiri, one man faced up to an Indian onslaught...



Thank god it wasn't genocide!

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## CaptainJackSparrow

Asim Aquil said:


> Bravery of the Kashmiri, one man faced up to an Indian onslaught...
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 PM ----------
> 
> 
> You mean your application is your ability to genocide, and abuse human rights violations?



Only if you stick to your stand in case of China as well.


----------



## Awesome

Abir said:


> People are acting as if this Mirwaiz guy is tortured to death or something. Enough with the hypocrisy. Far worse treatment is given to people talking about self-determination in your country and those preparators of crimes gets hero's treatment afterwards.


Please tell me what level of abuse and lack of freedom should the Kashmiri consider as default? All hypocrisy is by India and the real gutless face of the Indian position on Kashmir has been exposed. It is now on tape that India can only silence Kashmiris through force.


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## Veeru

Asim Aquil said:


> Bravery of the Kashmiri, one man faced up to an Indian onslaught...
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 PM ----------
> 
> 
> You mean your application is your ability to genocide, and abuse human rights violations?



These all are *Kashmiri Pundits* don't be ignorant and you have to salute our democracy we allow that separatist to hold public meetings and our great security forces providing them security cover.


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## Awesome

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Only if you stick to your stand in case of China as well.


Pakistanis support abolishing the UNSC as all free humans should.


----------



## LaBong

Asim Aquil said:


> Please tell me what level of abuse and lack of freedom should the Kashmiri consider as default? All hypocrisy is by India and the real gutless face of the Indian position on Kashmir has been exposed. It is now on tape that India can only silence Kashmiris through force.



Please explain me how Govt of India have any relation with the incident, other than sending security to rescue Mirwaiz from getting beaten by Kashmiris themselves?


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Asim Aquil said:


> Pakistanis support abolishing the UNSC as all free humans should.



Now if I start on UNSC, it will really go out if topic. Let's save that part for some other thread (unless you are fine with it).

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## Veeru

Asim Aquil said:


> Pakistanis support abolishing the UNSC as all free humans should.



Admin "Asim Aquil" is requested to stick to the topic plz.


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## riju78




----------



## Ammyy

*3 LeT militants killed, jawan injured in Poonch encounter* 

Three top Lashker-e-Taiba (LeT) militants were killed and an Army jawan was injured in an encounter with security forces in Poonch district of Jammu and Kashmir on Thursday.

Acting on a tip-off about the presence of a group of militants, troops of 20 and 16 Rastriya Rifles (RR) and Police launched a search and cordon operation in Mordha belt of Surakote tehsil in the district early on Thursday, Poonch SSP Manmohan Singh told PTI.

On seeing the security personnel, militants opened discriminate firing from maize fields atop a hill in which one army jawan Gurpreet Singh of 16 RR was injured. He was later hospitalised.

Police and troops fired back and an encounter ensued in which three top militants of LeT were killed, he said, adding that all of them are Pakistani militants.

Two of them have been identified as Abu Abdul and Abu Usman, he said adding large quantities of arms and ammunition have been recovered from the scene of the encounter.

The Hindu : News / National : 3 LeT militants killed, jawan injured in Poonch encounter

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## Ammyy

Three terrorists killed in daylong Kashmir gun batle

3 militants killed in Poonch gun-battle


*I think militant want to do some thing big on 26/11 *

But our security forces are their to save us


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## Ammyy

[/COLOR]


DRDO said:


> *
> Acting on a tip-off about the presence of a group of militants, troops of 20 and 16 Rastriya Rifles (RR) and Police launched a search and cordon operation in Mordha belt of Surakote tehsil in the district early on Thursday, Poonch SSP Manmohan Singh told PTI.
> *


*

Our own MMS present at every place *


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## Awesome

Veeru said:


> These all are *Kashmiri Pundits* don't be ignorant and you have to salute our democracy we allow that separatist to hold public meetings and our great security forces providing them security cover.


Its surprising how Indians are only seeing Kashmiri Pandits mentioned and are trying their very best to hide the fact that Vishwa Hindu Prasad has been clearly mentioned by media outlets!

I think this bimaari is not just with our Mullahs but religious extremists of the entire world. For this reason I guess Bulley Shah commented

Ilmon paye qaziye Hor (Misguided knowledge has produced those clerics)
Akhan walay annay kor (Who are blinded by their power of sight)
Pharday sadh, tay chaddan chor (Who arrest the innocent and free the criminal)

Like Umar Abdullah, the Indian appointed illegal CM of Kashmir has stated, Mirwaiz got beaten because of his own fault. People are asking how is India at fault here? Akkhan walay Annay.


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## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> Its surprising how Indians are only seeing Kashmiri Pandits mentioned and are trying their very best to hide the fact that Vishwa Hindu Prasad has been clearly mentioned by media outlets!



Well just look at all news source you find out weather they are kashmiri pandit or VHP .................... but not Pakistani source... lol 

And BTW if any one say against Pakistan in Pakistan so what will you do with that person ???? 

I guess you gift him flowers ??? right ??


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## Awesome

DRDO said:


> Well just look at all news source you find out weather they are kashmiri pandit or VHP .................... but not Pakistani source... lol
> 
> And BTW if any one say against Pakistan in Pakistan so what will you do with that person ????
> 
> I guess you gift him flowers ??? right ??


People routinely criticize the Pakistan Army for excesses for its war on the western front. That is no excuse to beat up someone for talking about human rights violations

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## Infinite Sapience

Asim Aquil said:


> Its surprising how Indians are only seeing Kashmiri Pandits mentioned and are trying their very best to hide the fact that Vishwa Hindu Prasad has been clearly mentioned by media outlets!
> 
> I think this bimaari is not just with our Mullahs but religious extremists of the entire world. For this reason I guess Bulley Shah commented
> 
> Ilmon paye qaziye Hor (Misguided knowledge has produced those clerics)
> Akhan walay annay kor (Who are blinded by their power of sight)
> Pharday sadh, tay chaddan chor (Who arrest the innocent and free the criminal)
> 
> Like Umar Abdullah, the Indian appointed illegal CM of Kashmir has stated, Mirwaiz got beaten because of his own fault. People are asking how is India at fault here? Akkhan walay Annay.



Perhaps you can point out the media outlet which was providing on the spot coverage of the news and has mentioned VHP being involved in it ? 
VHP is being only mentioned by some Kashmiri papers perhaps taking cue from " VHP involvement in Shabir shah incedent".

No reputable source has mentioned VHP involvement.


----------



## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> People routinely criticize the Pakistan Army for excesses for its war on the western front. *That is no excuse to beat up someone for talking about human rights violations*



I think you have leave two faced, two standard policy 

If we start to talk this matter in deep so you put than in troll and flaming category 

*From my point of view farooq got what he deserve so its better for him to stick to Srinagar with those 2&#37; paid protesters and feel happy.*


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## Dance

Well what do you expect from the worlds biggest hypocrisy?


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## foxbat

Asim Aquil said:


> Its surprising how Indians are only seeing Kashmiri Pandits mentioned and are trying their very best to hide the fact that Vishwa Hindu Prasad has been clearly mentioned by media outlets!
> 
> 
> Like Umar Abdullah, the Indian appointed illegal CM of Kashmir has stated, Mirwaiz got beaten because of his own fault. People are asking how is India at fault here? Akkhan walay Annay.



You are assuming that there are no Kashmiri Pandits in VHP..

Also by your definition, armed insurgents attaking Indian armed forces are respectable lot and can not be called terrorists. But 1 unarmed civilian who gets upset at a Kashmiri separatist and unsuccessfully tries to beat him up represents terrorism.. Also remember that he was unsuccessfule because the Bad and evil Indian security forces prevented him from beating some one up who was openly committing a crime.

Before you jump into the disputed state arguement, do remember that the Kashmiri leader was making this statement in Punjab where IPC is applicable and promoting secession is an illegal act

Akkhan walay Annay... Anyone???


----------



## Areesh

Abir said:


> They are not kids but young men, so they were living in Kashmir before freedom fighters tried to pull off a Afghanistan there.



Well they aren't that old either. In fact it's been nearly two decades when they were thrown out of IOK. Who knows their experience of childhood spent at refugee camps in Indian main land still haunts them.



> Knowing the socio-cultural practises in some parts of Pakistan, if I were a Pakistani, I wouldn't have taken a dig at Indians on paedophilia!



Knowing the socio-cultural practices that emerge out of of both rural and urban India in the daily news I can take the gall to dig at you guys.


----------



## Areesh

riju78 said:


> YouTube - Kashmiri Pandit beaten in Chandigarh by Police



Wah sardar jee wah. Looks like you and Kashmiris both know how to treat such guys. Dil khush kar dia.


----------



## Infinite Sapience

Areesh said:


> Ah just some kids frustrated over spending their childhood with some paedophile. They will grow up once they will forget their past.





Areesh said:


> Well they aren't that old either. In fact it's been nearly two decades when they were thrown out of IOK. Who knows their experience of childhood spent at refugee camps in Indian main land still haunts them.
> 
> 
> 
> Knowing the socio-cultural practices that emerge out of of both rural and urban India in the daily news I can take the gall to dig at you guys.





It seems you can get away with your bull$hit even though Admin is regularly contributing to the topic(including handing out bans and suspensions).

First time around, I did not reply because I thought, your post will invariably be deleted, but now it seems you will continue to post nonsense(and no action will be taken) until an unless confronted with a equally nonsense reply and this thread turn into a troll fest .

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## Ammyy

somebozo said:


> the whole of kashmir and jammu is highly diverse with dozen of different languages spoken. The case made to discredit Pakistan in above article fails miserably! end of the day the AJK retains it sense of identity and culture while the Indian side is being forced to "indianize"



I think this can help you some more

*Freedom in the World 2008 - Kashmir [Pakistan]*

Political Rights and Civil Liberties

The political rights of the residents of Pakistani-administered Kashmir remain severely limited. Neither the Northern Areas nor Azad Kashmir has representation in Pakistan's national Parliament. The Northern Areas are directly administered by the Pakistani government under the Legal Framework Order of 1994; the region is not included in the Pakistani constitution and has no constitution of its own, meaning there is no fundamental guarantee of civil rights, democratic representation, or the separation of powers. Executive authority is vested in the minister for Kashmir affairs, a civil servant appointed by Islamabad. A 36-seat Northern Areas Legislative Council (NALC)  of which 24 seats are filled through direct elections and six each are reserved for women and technocrats from each district  serves in an advisory capacity and has no authority to change laws or control revenue. Elections to the NALC were held in 2004, with independent candidates and representatives of national political parties winning seats. In October 2007, Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf announced a package of reforms that would change the NALC into the Northern Areas Legislative Assembly, devolving fiscal and legislative powers to locally elected politicians. The package would also allow for the election of a chief executive accountable to the assembly, but it would maintain federal control over the judiciary and the top executive post of "chairman." The region would continue to be administered under the Legal Framework Order rather than a constitutional framework like in Azad Kashmir, thus still falling short of compliance with a 1999 Supreme Court ruling on the issue. At year's end, Pakistan's broader political crisis cast doubt on the future of the proposed reforms.

Azad Kashmir has an interim constitution, an elected unicameral assembly, a prime minister, and a president who is elected by the legislative assembly. Both the president and the assembly serve five-year terms. Of the 49 assembly seats, 41 are filled through direct elections and eight are reserved seats (five for women and one each for representatives of overseas Kashmiris, technocrats, and religious leaders). However, Pakistan exercises considerable control over the structures of government and electoral politics. Islamabad's approval is required to pass legislation, and the minister for Kashmir affairs handles the daily administration of the state and controls the budget. The Pakistani military retains a guiding role on issues of politics and governance.

As detailed by Human Rights Watch (HRW) in a 2006 report on the region, individuals and political parties who do not support Kashmir's accession to Pakistan are barred from participating in the political process, standing for election, taking a job with any government institution, or accessing educational institutions. At least 60 proindependence candidates who belonged to the JKLF, the APNA, and smaller political parties were barred from participating in the July 2006 Azad Kashmir legislative assembly elections. Overall, HRW noted that the election process was flawed and "greeted with widespread charges of poll rigging by opposition political parties and independent analysts." However, unlike the 2001 elections, the polls featured few instances of physical violence and harassment  aside from threats  against candidates or their supporters, possibly because of the greater international presence in the wake of the earthquake. In general, antiaccession parties and individuals are subject to surveillance, harassment, and sometimes imprisonment by Pakistani intelligence and security services.

In 2007, the political crisis in Pakistan reverberated in Kashmir. Chaudhry Majeed, the PPP president for Azad Kashmir, and other party activists were briefly detained in November following Musharraf's declaration of a state of emergency, with some placed under house arrest for 30 days. In December, demonstrators clashed with police, burned tires, and blocked roads in antigovernment protests after the assassination of PPP leader and former prime minister Benazir Bhutto, but there were no reported injuries.

Azad Kashmir receives a large amount of financial aid from the Pakistani government, especially following the 2005 earthquake, but successive administrations have been tainted by corruption and incompetence. A lack of official accountability has been identified as a key factor in the poor socioeconomic development of both Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas. Pakistani-controlled Kashmir was not rated separately in Transparency International's 2007 Corruption Perceptions Index.

The Pakistani government uses the constitution and other laws to curb freedom of speech on a variety of subjects, including the status of Kashmir and incidents of sectarian violence. In recent years, authorities have banned several local newspapers from publishing and have detained or otherwise harassed Kashmiri journalists. In March 2007, the government suspended its advertisements in publications by the Dawn English-language media group after it reported on a possible resurgence of official support for militants in Kashmir. In April 2007, Dawn reported that the editor and publisher of the banned monthly Kargil International magazine were indicted on sedition and defamation charges for publishing a proindependence article in 2004. In addition to pressure and threats from the authorities, journalists have been known to face harassment and attacks from nonstate actors, though no such incidents were reported in 2007. During the state of emergency imposed on the rest of Pakistan in November 2007, cable operators in Kashmir were instructed to suspend broadcasts of most national and international news channels.


Just read full story at 
UNHCR | Refworld | Freedom in the World 2008 - Kashmir [Pakistan]


----------



## Areesh

Infinite Sapience said:


> It seems you can get away with your bull$hit even though Admin is regularly contributing to the topic(including handing out bans and suspensions).
> 
> First time around, I did not reply because I thought, your post will invariably be deleted, but now it seems you will continue to post nonsense(and no action will be taken) until an unless confronted with a equally nonsense reply and this thread turn into a troll fest .



You reserve the right to leave the forum in protest.


----------



## Areesh

India state of Jammu and Kashmir. Neither Indian state nor India's integral part.

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## Dance

Areesh said:


> You reserve the right to leave the forum in protest.



They wont, how else will they get to troll against Pakistan?


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## rohailmalhi

this is indian so called democrazy , attack the person who talk against ur propoganda.


----------



## Ammyy

rohailmalhi said:


> this is indian so called democrazy , attack the person who talk against ur propoganda.



Yes we have every right to attack a person who is talking against us in-front of us.. 

He have freedom of for his right and this freedom of speech cant we used against nation 

I think our government in coward thats why people like him and roi is traveling freely in India ..

We really need strong governance like Nitish, Modi, Seela Dixit or Yedurappa not like Manmohan Singh who need permission of sonia for every thing


----------



## Infinite Sapience

Areesh said:


> You reserve the right to leave the forum in protest.





Dance said:


> Well what do you expect from the worlds biggest hypocrisy?






Dance said:


> They wont, how else will they get to troll against Pakistan?






^^ You guys neither have any knowledge based or intellectual additions to the topic at hand, rather behaving like pampered kid, *"who thinks his father owns the company and therefore is their's by birth right." *


----------



## Dance

Infinite Sapience said:


> ^^ You guys neither have any knowledge based or intellectual addition to the topic at hand, rather behaving like pampered kid, *"who thinks his father owns the company and therefore is their's by birth right." *



Oh please, 99% of your countrymen join this forum to troll and annoy, so don't cry about how poor indians are being abused on here. This forum is pretty tolerant compared to others, especially your indian forums.


----------



## LaBong

Areesh said:


> Well they aren't that old either. In fact it's been nearly two decades when they were thrown out of IOK. Who knows their experience of childhood spent at refugee camps in Indian main land still haunts them.



Don't confuse them with people from your place. They don't live in camps. We don't put our people in camps even in worst natural disasters! But nice of you talking about them thrown out of their birthplace, we are returning the favour to those who thrown them out as well, and right now my heart is not bleeding for them, because of you. 


> Knowing the socio-cultural practices that emerge out of of both rural and urban India in the daily news I can take the gall to dig at you guys.



Which ones? The one where the bury living people, or the one where they keep under-aged escorts?


----------



## LaBong

Dance said:


> Oh please, 99% of your countrymen join this forum to troll and annoy, so don't cry about how poor indians are being abused on here. This forum is pretty tolerant compared to others, especially your indian forums.



So why don't you complain to management rather than throwing off topic rants here?


----------



## Dance

Abir said:


> So why don't you complain to management rather than throwing off topic rants here?



Tell that Infinite Sapience who started complaining about how the admins are unfair


----------



## Infinite Sapience

Dance said:


> Oh please, 99&#37; of your countrymen join this forum to troll and annoy, so don't cry about how poor indians are being abused on here. This forum is pretty tolerant compared to others, especially your indian forums.



Please talk to me about my posts(as i am quoting yours). I am not management of this forum, such that I am responsible/answerable for each and every members(be that Indian) posts.

*As I have said before, you have nothing knowledgeable or intellectual to share on this topic, and yet you reconfirm my faith by yet another diversion.
*


----------



## Contrarian

Scrap Article 370 and see Kashmir 'issue' resolve itself within 5 years! 
Mirwaiz and all will shut themselves up!

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## Areesh

Abir said:


> Don't confuse them with people from your place. They don't live in camps. We don't put our people in camps even in worst natural disasters! But nice of you talking about them thrown out of their birthplace, we are returning the favour to those who thrown them out as well, and right now my heart is not bleeding for them, because of you.



Good thing dear, By the way our people never wanted any kind of heart bleeding from you anytime. So don't bleed it who knows when you would be needed to bleed.



> Which ones? The one where the bury living people, or the one where they keep under-aged escorts?



No the ones which sacrifice kids in front of Kali mata.


----------



## Areesh

Infinite Sapience said:


> ^^ You guys neither have any knowledge based or intellectual additions to the topic at hand, rather behaving like pampered kid, *"who thinks his father owns the company and therefore is their's by birth right." *



We have also witness many "pearls of wisdom" by many Bharatis on this forum. Anyways you can still quit this forum anytime in protest to any unfair.


----------



## LaBong

Areesh said:


> Good thing dear, By the way our people never wanted any kind of heart bleeding from you anytime. So don't bleed it who knows when you would be needed to bleed.


Well all I can say, right now the thousand cuts are not showing up in the country called India. 




> No the ones which sacrifice kids in front of Kali mata.



lol, is that Pakistanis been taught in schools? no wonder the hate runs deep. 

Anyway religious murder is more prevalent and astronomically high in Pakistan compared to India.

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## Infinite Sapience

malaymishra123 said:


> Scrap Article 370 and see Kashmir 'issue' resolve itself within 5 years!
> Mirwaiz and all will shut themselves up!



As I see Article 370 can be only abolished in two extreme conditions.

1. In state of emergency and
2. state of normalcy.

Scraping of Article, as of now, will do more harm then good(as MMS is already pointing towards more autonomy) and will find little political support in J&K. 

This step might alienate pro- India political parties too (as centre will be assuming control of some of the powers they currently enjoy.)


----------



## Infinite Sapience

Areesh said:


> We have also witness many "pearls of wisdom" by many Bharatis on this forum. Anyways you can still quit this forum anytime in protest to any unfair.



*I shall quit, when I deem it necessary or when management asks me too and I shall ask your advice, when I need it! *


----------



## Areesh

Abir said:


> Well all I can say, right now the thousand cuts are not showing up in the country called India.



No but it had showed a lot in the country named as India. An who knows the future.



> lol, is that Pakistanis been taught in schools?



No internet.



> Anyway religious murder is more prevalent and astronomically high in Pakistan compared to India.



Is that the best you can come up with?

---------- Post added at 12:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 AM ----------




Infinite Sapience said:


> *I shall quit, when I deem it necessary or when management asks me too and I shall ask you advice, when I need it! *



Perfect.


----------



## LaBong

Areesh said:


> No internet.



Not surprising considering the likes of Zaid Hamid enjoys so much fame in Pakistan! 


> Is that the best you can come up with?




What you want me to post statistics of people killed in suicide bombs, for indulging in alleged blasphemy etc etc? Internet is your friend, google it up!


----------



## foxbat

*Saw this interesting piece on the above event*


Dr Shabir Choudhry's blog: The story behind deletion


The story behind deletion
=================

Kashmir has lost its regularity on the UN Security Council agenda and remains alive under an annual reminder rule


The recent uproar in a section of press on both sides of LoC that Kashmir has been deleted from the UN agenda and subsequent planted clarifications in the press prove beyond doubt that Kashmiri leaders do not have a reliable understanding of Kashmir case and at the same time continue to act in a hypocritical manner on the subject.

If we dont want to pursue the UN mechanism on Kashmir and seem to avoid a robust reference to it, it should not bother us if the UN deletes or keeps Kashmir on its agenda. UN is not a human person. Its collective wisdom rests in the collective wisdom of all member nations. Decisions are taken or skipped on the basis of interest or non-interest of member nations. Interests are not a natural reflex but need to be cultivated through a broad spread of diplomacy and active work of various NGOs.


*It is true that something has happened to Kashmir case on November 11, 2010 and much more has happened on September 15, 1996*. On November 11, 2010 Permanent Representative of the UK Mission to the UN in *his capacity as President of the Security Council *presented the annual report of the Council to the General Assembly as contained in document A/65/2. The report covers the period from August 2009 to July 2010. It makes a reference to long-running situations that remain unresolved. *It is true that the list of unresolved situations makes no reference to Kashmir.*


The non-inclusion of Kashmir in the annual report should have caused a serious concern to Kashmiri leaders, in particular, *to all those who turn up at every social occasion organised by High Commission of Pakistan in Delhi*. The report covers the period from August 2009 to July 2010. It means that all that has happened in Kashmir during this period has not been adequately presented outside the city of Srinagar. There is an All Party Parliamentary Group on Kashmir (APPG) constituted in the British House of Commons. *The decision of Sir Mark Lyall Grant, Permanent Representative of the UK Mission to the UN to skip reference to Kashmir in his report is a living example that APPG in the British Parliament or any other institution charged and resourced by Pakistan does not have much acceptability when it comes to a full scale test. Kashmir is used for self-serving purpose by these institutions.*

The tent put up in Geneva and the so called hearing arranged in the European Parliament in the name of Kashmir all have meant to nothing when it came to the preparation of the annual report of the UN Security Council by Britain, during its Presidency of the Security Council. *The non-inclusion of Kashmir as an unresolved issue in the UN Security Council could not be blamed on Britain alone because the introduction to the report was prepared by the delegation of Nigeria, which held the Councils presidency in July. Nigeria is represented in OIC as well.*


The responsibility of the non-inclusion of Kashmir as an unresolved issue falls on the shoulders of Pakistan as a party to the dispute and as a member nation of the UN. It means that Pakistan has failed to take advantage of the many open meetings of Security Council and has failed to take advantage of the live broadcast of its (Security Council) meetings on the internet. All Member States have a regular opportunity to take full advantage of the regular briefings by the Security Council during the course of the year, which provide details of the Councils discussions on issues of the day. Pakistan, in the case of Kashmir, seems to have failed to sensitise the interest of the UN Security Council, as a long outstanding issue and in particular in respect of the civil unrest from August 2009 to July 2010. *It appears that Kashmiri leaders have lost all moral and ethical anchor required to defend the Rights Movement.*

It was not only the non-inclusion of Kashmir as an unresolved issue in the report but *Kashmir has lost on the question of thematic focus that the Council maintained in much of its work*. These themes are now well established on the Councils agenda: conflict prevention and peacekeeping; protection of civilians; children and armed conflict; women, peace and security; and relations with regional organisations.


Kashmiri women could have benefited from the 10th anniversary of Resolution 1325 in October  on women, peace and security  which was a landmark event. The Council adopted a Presidential Statement that supported taking forward a set of indicators as a framework to track implementation of Resolution 1325 in situations of armed conflict, post-conflict and other relevant situations.

Ambassador Amjad Hussain B. Sial Acting Permanent Representative of Pakistan to the UN made a last minute effort and pointed out that the annual report did not make any reference to Jammu and Kashmir dispute in the context of unresolved long-running situations. We understand this was an inadvertent omission, as Jammu and Kashmir is one of the oldest disputes on agenda of the Security Council. Ambassador Sial does deserve a credit for his quick comment.


*It does not make the annual report different in any manner to what it has been presented to the UN General Assembly. Kashmir could not find a mention alongside with other long-running situations, which included Middle East, Cyprus, Western Sahara and other issues where the Council has become engaged in recent years, including Nepal and Guinea Bissau.*


It is unfortunate that we have continued to lie to our people even when much worse things have happened to Kashmir issue at the UN. *In August 1996 UN Security Council under rule 11 of the provisional rules of procedure decided that as of September 15, 1996 matters which have not been considered by the Council in the preceding five years will be automatically deleted from the list of matters of which the Council is seized. As a result the matters which were included in the summary statement of the Secretary General for deletion attracted the IndiaPakistan question (Kashmir) as well*. *It was found that Kashmir was last discussed on November 5, 1965 and had not been discussed for 30 years and 11 months. It was deleted and lost its regularity on the UN SC agenda which it had continued to occupy for 48 years from January 1948 to August 1996.*

Once again a procedural stipulation came to the rescue of Kashmir. The Security Council, however, decided that A matter will however, be provisionally retained in the list of matters of which the Security Council is seized for a period of one year if a Member of the United Nations notifies its objection to its deletion before September 15, 1996. If at the end of one year the matter has still not been considered by the Council, it will be automatically deleted.


*Our leaders should have the courage to tell the people that Kashmir has lost its regularity on the UN SC agenda and remains alive under an annual reminder rule*. *It was deleted in September 1996 from the UN SC agenda and now has lost its place in the annual report of the UN Security Council.* It is time that every Kashmiri decides to exercise his and her right to intervene in the matters that concern him or her or their children.


*Author is London based Secretary General of JKCHR  NGO in Special Consultative Status with the United Nations and can be mailed at dr-nazirgilani@jkchr.com*


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## vandemataram

Jana said:


> Land of \gandhi where Gandhi was killed by saffron terrorists.



Jana, please do not joke around.

The members are having a serious discussion.


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## vandemataram

aks18 said:


> from now gujrati muslims should also attack indian leaders after all *gujrati muslims have been murdered, raped, property looted, houses burned and become refugee in their own country.*



It was a riot, and a communal one at that, not "Sugar"/"Electricity"/Wheat Flour" riots.

In communal riots people get killed, the culprit is the "Hatred" not the perpetrators, because "Mobs" are faceless and irreligious.

You and your brethren should do a great service to each other if you also know that 300 Hindus were also killed.

Now is that "Islamic Terrorism"? I hope not and I wish not.

So you see it is a double-edged sword.

Indeed.

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## vandemataram

Bang Galore said:


> Ask you friends, the Chinese.The Mirwaiz would have gotten 20 years in a labour camp for his efforts and if that didn't teach him anything, another 20 years would have followed.
> 
> Here he gets to run around the country bad mouthing it & he is protected by law.



That was atight one but very simple one as well.


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## Areesh

Abir said:


> Not surprising considering the likes of Zaid Hamid enjoys so much fame in Pakistan!



Huh... Zaid hamid has very much occupied you guys. 

Anyways



> What you want me to post statistics of people killed in suicide bombs, for indulging in alleged blasphemy etc etc? Internet is your friend, google it up!



No but you can search on any search engine with the keywords like maoists, secessionists movements in India, farmer suicides, female infanticides etc etc. I know internet is your friend too and you can do it too.


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## vandemataram

malaymishra123 said:


> Scrap Article 370 and see Kashmir 'issue' resolve itself within 5 years!
> Mirwaiz and all will shut themselves up!



Yes , please. India is a poor country.

We cant afford to see our tax payers money going in billions every year to maintain these bastards.

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## S_O_C_O_M

*Pakistan asks India to realize ground situation in Kashmir​*





"There were UN resolutions on the Jammu and Kashmir issue and India itself committed to hold plebiscite there."  File Photo

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan said on Thursday that it was time for India to realize that it could not continue suppressing the will of people of Jammu and Kashmir.

Foreign Office Spokesman Abdul Basit told a weekly briefing that whatsoever powerful India might be but that did not give it right to suppress the legitimate and peaceful struggle for right of self-determination.

The spokesman said that there were UN resolutions on the Jammu and Kashmir issue and India itself committed to hold plebiscite there.

Replying to a question, the spokesman reiterated Pakistans stand that all issues between the two countries, including Jammu and Kashmir, should be resolved through dialogue.

He said, India knows well that without resolving the Kashmir dispute there can neither be mutual trust between the two countries nor can there be viable peace in the region.

The spokesman strongly condemned rowdyism against Hurriyat leadership that only portrays Indias nervousness at the on-going demonstrations and strikes in the occupied Kashmir.

He also rejected the Indian Foreign Secretarys remarks that Pakistan has no right to give sermons on morality to India vis-a-vis New Delhis desire to seek permanent seat at the UN Security Council.

The spokesman said that a foreign policy that is devoid of moral and legal norms and driven solely by real-politik was a recipe for promoting anarchical tendencies in international relations.

He said in the pursuit of its foreign policy, Pakistan had always upheld the principles of international law.

Abdul Basit said, Indias aversion to moral and legal norms is understandable given the fact that it continues to violate the principles as enshrined in the UN charter and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as well as several UN resolutions.

While commenting on a media report that a United States (US) court has summoned Pakistani intelligence officials in connection with a case pertaining to Mumbai attacks, the spokesman said he had no exact or full details about it.

However, he pointed out that trial against seven accused in the Mumbai attack was underway in Pakistan.

Pakistan is committed to bring the perpetrators of Mumbai terror attacks to justice, so dragging intelligence agencies into this in any manner is preposterous, he added.

The spokesman once against said that Pakistan was against drone attacks and had been impressing upon Obama administration to revisit the policy as it was not helping counter-terrorism efforts.

He said there was no question that Pakistan would allow drone attacks in Balochistan or any other part of the country.

He told a questioner that Pakistan had always challenged the ****** terminology so it was not necessary for it to be present at forums like NATO summit in Lisbon.

The international community recognizes importance of Pakistan and the key role it is playing against terrorism and militancy, he added.

Replying to another question he said Pakistan had always sincerely tried to help the process of bringing about peace and stability in Afghanistan. It would, therefore, welcome the withdrawal of coalition from Afghanistan as and when it happens, he said.

The spokesman hoped that the coalition forces would be able to have developed Afghan National Army and other security forces in Afghanistan by 2014 enabling them to take full charge to prevent anarchy.

He said, Pakistan doesnt expect the coalition forces to stay in Afghanistan forever.

Pakistan asks India to realize ground situation in Kashmir | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia

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## Kinetic

> Pakistan asks India to realize ground situation in Kashmir


Does Pakistan realize the ground situation? How Kashmir became violent after militancy started?!!! Who gained what? *No one gained anything!!! *



> He said, &#8220;India knows well that without resolving the Kashmir dispute there can neither be mutual trust between the two countries nor *can there be viable peace in the region*.&#8221;


I don't think there is any solution to Kashmir that will be accepted by both India and Pakistan. Kashmir issue is a problem between India and Pakistan but it will not hurt our development. 



> He also rejected the Indian Foreign Secretary&#8217;s remarks that Pakistan has no right to give sermons on morality to India vis-a-vis New Delhi&#8217;s desire to seek permanent seat at the UN Security Council.
> 
> The spokesman said that a foreign policy that is devoid of moral and legal norms and driven solely by real-politik was a recipe for promoting anarchical tendencies in international relations.
> 
> He said in the pursuit of its foreign policy, Pakistan had always upheld the principles of international law.
> 
> Abdul Basit said, &#8220;India&#8217;s aversion to moral and legal norms is understandable given the fact that it continues to violate the principles as enshrined in the UN charter and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as well as several UN resolutions.&#8221;



I think Pakistan is the only country that is against India's UNSC aim but what can Pakistan do to stop India? The 'Coffee Club' is old now and all the members are in favor of India now and its proved in recent elections.

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## Vajra_Yuddh

Internal matter! No need for a foreign country to meddle in our internal affairs. We don't tell Pakistan how it should manage FATA or Balochistan.


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## Vajra_Yuddh

Areesh said:


> Huh... Zaid hamid has very much occupied you guys.
> 
> Anyways
> 
> 
> 
> No but you can search on any search engine with the keywords like maoists, secessionists movements in India, farmer suicides, female infanticides etc etc. I know internet is your friend too and you can do it too.


We certainly have big issues agreed. We are a big country after all with a huge population. 

But I think Pakistan should focus on its own internal chaos like debted economy, growing radicalism, falling currency, unemployment increasing, rampant bomb attacks, illegal border movement with Afghanistan, balochistan secessionist movement, uncontrollable FATA etc, than asking us what to do. Non-involvement in each others' matters will lead to better and more genuine peace than this meddlesome approach.

You solve your problem your way, we will solve ours. Thanks for the offer but we don't need help.


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## jatayu

Let Pakistan fulfill its own peoples aspiration like swat, bouluchisthan, Islamic extremist etc etc and they they can lecture about our internal issues. Did I forgot to tell Indian is DEMOCRATIC country our people decide whice is good for us not by the few generals


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## Malik Usman

In United Nations Resolution Kashmir is a disputed area between India and Pakistan. And the Kashmiri Peoples will decide weather they want to live with Pakistan or India...If fair elections held there.

So Indians can't claim that this is there Internal matter......Now the time came Indians really need to understand they can't control the voices of peoples in Kashmir.........What's going right now in Kashmir if Indian still thinks its part of India then nobody can't do anything if they are in denial mood...by knowing the reality.
The ground reality in this time not even men, women and children are too on the streets to protest against Indian army which is illegally occupying Kashmir. And every day lot's of Kashmiri peoples are dying there due to Indian Army's killings. 

"Even Today in Jammu Kashmir on 14th August Pakistan's National Day Pakistan Flag is raised and saluted....and on 15th August on India's National day people celebrate this as black day.

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## deckingraj

Malik Usman said:


> In United Nations Resolution Kashmir is a disputed area between India and Pakistan. And the Kashmiri Peoples will decide weather they want to live with Pakistan or India...If fair elections held there.
> 
> So Indians can't claim that this is there Internal matter......Now the time came Indians really need to understand they can't control the voices of peoples in Kashmir.........What's going right now in Kashmir if Indian still thinks its part of India then nobody can't do anything if they are in denial mood...by knowing the reality.
> The ground reality in this time not even men, women and children are too on the streets to protest against Indian army which is illegally occupying Kashmir. And every day lot's of Kashmiri peoples are dying there due to Indian Army's killings.
> 
> "Even Today in Jammu Kashmir on 14th August Pakistan's National Day Pakistan Flag is raised and saluted....and on 15th August on India's National day people celebrate this as black day.




That is the crux of the problem...You think we are not looking at the ground reality and we think it is you who are not accepting the ground reality....Pakistan can do whatever they want to but no one can snatch an inch of Kashmir from us and we are in no mood to give it either...


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## Kinetic

Malik Usman said:


> In United Nations Resolution Kashmir is a disputed area between India and Pakistan. And the Kashmiri Peoples will decide weather they want to live with Pakistan or India...If fair elections held there.


There will not be any election and 'if' there it is than also it cannot be 'fair' because....

1) Many of the Kashimiris are out of Kashmir after militancy started 20 years back, specially Pandits. 

2) Most of the people in Pakistani Kashmir are not Kashmiris.

3) *Kashmir is violent now, so no such election that question India's integrity. If the situation have been like before militancy started than there would have a question of election.*



> So Indians can't claim that this is there Internal matter......Now the time came Indians really need to understand they can't control the voices of peoples in Kashmir.........*What's going right now in Kashmir if Indian still thinks its part of India then nobody can't do anything* if they are in denial mood...by knowing the reality.



Agreed with the bold part, no one can't do anything. Thats the *ground reality*!!!! Pakistan must understand this!!! 






> The ground reality in this time not even men, women and children are too on the streets to protest against Indian army which is illegally occupying Kashmir. And every day lot's of Kashmiri peoples are dying there due to Indian Army's killings.



Do Pakistan army kill anyone inside Pakistan, than why? For your knowledge IA only kills militants and for law and order situation it is CRPF and state police. 



> "Even Today in Jammu Kashmir on 14th August Pakistan's National Day Pakistan Flag is raised and saluted....and on 15th August on India's National day people celebrate this as black day.



For last 63 years there are elected govts, public servants, police in Kashmir as well that is a clear sign for Pakistan as well. *If militancy wasn't started 20 years back than Kashmir should have different now. *


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## Kinetic

Areesh said:


> No the ones which sacrifice kids in front of Kali mata.



This man is sick!!!!


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## Surrender2me

Malik Usman said:


> *In United Nations Resolution Kashmir is a disputed area between India and Pakistan*. And the Kashmiri Peoples will decide weather they want to live with Pakistan or India...If fair elections held there.
> 
> So Indians can't claim that this is there Internal matter......Now the time came Indians really need to understand they can't control the voices of peoples in Kashmir.........What's going right now in Kashmir if Indian still thinks its part of India then nobody can't do anything if they are in denial mood...by knowing the reality.
> The ground reality in this time not even men, women and children are too on the streets to protest against Indian army which is illegally occupying Kashmir. And every day lot's of Kashmiri peoples are dying there due to Indian Army's killings.
> 
> .


maybe u should see this report:-


> Pakistan has objected to the exclusion of Kashmir from a list of disputes under the observation of the Security Council as mentioned by the UK's top diplomat in an annual debate on UNSC reforms here.





> Secretary-General* Ban Ki-moon had said that the UN will not intervene in Kashmir issue until requested by both the parties -- India and Pakistan. *





> As far as this role of good offices is concerned, the United Nations normally *takes that initiative when requested by both parties concerned*," Ban said in October.



For full report check this link
Pak objects to no mention of Kashmir in UN list of disputes

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## Awesome

foxbat said:


> You are assuming that there are no Kashmiri Pandits in VHP..


It's not my assumption, two groups have been mentioned by name. Kashmir Punan (Pandits) and VHP (Hindu Right-wing).

Also people claiming no reputable source has mentioned right-wing Hindu parties, just one simple google revealed your most reputable source saying this:

The Hindu : Front Page : Chaos as Mirwaiz is heckled at Chandigarh seminar



> Kashmiri leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq speaking at a seminar under heavy security following a violent protest by Kashmiri Pandits *and *activists of right-wing Hindu organisations in Chandigarh on Thursday.





> Akkhan walay Annay... Anyone???


Indeed.


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## Awesome

Old Srinagar Flares Up Against Attack On Mirwaiz



> Srinagar, Nov 25, KONS: Tension gripped parts old Srinagar on Thursday as groups of protesting youth took to the streets after reports that Mirwaiz Umer Farooq had been injured in an attack by Sangh Parivar activists during a seminar in Chandigarh.
> 
> Shops closed down in the Mirwaiz stronghold of Nauthatta, Rajouri Kadal and adjoining areas, and clashes broke out in several localities where groups of protestors pelted stones at the police and the paramilitary forces.
> 
> Traffic in the busy area was disrupted for several hours and the streets wore a deserted look as protests rocked the politically volatile quarters of the city.
> 
> Large crowds chanting pro-Mirwaiz and freedom slogans took to the streets in Nawab Bazaar, Bohri Kadal, Gojwara, Rainawari and adjacent areas, and clashed with the forces, with the latter trying to quell brick-batting with cane-charges and tear gas.
> 
> The police and the paramilitary forces were attacked at a number of placed in Nawab Bazaar, triggering off prolonged clashes that closed down commercial activity and sent traffic off the roads.
> 
> Strong protests were also reported from Nawa Kadal and Saraf Kadal.
> Additional forces were moved into the old city to keep the situation under control, and authorities announced curfew in five of its police precincts late in the evening to pre-empt trouble on Friday when congregational prayers are held at the Jamai Masjid.
> 
> The restrictions have also been imposed in view of Syed Ali Shah Geelanis call to the martyrs Graveyard at Eidgah to lay the foundation stone for a resistance memorial.



Consequences.


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## EjazR

*1000 CRPF personnel, 10 more bunkers to go from Srinagar*

* Jammu: In a major decision, Jammu and Kashmir Government today ordered withdrawal of nearly 1000 CRPF personnel from Srinagar town besides removal of 10 more bunkers as part of its peace initiative to make life easy for the people of the state.*

Chief Minister Omar Abdullah cleared the proposal this evening after assessing the law and order situation in the Valley, which has seen a violent summer this year, official sources said here.

According to the sources, 10 more bunkers will be removed from Srinagar city raising the number of bunkers removed to 26 since October five.

A plan had been worked out by the local police with the CRPF in consultations with the security agencies for withdrawal of one battalion of the CRPF (1000 personnel) from the city, a move which is seen in tandem with the Chief Minister's promise of reducing foot prints of security personnel in the civilian population if there was an improvement in the situation.

Earlier, as per the decision of the unified headquarters, 16 bunkers were to be removed.

The CRPF has been assisting the state police in maintenance of law and order in Srinagar and other towns and its personnel are manning the bunkers dotting the city.

The Centre had also requested the state government to review the deployment of security forces in Kashmir Valley with particular reference to descaling the number of bunkers and check-points in Srinagar and other towns, and to review the notification of areas as 'disturbed areas'.


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## GUNS-N- ROSES

good job done. much needed.


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## third eye

Asim Aquil said:


> Consequences.



Neither unexpected nor new.

Maybe GOI shall now wake up & apply the brakes on ppl like these who do not seem to realise that the only way for change in India is thru the ballot.

None of them have the courage to contest an election. They simply are on the wrong bus.


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## foxbat

Asim Aquil said:


> It's not my assumption, two groups have been mentioned by name. Kashmir Punan (Pandits) and VHP (Hindu Right-wing).
> 
> Also people claiming no reputable source has mentioned right-wing Hindu parties, just one simple google revealed your most reputable source saying this:
> 
> The Hindu : Front Page : Chaos as Mirwaiz is heckled at Chandigarh seminar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed.




Asim, the same reputable sources (both Indian and Pakistani) when talk about some summons that are making a lot of waves last couple of days, need proof and verification. But if the even make a qualified statement like _"*allegedly *by activists of right-wing Hindu organisations and Kashmiri Pandits"_, it suddenly becomes the source of absolute truth ??

But "Akkhan walay Annay... Anyone" comment was for the balance part of my post..


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## Ammyy

Yes their are some tension when news reached their but luckily nothing happened ..


Shopkeeper shut their shops and public transport stop for the day because fear of some paid protesters.


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## Ganguly

Look Who's Talking. Before lecturing India on human rights please refresh your memory what happened to Asma Jahangir. 

*House arrest*

On November 5, 2007, The Economist reported that "Over 500 lawyers, opposition politicians and human rights activists have been arrested. They include Asma Jahangir, boss of the country&#8217;s human-rights commission and a former UN special rapporteur. In an e-mail from her house arrest, where she has been placed for 90 days, Ms Jahangir regretted that General Musharraf had "lost his marbles".

*Threats*
Jahangir has received numerous threats over the years due to her activism and human rights work[4][24] and particularly after defending a 14 year old Christian boy, Salamat Masih, accused of blasphemy[25][26] and ultimately winning the case in 1995,[27] a mob at the High Court smashed Jahangir's car, assaulted her and her driver, threatening her with death.[28] Jahangir and her family have been attacked, taken hostage, had their home broken into and received death threats ever since, but she continues her battle for justice.[10][29][30]

When Jahangir undertook the case of Saima Sarwar in 1999, who was given shelter at Dastak after leaving her husband, wanting a divorce and later gunned down by her family in an act of honor killing, Jahangir received death threats for representing Saima in her divorce proceedings.[31][32][33][34]

In May 2005 Jahangir announced that she would hold a symbolic mixed-gender marathon in Lahore to raise awareness about violence against women. This was following the revelations of cases such as Mukhtar Mai. Tensions boiled over, as Islamist groups and supporters of the political Islamist alliance Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA) armed with firearms, batons and Molotov cocktails,[35] *violently opposed the race, and Jahangir received especially rough treatment from local police and intelligence agents, who began to strip off her clothes in public.* Of this Jahangir said "*A lot of people tried to cover my back because I could only feel it I could not see my back. When they were putting me on the police van, they assured that my photograph was taken while my back was bare. This was just to humiliate, this was simply just to humiliate me*."[36] *A police officer told Jahangir that they had orders to be strict and to tear off the participant&#8217;s clothes. In addition she along with other participants was also beaten*.[37]

Shortly after the assassination of Benazir Bhutto, on December 31, 2007, Jahangir's daughter Munizae accompanied by 3 friends and her younger sister, Sulema, was making a video clip for TV channel, GEO TV, filming the ripped posters and banners of the political parties in Gulberg area of Lahore city. *They were kidnapped by armed men from the Pakistan Muslim League (Q) (PML-Q), severely beaten, abused and illegally detained (the girls were dragged and locked up in the office of the son of the outgoing Punjab Chief Minister).* Asma Jahangir managed to intervene, despite initially being physically restrained, refused entry and threatened with guns, and called the police, who supported the armed men, insisting the girls hand over the tape. The police then threatened the parents of the girls that if any charges were pressed, the girls would be kidnapped, raped and killed.[38][39]


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## Ammyy

*Attack on Mirwaiz reaction to separatists' politics: Omar* 

Jammu and Kashmir chief minister Omar Abdullah has described the attack on Hurriyat Conference chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq in Chandigarh on Thursday as a "reaction to the kind of politics and policy" of the separatist leaders. Reacting to reports of the attack on the separatist leadertold reporters on the sidelines of a function in Jammu: "This was bound to happen". 

He said, "It appeared to be a reaction to their politics and policy," indicating that separatist leaders were bound to invite public wrath for speaking against the country and its rule in Jammu and Kashmir.

The chief minister, however, said, "I don't condone the incident."

"We are very proud of our democracy, where the people have liberty to express themselves. Essentially, it's a battle of ideas and ideology," he said.

This is the third incident involving disruption of programmes of separatists.

First, a seminar in Delhi where hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani asked for "freedom of Kashmiris from the Indian rule in Kashmir" in October, was disrupted.

This was followed by the disturbances at a press conference of another separatist leader, Syed Shabir Shah, in Jammu early in November.

The Mirwaiz was roughed up at a seminar in Chandigarh, where he characterised Kashmir as a separate nation.

The Mirwaiz is also the chief cleric of Kashmir.

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## KS

Looks like i had missed the party due to personal reasons.

I still dont understand the fool hardiness in trying to say Kashmir is not a part of India sitting in one of the most patriotic places in India.

Did he think Chandigarh is Lal chowk where he will be cheered irrespective of the BS he talks.Cmon the least he could have done is to be realistic and should have understood how Kashmir is a sensitive topic to the Indians.

Anyway looking forward to his visit to my state.

p.s.: loved he bit where the slogan "bharat mata ki jai" was heard continuously.


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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> And anyone pro-India has to resort to violence? If you have the guts, let him have his say.



When the innocent kashmiri Mulsims can pelt stones,damage public property and do all sorts of wanton violence in the name of self-determinations then why cant the 'Kashmiri' hindu pandits indulge in the same ?? Why the double standards ??

In short im borrowing omar abdullah's words - this kind of reaction is due to the kind of politics these people play and it was expected.

Also *when the kashmiri muslims's violence is purely indigenious how come this work gets attributed to the RSS/VHP ?? Again blatant double standards.This is an indigenous protest by the 'kashmiri' pandits*



Abhishek_ said:


> this incident will erode our credibility dude....what happened to peaceful and law abiding Indians??
> Nobody is above the law, the people who assaulted this guy need to punished.



And Mirwaiz should be punished for sedition - as simple as that.



Areesh said:


> But *weren't they kicked out of IOK*. Highly probabe that they might have spent their childhood in some refugee camp backed by Indian military.



Yes they were kicked out...Thats why they now kicked his rear...So why cry like sissies now ?

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## Abhishek_

Karthic Sri said:


> When the innocent kashmiri Mulsims can pelt stones,damage public property and do all sorts of wanton violence in the name of self-determinations then why cant the 'Kashmiri' hindu pandits indulge in the same ?? Why the double standards ??
> 
> In short im borrowing omar abdullah's words - this kind of reaction is due to the kind of politics these people play and it was expected.
> 
> Also when the kashmiri muslims's violence is purely indigenious how come this work gets attributed to the RSS/VHP ?? Again blatant double standards.This is an indigenous protest by the 'kashmiri' pandits
> 
> *And Mirwaiz should be punished for sedition - as simple as that.*



If he indeed broke the law, put him jail rather than breaking his jaw.
Let Bubba Jr. give him some lovin'


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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> Please tell me what level of abuse and lack of freedom should the *Kashmiri* consider as default? All hypocrisy is by India and the real gutless face of the Indian position on *Kashmir* has been exposed. It is now on tape that India can only silence *Kashmiris* through force.



ROFL..Should I take the pains in reminding you that Pandits are also Kashmiris ?

Or is the tag of 'Kashmiri' only reserved for the stone pelting,flag waving,azaadi chanting ,teenage Muslim youth from the Valley.

Would like a clarification on what is the standard in defence.pk.


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## Agnostic_Indian

Abhishek_ said:


> If he indeed broke the law, put him jail rather than breaking his jaw.
> Let Bubba Jr. give him some lovin'



pandits are just replying to their peaceful stone pelting with peaceful jaw breaking ''

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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> Yes they were kicked out...Thats why they now kicked his rear...So why cry like sissies now ?



In fact they tried to kick Mirwaiz and ended up getting kicked on their backs... These Sardar's of Indian police are doing a very perfect job. The same thing that happened to him in IOK happened in Punjab also.






Poor guys are always at the receiving end whether it is punjab or whether it is IOK.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> In fact they tried to kick Mirwaiz and ended up getting kicked on their backs... These Sardar's of Indian police are doing a very perfect job. The same thing that happened to him in IOK happened in Punjab also.
> 
> Police beating the attackers
> 
> Poor guys are always at the receiving end whether it is punjab or whether it is IOK.



*Lolzzzz......would have loved to see the reaction of these 'Sardars' to Mirwaiz.*


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## Moorkh

Areesh said:


> In fact they tried to kick Mirwaiz and ended up getting kicked on their backs... These Sardar's of Indian police are doing a very perfect job. The same thing that happened to him in IOK happened in Punjab also.
> 
> Police beating the attackers
> 
> Poor guys are always at the receiving end whether it is punjab or whether it is IOK.


1) you seem to be insinuating that the violence against the kashmiri pandits was a good thing. i hope that is not true

2) what was done to him is what should be done to all law breakers in our country, specially rioters and stone pelters.


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## Areesh

Vajra_Yuddh said:


> We certainly have big issues agreed. We are a big country after all with a huge population.



Good. 



> But I think Pakistan should focus on its own internal chaos like debted economy, growing radicalism, falling currency, unemployment increasing, rampant bomb attacks, illegal border movement with Afghanistan, balochistan secessionist movement, uncontrollable FATA etc, than asking us what to do.



Obviously Pakistan should focus. No doubt about it.



> Non-involvement in each others' matters will lead to better and more genuine peace than this meddlesome approach.



Obviously. I hope Indian establishment also believes in your views too.



> You solve your problem your way, we will solve ours.



Best of luck.



> Thanks for the offer but we don't need help.



I never offered any help. Read the posts again.




Kinetic said:


> This man is sick!!!!



Grow up kid.


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## jha

Finally Kashimri Pandits have taken the path which they should have taken from the beginning..I always argued with my kashmiri pandit room-mate that they were too humble..and somehow i always felt that we did not do enough to safeguard the rights of them..
Congrats to their new found aggression and wish them all the best..


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## jha

In fact yesterday i watched a debate on HT and was horrified to find that the Anchor was attacking the Pandits for this .../


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## KS

jha said:


> Finally Kashimri Pandits have taken the path which they should have taken from the beginning..I always argued with my kashmiri pandit room-mate that they were too humble..and somehow i always felt that we did not do enough to safeguard the rights of them..
> Congrats to their new found aggression and wish them all the best..



Yes bro .......We (Indian state) failed miserably in protecting the lives of their families,loved ones and their property.*There is no bigger agony than being forced to live from away your home and seeing the perperators going scot free and being continually appeased* by the Government in the name of 'Peace' initiative.

And congrats from my side also and this reaction from the Pandits is a natural human phenomenon and nothing to be ashamed of.Infact they should be proud of that young man who expressed his pent up feelings and agony. 




jha said:


> In fact yesterday i watched a debate on HT and was horrified to find that the Anchor was attacking the Pandits for this .../



What more can you expect from those shameless trash peddlers masquerading as a news channel huh ?

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## Vajra_Yuddh

Areesh said:


> In fact they tried to kick Mirwaiz and ended up getting kicked on their backs... These Sardar's of Indian police are doing a very perfect job. The same thing that happened to him in IOK happened in Punjab also.
> 
> Police beating the attackers
> 
> Poor guys are always at the receiving end whether it is punjab or whether it is IOK.


Again you point at different branches of faith. Have you realized that this obsession with religion of yours and others is the very cause of your country's present situation?

Please man, stop it before it becomes your inner demon and starts destroying your society.

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## jha

Abir said:


> Not a wise thing to do. It'll only harm Kashmiri Pundits cause and will endanger any of them(if any) still living in Kashmir. *If Mirwaiz wants to talk, let's engage with him more constructively*. Punches and blows won't attain anything!
> 
> Talk, talk is so much better than war, war.



Thats what is being done for last two decades..that is whole 20 years..what is the outcome..??
Unless these Hurriyat people understand that their BS money making movement has ruined life of lakhs of people they will not stop..



Ganguly said:


> Better humiliation for him was to boycott the conference with no media presence, with plenty of flowers & get well soon cards . *We are from the land of Gandhi not from land of Lakhvi. *. Please behave accordingly.



Yes..we are from land of Subhash Chandra Bose and Gandhi..
Tried Gandhi-vaad for 20 years for nothing . Now its time to move on and follow NETAJI..


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## KS

Isnt the thread title wrong ?? I think that the positions of India and pakistan have been inter-changed either by mistake or by choice.

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## KS

*Mirwaiz begins trip to inform Indians about Kashmir*.....

Loks like Indians are in no mood to listen after seeing what happened in chandigarh


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## jha

When is he coming to kolkata..?I might attend..


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## Vajra_Yuddh

Mirwaiz is telling us about a state of our own? LOL! Come on seriously? Looks like he's from outside and not an Indian because we Indians, especially those who's relatives once lived in the state know exactly what happened. 

He should be thankful that we are even letting him come and spread his drab.



> When is he coming to kolkata..?I might attend..



Throw a shoe at his face from my side. I would have recommended a dagger or a grenade but that is taking laws in your hand. A shoe stuck with chewing gum and mud on its sole, straight on his face.


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## AMCA

But we Informed Him what India is In a well Fashioned Manner...


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## jha

Vajra_Yuddh said:


> *Internal matter! No need for a foreign country to meddle in our internal affairs. We don't tell Pakistan how it should manage FATA or Balochistan*.



Totally agree..We dont need lesson from others in our internal matters..


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## jha

Vajra_Yuddh said:


> Throw a shoe at his face from my side. I would have recommended a dagger or a grenade but that is taking laws in your hand. A shoe stuck with chewing gum and mud on its sole, straight on his face.



hehehe..I can attend if i am free...not gonna take leave for him..

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## Awesome

People didn't close shops, India imposed a curfew

Curfew imposed in parts of Srinagar - India - DNA



> Curfew was imposed today in parts of the city to prevent protests and violence in the wake of yesterday's heckling of separatist leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq in Chandigarh and to thwart a rally called by hardline Hurriyat chairman Syed Ali Shah Geelani after Friday prayers.
> 
> "Curfew has been imposed in Rainawari, Nowhatta, Khanyar, Safakadal and Maharajgunj police station areas of the old city," a police spokesperson said.
> 
> In rest of the city, Section 144 CrPC, which prohibits assembly of four or more persons at any public place, has been invoked, he said.
> 
> However, security forces were directed to treat identity cards of government employees and students as curfew passes to enable them to reach their work places and schools respectively, officials said.
> 
> The restrictions were imposed as a pre-emptive measure to foil a rally planned by Geelani at Eidgah in Safakadal area, where hundreds of youth killed in the past 20 years of turmoil are buried, they said.
> 
> Geelani had last week announced construction of a memorial wall for the over 100 persons killed during the recent unrest in the valley and had asked people to bring along a brick each for the purpose.
> 
> The curfew was also imposed in view of the yesterday's violent protest in parts of the old city including Nowhatta, Bohri Kadal, Rajouri Kadal and Kawdara against the heckling of Mirwaiz at a seminar in Chandigarh.
> 
> The authorities clamped down on violent protests after Friday prayers today in old city areas, which are considered to be the stronghold of the moderate Hurriyat chairman, the officials said.
> 
> The restrictions on the movement of the people prevented them from offering congregational prayers at Jamia masjid and other mosques and shrines in the old city.
> 
> Meanwhile, the curfew affected normal life in the city with skeletal transport services plying on the roads in the areas not under restrictions, they said.
> 
> Many private schools remained closed, while some asked the parents to drop their wards at school in order to avoid getting caught in any law and order problem, the officials said.


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## Awesome

... Unhurt, undeterred, Mirwaiz spells out agenda



> After the last of the protesters had been bundled out of the hall, Hurriyat Conference Chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq addressed the gathering. He assured the audience that he was unhurt and such incidents could not deter him from visiting other parts of the country to explain the Kashmir problem to people. He said people with a different point of view should debate. &#8220;If you believe in democracy and justice, talks should be held,&#8221; he said.
> 
> Farooq called Kashmir a disputed territory. He outlined a four-point agenda for the government in order to ensure that conditions conducive to dialogue were created. &#8220;We want that the draconian acts like Armed Forces Special Powers Act be revoked; gradual demilitarisation of Kashmir be done; an independent commission be set up to tackle issues of human rights violations; the political prisoners be released,&#8221; he said.
> 
> Farooq said that there was a need to involve the people of J&K, India and Pakistan in talks in order to find a suitable solution to the problem. &#8220;This is the fourth generation of Kashmiris who are suffering from political instability. For dialogue to take place, there is a need to put an end to the violence in the Valley,&#8221; he said.


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## Spring Onion

Country of Kashmir is under curfew for the last 63 years under occupation of bharat aka India.

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## Awesome

nick_indian said:


> Stuff like this makes India a true democracy because this can only happen in one.
> 
> About mirwaiz , India people are patriots , this wont make a difference plus he will be grilled with questions about kashmiri minorities . Won't work. He will have to try something different.
> 
> The only person it will work on is Dhoti roy .


Actually a true democracy would let him attend the seminars. Instead he's braving an onslaught from the Indians and after being attacked, is just going on and on.


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## jha

Asim Aquil said:


> Actually a true democracy would let him attend the seminars. *Instead he's braving an onslaught from the Indians and after being attacked*, is just going on and on.



Nowhere in a world a traitor is allowed to spew ..Luckily he IS in a true democracy otherwise everbody knows what happens to traitors in non-democratic countries..


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## LaBong

I might attend it too. Where is the seminar being held?


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## AMCA

Asim Aquil said:


> Actually a true democracy would let him attend the seminars. Instead he's braving an onslaught from the Indians and after being attacked, is just going on and on.



You Mis Understood, India actually Facilitated him to Make Speech Not Only In Chandigarh but also In the Capital Like a true Democratic GOVT, But from the Peoples Side,he cannot Expect Democracy especially when he is In Front Of a Crowd Which once was a Victim of His People, So Its Completely his Fault , He should Have been Street Smart and should Posses Right Knowledge while Differentiating between Victims and Normal Crowds. One who does not know Has To Learn it this Way.


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## Awesome

jha said:


> Nowhere in a world a traitor is allowed to spew ..Luckily he IS in a true democracy otherwise everbody knows what happens to traitors in non-democratic countries..


Kashmir being a disputed territory he is legally not against his own country, but a patriot to his nation.

Anyway, he went there to highlight 4 things: 



> &#8220;We want that the draconian acts like Armed Forces Special Powers Act be revoked; gradual demilitarisation of Kashmir be done; an independent commission be set up to tackle issues of human rights violations; the political prisoners be released,


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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> Kashmir being a disputed territory he is legally not against his own country, but a patriot to his nation.



Fine --- let him be a patriot or freedom fighter or a separatist in his 'country'.

Chandigarh is in India and any anti-India BS will be met with only these kind of things. After all who had protested - they are also 'compatriots' of Mirwaiz. (For your delight the country mentioned here is Kashmir)



Asim Aquil said:


> Anyway, he went there to highlight 4 things:



Let him do that from the safety of Lal Chowk not from anywhere else.


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## Awesome

Karthic Sri said:


> Fine --- let him be a patriot or freedom fighter or a separatist in his 'country'.
> 
> Chandigarh is in India and any anti-India BS will be met with only these kind of things. After all who had protested - they are also 'compatriots' of Mirwaiz. (For your delight the country mentioned here is Kashmir)
> 
> 
> 
> Let him do that from the safety of Lal Chowk not from anywhere else.


Why is India a country that wants to see its armed forces commit human rights violations?


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## Awesome

AMCA said:


> You Mis Understood, India actually Facilitated him to Make Speech Not Only In Chandigarh but also In the Capital Like a true Democratic GOVT, But from the Peoples Side,he cannot Expect Democracy especially when he is In Front Of a Crowd Which once was a Victim of His People, So Its Completely his Fault , He should Have been Street Smart and should Posses Right Knowledge while Differentiating between Victims and Normal Crowds. One who does not know Has To Learn it this Way.


He followed the law of the land and did not campaign for Azadi, but pointed out the violations of human rights being committed by India - something all Indians should be in support of but, apparently there's no guarantee.


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## Ammyy

Jana said:


> Country of Kashmir is under curfew for the last 63 years under occupation of bharat aka India.



And azad kashmir is really azad 
Double faced


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## AMCA

Asim Aquil said:


> He followed the law of the land and did not campaign for Azadi, but pointed out the violations of human rights being committed by India - something all Indians should be in support of but, apparently there's no guarantee.



As I said, This Human rights should Have been Shown by them Aswell towards the Hindu Pandits... Did they have the Courtesy in doing so?? If Not How Can they Expect it??


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## Ammyy

Kashmir belongs to kashmiri pandits also so what about their human right 

By this we find out how credible this farooq is ...... 
*
Best of luck to him hope he will get a lot gifts same he got in chandigad*


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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> Why is India a country that wants to see its armed forces commit human rights violations?



I am not going to answer your wild allegation about some hyper-exaggerated claims of the supposed human rights violations.

I rest peacefully with the thought whatever the IA does is for the betterment of India and I am sure the absolute majority of the Indians are in the same wave-length as me.

As for the opinions of Pakistanis ---- they are free to have their opinions......But it doesnt affect me or my country a bit..So no worries.


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## Qasibr

What a tragedy.


> _Dunya koh hai phir maarka-e-Rooh-o-Badn paish
> Tehzeeb nay apnay darindoon koh ubhaara
> Hai Allah koh pa'amardi-e-Momin par bharosa
> Iblees koh Europe key machinoon kah sahara_
> 
> - Allama Iqbal



We are seeing the viciousness of these vultures(darindoon), what a wonderfully tehzeeb-yaafta(cultured/civilized) nation, the world's biggest democracy. But then again, this is the senseless massacring and slaughtering that democracies historically tend to do. And they always do it with such a sense of self-righteousness. India's role-model democracy is just finishing up it's slaughter of millions of innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, with a tremendous sense of self-righteousness, because they lost 3000 people in some dumb false-flag.


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## Fasih Khan

*26 November 2010 Last updated at 11:47 GMT*

*Curfew in Srinagar to stop protest at graveyard *

*Kashmiris killed in protests against Indian security forces are buried at the cemetery Authorities in Indian-administered Kashmir have imposed a curfew in parts of Srinagar city to prevent people from converging at the "martyrs' graveyard".*

Separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani asked people to bring a brick to build a wall for those killed in 20 years of resistance against Indian rule.

More than 50,000 people have died in the armed conflict between the separatists and the security forces.

The armed conflict has subsided in recent years.

But, the region has seen massive public protests in the past three years. 

Since June, the Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley has seen numerous curfews as the authorities seek to curb protests called by the separatists. 

At least 111 Kashmiris, many of them teenagers, have died in clashes with police during the disturbances.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11844291

*Indian State <mod edit> Simply Can Not Hold Kashmir's Liberation for long Insha' Allah. May Allah Kareem bless the souls of Shuhda'a-e-Kashmir and grant Liberation to Kashmir <mod edit>, which proves that If one keeps going on wrong path and without shame keep repeating the Ills with mixture of countless lies, certainly comes under the wrath of Allah Almighty. Ameen.*


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## Awesome

Now people will be prevented to visit the graves of their loved ones?


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## Qasibr

India is one country that has a history of meddling with all of it's neighbors. Pathan tribesmen crossed into Kashmir in response to India sending it's army into Kashmir in 1948 so get your facts right - it wasn't like "what did you expect India to do" like India was just sitting on it's arse and was reacting to what Pakistan was doing. 

It really seems like India controls what sort of propaganda gets ingrained into their citizenry from a very young age at school.


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## Awesome

DesiGuy said:


> that's what you believe. luckily, Not everyone shares same belief as you. : )


Hold a plebiscite and find out


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## Mirza Jatt

Asim Aquil said:


> Hold a plebiscite and find out



ask your non state actors to stop infiltrating first.

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## Veeru

Asim Aquil said:


> Now people will be prevented to visit the graves of their loved ones?



Nope, we are preventing some radicals not flame religious sentiments for petty political or economical gains.

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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> Hold a plebiscite and find out



PLease hold one in your Kashmir and show us - lesser mortals - the way.


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## Agnostic_Indian

Qasibr said:


> India is one country that has a history of meddling with all of it's neighbors. Pathan tribesmen crossed into Kashmir in response to India sending it's army into Kashmir in 1948 so get your facts right - it wasn't like "what did you expect India to do" like India was just sitting on it's arse and was reacting to what Pakistan was doing.
> 
> It really seems like India controls what sort of propaganda gets ingrained into their citizenry from a very young age at school.



Nice twist..


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Who is geelani ? Does this matter what he says? I don't think on this side of border.


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## Ammyy

B_R_I_C said:


> Who is geelani ? Does this matter what he says? I don't think on this side of border.



No buddy his words matter for those 2% paid protesters


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## Bang Galore

> *Indian State <mod edit> Simply Can Not Hold Kashmir's Liberation for long Insha' Allah. May Allah Kareem bless the souls of Shuhda'a-e-Kashmir and grant Liberation to Kashmir and make India an example of sorrow for world, which proves that If one keeps going on wrong path and without shame keep repeating the Ills with mixture of countless lies, certainly comes under the wrath of Allah Almighty. Ameen.[/B*


*

What is the point of these remarks filled with religious exhortation? Are you not needlessly bringing in religion into the discourse? How do you expect non Muslim members to react to this? Going down this path is needlessly provocative especially since those remarks carry the header "mod edit".

@Asim Aquil: Are these remarks yours in their entirety or have you edited certain words in the op's remarks? Not very clear.*

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## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> Now people will be prevented to visit the graves of their loved ones?



Shame on this separatist leader Syed geelani who again want to start flame ............ and want to connect this with religion ..


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## Awesome

Bang Galore said:


> What is the point of these remarks filled with religious exhortation? Are you not needlessly bringing in religion into the discourse? How do you expect non Muslim members to react to this? Going down this path is needlessly provocative especially since those remarks carry the header *"mod edit".*
> 
> @Asim Aquil: Are these remarks yours in their entirety or have you edited certain words in the op's remarks? Not very clear.


Only removed some parts that were violating the forum's policy. Invoking God, in a man's fight isn't exactly my style you know.

However I can't say I disagree with the dua for Kashmir's liberation.

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## Awesome

DRDO said:


> Shame on this separatist leader Syed geelani who again want to start flame ............ and want to connect this with religion ..


Let everyone go and offer Fatiha over their loved ones at their graves. If everyone wants to see their loved ones in heaven and their murderers in hell, then why blame Geelani, overthrow your leaders who have killed them.

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## ARCHON

Nice step by the government to maintain law and order in the state. 

good going.


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## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> Let everyone go and offer Fatiha over their loved ones at their graves. If everyone wants to see their loved ones in heaven and their murderers in hell, then why blame Geelani, overthrow your leaders who have killed them.



If people want to visit their love ones graves so they can do that

*but why people waiting for geelani`s instruction or their love woke after his comment ?????*

This shows geelani`s intention..


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## AHMED85

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> India is and will always be at war with those who seek to break the country apart.
> 
> *@ Geelani:* Only with you and a few thousand deluded people of the valley.



you must remind the Mujaheddin of Kashmir 
that,s are very sharp. From where they coming and vanished?. after working.

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## Awesome

DRDO said:


> If people want to visit their love ones graves so they can do that
> 
> *but why people waiting for geelani`s instruction or their love waken after his comment ?????*
> 
> This shows geelani`s intention..


Why not? Shouldn't there be freedom to go and pray as you please?

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## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> Why not? Shouldn't there be freedom to go and pray as you please?



Just answer simple question 
*
You need some one else instruction to remember your love ones *


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## ARCHON

Asim Aquil said:


> Why not? Shouldn't there be freedom to go and pray as you please?



But the curfew is to stop *protest* at graveyard, not for praying.


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## Veeru

B_R_I_C said:


> Who is geelani ?



A religious leader of Sunni sect who is using its religious post and Old age for gaining some political gains.

Interestingly he always been Anti India but Indian govt. take care of his security on the expenses of Indian Exchequer.

And you ust know that when USA denied him Visa the Indian govt. take him on specail aircraft and get him operated *"Free of Cost"* for his kidney surgery in Mumbai at the Tata Memorial Hospital successfully.




> Does this matter what he says? I don't think on this side of border.



No....not at all, In fact he can't even win a municipal election and whenever he call for election boycott people of Kashmir defy him and hive vote in large numbers.

But he gets lot of publicity in english media in India and each and every media in pakistan.

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## ARCHON

Veeru said:


> A religious leader of Sunni sect who is using its religious post and Old age for gaining some political gains.
> 
> Interestingly he always been Anti India but Indian govt. take care of his security on the expenses of Indian Exchequer.
> 
> And you ust know that when USA denied him Visa the Indian govt. take him on specail aircraft and get him operated *"Free of Cost"* for his kidney surgery in Mumbai at the Tata Memorial Hospital successfully.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No....not at all, In fact he can't even win a municipal election and whenever he call for election boycott people of Kashmir defy him and hive vote in large numbers.
> 
> But he gets lot of publicity in english media in India and each and every media in pakistan.




Well said .....


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## CaptainJackSparrow

AHMED85 said:


> you must remind the Mujaheddin of Kashmir
> that,s are very sharp. From where they coming and vanished?. after working.



yaar please at least speak English which can be understood. Noone's asking you to be queen victoria but make it legible at least.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

*Alarm bells: Stone-pelters join militant ranks​*
Srinagar : Police and security personnel are reporting a sudden surge in militancy in the Valley with a large number of local boys, who were part of the stone-throwing mobs just months ago, joining the ranks of militant groups, including the Lashkar-e-Toiba.

This is ringing alarm bells in the security establishment. For, one, this shift to the gun comes after a sharp fall in militant violence over the last few years. And, two, because these boys are not crossing over for training  but being trained here  there is an apprehension that groups fighting the Pakistani state across the border may also set up shop here, changing the very dynamics of the conflict.

Police say 150 militants are currently active in north Kashmir alone and in addition to the new local recruits, foreigners are also sneaking in.

Since last summer, police say, there have been 45 infiltration bids and 140 new militants have sneaked in. In fact, the Sopore police is searching for two militants from Chechnya, identified as Usman and Umar  the first time, police claim, Chechens have come to operate in Kashmir.

A confidential report compiled by J&K Police  a copy of which is with The Indian Express  shows how many of the boys arrested were part of the stone-throwing mob.

It reveals that a Lashkar commander Sajad Khan alias Shamas of Batamaloo who operates in Thannamandi, Rajouri, set up a module this October in his native locality in Srinagar.

And 14 youngsters joined it. Police claim that 18 grenades were recovered from them when the module was busted earlier this month. These young boys had no previous connection with militancy, said police, but actively took part in the stone-throwing.

The report has detailed intercepts of phone conversations and call details between Shamas and four of the youngsters who have been arrested. Shamas is still at large.

Police said grenades were recovered from Imtiyaz alias Arsalan, a school dropout and an auto rickshaw driver, who received training in handling and operating hand grenades, pistols and IEDs in a Rajouri camp.

Arsalan has three cases of stone-throwing against him registered in the Batamaloo Police Station. Between October 11 and 14, Shamas and Arsalan spoke as many as 22 times.

Another youngster, Aadil, police say, had grenades in his possession when he was arrested. He was in touch with Shamas too and was involved in grenade attacks on the CRPF at Safakadal and Reck Chowk, Batamaloo on July 4 and July 24.

Sources said 23 youngsters in the age group 15 to 25 have gone missing in the Sopore Police Station area alone. Police claim they have credible inputs that 15 of them have joined militant ranks and three of them have been killed in security operations.

Sources said several teenagers have been recruited in the volatile Zaingir belt where militancy is on a steep rise after the pro-Azadi protests. The Army set up a new camp at Pazalpora after occupying a newly constructed school building. The Army maintains a very high level of presence across the Zaingir belt with a major camp at Watlab on the Wular banks.

Sources said militants have made arrangements to train recruits in the handling of arms and ammunition. There is no input suggesting that these new recruits are exfiltrating across the border for training. Those of the new recruits who have come under our radar are mostly teenagers and the youngest one is just 15 years old, a senior police officer told The Indian Express.

The police are also looking at the case of a separatist politician from Bahrampora, in neighbouring Rafiabad, who has been arrested. He has allegedly been in touch with Furqan, the Lashkars most wanted commander in the Valley.

In adjoining Bandipore, however, police say there are no inputs suggesting fresh recruitments but a group of 25 new militants have arrived and are in the Vewan, Panaar and Sumlar-Chontimulla area.

Sources said Lashkar has sent new commanders identified as Abdullah, Ayoubi and Rehman in Bandipore, which came up as the Lashkars headquarters in Kashmir before 2007.

New recruitments are going on in the Awantipora Police district where reports of five youths joining Lashkar and

Hizbul Mujahideen have been confirmed. Police say that Manzoor Sheikh of Tengpora, Dadsar; Syed Ashiq of Panzgam have joined Lashkar while Adil Mir of Dadsar, Burhan-ud-din of Shariefabad and Showkat Dar of Bachipora, Panzgam have joined the Hizbul.

This new development, security officials say, comes against the backdrop of the widely circulated rhetoric of Al-Qaedas Ayman Al Zawahiri who issued a 10-page policy statement on Pakistan and Kashmir on August 10, 2008 in which he called for the urgent need to liberate (the) Kashmir Jihad from (the corrupt) ISI. 

Alarm bells: Stone-pelters join militant ranks


----------



## LAKHNAVI

Vajra_Yuddh said:


> Did I forget to tell you that I am Indian from my dad's side? Your thinking is twisted by your leaders because the whole reason to encourage you to leave your homes and form another nation was based on doing, believing, hating and not understanding everything we do. This blame goes to your leaders not to us.
> 
> We didn't initiate the war on the state of J&K; your pakhtoon tribesmen did. So what were you expecting us to do? Sit and do nothing?
> 
> What about the militancy that you have been gifting our people for last 25 years? You can reject every allegation just to please yourself but that won't wash the blot away.
> 
> What are u talking about water blocking? Your interior minister himself said that water shortage is due to mismanagement. Now call him our paid agent too because you will only deny what any Indian will say. That is the core of your existence as a separate state. To do everything opposite of what we do.
> 
> 
> 
> Respect we can but not retaliate we cannot. From the latest proof of your one-sided attack was Kargil. We only responded. What do you expect us to do? you violate Geneva conventions on treating prisoners of war badly, you attack our hills and try to take them over and finally when none of this works, use religion as an ideology to create insurgency.
> 
> You have done what you think was right; we are doing what we think is right. In short, the war is only your choice; not ours. However, that doesn't mean we will not defend without mercy.
> 
> Indian military's stand is clear; no initiation from our side for anything; but definitely we be the ones to finish any risen conflict.





where were you all this time


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## KS

Though this is indeed an alarming news,looking it from a different perspective it makes the job of the security forces more easy......


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## Ammyy

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> *Alarm bells: Stone-pelters join militant ranks​*
> Srinagar : Police and security personnel are reporting a sudden surge in militancy in the Valley with a large number of local boys, *who were part of the stone-throwing mobs just months ago, joining the ranks of militant groups, including the Lashkar-e-Toiba.*
> 
> Police say 150 militants are currently active in north Kashmir alone and in addition to the new *local recruits*, foreigners are also sneaking in.
> 
> *A confidential report compiled by J&K Police  a copy of which is with The Indian Express  shows how many of the boys arrested were part of the stone-throwing mob.*
> 
> *And 14 youngsters joined it. Police claim that 18 grenades were recovered from them when the module was busted earlier this month. These young boys had no previous connection with militancy, said police, but actively took part in the stone-throwing.*
> 
> *The report has detailed intercepts of phone conversations and call details between Shamas and four of the youngsters who have been arrested. Shamas is still at large.*
> 
> *Police said grenades were recovered from Imtiyaz alias Arsalan, a school dropout and an auto rickshaw driver, who received training in handling and operating hand grenades, pistols and IEDs in a Rajouri camp.*
> 
> *Arsalan has three cases of stone-throwing against him registered in the Batamaloo Police Station. Between October 11 and 14, Shamas and Arsalan spoke as many as 22 times.*
> 
> *Another youngster, Aadil, police say, had grenades in his possession when he was arrested. He was in touch with Shamas too and was involved in grenade attacks on the CRPF at Safakadal and Reck Chowk, Batamaloo on July 4 and July 24.*
> 
> *Sources said 23 youngsters in the age group 15 to 25 have gone missing in the Sopore Police Station area alone. Police claim they have credible inputs that 15 of them have joined militant ranks and three of them have been killed in security operations.*
> 
> *Sources said militants have made arrangements to train recruits in the handling of arms and ammunition. There is no input suggesting that these new recruits are exfiltrating across the border for training. Those of the new recruits who have come under our radar are mostly teenagers and the youngest one is just 15 years old, a senior police officer told The Indian Express.*
> 
> *The police are also looking at the case of a separatist politician from Bahrampora, in neighbouring Rafiabad, who has been arrested. He has allegedly been in touch with Furqan, the Lashkars most wanted commander in the Valley.
> *
> 
> Alarm bells: Stone-pelters join militant ranks



This is the reality of those paid protesters 



> The police are also looking at the case of a separatist politician from Bahrampora, in neighbouring Rafiabad, who has been arrested. He has allegedly been in touch with Furqan, the Lashkars most wanted commander in the Valley.



A separatist leader who have connection with terrorists


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## Spring Onion

lolzz earlier Indians were saying stones were imported from Pakistan to be thrown on Indian occupier army and paid goons 

and lolzz Indian occupiers are coming up with BS to cover up the indigenous Kashnmiri protests


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## Mirza Jatt

If the news is true, then I would love to see them join these groups..now our soldiers dont have to worry about injury to stone pelters and dont have to show any restraints......job made easier...without any debate on AFSPA.

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## CaptainJackSparrow

Indian Jatt said:


> If the news is true, then I would love to see them join these groups..now our soldiers dont have to worry about injury to stone pelters and dont have to show any restraints.



Han wo toh hai but it is always sad to see the lives of young kids being ruined in such a sad way even more so when they are our countrymen. 

I don't know but I don't really like what we are doing in Kashmir. I'm not saying that we should leave kashmir or anything but at least we must look to have a more humane and people friendly presence there. 

Things like shopian, etc. are not helping our cause anyway.

But then again, it has always been Congress' policy to respond to stupidity with even more stupidity. 

It's sad. Very sad.

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## Mirza Jatt

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Han wo toh hai but it is always sad to see the lives of young kids being ruined in such a sad way even more so when they are our countrymen.
> 
> I don't know but I don't really like what we are doing in Kashmir. I'm not saying that we should leave kashmir or anything but at least we must look to have a more humane and people friendly presence there.
> 
> Things like shopian, etc. are not helping our cause anyway.
> 
> But then again, it has always been Congress' policy to respond to stupidity with even more stupidity.
> 
> It's sad. Very sad.



as someone said..there are only two ways to live..either you respond or you wait for things to change for you...i would pick the earlier one and make sure things work nicely for my country instead of waiting for things to improve by themselves...and while doing so loose our soldiers and reputation and also the face the propaganda against ourselves in our own land(if you understand what I mean).


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Indian Jatt said:


> as someone said..there are only two ways to live..either you respond or you wait for things to change for you...i would pick the earlier one and make sure things work nicely for my country instead of waiting for things to improve by themselves...and while doing so loose our soldiers and reputation and also the face the propaganda against ourselves in our own land(if you understand what I mean).



Yes. And that country includes everyone. These Kashmiri too.


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## Ammyy

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Han wo toh hai but it is always sad to see the lives of young kids being ruined in such a sad way even more so when they are our countrymen.
> 
> I don't know but I don't really like what we are doing in Kashmir. I'm not saying that we should leave kashmir or anything but at least we must look to have a more humane and people friendly presence there.
> 
> Things like shopian, etc. are not helping our cause anyway.
> 
> But then again, it has always been Congress' policy to respond to stupidity with even more stupidity.
> 
> It's sad. Very sad.



Ya its really sad 
*But i think biggest problem their is unemployment *
And also agreed that problem rise because of false policies of congress i think they are biggest Communalism(&#2360;&#2366;&#2350;&#2381;&#2346;&#2381;&#2352;&#2342;&#2366;&#2351;&#2367;&#2325 in India and making public fool 
*
But now climate start to change their ... lots of projects will start their with in 2-3 years 

Also their is a news about CRPF recruitment in J&K today 
Almost 20k youngsters participate in recruitment*


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## Mirza Jatt

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Yes. And that country includes everyone. These Kashmiri too.



yes kashmiris....but not anti India, foreign funded puppets working against the constitution to see India bleed.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Indian Jatt said:


> yes kashmiris....but not anti India, foreign funded puppets working against the constitution to see India bleed.



As strongly as I support taking action against such people, I also support taking action against people responsible for various human right violations etc. 

What are we telling them? That the human rights violations will keep on happening and we will not take any action?

We must accept that there is something that we are doing in a horribly wrong way.

Kuch toh hai jo hum galat kar rahe hain.

*The first step towards solving any problem is to identify that there IS a problem. *


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## Surrender2me

Woow this a very good news indeed..
I hope all those stone-pelters and Anti-india protesters join militants..
And be armed with Ak-47's and fight against Indian Army..
cool news..

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## Mirza Jatt

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> As strongly as I support taking action against such people, I also support taking action against people responsible for various human right violations etc.
> 
> What are we telling them? That the human rights violations will keep on happening and we will not take any action?
> 
> We must accept that there is something that we are doing in a horribly wrong way.
> 
> Kuch toh hai jo hum galat kar rahe hain.
> 
> *The first step towards solving any problem is to identify that there IS a problem. *



I would welcome that move...and am sure that would help us a lot in saving lot of innocent lives..but what to do with people who try to take advantage of the situation and use the clean purpose of Human rights for their own advantage ?? I would like to rectify the msitake that we are making and solve it, but I while its being done, I dont belive in sitting idle to a limit where it starts hurting me.


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## Moorkh

> Han wo toh hai but it is always sad to see the lives of young kids being ruined in such a sad way even more so when they are our countrymen.
> 
> I don't know but I don't really like what we are doing in Kashmir. I'm not saying that we should leave kashmir or anything but at least we must look to have a more humane and people friendly presence there.
> 
> Things like shopian, etc. are not helping our cause anyway.
> 
> But then again, it has always been Congress' policy to respond to stupidity with even more stupidity.
> 
> It's sad. Very sad.



dont underestimate the power of human stupidity


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## KS

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> We must accept that there is something that we are doing in a horribly wrong way.



Yes its wrong - but this is a case of "damned if we do,damned if we dont".

And as such this current approach is the lesser of the evils and I would prefer it.Simple.

I would not bargain with the territorial integrity of my country with anyone - be it a Kashmiri,Assamese or a Tamil.

Any one who thinks he is an Indian can live in India with all rights --- on the contrary if he/she thinks he doesnt fit into the idea called India...then the doors are always open and that includes the kashmiris also.



CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Things like shopian, etc. are not helping our cause anyway.
> 
> .



What does this mean ?? Shopian case has already been proved to be a fake one where the post mortem reports of the girls were doctored by the local doctors under pressure from Separatists to discredit the Sec.forces.

Please dont fall for propaganda.


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## WAR-rior

Jana said:


> lolzz earlier Indians were saying stones were imported from Pakistan to be thrown on Indian occupier army and paid goons
> 
> and lolzz Indian occupiers are coming up with BS to cover up the indigenous Kashnmiri protests



mohtarma, u talking bout indigenous movement on da basis of only some srinagar goons ! leh ladakh (buddhist) and jammu (hindus) wont let kashmir go away.......so u can sleep in peace...... 

aur rahi baat , stone pelters turning militants..they will rest in peace.......

ULTIMATELY PEACE EVERYWHERE.......


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## Awesome

Convenient, Indians are building up their case to shoot at little children.


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## Awesome

If Indians have a case against Mirwaiz, try him in court, why the hooliganism? Deep frustration I guess, I hope JKLF also steps up and joins this hurriyat initiative.

I view the attack on Mirwaiz as nothing but a bully's tantrum at not being able to have his own way.


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## Gabbar

Asim Aquil said:


> Why is India a country that wants to see its armed forces commit human rights violations?



We can ask the same thing on Blochistan but than u will accuse us for going off topic. But you know it and we know it its not, in both cases STATES, I mean federal government, dont want to look weak and loose thier grip on the country. Will Pakistan allow free seminar accros the country on Blochistan where unity of the country is thretened?
Why or Why not?
All Pakistanies may not oppose, I will even say majority of the Pakistanies may not oppose that I idea but if some and mean some Pakistanies oppose and act like hooligans, will you allow us to BRAND all Pakistanies hooligans?


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Asim Aquil said:


> Deep frustration I guess



Of course we are frustrated and , may be, justifiably so.

We are frustrated when these guys like Gilani, Mirwaiz who go around India bashing India with Indian govt. bearing the expenditure of their safety and security.

We are frustrated when People like Gilani, whose medical expenses are and have been paid for by Indian govt., go around the world badmouthing the same country that has given them the freedom to badmouth it.

We are frustrated when these very people who claim to be champions of Kashmiris' rights forget lacs of Kashmiri Pandits who have born even worse fate.

We are frustrated when these people forget why those they claim to represent did not talk against India before 1989?

We are frustrated when they expect GoI to make all compromises without budging an inch from their stand.

Will they get so much freedom in China?

Ask yourself because I already know the answer.

*IT IS VERY FRUSTRATING INDEED!*

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## riCoh

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Of course we are frustrated and , may be, justifiably so.
> 
> We are frustrated when these guys like Gilani, Mirwaiz who go around India bashing India with Indian govt. bearing the expenditure of their safety and security.
> 
> We are frustrated when People like Gilani, whose medical expenses are and have been paid for by Indian govt., go around the world badmouthing the same country that has given them the freedom to badmouth it.
> 
> We are frustrated when these very people who claim to be champions of Kashmiris' rights forget lacs of Kashmiri Pandits who have born even worse fate.
> 
> We are frustrated when these people forget why those they claim to represent did not talk against India before 1989?
> 
> We are frustrated when they expect GoI to make all compromises without budging an inch from their stand.
> 
> Will they get so much freedom in China?
> 
> Ask yourself because I already know the answer.
> 
> *IT IS VERY FRUSTRATING INDEED!*




u just said what most indians feel

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## Jade

Asim Aquil said:


> If Indians have a case against Mirwaiz, try him in court, why the hooliganism? Deep frustration I guess, I hope JKLF also steps up and joins this hurriyat initiative.
> 
> I view the attack on Mirwaiz as nothing but a bully's tantrum at not being able to have his own way.



Generalizing a case of hooliganism by a group to all Indian or to GOI is not at all logical. It is like generalizing Kasab to all Pakistanis, and I am sure most Pakistanis would not agree


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## Nair saab

If he has B@ll's let him come to Mumbai...& talk about azadi...man seniks r waiting for him....PLZZ have a seminar in Mumbai...


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## Awesome

Nair saab said:


> If he has B@ll's let him come to Mumbai...& talk about azadi...man seniks r waiting for him....PLZZ have a seminar in Mumbai...


How many of you would end up getting banned for talking like gali ke ghunday before you get it through that this is not the level of debates welcomed here on Defence.pk?


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## Ganga

Asim Aquil said:


> If Indians have a case against Mirwaiz, try him in court, why the hooliganism? Deep frustration I guess, I hope JKLF also steps up and joins this hurriyat initiative.
> 
> I view the attack on Mirwaiz as nothing but a bully's tantrum at not being able to have his own way.



The attack was carried out by the pandits and not any other community.Their ancestors have been living in Kashmir long before the advent of Islam.Now they are refugees in their own country.No one listens to them . Obviously they are frustrated.The fact that the attacks were carried out by pandits adds a certain amount of legitimacy to it.


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## Awesome

Ganga said:


> The attack was carried out by the pandits and not any other community.Their ancestors have been living in Kashmir long before the advent of Islam.Now they are refugees in their own country.No one listens to them . Obviously they are frustrated.The fact that the attacks were carried out by pandits adds a certain amount of legitimacy to it.


There were also VHP hooligans there. So it was a coordinated attack, never mind that no matter what happened 30 years ago, an attack on Mirwaiz is and always will be illegal.


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## Awesome

Undeterred Hurriyat leaders will attend meet in Kolkata



> The Hurriyat will go ahead with the rest of its public relations programme across the country by attending another seminar in Kolkata on Saturday. A day after he was manhandled at a seminar in Chandigarh, Hurriyat chief Mirwaiz Umar Farooq on Friday said the attacks by right-wing activists would not deter them from establishing direct connection with the people of India and seek their cooperation for resolution of the Kashmir problem.
> 
> Yes, we are going ahead with our programme, no matter what some people do to stop us, Mirwaiz told The Indian Express. He said the Hurriyats goal was to put its case before the people of India and let them decide for themselves. We believe in a peaceful resolution of Kashmir. *We want to engage in a dialogue and discussion*.
> 
> Hurriyat leader Bilal Lone, who is accompanying Mirwaiz, denied reports that the Mirwaiz was punched in the face at the Chandigarh meet. Lone said he and the Mirwaiz would proceed to Kolkata on Saturday to attend the seminar: Jammu and Kashmir  The Way Forward. Asked whether they were ready for another protest in Kolkata, they said, Yes, we are. 



More and more Kashmiris are going to join the tour and soon echoes of Indian Army's brutality in Kashmir would be sounded in all of India.

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## ARCHON

Mirwaiz begins trip to inform Indians about Kashmir.

most welcome


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## Awesome

Agencies want to sabotage Awareness Campaign: Mirwaiz | Kashmir Media Service



> Chandigarh, November 26 (KMS): The Chairman of All Parties Hurriyet Conference (APHC), Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, who was attacked by the hoodlums of Hindu extremist organisation on Thursday during a seminar on Kashmir here, has said that the cowardice attack by these elements will not stop him from reaching out to the people of India for resolving the Kashmir dispute.
> 
> Mirwaiz Umar Farooq in a media interview said that the Indian agencies wanted to prevent him from informing the people of India about the continued human rights abuses perpetrated by Indian troops in the occupied territory. *We are determined to represent the sentiments and aspirations of Kashmiris everywhere*, he added.
> 
> He said that he would participate in seminars in Kolkata, New Delhi and Luckhnow on Kashmir and would also meet the envoys of Islamic countries in New Delhi as a part of awareness campaign to apprise them about curbs imposed on prayers in the Valley.
> 
> The APHC Chairman said, We made conscious decision of reaching to the citizens of India at this critical juncture of Kashmiris liberation movement and no force can stop us from our mission of educating them about the need for Kashmir settlement.




---------- Post added at 09:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:27 AM ----------

Mirwaiz Attackers Communal Fanatics: Hurriyat (G)



> Srinagar, Nov 26, KONS: Strongly condemning the attack on its chairman, Mirwaiz Umer Farooq, and senior leader, Bilal Ghani Lone, in Chandigarh yesterday, the Hurriyat (M) on Friday said that the government would solely responsible for the consequences if it failed to curb such communal fanatics.
> 
> &#8220;Though the government clamped curfew in the old city and sealed off the Jamai Masjid to prevent a reaction to the attack, congregations elsewhere in the valley strongly condemned the cowardly assault,&#8221; the Hurriyat (M) said.
> 
> &#8220;Speakers at these congregations held the government directly responsible for the murderous attack, and warned the centre of dire consequences if it did not rein in such communal fanatics,&#8221; it said.
> 
> The chairman of the Democratic Forum, Bhushan Bazaaz, also condemned the attack on the Mirwaiz, saying that such acts were intolerable.
> 
> He said that the attack was carried out under a plan to spark off communal strife in the valley.
> &#8220;But such acts cannot suppress the legitimate struggle of the people,&#8221; he said, appealing for maintaining communal harmony at all costs.
> 
> Akalis Flay Assault on Mirwaiz
> All India Shiromani Akali Dal (J&K) today condemned the attack on Mirwaiz Umer Farooq and Bilal Gani Lone at Chandigarh.
> 
> &#8221;It is the handiwork of those forces who want to create wedge between the sections of Kashmiri society and to communalize the issue of Kashmir&#8221; Dal said in a statement.
> 
> &#8220;It is our utmost duty to defeat the nefarious designs those who want to fragment the age old tradition of Kashmiriyat in the guise of nationalism and democracy&#8221;.
> 
> &#8221;They pretend to be Indians but are in fact violating the Indian ethos&#8221;, it said.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

It's a good thing in fact. I do agree that we have made some human rights blunders in the Valley (with both the Muslims and the Kashmiri Pandits). These things will only draw people's attention to the problem and force GoI to address some glaring problems including that of Kashmiri Pandits. 

*Baat niklegi, toh door tak jayegi!*3


P.S. @ My Pakistani friends. Don't get too excited. We are not leaving Kashmir.Never. Never, ever!


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## ARCHON

Welcome to mirwaiz for *awareness* programme.


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## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> Convenient, Indians are building up their case to shoot at little children.



Dnt wary we dnt need excuse ....

And little children with gun ............


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## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> There were also VHP hooligans there. So it was a coordinated attack, never mind that no matter what happened 30 years ago, an attack on Mirwaiz is and always will be illegal.



Its your thinking not our 

We welcome farooq with same gift that he got in Chandighad


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Asim Aquil said:


> More and more Kashmiris are going to join the tour and soon echoes of Indian Army's brutality in Kashmir would be sounded in all of India.



No need to single out Indian army. If the army is brutal, it means every Indian is brutal. It means I'm brutal. It means my family is brutal. 

The army is a part of our minds, bodies and souls.

BUT! The army IS NOT brutal. Calling the army brutal is nothing but a gross generalization and misrepresentation of facts.

Some people in the army have made mistakes as per human rights for which they must be punished but it is quite unfair to pin whole of the blame on the army alone.

The army is there because I and other Indians want it to be there.

Moreover, any conflict anywhere in the world is bound to be replete with human rights violations.

Did Pakistan army not violate human rights in its SWAT and south Waziristan operations against the Taliban?

Did the US not violate human rights in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Any army in the world, when it goes into operations, does commit some human rights violations.

Also, the army is not alone in this. It actually is a mess started by Pakistan in 1989. Remember, there was no army there till 1989.

**** HAPPENS!

But it must be cleaned later on. That much, I agree upon.

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## Rig Vedic

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Did Pakistan army not violate human rights in east pakistan in 1971?
> 
> **** HAPPENS!
> 
> But it must be cleaned later on. That much, I agree upon.



Please don't compare the genocide in East Pakistan with the anti-terrorist operations in J&K.

On topic .. yes it would be good to let them speak and expose their hollowness. 

Apart from some Wahhabized elements in the Kashmir valley (which itself is a very small part of J&K), these chaps speak for nobody.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Rig Vedic said:


> Please don't compare the genocide in East Pakistan with the anti-terrorist operations in J&K.



I'm not equating the two. Not at all.

But anyways, let me edit it.


----------



## Awesome

Talk on topic, its easy to invoke holy hell by dragging up history books but what is wrong and what is in front of you is clear.

The 4 point agenda clearly only mentions Kashmir's issues, and their resolutions not the azadi thing


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Asim Aquil said:


> Talk on topic, its easy to invoke holy hell by dragging up history books but what is wrong and what is in front of you is clear.
> 
> The 4 point agenda clearly only mentions Kashmir's issues, and their resolutions not the azadi thing



Again! All these agendas ask only India to make all the compromises. One sided compromises are not acceptable.

This Gilani guy could not stop protesters from pelting stones and hence indulging in violence. 

This Mirwaiz guy could not keep people from torching police stations.

They don't have any control on their own people whom they claim to represent. 

Why should we give these guys any importance?


----------



## Awesome

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Again! All these agendas ask only India to make all the compromises. One sided compromises are not acceptable.
> 
> This Gilani guy could not stop protesters from pelting stones and hence indulging in violence.
> 
> This Mirwaiz guy could not keep people from torching police stations.
> 
> They don't have any control on their own people whom they claim to represent.
> 
> Why should we give these guys any importance?


Let them speak and let Indians make their own decisions. Speaking should be every human's right.


----------



## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> Let them speak and let Indians make their own decisions. Speaking should be every human's right.



No one stopping him to put his views 

He was beaten by kashmiri pandits cause he told "I am came from Kashmir to Hindustan" 

No one is allowed to talk against India


----------



## CaptainJackSparrow

Asim Aquil said:


> Let them speak and let Indians make their own decisions. Speaking should be every human's right.



And nobody is stopping them from speaking. In fact the government itself provides full security to these guys whenever they venture out of home.

The govt. is doing what is righteous i.e. letting them speak and voice their opinion.

But please don't equate the general people with the govt.

Many people do not like what these guys say for those people have borne the main brunt of this Kashmir thingy. People like Kashmiri Pandits. 

Sadly, no one listens to them who live like refugees in their own country.

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## Awesome

The Associated Press: Kashmir rapper uses rhymes to protest Indian rule



> SRINAGAR, India (AP)  If you ask MC Kash, he's just speaking the truth. But Kashmir's breakout rapper's songs court rebellion and could land him in jail.
> 
> Kash calls himself a rebel who uses sharp rhymes and beats instead of stones or guns to protest India's rule over the mostly Muslim region in the Himalayas.
> 
> Kash, 20, whose real name is Roushan Illahi, has won a fan base among Kashmir's youth, whose summer uprising against Indian rule inspired his local hit "I Protest."
> 
> The lyrics  "Tales from the dark side of a murderous regime, an endless occupation of our land an' our dreams"  tread dangerously close to sedition in India, where questioning the country's claim to the disputed region of Kashmir is illegal.
> 
> "Rap is about straight talk and telling truth in the face, however uncomfortable it may be," the rapper said on a gloomy autumn day in the region's capital, Srinagar. "Rap is rebellion. Kashmir is rebellion. MC Kash is rebellion against injustice, oppression and falsehood."
> 
> Kash admitted he was scared last month after remarks by Booker Prize-winning author Arundhati Roy questioning India's claim to Kashmir generated angry demands for her arrest.
> 
> "Then I thought, revolutionaries don't fear persecution or execution," Kash said. "If they throw me in the prison ... I'll write on the (prison) walls."
> 
> Authorities deny going after those who are using the Internet or music as an outlet for their protests, saying their focus instead is on street protesters who hurl stones at law enforcement officers.
> 
> "Youth by nature are rebellious. But if it's going out of control, we would like to check it," said Shiv Murari Sahai, a top police officer.
> Both India and Pakistan claimed sovereignty over Kashmir when they were divided at the end of British rule in 1947. Since then, India has governed most of the territory and Pakistan holds much of the rest.
> 
> Stuck in the middle of the dispute are Kashmir's 10 million people, and for many, anti-India sentiment runs deep after decades of violent turmoil. Separatist insurgencies and crackdowns by the hundreds of thousands of Indian troops deployed in the Indian-administered portion have killed more than 68,000, most of them civilians.
> 
> Since June, tens of thousands of Kashmiris have risen up against Indian rule again. At least 111  mostly teenage boys and young men  have been killed in the five months of clashes with government forces, and hundreds more have been arrested.
> 
> Kash grew up with his physician father and schoolteacher mother in Srinagar at a time when India's army was hammering the region to crush a rebellion that erupted in 1989. Government forces were engaging in regular gunbattles with the rebels, raiding homes in search of suspects and arresting people off the streets. Neighborhoods were cordoned off and security checkpoints set up across the region.
> 
> "People like Illahi are a new generation of Kashmiri artists who have experienced enough fear not to be intimidated anymore," local sociologist Wasim Bhat said.
> 
> There is a long tradition in Kashmir of writing protest songs, but they are usually in the local Urdu and Kashmiri languages so do not have much impact outside the region. There is even a popular, rap-like genre of traditional Kashmiri folk music called ladi shah, in which artists go from village to village to sing about contemporary issues.
> 
> But Kash said he chose to rap in English because "I wanted the world to know what's happening in Kashmir."
> 
> He started writing poetry when he was 10, and now studies business administration in a college in Srinagar. Using his own money, he went to a local studio last year and with a computer recorded his first rap song, "Moment of Truth," after watching a film on the 2008-09 Israeli-Palestinian war in Gaza.
> 
> "I cried and cried" because the same thing "was happening here in my land," Kash said.
> 
> Since June, authorities in Kashmir have continued to impose rigid curfews as separatist leaders call for more strikes and protests.
> Kash made his third song, "I Protest," in September.
> 
> "I thought about these young martyrs and their mothers, and then I thought to put this pain of Kashmir in music," he said.
> 
> The result was a highly political and emotional song naming the 65 people killed up to September, and saying "these killings ain't random, it's an organized genocide."
> 
> Kash released the song on the online music site Reverbnation, where his profile photo shows a crewcut youth wearing a red-hooded sweat shirt and a tough expression.
> 
> The song rails against "a murderous oppression written down in police brutality" and vows "I'll throw stones an' neva run. I protest, until my freedom has come!"
> 
> It was an instant hit with Kashmiri students, some of whom combined the song with videos and photos on YouTube and Facebook.
> 
> Kash was not arrested, but police raided the recording studio and questioned staff about his whereabouts, according to one worker who refused to be named for fear of police reprisal.
> 
> "Police were particularly asking if any separatist leader was behind the rapper," the studio worker said.
> 
> The studio will not let Kash record his new song, also about Kashmir. Kash said he was looking for other outlets, including possibly a local concert with Indian rappers.
> 
> But already within Kashmir, Kash has inspired a handful of other youths to start rapping, recording hip-hop compositions on home computers and connecting with artists outside Kashmir. One 16-year-old boy who calls himself Renegade recently uploaded two songs on Reverbnation, but removed them after a few days, fearing reprisals.
> 
> A 19-year-old, Saqib Mohammed, is soon releasing "The Revolution," his first rap song.
> 
> "MC Kash is showing us a way to express our desire through art," he said.



Seems like all of Kashmir is mobilized for Azaadi, and there will be no stopping this flood as it gains momentum

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## Awesome

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> And nobody is stopping them from speaking. In fact the government itself provides full security to these guys whenever they venture out of home.
> 
> The govt. is doing what is righteous i.e. letting them speak and voice their opinion.
> 
> But please don't equate the general people with the govt.
> 
> Many people do not like what these guys say for those people have borne the main brunt of this Kashmir thingy. People like Kashmiri Pandits.
> 
> Sadly, no one listens to them who live like refugees in their own country.


If the general people are mobbing him, then the police should shoot them and make sure he is allowed to speak.

You can't call it providing security while the police allows the people to commit crimes against him.


----------



## Awesome

DRDO said:


> No one stopping him to put his views
> 
> He was beaten by kashmiri pandits cause he told "I am came from Kashmir to Hindustan"
> 
> No one is allowed to talk against India


And Vishwa Hindu Prasad/RSS activists. He can say anything he wants to, thats no reason to attack him.

India should learn the concepts of free speech before calling itself a democracy


----------



## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> And Vishwa Hindu Prasad/RSS activists. He can say anything he wants to, thats no reason to attack him.
> 
> India should learn the concepts of free speech before calling itself a democracy



What they (VHP,RSS) did that was against India 

First you make clear what you want to say.


----------



## CaptainJackSparrow

Asim Aquil said:


> And Vishwa Hindu Prasad/RSS activists. He can say anything he wants to, thats no reason to attack him.



As much as you are willing to believe that there were VHP/RSS people there, I'm willing to believe there were not. We are only basing our views on media reports after all.

BTW, even if the VHP/RSS guys were there, it doesn't mean that Kashmiri Pundits were NOT there. Moreover, even VHP and RSS have a right to voice their opinion.

Violence, however, is not welcome.



Asim Aquil said:


> India should learn the concepts of free speech before calling itself a democracy



We are actually an evolving democracy. 

Can you call yours a democracy (keeping aside the army for a minute)? NO! You are also evolving as a democracy. It's just that we are at a far advanced stage of evolution than you.


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## Awesome

I like that, "I Protest". Count me in.


----------



## Awesome

If anyone has videos of this guy's songs, please post.


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## Awesome

The bravery of Mirwaiz is that he will goto Kolkata against all odds facing off another Hindu-right wing onslaught. 

But this will continue now that more Hurriyat Leaders are joining in, sooner or later your goons would have to give in and let them speak.


----------



## Bhim

They would have been deterred if the Govt wanted, but instead they get the protection and escort.

Now this is democracy.

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## Awesome

Bhim said:


> They would have been deterred if the Govt wanted, but instead they get the protection and escort.
> 
> Now this is democracy.


Let's see if they allow him to speak freely this time. Making sure riots and crimes don't happen should be the job of the police, no matter what event is going on.


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## AstanoshKhan

*Yaaraane Jaha Kehte Hay Kashmir Hay Jannat,

Jannat Kisi Kaafir Ko Mili Hay Na Milay Gi,

"I Protest."*

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## CaptainJackSparrow

Asim Aquil said:


> Let's see if they allow him to speak freely this time. Making sure riots and crimes don't happen should be the job of the police, no matter what event is going on.



The police are doing their job but we are an evolving democracy. Why do you forget that?


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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> If the general people are mobbing him, then the p*olice should shoot them and make sure he is allowed to speak.*
> 
> You can't call it providing security while the police allows the people to commit crimes against him.



Woh woh...Just a Min boss......But then why are you guys protesting then when even a tear gas shelll is fired against the Muslim stone pelters in the Valley..?

Why the double standards...The Pandits have every right to express themselves against these separatists elements who are in every way responsible for the Pandits living like refugees in their own country.

Until this hypocrisy is there dont expect any Indian to have a sympathetic attitude towards the Mulsims in the Valley.

And as for the RSS/VHP balderdash is concerned ---- it is similar to Indian blaming Pakistan based LeT for the 4 month long violence in the state.Acceptable ?

*On Topic :* Hope he doesnt indulge in foolish rhetoric like he did in Chandigarh ---- Indians are the same everywhere.Be it Chandigarh,Kolkata or Chennai

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## Infinite Sapience

^^^And you wonder why Kashmiri non muslim minorities are angry and are taking there anger out on separatists!


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## Fasih Khan

*Asim Sahab, Good luck with your Arguments. Have you ever heared the Urdu saying ''Latoon kae Bhoot ...'' Don't waste your energies with meaningful arguments here, Sir with this lot. Kind Advice.*


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## CaptainJackSparrow

lol @ "Go India GO".

Go where? We are already in India boss!


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## Awesome

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> lol @ "Go India GO".
> 
> Go where? We are already in India boss!


Go from Kashmir, obviously


----------



## Jade

I hope more and more Kashmiri separatists tour all India.at least they will understand the idea of India, a land where no ethnicity, no religion and no region is more important than the India itself.


----------



## CaptainJackSparrow

Karthic Sri said:


> Indians are the same everywhere.



Yes! When it comes to safety and territorial integrity, Indians are the same everywhere.

Just because our youth has started wearing jeans, singing rap, dancing to bollywood, wearing mini skirts etc., doesn't mean that youth doesn't love the country.

In fact, let me vouch for it. The Indian youth loves its country at least as much as, if not more than, how much you guys love yours and we would not let anyone break the country. Not as long as we are alive.

The proof is on PDF itself.


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## Fasih Khan

AstanoshKhan said:


> *Yaaraane Jaha Kehte Hay Kashmir Hay Jannat,
> 
> Jannat Kisi Kaafir Ko Mili Hay Na Milay Gi,
> 
> "I Protest."*



*Jazakum Allah Kher .... Count me In as a peaceful citizen of this World .... I Protest on the Brutalities of Indians on Kashmiris.*


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## Awesome

Karthic Sri said:


> Woh woh...Just a Min boss......But then why are you guys protesting then when even a tear gas shelll is fired against the Muslim stone pelters in the Valley..?
> 
> Why the double standards...The Pandits have every right to express themselves against these separatists elements who are in every way responsible for the Pandits living like refugees in their own country.
> 
> Until this hypocrisy is there dont expect any Indian to have a sympathetic attitude towards the Mulsims in the Valley.
> 
> And as for the RSS/VHP balderdash is concerned ---- it is similar to Indian blaming Pakistan based LeT for the 4 month long violence in the state.Acceptable ?
> 
> *On Topic :* Hope he doesnt indulge in foolish rhetoric like he did in Chandigarh ---- Indians are the same everywhere.Be it Chandigarh,Kolkata or Chennai


They are trying to kill someone, murderers should be killed. 

Kashmiri protesters are protesting in disputed territory where fighting the Indian state and all its machinations is their right. Chandigarh and Kolkata are India and hence you will not see Kashmiri protesters fighting the Indian state there.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Asim Aquil said:


> Go from Kashmir, obviously



You can't be serious. Kashmir is India. 


P.S. At least as long as we believe so and are willing to kill or die for it, Kashmir IS an integral part of India.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Asim Aquil said:


> They are trying to kill someone,



And how did you reach this marvelous conclusion?



Asim Aquil said:


> Kashmiri protesters are protesting in disputed territory where fighting the Indian state and all its machinations is their right. Chandigarh and Kolkata are India and hence you will not see Kashmiri protesters fighting the Indian state there.



That is not correct. Recently there was a protests by some kashmiri youth at Jantar Mantar, New Delhi.


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## Awesome

ARCHON said:


> But the curfew is to stop *protest* at graveyard, not for praying.


Depends, if you keep terming everything as protest, then you can get away with everything.

Also isn't protesting a right of the free human?

This is what they wanted to recite on the graves, as all Muslims do whenever they visit the graveyards



> Praise be to Allah
> Lord of the Worlds, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
> Master of the Day of Judgement!
> You alone we worship,
> and to You alone we look for help.
> Guide us to the straight path,
> The Path of those upon whom You bestowed favours,
> not those who have invited Your wrath, nor those who have gone astry.


----------



## Bang Galore

Asim Aquil said:


> The bravery of Mirwaiz is that he will goto Kolkata against all odds facing off another Hindu-right wing onslaught.
> 
> But this will continue now that more Hurriyat Leaders are joining in, sooner or later your goons would have to give in and let them speak.



Make up your mind. You can't argue that the Indian state is evil & then claim that Mirwaiz is brave when he travels under the protection of that very state. Mirwaiz' security, like that of all of Hurriat's leaders is the burden of the Indian state.

What's with the right wing Hindu stuff? Is Mirwaiz fighting against them or is his position against that of the Indian state. I actually don't mind him speaking. We know India better than you do. While there will be a lot of sympathy & understanding for his requests on reducing force levels, Kashmir's position within the Indian union is non negotiable. Flexibility can be shown as long as sovereignty is not on the table. Waste of time to think anything else.

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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> They are trying to kill someone, murderers should be killed.



What can I call this --- Exaggeration,Hyper-exaggeration...?? The Pandit brother just gave 3 slaps(grossly insufficient considering who is responsible for their miserable plight today) and here we are talking about attempted Murder.  



Asim Aquil said:


> Kashmiri protesters are protesting in disputed territory where fighting the Indian state and all its machinations is their right. Chandigarh and Kolkata are India and hence you will not see Kashmiri protesters fighting the Indian state there.



Correction --- Kashmiri Muslim stone pelters.When their violence is justified in the name of 'Right to Self Determination', then the violence of the Kashmiri Pandit Brothers too in their 'Right to Self Determination' is 110&#37; justified.

Yes they can come and protest in Kolkata or anywhere -- but I dont think they'll be going back.

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## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> They are trying to kill someone, murderers should be killed.
> 
> Kashmiri protesters are protesting in disputed territory where fighting the Indian state and all its machinations is their right. Chandigarh and Kolkata are India and hence you will not see Kashmiri protesters fighting the Indian state there.



Same way Kashmiri Pandit have every right to protest like those paid kashmiri protesters 

*Just imagine if pandit start to protest like srinagar so what will happen with farooq *


----------



## Awesome

DRDO said:


> Just answer simple question
> *
> You need some one else instruction to remember your love ones *


Why has New York erected a 911 monument? Why do they all congregate together on 9/11 around it?

Everyone has lost their loved ones to the same brutality and they are thus congregating together.

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## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> Depends, if you keep terming everything as protest, then you can get away with everything.
> 
> Also isn't protesting a right of the free human?
> 
> This is what they wanted to recite on the graves, as all Muslims do whenever they visit the graveyards



So you need crowd for pray........Well i dnt know that 



DRDO said:


> Just answer simple question
> *
> You need some one else instruction to remember your love ones *



BTW this question is still unanswered


----------



## Awesome

Fasih Khan said:


> *Asim Sahab, Good luck with your Arguments. Have you ever heared the Urdu saying ''Latoon kae Bhoot ...'' Don't waste your energies with meaningful arguments here, Sir with this lot. Kind Advice.*


On the contrary I believe, the Pakistani point of view should be put forward very aggressively but with civility and taking into consideration of all legalities involved. Always put your best foot forward, victory would automatically follow. Let Jinnah's example be your guide.


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## Awesome

DRDO said:


> Same way Kashmiri Pandit have every right to protest like those paid kashmiri protesters
> 
> *Just imagine if pandit start to protest like srinagar so what will happen with farooq *


Pandits have not been kept out of Kashmir, they can come back and will be welcomed.


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## LaBong

Where in Kolkata is it happening? I see no mention in Telegraph.


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## FreekiN

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> You can't be serious. Kashmir is India.
> 
> 
> P.S. At least as long as we believe so and are willing to kill or die for it, Kashmir IS an integral part of India.



Die for what? Your little vacation spot? What is the meaning of the average Indian to Kashmir anyways? Absolutely nothing. Hardly any religious or cultural ties and yet they still claim them as their own.


----------



## Awesome

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> You can't be serious. Kashmir is India.
> 
> 
> P.S. At least as long as we believe so and are willing to kill or die for it, Kashmir IS an integral part of India.


Your delusions cannot override the echoes of "Go India Go" in Kashmir.

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## CaptainJackSparrow

-------------------------


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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> Pandits have not been kept out of Kashmir, they can come back and will be welcomed.



------ and be made to live under Sharia and as easy target for 'freedom fighters' .No thanks.

the lumpen elements of the society,the so called 'freedom fighters' will all be removed and thats wen the Pandit brothers will go to their native land.

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## Awesome

DRDO said:


> So you need crowd for pray........Well i dnt know that
> 
> 
> 
> BTW this question is still unanswered


It is an absurd question, since its none of your business and not your right to ask how someone believes in God and wishes to remember their lost ones.

What in India you have to justify your personal beliefs?


----------



## CaptainJackSparrow

Asim Aquil said:


> Your delusions cannot override the echoes of "Go India Go" in Kashmir.



Theese echoes will stay in the valley and will slowly die out in the valley itself. 

People of the world have many more important things to worry about like economy etc. than hear about the echoes of a deluded few.


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## Awesome

FreekiN said:


> Die for what? Your little vacation spot? What is the meaning of the average Indian to Kashmir anyways? Absolutely nothing. Hardly any religious or cultural ties and yet they still claim them as their own.


You're underestimating their ego and how badly it would be hurt if Pakistan's point of view would be accepted on Kashmir.

Its not about retaining Kashmir, its about showing Pakistan down.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Asim Aquil said:


> You're underestimating their ego and how badly it would be hurt if Pakistan's point of view would be accepted on Kashmir...



Accepted by whom? The valley people?


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## KS

FreekiN said:


> Die for what? Your little vacation spot? *What is the meaning of the average Indian to Kashmir anyways? Absolutely nothing.*



I wonder who are you to decide on behalf of me ??




FreekiN said:


> Hardly any religious or cultural ties and yet they still claim them as their own.



Ignorance ! Two hint words --- Amarnath,VaishnoDevi.

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## Bang Galore

Asim Aquil said:


> They are trying to kill someone, murderers should be killed.



*For murderers to be called that, there has to be a murder in the first place.* Secondly, when you demand that they be killed, are you arguing for extra judicial measures, in which case you might find yourself at variance with one of your diktats *saying that no support for unlawful action will be tolerated.*


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## Awesome

Bang Galore said:


> *For murderers to be called that, there has to be a murder in the first place.* Secondly, when you demand that they be killed, are you arguing for extra judicial measures, in which case you might find yourself at variance with one of your diktats *saying that no support for unlawful action will be tolerated.*


If caught in the act of violence, they should be shot at. 

If the police is there for his protection how come it allowed people to attack him? He could've easily been killed, the police which had guns should have fired. In the entire world anyone caught trying to kill someone can be killed by security personnel to protect the would be victim. Obviously violence against Mirwaiz was allowed.


----------



## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> If caught in the act of violence, they should be shot at.
> 
> If the police is there for his protection how come it allowed people to attack him? He *could've* easily been killed, the police which had guns should have fired. In the entire world anyone *caught trying to kill someone can be killed* by security personnel to protect the would be victim. Obviously violence against Mirwaiz was allowed.



IPC doesnt allow the words of "could've,would've,maybe" etc.....It accepts words like "was,were" etc. 

Is this how the Pakistani Sec forces function ---- spot justice ??

Also tell me wat can we do with the Kashmiri Muslims who *"killed"* the Pandit brothers,sisters and made them refugees in their own country....Same Spot Justice ?


----------



## Awesome

Karthic Sri said:


> IPC doesnt allow the words of "could've,would've,maybe" etc.....It accepts words like "was,were" etc.
> 
> Is this how the Pakistani Sec forces function ---- spot justice ??
> 
> Also tell me wat can we do with the Kashmiri Muslims who *"killed"* the Pandit brothers,sisters and made them refugees in their own country....Same Spot Justice ?


You mean to say if I come to you with a gun with a police officer standing right next to you, he won't try to protect you? He won't act before I shoot you?

Attempted murder charges are there too you know?


----------



## CaptainJackSparrow

Asim Aquil said:


> If caught in the act of violence, they should be shot at.
> 
> If the police is there for his protection how come it allowed people to attack him? He could've easily been killed, the police which had guns should have fired. In the entire world anyone caught trying to kill someone can be killed by security personnel to protect the would be victim. Obviously violence against Mirwaiz was allowed.



Please do not ruin your reputation as an admin. Do you even know what you are talking about?

*Hamne toh Kasab ko bhi nahin maara tha jab woh Mumbai mein goliyan barsa raha tha!*


----------



## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> You mean to say if I come to you with a gun with a police officer standing right next to you, he won't try to protect you? He won't act before I shoot you?
> 
> Attempted murder charges are there too you know?



Yeah sure they are there --- But did the Pandit Brother come with a Gun in his hand for attempted murder charges to be invoked upon him---- I mean C'mon ??

He should be a Bruce Lee to kill Mirwaiz with his bare hands


----------



## CaptainJackSparrow

Asim Aquil said:


> You mean to say if I come to you *with a gun* with a police officer standing right next to you, he won't try to protect you? He won't act before I shoot you?
> 
> Attempted murder charges are there too you know?



*Gun?* Seriously Asim I don't think you really know what you are talking about.

Has your account got hacked or something?


----------



## Awesome

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Please do not ruin your reputation as an admin. Do you even know what you are talking about?
> 
> *Hamne toh Kasab ko bhi nahin maara tha jab woh Mumbai mein goliyan barsa raha tha!*


My reputation isn't of any of your concern, nor am I so desperate to seek anyone's approval.

You didn't kill Kasab, why did you kill everyone else? This argument is so stupid, you're defending the actions of violent criminals who attacked Mirwaiz. They were trying to kill him and use of lethal force was obviously justified against them.

Now if they do a repeat of this in Kolkata and the Indian police allows it, then the Indian state should be held accountable for not using all means necessary to prevent a crime.


----------



## Fasih Khan

Asim Aquil said:


> On the contrary I believe, the Pakistani point of view should be put forward very aggressively but with civility and taking into consideration of all legalities involved. Always put your best foot forward, victory would automatically follow. Let Jinnah's example be your guide.



*I Wish you Best of Luck Brother.*


----------



## third eye

Asim Aquil said:


> Pandits have not been kept out of Kashmir, they can come back and will be welcomed.



It is indeed strange to observe a Pakistani located outside the subcontinent speaking with such conviction on welcoming Pandits back in the valley.

With what authority is this being suggested ? They were removed from their home according to a pogrom .

Once again in India changes happen only by the ballot. Those who seek changes must contest the next elections.

Lastly, the Hurriyat leaders are pushing their luck.


----------



## Bang Galore

Asim Aquil said:


> *If caught in the act of violence, they should be shot at. *



Walked into that one, didn't you? You really need to be careful not to get carried away. The above could very easily be a reference point when we discuss stone pelting by mobs in Kashmir. They are armed with stones atleast while the guy attacking the Mirwaiz was using his fists. If you support Police shooting at the first sign of trouble, know that you will be called upon to be consistent. You can't pick & choose your preference of police actions based on specious grounds.

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## jayron

AstanoshKhan said:


> Yaaraane Jaha Kehte Hay Kashmir Hay Jannat,
> 
> *Jannat Kisi Kaafir Ko Mili Hay Na Milay Gi,*
> 
> "I Protest."



I am surprised religious fanatics like you still exist in this world. 

This could be a single reason why India should not give up Kashmir to show that we don't budge to religious fanatics.


----------



## Awesome

third eye said:


> It is indeed strange to observe a Pakistani located outside the subcontinent speaking with such conviction on welcoming Pandits back in the valley.
> 
> With what authority is this being suggested ? They were removed from their home according to a pogrom .
> 
> Once again in India changes happen only by the ballot. Those who seek changes must contest the next elections.
> 
> Lastly, the Hurriyat leaders are pushing their luck.


Actually India dropped the ball on that. J&K under India's forced rule allowed that to happen. Moreover its nothing new, religious based mass relocations happened all over India and Pakistan at times of strife. 

India could've prevented it by providing better security to the Pandits, but I doubt they would've stayed since at times of strife people will relocate to places where they would feel more welcomed.

If it was a Kashmiri free nation then you could blame the Kashmiris for what happened to the Pandits, but it was your rule, your control - hence your fault.


----------



## CaptainJackSparrow

Asim Aquil said:


> You didn't kill Kasab, why did you kill everyone else?



We tried our best to capture them alive. We were successful with Kasab.



Asim Aquil said:


> This argument is so stupid, you're defending the actions of violent criminals who attacked Mirwaiz. They were trying to kill him and use of lethal force was obviously justified against them. Now if they do a repeat of this in Kolkata and the Indian police allows it, then the Indian state should be held accountable for not using all means necessary to prevent a crime.



a. How can you conclude with such conviction that they were trying to kill him?

b. Let's not speculate about what will happen in Kolkata.


----------



## Awesome

Bang Galore said:


> Walked into that one, didn't you? You really need to be careful not to get carried away. The above could very easily be a reference point when we discuss stone pelting by mobs in Kashmir. They are armed with stones atleast while the guy attacking the Mirwaiz was using his fists. If you support Police shooting at the first sign of trouble, know that you will be called upon to be consistent. You can't pick & choose your preference of police actions based on specious grounds.


Again, Kashmir is disputed territory and hence it is the right of Kashmiris to attack the Indian soldiers. Chandigarh is not, and neither was he there waging war against India, and neither were the mob an Indian security force.

---------- Post added at 11:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 AM ----------




CaptainJackSparrow said:


> We tried our best to capture them alive. We were successful with Kasab.
> 
> 
> 
> a. How can you conclude with such conviction that they were trying to kill him?
> 
> b. Let's not speculate about what will happen in Kolkata.


They raised their hand on him, thats reason enough.


----------



## EjazR

Well finally the sepratists have realised that the resolution of the Kashmir issue lies with the Indian people. Its not with UN, not with EU, not with US and not with Pakistan either. Its about time the realisation has come. 

As far as I can tell, Mirwaiz was not physically assaulted but there was ruckus created. And about 20+ activists of the VHP have been arrested. It is unforutnate that they have indulged in assaulting the people there when they could have just protested non-violently to stress their point. After all Mirwaiz is not like Geelani and his own father was assasinated by LeT militants for starting a dialouge with India.

The bottom line is that Indians are more than willing to address every human rights issue and heavy handedness of any forces and to help Kashmiris get their due rights as per the Indian consitution. But when it comes to division of land on the basis of religion, there is no support for that.

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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> You didn't kill Kasab, why did you kill everyone else? This argument is so stupid, you're defending the actions of violent criminals who attacked Mirwaiz. They were trying to kill him and use of lethal force was obviously justified against them.



Again why are you still clutching at the straws --- Prove me that the Pandit brother came with a gun to kill Mirwaiz.Dont just trump up claims for te sake of arguing.

Again you are sidestepping the argument that if the wanton violence of the Valley Muslim stone pelters are justified so too is the action of the Kashmiri Pandit brothers.*You cant have two standards for the two people from the same 'disputed territory'*



Asim Aquil said:


> Now if they do a repeat of this in Kolkata and the Indian police allows it, then the Indian state should be held accountable for not using all means necessary to prevent a crime.



Now this is downright ludicurous ---- Why should Indian State be held accountable for the safety of a man who advocated breaking up of India (sedition) sitting squat in India itself. 



Asim Aquil said:


> Again, Kashmir is disputed territory and hence it is the right of Kashmiris to attack the Indian soldiers. Chandigarh is not, and neither was he there waging war against India, and neither were the mob an Indian security force.




And equally its the right of the Kashmiri Pandit brothers to protest in any way possible for the man who was responsible for their plight today ---- the tag of Kashmiri doesnt belong to the Valley Muslims alone

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## CaptainJackSparrow

Asim Aquil said:


> They raised their hand on him, thats reason enough.



What?  Raising one's hand on someone is a sign of attempt to murder?

Asim please! I beg of you. Don't do injustice to the reputation you have here. Seriously!


----------



## third eye

Asim Aquil said:


> Actually India dropped the ball on that. J&K under India's forced rule allowed that to happen. Moreover its nothing new, religious based mass relocations happened all over India and Pakistan at times of strife.
> 
> India could've prevented it by providing better security to the Pandits, but I doubt they would've stayed since at times of strife people will relocate to places where they would feel more welcomed.
> 
> If it was a Kashmiri free nation then you could blame the Kashmiris for what happened to the Pandits, but it was your rule, your control - *hence your fault*.



We are not discussing faults here. 

The point that caught my eye was the welcome being offered to Pandits .

Yes it is India's fault . The fault lies in going to the UN and accepting a cease fire in 48. The fault lies in not abrogating article 376 , the fault lies in molly cuddling those within who take advantage of the democratic system to suggest sedition.

But then, all these are our internal issues and shall be solved internally.


----------



## EjazR

*Indians have a stake in Kashmir: Mirwaiz - Hindustan Times*

A day after being physically assaulted in Chandigarh, an undeterred All Parties Hurriyat Conference chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has moved on to his next destination to "tell India about the idea behind Kashmir's struggle." "I guess mainstream India is not aware of the ground reality of Kashmir,
and the whole thing there was being seen through Pakistani prism. That's not the case. Why Kashmir is angry, there is very little or no understanding of it," The Mirwaiz told Hindustan Times on phone from Delhi on Friday.

" From our point of view, the people of India are stake holders in Kashmir as well. The public opinion would matter a lot in taking any decision on the resolution of Kashmir," he said as he underlined that "being pro-Kashmir doesn't mean being anti-India."

"We are trying to tell what our ideas are. What Kashmir struggle is and why it is important for the people to know about it," the Mirwaiz told HT even as he described Thursday's disruption of his function in Chandigarh as some thing "being part of politics."

*Mirwaiz, 37, who was the first to tell on the soil of Pakistan in 2007 that "Kashmir cannot afford to have more graveyards" and had sought dialogue as a way forward in his message to the militant outfits that the cult of violence no longer could deliver a solution to Kashmir crisis, said that his "idea is to tell what the idea of Kashmir is."*

*His observations about Kashmir were preceded by an attack on his house and followed by severe criticism by the militant outfits.*

He would be interacting with the people in New Delhi and Kolkota and also in Jammu.

"We have always believed in dialogue and this is our way of holding dialogue," he said and added, "The people of India must know that we have a problem and that needs a resolution".

The Mirwaiz is the face of dialogue in Kashmir vis-&#224;-vis New Delhi and Islamabad. He was the first one to lead delegation of the Hurriyat Conference for talks with the NDA government in 2004 and subsequently held talks with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in 2005 and 2006 and was also involved in a "quiet dialogue" with the Union Home Minister P Chidambaram in November-December 2009. He, however, said "no talks" with the Centre's three interlocutors.

On Thursday too he was optimistic that he would be able to have a "good interaction" with civil society in Chandigarh. And even after the incident, he did not blame any one for the disruption. "It happens, we got to take it in our stride as ours is a struggle that cannot be halted because of some incidents here and there."

---------------------------------------------------

Lets hope that Pakistanis realise that these so called Jihadi groups like LeT Hizb are unwelcome in India and they stop support of these outfits that have brought nothing but misery not only to the Kashmiris but to the Pakistanis themselves.


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## Awesome

Karthic Sri said:


> Again why are you still clutching at the straws --- Prove me that the Pandit brother came with a gun to kill Mirwaiz.Dont just trump up claims for te sake of arguing.


Fine if I go Punch the Indian PM I won't be shot at till I produce a gun?



> Again you are sidestepping the argument that if the wanton violence of the Valley Muslim stone pelters are justified so too is the action of the Kashmiri Pandit brothers.*You cant have two standards for the two people from the same 'disputed territory'*


Kashmiri Pandits are not part-taking the in dispute as officially recognized by the UN. They want to side with India go ahead, vote for India in the UN plebiscite. 

The violence of stone pelters is against illegal occupation of Kashmir by Indian forces. An act of force, an act of violence. May I also remind you that it was the senseless killing of a young boy in cold blood that caused the protests in the first place.



> Now this is downright ludicurous ---- Why should Indian State be held accountable for the safety of a man who advocated breaking up of India (sedition) sitting squat in India itself.


If you think its sedition take him to the courts, what in India there is no law? Lynch mob still decides the sentences to crimes?


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Asim Aquil said:


> Fine if I go Punch the Indian PM I won't be shot at till I produce a gun?



*Hey Ram!* 

I have no words now. I'm speechless.

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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> Fine if I go Punch the Indian PM I won't be shot at till I produce a gun?



No you wont be ! IPC applies equally to all.
And please dont compare Mirwaiz to MMS --- its downright insulting to that Sardar.



Asim Aquil said:


> Kashmiri Pandits are not part-taking the in dispute as officially recognized by the UN. They want to side with India go ahead, vote for India in the UN plebiscite.



Yes they are indeed siding with India and 'showing' it too. And please remind me when was the Kashmir issue last discussed in UN ?




Asim Aquil said:


> The violence of stone pelters is against illegal occupation of Kashmir by Indian forces. An act of force, an act of violence. May I also remind you that it was the senseless killing of a young boy in cold blood that caused the protests in the first place.



_The violence of the Kashmiri Pandit brothers was against the illegal ethinic cleansing from their home land that made them refugees in their own land._ May I also remind you of the acts of religious intolerance and the pogrom that followed resulting in the deaths of thousands of Pandit brothers,sisters,children in the 90s and making lakhs of them flee for their lives, that caused this incident in the first place.



Asim Aquil said:


> If you think its sedition take him to the courts, what in India there is no law? Lynch mob still decides the sentences to crimes?



This was a spontaneous provocation of Mirwaiz that resulted in this altercation --- It would be nice on his part to keep in mind Chandigarh or for that matter Kolkata is not Lal Chowk.


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## Ganga

Asim Aquil said:


> I*f caught in the act of violence, they should be shot at. *
> 
> If the police is there for his protection how come it allowed people to attack him? He could've easily been killed, the police which had guns should have fired. In the entire world anyone caught trying to kill someone can be killed by security personnel to protect the would be victim. Obviously violence against Mirwaiz was allowed.



Sorry but we are not China .We don't go around killing people.Police are trained not to fire at public places as it may result in innocent deaths.


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## Awesome

Delhi court to decide on sedition charge against Roy, Geelani

Once again India is trying to silence the voices of freedom. 

*Har ghar se mujahid niklay ga, tum kitne mujahid maaro ge*



> New Delhi, Nov.27: A Delhi metropolitan magistrates court is likely to decide Saturday whether criminal proceedings should initiated against hard line Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani and writer-activist Arundhati Roy on charges of sedition for their alleged anti-India statements.
> 
> Metropolitan Magistrate Navita Kumari Bagha, who pulled up the police for failing to submit proper status report on a complaint filed with them on October 28 by Sushil Pandit seeking registration of FIR against Roy and Geelani, reserved the order on the complaint filed with the court after hearing arguments of Pandit's counsel.
> 
> Besides Geelani and Roy, the complaint sought prosecution of five others, including Delhi University professor S A R Geelani, who was acquitted in Parliament attack case, and Sheikh Showkat Hussain, a professor of Jammu and Kashmir University.
> 
> According to the complaint, the accused made the comments at a convention in New Delhi in October on 'Azadi--The Only Way'. Hurriyat leader Geelani shared the dais with Roy and pro-Maoist leader Vara Vara Rao among others. The audience heckled Geelani

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## KS

I sincerely hope the Delhi court doesnt convict Suzanne Arundathi Roy !

No more free publicities please.

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## Hindustani

Let him say whatever the hell he wants to say. People (pakistanis) criticize India for not being democratic and secular.. when in fact this jackass roams around the country chanting anti India speeches. AND STILL the government provides him with security and the right to state whatever he wants. That to me is democratic enough


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## Infinite Sapience

Asim, do you recommend the same(to be shot) for the person who threw a shoe on Zardari? after all thats also violence.

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## CaptainJackSparrow

Infinite Sapience said:


> Asim, do you recommend the same(to be shot) for the person who threw a shoe on Zardari? after all thats also violence.



*All the persons who threw a shoe @ Bush, Zardai and Chidambaram were only arrested and let go. 

It can be argued that the shoes could have contained explosives and hence the guys must have been shot on site.

But that's not how mature people respond you know! It's very fancy to talk like this on an internet forum but in actual life, maturity matters!*

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## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> It is an absurd question, since its none of your business and not your right to ask how someone believes in God and wishes to remember their lost ones.
> 
> What in India you have to justify your personal beliefs?



Yes its not my business 

But it shows intention of Geelani ........what he want


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## Awesome

What about the intentions of all the people coming to the graveyard?

If everyone intends one and the same thing, then its only India's intentions that are malafide.


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## T-Faz

The more restrictions are in place, the more Kashmiris will be alienated and this cycle will continue for a long time till Pakistan reaches an admirable state (think Ayubs Pakistan). Pakistan is at this state not in a position to put through a mediated and recognised response. 

Ayubs mistake was that he went ahead with the 'war' plan rather than using a diplomatic stance to solve the Kashmir problem.

This use of force by India will have long term repercussions. Sure there might nit be much publicity for the Kashmir issue now but be assured, in the future things will change and the issue can become a much bigger problem.

It would be n the best interest of India to appease Kashmiris to the fullest extent they can. If they cannot, they will be stuck in tis quagmire for the foreseeable future.


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## Rumporum

Azad Kashmir said:


> I'm from Pakistani Kashmir, Azad Jammu and Kashmir. I view the current unrest as an ongoing struggle and rightful representations of Kashmiris' feelings towards India. My grandad for example, lived through Dogra times and hails the Pakistani Army as his saviors, whereas, he literally loaths the Indian Army for their brutal occupation and war with Kashmir and the Kashmiris. Kashmir was a soverign nation, due to some events, its soveriegnty was breached, for better or for worse, India is still responsible for caring for Kashmiri citizens in a humane way.
> 
> Let me give you an example, AJK has a part of Mangla Dam I believe within it, a lot of villages were displaced in the building of the dam. Pakistani irregulars invaded Kashmir first too. However, their is hardly any resistance to Pakistan in comparison to the one in IOK. Why? Because Pakistan has treated Kashmiris humanly and with respect to their deserved rights. Ofcourse, the large majority want an indepedent state of Kashmir, but are very proud of Pakistan and its' achievements. Pakistani independence day is celebrated and Dr. A. Q Khan is a hero. The level of co-operation and brotherhood is so deep due to the common enemy of both peoples, India. Kashmiris see Pakistanis as a brother fighting for their freedom, and as that, a natural ally.
> 
> I'll say it a thousand times, Kashmir is India's biggest blunder. The issue could have been resolved, but the Indian Forces acted in an inhumane way against the Kashmiri population, equalling an occupation. - There's a reason I call Pakistani Kashmir, Pakistan Held Kashmir and Indian Kashmir as Indian Occupied Kashmir.



I have asked this before however do you think something like an autonomous status can be given to Kashmir such as Faeroe islands or even better example like Åland Islands. So that basically the entire region of Kashmir is given autonomy on both sides Pak and India. Thus opening up the borders that exist internally.While each side responsible for defence, foreign affairs etc... 

Is something even thinkable with the people of Kashmir and bigger question among the peoples and Governments of India and Pakistan?


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## Icarus

Rumporum said:


> I have asked this before however do you think something like an autonomous status can be given to Kashmir such as Faeroe islands or even better example like &#197;land Islands. So that basically the entire region of Kashmir is given autonomy on both sides Pak and India. Thus opening up the borders that exist internally.While each side responsible for defence, foreign affairs etc...
> 
> Is something even thinkable with the people of Kashmir and bigger question among the peoples and Governments of India and Pakistan?



According to reports, an agreement to declare Kashmir as an autonomous region was in the works during Musharraf era in co-ordination with India but change in Govt stalled it and the mis-trust following 26/11 confined that plan to the shredder..........we had almost removed the biggest bone of contention from between us, but lost the opportunity to terrorists........

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## KS

Rumporum said:


> I have asked this before however do you think something like an autonomous status can be given to Kashmir such as Faeroe islands or even better example like &#197;land Islands. So that basically the entire region of Kashmir is given autonomy on both sides Pak and India. Thus opening up the borders that exist internally.While each side responsible for defence, foreign affairs etc...
> 
> Is something even thinkable with the people of Kashmir and bigger question among the peoples and Governments of India and Pakistan?



The people of India are receptive to the idea of a limited autonomy,but only *within the ambits of the Indian constitution* --- wherein India controls the defence,foreign affairs and currency and provided the autonomous state gives full protection to the Hindu,Sikh and the Buddhist minorities and does not impose Sharia.

Also the question of opening of the borders doesnt arise till the Militant training camps on the other side are permanently shut down and disabled.We dont want the militants to make use of the open border facilities.

Any other extra-constitutional solution is purely not acceptable and will not be discussed.




Kakgeta said:


> According to reports, an agreement to declare Kashmir as an autonomous region was in the works during Musharraf era in co-ordination with India but change in Govt stalled it and the mis-trust following 26/11 confined that plan to the shredder..........we had almost removed the biggest bone of contention from between us, but lost the opportunity to terrorist........



There are some vested interests who dont want to see this problem resolved and they are in both countries. And Im in no way hinting the usual suspects of CIA-MOSSAD.


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## Icarus

Karthic Sri said:


> The people of India are receptive to the idea of a limited autonomy,but only *within the ambits of the Indian constitution* --- wherein India controls the defence,foreign affairs and currency and provided the autonomous state gives full protection to the Hindu,Sikh and the Buddhist minorities and does not impose Sharia.
> 
> *Also the question of opening of the borders doesnt arise till the Militant training camps on the other side are permanently shut down and disabled.We dont want the militants to make use of the open border facilities.*
> 
> Any other extra-constitutional solution is purely not acceptable and will not be discussed.



Again with that govt BS, what evidence do you have to suggest that there are training camps in Azad Kashmir ? An Indian spy satellite circles over Pakistan once every 24 hours, with the capibility to zoom in on objects of interest to an accuracy of within *10 metres* yet you have no pictures to sustain your claim. Just a lot of finger pointing. Without pictorial or material evidence, you cannot assert any such allegation.........


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## Icarus

Karthic Sri said:


> There are some vested interests who dont want to see this problem resolved and they are in both countries. And Im in no way hinting the usual suspects of CIA-MOSSAD.



JeM, LeT, JuD ??????


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## KS

Kakgeta said:


> Again with that govt BS, what evidence do you have to suggest that there are training camps in Azad Kashmir ? An Indian spy satellite circles over Pakistan once every 24 hours, with the capibility to zoom in on objects of interest to an accuracy of within *10 metres* yet you have no pictures to sustain your claim. Just a lot of finger pointing. Without pictorial or material evidence, you cannot assert any such allegation.........



It doesnt need a 100 Mil $ satellite to discern what common sense can tell you.



Kakgeta said:


> JeM, LeT, JuD ??????



Definitely possible! It may also be some portions in the Army on either side who dont want a cut in their spendings.


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## Icarus

Karthic Sri said:


> It doesnt need a 100 Mil $ satellite to discern what common sense can tell you.
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely possible! It may also be some portions in the Army on either side who dont want a cut in their spendings.



Common sense tells most Pakistani members that the TTP are in some way associated with Indian presence in Afghanistan, then why do you complain about lack of evidence ? After all, that is what common sense tells us.............


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## Icarus

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> How's this for evidence?
> 
> YouTube - ********* (a.k.a Pakistan) terrorist interview
> 
> *Pardon me for the indecent video title but that is something beyond my control.*



Your telling me that Indian intel agencies are foolish enough to let press interview a detained border crosser indicted in a possible terrorism/espionage/spying charge ? That is against basic protocols.........


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## queerbaits

Kakgeta said:


> I'm not military, however the nature of my work keeps me with the military. So by that regard, yes I am still active.
> As for the ground situation: It was pretty bad at the time, people's livelihoods were destroyed, many had to migrate, people lost homes and relatives since the Indians made little distinction between civilian and military targets. For them, every building on our side of the border belonged to the enemy but we had to be very careful to avoid civilian casualties to avoid losing respect with the Kashmiris. There were quite a few assassination attempts on officers, especially the commandant. Usually IEDs and Anti-tank mines. We also caught Indian spies who came to set up the IEDs and for recon. Most of them are with the ISI others we turned into double agents and they subsequently settled in Pakistan. If you had anything particular you would like to ask, you are more than welcome.........




so from ur post i am to understand that indians attack civilians while pakistan are saints....indians infilitrate and pakistan are tha all whites.....what a impartial view!!!!


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## KS

Kakgeta said:


> Common sense tells most Pakistani members that the TTP are in some way associated with Indian presence in Afghanistan, then why do you complain about lack of evidence ? After all, that is what common sense tells us.............



Red Herring !

India does not have a common border with Afghanistan or FATA for us to send reinforcements for our TTP comrades lol And they themselves have on many occasion said if India were to fight Pakistan they would sacrifice their life for Pakistan.They are more like our Maoists and no I dont blame ISI for Maoism.

As for the Kashmir issue - pray tell me where these freedom fighters come from when they get hunted down near the LoC.Surely there is no other country bordering India there other than Pakistan !


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## Icarus

queerbaits said:


> so from ur post i am to understand that indians attack civilians while pakistan are saints....indians infilitrate and pakistan are tha all whites.....what a impartial view!!!!



No, he asked me how it was at my side, and I told him........
Here's about the other side as well.......
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/81849-real-life-hero-who-inspired-border.html#post1294929


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## Rumporum

So from the responses here that autonomy is probably the best option... What do the locals think of this and despite that after 26/11 the tensions increased are there any plans to restart the dialogue between Pak and India?

As what I see or in my opinion any solution to any conflict let alone Kashmir there must be a basic level or trust and understanding between two parties or at least a desire.. its after that can one come to the main issue. That's what probably is lacking between India and Pak and without that each side will accuse the other and as they say in Africa when two elephants fight the grass gets trampled in this case the locals/people of Kashmir


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## Icarus

Karthic Sri said:


> Red Herring !
> India does not have a common border with Afghanistan or FATA for us to send reinforcements for our TTP comrades lol And they themselves have on many occasion said if India were to fight Pakistan they would sacrifice their life for Pakistan.They are more like our Maoists and no I dont blame ISI for Maoism.



But India does maintain a significant presence in Afghanistan.......And they do have a military base in Tajikistan which is 2 kilometres from the Tajik-Afghan border.......They leased it in 2005 and the trouble in Pakistan began the very next year.......What does common sense say now ?



> As for the Kashmir issue - pray tell me where these freedom fighters come from when they get hunted down near the LoC.Surely there is no other country bordering India there other than Pakistan !



Ever give it a thought that they could be home grown ? BLA is home grown..........TTP is home grown(to some extent). Why can't the Kashmiri freedom fighters be home grown ?


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## KS

Kakgeta said:


> But India does maintain a significant presence in Afghanistan.......And they do have a military base in Tajikistan which is 2 kilometres from the Tajik-Afghan border.......They leased it in 2005 and the trouble in Pakistan began the very next year.......What does common sense say now ?



Cmon now you are starting to wildly speculate and give both a cause-effect relationship.And how do you think is militarily and logistically possible to support such a huge group (TTP) operating in almost the whole of FATA from just a single ,medium size airbase and that too far away from the Afghan-FATA border.

And it was only the leasing that took place in 2005 --- the renovation work was just finished.So it became operation just recently.



Kakgeta said:


> Ever give it a thought that they could be home grown ? BLA is home grown..........TTP is home grown(to some extent). Why can't the Kashmiri freedom fighters be home grown ?



Some of the militants are misguided Kashmiris and no one is denying that --- But what about the the rest,where do they get their training,what purpose they have across the border,where do they get that AKs,RPGs,grenades,mil grade SATCOM equipments etc.

Surely I guess you are not insinuating that the training camps are also inside the Indian borders only away from the eyes of the '0.7 million' Indian Army in Kashmir.

*BTW Breaking news just now on CNN-IBN* - Lashkar terror camps still active in Pakistan


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## KS

Breaking news coming on CNN-IBN that the Court has asked the police to formally register a FIR on Arundati and Geelani for sedition.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indian Govt has took the bait. 

Ms.Suzanne Arundati Roy,enjoy your moment under the sun.I guess this was what you wanted after all.


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## Spring Onion

hmmm Gilani is not Indian so how can India register a case against him. Anyway its nothing new for him to be in jail by Indian invaders.

And as far as Arundhati is concerned the world is alive to raise voice against this Indian tyranny against her


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## KS

Jana said:


> hmmm Gilani is not Indian so how can India register a case against him. Anyway its nothing new for him to be in jail by Indian invaders.
> 
> And as far as Arundhati is concerned the world is alive to raise voice against this Indian tyranny against her



Even going by your logic of Geelani not being from India (infact many suspect him of being from Pakistan) the fact that he gave his speech in India is reason enough to frame him and his cohort Arundathi.

But I dont like that because these lives depend on publicity and we should deny them that oxygen.


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## Infinite Sapience

Jana said:


> hmmm Gilani is not Indian so how can India register a case against him. Anyway its nothing new for him to be in jail by Indian invaders.
> 
> And as far as Arundhati is concerned the world is alive to raise voice against this Indian tyranny against her



Because case is being filed under Indian penal code(IPC) and not Jana fantasy code.

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## shineonyoucrazydiamond

Jana said:


> hmmm Gilani is not Indian so how can India register a case against him. Anyway its nothing new for him to be in jail by Indian invaders.
> 
> And as far as Arundhati is concerned the world is alive to raise voice against this Indian tyranny against her



Lol except Pakistan no one cares what India will do to her.. Come to her rescue if you have the guts..


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## JanjaWeed

Jana said:


> hmmm Gilani is not Indian so how can India register a case against him. Anyway its nothing new for him to be in jail by Indian invaders.
> 
> And as far as Arundhati is concerned the *world* is alive to raise voice against this Indian tyranny against her



jana.. 'world' doesn't begin & end with pakistan!!

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## CaptainJackSparrow




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## foxbat

Jana said:


> hmmm Gilani is not Indian so how can India register a case against him. Anyway its nothing new for him to be in jail by Indian invaders.
> 
> And as far as Arundhati is concerned the world is alive to raise voice against this Indian tyranny against her



Gilani holds an Indian papers and documents and Id cards I guess and thats why he was in Delhi without a Visa.

But even going by your arguement, if the crime is committed in India, it does not matter what the nationality of the accused is for registering an FIR..

Registering an FIR is not tyranny.. Assasinating a political leader who opposed military dictatorship in your country in a planned military offensive is..

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## Spring Onion

StreetHawk said:


> jana.. 'world' doesn't begin & end with pakistan!!



Surely we dint claim that unlike bharat. 

lets see what your decision can do to the lady. 

As far as Kashmir leader is concerned he had been under Indian brutality in his own country Kashmir all these decades so it doesnt matter if you put him once against in jail if this time in India


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Karthic Sri said:


> Indian Govt has took the bait.



a. It's the court, not the govt.

b. Relax! It's only an FIR. The Indian sarkari babus very well know how to stall a process. They would definitely not like to create a martyr of of her.


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## shineonyoucrazydiamond

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> a. It's the court, not the govt.
> 
> b. Relax! It's only an FIR. The Indian sarkari babus very well know how to stall a process. They would definitely not like to create a *martyr* of of her.



Martyr? She should be hanged in public, I believe in India and Indians and if we wish to live that way, she has no right to say whatever comes to her mind..


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## CaptainJackSparrow

shineonyoucrazydiamond said:


> Martyr? She should be hanged in public, I believe in India and Indians and if we wish to live that way, she has no right to say whatever comes to her mind..



Martyr in eyes of rest of the world.


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## shineonyoucrazydiamond

Jana said:


> *Surely we dint claim that unlike bharat.
> *
> lets see what your decision can do to the lady.
> 
> As far as Kashmir leader is concerned he had been under Indian brutality in his own country Kashmir all these decades so it doesnt matter if you put him once against in jail if this time in India



Twist and turn!! World is more bothered about Pakistan than India... So your claim is just a fallacy that world would come together to raise voice against a, a watever...


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## foxbat

shineonyoucrazydiamond said:


> Martyr? She should be hanged in public, I believe in India and Indians and if we wish to live that way, she has no right to say whatever comes to her mind..



No she shouldnt be.. I am as patriotic as the next guy, but the price of my freedom of speech is to defend her's. If she is guilty, she will be tried and convicted. If not, so be it. Its a trivial issue with no impact. We dont need to be so insecure about our country and its sovreignity that we jump whenever some Tom, Dick, or Arudhati utters some nonsense..

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## shineonyoucrazydiamond

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Martyr in eyes of rest of the world.



Only Pakistan, 

Let me tell you the world that exists... USA ISRAEL EUROPE RUSSIA CHINA - Major players.. No one gives a damn about her, ohh ya *Pakistan does but we don't give a damn about Pakistan..*


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## Spring Onion

shineonyoucrazydiamond said:


> Twist and turn!! World is more bothered about Pakistan than India... So your claim is just a fallacy that world would come together to raise voice against a, a watever...



 sure i dint mean that Pentagon will issue a statement.

She is considered to be a media person and a human rights activists and you know the world bodies.

Their statements do carry alot of weight


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## CaptainJackSparrow

shineonyoucrazydiamond said:


> She should be hanged in public,



I wouldn't make that mistake. It is best to ignore her.

In fact, if anything, the government must advise the media to not give too much coverage to her and her statements.

Haathi chale bazaar, kutte bhonke hazaar, ignore maar na yaar! 

Ignorance is a bliss.

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## CaptainJackSparrow

shineonyoucrazydiamond said:


> Only Pakistan,
> 
> Let me tell you the world that exists... USA ISRAEL EUROPE RUSSIA CHINA - Major players.. No one gives a damn about her, ohh ya *Pakistan does but we don't give a damn about Pakistan..*



Why take chances?

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## JanjaWeed

Jana said:


> Surely we dint claim that unlike bharat.
> 
> lets see what your decision can do to the lady.
> 
> As far as Kashmir leader is concerned he had been under Indian brutality in his own country Kashmir all these decades so it doesnt matter if you put him once against in jail if this time in India



if there is a case to answer, sure she will. don't worry.. she does have quite a few sympathisers within india. there will be a uproar if court goes out of it's way not to give her justice. 
as far as gilani is concerned, courts works under IPC in india or in indian administered kashmir. so you can't have a seperate court just for him!!


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## para-site

Comm'n u guys are taking her seriously........

on topic I dont hink it's gonna make any difference.......


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## shineonyoucrazydiamond

foxbat said:


> No she shouldnt be.. I am as patriotic as the next guy, but the price of my freedom of speech is to defend her's. If she is guilty, she will be tried and convicted. If not, so be it. Its a trivial issue with no impact. We dont need to be so insecure about our country and its sovreignity that we jump whenever some Tom, Dick, or Arudhati utters some nonsense..



Hi,

No, I am not insecure but a normal Indian citizen who is tired of listening to all this stupidity on daily basis.. Like me, there are many frustrated a$$es living around India...


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## shineonyoucrazydiamond

Jana said:


> sure i dint mean that Pentagon will issue a statement.
> 
> She is considered to be a media person and a human rights activists and you know the world bodies.
> 
> Their statements do carry alot of weight



Ya like the Kashmir issue carries a lot of weight and doesn't affect us an inch.. Media will fire and forget, she is not the first in the race.. Chasing a dream which is pretty much a dream and will die as one..


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## Infinite Sapience

shineonyoucrazydiamond said:


> Martyr?* She should be hanged in public*, I believe in India and Indians and if we wish to live that way, she has no right to say whatever comes to her mind..



No, thats not how one should treat a poor lady, out there to get some publicity at the cost of her country..free speech it is her right you know, but so is mine and every other Indian citizen's. 

Writers and media should get active and use the same freedom of speech given by Indian constitution to turn her publicity into notoriety...make a her an outcast using the same tools, which she wants to use against India.


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## KS

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> a. It's the court, not the govt.
> 
> b. Relax! It's only an FIR. The Indian sarkari babus very well know how to stall a process. They would definitely not like to create a martyr of of her.



Arey yaar you probably dont know about her --- See in another day or two a 20,000 word babble by her will come in the New York Times or the Washington Post or our very own Outlook on how she is being made to suffer by the Hindu,Corporate dominated India for speaking the truth.

Its not making a mountain out of a molehill --- this lady literally can make a mountain out of nothing and I dont want that.


----------



## Awesome

India will hang its award winning journalist, and then with the same mouth ask for a UNSC permanent seat?

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## sudhir007

freedom does not mean you have *BS* anything. Now they should only deserve one punishment to behind till death in publicly.

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## sensenreason

Kakgeta said:


> Your telling me that *Indian intel agencies *are *foolish enough *to let press interview a detained border crosser indicted in a possible terrorism/espionage/spying charge ? That is against basic protocols.........



Not sure about foolish but surely 'corrupt' and 'publicity hungry'


----------



## CaptainJackSparrow

Asim Aquil said:


> India will hang its award winning journalist, and then with the same mouth ask for a UNSC permanent seat?



Factually incorrect. The maximum punishment that can be awarded is life imprisonment.


----------



## shineonyoucrazydiamond

What freedom of speech are you guys talking about? Please read what freedom of speech indicates... 

She clearly abuses that right FYI....


----------



## LaBong

My stance is very clear in this issue. 

1. Freedom of Expression has to be guarded with utmost respect and care. 

2. Law of land must make it's own course without any meddling from political class.


----------



## foxbat

shineonyoucrazydiamond said:


> Hi,
> 
> No, I am not insecure but a normal Indian citizen who is tired of listening to all this stupidity on daily basis.. Like me, there are many frustrated a$$es living around India...



I know, and she is killing her own popularity by doing this.. Remember Medha Patkar.. When she bit off more that she could chew and tried to stall India's developmental projects just for the sake of it, how fast did her popularity fade away.. Ms Roy is going down the same road.. She underestimates the otherwise too busy trying to prosper Common Indian...

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## foxbat

Asim Aquil said:


> India will hang its award winning journalist, and then with the same mouth ask for a UNSC permanent seat?



Past awards in India dont gaurantee immunity from present of future crimes. Unfortunately thats how Indian constitution works..

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## para-site

Asim Aquil said:


> India will hang its *award winning journalist, *and then with the same mouth ask for a UNSC permanent seat?



Errrrrrrr........ one book wonder......

Trust me we will do both......is that morality the u are talking about...


----------



## Awesome

foxbat said:


> No she shouldnt be.. I am as patriotic as the next guy, but the price of my freedom of speech is to defend her's. If she is guilty, she will be tried and convicted. If not, so be it. Its a trivial issue with no impact. We dont need to be so insecure about our country and its sovreignity that we jump whenever some Tom, Dick, or Arudhati utters some nonsense..


But apparently through this directive of the court, its validates that you are.


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## para-site

Chill guys thread not worth replying to.....no use of mud throwing contest.....


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## Awesome

para-site said:


> Errrrrrrr........ one book wonder......
> 
> Trust me we will do both......is that morality the u are talking about...


One book wonder? Go read some more


----------



## foxbat

Asim Aquil said:


> India will hang its award winning journalist, and then with the same mouth ask for a *UNSC permanent seat*?




Asim

You are now going off topic. Where does UNSC come into this discussion. Then similar comments will flow and the topic gets shot to shreds.

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## LaBong

Asim Aquil said:


> One book wonder? Go read some more



which ones?


----------



## CaptainJackSparrow

Asim Aquil said:


> But apparently through this directive of the court, its validates that you are.



Just wait and watch dear. Nothing much is going to come out of it.

We Indian's and our babus are very very adept at stalling things lol.


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## foxbat

Asim Aquil said:


> But apparently through this directive of the court, its validates that you are.



How come.. A private citizen wants to lodge a police complaint and the police did not register that. The court has ordered to register a complaint. Arundhati Roy is not a special citizen that another citizen can not lodge a complaint against her. Penal court is more or less same in India and Pakistan. Expected Pakistani friends to be aware of what an FIR means..


----------



## hahahaha

Whoever banned me--- My ID was shineonyoucrazydiamond... I never used this ID as I saw suspended for few days and then I thought it is not ethical to use two IDs to post on a forum.. 

I am using it now.. I just want to share a message to the moderator and members here.. 

Please check my post on this forum, I never abused any of the Pakistani members, didn't abuse any religion, didn't abuse any country... Just showed my frustration that too against a lady who is an Indian.. I have all the right to do so, that too in very decent language.. If it was some other Indian leader I am sure I wouldn't have been banned.. Just because she's a sympathizer to those in Kashmir my posts were considered as crime.. 

I know I am going to get banned on this ID as well.. But do you think I really care.. Even if you block my IP i can send different address and log-in but is not worth it.. This forum has lost it all.. Just ban whoever wants to raise his voice.. 

Have a wonderful time all you guys.. God bless Pakistan, India.. 


b'bye

Shineonyoucrazydiamond..


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## Awesome

foxbat said:


> How come.. A private citizen wants to lodge a police complaint and the police did not register that. The court has ordered to register a complaint. Arundhati Roy is not a special citizen that another citizen can not lodge a complaint against her. Penal court is more or less same in India and Pakistan. Expected Pakistani friends to be aware of what an FIR means..


The court should have thrown it out, citing her right to free speech.


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## Awesome

Abir said:


> which ones?


Check out her latest work, "Listening to Grasshoppers, field notes on democracy"


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## Spring Onion

hahahaha said:


> *Whoever banned me--- My ID was shineonyoucrazydiamond... I never used this ID as I saw suspended for few days and then I thought it is not ethical to use two IDs to post on a forum.. *
> 
> I am using it now.. I just want to share a message to the moderator and members here..
> 
> Please check my post on this forum, I never abused any of the Pakistani members, didn't abuse any religion, didn't abuse any country... Just showed my frustration that too against a lady who is an Indian.. I have all the right to do so, that too in very decent language.. If it was some other Indian leader I am sure I wouldn't have been banned.. Just because she's a sympathizer to those in Kashmir my posts were considered as crime..
> 
> I know I am going to get banned on this ID as well.. But do you think I really care.. Even if you block my IP i can send different address and log-in but is not worth it.. This forum has lost it all.. Just ban whoever wants to raise his voice..
> 
> Have a wonderful time all you guys.. God bless Pakistan, India..
> 
> 
> b'bye
> 
> Shineonyoucrazydiamond..


 we know the patron . You guys post moderately with one Id and post BS personal attacks and rants and abuses with other IDs.


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## foxbat

Asim Aquil said:


> The court should have thrown it out, citing her right to free speech.



Thrown what out?? There has to be an FIR (First Information report) for the court to decide on whether a crime is committed or not.. The direction is to register an FIR and investigate if there was a crime. 

And so far investigating whether a crime is committed or not is not a human right violation (sic) in any part of the world I know of. You may comment about Pakistan...

But I guess you already know that


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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> The court should have thrown it out, citing her right to free speech.



In that case then the court will be depriving another Indian citizen his constitutionally granted right to file FIRs and the Right to protest through Legal means. !

Surely Suzanne Arundati Roy is not some holy cow for the court to protect her right at the cost of another indian's right.


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## LaBong

Asim Aquil said:


> Check out her latest work, "Listening to Grasshoppers, field notes on democracy"



That's more like collection of essays. Not a book by any stretch!


----------



## Pagla Dashu

para-site said:


> Errrrrrrr........ one book wonder.....


More accurate would be one novel wonder. She has written several books, if you can call printing of newspaper columns in a book form as 'writing' a book.


----------



## Pagla Dashu

Asim Aquil said:


> The court should have thrown it out, citing her right to free speech.


'Right to free speech' is limited by the law of land, e.g you can't libel in the name of free speech or deliver hate speech. If what she has said does indeed fall under the definition of sedition, then she has broken the law of land. 

The Court is very much entitled to examine her case.


----------



## Kashmiri Nationalist

Yeah, a pretty cool guy. I've been following for a few weeks now. 

You can listen/download all his songs here. If you check the Srinagar charts, there's about 3 more rappers.

This is "I Protest", one of his more popular songs.


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## foxbat

^ can you repost the link.. doesnt work


----------



## Kashmiri Nationalist

Rumporum said:


> I have asked this before however do you think something like an autonomous status can be given to Kashmir such as Faeroe islands or even better example like Åland Islands. So that basically the entire region of Kashmir is given autonomy on both sides Pak and India. Thus opening up the borders that exist internally.While each side responsible for defence, foreign affairs etc...
> 
> Is something even thinkable with the people of Kashmir and bigger question among the peoples and Governments of India and Pakistan?



An autonomous state would not be viable, as both sides would interfere in the affairs of Kashmir. The issue for an indepedent state of Kashmir would still remain.


----------



## airuah

Jana said:


> hmmm Gilani is not Indian so how can India register a case against him. Anyway its nothing new for him to be in jail by Indian invaders.
> 
> And as far as Arundhati is concerned the world is alive to raise voice against this Indian tyranny against her



well then what is gilani doing in India without a visa?an as such what would you doto a foreigner who involves in anti national activities...that gives enough reason for his arrest.......

if its the other way around...then he has an indian passport...ant thus enough reason to arrest on charges as stated by court.....


----------



## ARCHON

Nice song.. hope he goes big in bollywood next.


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## Screambowl

we will handle all momentum


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## FreekiN

Karthic Sri said:


> I wonder who are you to decide on behalf of me ??



Yeah, what do you have in common with me? A Kashmiri?






> Ignorance ! Two hint words --- Amarnath,VaishnoDevi.



There are shrines in Pakistan also. You are free to visit.


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## LaBong

FreekiN said:


> Yeah, what do you have in common with me? A Kashmiri?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are shrines in Pakistan also. You are free to visit.



Dude Kashmir have thousands years of cultural ties with India. Just read more about Rajtarangini by Kalhana. 

Rajatarangini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Screambowl

well if any one here is an animator or graphic designer i request him to answer these people!


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## Whiplash

@Asim: And this was worth banning so many members over? And suspending so many seniors? Including BENNY? I know you wouldn't have done the same if they'd said 'good riddance' over the dead balochi leader Akbar Bugti or Habib Baloch. 
Oh and try not banning me over pointing that out.


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## KS

ARCHON said:


> Nice song.. hope he goes big in bollywood next.



Classic.


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## Ammyy

ARCHON said:


> Nice song.. hope he goes big in bollywood next.



No buddy they made that songs mainly for Pakistani market 
Hope they can sale record no. of copies

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## Whiplash

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Who captured Hyderabad and junagarh not to forget other small princely states tht wanted to stay seperate?



I've spent a long time living in Hyderabad.
I dare you to find ONE SINGLE PERSON who says "We want to be a part of nizam empire and not India"

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## KS

FreekiN said:


> Yeah, what do you have in common with me? A Kashmiri?



You said "What is a common Indian's interest in Kashmir - nothing" ...I am a common Indian. And again who are you to decide that I dont have any interest in Kashmir. ?




FreekiN said:


> There are shrines in Pakistan also. You are free to visit.



Stay on topic -- I just answered your illogical,ridiculous assertion of Kashmir having no religious links with India.Hinduism was there in Kashmir long before a religion called Islam appeared in the deserts of Arabia.

BTW - do you know the etymology of the word 'Kashmir' ?

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## Ammyy

AstanoshKhan said:


>



Is their any voting system for this ???? Otherwise how can we findout how many people support this


----------



## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> There were also VHP hooligans there.



There is no rule that states Kashmiri Pandits should not be members of the VHP.....Or is there any ?




Asim Aquil said:


> So it was a coordinated attack, *never mind *that no matter what happened 30 years ago, an attack on Mirwaiz is and always will be illegal.



Never mind killing thousands of Pandits just because they are not Muslims,never mind raping Pandit sisters ---after all they are infidels,never mind appropriating their property --- who are they to own property in Islamic Caliphate of Kashmir , never mind half a million of them living as refugees away from their home,never mind anything ---- but one separatist who makes anti-Indian speech and that too in India should not be harmed. Wah !!!! 

These kind of posts just do the wonderful job of polarising the average Indian and makes them more indifferent to the Muslim from the Valley.

Think before typing these kind of posts because you are not doing them any service ---rather a great disservice.

*PS:*I seriously hope he doesnt speak any foolish rhetoric wherever he goes --- Most Indians will not just slap .


----------



## Whiplash

DRDO said:


> Is their any voting system for this ???? Otherwise how can we findout how many people support this



Oh there is my friend. It's called the indian democracy. Considering leaders form the majority vote, and we've never seen any kashmiri CM/MP bring the issue up.. I conclude that seperatists form the MINORITY.


----------



## rohailmalhi

YouTube - I PROTEST by MC Kash [HD 720p]
Here is the link to the song..............

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## riju78

nice rap

now please enjoy this too..
YouTube - mera kashmir

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## S_O_C_O_M

*Indias terrorists​*
Published: November 27, 2010

The attack on Kashmiri leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq by activists of the Rashtriya Savak Sangh (RSS) at Chandigarh on Thursday should jolt the powerful countries of the world into realising that behind the façade of democracy in India, there lie the dark forces of terrorism and extremism to promote its narrow-minded designs. Evidence of violence against the harmless right of dissent, let alone racial and religious differentiation and legitimate movements for freedom, is available aplenty in the every day life of Indian citizens. 

Since there is no check on either the propagation of the militant philosophy of outfits like the RSS and Bajrang Dal, or practical demonstration of it in society, it is difficult to question the view that they are officially patronised. Otherwise, the authorities would have provided the Mirwaiz and his colleague Bilal Lone with enough security cover to prevent any physical harm reaching them. 

Indian media reports indicate that the moment Mirwaiz Umar Farooq began speaking at a seminar on Kashmir and Indo-Pakistan relations, hoodlums of the RSS ascended the rostrum, caused physical injuries to him and tried to pull his hair. 

This, by no means, is not the only incident that proves the point of the existence of terrorist forces in India. Human rights activist and noted writer Arundhati Roy, who espouses the cause of the downtrodden and the oppressed and has spoken more than once in favour of the right to self-determination of the Kashmiris to put an end to the age-old hostility between the two neighbours, was also manhandled. And the most committed Kashmiri leader, Syed Ali Geelani, met the same fate some time back. 

Indias terrorists | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

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## Ammyy

If just 2-3 slap can make any one terrorist 

So dnt know what i am ?????

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## Ammyy

riju78 said:


> nice rap
> 
> now please enjoy this too..
> YouTube - mera kashmir



really nice song buddy


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## Mirza Jatt

lol..yes terrorist kashmiri Pandits..whose house were burnt and were driven out of their own home.

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## jayron

Some of these Pakistani posters will get more respect when they come out of their notion that all muslims are angels and non-muslims are their enemies. There is no middle ground what so ever.


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## jayron

DRDO said:


> If just 2-3 slap can make any one terrorist
> 
> So dnt know what i am ?????



 Indian terrorists have pretty low standards. They should learn from their Pakistani counterparts.

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## Spring Onion

DRDO said:


> If just 2-3 slap can make any one terrorist
> 
> So dnt know what i am ?????



RSS and groupies have a long list at their credit including killing Gandhi.

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## Mirza Jatt

Jana said:


> RSS and groupies have a long list at their credit including killing Gandhi.



but less than the groups under pakistan's shelter.

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## KS

Jana said:


> RSS and groupies have a long list at their credit including killing Gandhi.



So your point is ?

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## Ammyy

S_O_C_O_M said:


> The attack on Kashmiri leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq by activists of the Rashtriya Savak Sangh (RSS) at Chandigarh on Thursday should jolt the powerful countries of the world into realising that behind the fa&#231;ade of democracy in India,





Jana said:


> RSS and groupies have a long list at their credit including killing Gandhi.



If you want to talk about history so just tell me (i think you know your history)

Otherwise read the thread and lines which was quoted above.

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## riju78

Jana said:


> RSS and groupies have a long list at their credit including killing Gandhi.



let us just say they killed gandhi in 1947...in the 63 years after that what r their achievements in terrorism.. apart from ur usual rants on , babri gujarat and orissa (1992, 2002 and 2007)


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## KS

riju78 said:


> let us just say they killed gandhi in 1947...in the 63 years after that what r their achievements in terrorism.. apart from ur usual rants on , *babri gujarat and orissa *(1992, 2002 and 2007)



Correction - they are outbursts of emotion among the locals due to burning of 58 Karsevaks and killing of Swami Lakhsmanada respectively.

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## somebozo

i would dub them peaceful terrorist in this case..imagine if they resorted to use of sucide belts, jackets or explosive laden vehicles..?? Just like their brothers across the border aka TTP???

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## riju78

Karthic Sri said:


> Correction - they are outbursts of emotion among the locals due to burning of 58 Karsevaks and killing of Swami Lakhsmanada respectively.



i never meant RSS was behind the three incidents..like i said she usually rants abt those three to highlight ''saffron terrorism''

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## foxbat

somebozo said:


> i would dub them peaceful terrorist in this case..imagine if they resorted to use of sucide belts, jackets or explosive laden vehicles..?? *Just like their brothers across the border aka TTP???*



Most Indians of this generations dont treat Pakistanis as brothers. Certainly not of the TTP variety..

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## Ammyy

somebozo said:


> i would dub them *peaceful terrorist* in this case..imagine if they resorted to use of sucide belts, jackets or explosive laden vehicles..?? Just like their brothers across the border aka TTP???





*If you slap any one so its peaceful terrorist 

I think almost all teachers in the whole world came in this category 
to kyo na unhe jail bhej dena chahiye * 

I think you need a tight sleep

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## somebozo

foxbat said:


> Most Indians of this generations dont treat Pakistanis as brothers. Certainly not of the TTP variety..




i was linking the rss to ttp!


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## KS

somebozo said:


> i was linking the rss to ttp!



You definitely need some sleep.

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## riju78

somebozo said:


> i would dub them peaceful terrorist in this case..imagine if they resorted to use of sucide belts, jackets or explosive laden vehicles..?? Just like their brothers across the border aka TTP???



wouldnt an average pakistani citizen love to see the terrorists roaming around blowing up people become ur so called peaceful terrorists?? i mean a terrorist giving a few slaps is always better than blowing u up..

---------- Post added at 06:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:47 PM ----------




somebozo said:


> i was linking the rss to ttp!



u need to learn abt RSS then!

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## riju78

DRDO said:


> really nice song buddy



from the malayalam film keertichakra sung by kailash kher, music joshua sreedhar


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

I protest...!

YouTube - I PROTEST by MC Kash [HD 720p]


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Meray Watan Teri jannat me ai ge aik din

YouTube - Mere Watan Teri Jannat Main Ayain gy aik Din (Karyoo manz jigrus Jaes Chemno) New Version


----------



## Subramanian

Jana said:


> RSS and groupies have a long list at their credit including killing Gandhi.



Yeah,they had balls to nail the big one unlike quaid-e-azam who was giving orders to slaughter innocents in kolkata while munching his roasted pork.

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## Whiplash

Subramanian said:


> Yeah,they had balls to nail the big one unlike quaid-e-azam who was giving orders to slaughter innocents in kolkata while munching his roasted pork.



DUDE! UNCALLED FOR!!
Delete it right now. Stop making Indians look like savage retards

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## JanjaWeed

wow.. you guys don't let any chance go by when it comes to sexing up a little incident of hackling by a moron!! shows how desperate, frustrated & helpless some of you guys feel in pakistan... giving the name of terrorism to this incident is beyond belief. 
lot of leaders gets hackled in public. zardari was hackled in birmingham, so was umar abdullah, so was george bush in iraq.. by your logic all those guys hackled them fall under the category of terrorists. can someone here be kind enough to let me know which terrorist organisation these guys belonged to??


----------



## justanobserver

I had posted this article some time back, but it got deleted with the following reason

"_Reason: keep these concocted stories with trashy headlines out of here. and use a source worth 2 paisas next time._"

I agree the headline was quite provocative, but the source is very credible. The Telegraph is a reputed newspaper on par with The Hindu.

This time I've also not kept the same provocative headline as the thread title.

Members can thrown more light on this particular statement:


> *
> "In 2008, in an effort to streamline the work of the UN and to make the Security Council more effective, it was decided that items &#8220;which have not been considered by the Council at a formal meeting during the (previous) three-year period&#8221; would be completely removed from its purview."
> *



If the source is not credible, senior members can surely find the same info in UN's offcial website ?



Here's the original article:
---------------------------------------------------------


> *Old India itch gives Pak a red face in UN*
> 
> K.P. NAYAR
> 
> New York, Nov. 22: A politically correct effort by the United Nations to mollify Islamabad for what its top diplomat here peevishly described as an &#8220;inadvertent&#8221; omission of Kashmir from the annual report of the Security Council has, in fact, made Pakistan the laughing stock in the world body.
> 
> The conciliatory gesture by Farhan Haq, acting deputy spokesperson for the UN secretary-general last week has, instead, drawn attention to documents revealing that Pakistan has surreptitiously kept &#8220;alive&#8221; at the UN Hyderabad&#8217;s merger with India and the secession of East Pakistan to form Bangladesh.
> 
> An Arab diplomat at the UN, who would normally have been sympathetic to Islamabad exclaimed that &#8220;not many people even in Pakistan any longer remember that there was once a dispute between newly-independent India and Pakistan over how Hyderabad became a part of India.&#8221;
> 
> Reflecting a popular view among the UN&#8217;s membership, he regretted that Pakistan has now been caught misusing the outdated and obsolete procedures at the UN to keep alive its obsession with India and in the process weaken the credibility of the UN as a body which ought to be dealing with genuine, current threats to peace instead of a single country&#8217;s hobby horses.
> 
> The unexpected and rapid turn of events here stemmed from a complaint by Pakistan&#8217;s acting permanent representative to the UN, Amjad Hussain Sial, in the General Assembly a fortnight ago that &#8220;an inadvertent omission&#8221; in the annual report of the Security Council had left out Kashmir as &#8220;one of the oldest disputes on agenda of the Security Council.&#8221;
> 
> Responding to a predictable uproar in Pakistan that Kashmir is no longer on the Council&#8217;s agenda, Haq told reporters that the Indo- Pakistan dispute, &#8220;by a decision of the Council, remains on the list for this year&#8221; of issues which have not been eliminated altogether from its purview.
> 
> But Haq&#8217;s helpful gesture towards Pakistan has actually opened a Pandora&#8217;s Box for Asif Ali Zardari&#8217;s fragile government in Islamabad, whose diplomats are now scurrying to overcome the embarrassment caused for them at the UN from a logical fallout of Haq&#8217;s clarification.
> 
> Haq quoted from Security Council documents to bolster a firm assertion by Pakistan&#8217;s permanent representative to the UN here, Abdullah Hussain Haroon that &#8220;the (current) president of the Security Council... the UK, is amply clear on the subject and is cognisant of the matter.&#8221;
> 
> Haroon, who is under severe criticism from hardliners in Pakistan for his civility and a working relationship in dealings with the Indian mission to the UN, issued an urgent appeal from Karachi to &#8220;all concerned not to speculate unnecessarily upon the subject&#8221; in an effort to quell the uproar.
> 
> But matters are only likely to get worse for Haroon and his foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi on this issue because the documents quoted by the UN spokesperson reveal that the last time the Security Council took Kashmir into account in any of its deliberations was in November 1965.
> 
> The document, an annual &#8220;statement by the secretary-general on matters of which the Security Council is seized and on the stage reached in their consideration&#8221;, has two parts.
> 
> The first part is commonly known as the &#8220;seizure list&#8221; because it lists items, which the Security Council has been seized of at some point in the last three years. *That active list of the Council&#8217;s agenda does not mention Jammu and Kashmir even by implication.*
> 
> An Indian diplomat here joked that he was not surprised that this year&#8217;s &#8220;seizure list&#8221; is causing seizures in Pakistan because it is clear that the UN is no longer seized of the Kashmir issue. No country other than Pakistan is interested in it and even Islamabad has been unable to raise it in the Security Council.
> 
> A second part of the document &#8220;sets out those items which were identified in the summary statement for 2009 as matters of which the Security Council was seized and which have not been considered by the Council at a formal meeting during the (last) three-year period.&#8221;
> 
> It explains that &#8220;the list indicates the date on which each item was first taken up by the Council at a formal meeting, and the date of the most recent formal Council meeting held on that item.&#8221;*
> 
> It amply makes clear that &#8220;the India-Pakistan question&#8221; &#8212; since Kashmir in not mentioned by name even here &#8212; was first brought before the Council in January 1948 and has not figured on the Security Council&#8217;s active agenda since November 1965.*
> 
> Pakistan&#8217;s desperation to somehow bring Kashmir back on the UN&#8217;s agenda is, therefore, understandable since it is an issue that every other country considers as a dead letter.*
> 
> In 2008, in an effort to streamline the work of the UN and to make the Security Council more effective, it was decided that items &#8220;which have not been considered by the Council at a formal meeting during the (previous) three-year period&#8221; would be completely removed from its purview.
> *
> Accordingly, at the beginning of this year, secretary-general Ban Ki-moon sent out a circular which mentioned Jammu and Kashmir among the items due for such deletion unless at least one UN member requested otherwise by February 28.
> 
> On January 7, Pakistan&#8217;s permanent representative shot off a letter to the secretary-general and the president of the Security Council demanding that the so-called India-Pakistan question be retained for another year. No other country was interested in such retention.
> 
> Haroon&#8217;s letter also demanded that the dispute over Hyderabad and the situation in the Indian sub-continent in 1971 should remain under the purview of the Council.
> 
> By stating the legalistic position on Kashmir, Haq may have hoped to give Pakistani diplomats here some room for manoeuvre. But what it has achieved is to expose the severe limits of Pakistan&#8217;s diplomacy at the UN and to highlight the anachronism of its unforgiving antagonism to India even on matters which the rest of the world considers as settled.
> 
> The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | Old India itch gives Pak a red face in UN

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## justanobserver

The wording of the article is quite provocative, I advice fellow PDF members to concentrate on the highlighted lines and ignore the chest thumping


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## somebozo

let us divide kashmir and be happy over it..if we can divide traditional pushtoon lands between afghanistan and pakistan then why not kashmir between india and pakistan..

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## sameer-abc

As India&#180;s economic-military clout is growing within and without UNO, Kashmir issue is dead as Dodo...


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## justanobserver

^
Arrey bhai, please concentrate on the highlighted lines. Emotions ko control karo


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## foxbat

Check this out too. A view from Kashmir on the whole UN agenda..

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...ute-remains-our-agenda-uno-5.html#post1293447


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## justanobserver

foxbat said:


> Check this out too. A view from Kashmir on the whole UN agenda..
> 
> Kashmir dispute remains on our agenda: UNO



Interesting, some tidbits



> In August 1996 UN Security Council under rule 11 of the provisional rules of procedure decided that as of &#8220;September 15, 1996 matters which have not been considered by the Council in the preceding five years will be automatically deleted from the list of matters of which the Council is seized&#8221;. As a result the matters which were included in the summary statement of the Secretary General for deletion attracted the India&#8211;Pakistan question (Kashmir) as well. It was found that Kashmir was last discussed on November 5, 1965 and had not been discussed for 30 years and 11 months. It was deleted and lost its regularity on the UN SC agenda which it had continued to occupy for 48 years from January 1948 to August 1996.





> "*Author is London based Secretary General of JKCHR &#8211; NGO in Special Consultative Status with the United Nations and can be mailed*"



_Will bump the thread tomorrow as people are sleeping now_


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## WAR-rior

cmon guyz.....thats not done......pakistanis are so much adamant to get off da hook that they need reasons to so called prove that only they are not da terrorists as called by west.....this is somehow to justify pakistani backed activities in kashmir.

so much for da effort.......

again, some pakistani bro plz define terrorism......i dont want to call my mom a terrorist coz she once used to thrash me like bamboo when i use to harras her.


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## Awesome

Mirwaiz Bilal reach Kolkata Lastupdate:- Sun, 28 Nov 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com



> Srinagar, Nov 27: The Chairman of Hurriyat Conference (M) Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Bilal Gani Lone on Saturday arrived in Kolkata to participate in 2-day conference on Kashmir issue.
> 
> Mirwaiz, accompanied by Lone flew from New Delhi to Kolkata, to participate in the roundtable conference &#8220;Kashmir a way forward &#8221; organized by Centre for Peace and Progress at auditorium of Academy of Fine Arts in West Bengal Capital from Sunday.
> 
> &#8220;We are planning to meet journalists, academicians, political leaders and Muslim leaders during our stay in this state to mobilize public opinion in favour of Kashmir resolution,&#8221; Mirwaiz told Greater Kashmir over phone.
> 
> Pertinently, the Centre for Peace and Progress led by O P Shah had been organizing seminars on Kashmir issue for past one decade and it was first the NGO that brought separatists and mainstream leaders on a single stage during a seminar in Srinagar.



The Hurriyat has arrived!


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## Awesome

Now its all legal if they go and mob anyone in India


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## Subramanian

Whiplash said:


> DUDE! UNCALLED FOR!!
> Delete it right now. Stop making Indians look like savage retards



dude,RSS is the moral fabric of India.I think most of you here know about it only from the pseudo secular media which tries to portray it as a demon as it seeks to unite Indians.

It was the only organization physically involved in safely rescuing the people migrating from western punjab to eastern punjab and also running refugee camps in delhi to help the lost people get back to their families.

check out this and then talk to me

Direct Action Day - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> Now its all legal if they go and mob anyone in India



I wish you can say same thing in case of Kashmiri pandits also...


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## pmukherjee

Subramanian said:


> Yeah,they had balls to nail the big one unlike quaid-e-azam who was giving orders to slaughter innocents in kolkata while munching his roasted pork.



Not in good taste friend. Does not contribute positively to the debate in any way.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

*Not an inch of Kashmir will be given to separatists: Farooq​*
Union minister Farooq Abdullah on Saturday said separatists would not get "an inch" of Kashmir and asked foreign ambassadors who visited the state to also undertake a trip to Pakistan occupied Kashmir. "Not a single person in India will give an inch of Kashmir to them," Abdullah, also
former chief minister of Jammu and Kashmir, said during a debate here on 'Civil Society is also responsible for the emergence of terrorism in India.'

Pointing out that ambassadors from a number of foreign countries visited Kashmir, he said, "how many of them visit Azad Kashmir? Is India to be put on the road and be beaten?"

Stating that there were pockets of civil society overtly or covertly supporting terrorism, he said that the youth who pelted stones at security forces in Kashmir valley had been paid to do so.

"We have to win them over with development, democracy and empowerment," the National Conference leader said.

Advocating anti-terror laws like POTA, Abdullah said such laws were the only tools in fighting terrorists.

"During my chief ministership, I implemented POTA going against my cabinet as it was the only option in fighting terror. But during the elections, the Opposition brought this up against me. But they did not realise that I did it in the interest of the nation," he said.

He said laws like AFSPA had resulted in excesses in the valley, but added that he was not in favour of withdrawing it. "Let AFSPA stay, but let there also be justice."

Not an inch of Kashmir will be given to separatists: Farooq - Hindustan Times

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## Awesome

What's new? As if they were about to give Kashmir. Dialogue baazi.


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## Ammyy

*I am always like Farooq Abdullah and his policies but his son ******


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## TechLahore

I think the separatists have taken the tact they have because they realize nothing is going to be "given" to them. They are thus in the business of fighting and taking what they believe is theirs. Sad state of affairs that can only be resolved if India and Pakistan pursue a mutually acceptable settlement that keeps the aspirations of the Kashmiris in mind.

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## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> What's new? As if they were about to give Kashmir. Dialogue baazi.



Yes its Dialogue bazzi 

But atleast he talking about peace and development not like geelani who always distract people and youngsters

Don't send kids to school, Geelani tells Kashmiris - Rediff.com India News

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## ps80

Asim Aquil said:


> What's new? As if they were about to give Kashmir. *Dialogue baazi*.



*Dialogue baazi* 

This is not a one-sided phenomenon. I think that is what India and Pakistan mostly do regarding the Kashmir issue. Our political leaders are quite used to it.

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## foxbat

DRDO said:


> *I am always like Farooq Abdullah and his policies but his son ******



His son is very good.. But a little wet behind the ears..Did you hear his speech in the parliament on theNuclear bill vote..??


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## Infinity

Subramanian said:


> Yeah,they had balls to nail the big one unlike quaid-e-azam who was giving orders to slaughter innocents in kolkata while munching his roasted pork.



This is the True colour of RSS and supporters of RSS.

I find a lot of supporters of RSS on PDF .
RSS get more support on PDF than in India


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## foxbat

Asim Aquil said:


> *What's new? As if they were about to give Kashmir*. Dialogue baazi.



He is just making sure people across the border dont have any doubts.. 


Unfortunately this statements (from both sides) only increase the entry barriers for any solution..


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## Awesome

DRDO said:


> Yes its Dialogue bazzi
> 
> But atleast he talking about peace and development not like geelani who always distract people and youngsters
> 
> Don't send kids to school, Geelani tells Kashmiris - Rediff.com India News


Actually these type of dialogs are encouraging, it means whatever the separatists are doing is making them buckle and lash out.


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## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> Actually these type of dialogs are encouraging, it means whatever the separatists are doing is making them buckle and lash out.



you really thought that 

Well if this type of dialogs can make separatist happy so i wish Farooq Abdullah daily give statement like this

So we can save life of innocent Kashmirs and youngsters


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## foxbat

Asim Aquil said:


> Actually these type of dialogs are encouraging, it means whatever the separatists are doing is making them buckle and lash out.



Just wishful thinking. By your logic if I take Pakistan's FM and HM statements on taliban and Karachi situation, are they also buckling..

Lets try and not read between the lines all the times. So times a statement is exactly what it sounds like..

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## TechLahore

foxbat said:


> Just wishful thinking. By your logic if I take Pakistan's FM and HM statements on taliban and Karachi situation, are they also buckling..
> 
> Lets try and not read between the lines all the times. So times a statement is exactly what it sounds like..



You are right, no point in reading between the lines. In due time things will become clear. 

2010 has definitely seen an upsurge in Kashmir, and the upsurge is not just due to separatist military activity, but also political protests, civil disobedience and so on. These are just facts on the ground, so we can each wonder why they are, or where they will lead to, and whether the fire will burn hotter next year. But political statements are a dime a dozen. What matters is action on the ground.

My personal opinion is that with no further delay, a sincere round of discussions on Kashmir should be held by the concerned parties, starting from where Musharraf and Vajpayee left off. If the scenario in Kashmir continues to become more violent, it will make it politically difficult for Indian politicians to come to the table without appearing weak. If proactive measures to initiate dialogue are taken now, there can be political face saving and rather than appearing to react in knee jerk fashion where the primary motivation is fear, India will instead be seen as a party interested in peace.

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## Yeti

TechLahore said:


> You are right, no point in reading between the lines. In due time things will become clear.
> 
> 2010 has definitely seen an upsurge in Kashmir, and the upsurge is not just due to separatist military activity, but also political protests, civil disobedience and so on. These are just facts on the ground, so we can each wonder why they are, or where they will lead to, and whether the fire will burn hotter next year. But political statements are a dime a dozen. What matters is action on the ground.
> 
> My personal opinion is that with no further delay, a sincere round of discussions on Kashmir should be held by the concerned parties, starting from where Musharraf and Vajpayee left off. If the scenario in Kashmir continues to become more violent, it will make it politically difficult for Indian politicians to come to the table without appearing weak. If proactive measures to initiate dialogue are taken now, there can be political face saving and rather than appearing to react in knee jerk fashion where the primary motivation is fear, India will instead be seen as a party interested in peace.




Public won't allow composite dialogue to start after 26/11 without the culprits punished it seems the terrorists have won the peace progress has now been derailed which started under Musharraf and Vajpayee.


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## Developereo

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Not an inch of Kashmir will be given to separatists: Farooq - Hindustan Times



He's a stooge. Nobody's asking him.

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## foxbat

TechLahore said:


> You are right, no point in reading between the lines. In due time things will become clear.
> 
> 2010 has definitely seen an upsurge in Kashmir, and the upsurge is not just due to separatist military activity, but also political protests, civil disobedience and so on. These are just facts on the ground, so we can each wonder why they are, or where they will lead to, and whether the fire will burn hotter next year. But political statements are a dime a dozen. What matters is action on the ground.
> 
> My personal opinion is that with no further delay, a sincere round of discussions on Kashmir should be held by the concerned parties, starting from where Musharraf and Vajpayee left off. If the scenario in Kashmir continues to become more violent, it will make it politically difficult for Indian politicians to come to the table without appearing weak. If proactive measures to initiate dialogue are taken now, there can be political face saving and rather than appearing to react in knee jerk fashion where the primary motivation is fear, India will instead be seen as a party interested in peace.



I agree.. Also both political sides will need to ensure that the start of dialog is accompanied (not preceeded or followed) by large CBMs, that are huge enough to drown out the nay sayers in both countries. Things like quick prosecution on 26/11 accused, Major policy decisions on Siachen/Sir Creek, visible actions on likes of LeT and JeM and a visible demilitarization in J&K. Along with some large enough economical partnership statemetn. If we can find boldness on both sides of the border to do this, I personally believe that this can be solved quickly enough..

May sound too optimistic, but no harm in that.. eh? After all staying pessimistic doesnt help either.. Atleast staying optimistic help you sleep better...


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## foxbat

Developereo said:


> He's a stooge. Nobody's asking him.



Well, him being a minister in the GoI, his statements carry significantly more weight than a bunch of Tom, Dicks and Harrys in Pakistan who keep making statements on Kashmir, even if they do it with a brigade of armed insurgents under them..


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## TechLahore

foxbat said:


> I agree.. Also both political sides will need to ensure that the start of dialog is accompanied (not preceeded or followed) by large CBMs, that are huge enough to drown out the nay sayers in both countries. Things like quick prosecution on 26/11 accused, Major policy decisions on Siachen/Sir Creek, visible actions on likes of LeT and JeM and a visible demilitarization in J&K. Along with some large enough economical partnership statemetn. If we can find boldness on both sides of the border to do this, I personally believe that this can be solved quickly enough..
> 
> May sound too optimistic, but no harm in that.. eh? After all staying pessimistic doesnt help either.. Atleast staying optimistic help you sleep better...



If there is a "bundle" of CBMs in which both sides are seen to make concessions, then I think it could be sold to both populaces. For example, both India and Pakistan have lists of "terrorists" they have given to each other. There could be some agreement on prosecution for the appropriate people on such lists. Demilitarization could start in Siachen so that it reverts to a pre 1980 position. We could sign an agreement not to use an ecologically important area such as Siachen for purposes of war or military deployments. 

There's a lot that can be done if there is the political will. That's why I suggested that if somehow the violence that is rising in Kashmir can be preempted by both sides sitting together and working it out, it will be good for all involved. It's been two years since 26/11 now, and honestly, what is done is done. We almost went to war over this. We now have a clear choice. Either we allow that incident to hold one a half billion people hostage, or we move on. It would be a monumental failure of leadership if the former is allowed to happen.

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## Ammyy

Developereo said:


> He's a stooge. Nobody's asking him.



Ohh so he is stooge 

Well he is elected by people 

But i dnt knw what Gellani is who contest elections twice and *lost* both times


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## TechLahore

foxbat said:


> Well, him being a minister in the GoI, his statements carry significantly more weight than a bunch of Tom, Dicks and Harrys in Pakistan who keep making statements on Kashmir, even if they do it with a brigade of armed insurgents under them..



Why are you comparing his statements to "Toms, Dicks and Harry's". You should compare his statements to ministers on this side of the fence. You have your own RSS/Purohit types that fall in the "Tom Dick and Harry" category with "armed terrorists under them".


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## TechLahore

DRDO said:


> But i dnt knw what Gellani is who contest elections twice and *lost* both times



Geelani wants freedom for Kashmir. The "elections" in Kashmir are organized by a force he deems to be an occupation power. Do you honestly think the result of such an election says anything at all about a separatist leader's true popularity.

I would request us to refrain from this this line of discussion. It will come to blows very shortly. Let's zoom out and talk about the macro issue instead.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Developereo said:


> He's a stooge. Nobody's asking him.



And the so-called Prime Minister of So-called Azad Kashmir is not?


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## Yeti

We will never forget what happened on 26/11 and no talks will start until the culprits of these heinous acts are brought to book after all we are a democracy and no party can go againist the will of the mass population. Congress has just been destroyed in the Bihar polls this week it is in no position to start talks with Pakistan on Kashmir if it does then it will be a early x mas present for BJP and it's allies.


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## ares

TechLahore said:


> is it necessary to reduce the discussion to this?



No it is not, but I dare say, the opening one liner was not mine.

Dr Farooq Abdullah is an important cabinet minister in Union government.

*I have serious reservation for him being called a stooge, bottom line is he is a proud Indian and always has been. *


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## foxbat

TechLahore said:


> Why are you comparing his statements to "Toms, Dicks and Harry's". You should compare his statements to ministers on this side of the fence. You have your own RSS/Purohit types that fall in the "Tom Dick and Harry" category with "armed terrorists under them".



The point I was making was that even those Tom, Dicks are Harrys (mostly criminals as declared by GoP as well) dont stop in making statements on Kashmir. Then Farooq Abdullah being a minister in the govt within whose borders J&K is located, has signinficantly more credibility (atleast from where I see) in making statements on J&K..

It was a response to "who asked him"


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## CaptainJackSparrow

TechLahore said:


> You are right, no point in reading between the lines. In due time things will become clear.
> 
> 2010 has definitely seen an upsurge in Kashmir, and the upsurge is not just due to separatist military activity, but also political protests, civil disobedience and so on. These are just facts on the ground, so we can each wonder why they are, or where they will lead to, and whether the fire will burn hotter next year. But political statements are a dime a dozen. What matters is action on the ground.
> 
> My personal opinion is that with no further delay, a sincere round of discussions on Kashmir should be held by the concerned parties, starting from where Musharraf and Vajpayee left off. If the scenario in Kashmir continues to become more violent, it will make it politically difficult for Indian politicians to come to the table without appearing weak. If proactive measures to initiate dialogue are taken now, there can be political face saving and rather than appearing to react in knee jerk fashion where the primary motivation is fear, India will instead be seen as a party interested in peace.



I think you meant from where Musharraf and Manmohan left off.

But the thing is, Kayani has gone back to the conventionally hardliner position of PA.


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## TechLahore

^^ No, I mean where Musharraf and Vajpayee left off.


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## foxbat

TechLahore said:


> Why are you comparing his statements to "Toms, Dicks and Harry's". You should compare his statements to ministers on this side of the fence. You have your own RSS/Purohit types that fall in the "Tom Dick and Harry" category with "armed terrorists under them".



Sir, I am trying to stay within the rules and not using the term terrorists for armed insurgents of LeT, Hizbul etc who are attacking the Indian armed forces in J&K. But then if you switch to the T word to abuse Indians then this will unnecessarily derail a good discussion..

Can I request you to amend your post and delete this one of mine..


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## CaptainJackSparrow

TechLahore said:


> ^^ No, I mean where Musharraf and Vajpayee left off.



But mushy and Vajpayee never reached anywhere. Did they?


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## TechLahore

foxbat said:


> Sir, I am trying to stay within the rules and not using the term terrorists for armed insurgents of LeT, Hizbul etc who are attacking the Indian armed forces in J&K. But then if you switch to the T word to abuse Indians then this will unnecessarily derail a good discussion..
> 
> Can I request you to amend your post and delete this one of mine..



I think you misunderstood me. The people who helped blow up Samjhota in India under the guidance of Purohit, are those people not considered terrorists by the Indian government? If they are not, then let me know and I will amend what I wrote.

By the way, Pakistan considers the Sipah-e-Sahaba a terrorist movement, for example. I am fine using the word to describe them. I am not taking the position that terrorists only exist in India and there are none in Pakistan.


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## foxbat

TechLahore said:


> I think you misunderstood me. The people who helped blow up Samjhota in India under the guidance of Purohit, are those people not considered terrorists by the Indian government? If they are not, then let me know and I will amend what I wrote.
> 
> By the way, Pakistan considers the Sipah-e-Sahaba a terrorist movement, for example. I am fine using the word to describe them. I am not taking the position that terrorists only exist in India and there are none in Pakistan.



But Tech, LeT which is responsible for most of the infiltrations in J&K is a designated terrorist organization by GoP and UN. But we dont call those infiltrating into Kashmir, terrorists on this forum. About Purohit, he is still under trial and if he has truely done the dastardly deed, I hope he is brought to book. But as I said, a lot of CBMs and a lot less verbal one upmanship is needed for a solution. And to some extent same applies to this forum too.. Isnt it?


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## ares

Developereo said:


> He just parrots the Indian government's position and being 'elected' in the presence of half a million occupying troops is hardly credible.



There were no Indian troops present in J&K when he first became Chief minster in 1982.

He, his father before him Sheikh Abdullah( Sher-e-Kashmir ) and his son after him have always been staunch nationalists.

Hence as nationalists their views differ from those of separatists or Pakistanis.

So does supporting your own government and country makes you a stooge?

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## sensenreason

While suppressing views is not good, but talking to them would be considered bowing to terror pressure. Instead, the situation should be improved from a security perspective. The Govt seems to be doing so.However, its also making noises to talk with Hurriyat etc, which begs the question how far will the Govt give in to these guys and Pak-China.

Govt should keep in mind that a resolution cannot be at the cost of India, as the nation.


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## EgO Boy

I have a very simple solution sent FATA to IOK after americans leave Afghanistan. 

It got u the present AK and it will get u the rest of it also. Have faith in ur own people, instead of International Hypocracy.


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## foxbat

EgO Boy said:


> I have a very simple solution sent FATA to IOK after americans leave Afghanistan.
> 
> It got u the present AK and it will get u the rest of it also. Have faith in ur own people, instead of International Hypocracy.



You mean FATA or people of FATA??

btw, whatever you got of Kashmir was mostly before India was pulled into the conflict by the Maharaja of Kashmir.

You did that in Afghanistan after the soviets left.. See where it has taken your contry. Want to do that again, be my guest...


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## CaptainJackSparrow

EgO Boy said:


> I have a very simple solution sent FATA to IOK after americans leave Afghanistan.
> 
> It got u the present AK and it will get u the rest of it also. Have faith in ur own people, instead of International Hypocracy.



Very simple(istic) indeed.


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## EgO Boy

foxbat said:


> You mean FATA or people of FATA??
> 
> btw, whatever you got of Kashmir was mostly before India was pulled into the conflict by the Maharaja of Kashmir.
> 
> You did that in Afghanistan after the soviets left.. See where it has taken your contry. Want to do that again, be my guest...




Have faith, its coming, just wait for americans to leave.

Thats way ur country is so worried of american withdrawl from Afghanistan.

And i would love to be ur uninvited guest in IOK.


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## Jade

Developereo said:


> He's a stooge. Nobody's asking him.



Who is not stooge?...So according to you people of Jammu are stooges, people of Ladakh are stooges, and 98% of Valley people are stooges...and anybody who is pro India is a stooge. That is rather a sad side of classification


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## Developereo

ares said:


> So does supporting your own government and country makes you a stooge?



Supporting an occupying power might make you a traitor in some people's eyes.



jade1982 said:


> Who is not stooge?...So according to you people of Jammu are stooges, people of Ladakh are stooges, and 98% of Valley people are stooges...and anybody who is pro India is a stooge. That is rather a sad side of classification



Indian polls, conducted at gun point, figuratively.


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## Ammyy

Developereo said:


> He's a stooge. Nobody's asking him.



*Yes he is a stooge ... born in India and elected by stooge Indians *


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## CaptainJackSparrow

EgO Boy said:


> i would love to be ur uninvited guest in IOK.



I too would love to be your host in case you come uninvited.


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## Ammyy

Developereo said:


> Indian polls, conducted at gun point, figuratively.



Buddy why you going off topic we are not taking about azad Kashmir 

Just stick to Jammu and Kashmir


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## Jade

In most posts by Pakistanis, they assume that if plebiscite were to be held, People of J&K would choose Pakistan, ignoring that there could be different concerns and aspirations, so anybody who talks pro India is a stooge and anyone who talks anti India is a Kashmiri Nationalist...It seems that the Kashmir is just a hogwash for Pakistan&#8217;s anti India sentiments


----------



## Jade

Developereo said:


> Indian polls, conducted at gun point, figuratively.



You are entitled to you opinion...world says they are free and fair


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## Whiplash

Subramanian said:


> dude,RSS is the moral fabric of India.I think most of you here know about it only from the pseudo secular media which tries to portray it as a demon as it seeks to unite Indians.
> 
> It was the only organization physically involved in safely rescuing the people migrating from western punjab to eastern punjab and also running refugee camps in delhi to help the lost people get back to their families.
> 
> check out this and then talk to me
> 
> Direct Action Day - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Oh shut up. Evin Stalin had his humanitarian stuff. Doesn't make him any less of a Stalin. And the east punjab thing is 60 years old now. I can't believe a literate indian with a broadband connection supporting the RSS. That's reserved for dumbass hindutva fascist pigs. Let's keep our side of the subcontinent secular. 
Else it'll be like going the pakistan way. Might as well call ourselves the 'Hindu republic of India'


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## Subramanian

pmukherjee said:


> Not in good taste friend. Does not contribute positively to the debate in any way.



Dont beatify him as a saint,this is the illness of india.If you are in serious politics,this is not an impossible outcome.

And Gandhi did let Bhagat singh hung up,for all his sainthood.Try reading Godse's point of view for why he did what he did.Stop thinking that Congress did us all a favour by getting us independence.

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## sensenreason

EgO Boy said:


> Have faith, its coming, just wait for americans to leave.
> 
> Thats way ur country is so worried of american withdrawl from Afghanistan.
> 
> And i would love to be ur uninvited guest in IOK.



NATO has recently changed its strategy and has decided to STAY PUT in Afghanistan.So US has outsourced its work to the Europeans and is in turn bringing the Russians closer to the West. 

This means the pressure on insurgency will increase and chances of a rag tag taking over in Kabul are fast receding.

Honestly, NATO is tougher to deal with than the Americans not only for India but also for Pakistan. I think in the overall scheme of things India still loses and gets another unwanted armed guest in its neighbourhood.


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## Whiplash

EgO Boy said:


> Have faith, its coming, just wait for americans to leave.
> 
> Thats way ur country is so worried of american withdrawl from Afghanistan.
> 
> And i would love to be ur uninvited guest in IOK.



You need american permission to deploy your own sovereign army elsewhere? Wow, NOW THAT'S AN ARMY I'M AFRAID OF!


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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> Mirwaiz Bilal reach Kolkata Lastupdate:- Sun, 28 Nov 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com
> 
> 
> 
> The Hurriyat has arrived!



Best of luck for convincing the common Indian, Kashmir is *NOT* a Part of India.

Infact luck will not suffice -- he will need his God's divine intervention to do it.


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## KS

Whiplash said:


> Oh shut up. Evin Stalin had his humanitarian stuff. Doesn't make him any less of a Stalin. And the east punjab thing is 60 years old now. *I can't believe a literate indian with a broadband connection supporting the RSS. That's reserved for dumbass hindutva fascist pigs.* Let's keep our side of the subcontinent secular.
> Else it'll be like going the pakistan way. Might as well call ourselves the 'Hindu republic of India'



Mind your bloody words ---- Its not you alone who type BS.  --- If you believe in this Congress/Left propaganda of (pseudo) Secularism,you can believe it-- but dont call others who are aware about it names.

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## Agnostic_Indian

Subramanian said:


> Dont beatify him as a saint,this is the illness of india.If you are in serious politics,this is not an impossible outcome.
> 
> And Gandhi did let Bhagat singh hung up,for all his sainthood.Try reading Godse's point of view for why he did what he did.Stop thinking that Congress did us all a favour by getting us independence.


I believe it is the likes of bhagathsingh who played bigger part for our independence. Some says gandhi did tried to save bhagathsingh and some says otherwise..i am not sure.
but nothing can justify godse's act..could you share what he has to say in justification.


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## brahmastra

if slapping those terrorist separatists is terrorism then I would like to become one.

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## KS

TechLahore said:


> You are right, no point in reading between the lines. In due time things will become clear.
> 
> 2010 has definitely seen an upsurge in Kashmir, and the upsurge is not just due to separatist military activity, but also political protests, civil disobedience and so on. These are just facts on the ground, so we can each wonder why they are, or where they will lead to, and whether the fire will burn hotter next year. But political statements are a dime a dozen. What matters is action on the ground.
> 
> My personal opinion is that with no further delay, a sincere round of discussions on Kashmir should be held by the concerned parties, starting from where Musharraf and Vajpayee left off. If the scenario in Kashmir continues to become more violent, it will make it politically difficult for Indian politicians to come to the table without appearing weak. If proactive measures to initiate dialogue are taken now, there can be political face saving and rather than appearing to react in knee jerk fashion where the primary motivation is fear, India will instead be seen as a party interested in peace.



Two concession I can think of that will literally kick start negotiations is first Pakistan adequately prosecuting those responsible for 26/11 and India responding in kind immediately with a slew of economic benefits that aims at stabilising the Pak economy.

Without these initial catalysts,the main issue of Kashmir is going no where.



TechLahore said:


> Why are you comparing his statements to "Toms, Dicks and Harry's". You should compare his statements to ministers on this side of the fence. You have your own RSS/Purohit types that fall in the "Tom Dick and Harry" category with "armed terrorists under them".



Lt.Col Purohit has been convicted and is behind bars --- not organising rallies in Delhi,Mumbai declaring "dharmayudh" against Pakistan.

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## GORKHALI

india terrorists - i mean slaping those folks are terrorism and blowing in between market is peaceful act that is how terrorism should be define isn't it ?? Please any of indian members can post video link here about the captured terrorist in kashmir giving interview even to many international journalist about recent kashmir voilence..

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## Subramanian

Whiplash said:


> Oh shut up. Evin Stalin had his humanitarian stuff. Doesn't make him any less of a Stalin. And the east punjab thing is 60 years old now. I can't believe a literate indian with a broadband connection supporting the RSS. That's reserved for dumbass hindutva fascist pigs. Let's keep our side of the subcontinent secular.
> Else it'll be like going the pakistan way. Might as well call ourselves the 'Hindu republic of India'



Hinduism is automatically secular.It is because of ignorant brainwashed **** sucking moderate pisshead morons like you that mother india is bleeding herself to death.

I am literate and i am supposed to side with moderate mullah sucking pussies.please?it is because of numbskulls like you that a devout hindu is seen upon as an evil guy in the society these days.

We are the hindu republic of india,whether you like it or not.All over the world and probably even in Mars,it is always the majority that makes the rules and minorities adapt themselves and live,not the other way around.

It is because of the hindu nationalists in north west of india that you are still walking peacefully on the road and using a computer.Else you ll be facing westwards and doing namaz while going to study in a madrassa.Learn to appreciate history and the people who shed their blood so that you can live peacefully and prosperously today.

East Punjab is 60 years old,but the scars live for ever my man.If i am in combat eye ball to eye ball,then it takes both of us to turn back and walk at once,if i do it first i get stabbed in the back.

If the country is so secular,why is it that hindus have to live like slaves here?


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## LaBong

> Hinduism is automatically secular.It is because of ignorant brainwashed **** sucking moderate pisshead morons like you that mother india is bleeding herself to death.



Sounds same as, Islam is automatically democratic. It is because of ignorant brainwashed **** sucking moderate pisshead morons like you that mother pakistan is bleeding herself to death.

_Sorry Pakistanis for brining Pakistani into it. _

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## Hindustani

Wait Wait Wait Wait.................


So stone pelters are considered "freedom fighters" 

while slappers are considered "terrorists"?

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## Subramanian

Godse's statement:

The Man - The Mahatma : Nathuram Godse

BTW,i dont have extreme views on either of these 2 people,gandhi and godse.

Gandhi is not the saint as he is seen to be and Godse is not the villain as he is portrayed to be.

Having said this,i would have done the same if i was Godse but instead of Gandhi,i would have killed Nehru.


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## Capt.Popeye

Subramanian said:


> Hinduism is automatically secular.It is because of ignorant brainwashed **** sucking moderate pisshead morons like you that mother india is bleeding herself to death.
> 
> I am literate and i am supposed to side with moderate mullah sucking pussies.please?it is because of numbskulls like you that a devout hindu is seen upon as an evil guy in the society these days.
> 
> We are the hindu republic of india,whether you like it or not.All over the world and probably even in Mars,it is always the majority that makes the rules and minorities adapt themselves and live,not the other way around.
> 
> It is because of the hindu nationalists in north west of india that you are still walking peacefully on the road and using a computer.Else you ll be facing westwards and doing namaz while going to study in a madrassa.Learn to appreciate history and the people who shed their blood so that you can live peacefully and prosperously today.
> 
> East Punjab is 60 years old,but the scars live for ever my man.If i am in combat eye ball to eye ball,then it takes both of us to turn back and walk at once,if i do it first i get stabbed in the back.
> 
> If the country is so secular,why is it that hindus have to live like slaves here?



Do you wear "khaki chaddis" while carrying a lathi with a "kala-topi" perched on your head ? i mean are you a card-carrying RSS bloke ? if you are, then enuff said.

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## LaBong

Why you RSS guys taking credit for Bhagat Singh? He was neither Hindu nor Sikh. He was atheist to core and probably hated religious fanatics.

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## Capt.Popeye

Subramanian said:


> Godse's statement:
> 
> The Man - The Mahatma : Nathuram Godse
> 
> BTW,i dont have extreme views on either of these 2 people,gandhi and godse.
> 
> Gandhi is not the saint as he is seen to be and Godse is not the villain as he is portrayed to be.
> 
> Having said this,i would have done the same if i was Godse but instead of Gandhi,i would have killed Nehru.



Thank god you are not Godse, but Subra..... or whatever. Some credence left.
And i don't have to be a fan of Nehru or Gandhi. They came and went.


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## Hindustani

Subramanian said:


> Godse's statement:
> 
> The Man - The Mahatma : Nathuram Godse
> 
> BTW,i dont have extreme views on either of these 2 people,gandhi and godse.
> 
> Gandhi is not the saint as he is seen to be and Godse is not the villain as he is portrayed to be.
> 
> Having said this,i would have done the same if i was Godse but instead of Gandhi,i would have killed Nehru.



I suggest you take a breather bro.. 

I respect your opinion condering Gandhi and Godse. 

However everyone does have their faults, and the fact of the matter is India is too late to become a "Hindu" country. With the number of Muslims, Sikhs, Christians etc., I'm glad I belong to a multi ethnic and multi religious country. 

Can't fix the past, but certainly the future. I'm deeply as patriotic as you are, but I mean what's done is done. There's no turning back. 
Nehru, Gandhi & Godse have been dead for a while... so there's no point of bringing them up again and then killing them.


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## Capt.Popeye

Hindustani said:


> Wait Wait Wait Wait.................
> 
> 
> So stone pelters are considered "freedom fighters"
> 
> while slappers are considered "terrorists"?



Wow, how can you change a bl**dy stone pelter into a "freedom fighter"

And a *slapper* is a *slapper* unless he/she is *slippery *enough to be a *slipper*.

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## Subramanian

Capt.Popeye said:


> Do you wear "khaki chaddis" while carrying a lathi with a "kala-topi" perched on your head ? i mean are you a card-carrying RSS bloke ? if you are, then enuff said.



No,i am a tee shirt and jeans wearing,555 smoking,VAT 69 boozing,Ganja sniffing womaniser who wishes very very badly that i listened to my father and did all that you asked me if i was into?

you are cool enough to make stereotypes man but we have enough brainwashed pseudo secularists already,do us a favor and vanish into thin air.


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## Hindustani

Capt.Popeye said:


> Wow, how can you change a bl**dy stone pelter into a "freedom fighter"
> 
> And a *slapper* is a *slapper* unless he/she is *slippery *enough to be a *slipper*.



Hence the sarcasm bro


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## Hindustani

Subramanian said:


> No,i am a tee shirt and jeans wearing,555 smoking,VAT 69 boozing,Ganja sniffing womaniser who wishes very very badly that i listened to my father and did all that you asked me if i was into?
> 
> you are cool enough to make stereotypes man but we have enough brainwashed pseudo secularists already,do us a favor and vanish into thin air.



This is beauty of a secular country.. speak your mind but don't take law into your own hands.

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## Subramanian

Abir said:


> Why you RSS guys taking credit for Bhagat Singh? He was neither Hindu nor Sikh. He was atheist to core and probably hated religious fanatics.



Who is taking credit for anything?Like hinduism believes there are million paths to reach god,the sangh also knows it is not the beginning nor end of patriotism.

btw,my own grandfather's cousin Vanchinathan killed an exploitative british collector in southern TN and he was a hardcore sangh man.bhagat was not the only revolutionary,so take it easy.

---------- Post added at 03:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:15 PM ----------




Capt.Popeye said:


> Thank god you are not Godse, but Subra..... or whatever. Some credence left.
> And i don't have to be a fan of Nehru or Gandhi. They came and went.



yeah whatever.


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## KS

Capt.Popeye said:


> Do you wear "khaki chaddis" while carrying a lathi with a "kala-topi" perched on your head ? i mean are you a card-carrying RSS bloke ? if you are, then enuff said.



Why is that everyone who is a RSS member (if he is one) automatically become the evil mascot who can be verbally abused ?

I will not explain enything about the innumerable social service and disaster recoverey programmes spearheaded by the RSS - I will just let it pass as the ignorance of a 'dude' who cannot go underneath to sift truth from propaganda.


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## Subramanian

Hindustani said:


> I suggest you take a breather bro..
> 
> I respect your opinion condering Gandhi and Godse.
> 
> However everyone does have their faults, and the fact of the matter is India is too late to become a "Hindu" country. With the number of Muslims, Sikhs, Christians etc., I'm glad I belong to a multi ethnic and multi religious country.
> 
> Can't fix the past, but certainly the future. I'm deeply as patriotic as you are, but I mean what's done is done. There's no turning back.
> Nehru, Gandhi & Godse have been dead for a while... so there's no point of bringing them up again and then killing them.



cool but tell me something even though it has been 60 years since all this happened,has the rules of the game changed?our country is still ruled by a political and bureaucratic system which belongs to the colonial era.

The rules of the game have not changed and the masters of the game,Indian national congress still play it the way it suits them.

when that happens to the case,how can all that what happened in 1947,48 and 49 become irrelevant all of a sudden?


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## Infinity

Karthic Sri said:


> Mind your bloody words ---- Its not you alone who type BS.  --- If you believe in this Congress/Left propaganda of (pseudo) Secularism,you can believe it-- but dont call others who are aware about it names.




Being a senior member and patriotic 
I dint see pain in you when an Indian abused father of Nation.


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## Subramanian

Karthic Sri said:


> Why is that everyone who is a RSS member (if he is one) automatically become the evil mascot who can be verbally abused ?
> 
> I will not explain enything about the innumerable social service and disaster recoverey programmes spearheaded by the RSS - I will just let it pass as the ignorance of a 'dude' who cannot go underneath to sift truth from propaganda.



yeah yeah,most of these half baked NDTV watching morons would have hardly been anywhere outside a place with a 3-digit STD code.


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## Subramanian

Infinity said:


> Being a senior member and patriotic
> I dint see pain in you when an Indian abused father of Nation.



i abuse my own father if he errs and my father matters to me a million times more than the concept of a father of the nation.for me the true patriots would be Sardar Vallabhai Patel and Chakravarti Rajagopalachari,they are the ones i would put on a high pedestal.

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## Infinity

Subramanian said:


> cool but tell me something even though it has been 60 years since all this happened,has the rules of the game changed?our country is still ruled by a political and bureaucratic system which belongs to the colonial era.
> 
> The rules of the game have not changed and the masters of the game,Indian national congress still play it the way it suits them.
> 
> when that happens to the case,how can all that what happened in 1947,48 and 49 become irrelevant all of a sudden?



Our Country In central and state is governed by Democratically elected Government.
If you don't have Faith in Democracy your are free to leave.


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## KS

Infinity said:


> Being a senior member and patriotic
> I dint see pain in you when an Indian abused father of Nation.



I am a firm believer in the notion of not 'blindly' following whatever comes out without researching myself.

Mahatma Gandhiji was also a human and certainly he had his share of shortcomings.So I prefer not to label Mahatma as 'God' blindly or Godse as the 'Devil incarnate' automatically.

The truth is always in shades of Grey and not in Black and white and it may never come out.


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## ares

Developereo said:


> Supporting an occupying power might make you a traitor in some people's eyes.



So by this definition is Raja Farooq Haider Khan (Prime Minister of AJK) a Pakistani stooge and traitor to the people of Kashmir?


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## Infinity

Subramanian said:


> i abuse my own father if he errs and my father matters to me a million times more than the concept of a father of the nation.for me the true patriots would be Sardar Vallabhai Patel and Chakravarti Rajagopalachari,they are the ones i would put on a high pedestal.



Really??? That is Culture of RSS.

In Indian Culture Parents are God.

I feel pity for your Father


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## Subramanian

Abir said:


> Sounds same as, Islam is automatically democratic. It is because of ignorant brainwashed **** sucking moderate pisshead morons like you that mother pakistan is bleeding herself to death.
> 
> _Sorry Pakistanis for brining Pakistani into it. _



If hinduism was not secular we would still be reading from a book and making rules.If it was not secular,there would be no christians or muslims in India.it is because of its secularism that you get to have a different opinion today.

you are not the first atheist of india,there have been millions before you.

start picking up correct analogies.dont make random comparisons.


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## Awesome

Hurriyat leaders have been attacked again

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## T-Faz

What would attacking over and over achieve other than make the Kashmiri's even more agitated.


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## KS

T-Faz said:


> What would attacking over and over achieve other than make the Kashmiri's even more agitated.



Where were they attacked ---- it was very dignified,civil meeting where PR was countered with PR and words were countered with words.


YouTube - Ex-Army chief exposes Mirwaiz Umar Farook

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## Awesome

> Kolkata: Hurriyat Conference Chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq was greeted by another protest on Sunday at a seminar in Kolkata.
> 
> The protest was carried out by the Bharatiya Janta Party (BJP) workers. Fifteen to twenty BJP workers also have been arrested.
> 
> Police sources have been also deployed in large numbers at the seminar venue. The incident comes just three days after Mirwaiz was heckled by Kashmiri Pandits and activists of right wing Hindu groups at a seminar in Chandigarh.



Man this guy has some guts. He is a very impressive personality. My message to him, Dattay raho!


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## foxbat

EgO Boy said:


> Have faith, its coming, just wait for americans to leave.
> 
> Thats way ur country is so worried of american withdrawl from Afghanistan.
> 
> And i would love to be ur uninvited guest in IOK.





I remeber some one making an obseration that folks like you sound so much like.

"Mere Papa jab office jayenge to mein tujhe dekh loonga" 

Amreeka se darte ho kya??


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## Subramanian

Hindustani said:


> I suggest you take a breather bro..
> 
> I respect your opinion condering Gandhi and Godse.
> 
> However everyone does have their faults, and the fact of the matter is India is too late to become a "Hindu" country. With the number of Muslims, Sikhs, Christians etc., I'm glad I belong to a multi ethnic and multi religious country.
> 
> Can't fix the past, but certainly the future. I'm deeply as patriotic as you are, but I mean what's done is done. There's no turning back.
> Nehru, Gandhi & Godse have been dead for a while... so there's no point of bringing them up again and then killing them.



and dont put the sikhs differently,they are one of us.

i know we are a multi ethnic society but if you want to keep the hindu society and culture at status quo with the aggressive intolerant book religions,you have to identify the majority and minorities separately.


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## ARCHON

_Greeted by another protest_ doesn't mean _attacked_. Both have different meanings in English language.

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## Subramanian

Infinity said:


> Really??? That is Culture of RSS.
> 
> In Indian Culture Parents are God.
> 
> I feel pity for your Father



It is the culture of reasoning.I ll always criticize when a wrong thing is done and even if it is done by my own dad.Sitting like a duck when things go wrong is not the culture of RSS.

And my dad appreciates the same,he would prefer me to point it out when he errs rather than do lip service and boost his ego.

and i wold make the son also do the same.


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## Awesome

ARCHON said:


> _Greeted by another protest_ doesn't mean _attacked_. Both have different meanings in English language.


Attack on Mirwaiz | Kashmiri Pandits | Kashmir Separatists | Huriyat Conference | Kolkata - Oneindia News

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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> Hurriyat leaders have been attacked again





T-Faz said:


> What would attacking over and over achieve other than make the Kashmiri's even more agitated.



I would like to see proof of Mirwaiz being attacked in Kolkata.Mods and Admins spreading false info is not something nice.


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## Subramanian

Infinity said:


> Our Country In central and state is governed by *Democratically elected Government*.
> If you don't have Faith in Democracy your are free to leave.



It is not about faith or no faith in democracy.I don't understand how one can put their soul for bookish terms like democracy and secularism.

it doesn't matter what happens in a book,what matters is what happens in the reality and if that reality is bleak,i would be bothered.

Democracy my ***,is that why people cast their votes for 100 bucks and a quarter of whiskey.


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## Awesome

Seems like the BJP just wasn't successful

---------- Post added at 02:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:06 PM ----------




Karthic Sri said:


> I would like to see proof of Mirwaiz being attacked in Kolkata.Mods and Admins spreading false info is not something nice.


The word "attacked" was used by Indian media as I pointed out and it doesn't make it any better if they only managed to disrupt his seminar and weren't successful at attacking him.

---------- Post added at 02:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:07 PM ----------

Attempt to disrupt Mirwaiz's seminar in Kolkata


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## ARCHON

Asim Aquil said:


> Attack on Mirwaiz | Kashmiri Pandits | Kashmir Separatists | Huriyat Conference | Kolkata - Oneindia News



Thanks for the news article but it still says he has been greeted with protest and police has removed and arrested the protesters as required.

The citizens of the country has the right to conduct peaceful protests and when they go violent , rule of the law is applied like in Kolkata today.


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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> Attack on Mirwaiz | Kashmiri Pandits | Kashmir Separatists | Huriyat Conference | Kolkata - Oneindia News



Asim If you are referring to these lines -


> During his speech on Kashmir and Indo-Pak relation, Mirwaiz was manhandled and the attackers destroyed commodities of the seminar hall.



Then I should remind you they were in reference to the Chandigarh incident.

In our cricketing parlance - You are really out of form these days

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## GUNNER

*Charge Nehru with sedition, Arundhati tells Delhi*


*By Jawed Naqvi* 


*Sunday, 28 Nov, 2010*


*NEW DELHI, Nov 27:* A Delhi court ordered police on Saturday to file charges against a Kashmiri resistance leader and his Indian supporters who have been accused by the national media of sedition.


However, writer activist Arundhati Roy, one of the alleged participants in a recent anti-national seminar, *said police should first file sedition charges against Jawaharlal Nehru because the countrys first prime minister believed the Kashmir dispute could only be settled by the people of Kashmir.*


Delhis Metropolitan Magistrate Navita Kumari Bagga directed the police to lodge an FIR against hardline Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Ms Roy and five others on the charge of sedition for their alleged anti-India speeches.


Ms Bagga, under pressure from rightwing Hindu petitioners, slammed the police for their prolonged inaction and weird reply that no offence was made out against Mr Geelani and Ms Roy, whose speeches had triggered a nationwide controversy.


Ms Roy said it was a frivolous case which had sought to shift the focus away from the raging financial scandals that have rocked Prime Minister Manmohan Singhs government. Leading media personalities, some of them questioning her patriotism, were caught in the net of a damaging probe.


In a press statement, Ms Roy listed a number of occasions when Indias first prime minister had described the Kashmir dispute in a manner which would offend most Indians today. *She urged the police to file an FIR against Mr Nehru posthumously*.


According to Ms Roy, in his statement in the Indian Constituent Assembly on 25th November, 1947, Mr Nehru said: 

In order to establish our bona fide, we have suggested that when the people are given the chance to decide their future, this should be done under the supervision of an impartial tribunal such as the United Nations Organisation. *The issue in Kashmir is whether violence and naked force should decide the future or the will of the people*.


In his statement in the Indian Parliament on 7th August, 1952, according to Ms Roy, Mr Nehru said: 

Kashmir is very close to our minds and hearts and if by some decree or adverse fortune, ceases to be a part of India, it will be a wrench and a pain and torment for us. *If, however, the people of Kashmir do not wish to remain with us, let them go by all means. We will not keep them against their will, however painful it may be to us. I want to stress that it is only the people of Kashmir who can decide the future of Kashmir*

*However sad we may feel about leaving we are not going to stay against the wishes of the people. We are not going to impose ourselves on them on the point of the bayonet.*


Ms Roy said the Indian government was clearly violating Mr Nehrus pledge by seeking to bludgeon the people of Kashmir into submission.



DAWN.COM | Front Page | Charge Nehru with sedition, Arundhati tells Delhi

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## Awesome

> *Attempt to disrupt Mirwaiz's seminar in Kolkata*
> 
> SUNDAY, 28 NOVEMBER 2010 14:29 KDNN
> New Delhi: Scores of Bhartiya Janata Party (BJP) workers on Sunday *tried to disrupt a meeting* to protest against the presence of Hurriyat Conference chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq at a seminar in Kolkata.
> 
> BJP workers carrying party flags and raising anti Hurriyat and Pakistan slogans tried to enter the venue. A huge contingent of police was deployed to thwart any attempt to disrupt the meeting. Police arrested around 20 BJP workers from outside the venue in Kolkata.
> 
> On November 25, Mirwaiz was heckled and manhandled by a group of Kashmiri Pandits backed by radical right wing groups at a seminar in Chandigarh.



You can support your religious nutjobs as much as you want, they have done something illegal by barging into a private seminar.


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## ARCHON

Asim Aquil said:


> You can support your religious nutjobs as much as you want, they have done something illegal by barging into a private seminar.



Thats why they are arrested and removed.


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## Awesome

Karthic Sri said:


> Asim If you are referring to these lines -
> 
> Then I should remind you they were in reference to the Chandigarh incident.
> 
> In our cricketing parlance - You are really out of form these days


I know that they weren't successful, the Kashmir dispatch pointed out that they only tried to disrupt the meeting, and the Indian media used the word ATTACKED, not me. That is another thing, BJP faced the bisti and had to walk off.

---------- Post added at 02:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 PM ----------




ARCHON said:


> Thats why they are arrested and removed.


But they did disrupt and showed their loser-panna


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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> [/COLOR]
> The word "attacked" was used by Indian media as I pointed out and it doesn't make it any better if they only managed to disrupt his seminar and weren't successful at attacking him.






Asim Aquil said:


> I know that they weren't successful, the Kashmir dispatch pointed out that they only tried to disrupt the meeting, and the Indian media used the word ATTACKED, not me. That is another thing, BJP faced the bisti and had to walk off.




Cmon man -- you just cant add your own mirch masala to make it sound like an attack.

Any Indian has the constitutionally granted right to protest against what he deems fit and Mirwaiz is not some sacred cow and his words are not gospel that no-one should protest against him.

The Kolkata civil society responded admirably well and showed him his true place without even lifting their hand.Infact he should consider himself extremely lucky to have such a civilised audience.

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## LaBong

No one is attacked here. They have been asked question which they couldn't answer.


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## foxbat

Asim Aquil said:


> I know that they weren't successful, the Kashmir dispatch pointed out that they only tried to disrupt the meeting, and the Indian media used the word ATTACKED, not me. That is another thing, BJP faced the bisti and had to walk off.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 PM ----------
> 
> 
> But they did disrupt and showed their loser-panna



They protested outside, and inside the separatist leader was left speechless by pointed questions. The faker was totally exposed and had no answer to the questions asked. I would love them to go to Chennai next... 

We should get Rajnikant to attend in Chennai

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...-real-civil-society-put-splittists-place.html

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## ARCHON

@ Asim

Protests happen in a country like India , which is not something new or big as u are highlighting.

We saw protests when even Obama visited.

We see protests by traders when a new scheme which can harm them is introduced.Like that so many instances are there. We see protests everyday and everywhere.

There is nothing big in *highlighting* ,

With the lapse of security in Chandigarh, police has rightfully managed to arrest the few of the protesters (afterall they didnt protest throwing stones) and hopefully the states which have welcomed him for seminars will go on.

He has been welcomed to do a seminar in the state.. if all are against it he wouldn't had the permission to do in places across the nation.

This means a citizen has the right of speech even on sensitive matters and few protestors doesnt mean the whole nation.


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## KS

foxbat said:


> We should get Rajnikant to attend in Chennai
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...-real-civil-society-put-splittists-place.html



Dude --- SS Rajini has far better use of his time than attending the conference of this guy 

But anyway if he ever comes here he will be given a welcome party that he will not forget cause Chennaites are considered to be notoriously irascible.


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## foxbat

Walls are closing in on Ms Roy. She should have stuck with Maoists since they have a section of sympathisers, but with J&K, she has bitten off more than she can chew..


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## Awesome

Mirwaiz is protesting human rights violations, and Indians are protesting what he is protesting...

In essence Indians are saying they should be allowed to carry on with their Human Rights violations. Wah bahi. There is no tuk, no mantak to this protest other than disrupting the truth from coming out.


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## KS

*And I strongly protest the wordings of the title which are nothing but deceit and propaganda.* 

Now I strongly feel since anyway every visit 'will' be labelled as an attack --- the attack should atleast take place for real.

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## Awesome

foxbat said:


> They protested outside, and inside the separatist leader was left speechless by pointed questions. The faker was totally exposed and had no answer to the questions asked. I would love them to go to Chennai next...
> 
> We should get Rajnikant to attend in Chennai
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...-real-civil-society-put-splittists-place.html


Hasb-e-rawayat, Indian civil societies question even there were offtopic and they were essentially trolling.

he is there to discuss IA human rights violations everything else is a diversion.


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## T-Faz

Karthic Sri said:


> Where were they attacked ---- it was very dignified,civil meeting where PR was countered with PR and words were countered with words.
> 
> YouTube - Ex-Army chief exposes Mirwaiz Umar Farook



You should be telling that to the Kashmiri's because they will use such occurrences to highlight the differences between yourselves.


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## Abhishek_

The time of hiding behind verbal eloquence is running out. I hope the courts do the needful, I'd certainly love to see this nuisance finally taken care of.


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## KS

T-Faz said:


> You should be telling that to the Kashmiri's because they will use such occurrences to highlight the differences between yourselves.



Yes indeed they were told in very civilised,dignified manner in Kolkata.

But guess what it get propagandised as "attack" on defence.pk.

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## ARCHON

Asim Aquil said:


> Mirwaiz is protesting human rights violations, and *Indian*s are protesting what he is protesting...
> 
> In essence Indians are saying they should be allowed to carry on with their Human Rights violations. Wah bahi. There is no tuk, no mantak to this protest other than disrupting the truth from coming out.





Its not Indians , its the _protestors or protesting Indian_s.. 

Indians welcomed him in cities to speak on public forums.


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## foxbat

Asim Aquil said:


> Mirwaiz is protesting human rights violations, and Indians are protesting what he is protesting...
> 
> In essence Indians are saying they should be allowed to carry on with their Human Rights violations. Wah bahi. There is no tuk, no mantak to this protest other than disrupting the truth from coming out.



No matter how you spin it and throw how many punjabi sentences on this, the fact stays that in a single day, the state of India allowed Mirwaiz all the freedom of speech he wanted and Indian intelligentia asked him all the questions that he had no answers to and hence had to keep his mouth shut..


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## Capt.Popeye

Subramanian said:


> No,i am a tee shirt and jeans wearing,555 smoking,VAT 69 boozing,Ganja sniffing womaniser who wishes very very badly that i listened to my father and did all that you asked me if i was into?
> 
> you are cool enough to make stereotypes man but we have enough brainwashed pseudo secularists already,do us a favor and vanish into thin air.




Man you have done a lot of things in your life, good for you. Like your choice of cigarettes and booze is right out of "bollywood".

About me vanishing, maybe you will only have to do a couple of million *yagnas* to make that happen.
Yeah, if only wishes were horses.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Asim Aquil said:


> Mirwaiz is protesting human rights violations, and Indians are protesting what he is protesting...
> 
> In essence Indians are saying they should be allowed to carry on with their Human Rights violations. Wah bahi. There is no tuk, no mantak to this protest other than disrupting the truth from coming out.



You sound so confused. What exactly is your grudge that you want to discuss in this particular thread?

1. That Indians (BJP) protested outside the premises where the conference was going on and where the mirwaiz was not even touched?

2. That Mirwaiz was asked some tough questions he could not answer?

Dear Asim, one or two days back in this same thread you had pointed out that Indians are getting frustrated and I pointed how how or why our frustration was justified.

Today you sound so frustrated my dear friend.

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## CaptainJackSparrow

Karthic Sri said:


> *And I strongly protest the wordings of the title which are nothing but deceit and propaganda.*



Exactly, the title has been changed and it is a lie and propaganda. Absolute propaganda. Utter BS.
*
MIRWAIZ UMAR FAROOQ WAS NOT ATTACKED IN KOLKATA BY BJP ACTIVISTS.*

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## foxbat

Asim Aquil said:


> Hasb-e-rawayat, Indian civil societies question even there were offtopic and they were essentially trolling.
> 
> he is there to discuss IA human rights violations everything else is a diversion.



Yeah! Right... Kolkatta's civil society must be glad that they were not being moderated by the Defence.pk team 

btw, the questions turned the onus on Huriyat of causing the riots and hence making them responsible for the deaths the fake leader was in Kolkatta to protest....

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## KS

It is amusing to see that nobody understands that its not the Kashmiri Muslims who need to be convinced about they being part of India --- _it is the ordinary Indian who needs to be convinced that Kashmir is not a part of India._

There is a world of a difference in them.


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## Ammyy

Asim Aquil said:


> Hasb-e-rawayat, Indian civil societies question even there were offtopic and they were essentially trolling.
> 
> he is there to discuss IA human rights violations everything else is a diversion.



I think you have to clear your doubts first 



> Hurriyat Conference Chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq was today manhandled at a seminar organised here to discuss the *Jammu and Kashmir problem*. The incident took place at Kisan Bhawan in Sector 35.
> Rude reception for Mirwaiz



And i think question asked to him directly related to problem in Jammu and Kashmir


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## Abhishek_

Asim Aquil said:


> You can support your religious nutjobs as much as you want, they have done something illegal by barging into *a private seminar.*



and that's how he plans to reach out to the common indians??


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## T-Faz

Karthic Sri said:


> Yes indeed they were told in very civilised,dignified manner in Kolkata.
> 
> But guess what it get propagandised as "attack" on defence.pk.



Gotta use incidents to good effect, part of the game.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

T-Faz said:


> Gotta use incidents to good effect, part of the game.



How pretty! Even by lying and that too outrightly in the most foolish of ways?

You think we wouldn't know if he was attacked or not? There were hundreds of reporters and cameras there. How silly could one get?

Yaar jhuth bhi bolo toh kam se kam aisa bolo jo pakda naa jaaye

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## foxbat

T-Faz said:


> Gotta use incidents to good effect, part of the game.



Jab umpires apne saath ho to LBW se kya darna

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## Capt.Popeye

Asim Aquil said:


> Pandits have not been kept out of Kashmir, they can come back and will be welcomed.



That is very welcome. And sir; are you speaking on behalf of the _Hurriyat_ or _Kashmiris_ or somebody else?


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## GUNNER

foxbat said:


> Walls are closing in on Ms Roy. ..



You want her tried.. Ok.. But do you also refute Nehru's statement?


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## Subramanian

Capt.Popeye said:


> Man you have done a lot of things in your life, good for you. Like your choice of cigarettes and booze is right out of "bollywood".
> 
> About me vanishing, maybe you will only have to do a couple of million *yagnas* to make that happen.
> Yeah, if only wishes were horses.



it is a stereotype bro,dont believe everything that is being said like NDTV.

and seriously please try,if not vanishing into thin air,you can join the congress which is pretty much the same.


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## KS

T-Faz said:


> Gotta use incidents to good effect, part of the game.



Haha very well then --- All the best !

From now on I hope mirwaiz gets 'attacked' everywhere he goes so that you guys can get the max benefit.

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## Abhishek_

GUNNER said:


> You want her tried.. Ok.. But do you also refute Nehru's statement?



nope, but circumstances are drastically different today.

did you also notice, nehru is long gone


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Karthic Sri said:


> max benefit.

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## Capt.Popeye

Subramanian said:


> it is a stereotype bro,dont believe everything that is being said like NDTV.
> 
> and seriously please try,if not vanishing into thin air,you can join the congress which is pretty much the same.



Thanks but no thanks,
NDTV is the one with that emotional woman called Barkha. For me,it is only a channel on an "idiot box".
As for the Congress, remember the expression in english-- p_*ros and cons.*_. Well, the opposite of "_*pro*_gress is _*con*_gress".
Any other suggestions?


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## KS

Capt.Popeye said:


> Thanks but no thanks,
> NDTV is the one with that emotional woman called Barkha. For me,it is only a channel on an "idiot box".
> As for the Congress, remember the expression in english-- p_*ros and cons.*_. Well, the opposite of "_*pro*_gress is _*con*_gress".
> Any other suggestions?



Shall we leave it here ---- One thing I can assure for every one person abusing RSS there are 100s who like RSS.

The issue at hand is the Chandigarh incident.It doesnt matter who attacked Mirwaiz - RSS or VHP as long as it is the Kashmiri Pandit brothers who have a very valid grouse on the Hurriyat.

Shall we get back on topic.


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## justanobserver

*bump*


*

"In 2008, in an effort to streamline the work of the UN and to make the Security Council more effective, it was decided that items &#8220;which have not been considered by the Council at a formal meeting during the (previous) three-year period&#8221; would be completely removed from its purview."*


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## Jackdaws

I am no fan of hers since she is such an attention seeker. But she has a point. India and Nehru made those promises.


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## Capt.Popeye

Karthic Sri said:


> Shall we leave it here ---- One thing I can assure for every one person abusing RSS there are 100s who like RSS.
> 
> The issue at hand is the Chandigarh incident.It doesnt matter who attacked Mirwaiz - RSS or VHP as long as it is the Kashmiri Pandit brothers who have a very valid grouse on the Hurriyat.
> 
> Shall we get back on topic.



Fair enough,
If only the RSS and other bodies can debate the issues. They don't have to fall to the level of SS and MNS goons who try these stunts every time in Bombay. 
The Kolkata method of dealing with Mirwaiz is a more worthwhile one.


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## Awesome

Karthic Sri said:


> Cmon man -- you just cant add your own mirch masala to make it sound like an attack.
> 
> Any Indian has the constitutionally granted right to protest against what he deems fit and Mirwaiz is not some sacred cow and his words are not gospel that no-one should protest against him.
> 
> The Kolkata civil society responded admirably well and showed him his true place without even lifting their hand.Infact he should consider himself extremely lucky to have such a civilised audience.


Go sue all your Indian media outlets and then tell me what I can and cannot do, I merely quoted, not added.

Its a big incident and they were obviously attempting to attack thats why they have used the term "attacking". They, Indians, said Attacking not I. Go eat their head, not mine. Except that I think they are correct and you all are merely hiding behind stupid technicalities.

Moreover, its such a stupid thing to say they were merely protesting. Mirwaiz is protesting human rights violations and they are protesting what he's doing? So basically they are supporting human rights violations? Of course not, that would be stupid, unless you're saying they are that stupid - then that's another thing, but what I'm saying is that all of this hokey is an excuse to disrupt his seminar, nothing else.


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## indushek

Well its obvious isn't it, though its a world body it cant just cling on to old problems i mean like some 50 years back. That too according to the article this hasn't been brought up for what like 40 years!!!!

The best thing for both of us Indians and Pakistanis is to let the status quo be made to a permanent solution and then concentrate on trade.


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## twoplustwoisfour

Asim Aquil said:


> I merely quoted, not added.



No you didn't. Here's your post again:



Asim Aquil said:


> Hurriyat leaders have been attacked again



No links, no "I Quotes". I call that a statement, not quotation. You were bringing forward you opinion. Don't try to pass it off as someone elses.



Asim Aquil said:


> Moreover, its such a stupid thing to say they were merely protesting. Mirwaiz is protesting human rights violations and they are protesting what he's doing? So basically they are supporting human rights violations? Of course not, that would be stupid, unless you're saying they are that stupid - then that's another thing, but what I'm saying is that* all of this hokey is an excuse to disrupt his seminar, nothing else.*



Of course it is!! Were you expecting anything different? 

It's their right to dispute anyone the don't agree with, providing they do it by engaging in a proper debate. They tried to initiate a debate but the Mirwaiz hid behind his 'martyr' image.

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## Jako

No attack occured,activists protested outside the seminar building...but former army chief Shankar Roy Chowdhury,had some great words for him.just awesome what he said.tune onto times now to watch.


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## Nair saab

somebozo said:


> let us divide kashmir and be happy over it..if we can divide traditional pushtoon lands between afghanistan and pakistan then why not kashmir between india and pakistan..


Somebozo ur correct brother...let us leave the kashmir as it is with LOC recognized as the international border...if we follow the policy of past 60 years then it would be counterproductive....better start a new beginning 
recognize each other as MFN...then within years the bilateral will increase to more than 50 billion$$...if pakistan doesnt want to counter india any more then it can more focus & economy...a win win situation for both of us.... 
& now a days which hair oil are u using


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## Capt.Popeye

Actually not a bad idea at all. Under the law, Arundhati-bai as a private citizen is also empowered to move the courts, she should put her money where her mouth is. 
First she has to file a complaint; then get a FIR registered, she can then serve the summons. All due process of law.
Serve the summons/ notice to whom ? Maybe Rahul Gandhi ? or Priyanka Gandhi ?

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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> Go sue all your Indian media outlets and then tell me what I can and cannot do, I merely quoted, not added.
> 
> Its a big incident and they were obviously attempting to attack thats why they have used the term "attacking". They, Indians, said Attacking not I. Go eat their head, not mine. Except that I think they are correct and you all are merely hiding behind stupid technicalities.
> 
> Moreover, its such a stupid thing to say they were merely protesting. Mirwaiz is protesting human rights violations and they are protesting what he's doing? So basically they are supporting human rights violations? Of course not, that would be stupid, unless you're saying they are that stupid - then that's another thing, but what I'm saying is that all of this hokey is an excuse to disrupt his seminar, nothing else.



No one is interested in your interpretation of what they were 'trying' to do unless you are the leader of the BJP unit of Kolkata that was protesting. 

I can also say they were only 'trying' to give a hug to Mirwaiz and you cannot disprove it.

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## Capt.Popeye

somebozo said:


> let us divide kashmir and be happy over it..if we can divide traditional pushtoon lands between afghanistan and pakistan then why not kashmir between india and pakistan..



Actually that is the _status quo_ and is going to be (_probably till the dinosaurs return to walk the earth_).
Turning the LOC in to the IB was one of the serious points of consideration between GoI and GoP in their earlier negotiations.
And will finally become the lasting _fait accompli_.

Both countries have otherwise _*more*__* important and urgent *_matters to attend to.


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## Ammyy

I think its second time Farhan Haq caught telling lie ????

Why UN council not trowing him out cause he is destroying image of UN


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## KS

Capt.Popeye said:


> Actually not a bad idea at all. Under the law, Arundhati-bai as a private citizen is also empowered to move the courts, she should put her money where her mouth is.
> First she has to file a complaint; then get a FIR registered, she can then serve the summons. All due process of law.
> *Serve the summons/ notice to whom ? Maybe Rahul Gandhi ? *or Priyanka Gandhi ?



God Speed !!!!

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## Pagla Dashu

Asim Aquil said:


> Hasb-e-rawayat, Indian civil societies question even there were offtopic and they were essentially trolling.
> 
> he is there to discuss IA human rights violations everything else is a diversion.


The problem, which you can't see for obvious reason, is with the maximalist position that Mirwaiz and his ilk have taken. So long as they represent that separatist sentiment, majority of Indians, except a few ultra-liberal leftists, wouldn't want to be seen siding with him. It means, many legitimate issues, like the alleged human rights violations by security personnel, would always get bypassed. Heck, the separatists can't even explain, among other things, what 'azadi' means. 

Its a good thing that a section of Huriyat wants to reach out to the Indian intelligentsia, but alas, too little, too late. It is one thing to sit in Srinagar and raise hell through fiery speeches, it is another to sit with really smart people in an intelligent debate.

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## Awesome

Pagla Dashu said:


> The problem, which you can't see for obvious reason, is with the maximalist position that Mirwaiz and his ilk have taken. So long as they represent that separatist sentiment, majority of Indians, except a few ultra-liberal leftists, wouldn't want to be seen siding with him. It means, many legitimate issues, like the alleged human rights violations by security personnel, would always get bypassed. Heck, the separatists can't even explain, among other things, what 'azadi' means.
> 
> Its a good thing that a section of Huriyat wants to reach out to the Indian intelligentsia, but alas, too little, too late. It is one thing to sit in Srinagar and raise hell through fiery speeches, it is another to sit with really smart people in an intelligent debate.


He is not talking about Azaadi, and while talking about Human Rights violations, nothing but the maximum adherence to human rights is what should be argued. I mean c'mon, if not the maximum, how much human rights violations should we allow Indian Army? You tell me, what is the acceptable amount of human rights violations in India?


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## Awesome

Karthic Sri said:


> No one is interested in your interpretation of what they were 'trying' to do unless you are the leader of the BJP unit of Kolkata that was protesting.
> 
> I can also say they were only 'trying' to give a hug to Mirwaiz and you cannot disprove it.


So, then its game on, call it what you want, and we will call it as we want it.


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## Awesome

What a brilliant argument, if Kashmir is an integral part of India, declare Nehru as a traitor first! Nehru took Kashmir to the UN for a plebiscite!

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## KS

Nehru was a die-hard idealist who thought the solution to the world's peace lay at the doorsteps of the UN while Ms.Suzanne Arundati Roy is just another bleeding heart liberal cum anarchist who seeks to lay her hand ultimately on the Nobel.

No comparison whatsoever.

*PS:* I dont know what she is thinking nowadays.First she alienated the BJP and now she is rubbing the Congressis the wrong way.She seems to forget Congressis are a much more violent lot than the BJP and touchy with the issues concerning Nehru-Gandhi family

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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> So, then its game on, call it what you want, and we will call it as we want it.



But I did not call it such because I like an element of sanity in everything - in what I say and in what I hear

But then as you have made it amply clear ,this is your forum and so its ultimately your call,however it may sound.


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## Awesome

Iamme said:


> I pledge to god.
> If this Geelani comes in front of me,i ll attack him,if not kill him.
> Trust me,i pledge to god.
> 
> Whatever punishment,i ll take,if any.
> That will be my contribution for my nation.
> Still waiting to see him.


Filhaal yahan se toh dafa ho na... This type of display only makes your own nation seem psycho.


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## Pagla Dashu

Ms Roy is good, but not good enough. When Mr Nehru had made those comments, Kashmir was still not _constitutionally_ part of India. Kashmir became so on *26 January, 1957*. Earlier, on *15 February, 1954*, the constituent assembly of Jammu and Kashmir had vetted the accession of Kashmir with India. So Mr Nehru was not being seditious when he made those comments in 1952.

Really, Ms Roy is turning out to be a fine caricature.

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## KS

Asim Aquil said:


> What a brilliant argument, if Kashmir is an integral part of India, declare Nehru as a traitor first! Nehru took Kashmir to the UN for a plebiscite!






Pagla Dashu said:


> Ms Roy is good, but not good enough. When Mr Nehru had made those comments, Kashmir was still not _constitutionally_ part of India. Kashmir became so on *26 January, 1957*. Earlier, on *15 February, 1954*, the constituent assembly of Jammu and Kashmir had vetted the accession of Kashmir with India. So Mr Nehru was not being seditious when he made those comments in 1952.
> 
> Really, Ms Roy is turning out to be a fine caricature.



Excellent points Pagla --- A thousand thanks. 

Did she really get a Booker prize ?

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## Pagla Dashu

Asim Aquil said:


> He is not talking about Azaadi, and while talking about Human Rights violations, nothing but the maximum adherence to human rights is what should be argued. I mean c'mon, if not the maximum, how much human rights violations should we allow Indian Army? You tell me, what is the acceptable amount of human rights violations in India?


To answer your question, none. Even one death is unacceptable. But the problem is that these alleged human rights violations can't be seen in isolation. When seen in the right context, suddenly these alleged human rights violations, as unfortunate as they may be, look secondary to the larger issue, which is of course separatism. Coming from Mirwaiz, the complaints sound empty, given his maximalist posture.

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## KS

Capt.Popeye said:


> Fair enough,
> If only the RSS and other bodies can debate the issues. They don't have to fall to the level of SS and MNS goons who try these stunts every time in Bombay.
> The Kolkata method of dealing with Mirwaiz is a more worthwhile one.



True --- I liked (loved) to see Mirwaiz dumbfounded and not able to answer the questions posed to him by the Kolkatans. 

But one thing I can tell is in the majority of the places the reaction will be the Chandigarh type and justifiably so and only in the small no of places will the reaction be Calcutta-esque.


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## Rajkumar

doesn't matter if it is in UN resolutions or not the thing which matters most is the fact "kashmir" is the word which brings a substantial amount of votes in pakistani politics means they will do anything to divert pakistani junta's attention either by going on international forum or using proxy war to get support. as long as strong sentiment about kashmir remains in the minds of pakistani people we will never achieve peace which is our ultimate goal ,not just taking out the "disputed matter" from some 50 year old list
we should be more concerned about solving this matter as soon as possible at least for our sake because maintaining status quo costing us money and give us a troubled state. actually we need another dictator in Pakistan who is like mushraff, who can take decisive step , go out of the box because a civilian government can not make a decision out of the box in fear of loosing vote bank.


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## Hafizzz

> Police to investigate Roy over Kashmir remarks
> Police to investigate Roy over Kashmir remarks - Yahoo! News
> 
> NEW DELHI (Reuters)  An court ordered police on Saturday to investigate whether award-winning author Arundhati Roy could be tried for sedition over her comments about Kashmir.
> 
> In an appeal to a local court, Sushil Pandit, a private citizen, accused Roy of sedition for saying that Kashmir was not an integral part of India at a seminar in New Delhi last month.
> 
> "The court decided to instruct the police to register a proper (complaint), investigate the crime and report back by 6th of January," Pandit told reporters.
> 
> Roy, a fierce critic of India's policy in Kashmir, will be investigated alongside hardline Kashmiri leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani and five other people, according to the petitioner's lawyer and police.
> 
> "This is a ploy to distract attention from the real issue," Roy, winner of the 1997 Booker Prize for "The God of Small Things", told CNN-IBN television.
> 
> Police confirmed they had receiced a court order to investigate the case.
> 
> Speaking to Reuters in Kashmir's summer capital, Srinagar, Geelani said he was aware of the case.
> 
> "This is nothing new for me. There are already dozens of cases against me," he said.
> 
> The divided, mostly Muslim Himalayan region of Kashmir is at the heart of hostility between India and Pakistan and was the cause of two of their three wars.
> 
> Violent anti-government protests have swept Kashmir since June, killing more than 110 people.



Roy was just speaking of the truth and yet she is being investigated.

Hello...? Democracy and Freedom of Speech ...where are you ???


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## Capt.Popeye

Karthic Sri said:


> True --- I liked (loved) to see Mirwaiz dumbfounded and not able to answer the questions posed to him by the Kolkatans.
> 
> But one thing I can tell is in the majority of the places the reaction will be the Chandigarh type and justifiably so and only in the small no of places will the reaction be Calcutta-esque.



In that case, it will be a pity. Just takes a little "brain" to put these guys in their place rather than a lot of "brawn". And the beauty of it is that they (Mirwaiz and party) get nothing to complain about it. Works far better.

Think about it; i hope the _sangh-parivar_ does.


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## KS

Capt.Popeye said:


> In that case, it will be a pity. Just takes a little "brain" to put these guys in their place rather than a lot of "brawn". And the beauty of it is that they (Mirwaiz and party) get nothing to complain about it. Works far better.
> 
> Think about it; i hope the _sangh-parivar_ does.



Cmon dude --- It cannot be disputed many of us think with our heart,rather with our brain if someone speakes ill about of India in our face. 

Even if I was in that place along with a piece of my mind, I would have definitely given a piece of my fist .


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## foxbat

^ someone needs to decide if it was truth or not.. They wont leave the certification to Pakistani members of defence.pk.. right ?


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## Ammyy

Hafizzz said:


> Roy was just speaking of the truth and yet she is being investigated.
> 
> Hello...? Democracy and Freedom of Speech ...where are you ???



How many thread you want to made with same news ?????


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## TechLahore

Please stop this nonsense. The UN DOES recognize Kashmir as an unresolved issue. I am posting numerous references from the UN website itself and I am closing the thread. You can buy the propaganda being circulated in the Indian press, but the rest of the world will not. 

If Kashmir is no longer on the UN agenda, what is the UNMOGIP doing in Kashmir along the "LINE OF CONTROL" - NOT INTERNATIONAL BORDER. This is the 2010 document from UNMOGIP showing the deployment map. NOTE THE USE OF WORDS "LINE OF CONTROL". By definition the UN in its own documentation is acknowledging that the BORDER needs to be defined, i.e. the Kashmir issue is NOT resolved.

http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/dpko/unmogip.pdf

India has taken the position in the past also that UN mandate has "expired" and it has turned out to be absolute CRAP. Here is the documentary proof from the UN's own archive:

UNMOGIP Background - United Nations Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan

_In July 1972, India and Pakistan signed an agreement defining a Line of Control in Kashmir which, with minor deviations, followed the same course as the ceasefire line established by the Karachi Agreement in 1949. *India took the position that the mandate of UNMOGIP had lapsed, since it related specifically to the ceasefire line under the Karachi Agreement. Pakistan, however, did not accept this position.*

Given the disagreement between the two parties over UNMOGIP's mandate and functions, *the Secretary-General's position has been that UNMOGIP could be terminated only by a decision of the Security Council. *In the absence of such an agreement, UNMOGIP has been maintained with the same arrangements as established following December 1971 ceasefire. The tasks of UNMOGIP have been to observe, to the extent possible, developments pertaining to the strict observance of the ceasefire of 17 December 1971 and to report thereon to the Secretary-General.

The military authorities of Pakistan have continued to lodge complaints with UNMOGIP about ceasefire violations.* The military authorities of India have lodged no complaints since January 1972 and have restricted the activities of the UN observers on the Indian side of the Line of Control. They have, however, continued to provide accommodation, transport and other facilities to UNMOGIP.*_

As recently as 2006, the UNMOGIP announced its intent to CONTINUE acting as referee over the unresolved Line of Control in Kashmir:

Year in Review 2005
*
UNMOGIP will continue to carry out its mandate and support the efforts of both Governments to continue their dialogue and further the peace process.*

Note above the use of the word "MANDATE". Now see the paragraph I have pasted above this in which India - as per UN official documents - has taken the position that the UNMOGIP mandate has lapsed. The UN has REJECTED this position and the Secretary General has clarified that this can only be done via Security Council resolution. UNTIL India gets a resolution in the Security Council, UNMOGIP mandate will REMAIN.

And here is the NAIL in the coffin of this nonsensical argument being run and rerun in the Indian press. WHAT IS THE UNMOGIP MANDATE? I have already established above via UN official documents that the mandate holds as per the UN and can only be undone via a Security Council resolution. So what IS the UNMOGIP mandate?

Here it is:

_The first team of unarmed military observers, who eventually formed the nucleus of the United Nations Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP), arrived in the mission area in January 1949 to supervise, in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the ceasefire between India and Pakistan; and to assist the Military Adviser to the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan (UNCIP), *established in 1948 by Security Council resolutions 39 (1948) and 47 (1948) .*_

UNMOGIP Mandate - United Nations Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan

YES SIRS. The UNMOGIP mandate, which is being held by the UN to be valid in 2010, is BASED ON Resolutions 39 and 47. What are these resolutions?

Here is resolution 47: http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc21apr48.htm
_
Recommends to the Governments of India and Pakistan the following measures as those which in the opinion of the Council and appropriate to bring about a cessation of the fighting and to *create proper conditions for a free and impartial plebiscite to decide whether the State of Jammu and Kashmir is to accede to India or Pakistan.*_

SO my friends, Kashmir is very much a valid, current and real issue. I have only used OFFICIAL UN documents above, in which the latest is dated 2010. So now lets stop playing these bull$hit games based on crappy reports in the Indian press. Acknowledge that this is an international issue and a powder keg at that. Playing these games and claiming procedural loopholes to show that Kashmir is off the UN agenda is very childish, at best. How is the UN justifying UNMOGIP deployment - real expenses - on a dead issue? Whoever buys into these stories is being taken for a monumental ride.

Talk about the real issue, don't post nonsensical articles unsupported by reality.

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## Capt.Popeye

Karthic Sri said:


> Cmon dude --- It cannot be disputed many of us think with our heart,rather with our brain if someone speakes ill about of India in our face.
> 
> Even if I was in that place along with a piece of my mind, I would have definitely given a piece of my fist .



Then my counter-question to you--- What would you have achieved? Demonstrated that you are a strong guy? Anything else that you can think of.
e.g. that you are a thinking guy; an intelligent guy?
May be a piece of your mind can do far more than a piece of your fist.
Don't believe me--- ask Narayana Murthy or even Gen. Shankar Roy Chaudhury.

Rest is upto you.

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## TechLahore

Also, if there were ever any further doubts, here is the transcript of the official UN press conference from 16th November 2010. Here is the relevant question and answer:

_Question: On this question of Kashmir, the clarification that you had issued yesterday about *the misconception that the Indians are basically saying that the Kashmir situation was somehow deleted from the agenda of the Security Council.* Now, in the clarification, you say that was always there and until 2007 something happened. What was it that you basically were referring to?

Acting Deputy Spokesperson: *There was a bit of a mistaken impression by some press about this; where some people wrote articles thinking that something had been dropped from the Security Council agenda.* The authors of these articles might have picked up the most recent addendum to the summary statement of matters on which the Security Council is seized. And that summary statement publishes only the list of matters which have been considered in a formal meeting since 1 January 2007. * What they missed in that addendum was a paragraph explaining that the full list appears in Add.9 of March 2010. And that document has a list that continues to include all the agenda items, including Kashmir, which the Council has taken up. And so, by a decision of the Council, Kashmir remains on the list for this year. * But, like I said, that list is referred to in a different document, which is to say Add.9 of March 2010, not the one that they were referring to from a couple of weeks back.
_

Daily Press Briefing by the Office of the Spokesperson for the Secretary-General

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## Jackdaws

Pagla Dashu said:


> Ms Roy is good, but not good enough. When Mr Nehru had made those comments, Kashmir was still not _constitutionally_ part of India. Kashmir became so on *26 January, 1957*. Earlier, on *15 February, 1954*, the constituent assembly of Jammu and Kashmir had vetted the accession of Kashmir with India. So Mr Nehru was not being seditious when he made those comments in 1952.
> 
> Really, Ms Roy is turning out to be a fine caricature.



Unless one questions whether _constitutionally_ the Govt. of India and the elected Govt. of J&K could do that. Tomorrow if Raj Thackeray comes to power in Maharashtra and passes a motion declaring the independence of Maharashtra - would the Indian Govt. be like "sure - as elected reps you can do that." Kashmir was and is _de facto_ part of India but was it and is it _dejure_ part of India?

For the record, I firmly believe that _*airing*_ and _*holding*_ seditious views is the right of every citizen in a free country if he or she is dissatisfied with his or her government. On the other hand, *acting* upon those views would be constitutionally wrong and thus liable for prosecution.

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## KS

Capt.Popeye said:


> Then my counter-question to you--- What would you have achieved? Demonstrated that you are a strong guy? Anything else that you can think of.
> e.g. that you are a thinking guy; an intelligent guy?
> May be a piece of your mind can do far more than a piece of your fist.
> Don't believe me--- ask Narayana Murthy or even Gen. Shankar Roy Chaudhury.
> 
> Rest is upto you.



I am not out there to prove anything --- Just that I dont like someone bitching about my country after filling his tummy with the tax money an average Indian pays and that average Indian includes me as well. As simple as that.You can call me a fanatic/fundamentalist/fool or anything that satisfies you . But the fact is that *I am a bit touchy when it comes to my country* and I will not hesitate in showing it.

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## ajtr

Arundhati thinks she is nehru......................


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## desioptimist

I think she is free to express her views. Also the sedition charge is more of a lower court initiative that GOI.

I think we have matured as a democracy, and should not be afraid if somebody is airing her personal views, no matter how wrong it seems to us.


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## grace

should have ignored her .... attention seeking w***e was just waiting for it ......


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## Syed TALHA SHAH

KASHMIR will get his independence one day INSHAALLAH

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## twoplustwoisfour

grace said:


> should have ignored her .... *attention seeking w***e* was just waiting for it ......



Dude, don't get personal. Ridicule her message if you like, but don't abuse.

i find her to be an extremely eloquent person and having read her books, I completely understand why she got the Booker prize.


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## Ammyy

Syed TALHA SHAH said:


> KASHMIR will get his independence one day INSHAALLAH



I think you reffing to azad kashmir 

Yes defenatally it become azad one day for sure .... inshaallah


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## Subramanian

Capt.Popeye said:


> In that case, it will be a pity. Just takes a little "brain" to put these guys in their place rather than a lot of "brawn". And the beauty of it is that they (Mirwaiz and party) get nothing to complain about it. Works far better.
> 
> Think about it; i hope the _sangh-parivar_ does.



i dont disagree with you but in this situation everyone knows we have exhausted our brains to the hilt,the show of heart is also necessary.

if the govt wants to handle the situation by not doing anything,i hope they are prepared for combat when the situation gets over the edge.


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## EgO Boy

Pagla Dashu said:


> Ms Roy is good, but not good enough. When Mr Nehru had made those comments, Kashmir was still not _constitutionally_ part of India. Kashmir became so on *26 January, 1957*. Earlier, on *15 February, 1954*, the constituent assembly of Jammu and Kashmir had vetted the accession of Kashmir with India. So Mr Nehru was not being seditious when he made those comments in 1952.
> 
> Really, Ms Roy is turning out to be a fine caricature.




Do you think Real kashmiri's will give a thought to contitution of india. Go and check the writings on the walls of ur so called " integral part ".


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## desioptimist

RSS may not be a terrorist organization, but the value system it projects is not for a secular democracy, but more for a hindu supremacy.
I was in RSS, when I was very young(mostly because they did physical exercise in the morning in a park which I used to visit), but did not have the knowledge and information to understand that they are wrong.

When a RSS sympathizer attacks everybody else calling names, I understand their anger as well. I am not saying they are evil, mostly due to lack of proper education.

I think, most of their support base is lower middle class, who are basically angry about everything.
About the positive aspects of RSS, I can only think of, is stopping the minority appeasement policies of Govt( of all parties)and treating them as vote bank.(which was bad for all Indians).

To pakistani members, do you have a similar right wing organization in Pak? How large is their support base?


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## Coltsfan

Syed TALHA SHAH said:


> KASHMIR will get *his *independence one day INSHAALLAH



Seems like Kashmir is a friend of your that has been captured/arrested.

If that is case I join you in praying for *his *independence

Mashallah


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## KS

IndianOptimist said:


> 1) RSS may not be a terrorist organization, but the value system it projects is not for a secular democracy, but more for a hindu supremacy.
> I was in RSS, when I was very young(mostly because they did physical exercise in the morning in a park which I used to visit), but did not have the knowledge and information to understand that they are wrong.
> 
> 2)When a RSS sympathizer attacks everybody else calling names, I understand their anger as well. I am not saying they are evil, mostly due to lack of proper education.
> 
> 3)I think, most of their support base is lower middle class, who are basically angry about everything.
> 
> 4)About the positive aspects of RSS, I can only think of, is stopping the minority appeasement policies of Govt( of all parties)and treating them as vote bank.(which was bad for all Indians).



The answer for your 1st and 2nd parts is the 4 th one. 
There is naturally some anger among the masses when the Govt appears too pro-minority at the cost of the Majority while still espousing the world "Secularism" profusely.

How many of us here are ready to accept the fact that the true meaning of the word "Secularism" has been distorted beyond recognition to favour the Vote bank politics of certain of our political parties ?

Yes RSS by their objective are a Nationalist party and hence they are naturally expected to be a bit right on the idealogical divide.But if we Indians are ever ready to embrace the Leftists why shun the right ?

I challenge you to show one,just one, modern RSS leader who has said Muslims/Christians are not Indians and only hindus are Indians.
Though it wouldnt surprise me a bit that many even many educated Indians think _that the RSS holds such a view_.All heil our English media ,a past master in demonising RSS.

Also the support base of the RSS cuts across caste and economic barriers -- not necessarily the lower middle class.

*PS:*I am going too much offtopic.But whats the big deal in Pakistanis criticising RSS when even many Indians have too many mis-conceptions about the RSS.

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## sameer-abc

Arundhati roy (Indian Casandra) is said to have left home at 16 to live in a squatters colony in Delhi, earning a living collecting beer bottles. Our Lady of Recycling, who ended up in prison. She was given a three month jail sentence for obstructing the builders. Gandhi-like, she went to jailthen slunk out after 24 hours, opting to pay a 75-rupee ($1.50) fine rather than show solidarity with the humble prisoners. It seems she found an Indian prison much less spiritual than she had imagined. Rather dirty, in fact. 24 hours was just time enough to be photographed behind bars, looking fierce and defiant; after that there was no point in staying in such an unsanitary place.


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## Subramanian

IndianOptimist said:


> RSS may not be a terrorist organization, but the value system it projects is not for a secular democracy, but more for a hindu supremacy.
> I was in RSS, when I was very young(mostly because they did physical exercise in the morning in a park which I used to visit), but did not have the knowledge and information to understand that they are wrong.
> 
> When a RSS sympathizer attacks everybody else calling names, I understand their anger as well. I am not saying they are evil, mostly due to lack of proper education.
> 
> I think, most of their support base is lower middle class, who are basically angry about everything.
> About the positive aspects of RSS, I can only think of, is stopping the minority appeasement policies of Govt( of all parties)and treating them as vote bank.(which was bad for all Indians).
> 
> To pakistani members, do you have a similar right wing organization in Pak? How large is their support base?




RSS has support amongst everyone.I know a lot of IITians and IIM guys who get to shakas.

Only the ones who are brainwashed by media and history textbooks think otherwise.

RSS sympathiser is essentially right wing and he attacks only those who dont put the nation's interests above other things.Infact it is he who gets called all sorts of ****.

The RW organization of pakistan is their army.


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## jha

I dont mind..Charge Nehru with Sedition IF that is the sole prerequisite ...
Never liked Nehru for his over idealistic nature....Ruined the fate of my country ..


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## Bhushan

*Arundhati*

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## CaptainJackSparrow

Coltsfan said:


> Seems like Kashmir is a friend of your that has been captured/arrested.
> 
> If that is case I join you in praying for *his *independence
> 
> Mashallah



I think he means country of so-called Azad Kashmir will get real independence from Pakistan. Inshallah.

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## twoplustwoisfour

EgO Boy said:


> Do you think Real kashmiri's will give a thought to contitution of india. Go and check the writings on the walls of ur so called " integral part ".



As far as i know, Arundhati Roy is still an Indian Citizen and resident. So SHE should think of the Indian Constitution and Indian courts.


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## Coltsfan

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> I think he means country of so-called Azad Kashmir will get real independence from Pakistan. Inshallah.



Ahhh okay, my bad...... in that case... Inshallah, upar wala aapki maraad jald poori kare

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## CaptainJackSparrow

Two Hizb ********* killed at Doda, J&K

Two Hizbul Mujahideen ********* were killed in a fierce gunbattle between ********* and security forces in Jammu and Kashmir's Doda district today.

The *********, identified as Touseef and Imran, were killed during searches conducted by a team of Rashtriya Rifles and police in Tandla forest belt at Gandoh.

Acting on a tip-off that two Hizb ********* were hiding in a rock cave, security forces raided the place, police said.

When they zeroed in on the hideout, ********* fired at the security forces, triggering a gunbattle in which both the ********* were killed, they said.

An LMG was recovered from the scene, police said adding the ********* also fired grenades from their rifles. 

**


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## Coltsfan

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Two Hizb ********* killed at Doda, J&K
> 
> Two Hizbul Mujahideen ********* were killed in a fierce gunbattle between ********* and security forces in Jammu and Kashmir's Doda district today.
> 
> The *********, identified as Touseef and Imran, were killed during searches conducted by a team of Rashtriya Rifles and police in Tandla forest belt at Gandoh.
> 
> Acting on a tip-off that two Hizb ********* were hiding in a rock cave, security forces raided the place, police said.
> 
> When they zeroed in on the hideout, ********* fired at the security forces, triggering a gunbattle in which both the ********* were killed, they said.
> 
> An LMG was recovered from the scene, police said adding the ********* also fired grenades from their rifles.
> 
> Two Hizb militants killed at Doda, J&K- TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos
> 
> **




Why is m ilitant showing as * on here? is it considered a bad word?

Desh ke gaddaron ko, goli maaro saalon ko


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Coltsfan said:


> Why is m ilitant showing as * on here? is it considered a bad word?
> 
> Desh ke gaddaron ko, goli maaro saalon ko



In accordance with forum's latest policy of libel I chose to put asterisks instead of the word. In fact that is why I did not post the source link.

*SMAJHDAAR KO ISHAARA KAAFI HAI ​*


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## Paan Singh

so "militants" are banned everywhere


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## ARCHON

********* are ********* no matter what. If the army has seen a ********* in *** then the ********* should join with other ********* so that no other ********* doesnt do what ********* are doing in *********.

OMG.. i see stars everywhere. 

******************

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## CaptainJackSparrow

ARCHON said:


> ********* are ********* no matter what. If the army has seen a ********* in *** then the ********* should join with other ********* so that no other ********* doesnt do what ********* are doing in *********.
> 
> OMG.. i see stars everywhere.





Keh bhi diya aur nahin bhi kaha!

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## Paan Singh

ARCHON said:


> ********* are ********* no matter what. If the army has seen a ********* in *** then the ********* should join with other ********* so that no other ********* doesnt do what ********* are doing in *********.




oh man
u broke the law


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## ARCHON

Prism said:


> oh man
> u broke the law



Well its just stars i typed. 

***************************************************************​

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## Coltsfan

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> In accordance with forum's latest policy of libel I chose to put asterisks instead of the word. In fact that is why I did not post the source link.
> 
> *SMAJHDAAR KO ISHAARA KAAFI HAI ​*



LOL you actually put some effort in it..... kudos Captain

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## Alphatech

I don't really understand what the Hurriyat thinks they can achieve by these public rallies. They are preaching to the wrong crowd; no matter where they go in India, no one will pay the slightest attention to what they are saying. It would be the same as Omar Abdulla marching through Pakistan and telling people that Pakistani Occupied Kashmir should be returned to India. 

As for the attacks and BJP protests; even if many people might publicly denounce it, we all know that privately people would say "serves them right". And even if, like some people suggest, the hurriyat leaders get gravely injured or even assassinated, it wouldn't really bother the average Indian. There might be quite a few shows of support and condemnation of the attackers, but at the end of the day, it would be a good riddance as far as most people would be concerned. I am certainly not advocating any sort of violence against these individuals, but we must remember that "*One man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist*". And by that same logic, for those who see him as a terrorist, these attacks are not only justified but also quite short of what he actually deserves. Just a thought....


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## Spring Onion

*Indian troops martyr two more innocent youth in Kupwara
*
In occupied Kashmir, Indian troops, in their fresh act of state terrorism, martyred two more innocent Kashmiri youth in Kupwara district.
According to KMS, troops of 6 para regiment and 21 Rashtriya Rifles during a violent military operation killed the youth at Mooldari Gali in Handwara area of the district. The operation was still on in the area till last reports came in.
Meanwhile, Indian police arrested a youth, Tanvir Ahmad Butt from Humhama in Budgam and lodged him at Humhama police station.


Indian troops martyr two more innocent youth in Kupwara | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## Paan Singh

i salute your speed of journalism.
*btw army dont need operation against the locals.*
ur report speak self.
they are something else


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## Coltsfan

Jana said:


> *Indian troops martyr two more innocent youth in Kupwara
> *
> In occupied Kashmir, Indian troops, in their fresh act of state terrorism, martyred two more innocent Kashmiri youth in Kupwara district.
> According to KMS, troops of 6 para regiment and 21 Rashtriya Rifles during a violent military operation killed the youth at Mooldari Gali in Handwara area of the district. The operation was still on in the area till last reports came in.
> *Meanwhile, Indian police arrested a youth, Tanvir Ahmad Butt from Humhama in Budgam and lodged him at Humhama police station.*
> 
> 
> Indian troops martyr two more innocent youth in Kupwara | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online



Obviously the two youths were killed by Tanvir Ahmad Butt and he has been arrested by the Police, hopefully he will be prosecuted and jailed for killing his 2 friends.

Good detective work by cops and bringing the culprit to justice in such a timely fashion......

Thanks to Jana for reporting this excellent news

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## Bhim

Just like 26/11 there were serious unforeseen side effects,which is causing much discomfort to the perpetrators/organizers of the deadly attack. 
Similarly this Public relations venture by Hurriyat would eventually spill the beans of the real people in charge. I think they should be allowed to engage as much as possible with the public.


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## Yeti

Free speech is a right for any individual but what you say and where you say it could have consequences.


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## Spring Onion

Coltsfan said:


> Obviously the two youths were killed by Tanvir Ahmad Butt and he has been arrested by the Police, hopefully he will be prosecuted and jailed for killing his 2 friends.
> 
> Good detective work by cops and bringing the culprit to justice in such a timely fashion....
> 
> Thanks to Jana for reporting this excellent news



Killing of Kashmiri youth by Indians is not a new thing. The indian army had been killing innocent Kashmiris since long.

fake encounters by Indian forces/paid goons is not a new thing and had been reported widely.

Its the modus operandi of Indian forces to pick Kashmiri youth and then kill them in fake encounter.

I am sure these two young boys will also be killed by Indians


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## Coltsfan

Jana said:


> Killing of Kashmiri youth by Indians is not a new thing. The indian army had been killing innocent Kashmiris since long.
> 
> fake encounters by Indian forces/paid goons is not a new thing and had been reported widely.
> 
> Its the modus operandi of Indian forces to pick Kashmiri youth and then kill them in fake encounter.
> 
> I am sure these two young boys will also be killed by Indians



Fake encounters are very effective.

They had been used in Punjab in the 90s very effectively and achieved good results.

I would not be averse to Indian forces using fake encounters of terrorists instead of arresting them. 

PS: I think a saw a video of Pakistani Army executing militants, so fake encounters are not something unique to India

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## Ammyy

Jana said:


> Killing of Kashmiri youth by Indians is not a new thing. The indian army had been killing innocent Kashmiris since long.
> 
> fake encounters by Indian forces/paid goons is not a new thing and had been reported widely.
> 
> Its the modus operandi of Indian forces to pick Kashmiri youth and then kill them in fake encounter.
> 
> *I am sure these two young boys will also be killed by Indians*



So you assume that they are killed by IA ????????

No words for you last line

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## riju78

Jana said:


> Killing of Kashmiri youth by Indians is not a new thing. The indian army had been killing innocent Kashmiris since long.
> 
> fake encounters by Indian forces/paid goons is not a new thing and had been reported widely.
> 
> Its the modus operandi of Indian forces to pick Kashmiri youth and then kill them in fake encounter.
> 
> *I am sure these two young boys will also be killed by Indians*



can u please enlighten us how u predicted this???


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## Coltsfan

DRDO said:


> So you assume that they are killed by IA ????????
> 
> No words for you last line



Damn, I did not notice that.

Jana jee, you gotta say something to that?


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## KS

Alphatech said:


> I don't really understand what the Hurriyat thinks they can achieve by these public rallies. They are preaching to the wrong crowd; *no matter where they go in India, no one will pay the slightest attention to what they are saying. *It would be the same as Omar Abdulla marching through Pakistan and telling people that Pakistani Occupied Kashmir should be returned to India.
> 
> As for the attacks and BJP protests; *even if many people might publicly denounce it, we all know that privately people would say "serves them right".* *And even if, like some people suggest, the hurriyat leaders get gravely injured or even assassinated, it wouldn't really bother the average Indian.* There might be quite a few shows of support and condemnation of the attackers, but at the end of the day, it would be a good riddance as far as most people would be concerned. I am certainly not advocating any sort of violence against these individuals, but we must remember that "*One man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist*". And by that same logic, *for those who see him as a terrorist, these attacks are not only justified* but also quite short of what he actually deserves. Just a thought....



Succinctly put !

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## WAR-rior

Coltsfan said:


> Damn, I did not notice that.
> 
> Jana jee, you gotta say something to that?



janajee is a good journalist...... alas, kashmir is a dope......it brings us both india and pakistan out of our senses........maaaan !

EMOTIONAL ATYAACHAAR !


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## abrahams

haaa... the nation . pak.... show a neutral source... or else it didnt happen...


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## Joe Shearer

Subramanian said:


> RSS has support amongst everyone.I know a lot of IITians and IIM guys who get to shakas.



Is this a criterion for determining excellence, or for determining who has the right views on social issues?



Subramanian said:


> Only the ones who are brainwashed by media and history textbooks think otherwise.



In case you have not noticed, the bulk of IIT and IIM students have studied science in school, and technology in undergraduate studies, hence have no clue about historical issues.



Subramanian said:


> RSS sympathiser is essentially right wing and he attacks only those who dont put the nation's interests above other things.Infact it is he who gets called all sorts of ****.
> 
> The RW organization of pakistan is their army.



Presumably by analogy, all others are the opposite, ie, left wing.

In which case, there is a decided balance in favour of the left wing in Indian politics. Particularly so in the state of Bihar, for instance, where caste-based and exclusivist politics has been put into the rubbish bin, and economics and development politics is obviously in favour. What do you think is going to happen to the RSS/BJP/Sangh Parivar brand of exclusionist politics in future? 

You mentioned that this so-called right wing puts India first, and only attacks those that don't put the nation's interests first.

Don't you find that sentence of yours both naive and self-serving, at one and the same time? 

Who, for instance, has given members of this alleged right-wing the authority to decide what is good and bad for Indian politics, and for the Indian state, or the people of India? 

The answer, unfortunately, is that they, the Sangh Parivar, have appointed themselves to be the guardians of Indian thinking, understanding of history and sociology, current morals and behaviour in public, relations between religions and castes and between religions and tribes.

But who authorised them? And why do they persist in breaking the law of the land? We must question both the authority and the delegated powers under that authority to discover what it is that leads to such seditious behaviour on the part of the RSS - flagrantly disregarding the law of the land. The latest incident being the row at the entrance to the venue where the Mirwaiz was due to speak. It just was unpleasant; no points were raised, none were answered. If the entire meeting had gone on like that, it would have been a disaster. 

Fortunately, actual, bona-fide participants, like the ex-Chief, managed the situation well after the thugs had been dragged away. When faced with facts and logic, the Mirwaiz drooped and faded.

The *only* legitimate authority that can be given by the people and the state of India is to those who are elected to be representatives, at state level or at national level. Period. Others can express an opinion on whether this, that or some policy is good or bad for the nation, but they do not hold a monopoly of wisdom. So not only they, but those who wish to oppose them are free to say what they please.

It is difficult not to point out that if the Sangh Parivar's point of view, developed entirely by themselves, and not adopted universally in the nation, is to be heard peacefully, so too should nuisances like Arundhati Roy enjoy their right to express their point of view.

As Voltaire is wrongly reputed to have said, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". 

The Sangh Parivar has a long way to go to get to the standards of the 18th century.

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## Last Hope

I would be surprised if the youth were Muslims.

I wasnt surprised either seeing this news.
Its a routine now.
The militants in the IA Uniforms must be taken strict action from UN.


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## MYSTIC

foxbat said:


> Most Indians of this generations dont treat Pakistanis as brothers. Certainly not of the TTP variety..



Have you ever stepped outside India or personally known Pakistanis. Outside our respective country we greet each other well.


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## vandemataram

Karthic Sri said:


> Nehru was a die-hard idealist who thought the solution to the world's peace lay at the doorsteps of the UN while Ms.Suzanne Arundati Roy is just another bleeding heart liberal cum anarchist who seeks to lay her hand ultimately on the Nobel.
> 
> No comparison whatsoever.
> 
> *PS:* I dont know what she is thinking nowadays.First she alienated the BJP and now she is rubbing the Congressis the wrong way.She seems to forget Congressis are a much more violent lot than the BJP and touchy with the issues concerning Nehru-Gandhi family



Members please excuse me.

I am going to go a bit off topic.

Suzanna Arundhati Roy is a an anti-Hindu and a Hindu baiter. She is a crossover between a Bengali father and a Christian mother.

Now can the members tell me certain things about her please?.

a) Why does she not sign off as Suzanna Arundhati Roy? Is this a deliberate attempt at hiding her true identity of not being amongst one of India's majority community? Does this server her any purpose?

b) I have long surmised about her political leanings. Going by what she thinks, writes and speaks, she isnt much different from D Raja, Brinda, Barkha and Sagarika or for that matter Sitaram.

At the same time she is an anti Indian bigot who actually thinks about balkanising India. So is she also antagonistic to Congress and the Leftists?

Comments welcome,.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

vandemataram said:


> Members please excuse me.
> 
> I am going to go a bit off topic.
> 
> Suzanna Arundhati Roy is a an anti-Hindu and a Hindu baiter. She is a crossover between a Bengali father and a Christian mother.
> 
> Now can the members tell me certain things about her please?.
> 
> a) Why does she not sign off as Suzanna Arundhati Roy? Is this a deliberate attempt at hiding her true identity of not being amongst one of India's majority community? Does this server her any purpose?
> 
> b) I have long surmised about her political leanings. Going by what she thinks, writes and speaks, she isnt much different from D Raja, Brinda, Barkha and Sagarika or for that matter Sitaram.
> 
> At the same time she is an anti Indian bigot who actually thinks about balkanising India. So is she also antagonistic to Congress and the Leftists?
> 
> Comments welcome,.



How does her being Anti-Hindu explain her being Anti-India?


----------



## KS

Joe Shearer said:


> Presumably by analogy, all others are the opposite, ie, left wing.
> 
> In which case, there is a decided balance in favour of the left wing in Indian politics. Particularly so in the state of Bihar, for instance, where caste-based and exclusivist politics has been put into the rubbish bin, and economics and development politics is obviously in favour. What do you think is going to happen to the RSS/BJP/Sangh Parivar brand of exclusionist politics in future?
> 
> You mentioned that this so-called right wing puts India first, and only attacks those that don't put the nation's interests first.
> 
> Don't you find that sentence of yours both naive and self-serving, at one and the same time?
> 
> Who, for instance, has given members of this alleged right-wing the authority to decide what is good and bad for Indian politics, and for the Indian state, or the people of India?
> 
> The answer, unfortunately, is that they, the Sangh Parivar, have appointed themselves to be the guardians of Indian thinking, understanding of history and sociology, current morals and behaviour in public, relations between religions and castes and between religions and tribes.
> 
> But who authorised them? And why do they persist in breaking the law of the land? We must question both the authority and the delegated powers under that authority to discover what it is that leads to such seditious behaviour on the part of the RSS - flagrantly disregarding the law of the land. The latest incident being the row at the entrance to the venue where the Mirwaiz was due to speak. It just was unpleasant; no points were raised, none were answered. If the entire meeting had gone on like that, it would have been a disaster.
> 
> Fortunately, actual, bona-fide participants, like the ex-Chief, managed the situation well after the thugs had been dragged away. When faced with facts and logic, the Mirwaiz drooped and faded.
> 
> The *only* legitimate authority that can be given by the people and the state of India is to those who are elected to be representatives, at state level or at national level. Period. Others can express an opinion on whether this, that or some policy is good or bad for the nation, but they do not hold a monopoly of wisdom. So not only they, but those who wish to oppose them are free to say what they please.
> 
> It is difficult not to point out that if the Sangh Parivar's point of view, developed entirely by themselves, and not adopted universally in the nation, is to be heard peacefully, so too should nuisances like Arundhati Roy enjoy their right to express their point of view.
> 
> As Voltaire is wrongly reputed to have said, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
> 
> The Sangh Parivar has a long way to go to get to the standards of the 18th century.





> Sikhs getting slaughered in thousands = A MISTAKE.
> Hindus pandits getting killed in Kashmir = Political problem.
> Poor protestors getting shot in WB under Left Govt = Misunderstanding.
> But,Muslims getting killed by a few hundred = Holocaust/Pogrom/Genocide.
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Banning Parzania in Gujarat = Communal.
> Banning Da Vinci Code and Jo Bole So Nihaal = Secular.
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Reservations in every school and college on caste lines = Secular. Reservations in Minority institutions = Communal.
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Fake encounters in Gujarat [Sohrabuddin] = BJP Communalism.
> Fake encounters under Cong-NCP in Maharashtra [Khwaja Younus] = Police atrocity.
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Talking about Hindus and Hinduism appeasment = Communal.
> Talking about Muslims,Christians and Islam = Secular.
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Not hanging Afzal Guru the mastermind despite Supreme Court orders = Humanity and Political dilemma/May affect Muslim sentiments
> ----------------------------------------------------
> BJP questioning Islam = Communal.
> Congress/Historians questioning Lord Ram's existance = Clerical Error.
> ----------------------------------------------------
> The man who said "When a big tree falls the ground beneath it shakes" is honored with his name being used for every new airport,stadium,sea link etc.
> 
> The man who was the CM during the Guj riots is a modern incarnation of Hitler.
> ----------------------------------------------------
> While every Human rights activist/political party worth his saly fights for Muslim victims of th Guj riots , no one cares for the 58 Karsevaks killed intially and the 250 killed later in the riots by the Mulsim mobs.
> -----------------------------------------------------
> While a bomb blast in which a fringe group is among the suspects,it gets dubbed as "Hindu Terror" while in the case of its much famous cousin it becomes "Terrorism has no religion" and "innocent muslim youths are victimised"
> ------------------------------------------------------
> In a supposedly secular society Mulsims are given subsidy to go for Hajj ; while Hindus going to Amarnath Yatra are not even allotted proper land
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Supreme court orders in the Shah Bano case subverted to maintain Muslim sentiments
> But Allahabad court verdict for Ayodhya questioned as faith cannot determine law
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> M.H Hussain drawing Godess Saraswati nude = Freedom of free speech
> But Danish cartoon activist should be condemned as it hurts Muslim sentiments
> .



When such conditions are widespread how can one blame the the RSS/Sangh Parivar alone for all the ills in the society.

Correct these above conditions and deny the oxygen that makes these groups relevant.Unless and until that is done don't blame RSS and its supporters.

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## punit

> Re: Charge Nehru with sedition, Arundhati tells Delhi



lol some one should arrange a meeting b/w Arundhati roy and Late Nehru . better issue a warrant and send Ms Roy to deliver it to Pt.Nehru


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## WAR-rior

proudpakistanistudent said:


> I would be surprised if the youth were Muslims.
> 
> I wasnt surprised either seeing this news.
> Its a routine now.
> The militants in the IA Uniforms must be taken strict action from UN.



ATB.


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## Coltsfan

proudpakistanistudent said:


> I would be surprised if the youth were Muslims.
> 
> I wasnt surprised either seeing this news.
> Its a routine now.
> *The militants in the IA Uniforms must be taken strict action from UN.*



Haven't you heard the news? UN has nothing to do with Kashmir anymore, they got tired of Pakistan's incessant whining at every opportunity and have asked them to sort it out directly with India without dragging them in it anymore.

Very soon OIC is going to do the same....... inshallah...

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## foxbat

Two militants killed in J&K encounter

Srinagar: Two militants were killed in a fierce encounter with the security personnel in Jammu and Kashmir's Kishtwar district on Sunday.

According to reports, the militants belonged to Hizbul Mujahideen.

Security personnel have recovered a pistol from the militants killed.

Read more at: Two militants killed in J&K encounter


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## BATMAN

Coltsfan said:


> Haven't you heard the news? UN has nothing to do with Kashmir anymore, they got tired of Pakistan's incessant whining at every opportunity and have asked them to sort it out directly with India without dragging them in it anymore.
> 
> Very soon OIC is going to do the same....... inshallah...



And this gives you licence to kill?

Fake encounters are not limited to Occupied Kashmir, Muslims are being killed in Punjab, Gujrat, Hyderabad, Kerala etc.
Christians villages are being burned down, nuns are being raped and pastors are paraded naked.

UN is unfair organisation and injustice cannot resolve issues.


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## Coltsfan

BATMAN said:


> And this gives you licence to kill?
> 
> Fake encounters are not limited to Kashmir.
> 
> UN is unfair organisation and injustice cannot resolve issues.



Exactly, therefore outside forces should stop intervening in what is a strictly internal strife of India.

How India takes care of that is our concern


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## BATMAN

foxbat said:


> Walls are closing in on Ms Roy. She should have stuck with Maoists since they have a section of sympathisers, but with J&K, she has bitten off more than she can chew..



Are you going to shoot her or implicit her for no apparent offence?


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## twoplustwoisfour

BATMAN said:


> Are you going to shoot her or implicit her for *no apparent offence*?



No apparent offence? really? Come on. I expect an elite member to have that much common sense.


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## Ganguly

*&#8216;Sweet&#8217; city shows it can be blunt too *
The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Frontpage | &#145;Sweet&#146; city shows it can be blunt too

Calcutta, Nov. 28: Moderate Hurriyat chief Mirwaiz Umer Farooq today had a chance to enjoy Calcutta&#8217;s famous sweets but not perhaps another of the city&#8217;s vaunted trademarks: tolerance for dissent. 

At a seminar at the Academy of Fine Arts, speaker after speaker from diverse backgrounds rounded on the separatist after he denied that Kashmir was a part of India and argued for the azaadi cause.

The critics included retired army chief and former Rajya Sabha member General Shankar Roychowdhury, ex-mayor Bikash Ranjan Bhattacharyya, businessman Sishir Bajoria and IIM Calcutta professor Surendra Munshi. 

Asked by Roychowdhury if he considered Kashmir a part of India, the Mirwaiz said: &#8220;No, Kashmir is disputed land.&#8221;

It evoked a strong reaction, appearing to unite his fellow panellists at the discussion &#8220;Kashmir &#8212; The Way Out&#8221;, organised by a city NGO, the Centre for Peace and Progress.

&#8220;No part of Jammu and Kashmir will be allowed to secede. Staying within India, within the framework of the Constitution, ask for anything,&#8221; Roychowdhury said. He accused the Hurriyat of provoking innocents into joining street protests, causing 115 deaths since June 2010.
&#8220;Can he (the Mirwaiz) name a single Hurriyat leader attacked in these protests? Pakistan is funding this. They want revenge for Bangladesh,&#8221; an agitated Roychowdhury said as the Mirwaiz fixed his gaze on the ceiling.
If the general&#8217;s attack was frontal, the lawyer Bhattacharyya questioned the rationale behind the azaadi demand. &#8220;You clearly say you do not want development or peace&#8230;. The only thing you want is so-called freedom. Are you living in a colonised state?&#8221;
*The Hurriyat chief, who was accompanied by fellow Kashmiri leader Bilal Lone, had earlier said: &#8220;The core issue... is not development, not economic packages, not peace. It&#8217;s the sentiment of azaadi.&#8221;*
When the Mirwaiz was leaving the venue, a small group of waiting BJP youth activists threw an egg at his car but missed. Police said 22 people were arrested.

Later in the afternoon, as he set off to check out the sweets of Calcutta, the Mirwaiz told The Telegraph he had found the concerted criticism &#8220;extremely unfortunate&#8221;.

Asked if he had expected this of Calcutta&#8217;s civil society, he said: &#8220;People in Calcutta, I would like to believe, are humanists and democrats.&#8221;

It&#8217;s possible the opinions heard today were a reflection of the popular mood prevailing since 26/11, heightened by Pakistan&#8217;s inaction against the plotters and the recent pro-azaadi comments by author Arundhati Roy. The Mirwaiz and other Kashmiri separatists have recently evoked more violent reactions in Delhi and Chandigarh during tours to explain their stand.

On Thursday, some Kashmiri Pandits had roughed up the Mirwaiz and Lone in Chandigarh. Last month, a Pandit had hurled a shoe at Hurriyat hawk Syed Ali Shah Geelani at a Delhi seminar where he was sitting next to Roy. Yesterday, a Delhi court asked the police to file an FIR for sedition against Roy and Geelani.

&#8220;I strongly condemn the action against Roy,&#8221; the Mirwaiz said today. &#8220;It is time for India to get out of this denial mode.&#8221;

But his fellow panellists at the seminar contended that it was the separatists who were in &#8220;denial&#8221;, fomenting unrest with barely a thought for Kashmir&#8217;s poor.


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## Coltsfan

BATMAN said:


> Are you going to shoot her or implicit her for no apparent offence?



I would consider to 'implicit her' if you could explain what it means


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## StingRoy

^^^ Yeh aadmi dar dar bhatak ke laat kyoon khana chahta hai?


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## Fasih Khan

GUNNER said:


> *Charge Nehru with sedition, Arundhati tells Delhi*
> 
> 
> *By Jawed Naqvi*
> 
> 
> *Sunday, 28 Nov, 2010*
> 
> 
> *NEW DELHI, Nov 27:* A Delhi court ordered police on Saturday to file charges against a Kashmiri resistance leader and his Indian supporters who have been accused by the national media of sedition.
> 
> 
> However, writer activist Arundhati Roy, one of the alleged participants in a recent anti-national seminar, *said police should first file sedition charges against Jawaharlal Nehru because the countrys first prime minister believed the Kashmir dispute could only be settled by the people of Kashmir.*
> 
> 
> Delhis Metropolitan Magistrate Navita Kumari Bagga directed the police to lodge an FIR against hardline Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Ms Roy and five others on the charge of sedition for their alleged anti-India speeches.
> 
> 
> Ms Bagga, under pressure from rightwing Hindu petitioners, slammed the police for their prolonged inaction and weird reply that no offence was made out against Mr Geelani and Ms Roy, whose speeches had triggered a nationwide controversy.
> 
> 
> Ms Roy said it was a frivolous case which had sought to shift the focus away from the raging financial scandals that have rocked Prime Minister Manmohan Singhs government. Leading media personalities, some of them questioning her patriotism, were caught in the net of a damaging probe.
> 
> 
> In a press statement, Ms Roy listed a number of occasions when Indias first prime minister had described the Kashmir dispute in a manner which would offend most Indians today. *She urged the police to file an FIR against Mr Nehru posthumously*.
> 
> 
> According to Ms Roy, in his statement in the Indian Constituent Assembly on 25th November, 1947, Mr Nehru said:
> 
> In order to establish our bona fide, we have suggested that when the people are given the chance to decide their future, this should be done under the supervision of an impartial tribunal such as the United Nations Organisation. *The issue in Kashmir is whether violence and naked force should decide the future or the will of the people*.
> 
> 
> In his statement in the Indian Parliament on 7th August, 1952, according to Ms Roy, Mr Nehru said:
> 
> Kashmir is very close to our minds and hearts and if by some decree or adverse fortune, ceases to be a part of India, it will be a wrench and a pain and torment for us. *If, however, the people of Kashmir do not wish to remain with us, let them go by all means. We will not keep them against their will, however painful it may be to us. I want to stress that it is only the people of Kashmir who can decide the future of Kashmir*
> 
> *However sad we may feel about leaving we are not going to stay against the wishes of the people. We are not going to impose ourselves on them on the point of the bayonet.*
> 
> 
> Ms Roy said the Indian government was clearly violating Mr Nehrus pledge by seeking to bludgeon the people of Kashmir into submission.
> 
> 
> 
> DAWN.COM | Front Page | Charge Nehru with sedition, Arundhati tells Delhi



*Only If Indians have had an Iota of Shame left in them so the Above Statement of Ms. Roy is enough to prove India's hollow claims, Wrong over Kashmir.*


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## foxbat

BATMAN said:


> Are you going to shoot her or implicit her for no apparent offence?



Neither. She is simply losing her main weapon by this.. Credibility and backing among the Indian masses. Maoists were fine since they are still Indians with a different political agenda. But with her approach on J&K, she is being quickly moving into the zone of being labled as a Pakistani stooge. Like a Gilani or Mirwaiz. Now they are neither shot nor assasinated in a military operation (unlike some other secessionists a few hundred miles west of Srinagar), but surely have no popularity left in rest of India. And thats where her strength and moolah comes from.

Thats what I mean by walls closing in on her..


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## foxbat

Fasih Khan said:


> *Only If Indians have had an Iota of Shame left in them so the Above Statement of Ms. Roy is enough to prove India's hollow claims, Wrong over Kashmir.*



Do you want me to pull out statements by your esteemed generals and columnists blasting Pakistan's alleged policy of supporting terrorists and its impact on Pakistan's situation. Would that use any iotas of shame in Pakistanis to and change their views about Pakistan's stand on terrorism?

Either contribute with arguements and logic or just listen.. Why spoil the thread with jingoistic statements that have no substance..?


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## Developereo

ares said:


> So by this definition is Raja Farooq Haider Khan (Prime Minister of AJK) a Pakistani stooge and traitor to the people of Kashmir?



The definition would apply only if the people were so rebellious that Pakistan had to station 600,000 troops to contain them.


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## twoplustwoisfour

Developereo said:


> The definition would apply only if the people were so rebellious that Pakistan had to station 600,000 troops to contain them.



Pakistan does not need an army. They have 'non-state actors' to act on their behalf.


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## ares

Developereo said:


> The definition would apply only if the people were so rebellious that Pakistan had to station 600,000 troops to contain them.



Now, are we are suppose to amend present accepted 'definitions', so as not to expose your double standards?


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## KS

Developereo said:


> The definition would apply only if the people were so rebellious that Pakistan had to station 600,000 troops to contain them.



A more convinient and a quiet way than stationing 0.6 million troops is to encourage Pakistanis from other part of Pakistan to settle in Pakistan administered Kashmir and change the demographics to do the same job as 0.6 million Army men are doing on the other side.

*Ps.:*I sincerely want the GoI also to abrogate the stupid Article 370 and go the Pakistan way.


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> I think he means country of so-called Azad Kashmir will get real independence from Pakistan. Inshallah.



azad kashmir is already azad for your kind information .... it is indian occupied kashmir that has to avail freedom yet


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Pakistan is ready for plebiscite in whole of Kashmir under UN, what ever people decisde we will accept it....


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## twoplustwoisfour

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> Pakistan is ready for plebiscite in whole of Kashmir under UN, what ever people decisde we will accept it....



I know it's off topic but still let me humor you. If Pakistan is ready for plebiscite in whole of Kashmir under UN, then why don't they conduct a plebiscite in P O K first? Won't that put pressure on India to give up its territory for plebiscite as well?


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## KS

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> azad kashmir is already azad for your kind information .... it is indian occupied kashmir that has to avail freedom yet





REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> Pakistan is ready for plebiscite in whole of Kashmir under UN, what ever people decisde we will accept it....



Read my signature to get back into reality.


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## riCoh

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> Pakistan is ready for plebiscite in whole of Kashmir under UN, what ever people decisde we will accept it....



since now you are finished with demographic changes in azad kashmir as well as jammu kashmir (referring to pandits), its quite understandable you guys start jumping plebecite plebecite


the first condition of plebecite is remove your forces from kashmir then talk about referandum.


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## Developereo

Whatever Pakistan is doing, the people of Azad Kashmir are not complaining or getting murdered/raped/imprisoned by the thousands.

Perhaps India should try showing a more humane side than killing/raping anyone who dares to disagree.


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## KS

Breaking news coming in ---- Three 'Freedom fighters' relieved of their earthly tenure.

One J&K police man also martyred. May you Rest in Peace . Jai Hind


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## Fasih Khan

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> YouTube - Massive Kashmiri croud shouting long live Pakistan in indian occupied Kashmir



*Jazakum Allah Kher to my Kashmiri Brethern. May Allah Kareem bless you with Azaadi from Bharat and take all your sorrows Off. Ameen. May Allah SWT's Justice come against India. Ameen. Your Beloved Pakistan is always Awaiting you. 

Tehreek-e-Azaadi-e-Kashmir Zindabaad ... *


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## KS

Fasih Khan said:


> *Jazakum Allah Kher to my Kashmiri Brethern. May Allah Kareem bless you with Azaadi from Najees Bharat and take all your sorrows Off. Ameen. May Allah SWT's Justice come against India. Ameen. Your Beloved Pakistan is always Awaiting you.
> 
> Tehreek-e-Azaadi-e-Kashmir Zindabaad ... *



Again this reinforces the perception among the common Indian that this is essentially a struggle based on religious intolerance and hence will not find favour irrespective of how many traveller miles Mirwaiz and Bilal log.

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## rockstarIN

SRINAGAR: Three suspected guerrillas and a policeman were killed in a shootout in Jammu and Kashmir on Monday, police said.

A senior police officer said police had set up a checkpost at Qamarwari Chowk in Srinagar city, 8 kilometre from city centre Lal Chowk, after specific information about the possible movement of guerrillas in the area.

"Three motorcycle-borne people approached the Naka and they were signalled to halt, upon which they fired at a head constable who died because of the critical bullet injury," the police officer said.

"Retaliatory action was immediately taken by the other police personnel who fired at the fleeing motorcycle-borne assailants, killing all three," the police officer said.

The area has been cordoned off and the identity of the slain guerrillas is still to be established. Police said they have recovered two pistols and five grenades from the slain guerrillas.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-in-Srinagar-shootout/articleshow/7009623.cms


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## paritosh

twoplustwoisfour said:


> No, it doesn't simplify our foreign policy. Remember, India is on a please all mission to get UN reforms. The vote of each country counts, be it Iran or Zaire.



What mission do you talk of?


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## Fasih Khan

*Thanks to Mohtaram Khamenei Sahab and Islamic Repubilc of Iran. All the Righeous of the world would Support Kashmiri's Just Stuggle Against Oppressor India. Jazakum Allah Kher. *

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## Paan Singh

Fasih Khan said:


> *Thanks to Mohtaram Khamenei Sahab and Islamic Repubilc of Iran. All the Righeous of the world would Support Kashmiri's Just Stuggle Against Oppressor India. Jazakum Allah Kher. *



so now wat?


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## Ammyy

*LeT attempt to sneak into city foiled; 3 militants killed *



> *Srinagar: Police on Monday said that three militants and a policeman were killed in shoot-out at Qammerwari here.
> &#8220;Gunmen appeared at Qammerwari Chowk this afternoon and opened fire on a police patrol. The fire was retaliated triggering a gunfight in which three militants and a policeman were killed,&#8221; a police spokesman said.
> He identified the slain policeman as Muhammad Ashraf. Searches in the area were on when this report was filed, the spokesman added. *


GreaterKashmir Daily English Newspaper from Kashmir Srinagar, Kashmiri, Kashmir news Kashmir Discussion Forum,Srinagar,Latest News from kashmir, Lastupdate:- Mon, 29 Nov 2010 18:30:00 GMT

The Hindu : News / National : LeT attempt to sneak into city foiled; 3 militants killed



> *Thwarting an attempt by militants of Pakistan-based Lashker-e-Taiba to enter Srinagar city, a brave constable of Jammu and Kashmir Police laid down his life but only after gunning down three ultras including a foreigner in outskirts of the city.*



A brave police officer who sacrifice his life for nation .... Salute to this person and RIP

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## S_O_C_O_M

*Justifying state terrorism ​*
*Farooqs defence of POTA exposes the role and real character of NC​*
[editorial-Kashmir Times-Nov 29, 2010]

NOT surprisingly the leaders of the National Conference, which is at the helm of affairs in Jammu and Kashmir in alliance with the Congress, are playing their old game of running with the hare and hunting with the hound. Such doublespeak ands double standards have been the hallmark of the NC ever since it returned to power in 1975 under the Indira-Sheikh Accord. It is particularly so after the throne was occupied by Farooq Abdullah following the death of his illustrious father in true dynastic style. 

Farooq had not only mastered the art of speaking in different languages while in power and out of it but during power he had even acquired the art of blowing hot and cold in the same breath. On occasions he threatened to throw all his political detractors into the Jhelum while on other occasions he claimed to be a democrat par excellence who was willing to accommodate the voice of dissent. 

The NC leaders talked of human rights abuses committed by the security forces after 1990 when the militancy started and after returning to power in 1996 the party chief and the chief minister threatened to use strong-arm methods to teach a lesson to the alienated people of Kashmir, whom he labeled as separatists and ant-national. 

On occasions he pleaded for dialogue with Pakistan to resolve all outstanding disputes between the two neighbouring countries and when it suited him he again reverted back to Pakistan bashing. When out of power he invariably blamed New Delhi for failing to honour its commitments to the people of Kashmir or treating it in step-motherly manner. After joining the Union cabinet as minister for new and renewable energy, the NC chief is back to Pakistan bashing, blaming the neighbouring country for fostering terrorism and for all the trouble in the troubled Jammu and Kashmir. 

For his years in opposition he considered India as a villain of piece and after returning to power he is back to the game of anti-Pak bellicosities and saber rattling. Worse, the NC chief while justifying the use of repression in Kashmir has been defending the draconian laws being enforced to deal with the situation. Speaking at a seminar in Kolkata, where he was in the company of BJP leader Arun Jaitley, on Saturday, the former chief minister not only advocated the draconian Prevention of Terrorist Activities Act (POTA) but also boastfully claimed that it was he who had enforced this draconian law in the State when he was in power. He said with a sense of pride that  during my chief ministership, I implemented POTA going against my cabinet as it was the only option in fighting terror. 

But during the elections, the Opposition brought this up against me. But they did not realize that I did it in the interest of the nation. He, however, failed to add that during the 2008 elections to the State assembly his party made a categorical commitment to put an end to all human rights abuses and even review of draconian laws like the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA).

Omar Abdullah, who took over the reins of office as head of the NC-Congress coalition after 2008 election appears to be following in many ways the policy of doublespeak and double-standards, perfected and adopted by his father. He first tried to use strong-arm methods to suppress the popular unrest against the grave human rights abuses committed by the security forces in Kashmir. Later he relented and categorically advocated the repeal of AFSPA and even removal of troops from the public places. He, however, changed his stance after opposition to the demand for repeal of AFSPA was voiced by different quarters in New Delhi, particularly the justification of this draconian Act by the army generals and suggested that it should be reviewed and amended or removed in a phased manner.

It is a different matter that so far he has not mustered enough courage to take steps for removing the Disturbed Areas Act from different districts of the State. Even his government has failed so far to put an end to human rights abuses like the arrests of innocent youth and political leaders, continued detention of a number of persons including children under the draconian Public Safety Act, curbs on the movements of the people and use of lethal weapons by the police to disperse demonstrators etc. Mercifully, Omar Abdullah still talks of the desirability of removing AFSPA from a few selected districts. 

On the contrary, his father and party chief, Farooq Abdullah, is still not in favour of the revocation of AFSPA when admitting that the laws like AFSPA had resulted in excesses in the Valley he said in his Kolkata speech that he was not in favour of withdrawing this draconian law.

Kashmir Watch :: In-depth coverage on Kashmir conflict


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## Fasih Khan

*Get the Count Down Started Insha' Allah.*


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## Ammyy

awesome title keep it up 

 Another BS thread


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## Paan Singh

Fasih Khan said:


> *Get the Count Down Started Insha' Allah.*



which countdown u r talking abt?


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## Security

So now Iran and Pakistan should start a combined action against RAW who's mainly involved in suicide bombings and unrest in Pakistani Baluchistan. 



> *
> &#1605;&#1606;&#1601;&#1593;&#1578; &#1575;&#1610;&#1705; &#1729;&#1746; &#1575;&#1587; &#1602;&#1608;&#1605; &#1705;&#1610;' &#1606;&#1602;&#1589;&#1575;&#1606; &#1576;&#1726;&#1610; &#1575;&#1610;&#1705;
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> &#1705;&#1587; &#1705;&#1610; &#1570;&#1606;&#1705;&#1726;&#1608;&#1722; &#1605;&#1610;&#1722; &#1587;&#1605;&#1575;&#1610;&#1575; &#1729;&#1746; &#1588;&#1593;&#1575;&#1585; &#1575;&#1594;&#1610;&#1575;&#1585;&#1567;
> &#1729;&#1608;&#1711;&#1574;&#1610; &#1705;&#1587; &#1705;&#1610; &#1606;&#1711;&#1729; &#1591;&#1585;&#1586; &#1587;&#1604;&#1601; &#1587;&#1746; &#1576;&#1610;&#1586;&#1575;&#1585;&#1567;
> &#1602;&#1604;&#1576; &#1605;&#1610;&#1722; &#1587;&#1608;&#1586; &#1606;&#1729;&#1610;&#1722;' &#1585;&#1608;&#1581; &#1605;&#1610;&#1722; &#1575;&#1581;&#1587;&#1575;&#1587; &#1606;&#1729;&#1610;&#1722;
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## Jade

Srinagar, November 28

Beyond the death-count, over-five month long unrest in Kashmir has taken a serious toll on Valleys budding talent, with scores of young boys, far from their homes, trying to make it big in various Indian companies.

However, Kashmirs young talent is proving its mettle in Jammu and other places in India like Maharashtra, New Delhi and Bangalore. Some have landed in the Gulf as well out of brilliance. This is happening at a time when the trouble-ravaged Valley desperately needed these youngsters to serve it.

For 24-year-old Aijaz Ahmed Kachroo, it was a dream to be part of a company dealing with surgical items and having a base in Srinagar. He grew desperate in shaping his dream after his father died in January this year. As the summer set in, he struck a deal with four Gujarat-based companies.

All the four companies were dealing with various kinds of surgical items. I was lucky to finalize the deal with all four, viz. Tiger, Jimit, Mediplus and Pricon Disposals. They issued an authority letter to me, says Aijaz, having done Masters in Business Administration (MBA).
Aijaz got a contract to distribute surgical items in all three regions of Jammu and Kashmir. He came back, naturally, with a big smile on his face. My mother had also pinned high hopes on me, he says. In May 2010, I registered my turnover between Rs 12-14 lakh. 
But things took an ugly turn after Kashmir unrest opned account with the first death of a teenager, Tufail Ahmed Matoo, on June 11. Everything changed after his death. My sales dipped drastically and my turnover fell to a meagre Rs 1.7 lakh, says Aijaz. He soon got a call from his company bosses. Leave Kashmir, shift your base to Ladakh or Jammu, a clear-cut diktat stared him in the face.
Left with no option, Aijaz moved from his home in July and set up office in Jammu. It was really painful. I had thought to serve Kashmir and to supply items from Kashmir to Jammu and Ladakh. But fate had wished something else, he sighs. He has stayed put in Jammu eversince.

Although the situation has seemingly improved in Kashmir, Aijaz is not sure whether to shift his base to Kashmir again.
Like Aijaz, there are many others having met a similar fate. Ramez Ahmed of north Kashmirs Baramulla district, which bore the brunt of unrest, had big plans for his hometown. He had invested a few lakhs to start a small business venture in his home district. I was employing eight persons and paying them Rs 3000 apiece, he says, adding he had never thought of moving out of Kashmir.
I was forced to leave Kashmir as I was the main source of income for my family. I finally landed in a call centre namely JK Info-Tech in Jammu, he says. Though Ramez gets a handsome salary but he is a typical example of those who miss home a lot, there being no fellow Kashmiri in his company. I miss my family badly but cannot go back, he sighs.

Similarly, Muneer Ahmed Rigoo (23) fled to Jammu August this year owing to the unrest in Valley. When things deteriorated, I decided to move out, he says. Rigoo had entered into a deal with Khyber Cements Ltd. After completing his graduation, he had made his mind to do something for his family. I invested more than Rs 10 lakh and my clientele was improving with each passing day, he reminds. "Presently I am in Jammu. I provide employment to 10 persons in my two shops.

For Suhail Ahmed of Old City, Jammu was no choice after his computer shop remained closed for three months due to frequent curfews and strikes. My parents permitted me to go to Delhi and with the help of my friend, I landed in a Business Process Outsource (BPO). My salary is Rs 30,000, he says. One of my close friends got a job in a call centre in Maharashtra as well.

There are more who met the same fate as these youngsters. A good number of students have also left Kashmir to study in various Indian states. Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, while inaugurating Udyog Bhawan at Bemina in October, stated that 50,000 people had left Kashmir for new pastures outside owing to the unrest.

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## Subramanian

Joe Shearer said:


> Is this a criterion for determining excellence, or for determining who has the right views on social issues?
> 
> 
> 
> In case you have not noticed, the bulk of IIT and IIM students have studied science in school, and technology in undergraduate studies, hence have no clue about historical issues.
> 
> 
> 
> Presumably by analogy, all others are the opposite, ie, left wing.
> 
> In which case, there is a decided balance in favour of the left wing in Indian politics. Particularly so in the state of Bihar, for instance, where caste-based and exclusivist politics has been put into the rubbish bin, and economics and development politics is obviously in favour. What do you think is going to happen to the RSS/BJP/Sangh Parivar brand of exclusionist politics in future?
> 
> You mentioned that this so-called right wing puts India first, and only attacks those that don't put the nation's interests first.
> 
> Don't you find that sentence of yours both naive and self-serving, at one and the same time?
> 
> Who, for instance, has given members of this alleged right-wing the authority to decide what is good and bad for Indian politics, and for the Indian state, or the people of India?
> 
> The answer, unfortunately, is that they, the Sangh Parivar, have appointed themselves to be the guardians of Indian thinking, understanding of history and sociology, current morals and behaviour in public, relations between religions and castes and between religions and tribes.
> 
> But who authorised them? And why do they persist in breaking the law of the land? We must question both the authority and the delegated powers under that authority to discover what it is that leads to such seditious behaviour on the part of the RSS - flagrantly disregarding the law of the land. The latest incident being the row at the entrance to the venue where the Mirwaiz was due to speak. It just was unpleasant; no points were raised, none were answered. If the entire meeting had gone on like that, it would have been a disaster.
> 
> Fortunately, actual, bona-fide participants, like the ex-Chief, managed the situation well after the thugs had been dragged away. When faced with facts and logic, the Mirwaiz drooped and faded.
> 
> The *only* legitimate authority that can be given by the people and the state of India is to those who are elected to be representatives, at state level or at national level. Period. Others can express an opinion on whether this, that or some policy is good or bad for the nation, but they do not hold a monopoly of wisdom. So not only they, but those who wish to oppose them are free to say what they please.
> 
> It is difficult not to point out that if the Sangh Parivar's point of view, developed entirely by themselves, and not adopted universally in the nation, is to be heard peacefully, so too should nuisances like Arundhati Roy enjoy their right to express their point of view.
> 
> As Voltaire is wrongly reputed to have said, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
> 
> The Sangh Parivar has a long way to go to get to the standards of the 18th century.





you are so smart is it?

first of all the IIT,IIM thing was a reply to popeye about how RSS has a lot of educated people in its ranks.

Secondly,Engineering or Management is just a professional qualification,you dont need to study history to make opinions for yourself.It is evident and it is out there.Everyone studies history till secondary school(even though it is biased bullshit),knowing history doesn't mean u have to be an archaeologist to do that.

Someone has to take responsibility and have a vision on how to run the country,inflating the economy and showing growth targets helps in nothing.

RSS has no choice but to rubbish the parties left of centre because of their extreme inability to run the country well,i dont want to use logic and idealistic leftist ideas in the way a citizen doing his duty.

And who is breaking the law of the land?So confronting Mirwaiz Umar Farooq is a such a big deal for you.

Which Utopia do you live in man?That law that you speak of is not followed at all in reality.The law of the land is not exercised for any bloody crime.

Mass murderers,Public looters and corrupt people walk free making laws of the land,do you know how many inept chutes get driving licences to end up killing people on the road?

Which law are you talking about?seriously.

Have u walked into a government office anytime to get things done,if u do so u ll realize the little credibility that the govt has in our country.

But u happen to think Slapping Mirwaiz Umar Farooq is a big deal?

u r right,we should be slaughtering those terrorists who indulge in ethnic cleansing rather than just slapping him.

Elected representatives?That has to be the biggest joke on this planet.

If u happen to see some of these elected representatives,u ll want to jump off the nearest window rather than entrust ur life with these backboneless chutes.

It is one thing to have ideals but playing a violin when all is burning around you is plain fvckin stupid and u have the audacity to advertise that too.

everyone has the right to say things,nobody is saying otherwise.But if people like Arundhati Roy,i dont know with what dreams of a revolution is mouthing her *** off,she has to be shown her place,plainly ignoring is not enough.

yeah and regarding RSS,

Congress would slaughter Sikhs at will that is when they are not robbing the coffers off indian treasuries,Lefties would grab lands with a red flag and outdated ideals,they would fund their votebanks off with freebees from tax payer money but it is always the Sangh which is at fault.

Democracy my ***.


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## Bhim

dezi said:


> ^^^ Yeh aadmi dar dar bhatak ke laat kyoon khana chahta hai?



Issko iske liye paise milte hai..


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## Nair saab

Security said:


> So now Iran and Pakistan should start a combined action against RAW who's mainly involved in suicide bombings and unrest in Pakistani Baluchistan.


ya then u go together & fight us & nato....then u supply them with atom baamb...then iran uses it against all arabs to take the revange against what they did by invading iran in 9th century...then they will attack isreal...if they dont shiver to death by the news that iran is gonna destroy them...finally after winning most of the countries in the world... zardari kills khumanie & becomes the supreme leader of the world...& the world finally lives happily under the rule of new supreme leader who owns 10% of the whole world world


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## KS

Why is this thread till open after this news in which Iran formally clarified that It *NEVER *meant to question India's sovereignity over Kashmir ?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/82176-india-changed-its-vote-u-n-some-other-reason-iran.html


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## Valiant_Soul

^^You cannot expect to engage anyone in dialogue with that kind of language, even though you may be angry and justifiably so.

I remember the fine lines in Mahabharat when Yudhishthir tells Nakul, that the day 'they' (kshatriayas) forget civility, the color of sunlight will fall black. 

I believe civil communication is the most basic ingredient of any aspiring society.


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## foxbat

LeT top man killed in encounter in J&K- TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos

The 21 Rashtriya Rifles killed two top Lashkar-e-Toiba's men at Rajwar forest near Handwara in Jammu & Kashmir. *One of the killed militants has been identified as Abdul Rehman*. Rehman was top commander who is responsible for infiltration activites, and a number of deadly attacks in the recent times. 

Rehman is wanted in a number of deadly attacks on the army. His killing is being considered as on of the biggest setbacks to the Lashkar. He has been in operation since 2002-2003.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

RIP to all the fallen Kashmiri martyrs who gave their lives defending the honour of their people & their lands

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## desioptimist

My observation about RSS primarily being supported by lower middle class is first hand, but could be wrong because I saw only in my area, that too quite long time ago. Most of the full timers definitely belong to that socio-economic section.

I never went to IITs or IIMs, so have no idea about them going to sakha, but a few of them joining is not a surprise. Many students have leftist view after a few years it changes.

About all the question of duplicity regarding secularism, I agree, partially, but not the way it is represented by RSS.

I agree to the point Joe mentioned, RSS cannot be the people who decide who is patriotic. Their brand of patriotism/jingoism mostly suits semi-literates.

Those,(like me) who think Taslima Nasreen should not be hounded everywhere she goes for her views, should also respect freedom of speech of Arundhati Roy and separatists.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

*How Nehrus Partisans Are Subverting his Kashmir Promise​*


> Jawed Naqvi
> *When US President Barrack Obama during his visit to India kept studiously quiet about his hosts military occupation of Kashmir, he was in fact critiquing Jawaharlal Nehru in front of those who claim legitimacy from Indias first prime minister. *
> 
> Obama may have got his cue from Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. He was after all a senior member of the Indian cabinet in 1994 when the parliament passed a strange resolution claiming that the entire Jammu and Kashmir state, including the area occupied by Pakistan, was an integral part of India.
> 
> *The resolution became the antithesis of everything that India had stood for vis a vis Kashmir under Nehru. The fact that Delhis most powerful politician Sonia Gandhi, and the ruling Congress partys heir apparent Rahul Gandhi have implicitly backed the existing hard line policy can be seen as the betrayal of an ideal both claim to inherit from Nehru.*
> 
> Lets see what Nehru said over several years about Kashmir, and how many of his views are being echoed by political activists who are being shunned by the system today as seditionists and anti-national rabble-rousers.
> 
> In his telegram to the Prime Minister of Pakistan on Oct 27, 1947, Nehru said: I should like to make it clear that the question of aiding Kashmir in this emergency is not designed in any way to influence the state to accede to India. Our view which we have repeatedly made public is that the question of accession in any disputed territory or state must be decided *in accordance with wishes of people and we adhere to this view*.
> 
> In another similar telegram four days later, he said: Kashmirs accession to India was accepted by us at the request of the Maharajas government and the most numerously representative popular organisation in the state which is predominantly Muslim. *Even then it was accepted on condition that as soon as law and order had been restored, the people of Kashmir would decide the question of accession. It is open to them to accede to either Dominion then*.
> 
> In his broadcast over All India Radio on Nov 2, 1947, Nehru said: We are anxious not to finalise anything in a moment of crisis and without the fullest opportunity to be given to the people of Kashmir to have their say. It is for them ultimately to decide  And let me make it clear that it has been our policy that where there is a dispute about the accession of a state to either Dominion, the accession must be made by the people of that state. It is in accordance with this policy that we have added a proviso to the Instrument of Accession of Kashmir.
> 
> *In his statement in the Indian Constituent Assembly on Nov 25, 1947, Nehru said: In order to establish our bona fide, we have suggested that when the people are given the chance to decide their future, this should be done under the supervision of an impartial tribunal such as the United Nations Organisation. The issue in Kashmir is whether violence and naked force should decide the future or the will of the people.*
> 
> In his statement in the Indian Constituent Assembly on March 5, 1948, he said: Even at the moment of accession, we went out of our way to make a unilateral declaration that we would abide by the will of the people of Kashmir as declared in a plebiscite or referendum. We insisted further that the government of Kashmir must immediately become a popular government. We have adhered to that position throughout and we are prepared to have a Plebiscite with every protection of fair voting and to abide by the decision of the people of Kashmir.
> 
> In his press conference in London on Jan 16, 1951, as reported by The Statesman on Jan 18, 1951, Nehru stated: India has repeatedly offered to work with the United Nations reasonable safeguards to enable the people of Kashmir to express their will and is always ready to do so. We have always right from the beginning accepted the idea of the Kashmir people deciding their fate by referendum or plebiscite. In fact, this was our proposal long before the United Nations came into the picture. Ultimately the final decision of the settlement, which must come, has first of all to be made basically by the people of Kashmir and secondly, as between Pakistan and India directly. Of course it must be remembered that we (India and Pakistan) have reached a great deal of agreement already. What I mean is that many basic features have been thrashed out. We all agreed that it is the people of Kashmir who must decide for themselves about their future externally or internally. It is an obvious fact that even without our agreement no country is going to hold on to Kashmir against the will of the Kashmiris.
> 
> ***In his report to All Indian Congress Committee on July 16, 1951, as published in The Statesman, New Delhi, on July 9, 1951, Nehru said: Kashmir has been wrongly looked upon as a prize for India or Pakistan. People seem to forget that Kashmir is not a commodity for sale or to be bartered. It has an individual existence and its people must be the final arbiters of their future.***
> 
> It is here today that a struggle is bearing fruit, not in the battlefield but in the minds of men.
> 
> In a letter dated Sept 11, 1951, to the UN representative, Pandit Nehru wrote: The Government of India not only reaffirms its acceptance of the principle that the question of the continuing accession of the state of Jammu and Kashmir to India shall be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite under the auspices of the United Nations but is anxious that the conditions necessary for such a plebiscite should be created as quickly as possible. (This is where Pakistan needs to fulfil its part of the bargain.)
> 
> As reported by Amrita Bazar Patrika, Calcutta, on Jan 2, 1952, while replying to the Bharatiya Jan Sanghs Shyama Prasad Mookerjis question in the Indian Legislature as to what the Congress Government was going to do about one third of territory still held by Pakistan, Nehru said: It is not the property of either India or Pakistan. It belongs to the Kashmiri people.
> 
> When Kashmir acceded to India, we made it clear to the leaders of the Kashmiri people that we would ultimately abide by the verdict of their Plebiscite. If they tell us to walk out, I would have no hesitation in quitting. We have taken the issue to United Nations and given our word of honour for a peaceful solution. As a great nation we cannot go back on it. We have left the question for final solution to the people of Kashmir and we are determined to abide by their decision.
> 
> *In his statement in the Indian Parliament on Aug 7, 1952, Nehru said: Let me say clearly that we accept the basic proposition that the future of Kashmir is going to be decided finally by the goodwill and pleasure of her people. The goodwill and pleasure of this Parliament is of no importance in this matter, not because this Parliament does not have the strength to decide the question of Kashmir but because any kind of imposition would be against the principles that this Parliament holds.*
> 
> Kashmir is very close to our minds and hearts and if by some decree or adverse fortune, ceases to be a part of India, it will be a wrench and a pain and torment for us. *If, however, the people of Kashmir do not wish to remain with us, let them go by all means. We will not keep them against their will, however painful it may be to us. I want to stress that it is only the people of Kashmir who can decide the future of Kashmir.*
> 
> It is not that we have merely said that to the United Nations and to the people of Kashmir, it is our conviction and one that is borne out by the policy that we have pursued, not only in Kashmir but everywhere. Though these five years have meant a lot of trouble and expense and in spite of all we have done, we would willingly leave if it was made clear to us that the people of Kashmir wanted us to go.
> 
> *However sad we may feel about leaving we are not going to stay against the wishes of the people. We are not going to impose ourselves on them on the point of the bayonet.*
> 
> Today, opposing the subjugation of Kashmiris at bayonet point is called sedition. We have indeed come a long way from Indias early promise of democracy and justice to be shared equally by its people, including with those that might wish to leave the union for reasons of their own.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jawednaqvi@gmail.com





How Nehru?s partisans are subverting his Kashmir promise | Opinion columns, editorials, Dawn 50 years ago today, blogs, letters to the editor and other voices | DAWN.COM


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Geelani: India Can't kill Kashmiris's Azadi Sentiments ​* 
TopNews 
Written by KMS 
Monday, 29 November 2010 13:27 







Srinagar, November 29, 2010: All Parties Hurriyat Conference Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani has said that India will never succeed to kill the Azadi (liberation from India) sentiment of the Kashmiri people.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani in a media interview in Srinagar said that the people of Kashmir had been fighting against Indias illegal occupation of their soil since 1947 and their liberation movement against Indian occupation had been totally peaceful and indigenous. He said that during the past five months Indian police and troops martyred over 112 innocent civilians, mostly teenagers, injured over 3000, arrested hundreds of youth including Hurriyat leaders and activists and utilized all resources but failed to suppress the ongoing Quit Kashmir Movement (QKM).

The APHC Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, said that the Kashmiris basic demand was implementation of the UN resolutions or settlement of the dispute through a consensus arrived at by India, Pakistan and the real Kashmiri representatives through talks. He deplored that on one hand, India talked about the dialogue, while on the other, it claimed Jammu and Kashmir as its integral part. He said that this approach had been the main hurdle in settling the lingering dispute.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani maintained that the longstanding dispute should be resolved in its historical perspective by giving the Kashmiri people their inalienable right to self-determination as promised by the relevant UN resolutions.

The APHC-M Chairman, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, has said that the Kashmir dispute should be resolved through tripartite talks involving Pakistan, India and the real Kashmiri leadership.

Mirwaiz Umar Farooq addressing a seminar in Kolkata as a part of his awareness campaign said that Kashmir was a political problem, which should be resolved politically. The settlement of Kashmir is possible only under the United Nations resolutions or through dialogue process, he added.

The APHC-M Chairman said that Kashmir was a disputed territory and its resolution was vital to the peace and stability in the south Asian region. "India should revoke all the draconian laws, withdraw its troops, release all the illegally detained pro-freedom leaders and activists and stop gross rights abuses in the occupied territory to create conducive atmosphere for the dialogue on Kashmir, he maintained.

The Mirwaiz said, "The so-called election drama enacted by India in Jammu and Kashmir from time to time has nothing to do with the history and the sentiment of the Kashmiri people. He denounced the order of a Delhi Court to register FIR against, prominent Indian writer, Arundathi Roy, for her comments on Kashmir during a seminar in New Delhi, last month.

Defending Arundhati Roy, he said, Roy had only repeated the historical facts about Kashmir. He said that the occupation authorities had put curbs on the right of expression across the occupied territory.

Senior APHC leader, Agha Syed Hassan Al-Moosvi, has said that India cannot suppress Kashmiris just struggle for their right of Self-Determination through use of brute force and illegal detentions of pro-liberation leaders and activists.

He further said that the people of Jammu and Kashmir wanted cordial bilateral relations between Pakistan and India. He termed the use of force by the occupation authorities as a conspiracy to harass the Hurriyat leaders and the freedom-loving people of the territory. Indian agencies are trying to thwart the efforts of Indian Civil Society and Intellectuals to make the masses aware of the gross human rights violations perpetrated by Indian troopers across the occupied valley, he added.

Indian troops, in their fresh act of state terrorism, martyred three more innocent Kashmiri youth in a shoot out in Srinagar city of Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK).

The troops martyred the youth in a vindictive operation after a policeman was killed in an attack in Qamarwari area of the city, this afternoon. The troops sealed off the area and started search operation, which continued till last reports came in.

Geelani: India Can't kill Kashmiris's Azadi Sentiments

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## Fasih Khan

*Mohtaram Geelani Sahab May Allah Almighty Bless Kashmir, Azaadi from the Aggressor India. May Kashmiri's see the light of Liberation sooner then one can think of. Ameen. Countless Prayers from your Pakistan. Allah Almighty Bless You. Ameen.*

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## jayron

Thanks for your "sincere" prayers. Allah will do what is best for Kashmiri people.

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## sensenreason

Fasih Khan said:


> *Mohtaram Geelani Sahab May Allah Almighty Bless Kashmir, Azaadi from the Aggressor India. May Kashmiri's see the light of Liberation sooner then one can think of. Ameen. Countless Prayers from your Pakistan. Allah Almighty Bless You. Ameen.*



Touching ! I must say...


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## Fasih Khan

sensenreason said:


> Touching ! I must say...



Sensereason, We Pakistanis and Muslims have nothing against India but just the wrong doings of Indian State in Jammu & Kashmir. I hope the Indian nation realizes the truth and works with us to undo the wrong doings so we should live side by side as good neighbours. It is hurtning to see that India is Absolutely Wrong when it comes to Kashmir Issue and some Indians still support it. For example, as you all would know that I'm the greatest Patriot and would love to die for Pakistan but still wouldn't Ever Support any wrong doing by my State. Treatment to our Bangoli Brothers by Pak Army is an example. I Request all the Indians to Please come out of denial and be truthful to yourselves and to the world. It's going to be a big Virtue for you guys. Last but not least Thank you for Appreciating the Truth Sir.


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## Ammyy

S_O_C_O_M said:


> * Geelani: India Can't kill Kashmiris's Azadi Sentiments *



So Geelani again came from his AC home to give another lecture.


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## GUNNER

*Case registered against Arundhati, Geelani*

*NEW DELHI:* Following a court order, the Delhi Police on Monday registered a case of sedition against writer Arundhati Roy, hardline Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani, revolutionary poet Varavara Rao and others on charges of giving anti-India speeches at a convention on Kashmir, Azadi: The Only Way, held here on Oct. 21.

The case has been registered at Tilak Marg police station under Sections 124 A (sedition), 153 A (promoting enmity between different groups and doing acts prejudicial to maintenance of harmony), 153 B (imputations, assertions, prejudicial to national integration), 504 (insult intended to provoke breach of peace) and 505 (statements conducing to public mischief) of the IPC and Section 13 of the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act.

Joint Commissioner of Police (New Delhi Range) Dharmendra Kumar said the complaint filed by Sushil Pandit in the court under Section 156 (3) of the Criminal Procedure Code has been converted into the First Information Report FIR after taking legal opinion on the matter. With the registration of the case, the police have initiated investigations. 

They have already obtained footage of the speeches made at the convention. We will closely examine the speeches and file a report in the court by January 6, 2011 (the next date of hearing), said Mr. Kumar.

The others named in the complaint include Delhi University professor S. A. R. Geelani who was acquitted in the Parliament attack case, Kashmir University law professor Sheikh Shaukat Hussain, Shuddhabrata Sengupta and Sujato Bhadra.

A Delhi court had, last Saturday, ordered the police to register the FIR against Ms. Roy, the Hurriyat leader and the others for allegedly making anti-India statements at the convention. Directing the police to register the case under relevant provisions, Metropolitan Magistrate Navita Kumari Bagha had noted that there was prime facie cogent evidence against the accused.


The Hindu : Front Page : Case registered against Arundhati, Geelani


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## Ammyy

Now no free attention catching BS 
You have to pay back


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## StingRoy

I guess they finally decided enough is enough.

Lets see if they get an arrest warrant though.


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## foxbat

good.. Now let her see her fan following (huh!) dwindle to nothing.. bloody traitor

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## Joe Shearer

Karthic Sri said:


> When such conditions are widespread how can one blame the the RSS/Sangh Parivar alone for all the ills in the society.
> 
> Correct these above conditions and deny the oxygen that makes these groups relevant.Unless and until that is done don't blame RSS and its supporters.



Unfortunately, the answer for a series of mistakes is not to point at a countervailing series of mistakes. 

Frequently, when we speak to our friends across the western borders, we are exasperated when we point out the ways in which they have harmed our nation, and they reply with a dhobi-list of items that they bear as real or imaginary grievances. Your reply is exactly the same as theirs. Are we then to justify all the armed attacks on India by saying that they feel frustrated and grieved by India not giving in to all their demands? Surely not. And therefore, your list of hideous things that have been committed by others cannot be a justification for the hideous things done by the Sangh Parivar. Two wrongs do not make a right.

There are other hyper-patriots floating across the Internet waves, and one of them, in a moment of sanity enunciated what is known as Shiv's Gambit: Person A to Person B: "Your shirt is torn!" Person B to Person A: "So what? Your fly is open!" Person B's shirt remains torn; in some mysterious way, he thinks that Person A's fly being open somehow justifies going around with a torn shirt. It doesn't.

Finally, those opposed to the Sangh Parivar aren't necessarily defenders of the Congress, as seems to be your entirely mistaken belief. Please see the comments below.

_Sikhs getting slaughered in thousands = A MISTAKE._

It was not; it was *ethnic violence in its worst form*, and it is a national shame that it is not pursued in the courts and the perpetrators, all of whom are known politicians and thugs in Delhi, brought to justice. Please do not use the Congress Party's excuses to justify Sangh Parivar excesses and similar acts of genocide.

_Hindus pandits getting killed in Kashmir = Political problem._

Again, this was an act of _communal bias_, and is the blackest stain in the face of Kashmiri secularism and inter-faith tolerance. Now we have a Hurriyat excuse being used to justify the Sangh.

_Poor protestors getting shot in WB under Left Govt = Misunderstanding._

Well done; you have managed to rope in the Congress Party, the Hurriyat and the CPI(M), and shown that they too are guilty of horrible crimes against humanity. How does that justify the Sangh Parivar?

_But,Muslims getting killed by a few hundred = Holocaust/Pogrom/Genocide._

So let us have your enlightened Sanghi opinion: do you want us to call it "A MISTAKE", a "political problem", or a "Misunderstanding"? And are you comparing the numbers? 
---------------------------------------------------
_Banning Parzania in Gujarat = Communal._

_Banning Da Vinci Code and Jo Bole So Nihaal = Secular_ 

Again, two wrongs making a right, it would appear.
---------------------------------------------------
_Reservations in every school and college on caste lines = Secular. _
_Reservations in Minority institutions = Communal._

In your zeal and fervour, you seem to have slipped. There is constitutional protection for minority institutions. If you consult your local Sangh chalak, he will no doubt ask you to club that also as communal. You may have to do extra drill and starch your khaki chadddis extra stiff in expiation. You are to be commiserated with; calling reservations in minority institutions "communal" was at worst a Mistake, a political problem (of understanding) or a Misunderstanding. 
----------------------------------------------------
_Fake encounters in Gujarat [Sohrabuddin] = BJP Communalism._
_Fake encounters under Cong-NCP in Maharashtra [Khwaja Younus] = Police atrocity._

Fake encounters, you will agree, are breaches of the law, and the law-breakers are to be prosecuted for manslaughter if charges of murder are not tenable (there are certain conditions that have to be satisfied for charges of murder to be imposed). The difference is that the Sohrabuddin case is clearly an outcome of the rank corruption of the BJP minister as well and senior policemen, who were running a protection racket, and threatening lives unless they were paid off. Both are atrocities.

If you want to fight the Congress, a laudable political objective, and one with which many of us will have sympathy, do it without using their misdeeds to justify the Sangh. Kalmadi's corruption doesn't justify Yedyurappa's, Raja's corruption doesn't justify Venkaiah Naidu's. 
----------------------------------------------------
_Talking about Hindus and Hinduism appeasment = Communal._

Perhaps you need to re-write this passage; appeasing Hindus is hardly communal. Appeasing, BTW, means avoiding conflict by making concessions to a threatening enemy; how does this fit your phrase? Are Hindus and Hinduism threatening, or have they been receiving concessions?

_Talking about Muslims,Christians and Islam = Secular._

Don't you think an 80+% majority can afford to be accommodating? Do you find even talking about them offensive? Presuming that secular is an offensive term to you, as it frequently is for Sanghis.
----------------------------------------------------
_Not hanging Afzal Guru the mastermind despite Supreme Court orders = Humanity and Political dilemma/May affect Muslim sentiments_

How does delay in a judicial execution equate to communal riot and murder and burning alive an elected MP who made repeated appeals to the Chief Minister before being killed? 
----------------------------------------------------
_BJP questioning Islam = Communal._
_Congress/Historians questioning Lord Ram's existance = Clerical Error._

Islam is history, recorded by its opponents as well as by its supporters. Lord Rama is myth, even according to a fanatic BJP-ite. What do you mean by clerical error, by the way?
----------------------------------------------------
_The man who said "When a big tree falls the ground beneath it shakes" is honored with his name being used for every new airport,stadium,sea link etc._

Disgraceful. Does this justify slaughtering Muslims and Christians?

_The man who was the CM during the Guj riots is a modern incarnation of Hitler._

And what else was Hitler but the head of state while Jews were being exterminated? Is it your case that he personally pressed the buttons to release Cyklon B?

----------------------------------------------------
_While every Human rights activist/political party worth his saly fights for Muslim victims of th Guj riots , no one cares for the 58 Karsevaks killed intially and the 250 killed later in the riots by the Mulsim mobs._

It might come as a surprise to you to learn that enquiries into the matter have cast grave doubts on the story of Muslim mobs setting fire to the railway coach. Look up the facts. And this is not to justify a loss of life, nor the deaths of the innocent. Those rioters who were killed in self-defence is a different matter, but we aren't talking about that, are we?
-----------------------------------------------------
_While a bomb blast in which a fringe group is among the suspects,it gets dubbed as "Hindu Terror" while in the case of its much famous cousin it becomes "Terrorism has no religion" and "innocent muslim youths are victimised"_

Bigots are bigots on both sides. Which one are you citing to justify the other? It's a circular argument, don't you see?
------------------------------------------------------
_In a supposedly secular society Mulsims are given subsidy to go for Hajj ; while Hindus going to Amarnath Yatra are not even allotted proper land_

And why didn't the BJP government and its coalition not stop this subsidy when it was in power?
--------------------------------------------------------
_Supreme court orders in the Shah Bano case subverted to maintain Muslim sentiments.
But Allahabad court verdict for Ayodhya questioned as faith cannot determine law._

Again, why should the wrongs committed by the Congress (in the Shah Bano case, a shocking miscarriage of justice, forced on the nation by a spineless administration) serve as justification for someone else? 

Does this act of blatant interference by a political party, reversing a judicial decision by act of Parliament, justify a bad judicial decision?
---------------------------------------------------------
_M.H Hussain drawing Godess Saraswati nude = Freedom of free speech
But Danish cartoon activist should be condemned as it hurts Muslim sentiments_

Again, the same error. 

Hussain certainly had and has the right of free artistic expression, and it has nothing to do with the noxious and unpardonable verbal attacks on the Danish cartoonist. Both should be condemned, not one taken as an excuse to justify the other.


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## darkhand08

Indian Jatt said:


> but less than the groups under pakistan's shelter.



way less...........and not in any other country...


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## Security

Karthik, Plz share the link where Iran clarified its official position over IOK.


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## Joe Shearer

Subramanian said:


> you are so smart is it?



It would be nice if you could avoid ad hominem attacks; it is not wise to start something which you cannot finish.



Subramanian said:


> first of all the IIT,IIM thing was a reply to popeye about how RSS has a lot of educated people in its ranks.



And my comment was very simply that having a lot of literate - not necessarily educated - people around is not a distinction. 

For what its worth, there are far more IIT and IIM people outside shakhas, supporting parties opposed to the BJP and the Sangh Parivar. That includes sons of RSS members. In case you are wondering, you only have to be a member of IIT and IIM alumni sites and mailing lists to know this. 

Unfortunately, to be a member, one needs to have gone to the IITs or to the IIMs; a ridiculous restriction, as I am sure you will consider this.



Subramanian said:


> Secondly,Engineering or Management is just a professional qualification,you dont need to study history to make opinions for yourself.It is evident and it is out there.Everyone studies history till secondary school(even though it is biased bullshit),knowing history doesn't mean u have to be an archaeologist to do that.



Unfortunately not true. 

The quality of the history taught in secondary schools is well known - biased bullshit it is, and the bias runs in several directions, depending on the political complexion of the Education Minister. There are chains of RSS schools, as has been mentioned in PakTeaHouse by illustrious graduates of these strange institutions, where history is excluded to the maximum extent possible. Picking up bits and pieces from popular literature (as one member of this forum who subscribes to your views does) is not a good substitute.



Subramanian said:


> Someone has to take responsibility and have a vision on how to run the country,inflating the economy and showing growth targets helps in nothing.



True; and who is to do that? A technician with vast knowledge of tools and no knowledge of society or the economy, or a social scientist with a good grounding in these? What precisely do you mean by taking responsibility and running the country? A military dictatorship perhaps? They are also well-trained professionals, and accustomed to command large numbers of people.

Would it be possible to learn what you think will work?



Subramanian said:


> RSS has no choice but to rubbish the parties left of centre because of their extreme inability to run the country well,i dont want to use logic and idealistic leftist ideas in the way a citizen doing his duty.



And when they run a state in a chaotic manner, who is at fault? Look at Karnataka, where a thief is in charge, selling government land to his son and son-in-law. Or look at the former president of the BJP, now arraigned by another eminent and very much better known member of the BJP of toeing a particular industrial house's line. Was that because he was in love with the head of the house?



Subramanian said:


> And who is breaking the law of the land?So confronting Mirwaiz Umar Farooq is a such a big deal for you.



Rioting and violence is against the law of the land.

No doubt that comes as an unwelcome shock to you. Did you think this normal behaviour, something to be encouraged? Did you think breaking the law and breaking down the Babri Masjid was lawful? Did you think that killing 2,000 Muslims in riots, with the police helpfully standing by, was legal? Did you think wrecking cinema houses that show films featuring your activities in a bad light is legal? Did you think destroying a museum lawful? 

There was nothing wrong with confronting Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, and Shankar Raychaudhury did so with logic and reasoning, and shut him up. There was everything wrong with turning up as a violent mob and trying to break in, and the perpetrators were rightly arrested.



Subramanian said:


> Which Utopia do you live in man?That law that you speak of is not followed at all in reality.The law of the land is not exercised for any bloody crime.
> 
> Mass murderers,Public looters and corrupt people walk free making laws of the land,do you know how many inept chutes get driving licences to end up killing people on the road?
> 
> Which law are you talking about?seriously.
> 
> Have u walked into a government office anytime to get things done,if u do so u ll realize the little credibility that the govt has in our country.



And your solution? To take the law into your own hands? What happens when someone else, who doesn't like you, does the same, and has more people backing him, more guns and bigger guns, and less scruples? Where do you plan to go then, for help?




Subramanian said:


> But u happen to think Slapping Mirwaiz Umar Farooq is a big deal?



No.

I happen to think that slapping anybody is unlawful. That he is Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has nothing to do with it. He could be Narendra Modi, and it would be just as unlawful.



Subramanian said:


> u r right,we should be slaughtering those terrorists who indulge in ethnic cleansing rather than just slapping him.



What do you mean, 'u r right'? That is from your fevered imagination, not my words at all.



Subramanian said:


> Elected representatives?That has to be the biggest joke on this planet.
> 
> If u happen to see some of these elected representatives,u ll want to jump off the nearest window rather than entrust ur life with these backboneless chutes.



Just curiousity; what else do you do but trust the administration to elected representatives.

Some more curiousity: what is your proposed alternative?



Subramanian said:


> It is one thing to have ideals but playing a violin when all is burning around you is plain fvckin stupid and u have the audacity to advertise that too.



Presumably this means something. Do feel free to explain. What violins? What burning? What advertisement? Does this also mean that you have no ideals? In which case, what is the ground on which you resist all those horrible things that elected people do?



Subramanian said:


> everyone has the right to say things,nobody is saying otherwise.But if people like Arundhati Roy,i dont know with what dreams of a revolution is mouthing her *** off,she has to be shown her place,plainly ignoring is not enough.



You see no contradiction in this? Everyone has the right to say things, except people like Arundhati Roy: is that it? 

What if Arundhati Roy and 1,500 people march to your house, and want to show you your place, saying that ignoring your abusive nonsense is not enough?



Subramanian said:


> yeah and regarding RSS,
> 
> Congress would slaughter Sikhs at will that is when they are not robbing the coffers off indian treasuries,Lefties would grab lands with a red flag and outdated ideals,they would fund their votebanks off with freebees from tax payer money but it is always the Sangh which is at fault.
> 
> Democracy my ***.



Not at all.

All of you Sanghis are so full of self-pity that you don't stop to listen.

I don't remember having supported the Congresss or the leftists. So whom are you referring to? Is it your case that if a person doesn't support the Sangh, he/she must support equally corrupt parties?

And do feel free to offer your alternative to democracy.

Considering that this is a Pakistani forum, you will have a large and interested audience.

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## KS

Security said:


> Karthik, Plz share the link where Iran clarified its official position over IOK.



The Hindu : News / National : India changed its vote at U.N. for some other reason: Iran


> Iranian officials explained that the word used in the Farsi original was millat,' which was totally different from nation in the political sense. Had the Iranian intention been to question India's sovereignty over Kashmir, it would have used kishwar' or hakimiyat.'


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## Security

Naair saab, Iran will never attack Arabs, you must stop dreaming. your friend Israel should be afraid of Iran not the Muslim Arabs. Iran always want friendly relations with Arab countries, can you quote me any example of any such Iranian plan about Arabs. It's the US and other arrogant powers who force Arabs to see Iran as a threat.


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## Fasih Khan

*File a charge against Jawaharlal Nehru too: Arundhati Roy*

*Posted on 28 November 2010. *

*In a broadcast to the nation on 3rd November, 1947, Pandit Nehru said, We have declared that the fate of Kashmir is ultimately to be decided by the people. That pledge we have given not only to the people of Kashmir and to the world. We will not and cannot back out of it. My reaction to todays court order directing the Delhi Police to file an FIR against me for waging war against the state: Perhaps they should posthumously file a charge against Jawaharlal Nehru too. Here is what he said about Kashmir:

1. In his telegram to the Prime Minister of Pakistan, the Indian Prime Minister Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru said, I should like to make it clear that the question of aiding Kashmir in this emergency is not designed in any way to influence the state to accede to India. Our view which we have repeatedly made public is that the question of accession in any disputed territory or state must be decided in accordance with wishes of people and we adhere to this view. (Telegram 402 Primin-2227 dated 27th October, 1947 to PM of Pakistan repeating telegram addressed to PM of UK).

2. In other telegram to the PM of Pakistan, Pandit Nehru said, Kashmirs accession to India was accepted by us at the request of the Maharajas government and the most numerously representative popular organization in the state which is predominantly Muslim. Even then it was accepted on condition that as soon as law and order had been restored, the people of Kashmir would decide the question of accession. It is open to them to accede to either Dominion then. (Telegram No. 255 dated 31 October, 1947).

Accession issue

3. In his broadcast to the nation over All India Radio on 2nd November, 1947, Pandit Nehru said, We are anxious not to finalise anything in a moment of crisis and without the fullest opportunity to be given to the people of Kashmir to have their say. It is for them ultimately to decide  And let me make it clear that it has been our policy that where there is a dispute about the accession of a state to either Dominion, the accession must be made by the people of that state. It is in accordance with this policy that we have added a proviso to the Instrument of Accession of Kashmir.

4. In another broadcast to the nation on 3rd November, 1947, Pandit Nehru said, We have declared that the fate of Kashmir is ultimately to be decided by the people. That pledge we have given not only to the people of Kashmir and to the world. We will not and cannot back out of it.

5. In his letter No. 368 Primin dated 21 November, 1947 addressed to the PM of Pakistan, Pandit Nehru said, I have repeatedly stated that as soon as peace and order have been established, Kashmir should decide of accession by Plebiscite or referendum under international auspices such as those of United Nations.

U.N. supervision

6.In his statement in the Indian Constituent Assembly on 25th November, 1947, Pandit Nehru said, In order to establish our bona fide, we have suggested that when the people are given the chance to decide their future, this should be done under the supervision of an impartial tribunal such as the United Nations Organisation. The issue in Kashmir is whether violence and naked force should decide the future or the will of the people.

7.In his statement in the Indian Constituent Assembly on 5th March, 1948, Pandit Nehru said, Even at the moment of accession, we went out of our way to make a unilateral declaration that we would abide by the will of the people of Kashmir as declared in a plebiscite or referendum. We insisted further that the Government of Kashmir must immediately become a popular government. We have adhered to that position throughout and we are prepared to have a Plebiscite with every protection of fair voting and to abide by the decision of the people of Kashmir.

Referendum or plebiscite

8.In his press-conference in London on 16th January, 1951, as reported by the daily Statesman on 18th January, 1951, Pandit Nehru stated, India has repeatedly offered to work with the United Nations reasonable safeguards to enable the people of Kashmir to express their will and is always ready to do so. We have always right from the beginning accepted the idea of the Kashmir people deciding their fate by referendum or plebiscite. In fact, this was our proposal long before the United Nations came into the picture. Ultimately the final decision of the settlement, which must come, has first of all to be made basically by the people of Kashmir and secondly, as between Pakistan and India directly. Of course it must be remembered that we (India and Pakistan) have reached a great deal of agreement already. What I mean is that many basic features have been thrashed out. We all agreed that it is the people of Kashmir who must decide for themselves about their future externally or internally. It is an obvious fact that even without our agreement no country is going to hold on to Kashmir against the will of the Kashmiris.

9.In his report to All Indian Congress Committee on 6th July, 1951 as published in the Statesman, New Delhi on 9th July, 1951, Pandit Nehru said, Kashmir has been wrongly looked upon as a prize for India or Pakistan. People seem to forget that Kashmir is not a commodity for sale or to be bartered. It has an individual existence and its people must be the final arbiters of their future. It is here today that a struggle is bearing fruit, not in the battlefield but in the minds of men.

10.In a letter dated 11th September, 1951, to the U.N. representative, Pandit Nehru wrote, The Government of India not only reaffirms its acceptance of the principle that the question of the continuing accession of the state of Jammu and Kashmir to India shall be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite under the auspices of the United Nations but is anxious that the conditions necessary for such a plebiscite should be created as quickly as possible.

Word of honour

11.As reported by Amrita Bazar Patrika, Calcutta, on 2nd January, 1952, while replying to Dr. Mookerjis question in the Indian Legislature as to what the Congress Government going to do about one third of territory still held by Pakistan, Pandit Nehru said, is not the property of either India or Pakistan. It belongs to the Kashmiri people. When Kashmir acceded to India, we made it clear to the leaders of the Kashmiri people that we would ultimately abide by the verdict of their Plebiscite. If they tell us to walk out, I would have no hesitation in quitting. We have taken the issue to United Nations and given our word of honour for a peaceful solution. As a great nation we cannot go back on it. We have left the question for final solution to the people of Kashmir and we are determined to abide by their decision.

12.In his statement in the Indian Parliament on 7th August, 1952, Pandit Nehru said, Let me say clearly that we accept the basic proposition that the future of Kashmir is going to be decided finally by the goodwill and pleasure of her people. The goodwill and pleasure of this Parliament is of no importance in this matter, not because this Parliament does not have the strength to decide the question of Kashmir but because any kind of imposition would be against the principles that this Parliament holds. Kashmir is very close to our minds and hearts and if by some decree or adverse fortune, ceases to be a part of India, it will be a wrench and a pain and torment for us. If, however, the people of Kashmir do not wish to remain with us, let them go by all means. We will not keep them against their will, however painful it may be to us. I want to stress that it is only the people of Kashmir who can decide the future of Kashmir. It is not that we have merely said that to the United Nations and to the people of Kashmir, it is our conviction and one that is borne out by the policy that we have pursued, not only in Kashmir but everywhere. Though these five years have meant a lot of trouble and expense and in spite of all we have done, we would willingly leave if it was made clear to us that the people of Kashmir wanted us to go. However sad we may feel about leaving we are not going to stay against the wishes of the people. We are not going to impose ourselves on them on the point of the bayonet.

Kashmirs soul

13.In his statement in the Lok Sabha on 31st March, 1955 as published in Hindustan Times New Delhi on Ist April, 1955, Pandit Nehru said, Kashmir is perhaps the most difficult of all these problems between India and Pakistan. We should also remember that Kashmir is not a thing to be bandied between India and Pakistan but it has a soul of its own and an individuality of its own. Nothing can be done without the goodwill and consent of the people of Kashmir.

14.In his statement in the Security Council while taking part in debate on Kashmir in the 765th meeting of the Security Council on 24th January, 1957, the Indian representative Mr. Krishna Menon said, So far as we are concerned, there is not one word in the statements that I have made in this council which can be interpreted to mean that we will not honour international obligations. I want to say for the purpose of the record that there is nothing that has been said on behalf of the Government of India which in the slightest degree indicates that the Government of India or the Union of India will dishonour any international obligations it has undertaken. They can file a charge posthumously against Jawaharlal Nehru too: Arundhati Roy*

File a charge against Jawaharlal Nehru too: Arundhati Roy | Times of Srinagar


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## Security

kARTHIC, Plz show me something from Iranian media. For Iranian official position on IOK and explanation on Iran Leader's statements, the only reliable source is Iranian official media, Leader's own website and IRIB. Plz show me something from Iranian reliable sources.


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## KS

Security said:


> kARTHIC, Plz show me something from Iranian media. For Iranian official position on IOK and explanation on Iran Leader's statements, the only reliable source is Iranian official media, Leader's own website and IRIB. Plz show me something from Iranian reliable sources.



The Hindu is one of the most (if not the most) respected newspaper in India and their words are good as gold.

Believe it or not doesnt concern me.


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## Security

I won't believe this since it didn't come from Iranian sources.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Dark side of India​*
*Had the time, money or energy spent on the CWG fiasco been invested to solve the problems of Naxalism, hunger, and poverty, India would have been praised for being really a democracy​*
Burhan Majid

Amidst all the public outrage and shame, India hosted the 19th Common Wealth Games (CWG) last month. The Games though aimed at boosting India&#8217;s image of an &#8220;economic power in making&#8221; ended up in a fiasco.

Scams and the scamsters involved in hosting the CWG shadowed the entire event. Indian media, of course, highlighted the malpractices in hosting of the CWG but it tightened its lips when the days got nearer. May be the policy was amended in the interest of &#8216;nationality&#8217; or &#8216;national interest&#8217;. Now when games are over, New Delhi based media is again up in arms.

The Games, the largest international multi- sport event staged in Delhi have ensued in grave violations of the human rights of the poor. The government resorted to forced evictions of street vendors and closed down shelter homes so as to present a sparkling, spick and span face of Delhi (read India) to the world. It demolished thousands of homes rendering tens of thousands of people down-and-out. It chased street vendors out of the city which resulted in the loss of livelihood opportunities for workers belonging to informal sectors thus affecting a minimum of 3,00,000 taxpayers of India.
According to reports the cost of the Games has turned out to be 114 times higher than the original estimates.

On the other side India was listed 67th out of 84 countries in the Global Hunger Index of 2010 by the International Food Policy Research Institute. India is home to 42 percent of the world&#8217;s underweight children and 31 percent of its stunted children as the GHI report suggests. India should ponder over these shocking figures. National conceit, too, has its limits. Imagine had Government of India allocated these huge sums of money (rather a small portion of it) to fight hunger and alleviate poverty it is badly suffering from. This would have really served the cause of democracy. Have they forgotten that 70 percent of their population live their lives for only Rs 20 per day? Somewhere I find relevance to what the known writer-activist Arundhati Roy recently said that &#8220;India is a corporate Hindu state&#8221;.

Hunger and poverty apart, India is facing the strongest ever public outcry in Kashmir, northeast and the deadly Naxalism in many of its states. While India was all busy in preparing to host the games, the democracy was at its worst in the Himalayan region.

Indian police and paramilitary troopers stationed in the region were on a killing spree to suppress the peaceful public protests thus killing more than 100 youth in less than four months which pushed the unrest to a point of no return. Interestingly, India claims to be the largest democracy on the planet earth.

Democracy, however, doesn&#8217;t stand for caging the people for months together, prevent them from offering religious obligations and force them to reel under shortage of life saving drugs and baby foods.

Not only has this Kashmir been left over with much more agonies. Agonies which nothing but painful: a wailing mother being carried on the stretcher carrying her son&#8217;s dead body on way to burial; a father shouldering the coffin of his only son. At times the physique is so miniature that the same father has to take him in his lap towards the lush green cemetery. Dreams shattered. Mourning continues. To be very honest writing it in a small piece wouldn&#8217;t suffice in as much as Kashmiris have a lot to say about the largest democracy.

There is a belief now on the streets of the valley that India has proved that Kashmiris no longer belong to it. Definitely so! The killings, arbitrary arrests, harassment, and other crimes they are committing against the Kashmiris increased the resentment among the people. So does the presence of draconian laws such as Armed Forces Special Powers Act, Disturbed Areas Act and Public Safety Act. If India needs Kashmiris rather Kashmir then they have to have revisit their policy and approach. In other words they should make Kashmiris feel that they really belong to mainstream India. Otherwise they have to face the wrath from the people.

A question arises here as to what is important and paramount for a country: games which turned out to be the costliest affair or the lives of the people, which constitute the country. There is a need to introspect.

The very recent &#8216;sedition row&#8217; is the result of this deliberate indifference of India towards the main issues confronted by Indians. Had India left no room for constructive criticism by seriously redressing the issues and grievances? The voices like Arundhati Roy would not have surfaced. However people like Roy merit admiration for voicing the concern confronted by the local Indians, in the broader context, are key to build a more vibrant democracy.

On the other hand, it is quite ludicrous to hear people like who said on a TV debate that &#8220;the moment you say that India is occupying Kashmir it amounts to sedition&#8221;. Right if this is the golden scale then Pandit Nehru was the first person to be charged with sedition. And the young chief minister of the state is next who falls in the category in the wake of what he said last month on the floor of the State Assembly.

The government of India should think beyond the rigorous of what they call &#8220;national pride&#8221;. This is the only way out to win the hearts of the people. Had all that (whether time, money or the brains) which was spent on the Common Wealth fiasco been invested with seriousness and honesty to solve the problems of Naxalism, hunger, poverty etc, India would have been praised for being really a democracy. Rather this would have added the real beauty to the Indian democracy. For democracies envisage reaching and listening to the people (even if dissent) rather than organising the stages for corruption and injustice to its own populace in the disguise of the so called development.

Dark side of India

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## unicorn

> Indian police and paramilitary troopers stationed in the region were on a killing spree to suppress the peaceful public protests thus killing more than 100 youth in less than four months which pushed the unrest to a point of no return. Interestingly, India claims to be the largest democracy on the planet earth.



I think it their democracy that is their root problem.They should get rid of it.


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## ajtr

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *Dark side of India​*
> *Had the time, money or energy spent on the CWG fiasco been invested to solve the problems of Naxalism, hunger, and poverty, India would have been praised for being really a democracy​*
> Burhan Majid
> 
> Amidst all the public outrage and shame, India hosted the 19th Common Wealth Games (CWG) last month. The Games though aimed at boosting Indias image of an economic power in making ended up in a fiasco.
> 
> Scams and the scamsters involved in hosting the CWG shadowed the entire event. Indian media, of course, highlighted the malpractices in hosting of the CWG but it tightened its lips when the days got nearer. May be the policy was amended in the interest of nationality or national interest. Now when games are over, New Delhi based media is again up in arms.
> 
> The Games, the largest international multi- sport event staged in Delhi have ensued in grave violations of the human rights of the poor. The government resorted to forced evictions of street vendors and closed down shelter homes so as to present a sparkling, spick and span face of Delhi (read India) to the world. It demolished thousands of homes rendering tens of thousands of people down-and-out. It chased street vendors out of the city which resulted in the loss of livelihood opportunities for workers belonging to informal sectors thus affecting a minimum of 3,00,000 taxpayers of India.
> According to reports the cost of the Games has turned out to be 114 times higher than the original estimates.
> 
> On the other side India was listed 67th out of 84 countries in the Global Hunger Index of 2010 by the International Food Policy Research Institute. India is home to 42 percent of the worlds underweight children and 31 percent of its stunted children as the GHI report suggests. India should ponder over these shocking figures. National conceit, too, has its limits. Imagine had Government of India allocated these huge sums of money (rather a small portion of it) to fight hunger and alleviate poverty it is badly suffering from. This would have really served the cause of democracy. Have they forgotten that 70 percent of their population live their lives for only Rs 20 per day? Somewhere I find relevance to what the known writer-activist Arundhati Roy recently said that India is a corporate Hindu state.
> 
> Hunger and poverty apart, India is facing the strongest ever public outcry in Kashmir, northeast and the deadly Naxalism in many of its states. While India was all busy in preparing to host the games, the democracy was at its worst in the Himalayan region.
> 
> Indian police and paramilitary troopers stationed in the region were on a killing spree to suppress the peaceful public protests thus killing more than 100 youth in less than four months which pushed the unrest to a point of no return. Interestingly, India claims to be the largest democracy on the planet earth.
> 
> Democracy, however, doesnt stand for caging the people for months together, prevent them from offering religious obligations and force them to reel under shortage of life saving drugs and baby foods.
> 
> Not only has this Kashmir been left over with much more agonies. Agonies which nothing but painful: a wailing mother being carried on the stretcher carrying her sons dead body on way to burial; a father shouldering the coffin of his only son. At times the physique is so miniature that the same father has to take him in his lap towards the lush green cemetery. Dreams shattered. Mourning continues. To be very honest writing it in a small piece wouldnt suffice in as much as Kashmiris have a lot to say about the largest democracy.
> 
> There is a belief now on the streets of the valley that India has proved that Kashmiris no longer belong to it. Definitely so! The killings, arbitrary arrests, harassment, and other crimes they are committing against the Kashmiris increased the resentment among the people. So does the presence of draconian laws such as Armed Forces Special Powers Act, Disturbed Areas Act and Public Safety Act. If India needs Kashmiris rather Kashmir then they have to have revisit their policy and approach. In other words they should make Kashmiris feel that they really belong to mainstream India. Otherwise they have to face the wrath from the people.
> 
> A question arises here as to what is important and paramount for a country: games which turned out to be the costliest affair or the lives of the people, which constitute the country. There is a need to introspect.
> 
> The very recent sedition row is the result of this deliberate indifference of India towards the main issues confronted by Indians. Had India left no room for constructive criticism by seriously redressing the issues and grievances? The voices like Arundhati Roy would not have surfaced. However people like Roy merit admiration for voicing the concern confronted by the local Indians, in the broader context, are key to build a more vibrant democracy.
> 
> On the other hand, it is quite ludicrous to hear people like who said on a TV debate that the moment you say that India is occupying Kashmir it amounts to sedition. Right if this is the golden scale then Pandit Nehru was the first person to be charged with sedition. And the young chief minister of the state is next who falls in the category in the wake of what he said last month on the floor of the State Assembly.
> 
> The government of India should think beyond the rigorous of what they call national pride. This is the only way out to win the hearts of the people. Had all that (whether time, money or the brains) which was spent on the Common Wealth fiasco been invested with seriousness and honesty to solve the problems of Naxalism, hunger, poverty etc, India would have been praised for being really a democracy. Rather this would have added the real beauty to the Indian democracy. For democracies envisage reaching and listening to the people (even if dissent) rather than organising the stages for corruption and injustice to its own populace in the disguise of the so called development.
> 
> Dark side of India


Thanks for pointing out atleast india will know now where to improve upon.

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## The Clarifier

Socom bhai... no point in this thread.

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## Nalwa

unicorn said:


> I think it their democracy that is their root problem.They should get rid of it.



I dont blame you for holding such opinion. This is what happens when you are ruled by military dictators for too long. You tend to believe their speeches and propaganda against democracy.

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## BATMAN

Kutt@_Bimar said:


> I dont blame you for holding such opinion. This is what happens when you are ruled by military dictators for too long. You tend to believe their speeches and propaganda against democracy.



There is no condition in democracy for not choosing military professional as head of state.
Pakistan always had elected P.M. and if you don't know that than i feel sorry for you.

Subject issue is about dark side of India. 
You should understand that it is so dark that their exist no word in dictionary for the acts your army is extending to the Kashmiris.

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## ajtr

famous kabir couplet..........................

Nindak niyare rakhiye, Angan kuti chawai,
bin pani sabun bina, nirmal kare subhaiy

&#1606;&#1740;&#1576;&#1589;&#1705; &#1606;&#1740;&#1585;&#1746; &#1585;&#1657;&#1705;&#1574;&#1578; &#1570;&#1606;&#1711;&#1606; &#1705;&#1746; &#1670;&#1740;&#1608;&#1575;&#1575;&#1740; &#1548; &#1576;&#1606; &#1662;&#1575;&#1606;&#1740; &#1589;&#1575;&#1576;&#1606; &#1576;&#1594;&#1740;&#1585; &#1606;&#1740;&#1585;&#1605;&#1604; &#1705;&#1585;&#1746; &#1587;&#1608;&#1575;&#1605;&#1593;&#1608;

&#2344;&#2367;&#2306;&#2342;&#2325; &#2344;&#2367;&#2351;&#2352;&#2375; &#2352;&#2366;&#2326;&#2367;&#2351;&#2375; &#2310;&#2305;&#2327;&#2344; &#2325;&#2369;&#2335;&#2368; &#2331;&#2357;&#2366;&#2319;, &#2348;&#2367;&#2344; &#2346;&#2366;&#2344;&#2368; &#2360;&#2366;&#2348;&#2369;&#2344; &#2348;&#2367;&#2344;&#2366; &#2344;&#2367;&#2352;&#2381;&#2350;&#2354; &#2325;&#2352;&#2375; &#2360;&#2381;&#2357;&#2366;&#2349;&#2366;&#2357; 

keep you critique near you that will make you know about your weaknesses. 

Keep your critiques close to you, let their hut be in your courtyard,
That way you don&#8217;t need soap n water to cleanse your nature.

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## Fireurimagination

BATMAN said:


> There is no condition in democracy for not choosing military professional as head of state.
> Pakistan always had elected P.M. and if you know that than i feel sorry for you.



Sure they can but the one that came to power in Pakistan (Including the so called PMs), where not chosen by the people now where they?



> Subject issue is about dark side of India.
> You should understand that it is so dark that their exist no word in dictionary for the acts your army is extending to the Kashmiris.



Every country/society/individual on the face of this planet has a dark side and no darkness in/of India is tons brighter than many if not all of the countries of this planet


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## Security

And for your kind information Riyadh and Tehran both have rejected Wikileaks reports and termed those reports as release not leaks.


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## Rafi

Iran's support for the cause of Kashmiri liberation should indeed be lauded.

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## BATMAN

^^Please, name a single Pakistani P.M. who was not elected.


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## Ammyy

I like the last line 



> the so called development.




Hope this can help


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## Rain

Every country has Dark Sides even the best developed ones too, so nothing to worry about for indian defense estabishment ppl here on ther forum!


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## ajtr

forget kashmir even whole pakistan is an integral part of *Indian* subcontinent and not even single pakistani deny it.


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## FullMetalJacket

Seems the Kashmiri people aren't going to be independant any time soon. Picture India and Pakistan like two little brothers, and Kashmiri being a toy.


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## Fasih Khan

FullMetalJacket said:


> Seems the Kashmiri people aren't going to be independant any time soon. Picture India and Pakistan like two little brothers, and Kashmiri being a toy.



Indians would be the last I'd call Brothers in the whole Universe. *We Got Shame.*


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## Nalwa

BATMAN said:


> There is no condition in democracy for not choosing military professional as head of state.
> Pakistan always had elected P.M. and if you don't know that than i feel sorry for you.


Yeah you can have a PM but then they only last so long as the COAS wants. So it will be illogical to talk about a PM. Why are you restricting your logic to just a PM? Lets talk about heads of state. What were Mushy, Zia and Ayub for years before they held their sham elections? Yes, dictators. Perhaps you'hv forgotten the number of coups that Pakistan has seen.


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## Ammyy

Fasih Khan said:


> Indians would be the last I'd call Brothers in the whole Universe. *We Got Shame.*



Well just one thing for you 

Pakistanis pose as Indians after NY bomb scare | Reuters

I dnt want to start troll but just take care your words

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## AMCA

When did we last listen to pakistan?? lol .... Anyways What have they got to do in our Internal issue which even the United Nations Does no Longer accept disputed?


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## hembo

Never liked Ms. Roy.

Never liked Nehru either...

Charge them both with sedition...

Could not be more happier....


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## jayron

Fasih Khan said:


> Indians would be the last I'd call Brothers in the whole Universe. *We Got Shame.*



may I ask why?


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## KS

Joe Shearer said:


> No doubt that comes as an unwelcome shock to you. Did you think this normal behaviour, something to be encouraged? Did you think breaking the law and breaking down the Babri Masjid was lawful? *Did you think that killing 2,000 Muslims in riots*, with the police helpfully standing by, was legal? Did you think wrecking cinema houses that show films featuring your activities in a bad light is legal? Did you think destroying a museum lawful?



First it was not 2000 Muslims --- it was 750 Muslims and around 300 Hindus.

Secondly Police were standing helplessly not because they wanted tio do so --- but because they were unable (ill-trained,ill-equipped,under-manned) to stop such a huge,spontaneous outbreak of violence. A malaise that afflicts most of our police forces.


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## Joe Shearer

Karthic Sri said:


> First it was not 2000 Muslims --- it was 750 Muslims and around 300 Hindus.



Let us, for the sake of argument, accept your figures as the correct ones. If you wish, I can provide evidence separately that this break-up is inaccurate, but the point lies elsewhere.

I take it that your vigorous and robust participation in another thread on what democracy has brought to India indicates your broad support for democracy. I take it also, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, that the rule of law also has some meaning for you.

Is it then your case that a section of the citizenship, equal voting subjects of India, should be burnt alive, cut to bits, raped and murdered and otherwise slaughtered and this is justifiable? 

Is it your case that if 2,000 of them were to be slaughtered, you oppose it, but if 750 are slaughtered, and another 300 of another section also die, you would then support it? 

Is it your case that if a single Indian citizen, innocent of any crime, dies at the hands of a rioting mob, you would justify it?

Is it your case that if 35 people die in Chromepet, you are justified in slaughtering 750 people in Madurai, who have had nothing whatsoever to do with the Chromepet incident? 



Karthic Sri said:


> Secondly Police were standing helplessly not because they wanted tio do so --- but because they were unable (ill-trained,ill-equipped,under-manned) to stop such a huge,spontaneous outbreak of violence. A malaise that afflicts most of our police forces.



You have a point. It is quite true that most of our police forces are ill-trained, ill-equipped and under-manned and are for that reason unable to function properly.

Was it so in the case of the Gujarat riots? Are you sure - please take time to think of your answer, of the evidence available, and of the facts on record before responding - that this is what happened? 

Would you be prepared for me to display in a Pakistani forum the vast array of evidence that shows that the Home Minister, seemingly under the influence of a higher authority, instructed the police to hold back, and directed police parties from place to place to keep them away from the scene of rioting, and prevent them from interfering? 

Would you care to contradict evidence that the police actively supported the rioters, when they were not happily complying with the orders of the Home Minister?

At the end of the day, I have a fundamental question for you: When we take pride in our democracy and in our rule of law, and in our system where all citizens are equal, and all citizens can demonstrate peacefully without being assaulted, and we are shocked by the indifference to human life displayed by a dictatorship, where men standing unarmed in the path of tanks are cold-bloodedly run over, can you justify these incidents and still continue to be proud of democracy? 

Or would you rather uphold democracy and the rule of law, and condemn these incidents, and work to prevent them?


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## KS

If you want to know the essence of my post please go directly to the post script,else continue.



Joe Shearer said:


> Unfortunately, the answer for a series of mistakes is not to point at a countervailing series of mistakes.



Exactly --- But when the mistakes of one group of people are overlooked or swept under the carpet attributing a specious meaning to the word 'Secularism' and the mistakes of the other group is magnified again attributing a malicious meaning to the word 'Hindutva' it becomes necessary to show the mirror to those self-professed 'Secularists'.




Joe Shearer said:


> _Sikhs getting slaughered in thousands = A MISTAKE._
> 
> It was not; it was *ethnic violence in its worst form*, and it is a national shame that it is not pursued in the courts and the perpetrators, all of whom are known politicians and thugs in Delhi, brought to justice. Please do not use the Congress Party's excuses to justify Sangh Parivar excesses and similar acts of genocide.



Exactly --- Then how come they call themselves Secularists and media too hails them as one while painting a negative picture on the Sangh ?

Call them too Communalist Fanatics.



Joe Shearer said:


> _Hindus pandits getting killed in Kashmir = Political problem._
> 
> Again, this was an act of _communal bias_, and is the blackest stain in the face of Kashmiri secularism and inter-faith tolerance. Now we have a Hurriyat excuse being used to *justify the Sangh.*



This I would not agree --- The protestors were Kashmiri Pandits and the man they thrashed represented those bigots who were responsible for this plight of the Pandits.He deserved it.

They might have been members of RSS/VHP ,but they were Pandits first. 



Joe Shearer said:


> _Poor protestors getting shot in WB under Left Govt = Misunderstanding._
> 
> Well done; you have managed to rope in the Congress Party, the Hurriyat and the CPI(M), and shown that they too are guilty of horrible crimes against humanity. How does that justify the Sangh Parivar?



To show that the Congress/Left and all other doyens of secularism are equally if not more at fault than the Sangh ever was.



Joe Shearer said:


> _But,Muslims getting killed by a few hundred = Holocaust/Pogrom/Genocide._
> 
> So let us have your enlightened Sanghi opinion: do you want us to call it "A MISTAKE", a "political problem", or a "Misunderstanding"? And are you comparing the numbers?



I dont care whatever you call it --- but call the same for all the four incidents.Not a separate term for each one depending on who committed it.

---------------------------------------------------


Joe Shearer said:


> _Banning Parzania in Gujarat = Communal._
> 
> _Banning Da Vinci Code and Jo Bole So Nihaal = Secular_
> 
> Again, two wrongs making a right, it would appear.



So accpet that the second one was wrong ?? Unfortunately for you our 'Secularists' dont think so.
---------------------------------------------------


Joe Shearer said:


> _Reservations in every school and college on caste lines = Secular. _
> _Reservations in Minority institutions = Communal._
> 
> In your zeal and fervour, you seem to have slipped. There is constitutional protection for minority institutions. If you consult your local Sangh chalak, he will no doubt ask you to club that also as communal. You may have to do extra drill and starch your khaki chadddis extra stiff in expiation. You are to be commiserated with; calling reservations in minority institutions "communal" was at worst a Mistake, a political problem (of understanding) or a Misunderstanding.



Apart from the slander and the condescending tone an educated,'secularist' might have for the RSS,the rest is also complete BS. 

What I m doing is questioning the very basis for that Constitutional protection ---- Are the minorities any special humans than the majority for giving them that extra 'protection' and then they have the gall to call it secularism.

----------------------------------------------------


Joe Shearer said:


> _Talking about Hindus and Hinduism appeasment = Communal._
> 
> Perhaps you need to re-write this passage; *appeasing Hindus is hardly communal.* Appeasing, BTW, means avoiding conflict by making concessions to a threatening enemy; how does this fit your phrase? Are Hindus and Hinduism threatening, or have they been receiving concessions?



Lol...I shudder to think what would be the reaction of the 'secular' junta if some BJP Govt announces subsidy for Kashi/Amarnath Yatra.Perhaps you can think of it.



Joe Shearer said:


> _Talking about Muslims,Christians and Islam = Secular._
> 
> Don't you think an 80+% majority can afford to be accommodating? Do you find even talking about them offensive? Presuming that secular is an offensive term to you, as it frequently is for Sanghis.



We 'are' accomodating -- thats why in a 80% Hindu majority country the minority population is still growing and safe.

But the question is why should we be extra accomodating --- Arent all Indians regardless of their religion supposed to be equal?

Or is this the case of some are more equal than others ?
----------------------------------------------------


Joe Shearer said:


> _Not hanging Afzal Guru the mastermind despite Supreme Court orders = Humanity and Political dilemma/May affect Muslim sentiments_
> 
> How does *delay in a judicial execution* equate to communal riot and murder and burning alive an elected MP who made repeated appeals to the Chief Minister before being killed?



It is equated by the 'secularists' condemning RSS/VHP for whatever ills that are there, conviniently forgetting thet are greater communalists than the Sangh can ever be.
----------------------------------------------------


Joe Shearer said:


> _BJP questioning Islam = Communal._
> _Congress/Historians questioning Lord Ram's existance = Clerical Error._
> 
> Islam is history, recorded by its opponents as well as by its supporters. Lord Rama is myth, even according to a fanatic BJP-ite. What do you mean by clerical error, by the way?



Now now ---- is there any hard evidence for a Prophet to have lived 1400 years ago or a Holy man to have born in Bethlehem 2 millenium ago ?

Except Sikhism ,the founders of no other religions can be proved that they existed.
----------------------------------------------------


Joe Shearer said:


> _The man who said "When a big tree falls the ground beneath it shakes" is honored with his name being used for every new airport,stadium,sea link etc._
> 
> Disgraceful. Does this justify slaughtering Muslims and Christians?
> 
> _The man who was the CM during the Guj riots is a modern incarnation of Hitler._
> 
> And what else was Hitler but the head of state while Jews were being exterminated? Is it your case that he personally pressed the buttons to release Cyklon B?



I just wanted to show the mirror to the proponents of what si called now 'pseudo-secularism'.

If the RSS are terrorists,then the ruling party of India is certainly a more apt candidate. But then they favour the minorities so they automatically become secularists. lol

----------------------------------------------------


Joe Shearer said:


> _While every Human rights activist/political party worth his saly fights for Muslim victims of th Guj riots , no one cares for the 58 Karsevaks killed intially and the 250 killed later in the riots by the Mulsim mobs._
> 
> It might come as a surprise to you to learn *that enquiries into the matter have cast grave doubts on the story of Muslim mobs setting fire to the railway coach.* Look up the facts. And this is not to justify a loss of life, nor the deaths of the innocent. Those rioters who were killed in self-defence is a different matter, but we aren't talking about that, are we?



What better can I expect when there are no arguments left ? Put on a conspiracy theory.

The Nanavati commision has clearly stated that it was indeed a pre-planned conpsiracy by the local Muslim goons.

-----------------------------------------------------


Joe Shearer said:


> _While a bomb blast in which a fringe group is among the suspects,it gets dubbed as "Hindu Terror" while in the case of its much famous cousin it becomes "Terrorism has no religion" and "innocent muslim youths are victimised"_
> 
> Bigots are bigots on both sides. Which one are you citing to justify the other? It's a circular argument, don't you see?



Yes bigots are bigots on both sides --- You say so,but our secular junta doesnt think so. 
------------------------------------------------------


Joe Shearer said:


> _In a supposedly secular society Mulsims are given subsidy to go for Hajj ; while Hindus going to Amarnath Yatra are not even allotted proper land_
> 
> And why didn't the BJP government and its coalition not stop this subsidy when it was in power?



Good question --- It was the vote bank compulsions and not aggravating the already negative image of it that has been Goebbelised by the Secular junta and its cohort the media.

Sad but true.
--------------------------------------------------------


Joe Shearer said:


> _Supreme court orders in the Shah Bano case subverted to maintain Muslim sentiments.
> But Allahabad court verdict for Ayodhya questioned as faith cannot determine law._
> 
> Again, why should the wrongs committed by the Congress (in the Shah Bano case, a shocking miscarriage of justice, forced on the nation by a spineless administration) serve as justification for someone else?
> 
> Does this act of blatant interference by a political party, reversing a judicial decision by act of Parliament, justify a bad judicial decision?



Maybe I'm getting cliched ,but I ll say for one last time --- I agree with you that two wrongs doesnt make a right. But if only one wrog is higlighted and the other is obfuscated isnt it my right to point it out ?
---------------------------------------------------------


Joe Shearer said:


> _M.H Hussain drawing Godess Saraswati nude = Freedom of free speech
> But Danish cartoon activist should be condemned as it hurts Muslim sentiments_
> 
> Again, the same error.
> 
> Hussain certainly had and has the right of free artistic expression, and it has nothing to do with the noxious and unpardonable verbal attacks on the Danish cartoonist. Both should be condemned, not one taken as an excuse to justify the other.



Same as above.



*P.s.:*I am just stating that two wrongs does not make a right (borrowed from you), But in our supposedly secular country where every citizen is equal irrespective of his religion (supposed to be),its always the misdeeds of the Sangh that is highlighted branding them as communalists,fascists and what not.

But the other equally culpable group always throws in the canard of secularism and potrays itself as some kind of angel which is disgusting to some people like me who would want them condemn both the groups if they have done any misdeed which unfortunately is the case here.

So unless a more equal handed approach irrespective of the religion is there, dont expect everyone to have your same opinion on the RSS. And calling the Sangh alone as terrorists insults our collective intelligence.


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## Nalwa

I would certainly classify the RSS as a terrorist org based on its own and its allied orgs' actions in Gujarat riots and the under-investigation Malegaon blasts.


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## KS

Joe Shearer said:


> Let us, for the sake of argument, accept your figures as the correct ones. If you wish, I can provide evidence separately that this break-up is inaccurate, but the point lies elsewhere.



I would like to have a look at that evidence.



Joe Shearer said:


> I take it that your vigorous and robust participation in another thread on what democracy has brought to India indicates your broad support for democracy. I take it also, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, that the rule of law also has some meaning for you.



Lol...I cherish my democracy despite for all its shortcomings. Better than being ruled by a form of Govt that decides how many times I should prove my virility. 



Joe Shearer said:


> Is it then your case that a section of the citizenship, equal voting subjects of India, should be burnt alive, cut to bits, raped and murdered and otherwise slaughtered and this is justifiable?
> 
> Is it your case that if 2,000 of them were to be slaughtered, you oppose it, but if 750 are slaughtered, and another 300 of another section also die, you would then support it?



See we dont live in a perfect society (as much as I would like to) --- Given our past history ,I would not be entirely wrong in saying that Hindu-Muslim relations have always been restive. Not entirely hostile nor amiable.

It was always a haystack waiting for that tiny matchstick to burn it down.

What I'm saying is why complain to the haystack if you could very well control the matchstick ?



Joe Shearer said:


> Is it your case that if a single Indian citizen, innocent of any crime, dies at the hands of a rioting mob, you would justify it?
> 
> Is it your case that if 35 people die in Chromepet, you are justified in slaughtering 750 people in Madurai, who have had nothing whatsoever to do with the Chromepet incident?



I am in no way justifying it. But this entire Guj riots should be seen together and not as a single incident in isolation. 

Whats the use in looking at the consequence if you are not willing to look at the root cause ?




Joe Shearer said:


> You have a point. It is quite true that most of our police forces are ill-trained, ill-equipped and under-manned and are for that reason unable to function properly.
> 
> *Was it so in the case of the Gujarat riots?* Are you sure - please take time to think of your answer, of the evidence available, and of the facts on record before responding - that this is what happened?



Of course !



Joe Shearer said:


> Would you be prepared for me to display in a Pakistani forum the vast array of evidence that shows that the Home Minister, seemingly under the influence of a higher authority, instructed the police to hold back, and directed police parties from place to place to keep them away from the scene of rioting, and prevent them from interfering?
> 
> Would you care to contradict evidence that the police actively supported the rioters, when they were not happily complying with the orders of the Home Minister?



On this very same forum some weeks back I gave the evidence on another thread--- but given the enormity of the thread being created everyday, I need some time in digging it.



Joe Shearer said:


> At the end of the day, I have a fundamental question for you: When we take pride in our democracy and in our rule of law, and in our system where all citizens are equal, and all citizens can demonstrate peacefully without being assaulted, and we are shocked by the indifference to human life displayed by a dictatorship, where men standing unarmed in the path of tanks are cold-bloodedly run over, can you justify these incidents and still continue to be proud of democracy?
> 
> Or would you rather uphold democracy and the rule of law, and condemn these incidents, *and work to prevent them*?



The bolded part is the most important point --- working to prevent them.

That includes identifying the root cause of the riots also and of course the perperators of the second part. Unless *there is a witch hunt on both the sides* there cannot be any condemnations from my side and I cannot support a one-sided witch hunt (in this case the supposed perperators of the second episode in Guj)


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## zip

Brothers and sisters
Our beloved country demanded a lot from us when it was just a hope.Our ancestor gave their soul ,life, loved one,lived like vegetables and a hope got materialized.After its birth our countrymen started to dream for a bright future for our country..They fought with thousand of obstacles,worked for it ,They passed their dream to us now..Dream-burden to dedicate our soul so that soul of this country remain strong.Dream-burden to have patience,trust,knowledge..Sometimes we may have to walk through vacuum..Entertaining a dream called India is not easy ..It demands many sacrifices.When it comes to religion many of our brothers hesitate and become protectionists .There may be thousand reasons to deviate but there is only one thing which makes us to lift another step towards our dream is dream itself and that is INDIA not a particular religion.


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## S_O_C_O_M

what happened to all the members here who used to say i enjoy the freedom of speech we have here in india.


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## Ammyy

S_O_C_O_M said:


> what happened to all the members here who used to say i enjoy the freedom of speech we have here in india.



Good Question 

We have double standard policy ....... Do you have any problem


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## Subramanian

Joe Shearer said:


> And my comment was very simply that having a lot of literate - not necessarily educated - people around is not a distinction.
> 
> For what its worth, there are far more IIT and IIM people outside shakhas, supporting parties opposed to the BJP and the Sangh Parivar. That includes sons of RSS members. In case you are wondering, you only have to be a member of IIT and IIM alumni sites and mailing lists to know this.
> 
> Unfortunately, to be a member, one needs to have gone to the IITs or to the IIMs; a ridiculous restriction, as I am sure you will consider this.
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately not true.
> 
> The quality of the history taught in secondary schools is well known - biased bullshit it is, and the bias runs in several directions, depending on the political complexion of the Education Minister. There are chains of RSS schools, as has been mentioned in PakTeaHouse by illustrious graduates of these strange institutions, where history is excluded to the maximum extent possible. Picking up bits and pieces from popular literature (as one member of this forum who subscribes to your views does) is not a good substitute.
> 
> 
> 
> True; and who is to do that? A technician with vast knowledge of tools and no knowledge of society or the economy, or a social scientist with a good grounding in these? What precisely do you mean by taking responsibility and running the country? A military dictatorship perhaps? They are also well-trained professionals, and accustomed to command large numbers of people.
> 
> Would it be possible to learn what you think will work?
> 
> 
> 
> And when they run a state in a chaotic manner, who is at fault? Look at Karnataka, where a thief is in charge, selling government land to his son and son-in-law. Or look at the former president of the BJP, now arraigned by another eminent and very much better known member of the BJP of toeing a particular industrial house's line. Was that because he was in love with the head of the house?
> 
> 
> 
> Rioting and violence is against the law of the land.
> 
> No doubt that comes as an unwelcome shock to you. Did you think this normal behaviour, something to be encouraged? Did you think breaking the law and breaking down the Babri Masjid was lawful? Did you think that killing 2,000 Muslims in riots, with the police helpfully standing by, was legal? Did you think wrecking cinema houses that show films featuring your activities in a bad light is legal? Did you think destroying a museum lawful?
> 
> There was nothing wrong with confronting Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, and Shankar Raychaudhury did so with logic and reasoning, and shut him up. There was everything wrong with turning up as a violent mob and trying to break in, and the perpetrators were rightly arrested.
> 
> 
> 
> And your solution? To take the law into your own hands? What happens when someone else, who doesn't like you, does the same, and has more people backing him, more guns and bigger guns, and less scruples? Where do you plan to go then, for help?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> I happen to think that slapping anybody is unlawful. That he is Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has nothing to do with it. He could be Narendra Modi, and it would be just as unlawful.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean, 'u r right'? That is from your fevered imagination, not my words at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Just curiousity; what else do you do but trust the administration to elected representatives.
> 
> Some more curiousity: what is your proposed alternative?
> 
> 
> 
> Presumably this means something. Do feel free to explain. What violins? What burning? What advertisement? Does this also mean that you have no ideals? In which case, what is the ground on which you resist all those horrible things that elected people do?
> 
> 
> 
> You see no contradiction in this? Everyone has the right to say things, except people like Arundhati Roy: is that it?
> 
> What if Arundhati Roy and 1,500 people march to your house, and want to show you your place, saying that ignoring your abusive nonsense is not enough?
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all.
> 
> All of you Sanghis are so full of self-pity that you don't stop to listen.
> 
> I don't remember having supported the Congresss or the leftists. So whom are you referring to? Is it your case that if a person doesn't support the Sangh, he/she must support equally corrupt parties?
> 
> And do feel free to offer your alternative to democracy.
> 
> Considering that this is a Pakistani forum, you will have a large and interested audience.




1.There could be a lot of people in IITs/IIMs who support other parties opposite to the RSS but thats not the point.The point is that just like all parties RSS,which is a social organization has support amongst all sorts of people.

2.You think social scientists are not biased?Dont you think they also get funded by someone else and that someone else can use it to advance their agenda.All historians are biased and there is no price for their integrity.They make it a speculative affair.What you accuse one of doing,is possible for another source also?


3.I dont believe the current form of democracy is useful for the country.I dont know what is better but i dont like what i see now.A military dictatorship would not be too bad but i would favour a dictatorship involving the bureaucracy and the military.

4.Which CM is not corrupt,which party is not corrupt?All of them are the same and they all need money to run their parties and campaigns.But even in this the congress stands tall.

5.Regarding rioting and violence,i would like to repeat the RSS is not for it.they do not support lawlessness in any form,definitely not street violence.The VHP and others are different.

I am completely against all this,all that violence u mentioned but i feel the reaction that happened


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## faisaljaffery

Who said Mirwise to go and adress the hindu pandits its just like Ringing a been in front of a buffalow


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## twoplustwoisfour

Subramanian said:


> 1.There could be a lot of people in IITs/IIMs who support other parties opposite to the RSS but thats not the point.The point is that just like all parties RSS,which is a social organization has support amongst all sorts of people.



OK, this is getting ridiculous. Lets get one thing straight. Most people from IITs/IIMs DON'T HAVE A POLITICAL OPINION. They are not politically active, and don't care for whatever party that comes to power. Most of them don't have the time to worry about such issues. All they care about is their CVs and Jobs.

How do I know? I graduated from IIM Lucknow, class of 2009.

You want to see people who actively participate in politics, go to Delhi University, go to JNU etc and you'll find discussions on politics. In IITs/IIMs, all the discussion is focused on Theraja & Theraja, Kotler or ****. Seriously.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

DRDO said:


> Well just one thing for you
> 
> Pakistanis pose as Indians after NY bomb scare | Reuters
> 
> I dnt want to start troll but just take care your words



not once have i encountered this phenomenon in NYC or DC for that matter.....though I did meet a pro-Pakistan deccan taxi driver and a guy working at ''Nuts 4 Nuts'' who was Bengali and said he's from "East Pakistan'' (I corrected him about the name of his country and he playfully dismissed it)


Actually, overseas Pakistanis are usually the MOST patriotic. But maybe those are just my observations. 


what you are doing is not only resorting to sensationalism, but you are also going off-topic. Therefore I question your character somewhat. Stay on topic, otherwise pack your bags.





FullMetalJacket said:


> Picture India and Pakistan like two little brothers, and Kashmiri being a toy.



you can say what you want; indian are not our ''brothers'' and never will be

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## Abu Zolfiqar

ajtr said:


> forget kashmir even whole pakistan is an integral part of *Indian* subcontinent and not even single pakistani deny it.



what a great logic; Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman are all Arab countries in the PERSIAN Gulf.......

so what's your point?


----------



## Joe Shearer

Re: Indias terrorists 

_If you want to know the essence of my post please go directly to the post script, else continue._

By all means let us start from the "essence of your post", as there is some common ground that I can find  I think. It remains to be seen. In every instance, you have just held up somebody else's crimes as a justification for the crimes committed by people you support. How is that a justification? 

Let me ask you how you would react to a parallel situation. If you were the judge trying Ajmal Kasab, and he pleaded that he was not at fault alone, that terrorists had committed frightful crimes during the Munich Olympics as well, would you make any allowance for him? Or would you say that the two have nothing to do with each other, and that he had to pay for his crime regardless of who else has committed such crimes.

And that's what I have to say about the Sangh Parivar.

_I am just stating that two wrongs does not make a right (borrowed from you), But in our supposedly secular country where every citizen is equal irrespective of his religion (supposed to be),its always the misdeeds of the Sangh that is highlighted branding them as communalists, fascists and what not._

It is good to see that we are agreed that two wrongs do not make a right. Please be sure that there are many who condemn communal violence even when the Sangh is not involved. But whoever commits communal violence, whether the Sangh Parivar or any other, will have to listen to being told that they are communal.

And it is your individual perception that it is always the Sangh that is highlighted as communalist or fascist. There are many of us who have condemned, and continue to condemn the Congress killings of Sikhs as the worst kind of communal violence; many of us who remember those difficult days, when every bearded Sikh caused a feeling of fear, condemn the communal killings of the Bhindranwale supporters and later, the Khalistanis; many of us condemn the exercise of muscle power and abuse of their political power by the Muslims against Taslima Nasreen.

Please also remember that communalist or bigoted/bigot, and fascist are two different categories, and while I will personally use them against a religious intolerance and a political intolerance respectively, I will not use them indiscriminatingly.

_But the other equally culpable group always throws in the canard of secularism and potrays itself as some kind of angel which is disgusting to some people like me who would want them condemn both the groups if they have done any misdeed which unfortunately is the case here.

So unless a more equal handed approach irrespective of the religion is there, dont expect everyone to have your same opinion on the RSS. And calling the Sangh alone as terrorists insults our collective intelligence. _

Sorry, not my problem. 

I dont belong to the Congress, nor do I support the Congress. As far as their secularism is concerned, in my opinion, it is no secularism at all. If you wish to examine my public record, I will send you my nickname by personal message, and you can check the records at PakTeaHouse, at least up to nearly two years ago.

I have gone on record, again and again, for years on end, condemning the hypocrisy of the Congress, and the belligerence of the Muslim Mullahs. When I say strong things about the Sangh Parivar, it is part of this resistance to violence against a helpless number of people, against a violation of the rule of law, and against imposing the views of a section of people on another section by force or by intimidation. 

Regarding your mysterious reference to calling the Sangh as terrorists, who is this who called them terrorists? Some members of the Hindu right wing were; it has not yet been proved that they were members of the RSS. If it comes to that, I dont recall having called the Sangh Parivar terrorist; if I did, it would be on fair and just grounds. 


Originally Posted by Joe Shearer 
*Unfortunately, the answer for a series of mistakes is not to point at a countervailing series of mistakes.*

_Exactly --- But when the mistakes of one group of people are overlooked or swept under the carpet attributing a specious meaning to the word 'Secularism' and the mistakes of the other group is magnified again attributing a malicious meaning to the word 'Hindutva' it becomes necessary to show the mirror to those self-professed 'Secularists'._

Dont you get it? Showing the other group that they are wrong still doesnt justify what your group has done wrong. You are still wrong. If you commit a murder, you cant appeal to the trial judge for mercy or for extenuating circumstances because there are other people who commit murder. The two facts are not connected in the eyes of the law. 

Originally Posted by Joe Shearer 
*Sikhs getting slaughered in thousands = A MISTAKE.*

*It was not; it was ethnic violence in its worst form, and it is a national shame that it is not pursued in the courts and the perpetrators, all of whom are known politicians and thugs in Delhi, brought to justice. Please do not use the Congress Party's excuses to justify Sangh Parivar excesses and similar acts of genocide.*

_Exactly --- Then how come they call themselves Secularists and media too hails them as one while painting a negative picture on the Sangh ?

Call them too Communalist Fanatics._

Which part of my statement above did you not understand? 
As far as your opponents are concerned, they may call themselves anything; what is that to me, and how does it justify the misdeeds of those you support? Why should I not condemn the Sangh Parivar? I am neither the media, nor do I support the Congress.

Originally Posted by Joe Shearer 
*Hindus pandits getting killed in Kashmir = Political problem.*

*Again, this was an act of communal bias, and is the blackest stain in the face of Kashmiri secularism and inter-faith tolerance. Now we have a Hurriyat excuse being used to justify the Sangh.*

_This I would not agree --- The protestors were Kashmiri Pandits and the man they thrashed represented those bigots who were responsible for this plight of the Pandits.He deserved it.

They might have been members of RSS/VHP ,but they were Pandits first. 
_
I dont care if they were Pandits or zebras; they had no right to take the law into their own hands. That is for the courts to take up. Otherwise, they are in no way better than the hoodlums and terrorists that drove them out.

We cannot call ourselves democrats and in the next breath justify mob violence, no matter how extreme the provocation.

Originally Posted by Joe Shearer 
*Poor protestors getting shot in WB under Left Govt = Misunderstanding.*

*Well done; you have managed to rope in the Congress Party, the Hurriyat and the CPI(M), and shown that they too are guilty of horrible crimes against humanity. How does that justify the Sangh Parivar?*

_To show that the Congress/Left and all other doyens of secularism are equally if not more at fault than the Sangh ever was._

Again, you dont understand. This is not a defence; the Sangh is, by your own admission, still at fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shearer 
*But,Muslims getting killed by a few hundred = Holocaust/Pogrom/Genocide.*

*So let us have your enlightened Sanghi opinion: do you want us to call it "A MISTAKE", a "political problem", or a "Misunderstanding"? And are you comparing the numbers?*

_I dont care whatever you call it --- but call the same for all the four incidents.Not a separate term for each one depending on who committed it._

Sure.
They are all crimes, punishable under the law.

---------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shearer 
*Banning Parzania in Gujarat = Communal.

Banning Da Vinci Code and Jo Bole So Nihaal = Secular 
*
*Again, two wrongs making a right, it would appear.*
_
So accpet that the second one was wrong ?? Unfortunately for you our 'Secularists' dont think so._

When I say that the Sangh Parivar is guilty of crime, it is no use telling me that others are equally criminal. In this case, it is the Sangh Parivar under discussion. Others crimes do not justify their crimes.
---------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shearer 
*Reservations in every school and college on caste lines = Secular. 
Reservations in Minority institutions = Communal.*

*In your zeal and fervour, you seem to have slipped. There is constitutional protection for minority institutions. If you consult your local Sangh chalak, he will no doubt ask you to club that also as communal. You may have to do extra drill and starch your khaki chadddis extra stiff in expiation. You are to be commiserated with; calling reservations in minority institutions "communal" was at worst a Mistake, a political problem (of understanding) or a Misunderstanding.*

_Apart from the slander and the condescending tone an educated,'secularist' might have for the RSS, the rest is also complete BS. 

What I m doing is questioning the very basis for that Constitutional protection ---- Are the minorities any special humans than the majority for giving them that extra 'protection' and then they have the gall to call it secularism._

You may question it. Just as Arundhati Roy may question the continued inclusion of Kashmir within India. It is your right to question the constitution, and consider portions of it written by Ambedkar improper, as you have done above. It is similarly her right, or Mirwaiz Umar Farooqs right to question the constitution. 

For both of you, the situation is the same: until you can change the constitution, this is what it is, this is what it will be. If you want to change it, you are welcome to do it by approaching it the way the constitution can be amended. If you succeed, the constitution stands changed, legally. If you fail, you cant take to the streets and try to get your ends that way.

As far as the rest of us are concerned, you are both equally pains in the, er, elbow, and we are determined to ensure that you get to say what you think, irrespective of being pains.

----------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shearer 
*Talking about Hindus and Hinduism appeasment = Communal.*

*Perhaps you need to re-write this passage; appeasing Hindus is hardly communal. Appeasing, BTW, means avoiding conflict by making concessions to a threatening enemy; how does this fit your phrase? Are Hindus and Hinduism threatening, or have they been receiving concessions?*

_Lol...I shudder to think what would be the reaction of the 'secular' junta if some BJP Govt announces subsidy for Kashi/Amarnath Yatra. Perhaps you can think of it._

Nobody stopped the BJP government in power doing just that. Did they even try? And by the way: pilgrimage to Manasarowar is subsidized, so just remember, it isnt one-sided at all. The numbers differ; nobody, but nobody, stopped any of the governments at the centre from subsidizing Hindu (or Christian, or Sikh) pilgrimages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shearer 
*Talking about Muslims,Christians and Islam = Secular.*

*Don't you think an 80+% majority can afford to be accommodating? Do you find even talking about them offensive? Presuming that secular is an offensive term to you, as it frequently is for Sanghis.*

_We 'are' accomodating -- thats why in a 80% Hindu majority country the minority population is still growing and safe.

But the question is why should we be extra accomodating --- Arent all Indians regardless of their religion supposed to be equal?

Or is this the case of some are more equal than others ?_

No, not at all. Accommodating means to give a minority a feeling of confidence in their country, not to give them a feeling that they are under constant threat. If to do this, we give them minor concessions which do not affect the rights of the majority, why should the majority object? If we do not, how are we different from Pakistan?
----------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shearer 
*Not hanging Afzal Guru the mastermind despite Supreme Court orders = Humanity and Political dilemma/May affect Muslim sentiments*

*How does delay in a judicial execution equate to communal riot and murder and burning alive an elected MP who made repeated appeals to the Chief Minister before being killed?*

_It is equated by the 'secularists' condemning RSS/VHP for whatever ills that are there, conviniently forgetting thet are greater communalists than the Sangh can ever be.
_
How does it help to have two sets of communalists? Only the minorities suffer while your two sets of bigots and communalists try to score points against each other. And the equation has nothing to do with the matter, as you should have understood by now.
----------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shearer 
*BJP questioning Islam = Communal.
Congress/Historians questioning Lord Ram's existance = Clerical Error.
*
*Islam is history, recorded by its opponents as well as by its supporters. Lord Rama is myth, even according to a fanatic BJP-ite. What do you mean by clerical error, by the way?*

_Now now ---- is there any hard evidence for a Prophet to have lived 1400 years ago _

Yes. There are contemporary Byzantine records and records from kingdoms in the Middle East. These are for the life of the Prophet Mohammed. You might like reading the Fall of the Roman Empire, by Gibbon. This is why I dont encourage people like you to write on such subjects before you get some background in the subject.

_or a Holy man to have born in Bethlehem 2 millenium ago ?_

The evidence is scantier, but there *is* evidence. We are in historical times now; these started earlier in the Mediterranean and Europe because of more extensive records and archaeological finds. The equivalent in India starts with 330 BC for European parallel reporting and synchronisation of dates, and approximately 122 BC for Chinese parallel sources and synchronisation of dates (based on the report of Zhang Qian in 122 BC to the Yuanshou Emperor about finding Sichuan and Qiong fabrics and bamboo products in Daxia = Bactria, which originated in the southern land, Shendu).

_Except Sikhism ,the founders of no other religions can be proved that they existed._

Why are you making absurd statements? We are in historical times from 499 BC in Greece, and slightly later in Rome.
----------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shearer 
*The man who said "When a big tree falls the ground beneath it shakes" is honored with his name being used for every new airport,stadium,sea link etc.*

*Disgraceful. Does this justify slaughtering Muslims and Christians?*

*The man who was the CM during the Guj riots is a modern incarnation of Hitler.*

*And what else was Hitler but the head of state while Jews were being exterminated? Is it your case that he personally pressed the buttons to release Cyklon B?*

_I just wanted to show the mirror to the proponents of what si called now 'pseudo-secularism'.

If the RSS are terrorists,then the ruling party of India is certainly a more apt candidate. But then they favour the minorities so they automatically become secularists. Lol_

Not so at all. 

You keep trying to exculpate the Sangh Parivar by pointing to the faults of others. Please understand, that is not a defence. And it is especially not a defence against someone who charges you with crimes who does not belong to the other violators of the laws but is neutral between them.

----------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shearer 
*While every Human rights activist/political party worth his saly fights for Muslim victims of th Guj riots , no one cares for the 58 Karsevaks killed intially and the 250 killed later in the riots by the Mulsim mobs.
*
*It might come as a surprise to you to learn that enquiries into the matter have cast grave doubts on the story of Muslim mobs setting fire to the railway coach. Look up the facts. And this is not to justify a loss of life, nor the deaths of the innocent. Those rioters who were killed in self-defence is a different matter, but we aren't talking about that, are we?*

_What better can I expect when there are no arguments left ? Put on a conspiracy theory._

_The Nanavati commision has clearly stated that it was indeed a pre-planned conpsiracy by the local Muslim goons._

Many of the conclusions of the Nanavati Commissions conclusions have been controverted in the Supreme Court, and many more are under question. No independent enquiry, of which there have been several, has been convinced that there was a burning from outside of the fatal coach.

-----------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shearer 
*While a bomb blast in which a fringe group is among the suspects,it gets dubbed as "Hindu Terror" while in the case of its much famous cousin it becomes "Terrorism has no religion" and "innocent muslim youths are victimised"*

*Bigots are bigots on both sides. Which one are you citing to justify the other? It's a circular argument, don't you see?*

_Yes bigots are bigots on both sides --- You say so,but our secular junta doesnt think so. 
_
I am not in the least bit concerned with weighing the relative misdeeds of the two sides. In this case, do you think the Sangh Parivar is bigoted or dont you? Leave out the Congress; what is your view about the Parivar?
------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shearer 
*In a supposedly secular society Mulsims are given subsidy to go for Hajj ; while Hindus going to Amarnath Yatra are not even allotted proper land*

*And why didn't the BJP government and its coalition not stop this subsidy when it was in power?*

_Good question --- It was the vote bank compulsions and not aggravating the already negative image of it that has been Goebbelised by the Secular junta and its cohort the media._

*Dont you feel this is a weak excuse? Dont you think other parties can argue the same?*

_Sad but true._

We are left to conclude that the Sangh Parivar and its supporters are powerless to do anything while they run the ministry, and can take neither administrative nor legislative action, and their only way of expressing their point of view is through criminal breaches of the peace in the streets.
--------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shearer 
*Supreme court orders in the Shah Bano case subverted to maintain Muslim sentiments.
But Allahabad court verdict for Ayodhya questioned as faith cannot determine law.*

*Again, why should the wrongs committed by the Congress (in the Shah Bano case, a shocking miscarriage of justice, forced on the nation by a spineless administration) serve as justification for someone else? 

Does this act of blatant interference by a political party, reversing a judicial decision by act of Parliament, justify a bad judicial decision?*

_Maybe I'm getting cliched ,but I ll say for one last time --- I agree with you that two wrongs doesnt make a right. But if only one wrog is higlighted and the other is obfuscated isnt it my right to point it out ?_

Again, I point out  one wrong doesnt cancel out another. In no way; at no time. You are welcome to point out crimes committed by others, but this does not affect crimes committed by those whom you support.
---------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shearer 
*M.H Hussain drawing Godess Saraswati nude = Freedom of free speech
But Danish cartoon activist should be condemned as it hurts Muslim sentiments*

*Again, the same error. 

Hussain certainly had and has the right of free artistic expression, and it has nothing to do with the noxious and unpardonable verbal attacks on the Danish cartoonist. Both should be condemned, not one taken as an excuse to justify the other.
*
_Same as above._

And again  somebody else behaving like a donkey doesnt give you the right to behave like a donkey.



P.s.:_I am just stating that two wrongs does not make a right (borrowed from you), But in our supposedly secular country where every citizen is equal irrespective of his religion (supposed to be),its always the misdeeds of the Sangh that is highlighted branding them as communalists,fascists and what not.

But the other equally culpable group always throws in the canard of secularism and potrays itself as some kind of angel which is disgusting to some people like me who would want them condemn both the groups if they have done any misdeed which unfortunately is the case here.

So unless a more equal handed approach irrespective of the religion is there, dont expect everyone to have your same opinion on the RSS. *And calling the Sangh alone as terrorists insults our collective intelligence.* 
_

I am not sure if you realise what you have achieved.

You raised the Sangh and its policies, with no justification.

It was challenged; you responded with the argument that others were guilty of the same crimes, and should be treated equally as criminals. 

In other words, you have converted the matter to a criminalisation of both major sections of Indian democracy. And, in addition, you also failed to notice that in all this, the Sangh Parivar's acts have come out as criminal acts by their being equated with other acts that you have described in strong terms. 

Please think carefully about what you plan to write before writing it. 'Satam bado, ma likho.'

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## Joe Shearer

twoplustwoisfour said:


> OK, this is getting ridiculous. Lets get one thing straight. Most people from IITs/IIMs DON'T HAVE A POLITICAL OPINION. They are not politically active, and don't care for whatever party that comes to power. Most of them don't have the time to worry about such issues. All they care about is their CVs and Jobs.
> 
> How do I know? I graduated from IIM Lucknow, class of 2009.
> 
> You want to see people who actively participate in politics, go to Delhi University, go to JNU etc and you'll find discussions on politics. In IITs/IIMs, all the discussion is focused on Theraja & Theraja, Kotler or ****. Seriously.



Thank you for your timely intervention.

'Joe Shearer' IIMC (Class of 74)


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## KS

Joe Shearer said:


> Re: India&#8217;s terrorists
> 
> _If you want to know the essence of my post please go directly to the post script, else continue._
> 
> By all means let us start from the "essence of your post", as there is some common ground that I can find &#8211; I think. It remains to be seen. In every instance, you have just held up somebody else's crimes as a justification for the crimes committed by people you support. How is that a justification?
> 
> Let me ask you how you would react to a parallel situation. If you were the judge trying Ajmal Kasab, and he pleaded that he was not at fault alone, that terrorists had committed frightful crimes during the Munich Olympics as well, would you make any allowance for him? Or would you say that the two have nothing to do with each other, and that he had to pay for his crime regardless of who else has committed such crimes.
> 
> And that's what I have to say about the Sangh Parivar.



Thanks for giving this example.

If the terrorists at Munich would have escaped unpunished and if they were to give lectures after 20 years about compassion and religious tolerance and the world was to listen to it --- then I, as the judge of Ajmal Kasab,would have no other way other than to pardon him on the ground he may become a saint later in his life.

I hope you can relate the above example to our modern day Munich terrorists (Congress,the doyen of India's secularism) and Kasab (Sangh).

And this is my argument.

Two wrongs dont make a right --- but what if one of them is *NOT *considered a wrong and only the other is accused of wrong ?

Its not you, who I am complaining of exhibiting double standards --- its the general media,the supposedly educated elite who have fallen for this and I am complaining about them and I expect you to acknowledge that such a mis-conception is prevalent in our society.

And since this is the recurring theme in my post ,I ll save you further trouble of reading and basically the format you ve quoted is also a bit tough on my eyes.

And again I have no were condoned Sangh's violent activities if any.Punish them by all means but dont punish them alone ---- they are just one side of the coin.Take a look at the other side also.

But if people were to support the other side blindly because of religion then , I have to take the Sangh's side and I have no qualms in it.





Joe Shearer said:


> I am not sure if you realise what you have achieved.
> 
> You raised the Sangh and its policies, with no justification.
> 
> It was challenged; you responded with the argument that others were guilty of the same crimes, and should be treated equally as criminals.
> 
> In other words, you have converted the matter to a criminalisation of both major sections of Indian democracy. And, in addition, you also failed to notice that in all this, the Sangh Parivar's acts have come out as criminal acts by their being equated with other acts that you have described in strong terms.



My point is simple --- Treat all criminals as one. If you dont then I dont consider the Sangh as a criminal.

i dont think I have contradicted myself anywhere.


----------



## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> you can say what you want; indian are not our ''brothers'' and never will be



Exactly ---- why dont these people understand that.??

We willl never be and If I may say so,never want to be 'Brothers'.
*
On topic :* Is this some kinda practical joke ??


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## deckingraj

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> not once have i encountered this phenomenon in NYC or DC for that matter.....though I did meet a pro-Pakistan deccan taxi driver and a guy working at ''Nuts 4 Nuts'' who was Bengali and said he's from "East Pakistan'' (I corrected him about the name of his country and he playfully dismissed it)



I am sorry sir but may be you are those lucky chaps who have not faced problems in NYC or DC...As far as i am concerned i am a Sikh but often mistaken to be likes of Taliban...Believe me i have heard lot of racial slurs from west-coast to east-coast.....Having said that some idiots are there is any society and there should not be any surprise that US has equal share of them...

Though it is unfortunate if someone has to pretend and hide their nationality...but then it all depends on the individual...Regarding your encounter with the Taxi driver then it is not much of significance, i have met many Pakistani's here(especially from Punjab) who will behave more warm than fellow Indian's from east/south....




> Actually, overseas Pakistanis are usually the MOST patriotic. But maybe those are just my observations.



Yes, this is just your own observation. The only difference is that they are away from their home town and they don't have to deal with the pathetic beuracratic system all the time. As an analogy consider this : When you are far away from your loved one's you remember only good things whereas people who are living day in and day out tend to fight more....




> what you are doing is not only resorting to sensationalism, but you are also going off-topic. Therefore I question your character somewhat. Stay on topic, otherwise pack your bags.


I am sure this applies to people irrespective of what nation flag they are hosting...So thnxs for the stern warning...



> you can say what you want; indian are not our ''brothers'' and never will be



And there is no need for it...Even if we start living like good neighbours that would be more than enough...No need to be brother's/sister's....

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## Abu Zolfiqar

keeping that in mind, doesnt mean we cant treat eachother with mutual respect and dignity; and not meddle around with eachother

trade and cooperation goes a longer way.......but it makes sense to resolve outstanding disputes in fair and professional manner

unfortunately, there is lack of will on both sides


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## BS_Buster

Fasih Khan said:


> Indians would be the last I'd call Brothers in the whole Universe. *We Got Shame.*



Your post portray that you are a hate sick.


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## BS_Buster

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> you can say what you want; indian are not our ''brothers'' and never will be



"Indians are not our brother 
Indians are not our brother 
Indians are not our brother 
Indians are not our brother 
Indians are not our brother 
Indians are not our brother 
Indians are not our brother,"



who is asking? 

*why on earth we will be your brother? what it bring to us?*


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## Dance

BS_Buster said:


> "Indians are not our brother
> Indians are not our brother
> Indians are not our brother
> Indians are not our brother
> Indians are not our brother
> Indians are not our brother
> Indians are not our brother,"
> 
> 
> 
> who is asking?
> 
> *why on earth we will be your brother? what it bring to us?*



Your fellow indian said we were like brothers. So stop trolling and stick to the topic


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## desioptimist

Sorry Karthik, are you suggesting, that just because we could not punish somebody in the past, we will continue to do so for other criminals (even in future).

As an ordianary Indian citizen, who does not have connection with congress/sangh/left, I would want all criminals to be brought to book.

This thread was particularly about sangh, hence please provide merit in sangh's agenda.


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## ajtr

*India tells Pak to end its illegal occupation of J&K​*

NEW YORK: Stating that Jammu and Kashmir is an internal matter of India, external affairs minister S M Krishna has asked Pakistan to end its illegal occupation of some parts of the state before advising New Delhi. 

"Kashmir is an internal matter of India," said Krishna, who is here on a 10-day visit to attend the annual UN General Assembly meeting. 

Pointing out that Pakistan is in "illegal occupation of some parts of Jammu and Kashmir", Krishna said, "it is desirable that they vacate that and then start advising India as to how to go about doing things in Kashmir." 

"We have taken certain actions in terms of assisting what needs to be done in Kashmir... An all party delegation has just gone back to Delhi and they have had wide ranging discussions across the board from all shades of opinion. 

"So, Government of India is fully conscious of its responsibilities... institutional mechanism and individual mechanism will be put in place so that the genuine grievances of Kashmir and the people of Kashmir will be addressed squarely and directly," the external affairs minister told TV news channel.

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## ajtr

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> what a great logic; Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman are all Arab countries in the PERSIAN Gulf.......
> 
> so what's your point?




Samajhne waale samajh gaye hain,Jo na samjhe woh anari hain.


YouTube - Woh Chand Khila Woh Taare Hanse - musicworldofindia.com


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## Abu Zolfiqar

ajtr said:


> *India tells Pak to end its illegal occupation of J&K​*
> 
> NEW YORK: Stating that Jammu and Kashmir is an internal matter of India, external affairs minister S M Krishna has asked Pakistan to end its illegal occupation of some parts of the state before advising New Delhi.
> 
> "Kashmir is an internal matter of India," said Krishna, who is here on a 10-day visit to attend the annual UN General Assembly meeting.
> 
> Pointing out that Pakistan is in "illegal occupation of some parts of Jammu and Kashmir", Krishna said, "it is desirable that they vacate that and then start advising India as to how to go about doing things in Kashmir."
> 
> "We have taken certain actions in terms of assisting what needs to be done in Kashmir... An all party delegation has just gone back to Delhi and they have had wide ranging discussions across the board from all shades of opinion.
> 
> "So, Government of India is fully conscious of its responsibilities... institutional mechanism and individual mechanism will be put in place so that the genuine grievances of Kashmir and the people of Kashmir will be addressed squarely and directly," the external affairs minister told TV news channel.



such blatantly immature and factually incorrect statements don't even deserve a modicum of attention from our Foreign Office.......

why?


because these people are what we can call delusional; not in touch with any ground-realities in the *disputed territory*


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> such blatantly immature and factually incorrect statements don't even deserve a modicum of attention from our Foreign Office.......
> 
> why?
> 
> 
> because these people are what we can call delusional; not in touch with any ground-realities in the *disputed territory*



India should raise this issue in UN


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> India should raise this issue in UN



i guess falsely labelling the CPRF ccupation forces as UN "Peacekeepers" will help them win that _kursi_ @ Security Council ehhh?


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## Ammyy

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> India should raise this issue in UN



Dnt wary just wait till India become permanent member in UNSC then we will see..


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## Abu Zolfiqar

no need at all for us to ''wary''

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## GentlemanObserver

DRDO said:


> Dnt wary just wait till India become permanent member in UNSC then we will see..



All im going to say is don't put all your eggs in one basket.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Omelette with goat cheese and double roti tastes great in the early hours of the morning

give Mr. Krishna Omelette because it seems maybe he was on empty stomach when he went on his baseless diatribe.......thus far he fails to convince!

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## F-16_Falcon

DRDO said:


> Dnt wary just wait till India become permanent member in UNSC then we will see..



bharat cannot become a permanent member until it do not get support fro Pakistan. we have huge influence and international support in Muslim world. 

Pakistan rejects Indian bid for SC permanent seat

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/79336-pakistan-rejects-indian-bid-sc-permanent-seat.html


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## justanobserver

F-16_Falcon said:


> bharat cannot become a permanent member until it do not get support fro Pakistan. we have huge international support in Muslim world.



Sure you do.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/81541-uae-backs-indias-bid-permanent-un-security-council-seat.html

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## Ammyy

F-16_Falcon said:


> bharat cannot become a permanent member until it do not get support fro Pakistan. we have huge influence and international support in Muslim world.
> 
> Pakistan rejects Indian bid for SC permanent seat
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/79336-pakistan-rejects-indian-bid-sc-permanent-seat.html



Do you think we care about Pakistan 

Lot of Pakistani member laughing when we are talking about Nuke deal with America 
every one told that its not possible but deal was signed *without Pakistani support * 

read this one 
*
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...ndia-whole-heartedly-permanent-unsc-seat.html*


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## F-16_Falcon

justanobserver said:


> Sure you do.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/81541-uae-backs-indias-bid-permanent-un-security-council-seat.html



one or two do not matter! uae and saudis are out of our control. recent saudi king's comment against our president was not good and pakistanis did not like it. pakistan has influence in turkey and other muslim powers.


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## F-16_Falcon

DRDO said:


> Do you think we care about Pakistan
> 
> Lot of Pakistani member laughing when we are talking about Nuke deal with America
> every one told that its not possible but deal was signed *without Pakistani support *
> 
> read this one
> *
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...ndia-whole-heartedly-permanent-unsc-seat.html*



You are another bharti fanboy. this bharti propaganda is busted by us many times. so stop wasting my time. there are many more countries which will not in favor of india's unsc under pakistan's pressure and influence.


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## KS

justanobserver said:


> Sure you do.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/81541-uae-backs-indias-bid-permanent-un-security-council-seat.html



Add Syria,Morocco,Malaysia,Indonesia,Oman,Kazakhstan,Uzbekistan,Tajikistan,Qatar,Maldives,Brunei,Nigeria,Libya,Niger,Djibouti,Kyrgzstan also to it.

All OIC countries.


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## Ammyy

F-16_Falcon said:


> one or two do not matter! uae and saudis are out of our control. recent saudi king's comment against our president was not good and pakistanis did not like it. pakistan has influence in turkey and other muslim powers.



just go to the link above your post you will find out how many muslim countries support us


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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> Add Syria,Morocco,Malaysia,Indonesia,Oman,Kazakhstan,Uzbekistan,Tajikistan,Qatar,Maldives,Brunei,Nigeria,Libya,Niger,Djibouti also to it.
> 
> All OIC countries.



Not a worthy support if this country isn't included in the so called support for your supposed permanent seat in UN. 

And let me tell you aren't getting it either.


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## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> Not a worthy support if this country isn't included in the so called support for your supposed permanent seat in UN.
> 
> *And let me tell you aren't getting it either*.



Some thing like you said when nuke deal was came to news 

Isnt it ?????


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## Abu Zolfiqar

i dont know why these indians have to go on yapping, speculating and flapping their arms here and there on something which hasn't even taken place yet


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## Areesh

DRDO said:


> Dnt wary just wait till India become permanent member in UNSC then we will see..



And how many decades we have to wait for this even though we don't "wary" for it.


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## Areesh

DRDO said:


> Some thing like you said when nuke deal was came to news
> 
> Isnt it ?????



With staple visa policy in place you shouldn't question it dear.

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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

well its old news....so what


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## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> With staple visa policy in place you shouldn't question it dear.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/53451-china-back-india-s-unsc-bid.html

And wait for Chinese president`s India visit


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## Areesh

DRDO said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/53451-china-back-india-s-unsc-bid.html
> 
> And wait for Chinese president`s India visit



Diplomacy buddy diplomacy. Things aren't the same as they look to common people. Actually actions speak louder than words. And we have action to deny these words based on "diplomacy". 

By the way Chinese president would visit Pakistan too.


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## Paan Singh

Areesh said:


> Diplomacy buddy diplomacy. Things aren't the same as they look to common people. Actually actions speak louder than words. And we have action to deny these words based on "diplomacy".
> 
> By the way Chinese president would visit Pakistan too.



i would love to see the power of diplomacy of both countries.


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## Jade

Areesh said:


> And how many decades we have to wait for this even though we don't "wary" for it.



If you don't want to wait, why don't you people support India...

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## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> Diplomacy buddy diplomacy. Things aren't the same as they look to common people. Actually actions speak louder than words. *And we have action to deny these words based on "diplomacy". *
> 
> By the way Chinese president would visit Pakistan too.





India and China are biggest trade partner and China also dnt want that India make lobby with USA so they cant oppose India openly


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## Areesh

DRDO said:


> India and China are biggest trade partner and China also dnt want that India make lobby with USA so they cant oppose India openly



Trade partners!!! 

As I said ask your "trade partner" to change the policy of staple visas on IOK and you would get the the ultimate response of your "trade partner" about your so called integrity related to IOK.

They already oppose you dear on many fronts, you just have to realize it.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> Diplomacy buddy diplomacy. *Things aren't the same as they look to common people.* Actually actions speak louder than words. And we have action to deny these words based on "diplomacy".
> 
> By the way Chinese president would visit Pakistan too.



Exactly --- Things arent what common people tend to see.

Anyways first it was the 'US wont allow you'.Now that Obama has explicitly supported it became 'China wont support you'. Well who knows tomorrow it may become 'Somalia wont support you'.


----------



## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> Trade partners!!!
> 
> As I said ask your "trade partner" to change the policy of staple visas on IOK and you would get the the ultimate response of your "trade partner" about your so called integrity related to IOK.
> 
> They already oppose you dear on many fronts, you just have to realize it.



I like your frustration 

They are selling lot of things to Pakistan buddy so they just want to make Pakistan happy and about visa policy and support for UNSC just wait for their presidents visit like obama he will also surprise you


----------



## F-16_Falcon

DRDO said:


> just go to the link above your post you will find out how many muslim countries support us



most of the muslim countries are against india's unsc seat. they are in support of pakistan for kashmir. does turkey support you? no.


----------



## Ammyy

F-16_Falcon said:


> most of the muslim countries are against india's unsc seat. they are in support of pakistan for kashmir. does turkey support you? no.



Same question to you 

Does turkey support you on Kashmir ????


----------



## Paan Singh

F-16_Falcon said:


> most of the muslim countries are against india's unsc seat. they are in support of pakistan for kashmir. does turkey support you? no.



oh man,oic consists of 57 countries.wat the ydid to india and more than half of them are american stooges which is run by israel.so dont get confused here.


----------



## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> Exactly --- Things arent what common people tend to see.
> 
> Anyways first it was the 'US wont allow you'.Now that Obama has explicitly supported it became 'China wont support you'. Well who knows tomorrow it may become 'Somalia wont support you'.




First influence your "trade partner" to change it's policy which kicks the as$ of your integrity on IOK, UNSC bid is a much bigger issue. 

May be just may be, you might succeed in winning their support for UNSC bid after you save your "integrity" being violated by them.


----------



## Areesh

DRDO said:


> I like your frustration
> 
> They are selling lot of things to Pakistan buddy so they just want to make Pakistan happy and about visa policy and support for UNSC just wait for their presidents visit like obama he will also surprise you



You have every right to be optimistic. Optimism is good.


----------



## Ammyy

Areesh said:


> First influence your "trade partner" to change it's policy which kicks the as$ of your integrity on IOK, UNSC bid is a much bigger issue.
> 
> May be just may be, you might succeed in winning their support for UNSC bid after you save your "integrity" being violated by them.



And you are talking on behalf of China 

World is changing very fast and you think China believe Pakistan 100% even after American presents in Pakistan???? 

Diplomacy dude diplomacy


----------



## Paan Singh

Areesh said:


> First influence your "trade partner" to change it's policy which kicks the as$ of your integrity on IOK, UNSC bid is a much bigger issue.
> 
> May be just may be, you might succeed in winning their support for UNSC bid after you save your "integrity" being violated by them.



i think u r self fighting on the behalf of chinese,where as on the other hand chinese dont feel to fight.so stop thinking that others also view with same lense as u.


----------



## Areesh

DRDO said:


> And you are talking on behalf of China
> 
> World is changing very fast and you think China believe Pakistan 100% even after American presents in Pakistan????
> 
> Diplomacy dude diplomacy



As I said you have every right to remain optimistic. We all know many Bharatis have a delusional world of their own and they never agree to leave it. 

The world is changing and so are the Chinese, that's why they have started to openly oppose Bharat on IOK issue.


----------



## KS

Areesh said:


> First influence your "trade partner" to change it's policy which kicks the as$ of your integrity on IOK, UNSC bid is a much bigger issue.



Kicks our a$$  We have a Tibetan Govt in exile 

And whats the use of stapled visas ?? Can anyone come inside our border without getting shot. 

Anyway if that helps you sleep tight thinking 'oooo our friend has given stapled visa' who am I to disturb you.



Areesh said:


> May be *just may be*, you might succeed in winning their support for UNSC bid after you save your "integrity" being violated by them.



Last time I heard China was crying through their rear that we are violating their integrity by hosting a Tibetan govt in exile.


----------



## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> Kicks our a$$  We have a Tibetan Govt in exile




You know you are hilarious buddy. You are also confirming that your chances of getting chinese support for your UNSC bid are negligible. By the way give the so called Tibetan govt the VVIP status. Chinese won't mind if guys waste your money on some idiots. They can return the favor for your hostility by denying the support to your bid.



> And whats the use of stapled visas ?? Can anyone come inside our border without getting shot.



They aren't entering your border genius(may be in Ladakh they had) they are issuing visas to Kashmiris as non Inidian citizens and thus kicking the as$ of your supposed integrity on IOK.



> Anyway if that helps you sleep tight thinking 'oooo our friend has given stapled visa' who am I to disturb you.



But what about the support for your UNSC bid from your "trade partner"? Gone into the space. 



> Last time I heard China was crying through their rear that we are violating their integrity by hosting a Tibetan govt in exile.



Again you confirmed that you aren't going to get Chinese support for UNSC bid. Keep it up.


----------



## KS

Areesh said:


> You know you are hilarious buddy. You are also confirming that your chances of getting chinese support for your UNSC bid are negligible. By the way give the so called Tibetan govt the VVIP status. Chinese won't mind if guys waste your money on some idiots. They can return the favor for your hostility by denying the support to your bid.



Chinese members say that China has problems only with Japan and not with India.
But Pak members shouting from rooftops that China will not support India.

Now that is some hilarious stuff 




Areesh said:


> They aren't entering your border genius(may be in Ladakh they had) they are issuing visas to Kashmiris as non Inidian citizens and thus kicking the as$ of your supposed integrity on IOK.



Lol your comprehension skills are going south these days..Thats what I too said genius.They can create all this hoopla.But what has changed on ground - Nilch.




Areesh said:


> But what about the support for your UNSC bid from your "trade partner"? Gone into the space.



No --dont worry it will be a 'bolt from the blue' for the likes of you. 




Areesh said:


> Again you confirmed that you aren't going to get Chinese support for UNSC bid. Keep it up.



Whatever makes you happy darlin.


----------



## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> Chinese members say that China has problems only with Japan and not with India.
> But Pak members shouting from rooftops that China will not support India.
> 
> Now that is some hilarious stuff



And it will support your bid for UNSC when you are hosting the so called Tibetan govt in India and has border disputes with you. Do you think they are dumb or you are? Pick your choice. They have problems with you dear and you also know it.



> Lol your comprehension skills are going south these days..Thats what I too said genius.They can create all this hoopla.But what has changed on ground - Nilch.



South means tamil nadu. No buddy it applies to you.

Anyways you didn't get what I said. They are already doing many things on the ground and on the papers. You just need to search for them. And that includes staple visas too.



> No --dont worry it will be a 'bolt from the blue' for the likes of you.



It is a dumb from the Bharati right now.



> Whatever makes you happy darlin.



Good.


----------



## KS

Areesh said:


> And it will support your bid for UNSC when you are hosting the so called Tibetan govt in India and has border disputes with you. Do you think they are dumb or you are? Pick your choice. They have *problems with you dear and you also know it*.



Not big enough like the one between us (India and Pak) and they know it. 



Areesh said:


> South means tamil nadu. No buddy it applies to you.



As I suspected...When you confuse geography with part of speech (idiom) then I'm sure what I said is true .lolzzz



Areesh said:


> Anyways you didn't get what I said. They are already doing many things on the ground and on the papers. You just need to search for them. And that includes staple visas too.



Can you please elaborate what they are doing on ground without our knowledge ?? And we never gave the chance for the stapled visa to be implemented on ground  Think.



Areesh said:


> It is a dumb from the Bharati right now.



Hahaha let a Chinese say that --- Not a Pakistani. Oops I forgot you guys also do part-time job as the external affairs spokesperson for China.So I will believe it.


----------



## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> Not big enough like the one between us (India and Pak) and they know it.



It's big enough to oppose your bid buddy. And you will definitely make it bigger. 



> As I suspected...When you confuse geography with part of speech (idiom) then I'm sure what I said is true .lolzzz



I know that was an idiom. You still didn't get the meaning of that line. Keep thinking about it, may be some day you might understand it. 



> Can you please elaborate what they are doing on ground without our knowledge ?? And we never gave the chance for the stapled visa to be implemented on ground Think.



Search for it. I am not going to help you on this one. They are trade partners of yours, you should better know about them. 



> Hahaha let a Chinese say that --- Not a Pakistani. Oops I forgot you guys also do part-time job as the external affairs spokesperson for China.So I will believe it.



Why a chinese. Would you accept that you are a dumb if they say that. Good. Relations are improving between you both in this sense.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> It's *big enough *to oppose your bid buddy. And you will definitely make it bigger.



Says who ....



Areesh said:


> I know that was an idiom. You still didn't get the meaning of that line. Keep thinking about it, may be some day you might understand it.



Not a good comeback ---- a comeback nevertheless. And I can take the credit for teaching you a new idiom in English "Going south" 




Areesh said:


> Search for it. I am not going to help you on this one. They are trade partners of yours, you should better know about them.



A nice way of saying --- 'I dont know'. Man, you are improving nowadays. 



Areesh said:


> *Why a chinese*. Would you accept that you are a dumb if they say that. Good. Relations are improving between you both in this sense.



Because they are the citizens of China, a country that is supposed to block the evil Bhartis from entering the UNSC.  Let them say that. And I guess you are counting your chickens even before the mother Hen is born ! Not a good practice,I would say.

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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> Says who ....



Says history. Says your spanking in 1962. Says many Bharatis. Says orange media. And many more. 



> Not a good comeback ---- a comeback nevertheless. And I can take the credit for teaching you a new idiom in English "Going south"



But you still didn't able to get what I said to you. May be your comprehension skills are also on a tour to it's home town. Call it back before posting again. 



> A nice way of saying --- 'I dont know'. Man, you are improving nowadays.



But you didn't. That's why still showing restrainet in leaving your delusional mini world of China's supposed support for Bharat's UNSC bid. Might be you may improve also. But any ways they are doing many things on ground. Search for it buddy. Your own orange media might help you in this regards. 



> Because they are the citizens of China, a country that is supposed to block the evil Bhartis from entering the UNSC. Let them say that.



Yup they also have the right to call you dumb. I have no problem in questioning this right.



> And I guess you are counting your chickens even before the mother Hen is born ! Not a good practice,I would say.



Again this applies more to you buddy not me. Think again.


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## misterme2

Indian Infantry said:


> The same could be said of Pakistan. What I fail to grasp is just how does a small boy expect a larger one to return him his bicycle when he is constantly punching, pulling hair, throwing tantrums etc., in short merely adding to the frustration and anger of the larger one who knowing how well the boy is capable of handling his belongings is also morally against handing over his bicycle as he realizes that the smaller one is incapable of handling his possessions responsibly.




Totally agree with you....Pakistan's tactics have come out to the open. Unfortunately, the American public is woefully under-informed about the realities. I have noticed that Americans generally don;t know much about the terrorist issues regarding kashmir and don;t see how Pakistan has supported these terrorists. There are no freedom fighters in this world in this century, they're all labeled as terrorists. India should go in to massive overdrive to educate and articulate what exactly is going on from the INDIAN point of view. This will help solve the problem quicker and it will bring the American public's tacit approval for the bigger picture which is PEACE.


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## Irfan Baloch

Indian Infantry said:


> The same could be said of Pakistan. What I fail to grasp is just how does a small boy expect a larger one to return him his bicycle when he is constantly punching, pulling hair, throwing tantrums etc., in short merely adding to the frustration and anger of the larger one who knowing how well the boy is capable of handling his belongings is also morally against handing over his bicycle as he realizes that the smaller one is incapable of handling his possessions responsibly.



my boy, its not a bicycle. its a question of the wishes of tens of thousands of people who's right of freedom was robbed off them.

desipte Indian efforts the truth is out and the sacrificies of the Kashmiri people , their constant marches their rejection of Indian occupation is evident that they just dont want to be under Indian rule.

this is exactly what the people of subcontinent did back in 1857 against the mightiest empire the world had ever seen. it may appear that all the efforts and sacrifices were wasted away and the British Empire brutally crushed the rebalian but the seed was sowed which resulted in the formation of two indipendent states.

Indians might be smug about their military and economic power they may be smug about the world's selfish bullies to be on their side but the fact remains that the Indian state is working against the history.. 
the forced opperession has always failed in the past and will fail this time too.

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## KS

Areesh said:


> Says history. Says your spanking in 1962. Says many Bharatis. Says orange media. And many more.



Again Pakistanis owning the achievements of their friends. Or is that they say Pakistan defeated India in 1962 in your history books ?



Areesh said:


> But you still didn't able to get what I said to you. May be your comprehension skills are also on a tour to it's home town. Call it back before posting again.



For replying to you ,I dont need to use it .Its in reserve for some other good posters. 




Areesh said:


> But you didn't. That's why still showing restrainet in leaving your delusional mini world of China's supposed support for Bharat's UNSC bid. Might be you may improve also. But any ways they are doing many things on ground. Search for it buddy. Your own orange media might help you in this regards.



But The Orange media says so:

China may match Obama support for India for UNSC seat | The Asian Age

China Might Support India for UNSC Permanent Seat

No wait---- Did you mean the Orange media of ours or the Green media of yours ?



Areesh said:


> Yup they also have the right to call you dumb. I have no problem in questioning this right.



Thats what Im saying -- Let them say it.Not you.




Areesh said:


> Again this applies more to you buddy not me. Think again.



Hehehe already four hens (US,UK,Russia and France) have laid their eggs --- Not long before the fifth hen too lays.Till them enjoy !


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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> Again Pakistanis owning the achievements of their friends. Or is that they say Pakistan defeated India in 1962 in your history books ?



Huh. Again the problem of lack of comprehension skills comes in between. Wonder why didn't you call your comprehension skills back from Tamil Nadu(South).

Any ways still you didn't get the message behind the phrase you quoted.



> For replying to you ,I dont need to use it .Its in reserve for some other good posters.



And fortunately in this case you Bharatis lack good posters leaving one or two. They are as "good" as you are.



> But The Orange media says so:
> 
> China may match Obama support for India for UNSC seat | The Asian Age
> 
> China Might Support India for UNSC Permanent Seat
> 
> No wait---- Did you mean the Orange media of ours or the Green media of yours ?



Again the lack of comprehension skills comes in between. Still you didn't understand what I asked you to search for in orange media. Read the post I quoted and than make the search buddy. 



> Hehehe already four hens (US,UK,Russia and France) have laid their eggs --- Not long before the fifth hen too lays.Till them enjoy !


 
Ok *self appointed frontrunner*. You can enjoy in your delusional mini world even when the fifth hen won't support you. So Enjoy.


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## muSALMAN Khan

Jana said:


> RSS and groupies have a long list at their credit including killing Gandhi.



I fully support killing of Gandhi.
He did nothing for the nation (don't forget,including Pakistan),he was in favor of hanging BhagatSingh,the one who laid his life happily for his nation(He was born in Lahore)

Gandhi was a scared old man.
I feel sorry to regard him as the father of our nation.

P.S:Not to hurt anyone,thats my personal opinion.


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## AR

muSALMAN Khan said:


> I fully support killing of Gandhi.
> He did nothing for the nation (don't forget,including Pakistan),he was in favor of hanging BhagatSingh,the one who laid his life happily for his nation(He was born in Lahore)
> 
> Gandhi was a scared old man.
> I feel sorry to regard him as the father of our nation.
> 
> P.S:Not to hurt anyone,thats my personal opinion.



many hold that point.... but he too did some good tasks like non violence ....

there are negative points of every human being


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## Rig Vedic

Joe Shearer said:


> But who authorised them? And why do they persist in breaking the law of the land? We must question both the authority and the delegated powers under that authority to discover what it is that leads to such seditious behaviour on the part of the RSS - flagrantly disregarding the law of the land. *The latest incident being the row at the entrance to the venue where the Mirwaiz was due to speak.* It just was unpleasant; no points were raised, none were answered. If the entire meeting had gone on like that, it would have been a disaster.
> 
> Fortunately, actual, bona-fide participants, like the ex-Chief, managed the situation well after the thugs had been dragged away. When faced with facts and logic, the Mirwaiz drooped and faded.



The RSS is basically demonized because it does not have the same vicious hatred for the Indic civilization that is displayed by the Congress and the Left.

But they are pretty much like boy-scouts. One has to be seriously deluded to call them terrorists.

As regards the Mirwaiz incident - let's not have double standards. When Taslima Nasrin was violently attacked by secularist hoodlums in Hyderabad, the Congress government cowered and cancelled her visa, in deference to the violent secularists.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

*Kashmiri separatists set school bus on fire, driver rescues student*

Srinagar's violent protests sank to a new low with protesters setting ablaze a school bus with a child inside the vehicle on Saturday. The incident took place as the protestors wanted to punish the bus driver for defying a shutdown called by the Syed Ali Shah Geelani faction of Hurriyat Conference.

Eyewitnesses said a group of people stopped the bus belonging to a private school at Nowhatta in the Old City area. They smashed the windscreen before setting the bus on fire. They even ignored the driver's plea to spare the lone child on board.

The agitators ran away after setting the bus on fire. The driver braved the fire and rescued the child from the blazing bus.

There was no police presence around the area when the Hurriyat supporters vandalised the bus. Police have registered a case and efforts were on to nab the perpetrators. There has been a fear that the incident could snowball into a bigger crisis.

Briefing about the incident Srinagar SP Shaukat Ahmed said, "Around quarter to eight in the morning near Ranga stop, four boys, two bearded and two clean shaven, stopped the bus. They sprinkled petrol on it, set it ablaze and fled away."

Schools had been closed in much of Kashmir Valley for almost three months last summer after a wave of violence.

Hurriyat leaders condemn incident
Condemning the incident All Party Hurriyat Conference chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq said, "We strongly condemn this. These are miscreants trying to give our movement a bad name. They are not at all related to the Kashmiri struggle. We have always said that our struggle is peaceful. What we are trying to achieve is based on justice and truth."

Veteran Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani said, "We have always believed in a peaceful movement and there is no question of using violent means in this struggle. We want to request those in favour of the movement to only follow the instructions given by the leadership."

Kashmiri separatists set school bus on fire, driver rescues student: LATEST HEADLINES : India Today


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## IBRIS

sayed ali shah, your bloody followers are now turning desperate as they were in 1987. Your pot of sins shall overflow soon. Sweep up will be done the way it was done it in 1992. Culprits will show up for the day they will see their final end. " laaton kai bhoot kabhi baaton say nahi maantay."

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## Indiarox

Come on can't hey at-lest spare children.........


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Indiarox said:


> Come on can't hey at-lest spare children.........



*The mob has no brain*

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## AMCA

Children are not allowed to get educated in the valley as this will change the Minds of Younger generation whom the Separatists are actively Brainwashing... Well I think The School Buses need to be escorted

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## Hindutvadi

Indiarox said:


> Come on can\'t hey at-lest spare children.........


Come on if they spare children..on whom would they show their dadagiri?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

I personally feel its just a tactic to smear Geelanis reputation --as he holds much sway and influence over the people of occupied Kashmir

but the incident itself is deplorable i think.....Kashmiri struggle is undermined by such incidents; Inshallah wiser 'councils' will prevail.


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## Jade

Utterly despicable and desperate act.

The problem with the Separatists is that those who don't agree with their ideology have no rights to reside in Kashmir. First they drove away Pundits...now they are trying the same methods on others pro India Kashmiries


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## Abu Zolfiqar

no, the pundits either embraced Islam willingly and decided to remain at their home or they fled next door to hindustan for purely economic reasons


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## SpArK

Sad incident. May the culprits get nabbed and punished according to the law of the land soon.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> for purely economic reasons



Selective sympathy 

BTW, It is precisely for this very attitude of you and your so-called Kashmiri seperatists that you guys have literally no support of the other Kashmiris like Pandits, Ladakhis etc.

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## AMCA

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> no, the pundits either embraced Islam willingly and decided to remain at their home or they fled next door to hindustan for purely economic reasons



What is there need in Embracing Islam knowing to the fact that they have there heritage in the valley and are a Minority in that part of India.?..

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## GUNS-N- ROSES

its an pathetic act. what have the children done wrong to these people. may lord never forgive them.


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## Nalwa

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> no, the pundits either embraced Islam willingly and decided to remain at their home or they fled next door to hindustan for purely economic reasons



Really? How all goody goody, huh? The Kashmir insurgency has more shades of grey for the Pandits than you could ever imagine. Most were excommunicated, their homes vandalized, and people were threatened. Even the local mosques would broadcast sermons asking people to throw the Kafirs out. What does one do when one has a family to look after and is a minority in a Muslim area?

Would economics be the only reason why over 80&#37; of the Pandits would leave in just over two decades? Think about it..!

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## Jade

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> no, the pundits either embraced Islam willingly and decided to remain at their home or they fled next door to hindustan for purely economic reasons



Hilarious.how come only Pundits have fled out of the valley to other part of the country for pure economic reasons. Anyway, why should they embrace Islam to be in Valley? 

Do you know that since the unrest, 50000 Muslims of the valley migrated to other parts of the country?

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## S_O_C_O_M

*Geelani: We are Pakistanis; Pakistan is ours ​*
Articles 
Written by Asad Sufi 
Monday, 29 November 2010 17:08 

Rarely does a single sentence encapsulate the message of a Movement. I saw a video clip of a speech made by Syed Ali Shah Geelani in Srinagar, where he said amid thunderous applause and palpable excitement, Ham Pakistani Hain; Pakistan Hamara hai. (We are Pakistani; Pakistan is ours) That is the truth but the words are so heavy with implications and potential impact that these had to be uttered by a person matching in eminence with the words.

Pakistan was a Movement before it became a country. The Movement had three objectives. The first and most important was to set up a sovereign Muslim State in areas of British India where the Muslims were in majority. The name Pakistan is an acronym made of the first letters of the states of British India where the Muslims were in majority i.e. Punjab, Afghania (NWFP now called K-P), Kashmir, (Iran which secured its sovereignty before Pakistan did), Sindh, and Baluchistan (last three letters). The princely state of Jammu and Kashmir was always and still is the nuclear element of the Pakistan nation as visualised during the Pakistan Movement. Without Kashmir, Pakistan is incomplete; that has been said often enough. But it has not been said often enough that Kashmiri aspiration for freedom is unfulfilled without being inside Pakistan as Pakistanis shouldering responsibility for the fulfilment of the objectives the Pakistan Movement.

What are the other two objectives of the Pakistan Movement? These are: 1) to develop a model polity for a Muslim nation state that should be a beacon of light for Muslim nations who secure sovereignty and freedom  they number 56 today; 2) to be powerful enough to be able to protect the Muslims who live in a society and/or country hostile to Muslims. Because of the complexity in its foreign relations dictated by eternal hostility of India and the importance of the strategic location of Pakistan, this country has had to seek protection in alliances. Clearly, survival was its first priority. Military defeat in East Pakistan turned out to be blessing in disguise. Pakistan could not have defended a territory separated by a thousand miles of hostile Indian territory when the political leaders of Bengali Muslims decided they would be better off as a vassal state of India. The truth is that unshackled from responsibility to satisfy uneasy East Pakistan, the country has not looked back. Pakistan has made progress in achieving all the objectives of the Pakistan Movement.

The path to success and accomplishment is never even or straight. Those who give up early can never succeed. And Pakistan deserves credit for not giving up early despite inept and often corrupt leadership. Among the stalwarts who enthused the people of Pakistan was Zulfikar Ali Bhutto who gets credit for pulling Pakistan together after the defeat in East Pakistan and bringing the country to centre stage as a vehicle of Muslim unity with the help of well established leaders of the time  Late King Faisal of Saudi Arabia and Colonel Kadhafi of Libya. He is the one who started the nuclear programme in 1974 when India carried out its first nuclear test and stood up against almost universal opposition. His successors deserve credit for sustaining progress despite US sanctions. That Pakistan is the first Muslim country to become a nuclear weapon state is no mean achievement. The Kashmiris are just as proud as the people of Pakistan. The Kashmiris demonstrated that Pakistan is theirs as well.

Much reviled military dictator Zia ul Haq was instrumental in the defeat of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan that eventually led to its disintegration and six Muslim countries  five Central Asia Republics and Azerbaijan  securing sovereign freedom . The US victory in the Cold War would have been impossible without Pakistan and the USA working together. While all the leaders of Pakistan including the nincompoops who rule it today have been aware of the importance of congruence of interests between the USA and Pakistan in South and Central Asia, the US establishment is divided on this issue. India is on the side of those in the US who underline the danger from Islamists rather than the value of having Muslims on their side.

As for evolving a model polity for a Muslim nation state, Pakistan has covered a lot of distance during the lawyers movement that secured the restoration of the judges dismissed by Musharraf who Zardari also did not want to restore. It is now recognised by the intelligentsia in Pakistan that good governance is not the product of democracy; it may even be undermined by the political class that democracy brings to power in many countries like India and Pakistan. Good governance depends more on the rule of law. Pakistani political class is corrupt and is therefore focussed on avoiding being held to account for its crimes. They are afraid that if the judicial system operated effectively and justly they would be in jail rather than in the halls of power. Since 1973, all governments  civil as well as military  have been successful in making the institutions of the state ineffective. They abolished the neutrality and security of tenure of the civil services to make the civil servants no different from private servants of politicians. They undermined the independence of the judiciary  the civilian rulers by legislation to give them control over judicial appointment, and the military by forcing the high judiciary to justify the rule of the Army Chief invoking the dubious doctrine of necessity.

The military itself escaped atrophy - one because its chief was also the chief executive of the country and two because the service chiefs of the armed forces never tolerated interference in promotions and appointments. That the military is resented so much and so unanimously by the political class is therefore quite understandable. But the political class has not given up; another Nawaz Sharif may yet appoint another Musharraf and the whole country suffers. But the fact remains that it is the interest of the military that the country is governed well and it is willing and able to take measures when other institutions collapse or come under foreign influence or control.

I believe that Pakistans rich and varied experience in seeking to develop a model polity equips it to articulate one. This is not difficult. A polity does not define a system of government; it defines the principle of national solidarity of a state. All the fifty six Muslim nation states have different systems of government. It is impossible to find even two states which have exactly the same system of governance. But all fifty six of them have the same polity  Islam. It is not the result of anything Pakistan has done. But there is reason for quiet satisfaction in Pakistan that it is so.

Ironically, the growing solidarity between Muslim nation states has led to encouragement of non-state actors to espouse fringe ideas that makes it easy to revile Islam and Muslims. There is apparently great anxiety in the world today over threat from the Islamists, from nuclear weapons in the hands of Muslims, and the liberation movements of long standing like that in Palestine and Kashmir? USA has grouped all these together in politically correct terms of terrorism and nuclear proliferation. How can any one be for terrorism or proliferation? The Muslims need to respond. They must assert how can any one be for injustice, for betrayal of solemn promises and violation of international law. The people of Jammu and Kashmir and Palestine are the victims of injustice and betrayal in clear violation of international law. As long as injustice and betrayal are sustained, violence will be justified and just as sustained.

What Syed Ali Shah Geelani has done is to claim ownership of the Pakistan Movement for which the Pakistanis are just as grateful as the people of Jammu and Kashmir. But there is a bigger challenge facing him and his Pakistan. The movement in Kashmir is reviled in India and the West as Islamist and terrorist. They have to be able to show and demonstrate that it is a movement against Injustice, Betrayal, and Violation of International law. Resistance is a lawful response to any one let alone all three. Resistance in Kashmir is not only legitimate; it is the duty of every Pakistani  whether living in Kashmir or Pakistan.

Geelani: We are Pakistanis; Pakistan is ours

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## WAR-rior

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *Geelani: We are Pakistanis; Pakistan is ours ​*
> Articles
> Written by Asad Sufi
> Monday, 29 November 2010 17:08
> 
> Rarely does a single sentence encapsulate the message of a Movement. I saw a video clip of a speech made by Syed Ali Shah Geelani in Srinagar, where he said amid thunderous applause and palpable excitement, Ham Pakistani Hain; Pakistan Hamara hai. (We are Pakistani; Pakistan is ours) That is the truth but the words are so heavy with implications and potential impact that these had to be uttered by a person matching in eminence with the words.
> 
> Pakistan was a Movement before it became a country. The Movement had three objectives. The first and most important was to set up a sovereign Muslim State in areas of British India where the Muslims were in majority. The name Pakistan is an acronym made of the first letters of the states of British India where the Muslims were in majority i.e. Punjab, Afghania (NWFP now called K-P), Kashmir, (Iran which secured its sovereignty before Pakistan did), Sindh, and Baluchistan (last three letters). The princely state of Jammu and Kashmir was always and still is the nuclear element of the Pakistan nation as visualised during the Pakistan Movement. Without Kashmir, Pakistan is incomplete; that has been said often enough. But it has not been said often enough that Kashmiri aspiration for freedom is unfulfilled without being inside Pakistan as Pakistanis shouldering responsibility for the fulfilment of the objectives the Pakistan Movement.
> 
> What are the other two objectives of the Pakistan Movement? These are: 1) to develop a model polity for a Muslim nation state that should be a beacon of light for Muslim nations who secure sovereignty and freedom  they number 56 today; 2) to be powerful enough to be able to protect the Muslims who live in a society and/or country hostile to Muslims. Because of the complexity in its foreign relations dictated by eternal hostility of India and the importance of the strategic location of Pakistan, this country has had to seek protection in alliances. Clearly, survival was its first priority. Military defeat in East Pakistan turned out to be blessing in disguise. Pakistan could not have defended a territory separated by a thousand miles of hostile Indian territory when the political leaders of Bengali Muslims decided they would be better off as a vassal state of India. The truth is that unshackled from responsibility to satisfy uneasy East Pakistan, the country has not looked back. Pakistan has made progress in achieving all the objectives of the Pakistan Movement.
> 
> The path to success and accomplishment is never even or straight. Those who give up early can never succeed. And Pakistan deserves credit for not giving up early despite inept and often corrupt leadership. Among the stalwarts who enthused the people of Pakistan was Zulfikar Ali Bhutto who gets credit for pulling Pakistan together after the defeat in East Pakistan and bringing the country to centre stage as a vehicle of Muslim unity with the help of well established leaders of the time  Late King Faisal of Saudi Arabia and Colonel Kadhafi of Libya. He is the one who started the nuclear programme in 1974 when India carried out its first nuclear test and stood up against almost universal opposition. His successors deserve credit for sustaining progress despite US sanctions. That Pakistan is the first Muslim country to become a nuclear weapon state is no mean achievement. The Kashmiris are just as proud as the people of Pakistan. The Kashmiris demonstrated that Pakistan is theirs as well.
> 
> Much reviled military dictator Zia ul Haq was instrumental in the defeat of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan that eventually led to its disintegration and six Muslim countries  five Central Asia Republics and Azerbaijan  securing sovereign freedom . The US victory in the Cold War would have been impossible without Pakistan and the USA working together. While all the leaders of Pakistan including the nincompoops who rule it today have been aware of the importance of congruence of interests between the USA and Pakistan in South and Central Asia, the US establishment is divided on this issue. India is on the side of those in the US who underline the danger from Islamists rather than the value of having Muslims on their side.
> 
> As for evolving a model polity for a Muslim nation state, Pakistan has covered a lot of distance during the lawyers movement that secured the restoration of the judges dismissed by Musharraf who Zardari also did not want to restore. It is now recognised by the intelligentsia in Pakistan that good governance is not the product of democracy; it may even be undermined by the political class that democracy brings to power in many countries like India and Pakistan. Good governance depends more on the rule of law. Pakistani political class is corrupt and is therefore focussed on avoiding being held to account for its crimes. They are afraid that if the judicial system operated effectively and justly they would be in jail rather than in the halls of power. Since 1973, all governments  civil as well as military  have been successful in making the institutions of the state ineffective. They abolished the neutrality and security of tenure of the civil services to make the civil servants no different from private servants of politicians. They undermined the independence of the judiciary  the civilian rulers by legislation to give them control over judicial appointment, and the military by forcing the high judiciary to justify the rule of the Army Chief invoking the dubious doctrine of necessity.
> 
> The military itself escaped atrophy - one because its chief was also the chief executive of the country and two because the service chiefs of the armed forces never tolerated interference in promotions and appointments. That the military is resented so much and so unanimously by the political class is therefore quite understandable. But the political class has not given up; another Nawaz Sharif may yet appoint another Musharraf and the whole country suffers. But the fact remains that it is the interest of the military that the country is governed well and it is willing and able to take measures when other institutions collapse or come under foreign influence or control.
> 
> I believe that Pakistans rich and varied experience in seeking to develop a model polity equips it to articulate one. This is not difficult. A polity does not define a system of government; it defines the principle of national solidarity of a state. All the fifty six Muslim nation states have different systems of government. It is impossible to find even two states which have exactly the same system of governance. But all fifty six of them have the same polity  Islam. It is not the result of anything Pakistan has done. But there is reason for quiet satisfaction in Pakistan that it is so.
> 
> Ironically, the growing solidarity between Muslim nation states has led to encouragement of non-state actors to espouse fringe ideas that makes it easy to revile Islam and Muslims. There is apparently great anxiety in the world today over threat from the Islamists, from nuclear weapons in the hands of Muslims, and the liberation movements of long standing like that in Palestine and Kashmir? USA has grouped all these together in politically correct terms of terrorism and nuclear proliferation. How can any one be for terrorism or proliferation? The Muslims need to respond. They must assert how can any one be for injustice, for betrayal of solemn promises and violation of international law. The people of Jammu and Kashmir and Palestine are the victims of injustice and betrayal in clear violation of international law. As long as injustice and betrayal are sustained, violence will be justified and just as sustained.
> 
> What Syed Ali Shah Geelani has done is to claim ownership of the Pakistan Movement for which the Pakistanis are just as grateful as the people of Jammu and Kashmir. But there is a bigger challenge facing him and his Pakistan. The movement in Kashmir is reviled in India and the West as Islamist and terrorist. They have to be able to show and demonstrate that it is a movement against Injustice, Betrayal, and Violation of International law. Resistance is a lawful response to any one let alone all three. Resistance in Kashmir is not only legitimate; it is the duty of every Pakistani  whether living in Kashmir or Pakistan.
> 
> Geelani: We are Pakistanis; Pakistan is ours



alright ! u can take him.....we will not leave any stone unturned in the ceremonies of his BIDAAI ! also u can take the baraati, ie. the 3-4 % kashmiri supporters of his !

we wud be obliged.....

so when is he coming to his Pakistan ?

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## CaptainJackSparrow

Toh jao na! Kisne roka hai?


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## CaptainJackSparrow

*Kashmir will never become a part of Pak: Farooq Abdullah​*
In the first public function in the city after the unprecedented five month long separatist groundswell, leading to death of 112 youth, union minister for non-renewable resources Dr Farooq Abdullah on Sunday said that the state would never become a part of Pakistan even as his son, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah urged separatists to come forward for talks with New Delhi, now that they had talked to parliamentarians.

The function was held on the bank of Dal lake at the mausoleum of the National Conference founder Sheikh Abdullah on his 105th birth anniversary. With thousands of people attending, the function also served as a symbolic return of the ruling National Conference to the centrestage in Kashmir, after being virtually relegated to the margins through the summer agitation.

There will be no Pakistan here. Kashmir will never become a part of Pakistan, Abdullah thundered as the people listened in rapt attention. Abdullah said that only solution to Kashmir was his partys long standing proposal for autonomy to the state within constitution of India.  Only autonomy to Kashmir will help restore peace, he said. 

Omar, on the other hand, struck a more moderate tone calling upon separatists to shun hartal politics and facilitate Kashmir solution through a dialogue with Centre.  Dialogue remains the only way forward, Omar said.  If they (separatists) can talk to parliamentarians, there should be no harm in talking to centre.

However, more than what the leaders said, it was the huge gathering of the NC supporters that was significant. A month back, it looked almost impossible for the party to muster such a large crowd in the city.

People arrived in groups of 100-200, marching between a thick wall of security on both sides of the road. They carried the blood-red banners, NCs symbolic colour, splashed with smiling photographs of Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, Farooq Abdullah and Sheikh Abdullah were ushered into the mausoleum park through a small opening between rolls of concertina wire with all the necessary security precaution.

The groups represented their respective blocks, were led by a block president and shouted the template Muslim slogan, God is great. The groups came from all parts of the Valley, being transported safely through Boulevard around Dal lake to escape the hazardous travel through the edgy downtown city.

For the block president Haji Abdul Ahad Dar of Budgam, the huge gathering was an answer to the people who didnt let them celebrate Sher-i-Kashmirs death anniversary on September 6 this year.  There was stone throwing all across the Valley. So we couldnt celebrate the anniversary in summer. Now here is an answer, Dar said as he sat with his flock on the roadside waiting for Omar to arrive and show himself up.

It was this enthusiasm among the people that impelled 22 year old Tajamul Hussain, a passerby to exclaim to his friends. My God, people are pouring in with gusto and dispatch. There is no space left to fill in the park, Hussain said loudly for all around to hear. However, what could be easily discerned among the crowd hearing Omar and Farooq was the absence of the youth in the 15-25 age bracket, who mostly made up the crowds who took to the streets through summer pelting stones and getting killed.

Uncomfortable at the surprising turn of events, Abdur Rehman Mir from the nearby Dargah locality said that the people at the function come from villages.  There is none from Srinagar, he said. However, NC supporters from various parts of the city were duly present among the audience. Abdul Gafar from Khaniyar in downtown city said the NC had a strong support base in Srinagar. It is only in the city that NC won all its seats in the last Assembly election. The party belongs to all, villages as well as cities, Gafar said.

Kashmir will never become a part of Pak: Farooq Abdullah

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## twoplustwoisfour

*Checks who has posted the thread*

*Checks the source*

Ignored.


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## KS

Lolzzz....This man is a living,breathing example for 'Shooting his own feet'.

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## Paan Singh

captain jack in his best form but i think same type of thread already been posted


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## ajtr

Just the matter of time......................................


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## CaptainJackSparrow

ajtr said:


> Just the matter of time......................................



....before this so-called 'struggle' where seperatists burn school kids' buses ends


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## FreekiN

Gilani, Gilani everywhere.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

FreekiN said:


> Gilani, Gilani everywhere.



What happened to your English?


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## Mirza Jatt

By saying 'WE' , am sure he means he himself and his hired followers , definitely not all kashmiris.


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## FreekiN

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> What happened to your English?



http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/83254-geelani-we-pakistanis-pakistan-ours.html


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## CaptainJackSparrow

FreekiN said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/83254-geelani-we-pakistanis-pakistan-ours.html



'Everywhere' includes this thread too. What happened to your English?


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## Paan Singh

who we???
hurriyat


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## ajtr

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> ....before this so-called 'struggle' where seperatists burn school kids' buses ends


True Struggle has to end some day with the achievement of goal.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

ajtr said:


> True Struggle has to end some day with the achievement of true goal.



and this 'struggle' lacks trueness so it will fail without the achievement of the so-called goal.

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## PakiiZeeshan

^^^

LOL @ all the frustrated indians

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## KS

ajtr said:


> True Struggle has to end some day with the achievement of goal.



This struggle will end within 1 year after the Indian Gov repeals the stupid Article 370.

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## ajtr

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> and this 'struggle' lacks trueness so it will fail without the achievement of the so-called goal.


No struggle is true or false....edited out 'true'....coming to point struggle will go on till goal is achieved.


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## Mirza Jatt

struggle will continue as long as the 'so called strugglers' remain attached and funded externally in the long run.


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## ajtr

Karthic Sri said:


> This struggle will end within 1 year after the Indian Gov repeals the stupid Article 370.


Instead of repealing article 370 GOI must make this article universal to all states.Lets every state have level playing field no preferential treatment to any state.


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## Paan Singh

PakiiZeeshan said:


> ^^^
> 
> LOL @ all the frustrated indians


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## Yeti

Please leave India then and settle in Pakistan


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## ajtr

Indian Jatt said:


> struggle will continue as long as the 'so called strugglers' remain attached and funded in the long run.


GOI is the largest fund provider of this struggle.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

ajtr said:


> No struggle is true or false....edited out 'true'....coming to point struggle will go on till goal is achieved.



*Struggle is ours too.* Our struggle: To maintain the territorial inegrity of the motherland.

*Goals are ours too.* Our goal: To defeat all those who wish ill upon the motherland.

*Sacrifices have been ours too.* Our sacrifice: Losing thousands of sons who have willingly laid down their lives for the motherland (something which you, ajtr, flaunting Indian flag, seem to ungrateful of).

Achievement will be whose? Only time will tell.

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## Mirza Jatt

ajtr said:


> GOI is the largest fund provider of this struggle.



prove it by a logical explaination or a valid source.


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## amigo

we know that, i haven't heard this first time.


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## KS

ajtr said:


> Instead of repealing article 370 GOI must make this article universal to all states.Lets every state have level playing field no *preferential treatment to any state.*



Exactly --- why should J&K be provided special treatment.

Let it get the same treatment a Maharashtra or a Tamil Nadu or a Bihar gets and the first step is repealing Article 370.


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## ajtr

Indian Jatt said:


> prove it by a logical explaination or a valid source.


Haath kangan ko arasi kya......
Check out the two biggest names in Yasin malik and Gilani..

1.Follow up on the security provided to these and others and their families in kashmir...
2. who provides the health care in to these on in the costliest Indian hospitals.
3.Who provides the funds for chartered planes to flew them to usa for heart treatment.
.
.
.
many more


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## amigo

ajtr said:


> Haath kangan ko arasi kya......
> Check out the two biggest names in Yasin malik and Gilani..
> 
> 1.Follow up on the security provided to these and others and their families in kashmir...
> 2. who provides the health care in to these on in the costliest Indian hospitals.
> 3.Who provides the funds for chartered planes to flew them to usa for heart treatment.
> .
> .
> .
> many more



that's why india is a good example of democracy, democratic countries do that even to ******


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## CaptainJackSparrow

ajtr said:


> Haath kangan ko arasi kya......
> Check out the two biggest names in Yasin malik and Gilani..
> 
> 1.Follow up on the security provided to these and others and their families in kashmir...
> 2. who provides the health care in to these on in the costliest Indian hospitals.
> 3.Who provides the funds for chartered planes to flew them to usa for heart treatment.
> .
> .
> .
> many more



*lol you seriously have some issues understanding how life works.*

*Anyways, the government is providing security to them because their lives are in perpetual threat from certain elements who do not like what these people say. 

The government is providing them security just like it should provide security to any Indian citizen whose life is under threat.

It doesn't mean the government agrees with what they say. NO! NO WAY!

Ever heard of Evelyn Beatrice Hall? The same guy who gave the following memorable quote-*

*I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.*

*The GoI disapproves of what these Gilani's and Mirwaiz's say, but the GoI protects their right to say it. That's why the security.*


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## Icarus

You guys are so naive, the GoI wants this struggle to continue on a controllable scale. If the Indian people have nothing to fear from Kashmiri separatists and Pakistan then the political parties will lose their most important rallying cry. Holding that plebiscite was not that complex an issue that it has been made today, had it been so hard to implement would Gandhi and Nehru have committed to it in the first place ? The issue has been politicized and that's the only reason it doesn't die.
Hyderabad issue died
Junagadh issue died
Assam issue died
The "East Pakistan" issue is pretty much gone and done with
Similarly, the Siachen issue died
All of the above were infringement of Pakistani territories but nobody talks about them......because they never became political tools unlike Kashmir.


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## ajtr

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> *Struggle is ours too.* Our struggle: To maintain the territorial inegrity of the motherland.
> 
> *Goals are ours too.* Our goal: To defeat all those who wish ill upon the motherland.
> 
> *Sacrifices have been ours too.* Our sacrifice: Losing thousands of sons who have willingly laid down their lives for the motherland (something which you, ajtr, flaunting Indian flag, seem to ungrateful of).
> 
> Achievement will be whose? Only time will tell.


*Our struggle :*Got compromised in 1947.And getting compromised everyday.
*Goals are ours too.* Our goal : Defeat the Political elites first.otherwise gonna see lot more kashmirs.
*Sacrifices have been ours too.* Our sacrifice : Dont shame the sacrifices of real patriots.

Achievement will be whose? Only time will tell.:still asleep??time has already gone past you.


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## Mirza Jatt

ajtr said:


> Haath kangan ko arasi kya......
> Check out the two biggest names in Yasin malik and Gilani..
> 
> 1.Follow up on the security provided to these and others and their families in kashmir...
> 2. who provides the health care in to these on in the costliest Indian hospitals.
> 3.Who provides the funds for chartered planes to flew them to usa for heart treatment.
> .
> .
> .
> many more



ajmal Kasab's security spendings by GoI. go through it.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...31-crore-and-counting/articleshow/5269730.cms


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## amigo

Kakgeta said:


> You guys are so naive, the GoI wants this struggle to continue on a controllable scale. If the Indian people have nothing to fear from Kashmiri separatists and Pakistan then the political parties will lose their most important rallying cry. Holding that plebiscite was not that complex an issue that it has been made today, had it been so hard to implement would Gandhi and Nehru have committed to it in the first place ? The issue has been politicized and that's the only reason it doesn't die.
> Hyderabad issue died
> Junagadh issue died
> Assam issue died
> The "East Pakistan" issue is pretty much gone and done with
> Similarly, the Siachen issue died
> All of the above were infringement of Pakistani territories but nobody talks about them......because they never became political tools unlike Kashmir.



carry on, no indian goona buy that.........


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## RVS_108

what is the benefit of autonomous status when the current state's govt itself is a democratically elected one ???

If u notice u know every Indian State is itself is a kind of autonomous state coz every state has their own democratically elected chief minister and governor etc coz India is not only a "democratic Nation" but also u know its govt type is "Federal republic" too so its clear tht India a nation is a Union of States. 

i mean the state has all the benefits of Autonomous'ness in being an Indian State.

---------- Post added at 09:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 PM ----------

what is the benefit of autonomous status when the current state's govt itself is a democratically elected one ???

If u notice u know every Indian State is itself is a kind of autonomous state coz every state has their own democratically elected chief minister and governor etc coz India is not only a "democratic Nation" but also u know its govt type is "Federal republic" too so its clear tht India a nation is a Union of States. 

i mean the state has all the benefits of Autonomous'ness in being an Indian State.


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## KS

Kakgeta said:


> You guys are so naive, the GoI wants this struggle to continue on a controllable scale. *If the Indian people have nothing to fear from Kashmiri separatists and Pakistan then the political parties will lose their most important rallying cry. *Holding that plebiscite was not that complex an issue that it has been made today, had it been so hard to implement would Gandhi and Nehru have committed to it in the first place ? The issue has been politicized and that's the only reason it doesn't die.
> Hyderabad issue died
> Junagadh issue died
> Assam issue died
> The "East Pakistan" issue is pretty much gone and done with
> Similarly, the Siachen issue died
> All of the above were infringement of Pakistani territories but nobody talks about them......because they never became political tools unlike Kashmir.



Actually it is only you who is being naive.

The most important rallying cry of todays India's politicians is _*'Bijli,Pani and Sadak'*_. Development and economic upliftment are the selling points and not Kashmir.

Every party in India holds the exact same sentiment on Kashmir and so there is nothing much to promise.

Infact I dont remember the last election in which the word Kashmir was even mentioned.


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## ajtr

Kakgeta said:


> You guys are so naive, the GoI wants this struggle to continue on a controllable scale. If the Indian people have nothing to fear from Kashmiri separatists and Pakistan then the political parties will lose their most important rallying cry. Holding that plebiscite was not that complex an issue that it has been made today, had it been so hard to implement would Gandhi and Nehru have committed to it in the first place ? The issue has been politicized and that's the only reason it doesn't die.
> Hyderabad issue died
> Junagadh issue died
> Assam issue died
> The "East Pakistan" issue is pretty much gone and done with
> Similarly, the Siachen issue died
> All of the above were infringement of Pakistani territories but nobody talks about them......because they never became political tools unlike Kashmir.


In a sense Separatists are RAW agent keeping the flame of Azadi alive


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## PakiiZeeshan

Sometimes this forum seems like an indian defence forum, rather than Pakistan defence forum


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Kakgeta said:


> You guys are so naive, the GoI wants this struggle to continue on a controllable scale. If the Indian people have nothing to fear from Kashmiri separatists and Pakistan then the political parties will lose their most important rallying cry.



Oh C'mon! I mean C'mon!

If you think that Pakistan and so-called Kashmir issue hold any value in people's minds, you are sadly and badly mistaken.

Both have long ceased to be issues of any worth whatsoever. 

The Indian voter is focussing on development, economy etc.

Seriously buddy, the avaerage Indian voter has a lot many things to vote for than Pakistan and Kashmir.

Pakistan and Kashmir are not so important , in fact not important at all, for the Indian voter.



Kakgeta said:


> Holding that plebiscite was not that complex an issue that it has been made today, had it been so hard to implement would Gandhi and Nehru have committed to it in the first place ?



Everything said and done, the plebiscite is not possible anymore and neither is it a binding commitment.



Kakgeta said:


> The issue has been politicized and that's the only reason it doesn't die.
> Hyderabad issue died
> Junagadh issue died
> Assam issue died
> The "East Pakistan" issue is pretty much gone and done with
> Similarly, the Siachen issue died
> All of the above were infringement of Pakistani territories but nobody talks about them......because they never became political tools unlike Kashmir.



And even Kashmir has lost steam outside Kashmir, now.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

PakiiZeeshan said:


> Sometimes this forum seems like an indian defence forum, rather than Pakistan defence forum



It's not a Pakistani forum. It's an international forum with Pakistan as its focus.

For further clarification, contact the admins.


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## AMCA

PakiiZeeshan said:


> Sometimes this forum seems like an indian defence forum, rather than Pakistan defence forum



Yup, Once in a Blue moon does any Sensible posts come in, Not Our fault dear, for that matter you dont need to Adjudge this Indian Forum, You will get plenty other un authenticated Threads to prove you are still in Pakistan defense forum...


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## PakiiZeeshan

Over 1 Billion frickin indians in this world, << how the hell are we supposed to cope with this crap?

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## AMCA

PakiiZeeshan said:


> Over 1 Billion frickin indians in this world, << how the hell are we supposed to cope with this crap?



Answer is Simple, Dont Get Fricked by Indians

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## CaptainJackSparrow

PakiiZeeshan said:


> Over 1 Billion frickin indians in this world, << how the hell are we supposed to cope with this crap?



a. 1.2 billion. For further clarity, wait for the next census which is already under process.

b. If you can't beat us, join us!

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## Icarus

I'm going to take all three responses and roll them into one.
You may disagree with me, but I speak the God honest truth, you can always act like champs of this issue but nobody quite understands it as I do(I don't mean to gloat). As an analyst and as someone who has actually seen action on the LoC, I know that this issue isn't that tough to resolve at all. The people are willing, the GoP is willing the only nod that they are looking for is from the GoI. It's a simple referendum supervised by the UN which will be much simpler(in terms of area to foresee) than the elections that our countries hold every 5 years but that simple election will save hundreds of thousands of lives that will be lost if this issue continues to be ignored.
Infact, you might as well not hold the referendum, a quick visit will tell you that most of the people will only agree to being declared either independent or a special administrative region somewhat like Azad Kashmir but with Independent armed forces and currency(pegged to Pakistani/Indian rupee).


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Kakgeta said:


> I'm going to take all three responses and roll them into one.
> You may disagree with me, but I speak the God honest truth, you can always act like champs of this issue but nobody quite understands it as I do(I don't mean to gloat). As an analyst and as someone who has actually seen action on the LoC, I know that this issue isn't that tough to resolve at all. The people are willing, the GoP is willing the only nod that they are looking for is from the GoI. It's a simple referendum supervised by the UN which will be much simpler(in terms of area to foresee) than the elections that our countries hold every 5 years but that simple election will save hundreds of thousands of lives that will be lost if this issue continues to be ignored.
> Infact, you might as well not hold the referendum, a quick visit will tell you that most of the people will only agree to being declared either independent or a special administrative region somewhat like Azad Kashmir but with Independent armed forces and currency(pegged to Pakistani/Indian rupee).



*lol Itna simple bhi nahin hai yaar. 

Anyways, 

you do not speak 'The Truth', you speak what YOU think is 'The Truth'.

See, there are three types of truths:

1. Your truth.

2. My truth.

3. The true truth.

Your above post is the first type of truth. *


----------



## Icarus

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> And even Kashmir has lost steam outside Kashmir, now.



All else I might agree with but you are truly mistaken if you believe what you just wrote. 
These things have a funny way of coming back to haunt you when you think they are gone. An ideology once concocted never dies out completely, it just thins out and comes back another day.
Take for example Nazism(Facism), Talibanization, Nuclear politics.
They should all have "Lost Steam" but they are all staging a come back.


----------



## amigo

Kakgeta said:


> I'm going to take all three responses and roll them into one.
> You may disagree with me, but I speak the God honest truth, you can always act like champs of this issue but nobody quite understands it as I do(I don't mean to gloat). As an analyst and as someone who has actually seen action on the LoC, I know that this issue isn't that tough to resolve at all. The people are willing, the GoP is willing the only nod that they are looking for is from the GoI. It's a simple referendum supervised by the UN which will be much simpler(in terms of area to foresee) than the elections that our countries hold every 5 years but that simple election will save hundreds of thousands of lives that will be lost if this issue continues to be ignored.
> Infact, you might as well not hold the referendum, a quick visit will tell you that most of the people will only agree to being declared either independent or a special administrative region somewhat like Azad Kashmir but with Independent armed forces and currency(pegged to Pakistani/Indian rupee).



i respect ur knowledge in this case but i think as far as plebiscite is concerned no country will do that. inegrity & national pride will come in way.


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## Enigma

Laat marke bhagao gaddar ko. He is the worst politician i have ever seen. For some political gain and benefit he is ready to sell his soul. He is sold he is sold he is utterly sold out.


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## Icarus

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> *lol Itna simple bhi nahin hai yaar.
> 
> Anyways,
> 
> you do not speak 'The Truth', you speak what YOU think is 'The Truth'.
> 
> See, there are three types of truths:
> 
> 1. Your truth.
> 
> 2. My truth.
> 
> 3. The true truth.
> 
> Your above post is the first type of truth. *



Very well put, Dear friend..............
A very wise man once said "A war(in this case an ideological clash) is never between a wrong and a right, it is always between two rights. It just depends on which right can over power the other"
Therefore I cannot simply refute your point of view, hence we carry on with this fruitless issue that will most probable never be solved. People will lay down their life, thinking they will make a difference but to no avail.

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## AstanoshKhan

But Farooq Abdullah didn't say that Kashmir is the (or will become) part of India. Did he?


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## Mirza Jatt

AstanoshKhan said:


> But Farooq Abdullah didn't say that Kashmir is the (or will become) part of India. Did he?



sorry to burst your bubble dear.

Kashmir an integral part of India: Farooq Abdullah

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## Jade

Kakgeta said:


> I'm going to take all three responses and roll them into one.
> You may disagree with me, but I speak the God honest truth, you can always act like champs of this issue but nobody quite understands it as I do(I don't mean to gloat). As an analyst and as someone who has actually seen action on the LoC, I know that this issue isn't that tough to resolve at all. The people are willing, the GoP is willing the only nod that they are looking for is from the GoI. It's a simple referendum supervised by the UN which will be much simpler(in terms of area to foresee) than the elections that our countries hold every 5 years but that simple election will save hundreds of thousands of lives that will be lost if this issue continues to be ignored.
> Infact, you might as well not hold the referendum, a quick visit will tell you that most of the people will only agree to being declared either independent or a special administrative region somewhat like Azad Kashmir but with Independent armed forces and currency(pegged to Pakistani/Indian rupee).




You may disagree with me, but the referendum is not that simple. Times have changed. 1947 was different. Lot of blood has flowed since then. Nationalistic identities are much stronger now. World has moved away from Kashmir. China has become one of the stakeholders. Demographics have changed. Indias National stakes are stronger in Kashmir then they were back then.so, as it is unthinkable for Indian to get hold of P-O-K and GB, it is impossible for Pakistan to get hold of J&Kthe best solution is recognize the status quo and move on


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## prototype

ajtr said:


> True Struggle has to end some day with the achievement of goal.



If India go the way what China and Israel did,the world will not hear any stories about the struggle,thanks to Indian restraint they r allowing this fake struggle


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## AstanoshKhan

Indian Jatt said:


> sorry to burst your bubble dear.
> 
> Kashmir an integral part of India: Farooq Abdullah



Thank you IJ.

If, according to FA, it is the integral part of India, then why he has to whine about it?

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## CaptainJackSparrow

AstanoshKhan said:


> Thank you IJ.
> 
> If it is the integral part of India, then why he has to whine about it?



For you and a few thousand people in the valley.


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## amigo

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> For you and a few thousand people in the valley.



but they still don't want to understand


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## TOPGUN

The topic and story should be like kashmir will never become part of india ... simply or part of no one and a seperate state let the people of kashmir live in peace for GOD's sake .


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## Infinity

PakiiZeeshan said:


> ^^^
> 
> LOL @ all the frustrated indians



Lol we don't have any frustration in leaving him.


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## Mirza Jatt

AstanoshKhan said:


> Thank you IJ.
> 
> If, according to FA, it is the integral part of India, then why he has to whine about it?



damn ! I forgot to ask this.

c'mon buddy..day and night , the separatists ask him this question about his own state, he resides in..he's just answering them. whats whinning about it.


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## prototype

TOPGUN said:


> The topic and story should be like kashmir will never become part of india ... simply or part of no one and a seperate state let the people of kashmir live in peace for GOD's sake .



But sadly truth is as opposite as it can,and it's disheartening to see that some like have to live with that,my condolences


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## Infinity

PakiiZeeshan said:


> ^^^
> 
> I can't believe you wasted your time just for that.. pathetic bhangee



Who Geelani..........................
He has not reached Pakistan you started abusing him


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## WAR-rior

KASHMIR aaya nahin ki bachche ban jaate hain hum sab......

hai re hindustani ....hai re pakistani..... kya hoga humaara !


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## WAR-rior

PakiiZeeshan said:


> ^^^
> 
> LOL @ all the frustrated indians



chalo yaar.....lets try talk some sense !

who do u think are the DEMORATICALLY ruling party in india?

ans - national conference

last election, hurriat conference(sajjad lone) got only 3-4 % votes..

now tell me what is the stance of national conference about kashmir ?

(do search what farookh abdullah said recently about kashmir and its incursuion in pakistan)

hope u understand the difference between reality and your reality!

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## KS

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Selective sympathy
> 
> BTW, It is precisely for this very attitude of you and your so-called Kashmiri seperatists that you guys have literally no support of the other Kashmiris like Pandits, Ladakhis etc.





AMCA said:


> What is there need in Embracing Islam knowing to the fact that they have there heritage in the valley and are a Minority in that part of India.?..





Kutt@_Bimar said:


> Really? How all goody goody, huh? The Kashmir insurgency has more shades of grey for the Pandits than you could ever imagine. Most were excommunicated, their homes vandalized, and people were threatened. Even the local mosques would broadcast sermons asking people to throw the Kafirs out. What does one do when one has a family to look after and is a minority in a Muslim area?
> 
> Would economics be the only reason why over 80% of the Pandits would leave in just over two decades? Think about it..!





jade1982 said:


> Hilarious.how come only Pundits have fled out of the valley to other part of the country for pure economic reasons. Anyway, why should they embrace Islam to be in Valley?
> 
> Do you know that since the unrest, 50000 Muslims of the valley migrated to other parts of the country?



Leave it guys ---- You think he does not know ??

Its a lost case believe me for you can wake up a man who is asleep,not one who pretends to be asleep.

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## darkhand08

Also, *he is allowed to speak against the nation, with the same nation's security forces guarding him.This speaks volumes about the nation and the government of kashmir.*
Also as far as i can remember last time the elections were held in J & K, the people voted for National Conference and not the separatists.So no way is he talking along the lines of the general consensus of Kashmir.


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## TOPGUN

alex mercer said:


> But sadly truth is as opposite as it can,and it's disheartening to see that some like have to live with that,my condolences



The truth of the matter is that kashmir is not part of india and never will be or should be . Second the people of kashmir hate india and hate everything about it... Third they want to be a part of Pakistan or have there own nation now where is the damn opposite there isn't so just shut it let these people in peace stop trying to act like the israeli's the way they act towards the palestinies let people live INDIA


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## CaptainJackSparrow

TOPGUN said:


> The truth of the matter is that kashmir is not part of india and never will be or should be . Second the people of kashmir hate india and hate everything about it... Third they want to be a part of Pakistan or have there own nation now where is the damn opposite there isn't so just shut it let these people in peace stop trying to act like the israeli's the way they act towards the palestinies let people live INDIA



Just relax! You're not getting Kashmir on an internet forum, so why not keep the anger under check?


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## somebozo

Just like the Congressi Moulvis said Pakistan will never survive, Jamatis said Pakistan will never come into being and the rest called it dream of an idiot however it was one determined man who embarrassed everyone and fought a two front battle for giving us our homeland. Anything and everything can be done with sheer will power, motive, public support and a good leader. Kashmirs inshallah will have their day soon..hope is never dead. 

And this time there wont be any refugee for such traitors selling the Kashmiri and identity for few bank notes.


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## amigo

ankit123 said:


> im afraid my dear, this time we really gonna lose kashmir if we kept stopping pakistan's water and terrorising balochistan.



r u insane, india is not stoping anyone's water & not spreading terrorism. BTW what ever happens kashmir is not going anywhere, so relax.


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## ankit123

amigo said:


> r u insane, india is not stoping anyone's water & not spreading terrorism. BTW what ever happens kashmir is not going anywhere, so relax.



yup u r right, even it becomes pakistani part, karshmir is not like floating away to atlantic ocean will it???

where is indian flag btw???


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## amigo

somebozo said:


> Just like the Congressi Moulvis said Pakistan will never survive, Jamatis said Pakistan will never come into being and the rest called it dream of an idiot however it was one determined man who embarrassed everyone and fought a two front battle for giving us our homeland. Anything and everything can be done with sheer will power, motive, public support and a good leader. Kashmirs inshallah will have their day soon..hope is never dead.
> 
> And this time there wont be any refugee for such traitors selling the Kashmiri and identity for few bank notes.



first of all don't compare kashmir with pak. secondly all these lines such as everything is possible, everything can be done are used only to satisfy human mind. so u & i both know very well that somethings are rely not possible, kashmir is one of them


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## Xestan

YouTube - "Pakistan ka matlab kya : La ilaha illa Allah" say a million Kashmiris in India Occupied Kashmir

Farooq Abdullah is a puppet, Ask a Kashmiri what he wants, they just want the right of Self Determination, joining Pakistan is a later issue..

---------- Post added at 12:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 AM ----------

YouTube - Massive Kashmiri croud shouting long live Pakistan in indian occupied Kashmir

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## TOPGUN

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Just relax! You're not getting Kashmir on an internet forum, so why not keep the anger under check?



I have no anger u should keep your self in check before you reck yourself and face reailty and the facts these are crimes against human kind in general i care less what u think or say what i speak of are facts based on everyday life your country is killing these people wana try to tell these peope to keep there anger inside how would you like it if your people were dieing each and everyday from someone for no damn reason they don't want to be part of your country nor want anything to do with it there voice has been heard way to many times now india let these people live in peace for GOD's sake.


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## Xestan

YouTube - Srinagar,Kashmir - Green flag hoisted on Lal Chowk clock tower on Eid Day 11Sept 2010

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## CaptainJackSparrow

TOPGUN said:


> I have no anger u should keep your self in check before you reck yourself and face reailty and the facts i care less what u think or say what i speak of are facts based on everyday life your country is killing these people wana try to tell these peope to keep there anger inside how would you like it if your people were dieing each and everyday from someone for no damn reason they don't want to be part of your country nor want anything to do with it there voice has been heard way to many times now india let these people live in peace for GOD's sake.



You don't have to worry. They are our people, we will take care of them and their grievances.
*
P.S.* It's not that I cannot reply to your post in a more 'detailed' manner per se, actually, I see no point in doing the same thing that has been done over and over again by nearly every single Indian member on nearly every single Kashmir related thread. I'm starting to get bored of hearing the same cliched rhetoric from you guys over and over and over again. So unless you have something new or exciting to discuss, don't waste my time.


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## amigo

UmEr Rajpoot said:


> YouTube - Srinagar,Kashmir - Green flag hoisted on Lal Chowk clock tower on Eid Day 11Sept 2010



we already know that what's new?????????


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## TOPGUN

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> You don't have to worry. They are our people, we will take care of them and their grievances.



You are useless to even go back and forth with and imatture forsure .. hahaha they are not your people nor ever will be and if they were your peope do you kill your own people you must be sick in the damn head there so many videos and pics and voices that clearly say they hate india and they want india out ! now face the facts and don't come back to me with your dumb comments with no facts hater...


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## Xestan

amigo said:


> we already know that what's new?????????



What a shame, you know it and still speaking ill.. Ever met a Kashmiri? Not a fake one.. Just go to Facebook, search for "Frontline Kashmir", see what Kashmkiris think of India...

Who are you fooling guys? You know Kashmir is/was NOT a part of India, India is occupying it illegally..


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## Xestan

from several weeks, SMS service in kashmir is off, the reason is that the youth cannot communicate and throw some stones on Occupying forces..

This is the biggest Democracy of the world.. Shame!


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## CaptainJackSparrow

TOPGUN said:


> You are useless to even go back and forth with and imatture forsure .. hahaha they are not your people nor ever will be and if they were your peope do you kill your own people you must be sick in the damn head there so many videos and pics and voices that clearly say they hate india and they want india out ! now face the facts and don't come back to me with your dumb comments with no facts hater...


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## DesiGuy

Kashmir....give it break guys!


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## amigo

UmEr Rajpoot said:


> What a shame, you know it and still speaking ill.. Ever met a Kashmiri? Not a fake one.. Just go to Facebook, search for "Frontline Kashmir", see what Kashmkiris think of India...
> 
> Who are you fooling guys? You know Kashmir is/was NOT a part of India, India is occupying it illegally..



for ur kind inf. countries don't run like that. if india started fullfilling everyone wishes then there will be no india itself. so keep aside the emotions then think. if u r still not getting imagine ur country like this. it is easy to dictate terms to others.


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## Xestan

^ In my country, there is NO area where my more than 700,000 Troops are battling innocent people who throw stons at them.. C'mon! It's not about emotions.. this is a reality, kashmiris have been struggling for Freedom and they are doing it now..

You cannot stop them.. this new intifada is not supoorted/funded by Pakistan, what made the youth to come on roads and sacrifice their lives..

More than 100 young guys have been martyred by your occupying forces in last 4-5 months..


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## DesiGuy

just because few bunches of people said, they want separate nation, India won't give them their own separate nation, espically when these idiots don't even know how to run a nation. 
and that land will get in wrong hand will probably be used against india. 

if india give them separate land today, than other in India will ask for their own land. and India will NOT divide herself, because of religious conflict once again.


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## KS

UmEr Rajpoot said:


> ^ In my country, there is NO area where my more than 700,000 Troops are battling innocent people who throw stons at them.. C'mon! It's not about emotions.. this is a reality, kashmiris have been struggling for Freedom and they are doing it now..
> 
> You cannot stop them.. *this new intifada is not supoorted/funded by Pakistan, what made the youth to come on roads and sacrifice their lives..*
> 
> More than 100 young guys have been martyred by your occupying forces in last 4-5 months..



Dude FYI the supposed intifada (whateva crap that means) has dissipated already.

How many days can they shout Azadi without earning to eat their daily bread. ??

We know that and thats why we let them to shout --- Shout how much loud they can --- Eventually they have to get back to their jobs and move on.

 to the ways of the cruel Bhartis.

*ps.:* Read my signature to undestand the ground reality.

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## CaptainJackSparrow

Karthic Sri said:


> Dude FYI the supposed intifada (whateva crap that means) has dissipated already.
> 
> How many days can they shout Azadi without earning to eat their daily bread. ??
> 
> We know that and thats why we let them to shout --- Shout how much loud they can --- Eventually they have to get back to their jobs and move on.
> 
> to the ways if the cruel Bhartis.



Ouch! That's gotta hurt. 

*P.S.* Karthic, don't you get bored? See my post at the top of the page.


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## KS

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> *P.S.* Karthic, don't you get bored? See my post at the top of the page.



When they dont get bored of chasing a chimera that never existed or is never going to, why should I when I am very much grounded in reality.

Its a good pastime too.

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## Xestan

A post on Frontline Kashmir!!

Frontline Kashmir As a response to Farooq Abdullah's today's rant, we just want to tell him that not a single true kashmiri can accept the proposal of development, roads, education, electricity bla bla at the cost of Freedom. Our dignity comes before Developments. Our Islamic values come before development. we place the blood of martyrs above all. " Koi bhi sacha Kashmiri tumharay khandan ki trha apni ghairat ka soda nahi kr sakta"


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## Xestan

And yeah, Occupying forces' camp in Sopore in Kashmir got attacked by Mujahideen just now


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## DesiGuy

UmEr Rajpoot said:


> You know what, We Pakistanis also used to shout like this before 1947 and look we tore India and made a new Country, so like that how can your terrorist army hold on the land which was never India




yep, thnx to the British! 
and surprised to see you soo happy when you said you *tore* India!!! 

why am i not surprised!!!!!

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## KS

UmEr Rajpoot said:


> You know what, We Pakistanis also used to shout like this before 1947 and look we tore India and made a new Country, so like that how can your *terrorist army* hold on the land which was never India



Actually ,with the benefit of hindsight,I thank your leaders for forming Pakistan as it seems to have avoided India many problems,which would have otherwise be suicidal for us. BTW I hope you do remember that we also tore your country once.

As for the Terrorist Army,Call it whatever you want,it doesnt even scratch the back of a rat living in India. 



UmEr Rajpoot said:


> Feel the difference!



Havent felt for the last 63 years.And not going to feel anytime soon.



UmEr Rajpoot said:


> You would enjoy the killings of innocents, keep doing that but History have never witnessed any sacrifices going in vain.. So WAKE UP Dude, Hindutva thingy is going to end soon, let it be hundred years more, *Kashmiris are not gonna give up,* MARK my words



Well then all I can say is a hearty,All the best.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

UmEr Rajpoot said:


> You know what, We Pakistanis also used to shout like this before 1947 and look we tore India and made a new Country, so like that how can your *terrorist army* hold on the land which was never India
> 
> Feel the difference!
> 
> You would enjoy the killings of innocents, keep doing that but History have never witnessed any sacrifices going in vain.. So WAKE UP Dude, Hindutva thingy is going to end soon, let it be hundred years more, Kashmiris are not gonna give up, MARK my words



Post reported for violation of libel policy on kashmir.


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## DesiGuy

even so called Pakistan is not your land. it belonged to India.


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## Xestan

Kashmir will never be a part of India, for more information please contact Arundhati Roy


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## KS

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Post reported for violation of libel policy on kashmir.



Naah leave it. We need some spice in discussion. 



UmEr Rajpoot said:


> Kashmir will never be a part of India, for more information please contact Arundhati Roy



She is currently out of station on a all expenses paid government vacation


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> *Kashmir will never become a part of Pak: Farooq Abdullah​*
> 
> Kashmir will never become a part of Pak: Farooq Abdullah



Then lets hold a plebiscite per the UNSC resolutions and see whether the majority of the residents of J&K agree with your position, or, as is most likely, you are an aging gas bag acting as a propaganda tool for those who gave you a 'ministry' and pay your wages.

Till you agree to let the Kashmiris decide between Pakistan and India, these claims are nothing but the usual meaningless hot air from India and Indians.

Thread closed.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

_There will be no Pakistan here. Kashmir will never become a part of Pakistan, Abdullah thundered as the people listened in rapt attention._

I like the spin the Indian media put on the crowd's reaction - 'rapt attention' (deafening silence?) 

Should have been greeted with rapturous applause and slogans of 'Hindustan Zindabad' and all that if FA's words actually had any truth to them.

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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Link to Site - Use At Own Risk. Haven't found anything out of the 'ordinary' there though.

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## American Pakistani

Wow look like Cyber war is very hot between Pak-Ind nowadays. Well was started by India Cyber Army, Pakistan Cyber Army is just reponding.


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## Fasih Khan

*Jazakum Allah Kher Mohtaram Gillani Sahab. Pakistan is Always there for you. May Allah Almighty grants you the success in bringing the Occupational forces to Death. Ameen. Kashmir Banae Ga Pakistan, Insha' Allah.*

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## GUNS-N- ROSES

every one has right to speak in democracy. and Mr geelani is no different. but i dont think hurriyat represents the whole of kashmir. hell even moderate hurriyat kashimiri leaders dont agree with him. kashmiris constitute of hindus, muslims and buddhists. no. of people who are influenced by this propoganda are very less. if they want they can go to "so called azad kashmir" and settle there. may be there they can get dose of real "freedom" which they havent got in india.


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## AMCA

*AMCA*: We are Indians and India is Ours... Get Lost Geelani


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## Hindustani

Fair deal.. pakistan is his and Jammu & Kashmir is ours


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## Nanbaenda

lol at the INDIANS... you guys have time to comment on his BS???


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## Fireurimagination

LOL These are the poor, oppressed, brutalized by Indian army separatist. They are nothing more than a bunch of hooligans. Hope the police gives them a good stick the next time they try to force a bandh or anything

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## Enigma

Fasih Khan said:


> *Jazakum Allah Kher Mohtaram Gillani Sahab. Pakistan is Always there for you. May Allah Almighty grants you the success in bringing the Occupational forces to Death. Ameen. Kashmir Banae Ga Pakistan, Insha' Allah.*



*KHAYALI PULAO *


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## Hindustani

Pathetic way of showing dissatisfaction of the government. They appear to be nothing more than a nuisance to the country


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## Hindustani

@fasih khan 

Post reported for praising killing. I hope the mods do something about it, rather than ignore their own countrymen.


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## Fasih Khan

*I hope the Mods would Understand, that I said what I said in answer to some hooligans supporting the Destructional & Brutal Forces Occupying Jammu and Kashmir. I said death to the Occupation and would Always Say what I said. The posters here said all kind of obnoxious & Disgraceful comments for Respectable Syed Ali Gillani, the Senior Leader of Jammu and Kashmir and of Pakistan, someone has to be answerable for all this.*

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## Yeti

Pakistan is yours and Kashmir is ours i agree with geelani for the first time


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## Devil Soul

*Congress minister stokes row, give "Azadi" to Kashmir*
PTI, Dec 6, 2010, 08.00pm IST

JAMMU: A Jammu and Kashmir minister belonging to Congress has stoked a controversy by suggesting that Kashmir be granted "Azadi", remarks that embarassed his party which termed them as his personal view. 

Addressing a rally at Bani in Kathua district on Sunday, Congress Minister for Health and Horticulture Sham Lal Sharma had raised the demand for making Jammu a separate state, giving union territory status to Ladakh and granting "Azadi" to Kashmir. 

"Give freedom to Kashmir, that's more beneficial. Give separate statehood status to Jammu and make Ladakh a union territory. If this state has to be developed, this is the only solution", Sharma said in the presence of PCC chief Saifuddin Soz. 

His remarks drew a sharp attack from state BJP which alleged they "tantamount to treason" and demanded his dismissal from the government and arrest. 

In damage-control mode, Congress spokesman Abhishek Singhvi described Sharma's remarks as his "personal view" and said the party's stand "is very clear--autonomy within the framework of the Indian Constitution". 

The remarks by Sham Lal Sharma had made Soz and his senior party leaders uneasy at the rally. In fact, Soz had tried to initiate damage control and expressed his party's resolve to keep all the three regions of the state united to ensure equal and balanced development in all the regions. 

"We are all answerable to AICC President Sonia Gandhi and what we say here be considered as the Congress word and we must speak along the party's line", Soz said. 

Seeking to downplay Sharma's view, Singhvi told reporters in Delhi that "I can only describe it as a personal opinion (of Sharma). He was having a discussion at rally in his own home state and certainly this is his personal view". 

"Some of the words which I have heard, I can either describe it as a metaphorical speak and should not be taken literally", he said adding "in any case, we do not accept any such allegations". 

BJP National Executive Member and former Pradesh President Nirmal Singh told reporters here that "Sharma has taken oath under the Constitution and his statement tantamounts to treason and therefore an FIR should be registered against him and he should be arrested forthwith". 

After making such a statement Sharma has no locus standi to be in the ministry and he should be dismissed Singh said.
Congress minister stokes row, give "Azadi" to Kashmir - The Times of India

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## LURKER

people of India demand congress be kicked out from the centre in the next lok sabha elections


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## ajtr

what basically he is suggesting is bifurcation of kashmir based on musharraff's nelam valley formula.


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## avsrox

MR.Sham Lal Sharma is a jammuite and a dogra minister.not a kashmiri
one.morover he was emotional while he was talking aboutdiscrimination with the people of jammu while kashmir gets a big chunk of centre`s wealth and funds depite crying for azadi


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## Infinity

avsrox said:


> MR.Sham Lal Sharma is a jammuite and a dogra minister.not a kashmiri
> one.morover he was emotional while he was talking aboutdiscrimination with the people of jammu while kashmir gets a big chunk of centre`s wealth and funds depite crying for azadi



You are 100% right. You can see the level of frustration in Jammu as all the center funds flows to Kashmir.
But That doesn,t Justify his speech.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

a bold and telling statement from the Minister

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## CaptainJackSparrow

The reason he is citing is solely a financial one, not based on morality or ethics or other such BS.

Anyways, money is no reason to break the country.


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## Rafi

A courageous stand by the honourable minister, he is speaking the truth and more power to the gentleman. Even members of the indian establishment recognise the fallacy of indian occupied Kashmir is theirs.


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## Rafi

Devil Soul said:


> *Congress minister stokes row, give "Azadi" to Kashmir*
> PTI, Dec 6, 2010, 08.00pm IST
> 
> JAMMU: A Jammu and Kashmir minister belonging to Congress has stoked a controversy by suggesting that Kashmir be granted "Azadi", remarks that embarassed his party which termed them as his personal view.
> 
> Addressing a rally at Bani in Kathua district on Sunday, Congress Minister for Health and Horticulture Sham Lal Sharma had raised the demand for making Jammu a separate state, giving union territory status to Ladakh and granting "Azadi" to Kashmir.
> 
> "Give freedom to Kashmir, that's more beneficial. Give separate statehood status to Jammu and make Ladakh a union territory. If this state has to be developed, this is the only solution", Sharma said in the presence of PCC chief Saifuddin Soz.
> 
> His remarks drew a sharp attack from state BJP which alleged they "tantamount to treason" and demanded his dismissal from the government and arrest.
> 
> In damage-control mode, Congress spokesman Abhishek Singhvi described Sharma's remarks as his "personal view" and said the party's stand "is very clear--autonomy within the framework of the Indian Constitution".
> 
> The remarks by Sham Lal Sharma had made Soz and his senior party leaders uneasy at the rally. In fact, Soz had tried to initiate damage control and expressed his party's resolve to keep all the three regions of the state united to ensure equal and balanced development in all the regions.
> 
> "We are all answerable to AICC President Sonia Gandhi and what we say here be considered as the Congress word and we must speak along the party's line", Soz said.
> 
> Seeking to downplay Sharma's view, Singhvi told reporters in Delhi that "I can only describe it as a personal opinion (of Sharma). He was having a discussion at rally in his own home state and certainly this is his personal view".
> 
> "Some of the words which I have heard, I can either describe it as a metaphorical speak and should not be taken literally", he said adding "in any case, we do not accept any such allegations".
> 
> BJP National Executive Member and former Pradesh President Nirmal Singh told reporters here that "Sharma has taken oath under the Constitution and his statement tantamounts to treason and therefore an FIR should be registered against him and he should be arrested forthwith".
> 
> After making such a statement Sharma has no locus standi to be in the ministry and he should be dismissed Singh said.
> Congress minister stokes row, give "Azadi" to Kashmir - The Times of India



Congress Minister is a hero, and a giant amongst pygmies, he knows that it is the interest of india to release a captive people.


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## Abu Zolfiqar




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## Rafi

Just beautiful, brings tears of joy to ones eyes, to see that the people of Kashmir are succeeding in getting indians to think their way.


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## Rafi

A trusted minister feels what we Pakistanis have been saying for decades now, "Mr Singh tear down that wall"


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Rafi said:


> the people of Kashmir are succeeding in getting indians to think their way.



lol Do you seriously feel that way while reading our responses on PDF?

Good for you!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

sounds like ''sharma'' is more aware of ground realities and accepts that Kashmiris want nothing to do with hindustan

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## Rafi

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> lol Do you seriously feel that way while reading our responses on PDF?
> 
> Good for you!



Parley Captain Sparrow, how be the Black Pearl, and how be Port Royale and has news of the indian minister reached the famed Pirates of the Caribbean.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Rafi said:


> Parley Captain Sparrow, how be the Black Pearl, and how be Port Royale and has news of the indian minister reached the famed Pirates of the Caribbean.



Most certainly sire!

The lamentable tidings of the minister's illness hath reached us.

A bottle of rum might be sent to the minister with a 'Get Well Soon' card.

*P.S.* I have abandoned the black pearl though. En route to the fountain of youth on a rubber dinghy riding stranger tides.

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## Rafi

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> sounds like ''sharma'' is more aware of ground realities and accepts that Kashmiris want nothing to do with hindustan



This sharma geezer is a trusted member of the indian establishment and therefore his sources are impeccable. He has given a huge fillip to the Kashmiri cause, it is a fact now that members of the govt know the futility of the occupation their.


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## Rafi

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Most certainly sire!
> 
> The lamentable tidings of the minister's illness hath reached us.
> 
> A bottle of rum might be sent to the minister with a 'Get Well Soon' card.



whatever our disagreements you got a nice sense of humour bro

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## Peshwa

Rafi said:


> This sharma geezer is a trusted member of the indian establishment and therefore his sources are impeccable. He has given a huge fillip to the Kashmiri cause, it is a fact now that members of the govt know the futility of the occupation their.



You're right...."Sharma" has said it so it must be true....I think you should deal with this trusted member of the Indian establishment to "free Kashmir"....Im sure you will succeed since Sharma's opinion is held in high regard in India....LOL!

BTW....Who is this Sharma again and what are his "impeccable sources"?


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## Rafi

Peshwa said:


> You're right...."Sharma" has said it so it must be true....I think you should deal with this trusted member of the Indian establishment to "free Kashmir"....Im sure you will succeed since Sharma's opinion is held in high regard in India....LOL!
> 
> BTW....Who is this Sharma again and what are his "impeccable sources"?



He is a state minister for health is he not, and he is just the start, indian intellectuals have increasingly appealed to their govt, to allow the Kashmiri people their freedom.

This could be the indian minister himself  






just a bit of light hearted banter


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## Peshwa

One must realize that the power to "break" India lies in the decision of the Indians.....meaning unless the masses of India believe Kashmir needs to be freed and vote for the same....no politician or political party can unilaterally decide the fate of this region...

So as much as people on the other side of the fence feel that this is some sort of an endorsement of their stand, it is simply an opinion and thats all it is!

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## KS

Peshwa said:


> One must realize that the power to "break" India lies in the decision of the Indians.....meaning unless the masses of India believe Kashmir needs to be freed and vote for the same....no politician or political party can unilaterally decide the fate of this region...
> 
> So as much as people on the other side of the fence feel that this is some sort of an endorsement of their stand, it is simply an opinion and thats all it is!



Does my signature reflect the idea of your post ?

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## Pagla Dashu

^^ Give us a break will ya. The dude first says he is a 'Christian'(3:07), then says he is a 'Muslim'(4:09). Let him first figure out what religion he belongs to, then may be we shall give him a hearing. I actually stopped listening once he said that he is 'Christian but... I'm a circumcised Muslim'(4:15) (whatever that means).

An effing liar.

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## Hindustani

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> YouTube - As a Kashmiri why I think I am not an Indian





"I'm a Christian but a circumcised muslim" Wtf does that mean


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## Rafi

Peshwa said:


> One must realize that the power to "break" India lies in the decision of the Indians.....meaning unless the masses of India believe Kashmir needs to be freed and vote for the same....no politician or political party can unilaterally decide the fate of this region...
> 
> So as much as people on the other side of the fence feel that this is some sort of an endorsement of their stand, it is simply an opinion and thats all it is!



My friend all the tyranny cannot hold a man in chains forever, the brits used to laugh at Gandhi, saying how a half naked fakir would kick them out. The Kashmiri people have decided that they wish to be free. This poem represents better than what words I could use.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Pagla Dashu said:


> ^^ Give us a break will ya. The dude first says he is a 'Christian'(3:07), then says he is a 'Muslim'(4:09). Let him first figure out what religion he belongs to, then may be we shall give him a hearing. I actually stopped listening once he said that he is 'Christian but... I'm a circumcised Muslim'(4:15) (whatever that means).
> 
> An effing liar.



being 'secular' and all, what is it to you?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

hacktivism has been going on for quite some years now --especially regarding Kashmiri occupation


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Kashmir focus! | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online



> by Khalid Iqbal
> 
> Although India harbours a delusion that one day the Kashmir dispute would stand eroded beyond recognition, there&#8217;s no indicator that it would ever happen. History tells us that disputes cannot be shied away; ultimately they have to be resolved. Over the recent months, the Kashmir conflict has indeed become an eye-catcher for individuals, states, and international institutions.
> 
> The current unease in Indian Held Kashmir (IHK), which has claimed more than 100 lives, is very different from the previous uprisings. It is largely a homegrown non-violent political movement being propelled exclusively by local Kashmiri youth.
> 
> They have put Kashmir&#8217;s resistance on the internet. A decade ago, the Indian troops could cordon off Kashmir, yet stay unnoticed, but now their atrocities are being observed online 24 hours a day and seven days a week.
> 
> As international pressure is incrementally mounting on India, its frustration is snowballing. There are no signs of the situation in Kashmir returning to normal. There are ominous indicators that the occupied state&#8217;s government is resorting to strong-arm strategy to suppress a genuine political movement of the estranged masses to smother the voice of political dissent.
> 
> For this, the policy pursued by the Indian administration for over two decades, from early 1990s onward, may soon be back in full swing. This would invariably add an element of militancy to the movement.
> 
> During the 2009 session of the UN General Assembly, President Muammar al-Gaddafi highlighted the disputed nature of IHK, though from his own perspective; Libya has since then been sponsoring follow-up actions in support of its Kashmir policy.
> 
> Now, Iran has taken the initiative by focusing on Kashmir and mentioning it as an occupied territory. Over the preceding six months or so, Tehran has supported the Kashmir struggle at least on three occasions, and has bracketed the situation in the state with Gaza and Afghanistan.
> 
> Recently, in his message to the Haj pilgrims, Ayatollah Khamenei called upon the Muslims across the world to back the liberation movement in Kashmir. He said: &#8220;Today, the major duty of the elite of the Ummah is to provide help to the Palestinian nation, to sympathise and provide assistance to the nations of Afghanistan, Iraq and Kashmir, to engage in struggle and resistance against the aggressions of the US and the Zionist regime.&#8221;
> 
> Iran has taken a principled stance; this indeed marks its &#8216;comeback home&#8217; in the context of its original Kashmir policy.

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## Pagla Dashu

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> being 'secular' and all, what is it to you?


And how is 'secularism' even remotely related to this dimwit's propaganda video?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Pagla Dashu said:


> And how is 'secularism' even remotely related to this dimwit's propaganda video?



ask your fellow indian (Hindustani) who made a point regarding the man's views and intepretations on his faith

ask yourself as well........since you were the one also posing such questions

I got this ''dimwits'' video from a Kashmiri facebook page, I see nothing propagandic about it as he isnt really sensationalizing or inciting hatred; merely exercising the freedom of speech. Rights which I assume you do enjoy


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## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> ask your fellow indian (Hindustani) who made a point regarding the man's views and intepretations on his faith



What was wrong in his question ?---


> I am a Christian but also a Circumcised Muslim


. 



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> ask yourself as well........since you were the one also posing such questions



I asked myself and even googled for the term 'Islamic Christian',but sadly even google got confused.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I got this '*'dimwits'*' video from a Kashmiri facebook page, I see nothing propagandic about it as he isnt really sensationalizing or inciting hatred; merely exercising the freedom of speech. Rights which I assume you do enjoy



There is nothing propagandic in it --- for propaganda is the clever manipulation of facts to further one's own agenda.

This guy is just a welcome break of comedy and is just of nuisance value.


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## A1Kaid

I think any person on this forum who calls Kashmiris as "Indians" should be automatically banned.


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## GUNS-N- ROSES

A1Kaid said:


> I think any person on this forum who calls Kashmiris as "Indians" should be automatically banned.



oh yeah. nice try.


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

Karthic Sri said:


> What was wrong in his question ?--- .



what was wrong with mine? 

i.e. why bring up religion in this topic to begin with --I'd pose a similar question to the v-blogger himself even

Occupied Kashmir is one issue where secularist and orthodox leanings play little to no roll in the art or act of strategic defiance and seperatism from hindustan



> I asked myself and even googled for the term 'Islamic Christian',but sadly even google got confused.



try vegetarian Quarter pounder big mac with fries and McFlurry....maybe google will be less confused




> There is nothing propagandic in it --- for propaganda is the clever manipulation of facts to further one's own agenda.



which you'd have to point out where in the video said manipulation takes place.....unless you will willingly chuck the logic of your fellow comrade in the dust bin for him




> This guy is just a welcome break of comedy and is just of nuisance value.



a blogger in Sri Nagar wont make much difference.....but at a time when facebook and other sites are BANNED by the occupation forces in iOK, it is nice to catch a perspective from such people

especially when we (Pakistanis) feel very close to them and have moral reasons to back and support them unequivocally till death do us part


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## Ganguly

Hindustani said:


> "I'm a Christian but a circumcised muslim" Wtf does that mean



Simple. He is a Christian & Hurriyat helped him in circumcision. No bullets only blade used for conversion.


----------



## twoplustwoisfour

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> what was wrong with mine?
> 
> i.e. why bring up religion in this topic to begin with --I'd pose a similar question to the v-blogger himself even
> 
> *Occupied Kashmir is one issue where secularist and orthodox leanings play little to no roll in the art or act of strategic defiance and seperatism from hindustan*



Not true at all. The entire issue of division of Jammu & Kashmir is based on religious outlook. The so called separatists are demanding cessation from the Indian Union due to their differing religious leanings. In fact, a major party in the dispute, Pakistan, was founded on religious grounds.How can you say religion does not matter in the Kashmir Issue?


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## GentlemanObserver

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> *Kashmiris were Indians.
> 
> Kashmiris are Indians.
> 
> Kashmiris will always remain Indians*
> 
> Oops!  Watcha gonna do now kid?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *P.S.* If I'm not wrong, were you not flaunting Israeli falgs sometime back? So now you have switched your loyalty to the United Sates? What's next?








opps....


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## PakiiZeeshan

*Geelani hits back at Farooq, calls him brash *

Monday, 06 December 2010 20:02 KDNN 

Srinagar: A day after Farooq Abdullah launched a scathing attack on him, Hurriyat(G) chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani Monday hit back, calling the National Conference patron and union minister brash. 

*Farooq Abdullah is a conscienceless person whose party and family is responsible for all the miseries and sufferings of Kashmiris, Geelani said in a statement.*

*National Conference and the Sheikh family are the Mir Jafars and Sadiqs of Kashmir. Had they not deceived Kashmiris at every step there would have been no Kashmir issue, no political instability in the sub-continent nor would there have been any animosity between India and Pakistan, Geelani said.*

The octogenarian said the Kashmir dispute was not his or Hurriyat Conferences creation, but 'a product of Sheikh Abdullah and National Conferences treacherous politics.

If Sheikh Abdullah, under the influence of Indian leaders, had not converted the Muslim Conference into National Conference in 1938, Kashmirs history would have been different today. If National Conference had not validated the accession in 1947 for the sake of enjoying power, Indian troops wouldnt have been killing our youth. The oppression unleashed by National Conference during its tenure from 1947 to 1953 is a tragic part of our history. It was a period when Azadi-seeking people were tortured or exiled, and even tuning into Radio Pakistan was considered a punishable crime, he said.

It was the loss of power in 1953 that, according to its own leaders, forced the NC to opt for political vagrancy for 22 years. Otherwise, they wouldnt have taken the seat of power given in charity by New Delhi in 1975 for burying the demand of plebiscite, Geelani added.

Lashing out at Farooq Abdullah, Geelani said it was he who signed the death orders of Shaheed Maqbool Butt, a man he had taken oath with for liberating Kashmir. When he began to lose, he rigged the elections wholesale in 1987, forcing desperate Kashmiri youth to pick up guns. And then, after the sacrifices of thousands of Kashmiris, Farooq Abdullah stabbed this nation in the back again by participating in 1996 elections. Dreaded Task Force responsible for the murder of thousands of innocent Kashmiris is his creation. There is only one reason for Indian occupation of Kashmir : Farooq Abdullah and his family, he said.

Geelani said that he was against Indias military occupation of Kashmir and would never change his stand. Even if they hang me I would never change my stand unlike Farooq Abdullah and NC.

Reacting to Chief Minister, Omar Abdullahs statement that separatists shall talk to India having talked to its parliamentarians, Geelani said, Unless and until India openly accepts Kashmir dispute, there is no question of talking to New Delhi. However, we will talk to Indians who meet us in informal manner.


Geelani hits back at Farooq, calls him ?brash?


----------



## Awesome

Amazing now echoes of Azaadi are being sounded in the Indian government. Shor Macha, Awaz utha, Kadam barha! It is significant that a senior Indian minister has come to his senses and is discussing terms of granting Azaadi to KAshmir.

---------- Post added at 06:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:01 PM ----------

On another note, I hope he too doesn't get slammed with sedition charges as its India's favorite charge these days.

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## Pagla Dashu

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> what was wrong with mine?
> 
> i.e. why bring up religion in this topic to begin with --I'd pose a similar question to the v-blogger himself even


Religion was 'brought' in because the dimwit has done it himself to give an impression of how, if a Kashmiri Christian is discriminated in a way that he was apparently treated, a Kashmiri Muslim is treated (5:42). It was therefore necessary to call his bluff. It was also necessary to establish his credibility, or rather, the lack thereof.


> Occupied Kashmir is one issue where secularist and orthodox leanings play little to no roll in the art or act of strategic defiance and seperatism from hindustan


Regrettably, the secular nature of Kashmiri 'movement' was killed when armed insurgency took over. 



> which you'd have to point out where in the video said manipulation takes place.....unless you will willingly chuck the logic of your fellow comrade in the dust bin for him


First, he tries to pose as a Christian when clearly, by his own admission or rather slip of tongue, he is not. Second, in an attempt to paint an image of evil India, he narrates an incidence of Andhra Pradesh where he was apparently refused medical treatment because he was a 'Christian but was a circumcised Muslim'. But curiously, his friends managed to take him to a hospital '300 Km' from the said hospital. The dimwit didn't realise that '300 Km' from the said hospital, if he is not bang in the middle of the sea, he would still be in India, and by his own admission got treated by Indian doctors only. etc. etc.

He is just plain BSing, and effing that up as well.



> especially when we (Pakistanis) feel very close to them and have moral reasons to back and support them unequivocally till death do us part


This overdose of emotion is what makes certain Pakistanis, however well meaning they may be, susceptible to such propaganda.

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## CaptainJackSparrow

Azad Kashmir said:


> Sorry, but we don't want to be with India. Neither where we Indians. We're Kashmiris and we've had our State longer than India, if you count the period of 63 years of occupation.



Then go! Who's stopping you?

But the land of Kashmir remains in India. The sooner you get that into your head, the better for you.

In 1947, those who wanted to go to Pakistan, went to Pakistan while leaving their lands and property behind.

We won't mind if something like that happens once again.

If you want to go, please do go but the land stays.


----------



## Kashmiri Nationalist

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Then go! Who's stopping you?
> 
> But the land of Kashmir remains in India. The sooner you get that into your head, the better for you.
> 
> In 1947, those who wanted to go to Pakistan, went to Pakistan while leaving their lands and property behind.
> 
> We won't mind if something like that happens once again.
> 
> If you want to go, please do go but the land stays.



The land is ours, we've lived on it for centuries. That's right, us - not India.


----------



## CaptainJackSparrow

Azad Kashmir said:


> The land is ours, we've lived on it for centuries. That's right, us - not India.



Again!

The land which forms modern-day Pakistan and Bangladesh was once-upon-a-time, India but because of partition, a lot many people had to leave that land and move to modern-day India.

If it happened once, why can't it happen again. In fact, I believe that should righfully happen since we already have a precedent set upon us.

If you don't like it here, you are free to leave but the land stays.

This is what happened in 1947, it can and should happen again.


----------



## Rafi

Kashmiris are not going anywhere it is the fascist indian govt that will have to go, 

*Congress minister stokes row, give "Azadi" to Kashmir*
PTI, Dec 6, 2010, 08.00pm IST

*JAMMU: A Jammu and Kashmir minister belonging to Congress has stoked a controversy by suggesting that Kashmir be granted "Azadi"*, remarks that embarassed his party which termed them as his personal view. 

Addressing a rally at Bani in Kathua district on Sunday, Congress Minister for Health and Horticulture Sham Lal Sharma had raised the demand for making Jammu a separate state, giving union territory status to Ladakh and granting *"Azadi" to Kashmir. *

*"Give freedom to Kashmir, that's more beneficial. Give separate statehood status to Jammu and make Ladakh a union territory. If this state has to be developed, this is the only solution", Sharma said in the presence of PCC chief Saifuddin Soz. *

His remarks drew a sharp attack from state BJP which alleged they "tantamount to treason" and demanded his dismissal from the government and arrest. 

In damage-control mode, Congress spokesman Abhishek Singhvi described Sharma's remarks as his "personal view" and said the party's stand "is very clear--autonomy within the framework of the Indian Constitution". 

The remarks by Sham Lal Sharma had made Soz and his senior party leaders uneasy at the rally. In fact, Soz had tried to initiate damage control and expressed his party's resolve to keep all the three regions of the state united to ensure equal and balanced development in all the regions. 

"We are all answerable to AICC President Sonia Gandhi and what we say here be considered as the Congress word and we must speak along the party's line", Soz said. 

Seeking to downplay Sharma's view, Singhvi told reporters in Delhi that "I can only describe it as a personal opinion (of Sharma). He was having a discussion at rally in his own home state and certainly this is his personal view". 

"Some of the words which I have heard, I can either describe it as a metaphorical speak and should not be taken literally", he said adding "in any case, we do not accept any such allegations". 

BJP National Executive Member and former Pradesh President Nirmal Singh told reporters here that "Sharma has taken oath under the Constitution and his statement tantamounts to treason and therefore an FIR should be registered against him and he should be arrested forthwith". 

After making such a statement Sharma has no locus standi to be in the ministry and he should be dismissed Singh said.
Congress minister stokes row, give "Azadi" to Kashmir - The Times of India

---------- Post added at 12:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 AM ----------

YouTube - J&K minister stirs fresh controversy


----------



## Rafi

YouTube - When Men Become Truly Free

To those who think the Kashmiri can be stopped


----------



## CaptainJackSparrow

^^ Honey, in future, if you expect me to reply, talk to me based on logic and not rhetoric.

Now read posts 1208 and 1211 and then we shall talk, if you could refrain from mindless rhetoric though.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Again!
> 
> The land which forms modern-day Pakistan and Bangladesh was once-upon-a-time, India but because of partition, a lot many people had to leave that land and move to modern-day India.
> 
> If it happened once, why can't it happen again. In fact, I believe that should righfully happen since we already have a precedent set upon us.
> 
> If you don't like it here, you are free to leave but the land stays.
> 
> This is what happened in 1947, it can and should happen again.



There was no nation called India until 1947 - stop posting nonsense please.

And during partition of the British colony of India, millions left their lands and homes and moved to Pakistan as well - it wasn't one way traffic.


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> There was no nation called India until 1947 - stop posting nonsense please.



Correction,Republic of India did not exist prior to 1947.


----------



## CaptainJackSparrow

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> There was no nation called India until 1947 - stop posting nonsense please.



Ok let's make it British India, shall we?

The point stays though, that people, if required by circumstances can be told to leave their lands and properties in order to fecilitate formation of new countries. 

The same precedent can be cited now.

Nothing has changed, once again, the people on both sides of LoC can be told to pack their beloongings and move to the other side if they so wish.


----------



## Rafi

Rafi said:


> Kashmiris are not going anywhere it is the fascist indian govt that will have to go,
> 
> *Congress minister stokes row, give "Azadi" to Kashmir*
> PTI, Dec 6, 2010, 08.00pm IST
> 
> *JAMMU: A Jammu and Kashmir minister belonging to Congress has stoked a controversy by suggesting that Kashmir be granted "Azadi"*, remarks that embarassed his party which termed them as his personal view.
> 
> Addressing a rally at Bani in Kathua district on Sunday, Congress Minister for Health and Horticulture Sham Lal Sharma had raised the demand for making Jammu a separate state, giving union territory status to Ladakh and granting *"Azadi" to Kashmir. *
> 
> *"Give freedom to Kashmir, that's more beneficial. Give separate statehood status to Jammu and make Ladakh a union territory. If this state has to be developed, this is the only solution", Sharma said in the presence of PCC chief Saifuddin Soz. *
> 
> His remarks drew a sharp attack from state BJP which alleged they "tantamount to treason" and demanded his dismissal from the government and arrest.
> 
> In damage-control mode, Congress spokesman Abhishek Singhvi described Sharma's remarks as his "personal view" and said the party's stand "is very clear--autonomy within the framework of the Indian Constitution".
> 
> The remarks by Sham Lal Sharma had made Soz and his senior party leaders uneasy at the rally. In fact, Soz had tried to initiate damage control and expressed his party's resolve to keep all the three regions of the state united to ensure equal and balanced development in all the regions.
> 
> "We are all answerable to AICC President Sonia Gandhi and what we say here be considered as the Congress word and we must speak along the party's line", Soz said.
> 
> Seeking to downplay Sharma's view, Singhvi told reporters in Delhi that "I can only describe it as a personal opinion (of Sharma). He was having a discussion at rally in his own home state and certainly this is his personal view".
> 
> "Some of the words which I have heard, I can either describe it as a metaphorical speak and should not be taken literally", he said adding "in any case, we do not accept any such allegations".
> 
> BJP National Executive Member and former Pradesh President Nirmal Singh told reporters here that "Sharma has taken oath under the Constitution and his statement tantamounts to treason and therefore an FIR should be registered against him and he should be arrested forthwith".
> 
> After making such a statement Sharma has no locus standi to be in the ministry and he should be dismissed Singh said.
> Congress minister stokes row, give "Azadi" to Kashmir - The Times of India
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 AM ----------
> 
> YouTube - J&K minister stirs fresh controversy



Where is the rhetoric in this my child, it is the speech of a senior minister who believes that Kashmir should be given Azadi


----------



## CaptainJackSparrow

^^ When a post , my dear uncle, is irrelevant to the flow of the argument and in no way contributes to it, it is called rhetoric.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Ok let's make it British India, shall we?
> 
> The point stays though, that people, if required by circumstances can be told to leave their lands and properties in order to fecilitate formation of new countries.
> 
> The same precedent can be cited now.



False - people were not told to leave their lands and properties, they made a choice to do so after the pal for dividing the British Colony of India was accepted by the British, Muslim League and Congress, and the peoples of the territories that comprised Pakistan voted for the ML and supported its platform for Pakistan.

In the case of Kashmir, India, Pakistan and the international community have already accepted a plan for resolving the status of the region, which is to allow the people of Kashmir to determine their future status as part of India or Pakistan.

Therefore the correct comparison with the partition of British India would be the partition of J&K based on the wishes of the people i.e. we can do a district by district plebiscite and have geographically contiguous districts become a part of the nation its people choose.


----------



## Rafi

Bombensturm said:


> Correction,Republic of India did not exist prior to 1947.



*India is as much a country as the Equator: Sir Winston Churchill*

It is a total fallacy that india is a nation, it is not culturally, linguistically, or ethnically homogeneous, NUFF SAID.


----------



## Rafi

Congress minister stokes row, give "Azadi" to Kashmir
PTI, Dec 6, 2010, 08.00pm IST

JAMMU: A Jammu and Kashmir minister belonging to Congress has stoked a controversy by suggesting that Kashmir be granted "Azadi", remarks that embarassed his party which termed them as his personal view. 

Addressing a rally at Bani in Kathua district on Sunday, Congress Minister for Health and Horticulture Sham Lal Sharma had raised the demand for making Jammu a separate state, giving union territory status to Ladakh and granting "Azadi" to Kashmir. 

"Give freedom to Kashmir, that's more beneficial. Give separate statehood status to Jammu and make Ladakh a union territory. If this state has to be developed, this is the only solution", Sharma said in the presence of PCC chief Saifuddin Soz. 

His remarks drew a sharp attack from state BJP which alleged they "tantamount to treason" and demanded his dismissal from the government and arrest. 

In damage-control mode, Congress spokesman Abhishek Singhvi described Sharma's remarks as his "personal view" and said the party's stand "is very clear--autonomy within the framework of the Indian Constitution". 

The remarks by Sham Lal Sharma had made Soz and his senior party leaders uneasy at the rally. In fact, Soz had tried to initiate damage control and expressed his party's resolve to keep all the three regions of the state united to ensure equal and balanced development in all the regions. 

"We are all answerable to AICC President Sonia Gandhi and what we say here be considered as the Congress word and we must speak along the party's line", Soz said. 

Seeking to downplay Sharma's view, Singhvi told reporters in Delhi that "I can only describe it as a personal opinion (of Sharma). He was having a discussion at rally in his own home state and certainly this is his personal view". 

"Some of the words which I have heard, I can either describe it as a metaphorical speak and should not be taken literally", he said adding "in any case, we do not accept any such allegations". 

BJP National Executive Member and former Pradesh President Nirmal Singh told reporters here that "Sharma has taken oath under the Constitution and his statement tantamounts to treason and therefore an FIR should be registered against him and he should be arrested forthwith". 

After making such a statement Sharma has no locus standi to be in the ministry and he should be dismissed Singh said.
Congress minister stokes row, give "Azadi" to Kashmir - The Times of India

When a senior indian minister says in a public speech mind, that Kashmir should be given Azadi, then my friend the situation is indeed grave for the fascist forces of the occupier.


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

Rafi said:


> *India is as much a country as the Equator: Sir Winston Churchill*



Imperialist to the rescue ,eh?
I'm sure you also agree with what he had to say about Islam.



> It is a total fallacy that India is a nation, it is not culturally, linguistically, or ethnically homogeneous, NUFF SAID.



Just substitute _India_ with _Pakistan_, even Pakistan is linguistically,ethnically,culturally diverse. 

Though not as diverse as India.


----------



## Gandhi G in da house

Rafi said:


> *India is as much a country as the Equator: Sir Winston Churchill*
> 
> It is a total fallacy that india is a nation, it is not culturally, linguistically, or ethnically homogeneous, NUFF SAID.



Why do pakistanis keep quoting winston churchill to prove that India was not a nation ?

Who is winston churchill ? 

hai kaun ?

Mere ta*te ka baal hai winston churchill.


----------



## CaptainJackSparrow

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> False - people were not told to leave their lands and properties, they made a choice to do so after the pal for dividing the British Colony of India was accepted by the British, Muslim League and Congress, and the peoples of the territories that comprised Pakistan voted for the ML and supported its platform for Pakistan.
> 
> In the case of Kashmir, India, Pakistan and the international community have already accepted a plan for resolving the status of the region, which is to allow the people of Kashmir to determine their future status as part of India or Pakistan.
> 
> Therefore the correct comparison with the partition of British India would be the partition of J&K based on the wishes of the people i.e. we can do a district by district plebiscite and have geographically contiguous districts become a part of the nation its people choose.



A plebiscite, dear AM, is not possible anymore for the following reasons:

1. The simla agreement supercedes the 1947 UN resolutions.

2. The UN resolutions do not offer any option of 'independence' or 'Azadi' to the kashmiris. The only options offered are India or Pakistan.

3. The UN secretary general is on record saying that the implementation of these plebiscites is no longer possible.

4. The demographics of the territory have altered way too much for any plebiscite to be conducted. The kashmiri Pandits have moved out in large numbers. Pakistan has allowed people from outside to settle in Gilhit-Baltistan.

5. A part of J&K, namely Aksai Chin, is now under the control of the PRC.

6. The resolutions are not binding upon any party be it India or Pakistan.

7. The people of Jammu and Ladakh are strictly against joining Pakistan (as is the only option other than joining India) and even so-called independence (hypothetically speaking).

In view of the above, the only possible solution left is that LoC be converted into IB and that free movement of people be allowed across this LoC. And in such a scenario, anyone who is willing to move to the other side is welcome to pack their belongings and move just like it happened in 1947.

Mind you, these are not emotional brownie points I'm making. This is a hardened legal standpoint on which any demand for any plebiscite whatsoever can be summarily rejected.


----------



## Rafi

Winston being a great man recognized the fallacy of india as a state, 

*JAMMU: A Jammu and Kashmir minister belonging to Congress has stoked a controversy by suggesting that Kashmir be granted "Azadi"*

This is what a senior indian minister thinks


----------



## Rafi

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> A plebiscite, dear AM, is not possible anymore for the following reasons:
> 
> 1. The simla agreement supercedes the 1947 UN resolutions.
> 
> 2. The UN resolutions do not offer any option of 'independence' or 'Azadi' to the kashmiris. The only options offered are India or Pakistan.
> 
> 3. The UN secretary general is on record saying that the implementation of these plebiscites is no longer possible.
> 
> 4. The demographics of the territory have altered way too much for any plebiscite to be conducted. The kashmiri Pandits have moved out in large numbers. Pakistan has allowed people from outside to settle in Gilhit-Baltistan.
> 
> 5. A part of J&K, namely Aksai Chin, is now under the control of the PRC.
> 
> 6. The resolutions are not binding upon any party be it India or Pakistan.
> 
> 7. The people of Jammu and Ladakh are strictly against joining Pakistan (as is the only option other than joining India) and even so-called independence (hypothetically speaking).
> 
> In view of the above, the only possible solution left is that LoC be converted into IB and that free movement of people be allowed across this LoC. And in such a scenario, anyone who is willing to move to the other side is welcome to pack their belongings and move just like it happened in 1947.
> 
> Mind you, these are not emotional brownie points I'm making. This is a hardened legal standpoint on which any demand for any plebiscite whatsoever can be summarily rejected.



We're not the ones you have to convince it is the people of Kashmir who want you out.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> A plebiscite, dear AM, is not possible anymore for the following reasons:
> 
> 1. The simla agreement supercedes the 1947 UN resolutions.


No it does not, this argument has been shown wrong dozens of times on this forum. Read the text of the Shimla Agreement and show me where it supercedes the 1947 UN resolutions, and if it does so, then why are the IWT and Sir Creek disputes still handled through international mediation?



> 2. The UN resolutions do not offer any option of 'independence' or 'Azadi' to the kashmiris. The only options offered are India or Pakistan.


Which has what to do with my comment?


> 3. The UN secretary general is on record saying that the implementation of these plebiscites is no longer possible.


His opinion, which carries no weight other than that of being an opinion - it does not do anything with respect to the UNSC resolutions.



> 4. The demographics of the territory have altered way too much for any plebiscite to be conducted. The kashmiri Pandits have moved out in large numbers. Pakistan has allowed people from outside to settle in Gilhit-Baltistan.


The Kashmir pundits can be contacted, verified and registered by the UN in order to obtain their vote in the plebiscite, and there remains no evidence, other than anecdotal, that the demographics in G-B have been altered beyond a few hundred families moving in here and there.



> 5. A part of J&K, namely Aksai Chin, is now under the control of the PRC.


A part that was barren and uninhabited when China took over administration. Pakistan's agreement with China on handing over administration does indicate that the status of the territories under Chines control will not be final until the UNSC resolutions are implemented.


> 6. The resolutions are not binding upon any party be it India or Pakistan.


Which does not change the fact that India committed to the UN, Pakistan and the Kashmir people repeatedly that it would implement the resolutions and that the people of J&K would determine their status through a plebiscite.


> 7. The people of Jammu and Ladakh are strictly against joining Pakistan (as is the only option other than joining India) and even so-called independence (hypothetically speaking).


That is something only a UN held plebiscite can determine conclusively.


> In view of the above, the only possible solution left is that LoC be converted into IB and that free movement of people be allowed across this LoC. And in such a scenario, anyone who is willing to move to the other side is welcome to pack their belongings and move just like it happened in 1947.


In view of the above, your 'cut and paste' talking points have been refuted and exposed for the ludicrous excuses for continuing Indian occupation and subjugation of the people and lands of J&K.


> Mind you, these are not emotional brownie points I'm making. This is a hardened legal standpoint on which any demand for any plebiscite whatsoever can be summarily rejected.


These are easily refutable 'cut and paste talking points and excuses'.


----------



## Pagla Dashu

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> False - people were not told to leave their lands and properties, they made a choice to do so after the pal for dividing the British Colony of India was accepted by the British, Muslim League and Congress, and the peoples of the territories that comprised Pakistan voted for the ML and supported its platform for Pakistan.


Really? So what was all the riots all about if it was not one community, in majority, telling the other, in minority, to eff off.



> In the case of Kashmir, India, Pakistan and the international community have already accepted a plan for resolving the status of the region, which is to allow the people of Kashmir to determine their future status as part of India or Pakistan.


Actually, India and international community have already abandoned the option of plebiscite for Kashmir. If news reports are to be believed, so has a section of Pakistani leadership. 



> Therefore the correct comparison with the partition of British India would be the partition of J&K based on the wishes of the people i.e. we can do a district by district plebiscite and have geographically contiguous districts become a part of the nation its people choose.


The decision to partition British India was not taken on the basis of any referendum. Once the decision of partition was already taken, referendums were held to decide which part shall remain with which dominion. Even then, it was not available uniformly to all the people, particularly those who were to be directly effected by partition.


----------



## Rafi

So loose an argument - you cut and run. 

*Congress minister stokes row, give "Azadi" to Kashmir*


*"Give freedom to Kashmir, that's more beneficial. Give separate statehood status to Jammu and make Ladakh a union territory. If this state has to be developed, this is the only solution", Sharma said in the presence of PCC chief Saifuddin Soz.
*


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Pagla Dashu said:


> Really? So what was all the riots all about if it was not one community, in majority, telling the other, in minority, to eff off.


Extremists, Sikh, Hindu and Muslim, attacking the other community - you know, like happened in India during the Babri Masji demolition, Gujarat riots, Christian-Hindu riots etc.



> Actually, India and international community have already abandoned the option of plebiscite for Kashmir. If news reports are to be believed, so has a section of Pakistani leadership.


That does not negated that validity of the argument I made, nor does it negate the validity of a plebiscite to resolve the dispute.


> The decision to partition British India was not taken on the basis of any referendum. Once the decision of partition was already taken, referendums were held to decide which part shall remain with which dominion. Even then, it was not available uniformly to all the people, particularly those who were to be directly effected by partition.



There is another thread on the two nation theory where this was discussed in detail - please read through that.

And while there was no referendum in every territory that became part of Pakistan, there was some sort of representative process in the form of elections or Jirga's where the platform of the Muslim League was supported.


----------



## Pagla Dashu

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No it does not, this argument has been shown wrong dozens of times on this forum. Read the text of the Shimla Agreement and show me where it supercedes the 1947 UN resolutions, and if it does so, then why are the IWT and Sir Creek disputes still handled through international mediation?


According to Shimla agreement;

...the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations or by any other peaceful means *mutually agreed upon between them*. ​
The key term is 'mutually agreed upon between them'. India doesn't agree to UN resolutions, and given that these resolutions have no legal validity, effectively, they stand nullified.

As with IWT and Sir Creek agreements, these have conflict resolution mechanism within the agreements itself. Besides, both the parties 'mutually agree between them' to adhere to those agreement.


----------



## Rafi

Pagla Dashu said:


> According to Shimla agreement;
> 
> ...the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations or by any other peaceful means *mutually agreed upon between them*. ​
> The key term is 'mutually agreed upon between them'. India doesn't agree to UN resolutions, and given that these resolutions have no legal validity, effectively, they stand nullified.
> 
> As with IWT and Sir Creek agreements, these have conflict resolution mechanism within the agreements itself. Besides, both the parties 'mutually agree between them' to adhere to those agreement.



your PM nehru effectively internationalised this issue by going to the UN - you don't except the resolutions - but the first prime minister of independent india opened pandora's box - and you can't close it now, because of that the people of Kashmir feel cheated.


----------



## Pagla Dashu

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Extremists, Sikh, Hindu and Muslim, attacking the other community - you know, like happened in India during the Babri Masji demolition, Gujarat riots, Christian-Hindu riots etc.


No I don't know. Neighbours attacking and killing neighbours, ordinary respectable citizens usurping another's wealth are now extrimists - well may be I don't know after all.



> That does not negated that validity of the argument I made, nor does it negate the validity of a plebiscite to resolve the dispute.


That actually completely negats the validity of your argument.



> And while there was no referendum in every territory that became part of Pakistan, there was some sort of representative process in the form of elections or Jirga's where the platform of the Muslim League was supported.


ML and Congress definitely had their followers. But, once again, the decision to partition India was never made to go through the rigors of public opinion.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Pagla Dashu said:


> According to Shimla agreement;
> 
> ...the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations or by any other peaceful means *mutually agreed upon between them*. ​
> The key term is 'mutually agreed upon between them'. India doesn't agree to UN resolutions, and given that these resolutions have no legal validity, effectively, they stand nullified.


The resolutions do not stand nullified, they only stand unimplemented since India refuses to do so, despite committing to them earlier. 

The only thing that language of Simla does is state the obvious, that any resolution of a dispute will have to be 'mutually agreed upon between them' - that potentially includes the UNSC resolutions at a future date, they are not nullified.


> As with IWT and Sir Creek agreements, these have conflict resolution mechanism within the agreements itself. Besides, both the parties 'mutually agree between them' to adhere to those agreement.


Exactly, and both parties can 'mutually agree between them' to implement the UNSC resolutions in some form as well, either as they stand currently, or with some changes/amendments.

Nothing in Simla nullifies the UNSC resolutions, it only emphasizes the obvious that any dispute resolution mechanism should be 'mutually agreed between the two countries'.


----------



## Rafi

The indian ministers sentiment is showing the tide is turning


----------



## Rafi

Our negotiators did one hell of a job in the Shimla accord, this was when we were at rock bottom, but we like the Phoenix rose from the ashes.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Pagla Dashu said:


> No I don't know. Neighbours attacking and killing neighbours, ordinary respectable citizens usurping another's wealth are now extrimists - well may be I don't know after all.


Perhaps you should study India's communal tensions some more, you obviously have plenty of contemporary events to analyze, rather than going all the way back to the hazy days of 1947.



> That actually completely negats the validity of your argument.


Not at all, since the only thing your comment earlier pointed out was that certain parties hold a particular view, for whatever reason on the issue. It does not negate the validity of a plebiscite as a means of resolving the dispute, nor my earlier argument.


> ML and Congress definitely had their followers. But, once again, the decision to partition India was never made to go through the rigors of public opinion.


It went through the public opinion of the people of the Muslim majority States/provinces through electoral process, referendums and Jirgas - good enough for then.

Technically every State that ended up forming the contemporary nation of India did not get to 'go through the rigors of public opinion' on whether they wished to be made part of a single 'Indian Union' either.


----------



## CaptainJackSparrow

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No it does not, this argument has been shown wrong dozens of times on this forum. Read the text of the Shimla Agreement and show me where it supercedes the 1947 UN resolutions, and if it does so, then why are the IWT and Sir Creek disputes still handled through international mediation?




Here's the text of the Simla agreement:




> The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan are resolved that the two countries put an end to the conflict and confrontation that have hitherto marred their relations and work for the promotion of a friendly and harmonious relationship and the establishment of durable peace in the subcontinent so that both countries may henceforth devote their resources and energies to the pressing task of advancing the welfare of their people.
> 
> In order to achieve this objective, the Government of India and the Government of Pakistan have agreed as follows:
> 
> (i) That the principles and purposes of the Charter of the United Nations shall govern the relations between the two countries.
> 
> (ii) *That the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations or by any other peaceful means mutually agreed upon between them.* Pending the final settlement of any of the problems between the two countries, neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation and both shall prevent the organisation, assistance or encouragement of any acts detrimental to the maintenance of peace and harmonious relations.
> 
> (iii) That the prerequisite for reconciliation, good neighbourliness and durable peace between them is a commitment by both the countries to peaceful coexistence respect for each other's territorial integrity and sovereignty and noninterference in each other's internal affairs, on the basis of equality and mutual benefit.
> 
> (iv) That the basic issues and causes of conflict which have bedeviled the relations between the two countries for the last 25 years shall be resolved by peaceful means.
> 
> (v) That they shall always respect each other's national unity, territorial integrity, political independence and sovereign equality.
> 
> (vi) That in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, they will refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of each other.
> 
> Both governments will take all steps within their power to prevent hostile propaganda directed against each other. Both countries will encourage the dissemination of such information as would promote the development of friendly relations between them.
> 
> In order progressively to restore and normalise relations between the two countries step by step, it was agreed that:
> 
> (i) Steps shall be taken to resume communications, postal, telegraphic, sea, land, including border posts, and air links, including over flights.
> 
> (ii) Appropriate steps shall be taken to promote travel facilities for the nationals of the other country.
> 
> (iii) Trade and cooperation in economic and other agreed fields will be resumed as far as possible.
> 
> (iv) Exchange in the fields of science and culture will be promoted.
> 
> In this connection delegations from the two countries will meet from time to time to work out the necessary details.
> 
> In order to initiate the process of the establishment of durable peace, both the governments agree that:
> 
> (i) Indian and Pakistani forces shall be withdrawn to their side of the international border.
> 
> (ii) In Jammu and Kashmir, the line of control resulting from the ceasefire of December 17, 1971, shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognised position of either side. Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally, irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations. Both sides further undertake to refrain from the threat or the use of force in violation of this line.
> 
> (iii) The withdrawals shall commence upon entry into force of this agreement and shall be completed within a period of 30 days thereof.
> 
> This agreement will be subject to ratification by both countries in accordance with their respective constitutional procedures, and will come into force with effect from the date on which the instruments of ratification are exchanged.
> 
> Both governments agree that their respective heads will meet again at a mutually convenient time in the future and that in the meanwhile the representatives of the two sides will meet to discuss further the modalities and arrangements for the establishment of durable peace and normalisation of relations, including the questions of repatriation of prisoners of war and civilian internees, a final settlement of Jammu and Kashmir and the resumption of diplomatic relations.
> 
> Quaid-e-Awam President Islamic Republic of Pakistan
> 
> Indira Gandhi Prime Minister Republic of India
> 
> Simla, the 2 July 1972.



As per the bolded part, since (as far as Kashmir issue is concerned) India has time and again rejected any third party mediation (be it UN or anyone else), the only mechanism left is bilateral and thereby making the UN resolutions obsolete.

Moreover, even if you contend that the IWT and Sir Creek are being addressed according to third party guarantees, I can say that the 'or' in the bolded part provides for this since this something we can agree upon while kashmir is not.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Which has what to do with my comment?



It has to do with your comment since the most fabled 'Azadi' option is not on the table hence the resolutions are meaningless. 



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> His opinion, which carries no weight other than that of being an opinion - it does not do anything with respect to the UNSC resolutions.



Well if you feel that the opinion of the secretary general of the very organisation whose resolutions you seek to be implemented, doesn't matter, then there's really no point in arguing on this. Your position is untenable, to say the least.




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The Kashmir pundits can be contacted, verified and registered by the UN in order to obtain their vote in the plebiscite, and there remains no evidence, other than anecdotal, that the demographics in G-B have been altered beyond a few hundred families moving in here and there.



a. It's not so easy in case of Kashmiri Pandits. 

b. We cannot take your word at its face value when it comes to G-B.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> A part that was barren and uninhabited when China took over administration. Pakistan's agreement with China on handing over administration does indicate that the status of the territories under Chines control will not be final until the UNSC resolutions are implemented.



Barren or not, doesn't matter.

a. You gave away something which was not yours to give in the first place and hence violated the spirit of the UN agreement.

b. That part is under control of PRC and PRC is unwilling to vacate it as has been shown in the recent border talks between India and China.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Which does not change the fact that India committed to the UN, Pakistan and the Kashmir people repeatedly that it would implement the resolutions and that the people of J&K would determine their status through a plebiscite.



And India changed its stance since the resolutions were and are not bginding and as is common knowledge, anything that is not binding, can be repealed.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That is something only a UN held plebiscite can determine conclusively.



a. As I'm hereby proving to you, the plebiscite is no longer possible.

b. The neutral surveys conducted in Indian Kashmir have demonstrated that people of valley prefer Azadi (something that the UN resolutions do not offer) and the people of Jammu and Ladakh want to stay with India.


----------



## Rafi

It is the right of Kashmiris to decide their own future, and they want independence.


----------



## Gandhi G in da house

---------- Post added at 01:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:40 AM ----------

[/COLOR]


Rafi said:


> your PM nehru effectively internationalised this issue by going to the UN - you don't except the resolutions - but the first prime minister of independent india opened pandora's box - and you can't close it now, because of that *the people of Kashmir feel cheated. *



uh not the people of kashmir but only the Kashmiri sunni muslims.

secondly , the hindus and sikhs of kashmir too feel cheated when they were massacred and thrown out of their own land by kashmiri sunni muslims

No one is an angel here .


----------



## Rafi

The vast majority want freedom, and the indian minister seems to think so also.


----------



## amigo

Rafi said:


> The vast majority want freedom, and the indian minister seems to think so also.



wake up dude, which indian minister has said that, the day any minister says that he will be sitting at home the next moment.


----------



## Kashmiri Nationalist

Tuesday, 07 December 2010 00:59
The killing of three youngsters in a mysterious shootout at Qammerwari has raised questions including that from a parliamentarian. Meanwhile the army issued a statement with unflattering remarks on state government, embarrassing CM Omar Abdullah. *Ilham Hassan* reports.





One the face of it, the shootout that took place at Qamarwari in capital Srinagar in the afternoon of November 29, is just an addition to the hundreds of firing or cross-firing incidents which took place in embattled Jammu and Kashmir during past 22 years. Three local youngsters died in the shootout, promptly identified by the police as attackers belonging to a Jaish-e-Muhammad module. A local policeman, selection grade constable Muhammad Ashraf Shah also died in the brief shootout.

But, there are many factors, which make this shootout extra-ordinary. First, the genuineness of the encounter was challenged by Member of Parliament and veteran ruling National Conference leader Shareefuddin Shariq, who described the killing of youngsters as cold-blooded murder. The encounter was first of its kind in the city, after the lull in public protests, which dominated its lanes and by-lanes for nearly five months since mid-June. The last standoff between militants and security forces was witnessed in Srinagar at Lal Chowk in the first week of January 2010. The Armys now-withdrawn comments, that the shootout took place in demilitarized Srinagar and is a consequence of withdrawal of CRPF bunkers from the city, provided another serious dimension to the Qamarwari shootout.

The shootout took place at busy Qamarwari Chowk at around 12:35 pm on November 29. Police said that three motorcycle borne youth opened fire on a police party. They were chased and subsequently shot down one by one. Inspector General of Police (Kashmir range) Shiv Murari Sahai said that the police had credible input that the militants were planning to sneak into Srinagar city. Police did not allow media persons, especially the photojournalists, to approach the encounter till the bodies were taken away to police control room, said a photojournalist. The identity of the slain youngsters, too, was kept under wraps till late in the night, he said.

Eyewitnesses of the shootout said that there was a single fire followed by bursts of gunfire. Within minutes, there was complete chaos. People ran helter-skelter and shopkeepers ran away without downing their shutters. Traffic immediately came to a grinding halt, a woman said. There was a man wearing a pheran lying in a pool of blood, near a skidded motorcycle. A few yards away, another person was shot dead. The third body was found near Cement Bridge, which opens the area towards Noorbagh pocket of old city.

A deputy superintendent of police, present on the scene said that the motorcycle borne youth opened fire on the policeman deployed in Qammerwari chowk. They took away his service rifle and during this time his (policemans) colleagues opened fire on them.




When a journalist asked Sahai as to why the bodies of three youngsters riding a single bike were found at three different places, he shot back, Do you mean we brought them dead from somewhere before explaining that the militants died in a shootout when they were being chased away. He claimed recovery of two pistols from slain militants.

Locals say that the police have not described the exact sequence of events, which led to the killing of a policeman followed by motorcycle borne youngsters. Who owns the motorbike found from the shootout site, is also not known. Police said they are moving on right track to unravel the details.

Late in the evening, first slain youngster was identified as Peerzada Arshad Bashir, a resident of Alsafa Colony in Sopore. Police had recovered identity card and some academic testimonials from his possession that led them to reach his father. Incidentally, Peerzada was a relative of NC parliamentarian Shareefuddin Shariq, who quickly reacted to his death in the shootout.

This is a cold-blooded murder. The three youngsters have been killed in a fake encounter. I will take up the matter with Home Minister P Chidambaram and Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, Shariq was quoted as saying. He also sought punishment for the policemen who were involved in the killings. His demand almost coincided with Director General of Police Kuldeep Khodas announcement that the each policeman in the party would be given out-of-turn rank-up promotion besides a collective cash prize of Rs 5 lacs.

Shariqs comments shook up the police top brass. The DGP immediately flew in from Jammu for damage control. On June 30 afternoon, he addressed a press conference at police control room flanked by IG Sahai and SSP Srinagar Ashiq Bukhari. He described Shariqs comments as imaginary. We cannot control imaginary thoughts or views of anybody. All of you know that our brave boy has died in the encounter. The encounter took place in broad daylight in full public view, he said.

Khoda claimed that the three slain youngsters were militants belonging to a Jaish-e-Muhammad module operating under Waseem Raja Guru, a resident of Seer Jagir in Sopore. The module was also involved in the killing of two CRPF men on November 10 this year at Pattan, Khoda said. The DGP said that two revolvers and some hand grenades were recovered from the possession of killed militants.

Waseem Raja Guru had gone for training across the border in 1991 and returned in 1994. He was working as Battalion Commander of JeM outfit in Sopore. He was booked under the Public Safety Act in 2007 and was released in 2008. He, however, recycled, and remained active since 2008. He was categorized as A category JeM militant in 2009, Khoda said.

About Zahoor Ahmad Hajam of Bandipora, Khoda said the militant was aged about 30 and was a local trained militant affiliated with Al-Badar outfit in the code name of Tanveer and Imran.

He was arrested on August 23, 2004 by the troops of 15 Rashtriya Rifles at Bandipora. On the instance of the militant another militant Hilal Ahmad Shah of Hospital Road Bandipora was also apprehended. A case against FIR No 170/2004 U/S 7/25 was registered against the duo, Khoda said.

The militant was detained under PSA for about one and a half year in 2004. After graduation from a private college, he did his B.Ed from Mehboob-ul-Alam College Bandipora in 2008-09. The militant was also working as a teacher in a private school at Bandipora and had left his job some two months back. As per the family sources he left his home on 19 November 2010 and has not returned. He was involved in instigating 2008 agitation, he elaborated.




About Arshad Bashir, the DGP said that he had passed class XII exams in 2010 and had got admission in Degree College Bemina. He had close links with the militant organisations and his house was raided in 2009 by police and Army for the presence of JeM militants. He had developed a close liaison with JeM militant Waseem Raja Guru in 2008-09 and used to be with him off and on, he claimed.

In an apparent reference to Shariqs remarks, Khoda said, I have given you facts, figures and background. I mentioned this to put at rest any statement coming in any section of media stating otherwise.

The relatives and neighbours of the slain youth squarely refuted police claims. Protest demonstrations were held at Sopore and Bandipora to protest against the killings. Relatives of Arshad Bashir said that he had left his home, just a day before to get roll number slip for examination. He was a brilliant student studying at Bemina Degree College. He never indulged in stone-pelting and was busy either in studies or domestic chores, said his father Bashir Ahmad. Police pressurized the family to bury his body before the crack of dawn and disallowed them to inter him at their ancestral graveyard at Poutkhah.
Bandiporas Zahoor Ahmad Hajam, according to his friends and relatives, was preparing for civil services examination. His father Ghulam Qadir swore by his innocence and maintained that he was on way to Kashmir University to register himself for access to books required for preparation to competitive examinations.

His former employer at a prominent private school swore by his honesty, dedication and straightforwardness. The only family, which did not explicitly reject police version, was the family of Waseem Raja Guru, whom DGP described as the leader of the JeM module. Gurus father Abdur Rashid corroborated DGPs statement about him. He said that he has seen his son last time in 2008 when he was released from Kuthua jail after serving a jail term for his involvement with Jaish outfit. After release, he left home and never returned. I dont know why he became a militant, he said.

The separatists took a cue from Shariqs statement to whip up the police and state government for staging fake encounter. Jamat-e-Islami lauded Shariq for his plain speak and advised him to stick to his guns. Mirwaiz Umar Farooq described the encounter as fake and said it was aimed to terrorize people. He also likened it with governments plans to link stone-pelting phenomenon with militancy. Syed Ali Geelani demanded impartial probe into the shootout to find out truth.

Even mainstream politicians like MLA Engineer Rasheed demanded impartial probe into the Qamarwari incident.

The shootout saga took another interesting turn when the Udhampur based Northern Command released a statement analyzing the Qamarwari encounter. After lauding police for eliminating three militants, army said that the encounter took place in demilitarized Srinagar. The statement took a dig on Omar Abdullah led state government saying it had given in to the clamour of demilitarization and dismantling of bunkers in Srinagar, which had delighted the separatists. Terrorists have shown their presence for the second time in a month, the statement said.




Even as the statement was withdrawn by the army late in the night, it found place in many newspapers much to the embarrassment of the chief minister.

Omar Abdullah, who heads the Unified Command Headquarters, which took decision to remove some bunkers from Srinagar city following 8-point package announced by the Home Minister P Chidambaram was taken aback by the Armys comments. He shot a letter to Prime Minister who in turn pulled up northern commander Lt Gen BS Jaiswal. Jaiswal tendered apology to the CM.

In a written statement, PRO (Northern Command) Lt Col Pradeep Kocchar said, Lt Gen BS Jaswal apologised to the chief minister of Jammu & Kashmir on this issue on Wednesday to resolve the issue. The chief minister and the army commander share extremely cordial relations and have the best of functional rapport. The entire episode is deeply regretted. The state government and army are maintaining best of relations and would continue to do so, the statement added.

Jaswal also clarified to Abdullah that the army statement had been issued by command PRO on Tuesday without authorisation, a day after the Srinagar shootout, in which three alleged militants were killed.

The views expressed were personal predilections of a junior officer, which were inadvertently issued as a press release. The contents were neither cleared by Headquarters Northern Command or by Directorate of Public Relations, Ministry of Defence, South Block, New Delhi, nor does the army subscribe to the views expressed, Kocchar stated.

Analysts say that Armys statement was indicative of growing wedge between political establishment and the armed forces, a phenomenon which was not overtly prevalent in India.


----------



## Rafi

amigo said:


> wake up dude, which indian minister has said that, the day any minister says that he will be sitting at home the next moment.



*Congress minister stokes row, give "Azadi" to Kashmir*
PTI, Dec 6, 2010, 08.00pm IST

JAMMU: *A Jammu and Kashmir minister belonging to Congress has stoked a controversy by suggesting that Kashmir be granted "Azadi"*, remarks that embarassed his party which termed them as his personal view. 

Addressing a rally at Bani in Kathua district on Sunday, *Congress Minister for Health and Horticulture Sham Lal Sharma* had raised the demand for making Jammu a separate state, giving union territory status to Ladakh and granting "Azadi" to Kashmir. 

*"Give freedom to Kashmir, that's more beneficial. Give separate statehood status to Jammu and make Ladakh a union territory. If this state has to be developed, this is the only solution", Sharma said in the presence of PCC chief Saifuddin Soz. *

His remarks drew a sharp attack from state BJP which alleged they "tantamount to treason" and demanded his dismissal from the government and arrest. 

In damage-control mode, Congress spokesman Abhishek Singhvi described Sharma's remarks as his "personal view" and said the party's stand "is very clear--autonomy within the framework of the Indian Constitution". 

The remarks by Sham Lal Sharma had made Soz and his senior party leaders uneasy at the rally. In fact, Soz had tried to initiate damage control and expressed his party's resolve to keep all the three regions of the state united to ensure equal and balanced development in all the regions. 

"We are all answerable to AICC President Sonia Gandhi and what we say here be considered as the Congress word and we must speak along the party's line", Soz said. 

Seeking to downplay Sharma's view, Singhvi told reporters in Delhi that "I can only describe it as a personal opinion (of Sharma). He was having a discussion at rally in his own home state and certainly this is his personal view". 

"Some of the words which I have heard, I can either describe it as a metaphorical speak and should not be taken literally", he said adding "in any case, we do not accept any such allegations". 

BJP National Executive Member and former Pradesh President Nirmal Singh told reporters here that "Sharma has taken oath under the Constitution and his statement tantamounts to treason and therefore an FIR should be registered against him and he should be arrested forthwith". 

After making such a statement Sharma has no locus standi to be in the ministry and he should be dismissed Singh said.

Congress minister stokes row, give "Azadi" to Kashmir - The Times of India

There's your minister lad


----------



## S_O_C_O_M

*Geelani: I will not betray my nation and religion​*
Tuesday, 07 December 2010 14:28 






Srinagar, December 07, 2010: Syed Ali Shah Geelani, the Chairman of All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC), termed Farooq Abdullah, the Indian puppet Chief Minister of Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK), as the "National Criminals of Kashmir.

He was responding to the statement given by Farooq Abdullah, criticising Syed Ali Shah Geelani that he want to see Kashmir as graveyard of Kashmiri people.

APHC Chairman, Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that Farooq Abdullah and his company betrayed the Kashmiri people at every critical juncture and played into Indian hands rather working for the noble cause of liberation of Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK) from Indian occupation.

"Farooq Abdullah, the sycophant without conscience, has no standing to merit any attention, but it has become inevitable to set the records straight, Syed Ali Shah Geelani said in response to Farooq Abdullah. Hadnt NC and Shaikh Family betrayed the nation, hadnt they turned Muslim Conference into National Conference in 1938 or ratified the accession in 47, the situation would have been different today and we wouldnt have to receive the bullet riddled bodies of our beloved ones. The Kashmir issue is the consequence of the deceit politics of the Shaikh Family and NC, he said.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani had also termed the NC rule over OSJK between 1947 to 1953 as "painful chapter in the history of Kashmir". "Those who would talk about Azadi those days were tortured and sent into exile and even people who would listen to Radio Pakistan were subjected to cruelties." Syed Ali Shah Geelani remembers the NC rule during that period.

"They have never been well wishers of Kashmiris. Had they been sincere, they wouldnt have assumed chair in 1975 which they got in charity after burying the demand of plebiscite." Geelani accused Farooq Abdullah and his party, National Conference, for betraying the Kashmiri people.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani accused Farooq Abdullah, saying that he "stabbed the Kashmiris from the back". Crawling the history pages, Syed Ali Geelani refreshes the memory by saying, "After sacrifices of thousands of people, he (Farooq Abdullah) participated in the 1996 elections and created the STF, group of killers, which indulged in brutal killings of Kashmiris. Again in 2008, when thousands of people were on streets, NC joined the election bandwagon, damaging the cause for which Kashmiris have laid sacrifices"

Responding to the statement of Farooq Abdullah that Kashmiri freedom fighters should talk to India, Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that there is no need to talk with India until India stop calling OSJK as its "integral part" theory and (honestly) accepts that Kashmir is an international dispute. Which needs to be resolved according to the wishes of the people of Kashmir (Self-Determination).

Syed Ali Shah Geelani termed India's rule in Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSKJ) as "Indian military occupation" and said, "I consider the military occupation of Kashmir by India as unlawful and I would continue to oppose it till my last breath. I wouldnt betray my nation and religion like Farooq Abdullah and his family."

Geelani: I will not betray my nation and religion


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## Bang Galore

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Srinagar, December 07, 2010: *Syed Ali Shah Geelani, the Chairman of All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC), termed Farooq Abdullah, the Indian puppet Chief Minister of Occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir (OSJK), as the "National Criminals of Kashmir*.



Pathetic reporting! Farooq Abdullah is a union Minister, Omar Abdullah is the Chief Minister.

As for the part about never betraying his nation, to each his own! He does not want to betray his & we won't betray ours.


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## Jade

Is Farooq Abdullah the chief minister of J& K? I did not know this&#8230;.Geelani should remember that almost 50&#37; of the people of J&K are of other faiths. By only talking of his own religion, he is causing damage to his own so called cause.

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## Joe Shearer

Rig Vedic said:


> The RSS is basically demonized because it does not have the same vicious hatred for the Indic civilization that is displayed by the Congress and the Left.
> 
> But they are pretty much like boy-scouts. One has to be seriously deluded to call them terrorists.
> 
> As regards the Mirwaiz incident - let's not have double standards. When Taslima Nasrin was violently attacked by secularist hoodlums in Hyderabad, the Congress government cowered and cancelled her visa, in deference to the violent secularists.



They may be demonised for this, that and the other, by any group that you care to name, including the Congress and the Left. But that still doesn't give them the right to break the law. 

You assert that the Congress, and the Left have a 'vicious' hatred for Indic civilisation. What and where did this come out? What are you referring to, except to the RSS' own self-pitying analysis? And since when did Boy Scouts go around killing people of a different religion?

It might be educative to refer to my detailed response to the ubiquitous, perpetually frenzied Kartic Sri, and my statement that disliking the practised and rehearsed mob-violence of the RSS did not mean support for the Congress or the Left. Which part of that statement did you not understand?

You talk of the Taslima Nasreen incident, and the Congress government cowering and cancelling her visa. Where did you pick up the information that this cowardly behaviour was supported by anyone not supporting the Sangh? What, in short, do the two things have to do with each other?

Finally, when did the MIM become secularist? They are flagrantly communal, down to adopting the name of the faction behind the Razakars in Hyderabad, prior to the police action, and everyone knows they are communal, not secularist. Or is that your way of defaming secularism, by calling a known communal faction secular?

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## Abhishek_

S_O_C_O_M said:


> I would continue to oppose it till my last breath.



given your age we don't mind waiting it out.


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## Joe Shearer

Karthic Sri said:


> Thanks for giving this example.
> 
> If the terrorists at Munich would have escaped unpunished and if they were to give lectures after 20 years about compassion and religious tolerance and the world was to listen to it --- then I, as the judge of Ajmal Kasab,would have no other way other than to pardon him on the ground he may become a saint later in his life.
> 
> I hope you can relate the above example to our modern day Munich terrorists (Congress,the doyen of India's secularism) and Kasab (Sangh).



Pretty sad logic, if you don't mind my saying so.

The terrorists at Munich did not escape punished; neither has Kasab. 

Bringing the Congress into this is ridiculous; nobody, except their fellow criminals, thinks that they are not wrong, or that they should go unpunished. As I have already explained, criticising the crimes of the Sangh does not mean that the critic is authomatically a supporter of Congress or the Left! We were talking about the Sangh; talking about somebody else's crime does not justify their's. 

As for the judge, he does not look at other trials and other judges, but at his trial and his judgement of the criminal arraigned before him. 

This is basic law; a law court is not a kindergarten class where a child can argue that he should be let off because some other teacher in some other class did that.



Karthic Sri said:


> And this is my argument.
> 
> Two wrongs dont make a right --- but what if one of them is *NOT *considered a wrong and only the other is accused of wrong ?
> 
> Its not you, who I am complaining of exhibiting double standards --- its the general media,the supposedly educated elite who have fallen for this and I am complaining about them and I expect you to acknowledge that such a mis-conception is prevalent in our society.
> And since this is the recurring theme in my post ,I ll save you further trouble of reading and basically the format you ve quoted is also a bit tough on my eyes.
> 
> And again I have no were condoned Sangh's violent activities *if any.* Punish them by all means but dont punish them alone ---- they are just one side of the coin.Take a look at the other side also.
> 
> But if people were to support the other side blindly because of religion then , I have to take the Sangh's side and I have no qualms in it.
> 
> My point is simple --- Treat all criminals as one. If you dont then I dont consider the Sangh as a criminal.
> 
> i dont think I have contradicted myself anywhere.



Nobody has suggested that the RSS should stand trial alone. All criminals, of all political hues, should be tried. That's been said again and again before this.



IndianOptimist said:


> Sorry Karthik, are you suggesting, that just because we could not punish somebody in the past, we will continue to do so for other criminals (even in future).
> 
> As an ordianary Indian citizen, who does not have connection with congress/sangh/left, I would want all criminals to be brought to book.
> 
> This thread was particularly about sangh, hence please provide merit in sangh's agenda.



Precisely.


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## WAR-rior

twoplustwoisfour said:


> OK, this is getting ridiculous. Lets get one thing straight. Most people from IITs/IIMs DON'T HAVE A POLITICAL OPINION. They are not politically active, and don't care for whatever party that comes to power. Most of them don't have the time to worry about such issues. All they care about is their CVs and Jobs.
> 
> How do I know? I graduated from IIM Lucknow, class of 2009.
> 
> You want to see people who actively participate in politics, go to Delhi University, go to JNU etc and you'll find discussions on politics. In IITs/IIMs, all the discussion is focused on Theraja & Theraja, Kotler or ****. Seriously.



And that my friend calls for an applause......  

i can nothing but agree to it.....its just ppl are getting more and more involved in politics...not directly but definately indirectly.....

or i shud say in social aspect....and i feel beggining of politics starts with sociology !

- Student IIMK 2012 batch !


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## WAR-rior

faisaljaffery said:


> Who said *Mirwise* to go and adress the hindu pandits its just like Ringing a been in front of a buffalow



This makes him Mir-unwise !

waise u can say the actual proverb...

BHAIS KE AAGE BEEN BAJAAI, BHAINS PADI PAGURAI !


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## WAR-rior

back to the topic....

CAN ANY PAKISTANI PLZ EXPLAIN WHATS THE DEFINATION OF TERRORIST ?

I mean has RSS or Shiv sena or VHP ever had link in any havoc inside Pakistan ?

I mean do they ever found funding any bomb blast in pakistan....i wud love to see any link in that regard...any pakistani blog will also do!

but i feel that making this whole factor of Indian Terrorist is just to create a defence against the accusation put on pakistan for supporting those groups which either fund or are directly involved in terrorism in india....

No...i really mean it.......plz define Terrorism and plz give a rational and logical answer !

Thanks !


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## Pagla Dashu

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The resolutions do not stand nullified, they only stand unimplemented since India refuses to do so, despite committing to them earlier.
> 
> The only thing that language of Simla does is state the obvious, that any resolution of a dispute will have to be 'mutually agreed upon between them' - that potentially includes the UNSC resolutions at a future date, they are not nullified.
> 
> Exactly, and both parties can 'mutually agree between them' to implement the UNSC resolutions in some form as well, either as they stand currently, or with some changes/amendments.
> 
> Nothing in Simla nullifies the UNSC resolutions, it only emphasizes the obvious that any dispute resolution mechanism should be 'mutually agreed between the two countries'.



The sentence you are responding to has a qualifier - '_effectively_'. Simla Agreement provides a legal basis to supersede UN resolutions therefore nullifying its operability, _effectively_, making these resolutions null. 

Leaving aside the legal aspect of Simla Agreement, the UNSC resolutions can no longer be implemented today, forget the future, because the context and circumstances, which were the basis for the resolutions, have changed significantly. The resolutions are grossly inadequate to handle the current situation, unless, as you have indicated, 'some changes/amendments' are made to those or a completely new set of resolutions are drawn up. Neither, unfortunately, is possible.

As an aside, IWT and Sir Creek agreements create a legal obligation of sorts to 'mutually agree' to its contents. In other words, the parties had 'mutually agreed' at an earlier time, to 'mutually agree' to adhere to the agreements. UNSC resolutions do not create any legal obligation. Moreover, many resolutions weren't even 'mutually agreed' between the two parties. To consider the UNSC resolutions as having an equal legal standing with IWT and/or Sir Creek, is bad argument.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Asim Aquil said:


> Amazing now echoes of Azaadi are being sounded in the Indian government. Shor Macha, Awaz utha, Kadam barha! It is significant that a senior Indian minister has come to his senses and is discussing terms of granting Azaadi to KAshmir.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:01 PM ----------
> 
> On another note, I hope he too doesn't get slammed with sedition charges as its India's favorite charge these days.




I think the lovely weather in Dubai is making you ask for too much!

Somehow i have no doubt in my mind that Shiv Sena and RSS chest-thumpers will issue some not so very kind statements (threats), BJP will throw huge tantrum, and some conveniently timed corruption cases will be opened up against him

that, apart from the inevitable sedition charges themself. 


indeed a brave admission by the minister, who has obviously come to grips with the ground realities in the occupied region

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## Pagla Dashu

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Perhaps you should study India's communal tensions some more, you obviously have plenty of contemporary events to analyze, rather than going all the way back to the hazy days of 1947.


The going back to the 'hazy days of 1947' was necessitated by your attempt to deny history.



> Not at all, since the only thing your comment earlier pointed out was that certain parties hold a particular view, for whatever reason on the issue. It does not negate the validity of a plebiscite as a means of resolving the dispute, nor my earlier argument.


That, all those who had agreed to the mechanism of plebiscite as a means of resolving the dispute, no longer holds the same view, is _illustrative_ of the invalidity of the mechanism in current context.



> It went through the public opinion of the people of the Muslim majority States/provinces through electoral process, referendums and Jirgas - good enough for then.
> 
> Technically every State that ended up forming the contemporary nation of India did not get to 'go through the rigors of public opinion' on whether they wished to be made part of a single 'Indian Union' either.


Once again, the _decision_ to partition India was that of ML, Congress, their groupies, all claiming to represent people's opinion, and of the British. There was never a referendum to verify and validate that decision, as was done in Canada in 1995.

Asking some people to chose between the two dominions, after the decision to create the dominions had already been made, is entirely different from asking them if at all there shall be two dominions to choose between.


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## Rig Vedic

Joe Shearer said:


> You assert that the Congress, and the Left have a 'vicious' hatred for Indic civilisation. What and where did this come out?



That hatred clearly comes out in the poisonous distortions of history that are fed to innocent minds through official textbooks. A detailed analysis by Meenakshi Jain is available at:

http://voiceofdharma.org/indology/SatishChandra-flawed_history.doc



> What are you referring to, except to the RSS' own self-pitying analysis? And since when did Boy Scouts go around killing people of a different religion?



Boy scouts don't, and neither does the RSS.



> It might be educative to refer to my detailed response to the ubiquitous, perpetually frenzied Kartic Sri, and my statement that disliking the practised and rehearsed mob-violence of the RSS did not mean support for the Congress or the Left. Which part of that statement did you not understand?
> 
> You talk of the Taslima Nasreen incident, and the Congress government cowering and cancelling her visa. Where did you pick up the information that this cowardly behaviour was supported by anyone not supporting the Sangh? What, in short, do the two things have to do with each other?
> 
> Finally, when did the MIM become secularist? They are flagrantly communal, down to adopting the name of the faction behind the Razakars in Hyderabad, prior to the police action, and everyone knows they are communal, not secularist. Or is that your way of defaming secularism, by calling a known communal faction secular?



I'm sure the MIM piously proclaim themselves to be secular. I don't recall anybody from the Congress or Left disputing that assertion. I am just calling them by the label that most of the political parties seem to accept.


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## Fasih Khan

Farooq Abdullah is a bloody traitor to Kashmiris. He shell Insha' Allah meet his fate sooner then expected. Ameen.


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## Fasih Khan

*God Bless Geelani Sahab. The Truest Leader of Jammu & Kashmir. Salute Sir.*


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## WAR-rior

God Bless Faarookh Abdullah Sahab. The Truest Leader of Jammu & Kashmir. Salute Sir.


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## twoplustwoisfour

Fasih Khan said:


> Farooq Abdullah is a bloody traitor to Kashmiris. He shell Insha' Allah meet his fate sooner then expected. Ameen.



Why do we have such idiotic chest thumping in every thread? You do know that anyone can make such statements. 

Syed Ali Shah Geelani is a bloody traitor to Kashmiris. He shall Insha' Allah meet his fate sooner then expected. Ameen.

There you go.


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## Hindustani



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## Fasih Khan

Occupier can not be the Judge. You and your croonies are destined to be humiliated Soon Insha' Allah.


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## twoplustwoisfour

Fasih Khan said:


> Occupier can not be the Judge. You and your croonies are destined to be humiliated Soon Insha' Allah.



*Terrorist sympathizer *can not be the Judge. You and your croonies *have been *humiliated *time and again*Insha' Allah.

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## GUNS-N- ROSES

Fasih Khan said:


> Farooq Abdullah is a bloody traitor to Kashmiris. He shell Insha' Allah meet his fate sooner then expected. Ameen.



well u r thoughts abt fellow human being shows u r level of maturity.


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## Hindustani

Let the man with the alzheimer's disease say whatever he wants till he remembers that not all Kashmiris want azad


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## Hindustani

Let the man with the alzheimer's disease say whatever he wants till he remembers that not all Kashmiris want azadi

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## Fasih Khan

twoplustwoisfour said:


> *Terrorist sympathizer *can not be the Judge. You and your croonies *have been *humiliated *time and again*Insha' Allah.



I'm not damn India's Sympathizer, That's you.


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## fast and furious

Fasih Khan said:


> I'm not damn India's Sympathizer, That's you.



India does not have sympathizer, it has partners and friends.

Sympathizers give financial aid and you know who goes around asking for donations and financial aid among the two of us.


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## cybertron

@fasih khah
huh...look at your comment
no wonder y thier is so much jihad going on in pakistan , if civilized english speaking people are like this then god save the rest in ur country
ur answer to any problem is jihad
well continue with motto

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## twoplustwoisfour

Fasih Khan said:


> I'm not damn India's Sympathizer, That's you.




I love how easy it is to rile up the likes of you. Here's my latest salvo:

India is protecting the innocent Kashmiris against fundamentalists and armed fanatics from across the border.

Let the bitchin' commence.


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## cybertron

geelani is a great man
he will never betry his nation and its fellow jihadists
if he wants he can go back to his nation that is pakistan.
we indians would be glad to get u a bailgadi for that.

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## Trichy

i heard the Health Minister of J&K, take a complete U-Turn on her speech regards the "Azadi"..

I personaly think that he spoke about the AK & GB, not J&K...


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## Trichy

i heard the Health Minister of J&K, take a complete U-Turn on her speech regards the "Azadi"..

I personaly think that he spoke about the AK & GB, not J&K...


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## Valiant_Soul

Rafi said:


> My friend all the tyranny cannot hold a man in chains forever, the brits used to laugh at Gandhi, saying how a half naked fakir would kick them out. The Kashmiri people have decided that they wish to be free. This poem represents better than what words I could use.



That is your problem. You consider a few thousand Kashmir valley's deluded people as the only population of Kashmir. They do not constitute Kashmiris alone.

Plus, Gandhi fought against Britishers because of the fundamental indifference and superiority complex they had for Indians. In the case of Kashmiris, they are as free as any other Indian under the constitution of India. Hence the cause for azadi itself is evil in nature, based solely on religion, as if other religions are worthless. The very impurity in their cause is the reason they suffer, and will suffer needlessly until they change their mind.


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## scrumpy

People here actually think that the minister supports your point of view? 

What the minister was demanding was aazadi for Jammu and Ladakh from Kashmir. These 2 regions are suffering because of their association with Kashmir. The belief in these regions is that Kashmir gets a disproportionately large amount of resources meant for the entire state.


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## Bharat Muslim

One positive thing about U.S. . .

U.S. cares for every Kashmiri whether secessionist or pro-India.

Pro-India Muslim Kashmiris (PIMKs) have been left in the lurch by insensitive Indian state. PIMKs have risked their security and dignity to honour their commitment to the Indian nation. Kashmir&#8217;s majority may pardon Kashmiri Hindus for their Indian loyalties but will not forgive PIMKs unless they change their stand. On a side note this dedication of PIMKs is very touching. They lived amidst a hostile majority and constantly faced a threat to their life. PIMKs are mainly of three kinds: political workers, renegade militants and some among general public.

Just when things looked bad for them U.S. arrived on the scene. If not for American intervention there was a good chance that these people would have been barred from the valley. Americans gave Omar Abdullah the reassurances and the &#8216;accession-not-merger&#8217; speech. Americans may play a role in the return of Kashmiri Hindu refugee community to the Kashmir valley. U.S. will also ensure fair trial of Afzal Guru and justice to Priyadarshini Mattoo and Aman Kachroo. All of which has been denied by Indian judiciary.

Americans are doing this because they regard Kashmiris as of their own race. But if in future Kashmiris take side of Indians in Indo-American conflicts, they will lose the favour of Americans. Because racist white&#8217;s policy is, &#8220;If you refuse to harm a non-white person you cease to be a white.&#8221;


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## divya

Him being a public servent and we being the public first thing we demand his azadi from his ministergiri. if he cant look for the issue of national imporatance he should be barred from politics for whole life.


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## amigo

he just want to gain popularity, he was no one before this. pity tactics to gain popularity, it would not be a surprise if he turn back on his statement.


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## zip

self delete


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## sensenreason

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I think the lovely weather in Dubai is making you ask for too much!
> 
> Somehow i have no doubt in my mind that Shiv Sena and RSS chest-thumpers will issue some not so very kind statements (threats), BJP will throw huge tantrum, and some conveniently timed corruption cases will be opened up against him
> 
> that, apart from the inevitable sedition charges themself.
> 
> indeed a brave admission by the minister, who has obviously come to grips with the ground realities in the occupied region



Hmm...If India gets Aksai Chin and ofcourse Ladakh and Jammu..I dont see who will have any problems with the solution proposed by the minister.


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## Joe Shearer

Joe Shearer said:


> You assert that the Congress, and the Left have a 'vicious' hatred for Indic civilisation. What and where did this come out?
> 
> 
> 
> Rig Vedic said:
> 
> 
> 
> That hatred clearly comes out in the poisonous distortions of history that are fed to innocent minds through official textbooks. A detailed analysis by Meenakshi Jain is available at:
> 
> http://voiceofdharma.org/indology/Sa...ed_history.doc
Click to expand...


Have you read it yourself? Just a few observations, not a detailed analysis, since it is nothing but a piece of toilet paper:

1. There are no _poisonous distortions of history_ listed in the entire note, not one, only Meenakshi Jain's complaint that she would have ordered the material in a different order. Putting the correct facts in different sequences does not amount to distortion; it amounts to bad writing, at worst; given what I have read of Satish Chandra and what I have read of Meenakshi Jain, I would prefer to read Satish Chandra to reading Meenakshi Jain; this is an academic view of the language that they each write, not a political view, since I happen to disagree with both of them and their political views;

2. The note is focussed totally on Late Mediaeval Indian History; to call a spade a spade, she concentrates only on the so-called *Muslim period*; there is no complaint from her about anything from the Ancient or the Early Mediaeval Indian historical periods, not in the first 25% of her note; to get a _poisonous aversion to Indic civilisation _from this requires an imagination of considerable horse-power;

3. Regarding her preliminary remarks, I found 12 questionable or downright incorrect comments, or propaganda-oriented remarks; if you wish, my full annotation of her note can be forwarded to you at a suitable e-mail address;

4. She herself was the Goebbels who was hired to distort history by the RSS lackey Murali Manohar Joshi, when he demanded, and was given the Ministry of Education, later called the Ministry of Human Resources. You are of course aware of the scandals that surrounded the administration during his tenure, including his attempts to get control of colleges, universities and the institutes of technology through the naked exercise of power by the UGC;

5. All in all, these do not even approach the liberties taken by the RSS school textbooks, which have been running in RSS schools long before Joshi attempted to hijack the Education Ministry.

6. Finally, we Indians are famous for being the least history minded people in the whole world. This note is characteristic. It is undated, to start with; someone unwary reading it may even believe that it reflects current states of the institutions and the text-books. There is no indication that her fabrications were thrown out neck and crop once the Sangh Parivar were torn away from the ministry; it appears almost as if she is discussing a major area of backwardness and outdated work which has to be set right, instead of being, at this moment, an account of what she set out to do, along with her fellow fascists, and what was subsequently thrown out.

Nothing could be more illustrative of the deliberately mischief-making approach of these schemers than the orientation and setting of the note itself.



Joe Shearer said:


> What are you referring to, except to the RSS' own self-pitying analysis? And since when did Boy Scouts go around killing people of a different religion?
> 
> 
> Rig Veda said:
> 
> 
> 
> Boy scouts don't, and neither does the RSS.
Click to expand...


The RSS was responsible for:

1. The violent and illegal destruction of the Babri Masjid;
2. The loss of numerous lives in the strife that followed;
3. The planned killing of nearly 1000 Muslims in the BJP-ruled state of Gujarat;
4. The murder of a Christian missionary, Graham Staines, and his two little children;
5. The murder of large numbers of Christian tribals in Orissa;
6. The encouragement and sponsorship of fanatic elements responsible for subordining officers in the Indian Army and for planting explosives on the Samjhauta Express, causing more loss of innocent lives;
7. The killings and murders between north Kerala and south Konkan, and the regular outbreaks of communal trouble in north Kerala;
8. The attempted suppression of civil liberties and harrassment of private individuals by the Ram Sene in Karnataka, through their role in fostering the founder of the Ram Sene, Prakash Mutalik.

This is just a short list. There are too many violent incidents, all reflecting the deepest discredit on these mindless morons, to list in full. Nor do I wish to go into further detail on a foreign, defence web-site.



Joe Shearer said:


> It might be educative to refer to my detailed response to the ubiquitous, perpetually frenzied Kartic Sri, and my statement that disliking the practised and rehearsed mob-violence of the RSS did not mean support for the Congress or the Left. Which part of that statement did you not understand?
> 
> You talk of the Taslima Nasreen incident, and the Congress government cowering and cancelling her visa. Where did you pick up the information that this cowardly behaviour was supported by anyone not supporting the Sangh? What, in short, do the two things have to do with each other?
> 
> Finally, when did the MIM become secularist? They are flagrantly communal, down to adopting the name of the faction behind the Razakars in Hyderabad, prior to the police action, and everyone knows they are communal, not secularist. Or is that your way of defaming secularism, by calling a known communal faction secular?
> 
> 
> 
> Rig Vedic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure the MIM piously proclaim themselves to be secular. I don't recall anybody from the Congress or Left disputing that assertion. I am just calling them by the label that most of the political parties seem to accept.
Click to expand...


Superb logic, superb arguments. You sound like a fanboy telling me that India lost every war that she fought, for a variety of reasons that he can't remember.

1. You don't know whether or not the MIM have ever proclaimed themselves secular; you just assume this and go ahead with the rest of your arguments on the bare possibility that they might have.
2. Not knowing whether or not they themselves have claimed to be secular, you lurch on to the next non-existent piece of logic, like a drunk staggering from one imaginary lamp-post to another. So the next step is to assume that the Congress and the Left haven't disputed their secularism. This is getting better by the minute.
3. Your comment on the Taslima Nasreen incident, and your brilliant rebuke of the 'secularists', is therefore based on the myth that they called themselves secular, and a leap of the imagination that the Congress and the Left have not denied what the MIM have not said, that they are secular.

I can only say that in that case, the Buddhists were responsible for raping and murdering thousands of people in the mediaeval Khwarizm kingdom and of building pyramids of skulls of people from the cities that they conquered, by using the logic that you have used.

a. The Mongols under Chengiz Khan attacked and destroyed the Khwarizm kingdom, and made pyramids of skulls of the cities that they conquered;
b. They never said that they weren't Buddhists, so they might well have been Buddhists;
c. The Muslim kingdoms to their south, including the Khilafat, didn't deny that they were Buddhists, so they obviously thought that they were Buddhist;
d. The Khilafat was responsible for the rape and murders of all these thousands by the Buddhists, since they didn't resist the rape and murders. 

There you are. 

It's easy to write history. Just takes a couple of ganja cigarettes, and an afternoon or two.


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## Rig Vedic

Joe, you have come up with a large number of allegations, which as we shall see, will evaporate under rigorous examination. Consider, for example, your litany against the RSS.



Joe Shearer said:


> The RSS was responsible for:
> 
> 1. The violent and illegal destruction of the Babri Masjid;



Now, you can't demolish a strong building without some planning. Name the individuals that organized the tools for the demolition of the domes, and tell us who climbed the domes to do the demolition. Further, tell us how, and specifically, _when_ the solid, 4-foot thick walls were demolished (which is a separate story from the domes).

Without any specifics one can't just airily claim that "the RSS did it".


----------



## Subramanian

twoplustwoisfour said:


> OK, this is getting ridiculous. Lets get one thing straight. Most people from IITs/IIMs DON'T HAVE A POLITICAL OPINION. They are not politically active, and don't care for whatever party that comes to power. Most of them don't have the time to worry about such issues. All they care about is their CVs and Jobs.
> 
> How do I know? I graduated from IIM Lucknow, class of 2009.
> 
> You want to see people who actively participate in politics, go to Delhi University, go to JNU etc and you'll find discussions on politics. In IITs/IIMs, all the discussion is focused on Theraja & Theraja, Kotler or ****. Seriously.



I repeat again and again,

The idea of mentioning IITs and IIMs was to kill the notion that right wing people need not necessarily be lower middle class or uneducated.

Secondly,I am also from an IIT and an IIM and there are all kinds of people,one who discuss the stuff mentioned or politics or both.

JNU is your washed up dreaming pseudo intellectual complex.It is a pity that all we got is JNU for activism.


----------



## Subramanian

Joe Shearer said:


> They may be demonised for this, that and the other, by any group that you care to name, including the Congress and the Left. But that still doesn't give them the right to break the law.
> 
> You assert that the Congress, and the Left have a 'vicious' hatred for Indic civilisation. What and where did this come out? What are you referring to, except to the RSS' own self-pitying analysis? And since when did Boy Scouts go around killing people of a different religion?
> 
> It might be educative to refer to my detailed response to the ubiquitous, perpetually frenzied Kartic Sri, and my statement that disliking the practised and rehearsed mob-violence of the RSS did not mean support for the Congress or the Left. Which part of that statement did you not understand?
> 
> You talk of the Taslima Nasreen incident, and the Congress government cowering and cancelling her visa. Where did you pick up the information that this cowardly behaviour was supported by anyone not supporting the Sangh? What, in short, do the two things have to do with each other?
> 
> Finally, when did the MIM become secularist? They are flagrantly communal, down to adopting the name of the faction behind the Razakars in Hyderabad, prior to the police action, and everyone knows they are communal, not secularist. Or is that your way of defaming secularism, by calling a known communal faction secular?



I get your point,

Basically none of them are perfect,yeah true.But i would anyday choose the evil of the home rather than the borrowed evil of Congress and the Outdated left.


----------



## Subramanian

Joe Shearer said:


> Have you read it yourself? Just a few observations, not a detailed analysis, since it is nothing but a piece of toilet paper:
> 
> 1. There are no _poisonous distortions of history_ listed in the entire note, not one, only Meenakshi Jain's complaint that she would have ordered the material in a different order. Putting the correct facts in different sequences does not amount to distortion; it amounts to bad writing, at worst; given what I have read of Satish Chandra and what I have read of Meenakshi Jain, I would prefer to read Satish Chandra to reading Meenakshi Jain; this is an academic view of the language that they each write, not a political view, since I happen to disagree with both of them and their political views;
> 
> 2. The note is focussed totally on Late Mediaeval Indian History; to call a spade a spade, she concentrates only on the so-called *Muslim period*; there is no complaint from her about anything from the Ancient or the Early Mediaeval Indian historical periods, not in the first 25% of her note; to get a _poisonous aversion to Indic civilisation _from this requires an imagination of considerable horse-power;
> 
> 3. Regarding her preliminary remarks, I found 12 questionable or downright incorrect comments, or propaganda-oriented remarks; if you wish, my full annotation of her note can be forwarded to you at a suitable e-mail address;
> 
> 4. She herself was the Goebbels who was hired to distort history by the RSS lackey Murali Manohar Joshi, when he demanded, and was given the Ministry of Education, later called the Ministry of Human Resources. You are of course aware of the scandals that surrounded the administration during his tenure, including his attempts to get control of colleges, universities and the institutes of technology through the naked exercise of power by the UGC;
> 
> 5. All in all, these do not even approach the liberties taken by the RSS school textbooks, which have been running in RSS schools long before Joshi attempted to hijack the Education Ministry.
> 
> 6. Finally, we Indians are famous for being the least history minded people in the whole world. This note is characteristic. It is undated, to start with; someone unwary reading it may even believe that it reflects current states of the institutions and the text-books. There is no indication that her fabrications were thrown out neck and crop once the Sangh Parivar were torn away from the ministry; it appears almost as if she is discussing a major area of backwardness and outdated work which has to be set right, instead of being, at this moment, an account of what she set out to do, along with her fellow fascists, and what was subsequently thrown out.
> 
> Nothing could be more illustrative of the deliberately mischief-making approach of these schemers than the orientation and setting of the note itself.
> 
> 
> 
> The RSS was responsible for:
> 
> *1. The violent and illegal destruction of the Babri Masjid;
> 2. The loss of numerous lives in the strife that followed;
> 3. The planned killing of nearly 1000 Muslims in the BJP-ruled state of Gujarat;
> 4. The murder of a Christian missionary, Graham Staines, and his two little children;
> 5. The murder of large numbers of Christian tribals in Orissa;
> 6. The encouragement and sponsorship of fanatic elements responsible for subordining officers in the Indian Army and for planting explosives on the Samjhauta Express, causing more loss of innocent lives;
> 7. The killings and murders between north Kerala and south Konkan, and the regular outbreaks of communal trouble in north Kerala;
> 8. The attempted suppression of civil liberties and harrassment of private individuals by the Ram Sene in Karnataka, through their role in fostering the founder of the Ram Sene, Prakash Mutalik.
> *



Yeah you really do expect utopia to happen soon.

These are nothing compared to what hindus had to undergo for 1000 years under oppressive muslim rulers and 50 years under the congress **** suckers.

And that Ram Sene is not affiliated with the RSS and they r just chutes,creating useless trouble.


----------



## Subramanian

Rig Vedic said:


> Joe, you have come up with a large number of allegations, which as we shall see, will evaporate under rigorous examination. Consider, for example, your litany against the RSS.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, you can't demolish a strong building without some planning. Name the individuals that organized the tools for the demolition of the domes, and tell us who climbed the domes to do the demolition. Further, tell us how, and specifically, _when_ the solid, 4-foot thick walls were demolished (which is a separate story from the domes).
> 
> Without any specifics one can't just airily claim that "the RSS did it".



yeah,yeah they did it and there is nothing wrong with it if you compare this to what hindus had to endure.


----------



## Joe Shearer

Subramanian said:


> I get your point,
> 
> Basically none of them are perfect,yeah true.But i would anyday choose the evil of the home rather than the borrowed evil of Congress and the Outdated left.



You didn't get it at all, did you? You don't have to choose between either evil. Just opt for the rule of law. You don't have to create a new party either. Just make it clear which way your vote will go. And watch Bihar happen.


----------



## Joe Shearer

Subramanian said:


> Yeah you really do expect utopia to happen soon.
> 
> These are nothing compared to what hindus had to undergo for 1000 years under oppressive muslim rulers and 50 years under the congress **** suckers.
> 
> And that Ram Sene is not affiliated with the RSS and they r just chutes,creating useless trouble.



Just go check. Everyone in Hubli and Dharwar knows. Pramod Mutalik was an RSS man for years. 

_Aged 13, he joined the RSS in 1975. In 2004, he become the convenor for South India for the Bajrang Dal. During this time, he helped the BJP in the assembly polls, especially in north Karnataka which soon became the party&#8217;s stronghold.​_

_Stating that he wanted a political platform to advance the objectives of Hindutva, he joined the Shiv Sena on August 28, 2005. He was accompanied by the former district president of the Bajrang Dal for Belgaum, Vilas Pawar, and some 5,000 workers belonging to the Bajrang Dal, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad and the Bharatiya Janata Party. This marked the formation of the Shiv Sena in Karnataka._​

They aren't affiliated. They are simply protected. 

_Pramod Multhalik has over 45 cases pending against him, and is wanted by the police in 11 districts of Karnataka. Most of these cases are still under investigation and relate to subversive activities, defiling religious books, unlawful assembly, violating prohibitory orders, and evading judicial warrants. Most were filed between the years 2000 and 2008. A look at the chargesheet makes it clear that he has never been arrested for any of these cases.​_
People lodged complaints against them and found that they themselves were getting investigated. Just go check the mailing list of Nirbhaya Karntaka; or ask the Alternate Law Forum in Bangalore.



Subramanian said:


> yeah,yeah they did it and there is nothing wrong with it if you compare this to what hindus had to endure.



Do you realise how silly that sounds?

What do you plan to do, oppress all non-Hindus for 1,000 years and oppress all Congressmen and their families for 50 years?

Or make everyone keep to the law and lead lawful lives?

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## Rig Vedic

Joe Shearer said:


> They aren't affiliated. They are simply protected.
> 
> _Pramod Multhalik has over 45 cases pending against him, and is wanted by the police in 11 districts of Karnataka. Most of these cases are still under investigation and relate to subversive activities, defiling religious books, unlawful assembly, violating prohibitory orders, and evading judicial warrants. Most were filed between the years 2000 and 2008. A look at the chargesheet makes it clear that he has never been arrested for any of these cases.​_
> People lodged complaints against them and found that they themselves were getting investigated.



BJP govt in Karnataka is a recent phenomenon ... Mutalik has fought elections against the BJP. Who was protecting him for all these years?


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## KS

Joe Shearer said:


> The RSS was responsible for:
> 
> 1. The violent and illegal destruction of the Babri Masjid;



It would have been prevented if the Muslim organisations could have voluntarily given the land for the construction of a temple considering the relative importance of the structure to each group.



Joe Shearer said:


> 2. The loss of numerous lives in the strife that followed;



Muslim mobs were equally responsible.



Joe Shearer said:


> 3. The planned killing of nearly 1000 Muslims in the BJP-ruled state of Gujarat;





> The government told parliament that 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus were killed, 223 more people reported missing and another 2,500 injured..........Junior Home Minister Sriprakash Jaiswal told the upper house that more than 900 women had been widowed and 600 children orphaned in the riots.



Sorry I dont see anything great in bloating your figures to prove a point.
BBC NEWS | South Asia | Gujarat riot death toll revealed



Joe Shearer said:


> 4. The murder of a Christian missionary, Graham Staines, and his two little children;
> 5. The murder of large numbers of Christian tribals in Orissa;



Both the points have their root cause in one thing - 'Harvesting of the souls by the fanatic evangelists' - Now dont tell that they dont exist.

Also another main trigger was the killing of Swami Lakshmanada Saraswati by these same fanatics.



Joe Shearer said:


> 6. The encouragement and sponsorship of fanatic elements responsible for subordining officers in the Indian Army and for planting explosives on the Samjhauta Express, causing more loss of innocent lives;



Oh Cmon --- it has not been proved that it *was* Lt.Col Purohit who did that. He is been suspected just like LeT and JeM were suspected initially.
Here is what the US Treasury hahs to say about the attack.



> In return for Qasmani's support, al Qaida provided Qasmani with operatives to support the July 2006 train bombing in Mumbai, India, and the February 2007 Samjota Express bombing in Panipat, India. In 2005, Qasmani provided Taliban leaders with a safe haven and a means to smuggle personnel, equipment, and weapons into Afghanistan.



WebCite query result

Since there is so much ambiguity and no Hindu organisation has claimed responsibility like what IM did yest,I prefer to wait for the courts to pronounce their final judgement.



Joe Shearer said:


> 7. The killings and murders between north Kerala and south Konkan, and the regular outbreaks of communal trouble in north Kerala;



Again you are saying as if only the VHP/BD is doing this and all other groups are as white as angels. Both of them are responsible for any disturbance. Accept it. Dont put all the blame on Hindu Right wing orgs.




Joe Shearer said:


> 8. The attempted suppression of civil liberties and harrassment of private individuals by the *Ram Sene* in Karnataka, through their role in fostering the founder of the *Ram Sene,* Prakash Mutalik.



So why blaming it on the RSS ?? RSS did not like his activities and sidelined him.Ultimately he was expelled from BD in 2005.

A fast mover, peddling his brand of Hindutva - Hindustan Times


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## KS

Joe Shearer said:


> Just go check. Everyone in Hubli and Dharwar knows. Pramod Mutalik was an RSS man for years.



I checked and came up with some startling revelations.



Joe Shearer said:


> _Aged 13, he joined the RSS in 1975. In 2004, he become the convenor for South India for the Bajrang Dal. During this time, he helped the BJP in the assembly polls, especially in north Karnataka which soon became the party&#8217;s stronghold. _



The italicised part continues as _The BJP however chose not to defend the various criminal cases against his workers. He was soon sidelined in the Dal for his extreme views, and was later expelled._



Joe Shearer said:


> _Stating that he wanted a political platform to advance the objectives of Hindutva, he joined the Shiv Sena on August 28, 2005. He was accompanied by the former district president of the Bajrang Dal for Belgaum, Vilas Pawar, and some 5,000 workers belonging to the Bajrang Dal, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad and the Bharatiya Janata Party. This marked the formation of the Shiv Sena in Karnataka._



This continues as _Muthalik quit the Sena in 2006 after the party revived its demand for the merger of the Marathi speaking areas like Belgaum with Maharashtra. He then formed the Rashtriya Hindu Sena_

Dont ask me the source,its the same Wiki page on Pramod Muthalik you referred to.



Joe Shearer said:


> They aren't affiliated. They are simply protected.
> 
> _Pramod Multhalik has over 45 cases pending against him, and is wanted by the police in 11 districts of Karnataka. Most of these cases are still under investigation and relate to subversive activities, defiling religious books, unlawful assembly, violating prohibitory orders, and evading judicial warrants. Most were filed between the years 2000 and 2008. A look at the chargesheet makes it clear that he has never been arrested for any of these cases._



Who knows he may have made use of two words - "Anticipatory Bail"

And read this also;



> For, he too thought the Sangh Parivar was going soft on Hindutva. &#8220;This was the reason why he was sidelined in the Parivar and joined the Shiv Sena in 2005" said a key Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) functionary, who did not wish to be named, in Pune.



A fast mover, peddling his brand of Hindutva - Hindustan Times

*There is no point in arguing if you wish to cherry pick and intentionally omit one part of the story to demonise the RSS to further your point.*


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

any more rants??? or can this pointless thread be closed

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## Abu Zolfiqar

> [A wikileaks] cable described Indian Army in gross Human rights violations in Indian Held part of Jammu and Kashmir while some Lt. Gen HS Panag, the then GOC-in-Chief of the Northern Command of the Indian Army was equated with General Milosevic of Bosnia with regard to butchering Muslims through war crimes.
> 
> The cable urged Washington to secretly divert UN attention towards the genocide of innocent civilians in Held Kashmir on the hands of Indian Army and also suggested that US should avoid holding any joint drill with Indian army until it stops inhuman activities in Kashmir.
> 
> The cable termed one Lt. Col. AK Mathur as Devils Advocate at Srinagar. Another cable indicated involvement of top Indian Army leadership in engaging Hindu extremist militants to carry out certain terror operations to keep Indian Muslims on the back foot and to keep pressure on neighbouring Pakistans army and intelligence agencies, particularly the Inter services Intelligence . The cable did confirm the active presence of ISI in India but it refused to confirm any involvement of ISI in any terror incident across India and did confirm intelligence collection by its agents and operatives.



Wikileaks terms Former Indian Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor as a geek | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## Joe Shearer

Joe Shearer said:


> The RSS was responsible for:
> 
> 1. The violent and illegal destruction of the Babri Masjid;
> 
> 
> Kartic Sri said:
> 
> 
> 
> It would have been prevented if the Muslim organisations could have voluntarily given the land for the construction of a temple considering the relative importance of the structure to each group.
Click to expand...


Have you heard of the rapists' defence? "It wouldn't have been rape if she'd just cooperated!" So a matter in the courts becomes something that people take action on arbitrarily, with the aid and abetment of the local provincial government? And you come into a Pakistani forum and tell them that they are no-goodniks who can't do anything about people promoting illegal camps and training terrorists, and collaborating with sympathetic elements in the administration?

Irony obviously isn't your strong point.



Joe Shearer said:


> 2. The loss of numerous lives in the strife that followed;
> 
> 
> Kartic Sri said:
> 
> 
> 
> Muslim mobs were equally responsible.
Click to expand...


That's right. 85% of the population was attacked by the rest. Oh, I forgot to exclude the Christians and the Sikhs, from the rest.

You are beginning to sound like the guys who kill Christian women and children in their homes for blasphemy.



Joe Shearer said:


> 3. The planned killing of nearly 1000 Muslims in the BJP-ruled state of Gujarat;
> 
> 
> Kartic Sri said:
> 
> 
> 
> The government told parliament that 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus were killed, 223 more people reported missing and another 2,500 injured..........Junior Home Minister Sriprakash Jaiswal told the upper house that more than 900 women had been widowed and 600 children orphaned in the riots.
> Sorry I dont see anything great in bloating your figures to prove a point.
> BBC NEWS | South Asia | Gujarat riot death toll revealed
Click to expand...


And this is the same government, the same Congress, you were referring to in your other posts? All of a sudden, they are truthful, reliable and full of integrity. I must introduce you to Captain Jack Sparrow.



Joe Shearer said:


> 4. The murder of a Christian missionary, Graham Staines, and his two little children;
> 5. The murder of large numbers of Christian tribals in Orissa;
> 
> 
> Kartic Sri said:
> 
> 
> 
> Both the points have their root cause in one thing - 'Harvesting of the souls by the fanatic evangelists' - Now dont tell that they dont exist.
> 
> Also another main trigger was the killing of Swami Lakshmanada Saraswati by these same fanatics.
Click to expand...


Yes, they do exist - so what is it that the Parivar likes to do? X does something in place Y; right, let's get the bastard. Let's burn alive A, in place B. And don't forget the kids, they'll grow up to be missionaries too. 

The Maoists have already gone on record having killed Lakshmananda for his anti-people record of preaching hate and dividing people on communal lines. In case you haven't noticed, the Maoists, given their predilection for violence, are not particularly communal. In fact, the contrary; they execute any religious preachers in their territories. Funny how they thought Lakshmananda was a bigot and preacher of hate worth killing, but not Staines.

As far as the riots themselves go, the trouble is that you and other Sangh fanatics and bigots never bother to go into the background, the sociology and the anthropology of the situation. 

I don't want to expose the whole dreadful situation on a foreign web-site. But if you look up the history of the culture of the Konds, who are now called Kandha by Sanskritising elements, and their history of human sacrifice, and the arms' length relationship they had with caste Hindu society, intermediated by the Pans, today called the Panas, a lot of things will fall into place. 

You will find that the majority of the anti-Christian rioters were human-sacrificing, cattle-killing Konds, 'converted' through a programme of 'aggressive missionary' activity by the VHP, and set against their previous intermediating tribe, the Panas, among whom there were many converted Christians. It was converted-Hindu Kond against converted-Christian Pana; apparently, the converted-Christian Konds were affected to a much lesser extent.

If you want, I'll go further. But then don't tell me later that I'd embarrassed you.



Joe Shearer said:


> 6. The encouragement and sponsorship of fanatic elements responsible for subordining officers in the Indian Army and for planting explosives on the Samjhauta Express, causing more loss of innocent lives;
> 
> 
> Kartic Sri said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh Cmon --- it has not been proved that it was Lt.Col Purohit who did that. He is been suspected just like LeT and JeM were suspected initially.
Click to expand...


So now we are equating this traitor to his oath with the LeT and the JeM? Well done!



Kartic Sri said:


> Here is what the US Treasury hahs to say about the attack.
> 
> In return for Qasmani's support, al Qaida provided Qasmani with operatives to support the July 2006 train bombing in Mumbai, India, and the February 2007 Samjota Express bombing in Panipat, India. In 2005, Qasmani provided Taliban leaders with a safe haven and a means to smuggle personnel, equipment, and weapons into Afghanistan.
> WebCite query result
> 
> Since there is so much ambiguity and no Hindu organisation has claimed responsibility like what IM did yest,I prefer to wait for the courts to pronounce their final judgement.



Of course, when the Pakistanis say similar things, we hate it. Then it's a question of deliberate foot-dragging by them, deliberate filing of weak plaints, in order to encourage the judge to throw the case out, it's a question of tacit encouragement by the establishment.

Has it ever occurred to you that there might be a logical reason why Muslim organisations announce what they have done and take responsibility for it, and Hindu organisations in this case didn't?

Muslim organisations in India are on the losing side, both with regard to their stature in the eyes of people in general, in the eyes of the media, and even in the eyes of their own people. This is why they proclaim who they are; their message, that you get as good as you give, so leave us alone. 

Hindu undercover organisations attack their own installations, temples and public property in order to raise sympathy for their cause - the Muslims are out to kill us all. For this to succeed, obviously the operations, the actions must be secret at all times.



Joe Shearer said:


> 7. The killings and murders between north Kerala and south Konkan
> 
> 
> Kartic Sri said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again you are saying as if only the VHP/BD is doing this and all other groups are as white as angels. Both of them are responsible for any disturbance. Accept it. Dont put all the blame on Hindu Right wing orgs.
Click to expand...


I've been visiting those areas from 1981, when I used to work selling steel. I've seen this growing in front of my eyes, first the aggressive Jan Sanghis and their inclination to riot first and think second, then the pack which followed, the front organisations, the VHP and the Bajrang Dal, each darker than the other, then groups to work women, minorities, tribals, professionals - one step at a time, with methodical, sustained work.

I *am* putting the blame on Hindu right-wing organisations, based on the evidence of my own eyes, and my friends' accounts (not Congressmen, not Leftists, before you ask). I was there; were you?



Joe Shearer said:


> 8. The attempted suppression of civil liberties and harrassment of private individuals by the Ram Sene in Karnataka, through their role in fostering the founder of the Ram Sene, Prakash Mutalik.
> 
> 
> Kartic Sri said:
> 
> 
> 
> So why blaming it on the RSS ?? RSS did not like his activities and sidelined him.Ultimately he was expelled from BD in 2005.
> 
> A fast mover, peddling his brand of Hindutva - Hindustan Times
Click to expand...


Because he was systematically protected from any police action against him, using the BJP's take over of the police force, the civil administration body that they address first. That single act in itself should tell you a lot about the Parivar.


----------



## Joe Shearer

Karthic Sri said:


> I checked and came up with some startling revelations.
> 
> 
> 
> The italicised part continues as _The BJP however chose not to defend the various criminal cases against his workers. He was soon sidelined in the Dal for his extreme views, and was later expelled._
> 
> 
> 
> This continues as _Muthalik quit the Sena in 2006 after the party revived its demand for the merger of the Marathi speaking areas like Belgaum with Maharashtra. He then formed the Rashtriya Hindu Sena_
> 
> Dont ask me the source,its the same Wiki page on Pramod Muthalik you referred to.
> 
> 
> 
> Who knows he may have made use of two words - "Anticipatory Bail"
> 
> And read this also;
> 
> 
> 
> A fast mover, peddling his brand of Hindutva - Hindustan Times
> 
> *There is no point in arguing if you wish to cherry pick and intentionally omit one part of the story to demonise the RSS to further your point.*



If you look up the back issues of Deccan Herald and Times of India, you will get even more startling results, starting with the antecedents and background of a very, very senior BJP politiican currently in trouble because of his favouring his son and son-in-law.

I quoted only those sections that showed his links with the Sangh Parivar, since that was my point, that he had such links, not that he had them permanently. This was in opposition to being told with a lofty air of condescension that the Sri Ram Sene was in fact nothing to do with the Parivar.

Again, I repeat: they are intimately connected. Pramod Muthalik gets away scotfree only because he represents the 'plausible deniability' of the Sangh Parivar. They do what the Parivar would do if the Parivar did not have to worry about trashy things and the cretins who go and vote.


----------



## somebozo

I wonder why isnt he banned already?

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## Dalai Lama

What is this BS?!

Mods please delete this thread.


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## Rig Vedic

Joe Shearer said:


> Again, I repeat: they are intimately connected. Pramod Muthalik gets away scotfree only because he represents the 'plausible deniability' of the Sangh Parivar. They do what the Parivar would do if the Parivar did not have to worry about trashy things and the cretins who go and vote.



That's your theory. Far more plausible is the possibility is the Mutalik is a ploy to divide "Hindu" votes.



> If you look up the back issues of Deccan Herald and Times of India, you will get even more startling results, starting with the antecedents and background of a very, very senior BJP politiican currently in trouble because of his favouring his son and son-in-law.



Why are we being coy. Spill the beans and we shall examine how far the RSS hypothesis holds up.


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## Rig Vedic

Joe Shearer said:


> That's right. 85&#37; of the population was attacked by the rest. Oh, I forgot to exclude the Christians and the Sikhs, from the rest.



Indics in India are routinely subjected to brutal pogroms, with the connivance of the authorities. Most recent example being Debanga.

*The Pioneer :: Home : >> Anatomy of a riot foretold
*



> The Maoists have already gone on record having killed Lakshmananda for his anti-people record of preaching hate and dividing people on communal lines. In case you haven't noticed, the Maoists, given their predilection for violence, are not particularly communal. In fact, the contrary; they execute any religious preachers in their territories.



As regards Lakshmananda, it was the Christian faction of the Maoists that was responsible for the massacre of the Ashram residents, with the abetment of powerful Christian Congress politicians. In fact, the gory murder resulted in a split between the Hindu and Christian Maoists. 



> Funny how they thought Lakshmananda was a bigot and preacher of hate worth killing, but not Staines.


Not at all surprising, it was Lakshmanananda who was a hurdle for the evangelists, not Staines.



> I don't want to expose the whole dreadful situation on a *foreign web-site*. But if you look up the history of the culture of the Konds, who are now called Kandha by Sanskritising elements, and their history of human sacrifice, and the arms' length relationship they had with caste Hindu society, intermediated by the Pans, today called the Panas, a lot of things will fall into place.



Why the predilection for foreign sources when there is an official Indian inquiry report - 



> "Sources of the violence were deeply rooted in land disputes, conversion and re-conversion and fake certificate issues," Justice S C Mohapatra, heading the one-man panel, said in his interim report on the violence in Kandhamal which claimed 43 lives besides damaging many houses and churches.
> 
> *Conversion, reconversion led to Kandhamal riots: Commission - The Times of India*


Please note that the truth is very different from your "RSS did it" rant.



> Yes, they do exist - so what is it that the Parivar likes to do? X does something in place Y; right, let's get the bastard. Let's burn alive A, in place B. And don't forget the kids, they'll grow up to be missionaries too.



My dear fellow, you have yet to apologize for your dishonest cherry-picking of the article on Mutalik. Such flights of rhetoric are unlikely to further your cause.


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## Rig Vedic

Subramanian said:


> yeah,yeah they did it and there is nothing wrong with it if you compare this to what hindus had to endure.



Most of the structure, in particular the massive walls, was in fact demolished after Kalyan Singh had already quit. It is in fact not known which individuals organized the tools, and who actually damaged the domes.


----------



## Rig Vedic

Joe Shearer said:


> The RSS was responsible for:
> 
> 6. The encouragement and sponsorship of fanatic elements responsible for subordining officers in the Indian Army and for planting explosives on the Samjhauta Express, causing more loss of innocent lives;



Incidentally, there is some new insight on the Samjhauta incident, which our friend Joe is desperately trying to pin on the RSS.

*Headley involved in 2007 Mumbai train blast by Lashkar-e-Taiba, ex-wife had told US agents | Frontier India - News, Analysis, Opinion*

Sometimes, the sheer shamelessness and dishonesty of our secularists is mind-boggling. I mean, how is this any better than Zaid Hamid saying that Mumbai 26/11 was all an RSS plot to eliminate "Kurkuray".


----------



## Kompromat

> *Please Read the Whole Article !*




*'Kashmir genocide like Bosnia'*

Published: December 09, 2010









WASHINGTON (Agencies) &#8211; WikiLeaks revealed that a cable sent from a US Mission in India termed former Indian Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor an incompetent combat leader and rather a geek. His war doctrine, suggesting eliminating China and Pakistan in a simultaneous war front was termed &#8216;much far from reality&#8217;. 

Another cable indicates that Gen Kapoor was dubbed as a General who was least bothered about security challenges to the country but was more concerned about making personal assets and strengthening his own cult in the army.

The cable also suggested that a tug of war between Kapoor and the current Indian Army Chief had divided the Indian army into two groups. Yet another cable suggested that the current Army Chief of Indian General VK Singh was having an aggressive approach and believes that &#8216;offence is the best defence&#8217;. 

General Singh has also been described as &#8216;Pakistan, China centric&#8217;, with an added aggression towards China. The cable mentioned General Singh as an egotist, self-obsessed, petulant and idiosyncratic General, a braggadocio and a show-off, who has been disliked (and barely tolerated) by all his subordinates. 

An earlier cable described Indian Army in gross human rights violations in Indian Held part of Jammu and Kashmir while some Lt-Gen HS Panag, the then GOC-in-Chief of the Northern Command of the Indian Army was equated with General Milosevic of Bosnia with regard to butchering Muslims through war crimes. 

The cable urged Washington to secretly divert UN attention towards the genocide of innocent civilians in Held Kashmir on the hands of Indian Army and also suggested that US should avoid holding any joint drill with Indian army until it stops inhuman activities in Kashmir. The cable termed one Lt-Col AK Mathur as &#8220;Devil&#8217;s Advocate&#8221; at Srinagar.

Another cable indicated involvement of top Indian Army leadership in engaging Hindu extremist militants to carry out certain terror operations to keep Indian Muslims on the back foot and to keep pressure on neighbouring Pakistan&#8217;s army and intelligence agencies, particularly the Inter Services Intelligence. The cable did confirm the active presence of ISI in India but it refused to confirm any involvement of ISI in any terror incident across India and did confirm intelligence collection by its agents and operatives. Another cable confirmed that there was a nexus of top Indian army officials and extremist Hindu outfits.

This cable suggested that an Indian police officer, a counter terror specialist with the name of Hemant Karkare had exposed this nexus to some extent when he arrested a serving colonel of Indian Army, Lt-Colonel Purohit for blazing a Pakistan-bound train (Samjhota Express).

The cable suggested that Hemant Karkare held a secret meeting with a senior US diplomat at New Delhi during the national day reception of a friendly country and briefed him about the gravity and the growing depth of the nexus between top Indian army leadership and the militant Hindu fanatic groups. Karkare sought security for him and his family from the said American diplomat as he feared that the army and establishment would eliminate him as he intended to move further to expose the network.

He had further briefed the said US diplomat that a former Commander in Chief of the Central Command of the Indian army, Lt-General PN Hoon was heading the militancy wing of the Hindu extremists and was getting full tactical, logistic and financial support from senior army officers. The day, Karkare was eliminated in a pre-planned ambush during the Mumbai attacks, a cable sent to the US read &#8220;we have lost an important link and a vital evidence&#8221;.

Another cable sent to Washington termed Hindutva brotherhood in general and Shiv Sena in particular, as ticking time bombs with regard to militancy and terrorism. It was suggested that fund raisers like Hindu Students Council of America etc should be banned to raise funds as they were generating funds for the Hindu militant outfits under the garb of charity.

Another file dubs Hindutva Brotherhood as a far bigger threat to regional and global peace that Taliban, Al-Qaeda and LeT and the later three were declared as &#8220;peanuts&#8221; if equated with Hindutva Brotherhood and Sangh Parivaar and Washington was urged to take up the issue with New Delhi.

Another cable expressed grave concern over Indian government&#8217;s ability to handle naxal insurgency movement as 80 per cent of Indian nuclear and missile facilities were present in the insurgency hit areas of India while the Indian security forces were totally helpless in ensuring the writ of the government in that particular area, known as the &#8220;Red Corridor of India&#8221;.

Another cable from Islamabad suggested that there were enough evidence of Indian involvement in Waziristan and other tribal areas of Pakistan as well as Balochistan. ISI Chief General Ahmad Shuja Pasha&#8217;s extension in services was termed a good omen in one such cable and it was added that his further presence on the scene would enhance the agency&#8217;s abilities to combat anti-terror war.

'Kashmir genocide like Bosnia' | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

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## ares

Perhaps the original wikileaks article(and not its interpretation by a pakistani newspaper) will be a more authentic source for the above..

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## Nalwa

This particular wikileak is unverified and the only known newspaper to publish is the one you have quoted here. Please post another independent source.

And a similar thread was started yesterday as well. Guess you forgot to use the similar threads function in your excitement.


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## Hindustani

Again anything but worthless green media  

Btw what shall we call the Kashmiri Pundit refugees?


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## kallu_be

Till now there is no cable mentioning deepak kapoor, hemanth karkare etc.

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## Hindustani

kallu_be said:


> Till now there is no cable mentioning deepak kapoor, hemanth karkare etc.



No neutral sources as of now. Keep getting these pakistani made up stories.


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## GUNS-N- ROSES

no kashmiri genocide is equivalent to nazi genocide of jews. only thing, it is being done by terrorists and not indian armed forces. wat abt mass killings of kashmiri pandits. 

the report has no credibility.


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## WAR-rior

kashmir == bosnia.....

WISH THEY FIND SOME MASS GRAVES of 1000s of ppl.....  

not gonna happen dude....

bosnia was worse.....just coz bosnia got seperated doesnt mean kashmir will be just by linking it to bosnian massacre.....

u have no idea what bosnia incidence was when u compare it with kashmir !

get some life plz !

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## Fasih Khan

*An earlier cable described Indian Army in gross human rights violations in Indian Held part of Jammu and Kashmir while some Lt-Gen HS Panag, the then GOC-in-Chief of the Northern Command of the Indian Army was equated with General Milosevic of Bosnia with regard to butchering Muslims through war crimes. 

The cable urged Washington to secretly divert UN attention towards the genocide of innocent civilians in Held Kashmir on the hands of Indian Army and also suggested that US should avoid holding any joint drill with Indian army until it stops inhuman activities in Kashmir. The cable termed one Lt-Col AK Mathur as Devils Advocate at Srinagar.
*

*Death to Occupation
*

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## GUNNER

I don't think there is any credibility to this news. We' ve been spending hours with Wikileaks each day and our team hasn't come across any cable with such content. If there had been one, Television outlets would ve picked it first. Second, the name of diplomat who wrote the cable has not been mentioned which makes it all the more suspect given the tilt of The Nation these days.

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## GUNS-N- ROSES

Fasih Khan said:


> *An earlier cable described Indian Army in gross human rights violations in Indian Held part of Jammu and Kashmir while some Lt-Gen HS Panag, the then GOC-in-Chief of the Northern Command of the Indian Army was equated with General Milosevic of Bosnia with regard to butchering Muslims through war crimes.
> 
> The cable urged Washington to secretly divert UN attention towards the genocide of innocent civilians in Held Kashmir on the hands of Indian Army and also suggested that US should avoid holding any joint drill with Indian army until it stops inhuman activities in Kashmir. The cable termed one Lt-Col AK Mathur as Devils Advocate at Srinagar.
> *
> 
> *Death to Occupation
> *




lol seriously get a life. sure i would be the first one to admit abt collatoral damages in any operation. but equating kashmir with bosnia is ridiculous.

by the way same context can be applied to baluchistan. u know.


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## amigo

provide orignal tanscripts, otherwise this thread is waste, like all other threads like this. don't copy paste articles from any news daily.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

GUNNER said:


> I don't think there is any credibility to this news. We' ve been spending hours with Wikileaks each day and our team hasn't come across any cable with such content. If there had been one, Television outlets would ve picked it first. Second, the name of diplomat who wrote the cable has not been mentioned which makes it all the more suspect given the tilt of The Nation these days.



We were quarreling with Jana all night yesterday.

We can't access the cables either to check the credibility of the article.


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## LaBong

Now when a _researcher _has posted the article, we can assume a thorough research before re-posting the same thread which has been debated to death. May be we can expect the original transcript from our esteemed researcher this time!

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## Cityboy

post original cable transcript/neutral source...not any biased yellow media source


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## KS

Oh Boy ! Not again ---- Not another 'Supposed' Wikileaks thread.


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## misterme2

GUNNER said:


> I don't think there is any credibility to this news. We' ve been spending hours with Wikileaks each day and our team hasn't come across any cable with such content. If there had been one, Television outlets would ve picked it first. Second, the name of diplomat who wrote the cable has not been mentioned which makes it all the more suspect given the tilt of The Nation these days.





"We' ve been spending hours with Wikileaks each day and our team hasn't come across any cable with such content."....Very interesting..I love the way Pakistani's think bro.....effective and creative......Keep it up!

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## riju78

Not again:... one thing I learned fm the last few days.... write as much bs u want and just say it came from wikileaks... jana aka journalist opened one yesterday which was interesting...and now this....


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## StingRoy

Looks like the dailymail/nation.pk types are trying to cash in on the wikileaks train and pushing these propaganda news. Similar to the article Jana posted yesterday.


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## Fasih Khan

*You Indians Shamelessly Keep in the State of Denial to the facts. Suits your types.*

---------- Post added at 02:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 PM ----------

*Facts remain the facts weather you like em or Not.*

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## Kompromat

WAR-rior said:


> kashmir == bosnia.....
> 
> WISH THEY FIND SOME MASS GRAVES of 1000s of ppl.....
> 
> not gonna happen dude....
> 
> bosnia was worse.....just coz bosnia got seperated doesnt mean kashmir will be just by linking it to bosnian massacre.....
> 
> u have no idea what bosnia incidence was when u compare it with kashmir !
> 
> get some life plz !



Those are war trophies for you bhartis.

Mass Graves In Kashmir By Dr. Angana Chatterji

http://www.worldpulse.com/node/15774

http://en.news.maktoob.com/20090000402374/Rights_groups_find_mass_graves_in_Kashmir/Article.htm

http://technorati.com/politics/article/2600-bodies-found-in-kashmir-mass/


*I wish this turns unto you someday.*

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## GentlemanObserver

Hindustani said:


> Again anything but worthless green media
> 
> Btw what shall we call the Kashmiri Pundit refugees?



I am going to repeat myself to you... YOU ARE ON A GREEN WEBSITE

Cut the CRAP!

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## twoplustwoisfour

---------Deleted----------


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## Bang Galore

Black Blood said:


> Those are war trophies for you bhartis.
> 
> Mass Graves In Kashmir By Dr. Angana Chatterji
> 
> Mass Graves in Kashmir | World Pulse
> 
> Rights groups find mass graves in Kashmir, India Politics - Maktoob News
> 
> 2,600 Bodies Found in Kashmir Mass Graves - Technorati Politics
> 
> 
> *I wish this turns unto you someday.*



I don't wish any such thing for you but all these stories run into a very big problem.

_The problem is this:_

If the Indian army is so brutal & ruthless as to be responsible for all these deaths, why would they then bury neatly all the bodies of the people thus killed when it would make more sense to cremate them & therefore dispose of the evidence. While there was no photograph of the graves in the links given by you, an earlier thread showed one where you could see row of graves neatly tended to & with clear definition. Hardly something that the Indian Army or any other would do. Btw, the general definition of a mass grave is one grave where many bodies are dumped into, not many neatly marked out graves even if they don't have markers suggesting who was buried there.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Bang Galore said:


> I don't wish any such thing for you but all these stories run into a very big problem.
> 
> _The problem is this:_
> 
> If the Indian army is so brutal & ruthless as to be responsible for all these deaths, why would they then bury neatly all the bodies of the people thus killed when it would make more sense to cremate them & therefore dispose of the evidence. While there was no photograph of the graves in the links given by you, an earlier thread showed one where you could see row of graves neatly tended to & with clear definition. Hardly something that the Indian Army or any other would do. Btw, the general definition of a mass grave is one grave where many bodies are dumped into, not many neatly marked out graves even if they don't have markers suggesting who was buried there.




If its was disposing bodies we'd done it like Mexican drug lords do.
Drop them in Acids tanks.

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## KS

Bang Galore said:


> I don't wish any such thing for you but all these stories run into a very big problem.
> 
> _The problem is this:_
> 
> If the Indian army is so brutal & ruthless as to be responsible for all these deaths, why would they then bury neatly all the bodies of the people thus killed when it would make more sense to cremate them & therefore dispose of the evidence. While there was no photograph of the graves in the links given by you, an earlier thread showed one where you could see row of graves neatly tended to & with clear definition. Hardly something that the Indian Army or any other would do. Btw, the general definition of a mass grave is one grave where many bodies are dumped into, not many neatly marked out graves even if they don't have markers suggesting who was buried there.





Bombensturm said:


> If its was disposing bodies we'd done it like Mexican drug lords do.
> Drop them in Acids tanks.



Plus it could also be the graves of the Kashmiri Pandits who underwent an ethinic cleansing not long ago.

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## Hindustani

Paladin said:


> I am going to repeat myself to you... YOU ARE ON A GREEN WEBSITE
> 
> Cut the CRAP!



I understand this is a "green" website. However if you claim "green" media as a tangible source, then I can post any junk found on the web to back my argument. So far there has been no neautral source to back either this, about how bosnia and kashmir relate or even that thread that the so called "journalist" jana posted yesterday.


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## GentlemanObserver

Hindustani said:


> I understand this is a "green" website. However if you claim "green" media as a tangible source, then I can post any junk found on the web to back my argument. So far there has been no neautral source to back either this, about how bosnia and kashmir relate or even that thread that the so called "journalist" jana posted yesterday.



1. You just breached a forum rule by referring to a member in the post. (Please respect the rules)

2. I have seen plenty of posts from Indian's here posting nonsense from Saffron media, so lets not start with the holier then thou attitude, because you will FAIL

3. Not that is matters to lowbies like you but Jana "AKA: Farzana Shah" is a renowned Journalist:

http://www.paktribune.com/news/authorscenter.php?id=97

blog.dawn.com/author/farzana-shah/

4. Stop embarrassing yourself.

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## Hindustani

Paladin said:


> 1. You just breached a forum rule by referring to a member in the post. (Please respect the rules)
> 
> 2. I have seen plenty of posts from Indian's here posting nonsense from Saffron media, so lets not start with the holier then thou attitude, because you will FAIL
> 
> 3. Not that is matters to lowbies like you but Jana "AKA: Farzana Shah" is a renowned Journalist:
> 
> http://www.paktribune.com/news/authorscenter.php?id=97
> 
> blog.dawn.com/author/farzana-shah/
> 
> 4. Stop embarrassing yourself.


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## ajtr

If kashmir would have been bosnia then predators, b-52 would have been flying over india and usa AC would ve been parked in bay of bengal,arabian sea, indian ocean..but then we dont see bosnia style operations neither from usa nor from NATO.Instead we are seeing totally different scenario of usa planes flying in pakistani airspace and bombing with impunity will that make Pakistan's west as bosnia??????


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## Dalai Lama

I would like to see the original Wikileaks document. There's too much BS in this to believe without a credible source.


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## justanobserver

TheDeletedUser said:


> I would like to see the original Wikileaks document.



Not gonna happen.

This will turn up like the other "Hindutva brotherhood" "Iran-India TTP" thread(s)

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## Dalai Lama

justanobserver said:


> Not gonna happen.
> 
> This will turn up like the other "Hindutva brotherhood" "Iran-India TTP" thread(s)



Still it would be nice to read the document (if it exists) rather than read green media's interpretation of it.


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## justanobserver

TheDeletedUser said:


> Still it would be nice to read the document *(if it exists)*



That the point, the document does not exist


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## Dalai Lama

justanobserver said:


> That the point, the document does not exist



I suspect the same but still, I like to keep an open mind to humor our fellow Pakistani members!

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## Kinetic

*Not again!!! *

We just had huge fun on this yesterday!!!! nation.pk/dailymailnews if wants to create such stories they need to leak US emb papaers like wikileaks.


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## paritosh

mods should delete this thread...if there is no authenticity behind it.
no point going haywire discussing useless ****...


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## KS

paritosh said:


> mods should delete this thread...if there is no authenticity behind it.
> no point going haywire discussing useless ****...



Useless **** ??? I dont think so.

It has got some high-voltage India Bashing in it. So lets sit back and enjoy the show.

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## GentlemanObserver

paritosh said:


> mods should delete this thread...if there is no authenticity behind it.
> no point going haywire discussing useless ****...



Mods...

If you delete this thread then i humbly and respectfully request that you also delete the threat in Pakistan's War posted by USER: Bombay.

He has no sense of human decency posting pictures of what happened to Pakistani Army Soldiers 4 years ago. How would our Indian friends like it if we started doing the same.

For a forum with a Pakistani base we sure do tolerate a lot of disrespect against the motherland.

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## johnny boy

genocide!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ha ha ha get a life!!!!!!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Do u guys really think indians will ever accept reality? comeon people.... they wont accept anything! 

DEATH TO INDIAN OCCUPATION.

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## WAR-rior

just like death to terrorists ?

then we all agree !


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## sparklingway

*I hope everybody here realizes that Jang Group has published hoax reports from fake Wikileaks first published by Ahmed Quraishi/Rupee News. These are fake cables. Media fooled by our "agencies". Surely, everything they wanted to say about India just found a "fake" source.*

*Leaking Away (Updated)
*​Reading through the top story in today's The News and Jang, my eyes grew progressively wider and wider. Not so much from the latest Wikileaks revelations about India as from sheer incredulity.






The News Karachi's front page today​

Titled "Enough evidence of Indian involvement in Waziristan, Balochistan" (aside: how much is 'enough'?) in The News, the main story deals with a slew of information allegedly from US diplomatic cables sent from Delhi as well as other missions around the world about India. They confirm everything Pakistanis (or at least certain types of Pakistanis) always said about India: it's direct involvement of India in the anti-state activities in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) and Balochistan, the weakness of the Indian dossier on Ajmal Kassab, the manipulated nature of Indian evidence about the ISI's involvement in the Mumbai attacks, the sissyness of India's generals who do things out of personal ego and petulance rather than well-thought-out strategy, the internal rifts in the Indian army, the similarity of the situation in Kashmir with that in Bosnia in the 1990s, the involvement of Indian intelligence in promoting Hindu extremists to conduct false flag attacks against India itself to implicate the ISI and Indian Muslims etc etc etc.


[CENTER




Jang's front page today[/CENTER]

But I think where my incredulity reached a tipping point was when the cables claimed well regarded Indian policeman Hemant Karkare - who had been following leads about the involvement of Indian right-wing Hindutva organizations in the Samjhota Express bombing and about whose death there has already been plenty of controversy within India - was "eliminated in a pre-planned ambush during the Mumbai attacks", the implication being 'by the covert operatives of the Indian army.' According to the report in The News:


"The cable suggested that Hemant Karkare held a secret meeting with a senior US diplomat in New Delhi during the national day reception of a friendly country and briefed him about the gravity and the growing depth of the nexus between top Indian Army leadership and the militant Hindu fanatic groups. Karkare sought security for him and his family from the said American diplomat as he feared that the army and establishment would eliminate him as he intended to move further to expose the network. He had further briefed the said US diplomat that a former commander-in-chief of the Central Command of the Indian army, Lt Gen PN Hoon, was heading the militancy wing of the Hindu extremists and was getting full tactical, logistic and financial support from senior army officers. The day, Karkare was eliminated in a pre-planned ambush during the Mumbai attacks, a cable sent to the US read we have lost an important link and a vital evidence."


This was HUGE. This was BEYOND huge! Surely the world would be going mad with this new revelation!

Imagine my bewilderment then, when I turned to other papers and discovered that there seemed to be no mention of this story anywhere in any other Pakistani paper... not Dawn, not Express Tribune, not the Daily Times et al (Okay, so The Nation and Nawai Waqt did have it, but who believes anything they run?). Did the Jang Group and Majid Nizami's vanity projects just scoop everyone else? So I went online to check the Indian papers. No mention. Cowards. But what was really strange was that I couldn't seem to find these incredibly incriminating cables anywhere on the Guardian Wikileaks website or even mentioned anywhere in a Google News search.

In fact, the only other place which seemed to have the story were those redoubts of journalistic integrity, Rupee News and the Daily Mail Post type sites. Ah. And this absurd plant is your top story, Jang Group? Really?

Small wonder The News and Jang give the source of the report as "Agencies."

Question: How stupid do the "Agencies" really think Pakistanis are?


: : : UPDATE : : : 

So, the Express Tribune did in fact run a similar story. On page 8. Datelined Washington and sourced from the wire agency Online. I had mistakenly thought they had had better sense but it seems they didn't have much faith in the revelations to put them on the front page or somewhere else more prominent. Which of course begs the question, then why run them at all?

Incidentally, here is a link to the cheerleader Ahmed Quraishi's page, making the most of his imagination. And here is the Daily Mail Post basking in his reflected glory. Thanks to @Rezhasan and Shahid Saeed for the links.

Cafe Pyala: Leaking Away (Updated)

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## heyheyhey

just one question sir. why not delete this tread when its obviously based om false/not confirmed news? dont you think treads like this effects the quality of this forum?


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## Subramanian

Joe Shearer said:


> You didn't get it at all, did you? You don't have to choose between either evil. Just opt for the rule of law. You don't have to create a new party either. Just make it clear which way your vote will go. And watch Bihar happen.



Rule of law.Good,now the party in power is what determines which version of the rule of law is exercised.Rule of law is pretty much absent in India,whether it is relevant or not.

Thats why one has to make a choice,even if it is not perfect.

Bihar is just one case where the ruling party abused power so much for so long that people are bound to appreciate even a little improvement in governance.

Even on those grounds the secularists and communists are big legends of screwing up economy and security with their illogical and impractical self imposed constraints.


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## Subramanian

Joe Shearer said:


> Just go check. Everyone in Hubli and Dharwar knows. Pramod Mutalik was an RSS man for years.
> 
> _Aged 13, he joined the RSS in 1975. In 2004, he become the convenor for South India for the Bajrang Dal. During this time, he helped the BJP in the assembly polls, especially in north Karnataka which soon became the partys stronghold.​_
> 
> _Stating that he wanted a political platform to advance the objectives of Hindutva, he joined the Shiv Sena on August 28, 2005. He was accompanied by the former district president of the Bajrang Dal for Belgaum, Vilas Pawar, and some 5,000 workers belonging to the Bajrang Dal, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad and the Bharatiya Janata Party. This marked the formation of the Shiv Sena in Karnataka._​
> 
> They aren't affiliated. They are simply protected.
> 
> _Pramod Multhalik has over 45 cases pending against him, and is wanted by the police in 11 districts of Karnataka. Most of these cases are still under investigation and relate to subversive activities, defiling religious books, unlawful assembly, violating prohibitory orders, and evading judicial warrants. Most were filed between the years 2000 and 2008. A look at the chargesheet makes it clear that he has never been arrested for any of these cases.​_
> People lodged complaints against them and found that they themselves were getting investigated. Just go check the mailing list of Nirbhaya Karntaka; or ask the Alternate Law Forum in Bangalore.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you realise how silly that sounds?
> 
> What do you plan to do, oppress all non-Hindus for 1,000 years and oppress all Congressmen and their families for 50 years?
> 
> Or make everyone keep to the law and lead lawful lives?




Yeah Pramod muthalik's moral view and sentiments is the same of the sangh,his methods are not.The sangh doesn't support bullshit like abusing women who go pubs and all even if it might be against it.

And all those offences alleged are nothing,he is a fvckin saint compared to many murderers,extortionists and public thieves who roam the streets of india with power.


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## Subramanian

Joe Shearer said:


> Do you realise how silly that sounds?
> 
> What do you plan to do, oppress all non-Hindus for 1,000 years and oppress all Congressmen and their families for 50 years?
> 
> Or make everyone keep to the law and lead lawful lives?



I dont want to oppress anyone.But i just want Hindus of India to feel their pride,respect their culture and keep their honor.If they have to do it,they have to cut down this secularism(pseudo) bull **** and recognize people of bookish faiths for what they are.

India is a unique place with its strong culture holding people together despite everyone being so different,it is a free country in the truest sense.If we have to keep this,we need people who put the land above their religion and this attitude is what makes Hinduism.It doesn't matter whether u go to temple or not,whether u approve of any rituals or not,but making your loyalty waver from this land is treason and it is serious treason.

Every country in the world works by the feeling of the majority except India.


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## Subramanian

Rig Vedic said:


> Indics in India are routinely subjected to brutal pogroms, with the connivance of the authorities. Most recent example being Debanga.
> 
> *The Pioneer :: Home : >> Anatomy of a riot foretold
> *
> 
> 
> 
> As regards Lakshmananda, it was the Christian faction of the Maoists that was responsible for the massacre of the Ashram residents, with the abetment of powerful Christian Congress politicians. In fact, the gory murder resulted in a split between the Hindu and Christian Maoists.
> 
> 
> Not at all surprising, it was Lakshmanananda who was a hurdle for the evangelists, not Staines.
> 
> 
> 
> Why the predilection for foreign sources when there is an official Indian inquiry report -
> 
> 
> Please note that the truth is very different from your "RSS did it" rant.
> 
> 
> 
> My dear fellow, you have yet to apologize for your dishonest cherry-picking of the article on Mutalik. Such flights of rhetoric are unlikely to further your cause.



Yeah,heard you well and good but this is the Indian Inquisition,you sow what you reap.


----------



## LaBong

Subramanian said:


> I dont want to oppress anyone.But i just want Hindus of India to feel their pride,respect their culture and keep their honor.If they have to do it,they have to cut down this secularism(pseudo) bull **** and recognize people of bookish faiths for what they are.
> 
> India is a unique place with its strong culture holding people together despite everyone being so different,it is a free country in the truest sense.If we have to keep this,we need people who put the land above their religion and this attitude is what makes Hinduism.It doesn't matter whether u go to temple or not,whether u approve of any rituals or not,but making your loyalty waver from this land is treason and it is serious treason.
> 
> *Every country in the world works by the feeling of the majority except India*.



The question is who are majority in India? Hindus are not homogeneous group but an amalgam of thousands of conflicting sects, people with believe in one, many or no god(s). How do you know that your version of Hindus constitute the majority of Indian population. If we go by the result of recent elections, then you're horribly wrong at your claim.

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## KS

Joe Shearer said:


> If you look up the back issues of Deccan Herald and Times of India, you will get even more startling results, starting with the antecedents and background of a very, very senior BJP politiican currently in trouble because of his favouring his son and son-in-law.



And how is this relevant here ?



Joe Shearer said:


> I quoted only those sections that showed his links with the Sangh Parivar, since that was my point, that he had such links, not that he had them permanently. This was in opposition to being told with a lofty air of condescension that the Sri Ram Sene was in fact nothing to do with the Parivar.



And I quoted the parts that say he was expelled from the Sangh for his activities.Thats the extent the sangh can go.They cant take an AK and shoot the shyt out of him for that.



Joe Shearer said:


> Again, I repeat: they are intimately connected. Pramod Muthalik gets away scotfree only because he represents the 'plausible deniability' of the Sangh Parivar. They do what the Parivar would do if the Parivar did not have to worry about trashy things and the cretins who go and vote.



Conspiracy theory and nothing more! Since I have disproved your claim that He was a part of the Sangh while he indulged in that Mangalore Pub incident you are now resorting to accusations that cannot be proved. 

Tell me one thing -- You are working in a firm and you have been fired for your mis-demeanor (hypothetical scenario) and you continue to indulge in it even after you have been fired. Now can anyone fault your employer for your mis-conduct after you have been fired ??

It seems they can according to the logic you peddle here.


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## Subramanian

Abir said:


> The question is who are majority in India? Hindus are not homogeneous group but an amalgam of thousands of conflicting sects, people with believe in one, many or no god(s). How do you know that your version of Hindus constitute the majority of Indian population. If we go by the result of recent elections, then you're horribly wrong at your claim.



Which results are you talking about?


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## justanobserver

Subramanian said:


> Every country in the world works by the feeling of the majority except India.


[quote="Abir']
The question is who are majority in India? Hindus are not homogeneous group but an amalgam of thousands of conflicting sects, people with believe in one, many or no god(s)[/quote]

Common Abir we all know what Subramanian is saying, so let me be blunt :

All of this 'minority' (note that I'm a Jain, but I don't get special privileges ) politics started with the Congress and the goddamn Shah Bano case. Implement the Uniform Civil Code, remove Hajj subsidies and I'll stop whining about Congress/Pseudo Secularism


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## Subramanian

Well,he seems more pissed than anything else.

His speech gives a great point though.

Jammu and Ladakh have to be separated from the valley and article 377 should be repealed there.

That would be a great start.Jammu could be a state and Ladakh could be a union territory.


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## Subramanian

Abir said:


> The question is who are majority in India? Hindus are not homogeneous group but an amalgam of thousands of conflicting sects, people with believe in one, many or no god(s). How do you know that your version of Hindus constitute the majority of Indian population. If we go by the result of recent elections, then you're horribly wrong at your claim.



Hindus are not a homogeneous group from inside but compared to what is happening in the world (Pan-Arabism,Pan Turkism,Euro,Mesocur etc).People are grouping together to handle problems,The culture of hinduism goes a long way and there were differences of opinion to Central authority at all times.


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## Subramanian

Irfan Baloch said:


> my boy, its not a bicycle. its a question of the wishes of tens of thousands of people who's right of freedom was robbed off them.
> 
> desipte Indian efforts the truth is out and the sacrificies of the Kashmiri people , their constant marches their rejection of Indian occupation is evident that they just dont want to be under Indian rule.
> 
> this is exactly what the people of subcontinent did back in 1857 against the mightiest empire the world had ever seen. it may appear that all the efforts and sacrifices were wasted away and the British Empire brutally crushed the rebalian but the seed was sowed which resulted in the formation of two indipendent states.
> 
> Indians might be smug about their military and economic power they may be smug about the world's selfish bullies to be on their side but the fact remains that the Indian state is working against the history..
> *the forced opperession has always failed in the past and will fail this time too*.



It did work,that is how Muslims came to India.


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## Subramanian

GUNNER said:


> *Charge Nehru with sedition, Arundhati tells Delhi*
> 
> 
> *By Jawed Naqvi*
> 
> 
> *Sunday, 28 Nov, 2010*
> 
> 
> *NEW DELHI, Nov 27:* A Delhi court ordered police on Saturday to file charges against a Kashmiri resistance leader and his Indian supporters who have been accused by the national media of sedition.
> 
> 
> However, writer activist Arundhati Roy, one of the alleged participants in a recent anti-national seminar, *said police should first file sedition charges against Jawaharlal Nehru because the countrys first prime minister believed the Kashmir dispute could only be settled by the people of Kashmir.*
> 
> 
> Delhis Metropolitan Magistrate Navita Kumari Bagga directed the police to lodge an FIR against hardline Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Ms Roy and five others on the charge of sedition for their alleged anti-India speeches.
> 
> 
> Ms Bagga, under pressure from rightwing Hindu petitioners, slammed the police for their prolonged inaction and weird reply that no offence was made out against Mr Geelani and Ms Roy, whose speeches had triggered a nationwide controversy.
> 
> 
> Ms Roy said it was a frivolous case which had sought to shift the focus away from the raging financial scandals that have rocked Prime Minister Manmohan Singhs government. Leading media personalities, some of them questioning her patriotism, were caught in the net of a damaging probe.
> 
> 
> In a press statement, Ms Roy listed a number of occasions when Indias first prime minister had described the Kashmir dispute in a manner which would offend most Indians today. *She urged the police to file an FIR against Mr Nehru posthumously*.
> 
> 
> According to Ms Roy, in his statement in the Indian Constituent Assembly on 25th November, 1947, Mr Nehru said:
> 
> In order to establish our bona fide, we have suggested that when the people are given the chance to decide their future, this should be done under the supervision of an impartial tribunal such as the United Nations Organisation. *The issue in Kashmir is whether violence and naked force should decide the future or the will of the people*.
> 
> 
> In his statement in the Indian Parliament on 7th August, 1952, according to Ms Roy, Mr Nehru said:
> 
> Kashmir is very close to our minds and hearts and if by some decree or adverse fortune, ceases to be a part of India, it will be a wrench and a pain and torment for us. *If, however, the people of Kashmir do not wish to remain with us, let them go by all means. We will not keep them against their will, however painful it may be to us. I want to stress that it is only the people of Kashmir who can decide the future of Kashmir*
> 
> *However sad we may feel about leaving we are not going to stay against the wishes of the people. We are not going to impose ourselves on them on the point of the bayonet.*
> 
> 
> Ms Roy said the Indian government was clearly violating Mr Nehrus pledge by seeking to bludgeon the people of Kashmir into submission.
> 
> 
> 
> DAWN.COM | Front Page | Charge Nehru with sedition, Arundhati tells Delhi




Yeah yeah **** Nehru,**** Gandhi,**** whoever.

The country is above everyone else,in the past present or future.

The insolent ***** is throwing tantrums now,**** i wish people just ignored her completely.


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## LaBong

justanobserver said:


> Common Abir we all know what Subramanian is saying, so let me be blunt :
> 
> All of this 'minority' (note that I'm a Jain, but I don't get special privileges ) politics started with the Congress and the goddamn Shah Bano case. Implement the Uniform Civil Code, remove Hajj subsidies and I'll stop whining about Congress/Pseudo Secularism



Not sure what Congress and their stupid policies have to do with secularism? Why do you think I'd support the things you mentioned and how those things make various fundamentalism as shown by hard-liners of BJP valid? 

Like Joe said, had we followed the law of the land, we'd have neither had to face Shahbanu case nor Babri demolition.


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## LaBong

Subramanian said:


> Which results are you talking about?



Election results in last decade or so, that shows that the right wing fraction of BJP don't have majority following them. BJP had to project the moderate facade of Vajpayee to come to power. Advani had to travel to Pakistan and praise Jinnah to restore his tarnished image after Babri. Need I say more?


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## justanobserver

Abir said:


> Not sure what Congress and their stupid policies have to do with secularism? Why do you think I'd support the things you mentioned and how those things make various fundamentalism as shown by hard-liners of BJP?
> 
> Like Joe said, have we followed the law of the land, we'd have neither had to face Shahbanu case nor Babri demolition.



I was pointing to Subramanian's point:


Subramanian said:


> Every country in the world works by the feeling of the majority except India.



What he _really_ wanted to say:



Subramanian said:


> Only India works by the feeling of the 'minority'


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## LaBong

Subramanian said:


> Hindus are not a homogeneous group from inside but compared to what is happening in the world (Pan-Arabism,Pan Turkism,Euro,Mesocur etc).People are grouping together to handle problems,The culture of hinduism goes a long way and there were differences of opinion to Central authority at all times.



It all depends on your and mine *perception *of problem, isn't it? As a country can't run by perception of various people, so we need legal framework to run the country. In the end, once again, follow and uphold the laws of the land.


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## Subramanian

Abir said:


> Election results in last decade or so, that shows that the right wing fraction of BJP don't have majority following them. BJP had to project the moderate facade of Vajpayee to come to power. Advani had to travel to Pakistan and praise Jinnah to restore his tarnished image after Babri. Need I say more?



This analysis is totally wrong,most of the results have been because of coalitions,anti incumbency reflecting in central results,weakening of third front,large scale mal practices even in EVMs and the biggest statistic of all is the bad voter turn out of less than 70%.

You are talking as if the BJP and Congress are two people who went head on in an arm wrestling match up.

And i feel the BJP lost because they were not hardliner enough and that weaned away their upper middle class and urban voters.


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## Subramanian

Abir said:


> It all depends on your and my *perception *of problem, isn't it? As a country can't run by perception of various people, so we need legal framework to run the country. In the end, once again, follow and uphold the laws of the land.



i completely agree with you,make relevant laws and follow them to the hilt instead of mocking the whole show.

but whats the connection of this with what i wrote?


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## Subramanian

Abir said:


> Election results in last decade or so, that shows that the right wing fraction of BJP don't have majority following them. BJP had to project the moderate facade of Vajpayee to come to power. Advani had to travel to Pakistan and praise Jinnah to restore his tarnished image after Babri. Need I say more?



Advani and his cronies right now are the biggest mismanagers ever.

BJP is screwed up now after the loss of Pramod Mahajan,Yashwant Sinha,Arun Shourie,Jaswant Singh.

This is hardly what a Sangh guy wants to see.


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## LaBong

justanobserver said:


> I was pointing to Subramanian's point:
> 
> 
> What he _really_ wanted to say:



There is some truth in appeasing the minority. But to be fair, minorities themselves are affected more by the vote bank politics which upholds the mad mullahs rather than educated ilk, than majority. It's another matter that not many in minority speaking out against it.


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## LaBong

Subramanian said:


> i completely agree with you,make relevant laws and follow them to the hilt instead of mocking the whole show.
> 
> but whats the connection of this with what i wrote?



I didn't read the whole thread, but reading last few posts, it seemed Joe was making a point about following the laws of the land.


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## Bang Galore

Subramanian said:


> *And i feel the BJP lost because they were not hardliner enough and that weaned away their upper middle class and urban voters*.



That would be a brilliant analysis if they had actually voted for some one more hardline. Voting for the Congress cannot be a substitute according to your analysis, can it?

The BJP lost because it no longer connects with those who would have been its natural constituency. 2010 is not 1991 & the claim of Muslims being appeased no longer rings true. The effects of liberalisation has shown up that bit. (the Muslims lack of education really hit them hard). The new mantra is economic, no longer religious. The BJP is left singing a tune that fewer & fewer people are interested in.

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## Bang Galore

Subramanian said:


> Advani and his cronies right now are the biggest mismanagers ever.
> 
> BJP is screwed up now after the loss of *Pramod Mahajan,Yashwant Sinha,Arun Shourie,Jaswant Singh.*
> 
> This is hardly what a Sangh guy wants to see.



Interesting that none of the four were sangh favorites & except for Mahajan, had no connection to the RSS at all.


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## KS

Joe Shearer said:


> Have you heard of the rapists' defence? "It wouldn't have been rape if she'd just cooperated!" So a matter in the courts becomes something that people take action on arbitrarily, with the aid and abetment of the local provincial government? And you come into a Pakistani forum and tell them that they are no-goodniks who can't do anything about people promoting illegal camps and training terrorists, and collaborating with sympathetic elements in the administration?



Wrong analogy ! Having *** with your wife is not rape. Ayodhya was always a sacred land of Hindus and it would have been great if the Muslim organisations could have donated that land.

Also another important factor leading to the demolition was the widespread sentiment at that time about the minority-pandering that was going un-abashedly going on at that time starting with the Shah Bano case and it was seen as an assertion of Hindu indentity. You may give 1000 things to the contrary but it was exactly that.




Joe Shearer said:


> That's right. 85% of the population was attacked by the rest. Oh, I forgot to exclude the Christians and the Sikhs, from the rest.



When 1 Hindu is being attacked by 10 Muslims or 10 Christians it is the Hindu who is 10% of the rest.That 85% matters nilch at that place.

And Mr. being 85% is not our mistake. I have seen this ridiculous logic elsewhere as well.You guys are 80% so you can compromise,you can do this,you can do that.....

Why should we compromise just because we are large in number ?? World over it is the minorities who adapt themselves to live with the majority and I dont know why in India alone the majority has to try to live with the minority. 



Joe Shearer said:


> You are beginning to sound like the guys who kill Christian women and children in their homes for blasphemy.



Totally irrelevant and BTW I dont need your esteemed opinion. 




Joe Shearer said:


> And this is the same government, the same Congress, you were referring to in your other posts? All of a sudden, they are truthful, reliable and full of integrity. I must introduce you to Captain Jack Sparrow.



What is relevance here ?? Then by your logic if the unabashedly pro-minority Congress itself says only 790 lives then it surely must be well below that.




Joe Shearer said:


> Yes, they do exist - so what is it that the Parivar likes to do? X does something in place Y; right, let's get the bastard. Let's burn alive A, in place B. And don't forget the kids, they'll grow up to be missionaries too.



Here 'A' was not burnt --- 'X' itself was burnt.

And if it gives you any solace,Dara Singh is in Jail. 



Joe Shearer said:


> The Maoists have already gone on record having killed Lakshmananda for his anti-people record of preaching hate and dividing people on communal lines. In case you haven't noticed, the Maoists, given their predilection for violence, are not particularly communal. In fact, the contrary; they execute any religious preachers in their territories. Funny *how they thought Lakshmananda was a bigot and preacher of hate worth killing, but not Staines.*



And Maoists are not anti-communal. They are anti-Hindu.

And if they are the supposedly atheist followers of Mao why should they demand a Mosque for Muslims in Ayodhya.

And the bolded part was exactly what I wanted to say --- the Christian Evangelists are hand in glove with the Maoists and these Maoist scums act like mercenaris for the bloody money these evangelists get from abroad.

Face it -- The Fanatic evangelists found the Swami as a thorn in their flesh and as an obstacle in their 'Harvest'. Khatam Karo. Bas.

And it is totally and utterly hypocritical of you to cry for Staines when chuckling at the death of Swamy and labelling him as bigot.



Joe Shearer said:


> As far as the riots themselves go, the trouble is that you and other Sangh fanatics and bigots never bother to go into the background, the sociology and the anthropology of the situation.
> 
> I don't want to expose the whole dreadful situation on a foreign web-site. But if you look up the history of the culture of the Konds, who are now called Kandha by Sanskritising elements, and their history of human sacrifice, and the arms' length relationship they had with caste Hindu society, intermediated by the Pans, today called the Panas, a lot of things will fall into place.
> 
> You will find that the majority of the anti-Christian rioters were human-sacrificing, cattle-killing Konds, 'converted' through a programme of 'aggressive missionary' activity by the VHP, and set against their previous intermediating tribe, the Panas, among whom there were many converted Christians. It was converted-Hindu Kond against converted-Christian Pana; apparently, the converted-Christian Konds were affected to a much lesser extent.If you want, I'll go further. But then don't tell me later that I'd embarrassed you.



The VHP and the Swamy did not teach the Konds to sacrifice cattle and humans (btw this seems to be your usual exaggeration). Infact Hinduism forbids cattle slaughter and VHP is avowedly against cow-slaughter.Get your facts right.

And for the record this was never a Hindu-Christian fight.Rather it was centuries old rivalry between the SC Panas and the ST Konds.

The killing of the Swamy (held in high regard by the Konds for his exceptional social work among them) was a trigger that set the forest ablaze. And our usual bleeding heart liberals along with an assorted fanatics like John Dayal (was initially surprised at the hate that was flowing out of his mouth ,that too on national television) made it look like Hindus were out there drinking Christian blood for supper.




Joe Shearer said:


> So now we are equating this traitor to his oath with the LeT and the JeM? Well done!



Innocent until proven guilty Mr. That is the bedrock of the Law which you so passionately argue in favour of.




Joe Shearer said:


> Of course, when the Pakistanis say similar things, we hate it. Then it's a question of deliberate foot-dragging by them, deliberate filing of weak plaints, in order to encourage the judge to throw the case out, it's a question of tacit encouragement by the establishment.



Pakistan saying and the US Treasury Dept officially saying are two different things.



Joe Shearer said:


> Has it ever occurred to you that there might be a logical reason why Muslim organisations announce what they have done and take responsibility for it, and *Hindu organisations in this case didn't?*



Maybe because they did not do in the first place --- Has it ever occured to you ?



Joe Shearer said:


> Muslim organisations in India are on the losing side, both with regard to their stature in the eyes of people in general, in the eyes of the media, and even in the eyes of their own people. This is why they proclaim who they are; their message, that you get as good as you give, so leave us alone.



Good . 



Joe Shearer said:


> Hindu undercover organisations attack their own installations, temples and public property in order to raise sympathy for their cause - the Muslims are out to kill us all. For this to succeed, obviously the operations, the actions must be secret at all times.



Until they openly claim that they have done so or the Court of Law ultimately find them guilty in face of irrefutable evidence this is as worthy as Zaid Hamid's gem - 'Ajmal Kasab is Amar Singh from Punjab'.




Joe Shearer said:


> I've been visiting those areas from 1981, when I used to work selling steel. I've seen this growing in front of my eyes, first the aggressive Jan Sanghis and their inclination to riot first and think second, then the pack which followed, the front organisations, the VHP and the Bajrang Dal, each darker than the other, then groups to work women, minorities, tribals, professionals - one step at a time, with methodical, sustained work.



Given your open pre-judice against the Sangh I have to take *YOUR* opinions with a ton of salt. Give me some credible thid party account and then we will discuss.



Joe Shearer said:


> I *am* putting the blame on Hindu right-wing organisations, based on the evidence of my own eyes, and my friends' accounts (not Congressmen, not Leftists, before you ask). I was there; were you?



Again let credible sources speak,Not you. If you expect me to take your opinions at face value,I expect the same from you and ultimately its just a farce.
And no offence,but your eyes are too colored against the Sangh.




Joe Shearer said:


> Because he was systematically protected from any police action against him, using the BJP's take over of the police force, the civil administration body that they address first. *That single act in itself should tell you a lot about the Parivar*.



No it doesnt tell --- Tel me do you know for sure that he had not taken an anticipatory bail ??

And he is not exactly the first person to be so. There are hundreds of politicians in India who have far serious criminal cases against them and are not yet arrested.


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## KS

Abir said:


> Not sure what Congress and their stupid policies have to do with secularism? Why do you think I'd support the things you mentioned and how those things make various fundamentalism as shown by hard-liners of BJP valid?
> 
> *Like Joe said, had we followed the law of the land, we'd have neither had to face Shahbanu case nor Babri demolition.*



Exactly --- first straighten out the law and make it a level playing ground.

Abolish all the religion specific Personal laws and introduce the Uniform Civil Code.

Abolish all the Haj subsidies,all the reservations based on religion etc.

Only then you are on moral high ground to ask everyone to follow the Law.


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## LaBong

> Wrong analogy ! Having *** with your wife is not rape.



Having _forced _sex with wife does consider as rape.

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## LaBong

Karthic Sri said:


> Exactly --- first straighten out the law and make it a level playing ground.
> 
> Abolish all the religion specific Personal laws and introduce the Uniform Civil Code.
> 
> Abolish all the Haj subsidies,all the reservations based on religion etc.
> 
> Only then you are on moral high ground to ask everyone to follow the Law.



How am I in moral low ground when I didn't make or support those laws? However I have priorities, abolishing Haj subsidies is an issue with very very low priority compared to things Joe has mentioned. You of Comp Sc background ain't you? You should know about priority scheduling and all!


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## Bang Galore

Karthic Sri said:


> Exactly --- first straighten out the law and make it a level playing ground.
> 
> *Abolish all the religion specific Personal laws and introduce the Uniform Civil Code*.



Could not agree with you more.



> *Abolish all the Haj subsidies,all the reservations based on religion etc.*



Also the subsidies given for trips to Manasarovar (the Karnataka government gives 25,000/- to each of those who go) & immediately stopping grants to religious institutions. ( The Karnataka government spent 60 crores on Hindu religious institutions in its budget)

All reservations even when caste based are religious in nature, don't see anything wrong in the economically backward among the minorities getting some benefit from them.

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## KS

Abir said:


> Having _forced _sex with wife does consider as rape.



According to AIMPLB it is not.



Abir said:


> How am I in moral low ground when I didn't make or support those laws? However I have priorities, abolishing Haj subsidies is an issue with very very low priority compared to things Joe has mentioned. You of Comp Sc background ain't you? You should know about priority scheduling and all!



The things Joe mentioned will automatically vanish if these discriminatory laws are abolished. These things are the oxygen the right wing groups thrive on and if you want to make them irrelevant,cut off those oxygen supply.

As simple as that.


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## KS

Bang Galore said:


> Also the subsidies given for trips to Manasarovar (the Karnataka government gives 25,000/- to each of those who go) & immediately stopping grants to religious institutions. ( The Karnataka government spent 60 crores on Hindu religious institutions in its budget)



The Government is spending on Hindus not out of its packets. But most of the Big Temples are under Government control (In Tamil Nadu it is and we even have a separate ministry) and the *Government just spends a fraction from the collections from the temples which come in the form of donations in Hundis and the revenue from the temple lands.* 

This is not the case of Haj subsidies. An appropriate example would be the Central Govt allocating an annual Amarnath or Kashi Yatra Budget.

Also if the govt stops those spendings on Hindu temples then please do it after relinquishing the control on the temples.They are well-endowed to take care of themselves.No need for any Govt Subsidy or allocations.



Bang Galore said:


> All reservations even when caste based are religious in nature, don't see anything wrong in the economically backward among the minorities getting some benefit from them.



No sorry, I dont see any sense in my Hard earned Tax money being used to finance the Haj subsidy of other person.


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## LaBong

Karthic Sri said:


> According to AIMPLB it is not.



Rape doesn't come under the realm of personal laws. IPC applies to everyone.


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## Subramanian

Bang Galore said:


> That would be a brilliant analysis if they had actually voted for some one more hardline. Voting for the Congress cannot be a substitute according to your analysis, can it?
> 
> The BJP lost because it no longer connects with those who would have been its natural constituency. 2010 is not 1991 & the claim of Muslims being appeased no longer rings true. The effects of liberalisation has shown up that bit. (the Muslims lack of education really hit them hard). The new mantra is economic, no longer religious. The BJP is left singing a tune that fewer & fewer people are interested in.



Thats not true,BJP succeeded because people were fed up with the congress rule and voted for anyone opposite the congress and BJP was the alternative.Things like pakistan,babri masjid and all are hardly a factor when it comes to voting.Very few people vote on this basis.

The winning parties always want to feel like kings and they choose to selectively analyse why they won and not the real thing.

BJP was economically also better for India,they managed the post pokhran sanctions,Dot com bust and the early global recession brilliantly without compromising growth and fundamentally they never allowed hyper inflation in essential commodities even though we were not doing all that great during those times.

Congress won 2010 because they got the votes of the third front in most states and anti-incumbency votes too.


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## Subramanian

Bang Galore said:


> Interesting that none of the four were sangh favorites & except for Mahajan, had no connection to the RSS at all.



Not really,all of them were right wing people associated with the Janata party or jan sangh and with jai prakash narayan's movement.And the RSS,even though has a big say in the BJP doesn't really control it as many like to believe.


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## Bang Galore

Karthic Sri said:


> The Government is spending on Hindus not out of its packets. But most of the Big Temples are under Government control (In Tamil Nadu it is and we even have a separate ministry) and the *Government just spends a fraction from the collections from the temples which come in the form of donations in Hundis and the revenue from the temple lands.[/B*


*

Not so, this is to private mutts, nothing to do with temples. The Haj subsidy & the Manasarovar one are identical.




No sorry, I dont see any sense in my Hard earned Tax money being used to finance the Haj subsidy of other person.

Click to expand...


This was specifically directed at the issue of reservation. My point stands.*


----------



## Bang Galore

Subramanian said:


> Not really,all of them were right wing people associated with the Janata party or jan sangh and with jai prakash narayan's movement.And the RSS,even though has a big say in the BJP doesn't really control it as many like to believe.



Not at all. Jashwant Singh was a former army officer & the RSS did their best to prevent him from getting a ministry portfolio in 1998. Yashwanth Sinha was a former IAS officer who joined the Janata party & was with Chandrashekhar as FM in 1991. Arun Shourie is no one's man but his own.



Subramanian said:


> Thats not true,BJP succeeded because people were fed up with the congress rule and voted for anyone opposite the congress and BJP was the alternative.*Things like pakistan,babri masjid and all are hardly a factor when it comes to voting.Very few people vote on this basis.*



Then what did you mean by this.



> Originally Posted by Subramanian View Post
> And i feel the BJP lost because they were not hardliner enough and that weaned away their upper middle class and urban voters.


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## KS

Bang Galore said:


> Not so, this is to private mutts, nothing to do with temples. The Haj subsidy & the Manasarovar one are identical.



So what ?? it is taking from the temples and giving to the mutts. The Govt is just the middleman here with some usual kickbacks and is not something extra-ordinary.

If the Govt stops them tomorrow then the temples will give to the mutts.Atleast some money will be saved in kickbacks.



Bang Galore said:


> This was specifically directed at the issue of reservation. My point stands.



Sorry, I misconstrued it. I am all for reservation based purely on economic grounds. Nothing based on caste (except SC,ST as they need it and I am neither) and especially nothing based on religion. Atleast there is a provision in the Constitution for reservation based on Caste but none whatsoever for anything based on religion.


----------



## Joe Shearer

Rig Vedic said:


> That's your theory. Far more plausible is the possibility is the Mutalik is a ploy to divide "Hindu" votes.



A deeper reach into fantasy, since Mutalik has never once exposed himself to the dynamics of elections. How can he divide Hindu votes when he has been turning out in support of Sangh Parivar candidates even after being 'expelled' from the Bajrang Dal?



Rig Vedic said:


> Why are we being coy. Spill the beans and we shall examine how far the RSS hypothesis holds up.



I believe that there are reasons not to go beyond a point on certain web-sites. Please look up the track record and careers of the police officers who were in charge in Hubli and Dharwar, during the career and strange upward track of the top BJP politicians. Please do not be surprised at finding in these records sufficient reason to suspect collusion, and a clear understanding of how 'expelled' workers worked whole-heartedly for the Parivar without attracting to the Parivar the opprobrium that these activities led to.



Rig Vedic said:


> Indics in India are routinely subjected to brutal pogroms, with the connivance of the authorities. Most recent example being Debanga.
> 
> *The Pioneer :: Home : >> Anatomy of a riot foretold
> *



What is an Indic? Your code for Hindu? 

And you expect an unbiased report from Chandan Mitra, called to talk on TV talk shows to represent the BJP? and the Sangh Parivar in general?

It is interesting that while I have been critical of all three political angles relevant at the national level, BJP/Sangh Parivar, Congress and Leftists, you are exclusively committed to the interests of the Sangh Parivar.




Rig Vedic said:


> As regards Lakshmananda, it was the Christian faction of the Maoists that was responsible for the massacre of the Ashram residents, with the abetment of powerful Christian Congress politicians. In fact, the gory murder resulted in a split between the Hindu and Christian Maoists.



Really?

Christian faction of the Maoists? Are we innovating politically here? Is there any religious divide within the Maoists, except in the overheated minds of the BJP and its supporters?




Rig Vedic said:


> Not at all surprising, it was Lakshmanananda who was a hurdle for the evangelists, not Staines.



Nowhere, in all its activities, have the Maoists supported evangelists. The Maoists have their own very clearly defined agenda and political programme; like it or leave it, they are clear about what they represent and what they want, and whom they oppose.

There can be no doubt, I hope, gauging by their activities, not only in Orissa, but also in Chhatisgarh, that they are irreconcilably hostile to the BJP and its fascist politics. There is no point in discovering mythical religious segments and orientation within their ranks in order to ward off the clear consequences of Lakshmananda's violent proselytisation. If he had not opposed the conversions among the Pans or Pannas, if he had not taken the route of allying himself with the human-sacrificing, and, ironically, beef-eating Konds or Kandhas, the communal upheaval would not have occurred. 

The Sangh Parivar, in this case, I believe, the VHP, took advantage of the keen resentment of the Kandhas to Pannas seeking to be treated with respect and human dignity to couch this anthropological problem in religious terms, and to use the activity of conversions to create the bloodshed and disorder which traditionally they have used to fetch votes.

Just like the National Socialists.





Rig Vedic said:


> Why the predilection for foreign sources when there is an official Indian inquiry report -



Apparently you are not careful when you refer to others' posts; I was not referring to information on some other web-site, I was referring to some possible limits on PakDef.




Rig Vedic said:


> Please note that the truth is very different from your "RSS did it" rant.



Are we supposed to accept these Nanavati Commissions as the truth? Strange, isn't it? On the one hand, when these commissions and enquiries are mounted by your political opponents, you scoff at them as being biased and motivated, but your own side's commission and enquiries, or the commissions and enquiries that favour your favoured interest are as pure as the driven snow.

There are sufficient detailed reports prepared by NGOs, including those with no Christian affiliation or interest, to tell you, me and the rest of the world what is happening. There is also the anthropological evidence, which I rather suspect you never had even heard of before reading it here.



Rig Vedic said:


> My dear fellow, you have yet to apologize for your dishonest cherry-picking of the article on Mutalik. Such flights of rhetoric are unlikely to further your cause.



First, I am not particularly flattered by your form of address; I would rather not be your dear fellow, considering myself neither dear to you nor your fellow. Not to hurt you, but I would rather pick my own friends, and not have them thrust themselves on me. There is little chance of our getting friendly, I fear.

Second, there is no question of apologising for what you say is cherry-picking. I selected those passages that suited my purpose, rather than quoting the whole, which would have diluted the impact.

Pramod Muthalik still remains a child of the Parivar, he still marches in lock step with the Parivar, and he saunters in and out of Shankar Bidari's office as if he owns the man. Why don't you ask Bangaloreans involved in the struggle against him, against the Parivar and against the social engineering that Yedyurappa's government brought in what they feel, directly? 

The fact is, I think we both know what is happening in reality, and this is your effort to pervert the world's understanding of it taking advantage of the fact that the state is actively protecting him.

How ironic to read you and your ilk foaming at the mouth about the identical behaviour by those sub-human non-Indics across the border. Perhaps you have more in common with them than you want to believe.



Rig Vedic said:


> Most of the structure, in particular the massive walls, was in fact demolished after Kalyan Singh had already quit. It is in fact not known which individuals organized the tools, and who actually damaged the domes.



Special pleading. 

Perhaps it was the tooth-fairy. Perhaps it was the CRPF jawans, who had nothing to do and got bored. Perhaps it was SIMI, looking for new provocations. The Chinese? they aren't too far away. Are we forgetting the Chinese?



Rig Vedic said:


> Incidentally, there is some new insight on the Samjhauta incident, which our friend Joe is desperately trying to pin on the RSS.
> 
> *Headley involved in 2007 Mumbai train blast by Lashkar-e-Taiba, ex-wife had told US agents | Frontier India - News, Analysis, Opinion*
> 
> Sometimes, the sheer shamelessness and dishonesty of our secularists is mind-boggling. I mean, how is this any better than Zaid Hamid saying that Mumbai 26/11 was all an RSS plot to eliminate "Kurkuray".



I am a secularist, so that part of your observation is correct.

If you wish to include me in the Congress or the Leftist camps, try again. I have made it clear again and again, not just on this forum, but on other fora, and months before this particular thread, what I think of Congress and the Left in India.

Finally, if you think about it, Zaid Hamid has much more in common with your set than the secularists. Was it a secularist who said that Hindus and Muslims did everything the opposite way? Have you not heard Sadhvi Rithambra's ****** speeches?



Karthic Sri said:


> And how is this relevant here ?



Try not to act the innocent. By showing that the same nexus between politician and policeman that was active in those parts, fomented largely by Yedyurappa, continues today. The same protection that was extended to Muthalik then continues today.



Karthic Sri said:


> And I quoted the parts that say he was expelled from the Sangh for his activities.Thats the extent the sangh can go.They cant take an AK and shoot the shyt out of him for that.



No, that comment was typical of the mindset of the BJP and its supporters.

Nobody was talking about AK 47s and nobody was talking of shooting anybody. This is not Gujarat; this is not an encounter.

All they needed to do was to allow cases against him to move forward, instead of stone-walling them. All they needed to do was to observe the rule of law, rather than allowing it to be broken.

It is also noteworthy that the BJP spends huge amounts of time figuring how to get things done the perverted way, and hardly ever spends time doing things constitutionally.



Kartic Sri said:


> Conspiracy theory and nothing more! Since I have disproved your claim that He was a part of the Sangh while he indulged in that Mangalore Pub incident you are now resorting to accusations that cannot be proved.



I think that everything that has been said has registered with those who wish to learn more and did not have the facts, and I shall continue to give these facts the widest publicity. 

Let me remind you of a parallel: when from the Indian side, it was first suggested that 26/11 was a Pakistani -based incident, there was a tidal wave of outrage. Subsequently, stage by stage, more and more evidence has come out, and stage by stage, corresponding to that, the defence against our repeated statements has changed. Further, stage by stage, as things became clearer, there was apparent administrative and judicial action taken, all of which meandered away into the sands of judicial and administrative inaction.

Do you see the parallel? You are so full of admiration and defence for the Sangh today, as the links to Muthalik and Purohit become clearer, as they have already become clearer in identical fashion to Amit Shah, as they have already always been clear with respect to Baba Bajrangi, what will your defence be?



Kartic Sri said:


> Tell me one thing -- You are working in a firm and you have been fired for your mis-demeanor (hypothetical scenario) and you continue to indulge in it even after you have been fired. Now can anyone fault your employer for your mis-conduct after you have been fired ??
> 
> It seems they can according to the logic you peddle here.



Is that supposed to be a parallel? Is the world of business and misdemeanours, including lapses in business etiquette identical to crimes committed under the constitution? 

If you are saying that the firm fired an employee for acting in a criminal or in a justiciable manner, without taking appropriate action against him in reporting him to the police, or in taking judicial action against him, on the other hand, then the firm is certainly at fault.



justanobserver said:


> Common Abir we all know what Subramanian is saying, so let me be blunt :
> 
> All of this 'minority' (note that I'm a Jain, but I don't get special privileges ) politics started with the Congress and the goddamn Shah Bano case. Implement the Uniform Civil Code, remove Hajj subsidies and I'll stop whining about Congress/Pseudo Secularism



But who has anywhere objected to it?

Can't you read? Haven't you seen clearly the explicit statements that the misdeeds of the Congress are not justifications for the misdeeds of the Left, or that the misdeeds of either of them do not justify the misdeeds of the Sangh Parivar? 

This is not a Congress or a Leftist versus the Parivar platform; it is one which is against illegal actions against the citizens of a state, full citizens with full citizenship rights, no matter which political group is guilty of this.



justanobserver said:


> I was pointing to Subramanian's point:
> 
> _Every country in the world works by the feeling of the majority except India.
> _
> 
> What he _really_ wanted to say:
> 
> _Only India works by the feeling of the 'minority'_



That is because you, and people like you, encourage political parties to bend the constitution, which does not allow for the feeling of the minority or the feeling of the majority, but does require the ruling of the law.

Read the threads that your friends contributed. Left to themselves, without the fear of the law, they would be committing pogroms against the minorities every weekend. Their favourite party, or social movement cum party, the Sangh Parivar, openly incites violence, just like the Communists used to do, just like the Maoists still do. The Congress? They are too busy stealing money to bother rioting, except on the odd occasion that they are overcome by a fake loyalty and a fake emotion, and get a chance to act like animals.

Fortunately, due to the decades of democracy, and due to the decades of judicial authority that we have enjoyed, we still have some restraints on such behaviour. If we were to accept all the ideas that you have put forward, even indirectly, in this thread, please tell me: what is the difference between the state of India that you want, and the state of Pakistan as it is? except, of course, the role of the Army.


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## Bang Galore

Karthic Sri said:


> So what ?? it is taking from the temples and giving to the mutts. The Govt is just the middleman here with some usual kickbacks and is not something extra-ordinary.



That argument can be twisted to say that Haj subsidy is being paid for by Muslim taxpayers & therefore should be none of your concern. Your problem is the same as that of the BJP's - no consistency of position. If you take a position, then you must abide with it, not constantly changing the goalposts because you favour one side.

That was also the reason behind my complete disillusionment with the BJP; their stand on the Malegaon blasts, If you are hard on terrorism, then it should be with no exceptions. Making excuses for one lot not only wipes out credibility, it also gives the other side a chance to throw that very same argument in your face & cite double standards.

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## justanobserver

Joe Shearer said:


> That is because you, and people like you, encourage political parties to bend the constitution, which does not allow for the feeling of the minority or the feeling of the majority, but does require the ruling of the law.



Whoa there! Don't get personal on me Mr Shearer. 

It seems you didn't get what I was trying to say. I am a minority okay! But don't feel like one, because I'm fully integrated, and *I hate it when my government has to bend over backwards* to accommodate certain communities who refuse to integrate.

Yes I'm pissed off at this. You got a problem with that ? (no I'm not going to start a 'riot' if you do have a problem) 

Go ahead, brand my statement as "anti-'minority'", "communal" , "divisive, "anti-secular"


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## Rig Vedic

Joe, after your desperate and dishonest attempts to pin Samjhauta on the RSS, you need to explain why you should be taken any more seriously than Zaid Hamid.

That seems to be very typical of what you write.

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## Joe Shearer

justanobserver said:


> Whoa there! Don't get personal on me Mr Shearer.



There was nothing personal about any observation I made, and I can defend it adequately, thankYouVeryMuch. Let's look at the record.



justanobserver said:


> It seems you didn't get what I was trying to say. I am a minority okay! But don't feel like one, because I'm fully integrated, and *I hate it when my government has to bend over backwards* to accommodate certain communities who refuse to integrate.
> 
> Yes I'm pissed off at this. You got a problem with that ? (no I'm not going to start a 'riot' if you do have a problem)
> 
> Go ahead, brand my statement as "anti-'minority'", "communal" , "divisive, "anti-secular"



This is a distortion.

You may notice that my comments on your mail were divided into two portions. I had nothing _'personal'_ to say about the words that you cite above, except to point out that your rant against the Congress and the Mullahcracy was misplaced. The point of view being expressed by me and by others is *not* BJP vs. the Congress, it is the Rule of Law vs. those who keep violating it. 

I had, on the other hand, much to say about the smart remarks about Subramaniam having said something, but having meant something else.

I was pointing to Subramanian's point:
_Every country in the world works by the feeling of the majority except India._

What he really wanted to say:
_Only India works by the feeling of the 'minority'_​
This was wholly uncalled for, unless you have a vakalatnama from Mr. Subramaniam. You are not his 'mouthpiece' to explain what he really meant to say. If, on the other hand, you have selected that position of responsibility, you have to bear equal responsibility with him regarding his views, and what holding those views then entails. It entails, in this case, being considered to share his views, expressed in such detail that there is no ambiguity possible, that there is not much to be said for the rule of law, the rule of law is what the law is thought to be by the party currently in power, that violence against minorities is justified - I could go on, but I've just finished a meal.

It was not even this that led to what you construe as a 'personal' remark. It was the content of your own remarks, not Subramaniam's.

If it is your view, or you identify with the view that in India, the country's systems are skewed to work with the feelings of the minority, then it is fair to say that it is you who is responsible, along with others who think like you, that political parties can work for sections of the citizenry, rather than all the citizenry. It is then fair to say you are responsible for political parties using minority beliefs to curry favour with them, because it is you who acknowledges that this state exists.

I hope that this will not lead to the specious defence that you are merely saying this to be critical, because once having started to support Subramaniam, unless you explicitly say so, we are entitled to assume support for all of his views. He does not say that he will stop feeling 'pissed off' if minorities stop getting special treatment, he has a lot to say about the rule of law, about the rule of law being adaptable to the wishes of the party in power, rather than being uniform and immutable, and about the propriety of violent attacks on minorities. When you choose, of your own free will, to become his 'mouthpiece', you thereby shoulder the burden of these fascist views as well (fascist in the specific technical sense, not as a pejorative use).

Regarding your being a Jain and being a minority totally integrated to the majority: the Jains have not had any specific demands, as far as I know. The personal code applied to them is patchily described, but the marriage code applied is the Hindu Marriage Act. They, like all others, are permitted to marry under the Special Marriages Act. Everybody, including Muslims, and agnostics like me, are allowed to marry under the Special Marriages Act, and marrying in that way does not even preclude additional religious ceremonies (I should know, having suffered the indignity of being made to undergo three separate marriage ceremonies within a span of three days). 

So what disabilities do Jains have that they have cheerfully set aside, and decided to forget in order to march along with the majority? Besides Jains, Buddhists and Sikhs are also covered by the Hindu Marriage Act, so what's the problem? Is it that you'd like your own personal act, or code, and resent the Muslims having their own code? 

Regarding the Uniform Civil Code, that is a good thing; why is it not introduced, on a voluntary, irreversible basis? The BJP had a long stretch of ruling the country; why did they not work on this, although they were so vociferous about it while in opposition? The Congress may have acted like craven cowards; the Left may never had power; what stopped the BJP?


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## KS

Rig Vedic said:


> Joe, after your desperate and dishonest attempts to pin Samjhauta on the RSS, you need to explain why you should be taken any more seriously than Zaid Hamid.
> 
> That seems to be very typical of what you write.



Add to that his ill-conceived attempt to blame the wrong doings of Pramod Muthalik on RSS whereas in reality he was expelled from the Sangh which did not approve of his acitivities.

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## KS

Bang Galore said:


> That argument can be twisted to say that Haj subsidy is being paid for by Muslim taxpayers & therefore should be none of your concern. Your problem is the same as that of the BJP's - no consistency of position. If you take a position, then you must abide with it, not constantly changing the goalposts because you favour one side.



No I am not changing any goal posts buddy. And you comparison is anything but apt and in your own words - You are just twisting my logic purposefully to suit you. Let me explain why.

The donations given by the Government are wholly financed by the various collections accruing in the temples through the donations given by the devotees and also from the land revenue from the hundreds of acres of lands owned by the temples.

In all these cases the devotees are Hindu and Hindu only.

But in the case of Waqf properties the Government does *not* collect the money from them. So how can you equate both.??

I am paying indirectly for the Haj subsidy while again its me who pays for the temples also. I dont have any problems in paying for the temple but for Haj, I *dont *want to.



Bang Galore said:


> That was also the reason behind my complete disillusionment with the BJP; 1)*their stand on the Malegaon blasts,* If you are hard on terrorism, then it should be with no exceptions. 2)Making excuses for one lot not only wipes out credibility, it also gives the other side a chance to throw that very same argument in your face & cite double standards.



1) I will repeat what I said to Joe - Unlike the Jihadi organisations that claim responsibility for whatever activity that takes place, no Hindu organisation took resposibility for Malegaon.They are still accused and not proved of their crime. So shall we hold our horses ?

2) The second point is a cyclic logic. You can say the same about Hindu rightwing orgs while I can parrot it for jihadi orgs. And FYI this is the exact same logic the Hindu Rightwing orgs give for any of their transgressions and rightly so considering the soft corner the political parties have for minorities. This double standard has gone to such ridiculous levels that PDP (Kerala) whose activists and leader were convicted of serial bomb blasts in my city is termed secular while RSS is blamed as communal. We today have an Asimuddin Owaisi of a blatantly communal party ,MIM give lectures on secularism. 

So who will stop first ? And dont blame me for Double standards ,we all are guilty of it.

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## Joe Shearer

Rig Vedic said:


> Joe, after your desperate and dishonest attempts to pin Samjhauta on the RSS, you need to explain why you should be taken any more seriously than Zaid Hamid.
> 
> That seems to be very typical of what you write.



The Government of India's teams still have ample evidence about the involvement of these lunatic fringe elements in the Samjhauta Express blast, and in fact, the net has been extended to a senior swami in the inner echelons of power of the Sangh Parivar as late as the last fortnight or so. There is significant credibility for the version that has been built up.

I do not need to explain anything, as it is entirely up to you and to others reading me to decide how to take my views. I will not compromise, not with Hindu bigots, nor with bigots of any other religion; not with BJP fascists, nor with any other breed of fascists; not with the CPM and the Maoists, nor with any other political section advocating violent means to achieve their political ends.

You seem to miss the point: I'm not standing for election, nor am I seeking your approval, or the approval of the Indians as a whole, the Pakistanis, the Bangladeshis or the Chinese. 

Unlike Zaid Hamid, I don't depend on the TRPS of my show for my living.


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## infidel

Joe Shearer said:


> T*he Government of India's teams* still have ample evidence about the involvement of these lunatic fringe elements in the Samjhauta Express blast, and in fact, the net has been extended to a senior swami in the inner echelons of power of the Sangh Parivar as late as the last fortnight or so. There is significant credibility for the version that has been built up.
> 
> I do not need to explain anything, as it is entirely up to you and to others reading me to decide how to take my views. I will not compromise, not with Hindu bigots, nor with bigots of any other religion; not with BJP fascists, nor with any other breed of fascists; not with the CPM and the Maoists, nor with any other political section advocating violent means to achieve their political ends.
> 
> You seem to miss the point: I'm not standing for election, nor am I seeking your approval, or the approval of the Indians as a whole, the Pakistanis, the Bangladeshis or the Chinese.
> 
> Unlike Zaid Hamid, I don't depend on the TRPS of my show for my living.



WTH..
which teams are u talking about ?
CBI , ATS , Teestas, Barkhas...???
these teams ???

what proof these teams of ure congress has managed to get so far ???
other then concocted politicially motivated stories to blame one particular community.


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## KS

infidel said:


> WTH..
> which teams are u talking about ?
> CBI , ATS , Teestas, Barkhas...???
> these teams ???
> 
> what proof these teams of *ure* congress has managed to get so far ???
> other then concocted politicially motivated stories to blame one particular community.



Buddy please dont get personal. Atleast he is not guilty of supporting the congress


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## Rig Vedic

Joe Shearer said:


> The Government of India's teams still have ample evidence about the involvement of these lunatic fringe elements in the Samjhauta Express blast, and in fact, the net has been extended to a senior swami in the inner echelons of power of the Sangh Parivar as late as the last fortnight or so. There is significant credibility for the version that has been built up.



What teams and what evidence? Let us look at the so called evidence. Why should anyone believe that that isn't a load of nonsense put out by the Congress government to defame Indic movements, especially when there is so much specific data pointing in a completely different direction.


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## justanobserver

Joe Shearer said:


> This was wholly uncalled for, unless you have a vakalatnama from Mr. Subramaniam. You are not his 'mouthpiece' to explain what he really meant to say. If, on the other hand, you have selected that position of responsibility, you have to bear equal responsibility with him regarding his views, and what holding those views then entails. It entails, in this case, being considered to share his views, expressed in such detail that there is no ambiguity possible, that there is not much to be said for the rule of law, the rule of law is what the law is thought to be by the party currently in power, that violence against minorities is justified - I could go on, but I've just finished a meal.
> 
> It was not even this that led to what you construe as a 'personal' remark. It was the content of your own remarks, not Subramaniam's.
> 
> If it is your view, or you identify with the view that in India, the country's systems are skewed to work with the feelings of the minority, then it is fair to say that it is you who is responsible, along with others who think like you, that political parties can work for sections of the citizenry, rather than all the citizenry. It is then fair to say you are responsible for political parties using minority beliefs to curry favour with them, because it is you who acknowledges that this state exists.
> 
> I hope that this will not lead to the specious defence that you are merely saying this to be critical, because once having started to support Subramaniam, unless you explicitly say so, we are entitled to assume support for all of his views. He does not say that he will stop feeling 'pissed off' if minorities stop getting special treatment, he has a lot to say about the rule of law, about the rule of law being adaptable to the wishes of the party in power, rather than being uniform and immutable, and about the propriety of violent attacks on minorities. When you choose, of your own free will, to become his 'mouthpiece', you thereby shoulder the burden of these fascist views as well (fascist in the specific technical sense, not as a pejorative use).
> So what disabilities do Jains have that they have cheerfully set aside, and decided to forget in order to march along with the majority? Besides Jains, Buddhists and Sikhs are also covered by the Hindu Marriage Act, so what's the problem??



I said what I felt about Subramaniam's particular post, spare me the psychoanalysis, notice I haven't been thanking him nor quoting him for his other views





> Is it that you'd like your own personal act, or code


NO



> resent the Muslims having their own code


YES

Ideally I wouldn't want Hindu, Muslim or Christian marriage acts, but a Uniform Civil Code.

However I don't resent the "Hindu Marriage Act" because it is *essentially* a set of secular laws (I know about Hindu Laws in the Manu Smriti ok ? They're not included in this act)

The problem with the Muslim marriage act it that it allows polygamy by virtue of religious scriptures, which I resent (not the actual scriptures but interference of religion). Are we Saudi Arabia ? Polygamy ?! Of course there is the Triple Talaq BS!

The Christian Marriage act is fine , but it does not allow same sex marriage (which is already against the law here). So when it (same sex marriage) becomes legal yes, they'd be a problem

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## infidel

Rig Vedic said:


> What evidence? Let us look at the so called evidence. Why should anyone believe that that isn't a load of nonsense put out by the Congress government to defame Indic movements, especially when there is so much credible data pointing in a completely different direction.



there is no evidence whatsoever against them.
Pragya has been in jail for months, and not a single charge has been proven against her yet, everytime congress seems to be losing public sympathy, all of a sudden ATS brings out one more allegation out of thier sleeves maligning another senior leader of RSS, and some intellect bigots or i should say useful idiots, lap these trickeries of congressis.


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## Rig Vedic

Karthic Sri said:


> Add to that his ill-conceived attempt to blame the wrong doings of Pramod Muthalik on RSS whereas in reality he was expelled from the Sangh which did not approve of his acitivities.



Not just expelled .. he was even working against the BJP in the elections, contrary to what Joe imagines. See *SRS chief Promod Mutalik likely to contest LS election | Chennai Vision News*


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## justanobserver

Here is my post again if you missed it



> I said what I felt about Subramaniam's particular post, spare me the psychoanalysis, notice I haven't been thanking him nor quoting him for his other views
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it that you'd like your own personal act, or code
> 
> 
> 
> NO
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> resent the Muslims having their own code
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> YES
> 
> Ideally I wouldn't want Hindu, Muslim or Christian marriage acts, but a Uniform Civil Code.
> 
> However I don't resent the "Hindu Marriage Act" because it is essentially a set of secular laws (I know about Hindu Laws in the Manu Smriti ok ? They're not included in this act)
> 
> The problem with the Muslim marriage act it that it allows polygamy by virtue of religious scriptures, which I resent (not the actual scriptures but interference of religion). Are we Saudi Arabia ? Polygamy ?! Of course there is the Triple Talaq BS!
> 
> The Christian Marriage act is fine , but it does not allow same sex marriage (which is already against the law here). So when it (same sex marriage) becomes legal yes, they'd be a problem
Click to expand...


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## Rig Vedic

Joe Shearer said:


> What is an Indic? Your code for Hindu?
> 
> And you expect an unbiased report from Chandan Mitra, called to talk on TV talk shows to represent the BJP? and the Sangh Parivar in general?



Indic is Indic. Look it up in a dictionary.

You were claiming that is impossible for 85&#37; of the population to be attacked by minorities. When told about a typical, actual, pogrom you respond with ad-hominem insinuations.

Anyway, there are dozens of press reports cited at *2010 Deganga riots - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*



Joe Shearer said:


> Really?
> 
> Christian faction of the Maoists? Are we innovating politically here? Is there any religious divide within the Maoists, except in the overheated minds of the BJP and its supporters?
> 
> Nowhere, in all its activities, have the Maoists supported evangelists. The Maoists have their own very clearly defined agenda and political programme; like it or leave it, they are clear about what they represent and what they want, and whom they oppose.
> 
> There can be no doubt, I hope, gauging by their activities, not only in Orissa, but also in Chhatisgarh, that they are irreconcilably hostile to the BJP and its fascist politics. There is no point in discovering mythical religious segments and orientation within their ranks in order to ward off the clear consequences of Lakshmananda's violent proselytisation. If he had not opposed the conversions among the Pans or Pannas, if he had not taken the route of allying himself with the human-sacrificing, and, ironically, beef-eating Konds or Kandhas, the communal upheaval would not have occurred.
> 
> The Sangh Parivar, in this case, I believe, the VHP, took advantage of the keen resentment of the Kandhas to Pannas seeking to be treated with respect and human dignity to couch this anthropological problem in religious terms, and to use the activity of conversions to create the bloodshed and disorder which traditionally they have used to fetch votes.
> 
> Just like the National Socialists.



It is not surprising to see Joe trying to justify the slaughter of an elderly monastic, along with other Ashram residents. Laxmanananda had been targeted by violent converts on many previous occasions. And yes, there was indeed a split in the Maoist ranks on communal lines, with the Christian converts supporting the murder. Here is a report written by an expert on Maoist terrorism:



> *Orissa: Fissures in Red*
> Fakir Mohan Pradhan
> Institute for Conflict Management
> *South Asia Intelligence Review (SAIR), Weekly Assessments & Briefings, 7.31*
> 
> Two dramatic developments in Orissa towards the end of 2008 and overflowing into the early months of 2009 have been the source of confusion regarding the Communist Party of India &#8211; Maoist&#8217;s (CPI-Maoist) future in this State on the India&#8217;s eastern coast. The first was the &#8216;split&#8217; within the outfit along religious lines, leading to the birth of a new outfit; the second was the expulsion of Sabyasachi Panda, &#8216;general secretary&#8217; of the Orissa unit of the CPI-Maoist. Although there has been some speculation regarding these developments, since both the &#8216;split&#8217; and the &#8216;expulsion&#8217; came to light through posters and a &#8216;press release&#8217;, it is more than certain that there is something deeply amiss within the group, and that this could create a serious challenge for its future activities in Orissa.
> 
> Intrinsically linked with both these developments was the killing of Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati, an activist of the Right Wing Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), on August 23, 2008, an incident that sparked widespread communal violence in the Kandhamal District. An earlier attack on the Swami in December 2007 had also sparked clashes in the area. The Swami&#8217;s anti-conversion activities, targeting the Christian population mostly belonging to the Pana caste, brought him closer to the Kui tribals in the region, who constitute almost 51 per cent population of the District; this had, however, brought him into direct confrontation with the Pana Christians, who account for just 18 per cent of the population, of which some 70 per cent has converted to Christianity. Both the Pana Christians and Kuis fought pitched battle in August and September 2008, leading to the deaths of at least 38 persons in the area and the displacement of thousands from their villages. Due to their sheer numerical disadvantage, the Pana Christians were the primary victims in the conflict.
> 
> Initially, there was utter confusion regarding the identity of the killers of the Swami. But Sabyasachi Panda claimed responsibility for the incident in October 2008, even writing an article in a local magazine "Manishara Bartabaha Swabhimana" justifying the killing and accusing Lakshmananda of creating sectarian divisions among the poor of the Kandhamal District. Panda wrote "After the December 2007 communal violence in Kandhamal, we threatened to kill him if he and his supporters did not refrain from harassing tribals and Dalit Christians to change their religion."
> 
> This declaration in ethnically polarized Kandhamal was seen as an open stance in favour of the Christians and appeared to have sparked off an immediate division within the CPI-Maoist&#8217;s Orissa unit, which comprises significant tribal cadres. A new outfit calling itself &#8216;M2&#8217; released posters on December 20, indicating that the group represented a breakaway faction of the CPI-Maoist, consisting of its Hindu cadres. The M2 renamed itself &#8216;Idealize of Democrat Guerrilla Army&#8211;Maoist&#8217; (sic) (IDGA-Maoist). However, the shorter &#8216;M2&#8217; has stuck, and M2 posters denouncing the People&#8217;s Liberation Guerrilla Army (PLGA) of the CPI-Maoist and Sabyasachi Panda for the VHP leader&#8217;s death have claimed that, while the Swami was opposed to proselytisation and killing of cows, he was not opposed to the Maoists. It accused the CPI-Maoist under Panda&#8217;s leadership of unnecessarily straying from its original objective of &#8216;class struggle&#8217;, towards a communal conflict in exchange for money from the Christian missionaries. An M2 sympathizer thus stated in a media interview: "Maoists don&#8217;t have any religion. Their religion is to safeguard the vulnerable people and fight exploitation and oppression. But those under Panda are acting like a mafia." On January 3, the day M2 was formally constituted, the outfit called for a bandh (general shutdown) in the Kandhamal, Gajapati and Ganjam Districts.
> 
> The bandh call evoked a spontaneous response across the Kandhamal District, and had partial impact in the two adjoining Districts &#8211; Gajapati and Ganjam. M2 has, since, enlisted the support of the Kui Samaj Samanwyay Samiti (KSSS), a body of Kui tribals in Kandhamal District. "We do not know who the leader of M2 is. But we support the outfit on the basis of the content of its posters. They have announced plans to fight for the interest of tribals who are exploited by others,'' KSSS leader Lambodar Kanhar said. The Maoists have traditionally enjoyed significant support among the Kui tribals and the Kui tribal organization, Kui Labanga Sangha (Kui Youth Association) has been proscribed since 2005-06 for serving as a front organization of the Maoists.
> 
> Close on the heels of the M2&#8217;s rather successful general shutdown call, the CPI-Maoist&#8217;s Central Committee announced the expulsion of Sabyasachi Panda. In a faxed message on January 16, 2009, to two Oriya language newspapers &#8211; Sambad and Dharitri &#8211; the outfit accused Panda of "anti-party activities" and threatened him with dire consequences for his "anti-people activities". It also held him squarely responsible for the communal violence in the Kandhamal District. The CPI-Maoist claimed that, though fighting against "Hindu fascist forces" has been its policy, &#8216;power hungry&#8217; Panda never sought permission or clearance from the Central Committee before executing such a crucial decision as that of eliminating Swami Lakshmananda. Because of Sabyasachi Panda&#8217;s &#8216;ego&#8217;, "poor people suffered" and the "outfit got blamed in public", the fax message read. The Maoists went further to accuse Panda of embezzlement of &#8216;donations&#8217; collected in the name of the CPI-Maoist and passing on the funds to help his close relatives. As a result, some of Panda&#8217;s relatives have come to amass huge fortunes, the party alleged. The Fax further warned Sabyasachi to refund the money collected in the name of the outfit or else be ready to face the same consequence that other &#8216;traitors&#8217; have faced. The Central Committee claimed to have received information about Panda&#8217;s plans to join the ruling Biju Janata Dal (BJD) party and contest elections. It also claimed that Sabyasachi, who is only a member of the State Organizational Committee of the Maoists, had made false claims of being the Secretary of the Committee as well as a member of the Central Committee. Bhaskar currently heads the Orissa unit of the outfit, intelligence sources indicated. Posters informing the public of Panda&#8217;s misdeeds were also found pasted in the headquarters town of Rayagada District, adjoining Kandhamal and Gajapati Districts.
> 
> Sabyasachi Panda had joined the Naxalite movement in 1991 and is credited with rejuvenating its activities in Orissa by 1996. He had formed the Kui Labanga Sangha to spread Maoist activities among the Kui tribals. Panda had gained notoriety for masterminding the Nayagarh armory raid in February 15, 2008. His involvement in the June 29, 2008, attack on the elite anti-Maoist Greyhounds personnel in the Chitrakonda reservoir was also strongly suspected. More than 20 cases of murder, extortion and dacoity are currently registered against Panda. The son of the late Ramesh Panda, a former three-time Member of the Legislative Assembly (MLA) of the Communist Party of India-Marxist (CPI-M), who had later joined the BJD and was acting as the Nayagarh District President of the Party till his death in 2003, Sabyasachi Panda is also alleged to have links with several influential persons in the State&#8217;s power centres. Sabyasachi Panda&#8217;s mother-in-law is also a member of the BJD.
> 
> While Panda had been a source of significant strength for the CPI-Maoist in the past, his autocratic and corrupt ways of functioning are said to have led to at least three of his close associates &#8211; Abraham Gamang, Buddha Gamang and Hitringa Majhi &#8211; parting ways with the group. The trio now runs the Loka Sangrama Mancha (People&#8217;s Revolution Front), a non-violent group working for the removal of backwardness and poverty.
> 
> Intelligence sources informed SAIR that Sabyasachi&#8217;s expulsion also had to do with his refusal to be transferred out of Orissa, a policy that the CPI-Maoist follows to prevent cadres and leaders from developing vested interests in one area of operation. Towards the middle of 2008, Sabyasachi had been asked to move to the Telengana region of Andhra Pradesh by the CPI-Maoist Central Committee, a move that he chose to resist. Sources also indicated that it was Panda who provided the Police with the tip-off that led to the arrest of two officials of the Gandhi Institute of Engineering and Technology at Gunupur in Rayagada District on December 29, 2008, and the recovery of INR 1.2 million from them. The two officials were going to make a &#8216;donation&#8217; to the Maoists. There are also references to an internal power struggle within the CPI-Maoist. Sabyasachi&#8217;s recent moves are said to have been propelled by Orissa&#8217;s non-representation in the 14-member CPI-Maoist Central Committee, which is dominated by nine leaders from Andhra Pradesh.
> 
> There is significant evidence that suggests that the Maoists have undergone a split in Orissa, and that Panda&#8217;s &#8216;expulsion&#8217; is an attempt by the outfit to camouflage the consequent weakness that has temporarily set in, in its Orissa State unit. It remains to be seen whether the rebels&#8217; vulnerabilities will persist, or whether the State&#8217;s enforcement agencies possess the capacities to take advantage of this transient infirmity to inflict further damage on the Maoists.






Joe Shearer said:


> Are we supposed to accept these Nanavati Commissions as the truth?



Joe, please read. We are not talking about Nanavati. We are talking about Orissa, about the official inquiry into the Orissa violence, conducted by Justice S.C. Mahapatra, under a state government hostile to the BJP. Here is the report again - *Conversion, reconversion led to Kandhamal riots: Commission - The Times of India*


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## KS

Rig Vedic said:


> It is not surprising to see Joe trying to justify the slaughter of Indics. The elderly monk had been targeted by violent converts on many previous occasions. Here is a report written by an expert on Maoist terrorism:



Actually this is getting funny --- Joe defending the Evangelists who are world renowed proselytisers and self-declared 'soul-harvesters' and attacks the VHP calling them violent proselytisers.

'Pot calling the kettle black'.

Perhaps the neutral stance changes when it comes to one's own faith.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*'Kashmir genocide like Bosnia'​*
Published: December 09, 2010 

WASHINGTON (Agencies)  WikiLeaks revealed that a cable sent from a US Mission in India termed former Indian Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor an incompetent combat leader and rather a geek. His war doctrine, suggesting eliminating China and Pakistan in a simultaneous war front was termed much far from reality. 

Another cable indicates that Gen Kapoor was dubbed as a General who was least bothered about security challenges to the country but was more concerned about making personal assets and strengthening his own cult in the army. The cable also suggested that a tug of war between Kapoor and the current Indian Army Chief had divided the Indian army into two groups. Yet another cable suggested that the current Army Chief of Indian General VK Singh was having an aggressive approach and believes that offence is the best defence. General Singh has also been described as Pakistan, China centric, with an added aggression towards China. 

The cable mentioned General Singh as an egotist, self-obsessed, petulant and idiosyncratic General, a braggadocio and a show-off, who has been disliked (and barely tolerated) by all his subordinates. An earlier cable described Indian Army in gross human rights violations in Indian Held part of Jammu and Kashmir while some Lt-Gen HS Panag, the then GOC-in-Chief of the Northern Command of the Indian Army was equated with General Milosevic of Bosnia with regard to butchering Muslims through war crimes. 

The cable urged Washington to secretly divert UN attention towards the genocide of innocent civilians in Held Kashmir on the hands of Indian Army and also suggested that US should avoid holding any joint drill with Indian army until it stops inhuman activities in Kashmir. The cable termed one Lt-Col AK Mathur as Devils Advocate at Srinagar.

'Kashmir genocide like Bosnia' | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## justanobserver

Pakistani media publish fake WikiLeaks cables attacking India

guardian.co.uk, Thursday 9 December 2010 16.29 GMT 

They read like the most extraordinary revelations. Citing the WikiLeaks cables, major Pakistani newspapers this morning carried stories that purported to detail eye-popping American assessments of India's military and civilian leaders.

According to the reports, US diplomats described senior Indian generals as vain, egotistical and genocidal; they said India's government is secretly allied with Hindu fundamentalists; and they claimed Indian spies are covertly supporting Islamist militants in Pakistan's tribal belt and Balochistan.

"Enough evidence of Indian involvement in Waziristan, Balochistan," read the front-page story in the News; an almost identical story appeared in the Urdu-language Jang, Pakistan's bestselling daily.

If accurate, the disclosures would confirm the worst fears of Pakistani nationalist hawks and threaten relations between Washington and New Delhi. But they are not accurate.

*An extensive search of the WikiLeaks database by the Guardian by date, name and keyword failed to locate any of the incendiary allegations. It suggests this is the first case of WikiLeaks being exploited for propaganda purposes.*

The controversial claims, published in four Pakistani national papers, were credited to the Online Agency, an Islamabad-based news service that has frequently run pro-army stories in the past. No journalist is bylined.

Shaheen Sehbai, group editor at the News, described the story as "agencies' copy" and said he would investigate its origins.

The incident fits in with the wider Pakistani reaction to WikiLeaks since the first cables emerged.

In the west, reports have focused on US worries for the safety of Pakistan's nuclear stockpile, or the army's support for Islamist militants such as the Afghan Taliban and Lashkar-e-Taiba, the group blamed for the Mumbai attack.

But Pakistan's media has given a wide berth to stories casting the military in a negative light, focusing instead on the foibles of the country's notoriously weak politicians.

Editors have pushed stories that focus on president Asif Ali Zardari's preoccupation with his death, prime minister Yousaf Raza Gilani's secret support for CIA drone strikes and tales of a bearded religious firebrand cosying up to the US ambassador.

Among ordinary citizens, the coverage has hardened perceptions that Pakistani leaders are in thrall to American power.

*Pakistan has become "the world's biggest banana republic", wrote retired diplomat Asif Ezdi last week.* 

Military and political leaders, portrayed as dangerously divided in the cables, have banded together to downplay the assessment.

"Don't trust WikiLeaks," Gilani told reporters in Kabul last weekend. Beside him president Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan, also tarred in the dispatches, nodded solemnly.

On Saturday the army, having stayed silent all week, denied claims that army chief General Ashfaq Kayani "distrusted" the opposition leader Nawaz Sharif. Kayani "holds all political leaders in esteem", a spokesman said.

Meanwhile conspiracy theorists, including some journalists, insist Washington secretly leaked the cables in an effort to discredit the Muslim world; the Saudi ambassador described them as propaganda.

But senior judges favour their publication. Dismissing an attempt to block WikiLeaks last week, justice Sheikh Azmat Saeed said the cables "may cause trouble for some personalities" but would be "good for the progress of the nation in the long run".

The lopsided media coverage highlights the strong influence of Pakistan's army over an otherwise vigorous free press.

This morning's stories disparaging Indian generals  one is said to be "rather a geek", another to be responsible for "genocide" and compared to Slobodan Milosevic  is counterbalanced by accounts of gushing American praise for Pakistan's top generals.

The actual WikiLeaks cables carry a more nuanced portraits of a close, if often uneasy, relationship between the US and Pakistan's military.

But the real cables do contain allegations of Indian support for Baloch separatists, largely sourced to British intelligence assessments.

Pakistan's press is generally cautious in reporting about its own army. But some internet commentators said the latest WikiLeaks story was a bridge too far.

Noting that the story was bylined to "agencies"  a term that in Pakistan means both a news agency and a spy outfit  the blogger Cafe Pyala asked: "How stupid do the 'Agencies' really think Pakistanis are?"

Pakistani media publish fake WikiLeaks cables attacking India | World news | The Guardian

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Subramanian

Bang Galore said:


> Not at all. Jashwant Singh was a former army officer & the RSS did their best to prevent him from getting a ministry portfolio in 1998. Yashwanth Sinha was a former IAS officer who joined the Janata party & was with Chandrashekhar as FM in 1991. Arun Shourie is no one's man but his own.
> 
> 
> 
> Then what did you mean by this.



BJP has its own votebank,people who are devout hindus and dont like minority appeasement and stupid left leaning nature of the central government.Those guys wean away when the BJP starts behaving like the congress.

But their votes alone is not enough for the BJP,there are lot of neutral voters who decide whom to vote for just one day before the election,they decide who wins and who doesn't.


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## KS

Joe Shearer said:


> Try not to act the innocent. By showing that the same nexus between politician and policeman that was active in those parts, fomented largely by Yedyurappa, continues today. The same protection that was extended to Muthalik then continues today.



Again you have nothing to say except some accusations based on a vague cause and effect theory. Nothing except proof cuts ice with me.

And further the cases registered against him were in the time period 2000-2008.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Bangalore/Mutaliks_long_history_of_running_riot/articleshow/4044044.cms

Till 2006 Jan it was the Congress that was in power in Karnataka and not the fascist BJP. So what stopped the Congress in arresting him ??



Joe Shearer said:


> No, that comment was typical of the mindset of the BJP and its supporters.



Mis-conceptions and more misconceptions.



Joe Shearer said:


> Nobody was talking about AK 47s and nobody was talking of shooting anybody. This is not Gujarat; this is not an encounter.



Encounters happen in *every* single state in India. Yeah but I understand your special desire to bring Gujarat in. 



Joe Shearer said:


> All they needed to do was to allow cases against him to move forward, instead of stone-walling them. All they needed to do was to observe the rule of law, rather than allowing it to be broken.



How do you know it was BJP that is stone walling the procedure.? Again this is the third time I am asking you - How are you dead sure he hasnt got an anticipatory bail ?

And as I previously said if anyone is to be blamed ,blame the Congress first not the BJP.



Joe Shearer said:


> It is also noteworthy that the BJP spends huge amounts of time figuring how to get things done the perverted way, and hardly ever spends time doing things constitutionally.



yeah yeah whatever floats your boat.




Joe Shearer said:


> I think that everything that has been said has registered with those who wish to learn more and did not have the facts, and I shall continue to give these facts the widest publicity.
> 
> Let me remind you of a parallel: when from the Indian side, it was first suggested that 26/11 was a Pakistani -based incident, there was a tidal wave of outrage. Subsequently, stage by stage, more and more evidence has come out, and stage by stage, corresponding to that, the defence against our repeated statements has changed. Further, stage by stage, as things became clearer, there was apparent administrative and judicial action taken, all of which meandered away into the sands of judicial and administrative inaction.
> 
> Do you see the parallel? You are so full of admiration and defence for the Sangh today, as the links to Muthalik and Purohit become clearer, as they have already become clearer in identical fashion to Amit Shah, as they have already always been clear with respect to Baba Bajrangi, what will your defence be?



Lol you still have not got the gist of my defence - Pramod Muthalilk was not a Sangh Pracharak when he commited his crime. He was expelled from the party roughly 4 years ago.

I have no beef with you if you name the Sri Ram Sene as a culprit.But you tried to falsely implicate the RSS with the crimes of Pramod Muthalik and therein lies my objections.





Joe Shearer said:


> Is that supposed to be a parallel? Is the world of business and misdemeanours, including lapses in business etiquette identical to crimes committed under the constitution?
> 
> If you are saying that the firm fired an employee for acting in a criminal or in a justiciable manner, without taking appropriate action against him in reporting him to the police, or in taking judicial action against him, on the other hand, then the firm is certainly at fault.



Please dont try these specious arguments on me.I am the least amused. 

Your analogy and your grouse against the RSS holds ground only if Pramod Muthalik *was* a RSS pracharak at the time of his commiting the Pub incident.But he was *NOT*. At that time it was about 4 years after he had been expelled from the Sangh.

What is so difficult for you to understand here ?


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## bandmaster

justanobserver said:


> Pakistani media publish fake WikiLeaks cables attacking India
> 
> guardian.co.uk, Thursday 9 December 2010 16.29 GMT
> 
> They read like the most extraordinary revelations. Citing the WikiLeaks cables, major Pakistani newspapers this morning carried stories that purported to detail eye-popping American assessments of India's military and civilian leaders.
> 
> According to the reports, US diplomats described senior Indian generals as vain, egotistical and genocidal; they said India's government is secretly allied with Hindu fundamentalists; and they claimed Indian spies are covertly supporting Islamist militants in Pakistan's tribal belt and Balochistan.
> 
> "Enough evidence of Indian involvement in Waziristan, Balochistan," read the front-page story in the News; an almost identical story appeared in the Urdu-language Jang, Pakistan's bestselling daily.
> 
> If accurate, the disclosures would confirm the worst fears of Pakistani nationalist hawks and threaten relations between Washington and New Delhi. But they are not accurate.
> 
> *An extensive search of the WikiLeaks database by the Guardian by date, name and keyword failed to locate any of the incendiary allegations. It suggests this is the first case of WikiLeaks being exploited for propaganda purposes.*
> 
> The controversial claims, published in four Pakistani national papers, were credited to the Online Agency, an Islamabad-based news service that has frequently run pro-army stories in the past. No journalist is bylined.
> 
> Shaheen Sehbai, group editor at the News, described the story as "agencies' copy" and said he would investigate its origins.
> 
> The incident fits in with the wider Pakistani reaction to WikiLeaks since the first cables emerged.
> 
> In the west, reports have focused on US worries for the safety of Pakistan's nuclear stockpile, or the army's support for Islamist militants such as the Afghan Taliban and Lashkar-e-Taiba, the group blamed for the Mumbai attack.
> 
> But Pakistan's media has given a wide berth to stories casting the military in a negative light, focusing instead on the foibles of the country's notoriously weak politicians.
> 
> Editors have pushed stories that focus on president Asif Ali Zardari's preoccupation with his death, prime minister Yousaf Raza Gilani's secret support for CIA drone strikes and tales of a bearded religious firebrand cosying up to the US ambassador.
> 
> Among ordinary citizens, the coverage has hardened perceptions that Pakistani leaders are in thrall to American power.
> 
> *Pakistan has become "the world's biggest banana republic", wrote retired diplomat Asif Ezdi last week.*
> 
> Military and political leaders, portrayed as dangerously divided in the cables, have banded together to downplay the assessment.
> 
> "Don't trust WikiLeaks," Gilani told reporters in Kabul last weekend. Beside him president Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan, also tarred in the dispatches, nodded solemnly.
> 
> On Saturday the army, having stayed silent all week, denied claims that army chief General Ashfaq Kayani "distrusted" the opposition leader Nawaz Sharif. Kayani "holds all political leaders in esteem", a spokesman said.
> 
> Meanwhile conspiracy theorists, including some journalists, insist Washington secretly leaked the cables in an effort to discredit the Muslim world; the Saudi ambassador described them as propaganda.
> 
> But senior judges favour their publication. Dismissing an attempt to block WikiLeaks last week, justice Sheikh Azmat Saeed said the cables "may cause trouble for some personalities" but would be "good for the progress of the nation in the long run".
> 
> The lopsided media coverage highlights the strong influence of Pakistan's army over an otherwise vigorous free press.
> 
> This morning's stories disparaging Indian generals  one is said to be "rather a geek", another to be responsible for "genocide" and compared to Slobodan Milosevic  is counterbalanced by accounts of gushing American praise for Pakistan's top generals.
> 
> The actual WikiLeaks cables carry a more nuanced portraits of a close, if often uneasy, relationship between the US and Pakistan's military.
> 
> But the real cables do contain allegations of Indian support for Baloch separatists, largely sourced to British intelligence assessments.
> 
> Pakistan's press is generally cautious in reporting about its own army. But some internet commentators said the latest WikiLeaks story was a bridge too far.
> 
> Noting that the story was bylined to "agencies"  a term that in Pakistan means both a news agency and a spy outfit  the blogger Cafe Pyala asked: *"How stupid do the 'Agencies' really think Pakistanis are?"*
> 
> Pakistani media publish fake WikiLeaks cables attacking India | World news | The Guardian



Cafe Pyala should take a look at the number of re-posts in PakDef to get an answer. The 'agencies' seem to understand their audience better than him.


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## abrahams

repost... and fake with no original leaks provided... 

however... considering these kind of posts... i wish it was true...


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## Bang Galore

Karthic Sri said:


> 1) *I will repeat what I said to Joe* - Unlike the Jihadi organisations that claim responsibility for whatever activity that takes place, no Hindu organisation took resposibility for Malegaon.They are still accused and not proved of their crime. So shall we hold our horses ?



You should not be repeating this rubbish. No one has made an actual claim for terrorist incidents except for those attributed to IM. That doesn't stop us from holding to account, the LeT,JuD,JeM , does it? Without prejudging the Malegaon issue, it can still be said that the BJP should not have defended people accused of terrorism against Indian nationals before they were declared innocent by a court of law.



> 2) The second point is a cyclic logic. You can say the same about Hindu rightwing orgs while I can parrot it for jihadi orgs. And FYI this is the exact same logic the Hindu Rightwing orgs give for any of their transgressions and rightly so considering the soft corner the political parties have for minorities. This double standard has gone to such ridiculous levels that PDP (Kerala) whose activists and leader were convicted of serial bomb blasts in my city is termed secular while RSS is blamed as communal. We today have an Asimuddin Owaisi of a blatantly communal party ,MIM give lectures on secularism.



Agree with the above. Condemn it. I am consistent, you should be too. Doesn't make the Hindu right wing organisations any more correct if they use the same excuses that they hold up as untenable when used by others.


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## Rig Vedic

Bang Galore said:


> it can still be said that the BJP should not have defended people accused of terrorism against Indian nationals before they were declared innocent by a court of law.



Depends. A mere accusation by someone against somebody doesn't mean that nobody should defend them.


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## Rig Vedic

Look at this story about Christian youths who damaged a Christian Church, hoping to incite hatred against Hindus. Should not such Goebbelsian propaganda be treated as terrorism. It's certainly a hate crime, at any rate. It's important to find out who was behind these youths.



> *Mangalore - Seven Arrested for Damaging Church Property*
> 
> Daijiworld Media Network - Mangalore (SP)
> 
> Mangalore, Mar 19: In connection with indulging in rampage in a banana plantation belonging to Babbukatte Nityadhar Church and trying to disrupt peace in the region, Ullal policemen arrested seven persons on Wednesday March 18.
> 
> They are Jayson Verghese (23), Vijit Sunny Rozario (21), Araki Alfred (20), Roshan Cutinho (26), all from Nityadhar Nagar and Ronald Roshan (22), a resident of Kuttar Prakash Nagar. They were produced in the court on Wednesday.
> 
> *On Monday morning, the banana plantation was found to have been damaged heavily to look as if people belonging to a particular community had barged into the plantation, and a saffron flag had been planted there, signifying that Hindu outfits had been involved with the destruction. The incident took place at a time when Hindu Samajotsav was being organized in the city.*
> 
> *The policemen said that during interrogation, the arrested persons revealed, they wanted to disturb the peace in the region by projecting the incident as a handiwork of a particular community.*
> 
> Banana Plantation that was damaged
> 
> While making inquiries about those who inflicted the above damage, the policemen could by chance, lay their hands on the two accused, who had burnt down a motor bike on November 30 near Pandit House. Joy D'Souza (20) and Calvin Johnson D'Souza, from Nityadhar Nagar, accused of this act, were arrested and produced in the court on Wednesday. The policemen are also looking at the possibility of these two having been also involved with the destruction of the banana plantation.
> 
> Under the guidance of the city rural inspector Lingappa Poojary, Ullal sub-inspector of police Shivprakash has been conducting investigation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mangalore: Weeds within - Seven Arrested for Damaging Church Property




This is by no means an isolated incident. There are many who have made a successful career out of inciting hatred against Hindus.

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## SpArK

*Contours of solution for J&K soon*​




NEW DELHI: As the group of interlocutors is set to begin its third visit to J&K from December 17, Union home minister P Chidambaram on Thursday said contours of a political solution to the Kashmir problem were expected to emerge in the next few months. 

Addressing a meeting here of the Parliamentary Consultative Committee, Chidambaram said the first and second reports of the group of interlocutors for J&K dealt with confidence-building measures and added that he had now asked the group to focus on finding the contours of a political solution.

Read more: 'Contours of solution for J&K soon' - The Times of India 'Contours of solution for J&K soon' - The Times of India


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## Gene

what could be the possible political solution???


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## Bang Galore

Rig Vedic said:


> Depends. A mere accusation by someone against somebody doesn't mean that nobody should defend them.



Maybe but not from a party that claims that it takes a hardline against terror. Don't see them doing that when the accused belong to a different religion.


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## Rig Vedic

Bang Galore said:


> Maybe but not from a party that claims that it takes a hardline against terror. Don't see them doing that when the accused belong to a different religion.



What stand a person or party should take ought to depend on the credibility of the allegations. Which is very low in the case of Samjhauta allegations, for example.


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## Bang Galore

Rig Vedic said:


> What stand a person or party should take ought to depend on the credibility of the allegations. Which is very low in the case of Samjhauta allegations, for example.



Not so in the Malegaon case which formed the crux of my argument.


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## ajtr

1.involve All parties in talk including un and pak and aphc.
2.Complete Autonomy to complete Azadi.
3.withdrawl of forces.Let J&K take care of it own security.
4.If Jammu and laddak populations can be exchanged with india if they dont want to live in J&K.

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## Nalwa

ajtr said:


> 1.involve All parties in talk including un and pak and aphc.
> 2.Complete Autonomy to complete Azadi.
> 3.withdrawl of forces.Let J&K take care of it own security.
> 4.If Jammu and laddak populations can be exchanged with india if they dont want to live in J&K.



In your dreams.

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## StingRoy

@ajtr..No population exchanges will be done. It is their land as well. They have a right there as do the Kashmiris. 

The most likely solution that I see is that full autonomy would be given to the people of Kashmir valley. Internal security to be handled by specially trained Kashmiri police and borders controlled by IA.

Jammu and Ladakh regions would be combined to a state and will continue as before.

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## ajtr

dezi said:


> @ajtr..No population exchanges will be done. It is their land as well. They have a right there as do the Kashmiris.
> 
> The most likely solution that I see is that full autonomy would be given to the people of Kashmir valley. Internal security to be handled by specially trained Kashmiri police and borders controlled by IA.
> 
> Jammu and Ladakh regions would be combined to a state and will continue as before.


Its Their choice where ever they wana live.If in J&K then no one has problem with that too.Regarding security J&K will have to one point raise it own defence forces(Both JKA and JKAF) to guard its borders.Other countries army should not ve any role in J&K.


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## Bang Galore

ajtr said:


> 4.*If Jammu and laddak populations can be exchanged with india if they dont want to live in J&K.*



The natural corollary to that would be a exchange with Pakistan/Pakistan Kashmir those who don't wish to live in Indian Kashmir.

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## Rig Vedic

Bang Galore said:


> Not so in the Malegaon case which formed the crux of my argument.



Maybe, maybe not ... I have not sifted through the arguments and counter-arguments in that particular case. The prosecution suffered a loss of credibility by attempting to bring in Samjhauta. In any case, I am not a supporter of any particular party, nor do I speak for any.


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## GUNS-N- ROSES

ajtr said:


> 1.involve All parties in talk including un and pak and aphc.
> 2.Complete Autonomy to complete Azadi.
> 3.withdrawl of forces.Let J&K take care of it own security.
> 4.If Jammu and laddak populations can be exchanged with india if they dont want to live in J&K.



not at all a practical solution. the practical solution would be 

1. converting Loc into permanent border.
2. demilitarisation of J&K.
3. enhanced autonomy to J&K.
4. enhanced economic copperation between POKand IHK.
5. better economic package and job opportunities to people of J&K.


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## StingRoy

ajtr said:


> Its Their choice where ever they wana live.If in J&K then no one has problem with that too.Regarding security J&K will have to one point raise it own defence forces(Both JKA and JKAF) to guard its borders.Other countries army should not ve any role in J&K.



I am not even talking about JKA and JKAF...autonomous region does not mean they can have their own armed forces... only internal security forces at the most. Territorially they are still a part of India.

Have a look at the autonomous regions inside India, and if they do something for the Kashmiris, it will be in similar lines. 
Autonomous regions of India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## ajtr

Bang Galore said:


> The natural corollary to that would be a exchange with Pakistan/Pakistan Kashmir those who don't wish to live in Indian Kashmir.


Actual corollary is J&K as free country consist of all parts occupied by all its neighboring countries to the based on the pre 1947 exisited boundaries of the the kingdom of Jammu and kashmir.....


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## Fireurimagination

Well if somebody is expecting concessions of territory, negotiations outside Indian constitution or Autonomy on the likes of we will use our own flag, all I want to say is please don't hold your breathe


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## ajtr

dezi said:


> I am not even talking about JKA and JKAF...autonomous region does not mean they can have their own armed forces... only internal security forces at the most. Territorially they are still a part of India.
> 
> Have a look at the autonomous regions inside India, and if they do something for the Kashmiris, it will be in similar lines.
> Autonomous regions of India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


And i'm not talking about autonomous region with in indian constitution i'm talking about Free sovereign country of Jammu and Kashmir which has its own constitution and which is member of UNO and various international organisations like any other member countries.

You can check the definition of free country here...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_country_(politics)

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## StingRoy

ajtr said:


> Actual corollary is J&K as free country consist of all parts occupied by all its neighboring countries to the based on the pre 1947 exisited boundaries of the the kingdom of Jammu and kashmir.....



All those historical kingdom things are bull$hit at this point... If we go by that logic, we will still be fighting about what all is included in the JnK area. 

Today's realities are totally different and the solution has to be based upon them and the people whose lives are being affected.


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## Bang Galore

ajtr said:


> Actual corollary is J&K as free country consist of all parts occupied by all its neighboring countries to the based on the pre 1947 exisited boundaries of the the kingdom of Jammu and kashmir.....



If that be your argument, you should have stuck to that rather than making a disingenuous offer of population transfer of primarily Buddhist & Hindu areas. That opens up the argument to the natural corollary that i have put forward. My point stands.

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## ajtr

Fireurimagination said:


> Well if somebody is expecting concessions of territory, negotiations outside Indian constitution or Autonomy on the likes of we will use our own flag, all I want to say is please don't hold your breathe


Well why not?Didnt indian,pakistanis expected the same territorial negotiations outside british raj while they still using british flag.


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## StingRoy

ajtr said:


> And i'm not talking about autonomous region with in indian constitution i'm talking about Free sovereign country of Jammu and Kashmir which has its own constitution and which is member of UNO and various international organisations like any other member countries.
> 
> You can check the definition of free country here...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_country_(politics)



Thanks but NO thanks for the link.
Keep dreaming ... not going to happen without a war ... and we all know how it has been in the past. We have already discussed at length in this forum on full independence and I don't want to get into that discussion all over again.


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## Fireurimagination

ajtr said:


> Well why not?Didnt indian,pakistanis expected the same territorial negotiations outside british raj while they still using british flag.



Well I am not interested in what you want, I am commenting about what Chidambram meant when he said "Contours of solution for J&K soon" and if you believe he will be offering Azadi to Kashmir the all I can do is


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## ajtr

dezi said:


> All those historical kingdom things are bull$hit at this point... If we go by that logic, we will still be fighting about what all is included in the JnK area.
> 
> Today's realities are totally different and the solution has to be based upon them and the people whose lives are being affected.


If realities would ve blurred over 6 decades of J&K sstruggle then india wouldnt ve been struck over there in same situation as it was when it first stepped onto J&K soil.

If realities would ve been blurred then india would not ve been negotiating for the contours of the solution for J&K whom it considers as integral part.

Sorry to say its india who is stuck in time wrap not J&K.


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## ajtr

Bang Galore said:


> If that be your argument, you should have stuck to that rather than making a disingenuous offer of population transfer of primarily Buddhist & Hindu areas. That opens up the argument to the natural corollary that i have put forward. My point stands.



you ve put forward transferring population of kashmir valley to P-O-K.But when there is independent united J&K then there is no question arises of kashmir valley question that is to be answered is that are Jammu and Laddak people wish to live in united country of J&K.if yes then most welcome.its there wish if they wish to move over to india.


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## ajtr

dezi said:


> Thanks but NO thanks for the link.
> Keep dreaming ... not going to happen without a war ... and we all know how it has been in the past. We have already discussed at length in this forum on full independence and I don't want to get into that discussion all over again.


If India is ready to commit genocide of 10 millions then so be it.but india wont get J&K without bloodshed.


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## KS

GUNS-N- ROSES said:


> not at all a practical solution. the practical solution would be
> 
> 1. converting Loc into permanent border.



Agreed !



GUNS-N- ROSES said:


> 2. demilitarisation of J&K



Not complete and immediate de-militarisation. As a gradual process and ultimately only the BSF should be in the borders.



GUNS-N- ROSES said:


> 3. enhanced autonomy to J&K.



Autonomy within the ambits of the Indian constitution whereby Currency,External Trade,Foreign Affairs and Defence are managed by India. Rest they can take care of themselves.



GUNS-N- ROSES said:


> 4. enhanced economic copperation between POKand IHK.



Unfortunately I dont agree --- Until and unless pakistan too commits itself and agrees J&K to be a part of India this should not happen.Even then I am sceptic about this point and free travel across LoC as it may facilitate rogue elements also.



GUNS-N- ROSES said:


> 5. better economic package and job opportunities to people of J&K.



Only way is to encourage private investment there. Once a Tata or a reliance or a Birla sets shop there, I dont think there is any turning back.

But there are two important point :


All this should be considered only after the Pandits who were forced out of their homes are allowed to re-settle and are guarenteed their safety.

And I dont think the people of Jammu and Ladakh want to be treated specially.They want to be Indian citizens and so the autonomy can be granted to the Valley alone.

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## StingRoy

ajtr said:


> If realities would ve blurred over 6 decades of J&K sstruggle then india wouldnt ve been struck over there in same situation as it was when it first stepped onto J&K soil.
> If realities would ve been blurred then india would not ve been negotiating for the contours of the solution for J&K whom it considers as integral part.
> Sorry to say its india who is stuck in time wrap not J&K.



Go refresh your history on who stepped into JnK soil first and therefore created this problem at the first place. Kashmir was just fine till external forces started fomenting problems in the area... It was a downhill slide after then because of the heavy military presence. 
Think what caused the heavy military presence in the region at the first place. I don't know how old you are, but I remember Kashmir was jannat in 70s and 80s till militancy crept in and then followed by Kargil incident.


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## ajtr

Fireurimagination said:


> Well I am not interested in what you want, I am commenting about what Chidambram meant when he said "Contours of solution for J&K soon" and if you believe he will be offering Azadi to Kashmir the all I can do is


Well if indian govt is being forced to negotiate contours of solution over J&K then it will sure be forced for azadi to it just the matter of time.


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## KS

ajtr said:


> you ve put forward transferring population of kashmir valley to P-O-K.But when there is independent united J&K then there is no question arises of kashmir valley question that is to be answered is that are Jammu and Laddak people wish to live in united country of J&K.if yes then most welcome.*its there wish if they wish to move over to india.*



Says who ??

Did you just forget "WE" still control Kashmir and if anybody(Kashmiri Muslims) is unsatisfied they very well know where the door is.



ajtr said:


> If India is ready to commit genocide of 10 millions then so be it.but india wont get J&K without bloodshed.



I pity you since you seem not to know that we have already got J&K.


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## ajtr

dezi said:


> Go refresh your history on who stepped into JnK soil first and therefore created this problem at the first place. Kashmir was just fine till external forces started fomenting problems in the area... It was a downhill slide after then because of the heavy military presence.
> Think what caused the heavy military presence in the region at the first place. I don't know how old you are, but I remember Kashmir was jannat in 70s and 80s till militancy crept in and then followed by Kargil incident.


you ve gone there on the invitation of J&K ruler not its people.


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## twoplustwoisfour

Karthic Sri said:


> Only way is to encourage private investment there. Once a Tata or a reliance or a Birla sets shop there, I dont think there is any turning back.



Interesting. Does the central govt. give any subsidies/tax exemptions etc. to companies who do business in J&K??


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## StingRoy

ajtr said:


> you ve gone there on the invitation of J&K ruler not its people.



And what triggered the ruler to ask India for help?


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## twoplustwoisfour

ajtr said:


> you ve gone there on the invitation of J&K ruler not its people.



The J&K ruler was, at that time, the recognised leader of the people.

Which Geelani still is not. Neither is the hurriyat might I add.


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## Fireurimagination

ajtr said:


> If India is ready to commit genocide of 10 millions then so be it.but india wont get J&K without bloodshed.





ajtr said:


> Well if indian govt is being forced to negotiate contours of solution over J&K then it will sure be forced for azadi to it just the matter of time.



Well the last time I checked Kashmir has been a part of Indian union since the last 60+ years

Indian Government is working on an internal problem but if you think any Indian Government will be forced to offer azadi and that is a matter of time all I can say is keep on dreaming or better still grow some balls, wage a war and take it from us


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## KS

twoplustwoisfour said:


> Interesting. Does the central govt. give any subsidies/tax exemptions etc. to companies who do business in J&K??



I am not sure whether the Govt gives subsidyto private companies or not, but it sure gives subsidies running into thousands of crores annually to the J&K Govt.


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## twoplustwoisfour

Karthic Sri said:


> I am not sure whether the Govt gives subsidyto private companies or not, but it sure gives subsidies running into thousands of crores annually to the J&K Govt.



We all know how efficiently that money is used. It'll be better to give subsidies to private sector instead in the form of SEZs etc.


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## ajtr

Karthic Sri said:


> Says who ??
> 
> Did you just forget "WE" still control Kashmir and if anybody(Kashmiri Muslims) is unsatisfied they very well know where the door is.


And soon gonna kicked out too.And door has already been shown to u.





> I pity you since you seem not to know that we have already got J&K.


Nah dont pity me.pity urself.An aspiring global superpower ,shining india, and claimant to UNSC has been bought to its knees just by bunch of stone throwing kids.No,u never had control over J&K.u are juggling with it like a hot potato for 63 yrs.


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## ajtr

dezi said:


> And what triggered the ruler to ask India for help?


his personal phobia and y should J&K people suffer for one person's phobia.


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## twoplustwoisfour

ajtr said:


> Nah dont pity me.pity urself.An aspiring global superpower ,shining india, and claimant to UNSC has been bought to its knees just by bunch of stone throwing kids.No,u never had control over J&K.u are juggling with it like a hot potato for 63 yrs.



The bitterness of your tone would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

You know what, I'll still laugh.


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## ajtr

twoplustwoisfour said:


> The J&K ruler was, at that time, the recognised leader of the people.
> 
> Which Geelani still is not. Neither is the hurriyat might I add.


no he was british appointed monarch like any other princely state.Now people of J&K their own leader. they dont need any gelanis they are fighting thier own pitched battle with indian forces.APHC has been indian stooge.


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## StingRoy

twoplustwoisfour said:


> Interesting. Does the central govt. give any subsidies/tax exemptions etc. to companies who do business in J&K??



I don't think there are special subsidies for companies to setup shop in JnK, but sure as hell there is a lot of incentive for the local people to start a business on their own. Remember that non-Kashmiris are not allowed to buy land, so setting up an industry has to be done with local partnership or on a lease basis.


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## Ghoster

ajtr said:


> And soon gonna kicked out too.And door has already been shown to u.



keep dreaming........




ajtr said:


> Nah dont pity me.pity urself.An aspiring global superpower ,shining india, and claimant to UNSC has been bought to its knees just by bunch of stone throwing kids.No,u never had control over J&K.u are juggling with it like a hot potato for 63 yrs.


i think ajtr is sania mirza ......
might be showing the new found love for pakistan


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## ajtr

Fireurimagination said:


> Well the last time I checked Kashmir has been a part of Indian union since the last 60+ years
> 
> Indian Government is working on an internal problem but if you think any Indian Government will be forced to offer azadi and that is a matter of time all I can say is keep on dreaming or better still grow some balls, wage a war and take it from us


Well its just the matter of time....


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## abrahams

if things get out of hand.. india should just do another balochistan or another jaffna... and take the cake from there... india is too soft... though a minority .. i wish bjp comes to power... solves this ridicule off.. .


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## ajtr

twoplustwoisfour said:


> The bitterness of your tone would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
> 
> You know what, I'll still laugh.


Well that is wat laloo yadav says laughing at urself thats ur condition right now.


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## Fireurimagination

ajtr said:


> And soon gonna kicked out too.And door has already been shown to u.
> 
> 
> 
> Nah dont pity me.pity urself.An aspiring global superpower ,shining india, and claimant to UNSC has been bought to its knees just by bunch of stone throwing kids.No,u never had control over J&K.u are juggling with it like a hot potato for 63 yrs.



LOL haters of India has been praying for the same for the last 60+ years and guess what not an mm of land has gone nowhere (added Sikkim, AP ) so keep on hating while we keep on growing at 10%, Nobody was able be do anything when we were so vulnerable and now soon we will be  the world and all you can do is be jealous and hate


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## Fireurimagination

ajtr said:


> Well its just the matter of time....



matter of time, for what? wage a war and take it from us?


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## ajtr

abrahams said:


> if things get out of hand.. india should just do another balochistan or another jaffna... and take the cake from there... india is too soft... though a minority .. i wish bjp comes to power... solves this ridicule off.. .


Nah...india dare not commit that foolish step like bosnia....remember if india goes down genocidal route then it wont be genocide of kashmiris it will be genocide of india as a state itself.


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## twoplustwoisfour

dezi said:


> I don't think there are special subsidies for companies to setup shop in JnK, but sure as hell there is a lot of incentive for the local people to start a business on their own. Remember that non-Kashmiris are not allowed to buy land, so setting up an industry has to be done with local partnership or on a lease basis.



Most businesses in India are run on leased land, so that shouldn't be a problem. Security might be a major problem but I don't foresee security issues outside a few muslim dominated areas. 

Setting up SEZs, allowing Indians to buy land within those SEZs, providing infrastructure linkages would go a long way in solving this mess.


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## Major Shaitan Singh

Guys

I belive Kashmir issue can be solved only when top politician from both country is called in Wagah Border and short

I belive Kashmir has not developed since 1960's except tourism

why can't Kashmir policy can be changed... and Invite corporate and Big industrial unit there....

I think ([Mod edit: Separatist] / Freedom fighter) never attacked industry did they ?

Why can't we open a cement factoies, Manufacturing unit, Industries.
I beilve kashmir is equally rich as Jharkand.... 

Mr Cheif Minister its time for work and not talk.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

ajtr said:


> Nah...india dare not commit that foolish step like bosnia....remember if india goes down genocidal route then it wont be genocide of kashmiris it will be genocide of india as a state itself.



We are not that foolish,If things really go bad(which i doubt)
We always have Xinjiang as our example.

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## ajtr

Fireurimagination said:


> LOL haters of India has been praying for the same for the last 60+ years and guess what not an mm of land has gone nowhere (added Sikkim, AP ) so keep on hating while we keep on growing at 10%, Nobody was able be do anything when we were so vulnerable and now soon we will be  the world and all you can do is be jealous and hate


Thats another amazing thing that u seems to look only one side of coin.If india has added sikkim /goa/AP then it has also lost askaichin and all along indo china border it lost land in form of P-O-K,NA.If you claim india as country that existed for 5000 yrs then you ve lost land in form of bangaladesh,afghanistan,pakistan.world to door ki baat u've been bought to ur knees just by kids.


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## abrahams

ajtr said:


> Nah...india dare not commit that foolish step like bosnia....remember if india goes down genocidal route then it wont be genocide of kashmiris it will be genocide of india as a state itself.



well your country tried it... and why cant we... and we should do it... there is no trouble in kashmir except for a few pakistani funded ppl... and if things gets out of hand... just shoot the leaders... like how it was done on mr.bugti... or mr prabhakaran... 

but b4 that.. .i hope your country progresses like another dubai or another singapore or hongkong...


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## ajtr

abrahams said:


> well your country tried it... and why cant we... and we should do it... there is no trouble in kashmir except for a few pakistani funded ppl... and if things gets out of hand... just shoot the leaders... like how it was done on mr.bugti... or mr prabhakaran...
> 
> but b4 that.. .i hope your country progresses like another dubai or another singapore or hongkong...






Bombensturm said:


> We are not that foolish,If things really go bad(which i doubt)
> We always have Xinjiang as our example.


Xinjiang turkic population wrt to chinese han population is just 3-4 &#37;.but remember indian muslim population is 15% of overall hindu population.


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## Fireurimagination

ajtr said:


> Thats another amazing thing that u seems to look only one side of coin.If india has added sikkim /goa/AP then it has also lost askaichin and all along indo china border it lost land in form of P-O-K,NA.If you claim india as country that existed for 5000 yrs then you ve lost land in form of bangaladesh,afghanistan,pakistan.world to door ki baat u've been bought to ur knees just by kids.



P-O-K etc never came under Indian control, we lost land to China in '62 but they gave it back  we have our territorial disputes with them and we solve the same like a matured countries but never has "Republic of Indian" forgone claim on it's land and it never will 

ps: according to Hindu mythology Ram was the king of the whole world thus I guess we have lost lots of territory


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

ajtr said:


> Xinjiang turkic population wrt to chinese han population is just 3-4 %.but remember indian muslim population is 15% of overall hindu population.



Not surprising! you see it as a Hindu-Muslim problem.

No one said we are going to change the demography by injecting Hindu population.


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## Infinity

ajtr said:


> you ve put forward transferring population of kashmir valley to P-O-K.But when there is independent united J&K then there is no question arises of kashmir valley question that is to be answered is that are Jammu and Laddak people wish to live in united country of J&K.if yes then most welcome.its there wish if they wish to move over to india.



Am not bothered whether you are Indian, American or Pakistani.
But Stop your wet dreams.


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## ajtr

Fireurimagination said:


> P-O-K etc never came under Indian control, we lost land to China in '62 but they gave it back  we have our territorial disputes with them and we solve the same like a matured countries but never has "Republic of Indian" forgone claim on it's land and it never will
> 
> ps: according to Hindu mythology Ram was the king of the whole world thus I guess we have lost lots of territory


So J& is not indian land than.if it is the askai chin remains.You were never given back any land it was just just Chinese withdrew from AP hence the claim to it remains as disputed as in case of J&K and soon both gonna be out of indian union.


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## ajtr

Infinity said:


> Am not bothered whether you are Indian, American or Pakistani.
> But Stop your wet dreams.


And u just stop ur wet indian dreams.


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## Devil Soul

Professor arrested for setting exam paper with questions on Kashmir unrest
PTI, Dec 10, 2010, 12.55pm IST
SRINAGAR: A lecturer of a government college was today arrested for allegedly setting a paper filled with questions related to the recent unrest in Valley. 

"Noor Mohammad Bhat, a lecturer at Gandhi Memorial College, has been arrested," IGP (Kashmir range) S M Sahai said. 

The students appearing in the English paper for BA, BSc and B Com annual examinations were surprised to find questions related to the five month unrest in Kashmir. 

"Are the stone-pelters the real heroes?" was one of the questions asked. 

The students were also asked to translate from Urdu to English, a paragraph laden with allegations of human rights violations by security forces. 

Investigations revealed that the question paper was set by Bhat, leading to his arrest.

Professor arrested for setting exam paper with questions on Kashmir unrest - The Times of India

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## Ganga

ajtr said:


> 1.involve All parties in talk including un and pak and aphc.
> 2.Complete Autonomy to complete Azadi.
> 3.withdrawl of forces.Let J&K take care of it own security.
> *4.If Jammu and laddak populations can be exchanged with india if they dont want to live in J&K.*



This is one of the most preposterous statements i have heard in a long time.What do u actually mean by exchange.Which population from India should be sent to Jammu and Ladhak in return? The people of Jammu and Ladhak have been living there for centuries and they are not moving anywhere.Just because thy are non Muslims it does not mean that they are not residents of that state.

The best solution is to give a limited amount of autonomy to the Kashmir region and make amendments in the AFSPA.That's all. The state of J&K was , is and will remain a part of the India


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## newman

ajtr said:


> Thats another amazing thing that u seems to look only one side of coin.If india has added sikkim /goa/AP then it has also lost askaichin and all along indo china border it lost land in form of P-O-K,NA.If you claim india as country that existed for 5000 yrs then you ve lost land in form of bangaladesh,afghanistan,pakistan.world to door ki baat u've been bought to ur knees just by kids.



It is not necessary to physically occupy an area to have influence & loyalty.. If you feel Kashmiris are falling over each other to join your country they would have all gone that way.. that option has been open ever since '47,, and yet the ones that have gone to the promised land live in ghettos outside Muzzafarabad.. Does anyone from Indian Kashmir occupy a high position in Pakistan Govt? Even if just for propaganda sake?

& it is sad that we are slowing because of rock throwing kids.. despite all the that we are a 9% economy, gate crashing the UNSC party, and have world's leaders queuing up for business here.. No one apart from China wants to even go to Pakistan after India which is like next door.. Why do you assume that Kashmiris will want to go wherever no one else does?


----------



## StingRoy

He being a govt employee should have realized before setting the papers. You can't be paid by the govt to go against it.


----------



## twoplustwoisfour

ajtr said:


> And u just stop ur wet *indian *dreams.



Further proof that you are faking your nationality.

You're not fooling anyone you know that right?


----------



## ajtr

Ganga said:


> This is one of the most preposterous statements i have heard in a long time.What do u actually mean by exchange.Which population from India should be sent to Jammu and Ladhak in return? The people of Jammu and Ladhak have been living there for centuries and they are not moving anywhere.Just because thy are non Muslims it does not mean that they are not residents of that state.
> 
> The best solution is to give a limited amount of autonomy to the Kashmir region and make amendments in the AFSPA.That's all. The state of J&K was , is and will remain a part of the India




Well you only read the preposterous statement but the whole civilized world has been seeing india's preposterous actions in the J&K for decades.


----------



## KS

ajtr said:


> And soon gonna kicked out too.And door has already been shown to u.



But we are not moving out. Now go cry a river gal !



ajtr said:


> Nah dont pity me.pity urself.An aspiring global superpower ,shining india, and claimant to UNSC has been bought to its knees just by *bunch of stone throwing kids*.No,u never had control over J&K.u are juggling with it like a hot potato for 63 yrs.



The bunch of stone throwing kids have already been shown their place either in Sri Nagar jail or in --------

Actually we Indians like Aloo and we are not gonna give it to anyone.


----------



## dabong1

no need to hold your breath.........the "solution" is actually change nothing but say you have a "solution" and hope everything will be okay.


----------



## ajtr

newman said:


> It is not necessary to physically occupy an area to have influence & loyalty.. If you feel Kashmiris are falling over each other to join your country they would have all gone that way.. that option has been open ever since '47,, and yet the ones that have gone to the promised land live in ghettos outside Muzzafarabad.. Does anyone from Indian Kashmir occupy a high position in Pakistan Govt? Even if just for propaganda sake?
> 
> & it is sad that we are slowing because of rock throwing kids.. despite all the that we are a 9% economy, gate crashing the UNSC party, and have world's leaders queuing up for business here.. No one apart from China wants to even go to Pakistan after India which is like next door.. Why do you assume that Kashmiris will want to go wherever no one else does?



here im speaking of independence. J&K as it existed 1947 period borders.btw its not the kashmiris but its pertains to all countries occupying kashmir land has to get out.Kashmiri no more want to be drawn into slugfest of Indo-pak indo-china.


----------



## KS

Bombensturm said:


> We are not that foolish,If things really go bad(which i doubt)
> We always have Xinjiang as our example.



Also we have the option of abrogating the article 370.

Not long before the Punjabis or the UP wallahs show those Kashmiris their true place.


----------



## dabong1

Karthic Sri said:


> The bunch of stone throwing kids have already been shown their place either in Sri Nagar jail or in --------



And once they leave the torture cells of the Indian occupation forces they join the freedom fighters........please do carry on.
How come your not so hardcore when it comes to the hindu tamils?


----------



## KS

dabong1 said:


> And once they leave the torture cells of the Indian occupation forces they join the freedom fighters........please do carry on.



And once they join they just make it easy for the Sec. Forces. . Always feels good to kill a freedom fighter with an AK rather unfortunately killing a stone thrower.



dabong1 said:


> How come your not so hardcore when it comes to the hindu tamils?



Because neither Hindu Tamils nor Muslim Tamils nor Christian Tamils ask for secession from Mother India.


----------



## dabong1

Karthic Sri said:


> Also we have the option of abrogating the article 370.



We dont give a sh1t about your article 370...



Karthic Sri said:


> Not long before the Punjabis or the UP wallahs show those Kashmiris their true place.



Go ahead and try......you have not defeated kashmiri freedom for decades


----------



## KS

dabong1 said:


> We dont give a sh1t about your article 370...



Who wants your shyt or who asks for your permission ? If we want to do, We will do 



dabong1 said:


> Go ahead and try......you have not defeated kashmiri freedom for decades



Be careful what you wish for. !


----------



## dabong1

Karthic Sri said:


> And once they join they just make it easy for the Sec. Forces. . Always feels good to kill a freedom fighter with an AK rather unfortunately killing a stone thrower.



vice versa.......it always feels good when the freedom fighters kill members of the occupation army





Karthic Sri said:


> Because neither Hindu Tamils nor Muslim Tamils nor Christian Tamils ask for secession from Mother India.



So you support the sri lankan govt fight against the ones that want secession from Mother sri lanka ?


----------



## KS

dabong1 said:


> vice versa.......it always feels good when the freedom fighters kill members of the occupation army



But that aint happening...or happening very few and very far inbetween.

Remember you guys should send 1.2 billion of us to paradise before claiming that part of real estate.

So in short --- Not Happening.




dabong1 said:


> So you support the sri lankan govt fight against the ones that want secession from Mother sri lanka ?



I speak for only Mother India. Not for some other country.


----------



## ajtr

Karthic Sri said:


> But we are not moving out. Now go cry a river gal !


if india wont move out then every family all over india will cry oceans of blood.





> The bunch of stone throwing kids have already been shown their place either in Sri Nagar jail or in --------
> 
> Actually we Indians like Aloo and we are not gonna give it to anyone.


result of which still on going encounter...one SOG cop injured .Aur jada aaloo khaoge to kachalu ban jaoge.


----------



## twoplustwoisfour

ajtr said:


> if india wont move out then every family all over india will cry oceans of blood.



Is that *gasp*, a threat?

If it is, my answer is:

Why don't you stop your BS over the internet and come and get me?


----------



## ajtr

Karthic Sri said:


> But that aint happening...or happening very few and very far inbetween.
> 
> Remember you guys should send 1.2 billion of us to paradise before claiming that part of real estate.


sure there is 1.6 billion to send 1.2 billion to their respective destinations be it jannat,jahannum,heaven,hell,swarg,narq,moksh,or into recycle of rebirth back to earth again.


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## KS

ajtr said:


> if india wont move out then every family all over india will cry oceans of blood.



Get a life key board warrior ! You aint threatening me. 




ajtr said:


> result of which still on going encounter...*one SOG cop injured* .Aur jada aaloo khaoge to kachalu ban jaoge.



We will see after the encounter how many freedom fighters are relieved of their earthly duties.



ajtr said:


> sure there is 1.6 billion to send 1.2 billion to their respective destinations be it jannat,jahannum,heaven,hell,swarg,narq,moksh,or into recycle of rebirth back to earth again.



Showing your religious color eh ?? Like I said get a life keyboard mullah !


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## Rig Vedic

There's hardly any difference between language used by Ajtr, and the emails sent by the so-called 'Indian Mujahideen', which itself is known to be a branch of the Lashkar-e-Toiba.

Who knows, perhaps Ajtr lost his relatives when the Batla House cell was busted.


----------



## ajtr

Karthic Sri said:


> Get a life key board warrior ! You aint threatening me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We will see after the encounter how many freedom fighters are relieved of their earthly duties.
> 
> 
> 
> Showing your religious color eh ?? Like I said get a life keyboard mullah !





twoplustwoisfour said:


> Is that *gasp*, a threat?
> 
> If it is, my answer is:
> 
> Why don't you stop your BS over the internet and come and get me?


Tumko jo samjhna hai samajh lo .samajhdar ko ishara kaafi hai.


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## KS

ajtr said:


> Tumko jo samjhna hai samajh lo .samajhdar ko ishara kaafi hai.



Loosu....purira maari eludhudi...maaka maari eludhadha.


----------



## ajtr

Rig Vedic said:


> There's hardly any difference between language used by Ajtr, and the emails sent by the so-called 'Indian Mujahideen', which itself is known to be a branch of the Lashkar-e-Toiba.
> 
> Who knows, perhaps Ajtr's lost dear ones when the Batla House cell was busted.


before blaming others check out the the genocidal language used by so called hindutava brethren of so called secular india used on the various pages of this thread.


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## Rig Vedic

ajtr said:


> before blaming others check out the the genocidal language used by so called hindutava brethren of so called secular india used on the various pages of this thread.



Each person is responsible for his own language. You are responsible for yours. 

You have been advocating ethnic cleansing and genocide of Shias, Pandits, Dogras, Sikhs, Buddhists, Gujjars, Bakerwals, and secular Muslims. All these people want nothing to do with the Wahhabi paradise that Geelani and Co are seeking.


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## amigo

The so called sol. will be releasing of political prisnors, lifting of AFSPA, reduction of armed forces, economic package, employment opportunities.

Expecting anything more than this will only end up in frustration.


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## KS

amigo said:


> The so called sol. will be releasing of political prisnors, lifting of AFSPA, reduction of armed forces, economic package, employment opportunities.
> 
> Expecting anything more than this will only end up in frustration.



AFSPA will not be lifted because both the Service Chiefs have advocated against it and Gen V.K.Singh has been especially critical of the move.

lets see how it pans out.


----------



## prototype

ajtr said:


> *if india wont move out then every family all over india will cry oceans of blood.*
> 
> 
> 
> result of which still on going encounter...one SOG cop injured .Aur jada aaloo khaoge to kachalu ban jaoge.





ajtr said:


> sure there is 1.6 billion to send *1.2 billion to their respective destinations be it jannat,jahannum,heaven,hell,swarg,narq,moksh,or into recycle of rebirth back to earth again.*



ohhhh what a superb style

I have seen may Indian's who try to find flaws in his or her country,but for the 1st time I am witnessing an Indian who wish for the blood bath of the entire Indian community and she also had selected destinations for afterlife.

Even after all this bravadoes some Pakistanis back start to pain,when we label this $!^%(@& as a fake Indian


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## abrahams

^^
dont u know that he is a pakistani... in indian flags... he just doesnt like the pakistaniyat flag..


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## prototype

abrahams said:


> ^^
> dont u know that he is a pakistani... in indian flags... he just doesnt like the pakistaniyat flag..



First thing's first its not he,actually it's she


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## abrahams

^^^^
u just cant be sure.... well if a 'she' ... she has a disgusting mouth... 

Hu Jintao here...


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## sensenreason

ajtr said:


> Well why not?Didnt indian,pakistanis expected the same territorial negotiations outside british raj while they still using british flag.



I have NO confidence in this Govt.The interlocutors were appointed by the home minister who seems to play to the tunes of some foreign companies.

The three folks have there own weaknesses. MM Ansari is known to have opposed some valid information sharing, Dileep is a up for sale, while Radha is soft on ethnic faultlines.

This Govt might actually have direct links with ISI...need I say more.


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## Rig Vedic

alex mercer said:


> First thing's first its not he,actually it's she


 It's a he all right.


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## ajtr

sensenreason said:


> I have NO confidence in this Govt.The interlocutors were appointed by the home minister who seems to play to the tunes of some foreign companies.
> 
> The three folks have there own weaknesses. MM Ansari is known to have opposed some valid information sharing, Dileep is a up for sale, while Radha is soft on ethnic faultlines.
> 
> This Govt might actually have direct links with ISI...need I say more.


Well people never had confidence in govt.ruling from Delhi.


----------



## ajtr

alex mercer said:


> ohhhh what a superb style
> 
> I have seen may Indian's who try to find flaws in his or her country,but for the 1st time I am witnessing an Indian who wish for the blood bath of the entire Indian community and she also had selected destinations for afterlife.
> 
> Even after all this bravadoes some Pakistanis back start to pain,when we label this $!^&#37;(@& as a fake Indian


And i haven seen so called self acclaimed patriotic/secular indians suggesting genocide of its own people on one moment they call them indian and other moment as enemy according to their own convenience which ever suits them.Talk of being hippocratic.


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## Fireurimagination

ajtr said:


> if india wont move out then every family all over india will cry oceans of blood.



Pathetic all I can say is bring it on sister, we are here to chew bubblegum and kick a** and we are out of bubblegum


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## Rig Vedic

Karthic Sri said:


> Actually this is getting funny --- Joe defending the Evangelists who are world renowed proselytisers and self-declared 'soul-harvesters' and attacks the VHP calling them violent proselytisers.
> 
> 'Pot calling the kettle black'.
> 
> Perhaps the neutral stance changes when it comes to one's own faith.



Actually 'Pot calling the kettle black' is not an appropriate analogy, because aggressive missionary efforts for "soul-harvesting" cannot be equated with Lakshmanananda's work. 

In general, the nature-worship of tribals is very much in harmony with the philosophies of Sanatan Dharma.

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## dabong1

Rig Vedic said:


> Shias, Pandits, Dogras, Sikhs, Buddhists, Gujjars, Bakerwals, and secular Muslims. All these people want nothing to do with the Wahhabi paradise that Geelani and Co are seeking.



The same people you mention also dont want nothing to do with the Brahmin-hindutva paradise that the elite of india are seeking.
Why not just have a vote and see what the people want....india pakistan.After all the kashmiri people love india and surley you will win the vote by a large margin.......wont you


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## RVS_108

solution of Kashmir

1)dismiss the LOC pact of late mrs indiri gandhi and make the original international border as the LOC 

2)take the control of P-O-K 

3)take the J&K govt 100% undercontrol or implement President rule (old law of democratic Roman's when enemies at the gate then they shuts the democracy and installs one man to power "ceasar" ) 

4)eliminate all the separatist leaders who still are Anti-National

5)keep an eye on pakistan abt the training of militants ,fundings and infiltrations.

Show them the POWER


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## WAR-rior

Hey Forummates,

I have been on this forum for some time and frankly my stay has been pleasent. Mods are also cool, though sometimes biased..  .. but chalta hai.....we all shud be little biased.....now plz dont take my statement offensively coz thats not the point of contention...its just an introductory para.....

Now, i was thinking, i being on a Pakistani forum, not talking bout kashmir is something unusual and unexpected of me. I know there might be umpteen threads on this and u guyz wud be fed up of discussing(i mean fighting like animals) over this issue. so for a change lets change the rules.....

This thread is only facts and version sharing thread......no ideology, no agenda, no propaganda.....No.....INSHALLAH KASHMIR WILL BE FREE.......INDIA WILL BREAK INTO 20-30 PIECES, etc etc.

Lets make it a strict discussion forum......for outbursts u can reopen earlier threads and do whatever u want or say......not here atleast.

The reason is I have my version of whole kashimir problem and i am pretty sure its the true version which i intend to present in front of the forum members and most importantly honourable think tanks.

Now my intension is actually to see how much diverted is the indian version and pakistani version respectively...... This will for sure try to bring us on same boat if we discuss our propagandas and consense the truth.

Frankly speaking i am fedup of fanyboys on this forum...... i am fed up of kiddish blabbering and unpractical talks....which infact kills my whole agenda of being here.

LETS MAKE THIS A TROLLFREE THREAD. 

infact i whd request mods to give me virtual control of this thread......ie. plz do consider my request if i ask u guyz to take action on any post per se....
1 trolling post might be a butterfly effect...... so plz be proactive.

Now back to da topic.....
Before presenting the version, I wud like to hear pakistani and indian versions. just wanna see the deviation fom what i know.

Guyz, theres no tax on trying.... every conflict starts with lack of meeting of minds...and if we can get closer about this then why not ?

Now for starters.....I wud only say Kashmir was meant to be independent. what happened next 60+ years was only natural by both india and pakistan..... but atlast we have to end it right....cant get inlo the infinite loop tough.

Now please talk serious and sense....and i ask mods to plz cooperate with me.... i am interested in real meeting of minds, atleast on this forum tough. 

---------- Post added at 11:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 PM ----------

-----------------------------------------------------

@Topic :- Kashmir is one interesting place in da world with some interesting demographics with some more interesting history.

For ages Kashmir has lived in its beautiful heavenly geography..and as experts say, _beautiful aura makes u think beautiful_. hence there was always harmony among kashmiris.....or what we call KASHMIRIAT....

infact story of kashmir is also very interesting......KASHMIR is actually a country..COUNTRY OF SAINTS.....infact COUNTRY OF SYNCRETIC SAINTS...... or in urdu we call sufism.....

1st women saint of kashmir was hindu.... 'Lal ded' .... who actually brought up a muslim as her own son.....who later under divine guidance of the saintess became sheikh noor ud din !

now this heaven was 1st turned into the direction of hell by alexander...... 1st time kashmir was invaded by a foreigner..... it was ok for kashmiris coz his decendent zain ul abedin was great politician and a very culturally tolerant humanitarian......infact under him did the kashmiriat flourished......

Now the bad times started in 1300 when kashmir was invaded and annexed by a muslim ruler. shah mir......he was a very tyrant ruler and forced his ways on kashmir......forcing in every aspect.....from ideology to religion, etc etc.....

now this was intolerable for kahmiris and their kashmiriat !

thats the point fight for freedom started ..and freedom means freedom to practice syncretism !

since then kashmir has been ruled by several rulers..from muslims to sikh to hindu to secular (India)...... but no one even understood or even tried to understand KASHMIRIAT !

they have been under so many rulers but still they demand is kashmiriat.....nothing else.....thats where the kashmir as a free country arises......

an the bottomline to add is, we both india and pakistan has created so much artifical and duplicity in kashmir that it has actually lost its identity...... ppl who say kashmir is for muslims and support geelani are hypocrits.....a pro muslim leader cannot be a kashmiri by ideology.....one of the reasons national conference has been winning since pre independence by 100&#37; seats...... coz they believe in kashmiriat which is secular in nature. (some reason abdullahs went with india rather than pakistan).

but again the abdullahs also have someway betrayed kashmiris by signing pact with indians.....now theres a long different story which my indians will be really interested....

in other words...current polity in kashmir, both hurriyat as well as national conference are just impotent and against the idea of kashmir...... but comparitively if i have to choose one-eyed among the blinds, then i will go for Nat Conf rather than any pro religious party.....atleast Nat Conf is syncretic in nature !

that wud infact destroy the whole idea of kashmiriat !

-------------------------------------------

I have so much to discuss.......but i wud be fool to only speak......its good for all to be speaking......

Hence, i float the thread for further discussion ! feel free !


----------



## Xestan

Freedom for Kashmir 

No Offence Dude

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## ajtr

Fact on ground is Kashmiri children are sacrificing themselves for Azadi and they deserve freedom.

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## RVS_108

> The same people you mention also dont want nothing to do with the Brahmin-hindutva paradise that the elite of india are seeking.
> Why not just have a vote and see what the people want....india pakistan.After all the kashmiri people love india and surley you will win the vote by a large margin.......wont you



its like past 30yrs they wer under the target of Islamic militants of pakistan in kashmir and u want the voting stuff now , ofcors the kashmiris will be given the chance to vote but only after having atleast 3yrs experience of under the Elite-Hindutvadis ,coz they can change the color of kashmir into saffron frm green via red like how islamic militants did it frm saffron to green via red


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## Paan Singh

ajtr said:


> Fact on ground is Kashmiri children are sacrificing themselves for Azadi and they deserve freedom.



baby firstly give freedom to indian flag from ur profile

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## infidel

ajtr said:


> Fact on ground is Kashmiri children are sacrificing themselves for Azadi and they deserve freedom.



azadi ..??
azadi from what ?


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## Rig Vedic

dabong1 said:


> The same people you mention also dont want nothing to do with the Brahmin-hindutva paradise that the elite of india are seeking.
> Why not just have a vote and see what the people want....india pakistan.After all the kashmiri people love india and surley you will win the vote by a large margin.......wont you



We have votes very regularly, in which the separatists' violent boycott calls get ignored by the people. 

As regards UN resolutions, even UN secretary generals say that they are irrelevant.


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## WAR-rior

@ MODS :-

all the posts where no facts and stories are provided be deleated......

this thread is not for expressing ur feelings..... other similar threads are there !

discuss on basis of facts..whatever facts u know !

NO TROLLING


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## WAR-rior

NO PROPAGANDAS PLZ !!
NO PROPAGANDAS PLZ !!
NO PROPAGANDAS PLZ !!

be mature..read whole introductory post of mine and prove ur self that u are smart and not lunatics.......Plz be sane !


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## WAR-rior

@ umer rajpoot, ajtr,prism,infidel :-

guyz..i request u to not set a bad example for this thread...plz self delete ur posts as those are not ontopic and not helping at all......show some sense plz......thx !


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## LaBong

Dude use proper punctuation when writing such a long article, it's so hard to read.

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## UnitedPak

With all due respect, the last part of your post is all about ideology, religion and what can only be described as an anti-Muslim version of Kashmiri history. The elections and Maharaja Hari Singh are major points of disagreement between all three parties so why would you base your "facts" on them?

All ideology and religion aside, I would like to add that most Pakistanis would support the decision of the Kashmiri people, *whatever that decision may be*. I dont see this as trying to gain more land or to have a bash at India. This is purely about giving Kashmiris the same right every other state in the former British Indian empire was given. We *will* respect the final say from Kashmiris.

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## Dalai Lama

FACT: During the 19th century rule, Kashmir was a popular tourist destination due to its climate. The railway to Rawalpindi, and a road thence to Srinagar made access to the valley easier. When the temperature in Srinagar rose at the beginning of June, the residents migrated to Gulmarg, which was a fashionable hill station during British rule. This great influx of visitors resulted in a corresponding diminution of game for the sportsmen. Special game preservation rules were introduced, and nullahs were let out for stated periods with a restriction on the number of head to be shot. Rawalakot was another popular destination.While tourism in the area fell off with the start of separatist violence in the late 1980s, the BBC reported in 2005 that tourists had begun returning due to a decrease in attacks.

One of the most famous tourist spots in India is the Amarnath cave, which is considered to be one of the holiest shrines in Hinduism. While the cave is regularly visited by pilgrims making offerings, it has been a target for attacks by Islamic militants.

(Taken from Wiki)


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## WAR-rior

UnitedPak said:


> With all due respect, the last part of your post is all about ideology, religion and what can only be described as an anti-Muslim version of Kashmiri history. The elections and Maharaja Hari Singh are major points of disagreement between all three parties so why would you base your "facts" on them?
> 
> All ideology and religion aside, I would like to add that most Pakistanis would support the decision of the Kashmiri people, *whatever that decision may be*. I dont see this as trying to gain more land or to have a bash at India. This is purely about giving Kashmiris the same right every other state in the former British Indian empire was given. We *will* respect the final words from Kashmiris.



dude, dont know whether u understand this, but idea of kashmiriat is actually against any pro-religious ideology.

i wud say not only my version is anti-muslim but its anti-sikh, anti-hinduism, etc etc......

elections and harisingh thingy comes just 60 yrs back......we wud also discuss bout them for sure.....

but i started with the initial history......i still havent come to the independence era ... ie.1947! 

Also to add 1 question...why are pakistanis so interested in freedom of kashmir when we all know, what kashmiriat ideologically demand is independence!


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## WAR-rior

Abir said:


> Dude use proper punctuation when writing such a long article, it's so hard to read.



sorry bro..... i shud have rectified it before posting.no complaints next tym..... tnx !


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## WAR-rior

TheDeletedUser said:


> FACT: During the 19th century rule, Kashmir was a popular tourist destination due to its climate. The railway to Rawalpindi, and a road thence to Srinagar made access to the valley easier. When the temperature in Srinagar rose at the beginning of June, the residents migrated to Gulmarg, which was a fashionable hill station during British rule. This great influx of visitors resulted in a corresponding diminution of game for the sportsmen. Special game preservation rules were introduced, and nullahs were let out for stated periods with a restriction on the number of head to be shot. Rawalakot was another popular destination.While tourism in the area fell off with the start of separatist violence in the late 1980s, the BBC reported in 2005 that tourists had begun returning due to a decrease in attacks.
> 
> One of the most famous tourist spots in India is the Amarnath cave, which is considered to be one of the holiest shrines in Hinduism. While the cave is regularly visited by pilgrims making offerings, it has been a target for attacks by Islamic militants.
> 
> (Taken from Wiki)



this shows the whole ideology of syncretism ! religion for kashmiris is a personal affair. they dont make it political.....its the culture inhibited in them that dominates their lyfstyle.....thats kashmiriat for u.....


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## amigo

@thread starter, u pleaded for no trolling but the kasmir word is itself a troll invitation.


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## WAR-rior

amigo said:


> @thread starter, u pleaded for no trolling but the kasmir word is itself a troll invitation.



thats what i tried to do differently...... now its totally dependent on ur smartness, if u dont troll even on this subject.....

and mods are always there.....i have specified the desired rules for this thread to the mods.....anyone deviating from the agenda shud be deleted......thats mad's job !


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## Imran Khan

i think as it should be decide by people of kashmir

first bring international body in both side of kashmir . after 6 months of establish this body announce a referendum which should be 100&#37; free . and let them select one of three options.

pakistan
india 
freedom

and vote should be cast by every kashmiri .pool should be 3 days and every day 8 hours .

and then count it by same international body.

if they decide to be free of both which is expected by me let them free. if they select india let pakistan has to give azad kashmir to india and if they decide pakistan india should give control to pak .finish this matter forever. no more war or problims and then we can reduce our forces numbers slowly . use defense money for development of us . we are poor enough really enough.


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## WAR-rior

Imran Khan said:


> i think as it should be decide by people of kashmir
> 
> first bring international body in both side of kashmir . after 6 months of establish this body announce a referendum which should be 100% free . and let them select one of three options.
> 
> pakistan
> india
> freedom
> 
> and vote should be cast by every kashmiri .pool should be 3 days and every day 8 hours .
> 
> and then count it by same international body.
> 
> if they decide to be free of both which is expected by me let them free. if they select india let pakistan has to give azad kashmir to india and if they decide pakistan india should give control to pak .finish this matter forever. no more war or problims and then we can reduce our forces numbers slowly . use defense money for development of us . we are poor enough really enough.



dude...that cud have been possible 60 yrs back.....

but i personally feel that todays kashmir has begotten into the agenda of india and pakistan.......

i mean, what happened in 1948 - 1965 (till arrest of sheikh abdullah).....and in 1989.....from militancy to kashmiri pandit cleansing.....

kashmir is no more the kashmir of its people !

their style of thinking, ideology has taken a paradigm shift.....

i hate to say it but kashmiriat has taken a revised version.....

now kashmir is divided into pro muslim and pro hindu sects.....completely diviated from idea of syncretism ! unfortunately....

Thats what Farukh Abdulla always says to indian polity and pkistani one too ! infact the idea of syncretism was very much alive during 1947...... thanks to aur chacha nehruji !


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## WAR-rior

now if u went for a plebesite now..it wud be even disasterous......

a 1948 repeat in kashmir ! 

infact india and pakistan for personal gains have pushed kashmir to such a high extent that no plebiscite is practically possible.....


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## Imran Khan

WAR-rior said:


> dude...that cud have been possible 60 yrs back.....
> 
> but i personally feel that todays kashmir has begotten into the agenda of india and pakistan.......
> 
> i mean, what happened in 1948 - 1965 (till arrest of sheikh abdullah).....and in 1989.....from militancy to kashmiri pandit cleansing.....
> 
> kashmir is no more the kashmir of its people !
> 
> their style of thinking, ideology has taken a paradigm shift.....
> 
> i hate to say it but kashmiriat has taken a revised version.....
> 
> now kashmir is divided into pro muslim and pro hindu sects.....completely diviated from idea of syncretism ! unfortunately....
> 
> Thats what Farukh Abdulla always says to indian polity and pkistani one too ! infact the idea of syncretism was very much alive during 1947...... thanks to aur chacha nehruji !



first i am not dude 

scened whats the way of democracy and civil way to select some options ??????? we are living in 2010 if you think pakistan and india agree with each other and we can keep Kashmirs aside you are wrong. there is no peaceful way else pool . if you have any other way please shear i will change my thought if thats work.


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## WAR-rior

now here i want to put my 1st question !

owing to the current situation.....its not possible for kashmir to get independence....

i am not talking bout ideological stuff but practical stuff.....its out of question.....

so the question arises is, what in hell shud be done to bring those kashmiris out of mess !

i personllay feel is accept status quo.....

one reason kashmir want independence is coz its fed up of being sandwich between india and pakistan......

lets loosen that sandwich....lets soften our stand......lets keep what we have and be happy......indians arent against kashmiris if they are cooperative.....secularism is our way of life and its seen in politics too......

same as giljit-baltistan shud be under ur control......

and lest not have borders between ur and our kashmir......as proposed by musharraf ! best solution.....


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## amigo

Imran Khan said:


> first i am not dude
> 
> scened whats the way of democracy and civil way to select some options ??????? we are living in 2010 if you think pakistan and india agree with each other and we can keep Kashmirs aside you are wrong. there is no peaceful way else pool . if you have any other way please shear i will change my thought if thats work.



the only possible sol. i guess is to accept LOC as international border bcoz india will never agree on plebesite.


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## WAR-rior

no dude......no international border.....thats not in favour of interests of kashmiris ! its like building a wall in middle of ur drawing room just coz neighbours on either side are harrassing !


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## Imran Khan

amigo said:


> the only possible sol. i guess is to accept LOC as international border bcoz india will never agree on plebesite.



this is unacceptable for kashmiris they will never stop protests . at this time LOC is same as border or much more then border so whats new for them in this?


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## WAR-rior

Imran Khan said:


> first i am not dude



sorry sir if i made some error..... i have no acquaintance to u....

do PM me ur introduction...will be highly obliged to introduce myself !


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## amigo

WAR-rior said:


> no dude......no international border.....thats not in favour of interests of kashmiris ! its like building a wall in middle of ur drawing room just coz neighbours on either side are harrassing !



punjabis & bengalis have suffered that in 1947 but now all is settled down, this will to settle down.


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## WAR-rior

infact we have no other option than leaving the kashmir rhetoric.....

we both tend to fuget that in our egoistic jingoism.....we are harming a third person.

but 1 point of mine....

we shudnt be caring bout optimim solution....but shud target the MOST FEASIBLE solution.....

lets stop our rhetoric of age old ideology......

fuget kashmir


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## Imran Khan

amigo said:


> punjabis & bengalis have suffered that in 1947 but now all is settled down, this will to settle down.



that was another way sir. kashmir is become at that point were we cant go back one step . its our real problem we make this issue as do and die. stupid criminal leaders use this issue for vote bank and make public emotional on kashmir.

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## amigo

Imran Khan said:


> this is unacceptable for kashmiris they will never stop protests . at this time LOC is same as border or much more then border so whats new for them in this?



i am being practical on this issue, do u think that india will agree on plebisite. i suggested LOC as permanent border bcoz it will be ok with both india & pakistan. & if u say what will be the wish of kashmiris then out of three (ind,pak,kashmiris)one has to make compromise on that & u know india & pak will never compromise on this issue.


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## Imran Khan

WAR-rior said:


> sorry sir if i made some error..... i have no acquaintance to u....
> 
> do PM me ur introduction...will be highly obliged to introduce myself !



its ok i will so happy if you call me imran bro bhai or even imran but i dont like this word

first we finish this issue then i will PM you and make you my friend

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## Hulk

For starters I have heard this word, so many times but does not understand it.
What is KASHMIRIAT?
What are it's Characteristics?


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## Imran Khan

amigo said:


> i am being practical on this issue, do u think that india will agree on plebisite. i suggested LOC as permanent border bcoz it will be ok with both india & pakistan. & if u say what will be the wish of kashmiris then out of three (ind,pak,kashmiris)one has to make compromise on that & u know india & pak will never compromise on this issue.



sir before we decide this we have to give more power to kashmiris have to finish matter with armed groups they will never let it happen easy . what if pakistan india agree on LOC as border but armed struggle and blame game will never over 7lakh troops stay in kashmir and daily exchange of firing at LOC . we are not going to finish this matter on papers only we have to done it once forever.


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## Imran Khan

indianrabbit said:


> For starters I have heard this word, so many times but does not understand it.
> What is KASHMIRIAT?
> What are it's Characteristics?



Kashmiriyat is the ethno-national and social consciousness and cultural values of the Kashmiri people.


Kashmiriyat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## amigo

Imran Khan said:


> sir before we decide this we have to give more power to kashmiris have to finish matter with armed groups they will never let it happen easy . what if pakistan india agree on LOC as border but armed struggle and blame game will never over 7lakh troops stay in kashmir and daily exchange of firing at LOC . we are not going to finish this matter on papers only we have to done it once forever.



if & whenever kashmir issue will be solved one party out of three have to suffer. why don't u suggest a sol. which will be acceptable to all three parties.


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## Imran Khan

amigo said:


> if & whenever kashmir issue will be solved one party out of three have to suffer. why don't u suggest a sol. which will be acceptable to all three parties.



i dont wanna see one party suffer sir. any my solution is up in my first post sir


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## Hulk

Imran Khan said:


> Kashmiriyat is the ethno-national and social consciousness and cultural values of the Kashmiri people.
> 
> 
> Kashmiriyat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



thanks, I could have done google search myself. What I meant was how does it impact daily life in Kashmir.

The only thing I understood was they like to be secular, in other words. But if that is what is about Kashmir, then what they are doing now is not even close to what they stand for.


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## amigo

Imran Khan said:


> i dont wanna see one party suffer sir. any my solution is up in my first post sir



sir,as far as sol. in ur post is concerned, then i want to say that no country in this world wants to loose even 1 inch of it's territory & if plesibite is done then india will loose big chunk of kashmir. that will not be acceptle for indians, bcoz loosing kashmir will mean defeat from pakistan.


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## Imran Khan

amigo said:


> sir,as far as sol. in ur post is concerned, then i want to say that no country in this world wants to loose even 1 inch of it's territory & if plesibite is done then india will loose big chunk of kashmir. that will not be acceptle for indians, bcoz loosing kashmir will mean defeat from pakistan.



we are not thinking abut lose sir its victory of peace in s.asia.we have not much choices . both nations has to think we cant move in 1st world unless we solve our problems.making an agreement its easy but on ground there is alot of factors . we have to address them also if we keep them as they are the agreement will be fail within 1 year.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

HK is prison, its people prisoners: APHC - GEO.tv







> ISLAMABAD: All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) said that held Kashmir (HK) had turned into a huge prison where everyone is under arrest.
> 
> Addressing a news conference here, leaders of APHC said that the government of India has enacted a series of black laws in Kashmir. These laws facilitate human rights violations. Shoot to kill at discretion has been granted to the Indian forces with complete protection against prosecution.
> 
> Mentioning statistics, the leaders said that from January 1989 till 07 December 2010: 93,535 Kashmiri men women and children have been killed, 6,981 Custodial killings, 118,792 Civilians arrested and 107,396 Orphaned.


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## WAR-rior

indianrabbit said:


> For starters I have heard this word, so many times but does not understand it.
> What is KASHMIRIAT?
> What are it's Characteristics?



not giving a long explanation.....i wud do it in 1 sentence.....

kashmiriat is actually secularism in true sense......indian secularism is still not utopian in true sense......we have our loop holes.....

Kashmiriat is syncretism defined ! now u shud know what exactly syncretism is !

thats 1 of the reasons kashmiri ppl decided to be with india after 1947....but dont misunderstand it with mearging with india.....thats what we indians think......

Actually, kashmiris were left with either ALLYING with india or pakistan to save itself from ant further invasion. independence without any strong army wasnt to be a reality.....

so kashmiris decided to ally with india as idea of india was same as idea of kashmiriat......ie. syncretism and secularism.

RSS or at that time HINDU SABHA, were just a distant minority as frankly they are till now and also as far as i have understood my country.....they will never be the majority....no doubt we are 80&#37; hindus, but we are from culture and values SYNCRETIC !


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## WAR-rior

indianrabbit said:


> thanks, I could have done google search myself. What I meant was how does it impact daily life in Kashmir.
> 
> The only thing I understood was they like to be secular, in other words. But if that is what is about Kashmir, then what they are doing now is not even close to what they stand for.



thats so true.....u have hit the nail......

its very true that todays kashmiri youth is getting into the ugly clutches of fundamentalism.......not completely though but things are worse than ever before.....

and thats exactly the reason plebiscite shud never happen...... COZ THAT WILL DESTROY THE KASHMIRIAT once and for all......

plebiscite is the BEST solution but unfortunately not a feasible one ..... and we indians and pakistanis have to bear the blame for doing this to kashmir.....

now if u talk bout a feasible solution then as i said earlier...... let the borders belong to india and pakistan respectively.......thats strategic and no india and pakistan wud leave it.

but for kashmiris it shud be borderless......

I strongly suggest for indian army to at max be at the borders....

they have no business inside kashmiri land.....

BUT thats only feasible if pakistan stop its proxy war in name of complete kashmir...be at the border.ie LOC....no issues with it...fulfill ur strategic needs...no problem.....but for heavens sake both ind and pak, just loosen the rope guyz......its only choking the innocent kashmiris !


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## WAR-rior

amigo said:


> sir,as far as sol. in ur post is concerned, then i want to say that no country in this world wants to loose even 1 inch of it's territory & if plesibite is done then india will loose big chunk of kashmir. that will not be acceptle for indians, bcoz loosing kashmir will mean defeat from pakistan.



he he ! dude, u have figured out this whole saga just and just as an egotistic war ?

u need to know a lot then.....

indian annexure of kashmir has been in the most strategic interests of it.

india rite from 1947 has tried to make its borders strategically superior. now thats natural for any country..strategically strong borders always give u an upper hand against any misadventure of the future.

plz understand, we indians have been only invaded for past 1000+ years and all invasions have been from north west india. its natural of any independent country to save its so hard earned independence in the future and thats what indians did......

They focused on strong navy to safe guard its such a long coastline....

its strengthened its borders in north.......

Just have a look....all of indian borders are strategically superior to its neighbour.....

in case of china, india tried to do it by gaining control of the unoccupied heights in todays aksai chin.

infact aksai chin has always been such territory which no human was interested........completely cold and snowing....nothing to eat, etc etc.

even in british map of 1947, things werent clear where does he border towards china extend to...there were no satellite images at that time.....hence we see disputes......but not to mention arunachal pradesh ppl have completely accepted it as part of india. there is no dispute on that side.....*chinese are completely unjustified in their claim in arunachal side*....

but for aksai chin, u can always raise ur claim...... its still very much uninhabitated. so those who think aksai chin is or was part of kashmir then i cant support this claim coz there were hardly any so called kashmiris living in that region ever..... some reason why 1962 happened.......shudnt blame chinese for it.....we were for a reason responsible and thats coz of our SUPERIOR BORDER ACQUISITION theory.

so the bottomline is..... *GIVE LOC to india and pakistan.....GIVE KASHMIR TO KASHMIRIS !*


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## WAR-rior

frankly once for all...i wud like JANA to come into this discussion..nothing better than a journalist to discuss things......lets see her version !


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## Hulk

WAR-rior said:


> frankly once for all...i wud like JANA to come into this discussion..nothing better than a journalist to discuss things......lets see her version !



A discussion happens when both sides puts there points and if one person has solid argument the other person agrees. With Jana I do not think you can have a discussion. She is hardcore anti Indian, in her book India cannot do anything right. You will realise if she comes to discussion.

A better person to discuss will be AM, he uses arguments to discuss, instead of emotions. Strong player.

Few other people are Santro, blain2, graphican etc.


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## WAR-rior

lets not stereotype guyz..... jana is a journalist and has her own learnings.....

what better way to smoothen a person as on this forum ? Lets discuss ! 

and i dont mean propaganda....just discuss our stories......lets see how can we agree or counter argue for a give point with logic !


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## Hulk

WAR-rior said:


> lets not stereotype guyz..... jana is a journalist and has her own learnings.....
> 
> what better way to smoothen a person as on this forum ? Lets discuss !
> 
> and i dont mean propaganda....just discuss our stories......lets see how can we agree or counter argue for a give point with logic !



I will wait to see the day when u can prove me wrong on this.


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## justanobserver

Somewhat relevant:

------------------------------

Tuesday, 23 December 2008, 13:26
C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 02 NEW DELHI 003228
SIPDIS
DEPARTMENT FOR SCA/INS
EO 12958 DECL: 12/22/2018
TAGS PGOV, PREL, PTER, KISL, IN
*SUBJECT: CONGRESS PARTY STUNG PLAYING RELIGIOUS POLITICS
WITH TERRORISM*
REF: MUMBAI 518
Classified By: PolCouns Ted Osius for Reasons 1.4 (B, D)



Antulay sparked a political controversy on December 17 with comments insinuating that the killing of Maharashtra Anti-Terror Squad (ATS) Chief Hemant Karkare by the Mumbai terrorists was somehow linked to Karkare's investigation of bombings in which radical Hindus are suspected (reftel). The outlandish comments suggested that somehow Hindutva elements were in league with the Mumbai attackers, or used the attacks as cover to kill Karkare.



Antulay made a series of public comments drawing attention to a possible link between Karkare's killing and his investigation. *He offered no evidence to back-up his claims.
*

Most Congress Party leaders quickly disassociated the Party from Atulay's comments. Congress Party spokesman Abishek Singhvi told the press, "We do not accept the innuendo and the aspersions cast. This should be the end of the matter. The Congress does not agree with Antulay's statement." Another Congress Party spokesman, Manish Tiwari, followed the next day with, "The Congress in any manner does not endorse Antulay's views."


*
However, on December 21 senior Congress leader Digvijay Singh told the media, "I don't think Antulay made a mistake. What he asked for is a probe. What is objectionable in his statement?"*



While the killing of three high level law enforcement officers during the Mumbai attacks is a remarkable coincidence, the Congress Party's initial reaction to Antulay's outrageous comments was correct. But as support seemed to swell among Muslims for Antulay's unsubstantiated claims, crass political opportunism swayed the thinking of some Congress Party leaders. What's more, the party made the cynical political calculation to lend credence to the conspiracy even after its recent emboldening state elections victories. The party chose to pander to Muslims' fears, providing impetus for those in the Muslim community who will continue to play up the conspiracy theory. While cooler heads eventually prevailed within the Congress leadership, the idea that the party would entertain such outlandish claims proved once again that many party leaders are still wedded to the old identity politics. The seventy-nine year old Antulay was probably bewildered to find that his remarks, similar in vein to what he would have routinely made in the past to attack the BJP, created such a furor this time.

-------------------------------------------
US embassy cables: Mumbai conspiracy allegations 'outrageous' ? US ambassador | World news | guardian.co.uk


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## Awesome

Ridiculous, its simple translation based questions and hearing the narrative of students and let them express their views. Examiners always set hypothetical question papers with a subject matter that is relevant to the times.

In India it is open season to squash all dissenting voices.


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## rohailmalhi

yeah the right face of World largest democrazy with full freedom of speech . Right
and indian cry alot abt china .lol

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## Fact_ur_mine

Devil Soul said:


> Professor arrested for setting exam paper with questions on Kashmir unrest
> PTI, Dec 10, 2010, 12.55pm IST
> SRINAGAR: A lecturer of a government college was today arrested for allegedly setting a paper filled with questions related to the recent unrest in Valley.
> 
> "Noor Mohammad Bhat, a lecturer at Gandhi Memorial College, has been arrested," IGP (Kashmir range) S M Sahai said.
> 
> *The students appearing in the English paper for BA, BSc and B Com annual examinations were surprised to find questions related to the five month unrest in Kashmir.
> 
> "Are the stone-pelters the real heroes?" was one of the questions asked. *
> 
> The students were also asked to translate from Urdu to English, a paragraph laden with allegations of human rights violations by security forces.
> 
> Investigations revealed that the question paper was set by Bhat, leading to his arrest.
> 
> Professor arrested for setting exam paper with questions on Kashmir unrest - The Times of India



In English Paper
Questions are asked about HISTORY
To me Lecturers state of mind is MYSTERY.


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## Paan Singh

it is written that paper was set by him,so wats the deal of world largest democracy.


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## Awesome

Nobel Peace Prize for Noor Mohammad Bhat

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## Paan Singh

Asim Aquil said:


> Nobel Peace Prize for Noor Mohammad Bhat



paaji out of syllabus paper piche nobel price dogey,is article wich mention hai ji


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## Awesome

Prism said:


> paaji out of syllabus paper piche nobel price dogey,is article wich mention hai ji


He exercised the human beings right to free speech and taught the same to his students.

I think he deserved the award, to defy the tantrums of 1 billion people against free speech.

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## jayron

It is unnecessary to arrest him. They could have fired him instead..

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## LaBong

Asim Aquil said:


> He exercised the human beings right to free speech and taught the same to his students.
> 
> I think he deserved the award, to defy the tantrums of 1 billion people against free speech.



But he is also accepting payments from government.


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## SpArK

Setting up question papers based on a persons "freedom of speech" in volatile subjects like separatism, religion cannot be tolerated.

What if he put some really nasty scenarios which are explicit and call it "its my freedom of speech"???


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## Donatello

He must be an ISI agent, trained somewhere in the ISI camp.

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## rohailmalhi

Prism said:


> it is written that paper was set by him,so wats the deal of world largest democracy.



I think one of major pillars of democrazy is tht u have freedom of speech. and tht professor just practiced his freedom of speech and in the result the largest democrzy locked him up for using his right to speech.

Buck Up Leep it up the Good work U Indians.


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## rohailmalhi

BENNY said:


> Setting up question papers based on a persons "freedom of speech" in volatile subjects like separatism, religion cannot be tolerated.
> 
> What if he put some really nasty scenarios which are explicit and call it "its my freedom of speech"???



*What if* is a very big Question Mark *?*.U dont have any proof for tht .


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## rohailmalhi

penumbra said:


> He must be an ISI agent, trained somewhere in the ISI camp.



ISI agent trained in JUD camp in muridkay to teach the indian students tht there *army is killing innocent Muslims Kashmirs *for not good reason.


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## SpArK

rohailmalhi said:


> I think one of major pillars of democrazy is tht u have freedom of speech. and tht professor just practiced his freedom of speech and in the result the largest democrzy locked him up for using his right to speech.
> 
> Buck Up Leep it up the Good work U Indians.



Democracy has its limitations and is not tolerent towards anything said in the name of freedom of speech.. Examples are comments on religion and comments that is against the integrity of nation.

Some people like to take pot shots against incident like these to satisfy their own egos.

Not so long ago, in my state a person has been attacked and removed from job on a similar incident where he insulted a religious person in a question paper.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/66425-blood-their-hands.html

There are some limits regarding exercising "freedom of speech".. a little use of grey matter actually helps in identifying and *justifying* it.

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## Gene

freedom of speech do not permit anyone to comply force on others to accept it.by setting his own view in question paper is like to force his students to accept it.

This is not freedom of speech.


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## LaBong

rohailmalhi said:


> I think one of major pillars of democrazy is tht u have freedom of speech. and tht professor just practiced his freedom of speech and in the result the largest democrzy locked him up for using his right to speech.
> 
> Buck Up Leep it up the Good work U Indians.



How is it freedom of speech when he is *paid *to set up the question? 

He must comply the rules of government when setting up the paper.


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## The HBS Guy

*'Back channel diplomacy' underway with India on Kashmir: Pak​*
LAHORE: Pakistan has said that "back channel diplomacy" is being conducted with India to resolve the Kashmir issue.

"Back channel diplomacy with India is underway to resolve the Kashmir issue. However, we are stressing India should hold tripartite talks (with Pakistan and the Kashmiris). The Kashmiris must be involved in parleys for a peaceful solution to the conflict," Pakistan's Kashmir Affairs Minister Manzoor Ahmed Wattoo said.

Wattoo did not give details of the back channel contacts. Recent media reports in Pakistan have suggested that former Foreign Secretary Riaz Khan has been holding talks with ex-Indian envoy S K Lambah as part of the back channel contacts.

At the same time, Wattoo said that the Kashmir issue should be resolved under existing UN resolutions.

Alleging that "human rights violations are on the rise" in Kashmir, he said "the world powers should play their role in resolving the issue." 

'Back channel diplomacy' underway with India on Kashmir: Pak - The Economic Times


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## rockstarIN

This is a very good platform for going forward...good luck all


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## Rig Vedic

^^^ This is a text-book example of how the so-called secular parties routinely commit the most vile hate-crimes against Hindus. The fact is the Indian secularists often propound precisely the same conspiracy theories as Pakistani elements like Zaid Hamid (point to be noted by our "secular" friend Joe Shearer, who displays the same criminal bent of mind).

From a Rediff report:



> "The Congress Party, after first distancing itself from the comments (of Antulay, the then minority affairs minister), two days later issued a contradictory statement which implicitly endorsed the conspiracy. During this time, Antulay's completely unsubstantiated claims gained support in... Indian-Muslim community," Mulford wrote in his secret cable to the State Department on December 23, 2008.
> 
> "Hoping to foster that support for upcoming national elections, the Congress Party cynically pulled back from its original dismissal and lent credence to the conspiracy," Mulford wrote.
> 
> Regardless of Home Minister P Chidambaram's dismissal of Antulay's comments, the Indian-Muslim community "will continue to believe they are unfairly targeted by law enforcement and that those who investigate the truth are silenced," he said in the cable.
> 
> "The entire episode demonstrates that the Congress party will readily stoop to the old caste/religious-based politics if it feels it is in its interest," Mulford alleged, according to the cable posted by WikiLeaks on its website on Saturday.
> 
> Mulford said while the killing of three high-level law enforcement officers during the Mumbai attacks, including ATS chief Hemant Karkare, "is a remarkable coincidence, the Congress Party's initial reaction to Antulay's outrageous comments was correct."
> 
> "But as support seemed to swell among Muslims for Antulay's unsubstantiated claims, crass political opportunism swayed the thinking of some Congress Party leaders," he wrote.
> 
> "What's more, the (Congress) party made the cynical political calculation to lend credence to the conspiracy even after its recent emboldening state elections victories. The party chose to pander to Muslims' fears, providing impetus for those in the Muslim community who will continue to play up the conspiracy theory," Mulford wrote in his cable.
> 
> ... the idea that the party would entertain "such outlandish claims proved once again that many party leaders are still wedded to the old identity politics," he said.
> 
> The 79-year-old Antulay "was probably bewildered to find that his remarks, similar in vein to what he would have routinely made in the past to attack the BJP, created such a furore this time," Mulford said.
> 
> The cable noted that Antulay "sparked a political controversy on December 17 with comments insinuating that the killing of Maharashtra Anti-Terror Squad (ATS) Chief Hemant Karkare by the Mumbai terrorists was somehow linked to Karkare's investigation of (Malegaon) bombings in which radical Hindus are suspected."
> 
> *WikiLeaks: Cong played religious politics post 26/11 - Rediff.com News*



Not surprisingly, Congress stalwarts are playing this game even today - here are current reports about recent statements by Digvijay Singh, who is extremely close to the Gandhi family: 

*Digvijay Singh's explosive revelations - Oneindia News*

*Karkare's widow slams Digvijay's comment - Hindustan Times*


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## ajtr

BENNY said:


> Democracy has its limitations and is not tolerent towards anything said in the name of freedom of speech.. Examples are comments on religion and comments that is against the integrity of nation.
> 
> Some people like to take pot shots against incident like these to satisfy their own egos.
> 
> Not so long ago, in my state a person has been attacked and removed from job on a similar incident where he insulted a religious person in a question paper.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/66425-blood-their-hands.html
> 
> There are some limits regarding exercising "freedom of speech".. a little use of grey matter actually helps in identifying and *justifying* it.


Incident of T.S.Joseph is similar to painter M.F.Hussian for which he was hounded out of india.


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## divya

Freedom of Speech always comes with * in the end

1. It does not give anyone rights to incite public emotions to conduct violence
2. It does not give rights to public to ask for sedition
3. It does not allow public to jeopardize the foreign and defense policy of the nation


No god damn person has right to curse my mother or father after coming to my home on the name of freedom of speech.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

introspection and debate are not even allowed in iOK

what a pathetic incident......as pathetic as the occupation itself


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## divya

ajtr said:


> Incident of T.S.Joseph is similar to painter M.F.Hussian for which he was hounded out of india.



And were treated very much correctly. India does not them as much as they dont need India.  So looking by the mutual interests they got what they wanted. No India for them.


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## divya

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> introspection and debate are not even allowed in iOK
> 
> what a pathetic incident......as pathetic as the occupation itself



Well forget about the debates when we can allow Kashmiries to debate here in Delhi despite the public anger forget about Kashmir....


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## StingRoy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> introspection and debate are not even allowed in iOK



Introspection and Debate have no place in exam papers... they can be done outside of the examination room.

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## KS

Bang Galore said:


> You should not be repeating this *rubbish*. No one has made an actual claim for terrorist incidents except for those attributed to IM. That doesn't stop us from holding to account, the LeT,JuD,JeM , does it? Without prejudging the Malegaon issue, it can still be said that the BJP should not have defended people accused of terrorism against Indian nationals before they were declared innocent by a court of law.



Says who ?? 

People alleged to be terrorists were killed in Batla House. Did that stop that loony Digvijay Singh from going to AzamGarh to show 'solidarity' with the 'innocent' victim's family and get celebrated as a 'secularist'??

Why is the stick always reserved only for the BJP/RSS ?

Mark my words - If the Malegaon blasts were proved *beyond doubt* to be the work of Hindu Right wing organisations, I will be the first one to condemn them.

But the 'initial reports', 'accusation', 'suspicions' by a blatantly Congress controlled ATS/CBI doesnt cut ice with me.



> "The entire episode(accusation of Hindu right-wingers killing Karkare) demonstrates that the Congress Party will readily stoop to the old caste/religious-based politics if it feels it is in its interest," - _David Mulford_



What is the guarentee that they are not upto it again ?



Bang Galore said:


> Agree with the above. Condemn it. I am consistent, you should be too. Doesn't make the Hindu right wing organisations any more correct if they use the same excuses that they hold up as untenable when used by others.



I too am consistent.Let the accusations on the Hindu Organisations be proved - I will condemn.

Till then I dont have any reason to believe a Congressi controlled organisation (ATS). And the recent Wikileaks ( above quoted) supports my argument.


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## Bang Galore

Karthic Sri said:


> People alleged to be terrorists were killed in Batla House. Did that stop that loony Digvijay Singh from going to Azam Garh to show 'solidarity' with the 'innocent' victim's family ??



Ya, nothing seems to stop that looney. Absolutely crazy, the way he is going on.


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## KS

ajtr said:


> Incident of T.S.Joseph is similar to painter M.F.Hussian for which he was hounded out of india.



Which again is similar to Taslima Nasreen being attacked by MIM goons.


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## Areesh

Salute to the Professor. Indeed it is a disgrace to Kashmir and Kashmiris(not sell outs like Farooq Abdullah) to call themselves Bharati.

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## KS

Its funny.

You are speaking on *THE* most important conflict between India and Pakistan and you say, 'LETS MAKE THIS A TROLLFREE THREAD'.

I admire your optimism, but current status says your optimism is wasted.


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## gubbi

Asim Aquil said:


> Ridiculous, its simple translation based questions and hearing the narrative of students and let them express their views. Examiners always set hypothetical question papers with a subject matter that is relevant to the times.
> 
> In India it is open season to squash all dissenting voices.



How are the questions related to *English* language, the subject the lecturer was supposedly teaching?

The lecturer's mandate is to stick to the subject matter he/she is supposed to teach. 

Oh and BTW, if he was so interested in all this "aazadi" BS, he could go to any of the *peaceful* rallies and express his views.


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## The HBS Guy

Areesh said:


> Salute to the Professor. Indeed it is a disgrace to Kashmir and Kashmiris(not sell outs like Farooq Abdullah) to call themselves Bharati.



Many people, including those in Jammu and Ladakh, proudly call themselves Bharatiya.:smile:


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## Areesh

KingKong31 said:


> Many people, including those in Jammu and Ladakh, proudly call themselves Bharatiya.:smile:



Damn where is the secularism?


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## Awesome

Kashmiris want Azadi from India, fact.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

forget about Kashmir? what you mean "forget about Kashmir"


Kashmir is the issue! Thanks for confirming that the rights enjoyed by indians do not apply in occupied Kashmir.









"forget about Kashmir"


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## The HBS Guy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> forget about Kashmir? what you mean "forget about Kashmir"
> 
> 
> Kashmir is the issue! Thanks for confirming that the rights enjoyed by indians do not apply in occupied Kashmir.



Rights and duties go together. Did they not teach you that in school?

Only someone who does his/her duty towards the nation is eligible to demand rights.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> "forget about Kashmir"



Cool down. Don't be frustrated. You're not getting Kashmir on


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## divya

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> forget about Kashmir? what you mean "forget about Kashmir"
> 
> 
> Kashmir is the issue! Thanks for confirming that the rights enjoyed by indians do not apply in occupied Kashmir.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "forget about Kashmir"



Hope you did not took it in literal sense.
thanks for taking all those who spoke in Delhi as Indians.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Kashmir isn't part of said nation, therefore your argument fails to hold.

and you aren't my psychologist, so no need for you to discuss my mood or feeling. I will say that to say "forget about Kashmir" when the whole topic encompasses the disputed territory is beyond belief or comprehension

good luck getting them to call themselves ''indian'' ........Even some of your ministers are coming to their senses and seeing the fallacies


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## Rig Vedic

ajtr said:


> Incident of T.S.Joseph is similar to painter M.F.Hussian for which he was hounded out of india.



Professor TS Joseph had his hand chopped off in Kerala for setting questions about the Prophet Muhammad.

MF Hussain left India on his own because he did not want to appear in Court. Nobody touched a hair of his head, much less cut off his hand.

Taslima Nasrin was hounded out of India because the fundamentalists could not tolerate freedom of speech. She was even physically attacked in Hyderabad.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

and Kashmiris will continue to revolt......Professors will continue to ask the pupils such relevant questions.

rest of your post was cheap ad-hominem garbage; no need to delve further


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## Avatar

Asim Aquil said:


> Kashmiris want Azadi from India, fact.



1- Did you take personal interviews of each one of them to arrive at this conclusion ? 

2- What is the process of demanding freedom from a free country ? 

3- All the Kashmiris I came across want to be with India and want to get rid of foreign militancy in their home state. Fact.

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## Avatar

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> and Kashmiris will continue to revolt......Professors will continue to ask the pupils such relevant questions.
> 
> rest of your post was cheap ad-hominem garbage; no need to delve further



The alleged "relevant" question is about a passage for punctuations. It is an imaginary conversation with god and a disciple. That passage is not the creation of Prof. T J Joseph. The excerpts in the question paper was taken from Page number -58 of the book Thirakathayude Neethesastram ( Screen Play Book) by PT Kunju Muhammad. ( a Muslim writer- who is an Ex MLA &#8211; member of the Communist Party of India- Marxist). The text book is an approved text by the Mahatma Gandhi University. The professor had shortened the name from "PT Kunju Muhammad" to just "Muhammad".

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## WAR-rior

Asim Aquil said:


> Kashmiris want Azadi from India, fact.



unfortunately they cant get it....its the ground reality if u accept or dont. militancy, peaceful struggle, etc.......wudnt make any difference at all.

india has strategic interest in kashmir. it wont pull back even an inch from the LOC. if kashmiris cooperate then they will get a beautiful life amalgamated with development and growth in india.....

now the choice is urs!

trying for impossible isnt a sane idea !


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## Gabbar

Asim Aquil said:


> Kashmiris want Azadi from India, fact.



PS:
But these Kashmiries dont include. People from Ladakh, Jammu, Kashmiri Pundits, other minorities.


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## KS

*Sorry to raise this question here also.(I have also posted in the Suggestions & Discussions)

What happened t the old format of having a Kashmir sub-forum under Strategic and Geopolitical issues. ?

This current form looks totally messy and chaotic with all the different replies to different poster in different threads under a single thread.

Please revert back the original scheme. It was my MOST viewed section and I miss it already.*


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## JonAsad

^^ maybe they want you out of the forum 

No Kashmiri fighting today?


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## Subramanian

Asim Aquil said:


> Kashmiris want Azadi from India, fact.



and they are not getting it.Period.


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## ajtr

Subramanian said:


> and they are not getting it.Period.


Then india will get azadi from kashmir.universal truth.


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## pulsar220

India taking necessary measures to protect human rights: Ban Ki-moon

UNITED NATIONS: India is taking necessary measures to ensure stability, prevent violence and protect human rights in Kashmir , UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon has said. 

"I understand that there have been discussions between India and Pakistan on all matters, including this Kashmir issue," Ban said at his annual year-end press conference here yesterday. 

"Leaders of the Indian Government have also been discussing among themselves and taking necessary measures, first of all, to ensure the stability and prevent violence there and also protect human rights," the UN Secretary General said. 

Ban's remarks came after he was asked about allegations of human rights violations in Kashmir. 

"I think that for that (alleged human rights violations) issue, my Spokesperson has been answering many times and I think I also gave my answer to that. 

"I would like to find out about specific cases - I am not aware but maybe I'll have my Spokesperson let you know," Ban said when asked about allegations of torture in jails.

India taking necessary measures to protect human rights: Ban Ki-moon - The Economic Times

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## Fighter488

*Torture tales: Leak singes India on Kashmir ​*

*New Delhi Rejects Red Cross Allegations Of Rights Abuse In J&K *

TIMES NEWS NETWORK 



*New Delhi:* *In a sharp and quick response to the WikiLeak disclosure about International Committee of Red Cross (ICRC) accusing India of committing atrocities in J&K, New Delhi said, there are legal mechanisms in the country to look into any aberration.* 

The foreign ministry emphasised in a statement that India is an open and democratic nation, which adheres to the rule of law. 

If and when and aberration occurs, it is promptly and firmly dealt with under existing legal mechanisms, in an effective and transparent manner. In India, there is a healthy tradition of democratic debate and freedom of expression on all issues that concern the welfare of our citizens anywhere in our country, it said. 

Neither have we shied away from an open and candid discussion on such issues when raised by our international friends and partners, it added. 

* Indian reaction came in response to one of the secret US embassy cables, released by WikiLeaks on late Thursday night. The cable says, The ICRC, which communicates its findings only to the government and shuns publicity, briefed American diplomats on widespread severe torture in Indian prisons in Kashmir between 2002 and 2004. The humanitarian organisation argued that the Indian government condoned the mistreatment, but pointed nonetheless to some signs of progress otherwise. 

The cable mentions that the ICRC staff made 177 visits to detention centres in Jammu and Kashmir and elsewhere (primarily the north-east) between 2002-04, and met 1,491 detainees  of which 1,296 were private interviews.* 

In 852 cases, detainees reported what ICRC refers to as IT (ill-treatment); 171 persons were beaten, the remaining 681 subjected to one or more of six forms of torture: electricity (498 cases), suspension from ceiling (381), roller (a round metal object put on the thighs of sitting person, which prison personnel then sit on, crushing muscles 294); stretching (legs split 180 degrees  181); water (various forms  234) or sexual (302). 

The ICRC stressed that all the branches of the security forces used these forms of IT and torture, says the leaked cable of US embassy from New Delhi. 

The cables of 2006 and 2007 show that US diplomats were concerned about widespread human rights abuses by Indian security forces, who they said relied on torture for confession. 

Al-Qaida supremo Osama Bin Laden had promised jihadis fighting in Kashmir that they will not run short of funds and was willing to divert $20 million to support Kashmir-oriented militancy, Indian officials were quoted as telling US diplomats by WikiLeaks. In a cable dated May 24, 2006 containing the details of a Joint Working Group meeting in Washington published by WikiLeaks, MEA additional secretary K C Singh was quoted as saying that India is now more prominent on al-Qaidas radar. PTI 



ToI feed dated 18 Dec 2010.
Fighter


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## rockstarIN

JonAsad said:


> ^^ maybe they want you out of the forum
> 
> No Kashmiri fighting today?



No man, we are participating in a protest call by Gilani..


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## absmonarch

YouTube - Dunya TV-Tonight With Najam Sethi-20-12-2010-3


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## ajtr

*UN help for kin of missing Kashmiris​*
MUZAFFAR RAINA
Srinagar, Jan. 2: The human rights wing of the UN has chipped in to help the families of Kashmiris who have been missing for the past two decades after the security forces allegedly picked them up.

The UN&#8217;s Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights has selected the Srinagar-based Association of Parents of Disappeared Persons (APDP) for a grant under its voluntary fund for victims of torture.

&#8220;The project will be implemented through the APDP. We have to undertake a survey to ascertain the number of disappeared persons across the state. Each case will be documented and we will also come to know the circumstances under which they disappeared or details of the agency (responsible for) their disappearance,&#8221; Zahoor Wani, the project coordinator, said.

The survey has started in the Srinagar and Kupwara districts. &#8220;The entire survey across the Valley will take six months. It will later be extended to Jammu,&#8221; Wani said.

The APDP believes that some 8,000 men have disappeared in the Valley, mostly while they were in security forces custody.

This is the first time that a UN body has come forward to help the families. New Delhi is averse to &#8220;outside interference&#8221; on Kashmir and has denied international human rights groups access to the state.

*&#8220;No family will be provided any cash assistance but the UN body can arrange legal and medical assistance. Additionally, the educational requirements of the children of the victims can also be arranged,&#8221;* Wani said.

The APDP has been fighting for years to trace the people who have disappeared. It has demanded that a commission be set up to probe the disappearances.

*&#8220;Our estimates are that some 8,000 men have gone missing in custody while the government puts that number at around 3,000. A survey approved by the UN will have more teeth and will help us pressure New Delhi into setting up a commission to probe these disappearances,*&#8221; an official said.

The state government, however, has variously estimated the number of the missing, from a few hundred to 3,429. It claims that many of them have crossed the border to receive arms training.

Ghulam Mohammad Bazaz, an elderly Srinagar resident, said he was happy that a UN body had come to the aid of those like him.

*&#8220;The BSF arrested my son Sajjad in 1992 but never officially admitted it. For the last 18 years, I have been fighting unsuccessfully to trace him. I want the UN to pressure India into punishing those who subjected my son to enforced disappearance,&#8221; *he said.


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## SpArK

*Hurriyat leader says end lies, our own killed Lone, Mirwaiz Sr​*
In the first such *admission by a separatist leader in the state, top Hurriyat leader Prof Abdul Ghani Bhat said here today that Abdul Ghani Lone and Maulvi Farooq werent killed by government forces but their own people.*

*Time has come to speak the truth. Neither the Army nor the police killed Lone sahib and Maulvi Farooq sahib but our own people, Bhat said while addressing a seminar on the role of intellectuals in the separatist movement.*

Hurriyat chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, the son of Maulvi Farooq, didnt contradict Bhat in his subsequent speech, and neither did Bilal Lone, the son of Abdul Ghani Lone.

This movement started with the assassinations of thinkers and the people who held an opinion, Bhat said, adding that if the separatist movement had to get anywhere, its leaders in the state needed to take into account their own follies.

We have to first accept and speak the truth about ourselves. We cant build a movement on lies, Bhat said in what may be one of the boldest criticisms of the separatist movement. A former Hurriyat chairman, Bhat is a moderate separatist and one of the ideologues of the conglomerate.

Maulvi Farooq and Lone were killed in 1990 and 2002, respectively.

The seminar was organised by the JKLF in the memory of academician Abdul Ahad Wani, a JKLF ideologue who was also assassinated by unidentified gunmen in December 1993.

Bhat said Wani too was the victim of mutual rivalry between militant organisations. India didnt kill him either.

Bhat also obliquely took on Hurriyat hawk Syed Ali Shah Geelani, saying the policy of hartals and martyrdom, without any strategy, had only damaged the Kashmir cause. There was a hartal for five months and 112 people died. And at the end of it there is nothing by way of achievement. This is what happens when there is no thinking, no strategy, Bhat said. If you want to rid people of Kashmir of sentimentalism bordering on insanity, you have to speak the truth.

Criticising deaths of people in endless strikes, Bhat said: These leaders still hail these sacrifices as if their only purpose is to get people killed... for the sake of it.

Ruling out unity between the Hurriyat factions, he said the Geelani camp only wanted a unity of hegemony. We are ready for unity. But if it is unity for dominance and unity for aggrandisement, we dont want it, Bhat said, referring to Geelanis insistence that his hardline policies on Kashmir be the agenda of a united separatist alliance


He criticised Geelani for rejecting a dialogue with the Centre when it comes to other separatists, but expressing himself game for it. When Geelani sahib meets parliamentarians, it is okay. When we do it, we are infidels, Bhat said. This dichotomy in Kashmir politics has to go.

Hurriyat leader says end lies, our own killed Lone, Mirwaiz Sr


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## SpArK

*Separatists got Kashmiri leaders shot: Prof. Abdul Gani Bhat*​







For the first time in the 20-year-long period of insurgency in Kashmir, a votary of the secessionist movement has made a brutally frank confession about the killing of some prominent men of his own ilk.


Abdul Gani Bhat (left) made the damning revelations at a seminar organised by the JKLF.
Prof. Abdul Gani Bhat, a leader of the Hurriyat Conference's moderate faction, categorically said on Sunday that the security forces had played no role in the killings of separatist leaders Mirwaiz Maulvi Muhammad Farooq and Abdul Gani Lone as well as Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) ideologue Prof. Abdul Ahad Wani.
Instead, he pointed an accusing finger towards an insider hand. "Lone sahib, Mirwaiz Farooq and Prof. Wani were not killed by the army or the police. They were targeted by our own people. The story is a long one, but we have to tell the truth," he said candidly. Bhat, however, did not elaborate on what had transpired when the murders took place. He also did not mention the name of any terrorist group which killed them.

The separatist leader made these comments while addressing a seminar on 'Role of intellectuals in the Kashmir movement'. The day-long meet was organised at a local hotel by JKLF chairman Muhammad Yasin Malik to commemorate Wani's death anniversary. The three leaders were slain in separate incidents, and on each occasion, the locals as well as secessionists had claimed that the security forces had taken them out.

On May 21, 1990, unidentified gunmen barged into the downtown Srinagar residence of Mirwaiz Maulvi Farooq - the father of Hurriyat Conference chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq - and assassinated him. Later, scores of people were killed when CRPF personnel fired upon his funeral procession near Islamia College in Srinagar.

Human rights groups claim that around 60 people were killed in the firing and hundreds of others sustained injuries. The separatists were quick to accuse the security forces of having carried out the murderous attack on the Mirwaiz. The firing on the mourners reinforced the ordinary Kashmiri's suspicions.

However, a TADA court jailed former militant Muhammad Ayub Dar last year for the killing. The CBI charge sheet said Dar, along with two other terrorists, shot the Mirwaiz. Its charge sheet named five Hizbul commanders also.

Wani was killed on December 31, 1993, by unknown gunmen. He was a professor of law in Kashmir University and an advocate of the JKLF's views. The academic was in the vicinity of the Hazratbal shrine en route to the university when he was shot.

Moderate Hurriyat Conference leader Lone, the father of Sajjad (the first separatist leader to stand in a general election) and Bilal, was killed on May 21 in 2002. He was gunned down by unidentified assailants at a rally to mark the death anniversary of Mirwaiz Maulvi Farooq at Eidgah ground in old Srinagar city.

The leader was fired upon seconds before the ceremony was to end. Bhat, then the Hurriyat Conference chairman, was also present at the rally. No charge sheet was filed either in the case of Wani's or Lone's killings.

Speaking at the meet on Sunday, Bhat, a professor of Persian at Sopore Degree College, said: "If you want to free the people of Kashmir from sentimentalism bordering on insanity, you have to speak the truth. Former Prime Minister of Pakistan Zulfikar Ali Bhutto once said that sometimes truth escapes the mouth. Here I am letting it out." He said the present movement against India was started by "us killing our intellectuals".

Bhat added: "Wherever we found an intellectual, we ended up killing him. Let us ask ourselves: was Prof Wani a martyr of brilliance or a martyr of rivalry?" Taking potshots at the hardline Hurriyat faction led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani, he said: "On the one hand, he (Geelani) refuses to talk to India and, on the other hand, he talks with the Indian parliamentarians. These contradictions will have to go." Slamming the rival group for adopting double standards, he said: "When we entered into talks with New Delhi, we were accused of being kafir (non-Muslim), and when you (the hardliners) talk you get away scot-free. This dichotomy in Kashmir politics should end."

Bhat refused to be a part of any unity process between the separatist groups initiated by Umar Farooq. He said he would not be associated with any such move that would mean the "hegemony or aggrandisement of any person", making an oblique reference to Geelani.

Significantly, he was the chairman of the Hurriyat Conference when it was split into the hardline and moderate factions.

He said in the five months during which a strike was observed this summer, the Kashmiris did not achieve anything. He added that the local intellectuals refrained from writing on the issue.

Bhat, who has travelled to Pakistan many times during the past two decades, said the neighbouring country would not fight a war over Kashmir with India. "It is unlikely as both the nations understand its consequences." He also ruled out an armed movement against India in Kashmir, saying: "It will not have support from any quarter." "What next? We should do the talking," he said.

Spelling out the benefits of holding a dialogue, he said negotiation was an art and the right way to move forward.

Umar Farooq, who spoke after Bhat, however, did not even broach the issue.

Earlier, Malik, in his address, said Sheikh Muhammad Abdullah was the tallest leader Kashmir produced in the past 63 years. But he said the Kashmir conflict dwarfed even the Sheikh.

"This holds true for all of us. Not one among the present crop of leaders should think that we are above Kashmir," he said.

Malik felt that in the past six decades, the Kashmiris had gained nothing.

"We have given sacrifices and gone through bitter experiences. But there has been no achievement," he said.

Separatists got Kashmiri leaders shot: Prof. Abdul Gani Bhat: LATEST HEADLINES : India Today

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## SpArK

Hurriyat leader says end lies, our own killed Lone, Mirwaiz Sr - KashmirLive.Com


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## VCheng

from _The Economist _Dec 29, 2010 issue:

*Shaking the mountains*
_India&#8217;s response to an uprising in Kashmir has been, by turns, repressive and complacent. It is storing up trouble for the future._
Dec 29th 2010 | SRINAGAR | from PRINT EDITION 

A GROUP of special Indian police barged into a white-painted, single-storey house on the crisp morning of October 27th. They let their lathis do the talking. The wooden batons were first rammed through all the windows, furniture and a television. When the grey-haired owners protested, the rods were turned on them. The police broke the husband&#8217;s leg and beat his wife&#8217;s flesh a sickly purple. Before leaving, the officers added an insult, hurling religious books, including a Koran, to the floor.

Such intrusions are common in Palhallan, a hillside settlement in the north of Indian-run Kashmir. It looks like an idyllic rural spot, where bushels of red chilies hang from the eves of steep-roofed wooden houses and hay wains jostle with shepherds in narrow streets. But the village has been caught up in months of violent protests that have roiled Kashmir. In 2010 an uprising led by youthful Kashmiri separatists left over 110 people dead and thousands injured. Youngsters daub anti-India slogans on walls, yell at Indian police and soldiers to &#8220;go home&#8221;, and hurl stones. 

In turn its residents have taken a beating. A young man lifts his hand to his head, showing a zip-like scar running from the crown of his skull to his neck. It is the result, he says, of a police battering. His lament is typical: &#8220;I am an unpolitical person, but they treat me like a terrorist.&#8221; Locals say they suffer collective punishment. Enraged officers usually fail to catch stone-lobbers, so lash out instead at families and residents nearby, accusing them, usually unfairly, of collusion

As a military helicopter buzzes overhead, a resident counts eight people killed and many more hurt in the area in the previous three months. Bitterness deepens with each injury and funeral. &#8220;The police,&#8221; he says, &#8220;they want to start a war.&#8221; A return to war, or widespread armed insurgency, is unlikely for the moment. But fury has spread, spurring some young Kashmiris to demand a more violent, more bloody response than mere strikes and stones. 

On November 10th three men in Pattan, a small town a few minutes&#8217; drive down the hill from Palhallan, took matters into their own hands. Hidden in the crowd of a bustling market they marched up to a pair of police constables, shot them at close range, snatched their rifles and fled. Both the policemen died. The Kashmiris have aped Palestinian methods, mobbing India&#8217;s ill-trained, sometimes panicky, police, by raining stones and broken bricks on them. 

The police&#8212;more in the habit of using sticks and bamboo shields&#8212;have struggled, fighting back with huge quantities of tear-gas (tens of thousands of canisters were fired in 2010) and then bullets. They have reckoned that any protesters who die have themselves to blame. Officials in Delhi bristle at any comparison between the year&#8217;s events and Bloody Sunday in Northern Ireland or the unrest in neighbouring Tibet. Kashmiris, they insist, have their own land and state, enjoy religious freedom, are by no means the poorest in India and take part in elections, most notably in 2008.

But there are severe limits to their democracy. Peaceful protests are prevented, jails are crammed with political detainees, detention without charge is common, phones are partially blocked, the press censored and reporters beaten, broadcasters muffled and curfews imposed. Those who complain too fiercely online are locked away. The authorities in Kashmir and Delhi say these measures are temporary. They say that to prevent abuses, the police are now being trained and re-equipped. (Soldiers, for the most part, have been kept away from street clashes.) Omar Abdullah, the chief minister of Kashmir, says that police officers may even be prosecuted for misdeeds. But the repression persists, and risks causing ever greater resentment and instability.

Seen from Delhi the uprising appears manageable. Kashmiris have dropped their guns and shooed away Islamic insurgents who a decade or so ago skulked in the postcard-perfect mountains. The presence of a 350,000-strong Indian security force (some say the number is much higher), amid a population of just 11m, has also kept the armed militants at bay. 

It helps India that Pakistan, the eternal trouble-stirrer in Kashmir, is in disarray. And India takes heart from the weakness and fractiousness of local leaders in Srinagar. Many have been bought off with well-paid posts, or jailed, or both. Moderates who attempt to reunite the parts have been locked up or worse (one was shot and paralysed by a mystery assailant). Some of the highest-profile ones, such as the stone-pelters&#8217; elderly icon, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, are kept under house-arrest. 

*Sticks and stones*

Some Kashmiris darkly hint of picking up guns again, but the local leaders have no appetite for large-scale violence, fearful of a return to the carnage of the 1990s when thousands died each year. Instead they encourage low-casualty options such as throwing stones and prolonged stay-at-homes (hartals). 

If such gestures have a goal, it is to gain attention. Young Kashmiris expose themselves to Indian bullets, hoping to draw compassionate outsiders&#8212;Barack Obama perhaps&#8212;to put pressure on India. Yet the strategy has so far achieved little. Outsiders, especially Western democracies once so cocksure and outspoken on human rights, now fret that their power is ebbing eastward. The Kashmiri separatists who suggest that &#8220;you people&#8221; or &#8220;Britain and America&#8221; could somehow chide India into a less repressive stance in Kashmir do not appreciate how eager Westerners are to court India as an ally.

The Kashmiris who have died in recent months have at least embarrassed India, which may yet respond by moderating the repression. But the radical separatists, who define azadi, the Kashmiri word for freedom, as outright independence from India&#8212;or even, for a shrinking number, incorporation with Pakistan&#8212;will not be placated. And nor will India consider letting Kashmir go.

Time appears to be on India&#8217;s side. With each passing year it will have more resources to throw north. The local economy, at least until recently, had been chugging along quite well, thanks to horticulture, tourism, funds from central India and heavy spending by the armed forces. A few Kashmiri expats had started returning and investing before the uprising in 2010. Development in itself will not fix Kashmir. But faster economic growth could at least prove a useful balm.

The government has made some political gestures. In September, an all-party delegation of Indian politicians&#8212;including even the Hindu-nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party&#8212;visited Kashmir. India&#8217;s prime minister, Manmohan Singh, made reassuring comments about addressing grievances there. The government in Delhi also pledged to send a high-ranking team of interlocutors to prepare a series of reports on Kashmir after consulting all sides in the conflict. A three-person team was eventually named in October.

These initiatives have started to persuade some in Kashmir of progress. But the team is made up merely of two academics and a journalist, people who carry no political weight. Nor does it help that they have already fallen into public squabbling. Kashmiris have watched their saga wearily. Some leaders have refused to meet the delegates, dismissing them as a joke. 

Conspiracy theorists in Srinagar, the capital of Indian-controlled Kashmir, accuse India&#8217;s generals of sabotaging politicians&#8217; peace efforts because the armed forces reap big rewards in the territory. More likely the central government in Delhi, run by the Congress party, is shy of Indian nationalists, who complain whenever concessions are considered for Kashmir. In October, a writer, Arundhati Roy, suggested Kashmiris might have legitimate complaints, and that Pakistan might have a justifiable interest in Kashmir. Hindu nationalists demanded she be tried for sedition. 

So Kashmir is left to smoulder, with dire consequences for its citizens. A visit to Srinagar&#8217;s psychiatric hospital shows throngs of patients, crowding around its overworked chief consultant. They relate a dismal roll-call of anxiety, stress, depression, alcohol and opiate addictions, child abuse and suicides. As Dr Mushtaq Margoob takes a break to munch a chapati and sip milky tea, he talks of Kashmir as a broken society. Some patients become destructive, he says, describing a mother who watched her son shot dead on the street and who then went on to burn down her own home and that of her neighbours. 

The most damaged, he concludes, are the youngest. &#8220;We see a collective anger, an aggressive, traumatised generation&#8221;, he says. The head of a think-tank talks of 600,000 young, educated, Kashmiri adults who are now jobless, waiting for some sort of guidance. Religious and political leaders fret that their youngest followers, teenagers, excited by the stone-pelters, are increasingly attracted by more radical ideas.

*Militancy stirs*

Worryingly, the youngsters talk openly of religious antagonism. Some ask why Kashmir&#8217;s Muslims do not turn on Hindus (many Hindu pilgrims visit a sacred spot in the state, but have so far been left unmolested) to seek communal revenge for repression. The head of a student movement, a man who has spent most of his adult life in prison and who is now on the run and hiding from police in the backstreets of Srinagar, warns of infuriated youngsters turning to a &#8220;battle of extinction&#8221; in which &#8220;others, not only Kashmiris, will be killed&#8221;.

As long as political leaders exist to channel, and moderate, the rage of the stone-pelters and innocent victims, such excited talk might be discounted. Mr Geelani, a frail octogenarian, is one such. He condemns India as &#8220;an occupying imperialist power&#8221;, but he is largely a moderating influence. He opposes any return to arms. He supports the pelters&#8217; goals, but not their methods. His practical demands, for the repeal of draconian laws, the end of police abuse and talks with the central government, are hardly off the wall.

But Mr Geelani&#8217;s influence is waning, along with his health. It is doubtful that anyone among a handful of potential successors could command as much local respect. The alternative could be more troubling. Some observers fear that as India succeeds in neutering Kashmir&#8217;s nationalist politicians, religious groups will flourish. 

A Wahhabi welfare organisation, al Hadith, which almost certainly benefits from generous Saudi funds, is quietly emerging as a powerful welfare, religious and cultural force. As others bicker, it has gone about building community centres, mosques, primary and secondary schools and clinics. It is seeking permission to set up a university. Its genial leaders deny being extremists, pointing to their love of education and computers; they say that in the planned university, women and non-Muslims will be enrolled too. 

As for claims that the group, which says it has 1.5m members, is spreading conservative values in a territory long known for its Muslims&#8217; religious tolerance, one leader concedes only a &#8220;little, little component of cultural shifting&#8221;. A few more women are wearing burqas, or staying at home, than did in the past. More Arab-style mosques are springing up.

The non-Muslim minority in Kashmir is much less sanguine, seeing al Hadith as a proxy for Saudi interests and a powerful example of the spreading &#8220;pan-Islamisation&#8221; of Kashmir. They fret that ties may exist to Wahhabis elsewhere, including terrorists, and warn that a powerful new force is rising in the territory, filling a vacuum created by India. Just now their concerns seem overblown. But the government in Delhi would be wrong to think of Kashmir as yesterday&#8217;s problem.
_
from PRINT EDITION | Asia _


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## VCheng

Editorial from _The Economist_, Dec 29, 2010:

India and Kashmir

*K is for complacency*
_India risks storing up misery over Kashmir. It should grab a chance to do something more positive _
Dec 29, 2010 | from PRINT EDITION 

MENTION Kashmir in polite Delhi society and noses wrinkle. Indians in the capital much prefer to talk of the economic boom, of India&#8217;s flourishing trade and its growing international heft. Old problems in the disputed, Muslim-majority territory in the mountainous north are waved off as a remote affair. They are not for foreigners to poke their noses into. And don&#8217;t begin to suggest that the world&#8217;s biggest democracy faces a growing problem in Kashmir, or that repressed Kashmiris have anything in common with the Palestinians or Tibetans.

Yet, in recent months, stone-pelting youths have launched their own intifada. Separatists have called for hartals, or self-imposed curfews, across the territory. And ill-trained Indian police have fired tear-gas and bullets with little care, killing over 110 people, mostly young and armed, if at all, only with crude projectiles. Deaths have spread bitterness, as have widespread reports of rape, torture and violent intimidation by Indian police (see article). The chances are high that the miserable cycle of protests, deaths and funerals will resume in 2011.

India&#8217;s leaders are at least a bit embarrassed. They have promised better-trained police and sent three independent (if junior) interlocutors to hear Kashmiri grievances. The team is due to report within days. Yet the authorities are also harrying nationalist leaders in the territory. Separatists are often jailed or kept under house arrest. Demonstrations are usually banned. Western leaders, keen to keep India &#8220;onside&#8221; against China and greedy for its markets, have kept disgracefully quiet about human-rights abuses. On his visit in November Barack Obama uttered the K-word in public only when he was pressed by a questioner to do so.

It is not all bad. One silver lining is that Pakistan, which once devoted much malign energy to supporting an insurgency in Kashmir, is now preoccupied with its own fragility. Kashmiris, however troubled, are unlikely soon to return to the widespread armed militancy that used to claim thousands of lives a year. But India&#8217;s crushing of more moderate Kashmiri leaders is fostering other problems. The young stone-pelters are turning radical and religious. A mostly nationalistic dispute risks becoming ever more theological in much the same way as that between Israelis and Palestinians did. 

A less complacent Indian government would work far harder to stop this slide. There is an immediate chance to seize the initiative while a winter freeze holds the troubled valley in its grip and before the pelting and shooting restart. It could signal that Kashmiris&#8217; grievances will be taken seriously, for example by acting on the interlocutors&#8217; report when it is released in January. Reducing the heavy presence of non-Kashmiris in uniform would ease tensions too. Cars cannot drive around Srinagar without manoeuvring past army roadblocks, snipers in pillboxes, lines of soldiers on the roadsides and military convoys. The security forces should be stopped from making arbitrary arrests. They should also allow nationalist political leaders to move and speak freely. That&#8217;s what democracies do.

*Look to the horizon*

In the longer term Indian leaders need to break their unhelpful silence on Kashmir&#8217;s prospects. The government will never allow the state to secede, let alone to join Pakistan. But India could agree to grant Kashmir greater political autonomy. It could concede that the army&#8217;s role in the territory will gradually diminish to one of mainly securing the line-of-control that divides it from Pakistani-run Kashmir. That would encourage the many Kashmiris who have taken part in Indian-run elections and who often accept in private that co-operation with India&#8217;s authorities would bring gains.

Perhaps India&#8217;s ruling Congress party, battered by corruption scandals, may not feel ready to brave Kashmir, especially if the opposition, the Hindu-dominated BJP, is hostile. Yet seeking reconciliation would be a sign not of weakness but of India&#8217;s growing confidence. Encouraging Kashmir&#8217;s moderate leaders is in the interests of all Indians&#8212;and of the West too. 

_from PRINT EDITION | Leaders _


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## Purepaki

absmonarch said:


> ----



agree with totally 
Its time for Pakistan to move on-- accept LOC as international borders


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## rockstarIN

*Hundreds of young Kashmiris throng police recruitment rally*

Srinagar: Hundreds of youngsters on Wednesday thronged the first police recruitment rally held in Jammu and Kashmir's Old City Srinagar after the recent summer unrest here on Wednesday. 

Hundreds of youth lined up in the Khanyar locality of Old City in summer capital Srinagar to join the local police. 


Wednesday's was the first on-the-spot police recruitment rally held in the politically sensitive Khanyar locality of Srinagar which had witnessed pitched clashes between the security forces and the protesters, mostly the youth, during the over four-month-long summer unrest in the valley. 


Over 100 people had lost their lives in clashes between unruly mobs and the security forces during the unrest. 


'The response to the recruitment rally proves that the youth here want to earn an honourable living for themselves,' Kashmir Inspector General of Police S.M. Sahai said. 


'Even those youth against whom minor charges of stone pelting cases might be pending are welcome to join the police force,' said Sahai, who supervised the recruitment rally to ensure that it was transparent and credible. 


The zonal police chief also said that it has been the intention of the police to recruit youth into the force from areas where their representation have been inadequate. 


'It is chiefly because of unemployment that some youngsters indulged in stone pelting this summer,' said Irshad Ahmad, an aspiring police officer. 


'Given a respectable job and an honourable opportunity to support our families, the youth would not waste themselves in anti-social activities,' Ahmad told reporters at the Khanyar recruitment rally. 


Wednesday's rally was part of the continuing effort by the state police to provide opportunities to youngsters to join the police force through hassle-free and transparent recruitment processes.


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## rockstarIN

*Govt contemplating troop reduction by 25&#37; in J&K: Pillai*
NEW DELHI: Jammu and Kashmir would see a 25% reduction in security forces and more bunkers would be lifted from Srinagar, home secretary G K Pillai said on Friday. 

"There will be a 25% reduction of security forces in Jammu and Kashmir, especially from populated areas," Pillai said at a symposium on the 'Way forward in Kashmir' organized by the Jamia Millia Islamia University. 

More bunkers will be lifted from Srinagar, he added. 

The home secretary said the three interlocutors appointed by the central government have been asked to give their final set of proposals for a political solution by April. 

The central government had appointed the interlocutors - journalist Dileep Padgaonkar, academician Radha Kumar and economist M.M. Ansari - in the wake of street protests in Kashmir and police action in which over 100 protesters were killed in the summer of 2010. 

The interlocutors were tasked with suggesting ways of bringing about sustained peace in the state. 


Read more: Govt contemplating troop reduction by 25% in J&K: Pillai - The Times of India Govt contemplating troop reduction by 25% in J&K: Pillai - The Times of India


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Bulshitsva....just like the fake ELECTIONS.


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## ajtr

*'India needs to reach out to Pakistan to resolve Kashmir issue'​*

Former veteran diplomat Teresita Schaffer has blamed the failure of successive Indian governments to address the plethora of grievances of the people of Kashmir for the resurrection of violence in the state.

Schaffer headed the South Asia Programme at the Center for Strategic and International Studies -- a Washington, DC think tank -- for the past 12 years before it was shut down and replaced by an India Chair funded by the Wadhwani Foundation. Her observations were published in the South Asia Monitor which she dutifully edited every month and circulated in administration and Congressional circles.

Titled Beyond Kashmir's Summer of Violence, the erstwhile foreign service officer with over three decades of experience working on and in South Asia, lauded the Manmohan Singh government for "finally making efforts designed to win the goodwill of the Kashmiri people by appointing a group of interlocutors with the aim of beginning a dialogue with civilians as well as separatist leaders."

Schaffer said in particular, the government's appointment of three non-politicians as 'interlocutors' with the Kashmiris 'has raised some hopes', but argued that "to get any real traction, such gestures will need to be supplemented with outreach to Pakistan, serious implementation of the interlocutors' recommendations, and stronger leadership within Kashmir."

She said the "nearly six months of regular violence in Kashmir have brought to the fore a new generation of protestors, unimpressed by the traditional separatist leadership and armed with stones -- and the Internet."

Schaffer slammed the state government headed by Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, which particularly in the first couple of months had "failed not only to reach out to the disgruntled constituents, but also to take charge of the situation," even as New Delhi "also stayed on the sidelines, appearing confused and unsure, as violence continued to escalate." 

She said that in these initial months of the Intifada (rebellion) when New Delhi should have moved fast its "failure to implement any major on-the-ground political initiatives to pacify the angry sentiments of the Kashmir people" had led to the exacerbation of the volatile situation."

Schaffer pilloried the Indian government's 'principal response' of deploying the Indian army on the streets of Kashmir "for the first time in more than a decade" describing it as a gesture that "has become synonymous with New Delhi's dealings with Kashmir -- countering violence with more violence." 

She said the current Intifada (rebellion) in contrast "to other periods of turbulence in the past 20 years, largely home-grown, spontaneous, and separate from the various political actors who have tried to position themselves as leaders of the people of the Kashmir valley."

"This new generation of educated, web-savvy, stone-pelting Kashmiris, frustrated by the unresponsiveness of the political leadership, years of violence, political alienation, and lack of economic opportunities, has turned to online forums such as Facebook and Youtube to highlight their frustration.'

Schaffer pointed out that "they are using social media not only to coordinate their weekly calendar of protests, but also to circulate videos that document the actions of the security forces."

Consequently, she said that this has achieved success "in attracting the attention of the mainstream Indian and international media that so often ignore turbulence in the valley," and reiterated that "these young people are strikingly different from their parents' generation in their refusal to take up guns or resort to militancy, which was the common phenomenon during the 1989 insurgency. For this generation, the weapons of choice are stones and the Internet."

Schaffer argued that "the recent discovery of thousands of unmarked graves believed to contain the remains of victims of unlawful killings in several districts across the Kashmir valley, and the Indian government's subsequent failure to investigate and prosecute the individuals responsible, is an example of the absence of accountability that fuels the anger on the streets of Kashmir."

She noted the statements made by the interlocutors, "that deviate from the standard Indian government vocabulary for dealing with Kashmir," particularly the references to Kashmir as 'a dispute', and the expression of the need to "listen to separatist views that are unpalatable in Delhi". Also their talking "about the necessity of Pakistan's participation in a solution on Kashmir," and the importance of "understanding the slogan of azaadi." 

Schaffer said that while this has provoked a backlash from nationalists in Delhi, it has "struck a chord in Kashmir."

She asserted that while the "most recent political moves involve the Indian government and the Kashmiris," trying to resolve the Kashmir dispute without involving Pakistan would be an exercise in futility. 

"While India has talked to Pakistan on a number of occasions in the past, and has also talked to the Kashmiris, it has never done both at the same time," Schaffer recalled, and added, "Further complicating the situation is the political weakness of the Pakistani government, which raises some questions about Pakistan's ability to move ahead politically if negotiators do achieve some kind of breakthrough."

She warned that "as things presently stand, spoilers based in Pakistan have every reason to try to sabotage India's efforts," and this reiterated that "India needs to reach out to Pakistan to give Pakistan a stake in success."

Schaffer also said "the burden is now on Delhi to demonstrate that the interlocutors are not simply another 'talk shop' and that the Indian government can deliver the needed policy changes. New Delhi needs to ensure that their recommendations are not mere cosmetic measures but serious proposals demanding immediate action and implementation." 
Image: A Kashmiri woman offers a prayer


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## A1Kaid

In order to militarily take Kashmir, Pakistan will need a strong offensive force considering Pakistan army's main purpose is defense (because PA is outnumbered). This leaves the task of taking Kashmir to designated divisions. More divisions should be raised and trained with the sole purpose of capturing an liberating Kashmir. These forces should consist of mainly or as much as possibly Kashmiri men if population recruitment will allow it. A large scale operation will have to be launched to clean up Kashmir to destroy and pound every enemy base, post, and position. Kashmiris will join PA is armed resistance which will be conducive.

Pakistan needs to better it's economy and in several decades take decisive action.


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## CONNAN

A1Kaid said:


> In order to militarily take Kashmir, Pakistan will need a strong offensive force considering Pakistan army's main purpose is defense (because PA is outnumbered). This leaves the task of taking Kashmir to designated divisions. More divisions should be raised and trained with the sole purpose of capturing an liberating Kashmir. These forces should consist of mainly or as much as possibly Kashmiri men if population recruitment will allow it. *A large scale operation will have to be launched to clean up Kashmir to destroy and pound every enemy base, post, and position.* Kashmiris will join PA is armed resistance which will be conducive.
> 
> Pakistan needs to better it's economy and in several decades take decisive action.



don't you think in the worst case scenario the above operation will lead to nuclear war


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Separatist Strike Shuts Much of indian-administered Kashmir​*


> SRINAGAR: Shops and businesses shut and road traffic was thin Friday across the Indian portion of Kashmir in response to a strike call by separatist groups to honor a pro-independence leader executed by India more than 25 years ago.
> 
> Police and paramilitary soldiers set up road checkpoints and banned assembly of more than four people to prevent protests in the Himalayan region, said a police officer on condition of anonymity as he was not authorized to speak to reporters.
> 
> Thousands of armed troops patrolled streets in Srinagar, the main city in Indian Kashmir, and other towns, while most public transport also stayed off the roads and the attendance was sparse in government offices.
> 
> Separatist rebels have been fighting since 1989 for the regions independence from India or merger with Pakistan. More than 68,000 people, mostly civilians, have been killed in the uprising and subsequent Indian crackdown.
> 
> Kashmir is divided between India and Pakistan but claimed by both in its entirety. The nuclear archrivals have fought two wars over the disputed territory since they gained independence from Britain in 1947.
> 
> Fridays strike was called by separatists to honor Mohammad Maqbool Butt, the founder of the separatist Jammu-Kashmir Liberation Front. Butt was hanged in New Delhis Tihar prison after a court found him guilty of killing an Indian intelligence officer and conspiring to kill an Indian diplomat, in Britain.
> 
> Butts family as well as separatist leaders have asked Indian authorities to hand over his remains for burial in the Himalayan region. The government has so far rejected the demand.  AP




Separatist strike shuts much of Indian-administered Kashmir | World | DAWN.COM


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## ajtr

*India to pull 10,000 troops from Kashmir​*

NEW DELHI: India plans to withdraw 10,000 paramilitary troops from Kashmir in 2011 and renew efforts to hold talks in the rebellion-hit Himalayan region, a top government official said Sunday.

A separatist insurgency has raged in Indian-administered Kashmir, a Muslim-majority state, for 20 years and at least 114 people died in street protests last summer in pitched battles with security forces.

&#8220;I think this year we can easily take out 10 battalions (10,000 personnel), if not more,&#8221; Indian Home Secretary Gopal Pillai told the Press Trust of India news agency.

&#8220;Irrespective of the situation, I can take out 10 battalions and it would not have any impact.&#8221;

There are currently 70,000 paramilitary troops in Indian-administered Kashmir plus 100,000-150,000 army soldiers.

Many state politicians in Kashmir believe their huge presence has fuelled recent deadly violence.

&#8220;There are more than adequate forces in Kashmir and it can do with less central forces,&#8221; Pillai, the home ministry&#8217;s top civil servant, said.

&#8220;You have to start talking to other people and get fresh ideas so I think we have to reach out to the people of Kashmir.&#8221;

Security forces opening fire at separatist demonstrations have triggered a cycle of violence in Kashmir over recent summers, and the government in New Delhi is keen to calm tensions in the year ahead.


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## ajtr

*Kashmiris asks world to attach permanent seat of India in UNSC with Kashmir issue solution​*
Published on: &#8901; February 23, 2011 &#8901; Post a comment
ISLAMABAD, (SANA): Kashmiri leadership has demanded of the international community to attach the issue of permanent membership of India in united nations national security council with the solution of Kashmir problem according to the whims of the Kashmiris.

This was said by the leadership of Kashmiris&#8217; living in Indian Held Kashmir and Azad Jammu and Kashmir during a &#8220;Roundtable Conference organized by Justice Foundation London&#8221; here in Islamabad on Wednesday.


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## Solomon2

CONNAN said:


> don't you think in the worst case scenario the above operation will lead to nuclear war


Perhaps there is another way out. In theory, India and Pakistan in 1947 committed to letting Kashmiris vote to accede to either Pakistan or India. The vote hasn't taken place, not only because India won't let it but because Pakistani leaders know (contrary to the myth taught in Pakistani schools) that Kashmiris may not want to be Pakstanis; that was the lesson of 1965.

But in 1971 Pakistan split in two. Doesn't that mean that rather than two choices Kashmiris now have three? What if Kashmiris voted to join Bangladesh? Their cultural and physical distance from the rest of the country would be enough to ensure their effective independence, the lack of Pakistani troops would reassure India, and the fact that the majority-Muslim province would no longer be ruled by Hindus would console Pakistanis.


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## KS

Solomon2 said:


> But in 1971 Pakistan split in two. Doesn't that mean that rather than two choices Kashmiris now have three? What if Kashmiris voted to join Bangladesh? Their *cultural and physical distance from the rest of the country* would be enough to ensure their effective independence, the lack of Pakistani troops would reassure India, and the fact that the majority-Muslim province would no longer be ruled by Hindus would console Pakistanis.


 
Actually dont you think that this 'distance' was the primary reason that caused United Pakistan to split into two ?


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## Solomon2

No, the anti-Bengali orientation of the West Pakistani leadership was. They dominated the government and the military despite their minority status and would not accept a democratically-elected government dominated by East Pakistanis who deeply wanted more autonomy from their domineering W.P. "brethren."


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## KS

Solomon2 said:


> No, the anti-Bengali orientation of the West Pakistani leadership was. They dominated the government and the military despite their minority status and would not accept a democratically-elected government dominated by East Pakistanis who deeply wanted more autonomy from their domineering W.P. "brethren."


 
.......And they were too distant to defend their land when the Indians played their game.

I hope you see the similarity.


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## Joe Shearer

Solomon2 said:


> Perhaps there is another way out. In theory, India and Pakistan in 1947 committed to letting Kashmiris vote to accede to either Pakistan or India. The vote hasn't taken place, not only because India won't let it but because Pakistani leaders know (contrary to the myth taught in Pakistani schools) that Kashmiris may not want to be Pakstanis; that was the lesson of 1965.
> 
> But in 1971 Pakistan split in two. Doesn't that mean that rather than two choices Kashmiris now have three? What if Kashmiris voted to join Bangladesh? Their cultural and physical distance from the rest of the country would be enough to ensure their effective independence, the lack of Pakistani troops would reassure India, and the fact that the majority-Muslim province would no longer be ruled by Hindus would console Pakistanis.


 
This is addressed to you in the faint hope that you will still be able to read with your tongue jammed so firmly in your cheek.

The serious bit first - like lint, serious stuff gets everywhere and is difficult to clean up. The trouble with most of us is that we don't really know what was conceded, by whom, when. Without weighing these columns down with URLs, which others will then jump in and try to refute with their own URLs, I suggest that you take a look at the actual resolutions by the Security Council - the original ones - first. It would help streamline things when talking about this mess.

Not seriously, even when Bengalis sent a Kashmiri across to Pakistan as a Prime Minister, hoping his obvious origins would tell in his favour, it didn't work. This particular candidate just happens to be perhaps the most pushed around about that hapless crowd of Keystone Kops that acted as PM in Pakistan before cold-eyed operators like Ghulam Mohammed and Iskandar Mirza got impatient and moved in.

Not seriously again, Bangladesh was not a choice in the original Independence Act. It can't be retrofitted.


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## EjazR

Solomon2 said:


> Perhaps there is another way out. In theory, India and Pakistan in 1947 committed to letting Kashmiris vote to accede to either Pakistan or India. The vote hasn't taken place, not only because India won't let it but because Pakistani leaders know (contrary to the myth taught in Pakistani schools) that Kashmiris may not want to be Pakstanis; that was the lesson of 1965.
> 
> But in 1971 Pakistan split in two. Doesn't that mean that rather than two choices Kashmiris now have three? What if Kashmiris voted to join Bangladesh? Their cultural and physical distance from the rest of the country would be enough to ensure their effective independence, the lack of Pakistani troops would reassure India, and the fact that the majority-Muslim province would no longer be ruled by Hindus would console Pakistanis.


 
I think most people don't realize that apart from the accession, the Kashmiris on the Indian side voted for a free and fair election in 1952 electing the constituent assembly of J&K. This assembly voted by the people of J&K unanimously passed a resolution ratifying the ascension to India. This pretty much solves the question on people's mandate.

Now ofcourse, after some years there was discontent not least caused by biased policies and political interference by the Union government in state affairs leading to widespread separatist tendencies, but that is after the fact that first generation J&K residents had already voted and ratified the ascension.

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## SpArK

*Bedi to coach Jammu and Kashmir Ranji team​*
SRINAGAR: Jammu and Kashmir Cricket Association (JKCA) on Sunday roped in legendary spinner Bishan Singh Bedi to coach state's Ranji and under-22 teams on a three-year contract. 

"We have signed a contract with one of the greatest left-arm spinners (Bedi) to coach our upcoming cricketers and inspire our senior cricketers to achieve excellence," JKCA president Farooq Abdullah told reporters. 

Abdullah said Bedi and his team will be coaching the Ranji team and the Under-22 of the state while coaches from the state will be associated with the former India captain. 

"Our coaches will also learn from the wealth of his experience and then they can pass it on to local cricketers," he said. 

Bedi, who was also present at the press conference, will begin his three-year deal with JKCA from August 1 this year. 

He said the main aim during his stint with JKCA will be turn the state team from just participants to competitors. 

"They are not going to (just) participate anymore. They will compete," the former India captain said. 

"We will be taking these players to others cities to familiarise with conditions there so that they can adapt to changing conditions (during competitions)," he added. 

Bedi said he was pleased to know that the JKCA was working on providing the right kind of infrastructure to the players from the state. 

Asked what the players from state lacked, he said, "I would rather focus on what they need. If they need a gym, then they should get it and if they need a video analyst, he should be made available."


Bedi to coach Jammu and Kashmir Ranji team - The Times of India


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## SpArK

*J&K police to organise ''Jashn-e-Dal'' at Dal lake​*

PTI | 01:07 PM,Jul 17,2011


*Srinagar, Jul 17 (PTI) In a bid to promote water sports in the Valley, Jammu and Kashmir police will be organising a three-day 'Jashn-e-Dal' at the picturesque Dal lake later this month.'Jashn-e-Dal' will include sports events, band displays and cultural items, a police spokesman said.


"The organisation has decided to promote water sports in the valley and for that purpose three-day long Jashn-e-Dal will be organised at Nehru Park at Dal lake," the spokesman said.The announcement to hold the Jashn-e-Dal, from July 29 to July 31, was made by Additional Director General of Police (Law and Order) K Rajendra Kumar at a meeting yesterday."The event will include various sports events like water polo, kayaking and canoe, swimming, shikara race, dragon boat race, demb boat race and kayaking and canoe half marathon. The winners of different events would be given cash prizes. The Jashn would also witness band display and special cultural items," Kumar said.Police are also organising a cycle race, in which more than 1000 cyclists from all the district of valley are expected to participate, later this month.*


J&K police to organise ''Jashn-e-Dal'' at Dal lake, IBN Live News


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## SpArK

*Children film festival begins in Kashmir​*
SUNDAY, 17 JULY 2011 19:47 SRINAGAR- KDNN


The first ever children film festival &#8220;Lukchar&#8221; for underprivileged children of the Valley started here today. The film festival is organized by Children Film Society of India in collaboration with space communication and was inaugurated by Minister for Tourism and Culture, Nawang Rigzin Jora here at SKICC.

During the festival films on various subjects and plays would be screened and staged for underprivileged children of the Valley.

Today a large number of children of various districts of the Valley viewed the film Kath-Putli besides a short play depicting child labour.

A musical cultural programme was also presented to show the ethos of Kashmir and its beauty.

Addressing at the inaugural of the festival, Jora said that such film festivals would provide opportunities to the children to explore their talent in a broader canvas.

He said literary and cultural activities are must for polishing our children to compete future challenges.

"Children film festival would be made annual feature of tourism activities in the State," the minister said.


Children film festival begins in Kashmir - Kashmir Dispatch


----------



## Dance

*J&K woman accuses army of gangrape, case lodged​*
Protests erupted in Damhal Hanjipora area of Kulgam district on Thursday after a 22-year-old woman alleged she was abducted and raped by two armymen. The police have lodged an FIR against two unnamed army personnel. Shafaqat Watali, deputy inspector general, south Kashmir, told 


HT, the woman, a resident of Manzgam village, around 100 km from Srinagar, had said the incident occurred on Tuesday. The men, according to her, belonged to 66 Rashtriya Rifles.
&#8220;First she accused some unnamed army personnel of abduction and rape. Then she retracted her statement and accused a local,&#8221; said Watali.

When the news of the allegation spread and the locals came out on the streets to protest, &#8220;we thought it prudent to record her statement again in presence of some prominent locals,&#8221; said the DIG. &#8220;Then she accused two army personnel again.&#8221;

The woman is yet to undergo a medical test. &#8220;But we have registered a case on the basis of her statement,&#8221; he said. &#8220;The army has promised full cooperation and we would be holding an identification parade of the army personnel on duty in the area.&#8221; The DIG said chief minister Omar Abdullah has instructed the police to take the public into confidence and investigate the case thoroughly.

Despite repeated attempts, army spokesman colonel JS Brar was not available for comments.

J&K woman accuses army of gangrape, case lodged - Hindustan Times


----------



## VCheng

This post may be better in this thread:



VCheng said:


> This is a recent column from _The Economist_ that makes some interesting points:
> 
> from: Summertime in Kashmir: And the living looks easy | The Economist
> 
> *Summertime in Kashmir*
> _And the living looks easy_
> 
> Jul 18th 2011, 9:40 by A.R. | SRINAGAR
> 
> 
> *WHEN newspaper-reading outsiders think of Kashmir these days, they understandably conjure images of stone-throwing youths, repressive soldiers, curfews and conflict. Yet in the lulls between confrontations, when Kashmir&#8217;s separatists pause from exhaustion and the number of militants creeping over from across the border is at low tide, another Kashmir flourishes.*
> 
> *It is tourist season now in Srinagar,* the summer capital of the state of Jammu and Kashmir. Not only is it much cooler here in the hills than down on the plains, it is also time for Hindu pilgrims, or yatris, to trudge up (or, more often, drive up) from humid and low-lying Jammu to visit the sacred site of a big ice stalagmite within a cave, the Amarnath temple. The way from Jammu to Srinagar, a picturesque and vertigo-inducing road that clings to cliff edges, somehow accommodates hurtling buses, lorries, army convoys and long lines of taxis and cars. There is little more to keep them from spinning off the ledge than cheery warning signs stuck up by the Indian army, suggesting &#8220;this is a highway, not a runway, don&#8217;t take off&#8221; and reminding those tempted to drink and drive that &#8220;life is risky after whisky&#8221;. It was crammed to bursting on July 17th, with the yatris pausing at roadside stalls run by fellow believers dishing out free food and water.
> 
> *Srinagar itself is breathing a sigh of relief that this tourist season, so far, has not been disrupted by the sort of violence that erupted each of the past three years. Indian police and soldiers are apparently better-trained, less heavy-handed, and so less likely to abuse locals in such a manner as to restart months of protest. In turn the locals, seeing what little they achieved during the previous summers&#8217; protests, beyond the loss of life and income, are focused for now on making a living.*
> 
> The many wooden houseboats on Dal lake, at the heart of the town, are crammed with holidaymakers. More surprising, and less welcome, is the presence of jet-skis roaring noisily in circles around the lake, while other tourists queue to take their turns. As surprising, staring over the lake from a rocky outcropping, is a newly opened five-star hotel, with no vacancies. Indian-brand coffee shops are sprouting in bunches.
> 
> *It is a reminder that Kashmir, for all its political misery, is not a poor place by Indian standards. Though there is high unemployment among Kashmiris, many of whom are quite well-educated, the state also draws in labourers from the rest of India to do menial toil. *Early in the morning the road south from Srinagar, towards an area where saffron is grown, is lined with young men from Bihar who are eager to work fields or on construction sites for a daily wage of about 200 rupees (about $4). Kashmir is in the midst, too, of a building boom, with young men needed to port bricks and sacks of concrete.
> 
> *Kashmiris remain roughly as well-off as the average Indian, keeping up with the rapidly growing national economy. And compared with Pakistan next door, where economic misery is matched only by the political kind, Kashmir looks increasingly well off.* Locals point out that despite the conflict (indeed, at times, because of it) these mountain valleys draw in money: in the good times tourism blossoms&#8212;even in the winter, when the more adventurous head to Gulmarg ski resort&#8212;and in the bad times horticulture and the handicraft industry keep plugging along. In addition the Indian state spends heavily in Kashmir, with various development programmes. And the presence of several hundred thousand soldiers in the state, for all the repressive ills it brings the Kashmiris, also adds significant demand for goods and services to the local economy.
> 
> *Few foreigners are evident in Kashmir at the moment, but with throngs of Indians hurtling about on jet-skis, packing out new hotels and cramming the roads, an unmistakable hum of orderly leisure fills the air. Foreign tourists, in time, may drift back too. **How long will this situation last? It could persist happily for years, or, as likely, it could end tomorrow.*


----------



## VCheng

... and this one too:



VCheng said:


> Here is another interesting article on the same subject:
> 
> from: Kashmir's future: Fleeting chance | The Economist
> 
> 
> Kashmir's future
> *Fleeting chance*
> _A brighter mood brings an opportunity. Expect India to squander it_
> 
> Jul 21st 2011 | SRINAGAR | from the print edition
> 
> *THESE are unexpectedly happy days in conflict-torn Kashmir. Tourists flock from India&#8217;s sweaty plains to gasp the mountain air. Srinagar&#8217;s hotels, houseboats and cafés are crammed. *Jetskis roar over the once-tranquil Dal lake. Hordes of Hindu pilgrims trek, unmolested, to a sacred penis-shaped lump of ice at Amarnath, a cave temple. And on roadsides Indian migrant labourers, mostly Biharis, line up to work in fields and on building-sites.
> 
> *Amid the bustle there is glee. *A father tells of his young children playing in streets that last year flew with stones and bullets. A man in Bandipur, a town north of Srinagar, previously protested against Indian occupiers but now worries more about cash: &#8220;tourism was gone last year, so now we need to make some money.&#8221;
> 
> *Such pragmatism is welcome.* Kashmir&#8217;s chief minister, Omar Abdullah, sitting on a terrace in his Srinagar home, says that almost 80% of voters turned out for recent panchayat (village) elections,* though he concedes that the vote does not signify acceptance of Indian rule.* *Protests over the past three years led in 2010 to five months of curfews, boycotts of shops, offices and schools&#8212;known as hartals&#8212;and stone-throwing by youngsters. Brutal and ill-trained security men responded by shooting dead more than 110 Kashmiris.*
> 
> *People would doubtless do it again, if called out. But many are fed up with staying home or getting shot at for no gain. **Parents fret that their children are flunking exams; traders worry about lost earnings. Some fear that traumatised youngsters may become extremists, swapping stones for bombs or guns.*
> 
> *The authorities have also grown cannier. More than 1,000 young men are said to have been locked away as a precaution. Many separatists are behind bars or, like the most notable leader, the octogenarian Syed Ali Shah Geelani, under house arrest. The police have been taught, at long last, to use non-lethal force against unarmed crowds.* And officials, not stick-wielding security thugs, are now supposed to respond when humdrum grievances&#8212;a broken water pipe, say&#8212;bring people on to the street. Mr Abdullah, whose hair is fast turning grey, says &#8220;our entire exercise is in not giving these people a trigger to start the protests again.&#8221;
> 
> The wider background may help. Kashmir&#8217;s separatists were quick to condemn a triple bombing in Mumbai on July 13th that killed 20. *In Kashmir itself there are still occasional clashes: on July 15th a handful of fighters, allegedly from Lashkar-e-Taiba, a terrorist group based in Pakistan, died in a shoot-out. But the army says militancy is down to a &#8220;subcritical&#8221; level. And though sullen-looking armed men in uniform are everywhere, dozens of military roadblocks that choked Srinagar last year have been cleared. *Some soldiers might return to barracks, easing the locals&#8217; sense of being under the Indian army boot.
> 
> *Militants and pro-Pakistanis alike are also subdued because they fear that Pakistan is succumbing to dire economic and security problems. The talk is of &#8220;betrayal&#8221; by the government in Islamabad.* When the foreign ministers of India and Pakistan hold rare bilateral talks in Delhi on July 27th, they will not discuss Kashmir&#8217;s status. Nor are Pakistan&#8217;s beleaguered army and spies likely to restore the backing for fighters in Kashmir which they reduced after the 2008 Mumbai terrorist attacks.
> 
> *As a result, India has space to do something on its own. Previous lulls were cues for it to neglect Kashmiri grievances, speeding up the return to protest. Possibly things might be different this time. Modest efforts to build trust are under way, such as allowing barter trade of farm goods with the Pakistani-run bit of Kashmir. That could be followed by letting more people cross the border to visit relatives. Braver steps would earn a response from moderate Kashmiris, whose most bitter complaints concern restrictions on daily life, rather than being part of India.*
> 
> *One step would be to hold India&#8217;s security services to account for last year&#8217;s killings. *If Kashmiris thought the army and India&#8217;s politicians were concerned about their plight, they might be less resentful. Mr Abdullah says he expects prosecutions to follow current inquiries. *The lifting of harsh emergency laws&#8212;both at the state level and under a centrally imposed armed forces act&#8212;is long overdue.*
> 
> Timing matters. *The Indian authorities move slowly, more worried about seeming soft on separatism to Indian voters than about winning the trust of Kashmiris. Yet delays raise the chances of renewed protest and play into the hands of hardliners.* In April the moderate leader of a fundamentalist Wahhabi organisation, al-Hadith, was blown up as he arrived at a mosque in Srinagar. Suspicion points at extremists within the group, whose following is growing. Thankfully, neither bloody protests nor revenge attacks followed. Next time could be different.
> 
> from the print edition | Asia


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## RPK

Kashmiri call centre gives flicker of hope to a bleak future | The Australian


*Kashmiri call centre gives flicker of hope to a bleak future*
IT IS one of the world's most volatile regions - a flashpoint between two nuclear-armed states that has become an economic backwater.

Now, India's IT revolution has arrived in Kashmir with the opening of the state's first call centre, in the city of Srinagar.

The 230-seat centre, which handles calls mostly from customers in other parts of India, may be relatively small compared with the huge operations found in cities such as Bangalore and Chennai that serve companies based in Europe and the United States.

Nevertheless, it represents a ray of hope amid an otherwise bleak economic outlook in Kashmir, a mainly Muslim region that is claimed by both India and Pakistan.

The call centre is operated by Aegis, an outsourcing company owned by Essar Group, part of the business empire of Mumbai-based billionaires the Ruia brothers.


It employs 50,000 people worldwide and last month opened its first European call centre in Manchester.

A spokesman for the group said that Aegis planned to more than double the size of the centre in Srinagar to 500 positions.

Much of its work involves handling calls from customers in India's booming mobile phone market, which is adding 15 million subscribers a month.

Despite the region's political problems, the attractions of locating in Kashmir for companies such as Aegis are clear.

With 500,000 unemployed, there is no shortage of willing job applicants, while wages in Kashmir are among the lowest in India.

Although the security problems are profound, there are signs that the situation may be improving.

After violence last summer in Kashmir, this year has been relatively calm, and there is a growing recognition among Indian politicians that economic growth is essential to help bring a resolution to a 22-year conflict in the state.

The Indian Government is keen to harness its $US1.6 trillion ($1.57 trillion) economy, which is growing at 8 per cent a year, to help to integrate Kashmir into the rest of the country.

As well as launching a program of development and job creation, it is spending $US2.5 billion on a new rail link and has awarded grants of more than $US800m a year to the region.


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

*Eid Prayers Turn into Protests in Kashmir*



> SRINAGAR: Thousands of demonstrators on Wednesday staged noisy anti-India protests in revolt-hit Kashmir after prayers to mark the end of the Muslim fasting month of Ramazan.
> 
> Thousands of Muslims poured into the streets, shouting, We want freedom! and Allah is great, after offering Eid prayers in the northern town of Sopore, about an hours drive from Srinagar.
> 
> The protests were led by separatist Syed Ali Geelani following prayers for the Muslim Eidul Fitr festival.
> 
> Geelani addressed a huge gathering in Sopores main square, urging India to end its occupation of Kashmir.
> 
> People of India are our brothers. We have no animosity towards them. We only urge India to end its occupation of Kashmir, Geelani said, as mainly young Kashmiri men chanted: Go India, go back!
> 
> Sopore was once the bastion of pro-Pakistan militants but in recent years the guerrilla presence has lessened following the start of a peace process between India and Pakistan.
> 
> Kashmir is in the grip of a more than 20-year-old insurgency against Indian rule that has left more than 47,000 people dead.
> 
> Indian-administered Kashmir remains under heavy military control but this summer has not seen the cycle of violence and strict curfews that hit the disputed Himalayan region in recent years.
> 
> Kashmir is divided between India and Pakistan, but claimed in its entirety by both nations. The dispute has triggered two of the three wars fought by the neighbours since independence from colonial rule in 1947.



Eid prayers turn into protests in Kashmir | World | DAWN.COM


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## Vinod2070

Indian army is doing a fantastic job in making sure the Kashmiris have a safe Eid and their men and women protected from being raped by the same barbarians who raped them in 1947-48 before the IA kicked them out.

The same ones who also killed the Shia in thousands in Northern areas with Bin Landen and Musharraf.

*The Pathan tribesman under Khurshid Anwars command halted after reaching Baramulla, only an hours bus ride from Srinagar, and refused to go any further. Here they embarked on a three-day binge, looting houses, assaulting Muslims and Hindus alike, raping men and women and stealing money from the Kashmir Treasury. The local cinema was transformed into a rape centre; a group of Pathans invaded St Josephs Convent, where they raped and killed four nuns, including the Mother Superior, and shot dead a European couple sheltering there. News of the atrocities spread, turning large numbers of Kashmiris against their would-be liberators. When they finally reached Srinagar, the Pathans were so intent on pillaging the shops and bazaars that they overlooked the airport, already occupied by the Sikhs.*

Tariq Ali · Bitter Chill of Winter: Kashmir · LRB 19 April 2001
*
You can go a few more years earlier in 1984 when General Zia sent his notorious lashkar led and supervised by no other than Brigadier Musharraf aka General Musharraf, the enlightened, the moderate. This proto-Talibanic lashkar not just burnt alive hundreds of the Shias of Gilgit, it burnt alive the animals too owned by the Shias. Of course, this can be justified because those animals were not human, Muslim, or Pakistani.*

Talibanization of the heart | Pak Tea House

I am glad the IA is there to protect our Indian Kashmiris from these crazies. Some others are not so lucky.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

most of the rapes you talk about were committed by the occupation forces (sissies)


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Kashmir debate in House of Commons lauded | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online



> Kashmir Council EU Chairman has hailed the recent debate on Kashmir issue at the British Parliament.
> 
> In a statement issued from Brussels, Ali Raza Syed appreciated the British Parliamentarians for projecting the violations of human rights by the Indian authorities in Occupied Kashmir, says a message received here on Sunday.
> 
> He said, the first debate in the British House of Commons on Human Rights violations in the held territory of Jammu and Kashmir was an important step towards acceptance of the issue of Kashmir at the international level.
> 
> He said that it was a big development, which may motivate the other countries to take the similar steps to acknowledge the right of self determination of the Kashmiris. It would also encourage the Kashmiris to raise further their problems before the International Community.
> 
> Ali Raza Syed said that India was involved in massive human rights violations in the held territory and no one of the Kashmiris was safe and secure from Indias cruelties for last 64 years.
> He underlined that Indian forces had already killed more than one hundred thousand people and thousands of Kashmiris have been disappeared in the custody.
> 
> He expressed concern over the plight of illegally detained Kashmiri Hurriyet leaders and activists in different jails and interrogation centres in and outside the occupied territory.
> 
> Ali Raza Syed pointed out that the world community should send a fact-finding team to Indian Held Kashmir to investigate the discovery of unmarked graves in Held Kashmir and identify the persons buried in them.
> 
> The International Criminal Court should take action to investigate issue of the mass graves and punish the people involved in such crimes against the humanity.
> 
> He said, in its recent report, Indian National Commission for Human Rights has confirmed the discovery of mass graves in IHK.
> 
> We as Kashmiri have many times raised that Indian forces committed severe crimes against the humanity in the held territory and now, it is obligation of the international community to stop the crimes, he asked.
> 
> The Chairman Kashmir Council EU appealed the world community to press India to resolve Kashmir problem according to wishes of people of Kashmir. It is duty of the international community to play an effective role in ending the hardships of the people of Kashmir, he urged.

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## Windjammer

*
Supreme Court Chides Army Over Pathribal Killings*

The Supreme Court has criticized Indias army for failing to investigate soldiers that have allegedly committed human rights abuses in Kashmir.

The court is hearing a case over whether to allow Indian authorities to press ahead with an investigation over the killing of five innocent men in the Pathribal district of Kashmir in 2000.

In 2006, the Central Bureau of Investigation, Indias federal investigation body, indicted five soldiers for the deaths. But the army went to court to stop the investigation, citing the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, a law which shields soldiers in Kashmir from prosecution by civilian courts.

The Supreme Court now wants to know why the army also failed to take internal disciplinary action against the soldiers.

According to a report in The Hindu, Justice Swatanter Kumar complained to additional solicitor-general, P. P. Malhotra, who is representing the army, that, You dont want to take over the case and initiate court martial proceedings against them. You dont allow the criminal justice system to go ahead.

In response, Mr. Malhotra said, We cannot take over the case. The Armed Forces are bound to protect their men.

The court in November had given the government until mid-December to decide whether to allow the CBI to push ahead with its investigation.

That deadline came and went without any decision and the case rolls on.

The Congress party-led government of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh appears unwilling to take a decision, caught between the Defense Ministry, which supports the armys position, and the Home Ministry, which wants revision to the AFSPA but has been unwilling to fight for it publicly.

Violence has dropped sharply in Kashmir in recent years as the flow of Pakistan-backed militants into the state has dried to a trickle.

Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah has argued strongly that the lull offers a chance to improve the militarys image by ending immunity for army personnel in some areas and rolling back Indias massive security presence in peaceful areas of the state.

Authorities have scaled back security bunkers in the states capital, Srinagar. But the state remains heavily militarized  with over 500,000 security personnel in situ  and the army has taken a rigid line on the immunity issue, arguing that any changes would make it impossible for soldiers to operate in a civilian environment.

Faced with the armys intransigence, Mr. Abdullah, whose party is allied with the Congress in the local government, has begun to show signs of exasperation.

The defense that the army has taken is that they have a mechanism in place to punish the guilty without recourse to civilian courts, Mr. Abdullah told NDTV on Tuesday. But if theyre not going to do it, there are more questions that are left unanswered.

There have been many fake encounters in Kashmir since an open rebellion against Indian rule began there in 1989. The Pathribal killings have attracted the most publicity.

In 2000, 35 Sikhs were killed in the Chittisinghpura district of Kashmir as former U.S. President Bill Clinton was visiting India. Security forces later that year shot dead five men in Pathribal and claimed they were foreign militants guilty of killing the Sikhs.

Local authorities carried out DNA tests on the corpses which showed they were in fact locals. Officials then asked the CBI to investigate.

Supreme Court Chides Army Over Pathribal Killings - India Real Time - WSJ


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## Bhairava

Vinod..Thanks for the info. Thanks to their carnal urges atleast Sri Nagar and the rest of Kashmir was saved from their rape and pillage. Had not Nehru dilly dallied with his options and adopted a more effective policy, even the Shias of Gilgit could have been saved from those barbarians. But unfortunately,for them, that was not to be.

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## Yeti

The response to the J&K government's surrender policy for militants who crossed over to ***************** Kashmir (***) has peeved Hizbul Mujahideen chief Syed Salahuddin. 

The rehabilitation policy of giving safe passage to militants who want to return to J&K from training camps across the LoC - though not yet implemented - has received a response encouraging enough to create ripples in the Hizbul camp in ***. 

'The most precious thing for a human being is honour and dignity. I put a curse for one thousand times on those who return to Kashmir in a way they have to surrender before and seek forgiveness from the enemy and go behind bars,' Salahuddin, head of the United Jehad Council, said in Muzaffarabad on Saturday.


In February 2010, chief minister Omar Abdullah had promised amnesty to militants who crossed over to *** for arms training but wanted to surrender and return. 

The idea also found support with Union home minister P. Chidambaram. 

To seek benefits under the rehabilitation policy, parents of the youths who had crossed over were required to approach the police certifying that their son(s) want to return and live a normal life. 

Those who have crossed over are required to write to their families in J&K to get their cases listed. 

Their claim of innocence would be verified by security agencies before being cleared by the Union home ministry. 

Officials in the home department said it has received 1,034 applications under the policy from the parents of youths who want to return home. 'Out of these applications, 67 cases have been recommended to the Union home ministry for a final decision. 

We are still waiting for the home ministry's response,' a senior official said. But Salahuddin was undeterred. 'We will return but with weapons and the flag of freedom in our hands. Let me declare once again that Allah willing the armed struggle of Kashmiri Mujahideen will continue. 

The political struggle of Kashmiri people will also continue under the guidance of a sincere and unified political leadership and the diplomatic struggle will be carried forward by the Kashmiri expatriates,' he said. 

'But, the deciding front which will compel India's 7.5 lakh army personnel to quit our motherland is the Jihadi front,' he added, ruling out any 'compromise or concession'. 

Salahuddin said the militant leadership was not opposed to trans-Kashmir trade but added that there should not be any misconception that the trans-LoC travel or trade was a 'blessing of the sacrifices of Kashmiris'. 'Our basic demand is complete withdrawal of Indian troops,' he added. 

'The struggle will continue until the people of J&K will decide their fate through a free plebiscite after withdrawal of Indian troops,' he said.


Kashmir training camps: J&K government's surrender policy raises Hizb heckles | Mail Online


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## Skies

Long time no news about Kashmir. Do the Pakistanis give up? Or Kashmiries have lost morale?


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## Paan Singh

Skies said:


> Long time no news about Kashmir. Do the Pakistanis give up? Or Kashmiries have lost morale?




you are right.


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## SpArK

*2011: The most peaceful year in Kashmir
*

*The data says it all*

Greater Kashmir newspaper (and it is not an India-friendly publication) gets hold of police data on militancy-related incidents in the state of Jammu and Kashmir. Here is a quick recap:


189 militancy related incidents in 2011, compared to 488 in 2010

183 militancy related casualties in 2011, compared to 375 in 2010

34 civilians and 30 security personnel died while 119 militants were killed in 2011, compared to 36 civilians, 69 security personnel and 270 militants in 2010

4 districts with double digit incidents of militancy: Srinagar, Baramulla, Kupwara and Pulwama in Kashmir region

13 districts with single digit incidents of militancy: Budgam, Ganderbal, Kulgam, Anantnag, Shopian and Bandipora in Kashmir region; Kishtwar, Ramban, Doda, Poonch, Rajouri and Udhampur in Jammu region

7 districts are militancy-free: Leh and Kargil districts of Ladakh region; Samba, Jammu, Kathua, Reasi and Doda districts of Jammu region


After the turbulent summer of 2010, it was a huge turn-around for the state in 2011. 

It left many self-styled Kashmir analysts with egg on their faces. If the state government headed by Omar Abdullah got the flak for its inept handling of the situation in 2010, it justifiably deserves credit for what it achieved last year. Of course, the stinginess in praise comes as no surprise considering the hypocritical nature of our left-liberal commentators. Thankfully, it doesnt matter as long as the situation on the ground is evident to everyone  and can be backed by data.

Does it mean there isnt anyone left in Kashmir who still wants Azadi (though no two persons can define Azadi the same way) and harbours anti-India sentiments? Of course, there are more than a handful of that variety in certain urban pockets of Kashmir Valley. But as long as the state is able to ensure peace and security for the majority of Kashmiris, the anti-India ruck doesnt matter. 

You need an environment where students can attend schools, a shopkeeper can open his shop, a dailywager can earn his daily wage, a transporter can ply his truck, a farmer can sell his produce and tourists can visit the state without having to worry about a grenade or a bomb going off. Maintaining peace and ensuring security is essential, though not sufficient for attaining normalcy in Kashmir. The state government has been able to get the essential part right.

*Building on this reduction in militancy, the state assembly has approved the amendments to the much-maligned Public Safety Act. Of course, this development has gone unnoticed lest it forces some commentators to acknowledge the good work put in by the state government.*


2011: The most peaceful year in Kashmir | Pragmatic Euphony

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Good to see that. But its bad news for india which will be at odds with how to find ways to further justify the AFSPA and further try to find ways to malign or blame ''ISI'' 

I'm happy to see that Kashmiri freedom fighters are adopting new and peaceful yet as effective means to highlight and address their plight.

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## Vinod2070

I will be happy to see the Pushtun question in Pakistan and Afghanistan resolved as well.


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## KS

Meanwhile in Kashmir...

Preparations begin for Amarnath pilgrimage



> Upbeat after a record half a million pilgrims visited the Amarnath cave shrine in the Kashmir Valley last year, the Jammu and Kashmir Tourism Department has begun preparations for a "smooth and safe" pilgrimage this year



Om Namah Shivaya...


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Windjammer said:


> *
> Supreme Court Chides Army Over Pathribal Killings*
> 
> The Supreme Court has criticized India&#8217;s army for failing to investigate soldiers that have allegedly committed human rights abuses in Kashmir.
> 
> The court is hearing a case over whether to allow Indian authorities to press ahead with an investigation over the killing of five innocent men in the Pathribal district of Kashmir in 2000.
> 
> In 2006, the Central Bureau of Investigation, India&#8217;s federal investigation body, indicted five soldiers for the deaths. But the army went to court to stop the investigation, citing the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, a law which shields soldiers in Kashmir from prosecution by civilian courts.
> 
> The Supreme Court now wants to know why the army also failed to take internal disciplinary action against the soldiers.
> 
> According to a report in The Hindu, Justice Swatanter Kumar complained to additional solicitor-general, P. P. Malhotra, who is representing the army, that, &#8220;You don&#8217;t want to take over the case and initiate court martial proceedings against them. You don&#8217;t allow the criminal justice system to go ahead.&#8221;
> 
> In response, Mr. Malhotra said, &#8220;We cannot take over the case. The Armed Forces are bound to protect their men.&#8221;
> 
> The court in November had given the government until mid-December to decide whether to allow the CBI to push ahead with its investigation.
> 
> That deadline came and went without any decision and the case rolls on.
> 
> The Congress party-led government of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh appears unwilling to take a decision, caught between the Defense Ministry, which supports the army&#8217;s position, and the Home Ministry, which wants revision to the AFSPA but has been unwilling to fight for it publicly.
> 
> Violence has dropped sharply in Kashmir in recent years as the flow of Pakistan-backed militants into the state has dried to a trickle.
> 
> Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah has argued strongly that the lull offers a chance to improve the military&#8217;s image by ending immunity for army personnel in some areas and rolling back India&#8217;s massive security presence in peaceful areas of the state.
> 
> Authorities have scaled back security bunkers in the state&#8217;s capital, Srinagar. But the state remains heavily militarized &#8211; with over 500,000 security personnel in situ &#8211; and the army has taken a rigid line on the immunity issue, arguing that any changes would make it impossible for soldiers to operate in a civilian environment.
> 
> Faced with the army&#8217;s intransigence, Mr. Abdullah, whose party is allied with the Congress in the local government, has begun to show signs of exasperation.
> 
> &#8220;The defense that the army has taken is that they have a mechanism in place to punish the guilty without recourse to civilian courts,&#8221; Mr. Abdullah told NDTV on Tuesday. &#8220;But if they&#8217;re not going to do it, there are more questions that are left unanswered.&#8221;
> 
> There have been many &#8220;fake encounters&#8221; in Kashmir since an open rebellion against Indian rule began there in 1989. The Pathribal killings have attracted the most publicity.
> 
> In 2000, 35 Sikhs were killed in the Chittisinghpura district of Kashmir as former U.S. President Bill Clinton was visiting India. Security forces later that year shot dead five men in Pathribal and claimed they were foreign militants guilty of killing the Sikhs.
> 
> Local authorities carried out DNA tests on the corpses which showed they were in fact locals. Officials then asked the CBI to investigate.
> 
> Supreme Court Chides Army Over Pathribal Killings - India Real Time - WSJ



seems like a RUSE....is this the same SC that authorized and put into effect the draconian armed forces special powers act?


----------



## Joe Shearer

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> seems like a RUSE....is this the same SC that authorized and put into effect the draconian armed forces special powers act?



No, there is no ruse.

Your confusion is understandable. For your easier understanding, in India, courts are courts, not rival legislatures in disguise. Courts do not 'authorize', still less do they put into effect any acts. The Supreme Court (the Indian Supreme Court) had nothing to do with AFSPA.

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## BLACKEAGLE

"Poll: So, is new media only reinforcing old stereotypes?"

I don't understand the question here. Which old stereotypes?!

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## SpArK

Kashmir is throbbing with tourists after a long time : North, News - India Today

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## Yeti

Jammu: All State Kashmiri Pandit Conference president Pandit Amar Nath Vaishnavi died at his residence in Jammu after a brief illness last evening. He was 87.

As their leader, Vaishnavi had led the Kashmir Pandit (KP) community for past several decades and became the first president of Yuvik Sahba (Sheetal Nath).

Born in Srinagar in 1925, Vaishnavi fighting for the country's Independence was jailed several times, including during the Emergency in 1975.

He had headed the Sahita Samiti, which provided relief and food to the displaced KPs soon after their migration from the Valley to Jammu and other areas in the region in 1990.


"Vaishnavi Ji was only leader of the community who changed the fate of the young generation by ensuring they get reservation in the professional colleges and universities", General Secretary of State Congress and Apex committee member Hira Lal Pandita said.

The last rites of the leader of the largest organisation of KPs in Jammu and Kashmir was performed at the Bantalab Cremation Ground.

The members of the KP community regretted that there was no representative from the Jammu and Kashmir government at the Cremation Ground to pay last respects to the veteran leader, who was also a member of the government's apex decision making body for Kashmiri Pandits.

"Chief Minister and Governor or the ministers failed to express even condolence to the most powerful leader of the community", claimed All Party Migrant Coordination Committee (APMCC) chairman Vinood Pandit before reporters here.


RIP

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## Edevelop

*Indian troops martyr five more Kashmiri youth*

Srinagar: In occupied Kashmir, Indian troops, in their fresh act of state terrorism, martyred five more Kashmiri youth in Ganderbal district, Monday. 

The troopers during a siege and search operation killed the youth at Haldooru Wangath in the district. The operation continued till last reports came in.
*On the other hand, according to the data issued by the Research Section of Kashmir Media Service, the troops martyred 10 Kashmiris in the last month of September. During the period, 63 people were critically injured when Indian police and paramilitary personnel used brute force against peaceful demonstrators and 272 civilians, mostly youth, were arrested. The troops molested 5 women during the month.*

The veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Gilani in a statement in Srinagar called for withdrawal of Indian army and paramilitary forces from the occupied territory. He said that as long as the troops were present in Kashmir, human rights violations would continue to take place. He condemned the arrests of youth in fake cases.

An Indian trooper committed suicide by hanging himself from a ceiling hook at Dhar Mahanpur in Basohli tehsil of Kathua district. This has raised the number of such deaths among Indian troops and police personnel in the occupied territory to 251 since January 2007.

ONLINE - International News Network


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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

Five militants killed in Kashmir 




Five militants were killed in a gunfight with security forces in north Kashmirs Ganderbal district on Monday, police said.

Five militants have been killed in this encounter. All of them belonged to the Hizbul Mujahideen group, a senior police officer told IANS.

A huge cache of arms and ammunition has been recovered from the encounter site.

The officer also said the group of militants had infiltrated into the Kashmir Valley about a month back from across the Line of Control (LoC).

On specific information about the presence of a group of militants in the forest areas of Wangat village in Ganderbal district, troops of counter-insurgency Rashtriya Rifles and the special operations group of the State police launched a joint operation in the wee hours of Monday morning, the police official said.

When the group of militants was surrounded and challenged to surrender, they started firing at the security forces triggering an encounter, he added.


The Hindu : States / Other States : Five militants killed in Kashmir

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## Abu Zolfiqar

according to 3 Kashmir-based sources, none of them were armed....the occupation forces were just being trigger happy as they always are - and then they wonder why the locals hate them


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## Abu Zolfiqar

In Indian-held Kashmir, government tightens grip on internet monitoring | DAWN.COM



> NEW DELHI: In a bid to monitor internet usage in Indian-held Kashmir, the central government has asked telecom operators to provide mechanisms for fool-proof monitoring of internet traffic and has also banned several links to Youtube and Facebook pages, it was reported on Monday.
> 
> According to a report on IBN-LIVE, internet users in the disputed region have complained of inability to access the social networking website and the video-sharing platform since, on the pretext of aiming to avoid violence emanating from online hate content, the Indian government has issued orders to internet service providers (ISPs) to restrict access to the websites.
> 
> In the interest of public safety and for maintaining public order, the government directed all licensed Telecom Service Providers and Internet Service Providers to make arrangements to ensure that their subscribers in Jammu and Kashmir should not be able to download or upload the contents, the order reportedly said.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Union Government has also urged private telecom operators to provide swiftly provide a mechanism for fool-proof monitoring of internet traffic in the state of Jammu and Kashmir, especially for smart-phone users.
> 
> The order, according to a Indian Express report, was issued after the Indian Department of Telecom had found that monitoring equipment of at least two operators (Vodafone and Aircel) did not comply with standards.
> 
> The directives, the report added, was issued at the behest of Indian secret agencies, which wanted to monitor the internet traffic in the occupied territory, especially since rumours are floated and incendiary pictures posted on the web, the sources quoted by the report said.
> 
> However, the operators refuted the claim by the Department of Telecom, saying that they complied with the norms. Before starting our services, the Government (New Delhi) has inspected and certified to start this service, said one of the operators.
> 
> A complaint has been submitted to the Indian Home Ministry for action against the operations not willing to install the Internet monitoring system.
> 
> However, in a note prepared by Director (Access Service) P. C. Sharma, it was mentioned that while other telecom operators in Jammu and Kashmir had provided complete monitoring solutions to internet, especially on mobile phones, Vodafone and Aircel had not complied with the requirements of installation of mobile internet traffic monitoring.
> 
> The note was submitted to Home Ministry for further action as deemed fit, the sources said, adding the security agencies had remarked that it was difficult to get real-time information from some of the telecom operators leading to failure of some the operations.
> 
> Previously, the Indian government has placed internet bans, as well as those on the use of pre-paid cell-phone services, which had led to widespread protests.


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## Don Jaguar

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> according to 3 Kashmir-based sources, none of them were armed....the occupation forces were just being trigger happy as they always are - and then they wonder why the locals hate them



Thanks for exposing the truth.


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## SpArK

*Mahindra to open skills training school in Srinagar*

NEW DELHI, OCT 5: 
Mahindra & Mahindra on Friday said *it will start its fifth Mahindra Pride School (MPS) in Srinagar by October 8 as part of its strategy to train and create a pool of one million employable youth by 2022.*

&#8220;*MPS Srinagar will commence its first batch with the specific objective of helping the youth of Jammu and Kashmir channelise their energies productively,&#8221; *the company said in a statement.

The other MPS are located in Pune, Patna and Chandigarh, graduating 600 students annually each, besides 800 students from Chennai, it added.

&#8220;The Group has set up these schools with the aim of helping to mainstream socially and economically disadvantaged youth through vocational education and training. The aim is to make them employable in the organised private sector with over 85 per cent of them coming from the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes,&#8221; the statement said.

The MPS graduates get specialised training in a range of fields, including retail, hospitality and house-keeping, BPO and KPO, it added.

M&M President (Group HR and Aftermarket Sector), Rajeev Dubey, said, &#8220;The Mahindra Group recognises that there is a larger need to appropriately skill massive numbers of unemployed Indian youth for the burgeoning service sector, where there is a huge demand for a skilled job-ready workforce at the entry level.&#8221;

The Mahindra Partners&#8217; investment division is actively exploring options to significantly scale up the number of trained youth by evaluating further expansion of the Pride School network, he added.

The first MPS was set up in March 2007 in Pune that currently has 4,503 alumni.

The MPS is fully funded by the KC Mahindra Education Trust with the investment per student ranging from Rs 18,000 to Rs 20,000.

Some of the leading entities that regularly employ MPS alumni across the country include Cafe Coffee Day, McDonald&#8217;s, Pizza Hut, Hotel Le Meridien, JW Marriott Group, TCS, Dell Computers, Tanishq, Fariyas Resort, Hotel Oakwood Residency, Sodexho, Mphasis, Syntel, WNS, Bharti AXA and Tata Business Support Services, the statement said.

Business Line : News / States : Mahindra to open skills training school in Srinagar

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## Kashmiri Nationalist

Yeti said:


> Jammu: All State Kashmiri Pandit Conference president Pandit Amar Nath Vaishnavi died at his residence in Jammu after a brief illness last evening. He was 87.
> 
> As their leader, Vaishnavi had led the Kashmir Pandit (KP) community for past several decades and became the first president of Yuvik Sahba (Sheetal Nath).
> 
> Born in Srinagar in 1925, Vaishnavi fighting for the country's Independence was jailed several times, including during the Emergency in 1975.
> 
> He had headed the Sahita Samiti, which provided relief and food to the displaced KPs soon after their migration from the Valley to Jammu and other areas in the region in 1990.
> 
> 
> "Vaishnavi Ji was only leader of the community who changed the fate of the young generation by ensuring they get reservation in the professional colleges and universities", General Secretary of State Congress and Apex committee member Hira Lal Pandita said.
> 
> The last rites of the leader of the largest organisation of KPs in Jammu and Kashmir was performed at the Bantalab Cremation Ground.
> 
> The members of the KP community regretted that there was no representative from the Jammu and Kashmir government at the Cremation Ground to pay last respects to the veteran leader, who was also a member of the government's apex decision making body for Kashmiri Pandits.
> 
> "Chief Minister and Governor or the ministers failed to express even condolence to the most powerful leader of the community", claimed All Party Migrant Coordination Committee (APMCC) chairman Vinood Pandit before reporters here.
> 
> 
> RIP



Rest in Peace.

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## SpArK

*Stage Set for Legislative Council Elections in J&K*

As many as 33,450 panchayat members will decide the fate of 37 candidates in fray for four MLC seats tomorrow as stage is set for the Legislative Council elections in Jammu and Kashmir under the panchayat quota after a gap of 38 years.


The polling material and election staff has already reached to far-flung areas of Kishtwar, Doda, Ramban, Kathua, Reasi and Poonch areas of Jammu region, an official said.

The state is going to MLC polls for four Legislative Council seats under panchayat quota after a gap of 38 years as the last panchayat quota legislative council elections were held in 1974.

The contest *is set to a be multi-cornered one, with all parties fielding their candidates and the coalition partners contesting two seats each.*

The opposition parties, including PDP and Panthers Party, have fielded candidates on all four seats while the Bharatiya Janata Party is contesting on three seats -- two from Jammu region and one from Kashmir valley.

The Bahujan Samaj Party has also fielded three candidates.

*As many as 15,628 panchayat members will elect two MLCs in Jammu division from a total of 21 candidates, while 17,912 members will cast their votes to elect two members from the 16 candidates in fray from Kashmir division.
*

Counting of votes will take place in Jammu and Srinagar on December 6 and the EVMs will be shifted from all district headquarters to the two cities on December 4 and 5.
FILED ON: DEC 02, 2012 


Stage Set for Legislative Council Elections in J&K | news.outlookindia.com

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## Yeti

A sarpanch was shot dead by militants in Baramulla district of Jammu and Kashmir on Friday. 
According to police, militants barged into the house of sarpanch Habibullah Mir in Goripora village in Sopore town around 12.20 pm and shot at him. 


Mir was critically injured in the firing and was rushed to a hospital where he succumbed.



Militants kill sarpanch in Kashmir's Baramulla district : North, News - India Today


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## Agnostic_Indian

Congress today disapproved of the reported meeting of Kashmiri separatist leaders with terror masterminds Hafiz Saeed and Syed Salahuddin in Pakistan describing it as a "breach of trust" and "anti-Indian"."I think that was an unfortunate incident. People going to Pakistan is not a problem with us but if the groups from here go and breach trust and meet the agencies of people in Pakistan who are particularly anti-Indian, that needs to be stopped," party spokesperson Sandip Dikshit said.He clarified that the group had gone to Pakistan but it was not the intention of the government of India that they go and meet Hafiz Saeed.He was responding to questions on the visit of Hurriyat delegation to Pakistan last month during which they reportedly met Saeed and Syed Salahuddin, whom India has named as terror masterminds.The report had it that the duo had told the delegation that armed militancy would revive in the Valley in 2014.Hafiz Saeed is considered the mastermind behind the November 2008 Mumbai terror strike that left 174 people dead.

Cong disapproves of Hurriyat leaders reported meet with Hafiz Saeed - India - DNA


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## Yeti

In yet another attack on democracy, unknown gunmen targeted a woman Panch in north Kashmir's restive town of Sopore, 50 km from Srinagar.

Police said that a woman Panch, Zoona Begum (30) was shot critically at in her neck when she was at home in Hardshiva village of the town. 

Reports said that the Panch was affiliated to the Congress. On Friday morning, a Sarpanch belonging to the same party was shot dead at his home in Bomai's Gooripora village which is just 2 km from the place where the woman was attacked on Saturday. 

Earlier in south Kashmir, a 40-year-old man was kidnapped and then killed by unknown gunmen in Pulwama district.

Police said that 'some unknown militants kidnapped', Mohammad Shafi Dar, a resident of Aglar Kandi, in Pulwama on Friday. "Later the bullet ridden body of Shafi was recovered near a passenger shed in the area," a police spokesman said.

In 2011, more than 33,000 people were elected as sarpanchs and panchs, after more than three decades after a record 80 percent of voter turnout.

Since the elections, Panchs and Sarpanchs continue to be attacked, most of the time by unidentified gunmen prompting mass resignations by these representatives.

The ruling National Conference and opposition Peoples' Democratic Party have also blamed each other for attacking the panchs for "vested interests".

In November 2012, militant conglomerate united Jehad council chairman, Syed Salahuddin accused mainstream politicians of "portraying the Panchayat elections as referendum by Kashmiris for Union of India" warning that "they will continue to be targeted".

Jammu and Kashmir chief minister Omar Abdullah Omar ruled out security to "each and every" Panch saying that "most parts of the state face no threat from militants".


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## SpArK

*Kashmir valley peaceful on Republic Day 
*

Sat, 26 Jan 2013







Srinagar: The Kashmir Valley on Saturday was far less tense than in previous years despite a separatist call to shun India's Republic Day celebrations.

Banks, post offices, government offices and educational institutions were shut in Srinagar and other parts of the valley *on account of government holiday.*

Fearing separatist reprisals, public transport stayed off the roads and so did most people.

But as security forces began withdrawing from around sensitive installations, life limped back to normalcy with small markets in local areas opening and private transport returning to most areas.

Kashmir has been witnessing unprecedented tensions around January 26 for over 20 years because of the ongoing separatist violence.

This year, despite the recent tensions on the Line of Control between India and Pakistan, there was far less tension.

Most streets were dotted with security personnel and vehicles in Srinagar in the morning. As the official functions ended, the security presence became less conspicuous.


Kashmir valley peaceful on Republic Day



*Republic Day celebrated across the Kashmir Valley*


Srinagar,January 26 (Scoop News) 64th Republic Day was celebrated today with great gaiety and fervour at all district and Tehsil headquarters in Kashmir Valley like other parts of the State.

Main function was held in Summer Capital at Bakshi Stadium, Minister for Rural Development Panchayats, Ali Mohammad Sagar was the chief guest on the occasion.

The Minister unfurled the National flag and inspected the parade. Later various contingents of J&K Police, JKAP, IRP, CRPF, BSF, ITBP, Women Police, State Disaster Response Force, Fire and Emergency Services, Forest Protection Force and children of various educational institutions took part in the march past.

Addressing the function, the Minister said that the State Government has succeeded in bringing peace, progress and prosperity in all the three regions of the State with the concerned efforts under the dynamic leadership of Omar Abdullah, adding that people are source of power for the welfare and empowerment of whom Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah worked throughout his life. 

Reiterating Governments resolve to provide employment to educated unemployed youth through SSRB and overseas Development Corporation, the Minister said 80,000 posts are vacant in various departments out of which around 10,000 posts have been sent to SSRB for filling up on fast track basis. He said Government has set up skill development institutions for imparting training to unskilled educated personnel so as to make them job oriented and provide employability to them.

Giving resume of various achievements of present Government, Sagar said that during last 4 years* several Hydel projects were set up in the State to exploit the water resources making the State self sufficient in power generation.*

Similarly, various Tourism Development Authorities were set up to boost tourism for economic growth of the State. Millions of tourists visited during last couple of years, resulting in improving the socio-economic status of the people particularly those related to tourism sector.

Speaking about the upgradation of Srinagar Airport by earnest support of Central Government, the Minister expressed satisfaction over the functioning of Srinagar International Airport where 22 flights are arranged daily for ferrying passengers from different parts of the world.

Referring to the expansion programme of higher education in every nook and corner of the State, Sagar said that *as many as 23 new colleges were set up in various areas of the State to provide higher education at the doorstep of the students. Similarly a network of schools was established to extend primary and secondary education to the students of remote areas of the State.*

A number of scintillating and mesmerizing cultural were presented by the Artists of State Information Department, Cultural Academy and Youth Services & Sports besides the school children.

*KUPWARA:* The main function was held at District Police Lines Kupwara where Minister for CA&PD, Choudhary Mohammad Ramzan unfurled the National flag and took salute. The contingents of CRPF, IRP, JKAP, JKP, Forest Protection Force and School children participated in March past.

In his address, the Minister stressed on the importance of Republic Day adding that the Constitution of the country was framed to envisage equality to all its citizens. He said that today the country is witnessing development in all spheres and the State of Jammu and Kashmir is also marching towards peace and development.

The Minister said that the State is endowed with immense water resources and need is to make judicious use of these resources for the prosperity of the State.

On the occasion, cultural items were presented by students of various schools.

Similar functions were held at Handwara and Karnah Tehsil also.

*GANDERBAL:* Minister for Forests and Environment, Mian Altaf Ahmad unfurled the National Flag at Ganderbal and took salute at the march past. The contingents of JKP, JKAP, IRP, CRPF, Forest Protection Force and School children participated at the march past.

Speaking on the occasion, the Minister said that Government headed by Chief Minister, Omar Abdullah has envisioned a prosperous Jammu and Kashmir. He made a clarion call to everyone, especially separatists to come forward and participate in the process of nation building. He said dialogue process to resolve Kashmir issue is progressing and State government is making every effort to make it a success.

Mian Altaf congratulated people for maintaining peace during last summer adding that peace is the pre-requisite for development.

*PULWAMA:* The Republic Day was celebrated in Pulwama district and main function was held at District Police Lines, the Minister for Law and Parliamentary Affairs, Mir Saifullah unfurled the national flag and took salute on the march past.

Addressing the gathering, the Minister said that our leaders and elders have made immense sacrifices to let every citizen of this country to enjoy freedom of life and expression.

*BARAMULLA:* The Republic Day was celebrated in District Police Lines, Baramulla where Minister for Medical Education, Youth Services and Sports, Taj Mohi-ud-Din was the chief guest who unfurled national flag and took salute at the march past.

Addressing the gathering, the Minister said that coalition government has strengthened democracy in the State by conducting Panchayat elections and empowering the basic democratic institutions in the State after three long decades. He said the present coalition Government has embarked on a massive developmental plan for which he sought support from the people.

A colourful cultural programme was presented by students of several schools on the occasion which was liked by the audience.

BANDIPORA: Republic Day was celebrated with patriotic zeal at Boys Higher Secondary School Bandipora, the Minister for Higher Education, Mohammad Akbar Lone was chief guest on the occasion and hoisted the national flag and took salute at the march past.

The Minister in his address said that the present coalition government has made Public Services Guarantee Act and Right to Information a reality and has strengthened the basic democratic institutions in the State by successfully conducting Panchayat elections and fully empowering them.

*ANANTNAG: *After hoisting tricolour at Degree College Anantnag, the Minister for Public Enterprises, Hajj, Auqaf and Floriculture, Peerzada Mohammad Sayeed was chief guest on the occasion and hoisted the national flag and took salute at the march past.

The Minister said that under the Constitution of India, every section of the society, irrespective of cast, creed and colour have been given equal rights.

*KULGAM:* Republic Day was celebrated with enthusiasm and gaiety in Kulgam district, the Minister for Social Welfare, Ms. Sakina Itoo unfurled the National flag and took salute at the march past.

Speaking on the occasion, the Minister said that this day is celebrated for the freedom we have been granted to live a dignified life without any discrimination of caste, creed and colour by the Constitution.

*KARNAH:* Republic Day was also celebrated with gaiety and fervour at the Tehsil headquarter Karnah where Sub Divisional Magistrate, Zahoor Ahmad Mir unfurled the National flag and took salute at the march past.

Meanwhile, the Republic Day was also celebrated at other Tehsil Headquarters where National flag by the concerned Tehsildars.



Republic Day celebrated across the Kashmir Valley | GroundReport







K Minister G A Mir at Shopian





JK Minister Sakina Itoo at Kulgam





JKI MMinister Ali Saga at Srinagarr at Republic Day

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## SpArK

*Monorail project for Jammu and Srinagar*

New Delhi, (PTI) *Speedy Monorail services could become a reality in Jammu and Srinagar if an ambitious plan of Rs 30,000 crore prepared by the state government gets the nod of the Centre.*

In his meeting with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh here today, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah today sought funds for the project which is first of its kind for any Valley region in the country.

fullstory

*SSP Srinagar inaugurates youth club
*





Srinagar, Feb 04: Senior Superintendent of Police (SSP) Srinagar, Syed Ashiq Hussain Bukhari Monday inaugurated a Youth Club here at Shaheed Gunj. The club is equipped with a latest Gymnasium for youth of the area. A public interactive meeting was also held on the occasion.

Besides inauguration, a police-public interaction was chaired by the SSP wherein members of Mohalla committees and traders of Hari Sigh High Street deliberated upon their problems and grievances. The problems of drug abuse and road encroachment by vendors leading to frequent traffic snarls came up for discussion during the interaction. The SSP assured them of all possible help in dealing with these problems. He urged the participants to cooperate with police in such matters as public assistance strengthens the efforts of police in dealing with such issues.

SSP Srinagar inaugurates youth club


----------



## Windjammer

*CRPF jawan on duty at minister's house shoots himself*

Srinagar, Mar 8, 2013 (PTI)

A CRPF jawan, on duty at the summer residence of a Jammu and Kashmir minister, today allegedly committed suicide by shooting himself with his service rifle.

Constable Rahul Kumar of 79 Battalion CRPF allegedly shot himself around 5 am at the official residence of Rural Development Minister Ali Mohammad Sagar at Church Lane here, police said.

Kumar died on the spot, police said adding that it was not immediately known why he took the extreme step.

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## Agnostic_Indian

Zeenews Bureau
New Delhi:


> Former
> Pakistan President
> Pervez Musharraf, who
> is currently living in exile in the UAE,
> has said that it is difficult to control
> terrorism and end terror camps
> operating in his country.
> In an interview to a private TV news
> channel, former Pakistan President
> expressed concerns over the rise in
> militancy in Kashmir and linked it to
> the pullout of the US-led coalition
> forces from Afghanistan,
> Musharraf, who had earlier announced
> that he would return to Pakistan later
> this month to take part in
> parliamentary elections, warned that
> consequences of US troops pullout
> would be dangerous for both Pakistan
> and India.
> When quizzed about his earlier
> commitment to the world that he
> would not allow Pakistani soil to be
> used for anti-India activities, he said
> that the situation is fast slipping from
> hands and it is growing increasingly
> difficult to control insurgency.
> It's a very difficult situation that we
> will face.. We are already facing.
> When this freedom struggle in
> Kashmir started in 1989, which you
> call insurgency of course, then there
> were multiple. There were dozens of
> Mujahideen groups which erupted
> inside Pakistan. Now these volunteers
> were massive. It was not that this is
> one organisation which is immediately
> controllable, Musharraf was quoted
> as saying.


Musharraf, 69, has been living in exile
in Britain and the UAE since he
resigned as the president in August
2008, fearing impeachment by
Parliament.
He had earlier on a few occasions
announced he would end his exile but
postponed the plans over concerns at
his possible arrest in connection with
the 2007 assassination of former
Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto.
The current National Assembly or
lower house of Pakistani Parliament
will be dissolved on completion of its
five-year term and new elections will
be held within two months.
The former army chief who seized
power in a coup in 1999 had said he
would face courts on return and did
not care if there was a threat to his
life.
In 2011, an anti-terrorism court issued
an arrest warrant for Musharraf in
connection with the assassination of
Benazir Bhutto in a bomb blast. In
October 2012, a court issued a
warrant for his arrest over the killing
of Baloch leader Akbar Bugti in a
military operation in 2006.
Musharraf denies all charges and said
he will defend himself in courts.


Can


----------



## Kashmiri Nationalist

Windjammer said:


> *CRPF jawan on duty at minister's house shoots himself*
> 
> Srinagar, Mar 8, 2013 (PTI)
> 
> A CRPF jawan, on duty at the summer residence of a Jammu and Kashmir minister, today allegedly committed suicide by shooting himself with his service rifle.
> 
> Constable Rahul Kumar of 79 Battalion CRPF allegedly shot himself around 5 am at the official residence of Rural Development Minister Ali Mohammad Sagar at Church Lane here, police said.
> 
> Kumar died on the spot, police said adding that it was not immediately known why he took the extreme step.



He realised the great wrong he was committing by serving what is basically a mercenary, foreign force that guns down innocents; nonetheless, condolences to the family, hope they remain strong.


----------



## A1Kaid

We all know the truth every Kashmiri hates India and wants India out of their land, Kashmir belongs to Pakistan. Kashmiris want this, Pakistanis want this, even Chinese want this, everyone except India in the region.

It's Pakistan's fault for Kashmiri occupation, it failed to destroy Indian military in 1947 and 1965.


----------



## Windjammer

Three Border Security Force (BSF) troopers were injured here Thursday when separatist guerrillas fired at their vehicle.

The vehicle was coming from north Kashmir's Baramulla town to Panthachowk camp of the BSF when it was fired upon near Gulshan Nagar on the bypass road, a police official said. 

"Three BSF troopers were injured in the firing incident. All the injured have been shifted to the army's base hospital in Badami Bagh cantonment area in Srinagar. Doctors have described the condition of one of the injured troopers as critical," the official said. 

This is the second militant attack in a month in this Jammu and Kashmir summer capital. 
On March 13, a suicide squad attacked Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) troopers in Bemina area of the city. 

Five CRPF troopers and two attacking fidayeen were killed in the incident, while nine others, including three civilians, were killed.The March 13 attack was the first in Srinagar in three years.

Three BSF troopers injured in Srinagar guerrilla attack


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## SpArK

*Top LeT Commander Arrested in Sopore
*

Top Lashkar-e-Taiba commander Qari Naveed alias Fahad has been arrested in Sopore township of north Kashmir, Kashmir's IGP informed.

FILED ON: APR 18, 2013

Top LeT Commander Arrested in Sopore | news.outlookindia.com

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## rockstarIN

A1Kaid said:


> We all know the truth every Kashmiri hates India and wants India out of their land, Kashmir belongs to Pakistan. Kashmiris want this, Pakistanis want this, even Chinese want this, everyone except India in the region.
> 
> It's Pakistan's fault for Kashmiri occupation, it failed to destroy Indian military in 1947 and 1965.




Hundreds of youth attend Army recruitment rally

Anantnag, Apr 18:- Hundreds of unemployed youth Thursday participated in recruitment rally held at High Ground by Army in Anantnag.

On this occasion, Recruitment Officer Colonel Sethi said that this rally is organized with the aim of providing greater employment opportunities to youth.

While talking to media said that the main aim of organizing these rallies is to provide bigger job opportunities to Kashmir youth keeping in view the growing rate of unemployment in Valley.

Colonel further added that Army will hold more rallies in future so that Kashmiri Youth could get more chances of employment and service to Nation and Country. According to defense communique the recruitment drive will continue up to 21st April for the youths of rest districts of Valley.

In the rally most of the youth were highly qualified. &#8220;Today rally was specified for the youth of Shopian, Kulgam and Ganderbal districts and almost 2000 youths attended this rally in order to seek employment in Indian Army&#8221;, said Colonel.

A youth namely Amir Hussain from Ganderbal said that he does not want to lose any of the chance that could give him employment and that is why they have come all along the long way.


Also there was the good number of youth who were saying that they want to join Army out of their passion and hobby.

Hundreds of youth attend Army recruitment rally 


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...end-army-recruitment-rally.html#ixzz2Qtq0IF39

Delusional Pakistanis..

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## Windjammer

*6 held for hoisting of Pak, LeT flag - Times Of India*


SRINAGAR: At least six youth were detained for questioning on Tuesday a day after Pakistani and Lashkar-e-Taiba flags appeared mysteriously outside Srinagar's historic 19th century Hariparbat Fort that is closed for public and houses a CRPF camp.

Srinagar (north) SP Tahir Saleem said nothing concrete had come out of the questioning, but expected a breakthrough soon in their investigation in the anti-national activity that included graffiti like "go India go back" and "welcome Taliban".

Saleem claimed that no CCTV cameras were installed at the fort atop a hill, overlooking the Srinagar city, and that an FIR had been registered under the Unlawful Activities Prevention Act. "But so far we have not charged anyone," said Saleem.

Residents said they noticed the flags on Monday morning and that police immediately removed them.

CRPF spokesman Sudhir Kumar clarified that their camp was located inside the fort and that the flags were hoisted outside the monument.

This is the second time such flags have appeared at the fort since Afzal Guru was hanged on February 9.

Sources said intelligence agencies and police were not taking the events very seriously as they believe militants could be involved in it. Such things are not uncommon as the militants have hoisted such flags in the past including atop Srinagar's Ghata Ghar.


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## Joe Shearer

Kashmiri Nationalist said:


> He realised the great wrong he was committing by serving what is basically a mercenary, foreign force that guns down innocents; nonetheless, condolences to the family, hope they remain strong.



Only an exceptional c**t could take a suicide and make it a piece of maudlin propaganda.

(c**t = clot, in case you were wondering).



Kashmiri Nationalist said:


> He realised the great wrong he was committing by serving what is basically a mercenary, foreign force that guns down innocents; nonetheless, condolences to the family, hope they remain strong.



Only an exceptional c**t could take a suicide and make it a piece of maudlin propaganda.

(c**t = clot, in case you were wondering).


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## Capt.Popeye

A1Kaid said:


> We all know the truth every Kashmiri hates India and wants India out of their land, Kashmir belongs to Pakistan. Kashmiris want this, Pakistanis want this, even Chinese want this, everyone except India in the region.
> 
> It's Pakistan's fault for Kashmiri occupation, it failed to destroy Indian military in 1947 and 1965.



I must compliment you on your unbounded optimism in even thinking that could happen to fall within the realm of possibility.
BTW, do you also believe in the "Tooth Fairy"??

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## Vinod2070

Capt.Popeye said:


> I must compliment you on your unbounded optimism in even thinking that could happen to fall within the realm of possibility.
> BTW, do you also believe in the "Tooth Fairy"??



Jindagi jhandwa, phir bhi ghamandwa.

"Optimism" is something one can't deny to them. It will be cruel.

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## Windjammer

*
Police officer shot dead in Kashmir by suspected militants | NDTV.com*


Srinagar: A police officer was shot dead by suspected militants in Pulwama district of south Kashmir today.

Assistant Sub-Inspector Farooq Ahmad was shot from point-blank range this afternoon, a police spokesman said.

He said the officer was taken to nearby Pulwama district hospital where he succumbed to injuries.

Mr Ahmad, who was posted in Pulwama Police Station, was on law and order duty at the time of the attack, police said, adding he was not carrying his service weapon with him.

Police have cordoned off the area and a hunt has been launched to nab the militants.

This is the second militant attack on policemen in the Valley within a fortnight.

On April 27, militants had shot dead four cops in Haigam area of Sopore in Baramulla district of north Kashmir.


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## Windjammer

Infiltration bid foiled along LoC, JCO killed - The Times of India

SRINAGAR: A Junior Commissioned Officer was killed while a soldier was injured as Army on Saturday foiled an infiltration bid by militants in Macchil sector along the Line of Control in north Kashmir's Kupwara district.

Troops of 56 Rashtriya Rifles noticed some suspicious movement of two to four persons along the LoC in Macchil sector at around 3.00am and challenged them, an Army spokesman said.

The militants, who were trying to sneak into the Valley from Pakistan occupied Kashmir, opened fire on the army positions including on Dingeri Post, which was retaliated.

In the ensuing gunfight, a JCO identified as Arun Kumar was killed while a soldier Solanki Raju was injured.

The militants fled in view of the stiff challenge posed by the army troops, the spokesman said.

The ultras left behind two assault rifles and some war-like stores before crossing back into *** territory, he said.

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## SpArK

*Kashmir's youth participate in mixed martial arts
*

Srinagar (Jammu and Kashmir), June 4 (ANI): Mixed martial arts are drawing more young men here with local fighters, squaring off against opponents from across the country.
One of the selected players, Iqbal Bhat said that he was excited to participate in the tournament and said that the game would gain popularity.
"I am feeling great as we have been selected for the championship. It is a new game in India and slowly it will gain popularity. We have been practicing it for the past one year," said Bhat.
For the first time, two young men - Iqbal Bhat and Abid Ahmad from the valley have been selected for the super fight league to be held in Mumbai.
Bollywood actor Sanjay Dutt and entrepreneur Raj Kundra launched Super Fight League, a mixed martial arts (MMA) league in 2012.
The coach, Irfan Aziz exuded confidence in the youth of the valley, adding that they have lot of talent.
"We are providing training to around 20 to 25 youth in Kashmir. For the first time two people have been selected and they have even signed a contract. We hope that in the next orientation, more people will be selected. There is lot of potential and talent in Kashmir and there is a need to enhance their skills," said Aziz.
Mixed Martial Art has become one of the world's fastest growing sports with sponsorship and media revenue starting to pour in.
The U.S.-based Ultimate Fighting Championship, the world's biggest MMA promotion organisation, signed a seven-year multi-media deal with TV network Fox in August that will net a reported $90-100 million in rights annually.
Asian promotion ONE Fighting Championship, which has hefty financial backing from Middle East investors, is also capitalising on MMA's growing popularity and tied up lucrative deals with sponsors and broadcasters across the region. (ANI)

Kashmir's youth participate in mixed martial arts

































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22 Bollywood Movies Shot in Kashmir - Bollywood News - Desimartini.com


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## SpArK

World Environment Day celebrated in Kashmir
by Scoop News June 05, 2013



Srinagar, June 5 (Scoop News) &#8211;In connection with celebrations of World Environment Day, a function was organized at SKICC by the department of Environment and Remote Sensing here today. Students of various schools, environmentalist, NGOs besides the officers of various wings of Forest Department participated in the programme. This year&#8217;s theme is &#8220;Think, Eat and Save&#8221;.
Speaking on the occasion, Principal Chief Conservator of Forests, VinodRanjan said that it is our collective responsibility to work for protection of environment and stressed on the participants to sensitize people about hazardous effects of pollution. He said the theme of the year gives us the message &#8216;think while eating and eat so much so to save something for others&#8217;. He said every one person out of seven in the world goes to bedwithout havingfood daily.
MrRanjan said that people waste a good quantity of food on social functions, adding it that this not only wastage of money but also polluts environment. &#8220;If we have to survive we need to save the environment for us and also for our posterity &#8220;said Ranjan and asked participants to play their role in this noble cause. 
On the occasion, students of different schools presented shot plays portraying the hazardous effects of pollution and steps need to be taken for protection of environment.
Managing Director, SFC, Abhay Kumar, Director, E&RS, Suresh Chug, Chief Conservator IK Sharma, Director Soil Conservation, U. Pachnanda, Chief Conservator of Forests, Kashmir Nisar Ahmad Darzi, Regional Director, E&RS, Liyaqat Ali, Chief Conservator, IWDP, Mr Abdul Razaq besides senior officers of Forest Department and former Chief Conservator, Mufti Mohammad Maqbool and representatives of various NGOs were present on the occasion.
MrRanjan also launched website of the department besides releasing an atlas on the occasion. 
Other speakers also spoke on the occasion and highlighted the importance of the Day.


Meanwhile Gandhi Global Family today honoured Ravi Kumar Kesar, IFS Additional Pr. Chief Conservator of Forests of J&K State with &#8220;Gandhi Sewa Medal&#8221; for his meritorious services to preserve and promote environment in the State. The medal was presented by PadamShri S.P. Verma, President Gandhi Global Family (GGF), J&K State along with other members of GGF family.
Welcoming the guests and members Padam Shri S.P. Verma stressed upon the need of preserving environment and reminded GGF member of its commitment to this cause. He said that the journey of GGF members from greening and saving over 100 hectares of land at Nagrota and banks of river Tawi in nineties to cleaning of areas from Baltal to Amarnath Shrine, Chrar-e-Sharief in Badgam, Chatti Padshahi in Srinagar to Vaishno Devi hills to banks of river Tawi must continue forever. R.L. ******, retired Pr. Chief Conservator of Forests and Advisor GGF J&K and Roshan Jaggi, IFS Conservator of Forests explained to audience the need of afforestation to save the humanity.
Ravi Kumar Kesar, Additional Pr. CCF in his remarks thanked GGF for honouring him with the &#8220;Gandhi Sewa Medal&#8221; on World Environment Day. He further highlighted the need of cooperation of Civil Society for success of the afforestation programmes launched by the Government under different schemes and sought the cooperation of one and all for this noble cause. He assured GGF that for replicating the success story of afforestation at Nagrota, Forest Department shall supply all necessary material inputs including saplings to GGF. for greening of the vacant lands identified in and around Jammu City in the ensuing rainy season.



World Environment Day celebrated in Kashmir | GroundReport



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Kashmir University to Introduce Chinese As Course - Free Press Kashmir


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## SpArK

*Street protesters in 2010, J&K cops today
*

Jul 9, 2013


SRINAGAR: *Many young street protesters from 2010, a particularly violent year in Kashmir, have qualified to don the khaki uniform now.* 

Additional director general of police P L Gupta on Saturday formally* inducted 911 Kashmiri men* into the police force. 

These youngsters were selected during a special police recruitment drive held in various areas after the so-called "stone-pelting phenomenon" spread across the Kashmir valley three years ago.




Street protesters in 2010, J&K cops today - The Times of India

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## Windjammer

Six injured in grenade attack on police vehicle in Srinagar - The Times of India


SRINAGAR: Four policemen and an undertrial were among six persons injured on Wednesday in a grenade attack by militants on a police vehicle in Batamaloo area of the city.

Militants lobbed a grenade on a police vehicle carrying an undertrial at busy Batamaloo bus stand around noon, police said.

The grenade landed and exploded inside the vehicle, resulting in injuries to four policemen and the undertrial Shakeel Ahmad Khatana, police said.

A civilian, Ghulam Nabi, who was passing through the area, was also injured in the blast, they said.

Khatana, whose condition is stated to be critical, was being shifted to Baramulla district jail from Panthachowk police station.

The youth was arrested last year under Section 7/25 of the Arms Act and slapped with the Public Safety Act.

This is the first militant strike in Srinagar since the Muslim fasting month of Ramzan began last week.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Hurriyat to build Kashmiri Pandit's home destroyed in September flood - Authint Mail

SRINAGAR -- Kashmir's chief cleric and chairman of moderate Hurriyat, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Saturday laid the foundation stone for constructing some of the houses which were destroyed in September floods that caused immense destruction across the region.

The houses will be built under 'Akh Akis' initiative launched by Mirwaiz's Hurriyat, most of them destroyed in the worst-hit summer capital, Srinagar.

The first house to be built is of a Kashmiri Pandit, Moti Lal, a retired teacher, who lost his home in Mandar Bagh locality of Srinagar.

Mirwaiz paid tributes to the youth who played a vital role in relief and rehabilitation work when the city was hit by the flood on September 7.

Another house will be constructed at Kral Khud and it belongs to the widow of Abdul Majeed, whose son, a volunteer in relief activities, Mohammad Musaib, died during a rescue mission.

Musaib died while trying to save people on September 8 during which their boat capsized. The widow now lives a hard life with her young orphans.

Another house belongs to Ghulam Mustafa Bhat, of Gaw Kadal, a newspaper hawker. In Maisuma, house of Shabir Ahmad Bhat which completely collapsed during the flood will also be constructed.

Bhat, a tailor by profession, lost his shop during the recent floods and he is the sole bread earner in the impoverished family.

"We have gone through a lot during the last 20 years. We saw the flood fury as well. This has been a difficult time for us, but I think we have shown the strength, commitment and courage to rise again," he said.

Asked about why he chose to start from rebuilding the house of a Pandit, he said: "We know Moti Lal did not left Kashmir when other Pandit brothers left. He has been with people through thick and thin," adding, "I think it is our duty to start rehabilitation with that family which has not left us. And I think it is a humanitarian effort."

He said there are over 50,000 completely damaged houses in Srinagar alone, "This is a huge challenge. And rather than focusing on this issue, right now, politics is being done over the sufferings of the people," he said.

He also castigated authorities for conducting polls in Kashmir soon after floods.

"This was the time when people need shelter on their heads. People are homeless today. I think it was really unjustified on the part of those forces, who want to carry this exercise, just to give an impression that the democracy on the ground is very much vibrant," he said.

He appealed people to generously offer their donations to Dar-ul-Khair, Mirwaiz Manzil, which is spearheading the 'Akh Akis' initiative.

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## SpArK

The stage is set in Srinagar for Modi Rally





People in Srinagar for Modi rally














Few pics from the rally.

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## Capt.Popeye

SpArK said:


> The stage is set in Srinagar for Modi Rally
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People in Srinagar for Modi rally
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Few pics from the rally.



@SpArK; just goes to show that the folks there have normal aspirations as any other Citizen of India; and do not want to live with the worry of where the next bomb explosion will take place, or where the next Beardo or Weirdo will come from firing a Kalashnikov!

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## SpArK

Capt.Popeye said:


> @SpArK; just goes to show that the folks there have normal aspirations as any other Citizen of India; and do not want to live with the worry of where the next bomb explosion will take place, or where the next Beardo or Weirdo will come from firing a Kalashnikov!




Pictures speaks a thousand words.


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## Capt.Popeye

SpArK said:


> Pictures speaks a thousand words.




Oh, yes, they do. And very clearly at that......

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## SpArK

*J&K Govt Releases Over 200 Cr Under Various Schemes: Official*

http://www.outlookindia.com/news/printitem.aspx?882816

Jammu and Kashmir government has released over* Rs 200 crore under various financial assistance schemes for the students and elderly persons in the state, a senior official said here today.*

*"Under post-matric scholarship scheme, an amount of Rs 3.26 crore for 3,235 students belonging to Scheduled Tribe category and Rs 2.90 crore for 3,105 students belonging to Scheduled Castes category had been released till January 2015," an official Raj Bhawan spokesman said here today.*

He said, "Rs 1.12 crore for 2,472 beneficiaries belonging to Pahari-speaking people category and Rs 2.20 crore for 2,325 students belonging to other backward classes had also been released."

The official said from the financial year 2015-16 the scholarships of the deserving students will be transferred through direct benefit transfer mode.

Governor N N Vohra reviewed the activities of the social welfare department and directed the officials of the department to personally review the timely release of assistance to various categories of persons who are beneficiaries of the different schemes.

He said the Governor also reviewed the disbursement of financial assistance extended under the national social assistance programme (NSAP), integrated social security scheme (ISSS), post-matric scholarship and pre-matric scholarship schemes.

"During the review meeting, it was informed that upto January 2015, Pre-Matric Scholarships of Rs 40.32 crore has been provided to 3,28,060 students belonging to the minority communities, Rs 9.90 crore given to 1,09,000 students belonging to Pahari-speaking people category and Rs 0.39 crore for 1,773 students belonging to Scheduled Castes category," he said.

Under the Integrated Social Security Scheme (ISSS), an amount of Rs 97.61 crore has been disbursed to 4,22,500 old aged persons, women in distress and physically challenged persons, he said.

"Similarly under the National Social Assistance Programme (NSAP) an assistance of Rs 45.19 crore to 1, 50,883 old-aged persons, widows and physically-challenged persons living Below the Poverty Line has been released," he said.



FILED ON: FEB 24, 2015 21:30 IST


READ MORE IN:

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Fury in Indian media as Pakistan anthem, flag grace event in held Kashmir | Pakistan | Dunya News

SRINAGAR (Dunya News) -- During the celebrations of Pakistan Day on Monday, flags bearing the moon and crescent were displayed during an event, led by Kashmiri leader Aasia Andrabi.

The ceremony was attended by a sizeable crowd of women.

In addition to displaying Pakistan’s flag, the national anthem of Pakistan was also sung by the crowd present at the event.

Upon the emergence of video, the usual antics of the Indian media started and uproar was raised from across the border.

When contacted by an Indian media outlet for confirmation, Aasia Andrabi admitted that the video was genuine.

It is important to note here that whenever the ever-lasting friendship, which exists between Pakistan and Kashmir is displayed by either sides, extremist Hindu groups and fanatic elements of Indian media are always irked.

Extremist Hindu groups have, in the past, victimized Kashmiri students for exhibiting support for Pakistan.

Furthermore, students who have supported Pakistan cricket team in the past have also been rusticated from their university while cases of treachery have also been filed against them.

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## Shamain

*Kashmiris mark India’s Independence Day as Black Day*





PHOTO: AFP

*Kashmiris living across the world, including those on both sides of the Line of Control (LoC) are observing black day on Saturday as India celebrates its 69th Independence Day, Radio Pakistan reported. *

A complete strike is being observed in Indian occupied Kashmir after a call for black day came from several liberation leaders including Syed Ali Gilani and Mirwaiz Umar Farooq.

Read: Curfew imposed in Indian-occupied Kashmir to prevent Independence Day celebrations

Further, Hurriyat leaders Muhammad Yousuf Naqash, Hakeem Abdul Rasheed, Bilal Siddiqi and Syed Bashir Andrabi in a joint statement said, “India had no moral or constitutional justification to celebrate its Independence Day in the disputed territory forcibly occupied by it.”

The call came a day after authorities imposed a curfew in parts of the main city of Indian-controlled Kashmir on August 14 to prevent any move by separatists to celebrate Pakistan’s Indepedence Day, police said.

Read: Woman killed by Indian shelling in Kashmir

The restrictions in Srinagar, which included the closure of the city’s main mosque during Friday prayers, were announced on the eve of independence day in both India and Pakistan and follow a recent spike in violence.



Kashmiris mark India’s Independence Day as Black Day - The Express Tribune


And there were shameless pakistanis wishing indians happy independence day.

@fakhre mirpur @engineer saad

@syedali73 @JonAsad @DESERT FIGHTER
Its old news but ididnt post that day ,@syedali73 ,may nay socha koi modertor dukhi na ho jaey that im posting this on indian independence day , after all u know y.

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## Burhan Wani

Shamain said:


> *Kashmiris mark India’s Independence Day as Black Day*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PHOTO: AFP
> 
> *Kashmiris living across the world, including those on both sides of the Line of Control (LoC) are observing black day on Saturday as India celebrates its 69th Independence Day, Radio Pakistan reported. *
> 
> A complete strike is being observed in Indian occupied Kashmir after a call for black day came from several liberation leaders including Syed Ali Gilani and Mirwaiz Umar Farooq.
> 
> Read: Curfew imposed in Indian-occupied Kashmir to prevent Independence Day celebrations
> 
> Further, Hurriyat leaders Muhammad Yousuf Naqash, Hakeem Abdul Rasheed, Bilal Siddiqi and Syed Bashir Andrabi in a joint statement said, “India had no moral or constitutional justification to celebrate its Independence Day in the disputed territory forcibly occupied by it.”
> 
> The call came a day after authorities imposed a curfew in parts of the main city of Indian-controlled Kashmir on August 14 to prevent any move by separatists to celebrate Pakistan’s Indepedence Day, police said.
> 
> Read: Woman killed by Indian shelling in Kashmir
> 
> The restrictions in Srinagar, which included the closure of the city’s main mosque during Friday prayers, were announced on the eve of independence day in both India and Pakistan and follow a recent spike in violence.
> 
> 
> 
> Kashmiris mark India’s Independence Day as Black Day - The Express Tribune
> 
> 
> And there were shameless pakistanis wishing indians happy independence day.
> 
> @fakhre mirpur @engineer saad
> 
> @syedali73 @JonAsad @DESERT FIGHTER
> Its old news but ididnt post that day ,@syedali73 ,may nay socha koi modertor dukhi na ho jaey that im posting this on indian independence day , after all u know y.


Hum cheen k lein gei azadi.
Hai Haq Hamara Azaadi.

رائم لسٹ/چارج شیٹ بنام ابو ظالم گلاب سنگھہ ایک درندہ صفت حکمران
٭ 1820ء کی دہائی میں رنجیت سنگھ کی خوشنودی کے لیے ریاست جموں کے عوام کا بے دریغ قتل کیا۔ اپنے حقوق کی جنگ لڑنے والے میاں دیدو سمیت سینکڑوں افراد کو قتل کیا اور ان کے ٹکڑے ٹکڑے کر کہ اپنی جہالت اور بیمار انا کو تسکین بخشی۔ [1]
٭ 1830ء کی دہائی میں ریاست پونچھ میں آزادی پسندوں نے مہاراجہ رنجیت سنگھ کے خلاف بغاوت کی اور اپنے حقوق کے لیے آواز بلند کرنے کی پادائش میں راجہ جموں گلاب سنگھ نے بحکم رنجیت سنگھ اہل پونچھ کو ناصرف گاجر مولی کی طرح کاٹ ڈالا بلکہ ان کی منظم نسل کشی بھی کی۔ سبز علی خان اور ملی خان کی زندہ کھالیں اتار کر درخت کے ساتھ الٹا لٹکا دیا تا کہ بچ جانے والے عبرت پکڑیں اور آئندہ اپنے حقوق کی بات نا کریں۔ [2]
٭ 1846ء میں انگریزوں سے ساز باز کرتے ہوئے جموں کشمیر کو 75 لاکھ نانک شاہی میں بیعنامہ امرتسر کے تحت خرید لیا [3] جو تاریخِِ انسانی میں انسانوں کی خرید و فروخت کا پہلا تحریری معائدہ ہے جس پر برطانیہ کے ویزاعظم ڈیوڈ کیمرون نے شرمندگی کا اظہار کرتے ہوئے اسے تاجِ برطانیہ پر ایک بدنما دھبہ قرار دیتے ہوئے اہل کشمیر سے معافی مانگی۔ [4]
٭ تاریخی پس منظر رکھنے والی ریاست کشمیر کا نام جموں کشمیر رکھتے ہوئے لسانیت اور علاقائی ازم کی بنیاد ڈالی۔ جس سے لداخ، پونچھ اور گلگت بلتستان کی عوام میں احساس محرومی نے انگڑائی لی اور وہ ریاست کی وحدت سے خود کو الگ محسوس کرنا شروع ہو گے۔
مہذبی بنیادوں پر عوام کو تقسیم کیا۔ ہندو و مسلم کے لیے الگ الگ قوانین متعارف کروائے۔ مقتول اگر مسلم ہوتا تو اس کے خاندان کو 2 جبکہ کے ہندو ہوتا تو اس کے خاندان کو 4 روپے ادا کیے جاتے۔ [5]
٭ گائے کے ذبح کی سزا موت [6] جبکہ قران و ہدیث کی توہین پر کسی قسم کی سزا موجود نہیں تھی۔
٭ گلاب سنگھ نے جموں کشمیر میں ایسا سامراج قائم کیا جس میں ڈوگروں کو تو آقاوں کی حثیت دی گئی اور غیر ڈوگرہ طبقوں کو حقیر اور ادنی گردانا گیا ( تاریخِ جدوجہد آزادیِ کشمیر مصنف پریم ناتھ بزار، ص 144)
٭ کشمیر پر ڈوگرہ خاندان کی حکمرانی تھی اور پوری قوم غلامی کی زندگی گزار رہی تھی۔ ( شہید مقبول احمد بٹ، کیمپ جیل لاہور، 2 اپریل 1973)
٭ جموں کشمیر میں سڑک کے کنارے پکے چبوترے اور خوض بنے ہوئے تھے اور جھرنوں کا پانی لوھے کے نل کے ذریعے چوبیس گھنٹے ان پر گرتا رہتا تھا۔ ہندوں اور ڈوگرے ان نلوں کی دھار کے نیچے کھٹرے ہو کر نہاتے تھے کپڑے بھی دھوتے تھے اور پانی بھی پتے تھے۔ مسلمانوں کو ان چبوتروں کے پاس تک پھٹکنے کی اجازت نہ تھی کیونکہ ان کے چھونے سے چشمے کا صاف پانی ناپاک ہو کر بھرشٹ ہو جاتا تھا۔ جو بچا کھچا مستعمل پانی چپوتروں سے بہے کر نکلتا تھا اس کی نکاس سٹرک کی دوسری جانب نشیب کی طرف تھی یہاں سے یہ از سرنو ایک بیمار سی آبجو بن کر نیچے کی طرف رواں ہو جاتا تھا۔ اس سکنڈ ہنڈ پانی کو اپنے استعمال میں لانے کے لیے مسلمانوں کو کھلی چھٹی تھی۔ [7]
٭ کشمری مسلمان کا بال بال ڈوگرا حکومت کے لاتعداد ٹیکسوں میں جکڑا رہتا تھا، پھول پر ٹیکس، سبزی پر ٹیکس، بھیڑ، بکری اور گائے پر ٹیکس، چولہا ٹیکس، کھڑکی ٹیکس، اُون ٹیکس، شال ٹیکس، بخار اور خیاط ٹیکس، مزدور اور معمار پر ٹیکس، نانبائی اور لوہار پر ٹیکس، ملاح اور کمہار پر ٹیکس، اربابِ نشاط پر ٹیکس، (طوائف پر ٹیکس ) بس فقط ایک حجام تھا ٹیکسوں کی مکڑی کے جالے میں کسی وجہ سے گرفتار نہ تھا۔[8]
٭ قتل و غارت گیری کی جو روایت گلاب سنگھ نے ڈالی اس پر اس کے جانشین بھی عمل پیرائے رہے اور پہلی جنگ عظیم کے دوران عوام کی مرضی کے برعکس ریاست پونچھ کو جموں کشمیر میں شامل کرنے کی ہوس میں تابڑ توڑ حملے کر کے خون کی ندیاں بہا دی گئی۔[9]
اس کے جانشین ہری سنگھ نے 1931ء میں توہین قران و خطبہ کے خلاف ایک احتجاجی مظاہرے کے دوران اذان دیتے ہوئے 22 نوجوانوں کو گولی مار کر شہید کر دیا۔ [10]
٭ 1947ء میں جب کشمیری عوام نے ہری سنگھ کہ شخصی راج کے خلاف المِ بغاوت بلند کرتے ہوئے اسکہ خلاف ہتھیار اٹھا کر اسے ملک بدر کیا تو اس نے ہندوستان سے کشمیر کی وزاتِ اعلیٰ کے وعدے پر باقاعدہ تحریری الحاق کر دیا جسے جواز بنا کر ہندوستانی افواج کشمیر میں داخل ہو گئ اور تحریکِ آزادی کشمیر کو شدید نقصان پنہچا جس کا خمیازہ آج بھی اہل کشمیر بھگت رہے ہیں۔ [11]
(
٭ ٭ ماخذ (References) ٭ ٭
1- Hindu Rulers Muslim Subjects by Maridu Rae
2- جہدِ مسلسل بائے امان للہ خان،//، تاریخ کشمیر بائے ایم-ایل کپور،//، جموں فاکس بائے باوا ستندر سنگھ،//، کشمیر تہذیب و ثقافت بائے خوش دیو سنگھ ،//، و دیگر
3 - جموں کشمیر بک آف جنرل نالج (فرسٹ ایڈیشن) بائے سعید اسد،//، تاریخ کشمیر یعنی گلدستہ کشمیر بائے پنڈت ہرگوپال، مختصر تاریخ کشمیر بائے چراغ حسن حسرت و دیگر
4- Visitor Book of Jalianwala Bagh (Feb 2013)
5 & 6- ویلیم مور کرافٹ (Willson, H.H: Travels etc p.318)
7 & 8 - شہاب نامہ بائے قدرت اللہ شہاب
9- مختصر تاریخ کشمیر بائے چراغ حسن حسرت
10 & 11 - مختصر تاریخ کشمیر بائے چراغ حسن حسرت، //، جموں کشمیر بک آف جنرل نالج (فرسٹ ایڈیشن) بائے سعید اسد ،// ، اخبارات و رسائل 1947ء
@Shamain @fakhre mirpur @Umair Nawaz

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## Shamain

engineer saad said:


> Hum cheen k lein gei azadi.
> Hai Haq Hamara Azaadi.
> 
> رائم لسٹ/چارج شیٹ بنام ابو ظالم گلاب سنگھہ ایک درندہ صفت حکمران
> ٭ 1820ء کی دہائی میں رنجیت سنگھ کی خوشنودی کے لیے ریاست جموں کے عوام کا بے دریغ قتل کیا۔ اپنے حقوق کی جنگ لڑنے والے میاں دیدو سمیت سینکڑوں افراد کو قتل کیا اور ان کے ٹکڑے ٹکڑے کر کہ اپنی جہالت اور بیمار انا کو تسکین بخشی۔ [1]
> ٭ 1830ء کی دہائی میں ریاست پونچھ میں آزادی پسندوں نے مہاراجہ رنجیت سنگھ کے خلاف بغاوت کی اور اپنے حقوق کے لیے آواز بلند کرنے کی پادائش میں راجہ جموں گلاب سنگھ نے بحکم رنجیت سنگھ اہل پونچھ کو ناصرف گاجر مولی کی طرح کاٹ ڈالا بلکہ ان کی منظم نسل کشی بھی کی۔ سبز علی خان اور ملی خان کی زندہ کھالیں اتار کر درخت کے ساتھ الٹا لٹکا دیا تا کہ بچ جانے والے عبرت پکڑیں اور آئندہ اپنے حقوق کی بات نا کریں۔ [2]
> ٭ 1846ء میں انگریزوں سے ساز باز کرتے ہوئے جموں کشمیر کو 75 لاکھ نانک شاہی میں بیعنامہ امرتسر کے تحت خرید لیا [3] جو تاریخِِ انسانی میں انسانوں کی خرید و فروخت کا پہلا تحریری معائدہ ہے جس پر برطانیہ کے ویزاعظم ڈیوڈ کیمرون نے شرمندگی کا اظہار کرتے ہوئے اسے تاجِ برطانیہ پر ایک بدنما دھبہ قرار دیتے ہوئے اہل کشمیر سے معافی مانگی۔ [4]
> ٭ تاریخی پس منظر رکھنے والی ریاست کشمیر کا نام جموں کشمیر رکھتے ہوئے لسانیت اور علاقائی ازم کی بنیاد ڈالی۔ جس سے لداخ، پونچھ اور گلگت بلتستان کی عوام میں احساس محرومی نے انگڑائی لی اور وہ ریاست کی وحدت سے خود کو الگ محسوس کرنا شروع ہو گے۔
> مہذبی بنیادوں پر عوام کو تقسیم کیا۔ ہندو و مسلم کے لیے الگ الگ قوانین متعارف کروائے۔ مقتول اگر مسلم ہوتا تو اس کے خاندان کو 2 جبکہ کے ہندو ہوتا تو اس کے خاندان کو 4 روپے ادا کیے جاتے۔ [5]
> ٭ گائے کے ذبح کی سزا موت [6] جبکہ قران و ہدیث کی توہین پر کسی قسم کی سزا موجود نہیں تھی۔
> ٭ گلاب سنگھ نے جموں کشمیر میں ایسا سامراج قائم کیا جس میں ڈوگروں کو تو آقاوں کی حثیت دی گئی اور غیر ڈوگرہ طبقوں کو حقیر اور ادنی گردانا گیا ( تاریخِ جدوجہد آزادیِ کشمیر مصنف پریم ناتھ بزار، ص 144)
> ٭ کشمیر پر ڈوگرہ خاندان کی حکمرانی تھی اور پوری قوم غلامی کی زندگی گزار رہی تھی۔ ( شہید مقبول احمد بٹ، کیمپ جیل لاہور، 2 اپریل 1973)
> ٭ جموں کشمیر میں سڑک کے کنارے پکے چبوترے اور خوض بنے ہوئے تھے اور جھرنوں کا پانی لوھے کے نل کے ذریعے چوبیس گھنٹے ان پر گرتا رہتا تھا۔ ہندوں اور ڈوگرے ان نلوں کی دھار کے نیچے کھٹرے ہو کر نہاتے تھے کپڑے بھی دھوتے تھے اور پانی بھی پتے تھے۔ مسلمانوں کو ان چبوتروں کے پاس تک پھٹکنے کی اجازت نہ تھی کیونکہ ان کے چھونے سے چشمے کا صاف پانی ناپاک ہو کر بھرشٹ ہو جاتا تھا۔ جو بچا کھچا مستعمل پانی چپوتروں سے بہے کر نکلتا تھا اس کی نکاس سٹرک کی دوسری جانب نشیب کی طرف تھی یہاں سے یہ از سرنو ایک بیمار سی آبجو بن کر نیچے کی طرف رواں ہو جاتا تھا۔ اس سکنڈ ہنڈ پانی کو اپنے استعمال میں لانے کے لیے مسلمانوں کو کھلی چھٹی تھی۔ [7]
> ٭ کشمری مسلمان کا بال بال ڈوگرا حکومت کے لاتعداد ٹیکسوں میں جکڑا رہتا تھا، پھول پر ٹیکس، سبزی پر ٹیکس، بھیڑ، بکری اور گائے پر ٹیکس، چولہا ٹیکس، کھڑکی ٹیکس، اُون ٹیکس، شال ٹیکس، بخار اور خیاط ٹیکس، مزدور اور معمار پر ٹیکس، نانبائی اور لوہار پر ٹیکس، ملاح اور کمہار پر ٹیکس، اربابِ نشاط پر ٹیکس، (طوائف پر ٹیکس ) بس فقط ایک حجام تھا ٹیکسوں کی مکڑی کے جالے میں کسی وجہ سے گرفتار نہ تھا۔[8]
> ٭ قتل و غارت گیری کی جو روایت گلاب سنگھ نے ڈالی اس پر اس کے جانشین بھی عمل پیرائے رہے اور پہلی جنگ عظیم کے دوران عوام کی مرضی کے برعکس ریاست پونچھ کو جموں کشمیر میں شامل کرنے کی ہوس میں تابڑ توڑ حملے کر کے خون کی ندیاں بہا دی گئی۔[9]
> اس کے جانشین ہری سنگھ نے 1931ء میں توہین قران و خطبہ کے خلاف ایک احتجاجی مظاہرے کے دوران اذان دیتے ہوئے 22 نوجوانوں کو گولی مار کر شہید کر دیا۔ [10]
> ٭ 1947ء میں جب کشمیری عوام نے ہری سنگھ کہ شخصی راج کے خلاف المِ بغاوت بلند کرتے ہوئے اسکہ خلاف ہتھیار اٹھا کر اسے ملک بدر کیا تو اس نے ہندوستان سے کشمیر کی وزاتِ اعلیٰ کے وعدے پر باقاعدہ تحریری الحاق کر دیا جسے جواز بنا کر ہندوستانی افواج کشمیر میں داخل ہو گئ اور تحریکِ آزادی کشمیر کو شدید نقصان پنہچا جس کا خمیازہ آج بھی اہل کشمیر بھگت رہے ہیں۔ [11]
> (
> ٭ ٭ ماخذ (References) ٭ ٭
> 1- Hindu Rulers Muslim Subjects by Maridu Rae
> 2- جہدِ مسلسل بائے امان للہ خان،//، تاریخ کشمیر بائے ایم-ایل کپور،//، جموں فاکس بائے باوا ستندر سنگھ،//، کشمیر تہذیب و ثقافت بائے خوش دیو سنگھ ،//، و دیگر
> 3 - جموں کشمیر بک آف جنرل نالج (فرسٹ ایڈیشن) بائے سعید اسد،//، تاریخ کشمیر یعنی گلدستہ کشمیر بائے پنڈت ہرگوپال، مختصر تاریخ کشمیر بائے چراغ حسن حسرت و دیگر
> 4- Visitor Book of Jalianwala Bagh (Feb 2013)
> 5 & 6- ویلیم مور کرافٹ (Willson, H.H: Travels etc p.318)
> 7 & 8 - شہاب نامہ بائے قدرت اللہ شہاب
> 9- مختصر تاریخ کشمیر بائے چراغ حسن حسرت
> 10 & 11 - مختصر تاریخ کشمیر بائے چراغ حسن حسرت، //، جموں کشمیر بک آف جنرل نالج (فرسٹ ایڈیشن) بائے سعید اسد ،// ، اخبارات و رسائل 1947ء
> @Shamain @fakhre mirpur @Umair Nawaz


Kya matlab ,umean atrocities in jk had been going since 1800s something?? But pre 47 when they were oppressed ppl of rest of sub con were living better life compared to them??????

So the sufferings in jk go nearly 2 centuries back??????
I am really confused,


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## Burhan Wani

Shamain said:


> Kya matlab ,umean atrocities in jk had been going since 1800s something?? But pre 47 when they were oppressed ppl of rest of sub con were living better life compared to them??????
> 
> So the sufferings in jk go nearly 2 centuries back??????
> I am really confused,


Yea Dogra rule was the worst samraaj ever.
They try many time to capture poonch but poonchians oppose well.


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## Joe Shearer

engineer saad said:


> Hum cheen k lein gei azadi.
> Hai Haq Hamara Azaadi.
> 
> رائم لسٹ/چارج شیٹ بنام ابو ظالم گلاب سنگھہ ایک درندہ صفت حکمران
> ٭ 1820ء کی دہائی میں رنجیت سنگھ کی خوشنودی کے لیے ریاست جموں کے عوام کا بے دریغ قتل کیا۔ اپنے حقوق کی جنگ لڑنے والے میاں دیدو سمیت سینکڑوں افراد کو قتل کیا اور ان کے ٹکڑے ٹکڑے کر کہ اپنی جہالت اور بیمار انا کو تسکین بخشی۔ [1]
> ٭ 1830ء کی دہائی میں ریاست پونچھ میں آزادی پسندوں نے مہاراجہ رنجیت سنگھ کے خلاف بغاوت کی اور اپنے حقوق کے لیے آواز بلند کرنے کی پادائش میں راجہ جموں گلاب سنگھ نے بحکم رنجیت سنگھ اہل پونچھ کو ناصرف گاجر مولی کی طرح کاٹ ڈالا بلکہ ان کی منظم نسل کشی بھی کی۔ سبز علی خان اور ملی خان کی زندہ کھالیں اتار کر درخت کے ساتھ الٹا لٹکا دیا تا کہ بچ جانے والے عبرت پکڑیں اور آئندہ اپنے حقوق کی بات نا کریں۔ [2]
> ٭ 1846ء میں انگریزوں سے ساز باز کرتے ہوئے جموں کشمیر کو 75 لاکھ نانک شاہی میں بیعنامہ امرتسر کے تحت خرید لیا [3] جو تاریخِِ انسانی میں انسانوں کی خرید و فروخت کا پہلا تحریری معائدہ ہے جس پر برطانیہ کے ویزاعظم ڈیوڈ کیمرون نے شرمندگی کا اظہار کرتے ہوئے اسے تاجِ برطانیہ پر ایک بدنما دھبہ قرار دیتے ہوئے اہل کشمیر سے معافی مانگی۔ [4]
> ٭ تاریخی پس منظر رکھنے والی ریاست کشمیر کا نام جموں کشمیر رکھتے ہوئے لسانیت اور علاقائی ازم کی بنیاد ڈالی۔ جس سے لداخ، پونچھ اور گلگت بلتستان کی عوام میں احساس محرومی نے انگڑائی لی اور وہ ریاست کی وحدت سے خود کو الگ محسوس کرنا شروع ہو گے۔
> مہذبی بنیادوں پر عوام کو تقسیم کیا۔ ہندو و مسلم کے لیے الگ الگ قوانین متعارف کروائے۔ مقتول اگر مسلم ہوتا تو اس کے خاندان کو 2 جبکہ کے ہندو ہوتا تو اس کے خاندان کو 4 روپے ادا کیے جاتے۔ [5]
> ٭ گائے کے ذبح کی سزا موت [6] جبکہ قران و ہدیث کی توہین پر کسی قسم کی سزا موجود نہیں تھی۔
> ٭ گلاب سنگھ نے جموں کشمیر میں ایسا سامراج قائم کیا جس میں ڈوگروں کو تو آقاوں کی حثیت دی گئی اور غیر ڈوگرہ طبقوں کو حقیر اور ادنی گردانا گیا ( تاریخِ جدوجہد آزادیِ کشمیر مصنف پریم ناتھ بزار، ص 144)
> ٭ کشمیر پر ڈوگرہ خاندان کی حکمرانی تھی اور پوری قوم غلامی کی زندگی گزار رہی تھی۔ ( شہید مقبول احمد بٹ، کیمپ جیل لاہور، 2 اپریل 1973)
> ٭ جموں کشمیر میں سڑک کے کنارے پکے چبوترے اور خوض بنے ہوئے تھے اور جھرنوں کا پانی لوھے کے نل کے ذریعے چوبیس گھنٹے ان پر گرتا رہتا تھا۔ ہندوں اور ڈوگرے ان نلوں کی دھار کے نیچے کھٹرے ہو کر نہاتے تھے کپڑے بھی دھوتے تھے اور پانی بھی پتے تھے۔ مسلمانوں کو ان چبوتروں کے پاس تک پھٹکنے کی اجازت نہ تھی کیونکہ ان کے چھونے سے چشمے کا صاف پانی ناپاک ہو کر بھرشٹ ہو جاتا تھا۔ جو بچا کھچا مستعمل پانی چپوتروں سے بہے کر نکلتا تھا اس کی نکاس سٹرک کی دوسری جانب نشیب کی طرف تھی یہاں سے یہ از سرنو ایک بیمار سی آبجو بن کر نیچے کی طرف رواں ہو جاتا تھا۔ اس سکنڈ ہنڈ پانی کو اپنے استعمال میں لانے کے لیے مسلمانوں کو کھلی چھٹی تھی۔ [7]
> ٭ کشمری مسلمان کا بال بال ڈوگرا حکومت کے لاتعداد ٹیکسوں میں جکڑا رہتا تھا، پھول پر ٹیکس، سبزی پر ٹیکس، بھیڑ، بکری اور گائے پر ٹیکس، چولہا ٹیکس، کھڑکی ٹیکس، اُون ٹیکس، شال ٹیکس، بخار اور خیاط ٹیکس، مزدور اور معمار پر ٹیکس، نانبائی اور لوہار پر ٹیکس، ملاح اور کمہار پر ٹیکس، اربابِ نشاط پر ٹیکس، (طوائف پر ٹیکس ) بس فقط ایک حجام تھا ٹیکسوں کی مکڑی کے جالے میں کسی وجہ سے گرفتار نہ تھا۔[8]
> ٭ قتل و غارت گیری کی جو روایت گلاب سنگھ نے ڈالی اس پر اس کے جانشین بھی عمل پیرائے رہے اور پہلی جنگ عظیم کے دوران عوام کی مرضی کے برعکس ریاست پونچھ کو جموں کشمیر میں شامل کرنے کی ہوس میں تابڑ توڑ حملے کر کے خون کی ندیاں بہا دی گئی۔[9]
> اس کے جانشین ہری سنگھ نے 1931ء میں توہین قران و خطبہ کے خلاف ایک احتجاجی مظاہرے کے دوران اذان دیتے ہوئے 22 نوجوانوں کو گولی مار کر شہید کر دیا۔ [10]
> ٭ 1947ء میں جب کشمیری عوام نے ہری سنگھ کہ شخصی راج کے خلاف المِ بغاوت بلند کرتے ہوئے اسکہ خلاف ہتھیار اٹھا کر اسے ملک بدر کیا تو اس نے ہندوستان سے کشمیر کی وزاتِ اعلیٰ کے وعدے پر باقاعدہ تحریری الحاق کر دیا جسے جواز بنا کر ہندوستانی افواج کشمیر میں داخل ہو گئ اور تحریکِ آزادی کشمیر کو شدید نقصان پنہچا جس کا خمیازہ آج بھی اہل کشمیر بھگت رہے ہیں۔ [11]
> (
> ٭ ٭ ماخذ (References) ٭ ٭
> 1- Hindu Rulers Muslim Subjects by Maridu Rae
> 2- جہدِ مسلسل بائے امان للہ خان،//، تاریخ کشمیر بائے ایم-ایل کپور،//، جموں فاکس بائے باوا ستندر سنگھ،//، کشمیر تہذیب و ثقافت بائے خوش دیو سنگھ ،//، و دیگر
> 3 - جموں کشمیر بک آف جنرل نالج (فرسٹ ایڈیشن) بائے سعید اسد،//، تاریخ کشمیر یعنی گلدستہ کشمیر بائے پنڈت ہرگوپال، مختصر تاریخ کشمیر بائے چراغ حسن حسرت و دیگر
> 4- Visitor Book of Jalianwala Bagh (Feb 2013)
> 5 & 6- ویلیم مور کرافٹ (Willson, H.H: Travels etc p.318)
> 7 & 8 - شہاب نامہ بائے قدرت اللہ شہاب
> 9- مختصر تاریخ کشمیر بائے چراغ حسن حسرت
> 10 & 11 - مختصر تاریخ کشمیر بائے چراغ حسن حسرت، //، جموں کشمیر بک آف جنرل نالج (فرسٹ ایڈیشن) بائے سعید اسد ،// ، اخبارات و رسائل 1947ء
> @Shamain @fakhre mirpur @Umair Nawaz



*Maridu Rae* indeed.



engineer saad said:


> Yea Dogra rule was the worst samraaj ever.
> They try many time to capture poonch but poonchians oppose well.



Really? Poonch was never under Dogra rule?


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## Burhan Wani

Joe Shearer said:


> *Maridu Rae* indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Poonch was never under Dogra rule?


Poonch was under dogra rule but they faced a lot of opposition time to time. Poonch occupation was not a piece of cake. The final rebellion was started in october 1947 and the major areas were liberated by handful ex british army officers.

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## Joe Shearer

engineer saad said:


> Poonch was under dogra rule but they faced a lot of opposition time to time. Poonch occupation was not a piece of cake. The final rebellion was started in october 1947 and the major areas were liberated by handful ex british army officers.



Get your facts straight.

Poonch was under Dogra rule from much earlier; the ruling family was a distant branch of the family that ruled Jammu. The final rebellion as you describe it was a movement led by a communal breakaway from the National Conference that reverted to the old name of Muslim Conference. The major areas 'liberated' were nothing to do with Poonch; they were the portions of Gilgit leased by the British from the state of J&K, which reverted to the state on August 1, 1947. The mutiny, not rebellion, was led by Major Alexander Brown, who was naturally given the Hilal-e-Pakistan. The reference to "handful ex british army officers" (sic) that you refer to must be further amplified by your fertile imagination.

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## Burhan Wani

Joe Shearer said:


> Get your facts straight.
> 
> Poonch was under Dogra rule from much earlier; the ruling family was a distant branch of the family that ruled Jammu. The final rebellion as you describe it was a movement led by a communal breakaway from the National Conference that reverted to the old name of Muslim Conference. The major areas 'liberated' were nothing to do with Poonch; they were the portions of Gilgit leased by the British from the state of J&K, which reverted to the state on August 1, 1947. The mutiny, not rebellion, was led by Major Alexander Brown, who was naturally given the Hilal-e-Pakistan. The reference to "handful ex british army officers" (sic) that you refer to must be further amplified by your fertile imagination.


You are talking to a wrong man.

*First rebellion:*
By Sudhan clan residents of poonch on behalf of Syed Ahmad Shaheed Brelvi.
*Year: 1832
Enemy loss*: More than 5000 sikh and hindu soldiers.
*Our loss*: 15000 including women, children and Sudhan Mujahideen.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=660757930641969














*Second Rebellion: *
By Sardar Muzammil khan and Sardar Shams khan
*Year 1856- 1888 *Gurilla attacks on enemy camps.

Enemy Losses: Remarkable loss
Our Loss: 93 Included families of Mujahideen.

*Third Rebellion:*
Sardar Bahadur Ali khan shaheed
Year: 1899 - 1932




Final Rebellion:
*Year October 1947*:
40,000 World War veterans/Ex British army officers and jawans under supervision of first Azad Kashmir president Sardar Ibrahim Khan. Formation of Azad Kashmir regiment.
*Enemy Loss:* 20,000 included area loss *13,297 bloody km².
Our Loss:* 8,000 included women,children and Mujahideen.




















@waz @fakhre mirpur @Shamain @WAJsal @Kashir

@Joe Shearer On your request i can share you similar rebellion after 1949 to on wards.

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## Burhan Wani




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## Joe Shearer

engineer saad said:


> Poonch was under dogra rule but they faced a lot of opposition time to time. Poonch occupation was not a piece of cake. The final rebellion was started in october 1947 and the major areas were liberated by handful ex british army officers.



Get your facts straight.

Poonch was under Dogra rule from much earlier; the ruling family was a distant branch of the family that ruled Jammu. The final rebellion as you describe it was a movement led by a communal breakaway from the National Conference that reverted to the old name of Muslim Conference. The major areas 'liberated' were nothing to do with Poonch; they were the portions of Gilgit leased by the British from the state of J&K, which reverted to the state on August 1, 1947. The mutiny, not rebellion, was led by Major Alexander Brown, who was naturally given the Hilal-e-Pakistan. The reference to "handful ex british army officers" (sic) that you refer to must be further amplified by your fertile imagination.


engineer saad said:


> *You are talking to a wrong man.*




*Undeniable. Couldn't possibly get more wrong.*

*



First rebellion:

Click to expand...

*


> By Sudhan clan residents of poonch on behalf of Syed Ahmad Shaheed Brelvi.
> * Year: 1832
> *


*
*
*You might like to consult someone who is not an engineer - hint: look for the right man - to find out when Dogra rule started, and the rule of the Lahore Durbar ended. *
*



Enemy loss

Click to expand...

*


> : More than 5000 sikh and hindu soldiers.
> *Our loss*: 15000 including women, children and Sudhan Mujahideen.



*



Second Rebellion:

Click to expand...

*


> By Sardar Muzammil khan and Sardar Shams khan
> *Year 1856- 1888 *Gurilla attacks on enemy camps.
> 
> Enemy Losses: Remarkable loss
> Our Loss: 93 Included families of Mujahideen.



*Truly a remarkable account. Also the first occurrence of gurilla warfare in south Asia.*



> Third Rebellion:
> Sardar Bahadur Ali khan shaheed
> Year: 1899 - 1932



What? No figures? No 540 families killed (no soldiers, or fighting men) against 54,000 Hindu and Sikh Soldiers killed on the other side? 



> Final Rebellion:
> *Year October 1947*:
> *40,000 World War veterans/Ex British army officers and jawans under supervision of first Azad Kashmir president Sardar Ibrahim Khan. Formation of Azad Kashmir regiment.*




_Definitely_* the wrong man.*

*Ask your nearest expert - preferably not another wrong man - the difference between the British Army and the Indian Army. It is wonderful to read an account of 40,000 ex-British Army officers and jawans getting involved in a rebellion.*

*The truth of the matter is that this was nothing to do with Poonch, it was everything to do with Akbar Khan and his Pakistani-Army sponsored raiders - kabalis - largely demobbed veterans of the Indian Army. *

*But then, I'm talking to the wrong man.*

*



Enemy Loss:

Click to expand...

*


> 20,000 included area loss *13,297 bloody km².
> Our Loss:* 8,000 included women,children and Mujahideen.



If this weren't so embarrassing, it would have been hilariously funny.

Thank you, Mr. "wrong man", you made my Sunday.

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## Burhan Wani

Joe Shearer said:


> Get your facts straight.
> 
> Poonch was under Dogra rule from much earlier; the ruling family was a distant branch of the family that ruled Jammu. The final rebellion as you describe it was a movement led by a communal breakaway from the National Conference that reverted to the old name of Muslim Conference. The major areas 'liberated' were nothing to do with Poonch; they were the portions of Gilgit leased by the British from the state of J&K, which reverted to the state on August 1, 1947. The mutiny, not rebellion, was led by Major Alexander Brown, who was naturally given the Hilal-e-Pakistan. The reference to "handful ex british army officers" (sic) that you refer to must be further amplified by your fertile imagination.
> 
> 
> If this weren't so embarrassing, it would have been hilariously funny.
> 
> Thank you, Mr. "wrong man", you made my Sunday.


Haters Gonna hate.
A bitter truth. Go and enjoy your Dogra rule on another forum.

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## Joe Shearer

engineer saad said:


> Haters Gonna hate.
> A bitter truth. Go and enjoy your Dogra rule on another forum.



No, thanks. I enjoy enjoying it here. And all the 'wrong men' rolling about on the floor. Where would I get entertainment like this elsewhere?

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## Burhan Wani

Joe Shearer said:


> No, thanks. I enjoy enjoying it here. And all the 'wrong men' rolling about on the floor. Where would I get entertainment like this elsewhere?


Have a look with a pain killer. 
Interviews of Dogra war Mujahideen


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## Joe Shearer

For the Buffoon Brigade - enjoy (hope you can read it while lying on the floor)

*Gulab Singh* (1792–1857) was the founder of royal Dogra dynasty and first Maharaja of the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir, the second largest princely state in British India, which was created after the defeat of the Sikhs in the First Anglo-Sikh War. The Treaty of Amritsar, 1846, formalised the sale by the British to Gulab Singh for 7,500,000 Nanakshahee Rupees of all the lands in Kashmir that were ceded to them by the Sikhs by the Treaty of Lahore.



engineer saad said:


> Have a look with a pain killer.
> Interviews of Dogra war Mujahideen



You are getting better and better. No pain killers needed while you are around. Or any other shape.

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## Burhan Wani

@Joe Shearer 
Kabaili Lahskars are summoned in late 1948 they came here to attack Srinagar and reinforcement to Azad Kashmir Regular forces now AK regiment.
Before their arrival many areas of Poonch,Mirpur, Rawalakot Kotli etc were liberated.



Joe Shearer said:


> For the Buffoon Brigade - enjoy (hope you can read it while lying on the floor)
> 
> *Gulab Singh* (1792–1857) was the founder of royal Dogra dynasty and first Maharaja of the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir, the second largest princely state in British India, which was created after the defeat of the Sikhs in the First Anglo-Sikh War. The Treaty of Amritsar, 1846, formalised the sale by the British to Gulab Singh for 7,500,000 Nanakshahee Rupees of all the lands in Kashmir that were ceded to them by the Sikhs by the Treaty of Lahore.
> 
> 
> 
> You are getting better and better. No pain killers needed while you are around. Or any other shape.


1832 rebellion was directly associated with Shah Ismail Shaheed and Syed Ahmad Shaheed. You are trying to mix facts.
Shah Ismail Shaheed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Amritsar treaty included only Jammu and Kashmir, not Poonch,Kishtwar, and GB.

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## Joe Shearer

engineer saad said:


> @Joe Shearer
> Kabaili Lahskars are summoned in late 1948 they came here to attack Srinagar and reinforcement to Azad Kashmir Regular forces now AK regiment.
> Before their arrival many areas of Poonch,Mirpur, Rawalakot Kotli etc were liberated.



Thank you for your engineered history.

I don't know who has befuddled you, but this is the story as told by a somewhat more reliable Pakistani authority:


*Indo-Pakistan War 1947-1948[edit]*
At the time of the independence of Pakistan in 1947, Akbar Khan was a member of the sub-committee involved in division the armed forces between India and Pakistan.

*Akbar Khan's own book Raiders in Kashmir (National Book Foundation, Pakistan, 1975) gives a thorough account of his role in the Pakistani attack on Hari Singh's Jammu and Kashmir. His principal role was in arranging guns and devising strategies for war and revolt by Sardar Ibrahim's branch of the Muslim Conference against Hari Singh with the help of the Pakistan Army. He makes clear he was ignorant of the Pashtun laskars that came to be organised by Khurshid Anwar that invaded on 22 October.
*
[So much for the engineered date of 1948. Looks like you got it one year wrong. Not bad by your standards.]

*Less than two months after Independence, fighting started in **Kashmir**, the Indian Army landed in **Srinagar** and confronted the Pathan tribesmen who were advancing towards the valley. Akbar Khan, who was then a Brigadier, assumed command of the regulars and irregulars fighting against the Indian forces and was given the code name "General Tariq".*

[1948? What a laugh! How come you aren't rolling about on the ground?]



engineer saad said:


> @Joe Shearer
> Kabaili Lahskars are summoned in late 1948 they came here to attack Srinagar and reinforcement to Azad Kashmir Regular forces now AK regiment.
> Before their arrival many areas of Poonch,Mirpur, Rawalakot Kotli etc were liberated.
> 
> 
> 1832 rebellion was directly associated with Shah Ismail Shaheed and Syed Ahmad Shaheed. You are trying to mix facts.
> Shah Ismail Shaheed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Amritsar treaty included only Jammu and Kashmir, not Poonch,Kishtwar, and GB.



I suggest you read the Amritsar Treaty and its wording, before gassing about. 

Kishtwar and Gilgit-Baltistan were captured separately; Poonch was not.

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## Burhan Wani

Joe Shearer said:


> Thank you for your engineered history.
> 
> I don't know who has befuddled you, but this is the story as told by a somewhat more reliable Pakistani authority:
> 
> 
> *Indo-Pakistan War 1947-1948[edit]*
> At the time of the independence of Pakistan in 1947, Akbar Khan was a member of the sub-committee involved in division the armed forces between India and Pakistan.
> 
> *Akbar Khan's own book Raiders in Kashmir (National Book Foundation, Pakistan, 1975) gives a thorough account of his role in the Pakistani attack on Hari Singh's Jammu and Kashmir. His principal role was in arranging guns and devising strategies for war and revolt by Sardar Ibrahim's branch of the Muslim Conference against Hari Singh with the help of the Pakistan Army. He makes clear he was ignorant of the **Pashtun laskars** that came to be organised by Khurshid Anwar that invaded on 22 October.
> *
> [So much for the engineered date of 1948. Looks like you got it one year wrong. Not bad by your standards.]
> 
> *Less than two months after Independence, fighting started in **Kashmir**, the Indian Army landed in **Srinagar** and confronted the Pathan tribesmen who were advancing towards the valley. Akbar Khan, who was then a Brigadier, assumed command of the regulars and irregulars fighting against the Indian forces and was given the code name "General Tariq".*
> 
> [1948? What a laugh! How come you aren't rolling about on the ground?]
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest you read the Amritsar Treaty and its wording, before gassing about.
> 
> Kishtwar and Gilgit-Baltistan were captured separately; Poonch was not.


You are trying to share biased history. Let me clear Sudhan are Pathans and you are mixing them with mehsud and Afridis from FATA.
Before Amritsar treaty poonch was a princely state under command of malidyal Mughal Shams Khan.
Shams khan was poisoned from a traitor before final strike by Dogra military.


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## Joe Shearer

@Engineer


engineer saad said:


> You are trying to share biased history. Let me clear Sudhan are Pathans and you are mixing them with mehsud and Afridis from FATA.
> Before Amritsar treaty poonch was a princely state under command of malidyal Mughal Shams Khan.
> Shams khan was poisoned from a traitor before final strike by Dogra military.



No, I don't share biased or any other kind of 'engineered' history. 

Try to stop quoting from silly blogs and get real.

First, there is nothing that I wrote about the Sudans. I wrote about the imported qabalis from FATA, organised to raid Srinagar, and centred on the areas of Poonch that were under the control of the Muslims of Poonch. 

Second, the Amritsar treaty included - watch the wording - all the parts of Kashmir ceded to the British by the Lahore Durbar in their own peace treaty. 

Third, Poonch was a principality that was put under the Jammu durbar as a jagir in 1836 (after your date of 1832 for the so-called first rebellion that you have mentioned) by the Lahore Durbar. From 1836 onwards, Poonch was a subordinate state of Jammu, and then, from 1842, of Jammu & Kashmir.

Fourth, it was the Muslims of Poonch that revolted - against their own Raja as well as the suzerain Jammu Raja - in 1947. I don't know what you are doing messing around with the date of 1948. 

Fifth, the qabalis marched on to Baramula on their way to Srinagar; the Poonch Muslims had little to do with it. Just mentioned this for the record, to show how stupid was the figure of real estate captured by the initial rebellion.

Sixth, this southern column had nothing to do with the northern events of the mutiny in Gilgit-Baltistan led by Major Brown (no other British) and the Gilgit Scouts with the state forces of Chitral. That northern column took Skardu and then Kargil and besieged Leh, and was thrown out by the Indian Army.

If you do not know your facts and your history, and want to wallow in a sentimental bath of imaginary events and mythical heroes, feel free. Just acknowledge that it is good for your mental stability to do so from time to time; don't pretend it is history. 

I don't intend to waste any more time on you.

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## Burhan Wani

Joe Shearer said:


> @Engineer
> 
> 
> No, I don't share biased or any other kind of 'engineered' history.
> 
> Try to stop quoting from silly blogs and get real.
> 
> First, there is nothing that I wrote about the Sudans. I wrote about the imported qabalis from FATA, organised to raid Srinagar, and centred on the areas of Poonch that were under the control of the Muslims of Poonch.
> 
> Second, the Amritsar treaty included - watch the wording - all the parts of Kashmir ceded to the British by the Lahore Durbar in their own peace treaty.
> 
> Third, Poonch was a principality that was put under the Jammu durbar as a jagir in 1836 (after your date of 1832 for the so-called first rebellion that you have mentioned) by the Lahore Durbar. From 1836 onwards, Poonch was a subordinate state of Jammu, and then, from 1842, of Jammu & Kashmir.
> 
> Fourth, it was the Muslims of Poonch that revolted - against their own Raja as well as the suzerain Jammu Raja - in 1947. I don't know what you are doing messing around with the date of 1948.
> 
> Fifth, the qabalis marched on to Baramula on their way to Srinagar; the Poonch Muslims had little to do with it. Just mentioned this for the record, to show how stupid was the figure of real estate captured by the initial rebellion.
> 
> Sixth, this southern column had nothing to do with the northern events of the mutiny in Gilgit-Baltistan led by Major Brown (no other British) and the Gilgit Scouts with the state forces of Chitral. That northern column took Skardu and then Kargil and besieged Leh, and was thrown out by the Indian Army.
> 
> If you do not know your facts and your history, and want to wallow in a sentimental bath of imaginary events and mythical heroes, feel free. Just acknowledge that it is good for your mental stability to do so from time to time; don't pretend it is history.
> 
> I don't intend to waste any more time on you.


1. You said some one distributed rifles and ammunition to tribals came from FATA to invade Kashmir. Are you nuts it is a tradition of Tribes to hold best rifles of their time. They came here with their home made rifles to distribute them towards newly formed Azad Kashmir regiment (AKRF)
2. Amritsar treaty includes only Jammu and Kashmir i don't know why you are trying to merge princely state poonch under this treaty. May be your personal desire.
3. There is nothing like subordinate poonch. Poonch was under control of Mughal ruler Shams Khan from Malidiyal clan and after his death Dogra take over some areas of poonch.
4. Yes muslims of Poonch started rebellion under command of Sardar Ibrahim Khan, Col Khan Muhammad Khan, Major Hassan Jurral, Sardar Qayyum Khan Abbasi,CAptain Bostan khan, CAptain Hussain and they liberated major areas of Poonch without external Help.
5. Tribes came here as a reinforcement because they are very well equipped compared to Pakistan Army. Before their arrival Sardar Ibrahim With the help of fellow Kashmiris he launched ‘Jihad’ against the Maharaja and after a long and vigorous fight, he defeated the forces of Maharaja on 24 October 1947 and laid the foundation of independent state of Azad Kashmir. Sardar Muhammad Ibrahim Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Raja Muhammad Sarwar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
6. Major Hassan jurral was moved from rajouri to initiate rebellion against Dogras while he was fighting with Sardar Ibrahim to take over rajouri.
I recommend you to read book Khaki Shadows if you really want to know real facts and events. I hope you will enjoy remarkable defeat of your beloved Dogras.
A pain killer awaits you.
Bravo. 
@waz @Shamain @fakhre mirpur @Kashir I hope it will be helpful for you on wards.

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## Shamain

engineer saad said:


> 1. You said some one distributed rifles and ammunition to tribals came from FATA to invade Kashmir. Are you nuts it is a tradition of Tribes to hold best rifles of their time. They came here with their home made rifles to distribute them towards newly formed Azad Kashmir regiment (AKRF)
> 2. Amritsar treaty includes only Jammu and Kashmir i don't know why you are trying to merge princely state poonch under this treaty. May be your personal desire.
> 3. There is nothing like subordinate poonch. Poonch was under control of Mughal ruler Shams Khan from Malidiyal clan and after his death Dogra take over some areas of poonch.
> 4. Yes muslims of Poonch started rebellion under command of Sardar Ibrahim Khan, Col Khan Muhammad Khan, Major Hassan Jurral, Sardar Qayyum Khan Abbasi,CAptain Bostan khan, CAptain Hussain and they liberated major areas of Poonch without external Help.
> 5. Tribes came here as a reinforcement because they are very well equipped compared to Pakistan Army. Before their arrival Sardar Ibrahim With the help of fellow Kashmiris he launched ‘Jihad’ against the Maharaja and after a long and vigorous fight, he defeated the forces of Maharaja on 24 October 1947 and laid the foundation of independent state of Azad Kashmir. Sardar Muhammad Ibrahim Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Raja Muhammad Sarwar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 6. Major Hassan jurral was moved from rajouri to initiate rebellion against Dogras while he was fighting with Sardar Ibrahim to take over rajouri.
> I recommend you to read book Khaki Shadows if you really want to know real facts and events. I hope you will enjoy remarkable defeat of your beloved Dogras.
> A pain killer awaits you.
> Bravo.
> @waz @Shamain @fakhre mirpur @Kashir I hope it will be helpful for you on wards.


Willl u stop bothering with this stupid troll joe Sherear he can shove his version of history which is so clearly false and silly. Choro ghaas naa daalo fazool logon ko.
U can tag and ask waz he knows a lot abt it. 

Pata nahi kahan say clowns ajatay hain uth kay.


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## Burhan Wani

Shamain said:


> Willl u stop bothering with this stupid troll joe Sherear he can shove his version of history which is so clearly false and silly. Choro ghaas naa daalo fazool logon ko.
> U can tag and ask waz he knows a lot abt it.
> 
> Pata nahi kahan say clowns ajatay hain uth kay.


He was thinking him Think Tank. Pakistan army ne FATA tribals ko rifles di thein hahahahahah. that was epic.
Lo another veteran of war 1947 lt Col Mahmood 4 Ak regiment.

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## Joe Shearer

As I have already made clear, I have no time to waste on this kind of parlour game. Good luck with your continued engineering of history. Perhaps some day, some one, somewhere will actually take you seriously. But not here, not now.


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## Burhan Wani

Joe Shearer said:


> As I have already made clear, I have no time to waste on this kind of parlour game. Good luck with your continued engineering of history. Perhaps some day, some one, somewhere will actually take you seriously. But not here, not now.


First answer these questions then think about to murder me. 

1. You said some one distributed rifles and ammunition to tribals came from FATA to invade Kashmir. Are you nuts it is a tradition of Tribes to hold best rifles of their time. They came here with their home made rifles to distribute them towards newly formed Azad Kashmir regiment (AKRF)
2. Amritsar treaty includes only Jammu and Kashmir i don't know why you are trying to merge princely state poonch under this treaty. May be your personal desire.
3. There is nothing like subordinate poonch. Poonch was under control of Mughal ruler Shams Khan from Malidiyal clan and after his death Dogra take over some areas of poonch.
4. Yes muslims of Poonch started rebellion under command of Sardar Ibrahim Khan, Col Khan Muhammad Khan, Major Hassan Jurral, Sardar Qayyum Khan Abbasi,CAptain Bostan khan, CAptain Hussain and they liberated major areas of Poonch without external Help.
5. Tribes came here as a reinforcement because they are very well equipped compared to Pakistan Army. Before their arrival Sardar Ibrahim With the help of fellow Kashmiris he launched ‘Jihad’ against the Maharaja and after a long and vigorous fight, he defeated the forces of Maharaja on 24 October 1947 and laid the foundation of independent state of Azad Kashmir. Sardar Muhammad Ibrahim Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaRaja Muhammad Sarwar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
6. Major Hassan jurral was moved from rajouri to initiate rebellion against Dogras while he was fighting with Sardar Ibrahim to take over rajouri.

Source: Kashmir | News & Discussions. | Page 1486


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## Joe Shearer

engineer saad said:


> First answer these questions then think about to murder me.



_*Murder* you? Whatever for? Why would I waste time on a nonentity?_



> 1. You said some one distributed rifles and ammunition to tribals came from FATA to invade Kashmir. Are you nuts it is a tradition of Tribes to hold best rifles of their time. They came here with their home made rifles to distribute them towards newly formed Azad Kashmir regiment (AKRF)



_You may not be good at fighting, but you are very good at myth-making.

It's on record. From both American and Pakistani sources. Maybe they are nuts. But they are not your kind of sentimentalist, mooning over totally false information received as grandmother's tales, and believing them to be the truth. 

The tribals were not using home-made rifles, they were using military issue weapons.

First read Bourke-White:

On occasions Bourke-White was able to slip out unescorted and meet tribal Pashtun invaders. She narrates her conversation with one Invader leader, Badsha Gul of Mohmand tribe. Gul had brought one thousand tribals, a convoy of trucks and ammunition for invasion of Kashmir. The trucks and buses would at times come back within a day or two "*bursting with loot, only to return to Kashmir with more tribesmen, to repeat their indiscriminate "liberating" - and terrorising of Hindu, Sikh, and Muslim villagers alike".*

About the buses and lorries Bourke-White writes *"taxi companies (in Rawalpindi) were donating twenty or ten or a couple of trucks each, the number I suppose depending on the intensity with which the owner believed the Muslims in Kashmir needed 'rescuing'.*

Bourke-White debunked the myths that arms for the invasion came from tribesmen themselves, some of whom owned arms factories. She writes, *"I photographed one of the larger of these munition works, belonging to the Afridi tribe. It was a rock-bound shack where five men worked. Since it took one man a month to make a rifle, it is doubtful whether all the shacks on the North-West Frontier would account for more than a fraction of the equipment with which the tribesmen poured into Kashmir during the fall of '47. Certainly these miniature ballistics establishment would hardly explain the mortars, other heavy modern weapons, and the two aeroplanes with which the invaders were equipped".*

In an eyewitness account about the delivery of arms she writes, *"InPakistan towns close to the border, arms were handed out before daylight to tribesmen directly from the front steps of the Muslim League headquarters".*

She makes revelations e.g. *'From Pakistan's Capital a train loaded with medical supplies and volunteer personnel left every Wednesday morning for the Kashmir frontier, "some of the 'Azad Kashmir' soldiers, taken as PoWs by the Indian army, were found to have pay books of the Pakistan Army in their pockets'.*

While Bourke-White was still in Abottabad she had the opportunity to meet the nuns from St. Joseph Hospital in Baramulla who survived the carnage. They had escaped over the border at dawn. A nurse gave her a detailed description of how raiders ransacked the babies' ward on the Convent grounds. She said, *"the tribesmen began smashing up X-Ray equipment, throwing medicine bottles to the ground, ripping the statuettes of saints out of the chapel, and shooting up the place generally. Two patients were killed: an Englishman and his wife who were vacationing at the mission were murdered; and two nuns were shot".*

For nine days Baramulla witnessed reign of terror under the forces of occupation. About the situation in the Convent Bourke-White records, "*The nuns, their hospital patients, and a few stray towns people who had taken refugee at the mission were herded into a single dormitory and kept under rifle guard. On one of these days, after an air attack from the Indian Army had left the tribesmen in a particularly escited and nervous mood, six of the nuns were brought out and lined upto be shot. It was the accident that one of them had a conspicuous gold tooth that saved the sisters. One of the riflemen wanted to get that tooth, before his colleagues had a chance at it. In the scuffle that followed, one of their chiefs arrived; he had enough vision to realise that shooting nuns was not the thing to do, even in an invasion, and the nuns were saved".*

Bourke-White visited Baramulla soon after its liberation by Indian forces. She records, *"The once lovely town, straddling the Jhelum River at the gateway to the Valley, was as heaped with rubble and blackened with fire as those battered Jewels of Italian towns through which many of us moved during our war in Italy...the deserted convent on the hill was badly defaced and littered...We made our way into the ravaged Chapel, Wading through the mass of torn hymnbooks and broken sacred statuary. The altar was deep in rubble". *She also gives a graphic account of how martyr Maqbool Sherwani was killed by Pakistanis. Bourke-White met Sherwani's father and brothers. On seeing Sherwani's photograph Bourke-White notes, *"Even the soft-focus effect of the fuzzy studio portrait could not erase the intensity of the eyes and the look of strength in the high forehead". (Sentinel Research Bureau)*

Now read Akbar Khan.

*Raiders' Evidence *

Major General Mohammad Akbar Khan was in active service in the Pakistan Army in October 1947. He commanded the raiders under the pseudonym "General Tariq". Excerpts of his interview published in the *"Defence Journal"* (Karachi, June-July, 1985) are reproduced below:

*Planning of the Invasion:*
"A few weeks after partition, I was asked by Mian Iftikharuddin on behalf of Liaquat Ali Khan (Prime Minister of Pakistan) to prepare a plan for action in Kashmir. I found that the Army was holding 4,000 rifles for the civil police. If these could be given to the locals an armed uprising in Kashmir could be organised at suitable places, I wrote a plan on this basis and gave it to Mian Iftikharuddin. I was called to a meeting with Liaquat Ali Khan at Lahore where the plan was adopted, responsibilities alloted and orders issued. Everything was to be kept secret from the Army. In September the 4,000 rifles were issued at various places and the first shots were exchanged with the Maharaja's troops and the movement gathered weight.

He *(Khurshid Anwar)* had joined the Muslim League and he had been appointed commander of the Muslim League National Guards. In September 1947, when the Prime Minister launched the movement of the Kashmir "struggle" Khurshid Anwar was appointed Commander of the Northern Sector. Khurshid Anwar then went to Peshawar and with the apparent help of Khan Qayyum Khan raised the Lashkar which assembled at Abbottabad... Thereafter he (Khan Qayyum Khan) continued to take active interest in Kashmir and helped with the tribal Lashkars through the Kashmir operations."

*On Looting of Non-Muslims:*

"It was part of their (Pakistan Govt.) agreement with Major Khurshid Anwar of the Muslim League National Guards who was their leader that they would loot non-Muslims. They had no other renumeration". _



> 2. Amritsar treaty includes only Jammu and Kashmir i don't know why you are trying to merge princely state poonch under this treaty. May be your personal desire.



_Have you even bothered to read the document? Read it. First, it did not include Jammu. Jammu already belonged to the Dogras. Second, it included all that part of Kashmir that had been ceded to the British by the Lahore Durbar. That included the Vale._



> 3. There is nothing like subordinate poonch. Poonch was under control of Mughal ruler Shams Khan from Malidiyal clan and after his death Dogra take over some areas of poonch.



_Are we supposed to believe that there was an independent kingdom right under the nose of the Sikhs? Really?

Poonch was under the Sikhs, and there was no independent ruler, as you seem to think. The rulers were Dogras related distantly to the Jammu Dogras. It was handed over to the Jammu Rajas as a jagir in 1836, losing its independent status in that year. _



> 4. Yes muslims of Poonch started rebellion under command of Sardar Ibrahim Khan, Col Khan Muhammad Khan, Major Hassan Jurral, Sardar Qayyum Khan Abbasi,CAptain Bostan khan, CAptain Hussain and they liberated major areas of Poonch without external Help.



_Of course they did. They were heroes and ten feet tall. 

Read Akbar Khan before going public with your nonsense._



> 5. Tribes came here as a reinforcement because they are very well equipped compared to Pakistan Army.



_Again, rubbish. You evidently live in a world of your own imagining.

Read both Akbar Khan and Margaret Bourke-White, and then read Tariq Ali. Apart from your folk tales, you have nothing to add._



> Before their arrival Sardar Ibrahim With the help of fellow Kashmiris he launched ‘Jihad’ against the Maharaja and after a long and vigorous fight, he defeated the forces of Maharaja on 24 October 1947 and laid the foundation of independent state of Azad Kashmir. Sardar Muhammad Ibrahim Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaRaja Muhammad Sarwar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



_And what is the point you are trying to make? That the Poonchis were alone? In spite of Akbar Khan's comments about the help that Pakistan gave the malcontents? _



> 6. Major Hassan jurral was moved from rajouri to initiate rebellion against Dogras while he was fighting with Sardar Ibrahim to take over rajouri.



_Again, what is the point of that statement?
_


> Source: Kashmir | News & Discussions. | Page 1486


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## Burhan Wani

Joe Shearer said:


> _*Murder* you? Whatever for? Why would I waste time on a nonentity?_
> 
> 
> 
> _You may not be good at fighting, but you are very good at myth-making.
> 
> It's on record. From both American and Pakistani sources. Maybe they are nuts. But they are not your kind of sentimentalist, mooning over totally false information received as grandmother's tales, and believing them to be the truth.
> 
> The tribals were not using home-made rifles, they were using military issue weapons.
> _
> 
> 
> 
> _Have you even bothered to read the document? Read it. First, it did not include Jammu. Jammu already belonged to the Dogras. Second, it included all that part of Kashmir that had been ceded to the British by the Lahore Durbar. That included the Vale._
> 
> 
> 
> _Are we supposed to believe that there was an independent kingdom right under the nose of the Sikhs? Really?
> 
> Poonch was under the Sikhs, and there was no independent ruler, as you seem to think. The rulers were Dogras related distantly to the Jammu Dogras. It was handed over to the Jammu Rajas as a jagir in 1836, losing its independent status in that year. _
> 
> 
> 
> _Of course they did. They were heroes and ten feet tall.
> 
> Read Akbar Khan before going public with your nonsense._
> 
> 
> 
> _Again, rubbish. You evidently live in a world of your own imagining.
> 
> Read both Akbar Khan and Margaret Bourke-White, and then read Tariq Ali. Apart from your folk tales, you have nothing to add._
> 
> 
> 
> _And what is the point you are trying to make? That the Poonchis were alone? In spite of Akbar Khan's comments about the help that Pakistan gave the malcontents? _
> 
> 
> 
> _Again, what is the point of that statement?_



_You may not be good at fighting, but you are very good at myth-making.
_
1. If we are not good at fighting then why British selected 80,000 poonchians to fight World war 2 and awarded military cross to our tirbesman.? These ex british army ww2 veterans with their personal struggle initiated rebellion against Dogra rulers.without any external help.









_
It's on record. From both American and Pakistani sources. Maybe they are nuts. But they are not your kind of sentimentalist, mooning over totally false information received as grandmother's tales, and believing them to be the truth.
_
2. "My research says in 1947 there were 50,000 Poonchis who had served in the British Army. Poonch was one of the major recruiting grounds for the British. These people would always think of themselves as fighters. There were no economic opportunities and inadequate landholdings in this area. So, most of them fought alongside the British, unlike Kashmiri Muslims, who had enough land to till and were involved in economic activities. *Poonchis had military and combat skills.* Although the Maharaja’s forces disarmed them, they went across the border to arms manufacturers in North-West Frontier Province and Dera Ismail Khan in Pakistan. T*hey had a lot of local support; they managed to liberate their own area, defeated the Dogra army and even captured their arms."
Christopher Snedden's interview. *

_The tribals were not using home-made rifles, they were using military issue weapons.
_
3. If they were using issued weapons from Pakistan Army then where were their own weapons? 



_Have you even bothered to read the document? Read it. First, it did not include Jammu. Jammu already belonged to the Dogras. Second, it included all that part of Kashmir that had been ceded to the British by the Lahore Durbar. That included the Vale._

4. Poonch was princely state it was not a part of Jammu and Kashmir. Yes you can desire.




_Of course they did. They were heroes and ten feet tall.
_
_ 5. Yes we are taller than Gorkhas.
_

_
And what is the point you are trying to make? That the Poonchis were alone? In spite of Akbar Khan's comments about the help that Pakistan gave the malcontents?_


6. Akbar Khan i am listening his name first time being a cloase relative of General Aziz Khan i will more trust local veterans.




_Again, what is the point of that statement?
_
7. Hassan Jural was close friend and veteran of Poonch rebellion. While we are trying to capture Rajouri he turned towards his native village in GB for rebellion.

Bravo.
@waz

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## Shamain

engineer saad said:


> @Joe Shearer
> Kabaili Lahskars are summoned in late 1948 they came here to attack Srinagar and reinforcement to Azad Kashmir Regular forces now AK regiment.
> Before their arrival many areas of Poonch,Mirpur, Rawalakot Kotli etc were liberated.
> 
> 
> 1832 rebellion was directly associated with Shah Ismail Shaheed and Syed Ahmad Shaheed. You are trying to mix facts.
> Shah Ismail Shaheed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Amritsar treaty included only Jammu and Kashmir, not Poonch,Kishtwar, and GB.


U didnt wnt to say 48 but 47. The weirdo went into seizure like fit over wrong year's mention.
Secondly, the rebellion in 1832 was against gulab singh rule. Dogra rule of entire state starts from 1846.

Rest let him cry clutching onto his own version of history which is typical stuff propagated by indians. He is an indian..whatelse u expect from him. The same crap that locals didnt fight it was tribals.
Btw does he even know how to say qabaili? What is qabali.

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## Joe Shearer

engineer saad said:


> _You may not be good at fighting, but you are very good at myth-making.
> _
> 1. If we are not good at fighting then why British selected 80,000 poonchians to fight World war 2 and awarded military cross to our tirbesman.? These ex british army ww2 veterans with their personal struggle initiated rebellion against Dogra rulers.without any external help.



You. Not they.
_




It's on record. From both American and Pakistani sources. Maybe they are nuts. But they are not your kind of sentimentalist, mooning over totally false information received as grandmother's tales, and believing them to be the truth.

Click to expand...

_


> 2. "My research says in 1947 there were 50,000 Poonchis who had served in the British Army. Poonch was one of the major recruiting grounds for the British. These people would always think of themselves as fighters. There were no economic opportunities and inadequate landholdings in this area. So, most of them fought alongside the British, unlike Kashmiri Muslims, who had enough land to till and were involved in economic activities. *Poonchis had military and combat skills.* Although the Maharaja’s forces disarmed them, they went across the border to arms manufacturers in North-West Frontier Province and Dera Ismail Khan in Pakistan. They had a lot of local support; they managed to liberate their own area, defeated the Dogra army and even captured their arms."
> *Christopher Snedden's interview.*



You don't really mind contradicting yourself, do you?

First you say that the qabailis handed over their superior weapons to the Poonchis to fight their rebellion.

Then you quote Christopher Snedden to the effect that arms came from the NWFP and from Dera Ismail Khan.

And all the time, we also have Akbar Khan's testimony that the Pakistan Army handed over 4,000 rifles to the Poonchis.

Make up your mind. But then, in order to do that, you would have to be capable of distinguishing between fact and fiction.


_



The tribals were not using home-made rifles, they were using military issue weapons.

Click to expand...

_


> 3. If they were using issued weapons from Pakistan Army then where were their own weapons?



This is as stupid as it gets.
Their own arms? At home,where they belonged.
When they were getting better guns from Army surplus supplies, why would they use their own village-made guns to fight?

_



Have you even bothered to read the document? Read it. First, it did not include Jammu. Jammu already belonged to the Dogras. Second, it included all that part of Kashmir that had been ceded to the British by the Lahore Durbar. That included the Vale.

Click to expand...

_


> 4. Poonch was princely state it was not a part of Jammu and Kashmir. Yes you can desire.



You really need to think before you write.

How could they be in rebellion against the Maharaja and his forces if they were not part of Jammu and Kashmir? You quoted Snedden; here is Snedden on the subject:

"In 1947, people in Jammu Province engaged in three major actions that divided Jammu and Kashmir and confirmed that the princely state was not deliverable in its entirety to India or Pakistan. The first was a pro-Pakistan, anti-Maharaja uprising by Muslim Poonchis in western Jammu that 'liberated' large parts of this area from the Maharaja's control. ......Each was initiated, and then largely undertaken, by J&K state subjects - local people of J&K who ha a legtimate right to be in the princely state."

That should make it clear to even the most dense. But sometimes even this direct, blunt evidence fails; let us hope and pray.

_



Of course they did. They were heroes and ten feet tall.

Click to expand...

_


> _ 5. Yes we are taller than Gorkhas.
> 
> And what is the point you are trying to make? That the Poonchis were alone? In spite of Akbar Khan's comments about the help that Pakistan gave the malcontents?_
> 
> 
> 6. Akbar Khan i am listening his name first time being a cloase relative of General Aziz Khan i will more trust local veterans.



Actually, your opinion and your trust really does not matter. The world goes by concrete evidence, not by your gossip and anecdote. And the concrete evidence, corroborated by the identity of various independent sources, is that the Poonch uprising was supported and assisted by Maj. Gen. Akbar Khan, acting under his nom de guerre of General Tariq.

_



Again, what is the point of that statement?

Click to expand...

_


> 7. Hassan Jural was close friend and veteran of Poonch rebellion. While we are trying to capture Rajouri he turned towards his native village in GB for rebellion.
> 
> Bravo.
> @waz





Shamain said:


> U didnt wnt to say 48 but 47. The weirdo went into seizure like fit over wrong year's mention.
> Secondly, the rebellion in 1832 was against gulab singh rule. Dogra rule of entire state starts from 1846.
> 
> Rest let him cry clutching onto his own version of history which is typical stuff propagated by indians. He is an indian..whatelse u expect from him. The same crap that locals didnt fight it was tribals.
> Btw does he even know how to say qabaili? What is qabali.



Er, yes, a year does make a difference. And he didn't seem to know the difference. Secondly, the Gulab Singh that you mention was the same Dogra who ruled the state of Jammu and Kashmir from 1846 as a subordinate of the British Crown. Earlier, he ruled Poonch as a suzerain from 1836, not from 1832; in 1832, Poonch was under a separate Dogra chieftain, distantly related to Gulab Singh's family. The rebellion happened in 1832; neither Gulab Singh nor the Jammu Durbar was in the picture at that date.


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## Burhan Wani

Shamain said:


> U didnt wnt to say 48 but 47. The weirdo went into seizure like fit over wrong year's mention.
> Secondly, the rebellion in 1832 was against gulab singh rule. Dogra rule of entire state starts from 1846.
> 
> Rest let him cry clutching onto his own version of history which is typical stuff propagated by indians. He is an indian..whatelse u expect from him. The same crap that locals didnt fight it was tribals.
> Btw does he even know how to say qabaili? What is qabali.


It is a common sence we started rebellion in year 18 october 1947, and formed Governement 24 october 1947.
How can it possible that someone started travelling from FATA can reach AJK so quickly. 
He said Pakistan Army provided them arms and Ammunation. 
It is a part of Mehsud,Afridis and Wazirs tradition to hold rifle just like a part of their body. They have local arms factories at their homes, even they provided rifles to PA as well.
Gulab SIngh was a junior ranked officer at Ranjit Singh's army, he overthrowed Sikhs rule and formed his own Dogra rule.



Joe Shearer said:


> Er, yes, a year does make a difference. And he didn't seem to know the difference. Secondly, the Gulab Singh that you mention was the same Dogra who ruled the state of Jammu and Kashmir from 1846 as a subordinate of the British Crown. Earlier, he ruled Poonch as a suzerain from 1836, not from 1832; in 1832, Poonch was under a separate Dogra chieftain, distantly related to Gulab Singh's family. The rebellion happened in 1832; *neither Gulab Singh nor the Jammu Durbar was in the picture at that date.*


Gulab singh was in Ranjit Singhs' army. 
Enlist your questions with effective evidence. I will not allow you to insult my veterans and heroes like this. 
Your every post try to insult me as well as my tribemen.
1. Poonch was a princely state and it was not a part of Jammu and Kashmir. If i am wrong then prove it.

2. Initially we fought with our own resources and formed Gvt Azad kAshmir and our own president. Later Pakistan Army and tribemen got involvement only to liberate other areas, like Rajouri, Srinagar, etc. If not then proove.

3. At that time Pakistan Army Chief was British he denied to provide support to Azad Kashmir Regular Forces, thatswhy Quaid Azam requested FATA tibes to help AKRF with their own home made rifles .303 Le Enfield.

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## Joe Shearer

engineer saad said:


> It is a common sence we started rebellion in year 18 october 1947, and formed Governement 24 october 1947.



<sigh>

There is no cure for ignorance.

Back to Snedden, since you appear to have heard of no one else.

"Anti-Maharaja activity possibly commenced as early as February 1947, and almost certainly was occurring by June 1947.....A press note issued on 12th September by the J&K Government confirms this campaign: 'Early in August in....Poonch Jagir, evilly disposed persons launched a violent agitation against the administration of the jagir in favour of civil disobedience and No Tax campaign'.

History is not common sense. History is fact. Christopher Snedden, whom you yourself have quoted, is fact.



> How can it possible that someone started travelling from FATA can reach AJK so quickly.



From February (or maybe June) to October is not sufficient time?



> He said Pakistan Army provided them arms and Ammunation.
> It is a part of Mehsud,Afridis and Wazirs tradition to hold rifle just like a part of their body. They have local arms factories at their homes, even they provided rifles to PA as well.



No.
Not in this case.
They were specifically and consciously armed by Pakistan. Read Margaret Bourke-White. She explodes the myth of 'local arms factories' providing this weaponry.



> Gulab SIngh was a junior ranked officer at Ranjit Singh's army, he overthrowed Sikhs rule and formed his own Dogra rule.



Yeah, right.

What an historical genius you are.

Until the downfall of the Lahore Durbar, Gulab Singh remained a functionary of that Durbar. He was not a junior officer at all; he was made Raja of Jammu by Ranjit Singh in 1822, after his father, Kishore Singh, died. Kishore Singh, and his family, were kinsmen of the last independent Raja of Jammu, Jit Singh. Dogra rule hardly started in 1842, or after Ranjit Singh's death; it was present from before the Sikh Empire, it was made a subordinate principality by the Sikh

Between 1831 and 1839, he was awarded several jagirs, including Jhelum, Rohtas and Gujarat. I don't know how you got this story of his being a junior officer of the Sikh Army (he was one, right at the very outset of his career, on first joining the Sikh forces). On Ranjit Singh's death, he was a minister at the highest level; meanwhile, from four years prior to that, from 1835 onwards, even under the Sikh Empire, Gulab Singh's general had conquered Kargil, the remainder of Ladakh which was unconquered, and Baltistan.

It was after the defeat of the Sikhs by the British that he took steps to buy up the portions of the Lahore Durbar's domain that had been ceded to the British.



engineer saad said:


> It is a common sence we started rebellion in year 18 october 1947, and formed Governement 24 october 1947.
> How can it possible that someone started travelling from FATA can reach AJK so quickly.
> He said Pakistan Army provided them arms and Ammunation.
> It is a part of Mehsud,Afridis and Wazirs tradition to hold rifle just like a part of their body. They have local arms factories at their homes, even they provided rifles to PA as well.
> Gulab SIngh was a junior ranked officer at Ranjit Singh's army, he overthrowed Sikhs rule and formed his own Dogra rule.






> Gulab singh was in Ranjit Singhs' army.



So? He was not in charge of Poonch at that stage. He only was gifted this territory as a jagir, without displacing the existing Dogra ruler there, another subordinate of Ranjit Singh, in 1836. 



> Enlist your questions with effective evidence. I will not allow you to insult my veterans and heroes like this.
> Your every post try to insult me as well as my tribemen.



Your ignorance is a sufficient insult to them. You do not take any trouble to find the facts, but just make wild statements and then expect sympathy. For every single thing that I have said, I have quoted historical authorities. 



> 1. Poonch was a princely state and it was not a part of Jammu and Kashmir. If i am wrong then prove it.



Very simple; if it was a princely state, why did Snedden say it was part of J&K?

[quote}2. Initially we fought with our own resources and formed Gvt Azad kAshmir and our own president. Later Pakistan Army and tribemen got involvement only to liberate other areas, like Rajouri, Srinagar, etc. If not then proove.[/quote]

Akbar Khan's book.



> 3. At that time Pakistan Army Chief was British he denied to provide support to Azad Kashmir Regular Forces, thatswhy Quaid Azam requested FATA tibes to help AKRF with their own home made rifles .303 Le Enfield.



There was no question of home-made rifles; the raiders were using mortars and light machine guns.

@engineer saad A piece of advice: don't get insulted; get educated and get informed. Being an engineer is a notable achievement. It does not make you an historian. You have to read, you have to see through deceptions and exaggerations, you have to be discriminating. Blind hero-worship is not history; it is just that, hero-worship.


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## The Eagle

Meanwhile.... are they all Pakistan's terrorists....?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/805869510758723584

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## Talwar e Pakistan

What happened to all those Indian fools that claimed 'Kashmir insurgency stopped after demonetization?


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## The Eagle

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1270560119689721


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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/831832898764419073


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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/832228717304881152


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## Talwar e Pakistan

More defections, their morale has really been low


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/865952140619124736


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## Islamic faith&Secularism




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## ghazi52



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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1036543167393394688


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## PDF

Pakistan’s UN Ambassador Maleeha Lodhi reacts to the latest in the Kashmir conflict and what it means for Pakistan’s role in Afghanistan.

Ongoing troubles with India in Kashmir threaten Pakistan's attention and considerable influence in a potential peace agreement aimed at ending an 18-year conflict involving U.S. and Taliban forces in Afghanistan, according to the Pakistani U.N. ambassador.

“The current crisis between Pakistan and India will obviously mean that Pakistan will have to put its full focus on its eastern border and it could affect what it is trying to do on the front with Afghanistan,” Pakistan’s Permanent Representative to the United Nations, Maleeha Lodhi, told Fox News on Friday. “In other words, our full focus is going to be on the eastern frontier rather than the western front and that could affect the peace process. Our attention is going to be where we feel there is a military threat to us.”

And Pakistan believes that threat is from the Indian border, Lodhi emphasized.

“Both (Afghanistan) and (Kashmir) issues are important in their own right. But it is the eastern border, India, which has already attacked Pakistan. They sent planes into our territory. That’s a hot border,” she said. “Afghanistan is a different situation. We would like that war to end. But we don’t perceive a threat from our western border. It’s our eastern border that we perceive a threat.”



At the gates on the Pakistan side of the Indian border in Jammu and Kashmir, known as the "Line of Control" (LOC)(Fox News/Hollie McKay)

Pakistan on Friday fulfilled its pledge to hand over the Indian pilot who was downed amid the escalating military tensions between the two countries last week. Pakistan viewed the release as a “gesture of peace,” which they claim has not been reciprocated. Shelling and cross-border violence continued over the weekend, leaving at least eight dead.

“We are in the midst of a very tense situation, a very fraught situation,” Lodhi continued. "The Indian leadership is failing to respond to the Prime Minister's repeated gestures (for peace), which included the gesture of freeing and releasing the Indian pilot who was flying his plane to attack Pakistan."

VIOLENT CLASHES BETWEEN INDIA AND PAKISTAN LEAVE SIX CIVILIANS, TWO PAKISTANI SOLDIERS DEAD

The unrest in Kashmir was re-ignited on Feb. 14, after a suicide bombing killed more than 40 Indian paramilitary troops in Kashmir. India retaliated with airstrikes, and has made clear it will take an aggressive approach to combat terrorism in the disputed region.

Indian bombers on Tuesday struck a hilly area close to the Kashmir border, with New Delhi claiming to have killed an active militant training camp, where some 300 alleged terrorists were training. But Pakistan insists there were no camps in the area, and no evidence of casualties, other than an elderly villager believed to have been wounded.



Pakistan’s permanent representative to the United Nations, Maleeha Lodhi

Jammu and Kashmir is a picturesque terrain, framed by the Himalayan mountains. But it’s also a contentious and disputed region marred by a long history of bloodshed, four wars, frequent skirmishes, and a revived fear that tit-for-tat fighting between the two could lead to a nuclear showdown.

KASHMIRI RESIDENTS FEAR ESCALATING CYCLE OF VIOLENCE BETWEEN INDIA, PAKISTAN

The fight for Kashmir remains one of the longest-standing military conflicts in the world, dating back to 1947. After Hindu-majority India and Muslim-dominant Pakistan were granted independence from Britain, the two countries have battled for control of the disputed area.

Both countries today possess an arsenal of more than 100 nuclear warheads, raising concerns in the international community about what might happen if the situation between the two countries deteriorates.



Kashmiri children hold placards and shout freedom slogans in Srinagar, Indian controlled Kashmir, Friday, March 1, 2019. India has banned Jama'at-e-Islami, a political-religious group in Kashmir, in a sweeping and ongoing crackdown against activists seeking the end of Indian rule in the disputed region amid the most serious confrontation between India and Pakistan in two decades. (AP Photo/ Dar Yasin)

“The Kashmir dispute has been a frozen conflict for decades. They (India and Pakistan) are both to blame but in different ways,” said Parag Khanna, founding partner of FutureMap and author of “The Future is Asian.” “India for failing to credibly enfranchise and incorporate Kashmiris, Muslims or otherwise, and Pakistan for continuing to harbor Kashmiri separatist militants and fundamentalist groups for conducting cross-border attacks with impunity.”

Indian officials have for decades tried to suppress the separatist insurgency, which gained momentum in the late 1980s with the backing or at least the quiet acceptance of Pakistan, according to many observers in the international community. Pakistan has denied such accusations and consistently accuses India of committing mass human rights violations against the Kashmiri population.

India has asked Pakistan “over and over” to hand over actionable intelligence pointing to specific terrorist groups in the region. Some information has been passed along in recent days, and India is currently evaluating that information for certifiable proof of militant activity.

“But simply to hurl allegations because of your own failure is not a responsible way to act,” Lodhi charged. “Nor does it bring peace to our region.”

While analysts have contended progress in India-Pakistan relations would bolster Pakistan’s position in assisting the U.S.’s goal of squashing extremism in both Afghanistan and Pakistan and bring stability to the wider region, some Pakistan critics claim that Afghanistan’s peace process – which will likely entail a U.S troop withdrawal – could actually then put the militant’s spotlight back on India, and re-ignite a dangerous new phase of the old war.


An Indian army soldier walks past the wreckage of an Indian aircraft after it crashed in Budgam area, outskirts of Srinagar, Indian controlled Kashmir, Wednesday, Feb.27, 2019. (AP Photo/Mukhtar Khan)

According to many Afghan officials, “Kashmiri militants have always been recruited by Pakistan to fight against the government in Afghanistan,” which itself is to blame for prolonging the war. "If U.S. and NATO troops withdraw from Afghanistan, it will be a big victory for terrorism, and the condition in the Kashmir will worsen because then all the terrorist activities will be focused there,” contended Col. Ahmad Muslem Hayat, a former Afghan military attaché in London.



A spokesperson for the US State Department said Monday that the United States policy on Kashmir has not changed.

"The pace, scope, and character of any discussions on Kashmir is for the two sides to determine, but we support any and all positive steps India and Pakistan can take to forge closer relations," said the representative.

Representatives for India’s embassy and U.N. Mission, as well as those for Afghanistan, did not immediately respond to a request for comment.


https://www.foxnews.com/world/pakis...l-focus-could-impact-the-afghan-peace-process

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## Cobra Arbok

As of may 22, 2019, the Indian Army has killed 88 terrorists in Kashmir in less than five months(two of whom were killed minutes ago). That is definitely a world record.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1130471594231336960


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## Cobra Arbok

Four more millitants put down like animals
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nat...er-in-jammu-and-kashmirs-shopian-1994161.html

also, just heard news today of another militant biting the dust with another major search operation going on.


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## Cobra Arbok

One more militant put down in Anantnag

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1143930664833748992


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## Cobra Arbok

Another major operation underway in Anantnag. 1 militant put down, 2-3 more trapped.


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## Cobra Arbok

Another Kashmiri militant gets his 72 virgins

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1145511909594140672

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## ghazi52

*India tightens IHK lockdown over Muharram processions*







HELD SRINAGAR: Authorities on Sunday tightened a month-long security lockdown in Srinagar after breaking up religious processions by Muslims who defied a ban.

A military clampdown was imposed in Muslim-majority Kashmir from August 5 to prevent unrest as New Delhi revoked the disputed region’s autonomy, with mobile phone networks and the internet still cut off in all but a few pockets. Police drove around the city from early Sunday, announcing through loudhailers that "residents are informed not to venture out of their homes".

"Strict action under law would be taken against violators," they added. Most such processions have been banned in Indian Held Kashmir (IHK) since the outbreak of insurgency against New Delhi’s rule in 1989, on grounds that the rituals could be used to stoke anti-India sentiment.

At least two small protests were taken out on Sunday morning by between eight to 10 mourners, who were quickly detained and taken away in police vehicles. Police were also seen hitting the mourners with bamboo sticks. Witnesses said they saw at least six more similar protests, with police also detaining the participants. Locals said the processions have taken on a political aspect this year after India’s controversial autonomy decision.

On Saturday, four local journalists were injured while covering a protest involving up to 5,000 demonstrators, one of the biggest gatherings since the lockdown was imposed. One journalist said his camera lens was broken and another had visible marks on his body after he was allegedly hit with bamboo sticks by security personnel. Security forces also fired tear gas and live ammunition in the air.

Authorities had loosened the curfew in parts of held Srinagar gradually in recent weeks but began to enforce it again from Friday. Sunday’s clampdown was one of the tightest since August 5. While barricades had been manned by up to three paramilitary troopers, there were now up to 10.

Tensions could further heighten on Tuesday, which is Ashura, the climactic 10th day of Muharram. While the rituals are traditionally marked by Muslims in the valley, people said they would take part in processions on Tuesday to show solidarity with their fellow Muslims.

Meanwhile, routine life in Indian Held Kashmir (IHK) remained suspended, as the curfew and strict communication blockage on Sunday entered the 35th day. According to reports Indian forces had martyred 16 Kashmiris in the month of August and injured 467 with air-gun. Over 10,000 arrested have been booked under draconian law, Public Safety Act since the repeal of the special status of territory by the Indian government on August 05. Those detained under PSA include Hurriyat leaders, political workers, traders, lawyers, social activists, and youth.

Meanwhile, after getting a number of Twitter accounts blocked for raising voice for miserable Kashmiris, the Indian agencies are scanning over 3,500 Facebook and WhatsApp pages and groups, respectively. The authorities have also announced that no Muharram procession will be allowed in the occupied territory, fearing that these gatherings could turn into anti-India demonstrations


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## ghazi52

*We stand by Kashmiris, shall never disappoint them: COAS*

September 26, 2019







Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Qamar Bajwa reiterated on Thursday support to the Kashmiri cause saying “we stand with our Kashmiri brothers and sisters and shall never disappoint them.”

The statement was made during interaction with students and faculty of various educational institutions of Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK), members of Youth Parliament Pakistan and members of Youth State Assembly of AJK at the ISPR headquarters in Rawalpindi, the military’s media wing said.

Addressing the AJK youth, the army chief said Kashmir was “part and parcel of our soul” having an emotional bond and not restricted to geography alone.


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## BATMAN

Reality of Pakistan side Kashmir, beyond speeches and blasphemy madness.

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## ejaz007

*Kashmiris down shutters, shun schools in 'acts of defiance'*
Over 70 days since India revoked Kashmir's autonomy shops remain shut and schools are empty as part of 'silent protest'.

19 hours ago





A man rides a scooter in front of a closed shop in Srinagar [Faisal Khan/Anadolu]
*MORE ON KASHMIR*

Kashmiri children among prisoners in India crackdown2 days ago
Pakistan says three civilians killed by Indian firing in Kashmir2 days ago
Indian forces exchange fire with armed rebels in Kashmir: Police2 days ago
Kashmir under lockdown: All the latest updates3 days ago
Srinagar, Indian-administered Kashmir - Shabir Ahmad shutters his shop at 9:30am every day, clocking just two hours of work, as part of an ongoing "civil disobedience movement" in Indian-administered Kashmir against the stripping of the region's autonomy.

In the last four days, Shabir, who sells curtains and bedsheets, has not earned a single penny, but the 60-year-old shopkeeper insists the "silent protest" by traders is important "for the future of their children".

"Our lives are finished now and we fear for the tomorrow of our children," he told Al Jazeera as he sat in his shop located in the heart of old Srinagar's Nowhatta area that has been the epicentre of clashes between the youth and Indian armed forces.

"All means of protest for us have been choked and this is the only way to resist."

Traders in the region have been running their businesses for just two hours from 7:30am to 9:30am as a mark of protest against the Indian government's decision on August 5 to scrap Article 70 of the constitution that granted special rights to the Muslim-majority region.

The near-total shutdown of businesses, schools and civilian activity in the disputed region has forced the government to take out full-page ads in local newspapers, urging people to open their shops and send their children to school.

The advertisement heading read "Closed shops, no public transport? Who benefits?" It asked people to make a choice. However, it had little impact on the ground, as people continued the shutdown "as an act of defiance".

READ MORE
*Will India's crackdown in Kashmir fuel further violence?*
The authorities on Monday restored the postpaid mobile phone services which nearly 1.8 million people have access to in the region of nearly seven million people.

But the internet blackout and ban on prepaid phones continue to be in place keeping people cut off from the outside world for more than 70 days now.

While Shabir says he has been able to earn $100 since August 5, the mobile store adjacent to his shop run by Jalees Ahmad, 45, has had no sales at all amid the unprecedented phone restrictions.

The authorities arrested thousands of separatist leaders, protesters and pro-Indian Kashmiri politicians in the wake of the August 5 decision and brought thousands of additional troops to one of the most militarised zones in the world.

Tens of thousands of people have died as India deployed nearly half a million troops to quell an armed rebellion that erupted in the late 1980s. Fatalities sharply dropped in the 2000s but since the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) came to power more than five years ago, the region has seen an uptick in violence.

The abrogation of Article 370 was one of the main poll planks of Prime Minister Narendra Modi, whose BJP is opposed to autonomy given to Kashmir as part of its "one nation, one constitution" vision.

Rights groups say hundreds of those arrested, including minors and patients with terminal illnesses, have been booked under the Public Safety Act (PSA), a controversial law under which a person can be held for up to two years without bail.

While most of the shopkeepers are distressed due to the losses, many are equally resolved to carry on their "protest".

"Our protest is part of our freedom struggle which we are fighting since 30 years, where thousands of people have been killed and blinded," says salesman Jalees sitting at his shop waiting for customers.

Like Shabir, Jalees too has to pay the shop rent. He has to cover the education of his children and support his family which would cost him his entire monthly salary of approximately $300. But they are ready to "suffer the losses".

"This is the Muslim-majority land but we fear this all will change," said another shopkeeper who wished to remain anonymous.

"If police sees us talking to journalists, they might come to pick us up in the evening. There is only fear among people who have been crushed from all sides," he said. 

Kashmir farmers struggle from India restrictions (2:05)


*'Threats by militants'*
The region's police chief, Dilbagh Singh, told Al Jazeera that armed rebels were targeting people who were trying to resume their normal work.

He said that the latest target was a 45-year-old non-local truck driver from the state of Rajashthan who was shot dead in south Kashmir's Shopian district on Monday evening when he was loading apples in his truck.

"There were militants and their overground workers who were spreading posters and threatening shopkeepers and farmers," the official said adding that they have launched crackdown on the network of overground workers of armed groups and arrested 20 people.

The police official said that the incidents of threats have particularly surfaced in southern Kashmir districts where rebels are active.

*'UN has failed all'*
Indian Prime Minister Modi sold the move as a way to bring development to the region but since the lockdown was placed in August, the apple industry - the lifeblood of the economy involving nearly half of the state's population - has suffered.

Tourism and handicraft sectors have also been hit hard as tourist inflow almost stopped amid precarious security situation.

Abdul Ahad, who works as a tourist driver alleged that the government is "bringing workers of the BJP" to Kashmir and "presenting them as tourists".

"They are busy in showing tourism is returning back [to normalcy] through their propaganda media. Their democracy in Kashmir is based on lies. They lie every day," he said while puffing on a cigarette.

Like the shopkeepers, school and college students in the region too have stayed away from their classes. The annual board exams are nearing but the students have not completed their syllabus. 

READ MORE
*In Pictures: Night raids, arrests amid Kashmir lockdown*
"Our parents groom us for 10-15 years. We study, work hard, secure distinctions but one day we are hit with a bullet suddenly. What is our future? Why should we worry about schools when we are not sure about our future," said Bisma Shafi, a 25-year-old college student.

"What does education mean in such [a] situation, when our lives are at an edge, when kids are jailed and tortured?" asked Shafi.

After August 19, when the curfew was lifted in Kashmir, the government announced the opening of educational institutions but the students have stayed away as parents fear for the safety of their children.

A college professor in the main city of Srinagar told Al Jazeera that they were being asked by authorities to "motivate students to attend classes in uniforms".

"They want us to give students projects, force them to come for exams but we don't want to do that because it is not a normal situation," the college professor told Al Jazeera on the conditions of anonymity.

Many residents also expressed their disappointment with the global human rights organisations and the United Nations.

"What is United Nations doing?" asked Sameed Ahmad, 31, who works in the Middle East and has come to Kashmir to attend his sister's wedding.

"It [the UN] has not done anything for the oppressed people of the world. It has failed [us] all," he said.

SOURCE: AL JAZEERA NEWS

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019...un-schools-acts-defiance-191017052431237.html


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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199235364663316480


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## jarves

Hi,
Did something happen to the forum? It seems that a lot of threads and posts have been deleted. I can't seem to find a lot of threads that were present 2 to 3 months ago.


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## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=257191465440173


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## Trailer23

My first post on this Thread 'cause it just got unlocked for me...

Some may have already seen it...


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## BHarwana

Srinagar:

Indian UAV spotted at Srinagar Airbase.

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## BHarwana

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1256544451763322880

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## PDF

*Ban on high-speed internet not proving enough to prevent rising violence in Kashmir*

*Officials involved with counter-insurgency in Jammu and Kashmir are concerned about rising violence in the Union territory.*
Azaan Javaid 4 May, 2020 2:54 pm IST
   






A file photo of Indian security forces in Jammu and Kashmir. Photo: Praveen Jain/ThePrint


*Srinagar:* The Jammu and Kashmir government has justified the ban on high-speed internet in the Union territory citing the low number of terror related incidents. But the security establishment in the Union territory is anticipating a “hot summer” as the ban won’t be able to effectively contain the numbers.

Speaking to ThePrint on condition of anonymity, several officials involved with counter-insurgency expressed concern over the rising violence in the region over the last few weeks. They said the ban on high-speed internet won’t change Pakistan-backed militant strategy for this year.

This comes even as five security force personnel, including two Army officers, were killed in an encounter in Handwara Saturday.


The officials also expect the insurgency to increase in the north Kashmir region for the first time since the encounter of Hizbul Mujahideen commander Burhan Wani in 2016. The northern region had seen relatively lower insurgent activities in the past decade as compared to south Kashmir.

The comments come after the J&K government Wednesday responded to a petition filed in the Supreme Court to seek restoration of 4G internet service in J&K. In its response, the government said “108 terrorist related incidents” took place between August 2019 and April.

In the comparative period between August 2018 and April 2019, there were more than 450 such incidents. The numbers stood at around 300, 200 and 160 in the same period for the three years prior to that, the officials told ThePrint.


Terrorism related violence includes encounters, terror attacks, civilian killings, grenade attacks, abductions and so on, according to police.

The number of incidents fell after August 2019 when the J&K administration enforced a communications blackout and a clampdown on movement. It was followed by months of shutdown by Kashmir residents who were opposing the Modi government’s decision to scrap the erstwhile state’s special status (Article 370).


*Why the number of incidents fell*
According to senior police officers in Jammu and Kashmir, a change in terror strategy and the lockdown enforced ahead of scrapping of Article 370 were major factors behind the reduced levels of violence last year.

They pointed out that recruitment of local militants and infiltration of foreign terrorists didn’t see any fall during the lockdown.

“The militants used the post-August quiet to regroup and recruit. However, they have not been able to, or decided not to carry out any major attack in the Valley or beyond,” said a senior police officer, before adding a caveat.

“Although the decrease in violence coincided with the communication blackout and the subsequent increase in violence, what we are witnessing now is happening when all communication channels, barring high speed internet, are functional. It doesn’t mean that reducing internet speeds will change the 2020 militant strategy backed by Pakistan,” said the officer who didn’t wish to be named.

ThePrint had reported last month how security officials saw emergence of new militant outfits in Kashmir as the start of a “violent campaign”, which existing terror groups such as the Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Mohammad couldn’t undertake amid growing international scrutiny over them.


In the apex court, the J&K administration said that of the 108 incidents in these eight months, 99 were reported from Kashmir and 9 from Jammu.

It added, “30 civilians lost their lives, while 114 civilians were injured in terrorist related incidents. 20 security forces personnel were martyred and 54 SF personnel were injured. 76 terrorists were killed apart from the arrest of 132 terrorists/ suspects.”

However, since 25 March, when a nationwide lockdown was imposed, 57 persons have been killed in Kashmir, including 31 militants, seven civilians, six CRPF men and two J&K police personnel.

The deaths also included five Army personnel killed in a close combat in the first week of April in Keran sector in north Kashmir’s Kupwara. Among the six slain CRPF men were three who were killed by a lone terrorist in an attack in Sopore, believed to be from the newly floated militant outfit, The Resistance Front.

“We suspect that militant groups will continue to escalate violence in the coming months,” said a counter insurgency official posted in south Kashmir.

“There are few concern areas, one being that despite infiltration reported last year, there haven’t been many encounters in which foreigners have been killed. This means that the FT’s (foreign terrorists) are not moving, which in turn could mean more recruitment of local boys and of impending attacks,” said the official on condition of anonymity.

*Pellet injuries*
The security establishment is also concerned about resurgence in stone pelting incidents at encounter sites, mostly aimed at either protesting the presence of security forces or helping the militants flee by sabotaging the encounter.

According to two senior police officers, after several months, April recorded the first pellet injuries during a protest near an encounter.

“Seven to eight people received pellet injuries in an encounter in Shopian’s Melhora area last week. Another woman received a bullet injury during one such encounter in south Kashmir last month,” said a third police officer who didn’t wish to be named.

“Because most of the encounters in the past eight months were brief, scope of subsequent violent protests was less but in some encounters now, we have been witnessing stone pelting incidents,” said the officer.

“One reason for the stone pelting could be the authorities decision to bury unidentified local militants in graveyards other than those in their native villages,” said the counter insurgency official quoted above.

Last month, J&K police buried people they said were unidentified terrorists killed in encounters at a graveyard designated to bury foreign terrorists. Kashmiri families later turned up to claim the bodies, causing tensions in several parts of south Kashmir, particularly Shopian.

*‘Hot summer’*
The third police officer said the security establishment was now bracing for a “hot summer”, a speculation amplified by reports of “missing youth”.

“We have been getting reports of several youth missing in Pulwama, Shopian and Kulgam. We are ascertaining whether they have joined militant ranks or not,” said the officer, adding that it seemed terror groups would likely escalate violence in parts of northern Kashmir this year.

The insurgency in north Kashmir had remained a low-scale affair after the encounter of Burhan Wani. This might change.

“In Sopore we have reports of 10-12 militants getting active past month. They include Pakistani nationals,” the officer added.

https://theprint.in/india/ban-on-hi...to-prevent-rising-violence-in-kashmir/413916/

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## PDF

I wonder why in the struggle in Kashmir, people don't use firebombing and Molotov cocktail? Surely, it would better than throwing stones at _armoured_ vehicles...

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## PDF

Childhood in #Kashmir. Having your home razed to the ground, looking for your notebook. Photo:
@FirdousQadriph1


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258316748844969984
*India uses coronavirus pandemic to exploit human rights in Kashmir *
The United Nations has called for an immediate global ceasefire to “put armed conflict in lockdown” and focus on protecting the most vulnerable from the spread of COVID-19. Yet tragically, there are cases around the world where violations have occurred.

Ongoing developments in Kashmir include a crackdown on Kashmiri journalists, rising policing powers and enhanced curfew measures. These actions suggest that the Indian government may be exploiting the pandemic to accelerate its settler-colonial ambitions in the disputed territory.





Indian paramilitary soldiers guard at a closed market in Srinagar, Indian-occupied Kashmir, Aug. 21, 2019. (AP Photo/Mukhtar Khan)
For the past six years, I have worked as a researcher along the Line of Control (LoC) — the de-facto border that divides Kashmir into India and Pakistan. I am also on the board of directors for the advocacy organization, Canadians for Peace and Justice in Kashmir.

Thousands of Kashmiris live within a 10-kilometre radius of the LoC, which is so heavily militarized that it is visible from space.

Kashmiris are vulnerable to both the contagion and the violence of the ongoing conflict.

*War during a pandemic*
In April, the Indian army set up artillery weapons deep in Kashmiri villages, as far as 60 kilometres from bunkered areas, to launch long-distance fire on Pakistan-controlled Kashmir.

This encroachment is creating widespread panic and anxiety. Locals are protesting the shifting of heavy artillery guns into their communities, fearing retaliatory fire from the Pakistani army.

It is an intentional strategy to station soldiers and artillery among communities to make it difficult for the Pakistani army to retaliate. The blurring of civilian and military targets amounts to a war crime.

The Indian army has used civilian populations as a human shield before. In 2017, footage emerged of a Kashmiri man tied to a military vehicle patrolling a Kashmiri town.

As Indian and Pakistani forces continue to exchange fire, widespread loss of civilian life and property is being reported on both sides of the LoC.





An underground community bunker in Neelum valley, Pakistan-controlled Kashmir. (Nusrat Jamal), Author provided
During the exchange of cross-border fire, families are forced to take shelter in community bunkers. These are small enclosed spaces that make social distancing practices impossible to follow.

Furthermore, people trying to escape their villages during bombardment are prevented from leaving by the police as they enforce COVID-19 lockdown measures.

*Asia’s Berlin Wall*
The LoC, also known as Asia’s Berlin Wall, does not constitute a legally recognized international boundary. It was put in place in 1949 as a temporary measure until the status of Kashmir is resolved.

In her book _Body of Victim, Body of Warrior_, Cabeiri deBergh Robinson, associate professor of South Asian studies at the University of Washington, explains that in earlier years, the LoC was permeable and fluid. It was only after the Simla Agreement in 1972, that it came to mimic the impermeability of a border.





In this Oct. 4, 2016 photo, Indian army soldiers patrol near the highly militarized Line of Control dividing Kashmir between India and Pakistan, in Pallanwal, Indian-occupied Kashmir. (AP Photo/Channi Anand) (AP Photo/Channi Anand)
*‘100 little sleeps’*
From 1990-2003, during the peak of the Kashmiri insurgency, the LoC was a site of intense conflict between Indian and Pakistani militaries.

Armies fired long-range artillery and mortar shells at each other, killing and harming civilians, property and livestock in the process.

Even though a shaky ceasefire was reached in 2003, skirmishes flare up unannounced.

During my research in the Neelum valley in Pakistan-controlled Kashmir, a villager described living near the LoC: “We are never at ease. The firing can start at any time. It’s like having 100 little sleeps every night.”

The number of civilians killed on each side of the LoC is challenging to document, given a lack of government transparency.

The United Nations Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP) is responsible for monitoring the ceasefire. India stands accused of blocking UNMOGIP’s access to the LoC.

This year alone, India has committed 882 ceasefire violations.

*Pre-existing inequality*
Pandemics do not occur in a vacuum but exacerbate pre-existing inequalities.

Kashmir is ill-prepared to handle the pandemic. In Indian-occupied Kashmir, there is one soldier for every nine people but only one ventilator for every 71,000 people, and one doctor for every 3,900 people.

Health facilities along the LoC are severely deficient, reflecting India and Pakistan’s neglect of the sub-region.

Given the current suspension of high-speed 4G internet, Kashmiris are prevented from accessing necessary public health information needed to slow the spread of COVID-19.

Internet and telecommunication services are restricted on both sides of the LoC.

*Kashmir’s annexation*
Amid the pandemic, on Mar. 31, India introduced a new domicile law. This is one of the many legislative changes set by India following the unilateral abrogation of Article 370 in August last year.

The domicile law paves the way for demographic flooding in Kashmir, which will allow non-Kashmiris to obtain property, compete for government jobs and impact the outcomes of a referendum on Kashmir’s future should it be held.

Demographic flooding as a colonial strategy has been used by Israel along the West Bank as well as China in the Xinjiang autonomous region.

*A Kashmir yet to come*
The pandemic has inspired thinking on the complete restructuring of our world. It has shed light on the centrality of care workers and those at the forefront of our food systems.





Kashmiri men ride a shikara, a traditional gondola, to catch fish in the interiors of the Dal Lake in Srinagar, Indian-occupied Kashmir, April 25, 2020. (AP Photo/Dar Yasin)
It is forcing us to imagine “a world we do not yet know and cannot describe” as scholar Vafa Ghazavi recently wrote.

A just world won’t emerge as if by magic. We will need to fight for it.

The LoC does not signal the closure of Kashmir’s forms and futures. It is a site of potentiality, for a Kashmir yet to come.

This Kashmir would not be held back by the paucity of our imagination or the lack of available language. It would be a Kashmir where Kashmiris can freely choose learning, laughter and living.

https://theconversation.com/india-u...mic-to-exploit-human-rights-in-kashmir-137682

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## ejaz007

*India, Pakistan Engage in Mortar Shelling, Firefight at Border*

© AFP 2020 / AAMIR QURESHI
WORLD
11:27 GMT 25.06.2020Get short URL
112
Subscribe


New Delhi (Sputnik): India and Pakistan, at odds over Jammu and Kashmir since independence, have been accusing each other of constant ceasefire violations across the Line of Control (LoC). While India claimed that Pakistan has violated the ceasefire over 2,000 times in 2020, Islamabad accused New Delhi of breaking the pact over 957 times.

Pakistan resorted to firing mortars and other weapons after it initiated an unprovoked ceasefire violation in Jammu and Kashmir's border in the Machhal Sector, India's Army claimed today, confirming that India is retaliating against the fire as well.

"Pakistan violates ceasefire in Machhal Sector, Kupwara (J&K). On 25 Jun 2020, in the afternoon hours, Pakistan initiated an unprovoked ceasefire violation (CFV) along the LoC in Machhal Sector by firing Mortars and other weapons. Befitting response is being given", stated the Indian Army's Chinar Corps infantry field formation. 
Earlier, on 22 June, an Indian soldier was killed following a number of ceasefire violations by Pakistan which hit several sectors along the Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu and Kashmir.

At least four civilians and a soldier in India have been killed in different incidents of ceasefire violations this week in the Jammu and Kashmir region. Pakistan also claimed that four civilians were killed in Indian fire on 18 June, while a 13-year-old girl was killed on 21 June. 

Over the last few weeks, India and Pakistan have been involved in several ceasefire violations in which soldiers and civilians from both countries have been killed, while a lot of property has been damaged.

The diplomatic ties between New Delhi and Islamabad have deteriorated since August 2019, when India stripped Jammu and Kashmir, to which Pakistan also lays claim, of its special status. Earlier this week, the two countries decided to cut the diplomatic staff by half in their high commissions in New Delhi and Islamabad.

https://sputniknews.com/world/20200...ngage-in-mortar-shelling-firefight-at-border/


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## PanzerKiel

Army JCO Killed in Firing Along LoC in Jammu & Kashmir’s Rajouri District – Indian Defence Research Wing







idrw.org





Army JCO Killed in Firing Along LoC in Jammu & Kashmir’s Rajouri District 

A Junior Commissioned Officer (JCO) of the Army was killed on Sunday in a firing incident along the Line of Control (LoC) in Rajouri district of Jammu and Kashmir, defence sources said. The firing from across the border started soon after the Army noticed some suspicious movement along the LoC in Nowshera sector, the sources said. They said the Indian troops retaliated strongly and in the exchange of firing, a JCO was hit by a bullet and later succumbed to injuries. The cross-border firing was going on when the last reports came in, the sources said, adding further details are awaited.

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## GHALIB

PDF said:


> Childhood in #Kashmir. Having your home razed to the ground, looking for your notebook. Photo:
> @FirdousQadriph1
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258316748844969984
> *India uses coronavirus pandemic to exploit human rights in Kashmir *
> The United Nations has called for an immediate global ceasefire to “put armed conflict in lockdown” and focus on protecting the most vulnerable from the spread of COVID-19. Yet tragically, there are cases around the world where violations have occurred.
> 
> Ongoing developments in Kashmir include a crackdown on Kashmiri journalists, rising policing powers and enhanced curfew measures. These actions suggest that the Indian government may be exploiting the pandemic to accelerate its settler-colonial ambitions in the disputed territory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian paramilitary soldiers guard at a closed market in Srinagar, Indian-occupied Kashmir, Aug. 21, 2019. (AP Photo/Mukhtar Khan)
> For the past six years, I have worked as a researcher along the Line of Control (LoC) — the de-facto border that divides Kashmir into India and Pakistan. I am also on the board of directors for the advocacy organization, Canadians for Peace and Justice in Kashmir.
> 
> Thousands of Kashmiris live within a 10-kilometre radius of the LoC, which is so heavily militarized that it is visible from space.
> 
> Kashmiris are vulnerable to both the contagion and the violence of the ongoing conflict.
> 
> *War during a pandemic*
> In April, the Indian army set up artillery weapons deep in Kashmiri villages, as far as 60 kilometres from bunkered areas, to launch long-distance fire on Pakistan-controlled Kashmir.
> 
> This encroachment is creating widespread panic and anxiety. Locals are protesting the shifting of heavy artillery guns into their communities, fearing retaliatory fire from the Pakistani army.
> 
> It is an intentional strategy to station soldiers and artillery among communities to make it difficult for the Pakistani army to retaliate. The blurring of civilian and military targets amounts to a war crime.
> 
> The Indian army has used civilian populations as a human shield before. In 2017, footage emerged of a Kashmiri man tied to a military vehicle patrolling a Kashmiri town.
> 
> As Indian and Pakistani forces continue to exchange fire, widespread loss of civilian life and property is being reported on both sides of the LoC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An underground community bunker in Neelum valley, Pakistan-controlled Kashmir. (Nusrat Jamal), Author provided
> During the exchange of cross-border fire, families are forced to take shelter in community bunkers. These are small enclosed spaces that make social distancing practices impossible to follow.
> 
> Furthermore, people trying to escape their villages during bombardment are prevented from leaving by the police as they enforce COVID-19 lockdown measures.
> 
> *Asia’s Berlin Wall*
> The LoC, also known as Asia’s Berlin Wall, does not constitute a legally recognized international boundary. It was put in place in 1949 as a temporary measure until the status of Kashmir is resolved.
> 
> In her book _Body of Victim, Body of Warrior_, Cabeiri deBergh Robinson, associate professor of South Asian studies at the University of Washington, explains that in earlier years, the LoC was permeable and fluid. It was only after the Simla Agreement in 1972, that it came to mimic the impermeability of a border.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In this Oct. 4, 2016 photo, Indian army soldiers patrol near the highly militarized Line of Control dividing Kashmir between India and Pakistan, in Pallanwal, Indian-occupied Kashmir. (AP Photo/Channi Anand) (AP Photo/Channi Anand)
> *‘100 little sleeps’*
> From 1990-2003, during the peak of the Kashmiri insurgency, the LoC was a site of intense conflict between Indian and Pakistani militaries.
> 
> Armies fired long-range artillery and mortar shells at each other, killing and harming civilians, property and livestock in the process.
> 
> Even though a shaky ceasefire was reached in 2003, skirmishes flare up unannounced.
> 
> During my research in the Neelum valley in Pakistan-controlled Kashmir, a villager described living near the LoC: “We are never at ease. The firing can start at any time. It’s like having 100 little sleeps every night.”
> 
> The number of civilians killed on each side of the LoC is challenging to document, given a lack of government transparency.
> 
> The United Nations Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP) is responsible for monitoring the ceasefire. India stands accused of blocking UNMOGIP’s access to the LoC.
> 
> This year alone, India has committed 882 ceasefire violations.
> 
> *Pre-existing inequality*
> Pandemics do not occur in a vacuum but exacerbate pre-existing inequalities.
> 
> Kashmir is ill-prepared to handle the pandemic. In Indian-occupied Kashmir, there is one soldier for every nine people but only one ventilator for every 71,000 people, and one doctor for every 3,900 people.
> 
> Health facilities along the LoC are severely deficient, reflecting India and Pakistan’s neglect of the sub-region.
> 
> Given the current suspension of high-speed 4G internet, Kashmiris are prevented from accessing necessary public health information needed to slow the spread of COVID-19.
> 
> Internet and telecommunication services are restricted on both sides of the LoC.
> 
> *Kashmir’s annexation*
> Amid the pandemic, on Mar. 31, India introduced a new domicile law. This is one of the many legislative changes set by India following the unilateral abrogation of Article 370 in August last year.
> 
> The domicile law paves the way for demographic flooding in Kashmir, which will allow non-Kashmiris to obtain property, compete for government jobs and impact the outcomes of a referendum on Kashmir’s future should it be held.
> 
> Demographic flooding as a colonial strategy has been used by Israel along the West Bank as well as China in the Xinjiang autonomous region.
> 
> *A Kashmir yet to come*
> The pandemic has inspired thinking on the complete restructuring of our world. It has shed light on the centrality of care workers and those at the forefront of our food systems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kashmiri men ride a shikara, a traditional gondola, to catch fish in the interiors of the Dal Lake in Srinagar, Indian-occupied Kashmir, April 25, 2020. (AP Photo/Dar Yasin)
> It is forcing us to imagine “a world we do not yet know and cannot describe” as scholar Vafa Ghazavi recently wrote.
> 
> A just world won’t emerge as if by magic. We will need to fight for it.
> 
> The LoC does not signal the closure of Kashmir’s forms and futures. It is a site of potentiality, for a Kashmir yet to come.
> 
> This Kashmir would not be held back by the paucity of our imagination or the lack of available language. It would be a Kashmir where Kashmiris can freely choose learning, laughter and living.
> 
> https://theconversation.com/india-u...mic-to-exploit-human-rights-in-kashmir-137682



things will settle down once people expelled from kashmir return , and more people getting domicile status and land to settle in kashmir .


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## PanzerKiel

*Two Indian Army personnel injured in LoC explosion*

Two Indian Army personnel, including a Major, were injured in an explosion along the Line of Control (LoC) in Nowshera sector of Jammu division’s Rajouri district on Thursday, officials said. 

“A major and a JCO (junior commissioned officer) were injured when they inadvertently stepped on to a landmine along the LoC in Nowshera sector on Thursday morning. They were on a patrol in a forward area,” said a defence official. 

The injured have been shifted to Command Hospital in Udhampur for treatment. They are stable, he added. Usually, landmines, which are light in weight, drift away during monsoon and pose a threat to the security personnel on patrol duty.






Two Indian Army personnel injured in LoC explosion – Indian Defence Research Wing







idrw.org

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## PanzerKiel

*Army officer among 3 personnel injured in Pak firing along LoC in Rajouri*

RAJOURI: *Three Army personnel including an officer *were injured Tuesday as Pakistani troops violated ceasefire by using heavy fire and mortar shells along the Line of Control in Rajouri district of Jammu and Kashmir, officials said. 

The Indian Army launched a befitting retaliation to the Pakistani firing and shelling in Sunderbani sector, they said. "Pakistan initiated the unprovoked ceasefire violation by firing with small arms and intense shelling with mortars. Some injuries have been reported (on our side)," a defence spokesman said, based on preliminary information. 

However, official sources said t*hree army personnel including an officer,* who were manning a forward post, were injured in the incident. The Pakistani army has also suffered casualties in the retaliatory action but the details are awaited, the sources said.










Army officer among 3 personnel injured in Pak firing along LoC in Rajouri - Jammu Links News


RAJOURI: Three Army personnel including an officer were injured Tuesday as Pakistani troops violated ceasefire by using heavy fire and mortar shells along the Line of Control in Rajouri district of Jammu and Kashmir, officials said.



www.jammulinksnews.com

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## Areesh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1312776320850358272


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## crankthatskunk

We shouldn't worry about Indian's tears and cries. 
Suicide or no suicide, what difference does it makes!!
Where are these Indians when innocent young Kashmiris are brutally killed by Indian forces regularly!!

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## Salza

This is really sad. These soldiers needs proper recognition regarding their deaths at loc due to Pakistani firing response. Atleast in this way it may calm their families with state honoring them but instead labeling their deaths as suicides is just pathetic. No matter how much Indian govt and their loser army hides their attrition rate due to Pakistani firing, truth always make their way out. This video just proved what I said.


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## Imran Khan

anyone killed by pakistani firing or freedom fighter's firing they make him incident and sucide . and they themselves blaming every country for hiding deaths . what a country india is


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## Rafi

It is sad that this young man has been denied the valour of being killed by his enemy, many many indian soldiers are killed by us, but politics deny them a soldiers death.


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## kingQamaR

lack of transparency or truth in Indian institutions they just do cover ups. regarding Pakistan & Kashmir killing there men


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## YeBeWarned

Convenience work in IA favors all the time ..


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## Areesh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1312776320850358272


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## Areesh

There is something seriously wrong about Indian army troops in IOK

These guys even kill their fellow soldiers and then name it suicide

Senior officers switch off their phones and refuse to talk to parents of dead soldier


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## masterchief_mirza

Lying individuals, lying institutions, a lying nation state. 

I can understand the hindutva types who revel in this behaviour like pigs wallowing in filth. 

What makes me laugh is the moderates and the educated liberals who think they live in a transparent, democratic nation on some par with Switzerland.

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## Mighty Lion

It was a suicide. They are just in denial (happens when someone is grieving).
No need to take their words at face value


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## masterchief_mirza

Mighty Lion said:


> No need to take their words at face value


Yes you're right. When Indians themselves don't take the words of grieving Indian parents at face value, why should we?

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## Areesh

masterchief_mirza said:


> Yes you're right. When Indians themselves don't take the words of grieving Indian parents at face value, why should we?



Yeah we should take a multiple ID rat @Mighty Lion on face value

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## FAROOQ RASHID BUTT

Has any person saved that video file of indian soldier's parent? That video has been deleted from its twitter account


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## Areesh

FAROOQ RASHID BUTT said:


> Has any person saved that video file of indian soldier's parent? That video has been deleted from its twitter account



Check this

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## Aspen

@The Eagle



> This is not a factual article but more of a propaganda and lies to downplay, defame & degrade Kashmir Struggle by dragging into an outfit from Syria. There will be no tolerance for disinformation & misleading regardless of source as such. Due to strategic nature and its implications, these attempts are made to divert from Kashmir freedom struggle and to brand the same with terrorism. Since the thread already existed of similar nature, there was no need to create another one. In-case of further grievances, please feel free to reach GHQ and post a detailed thread for review.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> 
> Itachi said:
> This seems unbelievable, especially since the sources are a Kurdish News Agency and a Greek one...
> 
> 
> 
> The Greek came like hand in glove with Indian mindset to propagate, undermine & defame Kashmir Freedom Struggle and brand it like some kind of terrorist movement and to deal accordingly. There's is no such thing happening except for Indian propaganda mouth pieces.
Click to expand...


I don't know from where you got the idea that SNA is a terrorist organization. SNA is Turkish backed division of TAF in Syria. You are confusing SNA with HTS or YPG or other organizations that are designated terrorist organizations but SNA is not one of those. SNA is one of the major power brokers in Syria that controls a large area of territory in Northern Syria. You are a moderator, you should know better than that and understand nuances of Syrian conflict and parties involved. It is wrong to assume that SNA are terrorists because nobody has ever claimed that.

SNA is a Turkish force that has successfully recaptured territory in Syria. Nobody is branding SNA as terrorists. To say that SNA units are being relocated from Syria to Kashmir is not defaming Kashmir freedom struggle, it is actually supporting Kashmir and making it stronger since SNA has a strong track record of success which is why Pakistan is even doing it in the first place. SNA will help Pakistan recapture IOK, what is so difficult to understand about this?


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## The Eagle

Aspen said:


> @The Eagle
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know from where you got the idea that SNA is a terrorist organization. SNA is Turkish backed division of TAF in Syria. You are a moderator, you should know better than that and understand nuances of Syrian conflict and parties involved. It is wrong to assume that SNA are terrorists because nobody has ever claimed that.
> 
> SNA is a Turkish force that has successfully recaptured territory in Syria. Nobody is branding SNA as terrorists. To say that SNA units are being relocated from Syria to Kashmir is not defaming Kashmir freedom struggle, it is actually supporting Kashmir and making it stronger which is why Pakistan is even doing it in the first place. SNA will help Pakistan recapture IOK, what is so difficult to understand about this?



I have clarified the position viz a viz Kashmir struggle. Any external division involved in Kashmir, as Indian Establishment is trying to peddle, will affect directly the Kashmir indigenous freedom struggle. An external fighting force will definitely undermine Kashmir struggle as India is trying to brand the same as such. As soon such propaganda is established, it will be no more of Kashmir freedom struggle but a ground being occupied by so & so groups. I didn't say that SNA is a terrorist organization etc but Kashmir struggle is different. May be it is difficult for you to understand but read carefully about Kashmir struggle for freedom and India's efforts to brand it being supported by external groups merely to create a reason for a larger military scale crackdown. There's no external party coming to Kashmir and that's it.

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## Aspen

The Eagle said:


> I have clarified the position viz a viz Kashmir struggle. Any external division involved in Kashmir, as Indian Establishment is trying to peddle, will affect directly the Kashmir indigenous freedom struggle. An external fighting force will definitely undermine Kashmir struggle as India is trying to brand the same as such. As soon such propaganda is established, it will be no more of Kashmir freedom struggle but a ground being occupied by so & so groups. I didn't say that SNA is a terrorist organization etc but Kashmir struggle is different. May be it is difficult for you to understand but read carefully about Kashmir struggle for freedom and India's efforts to brand it being supported by external groups merely to create a reason for a larger military scale crackdown. There's no external party coming to Kashmir and that's it.



@The Eagle 

It doesn't matter what India brands Kashmir as since they are going to brand Kashmiris as terrorists no matter what. Even if no SNA came to Kashmir, India would still claim external interference regardless of what happens. What India says should not affect Pakistan, we should do what is in the interest of Kashmir. If SNA can help, then they should help. Just because SNA is an external group does not mean we should be afraid to have them support Kashmir front. SNA has a strong record of success recapturing territory and it is highly possible that PA wants to exchange with SNA that has experience with this under modern scenarios. There is basically no difference between SNA and TAF anyway as they coordinate all the time. SNA is essentially taking orders straight from Ankara. If Pakistan is comfortable with Turkish Armed Forces and Azerbaijan forces, we should be comfortable with SNA forces as well as there is no difference. Recruiting people with real battle experience to win the war in Kashmir is more important than worrying about the optics of what India will think.


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## The Eagle

Aspen said:


> @The Eagle
> 
> It doesn't matter what India brands Kashmir as since they are going to brand Kashmiris as terrorists no matter what. Even if no SNA came to Kashmir, India would still claim external interference regardless of what happens. What India says should not affect Pakistan, we should do what is in the interest of Kashmir. If SNA can help, then they should help. Just because SNA is an external group does not mean we should be afraid to have them support Kashmir front. SNA has a strong record of success recapturing territory and it is highly possible that PA wants to exchange with SNA that has experience with this under modern scenarios. There is basically no difference between SNA and TAF anyway as they coordinate all the time. SNA is essentially taking orders straight from Ankara. If Pakistan is comfortable with Turkish Armed Forces and Azerbaijan forces, we should be comfortable with SNA forces as well as there is no difference. Recruiting people with real battle experience to win the war in Kashmir is more important than worrying about the optics of what India will think.



You are not trying to understand the aftermath of such a narrative or any outcome as such. This is not about what India claims but it is more about baseless claims that India now makes and then, there will be a case to built before International Forum which is not all your friend if you are seriously not going to put Kashmir freedom struggle in the harms way. As long as Kashmir locals keep beating the occupying forces; there's no point for anyone else to hold them responsible at all. The day other parties jumps in, there are many of others that wanted to step in Kashmir physically to help India. This is not just about this side but other party is also waiting for an opportunity. Since, SNA argument is not related, there is no point saying as such. If it has to be done in such a manners, I would rather wait for Taliban to establish an elected Government in Afghanistan. Try to look at other circumstances & implications. There's nothing as such being considered neither talked but it's just Indian lobby that keeps repeating the lies since many days.

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## PanzerKiel

*Special Forces’ Captain Ankit Gupta remains missing, search on at Jodhpur lake*
10 Para personnel initially tried to locate Captain Gupta but informed their seniors after they failed. Search operations were carried out throughout Friday with no luck.

Five rescue teams, including from the National Disaster Response Force (NDRF), continue to search for 10 Para (Special Forces) Captain Ankit Gupta, who drowned during a training exercise at Takhat Sagar Lake in Jodhpur on Thursday.

Captain Gupta is the commander of 10 Para Special Forces, which was selected as the best unit of the year (2020) in the Indian Army. As a part of a drill, he jumped from a helicopter into the Takhat Sagar reservoir on Thursday. Three other commandos also jumped with him, but Captain Ankit could not come out.

The army’s search operation in the lake started Thursday afternoon but had to be halted after dark.

“The teams of NDRF, SDRF, civil defence and army are continuously searching for the submerged captain, but he is still missing. As part of the exercise, some jawans jumped into the lake from the helicopter to improve their skills in rescuing drowned people,” said SHO Jaikishan Soni.


He added that 10 Para personnel initially tried to locate Captain Gupta but informed their seniors after they failed. Search operations were carried out throughout Friday with no luck.

During the exercise, the commandos of the 10 Para had to throw their boats in the water and jump from a helicopter.

“After this, they were to attack the enemy by riding on a boat. Under this mission, four commandos led by captain Ankit threw their boat first into the Takhat Sagar reservoir and then jumped into the water themselves. Three commandos reached the boat, but Captain Ankit could not. After waiting a bit, the commandos started searching for him,” said a senior police official from Jodhpur.

28-year-old Ankit, a resident of Gurugram, got married less than two months ago on November 23, 2020.

The unit, famously known as the Desert Scorpions, is among the most battle hardened units of the Indian Army. 









Special Forces’ Captain Ankit Gupta remains missing, search on at Jodhpur lake


10 Para personnel initially tried to locate Captain Gupta but informed their seniors after they failed. Search operations were carried out throughout Friday with no luck.




www.hindustantimes.com




*Two Army personnel injured in mine blast along LoC in Jammu and Kashmir's Poonch*



Two Army personnel were injured in a landmine blast along the Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu and Kashmir's Poonch district on Thursday, officials said.

The Army personnel were patrolling the forward area in Mankote sector when they accidentally stepped on an anti-personnel mine triggering explosion, they said.

The personnel suffered injuries and were hospitalised, they said.









Two Army personnel injured in mine blast along LoC in Jammu and Kashmir's Poonch


Two Army personnel were injured in a landmine blast along the Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu and Kashmir's Poonch district on Thursday, officials said. The Army personnel were patrolling the forward area in Mankote sector when they accidentally stepped on an anti-personnel mine triggering...



www.defencenews.in

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## ghazi52

Original cap badge of the Azad Kashmir Regular Force; 







This force did the bulk of the fighting in the 1947-48 War, and bled the most - 17 officers, 100 JCOs, and 2516 ORs gave their lives during the war. amongst the hundreds of gallantry awards received, 
There were 29 HJs and 1 NH.

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## ghazi52



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## Blacklight

Comments?

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## PanzerKiel

Maj Mayank Vishnoi of 44 RR, basically from Rajput Regiment, succumbs to his wounds he got on 27 August in an encounter with Kashmiri Freedom Fighters...he was shot in the head.

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## ghazi52

Pakistan's Azad Kashmir Regiment has the singular honour of having two female Sitara-i-Jurats, awarded for their bravery during 1947-48 Kashmir war.

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## ghazi52

Kohala Bridge was the only link over River Jhelum between Pakistan & Azad Kashmir in 1947-48 War. 
Capt. Timms was ordered to deploy a 40 mm Bofors for its protection.
Determined gun detachment shot down 2 Indian Tempest Fighter Bombers and Indian Air Force ran away and did not return.

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## ghazi52




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## FuturePAF

A new documentary coming out on Feb. 11 by a Russian-State Affiliated channel on the situation of Kashmir


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489630448225427461

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## ghazi52

.
Liaquat Ali Khan is briefed by "General Tariq" at the frontlines of Azad Kashmir, circa 1949.





......

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## ghazi52

,.,.,

24 اکتوبر 1947 کو ریاست آزاد کشمیر کے پہلے صدر مقام جنجال ہل پر قائم سیکرٹریٹ کا ایک منظر۔
بشکریہ: شاہد چوہدری شاہد






.,.,.,

English troops entering the city of Jammu in Kashmir are greeted by the local Muslims with posters painted on house walls before partition.







..,.

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## PanzerKiel

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1517387407875788801


----------

